# DA 9000 RD pinging spokes



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Greetings, wondering if anyone else has noticed an issue with the new 11 speed 9000 series DA rear derailleur touching the spokes when under heavy load in the lowest gear?

The cassette is a DA 11-28T mounted on a Zipp 202 Firecrest wheel in a S-Works Roubaix SL4 frame.

Under normal riding I can use the 36 x 28 combo no worries, although its really only used on the steep stuff. When grinding up a steep incline (15-20%) or out of the saddle, obviously I'm getting enough flex in either the wheel or the frame so the RD touches the spokes at times. I'm worried about jamming the RD into the wheel if I push just that bit extra or hit a bump etc.

The main reason I'm asking is that the RD cage and jockey wheels on the 9000 series appear to be canted in slightly toward the wheel, more or less following the line of the spokes from hub to rim, so the lower jockey wheel is more inboard than the upper one. Is this normal?? The lower part of the RD cage also appears to flare out slightly toward the bottom which makes it worse.
The Ultegra RD on my other bike appears to be more or less perpendicular with the cog and two jockey wheels in a straight line to the ground.

I've tried to attach a pic showing it, but hard to get the right angle, easier to see with the naked eye etc

View attachment 281474


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Your LBS needs to learn how to align the Rd hanger before delivering a bike.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

goodboyr said:


> Your LBS needs to learn how to align the Rd hanger before delivering a bike.


Oh, really? Excuse my novice question on RD hangers then, but other than doing the two screws up, what other adjustment is there??


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

There's a park tool that aligns the hanger so it's parallel. Its a basic check that the lbs should do after delivery. Easy for it to bend out of alignment during shipping, or during manufacture.


----------



## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

goodboyr said:


> Your LBS needs to learn how to align the Rd hanger before delivering a bike.


Or it could have happened if the bike fell to that side.

But yes, your hanger is bent. I can see the problem in the pic; the cage should be perpendicular to the ground, not angled toward the spokes.

Shouldn't take much time for the shop to fix.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

thanks for the replies, I'll drop it in to them and get them to check it out. 

Interesting though, with the chain on the 28T there is still a good 4-5mm of clearance to the spokes, so I'm still getting it to flex more than I thought it would.

cheers


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm not suggesting that a bent RD hanger isn't possible, because it is, but since you don't make mention of other shifting issues, I don't think your symptoms are consistent with that.

IMO, more likely, there's flex that wouldn't occur in a work stand during tuning that the wrench has to compensate for with a slight adjustment to the low (limit) adjustment screw.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Randy99CL said:


> Or it could have happened if the bike fell to that side.
> 
> But yes, your hanger is bent. I can see the problem in the pic; the cage should be perpendicular to the ground, not angled toward the spokes.
> 
> Shouldn't take much time for the shop to fix.


thanks, will see what the LBS comes up with on Thursday. Other than the odd ping off the spokes when driving it hard up a hill in the 28t, the drive train is dead quiet and shifting is perfect. I guess I wasnt sure if the RD had a slightly different design for chain line being 11 speed etc. i was going to bugger around with the low limit screw myself, but since I had so much clearance normally, didnt really seem to make sense.


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Flex could mean a soft hanger. Sometimes if they are bent, they lose their stiffness and need to be replaced. You can go with oem or a wheels manufacturing one. As well, check the bearing preload on your Zipp hub. If the bearings are loose the wheel may move more than it should.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

goodboyr said:


> Flex could mean a soft hanger. Sometimes if they are bent, they lose their stiffness and need to be replaced. You can go with oem or a wheels manufacturing one. As well, check the bearing preload on your Zipp hub. If the bearings are loose the wheel may move more than it should.


Once a RD hanger's been bent, it's strength may be *somewhat* compromised, but generally they're still serviceable and don't arbitrarily flex.

I think it's much more likely that there's a need to fine tune the drivetrain (low limit screw) to account for normally occurring flex.

Your theory of hub play is possibly a contributing factor. That can easily be checked by holding the tire and moving it side to side (left/ right. Bearing play can be felt and sometimes, heard.


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

If it's been bent a few times and restraightened, aluminum tends to get little cracks that make the hanger easier to bend. Always good to get a new one, and keep a spare.


----------



## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

It's a Roubaix.... They flex. I blame your Zerts. Buy a Venge instead....

Just kidding.

Probably the hanger and let's face it tolerances keep getting tighter and tighter and this is the end result.

Hope you get it sorted, great bike the Roubaix and great wheels and group you have as well.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

TmB123 said:


> ... the RD cage and jockey wheels on the 9000 series appear to be canted in slightly toward the wheel, more or less following the line of the spokes from hub to rim, so *the lower jockey wheel is more inboard than the upper one. *Is this normal?? The lower part of the RD cage also appears to flare out slightly toward the bottom which makes it worse.
> The Ultegra RD on my other bike appears to be more or less perpendicular with the cog and two jockey wheels in a straight line to the ground.


Since we're all more or less guessing here, another possibility is a bent RD cage. But because shifting is otherwise fine, I'll stay with my prediction that the limit screw will sort this out.

Can't wait for Thursday's update, OP!


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> Since we're all more or less guessing here, another possibility is a bent RD cage. But because shifting is otherwise fine, I'll stay with my prediction that the limit screw will sort this out.
> 
> Can't wait for Thursday's update, OP!


Yes, time will tell!
i tried wiggling the wheel side to side, no noticable play or clunking sounds from the bearings.
interesting you say about the bent RD cage as from my initial description and the photo, the upper jockey wheel looks to be more or less directly below the corresponding cassette cog, however its the lower jockey wheel and cage that appears to be more significantly angled closer to the spokes. The lower part of the cage also gets wider toward the bottom (designed that way) which doesnt help.

will hopefully have an answer, a fix, and my bike, tomorrow night

cheers
Tim


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

This forum should have a way of dealing with wagers. I would put money on the hanger theory.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

goodboyr said:


> This forum should have a way of dealing with wagers. I would put money on the hanger theory.


Ok, I'll put 5 bucks on it. 

I don't think anyone is saying definitively it _isn't_ the hanger, but given everything the OP has offered (mainly, that the bike shifts fine), I think the odds are good it's a simple (limit screw) adjustment. 

The dynamics of road riding are far different from a static bike being tuned on a work stand - where wrenches typically tune bikes before delivery to customers.


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

I'm in! Paypal!


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

goodboyr said:


> I'm in! Paypal!


LOL... I'm a techno dinosaur. No PayPal. Snail mail with 5 bucks in a security envelope. :wink5:


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> LOL... I'm a techno dinosaur. No PayPal. Snail mail with 5 bucks in a security envelope. :wink5:


Deal! I am Canadian, but I will pay in US$.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

goodboyr said:


> Deal! I am Canadian, but I will pay in US$.


Ah, then if I lose I have to send you ~$6.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

goodboyr said:


> Flex could mean a soft hanger


Bear in mind that they are soft for a reason- you want the hanger to break rather than the frame to break.

But, yeah, get a spare, and only straighten them once.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

TmB123 said:


> Interesting though, with the chain on the 28T there is still a good 4-5mm of clearance to the spokes, so I'm still getting it to flex more than I thought it would.


That's quite a lot of flex, not impossible but maybe not the only explanation. How confident are you that the RD is actually making contact with the spokes? Could the spokes just be pinging all by themselves when under high load?


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

ukbloke said:


> That's quite a lot of flex, not impossible but maybe not the only explanation. How confident are you that the RD is actually making contact with the spokes? Could the spokes just be pinging all by themselves when under high load?


Yes, the flex is due to my awesome power output! 

You can actually see small scuff marks on the spokes where it makes contact. Unfortunately hard to replicate as you really need to be putting quite a bit of power through the pedals on a steep hill to get it to do it

I was actually wrong about the hubs too, I found some play in them this morning while loading it into the car so it may be a combination of things, some play in the hubs and maybe a soft/ bent hanger, and of course, my awesome power.


----------



## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

For those that are doubting that the hangar is bent, just hold a piece of paper against the upper part of the chain in the pic. Right there on your monitor, get it lined up with the chain as best you can.

The bottom part of the chain is about one chains' width off to the left. Either bend hangar (most likely) or bent cage.

Edit: If I had photoshop I'd draw a straight line that would really highlight it.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Soooo, the verdict. It was a combo, according to the shop. A combo of a slightly bent hanger and some play in the Zipp hub. I've not ridden it to confirm yet as I need to find a fairly steep hill, but the RD appears visibly straighter, wouldnt say there's a lot more clearance, but more none the less and hopefully enough in conjunction with the hubs being tightened.

thanks for all your suggestions!


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Hmmmmmmm, 6$..............looks like Bobbo is getting a new spare tube today!


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

TmB123 said:


> Soooo, the verdict. It was a combo, according to the shop. A combo of a slightly bent hanger and some play in the Zipp hub. I've not ridden it to confirm yet as I need to find a fairly steep hill, but the RD appears visibly straighter, wouldnt say there's a lot more clearance, but more none the less and hopefully enough in conjunction with the hubs being tightened.
> 
> thanks for all your suggestions!


I'm not surprised that there was more than one contributing factor. I'd bet that the RD hanger was _very_ slightly 'bent' (and probably right from the factory), because you had no other shifting problems. 

The play in the hub makes complete sense. 

Glad you got it sorted out and can now (hopefully) enjoy your bike.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

goodboyr said:


> Hmmmmmmm, 6$..............looks like Bobbo is getting a new spare tube today!


Not so fast, Bobbo. There were two issues, one of which we agreed on, the other, I never denied (but offered skepticism).

Soooooo, I'll split the difference. You mail me $3 and I'll mail you back $3. Deal?


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> Glad you got it sorted out and can now (hopefully) enjoy your bike.


thanks, I've always enjoyed the bike as this was more of a minor annoyance, in fact, I absolutely love this bike!

not the best pic I have, but the best I have at hand...


----------



## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

Sounds like it was resolved with the hangar and hub adjustment? One other issue that could cause the derailleur to ping off the spokes under load is a wheel that is out of tension (loose spokes).


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

TmB123 said:


> thanks, I've always enjoyed the bike as this was more of a minor annoyance, in fact, I absolutely love this bike!
> 
> not the best pic I have, but the best I have at hand...


Beautiful bike. I have two Tarmacs and have often considered a Roubaix, but haven't made the jump... yet. 

What frame size is it?


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> Not so fast, Bobbo. There were two issues, one of which we agreed on, the other, I never denied (but offered skepticism).
> 
> Soooooo, I'll split the difference. You mail me $3 and I'll mail you back $3. Deal?


Ha! Well if you look at one of my posts on this thread, I got both issues bang on! But I agree with your assessment, you mail me 3us$ and I will mail you 3 can$. So in total, you owe me about 15 cents.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> Beautiful bike. I have two Tarmacs and have often considered a Roubaix, but haven't made the jump... yet.
> 
> What frame size is it?


it's a 52, was interested to hear Chavanel recently say that the Roubaix SL4 is just as fast and efficient as his Tarmac, just more comfortable. Laughed when they asked him why he didnt ride it all year round then and he wasnt sure how to answer!

this is a better pic, think this is in the bike pic thread somewhere too


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I don't think there's any question that Roubaix's are fast. Numerous wins on the pro circuit affirms that. If there was any performance related difference, it would be the negligible aero advantage given shorter head tube on Tarmacs. But that doesn't become a factor at speeds most of us can't sustain and with saddle to bar drops that most of us couldn't tolerate.

Really is a beaut. I would have guessed a 52, which is what I ride.

Enjoy!!


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

goodboyr said:


> Ha! Well if you look at one of my posts on this thread, I got both issues bang on!


I completely agree. You nailed this, so you get the award for best diagnostician. I'll even rep ya one for it! :thumbsup:


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Back at you.....since you were half right!


----------

