# For road disc... DTSwiss vs WI Hubs



## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Back again 

The guy assembling my bike came out strongly in favor of DTSwiss over WI hubs. My concern with the DTSwiss (pricing aside) was the "warnings" I heard about the aluminium getting gouged by the gog assembly over time. He felt the DTSwiss were actually the more robust hubset over the life of the wheelset (he esp didn't like the tiny screws that held the adjustment in place though another builder I spoke with pooh-pooed that)

I've heard a few folks champion the longevity of the WIs. 

The geometry of the DTSwiss (i read here) would lead to less dish and so more even spoke tension that the WIs. I'm curious whether the introduction of disc breaks into the equation changes how concerned one should be about that.

P.S. For those who care... i'm deciding between HED Belgium or Velocity Aileron (32H/32H)

Gotta decide soon or my new frame will just be sitting in the shop


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Personally, I would choose the HED Belgiums with the White Industries hubs hands down!

Your concerns about the alloy freehub is legitimate - especially if you are a strong or heavy rider. They guy who is assembling your bike is probably a DT Swiss dealer and would have to special order WI hubs. So he is making things easier for him, not you. WI hubs are more robust.

There are better choices than Velocity rims. HED rims are excellent, but pricey. There are some good options from H+ Son and DT Swiss (yes, they do make some nice rims) as well if you don't want to spend as much.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Just to add that uneven spoke tensions are not an issue for a competent wheel builder using quality components. If I make the DS tension 130kgF, my NDS tension falls around 55kgF which is perfectly adequate. Any improvement due to hub geometry will be minuscule. There is really no need to overthink this.

And that is on a rim brake rear wheel. For a disc brake rear wheel, it is even less of an issue.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

hebecb said:


> (he esp didn't like the tiny screws that held the adjustment in place though another builder I spoke with pooh-pooed that)


Realistically your choice isn't going to make a difference. They'll both do what hubs need to do for a very long time.

Did he say why he didn't like how WI hubs are adjusted? Personally I think it works like a charm for ease of use, and I'm the not the most mechanically gifted person around. I've never had one go out of adjustment nor have I heard of that being a problem for others. I only know how to use it because I took apart my hub only because I wanted to learn how.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

I've built lots of wheels w/ both DT and WI. While I like DT hubs nothing pisses me off like a stack of cogs that's stuck on the freehub because of notching. That usually leads to the customer picking WI for wheels I build. I'd also go HED all day every day over Velocity.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I have nearly identical sets of HED Belgium Plus wheels. One with WI and one with DT 240s.

They are both on disc brake bikes. One with 12mm front and the other with 15mm front.

I've not had problems with notching on either, and I'm not a wheel builder. Neither has even had to be trued, so stability is not a problem.

I like both of them just fine, but if I were going to have to pick just one to keep it would be the WI no question. This is based on my own very subjective "general impressions". They just feel nice (smoother and quieter), well made, like something that will last a lifetime of well maintained.



Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## bumpride (Jul 7, 2017)

BOTH DT 240 and WI have been around for so long there should be no issues if you have a good wheel builder and have a good lacing pattern. As for rims... HED rims everytime! 

But it really comes down with how much bling you want? DT has only 1 style of hub while you can choose from many different colors for WI.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Realistically your choice isn't going to make a difference. They'll both do what hubs need to do for a very long time.
> ...
> Did he say why he didn't like how WI hubs are adjusted?


In answer to your question: since I've not seen the hub personally I will try to paraphrase what he and another person told me. After you adjust the hub, you put a retainer(?) of sorts in and that is held by 2mm screws. He didn't like that. The other I spoke to didn't agree.... he thought that was not a big deal since you wouldn't be going in there much.

Which brings me to the first sentence I quoted... I've had these Chorus Hubs on my bike since I bought it in 2002 and they still spin forever up in the stand and I've done almost nothing to them (they are on their second rim set - mavics). They are still smooth as glass... i want that again! :-D


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

hebecb said:


> In answer to your question: since I've not seen the hub personally I will try to paraphrase what he and another person told me. After you adjust the hub, you put a retainer(?) of sorts in and that is held by 2mm screws. *He didn't like that.* The other I spoke to didn't agree.... he thought that was not a big deal since you wouldn't be going in there much.
> 
> Which brings me to the first sentence I quoted... I've had these Chorus Hubs on my bike since I bought it in 2002 and they still spin forever up in the stand and I've done almost nothing to them (they are on their second rim set - mavics). They are still smooth as glass... i want that again! :-D


okay, so he has no reason. The way they are adjusted is a positive not a negative. It's really easy and works. There's no problem with that.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I'll concur with the majority here. I prefer WI over DT. The titanium freehub body is a great way to increase the durability of the hub. 

The DT 350 is a good bargain though. It's a lot less expensive than the 240 and is basically the same thing. My only gripe is trying to track down the correct configuration I need and finding it in stock.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Here is a good, albeit older review on hubs. Both of the hubs you are considering are listed here:

https://tinyurl.com/yd6qjpfn 

One of the minuses they mention for DT hubs is an expensive special toolkit you will need for bearing replacement.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lombard said:


> One of the minuses they mention for DT hubs is an expensive special toolkit you will need for bearing replacement.


AFAIK only the ring drive removal tool is needed as a special tool for DT hubs. The ring drive must be removed to get the drive side hub shell bearing out. The rest of the kit is made up of bearing driver bushings those can be improvised just like for any other hub with tap-out, tap-in cartridge bearings.

I owned DT240 hubs for 4 years and that's my understanding as I never overhauled mine. If I'm fulla chitt, please disregard all of the above. In the presence of White Industries hubs I can't think of one good reason to go the DT240 hub route.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike,

The Ti vs. alloy freehub and more robust design in general would be enough for me to chose the White Industries T11 over the DT.

Now here's a question. If you had your druthers irrespective of cost or weight, which hub would you chose - White Industries T11 or Dura-Ace 9000? I know both are top notch hubs, but are there any distinct advantages or disadvantages of one over the other? Possibly the better engagement on the T11? I know the T11 is a little noisier than Shimano, but not as loud as a DT.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Now here's a question. If you had your druthers irrespective of cost or weight, which hub would you chose - White Industries T11 or Dura-Ace 9000? I know both are top notch hubs, but are there any distinct advantages or disadvantages of one over the other? Possibly the better engagement on the T11?


I've had both for maybe 15k miles each and haven't noticed anything that would cause me pick on over they other. Both are flawless.

Edit: Actually that's not quite true. The DA hubs I have are 7900 not 9000. No clue about 9000 specifically.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lombard said:


> The Ti vs. alloy freehub and more robust design in general would be enough for me to chose the White Industries T11 over the DT.


I agree on the freehub material but I put my DT240 through 4 years or MTB training and racing without issues until the body split (I know...I'm such a brute). It took a lot of punishment.



> If you had your druthers


I have them and they're right here. They're a nice set and still look like new.



> irrespective of cost or weight, which hub would you chose - White Industries T11 or Dura-Ace 9000?


Well.............I have or have had, King, DT240, White, Dura-Ace and BHS hubs.

Here's my opinion -
King - too expensive to buy again. Alum drive shell (I prefer Ti). Mega$ special tool to fully overhaul the rear hub.
DT240 - an ok hub. I prefer a Ti cassette body.
White - Ti cassette body (!!), simple mechanics. 
Dura-Ace - my current choice for my "keeper" road wheels. Ti cassette body. Beautifully made. I got a killer deal on a few sets of 10spd ones so that's the main reason they are my #1 choice - but they would be my equal first choice hub with the Whites.
BHS - excellent for their cost. My hub choice for my "tester" wheels (rims, spokes, nipples). Here's mine -


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I agree on the freehub material but I put my DT240 through 4 years or MTB training and racing without issues until the body split (I know...I'm such a brute). It took a lot of punishment.
> 
> 
> I have them and they're right here. They're a nice set and still look like new.
> ...


So it sounds like you like the T11 and DA just about equally. I'm vacillating on these two for my next wheel build. Will either of these choices be OK to build a radial heads-in front wheel?

And you plagiarized those BHS hubs?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Between DA and WI I prefer WI. 

1) Quicker engagement
2) Better flange geometry
3) Weighs marginally less (gram counting, but I'm breaking a close match)
4) More spoke count and color options
5) MUSA if that matters

DA do come with awesome skewers I will say. Otherwise, they aren't the hidden gem they used to be.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lombard said:


> So it sounds like you like the T11 and DA just about equally.


If I had to run out and buy a set it would be a wash. All the good points Ergot brought up don't bother me - the DA have the right spoke numbers for me (and IMO most people)



> I'm vacillating


Careful you don't go blind 



> Will either of these choices be OK to build a radial heads-in front wheel?


I guess so. I don't think either one has a radial warning. I would never build a heads-in as I just don't like the look. My 24/28 DA are all heads out radial (as are my BHS). My DA & Ulteg 32h are x3.



> And you plagiarized those BHS hubs?


I had to Google that word as I'm not so intellectual. The answer is "yes, just like the other 5,000 re-sellers of Asian sourced hubs who have their company name etched on them". BTW, Brandon at BHS will etch Lombard on a set if you like. If Bitex (if that's who makes 'em) aren't proud enough to put their name on them then they leave a blank canvas.


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## biscut (Dec 15, 2016)

The answer is either. 

For road use, how would a rider actually distinguish from the standard engagement of a DT stock ratchet v WI?? Only way I can see is audible. A very, very knowledgeable and well known rider turned me to the vanilla DT 350. Pretty hard to beat for maintenance and price point. I'm a Clyde and I hammer my mt Bikes with DT 350 36T and Onyx hubs. Very stout. This is constant on em and off em on technical steep terrain. Road rides are pretty game compared to mtb use. 

Jumping to a 240 is a big let down...only save some weight on the shell. 

To OP you should be pretty solid with either choice.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Thank for the info, guys!

Mike, are looks the only reason builders usually lace heads-out radial wheels? I read here from one of the respected wheel builders not too long ago that heads-in gives you a slightly better bracing angle, which makes sense. 

Ergott,

Quicker engagement might be nice, but I'm thinking it usually comes at the expense of extra freehub noise. 

As far as weight, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the rear WI hub weighs very slightly more than the DA. The front WI hub weighs less though.

I'm building 24/32 spoke count which both options have. I love any color as long as it's black. 

What is MUSA?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

One more thing I would like to stress. If you haven't already, before you start your project, there are two very valuable resources:

1) Roger Musson's Guide to Professional Wheelbuilding eBook. This is the best $12 you will ever spend and comes with free lifetime updates:

Wheelbuilding book for cycle wheels 

2) Mike Tech's Wheelbuilding website. It's FREE and he visits and comments on this forum regularly. Very helpful info:

http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels.htm#Wheelbuilding


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## tka (Jun 11, 2014)

I can't help you on the hubs as the only DT Swiss hubs I have any experience with are the DT 350 (FWIW I'd use them again,) and have never used WI hubs, but if you are considering HED Belgium rims also look at the DT Swiss R460. Virtually identical dimensions, build quality is excellent, and they are about 1/2 the price of the HEDs. I have wheelsets built up with both the HED Belgium and R460. They are both excellent wheels - I can't tell a difference between them when I ride - but my wallet likes the R460 much better.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

HED Belgium + WI T11 + Sapim cxray spokes = a nice wheel set. 

I've got two sets of them. There's cheaper ways to get it done, but in the long run, you're saving a fraction of a cent per mile.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

You guys are awesome thanks! 

Based on your thoughts (here and elsewhere), I'm going with HED Belgium + WI CLD (in blue!) with 32H front and back.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Good choices Hebecb!

Now, which spokes and nipples are you going to get?


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

hebecb said:


> You guys are awesome thanks!
> 
> Based on your thoughts (here and elsewhere), I'm going with HED Belgium + WI CLD (in blue!) with 32H front and back.


You might not need 32f/32r. The folks who built my wheels (psimet) recommended 24f/28r and I weigh 200 lbs. I asked about 32/32 and the owner said it won't be any stronger of a wheel. I've been riding one pair for a few years now and they're perfectly true.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Good choices Hebecb!
> 
> Now, which spokes and nipples are you going to get?


Well you guys scared me off the annodized alloys otherwise I probably would have gone with blue alloy nips but now i'm thinking silver (perhaps DT double butted) spokes and black brass... for some reason the silver spokes feel right for my Ti (sandblasted) frame.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

hebecb said:


> Well you guys scared me off the annodized alloys otherwise I probably would have gone with blue alloy nips but now i'm thinking silver (perhaps DT double butted) spokes and black brass... for some reason the silver spokes feel right for my Ti (sandblasted) frame.


Brass nips and double butted spokes - more good choices!


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> You might not need 32f/32r. The folks who built my wheels (psimet) recommended 24f/28r and I weigh 200 lbs. I asked about 32/32 and the owner said it won't be any stronger of a wheel. I've been riding one pair for a few years now and they're perfectly true.


24/28 is fine for rim brake wheels. For disc, I would advise 32/32.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Brass nips and double butted spokes - more good choices!


I've had good advice ;-)


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Lombard said:


> 24/28 is fine for rim brake wheels. For disc, I would advise 32/32.


Why is that? Just curious. 

I don't get this disc brake thing, but to each his own.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Lombard said:


> 24/28 is fine for rim brake wheels. For disc, I would advise 32/32.


Exactly. Although I've had some folks suggest lower even for disc brakes, i'm concerned about the extra stresses of disc brakes so... 

These are gonna be all-around wheels for a while. I do a number of supported double centuries and other rides where I might be willing to try a lighter wheelset (and this way I may be able to demo some before pulling the trigger).


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

pmf said:


> Why is that? Just curious.
> 
> I don't get this disc brake thing, but to each his own.


According to my research, disc brakes put more stress on the spokes near the hub. 

As for why.... while I don't do much rain riding (NorCal it's compressed into a few months) I do have a lot of long twisty descents. The improved reliability of braking pressure as well as no longer having to worry about rim heat-ups is what drew me towards disc brakes. 

I'm not a "weight weenie" so that's not as much of a concern (though for the really long hilly rides it's a bummer) and I have another way to shed 2-3 pounds if I need to ;-)


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pmf said:


> Why is that? Just curious.
> 
> I don't get this disc brake thing, but to each his own.


Hebecb answered this pretty well.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Lombard said:


> 24/28 is fine for rim brake wheels. For disc, I would advise 32/32.


I dont disagree about more stress, but I have yet to see a wheel where someone said a spoke broke when I was grabbing the brake. Not to say it hasn't happened. I'm sure tandeems and tourings bikes could give issue. But I have yet to see a it with normal bikes with disc.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Enoch562 said:


> I dont disagree about more stress, but I have yet to see a wheel where someone said a spoke broke when I was grabbing the brake. Not to say it hasn't happened. I'm sure tandeems and tourings bikes could give issue. But I have yet to see a it with normal bikes with disc.


Perhaps but.... I run 32 front and back now with my rim brakes. They are strong and true. I've decided not to go lower upon moving to the new brake system


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Enoch562 said:


> I dont disagree about more stress, but I have yet to see a wheel where someone said a spoke broke when I was grabbing the brake. Not to say it hasn't happened. I'm sure tandeems and tourings bikes could give issue. But I have yet to see a it with normal bikes with disc.


But how many disc brake wheels exist that have less than 28 spokes? Note that new Cannondale Synapse rim brake bikes used to come with 16/20 spoke wheels. Their disc brake versions come with at least 28/28 spoke wheels.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

I'd never use what OEM wheel sets are doing as a proxy for what anyone should do. They are designed with two things in mind - to be useful on every size of bike in that model's range for every weight of rider who might ride one, and aesthetics. 

Disc brake rear wheels are somewhat stronger than rim brake wheels, spoke for spoke. Flange spacing is 5mm wider on disc wheels (assuming 135mm OLD spacing), and that 5mm makes a ton of difference. 

Disc brake front wheels are somewhat weaker than rim brake wheels, spoke for spoke. Flange spacing is narrower (still 100mm OLD, but you need to fit a rotor in there) and the wheel is dished. Front wheels are pretty freaking strong anyway.

24/28 disc wheels can have a ton of applicability, as can other combos. I've raced two cross seasons on 24/24 without having to do anything to the wheels, except that now I have to replace a rear rim because I ride a cross bike like a bull in a china shop and the rear rim is dented like crazy.


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

Lombard said:


> But how many disc brake wheels exist that have less than 28 spokes? Note that new Cannondale Synapse rim brake bikes used to come with 16/20 spoke wheels. Their disc brake versions come with at least 28/28 spoke wheels.


24/28 seems to be the most common build I run into. I'm sure Nove Dave has a plethora of them out there. Most of the Zipps I see are 24/24. Its the whole I need more spokes for a disc road bike thing I dont agree with. I'm all for more spokes, but it just doesn't seem to be a issue.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Enoch562 said:


> 24/28 seems to be the most common build I run into. I'm sure Nove Dave has a plethora of them out there. Most of the Zipps I see are 24/24. Its the whole I need more spokes for a disc road bike thing I dont agree with. I'm all for more spokes, but it just doesn't seem to be a issue.


FWIW, I reached out to "November Dave" earlier in the process and he had suggested 24/28 for me (185lbs). In the end I went the conservative route (and LBS route too.... sorry Dave ) and stuck with the same spoke count I have now (guess I said that above already). 

I will, most likely, pick up an additional set of wheels at a later date and try lower spoke counts on those (and use them for local or supported rides). Hopefully I live to tell the tale of how they stack up


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## Tallboy1959 (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm no expert.....but. if you are a big guy (I am). Your spending a good chunk of money on a set of wheels. With hubs you are hoping to be riding for many years. At least in my case. I would tend to be conservative. Because once you make the decision, you kind of stuck, for lack of a better term. I'm looking to have a nice set of wheels built for my new bike. But everybody's priorities are different. I'm leaning towards Chris King if I can afford them on the hubs, if not, will probably go with DT.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tallboy1959 said:


> I'm no expert.....but. if you are a big guy (I am). Your spending a good chunk of money on a set of wheels. With hubs you are hoping to be riding for many years. At least in my case. I would tend to be conservative. Because once you make the decision, you kind of stuck, for lack of a better term.


Exactly. Or to put it another way, what are you going to gain by having 4 or either 8 fewer spokes? 30-60g less weight is not going to make you go noticeably faster.



Tallboy1959 said:


> I'm leaning towards Chris King if I can afford them on the hubs, if not, will probably go with DT.


If I were you, I would take a serious look at White Industries hubs. Unlike Chris King, DT and just about all other boutique hubs, White Industries have a Ti freehub body rather than aluminum. If you are a strong or heavy rider, an aluminum freehub is prone to gouging by the cassette.


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## Tallboy1959 (Jun 19, 2017)

Thank you very much.....that, I didn't know.


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## hebecb (Aug 16, 2016)

Lombard said:


> If I were you, I would take a serious look at White Industries hubs. Unlike Chris King, DT and just about all other boutique hubs, White Industries have a Ti freehub body rather than aluminum. If you are a strong or heavy rider, an aluminum freehub is prone to gouging by the cassette.


This is exactly why I went with WI hubs.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

When the freehub gets gouged, you/mechanic files down the grooves. At some point you replace the freehub. It's very simple. Do use a cassette with a spider freehub mount, not the cheaper cassettes with the cogs just pinned together.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

4slomo said:


> When the freehub gets gouged, you/mechanic files down the grooves. At some point you replace the freehub. It's very simple.


Wouldn't it be even simpler to just not use the hub that causes this problem in the first place?


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