# Pinarello Dogma 2 $16,500



## Wyatt963 (Oct 11, 2008)

Has anyone else seen the 2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 / Campagnolo Super Record EPS for sale at Competitive Cyclists for $16,500.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

the McLaren Venge goes for more and it's not electronic or is it?

$10,000 Bikes ? What's The Point? - BikeRadar


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## Wyatt963 (Oct 11, 2008)

What drives the cost of this bike, is it the amount of labor required to build one?


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## jcgill (Jul 20, 2010)

I got their email with the Pinarellos in it yesterday, very nice bikes.....i would love to try out the Campy electric stuff sometime!


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Isnt this discussed in the chinese carbon crapola thread?


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Seriously its cool lookin but i dont know if its worth it.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Best of all, you get a 2 year warranty. Yay!


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

*Pinarello Dogma 2*

If you can afford the bike, what is the problem? I would like to have the super record eps system, but need to see more info and review data on it.


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## Hanks (Sep 30, 2011)

*Pinerello PT Barnum 2*

It's really amazing how some really dumb people have so much money.










Hank


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

King Arthur said:


> If you can afford the bike, what is the problem?


No problem with anyone buying it, and no problem with laughing at them for doing it.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Wyatt963 said:


> What drives the cost of this bike, is it the amount of labor required to build one?


Heck no. These frames cost a few hundred bucks to build.

You can buy a bike with a custom carbon frame from Crumpton, Parlee, Serotta, etc. for less money, and those are built in the U.S. to the customer's specification.

These bikes from the big bike makers are like putting a Ferrari price on a Yugo and then seeing who is dumb enough to buy one.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

For comparison the MSRP of a 2011 Ducati 1198 is $16,495 (and anything left in stock right now is likely being blown out because of the new 1199).

Can you guess which one I feel is the better value?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> Heck no. These frames cost a few hundred bucks to build.
> 
> You can buy a bike with a custom carbon frame from Crumpton, Parlee, Serotta, etc. for less money, and those are built in the U.S. to the customer's specification.
> 
> These bikes from the big bike makers are like putting a Ferrari price on a Yugo and then seeing who is dumb enough to buy one.


Right. The price isn't driven by cost, but what they can get some consumers to pay. That's standard marketing strategy: Create a "high-end" version of a product and charge through the nose for it because you know there is a segment of the market that can afford it and will pay it. Those products have the highest profit margin.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

What is the warranty policy of this frame (Pinarello Dogma 2 $16,500)? Till the end of the universe (or just lifetime warranty), no question ask, 1 year satisfaction guarantee?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

WTFcyclist said:


> What is the warranty policy of this frame (Pinarello Dogma 2 $16,500)? Till the end of the universe (or just lifetime warranty), no question ask, 1 year satisfaction guarantee?


As has already been mentioned in this thread, the warranty on it is 2 years.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I see lots of S-Class Mercedes, 7-series BMWs and Porsche 911s being used as commuters here in Chicago. In the summer, the harbors are flooded with hundreds of million dollar sailboats that millionaires use for about four months out of the year in the lake and dry dock for thousands of dollars a month in the winter. I know men who blow five grand on a single suit. I know lots of women spend a few thousand on a purse. People give money to NPR (heh). There are entire towns in Florida that consist solely of $7MM, 10,000 square foot houses built for couples. All of this is much more common than someone buying a Ferrari Colnago.

My point is that in the grand scheme of things there are lots of worse ways to blow a lot more money than $16K. At least a bike requires some physical activity to operate.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Hiro11 said:


> I see lots of S-Class Mercedes, 7-series BMWs and Porsche 911s being used as commuters here in Chicago. In the summer, the harbors are flooded with hundreds of million dollar sailboats that millionaires use for about four months out of the year in the lake and dry dock for thousands of dollars a month in the winter. I know men who blow five grand on a single suit. I know lots of women spend a few thousand on a purse. People give money to NPR (heh). There are entire towns in Florida that consist solely of $7MM, 10,000 square foot houses built for couples. All of this is much more common than someone buying a Ferrari Colnago.
> 
> My point is that in the grand scheme of things there are lots of worse ways to blow a lot more money than $16K. At least a bike requires some physical activity to operate.


By that logic, there are no stupid ways to spend money. 

The question is not whether there are worse ways to spend money. There always are. The question is whether there are better ones.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Stupid stuff that people with too much money and too little taste do.

Yes. That's an Alfa Romeo. In a General Lee paint scheme.


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## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

When you're that rich, money doesn't matter.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have seen posts about this particular bike on several forums, and each time I see people complaining about the price I ask: "Why do they give a $hit?" 

Pinarello is selling 1st generation technology with Super Record EPS and charging a premium for it. It is standard procedure in this industry. Almost every piece of gear we use today came out with a price that brought gasps from many people. Give it a year and the prices will go down. 

You don't have to buy the Pinarello EPS bike. If someone else wants to buy it at that price, good for them. The profit made from selling something like that will help Pinarello fund the sponsorship for my team and others. Pro riders being on bikes like this helps companies develop better products down the line which eventually trickle down to low level frames. People who buy bikes like this help you get a better bike in the future. 

It seems that many who have a problem with bikes in this price range argue that customers are getting suckered by buying a bike that will perform very close to something costing $12,000 less. If this is your argument and you are riding a bike more expensive than a Cannondale CAAD 10/Specialized Allez with SRAM Rival you are doing the very thing that you are critical of in those buying this Pinarello. The technology in most of the "low end" frames is at least as good if not better than the bikes riders were using in the height of the EPO era. If a CAAD frame in 2002 could handle 480+ watts for an hour or a 1700+ watt sprint the CAAD 10 is way more bike than you will ever need. 


I just do not understand the vitriol that Pinarello is getting for offering a bike at this price.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

chase196126 said:


> I just do not understand the vitriol that Pinarello is getting for offering a bike at this price.


I think people scoff at the price because subtacting off the cost of the components and wheels leaves an outrageous price for a stock frame popped out of a mold in China.

Bike companies don't sponsor pro teams for development. It's for marketing. They sponsor pro teams to increase their brand values and raise their prices.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> Bike companies don't sponsor pro teams for development. It's for marketing. They sponsor pro teams to increase their brand values and raise their prices.


The main purpose of sponsoring a team is for marketing, but companies also receive a lot of feedback from mechanics and riders, which is an added bonus for the company as well as customers. I know for a fact that our BISSELL mechanics have helped Pinarello develop and improve some of the parts on the Dogma 1.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

chase196126 said:


> The main purpose of sponsoring a team is for marketing, but companies also receive a lot of feedback from mechanics and riders, which is an added bonus for the company as well as customers. I know for a fact that our BISSELL mechanics have helped Pinarello develop and improve some of the parts on the Dogma 1.


I hate to break this to you, but Pinarello cares about two teams: Sky and Movistar. What they say goes. They sponsor Bissell to have a presence in the lucrative US market.

If Bissell says A and Sky says B, guess which one goes? I realize you want to defend Pinarello because you get free bikes from them, which is great. But their pricing is still ridiculous, and just because there are nitwits who pay for it, doesn't mean the rest of us can't laugh at them.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

PaxRomana said:


> I hate to break this to you, but Pinarello cares about two teams: Sky and Movistar. What they say goes. They sponsor Bissell to have a presence in the lucrative US market.
> 
> If Bissell says A and Sky says B, guess which one goes? I realize you want to defend Pinarello because you get free bikes from them, which is great. But their pricing is still ridiculous, and just because there are nitwits who pay for it, doesn't mean the rest of us can't laugh at them.


Not to sound rude but no $hit, of course Pinarello listens to the desires of Movistar and Sky more than our continental team. We dont get a major say in the features that go into new products, but they still listen to the feedback that our mechanics have given them on their products. They don't write off our opinion just because we are a continental team, which is what any good sponsor should do. Pinarello has treated our team well and it gets under my skin when people complain about their product because they dont want to pay the asking price. 

I don't understand why so many are bothered by the pricing on these high end frames, especially when the diffent companies are producing a good product they will stand behind with a warrenty. If Pina wants to price it at $16000 it is your choice if you dont want to buy. It's a premium product that some are willing to pay a premium price for. Calling someone who buys an expensive bike a nitwit for doing so is about as immature as you can get. 

Just my .02 on the issue, just like yours.


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## Wyatt963 (Oct 11, 2008)

You raised some very good points chase19126, and I now think it is good that there are some people out there who will spend this amount of money on a bike. It allows the technology of bikes to be elevated, and will eventually find its way to the lower priced bikes, therefor benefitting all of us.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

chase196126 said:


> Pinarello has treated our team well and it gets under my skin when people complain about their product because they dont want to pay the asking price.


Cry me a river, Chase. You don't have to pay the asking price because you get a free one. Apparently, in your little planet, people shouldn't complain about pricing. Let me know when you decide to come back to reality. This entire board is dedicated to reviews. In other words, people opine on product AND pricing. Not sure why you need that obvious concept explained to you. 



chase196126 said:


> I don't understand why so many are bothered by the pricing on these high end frames, especially when the diffent companies are producing a good product they will stand behind with a warrenty.


Take an economics class, and maybe you will understand. Warranty? Try a 2-year warranty for the $16,500 bike. Yeah. They're really "willing to stand behind the product" all right. For a 2 years. You have no clue about the warranty process through Gita anyway, since you didn't buy yours. Read up on it, and you'll see multiple people who had paint fading issues after one year and found out that the warranty for paint is...ONE year. 



chase196126 said:


> If Pina wants to price it at $16000 it is your choice if you dont want to buy. It's a premium product that some are willing to pay a premium price for. Calling someone who buys an expensive bike a nitwit for doing so is about as immature as you can get.


No sh!t, skippy. Of course it's my choice. I'm also free to opine on whether people who spend $16k on that bike have far more money than common sense. But it's always nice to get the unbiased opinion of someone who gets the bike for free and is essentially paid to shill for the brand.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Wyatt963 said:


> You raised some very good points chase19126, and I now think it is good that there are some people out there who will spend this amount of money on a bike. It allows the technology of bikes to be elevated, and will eventually find its way to the lower priced bikes, therefor benefitting all of us.


It all sounds good but it is a crock. Pinarello does not make its frames. It does not develop technology that filters down to its lower priced bikes. It uses the same materials, the same construction methods, and the same factories that the other big bike companies use. There is no factory in Taiwan where they use proprietary Pinarello technology that is not used in the construction of frames that the factory makes for other companies. The only thing that Pinarello does is paint frames made in Taiwan and then put a "Made in Italy" decal on them. Pinarello does little more than design the cosmetic look of its frame. It is little more than a marketing operation these days.

Their high priced top end bikes do not eventually result in lower priced bikes. The purpose of these bikes is exactly the opposite. Pinarello's goal is not necessarily to sell many of them. The purpose is to set a high price point to make the mid priced bikes seem more reasonable. This is standard marketing 101. In other words, the purpose is to pull the prices of all of Pinarello's bikes upward.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

trailrunner68 said:


> It all sounds good but it is a crock. Pinarello does not make its frames. It does not develop technology that filters down to its lower priced bikes. It uses the same materials, the same construction methods, and the same factories that the other big bike companies use. There is no factory in Taiwan where they use proprietary Pinarello technology that is not used in the construction of frames that the factory makes for other companies. The only thing that Pinarello does is paint frames made in Taiwan and then put a "Made in Italy" decal on them. Pinarello does little more than design the cosmetic look of its frame. It is little more than a marketing operation these days.
> 
> Their high priced top end bikes do not eventually result in lower priced bikes. The purpose of these bikes is exactly the opposite. Pinarello's goal is not necessarily to sell many of them. The purpose is to set a high price point to make the mid priced bikes seem more reasonable. This is standard marketing 101. In other words, the purpose is to pull the prices of all of Pinarello's bikes upward.


You are grossly understating, to the point of ignorance, the input that Pinarello has in the design and construction of their frames.


If Mary Kate and Ashley can charge $39,000 for a backpack

The Row - Fall

I see no problem in Pinarello/Campy charging $16,500 for some cutting edge bike tech
Who makes the moulds that are used in the manufacture of the frames?
Who determines the lay up of the carbon on the frames?
Who does the finite enlement analysis that leads to the frame design?

They are not just sending a picture to China and slapping a few stickers on the final product.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

PINARELLO dogma 2 carbon
Material: Carbon 60HM1K Torayca®
Rear Stay: Onda™ 2 Carbon 60HM1K
Fork: Onda™ Carbon 60HM1K 1" 1/8 1" 1/2 integral system

Has anybody ever seen a frame from another company with comparable materials?
What's the points (e.g. scientific explanation) of making wavy forks and rear stays?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

WTFcyclist said:


> PINARELLO dogma 2 carbon
> Material: Carbon 60HM1K Torayca®
> Rear Stay: Onda™ 2 Carbon 60HM1K
> Fork: Onda™ Carbon 60HM1K 1" 1/8 1" 1/2 integral system
> ...


Toray carbon? Everyone uses it. Most of the cheaper frames are made from T700. The higher-end frames are T1000. 60HM is just the modulus. 1k refers to the cosmetic weave. 

Pinarello is made by Carbotec in Taiwan, who makes frames for lots of other manufacturers. Martec does the same. There are only a few of these companies that basically burn carbon DVDs for bike brands all over the world.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

ewitz said:


> You are grossly understating, to the point of ignorance, the input that Pinarello has in the design and construction of their frames.
> 
> I see no problem in Pinarello/Campy charging $16,500 for some cutting edge bike tech
> Who makes the moulds that are used in the manufacture of the frames?
> ...


And you are grossly overstating what Pinarello does. I've seen their factory. It's not some hi-tech operation. It's a paint shop. Do they do design? Sure. So does Orbea, Ridley, Cannondale, etc. To say that Pinarello is "cutting edge bike tech" is willfully swallowing a ton of marketing bs. There is nothing "cutting edge" about Pinarello except the price. I have owned 2 Pinarellos: Prince and Dogma FPX. Great bikes. They were more "cutting edge" when they were working with magnesium. 

Interesting that you bring up stickers. A lot of their new "paint jobs" are just that: stickers. That new sparkly area on the Dogma 2? Yep. It's a sticker. Pretty cutting edge, eh?


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

PaxRomana said:


> Toray carbon? Everyone uses it. Most of the cheaper frames are made from T700. The higher-end frames are T1000. 60HM is just the modulus. 1k refers to the cosmetic weave.


I'm not even sure what "60HM (High Modulus?)" means. I look at the table on this article: Sounding Tech to Sell Bikes | Argonaut Cycles









Toray carbon M60J: www.toraycfa.com/pdfs/M60JDataSheet.pdf
Or Tensile Modulus = 60msi


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

ewitz said:


> You are grossly understating, to the point of ignorance, the input that Pinarello has in the design and construction of their frames.
> 
> 
> If Mary Kate and Ashley can charge $39,000 for a backpack
> ...


Cutting edge bike tech? LOL. There is nothing cutting edge in a Pinarello that you won't find in the latest generic carbon frame made by Flybike and sold on eBay for a few hundred bones. The "high tech design" is now fundamental stuff. The software can be bought by anyone. These days the important job their that designers do is deciding on the cosmetic look of the frame because that is the only way they have of differentiating their frame from others. Well, that and pouring a ton of money into pro cycling sponsorship.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

PaxRomana said:


> Cry me a river, Chase. You don't have to pay the asking price because you get a free one. Apparently, in your little planet, people shouldn't complain about pricing.
> 
> 
> No sh!t, skippy. Of course it's my choice. I'm also free to opine on whether people who spend $16k on that bike have far more money than common sense. But it's always nice to get the unbiased opinion of someone who gets the bike for free and is essentially paid to shill for the brand.


In my little world I think it is absurd for people to cry out again the pricing of a premium product as though a brand is attacking them personally. We aren't discussing the cost of food or heating, these are items that for 99.9% of the world are *extreme* luxury items. There will always be people willing to pay a large sum of money for a technology or item that is cutting edge or "exclusive", ranging from computers to wrist watches. You complain about the economics of bikes being priced this high, but why? My guess is that prices like Pinarello's push up the cost of other high end bikes which then makes owning the "best" much more expensive. Yet, the technology that is cutting edge now will be "low end" and relatively cheap in 5 years but it will not carry the cache of being the "best" anymore, which makes it less desirable to you.

I wonder, where is your breaking point in price that takes someone from a savvy buyer to a nitwit for bicycling gear? Do you ride a road bike that costs more than $400? A bike that most people on this site would consider "entry level" costs 4-5 times that, yet is going to offer very little in the way of real world benefit. Does that make all those people nitwits? They are paying much more for something they want and enjoy, not because they need that nicer item. The actual differences between the $400 bike and an Allez are extremely small, just as the difference between a $4000 Cervelo and the Pinarello is extremely small, but some are willing to pay the extra price to have something they will enjoy. That is the point of luxury hobbies and products. 

Calling others nitwits for buying something they enjoy while partaking in the same practice is hypocritical as well as helping propagate the general belief that roadies are a bunch of judgmental pricks. 

Also:
I enjoy talking about bike tech, it's one of my biggest passions. I have had an account on this site (and several others) for much longer than I have been paid to ride. Feel free to discount my opinion, but I am not shilling for anyone. The opinion I have stated here stands for any bike company's pricing, from the McClaren Specialized to the Cervelo R5CA.

I readily admit I don't have experience buying from Pinarello or Gita, and I don't have experience with their warranty system, so I don't comment on threads involving them because I have nothing valuable to contribute.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

I think there's a huge lack of value for your money in something like the Pinarello. When a bicycle costs the same as Ducati's (base) top of the line model there's something seriously wrong. As I stated in another thread on a similar subject, _"I couldn't imagine paying even $5k for a bike if the frame was hand built by Eddy Merckx, the bike assembled by Jacques Anquetil, test ridden by Fausto Coppi and packed in the box by Felice Gimondi."_ Obviously I'm in the minority considering how many +$5k bikes are sold but that still doesn't mean they're getting value for their money. If someone wants to spend that kind of money on a bike I'm not going to stop them....it's their money and they can do as they wish. However, they shouldn't expect me to think they spent it wisely nor should they expect me not to be LMAO inside.

There was a time when a Pinarello was a special bike and I lusted after one. Now they (sadly, like many other companies) are just another cookie cutter marketing machine and I wouldn't own one if someone gave it to me.


chase196126 said:


> The actual differences between the $400 bike and an Allez are extremely small, just as the difference between a $4000 Cervelo and the Pinarello is extremely small, but some are willing to pay the extra price to have something they will enjoy.


There's a much larger difference between that $400 bike and the Allez than there is between the Cervelo and the Pinarello. Orders of magnitude in fact.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

PRB: I agree that this Dogma is not a value item in any way. It's priced exorbitantly high because they are selling a very limited stock to a very limited market place. The people buying these are paying for the exclusivity of having 1 of 50 or so that will enter the USA. To them this exclusivity may be worth the $16000 price tag




PRB said:


> There's a much larger difference between that $400 bike and the Allez than there is between the Cervelo and the Pinarello. Orders of magnitude in fact.


I disagree with this statement. 
This $399 bike for a quick example: Save up to 60% off new Road Bikes - Gravity Liberty 2 | Save up to 60% off new road bikes 

It has hood based shifting that is almost a full copy of Shimano, heavy duty wheels, an aluminum frame with an integrated headset, etc. 

The cheapest Allez MSRP is $1350. Compared to the bikesdirect bike you get 2 more speeds in the rear, a bit lighter bike overall, and a frame that has a tapered head tube that is going to be a bit stiffer, but it will cost 3 times as much.

There are no truly major differences between the two bikes functionally and I argue that your riding speed would not differ significantly between the two. Both will shift gears, go fast if you push them, with comparable tires both will feel extremely close in ride quality. However, I know which of the two I would prefer and that is the Allez for sure. I just can't argue that I would *need* the Allez to ride. It would be a choice based on getting the bike I like better and not going for the absolute best functional value.

The same would go for the Cervelo and Pinarello. The electronic 11 speed and integrated frame isn't necessary, but (for me) it would certainly make riding a more exciting/pleasurable experience because I would get to ride really cool high end stuff.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

chase196126 said:


> In my little world I think it is absurd for people to cry out again the pricing of a premium product as though a brand is attacking them personally. We aren't discussing the cost of food or heating, these are items that for 99.9% of the world are *extreme* luxury items. There will always be people willing to pay a large sum of money for a technology or item that is cutting edge or "exclusive", ranging from computers to wrist watches. You complain about the economics of bikes being priced this high, but why? My guess is that prices like Pinarello's push up the cost of other high end bikes which then makes owning the "best" much more expensive. Yet, the technology that is cutting edge now will be "low end" and relatively cheap in 5 years but it will not carry the cache of being the "best" anymore, which makes it less desirable to you.


Pinarello isn't attacking me personally, so there is no use inventing strawmen. I have owned two Pinarellos, a Prince and a Dogma FPX (I paid $999 for it on Bonktown). I have owned bikes from Time, Moots, BMC, Kuota, Orbea, Cannondale, etc. 

There isn't anything "cutting edge" about Pinarello, IMO. What do you find "cutting edge" about it? Wavy stays? The fact that they're mass produced in Taiwan? You're confusing "cutting edge" in price with "cutting edge" in quality. They're a marketing machine. The bikes are nice, sure, but they're really nothing special. I'm sorry that you've created some make-believe world where nobody should be allowed to complain about price, but don't confuse that with reality. 

$5750 for a Dogma2 is stupid. There's no high tech there. Want to see real bike manufacturing? Take a look at the Time factory. Yeah, Flybike had such a hard time copying the Pinarello because it's so "cutting edge". You see them trying to copy Time? Thought not. Copying quality is a bit harder.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

PaxRomana said:


> There isn't anything "cutting edge" about Pinarello, IMO. What do you find "cutting edge" about it? Wavy stays? The fact that they're mass produced in Taiwan? You're confusing "cutting edge" in price with "cutting edge" in quality. They're a marketing machine. The bikes are nice, sure, but they're really nothing special. I'm sorry that you've created some make-believe world where nobody should be allowed to complain about price, but don't confuse that with reality.
> 
> $5750 for a Dogma2 is stupid. There's no high tech there. Want to see real bike manufacturing? Take a look at the Time factory. Yeah, Flybike had such a hard time copying the Pinarello because it's so "cutting edge". You see them trying to copy Time? Thought not.


What bikes do you consider cutting edge? Out of your collection Cannondale, Orbea, Kuota, and Pinarello are all produced in Taiwan. That doesn't make them any worse than your Time, BMC or your Moots. 

If anything TIME is using outdated carbon techniques with their lugged designs, still producing integrated seat posts that most have come to consider a gimmick, and peddling BS aero claims on their ridiculously shaped road bike tubes. Moots is playing around with a material that has long since been abandoned by all but niche markets, and BMC was produced in Taiwan until recently. Yet their new Swiss factory has been unable to get their newest IMPEC frame out to the market within 2 years of it being shown to the public. 

I like my Pinarello because it is extremely stiff which leads to very good handling for racing as well as a very solid feeling bike. The frame is more durable than the ultralight frames that are in pieces after a single crash or even tipping over at a coffee shop. The ride quality is great for my style of riding and I prefer a frame built with ride quality and handling in mind rather than ultra light weight. Those characteristics are what I value in a high end bike and consider cutting edge. I don't consider 700 gram frames that ride like wood and require 3 pounds of chain stuffed in their seatpost to be cutting edge. Neither, I think, do Protour riders who request such bikes to be built with extra plies of carbon to stiffen them up. Not that my opinion will register with you because I am a paid shill 

I've never claimed you can't complain about price, but just as the high price gets under your skin your flawed logic and absurd complaining about the pricing of a luxury item gets under mine and I am as happy and free to express my opinions as you are yours.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

chase196126 said:


> What bikes do you consider cutting edge? Out of your collection Cannondale, Orbea, Kuota, and Pinarello are all produced in Taiwan. That doesn't make them any worse than your Time, BMC or your Moots.
> 
> If anything TIME is using outdated carbon techniques with their lugged designs, still producing integrated seat posts that most have come to consider a gimmick, and peddling BS aero claims on their ridiculously shaped road bike tubes. Moots is playing around with a material that has long since been abandoned by all but niche markets, and BMC was produced in Taiwan until recently. Yet their new Swiss factory has been unable to get their newest IMPEC frame out to the market within 2 years of it being shown to the public.
> 
> ...


Claiming lugged designs are "outdated" just shows how little you understand bike technology. Lugged frames are harder to manufacture than your run-of-the mill carbon monocoque frame mass produced in the Far East. They're "outdated" because they're harder to make and harder to reproduce in mass quantities. Companies have mored their production to the Far East in order to take advantage of production on a massive scale. That's why everybody's yapping about monocoque frames. Companies sell them because they're cheap to make.

Time's manufacturing techniques are so "outdated" that BMC spent millions making a factory that builds frames like...you guessed it...Time. I am guessing you've never ridden a Time or you'd know the difference between it and your average Trek or Pinarello. 

I agree about the ultra-lightweight frames. They're silly. But those are also considered "cutting edge" by their fans. Time isn't super lightweight. Neither is the Colnago C59, which, unlike Pinarello, is actually REALLY made in Italy. I'm guessing that even that "Made in Italy" sticker is actually made in China or Taiwan.

Pinarello is a luxury item in name only. In that sense, it's a fraud, exactly in the same way as its "Made in Italy" sticker is a fraud. If you're claiming that made in Taiwan is just as good as made in France or elsewhere, why put Made in Italy. It's the perception that sells Pinarellos, not the quality. It's interesting that you call Time's use of the integrated seatpost a "gimmick" when that is exactly what Pinarello has based their entire pricing upon. 

When you say that Moots is "playing around", you're...well... really starting to show how little you know about technology. But that's ok. You're young and you'll learn.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

PaxRomana said:


> Claiming lugged designs are "outdated" just shows how little you understand bike technology. Lugged frames are harder to manufacture than your run-of-the mill carbon monocoque frame mass produced in the Far East. They're "outdated" because they're harder to make and harder to reproduce in mass quantities. Companies have mored their production to the Far East in order to take advantage of production on a massive scale. That's why everybody's yapping about monocoque frames. Companies sell them because they're cheap to make.
> 
> Time's manufacturing techniques are so "outdated" that BMC spent millions making a factory that builds frames like...you guessed it...Time. I am guessing you've never ridden a Time or you'd know the difference between it and your average Trek or Pinarello.
> 
> ...


Pretty interesting the the BMC IMPEC wasn't used by any of the BMC riders if they could avoid it... The team, including Cadel, very much preferred BMC's standard monocoque construction frames. 

You haven't explained why lugged carbon is so much better than monocoque, only that it is more difficult to make. Since I am so technologically naive, enlighten me on why lugged technology is so much better, as well as why frames made in Taiwan are any worse than those made in Italy. 

Moots makes great bikes that are nice boutique titanium frames that will last a lifetime if taken care of, but you cannot argue that Titanium is on the cutting edge of materials for bicycles. Ti is a niche market, and Moots makes great top of the end bikes for that market. 

Personally, I don't care where my bike is manufactured. The Pinarello is a fantastic frame for me and the way it rides is what makes me like it, not where it was manufactured.


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## SevensRacer (Dec 14, 2011)

$16K is a lot of money for just a bicycle. Sure, there will be some people buying it and I won't be against them. But for me, if I was going to buy a bike for $16k, I would rather get a Ducati or Yamaha sportbike and use the rest of the money for formal training and experience in handling a motorcycle.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Where some bikes differ from others is in the layering of the carbon fiber. Some of the more expensive models spend a little more care in strategically layering their CF weaves. This is time consuming and may warrant a bump in price... but not that high. 

As far as "cutting edge" goes.... I have the opportunity to chat quite often with some of the people behind a lot of the bikes on the market. One comment keeps coming back. A few of the industry engineers regard Cervelo as the gold standard for complex and strategic layering. I am not a Cervelo owner and you wouldn't expect an engineer from a rival company to make such a statement... but there you are. I was surprised as well.The Pinarello Dogma is a good bike, but the care taken in the layering scheme is not as complex as what you might find in Cervelo.


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

how much of that 16k is the Campy EPS gruppo? Because if I remember the dogma frameset is $5500 or so...that being said if you have 16k to blow and you love your Italian bikes do it! 

This kind of spending is definitely for those with a lot of disposable income, I certainly wouldn't tell a Ferrari driver around my part of the OC that he over paid for his car that gets him from point A to point B the same way as the $7k Kia. You cant put a price on someone's wants and desires. All this stuff about high tech this and that are just RATIONALES for spending that kind of money on a bike that you actually have to pedal to move. It's a free market economy and if they have the means I'm not going to question it. I will look admirably at their bike and smile when I drop them on my $600 steel Nashbar bike  Help our economy.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

chase196126 said:


> Pretty interesting the the BMC IMPEC wasn't used by any of the BMC riders if they could avoid it... The team, including Cadel, very much preferred BMC's standard monocoque construction frames.
> 
> You haven't explained why lugged carbon is so much better than monocoque, only that it is more difficult to make. Since I am so technologically naive, enlighten me on why lugged technology is so much better, as well as why frames made in Taiwan are any worse than those made in Italy.
> 
> ...


Lugged technology has the advantage of repair. You can send your bike back to Time in the event a tube cracks and they can replace it. You break a monocoque frame, and unless Calfee can work their magic, it's toast. Not that it really matters since they're usually just mass produced copies. Time's advantage is that they weave their own carbon. They can thus tune the ride exactly for the model by adding different types of strands. That's is why their bikes go well beyond the level that Pinarello attains.

On marketing, Pinarello is miles ahead.

BMC tried to use Time's approach using robots and, so far, they haven't succeeded in perfecting the process. Time uses people and has done this successfully for years. 

Anyway, I'm not sure what you define as "cutting edge" for bicycle materials or design. Most of them use carbon. It's relatively cheap and easy to mass produce. 

Personally, my favorite bikes have been my Times, Cannondale System Six (US Made), Moots Vamoots (US Made), Pinarello Dogma FPX (Italian), and yes, I really like the Prince as well. I would have never paid retail for it though. 

I am happy that you like your Dogma. Ultimately, the fact is you never had to make the cost-benefit analysis. I am opining as somebody who has made the cost-benefit analysis and has decided the benefits do not justify the cost by a large margin.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

PaxRomana said:


> Lugged technology has the advantage of repair. You can send your bike back to Time in the event a tube cracks and they can replace it. You break a monocoque frame, and unless Calfee can work their magic, it's toast. Not that it really matters since they're usually just mass produced copies. Time's advantage is that they weave their own carbon. They can thus tune the ride exactly for the model by adding different types of strands. That's is why their bikes go well beyond the level that Pinarello attains.
> 
> On marketing, Pinarello is miles ahead.
> 
> ...


Not disagreeing specifically with what you are saying about lugged versus monoque, but in terms of construction of the raw material (carbon sheets, lugs, tubes, etc.) leading into the construction of the final product, aren't there quite a large number of factors to consider before it is possible to compare apples-to-apples? 

For example, your citing TIME as an example of a cutting-edge manufacturer who weaves their own tubes, isn't that also because they use a different bonding process (resin infusion) than most (pre-preg)? This is hard to explain to most people, so marketing gets busy with proprietary names like 60HM1k, T800, etc etc., as if they were all unique to that frame maker. 

Anyways, just citing discussion points from other threads:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3627298-post10.html
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3627370-post11.html

And also a white paper from Calfee, covering lugged versus monocoque carbon construction:
http://www.calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/technical-white-paper/

The white paper distinguishes between Carbon Tubes/Molded Carbon Lugs, Foam-Core versus Bladder-Molded monocoque, and Carbon Tubes/Carbon Joints/Pressure Lamination. Not sure if this last one refers to tube-to-tube or not.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

chase196126 said:


> Pretty interesting the the BMC IMPEC wasn't used by any of the BMC riders if they could avoid it... The team, including Cadel, very much preferred BMC's standard monocoque construction frames.
> 
> You haven't explained why lugged carbon is so much better than monocoque, only that it is more difficult to make. Since I am so technologically naive, enlighten me on why lugged technology is so much better, as well as why frames made in Taiwan are any worse than those made in Italy.
> 
> ...


Speaking of manufacturing, Pinarello for some time had this on their website, but it appears they removed it recently. At least, I can't find it on their website anymore. 

Here's a great website CyclingIQ where I got it from. 
Princes, thieves and make-believe | Pinarello fights for its name «

The wording of the last sentence is a bit ambiguous, and may lead one to think that Toray provides "carbon for bikes" only to Pinarello - this is not true, lots of builders buy from Toray, too, just google around. But being more precise, Pinarello claims Toray provides only them with the "best carbon in the market", what ever that means.

By the way, CyclingIQ has a great article series covering the evolution of frame makers in Taiwan and the PRC. A lot of (American, Italian, etc.) companies buy not only production, but also the design of the frames that they then market. DeRosa has been outed on this board for doing this. 

Considering that nobody can argue against the fact that a vast majority of carbon material production is done in East Asia, can we still argue that "western" companies know best about carbon production? For real, Toray even provides prepreg carbon for EADS to make Airbus planes. Do you think Airbus is going to be "designing" carbon fiber and telling Toray to make it so? No way. Airbus will do the structural design based on specs (modulus, tensile strength, weight,etc.) and ask Toray to work with them to best manufacture carbon fiber that meets that spec. So who has the magic sauce for carbon fibert? Toray does. 

Sure, the "western" frame manufacturers can specify, "stiffer tubes for chainstay" but they ain't telling Toray to change the chemistry of the resin to use. As to who does the FEA, I tend to think it makes more sense for the party responsible for the monocoque production to do it, meaning the Taiwanese sub-contractor. They work more closely with the carbon provider than the marketing part of the company does.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Good posts, Orange Julius.

Interestingly, to follow up on your comment that companies even outsource their design, I think this is quite true. I ordered a few sample frames years ago from a company called Trigon (Taiwanese manufacturer). I was curious to see what they were like. I was quite impressed. Anyway, in the box came a catalog. 

The catalog showed multiple options for tube shapes, design, etc., from which a customer could choose. You could have diamond shapes, round, ISP, etc. So, essentially, they did all the design and then a company like Blue just picked what they wanted.

I am certainly not impugning the ability of Taiwanese manufacturers to make high-quality carbon bicycles. The do it quite well. However, I disagree with Chase that simply because a frame is monocoque and made in Taiwan, it is "cutting edge". Pinarello's "cutting edge" is using a polystyrene form instead of a bladder, so they claim that makes the inside look almost as good as the outside. 

They market this stuff as though it was something novel. It's not. Foam core molding has been around for a long time. Here's a discussion from Triathlete magazine from 2008.

Carbon Fiber Frame Manufacturing Techniques, Part One of a Three Part Series on Carbon Fiber | Fit Werx: Road Bike and Triathlon Bike Fitting Specialists

Colnago has been known for having the inside of the frame look nearly the same as the outside for awhile now. 

Nano-alloy? Available to anyone. Toray refers to it as "impact absorbing plastic." Toray may be cutting edge. Pinarello just uses what's available to anyone else. Of course, you don't hear them mention the word "plastic", since that doesn't sell $6000 frames with a pathetic 2 year warranty.

Asymmetric frame? Time bicycles did that with the VXRS years ago. Pinarello just promoted it as though they came up with it.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Check out this load of BS from Competitive Cyclist.

"The other advancement of note is the actual manufacturing process used for the Dogma 2. Pinarello employs a polystyrene form as a base for the initial lay-up of material during its construction. This enables a more precise method; each layer is placed exactly where it's designed to be according to the FEA testing. In this regard, it's a more reliable and consistent method than molding with an internal bladder. The use of polystyrene also results in even compaction of the laminate, with less wrinkling of the carbon material or trapped gas/resin that could cause structural weak spots over time. The form is removed with a recoverable solvent. What you'll find on the inside of the Dogma 2 is a smooth finish that nearly matches the outside."

1. It's not Pinarello that does this. It's Carbotec in Taiwan.
2. This isn't an advancement for the rest of the planet, who have been using this process for many years. Maybe it's an advancement for "cutting edge" Pinarello.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Dajianshan said:


> Where some bikes differ from others is in the layering of the carbon fiber. Some of the more expensive models spend a little more care in strategically layering their CF weaves. This is time consuming and may warrant a bump in price... but not that high.
> 
> As far as "cutting edge" goes.... I have the opportunity to chat quite often with some of the people behind a lot of the bikes on the market. One comment keeps coming back. A few of the industry engineers regard Cervelo as the gold standard for complex and strategic layering. I am not a Cervelo owner and you wouldn't expect an engineer from a rival company to make such a statement... but there you are. I was surprised as well.The Pinarello Dogma is a good bike, but the care taken in the layering scheme is not as complex as what you might find in Cervelo.


This is my issue with the entire copy cat frame debate....anyone can make a frame that looks exactly like <insert major brand here>...

Most high end frames consist of over 200 different pieces of carbon.....They are laid in a mold with different orientation, thicknesses, etc.... all of this is done to provide a certain ride characteristic..

Do these copy cat frames do the same? who knows.... Unless someone actually has seen them being produced, we will never know....

I'm not suggesting that a high end frame is worth 10x the price but it's senseless to suggest they are the same as the cheap knockoff stuff based strictly on outward appearance....just because it looks the same doesn't mean it's the same....


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Dave Hickey said:


> This is my issue with the entire copy cat frame debate....anyone can make a frame that looks exactly like <insert major brand here>...
> 
> Most high end frames consist of over 200 different pieces of carbon.....They are laid in a mold with different orientation, thicknesses, etc.... all of this is done to provide a certain ride characteristic..
> 
> ...


You are essentially correct. Copycat frames DO NOT do quite the same. They usually use cheaper carbon (T700) that requires less skill in the layup process. 

Now I am just procrastinating getting out in the freezing cold. I better get to it.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

orange_julius said:


> Here's a great website CyclingIQ where I got it from.
> Princes, thieves and make-believe | Pinarello fights for its name «


From that article _..."Representatives from Pinarello’s authorized Australian and New Zealand distributors both verified they had seen painted, and unpainted, Pinarello Prince and Dogma copies in their respective markets.

“It’s hard to pinpoint” according to Armstrong Sport, in New Zealand. “They are pretty convincing fakes. However, the headtube profiles are different, and the seatposts are round (on the fake Dogma’s).”......._

Yes, they're right!


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

WTFcyclist said:


> From that article _..."Representatives from Pinarello’s authorized Australian and New Zealand distributors both verified they had seen painted, and unpainted, Pinarello Prince and Dogma copies in their respective markets.
> 
> “It’s hard to pinpoint” according to Armstrong Sport, in New Zealand. “They are pretty convincing fakes. However, the headtube profiles are different, and the seatposts are round (on the fake Dogma’s).”......._
> 
> Yes, they're right!


Also, side-by-side photos of real and fake here.
https://forums.roadbikereview.com/3534613-post159.html

One poster, "Joe.90", claims he's ridden both. Wonder if he'll share further comments.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

orange_julius said:


> Also, side-by-side photos of real and fake here.
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3534613-post159.html
> 
> One poster, "Joe.90", claims he's ridden both. Wonder if he'll share further comments.


Actually, I remembered wrong. The poster claims he can't tell the difference. But how are we to believe him or not?

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3541626-post168.html


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

*2 of them...*

Funny thing... today I thought of this thread.

There were two Dogmas with DI2 on our ride today, one large white and one much smaller black one. Paint was really nice on the black one.

I liked my Pinarello, but it was one quarter of the cost of one of these....


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

That Chinarello DogPoo is classic. Absolute classic! Whoever thought of that is a genius.

I'd bet that if you put Chinarellos and Pinarellos up against each other in a blind test, nobody could tell the difference in ride quality. 

But hey, one's "cutting edge".


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

"If you take for example our Allez bikes, they're entry-level but these frames are stiffer than the frame that Levi Leipheimer used to win the Tour of Germany a few years ago."

I wonder how true that is.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Or really what that means... Does "stiffer" mean "better" or "faster" or "a better riding bike" or "more wins" or or or... What exactly are they trying to say? 

I mean really... 

Every model year we see the statistics on how much the new model outperforms the old ones. 13% stiffer. 6% lighter. infinity% more vertically compliant while being laterally stiffer.... This means that, hypothetically, if we continue along the same trend, in over 10 years these bikes have gotten over 100% stiffer. Are we really seeing a 100% improvement? 

Two bikes I think of as excellent riding CF race bikes of yore: Colnago C40 and Look 585. Two great riding bikes. Has "stiffness" really made newer bikes "better" than those, and made anyone a better rider? Even at the pro level the times have not improved. The fastest TdF was Lance in 1999. Didn't LeMond have the fastest TdF ITT in 1989? 

I mean REALLY!?


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Dajianshan said:


> Or really what that means... Does "stiffer" mean "better" or "faster" or "a better riding bike" or "more wins" or or or... What exactly are they trying to say?
> 
> I mean really...
> 
> ...


I think "stiffness" is not nearly precise enough. We should distinguish between "reactivity" and "harshness". The use of "stiffness" in English is similar to the use of "hot" to describe food. Is it temperature hot, or spicy hot?


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

PaxRomana said:


> Stupid stuff that people with too much money and too little taste do.
> 
> Yes. That's an Alfa Romeo. In a General Lee paint scheme.



Now that's cool. Love the color. The flag is probably just a big sticker anyway. I'd drive it. :thumbsup:


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Calling people with more money, nicer bikes, bigger houses, whatever, calling them "stupid" says more about the person doing the name-calling than anything else. 

I know a couple of people with S-class Benz's and none of them are stupid. 

This site is becoming a cesspool of jealous resentful posters. The same posters making the same post over and over again in every frikkin' thread...thank god for the ignore button.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Calling people with more money, nicer bikes, bigger houses, whatever, calling them "stupid" says more about the person doing the name-calling than anything else.


Nobody is doing that. I'm sorry that you don't understand what should be patently obvious. 

Time and Pinarello are both expensive. One is worth the price, the other is not. Nobody is saying having an expensive bike is silly. You don't know what posters are riding, so maybe you should think twice about calling others "jealous or resentful". They could be riding far more expensive bikes than you.

Paying $100k for an S-Class Benz, that's fine. What I am saying is that paying $100k for a Honda Accord, well, that's stupid.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

PaxRomana said:


> Nobody is doing that. I'm sorry that you don't understand what should be patently obvious.
> 
> Time and Pinarello are both expensive. One is worth the price, the other is not. Nobody is saying having an expensive bike is silly. You don't know what posters are riding, so maybe you should think twice about calling others "jealous or resentful". They could be riding far more expensive bikes than you.
> 
> Paying $100k for an S-Class Benz, that's fine. What I am saying is that paying $100k for a Honda Accord, well, that's stupid.


But aren't we talking here of at least a Honda Accord that is lowered, with spoilers, special paint, and logos all over it?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

orange_julius said:


> But aren't we talking here of at least a Honda Accord that is lowered, with spoilers, special paint, and logos all over it?


Absolutely. Don't forget the fuzzy dice and undercarriage lighting made of nanoalloy. In purple. Tastefully done, of course.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

I guess that means the SL4 with Dura Ace Di-2 I just ordered a silly purchase too.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

ewitz said:


> I guess that means the SL4 with Dura Ace Di-2 I just ordered a silly purchase too.


Depends on what you paid for it.


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## Leonard (Mar 5, 2010)

*The so called 'free market' system*

I'll confess, I recently bought a new (but) 2 year old FP7 frame, build up she's a beauty! I always wanted a Pinarello and now I have one.

That said, I think a point overlooked by some of the posters is that large companies will distort the market in order to increase their margins on products. Apple, Garmin, Pinarello are but a few of those who do so...simply because they can.

When the fundamental laws of supply and demand are artificially manipulated at our expense...well, then I think we should care.

Good discussion.
Leonard


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

If people were to ride the "best value" bikes for them, then most would ride $1500 bikes. But then we would not be called "enthusiasts" but "frugal value seekers" and where is the fun in that?
Lighten up people and maybe put some of this energy in making some money so you can too buy a $16k Pina and help our sucky economy recover.

To the person who made the analogy between the SL550 and the Honda, the SL550 fits more accurately the comparison you are trying to make with the Pina so you need to come up with a different example; just saying......


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

dcgriz said:


> the SL550 fits more accurately the comparison you are trying to make with the Pina so you need to come up with a different example; just saying......


Only to those who buy into the marketing hype and are too lazy to do the research. Just saying...

I say this as Pinarello and a Time owner.


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## Elpimpo (Jan 16, 2012)

WTFcyclist said:


> I'm not even sure what "60HM (High Modulus?)" means. I look at the table on this article: Sounding Tech to Sell Bikes | Argonaut Cycles
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this link.
Putting it in my toolbox.
And i always wondered why there isn't some universal standard for carbon MFG. ala 7005 aluminum, 4130 chromoly, etc etc.



On a WHOLE other note, if i was wealthy I'd probably get a Lamborghini just because.......
........and probably the most expensive bike they make, just because.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

If I was wealthy I wouldn't drive a Lamborghini, or ride a 16k bike, or live in a giant mansion, because I would feel like a serious asshat doosh tool. But hey, that's just me. Just sayin'.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

foofighter said:


> how much of that 16k is the Campy EPS gruppo? Because if I remember the dogma frameset is $5500 or so...that being said if you have 16k to blow and you love your Italian bikes do it!
> 
> This kind of spending is definitely for those with a lot of disposable income, I certainly wouldn't tell a Ferrari driver around my part of the OC that he over paid for his car that gets him from point A to point B the same way as the $7k Kia. You cant put a price on someone's wants and desires. All this stuff about high tech this and that are just RATIONALES for spending that kind of money on a bike that you actually have to pedal to move. It's a free market economy and if they have the means I'm not going to question it. I will look admirably at their bike and smile when I drop them on my $600 steel Nashbar bike  Help our economy.


Pinarello Dogma2 Di2 frame cost $6600 & Dogma2 Di2 Bob is $6900


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Seven thousand dollars for a frameset mass-produced in Taiwan. Not saying it's not a great looking frame, but that's just silly. You can get hand made custom frames for considerably less.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

PaxRomana said:


> Seven thousand dollars for a frameset mass-produced in Taiwan. Not saying it's not a great looking frame, but that's just silly. You can get hand made custom frames for considerably less.


According to Pinarello and Wrench Science, the Dogma 2 frame is Made in Italy. I do know a lot of the other frames from Pinarello are Made in Taiwan. It's the same with any other brand like Colnago, C59 & EPQ are Made in Italy, M10 and other Colnago's frames are Made in Taiwan.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

AnthonyL88 said:


> According to Pinarello and Wrench Science, the Dogma 2 frame is Made in Italy. I do know a lot of the other frames from Pinarello are Made in Taiwan. It's the same with any other brand like Colnago, C59 & EPQ are Made in Italy, M10 and other Colnago's frames are Made in Taiwan.


Dogma 2 is NOT Made in Italy. I wish people would stop these kinds of lies. Dogma 2 is made by Carbotec in Taiwan. I've been to the factory outside of Treviso. They just paint and "finish" them there. Please stop this "Pinarellos are Made in Italy" nonsense. All carbon Pinarellos are made in Taiwan. Fausto has admitted this already. It's been posted a million times. 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with made in Taiwan. They make top-notch stuff. But marketing it as "Made in Italy" is a lie. 

The Colnago C59 is indeed Made in Italy. The rest of the line are made in Asia.

Hope this FAQ clarifies this. From Pinarello's site:

"Our frames are made in Far East, where the mass production of raw frames is based. The following production phases, such as painting and assembling, are completed in Villorba, Italy, in our factory. "

CICLI PINARELLO S.p.A.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

PaxRomana said:


> Dogma 2 is NOT Made in Italy. I wish people would stop these kinds of lies. Dogma 2 is made by Carbotec in Taiwan. I've been to the factory outside of Treviso. They just paint and "finish" them there. Please stop this "Pinarellos are Made in Italy" nonsense. All carbon Pinarellos are made in Taiwan. Fausto has admitted this already. It's been posted a million times.
> 
> I am not saying there is anything wrong with made in Taiwan. They make top-notch stuff. But marketing it as "Made in Italy" is a lie.
> 
> ...


EU laws state that 60% of the 'value added' must be done in the country in order for it to be considered 'made' there. Since they pay first world salaries to paint it vs. 3rd world salaries to actually make it they can put that shiny little 'Made in Italy' sticker on there.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> EU laws state that 60% of the 'value added' must be done in the country in order for it to be considered 'made' there. Since they pay first world salaries to paint it vs. 3rd world salaries to actually make it they can put that shiny little 'Made in Italy' sticker on there.


Exactly. Hard to sell a Taiwanese-made frame for $7000 with a 2 year warranty if you don't have that fake "Made in Italy" sticker.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> EU laws state that 60% of the 'value added' must be done in the country in order for it to be considered 'made' there. Since they pay first world salaries to paint it vs. 3rd world salaries to actually make it they can put that shiny little 'Made in Italy' sticker on there.


Perhaps, they should change their marketing strategy from "sounding tech to sell bikes" to "sounding arty to sell bikes." They can hire some virtuosic painters (a kind of Michelangelo of bicycle frame painting) to hand paint their frames so that they can reclaim their Italian heritage.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

WTFcyclist said:


> Perhaps, they should change their marketing strategy from "sounding tech to sell bikes" to "sounding arty to sell bikes." They can hire some virtuosic painters (a kind of Michelangelo of bicycle frame painting) to hand paint their frames so that they can reclaim their Italian heritage.


Isn't that niche already cornered by Pegoretti? To his credit, as far as I know all Pegoretti frames are still welded/brazed in his workshop. And his hand-painted designs are certainly very unique.


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## draganM (Nov 27, 2001)

> Halo bikes cost roughly one-fifth of the average US household income – meaning they're the stuff of dreams for most. But as unattainable as those bikes seem, there are people who can and do buy them "Halo bikes are where the latest technology comes from and these are the product used by our athletes and teams," Sims told us. "Ultimately, what gets developed on the halo bikes will trickle down to the more affordable models. If you take for example our Allez bikes, they're entry-level but these frames are stiffer than the frame that Levi Leipheimer used to win the Tour of Germany a few years ago."


 Well at least something is trickling down from the enormous Bananna Republic size wealth disparity we have in the US today. Even though you probably have a crappy low paying job you can go the bike store and say" thanks to rich people this $1500. bike is better than the one used to win the tour of Germany 2 years ago."


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

draganM said:


> Well at least something is trickling down from the enormous Bananna Republic size wealth disparity we have in the US today. Even though you probably have a crappy low paying job you can go the bike store and say" thanks to rich people this $1500. bike is better than the one used to win the tour of Germany 2 years ago."


Technology almost has to trickle down in order to make the investment worth it. Money is the opposite way, the less other people have of it the more yours is worth.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

For $16.5K, I would get a BMW S1000RR!


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## marcm (Jan 28, 2012)

Scroll to the bottom of this page...


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## elviento2 (Mar 1, 2012)

I am sure many other manufacturers with similar marketing strategies (and PRICES!) are just glad Pinarello is there to take hits from the criticism! It's like the McDonald's of bikes. All the other fast food joints are as heart clogging as (or more than) McDees. 

Same here.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

marcm said:


> Scroll to the bottom of this page...


If you buy a McClaren I'm sure you could convince them to toss that frame in for free. It's just plastic after all


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

What would be the resale value of that $16.5 Dogma after a couple of years (or even just 1 year)?


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

config said:


> What would be the resale value of that $16.5 Dogma after a couple of years (or even just 1 year)?


Exactly....and what about when the new Dogma comes out?


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## bkwitche (Jun 4, 2011)

PaxRomana said:


> Exactly. Hard to sell a Taiwanese-made frame for $7000 with a 2 year warranty if you don't have that fake "Made in Italy" sticker.


So if 60% is added in Italy, that comes down to the frame being valued at $2800 out the door from Taiwan.

My question is. Does. Pinarello (or any bike company for that matter) not control the "value" of their bikes by setting their own price points? In other words, if the frame is valued 2800 out of Taiwan, they must set the price at 7000 so they can call it "Made in Italy". The value of the item seems to be an arbitrary number the manufacturer is allowed to decide, thus making the percentage of value to achieve "Made in XXXXX" absolutely meaningless.

Or maybe I'm wrong, just spitballing here.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

IMO, the only real value anything has it what somebody is willing to pay, not what something costs to produce. And what somebody is willing to pay depends on what they personally value: performance, style, cachet, exclusivity, ostentation... Of all of those, performance probably has the least influence on jacking up value.


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## SingleSpeedScott (Mar 1, 2006)

config said:


> For $16.5K, I would get a BMW S1000RR!


Now there is an example of $16500 worth of racing technology made available to the public. If you really think the Pinnie is money well invested you really are a fool. Sorry, but it's true. Bully to you if you can afford it, but I think your money could be better spent. 

It makes me laugh that anyone can think that bicycles are high tech. 

The carbon fibre technology used in frames has been available to the aerospace industry for 20 years. 

For God sakes road bicycles still use brakes that are actuated by bits of wire that clamp with a couple blocks of rubber or cork. 

Electronic shifting whoopie doo. Your whiz bang shifters are still actuating the same derailleur technology that's been around since the 1920's. 

Bicycle tyres are also a joke. Look at the tyres found on the BMW. OK you may be lucky to get 6-8000km out of them but they'll provide more cornering and braking adhesion than a cyclist could dream of, particularly in the wet. That and I bet they'll be puncture free. 

A lot of cyclists really need to have a good hard think about how they invest their money.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

looigi said:


> IMO, the only real value anything has it what somebody is willing to pay, not what something costs to produce. And what somebody is willing to pay depends on what they personally value: performance, style, cachet, exclusivity, ostentation... Of all of those, performance probably has the least influence on jacking up value.


That's exactly what drives the resale value. Now for a used item, that's minus the newness and exclusivity. So for the Dogma (for example), that just shows you what some buyers are willing to pay for "exclusivity" for a short period of time.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

With all the fake Dogma's around, the resale value is very limited. Also if at a race there is 8 fake chinese Dogma's there and you walk in with the real deal, it loses it's wow factor regardless. The value is more in the eye of the beholder vs what others think (Like most things).


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