# Zipp 404 vs Zipp 303



## outdoors-maniac (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm in the process of purchasing my first racing wheel set

I'm trying to decide which wheels would be better for over all racing conditions

the zipp 303 tubular set or the zipp 404 tubular set.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

404s by far.

More aero trumps lighter weight.

HTH,

M


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## blindzebra (Feb 15, 2007)

While it's true that more aero trumps lighter weight this won't be a factor if your are road racing in draft legal races. When drafting the added aerodynamics will prvide no benefit. Further the aero wheels take longer to spin up to speed and are less responsive in a sprint. Therefore if you are planning on road racing in a pack 404's would offer no benefit. 

However, if you see yourself on long breakaways or wanting a wheel that is useful for time trials the 404's are a good choice. Zipp has recommended uses for each wheel on it's website. You will see that the 303's are their recommeded road racing wheelset while 404's are recommended for time trials and triathlons.

One compromise you might consider is the Reynold's DV46T. It's not as deep section as the 404 but a good compromise between that and the 303.

Good luck!


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## allons-y (Nov 15, 2006)

also, the slightly heavier weight of the 404's means that in the pack where aero doesnt matter, the wheels hold speed better, meaning less work to keep them going.

im really not sure how this works, but there was some talk recently somewhere (here or over at ww) talking about how some of the pros like heavier wheels (im thinking bonti's) at the toc....it was confusing, but for the flat stages where they werent going over hills, i guess the heavier wheels were stiffer (logical) for sprints and took less effort to keep at speed in the pack, which i guess makes sense.


regradless of all that, id take the 404's personally. the benefits of the 58mm vs 39mm rim make more sense to me than the weight differences. there are a million other options as well.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

my current 404 is real fast up hill and really fast down hill and hold incredible speed on flat. i was thinking about 343 ( 303 front with 404 rear. that ways i got both climbing lightweight of front 303 and stability of rear 404 ) by the way 404 weight in 1276 grams so it's very light. 303 or 404 won't win you any sprinting races. 404 will win you alot of races if you're Vino-like rider, which i'm, or pretend to be. heheh oh yeah do watchout for pothole!!

OM: go with 404, better looking/bling ( show more decals ) and if you're an agressive rider, then 404 is the choice. once you're in the front, you'll finally glad you've a wheel that won't let you down. GL with your choice/racing.


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

303's are better in cross winds. 404's are a bit more areo. The weight difference is so small that you will never notice the difference. If built right both are stiff. You could always have a 404 in the rear and a 303 up front. Both are good in a crit if its not windy. Riding 404's in gusty wind conditions can throw you off your line. Both are far better then the ever present Mavic Kysriums that look to be on every crit bike I see at least regarding performance.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

404 are surpringly not as bad vs. cross wind as some claimed unless we're talking 30+ mph wind. anything less than that it won't " effect " your riding/racing. thanks godness i live in northen california, eventhough some wind, but not 30+ mph or hurricane wind types. infact 95% of the days here either 15 MPH or less-that's like a breez, cool and keep me going for a longer ride. plus i don't think you want ZERO wind either of course you live in Dead valley or an African desert.


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## outdoors-maniac (Nov 15, 2005)

Yeah.. I've always wanted some Zipp 404's even back when I first started cycling and hardly even knew their purpose.

Thats probably what I'll end up with.. although I just found out today I can get ritchey stuff at an amazing price through my team, and they have a carbon tubular wheelset that weighs in at 1300 something grams.... I'm not sure about their durablity or quality though.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

OM: you won't be disapointed with 404. they do cost alot but it worths every penny. it's better if you could get them on spring sale or through Ebay.


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## littlefeat (Aug 25, 2006)

I had 404's for a couple of years and whilst they're quick, look great and they are very light; a crosswind will really put the fear of god in you. In a crosswind I couldn't ride with confidence and would slow down which was frustrating. For an overall wheel, go 303's, well that's if you're set on Zipps.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

littlefeat said:


> I had 404's for a couple of years and whilst they're quick, look great and they are very light; a crosswind will really put the fear of god in you. In a crosswind I couldn't ride with confidence and would slow down which was frustrating. For an overall wheel, go 303's, well that's if you're set on Zipps.


How a crosswind affects someone is more a matter of how that person rides and responds.

I've got Stratus DV rims, and I've never felt the fear of any god when riding in windy or gusty conditions. Steady wind conditions are more easy to deal with than heavy gusts, but dealing with gusts ain't all that difficult. Lighter riders might have a more difficult time, and unconfident riders that ride with a death grip at all times will definitely have a more difficult time.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

*All around riding, I like the 303s..(long post)*



Forrest Root said:


> How a crosswind affects someone is more a matter of how that person rides and responds.
> 
> I've got Stratus DV rims, and I've never felt the fear of any god when riding in windy or gusty conditions. Steady wind conditions are more easy to deal with than heavy gusts, but dealing with gusts ain't all that difficult. Lighter riders might have a more difficult time, and unconfident riders that ride with a death grip at all times will definitely have a more difficult time.


 With the help of ebay, I have the following wheelsets: (Lew) Reynolds DVs, Zipp 303s and Reynolds Stratus Cirro (climbing wheels with a very low profile) I also have some Corima 4 spoke with a tall section front and a Zipp disc and a set of Nimble clincher alloy rims..

I recently spent two months training and riding in the California desert. A fairly windy spot with a wide variety of riding conditions. Did a couple of crits, a hillclimb (mass start) and lots of long (~100+mi) training rides over varied terrain, so I got a good feel for how all the various wheels worked..I spent last winter in the same area and summer in the Columbia River Gorge (windsurfing capitol of the US and right on the backside slopes of the Cascade range.) 

This long duration training trip, due to space constraints, I only took two bikes and 4 wheel-sets..hee hee. I knew I would be repeatedly riding long steep passes in the Coast range as well as often doing long solo training rides down on the desert floor, so I took the Reynolds Cirro's for the climbs and the Stratus DVs (quite similar to the Zipp 404s) as my two main training wheelsets. Left my Zipp 303s home, regrettably. Brought the Corrimas along with the disc for a planned TT, and the Nimble clinchers for long group rides away from civilization (making it possible to have double backup in case of multiple flats, using patch and tube help borrowed from the other riders, if need be)

Now, if I were to bring only one set of wheels, it would have been the 303s, which fit right between the tall section full aeros and the extra light climbing Cirros

I found myself choosing to ride the Cirros more often even for flattish rides, due to the wind. The DV Reynolds (and 404s, I am sure, also) just weren't pleasant to ride in the wind. Not difficult to control, but irritating to sit on all day, being tilted as each gust came through. Frustrating after a few hours in the saddle, and irritating when traffic momentarily blocked sidewinds.. Somewhat funky feeling on very fast mountain descents, too. I ride a Look 585 which is super stable at speed, but coming down switchbacks with the wind swriling about on the deep section wheels forced me to really work to keep on top of my line.

The Cirros, on the other hand, were easy to deal with in the wind, but noticably slower right into a headwind or at high speed. Better on very steep climbs when your speeds were necessarily slow. Also better control during braking, probably due to the sides of the rims being stiffer due to the compact shape of the low profile rims.

So, I had the conditions covered at both ends, but the 303s would have done both jobs. Being away from the shops and dependent on the equipment I had along, I decided on taking two sets (for backup) rather than just the 303s..But now that I am back at home, I almost always ride just the 303s unless I know for sure that it will likely remain calm all day or that I will be climbing all day..

The 303s seem like a good choice for all around. I also like the fact that you can access the spokes without unglueing the dang tubular..for a training and everyday carbon wheel this is a useful feature..The only drawback I've found on the 303s is they don't have quite the control under braking that the Reynolds seem to have. Maybe Zipp has overcome that in it's newer generation wheels..Not a problem to descend safely, but unnerving the way the stopping power 'pulses' as you grab the brakes.

Don Hanson


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## Ardent (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks for this thread - I was just debating this myself!

I think I'll use a pair of zipp 417 rims & sapim cx-ray (same as the 303 clincher) with DT 190S ceramic hubs. The extra 312g of rotating weight just doesn't sit with me that happily, and I'd like not to get blown off my bike by wind.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

blindzebra said:


> While it's true that more aero trumps lighter weight this won't be a factor if your are road racing in draft legal races. When drafting the added aerodynamics will prvide no benefit. Further the aero wheels take longer to spin up to speed and are less responsive in a sprint.


In know this thread is a little old but it just got ressurected, so...

I get a funny feeling when people say that an aero wheel doesn't do anything for you in mass start races. The main reason is that if you never put your nose in the wind you aren't really trying to win... and then it doesn't matter what you ride. If are in a break or solo flyer, then the aero will matter a lot. If you are sprinting for the win it will matter too... it will matter more than the little extra weight (I've calculated the difference, BTW). Same for hills. Even though aero effects are small then, they are *still* worth more than the weight savings in most cases.

As for the potential handling problem, the same thing that is making the handling sketchy in a side wind is also reducing the drag... it's the airfoil effect. So it's good to get used to it. 

I'm sure there aren't *big* differences between these wheels in any circumstance, but still.... Aero rules...


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