# Dr. Allen Lim



## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

Fraud or incompetent?


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Not incompetent. A fraud perhaps. Maybe it was a blessing in disguise for Garmin when he left.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Dwaynebarry said:


> Fraud or incompetent?


Is "all of the above" an option?


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## rideorglide (Dec 3, 2005)

Embodiment of a sham is another descriptor option


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

And shall we conclude that "training with power" 'tis but a gauzy camoflage?


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Allen Lim isn't even a doctor.

My vote is both. Both fraud and incompetent. Probably more fraud though.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

But Bicycling has big article on him!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

rook said:


> Allen Lim isn't even a doctor.
> 
> My vote is both. Both fraud and incompetent. Probably more fraud though.


He has a PhD so yes he is. 
he is not a medical doctor.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

danl1 said:


> And shall we conclude that "training with power" 'tis but a gauzy camoflage?


"Training with powder" fixed:aureola:


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Wait, are you saying Garmin is a team of dopers then? All of them? Most of them? So Vaughters was an anti-doping fraud? Who exactly are you accusing Lim of doping? CVV? DZ? Wiggo? Maybe even Millar? 

/ please don't make me defend Garmin.
// not sure I could handle two days of it.


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## Rex Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> Wait, are you saying Garmin is a team of dopers then? All of them? Most of them? So Vaughters was an anti-doping fraud? Who exactly are you accusing Lim of doping? CVV? DZ? Wiggo? Maybe even Millar?
> 
> / please don't make me defend Garmin.
> // not sure I could handle two days of it.


These people who hate Armstrong don't even like the cleaner teams like Garmin and Sky. They couldn't give a toss about cleaning up the sport. They're such hypocrites.


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## 3rensho (Aug 26, 2003)

Rex, 

I'm someone who hates Armstrong as a racer. I love the purportedly clean teams like Garmin, Sky, etc. 

In fact, I care SO much about the sport that I don't support teams that seem to have a history of harboring dopers. Tyler, Floyd, and Heras didn't just decide to start cheating when they left Lance's team. This is why I'd never support RadioShack and why I view two of my favorite racers EVER with some suspicion (Levi and Horner).

Who's worse for the sport? Brunyeel or Vaughters? 

Which DS is affiliated with more dopers? 

Which teams gave up independent testing first? Seems like a lot of these teams were quick to say "the BioPassport will handle this, we won't need any independent verification" while guilty riders say that the same program is a joke. Seems like an easy way to keep credibility while setting the riders up to 'compete' with the rest of the teams.


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

Lim had a blog on the Bicycling.com website during the 06 tour on which he enthusiastically recounted meeting with Floyd the morning before he went on his escapade. He would have us believe that he oversaw Floyd's training that year and met with him on a near daily basis, but did not know of any drug use.

Sorry, dude. Not buying it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

3rensho said:


> Who's worse for the sport? Brunyeel or Vaughters?


well, both were dopers as pro cyclists, Bruyneel on maybe the dirtiest team ever, PDM of the 90s, Vaughters admitting in that famous text session with Andreu. Both now insist they are running squeaky clean programs - a real commitment to anti-doping or just really slick PR? The Lim-Garmin association is troubling if the accusations against him stick. Makes you wonder why Armstrong would spend a fortune to get him - lots of money if he is just pouring water over your head.

Also, Lim showed up with Landis at one of our local training races a few years back (Landis was still suspended but training for a comeback). They were getting some power numbers - so it's not like Lim cut all ties with Landis after the suspension...


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Rex Hunter said:


> These people who hate Armstrong don't even like the cleaner teams like Garmin and Sky. They couldn't give a toss about cleaning up the sport. They're such hypocrites.



Yeah, I hate Garmin. Whatever dude....


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

Wow! I hope that most of you never serve on a jury.

It's entirely possible to work closely with a person and not know everything about them. I worked very closely with a co-worker on several projects. Despite daily interactions and a personal friendship that developed, I had no idea that he was cheating on his wife. My spouse and I socialized, went on family outings, watched each other's kids, etc. When his infidelity was exposed, I was nearly as shocked as his spouse as I had no idea. So, does that mean that I am complicit in his adultery since I should have been looking for and seen signs of it?

The point? Just because a guy is a team or personal consultant looking at power numbers, core temps, and whatnot doesn't necessarily mean that he is in the true inner circle or that he knows what happens when Rder X retreats to his hotel suite. If you can fool the UCI/WADA then you could also fool an individual. It also would not surprise me that teams hire doctors / consultants that are above reproach as a front to shield certain off-the-books practices. In any case, let the evidence, if there is any, play out before condemning any team, DS, doctor, or official.

The sport has massive doping problems but this place is cynical. I should leave before I start believing that anyone that beats me in a Masters 4/5 race must obviously be doping and I'm the last clean and virtuous rider on Earth.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Lazy Spinner said:


> The sport has massive doping problems but this place is cynical. I should leave before I start believing that anyone that beats me in a Masters 4/5 race must obviously be doping and I'm the last clean and virtuous rider on Earth.


Coincidentally, Bicycling had an article on that, too. There's apparently quite a bit of doping going on amongst rank amateurs.

I think you're right overall though - Believing Landis on Lim isn't exactly solid proof. On the other hand, what exactly was in that little bottle of 'essential amino extract' or whatever that he put in those famous rice cakes? 

Just to say, he's slightly more than a consultant. And while he might possibly not 'know' in the sense of watching them shoot up, he'd 'know' from the data he's seeing. He could be on the up-and-up, but in at least the case of FL, he'd have to knowingly turn a blind eye. That is, if he's vaguely competent at his public-persona expertise. 

And that's not at all an indictment of Garmin - he could very well offer 'clean' services to them, and something more questionable elsewhere.


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

Lazy Spinner said:


> Wow! I hope that most of you never serve on a jury.
> 
> It's entirely possible to work closely with a person and not know everything about them. I worked very closely with a co-worker on several projects. Despite daily interactions and a personal friendship that developed, I had no idea that he was cheating on his wife. My spouse and I socialized, went on family outings, watched each other's kids, etc. When his infidelity was exposed, I was nearly as shocked as his spouse as I had no idea. So, does that mean that I am complicit in his adultery since I should have been looking for and seen signs of it?
> 
> ...



You're right that I am cynical about pro cycling. My defense is pro cycling's track record. Regarding Lim, he was not just 'working closely' with Landis in the way you worked closely with your colleague: he was closely monitoring Floyd's physiology. That was his job. I do not think your analogy is apt. I suppose it's not impossible that Floyd deceived Lim, but it seems very unlikely.

For the record, I believe a number of riders and team staff have been making a concerted effort to stay clean in recent years, and Lim may be one of these. I just don't buy his story about Landis, and his claim that he would never work with someone who doped.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Allen Lim:


> All I’ll say is that 6.7 watts per kg at threshold is not physiological or humanly possible, unless you’re a hybrid human horse or a grey hound human dog or another species. I don’t even think Frankenstein could hold 6.7 watts per kg at threshold. Though, I must say that, unlike most artificially manipulated creatures of science, Frankenstein did have a uniquely low carbon footprint as he was made of recycled body parts and was activated with a clean bolt of lightning. But that’s a totally different story.


Quote from TdF blog:


> In Lance Armstrong's War, Daniel Coyle quotes Michele Ferrari that shortly before the 2004 Tour, Armstrong was 74 kgs and 493 watts (that's at lactate threshold, which the lab measured at 6.1 liters/minute in 1993). Ferrari told Coyle the “magic number” for Tour contenders is 6.7 watts per kilogram of body weight.


Now Allen Lim is working for Lance. He is either in serious denial or actively helping riders dope.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Lets keep the forum clean for the personal stuff- stick to the points, there obviously is enough here to debate on the merits. Disagreements are fine (and frankly to be expected) but repeat offenders will be dealt with accordingly. 

/ back to the fun.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

farm said:


> You're right that I am cynical about pro cycling. My defense is pro cycling's track record. Regarding Lim, he was not just 'working closely' with Landis in the way you worked closely with your colleague: he was closely monitoring Floyd's physiology. That was his job. I do not think your analogy is apt. I suppose it's not impossible that Floyd deceived Lim, but it seems very unlikely.
> 
> For the record, I believe a number of riders and team staff have been making a concerted effort to stay clean in recent years, and Lim may be one of these. I just don't buy his story about Landis, and his claim that he would never work with someone who doped.


Lim had/has a business selling his training methodologies and coaching services. Just like Chris Carmichael. These two will be more than happy to report how close their relationship was with the winners. But when the winner is proven to not be so clean or straightforward after all, all these claims come back to bite them. 

There's a great part in "Armstrong's War" where the author asked Landis (of all people) in 2005 who Lance's real coach was: Ferrari or Carmichael. Landis just snickered and said, you've heard both of them talk, who do YOU think is the real coach? It's a great book that puts a lot of these "new" allegations in perspective.


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## Dwaynebarry (Mar 16, 2004)

There's a video interview up now with Lim, certainly doesn't seem like a guy with nothing to worry about or a guy who's telling the truth.

http://video.bicycling.com/video/ATOC-Allen-Lim-addresses-allega


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## worst_shot_ever (Jul 27, 2009)

Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to follow his lawyers' instructions: client, you may speak to the press but must restrict yourself to these two talking points -- (i) the allegations speak for themselves (i.e., Landis is a crazy person, just look at his writing style in those emails), and (ii) I would never work for an athlete who I knew was taking PEDs. It is hard tosay whether his obvious lack of comfort is thus the result of (i) the uncomfortable situation he is in even if he is totally innocent of any illicit knowledge (e.g., he does have something to worry about even if he is innocent, as people may wrongly conclude he's not), (ii) his desire to say more but his inability to do so because of the instructions laid down by his legal advisors, or (iii) a guilty conscience, meaning he either has guilty knowledge or at least knows he was wilfully blind about Landis. He's in a tough situation, so on body language, I cut him some slack.


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## atimido (Jun 17, 2009)

farm said:


> Lim had a blog on the Bicycling.com website during the 06 tour on which he enthusiastically recounted meeting with Floyd the morning before he went on his escapade. He would have us believe that he oversaw Floyd's training that year and met with him on a near daily basis, but did not know of any drug use.
> 
> Sorry, dude. Not buying it.


You know, I was kind of thinking the same thing about Hincapie. 

Hincapie was Landis's roommate, correct? And if what Landis is admitting is true, don't you think Hincapie would have known? I mean c'mon, roommates talk and often times things come up in conversation that you wouldn't tell the regular gent on the street, or you see things that not everybody else gets to see. 

If Hincapie wasn't involved, why wouldn't he say anything?


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

orange_julius said:


> Lim had/has a business selling his training methodologies and coaching services. Just like Chris Carmichael. These two will be more than happy to report how close their relationship was with the winners. But when the winner is proven to not be so clean or straightforward after all, all these claims come back to bite them.
> 
> There's a great part in "Armstrong's War" where the author asked Landis (of all people) in 2005 who Lance's real coach was: Ferrari or Carmichael. Landis just snickered and said, you've heard both of them talk, who do YOU think is the real coach? It's a great book that puts a lot of these "new" allegations in perspective.


+1 on Dan Coyle's "Lance Armstrong's War." Best book I've read on pro cycling. I especially remember that exchange. Coyle's recently written on the RAAM, and was interviewed for an excellent Radiolab program on human limits.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

atimido said:


> You know, I was kind of thinking the same thing about Hincapie.
> 
> Hincapie was Landis's roommate, correct? And if what Landis is admitting is true, don't you think Hincapie would have known? I mean c'mon, roommates talk and often times things come up in conversation that you wouldn't tell the regular gent on the street, or you see things that not everybody else gets to see.
> 
> If Hincapie wasn't involved, why wouldn't he say anything?


Um to protect his livelihood, reputation etc....


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

farm said:


> +1 on Dan Coyle's "Lance Armstrong's War." Best book I've read on pro cycling. I especially remember that exchange. Coyle's recently written on the RAAM, and was interviewed for an excellent Radiolab program on human limits.



Rrrright! Hahaha.

Coyle is a tool. He plagiarized most of his work, and the research he used to prove his data was statistically invalid and has already been outed as such. Peer-reviewed journals have already debunked his clinical data and stated that the non-truths he used in supporting his claims were not only unscientific, but unethical.

Like Lim, Coyle is just another glad-to-know-Armstrong wannabe. All fraud. At least, Lim is a doctor...um wait a minute. Lim isn't even a real doctor! Not in the sense of a medical doctor like Dr. Michele Ferrari. I suppose these other so-called doctors (like Lim) are cheaper on the Livestrong budget than the old EPO doctor.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Dwaynebarry said:


> There's a video interview up now with Lim, certainly doesn't seem like a guy with nothing to worry about or a guy who's telling the truth.
> 
> http://video.bicycling.com/video/ATOC-Allen-Lim-addresses-allega


He looks terrified. He should've made rice cakes for the reporters.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

rook said:


> Rrrright! Hahaha.
> 
> Coyle is a tool. He plagiarized most of his work, and the research he used to prove his data was statistically invalid and has already been outed as such. Peer-reviewed journals have already debunked his clinical data and stated that the non-truths he used in supporting his claims were not only unscientific, but unethical.
> 
> Like Lim, Coyle is just another glad-to-know-Armstrong wannabe. All fraud. At least, Lim is a doctor...um wait a minute. Lim isn't even a real doctor! Not in the sense of a medical doctor like Dr. Michele Ferrari. I suppose these other so-called doctors (like Lim) are cheaper on the Livestrong budget than the old EPO doctor.


It's a different Coyle. Dan Coyle wrote the excellent book, Edward Coyle did the half-baked study.


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

SilasCL said:


> It's a different Coyle. Dan Coyle wrote the excellent book, Edward Coyle did the half-baked study.


Thanks for the clarification. I was totally surprised and confused by rook's post, and was about ready to get all defensive. At any rate, one of the things that make's Dan Coyle's book so good is he is a dispassionate observer, which is unusual in the genre.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

rook said:


> Coyle is a tool. He plagiarized most of his work, and the research he used to prove his data was statistically invalid and has already been outed as such. Peer-reviewed journals have already debunked his clinical data and stated that the non-truths he used in supporting his claims were not only unscientific, but unethical.


The depth of your understanding is unfathomable.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

SilasCL said:


> It's a different Coyle. Dan Coyle wrote the excellent book, Edward Coyle did the half-baked study.


Oops.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

worst_shot_ever said:


> Sounds to me like a guy who is trying to follow his lawyers' instructions: client, you may speak to the press but must restrict yourself to these two talking points -- (i) the allegations speak for themselves (i.e., Landis is a crazy person, just look at his writing style in those emails), and (ii) I would never work for an athlete who I knew was taking PEDs. It is hard tosay whether his obvious lack of comfort is thus the result of (i) the uncomfortable situation he is in even if he is totally innocent of any illicit knowledge (e.g., he does have something to worry about even if he is innocent, as people may wrongly conclude he's not), (ii) his desire to say more but his inability to do so because of the instructions laid down by his legal advisors, or (iii) a guilty conscience, meaning he either has guilty knowledge or at least knows he was wilfully blind about Landis. He's in a tough situation, so on body language, I cut him some slack.


+1

Everybody except for Landis are in damage control mode right now. It is fun to watch somebody who was more than glad to advertise his allegedly very close relationship with Landis, now have to back-pedal without appearing overtly to do so. 

As the saying goes, "success never lacks claiming parents," or something like that. 

For those bringing up the fact that Lim has a PhD and not an MD, I don't think he has overreached his professional authority. Maybe he leaves things a bit vague, but PhDs do have the right to call themselves "Dr" in the US. Whereas for example JDs customarily do not.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

orange_julius said:


> . Whereas for example JDs customarily do not.


JD's would used "Esq. or Esquire" if they wanted a silly title. Haven't seen anyone under 70 or not starring in Bill and Ted Excellent Adventure actually do so.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

orange_julius said:


> +1
> 
> Everybody except for Landis are in damage control mode right now. It is fun to watch somebody who was more than glad to advertise his allegedly very close relationship with Landis, now have to back-pedal without appearing overtly to do so.
> 
> ...


Because they aren't doctors, that is a self-styled and self-appointed degree (prior to the creation of the JD, a law degree was basically a master's degree). Lawyers had their panties in a bunch that they weren't professionally as important as doctors. And they still aren't... But they can all thump their chests with that JD while wasting everybody's time and money that they come into contact with, that's guaranteed.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

My bad. I did get the two Coyle's confused. One Coyle did some research. The other wrote a book.


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## atimido (Jun 17, 2009)

rubbersoul said:


> Um to protect his livelihood, reputation etc....


Whose reputation, Floyd's or Hincapie's? 

How would Hincapie's reputation be ruined if he "ratted" Floyd out for doping? The only people that would be pissed would be other dopers.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

orange_julius said:


> +1
> 
> Everybody except for Landis are in damage control mode right now. It is fun to watch somebody who was more than glad to advertise his allegedly very close relationship with Landis, now have to back-pedal without appearing overtly to do so.
> 
> ...



Success has many fathers, failure but one...


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

DZfan14 said:


> Success has many fathers, failure but one...


That's the one, thanks!

All this reminds me of the Riis-Basso relationship in 2005 and 2006, with Riis saying that Basso was like a son to him. As soon as Basso was caught "thinking of" using Fuentes' blood bags, Riis backpedaled so furiously he could have set the world record for indoor rowing. All this after Riis said that he talked to Basso every day, and so on and so forth. 

http://www.akinde.dk/michael/archive/ivanbasso.net/?paged=2

_“I will meet Bjarne on monday. As expected, it is not easy to put the pieces of the puzzle together again. It has been hard. Definitely. We have not spoken together for four months. Before this, we spoke together every day,” says Basso._


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*LMAO at the hypocrosy*

wrong thread


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Coolhand said:


> JD's would used "Esq. or Esquire" if they wanted a silly title. Haven't seen anyone under 70 or not starring in Bill and Ted Excellent Adventure actually do so.


On the increasingly rare occasions when I actually post a letter to another (U.S.) attorney, I give them the courtesy of the silly title. I am suspicious of attorneys who use the silly title in respect of themselves. However, in some European countries (and possibly elsewhere), it's customary for attorneys to be addressed (and identify themselves) with "Doctor."


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Undecided said:


> On the increasingly rare occasions when I actually post a letter to another (U.S.) attorney, I give them the courtesy of the silly title. I am suspicious of attorneys who use the silly title in respect of themselves. However, in some European countries (and possibly elsewhere), it's customary for attorneys to be addressed (and identify themselves) with "Doctor."


Equally silly of course. However, the powered white wigs are still kind of cool. I think Law and Order would be more interesting if we made the fake lawyers wear them. . .


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

den bakker said:


> He has a PhD so yes he is.
> he is not a medical doctor.


Dr. Allen Lim has always come across as a little sleazy to me.

I always found it smarmy how he referenced himself as "Dr. Allen Lim." ATMO, it came off like he was trying to be taken for an MD, a "real" doctor.

And I say this as someone with a PhD.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Dwaynebarry said:


> There's a video interview up now with Lim, certainly doesn't seem like a guy with nothing to worry about or a guy who's telling the truth.
> 
> http://video.bicycling.com/video/ATOC-Allen-Lim-addresses-allega


he does look shaken up. Which is exactly how a guilty person would react, but also exactly how an innocent person would react.

*IF* Lim was truly involved in doping, and combined with revelations about Zabriskie, plus the whole Zirbel disaster earlier this year, this puts the spotlight on the whole Garmin team and Vaughters personally. I certainly hope this is not the case, but as a cynical person who thinks vast majority of cyclists (or most top pro athletes for that matter) get some *help* from chemistry, there is special irony if Garmin, despite their anti-doping stance, was in fact no better than other teams out there.


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

I was curious if Lim went to RS to see for himself if Lance could prove the part-horse/greyhound theory as a 4-sigma outlier to the 6.7 w/kg.

NYVelocity stated that Lim won't respond to their emails now - great As the Toto turns today on this: http://nyvelocity.com/content/toto/2010/toto-turns-185


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## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

Dwaynebarry said:


> There's a video interview up now with Lim, certainly doesn't seem like a guy with nothing to worry about or a guy who's telling the truth.
> 
> http://video.bicycling.com/video/ATOC-Allen-Lim-addresses-allega


They were grilling him pretty good. He seemed a little dodgy.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

TedH said:


> I was curious if Lim went to RS to see for himself if Lance could prove the part-horse/greyhound theory as a 4-sigma outlier to the 6.7 w/kg.
> 
> NYVelocity stated that Lim won't respond to their emails now - great As the Toto turns today on this: http://nyvelocity.com/content/toto/2010/toto-turns-185


Wow, someone other that that guy's mother still reads that site?


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

SilasCL said:


> He looks terrified. He should've made rice cakes for the reporters.


That would have been a good time to stuff a Twix in his mouth like on the commercials. 


OMG! He completely avoided questions and had no answers all the while stumbling and fumbling over his thoughts which wouldn't materialize into anything but "uhhm," and "uhh."

Whether the accusations are true or not, he's a liability to the Armstrong camp when he's in the hot seat.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

55x11 said:


> he does look shaken up. Which is exactly how a guilty person would react, but also exactly how an innocent person would react.
> 
> *IF* Lim was truly involved in doping, and combined with revelations about Zabriskie, plus the whole Zirbel disaster earlier this year, this puts the spotlight on the whole Garmin team and Vaughters personally. I certainly hope this is not the case, but as a cynical person who thinks vast majority of cyclists (or most top pro athletes for that matter) get some *help* from chemistry, *there is special irony if Garmin, despite their anti-doping stance, was in fact no better than other teams out there.*


And that would bother me the most... If I heard C VdV was a doper, I'd cry myself to sleep for weeks.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

MaddSkillz said:


> And that would bother me the most... If I heard C VdV was a doper, I'd cry myself to sleep for weeks.


You might have a look at his employment history (teams). Not an accusation, just saying..


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

davidka said:


> You might have a look at his employment history (teams). Not an accusation, just saying..


 I agree. By "ironic" I mean it would be both "sad ironic" and "interesting ironic". I forgot to mention Matt White was among people mentioned by Landis too.


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

Yeah, what a charlatan. Here is one of his crazy ideas. . . .

"Anyway, my two cents on a diet for the non-pro endurance athlete is really simple. Eat mostly whole foods with a lot of color that you have to cook, and stay away from processed stuff that comes out of a package. If you're shopping for fresh foods from local markets, and you are spending time actually cooking, then you're way ahead of the curve."

Quackery!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

JohnHemlock said:


> Yeah, what a charlatan. Here is one of his crazy ideas. . . .
> 
> "Anyway, my two cents on a diet for the non-pro endurance athlete is really simple. Eat mostly whole foods with a lot of color that you have to cook, and stay away from processed stuff that comes out of a package. If you're shopping for fresh foods from local markets, and you are spending time actually cooking, then you're way ahead of the curve."
> 
> Quackery!


yeah, but would you pay him six figures annually for that advice?


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