# LIVESTRONG Day



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

http://www.livestrongday.org/

Over $100,000 raised so far today. 


In contrast, Kimmage's legal fund has raised almost $50,000.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/02/livestrong-day-lance-armstrong

_The Livestrong Foundation may judge, perhaps correctly, that for the majority of the American public Armstrong's brand is still untarnished – and that only among cycling's relatively small fanbase is he a condemned man. The Livestrong Foundation may also assume, perhaps rightly, that its own brand is now independent of its progenitor's and effectively immune from whatever taint is there. It is a huge operation, undoubtedly does good work (with a notably high proportion of funds raised going in to actual programs, rather than admin and marketing), and most people who get involved probably have only a hazy, if any, idea of what Lance Armstrong and the recent controversy have to do with their cancer survivor work._


Do you dopers think they'll demand a refund after reading _The Secret Race_?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I still track my calories on Livestrong and record my weight there from time to time.


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## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> http://www.livestrongday.org/
> 
> Over $100,000 raised so far today.
> 
> ...


So a giant nonprofit with a staff and huge fund generating self promotion machine was able to raise _twice_ as much as a unemployed author who never asked anyone for any money.

What was your point again?


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## zero85ZEN (Oct 11, 2002)

Thanks for reminding me to donate....


I just gave $5 to Paul's defense fund. And I may give more.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I applaud those contributing to defense funds. I was a lawyer for about 40 years and recently retired. In my view I always like to see the lawyers get paid, no matter who the client. Keep the donations up! Oh I found my Livestrong bracelet and have it on. With both parents succumbing to cancer, I support that cause. I have ridden in Lance's rides and If I have a chance, I'll ride in some more. So far as doping, pro sports are rife with cheaters. For pro cycling this is just the doping era. Eddy, Indurain, il Pirata (fab rider) and so on and so forth doped too. Our era just had science take off. At least they are reeling them back in. As far as I am concerned anybody who has won anything in the last 20 years, or had a long domestique run (Hincappie?), or died of heart disease or suicide doped to the gills. Good that they're cleaning it up. I'm still a fan.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

goloso said:


> What was your point again?


My point was to hurt your feelings. And it worked. Zing! 

Just kidding. Did you really miss the point or are you just being rude? If you were unable to decipher the point from the italicized text in the original post of this thread I'll spell it out: Obviously Armstrong and Livestrong have taken a brutal blow from USADA's permaban. Those most passionate about Armtrong's doping are in the (small) cycling community. To most it is a non issue, especially those affected by cancer. 

And while many cycling fans on these boards have argued that Armstrong and Livestrong are finished I have not heard the death knell. Surely the man still has star power and Livestrong can still raise money, as demonstrated by $1000 dinners at Superfrog and Livestrong Day. 

I think Livestrong endurance events would be well attended. 

There is still public support for Armstrong: http://www.looktothestars.org/news/...ey-supports-lance-armstrong-on-livestrong-day

Whatever you think about Armstrong, you'll agree that the world will be a better place if fewer people die of lung cancer:
http://shakopee.patch.com/articles/...survivors-radon-testing-urged-for-minnesotans

And it seems that Livestrong is fighting the good fight. 




zero85ZEN said:


> Thanks for reminding me to donate....
> 
> 
> I just gave $5 to Paul's defense fund. And I may give more.


Nice. Next time donate $50,000 and really show them who's boss


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## tbgtbg (Mar 13, 2009)

David Loving said:


> As far as I am concerned anybody who has won anything in the last 20 years, or had a long domestique run (Hincappie?), or died of heart disease or suicide doped to the gills. Good that they're cleaning it up. I'm still a fan.


I concur... There is a saying, "We all prostitute ourselves for the money"... think about it.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Wouldn't surprise me if Lance himself donated to his own Livestrong to play the public relation machine. It's not that hard to manipulate those who want to be convinced.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

My father and both of my grandfathers died of cancer.

Two uncles died of heart disease and one died of aides.

My wifes nephew died of SIDS.

I'm a diabetic.

We all die of something, but that doesn't make it okay to cheat.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

velodog said:


> My father and both of my grandfathers died of cancer.
> 
> Two uncles died of heart disease and one died of aides.
> 
> ...


That is well said.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Saying it's ok that Lance cheated because of Livestrong is like saying that it's ok to rob a bank if you give all the money to charity.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

velodog said:


> my father and both of my grandfathers died of cancer.
> 
> Two uncles died of heart disease and one died of aides.
> 
> ...





fireform said:


> that is well said.



x200,000


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## Merc (Oct 9, 2011)

velodog said:


> My father and both of my grandfathers died of cancer.
> 
> Two uncles died of heart disease and one died of aides.
> 
> ...


I am truly sorry to hear of your family's loss. But, by Lance Armstrong withdrawing from arbitration proceedings does not mean that he has admitted to cheating to me. I still believe winning the Tour 7 years in a row is huge achievement.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

JoelS said:


> Saying it's ok that Lance cheated because of Livestrong is like saying that it's ok to rob a bank if you give all the money to charity.


Exactly! But, when you're completely in love with Lance Armstrong, it's really hard to understand or to accept that principle. :idea:


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

winning 7 tdf in a row is f'ing badass no matter what the circumstances. 

just don't look me in the eye and tell me you did not dope.

that's the issue imo


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Kudos for that.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Merc said:


> I am truly sorry to hear of your family's loss. But, by Lance Armstrong withdrawing from arbitration proceedings does not mean that he has admitted to cheating to me. I still believe winning the Tour 7 years in a row is huge achievement.


No need to be sorry for anything, it comes to us all.

But if I didn't tell you that I was a diabetic, I'd still be a diabetic.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

The only people that admitted doping are making money writing books! You don't really expect anybody else to admit anything, do you? Heck, even the lawyer on the USADA screening committee that got caught playing the randy lumberjack didn't admit his sexual violations in court. The doping era, that started probably with Eddy and those following his lead, should be a thing of the past with the increasing enforcement programs. It's dying out. All the winners in the last 20 years were dopers. Dopers racing dopers. Nobody is saying that is OK, at least that is what I am not saying. It's not OK to cheat. That's the way pro cycling was - and maybe still is. It's a matter of accepting reality. Hey, Barry Bonds doped too, but he still could really hit. I'm a lifelong cycling fan; and baseball, too.


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

David - Telling the truth is important. I do not expect everyone to do it. But it is still important.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Will everyone forgive Armstrong if he confesses?


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I used the lawyer example to illustrate that there's a lot of not telling the truth going around - and this is an election year, too! There's not going to be much telling the truth in these doping scandals - on either or all 3 or 4 sides. Truth is important. Of course it is important. To the several groups - all sides - in the doping scandals the axes each have to grind are more important to them than the truth, IMO. LA has his fantasy reputation; USADA seeks power; UCI seeks a rock to crawl under; the other business interests like the sponsors, the teams, the tours and stage races, and on and on want to make money and appear clean. Just sayin'


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

David - To summarize your post, you're just sayin' lots of folks are lying for lots of different reasons - right?

They're all weak, IMO.

Sometimes telling the truth is hard.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

BigDweeb said:


> David - To summarize your post, you're just sayin' lots of folks are lying for lots of different reasons - right?
> 
> They're all weak, IMO.
> 
> Sometimes telling the truth is hard.


It's always better to keep one's mouth shut. "Nothing pays off like restraint of pen and tongue," a famous author once wrote. I'm just trying to illustrate that LA is not the only liar. I doubt that many of the 'confessions' are true. Everybody's lying in this thing. Nobody seems to like each other either. They all have their fiefdoms to protect. This forum is home to the LA Haters, but in this doping circus, ain't nobody clean as I see it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Since we're talking about honesty and confessions, I'd like to confess something: 

Approximately seven hours ago the pledge/like/share page had collected just over $100,000, Now it is at $107,000. I'll confess that I expected more.


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

David - I disagree about keeping our mouths shut. Same as lying. We're all going to die naked and penniless. I'd hate to die knowing I was a faker. Our fiefdoms mean nothing in the end. It takes more courage to own up to the truth than winning a bicycle race. No, I'm not religious. And I'm a couple beers in but f'na man this sh!t has to mean something....


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Doping started with Eddy? You'd better read up. 

But the notion that Livestrong will come out squeaky clean is probably right. It's like Las Vegas, built on criminal activity but polished pretty. 

I've never donated to Livestrong. There are organizations supporting cancer research out there, you see.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Merc said:


> I am truly sorry to hear of your family's loss. But, by Lance Armstrong withdrawing from arbitration proceedings does not mean that he has admitted to cheating to me. I still believe winning the Tour 7 years in a row is huge achievement.


FWIW:

When I lived in San Diego there was a CHP officer that was convicted/found guilty of murdering a woman he had stopped back in the '80's.

He maintained that he was innocent from day one.


In 2004 the state of California gave Craig Peyer a chance to prove his innocence; They asked for a DNA sample to compare it with the DNA they found at the crime scene.

Guess what his response was? "No, thank you." 


At one of his parole hearings he was asked why he didn't submit a DNA sample to help prove his innocence. He just sat there and said nothing.

IMHO; His turning down the DNA test was a bigger conviction than the conviction he got in the murder trial.




Pharmstrong took the same road as Peyer did when it came time to prove his innocence.

I believe Pharmstrong even asked for arbitration, did he not? When it came time for that to happen, Pharmstrong said, "No, thank you." He got his chance to prove his innocence and he turned it down, just like Peyer.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

kbwh said:


> Doping started with Eddy? You'd better read up.


Correct.



The first doping scandal? 

The year 1896.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

David Loving said:


> ?..The doping era, that started probably with Eddy and those following his lead, should be a thing of the past with the increasing enforcement programs. It's dying out. All the winners in the last 20 years were dopers. Dopers racing dopers. Nobody is saying that is OK, at least that is what I am not saying. It's not OK to cheat. That's the way pro cycling was - and maybe still is. It's a matter of accepting reality. .


There have been riders taking unfair advantages since the inception of pro cycling, but EPO was the game changer, putting clear water between the users and those maybe sticking to the old fixes like amphetamine. I really would like to get past the apologist stance you are taking and accept a reality where, if you are caught and proved to be a doper, you are out for 5 years minimum. I don't see why I should accept the BS offered up as Pro cycling just because it might be entertaining.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Merc said:


> I am truly sorry to hear of your family's loss. But, by Lance Armstrong withdrawing from arbitration proceedings does not mean that he has admitted to cheating to me. I still believe winning the Tour 7 years in a row is huge achievement.


Dream on, best legal advice money could buy was "don't fight the charges and play the PR game". You just got played.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

BigDweeb said:


> winning 7 tdf in a row is f'ing badass no matter what the circumstances.
> 
> just don't look me in the eye and tell me you did not dope.
> 
> that's the issue imo


Cheating and lying is badass? Who knew?

A guy winning just 1 Tour clean is badass. Not the fakery that you hold so dear.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

goloso said:


> So a giant nonprofit with a staff and huge fund generating self promotion machine was able to raise _twice_ as much as a unemployed author who never asked anyone for any money.
> 
> What was your point again?


and in one case people clicked on a link and another (a non specified donor) paid a dollar. The other one they had to take out the wallet.....


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

Sir Duke - have you read my other posts?


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

cda 455 said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, human nature always prevails! Thank you, I'll adjust my dates backwards.


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

zero85ZEN said:


> Thanks for reminding me to donate....
> 
> 
> I just gave $5 to Paul's defense fund. And I may give more.


I sent my Livestrong bracelet to Kimmage...


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

sir duke said:


> There have been riders taking unfair advantages since the inception of pro cycling, but EPO was the game changer, putting clear water between the users and those maybe sticking to the old fixes like amphetamine.


I really wonder just how effective stuff like amphetamines and nitroglycerine were at "enhancing" performance in what's basically an endurance sport. Not sure that an artificially inflated heart rate is necessarily a good thing. Maybe it was more of a case of perception over actuality---if you think something helps you compete better, you compete better.

Blood doping wasn't banned until the mid-1080s. Even if Viren played cute about it, his countryman, Kaarlo Maaninka, did it fairly openly at the 1980 Moscow Olympics. That, really, was the first game changer in endurance sports. At a time of purely amateur competition in distance running, athletes from relatively flatland countries couldn't take months off from their jobs to train at altitude, which put them at a competitive disadvantage to the East Africans, and Americans who could train in the Rockies or Cascades. If a then-legal technique arose that gave them some sort of an equal footing against the mountain goats of the sport, can you really blame them, if there were no rules against it?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

BigDweeb said:


> Sir Duke - have you read my other posts?


No, are they badass?


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

Touche


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

mpre53 said:


> I really wonder just how effective stuff like amphetamines and nitroglycerine were at "enhancing" performance in what's basically an endurance sport. Not sure that an artificially inflated heart rate is necessarily a good thing. Maybe it was more of a case of perception over actuality---if you think something helps you compete better, you compete better.
> 
> Blood doping wasn't banned until the mid-1080s. Even if Viren played cute about it, his countryman, Kaarlo Maaninka, did it fairly openly at the 1980 Moscow Olympics. That, really, was the first game changer in endurance sports. At a time of purely amateur competition in distance running, athletes from relatively flatland countries couldn't take months off from their jobs to train at altitude, which put them at a competitive disadvantage to the East Africans, and Americans who could train in the Rockies or Cascades. If a then-legal technique arose that gave them some sort of an equal footing against the mountain goats of the sport, can you really blame them, if there were no rules against it?


Viren always had a cloud of suspicion around his 4 Olympic titles. He won hardly anything outside of those productive Olympic years. Guess he just had impeccable timing.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

velodog said:


> My father and both of my grandfathers died of cancer.
> 
> Two uncles died of heart disease and one died of aides.
> 
> ...


Cool, don't cheat then. Armstrong entertained the heck out of me, not a role model, an entertainer/athlete. What don't you haters get? You get your panties all in a wad 'cause this shmuck cheated. SO DID EVERYONE ELSE!! IN ALL SPORTS!!! Move on.......It's over. Hate is really unhealthy.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Taos Biker said:


> Cool, don't cheat then. Armstrong entertained the heck out of me, not a role model, an entertainer/athlete. What don't you haters get? You get your panties all in a wad 'cause this shmuck cheated. SO DID EVERYONE ELSE!! IN ALL SPORTS!!! Move on.......It's over. Hate is really unhealthy.


Hate? 'Haters' is a way overused word these days. 

Yeah, he cheated. So did others. The problem then is that it's not the best athlete that won, it's the one with BOTH the best doping program and the best physiological response to the doping. Not everyone reacts the same way.

In addition, pro racing can't clean up until the UCI accepts the past, takes responsibility for it, and makes changes for moving forward.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

sir duke said:


> Viren always had a cloud of suspicion around his 4 Olympic titles. He won hardly anything outside of those productive Olympic years. Guess he just had impeccable timing.


Not quite sure why he was so coy about it. Blood doping wasn't illegal in 72 or 76. There was nothing that the IOC could have done about it. Maybe it was his image as a hardy Finn who trained in Lapland and continued the legacy of Nurmi. He was, and still is, a national hero in Suomi. Letting on that he had "help" might have tarnished that legacy.

Maaninka apparently didn't have any problem with others knowing what wasn't really a secret by then. The 80 Olympics have always been under the radar in the US because of the boycott, but I think Maaninka medaled in both the 5000 and 10000.

Of course, the US cycling team's use of blood doping in 84 has now been widely documented. IIRC the IOC finally banned it between the 84 and 88 Games.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

JoelS said:


> Hate? 'Haters' is a way overused word these days.
> 
> Yeah, he cheated. So did others. The problem then is that it's not the best athlete that won, it's the one with BOTH the best doping program and the best physiological response to the doping. Not everyone reacts the same way.
> 
> In addition, pro racing can't clean up until the UCI accepts the past, takes responsibility for it, and makes changes for moving forward.


Just out of curiosity. Why do you care if they clean up? You aren't going to compete with them anyway. I mean really. Aren't you entertained either way? Who's to say that he wasn't the best athlete? Your argument is not really pertinent. Different people respond differently to all sorts of training, diet, sleep patterns. The person that responds best to all the factors in play wins, if drugs are in play, then that is just one of the factors, they still go out and kill it on the bike every day. 
Lance was the sickest, most focused, grittiest rider that I have ever seen. Period.
I find myself not giving a f if he cheated, he entertained me.
I never wanted to be like him.
I am watching a great soccer game right now that every player on the field is on drugs of some sort and I don't give a damn.
Is there something wrong with me?
Is that un-American?


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

zero85ZEN said:


> Thanks for reminding me to donate....
> 
> 
> I just gave $5 to Paul's defense fund. And I may give more.


Didn't Landis raise money this way too? Pretty sure he was just court ordered to pay it back.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Taos Biker said:


> Cool, don't cheat then. Armstrong entertained the heck out of me, not a role model, an entertainer/athlete. What don't you haters get? You get your panties all in a wad 'cause this shmuck cheated. SO DID EVERYONE ELSE!! IN ALL SPORTS!!! Move on.......It's over. Hate is really unhealthy.


Everyone paid off the UCI? Everyone harassed anyone who told the truth? Really?

I do agree that hate is unhealthy. The hate spewed at LeMond, Bassons, Simeoni, Frankie, Betsy, Mike Anderson, JV, Kimmage, Walsh and many others can't be healthy for Lance or his groupies. For their own sake they should tone it down


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

BigDweeb said:


> Sir Duke - have you read my other posts?





sir duke said:


> No, are they badass?


:lol: :lol:



Smarta$$  !


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

spookyload said:


> Didn't Landis raise money this way too? Pretty sure he was just court ordered to pay it back.



I believe Landis started his fundraiser.


Paul _did not_ start 'his' defense fund.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lance and Johan must have a time machine! See?! He's poison for the sport!


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

> Smarta$$ !


Blame it on the PED's..:thumbsup:


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

sir duke said:


> Blame it on the PED's..:thumbsup:



Rodger that  !


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## BigDweeb (Jun 26, 2007)

now you guys have gone and hurt my feelings...


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Everyone paid off the UCI? Everyone harassed anyone who told the truth? Really?
> 
> I do agree that hate is unhealthy. The hate spewed at LeMond, Bassons, Simeoni, Frankie, Betsy, Mike Anderson, JV, Kimmage, Walsh and many others can't be healthy for Lance or his groupies. For their own sake they should tone it down


It took me a minute to even know what the heck you were talking about, your talking about Lance. See I am a race fan, not really a doping fan so I don't follow that crap. You are mad because you think he paid off the UCI. And protected himself, I suppose the minute anyone accuses you of anything you just fess up and tell the whole truth. Especially when the truth can land you in jail. You hate Contador? Tomke? How about Eddy? They have gotten caught and never issued you a personal apology, why not show them some hate?
You spend a lot of time and energy being pissed at Lance. 
Take a deep breath and back away from the computer, your bike is calling you.


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

Taos Biker said:


> Cool, don't cheat then. Armstrong entertained the heck out of me, not a role model, an entertainer/athlete. What don't you haters get? You get your panties all in a wad 'cause this shmuck cheated. SO DID EVERYONE ELSE!! IN ALL SPORTS!!! Move on.......It's over. Hate is really unhealthy.


I don't hate him, just wish he'd put on those big girl panties you speak of, and admit he did the same thing as all others. If he'd admit that he was a smarter cheat than those around him, and I'd have a lot of respect for him. 

What I can't understand is how the legions of lance supporters act as if they were with lance 7/24 for all the years he rode and know that he is as pure as the driven snow. 

lance....... meh.


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> Will everyone forgive Armstrong if he confesses?


Hard to say, but it would place him one step above a politician.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

PaleAleYum said:


> I don't hate him, just wish he'd put on those big girl panties you speak of, and admit he did the same thing as all others. If he'd admit that he was a smarter cheat than those around him, and I'd have a lot of respect for him.
> 
> What I can't understand is how the legions of lance supporters act as if they were with lance 7/24 for all the years he rode and know that he is as pure as the driven snow.
> 
> lance....... meh.


Ha ha a new brewery just opened up in my town, the guy that opened it is a huge Sierra Nevada fan, his beer is like Pale Ale on steroids, best damn thing I have ever tasted. But I digress.
Why do you have to respect him? I don't, but I love the way he raced. I like that he is surly. I like that you hate him. Mickey Mantle was an ass hole but he is beloved.
I really just don't get it. Are we really that self righteous?


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

David Loving said:


> It's always better to keep one's mouth shut. "Nothing pays off like restraint of pen and tongue," a famous author once wrote. I'm just trying to illustrate that LA is not the only liar. I doubt that many of the 'confessions' are true. Everybody's lying in this thing. Nobody seems to like each other either. They all have their fiefdoms to protect. This forum is home to the LA Haters, but in this doping circus, ain't nobody clean as I see it.


I don't believe he has kept his "mouth shut" with respect to the claim of his innocence.


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

Taos Biker said:


> Ha ha a new brewery just opened up in my town, the guy that opened it is a huge Sierra Nevada fan, his beer is like Pale Ale on steroids, best damn thing I have ever tasted. But I digress.
> Why do you have to respect him? I don't, but I love the way he raced. I like that he is surly. I like that you hate him. Mickey Mantle was an ass hole but he is beloved.
> I really just don't get it. Are we really that self righteous?


Can't say I really hate him. Just scratch my head why there are so many people that wouldn't even possibly consider that lance may be less than honest. To me the parallels between politics and the he did/ he didn't argument is uncanny. Everyone is dead set in their camp and is subconsciously comfortable with the ends justify the means to justify their stance. To be honest, its that angle that fascinates me more than anything. I mean how can anyone get emotionally invested (pro or con) in someone they don't even know.

Perhaps I'm just as disingenuous as the next guy, cause I'd defend Sierra Nevada to my dying day.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Taos Biker said:


> Just out of curiosity. Why do you care if they clean up?


Because there are school kids who want to emulate their favorite athlete and think that they need to do PEDS to do as well.


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## american psycho (Jul 21, 2005)

sir duke said:


> EPO was the game changer


Wrong - ask LA und Alexi Grewal, blood transfusions were the game changer.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

american psycho said:


> Wrong - ask LA und Alexi Grewal, blood transfusions were the game changer.


it's a pain on a day to day basis though. Much safer to keep EPO in a stick of butter than a pint of blood. 
Plus tapping off blood has negative effects resulting in less effective training after the tapping.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

goloso said:


> So a giant nonprofit with a staff and huge fund generating self promotion machine was able to raise _twice_ as much as a unemployed author who never asked anyone for any money.
> 
> What was your point again?



LOLZ!!!!! Oh man, so true.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

velodog said:


> Because there are school kids who want to emulate their favorite athlete and think that they need to do PEDS to do as well.


Oh come on,if you are leaving it to Lance and his ilk, you are doing it wrong.
My spawn is a really good XC runner. Really really good. We talk about PED's. They are a real thing in her life. For her, I hate that they exist, but they do. She does not care what Lance Armstrong or Ronaldo or Brian Urlacher does, there are girls just 4 years older than her on the juice, that is what she is worried about and what I wish you guys would worry about, let the big boys do their crap, lets work to keep this it out of the junior and college levels.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Taos Biker said:


> Oh come on,if you are leaving it to Lance and his ilk, you are doing it wrong.
> My spawn is a really good XC runner. Really really good. We talk about PED's. They are a real thing in her life. For her, I hate that they exist, but they do. She does not care what Lance Armstrong or Ronaldo or Brian Urlacher does, there are girls just 4 years older than her on the juice, that is what she is worried about and what I wish you guys would worry about, let the big boys do their crap, lets work to keep this it out of the junior and college levels.


It's good that you and your daughter talk and it's good that she is naturally talented and that she isn't suffering from hero worship. But what about those girls that are 4 yrs. her senior, why are they on the juice? 
That mindset comes from somewhere, be it peer pressure, hero worship or even family pressure.
Sure, let the big boys do their crap, but in a few years those girls that are four years older than your daughter could be amongst the big boys, and the problem persists.

And what happens if one day your daughter decides that she's gotta do what she's gotta do to be competetive?


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

David Loving said:


> I'm just trying to illustrate that LA is not the only liar.


Sounds like two wrongs don't make a right is apropos in response to this.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

cda 455 said:


> I believe Landis started his fundraiser.
> 
> 
> Paul _did not_ start 'his' defense fund.


There's another difference. Landis was raising money to support his lies at the time. Kimmage is certainly not a liar.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

There is a huge sacrifice either way. PED's are no picnic, but they are the cost of reaching the top levels. It is just the way it is. Armstrong did not start it, he is no role model and my daughter has been taught that from day one. You want to compete at D-1 you most likely do drugs, but that is just one of many sacrifices.
I just don't see what beating the hell out of Lance and cycling in general is going to do. Go mentor a kid instead of wasting time in mental masturbation hell.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Cut the crap with all that talk about most D1 athletes doing drugs. Don't get paranoid or preemptively make excuses for your daughter to lose. Stop having these stupid talks with her about how every faster girl is on the sauce. You're just putting it into her head that she needs drugs to excel. 

Maybe you think most D1 female college runners are doping but you really have no idea. PEDs are certainly not the "cost to reaching the top levels" of university running. Your paranoia is likely baseless. There are plenty of clean girls out there who hard working and talented. 

If she can't compete...tough cookie. Not everyone gets to compete in D1 athletics. Not everyone gets a personal fable. She should focus on academics either way.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

american psycho said:


> Wrong - ask LA und Alexi Grewal, blood transfusions were the game changer.


Um, OK. EPO made only marginal differences, then.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

Local Hero said:


> Cut the crap with all that talk about most D1 athletes doing drugs. Don't get paranoid or preemptively make excuses for your daughter to lose. Stop having these stupid talks with her about how every faster girl is on the sauce. You're just putting it into her head that she needs drugs to excel.
> 
> Maybe you think most D1 female college runners are doping but you really have no idea. PEDs are certainly not the "cost to reaching the top levels" of university running. Your paranoia is likely baseless. There are plenty of clean girls out there who hard working and talented.
> 
> If she can't compete...tough cookie. Not everyone gets to compete in D1 athletics. Not everyone gets a personal fable. She should focus on academics either way.


Just being realistic. Girl needs no excuses, she is a national champ several times over. she gets calls every day from major programs. 
She is a straight A student with huge SAT scores, she is going to be fine.
I ran up against the drug juggernaut in the last 90's, I chose not to go that route and am happier for it. Our high school coach got caught giving steroids to high school kids. That didn't go away. 
Should we just hide our heads in the sand? Not here, we talk about it and deal with the reality that there will be hard choices to make.
If guys will do drugs to win Cat 3 races you really don't think girls will do drugs to compete at NCAA's? You are fooling yourself.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Taos Biker said:


> Our high school coach got caught giving steroids to high school kids. That didn't go away.


I hope that high school coach went away and is serving 10-20 years.


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

velodog said:


> I hope that high school coach went away and is serving 10-20 years.


Nope, he got a couple of years, but since he was a "good" football coach, he is now working at a private school.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Taos Biker said:


> Nope, he got a couple of years, but since he was a "good" football coach, he is now working at a private school.


This is why I see a need to bring down Armstrong and his whole crew of coaches, doctors, suppliers and anyone else(UCI) involved.And not only Armstrong and Co. but any other Sportsman/woman caught using. That's cyclists, ballplayers, gymnasts, coaches, doctors and anyone else involved. At all levels.
Any means does not justify the end, yet that seems to be the mantra of too many.

This all brings me to mind of a quote of Tom Waitts from many years ago...

There is no Devil, it's God when he's drunk.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Taos Biker said:


> You hate Contador? Tomke? How about Eddy? .


They paid off the UCI? Harassed anyone who told the truth? Really?

Most understand that this moved far beyond just doping years ago


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> They paid off the UCI? Harassed anyone who told the truth? Really?
> 
> Most understand that this moved far beyond just doping years ago


And apparently that's _only_ what is known so far.


It'll be interesting if anything new comes up when all the info is released.

That recent report about the mobile coolered blood drop-off's by the 'gardener' was a new one for me :shocked: .


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

cda 455 said:


> That recent report about the mobile coolered blood drop-off's by the 'gardener' was a new one for me :shocked: .


Are you referring to Philippe, aka 'motoman', aka 'the gardener', because I recall reading about him years ago. It was just recently that a face was put to the names.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

velodog said:


> This all brings me to mind of a quote of Tom Waitts from many years ago...
> 
> There is no Devil, it's God when he's drunk.


Since we're quoting Waits, this seems appropriate:

" A Hero ain't nothing but a sandwich"


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## Taos Biker (May 27, 2008)

velodog said:


> This is why I see a need to bring down Armstrong and his whole crew of coaches, doctors, suppliers and anyone else(UCI) involved.And not only Armstrong and Co. but any other Sportsman/woman caught using. That's cyclists, ballplayers, gymnasts, coaches, doctors and anyone else involved. At all levels.
> Any means does not justify the end, yet that seems to be the mantra of too many.
> 
> This all brings me to mind of a quote of Tom Waitts from many years ago...
> ...



Dopers are a product of the society that raised them. We scream at little kids to run faster, kick harder, hit it further, and somehow expect them to rein it in when they are young adults, of course they are going to look for every advantage, it is what they have been indoctrinated in since they played U-6 soccer or little league. 
The only way you fix the problem is to change the behavior, the very culture the exists around sport. It is not life and death, they are games that we play. It needs to be put into perspective, the richest people that graduated from my High School, are the ones that made it to Major League Baseball, they all doped.
Try to enforce all the laws you want to make, you will never begin to stop it. The way we look at sport would have to be totally changed.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

sir duke said:


> Cheating and lying is badass? Who knew?
> 
> A guy winning just 1 Tour clean is badass. Not the fakery that you hold so dear.



It will take a number of changes (stiffer penalties for doping, promoters with no control over testing, more balanced grand tour courses) for me to believe anyone on the podium of a GT is clean.


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