# Prince Frame cracked - total dissapointment



## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

I just wanted to share a pic of my frame, cracked at the bottle cage bolt. I’m totally disappointed with the quality, will see if Gita & Pinarello cover the warranty and send me a new frame.

View attachment 171919


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## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

Dont stess, they will cover it for sure.


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## airastro (Jun 30, 2006)

*Frame Cracked*

Don't stress. I had a warranty issue smaller than yours. From the day I sent my Prince frame in, to the day I was back riding was 2 weeks. I had an 08 which they replaced with an 09


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

*warranty*

Well, it makes me feel better knowing that they are taking warranty issues seriously


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

Sorry you're having such a bad experience but glad you caught it before any chance of injury. My expeience with Gita and Pinarello tells me you should have no problem getting a replacement and probably an upgrade to an 09. These things happen and not just to Pinos but all bikes manufacturers and materials. Just reference any other brands forum and you will read about similar stories. Pinarello back up their products as goos or better than most. IMHO YMMV.

Question for you:

What size frame?
How tall are you?
How much do you weigh?


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

What size frame? 53cm (54.5cm top tube)
How tall are you? 5.11
How much do you weigh? 163lb




rhauft said:


> Sorry you're having such a bad experience but glad you caught it before any chance of injury. My expeience with Gita and Pinarello tells me you should have no problem getting a replacement and probably an upgrade to an 09. These things happen and not just to Pinos but all bikes manufacturers and materials. Just reference any other brands forum and you will read about similar stories. Pinarello back up their products as goos or better than most. IMHO YMMV.
> 
> Question for you:
> 
> ...


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## Gerard43 (Jul 24, 2009)

Not surpised I had a Paris carbon it's carbon went smokey and started to lift ..


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Hopefully you bought the bike from an Authorized Pinarello Dealer. If not, bye bye warranty.


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

master2129 said:


> Hopefully you bought the bike from an Authorized Pinarello Dealer. If not, bye bye warranty.


I did, thinking that in such situation it will make the process easier but they are still "debating" if this is manufacturing defect


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## dnalsaam (Dec 6, 2004)

I used to evaluate the potential validity of warranty claims for a major Italian frame builder (*NOT* PInarello) Just being the devil's advocate here, but I think that it should be pointed out that this does not appear to me as being a clear case of manufacturing defect.

Who built the bike up? Do they have proper torque meter tools? The damage that your frame has, could be due to over tightening of the bottle cage bolts. I have great doubts that overtightening is the cause of the crack but I wouldn't rule it out without seeing the frame first hand. What bottle cage did you have fitted? Why did you remove the cage? Heck, you could even cause that kind of damage by simply applying untowards stress on the bottle cage. I'm not saying that this is what happened in your case, but I can understand why a manufacturer would want to think it over as the location of the crack is not in a stressed area and there simply isn't a logical explanation why the crack would occur and propagate there. There is therefore at least reasonable doubt for the validity of a warranty claim.

From my experience with both Gita and Pinarello, if there is even the chance that it is due to a manufacturing defect, they will warranty it. Even if they were to judge that the crack was not caused by a defect, I would expect that they would still make some type of conciliatory offer.

Keep us up to date on what is decided.


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## simplyhankk (Jan 30, 2008)

Super glue can be useful 

sorry to see that about your frame, hope you get a new one soon!


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

I understand you point of view but, first of all is not my first carbon bike and I know a thing of two about torques and carbon components. I have all the tools to only apply the required torque for each component on the bike. 

The bike was built up by WrenchScience but the bottle cages I installed myself. I took the bottle cage off so I can take pictures of the issue for GITA and WrenchScience, not to cover any "issues"!

Like I said, I have my conscience clear knowing I did everything right and if this frame can't take day to day use it's a piece of junk! Especially when you think it cost $5K. 

I have a Scott CR1 I've been using for years and it's in perfect shape, same bottle cages on that bike, by the way.

The difference between a design on paper and a real product is that flaws are always exposed in real life whey that product is used. But, not trusting a consumer that they used the product the correct way and a manufacturing flaw was revealed seems to me a little bit arrogant. It's like saying "this could never happen to our product if it was used properly". Every product in this whole world has flaws!

In any case if the manufacturer decides this is my fault I'll take the frame to Italy and expect them to prove it was my mistake, it's easy for them to say "it's not our fault" but I expect some proof, don't you agree? 

Besides, if they are so confident that every single frame they produce is PERFECT they should warrant the frame for life! Everybody knows carbon is not a perfect material and the smallest mistake in the manufacturing process can lead to weak spots. 

We'll see what they decide, but I'm sure this is my first and last Pinarello frame! I piece of junk if I can't ride it, I didn't buy it to show my friends what a "cool" frame I have.




dnalsaam said:


> I used to evaluate the potential validity of warranty claims for a major Italian frame builder (*NOT* PInarello) Just being the devil's advocate here, but I think that it should be pointed out that this does not appear to me as being a clear case of manufacturing defect.
> 
> Who built the bike up? Do they have proper torque meter tools? The damage that your frame has, could be due to over tightening of the bottle cage bolts. I have great doubts that overtightening is the cause of the crack but I wouldn't rule it out without seeing the frame first hand. What bottle cage did you have fitted? Why did you remove the cage? Heck, you could even cause that kind of damage by simply applying untowards stress on the bottle cage. I'm not saying that this is what happened in your case, but I can understand why a manufacturer would want to think it over as the location of the crack is not in a stressed area and there simply isn't a logical explanation why the crack would occur and propagate there. There is therefore at least reasonable doubt for the validity of a warranty claim.
> 
> ...


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

simplyhankk said:


> Super glue can be useful
> 
> sorry to see that about your frame, hope you get a new one soon!


no kidding, that may be an option  if they deny me warranty I'll try to fix it myself, I have some experience building carbon fiber boat hulls so I could use epoxy w/ high grade carbon fiber and wrap down tube around that area. It will probably hold for light rides...


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

kyrider said:


> no kidding, that may be an option  if they deny me warranty I'll try to fix it myself, I have some experience building carbon fiber boat hulls so I could use epoxy w/ high grade carbon fiber and wrap down tube around that area. It will probably hold for light rides...


Calfee would fix it. No problem for them.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

kyrider said:


> I'll take the frame to Italy


cool your jets, turbo.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

dnalsaam said:


> From my experience with both Gita and Pinarello, if there is even the chance that it is due to a manufacturing defect, they will warranty it.


Unfortunately, my experiences have been the opposite. Most notably, a 6 month warranty claim regarding cracked dropouts on a Dogma.


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

-dustin said:


> cool your jets, turbo.


Actually, I'm not kidding  I'll be there this fall anyway, so a trip to the factory is not out of the question... Since I had the issue I researched and there is a LOT of people reporting issues with Pinarello bikes which manufacturer refused to cover under warranty. I wish I was more informed when I made the decision to drop $5K on the frame.


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## f.gump (May 7, 2006)

kyrider said:


> ... I know a thing of two about torques and carbon components. I have all the tools to only apply the required torque for each component on the bike...


out of curiosity, what torque did you apply to the cage bolts?
that crack seems to be due to something hitting hard the waterbottle cage.... or like other said, to overtightening.


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

f.gump said:


> out of curiosity, what torque did you apply to the cage bolts?
> that crack seems to be due to something hitting hard the waterbottle cage.... or like other said, to overtightening.


I use 2-3Nm for bottle cages.

I know what it looks like... BTW, to crack the frame like that with a wrench you need way more than 2-3Nm, the bolt would probably go first before the frame if it was overtightening! 

Believe me if it was my fault I would not be so pissed off. Things happen, but when I know I did nothing wrong it's different story.


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## f.gump (May 7, 2006)

thanks, I've always been unsure about the torque to be used for bottle cages


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

f.gump said:


> thanks, I've always been unsure about the torque to be used for bottle cages


Please not that this is max torque usually you apply less than that. I go just a little bit more after the cage touches the frame so the bottle doesn’t bounce (which can cause stress in carbon frames) and I set my torque wrench between 0-3Nm to make sure I'm not going over. But you should check w/ your frame manufacturer maybe they have different specs.


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

kyrider said:


> Actually, I'm not kidding  I'll be there this fall anyway, so a trip to the factory is not out of the question... Since I had the issue I researched and there is a LOT of people reporting issues with Pinarello bikes which manufacturer refused to cover under warranty. I wish I was more informed when I made the decision to drop $5K on the frame.


If you're going to be in the area anyway, you should definitely plan a trip to the Treviso shop. I've been a happy Pinarello owner for decades. I've purchased direct from Fausto & Nani, from Italian retailers, Gita, and US retailers. 

I've owned over a dozen Pinarello's from lugged steel, alloy/scandium to current state of the art carbon, always a pleasant experience. My experience with the manufacturer has always been positive and professional. Warranty claims always handled with mutual respect and a sense of urgency. My first Prince FP was replaced simply because of a crack in the paint around the front der. clamp. 

You need to try to maintain a positive attitude and stop whining before the jury is even out, otherwise you may assume a self fulfilling prophecy. My .02


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

kyrider said:


> Actually, I'm not kidding  I'll be there this fall anyway, so a trip to the factory is not out of the question... Since I had the issue I researched and there is a LOT of people reporting issues with Pinarello bikes which manufacturer refused to cover under warranty. I wish I was more informed when I made the decision to drop $5K on the frame.


Any updates?


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

master2129 said:


> Any updates?


I'm still waiting a response from GITA, they promised something Friday but I'll wait few more days and then call them back if I don't hear from them.


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

I finally got a response from GITA last night and they are replacing the frame. I took the bike to a Pinarello dealer to have all components taken off and send the frame back to GITA. Should have the replacement soon.


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

kyrider said:


> I finally got a response from GITA last night and they are replacing the frame. I took the bike to a Pinarello dealer to have all components taken off and send the frame back to GITA. Should have the replacement soon.


You almost sound disappointed ???

No surprise Gita is making good. My advise to you is when you get your new replacement Prince, sell it immediately to someone with a better appreciation for the brand... ...and get yourself a nice new Trek from your LBS :thumbsup:


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

rhauft said:


> You almost sound disappointed ???
> 
> No surprise Gita is making good. My advise to you is when you get your new replacement Prince, sell it immediately to someone with a better appreciation for the brand... ...and get yourself a nice new Trek from your LBS :thumbsup:



Disappointed no, relieved yes 

I'm considering the Trek option. Don't get me wrong Prince is an amazing frame but to have problems after such a short period of time it makes me question the quality and durability. I realize not everybody has this sort of problems but still…


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

kyrider said:


> Disappointed no, relieved yes
> ...I realize not everybody has this sort of problems but still…


Happy to hear things are working out for you, as I assumed they would.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Here in Britain when you buy an item, the contract is between you and the seller. Not between you and the manufacturer. Our Sale of Goods Act says that an item should work as designed without problems for 6 years.
This is why I have no worries with Carbon Fibre Frames - If a fault develops the shop has an obligation to sort things out.


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

*New frame and bike…*

I finally got the call the other day from the bike shop that my bike is ready. So I jumped in the car and drove over there. An 18-19 years old mechanic brings me the bike and I start to check it out to make sure all is okay. There were plenty of surprises:
1) Fork was not seating correctly on the head tube, there is a noticeable gap about 2-3mm between the fork crown and the head tube.

2) Inside the left seat stay there is a scratch which seems like a tire or rim burn. I did notice there was some rubber dust in that area and after I wiped it out I saw this scratch thru the pain and primer. When I got the bike the wheel was pulled to the left so my guess is that they test rode the bike and did not notice it.

3) Another noticeable issue was on the head tube where the paint was chipped. This could be fixed with some touch up paint and then a layer of clear coat.

4) The seat post was clamped w/o a rug in a working stand and it has permanent scratches in the clear coat and black marks from the clamp.

5) The headset was improperly installed which was causing the stem/bar to not be attached properly to the fork. Basically there was no vertical compression on the stem and the stack of spacers to press down on the fork steerer. After I showed the issues to the same 18y old mechanic he replies "it's normal w/ carbon components" !?. I was stunned… and I asked for a more experienced mechanic to take a look and he realized the headset was improperly installed.

I demanded some answers for the “cosmetic” issues on the frame and they told me that "the frame was sent from GITA with these issues and they can't do anything about it". It’s hard to believe that but I can’t really prove anything of course.

What really caught my attention was the fact that there was no torque wrench in the shop, all mechanics used regular wrenches!? I joked with one of them that maybe I should check the torques on the bike when I get back home and he says "I know the feel of a 5 or 30mn I don't need a torque" !? Speechless....

At least I have a bike and I can train...


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

It seems that Pinarello should be looking to improve their Importer and customer service. The Prince is their flagship bike and there should be no problems whatsoever that they will not deal with.


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

albert owen said:


> It seems that Pinarello should be looking to improve their Importer and customer service. The Prince is their flagship bike and there should be no problems whatsoever that they will not deal with.


I totally agree. BTW their top of the line bike will be Dogma 60.1 starting next month


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

kyrider said:


> I finally got the call the other day from the bike shop that my bike is ready. So I jumped in the car and drove over there. An 18-19 years old mechanic brings me the bike and I start to check it out to make sure all is okay. There were plenty of surprises:
> 1) Fork was not seating correctly on the head tube, there is a noticeable gap about 2-3mm between the fork crown and the head tube.
> 
> 2) Inside the left seat stay there is a scratch which seems like a tire or rim burn. I did notice there was some rubber dust in that area and after I wiped it out I saw this scratch thru the pain and primer. When I got the bike the wheel was pulled to the left so my guess is that they test rode the bike and did not notice it.
> ...


This is how your frameset arrived at your LBS from Gita. *None of the issues you describe above were caused by Gita or Pinarello. Your LBS is the guilty culprit.* 
I would never let them touch my bike. You need to invest in some tools and learn how work on your bike your self. Why pay someone else to screw up your rig when you can screw it up for free :idea: Words to live by...


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

rhauft said:


> This is how your frameset arrived at your LBS from Gita. *None of the issues you describe above were caused by Gita or Pinarello. Your LBS is the guilty culprit.*
> I would never let them touch my bike. You need to invest in some tools and learn how work on your bike your self. Why pay someone else to screw up your rig when you can screw it up for free :idea: Words to live by...


I have all the tools and I know how to put a bike together but I made the mistake to take the advice of GITA and let the dealer do the work. Big and costly mistake.


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## terrain (Apr 19, 2009)

Kyrider - how was your overall experience with Wrench S? Were they good/easy to work with when you contacted them about the crack?


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## kyrider (Apr 28, 2007)

terrain said:


> Kyrider - how was your overall experience with Wrench S? Were they good/easy to work with when you contacted them about the crack?


WS is a very professional bike shop and they do quality work! Yes, they did everything they could to help me with the warranty for my frame and Tim will help you with any issues.

I regret I didn't send the bike back to them but I thought a Pinarello dealer anywhere in the country would do a good job.


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## koyaanisqatsi (Aug 5, 2009)

I've heard too many stories of cracked or broken Pinarello frames. With only a two year warranty, it seems even Pinarello has little confidence in the durability of their frames. I don't doubt they the bikes ride great and they are stylish. But who wants to live with a bike that you feel you must avoid every minor road imperfection with? After the warranty expires, what then? And having to have the frame replaced under warranty, you may be without your bike for a couple months. For an enthusiast or racer during the riding season, that's a long time.

That's part of the reason I selected a Lynskey titanium frame bike. It may not perform quite as well as a Pinarello, or it may perform better. But it will be there when I need it. Not to pick on Pinarello, since many other carbon frame manufacturers have short warranties on their frames. In the second stage of the Vuelta a Espana, a rider broke his carbon fiber frame (manufacturer unknown). Who needs the grief? To get me to buy one, they need built them a bit more sturdy.


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## jpaine (May 13, 2007)

Great to hear....I think the LBS is key when buying expensive bikes. I live in Singapore and they LBS there is the best I have seen....also been to Treviso a couple of times and the people there seem great too.


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