# Tubeless conversion - Grifo/Fango clinchers?



## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Has anyone successfully attempted to convert to tubeless either of the Challenge clincher treads? Grifo or Fango? If so, how do they hold up.


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## cliff (Sep 23, 2004)

Wow, this would be interesting, although the sidewall is pretty flacid. I think it would take a lot of sealant to seal it up and would require more psi to maintain shape (to avoid the squirm). I think the Challenge is best with a tube, but may try your suggestion just to see if my hypothesis is correct. The Challenge tires are really best as tubulars on the right type of race course! I'll talk to Andrew and see if we can get this into CXmagazine!


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## elmar schrauth (Feb 19, 2007)

i wouldnt try with most rims .
only if you have old rims friom sun or matrix i would .these ones are" bigger " and the tire has a very tight fit .


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Some locals tried it last year and I don't think anyone got them to work reliably. IIRC the issue was that the sidewalls are too porous.

They all switched to tubulars.


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

I agree with Elmar. They fit pretty lously on most rims. I rolled a fango bead off an OP (with tubes) this fall on a choppy off-camber section. I was kind of pushing it on the lower pressure side, but still I wouldn't risk it.


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## bcroteau (Aug 23, 2006)

I attempted to do this with a set of Kysrium Elites with a crossmax valve stem. It held the bead, but was losing air quickly. After a couple of minutes I noticed an air bubble forming under the black tread rubber. It quickly ballooned out and popped before I could deflate the tire. I think air would get between the cloth layers. You could probably do it, but I think it would take too much Stan's to make it beneficial. 

I've run the grifo clinchers for two season, and I haven't pinched a tube yet. I typically ride them between 30-35psi, and I weight 180. So I don't really see a need.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

The question that begs to be asked is WHY?


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

Kram said:


> The question that begs to be asked is WHY?


I'd say the same about the Challenge clinchers in general. Nice tires, but at that price why bother with clinchers?


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Kram said:


> The question that begs to be asked is WHY?


Good point. I wouldn't go to the trouble personally, but was curious if others had given it a shot. I was suspecting that the sidewalls would be more porous, and the bead would not hold as good. But, who knows?

Some said above that the bead was tight. So, to me, that means it's possible to seat them up tight w/ the Stans rubber strips (or a Notubes 29er rim). Whether the sealant would close them up inside, that is the concern. Sounds like maybe it doesn't work so well due to porosity of the casing.

Mainly, I was looking at it as a way to experiment w/ the Fango tread. 

I'm not convinced I'd be better off gluing up a pair of those vs. the grifos on my tubular wheels. For mud, I am more intrigued by the Tufo Cubus. My intuition about what is good in the mud doesn't match up w/ the Fango tread for some reason. And I am skeptical of new tread patterns that are equally priced as their companion, yet wear faster (that is a rumour I have heard, not first hand experience)


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

If you have the wheels and tires and want to experiment, maybe you can "paint" the inside of the casing with sealant before mounting it so you can get good coverage without using a ton of sealant in the final set-up.

Aquaseal-ing the outside might also help.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

If just for trying the tread to decide if you want to spring for the tubulars, why not just run the clinchers with tubes for now? Latex tubes will have them riding as nice as tubeless, probably, if not as pinch resistant.


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## rockstarracing (Jul 23, 2007)

im going to try this, using stans 29er rims or the newer, 29er/cross rim from Stans when its out. will paint the inside of the casing with stans to help seal ( i have even read using PVA glue will help)......

But if this has been done, and ended up with an epic fail, please can someone let me know before i try!

Ive missed the entire 'cross season due to illness and injury, but there is a summer 'cross series here in the north of england im going to race, like to get set up for then...


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## bcroteau (Aug 23, 2006)

Don't even bother, it's been attempted with failing results. The fango/grifos out there have a cloth casing which make it realy difficult to seal. Not to mention the fact that I can roll the clinchers at 30psi if I want to. You would have to put so much Stan's in the tire to seal them up that it would basically nullify any benefits. 

Challenge however is coming out with a lower pricepoint grifo clincher this year. It is machine made so it will have a rubber sidewall that should be able to be Stanz'd. But yuo also give up the cloth casing, which gives the tire it's suppleness. 

Personally, I think you should just go tubular. I've seen enough rolled cross tubuless wheels in the last two year. Tubeless technology still has a long way to go in the cross world.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*it will never get where it needs to be*



bcroteau said:


> Don't even bother, it's been attempted with failing results. The fango/grifos out there have a cloth casing which make it realy difficult to seal. Not to mention the fact that I can roll the clinchers at 30psi if I want to. You would have to put so much Stan's in the tire to seal them up that it would basically nullify any benefits.
> 
> Challenge however is coming out with a lower pricepoint grifo clincher this year. It is machine made so it will have a rubber sidewall that should be able to be Stanz'd. But yuo also give up the cloth casing, which gives the tire it's suppleness.
> 
> Personally, I think you should just go tubular. I've seen enough rolled cross tubuless wheels in the last two year. Tubeless technology still has a long way to go in the cross world.


what makes a tubular so awesome is the supple sidewalls

what makes a tubeless stay on is stiff sidewalls


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## rockstarracing (Jul 23, 2007)

point taken. will have to look at something else, was hoping to just have one set of race wheels and be able to change the tires for different conditions, using the suppleness of the griffo tire range.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*as you are probably aware*

I'm one of the tubular devotees on this forum
and again in all honestly I have 7 and a half pairs of Tub wheelsets and most were had for under $200 a pair, some under $300
I've never paid $400 for a wheelset
you can buy New 32 H 3x Ultegra / Reflex for $275 (1700 to 1626 grams depending on spokes) 
200 grams heavier than stans at 1/3rd the price, (but with tires will still be lighter or close to the tubeless)
spend 140 more bucks ($415 - still under half) for DA Hubs and you are at 1531 grams
spend $310 more ($585 for DT 240s around 1400 grams)
oh and all of these at 32h 3x wiull be more durable
so of you shop smart you can get 2 sets of tub wheelsets for cheaper than a single and then have your choice of tires or mix and match


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*oh and I gotta take some pix*

you would really not believe the crap I ride my tubs over
actually there is an old post somewhere where I did poast some pix


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*these are 4 years old*

they are much worse now
after the heavy rains we've had of late MUCH worse
I'm still riding these on the same tires. 4 years later, beat up, worn re-glued, drying out
rear has sealant added

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=746195&page=3


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> they are much worse now
> after the heavy rains we've had of late MUCH worse
> I'm still riding these on the same tires. 4 years later, beat up, worn re-glued, drying out
> rear has sealant added
> ...



That isn't anything my tubeless set-up couldn't handle with ease. Just saying


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*oh I'm well aware*



88 rex said:


> That isn't anything my tubeless set-up couldn't handle with ease. Just saying


of that, what I'm saying is I ride this stuff weekly on tubulars where most folks wouldn't dream of it

and again because of the more supple sidewalls I can run lower psi and get better performance from them


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

That terrain looks perfect for Tufos or a Challenge Grifo. Too nasty for Dugast/FMB, but rough enough that you'll benefit a ton from tubulars at low pressures.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*the terrain*



jmoote said:


> That terrain looks perfect for Tufos or a Challenge Grifo. Too nasty for Dugast/FMB, but rough enough that you'll benefit a ton from tubulars at low pressures.


is typically too rough even for Grifos (or the more expensive tufos). Lots of those river stones are broken and have a sharp edge and the exposed roots/stumps will tear right through the sidewall. I have found that the cheap tufos provide an improved ride without me thinking too hard about sidewall damage. We ride this stuff fast and if you are so concerned with picking a line to protect ones tires you slow down.

finally the point being, this terrain is worse than most gravel roads and as I said, my tires are going on 3 or 4 years old.


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