# Here's a training question for everyone



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Hypothetical. Think of it as a test. I'll post what I would do probably in a few days.

Two seasoned racers are training for a huge, one-day race. Like the World Championship RR, there are no epic climbs, but it does have a 0.75 mile, 8% grade climb once per lap over 90mi. It finishes on the top of this 7min climb. Last year's winner had an FTP of ~350w at ~155lbs: 5w/kg + 0.4w/kg. This year's winner was 5'10", 155lbs, unknown FTP.

It's typically won through pure attrition. The likes of Valverde, Cunego, or DiLuca would love this race. It's treacherous, requires a lot of punch and anaerobic capacity, and will drop both sprinters and climbers alike.

There are two people you are training, both targeting a win at this race. Polar opposites: one is a phenomenal climber, and the other a phenomenal sprinter. Both are guest riders in this pro race and out of their league, just 7 months out from the race.

Climber:

can drop many cat1s on 7+min climbs, but sprints like a cat3/4
can't move around well in the pack
does extremely well in long, hard, hot, painful races
FTP at 300

Sprinter:

excellent at flat races, and long, hard, hot, painful races
can out-sprint many cat1s, but climbs like a cat3/4
can read most races almost perfectly
FTP at 300

Obviously, both need to work on w/kg, one needs more anaerobic capacity and another needs more VO2work. In your opinion, what is the best way to train these athletes for a 1-2 finish? If successful, this would look great on your coaching resume, potentially earning you a lot (more) money.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

iliveonnitro said:


> Two seasoned racers are training for a huge, one-day race. Like the World Championship RR, there are no epic climbs, but it does have a 0.75 mile, 8% grade climb once per lap over 90mi. It finishes on the top of this 7min climb.


How many laps equals 90 miles, i.e., how many trips up the hill?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Undecided said:


> How many laps equals 90 miles, i.e., how many trips up the hill?


Assume 5-6.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

iliveonnitro said:


> there are no epic climbs, but it does have a 0.75 mile, 8% grade climb once per lap over 90mi. It finishes on the top of this 7min climb.


Thats pretty slow time for a 7min climb! .75 mile? thats just over 6mph for .75 mile at 8%..very sluggish!

or was that the test? to spot the flaw like a plane crashes on top of a hill, half of the passengers are from one side of the hill and half from the other side..so where do they bury the survivors? :idea:


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

easy. lots of threshold / tempo work, because they are going to break away together, early on, and the pro's will ignore them b/c they're not favorites, then they trade work flats v hills and the break survives FTW.

that'll be $5,000.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Creakyknees said:


> easy. lots of threshold / tempo work, because they are going to break away together, early on, and the pro's will ignore them b/c they're not favorites, then they trade work flats v hills and the break survives FTW.
> 
> that'll be $5,000.


I was chanting "Rudy! Rudy! Rudy! . . ." by the end of that paragraph.


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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

EPO, and lots of it.

There's no way either of them are anywhere near the front of this race, unless you are counting on a 15-20% increase in FTP over the next 7 months.


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## ::dyslexic:: (Jul 13, 2009)

FTP sounds quite low for professional level.


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## StillRiding (Sep 16, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> In your opinion, what is the best way to train these athletes for a 1-2 finish?


Convince them to enter a different race.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

StillRiding said:


> Convince them to enter a different race.


Or teach them Team Cinzano's methods.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

muscleendurance said:


> Thats pretty slow time for a 7min climb! .75 mile? thats just over 6mph for .75 mile at 8%..very sluggish!
> 
> or was that the test? to spot the flaw like a plane crashes on top of a hill, half of the passengers are from one side of the hill and half from the other side..so where do they bury the survivors? :idea:


You are absolutely correct. Assume time instead of distance. That's what, 2-2.5mi?

Like I said, the two riders are not pros. Most domestic pros are closer to 5w/kg. You can guess what needs to happen...

Back to the responses...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

ride lots.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> Hypothetical. Think of it as a test. I'll post what I would do probably in a few days.
> 
> Two seasoned racers are training for a huge, one-day race. Like the World Championship RR, there are no epic climbs, but it does have a 0.75 mile, 8% grade climb once per lap over 90mi. It finishes on the top of this 7min climb. Last year's winner had an FTP of ~350w at ~155lbs: 5w/kg + 0.4w/kg. This year's winner was 5'10", 155lbs, unknown FTP.
> 
> ...


insufficient data.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> insufficient data.


What more data would you like?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Time trial info?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> What more data would you like?


Their mass might be helpful to know.

Nevertheless, I probably shouldn't have said it as I'm not particularly interested in providing specific recommendations in a general advice forum.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

you need to increase their power at Vo2 Max (threshold doesnt mean squat in a race like this its only a 7min climb) they need to be able to put out full gas on each of the last few laps on the climb.

Basically they wont be able to do it


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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

muscleendurance said:


> you need to increase their power at Vo2 Max (threshold doesnt mean squat in a race like this its only a 7min climb) they need to be able to put out full gas on each of the last few laps on the climb.


You've got that mostly backwards. It's more likely that power at VO2 Max doesn't mean "squat" (although that's probably overstating it a bit). 

Unless, of course, they soft pedal everything except the climb. Or it's just a 7-minute long race.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

iktome said:


> You've got that mostly backwards. It's more likely that power at VO2 Max doesn't mean "squat" (although that's probably overstating it a bit).
> 
> Unless, of course, they soft pedal everything except the climb. Or it's just a 7-minute long race.


I meant power at Vo2 'trumps' FTP, you can have the FTP of 350w (the stated winning FTP of past years) but if your not there to make the selections (which will be a maximal Vo2 type effort, then your FTP isn't woth 'squat'


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## StillRiding (Sep 16, 2006)

The event you describe is going to be won by a strong all-around rider. Unfortunately, both of your riders are seriously one-dimensional and, in the time allotted, not likely to be able to make the increase in capacity (or changes) necessary to win, or maybe even finish. 

Of course, hope springs eternal, and a coach's primary job (contrary to what many might think) is to provide encouragement, proper motivation, and at times a kick in the pants. With that thought in mind, I'd lay out the same training program for both riders (after all, they both want to win the same race although they're coming at it from different directions, and if they can train together and urge each other on, so much the better). I'm a great believer in specificity. Train how you want to race. Since this is a race of attrition, my program would begin with lots of time on the bike riding similar terrain, maybe 4 or 5 hours per day with appropriate rest days depending on each rider's ability to recover. This is important, because just like climbing and sprinting ability, each of us has a different ability to recover. I would set periodic (monthly?) intermediate goals for improving time over the race distance (forget worrying about FTP or heart rates). If a rider makes his goals and can see progress towards the fitness required to win, it's a tremendous motivator. If he fails to make goals, then you have a good argument for trying a different race more suited to the rider's ability. (again, the coach's job is motivation) Assuming goals are met, for the last month of training, back off on the distance and work on the hill. Sharpen what you've gained, but don't dull the point. A rider, knowing he's made all the intermediate improvement necessary to be successful will be confident, and likely to extend himself to achieve things thought beyond his ability. He'll need that confidence to win. 

But then, what do I know? I'm no coach.


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## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

Do these 2 Train together and are they close enough to the course to train on it together?


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## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

And it IS ALL ABOUT FTP!

When FTP rises one will almost always see a similar % rise in AWC/V02 power as well,
there have been numerous threads on this on different forums over the years.

Increase FTP and everything around it from 4min - 6hrs WILL increase with appropiate training, on the flipside there are plenty of amature races doing epic long training rides and killing themselves with 
1 - 6min hill repeats and are still racing at the same level year after year.
Nitro as you pointed out to me recently there are plenty of Pro's who have the same absolute V02 as you but their power at V02 belittles your's and the reason is their FTP IS MUCH HIGHER than yours,
no cyclist is going to be able to put out 130% or more of their FTP repeatedly for 6min or more during a race where the pace is already close to or at their limit and doing V02/AWC till yer blue in the face won't gain you much at all.

7 mths is a hell of a long time to raise FTP, and just riding heaps building CTL ain't gunna cut it in this race!
With me as an example riding bikes for ~30yrs endurance training for last 6 yrs and now in my 4th year racing; lets say last season l had a CTL of 110 and a FTP of 260-270w with a weight of 66kg not exactly stellar l will admit but still an improvement on previous years.
December last year dissapointed with results for the season with all the work l had put in I decided no more racing unless I saw a a dramatic increase in FTP otherwise l was just gunna give up and go fishing instead of training.
For 4mths I trained every 3rd day avg 5 - 7hrs p/wk racking up 200 - 250min p/wk of L4 in the 93- 96% of FTP, NO JUNK MILES..... NONE!!!

FTP IS BASE!!!!! I'll say it again; raise this and everything around it WILL rise unless one is extremely well trained and at or very close to their genetic limits and few if any amature races ever get to that.

Every 4 - 6wks things would go a little stale in training and I'd do a block of V02 training until l saw a rise in 4 - 5min power then I'd go back to 200 - 250min p/wk of L4. as a result
l saw a ~ 9% increase in FTP and almost an identical rise in power at V02.
Fast forward another 5mths later with much the same training + a few mega hard races where l placed very high and had struggled in the same races last year, I have seen almost another 10% increse in FTP/ V02 with a MUCH lower CTL than last year with far better racing results all round and much more enjoyment during/after races.

As an example for a race like this I'll take a CTL of 60 and FT of 320w over a CTL of 110 and a FT of 265w any freakin day of the week.
Just be sure to be SUPER super fresh for this event, maybe dig a hole 9 - 14 days out and the usual taper with AWC/V02 efforts in the last week or so, you know how it goes.

Only down side to my pre-season was there was no racing and no group rides from Dec to July my one and only goal on the bike was to raise FTP
With only 5 - 7hrs p/wk it is not much volume to recover from and the intensity was low enough not to get burt out mentally, HOWEVER it WAS enough to stress MY system and force adaption....... THIS was my base!!!
Preparing for my A races needed a little more structure and there is always a trade off between volume and intensity so my hours increased to 10-12hrs p/wk leading up to priority races so a block of AWC was done with mostly tempo/SST to maintain some general endurance.

Nitro I know you are aware of the need to raise FTP in general but if these guys don't improve their FTP or are not already close to roughly the same w/kg as the winner 2 yrs ago then you and I both know that they won't carry a tune in this race..... sad but true.

I just thought I would show that one does NOT need to pile on the miles or continually work on either AWC or V02 to prepare and improve for their season as some here have tried to convince otherwise.

Let us know how they fair in this race ay


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## StillRiding (Sep 16, 2006)

FTP is a made up number derived (usually optimistically) from data taken at one specific period in time and generated by an instrument of unknown accuracy, consistency and calibration . We do not win races by comparing FTP to one another. We win races by finishing ahead of the next man. The blind worship of FTP is never the only or even the primary solution to improving performance.

I do not totally discount the value of the information provided by power meters or heart monitors, but I do place that information at a lower priority in the big scheme of things when it comes to winning bike races.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Their mass might be helpful to know.
> 
> Nevertheless, I probably shouldn't have said it as I'm not particularly interested in providing specific recommendations in a general advice forum.


No specific recommendations were asked. Climber's weight is 65kg, sprinter's is 68kg.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Train the sprinter's ability to improve and repeat efforts @ Vo2 max since he needs to withstand the trips up the hill till the end.

Train the climber to improve FTP so that he's less fatigued for the last trip up the hill.

I'm no coach so I'll leave the methods to you.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

Surely we're not looking for the answer as simple as "train the limiter"? 



Starnut


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Probably not but you've got to identify the athlete's limitations for a given event if you're going to train him to win it. You could at least contribute something to the discussion if you're going to post starnut...


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## stewie13 (Feb 5, 2005)

First, let me say I think this is a very odd question. I'm not sure I would tailor 7 months of training to prepare for a one race. Obviously the training will help for all races so why even add that to the question.

In races like these, I don't think FTP is a very accurate indicator of success. Is a guy with a W/KG of 5.1 at FTP any better off than a guy with a W/KG of 5? 

FTP is just of many factors that will determine who is successful in a race like this. I think way too many people get caught up with FTP and get lost when that doesn't turn into results.
Granted, raising FTP is basically always a good thing and specific FTP training is some of the most efficient training you can do.

In addition to what others have said, I think it is important to know if this race is just a local P/1/2 race on a hard course or a NRC level race. If it is a local race then positioning isn't as important and tactics are very important. If it is a NRC level race then positioning will be very important and you probably won't have to worry about tactics too much.

Regardless, this isn't a TT so there is much more to the race than just going as hard as you can. If the riders are serious about doing well in this race then racing in other hard road races with STRONG fields beforehand will be very important.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

The obvious, sensible answer: Coach both guys exactly the same.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

stewie13 said:


> FTP is just of many factors that will determine who is successful in a race like this. I think way too many people get caught up with FTP and get lost when that doesn't turn into results.


Which is why FTP/sustainable aerobic power is the most important _physiological _determinant of success in endurance cycling. Can't win if you don't arrive at the finish in good shape (or alone).

There are of course other factors:
physical (forces acting against us)
proficiency (execution, skills, tactics, strategy)
planning / performance management/modelling (getting training correct, planning prep, tapers etc)
psychological

So from a _physiological _standpoint, address sustainable aerobic power and anything else specific to the demands of the goal event(s). How you address aerobic power can however differ depending on a rider's current state of fitness, training history and their physiological profile.


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## stewie13 (Feb 5, 2005)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Which is why FTP/sustainable aerobic power is the most important _physiological _determinant of success in endurance cycling. Can't win if you don't arrive at the finish in good shape (or alone).
> 
> There are of course other factors:
> physical (forces acting against us)
> ...



I know and agree completely. Look at at all the replies here and basically none of them address those other factors. 

It really should be common sense at this point that you need to focus on sustainable aerobic power but as you race at higher and higher levels, the gaps between differences in riders sustainable aerobic power become smaller and smaller so you need much more than just a high FTP to be successful at races other than TTs.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

stewie13 said:


> I know and agree completely. Look at at all the replies here and basically none of them address those other factors.
> 
> It really should be common sense at this point that you need to focus on sustainable aerobic power but as you race at higher and higher levels, the gaps between differences in riders sustainable aerobic power become smaller and smaller so you need much more than just a high FTP to be successful at races other than TTs.


I think that none of the other posts address those other factors because there's a general sense that the two racers described in the original post aren't even in the ballpark (to mix sporting metaphors) for "be[ing] successful" in the race and field described. They need to put themselves in a position to be able to race it before the question of how to win it is even relevant. The original post skipped the first issue and went right to the second. 

Mark Cavendish has all those "other factors" in spades, but if you asked how he should train to win a mountain-top finish in a grand tour, people would probably say he should work on his sustainable aerobic power.


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## stewie13 (Feb 5, 2005)

Undecided said:


> I think that none of the other posts address those other factors because there's a general sense that the two racers described in the original post aren't even in the ballpark (to mix sporting metaphors) for "be[ing] successful" in the race and field described. They need to put themselves in a position to be able to race it before the question of how to win it is even relevant. The original post skipped the first issue and went right to the second.
> 
> Mark Cavendish has all those "other factors" in spades, but if you asked how he should train to win a mountain-top finish in a grand tour, people would probably say he should work on his sustainable aerobic power.


Valid point.


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## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

Well said guys, I think at this point everything has now been covered,
we just need Nitro to tell us how he plans to train these 2 guys, he has time up his sleve to plan a few similar training races to see how there progressing.
Not sure what prompted me to reply to this thread as I knew it would cause contrversey and everyone is an expert.... 
including me  But now l'm hooked on the scenario and need to follow this thread
I have a sneaky suspicion Nitro might be the sprinter profile:idea:


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

iliveonnitro said:


> Hypothetical. Think of it as a test. I'll post what I would do probably in a few days.


OK, "a few days" is up.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Undecided said:


> OK, "a few days" is up.


Wow, completely forgot about this thread. Here is my short answer.

Realistically, neither "seasoned" rider can raise their FTP from 300 to 350 by this race. The climber should focus on more VO2max and anaerobic work (which respond fairly quickly). Then, hope the climb is short enough, and raced slow enough, that he can hang on or catch up to the lead group after each time up. Some good tactics and a lot of luck could really only help him with the race. If possible, he should drop any more weight to raise the FTP as high as possible.

The sprinter is really hopeless for this race, so there is no real good answer on how to coach him. Finishing on a 7min climb wouldn't suit him at all. Best bet, if he wanted to do as well as possible, would be to focus on FTP work, some VO2, and less on his anaerobic ability, which presumably comes quickly/naturally. Then coach him to feel good about helping a teammate 

After finding out each rider's exact power profile, train the weaknesses (which is obvious). One could guess, however, that the climber would need to work anaerobic/VO2, while the sprinter needs to work FTP/VO2 to do well in the same hilly, one-day race.


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