# How much is the bike vs. the legs



## jbinbi (Jan 7, 2013)

Maybe this should be in the racing forum, but I was thinking about this while watching the race 2 days where the time trialist won by himself leading most of the race himself. (sorry, forgot his name)

The club I ride with , fairly large club in New England probably has our best group doing 23mph average on a tight paceline.

This guy that won averaged like 28 mph BY HIMSELF. No one to draft with at all! And at times, he was doing like 35 mph continuous on flat grade.

I think the best I have ever done is 35 mph down a really steep hill!

Now I have a $2k specialized roubaix. Compact crank 50/34 , 10 spd cassette. Grand Prix tires at 90 psi.

If he rode my bike, what kind of numbers would he be getting. I don't think I have high enough gearing for him to do the 35 mph continuous on the flats, but would he be doing 28 mph continuously by himself , no draft, on the flats. (Say for 5 mi of no grade)

I had always believed Lance, who said its the legs, not the bike, but I don't know how much of which it is. Would he be 10% slower with my bike, which is about 70% faster than I could ever do, or would be it 50% slower. Just curious.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

If a pro rode your bike (assuming it fit him) he'd get around the same numbers. A compact with an 11-whatever cassette is still enough to cruise at 30mph plus. I think 100rpm in a 50x11 would be around 35mph...

Either way, it's not the bike that ever holds us back.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

jbinbi said:


> Maybe this should be in the racing forum, but I was thinking about this while watching the race 2 days where the time trialist won by himself leading most of the race himself. (sorry, forgot his name)
> 
> The club I ride with , fairly large club in New England probably has our best group doing 23mph average on a tight paceline.
> 
> ...


If your bike has an 11 tooth small cog on the cassette, Tony Martin could easily make it go 35+ on the flats. For like, maybe, forever. :wink:

Think back to stage 5, over the cobbles. Many of the Astana, Tinkoff, and OPQS guys were riding Roubaixs, instead of their usual Tarmacs or Venges, for the cobbles. Now, granted, they were running 53/39 cranks, not compacts, but they still averaged close to 28 for the stage. Over wet roads and cobbles. Your bike and its gearing isn't the reason why you can't average 28 for a 100 mile stage and maintain 35 on the flats. It's your engine. Lance is correct about that, at least.


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## jbinbi (Jan 7, 2013)

Pretty much figured that, which is why I am blown away by what these guys can do. When I can at best do 20ish mph with a 5 person draft (sustained for say a few miles), and these guys can do 30+ with NO draft for the same, its pretty damn humbling to me. And impressive.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

Alot the pros actually ran 55t big rings for the cobble stage. They'll also run a big ring like that for the flat classics races, flat stages sometimes, and TTs. That'll be coupled with an 11-23 or 25 too... Serious power.

I heard Tony Martin ran a 55-46 for the last TT in the Tour de Suisse... And that had a good amount of climbing in it.

But, regardless of their gearing, they're much, much, MUCH stronger than even a local Cat1. One of the guys that lives in state here and races for a continental team has a 5.2 w/kg FTP. He's an absolute monster, but he's still not nearly as monstrous as someone like Tony Martin.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> I don't think I have high enough gearing for him to do the 35 mph continuous on the flats,


The math says you think wrong, as guod noted. 100 rpm in 50x11 is 35 mph. 

Now keep in mind, it's all about power, and even those guys can't go 35 mph for very long on a flat windless ride. 25 takes less than half the power, however. But it's still way too fast for you and me.

He would hardly be slowed down at all by riding your bike. I'd be surprised if it made a 5% difference.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

The cutting edge, expensive bikes the pros use serve two main purposes: 1) usually they gain a very marginal advantage, 2) advertise for sponsors. With that said, it's mostly the latter.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

It's the legs. Your bike isn't holding you back at all.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

96.176% legs, 

3.824% bike


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Legs and Lungs
'Don't buy upgrades, Ride Up Grades' - Eddy Merckx

I'm a frigging 4 and can hold 30 plus mph on a flat in a fast paceline on my Steel MXL. My saturday ride is usually 30-32 unless there's a head wind and the 1s and 2s make attacks at that speed


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Read the book.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Mr645 said:


> 96.176% legs,
> 
> 3.824% bike


Not even...


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## keppler (May 25, 2007)

I recently acquired a steel frame and I put on some older (heavier) components and wheels. The bike weighs 21 lbs. My other bike is carbon and with newer and lighter components is 16 lbs. 

I noticed the heavier weight of my steel frame right off, and the wheels on it aren't that snappy either. But when I go over the same routes as the carbon bike (with the same gear ratios) I hit pretty much all the same speeds and rpm. 

The bikes feel completely different to ride, respond differently too, and I can tell I'm working a bit harder on the steel bike, but the the numbers are pretty much the same.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

jbinbi said:


> This guy that won averaged like 28 mph BY HIMSELF. No one to draft with at all! And at times, he was doing like 35 mph continuous on flat grade.





> Now I have a $2k specialized roubaix. Compact crank 50/34 , 10 spd cassette. Grand Prix tires at 90 psi.
> 
> If he rode my bike, what kind of numbers would he be getting. I don't think I have high enough gearing for him to do the 35 mph continuous on the flats, but would he be doing 28 mph continuously by himself , no draft, on the flats. (Say for 5 mi of no grade)


He'll be getting the same kind of numbers. Maybe a tad slower (like 0.2mph) since a Roubaix is more upright than a race bike. Weight only really matters when climbing/accelerating. Aerodynamics is way more important at speed. The biggest thing that affects aerodynamics is body position.

Also, if he really did 28mph by himself without a serious talewind he should probably line up for the tour de france next year.



Guod said:


> I heard Tony Martin ran a 55-46 for the last TT in the Tour de Suisse... And that had a good amount of climbing in it.


They do this to get a better chain line and make their drive train more efficient.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

1) 
Don't focus on speed too much. To quote the youtube "durian" rider: "Speed means facko!"

2)
to average 30 mph for 1 hr using a standard road bike would take a ridiculous amount of FTP, something along 500W. On TT bike decked out in full aero, maybe only possible by the top tour pros. Local club guy averaging 28 mph for 1 hr? not a chance.

3)
when it comes to these sort of steady and sustained threshold effort, it helps to have good genes, i.e., a good combination of type 1 and 2 muscle fibers, and unfortuntately we can't do much to change our genes. The other limiting factor that is somewhat trainable (and cheatable) is the nutrient delivery system (think fuel delivery system for your car). For practical purposes, it will be your nutrient delivery system will be the limiting factor. It's reason why a skinny guy like Froome can have such a huge FTP when guys like Kitel with huge legs do not. Also, your lungs will not be the limiting factor (assuming you have normal lungs) because human lungs are actually overbuilt compared to the nutrient delivery system.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

deviousalex said:


> Also, if he really did 28mph by himself without a serious talewind he should probably line up for the tour de france next year.


He was talking about Tony Martin's win last week. I think he will sign up for next year as this year is working out pretty good for him...


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

Pro's are powerful and fast. Last yea a LBS had Christian Vande Velde lead a ride from the shop. Along the beach in Fort Lauderdale we had a crazy headwind (Not uncommon) and I was regulated to 17 mph, all I could muster. Some of the fastest riders in South Florida, ride everyday, racers were riding with Christian at 24-25 into this wind. At some point Christian said he had to take off, get back to the shop with enough time to wash up and change so he could start signing autographs and promptly left the rest of the local fast guys behind. I am sure he could manage 30 mph for several miles with decent wind on flat terrain.. Here is him signing his R5 before the raffle to give it away.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Winn said:


> He was talking about Tony Martin's win last week. I think he will sign up for next year as this year is working out pretty good for him...


Where does it say the he averaged 28? My calculations say 25.4. I know that's only 2.6mph but the power required to make that difference is huge.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

jbinbi said:


> This guy that won averaged *like* 28 mph BY HIMSELF. No one to draft with at all! And at times, he was doing *like* 35 mph continuous on flat grade.





deviousalex said:


> Where does it say the he averaged 28? My calculations say 25.4. I know that's only 2.6mph but the power required to make that difference is huge.


I'm not sure the original post was intended to be an accurate race report. I certainly made no representations of anything other than at the time of the op I assumed he was talking about Tony Martin. I think the guy was just trying to say that the rider was going like really fast. He was by the way...


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## DBT (Oct 31, 2008)

It is all about the bike. We all know Lance Armstrong to be a liar.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Winn said:


> I'm not sure the original post was intended to be an accurate race report. I certainly made no representations of anything other than at the time of the op I assumed he was talking about Tony Martin. I think the guy was just trying to say that the rider was going like really fast. He was by the way...


I suspect "averaged 28" translates to: "at times he was going 28mph for like 30 seconds".

Get a power meter or borrow one. Try to see what sort of power you can hit. You can also do a ride uphill, say 8% or so, and just estimate based on time. This is independent of the bike to large degree, especially if you already have Roubaix. Compare the number to pros. You will be amazed at the difference.

Bike can make 1% here and there. In other words, pros on your Roubaix may be 1% slower, maybe just about the same. You on their bikes may be 1% faster, but probably about the same.

You can make some difference in aerodynamics by riding in the drops, bending your elbows, tucking your head in, and lowering your handlebars some (slam that stem). But for the most part, it's the legs.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

jbinbi said:


> Maybe this should be in the racing forum, but I was thinking about this while watching the race 2 days where the time trialist won by himself leading most of the race himself. (sorry, forgot his name)
> 
> The club I ride with , fairly large club in New England probably has our best group doing 23mph average on a tight paceline.
> 
> ...





55x11 said:


> I suspect "averaged 28" translates to: "at times he was going 28mph for like 30 seconds".
> 
> Get a power meter or borrow one. Try to see what sort of power you can hit. You can also do a ride uphill, say 8% or so, and just estimate based on time. This is independent of the bike to large degree, especially if you already have Roubaix. Compare the number to pros. You will be amazed at the difference.
> 
> ...


Seriously why is everyone quoting me? I have no interest in a power meter and I am certainly not claiming to be as fast as Tony Martin


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## kini (Feb 19, 2010)

The fast Kona Ironman guys average close to 27mph, solo, no drafting for 112 miles. Usually plenty of wind and always plenty of heat and humidity. 

They most certainly could go faster if they knew they didn't have to run a marathon after they were done.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

TT bikes save about 30-35% of your energy.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Tony wore a skin suit that day, he knew he was going to be going hard with little help


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## jbinbi (Jan 7, 2013)

55x11 said:


> I suspect "averaged 28" translates to: "at times he was going 28mph for like 30 seconds".
> 
> 
> 
> You can make some difference in aerodynamics by riding in the drops, bending your elbows, tucking your head in, and lowering your handlebars some (slam that stem). But for the most part, it's the legs.


No. I am the op. I think he, Tony martin averaged like 28 for the 170 km. They showed at a time he was on the flats doing 35 for several minutes.

I was not ev r thinking I could get close to these speeds by using a much more expensive bike. I was marveling at how fast the riders go not only compared to me but also to really good club ridrrs drafting, and wondering how much improvement they get from the bike.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Guod said:


> Alot the pros actually ran 55t big rings for the cobble stage. They'll also run a big ring like that for the flat classics races, flat stages sometimes, and TTs. That'll be coupled with an 11-23 or 25 too... Serious power.
> 
> I heard Tony Martin ran a 55-46 for the last TT in the Tour de Suisse... And that had a good amount of climbing in it.
> 
> But, regardless of their gearing, they're much, much, MUCH stronger than even a local Cat1. One of the guys that lives in state here and races for a continental team has a 5.2 w/kg FTP. He's an absolute monster, but he's still not nearly as monstrous as someone like Tony Martin.


The slow pedaling the guys were using on the cobbles last week was curious. 55 tooth big ring! Purposely turning the cranks in high gears at quite low cadences, 70 rpms!, gives them more control. Spinning fast while bouncing over brutally rough tarmac would be really difficult. The bike would be going all over the place.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

only when comparing TT bike position (in skinsuit with TT helmet) with relatively upright road bike with large head tube.

Lower handlebars, bend your elbows while in the drops and you can be almost as aero - most of those gains are eliminated from position.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Don't forget the tummy.... or lack thereof, especially for hill climbing.

One important aspect is just putting hours in on the road, and heading up into the hills. 

A casual cyclist may be lucky to put in 100 to 200 miles a week. I have no doubt many of the pros are hitting 500 miles a week, perhaps some are doing quite a bit more, as well as other exercises and fitness training.

As far as Armstrong, he apparently forgot to mention his belief in Legs *PLUS the best drugs money can buy*.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

> This guy that won averaged like 28 mph BY HIMSELF. No one to draft with at all! And at times, he was doing like 35 mph continuous on flat grade.


From the default parameters on analytic cycling a ballpark wattage for 28mph would be 350W while 35mph would be around 650W at sea level. Rider position makes this pretty grey but, form my experience I think these are close enough.

These wattage numbers have nearly zero to do with the bike. This assumes the same fit. IMO/E way too many guys put far too much faith and hope in finding shortcuts for fitness (speed). This guy probably has some natural ability/history and is training smart while logging some serious time.


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## jbinbi (Jan 7, 2013)

woodys737 said:


> This guy probably has some natural ability/history and is training smart while logging some serious time.


Considering he won the Tour stage by himself, leading for like 130km all by himself, I would agree, I think not only does he have some natural ability, but probably is training smart while logging serious time.;-) Even if you finish last in the Tour, I think the above still applies to you.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

jbinbi said:


> Considering he won the Tour stage by himself, leading for like 130km all by himself, I would agree, I think not only does he have some natural ability, but probably is training smart while logging serious time.;-) Even if you finish last in the Tour, I think the above still applies to you.


climbing up Mt Palomar (San Diego's Huez) and turning myself inside out trying to keep it as close to 10 mph as I could I was passed by team Telekom going easily half again as fast as I was and they were chatting. Erik Zabel slowed, complimented my bike and continued on.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

atpjunkie said:


> I was passed by team Telekom going easily half again as fast as I was and they were chatting.


Did you take a close look at how stick figure thin those riders were?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

jbinbi said:


> Considering he won the Tour stage by himself, leading for like 130km all by himself, I would agree, I think not only does he have some natural ability, but probably is training smart while logging serious time.;-) Even if you finish last in the Tour, I think the above still applies to you.


****. I read your op thinking you were talking about someone on your club.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

jbinbi said:


> No. I am the op. I think he, *Tony martin averaged like 28 for the 170 km*. They showed at a time he was on the flats doing 35 for several minutes.
> 
> I was not ev r thinking I could get close to these speeds by using a much more expensive bike. I was marveling at how fast the riders go not only compared to me but also to really good club ridrrs drafting, and wondering how much improvement they get from the bike.


You must be refering to Stage 9, 170 km long, where Tony Martin pretty much time trialed himself to take victory. On this stage, his overall speed average was almost 40.9 km/h, which calculates to about 25.5 mph. He did not average 28 mph over 170 km, which would have been insane considering it was not a totally flat stage.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> ****. I read your op thinking you were talking about someone on your club.


Hah me too. That's why I said the comment about lining up for the TdF.


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