# Indy Fab vs. Serotta



## Sean OConnor (Nov 25, 2002)

Help! I finally had my fit done by someone competent (Fitwerx in Waitsfield, VT) and I need to get a custom frame. IF and Serotta are the two builders I've narrowed it down to. I'm looking at Ti vs. Steel. The Serottas are significantly more expensive, but they could get me a frame much sooner. I have heard that Serottas are over-priced for the quality of the product, though. Any help/experience would be appreciated!


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

I just had a custom Serotta Concours CS made. I havent received it yet so I cant comment about the quality. If it is poor, its going right back. I really think I paid WAY-WAY too much for the frame. (I am not cheap, I just think the cost isnt justified) Looking back, I should have gotten something else.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Lots of miinformation..........*

when it comes to oponions about custom frames.

First of all, I own two Serottas, so you can judge how objective I am.

Second, as to Serotta quality, it is at least as good, if not better than any of the high dollar bicycle manufacturers. 

As to what you get for your money, that's a decision only you cn make. I test rode (50+ mile rides) Seven's, Serotta, waterford, Moots, IF, and several others in similar sizes. To me, there were definite differences in the ride (All rides were done with my wheels). The Serotta ride was, for me, livlier, more responsive and more comfortable, YMMV. For me, the ride difference combined with (what I perceived) was better quality, was worth the premium I paid. You have to do the work for yourself to decide.

Once you get into the price range you are obviously going to spend, all of the bikes are good bikes. In addition, like all bike equipement, the incremental gains you get get smaller and smaller as you go up the price/gain curve. 

It's your money, and you should spend it on something that you get psyched about. Do your homework, take everyone's oponion (including mine) with a grain of salt, and then trust your own instincts.

Most people would envy either bike..........It's a nice choice to have.

Len


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## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

I have noticed that Serottas tend to be quite expensive. I'm not sure of IF's pricing but I assume it's more competitive. I've never heard a bad thing about IF. I'm sure they could build a custom bike on par with Serotta.

I'm a Ti fan. I don't like worrying about paint chips. I like the industrial look of an unpainted Ti frame. I like the supple ride of Ti. If I was having a custom frame built, it would be Ti. If you like the beauty of a painted frame and want to spend less money, you can make just as good a bike with steel.


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## ChuckM (Jun 16, 2004)

I disagree that Serottas are way over-priced. I sold them for years at several different bike shops. Most (90%) of my customers after test riding several bikes concluded the Serotta rode the best. The difference was noticeable. To get that ride advantage costs more -- special tubing and more build time. I have a Serotta CSI steel bike and would never trade it for an Indy Fab. Serottas are worth the money - the company would not have lasted 32 years if they weren't. The question for anyone looking at these bikes to answer is whether the unique ride and build quality of the Serotta justifies its cost compared to other bikes. For thousands of cyclists over many years the answer has been yes.


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## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

ChuckM said:


> I disagree that Serottas are way over-priced. I sold them for years at several different bike shops. Most (90%) of my customers after test riding several bikes concluded the Serotta rode the best. The difference was noticeable. To get that ride advantage costs more -- special tubing and more build time. I have a Serotta CSI steel bike and would never trade it for an Indy Fab. Serottas are worth the money - the company would not have lasted 32 years if they weren't. The question for anyone looking at these bikes to answer is whether the unique ride and build quality of the Serotta justifies its cost compared to other bikes. For thousands of cyclists over many years the answer has been yes.


I think it's Serotta's 32 years in business, their network of distributors and the mystique they created that has led to their ability to obtain $2195 for a steel frame with no fork. I will say I'm impressed with Serotta's fit system.


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## djg (Nov 27, 2001)

*Are the steel prices all that different?*

I cannot tell you which bike to prefer, but it seems to me that the steel Serotta that ought to be compared to the IF Crown Jewel is the TIG welded CIII, not the lugged CSi. The CIII, built custom and with standard paint, is just under 1500 bucks. No fork included, however.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

djg said:


> I cannot tell you which bike to prefer, but it seems to me that the steel Serotta that ought to be compared to the IF Crown Jewel is the TIG welded CIII, not the lugged CSi. The CIII, built custom and with standard paint, is just under 1500 bucks. No fork included, however.


I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

Serotta = more money than sense. I've ridden several of his bikes, and I'm way more happy with my crappy low priced stock carbon fiber frame than anything I ever rode from that wool wearing weepy eyed lug brazing New Yorker. I guess I don't see the point of spending $2200 on a frame that is heavy and not a good ride. I'd rather spend $600 on something that is lighter, more responsive, and better handling, and racey. Yes, I said racey.

Now if you want to talk top o' the line customer bikes. Go to Calfee. I don't think you'd ever go wrong there (that's if price isn't much of an object). If not, stick to IF. Those guys really know what they're doing, and make super high quality rides. Or Seven. Same thing there.


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## shaq-d (Apr 19, 2004)

magnolialover said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again...
> 
> Serotta = more money than sense. I've ridden several of his bikes, and I'm way more happy with my crappy low priced stock carbon fiber frame than anything I ever rode from that wool wearing weepy eyed lug brazing New Yorker. I guess I don't see the point of spending $2200 on a frame that is heavy and not a good ride. I'd rather spend $600 on something that is lighter, more responsive, and better handling, and racey. Yes, I said racey.


serottas are race bikes. they sponsor a few, and the tour de france was won by greg lemond on one, maybe you've heard of him? i agree, i wouldn't pay that much. just why my serotta was acquired used. oh, and it's fantastic.

sd


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## spankdoggie (Feb 13, 2004)

magnolialover said:


> I've said it before, and I'll say it again...
> 
> Serotta = more money than sense. I've ridden several of his bikes, and I'm way more happy with my crappy low priced stock carbon fiber frame than anything I ever rode from that wool wearing weepy eyed lug brazing New Yorker. I guess I don't see the point of spending $2200 on a frame that is heavy and not a good ride. I'd rather spend $600 on something that is lighter, more responsive, and better handling, and racey. Yes, I said racey.


Sounds like the opinion of a young man who is not yet able to afford the best bike. I used to have the same opinion, as well when I was younger. Your opinion will change, as has mine and that is why I own a Serotta Csi with whipped cream, nuts, and a cherry on top.

Shoot $5-8 thousand for the best bicycle in the world? Heck (sorry for swearing) yes! Shucks (sorry again for the profanity) a new Corolla or Civic costs twice that, and is considered cheap...

I guess it depends on what you love. If you love riding, as you grow older and earn more, you will get the best. I used to be happy on a $600 piece of crap in my early twenties just like you. I just didn't know any better. 

The ride of a Serotta Csi is like magic. I actually likened it to a Ferarri when I took a very tight turn at 40 miles/hour and the Serotta whispered "faster" to me. That $600 piece of garbage I was riding in my early twenties would have exploded at the forces I put on my Serotta.

It took two hours to fit me perfectly and it was free with the purchase of the bike. Customer service is unreal. Serotta will always be there for me. BigMac helped me with my purchase, and for that I am forever grateful....

Buy the Serotta; wait an extra 2 or 3 months. My wife always says: "Get the best, so you never want anything else."

Cheers.

spank


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## Mariowannabe (Oct 21, 2002)

*What is value?*

Its the sum of a lot of things, and different for each of us. I live in Saratoga Springs and know/ride with a lot of people who work there. The company is the real deal. They are fanatical about their business. The bikes are top notch, the welds second to none, backed by a solid company. The company is continualy innovating. The price you pay goes into more than just tubes and a paycheck for the welder. Race team sponsorship, R&D, great paint, etc. You are buying a marque - mystique. I equate them to Jaguar.

They are putting their emphasis on Ti and carbon these days. So, if you want lugged steel, I'd consider other options in addition to Serotta. Don't rule 'em out, just consider. 

Fit is everything, and I've noticed a lot of Serottas coming out which err on the side of comfort. I.e. head tube extensions and other more subtle design elements. Don't know if this is Serotta's influence or LBS, but I don't like it. Contributes to an unstable ride. 

The only problem I have with Serotta is that they're not made in Italy. ;-)


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

*You're joking right?*



spankdoggie said:


> Sounds like the opinion of a young man who is not yet able to afford the best bike. I used to have the same opinion, as well when I was younger. Your opinion will change, as has mine and that is why I own a Serotta Csi with whipped cream, nuts, and a cherry on top.
> 
> Shoot $5-8 thousand for the best bicycle in the world? Heck (sorry for swearing) yes! Shucks (sorry again for the profanity) a new Corolla or Civic costs twice that, and is considered cheap...
> 
> ...



I agree with the others that say Serotta is over priced. For that matter, so is IF. In fact, IF is MORE over priced than Serotta considering the use of basically round tubes on most of their frames. At least Serotta shapes the tubes some.

Of course my opinion is based on the fact that I think ANY frame that costs more than $1000 is purely emotional anyway. No real functional advantage once you cross that point.

If one wants the best bang for the buck, call up Carl Strong. Serotta is jewelry, nothing wrong with that. Just don't spew the BS about superior ride, bla, bla, bla.

Just my opinion, as always. 


Ed


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

Did I hear correctly? - FREE CUSTOM TUBING? I was charged a $1000.00 premium above the cost of the frame and paint job. My Concours CS will cost me $4100 with NO COMPONENTS. Someone I work with said that sounded too high. The guy I ordered it from is a little sleazy, but I figured he took the 2 hours to fit me properly so what the hell. I'll go in there and crack his skull with a pipe if he is trying to rip me off. Good thing my deposit is on my American Express.


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

It is 7:21am in NYC. At 9:00am I will be outside of the bike store that sold me this Serotta. I just looked at the Serotta website and I see custom geometry is included in the price of Concours CS.

I was charged:
Frame CS -$2895.
Custom geometry - $1000.
F2 Fork w/paint - $675.

Total Retail -$4,570.00
Discount - (10%) - $457.00
Grand total - $4,100.00 

I wont list the shop name until I clear this up.


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## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

pugdog1 said:


> It is 7:21am in NYC. At 9:00am I will be outside of the bike store that sold me this Serotta. I just looked at the Serotta website and I see custom geometry is included in the price of Concours CS.
> 
> I was charged:
> Frame CS -$2895.
> ...


my goodness, this guy is ripping you off! you should complain to Serotta! $2.9k for a swank custom ti frame, butted tubing, is within par for the course. the key word is CUSTOM. most manufacturers that swanky are not going to be mass producers (exception: Litespeed). there is no reason they should have an upcharge for custom. post the shop's name and the guy's name, report them to Serotta, get a lawyer, chargeback your card! do the full scorched earth deal! this guy is a scumbag!!!!


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## LowCel (Feb 9, 2004)

Oops, double post. Correct post is below.


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## LowCel (Feb 9, 2004)

pugdog, I really hope you are able to clear this up.

As for the IF vs. Serotta it is always going to be a personal choice. Myself I went with an IF titanium crown jewel. I wish I could give you my opinion on it but I am still about six weeks from seeing it. One of the main reasons I went with IF is because I was always a huge fan of Fat Chance. I still think the "yo eddy" was the best mountain bike frame ever made but thats another story. Oh yeah, another reason I went with the IF was because I could get it on employee purchase.  I really don't think you are going to hear anyone saying anything negative about either of the bikes you are considering. I'm not really sure what I was trying to say but I did want to give you a link to serotta's forums. People there talk about serottas and ifs. Here is the link to that one. http://www.serotta.com/forum/index.php? Another great website to check out is http://www.bikefanclub.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?Cat=0 . The bike fan club site has a lot of people comparing the two different bike companies.

Hope this helps.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*I could afford it...*



spankdoggie said:


> Sounds like the opinion of a young man who is not yet able to afford the best bike. I used to have the same opinion, as well when I was younger. Your opinion will change, as has mine and that is why I own a Serotta Csi with whipped cream, nuts, and a cherry on top.
> 
> Shoot $5-8 thousand for the best bicycle in the world? Heck (sorry for swearing) yes! Shucks (sorry again for the profanity) a new Corolla or Civic costs twice that, and is considered cheap...
> 
> ...


So I could afford the Serotta, while I just don't see any point in spending $2900 for a frame, while I can get a complete bike for far less than that, and it's going to be a sweet ride. Right now I've got a Dura-Ace 10 speed equipped carbon bike, with Ksyrium race wheels that I got for about $1000 brand new. So where is the logic in trading something like that for a $2900 piece of jewelry that doesn't even come ready to ride? Once again, as mentioned before, more money than sense. I've been racing for several years now, and not once have I actually seen someone in a race with me that has been riding a Serotta. Not to say that they haven't been there, but I haven't seen them. Most of the people I see riding Serottas are older (45 and over) recreational riders cruising through the countryside on their prized posession they ride 1-2 times per week. For me, as much as I race, I wouldn't want to plant my ass on a $2900 frame. I hit the deck 6 or 7 different times last year in races. I wouldn't want to crash something that expensive. I'll take cheap, light, reliable, and easily replaceable. At least while I'm still racing 60+ times per year.


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## ifcjti (Jun 14, 2004)

*IF v. Serotta*



Sean OConnor said:


> Help! I finally had my fit done by someone competent (Fitwerx in Waitsfield, VT) and I need to get a custom frame. IF and Serotta are the two builders I've narrowed it down to. I'm looking at Ti vs. Steel. The Serottas are significantly more expensive, but they could get me a frame much sooner. I have heard that Serottas are over-priced for the quality of the product, though. Any help/experience would be appreciated!


Sean, I have owned both a steel and a Ti Serotta. I enjoyed both bikes very much although as it turns out neither one really fit me properly. I had a fitting done in December 2003 and test rode a Seven, IF, Moots, all Ti. I eliminated the Serotta this time around because I thought they were just to heavy. In addition, I live in the Boston area and IF's are built near by. Anyway, after test riding the three brands of Ti frames I felt the ride of the IF was far and away superior to the other two. It could have been the different wheels, forks etc., but for me these test rides made up my mind and I ordered the IF Crown Jewel Ti and couldn't be happier. The ride is lively, very comfortable, the complete bike with dura ace 9-speed and pretty standard wheels (Hugi 240 hubs, Velocity aerohead rims, DT spokes) weighs 17 lbs. Overall, I highly recommend IF, great company to work with , very receptive to taking calls directly from you with any questions you might have about their frames, and help out with the build details. This is not a knock on Serotta as there are obviously many happy owners of their frames as well. You simply can't go wrong either way. Good luck, and let us know what you decide on.


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## LowCel (Feb 9, 2004)

So what bike do you ride that comes with dura ace 10 for a grand? Is that actual price or do you have partial sponsorship? If you are getting it below cost then your point is sorta void.


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

I am 33 years old and may never race. 
I ride 3-4 times per week if I am lucky. 
When I decided to buy a Serotta I told the guy I wanted some nice jewelry. 
My wife calls me an old fart, so I guess that makes all of your stereotypes true - magnolialover.

The bike will be built up with super overkill components. DA 10, Zipp 303’s, carbon everything and Ti everywhere else. I may never ride to the capabilities of the bike. 
It’s just another toy to me.


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## kenyee (Feb 6, 2004)

magnolialover said:


> I've ridden several of his bikes, and I'm way more happy with my crappy low priced stock carbon fiber frame than anything I ever rode from that wool wearing weepy eyed lug brazing New Yorker.


 That actually might explain *YOUR* preference.
Serotta's "standard" for ride quality is the CSI (steel). As a result, their Ti bikes are stiffer than other Ti frames because they're aiming for a ride like the CSI's. It's a slightly different philosophy in building Ti/Carbon.

Sounds like you have a Giant TCR for the price you quoted. That's a nice carbon frame *if* it fits you. If you're looking for custom carbon, look at Calfee and Parlee. Some people hate the "wooden" feel of carbon (not saying I do , so that's another viewpoint.


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## LowCel (Feb 9, 2004)

kenyee said:


> That actually might explain *YOUR* preference.
> Serotta's "standard" for ride quality is the CSI (steel). As a result, their Ti bikes are stiffer than other Ti frames because they're aiming for a ride like the CSI's. It's a slightly different philosophy in building Ti/Carbon.
> 
> Sounds like you have a Giant TCR for the price you quoted. That's a nice carbon frame *if* it fits you. If you're looking for custom carbon, look at Calfee and Parlee. Some people hate the "wooden" feel of carbon (not saying I do , so that's another viewpoint.


My last bike was a TCR 1 composite. It was a great bike I just didn't like the idea of getting one bad chainsuck or one bad crash and being out of a frame. I went with ti this time so that I would have a bike that would last forever. Don't know if I'll keep it that long though but it will be nice to have the option. By the way I'm 28 and going to be riding ti, does that make me an old fart?


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

No, the 28 makes you an old fart.


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## rrl (Jun 17, 2004)

> Second, as to Serotta quality, it is at least as good, if not better than any of the high dollar bicycle manufacturers.


most people with an objective view can tell you that a serotta although the quality is high does not have the same level of craftmanship as seven moots or spectrum. even a significant number of serotta owners will admit to that. serottas ti bikes are clearly overpriced compared to say a spectrum ti. with a spectrum the middle man in the form of the dealer is cut out of the equation because you order directly from the custom builder so you don't have to pay a dealer $1500 for placing your order with the manufacturer. 

another reason serottas cost so much is because of all the work they do to taper and butt their tubes with the top models being triple tapered and triple butted. other builders claim all that butting and tapering deadens the ride of the ti somewhat and some people claim that those fancy tubesets dont affect the ride as much as the wheelset does. but the bottom line is the looks of a bike are very important to a lot of people and a lot of people with money prefer the serotta name and design to other builders. if you ride a relatively common sized bike you can pick up a used serotta for a decent price compared to the retail price.



> The bikes are top notch, the welds second to none.


yes thats what the serotta catalog says! but anyone who claims the welds are second to none has never compared the welds on a serotta to a moots, seven, or a spectrum. serotta welds don't measure up.

as for serotta dealers in my experiences with several of them they acted like used car dealers. ive had serotta dealers quote me frame prices hundreds of dollars over the already exorbitant retail prices and try to tell me standard finishes are a significant upcharge. it isn't only the dealers either. serotta itself has misled me in the past about the details of a frame. those are my experiences and they may not be the norm but I think it's "buyer beware" with serotta.

since serotta engages in price fixing there is no competition for the price of a frame and healthy profit margins are built in for the dealers. an astute customer should know that they can bargain down the price for a complete buildup and the dealer will still probably make more profit than on any other bike they sell.


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## alembical (May 21, 2004)

Pugdog, 
Please keep us informed of how this turns out. Hopefully there was some kind of mistake or misunderstanding.

ppl,
Do you really believe that the quality of Seven's are far superior to Serotta's? I assume that you do, but I have not heard that before. I agree that the Moots welds are beautiful, just amazing. What kind of Seven do you ride? 

While Serotta's might be expensive, besides ppl's comments, there really does not seem to be any other negatives of them. We each have to make our own decisions with the resources we have, but IF's and Serottas are both amazing bikes that you will not hear many negative criticisms of.

Alembical


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## lyleseven (Nov 15, 2002)

*It's all about the fit....and*

tube selection. Forget comparing the two if money is a concern because IF is cheaper. If you get fit correctly and the tube selection is appropriate for your needs, either will do a great job. I went with Seven after considering Serotta because of price, weight, and the fitting procedure and detailed tube selection. Can't go wrong with any of these if money is not the primary factor.


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## shaq-d (Apr 19, 2004)

this weld quality talk is absolutely ridiculous. i have never heard of a serotta that went bad because the weld wasn't up to par.

as for how welds look, just look at a serotta. 'nuff said.

as for how the serotta rides with its weld quality, i haven't heard a complaint yet: "oh, my serotta doesn't ride well, see, the weld just isn't up to quality!". not.

finally i hope the guy works out the $1000 extra custom charge too. eesh.

sd


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

*Taste and preference*

The merits of one expensive custom ti bike vs. another is pretty slim.

I've toured the serotta factory, thought the place was pretty impressive, but they certainly do charge a premium, even on companies like Seven or IF. Is it worth it? I don't think so, but your opinion as the buyer and proud owner of this frame is certainly more important than mine.

I live in the capital district of NY as well, and Serottas are everywhere, never heard a complaint, but everyone seems to drool over my much less expensive Merckx race for some reason...

Silas


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## bcm119 (May 22, 2002)

It all comes down to personal preference. Neither IF nor Serotta build a poor bicycle, and in tigged steel, they are priced about the same. As long as you have been fitted well, you will be happy with either bike, so I would go with your gut, or your heart.

Since I own a Serotta, I will tell you why I chose it over others. I rode many Serottas and thought they all had a common ride quality- a snappy, comfortable ride, with absolutely no loss in pedaling efficiency, and dead straight tracking. The Serotta philosophy dictates a frame should be the ideal compromise in comfort and efficiency, and they've developed some tubing designs that do a great job of achieving this. The swaged tubes they use do make the BB stiffer while allowing a healthy degree of compliance, and I am a believer in this design over the more traditional straight tubes. Other features I like are the racy chainstays, the sweet brake bridges, and the second-to-none dropouts.
It is true that there are lighter bikes out there for less money. But if you appreciate the incredible handling of a spot-on fitted steel frame like a Serotta, you have far fewer choices, and I think you've narrowed it down to a worthy few. My Colorado III feels lighter than my Klein, and it corners better, climbs just as well, and is more comfortable over the long haul. You won't be disappointed!


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## ChuckM (Jun 16, 2004)

bsdc said:


> I think it's Serotta's 32 years in business, their network of distributors and the mystique they created that has led to their ability to obtain $2195 for a steel frame with no fork. I will say I'm impressed with Serotta's fit system.


I don't believe there is a network of distributors, at least not in the US. I think all frames are sold direct to independent bike dealers from the company. 

I have a problem with people who imply that any steel frame should be cheap simply because it is steel. Frames should be evaluated on their merits -- how well do they ride, how do they look, how well are they made, how long will they last, can they be repaired if crashed etc.. 

The frame you refer to is the CSI. Suppose the Serotta CSI scored a 10 out of 10 on each of these -- should we deduct 50% simply because its steel? Straight up, the CSI compares favorably to almost all other frames, even frames made of trendier materials that cost a lot more. 

Serotta is a tiny company and would have died years ago if their bikes didn't have the goods - they have a "mystique" but it is hard earned. 

The amazing thing is that the CSI is that pretty, that well made, will last just about forever, rides like magic and only costs $2195, full custom sizing and just about any color you want, included. Bargain. The puzzling thing is that a lot of people will dismiss it simply because it is steel and spend about the same or, more likely, hundreds more for lesser bikes.


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## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

magnolialover said:


> So I could afford the Serotta, while I just don't see any point in spending $2900 for a frame, while I can get a complete bike for far less than that, and it's going to be a sweet ride. Right now I've got a Dura-Ace 10 speed equipped carbon bike, with Ksyrium race wheels that I got for about $1000 brand new. So where is the logic in trading something like that for a $2900 piece of jewelry that doesn't even come ready to ride? Once again, as mentioned before, more money than sense. I've been racing for several years now, and not once have I actually seen someone in a race with me that has been riding a Serotta. Not to say that they haven't been there, but I haven't seen them. Most of the people I see riding Serottas are older (45 and over) recreational riders cruising through the countryside on their prized posession they ride 1-2 times per week. For me, as much as I race, I wouldn't want to plant my ass on a $2900 frame. I hit the deck 6 or 7 different times last year in races. I wouldn't want to crash something that expensive. I'll take cheap, light, reliable, and easily replaceable. At least while I'm still racing 60+ times per year.


I think your DA-10 and K's belong in the jewelry box with the CSI.


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## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

ChuckM said:


> The amazing thing is that the CSI is that pretty, that well made, will last just about forever, rides like magic and only costs $2195, full custom sizing and just about any color you want, included. Bargain. The puzzling thing is that a lot of people will dismiss it simply because it is steel and spend about the same or, more likely, hundreds more for lesser bikes.


the thing is, steel is much less expensive than titanium or carbon. I have no doubts that the CSI is a great bike, but I can get a Seven Alaris for $2k. titanium is hard to extract from ore and requires special equipment to weld. and granted the Alaris is straight gauge, but Seven can tune the tubeset quite well. I actually have an Alaris with an aero downtube, and it rides really nice (even though a lot of ti frames with aero tubes ride harsh). Seven's steel frame retails for $1.5k (?). for a super swanky, bike-of-the-gods steel frame, I'd think $1800 would be the upper limit for me.


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## rrl (Jun 17, 2004)

............


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## sorebut (Nov 21, 2001)

weiwentg said:


> the thing is, steel is much less expensive than titanium or carbon. I have no doubts that the CSI is a great bike, but I can get a Seven Alaris for $2k. titanium is hard to extract from ore and requires special equipment to weld. and granted the Alaris is straight gauge, but Seven can tune the tubeset quite well. I actually have an Alaris with an aero downtube, and it rides really nice (even though a lot of ti frames with aero tubes ride harsh). Seven's steel frame retails for $1.5k (?). for a super swanky, bike-of-the-gods steel frame, I'd think $1800 would be the upper limit for me.


The cost of the material it self is negligible in the cost of a bike.. a pound of Titanium in the past 5 years ranged between $10 and $15 a pound and steel (cro mo) probably $0.50 to $0.90 a pound.. Yes, titanium is a lot more expensive then steel but $10 as part of the cost of a frame is not a big factor, especially if those frames are not made in the thousands on an automated assembly line. 
What makes titanium more expensive is the fact that there are only one manufacturer that make Ti butted bicycle tubes, and many many others make steel tubing. 
Still, the cost of a bike frame is mostly labor, and marketing (brand name), where the cost of the raw metal is not a big factor.


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

*Serotta crime update*

The guy at the store knowingly over charged me. He claimed the $1000.00 custom geometry and tubing line on my receipt was now for his "In store fit charge". 
Being the nasty a$$ hole that I am, I told him he was lying and when the bike comes next week he could just stick it up his a$$ if he didn’t adjust the price. I also let him know I was contacting Serotta and Amex right there in the store if he didn’t adjust so he could hear first hand how I plan to burry him.

He put up a little fight but I got my $1000.00 adjusted in my favor. I threatened him with BBB calls, reporting to the chamber of commerce, losing his Serotta franchise, losing customers, losing teeth. I also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together.

I am in no rush to get this bike together. If it comes next week and there is a speck of dirt in the paint or a weld I dont like, its going back on the spot. The fun is soiled.


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## TUT2222 (Jul 22, 2002)

*Hmmmmmmmmm*

You mean $1000.00 is expensive for a fitting?  I hope when you say you got the price adjusted in your favor, that the grand was completely removed. 
Good luck with what happens next.


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## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

Actually the price for a Ti Seven and Serotta (no CF), if you compare apples to apples, is about the same. I checked while following this thread. Seven Axiom-$2695, Serotta Concours -2595...both Double butted Ti. The Serotta Legend is 3295, but it is triple butted and lighter.


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## LowCel (Feb 9, 2004)

divve said:


> No, the 28 makes you an old fart.


Cool, now that I know that I have an excuse for being so slow.


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## LowCel (Feb 9, 2004)

pugdog1 said:


> The guy at the store knowingly over charged me. He claimed the $1000.00 custom geometry and tubing line on my receipt was now for his "In store fit charge".
> Being the nasty a$$ hole that I am, I told him he was lying and when the bike comes next week he could just stick it up his a$$ if he didn’t adjust the price. I also let him know I was contacting Serotta and Amex right there in the store if he didn’t adjust so he could hear first hand how I plan to burry him.
> 
> He put up a little fight but I got my $1000.00 adjusted in my favor. I threatened him with BBB calls, reporting to the chamber of commerce, losing his Serotta franchise, losing customers, losing teeth. I also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together.
> ...



Congratulations pugdog! I'm just curious, was he actually able to say that the $1000 was for the custom fit with a straight face? I couldn't imagine ever telling a customer that.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Way to go Pug...*

I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation. I'd still call Serotta and ask them to mail you the frame directly, that way the guy never gets to touch the frame. Plus, just think how many people he's already screwed.


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## rrl (Jun 17, 2004)

pugdog1 said:


> The guy at the store knowingly over charged me. He claimed the $1000.00 custom geometry and tubing line on my receipt was now for his "In store fit charge".
> Being the nasty a$$ hole that I am, I told him he was lying and when the bike comes next week he could just stick it up his a$$ if he didn’t adjust the price. I also let him know I was contacting Serotta and Amex right there in the store if he didn’t adjust so he could hear first hand how I plan to burry him.
> 
> He put up a little fight but I got my $1000.00 adjusted in my favor. I threatened him with BBB calls, reporting to the chamber of commerce, losing his Serotta franchise, losing customers, losing teeth. I also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together.
> ...


in the end the dealer is still going to make a healthy profit on the frame. i would not let the matter end there. a lot of dealers will refund the price of a fit when you order a frame from them so his lame excuse doesnt work either. i would take him to small claims court and claim fraud. you should be able to get your frame free. i would also contact serotta and tell them you want a price adjustment because one of their dealers screwed you. tell serotta you want the price adjusted down so the dealer won't make any profit. serotta will still make their profit so they won't be out anything and you will get the dealers cut off your frame price.

if you want you can opt out of the transaction all together. you don't have to wait for the frame to come in to find fault with it. call amex and reverse the charges. you would be put in the position of having to order a frame from another shop and going through the wait again but somehow i think the frame you ordered would find its way to you at the new shop. serotta might even hold the frame for you while you get a new dealer.

gl


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

*yeah, right.*

I had thought the same thing when I bought the CF1, but guess what?



spankdoggie said:


> My wife always says: "Get the best, so you never want anything else."
> 
> spank


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## ryder-02 (Jun 18, 2004)

Why would a bike shop just give you the cost of the fit? If he is charging you $1000.00 you might want to check that out but charging for a fit is fully with in reason. Do you not pay for labor on bike repair and part installation? Do you pay labor on you car, lawnmower, roof or home appliances? Why should it be so different in bike shops? Those people ( sales staff, mechanics and owners) need to earn a living too. If you keep nickel and diming them and not letting them charge for their education of bicycle mechanics and fitting education good luck getting products and services from them in the future. I don't understand the mentality of the cycling community and how they think everything should be cheap or free. Goods and Services need to be paid for. I am sure you would love it if someone came into your office and said, "You know what I only want to pay you 70% of what you are asking." 
Respect your shops and pay for services rendered and they will be there when you need them in the future.


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## sorebut (Nov 21, 2001)

pugdog1 said:


> The guy at the store knowingly over charged me. He claimed the $1000.00 custom geometry and tubing line on my receipt was now for his "In store fit charge".
> Being the nasty a$$ hole that I am, I told him he was lying and when the bike comes next week he could just stick it up his a$$ if he didn’t adjust the price. I also let him know I was contacting Serotta and Amex right there in the store if he didn’t adjust so he could hear first hand how I plan to burry him.
> 
> He put up a little fight but I got my $1000.00 adjusted in my favor. I threatened him with BBB calls, reporting to the chamber of commerce, losing his Serotta franchise, losing customers, losing teeth. I also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together.
> ...


PugDog1:

this doesn't sound right.. You want to tell me that the LBS charged you for the MSRP price of the frame, *and* *on top of it* charged you $1000 for fit? if this is the case, they are "double dipping" because there is enough margin is the MSRP price for dealers to: fit the bike, free free tune-ups, and profit. 
Is it possible that the LBS screwed up and put their cost price on the invoice? And then added their margin on it so it comes out to MSRP? BTW, fitting a bike cost between $free to $120 in our area. and building up a bike (from frame to bike) is typically $100 to $150.


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## ifcjti (Jun 14, 2004)

*Paying For A Fit*



ryder-02 said:


> Why would a bike shop just give you the cost of the fit? If he is charging you $1000.00 you might want to check that out but charging for a fit is fully with in reason. Do you not pay for labor on bike repair and part installation? Do you pay labor on you car, lawnmower, roof or home appliances? Why should it be so different in bike shops? Those people ( sales staff, mechanics and owners) need to earn a living too. If you keep nickel and diming them and not letting them charge for their education of bicycle mechanics and fitting education good luck getting products and services from them in the future. I don't understand the mentality of the cycling community and how they think everything should be cheap or free. Goods and Services need to be paid for. I am sure you would love it if someone came into your office and said, "You know what I only want to pay you 70% of what you are asking."
> Respect your shops and pay for services rendered and they will be there when you need them in the future.


EVERY GOOD SHOP I HAVE EVER VISITED ALWAYS INCLUDES THE PRICE OF THE FIT WITHIN THE PRICE OF THE BIKE IF YOU END UP MAKING THE PURCHASE, IT'S A GIVEN. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A SHOP CHARGING AN ADDITIONAL SUM FOR A CUSTOM FIT FRAME WHEN YOU END UP MAKING THE PURCHASE OF THE FRAME FROM THEM, IT'S PART OF THE SALE. IF YOU SIMPLY GO TO A SHOP FOR A FITING AND DO NOT PURCHASE A FRAME/BIKE, FINE A FEE IS IN ORDER, HOW MUCH? ABOUT $60-100, BUT $1,000, WOW!


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Absolutely correct. The fit is included in the bicycle price. Don't let anyone fool you - If you are being charged extra then you are in the wrong shop. There is plenty of markup on these custom frames.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

if that were me, i'd end the sale completely, and go buy the bike from some other shop, even if i had to drive a couple hours to get there. i'd never give that guy even a penny of my business after that.


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## shaq-d (Apr 19, 2004)

pugdog1 said:


> The guy I ordered it from is a little sleazy


The lesson here from pugdog is obvious: do NOT deal with people you know to be SLEAZY. Duh.

The lesson from the thread? IF and Serotta's rock.

sd


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

sorebut said:


> PugDog1:
> 
> this doesn't sound right.. You want to tell me that the LBS charged you for the MSRP price of the frame, *and* *on top of it* charged you $1000 for fit? if this is the case, they are "double dipping" because there is enough margin is the MSRP price for dealers to: fit the bike, free free tune-ups, and profit.
> Is it possible that the LBS screwed up and put their cost price on the invoice? And then added their margin on it so it comes out to MSRP? BTW, fitting a bike cost between $free to $120 in our area. and building up a bike (from frame to bike) is typically $100 to $150.


Close - he gave me 10% off the frame and fork and 20% off the group and wheels. 
The $1000 was LIE, he said Serotta charged the $1k for custome frame building. When confronted he said it was for him to fit me, which was a LIE and nonsense. Now we are settled and I am never going back. Ill have my Serotta on Friday. I could really care less about some bum who owns some little bike shop. Its not worth the time to go through all of this again for a bike. Maybe I'll go screw with him sometime down the road when he isnt expecting it.

Custom Frame, F2 painted fork and King headset - $3k. Ill take it.


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## colker1 (Jan 2, 2003)

rufus said:


> if that were me, i'd end the sale completely, and go buy the bike from some other shop, even if i had to drive a couple hours to get there. i'd never give that guy even a penny of my business after that.


i second that. the LBS guy must seize the customer and try the trick.. if it works they are $1000 better. what a crook!
no harm in saying "thak you for the fitting but now i'm buying somewhere else".


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## sorebut (Nov 21, 2001)

pugdog1 said:


> --- snip ---
> 
> Custom Frame, F2 painted fork and King headset - $3k. Ill take it.


$3k.. take it, and try to forget the guy.. 
Now you go have fun hunting for a groupset and buildup kit.. enjoy building it up, and eventually riding it. good Luck!

And just so you know, we do expect picture.....


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## The Don (Feb 6, 2004)

*Now you can go Campy!*

_I__ also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together._

A beautiful frame deserves it...


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## geeker (Nov 21, 2002)

rrl said:


> if you want you can opt out of the transaction all together. you don't have to wait for the frame to come in to find fault with it. call amex and reverse the charges. you would be put in the position of having to order a frame from another shop and going through the wait again but somehow i think the frame you ordered would find its way to you at the new shop. serotta might even hold the frame for you while you get a new dealer.


I strongly agree. This shop tried to rip you off, and the owner seems like a crook. I wouldn't want to do any kind of business with them. The hassle and bad karma isn't worth it. Bag it and resubmit the order through a decent (non-arseholic) dealer.


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## spankdoggie (Feb 13, 2004)

pugdog1 said:


> The guy at the store knowingly over charged me. He claimed the $1000.00 custom geometry and tubing line on my receipt was now for his "In store fit charge".
> Being the nasty a$$ hole that I am, I told him he was lying and when the bike comes next week he could just stick it up his a$$ if he didn’t adjust the price. I also let him know I was contacting Serotta and Amex right there in the store if he didn’t adjust so he could hear first hand how I plan to burry him.
> 
> He put up a little fight but I got my $1000.00 adjusted in my favor. I threatened him with BBB calls, reporting to the chamber of commerce, losing his Serotta franchise, losing customers, losing teeth. I also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together.
> ...


We have a man here. Anybody with "dog" in their name or in their avatar is a man, at least as far as I have seen so far here. Pugster, the guy is a criminal. Maybe you should burn him down another few hundred dollars lower to stop you from taking him to the cleaners via the methods you mentioned Pugster. You are definitely "The Pugstinator."


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## spankdoggie (Feb 13, 2004)

pugdog1 said:


> The guy at the store knowingly over charged me. He claimed the $1000.00 custom geometry and tubing line on my receipt was now for his "In store fit charge".
> Being the nasty a$$ hole that I am, I told him he was lying and when the bike comes next week he could just stick it up his a$$ if he didn’t adjust the price. I also let him know I was contacting Serotta and Amex right there in the store if he didn’t adjust so he could hear first hand how I plan to burry him.
> 
> He put up a little fight but I got my $1000.00 adjusted in my favor. I threatened him with BBB calls, reporting to the chamber of commerce, losing his Serotta franchise, losing customers, losing teeth. I also cancelled my 2004 Dura Ace 10 group, Zipp 303 wheels, and all of the other carbon crap I bought from him to put this thing together.
> ...


Absolutely shameful behavior form the lbs, Pugster. Please keep us posted.


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## CHT (Mar 1, 2001)

pugdog1 said:


> Close - he gave me 10% off the frame and fork and 20% off the group and wheels.
> The $1000 was LIE, he said Serotta charged the $1k for custome frame building. When confronted he said it was for him to fit me, which was a LIE and nonsense. Now we are settled and I am never going back. Ill have my Serotta on Friday. I could really care less about some bum who owns some little bike shop. Its not worth the time to go through all of this again for a bike. Maybe I'll go screw with him sometime down the road when he isnt expecting it.
> 
> Custom Frame, F2 painted fork and King headset - $3k. Ill take it.


For those in the area, care to share the LBS name. I want to make sure I avoid this store.

Thanks.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

I'd buy the IF cause they still build steel forks to match their frames. But that's me and most people now want carbon forks. The main diff between the bikes (other than price) is that Serotta's stock geometry goes with a lower bb (8cm drop vs. around 7cm drop for IF), but if it's custom you can ask for anything you want.


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## c-record (Mar 18, 2004)

shaq-d said:


> serottas are race bikes. they sponsor a few, and the tour de france was won by greg lemond on one, maybe you've heard of him? i agree, i wouldn't pay that much. just why my serotta was acquired used. oh, and it's fantastic.
> 
> sd


I don't ever recall Greg Lemond riding a Serotta to win the TDF. I've known of Serottas in the pro peloton in secret, Tony Rominger raced one and Pascal Richard won the gold in the Olympics on one in '96. Serotta did make 7-11 bikes for the Huffy a while back.

Not slamming Serotta too much, I've owned three. Just get a bit tired of the Serottasti pedantism. Nice bikes indeed though and a good fit for many people. I loved things about each of mine. 

Good riding.


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## c-record (Mar 18, 2004)

rrl said:


> most people with an objective view can tell you that a serotta although the quality is high does not have the same level of craftmanship as seven moots or spectrum. even a significant number of serotta owners will admit to that. serottas ti bikes are clearly overpriced compared to say a spectrum ti. with a spectrum the middle man in the form of the dealer is cut out of the equation because you order directly from the custom builder so you don't have to pay a dealer $1500 for placing your order with the manufacturer.
> 
> another reason serottas cost so much is because of all the work they do to taper and butt their tubes with the top models being triple tapered and triple butted. other builders claim all that butting and tapering deadens the ride of the ti somewhat and some people claim that those fancy tubesets dont affect the ride as much as the wheelset does. but the bottom line is the looks of a bike are very important to a lot of people and a lot of people with money prefer the serotta name and design to other builders. if you ride a relatively common sized bike you can pick up a used serotta for a decent price compared to the retail price.
> 
> ...



Mmmn. Moooots....


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## 2melow (Aug 27, 2002)

*Yup....*



Henry Chinaski said:


> I'd buy the IF cause they still build steel forks to match their frames. But that's me and most people now want carbon forks.


I'm with you...sweet,sweet steel ride - fork made to match the custom frame - and very understated.


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## pugdog1 (Mar 23, 2004)

geeker said:


> I strongly agree. This shop tried to rip you off, and the owner seems like a crook. I wouldn't want to do any kind of business with them. The hassle and bad karma isn't worth it. Bag it and resubmit the order through a decent (non-arseholic) dealer.


I got the frame yesterday. Picked it up and walked out. 

I will be ordering the Zipp 303's and DA 10 online and assembling it myself. That trend will continue from this point forward.


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## sailorboy (May 3, 2004)

weiwentg said:


> the thing is, steel is much less expensive than titanium or carbon. I have no doubts that the CSI is a great bike, but I can get a Seven Alaris for $2k. titanium is hard to extract from ore and requires special equipment to weld. and granted the Alaris is straight gauge, but Seven can tune the tubeset quite well. I actually have an Alaris with an aero downtube, and it rides really nice (even though a lot of ti frames with aero tubes ride harsh). Seven's steel frame retails for $1.5k (?). for a super swanky, bike-of-the-gods steel frame, I'd think $1800 would be the upper limit for me.


Yes, but you really can't compare any other steel frame to a CSI unless it is built with lugs. If the seven steel frame is tig welded then I would argue that IT is the bike that is way overpriced for $1500. I don't know about ride differences, but lugs take a lot more time and skill to build into any steel frame. IMO, lugs are the only way to go if you are considering a steel frame of any kind. If you're interested in pure performance above all else, then stay away from steel in the first place.


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## seehunt (Feb 8, 2006)

*Is Serotta really more expensive?*




Sean OConnor said:


> Help! I finally had my fit done by someone competent (Fitwerx in Waitsfield, VT) and I need to get a custom frame. IF and Serotta are the two builders I've narrowed it down to. I'm looking at Ti vs. Steel. The Serottas are significantly more expensive, but they could get me a frame much sooner. I have heard that Serottas are over-priced for the quality of the product, though. Any help/experience would be appreciated!


I am near a purchase point also. And I am doing some last minute checking of prices.
The IF Crown Jewel is $3300 and an extra 300 for carbon seat stays
The Serotta Concours CS is $2650 with the seat stays (or without) same price
THe IF includes the Fork, but that is only worth $400, so the Serotta is still less expensive. Seven, Moots, and Merlin bikes appear to be similarly priced.
The least expesnive Ti bikes I found so far are Douglas, (only at Colorado Cyclist $899 on sale) but no carbon stays are available, and the welds at least appear to be of far lower quality (though the bikes may ride well).
Dean Bikes looked like a good option, but the local dealer had none in stock and when I mentioned I was looking at Serotta, said that Serotta and Merlin were far better bikes than the Dean, which he referred to as "entry level" (he may have been trying to push me toward the Merlin, which he carries). With no place to demo, and poor LBS support in my area, these look like dead ends.
Lightspeed has many "race ready" models, but has no carbon seat stay models at present, I don't know the overall impact of this but my rides so far seem to indicate that they enhance the ride comprt a bit. The company seems to value performance over comfort, good for some, not sure if it is for me. Prices on some bikes are lower, and quality is reportedly good. There are custom options, but no listed prices for them, but I want to demo one to compare ride quality to the Serotta. 
Remember Serotta has the Fierte as a stock bike, and the price is more competitive. I am going to demo the Fierte this week.
Probably most important, in my view, is that the Service at my LBS (Altheus, Rye, NY) is exceptional. They loaned me a demo Concours for several rides without any commitment on my part. I since demoed a top of the line Trek Pilot which was sweet, but missing that famous "Ti liveliness". 
The Serotta Fitting at Altheus was more than just a physical fitting, as they asked many questions about my physical condition, and assessed my flexibility and leg strength. They also gave me riding tips and advice that has proved to be invaluable. 
(I understand this is supposed to be a usual part of the Serotta fit system)
I have heard from other customers that such customer service continues long after the sale, which may mirror Altheus' mission of helping both recreational riders and weekend warriors to improve their riding skills and conditioning for both performance and enjoyment.
I also welcome advice, but to be honest, I don't mind spending a bit more to get the ride that feels best to me, and the service of a top notch LBS.


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## ghostzapper2007 (May 22, 2007)

pugdog1 said:


> It is 7:21am in NYC. At 9:00am I will be outside of the bike store that sold me this Serotta. I just looked at the Serotta website and I see custom geometry is included in the price of Concours CS.
> 
> I was charged:
> Frame CS -$2895.
> ...


You got hosed.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Dean bikes is very competitive on Ti frames and, can be sold direct to you. Their quality is unusually good for the price that you pay. The contact person there is John and, he can spend plenty of time with you on the phone should you decide to investigate this route. If one is on a budget, this is a very good route. 

Both IF and Serotta are good bikes. Not necessarily any better than Dean but, you do get a lot of dealer support since they both exclusively market their frames through their dealer network. You pay for this and it shows up in their price but, it can be beneficial especially to those that are starting out and are not sure what they need in fit or, the type of bike. 

The "fit" thing is actually quite controversial. If you submit a post solicting opinions on this, you will likely find just as many unsatisfied people as satisfied people. The problem is that the "fit" is still subject to the fitters idea of what type bike design is best for you and, may not match up with what you have in mind. You just have to be careful. They can tend to go to the extreme, putting you in too much of an upright riding position or, putting you on a frame too small and being scrunched up for that racy "aero" look. 

My recommendation is this: If you want to proceed through your dealer and be fitted, then following the fit process have him look at the standard geometry tables for the particular bike that you are looking at. If a standard bike in this model line can be adjusted to make this fit, then you are far better off purchasing the standard bike. It's much easier to resell later and, you are buying the frame makers ideal of design, and not the fitters. A typical bike has many adjustments available at hand so, unless one has some physical handicap, I don't believe a special bike is needed. Standard bikes will do just fine and, are a safer bet down the road. 

If you do decide to get fit and purchase a "special" bike, be sure that the dealer/company will resolve any issues that you might have. For instance, if you bike starts to wobble or shimmy when going 40 or 50 MHP downhill then they should take the bike back and fix this unsafe condition. If you buy a standard bike - lets say a Trek Madone for example, or a Look, you don't have to be concerned because these bikes are designed properly and will not shimmy. But those special bikes.....well, just be careful and get assurance from your dealer that this will get resolved if it surfaces. Some companies like Calfee and Moots that build very nice special bikes will guarantee their bikes will not wobble or shimmy. Its a non-negotiable riding characteristic, so to speak. All of them should make this guarantee. Don't get caught in a trap where this will not get resolved because "you" signed the bottom line of that fit sheet. You're paying top dollar and you need to get a top notch bike. 

The bike lines you are considering are pretty credible so, I think you will likely be fine. I still think standard geometry is the best if it can work but, you need to get what you want. We all have our wants and, in today's robust economy, there is no reason to not have what we want if we have the money.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Lots of bad info here......*



rnhood said:


> My recommendation is this: If you want to proceed through your dealer and be fitted, then following the fit process have him look at the standard geometry tables for the particular bike that you are looking at. If a standard bike in this model line can be adjusted to make this fit, then you are far better off purchasing the standard bike. It's much easier to resell later and, you are buying the frame makers ideal of design, and not the fitters. A typical bike has many adjustments available at hand so, unless one has some physical handicap, I don't believe a special bike is needed. Standard bikes will do just fine and, are a safer bet down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But other than that it was an OK post :mad2: 

Len


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

This thread is pointless now..

Indy Fab caught up and passed Serotta in pricing a while ago.

Serotta seems to be the better deal for many models now, although they are still offering differences in the frames so there is a good reason to choose one over the other if you want something really specific.


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