# 2010 Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers - I got em'!!!



## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

After my early morning ride today, I received a phone call from my good friend at my local bike shop. He told me that they had just received a set of the coolest clinchers ever.... the 404 firecrest carbon clincher. Their first set in our area, I am sure.

I was pissed because he knows that I have a weakness for wheels.... I just had to see them. So, after a couple of hours of thought and contemplation, I made my way to the shop to check them out.

I could not put them down. I could not let them go. They came home with me.

I think that they make my bike look pretty good.... what do you think???

Oh, and check Zipp's new skewers that came with the wheels. I am super stoked about the wheels and can't wait to put some miles on them.


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## shotojs78 (May 20, 2008)

what is the weight??? and about skewers?? good review?


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

Weight is 1530 grams for the wheels w/o skewers. I will get a weight with skewers after a while. I will also post some review type comments after I have been able to put some miles into them.


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## zipptrek (Jun 16, 2002)

How are the braking surfaces? Do they pulsate when braking?


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Overweight...overpriced...overhyped...


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## zriggle (Apr 16, 2008)

Edge 65s with 240s are lighter and have better hubs.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

They look petty sweet, you have to let us know how they ride.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

*Rode them today.... love them! Here is my short review...*

I know what you mean.... Zipp's are over hyped and over priced, but you have to admit that they make some good quality stuff. Even more so since SRAM is running things. I still compare them to Edge and Reynolds which are just as good quality and possibly better value. But, there are some of us out there that do like Zipp's. To each his own.

With that all said, I have just returned from a great team ride and I put in 75 miles on the wheels now. I can sum the wheels up in one word for ride quality and looks.... Awesome!

The first thing that you will notice about the wheels is that they feel thicker than the earlier Zipp's. They did the same thing as their 303's. They are super stout and super stiff!! I hammered them on the road, on the hills, and just about anywhere that I could. They are not the lightest out there, but they did spin up pretty nice for the hard accelerations. 

There were sections on the road that were a little bumpy and crappy in sections, plus there were several hard railroad crossing sections. I just hit those section as I normally would. Don't get me wrong, I was still prudent to some extent, but I wanted to see how the wheels would respond to hard bumps or things in the road. They felt great! No issues or a sense of uneasiness at all.

Due to the wider profile of the rim that made for a better feeling wheel going into tight turns. The wheels are stiff and I felt like I was riding on rails. The wheels and tires just hooked up. As far as tires go, I am running Continental GP 4000's and they did well.

One of you asked about the braking surface and braking in general. Well, I am running Swiss Stop yellow brake pads and at first I was thinking that they felt a little different then my Zipp 404 tubulars when it came to braking. There was a difference and I felt like the braking on the carbon clinchers was lacking some. However, I will say this... we were bombing down a serious downhill section of road. I was not familiar with the road nor was I familiar with what was at the bottom, which was a 4 way stop. I was third wheel and just hauling when all of a sudden I realized that I needed to stop and stop quickly. I immediately got a handful of brake and started to modulate. I did not lock up the wheels, but the bike came to a good stop within a fairly short distance. Ok, I was now a good believer in that the initial feeling was just something of not. I have complete faith in the wheels when I need to brake hard. Also, there was no pulsating or weird noises or anything out of the braking whether it was a hard brake or modulation or whatever. Things worked just great. And quite honestly, the braking on my 404 tubulars is a little more noisy... go figure.

The wheels are just plain awesome. I am very happy to have them and they are quite the looker on the bike. I kept getting lots of compliments from my team and some were quite jealous.

These wheels are now my go to wheels for anything and everything. Quality wheels for racing, training, or whatever.

Plus, it appears that the nipples are actually drilled right this time where the nipples are truly at an angle and are not straight like they normally are.

If you have the means and just need to try out a set, I would definitely say go for it. As stated earlier, there is always Edge and Reynolds, which also makes great stuff, but Zipp has really improved the design and performance of the new 404 carbon clincher and the new 303, which I hope to be able to get for CX season this year.

Let me know if you have any further questions.


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## 1natsfan (Oct 17, 2009)

No questions. Just a comment. They look GREAT on your bike!


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

Nice looking wheels. Just wish that most carbon clinchers were a lot lighter. I just find it hard to want to add 1/2 lb of rotating weight (or more in some cases) by going from my current wheelset to carbon. And as much as I love c/f it's damn hard for me to resist anyhow, lol.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

been200mph said:


> Nice looking wheels. Just wish that most carbon clinchers were a lot lighter. I just find it hard to want to add 1/2 lb of rotating weight (or more in some cases) by going from my current wheelset to carbon. And as much as I love c/f it's damn hard for me to resist anyhow, lol.


Could always save weight, $, and increase performance with tubulars. I'm not bashing carbon clinchers, but I train with heavier alloy clinchers and race with carbon tubulars.


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## pvflyer (Oct 15, 2009)

*Lookin good*

Thanx 4 your first impression very informative. Bike lookin good, I've a question comparing the new wheels with your tubular which one you think its easy to maintain a higher average speed? 

I'm thinking about getting a new set and doing some research right now I've few brands on my list and 404 are on it, but I also waiting for more info on a new product from madfiber their prices and weight, its really appealing. 

http://www.madfiber.com/


Thanks


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

pvflyer said:


> Thanx 4 your first impression very informative. Bike lookin good, I've a question comparing the new wheels with your tubular which one you think its easy to maintain a higher average speed?
> 
> I'm thinking about getting a new set and doing some research right now I've few brands on my list and 404 are on it, but I also waiting for more info on a new product from madfiber their prices and weight, its really appealing.
> 
> ...


I think that my 404 tubulars are able to hold speed over distance due to the lower weight of the wheel. Less rotational weight will always win in my opinion. 

I love the CF wheels as well. Those madfibers look interesting no doubt. Let us know how it works out for you.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

been200mph said:


> Nice looking wheels. Just wish that most carbon clinchers were a lot lighter. I just find it hard to want to add 1/2 lb of rotating weight (or more in some cases) by going from my current wheelset to carbon. And as much as I love c/f it's damn hard for me to resist anyhow, lol.


I know what you mean about the added rotational weight of most carbon clinchers over a tubular. If there weren't the PITA factor associated with maintaining tubulars I would be riding them everyday instead of just for races. With my new set of Zipps the weight at 1530 grams is not that bad. Yes there is about a half of pound additional rotational weight but the wheels ride great and plus they give the appearance of a tubular. My bike as pictured weighs 15.5 lbs and that is not too shabby. With my tubulars my bike weighs 14.8 by way of comparison.


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

mdutcher said:


> I know what you mean about the added rotational weight of most carbon clinchers over a tubular. If there weren't the PITA factor associated with maintaining tubulars I would be riding them everyday instead of just for races. With my new set of Zipps the weight at 1530 grams is not that bad. Yes there is about a half of pound additional rotational weight but the wheels ride great and plus they give the appearance of a tubular. My bike as pictured weighs 15.5 lbs and that is not too shabby. With my tubulars my bike weighs 14.8 by way of comparison.


I didn't mean tubulars. I meant over some aluminum clinchers. My AC CR-350 wheelset is barely over 1300g. With those on my TCR ready to ride (with computer, two Arundel cages, Blackburn frame pump, seat pack housing a spare tube/tire lever/allen wrenches) it's 16.26 pounds. Stripped bare with just the bike itself it comes in at barely over 15 pounds even. This is with a saddle weighing over 200g. As much as I love carbon fiber I just don't do the kind of riding to justify carbon tubulars, and I have not seen many clinchers that are below 1300g which have good braking performance and durability. So, I'll live happily with my sub-$400 pr of 1300g wheels.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

been200mph said:


> I didn't mean tubulars. I meant over some aluminum clinchers. My AC CR-350 wheelset is barely over 1300g. With those on my TCR ready to ride (with computer, two Arundel cages, Blackburn frame pump, seat pack housing a spare tube/tire lever/allen wrenches) it's 16.26 pounds. Stripped bare with just the bike itself it comes in at barely over 15 pounds even. This is with a saddle weighing over 200g. As much as I love carbon fiber I just don't do the kind of riding to justify carbon tubulars, and I have not seen many clinchers that are below 1300g which have good braking performance and durability. So, I'll live happily with my sub-$400 pr of 1300g wheels.


You do have a nice bike and if you are happy with what you have, then by all means stick with it. Your bike is light already... wow! 

But think about this.... An aluminum 1300g clincher is nice to have no doubt. What you do lack is the aero advantage though. My 404 tubulars weigh in at 1250 grams. That doesn't seem like a huge weight savings over your current setup though. But, what my wheels would give is added aero efficiency and could possibly save you anywhere from 45 seconds to a couple of minutes over a 40km effort depending on your level of effort. For example, Zipp actually claims that their new 101 aluminum clincher will save 42 seconds over a 40km effort as compared to other aluminum clinchers out there. That is due to the aero rim of the 101 (small, but still aero somewhat).

But, like you said, there is the $ aspect of it all. $400 for your wheels compared to $2K for a nice set of tubulars. That is hard to swallow for some, but then again, that 45 seconds or even a couple of minutes over a 50 mile ride or race might make the difference between finishing on the podium or middle of the pack and that is why most serious racers will opt to pay the big bucks.


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

Yep, if I raced then I'd opt for a more aero wheelset. But generally I ride for recreation and also to stay in shape for hockey during the off-ice months. I upgraded the frameset this season for more encouragement to ride the road bike instead of just the mtb, lol. Thus I can't justify the $ for light tubulars although if a set came up for the right price... I'd consider them.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

been200mph said:


> Nice looking wheels. Just wish that most carbon clinchers were a lot lighter. I just find it hard to want to add 1/2 lb of rotating weight (or more in some cases) by going from my current wheelset to carbon. And as much as I love c/f it's damn hard for me to resist anyhow, lol.


Edge 45 rims are <400g.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

mdutcher said:


> I think that my 404 tubulars are able to hold speed over distance due to the lower weight of the wheel. Less rotational weight will always win in my opinion.
> 
> I love the CF wheels as well. Those madfibers look interesting no doubt. Let us know how it works out for you.


It's the other way around - the heavier clincher wheels will hold speed better than the lighter tubs, all else being the same and assuming all the weight difference is in the rim.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

*Tires ??*

Very nice. Looks like you have Continentals on them ?? A friend has one - I'll be sending him one of the new Bontrager R4 Aero tires to test fit and ride next week. I'll post some comments on his impressions. You should really go with some fast tires and latex to tubes to honor those new wheels.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

foz said:


> It's the other way around - the heavier clincher wheels will hold speed better than the lighter tubs, all else being the same and assuming all the weight difference is in the rim.


My bad.... I don't know what I was thinking but you are correct. A heavier wheel will hold speed better once it has been spun up. I was thinking that a lighter wheel will hold the same speed. The lighter wheel will spin up faster, accelerate faster, and climb better overall.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

AM999 said:


> Very nice. Looks like you have Continentals on them ?? A friend has one - I'll be sending him one of the new Bontrager R4 Aero tires to test fit and ride next week. I'll post some comments on his impressions. You should really go with some fast tires and latex to tubes to honor those new wheels.


Yes, I am running Continental GP 4000's and I love them. They are perfect for everyday use for me.

What is a true faster and better rolling tire out there for everyday use?


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

mdutcher said:


> Yes, I am running Continental GP 4000's and I love them. They are perfect for everyday use for me.
> 
> What is a true faster and better rolling tire out there for everyday use?


Hard to beat those for everyday riding/training. The Michelin Pro Race 3 rolls about the same as the GP4000S. The Vittoria Open Corsa CX 23 rolls better but might be more fragile. The Bonty RXL Pro 23 rolls well also. Are you going to race on the 404's or use them as an everday wheel ??


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## zion rasta (Aug 15, 2004)

Woo Hoo!!!!!!!!!!! Got them too. They just have not even built yet. There is a waiting list just about everywhere and a 16 Lead Time from Zipp.

Ok, I am waiting.... Already paid for them......


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Certainly look nice, just can't stand the silver nipples and hubs Zipp forces everyone to get. Offer some options and then maybe they woud be considered along with Edge 45C rims with Alchemy hubs...


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

foz said:


> It's the other way around - the heavier clincher wheels will hold speed better than the lighter tubs, all else being the same and assuming all the weight difference is in the rim.


I know exactly what you mean. I have such a hard time "holding speed" that I have actually filled my alloy clinchers with concrete - They weigh like 5 lbs each. 

I'm holding speed like nobody's business now!!


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## Nacracer (Oct 27, 2005)

*Carbon Clinchers....I just don't get it????*

Nice bike and nice wheels. But I don't understand the lure of carbon clinchers that weigh that much! Taking a few grams of your bike is of little value....but....taking a few grams of weight off your wheels (rotating weight) is huge!! Go tubular and have the best of both worlds...aero and lightweight.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Nacracer said:


> Nice bike and nice wheels. But I don't understand the lure of carbon clinchers that weigh that much! Taking a few grams of your bike is of little value....but....taking a few grams of weight off your wheels (rotating weight) is huge!! Go tubular and have the best of both worlds...aero and lightweight.


Right up until you have a tire issue 50 miles from anything....


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

AM999 said:


> Very nice. Looks like you have Continentals on them ?? A friend has one - I'll be sending him one of the new Bontrager R4 Aero tires to test fit and ride next week. I'll post some comments on his impressions. You should really go with some fast tires and latex to tubes to honor those new wheels.


Here is a link to a Slow Twitch thread with photos of the 404 carbon clinchers with a Bontrager R4 Aero tire installed.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

Nacracer said:


> Nice bike and nice wheels. But I don't understand the lure of carbon clinchers that weigh that much! Taking a few grams of your bike is of little value....but....taking a few grams of weight off your wheels (rotating weight) is huge!! Go tubular and have the best of both worlds...aero and lightweight.


I have best of both worlds already. I have Zipp 404 tubulars for racing and now the Zipp 404 CC for everyday use.

For me personally, I have ridden my tubulars on rides other than races. I spent the money for them, why not use them?!? However, like someone stated earlier, there is that chance of having an issue. In a race, I can accept that, but on a ride, I just don't want to deal with the chance of having an issue. 

So, the better alternative is the carbon clincher for me. One, I love aero wheels and the way that they look and feel. I am sort of like Zoolander when it comes to fashion and looking good. I like the deep aero look. Second, the carbon clincher gives the appearance of a tubular and there is in fact a definite step forward getting to the feel of a tubular when riding a nice set of carbon clinchers. Third, the weight issue is a disadvantage to some no doubt when discussing rotational weight... My 404 tubulars weigh about 1250 grams. The CC weigh close to 1550 grams. That is almost a pound heavier. Yes, there are lighter CC alternatives (like Edge) out there, but for me, the new Zipp CC caught my eye.

I could not be happier with my new CC's now. I have logged close to 300 miles on them already. No issues really so far. Yes, they are a little overpriced, but I am not having any buyers remorse issues at all. They are solid wheels and look dang cool on my bike. I love the looks that I get from my buddies. They want them!


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

mdutcher said:


> I have best of both worlds already. I have Zipp 404 tubulars for racing and now the Zipp 404 CC for everyday use.
> 
> For me personally, I have ridden my tubulars on rides other than races. I spent the money for them, why not use them?!? However, like someone stated earlier, there is that chance of having an issue. In a race, I can accept that, but on a ride, I just don't want to deal with the chance of having an issue.
> 
> ...


Nuff said!


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## Nacracer (Oct 27, 2005)

mdutcher said:


> I have best of both worlds already. I have Zipp 404 tubulars for racing and now the Zipp 404 CC for everyday use.
> 
> For me personally, I have ridden my tubulars on rides other than races. I spent the money for them, why not use them?!? However, like someone stated earlier, there is that chance of having an issue. In a race, I can accept that, but on a ride, I just don't want to deal with the chance of having an issue.
> 
> ...






Well, I suppose if you are going to train on them. But if you are just training on them why is aero and lightness even a factor? I train with Open Pro 32 spoke wheels....don't care about anything but them being tough...but in a race I have a wheel car behind me, don't have to worry about changing a flat tubular.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

zipptrek said:


> How are the braking surfaces? Do they pulsate when braking?


Had an opportunity to demo a set on my bike during a weekly 30mi group ride which included some rain. Despite carbon pads, wet braking was smooth but significantly worse than with my AL clinchers. Not dangerous, but did have to make an allowance. Acceleration and handling were solid. Speed was, as expected, an advantage over my AL clinchers (27mm rim/20 blades spokes). I'm no pro, but on that regular route I was up to 1mph faster on our usu sprints (diff directions, so not due to wind). 
Bottom line- Great race/TT/tri wheels for those who don't want to hassle with tubulars, but personally I would get the AL braking surface for all-around use.

BTW- Also had a chance to see the new 101's. With that torroidal rim they're best looking production AL clinchers I've ever seen.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

Nacracer said:


> Well, I suppose if you are going to train on them. But if you are just training on them why is aero and lightness even a factor? I train with Open Pro 32 spoke wheels....don't care about anything but them being tough...but in a race I have a wheel car behind me, don't have to worry about changing a flat tubular.


Why would aero and lightness NOT be a factor for training or just riding? If I have the wheels to train on, then why not train on them and still get the benefit of aero? Granted, I am not gaining all that much in the lightness factor as these are comparable in weight to a nice set of aluminum clinchers. If you have it, why not use it?

I too have a set of Open Pro 32 spoke wheels. I would rather get my money's worth out of the CC and look cool while doing it. But, that is just me. I have nothing against the Open Pro or anything else. The bottom line is that I spent good money on my tubulars, I will ride them and race them when I feel like it, but they will ultimately be my go to race wheelset. I also spent good money on my new CC's, I will definitely ride them as my everyday wheel and even race with them as they are even a great race wheel.

You know, if you flat on a tubular regardless of what you were doing be it riding it or racing it, you are still hosed. Yes, there is a wheel truck following us in a race situation, but around here, if I get a flat in a race, there is no way that I am getting a new wheel and getting back into the group up ahead. My race is done regardless when it comes to road racing. Now, in a crit, you get a free lap and that is a different story. However, have you ever thought about that before? I was just in a race this week-end and I thought about that a while longer as I saw all of the wheels that this truck was holding. If I got a flat, it would take a good minute or two before I would be able to get back on the road at the very least. That 1-2 minutes or even more is just not going to be easy to make up in a bridge effort unless you have good teammates waiting around for you to help pull you back. So, I still think that we are still hosed and then get to have to deal with fixing the tubular later. That is the chance that us mere amateurs have to deal with.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Wheel weight is highly over-rated anyway. I can barely tell a difference between my tubular race wheels and the Mavic Carbones I train on, and one is 1300grams, the other is 1700! But, it seems people believe whatever they need to believe to justify their expenditures.

Those are nice wheels. I'd be happy with the purchase. And, of the two, I'd choose those Zipps over the Edge clinchers. I just think the fatter, more ovoid shape of the rim makes more aerodynamic sense than the sharp V-design of the Edge rims.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

nightfend said:


> Wheel weight is highly over-rated anyway. I can barely tell a difference between my tubular race wheels and the Mavic Carbones I train on, and one is 1300grams, the other is 1700! But, it seems people believe whatever they need to believe to justify their expenditures.
> 
> Those are nice wheels. I'd be happy with the purchase. And, of the two, I'd choose those Zipps over the Edge clinchers. I just think the fatter, more ovoid shape of the rim makes more aerodynamic sense than the sharp V-design of the Edge rims.


I agree with you on the new rim shape of the Zipp wheels over the competition. There is an advantage in aerodynamics and lateral stiffness.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

I dont think the Cancellara and the team would have used 303s if they felt it could cost them time in a race no matter free or not.


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## mjdwyer23 (Mar 18, 2009)

Did they change the nipples at all to avoid the common cracking issues?


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

JimT said:


> I dont think the Cancellara and the team would have used 303s if they felt it could cost them time in a race no matter free or not.


Agreed on that! That says something about Zipp wheels today.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

mjdwyer23 said:


> Did they change the nipples at all to avoid the common cracking issues?


Yes, it would appear that the nipple issue has been resolved. In looking at my wheels, the holes don't seem to be drilled straight any more. They appear to be more in line with the alignment of the spoke now. That is a good thing.


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## Irvine (Jul 23, 2010)

mdutcher said:


> Yes, it would appear that the nipple issue has been resolved. In looking at my wheels, the holes don't seem to be drilled straight any more. They appear to be more in line with the alignment of the spoke now. That is a good thing.


Can you give us an update on these wheels?
thanks


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Irvine said:


> Can you give us an update on these wheels?
> thanks


No, but here's an update on the absurdity of the rotational mass argument. http://djconnel.blogspot.com/2010/07/velonews-aero-wheel-ranking-formula.html


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

Irvine said:


> Can you give us an update on these wheels?
> thanks


I have been using my wheels since the end of May now. They have not really come off the bike at all. I have been using them for racing and for training and for just riding. They are my new favorite set of wheels for all things.

They roll super smooth. They are stiff. They are cool looking. Enough said.

No issues or complaints. Some purists may think that the weight issue for these aero wheels is too great. Yes, they are just under 1600 grams. But, I find that they are not holding me back in any way shape or form. I have raced them on hilly routes, crits, everywhere. In fact, the added weight helps them maintain speed over a lighter set of wheels. I am the only thing probably holding them back.

Great wheels!


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## thedog (Nov 6, 2005)

+1 on these wheels. Amazingly compliant/supple too. Stiff through corners.


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## zion rasta (Aug 15, 2004)

*It is not just weight....*



Nacracer said:


> Nice bike and nice wheels. But I don't understand the lure of carbon clinchers that weigh that much! Taking a few grams of your bike is of little value....but....taking a few grams of weight off your wheels (rotating weight) is huge!! Go tubular and have the best of both worlds...aero and lightweight.


I have the 404 carbon clinchers installed on my RT-900 per the picture below and they smoke the R-Sys mavics out of the water. 

The Zipps are fast and roll smooth. keeping speeds of 25mph is a breeze. Can't do that for long on the Ksyriums SL... The Zipps 404 carbon clincher are all they say they are and I would buy them again.

I ride them with Vittoria EVO CX open corsa.


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

*Anyone else out there riding these wheels yet?*

So, has any one else out there taken the plunge? I know that these wheels are sure pricey at full MSRP. Especially when compared to Eastons, or Edge, or Reynolds, which are all good options as well. But, the 404 CC's are sure sweet.

I can't seem to shake the smile from my face. I now have close to about 800 miles or more on these wheels. 

I have only seen one minor issue and that is a creaking noise from the front hub. I believe it is due to the fork drop-outs mating up with the hub. When out of the saddle and swaying the bike back and forth, I get the occasional creak. It goes away after the area is cleaned or wiped down. I have had this issue with other wheels, so it is not just prone to occur with the Zipps.

I must say that these wheels are truly a delight to ride though. I have done just about everything with them. Raced, climbed, trained, tempo riding, etc. There seems to be no limitation. They are super stiff in the turns. They also seem to spin up quite nicely as well, even with the hefty weight of 1550 grams.

Just last night I was doing intervals on a hilly route that I have near my house. My last hill is not considered a long hill, but it sure does have bite. I am not quite sure, but the grade at the worst part is about 12 degrees. We have lots of hills that measure with grades from 9-10 in my area and this particular one is the worst. I did 2 hill repeats on this hill last night and just gave it my all both times. The wheels did not hold me back and actually felt quite nice as far as rotational inertia goes at the speed that I was going. They spun up just fine for me. Of course, a nice set of Zipp 202's that weigh like 1100 grams would have seemed a lot better for the route that I chose. My only point is that these wheels really have no real limitations with me.

Overall, still an awesome set of wheels. I could not be any more pleased with them. I get so many cool looks from my buddies that don't have them right now.

I just thought that I would post another update. Enjoy!


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## mdutcher (May 1, 2005)

zion rasta said:


> I have the 404 carbon clinchers installed on my RT-900 per the picture below and they smoke the R-Sys mavics out of the water.
> 
> The Zipps are fast and roll smooth. keeping speeds of 25mph is a breeze. Can't do that for long on the Ksyriums SL... The Zipps 404 carbon clincher are all they say they are and I would buy them again.
> 
> I ride them with Vittoria EVO CX open corsa.


Well said. Very nice looking bike!


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## tyjacks (Oct 21, 2006)

How would the new Zipp 404 CC's compare to a set of custom built ENVE (Edge) 65 CC's with Alchemy ELF front / DT190 rear hubs, sapim CX-Ray spokes.


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## tyjacks (Oct 21, 2006)

*Zipp 404 cc or ENVE 65 cc*

How would the new Zipp 404 CC's compare to a set of custom built ENVE (Edge) 65 CC's with Alchemy ELF front / DT190 rear hubs, sapim CX-Ray spokes.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

tyjacks said:


> How would the new Zipp 404 CC's compare to a set of custom built ENVE (Edge) 65 CC's with Alchemy ELF front / DT190 rear hubs, sapim CX-Ray spokes.


probably the same price, Zipps more aero, Edges probably lighter.

I would hold off on Edge rims until the new more aero rims they are designing with Smart are released.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

mdutcher said:


> You do have a nice bike and if you are happy with what you have, then by all means stick with it. Your bike is light already... wow!
> 
> But think about this.... An aluminum 1300g clincher is nice to have no doubt. What you do lack is the aero advantage though. My 404 tubulars weigh in at 1250 grams. That doesn't seem like a huge weight savings over your current setup though. But, what my wheels would give is added aero efficiency and could possibly save you anywhere from 45 seconds to a couple of minutes over a 40km effort depending on your level of effort. For example, Zipp actually claims that their new 101 aluminum clincher will save 42 seconds over a 40km effort as compared to other aluminum clinchers out there. That is due to the aero rim of the 101 (small, but still aero somewhat).
> 
> But, like you said, there is the $ aspect of it all. $400 for your wheels compared to $2K for a nice set of tubulars. That is hard to swallow for some, but then again, that 45 seconds or even a couple of minutes over a 50 mile ride or race might make the difference between finishing on the podium or middle of the pack and that is why most serious racers will opt to pay the big bucks.


Assuming you are riding in a lone break. anytime you are drafting you will be reducing that aero effect substantially and even more so in a pack.


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## Irvine (Jul 23, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> probably the same price, Zipps more aero, Edges probably lighter.
> 
> I would hold off on Edge rims until the new more aero rims they are designing with Smart are released.


Interesting.
Does anyone know what the time frame is for the release of these ENVE/Smart aero wheels?


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## dadoflam (Jan 19, 2008)

mdutcher said:


> Agreed on that! That says something about Zipp wheels today.


it does indeed - Cancellara's Zipp wheel cracking and failing almost did lose him the race, what actually won him the race was a team car carrying replacement wheels and his team mates pulling him back to the front of the pack for a second time - not something the average amateuer rider can rely upon. Insiders say that there was quite a bit of team debate about using these wheels before the race.
I can take or leave Zipp wheels and I do use their products but I do get annoyed with marketing campaigns bestowing virtues on products which actually are attributable to other factors and not the product itself. At least this year Zipp do not seem to be playing the Roubaix/durability angle again.

PS - love the look of the new wheels and their shape. Enjoy your ride!


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## tyjacks (Oct 21, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> probably the same price, Zipps more aero, Edges probably lighter.
> 
> I would hold off on Edge rims until the new more aero rims they are designing with Smart are released.



Thanks for the info, I'm hoping to buy myself a nice Christmas gift this year. I'm planning on the Zipp 404 CC or the ENVE 65's. (Edge) I'll wait to see the new ENVE/Smart designs and the new deeper Easton EC90's. So much to choose from ... :idea:


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## goneskiian (Jan 13, 2005)

Resuscitating an old thread here.

I'm curious how large the folks are that have these wheels.

Also, does anyone have the 808 carbon clinchers yet? 

Cheers!


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## Mashmaniac (Jun 21, 2004)

I'm 215 and have 404 wheelset but not the all carbon set. (wish I did but waiting to see if price goes down a little). No problems as they run straight and true after a year of long hard riding. I do slow down for RR tracks more than I used to and try to avoid any beating them up like I used to do with my bombproof CXP-33 wheelset.


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## goneskiian (Jan 13, 2005)

Thanks but this thread is about the all carbon versions.

I too have had a set of the carbon/aluminum clinchers. After tearing them up in 2 crashes (and having them rebuilt by Zipp) and upgrading the rear to the "Clydesdale" version with 28 spokes, they were great for years. 

I'm just a little skeptical on the low spoke count on these new ones, especially the meager 20 spokes the rear gets. 

Thanks!


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## mainediver218 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers ... they say put your money in the wheels ...*

Well, I "pulled the trigger" on a set of Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers

Some initial feedback on this significant investment … WOW! … (What 'O Wheel-set)! Comparing against the Bontrager Race X Lites which are pretty good wheels.

*Dry Braking* – all good, maybe an issue in the mountains with heat but in my normal rides so far braking performance is excellent. I find with the Zipp supplied cork pads that stopping power and brake modulation/control is excellent. Lever effort may be a bit higher than with aluminum rims but frankly I see this as a plus because brakes that are too grabby can be a safety hazard in heavy traffic in my view. So I guess I'm not sure what people are whining about with carbon rims and braking, so far it's not an issue with these.

*Wet braking* – got caught out in torrential rain on the way home from the shop yesterday, no, not as good as aluminum but nothing is that good in the wet except discs. I found that with enough lever pressure stopping control was fine.

*These things roll nice!*, on my 80k loop, which I typically ride solo, I took over 5 minutes off my best ever time, my average speed was over 2 kph faster than my average on that course and about 1.5 kph faster than my best ever. I am carrying at least 3-5 kph more speed on the flats with these wheels and am sure that once I get another 10 kg off me I'll see my average speed come up nicely. Gettin' this old man back into shape, I'm 52 by the way but a lifetime cyclist and former "weekend warrior" mountain bike racer so although I'm by no means an elite cyclist I'm in pretty good shape and can hold my own with most in my age bracket. I'm 6'3" and currently about 105kg (gym rat) but my goal is to be at 95kg, which is probably my "ideal" weight by the end of the year.

*SMOOOOOTH*, the biggest and most pleasant surprise is how these soak up rough road surface and in particular the damn speed control paint stripes we have on some of the best cycling routes here in Singapore. I was really amazed at how well they performed and also stayed settled. Certainly will make longer rides even more fun.

*Climbing*, too early to say too much, I need to go hammer my hill route a few times to get some more data but so far they feel plenty stiff enough and climb well. I'm up out of the saddle a lot and they seem to spin up well, accelerate well, and climb well.

*Handling*, haven't pushed them too hard yet but they seem to rail corners, especially considering I'm carrying more speed. Will start to push them harder as I get used to the way they handle and gain more confidence but they definitely stay planted and predictable and I have a feeling I'll really be able to hold a tighter and faster line with these.

*Looks*, damn sexy looking wheels. I like the more classic lines of my 2007 Madone and the color scheme (with the possible exception of the Discovery Channel Logo) and certainly there are a lot of frames with better paint than Trek had on this one BUT that color scheme together with those wheels make for one fine looking ride in my opinion. I'm far more into performance than looks but a nicely balanced package that looks good never hurt. With the 404's it looks fast just sitting there.

Yep, a big investment, but certainly testament to the fact that the best place to put your money is into a good set of wheels! I couldn't be happier!


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

mainediver218 said:


> Well, I "pulled the trigger" on a set of Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers
> 
> Some initial feedback on this significant investment … WOW! … (What 'O Wheel-set)! Comparing against the Bontrager Race X Lites which are pretty good wheels.
> 
> ...


What tires and tubes before and after ??


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## mainediver218 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Tires on the Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers*

AM999,

I was running Bontrager Race X Lite 700x23's with Bontrager tubes. On the Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers I went with the Zipp Tangente "Open Tubular" 700 x 23's with Kenda butyl tubes with full length stems to avoid having to use extensions. 

Of course I can't "decouple" the effect of the 404's from what I perceive to also be an upgrade in tires but I needed new tires anyway and didn't want to stay with the Bontragers as I'm only getting about 1,500km on those before I'm down to the threads.

The Tangente's price is a little dear but they seem a natural companion to the 404 carbon clincher.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

mainediver218 said:


> AM999,
> 
> I was running Bontrager Race X Lite 700x23's with Bontrager tubes. On the Zipp 404 Carbon Clinchers I went with the Zipp Tangente "Open Tubular" 700 x 23's with Kenda butyl tubes with full length stems to avoid having to use extensions.
> 
> ...


That's definitely an upgrade with respect to rolling resistance - I'd estimate ~ 10 watts. You should really honor your new wheels and tires by investing in some latex tubes. Bontragers have removeable valve cores which make it easy to install some Tufo extensions. You will pick up some additional rolling resistance wattage (not much but ~ 2 watts) but may like the ride a bit better ??


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## mainediver218 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Great suggestion ...*

That's a great suggestion, I will definitely do that!


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Wow!! 1500 grams? Is that because they are clinchers? I have the Clydesdale Tubulars and they weigh around 1350 grams and are a heavier duty 404. The standard 404 Tubulars are even lighter. ...


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## mainediver218 (Mar 19, 2011)

*Clinchers are heavier ...*

Yep, you pay a price for the convenience of clinchers, tough to mess with the physics involved, the clinchers have to endure a different set of stresses than tubulars. For my requirements though the weight penalty was not that big an issue since there aren't a lot of tough climbs where I live and since I got these primarily for 300+ km/week training and not as specialist wheels I figured that the potential loss of climbing and sprinting performance from the extra couple hundred grams would probably not be noticed much.

I suspect there are lots of different views on what is the "perfect" wheel-set, isn't it great that we have so many awesome choices!? Remember 30 years ago ... I do!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Psa*



AM999 said:


> That's definitely an upgrade with respect to rolling resistance - I'd estimate ~ 10 watts. You should really honor your new wheels and tires by investing in some latex tubes. Bontragers have removeable valve cores which make it easy to install some Tufo extensions. You will pick up some additional rolling resistance wattage (not much but ~ 2 watts) but may like the ride a bit better ??


Latex tubes lower rolling resistance, not increase it.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

Coolhand said:


> Latex tubes lower rolling resistance, not increase it.


Yes, sloppy wording on my part - the latex tubes will result in a reduction of demand power. i.e. a reduction in the resistance to forward motion. The 2 watts savings will result in slightly higher speeds at the same input power. Not a big deal for JRA but it can be for time trials. I'm more interested in the ride however, i.e. is there a noticeable difference in "feel." Subjective for sure but ...

AFM


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

mainediver218 said:


> I am carrying at least 3-5 kph more speed on the flats with these wheels


It's unlikely that more than 5% of that can be contributed to the wheels. But no worries... you are faster than you thought!

Either that, or I need to buy some of these and head to worlds...


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