# Cervelo R5ca Frameset $9,800 - What's so special?



## roadbike_moron (Sep 22, 2007)

Insane! $9,800 for a frame set?
I am going to be very generous and guess the frame can't cost more than $600 each to produce.


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

What a joke.............but there will never be a shortage of morons who are going to snap it up.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I've noticed more and more of these framesets that cost up close to $10K. I guess they want to see if there really are suckers out there. 

Then again we've got $650 pedals, $4K wheel sets, $3.5K gruppos, $400 saddles. 

Either the stuff is getting better or the american $ isn't worth diddly.

Here's what I say, we all start a new trend by buying the cheapest least faddish stuff availble. Show up at your next race sporting a steel frame circa '75 with toe clips.


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## g-Bike (Jan 25, 2006)

That price is a joke. I am sure we will not see any local strong hero's riding one or even someone who can do his fair share of work on a group ride. If you do let us hear about it.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

the new Cannondale Evo is right in there in weight stiffness etc at a fraction of the price


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

roadbike_moron said:


> Insane! $9,800 for a frame set?
> I am going to be very generous and guess the frame can't cost more than $600 each to produce.


I'll agree that a 10k frame is excessive, but think of the exclusivity. They wouldn't be manufacturing them if there wasn't a market. The cost of raw materials and manufacturing are not the only costs!


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I think a good part of this "effort" by Cervelo is so that they can charge you $5000 for a Chinese made frame and convince you that you're getting a "bargain."

P.S. I'm not saying Cervelos aren't good bikes, just that they're not "good value."


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## roadbike_moron (Sep 22, 2007)

medimond said:


> I'll agree that a 10k frame is excessive, but think of the exclusivity. They wouldn't be manufacturing them if there wasn't a market. The cost of raw materials and manufacturing are not the only costs!


Maybe state of the art R&D cost? Heck no!
Not after seeing their low end, unsophisticated, stress test simulation - see link.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/05/road/cervelos-new-bike-the-superlight-super-expensive-super-limited-r5ca_118703/attachment/torture-test





Richard said:


> I think a good part of this "effort" by Cervelo is so that they can charge you $5000 for a Chinese made frame and convince you that you're getting a "bargain."."


Exactly, so now their $5k frame appears to be a bargain!


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

My understanding is they are made one at a time in N America. Of course so are Crumptons, Parlees, and a few others at a fraction of that price.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

The R5 CA is about the lightest frame you can buy - even lighter than the Parlee Z5 SL. They apparently use some process where there is almost no cloth overlap, which is why it is so light but rides just like an 1150g R3.

Some people are made of money. Good on 'em. At least it is US made. Check out Serottas prices for their rather heavy carbon offerings. $8400 for a 1400g Meivici SE frameset?


It might be stupid to spend this much to get a light carbon frame, but maybe it is almost as stupid to spend Trek, Cannondale or Specialized prices when there are other good Asian offering for much less.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

More than anything it's the engineers working day and night on a bicycle for crying out loud. 

If they want to get this technical they should work for NASA. 

A basic bike is very function, send the engineers home and cut the prices on all these bikes, we've done enough research, designs are good enough, all that's left is to stamp them out one after another and sell them for what your average middle income person makes these days on unemployment.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

bigbill said:


> My understanding is they are made one at a time in N America. Of course so are Crumptons, Parlees, and a few others at a fraction of that price.


BigBill's got it right.

These aren't the crap you think you can buy from Dong Fi or whoever. You order one, it gets built at the California R&D facility, one at a time.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

heathb said:


> More than anything it's the engineers working day and night on a bicycle for crying out loud.
> 
> If they want to get this technical they should work for NASA.
> 
> A basic bike is very function, send the engineers home and cut the prices on all these bikes, we've done enough research, designs are good enough, all that's left is to stamp them out one after another and sell them for what your average middle income person makes these days on unemployment.


Or...

They are getting paid to design a top of the line frame. Why not do it? If you're pissed that you can't afford it, then go cry in your Miller Lite. Just because it's not affordable to 75% of the cycling public doesn't mean it can't be produced.

Some people...really...


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Kontact said:


> It might be stupid to spend this much to get a light carbon frame, but maybe it is almost as stupid to spend Trek, Cannondale or Specialized prices when there are other good Asian offering for much less.


But when your plastic wonder bike from Trek, Cannondale or Specialized a$$plodes, you'll at least have somebody to go complain to and maybe even get it replaced under warranty.

P.S. Last I looked, Trek 6 series are still made in America. I like the fact that mine was.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

roadbike_moron said:


> Not after seeing their low end, unsophisticated, stress test simulation


Explain how you would conduct a stress test, the equipment and software you would use, and how you would produce the fixtures used. Please. Dazzle us and show much smarter you are than those stoopid engineer guys.

The frame costs a lot because 1: it is made by hand by people earning more than a Chinese sweat shop pays 2: cost of the mould is amortised over small run of frames. 3: extremely complex layup of cloth, taking a lot of time 4: trying new techniques, not mass production, is main priority

If the Chinese rip off artists had to figure out how to make a frame themselves, they would be charging a lot more or would not bother in the first place. No doubt they will be among the first customers, so they can take one apart to try and figure out the layup and materials used. So the money spent by Cervelo and their customers helps improve those crappy Hong Poo and Cyclingwong frames you love so much. You should thank Cervelo for their contribution.

Also, I would like to see third party verification of Cyclingyong's claim that their products passed EC safety tests. If they are dishonest enough to falsely label their frames "Colnago EPS" or "Pinarello Dogma" they are probably lying about their safety ratings. Selling products with false safety certification is far worse than selling expensive, well designed and well made frames.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

nothing......


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Explain how you would conduct a stress test, the equipment and software you would use, and how you would produce the fixtures used. Please. Dazzle us and show much smarter you are than those stoopid engineer guys.
> 
> The frame costs a lot because 1: it is made by hand by people earning more than a Chinese sweat shop pays 2: cost of the mould is amortised over small run of frames. 3: extremely complex layup of cloth, taking a lot of time 4: trying new techniques, not mass production, is main priority
> 
> ...


And then there's the disingenuous selling of branded frames that are really just cheap ripoffs...

But yeah, you hit the nail on the head. There's something special about it because it's a very exclusive frameset that pushes the envelope of technology and manufacturing. 

I'm surprised the OP isn't *****ing about the Colnago C59 Italia LE (after all, it is only $16,400.)


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> And then there's the disingenuous selling of branded frames that are really just cheap ripoffs...
> 
> But yeah, you hit the nail on the head. There's something special about it because it's a very exclusive frameset that pushes the envelope of technology and manufacturing.
> 
> I'm surprised the OP isn't *****ing about the Colnago C59 Italia LE (after all, it is only $16,400.)


Whether all that is true or not, the price is ridiculous. It's the cost of a new car for a single piece of molded carbon composite made on a stock die. When compared to a US made, nearly as light and fully custom Parlee, the contrast is a little absurd.

The CA is $10,000 because Cervelo has found out just how much they can charge for a Chinese bike, and they are going for all the market can bear. None of these will be sold to people who only make $29,000 a year but want the very best. They will be sold to people with six or seven digit incomes that have trouble deciding whether to wear the Rolex or Cartier each morning. To them, $10K is an abstraction, and maybe bragging rights.

It is fun to talk about the existance of such bikes, but they don't really occupy very much reality. This bike won't do anything that a host of fractionally priced machines will, so discussing its merits as if the price is a natural outcome of labor costs and development is a bit absurd.

Remember when the very first CD players were $5000? That's all this is.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> Whether all that is true or not, the price is ridiculous. It's the cost of a new car for a single piece of molded carbon composite made on a stock die. When compared to a US made, nearly as light and fully custom Parlee, the contrast is a little absurd.
> 
> The CA is $10,000 because Cervelo has found out just how much they can charge for a Chinese bike, and they are going for all the market can bear. None of these will be sold to people who only make $29,000 a year but want the very best. They will be sold to people with six or seven digit incomes that have trouble deciding whether to wear the Rolex or Cartier each morning. To them, $10K is an abstraction, and maybe bragging rights.
> 
> ...


Again, what you're forgetting is that the CA is not Chinese produced. There's a big difference between a cheap Chinese produced factory frame and a frame that is built as orders are placed, of course in America, where we actually pay more than a few pennies per hour.

So there's no comparison between Chinese mass produced frames and American produced very limited edition frames.

But it's all what you value. It's obvious that 99% of people nowadays will cut corners to buy the cheapest thing that will make them look good. For the other 1% of us who actually care about more than price, we're glad there are things like the CA out there.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Again, what you're forgetting is that the CA is not Chinese produced. There's a big difference between a cheap Chinese produced factory frame and a frame that is built as orders are placed, of course in America, where we actually pay more than a few pennies per hour.
> 
> So there's no comparison between Chinese mass produced frames and American produced very limited edition frames.
> 
> But it's all what you value. It's obvious that 99% of people nowadays will cut corners to buy the cheapest thing that will make them look good. For the other 1% of us who actually care about more than price, we're glad there are things like the CA out there.


How is a custom Parlee Chinese made?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> How is a custom Parlee Chinese made?


I wasn't commenting on the Parlee.

You said "Cervelo has found out just how much they can charge for a Chinese bike" but you're incorrect: the CA is produced in California.

The Parlee is a fantastic bike, without a doubt. However, it doesn't have Paris Roubaix victories, Tour stages and overalls, Giro stages and overalls, etc etc. Cervelo certainly does have that pedigree, and that's what marketing and branding can do for you. It lets Cervelo sell the CA for twice the price of similar products.

That's good business. Who cares who's buying it? Obviously people are, otherwise it would fade away into obscurity as a failed experiment.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> I wasn't commenting on the Parlee.
> 
> You said "Cervelo has found out just how much they can charge for a Chinese bike" but you're incorrect: the CA is produced in California.
> 
> ...


I said:


> When compared to a US made, nearly as light and fully custom Parlee, the contrast is a little absurd.


Then I said:


> The CA is $10,000 because Cervelo has found out just how much they can charge for a Chinese bike, and they are going for all the market can bear.


Meaning: Since they know they can charge $5000 for the Chinese R5, they figured they could charge a mint for a special US version.

The R5 CA has won pro races? I had thought only the Chinese ones had. Unless the US made Cervelos have seen pro use, they aren't any different than Parlees or Crumptons in that regard - super high end bikes that no pro uses. A Calfee actually won the Tour - what should they charge?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> I said:
> 
> Then I said:
> 
> ...


I do see what you were doing there, makes a little clearer sense.

It's not an issue of the model, and you know that. It's an issue of the brand. It's no different than Trek. People don't recognize the model, only the name.

If Calfree wants to charge more, than that's their prerogative. Complaining about the price isn't going to get you anywhere. If you don't want to spend the money they're asking, then don't spend the money, simple as that. No need for anyone to get their panties in a twist about it and start posting threads about "this thing is too f'in expensive, there's nothing special about it, it sucks, etc etc." It's productive for no one (as evidenced by the time I've wasted commenting on it.)


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> I do see what you were doing there, makes a little clearer sense.
> 
> It's not an issue of the model, and you know that. It's an issue of the brand. It's no different than Trek. People don't recognize the model, only the name.
> 
> If Calfree wants to charge more, than that's their prerogative. Complaining about the price isn't going to get you anywhere. If you don't want to spend the money they're asking, then don't spend the money, simple as that. No need for anyone to get their panties in a twist about it and start posting threads about "this thing is too f'in expensive, there's nothing special about it, it sucks, etc etc." It's productive for no one (as evidenced by the time I've wasted commenting on it.)


We aren't talking about a $4000 complete Trek. This is a $10,000 frameset. No one mindlessly spends $10,000 on just a frame because it has a mild association with the $2000 frames the "test team" rides.

Either CA is twice the bike you can get from Parlee and other companies, or it isn't. The fact that it is produced by a company that sells an S-ton of bikes and can afford pro sponsorship has little to do with that equation.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

Played with this one last weekend:










Pretty hot frame. Whoever built it shouldn't be allowed to touch such a sexy frame/ complete bike.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Kontact said:


> that have trouble deciding whether to wear the Rolex or Cartier each morning.
> .


Don't diminish the size of that decision. I had to choose between my Baume et Mercier Capeland and my Zenith Class IV Chrono this morning. In this case it was only moderately tough - I wanted to wear a pair of black Topsiders and the Baume has a black band and matching is critical. But I still had to think about it.

Choosing a bike wasn't so hard. I rode my Strong travel bike because I'm trying to round it up to 1300 miles before I ride something else.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> We aren't talking about a $4000 complete Trek. This is a $10,000 frameset. No one mindlessly spends $10,000 on just a frame because it has a mild association with the $2000 frames the "test team" rides.
> 
> Either CA is twice the bike you can get from Parlee and other companies, or it isn't. The fact that it is produced by a company that sells an S-ton of bikes and can afford pro sponsorship has little to do with that equation.


We're not talking about "twice the bike." You're the one who's saying price HAS to be aligned with utility. No high end frameset is appreciably different from any other. What makes something desirable is the name on the tube, among other things. Cervelo has a readily recognized name, so of course they will charge a premium. If riding a Cervelo with a 10K price tag brings someone happiness, then who's to say they are wrong? 

Imagine your saddles won a Tour, or a Giro, or some huge race. Would you market that? That's exposure for your entire model line, not just the model in question. Zipp markets wins on it's wheels, which ends up extending to their whole line. Been watching the Giro? Commercials with a bunch of pros saying they chose SRAM? Sure, they use Red, but that markets the whole line, not just Red.

Back to the OP's question: Is it worth 10K? Maybe it isn't to you or I, but maybe it is to someone else. It doesn't matter that your average joe sixpack will never ride one. This isn't communist Russia, where everyone has everything the same. If you have the money to spend, then spend it if you so choose. The bottom line is we're talking about a set price. Either buy it, or don't. The same goes for a cars: is the Lexus worth it? No? Then don't buy it, and buy a Toyota. 


And for that matter, one can certainly spend 10K on a Trek. Or a Colnago. Or a Pinarello. Ad nauseum.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> We're not talking about "twice the bike." You're the one who's saying price HAS to be aligned with utility. No high end frameset is appreciably different from any other. What makes something desirable is the name on the tube, among other things. Cervelo has a readily recognized name, so of course they will charge a premium. If riding a Cervelo with a 10K price tag brings someone happiness, then who's to say they are wrong?
> 
> Imagine your saddles won a Tour, or a Giro, or some huge race. Would you market that? That's exposure for your entire model line, not just the model in question. Zipp markets wins on it's wheels, which ends up extending to their whole line. Been watching the Giro? Commercials with a bunch of pros saying they chose SRAM? Sure, they use Red, but that markets the whole line, not just Red.
> 
> ...


I wasn't making a statement about utility. I was commenting on* your *statements about getting what you pay for in a US made frame. You seem to be changing your argument every time you post.

Is a $10,000 stock frame from Cervelo CA worth twice as much as a custom super light frame also made in the US by Parlee. I say; no.

You say, "pro races", "US wages", "name recognition" - none of which would really explain why a cyclist would feel that this purchase makes any sort of sense compared to similar, even better frames.

I already said that I can understand a rich person wanting "the best" (whatever that means) and dropping a tiny percentage of his net worth on this. But its value as a bicycle is certainly not tied up in what it does, how or where it was made, or even who else rides it. It is just priced to attract certain types of buyers who will spend that amount of money BECAUSE it is that amount of money.


BTW, we have one of these things hanging in the shop. It doesn't glow like the Arc of the Covenant or anything. It just hangs there being an insurance liability.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Worth it. Ordered 12 of them.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> I wasn't making a statement about utility. I was commenting on* your *statements about getting what you pay for in a US made frame. You seem to be changing your argument every time you post.
> 
> Is a $10,000 stock frame from Cervelo CA worth twice as much as a custom super light frame also made in the US by Parlee. I say; no.
> 
> ...


You're right. I DO value a US made product more than the crap they produce over in China, and I DO believe you get more when paying for a domestically produced product. I've made that abundantly clear in nearly every post on this board.

Now, I don't disagree with you on the perceived value of the CA. I simply don't believe that there should be a public piss and moan fest over the cost of said frameset. The poster asked what was so special about it, he got an answer. The price is set because the perceived value of the item is that of a highly engineered, super light frame produced in America by American craftsman. You complained that the price was ridiculous. You don't like the price? Don't buy it, end of discussion. Personally, I wouldn't buy one myself, but then again I don't care for Parlee either. I'd rather have a Cyfac for my next bike, but that's just my taste and my choice. Wait...what? I can choose what I want if I like it? Wow.


Why would any cyclist feel this frame is a better choice compared to any other frame out there? You're asking a question that can only be answered by the individual, and you can't seem to accept that. Some people look for the name of the bike, some people like the shape of the frame, some people say "I want the one that won ______." That's just how people are; different. However, you're trying to conform them to a single mold of "it's stupid to buy that, this one is better value." Well hell, a Honda Fit is great value compared to a BMW, but some people just want a BMW now don't they?

You and I aren't disagreeing that the price is substantial, bordering on absurd, and that only a certain type of person will be looking for these (weight weenies spring to mind, as do folks who have a bike rack on their Porsche.) What I'm contending throughout this thread is "who gives a crap who buys it if you're not going to." If you want to be perfectly frank, NONE of the frames that many of us ride are necessary. We could all be riding $600 aluminum frames with Sora parts and be perfectly happy. We choose to spend the money on what we think is important, be it weight, brand name, frame design, construction, frame styling, palmares...the list of reasons are endless.

Hell, you said it yourself, but you don't seem to be sticking to it:


> The R5 CA is about the lightest frame you can buy - even lighter than the Parlee Z5 SL. They apparently use some process where there is almost no cloth overlap, which is why it is so light but rides just like an 1150g R3.
> 
> Some people are made of money. Good on 'em. At least it is US made. Check out Serottas prices for their rather heavy carbon offerings. $8400 for a 1400g Meivici SE frameset?
> 
> ...


So which is it? Either "Some people are made of money. Good on 'em. (for buying a CA)" or "you're stupid for not buying a Parlee." Make up your mind.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> So which is it? Either "Some people are made of money. Good on 'em. (for buying a CA)" or "you're stupid for not buying a Parlee." Make up your mind.


Neither. I'm saying it is frivolous purchase for the rich, and offer the Parlee (which offers more "features", being custom and US hand made).

I'm not bothered by anyone buying or owning one of these. But there isn't any real argument to be made that the price represents any sort of intrinsic qualities that aren't found in greater amounts for much less money elsewhere. 

Normally I wouldn't bother belaboring such a point, but this thing costs what a car does and is priced nearly 100% more than even it's direct competition. That makes it bling - priced to be pricey above all else. It is more like a signed first edition book than an example of pinnacle engineering efforts. Bling.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

The Chinese should copy this and sell it for $1000. :thumbsup:


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> Neither. I'm saying it is frivolous purchase for the rich, and offer the Parlee (which offers more "features", being custom and US hand made).
> 
> I'm not bothered by anyone buying or owning one of these. But there isn't any real argument to be made that the price represents any sort of intrinsic qualities that aren't found in greater amounts for much less money elsewhere.
> 
> Normally I wouldn't bother belaboring such a point, but this thing costs what a car does and is priced nearly 100% more than even it's direct competition. That makes it bling - priced to be pricey above all else. It is more like a signed first edition book than an example of pinnacle engineering efforts. Bling.


And what's wrong with "bling" then? Maybe the buyer doesn't want a Parlee. Maybe they WANT a Cervelo and choose the CA. The only difference between the Parlee and the R5CA is the weight and the name on the downtube. For some folks (especially those who can ride off the shelf with no issues) those are selling points enough to justify the expenditure. As absurd as it may be, it IS their expenditure, not mine, or yours, or whoever's. 

I wouldn't belabor the point either, but lots of bikes cost more than a car. That means nothing, except maybe we don't value our cars as much as our bikes? I'd like to think that's what it means anyway...

Oh well. OP asked why so expensive. Reasons were stated. /thread.




mrbubbles said:


> The Chinese should copy this and sell it for $1000. :thumbsup:


Yeah. Great idea. Good way to Darwinize the herd of cheapskates out there.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> Yeah. Great idea. Good way to Darwinize the herd of cheapskates out there.


It is a great idea. Cervelo already handed over the instructions on how to make their entire lineup (sans R5CA), adding another one is no biggie.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mrbubbles said:


> It is a great idea. Cervelo already handed over the instructions on how to make their entire lineup (sans R5CA), adding another one is no biggie.


All I can do is shake my head at you. Sad.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> All I can do is shake my head at you. Sad.


Why is it "sad"? I'm curious.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mrbubbles said:


> Why is it "sad"? I'm curious.


No respect for the work of others. Just another denizen expecting the world for pennies. No ethical problems with counterfeiting.

We've been through this before. You're still wrong, and your indefensible sad morality annoys me, so welcome to my ignore list.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

robdamanii said:


> No respect for the work of others. Just another denizen expecting the world for pennies. No ethical problems with counterfeiting.


Paying for a product isn't disrespect, no one is expecting the world for pennies, just what's within reason. As far as ethics with counterfeiting goes, when Cervelo hands over tech info to 3rd parties, it's not "counterfeiting" per se, but rather going directly to the manufacturer as oppose to the brand company. 



robdamanii said:


> We've been through this before. You're still wrong, and your indefensible sad morality annoys me, so welcome to my ignore list.


Oh please, don't be so sensitive. You take this whole fad way too seriously.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> And what's wrong with "bling" then? Maybe the buyer doesn't want a Parlee. Maybe they WANT a Cervelo and choose the CA. The only difference between the Parlee and the R5CA is the weight and the name on the downtube. For some folks (especially those who can ride off the shelf with no issues) those are selling points enough to justify the expenditure. As absurd as it may be, it IS their expenditure, not mine, or yours, or whoever's.


The ONLY difference? Suddenly you can get the Cervelo with custom geometry and paint, with a choice of carbon lay ups?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with bling. I'm saying that's what it is, that's why the price is where it is. Conspicuous consumption is what we call that, and it doesn't fit with many people's personal value systems. And when they see some guy roll by on a CA and say "Show off", they'd be right, because only a small percentage of the asking price represents the product itself, and none of it represents customization. It is just the bicycle manifestation of the owning gold plated socks, or paying $28 for a box of Wheaties because Oprah is on it.

No, I don't have a problem with gold plated socks, either. Or Oprah.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> The ONLY difference? Suddenly you can get the Cervelo with custom geometry and paint, with a choice of carbon lay ups?
> 
> I didn't say there was anything wrong with bling. I'm saying that's what it is, that's why the price is where it is. Conspicuous consumption is what we call that, and it doesn't fit with many people's personal value systems. And when they see some guy roll by on a CA and say "Show off", they'd be right, because only a small percentage of the asking price represents the product itself, and none of it represents customization. It is just the bicycle manifestation of the owning gold plated socks, or paying $28 for a box of Wheaties because Oprah is on it.
> 
> No, I don't have a problem with gold plated socks, either. Or Oprah.


Please see:


> For some folks (especially those who can ride off the shelf with no issues)


I don't care about custom geometry, since I don't need it. Most people buying a bike don't care about it either, or we'd see a massive industry dealing in carbon frames with customizable geometry. As it is, the vast VAST majority of riders are perfectly happy with the Treks, Specializeds, Giants of the world.

Since you want to distill everything down to A vs B, here you go.

Parlee offers custom geometry, layup at X dollars.
Cervelo offers lightest stock frame, name recognition at 2X dollars.

You just don't seem to get that some people WANT that name recognition more than anything. So what if you don't see the value in it? Maybe they do, and they'll buy based upon that, not utilitarian value judgement. And if you think conspicuous consumption doesn't "fit in with many people's personal value systems" I'd like you to count the number of BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus, Acura, Porsche, Infinity, Audi etc that you see next time you run to the grocery store. Count the carats of diamonds, the ounces of gold, the number of designer clothes, designer shoes, handbags....ad infinitum. People everywhere are slaves to consumerism, and that doesn't stop when we get to sports equipment. What I can't understand is that you have a problem with this phenomenon in the bike industry, but there are every day examples of this absolutely everywhere that don't seem to bother you.

On an unrelated note...Oprah? On a box of Wheaties? That would be more than enough to deter my purchase.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Please see:
> 
> 
> I don't care about custom geometry, since I don't need it. Most people buying a bike don't care about it either, or we'd see a massive industry dealing in carbon frames with customizable geometry. As it is, the vast VAST majority of riders are perfectly happy with the Treks, Specializeds, Giants of the world.
> ...


I don't have a problem with consumerism, despite you telling me that I do. I sell bicycle components, remember?

But I am free to label something as a "poor value" or "pretentious luxury item" without being labeled as a communist.


The jist of all this is that the CA's price is out of line with the rest of the industry. And Cervelo will be offering a nearly identical bike in a year or two at a fraction of that price.

Buy it, don't buy it, whatever. Just don't pretend that $10,000 is buying elfin magic - it's just a really nice stock frame that comes in one color.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> I don't have a problem with consumerism, despite you telling me that I do. I sell bicycle components, remember?
> 
> But I am free to label something as a "poor value" or "pretentious luxury item" without being labeled as a communist.
> 
> ...


Which is no different than most top of the line offerings from most manufacturers. See C59 Italia LE, Dogma, S-Works SL3, Supersix Evo Ultimate, anything produced by Storck, etc etc.

You're free to label anything you want. I'm free to label it anything I want. That's the beauty of the free market, and why Cervelo charges $10k for a frame.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> What I can't understand is that you have a problem with this phenomenon in the bike industry, but there are every day examples of this absolutely everywhere that don't seem to bother you.
> 
> .


A bit of an interesting statement considering the discussion I had with you yesterday in the other thread about cars where you accused someone who had bought an Acura of having "more money than brains", called owners of such cars "Snobs" and then proceeded to put down the brand based on your personal needs even though it wasn't your expenditure.  

So how is it that buying a $10k frame like this is not also a case of having "more money than brains" then? Hypocrite much?




Personally, having never ridden such a bike I wouldn't suggest it is or isn't worth the money, but I sure hope it brings some rather big riding characteristic other than bling to the table










.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

MoPho said:


> A bit of an interesting statement considering the discussion I had with you yesterday in the other thread about cars where you accused someone who had bought an Acura of having "more money than brains", called owners of such cars "Snobs" and then proceeded to put down the brand based on your personal needs even though it wasn't your expenditure.
> 
> So how is it that buying a $10k frame like this is not also a case of having "more money than brains" then? Hypocrite much?
> 
> ...


Note that I never said it WASN'T a case of more money than brains, simply that it's justifiable in X, Y, Z reasons to the consumer, and that Cervelo has every right to charge what they wish for it. Doesn't matter what alternatives are out there if people will buy it, as evidenced daily by the automotive industry.

Anyone buying a "luxury car" has more money than brains. An R5CA doesn't depreciate 30% off the rack, nor does it cost $70 in gas every 3 days to keep it moving. 

I stand by my statement in a previous thread that buying an expensive car is stupid.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

MoPho said:


> A bit of an interesting statement considering the discussion I had with you yesterday in the other thread about cars where you accused someone who had bought an Acura of having "more money than brains", called owners of such cars "Snobs" and then proceeded to put down the brand based on your personal needs even though it wasn't your expenditure.
> 
> So how is it that buying a $10k frame like this is not also a case of having "more money than brains" then? Hypocrite much?
> 
> ...


Did he? Jeez.


The CA rides identically to the R3, FYI.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Note that I never said it WASN'T a case of more money than brains, simply that it's justifiable in X, Y, Z reasons to the consumer, and that Cervelo has every right to charge what they wish for it. Doesn't matter what alternatives are out there if people will buy it, as evidenced daily by the automotive industry.
> 
> Anyone buying a "luxury car" has more money than brains. An R5CA doesn't depreciate 30% off the rack, nor does it cost $70 in gas every 3 days to keep it moving.
> 
> I stand by my statement in a previous thread that buying an expensive car is stupid.



Except an expensive car brings with it more luxury, performance, features, safety, fit and finish, feel, etc and this bike, as far as I can tell, does nothing more than the lesser priced bikes they offer. It doesn't even do "bling" better 



> An R5CA doesn't depreciate 30% off the rack, nor does it cost $70 in gas every 3 days to keep it moving.


And it also is a simple machine that can't be compared to a car which is extremely complicated, does a whole lot more than a bicycle, has thousands of parts and takes a huge engineering effort with thousands of people involved, which is why it is even more absurd that a bicycle costs this much.



> I stand by my statement in a previous thread that buying an expensive car is stupid.


So you don't have a problem with it in the bicycle industry, but in the car industry it bothers you..... I see








Kontact said:


> The CA rides identically to the R3, FYI.



So I guess it wouldn't have helped that Cervelo rider I dropped yesterday while I was on my 16yo, 20lb Steel DeRosa then, huh?  

.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

MoPho said:


> Except an expensive car brings with it more luxury, performance, features, safety, fit and finish, feel, etc and this bike, as far as I can tell, does nothing more than the lesser priced bikes they offer. It doesn't even do "bling" better


So a BMW gets you to and from work or the supermarket better than a Honda Civic? I never knew you could make going to get a six pack BETTER! Holy crap, I have to have one if it's better! No, make it a Rolls! That's even better to get me to work!  

Luxury vehicles are stupid creatures that do nothing but inflate your sense of ego. They are an even larger money pit than a cheap vehicle, and it performs the same basic function, save for the "sock in the pants" effect. 

Now, for someone who's got more money than brains, that R5CA might be the motivation to get that BMW driving lardo out for a spin. That's his choice, his motivation, and no matter what the case, it's money better spent than on a lease down payment.


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Expensive bicycles are stupid creatures that do nothing but inflate your sense of ego.



Fixed that for you.  


Obvious double standard is obvious :lol:


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

MoPho said:


> Obvious double standard is obvious :lol:


The emo quotient is high. The free market is beautiful when it comes to expensive bicycles, but god forbid if you spend money on expensive cars, or inexpensive replicas.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

MoPho said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> 
> Obvious double standard is obvious :lol:


Perhaps. At least the bicycle gives you something rather than taking it away.

But then again, I value things like that. You obviously, do not.


----------



## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Kontact said:


> The jist of all this is that the CA's price is out of line with the rest of the industry. And Cervelo will be offering a nearly identical bike in a year or two at a fraction of that price.


Actually they offer the identical bike now.

http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/bikes/2011/R5/

I don't see how that matters either.


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

A Chinese frame going for $5300, there's a lot of suckers in the world.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

mrbubbles said:


> A Chinese frame going for $5300, there's a lot of suckers in the world.


perhaps you don't realize the value of a non-Chinese warranty!


----------



## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> So a BMW gets you to and from work or the supermarket better than a Honda Civic? I never knew you could make going to get a six pack BETTER! Holy crap, I have to have one if it's better! No, make it a Rolls! That's even better to get me to work!
> 
> Luxury vehicles are stupid creatures that do nothing but inflate your sense of ego. They are an even larger money pit than a cheap vehicle, and it performs the same basic function, save for the "sock in the pants" effect.
> 
> Now, for someone who's got more money than brains, that R5CA might be the motivation to get that BMW driving lardo out for a spin. That's his choice, his motivation, and no matter what the case, it's money better spent than on a lease down payment.


Whats would be more fun at the track...a Honda Civic or a BMW?

If you go by that argument why not just get a Walmart bike...it'll get you up that hill too. 

I've had both cars...and its not the Civic.


----------



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

AvantDale said:


> Whats would be more fun at the track...a Honda Civic or a BMW?
> 
> If you go by that argument why not just get a Walmart bike...it'll get you up that hill too.
> 
> I've had both cars...and its not the Civic.


Your average BMW owner doesn't take their car to the track. Your average cyclist doesn't race.

For either average person, a simple base model will do. Not a piece of crap that will fall apart in a week, but something that is solidly built, reliable and reasonable in cost.

For the outliers, they choose to spend money on equipment in line with their activities. That still doesn't make them intrinsically "better" at anything except emptying your wallet.

If you have the disposable income to empty your wallet, then "good on you." Emptying your wallet for a bike is (in my opinion) a much more worthwhile pursuit than wasting money on a car.


----------



## vancouver-rider (Apr 14, 2011)

So I read all 3 pages of this thread so far and can't believe the ink (bytes?) wasted.

If you don't think the R5ca is worth it, don't buy it. End of story. Cervelo is an engineering firm that wants a technical show case. The R5ca is priced as such. They are NOT so much a custom framebuilder for exceptionally tall or short individuals. 

We live in a world of Pagani Huaryas, Bugatti Veyrons and Porsche 918 Hybrids and somehow a manufacturer who makes a halo model draws your ire?

The wonderful pleasure of the moment is that we cyclists HAVE A CHOICE of materials, builders and manufacturers all offering wonderful products and accessories. It is hard to imagine a better age of cycling than the present that we live in. From retro-Rivendells to cutting edge carbons like Cervelo and deformed monstrosities like Pinarello (steel forever!  ), the market caters to the consumer. From Parlee to Bikesdirect.com. We have choice.

I suspect, the anger directed to Cervelo has more to do with American nationalism and resentment against out-sourced manufacturing more than Cervelo's pricing for a halo model.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*claim rule?*



heathb said:


> Here's what I say, we all start a new trend by buying the cheapest least faddish stuff availble. Show up at your next race sporting a steel frame circa '75 with toe clips.


In some auto racing, they have a "claim rule." Loser gets to take the car or engine of the winner for a stated amount or trade. What kind of bike would you ride if anyone could take it for $1000 if you do well?


----------



## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

There sure has been a lot of racism posted on this thread in particular, and on this forum in general. It's covered by a thin film of "quality" which has no basis in fact. If in fact we are better, we should at least act better. If we aren't better, we really need to act better.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*no*



AlexCad5 said:


> There sure has been a lot of racism posted on this thread in particular, and on this forum in general. It's covered by a thin film of "quality" which has no basis in fact. If in fact we are better, we should at least act better. If we aren't better, we really need to act better.


I don't see it. If you are talking about the issue of low quality goods from China, I don't think it has anything to do with race, but solely quality. Doesn't matter if it's China, Germany, Japan, U.S., or whatever. Can't take the issue of quality off the table by injecting the word "race" into it.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

AlexCad5 said:


> There sure has been a lot of racism posted on this thread in particular, and on this forum in general. It's covered by a thin film of "quality" which has no basis in fact. If in fact we are better, we should at least act better. If we aren't better, we really need to act better.


Racism? Quote it.

Most people I know who have a problem with Chinese made goods take issue with the kind of society it is the living standards of the workers. And many of them would happily buy from the free and democratic Chinese that live in Taiwan.


ewitz said:


> Actually they offer the identical bike now.
> 
> http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/bikes/2011/R5/
> 
> I don't see how that matters either.


The R5 is not as light as the R5 CA. The R3, R5 and CA all ride the same, but use different carbon lay ups. That's pretty much it, except you don't need to re-rivit the R5 cable stops. We have all three at the shop.


----------



## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

I don't think that there is any "racist" statements posted up, but there alot of assumptions on how things are made. I'm sure this forum is mainly dominated by white men...so take it for what it is.

I think people need to get over the romanticism of bikes being made in some European country by a pair of "white" hands. Alot of these bike brands are holding on by heritage and name alone.

So would it more acceptable if the Chinese owned factory was in Italy or France?


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

AvantDale said:


> I don't think that there is any "racist" statements posted up, but there alot of assumptions on how things are made. I'm sure this forum is mainly dominated by white men...so take it for what it is.
> 
> I think people need to get over the romanticism of bikes being made in some European country by a pair of "white" hands. Alot of these bike brands are holding on by heritage and name alone.
> 
> So would it more acceptable if the Chinese owned factory was in Italy or France?


Again, I don't see where this comes from. White hands? Chinese owned European factories? Huh?

People want to know that there is some connection between the product and designers, that those designers like bicycling and that the people making the bikes aren't the slaves of a tyrannical society.


----------



## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Europe is the mecca of cycling culture. Booyah


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Kontact said:


> Again, I don't see where this comes from. White hands? Chinese owned European factories? Huh?
> 
> People want to know that there is some connection between the product and designers, that those designers like bicycling and that the people making the bikes aren't the slaves of a tyrannical society.


It's very simple. China made bike, bad. American/European made bike, good. 

On a similar note, no brand name nude carbon frame, bad (to some people), the same people will find brand names with excessive marketing the best thing since sliced bread. Guys like robdamanii wouldn't be caught dead with a no name carbon frame even if it was top notch, that's how emotionally invested they are.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*Italy*



mrbubbles said:


> It's very simple. China made bike, bad. American/European made bike, good.


No, no, no. Needs to be made in Italy by an old man using hand tools in a little outbuilding behind his house. At 3 p.m. he takes a nap, then starts working again around 6. No work gets done during the Giro or in August. He hand paints his signature on the frames. Eddy Merckx and the Pope are on his waiting list....


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> It's very simple. China made bike, bad. American/European made bike, good.
> 
> On a similar note, no brand name nude carbon frame, bad (to some people), the same people will find brand names with excessive marketing the best thing since sliced bread. Guys like robdamanii wouldn't be caught dead with a no name carbon frame even if it was top notch, that's how emotionally invested they are.


So a bike made in Taiwan or Japan is what? European?

Sure sounds simple.


"Brand" is a complicated concept, but part of it is that you establish and maintain a reputation so people have a reason to buy from you that isn't just that you were the cheapest. Which brand of brandless bike would you recommend? How do I know I got the same brand of brandless bike as the brandless brand you recommend?


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Fixed said:


> No, no, no. Needs to be made in Italy by an old man using hand tools in a little outbuilding behind his house. At 3 p.m. he takes a nap, then starts working again around 6. No work gets done during the Giro or in August. He hand paints his signature on the frames. Eddy Merckx and the Pope are on his waiting list....


The old man must also make excellent cappuccino and pasta, drinks red wine for lunch, and tell wonderful stories about how his bike was the winning steed for Fausto Coppi. When you buy a bike from this guy, you can later tell your grandkids about his revered stories.  



Kontact said:


> "Brand" is a complicated concept, but part of it is that you establish and maintain a reputation so people have a reason to buy from you that isn't just that you were the cheapest. Which brand of brandless bike would you recommend? How do I know I got the same brand of brandless bike as the brandless brand you recommend?


Branding makes thing simpler, a successful brand creates emotional attachments, it creates trust and bond between the brand and the buyer. Most buyers with disposable income aren't going to bother with researching grades of carbon fiber or read specs to determine ride quality, it's a recreation, not a lab manual.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> Branding makes thing simpler, a successful brand creates emotional attachments, it creates trust and bond between the brand and the buyer. Most buyers with disposable income aren't going to bother with researching grades of carbon fiber or read specs to determine ride quality, it's a recreation, not a lab manual.


The air must be thin today, because I cannot follow any of your points.

What do grades of carbon fiber have to do with brand or model reputation? What do carbon fiber grades have to do with the quality of the bike (hint - nothing). You can make a superlative bike out of "low" modulous carbon, or a complete crap using the medium stuff. Design and execution determine that.

So is a bike made in Asia, but not China, Chinese or European? Still not clear on that.


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Kontact said:


> The air must be thin today, because I cannot follow any of your points.
> 
> What do grades of carbon fiber have to do with brand or model reputation? What do carbon fiber grades have to do with the quality of the bike (hint - nothing). You can make a superlative bike out of "low" modulous carbon, or a complete crap using the medium stuff. Design and execution determine that.


You mentioned reputation which I assume is quality, so I'll ask, how do you determine quality in absence of branding? If all the name brand bikes were suddenly painted nude and you couldn't tell which is which, how would you determine quality?



Kontact said:


> So is a bike made in Asia, but not China, Chinese or European? Still not clear on that.



A bike made in Asia is a bike made in Asia, you're making it complicated than it needs to be.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> You mentioned reputation which I assume is quality, so I'll ask, how do you determine quality in absence of branding? If all the name brand bikes were suddenly painted nude and you couldn't tell which is which, how would you determine quality?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is Asia good or bad, like Chinese is bad? 


How do you determine quality without reputation? You can't. An apparently good looking bike might have any number of major flaws in it's construction, and you'll find them out when the bike fails. Slapping a Reynolds or High Modulous sticker on it doesn't tell you anything about the quality, just what kind of materials you started with. Weld times, cleanliness, vaccuum bagging and layup neatness are what make or break (literally) a bike.

I'm sorry, "looks like a Dogma" isn't an indicator.


----------



## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

Kontact said:


> Is Asia good or bad, like Chinese is bad?


That depends on various factors. My original post about "China made bike, bad. American/European made bike, good." was a parody, wasn't serious.



Kontact said:


> How do you determine quality without reputation? You can't.


Sure you can. How do major brand companies outsource their productions to manufacturers you never heard of? It's called "quality assurance". 



Kontact said:


> An apparently good looking bike might have any number of major flaws in it's construction, and you'll find them out when the bike fails. Slapping a Reynolds or High Modulous sticker on it doesn't tell you anything about the quality, just what kind of materials you started with. Weld times, cleanliness, vaccuum bagging and layup neatness are what make or break (literally) a bike.
> 
> I'm sorry, "looks like Dogma" isn't an indicator.


I agree, now that you tied quality to reputation, I'll ask another question, in absence of reputation, how do you determine quality? What is a quality bike? Can you even tell?


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> Sure you can. How do major brand companies outsource their productions to manufacturers you never heard of? It's called "quality assurance".
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, now that you tied quality to reputation, I'll ask another question, in absence of reputation, how do you determine quality? What is a quality bike? Can you even tell?


You seem to be muddling consumers being able to tell quality from a bike company being able to do it. Do you think those are the same? What sort of testing equipment do you own?

Again; no, the consumer cannot completely tell what is quality or not beforehand, which has something to do with the various brands that no longer exist. A consumer can spot bad quality sometimes, but hidden defects are a lot harder. This is one reason Trek was quick to point out that their lower line was made by Giant in the old days, because Giant had a rep with Specialized buyers.

I could build you an absolutely beautiful 853 frame that would break in minutes. But it would have nice looking welds and paint and a cool Reynolds sticker on it. No brand sticker, though.


----------



## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

vancouver-rider said:


> So I read all 3 pages of this thread so far and can't believe the ink (bytes?) wasted.


But it has indeed been entertaining watching some people trying to justify the price of said frame.

There's no question in my mind that most bicycle frames and components are incredibly over-priced regardless of where they're built. $4k+ wheelsets  give me a break. But...if people are willing to spend the money for them more power to them. FWIW I couldn't imagine paying even $5k for a bike if the frame was hand built by Eddy Merckx, the bike assembled by Jacques Anquetil, testridden by Fausto Coppi and packed in the box by Felice Gimondi.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

what's a $10k bike frame when you can buy a watch like the Vacheron Tour de l’Ile for $1,250,000 or the Patek Philippe Ref 5016P for $762,000. Do you think they tell time much better than a $200 one?


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

stevesbike said:


> what's a $10k bike frame when you can buy a watch like the Vacheron Tour de l’Ile for $1,250,000 or the Patek Philippe Ref 5016P for $762,000. Do you think they tell time much better than a $200 one?


I sincerely hope that a Cervelo doesn't count as the Patek of the bike world. I compared it to Rolex for a reason, and it wasn't complimentary.


----------



## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Will the R5 help you generate more watts? Or generate more laughs?


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Wow. I've never seen the Law of Diminishing Returns generate such heated controversy.

It's a ridiculously expensive frame that won't help you go that much faster. But if you can afford it and want it, buy it. Knock yerself out.

I won't be jealous, in fact, I won't even care. I say that as someone who can afford one.

I don't understand being offended by the R5ca. I also don't understand lusting after it. I'm just not 'weight weenie' enough, I guess.
.


----------



## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Its just like any other hobby...if your into it...and can afford it...why not?

You can bet your bottom dollar that if I can afford a GT3...I'd buy it!


----------



## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Yeah, but that there Porsche is made in "Yurrup!"


----------



## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

Some guys love to argue. And they're hypocritical while they are at it. What ya gonna do?


----------



## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Richard said:


> Yeah, but that there Porsche is made in "Yurrup!"


Ok...how about a Japanese tuned 930? :idea:


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

SystemShock said:


> I don't understand being offended by the R5ca. I also don't understand lusting after it. I'm just not 'weight weenie' enough, I guess.
> .


The same guys say they don't lust after Megan Fox or Angelina Jolie because they have tattoos.

I convinced myself I'd never want a Ferrari because my neighbour's looks so uncomfortable.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> The same guys say they don't lust after Megan Fox or Angelina Jolie because they have tattoos.
> 
> I convinced myself I'd never want a Ferrari because my neighbour's looks so uncomfortable.


LOL. Well, some ppl lust after Ferraris. Other prefer Aston Martins, or Lambos. Maybe this Cervelo just isn't the 'right flavor of hotness' pour moi.

Far as Megan Fox or Jolie goes... yeah, they're hot. But borderline-crazy chicks make me nervous. I think I'm more a Jessica Biel or Anne Hathaway fan. :yesnod:
.......


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*this?*

like this?


----------



## vancouver-rider (Apr 14, 2011)

Kate Beckinsale for me please.


----------



## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Sacrelige!*



Fixed said:


> like this?


An orange bike with a blue panel? Errrr... There can be only one.


----------



## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

vancouver-rider said:


> Kate Beckinsale for me please.


My GOD man! Way to go off topic!!!
 

I LOVES ME SOME Kate Beckinsale!!!

Just recently saw "whiteout". She is HAWT!!


----------



## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

People ARE beating the sh*t out of this topic... 

Cervelo is not counting on this frame to make money!!! 

The key is to creat the "ultimate" frame to lust for (for the next 6 months anyway), and to peg the level of lust, they use a convenient number of $10K. If they priced it at $5K then it'd not create this much fanfare. It's called marketing. 

Deep down they don't give a sh*t what these sell for. They care much more about the R3s/R3s that fly off the shelf. 

Why is it so hard to understand?


----------



## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

elviento said:


> People ARE beating the sh*t out of this topic...
> 
> Cervelo is not counting on this frame to make money!!!
> 
> ...


Exactly my point. Create a $10K frameset and all of a sudden a Chinese (as opposed to Taiwan - and I will beg to differ) frameset for $5K looks like a bargain.

Believe me, I'm not knocking the "quality control" a manufacturer can get out of mainland China if they stay on top of it. But it's all about labor costs and mainland China is somewhat "south" of Taiwan.

When Dorel Industries bought out Cannondale they literally bragged that labor costs in Pennsylvania and Connecticut were 28 times higher than China. Fine! All well and good!

So why am I paying the same price for their products?


----------



## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

Kontact said:


> You seem to be muddling consumers being able to tell quality from a bike company being able to do it. Do you think those are the same? What sort of testing equipment do you own?
> 
> Again; no, the consumer cannot completely tell what is quality or not beforehand, which has something to do with the various brands that no longer exist. A consumer can spot bad quality sometimes, but hidden defects are a lot harder. This is one reason Trek was quick to point out that their lower line was made by Giant in the old days, because Giant had a rep with Specialized buyers.
> 
> I could build you an absolutely beautiful 853 frame that would break in minutes. But it would have nice looking welds and paint and a cool Reynolds sticker on it. No brand sticker, though.


Do you push custom frames this much in "your shop"? You seem overly obsessed with fixing something that ain't broke. As mentioned before, most cyclists fit into standard frame sizes and but apparently one needs to get a custom frame to be approved in your eyes.


----------



## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

mtrider05 said:


> Do you push custom frames this much in "your shop"? You seem overly obsessed with fixing something that ain't broke. As mentioned before, most cyclists fit into standard frame sizes and but apparently one needs to get a custom frame to be approved in your eyes.


Where do I mention custom frames in that quote? 


No, I don't push anything. But if I was to compare the "value" of different highly expensive bicycles, the added time, effort, consideration and customer service it takes to execute a custom would get mentioned. There is simply no comparison in the amount of effort it takes to make one over a molded frame, which is why it is pertinent to this discussion.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*but*



Cinelli 82220 said:


> An orange bike with a blue panel? Errrr... There can be only one.


Except there are at least 5 of those claimed to be "the one."


----------



## jermso (May 13, 2009)

mopho said:


> except an expensive car brings with it more luxury, performance, features, safety, fit and finish, feel, etc and this bike, as far as i can tell, does nothing more than the lesser priced bikes they offer. It doesn't even do "bling" better
> and it also is a simple machine that can't be compared to a car which is extremely complicated, does a whole lot more than a bicycle, has thousands of parts and takes a huge engineering effort with thousands of people involved, which is why it is even more absurd that a bicycle costs this much..


exactamundo


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I know who is responsible for making that frame. He believes in the product and he is an experienced competitive rider. They are good bikes with good production supervision. Still, the value comes from the market. The technological aspects, R&D and other production elements do not go anywhere near justifying that price. The price comes from the consumer's perception in the value of the brand and their bikes. Building brand value is key for these companies and they do this through their sponsorships with the hopes of seeing their riders on the podium. Cervelo has succeeded in doing so because they ponied up the equipment. The consumer hopes to buy into a little bit of that professional credibility and "magic". Lets face it, fantasy plays a big part in it. 

Over the past two years I have seen another company go from a couple guys with sourcing connections... to a company with international name recognition. I could't believe people were willing to pay X dollars for the exact same thing another brand sells for less... an ODM product that is identical to dozens of other products, simply with differing logos. Their stuff is still OEM/ODM sourced frames and components, but they invested in sponsorships that put a positive spin on their brand. They don't really do any of the engineering, but just buy a mold... or rent a mold. 

Check out this article:
http://www.satincesena.net/?p=1897


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## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

i had read on their press release that it's made here in the states, Garden Grove CA as a matter of fact. Probably made by my cousins (a little Asian reference as it's near Little Saigon). But it goes on to say that the Engineers build the frames hence the low production numbers which equates to the higher per unit cost...if you buy into that.

But i'm sure if you know someone that works for them in good ol Garden Grove they can sell you one from the back door LOL


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

I guess what I don't get is why shell out close to 10 grand on something that probably won't be 'the ultimate' in a year's time?

Cervelo or a competitor will come out with something else that'll be just a _hair_ lighter or 'better', and then, alluva sudden, the R5ca isn't worth near what you paid for it. 

Seems like a silly game to get into, but hey, it's your money, blow it as you will. 
.


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## StillKeen (Oct 4, 2005)

I saw one of these in a shop this week, frame up on the wall without a price tag. I asked and was told 7,500 pounds (in UK) ... it was a shop I've not been into before, and wasnt sure if I was being told a lie just because I looked like I was just kicking tires. I googled it, and the price was right.

With such a low production volume and many engineers and other mouths to feed, I can see how the price got out of control. I personally would struggle to spend twice the price of a Look 695 Mondrian on a Cervelo.

As for quality control Asia vs The West, it is very difficult to get product quality right in small production runs. Given a riding buddies friend had two replacement Cervelo's under warranty due to broken chain stays, what happens in 18 months time when my limited edtion $10k bike breaks ... they won't have many spares sitting around, and being offered a R5prc frame thats $5k and being told ''its just as good, due to trickle down technology'' ... that'd piss me off.

So, the frame looked nice, but (I thought when I looked at it) doesnt have internal cable routing ... no ANT speed sensor built into the chain stay ... hasnt been ridden to TdF victory (yet).

I think I read they were making 200 ... which I believe they will find 200 buyers for ... and it's certainly gaining a lot of lust from many people.

As for the comment about depreciation ... surely it'll drop very very fast, esp with the warranty only applying to the first owner.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

They have all of this up on Cervelo's series "Beyond the Peloton." The frame was never produced to sell, it was produced as a technology test bed to just see what they were capable of. If one is to believe the video it's all produced in house @ Cervelo California (which I think has now shut down?). To make up some of the R&D costs just to test their theories they produce a bike that's available to the public and will continue to produce the bike as long as demand dictates. It's all pretty simple. Is it worth the price? Probably not, but it depends upon how much disposable income one has to spend. 

If one must compare it to cars think of the Bugatti Veyron. That was never really supposed to sell either as Bugatti will not net a profit from the sale of the Veyron. The R&D and production costs will always outweigh the amount they're charging for the car. 

You got to realize numerous companies do this for publicity and marketing. If they can in the end produce a product that the public will buy, so be it. If you don't think it's worth the price, balk at the price and don't buy it. I can tell you there's more than a few that have bought the R5ca.


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

I wouldn't buy the Cervelo R5ca, I rather buy a Wilier Cento Uno Di2 frame and probably a Colnago C59 or M10 frame. I could buy 2 top of the line frames from other companies and still have some money leftover.


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## aingeru (Aug 29, 2010)

terry b said:


> Don't diminish the size of that decision. I had to choose between my Baume et Mercier Capeland and my Zenith Class IV Chrono this morning. In this case it was only moderately tough - I wanted to wear a pair of black Topsiders and the Baume has a black band and matching is critical. But I still had to think about it.
> 
> Choosing a bike wasn't so hard. I rode my Strong travel bike because I'm trying to round it up to 1300 miles before I ride something else.



Buy the Zenith. Baume Mercier is crap.


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## surly7 (Oct 29, 2008)

Just curious... 

If the price was the same what would the majority of our read choose R5ca or Parlee Z1,

Is it possible the Z1 is actaul better, and because of marketing and recognition in the world of racing, Cervelo is able to inflate the price and sell the bike on Mystique.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Maybe everyone is missing the point. Cervelo doesn't think they are worth the price either. UCI rules state that whatever the pros ride must be available to the public. Maybe Cervelo doesn't want to sell any of these and could put a 50 grand price tag on them if they wanted. Maybe they figuered 10 was enough to not have to produce any for the public and fulfill the rule, but if someone really had to have one, well.


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## Minjin (Jan 9, 2007)

This thread should be renamed "Envy: why we hate people with more money than us".


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

'Cuz people who are grotesquely wealthy have it _so_ hard in this world.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

They say on their website that their engineers are building it, not normal production. If this is true, the cost in coffee alone must be enormous.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

I know this has been covered over and over but just to add something, my LBS owner told me that Cervelo produced the R5ca and really the R5 not to sell but as a way to learn how to make the best frame that the majority of the public would actually purchase...the R3. Just my little addition to this!


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## peedee (Dec 2, 2010)

Minjin said:


> This thread should be renamed "Envy: why we hate people with more money than us".


Exactly!!!!!!!! .......... and cue the music .............


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

T K said:


> Maybe everyone is missing the point. Cervelo doesn't think they are worth the price either. UCI rules state that whatever the pros ride must be available to the public. Maybe Cervelo doesn't want to sell any of these and could put a 50 grand price tag on them if they wanted. Maybe they figuered 10 was enough to not have to produce any for the public and fulfill the rule, but if someone really had to have one, well.


No pros are riding this. The test team is riding S3s and Basso is/was riding a standard R5.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Kontact said:


> No pros are riding this. The test team is riding S3s and Basso is/was riding a standard R5.


a few of them are riding R5CA frames, including vandevelde at tour de suisse.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/bikes-and-tech/ask-nick-special-edition-vande-velde-gets-a-pricey-new-bike_179072


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> a few of them are riding R5CA frames, including vandevelde at tour de suisse.
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/bikes-and-tech/ask-nick-special-edition-vande-velde-gets-a-pricey-new-bike_179072


Oop, my mistake. Thanks for the update.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

the actual 'engineers' don't put the frames together, but they supervise the guys that do. from what i saw and was told when i was there, only 3 guys actually put carbon pieces together. 2 guys do front triangles, and 1 guy does rear ends. there a a bunch of finishing steps, and 1 guy does each step. it's technically a production line, but it's definitely one-at-a-time. it was pretty cool to see the whole process from start to finish.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Minjin said:


> This thread should be renamed "Envy: why we hate people with more money than us".


No. Why some people spend stupid money on silly stuff.
I for one do not think spending big bucks on a bike is silly, if you are an avid rider. I spend about an hour a day in my truck (F350) but 2-4 hours a day on my bike (caad 9). So, I could spend 10 grand on a bike and still feel like I'm getting my monies worth. My wife would kill me but, just sayin'.
Wedding dresses 5, 10, 15 grand on somthing that will be worn once? Now that is freaking stupid!!!!


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

"A fool and his money are soon parted"

"A sucker is born every minute"

That being said, I just bought a Time frame, because I have a Trek.  Funny thing is I was on a ride this weekend and passed a guy on a climb riding a similar Time while I was still on my ole 5900... It may turn out that I too am a fool.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Kontact said:


> No pros are riding this. The test team is riding S3s and Basso is/was riding a standard R5.


No, Basso is riding a SuperSix


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Kontact said:


> No pros are riding this. The test team is riding S3s and Basso is/was riding a standard R5.


You certainly are clever, Basso hasn't ridden Cervelo since 2006 so the R5ca didn't exist.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> You certainly are clever, Basso hasn't ridden Cervelo since 2006 so the R5ca didn't exist.


I am neither clever nor stupid - just mistaken. I recall reading that the Cervelo team leader was riding a production R5, which came about at about the same time as the R5CA. I was mistaken and already acknowledged that.

But I really am not going to sweat it either way, or worry about my cleverness. Thanks for your valuable input.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Kontact said:


> I am neither clever nor stupid - just mistaken. I recall reading that the Cervelo team leader was riding a production R5, which came about at about the same time as the R5CA. I was mistaken and already acknowledged that.
> 
> But I really am not going to sweat it either way, or worry about my cleverness. Thanks for your valuable input.


Considering Basso hasn't been on a cervelo since somewhere around 2006 I'd say you were trying to appear "cute" and "correct". You've succeeded in neither.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

As I'm sure many people have, I've noticed an roughly inverse correlation on my club rides between the strength of the rider and the cost of their bikes. The strongest guys are on beat up alloy frames with Neuvation wheels and Rival and the chubby, slow dentists who get dropped after 5 miles are on custom painted C59s with 404s and Di2 (these are both actual examples). IMO, as long as it's somewhat reasonable, the bike is maybe 5% of the speed of the rider. Spending more than about $2500 on a new bike is only going to yield very, very marginal improvements (maybe no improvement on a group ride).

However, I can't really fault anyone who has the cash and wants to spend it on a bike no matter how ridiculously overspeced it is. Bikes are cool and anyone who loves cycling can't be all bad. If I had the cash, I'd definitely get a Storck and some Madfibers. IMO, there are far worse ways to spend money. Also, in the grand scheme of things, even the most expensive bikes aren't as costly as many, many other types of conspicuous consumption.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Kontact said:


> I am neither clever nor stupid - just mistaken. I recall reading that the Cervelo team leader was riding a production R5, which came about at about the same time as the R5CA. I was mistaken and already acknowledged that.
> 
> But I really am not going to sweat it either way, or worry about my cleverness. Thanks for your valuable input.


My input was valuable as you have been trying to come off as the authority on what constitutes value in a bike and whether the R5ca is worth it, and then used Basso not riding one as an example. You're right, he rides a Cannondale Super Six Hi-Mod EVO but he hasn't been affiliated with Cervelo in years. According to your baseless theories Ferrari, Bentley, anybody buying a $5M home, or a 100 foot yacht is committing a stupid act, apparently because they can afford it and you can't. It's called class envy...


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Hiro11 said:


> As I'm sure many people have, I've noticed an roughly inverse correlation on my club rides between the strength of the rider and the cost of their bikes. The strongest guys are on beat up alloy frames with Neuvation wheels and Rival and the chubby, slow dentists who get dropped after 5 miles are on custom painted C59s with 404s and Di2 (these are both actual examples). IMO, as long as it's somewhat reasonable, the bike is maybe 5% of the speed of the rider. Spending more than about $2500 on a new bike is only going to yield very, very marginal improvements (maybe no improvement on a group ride).



+1. And that's the harsh truth of it... while you can buy speed, you sure can't buy very much of it. 

Either you can make a lot of watts, or you can't, and if you can't, you're not going to be terribly fast no matter what you ride (short of a fully-faired HPV).

Fitness level is most of it, and fit/position is most of the rest.
The bike, unless you're upgrading from something absolutely awful, is only a small fraction. 

But the marketing tries very hard to make us to think otherwise. Gee, wonder why? :lol:

That said, it's your money. If you want to shell out a bunch of it for what one would charitably term small performance gains, knock yourself out. 

I say this as someone who can afford such bikes, so no, envy doesn't enter into it... more a sober assessment of what one's dollars can and cannot buy.
.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

AvantDale said:


> Whats would be more fun at the track...a Honda Civic or a BMW?
> 
> If you go by that argument why not just get a Walmart bike...it'll get you up that hill too.
> 
> I've had both cars...and its not the Civic.


Sorry, that can be debatable. Have you seen, drove/ridden in a tricked out Civic?

I thought not.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> My input was valuable as you have been trying to come off as the authority on what constitutes value in a bike and whether the R5ca is worth it, and then used Basso not riding one as an example. You're right, he rides a Cannondale Super Six Hi-Mod EVO but he hasn't been affiliated with Cervelo in years. According to your baseless theories Ferrari, Bentley, anybody buying a $5M home, or a 100 foot yacht is committing a stupid act, apparently because they can afford it and you can't. It's called class envy...


This is the article I was referring to:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pro-bike-carlos-sastres-cervelo-testteam-cervelo-r5-26918/

I had mixed up the names of the team leaders, not the content of the article. Apologies to Carlos Sastre.


You don't seem to understand any of the points I was making previously. This isn't a Ferrarai. It is a $100,000 Honda or a $5mil ranch home in Alabama. I'm all for Ferarris, Serottas, Sachs, Parlee Z1s, Crumptons and other custom built dream machines. I'm also for Cannondales, Kestrels, Cervelos, Parlee Z4s and other great production bikes. This bike falls into the second category by design and manufacture while exceeding the first in price. If that mismatch pleases you, go for it. I work at a Cervelo dealer and can afford one - but there is nothing about it that would cause me to spend even half the retail price on one - except perhaps to sell it at a profit to one of my "betters".

For the record, this isn't much sillier than some Colnago pricing. But at least you get a Colnago, rather than the flagship of a young company that admits they are still figuring out road geometry and can't support the "innovations" they introduce. Calling them about BBright adapters is frustrating beyond belief.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Ask any casual (emphasis on casual) which bike they'd rather have, Colnago vs. Cervelo, and I'd wager that the majority would say the Cervelo.

Advertising and having your name on a team jersey (Cervelo Test Team, Garmin Cervelo) means more to more people these days than quality, heritage or construction.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Kontact said:


> You don't seem to understand any of the points I was making previously. This isn't a Ferrarai. It is a $100,000 Honda or a $5mil ranch home in Alabama. I work at a Cervelo dealer and can afford one


Not trying to pick a fight, but.
A. Have you ridden one? How do you know it's not a Ferrari.
B. You work at a bike shop and can afford one? Tomorrow there is going to be a line in front of the shop you work at with every bike mech from 5 states away asking for job apps.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

T K said:


> Not trying to pick a fight, but.
> A. Have you ridden one? How do you know it's not a Ferrari.
> B. You work at a bike shop and can afford one? Tomorrow there is going to be a line in front of the shop you work at with every bike mech from 5 states away asking for job apps.


Cervelo advertises that the R3, R5 and R5CA ride the same and are only different in weight.

You might also note that I have a bike seat company. Don't assume that someone who enjoys their bike shop job has always done that or it's their only source of funds.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Kontact said:


> This is the article I was referring to:
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pro-bike-carlos-sastres-cervelo-testteam-cervelo-r5-26918/
> 
> ...


You are quite humorous, as value is established by the person seeking an item and not by Kontact telling an individual what their perceived value should be... Parlee made sailboats so how does this qualify him any more than Vroomen and White to make a bike? Lamborghini was born when a maker of farm equipment got p_ssed off at Ferrari, so is it worth less because of the industrial heritage as opposed to the racing heritage of Ferrari? A Corvette Z06 offers better performance than many cars priced above it, so which is the supercar? For 200 people out there that R5ca is gonna be the baddest bike available, I doubt they care what you think. And for the record I don't have one, don't plan on getting one, and not interested in it. I just find it humorous when something new is introduced there is a certain contingent telling everybody else it's too expensive.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> You are quite humorous, as value is established by the person seeking an item and not by Kontact telling an individual what their perceived value should be... Parlee made sailboats so how does this qualify him any more than Vroomen and White to make a bike? Lamborghini was born when a maker of farm equipment got p_ssed off at Ferrari, so is it worth less because of the industrial heritage as opposed to the racing heritage of Ferrari? A Corvette Z06 offers better performance than many cars priced above it, so which is the supercar? For 200 people out there that R5ca is gonna be the baddest bike available, I doubt they care what you think. And for the record I don't have one, don't plan on getting one, and not interested in it. I just find it humorous when something new is introduced there is a certain contingent telling everybody else it's too expensive.


It strikes me that you seem to think this is all a matter of opinion, yet seem upset that I have expressed one. This thread was conceived as an opinion piece; I shared mine.

Like I said, if you want one, go for it. I really don't mind. I don't think the buyers are stupid or anything like that. I just think the pricing reflects a premium that can only appeal to someone who values the exclusivity rather than the actual frame. Which is okay by me.


I realize you post on this forum looking to pick fights, but I'm not interested in one.


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

A Pake Fixie with generic wheels and build is probably more fun than the Cavalo Poo3 edition, you can ride the crap out of it, and not worry about it getting scratched up and cracked up when going for your skinny double-shot non-caffeinated organic latte with the other Dentist.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> "A fool and his money are soon parted"
> 
> "A sucker is born every minute"



=> "A customer is born every minute."


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## solirossi (Jun 16, 2011)

THis has been a great read. Plenty of varied tangents and points that all make sense to a degree.

Regards the OP, is it worth it? To answer that you have to define what 'worth it' means. Perhaps it is worth it to some and not to others. To answer it in relation to it being a bike frame, then it would be a resounding No from me. $10k for a frame is crazy. Id perhaps explain that by looking at what components you put with it. Lets say you put sora and some r500 wheels onto it. How will it ride compared to say a $8k fully built S3 Tarmac with Zipp and DA7900? Im guessing the Specilized would be a much better and faster bike to ride.

The other factor that makes this argument different from a Ferrari and a Civic is that there is tangible difference in performance. There is alot more HP avaliable in the Ferrari. The thing with bikes is its you that create the HP. If your slow on a $2k Scott with 105 you will be slow on a $17k CA with Red and 404's. I learnt this when I went from my MTB to my first roadie, I was thinking heck this is gonna be great, ill be really quick, yeah well it wasnt the case.

If brand is really important and bling factor, and as an individual you value exclusivity etc... then id probably suggest that yeah its worth it. But I dare say the OP's question of 'is it worth it' was more in relation to a bikes normal function and its ability to increase your speed over a certain climb or ride. So once again, my uneducated opinion is no its not worth the dollars if its performance you are looking for.


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