# Cheap Chinese Titanium vs. Custom or Name Brand Titanium



## Dajianshan

I got into a discussion about Titanium frames today as a friend wants to spend $1800 on a Chinese manufactured Titanium frame sold by an obscure branding company that slapped a sticker and components on the frame. 

Is it worth buying ti if you buy down market ti? How do cheaper titanium framesets differ from the more upscale Moots, Seven, Litespeed, (insert custom shop here)... etc... 

Aside from the pretty welds are the 'spensive brands a much better ride?

Any experience with the cheap Chinese ti frames?


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## Marc

Dajianshan said:


> I got into a discussion about Titanium frames today as a friend wants to spend $1800 on a Chinese manufactured Titanium frame sold by an obscure branding company that slapped a sticker and components on the frame.
> 
> Is it worth buying ti if you buy down market ti? How do cheaper titanium framesets differ from the more upscale Moots, Seven, Litespeed, (insert custom shop here)... etc...
> 
> Aside from the pretty welds are the 'spensive brands a much better ride?
> 
> Any experience with the cheap Chinese ti frames?


Places like XACD for example (Ti frame place in China), will make a frame exactly how you want it-tubestock dimensions, angles etc. Full custom frame for ~$800, last I knew...but _you have to know exactly what you want_, have to proof read a blueprint with more ink on 1 page than a full NYTimes Sunday paper and things are VERY easily missed by accounts. There is a happy owner on RBR who posted a thread about this, as well as a copy of his blueprint. He was only unhappy because he missed the number of water bottle bosses (IIRC).

Moots and Seven both come in stock and custom sizes. Seven's system is a big 'ol questionnaire filled out with the help of your LBS, a telephone interview to workout details and confirm things-a proofread session with the LBS and then wait until down. Custom Sevens start at $2500 or so and up.

I was thinking of XACD, Moots, and Seven for my Ti bike. Both Moots and Seven have LBS around here. Came down to the LBS I liked more, and that Moots/Seven are known quantities with names, and reputations, and warranties. It's a large amount of money-so why take a risk?

And simply put, the odds are quite high that you buy a custom bike frame from them (Moots, Seven, Habanero, etc.) that you'll be happy with it, if you're not satisfied there's also recourse to make you happy....XACD (for example) not so much. You get what you get.


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## PeanutButterBreath

I have worked on literally hundreds of cheap Chinese-made Ti bikes. Never saw a problem with workmanship over the couple of years I was dealing with them.

The welds, incidentally, never looked perceptibly inferior to any of the "lookit these awesome custom welds" pictorials that get posted. Maybe I just don't have an eye for that kind of detail (never seen a FG chainline picture that did anything for me either).

That said, $1800 is way, way more than I would ever pay. ut:


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## Laifer69

PeanutButterBreath is right. 1,800 US dollars sounds like a lot to pay for a Chinese-made titanium frame.

Half that amount would probably get you a decent frame from Habanero. Why pay more? Spend the difference on other go-faster gear instead. 

Actually, you can choose to pay more if you want to support builders like Moots and Seven. The fact of the matter is that not all of us can afford to do so.

(I do have a chinese-made titanium frame from another company. Absolutely nothing wrong with the welds or anything else for that matter.) 


Laifer 

from


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## Dajianshan

I guess what is unclear is the type of titanium tubing and strength of the welds. I have heard of people modeling titanium frame designs on other, non-titanium bikes. But it would seem to me that certain geometries and shapes can play to a material's strength and shouldn't be applied across the board.


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## danl1

Dajianshan said:


> I guess what is unclear is the type of titanium tubing and strength of the welds. I have heard of people modeling titanium frame designs on other, non-titanium bikes. But it would seem to me that certain geometries and shapes can play to a material's strength and shouldn't be applied across the board.


That's certainly true enough - steel tubing dimensions would be silly on a Ti bike, as would aluminum's for the opposite reason. But wrt to 'geometry', meaning the overall shape of the bike and tube positioning, that's based on usefulness and is independant of material. 

I'd have some concern about metallurgy and quality of weld: The differences between good and lousy are invisible to the naked eye, so you are relying somewhat on reputation to make sure you are getting good alloys, that the welding was done in an appropriately inert atmosphere, etc. Being twice removed from a 'generic' manufacturer wouldn't fill me with confidence there.

For a US buyer, $1800 would be a silly price to pay for a frame, as you can get Lynskey or Litespeed's base framesets for a less than that at MSRP. If the Chinese bike is alleged to have an aggressive schedule of alloys, butting, and tube shaping there might be some reason to re-consider the value proposition, but still there's the question of reputation and trust to consider. 

Please note that I'm not making a nationalistic argument, but only the rather unknown reputation of the original builder.


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## Dajianshan

That was pretty much my feeling on the matter.


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## barry1021

I never have looked at Chinese production techniques but after looking at some of the web sites of the custom makers like Zanconato and Strong (and having a custom steel Strong), I just find it difficult to believe that the Chinese can match the precision and quality of the custom guys. I am also convinced that the minute differences in precision translate into better ride qualities, but JMO, YMMV.


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## dekindy

Here is a made in USA alternative and competitely priced.

http://www.pridecyclesusa.com/index.html


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## teoteoteo

danl1 said:


> I'd have some concern about metallurgy and quality of weld: The differences between good and lousy are invisible to the naked eye, so you are relying somewhat on reputation to make sure you are getting good alloys, that the welding was done in an appropriately inert atmosphere, etc. Being twice removed from a 'generic' manufacturer wouldn't fill me with confidence there.
> 
> For a US buyer, $1800 would be a silly price to pay for a frame, as you can get Lynskey or Litespeed's base framesets for a less than that at MSRP. If the Chinese bike is alleged to have an aggressive schedule of alloys, butting, and tube shaping there might be some reason to re-consider the value proposition, but still there's the question of reputation and trust to consider.
> 
> Please note that I'm not making a nationalistic argument, but only the rather unknown reputation of the original builder.


I'm glad you brought up the weld thing. Pretty welds don't mean precise miters. Also, what is the quality of the tubeset ? Having some experience in being a rep for a ti bike company the welders always mentioned inconsistent quality when it came to foreign sourced TI. They didn't want to use it...


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## veloduffer

For $1800 you can get a used Moots or Seven from here or ebay. I just bought a Lynskey Cooper CX for $1595 complete with Alpha CX10 fork (carbon fork but alloy steerer). It's a straight guage ti frameset with eyelets for racks & fenders. Lynskey is the founder of Litespeed.

I also got a complete Serotta Concours CX (double butted titanium cyclocross) for $2300 from the Serotta forum. 

The big difference will be customer service, if you encounter a problem. Plus, you'll be getting a bike with a reputable build quality. 

I'm glad that carbon fiber is the material du jour. Ti frames are relatively cheap and they'll last a lifetime.


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## Smoothy

Ti is tricky to work with, so you want to know a bit about who built your bike and their experience/expertise. For example, the dropout compliance with spec is important because if they get it wrong, you can have a wheel that's not centred in the stay or your wheel bearing can wear prematurely (ie bad vertical compliance for the dropouts once you tighten qr). 

So the frame may not fail, as in break, but there's lots of little things that can be annoying if you get a sub-std builder. 

Also, you need to clean & purge the tube to prevent oxygen presence during welding. Lots of cheaper ti frames will show the tell-tale signs of oxygen contamination on the inside of their tubes when you cut them open. An improper ti-weld can mean dimished strength and a bike that ultimately fails. Most won't notice this from the outside until the bike fails. 

Perhaps the biggest gain is getting the ti frame that fits your body. There lots of small builders that can give you a custom ti-frame (I own one) for same or less than the price of a stock-size frame from the big names. The small guys won't have the fancier tubesets like lynskey, but you can still get the bike that fits and rides the way you want it.


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## SystemShock

dekindy said:


> Here is a made in USA alternative and competitely priced.
> 
> http://www.pridecyclesusa.com/index.html


Nice prices, but they don't seem to list any frame weights?(I just glanced thru quickly).

They should call themselves 'Tennessee Titanium'. That's memorable. 
.


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## gamara

I read with interest this racial bias when it comes to frame materials amongst these forums. When it comes to all these ebay carbon frames that keep popping up here all the time, the consensus from the forums is that they're great, they're the same factories that supply all the major brands so the quality must be good, then there's the multitude of praises from the owners of these frames, blah, blah, blah......

When it comes to asian Ti frames its the other way around. We have the gamut from bad Ti alloys, questionable welds, questionable quality, low tech???, blah, blah, blah....... Why is this?? I'm just curious as to why this division in opinions between materials from the same source? 

Titanium will never be cheap relatively speaking because it costs so much more to refine it. When alumiunum was the material of choice, people had no problems with the welds or quality as such. Back in the 90's, Specialized, Trek, Bianchi etc. sold a lot of aluminum bikes which many here have ridden with no problem. So then these asian made aluminum frames made way for todays carbon frames and people here seem to have no problems with them either.

What I will say is that its apples to oranges when one is making the comparison of a custom made Ti bike with a mass produced one. Of course the difference in the quality to details is going to be huge. But if you know what you are looking for & are on a tight budget, I don't see why there should be such negative opinions. 

In most cases when a person buys a custom frame, unless he knows someone that has the exact frame, there is no way of really trying it out. We buy on faith. Simple as that. Its the bike you saw in the magazine & always wanted. So you go out & order it. On faith. Sometimes you ask some guys for their opinion. Unless I hear some story of complete catastrophic failure, no one really knows until you take it out for yourself & ride it. Asking some guys about their opinion about a bike in question when they don't even own that particular brand is just foolish. Just my 2 cents.


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## lemond2001

There is a difference in the quality of Ti made in the US and the stuff from China...you get what you pay for....The US stuff costs about 150 to 200 more a frame from a builders stand point to use US ti over China stuff. Is the stuff from China junk...no its ok..but the stuff made in the US is better for the long run it will have less problems. If its a small builder in the US he is going to build you a really quality frame and use the best materials..because he has to warranty the frame and doesnt want to see it again to fix...Why is Ti so great? You can just cut and cut and weld time and time again on it..For Example: you can cut off a 1 inch head tube and weld back in a 1 1/8 head tube and you have a new undated frame... what a stiffer frame..cut out the down tube and put in a bigger pipe.

What you have to watch for with a Ti is who is welding it together and how tight the tolerances are on the tubes butting. Soom loose fit it and weld. Not the best wat to do it in my option. Also, where most cracks acure is when someone contaminates the air when welding it being done..

Should you buy a Ti frame from China at $1800.00...you can but why would you at that price you can get someone in the US to build a better frame that fits your weight with better materials for the same price or less...


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## PeanutButterBreath

gamara said:


> I read with interest this racial bias when it comes to frame materials amongst these forums.


I agree somewhat, though I think it has to do more with cheap labor and low QC than race.



gamara said:


> When it comes to all these ebay carbon frames that keep popping up here all the time, the consensus from the forums is that they're great, they're the same factories that supply all the major brands so the quality must be good, then there's the multitude of praises from the owners of these frames, blah, blah, blah......
> 
> When it comes to asian Ti frames its the other way around. We have the gamut from bad Ti alloys, questionable welds, questionable quality, low tech???, blah, blah, blah....... Why is this?? I'm just curious as to why this division in opinions between materials from the same source?


Well, it is true that some of the highest quality CF and aluminum frames are coming out of Taiwann. That said, a) China is not Taiwan and b) none of the high quality "name brand" Ti frames are coming out of Taiwan or China (AFAIK).



gamara said:


> Titanium will never be cheap relatively speaking because it costs so much more to refine it. When alumiunum was the material of choice, people had no problems with the welds or quality as such. Back in the 90's, Specialized, Trek, Bianchi etc. sold a lot of aluminum bikes which many here have ridden with no problem. So then these asian made aluminum frames made way for todays carbon frames and people here seem to have no problems with them either.


Here I agree. There are different considerations when welding Ti, but it is not rocket science. Any material can be of low initial quality, adulterated or poorly manufactured into a frame. No material is beyond the capabilities of Taiwan or China's manufacturing sectors. If you wouldn't think twice about riding a Chinese steel, Al or CF frame, there is no reason to exclude Ti based on the peculiarities of Ti manufacturing.

Its also worth considering Ti's current place in the market. I'd say that Ti frames are disproportionately high-end and custom, which adds to the sense that Ti frame building is a rare skill that may be inherently unsuitable for mass production by anonymous, low-paid factory workers.


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## Mark Kelly

SystemShock said:


> Nice prices, but they don't seem to list any frame weights?(I just glanced thru quickly).
> 
> They should call themselves 'Tennessee Titanium'. That's memorable.
> .


Pretty hard to list frame weights for custom jobs.

My large, stiff frame (590mm x 580mm with long chain stays and large diameter tubes (38mm DT, 35mm ST)) came in at 1500g.

A more standard 55 cm frame would probably come in under 1400 g.

These are straight gauge frames so they'll be a couple of hundred grams heavier than an equivalent frame from butted tubing.


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## Dajianshan

> China is not Taiwan


Thanks PBB!!! You made my day. I love when people get that right.


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## waterobert

I work with metals all day long. I don't know much about manufacturing of bike frames, however I do manufacture some components for jet fighters. Ti alloys are about 10-20 times harder to cut than most steel alloys. It does take a skilled employee to do it right and efficiently. When I have to manufacture something from Ti, I need from my boss the best metal cutting tools and it takes time.
Can Chinese do it? probably yes. For last few decades we've been exporting manufacturing technologies all over the world.


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## kubuqi

As a Chinese & owner of Chinese Ti frame, I have to say I've been happy with my bike for last 4 years. What I missed sometimes is the stiffness around the BB, but given the comfort level I'd accept that.

There's two companies sold Ti frame in China, and both have good background AFAIK. 

The XACD actually backed by the big ti-alloy industry in mid-china....they smelt ti and made all the tubes... bike frame is just tiny part of it. The drawback is that I suspect they know little about cycling, hence they rely on customers to determine what they want it to be.

The other manufacturer called Hi-Light. These guys were actually does rocket science ;-) They were people weld the Chinese rockets so they know how do the welding. 

Ti is something rare as you can see these two manufacturer have their source. 

Overall Chinese ti-frame builders knows little about cycling, knows a lot about the material, and how do do the welding. They were simply ti-workers to make some extra money by making some bicycle frames.


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## Dajianshan

That IS a good point. China has done a remarkable job acquiring US technology for producing advanced weapons and jet fighters. No reason to think they haven't sent that technology to the bike sector.


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## PeanutButterBreath

kubuqi said:


> The other manufacturer called Hi-Light. These guys were actually does rocket science ;-) They were people weld the Chinese rockets so they know how do the welding.


Good grief. Well, its not brain surgery. . . 

But, there you go. I think the issue of technical prowess is settled.

However, you raise an interesting point about design. All of the Chinese Ti frames I am familiar with were built to the specifications of Americans or Europeans. Not that a Chinese designer <i>couldn't</i> do it as well or better, of course. I suppose that ride quality is really a matter of who placed the order, and how picky they were able to be about the compliance of the final product.


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## PeanutButterBreath

Well, for my part, its a rare treat to get something right. :thumbsup:


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## Dajianshan

From my experience with Chinese manufacturers, Chinese products and people doing business with Chinese manufacturers, the Chinese companied have problems with QC due to a different industrial culture (Soviet model where Taiwan is rooted in the Japanese model). That culture is changing, but it has been difficult to instill in the workers a sense of responsibility in the final product. Furthermore, Chinese managers are under pressure to get the job done while reducing costs. This leads to cut corners and falsified processes. There are lots of murky deals between companies and there have been several cases of inferior materials being substituted for the original specs. Since the government officials ore on the take, it is difficult to enforce regulations. Still... it is hard to condemn an entire industry. I guess it just leaves question marks.


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## cyclust

veloduffer said:


> For $1800 you can get a used Moots or Seven from here or ebay. I just bought a Lynskey Cooper CX for $1595 complete with Alpha CX10 fork (carbon fork but alloy steerer). It's a straight guage ti frameset with eyelets for racks & fenders. Lynskey is the founder of Litespeed.
> 
> I also got a complete Serotta Concours CX (double butted titanium cyclocross) for $2300 from the Serotta forum.
> 
> The big difference will be customer service, if you encounter a problem. Plus, you'll be getting a bike with a reputable build quality.
> 
> I'm glad that carbon fiber is the material du jour. Ti frames are relatively cheap and they'll last a lifetime.


Absolutely!!! A high quality ti frame from any of the major palyers such as Serotta, seven, litespeed. etc is a bike that will last for many many years. And used ones are a bargain, as most folks these days want carbon. So why not get a bike with a bit of experience for less than what you would pay for a bike with questionable quality? Not to mention, if you buy a used american ti bike, the original owner has already taken the big depreciation hit. Buy a chinese frame for $1800 and what do you think it will be worth in 2 years? Probably $300-$400. BTW, I happen to have a 56cm Serotta Legend ti in perfect condition that I'm considering selling, feel free to PM me if interested.


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## Lectron

kubuqi said:


> A
> 
> The other manufacturer called Hi-Light. These guys were actually does rocket science ;-) They were people weld the Chinese rockets so they know how do the welding.
> 
> Ti is something rare as you can see these two manufacturer have their source.
> 
> Overall Chinese ti-frame builders knows little about cycling, knows a lot about the material, and how do do the welding. They were simply ti-workers to make some extra money by making some bicycle frames.


I have two Hi-Light frames branded by Airborne. They both have been excellent for many years now. 

Tubes looks to have been cut very precise, and all those 'welding porn' pics posted doesn't of different high end frames look any better


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## acckids

I just ordered a Lynskey Cooper directly from Lynskey. Lifetime warranty. People actually pick up the phone and answer emails. USA made. I have researched and found no complaints with them. Crazy easy to buy one from them. The price I paid was competitive with any China frames plus I'm supporting some gal/guy like me in the USA.


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## Lectron

I also have a "high end painted" Lynskey frame...
Price is NOT competitive, it is more advanced and IMO a better ride thou.


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## Schneiderguy

when the pet food kills the pets and the milk kills the kids I have concerns. I researched Chinese made scooters. They range from being assembled on dirt floors to motors made for Honda and Yamaha. Under the right circumstances there is no reason you couldn't get a good Ti bike at a good price. But with good deals on new American made bikes such as the Lynskey Cooper, the Planet X that Lynskey makes and the lower priced Litespeeds as well as some small builders, why bother. Great deals on complete used bikes on Ebay. Last month I bought a new Lynskey Helix for $2,000. I had a question about a fork and called the owner Don at 7:00 AM as the web paged showed in was in and available. Glad I wasn't trying to communicate with someone in China.


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## terbennett

lemond2001 said:


> There is a difference in the quality of Ti made in the US and the stuff from China...you get what you pay for....The US stuff costs about 150 to 200 more a frame from a builders stand point to use US ti over China stuff. Is the stuff from China junk...no its ok..but the stuff made in the US is better for the long run it will have less problems. If its a small builder in the US he is going to build you a really quality frame and use the best materials..because he has to warranty the frame and doesnt want to see it again to fix...Why is Ti so great? You can just cut and cut and weld time and time again on it..For Example: you can cut off a 1 inch head tube and weld back in a 1 1/8 head tube and you have a new undated frame... what a stiffer frame..cut out the down tube and put in a bigger pipe.
> 
> What you have to watch for with a Ti is who is welding it together and how tight the tolerances are on the tubes butting. Soom loose fit it and weld. Not the best wat to do it in my option. Also, where most cracks acure is when someone contaminates the air when welding it being done..
> 
> Should you buy a Ti frame from China at $1800.00...you can but why would you at that price you can get someone in the US to build a better frame that fits your weight with better materials for the same price or less...


I'm not a ti frame owner but hope to purchase my first within the next five years. It's hard for me to believe that a Chinese or Taiwanese Ti frame is any less reliable than a US built one. Being that around 90% of high quality bikes sold in the US are made in Taiwan or China, it's hard to believe that paying more for a US brand will mean I'm getting a higher quality bike. Ti is Ti. If you use the same Ti and the bike is custom built to the same specs, I bet that you will get the same quality no matter where you purchase. Sure the very best are made in Taiwan but many companies make their high quality entry level and mid level bikes in China. When it comes to carbon, a lot of the higher end models are made in China too. I can't say wheteher or not you are or aren't getting a better bike here in the States, but I do know that a lot of what you're paying is the ridiculous labor costs associated with buying one made here. Those workers aren't making low wages. To us they are, but compared to the cost of living in China, they are paid exceptionally well. I wonder how many workers in the US can save 40% of their weekly income and still survive. This was a topic brought up before in another discussion. BTW, I'm planning to buy either a Serotta- not because of where it's made but because I've had good experiences with my steel Serottas when I used to race in my younger years. I'm confident that they make good frames is my reason. If inexpensive is what you want, you shopuld also consider a Scattante Titanium frame from Performance bikes. I believe that they are made by Lynskey but don't quote me on that.


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## kiwisimon

timroz said:


> So I bought a Strong frame about 6 years ago. Columbus Foco steel. Sweetest ride EVER. About a month ago I decided to actually clean my bike and noticed a very small crack where the top tube hits the head tube - right in the weld - showing through the powder coat. So I took a pic and sent it to Carl and he calls me up and says "that's a crack - send it to me". So I'm thinking this is going to be hundreds of dollars to fix, another $100 at Spectrum, shipping back etc. Carl calls me after he gets it and says "yep - it's a crack, what color do you want it powder coated after I fix it?" And I'm like "how much?" and he says it's under warranty - free. I said "no way Carl - I've hammered this bike for 6 years" and he is hearing none of it. So basically I paid $32 to ship it to him and that's it. What a great guy, great bike, great company...


http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=3621559&postcount=112

And that is the biggest difference. Communication and trust. How much are they worth? Try having a relationship without both!


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## barry1021

" It's hard for me to believe that a Chinese or Taiwanese Ti frame is any less reliable than a US built one. Being that around 90% of high quality bikes sold in the US are made in Taiwan or China, it's hard to believe that paying more for a US brand will mean I'm getting a higher quality bike."
90% of high end ti or steel bikes are NOT made in china or Taiwan, so it seems like your logic is based on a false premise. Seems to me that building a CF bike and a Ti bike have little in common process wise, except you end up with a bike. 

"Ti is Ti. If you use the same Ti and the bike is custom built to the same specs, I bet that you will get the same quality no matter where you purchase."

Well this has been discussed ad nauseum but specs for a bike and BUILDING the bike to spec are two things, I would think. Again when you see the precision that the Masters employ to cut, miter, fit, weld over and over again, its hard for me to accept that all bikes built from the same material to the "same specs" will have the same quality. Perhaps the difference is not great enough to justify purchase for some people, but surely not the same. 

"but I do know that a lot of what you're paying is the ridiculous labor costs associated with buying one made here."

Yeah, being in the investment business, I keep asking Carl Strong when he is going to give me some of his millions that he stashes away every year from his business. He keeps denying it. Go figure.

B21


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## PeanutButterBreath

barry1021 said:


> Again when you see the precision that the Masters employ to cut, miter, fit, weld over and over again, its hard for me to accept that all bikes built from the same material to the "same specs" will have the same quality.


To me, all of this falls under "not <strike>rocket science</strike> brain surgery". The mundane technical aspects of frame building are exactly where a factory will be able to compete just fine. There are aspects of custom, by-hand frame building that are only impressive because they are done <i>by hand</i> to a standard indistinguishable from what a factory drone can accomplish in a few minutes with a multi-thousand dollar CNC machine. Where would be be as a civilization if some guy with a half-round and a lot of time on his hands represented the pinnacle of human manufacturing prowess?

What you get from a "Master" is what you do not get from commodity -- personalization and optimization. A frame built to specifications tailored to you based on a master's knowledge of how specific factors can be tuned to an individual implementation. You may also get levels of intricacy that are not practical on an industrial scale (e.g. cosmetic flourishes at the joints).


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## Dereck

When you consider that the Chinese copied a Mig single seat jet fighter much more than a couple of years ago, a bike frame that more or less stays together should be trivial to them.

My other way of disposing of surplus income is model aircraft. The Chinese 'revolutionised' my long time hobby lately, by selling about everything they've copied at sometimes ludicrous prices. Not hard, when all you do is copy something bought from Europe rather than waste money designing and developing it, then build it with cheap labour, no QC and little else beyond the knowledge that the US is a land full of 'consumers' desperate to buy.

Still, that's life...

On a nicer note - those 'Pride' frames? Interesting, look good on website, but a tad too far to drive for a check-out. I have a couple of specific geometry needs that I know enough about to figure how to order and the prices look good too. Heck, they'll even apply decals backed up my old country's Union Jack flag too.

Anyone round here got one/seen one/have any thoughts?

Regards

Dereck


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## Mark Kelly

Dereck said:


> On a nicer note - those 'Pride' frames? Interesting, look good on website, but a tad too far to drive for a check-out. I have a couple of specific geometry needs that I know enough about to figure how to order and the prices look good too. Heck, they'll even apply decals backed up my old country's Union Jack flag too.
> 
> Anyone round here got one/seen one/have any thoughts?


That's my frame at the bottom of the road page of their website. It's a wonderful ride.

Talk to David about what you want, I don't think you'll be dissappointed. I believe David was the production foreman at ABG (Merlin, Litespeed) for 25 years.


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## ntb1001

.....


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## Dereck

Mark Kelly said:


> That's my frame at the bottom of the road page of their website. It's a wonderful ride.
> 
> Talk to David about what you want, I don't think you'll be dissappointed. I believe David was the production foreman at ABG (Merlin, Litespeed) for 25 years.


Thank you - good info. They are good looking frames. Those cross-over seat stays remind me of the GT mountain bike I bought in England back around 1991. Found a bike shop with some funny bikes with great fat knobbly tyres, straight bars and lots of tiny gears, couldn't resist. Wish I'd kept it too..

Will be keeping an eye on 'Pride'. Right now, in process of moving house a long way, so extra bikes would meet with stern spousal stares...

Regards

Dereck


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## locominute

to Mark Kelly--what size tubings were used on your frame?


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## Mark Kelly

locominute said:


> to Mark Kelly--what size tubings were used on your frame?


Frame is 590 x 580 (C to C, Pride size their frames C to T so this is a 60 cm frame by their sizing), chainstays 415mm, 73 degree angles, horizontal top tube. Seat tube and head tube come 25mm (1 inch) above the top tube "Pegoretti Style"

All dimensions diameter x wall thickness, diameters checked with Mitutoyo digital calipers, thicknesses checked with Nova 800 series high precision ultrasonic gauge.

Down tube 38.1 x 0.9 

Seat tube 34.9 x 0.8 (that surprised me when I measured it)

Top tube 31.75 x 0.9 (flattened "portage" style)

Chain stays 22.2 x 0.9

Seat stays 15.9 x 0.9

Head tube 38.1 x 2.1.

Frame weight 1500 g with seat tube insert & collar


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## pmf

Just make sure you know what you're getting. I know the Habanero bikes that were built in China and sold in the U.S. some years ago were partially constructed of commercially pure (CP) titanium and not a titanium alloy. CP titanium is much more brittle and less desirable than an alloy. Its also cheaper and easier to work with, hence the appeal. At any rate, whoever said "ti is ti" isn't exactly right. 

As far as the workmanship goes, I can't see any reason why a guy in China can't weld as well as a guy in the U.S. 

If it were me, I'd buy a used bike or hold out for one on sale (U.S. made). I'm so sick of crappy Chinese products that I just try to avoid buying anything made in that country. Lead paint on kid's toys, tainted baby formula, toxic food products, counterfeit toothpaste, ineffective medicines ... it never seems to end. The place is just one big unregulated sweatshop run by people who would do anything to make another buck.


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## Dajianshan

I hear you on that. I was at my in-laws today and my wife's aunt works for a factory that manufactures bags for the Manhattan Co. in central Taiwan. Her factory expanded to China two years ago to take advantage of the cheaper labor. They pulled out 6 months ago because the quality was so awful they could not sell the bags in the US market and had to dump them in Vietnamese street markets to recoup a fraction of their losses. 

I am advising my friend to avoid these frames, but the lure of a "deal" is hard to resist.


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## pmf

Exactly what "deal" is he getting?

I recall the guy from Bikes Direct who posts here once said he would not source titanium bikes from China. He seemed to have no problem with steel, carbon or aluminum though. 

I bet your buddy can get an equally good deal on a used Litespeed, Merlin, etc. here.


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## Dajianshan

We are in Taiwan. He's got $3000 to spend on a new bike. Velocite is calling. They claim it is constructed by Wheeler (I have my doubts). I am just highly suspicious of a company that can come up out of nowhere and offer several frames and components that are cheap and worth a damn... enough to carry my confidence. My friend wants a steel or titanium bike to last a long time with Record or Ultegra. There... I said it! I am working hard on this thing.


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## Dereck

It's amazing what can be copied. Then if quality control - if such a thing exists - dumps all failures where the factory owner's brother can sell them off cheap on the side?

For something I'm as fussy about as a bike frame, a minimum would be calling the builder, preferably visiting in person, and having as many references and recomendations as possible. My present rides are a Waterford built Gunnar - what more can be said? - and a luged 953 Bob Jackson, built some 50 miles from where I grew up and pretty much where they've been since they built my last BJ - in 1970! I suspect both of them will last me as long as I can ride a bike now  

After experiences like those, I doubt I'd buy anything 'mail order' from somewhere well overseas that would probably feign 'no speak English' even if I could call them.

Regards

Dereck


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## estone2

Tell him to look around a bit. When I got my LS Ultimate, it retailed for $2100, I got it one year old NOS for $1200.

$1800 for Chinese titanium is a bad joke, $1800 can get you a name brand Ti bike.


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## rook

You can get a US made Lyskey titamium frame for basically $1000, so why would you want to do a heavier frame made anywhere else for the same price or higher?

And yes, I realize that the XACD frame is $800. But whoopty-freaking doo. You get a frame that is heavier than most steel frames and certainly heavier than the Lyskey frames. And you save a whopping $200. Umm, it's a no brainer for me. I don't know where these XACD guys get off, but you got to be kidding me. I mean, it's not like the frame is $600 cheaper than a lighter Lynskey Cooper.

Oh BTW, I'm all for buying USA. However, I would recommend the Lynskey Cooper because I think it is a better value than anything out there. If not, I would recommend a Ti frame from China. And I hate idiots that turn bike threads into their own political rants and anti-Chinese hate.


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## BryanSayer

My reading of the OP is that $1800 is for the whole bike, not the frame.

Not that I disagree with the other ideas. In particular, just because a country/company/person CAN do something, it doesn't mean that they DO every time.


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## Dajianshan

Whole bike is $2999.


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## Dajianshan

rook,

Here is a case where there is a legitimate discussion of Chinese quality in a titanium frame and the other mitigating of political factors that may lead to its selection. In some cases it may be appropriate to discuss politics in the purchase of a product as economics and politics are often intertwined. In a case like China, where the state plays such a central role 
in the economy, the ethics of the purchase can easily come into play. I think this is a more common phenomenon that you might think. Do we choose to buy from a mega-store or on-line when the LBS might be a little more, but it supports the community? The same can be said about supporting China and Chinese goods. Can the quality of goods from an opaque and often corrupt system be worth the risk and what is the ultimate price we are paying? 

*1.* The main criticism in this thread leveraged against China does not attack the people of that country per se, but rather the unknowns of dealing with the Chinese industrial establishment and how much confidence we can have in those products. It focuses on the quality of Chinese titanium fabrication. That line of doubt is only political in that it arises from a general discomfort in a system that is opaque and tainted with a history of deceitful practices that have led to harm the consumer. The lack of oversight and transparency in the political-economy of China, where government, industry, power and politics is greatly intertwined with competing interests in a quest to expand centralized power is as far as the argument has gone thus far in looking at titanium frame fabrication, and I don't see any overriding political message that is simply "anti-Chinese" to hate Chinese.

This thread has simply asked:

*a)* Can we trust Chinese frame fabrication that results from such an environment? 

*b)* If large bicycle companies are relying on Chinese fabrication, what is the difference if a small company buys generic Chinese frames and sells them at a discounted price? Are they the same quality or could there be a danger that they are of inferior quality?

*c)* What could the differences in quality be between a craft titanium frame and a Chinese built frame? Is it simply a case of, as my mother used to say, "A car is a car and some are just more expensive than others", ?


*2.* It could get more political from my standpoint. Personally, if I have the choice, I would not support purchasing anything from a country that routinely threatens me and my family with annihilation if we do not bow to their own political vision of Chinese nationalism. I am in Taiwan and we feel a direct threat to our culture and way of life. Why should I or anyone else help a country gain more power and leverage that it can and will use against me, mine and others with less power? But that isn't the argument that is being made in this thread and I don't expect people from other countries to really care about matters that happen "elsewhere". 

*3.* I guess if I were to sit back and look at the meta-argument of this thread or a thread like this I could say, as a friend recently put it, "We reject the myth that economic change will lead to CPC liberalization or democratization. This is a false theory. In fact economic growth has strengthened the privileges (特權) of the CPC elite China lacks the basic conditions of a true free market – which is a system of law that treats all equally. In China there is a system of law protecting privilege. There continues to be a growing disparity of power between the elite and the majority of the country, especially increased exploitation of China’s 300 million peasants. There is destructive, non sustainable development." (...that leads to an unreliable or unpredictable production environment I might add). Is this what a consumer really wants to support? The consumer might not care or calculate this factor is the search for a "deal", but we often make political decisions with out pocketbooks. These choices become a form of individual activism. So I guess in an indirect way we might be discussing "What is THE DEAL on a Chinese titanium frame?", but that wasn't what most of us were really discussing above.:thumbsup: 

Food for thought.

Now I would really like to do is to help my buddy out and make sure he gets something good that will last several years and be a pleasure to ride. He's got $3000.


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## bigbill

Dajianshan said:


> *2.* It could get more political from my standpoint. Personally, if I have the choice, I would not support purchasing anything from a country that routinely threatens me and my family with annihilation if we do not bow to their own political vision of Chinese nationalism. I am in Taiwan and we feel a direct threat to our culture and way of life. Why should I or anyone else help a country gain more power and leverage that it can and will use against me, mine and others with less power? But that isn't the argument that is being made in this thread and I don't expect people from other countries to really care about matters that happen "elsewhere".
> 
> *3.* I guess if I were to sit back and look at the meta-argument of this thread or a thread like this I could say, as a friend recently put it, "We reject the myth that economic change will lead to CPC liberalization or democratization. This is a false theory. In fact economic growth has strengthened the privileges (特權) of the CPC elite China lacks the basic conditions of a true free market – which is a system of law that treats all equally. In China there is a system of law protecting privilege. There continues to be a growing disparity of power between the elite and the majority of the country, especially increased exploitation of China’s 300 million peasants. There is destructive, non sustainable development." (...that leads to an unreliable or unpredictable production environment I might add). Is this what a consumer really wants to support? The consumer might not care or calculate this factor is the search for a "deal", but we often make political decisions with out pocketbooks. These choices become a form of individual activism. So I guess in an indirect way we might be discussing "What is THE DEAL on a Chinese titanium frame?", but that wasn't what most of us were really discussing above.:thumbsup:
> 
> Food for thought.
> 
> Now I would really like to do is to help my buddy out and make sure he gets something good that will last several years and be a pleasure to ride. He's got $3000.


This thread is interesting to me since I am reading it in Hong Kong. This port visit has been scheduled for quite a while and we were somewhat unsure if it would really happen after the arms sales to Taiwan even though they were negotiated years ago and were no suprise. Now we sit and nervously watch the reaction of the Dalai Lama visit. The world is really shrinking. I hope this stays out of PO.


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## Dajianshan

Political theater. China's "anger" is a managed choice. Though, I think, here, we should stick with influence on production and quality.


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## pmf

Dajianshan said:


> Political theater. China's "anger" is a managed choice. Though, I think, here, we should stick with influence on production and quality.


OK, aside from the fact that you live on a little island that the Chinese occassionaly lob missile in your general direction, threaten to invade you and fail to recongnize your existence, your buddy has $3k to spend on a bike and should be able to get something pretty decent for that. 

Taiwan is known as world class manufacturer of bicycles. Isn't the Giant bicycle factory located in Taiwan? I read that the best carbon frames are made in Taiwan. So why is your buddy so deadset on a titanium bike in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I have a 1999 Litespeed Ultimate that I still ride (mostly commuting if the f-ing snow ever melts). I've also ridden carbon bikes starting in the early 1990's with a Kestrel and currently a Colnago. Titanium is nice stuff, but its expensive for what it is. It became a popular alternative to steel because it is lighter and has a similar ride to steel -- something aluminium can't match. But then carbon bikes came along. They're increasingly better and cheaper. Why not get a carbon frame made locally? Its in your own backyard, no?


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## Dajianshan

He's a big heavy clyde who wants this bike for 10 to 15 years. We often have to throw bikes on trains and travel cases to get around, so the fear of scratching up or damaging a carbon frame is perceived to be greater. There are tons of cheap carbon and aluminum frames here. Trigon is in out backyard. He wants steel or ti.


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## estone2

pmf said:


> OK, aside from the fact that you live on a little island that the Chinese occassionaly lob missile in your general direction, threaten to invade you and fail to recongnize your existence, your buddy has $3k to spend on a bike and should be able to get something pretty decent for that.
> 
> Taiwan is known as world class manufacturer of bicycles. Isn't the Giant bicycle factory located in Taiwan? I read that the best carbon frames are made in Taiwan. So why is your buddy so deadset on a titanium bike in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I have a 1999 Litespeed Ultimate that I still ride (mostly commuting if the f-ing snow ever melts). I've also ridden carbon bikes starting in the early 1990's with a Kestrel and currently a Colnago. Titanium is nice stuff, but its expensive for what it is. It became a popular alternative to steel because it is lighter and has a similar ride to steel -- something aluminium can't match. But then carbon bikes came along. They're increasingly better and cheaper. Why not get a carbon frame made locally? Its in your own backyard, no?


+1. Taiwanese carbon fiber is some of the best. If you gave me a bike and told me it was made in China, I'd take a closer look before I got on. A Taiwanese bike? I'd ride it immediately.


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## pmf

Dajianshan said:


> He's a big heavy clyde who wants this bike for 10 to 15 years. We often have to throw bikes on trains and travel cases to get around, so the fear of scratching up or damaging a carbon frame is perceived to be greater. There are tons of cheap carbon and aluminum frames here. Trigon is in out backyard. He wants steel or ti.


Last time I looked, ALL steel bikes are painted (unless they're chrome plated I guess). So really your only choice if you want an unpainted bike is titanium. I can understand that. I've twice traveled with a bike on a plane and both times, I took the titanium bike for that reason. I recall watching some French bafoons drop my bike case 6 feet off the cargo hold of the plane onto the tarmac at Charles DeGaulle airport. It came through fine. 

Frankly, having owned several carbon bikes, I think the paint chipping thing is a nonissue. I'd travel with my carbon bike with no worries. The stuff is a lot tougher than people give it credit for, and the ride is first class. Your buddy should try one to see what he thinks. He could get a lot nicer bike if he went carbon.


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## terbennett

I guess I should've clarified the Ti is Ti quote. I was implying the same levels of Ti from a Chinese manufacturer is the same as the same level by a U.S. manufacturer. I don't believe that one can say that U.S. made ti frames are always better than a Chinese made one. Even if it is the case a lot of the times, there are chinese frames that are just as good. Now with the market the way it is and everyone trying to sell by lowering prices, a Litespeed or Lynskey would be a better option for a round the same price.


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## acid_rider

IMO

FWIW Everti is a Canadian brand that makes their Ti frames in Asia. 

I think if Ti makes any sort of *volume* come-back the Asians will make a good business out of it in a few short years - just like with current carbon frames. Think about it - Japanese generally make the most *reliable cars* in the world now (ok, poor Toyota!!!!). So Asians know how to make high quality product even if sometimes their design is not exactly as inspiring as Euro/US design.

Me? I have a custom Ti made in Australia - since this is where I live. 8^)


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## Mark Kelly

Titanium is certainly not titanium, even if the same alloy is used. Forming thin wall tubing that is reliably tough and fatigue resistant is very, very difficult.

The cost difference between cheap titanium tubing and good titanium tubing lies in the care with which it has been stress relieved after each forming process. Try asking your fabricator what the contractile strain ratio of the tubing they use is.


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## vmajor

Dajianshan said:


> We are in Taiwan. He's got $3000 to spend on a new bike. Velocite is calling. They claim it is constructed by Wheeler (I have my doubts). I am just highly suspicious of a company that can come up out of nowhere and offer several frames and components that are cheap and worth a damn... enough to carry my confidence. My friend wants a steel or titanium bike to last a long time with Record or Ultegra. There... I said it! I am working hard on this thing.


I hope that the information in the other thread answered the questions to a sufficient detail as to how Velocite can actually deliver on what we claim:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2636849#post2636849

You are also welcome to contact us or me directly if you have any questions. There are multiple avenues (This one being the most direct: http://velocite-bikes.com/contact-us/contacts/customer-service ) , including a visit in person since you are in Taiwan...I'll show you the shipping boxes that the Millennium frames come in...with the sender's details  

Cheers,

V.

EDIT: for completeness sake while our sales channels are being built, the price of "USD 1800" ($1799 actually...) includes a full carbon monocoque fork and an FSA branded FSA headset, so it is a frameset price, not just the frame.


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## coyotegulch

*Pride Cycles Titanium*

Have any of you heard of these guys www.pridecyclesusa.com? They have great prices on US titanium frames and are offering custom at the price of stock for February. I am considering ordering one, but haven't seen any comments on them.


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## merlinluvr

Dajianshan said:


> I got into a discussion about Titanium frames today as a friend wants to spend $1800 on a Chinese manufactured Titanium frame sold by an obscure branding company that slapped a sticker and components on the frame.
> 
> Is it worth buying ti if you buy down market ti? How do cheaper titanium framesets differ from the more upscale Moots, Seven, Litespeed, (insert custom shop here)... etc...
> 
> Aside from the pretty welds are the 'spensive brands a much better ride?
> 
> Any experience with the cheap Chinese ti frames?


I can't imagine paying that much for a frame that very well could be suspect when the used market will put you on a complete ti bike from well established manufacturers for much less. Personal choice....free to do as your wallet wants so I'm not saying no, but man ti is a huge bargain right now. Yes ti can break, but I have never had an issue with ti since my first one in '91. Only sold them b/c I used to bite down on marketing gimmicks like a lot of us do If ti fits it could very well be the last bike you will ever 'need'. My Agilis has ~ 80K miles between myself and it's previous owner....not one issue other than me drooling on it.

I'm going to look at a 2002 Merlin MTB with XTR for $600 and it's just loaded and looks perfect. Guy is desperate for money. eBay is chock full of killer deals on complete bikes and if you just want a frame you can get one for less than half of the $1,800 Chinese number. 

Ok that is my 2 cents on ti. Obviously I'm a ti lover. Have gone through every material to land back on ti.


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## Retro Grouch

*See posts 9, 13 and 34 above.*



coyotegulch said:


> Have any of you heard of these guys www.pridecyclesusa.com? They have great prices on US titanium frames and are offering custom at the price of stock for February. I am considering ordering one, but haven't seen any comments on them.


They talk about Pride cycles.


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## Dajianshan

So, let me clarify this.

The Carbon frames (and components?) are prototypes from Chinese fabrication houses. 

The Titanium frames are built/welded in ... (China?) and finished in Taiwan? 
"Finishing" means they are... inspected? detailed? ...? 

Velocite custom draws each frame design and engineers at Velocite participate in the design process, so these frames follow a design, fabrication and QC process under the direct supervision of Velocite? 

It would be wonderful if you could clear this up. I think clarity on these issues would help out a lot with your brand, as you can see there is lots of skepticism regarding the often dubious practices of many equipment companies that are heavy on marketing and light on quality. 

I appreciate your attempts to clarify these matters and I do wish you well on your brand. I hope your products can prove the skeptics wrong. 

A quality product is a paramount concern for cyclists who must put their trust in your product for the sake of safety and satisfaction. As an unknown company I am sure it is an up hill battle. Please understand my own and other cyclists tendency to be a little gun shy around an unknown series of products with marketing that offers so much at such discount prices. If it sounds too good to be true... it probably is. I hope this adage proves wrong. 

Best!

DJS


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## vmajor

Dajianshan said:


> So, let me clarify this.
> 
> The Carbon frames (and components?) are prototypes from Chinese fabrication houses.


No. They are not prototypes. They are finished products. EN tested and live tested = ridden by competitive racers to fine tune any issues WHILE the frames are in prototype stage.



> The Titanium frames are built/welded in ... (China?) and finished in Taiwan?
> "Finishing" means they are... inspected? detailed? ...?


Yes, welded in China, hand finished and 100% QC inspected in Taiwan. "Finished" = shot peened, hand brushed/polished, put on alignment checking rack, all welds inspected and decaled.



> Velocite custom draws each frame design and engineers at Velocite participate in the design process, so these frames follow a design, fabrication and QC process under the direct supervision of Velocite?


Custom draw. Not all products. For Selene and Millennium yes with some factory engineer consultation since we have the EN testing requirements and never stipulate a rider weight limit. With carbon frames we work with the factory engineers to come up with the final specifications. The factory engineers are the true materials and composite products manufacturing experts. Fabrication level (material, method, finish) and QC requirements are specified by us.




> It would be wonderful if you could clear this up. I think clarity on these issues would help out a lot with your brand, as you can see there is lots of skepticism regarding the often dubious practices of many equipment companies that are heavy on marketing and light on quality.


Yes, the bike industry is unfortunately not very transparent and it is considered normal to market bike products using intangible qualities/benefits and unlikely claims.





> I appreciate your attempts to clarify these matters and I do wish you well on your brand. I hope your products can prove the skeptics wrong.
> 
> A quality product is a paramount concern for cyclists who must put their trust in your product for the sake of safety and satisfaction. As an unknown company I am sure it is an up hill battle. Please understand my own and other cyclists tendency to be a little gun shy around an unknown series of products with marketing that offers so much at such discount prices. If it sounds too good to be true... it probably is. I hope this adage proves wrong.


Completely understood. Offering actual value is actually the main driving philosophy of Velocite and one of the main reasons why we started the brand. Velocite is not about low price and miracles. There are no miracles in engineering, or in pricing thus we do not rely on either. Velocite's aim is to offer transparent, even interactive way to get a very high end product that is fully supported by an active community and factory warranties.

It is indeed an uphill battle, and the one that has only just begun, but the objective is that the inherent value of what we are doing will drive us (ride us?) and our customers towards success.

V.


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## KenS

*Tennessee Titanium*



coyotegulch said:


> Have any of you heard of these guys www.pridecyclesusa.com? They have great prices on US titanium frames and are offering custom at the price of stock for February. I am considering ordering one, but haven't seen any comments on them.


Pride is located in Soddy Daisy, TN, which is just north of Chattanooga--home of Litespeed and Lynskey. The people at Pride likely have some connection with Litespeed or Lynskey in the past.


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## wheelio

*Chinese titanium*

I just ordered a Titanium custom road frame with S&S couplers for 880.00 bucks shipped to my door. Check out XACD titanium; web site. Don't know why your spending 1800.00. Just started to build mine up. The welds are very clean which means the miters are tight otherwise the flow of the welds would be compromised. Its Not Rocket Science. Just make sure you get your frame specs right it took me a while, A lot of drawings and numbers back and forth. The only issue I can think of would be contamination in tubing and around the welding environment. But since they have been building frames for twenty year they probably have that figured out.Any way thats my take on Chinese Ti. Good luck with your decision. 
.


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## Fai Mao

LSL Titanium in Xian makes very nice Ti Frames.

Just for what it is worth.

They don't do custom but will do small orders.for teams or groups.


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## Luo

Hello, Everyone,

This is my first day be here, this is my very first thread at roadbikereview.com

Just be here is because I've happened to see this thread title "*Cheap Chinese Titanium vs. Custom or Name Brand Titanium*" on google.

and as it happens, I am a normal person and right doing the titanium raw material exporting at a medium-size factory belongs to CHINA AEROSPACE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION ( CASC GROUP ), I guess some people may know this group, who is producing the rockets and others bla bla, if anyone don't know and interested, pls visit www.spacechina.com to know more of this group, CASC GROUP holds many factories, include some titanium material factories, we are one of them, and every month we producing huge quantity small and medium size diameter titanium wires and bars to our CASC Group self factories and many domestic big state-owned companies and private companies, we also exporting titanium and it's Alloy welding wires and other materials, products to worldwide customers for years. , some for welding, some for machine fasteners, application include rockets and missiles, medical field, petrochemical industry, vehicle and bicycle modifying and others.

back to the above thread which attract me here,
in a salesman side, many times many customers only give a very simple RFQ or drawing with vague description, and some parts the supplier even don't know it's final application environment, after the supplier offered this products, the surface mabe not clean and with defects, but this is do according his requirements.
in customer side, he will become worried the quality of the products which he received, if he could offer a detail description RFQ or give an exact specification / standard to an reliable supplier, this would significantly reduce the risk of quality problems. 

do not let your actual needs hidden in your heart, and only have an illusion that you will receive perfect products without your detailed description.

and meanwhile, I had read a great article which name is "What makes a good supplier?" at https://www.the-reseller-network.com...good-supplier/
I've inspired a lot by this article, hope this article can get you inspired and help you guys find a good supplier too.

in the end, *pls do not have a racial prejudice on the Chinese normal people, we are the same with other races people, most Chinese are hard working, honest, kind and merciful.*

thank you for your stand my poor English and your patience.


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## DrSmile

9 year old thread resurrect... Impressive. How long before this guy gets banned?


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## kiwisimon

Banned? I think his reply was considered and had some points to make. If you don't like it for what ever reason just move on, it's what I usually try and do.


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