# CX brakes crap ???



## Rob2500 (Oct 4, 2009)

None of the cx bikes ive ridden have good brakes so ive gone off the idea..Can anyone suggest an alternative with decent brakes ?


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2009)

What brakes have you used so far?


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Rob2500 said:


> None of the cx bikes ive ridden have good brakes so ive gone off the idea..Can anyone suggest an alternative with decent brakes ?


Most need pads and proper setting up. I have cheep brakes with good pads that stop well and good brakes with cheep pads that dont.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2009)

A from Il said:


> Most need pads and proper setting up. I have cheep brakes with good pads that stop well and good brakes with cheep pads that dont.



True even on the nice brakes I've had the stock pads sucked.


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## pharding (Sep 30, 2009)

TRP Euro X Magnesium Brakes are the best cyclocross brakes. You may wish to try them. In general cyclocross brakes have less stopping power than road bike brakes.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I really like these pads. My local guy deals in this stuff and threw a set in with the 720's I bought.


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## gormleyflyer2002 (Sep 12, 2005)

cx brakes suck.......nuff said. get a CX bike with disc brakes.......would they work better. ?


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Stopping is over-rated.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

what do you mean "alternative" are you looking to use the bike for cross racing? If so, I agree with others who suggest getting good pads. And yes they will still be a little on the lousy side.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

What are you looking for? I would holdout for ABS.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Most people who complain about Canti Levers, in fact are having problems because of a badly adjusted Cantis, not the fault of the Cantis themselves

Cantis have many parameters that affect the performance, unlikely road calipers that have many of those parameters fixed and tuned by design.

I have my commuter bike built around a CX frame with BR-550s and Swiss Stop pads.

Braking power is strong and modulation are fairly good, they can fully stop me in the middle of traffic and/or when moving obstacles cross my way suddenly ( read pedestrians... ), I only get screeching front brake when wet.

My Cross bike is also setup with BR-550s and I have it with less braking power but more modulation that suits the cross use better. I have though to check up the toe-in periodically ( once a month ) to eliminate shudder.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

pharding said:


> TRP Euro X Magnesium Brakes are the best cyclocross brakes. You may wish to try them. In general cyclocross brakes have less stopping power than road bike brakes.


No and No.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

Simple wide profile cantilevers can be dirt cheap (I'm thinking Tektro 720s) and set up to be more powerful than any other rim brake quite easily. It's amazing how many people don't bother learning how to do this. Brakes like the TRP mags are really nice, but they don't necessarily work any better.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

the other issue with many cross bikes, mine included is lousy cable routing that introduces a lot of friction, especially on the front. I have been using a "noodle" from a v-brake to help make the turn on the front cable before it hits the stop, it seems to help a lot but it's still a 90 degree bend.

Seems like the design is part of the problem, the brakes are built with no real plan for how the cable actually reaches them. I'm constantly messing with brakes because I run different brand wheels. I can't count the number of times the cable has slipped during a race or been tightened so hard it squashed the brake cable.

Just not a great design overall, but that's part of doing a fringe sport, there's no money in making a real innovative brake for cross.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> cx brakes suck.......nuff said. get a CX bike with disc brakes.......


x2:thumbsup:


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## cyklopath (Feb 24, 2007)

9x's out of 10, the brakes are just not set up well. 

We raced mtb and cross on cantis for a longgggg time and did fine with them. They were all we had, so we learned to set them up well. 

Admitedly, they are more difficult to set up than V-brakes and have less power than Vbrakes or discs. However, they can be set up to work just fine! 

Go to your LBS and find a mechanic that wrenched when cantis were all we had. That guy will know what to do. 

In a pinch, the Sheldon Brown article is good for learning how to set them up yourself. 

Personally, I still ride early/mid 90's XTR cantis with Ritchey pads and do just fine with them. I've tried some newer cantis such as the Origin8's, and I really did not like the lack of ability to adjust them. You could adjust their geometry somewhat with the spacers, but it was limited compared to the older style brakes.


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## Thom H (Aug 25, 2009)

Define crap. I can lock up my rear Older XTR, Pauls touring, and Avid Shorty brakes. Compared to XTR V-brakes and disc brakes they do suck. All of my brakes work plenty well for their intended use (ie cyclocross) but would suck as my only line of defense in going over a ledge in high tech mtb applications. Some people just don't get it, you don't need the same brake power in cross as you do in mtb or even road cycling. I have never heard a cross interview include" I would have won hands down if my brakes worked better." Not slowing down is what wins cross. Let the tires do the work.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Try Kool Stop brake pads, they're inexpensive and easy to find. Most usually report a big improvement after trying them.


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

davidka said:


> Try Kool Stop brake pads, they're inexpensive and easy to find. Most usually report a big improvement after trying them.


Yes, I have Avids (which most people say suck) and they work awesome with my new Kool Stop Salmon pads. I've ridden my cross bike on mtn.bike trails and wasn't worried at all about stopping. Huge improvement for me.


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## pharding (Sep 30, 2009)

Swiss Stop brake are pads are excellent for cyclocross brakes. I agree completely with having a knowledgeable cyclocross bike mechanic tune the brakes. It also helps to clean the brake pad and the braking surface of the wheel before you go out each time.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

pharding said:


> Swiss Stop brake are pads are excellent for cyclocross brakes. I agree completely with having a knowledgeable cyclocross bike mechanic tune the brakes. It also helps to *clean the brake pad and the braking surface of the wheel before you go out each time*.


If I had to clean them each time I go for a ride, I'd have to spend quite a lot of time doing that


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## RetroS (Jan 16, 2007)

I agree with the CX brake suckage. Tried many, running Kore Race + now and they are okay. Avid Juicy 7 on the MTB provide so much more control it's not even worth comparing. At least @ a CX race everyone is equal in the braking compartment.


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## morganfletcher (Oct 18, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


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## hooligan (Sep 30, 2006)

pharding said:


> TRP Euro X Magnesium Brakes are the best cyclocross brakes. You may wish to try them. In general cyclocross brakes have less stopping power than road bike brakes.


You're starting to sound like a guy who has too much time and money on his hands. The TRP Euro alloys are less than 50% of what you spec'd and just as good operation plus there are better brakes out there. Most expensive does not mean best performance (or fit in your case).

When you get out and race and test AND ACTUALLY HAVE SOME INFORMED INSIGHT feel free to chime in.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

jroden said:


> but that's part of doing a fringe sport, there's no money in making a real innovative brake for cross.



Not to pick on you, BUT this statement couldn't be anymore false. There ARE other braking options out there. Innovation isn't the problem and money isn't the problem, it's the traditionalists who WILL NOT let innovation happen. Discs........an anti-traditionalists nightmare. They work......great! Far better than canti's and modulate a whole lot better. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Weight penalty is probably 1 lb. If one pound loses a race for you then you were going to lose anyway. I prefer to modulate my brakes in the mud and not have to worry about whether the canti's want to grab (and when they do, lock up the wheel and wipe out.

Always so many threads about how bad canti's are, only to be told you need special pads to make them adequate. Then have people poo poo on discs because they aren't "traditional."


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I dont mind discs on _your_ bike. I have what is on my bike and like it. Pads did make a huge difference.


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## ridenfish39 (Jun 20, 2008)

I hated the TRP Euro alloys and switched to Avid V brakes (with the travel agent). Big difference in stopping power. I prefer strong brakes though since I race expert mtb and am used to disks. I know how to set up cantis too, I have been riding and wrenching for a long time. I even had a U brake on one of my Zaskars.  
I was really happy having V brakes while racing Iron Cross. I also ride a lot of the mountain bike trails on my cx bike, so good brakes help you go into corners further before you brake, and they reduce arm pump. My next cx bike will have disks on it, I don't care what the "purists" think.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

ridenfish39 said:


> ...I prefer strong brakes though since I race expert mtb and am used to disks.
> ...
> I was really happy having V brakes while racing Iron Cross. I also ride a lot of the mountain bike trails on my cx bike


All this is fine, but it's clear your primary use for a cross bike is not cross racing. Therefore, it makes sense that what works for racing is not ideal for you.

In response to the comment that 1 lb was not going to lose you a race, that's true, but 1 lb is also a lot more weight to carry around on your way to 1st place or 50th. I like light bikes, and once you've got a light frame, wheels, drivetrain, etc. 1 lb of brakes is a huge amount. Cantis do just fine for cyclocross racing, are inexpensive and weigh very little. What's not to like?


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## Rob2500 (Oct 4, 2009)

*Have tried cantis and mini v*

I dont want a cyciocross bike for racing.Its intended use is river trails,gravel roads,commuting and easier mtb tracks.Ive got a reign one with juicy 7 on it and my road bike has105 calipers so you know what im used to.It was a rude shock test riding the cx bikes and it put me off them.


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## akrafty1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I run the TRP Euros. I can stop on a dime. Had no problems at Iron Cross with em. You just have to set them up right.

I generally try not to use my brakes while racing... they slow me down too much. With my limited abilities I need all the speed I can get!


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

pharding said:


> TRP Euro X Magnesium Brakes are the best cyclocross brakes. You may wish to try them. In general cyclocross brakes have less stopping power than road bike brakes.


Throw some money at the problem.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

jmoote said:


> All this is fine, but it's clear your primary use for a cross bike is not cross racing. Therefore, it makes sense that what works for racing is not ideal for you.
> 
> In response to the comment that 1 lb was not going to lose you a race, that's true, but 1 lb is also a lot more weight to carry around on your way to 1st place or 50th. I like light bikes, and once you've got a light frame, wheels, drivetrain, etc. 1 lb of brakes is a huge amount. Cantis do just fine for cyclocross racing, are inexpensive and weigh very little. What's not to like?



So if I built you a 16 lb disc equipped bike you wouldn't ride it?

Also quite a few of the recommended canti's in this thread cost more than discs. Plus if Avid ever releases the BB9, the weight difference will be even far less. AND if I told you to pick up two bikes whose weight was exactly 453 grams apart, you most certainly could not tell the difference.


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## DuGast (Aug 11, 2005)

TRP is crap. Use Spooky's


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

88 rex said:


> So if I built you a 16 lb disc equipped bike you wouldn't ride it?


Not if I could put cantis on it and have a 15 lb bike.



> AND if I told you to pick up two bikes whose weight was exactly 453 grams apart, you most certainly could not tell the difference.


Think whatever you want, but you're wrong. My bike gains and looses a pound when switching between training and race wheels and I can most definitely tell the difference.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

jmoote said:


> Think whatever you want, but you're wrong. My bike gains and looses a pound when switching between training and race wheels and I can most definitely tell the difference.


Just so we're clear. I'm not against people running canti's, I'm just against those who argue against disc. 

And if you are talking about rotating mass and how it feels when you are pedaling, then yes, 453grams will matter. If you are talking about 453 grams in components, then no, it won't matter enough to notice, IME.

I've made my point. So no point in me beating this dead horse anymore. I just hope that people realize that the "prevention of innovation" is a direct result of the unwarranted rules set forth by the UCI and backed by traditionalists.


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## akrafty1 (Apr 10, 2006)

No Spookies are crap. 

Use TRP




Whateva... just ride the damn bike.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

88 rex said:


> Just so we're clear. I'm not against people running canti's, I'm just against those who argue against disc.
> 
> And if you are talking about rotating mass and how it feels when you are pedaling, then yes, 453grams will matter. If you are talking about 453 grams in components, then no, it won't matter enough to notice, IME.
> 
> I've made my point. So no point in me beating this dead horse anymore. I just hope that people realize that the "prevention of innovation" is a direct result of the unwarranted rules set forth by the UCI and backed by traditionalists.


AFAIK, if you set up disc brakes you are adding to the rotational mass, whereas Cantis are on the frame.

Also I read somewhere that disc specific hubs force a narrower space for the wheel spokes affecting the wheel's strenght and stiffness


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Salsa_Lover said:


> AFAIK, if you set up disc brakes you are adding to the rotational mass, whereas Cantis are on the frame.
> 
> Also I read somewhere that disc specific hubs force a narrower space for the wheel spokes affecting the wheel's strenght and stiffness



1) Rotors.......don't have to weigh a ton. Plus they are close to the hub. I don't have actual numbers, so I'm sure someone can back the physics up as to how much weight and where rotational mass affects spin up. In any case, aftermarket rotors drop a lot of weight.

2) I don't know what to tell you. I would think it would be pretty obvious by now that 29'er mountain bike wheels are built plenty strong. I think the strength/stiffness argument against disc set-ups is at best weak. Actually, quite ridiculous the more I think about it.


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## astrat (Oct 6, 2009)

Run a set of middle of the line v brakes, like avid single digits. You'll need a new set of levers too, because canti and vbrakes have different pull ratios. Cane Creek makes a nice set of vbrake levers to fit a drop bar. 

The Kore brakes that came stock on my Major One are SH!T, but some canti brakes can be set up tight enough to flip you over the bars.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

88 rex said:


> 29'er mountain bike wheels are built plenty strong. I think the strength/stiffness argument against disc set-ups is at best weak. Actually, quite ridiculous the more I think about it.


Sure, 29er wheels are plenty strong. I like mine quite a bit. I haven't seen any 1200g 29er wheels though, and I wouldn't put myself on any that are much under 1650g. Wheels that weigh 1650g as an absolute minimum is a laughable thought for cross racing.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

jmoote said:


> Sure, 29er wheels are plenty strong. I like mine quite a bit. I haven't seen any 1200g 29er wheels though, and I wouldn't put myself on any that are much under 1650g. Wheels that weigh 1650g as an absolute minimum is a laughable thought for cross racing.



Ok, you clearly don't get it. 

1) I simply mentioned 29'ers due to the fact that that is where disc hubs are most in use, and with rims that have the same exact ERD as your 700c CX wheels (I.E. THEY ARE THE SAME SIZE). The strength was in question, and clearly the strength is a non-issue.

2) Whatever rim you have now on your 1200g wheels......that is the same rim you would use. Nothing there has changed.

3) My mountain bike wheels weigh less that 1650g and they are not 26" rims and I ride/race them. 

4) It's ufortunate that you think anything less than 1650g is unusable for yourself, which is odd since you race 1200g wheels for CX. There are guys racing sub 1000g mountain bike wheels. They are the obvious exception, but they are doing it and they are working.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

The weight penalty is still heavy enough that nobody would switch to discs if the UCI rule were changed.

The current UCI rules (no disc brakes, no tires >35mm, drop bars) are fine. They preserve a certain look and feel to the sport with no downside. And we amateurs still have plenty of choices if we decide to run something different.


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

I wouldn't switch to discs at this point on my CX bike regardless right now since I cannot afford to buy 2 or 3 extra sets of new disc hubbed wheels UCI rule or not. I can definately see the attraction of discs for people who are not setting up a very race specific bike. I have discs on my 29er and I won't be going back to rim brakes of any kind ever.

Jeff


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

pretender said:


> The weight penalty is still heavy enough that nobody would switch to discs if the UCI rule were changed.
> 
> The current UCI rules (no disc brakes, no tires >35mm, drop bars) are fine. They preserve a certain look and feel to the sport with no downside. And we amateurs still have plenty of choices if we decide to run something different.



Great, now your speaking on behalf of the entire UCI field. Maybe we should ask them. "Hey Adam Craig, what do you think we should do about brakes in CX?"

http://www.velonews.com/article/9054

And a 15 lb bike is a 15lb bike, regardless of brakes. Given the option between a 15 lb disc equipped bike and a 15 lb canti equipped bike, I'd bet my bike most would take the disc equipped bike. 

Run what you want, but let me run what I want.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

88 rex said:


> Run what you want, but let me run what I want.


You can run whatever you want if you don't want to compete in UCI cyclocross races.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

pretender said:


> You can run whatever you want if you don't want to compete in UCI cyclocross races.



That is all fine and dandy, but UCI rules strongly dictate what bikes the manufactures will and will not produce. There are exceptions, but OVERALL the rules are hindering the development of such bikes.


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## dc.cyclocross (Oct 5, 2007)

88 rex said:


> Great, now your speaking on behalf of the entire UCI field. Maybe we should ask them. "Hey Adam Craig, what do you think we should do about brakes in CX?"
> 
> https://www.velonews.com/article/9054
> 
> .


but now his new carbon Giant has wide angle TRPs

https://cxmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/carbon-giant-adam-craig/cxm-giant-img_2272-sm.jpg

https://cxmagazine.com/adam-craigs-giant-carbon-prototype-gallery


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

88 rex said:


> That is all fine and dandy, but UCI rules strongly dictate what bikes the manufactures will and will not produce. There are exceptions, but OVERALL the rules are hindering the development of such bikes.


This may sound obvious but it is clearly not for you.

Cyclocross is a cycling discipline one century old that has tradition and history involved into it, and this is also reflected in the equipement used for it

The UCI rules are "dictated" to preserve the purity of a given cycling discipline within some limits.

If UCI allowed Cyclocross to be run on disk brakes ( or flat bars or wide tyres ) we would end having 29er MTB races and not Cyclocross races.


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> This may sound obvious but it is clearly not for you.
> 
> Cyclocross is a cycling discipline one century old that has tradition and history involved into it, and this is also reflected in the equipement used for it
> 
> ...


Much of the equipment that is "good" in cross, e.g. sti shift levers, carbon wheels, carbon frames and parts, was all brought over from road designs. Much of the frustrating and marginal equipment like the brakes and tires we use is specific to our sport. I think the sport would be better if the UCI imposed a weight limit of say 18 lbs so people could run the disks w/o a penalty. They are a better product for cross racing than the rim brakes and would prove to be a safer setup.

On a properly designed course the cross bikes should be faster. In the non-elite races I don't tend to see MTB's having an advantage.

I generally like the UCI's rule making the last few years, I wish they would take a deep breath and ban aero bars in time trials, but that's another topic.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Salsa_Lover said:


> This may sound obvious but it is clearly not for you.
> 
> Cyclocross is a cycling discipline one century old that has tradition and history involved into it, and this is also reflected in the equipement used for it
> 
> ...



This may come as a shocker, but I happen to think CX is a blast. It is for me. It is bike racing. I LOVE LOVE LOVE bike racing. And believe it or not, cycling has been around longer than CX. Maybe it is the traditionalists and purists who need to be reminded on the origination of CX. 

You can take your "pure" and "traditional" carbon cx bike on carbon rims with your clipless pedals and STI shifters (x3 btw since you apparently need one bike per lap) and keep telling yourself you are preserving something. 

I


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Origination?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

pretender said:


> Origination?



What's your question?


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## EricN (Apr 9, 2009)

My norcal brakes on my a bike kick ass, neo-retro front with touring canti rear using carbon pads. Stop fantastic, better with carbon wheels than with aluminum wheels as experienced this weekend, woah!

B setup is TRPs for maximum clearance, can't run a touring canti if it's the portland oregon leaf muck I've heard so much about..

I love the TRPs, but the pauls have a better feel. May be I'm just used to em after a few years... If I didn't have em I would just run TRPs to be honest with their price point. Bending some brakes is a one time deal with cartridges


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

88 rex said:


> What's your question?


Whether you are aware the word _origin_ exists.


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## Travis (Oct 14, 2005)

can we get back to talking about how Paul brakes are the best? Mine work fine and my previous stock brakes were really lame


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

In a race the only time I'd need my brakes to bring me to a complete stop (hopefully) is when I cross the finish line. Other than that they are for controlling my speed. 

I'm all for rules that keep cross more traditional to a point. Every type of racing has evolved over the years. If it didn't we'd still be riding with downtube shifters or running 26" cruiser bikes down Repack. The UCI rule preventing the use of discs in cross is in no way preventing innovation in cycling technology ATMO. 

Ride what you like and like what you ride....

Jeff


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Rob2500 said:


> I dont want a cyciocross bike for racing.Its intended use is river trails,gravel roads,commuting and easier mtb tracks.Ive got a reign one with juicy 7 on it and my road bike has105 calipers so you know what im used to.It was a rude shock test riding the cx bikes and it put me off them.




get a 29er w/ discs... something akin to a karate monkey


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

jroden said:


> the other issue with many cross bikes, mine included is lousy cable routing that introduces a lot of friction, especially on the front. I have been using a "noodle" from a v-brake to help make the turn on the front cable before it hits the stop, it seems to help a lot but it's still a 90 degree bend.
> 
> Seems like the design is part of the problem, the brakes are built with no real plan for how the cable actually reaches them. I'm constantly messing with brakes because I run different brand wheels. I can't count the number of times the cable has slipped during a race or been tightened so hard it squashed the brake cable.
> 
> Just not a great design overall, but that's part of doing a fringe sport, there's no money in making a real innovative brake for cross.


I don't know if this would suit your frame, but the fork-mounted housing stop offered here
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/cable-hardware-brake.html really does smooth out the routing. There's no provision for a barrel adjuster.


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## unclefuzzy_ss (Nov 23, 2002)

ZoomBoy said:


> In a race the only time I'd need my brakes to bring me to a complete stop (hopefully) is when I cross the finish line. Other than that they are for controlling my speed.
> 
> Ride what you like and like what you ride....
> 
> Jeff


It took this long for someone to say this??? When I'm racing, I DON'T want to stop. I only need my brakes to slow me down. That's it. No more, no less. As long as I scrub speed coming into sharp corners, I'm good. 

Don't even get me started on discs on cross bikes.


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

Really now, how many times a year must we have this conversation?

It's long been boring, none of you are making any new points.


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## nwmtb (Mar 5, 2004)

*Bg*



cogswell23 said:


> Really now, how many times a year must we have this conversation?
> 
> It's long been boring, none of you are making any new points.




Bruce Gordon canti's work really well for me. Plus they're about as gorgeous as they get.


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

88 rex said:


> You can take your "pure" and "traditional" carbon cx bike on carbon rims with your clipless pedals and STI shifters (x3 btw since you apparently need one bike per lap) and keep telling yourself you are preserving something.
> 
> I


THANK YOU!


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