# Help on Bike Setup



## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

*Help on Bike Setup-Added video*

So I know it's a bit contentious getting opinions on bike setup/position here and difficult to judge from still images, but......

I was wondering if there's anything glaringly "off" in my current setup? see link below with several pics. My back seems to have a compound arch, steep at the base then flattens out.

Setup pics

some stats:
bike: 09 spec roubaix expert size 52, stem is OE spec pro-set 90mm x 12 degree rise set at -8 down over 38mm of spacers.

seat ht =68cm from bb to low pt in saddle

weight distribution:
38% on front
62% on rear

me: 140lbs 5'-4" with 30.25" bike inseam, fairly flexible, but new to road biking for hours on end, recreational rider looking to do rides of 2 hours or more in duration. I come from a mt biking background doing rides of up to 2-3 hours long without any back/shoulder pain.

so last weekend I took this new bike of mine out for the first time and one of the rides was 33 miles long and about 2.5 hours of riding. My lower right back was giving me some grief after only 45 minutes of riding. by the end of the ride it was sore along with my upper right back behind the shoulder. Not sure if the sore back was because of muscles not used to being used or an indication of bad setup; weird it was only sore on my right side. 

In hopes of alleviating the back ache I began reading these forums and various online resources about bike positioning and setup. There seems to be quite a few varied opinions on the subject! I modified the bike to what you see in these attached pics. I moved the stem up 15mm, as shown in the pics, rotated the bars up a bit and adjusted the seat height. I did try flipping the stem but that felt too upright and weird so I put it back to the -8 degree down. 

Seat height is adjusted by using the bottom of the heel just touching the pedal without rocking the hips. 

Unfortunately I've been sick the last several days and finally felt good enough this afternoon to take it for a quick spin. It didn't feel too bad, but felt like I wanted to slide back a bit so I could take more weight off my hands and lower back. 

I know I'll need to put some time and miles in to really see how it feels, but again wanted to know if anyone with a lot more experience might see something that looks "off"

I was thinking before I rode it this afternoon that I might need to shorten the stem to a 75mm, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe just push the seat forward a bit to put more consistent arch in my back or move the seat back to flatten my back out more? I think once I get my seat and handlebars positioned I need to adjust the shifters/brake levers a bit. I guess only time will tell.

If after messing around with it on my own for awhile and don't come to a satisfactory setup i might consider a fitting.

thanks for any input or recommendations you might have. 

oh, really liking this bike, it's a kick in the pants riding this thing so fast on the asphalt compared to my mtb! :cornut:


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## savagemann (Dec 17, 2011)

As long as your saddle is at a comfortable height, the next thing I would do is move your saddle forward a few mm.
Your knee looks to be a bit behind the pedal axle.

Where do you have your clears positioned on the shoe?
Center, fore or aft?


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

cleats are in the middle and placed under the ball of my foot. thanks for the seat suggestion.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Ditto on the seat. It's fine to be a little ahead or behind having your knee in line with the pedal axle when your feet are at 3:00. Your knees are pretty far back IMO. Aside from that the fit looks pretty good. Your arms have a little bend in them which is good, & your back looks fine to me.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

Saddle looks a tad too high to me... and if it were me I'd want a little more bend in my elbows.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I'm seeing what the others are.

Regarding the seat looking high. you might actually point your toes more when you pedal as comported to posing for a picture so you could be okay there in a real riding scenario. Also, when/if you move your saddle forward, that will shorten the leg extension just a little so a move forward might kill two birds with one stone.

Also to be clear.....I'm just suggesting you give the saddle forward a try not that it's a must. there is nothing "wrong" with having your knee a little back from the pedal. It's probably not the best for power but for some people it is what they need to keep pressure off the front of the knees and thats fine. It just means youll be using more arse and hamstrings and less quads. Which works for some. don't do anything drastic but give moving the saddle forward a try but don't feel like you need to force yourself to like it if you like being behind the pedals a little.

your upper body looks really good.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

thanks a lot guys! I'll try this and also moving the saddle forward a bit and see how that feels. I have the OE seat post which has a little less set back than the one i'm using now. so just swapping that out might do it.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Beginning at the beginning, where did you get the bike? If new from an LBS, I would suggest going back and having a standard fitting done. If that's already been done, consider returning, explaining the fit issues you have and see what the advise. This, of course, assumes you have faith in their fitter.

Alternately, since you're new to road riding, you could consider a pro fit. It'll cost some, but think of it as an investment in your (road riding) future. Many here will tell you about the wealth of info/ knowledge on these forums and the web, but (no offense meant) you've already offered that you've tapped some of those resources and from some of your ideas, I think you're basically winging it here. The moral of the story is... sometimes we need assistance - one on one.

All that said, I'll offer my opinions re: your fit and fit issues. I see more 'wrong' with your form on the bike than with the bike fit itself. By that I mean, focus on relaxing your upper body, arms slightly bent/ head lower. This will serve to put more of an arch in your back, taking weight off your lower back. And since you're experiencing discomfort only on your right side, that reinforces my opinion that poor form is a contributing factor. Along the lines of what you've suggested, judging a rider in a static position doesn't always tell the tale, so back to the value of working one on one with a fitter - critiquing your position/ form while riding. 

If you opt to go the do it yourself route, I'd start from scratch, resetting saddle height, tilt, fore/ aft (initially following the KOPS method), then focus on bar reach and drop. The reason I say this is because (assuming you've weighed both f/r correctly), you have a little too much weight rearward and not enough up front, which (opposite of what some have suggested) you're positioned too far rearward. 

If you want to try this last option, I can provide some info/ links that I think will guide you, but fit being more gray than black and white, even following best practices via the internet isn't going to match the results of a a pro fitter working one on one with you. But both are step by step processes.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

thanks for your thorough response PJ.

Basically yes, I'm winging it and using a trial and error approach. 

You're right I need to work on better form and more time in the saddle will help dial in what that should feel like. I rode this setup yesterday afternoon and it felt pretty good and tried replicating it in the pics. glad I took the pics because I can see from them how my upper neck and back look "not quite right".

I bought this used from a coworker who is a pretty "hardcore" roadie. I think I'll show him some of these pics this week and get his input. there's also another guy at work who used to race competitively and see what he thinks.

I'd like to tinker with this for awhile myself as it's a fun geometry problem to sort out. I'd appreciate any links you'd think helpful regarding fit. Personally I feel I need to get a lot of time in on the bike to find out what works and what isn't that way I'd get more out of a personal fit should I explore that option. I also need to develop my non existent core strength!

so for the mean time I think I'll swap out the seat post and try and move my cg forward more, drop the saddle a touch and work on maintaining/finding better form while riding.

thanks again for the advice!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

CF Sierra said:


> I'd like to tinker with this for awhile myself as it's a fun geometry problem to sort out. I'd appreciate any links you'd think helpful regarding fit. Personally I feel I need to get a lot of time in on the bike to find out what works and what isn't that way I'd get more out of a personal fit should I explore that option. I also need to develop my non existent core strength!


Nothing at all wrong with taking ownership of your fit, but IME many fit remedies are counter intuitive, so unless a methodical approach is taken (one small change done... some saddle time to assess, then another...) it's fairly easy to dig a hole with the only way out being another fitting. Not saying this'll happen to you, but I wanted to offer alternatives.

As was stated, there's a wealth of info 'out there' re: fit, but one of the most straightforward links I've found is below. Step by step, with some notations clarifying each and noting potential problems/ causes.
Bike Fit Fitting A Bicycle Seat Adjustment Height Reach Tips by Jim Langley

FWIW, I think your ideas re: adjusting setback slightly rearward and dropping the saddle to compensate are good. I'd recheck for a level saddle as well, but if you find that you're pushing back don't be afraid to tilt the tip _slightly_ up. It may also be necessary to reassess reach and drop at some point in time.

Lastly, _stay relaxed!!_ :thumbsup:


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## savagemann (Dec 17, 2011)

Since you are new to road biking, remember that your flexibility and fit needs will change as you develop core strength & your body gets used to being in a roadie position.
This is coming from a new roadie who was an avid mtber.
My fit needs and comfort changed dramatically over the first couple months.
I would concentrate on proper saddle height, fore aft position and general comfort as far as bar/shifter positioning go.
You'll find after a while that you may want to stretch things out a bit, or make other small changes to stem stack height and such.
If you are thinking of paying for a fit, i would just get a general fitting done now, and save for a pro fitting after your body builds core and flexibility.
At least that's what I have done, so ymmv.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

savagemann said:


> *Since you are new to road biking, remember that your flexibility and fit needs will change as you develop core strength & your body gets used to being in a roadie position.*
> This is coming from a new roadie who was an avid mtber.
> My fit needs and comfort changed dramatically over the first couple months.
> I would concentrate on proper saddle height, fore aft position and general comfort as far as bar/shifter positioning go.
> ...


Much of what you offer is textbook correct. By that I mean, it follows a general pattern of what those new to road riding can expect and how they should deal with it, However, one of the things about fit is how individual it can be, and in the OP's situation, his fit/ form issues aren't consistent with what someone acclimating to road riding can expect. IMO, they're issues that need to be addressed. 

That given, while I agree that (generally speaking and for the reasons you mentioned) it's best to wait on a pro fit, in this case if the OP isn't able to remedy his discomfort fairly quickly, I think it would be wise to consult a pro fitter. Otherwise, the thought of heading out on that next ride might be a painful one... literally.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

well I can report that this mornings ride was really good and much improved in quality compared to last weekend. I retraced my ride from last weekend but omitted the climb into the canyon. I hadn't planned on doing that but was feeling good, it was a beautiful spring day and the forecasted high winds hadn't shown up yet, so I just keep going. I did 34 miles and just over 2 hours.

In summary I didn't experience nearly the discomfort I had last weekend. the changes made to the stem, seat, and most importantly my posture/form on the bike made a huge improvement.

I rode the first 1/3 of the ride with a more arched back and was feeling good, no back ache until about 35minutes into the ride, similar to last weekend my back started aching, like an over used muscle. so I switched my posture up a bit and that made all the difference. I concentrated on keeping my hips rotated forward which allowed my lower back and upper back to be straight, at least that's what it felt like. that also opened up my thigh hip area and allowed a noticeable increase in pedal power, especially in the drops.

So I think for me keeping a flatter back works better than an arched back. next ride I'll try doing that from the beginning. Also I didn't have any shoulder tightness that I experienced last weekend.

A couple other observations, I learned I can really change my position around a lot on this bike. I can move back a lot or forward a lot. A couple times I really hung my but out over the end of the seat and stretched out past the hoods to see what that felt like. I also slid forward onto the nose of the seat and found that helped alleviate some tightness in my left knee which started showing up the latter half hour of the ride. 

I had to slide my seat all the way forward on the rails which put me just behind the pedal axle. Turns out both the FSA and the OE seat posts have the same setback at 25 or 28mm, can't remember which. So in the future I may need to get a seat post with less setback.

I'm really happy with this setup right now and plan to ride it for awhile to get a good baseline. Especially in regards to whether I should put a smaller stem on (75mm). From today's ride that felt like it would be rather nice when just cruising along on the hoods, but may be a bit tight when in the drops and then may not be long enough when I want to stretch out.

I did lower the seat from 68 to 67.5cm. I may lower just a touch to see if that helps with that left knee.

I also made sure I varied my hand positions, and stood up more to keep blood circulating.

Any how I'm glad I posted this here as it really got me thinking more critically about my posture and form, thanks PJ. Really like my bike, just so much fun to ride, and so much more enjoyable when the back & shoulder ache is gone!

Thanks for all the advice!


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

For me, that reach would be pretty long. I can actually tap my elbow with my knee with my hands on the hoods (or in the drops) if I want to. More importantly, I don't need nearly as much tone in my arms to support the little bit of weight I have on my hands.

But, I think people tend to sit a little further forward on the saddle when they're riding than when they've got a shoulder planted on the garage door. So it could be fine. I think you need to put the bike on a trainer and develop a little power to get a good picture of where you are on a bike.

As others have noted, your knee is also pretty far back of your foreward pedal. While I see KOPS as somewhat arbitrary, it's an idea that came about because it's fairly normative. So while I'm not willing to commit to the idea that because someone's knee isn't over their pedal spindle their fit is wrong, you being pretty far back does look a bit odd to me. Sounds like you're already as far forward as your stock seatpost will allow. Some seat posts can be flipped around. I don't see that as a great practice long-term, at least if you also slam the saddle to the back, but if there's some overlap in the saddle adjustment range, it can give you an idea of whether a 0 setback post might be better.

If you try the 75mm stem and you don't like it, think about a new bike.

How do you know your weight distribution?


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## Tucson_2011 (Nov 10, 2011)

*Flexibility*



savagemann said:


> Since you are new to road biking, remember that your flexibility and fit needs will change as you develop core strength & your body gets used to being in a roadie position.
> This is coming from a new roadie who was an avid mtber.
> My fit needs and comfort changed dramatically over the first couple months.
> I would concentrate on proper saddle height, fore aft position and general comfort as far as bar/shifter positioning go.
> ...


For the first few months I started riding again after a decade off, my back hurt too. Oh, the legs, butt, hands and lungs did too, but they worked themselves out leaving me only the back pain. Now back when I was riding mountain bikes all the time, dashing out to do an unexpected century with a friend on this same road bike never hurt my back - what's the deal? The bike is adjusted for me, I have done hundreds of miles on it back in the day. So I tinkered with this and that height and a new seat, et all. The back pain stopped the week I saw some guys that had just unloaded their road bikes from their hitch and they were stretching on the side of the parking lot. Bending over back and forth, some situps, twisting motions, all to limber up!

As soon as I started doing those exercises a few times a day the back pain on a long ride went away, just a little stretching before the ride is all it takes now. Maybe this will help you?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

CF Sierra said:


> well I can report that this mornings ride was really good and much improved in quality compared to last weekend. I retraced my ride from last weekend but omitted the climb into the canyon. I hadn't planned on doing that but was feeling good, it was a beautiful spring day and the forecasted high winds hadn't shown up yet, so I just keep going. I did 34 miles and just over 2 hours.
> 
> In summary I didn't experience nearly the discomfort I had last weekend. the changes made to the stem, seat, and most importantly my posture/form on the bike made a huge improvement.
> 
> ...


I'm glad this thread has you thinking about your fit, posture and form. That's a good thing, and I think you're already reaping some of the benefits by experiencing less discomfort.

On the possibly not so good side, I've highlighted some of your observations/ statements that may (keyword _may_) indicate that the bike is sized too large for you. From what you've offered, it's close enough that you'll get a decent fit, but it's likely that it'll never be optimal.

While I agree that KOPS isn't a measurement to live by, getting a neutral position with the saddle positioned mid-rail does give some indication that a bikes geo suites the riders anatomy. If you're having to slide the saddle to its forward most position and still have your knee behind the pedal spindle, that _may _indicate a sizing problem and _may_ be a contributor to your knee pain, depending on specific location of the pain. 

I know you're trying to tweak fit here, but I suggest going back to square one and setting saddle height, tilt and fore/aft, if possible, initially setting a neutral KOPS position. This will give you a better idea of sizing, a starting point to work from, and also a more accurate read on reach. But saddle adjustments need to come first.

On the topic of flexibility, I think Tucson_2011 brings up a good point re: pre-ride stretches, so I've provided a link below. 

Stretching Before You Ride - Century Cycles Bicycle Stores of Ohio - Serving Cleveland/Akron Area Cyclists


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> How do you know your weight distribution?


I actually calc'd it by hand and then checked with a bathroom scale.

thanks for the feedback. I did mock-up a 75mm stem and that would seemed to be just right for reaching the hoods. seemed almost too close though when in the drops, but may just be my inexperience with how close knees/elbows are supposed to be when you're pedaling.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

Tucson_2011 said:


> For the first few months I started riding again after a decade off, my back hurt too. Oh, the legs, butt, hands and lungs did too, but they worked themselves out leaving me only the back pain. Now back when I was riding mountain bikes all the time, dashing out to do an unexpected century with a friend on this same road bike never hurt my back - what's the deal? The bike is adjusted for me, I have done hundreds of miles on it back in the day. So I tinkered with this and that height and a new seat, et all. The back pain stopped the week I saw some guys that had just unloaded their road bikes from their hitch and they were stretching on the side of the parking lot. Bending over back and forth, some situps, twisting motions, all to limber up!
> 
> As soon as I started doing those exercises a few times a day the back pain on a long ride went away, just a little stretching before the ride is all it takes now. Maybe this will help you?


your definitely right on the money about stretching and I'll increase what I already do along with doing some core exercises. I actually stretched mid ride today.thanks for the feedback!


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

CF Sierra said:


> I actually calc'd it by hand and then checked with a bathroom scale.
> 
> thanks for the feedback. I did mock-up a 75mm stem and that would seemed to be just right for reaching the hoods. seemed almost too close though when in the drops, but may just be my inexperience with how close knees/elbows are supposed to be when you're pedaling.


I'm impressed. I'm not confident I'd be able to figure out the position of my center of mass over my bike well enough to do that. At least, without some simplifying assumptions that would defeat the purpose of the exercise...

Here's a pic borrowed from some guy's blog entry about his bike fitting. The flares are because he's doing a bike fitting with a bunch of electronic toys - they facilitate computer modeling or something.










His hands are still well forward of his head, but look at his upper arms - he's not actually reaching that far. I wouldn't find his particular riding position at the moment the picture was taken very comfortable, I don't like that much bend in my elbow unless I'm doing a big effort and really not supporting any weight on my arms. I was trying to re-find it when I found this picture, but I remember the manual that came with my LeMond having a picture showing the rider's knees and elbows having a little overlap. It may or may not be right for you - this stuff is highly individual, and I think it wouldn't work for a person with a long torso relative to his femurs - but give yourself permission to have a little overlap there and you may find your way to a better position.

Here's an article I like about fitting.

How to Fit a Bicycle

I'd skip the part on cranks. They're proving incredibly difficult to find a good way to size; it seems that it's just not that important. I like the rest a lot. sheldonbrown.com is another good place to look for tips on correcting things that hurt.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> I'm glad this thread has you thinking about your fit, posture and form. That's a good thing, and I think you're already reaping some of the benefits by experiencing less discomfort.
> 
> On the possibly not so good side, I've highlighted some of your observations/ statements that may (keyword _may_) indicate that the bike is sized too large for you. From what you've offered, it's close enough that you'll get a decent fit, but it's likely that it'll never be optimal.
> 
> ...


I'm not too concerned with it being too big now, was a little last weekend, but all is much better after todays ride. My knees are behind the pedal also on my stumpjumper with it's seat all the way forward as well; that bike was bought new, size small, and LBS said it fit great. Don't have any knee pain problems with it now.  though when I first got it i was having some knee issues but found my seat was too low and found a happy place for my knees. I figure I need to do that with this seat as well.

thanks for the stretching link. I recently started stretching more but will be more diligent about it now.  and thanks for all the helpful suggestions!


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'm impressed. I'm not confident I'd be able to figure out the position of my center of mass over my bike well enough to do that. At least, without some simplifying assumptions that would defeat the purpose of the exercise...
> 
> Here's a pic borrowed from some guy's blog entry about his bike fitting. The flares are because he's doing a bike fitting with a bunch of electronic toys - they facilitate computer modeling or something.
> 
> ...


thanks for digging that pic up. it's helpful to have a visual. good info and advice on the elbow/knee overlap too. I'll take a look at your fitting link. lots to mull over and need to do a lot of riding.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

CF Sierra said:


> I'm not too concerned with it being too big now, was a little last weekend, but all is much better after todays ride. My knees are behind the pedal also on my stumpjumper with it's seat all the way forward as well; that bike was bought new, size small, and LBS said it fit great. Don't have any knee pain problems with it now. though when I first got it i was having some knee issues but found my seat was too low and found a happy place for my knees. I figure I need to do that with this seat as well.
> 
> thanks for the stretching link. I recently started stretching more but will be more diligent about it now.  and thanks for all the helpful suggestions!


The knee pain (on your road bike) might be attributed to saddle height, but depending on exactly where the pain is, there could be a number of other causes. 

Not that you don't already have enough to digest here, but IMO the link below has a wealth of info you may find useful, both now and in the future.
CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS -


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> The knee pain (on your road bike) might be attributed to saddle height, but depending on exactly where the pain is, there could be a number of other causes.
> 
> Not that you don't already have enough to digest here, but IMO the link below has a wealth of info you may find useful, both now and in the future.
> CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS -


thanks for the link, hadn't come across that one yet. I just checked my seat height and lowered it just a bit as it was a little too high still. will try that next ride.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

so I made a few adjustments:

changed stem to 75mm 12 degree rise and installed -8 down (specialized pro set)
also moved the seat forward to within 10mm of pedal axle, seat is at 5mm index setting, almost all forward

from the video looks like I need to drop the seat just a bit as it looks like my hips are rocking. are you guys seeing that too?

this position feels pretty good. though i feel a bit crunched up in the drops, so will ride this awhile and see what else may need tweaking
here's a couple video clips.

Hoods

Drops


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

CF Sierra said:


> so I made a few adjustments:
> 
> changed stem to 75mm 12 degree rise and installed -8 down (specialized pro set)
> also moved the seat forward to within 10mm of pedal axle, seat is at 5mm index setting, almost all forward
> ...


Take my input with a grain of salt because I'm basing it on two vids at fixed angles. Far different than critiquing from different viewpoints.

Your hips are rocking, but saddle height alone may not be the reason. I think you're positioned too far rearward on the bike and drop is set too low for you. The 75mm stem shortened reach, but didn't help with f/r weight distribution. Also, IMO, your arms aren't sufficiently bent - I suspect that's part form, part bar placement.

If it were me setting this bike up, given what you have to work with, I'd go with a no setback post and longer stem, raising the bars about 1cm. This would move your weight forward (hopefully at KOPS, initially) and get more of a bend in your arms. There will be some elbow/ knee overlap, but that's as it should be. 

From there, I'd do some rides, reassess fit and proceed accordingly. Tweaks if it felt better, a 'start over' if it didn't.

Just curious... how are you measuring KOPS?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Saddle height doesn't necessarily look that wrong to me. At the bottom of the pedal stroke, you've got a relatively appropriate amount of bend in your knee. In the first clip, you look like your cadence is about 76 rpm. Which is on the low side. Often when people push too high a gear, their hips rock. So I don't know if you can get a little better stability if you push a lighter gear. It's actually faster, but the big selling point for me is that it doesn't hurt me. 

Here are a couple experiments for you to try. No guarantee, but they may give you some insight.

First one is part of how I determine saddle position. While you're riding fast enough to be stable, put your pedals at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock, take all the weight off the hands (but still hold the bars, just no weight) and lift your butt off the saddle. In order to stay over the pedals at 9 and 3 and keep your weight off your hands, you'll be forced to center yourself between your pedals. Sit back down on the saddle. If you find yourself out on the nose of the saddle, it's definitely too far back. If you find you're back on the tail a little, it's a little more of an ambiguous result. Some people like to be slightly forward of what would be a perfectly balanced static position - it facilitates a balanced position when they're developing some power. Anyway, I think it's a great way to rough in a saddle fore/aft position. You still have to tweak based on the ride.

Second one is easier. Try putting your hands on some different parts of the bar while you're riding at your normal cadence and power output. I find I actually ride a lot of my bikes on the ramps or the corners of the handlebar. The one I ride on the corners, I know to be too big for me. (D'oh!) With the ones on the ramps, it was more that I felt like I ran out of real estate for where I like to put my hands when I'm doing a bigger effort, in or out of the saddle. This should give you a little insight as to where your hands should be.

I'm sorry I couldn't see your feet in the drops position video. They looked quite flexed at the top of the stroke. Some riders just have more movement in their ankles than others when they ride, but your bike shouldn't obligate you to do anything weird. How the drops should be set up depends a lot on how you use them. On my bikes, they're not a problem for me to get to in terms of range of motion, but I end up with too much weight on my hands unless I'm either balanced a little further back on the bike with my butt off the saddle, like in a descent, or pushing out a lot (for me, anyway) of watts. Other riders like them just as a change, or as a primary position. The handlebars are a tool, so really whatever is most useful to you is the right answer. Anyway, I'm disinclined to worry about that until you've got your primary riding position sorted out. (Unless your drops are your primary position, and then the bars need to be quite a lot higher.) I have a favorite handlebar that's now on two of my bikes and has a more conservative drop because with the bend on a lot of cheap handlebars, the drop was always too deep for me when I had the hoods in a good place. Some people like deep drops, though, and they're also right.


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

thanks for the advice and suggestions PJ & Andrw! In retrospect where I shot the video probably wasn't the best choice, it was on a 5% grade which may have been why my hips look like that. Could also be my poor core strength.

@ Andrw: your method of setting the seat is a good one and I think that's how I came up with the .5mm setting last week. I tried your suggestion on yesterday's ride and felt most balanced somewhere around that position. I did try scooting forward towards the nose trying to get a feel of what a 0 offset post might feel like. That seemed to put more weight on my arms than I liked. A coworker, ex road racer, has a 0 offset post he said I could borrow so may try that next week.

@PJ: re kops: using torpedo level on the crank arm and plumb bob from bottom of the knee cap. though I rechecked yesterday and came up with 20-30mm behind pedal axle. I feel pretty comfortable with this but may try the 0 offset post and the 90mm stem combo next week just as a comparison.

thanks again for your help guys!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

CF Sierra said:


> thanks for the advice and suggestions PJ & Andrw! In retrospect where I shot the video probably wasn't the best choice, it was on a 5% grade which may have been why my hips look like that. Could also be my poor core strength.
> 
> @ Andrw: your method of setting the seat is a good one and I think that's how I came up with the .5mm setting last week. I tried your suggestion on yesterday's ride and felt most balanced somewhere around that position. I did try scooting forward towards the nose trying to get a feel of what a 0 offset post might feel like. That seemed to put more weight on my arms than I liked. A coworker, ex road racer, has a 0 offset post he said I could borrow so may try that next week.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify measuring KOPS, with bike level, as long as you had your 'measuring pedal' forward (at the 9 position) and ran the weighted string from the bottom of kneecap through the inner side of the crankarm (referencing its relation to the pedal spindle), your doing it correctly. 

That said, I think you should come a lot closer than a 10-20mm estimate - at least IME, so maybe recruit a helper. 

Also, FWIW I don't think using Andrew's method is going to do much more than give you a general sense of where you feel balanced on the bike, f/r. As you seat yourself, there's an excellent chance that you'll not 'land' straight down from the position you used to assess balance. 

I think the same holds true for the test you did moving forward to assess how a no setback post would feel. I agree that moving 'too far forward' will likely cause too much weight on your arms/ hands, so to clarify, I suggested that post with the thoughts in mind that 1) you've maxed out your forward position with the current post and 2) it would move you closer to KOPS, but likely still slightly behind. So, not so radical a change.

I think it would be worthwhile to try your co-workers post. It'll cost nothing more than some time/ effort to reposition your saddle height, fore/ aft and tilt. I also agree on trying that longer stem, and (if possible) consider raising the bars about 1cm.

Lastly, I agree that your cadence in those vids could be higher. It's possible that it could contribute to the rocking hips, but could also explain your knee pain mentioned in a previous post. Might be worth investing in a computer with the cadence function.


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## xpc316e (Mar 12, 2012)

I apologise for not being able to insert a link, but I do not have sufficient posts. If I were you I'd Google 'Steve Hogg bike fitting' and then read some of this guy's wisdom. He writes a lot of common sense about many of the myths of bike fitting, and for me he succeeds in puncturing most of them. Why should a riding position work when your knee is over a pedal axle, and not work when it isn't? We are all different, so it needs someone to think outside the box when it comes to bike fit.

He also deals with the assymmetry from which most of us suffer when put on a symmetrical device such as a bike. This may well be a factor in your case.

Good luck with getting comfortable on your machine.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

xpc316e said:


> I apologise for not being able to insert a link, but I do not have sufficient posts. If I were you I'd Google 'Steve Hogg bike fitting' and then read some of this guy's wisdom. He writes a lot of common sense about many of the myths of bike fitting, and for me he succeeds in puncturing most of them. Why should a riding position work when your knee is over a pedal axle, and not work when it isn't? We are all different, so it needs someone to think outside the box when it comes to bike fit.
> 
> He also deals with the assymmetry from which most of us suffer when put on a symmetrical device such as a bike. This may well be a factor in your case.
> 
> Good luck with getting comfortable on your machine.


Nothing against Hogg because IMO he offers a great deal of insight re: issues of bike fit, but even he acknowledges...
QUOTE:
_Real world matters. Theories are good for arguing over coffee but any change that works for your benefit and is proven over time in the type of riding that you do, is a good one for you, no matter what theory or received wisdom about bike position that it may contradict. Individuals are just that, and too much cycling ‘lore’ regarding position assumes that we all came out of the same factory as mass produced items. Not so._ END QUOTE
Source:
HOW TO AVOID BIKE FIT HELL » Bike Fit » Featured » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website

A lot of words that (IMO) say "fit is more gray than black and white". Or, "one individuals needs/ remedies may contradict anothers, due to a number of factors". 

Re: KOPS, no one has offered that it's a measurement to live by, but it is a useful baseline that tells some things about where a rider 'fits' on a given geometry and how f/r weight distribution is affected - IME one of the most important aspects to proper bike fit. 

In the OP's case, I'm fairly certain that the geo isn't his optimal, so IMO attaining the best fit possible will entail getting a baseline established for f/r weight distribution, *not* to attain KOPS _no matter what_. It may be that the best compromise will be for him to get his knee slightly behind KOPS, but more forward than it is now. As was previously mentioned, weight is probably biased too far rearward.

On the general topic of KOPS; whether one believes in it or not, it becomes relatively moot out on the road, because we're frequently changing position depending on terrain/ conditions. Climbing might mean out of the saddle efforts, intervals might mean a more forward position, butt positioned slightly above the saddle - depends on the rider, their style and their preferences. As an example, I tend to slide back in the saddle when climbing, but stay seated. 

But that doesn't mean that KOPS (or more accurately, pedal position relative to KOPS) doesn't matter. There are some well established/ documented anatomical reasons for knowing this parameter. Just as some riders can't tolerate a lot of saddle to bar drop, a too far rearward saddle might mean a rider stretches their IT band when at the forward most pedal stroke. With repetitive use, this can lead to an overuse injury. 

Sometimes, thinking out of the box means that a fitter is open to an option that they don't normally subscribe to, because they see a benefit in a certain situation for a certain type of cyclist.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Cheers to all contributions to this thread ... very helpful ...

FWIW ... I found out checking household brand sites to determine sizing and the Canyon road bike sizing calculator also helps ... 

eg: for one of their specific frame ...
Canyon | Roadbikes | Roadlite 7.0
click on 'calculate frame size', then 'adjust to your ...'

You need to input your gender, weight, height, inseam/torso/arm length & shoulder width and it should give you a frame size and from them you should be able to extract data like effective top tube length and seat tube length ... etc

I found out that a road bike frame, for me at least, has an ETT length 1 and 1/2" shorter than my MTB ...


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

xpc316e said:


> I apologise for not being able to insert a link, but I do not have sufficient posts. If I were you I'd Google 'Steve Hogg bike fitting' and then read some of this guy's wisdom. He writes a lot of common sense about many of the myths of bike fitting, and for me he succeeds in puncturing most of them. Why should a riding position work when your knee is over a pedal axle, and not work when it isn't? We are all different, so it needs someone to think outside the box when it comes to bike fit.
> 
> He also deals with the assymmetry from which most of us suffer when put on a symmetrical device such as a bike. This may well be a factor in your case.
> 
> Good luck with getting comfortable on your machine.


thanks for the link. In educating myself about road bike positioning and fit I did come across his site.

As a short guy with long legs/short torso relationship a lot of off the shelf things don't fit right, but as with life you learn to adapt or figure a way to make things fit.

while this bike may not be the ideal in terms of top tube length, I seem to fit within reason and within or darn close to it's designed rider fit. 

as far as weight distribution goes, with my current seat position at the 5mm index mark, i.e. almost all the way forward, I have 42% on the front and 58% on the rear, which from what I've read about road bike design is within the design parameters of a 45/55 to 40/60 preference. As an engineer it helps me know what the bike designer is striving for in their design. Knowing that I can then make good decisions on what I can modify geometry wise on the bike and still stay within the intended design. 

More importantly though the bike feels like a good fit, not too long and doesn't feel odd when riding it. I think I'm real close to a comfortable and desirable fit right now. 

I personally am not married to the idea of being at kops, but will try that position just to see what it feels like. If it's better then good, if not, then I'll go back to what I have now which feels pretty good.

glad this has been informative to some as that's partly why I posted as I figured someone would benefit from the discussion. As I've discovered there seems to be a lot of differing opinions out there, overwhelming really. But in the end it really just takes trying different things and seeing what works. 

Here's a few other links in addition to those already mentioned above I've come across in my research of bike design/fit/position etc.

bike design:
Bicycle Frame Design, Part 1 | Terry Peloton. (particularly good tutorial on design)
https://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/dirtbag-bikes/geometry-project.html
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/Bicycle_Geometry/BG101_v801.pdf (really good as well)
BikeSize.Info Bike Sizing Specialists

some fitting/position links:
Professional Bike Fitting at BikeDynamics Ltd.
Dave Moulton's Blog - Dave Moulton's Bike Blog - Leisure riding*position
Adjusting the bicycle saddle | The Bicycle Shopping Guide


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## CF Sierra (Mar 3, 2012)

just wanted to follow-up with this thread. I put a zero offset seat post on along with my 75mm stem (bars about level with seat) and all is good. Just did a 42 mile 3 hr plus ride with 8 miles of 2800' of climbing and no sore back or knees at all! my knees are 10-15mm behind peddle axle.

So what I've learned over the past few weeks is riding posture is pretty important along with overall bike fit. Since I've been doing more climbing lately, I've figured out it helps to slide forward on the seat to give the thighs a break, stand up once and awhile, and to keep my shoulders relaxed. I've had a hard time keeping my shoulders relaxed as they want to creep up. I think they do that as that's where they normally are when riding a mountain bike/mx bike. So I have to remind myself at times to just let them drop and be relaxed.

I also move my hands around from the ramps, hoods. drops etc. Very happy with the bike and how things are going. Anyways just a quick follow-up for anyone who might benefit from my experience.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

CF Sierra said:


> just wanted to follow-up with this thread. I put a zero offset seat post on along with my 75mm stem (bars about level with seat) and all is good. Just did a 42 mile 3 hr plus ride with 8 miles of 2800' of climbing and no sore back or knees at all! my knees are 10-15mm behind peddle axle.
> 
> So what I've learned over the past few weeks is riding posture is pretty important along with overall bike fit. Since I've been doing more climbing lately, I've figured out it helps to slide forward on the seat to give the thighs a break, stand up once and awhile, and to keep my shoulders relaxed. I've had a hard time keeping my shoulders relaxed as they want to creep up. I think they do that as that's where they normally are when riding a mountain bike/mx bike. So I have to remind myself at times to just let them drop and be relaxed.
> 
> I also move my hands around from the ramps, hoods. drops etc. Very happy with the bike and how things are going. Anyways just a quick follow-up for anyone who might benefit from my experience.


Interesting end result. Given that the zero setback post allowed you to move forward ~ 1cm and considering your initial setup/ position on your bike (with the 90mm stem), I'm surprised that a shorter stem/ less reach worked out for you. OTOH, I'm not surprised that the new post and raising the bars 'some' had a positive effect. Bottom line, fit being about comfort/ efficiency, I wouldn't fight success! 

Completely agree on the importance of posture. A fitter can do their job positioning a rider on a bike, _promoting_ good form, but they can't make the rider _practice_ good form. IMO/E resistance training (which is what cycling essentially is) does tend to tighten us up, and FWIW, even after decades of road riding, I sometimes have to remind myself to relax. 

Glad things worked out for you. And as you say, someone else may learn from your experiences - even if it's that every person's fit requirements/ preferences differ.


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