# Anyone riding a seriuos E bike ?



## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

*Anyone riding a serious E bike ?*

Anyone riding a real road E bike ? Something like a Pinarello Nitro or Bianchi Aria Eroad or Focus Paralane,something that turn heads I mean
If so,care to share ? I'm almost 46,busy with family an ride only 7 months per year ( including flu/cold and vacation time) during winter months,each and every year is becoming increasingly difficult to gain a decent fitness. It's not that I can't do it anymore,it's just recovery times are becoming a true issue and when I push it a bit because I feel good my body feels hammered for 2/3 days. And no,no time to stretch at the gym or whatever else..


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## Cooper1960 (Oct 14, 2010)

If you're having trouble maintaining your fitness level why would you want to get an ebike? If your goal is fitness but time is an issue just do shorter rides when you can, every ride doesn't have be a suffer fest leaving you wipped out for days afterward. 

I look at ebikes more for those that have some physical limitations or injuries but still want to enjoy the outdoors.

I wonder if any studies have been done tracking those using ebikes. Does their fitness level increase or decrease?

To answer your question...no I have no experience with an ebike, I think it would be fun to ride but wouldn't help my fitness level....but I could be wrong.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Cooper1960 said:


> If you're having trouble maintaining your fitness level why would you want to get an ebike? If your goal is fitness but time is an issue just do shorter rides when you can, every ride doesn't have be a suffer fest leaving you wipped out for days afterward.
> 
> 
> I wonder if any studies have been done tracking those using ebikes. Does their fitness level increase or decrease?
> ...


Define suffer fest. My rides are about 50km,26/28 km per hour average pace and an elevation of about 400/700 meters depending. Doesn't sound like a suffer test to me. I'm 6 ft tall/191 lb. I can be on the heavy side for sure but legs account for a lot of that weight. I lose about 3/4 kilos when I sto riding during summer. 
Anyway after a couple of rides in a row like that I have some very stiff legs when climbing stairs at home. Give me 4/5 days of total rest and I can literally fly on those stairs while holding a couple of water kegs..


Yes,studies have been done for E MTB and general fitness seemed improved. I'm talking about youngish people,34/37 years old editors testers who had a Specialized Levo to review for about a month


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Devastazione said:


> Define suffer fest. My rides are about 50km,26/28 km per hour average pace and an elevation of about 400/700 meters depending. Doesn't sound like a suffer test to me. I'm 6 ft tall/191. I can be on the heavy side for sure but legs account for a lot of that weight. I lose about 3/4 kilos when I sto riding during summer.
> Anyway after a couple of rides in a row like that I have some very stiff legs when climbing stairs at home. Give me 4/5 days of total rest and I can literally fly on those stairs while holding a couple of water kegs..
> 
> 
> Yes,studies have been done for E MTB and general fitness seemed improved. I'm talking about younghish people,34/37 years old editors testers who had a Specialized Levo to review for about a month


My thinking is similar to Cooper's. You are only 46 and ready to use a "crutch"? I would suggest maybe getting a trainer and trying not to lose so much fitness over the winter. Maybe stretching after your ride would have eliminate some of the recovery issues.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Devastazione said:


> Define suffer fest. My rides are about 50km,26/28 km per hour average pace and an elevation of about 400/700 meters depending. Doesn't sound like a suffer test to me. I'm 6 ft tall/191. I can be on the heavy side for sure but legs account for a lot of that weight. I lose about 3/4 kilos when I sto riding during summer.
> Anyway after a couple of rides in a row like that I have some very stiff legs when climbing stairs at home. Give me 4/5 days of total rest and I can literally fly on those stairs while holding a couple of water kegs..
> 
> 
> Yes,studies have been done for E MTB and general fitness seemed improved. I'm talking about younghish people,34/37 years old editors testers who had a Specialized Levo to review for about a month


Getting an e-bike isn't going to help you keep fit.

The problem is you can't find the time to maintain the level of speed and distance you are accustomed to. An electric motor will let you see that speed and distance but won't add fitness doing it. You need to reevaluate your goals. Maybe go a bit slower or the same speed over a shorter distance. Or find an alternative activity that you can squeeze in when the weather is bad, swimming, walking, etc...


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I have a BMC AMP Cross that I bought specifically for commuting. My commute is 16 miles one way and has about 800 meters of climbing. It's a ride I love to do on my road bike on a weekend or evening ride after work, but in the summer, getting to work drenched in sweat sucks. We don't have showers or lockers, which means carrying all of my work clothes on my back.










Having the E-bike makes the morning commute a casual light exercise (i still average about 115bpm for an hour - twice a day - similar to a brisk walk), and I don't have to worry about getting to work drenched in sweat. I can ride in street clothes, jump off the bike and be ready to work when I get there.

I commute pretty early (about 6am), and most (probably 60% by the eye test) of the commuters I see on this route are on e-bikes now. Very few casual cyclists out at that hour. 

I like having it. I find I'm a lot more inclined to ride now, even when the weather is a bit sketchy (too hot/cold). It takes away a lot of the drudgery related to logistics of commuting. I just grab my backpack and go. 

My only concern with my commute is a lack of a secure place to lock up the bike at work. Right now I bring it inside and stash it in a corner of the office, but the building management folks don't like it. I told them I'm not keeping a bike that expensive outside, and asked them to provide access to a secure area to lock it up (our main campus has an indoor secure locker area, but the satellite office, which is new, does not - yet!).


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Steve B. said:


> Getting an e-bike isn't going to help you keep fit.


It's not like riding a motorcycle. I would suggest you take one on a demo ride before you say stuff like this.

it's certainly not going to qualify for race training (although it could if you wanted to), it's still really good exercise. As I noted in my previous post, with the bike in Eco mode, i still average about 110-120bpm for an hour, twice a day. This is about the equivalent of a brisk walk, or very slow jog. This is great exercise. It burns calories and works large muscle groups, and doesn't put a lot of physical stress on the body. You can recover quickly, and thus do it every day. 

Keep in mind, you can always turn the motor off, or ride faster than the pedal assist speed (25kmh in my case), to increase the HR. 

And by the way, I'm not coming here as a non-cyclist saying this stuff. I've averaged ~9k total miles on road/gravel bikes the last three years (BEFORE I had the E-bike).


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Finx said:


> It's not like riding a motorcycle. I would suggest you take one on a demo ride before you say stuff like this.
> 
> it's certainly not going to qualify for race training (although it could if you wanted to), it's still really good exercise. As I noted in my previous post, with the bike in Eco mode, i still average about 110-120bpm for an hour, twice a day. This is about the equivalent of a brisk walk, or very slow jog. This is great exercise. It burns calories and works large muscle groups, and doesn't put a lot of physical stress on the body. You can recover quickly, and thus do it every day.
> 
> ...


This.

I’m not looking to unlock the engine and speed like a jerk at 50 mph, I still want to pedal and sweat while keeping my hr at 130/150 on the uphills.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Devastazione said:


> This.
> 
> I’m not looking to unlock the engine and speed like a jerk at 50 mph, I still want to pedal and sweat while keeping my hr at 130/150 on the uphills.


As part of keeping up with a group?

I'm not sure what you are looking to accomplish. Each and every one of us that didn't win the TDF has some sort of training challenge. 

I don't use a HRM but presumably I could regulate my effort (go slower) to keep it below 130/150. That's free. 

Do you figure going faster under the same or less effort will be more fun? I suppose we all do but accept that cycling is not a motorized sport and accept that our speed given a certain effort is what it is.

I totally get Ebikes for commuting and perhaps keeping up with friends you wouldn't otherwise be able to ride with on social rides. But fitness is what it is so for a fitness sport I don't really see the point.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Finx said:


> It's not like riding a motorcycle. I would suggest you take one on a demo ride before you say stuff like this.


You've a valid point so I will re-phrase my comment.

Riding an e-bike is not going to help you meet the goal of staying fit ENOUGH to maintain the speed and/or distances you are accustomed to when riding a non e-bike.. At the end of the day, it's got a motor that is helping you maintain some of the speed you desire, at the expense of the human motor doing all the work.

But there are a ton of ways to maintain some of that fitness. Paying for spin classes is likely cheaper and probably as good if not better an exercise.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

Obligatory

All main transport buses in area (RTA) have bike racks year round. A good part of the fleet is under wire so when I take my bike aboard, does that qualify as an E-Bike excursion?

Considering the yearly miles I used to log, there have been a handful of bonks where an alternative like an E-bike would have seemed like the bee's knees. OTOH, most of those years were "weight weenie" years and I could not have justified the extra weight and still held my head up on group rides!

Alternatives.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I want to be clear here. E-Bikes have their purpose. They are a utility vehicle, not a race bike.

I still do group rides once or twice a week when I have time, and I do them on my road bikes. 

In summer, I ride gravel on most weekends, some times both days. I do this on my Norco Search XR or my Moots Routt RSL, depending on the planned terrain.

I don't race, or ride competitively in any way. Sure, the group rides can have a competitive bent to them, but I'm not 'training' to win a Wednesday Night Worlds ride. I do those for the fun and fitness when time allows. 

I would not use the E-Bike on a group ride, or in an organized charity event (Fondo/Sportiv, etc..), or even on a weekend epic. In fact, i would not use it in any scenario where close quarters riding is involved (i.e. a paceline). 

It does make commuting to work a lot more feasible and a lot less frustrating (which means I'm a lot more likely to do it). More bike miles, less car miles, more time outside enjoying fresh air and sunshine, and less time in my car grinding through bumper to bumper traffic.

Edit: Let me put this another way. By riding an E-Bike to work instead of driving, i'm not trading road bike miles for E-Bike miles. I'm trading car commute miles for E-Bike commute miles. There are so many good reasons to do this. I'm pretty sure you don't need me to list them here. 


Edit2: 


Steve B. said:


> there are a ton of ways to maintain some of that fitness. Paying for spin classes is likely cheaper and probably as good if not better an exercise.




Why on earth would want to spend time indoors in a spin class? I would pay good money to NOT have to do that.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I completely understand the usage as outlined by Finx. As an economical commuter in the right environment (climate, infrastructure...), it makes perfect sense. You arrive at work ready to go on a mild endorphin high yet not completely drenched in sweat. Especially for those without convenient shower facilities, it's a viable alternative.

For fitness? Unless there's a physical limitation or you're completely out of shape, I don't understand the cost-benefit here. If you can't go faster/longer, you go slower/shorter and build from there. If you're getting dropped on a group ride, you get dropped until you can hang or you find another ride. You make adjustments to your goals/aspirations, not buy shortcuts to a level of performance that wasn't earned by turning over the pedals. Sorry, to me that's about as bad as mainlining EPO, but I understand some don't see the same ethical parallel.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Is root of this thread about fitness or mid life crisis?

Fitness\ability changes as we age, no getting around that. Better to understand that and make allowances than to expect to keep pace with a younger crowd.
Or get one of "those" Doctors. The one that hands out the right prescriptions.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Finx said:


> I want to be clear here. E-Bikes have their purpose. They are a utility vehicle, not a race bike.
> 
> I still do group rides once or twice a week when I have time, and I do them on my road bikes.
> 
> ...


Not for me either. The OP seemingly doesn’t get much time to ride in winter months, thus faces the problem many face of losing fitness over the winter. I swim and will mt. bike. Neither keeps me in shape for hard road rides, but outside of doing something really concentrated in terms of effort level over a short period of time, like spinning, I’m not seeing a great answer, other than just getting on the bike and riding. An E-bike seems to be an expensive and not great answer.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Steve B. said:


> Not for me either. The OP seemingly doesn’t get much time to ride in winter months, thus faces the problem many face of losing fitness over the winter. I swim and will mt. bike. Neither keeps me in shape for hard road rides, but outside of doing something really concentrated in terms of effort level over a short period of time, like spinning, I’m not seeing a great answer, other than just getting on the bike and riding. An E-bike seems to be an expensive and not great answer.


That's what I'm thinking. You want to maintain bike-specific fitness? Ride. "Off-season" training options have never been so plentiful. Fat bikes, spin classes, Zwift... It's to the point that it's easier to burn yourself out prepping for riding season than during the summer months.

Of course, one needs to identify the personal reasons they ride, and then tailor the solution to address that. Just because ebikes make little sense to me from a recreational standpoint doesn't make it so for someone else. However, I still reserve the right to question "fitness" as a justification for their use. It's not like riding a bike is (at it's core) a strenuous form of locomotion once a certain level of basic proficiency is achieved. You can choose to make it harder (and faster), but it's still a choice you make for the most part- given modern gearing options.

I don't recover as easily as I did when I was 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, or 45. I don't drop weight like I once did. I have to keep modifying my diet and training to achieve similar results, or deal with the decline in performance. There's always some area that I'm slacking on that's holding me back. My diet is crap. I don't get enough sleep. I don't ride hard/easy enough when I should. My socks aren't the right height... I get out what I put in. That's the deal I made. I realized long ago that I'm not elite material and there is a ceiling on what I can and can't achieve. As I get older, that ceiling of potential gets lower and lower, but if I'm 100% honest, I haven't yet come close to realizing my own potential because of my life choices. I'm fine with that, because my life is more than riding around on kids' toys in my underwear. Not a whole lot more, but there is some other stuff in there.

Point is, based on *my* narrow perception of cycling and why someone would want to do it, an ebike just doesn't fit in. YMMV.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Devastazione said:


> Anyone riding a real road E bike ? Something like a Pinarello Nitro or Bianchi Aria Eroad or Focus Paralane,something that turn heads I mean
> If so,care to share ? I'm almost 46,busy with family an ride only 7 months per year ( including flu/cold and vacation time) during winter months,each and every year is becoming increasingly difficult to gain a decent fitness. It's not that I can't do it anymore,it's just recovery times are becoming a true issue and when I push it a bit because I feel good my body feels hammered for 2/3 days. And no,no time to stretch at the gym or whatever else..


A couple of things I've learned in my 75 years. First, fitness has to be very high on your priority list and you need to make it high on your families. You'll be of no value to anyone when your health goes to hell. I was 70 when I began climbing most of the famous climbs in the Dolomites. I still keep cycling high enough on my priority list to suffer through the pain of the training each spring after skiing most of the winter (after 65 years, snow skiing in the resort is close to zero exercise ever when you ski hard). As you get older you will find that, with day 1 being exercise day, day three will be when the soreness shows up until you regain fitness. It will go away fairly quickly as long as you do a couple of hours three times a week.


In regard to e-bikes: Don't be fooled by new entries into the e-bike market by manufacturers of high end road bikes. E-bikes made for the European market discontinue to provide assistance at 25*kph*. That does not mean that there are no European companies that make e-bikes for the US market. Make sure that the one you buy provides power assist up to 28*MPH*. It will make road riding much safer as you remain in the vision of overtaking cars longer and there will be fewer of them.

I have an e-bike that was bought in early 2014 for my wife so she could join me on riding vacations in the Alps. It was from a very reputable company from Germany (Haibike) but their sizing was absurd and it was always too big for her. I now use it for making the shuttle on river fly fishing trips and it works great.

Regarding exercise: The good news is that nearly every experienced bike rider will push themselves to get exercise that corresponds to their fitness level. An e-bike usually has four levels of assist and it will be natural to keep turning down the assist as fitness improves (highway rides notwithstanding).


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

HTFU. For @&^# sake, you're 46, not 86. 

My club is comprised mostly of guys in the 50s - doctors, business owners... with kids, houses... you know grownup ****. Lots of the guys still race, do fast group rides, etc. Not quite ready to blow out the candle. 

Wake up earlier. Get a Kickr. Subscribed to Zwift.. there are lots of ways to squeeze in rides.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

While I have no interest in an e-bike for myself, it may have its merits if it's a difference between riding and losing interest in the sport and instead plopping your arse in front of the TV.

As has been said, an e-bike (really e-assist) isn't a "free ride". You have to pedal it for the motor to kick in. So you do get some exercise.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Lombard said:


> While I have no interest in an e-bike for myself, it may have its merits if it's a difference between riding and losing interest in the sport and instead plopping your arse in front of the TV.
> 
> As has been said, an e-bike (really e-assist) isn't a "free ride". You have to pedal it for the motor to kick in. So you do get some exercise.


I mostly agree with you but is just seems wrong to me to plunk down 6 or 7 grand to get free speed when you dont have any physical ailment. The OP doesn't say if he's riding with others but If you show up with a Pinarello ebike, there may be some judgement to contend with


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

DaveG said:


> I mostly agree with you but is just seems wrong to me to plunk down 6 or 7 grand to get free speed when you dont have any physical ailment. The OP doesn't say if he's riding with others but If you show up with a Pinarello ebike, there may be some judgement to contend with


E-Bikes in general are not "6 or 7 grand". Well, you might be able to buy one that costs that much, but it's kind of like buying a completely blinged out top-of-the-line road bike fully decked out with the most expensive weight weenie parts for $11k. 

The BMC I bought is certainly a premium model with lightweight carbon, Shimano STEPS 8000 and Di2 shifting. The MSRP is $5999, but as far as i know, no one pays that much for them (I certainly didn't). 

You can get very serviceable commuters that are not made of premium carbon, but do have good quality electric components for $2500 or so. You can get budget models for $1500 and up. 

If you look at the companies selling E-Bikes to the masses, most of them don't even stock bikes in that price range. Of course you can go to Trek, Specialized, or BMC and spend that kind of money on a premium ride, it's not where most people are spending their money.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> Wake up earlier. Get a Kickr. Subscribed to Zwift.. there are lots of ways to squeeze in rides.


No.No.And no. I'm not hysterical about cycling and I don't get paid to ride.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Lombard said:


> As has been said, an e-bike (really e-assist) isn't a "free ride". You have to pedal it for the motor to kick in. So you do get some exercise.


Most people don't get this,even those who test an E Bike just our of curiosity. I remember a guy who turned into the bike shop with his E bike from Trek *****ing about how the battery ran out after a little while. The douche kept the chain on the 11's all the time and set pedal assist to max power. The bike shop guy told him he shoule have got a moped...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Devastazione said:


> No.No.And no. I'm not hysterichal about cycling and I don't get paid to ride.


Then just ride what you got and quit worrying about it. Maintain a level of fitness that you can while living your life and don't worry about what you were able to maintain 10 years ago.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Finx said:


> E-Bikes in general are not "6 or 7 grand". Well, you might be able to buy one that costs that much, but it's kind of like buying a completely blinged out top-of-the-line road bike fully decked out with the most expensive weight weenie parts for $11k.
> 
> The BMC I bought is certainly a premium model with lightweight carbon, Shimano STEPS 8000 and Di2 shifting. The MSRP is $5999, but as far as i know, no one pays that much for them (I certainly didn't).
> 
> ...


The bikes the OP listed are in that price range


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

Devastazione said:


> This.
> 
> I’m not looking to unlock the engine and speed like a jerk at 50 mph, I still want to pedal and sweat while keeping my hr at 130/150 on the uphills.


Okay, you want to pedal and sweat and keep your heart rate at 130-150 on the uphills? How does an ebike make this any more likely than riding your regular bike?

It sounds like you just want to justify buying a new toy.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Devastazione said:


> ...I'm almost 46,busy with family an ride only 7 months per year ( including flu/cold and vacation time) during winter months,each and every year is becoming increasingly difficult to gain a decent fitness... And no,no time to stretch at the gym or whatever else..


"Wake up earlier. Get a Kickr. Subscribed to Zwift.. there are lots of ways to squeeze in rides."



Devastazione said:


> No.No.And no. I'm not hysterical about cycling and I don't get paid to ride.


At this point, I haven't a clue what you're talking about - you don't have time, you want to build fitness... I suggest getting up earlier and/or using a trainer, but you're not "hysterical about cycling."

Dude, NONE of us gets paid to ride. We ride, train, race - whatever, because we love it. If you only want to ride when it's 70 and sunny just embrace the slow and don't blame the weather, your family, your schedule, etc. Just be slow.. and sure, buy that ebike - it'll remind you what fast feels like ;-)


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

OldZaskar said:


> At this point, *I haven't a clue what you're talking about *- you don't have time, you want to build fitness... I suggest getting up earlier and/or using a trainer, but you're not "hysterical about cycling."


He wants free fitness, you know, the kind you don't have to work for.


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## davesupra (Jun 19, 2017)

If the guy has reasons that he wants to ride an e-bike, who cares, let him ride whatever he wants without getting grilled about it.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> He wants free fitness, you know, the kind you don't have to work for.


The notion that you can't / don't gain fitness by riding an e-bike is based in ignorance. 

You can ride an indoor trainer on near zero resistance and you can ride your road bike at 5 mph on the flats. The thing that keeps you from screwing off is the desire for improved fitness. 

The only thing that is different about an e-bike is that the same amount of rider input with produce higher speeds. It will enhance the journey to fitness is the same way as the other two if the desire is the same.

What does impede fitness is pissing away precious free time instead of using it to improve the speed and endurance required to accomplish goals.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> What does impede fitness is pissing away precious free time instead of using it to improve the speed and endurance required to accomplish goals.


I think every one of us here in this thread is guilty of this, don't you think? :yesnod:


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Lombard said:


> I think every one of us here in this thread is guilty of this, don't you think? :yesnod:


No question about it.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> I think every one of us here in this thread is guilty of this, don't you think? :yesnod:


True dat.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

My problem is as I get older, I don't recover as fast or as well, as I did even a few years ago. I used to easily manage a 9k mile year. Now, 6k to 7k is far more realistic. I cant do 300 mile weekends every weekend in the summer like I used to. I just need more rest. 

Not specific to that point, but cycling tips has article out that is relevant to this thread.

E-Road Bikes don't make you faster (unless you are going up a steep hill).

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/opinion-an-e-road-bike-wont-make-you-faster/

In my case, even if my E-Bike was an electric moped capable of 30mph, I couldn't ride it that fast. My E-Bike commutes are 15 miles on a heavily used MUT. During peak commute time, especially in good weather, there is just too much traffic to be going much over the posted 15mph speed limit. Having a faster bike (or a faster rider) wouldn't make my commutes any faster. This is one of the reasons I opted for a class 2 (25kph) assist cutoff. So I wouldn't be tempted to ride dangerously on the trail (many others do this, much to my disdain).


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> What does impede fitness is pissing away precious free time instead of using it to improve the speed and endurance required to accomplish goals.





Lombard said:


> I think every one of us here in this thread is guilty of this, don't you think? :yesnod:


Speak for yourself. I dictate my posts to my valet while I'm doing intervals on a trainer.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Devastazione said:


> No.No.And no. I'm not hysterical about cycling and I don't get paid to ride.


From Basic Training for Roadies by Fred Matheny: here's a 7 hours a week, weekly schedule that works for many riders:

Monday: Rest day with 15 minutes of resistance training.
Tuesday: Ride 1 hour with 3-8 sprints or other short, hard efforts.
Wednesday: Ride 1 hour at a steady, moderate pace.
Thursday: Ride 1 hour including about 20 minutes of any type of hard effort.
Friday: Rest day with 15 minutes of resistance training.
Saturday: Ride 1 hour at an easy pace.
Sunday: Ride 3 hours at a varied pace. Group rides or hilly courses are good choices.

Remember, intensity is one key to this program. If you could ride 200 to 400 miles per week, sheer volume would guarantee a high level of fitness. But you can't.

At the age of 46, you don't likely have any physical limitations. The only reason for you to get an e-bike would be to keep up on group rides. If riding solo, your HR is totally determined by your effort and all the ebike does is make you go faster. Is the goal only to go faster?


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm seriously thinking of getting a eMBike, if they can make it stealth enough. Trek is suppose to be coming out with a 300w unit, I'd be all in with that.

I would not allow ebikes on a group ride, unless it is around the lake with the kids.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> What does impede fitness is pissing away precious free time instead of using it to improve the speed and endurance required to accomplish goals.


Are you talking about posting on the forum, or some other worthless porn searches?


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## wsuv (Oct 26, 2016)

*Suggestions*

Most of the people in our club are getting the Giant e-road. Drop bars, Ultegra shifting, 28mph peak speed. But it is aluminum and heavy. Seems a waste to get carbon, just to stick 25lbs of battery and motor on it. They all report that they get a good workout on the e-bike - just as good as their normal bikes. But now they can keep up with their spouses. Most report the benefits are on the hills. In ECO mode, you get about 100 miles on a charge.

I know what you mean about winter. But consider trying to do training vs the e-bike. If you do High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) you can get the same benefits of a 2 hour ride in about 60 minutes. Plus research shows that interval training is more engaging than normal spinning. Check out the YouTube videos by CTXC. Free and they have workouts from 20 to 120 minutes. I suggest starting with the 45 minute video which is a bit easier. If you want to save a bit of time, skip the first 5 minutes. The 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50, and 55 minute videos are much harder. They have shorter warmup, cool down and recovery times. The 60 minute video is also a good starting point. Again, skip the first 5 minutes if you want to save some time. Check out Craigslist or estate sales in your area to pick up a cheap trainer. If you end up finding indoor training acceptable, then invest in something nicer. One last piece of advice, use the trainer as close to outdoors as you can. A balcony, garage (ideally with door open), porch, deck, etc. Keeping cool is critical. If you have to use it indoors, have a fan blowing on you.

Some of the more elite riders in our club have invested in smart trainers and Zwift. They claim it is very realistic and they can easily put 2 hours on the trainer and still have fun.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

wsuv said:


> ...just to stick 25lbs of battery and motor on it.



The Shimano STEPS e8000 weighs about 5.5kg


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

velodog said:


> He wants free fitness, you know, the kind you don't have to work for.


My hope is that between robots and e-bikes we can achieve the Utopian future predicted in the Disney film "Wall-E"


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

wsuv said:


> Some of the more elite riders in our club have invested in smart trainers and Zwift. They claim it is very realistic and they can easily put 2 hours on the trainer and still have fun.



I recently watched the first few episodes of the now defunct "Caprica" series. Isn't this how the Cylons were born???


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## fatiredflyer (Mar 12, 2002)

Finx said:


> My problem is as I get older, I don't recover as fast or as well, as I did even a few years ago.


It gets worse.
Soon, even an E-Road bike won't be enough for your old bones, and you'll want a V-Twin...
As my_ fast_, old Italian training buddy said: "Find more rides, not more bikes!"


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## wsuv (Oct 26, 2016)

*Good to hear*



Finx said:


> The Shimano STEPS e8000 weighs about 5.5kg


Good to hear they are getting the weight down. But the idea still applies. Let's say the carbon frame and components is about 7kg. Going to an aluminum frame might add 1/2 kg. So the bike weight goes from 12.5kg to 13kg. 

Still you might pay the money for carbon to get a smoother ride or a smiggen more efficiency. But I hear modern aluminum frames are have better ride characteristics than the old ones. Not to mention most e-bikes have 32cc tires.

When you are the only motor on the bike, frame choice is a big deal. I would think that having the extra motor makes the frame decision less critical. As long as it fits.


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## jdsyachts (Mar 2, 2015)

Devastazione said:


> Anyone riding a real road E bike ? Something like a Pinarello Nitro or Bianchi Aria Eroad or Focus Paralane,something that turn heads I mean
> If so,care to share ? ..


I'm 68, 5 replaced joints, recurring cancer, and recently diagnosed with mild COPD. I just bought an Orbea Gain. I've for 3 weeks and only been able to put on about 300 miles so far because of the weather. I got this one because of deteriorating health and strength and want to keep riding - it is the only exercise I can do. I want to work up a sweat and put in the miles. Last year I did, without an ebike, 9000 miles and 600,000' and hope to do that again this year but with some assistance. What the figures do not show is the pain I've been putting up with.
The weight factor is one of the major reasons for selecting this bike. This uses the same drive as the Bianchi mentioned by the OP. It is something that I can in fact pedal without the motor - just finished a 25 mile ride without assist. It is also adjustable as to how much power you want to apply for each of the three available settings. The motor will only assist when you are pedaling so you have to work. So far this is doing exactly what I want. The only con I can think of is that to use the app you have to turn on the location function of your smartphone (drains my phone battery too much).
My longest and most difficult ride so far has been 32 miles with 3200' and I used 32% of the battery capacity. A metric is easily within reach and probably I'll attempt a century later this year.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Again, I get the utility of an eBike. A lot of localities banned mopeds on the streets years ago (for various reasons), but have not extended the restrictions to eBikes (for various reasons). Some (not all) allow them on MUTs/MUPs. The bike manufacturers are recognizing the potential and are jumping on the bandwagon, hoping the trend has more legs than fatbikes, gravel bikes, or any of the other relatively niche markets they've saturated over the years. One less car out there running an individual to work, delivering Chinese food, running errands... the list is pretty long for the utility market if the public's mood is properly stimulated. Of course, changing the culture is a pretty tall order in historically car-centric countries or in environments that don't have the infrastructure or climate for sustained usage. I know a growing number of RV owners look at them as runabouts instead of towing around a car. If it gets a fat-body off the couch, I can't argue with that. Every little bit helps.

But, a *performance* eBike? This I'm not so fond of. Buying your way into a sporty paceline or reaching the top of a challenging climb with motor assist... it cheapens the endeavor. At a certain point such behavior will become normalized, much like doping was in the professional peloton in the late '90s and early '00s- what people think is a legitimate way to reach a certain level or performance. When it happens, I guess I'll stop racing and will be pedaling my dino-bike alone, getting brushed aside by fat, vaping kids on eBikes.

Getting slower is part of life. Get over it.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Alaska Mike said:


> Again, I get the utility of an eBike. A lot of localities banned mopeds on the streets years ago (for various reasons), but have not extended the restrictions to eBikes (for various reasons). Some (not all) allow them on MUTs/MUPs. The bike manufacturers are recognizing the potential and are jumping on the bandwagon, hoping the trend has more legs than fatbikes, gravel bikes, or any of the other relatively niche markets they've saturated over the years. One less car out there running an individual to work, delivering Chinese food, running errands... the list is pretty long for the utility market if the public's mood is properly stimulated. Of course, changing the culture is a pretty tall order in historically car-centric countries or in environments that don't have the infrastructure or climate for sustained usage. I know a growing number of RV owners look at them as runabouts instead of towing around a car. If it gets a fat-body off the couch, I can't argue with that. Every little bit helps.
> 
> But, a *performance* eBike? This I'm not so fond of. Buying your way into a sporty paceline or reaching the top of a challenging climb with motor assist... it cheapens the endeavor. At a certain point such behavior will become normalized, much like doping was in the professional peloton in the late '90s and early '00s- what people think is a legitimate way to reach a certain level or performance. When it happens, I guess I'll stop racing and* will be pedaling my dino-bike alone*, getting brushed aside by fat, vaping kids on eBikes.
> 
> Getting slower is part of life. Get over it.


You ain't gonna be alone.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Steve B. said:


> Getting an e-bike isn't going to help you keep fit.
> 
> The problem is you can't find the time to maintain the level of speed and distance you are accustomed to. An electric motor will let you see that speed and distance but won't add fitness doing it. You need to reevaluate your goals. Maybe go a bit slower or the same speed over a shorter distance. Or find an alternative activity that you can squeeze in when the weather is bad, swimming, walking, etc...


You can tell this guy hasn't ever had an e-bike, because he has no idea what he's talking about. 

I average about 155bpm on my commute on an ebike. The new Specialied ebikes will even show you power, you can get as much of a workout as you want and tailor assist levels to speed/range. When you ride an ebike, you're still pedaling and moving. You're just getting there faster. Which, for me, with two small kids at home and limited time, is a pretty big deal - it's the difference between being able to commute on a bike and just not. 

For someone getting back into riding, a recreational ride on an ebike is going to smooth out the parts of a ride that would blow them up and end it. Or that, even worse, would cause them to decide not to do it. 

Ebikes are entirely underrated fitness tools.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

wsuv said:


> Good to hear they are getting the weight down. But the idea still applies. Let's say the carbon frame and components is about 7kg. Going to an aluminum frame might add 1/2 kg. So the bike weight goes from 12.5kg to 13kg.
> 
> Still you might pay the money for carbon to get a smoother ride or a smiggen more efficiency. But I hear modern aluminum frames are have better ride characteristics than the old ones. Not to mention most e-bikes have 32cc tires.
> 
> When you are the only motor on the bike, frame choice is a big deal. I would think that having the extra motor makes the frame decision less critical. As long as it fits.


The amount of weight an e-bike adds to the total weight of rider plus bike is not a huge percentage. I mean, you're right, just take the weight of the rider into account and it's not that big of a deal


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Devastazione said:


> Anyone riding a real road E bike ? Something like a Pinarello Nitro or Bianchi Aria Eroad or Focus Paralane,*something that turn heads *I mean
> If so,care to share ? I'm almost 46,busy with family an ride only 7 months per year ( including flu/cold and vacation time) during winter months,each and every year is becoming increasingly difficult to gain a decent fitness. *It's not that I can't do it anymore,it's just recovery times are becoming a true issue and when I push it a bit because I feel good my body feels hammered for 2/3 days*. And no,no time to stretch at the gym or whatever else..





masont said:


> You can tell this guy hasn't ever had an e-bike, because he has no idea what he's talking about.
> 
> I average about 155bpm on my commute on an ebike. The new Specialied ebikes will even show you power, you can get as much of a workout as you want and tailor assist levels to speed/range. When you ride an ebike, you're still pedaling and moving. You're just getting there faster. Which, for me, with two small kids at home and limited time, is a pretty big deal - it's the difference between being able to commute on a bike and just not.
> 
> ...


But as he said in the OP he doesn't recover as quickly as he once did. So it doesn't matter if he uses a conventional bike or an e-bike to gain his fitness he's still gonna be hammered, as he said, for a couple of days. An hour pushing one self is an hour of pushing oneself and the need for recovery is there whether an e-bike or a conventional bike, so it'll take the same couple of days.

He also said that he wants something that turns heads, which leads me to believe that it's more about the illusion of fitness than true fitness. 

Like I hinted at in another post, "Mid Life Crisis".


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> But as he said in the OP he doesn't recover as quickly as he once did. So it doesn't matter if he uses a conventional bike or an e-bike to gain his fitness he's still gonna be hammered, as he said, for a couple of days. An hour pushing one self is an hour of pushing oneself and the need for recovery is there whether an e-bike or a conventional bike, so it'll take the same couple of days.
> 
> He also said that he wants something that turns heads, which leads me to believe that it's more about the illusion of fitness than true fitness.
> 
> Like I hinted at in another post, "Mid Life Crisis".


Yep. Been there and done that, while getting portly at age 41. Gave up the will for speed in my 60s. 10 years later, still fit as a fiddle, as one will be if he keeps riding, doesn't beat himself to a pulp, or get fat and portly. The cumulative effects of training add up over a lifetime and carry on when the furnace cools down. If an electric bike does it, sure. Just be nice to the guys on manual bikes!


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Well,as expected there’s still a lot of ignorance surrounding the E bike thing. Some answers here are true gems. But hey, the industry is NOT investing millions in e bike R&D because people know better,that for sure.
Thats’s all folks,looking forward to show off my 8k euro Pinarello to compensate for my midlife crisis. Still cheaper than a mistress and a divorce I guess.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> "Mid Life Crisis".


Been there, done that. I'm trying to remember what that was like.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Devastazione said:


> Well,as expected there’s still a lot of ignorance surrounding the E bike thing. Some answers here are true gems. But hey, the industry is NOT investing millions in e bike R&D because people know better,that for sure.
> Thats’s all folks,looking forward to show off my 8k euro Pinarello to compensate for my midlife crisis. Still cheaper than a mistress and a divorce I guess.


Well, there has always been money to be made in people that are looking for the easy path; fad diets and CoolSculpting being examples. That doesn't mean its a positive thing. Of course, it's you money and and can buy whatever you want. I am not so sure group rides will be all that welcoming of a high-zoot racing bike with a motor, so that may be a consideration if you are not thick skinned


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Not pertinent to the discussion, but I spotted 2 Class-2 e-bikes heading onto the Bethpage State Park (NY) mt. bike/hiking trails today. Big batteries, big motors, if I hadn't seen the pedals I would have mistaken them for gas powered dirt motorcycles. 

One rider had a nice mud racing stripe up his ass and jacket, so maybe using a touch too much throttle in the hills. I had just done a mt. bike loop, conditions were soft but dry, but I could see that these guys were likely making a bit of a mess. It's the local mountain bike club - CLIMB that A) Got permission to build the trail system, B) Does all the maintenance. 

1) E-Bikes are illegal to ride on roads or paths in NY State. 2) E-Bikes are illegal to ride in NY State Parks. 3) E-bikes are illegal to ride on any trails, paved or dirt in NY State.

So ask me if I think e-bikes are a good thing.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

The majority of the money to be made selling e-bikes is going to come from selling them to people who currently don't own a bike, or don't ride the one they have because they live in a hilly neighborhood.

My girlfriend, who has no interest in cycling beyond the occasional Sunday afternoon ride through the park, sent me a link to an ebike she saw advertised and asked me if it was a good deal (it wasn't). 

I asked her why she was shopping for e-bikes. She said "it looks like fun. My girlfriend just got one and said she loved it".

I don't think there is a huge market selling drop bar electric road bikes to Roadies.

Commuters, cruisers, Urban/City bikes, cargo bikes, and even performance MTBs will be the primary market drivers.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Finx said:


> The majority of the money to be made selling e-bikes is going to come from selling them to people who currently don't own a bike, or don't ride the one they have because they live in a hilly neighborhood.
> 
> My girlfriend, who has no interest in cycling beyond the occasional Sunday afternoon ride through the park, sent me a link to an ebike she saw advertised and asked me if it was a good deal (it wasn't).
> 
> ...


Yes, absolutely! The ebike isn’t a bad idea... Quite the opposite, it’s a GREAT idea. It will serve and even create a new niche... It just isn’t a bicycle.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

PBL450 said:


> ... It just isn’t a bicycle.


I'm afraid the industry and most state lawmakers disagree with you. If it's pedal assisted (not self propelled) and is speed restricted to match local laws, it qualifies as a 'bicycle'.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

OK. It’s not a bicycle. I’m not concerned with how anyone else defines it... it’s a moped. It is EXACTLY a moped. This isn’t a critique... it is simply data. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

PBL450 said:


> OK. It’s not a bicycle. I’m not concerned with how anyone else defines it... it’s a moped. It is EXACTLY a moped. This isn’t a critique... it is simply data.


PBL450 I agree with you 100% and, I've made that point a couple times... doesn't matter. Somehow, because the new mopeds use electric motors instead of combustion engines, they're "ebikes." They remind me of vegans and vegetarians - always making "bacon-flavored ___" or "____ sausage" You'll never catch an omnivore eating tofu-flavored bacon. And, we won't try to disguise a bicycle as a motorcycle... you know, and try to hide the pedals and convince you it's really a motorcycle.


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

OldZaskar said:


> You'll never catch an omnivore eating tofu-flavored bacon.


This is gold.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

ogre said:


> This is gold.


Of the highest grade.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

"mechanical doping"


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Been there, done that. I'm trying to remember what that was like.


It was like saving up $20s in the top dresser drawer for a year and springing for a top of the line racing bike, a replica of the ones Eddy Merckx creamed the field on. Ride partners wowed, "Oh, that's the Lamborghini of bicycles!" [translation: "I'm cool!"]. Riding it was like turning back the clock 10 years. Centuries became a pleasure, not a chore. 

When you get old, you die. So don't get old!  The Italian panache built into that Pinarello will satisfy like nothing else!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


> PBL450 I agree with you 100% and, I've made that point a couple times... doesn't matter. Somehow, because the new mopeds use electric motors instead of combustion engines, they're "ebikes." They remind me of vegans and vegetarians - always making "bacon-flavored ___" or "____ sausage" You'll never catch an omnivore eating tofu-flavored bacon. And, we won't try to disguise a bicycle as a motorcycle... you know, and try to hide the pedals and convince you it's really a motorcycle.


I think everyone knows a hybrid is still a car, a lot cabin is a house, a rib eye is a steak and on and on.

Sometimes terms are used to distinguish differences. Who really gives a fck about semantics? (Well, you do so I'm not really asking.)

It is what it is. Call it a ham sandwich for all I care.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think everyone knows a hybrid is still a car, a lot cabin is a house, a rib eye is a steak and on and on.
> 
> Sometimes terms are used to distinguish differences. Who really gives a fck about semantics? (Well, you do so I'm not really asking.)
> 
> It is what it is. Call it a ham sandwich for all I care.


I think its a bit beyond semantics. If a rider told you they rode a 4 hour century you'd be impressed. If they they mentioned it was on an e-bike you'd be a lot less impressed


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think everyone knows a hybrid is still a car, a lot cabin is a house, a rib eye is a steak and on and on.
> 
> Sometimes terms are used to distinguish differences. Who really gives a fck about semantics? (Well, you do so I'm not really asking.)
> 
> It is what it is. Call it a ham sandwich for all I care.


^^^This.^^^


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

DaveG said:


> I think its a bit beyond semantics. If a rider told you they rode a 4 hour century you'd be impressed. If they they mentioned it was on an e-bike you'd be a lot less impressed


Well no kidding. That's got nothing to do with the context of the discussion. I wouldn't be more impressed if they failed to mention it was a children's tricycle with three flat tires in to a 20 mph headwind either. Undisclosed information is another topic.

You're right the topic on this site is a bit beyond semantics though. I'm not really sure what it is and probably couldn't articulate it if I did know but fragile egos and exclusivity are definitely involved.

Certain people us the term eBike to describe certain bike types. That's all there is to that.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm not really sure what it is and probably couldn't articulate it if I did know *but fragile egos and exclusivity are definitely involved*.


Nailed it!


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

I could see two to three similarly sized riders sharing a performance e-bike and normal bike(s) for motor paced HIIT.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> When you get old, you die. So don't get old!


When you get old first you get slow, and if you get slow enough it takes longer to the die part.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

M point was simply that that the ebike, IMO, is a great idea. It’s market is not going to be keeping aging cyclists riding longer with pedal assist. It’s money is going to come from a new niche rider using it as a commuter and townie. The pedals will simply act to allow it on a MUT. Does it belong there? I don’t think anything going fast belongs on MUTS, at least where I live where walkers and strollers and skaters are common... Is it cycling? Not in my opinion, and the fraction of the market that helps someone to continue to participate in the sport can define that however they like, including as ham sandwiches, but the market that will blow the lid off this idea doesn’t give half a crap about this debate. They are vaping teenagers as said, and eco friendly urbanites and people that want a cheap convenient townie... The 2 markets will not exist together... IMO.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Bremerradkurier said:


> I could see two to three similarly sized riders sharing a performance e-bike and normal bike(s) for motor paced HIIT.


Was out on a group ride once and we hammered it to catch some stoner (looked like) on an old school moped just because.
We were dead by the time we caught his wheel and couldn't pass. To make a short story even shorter he paced us at about 27mph for around 20 miles. That was pretty fun, and he got a big kick out of it too.

For the delicate flowers who are concerned over that......I didn't tell anyone I rode 27mph for 20 miles, we called his moped a moped, and I'm pretty sure none of us have it on strava.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Was out on a group ride once and we hammered it to catch some stoner (looked like) on an old school moped just because.
> We were dead by the time we caught his wheel and couldn't pass. To make a short story even shorter he paced us at about 27mph for around 20 miles. That was pretty fun, and he got a big kick out of it too.
> 
> For the delicate flowers who are concerned over that......I didn't tell anyone I rode 27mph for 20 miles, we called his moped a moped, and I'm pretty sure none of us have it on strava.


I once rode in a 60 deep rolling echelon in 53x12 for an hour through the German countryside on a blue bird sky day and rapeseed fields in full neon yellow bloom.

Covered almost 30 miles in that hour alternating between "this is frickin awesome" and "this is gonna really hurt if someone can't recover from a wheel touch."


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

PBL450 said:


> M point was simply that that the ebike, IMO, is a great idea. It’s market is not going to be keeping aging cyclists riding longer with pedal assist. It’s money is going to come from a new niche rider using it as a commuter and townie. The pedals will simply act to allow it on a MUT. Does it belong there? I don’t think anything going fast belongs on MUTS, at least where I live where walkers and strollers and skaters are common... Is it cycling? Not in my opinion, and the fraction of the market that helps someone to continue to participate in the sport can define that however they like, including as ham sandwiches, but the market that will blow the lid off this idea doesn’t give half a crap about this debate. They are vaping teenagers as said, and eco friendly urbanites and people that want a cheap convenient townie... The 2 markets will not exist together... IMO.


I have several friends and relatives that have e-bikes (perhaps a dozen or more). Not one is under the age of 68 and all were serious cyclists -- some still are.

I have one that originally belonged to my wife that I use for fly fishing now and, as of a couple of weeks ago, there are two new ones in my garage. 

My wife and I recently purchased two haibike mtbs with 150mm suspension for a couple of reasons. One reason is, once the snow clears, to get back to riding steep single track and abandoned logging roads that we enjoyed so much from the time we first met in the early 80's. 

The second--- In the past several years our 1 1/2 mile trail has been relegated to our morning walks. It is really steep single track and on our best days I could ride the repeated 20 to 30% grades about 45 minutes before exhaustion. It is great interval training but sucks for endurance. The benefit of riding that trail surfaces during our cold and wet winters when we could ride in the worst weather, knowing that a hot shower and dry clothes were available immediately at the end of any given lap. In addition, we could ride the trail when it's frozen. 

Well, riding the trail is back as I can now ride for an 90 minutes (7 laps) and have already been able to drop the assist level. With the weather finally getting better, I am mixing road rides on my regular bikes. I am enjoying my hi-mod even more now as the contrast between the 47 lb e-bike and the 15 lb hi-mod is big. On the other hand, the e-mtb is re-sharpening my reflexes as our trail has numerous steep and sharp hairpins that are a blast to descend.

The training benefit data of the e-mtb is not available, however, by mid July of this year I will have FTP data on my road bike to compare to the past 10 years to see if the decline of the past several years can be reversed. I'll be 75 yo and continue to believe that most of the loss of power generally related to aging is more related to getting lazier. Winning at anything in life is a process of elimination of the excuses that authorize failure and this e-mtb checks one more off of the list.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

DaveG said:


> I think its a bit beyond semantics. If a rider told you they rode a 4 hour century you'd be impressed. If they they mentioned it was on an e-bike you'd be a lot less impressed


If I went on two separate two hour rides, and my power/heart rate was identical for those two rides, and on one I went farther because it was on an e-bike, are those fundamentally different activities?

Put another way, if you go on a two hour ride on a road bike, and then a two hour ride on a cruiser and your power/heart rate is identical for those two rides, and one went farther because it's a road bike instead of a cruiser, are those fundamentally different activities?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

masont said:


> If I went on two separate two hour rides, and my power/heart rate was identical for those two rides, and on one I went farther because it was on an e-bike, are those fundamentally different activities?
> 
> Put another way, if you go on a two hour ride on a road bike, and then a two hour ride on a cruiser and your power/heart rate is identical for those two rides, and one went farther because it's a road bike instead of a cruiser, are those fundamentally different activities?


That depends.

Do you have somewhere to be in two hours or is the ride just about fitness\health? Are you trying to keep up with a crowd that is younger and or stronger than yourself or is it just about fitness\health?

If it's just about fitness\health there's no real fundamental difference, so why the need for an e-bike.

If you have somewhere to be in two hours and it's beyond your capabilities to get there in the prescribed time on a bicycle, then an e-bike offers an advantage.

If it's about keeping up with a younger and or stronger crowd, that is dropping you on a bicycle, than it is about massaging your ego, so you might as well just go out and get a corvette.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

velodog said:


> That depends.
> 
> Do you have somewhere to be in two hours or is the ride just about fitness\health? Are you trying to keep up with a crowd that is younger and or stronger than yourself or is it just about fitness\health?
> 
> ...


If it's just about fitness/health, and you're doing the same wattage/hr on either bike, what's the problem with the ebike?

If going to ride with a younger, fitter crowd is something you can do with an ebike but not without it, you're getting a way better workout than not going because you can't hold the pace. And maybe you can go ride with your friends who happen to be fitter than you, and you like to hang out with your friends and hate to slow them down. Assuming it's about ego is just all of your bias making you irrational. There are plenty of reasons people could use one besides ego.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

In your example you are simply buying speed. You are certainly welcome to buy an e-bike, just dont be surprised when riders on bikes treat you differently


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

DaveG said:


> just dont be surprised when riders on bikes treat you differently


And why in the world one should even ever give a slightly F about how other people treat you ? Seriously dude,it’s just a bike and bike riding,you need to get your priorities worked out. Feel free to flip me when you’ll cross me or even pass me when i’ll be on my Nitro, that’ll boost your ego..


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

DaveG said:


> In your example you are simply buying speed. You are certainly welcome to buy an e-bike, just dont be surprised when riders on bikes treat you differently


This.

Imagine someone posted on this forum about wanting to blood dope "just a little bit" so they could be as fast as the guys they ride with or be as strong as they were in their 20s. They might not get the reception they hoped for.

Why should we view this not-so-marginal gain (in the performance context) any differently? The guys who were doped to the gills in the Armstrong era still had to "put in the work", as they all have claimed.

Call me a misinformed Luddite if you will, but "performance ebikes" are not welcome around me when I'm riding alone or in a group. I'd much rather get my teeth kicked in by a strong rider than the guy that purchased the biggest motor. When I'm bleeding out of my eyes to keep up, I probably would be inclined to Cinzano any eBike pushing the pace. Go form your moped gang somewhere else.
View attachment 324862


Again, for utility (e.g. commuting) usage in a non-sporting context, I have no problem with them. In the right environment, I might be tempted to buy one. My primary reasons for buying one would not be fitness-related, because I am self-aware enough to realize I would just be deluding myself. Any return to self-propulsion would probably result in de-motivation.

If slow is all you have in the legs, go slow.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Alaska Mike said:


> This.
> 
> Imagine someone posted on this forum about wanting to blood dope "just a little bit" so they could be as fast as the guys they ride with or be as strong as they were in their 20s. They might not get the reception they hoped for.
> 
> ...


Yes. Please feel free to flip me aswell,that will make you feel more of a man,i’m sure. But not on saturdays afternoons,those will be the days i’ll ride my standard C64.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Devastazione said:


> And why in the world one should even ever give a slightly F about how other people treat you ? Seriously dude,it’s just a bike and bike riding,you need to get your priorities worked out. Feel free to flip me when you’ll cross me or even pass me when i’ll be on my Nitro, that’ll boost my ego..


For someone who doesn't give a F about what others think, you sure are upset about those that don't see it your way.

I've got a serious question, if anyone wants to answer it...

If riding an e-bike does allow you to gain fitness that is unattainable on a conventional bike, will you or have you gone back to the conventional bike once said fitness is attained? Is it a tool to gain something or is it a forever tool?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Devastazione said:


> Yes. Please feel free to flip me aswell,that will make you feel more of a man,i’m sure. But not on saturdays afternoons,those will be the days i’ll ride my standard C64.


Do you enjoy riding slow on Saturdays or is it your rest day?


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

velodog said:


> For someone who doesn't give a F about what others think, you sure are upset about those that don't see it your way.
> 
> I've got a serious question, if anyone wants to answer it...
> 
> If riding an e-bike does allow you to gain fitness that is unattainable on a conventional bike, will you or have you gone back to the conventional bike once said fitness is attained? Is it a tool to gain something or is it a forever tool?


Far from being upset,i’m just italian,we use a lot of F bombs all the times. I’d say I feel more sorry about all this talibanism...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Devastazione said:


> Far from being upset,i’m just italian,we use a lot of F bombs all the times. I’d say I feel more sorry about all this talibanism...


So it's a forever tool.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

velodog said:


> Do you enjoy riding slow on Saturdays or is it your rest day?


No idea,Saturdays are best ride days because I never look at the garmin. Give it a try.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Do some homework before you buy a Nytro.

My local Pinarello dealer sent all of their Nytros back. 

They had serious issues with the first few out of the box. They wouldn't even put them on the floor for customers to see them.

They didn't specify exactly what the problems were, but they did use some colorful language describing them.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

DaveG said:


> In your example you are simply buying speed. You are certainly welcome to buy an e-bike, just dont be surprised when riders on bikes treat you differently


Why on earth would you give a rip if someone showed up to a group ride and had pedal assist because they needed it to keep up? How does that affect you? Why do you care?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

masont said:


> Why on earth would you give a rip if someone showed up to a group ride and had pedal assist because they needed it to keep up? How does that affect you? Why do you care?


Well, the ebike rider has to be polite and respect the manual bike riders. He can react, play defense. But he can't jump up to the front and make everyone try to keep up with him, or attack on the hills. :hand: 

IOW, if he tries to "compete," egos will get bruised; he'll have to go back to the C64 and play it fair and square! Ugh!! What a terrible fate! :cryin:


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Finx said:


> Do some homework before you buy a Nytro.
> 
> My local Pinarello dealer sent all of their Nytros back.
> 
> ...


Good to know,thanks. It’ll be another solid 2 years before I will seriously consider an e bike purchase. I talked about Nytro as an example as probably along with the Bianchi Aria is the only good looking,not in-your-face E bike.
This post was supposed to be some homework too,but as you see nazis and talibans stormed the place..


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> Well, the ebike rider has to be polite and respect the manual bike riders. He can react, play defense. But he can't jump up to the front and make everyone try to keep up with him, or attack on the hills. :hand:
> 
> IOW, if he tries to "compete," egos will get bruised; he'll have to go back to the C64 and play it fair and square! Ugh!! What a terrible fate! :cryin:


You have this exactly right. Those who would ride an e-bike to beat the guys on regular bikes to the top of a climb (or to any destination) have serious ego / insecurity issues--almost to the degree of those who don't want to ride around e-bikes.

In either case, you'd do well to improve your skill at picking riding friends.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Steve B. said:


> Not pertinent to the discussion, but I spotted 2 Class-2 e-bikes heading onto the Bethpage State Park (NY) mt. bike/hiking trails today. Big batteries, big motors, if I hadn't seen the pedals I would have mistaken them for gas powered dirt motorcycles.
> 
> One rider had a nice mud racing stripe up his ass and jacket, so maybe using a touch too much throttle in the hills. I had just done a mt. bike loop, conditions were soft but dry, but I could see that these guys were likely making a bit of a mess. It's the local mountain bike club - CLIMB that A) Got permission to build the trail system, B) Does all the maintenance.
> 
> ...


Please do show us the laws associated with your post. I'd have a little issue with anyone attempting to enforce some of these laws. While the folks of NY State may not be the brightest bulbs on the path to enlightenment, I doubt that they're completely burned out?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Steve B. said:


> 1) E-Bikes are illegal to ride on roads or paths in NY State. 2) E-Bikes are illegal to ride in NY State Parks. 3) E-bikes are illegal to ride on any trails, paved or dirt in NY State.
> 
> So ask me if I think e-bikes are a good thing.


E-bikes with a throttle are illegal in NY. E-bikes (e-assist bikes) where the motor only engages when you pedal are NOT illegal in NY.

Facts matter.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Lombard said:


> E-bikes with a throttle are illegal in NY. E-bikes (e-assist bikes) where the motor only engages when you pedal are NOT illegal in NY.
> 
> Facts matter.


Those e-bikes have a throttle, it's in the pedal system. Either use the correct term or actual law.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

duriel said:


> Those e-bikes have a throttle, it's in the pedal system. Either use the correct term or actual law.


Pedal assist bikes are allowed in NY City:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/nyregion/are-electric-bikes-about-to-take-over-new-york.html

Are e-bikes legal now?

Not all of them. The new law applies only to “pedal assist” bikes, which give riders a boost but are meant to run no faster than 20 m.p.h. Still banned are “throttle” bikes, which can whiz along without any assistance from the cyclist, achieving speeds of roughly 28 m.p.h.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

e-bikes still have a throttle, they don't run 100% wide open full power till they don't!

Now, the legal definition of 'throttle' as defined by the NYC and NYS legal system is their definition. But all e-bike have some type of control for the power, which meets the webster's definition of throttle.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Well, the ebike rider has to be polite and respect the manual bike riders. He can react, play defense. But he can't jump up to the front and make everyone try to keep up with him, or attack on the hills. :hand:
> 
> IOW, if he tries to "compete," egos will get bruised; he'll have to go back to the C64 and play it fair and square! Ugh!! What a terrible fate! :cryin:


You really think some dude who needs an e-bike to keep up is going to start talking smack or attacking on the hills? If so, you need better friends. 

Your made-up scenario is duly noted, but man, you need to spend less time worrying about other people, what they do, and why they do it.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

masont said:


> You really think some dude who needs an e-bike to keep up is going to start talking smack or attacking on the hills? If so, you need better friends.
> 
> Your made-up scenario is duly noted, but man, you need to spend less time worrying about other people, what they do, and why they do it.


I do worry about what other people do while they're doing it around me. I've been taken down a couple too many times not to be worried. What they do on their own or in approved group settings, I'm less concerned about.

Let's put it this way- if I organize a group ride and an eBike shows up, it will have to be OK with every other rider that they participate. Since I will be there, it likely won't be. If I show up for another group ride and an eBike shows up, then it's my option to sit out if I don't agree with the group consensus or if I think the rider is unskilled at that pace or otherwise potentially causing harm (directly or indirectly) to myself or others.

Of course, since apparently I'm a member of the Taliban and/or Nazi Party now (I wonder how my security clearance will be affected?), voicing my distaste for the platform in a performance-oriented setting is strictly prohibited.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> Please do show us the laws associated with your post. I'd have a little issue with anyone attempting to enforce some of these laws. While the folks of NY State may not be the brightest bulbs on the path to enlightenment, I doubt that they're completely burned out?


https://www.evelo.com/new-york-state-electric-bike-laws-definition/

https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/E-Bike-Law-Handouts_NY_Revision_compressed.pdf

Pretty much every MUT/Cycle path in NY has “No Motorized Vehicles Allowed”. In State Parks, motorized vehicles only on roads as designated (there are essentially none) or as one of the links shows is paths specifically designated (I think there are 2 in NY State). 

When the state law is that motorized vehicles need to be registered and you cannot register an e-bike, then e-bikes cannot be ridden excepting as designated excepting on private property, it goes with saying that they are typically not allowed in State Parks. 

NYC has its own rules.

I will add that I am hoping NY State changes it’s rules to allow Class 1 e-bikes for all places a human powered bicycle is allowed, excepting mt. bike or other off road trails, with usage to be decided on a case by case basis and where the usage will not be expected to cause more damage to the trail surface than would be expected by a human powered bike. 

Class 2 e-bikes should be banned from MUT’s as well as off paved road use, except where designated as open to motorized vehicles. They have, thru more powerful batteries and variable throttle systems, the potential to reach speeds inappropriate to MUTs as well as cause trail damage. 

The fight that mt. bike advocacy groups has had to get trail systems developed, is long and might be setback if Class 2’s are allowed and if Class 1’s are not regulated.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

duriel said:


> e-bikes still have a throttle, they don't run 100% wide open full power till they don't!
> 
> Now, the legal definition of 'throttle' as defined by the NYC and NYS legal system is their definition. But all e-bike have some type of control for the power, which meets the webster's definition of throttle.


Throttle is usually referring to a handlebar mounted twist type control of the motor. Class 2 in other words. Class 1 has its motor assist only activate while pedaling, that’s not what is meant by a throttle usually.

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ic-bike-classes-and-why-do-they-matter.22738/


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

duriel said:


> e-bikes still have a throttle, they don't run 100% wide open full power till they don't!
> 
> Now, the legal definition of 'throttle' as defined by the NYC and NYS legal system is their definition. But all e-bike have some type of control for the power, which meets the webster's definition of throttle.


Under your astute observation of what Webster has to say, my Cannondale hi-mod is illegal in NY State. It has a power meter that responds to the pressure from my legs /feet. And, the harder I press, the faster it goes. 

Who knew!


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> I do worry about what other people do while they're doing it around me. I've been taken down a couple too many times not to be worried. What they do on their own or in approved group settings, I'm less concerned about.
> 
> Let's put it this way- if I organize a group ride and an eBike shows up, it will have to be OK with every other rider that they participate. Since I will be there, it likely won't be. If I show up for another group ride and an eBike shows up, then it's my option to sit out if I don't agree with the group consensus or if I think the rider is unskilled at that pace or otherwise potentially causing harm (directly or indirectly) to myself or others.
> 
> Of course, since apparently I'm a member of the Taliban and/or Nazi Party now (I wonder how my security clearance will be affected?), voicing my distaste for the platform in a performance-oriented setting is strictly prohibited.


Lol. Poor you. Such a martyr.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Steve B. said:


> Throttle is usually referring to a handlebar mounted twist type control of the motor. Class 2 in other words. Class 1 has its motor assist only activate while pedaling, that’s not what is meant by a throttle usually.
> 
> https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ic-bike-classes-and-why-do-they-matter.22738/


That post is for CA, and every location will be different. CA laws definite proves that this whole issue is a lot more complicated than a simple answer.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

masont said:


> You really think some dude who needs an e-bike to keep up is going to start talking smack or attacking on the hills? If so, you need better friends.
> 
> Your made-up scenario is duly noted, but man, you need to spend less time worrying about other people, what they do, and why they do it.


Every group ride over 5 riders I've been on in the last 35 years, whether bike clubs or events, is at many points, a hammer fest. I don't know these guys. They aren't all that well organized until they tire a little over half way into the ride, so there's lots of action. Guys try to break away on the flats, the braver ones on the climbs. A group will go off the front full tilt, shedding riders who blow up. 

Shenanigans happen, the larger the ride, the more shenanigans. The temptation to compete, to show your sh!t, is always there! It's intuitive. Riders don't even think about it. I think it has a lot to do with the intensity, like boxing. Both boxing and bike racing are battles of attrition. The guy who holds up the longest wins. If one has electric assist, sooner or later he'll use it to make his statement to the group. Its very difficult to contain.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

masont said:


> Lol. Poor you. Such a martyr.


I'll try to survive. I've been called worse by better.


Fredrico said:


> If one has electric assist, sooner or later he'll use it to make his statement to the group. Its very difficult to contain.


Now in this hypothetical situation that can't possibly ever happen except during just about every group ride, what would be the proper response? What would be the proper response to the friendly guy who motors to the front to "help the group maintain the pace"? Would it be Taliban/Nazi-esque to exclude such a rider? Would the impulse (perhaps not acted upon) to shoulder them into a ditch be understandable?

I don't want to ride with dopers, and in my opinion, ebikers in performance-oriented situations are motor-doping. If you can't hang, get out of the paceline until you can. Then again, I'm a jihadist/fascist. Not about the "Rules" (which I think are drivel), but about the basic essence of the sport that has been the same since the derailleur was invented. You get out what your legs put into it.

Outside of the sporting and traditional group ride considerations, you do you.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> I'll try to survive. I've been called worse by better.


Certainly a believable story


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Alaska Mike said:


> I do worry about what other people do while they're doing it around me. I've been taken down a couple too many times not to be worried. What they do on their own or in approved group settings, I'm less concerned about.
> 
> Let's put it this way- if I organize a group ride and an eBike shows up, it will have to be OK with every other rider that they participate. Since I will be there, it likely won't be. If I show up for another group ride and an eBike shows up, then it's my option to sit out if I don't agree with the group consensus or if I think the rider is unskilled at that pace or otherwise potentially causing harm (directly or indirectly) to myself or others.
> 
> Of course, since apparently I'm a member of the Taliban and/or Nazi Party now (I wonder how my security clearance will be affected?), voicing my distaste for the platform in a performance-oriented setting is strictly prohibited.


so you'd go all tantrum if a guy like Lennard Zinn showed up for a group ride? He's come down with a serious heart ailment that precludes his ability to ride his road bike much especially with his US National Road Racing Team alumni, the tens of thousands of folks who ride his custom frames, and the millions whom read his long running columns in VeloNews. The eBike has saved him from having to give up his lifelong passion.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/06/bi...ike-can-life-changing-lifelong-cyclist_470738

but this kind of rider .. he's really beneath you and your precious lil group ride I guess

-

now I still do fine with regular road bike at speeds a bit lower than a typical hammerfest club ride, however I am scheduled for open heart surgery in 10 days from now (bad heart valve due to some infection resulting in cardiomegaly exacerbated by doing a lot of cycling for 45 years). On the trails I have had to switch to an eMTB, which has exactly 0 difference in impact to the trails (proven by IMBA) and are welcomed here. Hopefully after a year or two of recovery my heart will be ready to go MTB without the E, but for this past year it has been a saviour for me.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

I am changing my mind on e-bikes. I want one of these

https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/scrambler

Badass looks, 1100 watts, 37mph top end, a seat so your girl can ride in the back, it's got it all


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> I do worry about what other people do while they're doing it around me. I've been taken down a couple too many times not to be worried. What they do on their own or in approved group settings, I'm less concerned about.
> 
> Let's put it this way- if I organize a group ride and an eBike shows up, it will have to be OK with every other rider that they participate. Since I will be there, it likely won't be. If I show up for another group ride and an eBike shows up, then it's my option to sit out if I don't agree with the group consensus or if I think the rider is unskilled at that pace or otherwise potentially causing harm (directly or indirectly) to myself or others.


If someone shows up on a ride I'm leading and does dangerous stuff, it doesn't matter what kind of bike they're on. They get warned once and if they don't change, they're off the ride, period. 

What kind of bike they are on is irrelevant.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> I am changing my mind on e-bikes. I want one of these
> 
> https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/scrambler
> 
> Badass looks, 1100 watts, 37mph top end, a seat so your girl can ride in the back, it's got it all


The training benefits that you're going to reap with that e-bike are going to be phenomenal. Gonna be riding like a pro in no time.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

velodog said:


> The training benefits that you're going to reap with that e-bike are going to be phenomenal. Gonna be riding like a pro in no time.


With a bike like that you aren't riding in lycra, its full-on leathers with a chain wallet


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

DaveG said:


> I am changing my mind on e-bikes. I want one of these
> 
> https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/scrambler
> 
> Badass looks, 1100 watts, 37mph top end, a seat so your girl can ride in the back, it's got it all


It’s the kickstand that sold me.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

That tippy toe side stand is nice, but.... that is going to be rather harsh ride, @ 30 with no rear susp, a big pot hole is going to be life changing.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

BCSaltchucker said:


> so you'd go all tantrum if a guy like Lennard Zinn showed up for a group ride? He's come down with a serious heart ailment that precludes his ability to ride his road bike much especially with his US National Road Racing Team alumni, the tens of thousands of folks who ride his custom frames, and the millions whom read his long running columns in VeloNews. The eBike has saved him from having to give up his lifelong passion.
> 
> https://www.velonews.com/2018/06/bi...ike-can-life-changing-lifelong-cyclist_470738
> 
> ...


Blows my mind that people would prefer you stop riding than show up with an e-bike. I'm so glad that tech exists.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Derny ebike could be a lot of fun pacing up group rides.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

BCSaltchucker said:


> so you'd go all tantrum if a guy like Lennard Zinn showed up for a group ride?


I'd expect someone like Lennard to show a little common courtesy and get pre-approval from the group he intended to ride with before showing up on an eBike. Someone like Lennard has a valid reason to ride an eBike (physical ailment) that isn't related to the inability to accept the aging process.


masont said:


> Blows my mind that people would prefer you stop riding than show up with an e-bike. I'm so glad that tech exists.


I never said people should stop riding.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

duriel said:


> That tippy toe side stand is nice, but.... that is going to be rather harsh ride, @ 30 with no rear susp, a big pot hole is going to be life changing.


Haha, that’s an excellent point!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

some ebikers are pussified, too chickenshit to ride on the road, but go on the trail and they go like a badass. Why?


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL0iJBZNjWI


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Finx said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL0iJBZNjWI


Damn, it coasts uphill too! 

“Wait, I’ll be right back, I forgot the keys to my bike!”


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> If one has electric assist, sooner or later he'll use it to make his statement to the group. Its very difficult to contain.


And what is that statement? Is your fear that someone on a stealth e-bike will go undetected on a group ride and gain bragging rights?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> And what is that statement? Is your fear that someone on a stealth e-bike will go undetected on a group ride and gain bragging rights?


Well, if I have to sprint to stay in his draft, I'll get pissed off. 

These cheaters just better respect the dynamic of the group. The kids always show off on their manual bikes. They'd do it on electric bikes too, mark my words! :yesnod: Put a mild-mannered kid on a 16# carbon racing bike, he'll become the Hulk in disguise on every climb. Hammerfests haven't changed a whit in 40 years, probably since bicycling started. The new uber lightweight bikes have made it worse! The temptations are just too great. rider will overcompensate with that nice electric boost. Its the nature of the game. :hand:


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

I've noticed a lot of people have issues with the "group ride " thing. Crap,you must live a very lone and miserable life if group rides and opinions have such an impact on your ego. 
The most miserable rides I had are ( thank god maybe twice a year at best) group rides,I always make sure to skip invitations on them.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Devastazione said:


> I've noticed a lot of people have issues with the "group ride " thing. Crap,you must live a very lone and miserable life if group rides and opinions have such an impact on your ego.
> The most miserable rides I had are ( thank god maybe twice a year at best) group rides,I always make sure to skip invitations on them.


Exactly. Unless you're in a sanctioned race, who cares. As long as nobody is doing anything dangerous, who cares?

The "cheater" is really only cheating him/herself in this case. Personally, I don't see the point of using an e-bike to be able to ride with a stronger group. I would just ride with a slower group, but that's just me.

As I said before, if using an e-bike keeps you on the bike, you're getting more exercise than if you quit because you lose interest. So it's all good.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Fredrico said:


> Well, if I have to sprint to stay in his draft, I'll get pissed off.
> 
> These cheaters just better respect the dynamic of the group. The kids always show off on their manual bikes. They'd do it on electric bikes too, mark my words! :yesnod: Put a mild-mannered kid on a 16# carbon racing bike, he'll become the Hulk in disguise on every climb. Hammerfests haven't changed a whit in 40 years, probably since bicycling started. The new uber lightweight bikes have made it worse! The temptations are just too great. rider will overcompensate with that nice electric boost. Its the nature of the game. :hand:


HTFU old man. 

Get with the times! Keep up or get out!

Maybe it's time to retire?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Finx said:


> HTFU old man.
> 
> Get with the times! Keep up or get out!
> 
> Maybe it's time to retire?


Why would you directly quote a Lance to LeMond conversation?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Finx said:


> HTFU old man.
> 
> Get with the times! Keep up or get out!
> 
> Maybe it's time to retire?


HTFU, Time to retire? If I'm not mistaken, the man is in his 70's, and he's still managing to get out there and ride his bike without power assist. He's riding his pace and ain't asking nobody to slow down so he can keep up, sounds like he's doing just fine and don't need to "get with the times".


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> Well, if I have to sprint to stay in his draft, I'll get pissed off.
> 
> These cheaters just better respect the dynamic of the group. The kids always show off on their manual bikes. They'd do it on electric bikes too, mark my words! :yesnod: Put a mild-mannered kid on a 16# carbon racing bike, he'll become the Hulk in disguise on every climb. Hammerfests haven't changed a whit in 40 years, probably since bicycling started. The new uber lightweight bikes have made it worse! The temptations are just too great. rider will overcompensate with that nice electric boost. Its the nature of the game. :hand:


This year I've seen more e-bikes in one day than I did all of last year on our local MUT. Not once did I see anyone young. It's a fantasy that kid's ride e-bikes (or any other bike after the age of 11).

Parenting skills are a thing of the past. Kids now lay on their butts and play video games in the basement until they're 35. They're too fat to roll over so kicking their asses would be out of the question even if the odd parent should develop a backbone.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> This year I've seen more e-bikes in one day than I did all of last year on our local MUT. Not once did I see anyone young. It's a fantasy that kid's ride e-bikes (or any other bike after the age of 11).
> 
> Parenting skills are a thing of the past. Kids now lay on their butts and play video games in the basement until they're 35. They're too fat to roll over so kicking their asses would be out of the question even if the odd parent should develop a backbone.


I hear ya!

I must be thinking of a bygone era! Then again, everybody sits and finger these little things they carry in their hand at all times, barely paying attention to their surroundings. Talk about bad parenting. :frown2: 

Thanks for the heads up on the electric bikers being mostly past mid life crisis. They won't be off the front showing off! Then again, they'll look dorky on those heavy bikes, not cool like manual "cyclists," hands on the hoods, clipped in, spinning effortlessly, showing the plebeians how it's done. :yesnod:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Finx said:


> HTFU old man.
> 
> Get with the times! Keep up or get out!
> 
> Maybe it's time to retire?


Never! I'll give up the bike when the grim reaper takes it out of my cold, dead hands!

You're right, though. Everyone wants to kiss the old folks goodbye and banish them to the assisted living home. What a waste of talent! What a horrible thing to do to your mothers and fathers. "You're done, Dad. Over the hill. :frown2: So long! " There's some serious Oedipus complex going on here. When you do something embarrassing, they lay their hand tenderly on your shoulder, say they're so sorry, and write it off as an early symptom of senility. The nurse in ER after the last crash confided, "Maybe you're getting too old to ride a bike, sir! It's awfully dangerous for someone your age!" :nono: 

Hell no.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Never! *I'll give up the bike when the grim reaper takes it out of my cold, dead hands!*
> 
> You're right, though.  Everyone wants to kiss the old folks goodbye and banish them to the assisted living home. What a waste of talent! What a horrible thing to do to your mothers and fathers. "You're done, Dad. Over the hill. :frown2: So long! " There's some serious Oedipus complex going on here. When you do something embarrassing, they lay their hand tenderly on your shoulder, say they're so sorry, and write it off as an early symptom of senility. The nurse in ER after the last crash confided, "Maybe you're getting too old to ride a bike, sir! It's awfully dangerous for someone your age!" :nono:
> 
> Hell no.


^^^This.^^^ Heck, you're a young fella compared to a couple of cyclists I've ridden with. I occasionally ride with a guy who is 85. He's slowing down for sure, but he can still climb. He's a steady Eddie and while slow on the climbs, he doesn't need to take breaks. I can only hope to be doing what he's doing when I get to that age!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Opinion: An e-bike won't make you faster

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/opinion-an-e-road-bike-wont-make-you-faster/


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

"Serious e-bike" reminds me of George Carlin's bit on "jumbo shrimp."


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> Opinion: An e-bike won't make you faster
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2019/03/opinion-an-e-road-bike-wont-make-you-faster/


Well there you have it. Settled science!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> I hear ya!
> 
> I must be thinking of a bygone era! Then again, everybody sits and finger these little things they carry in their hand at all times, barely paying attention to their surroundings. Talk about bad parenting. :frown2:
> 
> Thanks for the heads up on the electric bikers being mostly past mid life crisis. They won't be off the front showing off! *Then again, they'll look dorky on those heavy bikes, not cool like manual "cyclists," hands on the hoods, clipped in, spinning effortlessly, showing the plebeians how it's done.* :yesnod:


There's no question about that. I'm not ready for an e-bike for the road (except for the shuttle when fly fishing), however, when the time comes that I'm holding up my riding partners, I'll be switching over for those rides. 

My brother is 82 and switched over a couple of years ago. I'm grateful to be able to ride with him and still get a good workout.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> There's no question about that. I'm not ready for an e-bike for the road (except for the shuttle when fly fishing), *however, when the time comes that I'm holding up my riding partners, I'll be switching over for those rides.
> *
> My brother is 82 and switched over a couple of years ago. I'm grateful to be able to ride with him and still get a good workout.



What happens when the percentage of e-bike riders becomes greater than those on conventional bikes and those on the conventional bikes have to get e-bikes just to keep up with his/her friends on e-bikes?

Does everyone go back to conventional bikes because they have become unnecessary, everyone having aged and slowed more or less equally, or are the e-bikes kept, well, because we wanna go fast?


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

velodog said:


> What happens when the percentage of e-bike riders becomes greater than those on conventional bikes and those on the conventional bikes have to get e-bikes just to keep up with his/her friends on e-bikes?


I'm thinking my Kawa would be able to keep up with them!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

duriel said:


> I'm thinking my Kawa would be able to keep up with them!


Hell Dude, that makes a lot more sense than a battery on a bicycle.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

SwiftSolo said:


> This year I've seen more e-bikes in one day than I did all of last year on our local MUT. Not once did I see anyone young. It's a fantasy that kid's ride e-bikes (or any other bike after the age of 11).
> 
> Parenting skills are a thing of the past. Kids now lay on their butts and play video games in the basement until they're 35. They're too fat to roll over so kicking their asses would be out of the question even if the odd parent should develop a backbone.


Please tell me you're joking


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

velodog said:


> What happens when the percentage of e-bike riders becomes greater than those on conventional bikes and those on the conventional bikes have to get e-bikes just to keep up with his/her friends on e-bikes?


The ebike motors cut out at 25-32kph. Ain't no chance that strong riders are going to be dropped by ebikes, since they can cruise at 35-40kph on team rides. Well unless every road nearby is a hill or mountain with no flat, then the ebikes reign.

I've been encouraging my dad to get a proper road ebike. He insists on using a conventional bike (ex champion racer aged 76), and then every month or three it slams his heart into atrial fibrillation, requiring all kinds of heart-reset-procedures, and hospital stays and many surgeries. Then he is back out hammering again for 80km rides. I think eBike is the solution, but it is up to him to choose.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

BCSaltchucker said:


> The ebike motors cut out at 25-32kph. Ain't no chance that strong riders are going to be dropped by ebikes, since they can cruise at 35-40kph on team rides. Well unless every road nearby is a hill or mountain with no flat, then the ebikes reign.


My best times on the ebike are still considerably slower than the KOMs on the climbs I ride on my commute.

Then there is the range issue. At my weight, Boost mode isn't going to last long enough to hang with any group rides.

I'd be doing well to get 50 miles on Eco mode on a flat ride. No chance I could hang with a fast group in the mode.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I've been encouraging my dad to get a proper road ebike. He insists on using a conventional bike (ex champion racer aged 76), and then every month or three it slams his heart into atrial fibrillation, requiring all kinds of heart-reset-procedures, and hospital stays and many surgeries. Then he is back out hammering again for 80km rides. I think eBike is the solution, but it is up to him to choose.


Is exercise really connected with a-fib? I'm thinking that riding is what's kept him alive.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Is exercise really connected with a-fib? I'm thinking that riding is what's kept him alive.


Apparently... yes. Some study just released - spending significant time at 80% of your max HR... blah, blah... increases chance of a-fib. Oh, also eggs are bad for us again and aspirin isn't good for us anymore. 
Check back in a couple years... it'll change again. Hence the "practice" part of medicine. ;-)


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

If you are truly elderly, or have some actual condition that means you are simply incapable of developing the fitness to ride a bike, then by all means, get an ebike. 

Otherwise...... lame. 

I think eBikes are fantastic from a utility standpoint. Commuting, errands, etc. But as a form of fitness/sport/recreation, like road/gravel riding? Lame. I’d just get a motorcycle and stop pretending.

EDIT: Never mind, I just saw that Juiced Scrambler. That is so hot. I'm in. I'll have total cred with the bikers on that.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

BCSaltchucker said:


> The ebike motors cut out at 25-32kph. *Ain't no chance that strong riders are going to be dropped by ebikes*, since they can cruise at 35-40kph on team rides. Well unless every road nearby is a hill or mountain with no flat, then the ebikes reign.
> 
> I've been encouraging my dad to get a proper road ebike. He insists on using a conventional bike (ex champion racer aged 76), and then every month or three it slams his heart into atrial fibrillation, requiring all kinds of heart-reset-procedures, and hospital stays and many surgeries. Then he is back out hammering again for 80km rides. I think eBike is the solution, but it is up to him to choose.


Maybe I wasn't clear but I was speaking to the crowd aging to the point that there were no more "strong" riders, and an e-bike was needed to keep up with the other e-bikes. At that point what is the purpose of the e-bike, if all of the group has equalized, so to speak?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear but I was speaking to the crowd aging to the point that there were no more "strong" riders, and an e-bike was needed to keep up with the other e-bikes. At that point what is the purpose of the e-bike, if all of the group has equalized, so to speak?


Sort of reminds me of the way motor vehicles are getting higher and higher because people like to see out over everybody else. The trouble is, when everybody else's vehicle is also higher, you have to get an even higher vehicle. And so the madness never ends.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Sort of reminds me of the way motor vehicles are getting higher and higher because people like to see out over everybody else. The trouble is, when everybody else's vehicle is also higher, you have to get an even higher vehicle. And so the madness never ends.


Lombard, our state is on the verge of legalizing marijuana, so I imagine drivers will be plenty high


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> *Maybe I wasn't clear but I was speaking to the crowd aging to the point that there were no more "strong" riders, and an e-bike was needed to keep up with the other e-bikes.* At that point what is the purpose of the e-bike, if all of the group has equalized, so to speak?


It doesn't really work that way. It may be hard to understand but e-bikes, like regular bikes, can go more than one speed. 

When you get into your seventies health issues begin to affect friends to different degrees. Long time skiing and riding friends still enjoy keeping these relationships together. Skiing is easy (gravity) and those with years of experience can remain as fast as ever if they keep it up into their 80's. Biking--not so much.

I'm heading to Santa Ynez at the end of the month with 9 or 10 of my skiing/biking friends for one of our annual rides (5 days of riding). Their will be three e-bikes with us this year as one of my friends has afib, another has muscular dystrophy, and his wife just finished her third operation for breast cancer. None of those three will hold us up and I can assure you that the trip would lose something if they were not there. We lost a good friend this past spring due to cancer and he will be missed.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> It doesn't really work that way. It may be hard to understand but e-bikes, like regular bikes, can go more than one speed.
> 
> When you get into your seventies health issues begin to affect friends to different degrees. Long time skiing and riding friends still enjoy keeping these relationships together. Skiing is easy (gravity) and those with years of experience can remain as fast as ever if they keep it up into their 80's. Biking--not so much.
> 
> I'm heading to Santa Ynez at the end of the month with 9 or 10 of my skiing/biking friends for one of our annual rides (5 days of riding). Their will be three e-bikes with us this year as one of my friends has afib, another has muscular dystrophy, and his wife just finished her third operation for breast cancer. None of those three will hold us up and I can assure you that the trip would lose something if they were not there. We lost a good friend this past spring due to cancer and he will be missed.


The point of my question is when the whole group succumbs to age and become "equal" again, as far as strength and speed, what then, e-bikes or drag out the conventional bikes again.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> The point of my question is when the whole group succumbs to age and become "equal" again, as far as strength and speed, what then, e-bikes or drag out the conventional bikes again.


Sure, the group could just go at 12-15 mph pace in easy gears. Old riders around here have been doing that for years.

Well, see, the trouble is in the hills. Old folks usually put on weight while they lose strength and endurance. Gravity becomes a real enemy. The motor assist makes it possible for them to finish the ride. Better than staying home. :yesnod:


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

velodog said:


> The point of my question is when the whole group succumbs to age and become "equal" again, as far as strength and speed, what then, e-bikes or drag out the conventional bikes again.


Perhaps if your group is closed off to newbies. 
The group I ride with recently got a young buck who's still in college riding with us. He's a blast and really eager to learn and take input. And our oldest guys are upper 60's. I honestly hope they consider an e-bike in the coming years to keep riding with the young'ns.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Perhaps if your group is closed off to newbies.
> The group I ride with recently got a young buck who's still in college riding with us. He's a blast and really eager to learn and take input. And our oldest guys are upper 60's. I honestly hope they consider an e-bike in the coming years to keep riding with the young'ns.


60's is nothing. I know people in their 70's and a couple in their 80's who ride and an e-bike is not in their near future.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> 60's is nothing. I know people in their 70's and a couple in their 80's who ride and an e-bike is not in their near future.


No, but they're not keeping up in the A group ride.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

tlg said:


> No, but they're not keeping up in the A group ride.


No one on a (legal) e-bike is keeping up with the A group....


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> The point of my question is when the whole group succumbs to age and become *"equal" again,* as far as strength and speed, what then, e-bikes or drag out the conventional bikes again.


That'll be when we're dead.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> No, but they're not keeping up in the A group ride.


Ha! I was never able to keep up with the A group. The B group is the best I'll ever do when I'm in shape, the C+ when I'm out of shape. In these groups, there are some pretty strong older riders although they do lag on the hills.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> That'll be when we're dead.


I've heard it said that you know you're getting old when the only exercise you get is being Pallbearer at your friends funerals.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> I've heard it said that you know you're getting old when the only exercise you get is being Pallbearer at your friends funerals.


You know you're getting old when doing anything hurts and if it doesn't hurt, it doesn't work.


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## surfinguru (Jun 17, 2004)

Screw all the nay-sayers. An e-bike is the only way my wife can get out there and enjoy the ride. She used to ride her Tarmac until her neck get jacked in a car accident. Now she asks me every time we ride, “did I tell you how much I love my bike?” There’s no way she’d be able to keep up let alone go more then 10-15 miles. Now we do 30+ all the time. She’s in way better shape now since riding the e-bike than she was before.

I guess it’s all in how you decide to use the tool.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Is exercise really connected with a-fib? I'm thinking that riding is what's kept him alive.


this is a theory which is not well established, I'll grant. However there does seem to be a phenomenon of really strong and champion racers/lifelong enthusiasts who later develop debilitating Atrial fibrillation. While the cycling helps keep the blood vessels clear and risk of stroke and heart attack down, it certainly doesn't seem to help prevent Afib, and more likely contributes to the severity of Afib many suspect. Afib is a completely different problem than CVD.


https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/can-you-push-your-heart-too-hard-335700

https://www.roadbikerider.com/a-primer-on-atrial-fibrillation-d2/



> The incidence of atrial fibrillation is 2-10 times higher in athletes participating in extreme endurance sports, and this increases as they age. The possible mechanisms explaining this association remains speculative, however, some possible explanations include increased atrial size, bradycardia (low pulse rate), inflammatory changes and ectopic beats (small variations in the normal heartbeat causing an irregular pulse).


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

BCSaltchucker said:


> this is a theory which is not well established, I'll grant. However there does seem to be a phenomenon of really strong and champion racers/lifelong enthusiasts who later develop debilitating Atrial fibrillation. While the cycling helps keep the blood vessels clear and risk of stroke and heart attack down, it certainly doesn't seem to help prevent Afib, and more likely contributes to the severity of Afib many suspect. Afib is a completely different problem than CVD.
> 
> 
> https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/can-you-push-your-heart-too-hard-335700
> ...


Thanks. BC, great post, and Lombard, good question. The rub here is the volume of training. For world class cyclists the volume is massive. But more importantly, everyone’s physiology is unique. Benefits vs damages will vary by person and the variation can be dramatic. I hate to sound like a PSA but talk to your doc about cycling. Try to let them understand the volume of work you do and talk openly about the many downsides of cycling. They are concerned with your quantity and quality of life, not your cycling goals. Considering their recommendations would be healthy, even if I don’t really do that... we age. We decline. We die. We are human. I think that no one needs to worry about training load. Sh*t is what it is. Do what you love. Live like love matters. Take control of the two inputs you can control... What you put in your mouth and what you put in your head...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Lombard said:


> 60's is nothing. I know people in their 70's and a couple in their 80's who ride and an e-bike is not in their near future.


Are you suggesting that the people you know in their 70's and 80's can still climb and keep up with their friends and family who may be in their 50's or lower? 

Or, are you saying that they are courteous enough not to ride with younger friends and family because they will hold them up significantly? 

Perhaps you're saying that these older folks don't give a sh!t and they see holding folks up as a way to reduce their fitness to his/her level?

Finally, you could be saying that you only ride with folks with an 80 yo's level of fitness?

I am fortunate as I've been healthy and able find the time to train hard enough to keep my fitness at a higher level than my skiing / riding partners. 

However, I also ride with several guys who were my nephews college friends--now in their mid 50's. I don't know how many of those guys I'll be able to keep up with climbing this season. Training gets a little more complicated each year.

Ultimately, I too will be forced to make the choice between switching to an e-bike, quitting, or holding up the pace. 

I'm glad that my friends don't have insecurity issues. If they did, I would have chosen poorly--perhaps from this forum!


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

surfinguru said:


> Screw all the nay-sayers. An e-bike is the only way my wife can get out there and enjoy the ride. She used to ride her Tarmac until her neck get jacked in a car accident. Now she asks me every time we ride, “did I tell you how much I love my bike?” There’s no way she’d be able to keep up let alone go more then 10-15 miles. Now we do 30+ all the time. She’s in way better shape now since riding the e-bike than she was before.
> 
> I guess it’s all in how you decide to use the tool.


Just a guess, but if a medical professional were asked would it be better to not exercise or do so on a bicycle with a battery, the later would prevail.

Candidly I am going to resist as long as possible the battery but honestly at 70 those days are limited.

In the town in Spain I am immigrating to, the seniors (>50) are rapidly shifting over to ebikes, in part because their health care system is very proactive and undoubtedly would answer the question about --- "just do it (exercise)".


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

surfinguru said:


> Screw all the nay-sayers. An e-bike is the only way my wife can get out there and enjoy the ride. She used to ride her Tarmac until her neck get jacked in a car accident. Now she asks me every time we ride, “did I tell you how much I love my bike?” There’s no way she’d be able to keep up let alone go more then 10-15 miles. Now we do 30+ all the time. She’s in way better shape now since riding the e-bike than she was before.
> 
> I guess it’s all in how you decide to use the tool.


Those of us that have posted somewhat negative comments have not been critical of those who are much older or have a medical condition getting an e-bike. The OP stated that he was a healthy, young-ish person who wanted a high-end racing style e-bike because he didn't want to have to train a lot. Some of us thought that was a bad reason to get an e-bike. That is far different from someone with a condition that would prevent them from riding otherwise using a e-bike


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

DaveG said:


> Those of us that have posted somewhat negative comments have not been critical of those who are much older or have a medical condition getting an e-bike. The OP stated that he was a healthy, young-ish person who wanted a high-end racing style e-bike because he didn't want to have to train a lot. Some of us thought that was a bad reason to get an e-bike. That is far different from someone with a condition that would prevent them from riding otherwise using a e-bike


By chance, do you work for MSNBC or CNN? Your quoting skills mimic their technique for both text and context (15% accurate and 85% misleading).

_“Something like a *Pinarello Nitro or Bianchi Aria Eroad or Focus *Paralane ,something that turn heads”
“It's not that I can't do it anymore ,*it's just recovery times are becoming a true issue and when I push it a bit because I feel good my body feels hammered for 2/3 days”*._

Note that all of the companies named make mid range endurance bikes.

One of the reasons (perhaps the main reason) is in bold above.

Who knows, he may have a real job and can't afford to feel hammered for 2/3 days after his rides. Perhaps he likes his wife and kids and doesn't want to spend all of his limited free time riding and recovering.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> By chance, do you work for MSNBC or CNN? Your quoting skills mimic their technique for both text and context (15% accurate and 85% misleading).
> 
> _“Something like a *Pinarello Nitro or Bianchi Aria Eroad or Focus *Paralane ,something that turn heads”
> “It's not that I can't do it anymore ,*it's just recovery times are becoming a true issue and when I push it a bit because I feel good my body feels hammered for 2/3 days”*._
> ...


What about this?

E-bikes: Not just for grown-ups anymore


Photo: Orbea

The lightest e-bike on the market just happens to be for kids. Orbea’s eMX weighs just 15.5 kilograms (about 34 pounds) and is intended for kids ages 6 to 10. The Enough Energy concept battery gives the rider the power he or she needs, nothing more. That keeps the size small and the bike light. The motor is in the hub and won’t overwhelm pedaling the way an adult e-bike motor can. And an iWoc Trio controller allows you to adjust the assist level. There’s even an app you can use to track rides and routes. All of that is combined with many of the features you’d expect from a kids’ bike, like alloy components and a 1X drivetrain. Now you can take your kiddo mountain biking with you, and she’ll have the extra kick to stay on your wheel up the steep climbs.

https://www.velonews.com/2019/03/ne...ike-for-kids-ceramicspeed-for-sram-dub_489716


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Are you suggesting that the people you know in their 70's and 80's can still climb and keep up with their friends and family who may be in their 50's or lower?


I do know riders in their 70's who can hold their own with riders in their 50's.



SwiftSolo said:


> Perhaps you're saying that these older folks don't give a sh!t and they see holding folks up as a way to reduce their fitness to his/her level?


Wrong. When this happens, they move down to the next level, period.



SwiftSolo said:


> Finally, you could be saying that you only ride with folks with an 80 yo's level of fitness?


Where did this one come from? What do you define as an 80 yo's fitness level?



SwiftSolo said:


> I am fortunate as I've been healthy and able find the time to train hard enough to keep my fitness at a higher level than my skiing / riding partners.


Good for you.



SwiftSolo said:


> However, I also ride with several guys who were my nephews college friends--now in their mid 50's. I don't know how many of those guys I'll be able to keep up with climbing this season. Training gets a little more complicated each year.
> 
> Ultimately, I too will be forced to make the choice between switching to an e-bike, quitting, or holding up the pace.


No, you just step down to the next group riding level. Why the heck would you quit?



SwiftSolo said:


> I'm glad that my friends don't have insecurity issues. If they did, I would have chosen poorly--perhaps from this forum!


Reading between the lines of your post, it sure doesn't sound like your friends are the ones who have insecurity issues.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Lombard said:


> I do know riders in their 70's who can hold their own with riders in their 50's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The kind of group riding you're talking about is for those who have no group of long term riding friends. Those who do are not about to kick them aside for some other random (lower) group.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

DaveG said:


> Those of us that have posted somewhat negative comments have not been critical of those who are much older or have a medical condition getting an e-bike. The OP stated that he was a healthy, young-ish person who wanted a high-end racing style e-bike because he didn't want to have to train a lot. Some of us thought that was a bad reason to get an e-bike. That is far different from someone with a condition that would prevent them from riding otherwise using a e-bike


Any reason that gets people out riding a bike is a good reason. Regardless of if the bike has pedal assist or not.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

masont said:


> Any reason that gets people out riding a bike is a good reason. Regardless of if the bike has pedal assist or not.


True.


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

masont said:


> Any reason that gets people out riding a bike is a good reason. Regardless of if the bike has pedal assist or not.


Healthcare providers would agree with you.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

troutmd said:


> Healthcare providers would agree with you.


You would think cyclists would too, wouldn't you?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> What about this?
> 
> E-bikes: Not just for grown-ups anymore
> 
> ...



This is more about the pervasive lack of parenting skills than cycling. While it potentially could play a positive role in a handicapped kids development, I can see nothing positive about it for average children.

It seems to me to be a part of the obsession to deny children their right to fail--to grant success without the inconvenience of a propotional amount of effort. It's a perverse trend that that had its' roots in the 60's and has reached epidemic levels in the last few years.

My hope is that this will be the failure that it deserves to be--handicapped children notwithstanding.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> This is more about the pervasive lack of parenting skills than cycling. While it potentially could play a positive role in a handicapped kids development, I can see nothing positive about it for average children.
> 
> It seems to me to be a part of the obsession to deny children their right to fail--to grant success without the inconvenience of a propotional amount of effort. It's a perverse trend that that had its' roots in the 60's and has reached epidemic levels in the last few years.
> 
> *My hope is that this will be the failure that it deserves to be*--handicapped children notwithstanding.


I'd be fall on my ass surprised if it did fail; look at all the preschool children driving around in their battery powered cars and preteen kids on their electric skateboards.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Perhaps he likes his wife and kids and doesn't want to spend all of his limited free time riding and recovering.


Spot on. Thank you.

Most of my super fit/hardcore riding friends are either single,stuck in bad marriages or have been dumped by their wives/girlfriends. Been there done that.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> I'd be fall on my ass surprised if it did fail; look at all the preschool children driving around in their battery powered cars and preteen kids on their electric skateboards.


I fear you may be correct.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

DaveG said:


> Those of us that have posted somewhat negative comments have not been critical of those who are much older or have a medical condition getting an e-bike. The OP stated that he was a healthy, young-ish person who wanted a high-end racing style e-bike because he didn't want to have to train a lot. Some of us thought that was a bad reason to get an e-bike. That is far different from someone with a condition that would prevent them from riding otherwise using a e-bike


^THIS^

If you're in your young-ish and healthy and need an e-bike to hang with the fast(er) group, guess what... YOU'RE SLOW. You don't need a *$#&ing crutch. You need to train or ride with a different group. 

We have a guy in our club who's pushing 60 and just had both hips replaced. I'd love to see him get an e-bike and be able to do the longer/harder rides like he used to. But the healthy 35-year-old in the club who "just can't find time to train" and expects us to "ease up a little on hills." No. I don't think the e-bike is the solution for him.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

OldZaskar said:


> ^THIS^
> 
> If you're in your young-ish and healthy and need an e-bike to hang with the fast(er) group, guess what... YOU'RE SLOW. You don't need a *$#&ing crutch. You need to train or ride with a different group.
> 
> We have a guy in our club who's pushing 60 and just had both hips replaced. I'd love to see him get an e-bike and be able to do the longer/harder rides like he used to. But the healthy 35-year-old in the club who "just can't find time to train" and expects us to "ease up a little on hills." No. I don't think the e-bike is the solution for him.


I think you're cutting the bi-lateral hip replacement guy way too much slack and failing to comprehend what the OP said.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I'd rather ride with the slightly less fit guy on the ebike than deal with the anti-social elitist BS on your "group" ride.


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## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> ^THIS^
> 
> If you're in your young-ish and healthy and need an e-bike to hang with the fast(er) group, guess what... YOU'RE SLOW. You don't need a *$#&ing crutch. You need to train or ride with a different group.
> 
> We have a guy in our club who's pushing 60 and just had both hips replaced. I'd love to see him get an e-bike and be able to do the longer/harder rides like he used to. But the healthy 35-year-old in the club who "just can't find time to train" and expects us to "ease up a little on hills." No. I don't think the e-bike is the solution for him.


Here's another one with the group ride pressure issue. I feel sorry for you bro...


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Devastazione said:


> Here's another one with the group ride pressure issue. I feel sorry for you bro...


Don't feel sorry for me. My group and I are quite happy... bro.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

The e-bike industry could get some decent PR by having some riders with pedal based power meters posting up some rides with respectable kJ and TSS stats.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Pretty soon no one will be able to tell ebikes from non-ebikes. Also, the MUTs will be overrun (already the case in Seattle).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Bremerradkurier said:


> The e-bike industry could get some decent PR by having some riders with pedal based power meters posting up some rides with respectable kJ and TSS stats.


Or maybe one of the Pro's could win a major stage race or one of the Classic's on one.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Pretty soon no one will be able to tell ebikes from non-ebikes. Also, the MUTs will be overrun (already the case in Seattle).


Whatever it takes to get more Schlubs out there on a bike.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Pretty soon no one will be able to tell ebikes from non-ebikes.


First it was the hard core enthusiasts complaining that ebike will attract too much negative attention, they look ungainly, they cruise too fast .. but now you say they will blend in, indistinguishable. How this is a problem?



> Also, the MUTs will be overrun (already the case in Seattle).


well that is a change from the decades of non-cyclists complaining about spending tax dollars on MUT and bike lanes that go empty all day! Imagine a world where cities have to spend millions to expand cycling path networks, instead of billions to expand freeways for cars, lol. The difference in cost per user is literally such orders of magnitude more efficient (millions vs billions).


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> First it was the hard core enthusiasts complaining that ebike will attract too much negative attention, they look ungainly, they cruise too fast .. but now you say they will blend in, indistinguishable. How this is a problem?
> 
> well that is a change from the decades of non-cyclists complaining about spending tax dollars on MUT and bike lanes that go empty all day! Imagine a world where cities have to spend millions to expand cycling path networks, instead of billions to expand freeways for cars, lol. The difference in cost per user is literally such orders of magnitude more efficient (millions vs billions).


Sounds like the best of all possible worlds.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Pretty soon no one will be able to tell ebikes from non-ebikes. Also, the MUTs will be overrun (already the case in Seattle).


Actually, I think riding around and through tents, garbage, hypodermic needles, and human feces will be the bigger challenge in Seattle.


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