# Doping at lower level cycling? Does it exist?



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

How far down the ranks does doping exist? It seems like some of the lower level athletes would be tempted as a means of getting picked up by a big time team and then earn the big dollars...


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

All the way down to Cat5, it's just not with EPO or blood doping. There are guys doing Salbutamol, testosterone, and ephedrine.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

There's an article in the current Bicycling mag about an amateur rider who was caught on some PED.

I race clean, unless of course Toaster Strudel is a PED.


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

Inosine, ephedrine, were very common in the Cat1/2 scene in the 90's. I actually had asthma so I never considered albuterol/salbuterol doping.

Cheers


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

mtbbmet said:


> All the way down to Cat5, it's just not with EPO or blood doping. There are guys doing Salbutamol, testosterone, and ephedrine.



Really? Why all the way down to CAT 5...that seems crazy to me. CAT 5 racers have no chance in he** of turning pro....unless they are fairly young I guess..


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

MaddSkillz said:


> There's an article in the current Bicycling mag about an amateur rider who was caught on some PED.
> 
> I race clean, unless of course Toaster Strudel is a PED.


Toaster Strudel and Chocolate Yoo-Hoo drink were a personal staple of mine:thumbsup:


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

MaddSkillz said:


> There's an article in the current Bicycling mag about an amateur rider who was caught on some PED.
> 
> I race clean, unless of course Toaster Strudel is a PED.



How did he get caught? I can't imagine they test at that low of a level...??


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

cmdrpiffle said:


> Toaster Strudel and Chocolate Yoo-Hoo drink were a personal staple of mine:thumbsup:



Haha..nice. I freebase cytomax in the parking lot to intimidate my oponents.


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

rydbyk said:


> Really? Why all the way down to CAT 5...that seems crazy to me. CAT 5 racers have no chance in he** of turning pro....unless they are fairly young I guess..


Well, to be honest, when I started, they didn't have Cat 5, 4 was the lowest. But yes, nobody can move up unless they have results. There is always the desire to beat the other guy and move up.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

cmdrpiffle said:


> Inosine, ephedrine, were very common in the Cat1/2 scene in the 90's. I actually had asthma so I never considered albuterol/salbuterol doping.
> 
> Cheers


It doesn't matter if you have asthma. Did you have a TUE? If you didn't you were/are doping. Most people fail to realize that. Fortunately, lower cat's are never tested.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

mtbbmet said:


> It doesn't matter if you have asthma. Did you have a TUE? If you didn't you were/are doping. Most people fail to realize that. Fortunately, lower cat's are never tested.



Whoa!


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

mtbbmet said:


> It doesn't matter if you have asthma. Did you have a TUE? If you didn't you were/are doping. Most people fail to realize that. Fortunately, lower cat's are never tested.


I doped extensively. Ephedra/ephedrine mostly in the form of 'Breathe Aid', Inosine, and some other stuff over the years.

I've not raced since 1998

Cheers
Mike


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

*Both the rules and the practices are wider than most think ...*



rydbyk said:


> How far down the ranks does doping exist? It seems like some of the lower level athletes would be tempted as a means of getting picked up by a big time team and then earn the big dollars...


None other than Levi Leipheimer was busted for ephedrine use in 1996, at the amateur USA criterium championship.

http://web.archive.org/web/19970124211641/www.winningmag.com/story/wol1204c.html

_* A USA Cycling disciplinary panel recommended that Levi Leipheimer receive a three-month suspension as a result of a violation of Bylaw N., Section 2, Part 4, Prohibited
Practices, stemming from competition at the USCF Amateur Men's Criterium Championship, Aug. 18 in Grandview Heights, Ohio. That recommendation has been upheld by Lisa Voight, USA Cycling executive director. The 23-year-old Leipheimer will be required to return his national championship jersey, medal and prize money. He will also
be suspended from the U.S. National Team for the same period. The decision is subject to appeal._

Also, did you look at the list of banned substances before you posted the question? They include: 
* cannabinoids.
* alcohol beyond 0.10 g/L.
* narcotics including oxycodone, morphine, methadone, etc.

So if you raced while high from pot, that is doping. If you show up to a race with sufficiently high blood alcohol leve, that is also doping. And if you juice up on oxycodone to dampen the pain during a race, that is also doping.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Anybody faster than me is doping. Forking cheaters.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It's probably "there", but probably not rampant, although I haven't heard any local racer get tested. 

The simple fact is that real EPO isn't cheap! Trust me, I'm a pharmacist. I'd venture to say that most payouts simply won't cover the cost. Sure, there will inevitably be people who can afford it.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

spade2you said:


> It's probably "there", but probably not rampant, although I haven't heard any local racer get tested.
> 
> The simple fact is that real EPO isn't cheap! Trust me, I'm a pharmacist. I'd venture to say that most payouts simply won't cover the cost. Sure, there will inevitably be people who can afford it.



That is EPO though. There are LOTS of everyday drugs/substances that are on the banned/doping substances list.

EDIT: Being a pharmacist, you could probably recognize more in the official WADA banned list than the rest of us:
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2010_Prohibited_List_FINAL_EN_Web.pdf

Note that beta-blockers are not kosher in certain sports, as is alcohol above 0.10g/L you blood.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Marc said:


> That is EPO though. There are LOTS of everyday drugs/substances that are on the banned/doping substances list.
> 
> EDIT: Being a pharmacist, you could probably recognize more in the official WADA banned list than the rest of us:
> http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2010_Prohibited_List_FINAL_EN_Web.pdf
> ...


I've glanced over the list before, but I don't really agree that some of the drugs are PEDs. Birth control is listed as a PED as are cortisteroids, which I simply don't think offer substantial benefits. 

Other than HGH, I simply don't put much stock in the use of things like albuterol to get an edge over the competition. Having been on and off prednisone my entire life, I simply think WADA could use a pharmacist. 

I'd agree that things like diuretics aren't PEDs, but used to try to excrete and mask PEDs. Realistically, most atheletes shouldn't need a diuretic if they are healthy enough for competition. If they need one, probably not safe for competition.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I've glanced over the list before, but I don't really agree that some of the drugs are PEDs. Birth control is listed as a PED as are cortisteroids, which I simply don't think offer substantial benefits.
> 
> Other than HGH, I simply don't put much stock in the use of things like albuterol to get an edge over the competition. Having been on and off prednisone my entire life, I simply think WADA could use a pharmacist.


Remember this is the WADA list, which governs more sports than just cycling. Swim meets for example are quite often won or lost by hundredths of a second. The edge, real or otherwise, doesn't need to be a big one in sporting environments like that.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Marc said:


> Remember this is the WADA list, which governs more sports than just cycling. Swim meets for example are quite often won or lost by hundredths of a second. The edge, real or otherwise, doesn't need to be a big one in sporting environments like that.


exactly. Beta blockers are not of much use in cycling but worth their weight in gold medals when it comes to e.g. shooting.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the documentary 'bigger, stronger, faster' has some interesting tidbits - most of the steroid abuse is not pro athletes, but 'gym rats' who don't compete (but just want to get big), beta blockers are widely abused by professional musicians at auditions. etc. cameo by Landis and his homemade altitude chamber (amazing he didn't die in the thing...)


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Ah yes "other sports". I tend to forget about those.  

I would agree that some have a benefit outside of cycling.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> beta blockers are widely abused by professional musicians at auditions. etc.


There's a good reason for that. There are often 100s of applicants for ONE job opening. All those hundreds of competitors are often equally qualified musically and technically. They all need the income.

In that situation is it really reprehensible using blockers?

Sport is one thing.

One's professional livelihood or another. You don't beat those 300 other applicants for that lone last chair 2nd violin opening (and the odds are often that with decent wage paying positions), you don't eat or pay your rent. That being said, they (blockers) aren't that common in music and most frown on them.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

AFIK, musicians don't take drug tests. There's probably a reason for that and a joke somwehere.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

spade2you said:


> AFIK, musicians don't take drug tests. There's probably a reason for that and a joke somwehere.


It is probably buried in the Memphis Blues.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Marc said:


> Remember this is the WADA list, which governs more sports than just cycling. Swim meets for example are quite often won or lost by hundredths of a second. The edge, real or otherwise, doesn't need to be a big one in sporting environments like that.


The UCI website links to the WADA list.

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI5/layout.asp?MenuId=MjI0NQ


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Marc said:


> There's a good reason for that. There are often 100s of applicants for ONE job opening. All those hundreds of competitors are often equally qualified musically and technically. They all need the income.
> 
> In that situation is it really reprehensible using blockers?
> 
> ...


sounds a lot like the rationalization pro cyclists make - the beta-blockers are being used as a PED, cover stories are told to doctors to get prescriptions (or they are obtained illegally), and they arguably give the person using them an unfair advantage.


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## Andrew1 (May 27, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It's probably "there", but probably not rampant, although I haven't heard any local racer get tested.
> 
> The simple fact is that real EPO isn't cheap! Trust me, I'm a pharmacist. I'd venture to say that most payouts simply won't cover the cost. Sure, there will inevitably be people who can afford it.


Can I ask a personal question? Where'd you go to school? I'm about to start my applications  and take the PCAT. 

For the OP, there are several masters racers in North Carolina that are rumored to dope. When you go to Mexico every spring for "altitude training" and then lap 35+ and 1/2/3 fields all year, people begin to wonder.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> sounds a lot like the rationalization pro cyclists make - the beta-blockers are being used as a PED, cover stories are told to doctors to get prescriptions (or they are obtained illegally), and they arguably give the person using them an unfair advantage.


Not really.

Those who actually need them are at a severe disadvantage to start with. Who is more at an advantage?
A) The person who has given the same speech/lecture 20+ times in 20 different spaces, and has gotten so accustomed to the situation that they barely even notice a raise in heartbeat. They have their speech memorized and don't even need a prompter.

B) The person needing to take drugs so that they don't stutter and worry about every single word they pronounce...and in their hyper-adrenaline rush are prone to putting pages in the wrong order.

In music, blockers don't really give anyone an edge over anyone else. Most of the people taking an audition are in Group A of the above. The people in Group B of the above are usually conservatory or college students who need to perform more often and learn there is nothing to worry about.

You play an audition anywhere-you're going to play the same 5 or 10 excerpts over and over, in front of the same black screen. You go to a symphony concert-everyone on stage has probably played the rep you're hearing 5-10 times before. Unlike say shooting a target midair, in an audition you know what they want and what they are going to ask for--and the only way you can screwup is if you have not practiced enough (your fault) or you let yourself get rattled (also your fault ~95% of the time).


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Andrew1 said:


> Can I ask a personal question? Where'd you go to school? I'm about to start my applications  and take the PCAT.
> 
> For the OP, there are several masters racers in North Carolina that are rumored to dope. When you go to Mexico every spring for "altitude training" and then lap 35+ and 1/2/3 fields all year, people begin to wonder.


They certainly do. . .


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Local rider, whom I've raced with:

http://www.chicagobikeracing.com/index.php/site/post/dewey-dickey-usada/


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

iliveonnitro said:


> Local rider, whom I've raced with:
> 
> http://www.chicagobikeracing.com/index.php/site/post/dewey-dickey-usada/


How did he get popped on the local level? Was it partially because of his problems in the past? Performance abnormalities?


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Sucks. IMO it sounds like he had some legitimate medical issues that possible warranted the use of drugs....

I could be way off.... I don't know the guy.


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

I known one and heard of other masters competitors in the Northwest using DHEA. The guy that I know for sure is over 60 and starting using in his 40's for weight control and to "feel like a man". He's won many age group cycling and triathlon titles during that stretch.

It sucks that he cheats but, in the absence of testing, the local sports bosses also dismiss complaints as rumor mongering by disgruntled also rans.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

When you get over the age of 35 the testosterone often starts dropping. No one can tell me they can recover like they did when they were 25 or even 30. 

I've tried testosterone and sure enough it works, it put me back to what I felt like when I was 30, the ability to ride flat out for several hours, get up the next day and do it again and again. I don't take it now, but there are a lot of drugs that do in fact have an effect on cycling, it's not just epo that gets the job done.

And of course it's total BS if you think the guys your racing with even at the Cat 5 level aren't taking anything that might give them an edge or an easy way out. We can't forget that cycling is a pain game and most people don't like to suffer. There's also the problem of having to accept that you're getting older, you don't feel older, but you can tell it when you can't quite hit the numbers you used to naturally, it's discouraging when you try and try.


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