# Amgen T of C overlaps with Giro?



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

So, the Tour of California overlaps with the Giro... What overlaps with the TdF? I guess T of C isn't a first tier tour. Wouldn't T of C be considered the big race for the USA? Is Tour Down Under bigger? 

Just wondering... I'm psyched for all of it! Maybe more fantasy racing?


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

When to ToC was held in February the organizers had a lot of weather trouble and difficulty scheduling high-country stages. The move to May was calculated to alleviate those pains, while still enticing top-tier riders for whom the Giro was not on their schedule.

The Tour Down Under is a ProTour race, the ToC is not. Whether the ToC is the biggest/best in the USA might get an argument from Coloradans. In any case, it gets good reviews from the riders, who seem to think it is well organized and the accommodations are good.

Nothing of note happens in July except the Tour.


----------



## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Caloradoan.


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

looigi said:


> Caloradoan.


Thanks.


----------



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

TOC wasn't in February, it was in April. 

Nothing overlaps the Tour de France, cause it's the freakin' Tour de France!!!

Don't eff with it.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Road - Calendar

4-12 Jul	Int. Österreich-Rundfahrt-Tour of Austria	AUT	Europe Tour	2.HC	
5-18 Jul	Tour of Qinghai Lake	CHN	Asia Tour	2.HC	
5 Jul	Paris-Chauny ( classique)	FRA	Europe Tour	1.2	
5 Jul	Trofeo San Rocco	ITA	Men Junior	1.1	
5 Jul	Minsk Cup	BLR	Europe Tour	1.2	
9-12 Jul	Tour de Feminin - O cenu Českého Švýcarska	CZE	Women Elite	2.2	
9-12 Jul	GP Internacional Torres Vedras - Trofeu Joaquim Agostinho	POR	Europe Tour	2.2	
10 Jul	Stockton Festival of Cycling	GBR	Criterium	CRT	
11-14 Jul	Ain'Ternational-Rhône Alpes-Valromey Tour	FRA	Men Junior	2.1	
11-12 Jul	GP Général Patton	LUX	Men Junior	2.Ncup	
11 Jul	Anderson Banducci Twilight Criterium	USA	Criterium	CRT	
11 Jul	Menen-Kemmel-Menen	BEL	Men Junior	1.1	
12 Jul	White Spot / Delta Road Race WE	CAN	Women Elite	1.2	
12 Jul	Giro del Medio Brenta	ITA	Europe Tour	1.2	
12 Jul	White Spot / Delta Road Race	CAN	America Tour	1.2	
14-19 Jul	Giro Ciclistico della Valle d'Aosta Mont Blanc	ITA	Europe Tour	2.2U	
15 Jul	Colne Grand Prix	GBR	Criterium	CRT	
16-19 Jul	Tour de Bretagne Féminin	FRA	Women Elite	2.2	
16-19 Jul	Volta a Portugal do Futuro / Liberty Seguros	POR	Europe Tour	2.2U	
17-19 Jul	Oberösterreich Juniorenrundfahrt	AUT	Men Junior	2.1	
17-23 Jul	Internationale Thüringen Rundfahrt der Frauen	GER	Women Elite	2.1	
17-19 Jul	BeNe Ladies Tour	NED	Women Elite	2.2	
18 Jul	Littleton Criterium	USA	Criterium	CRT	
19 Jul	Trofeo Matteotti	ITA	Europe Tour	1.1	
19 Jul	Dwars door de Vlaamse Ardennen	BEL	Europe Tour	1.2	
21-26 Jul	Tour de l'Abitibi Desjardins - Coupe des Nations Junior	CAN	Men Junior	2.Ncup	
22 Jul	Sheffield Hallam GP	GBR	Criterium	CRT	
22-25 Jul	Pan American Games - Toronto	CAN	Regional Games	JR	
22 Jul	Grand Prix Cerami	BEL	Europe Tour	1.1	
24 Jul	Beverley Grand Prix	GBR	Criterium	CRT	
24-26 Jul	Internationale Niedersachsen-Rundfahrt der Junioren	GER	Men Junior	2.1	
24-26 Jul	Podlasie Tour	POL	Europe Tour	2.2	
24 Jul	Central-European Tour Kosice-Miskolc	HUN	Europe Tour	1.2	
25 Jul	GP Industria & Artigianato	ITA	Europe Tour	1.1	
25 Jul	Prueba Villafranca-Ordiziako Klasika	ESP	Europe Tour	1.1	
25 Jul	Intelligencia Cup	USA	Criterium	CRT	
25-29 Jul	Tour de Wallonie	BEL	Europe Tour	2.HC	

Apart from those races, nothing overlaps with teh tour de france


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

rufus said:


> TOC wasn't in February, it was in April.


February 19–27, 2006
February 17–25, 2007
February 17–24, 2008
February 14–22, 2009
May 16–23, 2010
May 15–22, 2011
May 13–20, 2012
May 12–19, 2013
May 11–18, 2014


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

it's set against the Giro, it is thoroughly outclassed


----------



## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

I was completely oblivious until now that Stage 8 will run very close to my house and literally pass in front of my prior home on the way up to the Rose Bowl.


----------



## FujiSteve (Nov 12, 2014)

The TOC in May succeeds for all the following reasons:

1. It isn't the Giro. 
2. It's an opportunity for the number 2 and 3 riders in a team to achieve a result and ride for themselves without having to support that freakin' ******* of a team leader who's off in the Canary Islands training.
3. The sponsors get exposure in the hugely important US cycling market just as the weather is warming up and the Freds are thinking of what new kind of bike they want/need.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

FujiSteve said:


> The TOC in May succeeds for all the following reasons:
> 
> 1. It isn't the Giro.
> 2. It's an opportunity for the number 2 and 3 riders in a team to achieve a result and ride for themselves without having to support that freakin' ******* of a team leader who's off in the Canary Islands training.
> 3. The sponsors get exposure in the hugely important US cycling market just as the weather is warming up and the Freds are thinking of what new kind of bike they want/need.


Actually it doesn't succeed at all. Its been in trouble for the last few years. The crowd turnout is down esp when compared to Colorado. Its liked by the Euros because a lot of hem view it as a vacation and good training in nice weather.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> Actually it doesn't succeed at all. Its been in trouble for the last few years. The crowd turnout is down esp when compared to Colorado. Its liked by the Euros because a lot of hem view it as a vacation and good training in nice weather.


Last year's temperatures that were over 100F isn't "nice". No, it's not bombing down the Stelvio in a blizzard but it's not exactly hotel-room 77F either.


----------



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

JSR said:


> February 19–27, 2006
> February 17–25, 2007
> February 17–24, 2008
> February 14–22, 2009
> ...


Hmmm, I stand corrected. Even for California, Feb. seems early.

I can't wait to watch this year's series of still pictures flicking by on my TV screen.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

I have been watching ToC and Tour of Colorado every year. I was watching Tour of CA in person since 2007. Any stats to back up your observation about the crowds? Mt Baldy will be lined up with people for 10+ miles everywhere this year, just like when it was Gesink and Horner winning it, maybe 2012, 2013? The Colorado roads seem to be completely deserted until the final 100m of the ski lift resort where you get a few people. The CA roads seem to be lined up with spectators, whether it's a TT or crit in Thousand Oaks, or if it's a stage in Santa Rosa, Santa Barbara or Angeles Crest.

I like to look at relative quality of the field/race as in who wins the race. California had stage winners that include names like Sagan, Cancellara, Cavendish, Hushovd, Boonen, Gesink, Wiggins, Dennis, Hesjedal, Rogers, Voigt, Bettini (and many others) - as well as domestic riders like Horner, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, TeeJay, Farrar, Hincapie, etc.

Tour of Colorado aka USA PRO Challenges has mostly american stage winners, but also includes foreign rides like Gretsch (?), Voigt, Viviani, Oss, but more recently Frank, Sagan, Acevedo and Didier (I think I listed them all). They have guys like Froome or Evans riding in it but mostly for appearance money. (Does anyone remember anything Froome did last year?)

The GC for Colorado was ALWAYS won by an american (Levi, TJ or VdV).
The GC for California over the past 5 years was won by 3 foreigners (Rogers, Gesink, Wiggins).

I would say the move to May from February was a huge success for ToC - they should try to include a stage in Sierras but there is no people living there, still, some of those roads are just amazing. Tour of Colorado is mostly an afterthought - it's good for american talent but they need to move it up in the calendar if they want to become the top US race.


----------



## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

I think people are using different definitions of success.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

jspharmd said:


> I think people are using different definitions of success.


Yeah money which ToC is loosing hand over fist. And crowds which they are also losing based of observering both ToC and Utah and Colorado first hand, as well as working in the industry and hearing the behind the door conversations.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

The Giro is the best of the Grand Tours IMHO - Tour of Cali just a side-show.
Putting the ToC against the Giro is a killer - they need to rethink that if the ToC is going to survive.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

LostViking said:


> The Giro is the best of the Grand Tours IMHO - Tour of Cali just a side-show.
> Putting the ToC against the Giro is a killer - they need to rethink that if the ToC is going to survive.


To me, these are two different types of races with very different goals. The Giro is a grand tour, steeped in history, a key part of the European racing calendar that is designed to put some of the best GC contenders, sprinters, and stage hunters in head to head battle. They consistently create some of the most exciting stages in cycling and it is also my favorite grand tour by a significant margin. 

The TOC, on the other hand, is really trying to establish itself as one of the major build up races for those that are skipping the Giro to prepare for the TdF. So, they aren't really trying to compete with the Giro, they are trying to steal big name racers away from other one week races that can be used to build up form as we get closer to Le Tour. It's a continental race where you get some quality training miles in, provide the Americans on your roster a chance to shine, and see what your young guys have and not much more. That's fine by me because it can still be a lot of fun to watch.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Rashadabd said:


> To me, these are two different types of races with very different goals. The Giro is a grand tour, steeped in history, a key part of the European racing calendar that is designed to put some of the best GC contenders, sprinters, and stage hunters in head to head battle. They consistently create some of the most exciting stages in cycling and it is also my favorite grand tour by a significant margin.
> 
> The TOC, on the other hand, is really trying to establish itself as one of the major build up races for those that are skipping the Giro to prepare for the TdF. So, they aren't really trying to compete with the Giro, they are trying to steal big name racers away from other one week races that can be used to build up form as we get closer to Le Tour. It's a continental race where you get some quality training miles in, provide the Americans on your roster a chance to shine, and see what your young guys have and not much more. That's fine by me because it can still be a lot of fun to watch.


I think your sort missing the point he was trying to make. They may be different types of races but ToC position on the calendar and the riders that allows it to attract are slowly killing the race.


----------



## bruin11 (May 21, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> I think your sort missing the point he was trying to make. They may be different types of races but ToC position on the calendar and the riders that allows it to attract are slowly killing the race.


That makes no sense because the TOC still attracts a high quality field. Peter Sagan has raced here the last few years and holds the record for most stage wins. Definitely a rider that people want to see and will be racing again this year.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

bruin11 said:


> That makes no sense because the TOC still attracts a high quality field. Peter Sagan has raced here the last few years and holds the record for most stage wins. Definitely a rider that people want to see and will be racing again this year.


Believe what you want then


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

It must cost a fortune to send a team to Calif.


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

bruin11 said:


> That makes no sense because the TOC still attracts a high quality field. Peter Sagan has raced here the last few years and holds the record for most stage wins. Definitely a rider that people want to see and will be racing again this year.


Pretty much. They are targeting different riders. That's my point. The guys riding the Giro weren't ever going to ride the TOC. The guys riding the TOC weren't ever going to ride the Giro (they are preparing for the TdF and other races). Most Giro/Euro racing fans don't give much thought to the TOC (that's just reality) and a lot of American racing fans only follow the American continental races and the TdF. Accordingly, I really don't see a whole lot of conflict to be honest. We are the exception for American cyclists/ racing fans in that we follow big and small races all over the globe and not the norm in my experience.


----------



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Lately though, it seems the TOC gets maybe 10-15 top pros, like Sagan and Cavendish, the rest of the Euro-pros a bunch of mid-level pack fodder, and then a bunch of the domestic teams. 

It might as well be the Corestates, or whatever they're calling the USPRO now.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bruin11 said:


> That makes no sense because the TOC still attracts a high quality field. Peter Sagan has raced here the last few years and holds the record for most stage wins. Definitely a rider that people want to see and will be racing again this year.


sagan? that's cute. 
here's the 2009 lineup 2009 Amgen Tour of California Video, Route, Preview, Photos, Results, Teams

quite a few teams with basically half a tour de france lineup available. (astana, saxobank, garmin liquigas cervelo for example). specifically saxo: 2*schleck, Voigt, O'Grady and Cancellara. this year? sagan and.... well Breschel I guess. 
in pre-2010 the ToC could be combined with a longish training camp in conditions that were not great but not too far off what it would be coming back to Europe. Much more desirable than rolling around Oman and then showing up for the early spring races getting used to 20+ degree (C) difference. 
Now ToC is squeezed by races all along, little time for any serious training camp and just a long-ass flight and jet lag with little benefit.


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I guess there is room for more then one bike race at a time in the world. The ATC is pretty exciting so far with Cavendish winning the first 2 stages..


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

BikeLayne said:


> I guess there is room for more then one bike race at a time in the world. The ATC is pretty exciting so far with Cavendish winning the first 2 stages..


yes I thought for a minute the twisty roads and small hills would break things up into the finish.


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

To bad about Ben Jacques Maynes crashing out of the ATC. He was the team Captain of the ATC and riding his 10th year in the race. He was caught up in a crash near the finish and broke his nose, some teeth, dislocated his shoulder and is out of the race. He was going to retire at the end of the year. Maynes lives in Corralitos, Ca and rides a lot in Santa Cruz and San Benito counties where he owns about 25pages of KOM's on Strava. I have seen him out on the road before thanks to the Strava Fly buy but do not know the young cyclist. Best of luck on the healing process.


----------



## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

As someone who only follows pro cycling casually, it appears both of these are missing some of the more elite riders especially the Giro. Where are Nibili, Quintana, Valverde, Purito, Froome, Kwiotkowski, Voekler and some other Italian pros?

These guys just ride TDF? Is the Giro too close to TDF for most pros?

Anyway for me watching how Sagan is riding and seeing some of these smaller teams riding for exposure is entertaining and way better than anything else on TV.

Hearing commentary from legendary Jens along with Phil and Paul makes the TOC worth watching for me.

As far as venue itself, the Tour of Utah has some of the coolest routes of all the U.S. Races. Watching Cadel last year, bombing some of those descents was friggin awesome!


----------



## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

If the Tour of California is suffering from anything, it might be backlash from last year's video quality on broadcasts. That's fixed so far this year, but people might still be avoiding it. Plus the replays getting pre-empted by hockey playoffs isn't great, but you can watch on the Internet.

As for live crowds, first hand experience here, they have been big at least in the Bay Area. If they want to keep them big, they just need to keep riding up or over Mount Diablo. Crowds have been awesome and it's been a lot of fun.


----------



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Most guys who want to win the TDF won't ride the Giro, as it's just too big an effort to recover from, and still be in top form for July. The days of doing the Giro/Tour double are long gone, although Contador is going to give it a shot this year. Doubt if he's successful.


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Probably the Amgen tour is fine. Good racing action going on. As far as the corporate thing goes I have no idea if the tour or the teams are making money. 

I was going to go yesterday but when I got there I was directed to a parking area and a shuttle. When I got to the shuttle area after having a cop bark at me the parking lady said I had to pay $15.00 to park and the shuttle was probably full so I would be on my own. I declined the 4 mile uphill walk and just figured going out to lunch with my wife sounded like more fun so we did that. It was ok as I had a strong feeling of just getting out of there anyway as soon as that cop started barking.


----------



## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> it's set against the Giro, it is thoroughly outclassed


How is it outclassed by Italian race that is named after a Greek food?


----------

