# is serotta quality on the decline?



## tbmichaels (May 12, 2005)

ive seen serottas before and i always admired their bikes. i admire moots and seven as well. i never thought the tube joinery at serotta was too great in comparison but it was still pretty well done. lately ive seen some serottas where the joints looked bloody shoddy and those were top of the line models ottrot..legend. anyone else notice that decline in quality? hard to believe at those prices.

tb


----------



## BarryG (Jul 5, 2004)

How 'bout some pictures to back up your observation? Otherwise, it's easy to be suspicious of your motives (troll?) as this is your very first post to the forum.


----------



## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

*No, it is not.*

nmnmnmnm


----------



## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Yes, it is.

Actually, I've only ever been really close to one Serotta, and while uninspiring, it looked like it was built pretty well.

But this is the internet, and I can agree (or disagree) without providing any substantiation, correct?


----------



## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*I have a Fierte (stock steel frame) from 2002*

I've ridden that bike a lot (6K dry pavement only) and I can say that the welds are seamless. The bike IMHO looks well built and definitely rides well.

BT


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Troll*



tbmichaels said:


> ive seen serottas before and i always admired their bikes. i admire moots and seven as well. i never thought the tube joinery at serotta was too great in comparison but it was still pretty well done. lately ive seen some serottas where the joints looked bloody shoddy and those were top of the line models ottrot..legend. anyone else notice that decline in quality? hard to believe at those prices.
> 
> tb


No substantiation, Bleah

I have two and the quality is awesome.

I suspect that if there were a quality problem, it would be evident from the serotta forum postings as most buyers end up there. So far no mention, so I would assume that this post is as bogus as it first appears.

Len


----------



## tjeanloz (Aug 20, 2004)

Len J said:


> I suspect that if there were a quality problem, it would be evident from the serotta forum postings as most buyers end up there.


Yeah, the forum Moderators (Serotta) probably wouldn't mind if people were saying bad things about quality on their boards.

I have no opinion on Serotta quality, but I find it unlikely that they would stand for such a discussion on their own forum.


----------



## djg (Nov 27, 2001)

*Seems to me they stand for a fair bit.*



tjeanloz said:


> Yeah, the forum Moderators (Serotta) probably wouldn't mind if people were saying bad things about quality on their boards.
> 
> I have no opinion on Serotta quality, but I find it unlikely that they would stand for such a discussion on their own forum.


I've posted on that forum a bit and, although it has many die-hard Serotta fans (no surprise), it's not hard to find posts extolling the virtues of non-Serottas or criticizing something to do with Serotta. I'm not saying that the moderators don't pull anything (or that I have some clear view of everything they do), but it's hardly a sanitized propoganda board. In fact, there are more than a couple of well-known frame builders who don't work for Serotta who post on that board (although I don't think I've seen THOSE folks ever try to attack the board's sponsor).

It seems to me that Serotta has a history of building solid, well-designed, and hardly inexpensive road bikes. It also seems to me that, although they're neatly done, the Serotta TIG bikes have never been at the forefront of the "let's make the exterior surface of the weld look as pretty as possible" movement--maybe I'd say neat, but not fastidious. And maybe the difference has little to do with what most folks are looking for in a bike. I sure haven't seen them all, and maybe one or two got out that were a little less pretty, but I was at a Serotta-selling LBS the other day and the ones they had around all looked real nice to me.

Never had a custom Serotta built myself, but I bought one of their steel frames used and I've liked it a lot.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*I don't know,........*



tjeanloz said:


> Yeah, the forum Moderators (Serotta) probably wouldn't mind if people were saying bad things about quality on their boards.
> 
> I have no opinion on Serotta quality, but I find it unlikely that they would stand for such a discussion on their own forum.


certainly what you say makes sense, however, I've seen criticisms of Serotta on the board that were discussed pretty openly. Just the other day, somone posted about a customer service issue and not only did Serotta allow it, but responded to it and worked with the poster to resolve.

Where Serotta has drawn the line is in allowing mudslinging without backup. 

Just my observation after visiting the Serotta board for a few years.
I've spent some time up at the factory and some time with Ben and Kelly and my takeaway is that they want to produce the best bikes and are also very reality based. They knew that one of their historical inconsistancies was paint so when the built the new factory, a few years ago, the invested heavily in their paint capability. One of the reasons they have been around for 33 years is that they know what they do well and what they need to improve. As someone else pointed out, the way the welds look are not as important to Serotta as how good they are. They believe that two pass welding is not the best thing for the bike.

Buying my first Serotta (a Legend) was twice as much money as I had ever spent on a bike. I did a lot of research, talked to owners of various manufacturers bikes and decided on Serotta. After ordering, I had buyers remorse, but can honestly say that I'm glad I bought a Serotta.....not just because the bike is great, but because of what the co seems to stand for.

Just my .02

Len


----------



## tjeanloz (Aug 20, 2004)

Len J said:


> Where Serotta has drawn the line is in allowing mudslinging without backup.


Isn't that what an opinion is? If they're editing the forum, which they are, it seems like not the right place to get objective (and potentially negative) information.

As for the customer service issue - any time there's a problem they can solve, they probably love having it publicized. Everybody knows that nobody's perfect, but by telling the great story about what they did when they messed up makes them look good.

Again, I'm not saying their quality has suffered, because I have no idea - I'm just saying their message board probably isn't a source of objective information.


----------



## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

tjeanloz said:


> Isn't that what an opinion is? If they're editing the forum, which they are, it seems like not the right place to get objective (and potentially negative) information.
> 
> As for the customer service issue - any time there's a problem they can solve, they probably love having it publicized. Everybody knows that nobody's perfect, but by telling the great story about what they did when they messed up makes them look good.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying their quality has suffered, because I have no idea - I'm just saying their message board probably isn't a source of objective information.


Actually, having lurked there for a long time, I think everybody is right on this one.

In general, critical information is discussed pretty openly. And I'm pretty sure they only edit when people get personal and ugly, not critical.

However, there is a true group think that bouys Serotta along - all the owners love their bikes. So if you're thinking of purchasing one, you're not going to get a balanced opinion. If there are faults with the product and the process, they are not generally discussed.

If someone posted saying that their Serotta disappointed them, and produced factual evidence I think they'd get helpful advice from the riders and the board owners. I've seen this happen. Usually problems with bikes are attributed to "misunderstandings."

If someone posted and said that Serottas were a POS with no back-up, they'd get blasted. The same as they would here.

If someone posted asking for a completely balanced discussion of a Serotta as a product, they'd get a long list of glowing recommendations. Which is exactly what you'd expect from a fan forum.

Interestingly, the most contentious bike discussions over there have been around products other than Serotta. Often, the gloves come off on those (in particular, Pegoretti.)


----------



## daoooo (Apr 11, 2005)

so expensive 
fully equiped top of the line cost 8k....
anyone want to loan me 8k?


----------



## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

terry b said:


> Actually, having lurked there for a long time, I think everybody is right on this one.
> 
> In general, critical information is discussed pretty openly. And I'm pretty sure they only edit when people get personal and ugly, not critical.
> 
> ...


I guess there's a way to test this isn't there? Someone could just post a bogus thread highly critical of Serotta and see if they yank it.

To be honest tho it seems like a lot of high end bikes get knocked for quality. I've heard more than a few complaints about Colnago workmanship for example. Let's face it when a manufacturer charges that much for a bike frame and has this uber-reputation then overly high expectations are bound to arise and be met with disappointment. Of course this begs the question: Are any of these "high-end" frames really worth the extry 2 grand?


----------



## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

*Critical Thread*

Here is a very critical thread http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5050&highlight=ottrott+priced that was mentioned here many months ago. Many of the posters being critical are regulars.

They maintian "manners" much more closely on the board and that is there right.

I suspect if you posted a fake post there would be a couple of responses and than ignored until it went away.


----------



## Thommy (Sep 23, 2003)

*Quick question*

I'm just curious about the titanium used, in this case the 6ALV (?). I like to keep up on a lot of what's going on in our community and love most of what the manufacturers offer us. I've read in the past where the 3.2ALV (?) was superior in strength and that it was extruded thru dies whereas the 6ALV came in sheets and then was rolled over and then welded. Anyone care to set me straight on this and my second question is of course why did Serotta use the 6 over the 3 titanium? No troll just curious.


----------



## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

3/2.5 is the less strong of the two and that is why it can be more easily drawn into tubes. I'd heard that 6/4 had to be rolled and welded, but then I noticed that Moots uses "seamless" Reynolds 6/4 tubing so perhaps that is not an absolute.

http://www.litespeed.com/2005/tech_material.aspx
http://www.moots.com/anatomy-reynolds.php


----------



## tbmichaels (May 12, 2005)

> I've read in the past where the 3.2ALV (?) was superior in strength and that it was extruded thru dies whereas the 6ALV came in sheets and then was rolled over and then welded. Anyone care to set me straight on this and my second question is of course why did Serotta use the 6 over the 3 titanium? No troll just curious.


6 is stronger and isnt as heavy.no one had a good way to form 6 into tubes because it was too difficult to work. so some bike makers rolled sheets of 6 into tubes and joined the seam. now reynolds offers 6-4 tubes.

maybe serotta isnt able to join 6 tubes very well yet?


----------



## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

tbmichaels said:


> 6 is stronger and isnt as heavy.


6/4 has a higher density than 3/2.5.


----------



## Pierre (Jan 29, 2004)

Here are some pictures - looks perfectly fine to me. Feel free to come to my place to examine it yourself, we're having a party tomorrow during the whole night and there will be plenty of beer  (Pasadena CA)

Note: the black spots on the bb picture are dirt, not defects.

Pierre


----------



## tbmichaels (May 12, 2005)

elegant.looks to be of high quality. i didn't know serotta made lugged ti bikes the bikes i saw didnt have lugs.


----------



## Wayne77 (Oct 17, 2003)

tbmichaels said:


> elegant.looks to be of high quality. i didn't know serotta made lugged ti bikes the bikes i saw didnt have lugs.


The CSI is a fine example of a lugged *steel* bike.


----------



## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Whats up with the slot in the downtube cable stop? Just to make it easier to remove cables for cleaning?

At first, with the shoddy workmanship of Serotta I thought it was a crack 

And look, there is a big glob of weld on the back of the headtube!! You got ripped off.


----------



## My Dog Wally (Mar 29, 2003)

> Whats up with the slot in the downtube cable stop? Just to make it easier to remove cables for cleaning?
> 
> At first, with the shoddy workmanship of Serotta I thought it was a crack
> 
> And look, there is a big glob of weld on the back of the headtube!! You got ripped off.


Lab, I can't tell if you're serious or not. If you are, you're either unknowledgeable or a troll.

I'm not a Serotta owner, but I hung around the board for over a year, enjoyed it a lot, learned a ton from the posters, and even found a riding buddy. My sense of how that board is moderated is that Serotta will allow any legitimate discussion, both pro and con Serotta or any other manufacturer. When I decided against buying a Serotta and bought an Independent Fabrication Ti Crown Jewel instead, I posted pictures of it on the site, got a lot of positive comments, and Serotta had no problem with that. What they're not too fond of is troll-like behavior, with posts consisting of insults solely to provoke arguments, as opposed to discussion.

From a marketing perspective, Serotta knows that the single most effective public relations medium they can use is that forum because it's filled with intensely rabid, highly knowledgeable people and soon-to-be bike purchasers with a lot of money who are eager to gather information. Serotta has built a thriving community around their brand. I always wished Indy Fab would have the courage to do the same.


----------



## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

Uh... Perhaps Lab Worker's Post = Sarcasm ?? (there was a smiley face after all)


----------



## Thommy (Sep 23, 2003)

*Ti material question*

thanx fellas. Always good to hear what others think.


----------



## ScienceGuy (May 4, 2002)

I purchased a CSi a few months ago and the craftsmanship is wonderful. Occasionally, I ride with a gentleman who has built quite a few lugged, steel frames in his life. He had nothing but praise for it. Here's some pics of the build.


----------



## JasonF (Apr 5, 2005)

My Dog Wally said:


> I always wished Indy Fab would have the courage to do the same.


I agree, although I own a Serotta Concours, I admire IF bkes and would love to see an open forum for the brand. It would be great if the moderators at www.ifrider.com expanded the site to include an messageboard.


----------



## badroadgoodbike (Oct 28, 2005)

*Jason .. ??*



JasonF said:


> I agree, although I own a Serotta Concours, I admire IF bkes and would love to see an open forum for the brand. It would be great if the moderators at www.ifrider.com expanded the site to include an messageboard.



have been fitted for a new one a week ago at FITWERX up in Vermont, a CX. 
would love to find posted CX bike choices for CampoRecord lusts.
help out ?!


----------



## Fanaticbiking (Sep 14, 2005)

*Well here is my take.*

Sometimes people want to stir things up a bit here and I like that. It is fun to see people get bent out of shape. Guess it shows the passion we have for our personal bikes.

Some bikes inspire people for their seamless weld sand some for the lighter then light carbon weave. I have had the pleaseure/opportunity/understanding wife of owning several different road bikes. Not all at once though.

I have had two Cannondale road frames CAAD 4 & CAAD 5, a trek madone, a 2100, a 2300, and 5200, 2 S-Works E5, now a Serotta Ferte' Ti. 

Wouldn't you agree that any bike that is made by hand and with care may have some inherent qualities that you do not get with a mass produced bike. As for quality, it is in the eye of the evaluater. If you think fantastic shapes and materilas means quality then you would believe something radical is beautiful. If you like simplicity then maybe a steel lugged frame is for you.

I myself like my Serotta the best. No is does not dampen road vibration like carbon, but it is still amazing to ride.

As for quality, it only really matters to me now doesn't it. Your bikes may be higher in quality, but it depends on whom you ask.

I know Ben Serotta strives to make his bikes the best that each can be. I think that way of thinking shows his value of quality.

Anyway here she is in all of her glory.

Full Ti with Record 10, Ksyrium SSC SL, FSA K-Force compace cranks, stem and K-Wing bar, King headset, Thompson post, Specialized alias BG saddle.....Like it matters right!


----------



## Black Frog (Nov 8, 2005)

*What is Ti? (TMI)*

I ride a Serotta Concours, which is 3/2.5 Ti ... welds are excellent, very consistent application of the weld material. They don't need to look smooth like toothpaste coming out of the tube to be high quality ...

This link explains the 6/4 vs. 3/2.5 question in simple terms ...

http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/624.htm here is an excerpt ...

Many people assume that since 6/4 titanium alloy is stronger, all Titanium frames should use it, but it is not that simple. Because 6/4 is stronger than 3/2.5, the mills who draw titanium tubing have a very difficult time working the 6/4 alloy. In addition, strength of these alloys is not the issue that many people think it is. Quite simply, the high quality 3/2.5 bicycle frames on the market simply do not break. Therefore, making a frame from 6/4 alloy simply doesn't make sense (it just costs more money). In addition to the strength of the alloys, the modulus (or measurement of stiffness) is also important. 6/4 and 3/2.5 have effectively the same modulus of elasticity. In simple terms, the two alloys have the same effective stiffness. This in turn means that the ride between frames made out of the two alloys will be the same assuming all other frame specifications are the same.

Here you will find some information on Ti from the Airborne site. They cite 6/4 as being supperior, though notice that they also emphasize the type of weld material as being important as well ... not to mention the welder's skill ...

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/titanium.asp

This link by Vanguard frames promotes 3Al/2.5V for TUBING and 6Al/4V for FITTINGS

http://www.vanguardtitanium.com/design.htm#325

Thelink to this paper is very technical, just scroll to the section that describes tube butting and read about internal v. external butting - do you know which method your favorite builder uses?

http://www.ing.unitn.it/~colombo/telai/approfondimenti_sul_titanio.htm#5



6Al/4V flavor

Titanium alloy Ti-6%Al-4%V is perhaps the most fully evaluated of all titanium alloys and has been used in the widest range of finished parts. Originally developed for the aircraft industry, it has been used as sheet fabrications, brackets and fasteners where lightness and high strength are required.

Its easy forgeability and strength at moderate temperature has led to extensive use as compressor blades and discs in gas-turbine engines and as fan blades in the most recent turbofan engines. An entirely new range of cost and weight saving components for both airframes and engines are now being developed using superplastic forming and diffusion bonding processes, for which this alloy is ideal.

Titanium alloy Ti-6%Al-4%V is available as annealed plate and sheet, as hot worked rod, bar and billet for further working, or as annealed rod and bar for machining. Heat-treatable rod is available for fastener manufacturing and bard-drawn wire can be supplied for spring applications. Pipes can be supplied as extrusions or formed and welded from plate. More complex sections are available, made by extrusion or forming or rolling.

Industries other than the aircraft industry have used for steam-turbine blades and lacing wire, axial and radial-flow gas compressor discs, springs for corrosion resistance, data logging capsules for oil and mineral exploration, etc.

A growing use of Ti-6%Al-4%V is as an implant material. Its excellent biocompatibility and good fatigue strength in body fluids make it ideal for the replacement of hip and knee joints, for bone screws, and for other surgical devices.

Other uses include reciprocating and rotating parts such as compressor valve plates, internal-combustion-engine connecting rods, rocker arms, valve springs and retaining caps, road springs and drive shafts for racing cars, and rotors for centrifuges and ultracentrifuges. Marine uses include armament, sonar equipment, deep-submergence applications, hydrofoils, telephone cable repeater station capsules, etc.

Although one of the earliest titanium alloys is studied so widely, many fresh uses are still being found for this versatile material.


----------

