# kinlin xr-270/alpha 340 rims.. how many holes?



## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

I am wee bit ambitious in tackling 2 different rims. 

My current weight is 176 pounds at 6 feet. I am looking at wanting to build 2 wheelsets. My current rides are a Baum corretto and a ridley noah(08) with Easton Ea90slx. So far been riding the wheelset without any hiccup for 10,000 miles except that it ain't stiff enough. More pronounced on the Noah.

1. Kinlin xr-270... For group rides flat roads and climbing/ everyday ride/ centuries... Looking at options of hubs from bikehubstore. I am looking at 24/28 rims or would it be stiff enough if I do a 20/28?

2. Alpha 340... I want a light wheelset... Looking to do 24/28... 3x on the front wheel. Would it be stiffer for climbing compared to the easton? Or just scratch the notion?

Haven't decide on spokes but would like to consider sapim cx-ray.

Thx a bundle


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

The Alpha 340 rim is very light, but it isn't very stiff. Also, why would you do 3x on the 24h front wheel? I'm assuming you meant 3x on the 28h rear wheel.

You can go either way with the XR-270s (20/28 or 24/28). Of course, more spokes increases stiffness. Thicker spokes also increase stiffness.

Hubs make a difference in wheel stiffness. You may want to look into hubs that have a right flange close to the cassette (>18mm center to drive) and also have >50% spoke tension balance on the rear. The Alchemy hubs are good for stiff wheels assuming they fit your budget. White Industries hubs are also good. With White Industries hubs, you can lace the front heads in if you want to increase lateral stiffness.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Thx for replying,

A buddy recommends a 3x on the front as an option. Would that increase stiffness?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

urawildman said:


> Thx for replying,
> 
> A buddy recommends a 3x on the front as an option. Would that increase stiffness?


You cannot do more than cross-2 with a 24 spoke wheel with standard flange sizes. (divide by 9 rule, floor(24/9) = 2)


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

The Alpha 340's are REALLY lightweight rims. You'll find your wheel going out of true rather often with only 28-spokes at your weight. I'd stick with 32 on the rear if you use that rim. Even then, that rim is still lightweight.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Thx for the lesson valleycyclist. 

Will these lightweights be a concern then for 2x for the front wheel? 24/32 or 28/32 be more ideal?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

urawildman said:


> Thx for the lesson valleycyclist.
> 
> Will these lightweights be a concern then for 2x for the front wheel? 24/32 or 28/32 be more ideal?


2x is fine for the front wheel.

It never hurts to add more spokes, but I think 24f/28r is okay at your weight. If you consider yourself moderately hard on wheels then seriously consider more spokes. Since you want stiff wheels, and these rims are not the stiffest, more spokes will put you a little closer to where you want to go.

I built a test set for myself to get used to Alpha 340 rims (20f/24r). I am about 145 lbs, and I would probably recommend 20f/28r to people similar to myself. But I have not experienced problems with the wheels so far. I'm using a White Industries front hub (2x lacing) and a Dura-Ace rear hub (2x lacing) with DT Aerolite spokes on the front and Sapim CX-Ray on the rear. The actual weight of this set is 1292 grams.
Alpha340 pictures


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

I weigh 180lbs, and I have a set of XR-270 built on the Alchemy hubset with 24/28 CX-Ray spokes (radial in the front/2-cross in the rear). So far, they have been very reliable and laterally quite stout set of wheelset.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

@ nightfend... Have you experienced the wheel going out of true, and after a period of how long? Was it a immediate buckle or slowly but surely? Thx

@ cray... Quite stout.... Are u satisfied with it or would you have laced the rear wheel differently?

@ Valleycyclist... Would thicker spokes help ie. dt competition or go to 32? I would like a compromise with lateral stiffness coming out on top. However I would like it lighter than the Easton Ea90slx at 1390gm. 

Side note... The easton wheelset starts to complain (i hear the spokes) on anything more than 5% incline on the carbon Noah. Interestingly it doesn't on the ti frame Baum, everything else equal. All setup similar as in the setup was transferred over; on the same route.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

urawildman said:


> Have you experienced the wheel going out of true, and after a period of how long? Was it a immediate buckle or slowly but surely?


I weigh the same and have ~6k miles on a set of Alpha 340s, Alchemy, CX-Rays, 18f and 24r. Never come out of true. Shouldn't... unless you hit something so hard you yield the components. 

Since you are concerned about stiffness, I think 20 or 24f and 28r is a good bet. Maybe 32r if your rear hub is less than optimal. Use light spokes with light rims.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

rruff said:


> I think 20 or 24f and 28r is a good bet. Maybe 32r if your rear hub is less than optimal. Use light spokes with light rims.


I second Ruffs opinion. 28 hole in the back is a solid option. Just as important as the hoop is a good hub choice. White Industries would be the inexpensive option and Alchemy is the top of the line. Both hubs are very high quality and build into exceptional wheels.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Thx for everyone's input.

Are the tune MIG70/mag170 hubs in the same league as the alchemy elf/orc combo? Btw am on campy Groupo; which is more optimal?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

urawildman said:


> Thx for everyone's input.
> 
> Are the tune MIG70/mag170 hubs in the same league as the alchemy elf/orc combo?


No. The Tune hubs are very nice light weight hubs however there are problems with them. 

The first and biggest problems that the old 180s had is their cassette bodies would crack under the weight of a large rider. Now this has apparently been "fixed" with the 170s however they have not been along long enough to truly trust this claim. 

A problem that still seems to plague Tune is that the 170 creeks just like the 180. Jeremy who is the owner of Alchemy actually developed fixes for both of these problems (which Tune never included in their designs even after the fixes became common knowledge) and it was his development of such fixes that inspired him to design his own hubs.

The ELF and the ORC have the BEST flange spacing of any hubs on the market. IMOP Alchemy's hub are the best high end light weight hubs available.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Thx for the valuable info. Guess I ve got to revisit the choice of hubs


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

urawildman said:


> Thx for the valuable info. Guess I ve got to revisit the choice of hubs


I had Zen built me a set of wheelset (Edge 45mm/Alchemy/CX-Ray), and I liked it so much that I dumped all my other wheelsets on eBay and had him built another set (XR-270/Alchemy/Cx-Ray).
My Edge (Enve now) is on my Time and XR-270 is on my Serotta Legend Ti (bad weather/back up bike), and I don't see the need for anymore wheelsets for a loooooong time.

Alchemy hubs aren't cheap, but I think you will appreciate the durability, the looks, stiffness and low maintenance.
Just be sure to lace the front wheel with the spoke head in otherwise you may have the clearance issue.....


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## James6b (Aug 22, 2011)

Need posts


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

The new wide bikehubstore front hub is splitting hairs identical dimensionally to the alchemy hub. Its going to build up to be the stiffest wheel you can really build.. but its drastically cheaper.


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## svard75 (Jun 10, 2011)

I second TomH's comment above. I have a wheelset built from bikehubstore.com parts and I weigh a fit 210lbs. I used the kinlin XR300 28/32 front radially laced and rear 3x DS/NDS and they are perfect. 1500gs for the set at about $300. 300k so far no issues and the hubs (Although generic no-name) roll perfectly with Enduromax bearings.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Noted with thanks.

Will be saving the pennies for the alchemy...

May do a kinlin/bikehubstore.


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## rockon (Nov 6, 2007)

urawildman

Do you build these wheels yourself or have someone build them for you? please refer. I too, 145lbs slow easy on wheels, consider a set using bikehubstore (20f new wide + 24 (16:8) rear) and Alpha 340. I know that there are few reputable builders replied in this thread but no one carries hubs from bikehubstore so I'm afraid to ask directly.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

I ve got a couple of options,

my lbs (for a small fee)
a close friend (experienced)

Lastly by myself.. and have it verified by either above ... would be my preferred choice


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Received these Alchemy hubs on Xmas from Zen.

Red set is Shimano

silver is for Campy.

Both sets are 20/28, and will be using Sapim cx-ray on Stan no tubes alpha340.

Can u point me to the length required for spokes. I will calculate as well and see what are my findings..

1. Radial front 20.

2. Rear Shimano 28 (3x)

3. Rear Campy 28 (3x)

Do you use the stated ERD or measure yourself?

Thanks in advance and To everyone out there A HAPPY NEW YEAR.. n ride safe


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I've just finished building a pair of wheels with Stans Alpha 340's, DT Revs, and Circus Monkey hubs 32 spoke 3X.

Ist wheel built up OK. The second rim has a hop right at the joint which can't be eliminated. It's been much harder to build straight. So a little disappointing at this price to have a rim so out of true. If the seller wasn't an ocean away I'd be returning it, but as it is I'm going to ride it & see. 

The riding test will have to wait for the weather to improve. Too cold today.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

urawildman said:


> Received these Alchemy hubs on Xmas from Zen.
> 
> Red set is Shimano
> 
> ...


Hey Wildman, 

Here is the deal. I have never actually measured the ERD of the Alpha 340, however the stated number of 601 has always given us the correct spoke lengths. 
Concerning lengths, here are the numbers I got: 

Front (radial): 286mm
Rear (drive side 3x): 294mm
Rear (non drive 3x): 298mm

Here is a link to the Spoke Calc that we use as well: 

Spoke Length Calculator

Happy New Years to you as well and thanks for the business!


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Hey Wildman,
> 
> Here is the deal. I have never actually measured the ERD of the Alpha 340, however the stated number of 601 has always given us the correct spoke lengths.
> Concerning lengths, here are the numbers I got:
> ...


You may want to check those numbers, I get 281mm front, 293mm non drive and 290mm drive side.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Ligero said:


> You may want to check those numbers, I get 281mm front, 293mm non drive and 290mm drive side.


Hmm. I just double checked and I am getting the same numbers. However, regardless of the numbers you and I are getting, the OP should do the final spoke calculations.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 17, 2007)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I second Ruffs opinion. 28 hole in the back is a solid option. Just as important as the hoop is a good hub choice. White Industries would be the inexpensive option and Alchemy is the top of the line. Both hubs are very high quality and build into exceptional wheels.


How do you rate Chris Kings R45's in this field?


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

@Zen, did u use ERD of 601(typo?) or 591?

@Ligero, I am looking for the Tune mig70 and mag180 hubs specs as I am building up 03 wheelsets.

1 Shimano alchemy (radial/3x)
1 Campy alchemy (radial/3x)
1 Shimano tune (radial/2x)

All wheelsets will be 20/28.

THx.. Hope everyone had a smashing *hic* new year.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

urawildman said:


> @Zen, did u use ERD of 601(typo?) or 591?
> 
> @Ligero, I am looking for the Tune mig70 and mag180 hubs specs as I am building up 03 wheelsets.
> 
> ...


1 Shimano alchemy (radial/3x) - Front 282mm, NDS 2x 284mm, DS 3x 290mm
1 Campy alchemy (radial/3x) - Front 282mm, NDS 2x 284mm, DS 3x 290mm
1 Shimano tune (radial/2x) - Front 278mm, NDS 2x 285mm, DS 2x 279mm 3x would be 290mm

I gave you 3x drive side lengths for the Alchemy rear hubs because the drive side needs to be laced 3x or it could cause issues with the spoke tension pulling the bearing bore open slightly under the drive side flange. In the Alchemy paperwork it is listed as a requirement or the warranty is void.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

this has been brought up before, ERD listed on the rim says 591, wheelbuilder.com list it at 594 and zen says to use 601. So i we use 601 will the threads bottom out on the driveside spokes on the rear hub?


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

@Ligero Thx for the input. Sorry I should have been more clear. On the alchemy wheelset should have been like this for spoking..

Front wheel- radial
Rear wheel- nds and ds (3x)


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Hey I messed up here. I had a brain fart and punched in an ERD of 601. Go with the lengths Troy gave. Sorry about the mistake!


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

I ve got the same calculations for the Alchemy hubs as follows similar to Ligero.

For 3x on NDS

Campy calculation is 292.6. I should round it down to 292?

Shimano calculation 292.4. Similar rounding to 292?

Also now on the subject of nipples. I should use 12mm?

Thx I am getting closer to my objectives..


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

urawildman said:


> I ve got the same calculations for the Alchemy hubs as follows similar to Ligero.
> 
> For 3x on NDS
> 
> ...


Always round up and not down when it comes to spokes. Those lengths are perfect for cx-rays because cx-rays run about .8mm short so if you order 294mm you will get a spoke that measures just over 293mm, which will be perfect for your build. 

As far as nipples go it doesn't really matter on the length as the threads are in the same place, just the flats of the nipple get longer. 16mm nipples do have threads that are 2mm longer but there are only a few rims that you actually need to use 16mm nipples for. So you can use 12 or 14mm nipples as they will both build up the same.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Thx for the info Ligero. I'm one step closer..yeah!

I've decided on brass 12mm nipples. Just 30gm more weight, and I can live with that.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

I've got my spokes ready. The front is done by my wheelbuilder. But the rear for both nds and ds spokes are too long by 2mm. Did we miss something here?

What can I do abt it? Re-thread? I would like to discuss my options.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

You can add threads to long spokes, but you need the tool.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

Thx rruf,

I have sorted the spokes, got them re-threaded and cut to length.

Actual lengths needed is..
NDS 3X - 292mm
DS 3X - 289mm

Wheelsets built and ready for action.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

I have put these wheels to a fair bit of mileage and like em. I was worried abt how soft these rims are, and my builder also mentioned it too.

I like the way they ride. I got up to 40kmh faster than previous wheelset(placebo?). They are not super stiff(rear) but its enough for me.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

urawildman said:


> I have put these wheels to a fair bit of mileage and like em. I was worried abt how soft these rims are, and my builder also mentioned it too.
> 
> I like the way they ride. I got up to 40kmh faster than previous wheelset(placebo?). They are not super stiff(rear) but its enough for me.


Glad the rims are working out for you. The Stan's rims are nice as long as you build them with higher spoke counts and make sure and check the wear marks on the brake surface.

On a side note, I love titanium bikes and there is not much not to love about that Baum!


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 17, 2007)

I have a set as well with Alpha 340s , Chris King R45 and CX rays. Might reduce the amount of stickers to one/wheel.





















Front : Chris King R45 24H ceramic bearings - Sapim CXRay silver - Stan's ZTR Alpha 340 - Crankbrothers Split QR skewer. 570gr. without skewer

Rear : Chris King R45 28H Campagnolo driveshell ceramic bearings - Sapim CXRay silver - Stan's ZTR Alpha 340 - Crankbrothers Split QR skewer. 700gr. without skewer and lockring


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

urawildman said:


> I have put these wheels to a fair bit of mileage and like em. I was worried abt how soft these rims are, and my builder also mentioned it too.
> 
> I like the way they ride. I got up to 40kmh faster than previous wheelset(placebo?). They are not super stiff(rear) but its enough for me.



40 km/h faster?????
I want a set!!!


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I think the low cost hubs have their place but I will probably avoid them in the future.
I built some wheels using Circus Monkey hubs and the rear keeps breaking spokes.
I think it is because the holes in the flange are not finished well and have some sharp edges.
Also the flanges are very square with flat surfaces and sharp edges.
The White Industries hubs have canted flanges and round surfaces so I think are much better in this respect as well as just better overall quality.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

jnbrown said:


> I think the low cost hubs have their place but I will probably avoid them in the future.
> I built some wheels using Circus Monkey hubs and the rear keeps breaking spokes.
> I think it is because the holes in the flange are not finished well and have some sharp edges.
> Also the flanges are very square with flat surfaces and sharp edges.
> The White Industries hubs have canted flanges and round surfaces so I think are much better in this respect as well as just better overall quality.


Have to disagree on the CM hubs.

Mine are now over a year old, and I rebuilt a wheelset with the Stan's rims and old CM hubs. They have been completely trouble free. I'm 190# on a good day. Riding on quite crappy city roads.


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## urawildman (Aug 16, 2009)

@ cpark.. hahaha I knew someone would talk abt that. I REACHED 40kmh; sooner than my previous wheelset.

Thx Ligero, I like how the Baum rides. The alpha 340 are very nice(comfy) and fast on this setup


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

bikerjulio said:


> Have to disagree on the CM hubs.
> 
> Mine are now over a year old, and I rebuilt a wheelset with the Stan's rims and old CM hubs. They have been completely trouble free. I'm 190# on a good day. Riding on quite crappy city roads.


Glad they are working for you. Makes me wonder if mine are defective. The fact that the spokes broke right away seems suspicious and I have built quite a few wheels.


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 17, 2007)

First ride today with the new wheels. Sweet.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

@Wolf- Great looking build. I really like the hub color that you chose. Any ride report yet?


-Roland


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks. Just did a first short ride with them. They roll very sweet. 
You can move the wheels a couple of mm by hand at the brake pads (no play, just the movement of spokes/hoops ) , but you don't feel anything flexing during the ride. I did a couple of sprints and could feel no brake rub. 

I just came from the Mont Ventoux where I used a set of Campa Hyperon Ultras with Cult bearings and tubulars.
This set of wheels roll just as good except for the tyres, tubes roll smoother.. 
Have to break in the hubs of course, which always takes a while with Chris King.


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