# WTF Trek



## ColnagoDream (Aug 6, 2004)

Is Trek retarded? With the US dollar down, why would they jack up the prices so that they match Colnago's, DeRosa's... Lord knows that they can't build a bike like them, so why increase their prices so that they are about the same as the best frame builders in the world?


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## macbugs (Jul 12, 2004)

*yep, gotta agree with you*



ColnagoDream said:


> Is Trek retarded? With the US dollar down, why would they jack up the prices so that they match Colnago's, DeRosa's... Lord knows that they can't build a bike like them, so why increase their prices so that they are about the same as the best frame builders in the world?


I was shocked when I saw the prices on '06 models. I knew they were going up but not as much as they did. Last years Madone 5.2 and 5000 were priced very well, I picked up a 5000 for $1850 in July and am glad I didn't wait until this year. I think Trek builds very good bikes but you're right not in Colnago or DeRosa range.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

ColnagoDream said:


> Is Trek retarded? With the US dollar down, why would they jack up the prices so that they match Colnago's, DeRosa's... Lord knows that they can't build a bike like them, so why increase their prices so that they are about the same as the best frame builders in the world?


Because they can.....It's called supply and demand


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## ColnagoDream (Aug 6, 2004)

*Yes, but...*



Dave Hickey said:


> Because they can.....It's called supply and demand



My point is that the demand for a Colnago or a DeRosa is more that that of a Trek. Trek does not NEED to charge that much. There is no import tax nor differences in currency. It is an unjustified increase. Plus Lance retired, so Trek doesn't have that big check to send him every week!


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

ColnagoDream said:


> My point is that the demand for a Colnago or a DeRosa is more that that of a Trek. Trek does not NEED to charge that much. There is no import tax nor differences in currency. It is an unjustified increase. Plus Lance retired, so Trek doesn't have that big check to send him every week!


"My point is that the demand for a Colnago or a DeRosa is more that that of a Trek."

What?? I think you're dreaming. Let's see some numbers.

"Trek does not NEED to charge that much. There is no import tax nor differences in currency. It is an unjustified increase."

Called free enterprise. Actually works quite well.

TF


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## ColnagoDream (Aug 6, 2004)

*Ha!*



TurboTurtle said:


> "My point is that the demand for a Colnago or a DeRosa is more that that of a Trek."
> 
> What?? I think you're dreaming. Let's see some numbers.
> 
> ...


Well, lemme splain it to you. It is kind of like this scenario. The Toyota Supra is a great sports car. It handles well. It is fast and kinda sporty looking...much like the Trek Madone 5.9 ssslxlssxl (or whatever).The C-50 is largely considered the Ferrari of bicycles and the Ferarri is one heck of a car. It maybe a little faster than the Supra...maybe, BUT if Toyota jacks up their price so that they match or are close to the Ferarri's MSRP, who is going to buy that SUpra? Free enterprise THAT! The Trek does not have the same panache as a C-50. If you want evidence, go to your local group ride with a C-50 or a De Rosa Tango. Sure Trek is selling a lot of bikes right now...because they have always been a _*cheaper * _ alternative to the Italian framemakers.


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## macbugs (Jul 12, 2004)

*My worry*



ColnagoDream said:


> Well, lemme splain it to you. It is kind of like this scenario. The Toyota Supra is a great sports car. It handles well. It is fast and kinda sporty looking...much like the Trek Madone 5.9 ssslxlssxl (or whatever).The C-50 is largely considered the Ferrari of bicycles and the Ferarri is one heck of a car. It maybe a little faster than the Supra...maybe, BUT if Toyota jacks up their price so that they match or are close to the Ferarri's MSRP, who is going to buy that SUpra? Free enterprise THAT! The Trek does not have the same panache as a C-50. If you want evidence, go to your local group ride with a C-50 or a De Rosa Tango. Sure Trek is selling a lot of bikes right now...because they have always been a _*cheaper * _ alternative to the Italian framemakers.


Is that Trek is going to price itself out of the market. Right, they can charge whatever they want but at what point will sales start reflecting the price increase ? That's the big question. I just feel that had a good niche market (entry level - mid level) but are now trying to move up scale.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

ColnagoDream said:


> Well, lemme splain it to you. It is kind of like this scenario. The Toyota Supra is a great sports car. It handles well. It is fast and kinda sporty looking...much like the Trek Madone 5.9 ssslxlssxl (or whatever).The C-50 is largely considered the Ferrari of bicycles and the Ferarri is one heck of a car. It maybe a little faster than the Supra...maybe, BUT if Toyota jacks up their price so that they match or are close to the Ferarri's MSRP, who is going to buy that SUpra? Free enterprise THAT! The Trek does not have the same panache as a C-50. If you want evidence, go to your local group ride with a C-50 or a De Rosa Tango. Sure Trek is selling a lot of bikes right now...because they have always been a _*cheaper * _ alternative to the Italian framemakers.


I'm with Turtle on this one. The demand is greater for a Colnago? Let's get real...Despite what you might think, not everyone wants a Colnago..

Your Ferrari reference is not even close...Enzo Ferrari's philosophy was, if the demand for a car is 500 units, make 499 of them. That is how you create exclusivity.

Ernesto will make as many C50's as he can shove out the door....


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

ColnagoDream said:


> Trek does not NEED to charge that much. There is no import tax nor differences in currency.


Hmmm... But how much of each Trek bike is actually made domestically? My guess is that at most, 2/3 or maybe 3/4 of any Trek is actually created domestically, and many Treks contain far less domestic content. Some low-end Treks are built entirely off-shore.

Many Japanese name plate cars are assembled in the US, and even many of the parts are sourced domestically. I wonder what percentage of the average Honda or Toyota is actually built domestically, vs. what percentage of the average Trek bicycle.

Like it or not, we live in a world economy.


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## ColnagoDream (Aug 6, 2004)

*Are you high?*



Dave Hickey said:


> I'm with Turtle on this one. The demand is greater for a Colnago? Let's get real...Despite what you might think, not everyone wants a Colnago..
> 
> Your Ferrari reference is not even close...Enzo Ferrari's philosophy was, if the demand for a car is 500 units, make 499 of them. That is how you create exclusivity.
> 
> Ernesto will make as many C50's as he can shove out the door....


If we took a poll, I GUARANTEE you that the VAST majority of riders out there would choose a Colnago C-50 over any Trek. You are living in denial if you disagree. The proof would be at your local group ride. You would get little or no reaction from riding a Trek and people would gawk at your new Colnago. 

Oh, and Ernesto is not pushing them out the door as fast as he can (like Trek). You have to wait at LEAST a month for a Colnago if it is not in stock. I can get a TREK within a few days.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Since I'm not a big fan of Colnagos or Treks, perhaps I'm a little more objective than you...

Colnago's have become just another bike brand( like Trek)....They produce WAY to many to be exclusive...If you want exclusive, buy a Richard Sachs...

If you want to ride a Colnago, go right ahead. It's a very nice bike.


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## ColnagoDream (Aug 6, 2004)

*How's this for objective...*



Dave Hickey said:


> Since I'm not a big fan of Colnagos or Treks, perhaps I'm a little more objective than you...
> 
> Colnago's have become just another bike brand( like Trek)....They produce WAY to many to be exclusive...If you want exclusive, buy a Richard Sachs...
> 
> If you want to ride a Colnago, go right ahead. It's a very nice bike.



I have a personal sponsorship from my local shop (Trek Dealer) where I get everything for 20% above dealer cost. I went in to purchase a 5.9 Madone because I thought that it would be around $1760 (the price of the 5900 for me two years ago). When I saw that the price was going to be around $2500, I said NO WAY!! I turned around and bought a C-50 for $1950 and got three times the bike. So, if you think that I am biased...maybe, but it is for a reason. I have owned about one frame from all of the top framemakers, but I keep coming back to Colnago because they are the best. I have a C-50, a Dream Plus and a CT1. If someone can build a better bike or provide more bang for the buck, I might be interested, but until then...


Oh, I do not care about exclusive and if I wanted an 8 pound steel frame, I might get a Richard Sucks.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

ColnagoDream said:


> If we took a poll, I GUARANTEE you that the VAST majority of riders out there would choose a Colnago C-50 over any Trek. You are living in denial if you disagree. The proof would be at your local group ride. You would get little or no reaction from riding a Trek and people would gawk at your new Colnago.
> 
> Oh, and Ernesto is not pushing them out the door as fast as he can (like Trek). You have to wait at LEAST a month for a Colnago if it is not in stock. I can get a TREK within a few days.


What. I bet more people in the US OWN Treks than even know Colnago exists. You have to be trolling. Sorry I bit.

BTW. I do not own or particularly like/dislike Treks. I love Colnagos. But you have to get real. In the US, Colnago is nothing but a footnote.

TF


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I'll let you have the last word on this.... you are just oozing objectivity.......

enjoy your Colnagos and have a nice day.....


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## lemond2001 (Nov 22, 2001)

I think all of you are forgetting the big picture. The price of fuel is making everyone raise pricing on everything. We have had 5 price increases alone this year in the carpeting business. Just had one this month another next month. These cost have to be pushed back onto the consumer. Also, because everyone and their dogs is using carbon fiber there has been a shortage of this as well. So the makers of carbon have raised their prices because they can. This has pushed the price up on the Treks. 

You can thank yourselves for these price increases because Americans need the biggest cars and trucks to drive to work. We refuse to buy smaller cars and trucks. This year no one even makes a compact truck anymore. All mid size and super dupper quad monster truck size. Think about.....


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## ColnagoDream (Aug 6, 2004)

*You're right.*



TurboTurtle said:


> What. I bet more people in the US OWN Treks than even know Colnago exists. You have to be trolling. Sorry I bit.
> 
> BTW. I do not own or particularly like/dislike Treks. I love Colnagos. But you have to get real. In the US, Colnago is nothing but a footnote.
> 
> TF


My kids have treks. My neighbors have Treks. The police have Treks. Colnago does not bother with low end sales in the US. Treks are like dog---- in the park...they're everywhere! However, if Trek continues to raise their prices and Colnago, DeRosa etc stay the same, you will see fewer Treks and more Italian bikes out there because they have more panache. That is all that I am saying.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

If you go to the Colnago forum, you will see that ColnagoDream is a self-admitted troll in the Trek forum.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

MikeBiker said:


> If you go to the Colnago forum, you will see that ColnagoDream is a self-admitted troll in the Trek forum.


Yah, I saw it. Since I only use the "New Posts" and had no idea I was in the Trek or Colnago forum.

His exaggeration was just as bad in Colnago as here - something like "tearing it up over in Trek". Right. Checked his birthday and it says he's older than 14, but I guess you can exaggerate there also.

TF


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

TurboTurtle said:


> Yah, I saw it. Since I only use the "New Posts" and had no idea I was in the Trek or Colnago forum.
> 
> His exaggeration was just as bad in Colnago as here - something like "tearing it up over in Trek". Right. Checked his birthday and it says he's older than 14, but I guess you can exaggerate there also.
> 
> TF


He's not getting any support over at the Colnago forum..

Apparently, the other Colnago owners are a class group....They have no need nor desire to knock another brand....


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

ColnagoDream said:


> If we took a poll, I GUARANTEE you that the VAST majority of riders out there would choose a Colnago C-50 over any Trek. You are living in denial if you disagree. The proof would be at your local group ride. You would get little or no reaction from riding a Trek and people would gawk at your new Colnago.
> 
> Oh, and Ernesto is not pushing them out the door as fast as he can (like Trek). You have to wait at LEAST a month for a Colnago if it is not in stock. I can get a TREK within a few days.


Is Colnago the same brand that is being dumped at discount outlets like 
Sierra Trading Post?


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## colker1 (Jan 2, 2003)

ColnagoDream said:


> My kids have treks. My neighbors have Treks. The police have Treks. Colnago does not bother with low end sales in the US. Treks are like dog---- in the park...they're everywhere! However, if Trek continues to raise their prices and Colnago, DeRosa etc stay the same, you will see fewer Treks and more Italian bikes out there because they have more panache. That is all that I am saying.


from what i understand, you wanted to buy a trek.. it was too expensive for your budget. you bought a colnago. now you have a chip on your shoulder.. i sympathise. it sucks to want it and not get it


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## cmatcan (Oct 6, 2005)

ColnagoDream said:


> I have a personal sponsorship from my local shop (Trek Dealer) where I get everything for 20% above dealer cost. I went in to purchase a 5.9 Madone because I thought that it would be around $1760 (the price of the 5900 for me two years ago). When I saw that the price was going to be around $2500, I said NO WAY!! I turned around and bought a C-50 for $1950 and got three times the bike. So, if you think that I am biased...maybe, but it is for a reason. I have owned about one frame from all of the top framemakers, but I keep coming back to Colnago because they are the best. I have a C-50, a Dream Plus and a CT1. If someone can build a better bike or provide more bang for the buck, I might be interested, but until then...
> 
> 
> Oh, I do not care about exclusive and if I wanted an 8 pound steel frame, I might get a Richard Sucks.



HAHAHAH that's not a sponsorship. i get treks for 20% UNDER dealer cost, THAT's a sponsorship deal. you clearly know nothing about the quality of richard sachs bikes and the respect that every rider in the know has for them. I agree with Mr. Hickey there that Colnago has become much less exclusive and more mainstream. they're even making kids bikes now, for god's sake. at the end of the day, though, you need to realize that for some riders, a Trek is clearly a preferable ride to a colnago, and vice-versa as well. if you think you can just set the precident about what bikes are best, period, you are mistaken. it really doesn't work that way.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

ColnagoDream said:


> ...Oh, I do not care about exclusive and if I wanted an 8 pound steel frame, I might get a Richard Sucks.



that's not very charitable.
oh - and your scale is off nearly 4.5 pounds.
*e-RICHIE©™®*


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

lemond2001 said:


> I think all of you are forgetting the big picture. The price of fuel is making everyone raise pricing on everything..


And it's not just the fuel prices, most plastics and composite materials like CF come from the petro-chemical industry. Supply is not keeping up with demand. Hydocarbons are a depleting natural resource. Stock up on bicycles now.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Al1943 said:


> And it's not just the fuel prices, most plastics and composite materials like CF come from the petro-chemical industry. Supply is not keeping up with demand. Hydocarbons are a depleting natural resource. Stock up on bicycles now.


I believe titanium is the most abundant metal on the earth. I'm set. - TF


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Titanium rarest of common structural metals*



TurboTurtle said:


> I believe titanium is the most abundant metal on the earth. I'm set. - TF


Umm... Not quite. If you take the Earth as a whole, the most abundant metal is iron (remember that the Earth's core is almost entirely molten iron). About 1/3 of the composition of the entire earth is iron. Titanium is bare fraction of a fraction of 1 percent of the earth's composition.

Earth's composition

Of course, the earth's core is not accessable, so the metals we use are from the crust. But of the metals in the crust, the most abundant is aluminum. Iron is the second most abundant metal in the crust. 

Composition of Earth's crust

Magnesium is far more abundant than titanium, in both the Earth as a whole, and in the crust.

An additional factor to be considered is the energy cost of extracting metals from ore. Here, iron is the lowest, aluminum is quite a bit higher, and titanium is even higher still.

Given these factors, the supply of steel (iron based) frames is the least likely to dry up, the supply of aluminum frames the next least likely, and titanium the most likely - possibly more likely thatn carbon frames.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Mark McM said:


> Umm... Not quite. If you take the Earth as a whole, the most abundant metal is iron (remember that the Earth's core is almost entirely molten iron). About 1/3 of the composition of the entire earth is iron. Titanium is bare fraction of a fraction of 1 percent of the earth's composition.
> 
> Earth's composition
> 
> ...


I'm pretty well stocked now (9 Ti frames), but guess I better stock up even more. Times could be tough. - TF


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Mark McM said:


> Hmmm... But how much of each Trek bike is actually made domestically? My guess is that at most, 2/3 or maybe 3/4 of any Trek is actually created domestically, and many Treks contain far less domestic content. Some low-end Treks are built entirely off-shore.
> 
> Many Japanese name plate cars are assembled in the US, and even many of the parts are sourced domestically. I wonder what percentage of the average Honda or Toyota is actually built domestically, vs. what percentage of the average Trek bicycle.
> 
> Like it or not, we live in a world economy.



Yeah, it's funny. I ride an 05 Madone, and on the chainstay it has an American Flag with the phrase "Handbuilt in the USA" or something like that.
Well the lawyers must have had something to say to the marketers, because the 06 Madones now say: "Handbuilt in the USA of domestic and foreign parts." or something like that! Maybe next years Madones will say "Partially Handbuilt and then Assembled in the ...." oh, never mind.

I actually like Colnagos, pretty sexy paint jobs, but are they more desirable than Trek's or Look's, or DeRosa's, or [fillintheblank]. That is subjective. Ride what you want, but whatever you do, ride it. 

(And like an earlier poster said, I am sorry for biting to this troll too.)

peace
zac


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## laotsu42 (Feb 21, 2004)

macbugs said:


> Is that Trek is going to price itself out of the market. Right, they can charge whatever they want but at what point will sales start reflecting the price increase ? That's the big question. I just feel that had a good niche market (entry level - mid level) but are now trying to move up scale.



all of the big ones raised prices a little at our shop this year but then when oil is short it makes some things harder who knows ....my moneys been F***ing worthless lately anyway ...inflation ....every ones gotta pay bills


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## laotsu42 (Feb 21, 2004)

ColnagoDream said:


> If we took a poll, I GUARANTEE you that the VAST majority of riders out there would choose a Colnago C-50 over any Trek. You are living in denial if you disagree. The proof would be at your local group ride. You would get little or no reaction from riding a Trek and people would gawk at your new Colnago.
> 
> I can get a TREK within a few days.


hint one month or a few days HMMMMM 


are you kidding me ....most of the guys i know who are in the market for a high end bike take at least a few test rides on other bikes and don't buy soley for the name ...i've never ridden the colnago but I've seen many go with the madone or any other number of bikes for various reasons and i have sold one to a guy who liked it better than the colnago but each has their special fit issues and tastes so i can't see how one bike could be the perfect choice and i can't tell the difference between and italian bike and an american bike in the race winners so maybe everyone makes good stuff you just need whats best for you ...


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## yessl (Nov 1, 2005)

*This Trek looks good to me.*

More important is that it rides/handles perfectly too.


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## laotsu42 (Feb 21, 2004)

*Oooooooooooooooooo*



yessl said:


> More important is that it rides/handles perfectly too.



dude that bike is soooo hot ....

what does that weigh ...

nice wheels btw


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## yessl (Nov 1, 2005)

laotsu42 said:


> dude that bike is soooo hot ....
> 
> what does that weigh ...
> 
> nice wheels btw


Size XL (62cm) 15.2 lb w/o pedals 
Yeah the 2006 Aero Carbon wheels are great!


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## Peith (Feb 16, 2006)

yessl said:


> Size XL (62cm) 15.2 lb w/o pedals
> Yeah the 2006 Aero Carbon wheels are great!


The larger size Treks look awesome! 

As for Colnago vs. Trek debate...I've yet to see what a Colnago carbon frame looks like dissected. I've seen a number of manufacturers cross sections, the best being Trek, Giant, and Scott, in no particular order. Of course I don't necessarily promote plastic bikes, but I have huge confidence in the Trek OCLV. I'd actually be interested to ask oclv owners how the frame weathers over a few years.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

NICE F**** SSL B****!!!!

yessl, thought I'd seen it all but DAYUM that's a fine ass rig - 

I am hoping that OCLV 55 will become what OCLV 110 has become; used in several models and that they will eventually phase out OCLV 120


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

CARBON110 said:


> NICE F**** SSL B****!!!!
> 
> yessl, thought I'd seen it all but DAYUM that's a fine ass rig -
> 
> I am hoping that OCLV 55 will become what OCLV 110 has become; used in several models and that they will eventually phase out OCLV 120


That's exactly what happened with OCLV 150. It stands to reason the higher-end carbon will continue to come down in price, and 120 will gradually see less utilization.


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## cmatcan (Oct 6, 2005)

WhiskeyNovember said:


> That's exactly what happened with OCLV 150. It stands to reason the higher-end carbon will continue to come down in price, and 120 will gradually see less utilization.


yeah, that'll be great for sure. wonder if bontrager will have to start making xxxx lite components to match the changes, lol. whatever happens, the bikes will be slick and fast.


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## cmatcan (Oct 6, 2005)

WhiskeyNovember said:


> That's exactly what happened with OCLV 150. It stands to reason the higher-end carbon will continue to come down in price, and 120 will gradually see less utilization.


yeah, that'll be great for sure. wonder if bontrager will have to start making xxxx lite components to match the changes, lol. whatever happens, the bikes will be slick and fast.


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## speedgod (Jan 13, 2005)

Well just after reading this posting I find it quite funny. I own two Trek Madones one SL and one SSL both with PJ1 paint on them. I have them parked next to a Merckx AXM and Pinarello Paris Carbon and it is funny how much more my Treks get than those bikes. All are very nice but I must say YOU will never find a better quality carbon bike than the Trek OCLV product wich is YES HANDBUILT in the USA. The foriegn parts are everything other than the frame. I have seen cross sections of Colnagos (not bad,some fillers), Scotts (horrible), Giant (horrible), Look (god awful) and verious other junk. I wish all shops could have cut-aways of frames so you the consumer could get the birds eye view and see what is beneath a pretty paint job. Why would the aerospace industry look to Trek to see how they do what they do with carbon when they themselves could not?
I had to make my posting as I have seen the Waterloo factory where the Madones are produced and walked through the carbon division and it is a site to see!!
On a side note: Yes you will see 20x the number of Treks vs. Italian bikes on any given ride. You can also see that the USPS and Discovery team NEVER had a frame failure! But......To each there own!

SG


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Trek OCLV failures (including by USPS team)*



speedgod said:


> Well just after reading this posting I find it quite funny. I own two Trek Madones one SL and one SSL both with PJ1 paint on them. I have them parked next to a Merckx AXM and Pinarello Paris Carbon and it is funny how much more my Treks get than those bikes. All are very nice but I must say YOU will never find a better quality carbon bike than the Trek OCLV product wich is YES HANDBUILT in the USA. The foriegn parts are everything other than the frame. I have seen cross sections of Colnagos (not bad,some fillers), Scotts (horrible), Giant (horrible), Look (god awful) and verious other junk. I wish all shops could have cut-aways of frames so you the consumer could get the birds eye view and see what is beneath a pretty paint job. Why would the aerospace industry look to Trek to see how they do what they do with carbon when they themselves could not?
> I had to make my posting as I have seen the Waterloo factory where the Madones are produced and walked through the carbon division and it is a site to see!!
> On a side note: Yes you will see 20x the number of Treks vs. Italian bikes on any given ride. You can also see that the USPS and Discovery team NEVER had a frame failure! But......To each there own!
> 
> SG


After reading your post, I find it quite funny too. While you may be sincere, you come off sounding like an industry shill. It is true that you see far more Treks than Italian bikes on any given ride, but I've still seen quite a number of OCLV frames that have failed, including a few owned by friends of mine.

And what makes you think that USPS and Discovery have never had a frame failure - especially as it is widely known that Armstrong broke the chainstay on Trek OCLV on the 15th stage of the 2003 Tour de France (and ended up winning the stage anyway). How many other frames were broken by the team and hushed up?


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## speedgod (Jan 13, 2005)

[/QUOTE]
And what makes you think that USPS and Discovery have never had a frame failure - especially as it is widely known that Armstrong broke the chainstay on Trek OCLV on the 15th stage of the 2003 Tour de France (and ended up winning the stage anyway). How many other frames were broken by the team and hushed up?[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....... Lets see.... Well seeming how Lance's bike was run OVER and involved in a accident does not make this a frame failure. And yet he still was able to finish this stage!! Under normal conditions USPS/Discovery has NEVER had a frame failure. This information was passed on while I toured the Trek factory. I doubt that they would make a statement such as this without being able to back it up!
Yes there are failures on OCLV they are not PERFECT but they sure are close!

To each there own

SG


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

ColnagoDream said:


> If we took a poll, I GUARANTEE you that the VAST majority of riders out there would choose a Colnago C-50 over any Trek. You are living in denial if you disagree. The proof would be at your local group ride. You would get little or no reaction from riding a Trek and people would gawk at your new Colnago.
> 
> Oh, and Ernesto is not pushing them out the door as fast as he can (like Trek). You have to wait at LEAST a month for a Colnago if it is not in stock. I can get a TREK within a few days.


I don't believe you. I see tons of Cannondales (or Bianchis or Specialized or Trek) for each Colnago. What people would choose and what they actually buy are two different things.

Personally, I like a ride a little more exotic- but lets get real. I ride a Look, and have encountered a few Cannondale riders who never knew they made frames.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Why then did they reduce warranty coverage?*



speedgod said:


> Under normal conditions USPS/Discovery has NEVER had a frame failure. This information was passed on while I toured the Trek factory. I doubt that they would make a statement such as this without being able to back it up!


This sounds like the typical response by customer service to reports of product failure: "Gee, that's the first time we've ever heard about that!". This response is often given numerous times for the same problem - every time the same problem occurs, it is always, "that's the first time we've every heard about that". It frequently appears the people are hired for sales and marketing positions partially based on their short memories.



speedgod said:


> Yes there are failures on OCLV they are not PERFECT but they sure are close!


Well, then answer this - Why did Trek feel it necessary a few years ago to reduce their warranty on OCLV frames (and only OCLV frames) from lifetime to just 5 years? The warranty covered only manufacturing defects (not crash damage), and yet they felt the need to reduce manufacturing defect coverage on their OCLV frames, while the rest of their frames (even their cheapest models) still carried a lifetime warranty.

Some time later Trek did return to a lifetime warranty on OCLV frames, but only after a lot of consumer (and dealer) uproar and complaints.


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## cmatcan (Oct 6, 2005)

Mark McM said:


> This sounds like the typical response by customer service to reports of product failure: "Gee, that's the first time we've ever heard about that!". This response is often given numerous times for the same problem - every time the same problem occurs, it is always, "that's the first time we've every heard about that". It frequently appears the people are hired for sales and marketing positions partially based on their short memories.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if that wasn't just a bunch of blind speculation, i might be worried. either you're a fly on the wall in waterloo or you're just making stupid assumptions and false claims. generally, arguments supported by facts are the best ones to bring up.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Dodging the question*



cmatcan said:


> if that wasn't just a bunch of blind speculation, i might be worried. either you're a fly on the wall in waterloo or you're just making stupid assumptions and false claims. generally, arguments supported by facts are the best ones to bring up.


Nice attempt to dodge the question. You still haven't addressed why at one point Trek reduced their warranty on OCLV frames from lifetime to 5 years, while at the same time they kept a lifetime warranty on all their other frames. That they did this is a *fact*, not speculation. Please explain why Trek felt the need to do this for OCLV frames, if they are near-perfect.

As to whether USPS or Discovery ever had a Trek frame fail - the Trek rep. at the factory may have said they never have, but apparantly Christian Vande Velde has said that they have (RBR post on USPS Trek frames)


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## pktrekguy (Nov 4, 2005)

Mark McM said:


> Nice attempt to dodge the question. You still haven't addressed why at one point Trek reduced their warranty on OCLV frames from lifetime to 5 years, while at the same time they kept a lifetime warranty on all their other frames. That they did this is a *fact*, not speculation. Please explain why Trek felt the need to do this for OCLV frames, if they are near-perfect.
> 
> As to whether USPS or Discovery ever had a Trek frame fail - the Trek rep. at the factory may have said they never have, but apparantly Christian Vande Velde has said that they have (RBR post on USPS Trek frames)


The Trek warranty has not been reduced to 5 years on the carbon bikes. It is a lifetime warranty. The only bike that I know of that has less than a lifetime warranty is the Session 10 Freeride bike which is a 2 or maybe a 3 year warranty. 

I don't know where you got your info, but it isn't right, so get your facts straight.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Reading comprehension*



pktrekguy said:


> The Trek warranty has not been reduced to 5 years on the carbon bikes. It is a lifetime warranty. The only bike that I know of that has less than a lifetime warranty is the Session 10 Freeride bike which is a 2 or maybe a 3 year warranty.
> 
> I don't know where you got your info, but it isn't right, so get your facts straight.


No, the facts are straight - please re-read the thread. As stated, OCLV frames started with a lifetime warranty, but was reduced to a 5 year warranty. After some time (and after many complaints from customers and dealers), the warranty was returned to lifetime. These are the straight facts - if you were interested in facts, you would have done a little research and found that this was true.

Or are you one of the industry shills mentioned in other threads?

As I said, there were many complaints about the reduction in warranty, so there was much discussion on various message boards. Here are a few:

rec.bicycles.marketplace discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty 
Another rec.bicycles.marketplace discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty 
rec.bicycles.off-road discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty 
rec.bicycles.misc discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty 
rec.bicycles.racing discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty 
rec.bicycles.tech discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty
rec.sport.triathlon discussion on OCLV 5 year warranty


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## pktrekguy (Nov 4, 2005)

Mark McM said:


> No, the facts are straight - please re-read the thread. As stated, OCLV frames started with a lifetime warranty, but was reduced to a 5 year warranty. After some time (and after many complaints from customers and dealers), the warranty was returned to lifetime. These are the straight facts - if you were interested in facts, you would have done a little research and found that this was true.
> 
> Or are you one of the industry shills mentioned in other threads?
> 
> ...


I read through your post a little too quickly. I apologize for that, but I don't understand your rant at all. You demand a reason why Trek only had a 5 year warranty on their carbon frames for a given time period. Who cares its a dead issue. It was five years then and now its life time. Get over it. 

I am sure want a response something like this - Trek knows their frames have an inferior product with a short life expectancy wants to stick it the consumer when their frame breaks after the 5 year period, so that may reap the benefits of another bikes sale. 

I am sure Trek is a very well run company and was smart enough to realize that their customers see value in a lifetime warranty. Going to a 5 year warranty may not have been the best choice, but they have redeemed themselves by bringing back the lifetime and improving upon their already excellent customer service.


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

pktrekguy said:


> You demand a reason why Trek only had a 5 year warranty on their carbon frames for a given time period. Who cares its a dead issue. It was five years then and now its life time. Get over it.


Very well said, pktrekguy. I think most of us are on the same page. Hopefully, Mark McM got that little rant out of his system. Mark, perhaps next you can move on, and bash Trek for manufacturing Y-bikes. It would be equally as relevant.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

WhiskeyNovember said:


> Very well said, pktrekguy. I think most of us are on the same page. Hopefully, Mark McM got that little rant out of his system. Mark, perhaps next you can move on, and bash Trek for manufacturing Y-bikes. It would be equally as relevant.


If you read the thread, I asked the question about the reduction in OCLV warranty directly to speedgod, in response to his statement:

"Yes there are failures on OCLV they are not PERFECT but they sure are close!".

I was then basically called a liar by both speedgod and pktrekguy. So I was merely demonstrating that I had the facts straight.

But, at least we've been able to unmask pktrekguy as an industry shill (note his posting history).


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*and besides that*



pktrekguy said:


> I read through your post a little too quickly. I apologize for that, but I don't understand your rant at all. You demand a reason why Trek only had a 5 year warranty on their carbon frames for a given time period. Who cares its a dead issue. It was five years then and now its life time. Get over it.
> 
> I am sure want a response something like this - Trek knows their frames have an inferior product with a short life expectancy wants to stick it the consumer when their frame breaks after the 5 year period, so that may reap the benefits of another bikes sale.
> 
> I am sure Trek is a very well run company and was smart enough to realize that their customers see value in a lifetime warranty. Going to a 5 year warranty may not have been the best choice, but they have redeemed themselves by bringing back the lifetime and improving upon their already excellent customer service.


And to add, how many of Trek competitors offer lifetime warranty? Look? No. Bianchi? No. Giant? No. They offer 3-5 years. If I pay several grand for a frame/fork I expect better than that. Having said this, what is a lifetime warranty anyway? I do think 5 years is too short. What is Look, Bianchi, Giant etc selling us then?

Question: does Trek really stand by their warranty? One thing is to offer it and the other one is to deliver it without putting customer thru the pain.


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