# Shimano 11 speed to be called Dura Ace 9000



## eekase

If this is true, how soon will Sram ( have to ) follow?
Shimano Dura-Ace mechanical going 11-speed, sources confirm


----------



## Sven_Nijs

Isn't this old news? As far as SRAM is concerned, not the 2013 model year as everyone already knows what they're doing.


----------



## RK250

That's a fine looking retriever you have there eekase, and a nice list of bikes!


----------



## eekase

RK250 said:


> That's a fine looking retriever you have there eekase, and a nice list of bikes!


Thanks....she's our running partner, plus a pretty good watch dog. She is big for a female golden tho...~100lbs.


----------



## CAADEL

From past experience how long do you think will take to see an 11-speed Ultegra? 
And when it happens what is your gestimate for the average price drop in 10-speed Ultegra parts (shifters, derailleurs and brakes too)?

I'm not interested in 11-speed Ultegra. I'm just interested in cheaper 10-speed Ultegra parts!


----------



## Sven_Nijs

Two years after DA? That seems to be their typical gestation period.


----------



## hansonator69

Shimano turned it up to 11. With a power level of 9000.


----------



## Sven_Nijs

Official announcement due on 1st June 2012


----------



## MarvinK

SRAM is trying to market their new 11-speed MTB technology while downplaying 11-speed on the road. It's a little silly to watch...


----------



## Sven_Nijs

It's official!
Shimano Dura-Ace 9000 Shift your Expectations


----------



## CAADEL

Sven_Nijs said:


> It's official!
> Shimano Dura-Ace 9000 Shift your Expectations





> More powerful, controllable brakes for more bicycle types – Redesigned Dura-Ace 9000 brakes offer smoother, lighter operation with increased modulation and up to 20% more power. The new short arm brake calipers feature a new two axle symmetric pivot design that reduces friction, improves efficiency and offers 10% more power in the caliper alone. Two caliper options and multiple brake pad options will provide greater compatibility with more bicycle types and uses. The standard mounting BR-9000 caliper will be joined by a new direct mount BR-9010 caliper ideally suited for aero road bikes in addition to a new SM-CB90 in line cable adjuster that can benefit aero bikes.


The question is whether the new calipers require the same cable pull ratio like the 7900. I hope the brakes are backwards compatible.


----------



## tpallsport

9070 Di2 Flight Deck, the $20K barrier will be exceeded! Can it make a Latte?

(see the dura ace website)

Just Saying, watch Specialized slap a McLaren logo on a di2 Venge 9070 with Shimano hoops and flight deck and you have to take out a five year loan to afford it.


----------



## MarvinK

If you need to take out a 5 year loan... it's probably not the right bike for you. Someone else might make $20k per day. If you're buying a bike that costs more than you make in a week or maybe a month--you overspent.


----------



## tpallsport

Just as the $10K road bike barrier was unthinkable at one time. (I still remember that 531 tubed Super Record group Frejus that was only $575.00 back in the late 70's).

I'm still riding a DA7803 group which has 13 cogs/chainwheels as does 9000/9070. I'd love to update to at least 9000, but am better served to spend the money on attending rides and enjoying the sport throughout the season. Maybe when the 9000 prices drop after the first year, I'll look into it seriously, but a pipe dream till then.


----------



## thumper8888

MarvinK said:


> If you need to take out a 5 year loan... it's probably not the right bike for you. Someone else might make $20k per day. If you're buying a bike that costs more than you make in a week or maybe a month--you overspent.


Even as someone who rides perhaps the current poster child high prices, I have to say that at some price point, it becomes immoral to spend more.
There is no performance difference between a $6K bike and this hypothetical only for now $20k bike, and a careful shopper could pretty easily build a $2400 bike that would turn precisely the same times on any course.
I know, I know, freemarketspersonalchoiceIamanAmericandon'tgetbetweenmeandthefreakin'WalMart.... which are fre to buy what we want and when we do it creates jobs etc etc.
Or, more to the point, I think it becomes fair to at least debate whether it makes sense to drop 20k.
Shimano does seem hell bent on wringing a ton out of us. I'd have to buy three sets of wheels and three new ENTIRE groups, which ain't going to happen.
I wouldn't even do one. The notion of buying new wheels so that I can add one cog, drop three ounces is insane.
There's much talk of how wonderful the brakes are. Well, I'll buy that they are good, but some of the reviewers are suddenly finding things to criticize about 7900 brakes which have often been held up as the standard by which to measure all brakes and none of these critics had a single bad thing to so about them except that they werent cheap.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Nice rant

Shimano is not squeezing you--if your current stuff works fine, keep it. I'm keeping my 7970 for the foreseeable future. With a new cassette, chain, chainrings and brakepads every now and then it will probably last indefinitely.

But Shimano has to improve their product to remain competitive. Sink or swim, there's no such thing as treading water in today's world.


----------



## Sven_Nijs

I don't think you can really have a bash at Shimano for changing technology.
I've been around long enough to experience the changes from 5speed up to 7speed to 8/9/10/11. Most of those old upgrades required hub/wheel changes, so the fact that hasn't really been required in the last decade or more (when staying with one brand) is why there is the sudden consternation.
The price of progress has actually been less recently than in the past.


----------



## thumper8888

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Nice rant
> 
> Shimano is not squeezing you--if your current stuff works fine, keep it. I'm keeping my 7970 for the foreseeable future. With a new cassette, chain, chainrings and brakepads every now and then it will probably last indefinitely.
> 
> But Shimano has to improve their product to remain competitive. Sink or swim, there's no such thing as treading water in today's world.



I agree with all this, more or less. Certainly it's sink or swim and you have to do your R&D... it's just that there is far too much incompatibility all at once, and I can't help but feel that some of it was marketing-driven.
If they're engineers are so smart, and they appear to be, they should have been come up with SOMETHING, in one of the areas to allow at least a little compatibility. The front mech I know has issues, as I have 7900, 6700 and 7800 on different bikes and the differences are clear.
So, OK, I will buy that maybe the solution was so complex they had to hit something for pull ration in between the older standards.
Rear, well, OK, 11 cogs instead of 10 means an extra click on the shifters, so out flies compatibility there.
But for godsakes, a new wheel standard on top of those things? Campy was able to do it at current dish... and I will buy the need for freehub mod to make it work, as Campy had to do that.
But if it really requires a change to wheels, that's the one that seems most gratuitous, and given the cost of wheels, by far the hardest to swallow, partic if you are running a bad weather bike and a set of race wheels and trying to generally keep parts between bikes compatible.


----------



## thumper8888

Sven_Nijs said:


> I don't think you can really have a bash at Shimano for changing technology.
> I've been around long enough to experience the changes from 5speed up to 7speed to 8/9/10/11. Most of those old upgrades required hub/wheel changes, so the fact that hasn't really been required in the last decade or more (when staying with one brand) is why there is the sudden consternation.
> The price of progress has actually been less recently than in the past.



It's not the technology I'm bashing. Shimano to me remains the industry standard for functionality. There is no question the stuff will work and work well.
But I'm pretty sure I can have a bash at them for marketing moves. It's much like SRAM trying to claim that the new Red crank wasn't backwards compatible, when it absolutely is...except in this case it looks like Shimano 9000 actually isn't, which the possible exception of the crankset and the certain exception of the brakes....when a little more attention to engineering could have possibly prevented some of th emismatching, if that had been a priority. But it wasn't, apparently.
It's just too much stuff, what feels like a critical mass, of stuff you have to swap to buy your way in.
But no, Shimano doesn't make many mistakes in function. The worst I can cite is the front shifting of the 7900, and it's actually fine for all practical purposes, just feels a bit sluggish.


----------



## Scott in MD

Ultegra 6600 on my 2008 Tarmac .... glad I waited through 6700 & 7900 .... Maybe I'll jump or mayble I'll just wait for 135mm 2X12.....


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Maybe it is backwards compatible.

TECH NEWS: FIRST LOOK: 2013 SHIMANO DURA-ACE

All kinds of stuff comes out that makers say is not compatible. And then it turns out to work fine. We'll see.


----------



## philbennett

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Maybe it is backwards compatible.
> 
> TECH NEWS: FIRST LOOK: 2013 SHIMANO DURA-ACE
> 
> All kinds of stuff comes out that makers say is not compatible. And then it turns out to work fine. We'll see.


It seems pretty clear the shifting wont be compatible with anything they have ever built. essentially a third ratio after the two recent standards.
The question in my mind is whether there is enough wiggle room with the freehubs that some wheel manufacturers will be able to make the cassette work with more current wheels. It seems like it surely will be very very close, enough that some may make it and some may not.


----------



## gofast2wheeler

Still ugly in my eyes. Silver should come back, more elegant. Worst thing Campy did making black hubs and carbon fiber components. Carbon fiber better than black, but all silver rules. Shimano has never made good looking components.


----------



## crank1979

Having seen it in real life last night the new 9000 DA groupset is very nice. The crankset had grown on me since first seeing it online, but in the flesh it is a beautiful piece of work. The only disappointing thing for me was the 9070 groupset not being available to check out. The mechanical lever feel is very nice with a light action for shifting, based on a bike stand test.


----------



## CliveDS

Got a chance to test ride the new group this week. Will post a at length review on my blog in a few days but for now. 

Rear Shifting: Much the same as 7900 and no noticeable draw back to the 11th gear. ie the chain still finds it's cog perfectly. 

Front Shifting: Best I have ever ridden by miles. The new SRAM not even close. It was an exhilarating feeling when I did the first up shift. Smooth and flawless I could make front chain ring shifts out of the saddle. Was surprised it still has the trim function but at least it's a little easier to use than before. 

Cross Chaining: Smooth and silent even when using 53 and 25 "top cog on cassette" 


Braking: Was expecting more, it's maybe better than the 7900 "which was super solid" and might even be a little spongy. No noticeable improvement and maybe the extra power a wash with the spongy feeling.

Crank stiffness and chain smoothness: same. 

Ergonimics: Shifters feel marvelous, this is a nice improvement on the 7900 and Di2 levers and the dual compound rubber is a nice touch. 

Overall: It's typical Shimano. understated yet flawless.


----------



## Sven_Nijs

*Thanks*

Excellent mini-review Clive :thumbsup:


----------



## MarvinK

Doesn't seem like offering a different chainring size (which was already available after-market) on a $2000 group of parts should make it worth all the fuss. Good to hear both SRAM & Shimano have dramatically improved their front shifting.


----------



## BlackKnight

And, curious how it compares to the Campy Super Record EPS? Other than cost, of course. The DA 9070 is delayed until October 18th at the earliest as of today. Have a chance to otherwise go with the Campy. Recommendations?


----------



## Sven_Nijs

BlackKnight said:


> The DA 9070 is delayed until October 18th at the earliest as of today.


Is that really a 'delay'? Ultegra Di2 wasn't "available" until at least October 2011 and even then some parts weren't (i.e. cables). It will mostly be OEM sets for major bike companies that are available.


----------



## BlackKnight

It is a delay from Trek, but maybe not from Shimano. Trek promised it first a few weeks ago and then on August 28th knowing the issue. Now, October 18th. It is not Shimano that has me irritated. It is Trek for essentially not being truthful. Now, I am trying to decide to go with the Campy to get it sooner since that is available now. The bike is finished at Trek just waiting on the group set.


----------



## cwdzoot

BlackKnight said:


> And, curious how it compares to the Campy Super Record EPS? Other than cost, of course. The DA 9070 is delayed until October 18th at the earliest as of today. Have a chance to otherwise go with the Campy. Recommendations?


I got to ride these two groups back to back in the same frame so have a pretty good feel for the difference. 

SR EPS is a little slower than I had expected, the shifting is flawless but it's not as dramatic as the original Di2. Campy however shifted the best on the rear and Shimano best in the front. 

Personally I think it's more a choice of which style and look you prefer it's not a choice of which performs better. Both are more than exceed even the most demanding rider. 

On a Pinarello EPS is just magical. Maybe on one of the more generic bikes like Specialized or Trek Shimano is better suited.


----------



## alias33

wait is the 11 speed cassette only compatable with shimano wheels and mavic? I thought it was just shimano compatable due to spacing?


----------



## CliveDS

alias33 said:


> wait is the 11 speed cassette only compatable with shimano wheels and mavic? I thought it was just shimano compatable due to spacing?


To accommodate the 11 speed Shimano cassette the free-hub has to be 2mm longer than a 10 speed free-hub. 

New Shimano, Zipp, Chris King, DT Swiss and presumably all other manufacturers will be compatible. 

Mavic however requires no change because the current model free-hubs are already long enough. This is why you always need to use the alloy spacer Mavic supplies when you use them with 10 Speed Shimano and SRAM.


----------



## aclinjury

CliveDS said:


> To accommodate the 11 speed Shimano cassette the free-hub has to be 2mm longer than a 10 speed free-hub.
> 
> New Shimano, Zipp, Chris King, DT Swiss and presumably all other manufacturers will be compatible.
> 
> Mavic however requires no change because the current model free-hubs are already long enough. This is why you always need to use the alloy spacer Mavic supplies when you use them with 10 Speed Shimano and SRAM.


So why did Mavic make their hubs longer to begin with?? did they foresee this day?


----------



## cwdzoot

No Mavic were just lucky this time. They have a longer Shimano spline freehub to accommodate there own cassettes that it not very popular anymore. Some years back they offered Shimano spline cassettes with Campagnolo 10 speed spacing "which is the same width as the new Shimano"


----------



## Sven_Nijs

Video: New Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 9070 Multi-Shift in Action, Plus Pics & Rumors! - Bike Rumor


----------



## happynicky

cliveds said:


> got a chance to test ride the new group this week. Will post a at length review on my blog in a few days but for now.
> 
> Rear shifting: Much the same as 7900 and no noticeable draw back to the 11th gear. Ie the chain still finds it's cog perfectly.
> 
> Front shifting: Best i have ever ridden by miles. The new sram not even close. It was an exhilarating feeling when i did the first up shift. Smooth and flawless i could make front chain ring shifts out of the saddle. Was surprised it still has the trim function but at least it's a little easier to use than before.
> 
> Cross chaining: Smooth and silent even when using 53 and 25 "top cog on cassette"
> 
> 
> braking: Was expecting more, it's maybe better than the 7900 "which was super solid" and might even be a little spongy. No noticeable improvement and maybe the extra power a wash with the spongy feeling.
> 
> Crank stiffness and chain smoothness: Same.
> 
> Ergonimics: Shifters feel marvelous, this is a nice improvement on the 7900 and di2 levers and the dual compound rubber is a nice touch.
> 
> Overall: It's typical shimano. Understated yet flawless.
> 
> 
> 
> cooooooooooooooooooooool~~~


----------



## Sven_Nijs

Dura-Ace Di2 9070 11-speed on Cancellara's Trek Domane - YouTube


----------



## goodboyr

I wonder if the third connection at the shifters that's designated for the sprint shifter connection is a "dumb" connection. In other words could the sprint shifters be the only components without the builtin chip? Then we could do the same type of hacking we do for the 10 speed dura ace di2 and used regular buttons.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Cancellara didn't like the 7970 electronic and used the mechanical DA instead. Will he use it in actual racing?


----------



## Sven_Nijs

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Cancellara didn't like the 7970 electronic and used the mechanical DA instead. Will he use it in actual racing?


In the video the Shimano rep seems to infer that he didn't use 7970 because it would only shift 'one click = one sprocket' at a time. 9070 has fully programmable MultiShift (as does Ultegra Di2 now too) so that is no longer a problem.


----------

