# PDM doping- now with an adult thread title



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Report: Seven Out Of Eight PDM Riders Doped At 1988 Tour De France | Cyclingnews.com

Do we file this under the obvious or not care about the systemic doping. I'm still waiting to hear how this is all LA's fault.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

What point are you trying to make?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

and the eighth rider?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> What point are you trying to make?


I'm sorry. This is a forum about doping, right?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

*What the Fok?!*

You alluded to lance in the op. what is your point?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Fireform said:


> You alluded to lance in the op. what is your point?


That doping was there before during and after Lance. Let's focus on finding/fighting the root cause of doping. Or, doping dwarfs Lance. Don't get so distracted with Lance. Let's move on. Something to that extent. If so, I agree.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> and the eighth rider?


LeMond. I guess he wasn't technically a rider, but that's all I could come up with.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

*What the Fok?!*



woodys737 said:


> That doping was there before during and after Lance. Let's focus on finding/fighting the root cause of doping. Or, doping dwarfs Lance. Don't get so distracted with Lance. Let's move on. Something to that extent. If so, I agree.


So, continuing to bring up lance even in contexts that have nothing to do with him helps us all to move on? Got it. 

Because clearly what we all need to do is forget what happened, sweep it all back under the rug and resign ourselves to a future of fabricated pro wrestling. I mean, pro racing. 

I'm really more interested in Spades answer. Gallant of you to reply though.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> So, continuing to bring up lance even in contexts that have nothing to do with him helps us all to move on? Got it.
> 
> Because clearly what we all need to do is forget what happened, sweep it all back under the rug and resign ourselves to a future of fabricated pro wrestling. I mean, pro racing.
> 
> I'm really more interested in Spades answer. Gallant of you to reply though.


I'd get reported for a lot less. LOL, you can sure dish it out, eh? 

Number 1, most of you guys simply don't have a sense of humor. The thread title itself was a simple pun on one of the riders involved. 

However, most of you don't care about doping beyond LA. Others have pointed out that this forum does NOT care about doping since there have been dozens of cases and not a single thread. You can continue to single me out, but I know I'm not alone in my thoughts.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

spade2you said:


> I know I'm not alone in my thoughts.


Nope, you're not.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Fireform said:


> So, continuing to bring up lance even in contexts that have nothing to do with him helps us all to move on? Got it.
> 
> Because clearly what we all need to do is forget what happened, sweep it all back under the rug and resign ourselves to a future of fabricated pro wrestling. I mean, pro racing.
> 
> *I'm really more interested in Spades answer. Gallant of you to reply though.*


Not forget about Lance or what happened just that it's not central.

Regarding the bold, really man?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

woodys737 said:


> Not forget about Lance or what happened just that it's not central.
> 
> Regarding the bold, really man?


His response demonstrates 100% of what I've claimed is wrong with the doping subforum. No doubt I'll get another attack or two.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

OMGAAAAWD! Lance Armstrong didn't invent doping? 
Tell us more, Uncle Spade.

Look, former Soviet bloc teams doped back in the day. I got to see the old Soviet Track Cycling Team in action. Scary. Systemic doping has been around for a long time. Supposedly blood doping has been around since the 70s or 80s. 

But sometimes people talk about things by using a anecdote or example. Nixon. Jimi Hendrix. Benedict Arnold. Obviously not the only corrupt politicians, examples of talent cut short, or treacherous behavior. 

But for better or worse, they've become poster boys for a larger issue. 

Fair or not, Armstrong is becoming a poster boy too.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

spade2you said:


> I'd get reported for a lot less. LOL, you can sure dish it out, eh?
> 
> Number 1, most of you guys simply don't have a sense of humor. The thread title itself was a simple pun on one of the riders involved.
> 
> However, most of you don't care about doping beyond LA. Others have pointed out that this forum does NOT care about doping since there have been dozens of cases and not a single thread. You can continue to single me out, but I know I'm not alone in my thoughts.


I don't care about doping or Lance Armstrong. Nothing we say here will have any impact on doping, Lance, global warming or anything else. As such, the following opinions,among others, carry no more or less weight than anything else said on here:

1. Let's focus on cleaning up the sport.
2. You only care about Lance, not doping.
3. You only care about doping, not Lance.
4. What can we do going forward?
5. _________ doped.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

love4himies said:


> LeMond. I guess he wasn't technically a rider, but that's all I could come up with.


I would assume that they replaced him prior to the Tour?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Upload problems


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

mpre53 said:


> I would assume that they replaced him prior to the Tour?


He didn't ride in 1988, but as far as I know he was part of the team. I think he was recuperating from a gunshot wound.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

love4himies said:


> He didn't ride in 1988, but as far as I know he was part of the team. I think he was recuperating from a gunshot wound.


If you poke around the link in the OP, you'll find a link to an article in Dutch that has pictures of Fok's notebook. It has the TDF roster and something written alongside each name. Dutch isn't a language that I can read. At all. :lol:

Although you don't need to, to know what andriol is.

That's the image that I was trying to post. :mad2:

I think LeMond was trying to come back in 88 but suffered some kind of injury that required surgery, prior to the Tour.

Here's the link:

Uit het verzorgersboekje: het structurele dopinggebruik binnen de PDM-ploeg - Home - Volkskrant.nl


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Will you just drop it. No one's saying that doping is all Lance's fault. Just that he's a big doper and a fraud. 

Get over it. We know you're hurting. Get over it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rufus said:


> We know you're hurting.


A few of you guys would certainly wish that were true and probably take a little personal pleasure in that. Unless you're talking about the pain I feel that the humidifier in my guitar room failed spectacularly and got the carpet wet. In which case, yes, I'm sad that my guitar and bass necks might shift and that I have to buy a new humidifier due to the local climate.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> A few of you guys would certainly wish that were true and probably take a little personal pleasure in that. Unless you're talking about the pain I feel that the humidifier in my guitar room failed spectacularly and got the carpet wet. In which case, yes, I'm sad that my guitar and bass necks might shift and that I have to buy a new humidifier due to the local climate.


Lance. guitars. You're hijacking your own thread. Epic.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

mpre53 said:


> If you poke around the link in the OP, you'll find a link to an article in Dutch that has pictures of Fok's notebook. It has the TDF roster and something written alongside each name. Dutch isn't a language that I can read. At all. :lol:
> 
> Although you don't need to, to know what andriol is.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's quite a drug list. 

I think if it was me, though, I would have had some code words just in case I lost my little note book. I was told something I never forgot: Never put anything in writing that you don't want the whole world to know.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Yeah, sure, you don't care. But it seems every thread you start here is just some other variation of "Lance wasn't the only one, these guys are doping too".

So yeah, you're hurt and disappointed that Lance was doping, and got caught. It's ok. We understand. Grief is a process you have to work through.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

LeMond has been consistent in his views against doping. This article is from 1989:

Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond : Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone - Los Angeles Times


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Bluenote said:


> Lance. guitars. You're hijacking your own thread. Epic.


You have to give him credit....he can't make a salient point in the doping forum, but he's probably the first to ever hijack his own thread...


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

love4himies said:


> Wow, that's quite a drug list.
> 
> I think if it was me, though, I would have had some code words just in case I lost my little note book. I was told something I never forgot: Never put anything in writing that you don't want the whole world to know.


Yea, kind of wondered why he didn't decide to use code words and alternate names.


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## hankbuko (Feb 4, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> and the eighth rider?


Gerrie Kneteman


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

I think the root cause of doping has something to do with money and/or fame as many unsavory actions do. People initially start biking because they love the sport, but there comes a point when one realizes that they are very good at it and can profit from it. When you have the prestige and millions that come from winning as a professional, the pressure to gain every possible advantage mounts since there are several hundred others wanting the same thing.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

SauronHimself said:


> I think the root cause of doping has something to do with money and/or fame as many unsavory actions do. People initially start biking because they love the sport, but there comes a point when one realizes that they are very good at it and can profit from it. When you have the prestige and millions that come from winning as a professional, the pressure to gain every possible advantage mounts since there are several hundred others wanting the same thing.


But 99% of the peloton won't ever be rich riding their bike. They simply ride because they love to and can make a (modest) living off it. These guys don't want a desk job, they want to ride. They dope to be able to keep their job so they don't have to get a dead end desk job.

For the guys who are GC winners, I'd say the motivation to dope is definitely to win. Most cases, that's just not accurate.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> You have to give him credit....he can't make a salient point in the doping forum, but he's probably the first to ever hijack his own thread...


Gonna neg rep me *again* for it?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

SauronHimself said:


> I think the root cause of doping has something to do with money and/or fame as many unsavory actions do. People initially start biking because they love the sport, but there comes a point when one realizes that they are very good at it and can profit from it. When you have the prestige and millions that come from winning as a professional, the pressure to gain every possible advantage mounts since there are several hundred others wanting the same thing.


One doesn't have to be an athlete to cheat. The amount of cheating that went on in college was amazing and only continues to get more sophisticated.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

spade2you said:


> One doesn't have to be an athlete to cheat. The amount of cheating that went on in college was amazing and only continues to get more sophisticated.


Well ja. Cheating is all about personal gain.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

spade2you said:


> One doesn't have to be an athlete to cheat. The amount of cheating that went on in college was amazing and only continues to get more sophisticated.


And the parallels is interesting. I received a C in one course because I refused to cheat. The cheating was blatant; we corrected our own hmwk papers in class, I could see students in the front row, who left pages blank when they couldn't get the answer, writing down the correct answer as the professor did the problem on the board. In the back rows, people just passed around the correct solutions from those who figured it out already. The professor HAD to know this was happening, but chose to ignore it. I went to college to learn, most went to get good grades so they could get good jobs.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

There were a few odd things about the cheating that went on in professional school. The first and foremost was that in the end, the GPA didn't mean jack to employers at the time. I simply lived by the slogan that "C's get degrees". Had I sobered up sooner, I could have done quite well, which I did at the end. 

It was quite satisfying that many of the cheaters failed boards. A few of the professors were a little surprised at my score when compared to my meager GPA. Sadly, I think everyone eventually passed.

I was watching some sort of 20/20 special that had to do with cheating. (Nothing else was on). I was amazed at some of the methods used to cheat. I don't think we were smart enough to think of most of that stuff, although I simply wasn't in with that crowd. High tech crowd.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Gonna neg rep me *again* for it?


Lol it's kind of fascinating how he, himself, has a positive rep. I'd neg rep him again if I could.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Gonna neg rep me *again* for it?


Is this like, reverse psychology or something? Are you butthurt that you're not destructive enough to be worth negative repping or reporting? That you are more neighbor's dog barking and less Jessie James?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bluenote said:


> Is this like, reverse psychology or something? Are you butthurt that you're not destructive enough to be worth negative repping or reporting? That you are more neighbor's dog barking and less Jessie James?


No, he neg reps people he doesn't agree with. Pay attention.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

hankbuko said:


> Gerrie Kneteman


Classy, accuse a dead man!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Cableguy said:


> Lol it's kind of fascinating how he, himself, has a positive rep. I'd neg rep him again if I could.


As I would you. 

When you say stupid things, you get appropriate rep in response.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> No, he neg reps people he doesn't agree with. Pay attention.


That was pretty obvious. And you cry over this?

This actually could be a good thread. Were Pro teams doing systematized doping in the 80s? How much did Lemond know? Etc... Nothing shocking, but it puts some more context around the current 

Instead it seems to be devolving into a scene that got cut from Gossip Girl. 

Does anyone know if there is more evidence of this kind if team doping (German Olymipics aside) from the 80 s to Festina?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Bluenote said:


> That was pretty obvious. And you cry over this?
> 
> This actually could be a good thread. Were Pro teams doing systematized doping in the 80s? How much did Lemond know? Etc... Nothing shocking, but it puts some more context around the current
> 
> ...


I can more than imagine that the east germans had every sport doped to the gills. I'm reasonably sure that there was organized doping going on in the peloton prior to Festina, but the question is more how advanced were the programs?


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## Robert1 (Mar 27, 2012)

I dunno guys. Back in the late 80's, 90's and while LA was winning all his TdF's I always assumed, as well as some of the people I knew that followed pro racking closely, that doping was going on throughout and that LA was undoubtedly doping. None of this has been a shocker to me and I'm surprised that anyone really is. I always viewed doping to pro racing as steroids to bodybuilding. 




Bluenote said:


> That was pretty obvious. And you cry over this?
> 
> This actually could be a good thread. Were Pro teams doing systematized doping in the 80s? How much did Lemond know? Etc... Nothing shocking, but it puts some more context around the current
> 
> ...


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> As I would you.


Not if...

I NEG REP YOU FIRST!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Cableguy said:


> Not if...
> 
> I NEG REP YOU FIRST!


Ahh, aren't you mature.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Just looked at my history here. Only guy I ever gave neg rep to was the nimrod who started those "Suck Fuji Bike" threads in every freaking forum. :lol:

And only because he hit every flipping one of them, almost. It was like Groundhog Day.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

To go back on the topic which spade2you intentionally derailed after setting up, the doping at PDM in 1988 is important because it's (I think) the earliest recorded instance of team-wide blood-doping. 

Cyclingnews' doping section is usually a lot more into these things than here, so for those interested in translating the dutch from the notepad the thread over there has all the translations.


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## hankbuko (Feb 4, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> Classy, accuse a dead man!


I'm saying the article in the dutch newspaper claims that Kneteman was the only clean rider on the team that year.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

moskowe said:


> To go back on the topic which spade2you intentionally derailed after setting up, the doping at PDM in 1988 is important because it's (I think) the earliest recorded instance of team-wide blood-doping.
> 
> Cyclingnews' doping section is usually a lot more into these things than here, so for those interested in translating the dutch from the notepad the thread over there has all the translations.


Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read that.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> That doping was there before during and after Lance. Let's focus on finding/fighting the root cause of doping. Or, doping dwarfs Lance. Don't get so distracted with Lance. Let's move on. Something to that extent. If so, I agree.


be careful because whenever this point gets raised you are an apologist. The fact that problems only get solved when you look at root causes is lost.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Bluenote said:


> That was pretty obvious. And you cry over this?
> 
> This actually could be a good thread. Were Pro teams doing systematized doping in the 80s? How much did Lemond know? Etc... Nothing shocking, but it puts some more context around the current
> 
> ...


Actually Lemond knew quite a lot at the time. If I am not mistaken in 2010 or 2011 he (or his wife forget which) noted on his blog that he left PDM due to the internal doping program.

You can argue till the cows come home who did and who did not dope back then BUT it can't be argued that pretty much everyone at the time was on board with Omerta.

Edit: found it....



> Anna-Lisa was told that an autopsy would be performed It was a traumatic week for her with constant badgering by all and her waiting for his cause of death. She was so grief stricken that I placed many of the calls to PDM management asking for information. They wanted to talk to her, alone. I was very protective because I knew each of these men. We had a past.We left that team for their promotion of doping and it had been bitter..


Doping and the Story of Those We Love


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

The revenge of Rasmussen and the end of rabobank... - Page 39 - CyclingNews Forum
The wonderful thing about "The Clinic" is that very good information is disseminated everywhere, lost in a sea of crappy arguing in 100+ pages threads. The sky thread over there, if you take the time to read it all, should pretty much convince anyone of their culpability, if you go and take the trouble to read the 50 relevant posts in 2,000...


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

burgrat said:


> LeMond has been consistent in his views against doping. This article is from 1989:
> 
> Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond : Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone - Los Angeles Times


Thing is stuff like that is just "paper". Many riders now caught out for doping have been found to have statements similar to that with interesting timing...

here is the important bit



> Stanko made the allegations in a telephone interview from Paris, where LeMond, representing the ADR team of Belgium, had made a remarkable comeback 24 hours earlier to win the Tour de France, the sport's most prestigious race, for the second time since 1986.


Now please I am not saying even a little that Lemond doped. Only that such a comment made, especially by one's attorney, in the context of breaking a contract and then of that win against a guy who later admitted to doping himself, is not something we have not seen stated by people we later found out to be using some form of performance enhancing practice.

Anymore someone is either caught or they are not. If they are not caught then they are innocent. Other than that I think history has shown us statements, no matter how consistent, mean very little most of the time. Cynical? Yes sir.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

We understand what you are saying and what you aren't. We understand that you think you are the smartest guy in the room. It's disingenuous.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Fireform said:


> We understand what you are saying and what you aren't. We understand that you think you are the smartest guy in the room. It's disingenuous.


No I just think logically. With all the lies we have been told time and time again we have one of two choices. As my baseline I assume Lemond did not dope. 

Why do I do so? Well look at what we have. We have a sport where many of the greatest Champions either admitted to or got caught doping, all the way back to it's origin as a sport. We have the head of WADA saying they will never win the war against doping. 

With all that I have one of two choices. The first option is that I can embrace to the idea of innocent until proven guilty, within th context of the anti-doping regime which boils down to "trust but verify." In this way when the next Lemond comes along I can genuinely cheer his success.

If I don't do that I am now reduced to one of the following. Give up and accept doping as a tool of sport, simply turn my back on it in disgust and walk away or allow my subjective likes and dislikes for an athlete to cloud my judgement and either cheer or vilify with no objective metric involved. I do not find these last options acceptable. Do you?


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

I tend to agree here with Badge118. In light of the fact that the UCI either can't catch dopers with tests or picks and chooses who fails test based on some hidden agenda; fans are left with picking and chosing who is clean and who isn't based on suspicious performances or personal likes and dislikes. All one has to do, like Moskowe said, is spend and afternoon over at the clinic picking out the nuggets from the prevailing cesspool. 

I for one am getting tired of the total fixation on Wonderboy. Yet if one states that doping existed before Pharmstrong, and sure as hell is going on even today....well then, batten down the hatches because here it comes!

Let's look at this with a little perspective. How many winners of the TdF since Armstrong's last win*, do we know are absolutely clean? Landis, busted. Contador, busted. Sastre working with Riis, hmmmmmmmm. Evans, tested by Ferrari and working for Och, hmmmmmm. Wiggins, and the PR snafu that is Brailsford and team Sky; including the cluster orgy that is the hiring of Dr. Leinders, hmmmmmm.

So, I for one have moved on from Armstrong. I usually just post semi sarcastic drivel in the myriad Armstrong threads. I had much rather spend my time on rooting out the cheats and ending today's Omerta than endless piling on of Armstrong or constant speculation on Greg Lemond. As always though, YMMV.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

"You have given too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

There's a few things that could be done by a motivated cycling authority to solve a ton of problems. Stop all ex-dopers from getting team positions, make power data public...Unfortunately we don't have a motivated cycling authority. 

There's also a few things the pros could change in their culture to solve a ton of problems. The young guard is already doing it, as exemplified by guys like Phinney, Kittel and Greipel, who come out strong against doping. Unfortunately the old guard is still in charge, and drivels on about how "the past stays in the past. We are clean now." 

The way things are now, I just watch pro cycling for entertainment, especially in these cold winter times. I see Greipel destroying a finish, and I just want to hop on my bike and go do a crit. I see Contador attack a tour stage 90k from the finish, and I think, the man has balls. I'll do that in my next race.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

If you read the link the OP furnished, here lies the heart of the problem. Theunisse tested positive for testosterone (his nickname back then was "testo") and he received "a 10 minute time penalty". That was the thinking back then, it was no big deal, just part of being professional. Alot of those guys are still calling the shots in pro cycling.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

badge118 said:


> be careful because whenever this point gets raised you are an apologist. The fact that problems only get solved when you look at root causes is lost.


Not to beat a dead horse here...

Lance is guilty of being a doping and a liar. However, when the USADA report calls him out for running "the most sophisticated doping conspiracy in the history of sport", I think it's clearly hyperbole.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Read an article a while back in ProCycling which described how a Danish rider died from a combination of amphetamines and heat stroke at a Giro many moons ago (sorry - don't have sticky brain for dates). But it was back in the day when National teams rode the Giro and spare tubes were carried over your shoulders.

Plenty of doping (and other cheating) stories that go back to the early days of bicycle racing in Europe. So the point that doping predates Armstrong and US Postal I think is fairly obvious. Should we be surprised that other teams also had team sponsored doping programs? Of course not.

Armstrong is catching the flak now for various reasons - one of those the clearly demonstrated "fact" that among the Pro Teams, to our knowledge, Armstrong had the most sophisticated and successful program (7 TdF victories as a result) - it should be no surprise to anyone that Lance is the sport's whipping boy at the moment - wait a while, someone else will steal that crown.

For now, the Lance fan boys will have to accept that their boy will be the point of reference for most doping discussions - on these boards as well as out there in the real world.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

LostViking said:


> Read an article a while back in ProCycling which described how a Danish rider died from a combination of amphetamines and heat stroke at a Giro many moons ago (sorry - don't have sticky brain for dates). But it was back in the day when National teams rode the Giro and spare tubes were carried over your shoulders.
> 
> Plenty of doping (and other cheating) stories that go back to the early days of bicycle racing in Europe. So the point that doping predates Armstrong and US Postal I think is fairly obvious. Should we be surprised that other teams also had team sponsored doping programs? Of course not.
> 
> ...


LostViiking, I agree 100% with your post, except for the last line. I fully recognize that out in the real world. Pharmstrong will be the point of reference for doping. But here, we consider ourselves the "cognoscenti". We should be able to rise above "what do I do with my signed Postal jersey?", or "what did Sheryl know?", to look at current items like the lid being blown off Rabobank, or the curious case of Brad Wiggins. Does wanting to move past Wonderboy and look at 2013 make me a "fan boy"?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

LostViking said:


> For now, the Lance fan boys will have to accept that their boy will be the point of reference for most doping discussions - on these boards as well as out there in the real world.


Don't you _like_ Pantani? The whole "fanboy" thing is very underhanded and reflects that more than a few folks here might be passive aggressive angry middle aged men. I said "might" because it might offend a few. OTOH, the fact that this would offend people might indicate I was right.........

Sorry I was absent yesterday. I actually worked at work then went to bed early.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm sorry if my post implied that we should ignore other dopers/doping programs - that was not my intention. Lance is better known than any Rabobank rider to the general public - therefore he will remain the point of reference.

You are right in asserting that we need to look beyond just Lance - he is not the be-all and end-all of doping - merely it's highest profile practicioner.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

No apology needed. I just get weary sometimes with the all Lance/all the time feel sometimes. I guess I really need some 60 degree days coupled with some "wind therapy"!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

spade2you said:


> Don't you _like_ Pantani? The whole "fanboy" thing is very underhanded and reflects that more than a few folks here might be passive aggressive angry middle aged men. I said "might" because it might offend a few. OTOH, the fact that this would offend people might indicate I was right.........


Hi Spade - yeah I like Pantani - even with his faults - but I'm willing to recognize these and live with the facts - attempts at distracting others from these by saying "Oh yeah, but others were cheating too!" seems fruitless to me. Marco's choices were his own and he is responsible for what he did. I'm sure people will continue to like Lance (feel free to insert Coppi, Mercx etc.) - no matter what we or anyone else thinks of him.

Back in the day, before the confession, one would get stomped here by Lance Fanboys (yeah, I used the term "Fanboy") if you so much as hinted that you thought Lance was doped. These days, they just want you to stop talking about Lance altogether.

Essentially, whenever Lance's name comes up, it's "Yeah but, look at those other guys!"

We need to look at the other guys, no doubt - doesn't mean Lance can't be a part of that conversation.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

The Tedinator said:


> No apology needed. I just get weary sometimes with the all Lance/all the time feel sometimes. I guess I really need some 60 degree days coupled with some "wind therapy"!


And then there's the incessant whining about neg repping, reporting and name calling. Some of us need to HTFU.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

LostViking said:


> Read an article a while back in ProCycling which described how a Danish rider died from a combination of amphetamines and heat stroke at a Giro many moons ago (sorry - don't have sticky brain for dates). But it was back in the day when National teams rode the Giro and spare tubes were carried over your shoulders.


Let me google that for you
1960 Olympic Team Time Trial - Knud Enemark Jensen died from a combination of amphetamine & searing temperatures on top of a head wound.



> Plenty of doping (and other cheating) stories that go back to the early days of bicycle racing in Europe. So the point that doping predates Armstrong and US Postal I think is fairly obvious. Should we be surprised that other teams also had team sponsored doping programs? Of course not.
> 
> Armstrong is catching the flak now for various reasons - one of those the clearly demonstrated "fact" that among the Pro Teams, to our knowledge, Armstrong had the most sophisticated and successful program (7 TdF victories as a result) - it should be no surprise to anyone that Lance is the sport's whipping boy at the moment - wait a while, someone else will steal that crown.
> 
> For now, the Lance fan boys will have to accept that their boy will be the point of reference for most doping discussions - on these boards as well as out there in the real world.


Difference is none of those cases were as malignant as Wonderboy's scam. Armstrong isn't just another doper. He is instigator, coercer & bully extraordinaire. That's why he deserves all the flack he is getting now plus a bit more.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Fireform said:


> And then there's the incessant whining about neg repping, reporting and name calling. Some of us need to HTFU.


I definitely need to HTFU. Did I not just whine 'cause it isn't 60 degrees outside? I saw a couple of dudes out on the road last week when the wind chill was single digits. I am such a whuss!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*[email protected]+45f*



The Tedinator said:


> I definitely need to HTFU. Did I not just whine 'cause it isn't 60 degrees outside? I saw a couple of dudes out on the road last week when the wind chill was single digits. I am such a whuss!


Ha, temperatures here in Maryland have taken a nose-dive as well, I'm gonna be my own best Fanboy and stay off the bike until this passes. I'll get back to my HTFU Program when doing so won't get me frostbite - [email protected]+45F!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Thanks ultimobici for finding that - I was sure that happened before WWII!


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

East coaster here too LostViking. WNC to be exact. It is 25 here with snow in the forecast. Going to head to the man cave and spin, which I will enjoy about as much as watching a rerun of the Lance and Oprah show!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

The Tedinator said:


> East coaster here too LostViking. WNC to be exact. It is 25 here with snow in the forecast. Going to head to the man cave and spin, which I will enjoy about as much as watching a rerun of the Lance and Oprah show!


Indoor Trainer = Self-inflicted Torture Device

Mine is in storage, so my only option is the YMCA - I'd rather be throttled by whineing Lance Fanboys! :cryin:


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

LostViking said:


> Thanks ultimobici for finding that - I was sure that happened before WWII!


His death was the catalyst for testing in the olympics, IIRC.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

The Tedinator said:


> East coaster here too LostViking. WNC to be exact. It is 25 here with snow in the forecast. Going to head to the man cave and spin, which I will enjoy about as much as watching a rerun of the Lance and Oprah show!


I live in NH, this morning it was single digits (-12 w/wind chill). I haven't seen anyone on a bike since the cold front came in. I need to HTFU and get on my trainer before March comes and I get passed by some ten yr old on a bike from Kmart.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I can deal with a trainer and rollers during the winter. Having to do my riding indoors this summer due to work and a newborn made me really miss outdoor riding.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

The Tedinator said:


> East coaster here too LostViking. WNC to be exact. It is 25 here with snow in the forecast. Going to head to the man cave and spin, which I will enjoy about as much as watching a rerun of the Lance and Oprah show!


Here in coastal Mass, hasn't broken 20 for more than an hour since Monday (and that short window was during work hours). I'm at the point where I might break out the old, junky cruiser and throw a pair of ski pants on, and ride in boots. :lol:


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

HTFU Danish Style

Interesting reading:

Danes Bike


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

moskowe said:


> To go back on the topic which spade2you intentionally derailed after setting up, the doping at PDM in 1988 is important because it's (I think) the earliest recorded instance of team-wide blood-doping.
> 
> Cyclingnews' doping section is usually a lot more into these things than here, so for those interested in translating the dutch from the notepad the thread over there has all the translations.


What about the US Olympic team in '84?


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

T


LostViking said:


> HTFU Danish Style
> 
> Interesting reading:
> 
> Danes Bike


Denmark in general and Copenhagen particularly are super pro bike. The have separate bike only lanes and bikes have their own turn at traffic lights (walk, bike, car). 

When I lived in Copenhagen I frequently biked from my home in the burbs to the center of downtown. I also enjoyed the local brew, which made the ride more pleasant.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

I meant in a Grand Tour. But I think I'm wrong regardless. I read somewhere else in the clinic that in the years before some teams had already dabbled with non-enriched blood doping. Can't be bothered to go and find it again though.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

moskowe said:


> I meant in a Grand Tour. But I think I'm wrong regardless. I read somewhere else in the clinic that in the years before some teams had already dabbled with non-enriched blood doping. Can't be bothered to go and find it again though.


I know Wikipedia can be lame, but this article cites a source. 

Patrick McDonough (cyclist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

LostViking said:


> Read an article a while back in ProCycling which described how a Danish rider died from a combination of amphetamines and heat stroke at a Giro many moons ago (sorry - don't have sticky brain for dates). But it was back in the day when National teams rode the Giro and spare tubes were carried over your shoulders.
> 
> Plenty of doping (and other cheating) stories that go back to the early days of bicycle racing in Europe. So the point that doping predates Armstrong and US Postal I think is fairly obvious. Should we be surprised that other teams also had team sponsored doping programs? Of course not.
> 
> ...


Actually if you look at some of the stuff that Telekom was doing, it looks like "The most sophisticated we have seen" was a bit of hyperbole. They had doping via Doctors at the University of Freiburg Clinic for goodness sakes. Those unfamiliar, the University is one of the leading research universities in Europe and the medical school is one of the most popular in Germany and numerous Nobel Prize winners in physiology and medicine are associated with the faculty of the institution.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Agreed that "the most sophisticated doping ring" was a little bit of an exaggeration, possibly to further anger the middle aged white guys who suddenly care about cycling and doping. 

Back to damage from doping, several teams made riders very ill from transfusing the wrong blood bags on the wrong riders. Then there was Ricco last year. Even more proof that transfusions aren't a good idea. I find it a little laughable how Kelme botched a team transfusion when they could have been using EPO with a lot less risk.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

badge118 said:


> Actually if you look at some of the stuff that Telekom was doing, it looks like "The most sophisticated we have seen" was a bit of hyperbole. They had doping via Doctors at the University of Freiburg Clinic for goodness sakes. Those unfamiliar, the University is one of the leading research universities in Europe and the medical school is one of the most popular in Germany and numerous Nobel Prize winners in physiology and medicine are associated with the faculty of the institution.


They were careful with the lawyering "most sophisticated _we have seen_." Maybe the German Federation should have investigated Telekom more, but they didn't. Not much the USADA can do about that.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Bluenote said:


> They were careful with the lawyering "most sophisticated _we have seen_." Maybe the German Federation should have investigated Telekom more, but they didn't. Not much the USADA can do about that.


Oh you are right the wording was careful, however they knew exactly what reaction they would get by many missing that distinction.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

badge118 said:


> Actually if you look at some of the stuff that Telekom was doing, it looks like "The most sophisticated we have seen" was a bit of hyperbole. They had doping via Doctors at the University of Freiburg Clinic for goodness sakes. Those unfamiliar, the University is one of the leading research universities in Europe and the medical school is one of the most popular in Germany and numerous Nobel Prize winners in physiology and medicine are associated with the faculty of the institution.


I just watched tonight's 60 Minutes piece as well as the 60 Minute overtime video on the web. I am also wondering about "The most sophisticated doping program in the history of sport" (which I think is the direct quote). Hyperbole is one thing, but this is blatantly untrue. East Germany in the 80s? China today? And like you said, Telekom/TMobile might even have been a "better" program.

And then you have the "one in a million chance" of a non manipulated BP profile on his 2009-2010 return. Yet he only registered a 4 on the L'Equipe leaked list that is supposed to have been based on the BP. Are these two items lies from the good guys? Lawyerese? Why say these things? You have an airtight reasoned decision. Why give Wonderboy and his legal eagles any possible ammo to question USADA's motives?

Although in the grand scheme of things, these are two very small items in the Armstrong doping narrative, they bug me a little because it makes me doubt that Tygart, USADA, WADA, and the MSM aren't being 100% up front with their side.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

The l'equipe leaked list, that was supposedly prepared by the UCI ? Yeah, I'm sure we can trust that one. It's not like the UCI had protected Armstrong numerous times in the past, or had a vested interest in seeing his comeback succeed...

The first thing is more annoying. As you pointed out, the East German doping program and the Chinese program are/were definitely more sophisticated. But there's nothing like a little drama to make things seem more impressive


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

badge118 said:


> Oh you are right the wording was careful, however they knew exactly what reaction they would get by many missing that distinction.


Well, I think some of that might depend on your point of view. Armstrong allegedly was given insider knowledge of how the tests worked, got tests covered up for donations and knew when the testers were coming. 

Maybe that is the most sophisticated in terms of corruption of the system, or methods and intentions to evade detection.

The East Germans weren't dodging out of competition tests. And Telekom isn't accused of bribing anyone...err.... Giving them a donation.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

LostViking said:


> Read an article a while back in ProCycling which described how a Danish rider died from a combination of amphetamines and heat stroke at a Giro many moons ago (sorry - don't have sticky brain for dates). But it was back in the day when National teams rode the Giro and spare tubes were carried over your shoulders.
> 
> Plenty of doping (and other cheating) stories that go back to the early days of bicycle racing in Europe. So the point that doping predates Armstrong and US Postal I think is fairly obvious. Should we be surprised that other teams also had team sponsored doping programs? Of course not.
> 
> ...


My all-time favorite quote involving doping. Written during the _*1924*_ TDF:




> "You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15. We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...'
> 
> From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..."
> <dl><dd>
> ...


Henri Pélissier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

cda 455 said:


> My all-time favorite quote involving doping. Written during the _*1924*_ TDF:
> 
> 
> 
> Henri Pélissier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


could you remind us also what the wada code was in 1924?


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

den bakker said:


> could you remind us also what the wada code was in 1924?


Well WADA wasn't founded until after LA's first win. Should he still maintain the 1999 Jersey? 

That aside you really need to take some basic Psychology, Sociology and History classes. Look at Prohibition laws in the US vs in Islamic countries as an example. In the US prohibition failed. Why? Because there was a long history of alcohol consumption. It was very strongly ingrained in our Culture. There has always been a Prohibition against alcohol in Islamic Countries however so there such laws are much more successful.

How is this relevant? Doping was ingrained in cycling culture, jist like Alcohol consumption in the US. People did not say "hey we never heard of doping before but this EPO stuff sure sounds good, let's shoot up." Instead they were in a sport where people were already doping and they said "hey this stuff sounds a lot more effective lets try this instead."

The battle WADA fights is a worthy one worth fighting imo BUT you have NO prayer of winning it unless you go after the doping culture that says it is acceptable and you can only do this if you acknowledge it's history.

Why do you think WADA supports a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? Because you need to get the the heart of the culture which is older than November of 1999 and you don't do this by picking off individual athletes.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

badge118 said:


> Well WADA wasn't founded until after LA's first win. Should he still maintain the 1999 Jersey?
> 
> That aside you really need to take some basic Psychology, Sociology and History classes. Look at Prohibition laws in the US vs in Islamic countries as an example. In the US prohibition failed. Why? Because there was a long history of alcohol consumption. It was very strongly ingrained in our Culture. There has always been a Prohibition against alcohol in Islamic Countries however so there such laws are much more successful.
> 
> ...


_Egg-Zac-Lee!_



You get it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

badge118 said:


> Well WADA wasn't founded until after LA's first win. Should he still maintain the 1999 Jersey?
> 
> That aside you really need to take some basic Psychology, Sociology and History classes. Look at Prohibition laws in the US vs in Islamic countries as an example. In the US prohibition failed. Why? Because there was a long history of alcohol consumption. It was very strongly ingrained in our Culture. There has always been a Prohibition against alcohol in Islamic Countries however so there such laws are much more successful.
> 
> ...


Wait 
What? 
There was doping before LA? wtf
Why did nobody know this or talk about it? thanks for this nugget of insight, it's appreciated. 
as for getting somewhere, agreed. Going after the ring leaders and the doctors seem to be a good place to start. but I guess this is what happened in the case that involved LA.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

den bakker said:


> Wait
> What?
> There was doping before LA? wtf
> Why did nobody know this or talk about it? thanks for this nugget of insight, it's appreciated.
> as for getting somewhere, agreed. Going after the ring leaders and the doctors seem to be a good place to start. but I guess this is what happened in the case that involved LA.


Indeed. The thing is there are pre-1999 and pre-EPO people still involved in the sport. Bringing this to light can be very effective in being part of a cultural shift. History has shown that all the punitive enforcement in the world can't accomplish this shift, one has to bring that culture and it's history into the light.

My only point is to make sure people do not become myopic looking at specific people(s) they want to hammer and miss this corrupt culture that perpetuates the next generation of dopers.


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