# Let_Levi_Have_A_Brain.com



## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana.


Astana / Liberty hasn't even finished the Tour since 2005. They lost the 05 Vuelta title to doping, had half the team booted before the 06 tour start, and Vino in the 07 Tour.

Astana was given a "second chance" after the 06 tour and totally effed up again in 2007. I'm actually surprised that Astana still has a licence.

Yeah, I like Levi but he screwed up signing with Astana. Teams get invited, not riders. Maybe next year.


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## Dank (Nov 26, 2006)

How much money does the team you ride for pay you? I'm thinking Astana has deep pockets. That has a big part in it, I'm sure.:idea:


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Bianchi67 said:


> Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana.
> 
> 
> Astana / Liberty hasn't ever finished the Tour since 2005. They losted the 05 Vuelta title to doping, had half the team booted before the 06 tour start, and Vino in the 07 Tour.
> ...


Not that I disagree, but the license holders for Liberty and Astana are two different entities. However, the same people that held the license (and money) during last years tour are the same who own it now, and that is enough reason to punish them.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

I think punishing them now is stupid, at best.


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

Dank said:


> How much money does the team you ride for pay you? I'm thinking Astana has deep pockets. That has a big part in it, I'm sure.:idea:


I don't follow your point... all the protour teams have big money. Some are using it to dope and others to anti-dope. Astana anti-doping practices are a year too later. Last year was their chance to cleanup, or at least try (like T-Mob).


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

*www.don'tneedmultiplethreadsforthis.com*

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=122703


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Bianchi67 said:


> Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana.


You honestly think Levi and Conti didn't think long and hard about the risks of signing with Astana??? Consider the circumstances: both ride the TdFs of their lives, then a month later -- after most of the deep pocket ProTour teams with coin to shell out in the transfer market for big-name GC riders have extended offers and landed their big riders, leaving little budget left for 2008 -- Lance Armstrong pulls the plug on Discovery, abandoning a lead sponsor search that could bring in a $15MM annual budget. Now, if you're making about $1MM annually (I figure that's what Levi is making roughly, and no doubt the 24-year-old Conti was making less but certainly earned the right to be paid a lot more after that nice bike ride he had in July), and sponsors are leaving the sport left and right, and the big window in July to grab a nice fat contract is closed, aren't you going to be more interested in making sure you secure a contract that is at least as fat if not fatter than the one you currently have from a team that is awash in sponsor funding like Astana??? Or are you going to take a huge pay cut, ride for a non-Pro Tour team and hope you get invited to the Tour??? Remember that Slipstream didn't have the budget by August to sign Levi. I'm sure if Vaughters had a crystal ball in mid-July and told the future to Levi, Levi would be wearing argyle today and David Millar and Maggie Backstedt wouldn't have gotten their Slipstream contract offers in July. 

Levi is smart and he decided -- after taking into consideration that Astana turned over new management and adopted the CSC anti-doping detection program -- that the risk of a TdF non-invite was relatively low. There's a reason everybody on this board was surprised 2 weeks ago when the news came down from ASO that Astana wouldn't be invited.

So I don't think anyone should be saying that "Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana."


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

fornaca68 said:


> So I don't think anyone should be saying that "Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana."


The post was semi-sarcastic. Like I said, I like Levi and would like to see him in the tour. 

I personally think that the Disco riders who signed with Astana were probably slightly mislead by Johan and the rest of Astana management about the teams security for this season. It wasn't long after JB signed that the riders also did. Management probably thought the signings would be their ticket to ride again this year.

How much job shopping did the riders actually do? You would think that when two podium finishers at the Tour are without a team a month later that the rumors would have been flying. I don't remember hearing anything on Levi or Conti per-Astana.

ASO and RCS both stated months ago that no one was guarantied a spot and ASO specificially mentioned Alberto.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

crumjack said:


> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=122703


LetsmakeonebigborningLevithread.org


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Einstruzende said:


> Not that I disagree, but the license holders for Liberty and Astana are two different entities. However, the same people that held the license (and money) during last years tour are the same who own it now, and that is enough reason to punish them.


Punish them for being associated with the capital of a country? They are the same team in ONLY that sense. 
And if the Tour wanted to punish teams for past involvement, there wouldn't be enough teams for them to hold the race. 
Besides, I have a feeling you'll see Johan's boys at the Tour and in yellow again.


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## smw (Mar 7, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> Not that I disagree, but the license holders for Liberty and Astana are two different entities. However, the same people that held the license (and money) during last years tour are the same who own it now, and that is enough reason to punish them.



Then High Road should also be out, as well as every other team that had a rider get busted.


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## Jett (Mar 21, 2004)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Punish them for being associated with the capital of a country? They are the same team in ONLY that sense.
> And if the Tour wanted to punish teams for past involvement, there wouldn't be enough teams for them to hold the race.
> Besides, I have a feeling you'll see Johan's boys at the Tour and in yellow again.


No, they're punishing the people who put Astana together out of the remains Liberty and said we a new team, we're clean. Well, it turned out they weren't. Now, hiring Johan, add couple high profile riders and saying they're a new team, is basically same guys, sing same old song. Why should the ASO believe them this time around? As the old saying goes “Fool me once same you; Fool me twice same on me"


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*Id' put money on the fact..*

that Levi is smarter than you think.
I'm guessing his contract has a clause whereas he still gets paid regarding of the team drama and whatever races he's invited too...team gets dumped, Levi still gets paid. 

break that contract, end up in court and sued for much more.


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

bahueh said:


> that Levi is smarter than you think.
> I'm guessing his contract has a clause whereas he still gets paid regarding of the team drama and whatever races he's invited too...team gets dumped, Levi still gets paid.
> 
> break that contract, end up in court and sued for much more.


I agree 100% with what you are stating here, NO rider/manager joining a team with a background like Astana would let a non TDF appearence affect their bottom line. However Levi is not getting any younger, and the TDF waits for no man, does he want to go down in history as the guy who could have.....


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

I also agree he gets paid either way. But once he signed the contract, he forgets about money and only think about racing and winning.

Champions are in it to win, not to collect a paycheck.

Most riders have two or three prime years for grand tours. This year is one of Levi's two or three.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Bianchi67 said:


> Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana.
> 
> 
> Astana / Liberty hasn't even finished the Tour since 2005. They lost the 05 Vuelta title to doping, had half the team booted before the 06 tour start, and Vino in the 07 Tour.
> ...


The ASO is STUPID!!! 

Astana and High Road right now probably have the CLEANEST PROGRAMS of any of the Pro Teams invited to the 2008 TDF. If they were smart, they would unify the sport by inviting ALL THE TEAMS to race this season. 

With the required Biological Passport, endless piss packs and mobile testing, anyone stupid enough to dope after all this should not only be sacked, but taken out back behind the team bus, flogged and then shot!!! :thumbsup:


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Jett said:


> No, they're punishing the people who put Astana together out of the remains Liberty and said we a new team, we're clean. Well, it turned out they weren't. Now, hiring Johan, add couple high profile riders and saying they're a new team, is basically same guys, sing same old song. Why should the ASO believe them this time around? As the old saying goes “Fool me once same you; Fool me twice same on me"


SAME = SHAME


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

master2129 said:


> With the required Biological Passport, endless piss packs and mobile testing, anyone stupid enough to dope after all this should not only be sacked, but taken out back behind the team bus, flogged and then shot!!! :thumbsup:


The ASO today basically said that the UCI is irrelevant for races on French soil. ASO will have the French Cycling Federation conduct Paris-Nice under French law and ASO has appointed a French anti-doping agency (not the UCI) to carry doping control. See cyclingnews.com


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Bianchi67 said:


> Most riders have two or three prime years for grand tours. This year is one of Levi's two or three.


Nah, I think it's year two - but who really knows


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

AJL said:


> Nah, I think it's year two - but who really knows


yeah, that's what I meant - last year, this year, and maybe next.


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## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*Dumbest thread I've read all week*

This really has to be the dumbest thread I've come across all week. If the poster really believes what he post........I really fee sorry for him/her - such a narrow mind.

I really do not understand how people think Astana should be banned? Granted if it was the same team as last year - sure, easy to understand, but it's not even close!
If they were notified last year that they would be banned in 2008 and new members joined the team - sure I agree with the statement.

Michael





Bianchi67 said:


> Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana.
> 
> 
> Astana / Liberty hasn't even finished the Tour since 2005. They lost the 05 Vuelta title to doping, had half the team booted before the 06 tour start, and Vino in the 07 Tour.
> ...


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

KMan said:


> This really has to be the dumbest thread I've come across all week. If the poster really believes what he post........I really fee sorry for him/her - such a narrow mind.
> 
> I really do not understand how people think Astana should be banned? Granted if it was the same team as last year - sure, easy to understand, but it's not even close!
> If they were notified last year that they would be banned in 2008 and new members joined the team - sure I agree with the statement.
> ...


You may want to do some research before you start tossing rocks

The foundation of the team is the same as last year, which was the same as the year before then they showed up to the TDF with 5 Operation Puerto riders....it is only worse now with Johann's addition. Kahsekin is actively training with the Astana development team. Nikolai Proskurin, Kazakh cycling federation president, made sure that Vino only received a one year ban...even thought the rules says he should get two. Vino still influences the team and its choice of riders. Proskurin is who put the team together and continues to run it. He is also who accused the ASO of a conspiracy and human rights abuse when Kash and Vino tested positive. The people who where in charge of the $$$ last year are the same as this year. 

Since July of last year there has been plenty of talk that Astana would not be allowed in the tour, it is no surprise. They gambled that by signing lasts year winner and a bunch of other names they would be able to slide in....they lost that gamble.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Levi should say he's gonna respect the ASO*

and then focus on all the 1 week mini tours. It is his strongpoint. He can wrack up tons of wins, focusing on either Dauphine or TdSuisse after taking Paris Nice as well. 
He wins a bunch of races while other riders are waiting to peak, then rests during the tour and tries to repeak for the vuelta.
Seems like a better-odds at winning plan and he winds up looking like a 'good guy'.
plus it would help the other races get popular in America, America already knows the tour and the shoes he'd be trying to fill are waaaayyy too big


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

Americans (like me) want to support Levi and JB. Everyones cries let Levi ride. How many of those crying now voiced support for Unibet last year? Unibet who? Oh, they didn't have any Amercians. Now that sponser got screwed.


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## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

bigpinkt said:


> ....it is only worse now with Johann's addition.


These are the statements I am EXCACTLY talking about. Why is this? because so many riders from Postal and Discovery tested positive WHILE ON THE TEAM? Oh...you got me there!

Michael


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## ClimberMan (Feb 27, 2008)

The let Levi Ride campaign is really a Trek microsite and I understand their dilemma. If I had spent that much money and resources to support a TdF team, I would be very shocked to hear that my investment is not going as planned.

Alv


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

KMan said:


> These are the statements I am EXCACTLY talking about. Why is this? because so many riders from Postal and Discovery tested positive WHILE ON THE TEAM? Oh...you got me there!
> 
> Michael


You do not get because you are choosing to ignore the evidence. Armstrong failed seven (7) drugs tests EPO and corticosteroids in 1999 alone. He manufactured a backdated TUE to try to cover up the Corticosteroids postive after denining for days that he used them. If that had happened now he would be banned, that loophole has been closed. You may choose to ignore these but the ASO was embarrassed and publicly said that they felt they had been duped by a doper for 7 years. 

In 2000, team chiropractor Jeff Spencer was filmed dumping USPS medical waste into a Maritime Alp dumpster; insulin, cow blood Actovegin, 160 spent syringes, IV hoses, plasma bags. Frankie Andreau confessed to EPO injections in the 1999 TDF, made it clear it in an exchange with JV that he was always pressured by the team to dope. Other riders have also private and public claimed the team pressured them to dope. Benoit Joachim received a Deca Durabolin injection in 2000, rode the 2000 TDF anyway. Pavel Padrnos arrested in 2001 with insuin, EPO, steroids, hGH, corticoids. 

The ASO's distrust for Johann goes beyond just USPS/Disco, you need to remember that his greatest success as a rider came under Manolo Saiz, of Operation Puerto fame. Alex Zulle testified under oath that there was a team wide doping program in place while he was on ONCE and Johann was a willing participant. In fact he consumed so much dope that he was given a nickname by his teammates, "The Hog"


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## ghostzapper2007 (May 22, 2007)

fornaca68 said:


> You honestly think Levi and Conti didn't think long and hard about the risks of signing with Astana??? Consider the circumstances: both ride the TdFs of their lives, then a month later -- after most of the deep pocket ProTour teams with coin to shell out in the transfer market for big-name GC riders have extended offers and landed their big riders, leaving little budget left for 2008 -- Lance Armstrong pulls the plug on Discovery, abandoning a lead sponsor search that could bring in a $15MM annual budget. Now, if you're making about $1MM annually (I figure that's what Levi is making roughly, and no doubt the 24-year-old Conti was making less but certainly earned the right to be paid a lot more after that nice bike ride he had in July), and sponsors are leaving the sport left and right, and the big window in July to grab a nice fat contract is closed, aren't you going to be more interested in making sure you secure a contract that is at least as fat if not fatter than the one you currently have from a team that is awash in sponsor funding like Astana??? Or are you going to take a huge pay cut, ride for a non-Pro Tour team and hope you get invited to the Tour??? Remember that Slipstream didn't have the budget by August to sign Levi. I'm sure if Vaughters had a crystal ball in mid-July and told the future to Levi, Levi would be wearing argyle today and David Millar and Maggie Backstedt wouldn't have gotten their Slipstream contract offers in July.
> 
> Levi is smart and he decided -- after taking into consideration that Astana turned over new management and adopted the CSC anti-doping detection program -- that the risk of a TdF non-invite was relatively low. There's a reason everybody on this board was surprised 2 weeks ago when the news came down from ASO that Astana wouldn't be invited.
> 
> So I don't think anyone should be saying that "Levi and the rest should have used their brains before signing with Astana."


I don't know. Your post seems to make a pretty compelling point that neither Levi nor Contador have any reasonable right to whine about not being invited to the Tour. Your post seems to say that securing a salary contract at least as large as the one they had last year was probably their top priority. 

You said, "Now, if you're making about $1MM annually (I figure that's what Levi is making roughly, and no doubt the 24-year-old Conti was making less but certainly earned the right to be paid a lot more after that nice bike ride he had in July), and sponsors are leaving the sport left and right, and the big window in July to grab a nice fat contract is closed, aren't you going to be more interested in making sure you secure a contract that is at least as fat if not fatter than the one you currently have from a team that is awash in sponsor funding like Astana???"

If that was the case, they have acheived their top priority of getting their nice guranteed salary package from Astana while also knowing full well all of the dirty Astana laundry which comes with that salary package. The truth is they knew Astana had major drug problems last year and the year before. And if they had done their homework they would know that the ownership of the team is basically the same as last year. Management is different but to allow this team to ride in the 3 grand Tours in 08' is basically rewarding that ownership for permitting rampant cheating on their team in 07' after they had already rampantly cheated in 06'. Seems like the racing bodies are finally drawing some harsh lines in the sand regarding cheating and I applaud them for it. As for Levi and Contador, if riding in the TDF was their #1 priority and not salary, they chould have signed for a lot less money with a team they knew was clean and which they knew would be a lock to be in the TDF. Afterall, a good TDF performance would have gotten them loads more in endorsement money than any guranteed salary paid by Astana. They made their decisions, they made their beds, now they can lie in them. And I will miss seeing them in the TDF, that will suck, but they chose to join a team which everyone knew had a very very good chance of not being permitted in the Grand Tours this year. Stupid choice by him and Conti if you ask me.


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

Here's a question - how many offers do you think Levi and Contador actually had to consider at the end of last year? Seems like the big teams would love to have riders of their caliber on them, if only there weren't that Disco/USPS taint to them...

Something tells me they didn't have any other options.

Where did the rest of Disco go?

Levi - Astana
Conti - Astana
Brajkovic - Astana
Cruz - Rock Racing
Beppu - Skil/Shimano
Cummings - Barloworld
Danielson - Slipstream
Allan Davis - no team
Devolder - Quick Step
Gusev - Astana
Hincapie - High Road
Martinez - Euskaltel
McCartney - CSC
Noval - Astana
Popo - Lotto
Rubiera - Astana
White - Slipstream (management)

So a couple of them went to other protour teams, with the rest either going to Astana or lower division teams.


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## ghostzapper2007 (May 22, 2007)

Lumbergh said:


> Here's a question - how many offers do you think Levi and Contador actually had to consider at the end of last year? Seems like the big teams would love to have riders of their caliber on them, if only there weren't that Disco/USPS taint to them...
> 
> Something tells me they didn't have any other options.
> 
> ...


Well to be honest whether they had very limited options or not is still irrelevant. The fact is the option they chose was a team which it was widely known might well be banned from this years TDF, and now it has happened so to now whine about it is pretty silly.

If I'm unemployed and desperately seeking work and have no option but to join a company operating a suspected ponzi scheme, yes my options were limited, but I chose the company I chose. If 6 months down the road the scheme comes crumbling down, it's kind of hard for me at that point to whine about it since I knew the gig might not work out well going into it. Likewise, Levi and Conti knew what they were getting into joining Astana. Whether their options were limited really makes no difference, they rolled the dice as I'm sure Bruyneel and the owners did that by signing some very big names they'd be able to manipulate their way into the TDF past the ASO's desires and it didn't work. But to whine about it now seems pretty silly on their part and Treks part.


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## FTM (Feb 4, 2005)

Cruz - BMC


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

ghostzapper2007 said:


> Seems like the racing bodies are finally drawing some harsh lines in the sand regarding cheating and I applaud them for it.
> 
> Afterall, a good TDF performance would have gotten them loads more in endorsement money than any guranteed salary paid by Astana.


Ghostzapper, you're making well reasoned, rational arguments as to why Levi and Contador should not be shocked about Astana being excluded. I don't have any problem at all with "drawing ... hash lines". The problem I have is that the line is not clear. Even in excluding Astana, there is no clarity as to what it would take to rehabilitate them next year.

Your point about endorsements may well be right. In my mind it points out why Levi and Contador should fight to get in the TdF. To do otherwise would be irresponsible. It may seem like whining to some, but it's worth big bucks to top riders.

JSR


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

master2129 said:


> The ASO is STUPID!!!


Well not really. The ASO is in the position of power. Like last year they banned Unibet even after the pro tour team made many concessions, including not wearing the logo for races in France.
By now we should know that ASO and to a lesser extent RCS, hold all the aces in this game. All UCI can do is cry "bloody murder" and watch.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

JSR said:


> In my mind it points out why Levi and Contador should fight to get in the TdF.


How can they fight? They're under contract. Unless there is a clause in their contract with a guarantee to ride the TdF, Giro etc. there's nothing they can do. If Astana releases them, that's a whole different story.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> He can wrack up tons of wins, focusing on either Dauphine or TdSuisse after taking Paris Nice as well.


Dauphiné and Paris-Nice, aren't they run by the ASO? maybe tour of Austria, Germany and Vuelta. Then he could rack up the points for the UCI Pro-Tour champion. If Alberto doesn't beat him to it.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Now what would really make me LMAO is if the ASO decides that they would erase Lance's 7 victories from the record book. They already did it with Bjarne Riis in 1996.
Who knows maybe they can cite "new evidence" or something. 

But to be honest all those past transgressions were done with the ASO's blessings at the time.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

MG537 said:


> Dauphiné and Paris-Nice, aren't they run by the ASO? maybe tour of Austria, Germany and Vuelta. Then he could rack up the points for the UCI Pro-Tour champion. If Alberto doesn't beat him to it.



Paris-Nice, Criterium Internationale, Paris-Roubaix, Fleche Wallonne, Liege-Bastogne-Liege and Paris-Tours are all ASO events.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

blackhat said:


> Paris-Nice, Criterium Internationale, Paris-Roubaix, Fleche Wallonne, Liege-Bastogne-Liege and Paris-Tours are all ASO events.


Don't forget tour of Quatar


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

MG537 said:


> How can they fight? They're under contract. Unless there is a clause in their contract with a guarantee to ride the TdF, Giro etc. there's nothing they can do. If Astana releases them, that's a whole different story.


I agree, there's not much they can do, but thinking aloud...

There's letleviride.com, the point of this whole thread. It may be weak, but it raises the visibility of the issue. 

There's the ProTour vs ASO battle, in which the riders seem to be pawns. If the CPA could find a way to assert the riders' interests it could influence events. This is not likely, but has a non-zero chance of working.

Since it's the team that's banned, not the riders, there's the AIGCP to go to for help. Press reports make it seems right now that the AIGCP is rolling with the ASO (we'll find out in the next few days), so this would seem to be a dead end.

Finally, if the UCI and ASO can't come to terms, then the ProTour is functionally dead. The riders' contracts, although written between the team and the rider, are defined as ProTour contracts. It is feasible that the death of the ProTour could release the riders to seek other teams. Of course, that begs the question of who would/could sign them at this point. I suppose a bet on the endorsement money vs salary could open a few doors to Levi, Klodi and Contador. 

JSR


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

bigpinkt said:


> You do not get because you are choosing to ignore the evidence. Armstrong failed seven (7) drugs tests EPO and corticosteroids in 1999 alone. He manufactured a backdated TUE to try to cover up the Corticosteroids postive after denining for days that he used them. If that had happened now he would be banned, that loophole has been closed. You may choose to ignore these but the ASO was embarrassed and publicly said that they felt they had been duped by a doper for 7 years.
> 
> In 2000, team chiropractor Jeff Spencer was filmed dumping USPS medical waste into a Maritime Alp dumpster; insulin, cow blood Actovegin, 160 spent syringes, IV hoses, plasma bags. Frankie Andreau confessed to EPO injections in the 1999 TDF, made it clear it in an exchange with JV that he was always pressured by the team to dope. Other riders have also private and public claimed the team pressured them to dope. Benoit Joachim received a Deca Durabolin injection in 2000, rode the 2000 TDF anyway. Pavel Padrnos arrested in 2001 with insuin, EPO, steroids, hGH, corticoids.
> 
> The ASO's distrust for Johann goes beyond just USPS/Disco, you need to remember that his greatest success as a rider came under Manolo Saiz, of Operation Puerto fame. Alex Zulle testified under oath that there was a team wide doping program in place while he was on ONCE and Johann was a willing participant. In fact he consumed so much dope that he was given a nickname by his teammates, "The Hog"


Did all this info come from your close personal experiences and conversations directly with those people? Seems like a bit of Conspiracy Theory jitters if you ask me.
I'm not saying things probably did not happen (Hamilton, Heras, etc) but is there some elaborate scheme that fooled EVERYONE? I doubt it. How come they are/were not testing positive left and right while all these others people/teams are? I understand it is possible to cheat and get away with it, but the level of conspiracy you are talking about would be so hard to maintain, that I find it high improbable to believe.

Back to the main subject though. I feel for Levi. But they're getting screwed for past indescretions by the team name. It's almost like assuming that beacuse the Miami Dolphins sucked this season the must have always sucked. I remember when the Patriots sucked and now look at them........
I personally think that the Tour is over hyped anyways. I much prefer the classics.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

onrhodes said:


> Did all this info come from your close personal experiences and conversations directly with those people? Seems like a bit of Conspiracy Theory jitters if you ask me.
> I'm not saying things probably did not happen (Hamilton, Heras, etc) but is there some elaborate scheme that fooled EVERYONE? I doubt it. How come they are/were not testing positive left and right while all these others people/teams are? I understand it is possible to cheat and get away with it, but the level of conspiracy you are talking about would be so hard to maintain, that I find it high improbable to believe.


And yet there are now quite a few people that have admitted systematic doping without ever having tested positive.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

onrhodes said:


> Did all this info come from your close personal experiences and conversations directly with those people? Seems like a bit of Conspiracy Theory jitters if you ask me.
> I'm not saying things probably did not happen (Hamilton, Heras, etc) but is there some elaborate scheme that fooled EVERYONE? I doubt it. How come they are/were not testing positive left and right while all these others people/teams are?


? 
I do know many of the riders and support staff on the 99 and 2000 teams but everything I have posted is in the public domain, if you have followed the sport you will have read about it

The 1999 positives
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/DOPAGE_ARMSTRONG_2.html
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-armstrong-samples-details_x.htm

do a simple Google search and you will find all the rest is correct and well known.

Team Telekom ran a systematic doping program for years, involving all of its top riders. None ever tested positive. Why would it be surprising that USPS/DISCO did the same and had the same lack of positives?

Until recently few riders have tested positive, Basso, Ulrich, and all the rest of the Operation Puerto riders never tested positive....just like Lance.


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## ghostzapper2007 (May 22, 2007)

JSR said:


> Ghostzapper, you're making well reasoned, rational arguments as to why Levi and Contador should not be shocked about Astana being excluded. I don't have any problem at all with "drawing ... hash lines". The problem I have is that the line is not clear. Even in excluding Astana, there is no clarity as to what it would take to rehabilitate them next year.
> 
> Your point about endorsements may well be right. In my mind it points out why Levi and Contador should fight to get in the TdF. To do otherwise would be irresponsible. It may seem like whining to some, but it's worth big bucks to top riders.
> 
> JSR


I agree. The penalties and enforcement need to be more clear and uniform. But i can't find a lot of fault in the ASO's position based upon what has happened in the TDF in recent years and particularly last year. Last year was a disaster. You had one guy leading the overall GC for the bulk of the race only to be thrown out by his own team and then another guy who was a GC contender win one of the races biggest stages, an ITT no less, he gets huge applause and credits thrown at him by the mass media after that ITT win, only to then have himself thrown out for cheating during that stage win. The ASO is basically saying enough is enough. And I do think that 10 years down the road people will look back at what the ASO is doing and they'll realize it was the correct move. I definitely feel for Levi, Conti and the other guys who are being punished by this move. But the ASO as we know isn't doing it because of them, they are doing it because they are concerned with a much bigger issue than individual riders, the credibility of the TDF race and the sport in general. In the big scheme of things I think what they are doing is correct. If Astana is permitted to race the message they are basically sending to the big money financial backers is: go ahead and cheat, and if you get caught simply replace your team and management and we'll let you race again next year. I think the ASO's decision to punish these financial backers who knew this crap was goiung on is great for the TDf and the sport in the long haul. Although it may make this years TDF kinds suck not having Levi and in particularly Conti there. The Alpe Duez in particular has Conti's name written all over it. A shame for sure that he likely won't be there.


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## jerryon (May 28, 2006)

Bianchi67 said:


> Americans (like me) want to support Levi and JB. Everyones cries let Levi ride. How many of those crying now voiced support for Unibet last year? Unibet who? Oh, they didn't have any Amercians. Now that sponser got screwed.


Or why no one is screaming let levi ride the giro. It seems to be tour, tour, tour. No wonder Jan didn't like Marsha.


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## esbowen (Oct 6, 2007)

There is one huge point Astana supporters overlook - the sponsor is corrupt. 

http://www.thevirtualmusette.com/posts/2008/2/22/astanagate.html


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 6, 2005)

The 1999 positives
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/DOPAGE_ARMSTRONG_2.html
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-armstrong-samples-details_x.htm

It's laughable that some people continue to bring up this debunked trash. Go France!!


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

Tumbleweed said:


> The 1999 positives
> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/DOPAGE_ARMSTRONG_2.html
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-armstrong-samples-details_x.htm
> 
> It's laughable that some people continue to bring up this debunked trash. Go France!!


I agree. the Leequipe is a bunch of junk. As for the "google" search mentioned above.....There's never junk posted on the internet?  

The "systematic doping" mentioned by the Bigpinkt is also well before the EPO test and the homologous (sp?) blood tests were introduced. Those were not around until 2004. Look at the surge of riding testing positive since then. However since 2004 had Lance tested positive for either of those? I don't want to change this to a Lance forum. I do think you can write off much of the 1990's to being questionable but things have come quite far in the past 4 years.

To compare the Astana of 2008 to that of 2007 is just not possible. I think the move by ASO has the potential to scare away sponsors. Why is Liquigas, Cofidies, Rabobank, High Road all allowed to ride?
They're claiming it is the name of the sponsor that has tarnished the sport. Does that mean that Amgen could never sponsor a Tour team? They do make EPO so they will have a negative impact on the sport? How about Bristol-Meyers-Squibb? They saved Lance from cancer and that allowed him to win 7Tours?

What this honestly boils down to is a pissing contest between ASO/RCS/Unipublic and the UCI. Unitbet got screwed last year and now it is Astana's turn. Next year it will probably be some one else.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Tumbleweed said:


> The 1999 positives
> http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/DOPAGE_ARMSTRONG_2.html
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-armstrong-samples-details_x.htm
> 
> It's laughable that some people continue to bring up this debunked trash. Go France!!


It is laughable that people continue to ignore this valid proof of doping.....good thing that few do, only members of his fan club.

Can you explain how epo got in Lance's samples? Lance sure could not, and didn't even try....no lawsuit, DNA test, etc. If all you have to fall back on is the "Vast French Conspiracy" then your case is pretty weak.


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## Barry Muzzin (Sep 18, 2006)

*Good Blog*



esbowen said:


> There is one huge point Astana supporters overlook - the sponsor is corrupt.
> 
> http://www.thevirtualmusette.com/posts/2008/2/22/astanagate.html


Very good blog... particularly liked this link in the comments:

http://www.deraileduk.com/letlevicry/


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## Kris Flatlander (Sep 9, 2006)

Lumbergh said:


> Here's a question - how many offers do you think Levi and Contador actually had to consider at the end of last year? Seems like the big teams would love to have riders of their caliber on them, if only there weren't that Disco/USPS taint to them...
> 
> Something tells me they didn't have any other options.
> 
> ...


One thing you're overlooking is how late in the season the folding of the team occurred. It was at a point when a lot of the pre-contract talk had finished for the year and teams were filling up their rosters, Discovery let out all of its riders on the tail end of signings and it showed in who was taken up. Just think of adding a salary like that of Levi's or what Contador would be wanting after a Tour/Paris-Nice and adding that on top of an already "complete" team budget.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*Im' sure you're right..*



Bianchi67 said:


> I also agree he gets paid either way. But once he signed the contract, he forgets about money and only think about racing and winning.
> 
> Champions are in it to win, not to collect a paycheck.
> 
> Most riders have two or three prime years for grand tours. This year is one of Levi's two or three.


he probably doesn't want his six-seven figures.


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 6, 2005)

Can you explain how epo got in Lance's samples? Lance sure could not, and didn't even try....no lawsuit, DNA test, etc. If all you have to fall back on is the "Vast French Conspiracy" then your case is pretty weak.[/QUOTE]

The only true fact is the UCI cleared Armstrong of any wrongdoing after publication of the ASO owned L'Equipe article. There's nothing to explain. But I still enjoy promoting the all too easy "Vast French Conspiracy".


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Tumbleweed said:


> The only true fact is the UCI cleared Armstrong of any wrongdoing after publication of the ASO owned L'Equipe article. There's nothing to explain. But I still enjoy promoting the all too easy "Vast French Conspiracy".


Nope

they found that they could not sanction him, not that he was clean. He got off on a procedural technicality. He also was lucky as it came after he retired. 

Basso, Scarponi, etc. had far less evidence against them but still got a 2 year ban....but of course they did not "Donate" $200,000 to the UCI


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

Jesse D Smith said:


> They are the same team in ONLY that sense.


If you look at it from the ASO point of view, which is what the ASO is bound to do. How many people that watch the Tour know that Johan came in and changed the team around, made all these changes and so on? 

And how many people that watch the Tour remember the name Astana for being cheaters last year?

Most people watching the Tour don't follow cycling. They watch it simply as a matter of interest. How would it look to have the same team, in the understanding of the viewers, that ruined last year's Tour, on top this year? What would the vast majority of people watching the race think?

Cycling's full of it. I'm not watching. Probably.

Astana probably would have gotten in if they had changed the name.


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