# Ceramic Bearing Bottom Bracket Upgrade?



## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

I have a Cervelo RS with RED, except for the SRAM RED bottom bracket with ceramic bearings. Thinking of upgrading my $35 SRAM bottom bracket to be on par with rest of bike....I know SRAM RED bottom bracket has ceramic bearings ($200), but what about what about the two Superfly options (one for $99 and one for $149:

http://www.superflycycles.com/servlet/-strse-273/SRAM-fdsh-Truvativ-BB-with-Enduro/Detail

http://www.superflycycles.com/servlet/-strse-331/SRAM-fdsh-Truvativ-BB-with-Enduro/Detail

OR the F1 ceramic bearing bottom bracket for $180?

Has anyone both bottom bracket without ceramic bearings and one with ceramic bearings and noticed any difference? I seem to be leaning towards superfly with grade 3 ceramic bearings for $149....


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

I love ceramic bearing threads, they are always fun.


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## russotto (Oct 3, 2005)

Hard to believe there's any significant advantage for ceramic bearings for parts turning at about 100 rpm with fairly light loads.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

russotto said:


> Hard to believe there's any significant advantage for ceramic bearings for parts turning at about 100 rpm with fairly light loads.


IIRC, The Bicycling Science book questions the need for bearings at all, instead of bushings; and call even standard BB steel bearings unnecessary $$$$$$ theft by manufacturers.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Room 1201 said:


> IIRC, The Bicycling Science book questions the need for bearings at all, instead of bushings; and call even standard BB steel bearings unnecessary $$$$$$ theft by manufacturers.


From an engineering perspective, there are some decent arguments for that position, especially where there isn't enough diameter in the shaft to prevent flex. Arguably, bushings can (potentially, at least) be used to good advantage to provide lower real-world friction than a bearing that binds somewhat under load. 

That's somewhat less a factor with the outboard designs and BB30, etc, but was relevant in the square-taper days. Probably still some merit to the argument.

OP: Consider the ceramic BB as jewelry for your bike. Nice to have, fun to brag about, but not of any particular practical value.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

From another engineering perspective, the ceramic bearing quality you can buy for bikes right now is far lower than is necessary to see noticeable differences. To get quality ceramic bearings, one would have to spend at least a few hundred dollars...per bearing.

You are not spinning up to 15,000rpm. Do not worry about it. It's money down the drain. Not to mention they do not last very long.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks guys...you just saved me $150!!!


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## framed (Oct 25, 2005)

iliveonnitro said:


> Not to mention they do not last very long.


Do you have any empirical evidence of this? Most manufacturers claim they will last longer...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> You are not spinning up to 15,000rpm. Do not worry about it. It's money down the drain. Not to mention they do not last very long.


funny, you'd think that a harder, rounder ball bearing would last longer. i've killed some sram ceramic bb's by pressure washing bikes at cx races, but that's to be expected. under normal conditions, ceramic bearings should outlive regular steel bearings.


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## superflycycles (Nov 24, 2008)

*Comments about Ceramic Bearings*

Hi everyone,
Instead of having everyone speculate, I decided to post myself. I am the owner of Superfly Cycles. I work with Matt (owner of Enduro Bearings) extensively and offer both design and testing feedback. Let me address a number of issues.
1. We do have empirical evidence that ceramic bearings last longer (at least ours does). Enduro built a bearing tester that applies 100 pounds of radial load, 50 pounds of thrust all spinning at 135 rpm. Check out my blog on superflycycles.com to see a picture of the machine. It causes extreme accelerated wear and a Shimano Dura-Ace BB bearing lasts around 6 hours so that is our reference. Incidentally, Shimano bearings are very good for OEM bearings and are produced by a third party for Shimano. Many of the cheaper and lesser known ceramic bearings last less than 6 hours. So I agree with you guys when you say it isn't worth getting ceramics if it does not last as long as stock. We tested Ceramicspeed and their bearings lasted 3 times longer than a stock Dura-Ace. That is a great result and that was our target. Our stock ceramic BB bearing (grade 5) lasts over 20 hours. That is a little better than Ceramicspeed but they claim theirs is grade 3 while we were testing grade 5 bearings. We put our Grade 3 Zero bearings in the tester and that lasted much longer still - over 5 times longer than a stock Dura-Ace bearing. We have tested pretty much everyone's bearings and without naming names, we came out on top every time. 
Okay, some of you are thinking, "Well, that's good but how about independent testing?" I agree. So, we had a major bike company independently test our bearings as they want use them for OEM applications and ours again came out on top. In fact, it broke their record for the longest lasting bearing ever tested by them. Due to non-disclosure agreements, we cannot tell you who did the testing. However, we are open and happy to have anyone test our bearings.
2. The argument about friction is a tricky one. But from the destruction testing bearings, it is apparent that lower friction equals longer lasting bearings. Bearings wear out when the balls start damaging the races. This occurs with every bearing. After constant rolling over the races, the races will eventually wear out by some type of pitting or even splitting. With all things equal, the grade and hardness of the ball will determine the longevity of the bearing (remember, with all other things equal). This is easy to see as the rounder ball will roll more smoothly over the race. The harder bearings are better as they deform less. A grade 5 steel bearing will soon come out of tolerance due to metal deformation. And here is the crux of the argument - less friction means more speed. We can argue all day about what kind of advantage ceramic bearings give you but until someone provides concrete evidence, the argument will stay open.
3. The idea that you have to spend hundreds of dollars to get quality ceramic bearings is untrue. That was true in the past but no longer. Enduro as a company deals mostly with commercial bearings. The cycling part of the business is small. However, they deal with bearings from companies like *** (Enid) which produce bearings that cost more than most bikes. But why are their bearings more expensive? It used to be due to the fact that they were using better raw materials. And of course, a lot of money went into marketing. Enduro uses ceramic balls from Cerbec in Connecticut. We want this part of the discussion to be transparent as we do not want people to question the integrity of our bearings. The question you guys should be asking is whether or not you are actually getting grade 3 or grade 5 ceramic bearings. We can give you the lot number of the ceramic balls from the Cerbec. Who else uses Cerbec? Pretty much every high end instrument and weapons companies. The point is that we can easily verify the ceramic balls we use versus other companies that just claim to be grade 3 or grade 5.
4. A bearing is more than the sum of its components. Yes, the ceramic balls are very important to the overall construction of the bearing but the other parts are worth mentioning. As a side story, many teams in this year's Giro were using BB30 bearings. The natural assumption is that the bigger bearing will last longer. However, there were quite a few reports from teams with the BB30 bearings wearing out too quickly. We know this fact because Matt at Enduro shipped many sets of Enduro BB30 to Italy during this time. What was wrong with faulty BB30s? The BB30 designed by the bike companies used a the same size ball bearing as a standard bottom bracket. Enduro designed their BB30 to use a ball that was 33% larger because they realized they could fit a larger ball by decreasing the thickness of the race. This small change increased the radial load by almost 50% and resulted in a much longer bearing. Besides the balls, what parts are important to bearings? First, the races have to be hard enough to handle the ceramic balls. Stainless steel is softer than bearing grade chrome steel so it will wear out faster. Stainless is good for headset bearings as a headset does not have to handle the radial loads a wheel or bottom bracket does. We also use double cryogenically treated races to make the races even harder. The first cryogenic treatment occurs on the unfinished race. We then polish the race and cryogenically treat it again to realign the molecules after polishing. The retainers and seals are also researched to find the optimum configuration. I won't bore you with that but feel free to e-mail and I will provide an in-depth treatment. Last but not least, the proper grease is chosen. Here is where I am very open to discussion. I do a lot of grease research and there are several brands we use depending on the application. We use Kyudo Yushi PS2 as our all around grease but we have used other greases for certain situations. We may start offering bearings with different grease fills. For example, pro teams during the classics use a higher viscosity grease while cyclists during the world championship TT would use a much lower viscosity grease. Why use grease at all? What about dry lube bearings? We just tested dry lube bearings and I posted the results on my blog. The bottom line is that it does not work (think Slick 50). No grease is okay in very clean environments where very little load is placed on the bearing as in the case with dental tools. Cycling is a very dirty sport and grease offers a way to keep contaminants out. Plus, it does lubricate the bearings and prevent premature wear which leads me to the next section...
5. Ceramic bearings are not indestructible. They can and will wear out. Ceramic bearings need to be maintained like every other bearing. Grease has a finite lifespan when it is contaminated which will inevitably happen. That means overhauling the bearings is required for best results. Any contamination is like sandpaper on the bearings and eventually will result in a gritty feel. 

Anyway, I hope this helps. I know that skeptics may disagree with some (or all) of what I said but for a change, I wanted to present some evidence beyond anecdotes. I have not even touched on the athletes that use our bearings but we have had podium finishers in the grand tours and cyclists in almost every major cycling race use our bearings. This year, you will see Enduro ceramic bearings as OEM on many high end components and that is not due to marketing but to reputation. If you have any other questions, please reply and I will answer or you can e-mail me (see my website for e-mail address).

Chuck


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

superflycycles said:


> 2. The argument about friction is a tricky one. But from the destruction testing bearings, it is apparent that lower friction equals longer lasting bearings. Bearings wear out when the balls start damaging the races. This occurs with every bearing. After constant rolling over the races, the races will eventually wear out by some type of pitting or even splitting. With all things equal, the grade and hardness of the ball will determine the longevity of the bearing (remember, with all other things equal). This is easy to see as the rounder ball will roll more smoothly over the race. The harder bearings are better as they deform less. A grade 5 steel bearing will soon come out of tolerance due to metal deformation. And here is the crux of the argument - less friction means more speed. We can argue all day about what kind of advantage ceramic bearings give you but until someone provides concrete evidence, the argument will stay open.


Doesn't seem that tricky to me. With an SRM and Powertap/computrainer, you can measure power at both ends of the drivetrain. I'm sure about 15 million bicycle simulators have been made in the last century, too. Has anyone seen any results with ceramic bearings?


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## superflycycles (Nov 24, 2008)

*Measuring Ceramic Bearing Effectiveness*

It is tricky because the only way you can do it with a powermeter is to have the rider ride at a known fixed wattage and then compare the difference in speed. 

Chuck


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2008)

I think the tricky part in using a powertap and SRM would be separating out all of the other friction in the drivetrain. Some assumptions would have to be made and it would probably be pretty easy to throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Superfly is a first class operation and stands by their products. I ride their BB in my Ridley and have been VERY pleased with it. I run through a BB per year and the Enduro ceramic has lasted that long and is still very smooth.
I've installed quite a few on other bikes in town and they've all lasted a long while and continue to perform well.

If a standard BB is $X and the ceramic is $15-20 more, why not try the thing. You may be pleasantly surprised.:thumbsup: 

As an aside, most of the people who sh*t on ceramics have never even held them in their hands...

Big ups to Chuck and his team out there...


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Chuck,
Thanks for posting. It is good to see someone willing to engage the conversation without merely falling behind the marketing materials. I'd like to ask a follow-on question or two, mostly related to this bit:



superflycycles said:


> 2. The argument about friction is a tricky one. But from the destruction testing bearings, it is apparent that lower friction equals longer lasting bearings. Bearings wear out when the balls start damaging the races. This occurs with every bearing. After constant rolling over the races, the races will eventually wear out by some type of pitting or even splitting. With all things equal, the grade and hardness of the ball will determine the longevity of the bearing (remember, with all other things equal). This is easy to see as the rounder ball will roll more smoothly over the race. The harder bearings are better as they deform less. *A grade 5 steel bearing will soon come out of tolerance due to metal deformation. *And here is the crux of the argument - less friction means more speed. We can argue all day about what kind of advantage ceramic bearings give you but until someone provides concrete evidence, the argument will stay open.


1) As for a ball deforming, coming out of tolerance, and taking the races with it: Makes sense, especially in a destructive-test environment. The open question: How close is the typical rider to those conditions, and for how much of their ride time? Plastic deformation of a sphere is no small feat - it's plausible that (many) riders rarely if ever cross that threshold. I'm not arguing as such, but appreciate any insight you may have on the real-world cycling loads.

2) Related to 1), it seems that a most-common failure mode with a steel ball might be that hard shocks (eg bunny hops, etc) take the balls out of tolerance (or brinnell the race), and so eventually break down the rest of the bearing. The rest of the time, the load is not likely to be enough to create destructive forces. Given that possibility, the question of ceramic's relative lack of toughness (more brittle, if you prefer) comes into play. Deforming a ball may wear a bearing out over time, but breaking one will ruin it nearly instantly. I've seen first-hand a crash that resulted when cracked ceramic balls (brand withheld) seized a bb unexpectedly.

3) Related to 2), if that scenario is false and it is a relatively high, relatively constant load that we should be concerned with, we need to consider why other bearing manufacturers say that ceramic balls may not be suitable for high-load situations, precisely because they can accellerate steel raceway fatigue. Stated commonly, there can be such a thing as 'too good.' Again, whether continuous cycling loads are that high is an open question. This may be an alternate explanation to the Giro/BB30 anecdote, though I don't have any facts either way.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if we don't have high enough peak loads for #2, or high enough continuous loads for #3, there's a convincing argument that a quality steel ball is the equal to a ceramic hybrid for our application. If as I suspect, the primary driver of wear is proper installation, setup, and maintenance, it hardly matters at all which material is used for the balls.

Finally, there can be no argument that an equivalent quality steel bearing will perform as well as it's ceramic counterpart, at least until it wears too far. Then the question becomes one of longevity as proportioned to cost. By your own testing, that's roughly 3.3x in time - but the price difference is considerably greater. Even moreso, considering that aftermarket steel bearings can be had at higher quality and lower cost than Shimano's offerings. Further, that doesn't consider whether steel and ceramic bearings are effected proportionally by the 'torture' loads of destructive testing. By the very arguments used to justify ceramic balls, they should not be, suggesting that the ratio would tilt even farther in the favor of steel. 

I hope this doesn't seem an attack - I just can't make sense of ceramic bearings empirically, mathematically, or anecdotally. I'll happily be wrong if someone can point me towards the right answer.


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## superflycycles (Nov 24, 2008)

*Follow-Up*

Here are some answers. BTW, I welcome your questions and discussions.

1. A rider puts incredible loads on the bearings. Bicycle bearings are typically undersized for their application. In fact, you can feel bearing deformation by simply installing a bearing into a tight fit hub. Some hubs are slightly under-bored so the bearings need quite a bit of force when pressed in. The tight fit is noticeable in the feel of the bearing due to the races deforming. If a hub shell can exert this much force on a bearing, then it is easy to see how a rider can easily deform the races.
2. It depends on how the ceramic balls were made. Steel bearings can crack, too (I've seen it many times). Depending on the sintering and method of construction, ceramic balls can be very resistant to shock impacts. It also depends on the bearing construction. If the bearing is designed properly, the load will be distributed across many balls and the risk of cracking is greatly diminished. We, along with another company, tested how much force it takes to crack a ceramic ball. A high quality ceramic ball is almost 10 times more resistant to cracking than steel.
3. I do agree with you somewhat on this point. The limiting factor is the race compared to the ceramic balls. In fact, our testing even shows the races failing before the balls. However, this race failure still occurs at a slower rate than when using steel balls. As soon as the steel deforms, it causes accelerated wear on the races due to the ball not being as round. This can easily be demonstrated by rolling a ping pong ball. a round ping pong balls rolls very easily. Then put a small dent in the ping pong ball. It does not roll as easily and the result is increased friction which causes faster race wear.

Is there a difference between a garde 5 steel ball and a ceramic one? No, until the steel ball deforms and it will deform. Your argument is made on the presupposition that a rider cannot exert enough peak loads on bearing to cause deformation but this is completely not true. You can easily this by looking at drive-side rear hub bearings. When a rider starts to pedal and the cassette body engages, it cause point loading of that bearing. This is a well known trait. That is why this bearing fails most ofter and some hub companies try using larger bearings in this position. Zipp went from a 6802 to a 6803 bearing for 2009 as a 6803 has 20% more load capacity. If a rider never put high enough peak loads on a bearing, then wouldn't manufacturers try to use the smallest bearing possible?

Also,the argument that there are many higher quality bearings than Shimano is not true. Shimano bearings are absolutely fantastic compare to other companies. Even though Shimano uses g25 in their hubs, their bearings are laser matched. That means the bearings in a hub may be g25 but they are all the same diameter as diameter is not constant when producing steel balls. When purchasing ceramic balls, they can be purchased with a 0, +1, +2, etc. designation. This refers to the over or under on the diameter of the bearings. When Enduro buys ceramic balls, they only buy 0 so that we can guarantee a constant diameter. This is much harder to do with steel. So much so that Shimano has a laser scanner that finds matched sets of steel bearings. 

As far a financial justification, it is up to the user. Ceramic bearings are not cost effective compared to steel - I have no argument with that. Is a ceramic bearing twice as good as a steel one at twice the price? No. But neither is a $10000 racing bike compared to a $5000 bike (or even a $2500 bike). Like other high end bike parts, ceramic bearings are luxury that has to be justified by the user.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Point 1 I call BS. Press fit loads can be very impressive. Bears no relationship at all to the forces of a cyclist on a bike, where interference fits, bearing tools, and Young's modulus aren't relevant. The argument also depends strongly on the quality of the machining of both the bearing and the race - a small out-of-roundness for either item (or simple uncleanliness, for that matter) can change that story dramatically.

I don't want to make an argument of it, but there was a bit of logical bait-and-switch going on there. We were discussing BB's, and when convenient to make a point about overloading, you switched to hub bearings. Your point may still be valid, but it's generally not considered good form, and generally sets off alarm bells in my head.

Your statement that Shimano are outstanding bearings is true only relative to the cycling world - your existence in the marketplace and your own comparisons of dimensional consistency are evidence of that. It's also a somewhat disengenuous comparison, comparing Shimano's loose balls to other's cartridge bearing offerings. Compare a Shimano-spec cartridge bearing to quality industrial bearings, and they aren't quite so impressive. Still quite good and entirely suitable to the job at hand, but since this is essentially a bragging-rights game we're talking here...

I do appreciate your mention of them as luxury goods, which is precisely my view - see my first post in this thread, where I compared them to jewelry for the bike. To be clear, I have no doubt that ceramic bearings have a certain benefit - but I am equally certain that it is below measurement error when all of the forces on a bike are considered. It's tough for me to spend $150 to something that can neither be seen nor felt. I'd be far more likely to spend on something like Nokons, which can be both seen and felt.

FWIW, I'm not nearly so bullheaded on jockey wheel bearings. In all honesty, that's about the best application for the technology on a bike - relatively low loads, relatively high speeds.


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## superflycycles (Nov 24, 2008)

*Response to questions*

First of all, I am not trying to bait and switch. I thought this was a discussion on bearings and not just BB bearings. Point loads do occur from a normal rider and I provided an example where it happens. These extreme loads can also occur in a BB bearing; all you have to do is bunny hop. I mention the press fit example because many people do not know that a bearing can be deformed. Metal stretches and deformation is the result of stretch. I agree with you that many factors come into play when press fitting but you missed my point that something as simple as press fitting can distort the bearing.

About Shimano bearings - you are correct that I am referring to the cycling world. However, you claim that there are better industrial bearings out there. Can you name any? Can you provide any evidence? I know our testing is imperfect but at least we are trying. There are many other companies out there that release bearings with no testing whatsoever. Bearings designed for bicycles are different than bearings designed for motorcycles, etc. It is not "one size fits all". I only mention Shimano's loose balls to demonstrate that bearings are not an afterthought for them and that it is rather difficult to design high quality bearings.

I do agree that the BB is not the first place I would use ceramic bearings. I would actually put them in the wheels first. Why? Because no matter what you are doing, the wheels are always spinning. Also, wheel bearings do not get as dirty as pulleys and thus, less likely to be contaminated by dirt.

The Nokon cable example is an interesting one. Everyone has a preference for what they want in return for their money when purchasing bike parts. For me, Nokon cables are superfluous as they do not make me faster and offer no measurable performance benefit. However, you are willing to purchase them because you like the way they look and feel. Your choice and I do not fault you for it. We have performed experiments that show ceramic bearings do offer benefits. The question of how much this benefit translates into speed is still up for discussion but I just wanted to show people that we are trying to quantify the effects of ceramic bearings. I have not heard or seen anyone else do any research such as this and even though our results maybe somewhat flawed, it is a step in the right direction. I am also not trying to persuade people using false information; I just want to present the information that we have gathered. Ceramic bearings will not give you a 10% increase in speed...or 5%...or even 2%. The effect may be very small indeed. However, this effect may be worth it for people to buy it and for pros to use.

Thank you for your questions.

Chuck


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## david462 (Jan 3, 2008)

I used to make jokes about ceramic bearings... that is, until I got my hands on some and tried it out. 

Had a bike in the stand with Sram ceramic bb. Took the chain off and spun the cranks. They went forever. When they finally tried to stop, they started spinning back a little then forward again till it finally came to rest. Doing the same with my bike (sram steel bb), the cranks slowed to a stop fairly quickly. Does this mean you save even 1 watt? Probably not.

Same thing with ceramic pulleys, though the pulleys are probably the last place you would even think to put ceramic bearings, aside from the headset.

Also, after getting my hands on some Easton wheels with ceramic bearings, and even comparing them to their non ceramic hubs (but still one of their higher end hubs), spinning the wheel just went on forever with the ceramic bearing and felt super smooth.

So maybe you dont gain any rear wattage with ceramic bearings, but just to have a bike that spins and runs so smooth is a nice feeling.

--------------

by the way, not sure if there was a tool previous to this one, but Phil Wood just came out with a bearing tool that basically would allow you to switch your steel bearings out for ceramic (bb), and buying just the bearings themselves is a lot cheaper than the ceramic bb. Of course the tool is expensive but your LBS might have that.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

_First of all, I am not trying to bait and switch. I thought this was a discussion on bearings and not just BB bearings. Point loads do occur from a normal rider and I provided an example where it happens. These extreme loads can also occur in a BB bearing; all you have to do is bunny hop. I mention the press fit example because many people do not know that a bearing can be deformed. Metal stretches and deformation is the result of stretch. I agree with you that many factors come into play when press fitting but you missed my point that something as simple as press fitting can distort the bearing._

I did not miss your point, as that wasn't your point last time. Race deformation in press-fitting has nothing to do with the relative merits of conventional steel and hybrid ceramic bearings. Metal stretching even less so, as we are discussing compressive loads here. If this is not bait and switch, it's hopeful misdirection - toss whatever you can against the wall and hope something sticks.

_About Shimano bearings - you are correct that I am referring to the cycling world. However, you claim that there are better industrial bearings out there. Can you name any? Can you provide any evidence? I know our testing is imperfect but at least we are trying. There are many other companies out there that release bearings with no testing whatsoever. Bearings designed for bicycles are different than bearings designed for motorcycles, etc. It is not "one size fits all". I only mention Shimano's loose balls to demonstrate that bearings are not an afterthought for them and that it is rather difficult to design high quality bearings._

Naming them is easy - google 'Precision bearings.' I cannot provide evidence, but you have already claimed to. The bearings in the machine tools used to make your races must necessarily be of higher quality than Shimano bicycle bearings, or it would be impossible for your bearings to be of higher quality.

Not to labor the point, but it IS pretty much one size fits all. Many of the common sizes used in bicycles are standard industrial bearing sizes. 

_I do agree that the BB is not the first place I would use ceramic bearings. I would actually put them in the wheels first. Why? Because no matter what you are doing, the wheels are always spinning. Also, wheel bearings do not get as dirty as pulleys and thus, less likely to be contaminated by dirt._

But unless you are spun out of your 53x11 gear, the pulleys rotate move faster. Just saying. 

_The Nokon cable example is an interesting one. Everyone has a preference for what they want in return for their money when purchasing bike parts. For me, Nokon cables are superfluous as they do not make me faster and offer no measurable performance benefit. However, you are willing to purchase them because you like the way they look and feel. Your choice and I do not fault you for it. We have performed experiments that show ceramic bearings do offer benefits. The question of how much this benefit translates into speed is still up for discussion but I just wanted to show people that we are trying to quantify the effects of ceramic bearings. I have not heard or seen anyone else do any research such as this and even though our results maybe somewhat flawed, it is a step in the right direction. I am also not trying to persuade people using false information; I just want to present the information that we have gathered. Ceramic bearings will not give you a 10% increase in speed...or 5%...or even 2%. The effect may be very small indeed. However, this effect may be worth it for people to buy it and for pros to use._

Now it's your turn to have missed the point. Both them and your bearings (by your agreement) are luxury goods rather than true performance enhancers. May as well have bling that can be seen as hidden, if there's not going to be an advantage to the ride. Nokons, by the way, do offer real performance improvement in certain situations. For example on my tandem, the rear brake noodle takes a bad bend that kinks and binds normal housing. An $18 Nokon extension kit solved the problem. More germaine to the discussion, Nokon's are popular in the TT world because they allow for some otherwise impossible routings that yield real aerodynamic advantage. 

We'll leave the 'for the pros' argument to the side. Equipment choices there are based on marketing / sponsorship considerations, whimsical supersitition, and occasionally actual benefit. Which is effectively unknowable here, so not helpful to the discussion.

To return to a point or two: You've still not adequately explained referential load variance improvements. As we've previously established, without loads high enough to deform steel balls, ceramics and steel of equivalent quality are equal. Above that, there is a range of loads that will elastically deform steel balls and races. In that range, a steel bearing won't be damaged. On the other hand, a hybrid ceramic bearing's harder balls will concentrate the load on the race, thereby damaging them. Advantage: steel. Above that range, where steel begins to plastically deform, the races are deforming in either, and the ceramic balls are starting to be in danger of cracking. Ceramic bearings have advantages in certain situations, but high loads is NOT one of them.

You've previously argued that point by noting that you've seen steel bearings crack. That may be, but that's a quality issue. In spec, steel balls are tougher (less brittle) than ceramic. You've said that you've tested and a ceramic ball is 10 times more resistant to cracking than a steel ball. That is simply a lie, or you do not know how to perform testing. The company you buy your bearings from states that they do not have the toughness (in engineering terms, the resistance to cracking when stressed) that steel balls do. Right on their website.

http://cerbec.saint-gobain.com/FAQ/Faq.asp

Other portions of the FAQ (especially the last question) argue these points better than I can. 

Despite all of this, I do want to make clear that your bearings are superior to standard bicycle bearings, when considered as a commodity item. The difficulty is that when misapplied - as they are in cycling - they are somewhere between no help and an actual detriment.

After it all, if one manages to convince themselves that this is an appropriate application for hybrid ceramic bearings, there's still the 'weakest link' problem - the rest of the bicycle system isn't suitably precise to allow this purported performance advantage to net proveable gains on the road.

And please don't get me started (not that you did, but I can't help myself) on the 'spins forever' argument. That's entirely related to seal quality and grease, and probably indicates a worse rather than better solution anywhere other than the repair stand.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

danl1 said:


> _First of all, I am not trying to bait and switch. I thought this was a discussion on bearings and not just BB bearings. Point loads do occur from a normal rider and I provided an example where it happens. These extreme loads can also occur in a BB bearing; all you have to do is bunny hop. I mention the press fit example because many people do not know that a bearing can be deformed. Metal stretches and deformation is the result of stretch. I agree with you that many factors come into play when press fitting but you missed my point that something as simple as press fitting can distort the bearing._
> 
> I did not miss your point, as that wasn't your point last time. Race deformation in press-fitting has nothing to do with the relative merits of conventional steel and hybrid ceramic bearings. Metal stretching even less so, as we are discussing compressive loads here. If this is not bait and switch, it's hopeful misdirection - toss whatever you can against the wall and hope something sticks.
> 
> ...


You said in a previous post that you didn't want to argue, yet you seem to be, well...ARGUING EVERY F*CKING POINT!!!!!!!!!!!
You argue with everyone in every post you make on every topic. If you don't like ceramics, that's fine, but a lot of folks do. Do they work? Yes, just as well as anything else. Are they expensive? Not so much anymore...people buy them for the same reason a dog licks his balls. 
Chuck is a hell of a guy and is trying to make cycling better for everyone, while you just seem to want to drag everyone down with BS and innuendo. :mad2:


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

As the original poster, perhaps I should get a Grade 3 Zero BB from Superfly to do some field testing and will post detailed ride report. Please feel free to PM for my shipping address - Cervelo RS with SRAM Red Cranks. Would prefer black cups, but I don't think the Grade 3 Zero comes with black cups......

HEHEHEHEHE!!!! Lighten up people...we are talking about BICYCLES.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

I don't know if ceramic bearings are any 'better' or 'faster' than steel bearings but when I changed out the standard bearings in my Dura Ace external BB to ceramic bearings, the bike became much smoother while I was pedaling. I like that and it was worth the money to me.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Gee! What a good thread! Superfly & Danl1 seem to be kind of evenly matched in the discussion. I can't add anything on either side, because I don't have that kind of knowledge. I do know that I'm getting an education, which is a good thing. I don't have ceramic bearings, nor do I plan to purchase any in the foreseeable future, but it sure is nice to see at least some data that isn't just anecdotal for a change.

The only thing I have an issue with is backinthesaddle's statement, 

_"You said in a previous post that you didn't want to argue, yet you seem to be, well...ARGUING EVERY F*CKING POINT!!!!!!!!!!!
You argue with everyone in every post you make on every topic. If you don't like ceramics, that's fine, but a lot of folks do. Do they work? Yes, just as well as anything else. Are they expensive? Not so much anymore...people buy them for the same reason a dog licks his balls. 
Chuck is a hell of a guy and is trying to make cycling better for everyone, while you just seem to want to drag everyone down with BS and innuendo. "_

Personally, I don't know either individual. I never even heard of Superfly until this thread. I understand that you like Chuck, his company, and ceramic bearings. That's all good, and yet the implication seems to be to stop the discussion. Both debaters seem to be holding their own. I, as well as others, are benefiting from the information being presented. It is, after all, free speech - kind of a tradition and constitutional right in the U.S. Trying to quash it doesn't seem wise. Neither person has used profanity or insults. I say let it go on.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

So Superfly, why is the superfly ceramic bottom bracket better than the F1 Ceramic Bearing Bottom Bracket?


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## citybiker (Nov 27, 2008)

Great engineering discussion, but rather impertinent on both sides. I have upgraded my bikes to ceramics bearings. I love the feel of them (yes, I can FEEL the difference)!!! I'm not a pro rider, so I probably can't detect the wattage difference, but hey...Half of this game is 90% mental. I enjoy the positive MENTAL benefits of knowing I have lighter, smoother, and yes more expensive bearings. I ride with more confidence, I push harder, I climb better. Whether that gain comes from actual technology or psychology, I could scarcely care. I will continue to use ceramic bearings because I have no doubt they are better for my riding than steel. Techno mumbo jumbo just doesn't matter.


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## airs0ft3r (Feb 28, 2008)

citybiker said:


> Great engineering discussion, but rather impertinent on both sides. I have upgraded my bikes to ceramics bearings. I love the feel of them (yes, I can FEEL the difference)!!! I'm not a pro rider, so I probably can't detect the wattage difference, but hey...Half of this game is 90% mental. I enjoy the positive MENTAL benefits of knowing I have lighter, smoother, and yes more expensive bearings. I ride with more confidence, I push harder, I climb better. Whether that gain comes from actual technology or psychology, I could scarcely care. I will continue to use ceramic bearings because I have no doubt they are better for my riding than steel. Techno mumbo jumbo just doesn't matter.


So 45 percent of the game is mental ?
I think smoothness is a key factor in how I feel when I ride a bike. Whenever I;m pedaling, there better not be a clicking sound or roughness to my stroke or I'm going down in the dumps. Ceramic bearings seem to win in that category. Of course, the only time I've used on is on a Sram Red bike on a stand.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

citybiker said:


> Great engineering discussion, but rather impertinent on both sides. I have upgraded my bikes to ceramics bearings. I love the feel of them (yes, I can FEEL the difference)!!! I'm not a pro rider, so I probably can't detect the wattage difference, but hey...Half of this game is 90% mental. I enjoy the positive MENTAL benefits of knowing I have lighter, smoother, and yes more expensive bearings. I ride with more confidence, I push harder, I climb better. Whether that gain comes from actual technology or psychology, I could scarcely care. I will continue to use ceramic bearings because I have no doubt they are better for my riding than steel. Techno mumbo jumbo just doesn't matter.



I recall Marquis de Sade, somthing or other about feeding one's people, opium, and religion and ignorance.....strung together it sounds rather clever IIRC.


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## superflycycles (Nov 24, 2008)

*Differences bewteen F1 and Enduro BB*

Hello everyone, 
Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving. 

The difference the F1 and the BBs I sell is that we use oversize MR2437 bearings. Let's face it, cups are cups. Ours are shiny and pretty and made in the US (near Hollister, CA) but they are just a holding device for the bearings. The MR2437 bearing is 24 x 37 x 7 versus 25 x 37 x 7 for the 6805 that comes in F1. The F1 bearing uses the plastic dust cover that also acts as a reducer which FSA and Shimano both use. We use silicone seals over the bearings as the dust cover/reducer is no longer needed. By using a slightly larger bearing, we are able to use 5/32" inch balls instead of 1/8". That is a 20% increase in ball size which also greatly increases static load capacity. The crank makes direct contact with the bearing and not the dust cap. This is the stock OEM bearing size that Trek purchases from Enduro for use in all the high end Trek Madones. Lastly, there is also the difference between the bearings themselves. I have already covered why I think our bearings are better (my opinion so no flaming please) but I'll let you make that judgment.

I also want to say that I enjoyed discussing bearings with Dan:thumbsup: but I think Dan and I have both laid out our arguments and it is up to the reader to decide. There are many people who will always be skeptical about ceramic bearings but that's normal; it is up to the individual rider to decide what components are worthwhile. If any of you want any more info or need a question answered, please feel free to contact me and I would be glad to help.

Chuck


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