# Help me justify RED



## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

I need some reasons to get RED over Force or Rival. 

Other than weight and bling what is my justification for buying RED?


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## The Flash (May 6, 2002)

If you really want a big ring trim option or if you have small hands, get the RED shifters. OTT, get Force for everything else....


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## euro trash (Sep 16, 2005)

honestly... I think a full Force group with a Red cassette and chain is a better idea than full Red, those 2 pieces will drop some nice weight off that group.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

> I think a full Force group with a Red cassette and chain is a better idea than full Red


I'm not sure, but I think that full Red might be cheaper. (for me)


> If you really want a big ring trim option or if you have small hands, get the RED shifters.


It's all or nothing, Red shifters is not an option. I can set a bike up properly, so the trim function isn't a huge bonus (I also thought that Rival and Force had trim?), and I definitely don't have small hands.

I'm not shooting down your suggestions, just thinking about the counter-argument. Thanks for the replys.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

I'm sitting on the fence and waiting for the first Red component to be recalled (remember Force brakes?). I'll let the first few thousand new Red owners be the true _Beta_ testers before I start putting down my own coin on Red. As with new automobiles, it's not always a good idea to purchase the first year's run.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

Most of the time manufacturers will give great pro-deals/employee deals/deals to people in the bike biz on new products so that they can have as many bikes as possible with their product on it, even better if its on a bike that will be seen, like a great local racer's bike, or the bike of a head mechanic, or on the bike of the guy that everybody recognizes as "the bike guy"

That being said I haven't checked with anybody and I don't know if Sram will do this, especially since the group is highly anticipated.

Also, Sram was pretty good at getting people replacements/upgrades for Rival and Force.


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## The Flash (May 6, 2002)

SRAM did a pretty good job with my brakes and bottom bracket that blew out....had replacements within 2 days....

I'm on the wait list for those shifters for my small hands. I am hoping to see a set in the next couple of weeks....


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## euro trash (Sep 16, 2005)

threesportsinone said:


> I'm not sure, but I think that full Red might be cheaper. (for me)


then maybe I misunderstood your question. if you can get Red for cheaper / close to the same price as Force, then why are you trying to justify anything? :idea: get Red!


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

I only own/ride Rival on two bikes and have never tried Red. I've heard really great things about Red but, I just can't justify the price of Red...unless of course money is no object and you have to have the latest and greatest. My Rival works perfectly. I don't feel like it needs any "improvement"...but like I said, I have never ridden Red, so I guess I don't know what I am missing. Although I like my Rival, I'm still a little pissed at SRAM for putting out Force/Rival and almost immediately coming out with another group that took care of the "shortcomings" of Force/Rival. It seems if they had done just a little more testing and/or consumer focus groups they could have made Force/Rival the functional equivalent of Red right off the bat.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I don't think SRAM did enough to differentiate Red from Force. The major difference functionally is the shifters, but it's a lot to pay for trim adjustment, especially if, like me, you've never had a problem with trim adjustment on the big chain (I've never even had to use trim adjustment on the small chain). 

The only other major difference is in bearings. Ceramic bearings in rear derailleur pulleys seems a bit gimicky to me, and $300 for a rear derailleur is stupid. The new crankset has nice graphics, but only shaves 30 grams off of Force. There are others around like the K force light that are 100+ grams lighter.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

> I don't think SRAM did enough to differentiate Red from Force. The major difference functionally is the shifters, but it's a lot to pay for trim adjustment, especially if, like me, you've never had a problem with trim adjustment on the big chain (I've never even had to use trim adjustment on the small chain).
> 
> The only other major difference is in bearings. Ceramic bearings in rear derailleur pulleys seems a bit gimicky to me, and $300 for a rear derailleur is stupid. The new crankset has nice graphics, but only shaves 30 grams off of Force. There are others around like the K force light that are 100+ grams lighter.


Thank you, thats what I was looking for. I think I may just get Rival, FSA crankset, and a Red cassette. Rival is only 114 grams heavier than Force (according to SRAM), and if I went with Red I would have to be finding places to add on weight.


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## orlin03 (Dec 11, 2007)

I just ordered a Red crank, ceramic BB, and front derailer, and should be trying them out by the middle of the month. I went with this setup because: 
1. I wanted something super stiff for powering up hills, and Red seems to be up to the task, promising to be stiffer than Dura Ace and far stiffer than Force.
2. I've really been wanting an excuse to try ceramic bearings, and the price is hard to beat.
3. It is fairly light for a crank in it's price range (the price before ceramic upgrade).
4. I want to be the first guy in my area with it!


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

Actually SRAM made a lot of changes other than the trim function. 

1) On Red, the lengths and shapes of the both the brake levers and shifter paddles are different, due to response to rider feedback. (Improvement, or just different? I don't know).
2) The throw on the front shifter has been reduced to make it easier/quicker to shift in and out of the big chain ring. (I wouldn't mind having that).
3) The derailleur cables can be now be routed behind or in front of the handlebar, a la Campy. (I want that as now I can only use bars with the groove behind the bar since I don't like a big lump back there from the cable).
4) Red incorporates that ability to adjust the brake lever reach to accomodate people with smaller hands. (Good for some people I guess).
5) The brake bearings and races were redesigned so they operate much smoother. (I swapped out my Rival brakes for Dura Ace because I did not like the way the Rivals operated). 
6) The addition of magnesium and titanium to lighten the components.
7) The fancy "Powerdome" one-piece cassette, which is supposed to be designed to be lighter and improve rear shifting.


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Retro Grouch said:


> I'm sitting on the fence and waiting for the first Red component to be recalled (remember Force brakes?).


This is a flawed argument. There was never a problem with the design of the brakes. The problem was that the supplier of the titanium bolts sent SRAM some parts that didn't meet the quality specs.

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/11625.0.html


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

Fivethumbs said:


> Actually SRAM made a lot of changes other than the trim function.
> 
> 2) The throw on the front shifter has been reduced to make it easier/quicker to shift in and out of the big chain ring. (I wouldn't mind having that).


Amen to that! 

That said, I'm curious about whether I can just get the Red shifters and use either my Rival FD or a D/A FD or do I need to buy the Red FD for best performance? Any ideas on that? I guess asked differently, does the reduced front throw of Red compensate the need for a narrower derailleur cage?

I have Rival on my road and CX and other than the front shifting, I love it. The front needs a lot of attention in setup to get the tension right and keep it that way.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

The Red Front Der. is about the same price as the DA one. I got the red group and noticed immediately that the brakes are more powerful and better quality built. The shifters have a much quicker engagement for shifting on the front and rear, trim in big ring for the front so setup is a bit easier. I'm coming off of force, and had that setup with no rub in the big ring in any cog. Brake levers are a bit longer too, hard to notice until you put up side by side. 

I also opted not to get the ceramic BB, cheaper to get the bearing separate and put them in myself. That knocked over $100 bucks off the group, plus the Cermic BB is not full Cermaic, it's a cermic hybrid. Ceramic balls on high grade dense steel races. Full ceramics have Ceramic balls and races. Plus I put 6000 miles on a Standard bottom bracket and it felt smooth enough to me. 

I didn't need the group, but wanted it. Still don't have the red cassette, was out of stock, so I'll have to wait on that. I love the brakes though, before I went to force I had DA, and the DA brakes were nicer looking and feeling, but I still used force since it was lighter.

Though it seems like if you want sram, the real question is should I get Rival or Red, The only thing Force you would want is the Crank if you get the rest Rival, but then the Red Crank isn't that much more if you get the Standard GXP BB and not Ceramic. I guess if I was on a budget, I would take all rival, but if I wanted a more optimal build I would get the Rival Shifters, Front and Rear Derailleurs, with Red Crankset and Brakes, and the cassette would be whatever, like one 1070 and one 1090.


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## orlin03 (Dec 11, 2007)

TedH said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> That said, I'm curious about whether I can just get the Red shifters and use either my Rival FD or a D/A FD or do I need to buy the Red FD for best performance? Any ideas on that? I guess asked differently, does the reduced front throw of Red compensate the need for a narrower derailleur cage?
> 
> I have Rival on my road and CX and other than the front shifting, I love it. The front needs a lot of attention in setup to get the tension right and keep it that way.


According to my dealer, the front derailler should work fine with either, and I will be shifting mine with a D/A shifter until I save up for the Red shifters. The way I took it, the reduced throw is a product of more efficient movement through the use of better designed parts. I will let you know if there are any issues. The rear derailler, however, will not work with D/A shifters.


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

Thanks for the info. I'm fine with the rear shifting, it is the front that can be a pain with overthrow.


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## nrspeed (Jan 28, 2005)

I am running Red calipers, Red cassette, and Red front and rear derailleurs. I am sticking with Force brifters since I can't justify the extra dough yet. I am also using a Campy Record UT crank, which is the best crank out there IMO.


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## orlin03 (Dec 11, 2007)

nrspeed said:


> I am running Red calipers, Red cassette, and Red front and rear derailleurs. I am sticking with Force brifters since I can't justify the extra dough yet. I am also using a Campy Record UT crank, which is the best crank out there IMO.


What are your thoughts on the Red parts that you are using? Were they worth the extra dough?


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*So what was this about???*

This is a recall of Force brakes.

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml07/07153.html

FYI - I never cited there was problem with the design of the brakes.



Cyclo-phile said:


> This is a flawed argument. There was never a problem with the design of the brakes. The problem was that the supplier of the titanium bolts sent SRAM some parts that didn't meet the quality specs.
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/11625.0.html


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## nrspeed (Jan 28, 2005)

orlin03 said:


> What are your thoughts on the Red parts that you are using? Were they worth the extra dough?



"worth" is a relative term. There has been too much snow here lately and I haven't completed the build yet to try it out. I was pleased with the Rival calipers I used before and they came in 10 grams below my record skeletons. The cassette looks sweet but the dérailleurs are of a lesser finish quality than record. Time will tell if they hold up well. I found the Red calipers for cheaper than Force on ebay and got 10% off the other items from Excelsports warehouse sale in Boulder. Not bad for a new group.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

Do you own a watch? What kind? A Rolex? Any other swiss automatic? How about a grand seiko? 
If you compare the cost of merely servicing a Rolex, another coupla hundred bucks is nothing. 
I have a rediculous thing for watches. I'm not a rich guy. I've been thinking about purchasing an Omega watch I've been drooling over for a while. But later on this summer, when I go to a shop and see the sweet DeRosa or record laden frameset and say "I can't possibly spend that on a bike. I don't race". Its a bit hypocritical when I look down at my watch, which was also expensive. 
Bike stuff is inexpensive by comparison. 
Fwiw, I've decided to spend Only 800 on a watch by Ocean7, instead of the Omega. The amount of time and appreciation you have on your bike is worth every penny.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

> Do you own a watch? What kind?


Citizen, charges with light, pretty sweet. Generally I just use my glorified pocket watch (read: cell phone). 

Just to keep the analogy going, does your Rolex tell time better than your cell phone? why do you prefer your Rolex? why do I want to spend more on components when I can buy cheaper ones that, to my knowledge, work just as well?


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