# Latex Tubes?



## doogiepa (Dec 2, 2008)

OK, I got a new set of wheels for next season, Williams 38 clinchers.

And I am a firm believer in the Conti 4000s tire, so that's a done deal.

But what about tubes? I have always used butyl tubes but have heard that latex tubes feel better and decrease rolling resistance, etc. 

I suppose the correct answer is "try them and see for yourself" but I am curious to hear if folks have tried/compared latex to lightweight butyl tubes, is there really any benefit in performance or feel?

I know they lose air faster but I am neurotic and pump my tires up before each ride, so that's not a big deal.

BTW these are for fast club rides which can be somewhat competitive, but not any real racing.

Doug


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## johnnydm (Mar 11, 2010)

*New Latex "Tubes" user*

Iam a true believer in latex tubing. I have been using Vittoria latex tubings for the last 6 months and well over a 1000kms on them. 
From my experience they add a more comfortable ride. Iam not sure on speed advantage. I ran them with my Veloflex Corsa tires for the Levi Gran Fono back in October (the 100 mile). That was an amazing combination of tires and tubes. They were fast and very comfortable. You do have to pump them up after every ride because I notice well over 10 psi lost in a couple of days. No big deal. Make sure you apply some talc to the tires before mounting them. 

They can run you $20 canadian per tube but so far no flats with them. Probably the best deal is to order a few from PBK or Wiggle.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I tried them once after reading reports from people about what a great ride they gave. I couldn't tell any difference at all. They didn't last very long either. Think about it. Its an inner tube. How can it make any difference? Of course people swear they feel a difference in carbon versus aluminum seat posts too . Tires I can kind of see, but inner tubes?

Its a princess and the pea phenomenum, but you might as well try it. As far as bike stuff goes, its cheap. You can't really call yourself a bike pervert without spending (i.e., blowing) money on trivial improvements. Hey, I once "upgraded" the pulleys on my rear derailer :idea:


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I ran latex tubes for a while. And yes, they gave me a slightly better ride, and they were pretty flat resistant, too. (I mostly used an oddball French brand that is no longer available.) But then, after putting on a Specialized butyl tube I kept as a spare, I realized that within a couple minutes or so, any perceived differences melted away.

That being said, I do find qualitative differences among the tube brands. Of course, it's all probably the luck of the draw, but I've never had any luck with Bontrager. They actually did make my bicycle ride more roughly, and they've never lasted very long for me, either. Michelins work fine for me. But I've had surprising luck with Specialized.


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## johnnydm (Mar 11, 2010)

*How are the Williams wheels going?*

Hi, forgot to mention how are the Williams wheels? Iam not sure if you had a chance to ride them but would love to hear how they work out for you. Iam planning a new wheelset for this year and it was one of my favorites.
thanks


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## doogiepa (Dec 2, 2008)

johnnydm said:


> Hi, forgot to mention how are the Williams wheels? Iam not sure if you had a chance to ride them but would love to hear how they work out for you. Iam planning a new wheelset for this year and it was one of my favorites.
> thanks


I have not ridden them yet. With the crappy weather in the northeast I seriously don't think I will be using them for a few months (I am using my current setup for foul weather).

That being said the wheels LOOK good and have been very favorably reviewed by many, some of whose opinion I highly value.


Back to latex tubes, I may actually try them but if they flat can you use a regular patch kit to repair them??


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

doogiepa said:


> Back to latex tubes, I may actually try them but if they flat can you use a regular patch kit to repair them??


 Regular patch kits always worked fine on the latex for me.


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## mattotoole (Jan 3, 2008)

Princess and the pea indeed. According to tests they give you a teeny bit less rolling resistance (nothing that you could ever feel). They supposedly resist pinch flats better, which made them popular with mountain bikers. I could never tell a difference.

The biggest difference you'll see is having to pump your tires every day.

They patch fine with regular patch kits, or peel and stick.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

removing my standard tube, applying baby powder, and reinstalling it gave me a better ride.. 

If guys are removing dry tubes and replacing them with new, well powdered latex tubes.. Im inclined to think a lot of the feel is coming from the powder.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

I am running them in my wheels with some new Vittoria Open Pave EVO PAVE CG tires. It's too soon to tell you if I can feel the difference and anyway the only real way I could is to try them in some tires I was already running, which I'm not.
All I can say is that my setup now (as listed above) is the nicest riding set of tires I have ever ridden. better than my Hutchinson Tubeless, almost on par with a set of tubulars I ran for a while. Can't say if it's the tube, or the tire or both. I was running Conty GS 4000s tires with standard butyl tubes before.


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## mattotoole (Jan 3, 2008)

martinrjensen said:


> I am running them in my wheels with some new Vittoria Open Pave EVO PAVE CG tires. It's too soon to tell you if I can feel the difference and anyway the only real way I could is to try them in some tires I was already running, which I'm not.
> All I can say is that my setup now (as listed above) is the nicest riding set of tires I have ever ridden. better than my Hutchinson Tubeless, almost on par with a set of tubulars I ran for a while. Can't say if it's the tube, or the tire or both. I was running Conty GS 4000s tires with standard butyl tubes before.


Glad you like the Vittorias - they're probably my favorite too. I had great luck with the Pave and the old CX TT, which was similar. I'd still buy them if they weren't so expensive and hard to find (in the US).


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

All the real tests say they are faster by a wee bit. Ride feel, I don't know. 

Twice I've found those little wires stuck in my tire well past the inner casing wall, and the latex tube did not puncture. Once hit a pothole hard enough to dent both rims, but the tubes were fine. They do however require a good rim bed (no gaps!), and it is easier to get them stuck under the bead if you aren't careful.

They are very easy to patch with rubber cement. If you cut up an old latex tube to make patches, they are even better. Latex is more porous to the solvent so the glue dries quicker. 

The light ones seem to creep over time and I've gotten a couple small spontaneous holes from this. They don't last forever.


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## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

I used Latex this last season and was pretty happy. They are a PAIN IN THE BUTT to install, but they ride a good bit smoother than the butyl I was using. I always carried a butyl as my spare incase of a flat because latex tubes can be iffy during installation and I would prefer to just fix a flat asap while out riding.


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## fazzman (Mar 12, 2008)

I run the michelin latex air comp tubes with veloflex master 22 tires. The bike rides great. I had a couple flats but thats because the veloflex tires dont have a lot of protection built in. Thats fine with me because i want a smooth fast rolling tire. I use the 18mm-20mm size. They work fine and install is easy. Dont forget to talc the tube and tire before mounting. The 18-23 is baggy and hard to stuff all that tube into the tire. Getting my williams 38 clinchers in monday. Carbon hoops, latex tubes, and veloflex tires should net me a superb ride. I dont think you would notice much of a difference in the latex ride with the 4000s tires. They ride good but are a pretty stuff tire. If anything you will save a few grams and puncture resistance.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Baby powder and the cheapest light tubes I can get my hands on... Smooth enough for me. I'd rather save a little money on tubes and put it towards something that is 100% guaranteed to give me more comfort. Like better bibs etc.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

I ride latex in every wheelset*. If you put latex in a GOOD, high tpi tire, there is an appreciable difference in ride quality. If you are putting latex in a $25 tire you got from Performance, then you're missing the point.

As for flats, I've had fewer than with butyl, simply because the latex deforms a bit more when you hit a hole. They are no harder to install than any other tube either. Just put a small bit of air in them so they retain shape and it's not an issue.
Blaming a tube for an installation issue is a sign of someone who shouldn't be installing their own tubes...

*Vitt Open Pave tires/Veloflex Master tires/Vitt OC CX tires

And as a final...
I ride Michelin latex with Vitt OC CX 320tpi tires on my Williams carbon clinchers. It's a fast set-up that rides very well!


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> I ride latex in every wheelset*. If you put latex in a GOOD, high tpi tire, there is an appreciable difference in ride quality. If you are putting latex in a $25 tire you got from Performance, then you're missing the point.
> 
> As for flats, I've had fewer than with butyl, simply because the latex deforms a bit more when you hit a hole. They are no harder to install than any other tube either. Just put a small bit of air in them so they retain shape and it's not an issue.
> Blaming a tube for an installation issue is a sign of someone who shouldn't be installing their own tubes...
> ...


If latex tubes are all you ride, how can you attribute them as resulting in an improvement over butyl? Ever done a blind test, or are they better because they cost more? I bet that if I sneaked into your house and swapped your latex tubes for cheap Performance butyl tubes you'd never be able to tell the difference.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

Ran latex for a while, one of my wheelset may have a tube but i forgot which one. Better solution is to run Conti supersonic 50g tubes well talced. that and a sub200g rear tire and Conti supersonic as a front tire.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

Nothing is 100% gauranteed except death. A really good tube/tire combination can make a noticable difference in ride quality (or feel). whether or not it's important "to you" is a personal opinion


ZoSoSwiM said:


> Baby powder and the cheapest light tubes I can get my hands on... Smooth enough for me. I'd rather save a little money on tubes and put it towards something that is 100% guaranteed to give me more comfort. Like better bibs etc.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

pmf said:


> If latex tubes are all you ride, how can you attribute them as resulting in an improvement over butyl? Ever done a blind test, or are they better because they cost more? I bet that if I sneaked into your house and swapped your latex tubes for cheap Performance butyl tubes you'd never be able to tell the difference.



Reading is fundamental...
They are, indeed, all I ride, but I've ridden butyl tubes in the past 20+ years of riding. And yes, knower of all things, if you put butyl tubes into my carbon wheelset, I would be able to tell the difference, as it's appreciable @ 120psi with good tires.
I liken the ride quality to that of a superior tubular.

Have YOU even ridden latex, or are you like the rest of the know-it-all posers on here who crap on things, even though they never used the product?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I'm a big fan of latex tubes, and use Michelin brand. 

Just to make sure I wasn't perceiving something that wasn't there, I put ultralight racing butyl tubes into a set of identical rims using identical tires then put those on the same bike. This is what I felt testing like this: According to wattage tests done by independent labs there is a wattage usage decrease going to latex, see: http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf I could not feel any difference in the wattage, people that say they can I have a hard time believing. 

However I did notice that was the ride felt better with latex, more subtle then butyl; in fact to get the ride to feel similar I discovered I had to reduce the PSI by about 30 pounds with butyl tubes! In other words, latex ride quality felt like butyl at 70psi while riding with 100psi in the latex. It may be due to this plusher ride that tires will handle better? I'm not sure if there are any test to prove that though.

Flat resistance is another difficult thing to judge, I haven't notice them to be any more or less susceptible to flats then butyl. Latex shows a commercial in mags with a piece of sharp glass and the latex tube is stretched tight and the tube won't puncture, but butyl just rips. That's all smoke and mirrors. A latex tube is not sitting in your tire uninflated, it's inflated just as butyl is thus there is no room for it to stretch to allow glass to strike it and not penetrate, so it will puncture. If you do flat with latex nothing special needs to be done that you don't do with butyl. I use Park glueless patches on latex tubes with not problems whatsoever; just clean any powder off with an alcohol pad, buff lightly, apply patch.

The only problem with latex is pumping them up everyday, but when I used ultralight butyl tubes I had to pump those up every day too, so what? Gee with the butyl I only had to pump in 10psi instead of 25 with latex? Who cares? You still have to hook up the pump and exert energy everyday, what's another 15psi if your already going through the hassle anyway? 

Mich latex tubes come pre-powdered, but really, you can't feel powdered tubes vs non-powdered while riding. I like to powder my tubes because they slide into position faster.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

Last season I use latex tubes with Michelin Pro 3 race tires. Over the 4000 plus miles I had one flat, which was cause by riding over a steel deck bridge, cut the tire & tube. The other was the tube valve core didn't seal in the valve stem, a tube problem. I'm new to this sport.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

*a note on punctures ...*

Be aware that latex tubes, when they do puncture, lose air much faster than a butyl tube. It surprised me the first time I punctured latex.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I use to use latex tubes many years ago for a long time, then switched to butyl and used those for many years, then went back to latex (actually I have just two bikes with latex the rest will remain butyl) and I've never noticed any difference in how a latex or butyl tube loses air when punctured.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

froze said:


> I use to use latex tubes many years ago for a long time, then switched to butyl and used those for many years, then went back to latex (actually I have just two bikes with latex the rest will remain butyl) and I've never noticed any difference in how a latex or butyl tube loses air when punctured.


let's agree to disagree ;-)

My experience is with recent model Michelin A1 butyl ultra light & Michelin latex tubes, generally with Vittoria Open Corsa (320 TPI) tires.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tom_h said:


> let's agree to disagree ;-)
> 
> My experience is with recent model Michelin A1 butyl ultra light & Michelin latex tubes, generally with Vittoria Open Corsa (320 TPI) tires.


I use the Michelin brand latex, those are a bit thicker then some of the racing latex, maybe the thinner ones flat faster. I know when I use to run tubulars, which used a thin latex tube, those would flat faster then when I switched to butyl. But that switch was done in the early 80's, and I didn't use ultralight butyl, today I use Specialized Turbo Ultralight butyl which is even lighter then the Mich latex I use; when either of those flat I can't tell the difference, both flat within a matter of a second or two.

There's a lot of BS fables when it comes concerning latex, like either they can't be patched or need to be treated differently when patching, and that's pure bull. People argue you have to fill them with air everyday, well unless your using thicker then normal road butyl tubes you have to fill those to every day! Difference is with latex you will put 25 pounds of air in vs 10 with the Specialized Turbo's; but either way you have to take the time and top of the tubes, so whats the big deal spending an additional 15 seconds to put in 15 pounds of air?

All in all in my racing bikes I have gladly accepted the smoother ride of latex along with whatever hassles, which I regard as minimum, then to use butyl. But price of latex is also a consideration, so their only used in the hardest riding bikes.

Now a side note; has anyone ever used the Panaracer Greenlite Urethene Tubes? What do you think of those? I've heard glueless patches work, is this true? Has anyone ever done a comparison with other types of tubes?

It appears that Panaracer may no longer be making the Greenlite and are now making a tube called the R'Air which they really don't explain what the tube is made of.


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## doogiepa (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback. 

I am probably going to bite the bullet and try some latex for my Williams wheels, even if it is partly placebo....


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## royd (Dec 15, 2008)

Where do you find latex tubes for 60mm rims? I will need 80mm valves.

Thank you


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## doogiepa (Dec 2, 2008)

Good question, in my looking around for latex tubes I have not seen ones with valves longer than 60mm, if that is the case you may have to use an extender.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Check the Euro sites. PBK and Chain Reaction usually have latex tubes of all stem lengths...


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> Reading is fundamental...
> They are, indeed, all I ride, but I've ridden butyl tubes in the past 20+ years of riding. And yes, knower of all things, if you put butyl tubes into my carbon wheelset, I would be able to tell the difference, as it's appreciable @ 120psi with good tires.
> I liken the ride quality to that of a superior tubular.
> 
> Have YOU even ridden latex, or are you like the rest of the know-it-all posers on here who crap on things, even though they never used the product?


Wow. You've got me. I am just a poser. I don't even have a carbon wheelset. And they don't make 24" latex tubes that fit my Huffy. Maybe some day I will rise to your level. And you can be sure my carbon wheels will have latex tubes on them. I'm going to get a carbon seat post as well. I can't wait. :yesnod:


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

pmf said:


> Wow. You've got me. I am just a poser. I don't even have a carbon wheelset. And they don't make 24" latex tubes that fit my Huffy. Maybe some day I will rise to your level. And you can be sure my carbon wheels will have latex tubes on them. I'm going to get a carbon seat post as well. I can't wait. :yesnod:


Wee are we having fun yet? Your not a poser, I don't have a carbon wheelset either and nor will I ever buy one, something about paying $2,500 or more for a wheelset and only gain maybe 1 to 3 watts over a IRD Cadence wheelset for $600 (or less depending on spokes); and the IRD will last far longer without fear of the carbon breaking and sending you sprawling on the pavement destroying the wheel, your bike and you. Weight wise a 1400 gram Carbon will be about 400 grams lighter then the IRD's which is about 200 grams per wheel which is only 7 ounces per wheel, not sure if 14 ounces is worth $1900, but to each their own! Those comments should piss off old BackintheSaddle, can't wait for the fireworks to begin because I like to watch fireworks.

But I do like the feel of latex, they are expensive, but when riding on stiff racing frames it makes them feel like your riding on butyl pumped to about 70psi instead of the 110 your really at; that's really the only reason I buy them, and I only use them in the stiffer riding bikes, couple of my lessor stiff road bikes I use ultralight 65grm butyl tubes and on my touring bikes run thorn resistant butyl. Expensive is a relative term, the Michelin latex cost $14 per tube, and the Specialized Turbo butyl cost $10, and the Kenda thorn tubes cost about $8; so really there's no more then $6 between cheaper butyl and latex tubes.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

pmf said:


> Wow. You've got me. I am just a poser. I don't even have a carbon wheelset. And they don't make 24" latex tubes that fit my Huffy. Maybe some day I will rise to your level. And you can be sure my carbon wheels will have latex tubes on them. I'm going to get a carbon seat post as well. I can't wait. :yesnod:


For all of the attempted smart-assery on your part, that took two days BTW, you still didn't answer the pressing question. Have you ridden latex tubes, or are you crapping on them anyway?

I never cast any aspersions as to your ability level, nor did I call you a poser. 

If you have actual experience with a product, by all means, throw in your two cents. If not, keep your fingers away from the keyboard...:thumbsup:


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> For all of the attempted smart-assery on your part, that took two days BTW, you still didn't answer the pressing question. Have you ridden latex tubes, or are you crapping on them anyway?
> 
> I never cast any aspersions as to your ability level, nor did I call you a poser.
> 
> If you have actual experience with a product, by all means, throw in your two cents. If not, keep your fingers away from the keyboard...:thumbsup:


Albert, Read the third post on this thread. 

And you do call me a poser:

"Have YOU even ridden latex, or are you like the rest of the know-it-all posers on here who crap on things, even though they never used the product?"


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

pmf said:


> Albert, Read the third post on this thread.


I hope he does!!! LOL


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

froze said:


> I hope he does!!! LOL


Nope, still didn't call him a poser...

I asked if he was like all of the know-it-all posers on the board...didn't call him a know-it-all poser...

Since semantics are now being argued, and our little defensive friend still hasn't answered the question, I'll take it that he hasn't ridden latex tubes, thus shouldn't be proffering his advice, nor his opinion, on the matter. :hand: :hand: 

Thanks for playing, still your turn!:thumbsup:


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> Nope, still didn't call him a poser...
> 
> I asked if he was like all of the know-it-all posers on the board...didn't call him a know-it-all poser...
> 
> ...


What? My comments about carbon wheels didn't piss you off? Darn it, I must be doing something wrong, usually I do a pretty good job of pissin people off on forums; maybe I need to retire...nah, where would the fun in that be?


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

I can think of better thing to do with latex.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> Nope, still didn't call him a poser...
> 
> I asked if he was like all of the know-it-all posers on the board...didn't call him a know-it-all poser...
> 
> ...


OK, Einstein, I suppose the "little friend" thing might apply given the penis reduction surgeries I've had in the past. Since you seem to have trouble counting to three, here's the post I made five days ago, third in this thread. Yes, I have tried latex inner tubes. No, I wasn't impressed. 

"I tried them once after reading reports from people about what a great ride they gave. I couldn't tell any difference at all. They didn't last very long either. Think about it. Its an inner tube. How can it make any difference? Of course people swear they feel a difference in carbon versus aluminum seat posts too . Tires I can kind of see, but inner tubes?

Its a princess and the pea phenomenum, but you might as well try it. As far as bike stuff goes, its cheap. You can't really call yourself a bike pervert without spending (i.e., blowing) money on trivial improvements. Hey, I once "upgraded" the pulleys on my rear derailer"


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

pmf said:


> OK, Einstein, I suppose the "little friend" thing might apply given the penis reduction surgeries I've had in the past. Since you seem to have trouble counting to three, here's the post I made five days ago, third in this thread. Yes, I have tried latex inner tubes. No, I wasn't impressed.


What? you had 3 penis's? So the reduction surgery took you down to 3 or to less then 3?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

pmf said:


> OK, Einstein, I suppose the "little friend" thing might apply given the penis reduction surgeries I've had in the past. Since you seem to have trouble counting to three, here's the post I made five days ago, third in this thread. Yes, I have tried latex inner tubes. No, I wasn't impressed.


What? you had 3 penis's? So the reduction surgery took you down to 3 or to less then 3?


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