# Vive Il Pirata!!!



## wzq622 (Aug 3, 2004)

well, it's the 1 yr anniversary since Marco Pantani passed away. I must admit, it's still a little sad to think that one of cycling's most vibrant personalities is no longer with us. 


While the fact remains clear that he did use recreational and performance-enhancing drugs, I still view him as a great cyclist that fully exploited his talent as a climber. I dont think fans understand the pressures that pro athletes endure when millions of dollars are at stake and the future of an entire franchise depends on one or a handful of individuals. Thus, i will never comprehend why people over-exaggerate their disappoint when an athlete cheats by taking drugs. Theyre out for money and that's the objective of the teams and the athletes. It's simply a business, nothing more.

I found the interrogation and accusations to be a vile and dehumanizing process. From what i observed, the Italian courts were judicial monsters out to make Pantani a martyr for their cause. The court did not treat him with a shred of dignity. However dogmatic that may sound, it is how I viewed the travesty that killed a cycling legend.


In retrospect, no matter how tainted Pantani's career may be, I will always remember him as a passionate person who dedicated his life to this sport.





Riding high in the heavens above, vive Il Pirata.


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## NC_Jim (Aug 26, 2002)

*Here we go!!*



> Theyre out for money and that's the objective of the teams and the athletes. It's simply a business, nothing more.
> 
> Enron was just a business. It cheated and ruined hundreds of thousands of lives. Did Enron's employees and stockholders over-exaggerate their losses?
> 
> ...


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## wzq622 (Aug 3, 2004)

*...*

...clean race? in pro cycling? i think it's safe to assume nothing in "pro"-anythng is or will be clean. 

If one wants to find inspirations or aspirations, look to the amateurs. Theyre the only ones who define sports in its purest form of competition. Pro sports shouldnt be seen as a sanctuary for clean behavior or morals. As hard as regulators try and fans implore, pro sports will always be tainted by drugs.

as for over-exaggeration, Pantani's family didnt over-exaggerate the death. Enron's employers who lost their jobs didnt over-exaggerate their losses. Theyre the witnesses and recipients of the greed and foul play of an entity beyond their control. But, there are fans in sports who are somehow shocked that athletes in their respective domain take drugs. It comes to no surprise for me when someone i admire OD's or compromise their image or career.

...and it is incredibly ignorant of you to assume im celebrating Pantani's death by debating drugs in sports. Youre the one who's debating. i was merely stating my feelings and emotions. the purpose of my post is not to incite conflict, but act as an outlet for my opinions. Granted, this may not be a forum for editorials, but i am not the first to dispel how i feel.


If you want to continue arguing, lets do it outside this forum and site so others wont have to tolerate your BS.


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## Reynolds531 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Dignity?*



wzq622 said:


> The court did not treat him with a shred of dignity. However dogmatic that may sound, it is how I viewed the travesty that killed a cycling legend..


Everything I've read and heard about Pantani is that he did not treat himself with a shred of dignity. The courts get blamed by those who can't face the shameful way that he lived and died. In the end, the pain and sorrow he brought to this world outweighed the hope and joy. For me, this is the definition of hell.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Velonews quick article on this Pantani rememberence:

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/7560.0.html

Fans of the Pirate will probably dig this:

http://store.velogear.com/mapaleoftrch.html


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## meat tooth paste (Oct 6, 2004)

For Pantani fans, here is a cool poster you get at VeloGear


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## wzq622 (Aug 3, 2004)

*nice*



meat tooth paste said:


> For Pantani fans, here is a cool poster you get at VeloGear



I think ive also seen it at World Cycling Productions. costs around $20 (?). good stuff tho


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Racing, particularly the Tour, could use a rider as dynamic and attacking as Pantani - a rider not afraid to ignite a mountain stage rather than following the wheels until the last 6 kms.

So Pantani was a doper - so what? So are most of the pro peloton. Pantani may have enhanced the talent he had but what talent in the first place - he rode in the great line of the Italian campionissimi and the modern sport could use a hell of a lot more of that than the percentage riding, tactics worked out to within an inch of their life, rigid and frankly dull leave nothing to chance riding that dominates the Tour now. Whenever Pantani rode, something truly special happened - something out of the ordinary and unexpected and the pro peloton is the sadder for not having riders like him around.


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## NC_Jim (Aug 26, 2002)

*Problem is...*

..."Whenever Pantani rode, something truly special happened - something out of the ordinary and unexpected and the pro peloton is the sadder for not having riders like him around."

...could he have done it without the drugs? There will always be an asterik beside his name and he did that to himself and me.


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## Thommy (Sep 23, 2003)

*you say poh-tatyto I say pa-tahto*



NC_Jim said:


> ..."Whenever Pantani rode, something truly special happened - something out of the ordinary and unexpected and the pro peloton is the sadder for not having riders like him around."
> 
> ...could he have done it without the drugs? There will always be an asterik beside his name and he did that to himself and me.


All I have to say is that the cool thing about this forum is we get to express our opnions. Isn't that the beauty of this country??!!! Too many of us on this board seem to forget this. So incase you've forgotten, and you know who you are; everyone is entitled to their opnion regardless of what brand of bicycle parts or bicycle they ride. Nuff said.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

didn't I make it pretty clear that I don't care? That if you think there's an asterisk against Pantani then you better start sprinkling them liberally throughout the achievements of the entire pro peloton.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Bianchigirl said:


> didn't I make it pretty clear that I don't care? That if you think there's an asterisk against Pantani then you better start sprinkling them liberally throughout the achievements of the entire pro peloton.


But you've stumbled into the domain of the Flat Earthers who live in some sort of fantasy world where only a few bad apples dope. You should not expect they will ever give props to Pantani.

My favorite pros of the recent era were Virenque and Pantani. Both of those guys knew how to lay it on the line and go for it. None of this hiding behind your teamates and waiting until the last 2K to grab a few seconds. It is just so sad that Pantani could not put things behind him and stick it to his critics like Virenque did.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

FWIW:

1. Most of the peloton hasn't been pulled from the Giro by the Vampires.

2. Most of the peloton hasn't got the nickname "Mr 60%"

3. Most of the peloton didn't invent their own nicknames to get away from one that made fun of his formerly big ears.

4. Most of the peloton did not act like a petuant child after 1999. His performance in the Tour with Armstrong was quite telling- especially his "attack then quit mid stage" stategy. Not sure if that is what the Tour needs. 

5. While 1998's win was something- given the Festina et al EPO events and what happened in the subsequent Giro there are serious questions about Pantani's true abilities- just like Rumsas and others who had one great year then got busted. 

6. He may have gotten the short end of the stick in his mind, but he was given many chances to come back- rather then the "hounding" he perceived the Tifosi pulled for him fervently till the end. He could have recovered his racing stature, other Festina riders disgraced at the same time sure did. But his internal demons- not the media nor the legal establishment brought about his downfall. Like Jimenez (sp?) a sad sad case of cycling's problem with depressed former pro's one that has been around for decades. 

7. I wish he could have recovered and raced again focussed on the climbers jersey. But it wasn't to be.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> FWIW:
> 2. Most of the peloton hasn't got the nickname "Mr 60%"


I thought this thread was about Marco Pantani, not Bjarne Riis...


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## deluc6519 (Sep 21, 2004)

*what was his numbers?*

i've allways heard he tested 52% something like 30 mins after the finish of a mountain stage and was 48% the next morning, but i've heard people say 60%. anyone know the numbers? 

btw if you watch the 94 and 95 tours he was incredible then also, most people only remember 98 but the early years (he had hair in 94 all though not much of it) were incredible. i watched them not too long ago and man he showed a lot of signs about "what could have been" and man it was so much fun to watch him race. 

another thing indurain was a monster (putting 7 mins in lance in a tt) more than our modern veiws remember when we talk about who was the greatest.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Mr 60% was Bjarne Riis.

Pantani never chose to focus on the climber's jersey - he always saw himself as a GC contender. 

I seem to recall it was St Armstrong who chose to rubbish a fellow champion by digging up the big ear nickname.

Pantani didn't ride the 1999 Tour. And at least he did attack Armstrong relentlessly when he rode against him instead of rolling over and playing dead like the rest of the peloton does.

But then I see a peloton littered with questionable performances - Hincapie blowing out the best climbers in the world until the last 4 kms of a climb? Basso being able to hold Armstrong's wheel all of a sudden? How many eyebrow raising performances have we seen over the last 6 years? After Armstrong declared that doping was 'finito' in the peloton in 1999?

Enjoy it for what it is, but never ever think this a clean sport. And enjoy and remember Pantani for what he did for the Tour - made it an exciting race whenever he rode instead of the soulless, planned to within an inch of its life parade it has become.


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## NC_Jim (Aug 26, 2002)

*The rules are clear, no performance enhancing drugs.*

If someone wins an Olympic gold, and is PROVEN (not accused, but proven) to have done drugs, should he keep the award?

If the rules say you can't, then anything else is a lie, and yes, I think quite a few riders do drugs. Doesn't make it right.


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## deluc6519 (Sep 21, 2004)

*as for basso*

i mean come on he showed talent early on, looking good in the 01 tour until crashing and breaking his collar bone (correct me if i'm wrong), and is right now coming into the 28-32 year old window most tours are won in. 

yeah even if he doped i still miss marco.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

NC_Jim said:


> If someone wins an Olympic gold, and is PROVEN (not accused, but proven) to have done drugs, should he keep the award?


Under Olympic drug testing rules, Hamilton was not proven to have doped. You don't see Ekimov bashing Tyler in the press and claiming he was cheated out of a gold medal, do you? I wonder why? Maybe it's not a good policy when the other guy is a former teammate and knows where the bodies are buried.

At least he won his event--unlike a certain gymnist who kept an undeserved gold medal.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

1994 2 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1995 2 stages, Tour de France 
1 stage, Tour of Switzerland 
1997 2 stages, Tour de France 
1998 Tour de France 
2 stages, Tour de France 
Giro d'Italia 
KoM, Giro d'Italia 
2 stages, Giro d'Italia 
1999 4 stages, Giro d'Italia 
2000 2 stages, Tour de France 
fairly consistent results when he was riding


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## NC_Jim (Aug 26, 2002)

*The answer is...*

no. No awards. Pull 'em.

If PROVEN (PROVEN, not accused, but PROVEN) to be using drugs then the award is pulled!

Cheating is cheating and is wrong and should not under any circumstances be view otherwise.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Pantani Photo*

my favorite


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

*A sad misguided man*

Here's a quote from an obituary on cyclingnews.com, you can view the full article here 

"Wearing the maglia rosa and two days away from winning the 1999 Giro d'Italia, Pantani was kicked out of the race for high haematocrit, thus beginning his downward spiral that tragically concluded today in Rimini. Pantani faced alleged sporting fraud charges in his career, but the climber from Cesenatico was never found guilty of any real charges. *In 2000, Pantani did receive a three-month suspended prison sentence for high hematocrit levels, but his conviction was then overturned on appeal. In 2002, Pantani served a six month UCI ban after a syringe containing traces of insulin was found in his hotel room in the San Remo "blitz" during the 2000 Giro."*

So, there it is. The guy was never convicted of the big stuff, but had high hematocrit, and was found with a syringe in his hotel room. Whether or not you loved his dramatic attacks, you must admit that he was a cheat, and a doper. I don't really think any less of him for it, as I believe most of the peloton is doing the same, but is it really the stuff of legends that you want to be around for future generations of cycling? I certainly don't think so. The guy is tainted, not so much his palmares, but that he was a drug addict, his cycling certainly didn't help as that just led him to more drugs, when he probably needed some help.

By the way, that great picture above (one of my favorites) is from the 98 tour when the peloton stopped to protest the vampires and UCI for throwing festina and others out of the race. How can you support the man who was not only a cheat, but continued to fight for the rights of his friends to harm themselves and continue to dope. That's the real problem.

Silas


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## Angelracer (Dec 12, 2004)

A man who dies of depression truely had somthing embeded in his heart so deeply that no one could touch. He was so greatly hurt that his career was ruined. He was distroyed. All of his accomplishments are now tainted now that we see what he had done. I think he didnt really know what it would come of. He didnt realize that this usage would lead to this, wouldnt you do somthing to get faster and stronger but you had do die by the time your thirty? Its a difficult quetion. I respect the man. He had great motivation. 

"Its much more satisfying to finish alone. There's a different taste of victory when you leave everyone behind. Its a taste of triumph..." 

....his very own words............God Bless Marco where ever he may be now


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Bianchigirl said:


> Mr 60% was Bjarne Riis.
> 
> Pantani never chose to focus on the climber's jersey - he always saw himself as a GC contender.
> 
> ...


Thanks I stand corrected on the Mr. 60% (which is a scary number- Yikes!)

Pantani's palmares was based around his climbing ability and picking races which matched that. Other then 1998, he really wasn't a true GC rider. His TT skills were too poor for that. But he could have taken several polka dot jerseys away from Virenque with ease. And may have done well in the Vuelta as well, especially in some of the "climber's delight" years they have had. 

And he didn't attack "relentlessly" in the post 1998 Tour, he tried on the Alpe and Lance stayed with him easily. Lance, trying to emulate Big Mig's approach, gifted the stage to him, trying to bring Pantani and his team as allies in the mountains. This was an alliance which would have benefited *both* teams and riders. But Pantani's petuant nature wouldn't allow it- he fired off his mouth in the press (_first_ by the way- and often) bad mouthing Armstrong and deluding himself that he could have beat him and repeatedly insulting Armstrong. Only then did Armstrong return fire pointing out the absurdity of Pantani's insults and self given nickname (this is where the Big Tex joke came from- later seen in tatoo form on the Nike ad). Also, this is where Armstrong shifted from trying to emulate Big Mig's approach and started following the harder nosed approach of the Badger and Eddy- no gifts (outside your team). 

After getting smacked down in the press, Pantani went on the attack, sort of. He rode off way too early on a mountain stage, and did get Armstrong to chase (a tactical mistake if you intended to finish the stage). Then Pantani simply quit mid-stage with a phantom stomach problem. Yeah a real attacking rider. . .


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Addio Pirata*

Addio Pirata


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

I don't have anything to add to the doping discussion. Regardless of the decisions he made in his life, the sport was more exciting with him than it is now without him.


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## haiku d'etat (Apr 28, 2001)

i miss him. alot.

good on ya, bianchigirl.

ciao marco.


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

*Homer*

The problem with BianchiGirl's arguments is that she tries to elevate Pantani by degrading Armstrong and the Tour and my guess is she doesn't like Armstrong partly because he's American. This serves no purpose. Pantani's cycling career should be allowed to shine on its own, he was fun to watch leave it at that. Also, when you say things like the Tour is a club race around France you're not doing your argument a favour. Its a silly statement and you come off as nothing more than a Homer.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

giovanni sartori said:


> The problem with BianchiGirl's arguments is that she tries to elevate Pantani by degrading Armstrong and the Tour and my guess is she doesn't like Armstrong partly because he's American. This serves no purpose. Pantani's cycling career should be allowed to shine on its own, he was fun to watch leave it at that. Also, when you say things like the Tour is a club race around France you're not doing your argument a favour. Its a silly statement and you come off as nothing more than a Homer.


I think you'll find that Armstrong himself tried to elevate his own position by degrading Pantani. The 'it's all because Armstrong is American' argument is tired - I dislike Armstrong because he comes across as arrogant and obnoxious - and if you take that as an anti-American argument than I suggest you look to yourself for feeling thus aggrieved. I didn't care for it in Bernard Hinault either, but have a little more respect for his aggressive attitude to his sport and his desire to win any race at all costs throughout the season.

I also suggest you do a little research into the Giro - it's history and legends and then compare and contrast to the Tour. The Tour was the first race I ever saw on the road, and I have always held a place of special affection for it, but I don't kid myself that it's the tough one - but then I don't buy the Armstrong propoganda to justify his lack of what - ability? guts? - to attempt to ride a GT double - something that Pantani did with enormous elan. 

But this is a thread about Pantani and I think his achievements - not least that double, decimating Ullrich in the process - speak for themselves, don't you?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*was a Pantani fan myself*

though UCH would consider me a flat earther though I'm known to argue both for and against his nemisis. anyhow, Pantani's H-Crit during the accident was 60 and dropped to sub 20 before the Team Docs arrived. I enjoyed his riding style, his panache but I find it funny UCH and BG will defend convicted dopers (Virenque, Pantani) (ya know evidence that is beyond libel laws) by saying 'they all dope'. well if they all dope then what's the beef with LA? why do you consistently pick on him, cause he's winning? why not the rest of the peloton, or any other star? heck some of the Big Giro riders have already been busted. I'm sorry but it all smells of sour grapes. He's arrogant, cocky, same as Hinault?
Hate to say it, so was Pantani, Merckx, Anquetil, kinda the trademark of a Great Champion. Kinda attitude you need to take flyer up a mountain.

As for Virenque, well never impressed me. 1 big attack, grab some smaller KOM points and voila polka dots. Van Impe said it best "No true climber loses 20 minutes on a mountain stage." Though he holds the record, I wouldn't put him in the same League with Van Impe, Bahamontes, Gaul, Fuente or Chiapucci just as I wouldn't put LA in the same league as Merckx and Hinault.


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## drevelo66 (Jan 22, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> though UCH would consider me a flat earther though I'm known to argue both for and against his nemisis. anyhow, Pantani's H-Crit during the accident was 60 and dropped to sub 20 before the Team Docs arrived. I enjoyed his riding style, his panache but I find it funny UCH and BG will defend convicted dopers (Virenque, Pantani) (ya know evidence that is beyond libel laws) by saying 'they all dope'. well if they all dope then what's the beef with LA? why do you consistently pick on him, cause he's winning? why not the rest of the peloton, or any other star? heck some of the Big Giro riders have already been busted. I'm sorry but it all smells of sour grapes. He's arrogant, cocky, same as Hinault?
> Hate to say it, so was Pantani, Merckx, Anquetil, kinda the trademark of a Great Champion. Kinda attitude you need to take flyer up a mountain.
> 
> As for Virenque, well never impressed me. 1 big attack, grab some smaller KOM points and voila polka dots. Van Impe said it best "No true climber loses 20 minutes on a mountain stage." Though he holds the record, I wouldn't put him in the same League with Van Impe, Bahamontes, Gaul, Fuente or Chiapucci just as I wouldn't put LA in the same league as Merckx and Hinault.


I'm an Armstrong fan, but I agree that he's no Merckx, who's the greatest ever. Hinault was the last of the _patrons_ that raced both classics and GT's. I'll never understand why Armstrong is damned for qualities that everyone now praises Indurain for!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yes it's funny*

Big Mig said I'd give a thousand 2nds (in other races) for TdF wins. He gave Lance the concept of focus (along with that cadence - but Van Impe started that IMHO) on the Tour.
I said it in another post, and this is what History has shown us.
Every decade a rider comes along who is a physiological freak. This rider combines rare genetic gift with insane work ethic and desire to win. he surrounds himself with people dedicated to this cause and then trounces the pack. LA fits this mold to a T. He has the freakish heart/ lung and pedaling of Big Mig with the Lactic Threshold of Merckx. All this stuff was tested on him when he was quite young and the fact that he was a top level triathalete while still in his teens gives creedence to his BORN gift of a hell of a motor.
(in addition his young WC - another feat of most of the greats) all this stuff predates all the drug hype many try to claim. Like all the greats, he makes the GT -predictably boring and people resent that. I've said it a million times, to be a 'hater' implies you are a 'lover' of someone else. I don't have any attachment to any rider (maybe Backstedt as I'll root for anyone near my size) so I tend to just look at these issues without bias. Despite all the cries of conspiracy he far more fits the tradition that's been established since Coppi.
The only thing about the haters that bothers me is, it was a hater who punched Merckx
which most likely cost him his 6th. I'd hate to see anyones careers screwed by an idiot fan whose bitterness manifests itself into violence.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm no Lance fanboy - never was, never will be. But he does have the genes as junkie said. Good for him, but what always bothered me about LA was his lack of even a serious effort at a GT double. Always looked to me like he just wants a page in the TdF history book. You'd think he'd have won in at least a single Giro or Vuelta, whether or not he would have won a TdF in the same year. Hell, he's not even a Classics guy. 

No, I don't like his smugness and attitude most of the time either. Sure, many of the top dogs are like that, but many also are not - Poulidor, Hamilton, Museeuw, Escartin, Olano, to name a few - proving that being an a$$hole is _not_ a pre-requisite to having a strong work ethic, competitiveness, and/or natural ability.

I think LA's afraid of getting his shammy handed to him on any other race when he has plans to race and win in July. Or maybe he _doesn't_ have that great of a work ethic, competitiveness, or natural ability.

Far as Pantani, he was bold enough and good enough to attack and win. But I don't think most people really understand what having clinical depression can do to a person - no matter what their abilities or possible acheivements might be. It can be a debilitating, all-consuming affliction that often goes unseen or unconquered, and has devastated greater men than Pantani.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*agreed*

and the fact that GT's, you have the ability to make up for a 'bad day' where in classics you don't. It's what makes Merck's career so impressive. To win a classic you have to be 110% that day. To win a load, well just says how bad you really are.

as for the smugness, yes Poulidor was a nice guy. NEVER WON. sorry but every dominant rider except Big Mig has pretty much the same personality makeup.
eddy and anquetil screwed riders out of victories just because they had personal issues with them, which was far more of a patron discipline than what LA did at last years TdF.

I think LA blew it last year. I think he should have done the Vuelta. He had the entire peloton shell shocked and if he could have re-peaked, IMHO it would have been his greatest shot at a double. maybe he's banking on the pro tour to keep other riders less Tour focused as well to improve his odds.

But how can you blame him for being a 1 trick pony? it's the way it is in cycling now. what other 'big races' did any of his main rivals win? he's not the only 'specialist'. Vino and Tyelr are the only 2 guys who've won majors and been in the hunt at GT's. there hasn't been a real double attempt since Pantani. Jan? 1 tricker as well. (unless you count Olympics)
when was the last good classics guy been a GT front runner?

I think this is why Basso is putting in a big Giro effort. His odds of winning have to be far higher than the TdF, I think he realizes he can't beat LA at this stage so it's better to have a GT win than a second. (besides being Italian). As for LA, he's American, his sponsors are American so he puts his effrt into the event that is known in America. He gets maximum return on his investment. Lame as it is, it does make good business sense.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> and the fact that GT's, you have the ability to make up for a 'bad day' where in classics you don't. It's what makes Merck's career so impressive. To win a classic you have to be 110% that day. To win a load, well just says how bad you really are.
> 
> as for the smugness, yes Poulidor was a nice guy. NEVER WON. sorry but every dominant rider except Big Mig has pretty much the same personality makeup.
> eddy and anquetil screwed riders out of victories just because they had personal issues with them, which was far more of a patron discipline than what LA did at last years TdF.
> ...



Yes, Poulidor didn't win, but he got many 2nd's with some modicum of _class_ at least.   Museeuw did win 2 TdF stages, but was never a big GT hope. I wonder if LA had concentrated more on Classics if he would have been able to pocket 2 or more GT stages? Maybe.

Vino would have had a hell of a chance last year if he had played. But how likely was it that Jan and the rest of Mobile would have gotten off their asses for him once Jan's hopes died? Let's not forget the value of the Postie's to LA, or any good team all pulling in the same direction with one great heave, without which he probably would never have won as many TdF's. 

Killer instinct? Aggression? Survival of the fittest and "screw you pal"? Sure, you need that to some extent to win in any sport. Then one day the race is over and you're off the bike. No need to be a swaggering d*ckhead then.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well from my experience*

LA was quite nice. I've heard all the trash about him but I can only go on what I know. he showed up and raced at a SoCal cx race w/ Tony Cruz and both were friendly, hung out with the fans, took pix, signed race #'s. he had a leaking rear tire (slow) and I offered up my rear wheel ( I don't race elite) to his wrench and they both thanked me after the race.
so I try to judge people from what I experience. from this instance (not enough to draw any huge conclusion) I'd say he was not an a$$hole, he could have showed up, raced, split and said nothing to anybody but he didn't. These guys are hard on their team, they are ruthless on themselves. I was watching a couple Merckx films this weekend and they were interviewing an ex-dom (who was now dom-ing for Gimondi) and he said, "no one can dom for Merckx for too long, he burns them out" and I noted how familiar it sounded.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Well, I've seen interveiws with Lance where he's blowing his own horn so much his ears must have popped. Even after several questions about other topics or riders he brings it back around to himself, never wanting to let you forget how wonderful he is, or how hard his struggle was with cancer, coming back to the peloton, etc. That's the kind of thing that's always bugged me about him.

OTOH, I'm sure he can be a decent chap when he wants to, and there were times when he was tolerable to me, almost likeable. Then it always comes back to the Lance Show. You know: Me, Me, and Me some more.

OK, admit it: since you'va actually met and ridden with him, you're a bit "starstruck" (I don't like the term here, but you kniow what I mean). I gotta admit, had I met him or one of the big dogs, and actually had a chance to spin a few miles with them, I'd overlook some things too. At least long enough to get outta there without bYtch-slapping guys like Hinault or McEwen!


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

sorry to drift further away from a celebration of Pantani but Poulidor's palmares are not at all bad for a man who never won the Tour (managed a Vuelta victory though and ended up on the podium, with a stage win at the age of 40):
1961	Milan - San Remo
1962	1 stage, Tour de France
1963	Flèche Wallone
Grand Prix des Nations
1964	Vuelta a España
1 stage, Vuelta a España
Criterium Nationale
1 stage, Tour de France
Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
1965	1 stage, Tour de France
2 stages, Vuelta a España
1966	Dauphiné - Libéré
Criterium Nationale
1 stage, Tour de France
1967	1 stage, Tour de France
1 stage, Vuelta a España
1968	Criterium Nationale
1969	Dauphiné - Libéré
1971	Catalan Week
Criterium Nationale
1972	Paris - Nice
Criterium Nationale
Critérium des As
1973	Paris - Nice
GP du Midi Libre
1974	1 stage, Tour de France

Winners can be arrogant, they can be gentlemen, too - they can ride to a strictly defined plan and crush the life out of a race or they can attack and bring some life to a race. Pantani was the kind of rider who could animate a race in a way that Armstrong himself might admit to not being capable of.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*no wasn't starstruck at all.*

and Ms Crow in everyday dress was just average. One rider who really impressed me was Zabel, total bike nut and great guy. He acted like the fred-bike geek that most of us are.
Pou-Pou was a great racer, and had fine Palmares but I bet he's still sad about not winning the Tour. All I'm saying is that lack of attitude may have cost him. He could have continued attacking a few times but he didn't and always seemed to let Anquetil back into the race.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> All I'm saying is that lack of attitude may have cost him. He could have continued attacking a few times but he didn't and always seemed to let Anquetil back into the race.


You could have a point there on Poulidor.


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

Bianchigirl said:


> sorry to drift further away from a celebration of Pantani but Poulidor's palmares are not at all bad for a man who never won the Tour (managed a Vuelta victory though and ended up on the podium, with a stage win at the age of 40):...
> 
> Winners can be arrogant, they can be gentlemen, too - they can ride to a strictly defined plan and crush the life out of a race or they can attack and bring some life to a race. Pantani was the kind of rider who could animate a race in a way that Armstrong himself might admit to not being capable of.


I'm not some bike racing history expert so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Pantani sort of forced to attack? Watching the 1998 TDF and 2000 TDF DVDs, I didn't get the impression he had a whole lot going for him other than the climbs. JU, LA and others took it to him pretty good in the TTs and throughout most of the 2000 TDF, Armstrong hung with him pretty good in the climbing stages. With the team he's had the past couple of years, it's not really up to LA to attack. 

Make the race exciting? For who? For you? I'm sure it's exciting to the riders, and it's not LA's fault the rest of the peleton won't ride. You can't really fault LA for the team's tactics, ****, they've been working, why stop? Maybe it's a fundamental difference b/w the Old World and the New. Some people care more about style than results; others=vice versa. It may not be "exciting" to watch him crush the competition in the Tour but you have to respect that he's pretty much won it every year before signing in for the prologue.

I concede your point re: LA's personality. He comes across as a single-minded automaton with TDF tunnel vision, but he's won the world's most prestigious "club ride" six times. I've never heard him say he's thinks he's the best racer in history and to claim such would be silly. I think he knows his place in bicycling history and this is the path he's chosen.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

Coolhand said:


> Thanks I stand corrected on the Mr. 60% (which is a scary number- Yikes!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you out of your mind? Did you even watch the 2000 tour? Pantani was THE attacker of that Tour. The only thing that made it memorable was Pantani's daring attacks. So what if he didn't always succeed and ended up abandoning? He was fantastic on Ventoux even if he was gifted the stage. As a fan who likes some excitement give me Pantani in good form any day. The guy was an exciting rider plain and simple.


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## bill105 (Mar 19, 2003)

Sintesi said:


> Are you out of your mind? Did you even watch the 2000 tour? Pantani was THE attacker of that Tour. The only thing that made it memorable was Pantani's daring attacks. So what if he didn't always succeed and ended up abandoning? He was fantastic on Ventoux even if he was gifted the stage. As a fan who likes some excitement give me Pantani in good form any day. The guy was an exciting rider plain and simple.


it would have been nice to see if he was that way without the syringe.


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

bill105 said:


> it would have been nice to see if he was that way without the syringe.



Who knows? I do know that that was his riding style from the beginning of his career. He was killing them in a '94 Giro video I have. Pantani and a couple guys would attack from 10k, he'd get away from those guys and then find himself reeled in by Indurain after a couple cols, Marco would latch on to Indurain & Co. and then attack again and win the stage. I really was a cool rider. If it was all dope then that's sad but then again the entire 90's was lousy with EPO.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*the Alpe D Huez TT settled it.*

no help from your doms, equal starting point. who got to the top first? though it didn't break Pantani's record, the clock started at a different locale. LA's climbing Dom finished what 5th overall? his team destroys the peloton down to a handful before he has to 'go'. 
no true climber has gotten away at the tour, why? pace is too high for them to get away.
Virenque only 'allowed' to go as he lost about 10 minutes plus the day after his polka dot exploit. Levi spoke about it, postals tempo was so high you were on the rivet just hanging on. problem is you have the fastest TTer and best climber (same guy) on the strongest, most disciplined team. why is everyone suprised? 
great attacks still happen in other GT's as pace is nowhere near the same. more dynamic and fun to watch (I miss it in the Tour) but I'm not going to knock a guy and his team for crushing their opposition. Other top GT guys didn't need a team, all they had to do was 'sit on' Lance as he 'sat on' his team. Funny how they all (but Basso, Kloden, Jan) just disappeared.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm not surprised by it, just kinda _sick of it._ (LA that is.)


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

wasn't this supposed to be a thread celebrating _Pantani_? One thing you can say about him - he was never, ever dull


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Bianchigirl said:


> wasn't this supposed to be a thread celebrating _Pantani_? One thing you can say about him - he was never, ever dull


Yes it is about Marco Pantani (typical RBR thread drift). I always had a lot of admiration for him. I could never get it quite into my head how he couild climb and attack like he did.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*not to point fingers*

but weren't you (BG) one of those comparing him to other riders forcing said drift?
yes, Marco, loved to watch that guy, just absolutely sell out on a climb.
that photo in this post with the wet sponge pretty much sums it up.
Liked him in Celeste the Best. We need another Mtn Agitator, but what I wonder, why are all the true Angles of the Mtns plagued with mental health issues? sorry, drift.


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> but weren't you (BG) one of those comparing him to other riders forcing said drift?
> yes, Marco, loved to watch that guy, just absolutely sell out on a climb.
> that photo in this post with the wet sponge pretty much sums it up.
> Liked him in Celeste the Best. We need another Mtn Agitator, but what I wonder, why are all the true Angles of the Mtns plagued with mental health issues? sorry, drift.


My knee-jerk is to think: something in common with the pain of climbing? Or the endorphin high that goes with it?

Not that TT's, cobbles/dirt, or long fast stages don't hurt!


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

they do seem more fragile, don't they - I doubt Mayo has the head to ever win big even though, god knows, he has that pure climber thing down pat - remember watching him attack and win the Classique des Alpes in stunning fashion. 

maybe they are by temperament more solitary - the greatest climbers have scored their greatest victories alone, they more than any other riders transform pain to victory.

sorry, drifting again...


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

and talking a load of drivel, dearie dearie me...

atp - probably guilty as charged


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*fragile*

look at them Gaul, disappears from the public and has to be dragged into his adoring public. Ocana - suicide, sorry brain fart - Banesto/ Indurain Dom Climber who died last year in a mental hospital. Pantani, the list goes on. 
maybe they have brain chem imbalances that only tearing the snot out of themselves helps. could climbing like demons just be a form of self medication? are they addicted to that post climb high?


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Not only the "climber's curse", (hey I think just I coined a new one!) but a cycling friend of mine mentioned that she's heard it said somewhere that "All [great/good/serious/dedicated/addicted] cyclists are running from something."

Hmm...

In my case, it has to be the ex-wife! Persona non grata!


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

*I Would Argue...*

That most people who do really great things are somehow kinda screwed up. Whether they be type-A to an extreme, meglo-maniacs, artists, desire for attention/acclaim, whatever, they all seem to suffer from something. Not just cycling: look at Prefontaine, Joplin, Van Gogh, any number of presidents/politicians, Mick Doohan, etc.

There's just something in their mental makeup that drives them to really separate themselves from the rest of the herd. Thank goodness their there or we'd live in a supremely bland world. Unfortunately, it's often their downfall, too.


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