# Trainer and Sufferfest



## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

Weather is starting to get a bit colder and I just purchased a kurt kinetic road trainer. I'm looking at purchasing some traininig videos from sufferfest to try to increase my performance through the winter. 

When I look at the videos, they seem to instruct you based upon a level of perceived exertion and cadence. I'd like to somehow quantify that level of perceived effort with either heart rate or wattage so I can structure my workouts.

I'm pretty new at cycling so my wattages and speeds are probably far below a season cyclist here but this is what I have observed.

The max speed I can sustain for about 30 seconds is about 30km/hr. I would rate this as a 10+ on my effort level. My heart rate will spike to about 190bpm when i do this. I would consider this as a short all out sprint. Would this be a reasonable benchmark for the 10 level when I do the sufferfest?

Another data point is when I'm pushing at about 20km/hr, my heart rate is at about 160bpm. I can sustain this level of power for long durations, but I would not call this a walk in the park. I'm still sweating and breathing quick. Would this be considered about a 5 on the scale?

I'm 39 years of age if that makes any difference.

I want to relate the level of effort to the speed I'm riding to try to keep it structured.


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## eschmunk (Jun 10, 2012)

Take a look at TrainerRoad.com. Pair it with an ANT sensor, HR monitor, speed/cadence, and you trainer and your set. It will sync workouts to suffer fest as well. After you do the FTP test your workouts are based on virtual power and not perceived effort.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestion, but my current sigma computer isn't ant+ compatible so I intended to track my effort based on either the speed I'm riding the kurt kinetic on or my heart rate.


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## misterwaterfallin (Sep 14, 2012)

What power meter do you have? You can pair some of them with your computer via a USB dongle. 
If that's not an option just make a zone chart based off of power/HR and go from there. Pretty simple


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't have a power meter. Kurt Kinetic has a chart that correlates speed to watts. So my intent is to create a chart showing what speeds will correlate to what level of effort so when the sufferfest tells me to do say 8/10, then I can relate that to a certain speed and keep that speed.

What I wasn't so sure of is when sufferfest tells you to do a 5/10 or an 8/10, what that really means in level of effort. If they start to tell me to do a 10/10 effort which my max power output is only at 30km/hr for more than 30 sec, I'd be toast. I want to make the work out productive, but achievable without puking at the end of the session.


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## jrabenaldt (Mar 3, 2008)

Puking at or near the end is a bonus!!!! 

Perceived effort works pretty well for me even when I may not feel my best.


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

Perceived effort can be judged over longer periods of time and shorter periods of time as well. Like you say a 10 would be holding 30km/hr for 30 secs but holding 25km/hr for 5 minutes could also be a 10. If they say do a 10/10 for x amount of time, you don't have to go all out at 30km/hr.

A sprint for the line could be a 10/10 but so could a 15km time trial, but the average speeds could be drastically different.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

crowaan said:


> Perceived effort can be judged over longer periods of time and shorter periods of time as well. Like you say a 10 would be holding 30km/hr for 30 secs but holding 25km/hr for 5 minutes could also be a 10. If they say do a 10/10 for x amount of time, you don't have to go all out at 30km/hr.
> 
> A sprint for the line could be a 10/10 but so could a 15km time trial, but the average speeds could be drastically different.


Exactly what I'm getting at... because I haven't done the sufferfest... I wasn't so sure how to gauge the level of effort. So If anyone has done it, it would be great to get a bit of insight to what they mean.

I'll probably just set some speeds and to start off and adjust it every session till I just puke at the end of the session. LOL


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

I found I just had to learn from experience. After a few tries you learn how hard you can go. My first time doing Downward Spiral I went way too hard and had to call it quits after the first set. I learned from that and backed it off a little bit so I could survive the second set too.


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

I set my HR zones in the gamin and double the number for a vague PE, so say a PE 8 is my zone 4 which is up to and including the LTHR number I got when I did a freil at home test. Look at the rubber glove, that is supposed to be a LTHR? It is a new sufferfest. If I am at 9, a am not looking at the screen if that is any consequence. The trouble of course is by the time you reach a number as per your HRM the sprint is over, so if you can make PE work for you it is all the better, for me, I have the kind of brain that tells me everything is a really big effort so I have to use extrinsic data LOL. I am also not great at trying to make myself puke so I might be a bit soft in comparison with blokes.


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## marcusc (Jan 31, 2013)

To avoid the woes you're facing, I ponied up and got a TacX Vortex trainer. Watts, cadence, heart rate, speed, etc., are all displayed on the handlebar computer and my laptop, which through the HDMI output displays the virtual reality environment on the T.V., while the stereo blares my favorite CDs. It's the only way I can stay motivated for more than 20 minutes at a time.

It's not outdoor riding, but it's the next best thing! 

They have them on Amazon/Ebay for about $750, which is much less than what a winter of interval training at the local gym would cost me.

Maybe it's something worth considering?


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## cyclo-man (Oct 4, 2013)

I use both the Sufferfest and Kurt Kinetic and am big fans of both. I would recommend you purchase the KK power meter for around $80. It's a great investment that is tied to the KK resistance and is accurate within 2-3% of some of the best power meters on the market. I did a CTS field test to determine my relative FTP (it's basically an 8-minute all out interval when you take your average watts and subtract 10%) I have my ipad attached to my bike handlebars with a case I got on Amazon running the videos with my KK power meter off to the side of it - and hold the intervals to a certain power level that's equates to the X/10 intensity as prescribed by the vids. Sufferfest.com has info on on how those intensity levels equate to FTP - for example, 6 is just below threshold, 7 is threshold, 8 is threshold plus 10% etc. So far it works well. You can also get the videos on Trainerroad I believe - but FWIW - I think the set up I described suits me fine.


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## DesnaePhoto (Jun 11, 2009)

Red90 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, but my current sigma computer isn't ant+ compatible so I intended to track my effort based on either the speed I'm riding the kurt kinetic on or my heart rate.


Mine is not either. Hence, buy the $30 stick that goes into a USB port. This works well.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

A little trial and error for yourself will help determine what is good for you. Look at your heart rate while riding at certain speeds and after awhile(weeks or months) you'll notice a correlation. When spring and summer comes you'll know you can sustain a certain speed which will equal a certain heart rate. that's good for cruising long distances and a certain level for long periods of time. After some time you'll get faster and your heart rate will not be as high and recover faster. god luck with your sufferfest. Intervals baby ....


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

wow, why is it so expensive to do interval training at the gym? $750 worth of interval training, yikes. Is it spin classes made of gold? LOL I just use the stationary bike some times and that works for my needs when I can't ride the rollers at home.


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Sufferfest has a video called Rubber Glove that is meant as a workout to determine your functional threshold. It covers the basics of the perceived exertion levels and then you hit them while watching the video.

I really liked the video and I'll be buying the rest of the series before the weather gets much colder. Hitting 10/10 is a lot easier while chasing Cancellara over the cobbles of Roubaix.


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## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

crowaan said:


> Perceived effort can be judged over longer periods of time and shorter periods of time as well. Like you say a 10 would be holding 30km/hr for 30 secs but holding 25km/hr for 5 minutes could also be a 10. If they say do a 10/10 for x amount of time, you don't have to go all out at 30km/hr.
> 
> A sprint for the line could be a 10/10 but so could a 15km time trial, but the average speeds could be drastically different.


I don't have all the videos, but in the ones I have a 10 rarely lasts more than 15 seconds. It's usually just the final sprint. 

What gets me is when they move in 1/2 step increments, like when they say the PRE at 90 rpm should be 8, then 8.5, etc. I just don't have that many gears!

And yes, if you don't feel close to puking at some point during the workout you just aren't working hard enough.


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## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

cyclo-man said:


> I use both the Sufferfest and Kurt Kinetic and am big fans of both. I would recommend you purchase the KK power meter for around $80. It's a great investment that is tied to the KK resistance and is accurate within 2-3% of some of the best power meters on the market. I did a CTS field test to determine my relative FTP (it's basically an 8-minute all out interval when you take your average watts and subtract 10%) I have my ipad attached to my bike handlebars with a case I got on Amazon running the videos with my KK power meter off to the side of it - and hold the intervals to a certain power level that's equates to the X/10 intensity as prescribed by the vids. Sufferfest.com has info on on how those intensity levels equate to FTP - for example, 6 is just below threshold, 7 is threshold, 8 is threshold plus 10% etc. So far it works well. You can also get the videos on Trainerroad I believe - but FWIW - I think the set up I described suits me fine.


I had the KK computer/power meter. While it may be accurate I have to say it's built like a POS. Very flimsy construction - surprising given how well constructed the trainers are. Mine broke after about 2 months. 

I might check out the inRide, though. That looks interesting.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

thanks for the info on the CTS and FTP... I think I need to do some reading on what these mean and how to use it.


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## marcusc (Jan 31, 2013)

evs said:


> wow, why is it so expensive to do interval training at the gym? $750 worth of interval training, yikes. Is it spin classes made of gold? LOL I just use the stationary bike some times and that works for my needs when I can't ride the rollers at home.


Haha, not quite. However their bikes are quite "sophisticated" and you have access to a coach and get to see how you're progressing and all that fun stuff. The deal breaker for me is that it doesn't even get you a gym membership. That's an extra $1200/year to work your core, etc.

Regardless, that's how I justified the purchase to myself, isn't that what you're supposed to do when buying fun stuff? 

It's likely worth mentioning that I get compensated partially with benefits, one of them being $1000/year to spend on "health & wellness". However, now that I have the trainer, I would have probably saved up and gotten one anyways, I really like it.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

IHEEYA  that's pretty cool that you have access to coaches and stuff. Good stuff and a plus on the $1k to spend. HAHA yeah I have to justify all my biking expenses one way or another  If we are having fun that's what counts. :thumbsup: That TacX Vortex trainer sounds pretty cool, wish I had one. Train hard(er) ...


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

Here's a good beginners guide on how to train with heart rate. Hope it helps. CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS -


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Yu have a trainer? Invest in a subscription in TrainerRoad! It will have "virtual power" as it has the power curves for most (certainly for your Kurt K) trainers. All you'd need is an ANT+ speed/cadence sensor, and you DO have power. TraineRoad even has Sufferfest workouts. It's really cool, and one hell of a training tool. So, for about 10 bucks a month for TrainerRoad, and about 40 for the speedcadence sensor, you can ride your brains out all winter, and NOT go "trainer insane". 

I was a confirmed trainer-hater, until last year.


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## fdghsrtws (Dec 17, 2006)

Just to echo those who have posted above, utilize the virtual power via trainer road. buy the ant+ sensor and stick. after doing the FTP test, everything in the sufferfest videos will be based on that...it's a no brainer, but expect to be destroyed base on your abilities.


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

As others said, it's about gauging YOUR effort. 8/10 is different for everyone and different for the length of time (2min VS 8min). Once you do the video a few times you'll figure it out. I to "blew up" after one set the first time I did a SufferFest video. Had to sit out the next interval then dial it back to get through.
I'm also not a fan of staring at the numbers. There is something to be said for getting on there and just drilling it by how you feel. You may be able to go harder that you think or see on the screen!


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## irish (Apr 8, 2004)

From my experiences with Sufferfest and Kurt Kinetic Road Machine
- Just try the videos. Don't worry too much about trying to figure out the exact speed or heart rates ahead of time. As others have pointed out, you'll invariably go too hard initially, cook yourself out, and only make it halfway through the video. Don't view that as defeat. After a couple of sessions, I quickly realized what my perceived efforts would be.
- Don't bother with the Kurt Kinetic Power Meter. It's not really power, but rather a computation based upon your speed. (P = (5.244820) * S + (0.019168) * S^3) Stationary Indoor Bike Trainer - Kinetic by Kurt You can pre-compute various power levels for given speeds and have the handy.
- The power curve is pretty precise, but not necessarily accurate. I'd recommend consistently pumping your tire up to a certain pressure as well as tightening the wheel on to the device a fixed number of times. This way your measurements/work efforts are consistent from one workout to the next. (For instance, I pump the rear tire to 105 psi, and give the knob 4 full turns one the wheel touches it)
- I did get Rubber Glove last May. From the average speed for the 20 minute test, I then computed the MPH speed targets for each the the RPE levels. I keep this insight when I do the other sessions
- In most cases, you can switch between the exertion levels by changing gears. the quarter/half level increments are a bit harder. I try to increase my cadence for those.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

irish said:


> From my experiences with Sufferfest and Kurt Kinetic Road Machine
> - Just try the videos. Don't worry too much about trying to figure out the exact speed or heart rates ahead of time. As others have pointed out, you'll invariably go too hard initially, cook yourself out, and only make it halfway through the video. Don't view that as defeat. After a couple of sessions, I quickly realized what my perceived efforts would be.
> - Don't bother with the Kurt Kinetic Power Meter. It's not really power, but rather a computation based upon your speed. (P = (5.244820) * S + (0.019168) * S^3) Stationary Indoor Bike Trainer - Kinetic by Kurt You can pre-compute various power levels for given speeds and have the handy.
> - The power curve is pretty precise, but not necessarily accurate. I'd recommend consistently pumping your tire up to a certain pressure as well as tightening the wheel on to the device a fixed number of times. This way your measurements/work efforts are consistent from one workout to the next. (For instance, I pump the rear tire to 105 psi, and give the knob 4 full turns one the wheel touches it)
> ...


You should try trainer road. You find your FTP and it has all the sufferfest videos pre programmed to show how hard to go. Much more efficient at training on a trainer.


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## irish (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks - I will soon. I had been waiting for TrainerRoad to get Bluetooth support for Windows (Bluetooth 4.0 Smart Support : Trainer Road). I just see more "pain" in my future.


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## izza (Jul 25, 2012)

I've just started using 4iiii Sportiiiis and Viiiiva arrangement. Can do indoor Sufferfest training and interval training outside.


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## mberthia (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm trying to understand better TrainerRoad before I sign up. When following the screen prompts for effort or watts, do you only adjust the gears while keeping the same cadence ?


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## simonaway427 (Jul 12, 2010)

mberthia said:


> I'm trying to understand better TrainerRoad before I sign up. When following the screen prompts for effort or watts, do you only adjust the gears while keeping the same cadence ?


No...it tells you to achieve a certain wattage (or speed) - that's it. How you do it is up to you.

That said, there are some workouts that recommend a certain cadence...so you need to find the proper gear that achieves both the target power and cadence.


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