# 10 vs. 11 Speed Cassette: What Do You Prefer? Does It Matter?



## ex_machina (Oct 20, 2015)

Part of the decision making process in getting a new bike is deciding between component groups. I have been impressed with both tiagra and ultegra. The former is 10 speed, the latter 11 speed.

My test rides have been pretty short, so I have been focusing more on ride quality and the general smoothness of componentry function. So far, I have not noticed any issue with gear spacing on the 10 speed cassettes. 

My impression is that a 10 speed is much, much more than sufficient. An 11 speed cassette might be a nice luxury if you need an extra low gear, but I think a 28 or 30 low gear should be more than sufficient since I will be riding mostly flats, especially in the beginning.

I have read this take on the difference, but unlike the blog writer, I don't see much of an advantage to 11 speed.

Our Take: 10-Speed vs. 11-Speed | Performance Bicycle Blog

What are your thoughts and experiences with 10 and 11 speed?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

11 in one more than 10. It's really not much deeper than that.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

You'll be hard pressed to notice a performance difference from one cog. 
All things being equal though, choose the 11sp. It's the latest standard and will be more future proof. Especially if you're considering Di2. It's virtually impossible to find new 10sp Di2 components.
I wouldn't necessarily pass up 10sp mechanical if it's a good deal. Components will be available for quite a while.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Definitely, if starting anew, then go 11.

I have way more 10-speed stuff accumulated, so I'm still occasionally buying that, but not if I was starting now.

With 11 you have more choice - add to the range, or add within the range. There is no one answer. It depends on terrain and level of fitness.

Let's try it another way. If you were on 10 with a low of 26 and wanted to switch to a cassette with a low of 29, then you would lose a useful and much more used gear in the middle. With an 11 you can have both.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

As most of the people say above, buy the most recent technology. It'll delay the inevitable obsolescence a couple more years.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

ex_machina said:


> What are your thoughts and experiences with 10 and 11 speed?


Road bikes with more than a one tooth jump through the 19 cog are unacceptable.

8 cogs 13-21 are enough to avoid that with 50-39/40-30 rings.

You can get the same range with 9 cogs 13-23 and 50-34, although there's a 10X increase in front shifting with five cog compensating moves in back which is a big hassle.

10 cogs 13-25/26 get you that range with a 50-39 double (or 53-39 for a larger big gear than the 52x13 Eddy Merckx used to dominate the pro peloton) and reasonable front shifting.

If you need something lower than 39x25/26 or higher than 53x13 and don't want a triple 11 cogs are for you, but only because your favorite lever manufacturer won't sell you 12 or more .

11-25, 12-28, and bigger 11 cog cassettes still lack the 18 cog with neither 17 nor 19 right for some situations









On second thought, lower gears let you ride more interesting terrain at an endurance pace without compromising the training effect on your aerobic threshold.

Buy as many gears as you can.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Road bikes with more than a one tooth gap through the 19 cog are unacceptable.
> 
> 8 cogs 13-21 are enough to avoid that with 50-40-30 rings.
> 
> ...


I want a 15 cog set up. I need my 32 in back, but need that 11 on them long DH sections. 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25-27-29-32


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I prefer 10 speed because an 11 speed cassette wouldn't work on my wheels. (and there is no way I'm going to replace all my rear wheels)
On the other hand, a 12-25 wouldn't be bad (if I ever replace all my components and rear wheels) You get the 16, the 18, and a 25. I have no use for an 11 because I can spin pretty damn fast. I have no use for a 28, because I ain't no sissy boy.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

ex_machina said:


> What are your thoughts and experiences with 10 and 11 speed?


My thoughts are... everything will be 11s in a few more years. No point in buying 10s now when I'll have to eventually upgrade. 

Actually, that's what my thoughts were last year when I started the 11s shuffle which involved a couple of new wheels sets... Over and done with now, though.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

tlg said:


> You'll be hard pressed to notice a performance difference from one cog.
> All things being equal though, choose the 11sp. It's the latest standard and will be more future proof. Especially if you're considering Di2. It's virtually impossible to find new 10sp Di2 components.
> I wouldn't necessarily pass up 10sp mechanical if it's a good deal. Components will be available for quite a while.


speaking of Di2 .. when the heck are they going to offer it in 105 and Tiagra?

as for 10 vs 11: I mean 7 speed was great for me back in the day, even 5 speed freewheels for that matter. I still use 9sp on 2 bikes, including my 2 yr old Lynskey cooper, and 2 with 10 speed. Only difference I see is that having a ton of cogs enable 1x systems with better usability than with 9sp or 7 sp.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

wait for 12


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

*5800/6800 11 speed* is nice for it's option to choose the *11-32 cassette* with the accompanying *medium cage derailleur*, if so desired.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

There are 4 reasons to go 11 in my book, all of which have been mentioned. 

1. 10 speed stuff is going to be harder and harder to get parts for over time because it's not the current technology. 

2. Tighter spacing on cassettes AND wider range from top to bottom of cassette are possible in the same cassette with 11 vs 10. This can make a pretty big difference when climbing. 

3. The 11/32 available with GS cage is very nice in the steep stuff where the wide range is more important than tight spacing (although a 12 or 13 /32 might make more sense, for some reason they aren't made)

4. The 11 speed stuff just shifts better than the comparable line of 10 speed components, it's actually quite noticeable. This point is valid only starting at the 105 group and up for now though since Tiagra isn't offered in 11 speed.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

I don't even understand what kind of a question this is supposed to be. Do you see any _disadvantages_ of 11-speed? If not, then where is the question here?


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

A 10s hub with the right dimensions (which Tiagra is not) will build a stronger wheel than any other 11s hub. Other than that, 11s is a better choice just from the point of view that if one starts now might as well start with the current trends.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

I think you should choose the group that you like the feel of, and that fits your budget. I also think the obsolescence argument is a little overstated. Cassettes are the main wear item that you can expect to have to replace, and 10-speed cassettes are going to continue to be available for a long time, given the number of bikes that are out there. In fact, it's not hard to find 9-speed cassettes even now.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> speaking of Di2 .. when the heck are they going to offer it in 105 and Tiagra?


There's a thread here within the last couple days where someone said they talked to a Shimano rep and there's no plans at all for a Di2 group lower than Ultegra.

Here- http://forums.roadbikereview.com/components-wrenching/dont-hold-your-breath-105-di2-326042.html


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

JCavilia said:


> I think you should choose the group that you like the feel of, and that fits your budget. I also think the obsolescence argument is a little overstated..


I agree. I think the OP asked the wrong question. Tiagra vs Ultegra is a question about budget, durability, weight function ect. not about 11 vs 10. Because I think we can all agree that 1 extra/less gear alone doesn't mean squat.

If the guy has a tiagra budget and doesn't care about grams current trends shouldn't mean anything. And if he wants to spend more and want to trim some weight the decision is made independent of the 11 vs 10 question.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I agree. I think the OP asked the wrong question. Tiagra vs Ultegra is a question about budget, durability, weight function ect. not about 11 vs 10. Because I think we can all agree that 1 extra/less gear alone doesn't mean squat.
> 
> If the guy has a tiagra budget and doesn't care about grams current trends shouldn't mean anything. And if he wants to spend more and want to trim some weight the decision is made independent of the 11 vs 10 question.


Then why not 105 5800? Very little price difference to Tiagara. I'm with Pirx on this one.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bikerjulio said:


> Then why not 105 5800? Very little price difference to Tiagara. I'm with Pirx on this one.


Sure. Objectively with all things considered 105 is probably the way to go for the vast majority of cyclists. Not that my own objective opinion stopped me from getting DA for myself but.........


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## LuckyB (Sep 9, 2012)

Never mind


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

Seeing as I have both setups, I do like the fact that on the same cassette (11-28) in 11spd that the gearing spread is more even with the addition of the 1 extra cog. Is it a night and day game changer for me, nope.

Now with that on my mechanical bikes I will stay with Ultegra 10spd as long as I can as it works fine for me. On my Ultegra Di2 bike I will say 10spd until the RD or FD dies, then I will order the 11spd Di2 Ultegra RD/FD, 11spd cassette and then update the firmware in the shifters and swap over to 11spd then.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I prefer the 11... cause they go to.... 11.
I will never have 11 cause all my wheels are 10's. And I have a lot of them.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

The new Tiagra 4700 group which has just hit the market is a very nice affordable 10 speed group. It will be around until Shimano says different. It's the only current 10 speed group in the Shimano line. The 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace are all 11 speed these days. So just determine your budget and then shop accordingly. If you go with Tiagra you are pretty much locked in with that group going forward. 

I just built a set of wheels for my son using Ultegra 11 speed hubs. I was worried about even more dishing of the rear wheel (compared to 10 speed) but it's been fine so far after about 1000 miles. I decided on the 11 speed hubs with 10 speed spacer because next year he will probably buy a new bike and these wheels will still be useful for him. I used Wheelsmith spoke thread prep which really helps keeping a wheel true. I must admit I do not like the grey color of the new Ultegra hubs.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Buy Cheap. Buy Again.

It's a cliche for a good reason.

You can save some money now by buying the 10 speed Tiagra group, but odds are you'll buy a new 11 speed group sooner rather than later. In the end, it will have cost you more to buy the Tiagra and the replacement 11 speed group, than it would have cost to buy the 11 speed group at the outset.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ex_machina said:


> I have read this take on the difference, but unlike the blog writer, I don't see much of an advantage to 11 speed.
> 
> Our Take: 10-Speed vs. 11-Speed | Performance Bicycle Blog


Bear in mind that blog was written two years ago. I'd imagine the author might have some different opinions now opposed to then.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ex_machina said:


> Part of the decision making process in getting a new bike is deciding between component groups. I have been impressed with both tiagra and ultegra. The former is 10 speed, the latter 11 speed.
> 
> My test rides have been pretty short, so I have been focusing more on ride quality and the general smoothness of componentry function. So far, I have not noticed any issue with gear spacing on the 10 speed cassettes.
> 
> ...




I will dissent with most of the replies here with this response. IMO, if you want that 32T low gear for hill climbing, by all means, go with the 11-speed. Otherwise, the 10-speed will serve you just fine. I think ultra close gear spacing is overrated, unless you will be doing competitive racing. I rode 8 and 9 speed cassettes for years. Granted the 9 speed was a welcome change. I can't really say I felt the same when I went from a 9 to a 10. I will eventually upgrade to the 11-speed, but only because I want the greater range 11-32T vs. 12-30T.

Another argument I think is futile is obsolescence. 10-speed components will be around for a long, long time. Don't believe me? Just do a Google or Amazon search on "5 speed cassette" and see all the ones for sale - new that is! When was the last time there was a new bike with a 5-speed cassette?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

tvad said:


> Buy Cheap. Buy Again.
> 
> It's a cliche for a good reason.
> 
> You can save some money now by buying the 10 speed Tiagra group, but odds are you'll buy a new 11 speed group sooner rather than later. In the end, it will have cost you more to buy the Tiagra and the replacement 11 speed group, than it would have cost to buy the 11 speed group at the outset.


Agreed. And just to put this in perspective, the current difference in retail price between Tiagra and 105 -11 at Chain reaction is about $40. Meaning at the manufacturer level it's pretty well negligible.

So, I suggest we take the "saving money" argument out of the discussion.


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## apejiuk (Aug 19, 2015)

Oh I wish I had the money or patience to go for 11! It's new and no more expensive than 10-speed group. Also if you decide to sell your 11-speed bike it will surely be easier than that of a 10-speed and for more money


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

tvad said:


> Buy Cheap. Buy Again.
> 
> It's a cliche for a good reason.
> 
> You can save some money now by buying the 10 speed Tiagra group, but odds are you'll buy a new 11 speed group sooner rather than later. In the end, it will have cost you more to buy the Tiagra and the replacement 11 speed group, than it would have cost to buy the 11 speed group at the outset.


Unless you resist the trendy gotta-have-the-latest impulse and just stick with the 10-speed, which you could conceivably do for a long time. "Odds are" is not a guarantee. I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with becoming dissatisfied with a perfectly functional machine because a slightly better one is available, but not everyone thinks that way.

There's always a reason for a cliche, but it's not always because they're universally true. Sometimes (often?) they're exaggerations or oversimplifications or rationalizations. People love to say, "you get what you pay for." But there is such a thing as a bargain (where you get more) or overpricing (where you get less).


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

JCavilia said:


> *Unless you resist the trendy gotta-have-the-latest impulse* and just stick with the 10-speed, which you could conceivably do for a long time.


In October 2015, 11 speed gearing is "trendy gotta-have-the-latest"? That's a bizarre perspective, and factually incorrect. 11 speed gearing is the standard. Not a trend.

Reiterating "bikerjulio's" excellent point above: $40 savings for outdated 10 speed Tiagra.

Shimano 105 5800 11 speed - $399.99
Shimano Tiagra 4700 10 speed - $349.99


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tvad said:


> In October 2015, 11 speed gearing is "trendy gotta-have-the-latest"? That's a bizarre perspective, and factually incorrect. 11 speed gearing is the standard. Not a trend.
> 
> Reiterating "bikerjulio's" excellent point above: $40 savings for outdated 10 speed Tiagra.
> 
> ...




In the perspective of $50 with all other things being equal, the 5800 is a no-brainer. Now would I suggest that someone who rides less than 1000 miles per year and is on a tight budget pay $300-400 more for the 5800 bike (a typical markup)? Probably not.

And I definitely would not call 10-speeds outdated. If you look around, you will notice there are brand new 2016 entry level road bikes that still use 8-speeds. And I'm talking about entry level road bikes of respectable brands like Cannondale and Trek, not Wal-Mart bikes.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lombard said:


> However, I would not call 10-speeds outdated. If you look around, you will notice there are brand new 2016 lower end road bikes that still use 8-speeds.


There are always exceptions, regardless how small. Some folks make it a religious-like quest to point them out.

11 speed gearing is the present standard for road cycling. Period. 

There is no practical value in choosing a new 10 speed groupset over a new 11 speed groupset, including the negligible price difference.


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## ex_machina (Oct 20, 2015)

Actually, Trek is still selling new 7 speed bikes as of 2015/2016. 

11 X 2 may be the standard for now, but who knows what new standard will be created in the next few years. 12 X 2? 12 X 1?


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## ex_machina (Oct 20, 2015)

tvad said:


> There are always exceptions, regardless how small. Some folks make it a religious-like quest to point them out.
> 
> 11 speed gearing is the present standard for road cycling. Period.
> 
> There is no practical value in choosing a new 10 speed groupset over a new 11 speed groupset, including the negligible price difference.


Budget is a major consideration. I would like to stay as close to $1,000 for my new road bike, but I might find a way to stretch my budget for 11 speed. That would require a few more months of savings, however.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

ex_machina said:


> Budget is a major consideration. I would like to stay as close to $1,000 for my new road bike, but I might find a way to stretch my budget for 11 speed. That would require a few more months of savings, however.


No experience with Performance, but I do have an older Fuji Roubaix and it's a nice bike with a very nice all carbon fork. 3 105 bikes here under $1,000

Performance Bike - Racing Road Bikes - Category


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

Quote Originally Posted by tvad 
There is no practical value in choosing a new 10 speed groupset over a new 11 speed groupset, including the negligible price difference.



ex_machina said:


> Budget is a major consideration. I would like to stay as close to $1,000 for my new road bike, but I might find a way to stretch my budget for 11 speed. That would require a few more months of savings, however.


I think this is where the confusion is. I agree with tvad, if I were buying a component group I would pay the small difference ($40) for 11 speed (even though I have no use for the 11 tooth cog).
But the OP's dilemma is he is looking at purchasing a complete bike on a stringent budget. Unfortunately, you can't buy an 11 speed bike for $40 more than a 10 speed bike (in the same brand of bike). It's more like $200 - $300 because of nicer components on the bike. This is one reason people still buy 10 speed and 9 speed bikes. There is no one answer that fits all.

OP, if it were me and price was a major consideration, I would rather purchase a 10 speed bike now than have to wait a few months in order to save the money for an 11 speed bike.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

ex_machina said:


> Budget is a major consideration. I would like to stay as close to $1,000 for my new road bike, but I might find a way to stretch my budget for 11 speed. That would require a few more months of savings, however.


Maybe approach your dilemma from the angle of buying the bike that fits you best. If I understand you correctly you are just starting; it will be quite a while before you reach the point of exceeding the capabilities of Tiagra. So if budget is an issue and the Tiagra equipped bike fits best, it ain't worth being without a bike "a few more months" just to get the 11 speed. There are a lot of other accessories to get that would make your experience more enjoyable with the money you saved.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I just pointed OP to several 105 bikes under his budget of $1000. At Performance the difference between their cheapest 105 bike and a Tiagra bike is $50.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

bikerjulio said:


> I just pointed OP to several 105 bikes under his budget of $1000. At Performance the difference between their cheapest 105 bike and a Tiagra bike is $50.


Yes you did. But many people do not want to buy a bike on-line at Performance (unless they have a local store) or Chain Reaction for all the obvious reasons debated in earlier forums. At the LBS the buyer can be properly fitted, test ride the bike, get local warranty and service. Unfortunately at the LBS, the price difference between tiagra and 105 is a lot more than $50.

If Shimano had better 11-speed cassette offerings I could see the benefits of going 11 speed, but they don't. They all come with the 11 tooth cog (except 12-25 DA). The 11 tooth is all but a worthless cog for most people. Too bad. If they had offerings starting with a 12 tooth or a 13 tooth I would consider upgrading all my bikes.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I just got back from the Saturday shop ride and there was not an 11 speed bike out there. Most of the bikes were cyclocross bikes with various gearing configurations. I ride a 105/10 speed steel bike that I had made for me 3 years ago and the shop owner is riding a 10 speed Look that sat in the shop for 2 years and he finally gave up trying to sell it and decided to just ride it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ngl said:


> If Shimano had better 11-speed cassette offerings I could see the benefits of going 11 speed, but they don't. *They all come with the 11 tooth cog (except 12-25 DA)*. The 11 tooth is all but a worthless cog for most people.


The value of an 11 tooth cog depends on ones chainring combination and terrain. For someone using a 12 tooth cog on a 53/39, an 11 tooth cog on a 52/36 or 50/34 might be quite useful. I use an 11-28 11 speed cassette with a 52/36 chainring combo and the range is really great for the type of terrain I ride.



BikeLayne said:


> ...the shop owner is riding a 10 speed Look that sat in the shop for 2 years and he finally gave up trying to sell it and decided to just ride it.


A good lesson in re-sale value of a new 10 speed road bike. Not much demand.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

tvad said:


> A good lesson in re-sale value of a new 10 speed road bike. Not much demand.


This may be a good alternative for the OP... purchase one of these 10-speed bikes at a great discount.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ngl said:


> This may be a good alternative for the OP... purchase one of these 10-speed bikes at a great discount.


Great discount now...but what if he decides to upgrade to 11 speed later? The cost to do so will be new shifters, new front and rear derailleurs, new cassette, new chain, new cables, and if the present bike has a 10 speed (only) compatible rear wheel, then the cost to either upgrade the freewheel to 11s (if that's possible), or buy an entire new 11s compatible rear wheel. 

I don't see any cost savings in this scenario. Might as well spend the extra money for an 11 speed bike now.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

"A good lesson in re-sale value of a new 10 speed road bike. Not much demand."


It was a new bike and before the 11 speed system was introduced. He was taking a risk on it because there is not much demand for an expensive carbon road bike around here. It's more of a cyclocross area. These days he will have a Specialized road bike of any kind in a day if somebody wants one but does not keep them in the shop preferring to stock stuff that sells...


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I think the longer you bike (or maybe it's the older and weaker you get...), the more you want single tooth jumps up to the 19 cog. I ride compact (50/34 or even 48/34) with either a 13-26 10 speed or a 12-25 11 speed cassette 99% of the time (the travel road bike has a bail out cog), and it's fantastic. Could be the gears, could be that it's Campy, or it could just all be in my head!

FYI BBB makes a 13-25 11 speed cassette that has a 9 cog straight block 13-21, too bad it's Shimano only


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## Mandeville (Oct 18, 2014)

It's always nice and at times a blessing to have that extra gear regardless of what gear the cog is. One example is it can be especially nice in certain situations associated with climbing if it offers you an easier gear for encounters of different scenarios with some really steep grades. (I leave it to individual riders to determine what is steep in their mind or experience.)

I have a 50/34 compact 11 speed, 11-32. Despite doing a lot of climbing it is rare that I use the 32 and then it is only in very limited special circumstances--very much the exception. But when I use it I need it and appreciate it!


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I thought 11 speed is a gimick and for what its worth I still ride a 9 speed equipped bike, but I have gotten used to the closer ratios the 11 speed provides, plus the new Shimanos work very well, something I could not say for the previous generation Ultegra(6700).


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

BikeLayne said:


> "A good lesson in re-sale value of a new 10 speed road bike. Not much demand."
> 
> 
> It was a new bike and before the 11 speed system was introduced.


I understand that. My point was if he could not sell a new 10 speed road bike in two years, then one could expect similar problems selling a used 10 speed road bike.

Thanks for the clarification about his market.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

tvad said:


> In October 2015, 11 speed gearing is "trendy gotta-have-the-latest"? That's a bizarre perspective, and factually incorrect. 11 speed gearing is the standard. Not a trend.


"Trendy" may have been a poorly chosen word. I was mainly reacting to the assumption that a rider who buys 10-speed today will inevitably replace it with 11 in a short time. Again I say, not everyone thinks that way. There are millions of people riding bikes with 10 (or 9) cogs very happily, and some of them will keep riding them for a decade or more. Saying 11 is "the standard" does not mean that other setups are obsolete, or that everyone must have the 11.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

JCavilia said:


> Saying 11 is "the standard" does not mean that other setups are obsolete, or that everyone must have the 11.


I agree.

My point is specifically targeted at someone who might want to upgrade to 11 speed. In my opinion, this applies more often to new riders and first time buyers of road bikes than it does to long time owners of 10 speed bikes, and to those who have been riding 7,8, and 9 speed bikes before that.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

DrSmile said:


> I think the longer you bike (or maybe it's the older and weaker you get...), the more you want single tooth jumps up to the 19 cog. I ride compact (50/34 or even 48/34) with either a 13-26 10 speed or a 12-25 11 speed cassette 99% of the time (the travel road bike has a bail out cog), and it's fantastic. Could be the gears, could be that it's Campy, or it could just all be in my head!
> 
> FYI BBB makes a 13-25 11 speed cassette that has a 9 cog straight block 13-21, too bad it's Shimano only


Fair point, but OTOH since I've advanced into my 60s I ride FG more and more (more than half my miles now). I still ride the road bike on longer and hillier rides, but riding fixed so much has given me an increased flexibility over a wide cadence range. I still shift a lot on the road bike, but I don't seem to need so much fine tuning.

My (Campy-equipped) road bike has a 9-speed 13-26, which is straight from 13 to 17. The 2-tooth jumps above that don't bother me.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

it's no longer just about 10 vs 11 cogs. Take Shimano for instance, their best group sets are all 11 speed now, so buying a new 10 speed group set means buying a budget item or a discontinued model.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

tvad said:


> I agree.
> 
> My point is specifically targeted at someone who might want to upgrade to 11 speed. In my opinion, this applies more often to new riders and first time buyers of road bikes than it does to long time owners of 10 speed bikes, and to those who have been riding 7,8, and 9 speed bikes before that.


Then I think we agree.


> those who have been riding 7,8, and 9 speed bikes before that.


Not to mention those who started riding when a "10-speed" had 2 chainrings and a 5-speed freewheel. ;-)


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I was not advocating Performance. It is what is known as an example. Which is easier to demonstrate using an online vendor with a wide range of bikes.

I was at a LBS in Toronto a couple of years ago looking at a carbon 105 bike on sale for $1,100 CDN. About $900 US. I believe that with a little work the OP could find a decent 105 bike within his $1,000 budget.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

JCavilia said:


> Not to mention those who started riding when a "10-speed" had 2 chainrings and a 5-speed freewheel. ;-)


Like my Schwinn Continental!


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

tvad said:


> Great discount now...but what if he decides to upgrade to 11 speed later? The cost to do so will be new shifters, new front and rear derailleurs, new cassette, new chain, new cables, and if the present bike has a 10 speed (only) compatible rear wheel, then the cost to either upgrade the freewheel to 11s (if that's possible), or buy an entire new 11s compatible rear wheel.
> 
> I don't see any cost savings in this scenario. Might as well spend the extra money for an 11 speed bike now.


Three points:
1. But the OP does not have the money now. This is his dilemma. 
2. There is a savings. There is $200-$300 savings at the LBS on new 10-speed bikes over 11-speed bikes, more savings if he can buy non-current year, and more savings again if he can buy one of the used 10-speed that are heavily discounted because no one wants 10-speed anymore (if you agree with that nonsense statement). 
3. It's not necessary to upgrade a $1000 10-speed bike to 11-speed in the future. He may just want to purchase a new bike.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ngl said:


> Three points:
> 2. There is a savings. There is $200-$300 savings at the LBS on new 10-speed bikes over 11-speed bikes, more savings if he can buy non-current year, and more savings again if he can buy one of the used 10-speed that are heavily discounted because *no one wants 10-speed anymore (if you agree with that nonsense statement). *


No one in this thread has stated "no one wants a 10-speed bike anymore".

I _have_ stated there is less demand for new 10 speed bikes than for new 11 speed bikes. Look to all the discounted 10 speed bikes for proof.

To compare apples-to-apples, one must know what 10 speed bike you refer to at $200-$300 less than the comparable 11 speed model. Then, one has to do some research to see what that bike is selling for online, and how much premium is being paid for buying at the LBS. Otherwise, numbers are being tossed around with nothing to tie them to. 

It has already been demonstrated earlier in this thread that a new 11 speed bike can be readily purchased from a reputable nationwide retailer for $50 more than a new 10 speed bike. Links were provided for those models.

I would argue that if $50 is too much extra money to spend, then perhaps a new bike ought to be at the bottom of the priority list.

Nashbar 105 11s Road Bike - $899.99


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Have you thought about buying second hand? At your budget you will get a much nicer bike than what you will buying new.

on the 10 v 11 debate - i have 10 speed Ultegra (11-25) on one bike and 11 speed DA (11-28) on my other so have the exact same cassette ratios with the bonus 28t bail out gear on the good bike. I use every single gear ratio on my riding terrain (mainly hills) so the extra option is valuable to me. The other factor is that the 11 speed is MUCH nicer to ride - shifting, brakes, everything has a lighter action and works better.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

tvad said:


> Like my Schwinn Continental!


If my 1972 Peugeot U-08 hadn't been stolen 18 years ago, I'd probably still be riding it (at least occasionally).


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## LuckyB (Sep 9, 2012)

JCavilia said:


> Then I think we agree.
> 
> Not to mention those who started riding when a "10-speed" had 2 chainrings and a 5-speed freewheel. ;-)


That's right, I just finished upgrading an old "10 speed" yesterday from a 5 speed to a 7 speed. I needed a new rear derailleur so I freshened the old boy up a bit. I've been riding it for over 30 years that away and it was just fine. Only difference that I can see is I can spin a higher cadence up hill now. I live in the flatland's so not much has changed. I do have a newer 10 speed as well that gets most used, of the two.


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## LuckyB (Sep 9, 2012)

JCavilia said:


> If my 1972 Peugeot U-08 hadn't been stolen 18 years ago, I'd probably still be riding it (at least occasionally).


I hear that JCaville, my Peugeot is a 1981 UE-8 and I'm still riding it often. When I ride with my wife, when the weather is foul, pub crawls etc.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

tvad said:


> No one in this thread has stated "no one wants a 10-speed bike anymore".
> 
> I _have_ stated there is less demand for new 10 speed bikes than for new 11 speed bikes. Look to all the discounted 10 speed bikes for proof.
> 
> ...


Nashbar is not LBS


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ngl said:


> Nashbar is not LBS


No kidding. The bike I linked is an example of what's available below $1000 in a 105 11 speed bike.

Let me be more clear about what I requested of you in post #58, when I wrote, "To compare apples-to-apples, one must know what 10 speed bike you refer to at $200-$300 less than the comparable 11 speed model."

Please specify what bikes (brand and models) you are referring to in post #57 in which you stated, "There is $200-$300 savings at the LBS on new 10-speed bikes over 11-speed bikes". 

What brand and model is the 10 speed bike? What brand and model is the 11 speed bike?

Thank you.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

tvad said:


> No kidding. The bike I linked is an example of what's available below $1000 in a 105 11 speed bike.
> 
> Let me be more clear about what I requested of you in post #58, when I wrote, "To compare apples-to-apples, one must know what 10 speed bike you refer to at $200-$300 less than the comparable 11 speed model."
> 
> ...


Hey - my sub $1000 105 11-speed bike suggestion is much better than your sub-$1000 11-speed bike suggestion 

I must have too much time on my hands to be even bothering with one of the lamest threads evar. The dog gets more out of chasing squirrels, than anyone could get out of this.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

tvad said:


> I understand that. My point was if he could not sell a new 10 speed road bike in two years, then one could expect similar problems selling a used 10 speed road bike.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification about his market.


Well you are right. A high end used or new bike would be a mistake to buy in 10 speed. However for $1000.00 you could buy an Allez or similar brand with Tiagra. It might run a couple hundred more. A Nashbar bike could be cheaper but I do not see how a new rider would know about sizing or have the skills to tune it.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

tvad said:


> No kidding. The bike I linked is an example of what's available below $1000 in a 105 11 speed bike.
> 
> Let me be more clear about what I requested of you in post #58, when I wrote, "To compare apples-to-apples, one must know what 10 speed bike you refer to at $200-$300 less than the comparable 11 speed model."
> 
> ...


Specialized roubaix sport 105 $2200 vs tiagra $2000
Specialized Allez comp 105 $1550 vs elite tiagra $1250
C'dale synapse 105 disk $1570 vs tiagra disc $1300
Trek domane 2.3 105 $1680 vs domane 2.0 tiagra $1360


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tvad said:


> There are always exceptions, regardless how small. Some folks make it a religious-like quest to point them out.
> 
> 11 speed gearing is the present standard for road cycling. Period.
> 
> There is no practical value in choosing a new 10 speed groupset over a new 11 speed groupset, including the negligible price difference.


Negligible to you and I, yes. Not negligible to a beginner on a tight budget who may or may not continue to be interested in the sport. This is why I am of the opinion that beginners should start low. If/when they become addicted to the sport, they won't mind spending the extra $$ to upgrade. If they lose interest all together, they then have wasted less.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

JCavilia said:


> Fair point, but OTOH since I've advanced into my 60s I ride FG more and more (more than half my miles now). I still ride the road bike on longer and hillier rides, but riding fixed so much has given me an increased flexibility over a wide cadence range. I still shift a lot on the road bike, but I don't seem to need so much fine tuning.
> 
> My (Campy-equipped) road bike has a 9-speed 13-26, which is straight from 13 to 17. The 2-tooth jumps above that don't bother me.


I have to admit that I am doing the same... I am on the SS right now again (since the end of September) and I do as many miles on the SS as on the road bike per week (and amazingly the same average speed). I still prefer SS over fixie because of the significant hills, but man it makes maintenance a breeze for sure.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lombard said:


> Negligible to you and I, yes. Not negligible to a beginner on a tight budget who may or may not continue to be interested in the sport.


If $50 is not negligible, then I suggest the prospective buyer forego the bike purchase and focus on other areas of his/her budget.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ngl said:


> Specialized roubaix sport 105 $2200 vs tiagra $2000
> Specialized Allez comp 105 $1550 vs elite tiagra $1250
> C'dale synapse 105 disk $1570 vs tiagra disc $1300
> Trek domane 2.3 105 $1680 vs domane 2.0 tiagra $1360


Thanks.

None of those bikes are under the OP's $1000 price target mentioned in Post #25.


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## MXL (Jun 26, 2012)

FWIW, I have 10 speed Campy on all my bikes and I'll likely keep it until I need to replace a shifter, then I'll likely move to 11 speed. However, everything's operating like the day I bought it.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Reducing the chain's pitch from the current 1/2" to something like 7/16" will let the smaller rear cogs have closer ratios, assuming closer ratios are still desirable beyond what you are getting now with the 1/2" pitch chain.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

what are we trying to accomplish here?


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

tvad said:


> Thanks.
> 
> None of those bikes are under the OP's $1000 price target mentioned in Post #25.


I quoted you retail prices from LBS as example comparison prices between 105 and tiagra equipped bikes. That's exactly what you asked for. At this time of year a buyer can go into many LBS and get a bike at a discount. I am not going to scour the net (like you) to find the OP a discounted bike. 

I went through a few of your earlier posts. I just figured out all you want to do is win an argument...no matter how trivial. You spend hours and hours reading and rereading and researching and dissecting peoples posts so you can win...without any benefit to the OP. 

To the OP, go into a LBS (or a few of them if you like/have more than one) and tell them what you want and what you have to spend. A good LBS will help you. Most likely they'll provide some education on things like component differences & bike differences, let you try a few bikes, properly size you, provide local warranty & service you for years to come. They are going to make 10-speed components for years because they are still making 9-speed and 8-speed bikes now. If you want to save a few bucks on an 11-speed mail order bike then by all means do so.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

tvad said:


> Like my Schwinn Continental!


I had a Schwinn Varsity as a first bike.. Stayed with the 2x5 until 2x6 came out which required little to upgrade to. I skipped 7,8 and 9 speed and now have 2x10. I will probably skip 11 speed and whatever comes next as my current bike will last for many years.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

myhui said:


> Reducing the chain's pitch from the current 1/2" to something like 7/16" will let the smaller rear cogs have closer ratios, assuming closer ratios are still desirable beyond what you are getting now with the 1/2" pitch chain.


Shimano tried to get a 10mm pitch chain going as the new standard decades ago (that's smaller than 7/16). Didn't fly. Anyway, it wouldn't make much difference.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

factory feel said:


> what are we trying to accomplish here?


Who's "we"? I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm just shooting the sh*t about a topic that I find interesting, and about which there are interesting (if mild) disagreements. I hope it's been of some help to the OP, too.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I wonder how long it will be before Shimano and/or Campy come out with a 12 speed cassette that fits on a road hub with 135mm spacing?
With 135mm spacing, they might even jump to 13 cogs. With a smaller diameter freehub, they could fit a 10 tooth cog on it. Imagine a 10-25 13 speed cassette, with a 50-34 compact crank.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I'm getting Tiso 12 speed flashbacks... 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/co...2-speed-wireless-electronic-group-297496.html

Filed in the same place as the Zeroshift car transmission.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I remember reading years ago that Shimano filed for a 14 speed cassette patent back in 1999, so who knows what their latest tech patents would have the count at...

Patent US5954604 - Multiple sprocket assembly for a bicycle - Google Patents


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ngl said:


> OP, if it were me and price was a major consideration, I would rather purchase a 10 speed bike now than have to wait a few months in order to save the money for an 11 speed bike.



Or if/when the time comes that you decide you want that 11-speed groupset, you can upgrade the existing bike and sell your 10-speed groupset on eBay - you would be surprised how much you might get. One caveat is that while many new 10-speed bikes are sold with an 11-speed compatible rear wheel, a small few still aren't.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> I just pointed OP to several 105 bikes under his budget of $1000. At Performance the difference between their cheapest 105 bike and a Tiagra bike is $50.




That may be true, but are there other trade-offs to get that cheapest 105 bike?

Remember that you can upgrade most components later, but you can't upgrade the frame. Well, in actuality, you can, but it is rarely cost effective given the labor involved.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lombard said:


> That may be true, but are there other trade-offs to get that cheapest 105 bike?
> 
> Remember that you can upgrade most components later, but you can't upgrade the frame.


That's an excellent point about the frame, although at this price level I'm doubtful that there are any appreciable quality differences among the frames.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tvad said:


> That's an excellent point about the frame, although at this price level I'm doubtful that there are any appreciable quality differences among the frames.




I am not convinced that the frame made by Nashbar (or whoever makes their frames) is of the same quality as one made by Cannondale or Giant.

I think we can conclude that in an apples-to-apples comparison, the difference between a bike with 10-speed vs. 11-speed groupset is anywhere between $250 and $400.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lombard said:


> I am not convinced that the frame made by Nashbar (or whoever makes their frames) is of the same quality as one made by Cannondale or Giant.


They're both contracted out to Chinese to Taiwanese contract builders, and likely of similar quality, IMO. We'll agree to disagree on this point.



Lombard said:


> I think we can conclude that in an apples-to-apples comparison, the difference between a bike with 10-speed vs. 11-speed groupset is anywhere between $250 and $400.


I would agree with that, depending on the retail source...online or B&M. If the 10s Tiagra equipped bike has an 11s compatible rear wheel, then buying it with an eye on upgrading to 11s later could be an option. If upgrading to 11s is even remotely a consideration, I would avoid purchasing a 10s Tiagra bike with a 10s only rear wheel because the upgrade costs later will be more than the price difference now.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

hmmm, had a Sturmey-Archer 3-spd thumb-shift bike back in the day...blech.

also had a 7-spd bike (an aluminum Centurion) that I really didn't care for...

like my 8-spd DA and 10-spd Ultegra bikes.

since both of the 'prime number' setups were bad experiences, I'll skip 11...


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I'd go 11 speed Chorus. OTOH, I love riding my single speed, too. Were I buying Shimano, I'd buy 105.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tvad said:


> We'll agree to disagree on this point.



Sounds fair enough.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

Between 10 and 11 it makes no difference. I have a couple of bikes with 9 speed as well. I don't miss the extra gears

I ride mostly by myself which probably makes a difference


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## ex_machina (Oct 20, 2015)

Herbie said:


> Between 10 and 11 it makes no difference. I have a couple of bikes with 9 speed as well. I don't miss the extra gears
> 
> I ride mostly by myself which probably makes a difference


Interesting. So, basically, bike riding is inherently fun, and perhaps even more fun if you don't have to deal with peer pressure to buy the latest and greatest.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Road bikes with more than a one tooth jump through the 19 cog are unacceptable.
> 
> 8 cogs 13-21 are enough to avoid that with 50-39/40-30 rings.
> 
> ...


Interesting graph. 

I'd gladly give up the 11 cog gear for an 18 cog. Riders would use that more than the 11. Who needs an 11 when for all practical purposes the 12 will do the job better! :yesnod: You shouldn't cross chain from the 34 to the 11, so that's out. Who here can sprint in an 11 cog to 35 mph, who couldn't do it better in the 12 cog?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Fredrico said:


> Who needs an 11 when for all practical purposes the 12 will do the job better!


I use an 11 tooth cog all the time while descending Southern California mountains.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I prefer 10 speed because an 11 speed cassette wouldn't work on my wheels. (and there is no way I'm going to replace all my rear wheels)
> On the other hand, a 12-25 wouldn't be bad (if I ever replace all my components and rear wheels) You get the 16, the 18, and a 25. I have no use for an 11 because I can spin pretty damn fast. I have no use for a 28, because I ain't no sissy boy.


Right on. 

16 and 18 get used way more than a funky 27 or lower. If rider can't climb a 17 pound bike in 39-25, he can easily train up (and drop some fat).


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Fredrico said:


> If rider can't climb a 17 pound bike in 39-25, he can easily train up (and drop some fat).


I see you're commenting again based on your memories from the 1970s. Those were the days...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> I see you're commenting again based on your memories from the 1970s. Those were the days...


When men were men, not overindulgent pu$$ies. :frown2:


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Found a photo from one of your races, Frederico. Back when men were men. And sheep were nervous.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

tvad said:


> I see you're commenting again based on your memories from the 1970s. Those were the days...


At age 69 Joe Friel was still racing at 154 pounds because that's what he weighed at age 18. Middle age spread is entirely optional, and you only loose 0.5% of your power for each year past 35.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> Found a photo from one of your races, Frederico. Back when men were men. And sheep were nervous.
> 
> View attachment 310198


Is he overgeared? Looks like he's hardly working up a sweat. :yesnod:


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> At age 69 Joe Friel was still racing at 154 pounds because that's what he weighed at age 18. Middle age spread is entirely optional, and you only loose 0.5% of your power for each year past 35.


Interesting. Props to Joe Friel.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> I use an 11 tooth cog all the time while descending Southern California mountains.


Wow, good for you, tvad. :yesnod: So when do you spin out, 45, 50mph? 

On a nice descent as I spin out in 53-13, I notice an increase in speed of about 1 mph when I stop furiously pedaling, fold the legs against the frame, and go into a full tuck. :yesnod:

What's the point of that 11? Soft pedaling so the legs recover from that hard climb you had to suffer getting there?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Fredrico said:


> *Back in the day*, On a nice descent as I *spun* out in 53-13, I *noticed* an increase in speed of about 1 mph when I *stopped* furiously pedaling, *folded* the legs against the frame, and *went* into a full tuck. :yesnod:


Fixed it for you. Memories are fun. Sweet, sweet memories. 

As I get older, I notice my speeds from the old days increasing until it seems I should have turned pro! Wait...wasn't I a pro? I seem to recall.......zzzz.....


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> Fixed it for you. Memories are fun. Sweet, sweet memories.
> 
> As I get older, I notice my speeds from the old days increasing until it seems I should have turned pro! Wait...wasn't I a pro? I seem to recall.......zzzz.....


But tvad, descending is a matter of gross weight and good roller bearings! Doesn't take youthful vigor to out descend a young pretender trying to stay on top of his 50-11 as he's hitting that wall of air at 40 mph. 

Aerodynamics takes over! It is the one thing that doesn't age discriminate. :yesnod:


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Age...oh my.

Does this look familiar?








You're too much fun, Frederico. Type on, brother.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Looks like he "died" working up that climb. :yesnod: Probably didn't train enough on the flats, either. :frown2:


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Right on.
> 
> 16 and 18 get used way more than a funky 27 or lower. If rider can't climb a 17 pound bike in 39-25, he can easily train up (and drop some fat).




39-25? How fast a cadence can you maintain with this going up a 14% grade?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ex_machina said:


> Interesting. So, basically, bike riding is inherently fun, and perhaps even more fun if you don't have to deal with peer pressure to buy the latest and greatest.




DING! DING! DING! He scores! Couldn't have said it better myself!


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## LuckyB (Sep 9, 2012)

Quote Originally Posted by ex_machina View Post
Interesting. So said:


> DING! DING! DING! He scores! Couldn't have said it better myself!


Yeah, Fred's have more fun because they're riding their bikes, more, and worrying less about what others may be thinking.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Back when men were men........and so were women.

If you had a tough climb, you put on a 24 to go with your 42.
.
.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Depends how long it is. If it's only one, or two hundred yards long, you charge it out of the saddle, in the 23, or 21. If it's a mile, you suffer like a dog (but never cry about it)


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Back when men were men........and so were women.
> 
> If you had a tough climb, you put on a 24 to go with your 42.
> .
> .


That was mainly because the Campy Nuovo Record derailleurs did not have a long enough cage to wrap around any gear larger than a 24. 

Jeannie Longo was a phenomenon, but I've ridden with women who could stay up front with the big boys.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> 39-25? How fast a cadence can you maintain with this going up a 14% grade?


There are so few around here, i never encounter them. I'm told by the experts the hardest climbs out of Rock Creek Park, DC, are 5-10%. With determination and a willingness to suffer, these can be handled in 42-21 or 23, and yes, wimp out with a 24 if there's lots of climbing. 

When the roads were built, if horses couldn't make it up the grade, the road would be leveled and snake up the mountain with switchbacks. That's how to climb a 14% grade in 42-21, too, I guess: zig zag up the road. But I've only had to do that twice in the last 10 years. These fabled 14% grades you mention are as rare as hens teeth. :yesnod: 

Nobody spins up 14% grades, anyway, so what's the point of having a gear that'll spin out at 12 mph?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Fredrico said:


> When the roads were built, if horses couldn't make it up the grade, the road would be leveled and snake up the mountain with switchbacks.


'Course, you and your buddies were there to witness it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> That's how to climb a 14% grade in 42-21, too, I guess: zig zag up the road.


Kind of difficult to do with traffic behind. 



Fredrico said:


> But I've only had to do that twice in the last 10 years. These fabled 14% grades you mention are as rare as hens teeth. :yesnod:


Come up to northern New England sometime. Nothing rare about them.



Fredrico said:


> Nobody spins up 14% grades, anyway, so what's the point of having a gear that'll spin out at 12 mph?


Speak for yourself. I and many others spin up 12-14% grades all the time, that's what 34-32 is for! I'm certainly not strong enough to do it with 42-21 or even 39-25.


----------



## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> No experience with Performance, but I do have an older Fuji Roubaix and it's a nice bike with a very nice all carbon fork. 3 105 bikes here under $1,000
> 
> Performance Bike - Racing Road Bikes - Category


Fuji is a decent brand and is sold at independent LBS's in many regions of US. If OP's budget can go to $1k I would say go for one of those in 105 11sp. 
But what the hell do I know- I'm still riding 9 & 10sp Ultegra and DA groupos that just keep on workin' fine. And 8 wheelsets I can keep swapping out between 'em.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Kind of difficult to do with traffic behind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use a 34/30 myself. Most rides are Cat 3 and 4 type climbing and Cat 2 if you want to beat yourself up which I do sometimes. The Cat 2 segment only has 105 riders that have ridden up there. I am number 89 which I am not real proud of but it is what it is.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

BikeLayne said:


> I use a 34/30 myself. Most rides are Cat 3 and 4 type climbing and Cat 2 if you want to beat yourself up which I do sometimes. The Cat 2 segment only has 105 riders that have ridden up there. I am number 89 which I am not real proud of but it is what it is.


Then drop the wimpy 34/30, go up to, say, 34/25, and your legs will get stronger, demand more from the cardio system, and you'll get faster, up there in the top 30%. :yesnod:

No pain no gain, as the saying goes. How fast are you going "spinning" up those 14% grades, 6 mph?


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Kind of difficult to do with traffic behind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The two roads I had to zigzag up were empty of traffic in residential areas. The roads that go anywhere usually aren't graded so steep, but In VT or ME, I could see having some low climbing gears. But IMO, 39/27 would be more than adequate on a light bike, rider wgt. 150-160#. 

Heavier guys need lower gears to lift all that girth up the climb. Climbers are skinny guys with great strength to weight ratios. That'll never happen spinning up hills in such low gears. Do you get stronger? Can you upshift once in a while on these torture courses?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Fredrico said:


> How fast are you going "spinning" up those 14% grades, 6 mph?


What difference does it make? 

First, it wasn't BikeLayne who said he was climbing 14% grades, it was Lombard.

Second, let's assume BikeLayne is riding as hard as he's capable and at a pace that's comfortable (if not challenging) and leave it at that.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> What difference does it make?
> 
> First, it wasn't BikeLayne who said he was climbing 14% grades, it was Lombard.
> 
> Second, let's assume BikeLayne is riding as hard as he's capable and at a pace that's comfortable (if not challenging) and leave it at that.


Ok, that's cool. But we're not talking about what's possible!


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Fredrico said:


> Ok, that's cool. But we're not talking about what's possible!


I don't see anyone in this forum asking for coaching.

Perhaps you should hang out more often in the Coaching Forum.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> I don't see anyone in this forum asking for coaching.
> 
> Perhaps you should hang out more often in the Coaching Forum.


I'm not a coach.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> There are so few around here, i never encounter them. I'm told by the experts the hardest climbs out of Rock Creek Park, DC, are 5-10%. With determination and a willingness to suffer, these can be handled in 42-21 or 23, and yes, wimp out with a 24 if there's lots of climbing.
> 
> When the roads were built, if horses couldn't make it up the grade, the road would be leveled and snake up the mountain with switchbacks. That's how to climb a 14% grade in 42-21, too, I guess: zig zag up the road. But I've only had to do that twice in the last 10 years. These fabled 14% grades you mention are as rare as hens teeth. :yesnod:


Ahhh no wonder you use a 39-25. You ride sissy hills.

14%+ grades are not fabled in my area. They're routine. 20% isn't out of the question.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Then drop the wimpy 34/30, go up to, say, 34/25, and your legs will get stronger, demand more from the cardio system, and you'll get faster, up there in the top 30%. :yesnod:
> 
> No pain no gain, as the saying goes. How fast are you going "spinning" up those 14% grades, 6 mph?


My average speed up is 5.8mh on my PR which was in Sept. The KOM climbed at a 11.8mph in 2010. His name is Andy Jacque Maynes (brother of Ben Jacque Maynes). In my age group of over 65y/o the fastest rider averaged 6.4mph on the climb. That was in 2012 I think. Anyway I will pass on trashing my knees with a 25 and stick with my 30. If I ever go 11 speed I will get a 32 and I will be faster for it as I will not need to zig zag and can ride a shorter distance.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> I'm not a coach.



You are giving me bad advice which I did not ask for. But it's ok and I forgive you. However it rained last night and it's beautiful today. Fenders are on and I am headed up to Quien Sabe road (cat 2) and will attempt to improve my lowly 5.8mph.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> My average speed up is 5.8mh on my PR which was in Sept. The KOM climbed at a 11.8mph in 2010. His name is Andy Jacque Maynes (brother of Ben Jacque Maynes). In my age group of over 65y/o the fastest rider averaged 6.4mph on the climb. That was in 2012 I think. Anyway I will pass on trashing my knees with a 25 and stick with my 30. If I ever go 11 speed I will get a 32 and I will be faster for it as I will not need to zig zag and can ride a shorter distance.




Exactly, BikeLayne. Making our knees last is more important than bragging rights about who can climb in the hardest gears. As long as I can climb these steep grades without having to stop, I am happy.

On a 14% grade, 7-8mph is typical for me when I'm in top shape, otherwise it's more like 5-6mph. And that's straight up, no zig-zagging.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Ahhh no wonder you use a 39-25. You ride sissy hills.
> 
> 14%+ grades are not fabled in my area. They're routine. 20% isn't out of the question.




I would have to be in MUCH better shape than I am now to do 20% without stopping or zig-zagging!


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Elefantino would have ridden them all in the big ring!


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If you needed more than a 24, the guys would laugh at you, and suggest that you just might need a triple.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If you needed more than a 24, the guys would laugh at you, and suggest that you just might need a triple.




Quite frankly, I really don't care who laughs at me. And as a matter of fact, I still have and use my triple road bike on occasion including early in the riding season before I get back into good shape.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Exactly, BikeLayne. Making our knees last is more important than bragging rights about who can climb in the hardest gears. As long as I can climb these steep grades without having to stop, I am happy.
> 
> On a 14% grade, 7-8mph is typical for me when I'm in top shape, otherwise it's more like 5-6mph. And that's straight up, no zig-zagging.


Healthy knees in your Senior years are the difference between the couch and an active lifestyle.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Well I am back from my PR attempt. It's a Category 2 climb and has varying degrees of climbing pitches and my lowly average speed of 5.8 is now history. It's now 5.9 and I reduced my time by 14 seconds. However my 89th place did not change. I am not saying that the Quien Sabe climb is all that as it is just the steep climb near my house. Over in Santa Cruz there are a number of climbs that are more difficult such as Alba Rd which is included in their yearly Mountain Challenge Century. 

I never really said anything about a 14% climb myself. The Quien Sabe climb has various degrees of pitch with a maximum section at 31% according to Strava. The first section is quite pleasant becoming more difficult as you go. Anyway it's mostly popular with local riders and folks from out of town choose other rides or Freemont Peak for a challenging climb. Eureka Canyon, Santa Cruz area is just as hard as Quien Sabe even though it is not as steep. It is probably twice as long. I did that ride recently but doubt I will go back because of the traffic. I also rode Empire grade from UCSC up and over to the coast and it was fun especially the long downhill to the coast. However the traffic on Empire grade is way over the top and I am not going back. However just up the coast from Santa Cruz and making the Swanton Loop climb is still a great moderate effort ride. Plus I can stop in to see my daughter..

Anyway I have a 10 speed bike with compact and a 12/30 cassette which is overall excellent gearing for me. Nobody around is running a 25 but the 11/28 is probably the most common cassette. I am just an average old guy that rides bikes and I cannot win a bike race even in a field of old guys. I am never going to blitz the Quien Sabe climb. I do have a number of top 10 Strava placings in flatter segments that have only 4 or 500 feet of climbing. I can get out of the saddle and power over the bumps of only a few hundred feet. Toss a mountain in the middle and I am done.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> Healthy knees in your Senior years are the difference between the couch and an active lifestyle.




+2 today for BikeLayne!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Lombard said:


> +2 today for BikeLayne!


Thank you.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

11 without a doubt, no compromises.

At least with SRAM, you get the 11, 16, and 28 all in one cassette--wide range AND smooth gear stepping. You can't get that with 10 speed. The best you'll do with 10 speed is 2 of those 3.

Shimano 11spd is kind of stupid though... you get smaller steps in the climbing gears instead of a 16 cog. Obviously there are other options besides 11-28 but for me I need the range so that's all I'll run.

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28
11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28

At least for where I ride, there is no tangible benefit to ending with 23-25-28 vs 24-28.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

thisisthebeave said:


> 11 without a doubt, no compromises.
> 
> At least with SRAM, you get the 11, 16, and 28 all in one cassette--wide range AND smooth gear stepping. You can't get that with 10 speed. The best you'll do with 10 speed is 2 of those 3.Ah, that elusive 16 cog! Most riders could use it more than the lower three gears. It's right where gearing starts to get challenging. A two tooth jump between 17 and 15 is too big. I had only one 16 t. cog on a Regina freewheel 14, 16, 18,20,23,26. I used it all the time. 15 was always a little too tall, and 17 would spin out at a speed range frequently encountered at cycling speeds, 15-22 mph.
> 
> ...


That's right. The 16 cog is right in the speed range cyclists start to have to work hard. That 16 would come in handy. But no, Shimano would prefer rider to spin out in 17 and then upshift into the 15 and get bogged down. :frown2: Maybe with 50-34 that doesn't happen anymore, but I doubt it.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

Fredrico said:


> That's right. The 16 cog is right in the speed range cyclists start to have to work hard. That 16 would come in handy. But no, Shimano would prefer rider to spin out in 17 and then upshift into the 15 and get bogged down. :frown2: Maybe with 50-34 that doesn't happen anymore, but I doubt it.


I have a 50-34 and experienced that same issue constantly. 17 is too easy, 15 is too hard. 16 is perfect. As I get stronger I find that I'm using the 15 more often but still, having that 16 is nice. SRAM 1170 cassettes for the foreseeable future for me. Everything else is Shimano though.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

thisisthebeave said:


> I have a 50-34 and experienced that same issue constantly. 17 is too easy, 15 is too hard.


Switch to 52/36 and problem solved.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

thisisthebeave said:


> 11 without a doubt, no compromises.
> 
> At least with SRAM, you get the 11, 16, and 28 all in one cassette--wide range AND smooth gear stepping. You can't get that with 10 speed. The best you'll do with 10 speed is 2 of those 3.
> 
> Shimano 11spd is kind of stupid though...


The Shimano 105 cassette for 10 speed has the 12-27 though, and includes 16. This one does it all for me. I have little use for 11. 

Also disappointed there is no ultegra or 105 11 speed version of a wide range cassette like the 5700 12-27 that includes a 16. Oddly they list a 14-28, (try to find it for sale!) but nothing else above xx-25 that has 16.
DuraAce has a super 11 speed 12-28 cassette with 16, but geez, you gotta shell out $130 for that option.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Shimano is definitely not into the 16t. However it is pretty much the same thing with 10 or 11 speed. For me riding is mostly uphill or downhill so I tend to look for more then a 1 tooth change and am happy for the range to increase.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> Shimano is definitely not into the 16t. However it is pretty much the same thing with 10 or 11 speed. For me riding is mostly uphill or downhill so I tend to look for more then a 1 tooth change and am happy for the range to increase.




I agree that unless you are racing, it seems silly to be fixated on one middle gear choice which in some opinions here, seems to be the 16T.

However, let's debunk this myth that Shimano doesn't utilize the 16T all together. Their 11-32T Ultegra has 11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32 :

Shimano Ultegra CS-6800 11-speed Cassette - 11-32t


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

My cheat sheet for cassette cogs:


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Lombard said:


> However, let's debunk this myth that Shimano doesn't utilize the 16T all together. Their 11-32T Ultegra has 11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32 :
> 
> Shimano Ultegra CS-6800 11-speed Cassette - 11-32t


The cogs in that group go 14-16-18. A large jump from 14 to 16, and from 16-18.

The point being made in this thread is that the closer ratio Shimano clusters go 14-15-17, thereby skipping the tighter 15-16 jump.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Lombard said:


> I agree that unless you are racing, it seems silly to be fixated on one middle gear choice which in some opinions here, seems to be the 16T.
> 
> However, let's debunk this myth that Shimano doesn't utilize the 16T all together. Their 11-32T Ultegra has 11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32 :
> 
> Shimano Ultegra CS-6800 11-speed Cassette - 11-32t


My friend Robert has that cassette on his brand new Roubaix. I was watching him ride in the climbs yesterday and he uses the 50/32 gear and cross chains with it. His Roubaix is very quiet that way. He never once shifted into the 34 but the ride was only a 50fpm ride. Very pleasant ride. However he would not know if he had a 16t on his cassette and would not care. The cassette was on the bike new and he will just use that one until It is worn and needs replacing.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Lombard said:


> I agree that unless you are racing, it seems silly to be fixated on one middle gear choice which in some opinions here, seems to be the 16T.
> 
> However, let's debunk this myth that Shimano doesn't utilize the 16T all together. Their 11-32T Ultegra has 11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32 :
> 
> Shimano Ultegra CS-6800 11-speed Cassette - 11-32t


The issue is one tooth jumps, not having a 16 cog specifically.

15-17 seems to be where most road riders complain. 17-19 is noticed by many. Lance insisted on 21-22-23 big cogs although most people seem content with a 19-21 jump.

Personally I'd run a 13/14 starting cog and/or triple to keep one tooth jumps through the 19 cog with an acceptable low gear.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> My friend Robert has that cassette on his brand new Roubaix. I was watching him ride in the climbs yesterday and he uses the 50/32 gear and cross chains with it. His Roubaix is very quiet that way. He never once shifted into the 34 but the ride was only a 50fpm ride.



Right now, I have a 50/34 crankset and a 12-30T cassette. I NEVER cross chain in larger/large as it is way too noisy and put a lot of stress on everything. My large chainring is rather noisy regardless, so unless I really need it, I stay in the small ring. I have no problems cross chaining small/small. All gear choices in the small ring are very quiet.

Not sure why the large chainring is so noisy. It's not rubbing against anything unless going to the largest cogs. It's an FSA Gossamer.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> 11 without a doubt, no compromises.
> 
> At least with SRAM, you get the 11, 16, and 28 all in one cassette--wide range AND smooth gear stepping. You can't get that with 10 speed. The best you'll do with 10 speed is 2 of those 3.


SRAM cassettes are inappropriate for road riding because they have a 17-19 jump.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Right now, I have a 50/34 crankset and a 12-30T cassette. I NEVER cross chain in larger/large as it is way too noisy and put a lot of stress on everything. My large chainring is rather noisy regardless, so unless I really need it, I stay in the small ring. I have no problems cross chaining small/small. All gear choices in the small ring are very quiet.
> 
> Not sure why the large chainring is so noisy. It's not rubbing against anything unless going to the largest cogs. It's an FSA Gossamer.


I have always avoided cross chain also but once I got home I put the bike on the rack and it was pretty noisy in the big/big. However the 30t is pushing the limit for the derailleur. I took off the 30t as I am not going to take on any serious climbs until the spring and am now using my 12-27 and if I cross chain that it is not noisy at all. Maybe it is because of the chain tension is reduced and the lower pulley is a further distance from the big ring which reduces the chain angle a bit. However I do not really know other then it works better. Maybe in the spring I will get the 5701GS as it will take a 32 and easily take a 30t or maybe I will just use the 27 and not ride up that hill anymore. Fun and general fitness is my goal anyway. 

The 12-27 has a 16t for those that are looking for that on a 10 speed.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> I have always avoided cross chain also but once I got home I put the bike on the rack and it was pretty noisy in the big/big. However the 30t is pushing the limit for the derailleur. I took off the 30t as I am not going to take on any serious climbs until the spring and am now using my 12-27 and if I cross chain that it is not noisy at all. Maybe it is because of the chain tension is reduced and the lower pulley is a further distance from the big ring which reduces the chain angle a bit. However I do not really know other then it works better. Maybe in the spring I will get the 5701GS as it will take a 32 and easily take a 30t or maybe I will just use the 27 and not ride up that hill anymore. Fun and general fitness is my goal anyway.
> 
> The 12-27 has a 16t for those that are looking for that on a 10 speed.




When you say it was noisy in the big/big combination, what kind of noise was it?

Was it a "motor boating" noise? If so, then that's the rear derailleur pulley hitting the teeth of the cassette. You will need a different rear derailleur if you want to keep the 30T.

Was it a metal against metal noise? If so, then that's probably the chain hitting the edge of the front derailleur. This is not a fault of the rear derailleur. You shouldn't be using the big/big combination anyway, it is not designed for this. You have a small chainring for a reason!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Lombard said:


> When you say it was noisy in the big/big combination, what kind of noise was it?
> 
> Was it a "motor boating" noise? If so, then that's the rear derailleur pulley hitting the teeth of the cassette. You will need a different rear derailleur if you want to keep the 30T.
> 
> Was it a metal against metal noise? If so, then that's probably the chain hitting the edge of the front derailleur. This is not a fault of the rear derailleur. You shouldn't be using the big/big combination anyway, it is not designed for this. You have a small chainring for a reason!


I think it's all been covered.


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