# Help - F8 vs Tarmac 2015



## Supha (Jun 5, 2014)

So I have been riding a Dogma 65.1 for the last 18 months and wrote it off in a crash 3 weeks ago now (sad, dark day). I'm fully insured and have had my claim approved so am now free to go shopping.

I'm seriously torn between what I consider the best replacement options in the market at the moment: 
1. Dogma F8; and 
2. Specialized Tarmac 2015.

At the risk of turning this into a fan boy battle I'm really keen to hear from people who ride and/or sell both as to their relative merits.

I'm a slight rider that is pretty aggressive, particularly on short climbs up to 5min.

This is how I see the pro cons in my head at the moment:

*Tarmac 2015*
- Super compelling product testing and quality (own wind-tunnel etc);
- Genuine GC rider's bike with all round performance attributes, particularly for climbing;
- Price. I can get a set of quality wheels for the difference between this and the F8;
- I have a great relationship with the local dealer (also my primary LBS) which would only be stronger if I purchased but potentially eroded if not. This relationship means I'll get a customised deal on the build.
- Comes with Ceramic BB as standard
- Cons - I'm not instantly taken by the form factor, the straight lines and absence of aero flaring are turn-offs. It just doesn't excite me in the same way as the F8. I don't think I'm a Venge rider so am not considering that as an option.

*Dogma F8*
- Seriously love the new design and am very excited by it. Am yet to see it in person as my local dealer is awaiting shipment.
- Loved the ride and feel of my 65.1 and from all reviews this is a material improvement
- Cons: Price. Price! I am not as convinced by the Pinarello development story, seems more marketing than substance but the product is unquestionably fantastic. Ceramic bearings are an additional upgrade expense. Long wait for MyWay frames which, if I'm spending that much I would want.
- I'm a bit confused if this is a genuine aero bike or half way there - trying to be all things.

Anyway, keen to get some thoughts. A good problem to have at least.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

you will find this thread about the Tarmac 2015 of interest:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/2015-tarmac-323161.html

There isn't a huge difference between the SL4 and the 2015 unless you're sizing is a big like 60cm, and you like disc brakes. The carbon of the 2015 is exactly the same as that of the SL4 Sworks.

as for ceramic bb,.. blah! i wouldn't even factor in my consideration. But the F8 has a thread bb, which I would definitely prefer over any pressfit bb


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Style or substance?

Do you need the cachet of the Pinarello or prefer the performance of the Tarmac.

Both are undeniably good bikes but if you are going to just buy the best of the two it would have to be the Tarmac.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ewitz said:


> Style or substance?
> 
> Do you need the cachet of the Pinarello or prefer the performance of the Tarmac.
> 
> Both are undeniably good bikes but if you are going to just buy the best of the two it would have to be the Tarmac.


The Tarmac's real performance gain is in the large 60+cm sizes. Apparently the SL4 and SL3 in large sizes corner like a flexy semi trailer. Other than improvement in big sizes, and disc, it appears to be a bit of a rehased SL4.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Pinarello F8? Meh...

I owned a 2012 Dogma2, which I bought used with 1000 miles on it, and I sold it after two months. I replaced it with a Cannondale SuperSix Evo HiMod frame/fork,stem/seatpost, which I bought new for $2200. I'm much happier with the SuperSix.


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## mannymerc (Nov 19, 2013)

the f8 is great, I just took one one for a 50 miles ride, is rare and you dont see a lot of pinarellos, but performance for performance, the tarmac does better, I have a SW SL4 and in my size I have to pay really close attention to notice the difference between the SL4 and the 2015 SW. anyway, you prob. one the latest if you are buying tho, so the 2015 SW, gets my vote.


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## Supha (Jun 5, 2014)

Thanks for the comments, this is all really helpful stuff and confirms what my head has been trying to convince my heart of.

No one can deny that any decision to run with a Pinarello comes down in part to a style / aesthetics factor. I guess what I'm unsure about with this new generation is if there really is much differentiating in substance given Pinarello's higher grade carbon etc. 

Being excited by what I ride is a big factor for me, I don't think that's unreasonable - I really want to be exited by the Tarmac and I'm slowly getting the butterflys but it might just take some more time. It's a bit of a mindset shift from riding a curvy flared bike to straight lines and rounded tubes.

I really appreciate your comments @mannymerc as you've obviously independently ridden both. I think I should get some benefit from the 2015 SW because I ride a c.52cm frame.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Supha said:


> I really appreciate your comments @mannymerc as you've obviously independently ridden both. I think I should get some benefit from the 2015 SW because I ride a c.52cm frame.


I also ride a 52, or would. One thing to note is the changes they've made to the smaller frames may not be in line with what you want. They claim that smaller riders put out less power and therefore don't need as stiff of a rear triangle. So the rear of the new Tarmac is less stiff than on the SL4 on purpose. If you're a fairly high power rider or climber this could be taken as a bad thing. I like the rear triangle of my bikes to be very stiff because I'm a climber. It's a big factor for me picking the BMC SLR01 as my next bike. Pinarello stiffened the rear triangle on the F8 a fair amount more than on the 65.1. 

So the kind of rider you are might also be a factor here. If you're a flatlander you may never feel a difference between the two, maybe you wouldn't climbing either. That's something you'd have to test out. I was quite surprised by my test rides of the BMC.

Normally I'd say pick whichever one has the better geometry for you, but they're both long and low bikes with similar setups so that's really a non factor. 

Some people prefer a more exclusive bike made in Italy. Some don't care to have a common bike made in Asia. You'll find S-Works bikes everywhere, they hold pretty much zero prestige factor. A Dogma or C-60 etc. though is a whole different social experience. I don't care about the social side of cycling at all and give zero ****s about what anyone else thinks or says. I pick bikes based purely on geometry and performance, then I just pick a color I can live with, usually quite basic. Then again maybe you're part of a Specialized crew of people and you want to fit in. These sort of things should be factored in for some.

Seeing how you're looking at basic GC geometry bikes, why not broaden your field? Why not look at Willier and Colnago? Why not any other really nice brands? Trust me, there's nothing special about a Tarmac or Dogma that will make you a better rider over any other high end GC style bikes.


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## Supha (Jun 5, 2014)

Cool thanks for that perspective.

The only aversion I have to riding a BMC or Colnago is that the local dealer is a pr**k of the highest order. I'd rather not give him money and still wipe the floor before his riders get to the top of climbs... anyway. Williers are harder to come by, the guys who sell them near me don't have the knowledge or expertise to fit or service me to the level I would expect.

I do ride pretty much exclusively with s-works riders but that's not influencing my decision really (other than if it gets me to the top of climbs quicker than them obviously). I do throw a bit of power for a smaller rider on short climbs up to 1km and 10%+ (I top a few of the power climbs in my area) so bottom bracket and rear triangle strength is v. important for me.

I'm going to retest my fit fully before this build to make sure its dialled in 100% and I choose the right geometry. I wasn't fully happy with the fit I had on my 65.1 and suspect the frame was 1 size too big (53 when I should be 51.5)

The Specialized dealer will fit me and has offered to do a no-strings-attached build of a 2015 SW for me to test so I can put it through its paces and test the stiffness through the rear compared to what I was used to with the 65.1 (as a baseline anyway). It's unlikely that the local Pinarello dealer will give me an F8 test though which is a bit disappointing - buying a frame "blind" isn't ideal.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I also ride a 51.5, sounds like we're quite similar. If I were to get a Tarmac, I'd get the SL4 for the stiffer rear triangle. I don't need the added vertical compliance of the new seatpost collar because I'm quite lightweight at 150lbs. What would push me over the edge would be the cost. I'm not cheap at all but I'm frugal and the SL4 would really save me some cash.

I agree about not buying a frame blind. If you don't have access to an F8 and the dealer is a real prick I guess that bike was never a contender to begin with. Seems to me like you're just trying to talk yourself into buying a new Tarmac. Just beware of buyer's remorse, that's one thing you really don't want.


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## Supha (Jun 5, 2014)

Good points thanks!

We do sound like similar riders - I weigh about 150lb too.

The Pinarello guys are OK here (just Colnago and BMC I wouldn't touch), it's just that they don't test by the sounds. I'll try and twist their arm though.

When I had the crash it was pretty much fait accompli that I would just go with an F8 - I was sold, S-works as you say had zero prestige for me. It's more me doing a double-take on performance and what I want in a bike (also getting a good sales pitch) and wondering if I would get more out of the Tarmac.

The SW test ride should be interesting at least. I'm not in any hurry to buy so will weigh it up.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Oh, if it's available near you, check out the Oltre XR2 and the Infinito CV. The Oltre is more of the bike you'd be looking for but that Infinito is worth a test ride. One of these days I'll have a Bianchi, just not for a few years probably.

The SL4 and the new Tarmac are fine bikes. Just saying that there's a whole lot of fine bikes out there available to check out. If you have the cash for an F8 you have the cash for just about anything. I'd consider companies like Alchemy too, they can tune things for you.

Like you said, something you'd be excited about.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

Maybe the better alternative: The new Tarmac in McLaren form. It was kind of lost in the shuffle, but when the new one was unveiled, they said there would be a McLaren version round about July. There is a possibility its vaporware... there weren't but a couple SL4 maclaren tarmacs made after it appeared there would be a mclaren version of that, and previous few venges at that, maybe a couple hundred. But it sounds like it could happen. Maybe you could get tingley about that.

My take between the two manufacturers is that Pinarello is selling frames that cost them $800 to design, market and build for $5,700 and specialized is selling frames that cost $1,400 to design and build for a couple thousand less.
They are both at the pinnacle of marketing and both have figured out how to sell for a premium but Specialized is also at the pinnacle of R&D, too.
I don't know who does the main R&D for Pinarello, but we know who does it for spesh....and McLaren surely trumps Jaguar for the "add-on extra engineering" role.
Pinarello fibs constantly about weight, the last dogmas were porky. The wavey fork never made any sense. Those two things are red flags.
The F8 is gorgeous, but the front isn't as stiff as the tarmacs and I just can't get past the notion that Pinarello is a triumph of aesthetics and marketing over function and value... Specialized can be accused of that a bit too, but they do dump real and visible money on R&D and still sell their best frames at what, 60 percent of Pinarello?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> Maybe the better alternative: The new Tarmac in McLaren form. It was kind of lost in the shuffle, but when the new one was unveiled, they said there would be a McLaren version round about July. There is a possibility its vaporware... there weren't but a couple SL4 maclaren tarmacs made after it appeared there would be a mclaren version of that, and previous few venges at that, maybe a couple hundred. But it sounds like it could happen. Maybe you could get tingley about that.
> 
> My take between the two manufacturers is that Pinarello is selling frames that cost them $800 to design, market and build for $5,700 and specialized is selling frames that cost $1,400 to design and build for a couple thousand less.
> They are both at the pinnacle of marketing and both have figured out how to sell for a premium but Specialized is also at the pinnacle of R&D, too.
> ...


Are there any numbers regarding the specific cost of R&D for Spesh versus Pina?
Are there any numbers regarding the stiffness properties of the 2015 Tarmac versus F8?

The few reviews I've seen on the Tarmac 2015 and F8... frankly scream homerism to me. They all say the politically safe words such as "faster, better, stiffer". Unless the SL4 and the 65.1 were flexy noodle to begin with,.. unless the SL4 and the F8 had gramps-bike geometry to begin with... I'm not totally sold on these review. Hell, the carbon fiber of the Tarmac 2015 is the same as that of the SL4 Sworks. 

Regarding bike handling, newer doesn't not always mean better. And all out stiffness does not always mean more responsive feedback. And like I said, the SL4 and 65.1 weren't noodle to begin with. But the reviewers make it sound like the new Tarmac and F8 are suddenly razors while their older cousins were brick blocks (well Specialized did hint that the bigger sized >60cm Tarmac were sort of like bricks around corners, and that the 2015 Tarmac would solve this for the big sizes). 

Not sure if anyone is into MotoGP here. But they would remember Ducati did once try a carbon fiber rear swingarm back in 2009, and that worked for exactly 1 rider (Stoner). For the rest of the other Ducati riders, they didn't feel the same feedback. In 2012, Ducati switched back to aluminum. Point here is that handling is a very individualized thing, and stiffer doesn't always mean better (unless of course the frame was a noodle to begin with).

To be honest I don't buy the whole Mclaren marketing thing. For all we know, it could be just the McLaren boys having fun on the computer with some simulation on airflow, and call it R&D. I cannot imagine a company like Mclaren having enough resources to spread around to a bicycle company aside from the mininum effort needed to get the mutual marketing departments of each company (especially Specialized) to salivate.

I would be much more excited if a top motorcycle company like Ducati or Honda or Yamaha would get involved with a bicycle company in some R&D effort, even if it's a small effort. Lots more common between 2 wheels than 4 wheels.

Another thing to consider is potentially this factor. If a bicycle has a geometry and stiffness to allow carving the corners demons, or to allow blinding out of saddle sprinting to the line... then does such bicycle also allow the rider to put down the power at say 100% threshold over 20 - 30 min at the end of a long ride? If time spent in the climb far outweighs time spent in a descent, then climbing geometry has to take precedence over descending geometry. Only way to know this balance is through feedback from the racers themselves, not through some whizbang computer simulation. None of the reviews seem to delve into this detail, but I reckon that's because they don't have the time to gather data. But they all love to say "climb like no other, descend like bat out of hell". Very generic and protocol stuff if you ask me.

But ultimately, riding a bicycle, like a motorcycle, probably involves 95% human endeaveur, and 5% equipment.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

ACL, 
good reply, thoughtful and rational (except the part where it sounds kind of like you may ride motorcyles 
I don't have much to add except that I have yanked and twisted on the bars (i'm a low-grade sprinter if anything) of an F8 myself, and I ride an SL4, and I can say flatly that there is no doubt the tarmac is stiffer in the front. Not that the F8 is bad, just run of the mill. And that's not a particularly meaningful measure anyway.
Also, there's something to what you say about the McLaren connection, but I read the R&D stuff they put out for public consumption really, really closely and I work with words for a living so I'm picking through the nuance. Yeah, there is a fair amount of smoke there, about the standard level for Specialized, which has some sort of half-evil, half-genius marketing mastermind working the levers all the time. But there is a bit more, if only a bit, than you think. Mainly its probably putting a lot more brainpower into designing the carbon layup schedule (essentially the menu for how much of what kind goes where) and analyzing the bikes in real world situations rather than on torture machines, to figure that out.
The nuances of Pinarello's marketing communications are more opaque, more like standard hype and perhaps because of that more troubling. At least with specialized I know the enemy, the BS to fact ratio has a known shape.... for some that just probably means the specialized stuff is more dangerous because they have just a little more truth to work with, if that makes sense.
But I just don't even faintly trust Pinarello claims. The company is run by a former playboy, the product has some weird quirks and always seemed behind the curve (weight, for example) by a generation, etc. and the prices... good lord. I don't want to say it's a swindle, but it doesn't feel right. No matter how you cut it, there is no more than a couple of hundred bucks of carbon in the finest bikes, and a few hundred more in the fork, bottom bracket, seat post, fittings..... and there is simply no way to justify $5,000 worth of R&D, profit, marketing, shipping, dealer markup etc. But maybe thats just me. Zipp apparently thinks it can get $3,700 for the same shape wheels it was selling for $2,700, so maybe I'm wrong.
The F8 is a bigger jump over the old model than the new Tarmac was over the SL4, but it had farther to jump. It is truly light, and is maybe the best looking road bike right now, depending on your taste. I like it, but it's worth about half what they are asking, if that.
The new tarmac looks like a nice if modest aesthetic refinement, but I'm not going to be trading in the SL4, as it sounds like there is really no meaningful performance difference. And for that matter, the SL4 wasn't a huge jump over the SL3, just mainly a little torsional stiffness taken out of the front. The weight was already really low in the SL3, and by now there aren't many refinements left to make, which is why so little has changed in the new one and they had to do something for marketing so they tailored the big and small ones better.
If you held a gun to my head I'd guess is the tarmac is the slightly better bike by most or all measures except looks, but I'd ride either of the new ones... someone else would have to pick up the tab though. And I'd be tempted to sand off the Pinarello logo and respray the whole thing... I'm nowhere near good enough to be seen on the bike I've got, let alone one that costs that much.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

and not to hijack the thread, but Ive been curious, do you actually have an ACL injury?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

McLaren vs Jaguar computer systems, meh, probably not much difference. 

What it boils down to for both Spesh and Pina is they get to run a modelling simulation over a weekend when the owners (McLaren and Jag) aren't busy with the real stuff.

Pinas are more expensive because of the finish work and fittings being added in Italy, while Spesh frames are completely finished in Taiwan. Huge differential in labour costs.

Where do you get the former playboy stuff about Fausto Pinarello?

He seems like a pretty decent guy, especially compared to the widely-despised head of Spesh. Go to one of their Fondos and you see the whole clan riding, Fausto, his sister and assorted kin.


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## Supha (Jun 5, 2014)

Hi Thumper, thanks for the comments. I had noticed the small mention of the McLaren version and mentioned it to my dealer last week. I'm not in any hurry so can wait and see what, if any difference, there is in that model.

I'm more interested in stiffness and responsiveness through the rear triangle rather than the front end so much - will be interesting to see if I get a test.

Still marginally on the side of the F8, for no other reason that I loved my 65.1 and it would niggle at me if I didn't replace it with another Dogma (irrational, guilty pleasure I guess).


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> McLaren vs Jaguar computer systems, meh, probably not much difference.
> 
> What it boils down to for both Spesh and Pina is they get to run a modelling simulation over a weekend when the owners (McLaren and Jag) aren't busy with the real stuff.
> 
> ...


Jaguar is the engineering equivalent of McLaren? Really? Jaguar doesn't even know what carbon is, and that's what we're talking about here. McLaren has been living and breathing it for years, makes whole cars of the stuff, right at the engineering limits.
Jaguar likely farms out their toughest engineering problems to the likes of McLaren.
I'll also venture there is a huge gulf between aerodynamics expertise. McLaren couldn't survive without an extraordinary amount of it, Jaguar has barely paid the topic notice.

As to Fausto, I think it was Road Bike Action or some such. And he does seem like a fine fellow, what little I can tell. But whether he's a decent guy and the CEO of specialized, or Trek or Giant for that matter is evil really isn't pertinent if the questions are whether the F8 or Tarmac is the better bike, and whether the F8 is massively overpriced. I'm not buying based on the personality of the CEO.
Italian or not, the fit and finish on the bike is not worth exactly the cost of someone else's entire, delivered top-end frame. I mean, seriously.
If that's what drives up the cost of the F8, it's a bad business decision not to have that done in Taiwan. I can't imagine there's much difference in the quality of the fitting and finishing, let alone THAT much.


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## David23 (Jun 5, 2012)

Just to muck up the discussion, have you considered a Look 695 Light? It has a proprietary oversize crank BB that is supposed to offer exceptional stiffness in that area. I haven't ridden it, but a very experienced friend just built one up and raves about the stiffness and responsiveness. It would likely offer some of the "uniqueness" you are interested in. Perhaps at least taking a look at the S Works Venge would be worth the time, particularly since you have a good relationship with that shop (something that I would put a lot of value in).


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I agree on Colnago. I went through Specialized's site and the prices for a complete bike seem right up there with Colnago, why not shop around and look at a discounted C-59. Seems people hold onto or value top end Colnagos more than Specialized bikes.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think the bike companies marketing department have basically decided to sell a bike for top dollar they need to check off the box that says joint development with car company, etc, so you have Colnago/Ferrari, Pinarello/Jaguar, Specialized/Mclaren. The partnerships seem as if they are done more for the ads, then for the engineering.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

The only way a buyer can truly know the value added of the partnership would be to see the actual contract and see the deliverables.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> The only way a buyer can truly know the value added of the partnership would be to see the actual contract and see the deliverables.


Which you haven't so all your babble is just speculation.

Who knows what Specialized gets from their partnership with McLaren? McLaren certainly knows a thing or twenty about aerodynamics and carbon layup. But as you said, no one knows the content of the contract.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> I think the bike companies marketing department have basically decided to sell a bike for top dollar they need to check off the box that says joint development with car company, etc, so you have Colnago/Ferrari, Pinarello/Jaguar, Specialized/Mclaren. The partnerships seem as if they are done more for the ads, then for the engineering.


They gave Cav a McLaren frame to ride. After a few stages he gave it back, he doesn't like it. Says the normal layup is superior. So there's that.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

How much is an Sworks Tarmac frame? I don't think it's a lot cheaper then the $5700 F8. They are both great bikes -get the one you love. How much did you like the 65.1? I love mine and if I had to replace it I would have an F8 today.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

Donn12 said:


> How much is an Sworks Tarmac frame? I don't think it's a lot cheaper then the $5700 F8. They are both great bikes -get the one you love. How much did you like the 65.1? I love mine and if I had to replace it I would have an F8 today.


The new version of the S-works is $3,750. So $2,000 is not a lot cheaper? For what probably in any measurable way is a better frame?
For most of us, that's real money. And there are other frames from other builders even less expensive that in any quantifiable way are better, i.e. lighter, stiffer torsionally and more aero.
Again, I like the F8, but let's not get silly about it. Buying one would be based mainly on emotion, which is what the marketing guys live for.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> The new version of the S-works is $3,750. So $2,000 is not a lot cheaper? For what probably in any measurable way is a better frame?
> For most of us, that's real money. And there are other frames from other builders even less expensive that in any quantifiable way are better, i.e. lighter, stiffer torsionally and more aero.
> Again, I like the F8, but let's not get silly about it. Buying one would be based mainly on emotion, which is what the marketing guys live for.


There will also be fairly high quality Expert and Pro level complete 2015 Tarmac bikes and framesets released in the next few weeks that fall in the $4000 price range as well.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> They gave Cav a McLaren frame to ride. After a few stages he gave it back, he doesn't like it. Says the normal layup is superior. So there's that.


He rode it for several races. It may be more lack of availability as they got newer bikes. There were only a couple McLarenes per team at most, and the production did not go on long.
I rode a 54cm McLaren eight or 10 tens, also riding standard S-Works Venge, which I own, between those rides for comparison. The McLaren was the tiniest bit stiffer on climbs and def had a different layup schedule and different carbon. It even sounded different when you tapped it here and there, more snare, less bass drum. But the difference on the road was nearly negligible and in truth I weight out both frames and the McLaren was 20 grams heavier than the black matte S-Works, likely due to the paint, which was gorgeous.
Not sure I would buy that even Cav could have told the difference in the layups, especially given those small frames he was riding, which would have been massively stiff.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

thumper8888 said:


> The new version of the S-works is $3,750. So $2,000 is not a lot cheaper? For what probably in any measurable way is a better frame?
> For most of us, that's real money. And there are other frames from other builders even less expensive that in any quantifiable way are better, i.e. lighter, stiffer torsionally and more aero.
> Again, I like the F8, but let's not get silly about it. Buying one would be based mainly on emotion, which is what the marketing guys live for.



I thought they were more like 5k but almost 4k is still a bunch for a frame. 
I would ride them both and get the one I REALLY wanted.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Rashadabd said:


> There will also be fairly high quality Expert and Pro level complete 2015 Tarmac bikes and framesets released in the next few weeks that fall in the $4000 price range as well.


These may be the best deals out there

I just got a MTB and the epic expert was the best bike for the money that I could find. Probably 95% of what you get if you spent over 10k on a dream bike.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

"Almost 6k" is 50 percent more than "almost 4K" ... that's not the same ballpark. 

I paid $1,800 for an SL4 S-works frame that had been ridden maybe twice. Can't help but look at $5700 for a lesser frame with a high look-at-me factor as a bad idea.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Top secret Tarmac pricing


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

Donn12 said:


> I thought they were more like 5k but almost 4k is still a bunch for a frame.
> I would ride them both and get the one I REALLY wanted.


Hey Donn, The BS in Highlands Ranch has one of those $2950 silver/black SL4 Pro framesets built out with everything ENVE and Sram red. Looks nice but just as pricey as any other higher end bikes.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Donn12 said:


> These may be the best deals out there
> 
> I just got a MTB and the epic expert was the best bike for the money that I could find. Probably 95% of what you get if you spent over 10k on a dream bike.


Yup, I agree. The SL4 Tarmac Sport and Elite are also actually really good deals IMO. There's just not a huge drop off performance or weight wise for the Tarmac, so if you can live with 105 for a season or two like I can....


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## packetloss (Jun 2, 2014)

Donn12 said:


> How much is an Sworks Tarmac frame? I don't think it's a lot cheaper then the $5700 F8. They are both great bikes -get the one you love. How much did you like the 65.1? I love mine and if I had to replace it I would have an F8 today.


The problem is the F8 is NOT a $5700 frame. You are paying purely for the paintjob and name. If all you care about is style and $5700 means nothing to you then go for it. 

The Sworks is $3700 and a lighter and better designed bike. Personally, I don't think the premium for 11r vs 10r carbon is worth it and the best value still is a pro or expert Tarmac.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

packetloss said:


> The problem is the F8 is NOT a $5700 frame. You are paying purely for the paintjob and name. If all you care about is style and $5700 means nothing to you then go for it.
> 
> The Sworks is $3700 and a lighter and better designed bike. Personally, I don't think the premium for 11r vs 10r carbon is worth it and the best value still is a pro or expert Tarmac.


This. And in fact there are probably shops with 2012-2013 SL3's hanging up which are also a bargain compared to $5,700. And whatever they would get for the McLaren Tarmac, which surely can't be THAT much better.
But OP apparently has the moolah. To some degree, which you have a stack of benjamins like that, its going to be about not having cognitive dissonance, which is what the marketing geniuses at specialized and trek and pinarello etc call buyers remorse.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

thumper8888 said:


> This. And in fact there are probably shops with 2012-2013 SL3's hanging up which are also a bargain compared to $5,700. And whatever they would get for the McLaren Tarmac, which surely can't be THAT much better.
> But OP apparently has the moolah. To some degree, which you have a stack of benjamins like that, its going to be about not having cognitive dissonance, which is what the marketing geniuses at specialized and trek and pinarello etc call buyers remorse.


The F8 would not be worth $5700 to many people but it is worth it to me . Many bikes are as light or lighter, some may be as stiff, most are cheaper etc. For me my 65.1 is worth every dollar I paid for it. I would buy another or an f8 in a heartbeat. Some people think it's stupid, some are jealous, many don't know what it is, many don't care. I don't care what other people think, I buy what I want. After I rode the dogma 65.1 with super record eps and zipp 303s, I REALLY wanted it. I would rather pay for that bike then have any other bike for free - including the Sworks Tarmac.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

Donn12 said:


> The F8 would not be worth $5700 to many people but it is worth it to me . Many bikes are as light or lighter, some may be as stiff, most are cheaper etc. For me my 65.1 is worth every dollar I paid for it. I would buy another or an f8 in a heartbeat. Some people think it's stupid, some are jealous, many don't know what it is, many don't care. I don't care what other people think, I buy what I want. After I rode the dogma 65.1 with super record eps and zipp 303s, I REALLY wanted it. I would rather pay for that bike then have any other bike for free - including the Sworks Tarmac.


Wasn't trying to be mean about it, and you shouldn't be either, re: the comment about free Tarmacs. The thread had veered off into the territory of bikes that were quite a bit cheaper than what the OP was interested it, and I was essentially pointing out what you're saying. People are funny creatures, and if you're simply not going to be happy on a bike there is really no point in buying it.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Not trying to be mean at all. I love my bike and wouldn't replace it with any other no matter what ..the OP is open to it so different situation.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

thumper8888 said:


> My take between the two manufacturers is that Pinarello is selling frames that cost them $800 to design, market and build for $5,700. .


Pinarello is a huge scam. For that money you can get a handmade in France Time. A superior bike. Colnago, Pinarello, DeRosa. . All trying to live on past glories when steel was real.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I agree with those that say ride what you like and can afford. However, I strongly suggest people do enough homework and test riding to move beyond the marketing hype to get to a place where they truly know what they are buying and the real world difference (ride quality and performance) between the bikes they are considering. It's liberating.... Even if you don't, no harm, no foul...


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think this is a lot like the Camaro vs Mustang argument. There will never be a clear winner, and fans will always argue one way or the other.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> I think this is a lot like the Camaro vs Mustang argument.


Neither one is a winner there. LOL


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## kps88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I think all the "Pro's" on here that talk about tiny details in stiffness and weight and whatever are pretty funny. Newsflash: Guys like Froome, Voigt, Wiggins, etc. may be able to tell subtle differences....funny some think they can too.

People buy what they can afford and what they think look cool.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> I think this is a lot like the Camaro vs Mustang argument. There will never be a clear winner, and fans will always argue one way or the other.


it's more like Vette/Viper versus Ferrari/Lambo argument.
The argument would be that one could take a Vette/Viper to a tune-shop and then dish some whoopass to the Ferrari/Lambo, for half the price. But no matter how bad the Ferrari/Lambo loses, the girl will jump into the Ferrari/Lambo before she'll jump into a Vette/Viper, just like she'll jump into a Vette before she'll jump into a Mustang. Money and status symbol speak loudly in a materialistic society, and don't tell me we aren't living in one!


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## Barts27 (Jul 17, 2011)

Interesting that people call Pinarello a scam. I wonder if they ever rode the bike. I have a Dogma 65.1 and a S-works Sl4 tarmac. I love both my bikes but the feeling I get on the Dogma is different. I love the Dogma more but I am a sucker for the S-work brand/logo. If I had to choose between a Tarmac expert or my Dogma, I would not hesitate for a second and take the Dogma. The Dogma is a great bike. They road feel is fantastic. The Tarmac is more nervous and firm. The Dogma is more a grand tourismo. A fast bike but less nervous. On long trips I always get less tired on the Dogma then on the Tarmac. So the wavy forms do have a purpose. If my 65.1 Dogma was broken I would pick up an F8. It took me a while to get used to the new F8, because the new model is less Italian looking and in a way less Pinarello but in real live a stunning bike.
If you want to buy an really expensive bike, remember that all bikes in that league are good bikes. The differences are small. Take the bike that you love and gives you a smile on your face when you look at it. Good luck!


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## David23 (Jun 5, 2012)

David23 said:


> Just to muck up the discussion, have you considered a Look 695 Light? It has a proprietary oversize crank BB that is supposed to offer exceptional stiffness in that area. I haven't ridden it, but a very experienced friend just built one up and raves about the stiffness and responsiveness. It would likely offer some of the "uniqueness" you are interested in. Perhaps at least taking a look at the S Works Venge would be worth the time, particularly since you have a good relationship with that shop (something that I would put a lot of value in).


This is exactly what I was going to suggest. The Look appears to be an exceptional bike, and my friend who rides it simply raves about it's performance and stiffness for climbing. I also am very happy with my S Works Venge.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

Barts27 said:


> Interesting that people call Pinarello a scam. I wonder if they ever rode the bike. I have a Dogma 65.1 and a S-works Sl4 tarmac. I love both my bikes but the feeling I get on the Dogma is different. I love the Dogma more but I am a sucker for the S-work brand/logo. If I had to choose between a Tarmac expert or my Dogma, I would not hesitate for a second and take the Dogma. The Dogma is a great bike. They road feel is fantastic. The Tarmac is more nervous and firm. The Dogma is more a grand tourismo. A fast bike but less nervous. On long trips I always get less tired on the Dogma then on the Tarmac. So the wavy forms do have a purpose. If my 65.1 Dogma was broken I would pick up an F8. It took me a while to get used to the new F8, because the new model is less Italian looking and in a way less Pinarello but in real live a stunning bike.
> If you want to buy an really expensive bike, remember that all bikes in that league are good bikes. The differences are small. Take the bike that you love and gives you a smile on your face when you look at it. Good luck!



Yes, I rode the bike. It was heavy and felt a tad dead compared with even the s-works venge let alone tarmac. Though that's not perhaps fair, as you really have to sort out fit to get a good sense of it, and I simply did Mt Ventoux on it.
There is no rational reason for the wavy forks. They were straight marketing. 
Even Pinarello has abandoned them and is on to their next placebo marketing took, which is apparently "engineering by Jaguar."

Do you think for a minute if they actually did anything Pinarello would have stopped using them? Or that no other bike maker ever used them?


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## Barts27 (Jul 17, 2011)

As you can see that everybody has a different experience and feeling about a bike. I love the way the Dogma 65.1 rides. I also like the way my Sl4 S-works rides. They ride different. Maybe the Onda waves are marketing but they stand out. A Pinarello Dogma is an icon imho and not a one of a kind bike with only a different decal.
I am not sure that I agree on the fact that the F8 has less Onda and that because of that the Onda shapes don't do anything. The F8 is more aero. They used the same front/fork as on the Pinarello timetrail bike. The Onda shapes are probably less aero but the 65.1 has more comfort. In the end it is always a compromise. The Venge is aero but not as stiff in the front. I believe that Specialized improved it but the Tarmac is stiffer. By the way; stiffer is not always better.


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