# Ullrich - what's with the attitude??



## 10kman (Nov 20, 2002)

Last year, Ullrich has to be told to wait up after LA crashed, Tyler motioned for him to slow, even though Ullrich knew of the crash as he was right there.

This year, just in today's stage (17), Mr. Ullrich found the need to try to gain an advantage in the GC by using Landis/LA for pacing duties. When then finally crested the mountain, LA was motioning to him to get to the front to take the pace if he wanted to advance his placing (I'd assume). JU didn't want a part of it, and thus, Basso caught back up, as did his teammate.

I'm glad Lance won the stage, but he was obviously going for Landis to get it. Lance's point was - if you want to ride with us, make it worth your while, or else Landis should get it since he did all the work. 

What's with the 'tude? Also, FWIW, he's the only one I've seen NOT wearing the livestrong band on his wrist.....

10k


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## the_dude (Jun 25, 2004)

*I think it has something to do with wearing pink.*

Everyone knows Ullrich would win every year if it weren't for that girly pink. There's even scientific proof to back it up. 

the_dude


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Yeah Ullrich, get with the program! Wear the Armstrong wristband and take your turn pulling postal!

You are the most talented rider in the tour but are lazy, unprepared, unmotivated AND have a bad attitude.

Lay off the drugs too and the donuts!


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## Bocephus Jones (Feb 3, 2004)

10kman said:


> Last year, Ullrich has to be told to wait up after LA crashed, Tyler motioned for him to slow, even though Ullrich knew of the crash as he was right there.
> 
> This year, just in today's stage (17), Mr. Ullrich found the need to try to gain an advantage in the GC by using Landis/LA for pacing duties. When then finally crested the mountain, LA was motioning to him to get to the front to take the pace if he wanted to advance his placing (I'd assume). JU didn't want a part of it, and thus, Basso caught back up, as did his teammate.
> 
> ...


I wear one of those bands, but can easily see why Ullrich or any rider on a rival team would choose not to. Doesn't make him a bad person.


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## 10kman (Nov 20, 2002)

*I can't.....*

I can't see a reason NOT to wear one of those bands, especially now with the tour going on and all of that.

Cancer isn't just LA's problem, or US Postal's problem, or America's problem.............


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## Bocephus Jones (Feb 3, 2004)

10kman said:


> I can't see a reason NOT to wear one of those bands, especially now with the tour going on and all of that.
> 
> Cancer isn't just LA's problem, or US Postal's problem, or America's problem.............


true, but the bands are directly associated with Lance and his foundation. They aren't just a generic Cancer charity. I can see his main rival feeling kind of strange about wearing one. I'm guessing many of the top riders have ties to some charitable foundation or other.


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## IGotNuthin' (Feb 20, 2004)

*Chinese prison-labor band...?*

Hell, I wear one, but the damned thing is made in China, probably by kids who will later develop cancer as a result of the toxic rubber / chemical fumes... 
It's funny how much inherent value we're willing to ascribe to a little piece of rubber.


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## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

*Now see, that's funny...*



francois said:


> Yeah Ullrich, get with the program! Wear the Armstrong wristband and take your turn pulling postal!
> 
> You are the most talented rider in the tour but are lazy, unprepared, unmotivated AND have a bad attitude.
> 
> Lay off the drugs too and the donuts!


...but if he, like, did, then like all of Ulle's fans would have to like spit on him for hatin' on hisself. Duhuude, that's, ...like...uh... harsh, or what?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I just wanna know where*

all the' Lance is an a-hole and Jan rules' guys went and how they feel about their heroes petulant attitude. As I said, I don't know any of these guys personally so I'm not making any judgements but Jan turning downhill away from the press, etc... hasn't shown him in a great light.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

atpjunkie said:


> all the' Lance is an a-hole and Jan rules' guys went and how they feel about their heroes petulant attitude. As I said, I don't know any of these guys personally so I'm not making any judgements but Jan turning downhill away from the press, etc... hasn't shown him in a great light.


Uhh, I'm right here dude. Lance is not an a-hole. 

Ullrich is my favorite. He may be outgunned this year but he's fought with every fiber in his body. And most important, he hasn't given up and started pulling for postal and wearing the Armstrong bracelet (like the tool above suggests).

Hey, I'm wearing the Lance bracelet right now but I will slap ullrich if he wears one during this race.

francois


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*No you are not the guy*

you are a fan. a good one. you support your rider in good times and bad and admit when times are bad. You make rational statements based on a knowledge of cycling but still have a 'favorite rider' without ever being a hater. there are others out there, who as Trolls do, must have gone back under the bridge from which they came. You are just a fan and from what I've read of yours a good one. Have faith, the Kaiser can make up 4 minutes in the TT, I guess he'll be on the podium behind his team mate.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*haha*



atpjunkie said:


> all the' Lance is an a-hole and Jan rules' guys went and how they feel about their heroes petulant attitude. As I said, I don't know any of these guys personally so I'm not making any judgements but Jan turning downhill away from the press, etc... hasn't shown him in a great light.


wouldn't say ullrich is my hero by any measure, but I <i>would</i> say LA's an a-hole of the highest order. you want petulance, look no further than him. at least imho. he's just marketed better than anybody else. not that that detracts from either of their abilities on the bike.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*check my record*

from what I've heard I tend to agree, except I've also heard the inverse from some guy who got to ride with him accidentally in Topanga Canyon. I'm no LA fanboy and don't base anything on their personalities. all the greats (Big Mig excluded) had their personality problems. It comes with the territory. I dig the kaiser but have been let down by his attitude. So what I'm saying is, all are great riders period, let's leave their 'issues' out. I'm calling Kloden 2nd, Jan 3rd in Paris. we're in agreement, like the way they ride and that's it.


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Jan has fought?*

I haven't watched every minute of the already abridged OLN coverage, but I have barely seen Jan do anything but tag along behind LA (when he managed to). His big comeback came after losing tons of time (was he dropped or was he dogging it?) in two tough mountain stages, and sucking wheels for the previous two weeks.

I was duly impressed by his MTT ride. But again, he surrendured in the Pyrenean stages which were followed by a flat stage and a rest day. He should have had plenty in reserve for the MTT. That is a fine and possibly winning strategy, but it doesn't suggest fighting with every fiber in his being. (He also got smoked by Armstrong who may have been pulled by his team thus far, but at least has been able to handle their pace.)

It seems like the best thing you could say about Jan at this point is that he realized right off the bat that he was out-trained and out-organized, and has only raced to keep himself positioned to take advantage of something unexpected. Again, crafty, but. . .


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*What the man said...*

From the "a-hole" himself []:

“Ullrich wanted us to work as we had two guys there [Armstrong and Landis],” Armstrong explained. “I understood a little bit, but at the same time, he was trying to make up time on Ivan Basso [CSC], so it was in Jan’s best interests to do the work.” 

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=328

Good guess, 10kman.


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## Ricky2 (Apr 7, 2004)

*Yep, I agree also. Marketing does wonders.*



blackhat said:


> wouldn't say ullrich is my hero by any measure, but I <i>would</i> say LA's an a-hole of the highest order. you want petulance, look no further than him. at least imho. he's just marketed better than anybody else. not that that detracts from either of their abilities on the bike.


I agree also. Its funny how people turn race tactics into a 'tude' thing. If anything, LA has been known in the peloton as having an unfriendly, squeeze some jalapeno juice down my craw, type of attitude. But, Nike and the rest advertise him like no other. Pure marketing. I'm a fan of hope and the fight against cancer, but I'm no L.A. fan.


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*So should we just say. . .*

. . .that Ullrich is a lousy tactician?


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## Ricky2 (Apr 7, 2004)

czardonic said:


> . . .that Ullrich is a lousy tactician?


To some extent, yes. But, he still wasn't going to win this Tour without, at least, the form he had last year. He didn't have that in the mountains this year. It was evident before the Tour when he got dropped in a race Mtn stage 1 month before the Tour. At today's point. on GC he was sooo far behind, his only slim in hell chance was the tactic he tried today, hoping for one last attack, but obviously he didn't have the legs.


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## Heron Todd (May 20, 2002)

all the greats (Big Mig excluded) had their personality problems. It comes with the territory. I dig the kaiser but have been let down by his attitude. So what I'm saying is said:


> A couple of years ago, I heard Bob Roll in an interview saying that every champion he knew was nuts and had problems. He felt that it went with the territory. A normal person cannot go through that much suffering willingly.


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*Procycling mag article on Ullrich*

Just read this on a plane from Atlanta last night (thank God we have TiVo). The 
Procycling TDF issue has an interview with Lance and an article by Marcel Wust 
(I think, but don't have the mag on me to confirm) about his take on Ullrich. It's from 
the P.O.V. of another pro (ex-pro?) and has some interseting insight because of that.

Anyway, it's a good read, but especially noteworthy as it seems to set up, and almost
predict Ullrich's performance in the Tour so far. It's uncanny how the writer hits upon
aspects of Ullrich's pro history and habits that seem to directly tie into some of the 
ups and downs we've seen from Ullrich during this Tour.

Cheggitdout. Better yet, read it at the store. Other than the Ullrich and Lance articles,
the rest of the issue is sh!te.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

*All good points*

Great thread. At this point Ullrich knows he's racing for second or third as well as control and support of his team. Not making a move against Basso when he had the chance was foolish unlesss he had nothing left after the effort yesterday. No way to know without being able to hear from him directly.

So, Jan!! Care to comment on any of this?!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*agreed*

most champs are hardest on themselves and everyone else. it's what makes them champs. Hinault to me still takes the cake for the reneg in '86. Re; Jan this year, maybe he does have last years form, it's more likely Lance didn't have his form last year. This Tour didn't suit Jan, lotsa climbing a cold weather, his form could have been spot on but the Tour didn't suit him. I thought that was obvious when they released the route. The addition of the cold weather compounded the problem.


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## jumphress (Jul 15, 2003)

czardonic said:


> I haven't watched every minute of the already abridged OLN coverage, but I have barely seen Jan do anything but tag along behind LA (when he managed to). His big comeback came after losing tons of time (was he dropped or was he dogging it?) in two tough mountain stages, and sucking wheels for the previous two weeks.


His attack on stage 15, perhaps ill-timed, shelled a bunch of people that were legitimate podium threats. He wasn't sucking anyone's wheel then. He also hasn't laid down and given up like a number of others.


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*Yup, and then some.*



atpjunkie said:


> Re; Jan this year, maybe he does have last years form, it's more likely Lance didn't have his form last year.


Jan's form this year is the same form we've seen in the past. THAT is why Jan loses to
Armstrong. Lance did his homework and adapted to being a year older - maybe more than
ever before thand any previous TDF. He looked at the course and did the homework and
research on tactics and equipment. Even if he didn't end up using the TT climbing bars
or the narrow BB TT bike, the fact is he at least made the EFFORT.

IMO, Jan is a stubborn kid who thinks he can just power through things using the same
tools, tactics and preperation he's used in the past. I have MAD respect for this guy's
talent, but I think he wastes it by not adapting year by year to his opponent's tactics.
Am I dissapointed? Hell yes! It's like your neighbor owning a Ferrari but he never 
changes the oil and just continues on like nothing's wrong.

How many times has the press picked on his bad habits during the winter? Better yet,
how many times has he defended his habits only to once again lose to Armstrong?

Yeah, Vino's out, the Italian T-Mobile rider (forgot his name) is out too, but that can't
account for him being second best to his own teammate! WTF?

I give him credit for pushing on while all the other "contenders" are crying at home, but 
I can't help but be frustrated by the fact that I think he's like a rolling wind up toy that 
keeps banging up against the wall, waiting for someone else to steer him in another 
direction.

He claims to have learned from his experience of the Armstrong fake-out, but he ignores
the most important lesson: if you want to beat Armstrong, you need to PREPARE
better than Armstrong.

Or, dope like him. (sorry couldn't help it, but I thought it would save us from a troll
delivering that tired sh!te - the rest I really meant)


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Kind of my point.*

He has done little and has little to show for it.


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## 996vtwin (May 11, 2004)

*Arm Chair Quarterbacks....*



czardonic said:


> I haven't watched every minute of the already abridged OLN coverage, but I have barely seen Jan do anything but tag along behind LA (when he managed to). His big comeback came after losing tons of time (was he dropped or was he dogging it?) in two tough mountain stages, and sucking wheels for the previous two weeks.
> 
> I was duly impressed by his MTT ride. But again, he surrendured in the Pyrenean stages which were followed by a flat stage and a rest day. He should have had plenty in reserve for the MTT. That is a fine and possibly winning strategy, but it doesn't suggest fighting with every fiber in his being. (He also got smoked by Armstrong who may have been pulled by his team thus far, but at least has been able to handle their pace.)
> 
> It seems like the best thing you could say about Jan at this point is that he realized right off the bat that he was out-trained and out-organized, and has only raced to keep himself positioned to take advantage of something unexpected. Again, crafty, but. . .


Dont give us that Jan sucking wheels BS! What does Lance do for the whole tour....Maybe if Jan jad a team like Postal he would jad a better chance. I have not really seen T Mobile help Jan that much....But then again you are just a troll.....what do you know and why am I feeding a troll???


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

OK jan! I guess he was just tryin' to read her banner ;O)


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Excuses, insults.*

I acknowledged that Lance has his team to drag him around. But that's for naught if you can't handle the pace, which Ullrich has failed to do repeatedly.


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## Flav (Jun 24, 2004)

Ricky2 said:


> I agree also. Its funny how people turn race tactics into a 'tude' thing. If anything, LA has been known in the peloton as having an unfriendly, squeeze some jalapeno juice down my craw, type of attitude. But, Nike and the rest advertise him like no other. Pure marketing. I'm a fan of hope and the fight against cancer, but I'm no L.A. fan.


I'm an LA fan. I think he's an arrogant jerk pretty much all of the time -- at least from what I've seen of him. I know a few people like that. They just don't have good people skills but are extremely competitive and very skilled at what they do. They are all also very direct when speaking. They don't mince words or pull punches. The combination just doesn't come off well to most folk. It's like because the guy comes off as a jerk people desperately want to find fault and when they can't they dislike him even more for it. I think this is the case with LA.

I try to look at the good and the bad. For me, all of the work the LAF does for the fight against cancer makes up for the personality shortcomings. So, until something tips the balance the other way, I'll continue to be a fan.

The excessive marketing is probably compensating for personality.


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## 10kman (Nov 20, 2002)

*tool from above speaks again......*

since i'm the tool from above as someone put it, i'll put in my final .02.....

i don't want anyone to PULL for USPS, or anyone else. I do however, want them to pull their weight in a lead pack that is obviously trying to race each other. today was perfect example. he wants to sit in the lead pack and do jack for anyone else? can't take a mile or 2 in the front like everyone else was? he wasn't out there for his team, he can work together with the big guns and try to push the pace.

he didn't want to. he wanted the easy way and was going to hope to sneak a little sprint in and make it look like he "made his move".

this blew into a bigger discussion than i thought it would. 

the way he is looking now, the only thing that he could have done to blow this race apart was attack in the early part of the race, like the first week. that would have screwed up the whole race and really made it interesting. if he's so well suited for big gear turning on flats, then why not take advantage of it?????????

over and out on this one, enjoy the rest of the tour.....

10k


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## jumphress (Jul 15, 2003)

10kman said:


> he wants to sit in the lead pack and do jack for anyone else? can't take a mile or 2 in the front like everyone else was? . . . he didn't want to. he wanted the easy way and was going to hope to sneak a little sprint in and make it look like he "made his move". 10k


You just described what Lance did in todays stage.


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## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

IGotNuthin' said:


> Hell, I wear one, but the damned thing is made in China, probably by kids who will later develop cancer as a result of the toxic rubber / chemical fumes...
> It's funny how much inherent value we're willing to ascribe to a little piece of rubber.


Ha, I had a similar vision of young Chinese slave children working away so fat, lazy Americans can live a little longer through their gluttonous lifestyles.


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## cyclist1969 (Jun 25, 2004)

*thoughts...*



bsdc said:


> Ha, I had a similar vision of young Chinese slave children working away so fat, lazy Americans can live a little longer through their gluttonous lifestyles.


In one respect, completely true. I wear one but feel the need to explain that it was given to me by a dear friend who has been battling recurent testicular cancer. So I wear it for him and not for Lance or anything else. 

As far as JU not wearing one. Who Cares. I will go on record as saying it doesn't make him pro-cancer (that was a stretch, he probably is).....insert sarcasm.....

Maybe by not wearing one JU is making a statement against forced child labor? 

Never really thought JU had a bad attitude. He just isn't too media savy. this is killin' me to say, but I pretty much agree with ricky on this one. Lance has the biggest and best marketers and PR people in the business.....for a reason! (still a fan though).


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## PinPrinceSL (Jul 12, 2004)

Both Lance and Jan are incredibly strong riders, with totally different tactics and riding styles.

Armstrong spins those tiny gears all the way up, Ullrich tries to grind a bigger gear. Jan has no team support around him in the mountains. Vinoukorov is out this year.. Armstrong is just better prepared once again then Ullrich. 

Since I'm a Pinarello and Campagnolo Record kinda guy, I'm blaming Jan's problems on Giant and ShimaNO


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

10kman said:


> since i'm the tool from above as someone put it, i'll put in my final .02.....
> 
> i don't want anyone to PULL for USPS, or anyone else. I do however, want them to pull their weight in a lead pack that is obviously trying to race each other. today was perfect example. he wants to sit in the lead pack and do jack for anyone else? can't take a mile or 2 in the front like everyone else was? he wasn't out there for his team, he can work together with the big guns and try to push the pace.
> 
> ...


Ok, sorry for calling you a tool. I kind of see where you're coming from. I'm going to explain my position why I thought you were so out of line with your comments.

1) Jan waited - That's what the rest of the free world believes other than Lance and some pockets of Texas. When Tyler got there, Jan was with a group of 20 slow pedaling. Jan dropped this whole group before the accident. How else could the group of 20 catch if Jan didn't slow down? - But the key point here is why did you have to bring this up?

2) Jan doesn't have to take his turn pulling Lance's lead group. It is the yellow jersey's responsibility to set the pace and cover all attacks. That is seriously the way it works! It's not a little group ride where everybody has to take a turn. Lance is so dominant that the only way to beat him is gang up on him, unless everybody is just happy to be the first place loser. In fact, the minute Jan works to serve Lance's needs is the minute he has given up, surrendered, raise the white flag, etc. etc.

3) Why on earth would Jan wear a yellow band? Sure it's for cancer but it's yellow to signify the yellow jersey of the winner. And it says LiveStrong for Armstrong. Armstrong in yellow in support of cancer survivors. Jan wearing that right now is conceding the race to Armstrong, his arch-rival. It's like Armstrong right now wearing a pink band that says Aids-Kaiser (if Ullrich had an aids fundraiser). They are competitors. Let them compete. Whoever gives up or stops trying should go home in shame.

francois


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## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

10K, no offence, but I don't think you understand racing tactics. If you did, you would understand that there should have been no reason in hell that Ullrich rode with Armstrong and Landis. I can't beleive that no one out of the 34 replys currently in this thread hasn't figured out why either. 

Racing tactics lessons 101....

Lance, Floyd, and Jan crest the hill with a 20 meter gap on one of Jan's teammates and a rider who is actually above him in the GC. Jan sits on to wait for Kloden so he has a teammate all the way to the finish so that it's not 1 Telekom rider vs. 2 USPS riders. How can you not see that is the best thing for Jan to do? Don't you remember what Domo did to Hincapie in Paris-Roubaix a couple years back? 3 on 1 in a break, and you won't be the one winning. Same as 2 on 1. Jan should and did wait for Kloden. And that's not even considering that Kloden is higher up the GC than Jan. There would have been the benefit of trying to discard Basso, but to do so means that Jan attacks Kloden as well. With 2 riders in the 5 man break, now Telekom are on equal ground with USPS and Kloden's counter-attacking moves twice were brilliant. Phil Ligget was right on his call, his move with 900 meters should have been the winning move but he just didn't have the legs to finish it off. 

I think the real issue in your post is why Jan doesn't wear a yellow rubber band on his wrist and how you think that makes him a bad guy. But in truth, how do we not know that Jan hasn't given thousands of dollars to charities? How do we not know that he may just not like wearing a rubber band on his wrist? I personally can't stand to wear one when I ride... I can't stand to wear a watch either. Does that make me a bad guy? I guess if you saw me riding down the road with no yellow rubber band on my wrist, you would say yes? What if I was doing the Ride for the Roses and still wasn't wearing it? Or the MS 150 ride without it on? Does that make me bad? How about if I was like Kramer on Seinfled, would you be ribbon bully? (I love when I get to sneak a Seinfeld referrence into a post!)

The thing about today was that Jan did what was best for him and his team, not what was best for USPS and Floyd Landis. He wasn't going to hurt his teammates so that Landis could win a stage, which would make for a good story and some good tv here in the US. Jan protected his teammate just as Lance did. But because Lance is Lance, it's OK for him to do it, but not for Jan?

I guess I just don't see what the issue is with this.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

*Not exactly...*



jumphress said:


> You just described what Lance did in todays stage.


Actually, what Lance did was ride behind his TEAMMATE all the was through the last climb, then try to urge his TEAMMATE on to a stage win. Sadly, Landis didn't quite have the legs. Still, he used team tactics, the same ones that have won him going on 6 tours.

What Ullrich did was wheel suck off of another team's domestique and then chase down said dom when LA tried to send him out for a stage win. Nothing wrong with that. Tactics also, and what LA probably would have done if Postal was as weak as T-mob and didn't have anyone to pull the pack. But not nearly the same thing. I would argue, too that Jan pulled Landis back in the hopes of getting Kloden the stage win and not for his own gains. Damn near worked, too. Those 20 seconds woulda been useful going into the ITT. I think T-mob's in good position to take 2-3.


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## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

czardonic said:


> He has done little and has little to show for it.



He's in 4th place!!!!! There are 143 riders who would love to be in at least his position left in the race, and quite a few more sitting at home as well. I love how 4th place in the Tour means absolutely nothing, and is considered "little to show" for the race so far. What does that say about 1st place? Is it not that much of an acheievement as well?


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## Ricky2 (Apr 7, 2004)

*This is the Tour! This isn't your local group ride!*

A lot of peeps on this board don't really understand how a race works. That's ok, but describing Jan as a wheelsucker just shows that you don't have it all up there. Have any of you Lance Fan Club Members even watched previous years Tours? Armstrong is the consumate wheelsucker, but moving on...

This isn't your Sunday morning group ride where everybody takes their turn at the front! This is a freaking race! The Tour de France. Riders are racing to win, not to be a goober and say that they took their turn up front. Tactically, decisions are made and sometimes, you do all the work, somteimes you don't. You think Armstrong hasn't ever sat in and let others do all the work? Puleeze fools!


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## ebroil (Feb 10, 2003)

Thanks to russw19 for finally pointing this out. 

If Ullrich works with Landis and Armstrong, he's going to get no better than 2nd (They're not going to let him take it being outnumbered 2-1. It simply wouldn't happen, especially considering how strong Armstrong was today) and Kloden is going to get no better than 4th (and could lose time to Basso). All Ullrich will get is a few seconds against Basso. Instead, he sits up, lets Kloden catch back on, and Kloden proceeds to make what is within inches of being the winning move. T-mobile gets 2-3. There is absolutely no way he made the wrong tactical decision. He got a better result this way than would have been possible dropping Kloden.

Really, its hard to conceive of a similar scenario in which it would be a good idea to <i>attack your own teammate and pull two of your competitors to a sprint finish</i>. If he did that, in the hopes of taking a few seconds out of Basso, that would be racing for second place, which has been so roundly criticized on these boards. Instead, he went for the win, and T-Mobil nearly got it.


The notion that he had a "responsibility" to, essentially, lead out the sprint for Postal is patently ridiculous. The object of racing is to be the first one there, not to do the most work along the way. There's not a jersey for "Guy who dropped his teammates to pull his competitors to the finish." So, consider things like this before you bang out another post, re: Jan is a lazy tactical idiot who is racing for second. Perhaps - just perhaps - he has a better idea of what he's doing than you do. (He had to decide to hold back in a split second. It wasn't a hard decision <i>at all</i> in this case, but hours and hours and dozens of instant replays after the fact, there's still debate here as to whether or not he held back due to a "bad attitude." (!))


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## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

10kman said:


> I can't see a reason NOT to wear one of those bands, especially now with the tour going on and all of that.
> 
> Cancer isn't just LA's problem, or US Postal's problem, or America's problem.............


I can see a reason not to wear one..


Now wait  before you think I am a bad person, I wouldn't buy one because being Australian I would prefer to choose an Australia foundation to support. Whilst I respect the LA foundation a great deal and any foundation that supports cancer research - being a citizen of Australia I feel the need to support Australian organizations. If I were in the tour, I would do the same thing.

It isn't a Ullrich hates lance thing always, or a "I don't like Lance so I wont buy one" thinl - Its just priotising things a little.


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## 10kman (Nov 20, 2002)

*sigh.....*

Contrary to what the new theme is, I understand completely about racing tactics. No one knows for sure what was really going on anyway, since none of us were actually there.

The point of taking the pace is to say "oh yeah, well how about THIS pace", then someone else takes it, and "how you like dem apples?" is the new theme. This is especially the case with a small, elite group on the last really hard stage of the tour. Last chance to show your guts. This continues until someone cracks, or you have a sprint to the line. Not to pull each other around the dang course like a club ride, which, for some reason, people here believe is what i wanted to see. 

Racing, not pacing is my point. 

The yellow band thing was just a "I noticed this too, does it go along with the attitude thing?" statement. I don't really care if JU EMBRACES cancer and wishes it on everyone else, that's his choice, as it is to not wear the band. Wearing a band in support of a good cause doesn't conceed the race to LA, or anything stupid like that. Oh wait, maybe it does, yeah, that piece of rubber will totally signify the white flag. right.....

The reason I brought up about the crash last year and JU having to be TOLD to slow and wait for the yellow jersey, was because it went with the attitude thing. How can someone think he didn't know?? No radios for the pink team? yeah okay. no team cars hovering around? yeahhhhhh. he knew, everyone knew probably right after it happened. they have tv's in their cars for heaven's sake.......

there was no reason that landis couldn't have that stage win, especially after all the work he did. even if one of the other riders had taken it, what would it have done to the GC? nothing. give credit where credit is due, reward the horse.......

i'm going to put on my yellow band and go to work, thus throwing in the towel for this post.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*Could be something to it*

The University Football program here painted the opposing teams locker room pink 20 some odd years ago. They have kept it that way ever since.

They swear it is a demotivating color and has significant impact on the other teams performance.

They rarely loose a home game so there could be something to it. 


the_dude said:


> Everyone knows Ullrich would win every year if it weren't for that girly pink. There's even scientific proof to back it up.
> 
> the_dude


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## biknben (Jan 28, 2004)

*Chiming in regarding race tactics...*



ebroil said:


> Thanks to russw19 for finally pointing this out.
> 
> If Ullrich works with Landis and Armstrong, he's going to get no better than 2nd (They're not going to let him take it being outnumbered 2-1. It simply wouldn't happen, especially considering how strong Armstrong was today) and Kloden is going to get no better than 4th (and could lose time to Basso). All Ullrich will get is a few seconds against Basso. Instead, he sits up, lets Kloden catch back on, and Kloden proceeds to make what is within inches of being the winning move. T-mobile gets 2-3. There is absolutely no way he made the wrong tactical decision. He got a better result this way than would have been possible dropping Kloden.


I don't think Ullrich had any intention of waiting for his teammate. He chased and caught Landis while LA sat on. As the 3 came together, the rider in third position will typically counter-attack or pull through. I believe the arm-waving that ensued was a result of Ullrich expecting LA to continue the pace once Landis was caught. I can see Ullrich's POV on that one. OTOH, LA already had an insurmountable lead and would rather see Landis win. You can't blame him for sitting up.

One advanteage to getting a big lead for the GC is that you can benefit from other riders who are fighting for the podium. LA sat up and let everything come together. He watched as a little catfight ensued. He did take his pulls coming into the finish as if he was setting Landis up as much as he could. Landis took his flyer at 1.5K and was pulled back by Ullrich. Then Kloden took his flyer and was _nearly_ brought back by Landis. LA just happened to be next in the rotation and pounced. It was a beautiful thing to watch and a perfect example of small break tactics. Game On!!!!


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## SlowSchmo (Jul 21, 2004)

Just because someone doesn't want to talk to some punter does not make them an @$$hole. These are professional athletes, and this is their biggest 'job'. They've got other things to do and think about than signing some fan's napkin. How would you like it if some putz storms into your office or construction site demanding you do something for them? You'd tell them to "blow it out their stinky end."


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*what's a punter?*



SlowSchmo said:


> Just because someone doesn't want to talk to some punter does not make them an @$$hole. These are professional athletes, and this is their biggest 'job'. They've got other things to do and think about than signing some fan's napkin. How would you like it if some putz storms into your office or construction site demanding you do something for them? You'd tell them to "blow it out their stinky end."


I don't know, or really care, whether LA signs "napkins". my reasons for thinking he's a toolbox are the way in which he carries himself within the sport, with opponents...with former US tour winners. with anyone with whom he disagrees. He's the complete opposite of a rider like Hamilton. The epitome of arrogance and self absorbtion. Part of that comes from success, but part of it comes from...being an a-hole by nature. but seriously..what's a punter?


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Behind his own team mate!!!*

There are 143 riders who are also not repeatedly touted as the "most talented rider in the peleton". You think Jan is happy with 4th?


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*So "Lance is the consumate wheelsucker". . .*

. . .is an astute observation, but describing Jan as a wheelsucker "just shows that you don't have it all up there"?

It seems perfecty possible that Ullrich was looking to Armstrong and Landis to keep the pace up so they could all do themselves the favor of dropping Basso and Kloden.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*oh for more footage*

and information from the Riders...

Kudos to Floyd for turning himself inside out on the climb. Kudos to LA for trying to get Floyd the stage win. 

When Floyd took the flyer on the descent, why did LA go with him? that I don't understand...

But I bet JU's eye lit up when he saw the attack...here is a chance to get time on potential rivals for the podium...so what if one happens to be my teammate...

I do view JU's move as somewhat treacherous...and I applaud him for creating some action. (If Kloden was clearly the team leader, well maybe I'd think something else. But Kloden being able to ride for himself is different from being team leader.)

I don't think that Jan was looking for the win, I'm over toward Jan wanting another minute on Basso and Kloden before Saturday. Subtle treachery...probably too subtle for any of us to know what really happened.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

mmoose said:


> ...
> When Floyd took the flyer on the descent, why did LA go with him? that I don't understand...
> ...
> I do view JU's move as somewhat treacherous...and I applaud him for creating some action. (If Kloden was clearly the team leader, well maybe I'd think something else. But Kloden being able to ride for himself is different from being team leader.)
> ...


When Floyd took off, Lance did not go with him. That was the plan. Floyd go by himself on an all out downhill attack.

Jan covered the attack. He's supposed to. Why give the stage away? Basso and Kloden got gapped since they didn't have the power.

Lance came up to Floyd and Jan and offered Jan a deal. Jan, you pull with us and we can help you gap Basso and Kloden. We will help you get second place if you help us let Floyd win. Jan said 'F' you. Who do you think you are? I'm not ditching my team mate just to get second place. And I'm not gifting this stage to Floyd or Lance.

That's the way I call it. It's as clear as day. The communication between Lance and Jan is pretty clear. The post-race interview with Lance and Floyd say the same thing as well.

Bravo Jan for your decision. Bravo Floyd for your magical work. And bravo Lance for winning the stage (got some ball though asking Jan for favors).

francois


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*bravo to you*

for seeing it pretty clearly. Both Telekom and USPS had 2 riders left. IMHO USPS once again showed better tactics as T-Mob could have sent and sat-on the chase just as well.
Personally if there was a 'deal' LA again is acting as True patron. He doesn't need balls to make such offers, he's setting the rules coming from a mindset that says "all of you are my inferiors so here's the deal, if you don't want it, I'll crush any/all other options" see todays Simeoni gig. So LA wants to get Floyd a stage, sends Floyd, now as a team mate all he has to do is sit on which puts him at an advantage for the sprint. This is the old Mapei, Domo Fram Frites clasics method that has been the undoing of Mr Hincapie. LA offers the 'deal' I'll help get ya time and possibly a podium, you let Floyd go. Jan refuses, Jan get's nothing.


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## SlowSchmo (Jul 21, 2004)

Punter. A combination or words used to describe someone who pi$$es others off. The P from prick, the derogatory word for male genitalia, and UNT from the worse word for the female's. The ER is just to give the word two syllables instead of PUNT.


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## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

czardonic said:


> There are 143 riders who are also not repeatedly touted as the "most talented rider in the peleton". You think Jan is happy with 4th?


Right now, I bet he would say no.... he's not happy. But a few years later, he may be. I think "not content" would be a better choice of words. I am not trying to say Jan will settle for 4th place with a big ol' grin on his face... but to say he has "nothing to show" for his Tour is a bit silly. 4th place still keeps you as the top rider on Telekom, even when 2nd place goes to your teammate. 

At least that's my opinion on it.

How happy was everyone last year when Hamilton finished 4th? To say that is nothing to show for a Tour kinda slaps him in the face right along with Jan. And that was my issue with what was said.


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## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

russw19 said:


> Right now, I bet he would say no.... he's not happy. But a few years later, he may be. I think "not content" would be a better choice of words. I am not trying to say Jan will settle for 4th place with a big ol' grin on his face... but to say he has "nothing to show" for his Tour is a bit silly. 4th place still keeps you as the top rider on Telekom, even when 2nd place goes to your teammate.
> 
> At least that's my opinion on it.
> 
> How happy was everyone last year when Hamilton finished 4th? To say that is nothing to show for a Tour kinda slaps him in the face right along with Jan. And that was my issue with what was said.


I couldn't agree more with what you have said. 

Very well put!


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

....an Jan only had to train 8 weeks for the TdF.


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