# best Ti welds - Seven, Moots or Indy Fab?



## breckend (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm looking to purchase my first Ti custom bike and agonizing a bit over which to go with - Seven, Moots or Indy Fab. The Seven Axiom SL is the front runner at this point with its custom double butted Ti tubing. Also eyeing the IF Club Racer in Ti.

Any comments on the Ti welds these companies are doing? 
I suspect they are all doing great welding and its a matter of talking to the local Seattle retailers to decide who I want to work with.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Or if there is an earlier thread I'd be much obliged if you could point me to it. Thanks


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Weld quality shouldn't be a major factor in choosing among high end brands like those. I've actually moved away from Ti after I tried and really enjoyed some high end steel bikes, even though they don't have particularly pretty welds, but if I was going to do Ti again, I'd pick Seven for their custom tubing, then Firefly (http://fireflybicycles.com) over IF because of their cool frame options, then Eriksen (Kent Eriksen Cycles) over Moots because he specializes in custom frames.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Weld quality is not always discernable by looking at it.


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## breckend (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks skepticman. I actually have a steel Colnago Master that I absolutely love but looking for a more comfortable bike for all around riding, especially wet winters in Seattle! Thank you


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

skepticman said:


> Weld quality shouldn't be a major factor in choosing among high end brands like those. I've actually moved away from Ti after I tried and really enjoyed some high end steel bikes, even though they don't have particularly pretty welds, but if I was going to do Ti again, I'd pick Seven for their custom tubing, then Firefly (http://fireflybicycles.com) over IF because of their cool frame options, then Eriksen (Kent Eriksen Cycles) over Moots because he specializes in custom frames.



+1 on Eriksen.

I saw a custom build of one of his MTB frames and the workmanship was outstanding.

I walked by his shop in Steamboat (closed til Oct :cryin the other day and it doesn't really look like some of the highest quality fames in the business are built there, but if you can get up close and personal with one of them ........

I really hope he shows up for the handbuilt show in Denver. I really want to talk to the guy. There's some very good custom builders out here. Moots (sort of), Dean, Mosaic, Eriksen, Spot, Victoria and so on. Eriksen is definitely The Guy.

Take a look at Mosaic. They're New Guys On The Block, but they're making some nice frames.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

All those named thus far are top-notch. There's also Kish, and Lynskey, and Alchemy, and Vertigo, and Black Sheep, and... (all in no particular order.)

One bit of personal preference: The finish. A few of these use a bead-blasted finish for their default. Perfectly fine thing, that, and some argue that it's helpful in strengthening the frame, which I don't know about. It's also the easier road for them - again, no bad thing there.

But - 

It's something of a 'cheat' when it comes to the visual appearance of welds. The brushed finishes are a bit less forgiving, IMO. And for me, the blasted are a bit less livable. Any little scratches on a brushed finish can be addressed with a bit of Scotchbrite, where the blasted ones will need professional assistance. Not a big deal necessarily, but something to think about.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

You can have a brushed finish on any frame if you don't mind the cost and wait.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/moots/moots-registry-77396-post986569.html#post986569


zippi said:


> I just built this custom Vamoots SL. Moots sent it to me without finish and Joe Bell brushed it. Fork was also stripped and clearcoated.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

danl1 said:


> One bit of personal preference: The finish. A few of these use a bead-blasted finish for their default. Perfectly fine thing, that, and some argue that it's helpful in strengthening the frame, which I don't know about. It's also the easier road for them - again, no bad thing there.
> But -
> It's something of a 'cheat' when it comes to the visual appearance of welds. The brushed finishes are a bit less forgiving, IMO. And for me, the blasted are a bit less livable. Any little scratches on a brushed finish can be addressed with a bit of Scotchbrite, where the blasted ones will need professional assistance. Not a big deal necessarily, but something to think about.


I too pondered Ti finishes when I was choosing a custom Ti builder last year. Of course the 'blasted' finishes can't be repaired at home. I finally settled on Kish as he did a brushed finish as standard. But until it arrived I didn't realize how good it was as all I had to go off was the brushed finish of my Seven mountain bike frame.

There is no comparison between my brushed Seven and my brushed Kish. When my Kish arrived I was sure he'd messed up and had given it a blasted finish. I even e-mailed him about it. He responded a bit indignantly (I didn't blame him) stating that he didn't have to spend hours hand brushing his frames with maroon (very fine) Scotchbrite but he chose to as this finish can be easily touched up at home with maroon S/brite. So what I have is a finish that looks like a smooth pearly blasted finish with no visible "scratches" unless you look very closely in a good light (daylight is best) and one that can be forever repaired at home. Genius.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Since you're in Seattle, get a Hampsten, they're local and you can get a professional fitting. Steve and Andy Hampsten own and run the company. Andy knows his way around a road bike, especially in multiweek tours in Italy. 

Hampsten Cycles


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## breckend (Jul 6, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> There is no comparison between my brushed Seven and my brushed Kish. .


Thanks Mike, wasn't clear - you liked the Seven brushed finish more than the Kish?


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

breckend said:


> Thanks Mike, wasn't clear - you liked the Seven brushed finish more than the Kish?


Not to speak for him but we've discussed it before - he's pimping the Kish. They are nice. 

I forgot to mention Kelly Bedford, who built my wife's bike. Another artisan.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

The whole "best" welds thing has been discussed here. Search is your friend.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

breckend said:


> Thanks Mike, wasn't clear - you liked the Seven brushed finish more than the Kish?


I guess I should have made it clearer. The Seven's finish looks industrial compared to the pearly Kish. The Kish is way better.


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## petraa (Apr 13, 2012)

I know someone who had an... ahem..."less than stellar" customer service experience with Eriksen. It's easy to find only glowing reviews out there.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

petraa said:


> I know someone who had an... ahem..."less than stellar" customer service experience with Eriksen. It's easy to find only glowing reviews out there.



Eriksen's workmanship is well known to be top-notch, and his customer service (or lack thereof), particularly in the realm of communication -- is known to be some of the worst in the industry.

Your friend's experience was the rule, not the exception.


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## petraa (Apr 13, 2012)

JustTooBig said:


> Eriksen's workmanship is well known to be top-notch, and his customer service (or lack thereof), particularly in the realm of communication -- is known to be some of the worst in the industry.
> 
> Your friend's experience was the rule, not the exception.


My friend wished that he had known that beforehand. :cryin: :mad2:


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Same can be said for Black Sheep (I have one).
Beautiful bikes. Hopeless communication


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

All those named so far will produce a top flight bike.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

JustTooBig said:


> Eriksen's workmanship is well known to be top-notch, and his customer service (or lack thereof), particularly in the realm of communication -- is known to be some of the worst in the industry.


When doing my research for a custom Ti frame builder I sent out lots of e-mail inquiries. Two didn't respond - Eriksen and Baum. Jim Kish was the quickest and on a weekend too.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Are Serotta welds less Serott-ic than they used to be?


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

Bremerradkurier said:


> Are Serotta welds less Serott-ic than they used to be?


I saw a Serrota Ti bike ealier this summer and thought it was nicely done, but I don't know how old it was.


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## 251 (Nov 2, 2009)

JustTooBig said:


> Eriksen's workmanship is well known to be top-notch, and his customer service (or lack thereof), particularly in the realm of communication -- is known to be some of the worst in the industry.
> 
> Your friend's experience was the rule, not the exception.


Maybe things have changed, but I had my Eriksen hardtail MTB (gasp) made in 2008 and had great customer service. I used the phone, as opposed to email, and found everyone I dealt with to be helpful and didn't have any issues with communication. Since then, I've visited the shop and ordered some parts via the site and have only had positive experiences.

To the OP, here are some welds:


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## petraa (Apr 13, 2012)

My friend with the poor Eriksen experience recently got an IF steel Crown Jewel and he says the looks and ride of it are beautiful. He was previously riding a Gunnar Roadie. He may look into a ti CJ in the future.


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## Barger285 (Sep 9, 2012)

+1 on Eriksen.


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## paul y. (Apr 7, 2008)

Lynskey welds are nice and smooth.


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## MXL (Jun 26, 2012)

Sorry, but welds on any road bike frame just doesn't look clean - looks like someone put it together with bubble gum. With the exception of fillet brazing, lugged frames (including carbon) are the only frames that look correct in my book. But I am somewhat of a tradionalist.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

Some would say Philippe Levacon's weld are the best although you don't see them much as he is one of the only few to sand them. You may like it or not.


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

I have owned (and still own) several ti bikes - Merlin (pre-Litespeed, stock), Litespeed (stock), Seven, Moots (stock), Serotta and Kish -- and all are/were high quality bikes. The important thing is fit - period. If you don't know what size you want/need, riding style and characteristics that you want from the frame, go local for a fitting if you can. It can really add to the experience of buying a custom bike. I went to Richard Sachs when I got my frameset from him - it was fun and made the purchase all the more worthwhile.

If you can't go local, call around. Serotta has dealers that are trained by Serotta's fit labs. Others are quite experienced and can do it over the phone/email like Kish. My experience with Jim Kish was great, and we did phone and email several times over a couple of months to design an all-rounder (cross, light tourer). It took about 6 weeks from deposit to delivery (it was also painted), and it was delivered on time.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Randomly pick 2 of the builders from the list of well known Ti builders mentioned here and then toss a coin to decide which one to get. Weld prettiness has nothing to do with weld quality, which most of us here are not qualified to quantify. With that said, you can't go wrong with a Moots if you want the most pretty weld beads in the industry.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

T0mi said:


> Some would say Philippe Levacon's weld are the best although you don't see them much as he is one of the only few to sand them. You may like it or not.


When I was working at Litespeed years ago there was one welder that could actually do a smooth weld that required no sanding. It was really neat to watch him move the tig torch along slowly and then see what looked like a titanium fillet braze on the frame when he was done. Litespeed did not offer that option on any of their frame but they were making the Kellogg frames at the time and that is how all of those were welded. 

Here is the welds on my Form Cycles frame. I like them because they are smaller beads like a steel frame.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I can say that the welds on my 2008 Lynskey R320 are just as pretty as the ones on any of my friends that have Moots side by side. I do have friends that ride Moots. Since then I think Lynskey has gone to more function over beauty but to a racer or serious cyclist isn't function the most important thing?


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## Samadhi (Nov 1, 2011)

I stopped in to check out Salvagetti's new digs in Denver. They had several Mosaic frame, including a Ti MTB frame.

The quality of that frame was impressive.

I was told that current turn-around time on a Mosaic Ti frame order is 4 weeks.


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