# Relaxed Geometry Road Bikes



## bobp55 (Feb 15, 2015)

*Help - Relaxed Geometry Road Bikes*

I used to ride a Trek 2300 road bike but now at age 59 I find it too aggressive for me. So I started looking for a relaxed geometry (aka endurance) road bike. I've found various articles for such bikes and note the suggestions from other posters here about relaxed geometry bikes. 

But when I look at the pictures for these bikes, I always see a 3-4 inch drop from the saddle to the handlebars. That's not my idea of a relaxed more upright riding position.

You can check out some pics here to see what I mean
Buyers guide: 2015 sportive and endurance road bikes +13 of the Best | road.cc

On my Trek 2300, I had about a 2 inch drop and on my mountain bike, which I find a lot more comfortable, the saddle is at the same height as the handlebars. 

So where are the relaxed/endurance bikes with a more upright position?

Bob P


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I have a 2014 Trek Domane 4.7, and at 62 I love it. With the taller stack and shorter reach, it is definitely more upright than a Domane or Emonda in H2 geometry. The Domane frame (58 cm) has stack / reach of 61.1 /38.0 cm; the Madone and Emonda are ~59.6 / 39.1. So the Domane frameset starts out designed for a more upright position, and from there it is fitting.

Don't get overly concerned about pics showing a raised saddle relative to handlebars on road bikes. Those are marketing pics, and don't reflect anyone's proper fit. From the pictured position you can go either way in seat-bar drop. A good fitting session with a competent fit tech can make the adjustments to get you in the optimum position for your needs and comfort. For me that led to raising the handlebars via a stem swap. The net result is my saddle is about 1cm above the bars. Works for this old man, but I will be dropping that another cm in the next month or so (time in the saddle has been working, s predicted by my fitter).

Proper fitting for you and your needs is the key. I'm going to suggest two basic options to explore. One is to find an endurance geometry frame (look at stack and reach numbers) that you really like, then pay for a good dynamic fitting session with a good fit tech. Expect to pay about $300 for the fitting. The second option, if you're really concerned, is to do a session with a fit tech on a fit bike (e.g., a Trek Precision Fit), then use the parameters from that to get the right bike. A good fitter will have the tools and fit bike to do that, regardless of whether it's Trek, Specialized, or any other brand. 

If you can't find a production bike you find suitable then there is the custom option.

Before you go looking for a new bike solution you might want to consider the possibility of refitting with your current bike, if you are otherwise satisfied with it. You may, however, be limited in how far you can go with the current frame / fork.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

bobp55 said:


> I used to ride a Trek 2300 road bike but now at age 59 I find it too aggressive for me. So I started looking for a relaxed geometry (aka endurance) road bike. I've found various articles for such bikes and note the suggestions from other posters here about relaxed geometry bikes.
> 
> But when I look at the pictures for these bikes, I always see a 3-4 inch drop from the saddle to the handlebars. That's not my idea of a relaxed more upright riding position.
> 
> ...


Hey Bob,
They take those pictures with the seat post extended to make the bike look sexier. The height of the seat will depend on you and your relationship to that particular sized bike.
Many of the "relaxed" bikes have similar geometry. These days many geometry tables will give you a reach and stack measurements. This is an easy way to determine how stretched out each frame will be given the same set up of bars, stem and saddle height. 
If a bike you are considering doesn't have this, you can compare 3 numbers. Head tube length, top tube length, and Seat Tube Angle.
For every half degree (+/-) steeper the STA from a comparable bike, you can add on a half centimeter to the top tube length to the steeper STA bike. 
I have a Giant Defy Advanced, and it is a great bike. I had a Specialized Roubaix, but it was a little relaxed in it's geometry for me, and didn't give the quick steering of the Giant.
The Treks tend to have a little lower bar position if my recollection is true. 
Remember there is a balance to bar positon, the higher, and farther back they are (toward the saddle) the less planted and secure the bike will feel, because there is less weight over the front tire. This will effect how the bike handles, and you may find the bike will do wheelies on steeper slopes.


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## bobp55 (Feb 15, 2015)

ibericb,

Thank you for such a good and thorough reply. It gives me a lot to work with.

I've given my 2300 to my son-in-law so it will go to good use. Besides the geometry, that bike was getting too aggressive in the steering and ride for me. It's pretty rigid. It served me well for quite a while but I've out aged it.

Bob P


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

bobp55 said:


> ibericb,
> 
> Thank you for such a good and thorough reply. It gives me a lot to work with.
> 
> ...


Know and appreciate that awakening well. Same happened to me. Love my Domane. There are many new endurance options for all the major brands. I suspect you'll be able to find one you love, and then get a good fit, a dynamic fit with a good tech. Fit is the key.


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

You might want to try this review on RBR website listed below:

$3k Endurance Bike Shootout: And the winners are? | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

IT was an excellent resource for me for relaxed geometry bikes in the $3k range as of Aug 2014 for several major manufacturers. As you can read by the article most of the major bike folks make them and this article gives all the details.

I too am an old guy who like to ride a a nice CF bike but doesn't care to be bent over too far. I recently upgraded and ended up with a 2014 giant Defy Advanced 0 that I bought as new old stock. 

The frame fits very well and is a nice mix between a light fast bike without being so bent over its uncomfortable. I ended up with the M/L size (which is comparable to a 55-56CM) and kept all the spacers under the stem, and am using the stock giant stem. I ride the bike with the top of my seat even with the top of my handlebars. The bike sets up and rides very comfortable this way.

I also ride it with 25 MM wide tubeless tires at about 80/85 psi and it rides great (on 25 mm wide X 40 deep Carbon rims). Its a great set up for me and very comfortable and the bike is extremely responsive.

Don't think that everybody has to ride with the the seat 4" above the bars (although this may work for some).


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Don't get overly concerned about pics showing a raised saddle relative to handlebars on road bikes. Those are marketing pics, and don't reflect anyone's proper fit.


Except maybe Jen Voigt.. 


Although until I was well in my 50s I still had the bars 4" below the saddle. But like an all out sport motorcycle, it is best for attacking in turns. The times you are not attacking in turns is gets tiresome as the bones get old. 

It was a femoral nerve injury that had me raise the bars almost even so I could even ride. And the bars have never got back down to where they were prior. My bike looked racier before, but that is nonsense in real life for me as an old fart. 

As to 'endurance' geom, I have two Roubaix, a 2006 and 2014 Disc. I also have a Scott Addict, not relaxed geom in the scheme of comparative fit/geom.
But I tend to up size due to long arms [think joe young] which slows down the racier Addict inputs. I actually like the steeper front end and find it more neutral. The may have something to do with that I like a lot of weight on the front end so when you turn you are there already maybe. I would have to keep the Scott and loose the Roubaix if I had to only keep one frankly. 

There is NO WAY the Roubaix turns like the Addict in terms of tighter or quicker turning response. Not saying the Roubaix is bad, just the Scott I guess I might say is the proverbial 'turns on rails', like it thought of the turn before you did kind of.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Is a new bike really necessary? A lot can be done to your current bike to change the way you sit, you have the bars raised by installing spacers, and the bars brought closer with a new stem, and or shallower drop bars if any of that will work for you for a lot less money then a new bike.. 

You could even install a suspension seatpost, they do make one that doesn't even look like a suspension seatpost, Kalloy makes an affordable one just make sure you get the right diameter. 

If you want an all around more comfortable bike then you'll need to go with either an endurance (what use to be called a sport bike)/cross bike, or a touring bike.

A Trek Domane if you want another Trek is a good example, as is the Giant Defy, Specialized Roubaix, Scott Solace 20, Cannondale Synapse, Raleigh has several like the Revenio, Capri, and the Record Ace. Thats just a list of few, that website you mentioned had some brands I'm not familiar with because they're not sold in American LBS's that I've ever seen but could be good options as well if you have a source for them.

All of this depends on your budget which you didn't hint at, but there are really nice titanium bikes you can get too that would last forever and be more comfortable than the lower price aluminum models. A great entry level comfort titanium bike is this one: Save Up to 60% Off Titanium Cyclocross Bicycles | Road Bikes - Motobecane Fantom Cross Team Titanium | Cross Bikes Or you can go with even a higher price titanium bike from an American manufacture like Lynskey, just go here and browse: https://www.lynskeyperformance.com/store/road.html


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

froze said:


> Is a new bike really necessary? A lot can be done to your current bike to change the way you sit, you have the bars raised by installing spacers, and the bars brought closer with a new stem, and or shallower drop bars if any of that will work for you for a lot less money then a new bike..


True, even a few size bigger tire depending on what fits can/will slow down the bike feel/response. In effect 'relaxing the geometry IMO, as does going to the bigger instead of the smaller when in between sizes. Also IMO/Experience.

Add shorter reach bars to the above list as well. This seems to be the trend anyway. Shorter reach and shallower drops. Try to find Merckx style deep drops anymore. 


"titanium bikes you can get too that would last forever"

I will comment on this, the 'bomb proof' moniker and say that I have seen more cracked Ti frames than Steel in my cycling tenure. [personal/empirical].


To me the more important reason for a ti frame relates to comfort, not OT for bikes and riding, comfort [and lack of rust, not that my 72 steel chrome Paramount has rusted yet]


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

deleted


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

froze said:


> Is a new bike really necessary? Save Up to 60% Off Titanium Cyclocross Bicycles | Road Bikes - Motobecane Fantom Cross Team Titanium | Cross Bikes


I think yes and no. 
First, the proper sized frame, with the a correct range of spacers and the moderate stem, will ride better than a frame that has a short HT (which the 2300 does), with a lot of spacers, and a short stem.

Second, the trek is first or second generation carbon, (well over 10 years old) and carbon bike production has come a very long way in just the last 5 years. If he wants a better quality ride, that fits his "fit" needs today, a new bike is a good option. Not to mention new things are nice to have.

You are correct that he could make the bike fit. He may need a new fork to add spacers. Also buying all the correct parts to get the fit right can be very expensive, and he will need a clear understanding of fit to make that happen correctly, especially in regards to handlebars.

If his fit is not the normal range, and he had been forcing himself to adapt to his 2300 in his younger days, even a stock "relaxed" bike may need some part changes. This was the case for me with my longer legs and shorter torso.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Guys (froze, robt57, tvad) - did you see the OP's previous reply, 2 hours ago?



bobp55 said:


> ...I've given my 2300 to my son-in-law so it will go to good use. Besides the geometry, that bike was getting too aggressive in the steering and ride for me. It's pretty rigid. It served me well for quite a while but I've out aged it.
> 
> Bob P


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ibericb said:


> Guys (froze, tobt57, tvad) - did you see the OP's previous reply, 2 hours ago?


Nope. Deleted my post.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Guys (froze, robt57, tvad) - did you see the OP's previous reply, 2 hours ago?


I think you know/knew the answer. ;O..

My speed reading leaves a lot to be desired. But I will leave the post as/is as someone else may find a point a made, i dunno. useful maybe....


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## bobp55 (Feb 15, 2015)

Thanks for all the suggestions. You have convinced me that the large drops I see in all the pics for endurance bikes is not what I'll be getting when I am fitted.

By the way, the Trek 2300 I had was not carbon. It was an early version, which was the ZR9000 aluminum with carbon stays and fork.

Bob P


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

robt57 said:


> My speed reading leaves a lot to be desired. But I will leave the post as/is as someone else may find a point a made, i dunno. useful maybe....


Speed reading? Hell, my slow reading leaves a lot to be desired. But my wife tells me that I still read better than I listen.

I think the suggestions and thoughts are good ones, and may well serve another in the future dealing with the same issue.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Try out a bunch of bikes. You may find you like the feel of a carbon composite bike. Then again, you might hate it. At some point you find the bike that feels just right, and it will excite When you do, go for it. As the years wind on the opportunities become increasingly limited.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

You just need to go look at them in the shops. Look for a bike with a head tube that extends upwards from the top tube. Every bike is different in that regard. Also you can usually flip the stem over to make the handle bars higher. Stems typically are + or - 6 degrees and they are reversible. I think a 12 degree stem that juts upward is available. Also look for a bike that has not had the steering tube cut as you can cut it longer and add spacers. 

I have to say just because it's an endurance bike does not necessarily mean it's particularly comfortable and it does not mean it will not handle quickly. Not that many road riders are looking for a sluggish handling bike. A touring bike may be something to consider. 

Just for reference I am 67 and can touch my toes easily. I have 85mm of drop from my seat to the top of the handlebars. I find it quite comfortable. However in over 40 years of cycling I have never really had comfort issues with bikes.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I think what you're seeing from the bikes in the link you provide is an illusion.

Some of the bikes chosen for the test rides may have been small for the testers, hence the long, exposed seat posts. Some even put the stem spacers above the stem, furthering the confusion. Basically, the photographs don't do justice to the benefits of the frames.

I urge you to get your hands on your old 2300 and take the typical frame measurements so you can properly compare your old frame to the new offerings. Most endurance geometry frames offer taller headtubes along with slacker front end geometries and should provide you with what you want.


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## Richard L (Jun 16, 2014)

If you are not averse to steel, you could also check out Rivendell's bikes, at rivbike.com. The Roadeo or A. Homer Hilsen might be of interest.


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## bobp55 (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm not looking for sluggish handling but the 2300 was very quick, somewhat twitchy. I remember noticing the difference after decades on my (now vintage) Peugeot PSV10.
I do want a bike that's reasonably responsive.

Bob P


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

bobp55 said:


> I'm not looking for sluggish handling but the 2300 was very quick, somewhat twitchy. I remember noticing the difference after decades on my (now vintage) Peugeot PSV10.
> I do want a bike that's reasonably responsive.
> 
> Bob P



Really sounds like you need to stick to a current technology carbon fiber frame. It is the best for all applications if you want something very responsive, but so that it wont beat you up when you ride it. Stick with where the best of current technology is leading us all and that is to modern carbon fiber. they continue to make the frames better and better. They somehow make them more responsive but also smoother. I took out my old chrome moly puegoet several years ago after I had been on my carbon fiber trek and it felt like I was riding a wet noodle. It was smooth alright, but it flexed so bad I felt like it was going to bend. Technology has brought us to much better. 

The new technology gets better in all areas. Big bottom brackets, huge tubed light Monocoque frames, electronic shifting, light and stiff but wide and smooth carbon fiber wheels, smooth riding tubeless tires, big tapered steering tubes. The list never ends, and it all is loads better than it was just 5 or ten years ago. Go ride a bunch of new bikes and you will be impressed ay what your money buys you. 

You have lived long enough that you deserve to treat your self to a new technology bike that will not work with your body where it is now and that you will be comfortable riding for many miles.

let the journey of a new bike purchase begin ! You are going a t great time of the year when inventory should be starting to be well stocked and they should work with you on a good price.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

I just Fredded out my 1987 Bianchi with a new adjustable-angle quill stem and, uhm, well, how can I put it? ... trekking handle bars (don't worry, I still have the authentic ones). With all of these adjustable degrees of freedom, any position can be accommodated. I even put them on backward for extra Fred quality points. My 17 year old kid is enjoying riding this now.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

See if you can give a Bianchi Infinito CV a try. I got one about a year ago, and I love the thing. It's designed for the cobbled classics. It's definitely more upright than my other racing bicycles, but not ridiculously so. It rides more smoothly and softly than anything else I've ever had or tested, and this includes the vaunted Colnago C-59. It's still definitely a racing bike, too. It wants to go. 

As for the suggestion above for a Rivendell, I respectfully disagree. I had a Rivendell Ramboullet for about five years. Beautiful as heck. Heavy as an anvil. Slow handling but still weirdly tippy. Reasonably smooth riding but far, far from as comfortable as my current Bianchi Infinito. Less comfortable than my late lamented Time Edge Translink. Less comfortable than my late Colnago Master (which was better looking than the Riv, as well, and which ended up being traded for the Binaca).


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Mapei said:


> See if you can give a Bianchi Infinito CV a try. It rides more smoothly and softly than anything else I've ever had or tested.


Test rode one, it was the most dampened feeling bike I have ever ridden, and I asked they put 120 lb air in the 23C tires. The GEOM did not work for me, a brand I am between sizes on personally. I liked it better than the Domane I test rode by a lot, and will elaborate on why I say that if anyone wants.


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## bobp55 (Feb 15, 2015)

I looked at some of the sites and so far these 3 look like possibilities.
Canondale Synapse Carbon 105 5
Trek Domane 4.3
Specialized Roubaix SL4 Sport or Elite

All are carbon, 105, and have list prices in the $2000 - $2500 range. Unfortunately here in Mn, we're nowhere near being able to ride outside. Test rides will have to wait until April at the earliest. So I have plenty of time to do more research.

What I did notice about the tube angles is that seat tube angles were all around 73.5 deg , which matches that of my Trek 2300 but the head tube angles are all less than the 73.8 deg of the 2300. The Roubaix and Synapse are at 72.5 deg and the Domane is at 71.9 deg. This is assuming I need the same frame size as my old bike, which is 56cm. Usually I'm between 54cm and 56cm but my long arms make me go with the 56cm.

Bob P


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

bobp55 said:


> Specialized Roubaix SL4


Have a 2014 SL4, the Bianchi hands down felt more compliant. If sublime is on your hit list, I would say make sure you ride an SL4 and define this for yourself.

Again, glad to post my Domane experience opinion.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

bobp55,

Everyone's giving you great advice here, and if you decide to go with carbon, don't forget to throw the Focus Izalco Ergoride in there (as far as value per $$$, Focus Ergo is hard to beat, read as much as you can about it along with the others). There's a reason (other than marketing hype) these endurance bikes keep selling so briskly, for comfort and the ability to still ride hard are intertwined closely and endurance bikes are hitting that sweet spot for riders who are older and need to sit higher up with shorter reach. Thus all the bikes mentioned so far are outstanding for what you are looking for.

Like you & others, I used to ride and race for years with a large drop, a 12cm drop (i'm 53 now, 6'2", 190-195lb now, used to be 165-170lbs). I had no problems with the 12cm drop and did quite well in fact. But, unfortunately, the road Gods caught up with me just over a decade ago and I had a driver here in Belgium, on a training ride, decide he wanted to use me as a human pinball, from head-on no less. So, life changed on the bike since then and I adapted. 

I now ride with the bars 1-2cm above my seat, which made me work (acutally, it's still a work in progress, lol) to teach my whole system/body to get used to the new higher up configuration, plus the accident's gift of having constant cervical and spine pain & total numbness as new riding friends. But, hey, that's what friends are for, right?! For me, I decided to stay on steel and Ti but that was more a function of carbon not being very well developed yet back then in the early 2000s. That is so much no longer the case that it isn't even funny. As a dedicated steel and Ti rider, I can tell you from test riding (and from friends giving me theirs) carbon rides, modern day carbon endurance bikes are comfy, racey, and you will like them.

The only thing I'd suggest is to reiterate (as others have pointed out) is to get someone who will provide a great fit for a starting point. You're older now, and not what you used to be (we all suffer from this malady, haha). For extra tips, make sure the saddle area (not just moving it back & forth, but actually how it fits your older, changed body position and thus on the bike sitting position). For example, I used to ride only on 130-133mm width seats, and this was best because in a 12cm drop a person naturally rolls their sit bones forward to their narrowest width. But since I am now sitting up so much taller, my sit bones thus rotated back & wider, I needed to go to a 150-155mm width seat to get the required support. Just paying attention to this little thing, this little detail, made a massive difference in comfort, ability to still ride hard, and so forth while sitting upright vs the used to be 12cm lowered position.

Last thing I would observe is this: imho, it truly doesn't matter which of the frames and/or material you choose nowadays (they are all so close). But something else (beside the seat) that will make all the difference in the world is a fantastic set of wheels. And make it a set with the newer wider width rims (23-25mm, H+ Son Archetypes up to HED + Ardennes to others) along with a great tire (go for a min 25mm width tires) so you can run them at lower pressures. Having these is just as fast a setup as in your younger days, in fact, imho, faster because of the comfort & less rolling resistence lower pressures allow. Quite honestly, I can take one of my old steel bikes, for example a 1992 Colnago Technos I still adore, throw on a pair of the new 23mm wide, 26mm deep rims with 25c Rubino Pro Slicks on them, and despite sitting up high, an old bike with a great wheeleset now comes alive and I am again in the mix of local hard club rides and local Belgian road races.

Good luck in your search, and ride as many of them as you can!!! You won't be disappointed ;-)


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## wayne (Aug 3, 2006)

bobp55

Not to change the subject but could you possibly find out what are the widest tires size tires that will fit on the 2300. I have searched throughout the www to see if at least 28mm will fit on this bike without any luck. Appreciate any help.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

The pictures you are looking at aren't the stock set up probably, they are cut steering tubes and less spacers to look racy. 

My Domane and Synapse both have the bars set up about level with the saddle and like you, at 58 I really can't ride for very long lower than that. Even an inch lower and it will begin to bother me after a couple hours a day in just a few days. The set up both of them have a 7 degree stem turn down with an uncut steering tube and a 1 cm spacer above the bars. Flipping the stem up and using a .5cm spacer above the bars I could raise them more than an inch higher than the saddle with a 7 degree stem. 

I'm in between a 56 and 58cm for sizing, and chose the 58 for both of these bikes because of the taller stack / head tube vs the 56. My Crockett is a 56 and has stack that a little over an inch shorter than the Synapse and Domane, turning the stem up and a 5mm spacer on top of the stem with an uncut steering tube gets the bar height even with the saddle, about the same height as the Domane / Synapse set up. 

Comparing bikes if you want to be able to have higher bars, compare stack in the geometry tables of each manufacturer to see how the compare to one another as well as from size to size.


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## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

robt57 said:


> Have a 2014 SL4, the Bianchi hands down felt more compliant. If sublime is on your hit list, I would say make sure you ride an SL4 and define this for yourself.
> 
> Again, glad to post my Domane experience opinion.


Yes, I'm interested. Please post your impressions of the Domane and the Infinito.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Jackhammer said:


> Yes, I'm interested. Please post your impressions of the Domane and the Infinito.


Well the Bianchi I think I covered. The Domane rides I have spoke of in other thread, and will repeat. 

Let me be clear I rode both bikes a couple miles each. The Infinito felt like I could just keep it. [but not optimum size for me as said] The Domane felt like two bikes to me, a super solid front end, VS an almost non feeling rear. I did not like that feel, BUT! and a big one, I think I need to ride one for longer than a few miles. 

In fact I was on the phone seeing about renting one last week. I am curious if 50-60 miles would be enough to acclimate and for that sense I did not care for to maybe fall out of scrutiny. I know a few folks with them tat also have Madones and I never see them on the Madones anymore.

I decided NOT to rent it, purely due to the fact that I did just get the SL4 in August, and pretty much finished up it's path from stock. [so not buying another bike].

The SL4 was such a good deal @ $1475.00m, and I had the mint 7800 group I pulled off my Strong to relegate that to a SS with ENO wheels. 

I just last month finished up the SL4 with an XTR / Pacenti SL25 Wheelset, and still am under 2000.00 space bucks being I already had the 7800 group. I also put all the Sora stuff on a AL frame that is dedicated to my computrainer, so sorta another $$ value boost to the entire spending. I also have the original wheelset off the SL4 for sale to recoup some coin I hope sell this summer.

But the SL4 IMO will not compare to comfort and compliant feeling ride to either the Domane or Infinto I can say with total confidence. I spent some energy and coin trying to make the SL4 feel nicer for lack of anther word. I put on 27mm Pave Vittoria 320 TPI tires, Got a CG-R Spesh seatpost, double wrapped the bars.
I don't think I would feel the need to do these things to the other two, except maybe the front end of the domane 'might' feel harsh to me, or not after I got use to it.

I should say the SL4 has a crazy stiff bottom end and I love going uphill on it. Not just trash the ride quality as being too race feeling. But my 2005 Roubaix fells like a lot more comfortable. Albeit I dislike the BBs lake of stiffness and it being so old.  But still have it.

AGAIN, you need to ride the SL4 and decide if that threshold of feel I refer to exist in your own definition. 

I love riding the SL4, but took my Scott Addict out the other day, and will again a few time this week well before I though it would be happening for 2015. I missed it not having ridden it since August when I got the SL4. But I won't ride the Addict on crap/wet/nasty conditions, the main reason I got the SL4 as a weather bike...


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## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

Thanks, I was just surprised at the great reviews of the Infinito even in comparison to the Domane. 

I'm riding an SL2 S-Works Roubaix right now with open pros and 28c tires which provides a smooth ride. 

From my understanding they made the SL 4's a lot more stiff, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

The Domane just seems to be a great idea so I was a little surprised that people are saying the ride quality of the Infinito is even better.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Jackhammer said:


> From my understanding they made the SL 4's a lot more stiff, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


After a few days on mine I called Spesh support and asked why my comfort bike felt like a race bike. The sent me the CG-R Post gratis. And it did help a bit.

I was going to build up some carbon 50mm disc wheels, after feeling how stout the bike is I quickly decided that was not a great idea as far as ride quality direction and did the 26mm ALUM Pacenti Rims instead... 

I used an XT wheelset for a while with I19 low profile WTB rims with the Pave 27mm tires and that was a real cush improvement. The Pacenti SL25s with 25C Paves is a bit less cush, but also a bit faster to spin up and better going up long stuff.

I don't think it is a bad thing, I just thought I was replacing my 2005-6 Roubaix which is really comfortable. Turns out I was wrong. I like the bike, but after I sell off the old Roubaix my comfort bike will be either my Paramount or Bridgestone 400. Which I did not have to buy a new SL4 to have for comfort.

So mislaid plan, but still good bike IMO.

But I have gotten used to it, and assume I could get used to the Domane traits which cause me pause just as easily.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

robt57 said:


> ...I won't ride the Addict on crap/wet/nasty conditions, the main reason I got the SL4 as a weather bike...


^Nice to have a SL4 as a weather bike!


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## Richard L (Jun 16, 2014)

As carbon technology has improved greatly, so has steel. While carbon absolutely makes for a great bike, comparing today's lighter and stronger steel to vintage steel is akin to comparing today's carbon to first generation carbon.

Based on responses above, the Rivendell A. Homer Hilsen is probably not a good choice as Rivendell describes it as a "country bike," and its ride might be similar to that of the no longer made Rambouillet. 

The Roadeo, on the other hand is far different from a Rambouillet. For example, the Roadeo has less trail, shorter chainstays, lighter tubing, and is the one Rivendell production bike that can be ordered with a threadless or threaded fork. Rivendell's higher end production framesets are made by Waterford and for the Roadeo, Grant Petersen borrowed some frame lightening techniques from Waterford's chief designer Marc Muller. Depending on the frame size and components, a Roadeo can be built up at less than 20lbs., nowhere as light as some carbon bikes, but still not overly heavy for lugged steel, and lighter than most vintage steel bikes. 

So as not to make this post a Rivendell ad, a custom tig-welded Waterford can rival the weight of many carbon bikes, and its 14-series models can cost less than the Roadeo. The same is true for several other custom tig-welded steel bikes. 

Finally, most custom builders have a pretty thorough fit guide and ask a lot of questions to build the bike the customer wants. (Independent Fabrication comes to mind as one example.) If the custom builder sells through a local bike shop, the shop often will not charge for helping the customer with the custom builder's fitting guide and worksheet.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

tvad said:


> ^Nice to have a SL4 as a weather bike!


I drive a 20 year old car.  I hardly drive it either. 
I have a lot of nice bike and ride most of them a lot, some of them a little.
My wife drives a new car [well it was new in 2014].


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Richard L said:


> Finally, most custom builders have a pretty thorough fit guide and ask a lot of questions to build the bike the customer wants.


What I learned about being measured and fit by Carl Strong and the subsequent frame he built for me in 2000 has helped me immensely in understanding what constitutes fit for me. I don't make fit mistakes anymore... I made 7 of them before Carl made me the frame mentioned...


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

how about going to see the LBS fitter and talk to the fitter about your issues?

the fitter can decide to see if replacing the stem can get the bars to a more reasonable height for you.

If needed, maybe you can get the LBS to get you a new fork, to add more spacers below the stem.

Worst case scenario, you buy a new bike.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

My only comment would be that you don't need relaxed geometry - to get the handlebars up higher (without excessive spacers or a funky stem) you need a taller head tube.


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

SantaCruz said:


> My only comment would be that you don't need relaxed geometry - to get the handlebars up higher (without excessive spacers or a funky stem) you need a taller head tube.


That is the biggest factor in endurance geometry is a taller head tube. Endurance geometry bikes have slightly shorter top tube and slightly longer wheelbase , but the taller head tube is the biggest differentiation. I have also noticed that most are set up to handle better with the taller head tube.
Bottom line is the bike manufacturers are going after the older guys that aren't quite as flexible and have more disposable income than their younger counterparts. 
It makes the most sense to get a bike that is set up for this type of riding, verses getting a regular bike with a short head tube and jacking up the handlebars by a steep angled stem or tall front with loads of spacers. 

No you don't have to get a relaxed geometry bike, but why wouldn't you, when they are setup to ride the way the OP wants to ride.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

SantaCruz said:


> My only comment would be that you don't need relaxed geometry - to get the handlebars up higher (without excessive spacers or a funky stem) you need a taller head tube.


With the taller head tube (taller frame stack) you probably also want a shorter frame reach. That's largely what the modern endurance geometry bikes are about.


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## scott967 (Apr 26, 2012)

When I was shopping, I found that there was difference between brands in how much stack difference between sizes. IIRC in particular Roubaix went up quite a bit. I think in those pics they pretty much use the smallest frame that can work for a rider. Put that rider on the next size and the bar would seem less "racy". Of course there are other potential trades on the larger size besides stack and I don't think you can generalize between brands (some get much more reach change than others).

scott s.
.


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## Bikephelps (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm a "recovering" randonneur. I started long distance riding on a 2005 Specialized S-Works Roubaix. Very comfortable, light, stiff in the bottom bracket. In short, a great bike for long difficult rides. I liked the bike so much, I purchased a 2008 Specialized S-Works Roubaix SL. The SL is lighter, stiffer in the bottom bracket but not nearly as comfortable. I tried to duplicate the ride of my 2005 on my SL but could never match the comfort. I read where Tom Boonan wanted a stiffer Roubaix & Specialized started making the Roubaix more to his preferences. I still prefer the comfort of the 2005. Now that I'm retired from randonneuring, I ride a Colnago Master.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

62 and ride a 10 cm drop from the saddle to the tops of the bars. On my bike, I could change that to ~0 cm by flipping the stem and adding three spacers (if I hadn't cut the steerer). The basic relevant frame parameter is stack. Stack, the vertical distance between the center of the BB and the top of the head tube, and headset height, determines the lowest the bars can go with a slammed -17 degree stem (-17 is essentially horizontal. There are a very few stems more negative than -17 deg and these slope downward). From that, you can go higher with up to 3cm with spacers and another 6cm with a 100mm +17 degree stem.


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## Mandeville (Oct 18, 2014)

bobp55 said:


> I looked at some of the sites and so far these 3 look like possibilities.
> Canondale Synapse Carbon 105 5
> Trek Domane 4.3
> Specialized Roubaix SL4 Sport or Elite


The Domane is an excellent bike for a relaxed fit or geometry. I just got a Domane 2.3 their top level aluminum in a 62 cm frame. Their bars are comfortable too. 

In the entry carbon level the 4.3 is identical to mine except for the frame--carbon v aluminum. If you ride a lot I would suggest if budget allows to consider going for the 4.5 as it has upgrades from 105 to Ultegra drivetrain and better brakes and tires and is only about $300-400 more than the 4.3. (The 4.3 is still quality though.)

My new bike is my first road bike in 25 years after riding a MTB somewhat modified for the street. The fit for me is relaxed and the bars are about one inch below the seat. I have good flexibility in the hamstrings, glutes, and lower back. It's very comfortable. After I ride it for a couple of weeks I will see about changing seat height to reduce the leg angle and will see how the current seat to handle bar drop works out. (My neck is beat up a bit so that likely will be the ultimate decider.)

As mentioned I bought the Domane 2.3 and the ride is very comfortable in terms of soaking up the bumps on the road. However, I did test ride a Domane 6.9 which is their top of the line and their is no comparison to the responsiveness or quickness of it and my 2.3 Aluminum. But then the 6.9 was about $6000 MORE than my bike.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

robt57,

What did that frame fitting process with Carl Strong teach you (in general, not specific)?? 

I've seen pics of your bikes in other posts, and as far as I can tell, we're pretty similar in setup (bike size and how much the seat is setback & its height, plus the drop to the bars). Reason I ask, is that I have been staring at Carl's site for the past 3-4 days trying to convince myself to get anohter custom Ti frame builtup, maybe even splurge and have him send it out to be painted up in a classic design (with the seat and chain stays Ti exposed). Does he really get into with a buyer if they want a more endurance-related bike (shorter reach, yet a still stable longer wheelbase, etc, etc)??


P.S. Thanks for the tubes link!! Ordered enough of them to get me to $50 and free shipping (so it came out to the $2.99 per tube) and now no more patching for a few years!! But, now that I say this, I've probably just awoken the flat Gods and I will go thru a cursed spell where I get like 20+ flats in 3 months...there's goes my Jenson bargian, lol


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

BelgianHammer said:


> robt57, What did that frame fitting process with Carl Strong teach you (in general, not specific)??


Mainly that I have a few long bones that his measuring ritual caught that 7 previous 'you need this size" at LBS had me on small bikes. Mt first road bike was a 56CM Trek. My Strong has a 58.8CM top tube and I use a 12 or 13 stem depending on bars. Do that math. A 56 Trek had a top tube more than an inch shorter than that



> Does he really get into with a buyer if they want a more endurance-related bike (shorter reach, yet a still stable longer wheelbase, etc, etc)??


His endurance/adventure 'Carls Blend' is probably what he is making most of these days. You should be asking Carl these questions, call him and tell him what you want and them ask him his approach. His 'Process' I found fantastic, and I can still say this with enthusiasm 15 years later.



> I've probably just awoken the flat Gods and I will go thru a cursed spell where I get like 20+ flats in 3 months..


Is your last name Murphy? 

For Shiets and giggles; Here is my Strong in 2001, and now as a SS since I started buying Plastic bikes in the last 2-3 years. Selling it off was out of the question. I had been on Ti bikes for a few seasons previous, and decided I was bored with mono-chromatic aesthetics and did a 180 in style. I was also as fit and fast as I ever have been and decided the flash would be absorbed by the fast. ' 15 years later...today, I am a poser.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

AlexCad5 said:


> ...
> Remember there is a balance to bar positon, the higher, and farther back they are (toward the saddle) the less planted and secure the bike will feel, because there is less weight over the front tire. This will effect how the bike handles, and you may find the bike will do wheelies on steeper slopes.


Lately I've been reminded of the effect on handling that comes with the shift in weight distribution created by a shorter reach and taller stack. The issue is spring winds. This morning I went out for a ride, temp was 67 °F, with winds S @ 21 mpg, gusting to 29. Compared to what I rode in the past, my Domane is noticeably more sensitive to crosswinds, and strong gusts will get your attention if you weren't already tuned in. The first time this happened I thought I had lost the front tire, then realizing that wasn't the case, I feared I was about to have a front wheel failure. Turns out, it's just the wind. I can overcome most of if by getting down in the drops, and as forward as I can maintain for how I'm riding at the moment. It's not a problem, just a vey noticeable difference.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Lately I've been reminded of the effect on handling that comes with the shift in weight distribution created by a shorter reach and taller stack.


Yeah, funny how much slower the response is until that feeling makes you get forward on the front wheel. Of course riding all the time in the attack position gets tiresome when you are hardly ever attacking.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I achieve my relaxed geometry by sliding back on the saddle, bending my upper tummy while keeping my lower back as vertical as possible, and putting my hands in the middle part of the handlebar next to the stem. There should not be a lot of weight on the hands. If I need more power temporarily, I slide my hands over to the top of the handlebar drops and loop my fingers around them, then pull.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

I second what ibericb said about the wind. Despite teaching and making myself (or, rather, my body) handle more erect riding position over the past decade, I still find some days, if I am not paying attention, and I mean paying attention all the time, a gust of wind will surely remind me to wake up. In Belgium, we get regular 5-7 BFT scale winds (not sure what speed in mph that is, they use the BFT here). These winds come in from over the seas/ocean, and they have been known to throw riders down. The one good thing, if there is such a thing, is that when it happens, it usually takes place on an wide open exposed farm pave (cobbles) road, a road that is basically about 6-7 feet wide, is pave/cobble-based with a light, crumbling, cracking layer of asphalt thrown over the top. So, if you're unlucky and the winds get your attention and more, and you find you are heading over and/or down, at least you'll end up in a mud ditch. It is a very soft landing, don't ask me how I know. Usually the only big deal, besides reminding you stupid self to pay attention all the time, is your kit gets covered in some farm gunk, which does stink. But you just hope it wasn't a manure-fertilization spreading day anytime recent, so the "real" stink is not in it ;-)

Something else besides the wind that gets me, is high speed descents, even straight line down the road descents. On all my steel bikes and Ti bikes, now that I have the bars basically at or 1-2cm above seat level, when I am coming down hills in Luxembourg (wife's family lives there) or when we head to Alps to ride, once the bikes get to near 40mph, they start becoming uncontrollable. Do you guys find this to be true too? 

No matter how much I get down in the drops, and try to get the weight distribution like it would be if I was still on my old 12-14cm drop when I raced in my younger days, the bikes just get squirrelly as heck above, say 38-40mph. I am forever modulating the brakes to get my coasting speed back down into the mid-low30s. When it did it on my Colnago Technos the first time some years ago, and the Technos is one of the most stable bikes I've ever been on, I came back the next day after having had swapped out the +45 degree riser quill stem for a -16 degree one I could bury down in the fork (like the old days). I pedalled the several kms back up to the top of a few hills, stopped and took the allen wrench out, buried the quill stem all the way down into the stem, and turned to head back down. Sure enough, the bike went right thru 40mph and up to 50mph without so much a shiver, shake and/or quibble. It felt rock solid. Of course my cervical neck and back we're screaming we're gonna die, but the bike was super solid. I really miss that, that feeling of being so solid on the bike, planted on the rode, no matter the speed, terrian, or whatever.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

ibericb said:


> The issue is spring winds.


:shocked: I thought February is still considered winter...


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