# TIG vs Lugged. Ride feel



## RJohn (Mar 24, 2009)

A friend and I are having a discussion on the ride characteristics of TIG vs lugged construction. Neither one of us has any data to confirm our conclusions. Just our experience from riding different bikes over the years. He believes that TIG welding produces a more rigid less springy bike. I on the other hand believe that lugged or TIG doesn't make a difference. It's the builders design etc that will determine how a bike feels. He doesn't like straight bladed forks either. I do. Any input for us to mull over would be appreciated.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I've never been able to tell the difference of TIG vs lugged.... 

Straight blade fork: My most comforable bike has a straight blade fork. Rake and headtube angle is more important than the design of the blades


----------



## CougarTrek (May 5, 2008)

My opinion:

A custom builder worth his(her) salt will be able to build you a bike to your desired ride quality specifications regardless of their preferred (or your chosen) method of welding/joining.


----------



## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

I'm with Dave H. on this one. No difference in ride between TIG and lugged, and fork design is based on aesthetics.


----------



## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

The joining method, Tig/lugs. doesn't make the difference in the ride qualities, design/geometry/dimensions do.


----------



## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

Don't notice any difference between my TIG Quattro Assi and lugged Mondonico, and if it matters both are similar level Columbus tubes but different vintages.

No experience with straight blade forks


----------



## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I definitely don't like the LOOKS of straight blade forks. I prefer curved on road bikes, and believe straight blades are best suited to MTB and BMX. Alas, my road bike has a straight blade though.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

RJohn said:


> A friend and I are having a discussion on the ride characteristics of TIG vs lugged construction. Neither one of us has any data to confirm our conclusions. Just our experience from riding different bikes over the years. He believes that TIG welding produces a more rigid less springy bike. I on the other hand believe that lugged or TIG doesn't make a difference. It's the builders design etc that will determine how a bike feels. He doesn't like straight bladed forks either. I do. Any input for us to mull over would be appreciated.



another thought that occured to me durning lunch.. 

You are basically limited a couple of sized/shaped lugs when building a lugged frame. This limits the size/shape of the tubing used. 

A TIG frame can use odd shaped/oversize tubing so in theory you could build a stiffer frame with TIG...

As I said in my original post, I haven't been able to tell the difference in ride quality but the TIG bikes I've ridden but all had round, small diameter tubing


----------



## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

Dave Hickey said:


> another thought that occured to me durning lunch..
> 
> You are basically limited a couple of sized/shaped lugs when building a lugged frame. This limits the size/shape of the tubing used.
> 
> ...


I honestly don't find any difference in stiffness between my TIG and lugged bike. The main triangle tubing diameters on both are nearly identical, the primary difference between them is the TIG bike seat stays are much fatter and not tapered, where the lugged bike's are pencil thin and taperred. Both forks are steel one unicrown the other lugged.


----------



## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

Dave Hickey said:


> I've never been able to tell the difference of TIG vs lugged....
> 
> Straight blade fork: My most comforable bike has a straight blade fork. Rake and headtube angle is more important than the design of the blades


Exactly what Dave wrote


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Decades ago, Bicycling Magazine did a comparison test with three frames; one TIG'd, one lugged, and one fillet brazed. Everything else was identical. They masked the joints and had the riders ride and try to identify which was which. They couldn't.


----------



## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Used own both types built by Serotta in the 80's.
I couldn't tell the difference.
If I recall correctly, the TIG welded one was slightly lighter, but I could be wrong....


----------



## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Lugs vs. TIG welded thread on Serotta Forum with contributions by David Kirk, Richard Sachs, Don Ferris, and others.


----------



## RJohn (Mar 24, 2009)

Thanks for the input everyone. That is pretty much what I was expecting.


----------



## Slim Again Soon (Oct 25, 2005)

I've got both in the garage, and I can't tell the difference (though my lugged frame is most handsome). Of course, I'm notoriously iron-seated.

From what I can tell, though, there are some sensitive asses on this board. Maybe one of them will weigh in.


----------



## Bill Bikie (Jul 24, 2010)

*Lugged: More artistic, lugs allow brazing which is kinder to frame*

Talk to a frame builder, and see what he or she thinks about lugged vs tig welding. I prefer lugged construction for a steel frame. The lugs allow the builder to be creative in design, and I believe the frame is stronger. Fillet brazing can also be used to join the tubes.
My custom steel frame will be lugged and silver soldered.

Text below was found on the internet

Why Lugs are Good
1.Lugs strengthen the frame at the joints
2.Lugs allow brazing, which we believe is the kindest, gentlest way to join tubes, and certainly the one which allows the easiest tube replacements.
3.Lugs are interesting to look at, and over the years there have been hundreds of styles, some proprietary, some generic, some plain, some intricate, many just plain beautiful. All lugs are interesting. When you look at a frame joint formed with lugs, there's something to look at.
Lugs used to be the preferred way to build fine bicycle frames. Then makers discovered tig-welds, and almost overnight (considering the long, 90-year reign of lugs, the 6-year period between about 1981 and 1987 constitutes overnight), tig-welding took over. It is a strong way to join tubes. It is efficient. It has proven its merit thousands of times over. A body can appreciate a good tig-weld, and should appreciate the skills that go into it. But a lug is a lug, and a tig-weld ain't.

Why We Still Use Lugs 

Our steel frames are lugged for two reasons. Lugs are stronger and lugs are beautiful. Did we mention that Lugs are stronger? Almost all mass-production steel frames produced today utilize cost-effective tig welding to join tubes. This prompts a question: why do we still use silver soldered lugged joining? There are two basic answers. First, properly fitted and soldered lugged joints are considerably stronger than joints created any other way. Second, they give us and other traditional builders a way of showing off. We can demonstrate, not only our soldering skill, but also how we believe a frame's details should appear. 

On Strength

In the late '80s, a team of scientists in the UC Davis engineering department undertook an in-depth look at the relative strengths of various steel joining techniques at the request of "Bicycle Guide" magazine. The three top frame builders associated with the three primary joining techniques were asked to supply joining samples using tubing supplied to the builders from the same mill run. Tom Ritchie provided the fillet-brazed samples, tig-welding was done by Gary Helfrich, and the silver soldered lugged samples were done by Spectrum's Jeff Duser. The samples were fatigue tested, in some cases to failure. In most cases, the joints did not fail. More often, the tubes failed at or near the joint. The team's study involved microscopic analysis of the crystal structure of joining zones, heat effected zones and failure sites. They concluded that all three joining techniques, done properly, are clearly of sufficient strength for the purpose of bicycle frame construction. The different results obtained from the samples resulted primarily in the heat-affected areas of the tubes themselves. Not surprisingly, the tubes that were soldered turned out to be stronger than the tubes that were welded or brazed. So, what does this mean in the real world? Frames built with silver soldered lugs will last longer than those that are fillet brazed and considerably longer than those that are welded. However, for most of our customers, the real practical difference is that lugged frames hold up in crashes better, and when it becomes necessary, they are much easier to repair.

So there is a lot of merit to Lug design - ease in tube repair, stronger, and arguably more beautiful.


----------



## vandalbob (Dec 13, 2001)

*Yup*



Kristatos said:


> Exactly what Dave wrote


What they said. Have had both style of frames from the same builder and noticed no difference.


----------



## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Tig welding works - it isn't pretty though. In the age of air hardening tubing, torch methods make more sense to maximize the tubing potential.

BTW, if anything, a lugged frame should be stiffer, if anything, because the lugs are like extremely thick butts on the ends of the tubes. But, in the real world...


----------

