# To clear up Contador's strategy etc for those



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

who think he's an a*hole and a doofus and an idiot and all that.

The Eurosport interview after the race had him say this:

The plan all along was to bring Andreas Klöden to the line for the win. He asked Andreas if he could have gone with him and Andreas said he could. So he attacked soon after that. Then he realized something was amiss when he saw that Klöden WASN'T there and CLEARLY, or rather, since some people are blind, not so clearly to them, Alberto Contador SLOWED down so that Klöden could catch up. He tried to keep waiting and kept looking back as you can see if you're not too busy with hatred for him and thinking he's a bastard.

Also, by then, Klöden clearly cracked like an egg and got worse as the climb went on, as evidence of his time gap increasing shows.

Then, Alberto stopped taking the pace up totally once he slowed down. He let the brothers do the work.

What else was he supposed to do? Slow down and wait for Klöden and lose time? You gotta be effin kidding if you think so.

He kept refusing to work in the downhill segment.

And, the Schlecks were gonna try and attack him for sure. So, he made a deal with them or something so that they would take the stage and that he won't work at all.

This gives Lance AND Andreas the chance to close back on the time.

And, it puts them in a rather ood position to take their podium spots with the TT at least.

Contador did nothing wrong at all. In fact, he was a perfect teammate even with the yellow on.

He could have attacked harder and just gone on a solo ride and descent for the win because he clearly is a good descender as well. Andy would definitely go together with Frank anyway and they would lose more time on him.

But, he didn't. He waited and just followed. Nothing wrong at all. So before you keep lashing out and thinking he's an a$$hole and selfish bastard, think first. 


This is called team tactics. It was there. It didn't work out. It changes.

Alberto kept saying a couple of times that he was really, really disappointed NOT in Klöden but instead because Klöden could not follow since he really wanted Andreas to win today's stage.

There. Anything else?

Jeez.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Thank you uzziefly.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Kloden put the Schlecks in a position to roast themselves on that climb, and on the descent. They'll have a tough time in the TT. 

A lot of people don't understand bicycle racing. AC cannot push Kloden and Armstrong up the road. A teammate on the back of 2 attackers is a block, and a gift to the team in a stage race. 

The team wasn't there to cash the cheque (Kloden cracked bad, Armstrong too far back, etc). 

Chapeau to Contador.


----------



## rydog9991 (Jul 15, 2008)

He really did slow down. It looked like the Schleks were pulling him back in but I watched it again and as soon as he looked back and saw Kloden wasn't coming he slowed down.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*and on the descent*

about 5K from the finish he gives Frank a 'the stage is yours' pat on the back
he did all he could without losing time


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*sure*

lets see what the TT brings.

Wouldnt it be swell if the Sclecks have their TT of a lifetime?????? Wouldnt that be a gasser?


----------



## poppy (May 29, 2006)

uzziefly said:


> who think he's an a*hole and a doofus and an idiot and all that.
> 
> The Eurosport interview after the race had him say this:
> 
> ...


Second that :thumbsup:


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....

If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.

If the brothers didn't attack, Kloden is able to fight for the win.

I don't see why Contador attacked seeing as he needs to save as much energy as possible for tomorrow and Friday. All he had to do today was mark the Schlecks.


I don't think he is an a$$hole, but I do think that he has made some weird and/or boneheaded moves.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Thank you Uzziefly! That's what I observed as well.

fc


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*you get it*



jsedlak said:


> But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....
> 
> If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY.......


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Thank God someone gets it; the Anti-Contador rubbish on here is tiresome and ignorant; his job is to win the Tour and that's what he is doing.

His comments show him to be a professional and a gentleman, with nothing in the way of trash-talking going on.


----------



## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

+1 and it's great to see the yellow jersey on the attack even when not strictly necessary, despite all the flag waving hater talk from the peanut gallery, truth is that Contador has panache showing the peloton just who is El Jefe. :thumbsup:


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

jsedlak said:


> But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....
> 
> If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.
> 
> ...


Interesting point. I could be posed that at the start, he was interested in putting time on the Brothers Schleck to consolidate his standing - nothing wrong with adding to the insurance policy in one of your areas of strength. If Kloden/Armstrong had been able to help more, perhaps he could have, and likely that was the plan. After they were shelled, it was simply those three going up the road. Neither side was going to give time, and both would have to try to make a gap... so the result is what it was.


----------



## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

jsedlak said:


> I don't think he is an a$$hole, but I do think that he has made some weird and/or boneheaded moves.



His "weird" moves are going to most likely win him the tour. Your boy Lance will make up the time in the TT and you can celebrate.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Obviously he didn't want to drop Klöden, but the fact of the matter is the attack did just that and it's doubtful it was necessary, or advisable, at that point in the race. Tactical error.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Oh for God's SAKE. He attacked because it was the BEST thing to do. Why sit there and just wait when you have a teammate that said he could follow you and the plan WAS to attack anyway so that you guys get a 1-2 on the stage?

The only issue was that Klöden got dropped because he cracked hard. Too hard. And Contador's attack is VERY powerful.

In fact, when he asked if Klöden could go with him and Andreas gave the affirmative, it was more of a yes he could follow but it'd be at a pace that he can ride the Schleck's off of course. He was never gonna be as explosive as Contador.

Contador DID NOT look like a jerk or that he made a boneheaded move. He explained. He didn't have to because the gestures and look on his face supposedly says it all. But he explained because he was asked his opinions and he probably also knew people don't understand stuff so it makes it clearer for him.

And, with regards to Armstrong - the guy was also a perfect teammate. He got caught out when Frank left and gone and he definitely looked like he could actually go. Maybe not as well, but he would have been there. 

BUT, Wiggins was there and caught out too. So the personal thing to do would be to bridge the gap the the teammate aspect was there from him so he WAITED with Wiggins and wore out VdV and Wiggins himself before he launched an attack on his own. Perfectly played.

Astana 1-4-5. Possibly 1-2-3 or 1-2-4 or something tomorrow. Can't be any better for them.

They had people to mark the attacks of the other favorites, they had a guy to support the yellow, they had a guy who put time into everyone else but the brothers, when it's a given they'd lose more time to him tomorrow even.

Man....


----------



## Time2ride (Apr 12, 2009)

Whatever happened to "you're innocent until proven guilty". While watching that breakaway attempt I felt something amiss until AC slowed down and looked back. Obviously to see where AK was. If you looked at it closely enough, you can see that he was not trying to distance himself from AK at all. I wish people here would stop ganging up on the riders. They are doing their job and they are doing a damn good job of it. Just watch the bloody race and enjoy it. We don't know what the team tactics are and we certainly don't know what is really going through the minds of the riders, until the interviews at the end of the stage. We can only assume, and we all know what that means.

I really appreciate this post. Finally someone took the time to put things straight.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

kef3844 said:


> His "weird" moves are going to most likely win him the tour. Your boy Lance will make up the time in the TT and you can celebrate.


So now I am a Lance fan because I don't agree with Contador's moves?


----------



## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

Looks like contador was trying to give kloden the limelight today and it just wasn't there. No way astana is pissed about anything.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....
> 
> If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.
> 
> ...


Erm, nope. Not weird at all.

IF the brothers didn't attack, Klöden would have to sprint against Andy and would have lost. Contador would/might have won but Andy and Frank would be 2nd and 3rd for sure. Klöden would have been 4th.

Plan not accomplished at all.

If the Schlecks attacked, yes, Andreas would be dropped. But, they didn't. And the plan was not so they would attack. But the plan was obviously (guess not) to attack and break them and get the Astana 1-2 for the day and hand Klöden a victory for all his hard work in the past days. 

He (Contador) attacked for the reasons above. Save energy? Sure. Not against the Schlecks. No issue for them. Wiggins? Armstrong took care of him today at least. So. No need to save that much anyway. 

And, sure, you can win the Tour by following and all, but AC is kinda like an LA in that he'd wanna win by as much as he can. But, he was also a teammate and did not b!tch move Klöden by going despite him cracking because he didn't want to. He could. But he didn't. Going would have solidified his lead. But, a true teammate, and true to his initial word and the initial plan, he just followed and got the Schlecks to work harder even.


----------



## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Wait. Isn't this thread missing someone 'splainin' how this is all part of Lance's master plan. LOL.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Indeed. 

Klöden wasn't pissed. Contador was upset that the plan didn't work. He kept reiterating he was on very good terms with Andreas as well and really wanted him to win today.

Armstrong was unfortunate that he got stuck with Bradley. It definitely looked like he could have finished not far off from Alberto today. But, if he was riding for himself, he would be in that position. 

So, we saw today, he rode FOR THE TEAM. Sure, maybe it's coz his hopes are slim. But still, it was a team move when he stuck with Bradley and wore the Garmin guys out. Then he went for the decisive punch. Even Nibali got dropped. But damn, that guy sure can descend!

And, Armstrong is actually a very good descender too! 

The only bummer for Astana today: Klöden got cooked reallll bad. Armstrong got stuck in a way. They could have gotten an overall 1-2-3 today without a doubt had things work out their way.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Pablo said:


> Wait. Isn't this thread missing someone 'splainin' how this is all part of Lance's master plan. LOL.


Ok and all this was Lance's plan.

There. Thread complete.


----------



## Winger (Feb 1, 2006)

*Just one question....*

I have no problems with Contador's (Johan's?) tactics, as the main goal is to wear the yellow jersey at the end of the three weeks. So he's doing perfectly fine there... but... if the goal is for Kloden to win the stage... and he says he can go... why doesn't Kloden go for it and attack? If the Schleks go with Kloden, Contador follows. If neither can follow Kloden then Contador saves some energy for the TT and Ventoux by sticking on the Schlek's wheel and still loses nothing to either Saxo rider.

The only reason I see that makes total sense is that Contador wanted more time on everyone that he considers decent at time trialing. Which if he wants to keep the percentages in his favor at the end of the day is smart... and worked out well.


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

> Obviously he didn't want to drop Klöden, but the fact of the matter is the attack did just that and it's doubtful it was necessary, or advisable, at that point in the race. Tactical error.


this i believe: *tactical error*.
i havent seen the stage yet, but from what i read on CN as it unflded, Contador asked Kloden something a few times, and Kloden shook his head. to me this would indicate a negative response. as i read it, i envisioned conti asking kloden if he was ready to attack. that is, of course, conjecture.

uzzie, you have it right as far as him having to leave kloden behind after he couldnt follow and then gifting the stage to the schlecks, but:
1) why did he attack when he did? he must not have known kloden was in the shape he was in. so what was he asking about?

2) the schlecks should have pummeled him. im still confused as to why they didn't. they had numbers, and physical strength. 

3) if his attack was to dig more time into wiggins, why didnt he continue to work once that break got away? it didnt really matter with wiggins, as you saw him eventually get dropped anyway.

im not saying contador is a jerk. i just dont understand the initial move/attack that started it all. if you attack, you attack, right? slowing down to wait for kloden is what throws this off. i blasted LA for his "contador has a lot to learn" tweat earlier this year. but here, it looks like he does.
(and did the schlecks counter after they saw him slow down? if not, why not? too cooked?)


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Winger said:


> I have no problems with Contador's (Johan's?) tactics, as the main goal is to wear the yellow jersey at the end of the three weeks. So he's doing perfectly fine there... but... if the goal is for Kloden to win the stage... and he says he can go... why doesn't Kloden go for it and attack? If the Schleks go with Kloden, Contador follows. If neither can follow Kloden then Contador saves some energy for the TT and Ventoux by sticking on the Schlek's wheel and still loses nothing to either Saxo rider.
> 
> The only reason I see that makes total sense is that Contador wanted more time on everyone that he considers decent at time trialing. Which if he wants to keep the percentages in his favor at the end of the day is smart... and worked out well.


Klöden doesn't attack because he can't spring away for one.

And, it was for Andreas to take the stage, but the plan was also for an Astana 1-2.

It was more likely that Alberto would break their legs and then Andreas just ride at fast tempo and shed the brothers than Klöden attack and the brothers not being able to follow. 

And, Contador was the one to attack also because he's the maillot jaune wearer so it's Astana's priority to take care of him first and then the other podium spots next.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> Erm, nope. Not weird at all.
> 
> IF the brothers didn't attack, Klöden would have to sprint against Andy and would have lost. Contador would/might have won but Andy and Frank would be 2nd and 3rd for sure. Klöden would have been 4th.
> 
> Plan not accomplished at all.


This makes no sense at all. Kloden was ahead of the Super Schleck Bros at the beginning of the stage. If he finished with them, he would have moved into 2nd place and Lance down in 5th. Instead, because of Contador, Kloden and LA are in 5th and 4th.

I don't understand how a sprint would recreate the gaps that were created by the attack and subsequent cracking of Kloden.

All of this if stuff is useless though, especially since Kloden gave Contador the go-ahead to attack.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

weltyed said:


> this i believe: *tactical error*.
> i havent seen the stage yet, but from what i read on CN as it unflded, Contador asked Kloden something a few times, and Kloden shook his head. to me this would indicate a negative response. as i read it, i envisioned conti asking kloden if he was ready to attack. that is, of course, conjecture.
> 
> uzzie, you have it right as far as him having to leave kloden behind after he couldnt follow and then gifting the stage to the schlecks, but:
> ...


He asked Andreas if he could go. Andreas said he was ready. Guess he thought wrong! And he might not have thought the sting would have been that hard.

Schleck brothers:

They didn't pummel Contador because they got pummeled by his attack actually. They were stranded right up till Andy pushed a little and Alberto slowed down. No way they would have gone. If they tried, he'd smoke them today. They gained the most from Klöden's cracking today actually. 

His attack (Alberto's) was to break the Schlecks and perhaps seal more time and also indirectly help Andreas and Lance along the way. They'd be cooked. They'd chase harder. They'd be even more spent. They can't TT well. Job done. Oh and, he pulls more time. As far as Bradley goes - well, he didn't continue because he didn't want to seem like an ass perhaps to Andreas because of their initial plan (and of course team tactics) so he waited. Because if he went, the Schlecks go and Klöden goes backwards even more.

He already has a big buffer with Bradley so that's not too big an issue. And, the Ventoux is gonna see him get more time on Wiggins anyway even if he loses some time in the ITT. Although, he's looking like a top TT rider now as far as GC guys come into play. Only Andreas, Levi and perhaps Bradley are in the same class as him as far as GC TT ability goes. And climbing too. Lance is close as well I suppose. 

And, again, he stopped because he knew the Schlecks were done and he just didn't want Andreas to lose more I suppose.

Sure, he's riding for yellow and could have gone like I've said somewhere. But, he didn't need to bother about the brothers in all due respect to them with regards to the TT. Frank is out. Andy is very likely out. And, while the main goal of Astana is yellow, I'm sure the riders also wanted a 1-2-3 if possible (more so today than before I suppose) and it seems like this is Alberto's goal other than his own ambitions too.

Astana took care of him and their main guys (Lance and Andreas) did perfect jobs these few days, so, Alberto is just doing what he can for them to podium IMO.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> Klöden doesn't attack because he can't spring away for one.
> 
> And, it was for Andreas to take the stage, but the plan was also for an Astana 1-2.
> 
> ...


If Contador tried to break the Schlecks, Kloden would have been shelled as well. There is no way he is following if Andy/Frank can't.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Wait a sec, did Contador lose time on today's stage?

With all of this talk about his big tactical blunder, I'd have to assume he did.


----------



## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Contador rode for Contador today not for the team. I am a Contador fan and think he was brilliant today, but I read it differently. 
He indicated (hand signal clear as day) to Kloden before he attacked that he was going up the road in a while. He went - when he saw that Kloden was broken (my take), he slowed and let the Schlecks catch him.
What possible reason could he have for not going on to win the stage, while demoralizing the brothers, who were suffering big time, other than payback to Armstrong and Co?

If LA's New Team announcement tomorrow includes Alberto, I'll take the above back and say I was wrong.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> He asked Andreas if he could go. Andreas said he was ready. Guess he thought wrong! And he might not have thought the sting would have been that hard.
> 
> Schleck brothers:
> 
> ...


He didn't have to break the Schlecks! He just had to get Kloden to the line with them and he would have been in second....


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

albert owen said:


> Contador rode for Contador today not for the team. I am a Contador fan and think he was brilliant today, but I read it differently.
> He indicated (hand signal clear as day) to Kloden before he attacked that he was going up the road in a while. He went - when he saw that Kloden was broken (my take), he slowed and let the Schlecks catch him.
> What possible reason could he have for not going on to win the stage, while demoralizing the brothers, who were suffering big time, other than payback to Armstrong and Co?


Your clairvoyance is astounding.

And, by the way, Contador riding for Contador is the exact same thing as Contador riding for the team.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Hilarious....

With all these armchair DSs, I'm thinking about why Johan gets paid so much, surely his job is in jeopardy?

...and Contador, I mean he is only the best stage racer in the world, but he could really pick up a few tips by spending time here instead of messing about on that bike.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

pretender said:


> Your clairvoyance is astounding.
> 
> And, by the way, Contador riding for Contador is the exact same thing as Contador riding for the team.


Not if the ambitions are bigger than just him in yellow.


----------



## WeakMite (Feb 20, 2005)

The Schleks are still gonna have to dance pretty hard one more time to hope for even a podium for Andy. They're gonna have to rule the Ventoux.

They lost 3:41 and 5:17 in the (53km TT) in last years TdF (I corrected for Schumacher removal... hehehe) They won't lose this much tomorrow as Annecy is 40.5km. But Armstrong will be catching Frank tomorrow during tomorrow's TT. 

1) Alberto Contador -- 2:27:09 
2) Andy Schleck ------ 0:02:26 
3) Fränk Schleck ----- 0:03:25 = 0:59 to Andy
4) Lance Armstrong --- 0:03:55 = 1:29 to Andy
5) Andreas Klöden ---- 0:04:44 = 2:18 to Andy
6) Bradley Wiggins --- 0:04:53 = 2:27 to Andy


----------



## Wborgers (Oct 6, 2008)

Totally agree this was not in the best interest of Astana- all about AC- now lots of pressure on his teammates in the TT if they want the podium sweep that I think was the goal all along. Schlecks got a big bone tossed their way and I don't buy Contador needed time on Wiggins for the TT- Kloden never came close to reacting to the attack- do not buy he cleared it with him as a plan- not what I saw- could be wrong but not how it looked to me.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

"Just" winning the Tour. Good one.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

albert owen said:


> Contador rode for Contador today not for the team. I am a Contador fan and think he was brilliant today, but I read it differently.
> He indicated (hand signal clear as day) to Kloden before he attacked that he was going up the road in a while. He went - when he saw that Kloden was broken (my take), he slowed and let the Schlecks catch him.
> What possible reason could he have for not going on to win the stage, while demoralizing the brothers, who were suffering big time, other than payback to Armstrong and Co?
> 
> If LA's New Team announcement tomorrow includes Alberto, I'll take the above back and say I was wrong.


Yup, he obviously lied about wanting Klöden to win and that damn, the payback to Astana for his fault at being gapped the other day is such a big deal to him.


----------



## harlond (May 30, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> Erm, nope. Not weird at all.
> 
> *IF the brothers didn't attack, Klöden would have to sprint against Andy and would have lost.* Contador would/might have won but Andy and Frank would be 2nd and 3rd for sure. Klöden would have been 4th.
> 
> ...


Andy can't sprint at all. This explanation just doesn't hold together. If you want Kloeden to get the win, you either have Kloeden attack or you keep Kloeden in reserve until the sprint, when if he can't outsprint the Schlecks he should be ashamed of himself. If Kloeden escapes and gets a margin, Contador can still try to get away from the Schlecks, either with an uphill attack or by hitting the descent hard, the Schlecks--particularly Frank--not being known as great descenders. Either way, with Kloeden up the road, the Schlecks have to work to preserve their podium chances, and the plan of breaking the Schlecks is fulfilled. Having Contador attack first to implement the plan of getting Kloeden the win/breaking the Schlecks doesn't seem to make sense.

BTW, I'm rooting for AC, I just think this was a big mistake.


----------



## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

pretender said:


> Your clairvoyance is astounding.
> And, by the way, Contador riding for Contador is the exact same thing as Contador riding for the team.


Hehehehe!!:thumbsup: 



albert owen said:


> If LA's New Team announcement tomorrow includes Alberto, I'll take the above back and say I was wrong.


Oh, I don't think you need to wait around that long.....


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> If Contador tried to break the Schlecks, Kloden would have been shelled as well. There is no way he is following if Andy/Frank can't.


But of course, he asked Andreas first and that's why he went. They definitely knew the brothers were near their limit and Andreas felt good apparently. But then he just hit the wall it seems. 

If he didn't, I'm certain Andreas would have rode the brothers off his wheel after a little while. They really could not go it seems. 

Then there's also the added fact that you don't doubt your teammate when he says something and feel he's not capable.


----------



## Beethoven (Jul 28, 2005)

It looked to me like uzziefly reads it. What I didn't like--at to me that's typical AC--is that he made that gesture of giving the Schlecks the stage at least three times (padding them on the back, talking to them, waving them by, so that the cameras could catch it from every angle. It looked terribly condescending.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

olr1 said:


> Hilarious....
> 
> With all these armchair DSs, I'm thinking about why Johan gets paid so much, surely his job is in jeopardy?
> 
> ...and Contador, I mean he is only the best stage racer in the world, but he could really pick up a few tips by spending time here instead of messing about on that bike.


Who is talking about this armchair nonsense? Even JB agrees:

http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/race_recaps/tdfst1709.html



> "At the moment the Schlecks went Contador and Klöden went so it was fine. We knew the Schlecks would go to the end because they wanted to get rid of Bradley Wiggins. The attack from Contador at 3km from the top, *I had advised Alberto not to go because he didn’t need to go. He didn’t need to go because it was clear that the Schlecks would go full gas to the finish. I told him, ‘You don’t have to attack to win the Tour de France today’*..."


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....
> 
> If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.
> 
> ...


Uzziefly got it right. Why was the attack necessary? To get rid of Schleck brothers, or at least one of them. They have done a lot of work and could have cracked. The day before Frank was in difficulty a few times and earlier today Andy was in small difficulty when Frank was driving the larger group (when Armstrong was still there). Contador should have tested them, it was a good idea, provided that Kloden could follow. He said he could, but apparently he couldn't - not Contador's fault. Too bad.

In general, I'd rather see people attack than follow wheels, which is why I like watching someone like Vino, rather than Cadel (or Kloden for that matter).


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*you got it*



jsedlak said:


> Who is talking about this armchair nonsense? Even JB agrees:
> 
> http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/race_recaps/tdfst1709.html


Correct, you have Ventoux and a TT coming, save the juice on the days you will need it. The attack was not needed.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

And, this just in from Levi: Alberto and Andreas spoke to each other in Englsih. And there was a possible radio problem too. So, there might have been some misunderstanding in the interpretation of what Klöden said to Alberto on his part since his English isn't as fantastic and I doubt Andreas knows much Spanish too.

So, this could also be a reason why Klöden got dropped. Makes some sense. Why? Coz it'd be a little weird for him to say he was able to go and then really suffer after the attack was made. 

Lends more light to the situation.

But, even though, Alberto did nothing wrong even if it was misunderstood as Klöden saying he could go. That's why he looked back anyway and looked a little surprised and disappointed. 

The radio problems could further lend credence to this possible explanation form Levi. (Levi did not say anything about the radio though)


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

How do you say no in Spanish?


----------



## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Beethoven said:


> It looked to me like uzziefly reads it. What I didn't like--at to me that's typical AC--is that he made that gesture of giving the Schlecks the stage at least three times (padding them on the back, talking to them, waving them by, so that the cameras could catch it from every angle. It looked terribly condescending.


Yeah, I can agree with that. He wants to portay himself as "classy" and a generous leader, but comes off looking condescending on TV.


----------



## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

if you would have listen to eurosport, they would have explained all that in the first place.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> ...Alberto did nothing wrong ...


Other than ignore Bruyneel's direction and damage Klöden's podium chances.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

...He didn't *go* anywhere!

One 300m acceleration in the whole stage isn't an attack, and as soon as it was clear that Klo couldn't match it he sat up.

Everyone seems so focussed on Contador; how do we see the Shleck brothers tactics?

Take the worlds best climber all the way up hill, then take him all the way down again, out number him 2 to 1 in a break, let him push you through, never attack, accept a gifted stage win. Racing for minor places?


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

olr1 said:


> ...He didn't *go* anywhere!
> 
> One 300m acceleration in the whole stage isn't an attack, and as soon as it was clear that Klo couldn't match it he sat up.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you didn't actually watch the stage - the Schlecks were animating the entire race. They were attacking relentlessly on the Col de Romme. They splintered the front group, dropping Wiggins, Sastre, and some others, moving up to 2 and 3rd overall. That was a great piece of racing.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Uzzi gets it.......
Make the schecks work ahead of the TT...Check
Ride their wheel.....check
Klodin fried anyway....check.

The only thing contadors or JB's tactics did was increase the possibility that LA & Klodin put bigger time in the schecks tomorrow.

Of course because contador isn't LA he couldn't possibly be doing things right. 

Len


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

olr1 said:


> Racing for minor places?


I'd say the consensus is that minor places are all that is left.


----------



## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

olr1 said:


> ...He didn't *go* anywhere!
> 
> One 300m acceleration in the whole stage isn't an attack, and as soon as it was clear that Klo couldn't match it he sat up.
> 
> ...


So, Conti got jittery and wanted to use his legs instead of his brain. JB set him straight, and he followed wheels. Kloden didn't have the legs to gap the Schlecks. No biggie. It all still worked out with Conti in Yellow.

The Schlecks missed an oppotunity. They could've wore out Conti by ganging up on him. They could've left a gap for him to take up everytime he was on 3rd wheel. Make him work to catch the 1st wheel again. It didn't matter, since he was "gifting" the stage to Frank.


----------



## novagator (Apr 4, 2002)

uzziefly said:


> who think he's an a*hole and a doofus and an idiot and all that.
> 
> The Eurosport interview after the race had him say this:
> 
> ...


+1 I agree with this, can't understand (well, I can  the negative reaction to Contadors move.


----------



## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

So helping the Schlecks get #2 and #3 in the GC was good for Astana then? Even this clairvoyant can't see that deep ;-)

Schleck's tactics(?) were to break everyone and with Alberto's help, they did.


----------



## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

AC attacked to demoralize the Schlecks and let them know Ventoux is his to lose as well. He slowed down because his attacks are typically a strong acceleration followed by a slight slowing and rest, and he would have been alone with the Schleks. I'm sure he wanted Kloden to follow, but he didn't care one way or another. 
I don't believe much that comes from the Astana camp press conferences as they want the racers to think they are strong, but selfish. I would have like to see what would have happened had LA been in Kloden's position. Would AC let him win? That would have been a finish. Schleks, AC, and LA. Liggett would have pissed himself.


----------



## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

jsedlak said:


> Who is talking about this armchair nonsense? Even JB agrees:
> 
> http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/race_recaps/tdfst1709.html


And he went onto saying... " *It’s a bit of a pity that Andreas couldn’t hold on* because we could have been first, second and third on GC but now we are first, fourth and fifth." Regarding a late attack by Lance, Johan continued with, " A rider has to know when he can go and Lance really judged that attack. I know that he had a hard time the last few kilometers, it was a hard stage. I told him on the final of the Colombiere to go away from Wiggins so in the end we could be 1-2-3. But in the end you can’t want it all. *Our purpose is to win the Tour and we got a big step forward today. If we want everything we can end up with nothing and that’s not what we want. Second and third are not a goal. If it happens that’s ok but we don’t go after it. Winning the Tour is the goal*."


We may like it or not, but Contador got the job done.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

It was a ill considered attack at best, as he wasn't going to drop either brother and he was wasting energy he will need tomorrow whn he can put time on them. And he dropped his only teammate. 

But he did the right thing when the attack backfired and sat on. He also did the right thing by being clear with them he wouldn't sprint for 1st. Fortunately he is strong enough that making this stupid mistakes have not hurt him. In the end, he is going to win the Tour by 3 minutes so the rest is basically meaningless. If he were on a lessor team and had to make up 4-5 minutes from the TTT then it would be different. But he's not.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

nice selective editing. Too bad you didn't include the first part of the quote when Bruyneel told him not to attack. Second time in the tour that Contador ignored his DS - both times attacking Kloden. The guy is a punk.

"the attack from Contador at 3km from the top, I had advised Alberto not to go because he didn’t need to go. He didn’t need to go because it was clear that the Schlecks would go full gas to the finish. I told him, ‘You don’t have to attack to win the Tour de France today’.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

He was adding the rest of the quote omitted above....

...and let's not forget that JB might-just-possibly-maybe-perhaps have a slight interest in AC not putting too much time into LA, because he likes the idea of a motoring holiday in France next year?


----------



## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

OK, uzzielfy. I might buy that. It seems weird to me that he would spend energy tryinig to get a teammate a stage win--after all, as many have pointed out his goal is winning and he shouldn't risk his energy level for Kloden's stage win. But that is how you keep a team together--you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

But he attacked hard and fairly suddenly, so that's what made it look like he just decided he'd had enough following Schleck wheels and wanted to stomp on them.

A better approach would be for Kloden to attack and Conti to try and thwart the Schleck chase. But Kloden was perhaps at his limit.

Still seems like a dumb move to me


----------



## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

jsedlak said:


> How do you say no in Spanish?


Shut up! have you ever been in a bike race????


----------



## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

This discussion is epic.


----------



## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Has Kloden said anything about it?

I still maintain it was a stupid move. Almost nobody can follow AC's accelerations so why would Kloden be able to after all the work he has done.

But honestly, we're arguing for no reason. AC is THE man now. He should be given the benefit of the doubt the way Lance was. He did hold up after he realized (or was told) his attack wasn't accomplishing anything.


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

llama31 said:


> A better approach would be for Kloden to attack and Conti to try and thwart the Schleck chase. But Kloden was perhaps at his limit.


i believe this was plan b. from the JB quote posted earlier it sounded like plan A was for them to wait it out, letting LA catch back up, and get 1-2-3 in paris. Contador apparently thought kloden could go, but he couldnt. i agree with JB, that they wanted to get 1-2-3, and could have if the 4 went over the top together, but after contador went it was all to keep yellow. which, at that point, is the right play. blame conti, blame communication, blame whomever, but it was the right play then.

i still dont get the schlecks. they must have been more sapped than what i read.
*imagine if jens had been there today...*


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

turbogrover said:


> So, Conti got jittery and wanted to use his legs instead of his brain. JB set him straight, and he followed wheels. Kloden didn't have the legs to gap the Schlecks. No biggie. It all still worked out with Conti in Yellow.
> 
> The Schlecks missed an oppotunity. They could've wore out Conti by ganging up on him. They could've left a gap for him to take up everytime he was on 3rd wheel. Make him work to catch the 1st wheel again. It didn't matter, since he was "gifting" the stage to Frank.


Not really-- neither was stronger than him, and Frank wasn't any threat on GC (especially due to his poor TT's). The Schlecks were focused on putting time into Wiggins and winning the stage. Mission accomplished.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> nice selective editing. Too bad you didn't include the first part of the quote when Bruyneel told him not to attack. Second time in the tour that Contador ignored his DS - both times attacking Kloden. The guy is a punk.
> 
> "the attack from Contador at 3km from the top, I had advised Alberto not to go because he didn’t need to go. He didn’t need to go because it was clear that the Schlecks would go full gas to the finish. I told him, ‘You don’t have to attack to win the Tour de France today’.


I didn't quote that because I mentioned everything I heard from EuroSport as I mentioned above anyway.

No selective editing at all. 

And, while he may have ignored the DS, he did so with the understanding that Klöden was able to go and that they would ride away together today.

When he saw that didn't happen, you saw that he immediately almost screeched to a stop and just waited as much as he could while remaining in tow.

In any case after that, Klöden was fried already. 

As far as Armstrong goes, it was gonna be too hard to get him to come back because he was already riding very hard and initially, he had to make sure the Garmin boys were cooked as well before he could go so that Wiggins won't have a free wheel to follow. So in this essence, everyone did their job today. 

The Schlecks were definitely deep fried by the end. The biggest loss was Wiggins because he might not even podium now. And, Andreas and Lance still can TT their way back into podium spots. The Ventoux- well, Alberto doesn't need to work at all now over there. They can still try for the 1-2-3 in the end maybe. 

Wiggins has all to fight for. Andy Schleck has one last dig on that stage but might be a little far off after tomorrow. Frank Schleck is all but out. Astana are in good shape now with the yellow pretty secured.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Len J said:


> Uzzi gets it.......
> Make the schecks work ahead of the TT...Check
> Ride their wheel.....check
> Klodin fried anyway....check.
> ...


Of course, because LA is LA, he never does anything right either even if he apologizes!


----------



## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

TmaxR said:


> Other than ignore Bruyneel's direction and damage Klöden's podium chances.


JBs take:

"As a time trial specialist we knew Wiggins was the real danger," said General Manager Johan Bruyneel. "At the moment the Schlecks went Contador and Klöden went so it was fine. We knew the Schlecks would go to the end because they wanted to get rid of Bradley Wiggins. The attack from Contador at 3km from the top, I had advised Alberto not to go because he didn’t need to go. He didn’t need to go because it was clear that the Schlecks would go full gas to the finish. I told him, ‘You don’t have to attack to win the Tour de France today’. It’s a bit of a pity that Andreas couldn’t hold on because we could have been first, second and third on GC but now we are first, fourth and fifth." Regarding a late attack by Lance, Johan continued with, " A rider has to know when he can go and Lance really judged that attack. I know that he had a hard time the last few kilometers, it was a hard stage. I told him on the final of the Colombiere to go away from Wiggins so in the end we could be 1-2-3. But in the end you can’t want it all. *Our purpose is to win the Tour and we got a big step forward today. * If we want everything we can end up with nothing and that’s not what we want. *Second and third are not a goal.* If it happens that’s ok but we don’t go after it. *Winning the Tour is the goal*."


----------



## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

I appreciate your spin on this one, Uzzi. I wouldn't have thought about that up front; but it makes sense.

All in all, I think it played out extremely well for Astana. I know they didn't want the other 2 down that much time in the end; but they've got two stages to make it up. However, they better make it up tomorrow, as I don't see the Schlecks giving up anything come Friday's stage. 

I don't see how Kloden can take that much time out of Andy S; but who knows. His TT might be there. I do think LA will be in 2nd after tomorrow stage; but after Friday? I think it will be a free for all.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you're neglecting a few important pieces:

they were 3km from the summit. The Schleck brothers had pretty much given up hopes of dropping Contador and were riding a steady but not brutal pace. Kloden was doing fine with that pace.

There was no reason to think Contador and Kloden could drop the Schlecks. Besides, even if they could gap them the Schlecks would likely have been able to close it on the descent. 

Kloden popped trying to get back on when Contador attacked. Once that happened it was lights out for him. 

The biggest reason - Contador isolated himself - had he had a flat on the descent and the team car been delayed he could easily have lost the yellow jersey to Andy without a teammate to switch bikes.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> you're neglecting a few important pieces:
> 
> they were 3km from the summit. The Schleck brothers had pretty much given up hopes of dropping Contador and were riding a steady but not brutal pace. Kloden was doing fine with that pace.
> 
> ...


+1 :thumbsup:


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

llama31 said:


> Has Kloden said anything about it?
> 
> I still maintain it was a stupid move. Almost nobody can follow AC's accelerations so why would Kloden be able to after all the work he has done.


Let me explain bicycle racing to you. Kloden only had to hold the Schlecks' wheels. Not AC's. He could not. He was not strong enough. 

Maybe AC should find a better team next year.


----------



## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

I have not watched today's stage but my wife watched it.

When I was home for lunch, she explained exactly how big an idiot a**hole AC is.

The woman is never wrong so there!


----------



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

uzziefly said:


> Oh for God's SAKE. He attacked because it was the BEST thing to do. Why sit there and just wait when you have a teammate that said he could follow you and the plan WAS to attack anyway so that you guys get a 1-2 on the stage?


Since you seem to be the only person who _really _knows pro bike racing (or so you seem to think), why is it when asked, Lance knew nothing about this _planned _attack. You would think the whole team would know about it since they all go to the team meetings together and share the same race radio? When asked he seems to be in the dark about why AC attacked.

His attack cost Astana dearly in the GC today, no matter what your expert opinion is. Why would he need to put extra time in the Andy or Frank since it is known they will lose big time tomorrow? Why waste that energy instead of just riding with them? He had a ton of time on them, what is another minute today going to do as compared to the energy wasted. 

Don't try to come off as the resident expert when your guess is as good as anyone elses. We have all been watching pro racing for a while now, so your insight(speculation) is the same as ours unless you have a radio feed from the Astana car none of us can get. Do you work for them? Didn't think so.


----------



## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

On Sport1.de, a German website, I find an ever so slightly different account of the Contador interview. 

_"Ich habe Andreas gefragt und er hat gesagt 'Los geh, attackiere'. Als die Schlecks zurückkamen, habe ich gestoppt, aber es war zu spät für Andreas", sagte Contador, der die Taktik vorher schon mit Johan Bruyneel abgesprochen habe. Klöden (4:44) ist als bester Deutscher nun Gesamtfünfter._

"I asked Andreas and he said ' Go, attack!'. When the Schlecks came back, I stopped, but it was too late for Andreas", said Contador, who claimed to have discussed this tactic with Bruyneel before (the stage). As the best placed German, Kloeden (4:44) is now 5th on GC.


The nuances may lie in translation from Spanish, but, while he gave his OK, there is no mention of Kloeden attacking with Contador. Rather, it sounds like he was out of gas and did not want to hold Contador back. Either way, the bottom line remains: The yellow jersey did not need more time today, but took it anyway at the expense of a teammate with a shot at the final podium. If Contador struggles on the Ventoux, his best hope will be for Popvych to have a great day. I seriously doubt Kloeden will wait for him.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Beethoven said:


> It looked to me like uzziefly reads it. What I didn't like--at to me that's typical AC--is that he made that gesture of giving the Schlecks the stage at least three times (padding them on the back, talking to them, waving them by, so that the cameras could catch it from every angle. It looked terribly condescending.


Gotta disagree here. The Schlecks were asking him to work - repeatedly - and he kept telling them he wouldn't and pushing them back out front.


----------



## key (Mar 8, 2004)

I agree that he feels bad, but it does show some poor tactical judgment. Look at 04 when LA had Floyd jump to sit on and if he was caught he could respond. AC just had nothing to gain and put his team in a bad position. If he was going to go (and this sound simple) don't get caught...... This was like LA and Heras in 02 when they tried it, and it failed, and LA just kept going. 

I do think AC is fortunate that he can learn from this but to bad that its also at the expense of his teammate.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Spunout said:


> Let me explain bicycle racing to you. Kloden only had to hold the Schlecks' wheels. Not AC's. He could not. He was not strong enough.
> 
> Maybe AC should find a better team next year.


thanks for the offer to explain racing to us - unfortunately, your cat 5 insights don't translate into grand tour strategy very well...


----------



## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

As cyclingnews.com reports, Bruyneel seems more than a little annoyed:
"I told [Contador], 'you don't have to attack today to win the Tour de France.' The difference was already there to Bradley Wiggins, who we were most worried about," said Bruyneel. "It is a bit of pity Andreas could not hang on because I think we could have been first, second and third in the classification."


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

seeborough said:


> Either way, the bottom line remains: The yellow jersey did not need more time today, but took it anyway at the expense of a teammate with a shot at the final podium. If Contador struggles on the Ventoux, his best hope will be for Popvych to have a great day. I seriously doubt Kloeden will wait for him.


This is where all of the "Contador is a jerk" arguments are losing me.

The yellow jersey ALWAYS wants more time when he can get it. Wiggins had the best chance to put time in on the time trial, so pile it on.

Like Bruyneel said, 3 on the podium is a lovely, pie-in-the-sky dream, but the yellow jersey is the priority.

Should we baste Lance for all the times he didn't help Roberto Heras podium with him?


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

We'll see if Kloden helps Conti out Sat.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

dagger said:


> We'll see if Kloden helps Conti out Sat.


Any betting man would pick Kloeden to ride tempo up Ventoux on Saturday for as long as he can, considering that's what the team hired him to do. He will be the last Astana team member to peel off in front of Contador, unless he can hang around till the end of the climb.

I don't expect Lance will be asked to ride tempo, because that's not really his role even now, but it's possible he will sit in on contenders if there's a need and he can't go with a break.


----------



## somdoosh (Jul 21, 2008)

The purpose of the attack was to secure a place for Andreas on the podium; with Lance keeping pace with Wiggins, the goal was to trade some of Lance's gap against Andy for Andreas's against Wiggins. When it seemed like the Schlecks wouldn't be able to follow, attacking made sense: put more time against Wiggins without Lance losing any further seconds to the Schlecks. As it happens, Alberto and Andreas underestimated the Schleck brothers' reserves and overestimated Andreas's own ability, which ended up with Andreas being dropped by the leaders.

Tactically it makes sense: the Schlecks aren't time great time trialers, but Wiggins is, along with Astana's GC contenders. Just because the results of the maneuver weren't everything that was expected doesn't mean it was a bad idea. It was even a mitigated success, in that Armstrong deepened his lead against Wiggins and Klöden leapfrogged him. Whether it was worth the cost, we won't know until Ventoux, maybe Paris.


----------



## Harold Snepsts (Apr 26, 2009)

jptaylorsg said:


> This is where all of the "Contador is a jerk" arguments are losing me.
> 
> The yellow jersey ALWAYS wants more time when he can get it. Wiggins had the best chance to put time in on the time trial, so pile it on.
> 
> ...


I don't remember Lance ever attacking and only having the legs to drop his teammate on a climb. I can't decide if Contador is just a pr*ck or an idiot, because he either intentionally attacked when Kloden was having difficulty knowing he probably didn't have the legs to drop the Schlecks, or he was too dumb to properly gauge how likely he was to open up a gap on anyone other than his teammate.

As for those saying it was a planned attack.

"I told [Contador], 'you don't have to attack today to win the Tour de France.' The difference was already there to Bradley Wiggins, who we were most worried about," said Bruyneel. "It is a bit of pity Andreas could not hang on because I think we could have been first, second and third in the classification."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-distances-his-teammates-with-controversial-attack


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

I recomend all to go read Levi's (Levi is a pro racer and teamate)"in race" twits and see his perspectives


----------



## Wborgers (Oct 6, 2008)

Uzzie,
You are nieve if you think his actions ignoring his DS is OK- he is a very talented punk


----------



## Harold Snepsts (Apr 26, 2009)

somdoosh said:


> The purpose of the attack was to secure a place for Andreas on the podium; with Lance keeping pace with Wiggins, the goal was to trade some of Lance's gap against Andy for Andreas's against Wiggins. When it seemed like the Schlecks wouldn't be able to follow, attacking made sense: put more time against Wiggins without Lance losing any further seconds to the Schlecks. As it happens, Alberto and Andreas underestimated the Schleck brothers' reserves and overestimated Andreas's own ability, which ended up with Andreas being dropped by the leaders.
> 
> *Tactically it makes sense: the Schlecks aren't time great time trialers, but Wiggins is, along with Astana's GC contenders.* Just because the results of the maneuver weren't everything that was expected doesn't mean it was a bad idea. It was even a mitigated success, in that Armstrong deepened his lead against Wiggins and Klöden leapfrogged him. Whether it was worth the cost, we won't know until Ventoux, maybe Paris.


What Contador did, which was a sudden burst in speed to try and drop the Schlecks (presumably), doesn't make sense if he's wanting to put time into Wiggins, who was well down the course.

To put more time into Wiggins, all he had to do was keep riding a hard fast tempo and put time into him that way. And he probably had good information on where Wiggins was and what difficulty he was in considering LA was sitting on his wheel.


----------



## C6Rider (Nov 15, 2008)

*Lance vs Alberto*

If you ask me, it seems that the majority of the posters on this site feel that Alberto is always wrong, and Lance can do no wrong. I think when you compare their individual abilities and chances to win this race, Alberto's moves make sense. Lance is not the same racer as many choose to remember.


----------



## key (Mar 8, 2004)

I think the general tone is that his tactics today didn't help him or his team. He's clearly the strongest rider in the race, Period. But today what he did didn't help him and didn't help his team, Period. If he had rode off to the finish alone I would say it was brilliant, but that's not the case. I do think that he will win this tour and he's probably also learning alot about the tactic's in the race that will further help him in the future.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

The only thing wrong with Contador's attack is he didn't keep going. He should have left all these fools and settled this with panache.

I understand all these 'protect this, protect that' tactics. He was clearly held back by his broken team mate and his calculating boss. But I'd rather see a leader that will lead and let it all hang out!!! If he was allowed to just take off.... that would have been legend.

At least he's rested for tomorrow.

fc


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

key said:


> I think the general tone is that his tactics today didn't help him or his team. He's clearly the strongest rider in the race, Period. But today what he did didn't help him and didn't help his team, Period. If he had rode off to the finish alone I would say it was brilliant, but that's not the case. I do think that he will win this tour and he's probably also learning alot about the tactic's in the race that will further help him in the future.


+1 :thumbsup:


----------



## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

francois said:


> The only thing wrong with Contador's attack is he didn't keep going. He should have left all these fools and settled this with panache.
> 
> I understand all these 'protect this, protect that' tactics. He was clearly held back by his broken team mate and his calculating boss. But I'd rather see a leader that will lead and let it all hang out!!! If he was allowed to just take off.... that would have been legend.


Exactly. Since when has a TdF GC leader in the closing stages been asked to be responsible for where his team mates finish? Any other time and place involving different riders, and we'd have everyone praising Contador for being a daring and impulsive frontrunner. Instead, we have the hubris of Boss Hog trying to solidify his own legend from "the bench" by trying to position multiple riders on the final GC podium. The nickname "Hog" suits him just fine in this storyline, greedy as he is.


----------



## Time2ride (Apr 12, 2009)

*Geez!*

By the time you guys sort this out the bloody Tour will be over.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

francois said:


> The only thing wrong with Contador's attack is he didn't keep going. He should have left all these fools and settled this with panache.
> 
> I understand all these 'protect this, protect that' tactics. He was clearly held back by his broken team mate and his calculating boss. But I'd rather see a leader that will lead and let it all hang out!!! If he was allowed to just take off.... that would have been legend.
> 
> ...


Sure, if he just rode away like he did to Verbier, that would have been cool. But all his move achieved was to put Klöden "in a spot of bother".
As I like to say, "Do it, or don't."


----------



## kretzel (Aug 1, 2007)

Remember when Lance announced his return? 

"No Tour, just race for cancer support". 

Then..."Maybe Tour, just to go". 

Then..."We'll see who the leader is on the road." 

Well, we're finding out on the road who the leader is. Lance picked this fight, not Alberto. 

People forget that Alberto signed a contract to be a team leader, not to do battle with his own mega-star teammate. IMO he's well within his rights to ride whatever race he wants and has the legs for.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_Exactly. Since when has a TdF GC leader in the closing stages been asked to be responsible for where his team mates finish? Any other time and place involving different riders, and we'd have everyone praising Contador for being a daring and impulsive frontrunner. Instead, we have the hubris of Boss Hog trying to solidify his own legend from "the bench" by trying to position multiple riders on the final GC podium. The nickname "Hog" suits him just fine in this storyline, greedy as he is._

Hits the spot for me; if old LA had ridden like AC, he would have been stamping his authority on the race, setting his rivals up for dectruction in the TT and on the Ventoux.
If Indurain had ridden, he would be queitly demonstrating to the world his authority.
If Hinault had, it would be the Badger emerging from his lair.

Contador is the man of the moment, he is the team leader, not Bruyneel, not Armstrong, not Kloeden, and he can ride as he sees fit.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Time2ride said:


> By the time you guys sort this out the bloody Tour will be over.


I'll be glad to criticize Alberto's tactics on tomorrow's stage.


----------



## Harold Snepsts (Apr 26, 2009)

jsedlak said:


> But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....
> 
> If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.
> 
> ...


Exactly this.

People were acting as if this attack was to put time into Wiggins. That only makes sense if Wiggins is on his wheel. Otherwise the way he puts time into him is with fast tempo. Not sudden bursts.

It was a boneheaded and unnecessary move. He isolated himself on a climb, looked like a chump, and screwed over his team's chances of all finishing on the podium.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

TmaxR said:


> Sure, if he just rode away like he did to Verbier, that would have been cool. But all his move achieved was to put Klöden "in a spot of bother".


His boss shackled him. And he had to wait for Kloden who was just dead weight to that lead group anyway.

But he sent a stronggg statement to the Schlecks and ended those shenanigans.

Contador is a killer and I like him more now. My buddy Levi should learn a little bit from him.

He should have been allowed to fly.

fc


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Harold Snepsts said:


> What Contador did, which was a sudden burst in speed to try and drop the Schlecks (presumably), doesn't make sense if he's wanting to put time into Wiggins, who was well down the course.
> 
> To put more time into Wiggins, all he had to do was keep riding a hard fast tempo and put time into him that way. And he probably had good information on where Wiggins was and what difficulty he was in considering LA was sitting on his wheel.


Why put time in Wiggins when you can put in time in Wiggins and Schlecks and win the stage?

My view is that Kloden was going to pop sooner or later. He was redlining and wasn't going to unhitch no matter what, pretty soon anyways. AC probably regretted his surge (especially since it didn't work), but I refuse to believe he dropped Kloden deliberately, that conspiracy theory makes no sense to me.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

jptaylorsg said:


> This is where all of the "Contador is a jerk" arguments are losing me.
> 
> *The yellow jersey ALWAYS wants more time when he can get it.* Wiggins had the best chance to put time in on the time trial, so pile it on.
> 
> ...


This is a very naive understanding of how racing works. You need time only on your biggest rivals. With the Schleck brothers so far down and their TT abilities up in the air, Wiggins is the big rival. It is important for Contador to gain time on Wiggins and conserve energy at the same time.

If Contador really wanted a lot of time on every stage he would attack as much as possible. This, of course, would drain him of crucial energy and eventually he would suffer on a climb and lose whatever gains he made previously. This is why, tactically, today's attack was a completely bad move. He was making important distance on Wiggins while conserving energy by riding on the Schlecks' wheels. It was smart and calculated which is how you really win the yellow jersey in Paris.

It is similar in motorsports where the cliche is "to get the car to run just fast enough that as you cross the finish line on the last lap it falls apart."

If you want proof of this, look at how Bruyneel and his team has won the tours. They are won by calculated efforts and then policing the pelaton to preserve the time gaps.


----------



## reydin (Jun 2, 2009)

francois said:


> His boss shackled him. And he had to wait for Kloden who was just dead weight to that lead group anyway.
> 
> But he sent a stronggg statement to the Schlecks and ended those shenanigans.
> 
> ...


 All I can say is WOW.


----------



## Patty (Feb 12, 2006)

*Yes, something else*



uzziefly said:


> who think he's an a*hole and a doofus and an idiot and all that.
> 
> The Eurosport interview after the race had him say this:
> 
> ...


Sounds like a stupid plan. Why would Contador and Kloden pass up the chance to have the Schlecks tow them all the way to the line? It was up to the Schlecks to set the pace and put time into Wiggins. This was either a stupid strategy (which sounds awfully out of character for Johan), or Contador is making stuff up to save face. 
Johan Bruyneel was interviewed right after thr ace and he says he told them it wasn't a good move, told them they didn't have to attack, told them they were already in a perfect position with the Schlecks towing them up. I viewed the interview on Versus TV.com. He totally says Alberto's move was stupid and NOT the plan. Listening to a DS who has guided one rider to 7 Tour wins and another kid to three Grand Tour wins is called "Team Tactics". Wanting it all and getting nothing is called being a bonehead rider with more ability than brains.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

55x11 said:


> My view is that Kloden was going to pop sooner or later.


Maybe, but the attack made it sooner, adding to his time loss.


55x11 said:


> ...but I refuse to believe he dropped Kloden deliberately...


I think few, if any, here think he _*wanted*_ to drop Klöden, just that it was a bone-headed move.


----------



## Patty (Feb 12, 2006)

Len J said:


> Uzzi gets it.......
> Make the schecks work ahead of the TT...Check
> Ride their wheel.....check
> Klodin fried anyway....check.
> ...


There's one little problem with your statement. Contador and JB's tactics opposed eachother. JB says so himself.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Heres a question for the RBR veterans. Shouldnt have Armstrong gone with AC and the Schlecks instead of marking Wiggins? Imho he should have gone with AC and the Schlecks. As you can see he more than had enough to keep up after the way he performed in dropping Wiggins and his decent. 

If he had gone with the schlecks and AC Wiggins would have dropped off anyway as he nor VDV could even handle the slower pace they were going. LA would have kept up with AC and the Schlecks imho. He wouldnt have had to waste as much energy by himself on that break from Wiggins and trying to make up time in the down hill. He would just be down by 1:37 instead of 3:55. Am I flawed in this thinking?


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Patty said:


> Sounds like a stupid plan. Why would Contador and Kloden pass up the chance to have the Schlecks tow them all the way to the line? It was up to the Schlecks to set the pace and put time into Wiggins. This was either a stupid strategy (which sounds awfully out of character for Johan), or Contador is making stuff up to save face.
> Johan Bruyneel was interviewed right after thr ace and he says he told them it wasn't a good move, told them they didn't have to attack, told them they were already in a perfect position with the Schlecks towing them up. I viewed the interview on Versus TV.com. He totally says Alberto's move was stupid and NOT the plan. Listening to a DS who has guided one rider to 7 Tour wins and another kid to three Grand Tour wins is called "Team Tactics". Wanting it all and getting nothing is called being a bonehead rider with more ability than brains.


I tend to agree with this. I just dont know why AC did what he did. It was not from the DS. It was yet another move by AC that the DS didnt approve of. Maybe he is afraid of LA being that close with the ITT tommorow. LA is hardly fried after seeing him perform today and especially yesterday and maybe AC still sees him as a threat and doesnt trust him? Pure speculation on my part as I dont see the logic in costing the Team a possible 1-2-3 podium. Imho it wasnt a team move at all. Everyone else played there part but AC made sure LA cant hurt his chances. Remember yesterday he dropped LA or at least he thought so. Why give LA the opportunity to come back today with victory just a few days away.


----------



## Time2ride (Apr 12, 2009)

Anybody want AC's bike...WOW! Or is it not so WOW?


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Snakebitten said:


> Heres a question for the RBR veterans. Shouldnt have Armstrong gone with AC and the Schlecks instead of marking Wiggins? Imho he should have gone with AC and the Schlecks. As you can see he more than had enough to keep up after the way he performed in dropping Wiggins and his decent.
> 
> If he had gone with the schlecks and AC Wiggins would have dropped off anyway as he nor VDV could even handle the slower pace they were going. LA would have kept up with AC and the Schlecks imho. He wouldnt have had to waste as much energy by himself on that break from Wiggins and trying to make up time in the down hill. He would just be down by 1:37 instead of 3:55. Am I flawed in this thinking?


He either missed the move or didn't have the legs at the moment to match the acceleration. I think he said as much after the stage. One's ability to accelerate can wax and wane throughout the race depending on a number of circumstances.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Snakebitten said:


> Heres a question for the RBR veterans. Shouldnt have Armstrong gone with AC and the Schlecks instead of marking Wiggins? Imho he should have gone with AC and the Schlecks. As you can see he more than had enough to keep up after the way he performed in dropping Wiggins and his decent.
> 
> If he had gone with the schlecks and AC Wiggins would have dropped off anyway as he nor VDV could even handle the slower pace they were going. LA would have kept up with AC and the Schlecks imho. He wouldnt have had to waste as much energy by himself on that break from Wiggins and trying to make up time in the down hill. He would just be down by 1:37 instead of 3:55. Am I flawed in this thinking?


Because he was tired.

He didn't go with Contador because his legs said no.

It is reallly unfortunate since he lost so much time the top 3.

fc


----------



## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

kretzel said:


> Remember when Lance announced his return?
> 
> "No Tour, just race for cancer support".
> 
> ...




Amen. Thank you for reminding us who is most responsible for the dysfunctional Astana team dynamics. Contador has been lied to and played with since Armstrong's return...can't blame him one bit for believing in conspiracy theories on Bruyneel's race tactics.


----------



## Patty (Feb 12, 2006)

*stupid is as stupid does*



Snakebitten said:


> I tend to agree with this. I just dont know why AC did what he did. It was not from the DS. It was yet another move by AC that the DS didnt approve of. Maybe he is afraid of LA being that close with the ITT tommorow. LA is hardly fried after seeing him perform today and especially yesterday and maybe AC still sees him as a threat and doesnt trust him? Pure speculation on my part as I dont see the logic in costing the Team a possible 1-2-3 podium. Imho it wasnt a team move at all. Everyone else played there part but AC made sure LA cant hurt his chances. Remember yesterday he dropped LA or at least he thought so. Why give LA the opportunity to come back today with victory just a few days away.


I don't think AC's move had anything to do with Lance. It had to do with AC wanting to win the stage, thinking he could rip away from the Schlecks and Kloden could follow the Schlecks. 
Another reason why it looks like AC is making up a story to cover his butt is because it doesn't make sense for an experienced rider like Kloden to say, "Yeah, I can follow you and rip away from the Schlecks", and then he doesn't even try, much less succeed. The move appeared to catch him by surprise. 
Truth be told, I have been rooting and defending Alberto. But this bonehead move is just too obvious for all but the blind to see as bonehead.


----------



## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

francois said:


> His boss shackled him. And he had to wait for Kloden who was just dead weight to that lead group anyway.
> 
> But he sent a stronggg statement to the Schlecks and ended those shenanigans.
> 
> ...


I'm coming around to this view. Despite what JB says, I think he is more interested in a 1,2,3 Astana finish (and I think he would prefer LA in #1), then ensuring AC wins. I think there is a level of mistrust on AC's part, which I understand under the circumstances. LA certainly brooked no interference with his goals of winning all those TDFs. He had a great team around him and never cared if his teammates finished 2nd, 3rd or 30th. He was the strongest, and everyone knew it.

I admire LA a lot. He is riding wonderfully, especially given the years out of racing and the broken collarbone (which I tend to think are more important than his age). But, I want to see AC fly up Ventoux at a pace only A. Schleck can match, the two greatest climbers in the world going head to head, dropping everyone else, leaving all of them to their fates, scatterred down that mythical climb.


----------



## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

francois said:


> His boss shackled him. And he had to wait for Kloden who was just dead weight to that lead group anyway.
> 
> But he sent a stronggg statement to the Schlecks and ended those shenanigans.
> 
> ...


The only message he sent the Schlecks was that he could ride with them. He made the choice to attack teammate, usually a no no, but he did it. He should have finished what he started and dropped the brothers. How the move looks now is that he got greedy and attacked a teammate to drop him. In reality, he made a move that wasn't needed. They were already dropping Wiggins, a rider that could challenge in the TT tomorrow. There just wasn't a tactical reason with so little mountain left to make that stamp of authority unless he also viewed AK as a threat over the next few days (doubt it), or he really does not respect the team or JB (maybe), or he is feeling that his strength going away and expects a bad day to come (doubt it), or he is proving that he is immature and selfish (maybe)... I have and will criticize a move like this no matter who made it, LA included.


----------



## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

Snakebitten said:


> Heres a question for the RBR veterans. Shouldnt have Armstrong gone with AC and the Schlecks instead of marking Wiggins? Imho he should have gone with AC and the Schlecks. As you can see he more than had enough to keep up after the way he performed in dropping Wiggins and his decent.
> 
> If he had gone with the schlecks and AC Wiggins would have dropped off anyway as he nor VDV could even handle the slower pace they were going. LA would have kept up with AC and the Schlecks imho. He wouldnt have had to waste as much energy by himself on that break from Wiggins and trying to make up time in the down hill. He would just be down by 1:37 instead of 3:55. Am I flawed in this thinking?


wasn't a choice, he missed the move. Period.


----------



## Patty (Feb 12, 2006)

*Johan's words Uzzie*

I'll quote Johan's exact words in his post race interview.

"I was happy until four kilometer from the top of the Columbier. That was a really perfect situation for us because we knew the Schlecks would go on the Col de Rom to try to get rid of Wiggins. That's also what we wanted....we were happy with that. For us it was fine. We knew that the two Schlecks would go to the finish. 
That attack from Contador...*I had advised NOT TO GO* because he didn't need to go. He didn't need to attack because it was clear that the two Schleck brother would go full gas to the finish. *I told him, I said, "YOU DON'T HAVE TO ATTACK TO WIN THE TOUR DE FRANCE TODAY.* I think we could have been first, second and third on GC today, and now we are first, fourth, and fifth. 
I said to Alberto and Andreas, "Just stay on the wheel of the Schlecks. At the end you can't want it all. Our purpose is to win the Tour. If we want everything, we can end up with nothing."


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

barry1021 said:


> wasn't a choice, he missed the move. Period.



Gotha. Sounds like what happened to AC on that break away in the first week.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Patty said:


> There's one little problem with your statement. Contador and JB's tactics opposed eachother. JB says so himself.


Notice I said Contoror OR JB's strategy.

Otherwise I assume you agree?

len


----------



## Patty (Feb 12, 2006)

Len J said:


> Notice I said Contoror OR JB's strategy.
> 
> Otherwise I assume you agree?
> 
> len


I don't quite agree that Uzzie gets it. 
If Contador doesn't attack, the Schlecks STILL have to work to put time into Wiggins. Once they had gotten rid of Wiggins, they only wanted to gain time. They knew Contador has the legs to follow any hard, sudden attack, so there's no use in doing that. Just keep a steady hard, sustainable pace. This was a pace that Kloden had been, and could still follow. He only had trouble following hard, sudden attacks, the EXACT same type of attack Contador put in. 
What was Contador going to gain? He spends energy for a stage win, when he could be sucking the Schleck's wheels saving himself for Ventoux and the time trial.
I don't agree with your statement, "The only thing contadors or JB's tactics did was increase the possibility that LA & Klodin put bigger time in the schecks tomorrow."

Contador's attack *guaranteed that Kloden MUST* put time into the Schlecks tomorrow. It's a simple before and after. 
Before-Kloden 0:10 ahead of Andy and 1:08 ahead of Frank
After -Kloden 2:18 BEHIND Andy and 1:19 BEHIND Frank
It's possible the Schlecks are tired, but I'm sure Johan wouldn't execute a guaranteed time loss in hopes a _possible_ time gain.
Some may say Kloden was fried and would have lost anyways. Well he was keeping up with the steady pace fine until Contador's attack. And again, Frank and Andy were just going to keep up the two-man time trial to gain time on Wiggins, so we have no reason to believe Kloden wouldn't have been able to continue sucking wheels.


----------



## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

Patty said:


> I don't think AC's move had anything to do with Lance. It had to do with AC wanting to win the stage, thinking he could rip away from the Schlecks and Kloden could follow the Schlecks.
> Another reason why it looks like AC is making up a story to cover his butt is because it doesn't make sense for an experienced rider like Kloden to say, "Yeah, I can follow you and rip away from the Schlecks", and then he doesn't even try, much less succeed. The move appeared to catch him by surprise.
> Truth be told, I have been rooting and defending Alberto. But this bonehead move is just too obvious for all but the blind to see as bonehead.


Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. If I were a three time grand tour winner, leader of my team, entering my prime, who couldn't defend my title because the team was banned the following year, and Lance came out of retirement and joined my team "to bring more attention to cancer" and took over the team, I would say eff you too. I don't dislike Lance, but the facts as I see it, is Lance should have become a domestique in the Pyrennees when AC blew them all away. If AC is pissed off riding for himself, I don't blame him one bit. This glorification of Lance as a team player is totally overplayed on VS and on this board. Yes it was a great move by him to recover but he missed the initial move. AC is by far the strongest rider in the Tour, he has earned the victory and he deserves a team that will support him as the champion he is, and I hope he gets it next year. He could win ten grand tours by the time he is thru.


----------



## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

oarsman said:


> I'm coming around to this view. Despite what JB says, I think he is more interested in a 1,2,3 Astana finish (and I think he would prefer LA in #1), then ensuring AC wins. I think there is a level of mistrust on AC's part, which I understand under the circumstances. LA certainly brooked no interference with his goals of winning all those TDFs. He had a great team around him and never cared if his teammates finished 2nd, 3rd or 30th. He was the strongest, and everyone knew it.
> 
> I admire LA a lot. He is riding wonderfully, especially given the years out of racing and the broken collarbone (which I tend to think are more important than his age). But, I want to see AC fly up Ventoux at a pace only A. Schleck can match, the two greatest climbers in the world going head to head, dropping everyone else, leaving all of them to their fates, scatterred down that mythical climb.


Totally agree with this. Not sure why JB is pushing for the 3 on the podium unless he's just close with Lance or Trek wants him up there and thats JB's future sponsor or LA is his future boss. AC knows that his team would turn on him if LA got up front so I say take the time you can get. Seriously how many times did you ever see LA wait for a teammate on Discovery, would he wait for AC? Discovery was the dream team, right? Why didnt they go for 1,2,3 back then instead of LA pushing his time out further? One last thought and I dont see this pointed out but if it was so important to keep Kloden attached then why did LA blaze right by him today instead of helping him out?


----------



## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

penn_rider said:


> The only message he sent the Schlecks was that he could ride with them. He made the choice to attack teammate, usually a no no, but he did it. He should have finished what he started and dropped the brothers. How the move looks now is that he got greedy and attacked a teammate to drop him. In reality, he made a move that wasn't needed. They were already dropping Wiggins, a rider that could challenge in the TT tomorrow. There just wasn't a tactical reason with so little mountain left to make that stamp of authority unless he also viewed AK as a threat over the next few days (doubt it), or he really does not respect the team or JB (maybe), or he is feeling that his strength going away and expects a bad day to come (doubt it), or he is proving that he is immature and selfish (maybe)... I have and will criticize a move like this no matter who made it, LA included.


Did LA not "attack" his discovery teammates on every climb he was ever on?


----------



## nsw2516 (Jul 21, 2009)

Interesting takes for what looked to be an obvious tactical error....no great harm done...that said, the ability to gauge another rider's strength is a talent that Mr Armstrong is a master of, whilst Contador is a mere apprenctice...


----------



## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

barry1021 said:


> Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. If I were a three time grand tour winner, leader of my team, entering my prime, who couldn't defend my title because the team was banned the following year, and Lance came out of retirement and joined my team "to bring more attention to cancer" and took over the team, I would say eff you too. I don't dislike Lance, but the facts as I see it, is Lance should have become a domestique in the Pyrennees when AC blew them all away. If AC is pissed off riding for himself, I don't blame him one bit. This glorification of Lance as a team player is totally overplayed on VS and on this board. Yes it was a great move by him to recover but he missed the initial move. AC is by far the strongest rider in the Tour, he has earned the victory and he deserves a team that will support him as the champion he is, and I hope he gets it next year. He could win ten grand tours by the time he is thru.



This totally makes sense. As far as I am concerned, AC has been an outsider on his own team ever since LA returned. I am willing to bet that the team environment was one of distrust and uncertainty as soon as Lance joined and that Lance and his butt buddy JB are the cause of it all. Under these circumstances, how can anyone blame AC for any of his actions? He is the best rider in the world hands down, but he can't trust his teamates or his coach because, among other reasons, they never intended to work for him.

What really confuses me is why did Lance return to Astana? It was just flat out stupid. He should have gone to a team as its clear leader. As a result of Lance joining Astana, I believe AC got punked and dissed by his own team.


----------



## doah (Sep 25, 2005)

What a great race today. I enjoyed every minute of it.


----------



## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

I have to say I somewhat agree with Barry1021 here. Alberto is pretty much universally regarded as the team leader, the one to beat in this years tour after missing it last year, and then, HAHA! The previous most dominant winner of 7 TdF comes screeching out of retirement and, worse yet, lands on YOUR team. Yikes! You really can't blame him for being just a little insecure.


----------



## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

gh1 said:


> Did LA not "attack" his discovery teammates on every climb he was ever on?


Hmmm... not really. Instead, he let them burn themselves out pacing him up the hill until the only one left was Armstrong and whomever else survived. If Astana was run like Discovery, Kloden and Armstrong would set the fiendish pace, with Contador tucked in behind, until each one in turned peeled off to survive the rest of the climb the best he could, leaving Contador to fight it out with A. Schleck or whomever else was still riding.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

gh1 said:


> Totally agree with this. Not sure why JB is pushing for the 3 on the podium unless he's just close with Lance or Trek wants him up there and thats JB's future sponsor or LA is his future boss. AC knows that his team would turn on him if LA got up front so I say take the time you can get. Seriously how many times did you ever see LA wait for a teammate on Discovery, would he wait for AC? Discovery was the dream team, right? Why didnt they go for 1,2,3 back then instead of LA pushing his time out further? *One last thought and I dont see this pointed out but if it was so important to keep Kloden attached then why did LA blaze right by him today instead of helping him out?*



I think this was the tactic that was to be followed when the Schlecks, AC and Kloden were together. Once AC decided on his own to change team protocol that changed the equation. Kloden was 4th at this point so he would have been in third while LA would be 2nd adn AC 1st if AC stuck to the team plan. Since he didnt, LA obviously is the 2nd threat on Astana so naturally since AC changed the tactics LA cant worry about Kloden since he pretty much got dropped out of any chance of staying 4th much less 3rd. Dont blame LA for that. Wasnt the best for the team but was the best for AC. Im getting used to his MO now whether its justified or not. He guaranteed his victory today baring any unfortunate incidences imho.

BTW did the Discovery team have this many GC threats as Astana? Cant judge that team to this one. If you are the DS and you can engineer a 1-2-3 finish for your team why would you not at least try when you have a team that can?


----------



## nsw2516 (Jul 21, 2009)

Interesting takes for what looked to be an obvious tactical error....no great harm done...that said, the ability to gauge another rider's strength is a talent that Mr Armstrong is a master of, whilst Contador is a mere apprenctice...


----------



## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

Snakebitten said:


> .... He guaranteed his victory today baring any unfortunate incidences imho.


Which is presumably the most important thing, both for Contador and Astana


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

karatemom said:


> I have to say I somewhat agree with Barry1021 here. Alberto is pretty much universally regarded as the team leader, the one to beat in this years tour after missing it last year, and then, HAHA! The previous most dominant winner of 7 TdF comes screeching out of retirement and, worse yet, lands on YOUR team. Yikes! You really can't blame him for being just a little insecure.


And then Bruyneel has basically sold Contador out to the press, saying he is not following orders, etc. Praise in public, criticize in private makes more sense to me. It only makes sense to me if Bruyneel is trying to make everyone _but_ Contador happy.


----------



## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*Contador=young Lance*

It was the kind of move Lance would have made..........before he got had the benefit of a master tactician like Johan Bruyneel. Contador has this benefit, but it seems like he thinks he knows better than the man who's guided four different riders to eleven grand tour victories. 

Kinda OT, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Contador riding for another team. He can't stick with Astana due to the risk of the team not being invited to the Tour. But I don't see him working with Johan and Armstrong for another season. They have a plan, and it doesn't include riders who don't follow the plan. no matter what their abilities are.
The new Bruyneel team might offer Contador a contract, but they won't exactly break the bank to outbid everyone else.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Patty said:


> I don't quite agree that Uzzie gets it.
> If Contador doesn't attack, the Schlecks STILL have to work to put time into Wiggins. Once they had gotten rid of Wiggins, they only wanted to gain time. They knew Contador has the legs to follow any hard, sudden attack, so there's no use in doing that. Just keep a steady hard, sustainable pace. This was a pace that Kloden had been, and could still follow. He only had trouble following hard, sudden attacks, the EXACT same type of attack Contador put in.
> What was Contador going to gain? He spends energy for a stage win, when he could be sucking the Schleck's wheels saving himself for Ventoux and the time trial.
> I don't agree with your statement, "The only thing contadors or JB's tactics did was increase the possibility that LA & Klodin put bigger time in the schecks tomorrow."
> ...


Klodin was toast....he showed that the remainder of that stage. He would have lost time no matter what happened. He lost 
time on the descent fer christ sake.

And what Conti did once he realized that Klodin coulnd't follow did nothing but weaken the schecks..........they were riding flat out & he was doing nothing.

Johan set the stage for what happened today by allowing a weaker LA to erode Conti's team leadership position. 

Len


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

barry1021 said:


> Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. If I were a three time grand tour winner, leader of my team, entering my prime, who couldn't defend my title because the team was banned the following year, and Lance came out of retirement and joined my team "to bring more attention to cancer" and took over the team, I would say eff you too. I don't dislike Lance, but the facts as I see it, is Lance should have become a domestique in the Pyrennees when AC blew them all away. If AC is pissed off riding for himself, I don't blame him one bit. This glorification of Lance as a team player is totally overplayed on VS and on this board. Yes it was a great move by him to recover but he missed the initial move. AC is by far the strongest rider in the Tour, he has earned the victory and he deserves a team that will support him as the champion he is, and I hope he gets it next year. He could win ten grand tours by the time he is thru.


+1,000,000 

If you had any doubt as to who AC should be loyal to, just listen to JB throw him under the bus after the stage.............I wouldn't be loyal to that slug.

I think what AC did was very tactically aware....aware of his lack of position on his own team and lack of support by his own DS. No one is going to take care of Conti but conti.

Len


----------



## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Jesse D Smith said:


> The new Bruyneel team might offer Contador a contract, but they won't exactly break the bank to outbid everyone else.


No one needs to offer Contador anything considering he's already under contract for next year. Whether another team chooses to offer to the contract holder to buy out his current contract is another matter.


----------



## lastchild (Jul 4, 2009)

jsedlak said:


> But why was the attack necessary? They were cruising away from everyone....
> 
> If the Schlecks attacked hard, Contador would have followed and Kloden would have cracked. Same result, but Contador doesn't look like a butthead and saves energy.
> 
> ...


Amen!
Totally _unnecessary _ attack on Contador's part. Silly and juvenile and pointless.
Attack your own teammate?
I sure hope AC doesn't need Kloden on Saturday...


----------



## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Snakebitten said:


> I think this was the tactic that was to be followed when the Schlecks, AC and Kloden were together. Once AC decided on his own to change team protocol that changed the equation. Kloden was 4th at this point so he would have been in third while LA would be 2nd adn AC 1st if AC stuck to the team plan. Since he didnt, LA obviously is the 2nd threat on Astana so naturally since AC changed the tactics LA cant worry about Kloden since he pretty much got dropped out of any chance of staying 4th much less 3rd. Dont blame LA for that. Wasnt the best for the team but was the best for AC. Im getting used to his MO now whether its justified or not. He guaranteed his victory today baring any unfortunate incidences imho.
> 
> BTW did the Discovery team have this many GC threats as Astana? Cant judge that team to this one. If you are the DS and you can engineer a 1-2-3 finish for your team why would you not at least try when you have a team that can?


Well I guess it boils down to george hincapie considers lances wins as part his, as well he should. Shouldnt that be enough for la since he said hes a "super domestic" and "once we see who is strongest on the road I will support him".......and the other thing I see is when LA attacked and pulled Wiggins(not for long I will admit) and pulled some with Nibali who was LA riding for, himself or the team leader?


----------



## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

A lot of who said and what was said here.

Here is my take as a guy who has watched TDF since 70's. I was little confused as why Conti attacked (half as one at that) today. Did he really think that Kloden could match his acceleration and drop Schleck brothers and join Conty?? I Think not. He could just let Schleck brothers do all the work and lead out the sprint for Kloden. That would've been the best chance for Kloden for winning the stage. 
All I know is this. If you have wearing the yellow jersey and you are with 2 opponents who are much worse time trialists than you are and you have time in your hand, you don't attack. Simple is that.
As for Lance not going when Frank went.... I think he was tired and rather marking Wiggins who was 9 seconds behind him.
My guess is LA, Kloden and Wiggins will be back to 2nd, 3rd and 4th GC after tomorrow with another shake up taking place on Saturday.....

Turning out to be an interesting tour after all (although it's only for the podium spots)


----------



## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Circlip said:


> No one needs to offer Contador anything considering he's already under contract for next year. Whether another team chooses to offer to the contract holder to buy out his current contract is another matter.


My bad. I forgot he's contracted through 2010. But I suspect if they won't fight too hard if they another team negotiates and they can put the money into other resources.


----------



## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Time2ride said:


> By the time you guys sort this out the bloody Tour will be over.


Nothing to sort out. Contador is a bonehead who does his own thing, team be damned. I hope he falls during the TT or has a flat during one of the remaining stages.


----------



## grrlyrida (Aug 3, 2006)

Len J said:


> Klodin was toast....he showed that the remainder of that stage. He would have lost time no matter what happened. He lost
> time on the descent fer christ sake.
> 
> And what Conti did once he realized that Klodin coulnd't follow did nothing but weaken the schecks..........they were riding flat out & he was doing nothing.
> ...


Thanks Len for saying that. Lance tweeting questioning AC tactics and Johan backing LA as usual just makes me tired of all the drama. There's a primadonna on the team and it isn't AC.

I so wanted Wiggo to take second but glad Andy's there too. I'm glad LA is down to 4th and hopes he stays there. ABL Anyone but Lance


----------



## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

ABL. Amen to that!


----------



## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

wipeout said:


> Nothing to sort out. Contador is a bonehead who does his own thing, team be damned. I hope he falls during the TT or has a flat during one of the remaining stages.


That's the ridiculous part of this whole scenario. Any other team and DS would be estatic with Contador's performance, putting himself in the pole position to win the TdF. For a sponsor that's pure gold. Yet for LA and the Hog that doesn't seem to be good enough, and Contador is expected by them not only to win the GC (a momenous feat in itself) but also to babysit the lesser riders on the team, when on any traditional team it would be their job to support him instead.

Remember when Columbia blew their chance at both green and yellow jerseys by getting greedy and trying to engineer themselves into both at the same time? The Hog's attempts to place multiple riders on the podium is the same type of greed. At least Contador has some common sense to keep himself focused in winning the TdF, and damn right that the placings of the other riders should be considered entirely disposable in the pursuit of this goal.


----------



## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

Len J said:


> Klodin was toast....he showed that the remainder of that stage. He would have lost time no matter what happened. He lost
> time on the descent fer christ sake.
> 
> And what Conti did once he realized that Klodin coulnd't follow did nothing but weaken the schecks..........they were riding flat out & he was doing nothing.
> ...


To say that "he would have lost time no matter what happened" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? He appeared to be doing just fine until the Contador attack. He also soloed much of the descent while the Schlecks worked together. Do you think he would have been dropped by the Schlecks and Conti on the descent had he stayed with them to the top of the climb?

The Schlecks picked up the pace when they saw Kloden drop off the back. This did a couple of things. It increased the gap between the yellow jersey/Schleck brothers and the other two Astana riders capable of claiming podium spots. It also gives the Schlecks a larger buffer for the ITTs.

Taking the yellow jersey has to be the number one priority for the team. I don't blame Conti for wanting to "send a message". But the dynamic is a little bit different this year. Astana was in a good position to lock up the yellow jersey, and secure at least one more podium spot today - before Conti's attack. Now, all of that looks a bit more uncertain, except for yellow.

You go on about how Kloden was "toast", and that he would have lost all kinds of time regardless of the attack, or whatever. The fact is, none of this became reality _until_ Conti made the attack. It was a tactical error - period. We can only speculate as to what kind of damage this has done to the team. Obviously Bruneel and Armstrong were not happy. Kloden didn't comment, but if I were him, I don't think I'd be too happy about the attack by Conti. Do you think anyone would want to ride their butt off to help keep that guy in yellow? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I think you make a big mistake when downplaying the significance of the other two podium spots in this year's tour. Why sacrifice 2nd and 3rd just so Alberto can put another minute or two on the rest of the field? It makes no sense to me. I'm certainly no expert, but I can't find a way to justify the attack - based on what we saw before the attack. As far as I'm concerned, Alberto just about ruined Kloden's chances for a podium spot today, and maybe Armstrong's too. I respect the hell out of Alberto's riding abilities, but I think he's a bit insecure.

I hope Kloden has the ride of his life tomorrow.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_I hope Kloden has the ride of his life tomorrow._

...What, a day too late?


----------



## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

Typing out a novel doesn't make it correct


----------



## keppler (May 25, 2007)

When I saw AC attack I immdediately thought 'what a stupid, unecessary move.' It's obvious AC can destroy anyone on the climbs, he didn't look tired at all. I thought about the possible mistrust issues AC must have with LA, JB and probably the team, and this being the 2nd time he's blasted off on his own, it seemed like he was putting his own stamp on things.

It looks like (to me) it would have made more sense to stick with Kloden, have the S. brothers tow them, and possibly have Lance put on the afterburners when he dropped Wiggins to join them too.

AC left himself wide open after the attack, if his bike had tanked or he got a flat, it would have been a big setback. With Kloden by his side, and maybe Lance later, he'd have been protected. Whatever the communication AC had, it looked more like he was trying to prove a point.


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*Nope - bonehead move for the Team*



Winger said:


> I have no problems with Contador's (Johan's?) tactics, as the main goal is to wear the yellow jersey at the end of the three weeks. So he's doing perfectly fine there... but... if the goal is for Kloden to win the stage... and he says he can go... why doesn't Kloden go for it and attack? If the Schleks go with Kloden, Contador follows. If neither can follow Kloden then Contador saves some energy for the TT and Ventoux by sticking on the Schlek's wheel and still loses nothing to either Saxo rider.
> 
> The only reason I see that makes total sense is that Contador wanted more time on everyone that he considers decent at time trialing. Which if he wants to keep the percentages in his favor at the end of the day is smart... and worked out well.


Conti's attack WAS a bonehead move as far as the team went. Game plan is for Astana to sweep the podium. Contil is already locked in for the win unless he crashes out or forgets to eat....so by attacking all he did now was make that TEAM dream a near impossibility. Conti is just racing for himself and not being much of a team player.....but we kind of knew that from the start so it's really not much of a suprise.

yea, yea I know and agree that when he attacked and saw Kloden was dropped, he slowed and waited, but at that point he had already caused the damage - so as far as team tactacs (which is what the TDF is all about) BONE HEAD MOVE!!


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

KMan said:


> Contil is already locked in for the win unless he crashes out or forgets to eat....so by attacking all he did now was make that TEAM dream a near impossibility.


OK, suppose you think Contador's dig was a tactical mistake. [I don't, but whatever.]

If Contador doesn't attack, does that actually place Kloden and/or Armstrong any better? [Hint: No.]


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*Thank You!*



uzziefly said:


> The only bummer for Astana today: Klöden got cooked reallll bad.


....and why did that happen? yea, because Conti made an unnecessary bonehead move that was against general team tactics. 

I'm reading a few post here that says Conti asked Kloden about how he feels if he would attack - where is that interview posted to confirm this?? I would like to read it for myself.


----------



## Wborgers (Oct 6, 2008)

pretender said:


> OK, suppose you think Contador's dig was a tactical mistake. [I don't, but whatever.]
> 
> If Contador doesn't attack, does that actually place Kloden and/or Armstrong any better? [Hint: No.]


Dude- are you kidding on the Kloden not placing better? Contador dragged 2 guys past a dropped teammate in the GC standings- HUH?


----------



## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

contador is playing my by the TO/Manny Ramirez playbook. He is making as big a sensation as possible about himself, so that he can get the biggest check possible in his next contract. He is young, arrogant, and extremely talented. AC is in it for AC only. think of this years Tour like the football combine: score big, and your signing-bonus can go through the roof. have a lackluster showing, and well....The key difference between AC and LA(of old) is that LA was on teams where he had lots of great help, but there was only 1 GC contenter. JB is looking at his own legacy as well: imagine 3 of his charges on the podium in the same year. we talk alot about team tactics, team players, etc, but it seems these team tactics sometimes only apply to the certified domestiques. now what would be very, very interesting is to see AC have a mechanical, or a bad day, etc, and require the help of Kloden, LA etc to maintain contact. given the choice of podium or hauling AC back to the front, what would LA/kloden do?


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

jsedlak said:


> This is a very naive understanding of how racing works. You need time only on your biggest rivals. With the Schleck brothers so far down and their TT abilities up in the air, Wiggins is the big rival. It is important for Contador to gain time on Wiggins and conserve energy at the same time.
> 
> If Contador really wanted a lot of time on every stage he would attack as much as possible. This, of course, would drain him of crucial energy and eventually he would suffer on a climb and lose whatever gains he made previously. This is why, tactically, today's attack was a completely bad move. He was making important distance on Wiggins while conserving energy by riding on the Schlecks' wheels. It was smart and calculated which is how you really win the yellow jersey in Paris.
> 
> ...


I understand, but your assumption that Contador doesn't understand his limits and when to conserve energy, considering he seemed perfectly fresh the whole time and has won three Grand Tours, strikes me as naive. If he was putting himself into difficulty, he sure didn't show it. If anything, he further ripped the Schlecks before the ITT, and kicking up the pace did allow him to put more time into Wiggins, who didn't speed up when they did.


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*Agree....*



Patty said:


> I don't quite agree that Uzzie gets it.
> If Contador doesn't attack, the Schlecks STILL have to work to put time into Wiggins. Once they had gotten rid of Wiggins, they only wanted to gain time. They knew Contador has the legs to follow any hard, sudden attack, so there's no use in doing that. Just keep a steady hard, sustainable pace. This was a pace that Kloden had been, and could still follow. He only had trouble following hard, sudden attacks, the EXACT same type of attack Contador put in.
> What was Contador going to gain? He spends energy for a stage win, when he could be sucking the Schleck's wheels saving himself for Ventoux and the time trial.
> I don't agree with your statement, "The only thing contadors or JB's tactics did was increase the possibility that LA & Klodin put bigger time in the schecks tomorrow."
> ...





Patty with 6 whole post get's it, UZZi with a gazillion is missing it.
...as far as Conto racing for Conto - he did fine. As far as Conti racing for Team Astana - not the smartest tactical move.


----------



## keppler (May 25, 2007)

bauerb said:


> The key difference between AC and LA(of old) is that LA was on teams where he had lots of great help, but there was only 1 GC contenter. JB is looking at his own legacy as well: imagine 3 of his charges on the podium in the same year. we talk alot about team tactics, team players, etc, but it seems these team tactics sometimes only apply to the certified domestiques.


I think you're right here; there are too many agendas on one team. I think LA should have picked another team (Columbia?) and been top dog. If AC smoked him (with Astana backing him) then he's the better rider. If LA's experience got him a win then he's the guy to win the tour.

But in the end it makes for a more interesting TdF for us fans.


----------



## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

Contador is a jackass and all of you know it....


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*views are different*



55x11 said:


> My view is that Kloden was going to pop sooner or later. He was redlining and wasn't going to unhitch no matter what, pretty soon anyways. AC probably regretted his surge (especially since it didn't work), but I refuse to believe he dropped Kloden deliberately, that conspiracy theory makes no sense to me.


Kloden gave absolutely no visual signals that he was ready to pop - not a single one. He was riding tempo with the group with no signs of struggling. Actually when I was watching the stage after Conti made the attack I though he (Conti) looked on the ropes. His normal climbing style was much more labored. This is just the way I saw it and of course it's armchair quarter backing and hold no weight - just the way I saw it. I think Conti may have burned a few too many matches yesterday.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Buzzard said:


> To say that "he would have lost time no matter what happened" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? He appeared to be doing just fine until the Contador attack. He also soloed much of the descent while the Schlecks worked together. Do you think he would have been dropped by the Schlecks and Conti on the decent had he stayed with them to the top of the climb?
> 
> The Schlecks picked up the pace when they saw Kloden drop off the back. This did a couple of things. It increased the gap between the yellow jersey/Schleck brothers and the other two Astana riders capable of claiming podium spots. It also gives the Schlecks a larger buffer for the ITTs.
> 
> ...


+1 :thumbsup:


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*just curious*



barry1021 said:


> wasn't a choice, he missed the move. Period.


But Lance has made the statement I think 3 times that he "missed the move" and was forced to sit on wheels. Missing the move seems kind of odd for someone so advanced in race tactics and reading what is going on around him??

Thoughts on this?

Is he missing the moves to sit on wheels as a team player??
Just not having the top end at will....where now he needs to plan his accelerations?


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

pretender said:


> OK, suppose you think Contador's dig was a tactical mistake. [I don't, but whatever.]
> 
> If Contador doesn't attack, does that actually place Kloden and/or Armstrong any better? [Hint: No.]


It's quite possible that Klöden could have stayed on all the way to the finish if not for the attack. Probably no effect on Armstrong.


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

pretender said:


> If Contador doesn't attack, does that actually place Kloden and/or Armstrong any better? [Hint: No.]


Hint: YES!

Lance/Kloden were both ahead on time and would have had a buffer in today's TT. Now they both have to gain time. They would be sitting much better had Contador not attacked.

That move kept Kloden off the podium in Paris. Lance still has a shot...but has to gain, instead of maintain, time.

That was a lousy move.

The kicker.....ZERO time gained on the Schlecks! Wiggins was already gapped. The only addition time gaps were against Astana riders!


----------



## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

AC never had the real support of the team, and I think everyone knows that. he is riding for himsefl in return for the (lack of) favor. that said, without the TTT of astana, AC would have had to do more damage in the mountains. while he may have been able to, even he could not do it without a team. AC has shown he can hit the gas with a few k's remaining, but someone still has to haul is a** up the preceding hills. to say otherwise would be like Cav saying he doesn;t need a train. think of AC as a climb-sprinter. Cav is cocky, but he knows he needs a team. I think that AC forgets.


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

Does anyone think that move had more to do with gaining time on Lance than it did Wiggins?

Wiggins was already dropped. Lance was able to bridge back up the day before...and even started chasing again yesterday. With the TT and the talk of Lance going for in on Saturday the extra time on Lance surely wouldn't hurt. Not that he could make that much up on Contador. Just saying...

For the record I'm no Lance fanboy. I still think the move by Contador was dumb. But in his defense I don't blame him for riding for himself. He's been team leader since Lance left. Won the Tour, the Vuelta, and the Giro. He should have been named sole captain and given full support. If I'm in his shoes, and know how close Lance/Johan are, I'd do my own thing too.


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

bauerb said:


> AC never had the real support of the team, and I think everyone knows that. he is riding for himsefl in return for the (lack of) favor.


I agree. Which is why I can't blame him for going off script.


----------



## kenn (Aug 1, 2004)

The bottom line is that Conti didn't NEED to go. There was no need to ask JB if he could, no need to talk to Kloden if he could. No need. Period. Kloden had made it that far up the hill and stayed with the other three. He had 3KM to go. Without that attempt, it is likely that Kloden could have stayed with the group and held onto his overall position. So if the need was not there, why even ask? Why make the attempt? Why upset the apple cart at all? Ride on the wheels of the Schlecks. All this about Conti standing up when he realized Kloden popped is irrelevant. The attack didn't NEED to happen and SHOULDN'T have happened.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

bauerb said:


> AC never had the real support of the team, and I think everyone knows that. he is riding for himsefl in return for the (lack of) favor. that said, without the TTT of astana, AC would have had to do more damage in the mountains. while he may have been able to, even he could not do it without a team. AC has shown he can hit the gas with a few k's remaining, but someone still has to haul is a** up the preceding hills. to say otherwise would be like Cav saying he doesn;t need a train. think of AC as a climb-sprinter. Cav is cocky, but he knows he needs a team. I think that AC forgets.


First you say he doesn't have the support of the team, then "someone still has to haul is (sic) a** up the preceding hills." Which is it? This claim that Contador has every right to do whatever he feels like because he has no team support is BS. He sits at the back of the Astana train for the better part of every stage. If that's not support, I don't know what is. Does the team have aspirations for other places on the podium? Sure, why not? There is (or was) the possibility of an unprecedented podium sweep.


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

kenn said:


> The bottom line is that Conti didn't NEED to go. There was no need to ask JB if he could, no need to talk to Kloden if he could. No need.....


Exactly. That is why it was a stupid move. Because it simply wasn't necessary. Time on all the rivals was in place. It was simply a waste of energy.


----------



## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

> First you say he doesn't have the support of the team, then "someone still has to haul is (sic) a** up the preceding hills." Which is it? This claim that Contador has every right to do whatever he feels like because he has no team support is BS. He sits at the back of the Astana train for the better part of every stage. If that's not support, I don't know what is. Does the team have aspirations for other places on the podium? Sure, why not? There is (or was) the possibility of an unprecedented podium sweep.


Exactly!



> The bottom line is that Conti didn't NEED to go. There was no need to ask JB if he could, no need to talk to Kloden if he could. No need. Period. Kloden had made it that far up the hill and stayed with the other three. He had 3KM to go. Without that attempt, it is likely that Kloden could have stayed with the group and held onto his overall position. So if the need was not there, why even ask? Why make the attempt? Why upset the apple cart at all? Ride on the wheels of the Schlecks. All this about Conti standing up when he realized Kloden popped is irrelevant. The attack didn't NEED to happen and SHOULDN'T have happened.


Enough said. :thumbsup:


----------



## lspangle (Aug 30, 2004)

*Another angle*

Okay, so I watched the stage last night. I thought what Alberto did was dumb. 

First off, those are two BROTHERS that he isolated himself with -- not just two guys from the same team. When is that ever a good idea? Especially when you don't HAVE to do it? And you were told you didn't have to do it by your boss, who you should have some respect for. And even if you don't have respect for him, he's still your boss.

Next, he has to think about his FUTURE. He didn't listen to his DS -- how are future DS's going to think about him? How are future teammates going to feel about him? Will anyone trust him? He planted seeds of doubt.

Many are trying to compare him to Lance -- what Lance would have done, etc. The fact is, Lance + Johan always made it perfectly clear to everyone that the team would support him and that was it -- nobody expected anything else. 

Lastly, what he did made it harder for Klody and Lance to podium -- when, once again, he didn't have to. It's just a fact. How is that being a good team player?

All in all, if I was a member of the peloton -- I'd think he had major talent, but was a cowboy. If I was on another team, I'd figure out a way to use that against him. If he was looking for job, I'd wonder about hiring him.

Just my two cents


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Okay, so I watched the stage last night. I thought what Alberto did was dumb. 

_First off, those are two BROTHERS that he isolated himself with -- not just two guys from the same team._ 

Brothers are not any better riders because they share the same mother, unless they have some weird power that we don't know about.

_When is that ever a good idea? Especially when you don't HAVE to do it? And you were told you didn't have to do it by your boss, who you should have some respect for. And even if you don't have respect for him, he's still your boss._

There seems to some confusion regarding the role of Team Leader versus DS. The Team leader ultimately calls the shots, not the DS; how many times would Hinault defer to the man in the car? He might be your boss, but you have to win the races, not him.

_Next, he has to think about his FUTURE. He didn't listen to his DS -- how are future DS's going to think about him? How are future teammates going to feel about him? Will anyone trust him? He planted seeds of doubt._

He is thinking about his future, he's going to win the Tour, despite lacklustre support and a very dysfunctional team, and a DS whose loyalties lie elsewhere. Future teammates will ride for him because he wins, and pays their wages; it's a professional sport, remember?

Trust? Please tell me you don't trust LA and JB?

_Many are trying to compare him to Lance -- what Lance would have done, etc. The fact is, Lance + Johan always made it perfectly clear to everyone that the team would support him and that was it -- nobody expected anything else. _

And that is how it should have worked this year, with Contador as Team Leader, no questions asked, no stupid games, no vanity comeback project, but it didn't, yet he is still winning.

_Lastly, what he did made it harder for Klody and Lance to podium -- when, once again, he didn't have to. It's just a fact. How is that being a good team player?_

I don't know where on earth this idea of teaminess has come from; the object of the Tour is to win. That's it. C'est tout. Fin.
It's not about getting all your friends in high places; that's why the podium has *one* top step.

_All in all, if I was a member of the peloton -- I'd think he had major talent, but was a cowboy. If I was on another team, I'd figure out a way to use that against him. If he was looking for job, I'd wonder about hiring him._

I'd see him as the best stage racer in the peloton, with the biggest earning power, and the most ability. I'd also see him as a long term prospect, instead of a pre-retirement circus.

_Just my two cents_, plus mine that makes 4 cents; we could buy a house in the country and raise some chickens?


----------



## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

nonsense, just because the bus leaves the station and you are on it, does not mean the bus was for you, but nobody kicked you off either. LA and Kloden have been flirting with the podium and the team has been working for them. By "hauling" AC I simply mean that get gets to ride the bus, then jump when convenient. ask Evans what happens when the team can't deliver. I think AC thinks of himself as not needing anyone else. at the same time AC gets the indirect benefit of being "protected" by the most popwerful team in the peloton. Now I am not saying that AC is not the best rider this year, what I am saying is that he would have you believe that he could do it with or without a strong team


----------



## Harold Snepsts (Apr 26, 2009)

olr1 said:


> Okay, so I watched the stage last night. I thought what Alberto did was dumb.
> 
> _First off, those are two BROTHERS that he isolated himself with -- not just two guys from the same team._
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you cleared up the confusion. 

There's a team leader that the strategy is based around, but it's the DS who's setting the strategy for the entire team, including AC, to give the team leader the best chance of winning the Tour. HInault is not a good analogy because they weren't even using race radios then. We're in a difference era of racing. 

It's not like Contador is on the radio telling the DS what he's going to do, and Bryuneel adjusts his plan accordingly. As great a rider as he is, no one wins the Tour alone. It's a team sport and a team strategy, and the DS is the one overseeing that global strategy, of course with the input from the team leader.

At its best, it was just a boneheaded move by Contador. At its worst, it was an attempt to further distance himself from everyone, including his teammate.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_at the same time AC gets the indirect benefit of being "protected" by the most popwerful team in the peloton._

Yeh, I like the way that his 'supportive team' dropped back when he got stuck behind in the crosswinds; any halfway decent team would have dropped back and paced him up, instead of sitting smirking in the front bunch; and the DS is some kind of tactical genius?

Despite that, despite all the JB backstabbing, he has wiped the floor with everyone, his own 'teammates' included.

He's done it with a dysfunctional team and a less than loyal DS...

AC, for all his faults, for all his assumed tactical naivety, has handed the LA/JB combine their respective asses on a plate.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_ It's a team sport and a team strategy,_

With one aim in mind; to get to Paris in yellow, not to make friends, not to get a team 123, not to make JB feel good, but to *win*.

The idea that the team is bigger than the team leader is a novel one, and it'll never catch on, trust me.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

olr1 said:


> _at the same time AC gets the indirect benefit of being "protected" by the most popwerful team in the peloton._
> 
> Yeh, I like the way that his 'supportive team' dropped back when he got stuck behind in the crosswinds; any halfway decent team would have dropped back and paced him up, instead of sitting smirking in the front bunch; and the DS is some kind of tactical genius?
> 
> ...


How many team leaders who were caught out by that split were paced back?


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

olr1 said:


> Yeh, I like the way that his 'supportive team' dropped back when he got stuck behind in the crosswinds; any halfway decent team would have dropped back and paced him up, instead of sitting smirking in the front bunch; and the DS is some kind of tactical genius?


You obviously don't realize how pointless that would have been or else you wouldn't have posted it.


----------



## Harold Snepsts (Apr 26, 2009)

olr1 said:


> _ It's a team sport and a team strategy,_
> 
> With one aim in mind; to get to Paris in yellow, not to make friends, not to get a team 123, not to make JB feel good, but to *win*.
> 
> The idea that the team is bigger than the team leader is a novel one, and it'll never catch on, trust me.


The team is not bigger than the team leader. I don't recall ever saying that.

But even the best team leader needs a good team and a smart DS laying out a strategy that gets him to Paris in yellow.

So a team leader who doesn't follow the strategy laid out by the DS can end up screwing up his own chances to win the Tour

Contador's move was not what Brunyeel had laid out as the plan, and could've blown up in his face. He managed to drop his teammate and isolated himself with two great climbers in the mountains. Not very smart.

Obviously the global strategy for Astana is for Contador to win the Tour. But it's Brunyeel who's putting together the plan, not AC. 

As great a rider as AC is, he wouldn't be in yellow without JB and his team.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_As great a rider as AC is, he wouldn't be in yellow without JB and his team._

I'm not arguing just to be awkward, but I genuinely believe this to be wrong. Who else would be in yellow if not AC?
Sastre?
LA?
Shleck 1 or 2?
Wiggins?

AC has shown himself to be the best rider in this years tour *despite* the lack of support from JB, and that, more than anything marks him out to be a champion worthy of the name.

I'd also take issue with the idea that the modern DS is the architect of every victory. I think JB is a fine DS, probably the best around at the moment, but if you took him away, if they all disappeared overnight, AC would still dominate.

It's about what happens on the road, not what comes through the earpiece, or what gets agreed in the team meetings; no point saying 'ok you go here' or 'you get in this break' if the legs aint working.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*riiiiiight*



olr1 said:


> _As great a rider as AC is, he wouldn't be in yellow without JB and his team._
> 
> I'm not arguing just to be awkward, but I genuinely believe this to be wrong. Who else would be in yellow if not AC?
> Sastre?
> ...


The reality light came on. Thats fine.

However, I do not see a long line for team take it up the pooper


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ttug said:


> The reality light came on. Thats fine.
> 
> However, I do not see a long line for team take it up the pooper


Not to add more fuel to the fire, but AC's "dumb move" may have just put Armstrong in 3rd overall, as opposed to having Kloden in that spot. In fact, if Kloden finished with Schlecks and Conti yesterday (a big IF), and everything else was the same (another big IF), Kloden would be 2nd and Andy Schleck 3rd, Armstrong 4th - I just don't see LA at the podium in this case after Mt. Ventoux.


----------



## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Not to add more fuel to the fire, but AC's "dumb move" may have just put Armstrong in 3rd overall, as opposed to having Kloden in that spot. In fact, if Kloden finished with Schlecks and Conti yesterday (a big IF), and everything else was the same (another big IF), Kloden would be 2nd and Andy Schleck 3rd, Armstrong 4th - I just don't see LA at the podium in this case after Mt. Ventoux.


Yeah, you are right.
LA only has 34 seconds lead on Frank Schleck.
He will have to ride his A$% off to keep that lead.....


----------

