# Stupid LBS Tricks



## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

While out running some errands today I stopped by a bike shop a few towns away - needed a new pair of Shimano cleats.

Now, I know I can find 'em a few bucks cheaper than the $24.95 list price on-line but I got some new shoes yesterday and want to ride with the tomorrow. I figure the shop deserves the full $24.95, for being there, paying rent, being open, having stock, etc.

However I was not prepared to find the cleats marked with a pricetag reading $34.99. He immediately dropped the price when I said "C'mon I don't mind paying list price... but list price on these is $24.95."

Now you can easily find these for $17 online, so this guy is making the impression that LBS prices are robbery look even worse. 

Bonehead.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

The LBS is not at fault.

They have a right to charge above list if they so choose, and they would NOT be ripping off the consumer. Doesn't the consumer have a responsibility to be informed before making a purchase?

I'm inclined to think most people don't price shop before making smaller purchases such as cleats. I'd almost consider it an impulse buy; you sorta walk in to a shop, ask for the item, and pay without even thinking about it. Tubes, handlebar tape; same idea.

One question I have for you is, how do you know LIST price? Are you assuming a price you see on the internet is list or is it expressly identified as such on the web site you visited? Remember, your LBS has overhead costs that the web site does not have. It's unfair to compare the two.


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

I almost never shop at LBSs any more, except for situations such as this. I think you handeled it well, dont let LBSs rip you off too many of them will try and try again.

There is a family owned LBS around me that is barely surviving, I have been in there numerous times chatting with the owner buying his old junk frames (I restore and collect old bikes). I have told him numerous times to lower his obscene prices and business would pick up significantly, but the guy is a clueless typical townie with no business sense to speak of. 

Its usualy the small shops that are struggling to survive that have to rip their customers off, honestly I kind of feal bad for them. Its when they get pushy and bitter that I allude to how much business they are loosing to the internet.


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

I guess it's like going into any other store. You have to know your prices ahead of time!


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

Peter P. said:


> One question I have for you is, how do you know LIST price? Are you assuming a price you see on the internet is list or is it expressly identified as such on the web site you visited? Remember, your LBS has overhead costs that the web site does not have. It's unfair to compare the two.


I looked it up before leaving the house. MSRP = $24.95, readily available for $17.

They can of course charge whatever they like, but I just think it's silly to make the gulf between LBS and web prices look even wider than it should be.


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## ecub (Sep 2, 2011)

Not only LBS, but allot of other specialty stores do it that have a hold in the area. They prey on the not so internet savy customers or being the only specialty store in the area.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2012)

RJP Diver said:


> I looked it up before leaving the house. MSRP = $24.95, readily available for $17.
> 
> They can of course charge whatever they like, but I just think it's silly to make the gulf between LBS and web prices look even wider than it should be.


This is part of why when I need or want an item same-day, or purchase things like clothes or shoes I want to try on first, I don't usually shop in local bike shops (read: small/independetly owned). I shop at my _local_ bike shop (read: a large internet vendor with well over 100 physical storefronts nationwide, one of which happens to be 400 meters from my apartment) They usually have only slightly prices compared to what I can find online (not double), and if for some reason my bike isn't rideable due to something I can't easily fix myself I can just walk it over... 

It's hard for smaller shops to compete with the convenience of a cheap chain store like Perfomance Bike, or Amazon Prime (which usually arrives at my place next business day with free "two-day" shipping)


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## thirstyman (May 6, 2007)

price is one thing but what I find really annoying on out-of stock items is when they tell you they will have it in 3 days(and get your order on that basis) and then finally get it in 10-11 days. Why am a paying the LBS premium again?


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I could understand their right to upcharge, but holy **** I'd never pay $35 for cleats period. I'd just eat the money uncooked.


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## SevensRacer (Dec 14, 2011)

The other day, I was looking for a derailleur hanger for my road bike, as the current one broke. One local lbs charged around $40 while another charged $30. I looked online and found the derailleur hanger I needed for just $6 (brand new and includes shipping).

In most cases, you are better off buying somewhere else other than your local lbs. On the other hand, when it comes to major repairs, the local lbs is the place to go to.


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## Spanky_88007 (Aug 28, 2008)

I price things online then usually head to the LBS after realizing that I wouldn't save a whole heck of a lot buying online after having to pay for shipping. And then realizing all the free bike adjustments I get, free small parts I get, discounts on this and that for being a loyal customer for 10 years... Yeah, I buy some things online, of course. But on small stuff I really don't mind paying 5 or 10 bucks extra because they take care of me as far as service after the sale. 

The moral of the story - I'll pay a little bit more for awesome service. I've been in retail for as long as I've been cycling and markup is just part of business. Are the guys at the LBS supposed to have the buying power of the online/big box bike stores that enables them to have "everyday low prices"? The shop charges what it feels it needs to to survive, and many are barely surviving. It's not a story that's unique to bike shops. Many brick and mortars/mom and pops all over the country are going under, and really good service is going with them. I'd take them and their higher prices over the low prices, low service, low satisfaction types of establishments, TYVM. For what it's worth, I've worked at big box retailers, and I openly admit that customer service is not of the same caliber as what you'd find at a small, local place.


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## PainCake (May 29, 2010)

I'm with Spanky on this. Sometimes I will just suck it up and its worth it. I have no patience. I need a taller rear cassette not a week from now. Recently I needed my bars lowered on a new bike I purchased somewhere else. I take it to the LBS, they cut the steerer tube, get me a new headset and everything is perfect. I could have done it myself and saved some money . . . or not. Cut my carbon steerer tube? New headset? Pulling out of my driveway and running into a tree?


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## L_Johnny (Jul 15, 2006)

The is a lbs that doesn't put prices on anything. Whenever I stop by I usually only buy stuff I know the going prices for. I don't mind paying a bit north of msrp if I really need the item in a pinch. However I get the akward feeling from the demeanor of the owner that he is always sizing you up to see how much to charge. It is a very small shop, which I would give more biz, if not for the aforementioned fact.


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## ialex2005i (Jan 10, 2012)

I had a good experience today. My LBS matched internet pricing on a Giro Prolight! I think it of course varies by store.


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## walrus (Jan 29, 2004)

When I bought my bike it came with a "free" 60 day tuneup. Came in to pick it up and they wanted $40 for new brake pads. Didn't ask before they replaced them, and there is no way they were even slightly worn that soon. I guess most people don't know any better.


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm with Spanky too. I'll shop online to be famaliar with what the prices are - but make an effort to support my LBS. I'm from MN and used to get everything from my LBS- With them knowing I was always coming back, they would help me out on the price knocking 10-15% off for me. Even now, 6 years later after moving to Hawaii, I still use my LBS in MN - I just bought a bike in MN over Christmas and brought it back to HI with me. The reason is they haver great service! 

Now, the LBSs in HI are a totally different story. It's an island, there's not a lot to choose from, where else are you going to go? - (except online, but you can't get your bike repaired online) -The upside, I've learned to do all my own wrenching. Most bike shops here sell bikes, boards, roller blades, etc - because they can't survive on bikes alone. Unfortunately, the "bike" and customer service is garbage. Only in extreme case swhile I go to the bike shops here- I've just had to many poor experiences with them to waste my time. For any Bike Shop owners out there reading - from this consumer: Customer Service goes a long ways... I support my LBS 4,000 miles away because they have their act together, I avoid the place down the street because they are clueless.


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## Dresden (May 26, 2009)

One time I was looking at sweatcatcher(I don't remember what brand) that had the list price printed on the label. The bike shop had stuck a price sticker on it that was higher than the one printed on the label. You'd think they would have at least stuck it over the printed price.


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## Milk-Bone (Jul 10, 2011)

RJP Diver said:


> While out running some errands today I stopped by a bike shop a few towns away - needed a new pair of Shimano cleats.
> 
> Now, I know I can find 'em a few bucks cheaper than the $24.95 list price on-line but I got some new shoes yesterday and want to ride with the tomorrow. I figure the shop deserves the full $24.95, for being there, paying rent, being open, having stock, etc.
> 
> ...



Simple solution, vote with your wallet. I do when I'm in the midst of price gougers. When a merchant does crap like this they are politely telling me my money is not good in their establishment and I walk out. Ultimately these tactics hurt the business and the owner shoots himself in the foot using them. Good riddance when they go belly up.

I must say my LBS is very competitive with prices. On a few items I bought they were actually cheaper than on-line. I was in the same situation with Shimano cleats. I blew one out and ordered the $17 ones on eBay, yes original factory sealed Shimano. And I also went to the LBS the next day to get a pair and they were $21 so I bought a pair from them as well so I could ride immediately. I now have a spare pair. Had they tried the $34 crap I would have taken a couple days off from riding because I wouldn't have bought them. To put things into perspective, if an on-line seller can sell them for $17 and still make a profit, it only makes you wonder what they paid for them?

I love my LBS!!!


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

PainCake said:


> I'm with Spanky on this. Sometimes I will just suck it up and its worth it. I have no patience. I need a taller rear cassette not a week from now. Recently I needed my bars lowered on a new bike I purchased somewhere else. I take it to the LBS, they cut the steerer tube, get me a new headset and everything is perfect. I could have done it myself and saved some money . . . or not. Cut my carbon steerer tube? New headset? Pulling out of my driveway and running into a tree?


It's really not that hard. First time I cut my own steerer tube (carbon) and replaced my own headset, I didn't run into a tree. Nothing else happened either except for a nice long bike ride.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm staggered!

I work in bike retail and have done for almost 20 years. In that time I have never seen a price marked up intentionally above RRP. It doesn't happen her in the UK at all, probably because there is always an alternative store within a short distance.

As for pricing up over an already displayed price, that is illegal in the UK. You have to go to the trouble of removing the original price before putting a higher price. Carries a £2000 fine per item if you don't and Trading Standards find it.


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## bwwROADBIKE (Sep 10, 2011)

rose.johnp said:


> I'm with Spanky too. I'll shop online to be famaliar with what the prices are - but make an effort to support my LBS. I'm from MN and used to get everything from my LBS- With them knowing I was always coming back, they would help me out on the price knocking 10-15% off for me. Even now, 6 years later after moving to Hawaii, I still use my LBS in MN - I just bought a bike in MN over Christmas and brought it back to HI with me. The reason is they haver great service!
> 
> Now, the LBSs in HI are a totally different story. It's an island, there's not a lot to choose from, where else are you going to go? - (except online, but you can't get your bike repaired online) -The upside, I've learned to do all my own wrenching. Most bike shops here sell bikes, boards, roller blades, etc - because they can't survive on bikes alone. Unfortunately, the "bike" and customer service is garbage. Only in extreme case swhile I go to the bike shops here- I've just had to many poor experiences with them to waste my time. For any Bike Shop owners out there reading - from this consumer: Customer Service goes a long ways... I support my LBS 4,000 miles away because they have their act together, I avoid the place down the street because they are clueless.


rose, i'm in MN too. Just curious, what shop in MN do you use?


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## quickfeet18 (Mar 2, 2007)

Though there are a few bad apples (just with any specialty retailers) most LBS are just trying to make a decent living. You cannot compare internet prices to LBS prices accurately. You say they have cleats for 17 online, most LBS will should charge 33.99 for the sh-11 road cleats, which is Shimano's advertised MSRP by the way. I have worked in shops for the better part of a decade and I can tell you that those cleats online are under what the LBS wholesale is! I just want to know how you think a business can survive if they have to sell everything at a loss?

The problem is not the LBS it is the Internet grey market that is ruining small business. There are many tiers of cast in the cycling industry and a Performance Bike is going to be able to buy thousands if not hundreds of thousands more pairs of those cleats, so obviously they are going to get a better deal, not to mention that Performance is a Shimano importer direct.

What this creates is a false sense that the LBS is trying to screw everyone when what is actually going on is that the LBS is trying to make a reasonable living. Next time you go to your LBS take a look around, do you see any BMWs or Rolexes? No? It's because no one is getting fabulously wealthy off selling bikes.

Anyone who actually understands how the bike industry works will support the quality, customer service oriented shops because it is the right thing to do to ensure this quirky industry continues to exist. If some here get their way, soon the only way to get a tube the same day will be to shop from Wal Mart.


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## ARE. (Jul 29, 2011)

Another advantage that online retailers have that nobody seems to be considering is that they don't have to mark up their prices high enough to compensate for the discount everyone expects from the LBS.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

There's really no excuse for charging _more_ than MSRP. MSRPs are made to be discounted.


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## dawgless (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm with Spanky and rose.john. I will support my LBS, primarily because it's a PITA to purchase anything online and then return it, if necessary. Ordering items that need to be sized before purchase is just plain stupid to do online. I, for one, wouldn't have the cojones to walk into a shop, ask them to size me up for shoes, jersey's, whatnot, and then walk out without buying and then order online. People who do this can almost be considered thieves. 

Sure, if it's items like cleats, and you don't need to be riding anytime in the near future, and you can get them cheaper online, go for it. But in the long run, the shop that you purchase multiple items from is more apt to help on pricing, rather than if you only purchase minimally from them.


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

walrus said:


> When I bought my bike it came with a "free" 60 day tuneup. Came in to pick it up and they wanted $40 for new brake pads. Didn't ask before they replaced them, and there is no way they were even slightly worn that soon. I guess most people don't know any better.


WHAT!!!!? $40 new pads after 60days on a free tune up, I would flip my sh!t! and have the idiot charging me fired, threaten to report them to the BBB, spread the word and make sure they loose business over this, thats some serious BS :mad2:.

Where is this awesome shop?


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I won't support my LBS. I avoid them like the plague, but then again I have about 2 grand in tools and another 3-4 grand in new parts to replace anything that breaks. 

I don't trust someone else working on my bikes and I know from experience I'll pay at least 50% more for parts from a bike shop. 

Same thing with clothes. I know my size and have extra shorts, shoes, cleats bought new ready to replace anything that needs to be replaced. I also don't trust a bike shop to size me. They can't hardly get that right either.


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## wannaberoadie (Nov 28, 2011)

I'd love to support an LBS, but they never seem to have what I want in stock; makes it kind of difficult.


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## daniell (Apr 12, 2002)

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a law in my state. If the retailer wants to charge above list, he must make the consumer aware of the list price.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

There are a handful of great shops around here in Seattle. My personal favorite is Montlake. They aren't exactly cheap, but the have lots of stuff in stock from new accessories to random bike giblets. The fact that they will work with me on a $100 sale or a $0.75 sale and they almost always have exactly what I want, and I never am made to feel like I am wasting their time, is why I keep going back to them, and will probably be making my next big ticket purchase there.


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

I could see paying that markup if they installed the cleats on your shoes, and/or you were in a pinch and needed a new pair for a race, tour, or other event coming up.

The global economy is hard on LBS's, especially in small or medium markets where there just isn't a high enough volume for sustainable profits.

DISCLAIMER: I don't work at a bike shop but I try to get my friends to shop there.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

velocanman said:


> I could see paying that markup if they installed the cleats on your shoes, and/or you were in a pinch and needed a new pair for a race, tour, or other event coming up.
> 
> The global economy is hard on LBS's, especially in small or medium markets where there just isn't a high enough volume for sustainable profits.
> 
> DISCLAIMER: I don't work at a bike shop but I try to get my friends to shop there.


installing the cleats is a different matter (a whole 2 minutes different matter) but why should I pay an extra premium because I was "in a pinch"? sounds like a bunch of bottom feeding to me. 
Just post the price and stick with it. If people that have seen prices somewhere else gets a break and I get a break because I am on the same group rides as the shop owner, there's absolutely zero credibility and the everyone could and should have the feeling of being cheated.


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## chickenfried (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup they have a right to charge whatever the hell they want. But the consumer isn't doing anything wrong either when they decide to shop elsewhere.

The problems of running a LBS are no more my problem than the reasons I can't afford the $6000 wonder bike in the window their problem.




Peter P. said:


> The LBS is not at fault.
> 
> They have a right to charge above list if they so choose, and they would NOT be ripping off the consumer. Doesn't the consumer have a responsibility to be informed before making a purchase?


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

den bakker said:


> installing the cleats is a different matter (a whole 2 minutes different matter) but why should I pay an extra premium because I was "in a pinch"? sounds like a bunch of bottom feeding to me.
> Just post the price and stick with it. If people that have seen prices somewhere else gets a break and I get a break because I am on the same group rides as the shop owner, there's absolutely zero credibility and the everyone could and should have the feeling of being cheated.


I think we are both correct. 

If you feel like you are being cheated then you certainly have the right not to pay their prices. The shop also has the right to charge what they need to stay in business. It's part of the free market that we benefit from in a democracy.

However, I don't understand your issue with the LBS giving a discount to bike club members. That is a very common practice and is akin to advocacy and sustainment of the sport. It's also good marketing for the shop and club. Join the club, save some cash at the LBS. (Speaking of which, the prices might be inflated to make back that discount. Again, the LBS's prerogative).


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

velocanman said:


> I think we are both correct.
> 
> If you feel like you are being cheated then you certainly have the right not to pay their prices. The shop also has the right to charge what they need to stay in business. It's part of the free market that we benefit from in a democracy.


how democracy was relevant to this is left to the reader to find out. 


velocanman said:


> However, I don't understand your issue with the LBS giving a discount to bike club members. That is a very common practice and is akin to advocacy and sustainment of the sport. It's also good marketing for the shop and club. Join the club, save some cash at the LBS. (Speaking of which, the prices might be inflated to make back that discount. Again, the LBS's prerogative).


if never said the group ride had anything to do with a specific club or the shop.....
but you are right prices are often inflated so people can feel like they make an awesome deal. 

to be clear: 
LBSs can do whatever they want, just don't be surpriced when some tell them to suck it and buy online instead because their pricing is not transparent by a long shot. 
Club discounts are transparent, they are documented and it is known what the requirements are to obtain them. With some searching around at least. Now in the case of the OP, the price was 40% over MSRP, what club deal gives that kind of discount?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I do see why people get so bent out of shape, all those wealthy shops and fat cat shop employees ripping off the little man just trying to get by in an expensive world, er hobby


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

velocanman said:


> I think we are both correct.
> 
> If you feel like you are being cheated then you certainly have the right not to pay their prices. The shop also has the right to charge what they need to stay in business. *It's part of the free market that we benefit from in a democracy.*
> 
> However, I don't understand your issue with the LBS giving a discount to bike club members. That is a very common practice and is akin to advocacy and sustainment of the sport. It's also good marketing for the shop and club. Join the club, save some cash at the LBS. (Speaking of which, the prices might be inflated to make back that discount. Again, the LBS's prerogative).


If this were a free market, most people would spend a majority of their income on food, and would be riding the old schwinn gathering dust in the basement; as a primary means of transportation, mind you, not as a sport.

Just sayin.


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## ARE. (Jul 29, 2011)

High turnover versus high markup is a concept some shops don't seem to grasp (assuming they would even have enough volume to employ this strategy). However, to those of you who talk about markup over MSRP being akin to criminal, you do understand what the "S" in the acronym stands for, right?


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## jammer (Apr 8, 2004)

I just want to say that I just feel sorry for hose folks that hav shitty LBS's. I know I expect to pay a bit more when I buy locally, but I know that money gets spent locally and also helps support local bike racing and bike related interest.


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## saleenboy818 (Aug 29, 2011)

Happened to me as well. Exact same thing. New shoes wanted cleats over priced.


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## Rustyrus (Nov 21, 2011)

I rarely have to ask for a discount or price match. 

Special ordered a pair of Sidi Ergo 3's.......MSRP was 499. I walked out the door at 467 with tax and these aren't really even on shelves yet. 

I buy everything from this shop though. Special orders close yadda yadda yadda. If I see a cheaper price somewhere and they don't automatically lower it I ask them to match and they do every time. 


Build a good relationship with the LBS people and you should never pay above MSRP if MSRP at all.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

As a point of reference the cleats in question cost about 17 wholesale through big name parts houses that sell to IBD's.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

100% markup is pretty standard for accessories and components.


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## quickfeet18 (Mar 2, 2007)

You are outta your mind if you think that is what markup for a bike shop is. Tubes may be the only thing in a normal shop marked up that high. Clearly you never worked in the industry at all.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

quickfeet18 said:


> You are outta your mind if you think that is what markup for a bike shop is. Tubes may be the only thing in a normal shop marked up that high. Clearly you never worked in the industry at all.


Clearly you are a real smarty pants. I said accessories and components, like cleats and things like that. For example:

Shimano SPD - SL cleats MSRP is $37 dealer cost is $18.25 out of the quality catalog. And someone still has to pay to get em shipped.

$37 is the list price, as in, the price listed.


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## quickfeet18 (Mar 2, 2007)

I am sorry I made a mistake with the word markup, we usually refer to profit margin. Using the word markup is misleading in the sense that it sounds like the LBS is gouging every customer. A more accurate phrase for a shop is profit margin, in this case the cleats are about 50%. At the end of the day a shop is lucky to make about 10% of its net profit.

So after selling the cleats, fitting them (which most good shops will), and chit chatting with the customer (because we take the time to get to know the people who shop with us) we pulled about $1.83 before any sort of team and or club discount. You'd have to sell a lot of cleats to make any real money. 

Honestly the vast majority of shops are not trying to gouge you, they are trying to put food on the table and work a job that is enjoyable. I am sorry that a lot of people have had a bad experience with their LBS. I wish a few bad apples would not tarnish the whole lot of us.


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## e39540is (Apr 10, 2009)

I try to buy from my LBS as much as I can. I have been buying from them for years, and send many customers to them. They know that, and I never have had to ask for a discount, but they give it to me anyway.

To me its a win/win. I give them my business, as well as send them customers, and I get a discount in return. Even with the discount, most of the time, I am paying a little more then internet prices, but I am glad to do it. For all the times that they have let me use a tool, or fixed something without charging me. I also cant count the times, that I have needed some piddly little part for an older bike, and they just give it to me.

Find the LBS you like, and support them, and it will get better. If the guy is sizing you up, and marking up on the fly to see if you will pay it, he does not have very good business sense, or his ego is way to big. Go somewhere else.


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## Elpimpo (Jan 16, 2012)

PhotonFreak said:


> This is part of why when I need or want an item same-day, or purchase things like clothes or shoes I want to try on first, I don't usually shop in local bike shops (read: small/independetly owned). I shop at my _local_ bike shop (read: a large internet vendor with well over 100 physical storefronts nationwide, one of which happens to be 400 meters from my apartment) They usually have only slightly prices compared to what I can find online (not double), and if for some reason my bike isn't rideable due to something I can't easily fix myself I can just walk it over...
> 
> It's hard for smaller shops to compete with the convenience of a cheap chain store like Perfomance Bike, or Amazon Prime (which usually arrives at my place next business day with free "two-day" shipping)


Im with PhotonFreak on this one. 

Especially if you live in California, there are Trek superstores (that carry more than just trek), bicycle warehouses, performance bike etc....

These larger, chain, mainly online or have tons of stores, and they almost always have right around web prices. 

Don't get me wrong, you won't always get professional help. So I only go here to save money on things I want right away. And they don't always have what you want. I use local mom & pops when either: 

A: I need a bike fit/re-fit/adjustment - Most chain stores lack experience here, and you CANT fit a bike online.

B: Am on a ride and want to socialize.

C: Am on a ride and need consumables.

D: need some high-end wearables. i.e. pearl izumi PRO, ASSOS, Giordana, & high end castelli. Believe it or not, LBS's sell more low-mid grade apparel so their high-end stuff is usually discounted as its been sitting there for so long (edit: unless you live in an affluent neighborhood) But this only applies to certain small shops and you have to shop around. i just got a P.I. PRO intercool bib short for $90 simply because they didn't have my size in the 'elite' version (elite retails for 125)


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm lucky, I have 4 bike shops in my area, 2 are great and give fantastic service and prices.....and the other two are good...not much discount but good people.

I buy from all 5.......the four stores and the internet.


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

velocanman said:


> I could see paying that markup if they installed the cleats on your shoes, and/or you were in a pinch and needed a new pair for a race, tour, or other event coming up.
> 
> *The global economy is hard on LBS's, especially in small or medium markets where there just isn't a high enough volume for sustainable profits.
> *
> DISCLAIMER: I don't work at a bike shop but I try to get my friends to shop there.


Diversify. :thumbsup:


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

quickfeet18 said:


> I am sorry I made a mistake with the word markup, we usually refer to profit margin. Using the word markup is misleading in the sense that it sounds like the LBS is gouging every customer. A more accurate phrase for a shop is profit margin, in this case the cleats are about 50%. At the end of the day a shop is lucky to make about 10% of its net profit.
> 
> So after selling the cleats, fitting them (which most good shops will), and chit chatting with the customer (because we take the time to get to know the people who shop with us) we pulled about $1.83 before any sort of team and or club discount. You'd have to sell a lot of cleats to make any real money.
> 
> Honestly the vast majority of shops are not trying to gouge you, they are trying to put food on the table and work a job that is enjoyable. I am sorry that a lot of people have had a bad experience with their LBS. I wish a few bad apples would not tarnish the whole lot of us.


ehhh, the word markup is not misleading, sorry if you misinterpreted the meaning. I actually think you are mis-using the term "profit margin". But anyway yeah, at $25 for those cleats the LBS probably didn't make any money on that sale, and that was a gift to keep a good customer coming back.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I hate LBS's. 

I understand that it's hard or impossible for small independent ones to make a living.....but that is not my fault, as I did not tell them to choose that business. (I'd love to own a good shop...but I realize that such a venture would be foolhardy).

In my experience, back when I lived on Long Island and NYC, every LBS I visited was a clip joint. If they couldn't sell you a $3K bike (or rather, a $2K bike priced at $3K)...then they'd try and sell you some $99 department-store-esque POS which they had marked up...or rather "on sale" for "only $799".

I bought a chain tool once at the local LBS...it broke the first time I used it! It was a piece of junk....but it cost [I think it was] just south of $24. 

Never had a good experience at an LBS- always ferlt like nothing more than a pigeon whose presence in the store was just an opportunity for some sleazy former used-car salesman to try and sell me some very-overpriced crap.....and if I wasn't interested in their $3K Cannondales or buying a collection of overpriced kids bikes for the kids I don't have...then they had no interest in me.

Luckily, now, in the rural area where I live, the nearest LBS is an hour away....so I just accept the fact that I am on my own and don't even have to be tempted. I buy my stuff online (including my bike) and do my own repairs and maintenance (Bikes are simple and easy to work on- there's nothing you can't learn to do- especially today, thanks to the internet and youtube- and usually, just basic tools will suffice and you can often improvise). 

I'm sure there may be some good LBS's- especially in places where there are lots of cyclists- shops that are competent and honest...and where one wouldn't mind paying a few extra bucks for the convenience and service...but I've nev er seen such a shop.

Oh yeah, and most of crummy LBS's.....even long before the advent of the internet, didn't seem to last very long. In most places, there just aren't enough serious cyclists to support a shop (even a good one)....and it's been my experience that the general public feels as i do about LBS's- i.e. they feel like pigeons whose sole purpose is to be plucked. 

To the general public, the LBS serves no purpose. Why spend a few hundred bucks at the LBS for a bike for a child when you can get the same thing at Wal*Mart for $99? And obviously, the general public is not going to be buying $2K Trek.....so for most, the LBS is not of interest....and for the rest of us, the LBS often makes itself odious, so as to not even be of interest to us, as much as we'd like it to be.

I think the day of the LBS is coming to an end- except perhaps for places like NYC and San Francisco and some resort areas...... Years ago, even most small towns had a bike store...it was where you bought bikes for your kids...and it also serviced the serious adult cyclists- but it was probably the kiddie business that kept them afloat. Today, between Wal*Mart for kiddie bikes and the internet for major purchases for serious cyclists....there's not much left for the LBS (as is the case with many small businesses).


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SolitaryRider said:


> I hate LBS's.


I hate idiots who generalize. No wonder you're "Solitary Rider"....


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> ... every LBS I visited was a clip joint...


Clip joint? you mean like a bodega?



SolitaryRider said:


> .. just basic tools will suffice and you can often improvise....


There is nothing on my bike that this wont fix.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

foto said:


> There is nothing on my bike that this wont fix.


ROTFL!

That...and this:


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## tystevens (Jul 10, 2008)

The OP has more patience than me -- I would have taken one look at the marked-up prices and walked out the door, and the LBS wouldn't have made a sale at all. The LBS has to be smart enough to know who you are competing against (on-line retailers) and know that people are going to know "msrp" as well as discount prices they can get parts at.

I empathize with the small business owner. I categorically disagree with people using the little LBS as a physical showroom of sorts for the big online vendors; typically, if I want to get my hands on something before buying it, I'll pay the person who stocked it and inventoried it, even if I have to pay a little more (as long as their price is reasonable). The exception to this would be large chain stores -- I have no problem looking at something at REI (we don't have any large stores such as Performance around here).

I buy most of my bike clothes and other gear on-line these days, since I know what I want and what fits. But I was in need of a new full-face mtb helmet, and was didn't want to pay return shipping for lids that didn't fit, so I spent time in a few LBS's last week. Man, I was surprised by their prices on the small stuff. I was even more surprised by the attitude from one of the shops, when I didn't buy anything. Now, I didn't try anything on at this particular shop, and maybe just picked up one helmet (didn't take it out of the box, even) and looked at it as I was talking to the guy. I didn't buy because 1) they didn't have anything that didn't look ridiculous -- I don't want a helmet with a zombie ripping out an eyeball; and 2) their stuff was mostly high end, they were charging full msrp (and then some) and I wasn't looking to spend $450 on a helmet. So I was in the shop for about a minute, 90 seconds tops. The guy made some comment as I was halfway out the door about being a cheapskate and going to buy it on line and screw them over. The attitude was surprising, almost like I was obligated to buy from them because I'd walked in the door. I did buy from another LBS who had a helmet I liked and fit right, and which was reasonably priced (less than msrp, but still $30 more than I knew I could buy it online for). 

I mean, I'll spend $.50 on $.10 of lemonade from the neighborhood kids' stand just because they're there and went through the trouble of setting up the card table. But I don't feel an obligation to subsidize the LBS, especially if they don't try to stay competitive, don't stock products I want to buy, and give me attitude about not going along with them on it.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I am curious where the OP got $25 MSRP on Shimano SPD-SL cleats? Or were they some other cleat?


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## todayilearned (Sep 28, 2011)

Sounds like there are some really crappy LBS out there.

My local LBS always has fair prices and if they don't have something in stock I just email the owner. He finds a competitive price comparing online (usually similar prices to Amazon) and then has it in the store in a few days.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

walrus said:


> When I bought my bike it came with a "free" 60 day tuneup. Came in to pick it up and they wanted $40 for new brake pads. Didn't ask before they replaced them, and there is no way they were even slightly worn that soon. I guess most people don't know any better.


Wow! You wore your brake pads out in 60 days? You must ride ONLY downhill and in a tailwind ;-). Now that's really messed up. Plain dishonest. Granted this is like everything - there are great LBS and there are these ones.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Note: this ended up being longer than I planned, but there you go. I hope you'll read it anyway.

In my experience, the quality of a LBS is directly proportional to the attitude of the owner, and how close the owner is to their customer.

I have four LBS that I frequent with some regularity, and not all of them are exactly "local".

One shop, which will celebrate it's one year anniversary in two days, is run by a nice guy who really seems to listen to his customer's needs. And this same trait is evident in his two employees. He has a decent selection of bikes in his show room (started by carrying Jamis, just added Scott, also is a dealer for Guru). His accessory selection is light, which he recognizes, but is working to understand the desires of his customers and provide accordingly. His website is primarily a blog. Often, he'll review new product, such as the Garmin Vector. Or write about trying cyclocross. Or about how he is working to improve his product selection. There is very much a sense of what this shop, and it's owner are about. Prices are reasonable, service is top notch, and the occasional unrequested 10% "student discount" make this 49 year old smile. This shop is also involved in the community, providing schwag to the local cycling club, and sponsoring/presenting at least one cyclocross event. It is also the only shop in the area that speaks Campagnolo.

The second of my four LBS's is the largest one in town. I do not know the owner, although I think I may have seen him once or twice in six years. This shop's primary brands are Trek and Specialized, although they also carry a few recumbents. This shop has, by far, the largest selection of bikes and accessories in my town of 72,000 inhabitants. They also carry a line of home exercise equipment to supplement the bikes, which I suspect is helpful to their business, considering how much it snows here in the winter. The county I live in has about 250,000 people, serviced by eight bike shops. This one is the largest of any of them, and is part of a regional chain of three. It doesn't take long in this store to be greeted by an employee who is ready and willing to help you. Generally several times during your visit. Product knowledge level of all these helpful folks is generally pretty good. I primarily shop here for the selection of stuff: It's not Bontrager/Trek and Specialized only. Prices are generally reasonable, although they did charge me $160 for a special ordered Park TW-5 torque wrench, but I had a $100 gift card and didn't really need anything else at the time, so I didn't really care. Chalk that one up to experience. Counter that with service at the shop that seems to be fine, in my limited experience with them...on the plus side, I once observed them help a guy out who had a Pinarello (which no one in the area carries) who had a race that weekend with a overnight repair when they had a 1-week service backlog.

The third shop is about an 75 miles from home. Carries Felt, Cannondale, Moots, and Terra-Trike, primarily. Run by a engineer turned bike shop owner and his wife. Good selection of accessories. Large selection of components! When I bought my Felt F3 from this shop, and wanted to upgrade the brakes from SRAM non-series to SRAM Red, they turned and pulled them off the shelf. At this shop you can rent any bike or set of wheels in the shop, and your rental fees are then applied to your purchase. The service department has four work stations, which in the summer, are busy. You can talk with the mechanics and observe their work, and ask questions if you like. I'm sure it must drive them nuts sometimes, but that is how the shop is set up. The store basically wraps around the workshop area. An added feature of this shop is that the owners have a seperate, but attached business that manufacters bike rollers under the Sportscrafters name, and they are the OEM manufacturer for one of the larger names in cycling. They sponsor a local racing team. The sponsor individual local cyclists. They provide neutral support services at an annual century event that draws over 5000 cyclists. The put on one cyclocross, one criterium weekend, and two travel bike events each year. One to the Rockies, and last year, the Austin Livestrong Challenge, where my wife got to meet, among others, teoteoteo. Try to get this level of support for the sport out of a mail order shop!

The fourth LBS is not local at all, really: it's six hours away. This shop is located in a town of about 10,000. The entire population of the _county_ it is located is only in the neighborhood of 37,000. That's roughly half the population of the _city_ I live in! Fortunately, he serves a five county area. This shop is located around an hour from a major metropolitan area, the state capitol, with a metro area population of approximately 1.8 million people. This shop has, by far, the largest selection of cycling accessories of any of the other shops, and rivals several shops in the nearby state capitol as well, in that category. The bread and butter brands at this shop: Jamis, Scott, and Raleigh, serve the local market well. But the high end of the market is not forgotten: Cyfac, TIME and others are available. He sponsors a local triathlete who this year is going to do Kona. Campagnolo is spoken here. So is coffee, as the shop owner, who loves both coffee, and cycling in general, carries and sells, and occasionally, pours an excellent coffee that is roasted specifically for his shop. Having had the opportunity to spend some extended time at this shop, I can tell you that the owner, who also serves as the shop mechanic, cashier, sales force, buyer, merchandiser, and window washer, takes good care of his customers. From the little girl and her mom who bring in the little girl's bike that needs a quick adjustment, to the local kid who keeps coming back to look at the bike he'll probably never buy, even though he keeps promising to, to the occasional moreon from these forums who shows up at his shop looking to buy a bike, or parts, or learn how to build wheels. This slightly *misanthropic* ( this is k()d3) bike shop owner takes care of his customers, both locally, and not so locally, and provides an opportunity for the people of his community to have a quality cycling experience.

The world deserves a better cycling experience than the one the Walmart's of the world are willing to provide, and frankly, except for the people on these forums and those like us, all of whom are _cycling enthusiasts_ the online shops don't even really exist, and I'd venture to say that even for a majority of us, our first real bike came from a LBS. For these reasons and more, for a majority of my purchases, I support my LBS.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2012)

walrus said:


> When I bought my bike it came with a "free" 60 day tuneup. Came in to pick it up and they wanted $40 for new brake pads. Didn't ask before they replaced them, and there is no way they were even slightly worn that soon. I guess most people don't know any better.


i had the very same thing happen to me. I went in with a $20 coupon for a tune-up and in addition to the unnecssary brake pad replacement they charged me for transmission fluid and new cabin air filters which I didn't even know they _had_ on bicycles to begin with  ... last time I ever buy a bike from Midas...


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## Gus90 (Apr 24, 2011)

there's an app for that. I can scan a bar code on my iPhone and it brings up online sellers and prices. A very handy tool in situations just like this. Oh, and it lets me order it on the spot if I want. Usually, i'm too lazy to use it to the benefit of LBS everywhere.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Gus90 said:


> there's an app for that. I can scan a bar code on my iPhone and it brings up online sellers and prices. A very handy tool in situations just like this. Oh, and it lets me order it on the spot if I want. Usually, i'm too lazy to use it to the benefit of LBS everywhere.


If I catch someone using the Amazon app in my store, they've lost any discounts I ever would have given them, any free repairs, etc.

Price shopping is one thing. Using my store as a showroom for an online store is WAY over the line.

Of course, most of the time my prices are within $1.00 of Amazon's.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Darn! Don4.......sounds like you're in LBS heaven! (Especially with #3)

It makes a BIG difference when the owner gets into it because he loves cycling...AND that he is aware of what he is getting into- and realizes he is not going to get rich in such a business....as opposed to somebody who invests their life savings and goes heavily into debt, only to later learn the realities of such a business...or someone who's in it but who isn't really a cyclist.....

Funny....but all of those bike shops that I was thinking about when I wrote my earlier posts.....no longer exist.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> If I catch someone using the Amazon app in my store, they've lost any discounts I ever would have given them, any free repairs, etc.
> 
> Price shopping is one thing. Using my store as a showroom for an online store is WAY over the line.
> 
> Of course, most of the time my prices are within $1.00 of Amazon's.


Ever consider that they may just be using the price app to see if they're being reamed or not? 

I wouldn't mind paying $5 more for $30 item at a local store. $10 or $20 more.....or double the Amazon pice, would be another story. At only a dollar more than Amazon, I'd consider you a great bargain and do all my shopping there....

I don't use a smart phone or an app....but when I go into a store for the first time, I am either familiar with the prices of what I want to buy...or make a mental note and then go home and look up the prices- so no matter how you slice it, people are comparison shopping. Granted, the guy who would balk at something being a dollar or two higher in your shop is someone you don't need as a customer anyway...but the trouble is, just because someone pulls out the pricing app, doesn't mean that they're that guy.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SolitaryRider said:


> Ever consider that they may just be using the price app to see if they're being reamed or not?
> 
> I wouldn't mind paying $5 more for $30 item at a local store. $10 or $20 more.....or double the Amazon pice, would be another story. At only a dollar more than Amazon, I'd consider you a great bargain and do all my shopping there....
> 
> I don't use a smart phone or an app....but when I go into a store for the first time, I am either familiar with the prices of what I want to buy...or make a mental note and then go home and look up the prices- so no matter how you slice it, people are comparison shopping. Granted, the guy who would balk at something being a dollar or two higher in your shop is someone you don't need as a customer anyway...but the trouble is, just because someone pulls out the pricing app, doesn't mean that they're that guy.


Don4 can tell you what my prices are like...


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> If I catch someone using the Amazon app in my store, *they've lost any discounts I ever would have given them*, any free repairs, etc.
> 
> Price shopping is one thing. Using my store as a showroom for an online store is WAY over the line.
> 
> Of course, most of the time my prices are within $1.00 of Amazon's.


If your prices are usually with $1 of Amazon, then getting a discount shouldn't matter. At least for me. 

I don't see what the difference is between looking up an online price on a smartphone in a store versus looking it up at home, or in the car in the parking lot outside the store. People are going to comparison shop whether you like it or not.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Don4 can tell you what my prices are like...


No one's disputing that. If your items are competitively priced, then you shouldn't have any problem with people who comparison shop...because no one in their right mind is going to order from Amazon if your price is with a few dollars of theirs. 

Seems like it'd be the guys who charge double what Amazon charges who'd be the ones to fear the price-app shoppers.....


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

(((See? It's the attitudes of guys like Playpius, who, even if they do run a quality, fair shop, chase pootential customers away and create the experiences that give LBS's a bad name)))


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Don4 can tell you what my prices are like...


Yeah, and maybe I _should_ since I didn't really cover that above, although I meant to. (Platy's shop is shop #4 above, if you haven't already made the connection.)

Platy has good prices. Prices as marked are reasonable, although I have yet to pay that price when shopping at his shop (so far), although I'd be fine if that were the case. I have always come away from Platy's shop feeling I was well treated personally and received good value for my money. And I'm an accountant, so that's saying something! 

If you visit him and head out to dinner afterwords just be sure to arrive early enough to not have to eat at BWW. My car has never been the same....


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SolitaryRider said:


> No one's disputing that. If your items are competitively priced, then you shouldn't have any problem with people who comparison shop...because no one in their right mind is going to order from Amazon if your price is with a few dollars of theirs.
> 
> Seems like it'd be the guys who charge double what Amazon charges who'd be the ones to fear the price-app shoppers.....





Propofol said:


> If your prices are usually with $1 of Amazon, then getting a discount shouldn't matter. At least for me.
> 
> I don't see what the difference is between looking up an online price on a smartphone in a store versus looking it up at home, or in the car in the parking lot outside the store. People are going to comparison shop whether you like it or not.


It's not the price comparison that bothers me. It's the fact that Amazon is actively trying to get shoppers to use my store as a showroom. It's a matter of principle, not fear.


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm lucky enough to have a LBS that doesn't mark up and although I can find the items cheaper on the internet, it's not worth it on most items. For instance, I bought a Force crankset and FD from my LBS. I went in there knowing what I could get it for on the internet. However, they were able to get it in 2 days. I dropped off the bike before closing on Friday night. First thing Sat morning, they had it installed, re-routed my cables that weren't right, did some other minor fixes, and called me while I was having coffee. No down time on my bike, no charge for any of the tweeking or installation and the total cost for me was about 8% over what I could have ordered on the internet. Well worth it. Of course my LBS has always treated me and have given me great service. Today, the owner gave me a loaner 110 mm stem to try out telling me to make sure I use it for more than a ride or two and then I could come back and try a 120 to narrow it down. There's no pressure to buy, but I feel like giving them my business because they treat me so well. I'm just a beginner rider who has been a customer for under 2 yrs. Biketown you rock!


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> It's not the price comparison that bothers me. It's the fact that Amazon is actively trying to get shoppers to use my store as a showroom. It's a matter of principle, not fear.


Amazon is doing nothing of the sort.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Propofol said:


> Amazon is doing nothing of the sort.


Sure they are! His shop and any other store (cycling related or not) where a consumer can lay there hands, and eyes, directly on the merchandise to see if it's really what they want! Then, maybe they buy the product directly in front of them, or maybe they order it directly through Amazon. Either using the app on their phone, or once they get home.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

Don4 said:


> Sure they are! His shop and any other store (cycling related or not) where a consumer can lay there hands, and eyes, directly on the merchandise to see if it's really what they want! Then, maybe they buy the product directly in front of them, or maybe they order it directly through Amazon. Either using the app on their phone, or once they get home.


Perhaps we should just get rid of shopping apps altogether. Or just ban Internet access outright in all retail establishments. All I know is, any store with a policy like that tells me they have something to hide. Sorry, but shopping at a brick & mortar, privately owned mom & pop store is not a privilege for the buyer. Smart people are going to comparison shop whether they're at home or in the store. That's a fact of life these days and B&M stores are just going to have to adapt to it or die.

Getting back to Amazon, though - the fact that they developed a shopping app does not, in any way, mean that Amazon is encouraging people to go out and use B&M stores as showrooms to demo items. How anyone can come to a conclusion like that is beyond me. Would your opinion be any different if Amazon didn't have a dedicated shopping app? What's to stop me from just firing up the browser on my phone and going to Amazon's site directly to check prices? Oh no, better ban smartphones in stores now!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all advocating that people should screw over local stores by using them as showrooms and then buying online. Going in to any store with that intention is ethically questionable and in poor taste. I'm all for giving a local store the benefit of the doubt and supporting their business, but that doesn't mean I'm going to not educate myself (whether it's at home or in the store), and I'm certainly not going to allow myself to be price gouged.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Propofol said:


> Perhaps we should just get rid of shopping apps altogether. Or just ban Internet access outright in all retail establishments. All I know is, any store with a policy like that tells me they have something to hide. Sorry, but shopping at a brick & mortar, privately owned mom & pop store is not a privilege for the buyer. Smart people are going to comparison shop whether they're at home or in the store. That's a fact of life these days and B&M stores are just going to have to adapt to it or die.
> 
> Getting back to Amazon, though - the fact that they developed a shopping app does not, in any way, mean that Amazon is encouraging people to go out and use B&M stores as showrooms to demo items. How anyone can come to a conclusion like that is beyond me. Would your opinion be any different if Amazon didn't have a dedicated shopping app? What's to stop me from just firing up the browser on my phone and going to Amazon's site directly to check prices? Oh no, better ban smartphones in stores now!


Okay, then explain to me what the purpose of the barcode / QR scanning feature of this app is for? With the rare exception of finding one of these QR codes in a magazine ad, you will find them on a display in a brick and mortar (or steel building, or what ever) retail establishment. If someone just wants to use said app to look up and compare features and pricing, sure, they can. But to believe Amazon is providing this app without any thought to selling product through them is naive, or troll-like.

As far as banning Internet access in a store, sure. We'll just build a jamming system to block all cellular signals. Ain't gonna happen. And you are right, you _can_ just pull up Amazon's website on your phone -- there is nothing stopping you.

And, frankly, there is nothing wrong with selling you something at the prices marked, which is all Platy is suggesting he would do, if he caught you price checking him in his store. And you'd never even know it was happening. You just wouldn't get the pleasant surprise of a discount from that marked price.

If you don't want to buy from a LBS, then don't. It won't bother me one bit.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Propofol said:


> Perhaps we should just get rid of shopping apps altogether. Or just ban Internet access outright in all retail establishments. *All I know is, any store with a policy like that tells me they have something to hide. * Sorry, but shopping at a brick & mortar, privately owned mom & pop store is not a privilege for the buyer. Smart people are going to comparison shop whether they're at home or in the store. That's a fact of life these days and B&M stores are just going to have to adapt to it or die.
> 
> Getting back to Amazon, though - the fact that they developed a shopping app does not, in any way, mean that Amazon is encouraging people to go out and use B&M stores as showrooms to demo items. How anyone can come to a conclusion like that is beyond me. Would your opinion be any different if Amazon didn't have a dedicated shopping app? What's to stop me from just firing up the browser on my phone and going to Amazon's site directly to check prices? Oh no, better ban smartphones in stores now!
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all advocating that people should screw over local stores by using them as showrooms and then buying online. Going in to any store with that intention is ethically questionable and in poor taste. I'm all for giving a local store the benefit of the doubt and supporting their business, but that doesn't mean I'm going to not educate myself (whether it's at home or in the store), and I'm certainly not going to allow myself to be price gouged.


Furor surrounds Amazon's comparison-shopping app Price Check - Los Angeles Times

Amazon's Price Check App Undercuts Brick-and-Mortar Stores Prices | Moneyland | TIME.com

Today Amazon Will Give You $15 To Use PriceCheck and Screw Local Retailers | TechCrunch

Amazon Price Check Discount Has Competitors Crying Foul | PCWorld

Amazon Price-Check App Is Attack on Small Stores, Snowe Says - Businessweek

Retail association pissed about Amazon.com’s Price Check app - GeekWire

As for the bolded part....
Why would you think there was something to hide? It's a matter of principle. Just like it would be very wrong to post an ad for my store on another shop's facebook page. It's pretty much the same thing. Use the LBS to touch and see the product, try it on, then order it online. If you think we don't waste LOTS of time fitting people for bikes, clothing, wetsuits, and helmets that are then purchased online, you're high.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

"Time is money". Someone wealthier than me once told me that.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> As for the bolded part....
> Why would you think there was something to hide? It's a matter of principle. Just like it would be very wrong to post an ad for my store on another shop's facebook page. It's pretty much the same thing. Use the LBS to touch and see the product, try it on, then order it online. If you think we don't waste LOTS of time fitting people for bikes, clothing, wetsuits, and helmets that are then purchased online, you're high.


Calm down. I'm all for giving local stores a fair shot at my business and I'm certainly not denying that you probably do deal with many less than ethical shoppers who use you as a showroom. The real question is, what can you do about these people besides complain about them? Respect between the seller and the buyer goes both ways and unfortunately part of doing business is dealing with the bottom feeders as well as the good customers.

In the absence of a specific price comparison app, most people who own a smartphone are savvy enough to be able to at least do simple price checks on their browsers. Whether you use an app to do it is just as irrelevant as where you do it. That's a fact of life in business today. Accept it and come up with incentives to get more people to buy from you than online, or go out of business. That's the bottom line.



> And you are right, you can just pull up Amazon's website on your phone -- there is nothing stopping you.


Precisely. So the existence of an app is irrelevant. Shift the blame to internet access on phones and other mobile devices.



> And, frankly, there is nothing wrong with selling you something at the prices marked, which is all Platy is suggesting he would do, if he caught you price checking him in his store. And you'd never even know it was happening. You just wouldn't get the pleasant surprise of a discount from that marked price.


You're right, nothing wrong with that, and I never said there was. If his prices truly are "within a few dollars" of online prices, then he shouldn't have a problem with people comparison shopping in his store, save for a few of the really cheap ones who absolutely have to pay the lowest price for everything.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> As for the bolded part....
> Why would you think there was something to hide? It's a matter of principle. Just like it would be very wrong to post an ad for my store on another shop's facebook page. It's pretty much the same thing. Use the LBS to touch and see the product, try it on, then order it online. If you think we don't waste LOTS of time fitting people for bikes, clothing, wetsuits, and helmets that are then purchased online, you're high.


Look, if your prices are as competitive as you say, then only the rare demented person is going to forgo purchasing your item because it is $1 more than what he sees on Amazon, and order it from Amazon. Any normal person would buy the one in front of them if it were within a few bucks of Amazon's.

If your items are priced at retail/MSRP or higher...then lots of people are going to pass on them, regardless of whether they have the Amazon app or not- so what are you losing if someone is using the Amazon app in the store?

Personally, if i had a retail store and my stuff was priced competitively, I'd welcome the use of the Amazon app, as it would prove how reasonable my prices are, and i know that 99 out of 100 people are not going to order from Amazon if my merch is right in front of them for a dollar or two more. 

On the other hand...if I had my stuff marked way up, then I'd be worried about people just using the store to see the stuff and then ordering from Amazon...but that would be a factor whether they were using the app or no. And even so, it costs you nothing...unless the customers are handling the merchandise in an inconsiderate way...in which case they would need to be spoken to or asked to leave- again, regardless of whether they were using the Amazon app...or a newspaper ad or memory. 

(I've been self-employed since i was 17 - I'm 49 now- I know a little something about business..and I've never feared competition- because I've always offered either competitive prices for my services...or extra value for the price paid)


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

The ironic thing is: Amazon seems to be taking steps to obscure their own prices. Lately, I've noticed on a lot of items there, it says "Add to cart to see price" or "click here to see price", etc. So perhaps their little app which they thought was going to up to their sales...is having the opposite effect, and indeed causing people to say "Ya know, for $2 more, I'll just buy this one right here in my hand".


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SolitaryRider said:


> The ironic thing is: Amazon seems to be taking steps to obscure their own prices. Lately, I've noticed on a lot of items there, it says "Add to cart to see price" or "click here to see price", etc. So perhaps their little app which they thought was going to up to their sales...is having the opposite effect, and indeed causing people to say "Ya know, for $2 more, I'll just buy this one right here in my hand".


Actually, that's because they're selling below the "MAP - Minimum Advertised Price". That's how they beat the brand's rules - hide the price until it's in the cart.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

Have a good core business principles, consistent, repeatable best practices and focus on where you want to go. Also, with a plan on how to get there. Put energy into things you can control. At the end of the day the internet existed before the app and the internet has flourished, but so have good retail stores too. If you're really so paranoid over the app the solution is pretty simple, cover up the bar codes.


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## B05 (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm going to chime in a bit:

What I consider LBS is around a 10km radius. I only have one unfortunately. It's a very small shop ran by a middle aged man. He carries mostly Shimano and his top of the line stuff stops at 105. He also carries some local brand bikes and Fuji. The only thing I you guys wouldn't bought from his store was tubes.

Too bad I will not ever support this guy's store again because of his heavy hands. He scratched the cranks I had asked him to take out (what's foul was that he did not mention that he did it prior to me leaving his shop). He was a nice guy but honesty wise he wasn't the best. 

Some of you guys are lucky to have 2 or more LBS'. I'm now considering buying some tools to do wrenching on my own.


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## RacerOne (Aug 17, 2009)

Solitary Rider and Propoful:

If only you could realize how ridiculous you sound when criticizing Platy's shop and business practices, specifically from a customer standpoint. I have to assume you've never been there or met him in person, he's really just a lovable fuzzball. It's a great shop, with great product and prices. Don't go in throwing your 'buying power' around and you'll be more than pleased with the outcome.

His comment about not giving a discount to somebody he saw using a web app to check prices is just that. No discount, you'll pay the price marked. No meanness or bitterness, just no happy unexpected discount for you.. move along. :thumbsup:


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

Unfortunately, all bike shops and wrenches are not created equally. In your case of limited access and mediocre skills at the shop, you would be well-suited to pick up some tools and learn how to use them. Get a few good books like the Park guide and Zinn's and ask lots of questions...


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## Teamfour (Jan 11, 2012)

Here is my recent experience: I am looking to buy a Garmin Edge 200. MSRP is $149 and almost everyone (REI, Amazon, Ebay, etc) sells it for that. I called my LBS to see if they had one and yes they do, for $199! Let me say that I will pay slightly higher prices at an LBS to 1) support them, 2) get personalized service, and 3) establish a relationship for when I need their tuning services. But how does 1 and 2 apply when I simply buy a packaged item for $50 more than what I can get at REI down the street? This is a bad business model by the LBS.


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## Teamfour (Jan 11, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> While I don't agree with ever selling anything over MSRP, I can at least understand it in this case. Garmin has the crappiest margins in the industry. So crappy that it's almost insulting. For someone like REI, that's fine - they do enough volume. For a small local shop, that Garmin could sit there for a year or two, even at MSRP.


Well, that is an eye-opener, thanks! That may explain why another LBS near me doesn't even carry Garmin.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Teamfour said:


> Here is my recent experience: I am looking to buy a Garmin Edge 200. MSRP is $149 and almost everyone (REI, Amazon, Ebay, etc) sells it for that. I called my LBS to see if they had one and yes they do, for $199! Let me say that I will pay slightly higher prices at an LBS to 1) support them, 2) get personalized service, and 3) establish a relationship for when I need their tuning services. But how does 1 and 2 apply when I simply buy a packaged item for $50 more than what I can get at REI down the street? This is a bad business model by the LBS.


While I don't agree with ever selling anything over MSRP, I can at least understand it in this case. Garmin has the crappiest margins in the industry. So crappy that it's almost insulting. For someone like REI, that's fine - they do enough volume. For a small local shop, that Garmin could sit there for a year or two, even at MSRP.


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## Teamfour (Jan 11, 2012)

Wow, I quoted your reply before you posted it. Maybe I should play the lottery today.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

RacerOne said:


> Solitary Rider and Propoful:
> 
> If only you could realize how ridiculous you sound when criticizing Platy's shop and business practices, specifically from a customer standpoint. I have to assume you've never been there or met him in person, he's really just a lovable fuzzball. It's a great shop, with great product and prices. Don't go in throwing your 'buying power' around and you'll be more than pleased with the outcome.
> 
> His comment about not giving a discount to somebody he saw using a web app to check prices is just that. No discount, you'll pay the price marked. No meanness or bitterness, just no happy unexpected discount for you.. move along. :thumbsup:


And didn't I say there was nothing wrong with that? I have no idea why you interpreted my comments as some kind of criticism of anyone's shop.

Platypius may be the nicest guy in the world and he may run one of the nicest shops around as you claim. That's fine. You are correct, I've never been there or met him in person. But that has nothing to do with what we were discussing, which is the current evolving business environment and competition from online retailers. I am merely pointing out that people are going to comparison shop and a certain percentage will screw over local businesses by wasting their time and then going and buying online. What do YOU propose local shop owners do about it? Not giving a discount is fine, but if his prices are already competitive with online prices then I don't see why that is an issue because there is no need for an additional discount. At least, I wouldn't go into his store expecting one because I already know I'll be getting a fair deal (obviously, not everyone feels this way). It just seems unnecessarily vindictive to treat a customer differently just because he's checking prices on his iPad or smartphone in the store.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

Teamfour said:


> Wow, I quoted your reply before you posted it. Maybe I should play the lottery today.


This happens often, usually when the RBR server (i.e. hamsters on a wheel) has too much Kool Aid and gets high, drunk, or horny.


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## Tommy Walker (Aug 14, 2009)

I try hard to give the business to many of the LBS's in my area, but internet priciing and places like Performance just make it tough. Last year I was so happy I could get a discounted Giro Ionis helmet from my LBS @ <$200, a few months ago you could get them on line for <$120.

I don't understand markup above MSRP, it would make me stereotype that shop and I wouldn't go in thee anymore. I generally know what something cost before I start looking for it and if I really want it, any type of discount mkes me happy.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> What do YOU propose local shop owners do about it?


Provide exceptional customer service. I don't believe any online app or store can provide the full PlatyPius Experience.


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## SlowMover (Jun 6, 2010)

At least they had it! My LBS is hysterical. Not only is the price disparity like you experienced, but then they have to order it and you have to come back a second time. OR.....save 30% or more and have it on your door step in 2 days via the interwebz.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Propofol said:


> It just seems unnecessarily vindictive to treat a customer differently just because he's checking prices on his iPad or smartphone in the store.


It isn't checking prices that pisses me off. It's ONLY the Amazon app.

Not to mention the fact that if people ask, I check prices for them online anyway (Google shopping search). Then I'll try to match the averaged price as close as I can.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> It isn't checking prices that pisses me off. It's ONLY the Amazon app.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that if people ask, I check prices for them online anyway (Google shopping search). Then I'll try to match the averaged price as close as I can.


But can't you do everything the Amazon app does using just a browser? I honestly don't know - I've got the app installed on my phone but I've never really used it.

Anyway, I'm not criticizing your business practices at all. In fact, you sound like one of the more reasonable small business owners out there. I'm sure you already know that having a storefront not only subjects you to less than forthright customers out there with no loyalty to you, but on the other hand you do have some advantages over the online big-box retailers.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Propofol said:


> But can't you do everything the Amazon app does using just a browser? I honestly don't know - I've got the app installed on my phone but I've never really used it.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not criticizing your business practices at all. In fact, you sound like one of the more reasonable small business owners out there. I'm sure you already know that having a storefront not only subjects you to less than forthright customers out there with no loyalty to you, but on the other hand you do have some advantages over the online big-box retailers.


The benefit of the app to the customer is being able to just scan the bar code. My issue with the app is the reason for it existing - to use my store for selling Amazon product. Since it does scan a bar code, meaning you have the product in your hand, can you think of ANY reason for it other than to use my store as a showroom to sell stuff for Amazon?

That's my issue with it.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> The benefit of the app to the customer is being able to just scan the bar code. My issue with the app is the reason for it existing - to use my store for selling Amazon product. Since it does scan a bar code, meaning you have the product in your hand, can you think of ANY reason for it other than to use my store as a showroom to sell stuff for Amazon?
> 
> That's my issue with it.


Open an Amazon account so when they scan the bar code in your store they buy the product from you. You can offer a steep discount on the Amazon store, and then charge the balance as "handling". Then you can hand them a receipt and they walk out with the product.

All the conveniences of modern living...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Hmmm.... that's something I hadn't actually considered.

Time to do some research....


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> The benefit of the app to the customer is being able to just scan the bar code. My issue with the app is the reason for it existing - to use my store for selling Amazon product. Since it does scan a bar code, meaning you have the product in your hand, can you think of ANY reason for it other than to use my store as a showroom to sell stuff for Amazon?
> 
> That's my issue with it.


I understand how it works, but again - how is this any different from just typing in the product name/model in a browser on a smartphone while in your store? The SAME information is displayed whether the barcode is scanned in an app or name is typed in in a browser - and it's being done in your store, so the result is the same.

It really sounds to me that your anger is misdirected. Instead of blaming Amazon or their app, blame the entire Internet. Besides, there are plenty of other mobile apps out there that do the same thing Amazon's app does, and more - some not only scan barcodes and search Amazon for prices, but searches most other online retailers in general. Pricegrabber and Google Shopper are two apps that come to mind. You going to rant against them too?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Hmmm.... that's something I hadn't actually considered.
> 
> Time to do some research....


Holy crap! No wonder the prices on Amazon aren't that great. To sell bicycles and parts on Amazon would involve a 15% "referral fee", a "variable closing fee", and a "fixed per-item closing fee".

So a $100 item would immediately cost me $15.00 for the "referral fee" plus the variable fee and the fixed fee (99 cents). The "variable" fee looks to be around 13.5%. So, $15 + $13.50+ $0.99 to sell a $100 item. That's $29.49. A $100 item would normally cost $50. $79.49 total cost on a $100 item leaves very, very little for profit, and honestly isn't worth it, when you consider that I'd have to discount the item to make it appealing to customers. So, that $100 item was originally $120 with a cost of $60. $60 + $29.49 = $89.49 :: $100.00 - $89.49 = definitely not worth my time.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

RacerOne said:


> Solitary Rider and Propoful:
> 
> If only you could realize how ridiculous you sound when criticizing Platy's shop and business practices, specifically from a customer standpoint. I have to assume you've never been there or met him in person, he's really just a lovable fuzzball. It's a great shop, with great product and prices. Don't go in throwing your 'buying power' around and you'll be more than pleased with the outcome.
> 
> His comment about not giving a discount to somebody he saw using a web app to check prices is just that. No discount, you'll pay the price marked. No meanness or bitterness, just no happy unexpected discount for you.. move along. :thumbsup:


Whoa! I'm not criticizing Platy's shop or business practices- although I am citing the practices of some shops that i have actually been to. It sounds to me like Platy DOES run a fair, quality shop. Maybe it doesn't come across in what I posted...but if Platy's shop were near me, I'm sure I'd be a customer.

What I am a little critical of, is Platy's attitude. And I'm not saying that he'
s a bad guy or anything.....he sounds like a very nice, honest guy- but all I'm saying is that he may be harming himself and his business by the attitude he exhibits.

Not that I would even blame him for having that attitude- because i know what the general public is like- the entitlement generation, who say "screw the business owner" and who gripe if a store charges three cents more than an Ebay seller- which is why I have always avoided retail businesses, because I know that if I had to deal with the public, I would probably be very surly with anyone who did not appear to be a fair-minded sincere customer. 

But the thing is, in retail, if you want to do well, you have to know how to treat the public- and I don't just mean by offering fair prices and honest service. You have to even be diplomatic with the cretins, because they will likely comprise 90% of the people who walk into your store.

For instance: You see a guy using the Amazon app....even if he IS using your store as a free showroom.....a good retail man would not kick him out or bar him from a discount, but would instead treat him nicely ('cause after all, the more traffic you have in your store, the more you're going to sell...and even the people using your store as an Amazon showroom, may well end up buying something...and definitely will if you cultivate a relationship with them and treat them nice)- so instead, OFFER such people the discount...it lets them know you are trying and that your prices are great, and once they have a good experience at your store and feel they've gotten a very fair deal, they're almost guaranteed to be a repeat customer. As long as they're not harming the merchandise...annoying other customers or stealing....just the fact that they're in the store is half the battle won.

Or, instead of criticizing me for my initial post in which I mention that I've encountered nothing but lousy LBSs, a better thing to do would have been to say something like "It's too bad that you've had such poor experiences with LBSs, but at my store, we do...."- One has to be tactful in retail. (And no hard feelings toward Platy for that post- I appreciate his candor and honesty- and as I said, if I were in retail, I know I'd be a lot worse!)

So really, this isn't so much about Platy...as it is about the attitudes and skills that make for good retail business and the various practices of other shops. I also realize that if I were actually in the LBS business....which is a very tough business to stay afloat in and make a decent profit in, I'd likely be a little touvhy about the subject too- just as i may be a little touchy on the other side of the issue, as a customer who has never encountered a GOOD LBS. 

So no hard feelings....it's good that we can discuss such things from our various vantage points- and I hope that Platy doesn't take it personally- just as i don't take what he's said personally. I wish Platy's shop was local to me...I'm sure I'd be a customer.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Platy, you've got that wrong- I've sold on Amazon. You pay the 15% and the .99 cents...and a small monthly fee if you're a business/high-volume seller.... But it's still not going to make you much money....as there are so many people working for free and selling stuff too cheap....plus the shipping costs on Amazon are fixed at a set amount per category...so you might sell a heavy item that costs you $30 to ship..and only get $2.99 from the buyer for shipping. It's a losing proposition to compete with Wal*Mart and Amazon or anyone, on price alone. Plus there's the time and cost of packing the items...shipping supplies....fraudulent buyers saying your item was not as described or arrived broken, then sending you back their old broken item instead of the one you sent them (and Amazon takes your money to refund them- granted, that's not as big a problem on Amazon as it is on Ebay)....

In short...competing on Amazon would be a lot of work for very little, if any, profit.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> But the thing is, in retail, if you want to do well, you have to know how to treat the public- and I don't just mean by offering fair prices and honest service. You have to even be diplomatic with the cretins, because they will likely comprise 90% of the people who walk into your store.
> 
> For instance: You see a guy using the Amazon app....even if he IS using your store as a free showroom.....a good retail man would not kick him out or bar him from a discount, but would instead treat him nicely ('cause after all, the more traffic you have in your store, the more you're going to sell...and even the people using your store as an Amazon showroom, may well end up buying something...and definitely will if you cultivate a relationship with them and treat them nice)- so instead, OFFER such people the discount...it lets them know you are trying and that your prices are great, and once they have a good experience at your store and feel they've gotten a very fair deal, they're almost guaranteed to be a repeat customer. As long as they're not harming the merchandise...annoying other customers or stealing....just the fact that they're in the store is half the battle won.


There's discount and there's discount. 

Here in London we have several groups that automatically get 10%. London Cycling Campaign, Cyclist Touring Club, NHS etc, etc. Then there's sometimes a club attached to the shop whose members may get a bit more as well as perhaps preferential labour rates. There's also the good old fashioned "What can you do?" discount that has to be asked for. But the kind of discount that is the sweetest, and I suspect the one Platy withholds, is the one given unexpectedly. The look on that customer's face is great. Problem is the App Guy is 9 times out of 10 in my experience the kid of person who'll expect it every time.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> There's discount and there's discount.
> 
> Here in London we have several groups that automatically get 10%. London Cycling Campaign, Cyclist Touring Club, NHS etc, etc. Then there's sometimes a club attached to the shop whose members may get a bit more as well as perhaps preferential labour rates. There's also the good old fashioned "What can you do?" discount that has to be asked for. But the kind of discount that is the sweetest, and I suspect the one Platy withholds, is the one given unexpectedly. The look on that customer's face is great. Problem is the App Guy is 9 times out of 10 in my experience the kid of person who'll expect it every time.


Meh. If his prices are as good as he says and are comparable to online prices, then I don't see much of a loss for "App Guy". If he's already getting a competitive price without any additional discount, it won't matter.

Unless the owner is telling the buyer "I would have given you an additional discount if you weren't using that Amazon app in my store." And if he does, that's just spiteful and petty. If I saw a customer being treated like that I would make it known to the owner that he lost my business as well as that of the app user.

And again - I am NOT saying Platypius does this. Nor am I accusing him of doing so.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Propofol said:


> And again - I am NOT saying Platypius does this. Nor am I accusing him of doing so.


No, I don't do that.
My normal prices are competitive. If you're a member of the local cycling club (which I started, and is free - I pay all of the costs; we use meetup.com) you automatically get 10% off. If you've accumulated over 3000 "bonus points" (1 point per dollar spent - part of my POS program), you automatically get 10% off (not combined). Then there's the Random Discount. If you're looking at something but can't quite decide, I'll offer it at a lower price. If it's something that has been in the store for a while, I'll cut you a deal on it. If the packaging is damaged.... you get the idea.

If I see you using the Amazon app, you just get my normal competitive price with no discounts, but you don't know that you lost possible discounts.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> No, I don't do that.
> My normal prices are competitive. If you're a member of the local cycling club (which I started, and is free - I pay all of the costs; we use meetup.com) you automatically get 10% off. If you've accumulated over 3000 "bonus points" (1 point per dollar spent - part of my POS program), you automatically get 10% off (not combined). Then there's the Random Discount. If you're looking at something but can't quite decide, I'll offer it at a lower price. If it's something that has been in the store for a while, I'll cut you a deal on it. If the packaging is damaged.... you get the idea.
> 
> If I see you using the Amazon app, you just get my normal competitive price with no discounts, but you don't know that you lost possible discounts.


That's cool. What the buyer doesn't know won't hurt him, right? If he's buying from you, he's obviously OK with paying the price you've set for him, so you're not really sending any kind of message to anyone - which leaves the suggestion that the reason you do this is simply out of spite. And no, there's nothing wrong with that but it doesn't make you look good either.

What do you do (or not do) if you catch someone using the Pricegrabber app? Or Google Shopper?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Propofol said:


> That's cool. What the buyer doesn't know won't hurt him, right? If he's buying from you, he's obviously OK with paying the price you've set for him, so you're not really sending any kind of message to anyone - which leaves the suggestion that the reason you do this is simply out of spite. And no, there's nothing wrong with that but it doesn't make you look good either.
> 
> What do you do (or not do) if you catch someone using the Pricegrabber app? Or Google Shopper?


Honestly? I don't know. I've only actually seen one person using the Amazon app so far, aside from myself. I get people in every once in a while who look up products via Google search, but I don't have as much of a problem with that as I do with Amazon. Even if my price is $10 higher on a $100 item (rare, but it happens), the majority of people in this town would rather do without the wait and would rather support local business. I get a LOT of people coming in who support Buy Local, our Chamber's push to get people to buy stuff here rather than in Indy or online.

So really, this whole Amazon debate is just an exercise to fight boredom on a cold January day at the bike shop... for the most part, it's a non-issue.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Platy, if your pices are within a few bucks of Amazon's...I don't see how you can give all those discounts on top of that...but kudos to you for doing so!


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

Just curious, why do you have such a problem with Amazon's barcode scanning app but not so much with Google's barcode scanning app? Or Pricegrabber's? If anything Google and Pricegrabber offer more comprehensive price search algorithms and outperform Amazon in terms of finding low online prices.

The one app I use the most when comparison shopping in retail establishments is eBay, because most of the time the asking prices there undercut anything else on the Internet. In fact, for my most recent bike build (a 2011 Cannondale SuperSix Hi-Mod) I obtained 90% of the parts as well as the frame brand new from eBay. Ended up building a $6000 MSRP bike for $3200.

So I think your anger is justified, but misdirected. It's not Amazon that's screwing you, it's the Internet in general.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Because Amazon is a seller. Neither Google nor Pricegrabber actually sell items themselves. Their apps are "helper apps". Amazon's is a blatant marketing app.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Just curious, why do you have such a problem with Amazon's barcode scanning app but not so much with Google's barcode scanning app? Or Pricegrabber's? If anything Google and Pricegrabber offer more comprehensive price search algorithms and outperform Amazon in terms of finding low online prices.
> 
> The one app I use the most when comparison shopping in retail establishments is eBay, because most of the time the asking prices there undercut anything else on the Internet. In fact, for my most recent bike build (a 2011 Cannondale SuperSix Hi-Mod) I obtained 90% of the parts as well as the frame brand new from eBay. Ended up building a $6000 MSRP bike for $3200.
> 
> So I think your anger is justified, but misdirected. *It's not Amazon that's screwing you, it's the Internet in general.*


It's also a pretty inconsiderate customer that walks into a one man operation and starts price shopping on the net.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

> Because Amazon is a seller. Neither Google nor Pricegrabber actually sell items themselves. Their apps are "helper apps". Amazon's is a blatant marketing app.


Not sure I understand the distinction but whatever. Thanks for the clarification.



> It's also a pretty inconsiderate customer that walks into a one man operation and starts price shopping on the net.


Agreed. What the customer should do is do his research on the net at home before going to the store so the owner doesn't catch him comparison shopping on his phone and screw himself out of a potential discount. Right?


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> No, I don't do that.
> My normal prices are competitive. If you're a member of the local cycling club (which I started, and is free - I pay all of the costs; we use meetup.com) you automatically get 10% off. If you've accumulated over 3000 "bonus points" (1 point per dollar spent - part of my POS program), you automatically get 10% off (not combined). Then there's the Random Discount. If you're looking at something but can't quite decide, I'll offer it at a lower price. If it's something that has been in the store for a while, I'll cut you a deal on it. If the packaging is damaged.... you get the idea.
> 
> If I see you using the Amazon app, you just get my normal competitive price with no discounts,* but you don't know that you lost possible discounts.*


They do now. :thumbsup:


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Not sure I understand the distinction but whatever. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> 
> Agreed. What the customer should do is do his research on the net at home before going to the store so the owner doesn't catch him comparison shopping on his phone and screw himself out of a potential discount. Right?


Well, what the customer should do is not be a dillhole. It has to start somewhere, and the benefits will flow over to other parts of life.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> Well, what the customer should do is not be a dillhole. It has to start somewhere, and the benefits will flow over to other parts of life.


A customer's only obligation to a store is to pay the agreed price for a piece of merchandise that he wants to buy. Whether that customer is a dillhole or not is irrelevant.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> The relationship between LBS & customer is just that, a relationship. As such it has to have a basis to exist. Just as an in life in general we make decisions based on others' behaviour.
> 
> Shop prices & expects to sell all merchandise at or above MSRP = Many alienated potential customers & hence reduced turnover/profit etc
> Customer behaves like a dillhole = Misses out on potential fringe benefits (discounts & free kit).
> You see, It works both ways. You go through like as a dillhole and you miss out on so much without ever realising it.


...And if you don't ever realize it, it doesn't matter - what you don't know won't hurt you. Because for someone whose only priority is to get the best possible price, those "potential fringe benefits" weren't important to that person in the first place, and neither is establishing any kind of relationship with the LBS. So your point is irrelevant to this topic.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> A customer's only obligation to a store is to pay the agreed price for a piece of merchandise that he wants to buy. Whether that customer is a dillhole or not is irrelevant.


The relationship between LBS & customer is just that, a relationship. As such it has to have a basis to exist. Just as an in life in general we make decisions based on others' behaviour.

Shop prices & expects to sell all merchandise at or above MSRP = Many alienated potential customers & hence reduced turnover/profit etc
Customer behaves like a dillhole = Misses out on potential fringe benefits (discounts & free kit).
You see, It works both ways. You go through like as a dillhole and you miss out on so much without ever realising it.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> ...And if you don't ever realize it, it doesn't matter. Because those "potential fringe benefits" weren't important to that person in the first place.


Even dillholes know people who are fully rounded people. After a while they'll wonder why they never get offered the free tube, quick adjust for free, at the till random discount etc. If the non-dillholes they ride with are nice they may tell them why. Whether they understand and modify their behaviour is debatable.

I have seen on a couple of instances this at work. Two guys walked in to our shop wheeling their bikes. Neither bike has been bought from us, one has an "Supplied by Evans" sticker, the other is a brand new Focus (supplied by Wiggle only). Rider A is dressed in a mix of kit, some bought from us, with a couple of DHB items, rider B is head to foot DHB. Both have minor ailments taking a couple of minutes. Rider B gets how bike back first and pays the bill having almost walked off without paying, assuming it was "only a small job". Just as he's paid the other bike comes out of the workshop. But rider A isn't as assumptive and asks "How much" and is told "No bother mate, on the house". The look of confusion on Focus guy's face is priceless.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> Even dillholes know people who are fully rounded people. After a while they'll wonder why they never get offered the free tube, quick adjust for free, at the till random discount etc. If the non-dillholes they ride with are nice they may tell them why. Whether they understand and modify their behaviour is debatable.
> 
> I have seen on a couple of instances this at work. Two guys walked in to our shop wheeling their bikes. Neither bike has been bought from us, one has an "Supplied by Evans" sticker, the other is a brand new Focus (supplied by Wiggle only). Rider A is dressed in a mix of kit, some bought from us, with a couple of DHB items, rider B is head to foot DHB. Both have minor ailments taking a couple of minutes. Rider B gets how bike back first and pays the bill having almost walked off without paying, assuming it was "only a small job". Just as he's paid the other bike comes out of the workshop. But rider A isn't as assumptive and asks "How much" and is told "No bother mate, on the house". The look of confusion on Focus guy's face is priceless.


Still irrelevant. Nobody forced Rider B to take his bike into that particular store to have his bike repaired, and if he paid for the repair you can assume he was satisfied with the work and agreed to pay the set price for it before any work was started. In other words, nobody held a gun to his head. If I was Rider B, I couldn't care less what Rider A paid for his repair, or whether he paid at all. It's none of my business, and if Rider A got his repair for free, good on him. I'm satisfied in knowing that my money helped support the LBS, while Rider A didn't do a thing. No jealousy at all.

The same situation exists If I walk into a car dealership and negotiate a price of $50000 for a car, and then notice that another buyer who happens to be a longtime customer of that dealership getting the same car for $45000 with no haggling and free oil changes for 5 years. I'm not going to care. If a lower price and free oil changes were that important to me, I would have asked for them in the deal I made, and if the dealership refused, I would walk out and find another dealership that might be more amenable. It's basic economics.



> Problem is the App Guy is 9 times out of 10 in my experience the kid of person who'll expect it every time.


A bit of a contradiction there - App Guy is not going to expect anything extra if he's not aware of it.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Propofol said:


> A bit of a contradiction there - App Guy is not going to expect anything extra if he's not aware of it.



App guy isn't aware of any discount, but app guy will almost always ask for/expect a discount. I get that one pretty frequently.

People who expect or ask for discounts don't get them (in my store)....unless it's winter and I'm really broke.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

A few observations:

If one doesn't want to deal with dillholes...don't go into retail, because the majority of people who walk through your door will be dillholes in one respect or another. 

Seems like the people who are really successful are the ones who can tolerate the dillholes and make a profit of them and have them as customers. (Rather than someone like myself, who would give them a swift kick in the ass).

I've occasionally had the displeasure of being ion the company of dillholes. The dillholes often don't realize that they are being dillholes, and that that is the reason that they are not given discounts and freebies. They assume they're being "discriminated" against for some other (invented) reason. They just don't get it- that their behavior affects how they are treated/karma. Even if you explain it to them...they usually still can't grasp the concept. Ironically, it's the dillholes who will often pay the highest price for something.....as they are used to haggling not working for them. (Like one particular very paranoid one whom I'm thinking about as write this paragraph- a complete A-hole.....bought a $10K truck off of me and didn't even try to get a few dollars off....).

Moral of story: If you're in retail, you need to know how to deal with dillholes and cultivate them as customers. Though they have no loyalty and will gladly abandon you for someone else selling something for 10 cents less....they are ubiquitous and their money is green.

My rules on haggling: If something is priced way more than what I can get it for somewhere else, I'll give the seller a chance and try haggling. If the price is already good, or at least within reason, I won't haggle- I don't want to be a pig. If I don't know the value of something, and haven't looked at or am not familiar with other things that the guy sells to be able to judge whether his prices are fair or not, I'll assume he is over-priced and try haggling- "It can't hurt to ask".- Depending on the situation, I may appear to be a dillhole by doing this......so just because someone looks like a dillhole...doesn't always mean that they are. 

Example: I walk into an electric motor shop for a part for a pump. I am not familiar with the prices of any of his products...don't have a clue as to whether his prices are the bargain of the century or triple retail....so I try for a discount. If they guy's prices are indeed reasonable...I look like a pig. If his prices are high, I look like I know what I'm doing. The owner may or may not realize that I'm just a clueless person off the street and will base his opinion of me on whether he realizes that or whether he thinks I know better and am being a pig.

Moral: In retail, don't take it personally. Some people may really be dillholes..some may just seem to fit the part, but not actually be dillholes. It doesn't matter- you're not in business to make friends....you're in business to convert every walk-in into a sale...dillhole or not. Some people will assume that you (the business owner) are a dillhole.....your behavior will influence whether they see the reality or no. 

I've encountered people, who on first encounter I thought were dillholes...but who turned out to be fine people...and likewise, peoiple who seemed A-OK, but who in-fact were dillholes.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

HAHAH Dillhole! Look what I started!

Anyway, I worked in a couple of shops, and the best one was where the boss reserved the right to refuse service to dillholes. I saw more than one dillhole get shipped off with nothing but a "thank you! don't come again!" We had enough business to not have to deal with people's inconsiderate bullshit.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> We had enough business to not have to deal with people's inconsiderate bullshit.


Yes, because every bike shop has enough business to pick and choose who to sell their stuff to. That's a wonderful and successful business model there.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Yes, because every bike shop has enough business to pick and choose who to sell their stuff to. That's a wonderful and successful business model there.


Sorry if you are in the situation where you have to bend over a take it from entitled jerks...

Look, I have never met this Platypus guy and I am not trying to speak for him.

But frankly, I imagine if you are running a bike shop as a one man operation, you are doing it for more than just the money, there is some personal interest as well -- for bikes, for customers, etc. I am not running a shop, but if I were, personally, I wouldn't sell anything to someone who walks in and spits on the floor, or tries to pull some crap on me. No matter how good business is. My pride as a person is important to me. Not going to make compromises to my own esteem to sell some jackass a pair of gloves at discount when they obviously don't know how to be decent and isnt' the kind of customer you want walking into your shop long term anyway...whining about prices, pulling out the smart phone to haggle $3.00 off some socks, wasting your time that could be spent on customers with whom I have a healthier relationship, etc.

I think it has to do with being a part of something called a community.


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## knirb (Oct 9, 2011)

Very interesting and entertaining thread to say the least. My question is to Platypus - how do treat the customer who brings in a component purchased elsewhere and asks you to install it?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

knirb said:


> Very interesting and entertaining thread to say the least. My question is to Platypus - how do treat the customer who brings in a component purchased elsewhere and asks you to install it?


I charge them to install it. Something I don't normally do to people who buy the component from me.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> Sorry if you are in the situation where you have to bend over a take it from entitled jerks...


I'm not in that situation. I don't own a shop.



> But frankly, I imagine if you are running a bike shop as a one man operation, you are doing it for more than just the money, there is some personal interest as well -- for bikes, for customers, etc. I am not running a shop, but if I were, personally, I wouldn't sell anything to someone who walks in and spits on the floor, or tries to pull some crap on me. No matter how good business is. My pride as a person is important to me. Not going to make compromises to my own esteem to sell some jackass a pair of gloves at discount when they obviously don't know how to be decent and isnt' the kind of customer you want walking into your shop long term anyway...whining about prices, pulling out the smart phone to haggle $3.00 off some socks, wasting your time that could be spent on customers with whom I have a healthier relationship, etc.


This statement above only shows that you know nothing about retail sales and would be a terrible shop owner. Retail is a subset of the service industry and as such part of your duty as a successful retailer is to cater to the whims of the customer, to the best of your ability. There is no room in a retail business for pride. And how you see and treat customers should not be based on whether business is good or bad. Obviously there are extreme situations - spitting customers, people causing property damage, etc. - but these are the exception rather than the norm. And people checking/comparing prices on a smartphone in a store is pretty mainstream these days.

A good retailer treats all of his customers with friendliness and respect. Unless he is the only show in town and has a local monopoly, it doesn't matter if the customer is a saint or a dillhole, because a lost sale hurts the retailer more than it does the customer. If your shop has the luxury of being able to decide who gets the privilege of shopping with them, more power to them, but just wait and see when business slows down. They'll be happy to sell anything to anyone that comes into the shop - guaranteed.

You don't want to make "compromises to your self esteem", then stay out of the retail business, because you would suck at it.



> I think it has to do with being a part of something called a community.


Unless your business is being part of a community, then being part of a community has nothing to do with it. A business exists to make money, first and foremost. Being part of a community is not going to pay the lease on your shop or put food on your table.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> I'm not in that situation. I don't own a shop.
> 
> 
> This statement above only shows that you know nothing about retail sales and would be a terrible shop owner. Retail is a subset of the service industry and as such part of your duty as a successful retailer is to cater to the whims of the customer, to the best of your ability. There is no room in a retail business for pride. And how you see and treat customers should not be based on whether business is good or bad. Obviously there are extreme situations - spitting customers, people causing property damage, etc. - but these are the exception rather than the norm. And people checking/comparing prices on a smartphone in a store is pretty mainstream these days.
> ...


If that's how you really feel, I suggest you move to New York and get a job on Wall Street. If money is the only thing that matters to you, specialty retail is not a smart decision.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> If that's how you really feel, I suggest you move to New York and get a job on Wall Street. If money is the only thing that matters to you, specialty retail is not a smart decision.


You don't get it, do you.

First of all - my career is not in retail. I already mentioned that.

Second - without an operating profit, a business cannot exist to become part of a community. Period. So making money HAS to come first. When a store's books are in the black, only then can a business owner concern himself with being part of a community. Doing it the other way around doesn't work.

Nobody is saying being part of a community shouldn't be part of a business, but it is not a priority, especially for a specialty store. Financial stability comes first, and that means serving ALL of your customers, regardless of what you think of them personally.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> You don't get it, do you.
> 
> First of all - my career is not in retail. I already mentioned that.
> 
> ...


I don't get it? Some customers are a downright waste of time, and that's a fact. Should they still be served? Even if you are losing money serving them?


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> I don't get it? Some customers are a downright waste of time, and that's a fact. Should they still be served? Even if you are losing money serving them?


No, you don't get it.

How can a customer be a waste of time or a loss of money if you've served them? Meaning you've sold something to them, money and product has changed hands, and you've made a profit on the sale? Whether the buyer is a grade-A jerkass or the nicest person in the world makes no difference - you've made your profit off him. Done.

Now, if you're talking about spending time with a customer who comes in just to peruse product only to buy elsewhere, unless you've lost a sale to another customer who's waiting for your attention at the same time, you haven't wasted anything. THAT is a fact.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> No, you don't get it.
> 
> *How can a customer be a waste of time if you've served them?* Meaning you've sold something to them, money and product has changed hands, and you've made a profit on the sale? Whether the buyer is a grade-A jerkass or the nicest person in the world makes no difference - you've made your profit off him. Done.
> 
> Now, if you're talking about the customer who comes in just to peruse product only to buy elsewhere, unless you've lost a sale to another customer who's waiting for your attention at the same time, you haven't wasted anything. THAT is a fact.


Opportunity cost. Here is a simple example.

A customer can be a waste of time when you are running a one man operation, and you have _a good customer's_ bike in your stand you need to move out the door, and someone comes in with a smart phone and takes an hour of your time haggling for a couple of bucks. That particular customer is not going to be a reliable source of income, and they are taking away from you getting the repair done for the person who is _happy with high quality service_ and is willing to pay for it.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> Opportunity cost. Here is a simple example.
> 
> A customer can be a waste of time when you are running a one man operation, and you have _a good customer's_ bike in your stand you need to move out the door, and someone comes in with a smart phone and takes an hour of your time haggling for a couple of bucks. That particular customer is not going to be a reliable source of income, and they are taking away from you getting the repair done for the person who is _happy with high quality service_ and is willing to pay for it.


My response to this situation is that if you are unable to adequately spend time with ALL of your customers, then you shouldn't be a one-man operation. Hire someone to handle sales while you handle repairs. Problem solved.

The customer's demeanor has nothing to do with it - a customer is a customer. Saving a few dollars may be unimportant to you but for some it is a big deal. If you don't want to accept and deal with customers like that, then your business is screwed. That's all.

The bottom line is, any business owner that considers a customer as a waste of time, for any reason, is only shooting himself in the foot. The customer may be an ass or an idiot, but he has a lot more options to find and buy what he's looking for than the store owner has options to pick and choose who he wants to sell to.

Any more strawman arguments you'd like to bring up?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> My response to this situation is that if you are unable to adquately spend time with all of your customers, then you shouldn't be a one-man operation. *Hire someone to handle sales while you handle repairs. Problem solved.
> *
> The customer's demeanor has nothing to do with it - a customer is a customer. Saving a few dollars may be unimportant to you but for some it is a big deal. If you don't want to accept and deal with customers like that, then your business is screwed. That's all.
> 
> Any more strawman arguments you'd like to bring up?


That's a big jump in overhead to deal with a couple of flakes.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> That's a big jump in overhead to deal with a couple of flakes.


So what? If the repair is THAT important and profitable for the owner, then he should have the capacity to do repairs and promote sales at the same time. And it's not just flakes that will come into the store asking questions and taking up a salesman's time. You going to call everyone who comes into the store a flake now?

See, I can come up with stupid scenarios too. How about if the store owner is working on a repair, and someone comes in, politely refuses assistance, and quietly starts browsing merchandise on his own. Then he starts checking prices on his smartphone while looking at merchandise in the store, and then walks out? How much of the owner's time has that person wasted? None.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> So what? If the repair is THAT important and profitable for the owner, then he should have the capacity to do repairs and promote sales at the same time. And it's not just flakes that will come into the store asking questions and taking up a salesman's time. You going to call everyone who comes into the store a flake now?
> 
> See, I can come up with stupid scenarios too. How about if the store owner is working on a repair, and someone comes in, politely refuses assistance, and quietly starts browsing merchandise on his own. Then he starts checking prices on his smartphone while looking at merchandise in the store, and then walks out? How much of the owner's time has that person wasted? None.


And your point is...


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> And your point is...


My point is, your expectation of how retail businesses should operate and how all customers should behave may work in your utopian dream-world, but in the real world businesses have economic realities to deal with first and foremost, and most can't afford to be elitist and choose who they want to be their customers. Customers choose THEM. If a retail business starts deciding who is and isn't a waste of their time, the only people they hurt is themselves. But hey if that's how you want to run your business, good luck to you and start looking for another industry to work in, because you won't last long.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> My point is, your expectation of how retail businesses should operate and how all customers should behave may work in your utopian dream-world, but in the real world businesses have economic realities to deal with first and foremost, and most can't afford to be elitist and choose who they want to be their customers. Customers choose THEM. If a retail business starts deciding who is and isn't a waste of their time, the only people they hurt is themselves. But hey if that's how you want to run your business, good luck to you and start looking for another industry to work in, because you won't last long.


Hahaha. You sound like someone you registered for an MBA and dropped out after the first 2 weeks of economics 101.

"Demand, supply, customers, profit, got it! This is really simple!"


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> Hahaha. You sound like someone you registered for an MBA and dropped out after the first 2 weeks of economics 101.
> 
> "Demand, supply, customers, profit, got it! This is really simple!"


OK, then please educate us on what I've stated that was so wrong. What economic principles have I misinterpreted? And what experience have you had running a business?

If anything, you are the one who sounds like you've failed out of business school.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> OK, then please educate us on what I've stated that was so wrong. What economic principles have I misinterpreted? And what experience have you had running a business?
> 
> If anything, you are the one who sounds like you've failed out of business school.


I have no experience what-so-ever. However, I think I should probably do a little bit of CBA on this thread and re-assess my personal investment into it.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> I have no experience what-so-ever. However, I think I should probably do a little bit of CBA on this thread and re-assess my personal investment into it.


I think that's a good idea, as your views on the subject are pretty unrealistic. And the fact that you're mocking my discussion of basic economics when you have no knowledge of it yourself is laughable.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> I think that's a good idea, as your views on the subject are pretty unrealistic. *And the fact that you're mocking my discussion of basic economics when you have no knowledge of it yourself is laughable*.


If you enjoyed my posts, don't forget to give me some positive rep.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> If you enjoyed my posts, don't forget to give me some positive rep.


Sorry, not going to happen. Uneducated, misinformed posts are not enjoyable.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Sorry, not going to happen. Uneducated, misinformed posts are not enjoyable.


Pot, meet Mr Kettle!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Sorry, not going to happen. Uneducated, misinformed posts are not enjoyable.


Wait, this isn't enjoyable for you?ut:


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

Well, I repped Foto. I vote for Dillhole as a new Lounge meme: sign your name here if you agree:


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> Pot, meet Mr Kettle!


Then perhaps you can answer the question that foto refused to answer. What exactly have I said that is so wrong?



> Wait, this isn't enjoyable for you?


Sure, having a discussion here is enjoyable. Reading your ignorant posts isn't.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Then perhaps you can answer the question that foto refused to answer. What exactly have I said that is so wrong?
> 
> 
> Sure, having a discussion here is enjoyable. Reading your ignorant posts isn't.


Yikes, I hope you are getting paid well to read my posts. Otherwise, doing something you dislike without getting paid is a pretty poor business practice.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

foto said:


> Yikes, I hope you are getting paid well to read my posts. Otherwise, doing something you dislike without getting paid is a pretty poor business practice.


Agreed. However, this isn't what I do for a living so not getting paid for this is not a big deal. Are YOU getting paid for acting like an imbecile here?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Actually, yes. I get a full pro ride from Bikes Direct.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

Got it. So in other words, you're one of those dillholes that screws over your LBS.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)




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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

qatarbhoy said:


> *Well, I repped Foto.* I vote for Dillhole as a new Lounge meme: sign your name here if you agree:


I did too.

I'll vote for it.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

I think the message of this entire thread can be summed up with this:

All shop's svck big elephant Dycks...except for Platy's.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

BostonG said:


> I think the message of this entire thread can be summed up with this:
> 
> All shop's svck big elephant Dycks...except for Platy's.


No, I know of a few others that don't suck.

The Hub of Aspen
Bikesmith's (Bloomington)
Wheat Ridge Cyclery
Gray Goat Sports (Indy)
Virtuous Cycles (Lafayette)
Pedal House (Laramie, WY)

There are more, of course...


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> No, I know of a few others that don't suck.
> 
> The Hub of Aspen
> Bikesmith's (Bloomington)
> ...


Any in Baaaahhhhhhstan?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

BostonG said:


> Any in Baaaahhhhhhstan?


I only worked in Boston for a week (Framingham, actually), so I didn't have time to search out any bike shops. Sorry.

I did go down to the Bahhh in my Cahhh and had a bee-ahhhhh.


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## JohnnyG (Nov 22, 2011)

I enjoyed reading All the above threads ... This is the problem ... In my neck of woods - RI ... Yes plenty of LBS's ... Here is the problem - Prices Hi - msrp ... Most LBS discount 7%-10% - is a Joke IMO- when RI sales tax is 7% ... Most, well pretty much all of them - LBS have So So bike service ... + they - LBS have that mindset that you doing then the favor by spending your $$$$ @ their shop ... Then you have the LBS owners drama example - One lbs has one shop, opens a second shop in the same city as the rival shop ... Now both these lbs have two shops ... Another Great lbs story - It happen to a friend of mine ... I friend of mine started dealing with this lbs - So he buys a RL 29er frame from them - pays them to build it up ... So my friend cracks his frame - not even one season old ... RL has a lifetime warr on its frames ... So how does this lbs handle this ... Jerks my friend around - story changes every day about his frame ... Until - Note I was so pis*ed off by this - pretty much all or the MTB & road guys are on each others FB - so everyone knows what's going on ... So I called out the Tool lbs on a FB thread ... It took 5 month !!! Yes five months which is total BS ... Note - another local guy - note - He bought a complete RL MTB ... Cracked the frame & in five days was back on a New frame ... I guess my friend should have spent more $$$$$ to get treated right ...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

JohnnyG said:


> I enjoyed reading All the above threads ... This is the problem ... In my neck of woods - RI ... Yes plenty of LBS's ... Here is the problem - Prices Hi - msrp ... Most LBS discount 7-10% - is a Joke IMO when RI sales tax is 7% ... Most, well pretty much all of them - LBS have So So bike service ... + they - LBS have that mindset that you doing then the favor by spending your $$$$ @ their shop ... Then you have the LBS owners drama example - One lbs has one shop, opens a second shop in the same city as the rival shop ... Now both these lbs have two shops ... Another Great lbs story - It happen to a friend of mine ... I friend of mine started dealing with this lbs - So he buys a RL 29er frame from them - pays them to build it up ... So my friend cracks his frame - not even one season old ... RL has a lifetime warr on its frames ... So how does this lbs handle this ... Jerks my friend around - story changes every day about his frame ... Until - Note I was so pis*ed off by this - pretty much all or the MTB & road guys are on each others FB - so everyone knows what's going on ... So I called out the Tool lbs on a FB thread ... It took 5 month !!! Yes fives months which is total BS ... Note - another local guy - note - He bought a complete RL MTB not a frame ... Broke his frame ... Had it warr - replaced in 5 days ... I could go on and on about most of the LBS about their Hi prices, blowing people off on warr stuff & shi**y bike work ... This is my take on the whole LBS thing ... Treat everyone! who walks in your shop well ... Try to match on-line prices, do Great not good bike work ... Lose that - I'm special because I own, run, or work @ a lbs - because your not ... A true story ... I just got back into road after 22 years ... I been MTB for the last 5 ... So when looking for a road bike ... One shop was $300 off msrp their other shop was $200 off msrp ... The other LBS their # one rival was $400 off msrp on a left over bike ... So went on-line to RealCyclists saved $1020.00 off msrp + free shipping on a complete built, tunned bike ... So I needed to be fitted for my bike & cleats ... Did my research on finding a Good lbs - Not a easy thing around here ... Lol ... A friend of mine had said he knew a guy who was really Good ... So went to this guy - Amos.Brumble @ Brumble Bikes ... All I can say is WoW !!! Was blow away by his mech skills - The guy used a bike torque wrench ... See around here the other lbs they can tell torque by hand ... So I bring my bike to this guy + parts I bought- carbon bars & stem , water bottle cages, chain catcher, pedals, Cass, Note all stuff I bought on-line ... Pretty much the only things I bought from him were bar tape,cables & cable housing, and labor ... He- Amos the lbs owner was very Cool & down to earth - Not that I'm God ... I own a lbs ... Lol ... Did Great work on my bike ... Never once complained about on-line & on-line prices ... Said - if he can match prices he will ... Here is a guy who Gets it ... Takes Great pride in his craft / trade - Note doesn't have that lbs bow down to me I'm God attitude ... That's why I will go back to him & buy some stuff - big ticket items from him ... In todays horrible economy ... people are gonna be more careful & wise were they spend their $$$$ ... So IMO alot lbs are gonna have to get better all the way around or lose more & more business ...












Please look up "sentences" and "paragraphs". Does your brain really hop around like that all the time? If so, you might want to cut down on the crack.

However.... tl;dr.


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## Teamfour (Jan 11, 2012)

^+100


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## JohnnyG (Nov 22, 2011)

Lol ... Was done on a smart phone ... Another Geek LBS owner / Tool ... Amazing comeback !!!


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Still irrelevant. Nobody forced Rider B to take his bike into that particular store to have his bike repaired, and if he paid for the repair you can assume he was satisfied with the work and agreed to pay the set price for it before any work was started. In other words, nobody held a gun to his head. If I was Rider B, I couldn't care less what Rider A paid for his repair, or whether he paid at all. It's none of my business, and if Rider A got his repair for free, good on him. I'm satisfied in knowing that my money helped support the LBS, while Rider A didn't do a thing. No jealousy at all.
> 
> The same situation exists If I walk into a car dealership and negotiate a price of $50000 for a car, and then notice that another buyer who happens to be a longtime customer of that dealership getting the same car for $45000 with no haggling and free oil changes for 5 years. I'm not going to care. If a lower price and free oil changes were that important to me, I would have asked for them in the deal I made, and if the dealership refused, I would walk out and find another dealership that might be more amenable. It's basic economics.
> 
> ...


You're missing the point. Neither customer was a regular, so the "on the house" was a pleasant surprise for that customer. It's one of those things that make life a bit better.

Dillholes are living, if that's the right word, proof of the veracity of the expression "They know the price of everything and the value of nothing".


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## ARE. (Jul 29, 2011)

I repped you too, foto. I think its laughable that the guy with admittedly no retail experience has so much advice to offer on how retail should work.....

I've had great, good and bad LBS experiences, and I also shop online. But to the people that walk into a shop and say that they are being "screwed" or "gouged" because the shop has priced an item much higher than what they can buy it for online...that's just stupid. Think of all the things you are paying for that online shopping does not provide: instant access; actual service; products that can been touched, tested or sampled; a return policy; more certainty as to quality and materials used.... Need I go on? If none of these things have value to you, than by all means, buy online, but it doesn't mean the shop is "gouging".

Personally, I value a relationship with many of my LOCAL merchants (not just bike related), and quite often am willing to pay a bit more in that regard. I'm not rich, but can afford it.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

ARE. said:


> I repped you too, foto. I think its laughable that the guy with admittedly no retail experience has so much advice to offer on how retail should work.....
> 
> I've had great, good and bad LBS experiences, and I also shop online. But to the people that walk into a shop and say that they are being "screwed" or "gouged" because the shop has priced an item much higher than what they can buy it for online...that's just stupid. *Think of all the things you are paying for that online shopping does not provide: instant access; actual service; products that can been touched, tested or sampled; a return policy; more certainty as to quality and materials used.... Need I go on?* If none of these things have value to you, than by all means, buy online, but it doesn't mean the shop is "gouging".
> 
> Personally, I value a relationship with many of my LOCAL merchants (not just bike related), and quite often am willing to pay a bit more in that regard. I'm not rich, but can afford it.


Also, sometimes when I am out on my bike, like riding trails or something, I see the people from the shop!  Boy, am I glad I don't walk into their place of business and act like a total dillhole.

There's that community thing again...


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Then perhaps you can answer the question that foto refused to answer. What exactly have I said that is so wrong?.


Not so much wrong, just painting it in black and white. 



> Unless your business is being part of a community, then being part of a community has nothing to do with it. A business exists to make money, first and foremost. Being part of a community is not going to pay the lease on your shop or put food on your table.





> You don't get it, do you.
> 
> First of all - my career is not in retail. I already mentioned that.
> 
> ...


Community is everything. I'm not talking about free this that and the other, I'm talking about connecting with people. If they like you they're more likely to give you their business. They may not buy the first time they visit, but they will eventually if their normal people.

I chose to work in the cycle trade. In the intervening 19 years I've developed the ability to size up potential customers so I don't waste time with people who aren't going to spend their money in the store I work in. That's not to say I ignore them, far from it. I just don't get sucked into spending too much time on them. They won't have a clue that it's happening because I'm polite about it.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

I think location plays a big part in the LBS scenario, too. The shops I dealt with on Long Island always seemed like gyp-joints....but I can understand WHY their prices had to be very high, as it is a very expensive place to do business- I can't imagine even making enough to pay the rent on a store there, just selling bikes and accessories. No way is any shop in a place like that going to cmpete pricewise with Amazon. On the other hand, where I now live, one can rent a store for peanuts....so the many thousands of dollars a month saved could translate easily into much lower prices (Trouble is, here, there may be two or three serious adult cyclists in the whole county- if that). 

I've definitely enjoyed this thread. Some people on either side have some unrealistic ideas....and some have the right idea..... but as I've said before, the hardest part is getting them to come through the door. Once they're there, hal;f the battle is won...the smart businessman uses the opportunity to make a sale or at least to prime the pump for a future sale by being nice to even the dillholes [I've always used "dillweed"...but when in Rome...] because everyone who walks through that door is either a customer...a potential customer or someone who will never return. You can largely make the difference that will determine which of those the biological unit will be.....but it costs a lot of money to get people to walk through that door (advertising, signage, displays, etc.) so for anyone who owns a retail business, the idea is to not waste an opportunity- even to the person using your store as a virtual showroom...because if you treat him nice, he WILL be back one day and make a purchase. Maybe he wants to save $10 on a helmet or set of pedals....but when he wants to buy that new Felt or needs work done, he'll remember where he had the good experience. 

The businesses I've been loyal to, are the ones that are run by guys who are so nice that you WANT to give them business....the ones who are nice even if you're just in there to look or to buy a fifty-cent item. Like the local NAPA auto parts store here...I have no qualms paying two or three dollars more for parts there, because they give such great service...never make me wait...are very friendly and helpful, etc. Autozone is right across the street....but I realize the value I get for the extra few bucks at NAPA, so I became a loyal customer (Of course, I'm not a dillweed though....I think it proper to pay for the extra service I get).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> I think location plays a big part in the LBS scenario, too. The shops I dealt with on Long Island always seemed like gyp-joints....but I can understand WHY their prices had to be very high, as it is a very expensive place to do business- I can't imagine even making enough to pay the rent on a store there, just selling bikes and accessories. No way is any shop in a place like that going to cmpete pricewise with Amazon. On the other hand, where I now live, one can rent a store for peanuts....so the many thousands of dollars a month saved could translate easily into much lower prices (Trouble is, here, there may be two or three serious adult cyclists in the whole county- if that).
> 
> I've definitely enjoyed this thread. Some people on either side have some unrealistic ideas....and some have the right idea..... but as I've said before, the hardest part is getting them to come through the door. Once they're there, hal;f the battle is won...the smart businessman uses the opportunity to make a sale or at least to prime the pump for a future sale by being nice to even the dillholes [I've always used "dillweed"...but when in Rome...] because everyone who walks through that door is either a customer...a potential customer or someone who will never return. You can largely make the difference that will determine which of those the biological unit will be.....but it costs a lot of money to get people to walk through that door (advertising, signage, displays, etc.) so for anyone who owns a retail business, the idea is to not waste an opportunity- even to the person using your store as a virtual showroom...because if you treat him nice, he WILL be back one day and make a purchase. Maybe he wants to save $10 on a helmet or set of pedals....but when he wants to buy that new Felt or needs work done, he'll remember where he had the good experience.
> 
> The businesses I've been loyal to, are the ones that are run by guys who are so nice that you WANT to give them business....the ones who are nice even if you're just in there to look or to buy a fifty-cent item. Like the local NAPA auto parts store here...I have no qualms paying two or three dollars more for parts there, because they give such great service...never make me wait...are very friendly and helpful, etc. Autozone is right across the street....but I realize the value I get for the extra few bucks at NAPA, so I became a loyal customer (Of course, *I'm not a dillweed though*....I think it proper to pay for the extra service I get).


Spoken like true dillhole.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Propofol said:


> OK, then please educate us on what I've stated that was so wrong. What economic principles have I misinterpreted? And what experience have you had running a business?
> 
> If anything, you are the one who sounds like you've failed out of business school.


Your supposition that you should just hire someone to handle sales, in order to maintain a value-add bike repair business is valid, but only if you have sufficient sales volume to cover the increased wages, payroll / unemployment taxes and the cost/time of preparing the payroll and associated tax filings, and the time and effort required to manage that person, or persons, no matter how good they are.

There will be a point at which this becomes economically viable, i.e., incremental to the bottom line, even if you only maintain this extra help during the busy season. But it is not a slam dunk "just do it" proposition.

Oh, and I did graduate from a very good business school, have over 25 years in the accounting field, have worked with small businesses to improve their bottom line, specialize in Cost Accounting, and am currently a Controller in a Fortune 100 company.

Just thought I'd go ahead and get that out of the way.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

qatarbhoy said:


> Well, I repped Foto. I vote for Dillhole as a new Lounge meme: sign your name here if you agree:


Dillhole
Bafoon
Moreon

It's so hard to choose anymore!


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I only worked in Boston for a week (Framingham, actually), so I didn't have time to search out any bike shops. Sorry.
> 
> I did go down to the Bahhh in my Cahhh and had a bee-ahhhhh.


Did you have any Cahhhda?


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

If many of you think LBS's are bad listen to this:

Yesterday, I ordered a Castelli Trasparente Long Sleeve jersey(it's more like a coat) in red, from an LBS that also has a website. It was IN stock when I ordered. Today, I get an email from the owner saying it was no longer in stock but what he could do was offer me a Cannondale Slice Jersey in blue, as a replacement at the same price! Nevermind the fact that not only does the Castelli Jersey retail for about $50 dollars more, or that their on sale price for the Cannondale jersey was almost $20 dollars less than what I just bought, or even that they are not remotely similar in quality or color,it also fits completely different and does not use even close to the same materials. I obviously declined but as of now, I have yet to receive a refund or hear back from him even though he said he would be right back with me. I've since done some research and this store actually receives a lot of complaints. 
Anyway, my point is, you can get shady or bad service through any medium, it's not just LBS's(I'm aware this store is also an LBS but runs a full website). Oh, and by the way, Platy is an awesome owner and I've had nothing but good dealings with him.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Are you talking about foto or me? Because it appears neither of us has retail experience.
> 
> However, I've owned my own business for the last 8 years now, so I like to think I have some experience in business. What part of anything I've said in this thread do you disagree with, and why?


We'd need to see the accounts before passing judgement on the validity of your experience. :wink:


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ARE. said:


> I repped you too, foto. I think its laughable that the guy with admittedly no retail experience has so much advice to offer on how retail should work.


Are you talking about foto or me? Because it appears neither of us has retail experience.

However, I've owned my own business for the last 8 years now, so I like to think I have some experience in business. What part of anything I've said in this thread do you disagree with, and why?


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

foto said:


> Spoken like true dillhole.


Now THAT'S saying something, coming from an expert on dillholes!


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

Don4 said:


> Your supposition that you should just hire someone to handle sales, in order to maintain a value-add bike repair business is valid, but only if you have sufficient sales volume to cover the increased wages, payroll / unemployment taxes and the cost/time of preparing the payroll and associated tax filings, and the time and effort required to manage that person, or persons, no matter how good they are.
> 
> There will be a point at which this becomes economically viable, i.e., incremental to the bottom line, even if you only maintain this extra help during the busy season. But it is not a slam dunk "just do it" proposition.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with what you've said. Obviously my suggestion is merely a response to a very specific theoretical scenario brought up by foto. I think I have the right to be as unrealistic as he is.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> We'd need to see the accounts before passing judgement on the validity of your experience. :wink:


I'd be happy to, if you can come up with a way to do it without compromising my privacy. And of course, you'd have to supply your own list of verifiable qualifications to let me decide if you are even capable of passing judgement.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Propofol said:


> Totally agree with what you've said. *Obviously my suggestion is merely a response to a very specific theoretical scenario brought up by foto.* I think I have the right to be as unrealistic as he is.


Oh right, _obviously_.

Oh wait, hold on a second. WTF are you talking about? "Very specific theoretical scenario"?

I think it is time for me to let loose a little, taking life too seriously for word.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Propofol said:


> I'd be happy to, if you can come up with a way to do it without compromising my privacy. And of course, you'd have to supply your own list of verifiable qualifications to let me decide if you are even capable of passing judgement.


I'll just get one of my customers to check em over. They all work in the City.


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## JohnnyG (Nov 22, 2011)

I can 100% say ... I've had better dealings with on-line shops than lbs ... On-line is Big business, Big $$$$ and rep is everything ... Great under msrp pricing, shipping - cheap or free, price match, returns - No problem !!! No Q's asked, Great info, True story the biggest lbs in RI ... I know guys that bought new MTB frames / Bikes , wheels, stuff they had warr issues with ... The lbs took the $$$$ & run ... Told all these guys contact the maker of the product ... Nice ... Real Nice ... Same lbs - my friends brother saves his hard $$$ for a year buys a Brand new Santa Cruz Heckler complete bike - @ msrp ... Not even a few months old fork goes ... Note - The lbs had the Balls ... To charge him labor ???? When the warr parts for fork came in ... + The mech who built his bike did a pretty bad job ... Note - He had to bring it back multiple times for stuff that was BS ... Note - If the bike was built right and tested & QC done ... The poor kid wouldn't be making wasted trip to the lbs ... :mad2::mad2::mad2:


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

JohnnyG said:


> I can 100% say ... I've had better dealings with on-line shops than lbs ... On-line is Big business Big $$$$ and rep is everything ... Great under msrp pricing, shipping - cheap or free, price match, returns - No problem !!! No Q's asked, Great info, True story the biggest lbs in RI ... I know guys that bought new MTB frames / Bikes , wheels, stuff they had warr issues with ... The lbs took the $$$$ & run ... Told all these guys contact the maker of the product ... Nice ... Real Nice ... Same lbs - my friends brother saves his hard $$$ for a year buys a Brand new Santa Cruz Heckler complete bike - @ msrp ... Not even a few months old fork goes ... Note - The lbs had the Balls ... To charge him labor ???? When the warr parts for fork came in ... + The mech who built his bike did a pretty bad job ... Note - He had to bring it back multiple times for stuff that was BS ... Note - If the bike was built right and tested & QC done ... The poor kid wouldn't be making wasted trip to the lbs ...


I smell BS.

There's warranty and there's my bike broke. They are not the same. Just because a part broke does not mean it is a valid warranty claim. A warranty protects you the customer in the event the item was defective in manufacture or materials. Nothing is indestructible, but many customers want light, strong AND cheap. You can't have it all.

Keith Bontrager summed it up best. "Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick Two." Ever wonder why Marzocchi DH forks were double the price of Rock Shox?

Oh, and RTFM. Warranty covers parts not labour.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> I'll just get one of my customers to check em over. They all work in the City.


Heh, thanks for the offer but not quite good enough.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

JohnnyG said:


> I can 100% say ... I've had better dealings with on-line shops than lbs ... On-line is Big business, Big $$$$ and rep is everything ... Great under msrp pricing, shipping - cheap or free, price match, returns - No problem !!! No Q's asked, Great info, True story the biggest lbs in RI ... I know guys that bought new MTB frames / Bikes , wheels, stuff they had warr issues with ... The lbs took the $$$$ & run ... Told all these guys contact the maker of the product ... Nice ... Real Nice ... Same lbs - my friends brother saves his hard $$$ for a year buys a Brand new Santa Cruz Heckler complete bike - @ msrp ... Not even a few months old fork goes ... Note - The lbs had the Balls ... To charge him labor ???? When the warr parts for fork came in ... + The mech who built his bike did a pretty bad job ... Note - He had to bring it back multiple times for stuff that was BS ... Note - If the bike was built right and tested & QC done ... The poor kid wouldn't be making wasted trip to the lbs ... :mad2::mad2::mad2:


tl; dr

If you can't type decently on a smartphone then wait until you get on a desktop. Your posts look like absolute crap.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

wait a second. Johnny G??? Are you the famous John Gomac? The professional rollerblader from the early-mid 90s????

OMG!!!

I had heard his friend's brother's cousin was saving up to buy a Heckler in RollerTimes! I didn't know you posted on here. For those that don't know John Gomac used to crush the pro rollerblading fields in all disciplines: 'round town, at the beach, cruising the park, you name it! He was like some kind of fruit boot GOD!!!


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## JohnnyG (Nov 22, 2011)

WoW - You sound just like a LBS - Priceless !!! It was a RS Fork on a " Brand New " S/C Heckler complete bike ... Not a light bike - & All Mountain bike ... RS fork had issues - only a few months old ... Note - He did not break the fork ... Hey nice Typical LBS talk - Saying you're Beat ... After spending your $$$$ Priceless Bro !!!


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

JohnnyG said:


> WoW - You sound just like a LBS - Priceless !!! It was a RS Fork on a " Brand New " S/C Heckler complete bike ... Not a light bike - & All Mountain bike ... RS fork had issues - only a few months old ... Note - He did not break the fork ... Hey nice Typical LBS talk - Saying you're Beat ... After spending your $$$$ Priceless Bro !!!


If there is an issue with a product I have sold that is not as a result of abuse/misuse I am known for my tenacity in going to bat for my customer. Just don't tar all LBSs with the same brush.

Not beat, just have a more pragmatic attitude than you have, sunshine!


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## JohnnyG (Nov 22, 2011)

Thank you ... You made my point 100% ... First must be the buyers fault - Your first post ... & labor not covered under warr stuff ... Hmmmmm It's called doing the right thing ... LBSs complain about people wanting below msrp prices ... Person pays full msrp ... LBS nickels & dimes on warr stuff ... Double standard ... Makes total sense now ...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

So, do you still skate, Dude?


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

JohnnyG said:


> Thank you ... You made my point 100% ... First must be the buyers fault - Your first post ... & labor not covered under warr stuff ... Hmmmmm It's called doing the right thing ...


See, now you're talking just like one of the dillholes that we've been discussing here. Lose the entitlement attitude and maybe more people will have sympathy for you.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> Don4 said:
> 
> 
> > Dillhole
> ...


Only if your a bafoonish moreon, dillhole.

Johnny G: your posts are unreadable, and when I do read them, they are not worth reading.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

My LBS just went out of business. 

Now the only thing I can complain about is the a-hole who spams craigslist DAILY with POSs and walmart bikes at 10% above retail. 

17" WOMAN'S SCHWINN MOUNTAIN BICYCLE
BIKES BIKES AND MORE BIKES

Yes, he's selling a $119 Mongoose from walmart. It's used and he wants $135 for it. He's had it on craigslist every day for two months.


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## bob.satan (Jun 2, 2011)

Stories of LBS's that are not in the US, but Asia. 

I currently live in Singapore, where there is a huge number of bike shops. I moved to a new place, closer to work and decided that communting was the way to go. First ride, read dropout snapped in two, not a huge issue, I will just walk it to the closest shop and get them to rpelace it, at the same time, also get them to do a few other jobs, use this a test to see if they were any good as i was in the market for a new road bike.

First shop - cannot lah (for those that don't no singlish, this is the standard no response), this is a GT and we don't handle GT's. My obvious question, why not, just ring the rep and get the part? repsonse, we don't handle GT. This shop has Fuji as there big brand.

Second shop - similar repsonse. This shop was a bit more open with the reponse nd I found out that due to the fact that this is a small place, the importers of the brands will generally sell the bikes themselves, out of their own shops and refuse to speak to other shops, which is legal.

Third shop - the GT importer. not a problem, except for the fact that they were 16 km's away (and on an island that is only 42km from east to west, that is a big distance). They fixed things and off I rode. the proce of the parts weren't too bad, because they were the importer and thus were making the big margin on wholesale to retail and cutting out a middleman. the beauty that labour is also signifcantly cheaper helps out

I have ended up finding a LBS signifcantly close to me than the 3rd shop but further than the first two, who ended up scoring the cash on a lot of upgrades for the mountain bike (not being a GT dealer hasn't stopped them in any way shape or form so ...) and having a seven made. they give me a good discount and their prices are competiitve with the english online shops CRC et al. before the discount.

We also see some strange things with the placement of bike shops here. In Australia (and I asusme in the US as well), bike shops will generally have an "area" that they are in, and be the only one there. Maybe not in the middel of a city, where the population is different, but it is rare to see them "next to each other.

Here, there is one area, 10km's from the city centre, where there are five (5) bicycle shops in the space of 100m. Not little ma and pa jobs, these are the importers flagship stores, with coverage of Cannondale, specialised, GT, scott, bianchi etc. If you want to waste a couple of hours then this is the place to go. 

the only things that I will buy online now are clothes. it is incredibly hard to find my size in asia, so it is my only way.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

qatarbhoy said:


> Only if your a bafoonish moreon, dillhole.
> 
> Johnny G: your posts are unreadable, and when I do read them, they are not worth reading.


FWIW, about 98% of my poasts are keyed into my iPhone with my right thumb. You'll note I _generally_ employ sentences, paragraphs, and sometimes, emoticons.  :thumbsup:

Said poasts are not necessarily worth reading, but at least are easier to read than Faulkner.

Oh, and "poasts" is intentionally misspelled. Remember your roots, I always say.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

bob.satan said:


> Stories of LBS's that are not in the US, but Asia.
> 
> I currently live in Singapore, where there is a huge number of bike shops. I moved to a new place, closer to work and decided that communting was the way to go. First ride, read dropout snapped in two, not a huge issue, I will just walk it to the closest shop and get them to rpelace it, at the same time, also get them to do a few other jobs, use this a test to see if they were any good as i was in the market for a new road bike.
> 
> ...


Interesting. That's kind of how car dealerships are in the U.S.

It's really interesting to hear how things are elsewhere.

Are bike very popular in Singapore? Do people tend to have bikes rather than cars, due to the relatively small distances?


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Here in the US, bike shops are not all that common. They tend to be far apart- even in densely populated places like New York City. Where I live, there are exactly two within a 100 mile radius.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

JohnnyG said:


> Thank you ... You made my point 100% ... First must be the buyers fault - Your first post ... & labor not covered under warr stuff ... Hmmmmm It's called doing the right thing ... LBSs complain about people wanting below msrp prices ... Person pays full msrp ... LBS nickels & dimes on warr stuff ... Double standard ... Makes total sense now ...


Nope. I was merely pointing out that it is not always a straightforward warranty issue. Sometimes stuff does break. WRT the labour issue, check the small print. Labour is normally expressly excluded from being covered. However, any shop worth its salt will cover the cost as a gesture of good will.


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## bob.satan (Jun 2, 2011)

Don4 said:


> Interesting. That's kind of how car dealerships are in the U.S.
> 
> It's really interesting to hear how things are elsewhere.
> 
> Are bike very popular in Singapore? Do people tend to have bikes rather than cars, due to the relatively small distances?


It is a funny little place, it is 120km around the island, which is the common saturday morning ride. You have to start this ride at 6am, as it is already 25 degree celcius at this time, at 10, it is around 30 in 80% humidity, so it is best to be in the coffee shop

cars dominate the place. They are a status symbol. To own a car atm, you have to pay a (lack of a better term) tax of $68,000 even before you get the car! it is $1,800 for a motorcycle. the total price for a Toyota Camry is around $130K

There is a reasonable community here for riding, that is mainly based around Triathons. There is also a split between locals and expats in the cycling groups, but the bigger groups have just been set up to appeal to the different pasts of the community.

people dont really commute

the number of super high end bikes is unbelievable. S-Works is very common and red and dure-ace is seen everywhere. Both red and dura-ace mechanical are built here, so the prices compare to the US a lot (and the US is by far and away the cheapest in the world)

there is also quite a strong second hand /grey import market, and you can pick up a lot of things cheaper than online. the proximity to China make this a lot easier.


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

SolitaryRider said:


> Here in the US, bike shops are not all that common. They tend to be far apart- even in densely populated places like New York City. Where I live, there are exactly two within a 100 mile radius.


I'm not sure I agree with that. I've lived in several different areas, large and small that have had 6-8 shops within a 20 mile radius. In the area I live now, there are 8 shops within 25 miles.


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## CyclingVirtual (Apr 10, 2008)

I think its always the case that smaller purchases get more profit margin added on, shoppers are less likely to shop around for the smaller items.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

Hey Bob.Satan, try TEF Bikers Junction alone Thomson Rd. Very good service, no "cannot lah" schtick from them.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bghill said:


> You sound like a big F*%@%!^ crybaby. Glad I don't shop at your LBS. (Local Bulls$#t Shop)



You're so cute when you try to act all grown up!


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## bghill (Apr 5, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> It isn't checking prices that pisses me off. It's ONLY the Amazon app.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that if people ask, I check prices for them online anyway (Google shopping search). Then I'll try to match the averaged price as close as I can.


You sound like a big F*%@%!^ crybaby. Glad I don't shop at your LBS. (Local Bulls$#t Shop)


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

bghill said:


> You sound like a big F*%@%!^ crybaby. Glad I don't shop at your LBS. (Local Bulls$#t Shop)


You CLEARLY need more fluffy puppies and sunshine in your life.

View attachment 249420


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Don4 said:


> You CLEARLY need more fluffy puppies and sunshine in your life.
> 
> View attachment 249420


Judging from his other posts, he's just mad because he doesn't get the special deals at the bike shops near him.....


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Judging from his other posts, he's just mad because he doesn't get the special deals at the bike shops near him.....


Hmmm. If that's it, he should move. At least that's one solution.


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## JohnnyG (Nov 22, 2011)

Hmmmmm ... Because lbss offer better deals than on-line ???? I don't think so LMAO !!! Lbs owners cry about the on-line places taking $$$$$ away from them. RI - not a big state @ all. Had two Spes dealers, kind of spread out. Note - not right next to each other. The two lbss, that each have two shops. Right next to each other. One was a Spes & Trek dealer the other was not. Guess who has Spes now ??? So you have three lbss that have Spes bikes. Boy !!! Talk about getting the Shaft from one of your venders.  :cryin::cryin::cryin:


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

I know that for myself, personally, I'm really missing out on sunshine and that makes me cranky, but this is partially offset by a double share of fluffy puppies. That and I get good deals at my LBS's. And last I checked, Mya D. Shopcat and I are still friends.


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## scryan (Jan 24, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Judging from his other posts, he's just mad because he doesn't get the special deals at the bike shops near him.....


Half your posts are acting likw an ass too man... Not really sure how you got in a position to judge... I guess because your better know?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

scryan said:


> Half your posts are acting likw an ass too man... Not really sure how you got in a position to judge... I guess because your better know?



I can judge because I AM an ass....


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## bob.satan (Jun 2, 2011)

Sasquatch said:


> Hey Bob.Satan, try TEF Bikers Junction alone Thomson Rd. Very good service, no "cannot lah" schtick from them.


I use Soon Watt and Co on Changi rd, Mave and the boys look after me good. i have ridden past TEF, but never gone in. i live in the east and Soon Watt is on my ride home from work (and they are the seven dealer)

have you noticed how many bike shops have opened in the past 3 months? I know of three, and given that there were already about 40 of them here...


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## tonedepear (Jul 2, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> I can judge because I AM an ass....


Good answer!

I for one am happy to pay a bit of a premium to have something right now, or to hold it in my hand, or to get some advice. If I'm OK to wait/forgoe the above, then I'll usually find stuff on line. It's not a huge headache either way, really.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

Re: Singapore's bike shop cluster, in Doha (Qatar) it used to be the case that _all_ the shops of a certain kind would be zoned in one place - all the car washes, all the tailors, all the electrical stores, furniture shops etc etc... and then you'd get rows of restaurants all in one place... but now they're seemingly being demolished one by one and replaced by big malls and upscale housing or retail developments.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

qatarbhoy said:


> Re: Singapore's bike shop cluster, in Doha (Qatar) it used to be the case that _all_ the shops of a certain kind would be zoned in one place - all the car washes, all the tailors, all the electrical stores, furniture shops etc etc... and then you'd get rows of restaurants all in one place... but now they're seemingly being demolished one by one and replaced by big malls and upscale housing or retail developments.


I used to enjoy shopping at those various/different "souqs" . Now it's all changed with the big malls and westernized shopping style.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*



bghill said:


> You sound like a big F*%@%!^ crybaby. Glad I don't shop at your LBS. (Local Bulls$#t Shop)



And that's an infraction.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Man, I could really use a moderator for most of my daily interactions. I would probably have much better "rep" by now.


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

foto said:


> Man, I could really use a moderator for most of my daily interactions. I would probably have much better "rep" by now.


Or be banninated from civil society; it's 50-50. :thumbsup:


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## williamguy (Jan 20, 2012)

Online retailers are the death to local bike shops. I would rather spend that little bit extra at my LBS than by online, because I know the money I spend is supporting someone I know and trust. Plus if you spend that much at your LBS they end up either dropping prices substantially for you or giving you freebies  who can argue with free stuff?


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Speaking of that Amazon App, I just saw this in a small town bookstore, another endangered species.

Uploaded from said bookstore.

Edited to add: A bookstore where I just found 1st edition, hard cover copies of Isaac Asimov "Foundation" series books from 1982 and 1985 in new condition. 

View attachment 249535


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

Don4 said:


> Speaking of that Amazon App, I just saw this in a small town bookstore, another endangered species. Uploaded from said bookstore.
> Edited to add: A bookstore where I just found 1st edition, hard cover copies of Isaac Asimov "Foundation" series books from 1982 and 1985 in new condition.


Those who fail to adapt to their environment will die ... not sad :thumbsup:


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

flatsix911 said:


> Those who fail to adapt to their environment will die ... not sad :thumbsup:


Exactly! 

As a consumer, if I don't value the other services that a LBS offers, why should I spend more of money to shop there? If the local store can't compete...not my problem- learn to compete....or it's time to close the doors. I can get a lot more for my money online, and afford things i otherwise could not- why should i subsidize someone's business just because they are not a savvy businessman?


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

May you enjoy riding the bikes you don't have an opportunity to test ride, returning the clothes that don't fit, and sitting on your computer complaining about it on these forums because some part on your bike is busted while you wait three days, maybe five days it something breaks after your favorite online retailer's order cutoff on Friday, because all the LBS's are gone.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Don4 said:


> May you enjoy riding the bikes you don't have an opportunity to test ride, returning the clothes that don't fit, and sitting on your computer complaining about it on these forums because some part on your bike is busted while you wait three days, maybe five days it something breaks after your favorite online retailer's order cutoff on Friday, because all the LBS's are gone.


Funny- but with a little care, all of those problems can be eliminated or at least reduced to a bare minimum. I did buy a bike online without ever having seen one like it or ridden one...worked out fine- and if it hadn't, I merely would have sold it or returned it for a small fee...well worth it, even if that had happened, for the hundreds of dollars I saved. 

Broken parts? Well...moot point for me, since the nearest LBS is so far away that I'm not going to drive there just for a part....and I'm not going to die if I miss a few days riding. That is one of the consequences of online vs. local.....but when you consider how fast the savings add up, I will gladly pay that price, rather than subsidize (to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars a year) a business which is operating with an out-moded business model. 

Learn to turn a screwdriver...
Keep spares of things that are likely to break....
Read sizing charts carefully and take measurements. 

Ya know, when I still live in NYC, I could pretty much get anything I wanted, whenever I wanted it. Now that I live in a very rural area, I've learned to plan ahead more, as I only go to town once a week. You learn to make do and to plan for "what ifs"..... Once you get into the mentality, it's easy.


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> Funny- but with a little care, all of those problems can be eliminated or at least reduced to a bare minimum. I did buy a bike online without ever having seen one like it or ridden one...worked out fine- and if it hadn't, I merely would have sold it or returned it for a small fee...well worth it, even if that had happened, for the hundreds of dollars I saved.
> 
> Broken parts? Well...moot point for me, since the nearest LBS is so far away that I'm not going to drive there just for a part....and I'm not going to die if I miss a few days riding. That is one of the consequences of online vs. local.....but when you consider how fast the savings add up, I will gladly pay that price, rather than subsidize (to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars a year) a business which is operating with an out-moded business model.
> 
> ...


Well said. The LBS is there for MY convenience, not the other way around. And like you said, it's not my job or duty to help my LBS be competitive. If they go out of business it's not my fault, and I will adapt.

If it ever gets to the point where there are no LBS's around me, buying 100% online is not a problem for me. And I couldn't care less if I have to wait a few days for things to arrive. It's not a matter of life and death if I miss a few days of riding.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> Funny- but with a little care, all of those problems can be eliminated or at least reduced to a bare minimum. I did buy a bike online without ever having seen one like it or ridden one...worked out fine- and if it hadn't, I merely would have sold it or returned it for a small fee...well worth it, even if that had happened, for the hundreds of dollars I saved.
> 
> Broken parts? Well...moot point for me, since the nearest LBS is so far away that I'm not going to drive there just for a part....and I'm not going to die if I miss a few days riding. That is one of the consequences of online vs. local.....but when you consider how fast the savings add up, I will gladly pay that price, rather than subsidize (to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars a year) a business which is operating with an out-moded business model.
> 
> ...


I was just catching up on this thread, when it occurred to me that most posters are based in the US. Compared to the UK and Europe the dynamic your LBS's exist in is very different, I'd imagine.

Here in London it's unnecessary for a consumer to have to use online retailers as if they don't find what they want at a price they like they've got a 15 minute trip to the next one. We're competing against each other locally as well as against the likes of Wiggle & Chainreaction. There is also a mass of commuters who need servicing, parts & bikes too. When the price of being off the bike is taken into account it wipes out any saving made in very little time.

Go to any Italian town or city and you're spoilt for choice. Como has three top of the line shops selling Colnago, Cannondale, Time, Pinarello & BMC, yet the population is only 84000.

I suspect that many posters here are in smaller cities and rural areas which have few choices if any, or if they're in the likes of LA or NYC, the commuting/utility scene is not as big so the number of shops is still lower than here, correct me if I'm wrong!


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

bob.satan said:


> I use Soon Watt and Co on Changi rd, Mave and the boys look after me good. i have ridden past TEF, but never gone in. i live in the east and Soon Watt is on my ride home from work (and they are the seven dealer)
> 
> have you noticed how many bike shops have opened in the past 3 months? I know of three, and given that there were already about 40 of them here...


Cannondale over at Ubi, and a couple of Elite shops. This despite the huge number buying from togo and CRC.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

There are lots of shops in NYC. lots and lots.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

foto said:


> There are lots of shops in NYC. lots and lots.


I don't doubt it. But the number of utility cyclists in the US compared to my experience in London is, I suspect, tiny. 

I work for a shop that is in central London. Within less than a mile there are 5 shops. In the City of London there are two big shops within less than 100 metres, with a third less than 5 minutes stroll away. In winter most london shops are booked over a week ahead for repairs. In summer this can climb to as long as 6 weeks! Thats with 5 full time mechanics and a wheelbuilder!!


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And I generally find onjline shopping to be much more convenient. Since pondering this subject, I just realized that I've even been buying a lot of my clothing; and even shoes online for quite some time now- and ya know what? I've never had to return so much as one item because it didn't fit.
> 
> If someone wants to subsidize the local LBS to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars a year, because they can get a screw on their derailleur turned for free now and then, that's their choice....but I'm certainly not going to do it.


If everyone takes the same line as you all that will be left is vast housing estates patrolled by UPS & Fedex vans. The traditional High Street or Main Street will cease to exist.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Propofol said:


> Well said. The LBS is there for MY convenience, not the other way around. And like you said, it's not my job or duty to help my LBS be competitive. If they go out of business it's not my fault, and I will adapt.
> 
> If it ever gets to the point where there are no LBS's around me, buying 100% online is not a problem for me. And I couldn't care less if I have to wait a few days for things to arrive. It's not a matter of life and death if I miss a few days of riding.


Exactly! 

And I generally find onjline shopping to be much more convenient. Since pondering this subject, I just realized that I've even been buying a lot of my clothing; and even shoes online for quite some time now- and ya know what? I've never had to return so much as one item because it didn't fit. 

If someone wants to subsidize the local LBS to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars a year, because they can get a screw on their derailleur turned for free now and then, that's their choice....but I'm certainly not going to do it.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Is it wrong for me to wish, after reading some of the comments here, that the people posting those comments lose their jobs because their company went "online only" or was put out of business by an internet or foreign company?

It shouldn't be wrong....that's what they're wishing for me and the other shop owners.

I can't imagine a world without brick and mortar stores. I like browsing. Sometimes I don't even know what I really want until I see it. I like being able to see and touch things before I buy them. I like knowing that if I buy an item from a locally-owned business, they'll take care of repairs/warranty/etc. Jewelery, for instance. If a stone comes loose or the white gold wears off, I know that the local store owner will fix it.

My town has lost several good stores over the years. The latest is the educational toy store. They sell regular toys, educational toys, and supplies for teachers. They're closing up soon. It makes me sad. I've been buying things there for years.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> Is it wrong for me to wish, after reading some of the comments here, that the people posting those comments lose their jobs because their company went "online only" or was put out of business by an internet or foreign company?
> 
> It shouldn't be wrong....that's what they're wishing for me and the other shop owners.
> 
> ...


No, it's not wrong. It's called poetic justice!


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## Cbookman (Jul 2, 2009)

JohnnyG said:


> I can 100% say ... I've had better dealings with on-line shops than lbs ... On-line is Big business, Big $$$$ and rep is everything ... Great under msrp pricing, shipping - cheap or free, price match, returns - No problem !!!


Sounds like your friends should have bought their sh!t online then, since returning a complete bike to have a fork warrantied would be inexpensive to ship and all. 

Exactly what do you think the right thing to do is? I guess I'm missing your point, as your statistical relevance with an n=1 experience means little to me. You have a terrible LBS, and yet you claim everyone is as bad as that one. That's a logical fallacy, simply put. 

Have you ever had to work on something for free because a part broke? I have, plenty of times. Working for free sucks. Working for free for 3-4+ hours sucks even more, especially if you can't recover the labor costs. I have bills to pay, and I made a lot more than a bike mechanic, and LOSING money at WORK blows. 

I don't see where the LBS needs to meet online prices, other than to get the price to where the customer is comfortable paying what could be a little bit more, while keeping their money local. I realize this is difficult at times, given the prevalence of online retailers and the global economy.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

ultimobici said:


> I was just catching up on this thread, when it occurred to me that most posters are based in the US. Compared to the UK and Europe the dynamic your LBS's exist in is very different, I'd imagine.
> 
> Here in London it's unnecessary for a consumer to have to use online retailers as if they don't find what they want at a price they like they've got a 15 minute trip to the next one. We're competing against each other locally as well as against the likes of Wiggle & Chainreaction. There is also a mass of commuters who need servicing, parts & bikes too. When the price of being off the bike is taken into account it wipes out any saving made in very little time.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct! I used to live 50 miles east of New York City- and even there, bicycle shops were few and far between; and the ones that did exist, I weouldn't give you two cents for (Unless you were there to buy a $3K bike at MSRP, they didn't want to know you- and this was in the days before the internet). 

With the exception of a few major cities, bicycle shops are quite rare here. In the nearest city to me, which has about 40,000 people- there are exactly 2 bike shops- and they are not exclusively bike shops...they sell other things, and have a very limited selection. 

Except for a few major cities on the coast, bicycling itself is just nowhere near as popular here as it is in Europe. The average adult here has never been on a bicycle since he was a teenager. 

And you hit the nail right on the head; even where there are bike shops, there is rarely any competition...or enough business to warrant competition or to even support that one shop, so the prices are very high. This was so before the advent of the internet, and doesn't seem to have changed.

Add to that the fact that it is very expensive to run a business these days in most places in the US- especially in places where there is enough population density to justify having a bike shop, and you rteally have a recipe for the extinction of small shops of all kinds. 

In the rural area where I now live, I go shopping in a town of 12,000 people 17 miles away....which is the shopping area for 2 or 3 surrounding counties...and there is surprisingly little there. Yet, talking to old people, I learned that back in the 1970's, this same town was loaded with small businesses and many department stores and even a bike shop. It's not just the internet which precipitated this decline either, as the decline had come about before the internet even took off- I think it has a lot to do with the automobile and people's increasingly lazy habits. Whereas all the businesses years ago had been downtown, and people would park their cars on the street and then walk to several businesses, or drive and park again...today, it seems people want to park in a big parking lot (even though the walk from where they often have to park is probably the same or longer than when they parked on the streets)- and now, if you have a small business, it's just not viable to have it downtown, because no one shops there anymore....and many of the smaller businesses are just not suited to existing in strip malls and shopping centers, which is where most retail businesses are located these days. It's really stupid, as it's like these businesses are not really a part of the community anymore, like they were in the days when the businesses were downtown- they're just out there in these strip centers and malls...which just all blend into a sea of parking lots and box stores...and everywhere ya go looks exactly the same.

Not only has this sort of retail environment lost all the convenience and value and personalization of what such businesses used to offer...but now, I think it actually seems more personal dealing with an internet business! 

I guess the bottom line is, the consumer has adapted to the internet...and retail businesses are going to have to learn how to adapt, too- or perish. The way it is now, most of these businesses offer no real reason to make the consumer want to patronize them. They can't compete on price...and the extra service they offer (if any) usually is not worth the difference in price. Not to mention that most Americans have become buffoons and borish clods, so, when you walk into to one of these stores, you either get some kid who cares more about talking on his cell phone or texting or talking to his fellow workers than about waiting on customers...or some sleazy salesman who will gladly lie to you and try and sell you some $2 item for $20...or the guy who doesn't want to know you unless he thinks you might plunk down a few grand in his store. It's depressing, really. So I guess, you can see, that the internet has been a real boon to American consumers (as well as to smart businessmen), as we [in most cases] had no real reason to be loyal to local small businesses, and not only get FAR better prices on the net, but often better service; better selection; liberal return policies, etc. 

Shopping on the net has been truly liberating for me.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Is it wrong for me to wish, after reading some of the comments here, that the people posting those comments lose their jobs because their company went "online only" or was put out of business by an internet or foreign company?
> 
> .


It's not that we want "on-line only"; It's that the local B&Ms just can't compete (whether due to the high cost of doing business in a physical location....whatever) and we see little reason to have to subsidize businesses just for the few advantages a B&M may offer- if any. 

Over the years, I've had to change occupations many times due to the changing world and changing conditions. Why must somebody keep their job for their entire life? That would make for a pretty boring life! And on the other hand, for every person that loses their B&M business because they can't compete, or every person that loses their job as a clerk in a B&M, someone else is gaining a job or business on the web or in a business which can compete and prosper and actually fill a need.

Jobs do not exist for our benefit; they exist to fill a need. When they can no longer fullfill that need or if that need goes away, the job goes away. Would you really want to work at something in which you were being artificially subsidized at? Or would you rather earn a real living by providing a product or service that is in demand and which you can provide at a competitive price or with a service that people are willing to pay extra for?

I've been self-employed since I was 17 years old; no just "show up and get a check". I've always had to earn my living by providing a service or product that others would pay for, and at a price that they were willing to pay/what the market would bear- and that's the way it should be- because anything else creates an inequality in the market, and leads to exactly what are seeing now- a dysfunctional economy which is out of whack.

Mexicans come over here and have no trouble finding work and prospering, because they are willing to do what needs to be done, while our fellow Americans often just want to collect a check for showing up, and have to work in an air-conditioned office....or go out on disability or unemployment, rather than mowing lawns or doing some real work if they had to....well sorry, but jobs don't exist for the benefit of the employee!


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

ultimobici said:


> If everyone takes the same line as you all that will be left is vast housing estates patrolled by UPS & Fedex vans. The traditional High Street or Main Street will cease to exist.


That will not happen, if history is any indication.

Remember companies like Webvan, Kozmo, Value America, and eToys? All of these companies boasted a 100% online presence with some like Webvan and Kozmo offering 30 minute-1 hour delivery of items purchased online. And all of them failed spectacularly because for all the hand-wringing about online merchandisers wiping out local brick & mortar stores, the bottom line is that people still want to have the option of physically seeing and inspecting a product before purchasing it.

The bottom line is that local stores WILL adapt to the changing market environment. The ones who adapt successfully will do fine. If you refuse to adapt and insist on doing things the traditional way, then you pretty much get what you deserve. Step aside and let someone else try to do better.

Here's an eye opener: we are NOT going back to the traditional old days of doing business. It will NEVER happen. Change or die, your choice. As the customer I will have other outlets and options and will adapt my buying habits as things change.



PlatyPius said:


> Is it wrong for me to wish, after reading some of the comments here, that the people posting those comments lose their jobs because their company went "online only" or was put out of business by an internet or foreign company?


You can wish whatever you want. What solution are you proposing? Banning online stores? Banning the Internet? Government-mandated price controls?

The smart business owner will adapt and innovate to keep his share of the market. The lazy ones will simply complain about it.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Propofol said:


> That will not happen, if history is any indication.
> 
> Remember companies like Webvan, Kozmo, Value America, and eToys? All of these companies boasted a 100% online presence with some like Webvan and Kozmo offering 30 minute-1 hour delivery of items purchased online. And all of them failed spectacularly because for all the hand-wringing about online merchandisers wiping out local brick & mortar stores, the bottom line is that people still want to have the option of physically seeing and inspecting a product before purchasing it.
> 
> ...


Actually, many of our downtowns have already been decimated- not so much because of the internet, but because of the big box stores and malls. I don't know how old you are, but if you compare the 1970's to today.....the local main st. is bleak now by comparison.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing- I mean, I preferred the Main St. scenario as far as aesthetics and community and all....but I also get a lot more for my money at the big box store or on-line...so it all kind of evens out.....

I used to like the feel of shopping on Main St. ....but to tell you the truth, I can afford a better quality of life in most other regards because I actually get more for less than I did 35 years ago, thanks to those box stores and the internet. 

Before the advent of the internet, I would never have opened an LBS, as it seemed like a bleak business even then....but today, I could see myself selling some sort of bike-related stuff on-line.......so it all does even out. What you lose on one end...you gain somewhere else. What becomes a lost job to one becomes a business opportunity to another (to the same person who lost the job, if he's smart!).


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

> The latest is the educational toy store. They sell regular toys, educational toys, and supplies for teachers. They're closing up soon. It makes me sad. I've been buying things there for years.


Sorry to hear that, Platy: and you were making such good progress with your Duplo and Sticklebricks sets, too!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

qatarbhoy said:


> Sorry to hear that, Platy: and you were making such good progress with your Duplo and Sticklebricks sets, too!


Actually, it's Roy Toy log building sets (version of Lincoln Logs from Maine) and sock monkeys that get me excited. With Bright Futures closing down, I think I'll add some of the lines that they were carrying. Bikes aren't toys, but toys might sell during the winter.


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

bwwROADBIKE said:


> rose, i'm in MN too. Just curious, what shop in MN do you use?


Freewheel on the West Bank. You?


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

_



sock monkeys ... get me excited

Click to expand...

_I don't need a new one, but someone _please_ use this as their sig.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> You are absolutely correct! *I used to live 50 miles east of New York City*- and even there, bicycle shops were few and far between; and the ones that did exist, I weouldn't give you two cents for (Unless you were there to buy a $3K bike at MSRP, they didn't want to know you- and this was in the days before the internet).
> 
> With the exception of a few major cities, bicycle shops are quite rare here. In the nearest city to me, which has about 40,000 people- there are exactly 2 bike shops- and they are not exclusively bike shops...they sell other things, and have a very limited selection.
> 
> ...


Did you ever actually live in New York, or are you just pretending?


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

foto said:


> Did you ever actually live in New York, or are you just pretending?


Yes, I actually lived there- 9 years in Astoria, Queens- just 'cross the river from Manhattan- and Suffolk county Lawn Guyland before and after that...for a total of 39 years of my life.....


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

9 years in Astoria and you couldn't find a decent shop in all that time? Was this during the 60s or something?


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

I paid for the $140 fork (MSRP is $130) and $40 for installation (cutting steerer tube+ swap out the old fork). 

And then next month I went to see them for upgrading my bike (wheel building and drive train upgrade). I asked them to print out the list of all parts and prices, so that I can decided whether I will upgrade or not. I know they have account on QBP (Quality Bike Part).
They refused to do this, they said the reason is; it takes time and labor to do this (search and print out all parts and prices) and I might waste their precious time (by deciding not to upgrade my bike).

Should I keep supporting my LBS?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

WTFcyclist said:


> I paid for the $140 fork (MSRP is $130) and $40 for installation (cutting steerer tube+ swap out the old fork).
> 
> And then next month I went to see them for upgrading my bike (wheel building and drive train upgrade). I asked them to print out the list of all parts and prices, so that I can decided whether I will upgrade or not. I know they have account on QBP (Quality Bike Part).
> They refused to do this, they said the reason is; it takes time and labor to do this (search and print out all parts and prices) and I might waste their precious time (by deciding not to upgrade my bike).
> ...


Asking for a quote is perfectly reasonable. Having it printed out is not necessary, but a handwritten estimate is what I bet the shop owner will get from companies he is thinking of engaging for repair work to his building. So what you describe is *your* experience of *one* LBS. Regrettable but not representable, IMO.


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## chickenfried (Sep 5, 2007)

Who's wished that for you and other shop owners?



PlatyPius said:


> Is it wrong for me to wish, after reading some of the comments here, that the people posting those comments lose their jobs because their company went "online only" or was put out of business by an internet or foreign company?
> 
> It shouldn't be wrong....that's what they're wishing for me and the other shop owners.
> .


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

foto said:


> 9 years in Astoria and you couldn't find a decent shop in all that time? Was this during the 60s or something?


The 80's. The couple of shops in Astoria were priced out of this world....so you'd have to go into Manhattan for anything....and it was tricky at that time to even find a decent price there (nothing like what ya find on the internet today)....and the service at the shops in Manhattan was virtually non-existent.....they were there to collect your money, and that was it. 

Now, 30 years later, I can get much better quality stuff and much lower prices than then.....thanks to the internet.

And as you can see, I learned by necessity to do weithout service. 

So you see, I have no love for LBS's, as I've yet to encounter a good one.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

.....and that's the beauty of a free market economy.....consumers choose where they want to spending their money. LBS can choose which customer they want to keep and maintain a relationship with....

why waste your time heading over to platy's store to research for shopping elsewhere? I could have saved more time by staying home and research on the Internet

BTW, I get 15% off at my LBS with an annual $20 membership fee, which I get the ROI fairly quickly with all the random stuff I buy from them. plus discounts on service....


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

FWIW, I buy from the LBS at SRP when the price diff isn't significant for me. significant will, of course, vary from one person to another. But definitely, items like tubes, wheels, handlebars, and stems, I purchase from the LBS.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

WTFcyclist said:


> I paid for the $140 fork (MSRP is $130) and $40 for installation (cutting steerer tube+ swap out the old fork).
> 
> And then next month I went to see them for upgrading my bike (wheel building and drive train upgrade). I asked them to print out the list of all parts and prices, so that I can decided whether I will upgrade or not. I know they have account on QBP (Quality Bike Part).
> They refused to do this, they said the reason is; it takes time and labor to do this (search and print out all parts and prices) and I might waste their precious time (by deciding not to upgrade my bike).
> ...


Not THIS one. At the very least they should be willing to look it up and give you a total.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

tednugent said:


> .....and that's the beauty of a free market economy.....consumers choose where they want to spending their money. LBS can choose which customer they want to keep and maintain a relationship with....
> 
> .


Very true. Trouble is, the average LBS needs customers more so than than customers need an LBS....so the smart LBS owner tries attract people, and to convert every walk-in into a customer. 

[Great...now for the rest of the day, I'll be going around with "Cat scratch fever...nah-nah NAH!" playing in my head.... :cryin: )


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

tednugent said:


> why waste your time heading over to platy's store to research for shopping elsewhere? I could have saved more time by staying home and research on the Internet


That's the way to do it. Do your research online, find the parts you want, find the average online price, print it all out, and bring it in to your LBS. Me, I'll try to match the prices as much as I can and probably install all of the parts cheap/for free as long as you aren't a d-bag. While I'm installing the parts, I'll probably go over everything else to make sure the bike is working perfectly.

Ultimately, you'll walk out with your bike upgraded and perfectly cleaned and tuned for maybe a little more than the cost of the parts online.

And you'll have started a relationship with my shop. That means even better deals, sometimes freebies from reps, free coffee, etc.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Ultimately, you'll walk out with your bike upgraded and perfectly cleaned and tuned for maybe a little more than the cost of the parts online.
> 
> And you'll have started a relationship with my shop. That means even better deals, sometimes freebies from reps, free coffee, etc.


^THIS!

Too bad more shops - and customers - don't understand the difference between PRICE and VALUE as well as you do!

:thumbsup:

Any chance you're looking to open a new location in central NJ?


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

RJP Diver said:


> ^THIS!
> 
> Too bad more shops - and customers - don't understand the difference between PRICE and VALUE as well as you do!


The difference is, the good shop owner needs to treat every person that walks through his shop door like a valuable (or potentially valuable) customer regardless of what that customer does in the store - obviously, to a limit. The customer doesn't necessarily need to treat the shop owner the same way, since he has a lot less to lose.

It's an issue of attitude. You're trying to get customers to change their shopping attitudes by complaining about them and pointing out what they're doing wrong in your eyes. That doesn't work. A d-bag is going to act like a d-bag customer whether he shops online or buys from your shop. It's up to the shop owner to decide if the d-bag's business is worth it for him. If not, then that's fine - no need to provide incentives for the d-bag to buy locally versus online.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Propofol said:


> The difference is, the good shop owner needs to treat every person that walks through his shop door like a valuable (or potentially valuable) customer regardless of what that customer does in the store - obviously, to a limit. The customer doesn't necessarily need to treat the shop owner the same way, since he has a lot less to lose.
> 
> It's an issue of attitude. You're trying to get customers to change their shopping attitudes by complaining about them and pointing out what they're doing wrong in your eyes. That doesn't work. A d-bag is going to act like a d-bag customer whether he shops online or buys from your shop. It's up to the shop owner to decide if the d-bag's business is worth it for him. If not, then that's fine - no need to provide incentives for the d-bag to buy locally versus online.


Now THAT is a perfect summation of the most practical attitude that anyone in retail should have.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> Now THAT is a perfect summation of the most practical attitude that anyone in retail should have.


That pretty much sums up how I behave towards customers. Occasionally there is one that pushes you a little too far, but you just remember the face. In time they will need a tube or something on tick.......


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> That's the way to do it. Do your research online, find the parts you want, find the average online price, print it all out, and bring it in to your LBS. Me, I'll try to match the prices as much as I can and probably install all of the parts cheap/for free as long as you aren't a d-bag. While I'm installing the parts, I'll probably go over everything else to make sure the bike is working perfectly.
> 
> Ultimately, you'll walk out with your bike upgraded and perfectly cleaned and tuned for maybe a little more than the cost of the parts online.
> 
> And you'll have started a relationship with my shop. That means even better deals, sometimes freebies from reps, free coffee, etc.


For my 29er MTB, I paid for the $140 Salsa Fargo fork (MSRP is $130) and $40 for installation with no bike fitting involved (cutting steerer tube+ swap out the old fork + swap the crown race + put one more spacer) + $12.6 tax = $192.6. And I just found out 9 months later when I hit the trail that this fork is not a suspension corrected fork for 29er so my pedal always hit the ground. Now I have to keep this fork for my old 26er. :idea:

I think they order this fork from QBP (Quality Bike Part). Do you think how much will you charge for this fork+installation at your shop?

BTW, I'm sure that I'm not a d-bag. I was never even try to bargain or price-match because I know them for 3 years. I bought a bike from them and even recommended my friends to buy bikes from them. But now I have to admit that I'm thinking about getting a road bike online (that's why I'm a member here).


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## Propofol (Jul 5, 2005)

WTFcyclist said:


> BTW, I'm sure that I'm not a d-bag. I was never even try to bargain or price-match because I know them for 3 years. I bought a bike from them and even recommended my friends to buy bikes from them. But now I have to admit that I'm thinking about getting a road bike online (that's why I'm a member here).


Be careful, some people here may thing you're the world's biggest dillhole d-bag for even thinking about buying online. 

The key is to give your LBS a shot at *earning *your business first. If they can't or aren't willing to compete with online merchants, screw them. It's not your job or responsibility to keep them in business.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

WTFcyclist said:


> I think they order this fork from QBP (Quality Bike Part). Do you think how much will you charge for this fork+installation at your shop?


The fork would go for $110-$120 in my shop. Installation would be included.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

Thanks for advices everybody! 



Propofol said:


> Be careful, some people here may thing you're the world's biggest dillhole d-bag for even thinking about buying online.
> 
> The key is to give your LBS a shot at *earning *your business first. If they can't or aren't willing to compete with online merchants, screw them. It's not your job or responsibility to keep them in business.


I forgot to mention that they charged me for the "overpriced and not suitable fork" [$140 fork (MSRP $130) + $40 installation] on my 29er that they know I bought from them (the sticker is still on that bike).

I used to have faith in this LBS of mine, I thought that I was a chosen one, but now I'm an infidel Darwinian. “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. *It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.*”  

Since I'm not the chosen one of my LBS. Next time I go shopping with my Internet-phone so that I can instantly check the online prices. :mad2::mad2:


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Bumped


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

foto said:


> Bumped


Yeah, because with >7000 views and >260 responses in a week this thread hasn't had enough visibility.

:thumbsup:


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

My most recent LBS encounter was for a small tune up and chain replacement. I was quoted between $50-60 for the work (parts/labor). I said no problem. I stopped by a couple days latter to pick up the bike and the person at the counter say "That will be $72" - I told him that's not what I was quoted. He then tells me that was just an "estimate".

The tech who helped me initially made it right by adjusting the price per the initial quote but by then I was already annoyed. I would have preferred an up front quote, or if it is just an "estimate" tell me that and if you find something wrong that requires my estimate to go up - pick up the phone and call me.


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

I just got into road biking (I've been mountain biking since 2006). I've been shopping for my first road bike all week. Found the bike I liked online for $1,750 and the LBS wanted $2,400. I showed them the online price hoping to get a break and they told me they will include a free fitting (worth $80 listed on their counter) and they can take $50 off the price. I asked the guy if he could do any better and he said no. I left a bought my bike online and drove a hour to pick it up same day. I hope I never hear an employee from this store complain about online bike stores.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

bombertodd said:


> I just got into road biking (I've been mountain biking since 2006). I've been shopping for my first road bike all week. Found the bike I liked online for $1,750 and the LBS wanted $2,400. I showed them the online price hoping to get a break and they told me they will include a free fitting (worth $80 listed on their counter) and they can take $50 off the price. I asked the guy if he could do any better and he said no. I left a bought my bike online and drove a hour to pick it up same day. I hope I never hear an employee from this store complain about online bike stores.


Please post specifics about the bike (make, model).
$1750 would be at or *below* cost for a $2400 bike.

ie: I am very, very skeptical.


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

I can't post links yet but I bought it from Jensons USA. 2011 Look 566 with sram rival.

Typo, I bought it for $1,650... bought a jacket too so I was thinking $1,750... past my bedtime.... haha.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Ah. You didn't mention that it was a last-year's closeout. Was the bike at the shop also a 2011 or was it a 2012?


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> Ah. You didn't mention that it was a last-year's closeout. Was the bike at the shop also a 2011 or was it a 2012?


Yes sir. 2011 both bikes were identical. I tried to give my money to LBS but they weren't interested.


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## bob.satan (Jun 2, 2011)

Sasquatch said:


> Cannondale over at Ubi, and a couple of Elite shops. This despite the huge number buying from togo and CRC.


A new shop has opened on tanjong Katong, another in the old passione shop, another on peya laber rd, and the new kona dealer in jurong, not to mention ubi.

I love togo, but have both good and bad experiences.

good when you buy stuff of people that love bikes and want to have a chat. i recently sold my old road bike on it and the bloke that bought it was great. I will only buy stuff that I dont need fitted by my LBS, saddles, pedals, pumps, repair stands etc...

I got a full XTR miuntain bike for my wife for $1200, which was great.

On other hands, the people that dont turn up when you want to give them money for their excess parts (that has happened a couple of times)


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

bombertodd said:


> Yes sir. 2011 both bikes were identical. I tried to give my money to LBS but they weren't interested.


Possibly. But then you have to look at what each shop's situation is before you condemn them out of hand.

I suspect that your local shop is a Look dealer who is stocking Look's 2012 range? And Would I be right in thinking you bought from a bike shop that has 4u in their name? If so you're comparing two totally different set ups. The shop you got your deal at are either glad to get shot of Look as they have ditched the brand or specialise in stock clearances by buying up the distributor's excess at the end of the year. Either way the first shop can't come near the second shop's price as they'd be losing money.


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

ultimobici said:


> Possibly. But then you have to look at what each shop's situation is before you condemn them out of hand.
> 
> I suspect that your local shop is a Look dealer who is stocking Look's 2012 range? And Would I be right in thinking you bought from a bike shop that has 4u in their name? If so you're comparing two totally different set ups. The shop you got your deal at are either glad to get shot of Look as they have ditched the brand or specialise in stock clearances by buying up the distributor's excess at the end of the year. Either way the first shop can't come near the second shop's price as they'd be losing money.


I'm not condemning the LBS I just get tired of going to the local bike shop, local paint shop, local hobby shop, etc... and hear them complaining about online stores stealing their business. I work in retail (not bikes) and understand the importance of meeting customers needs. For some reason our shop doesn't have issues with online sales. 

As mentioned before I bought the bike online at Jensons USA and picked it up in their store that same day.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

bombertodd said:


> I'm not condemning the LBS I just get tired of going to the local bike shop, local paint shop, local hobby shop, etc... and hear them complaining about online stores stealing their business. I work in retail (not bikes) and understand the importance of meeting customers needs. For some reason our shop doesn't have issues with online sales.
> 
> As mentioned before I bought the bike online at Jensons USA and picked it up in their store that same day.


Looking at Jenson's site I can't see any other Look bike other than the one you bought. Bearing in mind the full price is $2800 it's not really a fair representation of the situation is it? Your local shop had almost 15% off to begin with which when you take off the extra $50 and factor in the $80 free fit is more like 20% off. When I read your first post it looked like they wouldn't budge from RRP. So my point stands regarding one shop dumping the brand & another carrying on with it. Not something to cite as a whining shop.

Just out of interest, what field of retail are you in?


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

bombertodd said:


> I can't post links yet but I bought it from Jensons USA. 2011 Look 566 with sram rival.
> 
> Typo, I bought it for $1,650... bought a jacket too so I was thinking $1,750... past my bedtime.... haha.


Excellent! 

Don't pay any attention to those who are giving you a hard time- It is not your concern WHY an LBS charges 100's of dollars more, or why a shop with an online presence sells it substantially cheaper- the fact is, you as the consumer made the effort to compare prices and sniff out a good deal, and you saved a substantial amount of money doing so- good for you!!!! 

Businesses that can't compete or that don't know how to treat customers/potential customers, perish. That's the way it's always been- even before the inty-net...and that's the way it should be.

Enjoy that nice bicycle! (And knowing ya got a good deal makes it even more enjoyable!)

Kudos to you!


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

ultimobici said:


> Just out of interest, what field of retail are you in?



I work in the golf industry. Speaking of golf, I used to work at a local course where one of the local LBS owners would come play. Him and his wife would always play and they both always had brand new Oakley sun glasses on. One day I stopped by the shop (rare because of prices and lack of selection) His wife came back in the store took her Oakley sunglasses off and cleaned them really well and put them back on the rack. I could not believe it. This is a fine example why many people do not trust their LBS.

On a good note there are a few LBS 1-2 hours a way that I would trust. They give me a fair price and good service. I'm waiting for one of these shops to hopefully build a location near me.


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## ARE. (Jul 29, 2011)

bombertodd said:


> I work in the golf industry.


Golf industry? I don't know how pro shops stay in business. I can buy all my golf equipment much cheaper online from Rockbottom.com or GolfTown.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SolitaryRider said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Don't pay any attention to those who are giving you a hard time- It is not your concern WHY an LBS charges 100's of dollars more, or why a shop with an online presence sells it substantially cheaper- the fact is, you as the consumer made the effort to compare prices and sniff out a good deal, and you saved a substantial amount of money doing so- good for you!!!!
> 
> ...


You're really getting on my nerves.
I don't care that he bought a bike online; that doesn't bother me.
People who keep spewing that line in bold above, however, do annoy the hell out of me.

Online bike and parts sales are probably 90% due to price. The other 10% (or 50%, if you're Russian) is for people too lazy to go to a bike shop, people who hate bike shops, and people who don't live close to a bike shop.
Ergo, by your theory, if Safeway/Kroger/Whomever starts selling groceries online for a cheaper price - although it take a few days for the food to arrive - all real grocery stores should "perish". Everyone should plan ahead and stockpile 2 weeks worth of milk, right?

Back to bikes, how many of those internet sellers sponsor local riders? Donate raffle/auction items for local causes? Fix bikes for people not mechanically inclined?

*You'd* be perfectly happy if all bike shops went away. What about the guy across town who doesn't even know how to fix a flat? What about the girl who doesn't want to learn how to rebuild her bottom bracket? As bike shops keeping going under due to people thinking like you, more and more people will stop riding their bikes because they're broken. More people won't buy them in the first place since they need to be assembled. And heaven forbid you're so stupid as to not have a case of tubes at your house if you get a flat! Isn't that the argument? Everyone should stock tubes, derailleurs, cables, chains, etc in their garages?

The selfishness of some people (and some bike shops; I don't disagree with that) will ultimately kill cycling in the US. But you don't care as long as you can get your stuff cheap, right?


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

My friend says LBS charge him for *$170* (included tax) for 2 Nokian Suomi Hakkapeliitta 700x40 240 Steel Studs tires and tire swapping.

If he get these from Aebike he will pay *$115.73* for these tires.
Nokian Suomi Hakkapelitta - AEBike.com


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

WTFcyclist said:


> My friend says LBS charge him for *$170* (included tax) for 2 Nokian Suomi Hakkapeliitta 700x40 240 Steel Studs tires and tire swapping.
> 
> If he get these from Aebike he will pay *$115.73* for these tires.
> Nokian Suomi Hakkapelitta - AEBike.com



Normal retail for the tires = $90/each.
Install Tire = $5/each (wheels-on-bike) - $3/each (just bring wheels)
So, $186-$190 + tax.

Sound like he got a good deal at the LBS, regardless.


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> Normal retail for the tires = $90/each.
> Install Tire = $5/each (wheels-on-bike) - $3/each (just bring wheels)
> So, $186-$190 + tax.
> 
> Sound like he got a good deal at the LBS, regardless.


I safe him from buying crappy Walmart bike. Yes, I think it's good deal for him since he is too lazy to learn anything about bike mechanic. OBS (online bike shop) or LBS, I don't care. My slogan is now "support your BS that gives you the best deal." 

But the good thing about OBS is that, while I'm looking at my OBS, I can open up whatever application or search engine to make "deal comparison." They are not going to call me d-bags.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> You're really getting on my nerves.
> I don't care that he bought a bike online; that doesn't bother me.
> People who keep spewing that line in bold above, however, do annoy the hell out of me.
> 
> ...


You're just rehashing the same old thing that's been been said 100 times already in this thread. I

In this particular case, as Bombertodd has already thoroughly 'splained, the LBS did not offer any additional service to justify the nearly $1000 extra that they charge for the same bike- and in fact, had demonstrated by their conduct, that they are not even a good and ethical business to deal with.

Oh...big deal...they would have thrown in a fitting and taken a WHOLE $50 off......

In this particular case, price alone is enouigh to justify buying elsewhere. The LBS was not offering any additional value to justify the hundreds of extra dollars that Todd would have had to pay there for the exact same bike. 

So your point is????

Are you saying that you would buy something from the local hardware store if it cost more than $700 more than the exact same thing at Home Depot, just for whatever potential extra service you might get there and so you could support their business?

Your comments are meaningless, as you are letting your involvement in the bicycle business prejudice you to the point of absurdity. 

The clear fact, visible to all others, is that Todd got himself a good deal, and an LBS lost his business because they couldn't compete and/or offered nothing of value that would equal the difference in price they were charging vs. the other place. Case closed! 

Why not be happy for Todd? 

I used to be a tow truck owner-operator. Sometimes people would call me and I'd give them a quote- and while I always priced my services very competitively, sometimes they'd say "Well Joe said he could do that for $50". I'd cheerfully tell them to use "Joe", as the price I gave them was already the least I'd be willing to do the job for. No hard feelings. In fact, I was glad for them. They got a bargain. Maybe Joe had to go that way anyway...or maybe Joe was a bad businessman...or maybe Joe just wanted the guy's business enouigh to work for free.....in any regard, I didn't whine and complain about i- and if someone else would call me and not be willing to accept my price for a job, I'd sometimes even refer them to a Joe.

Point is, don't put the blame on the consumer, who will naturally take the best deal, just as you will purchase your merchandise from the distributor who offers you the best price and service. 

And quite frankly, I'm tired of hearing all this fluff about "all the wonderful services that the LBS provides"- when in reality, you have to pay a high price for some skinny **** to turn an allen wrench or make sure your nads don't hit the top tube- basically, ALL stuff that anyone can learn to do very proficiently at home, themselves- and yes, even a good fitting.

Some people would rather pay someone to perform those services; but don't make it sound like the services that an LBS offers are absolutely necessary and worth spending hundreds or thousands of extra dollars for, and that somehow we will all die if we don't let the LBS fix our flat or oil our chain or do a fititng (which half the shops don't even do correctly, anyway- as has already been demonstrated)

The fact is, you are in a business which is not driven by necessity- but rather by choice and convenience- Some are willing to pay a lot for that convenience...others are not.

I've lived quite nicely all of my life without the need for an LBS and will continue to do so, until and if a shop comes along that offers a good enough reason and good enough value to make me shop there. 

So stop acting like a putz. Accept reality.


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## ARE. (Jul 29, 2011)

WTFcyclist said:


> They are not going to call me d-bags.


That you know of...or at least until you are in a situation that requires problem resolution.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

WTFcyclist said:


> I safe him from buying crappy Walmart bike. Yes, I think it's good deal for him since he is too lazy to learn anything about bike mechanic. OBS (online bike shop) or LBS, I don't care. My slogan is now "support your BS that gives you the best deal."
> 
> But the good thing about OBS is that, while I'm looking at my OBS, I can open up whatever application or search engine to make "deal comparison." They are not going to call me d-bags.


LBS or OBS, one thing's for certain, Platy's gonna give ya a lot of BS! 

($170 for 2 bicycle tires?.....DARN! I could almost buy 2 tires for my one-ton diesel truck for that!!!)


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

SolitaryRider said:


> Are you saying that you would buy something from the local hardware store if it cost more than $700 more than the exact same thing at Home Depot, just for whatever potential extra service you might get there and so you could support their business?
> 
> .


Wait! I forgot to tell you: The Hardware store will throw in a free keychain!!!! Now doesn't it make sense to spend the extra $700 there?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I gotta admit, I am impressed by the level of depth and nuance being brought to this discussion.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> LBS or OBS, one thing's for certain, Platy's gonna give ya a lot of BS!
> 
> ($170 for 2 bicycle tires?.....DARN! I could almost buy 2 tires for my one-ton diesel truck for that!!!)


Hakkapalllittasdfal;ksjdf are expensive tires, no matter where you get em from, wetodd.


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## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> People who keep spewing that line in bold above, however, do annoy the hell out of me.


Why does that line bother you? His statement that shops that don't know how to compete, or treat customers, perish. It's true in every business. Not just the bike industry.

Besides, it cuts both ways. A shop that is competitively priced and treats customers fairly will do quite well. I support my local shops because they are priced competitively and treat customers fairly.

You assume that statement drives business away from shops. That isn't the case. It only drives business away from BAD shops.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

If someone pays to much for something at the lbs then that's a you problem, not the lbs. You need to know your prices just like everything at costco isn't cheaper. LBS, all of them have one thing in common and if you think different then something is wrong. They are are businesses and they all need to turn a profit. They may differ on how as in $$$ in fixing bikes, $$$ for parts, $$$ for clohing or $$$ on the bikes. Some do one of those and some do all of those and some in the middle.


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## tystevens (Jul 10, 2008)

shokhead said:


> If someone pays to much for something at the lbs then that's a you problem, not the lbs. You need to know your prices just like everything at costco isn't cheaper. LBS, all of them have one thing in common and if you think different then something is wrong. They are are businesses and they all need to turn a profit. They may differ on how as in $$$ in fixing bikes, $$$ for parts, $$$ for clohing or $$$ on the bikes. Some do one of those and some do all of those and some in the middle.


Sure, that's true. Someone mentioned in a previous post that it was 'unethical' for the LBS to charge $2,400 for a bike that the on-line merchant was willing to sell for much less. Well, I see nothing unethical about it -- the LBS is free to charge what it wants, ie, what it thinks it can for a product. An item is worth what someone will pay for it, nothing more and nothing less. The LBS isn't obligated to make sure they aren't charging more for a product than someone else may be.

At the same time, it is not unethical for me to go into an LBS, see what they have, make my own determination that they are asking more than I want to pay, and go make my purchase elsewhere. What is unethical, at least IMO, is for me to identify different products online, go into an LBS and use their stock to determine fit, examine quality, etc., and then go back and buy it online (or even from my phone in the LBS!).


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

shokhead said:


> If someone pays to much for something at the lbs then that's a you problem, not the lbs. You need to know your prices just like everything at costco isn't cheaper. LBS, all of them have one thing in common and if you think different then something is wrong. They are are businesses and they all need to turn a profit. They may differ on how as in $$$ in fixing bikes, $$$ for parts, $$$ for clohing or $$$ on the bikes. Some do one of those and some do all of those and some in the middle.


Yes, I agree that to turn a profit is priority for every sane BS (bike shop).

I hope LBS will keep trying to be competitive in deal. Perhaps, trying to not accept the BS from big brand like Trek, SpicialLies. 

Someday the online retailers will come out and shout *"..... Oh, the d-bags keep our server busy but they didn't buy anything from us, they just look on our website, chat with us online, and then they copy the part numbers/name and go to their LBS!!!!!!!!......."* Damn! Please support your OBS!


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

tystevens said:


> Sure, that's true. Someone mentioned in a previous post that it was 'unethical' for the LBS to charge $2,400 for a bike that the on-line merchant was willing to sell for much less. Well, I see nothing unethical about it -- the LBS is free to charge what it wants, ie, what it thinks it can for a product. An item is worth what someone will pay for it, nothing more and nothing less. The LBS isn't obligated to make sure they aren't charging more for a product than someone else may be.
> 
> At the same time, it is not unethical for me to go into an LBS, see what they have, make my own determination that they are asking more than I want to pay, and go make my purchase elsewhere. What is unethical, at least IMO, is for me to identify different products online, go into an LBS and use their stock to determine fit, examine quality, etc., and then go back and buy it online (or even from my phone in the LBS!).


^^^^^^^The simple truth- that we should ALL be able to agree upon.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

svrider said:


> *Why does that line bother you?* His statement that shops that don't know how to compete, or treat customers, perish. It's true in every business. Not just the bike industry.


Because it was in regards to a bike being sold for less than the shop could have ever bought it for. ie: There is no way for the shop to "adapt" to that.


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

ARE. said:


> Golf industry? I don't know how pro shops stay in business. I can buy all my golf equipment much cheaper online from Rockbottom.com or GolfTown.


They stay in business by partnering up with green grass facilities. I'm not sure about the cycling industry but most of our stuff has a MAP (minimum authorized price). Basically no one is allowed to sell below MAP. Accounts getting caught selling below MAP lose their account. Our shops strategy is provide quality service, fitting, and value. We do this by offering free fittings and adjustments with purchase of our equipment. We also sell all equipment at the lowest price allowed by MAP until the MAP price is lifted (12-18 months on average). When MAP drops off we liquidate so we aren't sitting on old stock. We never have anyone complaining about online prices being lower because by law they can't. If there is no MAP price associated with the product we do match online prices with a smile and remind the customer that we really appreciate their business. My last trick is the driving range. People say well online there is no sales tax. I tell them "Good point, how about I give you XXXX amount of range baskets to make up for the tax." Works 99% of the time. 

Also I don't worry too much about stores like rock bottom golf. Some of my customers shop their too. But when the want a current product (ie: not last model) we are the same price as everyone else so we let our customer service and knowledge do the work of retaining customers. 

As for proshop staying in business it is quite easy when you have logo goods working for you. You are the only person around selling your own logo shirts. Also supply and demand. If you need balls or tees at the turn you cannot order on rock bottom golf and have them their in 5 minutes. That's how most proshops stay in business.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

tystevens said:


> Sure, that's true. Someone mentioned in a previous post that it was 'unethical' for the LBS to charge $2,400 for a bike that the on-line merchant was willing to sell for much less. Well, I see nothing unethical about it -- the LBS is free to charge what it wants, ie, what it thinks it can for a product. An item is worth what someone will pay for it, nothing more and nothing less. The LBS isn't obligated to make sure they aren't charging more for a product than someone else may be.
> 
> At the same time, it is not unethical for me to go into an LBS, see what they have, make my own determination that they are asking more than I want to pay, and go make my purchase elsewhere. What is unethical, at least IMO, is for me to identify different products online, go into an LBS and use their stock to determine fit, examine quality, etc., and then go back and buy it online (or even from my phone in the LBS!).


I agree with all of this.

I don't have a problem with the customer buying the bike, I have a problem with the brand allowing a large online retailer to sell the bike for less than normal wholesale and therefore screwing the shops that had stocked the bike during the model year. I'm not a LOOK dealer, but I'd almost guarantee that the smaller bike shops never got a chance to buy those model-year closeouts.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

tystevens said:


> Sure, that's true. Someone mentioned in a previous post that it was 'unethical' for the LBS to charge $2,400 for a bike that the on-line merchant was willing to sell for much less. Well, I see nothing unethical about it -- the LBS is free to charge what it wants, ie, what it thinks it can for a product. An item is worth what someone will pay for it, nothing more and nothing less. The LBS isn't obligated to make sure they aren't charging more for a product than someone else may be.
> 
> At the same time, it is not unethical for me to go into an LBS, see what they have, make my own determination that they are asking more than I want to pay, and go make my purchase elsewhere. What is unethical, at least IMO, is for me to identify different products online, go into an LBS and use their stock to determine fit, examine quality, etc., and then go back and buy it online (or even from my phone in the LBS!).


At the same time, it is not unethical for me to go into an LBS, see what they have, make my own determination that they are asking more than I want to pay, and go make my purchase elsewhere. What is unethical, at least IMO, is for me to identify different products online, go into an LBS and use their stock to determine fit, examine quality, etc., and then go back and buy it online (or even from my phone in the LBS!).[/QUOTE]

But many on here will call that devil talk and how could you not just go ahead a spend a little more at the lbs to support them.

On the other hand depending where you live like me, most lbs around here are a chain like performance or smaller chain like jaxs and most others that have 2 to 5 in it's chain vs other plaves that might have 2 or 3 independent lbs in a 50-100 mile radius. I suppose one might treat the 2 different types different.


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## bombertodd (Jan 23, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> I agree with all of this.
> 
> ..... I have a problem with the brand allowing a large online retailer to sell the bike for less than normal wholesale and therefore screwing the shops that had stocked the bike during the model year.



Agree 100%

They should at least net down the remaining stock you have like they do in our industry. This way you're in a level playing field.


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## ARE. (Jul 29, 2011)

bombertodd said:


> They stay in business by partnering up with green grass facilities. I'm not sure about the cycling industry but most of our stuff has a MAP (minimum authorized price). Basically no one is allowed to sell below MAP. Accounts getting caught selling below MAP lose their account. Our shops strategy is provide quality service, fitting, and value. We do this by offering free fittings and adjustments with purchase of our equipment. We also sell all equipment at the lowest price allowed by MAP until the MAP price is lifted (12-18 months on average). When MAP drops off we liquidate so we aren't sitting on old stock. We never have anyone complaining about online prices being lower because by law they can't. If there is no MAP price associated with the product we do match online prices with a smile and remind the customer that we really appreciate their business. My last trick is the driving range. People say well online there is no sales tax. I tell them "Good point, how about I give you XXXX amount of range baskets to make up for the tax." Works 99% of the time.
> 
> Also I don't worry too much about stores like rock bottom golf. Some of my customers shop their too. But when the want a current product (ie: not last model) we are the same price as everyone else so we let our customer service and knowledge do the work of retaining customers.
> 
> As for proshop staying in business it is quite easy when you have logo goods working for you. You are the only person around selling your own logo shirts. Also supply and demand. If you need balls or tees at the turn you cannot order on rock bottom golf and have them their in 5 minutes. That's how most proshops stay in business.


Woah, I feel like you missed the sarcasm in my post. Sorry you went to all that work to explain something I understand.

You pretty much described people that will pay to use a pro shop because they are getting more value for their money than just the purchase of product. And, you aren't bothered that they supplement their loyalty with online shopping. Pretty much a model for a good LBS. I'm pretty sure a good LBS would be able to quote your explanation to describe their own business, changing only a few words here and there.

My point is, coming into this forum and telling your bad experience stories is likely no different than someone on a golf forum telling bad experience stories about your (or other) pro shops and swearing off anything but online sales. Certain idividuals (and I'm not referring to you) keep repeating their Bad News Bear stories like every bike shop is crooked, when in fact, they are not.

FWIW, I would understand if you came across as defensive about your own shop in the hypothetical golf forum situation described, as are a few of the LBS owners on this thread.


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## tystevens (Jul 10, 2008)

shokhead said:


> But many on here will call that devil talk and how could you not just go ahead a spend a little more at the lbs to support them.
> 
> On the other hand depending where you live like me, most lbs around here are a chain like performance or smaller chain like jaxs and most others that have 2 to 5 in it's chain vs other plaves that might have 2 or 3 independent lbs in a 50-100 mile radius. I suppose one might treat the 2 different types different.


I agree that there are a few LBS that do act like it's my duty to support them -- I mentioned in a previous thread about a particular experience I personally had where the LBS owner/employee muttered that I was a cheapskate who was probably going to buy online after I didn't buy from him as I was on my way out the door. I probably wont go back there -- we have plenty of LBS to choose from in SLC -- but upon reflection, I can understand his frustration, I suppose.

The only large 'chain' of LBS we have here is REI; other than that, there are just a couple regional chains with 5 or 6 stores in the metro area. I admit that I would treat a large chain with an on-line presence, like Performance or REI, somewhat differently than I would treat a small sole prop LBS -- I wouldn't feel too bad about trying something on at Performance and ordering it from somewhere else.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Because it was in regards to a bike being sold for less than the shop could have ever bought it for. ie: There is no way for the shop to "adapt" to that.


So what? If sell coffee pots, you probably have to pay more for them wholesale than what Wal*Mart sells theirs for. A lot of things determine what you poay for merchandise- like how much you buy...and if you can buy direct/import vs. buying from a distributor. That's business. Either learn to deal with it and carve a niche some other way....or.....you're in a losing game. 

I sold a tow truck to a guy once who was paying people for junk cars that I would charge to take away- he could do this because his girlfriend was paying for the truck and the insurance, etc. and he was living in an abandoned house and didn't really HAVE TO make a living..... I had to live the fact of that, until he went out of business...... That's business. 

When businessmen start advocating what amounts to price-fixing, so that consumers can not take advantage of businesses which can afford to give them great deals, that is despicable. Business is about competition. When there's competition, the most people benefit. (I'm really surprised that golf-related businesses can do as Todd describes- If some other businesses did that, it would definitely be considered antitrust/price-fixing)


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

If it make any difference some golf courses are run by the city.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> So what? If sell coffee pots, you probably have to pay more for them wholesale than what Wal*Mart sells theirs for. A lot of things determine what you poay for merchandise- like how much you buy...and if you can buy direct/import vs. buying from a distributor. That's business. Either learn to deal with it and carve a niche some other way....or.....you're in a losing game.
> 
> I sold a tow truck to a guy once who was paying people for junk cars that I would charge to take away- he could do this because his girlfriend was paying for the truck and the insurance, etc. and he was living in an abandoned house and didn't really HAVE TO make a living..... I had to live the fact of that, until he went out of business...... That's business.
> 
> When businessmen start advocating what amounts to price-fixing, so that consumers can not take advantage of businesses which can afford to give them great deals, that is despicable. Business is about competition. When there's competition, the most people benefit. (I'm really surprised that golf-related businesses can do as Todd describes- If some other businesses did that, it would definitely be considered antitrust/price-fixing)


Couple of points. 

The Look bike that was offered up as an example of intransigence on the part if the LBS to compete with the OBS is a red herring. The MSRP was $2800 not $2400 so the $50 cash & $80 fit were on top of a $400 reduction. It is plain to see Jenson are not selling Look in 2012, so they'd naturally want to be shot of their remaining inventory ASAP. Addin the possibility that Jenson bought their stock early on perhaps as the initial stock in, whereas the LBS may have only had their bike(s) in later in the season. If they're continuing with Look there's a limit to how heavily they'd discount the bike. Also distributors in my experience often will help stretch their credit terms to help loyal dealers who continue to support their brand. 

As for price fixing, the close to wholesale or even below cost selling will hurt you the consumer in the long run. If prices are fixed artificially low by online sellers eventually there'll only be large organisations. Then they can raise prices back up to levels you won't like. Only then there'll be no alternative. Cuts both ways. 

In the UK the buses were deregulated secer years ago. One large company ran routes parallel to the small operators at prices none of them could afford to compete with. One by one they found themselves in trouble. One by one they were bought up. Pretty soon there were no independents and lo and behold the fares went up to levels higher than before. And there was no alternative. 

So careful what you wish for. One day all you'll have is OBS but no reason for them to be undercutting B&M stores so no more cheap parts.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

ultimobici said:


> Couple of points.
> 
> The Look bike that was offered up as an example of intransigence on the part if the LBS to compete with the OBS is a red herring. The MSRP was $2800 not $2400 so the $50 cash & $80 fit were on top of a $400 reduction. It is plain to see Jenson are not selling Look in 2012, so they'd naturally want to be shot of their remaining inventory ASAP. Addin the possibility that Jenson bought their stock early on perhaps as the initial stock in, whereas the LBS may have only had their bike(s) in later in the season. If they're continuing with Look there's a limit to how heavily they'd discount the bike. Also distributors in my experience often will help stretch their credit terms to help loyal dealers who continue to support their brand.
> 
> ...




As for the red herring bike- I don't think that really matters. For whatever reason one place was selling theirs for substantially less than another- and the consumer did some comparison shopping and took advantage of the best deal. That's what it's all about. 

Maybe he could have found a shop was going out of business and liquidating....the fact remains, he found a good deal and it worked out well for him. Maybe there was no way in the world the LBS could have competed. So what? When you go to buy something, you don't ask the sller how he can afford to sell it so cheap, or why he charges so much....you just go with the best deal, right? It doesn't mean that the LBS is a bad guy....nor does it make the consumer a bad guy for seeking out the best deal and going with it.

Good points about places selling below wholesale. The example you mention seems to be similar to what Wal*Mart is doing here. Drive the competition out of business...then jack up the prices. In some states it is illegal to sell below your cost. That's probably not a bad idea- but price-fixing to keep prices artificially high, is just as bad...if not worse. I tend to think that having a truly free market is the best thing for everybody- as the more artificial constraints we put on the market, the more it hurts both consumers and businesses.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

SolitaryRider said:


> As for the red herring bike- I don't think that really matters. For whatever reason one place was selling theirs for substantially less than another- and the consumer did some comparison shopping and took advantage of the best deal. That's what it's all about.
> 
> Maybe he could have found a shop was going out of business and liquidating....the fact remains, he found a good deal and it worked out well for him. Maybe there was no way in the world the LBS could have competed. So what? When you go to buy something, you don't ask the sller how he can afford to sell it so cheap, or why he charges so much....you just go with the best deal, right? It doesn't mean that the LBS is a bad guy....nor does it make the consumer a bad guy for seeking out the best deal and going with it.
> 
> Good points about places selling below wholesale. The example you mention seems to be similar to what Wal*Mart is doing here. Drive the competition out of business...then jack up the prices. In some states it is illegal to sell below your cost. That's probably not a bad idea- but price-fixing to keep prices artificially high, is just as bad...if not worse. I tend to think that having a truly free market is the best thing for everybody- as the more artificial constraints we put on the market, the more it hurts both consumers and businesses.


True. I wasn't criticising the guy for buying from Jensons. It was a killer deal and he'd have been mad for not taking it. I did take issue with the way it was initially presented, as if the LBS was only knocking $130 off in cash & service, a little skewed. Also the subsequent slating the same LBS got for not matching a price that was way below cost on a bike of that type. Here in the UK a £2800 bike including tax would cost the dealer a shade over £1900 at the very least. To get that margin you would be required to buy in at the beginning of the season (September) a bare minimum of 2 complete bikes and 4 frames. That's a cool £8-10000 investment. If you don't your margin would drop sharply at best or you'd be precluded from ordering that brand. So LBS guy who wasn't prepared to drop his price any further was making just over $600 gross on an item he'd likely paid for months earlier.

WRT asking how a seller can sell so cheap, any customer who doesn't at least ask themselves how the deal can be so sweet is a fool. Jenson more than likely are either dropping Look of vice versa. In each case that means the warranty may be limited to the bare bones. That's a consideration one must take. If you pick up a bike in a closing down sale it's even harder because you have no proper warranty, as the agent is no longer trading. now whether that peace of mind is worth $600 is for the customer to decide, but if I was buying any Look product I'd want the best back up possible!


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

One thing's for sure, Ultimo: The LBS business is a tough racket to make a buck in...... (even before the internet). I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole (Even though it would be a very pleasant business)


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> True. I wasn't criticising the guy for buying from Jensons. It was a killer deal and he'd have been mad for not taking it. I did take issue with the way it was initially presented, as if the LBS was only knocking $130 off in cash & service, a little skewed. Also the subsequent slating the same LBS got for not matching a price that was way below cost on a bike of that type. Here in the UK a £2800 bike including tax would cost the dealer a shade over £1900 at the very least. To get that margin you would be required to buy in at the beginning of the season (September) a bare minimum of 2 complete bikes and 4 frames. That's a cool £8-10000 investment. If you don't your margin would drop sharply at best or you'd be precluded from ordering that brand. So LBS guy who wasn't prepared to drop his price any further was making just over $600 gross on an item he'd likely paid for months earlier.
> 
> WRT asking how a seller can sell so cheap, any customer who doesn't at least ask themselves how the deal can be so sweet is a fool. Jenson more than likely are either dropping Look of vice versa. In each case that means the warranty may be limited to the bare bones. That's a consideration one must take. If you pick up a bike in a closing down sale it's even harder because you have no proper warranty, as the agent is no longer trading. now whether that peace of mind is worth $600 is for the customer to decide, but if I was buying any Look product I'd want the best back up possible!


A warr is a warr as long as the bike is new. Doesn't matter if it's on sale, discounted or year end sale or am I misunderstanding what your saying?


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

*Douche Game*



PlatyPius said:


> I don't have a problem with the customer buying the bike, I have a problem with the brand allowing a large online retailer to sell the bike for less than normal wholesale and therefore screwing the shops that had stocked the bike during the model year. I'm not a LOOK dealer, but I'd almost guarantee that the smaller bike shops never got a chance to buy those model-year closeouts.


Perhaps, that's look like when the douche LBS unfairly label the customer as a "useless douche" or "village naive." In my case, I feel like my LBS treated me like a village naive. So good bye my LBS.....

If the LBS feels like the customer is a douche or village naive, the LBS has the right to not give any discount, or even charge him higher than MSRP. Thus, if the "douche bicycle brand" think that the LBS (or OBS) is a useless douche for them, the brand has the right to supply the bike at higher price. If the OBSs or LBSs think that they are being treated like douche, then just say good bye to the douche brand.


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> I don't have a problem with the customer buying the bike, I have a problem with the brand allowing a large online retailer to sell the bike for less than normal wholesale and therefore screwing the shops that had stocked the bike during the model year. I'm not a LOOK dealer, but I'd almost guarantee that the smaller bike shops never got a chance to buy those model-year closeouts.


Platy, don't fight it ... go with the flow ...
Open a Coffee shop in your store and you will make a killing :thumbsup:


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

flatsix911 said:


> Platy, don't fight it ... go with the flow ...
> Open a Coffee shop in your store and you will make a killing :thumbsup:


Platy does sell _good_ coffee!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

WTFcyclist said:


> Perhaps, that's look like when the douche LBS unfairly label the customer as a "useless douche" or "village naive." In my case, I feel like my LBS treated me like a village naive. So good bye my LBS.....
> 
> If the LBS feels like the customer is a douche or village naive, the LBS has the right to not give any discount, or even charge him higher than MSRP. Thus, if the "douche bicycle brand" think that the LBS (or OBS) is a useless douche for them, the brand has the right to supply the bike at higher price. If the OBSs or LBSs think that they are being treated like douche, then just say good bye to the douche brand.



What is a "village naive"?


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

shokhead said:


> A warr is a warr as long as the bike is new. Doesn't matter if it's on sale, discounted or year end sale or am I misunderstanding what your saying?


Sort of.

I don't know how it works in the US but, here in the UK, your warranty is covered by the Sale of Goods Act & general contract law. As such, although for instance the manufacturer issues the warranty, it is administered by the original vendor of the item. Now most of the time that's fine, but if the shop goes out of business that bells and whistles lifetime warranty is irrelevant. Similarly if the shop stops dealing with the brand it post a fly in the ointment. You still have the warranty but the extent to which the shop can help you out is limited. So you find that you have just the basic statutory minimum.


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## supraholic (Oct 10, 2010)

LBS=Local Bull $h#t

They need to compete to survive and let go of their ego.


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## IainStevens (Sep 27, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> What is a "village naive"?


Perhaps "village idiot" is the better translation?


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## Chico2000 (Jul 7, 2011)

SolitaryRider said:


> The 80's. The couple of shops in Astoria were priced out of this world....so you'd have to go into Manhattan for anything....and it was tricky at that time to even find a decent price there (nothing like what ya find on the internet today)....and the service at the shops in Manhattan was virtually non-existent.....they were there to collect your money, and that was it.
> 
> Now, 30 years later, I can get much better quality stuff and much lower prices than then.....thanks to the internet.
> 
> ...


You shoulda went out to Nassau County...Danny's Ride-A-Way was the bomb. Of course you'd have to avoid getting hit with my back tire as my friends and I were doing tailwhips and other flat land greatness out in front of the shop!


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## Chico2000 (Jul 7, 2011)

bombertodd said:


> I just got into road biking (I've been mountain biking since 2006). I've been shopping for my first road bike all week. Found the bike I liked online for $1,750 and the LBS wanted $2,400. I showed them the online price hoping to get a break and they told me they will include a free fitting (worth $80 listed on their counter) and they can take $50 off the price. I asked the guy if he could do any better and he said no. I left a bought my bike online and drove a hour to pick it up same day. I hope I never hear an employee from this store complain about online bike stores.


What would have made you buy the bike from the LBS?


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

Chico2000 said:


> You shoulda went out to Nassau County...Danny's Ride-A-Way was the bomb. Of course you'd have to avoid getting hit with my back tire as my friends and I were doing tailwhips and other flat land greatness out in front of the shop!


Hmmm.... What town was Danny's in? 

I know when I lived in Suffolk in the 90's, there was nothing good there [that I was aware of]. 

The one shop in my town sold severely marked-up department store kiddie bikes and high-end stuff for =/+MSRP...

Hehe...I remember the dumpy little shop that sold nothing but crap and did repairs [mostly on kiddie bikes] when I was a kid....the owner turned out to be a kid-toucher, and went to jail!


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## Chico2000 (Jul 7, 2011)

SolitaryRider said:


> Hmmm.... What town was Danny's in?
> 
> I know when I lived in Suffolk in the 90's, there was nothing good there [that I was aware of].
> 
> ...


Danny's was in Levittown on Hempstead Tpke ...they moved to Syosset and now still open but called Bicycle Planet.

In Suffolk, Carl Hart Bikes has been around forever. Still there.
Brands Cycles in Wantagh (nassau county) has always been good too.
I live upstate so I don't know how good those shops are now but I know they're still around.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

supraholic said:


> LBS=Local Bull $h#t
> 
> They need to compete to survive and let go of their ego.


Ego has nothing to do with not being able to compete on price...


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> What is a "village naive"?


a villager who is credulous, or uncritical. 

For example, a naive guy who has a 29er MTB bought from his LBS (he knew this LBS manager for 3 years and his friend's son used to work there.)

1) He went back to his LBS again with his 29er to look for a rigid fork. *LBS order the unsuitable fork (442mm axle to crown)*. LBS said it cost ..... but did not ask for deposit

2) A week later he went back but he cannot remember how much that fork is, because he did not ask the LBS manager to print out anything. He drop the bike off and let the LBS install this unsuitable and most expensive ($140) Salsa Fargo fork version 1, plus he has to pay the most expensive fork swapping fee in the world ($40), and plus tax.

3) *He found out that his pedals always hit the ground (BB is too low) when he went on bike trail*. He asked via e-mail whether he can return it or not? *The LBS politely rejected*, because he used it for quite awhile and it useless for LBS because the steer tube was cut. 

4) The naive guy did not learn his lesson. He wants to upgrade his drivetrain to Shimano Alfine 8 internal gear hub so he looked for the part name/spec/code on Shimano website, then he e-mailed the LBS manager and ask for a rough quote. The LBS manager replied the e-mail saying something like this: """We have built the Shimano Alfine 8 bikes. The process is to put a deposit..... I think that...this part is around $$$ but I'm not sure.... ,See you soon!..."""" This is completely BS answer because he has sent the part names/codes and ask for the quote.

5) But he went to his LBS again. This time he has to put a deposit for this order, so he asked for the quote of the parts again. He honestly said that he might not upgrade if it takes too much money. _LBS manager replied_: "Hmmm, I will print out the deposit, can you give me your credit card?" _A naive guy_: "Can you print out the list of the part and price first?" _LBS manager_: *"It takes time and labor to search for the part if you decided not to upgrade then I could waste my time."* LBS manager spouted out BS again! LBS used to built custom bikes with Shimano Alfine 8 and the naive guy just e-mail LBS manager to ask how much the main parts cost. What about the time that his customer search for the part, read the manual, e-mail, drive to the shop? Didn't LBS manager think about that? 

Yes, that's naive guy became a skeptical WTF cyclist! :mad2::mad2:

WTF? I don't know whether the LBS manager is incompetent or he was using "LBS stupid trick." Yeahhhh, you, my friend, a naive villager, a whole process is maybe around $$$! Give me your credit card first even though you still didn't know how much I will charge for the hubs and other main parts!


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## WTFcyclist (Jan 17, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> Ego has nothing to do with not being able to compete on price...


The headline on my local newspaper stated that my LBS has a world class service. Then look what I've got? The most expensive Salsa Fargo version 1 in the world + the most expensive swapping fee + unsuitable fork for my 29er.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

WTFcyclist said:


> The headline on my local newspaper stated that my LBS has a world class service. Then look what I've got? The most expensive Salsa Fargo version 1 in the world + the most expensive swapping fee + unsuitable fork for my 29er.


Yeah...
I don't like saying it, but your local shop sucks balls. Shops like that cause people like what's-his-name above to paint all bike shops with the same brush.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

WTFcyclist said:


> 1) He went back to his LBS again with his 29er to look for a rigid fork. *LBS order the unsuitable fork (442mm axle to crown)*. LBS said it cost ..... but did not ask for deposit
> 
> 2) A week later he went back but he cannot remember how much that fork is, because he did not ask the LBS manager to print out anything. He drop the bike off and let the LBS install this unsuitable and most expensive ($140) Salsa Fargo fork version 1, plus he has to pay the most expensive fork swapping fee in the world ($40), and plus tax.
> 
> 3) *He found out that his pedals always hit the ground (BB is too low) when he went on bike trail*. He asked via e-mail whether he can return it or not? *The LBS politely rejected*, because he used it for quite awhile and it useless for LBS because the steer tube was cut.


Funny thing is this scenario is covered where I live by government legislation that would be easy to apply without recourse to legal action.

Goods sold must be "fit for purpose and of merchandisable quality". The very fact that the forks they supplied were the wrong ones for the frame they had initially supplied means that the fact that the forks have been used and the steerer is cut is irrelevant. As such they would be legally bound to take them back and refund all monies paid. Any competent mechanic would take one look at the bike and the fork and say "no, won't work" or at the very least see that the bike they had fitted the fork to was substantially different in geometry.

the only out for the shop is where a customer orders parts despite the shops advice they are incompatible. In such instances I have insisted on a waiver being signed before handing the bike over on completion.


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## F45 (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't know what to think of my LBS. I know the guys pretty well, ride with them, they do business with other members of my family, etc.... I went there last summer and asked what new wheels they recommended because I was getting tired of my old ones. They recommended the Shimano Ultegra wheels which the owner had on his bike. They looked nice. I said how much, and he hemmed and hawed, and said he'd have to order them for me. I said ok. Then he said he wasn't huge volume dealer so his price wasn't that great. Ok, so you don't want to sell me a set of wheels? I got some DA 7850 online later.

Last month I went to get a new set of shorts and a jersey and the owner said, "You know they are having a huge sale down at XXX bike shop this week. All clothing is at least 25% marked down"

So I was like, cool, thanks, I'll take these water bottles, socks, and do you have any of those "gutter" type plastic sweatbands? He said, "No we don't have any, and you don't have to buy the bottles and socks from me"

Like, he made it sound like I was buying the items out of charity or something. 

Trips to LBS last year - 4. Money spent at LBS last year - $0.00.


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## SolitaryRider (Oct 20, 2011)

F45 said:


> I don't know what to think of my LBS. I know the guys pretty well, ride with them, they do business with other members of my family, etc.... I went there last summer and asked what new wheels they recommended because I was getting tired of my old ones. They recommended the Shimano Ultegra wheels which the owner had on his bike. They looked nice. I said how much, and he hemmed and hawed, and said he'd have to order them for me. I said ok. Then he said he wasn't huge volume dealer so his price wasn't that great. Ok, so you don't want to sell me a set of wheels? I got some DA 7850 online later.
> 
> Last month I went to get a new set of shorts and a jersey and the owner said, "You know they are having a huge sale down at XXX bike shop this week. All clothing is at least 25% marked down"
> 
> ...


Well...one thing ya know: The guy is honest! (That's why I'd never do good in retail- I'd be like that guy!- Like the time I did a friend a favor and ran his one-man used car lot for a couple of weeks while he was busy with something else. This lady comes in and wants to buy this HAMMERED old Fireturd for her college-age daughter. What a job I had of talking her out it! )


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Holy Sh!T I can't believe this thread is still going! Can we get to 15 pages without a single new idea added?

Either way, I call this one a WINNER!!!!


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

foto said:


> Holy Sh!T I can't believe this thread is still going! Can we get to 15 pages without a single new idea added?
> 
> Either way, I call this one a WINNER!!!!


Hell yeah, lets see Cav sprint through confetti and streemers like that. 

They are nuts about cycling in Guatemala and Belize.


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