# Anyone build with dt swiss r460?



## BLD25

Curious to see anyone's thoughts on this rim. I have a couple of very inexpensive 24h hubs, and looking to build a cheap wheelset for my cx bike. I am 190lbs, but the bike doesn't get a lot of mileage compared to my road bike, and it also will have a thick cushy cx tire on it for much of the time. 

I have built with the pacenti sl23 v1, and also the xc279 kinlin. I really liked the kinlin, and would feel pretty confident with a lower spoke count on that rim, but the vuelta corsa lite wheels on the cx bike now are 24h and decent. The r460 is about the cheapest wide rim out there. Google searches show a little info, but still not a whole lot of talk out there about them.


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## BLD25

I wonder why there isn't much love for these


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## dcgriz

A 23x23 rim at 460 grams does not set any trends in today's environment. Nevertheless, DT Swiss rims are top shelf and although the 460 does not qualify as a featherweight racing rim, it is a solid rim to build a general purpose wheel with. No cracked rim holes on this one. 
With the euro doing what has been doing, the 460 is getting an exceedingly harder to beat value. I would not hesitate using these rims.


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## November Dave

We've built a bunch of them and I'm currently using one as the rear rim on my own bike. 

You'll have to deburr the spoke holes before you lace them, but other than that, they are a fantastic all purpose rim. Despite the tubeless ready label on them, they are actually a very easy rim to hand-mount tires on. At 18mm inside, they're plenty wide, and to me their weight is entirely within reason. They're going to last you a long time.

The set we used to test before we committed to selling them was used in a very aggressive series of crits, and the guy riding them hit a pothole hard enough that he thought he'd wrecked both wheels. No damage. 

**disclosure - we sell them, so I'm biased**


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## changingleaf

Yes, they build well. The weight is closer to 480g in the few that I've built with.


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## BLD25

dcgriz said:


> A 23x23 rim at 460 grams does not set any trends in today's environment. Nevertheless, DT Swiss rims are top shelf and although the 460 does not qualify as a featherweight racing rim, it is a solid rim to build a general purpose wheel with. No cracked rim holes on this one.
> With the euro doing what has been doing, the 460 is getting an exceedingly harder to beat value. I would not hesitate using these rims.


agreed that it isn't earth shattering. The price is really nice, so a set of inexpensive hubs, some wheelsmith or laser spokes, and these will be really affordable, and pretty light still.



November Dave said:


> We've built a bunch of them and I'm currently using one as the rear rim on my own bike.
> 
> You'll have to deburr the spoke holes before you lace them, but other than that, they are a fantastic all purpose rim. Despite the tubeless ready label on them, they are actually a very easy rim to hand-mount tires on. At 18mm inside, they're plenty wide, and to me their weight is entirely within reason. They're going to last you a long time.
> 
> The set we used to test before we committed to selling them was used in a very aggressive series of crits, and the guy riding them hit a pothole hard enough that he thought he'd wrecked both wheels. No damage.
> 
> **disclosure - we sell them, so I'm biased**


Dave, I was hoping you would chime in. I thought you built with these, so your insight is appreciated. I wonder how they compare to the Pacenti sl23 v1....


changingleaf said:


> Yes, they build well. The weight is closer to 480g in the few that I've built with.


Thanks, I had heard that they were overweight. It is actually a little on the porky side for only being 23mm deep. Hopefully it will be strong, though, and 24h should hold my weight fine, I would hope. I am probably going to choose between these and the kinlin xc279, which I have liked so far with previous builds.


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## November Dave

The ones we've had through have been between low 460s and low 470s. Lighter than XC279s, but to a degree that doesn't amount to anything. 

The join is generally cleaner on the DTs than on Kinlins, though both are pretty good. You can build DTs very very round. They're obviously less deep but wider than XC279s. 

Braking feels a bit nicer on DTs than Kinlinsbut my sample size on DTs that I've actually ridden myself is only 3 wheels. 

Purely subjectively, to me the DT looks nicer. The extrusion is more regular, the finish looks really good, and they look great on bikes. 

Neither is great tubeless, but both are easy to put tires onto. 

All else equal I would choose the DTs of the two


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## BLD25

dcgriz said:


> A 23x23 rim at 460 grams does not set any trends in today's environment. Nevertheless, DT Swiss rims are top shelf and although the 460 does not qualify as a featherweight racing rim, it is a solid rim to build a general purpose wheel with. No cracked rim holes on this one.
> With the euro doing what has been doing, the 460 is getting an exceedingly harder to beat value. I would not hesitate using these rims.





November Dave said:


> We've built a bunch of them and I'm currently using one as the rear rim on my own bike.
> 
> You'll have to deburr the spoke holes before you lace them, but other than that, they are a fantastic all purpose rim. Despite the tubeless ready label on them, they are actually a very easy rim to hand-mount tires on. At 18mm inside, they're plenty wide, and to me their weight is entirely within reason. They're going to last you a long time.
> 
> The set we used to test before we committed to selling them was used in a very aggressive series of crits, and the guy riding them hit a pothole hard enough that he thought he'd wrecked both wheels. No damage.
> 
> **disclosure - we sell them, so I'm biased**





November Dave said:


> The ones we've had through have been between low 460s and low 470s. Lighter than XC279s, but to a degree that doesn't amount to anything.
> 
> The join is generally cleaner on the DTs than on Kinlins, though both are pretty good. You can build DTs very very round. They're obviously less deep but wider than XC279s.
> 
> Braking feels a bit nicer on DTs than Kinlinsbut my sample size on DTs that I've actually ridden myself is only 3 wheels.
> 
> Purely subjectively, to me the DT looks nicer. The extrusion is more regular, the finish looks really good, and they look great on bikes.
> 
> Neither is great tubeless, but both are easy to put tires onto.
> 
> All else equal I would choose the DTs of the two


Great information! That is much appreciated!


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## Orfitinho

dcgriz said:


> With the euro doing what has been doing, the 460 is getting an exceedingly harder to beat value. I would not hesitate using these rims.


Currency in Switzerland is still Swiss Franc (CHF) not the Euro. The country even is not a member of the EU, wich would be necessary condition to get the Euro.

Despite the currently bad exchange rate of the CHF against the Euro, this rim is remarkably low priced in euroland too.


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## smokva

I have built pair of these rims on a Record hubs with 32 holes.
They came at 470 and 471 g.
Built them very round with even tension (up to 1250 Nm rear and 1100 front).
So far, after some 1000 km they have been perfect.
Just be sure to use 21 mm rim strip\tape on them, I had problems using narrow ones because of deep middle channel. The same channel makes tire installation easy.


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## dcgriz

Orfitinho said:


> Currency in Switzerland is still Swiss Franc (CHF) not the Euro. The country even is not a member of the EU, wich would be necessary condition to get the Euro.
> 
> Despite the currently bad exchange rate of the CHF against the Euro, this rim is remarkably low priced in euroland too.


Never said I am purchasing from Switzerland. My purchases from Europe are in Pounds or Euros converted from dollars. Right now the dollar is doing well, the euro does not. This rim is sold for 25 euro and you now need less dollars to cover that than in the past; thus my preceding statement regarding the R460 becoming an exceedingly harder to beat value. 

Anyway, thank you for your contribution to this thread.


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## Lombard

Sorry for the thread dredge, but I figured why start a new thread?

But anyway, for awhile, I've been thinking of building a set of DT RR440s. The DT R460 always seemed like a nicer rim and definitely a better deal. My only reservation was that tubeless ready is often synonymous with a PITA tire mount. I see in this thread that is not the case, so this has me thinking about the R460 again.

So my only possible reason for picking the RR440 is that it comes in an asymmetrical rear which gives you more even tensions. The R460 doesn't come in this option.

What I really have to wonder about is the price difference between these two rims. $48 for the R460, $87 for the RR440. Same company, same Swiss Franc. Could this possibly has something to do with the country of manufacture?


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## dcgriz

Lombard said:


> Sorry for the thread dredge, but I figured why start a new thread?
> 
> But anyway, for awhile, I've been thinking of building a set of DT RR440s. The DT R460 always seemed like a nicer rim and definitely a better deal. My only reservation was that tubeless ready is often synonymous with a PITA tire mount. I see in this thread that is not the case, so this has me thinking about the R460 again.
> 
> *So my only possible reason for picking the RR440 is that it comes in an asymmetrical rear which gives you more even tensions. The R460 doesn't come in this option.*
> 
> What I really have to wonder about is the price difference between these two rims. $48 for the R460, $87 for the RR440. Same company, same Swiss Franc. Could this possibly has something to do with the country of manufacture?


So what if it does! Look at what the rim dimensions are that cause it to need that in comparison.

Go with the 460 and dont look back. If you want to use DT hubs, pick the 350 over the 240.


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## Lombard

dcgriz said:


> So what if it does! Look at what the rim dimensions are that cause it to need that in comparison.
> 
> Go with the 460 and dont look back. If you want to use DT hubs, pick the 350 over the 240.



Thanks DC! I am actually thinking of splurging for Dura Ace 9000 hubs. I like a quiet freehub. DT hubs are too noisy.

Now I'm debating whether to do a 24/28 spoke or 24/32 spoke. I'm leaning toward 32 rear because at 18mm internal width, clearance will be tight. A higher spoke count will mean less flex and less chance of tire rub during a stiff climb.

And I'll probably use DT Aero Comp spokes this time.


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## valleycyclist

Lombard said:


> Thanks DC! I am actually thinking of splurging for Dura Ace 9000 hubs. I like a quiet freehub. DT hubs are too noisy.
> 
> Now I'm debating whether to do a 24/28 spoke or 24/32 spoke. I'm leaning toward 32 rear because at 18mm internal width, clearance will be tight. A higher spoke count will mean less flex and less chance of tire rub during a stiff climb.
> 
> And I'll probably use DT Aero Comp spokes this time.


I have two wheelsets with R460 rims and I'm very happy with the rims. I did have clearance issues with using a rear 25mm GP4000S tire on my Diamondback Podium frame, but the clearance problem was with the height of the tire and not the width, so more spokes won't help with that type of clearance issue. I had to stop a few times on a ride when small rocks got wedged between the tire and brake caliper.


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## Peter P.

Get the 440. I too, am a big fan of asymmetrical rear rims. Price difference be damned; it's worth every penny.


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## dcgriz

Lombard said:


> Thanks DC! I am actually thinking of splurging for Dura Ace 9000 hubs. I like a quiet freehub. DT hubs are too noisy.
> 
> Now I'm debating whether to do a 24/28 spoke or 24/32 spoke. I'm leaning toward 32 rear because at 18mm internal width, clearance will be tight. A higher spoke count will mean less flex and less chance of tire rub during a stiff climb.
> 
> And I'll probably use DT Aero Comp spokes this time.


That's a great hub. I would say my all time favorite.

Nothing to loose from a 24/32.


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## Lombard

dcgriz said:


> So what if it does! Look at what the rim dimensions are that cause it to need that in comparison.


So are you saying that a narrower or less aero box style rim would need this more than a wider more aero rim? Won't there still be the same uneven spoke tensions - 130kgf DS, 55kgf NDS?


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## dcgriz

Lombard said:


> So are you saying that a narrower or less aero box style rim would need this more than a wider more aero rim? Won't there still be the same uneven spoke tensions - 130kgf DS, 55kgf NDS?


A wider and taller rim is more rigid than a narrower and shorter rim. The NDS tension will be below the DS tension but at 55 kgf it's enough to keep the NDS spokes adequately tensioned when you use butted spokes.
The asymmetric rims improve the tension ratio but come with their own set of problems as they tend to have higher failure rates (develop cracks along the circumference of the rim) especially on lightweight rims with no reinforcement at the asymmetric extrusion.


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## craiger_ny

Lombard said:


> What I really have to wonder about is the price difference between these two rims. $48 for the R460, $87 for the RR440. Same company, same Swiss Franc. Could this possibly has something to do with the country of manufacture?


The 440 is eyeleted and the 460 is not, there has to be a cost up for eyelets I imagine. Sometimes a model being the latest release commands a higher price but I do not know what order in which these products were released. The 440 is welded, the 460 sleeved. It is possible that the cost of the manufacturing process is higher for the welding either because of cost of tooling, set up time, throughput, cause for subsequent operations or any number of those things. You can charge more for a lighter product to a degree.

Just guessing, I don't know for sure


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## Lombard

craiger_ny said:


> The 440 is eyeleted and the 460 is not, there has to be a cost up for eyelets I imagine. Sometimes a model being the latest release commands a higher price but I do not know what order in which these products were released. The 440 is welded, the 460 sleeved. It is possible that the cost of the manufacturing process is higher for the welding either because of cost of tooling, set up time, throughput, cause for subsequent operations or any number of those things. You can charge more for a lighter product to a degree.
> 
> Just guessing, I don't know for sure




The 440 and 460 weigh about the same. I believe the 440 is an older product than the 460.

Reading around and hearing from other wheel builders, it sounds like eyelets in theory are a good idea, but in reality, they cause more problems than good. Not the least of which, they can loosen and rattle. Ironically, I have heard the eyeletted rims seem to be more prone to cracking. You would think just the opposite. So I have to wonder if the eyelets are a failed attempt to prevent this problem on a rim that would be prone to cracking anyway.

I have also read about asymmetrical rims being more prone to cracking. Here again, I have to wonder the same thing - a failed attempt at making these types of rims more durable.

The only conclusion I really can make here is that it seems shallower and narrower box rims are generally more fragile than wider, deeper rims of the same weight. Here again, this doesn't sound quite right as you have the same total amount of material over a greater area. So one would think the wider deeper rim of the same weight would actually be more fragile? Am I missing something?

Getting back to cost, I guess the cost of eyelets and a welded joint vs. no eyelets and a sleeved joint could create a cost difference. But more than twice as much? Really?


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## Clipped_in

Lombard said:


> I am actually thinking of splurging for Dura Ace 9000 hubs. I like a quiet freehub.


Great hubs--love the quiet freehub. ...And I would agree with everything November Dave said about the 460 rim.


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## Mackers

Built up a pair of R460s that were both under weight at 455 and 457 grams.

Lovely rims.


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## wvucyclist

Resurrecting an old thread, sorry if that's faux pas. I've been eyeing these as well, can anybody speak to the country of manufacture? The price is great regardless of where they're made, and they seem solid, but I do prefer US/EU made stuff.



Lombard said:


> Sorry for the thread dredge, but I figured why start a new thread?
> 
> But anyway, for awhile, I've been thinking of building a set of DT RR440s. The DT R460 always seemed like a nicer rim and definitely a better deal. My only reservation was that tubeless ready is often synonymous with a PITA tire mount. I see in this thread that is not the case, so this has me thinking about the R460 again.
> 
> So my only possible reason for picking the RR440 is that it comes in an asymmetrical rear which gives you more even tensions. The R460 doesn't come in this option.
> 
> What I really have to wonder about is the price difference between these two rims. $48 for the R460, $87 for the RR440. Same company, same Swiss Franc. Could this possibly has something to do with the country of manufacture?


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## Lombard

wvucyclist said:


> Resurrecting an old thread, sorry if that's faux pas. I've been eyeing these as well, can anybody speak to the country of manufacture? The price is great regardless of where they're made, and they seem solid, but I do prefer US/EU made stuff.


I can't say for sure where they are made, but if I had to guess, I would say Asia based on their low price.

I just built up a pair of DT R460s with DA 9000 hubs, DT Aero Comp spokes and DT brass nips. They built up quite easy. Very nice! I highly recommend.


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## Jay Strongbow

wvucyclist said:


> Resurrecting an old thread, sorry if that's faux pas. I've been eyeing these as well, can anybody speak to the country of manufacture? The price is great regardless of where they're made, and they seem solid, but I do prefer US/EU made stuff.


I don't know, but for what it's worth the one rim of that size and style that I do know is made in the US is the Velocity A23.
Several of the Asian/unknown origin options are better though IMO.


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## tka

wvucyclist said:


> Resurrecting an old thread, sorry if that's faux pas. I've been eyeing these as well, can anybody speak to the country of manufacture? The price is great regardless of where they're made, and they seem solid, but I do prefer US/EU made stuff.


I checked my R460s and none of them said a country of origin. They had "Made By DT Swiss" all over them but no country of origin.


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## smokva

smokva said:


> I have built pair of these rims on a Record hubs with 32 holes.
> They came at 470 and 471 g.
> Built them very round with even tension (up to 1250 Nm rear and 1100 front).
> So far, after some 1000 km they have been perfect.
> Just be sure to use 21 mm rim strip\tape on them, I had problems using narrow ones because of deep middle channel. The same channel makes tire installation easy.


Just to give long test review...after my original post I did at least 20.000 km on these wheels. During this time, my weight was never under 105kg, I was even maxing up to 120kg. I never had a single problem with the rims. They stayed true and didn't develop cracks. In meantime I laced another pair of these rims with 32 holes for my touring bike. Also never had any problems with them.
I must say these rims are the best rims I ever had.

HOWEVER! I have a friend who got factory DT wheels with these rims. I cant remember model of the wheels, but rims used are R460 with less spoke holes. Rear wheel developed cracks around spoke holes. He changed rim and put another R460 with same number of spokes, and now this one started developing cracks.

So, what to say...my experience with 32H rims was superb, but with my own eyes I say these rims cracking around spoke holes on setup with less than 32h.


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## Mackers

I have three sets, one with 28-24 and two with 24-20 spoke holes.

The 28-24 set (Power Tap rear and Dura Ace front) is older than this thread and still going strong. It's been rode hard and put away wet more times than I care to remember 
The 24-20 sets (DT 240s hubs) while much younger, have been just as unproblematic so far.

62kg rider, btw.


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## Lombard

Last two posts, so many variables. One big one is the wheel builder.


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## Mackers

Yeah, that'd be me.


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