# Keep down tube shifters?



## sprocket47 (May 12, 2010)

Fixing up my new purchase; an '89? Dave Scott Ironman Centurion Expert (purple and yellow). Since this is the vintage forum, maybe it's the wrong place to ask...but do I ditch the down tube shifters and squeeze in a 130 wheel and go with a modern group or suck it up and keep it cool? It's a great frame and I plan to ride a lot of miles - it's not just a vintage restore project for resell or to hang on the wall.

I might even give it a shot as a single speed just to see how it does on our local hills. I'm a ss mountain bike rider but ss on the road I can see as being quite different. And no, I'm not a young hipster with skinny jeans.

Thoughts for the pros or cons of keeping is au naturale vs updating it from experience, cost burden, function, awesomeness...?


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

Wow, you either have to love or hate that color scheme! Not my favorite but I do like high-visibility bikes and that one does stand out!

Doesn't your dilemma always boil down to what the bike is worth as a collector? If it is a rare, highly valued piece it would be a crime to change anything.
Would I put a Chevy V-8 in a Ferrari? It might be faster (depending on model) and more reliable and cheaper to maintain but the collector value would hit the basement.

I have no idea what your bike is worth, maybe someone here will give you an idea.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

My personal philosophy is any upgrades that make your cycling more enjoyable and are within your budget are great as long as you keep the original components and don't make any irreversible changes to the frame, e.g. cutting off derailleur hangers, cable guides, etc.

I've upgraded a couple of seventies framesets with Campy 10-s groups/Ergo shifters, and for me the cost/hassles of upgrading have been more than worthwhile in terms of greater riding enjoyment.


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## sprocket47 (May 12, 2010)

> Doesn't your dilemma always boil down to what the bike is worth as a collector? If it is a rare, highly valued piece it would be a crime to change anything.


I don't really care what's it's worth in the end. I got it for a good price and although there are people out there that would see the value it keeping it orginal, I got it because I like the frame and feel of these bikes. I guess if all else fails and I upgrade the bike and I want to sell it as original, I just put all the old parts back on.



> My personal philosophy is any upgrades that make your cycling more enjoyable and are within your budget are great as long as you keep the original components and don't make any irreversible changes to the frame, e.g. cutting off derailleur hangers, cable guides, etc.


Excellent point. If the down tube shifters or any other outdated parts for that matter, drive me nuts and it takes away from the fun of the ride, then I'll upgrade to what works for me (within my budget). Thanks for putting clarity to my question.


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## cehowardraleighGS (May 3, 2010)

IMO, that is a win-win decision. You gonna be good either way you do it. I have a 88 Expert and a 89 Master. I upgraded BOTH of the them to 130 wheels and brifters. However, I also have 3 1985 Raleigh RacingUSA series bikes, and I am keeping them all with downtube, ditto or haven't made my mind up on my 89 Cannondale Black Lightning. Definintly going with 130 wheels, but I might be keeping the DT the Black Lightning..

Here is my 88 Expert and 89 Master Before and after pics...Oh, and you do know the brifters are sweet, and the 130 wheels are lighter and IMO, look better.. 

88 Expert as I purchased it for $90 off CL










88 Expert after upgrade wheels/tires seat/Brifters.. going with Look pedals too..










89 Master, was already upgraded to brifters when it was donated to me by a friend..









89 Master upgraded with wheels, tires and seat..Dura Ace Toe Clips Pedals have been added since this picture..










Like I said, either way you go with that Miami Vice 88 Expert you are going to be a winner.. BTW, those wheels I upgraded to on my 88 Expert are $100 shipped off Ebay(I think they come in Yellow too, I think)..They are lighter than stock, aero, and IMO, push up the looks by 50% 

Luck to you...


*Dam, I just looked around and it is about 3 threads I have replied to, and they all are about the same bike!! Sorry about the reduncancy.. I am a little old, and thought this was a new thread.. *


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

My personal thought is to put a modern drivetrain on it with integrated brake/shift levers and lots of gears. More gears equal close ratio trans equal more consistent cadence.

But whichever drivetrain you put on the bike, it deserves to be more than a fixie.


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## TDC (Oct 18, 2011)

Dura Ace 7900 10 speed down tube shifters (indexed) will give you the best of both world. I have them on a 94 Colnago Super Piu. Love them.


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## sprocket47 (May 12, 2010)

> Dura Ace 7900 10 speed down tube shifters (indexed) will give you the best of both world.


I never knew there was a 10 speed down tube shifter option. I like this.

I was also considering bar end shifters, to keep the cost down. I've had a cx and a touring bike in the past with bar end shifters and really like them.

I need a knew wheelset and this is good input so I don't end up buy a 6 speed wheel only to upgrade to a 10 speed group, and new wheels again, down the road.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I agree, you make the bike yours, what makes you comfortable and the ride fun and interesting. 
I'm running an early 80's steel frame guercotti and two years ago I upgraded it to 9spd and sti shifters and just love it. 

On the cheap, have you looked at retro shifters? Not pretty but darn functional . 

Bikl


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Suck it up and keep it vintage. Of course the bike is yours you can do whatever you want to do to it, but I don't understand people taking anything vintage and bastardizing it...but that's just me. If you do change it at least keep all the original parts so someone could restore it without scrounging for parts that may be impossible to find.

Speaking of STI, I have both STI and Ergo and I can tell you from experience the fastest shifting systems I own are SIS index systems, more modern STI and Ergo aren't any faster than my friction units! 

Also keep in mind depending on how far up the ladder you go STI can be quite expensive and their mostly non repairable unlike the old friction and SIS stuff, plus friction and SIS is far less expensive to fix and their easier to maintain. Just a thought.

That is a nice bike, Centurion did have a few really nice bikes and you have one of them.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm sure that bike is stable, but, I had one bike that you had to work at to keep going in a straight line. Every time I took a hand off the handlebar to shift I would wander offline by as much as three feet in either direction. Frame and wheel alignment were fine. Brake shifters would have solved the problem for me.

The thing that I've noticed is that with brifters I tend to shift more often. With downtube shifters I tend to hold a gear for much longer before shifting.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Squidward said:


> I'm sure that bike is stable, but, I had one bike that you had to work at to keep going in a straight line. Every time I took a hand off the handlebar to shift I would wander offline by as much as three feet in either direction. Frame and wheel alignment were fine. Brake shifters would have solved the problem for me.
> 
> The thing that I've noticed is that with brifters I tend to shift more often. With downtube shifters I tend to hold a gear for much longer before shifting.


I rode with downtube for so long I just don't shift my briftors like others probably do. It's all about planning anyway, if I see a hill and my cadence begins to go down more then I want I shift regardless if it was downtube or not. But I agree most people shift more today than we use to.


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## davez26 (Nov 15, 2010)

Part of the reason that I kept the Centurion (1989 Expert), down tube shift is that I get bored. I get in a rut on my 2009 Fisher with brake shifters, and it's a nice mental break to get on the retro, with the 7spd and down tubes. 
As noted, the mental game with down shifters is much different.


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## Richardnew (Jun 2, 2013)

I bought my Raleigh because is had down tube shifters. I think they look great. It's all about that retro look. It's not bad riding either. It's just something different.









I just wish all the chrome was in better shape. Oh well a little polish won't hurt.

Richard Newton
*Bianchi Restoration Project*


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

froze said:


> But I agree most people shift more today than we use to.


Well, sure we do, we've gone from 5/6 speed freewheels to 10/11 speed cassettes. Why would we bother with a close ratio transmixer and then let our cadence drop to 60 or so when the next gear is never further than one or two teeth away. 

Six @ 13-21 compared to ten @ 12-23. My knees smile just thinking about that..


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Richardnew said:


> I bought my Raleigh because is had down tube shifters. I think they look great. It's all about that retro look. It's not bad riding either. It's just something different.
> 
> View attachment 287091
> 
> ...


You just dig that out of the ground?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Well, sure we do, we've gone from 5/6 speed freewheels to 10/11 speed cassettes. Why would we bother with a close ratio transmixer and then let our cadence drop to 60 or so when the next gear is never further than one or two teeth away.
> 
> Six @ 13-21 compared to ten @ 12-23. My knees smile just thinking about that..


And yet the average speed in the TDF from 1963 to 2013 has only increased by 3 mph...but the average distance covered has reduced by 500 miles, so in reality the only reason the average speeds have gone up is due to the miles going down. Well there goes the theory about the average cadence dropping...I forgot to mention, even as far back as 1923 the average cadence was 90 rpm...there shoots the theory of needing more gears to keep the cadence up too.

The knee thing, I give you that one, fortunately my old knees haven't cared and hopefully they never will.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

froze said:


> And yet the average speed in the TDF from 1963 to 2013 has only increased by 3 mph...but the average distance covered has reduced by 500 miles, so in reality the only reason the average speeds have gone up is due to the miles going down. Well there goes the theory about the average cadence dropping...I forgot to mention, even as far back as 1923 the average cadence was 90 rpm...there shoots the theory of needing more gears to keep the cadence up too.
> 
> The knee thing, I give you that one, fortunately my old knees haven't cared and hopefully they never will.


What does average speed have to do with average cadence? Speed is dictated by cadence and gear inches, not cadence alone. But you know that.

And average cadence can be arrived at by constantly pedaling at 90rpm or pedaling at 115rpm on the flats and 55rpm on the climbs and any other rpm's over the same period of time to the same average of 90rpm.

The average size of the box is variable.


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## Richardnew (Jun 2, 2013)

The good part is that the bike is all original. The bad part is that it needs a lot of maintenance. I think even the tires are original. 

Right now the big problem is that the aluminum stem is frozen into the steel front forks. After aluminum and steel reside together for 40 years they become one. 

Richard Newton
Bianchi Restoration Project


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## cehowardraleighGS (May 3, 2010)

Richardnew said:


> I bought my Raleigh because is had down tube shifters. I think they look great. It's all about that retro look. It's not bad riding either. It's just something different.
> 
> View attachment 287091
> 
> ...


I have about 5 Raleighs, I kept them all with DT shifters, only one has brifters..

They are LOOKERS too..


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## Richardnew (Jun 2, 2013)

They do clean up nicely.

Richard Newton


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## Richardnew (Jun 2, 2013)

I have the usual tire and wheel questions. I have 27-inch x 1 1/4 wheels. They're two different brands. The is the Dutch Grand Prix.









Is this an original wheel?

I'm thinking of Panaracer Pasela Tourgard tires. Any thoughts on tires for a Raleigh? I really want to use the gum wall tires.

Richard Newton


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

Here's my 2 cents. Downtube shifters are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed compatible. Most of my bikes are steel with downtube shifters. I admit that I would prefer my STI bike (alum) if I were racing but I raced my vintage steel Colnago with Campy C-Record (friction) and tubulars.


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## cehowardraleighGS (May 3, 2010)

JaeP said:


> Here's my 2 cents. Downtube shifters are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed compatible. Most of my bikes are steel with downtube shifters. I admit that I would prefer my STI bike (alum) if I were racing but I raced my vintage steel Colnago with Campy C-Record (friction) and tubulars.


I 100% agree. I don't race, but when I go on group rides, I am on my STIs.. However, for my commutes, and a lot of single rides, I am on my downtube.. Like you most of my bikes are downtube... Here are just a few..

85 Raleigh Prestige..










85 Raleigh Grand Prix










85 Raleigh Competition










89 Cannondale Black Lightning


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I've been riding bikes for a long time and have seen a lot of "innovations" come and go. I think brake lever ergo/sti shifting is probably the biggest positive development in bike components over the last 25 years. I started riding when downtube shifters were the only alternatives. Ergo/STI/DT shifters are just plain better. Hell, I thought index shifting was a big deal. 

Its your bike so only you know if you value having modern/better shifting, or the looks of the original retro compnents that are on it. I bought a 1996 Eddy Merckx Corsa 01 frame and fork a couple years ago. No one on ebay was bidding on it, despite it being pristine. I think the reason was that it was a repainted frame and it had a carbon fork. Both unacceptable to many Merckx purists who insist on original paint and a steel (preferably chrome) fork. I could care less, I just wanted to ride the thing. I put a modern drive train on it and have absolutely no regrets. It rides great and I think looks great.

How do you post a picture on here? Something has changed.


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## cehowardraleighGS (May 3, 2010)

pmf said:


> I've been riding bikes for a long time and have seen a lot of "innovations" come and go. I think brake lever ergo/sti shifting is probably the biggest positive development in bike components over the last 25 years. I started riding when downtube shifters were the only alternatives. Ergo/STI/DT shifters are just plain better. Hell, I thought index shifting was a big deal.
> 
> Its your bike so only you know if you value having modern/better shifting, or the looks of the original retro compnents that are on it. I bought a 1996 Eddy Merckx Corsa 01 frame and fork a couple years ago. No one on ebay was bidding on it, despite it being pristine. I think the reason was that it was a repainted frame and it had a carbon fork. Both unacceptable to many Merckx purists who insist on original paint and a steel (preferably chrome) fork. I could care less, I just wanted to ride the thing. I put a modern drive train on it and have absolutely no regrets. It rides great and I think looks great.
> 
> How do you post a picture on here? Something has changed.


I hear you... My mouth is watering over your description..

I think the they have two options to post pictures. One from a web link and the other option allows up to upload a picture right from your computer..


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> What does average speed have to do with average cadence? Speed is dictated by cadence and gear inches, not cadence alone. But you know that.
> 
> And average cadence can be arrived at by constantly pedaling at 90rpm or pedaling at 115rpm on the flats and 55rpm on the climbs and any other rpm's over the same period of time to the same average of 90rpm.
> 
> The average size of the box is variable.


The very meaning of average is a variable of course. But I did state that the average cadence since 1923 has been 90 and still that today, the average speed as only increased by 3 mph since 63. Of course it's a variable but averages is all we have to look at the overall picture of something so we can see a trend.


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## sprocket47 (May 12, 2010)

cehowardraleighGS said:


> I 100% agree. I don't race, but when I go on group rides, I am on my STIs.. However, for my commutes, and a lot of single rides, I am on my downtube.. Like you most of my bikes are downtube... Here are just a few..
> 
> 85 Raleigh Prestige..
> 
> ...


Nice collection!!! Did you keep those with the 126mm wheel 6/7 speed, or squeeze in a 130 for more gears?


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## cehowardraleighGS (May 3, 2010)

sprocket47 said:


> Nice collection!!! Did you keep those with the 126mm wheel 6/7 speed, or squeeze in a 130 for more gears?


Those 3 Raleighs have 130s on the back, even my two Ironmans, both have 130s. I went with 130s because of a lighter and better looking wheel, plus, they might even be cheaper. I don't even know if the Black Lightning is 126 in the rear or not, but I have a set of black wheels that are 130 to go on.. I was really undecided on keeping DT shifters on the Black Lightning. Those index shifters that come stock are a joy to shift, I tell you that..


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