# Waht kind of a difference will wheels really make?



## cyclingsivells (Aug 1, 2012)

I've got a Trek 5200 (2006) that I bought new when I was first starting to ride. The wheels are stock (Bontrager Race). According to Trek's website the wheels weigh 1,170 grams each. I know the rear is supposed to weigh more but that's what the website says. 

I ride 10,000 miles + a year. I ride 3 or 4 pretty difficult events a year-Mount Mitchell, Six Gap, Cheaha, 3 State 3 Mtn... I'm 180 pounds and 49 years old-just for some background.

My question is-I've got a friend who will build me some wheels. The total weight of the new wheels is around 1,400 grams. I know the wheels are not gonna to make me a Tour rider but I just wanted to know what to expect, realistically by adding the new wheels. They are gonna be about $340 dollars for the set-and by the way the guy knows what he's doing. (all that is suppose to be a question)


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## cyclingsivells (Aug 1, 2012)

I meant to to say WHAT in the title not WAHT.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

better wheels will utlize what your body puts out more efficently....


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Your rear is 1120g, the front is probably around 900. Pretty hefty set of wheels.

Over a 10 mile climb, a lighter wheelset might save you _seconds_. What you had for breakfast usually equals a bigger difference in time and speed. 

However, a new light set of wheels will _feel_ faster. It'll feel like its easier to climb, and you'll feel like you're going faster. You're, tangibly, really not.. but lighter wheels will make a big difference in your ride.

1400g is getting pretty light. The lighter you go, something has to give. Usually durability. You can build a rock solid ~1600g set. At 10,000 miles a year, you probably want to be out riding, not home fixing broken wheels with ultra light parts. 

What components are you looking at? I say go for the new wheels, but be realistic in what you're getting. You're buying feel more than speed... but most people agree that its worth it.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Can you share with us the components you plan to use for the wheelset you are considering? You will most likely feel a difference with the new wheels, but, as already mentioned, do not expect your average speeds to increase.

Since you ride more than the average person and also go on long/hard organized rides (and I'm guessing you also go on long training rides alone), perhaps it is best to not go too low on the spoke count which may reduce your chances of having to call for a ride home if you run into problems like a broken spoke. You can still get a wheelset in the 1400 gram range with 24f/28r spokes.


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## cyclingsivells (Aug 1, 2012)

The wheels are Kinlin XR-300-Sapim spokes and superlight hubs from BikeHubStore. I should've said the bike is full carbon of course with Ultegra. I've been an athlete all my life and I'm very strong physically. Like I said, I've heard some different opinions on what kind of difference wheels will make. It's not like I'm spending a fortune on them. I just wanted to be able to cut some time off some of that long ass climb at Mount Mitchell!


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

cyclingsivells said:


> The wheels are Kinlin XR-300-Sapim spokes and superlight hubs from BikeHubStore. I should've said the bike is full carbon of course with Ultegra. I've been an athlete all my life and I'm very strong physically. Like I said, I've heard some different opinions on what kind of difference wheels will make. It's not like I'm spending a fortune on them. I just wanted to be able to cut some time off some of that long ass climb at Mount Mitchell!


That seems like a reasonable build. The XR-270 rim will save you a few more grams from the XR-300. It is also a little wider than the XR-300. The C472w is a nice rim to consider if you are okay with using 23mm wide rims. Maybe using Sapim Laser (or CX-Ray) spokes everywhere except for Sapim Race spokes on the rear drive side will be good for that wheelset. I would still recommend 24f/28r spokes (or at least 20f/28r spokes).


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I recently borrowed a set of Ksyrium wheels from a friend for some test rides. altho they were 300 g lighter than my normal Open Pro setup, other than being stiffer and producing a harsher ride, I really couldn't tell any differences in performance.

they didn't seem to accelerate or climb any better than the heavier set.

but, that evaluation didn't stop me from buying a set of wheels that are 400 g lighter.

sometimes you just want stuff...


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I would recommend the XR270 too. I believe it just might be more aero than the 300. It also blows around quite a bit less in the wind. They seem marginally less stiff, but at your weight its not an issue.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

What to expect depends on what you're coming from and what your experience is with other wheels. 

For example, I just switched from Open Pro rims laced 3x with old Ultegra hubs to a pair of HED Ardennes GP wheels. I felt faster, but that was most likely the new wheel effect. What I really noticed was by mile 30 of a 42 mile ride I also felt the stiffness in the HED's. I had done the same ride the weekend before with the old wheels and I could feel more road vibration and buzz through the HED wheels in my hands and feet than in the Open Pro wheels. The only other variable was I started riding two hours later so it was hotter. I even dropped the air pressure about 5lbs, but might have to drop it a bit more all the way down to 100lbs.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

vagabondcyclist said:


> What to expect depends on what you're coming from and what your experience is with other wheels.
> 
> For example, I just switched from Open Pro rims laced 3x with old Ultegra hubs to a pair of HED Ardennes GP wheels. I felt faster, but that was most likely the new wheel effect. What I really noticed was by mile 30 of a 42 mile ride I also felt the stiffness in the HED's. I had done the same ride the weekend before with the old wheels and I could feel more road vibration and buzz through the HED wheels in my hands and feet than in the Open Pro wheels. The only other variable was I started riding two hours later so it was hotter. I even dropped the air pressure about 5lbs, but might have to drop it a bit more all the way down to 100lbs.


Yeah, the HED rims are wider, giving considerably more volume, so would feel harder at the same pressure. HED says to drop pressure by 11% compared to conventional width rims.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Have a look at some comparison charts for wheels.

Have a look at the units of measurement. Pretty hilarious, IMHO.

Even dropping a kilo doesn't do all that much for total system weight, when the rider weighs, say, 68 kg.

There are some potential advantages to new wheels. If your old ones have a silly spoke pattern or crappy hubs, a conservative set of wheels (they can still be lighter, if you like) will have a much better service life. My nicer bike has 32-spoke 3-cross wheels with new Velocity Aerohead rims. The spokes and hubs are twelve years old, and in great shape. I appreciate it that I mostly just ride that bike, and very rarely have to mess around with it. I have to work on the off-road bikes enough as it is.

If you drop a bunch of weight, there is a change in handling feel. While it doesn't translate to much of anything quantifiable - see one of the above posts about saving a few seconds on an extended climb - it's kind of fun to ride a quicker-handling bike.

TBH, I haven't even bothered to swap tires on my most recent acquisition. Whether or not it's worth $340 is up to you.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Cant speak for anyones budget except mine. If 340 bucks isnt much money to you, Id suggest grabbing some new fun wheels. 

New bike stuff is fun.... 2000 gram wheels tend to not be so fun, even if they're really not slowing you down.


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## dealraker (Sep 1, 2010)

*Big difference*

I'm active on a similar subject today and I'll tell you that when I got my RS80 wheeset- an upgrade from the Roval Fusee 28 EL that came on my Specialized Roubaix Expert--- I felt and incredible difference. My average speed improved immediately by 1/2 mph on a couple of my routine rides. To me? Heck that is a bunch of increase.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

The snappy feeling of new, stiff wheels makes you want to push harder. The gain isnt really from the wheels.


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## Teo (Aug 10, 2004)

I like this thread. It confirms what I already felt, that lighter wheels don’t make a significant difference in overall speed, it’s just a placebo effect. Having said that I’m about ready to buy some light carbon wheels for my rig, cause as someone already mentioned, it’s fun to buy new stuff.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Not likely*



dealraker said:


> I'm active on a similar subject today and I'll tell you that when I got my RS80 wheeset- an upgrade from the Roval Fusee 28 EL that came on my Specialized Roubaix Expert--- I felt and incredible difference. My average speed improved immediately by 1/2 mph on a couple of my routine rides. To me? Heck that is a bunch of increase.


Given that the fastest wheels on the planet are good for 0.4 mph at 25 mph, it is unlikely that your wheels alone were better than that. Just saying.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> Given that the fastest wheels on the planet are good for 0.4 mph at 25 mph, it is unlikely that your wheels alone were better than that. Just saying.


Dammit, now you're making me want some really expensive wheels to put on my track bike.

Maybe after I get the silly helmet. And drop my stem a little further. But they're better than shoe covers and skin suits still, right? I must dominate Cat. 4!


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## dealraker (Sep 1, 2010)

*Our "scientific" test*

We did this repeatedly on the same hill- I'm laughing when I write this cause I sure as hell don't know nuthin' about wheels or how to test them.

We, that's my 4 normal co-riders, stood around at the top of a large hill where I live (at the start of our private bike trail)- a very smooth paved road. We got on the bike (all got on the same bike) and rolled down the hill. We recorded the top speed and the stopping point on the following upgrade. We all did one wheelset; changed the wheelset; then did it on the 2nd wheelset.

The RS80 went significantly faster and futher up the next up-hill each and every time than the stock wheelset on the bike which was the Roval El 28 Fusee. We were all surprised by both the speed difference and the roll distance.

That's all! Ha! I had no axe in the game other than looking for entertainment and stimulation.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

I've ridden those Bontrager Race wheels... A decent set of lighter weight wheels, ~1400 grams like you mention, will be a really nice upgrade. They will accelerate faster, and the extra stiffness for climbing is nice as well.


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## BicycleBastard (Mar 5, 2011)

First major purchase for me this year was a new set of wheels (handbuilts). I chose the componentry with the intent of making a light and stiff set of racing wheels that would be ideal for a crit. What I got was exactly what I had hoped for. Did I see any significant increase in average speed over the course of a 25m ride? No. 
But the wheels are lighter, the hubs are better and they role smoothly for days. The wheels corner like a dream and are so responsive in hard efforts. 

All of that might just be my imagination but I think otherwise. A solid set of wheels built with quality parts cant be beat on performance.


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## bevo21 (Dec 9, 2010)

I builded a set Kinlin 300 BHS hubs as replacement for my Fulcrum F5 set. Just for fun, I like the 16+8 spoke pattern of the Fulcrum so I build them that way. 24spokes rear DT comp, front 20 blade spokes. In the front I got the SL125 instead of a 79, I think this one is going to be used more often as the rear, an aero is significant at the front. My set weighs, with brass nipples 1540 gr. so I think there is not much left for spokes, I guess you want to use 16 and 20? But I think you have to use the XR270 to get to 1400 gr. 
In fact I don't feel much difference between the Fulcrum and my Kinlin set, but it was fun building it.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

danl1 said:


> Yeah, the HED rims are wider, giving considerably more volume, so would feel harder at the same pressure. HED says to drop pressure by 11% compared to conventional width rims.


They feel harder because there is less sidewall give on a wide rim... so you need to reduce pressure to preserve the ride smoothness.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

dealraker said:


> We did this repeatedly on the same hill


Same tires and tubes? Check the bearings in the Rovals... smooth and properly adjusted? 

I'd be interested in the numbers you got.


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## giosblue (Aug 2, 2009)

I'm as guilty as anyone else when it come to buying new stuff to make me "faster" and "climb" better.
But it doesn't work, not for me anyway. I know it's been said time and time again on these forums but if you want to go faster and climb better, TRAIN HARDER.
*
There is no other way,*

It's nice having good lightweight gear though if you can afford it, it makes you feel good on the bike.
and you have to perform otherwise your club mates will take the p&ss.


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## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

Best way to describe the difference is this: If you wear heavy boots and switch to running shoes you feel the difference right away, but after a while the difference sort of fades away.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

the bontrager race wheelset have probably have 480-500 gram rims. the xr300 will be around 465grams +/-. not alot of difference there. What would help is the tire/tube weight combo. try to go sub 200gram rear tire and a continental supersonic tire on the front along with 50gram inner tubes. that will also shave some weight.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

cmg said:


> a continental supersonic tire on the front along with 50gram inner tubes. that will also shave some weight.


That's the setup I use f&r on a smooth indoor board velodrome and wouldn't dare use that 160 gram tire on the open road - not unless it was a special occasion and there was a lot at stake anyway. Do you have experience with this tire on the road?


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## jonshonda (Oct 23, 2011)

I had wheels built for me because the difference was me riding home instead of walking!!


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I used to have a Trek 5200. I think that the biggest issue is the fork for most people. Carbon fork with aluminum steerer on a $3,000 bike. I remember noticing that when I was in the market for a new bike. Never thought about it while owning mine, but it bothered me after looking around. Wheels are great to upgrade but I know for sure that your bike has a heavy fork.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Do you have experience with this tire on the road?


I do. I'm currently running one on the front, and have done so in the past. The only flats I've gotten are from tiny wires going through... maybe 1 per 2k miles or so. They don't seem to pick up glass much. They seems less prone to cuts and punctures than the high tpi tires IME. 

It is the same casing as the GP4000 sans vectran belt, and with much thinner tread. But if you don't skid the front tire the tread lasts fine.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> I do. I'm currently running one on the front, and have done so in the past. The only flats I've gotten are from tiny wires going through... maybe 1 per 2k miles or so. They don't seem to pick up glass much. They seems less prone to cuts and punctures than the high tpi tires IME.
> 
> It is the same casing as the GP4000 sans vectran belt, and with much thinner tread. But if you don't skid the front tire the tread lasts fine.


Do you use them for everyday riding or special occasions? Personally I wouldn't use something so light as nothing I do is that important. I use Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX as everyday road tires as I think life's too short to ride around on cheap stuff.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

All the time. 

IME they are more less prone to cuts and punctures on the front than the tires you are using... but the tread is too thin to use them on the back for everyday.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> IME they are more less prone to cuts and punctures on the front than the tires you are using... but the tread is too thin to use them on the back for everyday.


Oh heck I'd wear the Contis down to the threads then as I sidelined my first Vittoria due to a cut in 4 years of using them this week.


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## sramred (May 26, 2012)

go for the new wheels. whatever they may be. 

Everyone will soon see that those people who say: upgraded wheels don't make you go faster. its placebo, its new wheel effect, etc... all have upgraded, lightweight wheels


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Oh heck I'd wear the Contis down to the threads then as I sidelined my first Vittoria due to a cut in 4 years of using them this week.


Vittorias, Challenge, Veloflex... all suffered huge cuts and had to be tossed long before the tread wore out.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> Vittorias, Challenge, Veloflex... all suffered huge cuts and had to be tossed long before the tread wore out.


I just can't imagine what would be so special about the Conti Supersonic rubber over those tires that would lead to less tread cuts.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

The Black Chili compound is really good stuff. But I think it is mostly the casing being easily cut on the other tires. The cuts were all the way through the casing and hard to fix... I don't toss tires for tread cuts.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> The Black Chili compound is really good stuff.


Could be. It certainly wears well on the velodrome (only place I've used 'em) and of course there is no chance of cuts there. We do have to sand smooth tires off though or they will slide  Nice rough 80-grit works best.

Maybe I'll try some 4000s if I see a sale (usually on UK mailorder sites).



> But I think it is mostly the casing being easily cut on the other tires. The cuts were all the way through the casing and hard to fix... I don't toss tires for tread cuts.


I got my first casing cut prompting this recent tire change. I didn't get a flat but I saw a 1/8" slit and found a lesser slit on the inside too. The slit casing threads caused a bit of casing bulge.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

sramred said:


> go for the new wheels. whatever they may be.
> 
> Everyone will soon see that those people who say: upgraded wheels don't make you go faster. its placebo, its new wheel effect, etc... all have upgraded, lightweight wheels


These days, we're really not talking about opinion... its a well proven fact just how much benefit you're getting out of wheels. Theres been tons of sources running tests, and the results are always the same.

I dont think my 24/28 1550g wheels are unusually light.


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## r.shoemaker78 (Feb 23, 2012)

I am definitely buying a new set of light weight wheels no matter what the tests say. My old Ritchey DS comp rear hub is getting questionable after years of commuting, riding and plain old abuse. They flex enough to rub on my rear brake when really pushing it up a hill out of the saddle. The braking surface is grooved and probably very thin at this point, they are 20/24 and have only needed a truing once on the rear...well it could use another truing now. 

I'm looking at getting a set of Stan's 340's build up with Sapin CX-rays and American Classic hubs. Will probably do a 20/28 just to keep the rear wheel a little more rigid on the climbs (I have to climb a lot around these parts). This build-up will save me almost 600 grams exactly and I still find it hard I won't notice a change in performance. I'm not expecting a massive gain by any means but 600 grams, mostly in the rims on a ride like the Triple Bypass, has to show something, even if it's just being a little stronger at the end. Not to mention I want the better handling of the wider rims.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

sramred said:


> go for the new wheels. whatever they may be.
> 
> Everyone will soon see that those people who say: upgraded wheels don't make you go faster. its placebo, its new wheel effect, etc... all have upgraded, lightweight wheels


Ya got me. I replaced the 36-spoke stock wheels on my MTB with some 32-spoke wheels. I wanted better handling and I got it. If it's made me a faster rider on technical terrain, it's too small a difference to quantify, though. Not like I went out and PR'd a bunch of stuff after getting them.

My other bikes have their stock wheels if those have survived, and other 32- (or 36- on my commuter, cannibalized the hub from my MTB's old wheel) spoke wheels if they haven't.

I do wish bikes came with 32-spoke wheels on sensible hubs. The commuter is a Trek Portland that came with 24-spoke trash. I found cracking around the spoke holes on the rear rim, hence the replacement.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I do wish bikes came with 32-spoke wheels on sensible hubs.


Look at all the 'I want light wheels, what should I buy' threads in this sub-forum. No one wants 32h wheels any more 'cept us olde phartes. We remember when EVERYbody was riding 32h or 36h wheels and 28h wheels were scary light.

Remember when Heliums first came out?!

Sadly, the days of well-built, long-lasting wheels are on the wane. Bling is in, what people should *really* be riding is out. 

I train on 32h wheels about 95% of the time. My oldest pair of wheels is older than some of the guys I ride with!

M


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

MShaw said:


> Look at all the 'I want light wheels, what should I buy' threads in this sub-forum. No one wants 32h wheels any more 'cept us olde phartes. We remember when EVERYbody was riding 32h or 36h wheels and 28h wheels were scary light.


my first 700c bike came with 36h wheels...I was blown away by how light they were compared to the junker bikes I had previously...taking the front wheel off for the first time, it almost seemed to float.

when I upgraded bikes, the new one came with 32h wheels...even better...

been on Mavic OP 32h for ages now, but just bought some DA wheels with 16 / 20h.

so, we'll see...not selling the Mavics until I'm positive the DAs are durable.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

MShaw said:


> Look at all the 'I want light wheels, what should I buy' threads in this sub-forum. No one wants 32h wheels any more 'cept us olde phartes. We remember when EVERYbody was riding 32h or 36h wheels and 28h wheels were scary light.


I'm not even old! I'm 31. I just don't want to buy the same thing repeatedly, especially if it's pointless. It's not like I'm going to win a training ride.

I mostly try to stay out of the "I want light wheels" threads. I get a kick out of showing those guys my seatstays when I do the occasional organized ride. Even if I know that it doesn't make a difference.

I do find myself lusting for some racier wheels for the track bike, though...


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

"a set of Stan's 340's build up with Sapin CX-rays and American Classic hubs. Will probably do a 20/28 just to keep the rear wheel a little more rigid on the climbs (I have to climb a lot around these parts)." i did this except i copied my sprint 350s using BHS hubs, went to a 28 front, 32 rear spoke setup. they have been great. if your over 180 lbs you might consider. 

on using a conti supersonic as a front tire. mine have above 1200 miles on them. all 5 bikes have this setup. flat no more frequently than anything else. coupled that with 50gram inner tubes and it's a light easy to spin wheel. tried to run one as a rear and went through it pretty quick. i ride farm market roads, rarely in the shoulder, always on top of the white line. stay away from where the glass/debris may be.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

sramred said:


> go for the new wheels. whatever they may be.
> 
> Everyone will soon see that those people who say: upgraded wheels don't make you go faster. its placebo, its new wheel effect, etc... all have upgraded, lightweight wheels


I know you're trying to emphasize a contradiction here, but there really isn't one. The *speed* advantage of one type of wheel over another is relatively small. Because of this it's *typically* not something *you* can objectively notice. If *everything* was the same except the wheel itself (rim, spokes, hubs), you covered your ears (aero wheels make a distinct sound), and couldn't look... you would probably would not know if your $100 wheels were faster than your $3000 wheels. That doesn't mean there isn't an advantage, and that doesn't mean there's no reason to just have nice things either. 

Common differences noticed:

1) The bike feels smoother... because the tires are different (maybe a different tire width)
2) The bike feels nicer... because the PSI in the tires is different
3) You finished your loop faster... because you're putting in an extra effort
3) You finished your loop faster... because the wind conditions are ideal
4) You're rolling with less effort... because of a tailwind
5) You're going faster... well you don't actually know, but you think you should be... so why not, you are!
6) Riding seems easier... because you're excited about new wheels
7) The above 1-6 in any permutation


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

Once you are fit better wheels make a massive difference. I think of wheels like speakers for audiophiles and lenses for photographers. 

As you get stronger you can really tell the difference. On a rolling 30km TT route, zipp 606 wheels added 4 kph to my avg speed. And these were the old bonded alum clincher version that weighed a lot. 

For me that was a 7-8 min difference!


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## vivid (Jun 1, 2012)

Cableguy said:


> you would probably would not know if your $100 wheels were faster than your $3000 wheels. That doesn't mean there isn't an advantage, and that doesn't mean there's no reason to just have nice things either.
> 
> Common differences noticed:
> 
> ...


I'm in the same boat as the OP. I have an OEM Bontrager Race 1910g wheelset and was thinking about upgrading. From this thread I am second guessing that. Noting your post in particular, it seems that controllable elements like tires, pressure make more difference than the wheels themselves.

You also state that there could be an advantage with nicer wheels and there is a reason to have nicer wheels. But from your points above, and counter points, I don't see why people get nicer wheels... Or rather why I should get nicer wheels.

Don't get me wrong I was not expecting miracles from lighter more aero wheels but many here are saying there is little to no performance benefit from them. So why do some pay $500-$3000 for performance wheels, if it's just a placebo effect, or are we all sucked into the marketing of wheels.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

No placebo effect. I sold the wheels after that one ride (long story, but essentially the wheels were worth more than I paid for the whole bike, so it was an opportunity to get a free bike) and have never come close to my record on that loop again in 6 years of trying (with normal wheels). I have 2nd place on that loop in strava, with the zipps I would own first by a huge margin.

I share that loop with every TT and Tri person in the city it seems, so I assume the first place dude did the loop on an aero bike.

Needless to say, as I build my Leo TT bike a set of aero wheels is top of the shopping list.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

vivid said:


> But from your points above, and counter points, I don't see why people get nicer wheels... Or rather why I should get nicer wheels
> 
> So why do some pay $500-$3000 for performance wheels, if it's just a placebo effect, or are we all sucked into the marketing of wheels.


There is an advantage to be had with high end wheels, but you should have a realistic expectation on what that performance benefit is. The difference will not increase the average speed of your rides by a large margin, but it can give you an edge. For professionals, especially, this can be very valuable. If you're just looking to improve the *quality* of your ride, I would recommend first checking that you're inflating your tires to the proper PSI (usually it's way too high) and then looking into a new set of quality tires. I highly recommend 25mm tires as opposed to 23mm.

A lot of the marketing really is just hype, and the part that's factual is usually based on exagerrated wind tunnel tests simulating super human speeds of 30mph. It is true that with aero gear an amateur will save more total time riding 25 miles than a pro... but the amateur also gains a lot less speed for the same duration of time. In other words, it's even harder to tell any difference.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

vivid said:


> So why do some pay $500-$3000 for performance wheels, if it's just a placebo effect, or are we all sucked into the marketing of wheels.


Marketing and fashion is so massive in road biking. Take mavics Ksyriums for example. They've proven over and over to be some of the worst performing wheels on the market, yet if you go out on the road you'll see them everywhere. 

A 32 spoke wheel built around a shimano hub is cheaper, higher performing, and more durable... but if you go out you hardly see anyone on wheels like that. Tons of riders dont want to be the odd man out and have "dated" wheels, even if they're better.

But again, the difference between the worst and best is marginal, and some factory wheels are pretty durable. People buying into fashion and marketing really doesnt matter when it comes to performance.

Its a lot like buying a nice watch instead of a 25 dollar plastic one.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

I will say that once you hit 25mph and faster, the aero wheels make more of a difference. You CAN go faster faster with say Zipps than on Open Pro style wheels. Fastest wheels I think I've ridden were some first gen Shamals, but they took some doing to get em going fast. WAY heavy rims.

IME 25-ish mph seems to be the 'break even' point. 

I'll ride my circa 04 Ritchey Pro aero wheels on the Wed night ride and its noticeable when I switch out to my WCS Zetas. Even more noticeable was last nite's loop on some 28c Gatorskins. Talk about slow-rolling tires! 

Typically when I know I'm going out with the fast guys, I'll ride my Ritcheys. 
If I'm JRA I'm on 32h wheels. Either Reflex Ceramics, a mixed pair of Omega XL/Mistral box-sections, or A23s. 
If I'm out doing sprints or other 'flail about on the bike' type rides, I'm definitely on 32h wheels. 
Intervals? Depends on what wheels are on the bike when I go out.

To the poster looking for fast track wheels: do it. It certainly helped me keep up with guys like Shaun Wallace, et al. Didn't help me enough to actually beat em, but I could keep up till it got going close to their limits (which were WELL past mine!) My pair were built on some Superbe Pro 24/24 hubs with now-old-but-new-at-the-time (non-toroidal) Zipp 440 rims. 

M


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

MShaw said:


> I will say that once you hit 25mph and faster, the aero wheels make more of a difference. You CAN go faster faster with say Zipps than on Open Pro style wheels. Fastest wheels I think I've ridden were some first gen Shamals, but they took some doing to get em going fast. WAY heavy rims.
> 
> IME 25-ish mph seems to be the 'break even' point.
> 
> ...


IIRC aero is aero at 1mph or 35mph. The percentage gain is the same while the absolute difference is higher at higher speeds. No?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> IIRC aero is aero at 1mph or 35mph. The percentage gain is the same while the absolute difference is higher at higher speeds. No?


I would say this is not true. As speed increases, the proportion of resistance from air increases non-linearly. For example while going 10mph, the wind may account for say 20% of the resistance... at 30mph, it would no longer be 20% but instead more like 90%.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Cableguy said:


> I would say this is not true. As speed increases, the proportion of resistance from air increases non-linearly. For example while going 10mph, the wind may account for say 20% of the resistance... at 30mph, it would no longer be 20% but instead more like 90%.


I've read power to overcome the aerodynamic drag of wheels, mass and inertia of said wheels is approximately 10% of the total power required to overcome total system drag: rider drag, frame drag, rolling resistance, wheel inertia and bike/rider inertia. So 10% of 250W is 25. 10% of 300W is 30 etc...The % is the same but the absolute power to overcome wheel drag obviously goes up as drag is proportional to the square of speed while power required to overcome drag is proportional to the cube of speed. In other words to go twice as fast it will take 4X the power yet the drag produced by the wheels still remains 10%.

Difference between aero wheels (not disc) and a 32 spoke box might be 1%. I'll try and find the article but 1% of 10% of the total power required to overcome drag at even relatively high power is pretty small. So again, unless I'm interpreting this completely wrong, aerodynamic benefits occur once air starts to flow over the wheel. We just are not able to notice any difference until relatively high speeds that require relatively high power to maintain.

To me what is important is the total system...wheels, frame, shoe covers, clothes, position, tires, etc...it all adds up to a noticeable amount but any one of those, not so much. Debating whether or not someone deserves any particular wheel is pointless. If you have the money and like the looks of a set then buy them. What I see in many threads are folks under the impression that a 60mm carbon set is going to make a huge difference (whatever that means to them). Fact is the depth of the rim while helpful is pretty small. I spend more time worrying about finding fast tires and running proper pressure as far as wheels go. Actually I don't spend much time worrying about it anymore. Nutrition, rest, hydration and training adaptation are vastly more important to me.



Just my opinion.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

30 mph is hardly superhuman. I did it last night, and I'm only Cat. 4 at the track. People hit speeds higher than that trying to win sprints, trying to bridge, maybe just trying to screw with the other people in the field. People TT at 25 and up. Human people. Amateurs.

It's all about what someone's use and expectations are. So many of these threads are people with a few pounds to lose (I could stand to drop 15 too) who started road cycling last week and "might" do a triathlon. Is that person going to notice a difference? Well, if the wheels look cool to them, sure. I just don't think that a stopwatch will support that difference on most rides that person does in real life. Certainly if they're normalized for power output, to spot the placebo effect.

When someone who's nearing their potential as a cyclist and mixing it up in their races thinks about fancier equipment, my instinct is that even a fairly small quantitative return could get them some results that are worth it to them. If not, at least there's the boost of showing up at a gunfight with a gun.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

AndrwSwitch said:


> When someone who's nearing their potential as a cyclist and mixing it up in their races thinks about fancier equipment, my instinct is that even a fairly small quantitative return could get them some results that are worth it to them. If not, at least there's the boost of showing up at a gunfight with a gun.


I completely agree. At a certain point you hit a plateau, and equipment can help you past it.

For me that was about 18-20mph on my favourite route and ZIPPs got me to 21.75. At my level that difference was massive.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

AndrwSwitch said:


> 30 mph is hardly superhuman. I did it last night, and I'm only Cat. 4 at the track. People hit speeds higher than that trying to win sprints, trying to bridge, maybe just trying to screw with the other people in the field. People TT at 25 and up. Human people. Amateurs.
> 
> When someone who's nearing their potential as a cyclist and mixing it up in their races thinks about fancier equipment, my instinct is that even a fairly small quantitative return could get them some results that are worth it to them. If not, at least there's the boost of showing up at a gunfight with a gun.


Anecdotal evidence on my part sez that my aero wheels used to let me ride one gear harder/faster for a given perceived effort vs 32h wheels. When you're groveling in the gutter at 35mph that extra little bit helps immensely. 

As with everything YMMV

M


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

It's funny...

when all my competition was cyclocross and MTB, it was a lot easier to be dismissive of fancy wheels. It's pretty easy to do some quick calculations and determine that on a training ride, they make almost no difference and besides, it's a training ride. You can't win a training ride. I do have to admit to a fair pile of tires in my closet for the off-road competition bikes, though...

I'm having tons of fun with track this season. And I'm also starting to wonder about skin suits and track helmets and stuff. Might even do the superhero suit with my next team order, I could stand to have two current-year kits and they're supposed to be an even bigger swing in drag than wheels and helmets. (Seems strange to me, but whatever.)


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> 30 mph is hardly superhuman. I did it last night, and I'm only Cat. 4 at the track. People hit speeds higher than that trying to win sprints, trying to bridge, maybe just trying to screw with the other people in the field. People TT at 25 and up. Human people. Amateurs.


Getting *up to* 30mph on the track is an entirely different story from averaging it for extended periods. Also, there is a huge difference between the wind resistance and required wattage at 25mph vs 30mph. Lastly, the *average* amateur on these forums probably TTs below 22mph. By the way I just want to clarify I'm talking about "human people" (couldn't resist )


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

My point is that when people start making general assumptions about the group of RBR readers, often they're way too broad. I agree that a lot of posters here probably can't hold 30 mph for any length of time or TT at 22 mph. But there are plenty of posters who can. It seems like when I start getting really jaded, someone pops up saying, "bla bla bla, cat. 2, upgrade points, up my game, bla bla bla," and I'm reminded that there are a lot more fast people out there, and right here on the forums, than it sometimes feels like. Make no mistake, I'm very much not putting myself in the group of fast riders. I get to see them regularly. I know that "fast" is a lot faster than I am. Maybe next year...

So maybe these guys are outside one standard deviation of the average poster. That doesn't mean they never ask about wheels.


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## sramred (May 26, 2012)

if you disagree with this statement: "expensive/lightweight wheels make you faster" please post what wheels you are using and how much they're worth, market value. This includes all those people that quoted and replied saying that i'm wrong.

I bet most (50%+) of the wheels will cost over $500

i DO believe that lighter wheels will make you faster. Its only science. less weight = more faster. If new wheels can make my avg speed 1 mph faster, i'll be able to finish a century in ~1.5 hours faster with the same training. i'll be able to edge out a few competitors by a few seconds in a time trial. i'll be able to get up that steep 1 mile climb 30 seconds faster. Being able to turn around and watch the guy with heavier wheels suffer for 30 seconds makes it worth it.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

If you averaged 10mph, and gained 1mph from wheels, you'd save 54 minutes. If you averaged 15, you'd save 25 minutes.

.. but you wont gain 1mph. Going from the worst to best, you can potentially pickup about 0.4mph. You've now got a 10 minute gain, over more than 6.5 hours. If you're faster than that, its even less.

Also you wont get that 0.4 gain consistently, and you'll largely get it from using (heavy) aero wheels. Over a 100 mile course, you might even go slower on the flats with super light wheels, or while descending. 

It really is just science. On the pro level, 10 seconds might mean winning. For the rest of us, natural inconsistency is bigger than the gain you'll get.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

sramred said:


> if you disagree with this statement: "expensive/lightweight wheels make you faster" please post what wheels you are using and how much they're worth, market value. This includes all those people that quoted and replied saying that i'm wrong.


Some people like nice stuff. That doesnt mean they're fooling themselves about why they're buying it.


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## sramred (May 26, 2012)

TomH said:


> Some people like nice stuff. That doesnt mean they're fooling themselves about why they're buying it.


so since you're telling everyone on the forum that expensive/lightweight wheels do not make you go faster, and may actually make you even go slower (if your entire loop is downhill) lets see some pics and description of your wheels. 

I'll start it off
i ride sram s30. i got them for $568 from PBK 2 years ago. they weigh 1550g, they're 30mm deep with an aero profile. i upgraded from mavic aksiums which were 1950-2000g and had poor aerodynamics. i immediately got faster. and never slowed down after that. my avg speed went up 1-2mph, i remember i was able to go faster uphills and wasn't as tired after climbing the same hills with old wheels. call it placebo/new wheel effect, i know what that is, it may have contributed, but i also know if i put 1lb of sand inside of your tires you'd climb hills slower too. S30 AL Sprint Wheelset | SRAM


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

sramred said:


> so since you're telling everyone on the forum that expensive/lightweight wheels do not make you go faster, and may actually make you even go slower (if your entire loop is downhill) lets see some pics and description of your wheels.


Again, I dont get where you're going with this. Its kind of stating the obvious that bicycles need wheels, so yes.. we all have wheels on our bike. 










Kinlin 30's, about 1550g. I got tired of my unreliable low spoke count stock wheels and built something that I knew I could ride every day and not worry about it. It happened to save a pound, and the bike goes no faster.

Funny that you bring up filling your tires with something heavy... because someone did just that!
How much time does extra weight cost on Alpe d

Its been criticized that the nature of water itself would make the bike slower, so the test might be slower than having simply heavier rims, so its the worst case scenario... and its not much time at all. Its a climbing test too, where lightweight wheels are said to make the most difference.

Adding 1800 grams, or almost 4 pounds to a bike in slow rolling tire weight, added a little under 2 minutes to a big climb.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Nice wheels Tom. What are the other specs and how much do you weigh?


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

The rear wheel is basically a boyd wheel. The front is similar with a heavier duty hub. 24/28 and sapim races. Rode them from 220lb down to 185 now. I would have used more spokes if I used a different rim, but the kinlin 30's are monsters. 

Im a pretty bad wheel abuser and have a bunny hopping problem  They take it though.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

TomH said:


> The rear wheel is basically a boyd wheel. The front is similar with a heavier duty hub. 24/28 and sapim races. Rode them from 220lb down to 185 now. I would have used more spokes if I used a different rim, but the kinlin 30's are monsters.
> 
> Im a pretty bad wheel abuser and have a bunny hopping problem  They take it though.


Thanks Tom. I go between 180 and 190lbs and am looking for a good set of rims to build into a Power Tap wheel for training and somtimes racing. I need it to have a 30mm rim for a Wheel Builder disc cover for TTs.


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## sramred (May 26, 2012)

kinlins with 20/24 are good wheels. at 1550, they're great wheels for those looking for something to train on, something to do centuries on, and group rides on. they're better in every aspect compared to those who bought bikes that come with wheels such as the Mavic Aksiums, Shimano RS10, Shimano R500, (entry level wheels who's MSRP is under $200) 

Those with entry level wheels can get what TomH has and will be able to enjoy riding more and riding faster. 

Why TomH doesn't ride aksiums since they're cheaper (who doesn't want to save $$) and they're the same speed as his current wheels, confuses me...


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

sramred said:


> Why TomH doesn't ride aksiums since they're cheaper (who doesn't want to save $$) and they're the same speed as his current wheels, confuses me...


I got this Tom. 
Because Mavics hubs suck.
If you break a spoke you have to get special order expensive Mavic spoke that who knows how long it will take to get them.
And, he has the knowledge, skill and pride to build his own wheels. So why would he buy some crappy Mavic wheels?


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## sramred (May 26, 2012)

T K said:


> I got this Tom.
> Because Mavics hubs suck.
> If you break a spoke you have to get special order expensive Mavic spoke that who knows how long it will take to get them.
> And, he has the knowledge, skill and pride to build his own wheels. So why would he buy some crappy Mavic wheels?


right, for ease of maintenance, thats why he got 1550g kinlin 300 rims.
but why didn't he get cheaper (than the kinlin 300) since he is saying that heavy wheels don't make you slower. 

for all others who don't agree with me (that more expensive/lighter wheels DO make you faster) please post your wheels...


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Why are you trying to make this black and white?

I think that everybody accepts that wheels have the potential to make a bike a little more efficient. The real question is whether it's significant or not.

My opinion is that outside of competition, it's not enough of a difference to be worth throwing money at.

I'm at five bikes right now. In order of bike seniority, the wheels on them are
Velocity Aeroheads (after wearing out the stock rims) on 105 hubs, 32-spoke and 3-cross (I've raced this bike, but usually just train on it.)
Sun DS1-XCs on DT 370 hubs, 32-spoke and 3-cross (this is one of the bikes I race the most.)
Mismatched Alex (probably) rim and Shimano Parallax front hub, 32-spoke and 3-cross, Weinmann LP-something rear rim and Shimano Tiagra rear hub, 32-spoke and 3-cross. This is on my cyclocross bike, and I thought I'd probably break another rear wheel before wearing out the rim, so didn't spend a lot of money when I last had to rebuild the rear wheel.
Mismatched crappy Trek low spoke-count front - an OEM wheel - and Mavic CXP33 on a Shimano M-475 rear, 36-spoke, 3-cross. After finding cracks in the previous rear rim.
"Freedom" rims on Formula sealed bearing hubs, 32-spoke and 3-cross. This is on my track bike, and if next year is cooperative with me continuing to race on the track, I may throw some money at the bike, or maybe just replace the whole thing.

The biggest thing that influences how fast I can make my bikes go is how busy I am. When the economy took a dump and I was out of work for a while, I was really fast. This winter, I was doing a partial differential equations class, and while I find that I'm at least not slower than last year, I'm definitely not faster either. The DS1-XCs are an upgrade, I was hoping that having a quicker-handling mountain bike might translate into being able to get around a course a little faster. I didn't notice any sudden changes in my times, but I do like the lighter feel. The others only have things other than OEM wheels as maintenance decisions.

My attitude is that on a training bike, it's rather silly to throw money at "fastering" it. On my competition bikes, I'm more likely to, but I need to believe that it will "faster" the bike and have a justification as to why. The Aeroheads are a bit lighter than the CXP 21s they replaced, I believe. Coincidentally enough, they also have the same BSD and are available through a hookup I have that can't do anything for me on Mavics.

Even though I believe it doesn't make a significant difference, there's a part of me that gets a bit of a kick out of showing my cheap aluminum and aging steel seatstays to people who are impressed by technology.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

sramred said:


> right, for ease of maintenance, thats why he got 1550g kinlin 300 rims.
> but why didn't he get cheaper (than the kinlin 300) since he is saying that heavy wheels don't make you slower.
> 
> for all others who don't agree with me (that more expensive/lighter wheels DO make you faster) please post your wheels...


Because I wanted strong wheels. You also have no idea what my wheels cost


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

I slapped my new wheels on and did the first ride on them on Saturday. Exactly 1 lb lighter than my old wheels. 25 miles of rolling hills and my avg MPH was exactly the same as my heavy wheels. lol...oh well, they look cooler.

I find that light wheels on my MTB make a huge difference but that's probably related to spinning them up quicker- since you come to almost a complete stop, several times, during the ride and then have to get back up to speed.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

sramred said:


> ...snip...
> i DO believe that lighter wheels will make you faster. Its only science. less weight = more faster. If new wheels can make my avg speed 1 mph faster, i'll be able to finish a century in ~1.5 hours faster with the same training. i'll be able to edge out a few competitors by a few seconds in a time trial. i'll be able to get up that steep 1 mile climb 30 seconds faster. Being able to turn around and watch the guy with heavier wheels suffer for 30 seconds makes it worth it.


Just curious, can you describe the wheel sets you compared to get the 1mph gain? Make, rim depth, tires, psi's, hubs, spokes? How did you hold power constant? What about wind?

All else being equal who wouldn't want lighter wheels? I enjoy lightweight wheels but that's not the only data point that is important to focus on ime/imo. If you are truly observing a 1mph gain in average speed v. another wheel set I think you are observing other variables in addition to weight. Tires, pressure, hubs and spokes all make a difference too.


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## sramred (May 26, 2012)

woodys737 said:


> Just curious, can you describe the wheel sets you compared to get the 1mph gain? Make, rim depth, tires, psi's, hubs, spokes? How did you hold power constant? What about wind?
> 
> All else being equal who wouldn't want lighter wheels? I enjoy lightweight wheels but that's not the only data point that is important to focus on ime/imo. If you are truly observing a 1mph gain in average speed v. another wheel set I think you are observing other variables in addition to weight. Tires, pressure, hubs and spokes all make a difference too.


old wheels: mavic aksium
new wheels: sram s30
psi: both at 100f, 115r
how did i hold power constant: by putting in the same effort in both training rides.
about wind: i'm not sure, you tell me about the wind on a ride you did a year or two years ago. on my last ride there was about 75% winds from the front and sides, 25% winds from the back.

i'm still looking for more data on: those who say that lightweight/expensive wheels don't make you faster to post what wheels they're using and how much they paid for them.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

cyclingsivells said:


> *What kind of a difference will wheels really make?*


Try riding a bike WITHOUT wheels and you'll see!

:thumbsup:


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

RJP Diver said:


> Try riding a bike WITHOUT wheels and you'll see!
> 
> :thumbsup:


I upgraded to a set of Zipp 404s and gained 20mph... never going to ride without wheels again!


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

Cableguy said:


> I upgraded to a set of Zipp 404s and gained 20mph... never going to ride without wheels again!


I experienced the same thing when I added pedals to my new Cervelo R3 last year - highly recommended!

:thumbsup:


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

sramred said:


> old wheels: mavic aksium
> new wheels: sram s30
> psi: both at 100f, 115r
> how did i hold power constant: by putting in the same effort in both training rides.
> ...


I realize a 1mph up to a 2mph (which is it?) increase in average speed when you switched from the Mavic Aksium (1735g box rim) to the SRAM s30 (1460g and 30mm) is what you believe happened. However the reality is with no consideration to using the same tires; no consideration to holding power constant other than by RPE which doesn't mean much; no consideration to wind direction, velocity and variability; no consideration to terrain; no thought regarding proper maintenance of hubs; your results can't be taken seriously.

I have two sets of 50mm carbon wheels one tubular and one CC and an aluminum Easton EA50 set. The tubular is a Planet X Team edition at 1250g. $550 from Planet X USA. Chosen hubs and Sapim CX ray spokes. The CC is an older Bontrager Aeolus 5.0. Not sure of the weight. Maybe 1550g or so. DT Swiss Hubs. Paid $500 off CL. The EA50 is in the 1800-1900g range V2 hub. Paid $180 at a LBS years ago.

As best I can tell with the same tires from Vittoria (except opens for the clinchers) no wind, power observed with a Quarq, same pressure doing my best to maintain the same position on the bike to minimize aerodynamic variations, on the flats, same temperature...I was not able to detect more than 0.2mph between sets. I used a power that yielded approximately 25mph to try and make the differences a bit more noticeable.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

woodys737 said:


> As best I can tell with the same tires from Vittoria (except opens for the clinchers) no wind, power observed with a Quarq, same pressure doing my best to maintain the same position on the bike to minimize aerodynamic variations, on the flats, same temperature...I was not able to detect more than 0.2mph between sets. I used a power that yielded approximately 25mph to try and make the differences a bit more noticeable.


Your conclusion is spot on at 1% increase in speed.
These guys got similar results on their tests, pg.90, http://www.tour-magazin.de/services/qtr/epaper_4_2011/mobile.html#/page/86


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

sramred said:


> for all others who don't agree with me (that more expensive/lighter wheels DO make you faster) please post your wheels...


Lighter, more aero wheels, DO make you SLIGHTLY faster. 1+ mph is a ridiculous number. I changed from Velocity Fusions (28/32) to Reynolds DV46c UL and then to Zipp 404's. The difference felt big, but the change in the numbers was minimal. The Zipps were SLIGHTLY faster than the Reynolds, which actually felt faster than the Zipps. My next wheelsets? Probably HED C2's on King R45's...not because they will make me faster, I just like nice wheels.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

dcgriz said:


> Your conclusion is spot on at 1% increase in speed.
> These guys got similar results on their tests, pg.90, http://www.tour-magazin.de/services/qtr/epaper_4_2011/mobile.html#/page/86


You didn't read far enough. Check out P96 
http://www.tour-magazin.de/services/qtr/epaper_4_2011/index.html#/96 Results are a little further in.

I like that they have lots of different wheels in the tests. Some stuff we (in the US) can't get, but you can probably find something similar.

I didn't see the Smart-Enve stuff in either test. Wonder why.

M


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

MShaw said:


> You didn't read far enough. Check out P96
> http://www.tour-magazin.de/services/qtr/epaper_4_2011/index.html#/96 Results are a little further in.
> 
> I like that they have lots of different wheels in the tests. Some stuff we (in the US) can't get, but you can probably find something similar.
> ...


Lets see, the best aero wheel compared to the worst they tested, showed a time reduction of 4:46 minutes over a 132 miles course at an average speed of 22mph.

If your riding is at that level then by all means, the 808s are for you.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

4:46 minutes over a 132 mile course comes out to be... 0.23mph gain!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

TomH said:


> 4:46 minutes over a 132 mile course comes out to be... 0.23mph gain!


....which is about 1% increase over the average speed of 22 mph.......here's that 1% again....


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

TomH said:


> 4:46 minutes over a 132 mile course comes out to be... 0.23mph gain!


... but since nobody does 132 mile time trials, and your ability to draft and position yourself in the peloton outweighs wheel performance by 1000 to 1, your net speed gain remains a whopping 0.00 mph over a 684 mile course of flat to undulating to mountainous terrain.

That said, I will say that one of the worst wheel experiences I've ever had involved the use of stupid-light low profile carbon rims with 32 big, fat, wind-sucking spokes on each wheel. Whether I was simply out of gas after 70 miles, coming down with a virus, or just slow as molasses that day, I have never had more trouble in a flat race. Those wheels felt like quicksand, and they mentally wore me down for how often I had to wonder if my tire was flat or my brakes were rubbing. So, at the least, fast feeling wheels will at least make you stop worrying whether your equipment is slowing you down. You'll sleep well that night knowing you were really just slow as all bleep.


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