# why head in lacing not popular?



## samh (May 5, 2004)

I have seen it only in the 3rd and 4th (last) picture, http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=188919&highlight=soul
but other companies don't do this. doesn't this create stiffest wheel?


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

samh said:


> doesn't this create stiffest wheel?


Yes, it does. Visually it's cleaner to lace the wheel with heads out - I'd imaging this is why you generally see wheels built this way.

A hub with very wide flanges would place the spokes in a similar position to heads-in - the Ligero SLW rear hub and Alchemy hubs both have wide flanges for this reason.


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## Kwantani (Sep 26, 2002)

not all spoke can be laced head-in. I was having hard time trying to laced head-in on wheelsmith spoke to a formula frt road hub. I gave up and laced it head out.
I heard Sapim spoke doesn't have this problem.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Kwantani said:


> not all spoke can be laced head-in. I was having hard time trying to laced head-in on wheelsmith spoke to a formula frt road hub. I gave up and laced it head out.
> I heard Sapim spoke doesn't have this problem.


This doesn't make any sense - on a normal crossed wheel you have a combination of heads-in and heads-out....any spoke can be laced in either direction.

Some hubs have flanges which are designed to be laced in one way - the Formula RB68 (if that is what you were using) is one of them.


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## Kwantani (Sep 26, 2002)

I know it should work. Yes it was RB68. I was looking at the pictures you posted here on the RB68 wheels a while ago and I try to lace it the same way. I've to manually bend the wheelsmith spoke head j-bend elbow a great deal just to fit it in the spoke hole barely, resulted the entire spoke greatly distorted before it enter the rim. I think wheelsmith elbow is too tiny to make it work.



Lab Worker said:


> This doesn't make any sense - on a normal crossed wheel you have a combination of heads-in and heads-out....any spoke can be laced in either direction.
> 
> Some hubs have flanges which are designed to be laced in one way - the Formula RB68 (if that is what you were using) is one of them.


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## otoman (Mar 8, 2004)

When Mike Garcia built me up a set of what have proven to be extremely reliable wheels, he said he always laces head out, because the spoke will have to bend around the hub flange with head in, creating a weak spot.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Assuming that the flange can handle it... Which almost any modern hub can, heads in/elbows out lacing builds far superior wheels.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

I think this is another example of bicycle lore which has almost no basis in fact. By my calculations the difference between the angles of the force vectors between heads in and heads out is very small.

I think the myth arose because of the naive assumption that a spoke works in pure tension and thus the "heads in" spoke is at a higher angle. Surely this would only be the case if the spoke head bend was incapable of supporting torque, but that is obviously not true. If the spoke bend supports torque, the actual force vector is between the rim nipple and the contact patch inside the spoke hole on the hub. The difference between the locations of the contact patches for heads in and heads out is 1-2mm, so the heads in wheel wil be 3-5% stiffer.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

From someone who actually measured it: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13% stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

In practice the front wheel is almost always stiffer than the rear (even with a lighter rim and/or fewer spokes) and it isn't a big deal any way you lace it.


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## OldSkoolFatGuy (Sep 6, 2007)

Next time I build a wheel I'm going to alternate between heads in and heads out for a radial laced front... :thumbsup:


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Kwantani said:


> I've to manually bend the wheelsmith spoke head j-bend elbow a great deal just to fit it in the spoke hole barely, resulted the entire spoke greatly distorted before it enter the rim. I think wheelsmith elbow is too tiny to make it work.


I actually like the dimensions of the Wheelsmith spokes... they really hug the flange. If you need to bend them, just do it... and be sure to stress relieve them well also.


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## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks for that, the illustration in the Rinard article shows that my assumption that the attitude of the elbow to the spoke hole would not be a contributing factor was incorrect.

Measurement trumps theory again.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

On a rear hub why aren't the driveside spokes all head in elbows out if it will increase the bracing angle? is there a rule of thumb as to what side of the drive side flange the pushing and pulling spokes are to be on?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

DS bracing angle is controlled by derailleur clearance. You might be able to lace heads in, if you do it 1x or radial... but that puts a lot of stress on the flange and also makes the NDS take the torque loads. The NDS has low tension and making it take torque loads could result in those spokes going slack... especially if it's a small diameter. 

The best "solution" is a hub that has the DS flange over as far as possible already... so you just have a bit if derailleur clearance when it's cross laced.


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## wvucyclist (Sep 6, 2007)

OldSkoolFatGuy said:


> Next time I build a wheel I'm going to alternate between heads in and heads out for a radial laced front... :thumbsup:


I've done that before for S&G, expect to turn the head out spoke nipples 1 or 2 turns more.

Ride on,
Gef


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

OldSkoolFatGuy said:


> Next time I build a wheel I'm going to alternate between heads in and heads out for a radial laced front... :thumbsup:


Specialized Sirrus bikes had front wheels laced like this for a few years. Looked kinda cool.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

cmg said:


> On a rear hub why aren't the driveside spokes all head in elbows out if it will increase the bracing angle? is there a rule of thumb as to what side of the drive side flange the pushing and pulling spokes are to be on?


You cannot lace more than 1x with all the spokes on one side. Because of that you would never be able to achieve optimal spoke angles at 1x. I, as well as others, often lace the DS on Poweertaps 1x elbows out. This is because PTs drive from the NDS. This lacing pattern works well because it increases the lateral rigidity of the wheel while still achieving a stiff wheel under power, assuming your doing the proper 2-3x on the NDS.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Zen Cyclery said:


> You cannot lace more than 1x with all the spokes on one side.


Sure you can, it is not easy but it can be done.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

A note on Powertap hubs... I did have an issue on one that I laced heads in with DB14 spokes (SL hub, Sram 10spd) where the derailleur hit the spokes. Had to use a 1mm spacer on the axle and the freehub. No issues with CX-Rays so far though... these do not stick out as far.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

I tried this method to improve clearance on a campy 11 speed cassette derailleur. Which worked. Originally I used dt aerolites 2x drive, but then decided to do dt comps 2x as I thought it would make the wheel more stiffer and responsive to pedalling and so on. Well it worked but since double butted spokes are thicker it cause the derailleur to get grazed by the outer spokes, which wasn't a problem with the thinner aerlites in the same lacing. so am I gonna be sorry for doing this with the bends on the inside and crossing close to the heads, if so I'm just gonna go back to the aerolites on the driveside in normal 2 cross, then sell them to get campy brand wheel.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

OldSkoolFatGuy said:


> Next time I build a wheel I'm going to alternate between heads in and heads out for a radial laced front... :thumbsup:


I built one front wheel like that. Didn't felt any difference and it just looked "strange" from the rider position. I told myself it was probably less aero (without any proof of that) and relaced it fully head out purely because of the look.

I usually have very little brake pad clearance so if there was any significant flex, I would know it.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm surprised that you had clearance issues with Campy. The DS offset is only 16mm on the H3 with the Campy setup, which should be plenty small.


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## ejprez (Nov 9, 2006)

I initially didn't with dt aerolites, but with dt comps there is way less clearance from the spokes, but with this lacing I did now, 2x with elbows in I can now use a disc cover with it on my TT bike, the rim is an edge/enve 1.68.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I have a pretty tall/fat flanged hub that lacing heads in results in the spoke hitting the flange pretty hard, and dents it. I half tensioned the wheel and decided that it looked like a bad idea.

I built another wheel with a lower flanged hub heads in, and it really is stiffer.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

I have two sets of wheels (Alchemy hubs) built with the head in/elbow out, and I have experienced clearance issues with the front wheel.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

If your Alchemy ELF front hub is laced radially or x1, their instructions say:
Wheel building notes:
- Radial and 1X patterns are OK for 16 through 28 hole hubs
- If using a radial or 1X pattern, always build heads out (elbows in)
http://www.alchemybicycleworks.com/Alchemy%20Elf%20front%20hub-062810.pdf



cpark said:


> I have two sets of wheels (Alchemy hubs) built with the head in/elbow out, and I have experienced clearance issues with the front wheel.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

The flange diameter is so wide on that hub that they suggest lacing elbows in because there are clearance issues with some forks. That being said I have only had 2 forks with clearance issues. These were both older forks with very round stays.


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## mtnbkr1 (Sep 20, 2011)

rruff said:


> A note on Powertap hubs... I did have an issue on one that I laced heads in with DB14 spokes (SL hub, Sram 10spd) where the derailleur hit the spokes. Had to use a 1mm spacer on the axle and the freehub. No issues with CX-Rays so far though... these do not stick out as far.


I'm looking to do a similar build. Alpha 340 28 H to PT SL+. Planning DS 1x heads DB14 12mm alloy nipples and NDS 2x Sapim Lasers 12mm alloy nipples. Shimano DA 7900. Any thoughts or concerns on clearance? Would you suggest 3x on the NDS or is 2x good? I'm 150 lbs.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

mtnbkr1 said:


> I'm looking to do a similar build. Alpha 340 28 H to PT SL+. Planning DS 1x heads DB14 12mm alloy nipples and NDS 2x Sapim Lasers 12mm alloy nipples. Shimano DA 7900. Any thoughts or concerns on clearance? Would you suggest 3x on the NDS or is 2x good? I'm 150 lbs.


Being that its a PT 2x works better on a 28 hole. The flange on those PT hubs is so large that spokes laced 3x on a 28 often exceed 90 degrees to the flange. Make sure to lace the DS elbows out/heads in. With that said that is the exact patter that I would have chosen for that build.


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