# 2016 Specialized Venge?



## Ahillock




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## NealH

No way. Specialized would never denigrate the Venge name by making something like that.


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## MMsRepBike

oh god no.


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## Ahillock

NealH said:


> No way. Specialized would never denigrate the Venge name by making something like that.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. Guess we will find out in a few weeks time. The paint scheme makes it look like some Giro specific paint. Expecting it to be officially unveiled there or possibly at the TdF? Probably Giro if I had to guess.


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## MMsRepBike

that's not a new frame. and it's awful.


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## Ahillock

MMsRepBike said:


> *that's not a new frame.* and it's awful.


What are you basing that off of? If you have a link, can you post it? 

The above picture has a brand new fork. The head tube is completely different than any other Venge that I have seen. The headset is different than the current duckbill headset thing that Specialized has on the current Venge. Seatpost is obviously new. The fairing behind the stem is obviously new. The downtube also looks dropped, as it is much closer to the front wheel. 

If you have some solid information or a post why this is an old frame, please let me know. The expense for Specialized to do a one off mold for this with the new downtube, head tube, fork and seatpost just wouldn't make sense imo. 


2015 Specialize Venge S-Works.











Above picture Specialized Venge S-Works










Looks at the differences at the front of the frame and fork.


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## vertr

Ahillock said:


> What are you basing that off of? If you have a link, can you post it?
> 
> The above picture has a brand new fork. The head tube is completely different than any other Venge that I have seen. The headset is different than the current duckbill headset thing that Specialized has on the current Venge. Seatpost is obviously new. The fairing behind the stem is obviously new. The downtube also looks dropped, as it is much closer to the front wheel.
> 
> If you have some solid information or a post why this is an old frame, please let me know. The expense for Specialized to do a one off mold for this with the new downtube, head tube, fork and seatpost just wouldn't make sense imo.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks at the differences at the front of the frame and fork.


It's not the new Venge, get over it. All the lines of the original Venge are visible. They just threw some kitchey gross **** on it to try to mask that. Specialized has a keen aesthetic and this does not match that. If anything this is a three year old prototype shot from the original frame.

For evidence see this graphic treatment: https://www.bicikel.com/uploads/uploaded_file/specialized_nibali.jpg


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## benny and the jets

Hey buddy, you're about 4 weeks late for an April Fool's post


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## TricrossRich

Ahillock said:


> What are you basing that off of? If you have a link, can you post it?
> 
> The above picture has a brand new fork. The head tube is completely different than any other Venge that I have seen. The headset is different than the current duckbill headset thing that Specialized has on the current Venge. Seatpost is obviously new. The fairing behind the stem is obviously new. The downtube also looks dropped, as it is much closer to the front wheel.
> 
> If you have some solid information or a post why this is an old frame, please let me know. The expense for Specialized to do a one off mold for this with the new downtube, head tube, fork and seatpost just wouldn't make sense imo.
> 
> 
> 2015 Specialize Venge S-Works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above picture Specialized Venge S-Works
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks at the differences at the front of the frame and fork.



That's the same old Venge.. the graphics of the paint scheme are making optical illusions to make you think the head tube is different, its not. The headset, that just a simple change, the duckbill headset can be replaced with any round headset, in fact, if you look at Boonen's Venge you'll often see that he swaps it out to a more tradition round one so he can make the stem as low as possible. The fairings on the top tube and seat post... nothing special, just additions...

and probably the biggest reason, I think this is just a normal Venge.. Specialized posted the image themselves on their SpecializedWMN Instagram account calling it the barbie Venge...

https://instagram.com/p/1_O9WdA92k/?taken-by=specializedwmn


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## Ahillock

The new picture definitely isn't the same frame as the current Venge. Whether or not that new picture is a legitimate photo of the new '16 Venge, we will just have to wait and see. But anyone that takes a moment to look can see they are different. Just look at the downtube/headtube/fork. Completely different frame. Not even close to being the same. And it isn't some optical allusion with the paint.
























On that new picture, the downtube is one continuous line all the way into the head tube. On the old picture, the downtube straightends out flat as it becomes the bottom of the headtube. The forks are also completely different.

Again, who knows if this is really the new Venge or just some online photoshop that someone did and threw online.


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## TricrossRich

hmmm... I see the subtly differences. I just over-layed images of both bikes in photoshop and there are some very small differences.

I still don't think it points to a 2016 Venge. I think its simply a 1 off they did... There's no way that Specialized would purposely post the "new" yet to released Venge that way.. When they bring a new one, it'll be a big deal, not some leaked barbie bike image on the Specialized women's account...


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## thumper8888

It looks like a custom job built from an the current frame. Thethe dropped downtube and fork were the hard part of the custom work. The rest is tacked on, no big deal.
Specialized wouldn't build something that looked like this, at least for production... the dropped downtube, yes. The fairing behind the stem? no.


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## vertr

thumper8888 said:


> It looks like a custom job built from an the current frame. Thethe dropped downtube and fork were the hard part of the custom work. The rest is tacked on, no big deal.
> Specialized wouldn't build something that looked like this, at least for production... the dropped downtube, yes. The fairing behind the stem? no.


AKA, a photoshop.


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## thumper8888

vertr said:


> AKA, a photoshop.


Yeah, I would but that it's a photoshop. My gut tells me its a real modification... there is a shop or two out there doing that sort of thing. In a way, the mods are almostt too minor for a photoshop -- I mean, you can easily go wild, why do stuff thats so minor if youre gonna take the time to photoshop it.

That said, the big point, whether its a photoshop or some misguided real-world mods, is that there is no way in hell Specialized would make something that so clearly 1) is not a step up in design from current venge and 2) is just so cobbled-together looking. That thing wouldn't sell two copies unless by some miracle those half-assed changes yielded like, 40 watts. Which aint possible.


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## taodemon

https://instagram.com/p/08285KIpmO/

Supposedly it is a custom venge built for someone. That said, the post was about 4 weeks ago and could have been an april 1st thing like the selfie mount they posted as well.

I've been holding off making any further upgrades to my current venge just in case something drastic happens with the new one. 

Another thing going against that being the new venge is that seatpost. I dont think that it would be uci legal (3 to 1 blahblabla) and isn't one of the selling points of the current venge that it is UCI legal?

How would they introduce a bike that wasnt UCI legal at one of the tours?


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## MMsRepBike

They can't. In fact the teams aren't even allowed to be in possession of ANY bike not approved by the UCI. Meaning not even on their trucks or whatever. If it isn't approved, it can not be on site or in their possession period.


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## TricrossRich

taodemon said:


> https://instagram.com/p/08285KIpmO/
> 
> Supposedly it is a custom venge built for someone. That said, the post was about 4 weeks ago and could have been an april 1st thing like the selfie mount they posted as well.
> 
> I've been holding off making any further upgrades to my current venge just in case something drastic happens with the new one.
> 
> Another thing going against that being the new venge is that seatpost. I dont think that it would be uci legal (3 to 1 blahblabla) and isn't one of the selling points of the current venge that it is UCI legal?
> 
> How would they introduce a bike that wasnt UCI legal at one of the tours?





MMsRepBike said:


> They can't. In fact the teams aren't even allowed to be in possession of ANY bike not approved by the UCI. Meaning not even on their trucks or whatever. If it isn't approved, it can not be on site or in their possession period.


Who said anything about any of the teams being in possession of that bike or racing it? You guys jump to conclusions so quickly...


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## taodemon

TricrossRich said:


> Who said anything about any of the teams being in possession of that bike or racing it? You guys jump to conclusions so quickly...


I wasn't saying anything about teams having it. I just mentioned that it would be unlikely that they would make a new venge that wasn't "UCI legal" and the seatpost in that picture clearly doesnt follow that 3:1 ratio that the current venge does to make it uci legal.

i think MMs just took it a bit further by mentioning that teams arent even allowed to have bikes that arent legal.


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## MMsRepBike

I just answered the last question with some relevant information about the UCI rules on the premise of a race event. Nobody jumped to any conclusions.


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## taodemon

On a somewhat related note the Peter Sagan venge frame is up on the specilized website for those that liked the colors/design (didn't care for it personally).


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## Cni2i

I hope it is...so I won't want to get a new one.


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## taodemon

Cni2i said:


> I hope it is...so I won't want to get a new one.


I have mixed feelings on a new venge, in some ways a better performing venge would be awesome, but at the same time that means I would want to buy a new one which wouldn't be cheap.


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## MMsRepBike

It's official. The new Venge... or rather a new aero road bike is being released this season from Specialized. They have sent out invitations to the press for its release. That's all I have to share.


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## thumper8888

Did the source have the date of the event the press is invited to?


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## MMsRepBike

He just said it's happening and they've been invited already. All I heard. Nice to hear something concrete though.


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## thumper8888

great, thanks. it takes a bit of time to plan travel like that, so at least a few weeks, prob the stories will come out right before or right after le tour.


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## tyrich88

oh man! New bikes! I get way too geeked up about these releases... I'm sure no one here can relate


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## NealH

UCI approved list was just updated a couple days ago. No new offering from Specialized or Trek. I kind of doubt we will see a new Venge this year. Maybe in 2016.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/...tofApprovedModelsofFramesandForks_English.pdf


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## MMsRepBike

there's some new additions to that list.

like the gan.

and the fenix sl.

all updated/approved right around the same time as the venge.

wait... the venge just got approval? Venge Rim?
Scott F02?


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## NealH

I don't think so. The Venge Rim is merely a Venge with hydraulic rim brakes. We will probably see a new Venge in 2016.


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## thumper8888

*well, they have dallied long enough*



NealH said:


> I don't think so. The Venge Rim is merely a Venge with hydraulic rim brakes. We will probably see a new Venge in 2016.



D'alsusio said recently that they would have an exciting new bike this summer, but I guess not the Venge.
Doesn't matter to me now... Specialized has lost me by waiting this long for a Venge update, at least for this cycle of new frames, I went ahead and bought a 2015 Cervelo S5.


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## mile2424

pretty sure you will see a new Venge at the tour. Just wait 1 month


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## NealH

The S5 Cervelo is a nice bike, as is the S3 (and S2 for that matter). But none of these aero bikes have the feel and comfort of the Tarmac - at least to me. And with a rider on the bike, the aero frame advantage becomes all but moot. I've thought hard about getting an aero bike for my winters in Florida but, every time I try one I always come back saying that I will just keep riding my Tarmac. If I was a competitive racer then maybe I'd get one but, as a group rider its just not worth the tradeoff in feel and comfort to me. Each person is different though, and some think the Venge rides every bit as good as the Tarmac. More power to them. Nevertheless, I look forward to a new Venge - when that time eventually comes.


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## vertr

NealH said:


> And with a rider on the bike, the aero frame advantage becomes all but moot.


Specialized's wind tunnel results say otherwise.


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## Rashadabd

vertr said:


> Specialized's wind tunnel results say otherwise.


It all comes down to a bunch of factors (and we have been over this far too many times). Yes it matters, but not as much as many suggest. The biggest factor in improving aerodynamics on the bike is getting our big noggins down out of the wind. Improved riding position trumps everything else by a long shot. After that, every little bit helps a significant amount when you are riding in a wind tunnel, but guess what folks? We don't ride in wind tunnels. These factors often become less siginifcant when you are riding in a group, covering rough terrain (Roubaix), and climbing up steep hills and mountains, etc. Good lungs, legs, weight, and riding position crush everything else....period. If you already have that, just want to maximize what you have, or love the techie side of cycling, there's nothing wrong with going aero, just keep it in its proper perspective I say. It's not as much about the bike as it is about the rider in the end, so we might as well go for what makes us comfortable and happy. Racers win crits, stages, sprints, and tours all the time on bikes with traditional geometry. Others choose aero bikes as their weapon of choice almost all season long (Kristoff, Degenkolb, etc.). Do you, but know there is no end all be all when it comes to the bike itself (when it comes to geometry, material, gearing, etc.).


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## thumper8888

Rashadabd said:


> It all comes down to a bunch of factors (and we have been over this far too many times). Yes it matters, but not as much as many suggest. The biggest factor in improving aerodynamics on the bike is getting our big noggins down out of the wind. Improved riding position trumps everything else by a long shot. After that, every little bit helps a significant amount when you are riding in a wind tunnel, but guess what folks? We don't ride in wind tunnels. These factors often become less siginifcant when you are riding in a group, covering rough terrain (Roubaix), and climbing up steep hills and mountains, etc. Good lungs, legs, weight, and riding position crush everything else....period. If you already have that, just want to maximize what you have, or love the techie side of cycling, there's nothing wrong with going aero, just keep it in its proper perspective I say. It's not as much about the bike as it is about the rider in the end, so we might as well go for what makes us comfortable and happy. Racers win crits, stages, sprints, and tours all the time on bikes with traditional geometry. Others choose aero bikes as their weapon of choice almost all season long (Kristoff, Degenkolb, etc.). Do you, but know there is no end all be all when it comes to the bike itself (when it comes to geometry, material, gearing, etc.).


you're one of the sanest folks on the forum ... and all this is absoluely true. but I have to say that the difference is noticeable. Not so much because of the frames on aero bikes, but the whole package... if you have a decent aero frame, deep wheels, fairly slick and narrow bars, it adds up to enough to feel as versus a full-on old school frame, particuarly one set up with exterior cables and shallow wheels.
I run one of each, and the standard frame setup is clearly draggy in high speed pulls and coasting tests (2-3 mph) down major hills at terminal velocity.
But i agree with what youre saying. 
Yeah, I have to keep my fat noggin down low in either case. And for example if it was just the S5 frame versus tarmac sl2 or sl3, on the same bars and wheels I wouldnt be able to tell the differences, except in harsher ride quality.


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## TricrossRich

I'm 100% certain we'll see a new "aero" frame from Specialized at the Tour.


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## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> you're one of the sanest folks on the forum ... and all this is absoluely true. but I have to say that the difference is noticeable. Not so much because of the frames on aero bikes, but the whole package... if you have a decent aero frame, deep wheels, fairly slick and narrow bars, it adds up to enough to feel as versus a full-on old school frame, particuarly one set up with exterior cables and shallow wheels.
> I run one of each, and the standard frame setup is clearly draggy in high speed pulls and coasting tests (2-3 mph) down major hills at terminal velocity.
> But i agree with what youre saying.
> Yeah, I have to keep my fat noggin down low in either case. And for example if it was just the S5 frame versus tarmac sl2 or sl3, on the same bars and wheels I wouldnt be able to tell the differences, except in harsher ride quality.


I have to agree... I have a Venge and an Allez comp... set up basically the same from a geometry and riding position standpoint. The Venge is on 50mm carbon wheels and the Allez is actually on 60mm carbon wheels. The Venge definitely goes faster down the same set of downhill sections. 

I love bombing down hills... obviously position, rider weight, rider guts (not hitting the brakes) all play a big part... but I routinely pass most of my friends in downhill sections... The only guy that seems to go down as fast as me is on a Tarmac, but he's 30 pounds heavier.


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## mile2424

TricrossRich said:


> I'm 100% certain we'll see a new "aero" frame from Specialized at the Tour.


I live in the bay area and I saw what I think was Chris D'Aluisio riding an unmarked black bike a few weeks ago in Santa Cruz. I was in a car on a backroad, and saw him stop at a stop sign, before coming past my car. I am thinking this could have been the venge but I guess we will find out soon. I didn't get a great look at it, all I noticed was that the downtube had an interesting or weird cutout in it, almost like a Wilier cento crono. Can't wait to see what the next gen looks like.


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## TricrossRich

mile2424 said:


> I live in the bay area and I saw what I think was Chris D'Aluisio riding an unmarked black bike a few weeks ago in Santa Cruz. I was in a car on a backroad, and saw him stop at a stop sign, before coming past my car. I am thinking this could have been the venge but I guess we will find out soon. I didn't get a great look at it, all I noticed was that the downtube had an interesting or weird cutout in it, almost like a Wilier cento crono. Can't wait to see what the next gen looks like.


Oh... yes, driving around looking for people on bikes before the sun comes up cn give a lot of clues.


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## Imaking20

NealH said:


> UCI approved list was just updated a couple days ago. No new offering from Specialized or Trek. I kind of doubt we will see a new Venge this year. Maybe in 2016.
> 
> http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/...tofApprovedModelsofFramesandForks_English.pdf


Do you really not realize that the list you provided is proof of a new Venge? Why would they submit a several year old design for approval in November 2014? I know for certain something is coming. It sounds like we might have seen a glimpse of it sooner but a certain sprinter wasn't so committed to a certain classic due to illness. Now my big S guy has been pretty tight lipped about changes. It doesn't sound like they're reinventing the wheel but, then again, I don't think they need to. I love my Venge... ready for a touch more compliance in the rear though...


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## jbrandt

Rumors I have heard about the new Venge: 1) wiring will be fully integrated (think Shiv), 2) it will be unveiled at the Tour, 3) there will be 2 geometries (1 that is better for crit racing with a higher bottom bracket), 4) frameset will cost $5000 USD (I imagine the frameset will have to include seatpost, stem and bars to be more aero and support the integrated cables). All of the above in unverified rumors (and some speculation).


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## taodemon

5000 is a big jump in price from the current 3500 even including all that new stuff assuming that info is correct.


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## HaroldC

Imaking20 said:


> Do you really not realize that the list you provided is proof of a new Venge? Why would they submit a several year old design for approval in November 2014? I know for certain something is coming. It sounds like we might have seen a glimpse of it sooner but a certain sprinter wasn't so committed to a certain classic due to illness. Now my big S guy has been pretty tight lipped about changes. It doesn't sound like they're reinventing the wheel but, then again, I don't think they need to. I love my Venge... ready for a touch more compliance in the rear though...


The 2015 Venge is different from the pre-2014. The cable ports on the frame are now integrated instead of being bolt on components. If there was a new Venge, the teams sponsored by Specialized would be testing them in their Project Black paint job.


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## jbrandt

It sounds to me like there are 2 camps here. Those that think there will be a new Venge released at this year's tour and those that do not think we will see a new Venge in 2015. Personally, I am highly confident that we will see a new Venge. Yes the cable ports changed in 2015, but it is essentially the same frame that was initially released. That frame is getting long-in-the-tooth. Other companies have caught up with (and in some cases surpassed) Specialized in the aero frame category. The Tarmac and the Roubaix have both been updated since the Venge was released. Etc. 

I kind of wish the "there will be a new Venge" group could bet beers against the "there will not be a new Venge" group and then we could all sit around a drink beers while talking about bikes some more (because that sounds awesome).


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## taodemon

From what I've seen posted on trek's IG it seems like there might be a new Madone (more aero focus maybe). They posted that it would be unveiled june 30. I would think specialized would want to get something new (venge) out as well but I could very likely be wrong.


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## jbrandt

I have heard the rumor about a more Aero Madone as well. It makes since because I think the Emonda has completely cannibalized sales from the Madone. July cannot get here fast enough.


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## tyrich88

I think the sighting of Chris D'Aluisio on a project black bike resembling a venge is a PRETTY DANG GOOD clue haha.
And the fact that sponsored teams would be testing the frames is true, but they aren't very consistent on putting full teams on bikes until the tour, atleast that's the way it seems to me. 
Regardless, I would think we would see it at the tour. Fingers crossed.


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## djconnel

On the Madone 9, it's being raced @ Dauphine -- there's photos (for example on my blog : On Bicycles, and.... what else is there? ).

On the Venge -- if it was just a brake swap you wouldn't need UCI approval for the frame and fork. "Venge Rim" is the new Venge designed for rim brakes, as opposed to the "Venge Disc" which is designed for disc brakes, the latter obviously not relevant at present for UCI approval. With discs you don't need a brake bridge but you need a stiffer fork to handle the braking force from the disc brake. They also go to wider dropout spacing in the rear with proprietary wheels.


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## TricrossRich

Specialized dropped this on the internet yesterday.

Doesn't say anything... 

But here's my theory... a new Venge is coming, designed in the Win Tunnel and it will save 5 minutes over a 40km time trial compared to the current Venge. That "time over a 40km time trial" is a metric that they use in almost all of their Win Tunnel videos and if so, it would represent a pretty substantial amount of savings... In this video, the show a savings of a minute from a Tarmac to a Venge.. and a total of 3 minutes of savings by upgrading aero wheels, helmet, frame and tighter fitting aero kit.

Interesting.


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## jbrandt

I have been a heavy lean on buying a new Tarmac when I replace my current Venge. a 5 minute savings would definitely make me re-think that.


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## taodemon

5 minutes seems like way too much from just a frame upgrade. I guess we have to wait and see what it means. If the new venge somehow dissapoints the new madone is looking pretty damn good too.


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## MMsRepBike

Well if you notice, there's a trend going on.

When Cervelo set out to redesign the S5, they found that something like 30% of the drag from a "frame" was actually the handlebars. Maybe 40%, I forget which it is. Something huge. So they made a new set of bars, faster than anything on the market currently they say to go with the frame. If you have a new S5 and you opted to not get the bars, you made a huge mistake aerodynamically speaking.

Canyon has their integrated aero bar setup, now Trek does too. I'm betting the farm that this new Venge will have a new handlebar setup that will be part of the "frame" for their new testing numbers.

Position
Clothing
Helmet
Wheels
Frame


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## TricrossRich

MMsRepBike said:


> Well if you notice, there's a trend going on.
> 
> When Cervelo set out to redesign the S5, they found that something like 30% of the drag from a "frame" was actually the handlebars. Maybe 40%, I forget which it is. Something huge. So they made a new set of bars, faster than anything on the market currently they say to go with the frame. If you have a new S5 and you opted to not get the bars, you made a huge mistake aerodynamically speaking.
> 
> Canyon has their integrated aero bar setup, now Trek does too. I'm betting the farm that this new Venge will have a new handlebar setup that will be part of the "frame" for their new testing numbers.
> 
> Position
> Clothing
> Helmet
> Wheels
> Frame


Agree 100%.. the rumors are saying, fully integrated cables with proprietary bars & stem. Imagine if it even has some sort of integrated/hidden garmin mount to get the computer out of the wind.


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## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> Well if you notice, there's a trend going on.
> 
> When Cervelo set out to redesign the S5, they found that something like 30% of the drag from a "frame" was actually the handlebars. Maybe 40%, I forget which it is. Something huge. So they made a new set of bars, faster than anything on the market currently they say to go with the frame. If you have a new S5 and you opted to not get the bars, you made a huge mistake aerodynamically speaking.
> 
> Canyon has their integrated aero bar setup, now Trek does too. I'm betting the farm that this new Venge will have a new handlebar setup that will be part of the "frame" for their new testing numbers.
> 
> Position
> Clothing
> Helmet
> Wheels
> Frame


Yeah, this sounds exactly right. The area of concentration has now become cleaning up the cables, wires and bar, and Specialized cant ignore that and still make any even faintly useful gains. They would be lucky to squeeze 5 watts out of the frame. 
Cervelo got exactly zero watts out of the new S5 frame... kept the same drag and made the tubes bigger and better shaped for ride and stiffness. All the gains were in the bar and changing OEM wheels, which isnt a gain anyway since no one in right mind buys a fancy aero frame and rides shallow wheels.
Canyon cleaned up not just bars but the Di2 junction box. Spesh surely will too. Though about the time this gets popular Di2 will go wireless.
Trek looks like they did something interesting with the head tube, looks like maybe there is a vertical tube or hole in it forward of steerer tube that front brake cable is run down.
Spesh may well do something interesting with the breaks and drop the downtube down to fill in more behind front wheel, which is one of the few ways they can make hay with frame aero... that and kamm-ed tube shapes and wind protection for water bottles.


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## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> Agree 100%.. the rumors are saying, fully integrated cables with proprietary bars & stem. Imagine if it even has some sort of integrated/hidden garmin mount to get the computer out of the wind.


IT looks like that's the way Trek went as well, if you have seen pictures of the new Madone, which is pretty impressive looking thus far (very Venge meats modern aero like a Pinarello F8 or Canyon).


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## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> IT looks like that's the way Trek went as well, if you have seen pictures of the new Madone, which is pretty impressive looking thus far (very Venge meats modern aero like a Pinarello F8 or Canyon).


I really like the look of it. here are lots of pictures if you haven't seen it:

Trek Madone 9 2016 sous toutes les coutures - Matos vélo, actualités vélo de route et tests de matériel cyclisme


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## tyrich88

all of that sounds awesome... but i just hope it looks sweet. 
Because to all of us non-pros... that what really matters. NEW BIKE FEVER AND LOOKS!


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## TricrossRich

tyrich88 said:


> all of that sounds awesome... but i just hope it looks sweet.
> Because to all of us non-pros... that what really matters. NEW BIKE FEVER AND LOOKS!


for sure...


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## Imaking20

jbrandt said:


> I have been a heavy lean on buying a new Tarmac when I replace my current Venge. a 5 minute savings would definitely make me re-think that.


Exactly this. 

I've got a teammate who's a Specialized shop manager. He's been hinting at "whole package" but recently told me there's no substance to the rumors about the bars. Could be misinformation. Time will tell.


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## NealH

Well I'm glad that its looking like there will be a new Venge. My guess is that the 5 minute savings is the lab test of frame alone, or frame with whatever new hardware they are providing such as integrated bar, etc - minus the rider. With a rider on the bike, the savings will likely be 45 seconds to 1 minute....I think. But that is still a pretty good savings if judged against the existing Venge with same setup. Having just looked at the new Trek, it does look nice and I like the partial ISO decoupler idea implemented. Aero bikes haves a reputation for being harsh. 

I just looked at the new clothing catalog from Spec (local dealer just got it in) and there are some nice new things coming out. Glove improvements, bibs & shorts, more products added, etc. The catalog is getting big and looks very nice.


----------



## vertr

The five minutes is likely for a new Shiv triathlon frame. Where else would you have enough time to save five minutes with a frame?


----------



## TricrossRich

vertr said:


> The five minutes is likely for a new Shiv triathlon frame. Where else would you have enough time to save five minutes with a frame?


This could be very likely as well....


----------



## tyrich88

I'm not saying it's impossible... but 5 minutes of savings from the last venge frame to this one seems outrageous...
I would go more for savings from a traditional road bike... but aero bike to aero bike, that just seems crazy.
I'd love to be wrong though.


----------



## tranzformer




----------



## tyrich88

Looks pretty sweet


----------



## tranzformer




----------



## thumper8888




----------



## tyrich88

At the Tour de Suisse???
I saw some of the Specialized guys were there, but hadn't seen these pictures.


----------



## mile2424

some pics are surfacing on other sites....


----------



## taodemon

thumper8888 said:


> View attachment 306652
> View attachment 306653



That seems like a pretty big departure from the current venge, especially with the flat top tube and seat stays placement. If that is the new venge I would definitely lean towards the new madone at least in the looks department.


----------



## mile2424

Deleted for double post


----------



## thumper8888

mile2424 said:


> some pics are starting to surface on o
> ther sites, maybe someone can post it up here


It would be helpful to have even a slightly better angle on the thing. Aesthetics seem a little less than ideal, but that shouldnt be the big consideration...
I've seen this photo on two other sites, but no other photos at all.
Still, if it's at the swiss tour, it will be under Cav and Sagan etc and we'll have shots soon enough.

That seems likely since Specialized has put up that 5 minute wind tunnel thing.... which I dont thing they would do just so it can sit there until the tour de france.


----------



## Rashadabd

Here's the Scott: It doesn't appear to have as many new features as the new Madone, but it is still good looking:

Scott Foil Frame Update coming soon?


----------



## NealH

Given the fact that they appear to be laughing their butts off, my guess is that this is a frame purposefully intended to confuse people.


----------



## taodemon

The Madone is still winning in the looks department for me. Part of the reason I like the current venge so much is the way it looks and if that is the new one they are getting rid of that aspect. 




NealH said:


> Given the fact that they appear to be laughing their butts off, my guess is that this is a frame purposefully intended to confuse people.


I hope you are right.


----------



## thumper8888

NealH said:


> Given the fact that they appear to be laughing their butts off, my guess is that this is a frame purposefully intended to confuse people.



That would be breaking new trickiness ground for even the all-powerful Dark Empire of Spesh. Tinkering up a frame with no visible brakes, hidden brake lines etc just for a conspiracy to briefly (three weeks at most) fool people about the nature of maybe their fifth or sixth best-selling design? I kind of doubt it.

I mean, why not just show nothing at all?

They do seem to be cackling fiendishly but its probably more at the wonderfulness of being in Switzerland, riding. On an expense account.

That's D'Alusio... and the guy on the left, is that the guy who runs the wintunnel video project?


----------



## mile2424

yes Chris Yu


----------



## Devastazione

Looks like I can go buy a Canyon Aeroad now...LOL...


----------



## tyrich88

thumper8888 said:


> That would be breaking new trickiness ground for even the all-powerful Dark Empire of Spesh. Tinkering up a frame with no visible brakes, hidden brake lines etc just for a conspiracy to briefly (three weeks at most) fool people about the nature of maybe their fifth or sixth best-selling design? I kind of doubt it.
> 
> I mean, why not just show nothing at all?
> 
> They do seem to be cackling fiendishly but its probably more at the wonderfulness of being in Switzerland, riding. On an expense account.
> 
> That's D'Alusio... and the guy on the left, is that the guy who runs the wintunnel video project?


I'd be cackling too if I were in Switzerland, riding on an expense account! Or almost anywhere, riding on an expense account! Must be nice!


----------



## Rashadabd

tyrich88 said:


> I'd be cackling too if I were in Switzerland, riding on an expense account! Or almost anywhere, riding on an expense account! Must be nice!


Exactly, they make and ride bikes for a living.... They should be in a constant state of euphoria if you ask me.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> The Madone is still winning in the looks department for me. Part of the reason I like the current venge so much is the way it looks and if that is the new one they are getting rid of that aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are right.


Right now, it's a toss-up in the looks battle between the new Madone and the new Foil. I won't be able to call it on which one is the cooler bike until we know more about the weight, features, and ride quality, but isospeed on aero road bike sounds pretty amazing. Scott usually does an incredible job when it comes to stiffness to weight numbers though.


----------



## tyrich88

I'm wondering if they will end up pulling these pics down?


----------



## Rashadabd

tyrich88 said:


> I'm wondering if they will end up pulling these pics down?


Doubt it, they will probably be testing it under pro riders soon. The release is near. So far, it seems like the new Madone looks like the old Venge, the new Venge looks like the current Canyon Aeroroad, and the new Foil looks like the current Pinarello F8. Not a ton of originality, but I still really like what I've seen thus far.


----------



## tyrich88

Well when the stumpjumper was released there were some pics that popped up like 2 days before the actual release and they got removed from MTBR.


----------



## Rashadabd

tyrich88 said:


> Well when the stumpjumper was released there were some pics that popped up like 2 days before the actual release and they got removed from MTBR.


The spyshot thing is a "thing" now and part of the buildup to an official release. There were a number of early photos of bikes like the Emonda and Diverge all over this site before their release. They are all still up if you search for them.


----------



## thumper8888

tyrich88 said:


> I'd be cackling too if I were in Switzerland, riding on an expense account! Or almost anywhere, riding on an expense account! Must be nice!


I recognized their expressions because I once got to ride in France on the expense account. I laughed just like that for three full weeks, and especially hard at meals. The only time I wasn't cackling was on the way up Ventoux. That was deeply unpleasant even on someone else's dime.


As to the guy who said he can go ahead and get an aeroad, I'd wait for better photos. This will inevitably cost four figures more, and may not be much if any more aero, but it will be better engineered.... and we are hardly seeing the bulk of what it will offer.


----------



## tranzformer

tyrich88 said:


> I'm wondering if they will end up pulling these pics down?


Can't pull it down. Are uploaded through a third party hosting website and I have download copies of the images. Once something goes online it is out in the open forever basically.


----------



## vertr

Rashadabd said:


> Doubt it, they will probably be testing it under pro riders soon. The release is near. So far, it seems like the new Madone looks like the old Venge, the new Venge looks like the current Canyon Aeroroad, and the new Foil looks like the current Pinarello F8. Not a ton of originality, but I still really like what I've seen thus far.


We haven't see much at all of the Venge. Specialized has a really defined brand image and shape for their frames so I guarantee you that it will look just like a Specialized when we actually see it. The Venge defined this genre of bikes.


----------



## thumper8888

Even when a company wants to control the rollout of a new product, that hardly trumps someone's right to take photos in public... and any forum that would pull them down would be in the pocket of the company and not worth following.

This is why car companies (and now Scott, it looks like) disguise prototypes with weird camo paint jobs and taped- or glue-on bits.


----------



## TricrossRich

tranzformer said:


> Can't pull it down. Are uploaded through a third party hosting website and I have download copies of the images. Once something goes online it is out in the open forever basically.


I've downloaded as well... and now they're on instagram.


----------



## tyrich88

Well so have i... DUH
I'm just saying. Pics got pulled off of MTBR pretty quick of the stumpy. 
Either way, I just hope to see more pics REAL soon!


----------



## TricrossRich

I just got so souped... I was investigating all of the Specialized instagram accounts I have and on Chris Yu's account he posted a picture of a bunch of Tinkoff ideas about to go out for a ride.. I looked at Sagan's frame and it had the same seat stays the the picture in this spy shot... I'm thinking to myself no way, Sagan was testing it on a group ride / warm up today prior to the start of the race tomorrow. Then as I look at the other bikes.. I realize that they all have the same design and I realize they're on Shiv's... they were probably practicing for the team time trial. DOH!


----------



## thumper8888

Rashadabd said:


> Doubt it, they will probably be testing it under pro riders soon. The release is near. So far, it seems like the new Madone looks like the old Venge, the new Venge looks like the current Canyon Aeroroad, and the new Foil looks like the current Pinarello F8. Not a ton of originality, but I still really like what I've seen thus far.


My man! I was thinking kind of the same thing... you're more accurate, but I was laughing at the idea that Madone moved sharply in the direction of the venge, and the venge kind of moved toward the last madone a little. The Foil does indeed have some f8... the S5 just stole from..... well, the S5....though i guess it did get some Kamm from the last madone.
For anyone who just enjoys seeing INTERESTING new bikes, this is an embarrassment of riches. Its not like a year when, say, a new tarmac and R5 pop out. Fine bikes, but for conventional models like that its all about mainly modest refinements ...... For aero frames this is only the second generation so there have been plenty of design elements to explore.
I really think they are getting down to the last 5 watts or so that can possibly be squeezed out of a UCI-legal frame, though, so from now on refinements will be more about things like ride quality (Madone seems to already be moving aggressively on that), torsional stiffness, bottle integration, weight etc
Probably more thinking will go into bar/stem/instrument integration etc too ... theyre already down that road, but its unclear how these bar-stem systemss for say the new madone and venge are going to work out for the riders who need spacers, for example. And the S5 bar, which I'm riding now, while not nearly as odd to deal with as some testers have claimed, is not exactly the perfect solution either.


----------



## tranzformer

Is that the rear brake?


----------



## Rashadabd

vertr said:


> We haven't see much at all of the Venge. Specialized has a really defined brand image and shape for their frames so I guarantee you that it will look just like a Specialized when we actually see it. The Venge defined this genre of bikes.


Maybe, maybe not we'll see.


----------



## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> My man! I was thinking kind of the same thing... you're more accurate, but I was laughing at the idea that Madone moved sharply in the direction of the venge, and the venge kind of moved toward the last madone a little. The Foil does indeed have some f8... the S5 just stole from..... well, the S5....though i guess it did get some Kamm from the last madone.
> For anyone who just enjoys seeing INTERESTING new bikes, this is an embarrassment of riches. Its not like a year when, say, a new tarmac and R5 pop out. Fine bikes, but for conventional models like that its all about mainly modest refinements ...... For aero frames this is only the second generation so there have been plenty of design elements to explore.
> I really think they are getting down to the last 5 watts or so that can possibly be squeezed out of a UCI-legal frame, though, so from now on refinements will be more about things like ride quality (Madone seems to already be moving aggressively on that), torsional stiffness, bottle integration, weight etc
> Probably more thinking will go into bar/stem/instrument integration etc too ... theyre already down that road, but its unclear how these bar-stem systemss for say the new madone and venge are going to work out for the riders who need spacers, for example. And the S5 bar, which I'm riding now, while not nearly as odd to deal with as some testers have claimed, is not exactly the perfect solution either.


It made me chuckle as well, but it's fun to see the manufacturers doinf some different things. I am really like what I've seen from the Foil and Madone. I hope Specialized brings it with the Venge too.


----------



## TricrossRich

As further proof that those pics ware legit... they got posted into the SBCU FB group and were promptly deleted by the admins... hmm the plot thickens.


----------



## thumper8888

Further minor clue: the vehicle in the photo is a Citroen.
Which only means its not in the US... So it was almost certainly taken at the Dauphine or in Switzerland....Still we could still be weeks away. It would be different if it were under a pro rather than s factory guy.... And its painted stealthily, not exactly a sure sign that one is about to pop up tomorrow under Cavendish.


----------



## thumper8888

And i found the original source of the photo: its on T-Saxo Twitter feed... With this caption: @tinkoff_saxo: The @iamspecialized experts are paying us a visit at #TdS2015 @tds before the important 5.1k prologue #TinkoffSaxo http://t.co/ZzFOqht0zA


----------



## kevra83

If that really is what the new 2016 Specialized Venge will look like, despite the pink color then I'll be quite impressed. The down-tube new angle almost give it a similar look to the Specialized Shiv TT / TRi bike head tube design. Some things I've found out from my friend who's a general store manager for a specialized dealer said that either expert / pro frame-sets / bikes or S works should be all thru-axles on the road bikes for 2016. If that's true, then It's going to be a little tough because wheel-sets will be playing a huge change down the road then. The Diverge already has it, so we'll see... 2016 launch on the road bikes is going to be crazy I think.


----------



## tranzformer

Saw this posted on another bike forum.




























https://www.google.com.tw/patents/US20140265222






















https://www.google.com.tw/patents/US20140265228


----------



## mile2424

I knew that bike I saw D'Aluisio riding had the cutout in the downtube!


----------



## mile2424

I guess the question with the real photo is whether that bike features the aero frame and the rim brakes which it certainly looks like. Where does this put the brakes on the non hydraulic rim version?


----------



## tranzformer

mile2424 said:


> I knew that bike I saw D'Aluisio riding had the cutout in the downtube!




Yeah good call. Will have to wait for the official unveil, but it looks like too much is going on with the frame.


----------



## thumper8888

Well, the drawings are spot on for the odd looking bits on the fork and seat tube of the bike D'alusio has in the photo... and the cutout is spot on for mile2424's fortuitous sighting ... the frame shape is probably otherwise fairly different from the drawings... the photo clearly shows the seat stays in a different position and the top tube is straight.
the drawings look like they were done part way through the designing of the bike, when they were still in the mode of the current Venge shape ... they seem to have move away from that shape generally but they have stuck with the cutout and brake type and location.
The brakes are really, really odd. A lot of lever arm there .... the fork and the seat tube will really have to be robust around the mounts to handle the torque off those things.
I predicted the dropped downtube and lower seat stays months ago... but hydraulic rim brakes, who saw that coming?
We need to brace for a massive hurricane of marketing. Strapping on the waders now.


----------



## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> Well, the drawings are spot on for the odd looking bits on the fork and seat tube of the bike D'alusio has in the photo... and the cutout is spot on for mile2424's fortuitous sighting ... the frame shape is probably otherwise fairly different from the drawings... the photo clearly shows the seat stays in a different position and the top tube is straight.
> the drawings look like they were done part way through the designing of the bike, when they were still in the mode of the current Venge shape ... they seem to have move away from that shape generally but they have stuck with the cutout and brake type and location.
> The brakes are really, really odd. A lot of lever arm there .... the fork and the seat tube will really have to be robust around the mounts to handle the torque off those things.
> I predicted the dropped downtube and lower seat stays months ago... but hydraulic rim brakes, who saw that coming?
> We need to brace for a massive hurricane of marketing. Strapping on the waders now.


I'm not really loving the look right now to be honest, but I often have a hard time getting an accurate feel for how something will look from sketches and spy photos. That being said, I like the look of the Foil the most right now, but I'm not sold on the rear brake being under the bike. That kind of leaves the new Madone as the most intriguing all around prospect at this point. I really like the integrated brakes and the handlebars, etc. I am excited to what my final impressions are once we get the full picture on each bike.


----------



## thumper8888

It's a WAG, bit it could be that they view the hydraulic rim brakes as giving them the flexibility to transition to discs if the market clearly goes there in the next year or two.
If it doesn't, well, they stick with this, which inevitably will be marketed as offering more power and control and have better aerodynamics than traditional side pulls.
I personally have never seen the need for discs but ... the market may dictate otherwise. For the front, it would be simply to, say, a year from now, change the fork to accommodate hydraulic discs and the rest would already be in place. And for rear, do away with the brake mount and hydraulic line exit on the seat tube, and put a rear disc mount in place and run the line to it. Seems like all that would be pretty straightforward...and wouldnt require major redesign of the bike out of its normal design cycle,


----------



## NealH

thumper8888 said:


> It's a WAG, bit it could be that they view the hydraulic rim brakes as giving them the flexibility to transition to discs if the market clearly goes there in the next year or two.
> If it doesn't, well, they stick with this, which inevitably will be marketed as offering more power and control and have better aerodynamics than traditional side pulls.
> I personally have never seen the need for discs but ... the market may dictate otherwise. For the front, it would be simply to, say, a year from now, change the fork to accommodate hydraulic discs and the rest would already be in place. And for rear, do away with the brake mount and hydraulic line exit on the seat tube, and put a rear disc mount in place and run the line to it. Seems like all that would be pretty straightforward...and wouldnt require major redesign of the bike out of its normal design cycle,


My thoughts exactly. I am still not convinced we will see a completely new Venge for 2016. I think the RIM, indicated in the UCI approved list, is merely the existing bike with disc brakes and maybe with through axels to further increase stiffness. The platform would be there and it buys them time to spend more development time on a completely new frame. But I'm not going to ponder over this because we will know in about two weeks.


----------



## taodemon

Those brakes are pretty hideous looking. Definitely leaning madone unless the new ugly venge significantly out performs it. I was holding off on making some upgrades to my current venge in case the new one blew me away but that isn't looking to be the case right now. We will know for sure soon enough though.


----------



## 1Butcher

IMG-20150614-WA0002_zpstl6u4od2.jpg Photo by Ritxis | Photobucket

Seems like it is already here. So the time is ticking for the official unveiling.


----------



## MMsRepBike

god that thing is ugly as sin.


----------



## 1Butcher

Ugly is the new Black


----------



## Rashadabd

Interesting.... I like it better than the sketches, I am curious about the brake location and set-up, but I can't say I consider it to be a good looking bike. If it rides well and is priced right, I would ride it, but I wouldn't choose it over the new Madone or Foil at this point. In fact, given Specialized's standard pricing, I would probably choose the Fuji Transonic or Giant Propel over this given the great value that the Fuji and Giant are.


----------



## thumper8888

Rashadabd said:


> Interesting.... I like it better than the sketches, I am curious about the brake location and set-up, but I can't say I consider it to be a good looking bike. If it rides well and is priced right, I would ride it, but I wouldn't choose it over the new Madone or Foil at this point. In fact, given Specialized's standard pricing, I would probably choose the Fuji Transonic or Giant Propel over this given the great value that the Fuji and Giant are.


I wouldn't say that it's ugly. And frankly, the whiners can get used to faired-in stems, aero bars, and hidden cables and brakes. Writing is on the wall now, not just with specialized.
It's not a thing of unalloyed beauty like the current Venge, but it's better than the drawings.
If it's functional, handles well, hits good aero numbers, the brakes work exceptionally well etc, people will buy it, maybe even me in a year or two. But the jury is still waaaaay out ... need to see independent wind tunnel numbers, get reviews in and read between the usual industry cheerleading in those reviews, etc.
I think it actually looks OK here, very similar to a 2015 S5. But this is a really dark photo and the bike is black...which are things that are kind of hiding the brakes and detail about the stem area....In light colors or red the brakes might start to look more hinky. 
Still hunkered down in my foxhole, shaking as I wait for the feared Specialized marketing onslaught... I can hear them in their trench attaching bayonets and laughing like D'alusio was in that photo.


----------



## taodemon

Ok, so the brakes dont look quite as bad in this last picture (still ugly though) but wtf is up with where the stem connects to the head tube? I hope there are performance gains for all that ugliness.


----------



## tranzformer

NealH said:


> My thoughts exactly. I am still not convinced we will see a completely new Venge for 2016. I think the RIM, indicated in the UCI approved list, is merely the existing bike with disc brakes and maybe with through axels to further increase stiffness. The platform would be there and it buys them time to spend more development time on a completely new frame. But I'm not going to ponder over this because we will know in about two weeks.


Any reason you are still so adamant that there won't be a new Venge this year?


----------



## thumper8888

I can't read what looks to the be rider's name on the seat stay, but the color stripe on the fork of the tarmac beside it on the roof is .... Etix-Quickstep. That narrows it down pretty sharply.
Clearly there will be some photos of it in action at Switzerland today.


----------



## taodemon

so people don't have to click on the link:


----------



## thumper8888

QUOTE: "Ok, so the brakes dont look quite as bad in this last picture (still ugly though) but wtf is up with where the stem connects to the head tube? I hope there are performance gains for all that ugliness.Æ


that's an area of high drag, they want to fill it in... its a more elaborate version of the little rotating plastic steerer tube fairing at top of current Venge.
And, this is just a wild guess, it also may give a fraction better curve to whatever line they're running to the rear brake.... which I'm still trying to figure out... this is a 9070 setup, so where is the hydraulic stuff?
Some of the weirdness that catches the eye, if you look carefully, is in the bars, which may not look quite like that with a rise setup that is for more normal riders, dunno.
The brake fairings on the fork are not something any of us are used to, but I can tell you what they're going to say -- that setup turns what is usually an aero negative -- front brake calipers -- and turns it into a net gain by filling in all that space there between the fork and downtube.
It would not just eliminate the drag from the brakes, but lower the drag overall.
The rear ones, meanwhile, may well be behind the water bottle.
I just can't imagine that there was all that much drag left to clean up, at least from yardstick frames like the S5 and Canyon.... but they are hitting all the licks trying... and even if it claws back only 2 watts from the S5, all of it will be cited in the ads and releases.


----------



## MMsRepBike

looks like maybe Cav's name on the bike?


----------



## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> looks like maybe Cav's name on the bike?



It would make sense. Surely they're putting it under him for its debut. And the frame seems to be his size, meaning pretty small... think about how much the downtube is dropped on this new design, then look at the head tube length. Seat height and wheelbase also seem to match up well with photos of his white and green 2015.

The only thing throwing me a little is the Shimano crankset. I thought they were using a different manufacturer for that.


----------



## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> The only thing throwing me a little is the Shimano crankset. I thought they were using a different manufacturer for that.


FSA right? The bike behind it has an FSA crankset.


----------



## taodemon

The bike behind is a tarmac, but definitely an etixx tarmac.


----------



## thumper8888

The bulge at the stem/top tube joint might also be more pronounced on the smallest frame size, as someone pointed out on another forum. Which would make sense because dropping the downtube as much as they have could on the small frames make the head tube too short to be viable without building it up on top.
This is a mystery that may have to wait because D'alusio is on a pretty small frame size too.


----------



## dc503

thumper8888 said:


> It would make sense. Surely they're putting it under him for its debut. And the frame seems to be his size, meaning pretty small... think about how much the downtube is dropped on this new design, then look at the head tube length. Seat height and wheelbase also seem to match up well with photos of his white and green 2015.
> 
> The only thing throwing me a little is the Shimano crankset. I thought they were using a different manufacturer for that.


Cav switched to a DA crank earlier in the season despite them being an FSA team


----------



## Superdave3T

tranzformer said:


> Can't pull it down. Are uploaded through a third party hosting website and I have download copies of the images. Once something goes online it is out in the open forever basically.


There are no accidents.
-SD


----------



## Devastazione

It's an ugly pick but boy the bike looks good already...


----------



## spdntrxi

that stem/toptube deal better save like 20watts because it's fugly


----------



## thumper8888

Cav was on a 2015 today. So either the bike in the photo was under someone else, or he's waiting for a sure fire sprint stage to debut it and just had it on the car for a backup today.

So the wait for details continues...


----------



## TricrossRich

dc503 said:


> Cav switched to a DA crank earlier in the season despite them being an FSA team


Yea...I'd imagine that Cav, being one of the top names, has something in his contract that he can ultimately use whatever product he wants to use to win... regardless of sponsorship obligations. Its quite common in individual sports like Golf. 

Early in the season he had a few dropped chains going into saints and that's when he changed.


----------



## taodemon

Are there even any sprint stages in the TDS? On the website all I saw were "hill" stages.


----------



## tranzformer

taodemon said:


> Are there even any sprint stages in the TDS? On the website all I saw were "hill" stages.


Not really compared to TdF. Maybe stages 6, 7? and definitely 9.


----------



## HaroldC

thumper8888 said:


> The only thing throwing me a little is the Shimano crankset. I thought they were using a different manufacturer for that.


He was, until he dropped his chain in two races in the beginning of the season and was out for the sprint finishes.


----------



## HaroldC

jbrandt said:


> I kind of wish the "there will be a new Venge" group could bet beers against the "there will not be a new Venge" group and then we could all sit around a drink beers while talking about bikes some more (because that sounds awesome).


It's a good thing I didn't take you up on that bet. It sure looks like the 2016 Venge *will* be a hydraulic rim brake...........to go with a new frame.


----------



## thumper8888

At this point, I also have to note that there are storylets up in various places on the Madone. But none, including cyclingnews or the most likely place,s like Velonews, bikerumor, even have the photos up this, let alone the patent drawings, which are apparently public domain.
Smacks of all being in the tank and signing a non-disclosure in return for access at the unveiling event.


----------



## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> At this point, I also have to note that there are storylets up in various places on the Madone. But none, including cyclingnews or the most likely place,s like Velonews, bikerumor, even have the photos up this, let alone the patent drawings, which are apparently public domain.
> *Smacks of all being in the tank and signing a non-disclosure in return for access at the unveiling event.*


Yup exactly. I don't even frequent those places that much any more, just because I know forums (like here and others) will get the information out first. Velonews did run an article about the new Trek Madone though. 

But yeah, they are all in bed with Specialized on this one. I know, because I sent "tips" tp a few of those places with pictures of the frame and patent link. No postings by them regarding that stuff.


----------



## jcgoobee

Ahillock said:


>


No way......


----------



## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> Yup exactly. I don't even frequent those places that much any more, just because I know forums (like here and others) will get the information out first. Velonews did run an article about the new Trek Madone though.
> 
> But yeah, they are all in bed with Specialized on this one. I know, because I sent "tips" tp a few of those places with pictures of the frame and patent link. No postings by them regarding that stuff.


You'd think at least Bikerumor would do it. It's like all they print now is news releases.... and uh, butt kisses of, like, 20 more obscure makers of traditional steel frames every week, four reports on the latest 1X chainrings from almost equally obscure makers, and then one desginated crackpot crowd-sourced item involving electricity either coming out of mechanisms in wheels or going into it for assorted reasons.
I can't figure out who buys those steel frames they keep nattering on about. I see maybe one a year actually on the road, not counting a couple fixies when I get into NYC.


----------



## vertr

jcgoobee said:


> No way......


Welcome to 2.5 months ago.


----------



## cch

This is the new Venge. Sitting on top of the Etixx car at the Tour de Suisse.


----------



## Chader09

cch said:


> This is the new Venge. Sitting on top of the Etixx car at the Tour de Suisse.


Repost.


----------



## Stumpjumper FSR

> Originally Posted by jcgoobee View Post
> 
> No way......





cch said:


> This is the new Venge. Sitting on top of the Etixx car at the Tour de Suisse.


Is it too hard for some of you to actually read the threads before commenting?


----------



## spdntrxi

Yes...


----------



## tyrich88

HAHAHA
Anyone have any new pics? Maybe some different angles?


----------



## thumper8888

tyrich88 said:


> HAHAHA
> Anyone have any new pics? Maybe some different angles?


Well, there is this that popped up on a French site along with the other photos but with no explanation... I'm not sure this is actually it or just some generic chinese open mold frame... the seatstay attatchment looks pretty close when you make allowances for this being a larger frame than the two XS's in the other photos... But I dont see any attachment points on seatpost for brakes and the downtube, it's just hard to tell but the cutout might not be right... the crucial headtube area is lopped off or it would be obvious.
Then there is another patent drawing that's popped up with a seatstay attachment that clearly is shock-absorbing... probably something they thought about for roubaix.

View attachment 306800


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> Well, there is this that popped up on a French site along with the other photos but with no explanation... I'm not sure this is actually it or just some generic chinese open mold frame... the seatstay attatchment looks pretty close when you make allowances for this being a larger frame than the two XS's in the other photos... But I dont see any attachment points on seatpost for brakes and the downtube, it's just hard to tell but the cutout might not be right... the crucial headtube area is lopped off or it would be obvious.
> Then there is another patent drawing that's popped up with a seatstay attachment that clearly is shock-absorbing... probably something they thought about for roubaix.
> 
> View attachment 306800


No link.... ?


----------



## TricrossRich

Today should be a pure sprint day at the Tour de Suisse... I just saw Cav on the telecast and it appeared as if he was on the new bike, but the shot was from behind. The seat stays definitely looked different than a normal Venge and it was not his usual white Venge.


----------



## TricrossRich

tyrich88 said:


> HAHAHA
> Anyone have any new pics? Maybe some different angles?


I'm guessing that all of the usual cycling outlets have signed a non-disclosure agreement with Specialized so that they could test ride and write articles prior to release, so that on release day they can "break" the story.... 

If so, that means that the only way we'll see it is if someone that is spectating sees the bike and snaps pics of it.


----------



## MMsRepBike

TricrossRich said:


> I'm guessing that all of the usual cycling outlets have signed a non-disclosure agreement with Specialized so that they could test ride and write articles prior to release, so that on release day they can "break" the story....
> 
> If so, that means that the only way we'll see it is if someone that is spectating sees the bike and snaps pics of it.


You are correct. That's how I knew about this for sure weeks ago.


----------



## dcorn

TricrossRich said:


> I just saw Cav... it was not his usual white Venge.


Check the pics from yesterday, he was riding a black Venge at TDS (post 130)


----------



## TricrossRich

TricrossRich said:


> Today should be a pure sprint day at the Tour de Suisse... I just saw Cav on the telecast and it appeared as if he was on the new bike, but the shot was from behind. The seat stays definitely looked different than a normal Venge and it was not his usual white Venge.


Cav is on the new bike today... 100%

best picture I could get off the tv so far... but the sprinters have all been dropped, so I don't know how much more they'll be showing him, unless EQS can somehoe get him back on.


----------



## thumper8888

Crochard bike


Le voila! > Le nouveau Specialized Venge 2016 Hydraulique. | Trimes.org


----------



## thumper8888

That's definitely it.


----------



## mile2424

The performance numbers on this bike will be huge compared to the old Venge. There's a couple little details that also can't be seen from these spy shots.
You guys won't have to wait all the way until the tour to see all the details, that's all I can say right now. :beerchug:


----------



## MMsRepBike

mile2424 said:


> The performance numbers on this bike will be huge compared to the old Venge. There's a couple little details that also can't be seen from these spy shots.


They better be.


----------



## thumper8888

mile2424 said:


> The performance numbers on this bike will be huge compared to the old Venge. There's a couple little details that also can't be seen from these spy shots.
> You guys won't have to wait all the way until the tour to see all the details, that's all I can say right now. :beerchug:


Good to know. I'm guessing mainly due to front brakes and stem/cable cleanup it will match or go single-digit watts better than the new s5, depending on variables like the bar and wheels.
Cav's instrument is stuck out there in the wind, and he's riding what looks like current spesh aerobar, which is prob a fraction draggier than the Cervelo.


----------



## dcorn

So without seeing more pics from today, it appears the brakes will be a new hydraulic setup? Wonder what the lower models with cable brakes will look like?


----------



## tranzformer

dcorn said:


> So without seeing more pics from today, it appears the brakes will be a new hydraulic setup? Wonder what the lower models with cable brakes will look like?


You can see the front brake cable sticking out on this picture.


----------



## RkFast

Thats a time trial bike with road bike handlebars.


----------



## thumper8888

QUOTE: "So without seeing more pics from today, it appears the brakes will be a new hydraulic setup? Wonder what the lower models with cable brakes will look like?"

may not be any model like that. Normal front fork may be easy enough, but hard to imagine where a rear caliper would go. 
Executed right, this may not be unusually expensive, though no doubt some interested in just the frameset would want to swap over their current brakes.
This setup looks like it will work with all standard shifters, nothing changes in the components you have to buy except the calipers. So there could be models with groupsets at different price levels.
Or I guess they could continue selling the current one, but that doesnt seem likely.


----------



## mile2424

RkFast said:


> Thats a time trial bike with road bike handlebars.


Yes, it's called the new Venge  All kidding aside, that's definitely not a TT bike with road bars, it's just the rear seat stays that look very aero and aggressive.


----------



## MMsRepBike

tranzformer said:


> You can see the front brake cable sticking out on this picture.


I do see what you're saying... but no way. You mean to tell me that they're not smart enough to run the cable inside of the bike when the brakes are inside the back of the fork? There's no way they'd go to all that trouble to hide proprietary brakes and then just hang the wire/line out there in the air. No way. I'd bet money that all of the cables are internal, and/or hoses or whatever. Everything internal or just go home now.


----------



## tyrich88

The hoods on both of these bikes are not hydraulic dura ace hoods... atleast they dont look like it to me.


----------



## mile2424

I don't think that's a cable, just the light reflection hitting the frame.


----------



## tranzformer

I don't think it is light reflection because that whole part of the bike is in the shade when you look at the rim (front part has sunlight the rest is in the shade). 

That little sideways 'V' looking thing coming off of the fork looks very different than what we see on the bike Cav used. Maybe they have a different fork design for the hydraulic brake vs. mechanical brake? Or that picture with Chris D'Aluisio they covered up that area for the photo? I don't know, but the two areas behind the fork look vastly different to me.


----------



## TricrossRich

pics coming...


----------



## Dunbar

MMsRepBike said:


> There's no way they'd go to all that trouble to hide proprietary brakes and then just hang the wire/line out there in the air. No way. I'd bet money that all of the cables are internal, and/or hoses or whatever. Everything internal or just go home now.


It looks like just the cable end is exposed to the wind. Not the entire cable housing run which suggests it does not have hydraulic rim brakes.


----------



## thumper8888

OK, mechanical it is. That's odd stuff. Memo to self: Never again underestimate the size of the left field in D'aluiso's brain.


----------



## TricrossRich

Boom!

brakes are definitely cable actuated.. you can see the cable on the rear brakes and I'm pretty sure that you can see the groove in the back of the front brake for the cable.


----------



## thumper8888

Dunbar said:


> It looks like just the cable end is exposed to the wind. Not the entire cable housing run which suggests it does not have hydraulic rim brakes.


The thing in D'aluio's hands is a terrible photo. weird visual lines are meaningless on that photo. Its also possible but unlikley he's on a prototype. There's no paint on it, apparently... The bike on the Etix car looks clean on the head tube.


----------



## mile2424

Nice! Looking better and better!


----------



## TricrossRich

don't believe these pictures are of the same bike that Cav is on. The bike that cave is on has the rider's name sticker on the seat stay, which is also where it's shown in the shot that is on the roof of the EQS car.

This bike appears bigger and the rider's name sticker is on the top tube.... could it be Sagan? That looks like Tinkoff colored car in the background.

edit:: also the bar tape makes me think Tinkoff... what kind of pedals does Cav use? Look? Also that saddle is a prologo.


----------



## NealH

I am glad a new Venge will be released.... as I had my doubts. In any event, these close up pictures lead me to appreciate the bike more than the distant photos. The rim brakes look very nice and integrated. The stem/steerer interface looked a bit quirky in the original photo but up close, it actually looks well thought out and integrated. Hopefully their will be a formal announcement about the bike in short order. Also, hopefully it will not be any more expensive than the new Madone.


----------



## tranzformer

TricrossRich said:


> Boom!
> 
> brakes are definitely cable actuated.. you can see the cable on the rear brakes and I'm pretty sure that you can see the groove in the back of the front brake for the cable.



"Sagan"


----------



## tyrich88

tranzformer said:


> "Sagan"


 It's got a Slovak flag on the name sticker. Looks like Sagan to me too


----------



## TricrossRich

tyrich88 said:


> It's got a Slovak flag on the name sticker. Looks like Sagan to me too


agree... just didn't want to jump to that conclusion all by myself.


----------



## tyrich88

Haha well thanks for the pics Rich!


----------



## mile2424

wonder how that aero cockpit works when you need more stack?


----------



## dcorn

Stack up more aero spacers. Although it seems you'll be required to run that weird looking stem in order to run the wires/hoses/cables internally. It does look a lot cleaner than having the cables all over the place though.


----------



## tyrich88

#Slamthatstem
Who needs spacers?! haha jk


----------



## Dunbar

It looks like they are using Tri/TT style spacers.


----------



## Dunbar

Also, those sure look like hybrid style V-Brakes which aren't great and require more adjustment. I don't see anywhere to run mechanical cables so I wonder if the S-Works version will have an optional electronic-only frame.


----------



## taodemon

Picture they had on the corresponding weightweenies thread:


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> Picture they had on the corresponding weightweenies thread:
> 
> 
> View attachment 306827


I don't know man, the handlebar and stem looks like a camel or something. I am really intrigued by the hydraulic rim brakes, but that's about it on this one.


----------



## TricrossRich

Rashadabd said:


> I don't know man, the handlebar and stem looks like a camel or something. I am really intrigued by the hydraulic rim brakes, but that's about it on this one.


They're not hydraulic...


----------



## dcorn

It's so hard to judge the overall look of the bike under Cav because he's so damn small. What's he ride, a 49 or 51cm frame? It's likely to look like a completely different bike under a normal rider.


----------



## thumper8888

Rashadabd said:


> I don't know man, the handlebar and stem looks like a camel or something. I am really intrigued by the hydraulic rim brakes, but that's about it on this one.


And current standard stem/steerer/toptube joints are elegant? 
They're actually pretty crude.
We're just not used to seeing this. There's always resistance to change, but if we turned our noses up at everything new we'd still be on penny farthings.
It's not ugly, just different. 
The question is, as always with this sort of thing, does it work better in ways that outweigh downsides?


----------



## Rashadabd

dcorn said:


> It's so hard to judge the overall look of the bike under Cav because he's so damn small. What's he ride, a 49 or 51cm frame? It's likely to look like a completely different bike under a normal rider.


Hey, wait a minute buddy! I'm like the same height and ride a 52cm, we are normal people too!!!!


----------



## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> And current standard stem/steerer/toptube joints are elegant?
> They're actually pretty crude.
> We're just not used to seeing this. There's always resistance to change, but if we turned our noses up at everything new we'd still be on penny farthings.
> It's not ugly, just different.
> The question is, as always with this sort of thing, does it work better in ways that outweigh downsides?


I'm sorry, but I don't like the stem and that hump it has going on. I like what Trek, Canyon, and Scott has done better at this point. Maybe it adds something over those handlebar/stem combos, but my guess is not much in the grand scheme of things. I think the brake set-up is pretty cool, but I am pretty much "meh" on everything else right now. Maybe that will change when I see it with color, etc., but I am definitely not blown away. I would love to see a side by side, ride comparison, and wind tunnel test on the new Madone, Venge, and Foil. I also think the F8 Disc is a cool development.


----------



## Rashadabd

Here's some discussion on all of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CorqJ2QdBp8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## TricrossRich

dcorn said:


> It's so hard to judge the overall look of the bike under Cav because he's so damn small. What's he ride, a 49 or 51cm frame? It's likely to look like a completely different bike under a normal rider.


he rides a 49 normally, but he probably measures to ride a 52... they all go down a size.



thumper8888 said:


> And current standard stem/steerer/toptube joints are elegant?
> They're actually pretty crude.
> We're just not used to seeing this. There's always resistance to change, but if we turned our noses up at everything new we'd still be on penny farthings.
> It's not ugly, just different.
> The question is, as always with this sort of thing, does it work better in ways that outweigh downsides?


Agree 100%.... it all looks funky when its new, until someone beats you using it and then its just fast.


----------



## Devastazione

dcorn said:


> Stack up more aero spacers. Although it seems you'll be required to run that weird looking stem in order to run the wires/hoses/cables internally. It does look a lot cleaner than having the cables all over the place though.


Yeah,and it'll make the area fugly,pretty much like the Canyon Aerod when mortals use more spacers than the marketing pictures.


----------



## tranzformer

The interesting thing will be how much of the improvement of the new Venge over the current will be just due to frame vs also being result of stem/handlebar/wheels. There are definitely improvements with the frame.


----------



## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> he rides a 49 normally, but he probably measures to ride a 52... they all go down a size.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree 100%.... it all looks funky when its new, until someone beats you using it and then its just fast.


I am sorry guys, but how in the world is that hump going to result in "somebody beating you," particularly if they also has an aero bar and stem (if you are of the mindset that aero bars and stems make a significant difference in a real race out on the road)? Do you really believe this particular bar and stem is going affect the outcome of races????


----------



## spdntrxi

tranzformer said:


> The interesting thing will be how much of the improvement of the new Venge over the current will be just due to frame vs also being result of stem/handlebar/wheels. There are definitely improvements with the frame.


are they not advertising 5min over 40km.. which is HUGE.... Probably put it in with P5,Slice,TM01 and the like if true


----------



## MMsRepBike

tranzformer said:


> The interesting thing will be how much of the improvement of the new Venge over the current will be just due to frame vs also being result of stem/handlebar/wheels. There are definitely improvements with the frame.


I'd almost put money down saying you're not going to see these numbers. As it's been proven time and time again, the frame has very little drag. And of the drag a "frame" has the largest problem is not the frame, but the bars and everything attached to the frame. So it's just not possible to save much on a frame alone, not within the UCI design limits. Certainly not enough to make bold marketing claims.

That's exactly where the new bars/stem/etc. come in. Those are where all of the claims and gains and everything is going to come from. The lion's share.


----------



## tranzformer

spdntrxi said:


> are they not advertising 5min over 40km.. which is HUGE.... Probably put it in with P5,Slice,TM01 and the like if true


We don't know what the 5 minutes is in reference to, doesn't mention distance from what I recall. Could instead be over a typical TdF stage of ~200 km? Hard to tell at this point unless I missed it from their 5 minutes web page.

Just a rule of thumb, @ 30 mph 7.3 watts saved equals 22 seconds over 40 km.


----------



## spdntrxi

tranzformer said:


> We don't know what the 5 minutes is in reference to, doesn't mention distance from what I recall. Could instead be over a typical TdF stage of ~200 km? Hard to tell at this point unless I missed it from their 5 minutes web page.
> 
> Just a rule of thumb, @ 30 mph 7.3 watts saved equals 22 seconds over 40 km.


yeah.. true.


----------



## tranzformer

MMsRepBike said:


> I'd almost put money down saying you're not going to see these numbers. As it's been proven time and time again, the frame has very little drag. And of the drag a "frame" has the largest problem is not the frame, but the bars and everything attached to the frame. So it's just not possible to save much on a frame alone, not within the UCI design limits. Certainly not enough to make bold marketing claims.
> 
> That's exactly where the new bars/stem/etc. come in. Those are where all of the claims and gains and everything is going to come from. The lion's share.


See what numbers? 

Proven time and time again the frame has little drag? It has been shown that a typical road bike with a rider on it is around 2500-2600g. Frame alone for a regular road frame is 1000g +/- 100g. An aero frame is going to be 150-250g less than a regular road frame. That is significant reduction as that would be lead to ~15-25w (@ 30mph). 

According to Zipp, their SL-70 aero handlebars save 6.4w (@30 mph). According to Cervelo, their aero handlebar saves 7.7w (@ 30 mph). So while the handlebar might contribute to the most drag as Cervelo has shown, you can save more watts/time with an aero frame over a regular frame, than just throwing some aero handlebars on an un-aero regular road frame.


----------



## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> I'd almost put money down saying you're not going to see these numbers. As it's been proven time and time again, the frame has very little drag. And of the drag a "frame" has the largest problem is not the frame, but the bars and everything attached to the frame. So it's just not possible to save much on a frame alone, not within the UCI design limits. Certainly not enough to make bold marketing claims.
> 
> That's exactly where the new bars/stem/etc. come in. Those are where all of the claims and gains and everything is going to come from. The lion's share.


+1 to all of this. It's fine handling and stiffness aside, the current Venge was a pretty basic first try and has faded to maybe 5th or so on the "most-aero" list, but still there was very very little fat to get out of the frame shape. In the single digits at 40kph. 
The only remaining low-hanging fruit are in the bar, stem, cables, di2 junction box.
Those things will outweigh the gains from all that work they did developing the novel brake calipers.
But you have to hit all the licks on a second draft design like this. Clearly the competition isn't resting... This should beat the Trek in the tunnel. Braking quality is the first big question on my mind, then handling.
I don't care if the stem is odd, if the bike fits and it works well.
And no way is it 5 minutes faster in 40k than the current venge. That 5 minutes refers to some other distance and/or some other bike. It's having the desired speculative effect though, isn't it?
Meanwhile the muzzled bike media remains quiet. Thing is right out there in a major race and yet it doesnt exist. More savvy and effective Specialized marketing. They bought them all off with a free trip to some exotic locale for unveiling, controlling the nature of the big reveal... and almost certainly expecting all this forum activity to kind of tee it up.
Say what you will, they know how to sell bikes.


----------



## TricrossRich

Rashadabd said:


> I am sorry guys, but how in the world is that hump going to result in "somebody beating you," particularly if they also has an aero bar and stem (if you are of the mindset that aero bars and stems make a significant difference in a real race out on the road)? Do you really believe this particular bar and stem is going affect the outcome of races????


LOL.... Are we talking rational thinking, or completely unrational, I want it and I'm looking for any excuse to get it, thinking. LOL

Of course I don't think it will genuinely mean the difference between me winning or losing a race... I mean there are a million factors that go into that result. It would be impossible to say this 1 thing was the difference, but in reality every little bit, fractions of a second, do add up to real time... so yes, on some level, it does make a difference.


----------



## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> See what numbers?
> 
> Proven time and time again the frame has little drag? It has been shown that a typical road bike with a rider on it is around 2500-2600g. Frame alone for a regular road frame is 1000g +/- 100g. An aero frame is going to be 150-250g less than a regular road frame. That is significant reduction as that would be lead to ~15-25w (@ 30mph).
> 
> According to Zipp, their SL-70 aero handlebars save 6.4w (@30 mph). According to Cervelo, their aero handlebar saves 7.7w (@ 30 mph). So while the handlebar might contribute to the most drag as Cervelo has shown, you can save more watts/time with an aero frame over a regular frame, than just throwing some aero handlebars on an un-aero regular road frame.


 The comparison is old Venge vs new, or new Venge vs some other aero frame. This has nothing to do with comparisons to traditional frames. The 15-25 watts in savings you refer to, if accurate, has already been achieved with some of the first generation of aero road frames. What we're all talking about here is the second generation, after the low hanging fruit has been plucked.... in short, how much the new bike can improve from that 15-25 watts...t. A hypothetical 20 percent gain, which would be huge, off your largest number is ... 5 watts.


----------



## MMsRepBike

Here's my take on the bar and stem combo thing we're seeing develop. It's a win win and it's time to get used to it.

It's an aero win, it's a cool factor win and also an aesthetic win. In this case I don't like the look of the stem, I prefer what Scott did with that flip up rubber fairing thing behind the stem. It's not going to be long before seeing a bike with cables all hanging out in front will look ancient or whatever. 

Aero is the name of the game and this is just part of the evolution. These integrated setups will probably be on every bike in the peloton before we know it. I do think they actually save that much time, enough to make the difference.


----------



## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> The comparison is old Venge vs new, or new Venge vs some other aero frame. This has nothing to do with comparisons to traditional frames. The 15-25 watts in savings you refer to, if accurate, has already been achieved with some of the first generation of aero road frames. What we're all talking about here is the second generation, after the low hanging fruit has been plucked.... in short, how much the new bike can improve from that 15-25 watts...t. A hypothetical 20 percent gain, which would be huge, off your largest number is ... 5 watts.


The Cervelo S5 is based off of 2011 (and before) technology and knowledge. From what I remember seeing, the S5 frame is around 7-9w faster than the current Venge. Throw in that Specialized has its own wind tunnel and what they have learned from that, they can definitely match the S5 and even improve upon that with the integrated front end, integrated brakes and tube shapes (built for bottles downtube)...etc. So, I don't see any problem with a gain of ~15w for the new Venge frame over the original Venge frame when you add all that up. Marginal gains add up. Venge was a good first attempt, but wasn't really part of the top echelon of aero road bikes.


----------



## tyrich88

In my opinion the new venge has frame shaping reminiscent of a shiv/TT bike. If it performs as such, how much of an advantage is one of those TT frames over your average aero road bike? I know the tucked positioning makes a difference, but frame to frame what is the difference?


----------



## tranzformer

tyrich88 said:


> In my opinion the new venge has frame shaping reminiscent of a shiv/TT bike. If it performs as such, how much of an advantage is one of those TT frames over your average aero road bike? I know the tucked positioning makes a difference, but frame to frame what is the difference?


Frame for frame, some of the top aero road frames are just as slippery as some decent TT frames. But as you noted, the positioning will make all the difference still.


----------



## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> LOL.... Are we talking rational thinking, or completely unrational, I want it and I'm looking for any excuse to get it, thinking. LOL
> 
> Of course I don't think it will genuinely mean the difference between me winning or losing a race... I mean there are a million factors that go into that result. It would be impossible to say this 1 thing was the difference, but in reality every little bit, fractions of a second, do add up to real time... so yes, on some level, it does make a difference.


Lol, I can roll with that I guess and I am all in when it comes to the "I want it and must get it" thing when it involves anything having to do with bikes.

That being said, I have to think this flatter system Trek is using has to be at least as aero. Scott's system is a little funky too though...

On Bicycles, and.... what else is there?: 2016 Trek Madone 9


----------



## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> The Cervelo S5 is based off of 2011 (and before) technology and knowledge. From what I remember seeing, the S5 frame is around 7-9w faster than the current Venge. Throw in that Specialized has its own wind tunnel and what they have learned from that, they can definitely match the S5 and even improve upon that with the integrated front end, integrated brakes and tube shapes (built for bottles downtube)...etc. So, I don't see any problem with a gain of ~15w for the new Venge frame over the original Venge frame when you add all that up. Marginal gains add up. Venge was a good first attempt, but wasn't really part of the top echelon of aero road bikes.


The new Venge up 15 watts over the past one, yeah I'll buy that. But two thirds of that will be in the bar/cables setup, and if you were already riding aero type bars, well, maybe you get a 9 watt total gain. 
And the gains will put it in a small cluster at the top that includes the new S5, probably the Madone, the Aeroad, maybe the new Foil, all within tiny margins of each other. It doesn't give it a huge advantage over the best of its competitors....

No, the new (2015) S5, which I ride, is completely different from the narrow-tubed, jacked-up-in-the-front flexi-flier that came before it.
It's no more based on 2011 technology than this Venge is.

Yes, Specialized has a wind tunnel, as they have cheerfully reminded us 800 different ways. They clearly have a fat R&D budget for a bike maker, and it's highly unlikely that they spent less time in the tunnel before that while working on a given bike. They just had to pay for it by the hour. If you are maxxed out on the time you spend in tunnel R&D with each bike, then having your own means means only one thing: saving money. Not that your bikes automatically will be faster.
Seriously, with each bike, at some point have to say, OK, we're done with development, let's go make the molds.
Maybe it becomes more economical for smaller things like testing helmets (and leg hair, and pony tails) and tips the R&D balance toward more tunnel time for those.
In short the actual frame here will not be more than 5 watts faster than the 2015 S5, and bar/stem stuff won't be more than a couple watts better than the S5 bar, at most. All told, with cables gone, etc. if it goes more than 10 watts slicker at 30 I'll be surprised. We're now into the realm of truly marginal gains, not miracles.
I say that as someone who is riding a new S5 but remain in the Venge camp.


----------



## robt57

thumper8888 said:


> The new Venge up 15 watts over the past one, yeah I'll buy that.


They are betting a lot of us will.


----------



## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> The new Venge up 15 watts over the past one, yeah I'll buy that. But two thirds of that will be in the bar/cables setup, and if you were already riding aero type bars, well, maybe you get a 9 watt total gain.
> And the gains will put it in a small cluster at the top that includes the new S5, probably the Madone, the Aeroad, maybe the new Foil, all within tiny margins of each other. It doesn't give it a huge advantage over the best of its competitors....
> 
> No, the new (2015) S5, which I ride, is completely different from the narrow-tubed, jacked-up-in-the-front flexi-flier that came before it.
> It's no more based on 2011 technology than this Venge is.
> 
> Yes, Specialized has a wind tunnel, as they have cheerfully reminded us 800 different ways. They clearly have a fat R&D budget for a bike maker, and it's highly unlikely that they spent less time in the tunnel before that while working on a given bike. They just had to pay for it by the hour. If you are maxxed out on the time you spent in tunnel R&D, then having your own means means only one thing: saving money. Not that your bikes automatically will be faster.
> Maybe it becomes more economical for smaller things like testing helmets (and leg hair, and pony tails) and tip the R&D balance toward more tunnel time for those.
> In short the actual frame here will not be more than 5 watts faster than the 2015 S5, and bar/stem stuff won't be more than a couple watts better than the S5 bar, at most. All told, with cables gone, etc. if it goes more than 10 watts slicker at 30 I'll be surprised. We're now into the realm of truly marginal gains, not miracles.
> I say that as someone who is riding a new S5 but remain in the Venge camp.


I'll still stand by 15w only for new Venge frame only over the old Venge. Handlebar...etc. will be on top of that. 

Curent S5 is no faster than the old S5. Just some changes to tubes for comfort and geometry.


----------



## thumper8888

Youre exactly right on the S5.... the aero gains were entirely in bars and specc'd wheels.
But the aerodynamics used were more advanced. The tube shapes are completely different. They had to be significantly fatter etc to actually allow the bike to be as stiff as a race bike should be, and handle properly.


The first generation was extremely aero even by current standards... in one sense it was ahead of its time. But in another, it was a mistake. Ay of its competitors, including Specialized, could have matched that but found that it was really really hard to make tubing shapes that slick actually work well for a bike.
Specialized was having none of that. The orginal Venge was a much better bike, really the best of the aero frames in the real world... This one builds on that. 
As to the 15 watts, we'll see, maybe. I don't know how anyone would do that test exactly, given the differences in the brakes. I guess you could just put a standard bar and stem on the new one and measure the difference?


----------



## mile2424

Any thoughts on pricing? I'm guessing 6k ish for module with frame, fork, seatpost, bar, stem, brakes, etc. Very similar to a Shiv pricing


----------



## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> As to the 15 watts, we'll see, maybe. I don't know how anyone would do that test exactly, given the differences in the brakes. I guess you could just put a standard bar and stem on the new one and measure the difference?


Yeah we won't know until Specialized makes their claims. I just thought I would go out on a limb and make a prediction. 

For my guess I was thinking: new Venge frame including the integrated brakes in the test vs. current Venge with Shimano/Sram brakes on it. Then that new Specialized aero road bar would have some additional gains on top of it. 

Just looking at the new Venge you get; a few watts from hidden front brake, a few watts from gap filled between fork and down tube, a few watts from new down tube, a few watts from hidden rear brake, a few watts from new seat stays, a few watts from no exposed cables, a few watts from new head tube?, a few watts from new seatpost/seat post binder. You add all of those marginal gains and I can realistically see the number I mentioned above just from the frame improvements. 

Throw in that new stem and handlebar (is that a new Aerofly?) and you would have some more gains. I have no idea what aero benefit that stem and aero spacers have over the traditional ones. I haven't seen any data on the Aerofly compared to traditional road bars and not sure if this is a new version, but that could be another 6-8w from that and whatever you get from the stem and headset spacers. All together, this 'module' (frameset, stem, aero handlebar, brakes...etc.) of the new Venge wouldn't surprise me if it was +~20-25w improvement over the current Venge (taking into account same wheels).



thumper8888 said:


> The first generation was extremely aero even by current standards... in one sense it was ahead of its time. But in another, it was a mistake. Ay of its competitors, including Specialized, could have matched that but found that it was really really hard to make tubing shapes that slick actually work well for a bike.
> 
> Specialized was having none of that. The orginal Venge was a much better bike, really the best of the aero frames in the real world... This one builds on that.


The current S3 is a better bike than the original S5 before they changed it. Only 3-4w slower if I recall, but stiffer and more comfortable (R-series rear end). That S3 is a great frame.


----------



## tranzformer

Also forgot, S3 is significantly cheaper to boot!

For the new Venge pricing? I have no idea. Depends exactly how they sell it. Do they just do (1) frame + fork + seat post + integrated brakes, or do they also include (2) the stem + handlebar + crank? Current Venge is $3,500. Current S5 is $4,500 and Felt AR FRD is $4,000. So I'd say for #1 maybe $5,000 and for #2 maybe $6,000? I'm bad at estimating pricing, but it isn't going to be 'cheap.'


----------



## mile2424

tranzformer said:


> Also forgot, S3 is significantly cheaper to boot!
> 
> For the new Venge pricing? I have no idea. Depends exactly how they sell it. Do they just do (1) frame + fork + seat post + integrated brakes, or do they also include (2) the stem + handlebar + crank? Current Venge is $3,500. Current S5 is $4,500 and Felt AR FRD is $4,000. So I'd say for #1 maybe $5,000 and for #2 maybe $6,000? I'm bad at estimating pricing, but it isn't going to be 'cheap.'


Sounds about right. I could see them only offering it with the complete package.


----------



## mile2424

anyone else notice how the downtube seems to taper from a knife edge near the head tube down to a wider kamn tail down near the BB junction?


----------



## tyrich88

yeah i noticed that too. And i would bet they would offer the frameset with integrated brakes, frame, fork, seatpost, stem and bars. No cranks. That's just my thoughts though


----------



## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> Also forgot, S3 is significantly cheaper to boot!
> 
> For the new Venge pricing? I have no idea. Depends exactly how they sell it. Do they just do (1) frame + fork + seat post + integrated brakes, or do they also include (2) the stem + handlebar + crank? Current Venge is $3,500. Current S5 is $4,500 and Felt AR FRD is $4,000. So I'd say for #1 maybe $5,000 and for #2 maybe $6,000? I'm bad at estimating pricing, but it isn't going to be 'cheap.'


This all sounds more or less on target... they will prob sell with brakes, fork, seatpost... bar could go either way I guess. There's no majic to buying that seperate. Even the S5 framset comes without their proprietary bar.
They're going to run into significant resistance if price goes up more than the current frame plus the cost of 9000 calipers plus, I dunno, a couple hundred for bling factor.
It will take a couple hundred dollars more in labor to build it and what, 100 in materials? on top of current Venge... which at 3,750 has the usual fat Specialized margin built in.
Maybe $4,750 to start, then once the cream has been skimmed from must-have folks, it drops to $4,250.
The amount of money the premium companies get for these things is ... I dunno, shocking. There is of course R&D, marketing etc etc, but a standard high end frame - let's pick on the F8, probably has $200-300 of carbon in it and $400 or $500 in labor, paint and small parts.


----------



## tyrich88

I'm just hoping this new design trickles all the way down to the bottom of the line Venge, Unlike the new tarmac, which only goes down to expert. I just feel like it should go all the way down, personally.


----------



## taodemon

The Tarmac situation is kind of crappy because unless you get an expert or above you aren't even getting their 10r carbon which the venge starts with on its entry model. You also only get the "new" frame on expert or higher. I could see them pulling something similar with the venge minus the 10r bit. Hopefully prices don't go up too much. As a current expert I think is about 4k which while not cheap, at the same time isn't completely ridiculous like the sworks versions for those without the required cash flow.


----------



## thumper8888

This has been an unusually sane and productive thread. Too bad we can get together for a group ride. Say, in France. On Specialized's expense account.


----------



## tranzformer

tyrich88 said:


> I'm just hoping this new design trickles all the way down to the bottom of the line Venge, Unlike the new tarmac, which only goes down to expert. I just feel like it should go all the way down, personally.


I would think they would keep the shape of the bike the same (you pay for the molds just once) and the type of carbon fiber would vary. Sort of like what Felt has done with their AR line. You have the high end FRD, mid line frame and then the lower/entry level. The mold being the same helps recoup the up front costs faster. Then you use the fancy expensive carbon in the high end frames and the cheaper carbon in the entry level version. Doesn't make sense to make multiple molds (outside of size) for the Venge.



thumper8888 said:


> This has been an unusually sane and productive thread. Too bad we can get together for a group ride. Say, in France. On Specialized's expense account.


+1. That sounds like something I would be down for. I promise I would be smiling the whole time except for when suffering up a climb!



thumper8888 said:


> on top of current Venge... which at 3,750 has the usual fat Specialized margin built in.


The S-Works starts at $3,500 ($3,750 for special Sagan version) and the pro is $2,500. But it is definitely crazy to think of the market up cost on frames. I realize they have to cover the costs you mention, leave room for profit and leave room for profit for their dealers. But still, the mark up is quite impressive!


----------



## Chader09

First official shots and info from a big guy:
New Specialized Venge prototype spotted - BikeRadar USA


----------



## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> I would think they would keep the shape of the bike the same (you pay for the molds just once) and the type of carbon fiber would vary. Sort of like what Felt has done with their AR line. You have the high end FRD, mid line frame and then the lower/entry level. The mold being the same helps recoup the up front costs faster. Then you use the fancy expensive carbon in the high end frames and the cheaper carbon in the entry level version. Doesn't make sense to make multiple molds (outside of size) for the Venge.
> 
> 
> 
> +1. That sounds like something I would be down for. I promise I would be smiling the whole time except for when suffering up a climb!
> 
> 
> 
> The S-Works starts at $3,500 ($3,750 for special Sagan version) and the pro is $2,500. But it is definitely crazy to think of the market up cost on frames. I realize they have to cover the costs you mention, leave room for profit and leave room for profit for their dealers. But still, the mark up is quite impressive!


Yeah, we pretty much get robbed due to our addiction. That's why I have a bit of a soft spot in my heart for brands like Felt, Giant, Fuji, and Norco. They produce high quality bikes, offer lifetime warranties and all the bells and whistles, but almost always price their bikes more reasonably than Specialized, Trek, Pinarello, Colnago, etc. To that point, I personally think the Propel is still pretty impressive, particularly if you slap an aero bar and stem on it, I think the Transonic is an almost ridiculous value (particularly when you are talking the 2.8 or 2.9), and the AR has some cool features and pretty darn good price points for what you are getting. All in all though (and I know I will probably get blasted for this in here), if I have to choose the coolest aero bike out there, I am choosing the new Madone based on everything we have seen right now. It's just too good looking, has a ton of new features like the Venge and Foil, and should be available at different price points (Madone 5 Series frames have typically been around the $2500 mark). I actually have a hard time looking away from the thing or avoiding drooling when I do:

Trek Madone 9 2016 sous toutes les coutures - Matos vélo, actualités vélo de route et tests de matériel cyclisme


----------



## kookieCANADA

Chader09 said:


> First official shots and info from a big guy:
> New Specialized Venge prototype spotted - BikeRadar USA


This looks a lot better than the other pictures I've seen. Only beef for me is that stem/handlebar area, just looks odd.


----------



## mile2424

so looks like Sagan is using the normal aerofly bars and Cav is using some new praying mantis style ones.....

I'm assuming you must use this stem and bar combo to keep the wires completely hidden?


----------



## taodemon

It could be that strange bar on Cav's is to get the right height since he uses such a small frame? Sagan's did seem to have the normal aerofly bar which looks better


----------



## TricrossRich

tranzformer said:


> I would think they would keep the shape of the bike the same (you pay for the molds just once) and the type of carbon fiber would vary. Sort of like what Felt has done with their AR line. You have the high end FRD, mid line frame and then the lower/entry level. The mold being the same helps recoup the up front costs faster. Then you use the fancy expensive carbon in the high end frames and the cheaper carbon in the entry level version. Doesn't make sense to make multiple molds (outside of size) for the Venge.


Right... except Specialized has a history of doing this when new versions of the bike come out... The molds from the old Venge are already paid for, so they continue to use those for a "sport" and "elite" line, but use the new molds for "Expert", "Pro" and "SWorks" lines. They've done this for both the Tarmac and Roubaix lines through the last few updates. The difference is, they also typically offer 3 different carbon layups in the Tarmac and Roubaix while the Venge has always used just 2, except for the McLaren Venge. I do agree with you though, in that, it might not make sense to do this for the Venge as the aero market is a significantly smaller market compared to the Tarmac and Roubaix lines. Aero bikes are kind of a niche.. people either get it and love them or they don't and hate them so from a cost benefit aspect it might not make sense to continue doing the old frame.





tranzformer said:


> +1. That sounds like something I would be down for. I promise I would be smiling the whole time except for when suffering up a climb!


I'm in too... I'm gonna have to bring my "OLD" Venge.





tranzformer said:


> The S-Works starts at $3,500 ($3,750 for special Sagan version) and the pro is $2,500. But it is definitely crazy to think of the market up cost on frames. I realize they have to cover the costs you mention, leave room for profit and leave room for profit for their dealers. But still, the mark up is quite impressive!


Do NOT base pricing off of this years Venge.... the pricing you see associated with this years Venge is down several hundred dollars across the board. When they reduced the pricing for 2015, I said it was because it'd be the last year before the new model came out... to continue to stimulate sales in the old model. IMO, pricing will be at least what you see for the Tarmac in each given price point + more to cover the costs of stem/bars/brakes that are all now proprietary.


----------



## TricrossRich

Today at the Tour de Suisse should be a day for the true Sprinters... so maybe we'll finally see it in action, with some real watts going through the frame.


----------



## WRM4865

New Specialized prototype spotted - BikeRadar USA


----------



## 1Butcher

repost


----------



## TricrossRich

VeloNews has decided they can no longer ignore the giant gorilla in the room.

Gallery: New Specialized Venge spotted at Tour de Suisse - VeloNews.com


----------



## TricrossRich

Just saw Sagan on today's telecast... he's on the new bike today.


----------



## dc503

TricrossRich said:


> Just saw Sagan on today's telecast... he's on the new bike today.


Just got its first win.


----------



## taodemon

dc503 said:


> Just got its first win.


It doesn't seem like that took too long but what do I know of these things. Good sign for the bike though?


----------



## thumper8888

taodemon said:


> It doesn't seem like that took too long but what do I know of these things. Good sign for the bike though?



It's good for marketing. Doesn't say much about the bike one way or the other,,, In truth, Sagan could have won that on a 5200.... But yeah, it doesn't hurt anything.


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> It's good for marketing. Doesn't say much about the bike one way or the other,,, In truth, Sagan could have won that on a 5200.... But yeah, it doesn't hurt anything.


Yup... in reality doesn't prove anything, but the marketing folks will eat it up and it will make the completely irrational side of my brain want it even more.


----------



## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> Yup... in reality doesn't prove anything, but the marketing folks will eat it up and it will make the completely irrational side of my brain want it even more.


Yes, I must admit to the same irrational weakness. All in all I'd rather it was Cavendish triggering it, though.


----------



## taodemon




----------



## tranzformer

Just to go back to the Specialized 5 Minutes website marketing thing. We don't know what the 5 minutes is in reference to or in comparison to. If it is over 40km, it would need to save ~60 watts to save 5 minutes over that distance. So if distance compared is longer, it would be less. 

I wonder if they will do something like New Venge + new handlebar/stem + Roval wheels + Evade helmet + Specialized jersey kit plus whatever else they throw into the equation. A whole system approach? Because 5 minutes over 40km from just a frame is impossible. Even if compared to a Tarmac.


----------



## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> Just to go back to the Specialized 5 Minutes website marketing thing. We don't know what the 5 minutes is in reference to or in comparison to. If it is over 40km, it would need to save ~60 watts to save 5 minutes over that distance. So if distance compared is longer, it would be less.
> 
> I wonder if they will do something like New Venge + new handlebar/stem + Roval wheels + Evade helmet + Specialized jersey kit plus whatever else they throw into the equation. A whole system approach? Because 5 minutes over 40km from just a frame is impossible. Even if compared to a Tarmac.


Yeah, by coincidence I just looked around for the wattage difference between a 55-minute and 60-minute 40k TT's and that looks like a ballpark for the numbers I was seeing. I smell some caveats coming... anyway, Tour or someone will do an aero matchup late fall on all these and we'll get more or less clean data, though Ive been suspicious they favor Canyon due to its... German-ness.


----------



## Stoneman

Specialized beat Trek to the punch for the first win in the new Venge versus new Madone matchup. Given that the stage win had a tricky finish that saw some crashes, at least we know the new Venge should handle fairly well. But I suspect Sagan could handle any bike in the peloton skillfully.


----------



## tranzformer




----------



## tyrich88

Great pics! Thanks!


----------



## mile2424

in that first shot of the standalone bike, the stem doesn't look to be the bulbous one we have seen. Makes the cockpit look pretty clean


----------



## 1Butcher

Stoneman said:


> Specialized beat Trek to the punch for the first win in the new Venge versus new Madone matchup. Given that the stage win had a tricky finish that saw some crashes, at least we know the new Venge should handle fairly well. But I suspect Sagan could handle any bike in the peloton skillfully.


But can he do a wheelie?


----------



## Dunbar

The head tube definitely looks narrow in the head-on shot of Sagan sprinting last night. The profile of the downtube looks a lot like the current Cervelo S series. It will be interesting to see how many watts the brakes and hidden cabling save. Not a fan of the current Venge's ride quality so that's the big question mark for any aero bike for me. But then again I already own one of the new S2's so I'm not in the market.


----------



## taodemon

Dunbar said:


> The head tube definitely looks narrow in the head-on shot of Sagan sprinting last night. The profile of the downtube looks a lot like the current Cervelo S series. It will be interesting to see how many watts the brakes and hidden cabling save. Not a fan of the current Venge's ride quality so that's the big question mark for any aero bike for me. But then again I already own one of the new S2's so I'm not in the market.


I've seen several people complain about the venge's ride quality but I've never had issue with it myself, but maybe that's just because I haven't done any long rides on any other road bike to compare it to. The new madone could be the most comfortable of the aero bikes if that seat thing trek uses works well (never tried it myself).

better shot of the head tube:


----------



## Dan Gerous

Good side shot of Sagan's Venge today. It does look better without the weird riser bar.


----------



## eugenetsang

The first set of spy pics were kinda iffy. But the Venge Sagan was riding actually looks pretty clean. Or maybe the swan neck stem is growing on me.


----------



## mile2424

Looking better and better. One little detail I think it's hard to see in most these shots, is that it looks like there is the obvious wheel cutout in the downtube, but there is also a smaller little relief for the brake as well. Must only be a few mm's, but wonder why they did this as opposed to just shortening the brake arm or fairing slightly.


----------



## TricrossRich

mile2424 said:


> Looking better and better. One little detail I think it's hard to see in most these shots, is that it looks like there is the obvious wheel cutout in the downtube, but there is also a smaller little relief for the brake as well. Must only be a few mm's, but wonder why they did this as opposed to just shortening the brake arm or fairing slightly.


my guess is that it is there to clear the extra thickness of the brake arm as you turn the front wheel.


----------



## spdntrxi

eugenetsang said:


> The first set of spy pics were kinda iffy. But the Venge Sagan was riding actually looks pretty clean. Or maybe the swan neck stem is growing on me.


It must be growing on you because that is still hideous from that angle


----------



## TricrossRich

taodemon said:


> I've seen several people complain about the venge's ride quality but I've never had issue with it myself, but maybe that's just because I haven't done any long rides on any other road bike to compare it to. The new madone could be the most comfortable of the aero bikes if that seat thing trek uses works well (never tried it myself).
> 
> better shot of the head tube:
> 
> View attachment 306887


Agree.. I've done a century on mine and no complaints.... The only other bikes I can compare it to were my Tricross Elite Disc and my Allex Comp. The Tricross was the least aggressive, in terms of seating position, but it was the worst to ride.... being an entirely aluminum frame with aluminum fork and disk brakes. The Allez is definitely a little harsher riding compared to the Venge, but not so bad now that I've got it on SWorks Turbo 26's. The Allez and Venge are set up exactly the same from a seating position stand point.


----------



## tranzformer

Looks like we are in a holding pattern for now until Specialized lifts the embargo for information to be released on the Venge.


----------



## tranzformer

One other thing, that new Trek Madone 9 has me quite impressed. Never thought I would ever say this, but I would actually consider that Madone 9. Lately, Trek has really been putting out some nice products. At least from the visual aspect of what we have seen so far, I think the Madone 9 looks nicer than the new Venge.


----------



## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> Looks like we are in a holding pattern for now until Specialized lifts the embargo for information to be released on the Venge.



I think it will be this week. Just looking at it from a PR standpoint (I'm usually on the receiving end of that stuff in my work) they have milked the full round of light-on-details "sighting" stories, and as you suggest there's not much more for the forums to chew over.... 
Meanwhile, by middle of next week the usual TDF chatter will begin building and reach a point where there's enough substance in it to drown out an unveiling. And there's no real race stuff going on.... so, a vacuum that needs filling.
And if it were me I'd pop it out by Wednesday or so of this week to give enough time to chew over all the technical points and claims they will be asserting before the TDF stuff takes over.
This timing then allows knowledgable mentions during the tour, and those storylets on whatever bike X rider is on etc.
Wait too late, you don't get the full exposure that's possible.


----------



## mile2424

thumper8888 said:


> I think it will be this week. Just looking at it from a PR standpoint (I'm usually on the receiving end of that stuff in my work) they have milked the full round of light-on-details "sighting" stories, and as you suggest there's not much more for the forums to chew over....
> Meanwhile, by middle of next week the usual TDF chatter will begin building and reach a point where there's enough substance in it to drown out an unveiling. And there's no real race stuff going on.... so, a vacuum that needs filling.
> And if it were me I'd pop it out by Wednesday or so of this week to give enough time to chew over all the technical points and claims they will be asserting before the TDF stuff takes over.
> This timing then allows knowledgable mentions during the tour, and those storylets on whatever bike X rider is on etc.
> Wait too late, you don't get the full exposure that's possible.


Stay tuned tomorrow  That's what I have been told.


----------



## taodemon

mile2424 said:


> Stay tuned tomorrow  That's what I have been told.


Specialized Bicycles

The bike itself seems to be 120 seconds over 40km over the tarmac sl4. New roval wheels, new skin suit, evade helm, and new sworks shoes I'm guessing combine to add up to 5 minutes (I haven't read all the details yet).

Ok, basic rundown:

Venge: 120 seconds
clx 64 + tire :35 seconds
evade: 46 seconds
skin suit: 96 seconds
new shoe: 35 seconds

I think the 120 seconds might include the 35 from the roval wheels as that would put it at 4 minutes 57 seconds. If it was just the frame alone and the wheels take away an additional 35 seconds then its 5 minutes 32 seconds that all that stuff reduces over 40k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDtmE5XnUOc&feature=youtu.be


----------



## MMsRepBike

taodemon said:


> Specialized Bicycles
> 
> The bike itself seems to be 120 seconds over 40km over the tarmac sl4. New roval wheels, new skin suit, evade helm, and new sworks shoes I'm guessing combine to add up to 5 minutes (I haven't read all the details yet).
> 
> Ok, basic rundown:
> 
> Venge: 120 seconds
> clx 64 + tire :35 seconds
> evade: 46 seconds
> skin suit: 96 seconds
> new shoe: 35 seconds
> 
> I think the 120 seconds might include the 35 from the roval wheels as that would put it at 4 minutes 57 seconds. If it was just the frame alone and the wheels take away an additional 35 seconds then its 5 minutes 32 seconds that all that stuff reduces over 40k.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDtmE5XnUOc&feature=youtu.be


So basically nothing new or special. Kind of a let down. And those v brakes are junk to boot.

Edit: Okay, I have to say one more thing:

Specialized S-Works Venge ViAS launched | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

They are claiming that there's zero bullshit. They claim that their numbers are for those that already have the best equipment and the advantage is vs. that. Bullshit meter just went off. 

What cyclists who "has the best equipment" currently would be riding a Tarmac as an aero bike? And who would be riding box section alloy wheels on an aero bike?

Listen Specialized... those with the "best equipment" already have been running aero bikes, aero wheels and your old aero helmet for a long time now. They're already wearing skin suits, which have been used for many years now, in normal races. Nothing you're "introducing" here is new, just like your "rider first" thing wasn't even close to new, just new to you.

Maybe you think your previous Venge owners don't exist? You have the audacity to get up there and say that our Bullshit meters won't go off? Then the audacity to say this "system" could have changed major races, as if the riders weren't already in aero suits and helmets and wheels?

This is just pure bullshit.


----------



## taodemon

Well the corrent venge is 45 seconds faster than the Tarmac, the new one 120 faster, seems like a noticeable difference if that is frame alone.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

There is a feature about the new bike on cyclingtips.

First Look: Specialized Venge VIAS | CyclingTips

$12,500 US with Di2. 

Like MMS said already, the brakes looks sketchy. The Giant has similar brakes and the team got their own instead. The Venge has a weird cable run as well. Hydraulic calipers would work better here IMO.


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## MMsRepBike

taodemon said:


> Well the corrent venge is 45 seconds faster than the Tarmac, the new one 120 faster, seems like a noticeable difference if that is frame alone.


It's not the frame alone. It's the frame and their best aero wheels vs a non aero frame with box section wheels. And it's not just the frame, it's the whole bike...

And read the fine print. Any "gains" from the tires in terms of aero are also added into the "wheels" number which is the actually the "frame" number. The time claimed for tires is only claimed on rolling resistance.


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## Devastazione

Taking a morning dump and then go riding : - 5000 seconds .


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## MMsRepBike

What's the weight?

It's a "few hundred grams heavier" so...


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## TricrossRich

There are lots of good pics here... the 5 minutes also represents the new shoes and skinsuit.


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## Devastazione

Pretty far from being interested in but I wonder what the trickled down Pro or Expert versions would be...like 8K Euro with Ultegra and Mavic Aksium ?


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## thumper8888

I'm a sucker for rational design, and so my first instinct this morning was to call my dealer and get on the list.
But then I started reading through all the stuff that's out there. I have to say that even by Specialized's high standards this is a masterpiece of marketing.
The adding of the various components, clothing etc into the mix muddies the bike picture considerably. I understand the point they're trying to make about aero counting, and I am reasonably certain the numbers add up. But I've got the damned helmet, I don't need shoes this year, etc. ... so, about that bike....

I like the bike better than anything else out there, but the frame alone is something like a quarter pound heavier than the new S5 I'm on now, and serious thousands of $ more. And it's still far from clear that it has a significant aero edge.
"Largely unconstrained by a weight target, D’Alusio was free to focus on aerodynamics and brake performance." That's the way one web site put it. I know that waw them, and not Spesh, but they were buying a lot of Koolaid. I know the guy is good, but surely he hasn't invented anti-gravity. At least yet. This smacks of Ford selling that Pinto with its "road-hugging weight."
Bike weight for a 56cm S-Works Venge ViAS Di2 complete bike is 16.9lb / 7.7 kg. 

OK, OK, I know that modest different in bike weight have been proven less important that aero for most courses blah blah blah. But still. And I know where it went. It went in the metal brake parts (look at the white bike to figure out where the metal is) more carbon in the BB, in the area of seat tube around brakes, and in particular the downtube area where there is that tiny relief notch for the brakes.
That's a stress riser, and there better be a well-tapered quarter-inch of high-mod there.
Even with that, I think I have a pretty good idea where these frames will break when they get a front impact. 
And the brakes. There are some weasel words floating around putting them in the league with 9000's, but no one seems to come right out and claim they're as good. I smell at least a small fish there.

And the aero: I know that this early everything comes with a grain of salt, and there has to be independent testing. But even with the stuff they've put out, it seems like it would be possible to come up with something close.
But they even made the magazine testers do all the data analysis parts of the first ride totally tricked out on the Venge, and with regular clothes, helmet, shoes, wheels on the Tarmac.
Can anyone deconflict all this apples to oranges stuff and make a reasonable estimate, based on known data, of, say, drag improvement in watts for the new Venge vs. the old one, if the old one had these wheels?
I think that's about the most fair comparison. Tarmac and box rims don't get it. I love that bike too, but the downtube is the size of a Louisville Slugger. It pushes serious air.
Still like the bike. And frankly I love the engineering and thought that went in it, and the thinking its making us all do. But man that's a metric ton of cash. Better be real numbers to back it.


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## spdntrxi

120sec over a Tarmac.. I don't remember how much faster the original Venge was compared to a Tarmac though ???


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## thumper8888

spdntrxi said:


> 120sec over a Tarmac.. I don't remember how much faster the original Venge was compared to a Tarmac though ???


But that 120 seconds includes savings from the new wheels. You can't back it out exactly by using the old Venge numbers vs. the Tarmac, because the old Venge was on a different set of wheels for that comparison... and that comparison may have had other caveats.... caveats are the heart of these marketing claims.
So here we are trying to sort through three very different frames, three wheel sets and two unrelated sets of marketing data/hype.
I'm WAG-ing at this point that maybe 15-20 seconds of the improvements are in the frame/brakes/bars/stem/cables. There just wasn't enough drag in those to begin with to wring much out of them.
And that this thing has maybe 4 watts over the S5. They wouldn't have gone to all this trouble, and added that much weight (suddenly we're back to 17-pound bikes!)without making sure that when the indy wind tunnel tests come in four months that they weren't going to get pipped. They surely stayed at it until they had at least a tiny edge over everyone in the tunnel.


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## Rashadabd

It's all interesting and the videos/commercials were fun to watch, but my sincere feelings are that you could get a new Madone, a new Foil, a Propel, a Felt AR, or a Transonic, put a decent set of aero wheels and aero handlebars on there and be right there in the running at a significantly cheaper price point alll things being equal. The guy/woman who wins the race between those bikes set up similarly will probably be the one with the better legs, lungs, and skills because we don't race in wind tunnels (not yet anyway). All the data is cool though and people that love the Venge and want it, there is absolutley nothing wrong with that either, I would just say you shouldn't let the adverstising overhype you. I think this article makes some valid points:

Can Specialized save you five minutes over 40km? - VeloNews.com

Furthermore, my guess is that many GC types will continue to ride more traditonal frames like the Tarmac, Supersix Evo, Emonda, and TCR (though those bikes will be lighter and slightly more aero than they were a generation ago) and they will still go on to claim GC wins on those bikes so long as they are fit and healthy and on a course that is ideal for their skills. So, at the end of the day....


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## MMsRepBike

thumper8888 said:


> Can anyone deconflict all this apples to oranges stuff and make a reasonable estimate, based on known data, of, say, drag improvement in watts for the new Venge vs. the old one, if the old one had these wheels?


Reasonably I'd guess the new Venge frameset will save maybe 20 seconds over the previous one. That might be too much though, maybe only like 15 seconds.

Start with their 120 number. That's against an SL4 Tarmac, NOT a new Tarmac, fully built with normal components and box section wheels. That's normal wrapped handlebars, normal stem, cables out, you know.

Now don't forget they are wrapping their aero numbers from the tires, wheels, frame, bars, everything into the 120 seconds figure.

Start subtracting. How much time do those best aero wheels they've ever made save over old school box section wheels? Now how much time does tucking all of the cables into the handlebars/stem save? And how much time does the aero bar save by itself? Don't forget to add in their aero savings for tires too. I'm guessing this leaves a fair amount less than 30 seconds left over. And that comes with several hundred grams of weight penalty and vastly inferior v brakes.

edit: They're claiming up to 104 seconds from the wheels alone. And the old Aerofly bar alone they claim to be 17 seconds. So yeah. Enjoy your Koolaid folks.


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## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> Reasonably I'd guess the new Venge frameset will save maybe 20 seconds over the previous one. That might be too much though, maybe only like 15 seconds.
> 
> Start with their 120 number. That's against an SL4 Tarmac, NOT a new Tarmac, fully built with normal components and box section wheels. That's normal wrapped handlebars, normal stem, cables out, you know.
> 
> Now don't forget they are wrapping their aero numbers from the tires, wheels, frame, bars, everything into the 120 seconds figure.
> 
> Start subtracting. How much time do those best aero wheels they've ever made save over old school box section wheels? Now how much time does tucking all of the cables into the handlebars/stem save? And how much time does the aero bar save by itself? Don't forget to add in their aero savings for tires too. I'm guessing this leaves a fair amount less than 30 seconds left over. And that comes with several hundred grams of weight penalty and vastly inferior v brakes.
> 
> edit: They're claiming up to 104 seconds from the wheels alone. And the old Aerofly bar alone they claim to be 17 seconds. So yeah. Enjoy your Koolaid folks.



You're starting to get at something here, but it still needs deconflicting. 120 seconds over SL4 and of that 104 from the wheels? Everything else aside thats 16 seconds faster than ... the SL4. So that can't be right either... because surely the old Venge was more than 16 seconds faster than SL4. It was claimed 22 watts at 40kph faster than SL3.... (remember THAT marketing slight of hand... just like now they don't want to compare current models for fear of detracting from aura of current Tarmac... and so now I'm introducing a fourth bike to the comparison free-for-all).


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## Devastazione

There you go.....talking about watts and seconds,Specialzed wins again !! Dropped the deposit yet ?
I bet something like a Giant Propel or a Canyon Aeroad can already achieve this,too bad those japs and germans can't think marketing the same way americans do.


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## Rashadabd

Devastazione said:


> There you go.....talking about watts and seconds,Specialzed wins again !! Dropped the deposit yet ?
> I bet something like a Giant Propel or a Canyon Aeroad can already achieve this,too bad those japs and germans can't think marketing the same way americans do.


More data- Can the Specialized Venge VIAS really save 5 minutes over 40kms? | CyclingTips


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## thumper8888

Devastazione said:


> There you go.....talking about watts and seconds,Specialzed wins again !! Dropped the deposit yet ?
> I bet something like a Giant Propel or a Canyon Aeroad can already achieve this,too bad those japs and germans can't think marketing the same way americans do.


Yes, the Mad Men of cycling.... There is a reason that "Death of a Salesman" is said to sum up our culture...


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## Devastazione

Rashadabd said:


> More data- Can the Specialized Venge VIAS really save 5 minutes over 40kms? | CyclingTips


Yeah that's some serious 1000 Euro worth of depriciation for the 2015 Tarmac Sworks of mine I'm trying to sell..


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## 1Butcher

How else is Specialized suppose to market this new Venge? 

They way I see it, most of you would be booted two days in your internship with the ideas you have.

I see it as just another step in the direction of making things more aero. Many believe that the aero thing is just a fad. A lot like weight, everything adds up and eventually the sum ends up being a fair amount. I believe that is what Specialized is saying.

There are many people like our long lost friend RW that does not believe any of this is true. As long as you are in a tuck position, nothing else matters. Hiding the brakes, cables, and everything else they did, is just evolution. My guess is that others will follow and soon, there will be no cables exposed on all top frames from all top manufacturers.


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## thumper8888

And now I'm looking at the 35 seconds for the tires. 
Which apparently is aero benefit rather than rolling resistance. So. It's not that the tires are faster, exactly... it's that they are faster when mounted on ... wheels made by the same company and likely designed for the shape of those particular tires.
Which means my Conti GP4000s, which have tested at the high end of what's possible for rolling resistance in a tire that doesn't flat on a twig and better than pretty much anything out there for aero when mated to Zipps, may actually be pretty much the same or faster. Who knows. 
I do know that specialized tires have, at lest right up to this minute, had a long ways to go to catch up on puncture resistance and on wear resistance.
Maybe now that Sinyard has hired away some of the brains from Conti they'll fix that. 

But really, I think the whole story here is this: We were already past any low-hanging fruit in rolling resistance of tires, aerodynamics in frames and wheels etc. So-huge-as-to-be-impossible percentage gains in those things now would still not add up to much, and I think that's what we're looking at with this bike. Marginal, single-digit watt gains from frame/brakes/etc.
This is similar to the S5, which changed its frame greatly and improved handling exponentially... but didnt wring out even another watt. Its gains came from the bars and better-spec of aero wheels. Sound familiar? Now those things are done, the low-hanging fruit plucked there.
Watch and see: The next generation of aero bikes will do almost nothing better, just weight and tweaks in handling stuff mainly.


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## Rashadabd

Here's some similar data from the Transonic (probably the most affordable of the newer competitors) for comparison sake: 2015 Fuji Transonic Aero Road Bike Unveiled, Blends Feedback from Wind Tunnel, Riders & Mechanics


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## tranzformer

tranzformer said:


> Just to go back to the Specialized 5 Minutes website marketing thing. We don't know what the 5 minutes is in reference to or in comparison to. If it is over 40km, it would need to save ~60 watts to save 5 minutes over that distance. So if distance compared is longer, it would be less.
> 
> I wonder if they will do something like New Venge + new handlebar/stem + Roval wheels + Evade helmet + Specialized jersey kit plus whatever else they throw into the equation. A whole system approach? Because 5 minutes over 40km from just a frame is impossible. Even if compared to a Tarmac.


Pats self on back...


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## thumper8888

Rashadabd said:


> Here's some similar data from the Transonic (probably the most affordable of the newer competitors) for comparison sake: 2015 Fuji Transonic Aero Road Bike Unveiled, Blends Feedback from Wind Tunnel, Riders & Mechanics


Cant be any good. Costs half as much! Frameset is $2,199 and includes seatpost and headset.
Fuji and Giant are about the best deals going... Canyon would be too if they would sell here.


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## MMsRepBike

thumper8888 said:


> And now I'm looking at the 35 seconds for the tires.
> Which apparently is aero benefit rather than rolling resistance.


You have that backwards. The 35 seconds they claim for tires is ONLY rolling resistance. The "aero benefit" from the tires is "wrapped up into the wheel data" which is "wrapped up into the frame data."

So time to rethink again.


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## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> Cant be any good. Costs half as much! Frameset is $2,199 and includes seatpost and headset.
> Fuji and Giant are about the best deals going... Canyon would be too if they would sell here.


That's how I feel as well man. I test rode one of the enry level models about 6 months back or so and it's actually a really nice ride man. More imprtantly, you can get a complete bike with the lower grade C5 carbon and Shimano 105 and crappy wheels which you would change anyway for like $1500. Slap a decent aero handlebar set-up (from ebay, etc.) and adequately performing set of affordable aero wheels on that puppy and you are set-up as well as anyone for like 1/3 to 1/2 the price. Your wind tunnel numbers would probably be similar too....


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## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> Cant be any good. Costs half as much! Frameset is $2,199 and includes seatpost and headset.
> Fuji and Giant are about the best deals going... Canyon would be too if they would sell here.


I agree. In my opinion some of the 'best' aero road frames bang for the buck right now are Felt AR1, Fuji Transonic, Cervelo S3, Canyon (but can't get in USA but good exchange rate right now), Giant Propel Advanced Pro. There might be a few I am forgetting about.


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## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> And now I'm looking at the 35 seconds for the tires.
> Which apparently is aero benefit rather than rolling resistance. So. It's not that the tires are faster, exactly... it's that they are faster when mounted on ... wheels made by the same company and likely designed for the shape of those particular tires.
> Which means my Conti GP4000s, which have tested at the high end of what's possible for rolling resistance in a tire that doesn't flat on a twig and better than pretty much anything out there for aero when mated to Zipps, may actually be pretty much the same or faster. Who knows.
> I do know that specialized tires have, at lest right up to this minute, had a long ways to go to catch up on puncture resistance and on wear resistance.
> Maybe now that Sinyard has hired away some of the brains from Conti they'll fix that.
> 
> But really, I think the whole story here is this: We were already past any low-hanging fruit in rolling resistance of tires, aerodynamics in frames and wheels etc. So-huge-as-to-be-impossible percentage gains in those things now would still not add up to much, and I think that's what we're looking at with this bike. Marginal, single-digit watt gains from frame/brakes/etc.
> This is similar to the S5, which changed its frame greatly and improved handling exponentially... but didnt wring out even another watt. Its gains came from the bars and better-spec of aero wheels. Sound familiar? Now those things are done, the low-hanging fruit plucked there.
> Watch and see: The next generation of aero bikes will do almost nothing better, just weight and tweaks in handling stuff mainly.


I was formerly using GP4000s and GP4000SII's and back in October, switched to SWorks Turbo tires (not the cottons, although I have raced those) and IMO, the Turbos are definitely better than the GP's. The grip is better and the tolling resistance is better. The question mark was flat protection and long term wear. I've had 1 flat since switching and I'm not exactly sure what caused it. I couldn't find anything stuck in the tire or anything that ha been pushed through and I've continued to use that tire since, without any further issue.... several hundred miles now. Overall tread wear seems to be basically the same... actually, the GP's seemed to never wear in the tread department, but I had 3 sidewall issues with them. 

Sorry for the thread jack, obviously this thread is about the Venge, but I think we're also starting to discuss some of the other specialized products they're marketing as a group here and comparing to current class leaders... and discuss if we should believe the hype. I was skeptical when I first got the SWorks tires... but I need tires at a time when the GP's were almost impossible to find. Since then, I've put the SWorks on 2 other wheel sets and actually bought 2 more sets on the buy 1 get 1 promotion they were having.


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## tranzformer




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## thumper8888

As rolling resistance difference, that's pretty hard to buy. In test after test the top tubies and clinchers like the conti and evo corsas were all pushed up against what seemed to be a pretty firm barrier at the low end of the rolling resistance wars and there didn't seem to be more than 1-2 watts difference. Contis carried the day for me due to consistently better wet weather performance and better aero and puncture characteristics.
We'll see I guess.


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## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> I was formerly using GP4000s and GP4000SII's and back in October, switched to SWorks Turbo tires (not the cottons, although I have raced those) and IMO, the Turbos are definitely better than the GP's. The grip is better and the tolling resistance is better. The question mark was flat protection and long term wear. I've had 1 flat since switching and I'm not exactly sure what caused it. I couldn't find anything stuck in the tire or anything that ha been pushed through and I've continued to use that tire since, without any further issue.... several hundred miles now. Overall tread wear seems to be basically the same... actually, the GP's seemed to never wear in the tread department, but I had 3 sidewall issues with them.
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack, obviously this thread is about the Venge, but I think we're also starting to discuss some of the other specialized products they're marketing as a group here and comparing to current class leaders... and discuss if we should believe the hype. I was skeptical when I first got the SWorks tires... but I need tires at a time when the GP's were almost impossible to find. Since then, I've put the SWorks on 2 other wheel sets and actually bought 2 more sets on the buy 1 get 1 promotion they were having.


I am actually a fan of Specialized saddles and newer tires as well.


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## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> How else is Specialized suppose to market this new Venge?
> 
> They way I see it, most of you would be booted two days in your internship with the ideas you have.
> 
> I see it as just another step in the direction of making things more aero. Many believe that the aero thing is just a fad. A lot like weight, everything adds up and eventually the sum ends up being a fair amount. I believe that is what Specialized is saying.
> 
> There are many people like our long lost friend RW that does not believe any of this is true. As long as you are in a tuck position, nothing else matters. Hiding the brakes, cables, and everything else they did, is just evolution. My guess is that others will follow and soon, there will be no cables exposed on all top frames from all top manufacturers.


Oh, we'd def get booted from our Koolaid internship. Look, I fully buy the aero thing. I'm sitting here looking at an S5 with a Remora on it for godsake. And specialized makes a great point here... if this were a course in cycling science -- and let's face it, D'alusio has def gone full Einstein, they need to test his hair in the Win Tunnel -- we would all be nodding.
But this is not a class at Stanford. It's the unveiling of a new bike (and shoes and skin suit) they're trying to sell. It's another step, but those steps are by what is essentially a law of nature, getting smaller and smaller. Baby steps next. Then chipmunk. Then shrew steps.

But yes, this is the shape of the future in many ways. Cables, etc., you're absolutely right.... It's great that there is a company with the juice and the will to do this sort of R&D and to back its Einsteins
Forward into a messy and interesting future.


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## MMsRepBike

Whatever you have to tell yourself man.


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## thumper8888

Just reviewed one of the old tests, the Tour one. They standardize for Zipp 404s and Zipp Vuka Sprint aero drop bars... and a hypothetical 100km course with 6,562 feet of climbing. 200 watts steady-state power, 165 pound rider, bike weight 16.5 lbs.
They were trying to get at the aero-vs-light question, hence actual climbing...
Plenty of caveats here, too, but maybe some useful info for present purpose:
Old S5 -- 4 hours 17 minutes 11 seconds. Old Venge 4:18:02. R5 4:18:27 Tarmac SL4 4:19:07.
It kind of underlines that a big part of the equation here is what course you pick.

http://www.cervelo.com/media/docs/Tour-Mag-3370aff0-217e-43b7-8024-8a305634944f-2.PDF


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## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> I was formerly using GP4000s and GP4000SII's and back in October, switched to SWorks Turbo tires (not the cottons, although I have raced those) and IMO, the Turbos are definitely better than the GP's. The grip is better and the tolling resistance is better. The question mark was flat protection and long term wear. I've had 1 flat since switching and I'm not exactly sure what caused it. I couldn't find anything stuck in the tire or anything that ha been pushed through and I've continued to use that tire since, without any further issue.... several hundred miles now. Overall tread wear seems to be basically the same... actually, the GP's seemed to never wear in the tread department, but I had 3 sidewall issues with them.
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack, obviously this thread is about the Venge, but I think we're also starting to discuss some of the other specialized products they're marketing as a group here and comparing to current class leaders... and discuss if we should believe the hype. I was skeptical when I first got the SWorks tires... but I need tires at a time when the GP's were almost impossible to find. Since then, I've put the SWorks on 2 other wheel sets and actually bought 2 more sets on the buy 1 get 1 promotion they were having.


that's all worth knowing. I'll check em out, always up for trying new stuff. The contis are trouble free for me, except that sidewall thing. They make up all that rolling resistance there, and hit a rock off center hard and it will get them. Normal stuff up the middle, no issues normally.


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## 1Butcher

I like the science aspect of marketing and I'm not so stupid to believe all they want is to sell me a bike.

If you dropped koolaid and inserted beer, I'm in.


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## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> Oh, we'd def get booted from our Koolaid internship. Look, I fully buy the aero thing. I'm sitting here looking at an S5 with a Remora on it for godsake. And specialized makes a great point here... if this were a course in cycling science -- and let's face it, D'alusio has def gone full Einstein, they need to test his hair in the Win Tunnel -- we would all be nodding.
> But this is not a class at Stanford. It's the unveiling of a new bike (and shoes and skin suit) they're trying to sell. It's another step, but those steps are by what is essentially a law of nature, getting smaller and smaller. Baby steps next. Then chipmunk. Then shrew steps.
> 
> But yes, this is the shape of the future in many ways. Cables, etc., you're absolutely right.... It's great that there is a company with the juice and the will to do this sort of R&D and to back its Einsteins
> Forward into a messy and interesting future.


IMO.. its really interesting this whole product launch... to view the whole host of marketing materials they've launched with this release. Have you guys watched the "5 minutes with" videos... they have a video with Cavendish, Jenson Button, Gordan Ramsey. At first glance, you'd say, "well what do these have to do with the bike?" Very little at the surface. I don't even think Cav's video talks about the bike... but If you really dig deep into some of the underlying messages... its all about the bike. Its about changing perceptions and advancing the craft. Caves video talks about the history of cycling... how it progresses and has evolved. He mentioned that many people view guys like Merckx as idols because they raced in wool and they were "hard-men" but he notes that they did this because that is simply the best that they had at the time, if presented with a better option, they surely would have chosen it.... the you shouldn't stick with what's considered normal simply because its how it has always been done. Then, in Jensen's button video... he references old F1 cars and how the design and aero effectiveness of them is almost a joke compared to cars of today, but it was the best of what was available back then. Similarly, if I think back to F1 cars just 10 years ago, I'd say they were prettier than what's racing now... the new shapes aren't as attractive.. until we really find out they're faster... fast becomes attractive, winning becomes attractive. In another 10 years, we may think today's F1 cars are beautiful compared to what's current, because we've grown accustomed to it... but is it faster? The progression is always happening.

Its is really marvelous marketing... its very big picture. Its selling you on the idea before they've even sold you on the product. The only downfall I can see is that these 5 minutes videos should have been released before the bike release.... really get us thinking, and talking... soften us to the idea of something new that is pushing the boundaries.


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## taodemon

I'll mention it again, old venge 45s faster than Tarmac (somewhat irrelevant how the Tarmac was setup box rims etc). New venge 120s faster than sl4 Tarmac. Now has the Tarmac really changed much in terms of aerodynamics since the first venge vs tarmac tests? The sl4 couldn't have gotten worse than the Tarmac (sl3?) the first venge was compared against, and they couldn't have gotten even worse box rims to put on it to slow it even more. The new Tarmac didn't really change much from the sl4, more material in certain parts and new seat clamp, I don't expect it would be much more aero if any than the sl4.

It would be logical that the previous comparison included the first venge with optimum wheels tires (at the time). 

75 second improvement can't all be in the wheels. Even if you remove 17s from the aerofly you still have 58 seconds of frame/no cables/wheels. How much of that do you think is an improvement from the old roval wheels and tires to the new ones? Can't be all that much. That should leave a reasonable amount from the frame and lack of cables, which should be realistic since there is only so much you can save on a frame and that already seemed to be the consensus around here before we saw the claimed numbers.

granted I watched the video early this morning while getting ready for work and haven't had the time to read all the fine print at work but they said that they were able to get shiv numbers from the venge as well as 50s on their closest competitor (of the 120s) improvement which could only mean another aero frame. Granted this is all marketing but I wouldn't expect claims of the sort if a month from now when someone runs comparative tests it would all be proven wrong. Could they be inflated sure, but it seems to be really stupid to be completely off with the claims.


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## tranzformer




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## chrisyu

Hey all, this is Chris from Specialized. Hopefully I can help answer any questions here.

We know we're making some big claims and along with that a lot of bullshit meters will be going off. Frankly, if that weren't the case we'd be surprised. We're here to be transparent. If something doesn't sound like it's adding up, hopefully we can explain. 

The 5 min claim is for the larger cycling audience that doesn't fully grasp the impact of aero. The vast majority of riders are still buying into the idea of a lightweight setup, whether that's the bike, wheels, helmet, etc...By comparing against basically last year's TdF winning setup, we wanted to drive home the point that going full in on the aero *system* can net a substantial amount of time saved in the vast majority of riding conditions. The point wasn't to conceal the aero breakdown among the pieces of the system. In fact, where possible, we've given that breakdown - which you'll see in various media write ups as well as on our site.


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## tranzformer

Chris, we would like to see some data on the new Venge vs old Venge with similar setups where possible (same wheels, stem, bars, tires...etc.). Any comparison tests against competitors yet? 'White paper' to be released?


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## Rashadabd

tranzformer said:


> Chris, we would like to see some data on the new Venge vs old Venge with similar setups where possible (same wheels, stem, bars, tires...etc.). Any comparison tests against competitors yet? 'White paper' to be released?


Hi Chris, I sincerely appreciate you replying and offering to answer questions. That's really cool of you. I echo this sentiment, however, as it seems weird at best to compare the new Venge to an old Tarmac. Are you suggesting that the GC riders you guys sponsor are now all going to be riding Venges now? If not, and they're going to continue riding Tarmacs, I have a hard time understanding the point you are making to those of us that ride regularly. The relevant comparisons seem to be new Venge vs. old Venge, new Venge vs new Madone, new Venge vs Transonic, Foil, etc. Do we get to see that data?


----------



## MMsRepBike

I would be happy with just a breakdown of the 120 seconds.

Tires
Rims
Brakes
Handlebar/Stem
Cable cleanup
Frameset


----------



## chrisyu

Understood. We have historically not published direct competitor aero comparison data, leaving that to the 3rd party tests (honest question: would you believe us if we did?). 

However, we have of course tested all the current class of aero bikes. Keeping wheels and components the same, except when integrated parts are required (e.g. bars on the Venge ViAS, S5, Canyon Aeroroad, etc...), we have measured roughly 50-55 sec over 40km saved to the prior fastest in class (though all the current crop of aero frames, original Venge included, test very tightly together - typically within a 10 sec/40km band).

In the gallery posted on this site, there is a chart from our tunnel comparing the Tarmac, Venge ViAS, as well as a select number of the fastest current aero frames - all with the same build and wheels: Specialized 5-Minute Launch | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


----------



## thumper8888

OK, thanksChris. Even while I was writing the questions, you got at some of it, though i'd like to see the scale on that chart... I do understand about the believability factor if you posted the matches in full detail. And still I'd like to understand how the 120 breaks down precisely when compared with the old Venge.

Also.... you're still walking past the elephant in the room. That Win Tunnel test of D'alusio's hair. The clock is ticking. And I think it's got a LOT more than 5:00 on it.
I mean, look, we were patient when you did ponytails. We suffered through the beard test. And the leg hair, which admittedly yielded that critical advance in English language, "Chewbacca Scale."
But we've damn well waited long enough. Tunnel him.


----------



## taodemon

MMsRepBike said:


> I would be happy with just a breakdown of the 120 seconds.
> 
> Tires
> Rims
> Brakes
> Handlebar/Stem
> Cable cleanup
> Frameset


vs the current venge if possible. Those of us that already have one need to know if the improvements justify the new significantly higher price tag.

Without getting into specifics it seems the new venge is 50-60 seconds faster than the old venge assuming it might have been slightly slower than the competitors bikes?


----------



## Devastazione

A company that stands behind it's products and has a front man writing on public forums to answer any question,this is how you keep customers coming back at you. 
Like when I got an answer from Mike McAndrews in person regarding a question about my Epic. I know Specialized Italia would have never answered so I went straight to mother land.
You know what Canyon does on our public forum ? " Oh...you broke your frame ? Ooh...sorry,go to hell". No joking.

Hats off to your company and to all of you at Specialized.


----------



## Rashadabd

chrisyu said:


> Understood. We have historically not published direct competitor aero comparison data, leaving that to the 3rd party tests (honest question: would you believe us if we did?).
> 
> However, we have of course tested all the current class of aero bikes. Keeping wheels and components the same, except when integrated parts are required (e.g. bars on the Venge ViAS, S5, Canyon Aeroroad, etc...), we have measured roughly 50-55 sec over 40km saved to the prior fastest in class (though all the current crop of aero frames, original Venge included, test very tightly together - typically within a 10 sec/40km band).
> 
> In the gallery posted on this site, there is a chart from our tunnel comparing the Tarmac, Venge ViAS, as well as a select number of the fastest current aero frames - all with the same build and wheels: Specialized 5-Minute Launch | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


I understand the contraints and I thank you for your honesty. This is helpful (I missed it somehow prior to you posting it here).


----------



## chrisyu

Haha @ testing D'Aluisio's hair. I've tried to make him do a test but he protects that hair!

I forgot to hit the earlier comment asking for a breakdown. Since the new bike is so integrated, it's near impossible to do a complete breakdown of how much, say, the bars, stem, tires, wheels contribute to the aero savings. For example, we can compare wheel aero alone, but we've designed the frame around that wheel so there are potentially advantageous interaction effects that don't come into play unless they are tested together. 

And sorry about the missing scale on the chart - it was meant originally to illustrate the relative difference among the different groupings of bikes. However, the y-axis is CdA and each division represents 0.002 m^2. If you want to translate to power, that will be very dependent on your average speed.


----------



## thumper8888

chrisyu said:


> Haha @ testing D'Aluisio's hair. I've tried to make him do a test but he protects that hair!
> 
> I forgot to hit the earlier comment asking for a breakdown. Since the new bike is so integrated, it's near impossible to do a complete breakdown of how much, say, the bars, stem, tires, wheels contribute to the aero savings. For example, we can compare wheel aero alone, but we've designed the frame around that wheel so there are potentially advantageous interaction effects that don't come into play unless they are tested together.
> 
> And sorry about the missing scale on the chart - it was meant originally to illustrate the relative difference among the different groupings of bikes. However, the y-axis is CdA and each division represents 0.002 m^2. If you want to translate to power, that will be very dependent on your average speed.


It's understandable that he wouldn't want to shave down for the control data. But it could be properly simulated with the help of a pastel swim cap. I'm guessing 48 secs/40km plus a real, but perhaps unquantifiable boost in company moral. 
Thanks for the straight up answers.
Onward and upward.


----------



## TricrossRich

chrisyu said:


> Haha @ testing D'Aluisio's hair. I've tried to make him do a test but he protects that hair!
> 
> I forgot to hit the earlier comment asking for a breakdown. Since the new bike is so integrated, it's near impossible to do a complete breakdown of how much, say, the bars, stem, tires, wheels contribute to the aero savings. For example, we can compare wheel aero alone, but we've designed the frame around that wheel so there are potentially advantageous interaction effects that don't come into play unless they are tested together.
> 
> And sorry about the missing scale on the chart - it was meant originally to illustrate the relative difference among the different groupings of bikes. However, the y-axis is CdA and each division represents 0.002 m^2. If you want to translate to power, that will be very dependent on your average speed.


Chris... so awesome to see you here, answering questions. Definitely loving the transparency (and the bike).


----------



## thumper8888

chrisyu said:


> ... Since the new bike is so integrated, it's near impossible to do a complete breakdown of how much, say, the bars, stem, tires, wheels contribute to the aero savings. For example, we can compare wheel aero alone, but we've designed the frame around that wheel so there are potentially advantageous interaction effects that don't come into play unless they are tested together. ...


Hmmm, maybe its a small nail to hit but after thinking about this for a minute... I understand how if you were going to this much trouble on a design to get out every last flicker of drag, that you would want to design around a specific wheel.
But you guys are going to be selling frame modules ... and of course many of those will be run with other wheels. It wouldnt make any sense to waste tunnel time on box rims... but you didn't test it with some fairly standard aero wheel benchmark, like 404s, to see how that would work out?
I mean, presumably that wouldn't be some sort of disaster but folks looking at buying frames rather than whole bikes will want to know that....(for me it's a pretty big budget deal to be able to buy framesets...and I always do this and move components over).


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> Hmmm, maybe its a small nail to hit but after thinking about this for a minute... I understand how if you were going to this much trouble on a design to get out every last flicker of drag, that you would want to design around a specific wheel.
> But you guys are going to be selling frame modules ... and of course many of those will be run with other wheels. It wouldnt make any sense to waste tunnel time on box rims... but you didn't test it with some fairly standard aero wheel benchmark, like 404s, to see how that would work out?
> I mean, presumably that wouldn't be some sort of disaster but folks looking at buying frames rather than whole bikes will want to know that....(for me it's a pretty big budget deal to be able to buy framesets...and I always do this and move components over).


but Specialized isn't in the business of selling 404's... they're in the business of selling their own products... and obviously designing around other products in their own brand. I think its silly to expect Specialized to spend/waste their time testing around other products.... You want the best results? run it as a matched system.


----------



## NealH

That is good info on the "road bike reviews" site linked in Chris's message above. Some of it is pretty impressive. I want to know how the general ride compares to the Tarmac. Can you comment on this Chris?


----------



## Dunbar

I'll have to test ride one of these at the next demo event in my area. I already have a 2015 Cervelo S2 so I wouldn't even be in the market until the frame price drops / trickles down to the non S-Works Venge in a year or two. I'm interested in the new (more aero) S-Works shoes to replace my old Sidis as well.


----------



## taodemon

What models will the new frame be available in Chris? Expert and higher? Any idea when we can expect it to work its way through the whole venge lineup?


----------



## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> but Specialized isn't in the business of selling 404's... they're in the business of selling their own products... and obviously designing around other products in their own brand. I think its silly to expect Specialized to spend/waste their time testing around other products.... You want the best results? run it as a matched system.


Some good points, but reasonable people could disagree. 
And I know they want to sell things as a package, and are now in the wheel business. And no doubt these are fine wheels. But is optimal the difference between 2 watts or 20? For a ton of money?
I want to have at least some sense what the results are going to be if I do what most people buying a frameset are going to do. 
If a manufacturer does something as unusual as designing sooooo carefully around a particular wheelset, then sells the frame for use with other wheelsets, I think its reasonable to ask if thats going to work at least relatively well.
If you have 12K for a whole bike, great. But those wheels, which I will warrant won't be discounted noticeably from suggested retail, would be a big wallet hit for people buying a frameset... someones who in many cases already have big investments (by our standards) in race wheels.
Is that sillier, or more of a waste of time than testing beards and ponytails?


----------



## Rashadabd

Bike Radar's take: http://youtu.be/9EIACkAGpf4


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> Is that sillier, or more of a waste of time than testing beards and ponytails?


You got me there.... I just don't think its fair to expect that they'll show you numbers that may or may not justify you keeping/buying a competitors products. They want to sell their products.


----------



## taodemon

My biggest issue right now is the price jump. I would gain noticeably more performance from getting the skin suit and an evade helm than from upgrading from my current venge to a new venge and at a fraction of the cost. If the madone is more reasonably priced and and the numbers aren't too far off that might be the better option.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> My biggest issue right now is the price jump. I would gain noticeably more performance from getting the skin suit and an evade helm than from upgrading from my current venge to a new venge and at a fraction of the cost. If the madone is more reasonably priced and and the numbers aren't too far off that might be the better option.


I think that's a legitimate concern big picture: how much is all of this worth to guys like us? It's only compounded by the fact you already have an aero road bike. I would say just get some 3T Aerotunda bars, the skinsuit, a new helmet, etc. and call it a day. The Madones are usually $2500 for the 5 Series frameset and $3500 for the 5.2 bikes with Ultegra or close to that. Trek may raise those prices because of the redesign, but they are typically pretty consistent. Obviously 6-9 Series will cost you more. For me, it would come down to the Transonic or Propel because they are the best values by a significant margin IMO. You get good aero numbers and similar specs for a fraction of the price.


----------



## Rashadabd

Rashadabd said:


> I think that's a legitimate concern big picture: how much is all of this worth to guys like us? It's only compounded by the fact you already have an aero road bike. I would say just get some 3T Aerotunda bars, the skinsuit, a new helmet, etc. and call it a day. The Madones are usually $2500 for the 5 Series frameset and $3500 for the 5.2 bikes with Ultegra or close to that. Trek may raise those prices because of the redesign, but they are typically pretty consistent. Obviously 6-9 Series will cost you more. For me, it would come down to the Transonic or Propel because they are the best values by a significant margin IMO. You get good aero numbers and similar specs for a fraction of the price.


The new Specialized bars, tires, wheels, and skinsuit might be worth looking into as well.


----------



## tranzformer

tranzformer said:


> I'll still stand by 15w only for new Venge frame only over the old Venge. Handlebar...etc. will be on top of that.


Looks like my prediction isn't that far off. 





tranzformer said:


> For the new Venge pricing? I have no idea. Depends exactly how they sell it. Do they just do (1) frame + fork + seat post + integrated brakes, or do they also include (2) the stem + handlebar + crank? Current Venge is $3,500. Current S5 is $4,500 and Felt AR FRD is $4,000. So I'd say for #1 maybe $5,000 and for #2 maybe $6,000? I'm bad at estimating pricing, but it isn't going to be 'cheap.'





mile2424 said:


> Sounds about right. I could see them only offering it with the complete package.


$5,800 for frameset module. Anyone know exactly what comes with the module?


----------



## taodemon

Specialized Bicycle Components

frame, seatpost, handlebars and brakes.

the sworks di2 version is $12500 and has a quark powermeter.

the pro race is $8000, da9000, cl (vs clx) wheels. Same 11r carbon frame (though there is no sworks written on it). No power meter, not sure if the crank is the same otherwise. 

I checked in at the local bike shop and for 2016 venges besides the new vias at the sworks, and pro levels along with the frame all that was showing was an expert which seemed to be the old frame still. It could be a matter of them still updating everything but I sort of get the feeling that there won't even be an expert version of this frame and if you want it you are going to have to sell a couple kidneys.


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## oldskoolm4

Oh geez. Bike is sharp, there's no denying that, but all that other stuff? Meh. I'm not going on a training ride or a race in a skin suit. Most of us mere mortals here won't save those times just by changing gear. To each their own.


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## TricrossRich

taodemon said:


> the pro race is $8000, da9000, cl (vs clx) wheels. Same 11r carbon frame (though there is no sworks written on it)..


I have a feeling that is a typo...


----------



## taodemon

could be a typo, and if that is the case it is even more expensive.


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## chrisyu

thumper8888 said:


> Hmmm, maybe its a small nail to hit but after thinking about this for a minute... I understand how if you were going to this much trouble on a design to get out every last flicker of drag, that you would want to design around a specific wheel.
> But you guys are going to be selling frame modules ... and of course many of those will be run with other wheels. It wouldnt make any sense to waste tunnel time on box rims... but you didn't test it with some fairly standard aero wheel benchmark, like 404s, to see how that would work out?
> I mean, presumably that wouldn't be some sort of disaster but folks looking at buying frames rather than whole bikes will want to know that....(for me it's a pretty big budget deal to be able to buy framesets...and I always do this and move components over).


Yes, we did also test w/ a common set of wheels. The chart I linked to earlier (in the Roadbikereview gallery) is a comparison with all bikes using the CLX60 wheels (again, we used that set due to width restrictions with the CLX64s and some competitor frames). As you can see there, the majority of the benefit still holds when wheels are equalized, but by designing for the interaction with our specific wheel, the CLX64, we were able to squeeze a bit more performance out of the system.


----------



## chrisyu

NealH said:


> That is good info on the "road bike reviews" site linked in Chris's message above. Some of it is pretty impressive. I want to know how the general ride compares to the Tarmac. Can you comment on this Chris?


Front end handling (stiffness) is nearly on par with the current Tarmac, and pedaling efficiency (BB stiffness) is actually slightly higher (highest of any bike we make now). We've significantly closed the gap in terms of how the Venge rides compared to the Tarmac. However, the Tarmac is still unbeatable when it comes to ultimate ride feel and for carving technical corners.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

chrisyu said:


> We have historically not published direct competitor aero comparison data, leaving that to the 3rd party tests (honest question: would you believe us if we did?)


After re-reading thread...definite maybe. Too much junk science in cycle marketing and it has made me sceptical. Sorry, don't take it personally.

With such small measurements I am concerned the margin of error is as large as some of the measurements, thus invalidating them. Curious about your instrumentation but understand your techniques may be proprietary. I know McLaren is very secretive about their R+D.

My own experience: set up an ultra sensitive device to zero and do a test go for lunch and while you are out a tour group of VIPS walks through the lab like bulls in a china shop. 

It would be great if some third party did standardised tests. There's a test stand for jet engines across the lane from my workplace, maybe I could hold a frame over the exhaust eh? We don't have a tunnel that's all I can do.


----------



## HaroldC

tranzformer said:


> $5,800 for frameset module. Anyone know exactly what comes with the module?


Module will most likely include frame, seatpost and wheels. Not sure about the stem and handlebar. I would think it would have to, give that ViAS stands for Venge integrated Aero System. The Tarmac disc module includes wheels.


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## taodemon

HaroldC said:


> Module will most likely include frame, seatpost and wheels. Not sure about the stem and handlebar. I would think it would have to, give that ViAS stands for Venge integrated Aero System. The Tarmac disc module includes wheels.


It includes stem and handle bars plus seat post, no wheels though.


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## mile2424

for anyone that hans't discovered it yet, the 360 degree viewer on the Specialized site is pretty awesome and shows much more detail than most the generic photos.


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## tranzformer

From the looks of the old Venge vs. new Venge, looks like a reduction of somewhere in the ~10-15w range?


----------



## goodboyr

On another forum, 12 watts was quoted.


----------



## tom_h

*Key Data omitted ... intentionally ?*

All this touting of "time saved" yet several huge pieces of information are missing:
- What is Cd*A at various speeds?
- What speeds are assumed in Specialized's claims ?
- What are actual "watts saved" at the assumed speed?

Without this info, "time saved" is unanchored and is as nebulous as "jobs saved or created" ;-)

Maybe I missed it because it's such a long thread . But I also don't think I've ever seen Specialized publish the speed used during any aero test.

Aero power losses scale as the cube of speed ... so if you want your "watts saved" marketing data to look good, do the tests at a very high speed like 50 kph (~31 mph). Not many amateur racers can sustain that speed for more than a minute or so .

Also the "time saved" is actually larger for a slow rider (before and after aero upgrades) than for a fast rider!
This follows from simple "rate-distance" problem solving. For a more detailed exposition, see:
Slow vs. Fast Riders - Cervélo

So on one hand, the 18 mph rider will see more "time saved" , but the 28 mph racer will see more "watts saved". But the slow rider will still Never beat the fast racer.

Specialized needs to be more transparent in their data presentation, but I think that's asking too much of any organization -- marketing is often at odds with transparency & clarity.


----------



## tranzformer

chrisyu said:


> Understood. We have historically not published direct competitor aero comparison data, leaving that to the 3rd party tests (honest question: would you believe us if we did?).


I would want to see the data. As Felt did for their AR and Cervelo their S5 white papers, it adds credence and another data point to see the results they came up with and the way the test was setup and run. Instead of a bunch of assumptions being made on our part, we could see exactly how you set up the bikes and ran the test. Combine that with 3rd party aero tests as well as riders own field tests, then you start getting a list of data points from which you can compare.

I would have liked to see you do; 

- all bikes with the same Roval wheels and tires
- all non-Specialized frames with either Aerofly aero bar or Zipp SL-70 aero bar
- all non-Specialized frames with the same stem 
- all frames running the same mechanical or Di2 in the test
- all frames run the same cranks


I'm sure there might be one or two things I am missing. But that would be the gist of it. None of this running some frames with an aero bar and others without.


----------



## Dunbar

taodemon said:


> It includes stem and handle bars plus seat post, no wheels though.


The value isn't there @ $5800 when you can get a complete bike with CL64's and DA9000 for $8k. It looks like a continuation of the trend of Specialized pricing frames higher and higher to push people into complete bikes.


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## NealH

I think Specialized has done a great job with the data and being forthcoming with it. Its plenty good for general comparative purposes. In the end, its the bike. Its the aggregate and not any one part. I'm sure you can find some off-brand quick release that is probably more aero than the one used on Roval wheels, just don't miss the forest for the trees. I doubt that I will be buying one because it cost too much. And the total time saved over 40k isn't my priority. But if it was, I'd find a way.


----------



## taodemon

I'm having a hard time seeing the value at all when you can get more performance from a $500 skin suit and a $250 helmet than the bike and the helmet I had planned on getting anyways before all of this. 

The bike, even the cheaper 8000 lower end one is the cost of 2 years of my sons private school tuition (starting 2nd grade next year). 

I was thinking of getting an expert level for my next specialized bike and even that would take some suffering to get past my wife but I don't think the ViAS is even an option right now as it looks like it will only be available as the module, the pro race or the full di2 setup. The 2016 expert version seems to be the old frame from what I saw on the dealers site at the bike store.

As for the value it might depend on if the 8k version is actually 11r carbon like the sworks or not. If it is 11r then you wouldn't even be able to build a full bike for the 8k buying the module. You can get a DA9000 for about 1200 online, sell the brakes for maybe 200, You would still need wheels and a seat and you probably wouldn't be able to get comparable wheels for 1k. Which is why I don't think that the 8k bike is 11r carbon. Maybe Chrisyu can clear it up for us.

If it is 11r carbon then while it might be a good deal, it would still be well out of the range of most riders and we might just have to wait a few years for the prices to drop or for it to trickle down to the lower models of the bike. 

Or if the new madone is more reasonably priced, even if the performance isn't quite the same it might become a much better option. It doesn't hurt that it looks quite a bit like the current venge (which is a good thing in my opinion).


----------



## NealH

If you ride alone at 25mph you will be outputting about 300 watts, maybe slightly more, if you have a reasonably good position (there are other variables that will affect the power). The new Venge, at that speed will save or cut about 12 watts off the old Venge - both with CLX-60 wheels. That's the way I understand it, though it's subject to the usual amount of my interpretation error (previously posted by Chris). If you are group riding, which is far more fun than riding alone then the wattage matters even less, unless you're trying to be tarzan and stay on the front all the time. The wattage savings exponentially drop as your speed is lowered from 25, and exp. rises as your speed increases from 25. I doubt many people here can ride 2 or 3 hours at 25mph. Maybe one or two can, but not most of us. If you are looking for aero value in a bike, then old (existing) Venge and Cervelo S2 are probably reasonably good buys - and they are good looking. If you like the higher end more evolved aero bikes (new Trek, VIas, etc), and have the money, then spend it. Its yours and you should get what you want. Its also good for the economy.


----------



## spdntrxi

Dunbar said:


> The value isn't there @ $5800 when you can get a complete bike with CL64's and DA9000 for $8k. It looks like a continuation of the trend of Specialized pricing frames higher and higher to push people into complete bikes.


who does not do that ? Really I just got a full TT bike with ultegra mechanical myself, because it's cheaper for me to convert to Di2 and get the aerobar I want then buy the 9070 Di2 complete bike.


----------



## taodemon

I'm waiting to see the new madone numbers but I have a feeling I will be better off upgrading my current venge to full DA 9000, skin suit, evade helm, and an aerofly bar all for a fraction of the cost of a new bike (venge or madone) of similar specs.

Then a couple years down the line when the new ViAS (or madone) frame is more reasonably priced and has some color options I can pick up a frame then.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> I'm waiting to see the new madone numbers but I have a feeling I will be better off upgrading my current venge to full DA 9000, skin suit, evade helm, and an aerofly bar all for a fraction of the cost of a new bike (venge or madone) of similar specs.
> 
> Then a couple years down the line when the new ViAS (or madone) frame is more reasonably priced and has some color options I can pick up a frame then.


This makes the most sense to me, particularly when you are discussing marginal gains and it has been confirmed that there isn't a huge margin of gains between the new Venge, the old Venge, and other top aero road bikes.


----------



## TricrossRich

All I know is... my "OLD" Venge is still wicked fast and gets compliments overtime she's out....  Did a shop group ride last night that I've never done before and a few people asked about my bike and it descends like boulder coming off the empire state building.


----------



## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> All I know is... my "OLD" Venge is still wicked fast and gets compliments overtime she's out....  Did a shop group ride last night that I've never done before and a few people asked about my bike and it descends like boulder coming off the empire state building.


Yes, because you got the best color scheme ;-).
That's a good looking bike. I'd keep that.

As I'm going to do with my S5. Weighed all this carefully, and new Venge is a great bike. I love the engineering and the logic of it. But, for me at least, specialized has finally jumped the shark with pricing/value.
I'm sure some thought it had long ago, and others -- mainly with more disposable income -- disagree.
I had an S-works Venge, two S-Works Tarmacs, and a smartweld, and suffered their retail-plus pricing gladly because they make the best bikes. They just do.
But I'm not going to pay $1,000 per watt saved. If i were that far gone I'd have those ceramic jockey wheels, which suddenly look like a cost/benefit bargain.


----------



## Superdave3T

thumper8888 said:


> Just reviewed one of the old tests, the Tour one. They standardize for Zipp 404s and Zipp Vuka Sprint aero drop bars... and a hypothetical 100km course with 6,562 feet of climbing. 200 watts steady-state power, 165 pound rider, bike weight 16.5 lbs.
> They were trying to get at the aero-vs-light question, hence actual climbing...
> Plenty of caveats here, too, but maybe some useful info for present purpose:
> Old S5 -- 4 hours 17 minutes 11 seconds. Old Venge 4:18:02. R5 4:18:27 Tarmac SL4 4:19:07.
> It kind of underlines that a big part of the equation here is what course you pick.
> 
> http://www.cervelo.com/media/docs/Tour-Mag-3370aff0-217e-43b7-8024-8a305634944f-2.PDF


I've got a similar real-world test I've done many many times with identical equipment except for the frameset and total mass of each bike. A snapshot still reveals an aero advantage at speeds of 20kph.








Any gain, is significant when you are supplying products to the best athletes in the world. There are no "insignificant" improvements. The magnitude is where the cost and value to us regular consumers comes into play.

I'm very pleased to see the products and marketing in our industry move this direction.

-SD


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> Yes, because you got the best color scheme ;-).


Thanks.



thumper8888 said:


> I had an S-works Venge, two S-Works Tarmacs, and a smartweld, and suffered their retail-plus pricing gladly because they make the best bikes. They just do.


I agree... I'm a Specialized Fanboy.. no denying it.

I also have this, 2015 Allez Comp Smartweld










And used to have this, 2013 Tricross Elite Disc


----------



## chrisyu

tom_h said:


> All this touting of "time saved" yet several huge pieces of information are missing:
> - What is Cd*A at various speeds?
> - What speeds are assumed in Specialized's claims ?
> - What are actual "watts saved" at the assumed speed?
> 
> Without this info, "time saved" is unanchored and is as nebulous as "jobs saved or created" ;-)
> 
> Maybe I missed it because it's such a long thread . But I also don't think I've ever seen Specialized publish the speed used during any aero test.
> 
> Aero power losses scale as the cube of speed ... so if you want your "watts saved" marketing data to look good, do the tests at a very high speed like 50 kph (~31 mph). Not many amateur racers can sustain that speed for more than a minute or so .
> 
> Also the "time saved" is actually larger for a slow rider (before and after aero upgrades) than for a fast rider!
> This follows from simple "rate-distance" problem solving. For a more detailed exposition, see:
> Slow vs. Fast Riders - Cervélo
> 
> So on one hand, the 18 mph rider will see more "time saved" , but the 28 mph racer will see more "watts saved". But the slow rider will still Never beat the fast racer.
> 
> Specialized needs to be more transparent in their data presentation, but I think that's asking too much of any organization -- marketing is often at odds with transparency & clarity.


Hi Tom, nothing nefarious going on, I promise. You're on the right track with time saved as a metric: it is indeed conservative in the sense that the slower you go, the more you actually save. But that dependence on speed is much less than with power saved, as you mentioned. Which is why we have avoided using power saved as a comparison metric and chosen time saved over a fixed distance (40km). 

To answer your questions directly:
- Absolute CdA values obviously depend on who the rider is. What is more important when comparing equipment is CdA deltas from 1 setup to another. The graph that I pointed to earlier in this thread is a CdA chart and I stated then that each y-axis division is 0.002 m^2. And as you know, CdA normalizes out speed so it is essentially unchanged regardless of test speed.

- As I noted above and you have also commented on, by using time saved over a fixed distance, the number is relatively insensitive to the average speed (for a typical cyclist). Usually plus or minus a handful of seconds ...vs. a cubic relationship when discussing watts saved. With that said, our time saved calc is based roughly around 40 km/h (and as you noted, slower riders will actually see more time saved over the same distance).

- Sounds like you can do the math to compute watts saved at a given speed by seeing the CdA deltas I mentioned above. As we both know, it varies greatly depending on the speed.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Rashadabd

For comparison sake, the new Scott Foil is now out there as well. Scott took the tech all the way down to their entry level price point. I think it's pretty nice looking actually:

First-look review: 2016 Scott Foil | CyclingTips


----------



## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> For comparison sake, the new Scott Foil is now out there as well. Scott took the tech all the way down to their entry level price point. I think it's pretty nice looking actually:
> 
> First-look review: 2016 Scott Foil | CyclingTips


While I don't like the look of the front end of the foil, I'm really digging the colors and paint design. It is also refreshing to see the frame through the whole lineup of bikes and not just on the very top end where only pro's and people with lots of money can afford to buy it.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> While I don't like the look of the front end of the foil, I'm really digging the colors and paint design. It is also refreshing to see the frame through the whole lineup of bikes and not just on the very top end where only pro's and people with lots of money can afford to buy it.[/QUiOTE]
> 
> Agreed, but I think I like the look more than you do. I still think the Trek looks the best, followed by the Foil and Propel.


----------



## taodemon

I agree on the Madone, and only 4 more days until we start getting some details on it. Hopefully the new frame will be used in the full lineup as well.


----------



## Merc

Looks like there are two new color choices on Specialized's website, a blue/green frame and red/black one. Does anyone else know if there will be other colors available?


----------



## Pirx

SuperdaveFelt said:


> I've got a similar real-world test I've done many many times with identical equipment except for the frameset and total mass of each bike. A snapshot still reveals an aero advantage at speeds of 20kph.
> View attachment 307037


I don't understand that graph: How do you run at 400+W while doing 12mph? Uphill?



Rashadabd said:


> For comparison sake, the new Scott Foil is now out there as well. Scott took the tech all the way down to their entry level price point. I think it's pretty nice looking actually:
> 
> First-look review: 2016 Scott Foil | CyclingTips


Ugghh, that is one ugly sucker...


----------



## Superdave3T

Pirx said:


> I don't understand that graph: How do you run at 400+W while doing 12mph? Uphill?


Yes, uphill. More people would dispute the aero benefit on a climb so this is where the trial is conducted.
This is among the information collected and shared on why aero matters more than weight. The 1200g F1 frame/fork/seatpost requires more watts to go up this ~3 1/2 minute climb than the 1600g AR FRD. The math from development data collected predicts it, the results support it.

For those that question the claim that bike/clothes/shoes/tires can provide a 5:00 advantage over an hour I think a careful examination of the data can see how this prediction is made.


-SD


----------



## bratz

SD - just wondering what wheels were on the bikes.. Currently looking for a spare/race wheel for my AR  with 50mm Chinese carbon clinchers.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

SuperdaveFelt said:


> For those that question the claim that bike/clothes/shoes/tires can provide a 5:00 advantage over an hour I think a careful examination of the data can see how this prediction is made.
> -SD


For many the problem is that aerodynamic efficiency is an abstract concept while weight is something tangible.
One has to think about aerodynamics and look at charts, but weight is something you can feel in your hand. Sometimes things look aerodynamic but aren't, but something heavy cannot pretend to be light.
So cyclists buy weight weenie bikes with carbon brake calipers from ax-lightness or Schmolke bars at insane prices that make this Venge look cheap.


----------



## Rashadabd

Interesting discussion between GCN and Scott engineers about settling a balance between aerodymics and other important features: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e19jH--bnc&sns=em


----------



## Dunbar

spdntrxi said:


> who does not do that ? Really I just got a full TT bike with ultegra mechanical myself, because it's cheaper for me to convert to Di2 and get the aerobar I want then buy the 9070 Di2 complete bike.


I think you missed my point, people do it because the frames are priced so high relative to the complete bike(s). Some manufacturer's do still charge reasonable prices for standalone frames although the trend is raise frame prices to push people into buying complete bikes (which I'm sure are more profitable.)

If the frames were priced reasonably you could buy the frame and piece together all of the parts exactly to your preference. For examplke, there was a time, not too long ago, when Specialized sold their 9r/10r Roubaix SL3 frame for the low $2k range.


----------



## spdntrxi

I get your pt. I was actually agreeing with you. I just purchased a whole bike because it was less then a grand more then frame only..


----------



## boogermin

Very unscientific question here... What does "ViAS" mean? I've searched all over, but couldn't find anything. Great looking bike. Can't wait to take one for a spin.



chrisyu said:


> Hey all, this is Chris from Specialized. Hopefully I can help answer any questions here.
> 
> We know we're making some big claims and along with that a lot of bullshit meters will be going off. Frankly, if that weren't the case we'd be surprised. We're here to be transparent. If something doesn't sound like it's adding up, hopefully we can explain.
> 
> The 5 min claim is for the larger cycling audience that doesn't fully grasp the impact of aero. The vast majority of riders are still buying into the idea of a lightweight setup, whether that's the bike, wheels, helmet, etc...By comparing against basically last year's TdF winning setup, we wanted to drive home the point that going full in on the aero *system* can net a substantial amount of time saved in the vast majority of riding conditions. The point wasn't to conceal the aero breakdown among the pieces of the system. In fact, where possible, we've given that breakdown - which you'll see in various media write ups as well as on our site.


----------



## spdntrxi

Venge integrated Aero System... my guess anyways.


----------



## 1Butcher

Dunbar said:


> Some manufacturer's do still charge reasonable prices for standalone frames although the trend is raise frame prices to push people into buying complete bikes (which I'm sure are more profitable.)


The profit margin is most likely much more from a single part than the complete assembly. Selling parts is just a pain the butt. The logistics are a nightmare. Selling a complete unit is simple easy.

Now if we're talking gross numbers, I would think they make more selling bikes, but gross does not make you money. Net is were it is at and I think they make way more selling frames. 

I also believe, they only sell frames for the small group of individuals that want to build their own. That is a small niche market.


----------



## chrisyu

boogermin said:


> Very unscientific question here... What does "ViAS" mean? I've searched all over, but couldn't find anything. Great looking bike. Can't wait to take one for a spin.


Yup, @spdntrxi got it right. Venge integrated aero system. 

Not just a frame and fork. Truly designed with everything else together: cockpit, brakes, and wheels/tires.


----------



## krtassoc

https://youtu.be/eRSrhrNlFJk

So, why didn't Carvendish win by five minutes...instead of losing the British National Road Race?

Forget about all this Specialized marketing BS...as usual the strongest rider with the best tactics wins!


----------



## taodemon

krtassoc said:


> https://youtu.be/eRSrhrNlFJk
> 
> So, why didn't Carvendish win by five minutes...instead of losing the British National Road Race?
> 
> Forget about all this Specialized marketing BS...as usual the strongest rider with the best tactics wins!


I didn't watch the whole race but I really wouldn't expect Cav to do well on a climbing finish. Just the fact that he was there at the end by himself with 3 guys from sky seems impressive. 

I don't watch cycling that often and only watch the end of that one, but the wins I have seen for him have all involved his team train leading him off for a sprint finish.

I don't think anyone will argue that the strongest rider with the best tactics wins, but the venge could have been the only reason Cav was even in contention in that scenario, and he still managed second to the guy who won it last year which isn't a bad result.


----------



## Wetworks

krtassoc said:


> https://youtu.be/eRSrhrNlFJk
> 
> So, why didn't Carvendish win by five minutes...instead of losing the British National Road Race?
> 
> Forget about all this Specialized marketing BS...as usual the strongest rider with the best tactics wins!


It's proposed as a 5 minute gain in a standard TT. But why let that get in the way of a good rant? Engage cane-shaking.


----------



## TricrossRich

krtassoc said:


> https://youtu.be/eRSrhrNlFJk
> 
> So, why didn't Carvendish win by five minutes...instead of losing the British National Road Race?
> 
> Forget about all this Specialized marketing BS...as usual the strongest rider with the best tactics wins!


Are you for real? Your over-simplification of their marketing is just as silly as you claim there's is.


----------



## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> Are you for real? Your over-simplification of their marketing is just as silly as you claim there's is.


Let me try to help direct this toward a real discussion here because krtassoc does make a really valid point that is continually glossed over during these types of discussions. The fact of the matter is, bike racers don't race in wind tunnels and you cannot equate what happens in a controlled environment like a wind tunnel with what happens on the open road. There are climbs, hairpin corners, wind, other riders, support vehicles (or just cars passing us regular folk), changes of pace, etc. all coming into play out on the road and the rider that is best equipped to handle those things almost always rises to the surface in a race regardless of what bike he/she is on. 

For instance, if having aero equipment was in fact the end all be all, Peter Sagan wouldn't have a win on his palmares before this year (which is when he actually garnered most of his wins) because Cannondale doesn't even make a true aero road bike. (Now think about all of the wins and podiums Cannondale sponsored guys have had). But the guy had over 50 wins on a Cannondale Supersix Evo and Synapse, many of them coming in breakaways and sprints over guys on the top of the line aero road bikes.

As relevant as aero is, aero tube shapes are not a substitute for good legs, lungs, and bike handling skills when it comes to racing out in the real world. He's not the only one either. Go to any crit in your commmunity and you will undoubtedly see plenty of guys winning and taking podiums on older and more traditional bikes and some of those wins will be over guys with the best aero bikes and gear. The number will likely go up when you move onto races with significant climbing. It's really that simple and when bike manufacturers go overboard in marketing and come pretty close to suggesting that aero is all you need to blow away the competition, people that race and watch a lot of racing are going say something. 

Does aero matter, yes. Is it "everything," no. Pros wouldn't wouldn't put their bodies and careers at risk by blood doping if it were that easy, they would be fighting and falling all over themselves to end up on the team with the best aero gear if that were the case. But they know fitness and good legs are the true determining factors, so they get tempted into trying to boost those quickly. 

To me, the true test would be to have someone run the same exact route with the same group on back to back days (or the same day with a break between) if you really want to see how the technology impacts racing. One run on the aero bike and the other on the control or old bike. Even then, you would have to figure out how to control for cars and overcooking a corner on one run and not the next or shifting too early or too late before a climb, etc.


----------



## 1Butcher

TricrossRich said:


> Are you for real? Your over-simplification of their marketing is just as silly as you claim there's is.


+1. Pure Ignorance.


----------



## TricrossRich

Rashadabd said:


> Let me try to help direct this toward a real discussion here because krtassoc does make a really valid point that is continually glossed over during these types of discussions. The fact of the matter is, bike racers don't race in wind tunnels and you cannot equate what happens in a controlled environment like a wind tunnel with what happens on the open road. There are climbs, hairpin corners, wind, other riders, support vehicles (or just cars passing us regular folk), changes of pace, etc. all coming into play out on the road and the rider that is best equipped to handle those things almost always rises to the surface in a race regardless of what bike he/she is on.


This would be a valid response if that's what Krtassoc was suggesting, but he's not. His suggestion was that Specialized claiming that anyone with this bike will be everyone else on any other bike by 5 minutes. That is not Specialized's claim... in fact, its not even remotely close.



Rashadabd said:


> For instance, if having aero equipment was in fact the end all be all, Peter Sagan wouldn't have a win on his palmares before this year (which is when he actually garnered most of his wins) because Cannondale doesn't even make a true aero road bike. (Now think about all of the wins and podiums Cannondale sponsored guys have had). But the guy had over 50 wins on a Cannondale Supersix Evo and Synapse, many of them coming in breakaways and sprints over guys on the top of the line aero road bikes.
> 
> As relevant as aero is, aero tube shapes are not a substitute for good legs, lungs, and bike handling skills when it comes to racing out in the real world. He's not the only one either. Go to any crit in your commmunity and you will undoubtedly see plenty of guys winning and taking podiums on older and more traditional bikes and some of those wins will be over guys with the best aero bikes and gear. The number will likely go up when you move onto races with significant climbing. It's really that simple and when bike manufacturers go overboard in marketing and come pretty close to suggesting that aero is all you need to blow away the competition, people that race and watch a lot of racing are going say something.
> 
> Does aero matter, yes. Is it "everything," no. Pros wouldn't wouldn't put their bodies and careers at risk by blood doping if it were that easy, they would be fighting and falling all over themselves to end up on the team with the best aero gear if that were the case. But they know fitness and good legs are the true determining factors, so they get tempted into trying to boost those quickly.
> 
> To me, the true test would be to have someone run the same exact route with the same group on back to back days (or the same day with a break between) if you really want to see how the technology impacts racing. One run on the aero bike and the other on the control or old bike. Even then, you would have to figure out how to control for cars and overcooking a corner on one run and not the next or shifting too early or too late before a climb, etc.


Specialized is claiming that if you were to ride a standard round tube road bike with box section wheels, baggy jersey, non-aero helmet on a given 40K TT route and then do the same course, outputting the same power over that same course, but using their entire system, including bike, wheels, tires, skin suit and helmet, you'd save 5 minutes. if you review the wind tunnel figures and the road data collected by McLaren, you'd see that the claim is correct. There's no more too it.... Reading that, and then expecting Cav to be faster than someone else, riding some other equipment is ridiculous. If Cav was racing against a Cav clone and that Cav clone was riding a round tube road bike with box section wheels, on some gatorskins with a baggy jersey... then yes, expecting him to beat the clone by 5 minutes is correct. But, that's impossible as you state earlier.

The truth is, there are many, many variables that go into winning a bike race... the fitness of the rider being first and foremost. We are imperfect machines... It would be nearly impossible to replicate riding the same exact outside course in the same exact conditions, putting out the exact same power levels. But that doesn't mean that aerodynamics is any less important... In fact, it only makes it more important. Winning a race is about being as efficient as possible with the power you have, so you can go as fast as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can. That's true whether you're Cav or a normal human being like you or I.



1Butcher said:


> +1. Pure Ignorance.


Me... or him?


----------



## krtassoc

"...I'm 89.2% sure that 97.6% of that info is 133% marketing hype about a nice new bike.
I bet 37.8% of people will agree with me...."

(Plagiarized from the Cannondale Forum)

Wow...I think some people have way too much time on their hands!!!


----------



## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> This would be a valid response if that's what Krtassoc was suggesting, but he's not. His suggestion was that Specialized claiming that anyone with this bike will be everyone else on any other bike by 5 minutes. That is not Specialized's claim... in fact, its not even remotely close.
> 
> 
> 
> Specialized is claiming that if you were to ride a standard round tube road bike with box section wheels, baggy jersey, non-aero helmet on a given 40K TT route and then do the same course, outputting the same power over that same course, but using their entire system, including bike, wheels, tires, skin suit and helmet, you'd save 5 minutes. if you review the wind tunnel figures and the road data collected by McLaren, you'd see that the claim is correct. There's no more too it.... Reading that, and then expecting Cav to be faster than someone else, riding some other equipment is ridiculous. If Cav was racing against a Cav clone and that Cav clone was riding a round tube road bike with box section wheels, on some gatorskins with a baggy jersey... then yes, expecting him to beat the clone by 5 minutes is correct. But, that's impossible as you state earlier.
> 
> The truth is, there are many, many variables that go into winning a bike race... the fitness of the rider being first and foremost. We are imperfect machines... It would be nearly impossible to replicate riding the same exact outside course in the same exact conditions, putting out the exact same power levels. But that doesn't mean that aerodynamics is any less important... In fact, it only makes it more important. Winning a race is about being as efficient as possible with the power you have, so you can go as fast as you possibly can for as long as you possibly can. That's true whether you're Cav or a normal human being like you or I.
> 
> 
> 
> Me... or him?


Fair enough, and if you don't think the marketing message suggests more than that or that it's strange to compare a new aero bike to a round tubed bike instead of your older aero bike it's replacing and/or your direct competitors, then that's fine too. I disagree, and I have a hard time understanding why a company making these claims doesn't compare their skinsuit to another company's skinsuit or their aero helmet to other aero helmets, etc, but Chris explained their perspective and all I can say is ok. I guess at the end of the day, intelligent people can see things differently.


----------



## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> Fair enough, and if you don't think the marketing message suggests more than that or that it's strange to compare a new aero bike to a round tubed bike instead of your older aero bike it's replacing and/or your direct competitors, then that's fine too. I disagree, and I have a hard time understanding why a company making these claims doesn't compare their skinsuit to another company's skinsuit or their aero helmet to other aero helmets, etc, but Chris explained their perspective and all I can say is ok. I guess at the day, intelligent people can see things differently.


Keep in mind the round tubed bike is the latest tarmac with clx 40 wheels and the "loose" jersey isn't all that loose. 









They also did post a comparison to other aero bikes, including the old venge, they just didn't label each specific model. 

Now it is true they didn't do a comparison of their skin-suit vs others or their helmet vs others, but I think the main focus was the bike anyways (even if it is the least cost effective of the items in reducing time).


----------



## tyrich88

For the record, Chris said the tarmac used was last years TDF winning set up. Which, if i remember correctly, was a tarmac with roughly 40mm deep wheels, campy and Sworks cranks. 

And i'm sure it was fairly standardizes with the rest of the testing, so Tarmac with DA 9000 and clx40's seems like it would be fairly consistent with this statement. Which i'm pretty sure I saw pictures of in their testing for the journalists, here: Specialized S-Works Venge ViAS - first ride video review - BikeRadar USA


So, according to what i've seen, box rims were even used in these comparisons as everyone seems to be assuming.


----------



## tyrich88

taodemon said:


> Keep in mind the round tubed bike is the latest tarmac with clx 40 wheels and the "loose" jersey isn't all that loose.
> 
> View attachment 307140
> 
> 
> They also did post a comparison to other aero bikes, including the old venge, they just didn't label each specific model.
> 
> Now it is true they didn't do a comparison of their skin-suit vs others or their helmet vs others, but I think the main focus was the bike anyways (even if it is the least cost effective of the items in reducing time).


I was typing this up as you were i'm guessing. Haha glad i'm not the only one that noticed.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

taodemon said:


> I didn't watch the whole race but I really wouldn't expect Cav to do well on a climbing finish. Just the fact that he was there at the end by himself with 3 guys from sky seems impressive.


Sky had pretty much their entire classics squad and Cav had nobody except Cav.


----------



## krtassoc

Rashadabd, thank you for your comments as they adequately express my thoughts regarding the arobike vs. round tube controversy. 

Just to stir things up some more, the UK national Championship was a lot longer than the 40kms in the Specialized hype (Venge marketing)...he should have won by at least 30 minutes.

Here's another carrot to chew on for those in this thread that have too much time on their hands. Cav and most riders today are very poorly positioned on their bikes...so they need an aerobike just to overcome this handicap! 

https://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/p...wicki-pineapple-bobs-sister-pineapple-bob.jpg

https://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/0004_Mark_Cavendish_WChp_PT11_PhSpt.jpg

Gerard Vroomen (Co-founder, Cervelo) speaks authoritatively about proper bike setup here: https://gerard.cc/category/bike-equipment/,https://gerard.cc/2011/07/29/body-vs-bar-1/, 2 points on arm position in cycling ? #2 |, 2 points on arm position in cycling ? #1 |,


----------



## Rashadabd

No problem at all man.


----------



## taodemon

krtassoc said:


> Rashadabd, thank you for your comments as they adequately express my thoughts regarding the arobike vs. round tube controversy.
> 
> Just to stir things up some more, the UK national Championship was a lot longer than the 40kms in the Specialized hype (Venge marketing)...he should have won by at least 30 minutes.


For that statement to even make sense Cav or any other rider would have to be strong enough to ride faster than the peloton off the front for the whole race. The group will generally be faster than any single rider aero or not, even on a short 40km course. 

How many solo breakaway victories has Cav had in his career? I can't imagine it would be many. Cav is a sprinter, hardly the type of rider to win on solo breakaways. 

Too many basic logic fails in your arguments against aero, or at least in how you are presenting them. For your 30 minute straw man to work the race would have had to be a time trial type setup and the rider on the aero bike would have to be equal to the guy on a round tube bike, hardly a realistic racing scenario.

i don't see what the controversy here is. Aero will make you faster and save watts over a traditional bike but it alone won't determine the outcome of races and nowhere in any of the "hype" does it say otherwise.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> For that statement to even make sense Cav or any other rider would have to be strong enough to ride faster than the peloton off the front for the whole race. The group will generally be faster than any single rider aero or not, even on a short 40km course.
> 
> How many solo breakaway victories has Cav had in his career? I can't imagine it would be many. Cav is a sprinter, hardly the type of rider to win on solo breakaways.
> 
> Too many basic logic fails in your arguments against aero, or at least in how you are presenting them. For your 30 minute straw man to work the race would have had to be a time trial type setup and the rider on the aero bike would have to be equal to the guy on a round tube bike, hardly a realistic racing scenario.
> 
> i don't see what the controversy here is. Aero will make you faster and save watts over a traditional bike but it alone won't determine the outcome of races and nowhere in any of the "hype" does it say otherwise.


As long as we are acknowledging that aero isn't actually "everything" and that it alone doesn't determine the outcome of races, as you said, then I am good.


----------



## MMsRepBike

taodemon said:


> Keep in mind the round tubed bike is the latest tarmac with clx 40 wheels and the "loose" jersey isn't all that loose.
> 
> View attachment 307140
> 
> 
> They also did post a comparison to other aero bikes, including the old venge, they just didn't label each specific model.
> 
> Now it is true they didn't do a comparison of their skin-suit vs others or their helmet vs others, but I think the main focus was the bike anyways (even if it is the least cost effective of the items in reducing time).


This is wrong.

That is not the bike used for the "5 minute" marketing campaign. The biked used was an old SL4 Tarmac and it did not have those wheels. These pictures are not from that campaign and are there to fool those that don't bother to read fine print.

It was not the TDF winning setup they used. He said the word "basically" which allows him to lie about it technically. Pay attention.


----------



## Rashadabd

MMsRepBike said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> That is not the bike used for the "5 minute" marketing campaign. The biked used was an old SL4 Tarmac and it did not have those wheels. These pictures are not from that campaign and are there to fool those that don't bother to read fine print.


That's how I felt. I thought the comparisons used to come up with the numbers that were highlighted were strange and that the relevant comparisons between similar bikes was kind of buried in there, but bygones....


----------



## taodemon

MMsRepBike said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> That is not the bike used for the "5 minute" marketing campaign. The biked used was an old SL4 Tarmac and it did not have those wheels. These pictures are not from that campaign and are there to fool those that don't bother to read fine print.
> 
> It was not the TDF winning setup they used. He said the word "basically" which allows him to lie about it technically. Pay attention.


Not the initial tests, but they used it with a bunch of journalists, minus the new shoes and the numbers matched up pretty well.

Can the Specialized Venge ViAS really save 5 minutes over 40km? | CyclingTips



> SIMULATION RESULTS
> So, how did the Venge ViAS stack up against its claims of being able to save 5 minutes? I’ll cut straight to the chase. I saved an accumulated ~143 seconds (2:22.5 minutes) with a ~2km/hr increase in speed over the 19.2km course. Over 40km, that’s 4:45 minutes (on a course which included 1km of climbing), and I didn’t wear the new S-Works 6 shoes which have a claimed time saving of 35 seconds compared to the shoes I was wearing. It didn’t matter which power profile Midas normalised the numbers on, both came to the same conclusion.


http://images.cyclingtips.com.au/content/uploads/2015/06/5A-MIDAS-Results1.pdf


----------



## TricrossRich

krtassoc said:


> Rashadabd, thank you for your comments as they adequately express my thoughts regarding the arobike vs. round tube controversy.


I don't understand what the controversy is? They didn't choose to do the comparison against the bike that you'd choose?


----------



## taodemon

On a completely unrelated note 9 minutes until new Madone unveiling?


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> On a completely unrelated note 9 minutes until new Madone unveiling?


Yep, curious to see what they do with the lineup after getting a bunch of info on the bike already.


----------



## kookieCANADA

Rashadabd said:


> Yep, curious to see what they do with the lineup after getting a bunch of info on the bike already.


For Canadian prices, expensive! Even for Ultegra mechanical.


----------



## Rashadabd

kookieCANADA said:


> For Canadian prices, expensive! Even for Ultegra mechanical.


Yeah, it's a really cool looking bike, but the prices are really steep. My guess is you will see it at cheaper price points by midyear or next year.


----------



## taodemon

I like the look of the H1, not so much the H2, and the H1 is more expensive than the venge for the full bike and the frameset is about the same. 

Do they have their aero numbers somewhere?


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> I like the look of the H1, not so much the H2, and the H1 is more expensive than the venge for the full bike and the frameset is about the same.
> 
> Do they have their aero numbers somewhere?


I am sure that new Foil 30 is starting to look a lot more attractive to some that are committed to get an aero bike.


----------



## taodemon

With the prices both specialized and trek are asking I'll just stick to my current venge for another year or two. I really like what they are doing with the new bikes but the prices are still too high.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> With the prices both specialized and trek are asking I'll just stick to my current venge for another year or two. I really like what they are doing with the new bikes but the prices are still too high.


That sounds like the smartest move. The new Madone is one of the most beautiful bikes I have ever seen, but the prices are way too far out there for my interest. Letting the technology trickle down and catching it at a better price point seems like the sweet spot. 

So far, the Madone, the new Giant TCR, and the new Supersix Evo and Caad12 are my bike of the year candidates. When I factor in price and what you appear to get performance-wise on the dollar, the Caad12 wins hands down. I love that bike.


----------



## taodemon

The aero on the new madone doesn't look that impressive compared to the ViAS. It seems to do better than a s5 at yaw but head on the s5 seems to have less drag than it, and the new venge seems to have distanced itself from the s5 in all situations by noticeably more. 

Madone is at least winning in the looks department. The new seat adjustment thing is neat along with some of its other features. But for the price they are asking I would expect better Aero.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> The aero on the new madone doesn't look that impressive compared to the ViAS. It seems to do better than a s5 at yaw but head on the s5 seems to have less drag than it, and the new venge seems to have distanced itself from the s5 in all situations by noticeably more.
> 
> Madone is at least winning in the looks department. The new seat adjustment thing is neat along with some of its other features. But for the price they are asking I would expect better Aero.


Complete bike to complete bike, I don't see how another aero bike can touch it. It has too many cool features and seems like it is more than aero enough.


----------



## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> Complete bike to complete bike, I don't see how another aero bike can touch it. It has too many cool features and seems like it is more than aero enough.


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> View attachment 307173


First, I am pretty sure, that's the old Madone. Second, what I mean by complete bike is when you move beyond just considering aero and start to think about things like comfort, bb and front end stiffness, and the coolness factor, integration, the Trek wins.


----------



## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> First, I am pretty sure, that's the old Madone. Second, what I mean by complete bike is when you move beyond just considering aero and start to think about things like comfort, bb and front end stiffness, and the coolness factor, integration, the Trek wins.


It is up on the trek website under the new madone under features and advance aerodynamics.

Madone Race Shop Limited - Trek Bicycle


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> It is up on the trek website under the new madone under features and advance aerodynamics.
> 
> Madone Race Shop Limited - Trek Bicycle


I still stand by what I have said all along, a great bike is made up of more than aerodynamics, and the Madone sure appears to be a great bike


----------



## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> I still stand by what I have said all along, a great bike is made up of more than aerodynamics, and the Madone sure appears to be a great bike


I don't disagree with that, and it is definitely the best looking of these new bikes, and the iso speed might just be what a lot of people need to consider a "uncomfortable" aero bike. I just expected more aero from it I guess.


----------



## krtassoc

I like this one:

https://blog-imgs-73-origin.fc2.com/d/a/d/daddynews/DSC07814.jpg

(On a relative basis...reasonably priced.)


----------



## Rashadabd

Why Trek says aero isn't exactly everything:

Leading Edge Chapter 8: Trek, Making Madone


----------



## 1Butcher

TricrossRich said:


> Me... or him?


Him, of course.


----------



## taodemon

Rashadabd said:


> Why Trek says aero isn't exactly everything:
> 
> Leading Edge Chapter 8: Trek, Making Madone


I really don't like how you can only get the H1 fit in the most expensive model. I don't mind going slightly heavier carbon but that H2 fit really screws up the look of the bike. =\

On a plus note trek does offer financing?


----------



## vitin

tdf in utrecht


----------



## TricrossRich

vitin said:


> View attachment 307269
> tdf in utrecht


That's Chris Riekert from Specialized... he posted a blue Porsche on his instagram.


----------



## taodemon

TricrossRich said:


> That's Chris Riekert from Specialized... he posted a blue Porsche on his instagram.


I believe Chris Yu might be with him as well.


----------



## thumper8888

Now they have pulled the frameset entirely from their website.
$8,000 Pro model is the only way in, no matter what parts you have already invested in. How many people want Pro cranks? And what are the CL version of the wheels? 1900 gram versions?
Presumably they will put that back on the market at some point, when all the dentists and stockbrokers have been sated with $12,500 Di2 models.
Madone frameset still up. It too is about $2,500 more than makes sense.
I'd love to see someone dissect the costs and profits in these. I know the bike shops make zip off them, and there is a gray area in engineering and tooling costs.
But if there is more than $300 in carbon in one of these things I'll buy and eat one.


----------



## 1Butcher

thumper8888 said:


> I know the bike shops make zip off them, and there is a gray area in engineering and tooling costs.
> But if there is more than $300 in carbon in one of these things I'll buy and eat one.


Comments like this are sad. It appears that you believe no company should make a profit in what they make. All the employees should work for free and the money they spent in making a wind tunnel should not be recouped.

How about this thought. Maybe you are not worth much because it appears you do not make much money. Maybe you do and you are a hoarder and want to keep all the money you make. 

No one ever said you have to buy the bike. No one ever said Specialized [or any other company] is marketing the item for you. There are many other people in the world that bust there butt and make a boat load of money. They happen to like bikes too. That is their goal. Making a fast bike. They also want to make a profit so they can take it to the next level. They want to pay their employee/stock holders so they can get the best to continue to stay in business.

How about looking at it this way. The carbon manufacturers should give away their product too. Since they should, so should the glue people, the electrical companies that supply the power, etc. How about we start a communist community and all just give away everything. Oh yeah, that is just crazy talk. Just as crazy as, 'But if there is more than $300 in carbon in one of these things I'll buy and eat one.'

If it is too expensive for you, too bad. I'm happy that there are enough people out there that they can make and market a bike like that. In a few years, I can purchase a used one that I will enjoy [because I'm cheap].


----------



## vertr

thumper8888 said:


> Now they have pulled the frameset entirely from their website.
> $8,000 Pro model is the only way in, no matter what parts you have already invested in.


I doubt it's gone for good. Stop making stupid assumptions. The website is in pre-release state.


----------



## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> Comments like this are sad. It appears that you believe no company should make a profit in what they make. All the employees should work for free and the money they spent in making a wind tunnel should not be recouped.
> 
> How about this thought. Maybe you are not worth much because it appears you do not make much money. Maybe you do and you are a hoarder and want to keep all the money you make.


I think I was unclear, or for some other reason you misunderstood. I'm all for a profit, free enterprise etc... and for innovators like Specialized, I think there should be an even larger margin, as there is risk that goes with innovation. 
I just think past a certain point, it's appropriate to comment. They are approaching a doubling of previous frame price, which was already widely regarded as retail plus.
I think it's OK for me to point this out without attracting what sounds like a personal attack.
Whether I make very little -- and I make enough change high end bikes whenever I want -- is not relevant to either the point I was making or whether I'm "worth much."
Your income has zero to do with your character. Please take it down a notch.
Thanks.


----------



## thumper8888

vertr said:


> I doubt it's gone for good. Stop making stupid assumptions. The website is in pre-release state.



Geez, what brought that on? How about a constructive tone, like, "I doubt it's gone for good. I really wouldn't make an assumption like that" instead of jumping out and calling me stupid, with, I might add, no evidence of stupidity.
You seem to have overlooked that I clearly wrote: "Presumably they will put that back on the market at some point..."
There was some talk in the early press reports that the frames wouldn't be available till a few months after the full bikes. It appears that they probably decided it wasn't wise to take orders so far in advance, so pulled it for now... and the frame will pop back up in August or September, depending on how sales go generally...


----------



## 1Butcher

Stupid is a person attack. 

Saying it is sad to read your comment is not personal [well, I don't think so]. Saying you had a crazy statement, does not seem personal to me either.

All said and done, the frame is not marketed for you or I, but I'm all for them to charge as much as the market will bear [regardless to how much it costs]. Heck, they can put a McLaren sticker on it and charge even more is just fine with me.


----------



## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> Stupid is a person attack.
> 
> Saying it is sad to read your comment is not personal [well, I don't think so]. Saying you had a crazy statement, does not seem personal to me either.
> 
> All said and done, the frame is not marketed for you or I, but I'm all for them to charge as much as the market will bear [regardless to how much it costs]. Heck, they can put a McLaren sticker on it and charge even more is just fine with me.


Pretty much all true. And I warrant you they WILL gin up a McLaren version and get $20k for it. Can't think why they wouldn't, it has worked twice before and sold out pretty quickly.
Part of my point was just wondering where the justification for the jump is. The basic material costs are no different. 
they prob have a couple hundred in the brakes and the same in the bar/stem, which are add-ons vs the old venge.
I think basically what happened was they looked at things like the Dogma F8 price point, which is kind of silly for that much lesser design, and saw the market would bear it.


----------



## 1Butcher

The basic material cost has very little to do with the market price of an item. 

Ever wonder why the cost of oil goes up and down? It should be free cause it's in the ground. But wait, you have to pump it up, filter, distill, etc. Then the market dictates that there is some global issues and it goes up double over night. Then three weeks later, it drops because the world is now in harmony. 

Why does it change so much? The cost to get it out of the ground has not really changed. Your thought process how business works is a little naive. Specialized came up with a price due to several factors. One of the reasons for the price is 'Because we can' and no other reason than that.

If we were talking about a necessity like food, water, drugs, then maybe there should be controls. We are talking about a bike frame that no one really needs. If Specialized got it wrong, they will have 'rebates', coupon specials, or other incentives to get them off the books.


----------



## davidka

thumper8888 said:


> Part of my point was just wondering where the justification for the jump is. The basic material costs are no different.
> they prob have a couple hundred in the brakes and the same in the bar/stem, which are add-ons vs the old venge.


I can offer you a few reasons why this (and the new Madone) cost so much more than their predecessors:
* They took a lot of resources to develop and make. Both of these companies have an army of engineers to pay and both of these bikes took a ton of their paid time to design/develop.
* They are very hard to make. Carbon fiber isn't any easier to work with than it has been but these designs are far more complicated. It is more likely that Specialized helps McLaren with their carbon tech than the other way around.
* These are more proprietary than bikes before them. Every proprietary part reduces the number of price points they can reach with these bikes. The reduction in models reduces the total number of bikes they can make to absorb the costs of bringing them to market.
* The customer will pay. Maybe not you and me, but they know that there are currently more people willing to spend $12.5k on an exotic super-bike then they have the production capacity to serve. They'll sell every one and likely lose many sales for not having enough of them (it's probably a smaller number than we'd think).


----------



## thumper8888

1Butcher said:


> The basic material cost has very little to do with the market price of an item.
> 
> Ever wonder why the cost of oil goes up and down? It should be free cause it's in the ground. But wait, you have to pump it up, filter, distill, etc. Then the market dictates that there is some global issues and it goes up double over night. Then three weeks later, it drops because the world is now in harmony.
> 
> Why does it change so much? The cost to get it out of the ground has not really changed. Your thought process how business works is a little naive. Specialized came up with a price due to several factors. One of the reasons for the price is 'Because we can' and no other reason than that.
> 
> If we were talking about a necessity like food, water, drugs, then maybe there should be controls. We are talking about a bike frame that no one really needs. If Specialized got it wrong, they will have 'rebates', coupon specials, or other incentives to get them off the books.


Ummm, I went to business school. And I'm not advocating price controls, or any sort of socialist approach to bike pricing... truly bad idea. I'm just trying to wrap my head more fully around how much of the cost is the "because we can" factor, and to a lesser degree wondering about the engineering costs they factor in.
The answers probably can't be more precise than speculation.
But yeah, clearly if they build a wind tunnel, that cost has to be spread into their pricing, for example. Ditto salaries of folks like Yu etc. who aren't part of the picture at smaller companies....we can't really know those costs probably. But the "because we can" thing is the interesting part for anyone interested in the intersection of engineering and marketing.
Would be interesting to know how they set that, to what degree a price is based on WAG, vs. how much they use tools like focus groups etc.
Specialized would be a great case study at various junctures for any number of marketing classes... They're really, really, well run form the standpoint of how to wring profit from a business that hadn't been known for much of that. The controls they have on pricing at the dealer level are really effective, and the thing that makes those possible is their products are sharply differentiated, by dint of engineering, marketing and careful placment in --- and sometimes even defining of -- market segments.
As someone who appreciates a well-run private company that has adventurous entrepreneurial quirks (clearly D'alusio isn't kept on a leash, and that has really interesting effects), as opposed to, say, the kind of short-term "vision" you often see from public companies this size, I applaud it.
Now, as a consumer, it's not my duty to blindly pay whatever is asked out of fanboy loyalty, but rather try to figure out a way to reduce the tariff to me personally. 
Oil isn't a particularly good case study to compare with specialized's business model. Serious apples to oranges issues there.
You and the poster below you are right in your analysis of the nature of the various reasons they're charging that much.
My analytical side just wants to get some rough sense of HOW MUCH is due to A, how much to B, and how much to C. 
And really the answers can be only speculative... that's all I was looking for.


----------



## goodboyr

Lol. Makes me wonder why I bought my RCA......


----------



## davidka

Worth noting- the wind was the biggest deciding factor in today's TdF stage. None of the QS/Etixx riders used the new Venge. Sagan's was the only one I found (wasn't looking that hard..).


----------



## spdntrxi

davidka said:


> Worth noting- the wind was the biggest deciding factor in today's TdF stage. None of the QS/Etixx riders used the new Venge. Sagan's was the only one I found (wasn't looking that hard..).


Cav had one


----------



## Superdave3T

thumper8888 said:


> Pretty much all true. And I warrant you they WILL gin up a McLaren version and get $20k for it. Can't think why they wouldn't, it has worked twice before and sold out pretty quickly.
> Part of my point was just wondering where the justification for the jump is. The basic material costs are no different.
> they prob have a couple hundred in the brakes and the same in the bar/stem, which are add-ons vs the old venge.
> I think basically what happened was they looked at things like the Dogma F8 price point, which is kind of silly for that much lesser design, and saw the market would bear it.


They _built_ a wind tunnel, have many engineers stationed all over the globe. They have 3 World Tour Teams with most of the best riders in the world. You don't think consumers are footing that bill? 

-SD


----------



## Dunbar

Just be patient and wait for the new Venge to trickle down to the Pro and Expert level. It might take a year or two but I wouldn't complain about it being $-Works only at release.


----------



## thumper8888

SuperdaveFelt said:


> They _built_ a wind tunnel, have many engineers stationed all over the globe. They have 3 World Tour Teams with most of the best riders in the world. You don't think consumers are footing that bill?
> 
> -SD


I fully understand that those costs are sunk in the prices. 
But they already had those world tour teams. And those engineers. Those costs were built into the price of previous venge. I'm asking about the 
additions to that $3,500 frameset price.
it's reasonable to ask -- more or less rhetorically -- when an already very well-engineered, and all ready relatively high-priced, frameset jumps 64 percent in price why it did so.
You're in the industry. I wouldn't ask you about markup, nor do I need to...but you're pretty well positioned to give a guesstimate as to how much of the cost of the bike is engineering, including the tunnel, and how much is the new proprietary brakes/bars/stem.


----------



## Rashadabd

SuperdaveFelt said:


> They _built_ a wind tunnel, have many engineers stationed all over the globe. They have 3 World Tour Teams with most of the best riders in the world. You don't think consumers are footing that bill?
> 
> -SD


Which is why, at this point, I am doing my best to stay loyal to brands like Felt, Fuji, Giant, and Cannondale, which bring us quality products at prices we can afford. It really is in most of our best interests to do so if you ask me. 

Again, the AR, Propel, and Transonic may not look like they have all the bells and whistles when compared to the new Madone and Venge, but they are really competitive aero race bikes if set up correctly (wheels and cockpit). In fact, the crit national champ rides an AR if recollection serves. Knowing stuff like that, I don't personally get why you pay more or invest much effort in expressing frustration about Specialized's and Trek's pricing. There are really good affordable alternatives out there. Vote with your wallet I say.


----------



## Rashadabd

Dan Holloway does ride a Felt AR1:

Pro Bike Gallery: Daniel Holloway's Felt AR1 - VeloNews.com


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> And those engineers. Those costs were built into the price of previous venge.


Do you really think the engineers costs were covered with the first Venge? What about the design time spent on the new bike?

Quit complaining about the bike... if you don't like it, don't buy it. If it's too expensive, don't buy it... pretty simple.


----------



## MartinR.

I can also offer one of the reasons why this (and the new Madone) cost so much more than their predecessors: Specialized hired Chris Yu (lead Aerodynamics R&D Engineer) with a degree from Caltech and PhD degree from Stanford. He previously worked for NASA Ames Research Laboratory and then for Honeywell Aerospace testing the aircraft Emergency Ram Air Turbines (used on the Boeing 777).


----------



## TricrossRich

MartinR. said:


> I can also offer one of the reasons why this (and the new Madone) cost so much more than their predecessors: Specialized hired Chris Yu (lead Aerodynamics R&D Engineer) with a degree from Caltech and PhD degree from Stanford. Previously he worked for NASA Ames Research Laboratory and then for Honeywell Aerospace testing the aircraft Emergency Ram Air Turbines (used on the Boeing 777).


C'mon.... those degrees are just pieces of paper though, I'd love to know what the costs of those pieces of paper were... 3 maybe 4 cents each... a few more cents for the ink on them. It cost cost much to make paper, the chainsaws to cut down the trees were already paid for... LOL


----------



## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> Do you really think the engineers costs were covered with the first Venge? What about the design time spent on the new bike?
> 
> Quit complaining about the bike... if you don't like it, don't buy it. If it's too expensive, don't buy it... pretty simple.


My bad. Thought it was a discussion forum. Will just accept Specialized's wisdom without further comment for the rest of my days. Everyone else should too.
Done with this thread, thanks much.


----------



## MartinR.

TricrossRich said:


> C'mon.... those degrees are just pieces of paper though, I'd love to know what the costs of those pieces of paper were... 3 maybe 4 cents each... a few more cents for the ink on them. It cost cost much to make paper, the chainsaws to cut down the trees were already paid for... LOL


Well, since there are at least two great sprinters competing at the TdF on the new Venge, we will have to wait and see if the rocket scientists have delivered. It will be hard for them to blame the riders - when it is supposed to be 120 seconds faster than a Tarmac SL4 over 40km...and then Cancellara beats Cavendish on his endurance bike...LOL


----------



## Rashadabd

MartinR. said:


> Well, since there are at least two great sprinters competing at the TdF on the new Venge, we will have to wait and see if the rocket scientists have delivered. It will be hard for them to blame the riders - when it is supposed to be 120 seconds faster than a Tarmac SL4 over 40km...and then Cancellara beats Cavendish on his endurance bike...LOL


Ha! 😄


----------



## TricrossRich

thumper8888 said:


> My bad. Thought it was a discussion forum. Will just accept Specialized's wisdom without further comment for the rest of my days. Everyone else should too.
> Done with this thread, thanks much.


Its one thing to discuss the advantages/disadvantages to the design of the bike vs. other bikes and competitors.... Its a completely different thing to whine and complain about the price and demand an itemized breakdown of the costs and expenses of the bike to determine if the the manufacturer is being fair.

This is a free market and Specialized can charge anything they want.... they certainly have the right to make a profit on the product they've invested in, not simply break even, as you're suggesting they should. As Rashadadb said, "vote with your wallet." The bike isn't for me... too expensive for my pay grade, but so was the last SWorks Venge, which is why I have a Venge Pro.... maybe some day, but not tomorrow.


----------



## willembad

So Sagan flats with 15k to go, switches bikes (ViAS) and rides back on solo to get second. Max speed while chasing back: 73.33 km/h.

Ha!


----------



## HyperSprite

TricrossRich said:


> This is a free market and Specialized can charge anything they want.... they certainly have the right to make a profit on the product they've invested in, not simply break even, as you're suggesting they should. As Rashadadb said, "vote with your wallet."


Well said.


----------



## MartinR.

willembad said:


> So Sagan flats with 15k to go, switches bikes (ViAS) and rides back on solo to get second. Max speed while chasing back: 73.33 km/h.
> 
> Ha!


I intentionally didn't mention Sagan, because I do not want to bash my fellow (and beloved) countryman! I was just surprised/shocked he did not win


----------



## davidka

willembad said:


> So Sagan flats with 15k to go, switches bikes (ViAS) and rides back on solo to get second. Max speed while chasing back: 73.33 km/h.
> 
> Ha!


He used to win from that situation on his round-tubed Cannondale and a baggy jersey. Doh!!

Kidding aside, he was incredible. He did by himself what a large peleton couldn't. That was a really hard day for all of them. Can't wait to see what happens next.


----------



## taodemon

Specialized Bicycle Components

Not looking good for the new venge in anything but the S-Works or Pro configuration for 2016.


----------



## HyperSprite

taodemon said:


> Specialized Bicycle Components
> Not looking good for the new venge in anything but the S-Works or Pro configuration for 2016.


They do this on other models as well, if you look at the Tarmac, the Comp and lower spec bikes use what looks like the 2013 style frame.


----------



## HyperSprite

Meanwhile on Specialized.com

They took the specs off the pages of both the s-works and pro models and removed the frameset entirely.

Glitch or is something changing in that which is "subject to change without notice"


----------



## taodemon

HyperSprite said:


> They do this on other models as well, if you look at the Tarmac, the Comp and lower spec bikes use what looks like the 2013 style frame.


This is true, but the changes to the "New Tarmac" vs the old weren't nearly as significant as the changes between the ViAS and the old venge. 

The ViAS is nearly a complete redesign, while the New Tarmac was more of a fine tuning of the old one. 

Also, you can get a new Tarmac with at least an expert level bike, which is half the cost of an S-Works version, and this was an option from the first year the new tarmac was released. They don't seem to be following the same logic for the ViAS, which can only be bought for old S-Works prices for the Pro, or even more for an actual S-Works.


----------



## Dunbar

Actually the new Tarmac was a pretty significant change with the size specific layup. Also, when the new Tarmac was released last year, shops were only able to get stock on the S-Works version for the first 2-3 months. Although it wouldn't surprise me if Specialized waits a year or two to offer the new Venge with cheaper wheels and an Ultegra level groupset. I think it's more profitable for them to let the early adopters pay their early upgrade tax to be the first ones to get their hands on the bike.


----------



## Italianrider76

TricrossRich said:


> Specialized is claiming that if you were to ride a standard round tube road bike with box section wheels, baggy jersey, non-aero helmet on a given 40K TT route and then do the same course, outputting the same power over that same course, but using their entire system, including bike, wheels, tires, skin suit and helmet, you'd save 5 minutes. if you review the wind tunnel figures and the road data collected by McLaren, you'd see that the claim is correct.


Kinda funny though how somehow you're required to buy more Specialized gear in order to make those gains. Do you think this is coincidental?


----------



## shamantails

Italianrider76 said:


> Kinda funny though how somehow you're required to buy more Specialized gear in order to make those gains. Do you think this is coincidental?


No. Specialized want you to buy specialized gear; business model 101.


----------



## Italianrider76

shamantails said:


> No. Specialized want you to buy specialized gear; business model 101.


That's what I was getting at but I'm sure the Specialized fanboys will swear by this data.


----------



## taodemon

Italianrider76 said:


> That's what I was getting at but I'm sure the Specialized fanboys will swear by this data.


I'm sure there are other aero helmets with similar time savings as well as other brand skin suits that could probably give you similar results. They are just providing everything under one convenient roof. It makes sense for them to do it from a business standpoint since they already make helmets, shoes and clothing. I mean, why would they advertise someone else's skin suit, helm and shoes as part of their 5 minute package if they can do it with their own stuff?

Basic logic at work here.

A better question would be how specialized skin suit compares to other options in cost and effectiveness. They are claiming 96 seconds for $500, which is a lot cheaper than the bike and in line with the 46s on the helmet for $250. But how does that compare to other brand skin suits in price and time savings?


----------



## MMsRepBike

So what bike has Cav been riding the last couple days? What bike did he choose for the bunch sprint today? 

hint: not this one.


----------



## taodemon

MMsRepBike said:


> So what bike has Cav been riding the last couple days? What bike did he choose for the bunch sprint today?
> 
> hint: not this one.


Both him and Sagan were on the old venge today. Their reason for not being on the new one could be just about anything. Before the new venge Sagan would already switch between a tarmac and a venge depending on the stage.

Yesterday was cobbles... Sagan on a roubaix, Cav on the old venge (ouch). The two previous days they were both on the new venge. 

Two days on, two days off, I wouldn't read too much into it unless they ignore the new venge for the rest of the tour. Not saying you couldn't be right, just too early to tell right now.


----------



## lockies

I do wonder about those new brakes...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cav told me he doesn't like the brakes on the new Venge ViAS, won't ride it in mountains or rain. He's on the old Venge today.</p>— Caley Fretz (@CaleyFretz) <a href="https://twitter.com/CaleyFretz/status/618785324018335744">July 8, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## taodemon

lockies said:


> I do wonder about those new brakes...


----------



## Stoneman

Evidently being able to stop is important in this crashfest otherwise known as the Tour de France. #brakesareimportant


----------



## MMsRepBike

Yes of course, only there is it important. The regular folks should be just fine with them.

possibly unrelated note:

With the frame being almost 1200g unpainted, riding a painted version would be like riding two bikes at the same time. How fun would that be going uphill?


----------



## taodemon

Are the propriety brakes part of that weight?

On an unrelated note, it seems Canada might be getting a 105 non S-Works Sagan version of the frame (Similar to how they had the OPQS frame in 2014). 

Specialized Bicycle Components

The expert will also just be the old venge and it looks like they are keeping the colors identical to this years expert which is pretty lame.

If both Cav and Sagan are avoiding the ViAS at the moment maybe some aspects of it will need to be taken back to the drawing board.


----------



## chrisyu

Bottom line, both Cav and Sagan are happy with the new bike but the reality is we got race ready bikes to them too late for them to feel immediately comfortable replacing their old bikes at a big race like the TdF - a misstep on our part due to pushing timing on getting everything done. Stuff as simple as a different drop shape all the way to different cornering and sprinting feel, combined with the high stress of the TdF means they have been (and will be) going back and forth in an attempt to adapt to the new bike as seamlessly as possible. 

For example, Cav's primary bike had/has some pre-production prototype parts on it - we were able to swap out that stuff on his spare bike right at the TdF start but he wasn't comfortable immediately racing on it not having done any long rides on it yet, which is understandable. So we're in a bit of a transition as we get their bikes fully up to production spec. It just happens that we're making that transition during the biggest race of the year. Not ideal, but I personally think it speaks to the performance of the bike that the teams and riders are even willing to entertain doing it (typically, this would be a huge no go). 

Re: Cav and brakes, not sure what exactly was said, but I'm willing to bet it was referring to an initial build of his first bike which again had pre-production parts as well as a couple of other build issues. I believe this has all been addressed on his 2nd bike and his comments were likely in reference to the specific build he was riding then. We're committed to having everything absolutely dialed for our riders, pro and otherwise.


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## TricrossRich

chrisyu said:


> Bottom line, both Cav and Sagan are happy with the new bike but the reality is we got race ready bikes to them too late for them to feel immediately comfortable replacing their old bikes at a big race like the TdF - a misstep on our part due to pushing timing on getting everything done. Stuff as simple as a different drop shape all the way to different cornering and sprinting feel, combined with the high stress of the TdF means they have been (and will be) going back and forth in an attempt to adapt to the new bike as seamlessly as possible.
> 
> For example, Cav's primary bike had/has some pre-production prototype parts on it - we were able to swap out that stuff on his spare bike right at the TdF start but he wasn't comfortable immediately racing on it not having done any long rides on it yet, which is understandable. So we're in a bit of a transition as we get their bikes fully up to production spec. It just happens that we're making that transition during the biggest race of the year. Not ideal, but I personally think it speaks to the performance of the bike that the teams and riders are even willing to entertain doing it (typically, this would be a huge no go).
> 
> Re: Cav and brakes, not sure what exactly was said, but I'm willing to bet it was referring to an initial build of his first bike which again had pre-production parts as well as a couple of other build issues. I believe this has all been addressed on his 2nd bike and his comments were likely in reference to the specific build he was riding then. We're committed to having everything absolutely dialed for our riders, pro and otherwise.


Fair enough Chris Yu... You're a straight shooter and I appreciate the fact that you're coming here to answer our questions, when you could be ripping around France in a blue Porsche.... wait, why are you hear answering our questions? LOL. I think your answer makes sense.


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## Cinelli 82220

Prototypes that are okay to try out in a few races. 
The Tour is too big for untried stuff, best to stick with tried and true that Cav and Sagan are comfortable with.


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## taodemon

They were both back on the ViAS today, and Cav got his first win of this years Tour.


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## krtassoc

Is it all just marketing? Crankpunk - The Velocite Syn vs Scott, Trek and Specialized... is it all just marketing bollocks?


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## Cinelli 82220

Velocite article is bollocks."is it just SEO for Velocite?", no it's shilling for Velocite.

Claiming they are the first to consider the aerodynamic effects of water bottle is ridiculous.


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## aclinjury

chrisyu said:


> Bottom line, both Cav and Sagan are happy with the new bike but the reality is we got race ready bikes to them too late for them to feel immediately comfortable replacing their old bikes at a big race like the TdF - a misstep on our part due to pushing timing on getting everything done. Stuff as simple as a different drop shape all the way to different cornering and sprinting feel, combined with the high stress of the TdF means they have been (and will be) going back and forth in an attempt to adapt to the new bike as seamlessly as possible.
> 
> For example, Cav's primary bike had/has some pre-production prototype parts on it - we were able to swap out that stuff on his spare bike right at the TdF start but he wasn't comfortable immediately racing on it not having done any long rides on it yet, which is understandable. So we're in a bit of a transition as we get their bikes fully up to production spec. It just happens that we're making that transition during the biggest race of the year. Not ideal, but I personally think it speaks to the performance of the bike that the teams and riders are even willing to entertain doing it (typically, this would be a huge no go).
> 
> Re: Cav and brakes, not sure what exactly was said, but I'm willing to bet it was referring to an initial build of his first bike which again had pre-production parts as well as a couple of other build issues. I believe this has all been addressed on his 2nd bike and his comments were likely in reference to the specific build he was riding then. We're committed to having everything absolutely dialed for our riders, pro and otherwise.


Bottomline, Marcel Kittel is out. Kittel is the Venge killer. Kittle makes Venge standstill.

oh btw, how is team Astana and Tinkoff doing in the TdF stage 9 TTT? Pretty sure they would dominate since they are sporting the latest high-tech aero-tech wind-tunnel-tech that the Specialized scientists can dish out right?


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## aclinjury

MartinR. said:


> I can also offer one of the reasons why this (and the new Madone) cost so much more than their predecessors: Specialized hired Chris Yu (lead Aerodynamics R&D Engineer) with a degree from Caltech and PhD degree from Stanford. He previously worked for NASA Ames Research Laboratory and then for Honeywell Aerospace testing the aircraft Emergency Ram Air Turbines (used on the Boeing 777).


NASA scientist huh? Stanford PhD huh? The way he has been all over Youtube and cycling forums running the Specialized ad campaign, one thinks he's more marketer than scientist.


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## aclinjury

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Velocite article is bollocks."is it just SEO for Velocite?", no it's shilling for Velocite.
> 
> Claiming they are the first to consider the aerodynamic effects of water bottle is ridiculous.


well it's a blog of a guy who's sponsored by Velocite. it's no different than all the big media venues hyping every new product from every big manufacturer

But you have to admit, take out the seatpost and stem, then the Syn and Venge look remarkably similar eh, except for the disc on the Syn. You can bet that when Speicalized release the disc version of the Venge, it will be another mini wave of "innovation" from Specialized.


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## Chader09

aclinjury said:


> NASA scientist huh? Stanford PhD huh? The way he has been all over Youtube and cycling forums running the Specialized ad campaign, one thinks he's more marketer than scientist.


It may seem that way if these recent posts are your only experience with Chris. I've been fortunate enough to spend some time in the tunnel with him during SBCU training the last two years. He is very professional and knowledgeable about everything aero related.

He answered tons of questions from us students and was on top of everything mentioned. They clearly spend plenty of time and thought looking at every aspect of aero and riding/racing.


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## davidka

aclinjury said:


> NASA scientist huh? Stanford PhD huh? The way he has been all over Youtube and cycling forums running the Specialized ad campaign, one thinks he's more marketer than scientist.


 Would you prefer a hired model talking into the camera saying, "Chris Yu said..." or hearing it from the people who did the work?

I say hat's off to the guy for coming on here and addressing the enthusiasts' questions. He certainly doesn't need to do that to protect the bike's sales.


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## aclinjury

Chader09 said:


> It may seem that way if these recent posts are your only experience with Chris. I've been fortunate enough to spend some time in the tunnel with him during SBCU training the last two years. He is very professional and knowledgeable about everything aero related.
> 
> He answered tons of questions from us students and was on top of everything mentioned. They clearly spend plenty of time and thought looking at every aspect of aero and riding/racing.


And I don't have an issue with him or anyone talking about the technical of the science. Where I question is the marketing aspect of the business in relation to the bold claim of the science. And Specialized seems to be the master of mixing science with marketing. This is my problem with their ad campaign. And furthermore more, they are testing an aero package that includes many other things aside from the frame, (wheels, helmet, shoes, clothes, etc, but run their ad campaign to be as if it's just the bike. Like I say, they are the master at mixing science and marketing.


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## aclinjury

davidka said:


> Would you prefer a hired model talking into the camera saying, "Chris Yu said..." or hearing it from the people who did the work?
> 
> I say hat's off to the guy for coming on here and addressing the enthusiasts' questions. He certainly doesn't need to do that to protect the bike's sales.



He's being paid by Specialized to defend a Specialized product. Seems like a typical thing to do. Plenty of other manufacturers' representatives have come on RBR to defend their company, be it a product or service. It's a hat's-off for them, but hardly a precedence.


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## TricrossRich

aclinjury said:


> And I don't have an issue with him or anyone talking about the technical of the science. Where I question is the marketing aspect of the business in relation to the bold claim of the science. And Specialized seems to be the master of mixing science with marketing. This is my problem with their ad campaign. And furthermore more, they are testing an aero package that includes many other things aside from the frame, (wheels, helmet, shoes, clothes, etc, but run their ad campaign to be as if it's just the bike. Like I say, they are the master at mixing science and marketing.


Where in their ad campaign have they misconstrued the point that the total advantage of the entire package of items is representative of just the bike? You're being ridiculous.



aclinjury said:


> He's being paid by Specialized to defend a Specialized product. Seems like a typical thing to do. Plenty of other manufacturers' representatives have come on RBR to defend their company, be it a product or service. It's a hat's-off for them, but hardly a precedence.


Wait... so first you knock him for taking part in the ad campaign saying that Specialized is mixing science with marketing being untruthful and then a few posts later you say that what Specialized is doing is really no different than other company and shouldn't be acknowledged for having one of their leading r&d guys here answering our questions... so which one is it? Or do you just not like Specialized and you want to knock on them for whatever they do?

I'm a Specialized fan, admittedly.... but I'm also just a fan of technology and going faster in general, so I've been following all of the new bike releases. I haven't seen Trek or Scott doing anything like this, having someone here responding to questions and concerns, but maybe I've missed it. I am definitely a fan of the new Venge and the design and development that Specialized seems to have put into it. I think they've made some innovations in areas and thought outside the box in a number of locations... I'm still not sold on the bike... I'd want to test ride one first, but it has me interested. The new Scott has me interested too, as does the Trek (although, i can't stand Trek as a brand).


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## Merc

I ordered a Venge ViAS frame a couple of weeks ago and will build it up with dura ace di2 9070. My question is which wheelset should I go with? I was either going to run a set of Zipp 404 firecrests that have the newer rear hub that I got last year or some Enve 6.7s that I got about 4 months ago. Or should I go with Specialized's new wheelset, the Roval Rapide CLX64? I understand that the Roval Rapide CLX64's were designed around the new Venge (or is it the other way around), I was just wondering if you think these wheels will be or are better than the Zipps and Enve wheels that I already have. Thanks.


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## Dunbar

If you already have the Zipp 404 FC's and Enve 6.7's I would use those. Just from seeing the Tour wind tunnel data on the HED vs. Zipp I'm guessing the CLX64's only do a few watts better than the 404's at higher yaw angles. 

Another option is buying the Venge Pro Vias bike to get the CL64's. Sell off the groupset to recoup some money. At this point we don't know the difference between the CL and CLX wheelset is.


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## vertr

Dunbar said:


> If you already have the Zipp 404 FC's and Enve 6.7's I would use those. Just from seeing the Tour wind tunnel data on the HED vs. Zipp I'm guessing the CLX64's only do a few watts better than the 404's at higher yaw angles.
> 
> Another option is buying the Venge Pro Vias bike to get the CL64's. Sell off the groupset to recoup some money. At this point we don't know the difference between the CL and CLX wheelset is.


Usually just different hubs that weigh more.


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## spdntrxi

vertr said:


> Usually just different hubs that weigh more.


CLX is ceramic


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## Dunbar

spdntrxi said:


> CLX is ceramic


If that's the only difference I would buy the complete Venge Pro Vias bike to get the CL64's. Assuming you can clear $1k for the DA9000 group that's a set of pretty aero wheels w/ warranty for about an extra $1000-1200.


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## spdntrxi

Dunbar said:


> If that's the only difference I would buy the complete Venge Pro Vias bike to get the CL64's. Assuming you can clear $1k for the DA9000 group that's a set of pretty aero wheels w/ warranty for about an extra $1000-1200.


based off CL40 vs CLX40.. you mean to tell me that S-WORKS sticker does not mean anything to you ? ..


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## NealH

CLX has ceramic bearings and different spokes than the CL according to Chris Wu on another forum. But he also indicated its not something that a person can tell, and even a lab would struggle to see any difference.


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## Dunbar

spdntrxi said:


> based off CL40 vs CLX40.. you mean to tell me that S-WORKS sticker does not mean anything to you ? ..


S-Works sticker? That's heresy. Specialized wants people who own other brands to buy their wheels hence the Roval branding


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## Merc

I just noticed on Specialized's website that the Venge ViAS Module price has increased from $5,800 to $6,200. Has anyone else seen this? Glad I got my order in already.


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## vertr

Merc said:


> I just noticed on Specialized's website that the Venge ViAS Module price has increased from $5,800 to $6,200. Has anyone else seen this? Glad I got my order in already.


The frameset is the worst deal anyway. The 'Pro' frame is the most cost effective, but it's still expensive. Most of Specialized frameset offerings are targeted towards teams they sponsor.


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## WRM4865

One of a handful coming into Texas right now.

Saw this at the shop today built up for a customer since they have another 56cm (just my size) on the way and knowing I can't resist new expensive toys...

I took it around the block for a spin :devil:

Holy sh*t !!! even in street clothes this thing just wants to GO! and I have no idea what they are talking about this weak brakes nonsense they about threw me over the bars much much more powerful than my SRAM Red aerolink's that came on my 2013 S-Works Venge Red.

Haters gonna hate regardless as they always do with stuff from Specialized this bike is the sh*t just from a spin around the block I'm sold. 

So now I'm contemplating on how I'm gonna sneak another S-Works toy into the house this year.


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## Merc

WRM4865 said:


> One of a handful coming into Texas right now.
> 
> Saw this at the shop today built up for a customer since they have another 56cm (just my size) on the way and knowing I can't resist new expensive toys...
> 
> I took it around the block for a spin :devil:
> 
> Holy sh*t !!! even in street clothes this thing just wants to GO! and I have no idea what they are talking about this weak brakes nonsense they about threw me over the bars much much more powerful than my SRAM Red aerolink's that came on my 2013 S-Works Venge Red.
> 
> Haters gonna hate regardless as they always do with stuff from Specialized this bike is the sh*t just from a spin around the block I'm sold.
> 
> So now I'm contemplating on how I'm gonna sneak another S-Works toy into the house this year.


Looks great and can't wait to ride one. Which shop in Texas has this?


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## Devinish2015

I may have missed it but I didn't read anything saying that the problem was specifically that the brakes are weak. Just that Cavendish said he didn't like the brakes. That could also mean that they were to strong, too grippy. "they about threw me over the bars" I could see how that might be problematic and undesirable in a race like the Tour De France. I really think the bike is beautiful, shame it's $2500 more than I plan to spend When the 54cm Venge Lunch Race comes back into stock. 
Also I would really like to see a disc brake version, that could persuade me....worn out brake tracks necessitating an expensive wheel change would be one less thing to worry about with this sizable purchase. Even if it's just 1 disc in the rear and regular brakes in the front, call me crazy. *I would be pissed if I found out that a shop let someone test ride my bike.


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## WRM4865

Devinish2015 said:


> I may have missed it but I didn't read anything saying that the problem was specifically that the brakes are weak. Just that Cavendish said he didn't like the brakes. That could also mean that they were to strong, too grippy. *"**they about threw me over the bars" * I could see how that might be problematic and undesirable in a race like the Tour De France.




It's called hyperbole... as I now realized some of you took literally after all the multiple cycling forum threads that bash, speculate and assume the bike is junk because of some reporters offhand tweet over hearsay on the brakes.

What I should of said was that the brakes work well however a complete evaluation cannot be deduced from a short spin around the block on a bike that I do not own as I wasn't going to do a full sprint and grab a handful of brake to test them.  




Devinish2015 said:


> *I would be pissed if I found out that a shop let someone test ride my bike.


Perhaps this shop knows it's customers and can differentiate between some pain in the ass crying about a bike being $2500 too expensive and customers that have bought numerous high end road, mountain and cyclocross bikes from them over the decades that they figure letting one of those type of customers take a short spin on the newsiest blingy toys leads to sales in the near future. 

Besides I know the person that bought this bike.

If I can help the shop sell a bike by having a potential customer take a spin on my bike so be it... it's not a family heirloom.


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## thumper8888

WRM4865 said:


> One of a handful coming into Texas right now.
> 
> Saw this at the shop today built up for a customer since they have another 56cm (just my size) on the way and knowing I can't resist new expensive toys...
> 
> I took it around the block for a spin :devil:
> 
> Holy sh*t !!! even in street clothes this thing just wants to GO! and I have no idea what they are talking about this weak brakes nonsense they about threw me over the bars much much more powerful than my SRAM Red aerolink's that came on my 2013 S-Works Venge Red.
> 
> Haters gonna hate regardless as they always do with stuff from Specialized this bike is the sh*t just from a spin around the block I'm sold.
> 
> So now I'm contemplating on how I'm gonna sneak another S-Works toy into the house this year.



Just so we're clear. You got this absolutely irrefutable evidence of extraordinary performance by riding the bike.... around the block ...in street clothes ... at, say, 15 mph?
And Mark Cavendish and Peter Sagan (a man with one of the most finely-attuned senses of how a bike under him behaves in the history of professional road racing), both of whom rode the bike... In the, uh TOUR DE FRANCE.... don't know what they're talking about.
Man, this marketing campaign is good.


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## Devinish2015

WRM4865 said:


> It's called [/COLOR]hyperbole... as I now realized some of you took literally after all the multiple cycling forum threads that bash, speculate and assume the bike is junk because of some reporters offhand tweet over hearsay on the brakes.
> 
> What I should of said was that the brakes work well however a complete evaluation cannot be deduced from a short spin around the block on a bike that I do not own as I wasn't going to do a full sprint and grab a handful of brake to test them.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this shop knows it's customers and can differentiate between some pain in the ass crying about a bike being $2500 too expensive and customers that have bought numerous high end road, mountain and cyclocross bikes from them over the decades that they figure letting one of those type of customers take a short spin on the newsiest blingy toys leads to sales in the near future.
> 
> Besides I know the person that bought this bike.
> 
> If I can help the shop sell a bike by having a potential customer take a spin on my bike so be it... it's not a family heirloom.


You sound like a really nice guy -It's called sarcasm. So many dick heads on this forum...


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## WRM4865

thumper8888 said:


> Just so we're clear. You got this absolutely irrefutable evidence of extraordinary performance by riding the bike.... around the block ...in street clothes ... at, say, 15 mph?


Well it is irrefutable that I've spent about 5 minutes longer in the saddle than you have on this bike.

So I got that going for me.

Is a spin around the block on a bike that wasn't fitted for me wearing street clothes really mean anything? Most likely not other than the neat-o factor if that counts for anything. 

OK we get it you are not a Specialized fan-boi and want to dissect/troll a couple "non-professional" comments I made about my brief encounter with the bike. 

Myself on the other-hand who has owned dozens and dozens of road bikes in the last two decades and with my hyper princess and the pea physical sensitivity with bikes can pretty much tell what is gonna work and what isn't for me even after a short jaunt around the block. 

My opinion was perhaps an exaggeration or coloring this bike brightly based upon a trip around the block and how I subjectively felt about it. 

Bottom line is that just from this brief tease I want one and will be eagerly waiting for the next non-pre-sold 56cm to come in the shop so I can give it a proper test ride.


----------



## thumper8888

WRM4865 said:


> Well it is irrefutable that I've spent about 5 minutes longer in the saddle than you have on this bike.
> 
> So I got that going for me.
> 
> Is a spin around the block on a bike that wasn't fitted for me wearing street clothes really mean anything? Most likely not other than the neat-o factor if that counts for anything.
> 
> OK we get it you are not a Specialized fan-boi and want to dissect/troll a couple "non-professional" comments I made about my brief encounter with the bike.
> 
> Myself on the other-hand who has owned dozens and dozens of road bikes in the last two decades and with my hyper princess and the pea physical sensitivity with bikes can pretty much tell what is gonna work and what isn't for me even after a short jaunt around the block.
> 
> My opinion was perhaps an exaggeration or coloring this bike brightly based upon a trip around the block and how I subjectively felt about it.
> 
> Bottom line is that just from this brief tease I want one and will be eagerly waiting for the next non-pre-sold 56cm to come in the shop so I can give it a proper test ride.


When you put it that way, it makes sense. You had that many bikes, no doubt you can tell what will and won't work for you. Not trying to troll, it's a fine design and ground-breaking in many ways.


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## WRM4865

thumper8888 said:


> When you put it that way, it makes sense. You had that many bikes, no doubt you can tell what will and won't work for you.


Never said or implied I was a bike/cycling expert however I've been around long enough to have owned and ridden my fair share of bikes from my first "real" road bike a  88' Cannondale black lightning  to my current S-Works Venge I've had a bit of everything along the way as a knowledge basis on what I personally like in a bike.

The great thing about cycling is that it isn't a one size fits all and we have such a large variety of really cool bicycles to choose from, so whatever makes you happy is all that matters in the end.

My mistake was that I gave a unvarnished/biased "personal" opinion on the bike partly due to the fact that this was the first one I've seen in the flesh and secondly the anticipation of actually getting to ride it to see exactly what the hype is all about. 

I'll save any further comments on it till I actually own one myself and have some quality saddle time on it. Here is another photo please note the owner swapped out the saddle and is using a Dura-Ace SRM crankset


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## thumper8888

"The great thing about cycling is that it isn't a one size fits all and we have such a large variety of really cool bicycles to choose from, so whatever makes you happy is all that matters in the end."

-- Yes, it is. It's part of what makes the sport interesting...innovation isn't all marketing. change in shifting over the last 30 years for example.
As to the seat of the pants feel, yeah, absolutely, though for me there's not much mystery with the higher end specialized bikes. Put me on a 54 with a 100mm 6 degree stem, 10 minutes to fiddle with the seat height and it's race-able right out of the box. I can't imagine this wouldn't be fine done the same way.... The stem/bar situation looks complicated on the surface but if people don't let it spook them it's probably not a big deal... it seems pretty transferable from other bikes, partic if youre coming from another specialized.


----------



## Timmy269

The Specialized venge frameset 2016 is only available in this color, what do you think about it?


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## TricrossRich

Timmy269 said:


> The Specialized venge frameset 2016 is only available in this color, what do you think about it?
> View attachment 308248


I'm not really a fan of lime green.... but it doesn't really matter what we think of it. If you like it, go for it.


----------



## WRM4865

eBay has a bunch of Venge bikes and frames for sale you might pick up one in a color and price that suites you better than compromising on a new one.

just a thought...


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## Timmy269

TricrossRich said:


> I'm not really a fan of lime green.... but it doesn't really matter what we think of it. If you like it, go for it.


The Tarmac pro frameset is a bit nicer and he is also in black with white letters


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## vertr

Timmy269 said:


> The Tarmac pro frameset is a bit nicer and he is also in black with white letters


Read the description. I believe it's navy blue.


----------



## Timmy269

vertr said:


> Read the description. I believe it's navy blue.


Yep its black, red with navy blue


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## vertr

Timmy269 said:


> Yep its black, red with navy blue


Nope. The color is: "Gloss Navy/Rocket Red/Light Blue"

As in, there is no black on the bike at all, just dark blue.


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## Timmy269

vertr said:


> Nope. The color is: "Gloss Navy/Rocket Red/Light Blue"
> 
> As in, there is no black on the bike at all, just dark blue.


mmm...
:-(


----------

