# Lemond has opened his mouth about this years TdF...



## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

I don't know about Landis being "CLEAN".. he dominated everything except for the stage he suffered the bonk.. and even if your doping - your not immune to the bonk... so if he hadn't bonked - he would of road away with that stage also.

Landis almost made it look as easy as Basso/Giro... 


Are there any underlying implications against Armstrong in this?? :idea: hehehe 



http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/24/060724191235.mmwevu5p.html

Lemond hails 'best ever Tour', praises 'clean' Landis
Jul 24 3:16 PM US/Eastern
Email this story 

American cycling legend Greg Lemond hailed compatriot Floyd Landis's victory in the Tour de France, describing this year's edition of the race as "the best of all time.".

Lemond, a three-time Tour winner with victories in 1986, 1989 and 1990, said the drugs scandal which saw dozens of riders kicked out of the peloton before the race began had levelled the field and allowed a "clean" Landis to win.

"It was an incredible Tour," said Lemond. "The best of all time. It was like the 1980s where you had different guys dominating on different days. We haven't seen that sort of competition for years."

Lemond congratulated Tour organisers on their decision to bar teams implicated in the Spanish drug scandal from the race.

Among the riders to be prevented from taking part were Germany's Jan Ullrich and Italy's Ivan Basso, two of the riders among the favourites for the crown.

"I'm happy that Ullrich and Basso weren't allowed in," Lemond said. "Suddenly the guys in the background, guys who were probably doubting their own ability to be competitive, were able to come to the fore. That's very encouraging," he said.

Lemond had nothing but praise for Landis, the surprise winner of tour's yellow jersey. "He was one of my favourites before the race. He's clean and what's more, he's a great guy," he added.


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## R.Rice (Aug 23, 2004)

*Stretching it a bit......*



bas said:


> I don't know about Landis being "CLEAN".. he dominated everything except for the stage he suffered the bonk.. and even if your doping - your not immune to the bonk... so if he hadn't bonked - he would of road away with that stage also.
> 
> Landis almost made it look as easy as Basso/Giro...
> 
> ...


Care to point out an similarities between Landis' win of the TDF and basso's win of the Giro other than the final result being the same?

Basso road everyone off his wheel on every mountain stage of the Giro.He did huge,HUGE back to back efforts on consecutive mountain stages.He also managed,for a guy that supposedly doesn't ITT "well", to stay with a minute from Ullrich.A former world ITT champion who was also doping.

Landis didn't make it look easy IMO.He just stayed pretty consistent minus stage 17 where he went apeshizzit.


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## bikenmedic (Jul 14, 2005)

I remember watching Lemond at a race years ago. When he crossed the finish line well ahead of everyone else, instead of hanging out to sign autographs & the such he crawled directly into his van and left town.

Lemond's a jackhole.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

bikenmedic said:


> I remember watching Lemond at a race years ago. When he crossed the finish line well ahead of everyone else, instead of hanging out to sign autographs & the such he crawled directly into his van and left town.
> 
> Lemond's a jackhole.


I remember Lemond from about 2 dozen races years ago, one who always hung out to watch his dad in the vets race after he had lapped the field once or twice. Always socialized with other racers and fans. He worked the registration desk last month with my cousin at a charity century, she said he was totally cool and talked with her about Nevada City (her home town) for about 45 minutes. That's the Greg Lemond I remember. If you met the man and he was a prick to you, that's one thing. But to watch him drive off in a car hardly gives you the right to call him a "jackhole".


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*the horror.*



bikenmedic said:


> I remember watching Lemond at a race years ago. When he crossed the finish line well ahead of everyone else, instead of hanging out to sign autographs & the such he crawled directly into his van and left town.
> 
> Lemond's a jackhole.



if only he'd stuck around for "the such" it all could have been different.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2006)

> ..he dominated everything except for the stage he suffered the bonk..


I guess I watched a different tour. Landis didn't dominate. Lance/Disco dominated (in the past), Landis race a good tour, but wasn't strong enough to dominate (except the last stage of the Alps).


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## bikenmedic (Jul 14, 2005)

Fog,
When the race course is lined with people who came (out for the most part) only because Lemond was there, and he bails immediatly after he's done pedaling without saying Hi, goodbye, or even kiss my @ss I think that qualifies him....

To each his own, think what you want. You know what opinions are like, everyone has one. Maybe yours is bigger.....


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Lemond is getting nuttier than a Snickers bar. 

ut:


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

bikenmedic said:


> I remember watching Lemond at a race years ago. When he crossed the finish line well ahead of everyone else, instead of hanging out to sign autographs & the such he crawled directly into his van and left town.
> 
> Lemond's a jackhole.



Was that one of his comeback races where he did very poorly and sucked big time?

The guy was totally embarrassed dude and it was very difficult time for him. Didn't you watch the OLN special Fearless about him?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

No kidding. If he doesn't stop shooting his mouth off, people are going to forget he used to ride pretty well.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> No kidding. If he doesn't stop shooting his mouth off, people are going to forget he used to ride pretty well.


What did you guys read? How is praising Landis "shooting his mouth off"?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Tough friggin crowd here. Everyone's got a vendetta. Sad to see really. Lemond pays Landis the highest compliment and folks start taking potshots.

Nice of Bas to insinuate Landis is doping too.

francois


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## coldplay (Jul 25, 2004)

Personally I do not care for Lemond... actually not even a little bit! But what I read was nothing but a fine compliment to Floyd. Nuff said.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Ummm, Snickers!


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

epic said:


> What did you guys read? How is praising Landis "shooting his mouth off"?



It was a shot at the Armstrong years.

You missed it.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bas said:


> It was a shot at the Armstrong years.
> 
> You missed it.


where in the text you posted is there something you could interpret as being any sort of a shot at armstrong? he doesn't appear to be taking a shot at anyone, unless simply referring to another rider as clean is now equivalent to insulting LA.


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

francois said:


> Tough friggin crowd here. Everyone's got a vendetta. Sad to see really. Lemond pays Landis the highest compliment and folks start taking potshots.
> 
> Nice of Bas to insinuate Landis is doping too.
> 
> francois


I agree. When did it suddenly become fashionable to slam LeMond? I've met him - he's a nice guy. People form their opinions based on what the sensationalistic media spoon-feeds them - and they eat it like cake. Somebody talks for an hour and says one sentence that, by itself and taken out of context, can be sensationalized into selling newspapers / new shows, and everybody eats it right up.

Bunch o bandwagon lemmings. Better enjoy Landis now, until it becomes unfashionable!


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

*more from lemond*

seems decidedly not "nuttier than a Snickers bar" to me, but I'm not a Fanboy™....courtesy cyclingnews.com.
<br><b><i>Lemond comments on Landis win

by Mark Zalewski, North American Editor</i></b>

The American media have been desperately flipping through their Rolodexes to find expert analysis on the Tour win by Floyd Landis. ESPN's Cold Pizza tracked down the first American Tour winner, Greg Lemond, while he was vacationing with his family. When asked if the number of wins by Americans in the last twenty years is a trend, Lemond replied, "It's pure coincidence. We just had some talented individuals come into racing. But what Floyd did was amazing."

Lemond was also asked why it seems that the Americans that win seem to have to overcome great hurdles, with Lemond's hunting accident, Armstrong's cancer and now Landis' hip, "I think anybody who has had a setback... it shows your character," Lemond said. Lemond is also confident that Landis will be able to come back from his upcoming surgery, citing a colleague who had a hip replacement using a new technique, "He has the physiology to be a Tour de France winner, he did it, and I think he will win many more. I am optimistic he will be able to defend his title next year."

Lemond has certainly not hidden his feelings on Armstrong, and when asked who would win today between Landis, him and Armstrong, Lemond at first chuckled, "I am biased! I can't answer that, [laughs.]" But then Lemond got a little more serious. "Every race is different. The race changed dramatically this year. For me I am a strong anti-doping advocate. I think we are seeing a true Tour de France winner, someone who might have otherwise been cheated out of a win."

<u>When asked if he was saying Lance's wins were tainted, Lemond said, "I am not saying that. </u>It goes back to the historical norms, where people got tired and had bad days. It was common to have a bad day when I was racing. I have been waiting for this period since 1998… The French riders are competitive since 1998. They have a much harder dope testing in their country. Watching a race that shows the human drama. I believe you can do the TdF without drugs, you get tired, and the strongest win."


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

bikenmedic said:


> To each his own, think what you want. You know what opinions are like, everyone has one. Maybe yours is bigger.....


I get it, you're not a fan. And thanks for the personal attack, you'll make lots of friends here.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

So what if Lemond is right?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> I agree. When did it suddenly become fashionable to slam LeMond? I've met him - he's a nice guy. People form their opinions based on what the sensationalistic media spoon-feeds them - and they eat it like cake. Somebody talks for an hour and says one sentence that, by itself and taken out of context, can be sensationalized into selling newspapers / new shows, and everybody eats it right up.
> 
> Bunch o bandwagon lemmings. Better enjoy Landis now, until it becomes unfashionable!


I met him too- so what. Trek has run him out at various B and C level events for years. Like Gary Fisher it was hard to avoid him for quite a while. But at least Fisher was a hoot to talk too.

Did you _watch_ Fearless- he's getting to be a self-absorbed nut job. Do you read his comments he made about Lance and others "out to get him and his wife". *Classic* paranoid delusions. Even at his peak during the Tours, he was hardly a likable sort (his rants about the entire peleton conspiring against him hardly helped either). Now, when his fame is eclipsed so completely by Lance (the baseline cause for all of Lemond's jealousy and his palpable obsession) for on the bike stuff, his bike company failed, and was bought out on the cheap from Trek, then later he was completely replaced as the racing spokesman/image maker for the company (by Lance _yet again_- see where the unhealthy obsession is coming from?), and also missed out on the financial sucess later riders had (_again_ seeing Lance live the good life, he did not get himself), and it seems to have literally drove him more then a little bonkers. 

For the Lemond fan boys (the few still remaining), you need to separate what he did on the bike (and even take his version of that with a MAJOR grain of salt) with the train wreck he has become in the last ten years or so. 

Not sure why so many former elite level climbers seem to come to grief after their careers end, but it has gotten bad enough that Procycling and a few other mags have pointed out the trend.


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## lsthe3 (Jul 15, 2006)

Lemond is right! Folks this guys is a american cycling hero. So is Lance. Although its getting old seeing Lance and the 3 frat brothers (Lance, Matt, and Jake) travel around like their **** dont stink!


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## powerdan5 (Apr 27, 2006)

Can't the Lance-heads just jump on Tiger Woods bandwagon now and leave LeMond alone? The Nike clothes you bought are still good for following Tiger and all you'd have to do is trade in your Subaru and Trek Madone for a Buick.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> I met him too- so what. Trek has run him out at various B and C level events for years. Like Gary Fisher it was hard to avoid him for quite a while. But at least Fisher was a hoot to talk too.
> 
> Did you _watch_ Fearless- he's getting to be a self-absorbed nut job. Do you read his comments he made about Lance and others "out to get him and his wife". *Classic* paranoid delusions. Even at his peak during the Tours, he was hardly a likable sort (his rants about the entire peleton conspiring against him hardly helped either). Now, when his fame is eclipsed so completely by Lance (the baseline cause for all of Lemond's jealousy and his palpable obsession) for on the bike stuff, his bike company failed, and was bought out on the cheap from Trek, then later he was completely replaced as the racing spokesman/image maker for the company (by Lance _yet again_- see where the unhealthy obsession is coming from?), and also missed out on the financial sucess later riders had (_again_ seeing Lance live the good life, he did not get himself), and it seems to have literally drove him more then a little bonkers.
> 
> ...


I thought he claimed that his teammate reneged on a deal, not that the peleton was against him. I recall him being a popular rider with his peers, the press and public alike. Rode to win rather than just prepare for France.

LA wouldn't have the earning potential that he did without Lemond's trailblazing in the 80's & 90's. First rider to turn up with an attorney, first $1m contract, first US TdF winner, first US World Champion etc.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

epic said:


> What did you guys read? How is praising Landis "shooting his mouth off"?


It's his recent history of saying strange things. Stuff like Lance threatened to kill him, or his wife, or his dog, or something. Now he's blabbing on about who is clean and who isn't and making grand proclamations like he is the senior statesman of cycling. In no way do I want to state or imply that Landis is not clean, but how would Lemond have any idea? He doesn't know Landis. He doesn't know Ullrich or Basso. He's been out of the peloton for 15 years!


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

mohair_chair said:


> It's his recent history of saying strange things. Stuff like Lance threatened to kill him, or his wife, or his dog, or something. Now he's blabbing on about who is clean and who isn't and making grand proclamations like he is the senior statesman of cycling. In no way do I want to state or imply that Landis is not clean, but how would Lemond have any idea? He doesn't know Landis. He doesn't know Ullrich or Basso. He's been out of the peloton for 15 years!


And what exactly constitues clean in a clearly deluded mind......

"The best of all time", "it was like the eighties..." . Nice double bonus for Lemond, praise Landis while getting in a potshot against everyone who rode after......everytime this guy opens his mouth he has to get a lick in. 

Obviously he is a mind reader and Knows who is clean and Who is not. 

Lemond, the Santa Claus of doping knowledge.....


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*hmmmmm*



svend said:


> And what exactly constitues clean in a clearly deluded mind......
> 
> "The best of all time", "it was like the eighties..." . Nice double bonus for Lemond, praise Landis while getting in a potshot against everyone who rode after......everytime this guy opens his mouth he has to get a lick in.
> 
> ...


I do not know what to thibnk og Lemond. On one hand, he was an innovator and yes, he had the goods and could ride. HOWEVER, to say that thios TDF was just like the 80's because, I guess, the peleton was clean then? Well, golly, I think thats a bald faced whopper of a falsehood. WOW, the 80's, and clean riders? Yuh.

Bottom line, he hates Lance which everyone has their right to do if they so choose. However, I wonder what good old Geg would say if Landis was on his was to winnig TDF number 4 or 5 in a row. Well, gee, I guess we wouldnt be so clean anymore huh?

Its sad to see Greg become so bitter


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

ttug said:


> WOW, the 80's, and clean riders? Yuh.


No kidding, the eighties were the peak of doping in Swimming and Track and Field, not to mention the NFL, MLB and NHL. To say the peloton was clean in then or ever is laughable. 

The only things that have changed over the years are the substances and the precision.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

ultimobici said:


> I thought he claimed that his teammate reneged on a deal, not that the peleton was against him. I recall him being a popular rider with his peers, the press and public alike. Rode to win rather than just prepare for France.
> 
> LA wouldn't have the earning potential that he did without Lemond's trailblazing in the 80's & 90's. First rider to turn up with an attorney, first $1m contract, first US TdF winner, first US World Champion etc.


Nope- he even repeated those silly "the whole peloton was conspiring against me" claim on Fearless. Then he went into his usual anti-Hinault rants as well, but those are old news at this point. Hinault was conspiring against him, half his team was, all of the peloton was, Lance was too. See the pattern yet?

Don't recall that he was that "popular" with the mainstream press- he was more of a novelty. The US cycling press fawned over him predictibly enough- but the overseas cycling press was more balanced. As far as his peers- as far as I can tell- not so much. Heck- half his team wasn't even behind him for his first Tour.

Lemond's story has always been a one man's overwelming love affair with himself. As soon as people stopped listening to that story, he saw it as everyone else's fault but his. Honestly, his attention seeking behavior, combined with his paranoid tendancies make for a good laugh- but I can't believe every takes _anything_ he says seriously anymore. 

:skep:


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## slamy (Mar 15, 2004)

>>>Lemond is right! Folks this guys is a american cycling hero. So is Lance. Although its getting old seeing Lance and the 3 frat brothers (Lance, Matt, and Jake) travel around like their **** dont stink!<<<

Yeah, the way Armstrong has been acting this last year has made me want to vomit. Glad to see he's spending all this time with his kids. To be honest, if I had to decide between winning a ride with Landis or Armstrong, I'd ride with Landis. Ohh and if I hear Lance try and take more credit for Floyds win, I will get sick. Damn Lance, let the guy enjoy his time, you've had yours. Ohh and I would take a ride with Lemond before Armstrong too.


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## sirthx (Dec 23, 2005)

I gotta say, I worked in the entertainment industry for years, and frequently came in contact with some pretty big names including Academy Award winners. Being around these folks you can see the people who are very down to earth and extremely nice, but like anyone, they can have a bad day. I've heard countless stories about people who think so and so is an a**hole because he or she wouldn't sign an autograph, when I know 1st hand that the person in question is one of the nicest people around. So I take all these type comments with a grain of salt.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

I would rather ride/speak with Lemond over Landis, and Landis over Armstrong. Wait until Armstrong is no longer in the limelight. That will be a serious mental breakdown for him.

As far as doping is concerned, I think Lance was involved, but there is no proof anywhere, just a bunch of circumstantial stuff. I tried to read all of the post about it in the doping forum, but man that was really long. Of course, all of it was showing how Armstrong had been doping.

Now, Landis could have doped on this Tour, but I think it would have been a lot harder to do so because they can now detect EPO in urine samples. Of course, there could be some designer EPO out there that the new tests cannot detect. Quite honestly, I hate doping.

For those of you that do not think it happened in the 80's, how about the men's cycling track team at the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. Didn't a lot of those guys get busted and have to give back their metals?

What sucks is for those riders that didn't dope over the last seven years. They could have been the best cyclist and in the limelight if it wasn't for all the dopers. Pantani even got busted for doping. There should be huge penalties for those that get caught and there should be a long time period for samples to be test in so that testing technology can catch up to the doping technology. It sucks that the good guys have to be domestiques while the cheaters get to be the stars.


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

fabsroman said:


> It sucks that the good guys have to be domestiques while the cheaters get to be the stars.




Yeah, and the cheaters always get all the hot chicas too!! Damn cheaters and their cheatin' ways.......I love comedy Tuesday here on RBR


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## jason_haza (May 1, 2006)

*LeMond doesn't bother me....*

The only thing I'm curious about is that since the TDF has been so good for him over the years...why he isn't currently supplying any teams with 'rides. I mean, he was total innovator back in the day...would be cool to see a LeMond out there on the TDF again.

Has he had any bikes in the Tour over the years?? I could be wrong.


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

lsthe3 said:


> Lemond is right! Folks this guys is a american cycling hero. So is Lance. Although its getting old seeing Lance and the 3 frat brothers (Lance, Matt, and Jake) travel around like their **** dont stink!


Yep - I wonder if it sticks in LA's craw that people are saying this year's TDF was the best for years (even all of those LA years!)

I could live quite happily never hearing from LA or Lemond again.


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## Allez Rouge (Jan 1, 1970)

jason_haza said:


> The only thing I'm curious about is that since the TDF has been so good for him over the years...why he isn't currently supplying any teams with 'rides.


Probably because "he" these days is Trek, which bought out LeMond's bicycle company some years back.


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## gmcastil (Jan 8, 2006)

Lemond frames will likely never see pro racing. They don't make any of the ultra-lite carbon fibre flavored frames. I think that Trek is keeping that their classical geometry, steel, steel/ti, etc line, although some of the newer Lemond frames have some carbon bits. But, nothing like the Madone or the BMC.


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## bornin53 (Sep 3, 2005)

*Lemond Has All Carbon Frames Now*

Your comments were true as of the 2006 model year, however the 2007 line features very light all carbon frames.

See them here: http://www.lemondbikes.com/bikes/road_racing/triomphe_carbon/


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*nope*



gmcastil said:


> Lemond frames will likely never see pro racing. They don't make any of the ultra-lite carbon fibre flavored frames. I think that Trek is keeping that their classical geometry, steel, steel/ti, etc line, although some of the newer Lemond frames have some carbon bits. But, nothing like the Madone or the BMC.


They already have seen pro racing. The Navigators rode them and how do I know that? well a washed up guy named Marty Nothstein rode one. I do not believe they ride them now.


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## janix (Mar 24, 2006)

i still think Merckxx is the man. hehhee


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

svend said:


> And what exactly constitues clean in a clearly deluded mind......
> 
> "The best of all time", "it was like the eighties..." . Nice double bonus for Lemond, praise Landis while getting in a potshot against everyone who rode after......everytime this guy opens his mouth he has to get a lick in.
> 
> ...


exactly. who knows whether Landis or any of the other riders who rode this tour were "clean" or not. Tyler Hamilton was "clean" until it was discovered he wasn't. so were Basso and Ulrich. 

maybe the rest of the bunch are just hiding it better, or were smart enough to frequent doctors who have kept a lower profile.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

francois said:


> Tough friggin crowd here. Everyone's got a vendetta. Sad to see really. Lemond pays Landis the highest compliment and folks start taking potshots.
> 
> Nice of Bas to insinuate Landis is doping too.
> 
> francois


Probably hoped some doping thread-drift would blossum.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

rufus said:


> exactly. who knows whether Landis or any of the other riders who rode this tour were "clean" or not. Tyler Hamilton was "clean" until it was discovered he wasn't. so were Basso and Ulrich.
> 
> maybe the rest of the bunch are just hiding it better, or were smart enough to frequent doctors who have kept a lower profile.



You forgot Armstrong from all of his previous years.. just because he was the 'most tested athlete' doesn't mean he isn't guilty.. they can't test for everything..


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## Shockee (Feb 12, 2004)

fabsroman said:


> I would rather ride/speak with Lemond over Landis, and Landis over Armstrong..


lol - yeah, we'd ride with Lemond because he's the only one old and out of shape enough to keep up with!

I guess Lemond would be more open, philosophical and interesting nowadays also. The Lance and Landis show has big ambition at stake right now, so they can't afford to shoot the shhht with us in the peanut gallery.


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## rodster (Jun 29, 2006)

fabsroman said:


> For those of you that do not think it happened in the 80's, how about the men's cycling track team at the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. Didn't a lot of those guys get busted and have to give back their metals?


Blood doping wasn't illegal at that time. After the 84 Olympics it came to light that several riders had blood boosted. The option to boost came up close to the games so the classic "withdraw a pint a couple of months early then re-infuse on the eve of competition" was not an option. Family members donated the blood that was infused. Some riders did well, some others got sick and didn't do well. 

The first mention I recall of blood boosting was in relation to a Finnish middle distance runner named Lasse Viren that would have zero results prior to the Olympics then smash one and all during the games.

Oh, here's an interesting link:

http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/dopes.htm


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

blackhat said:


> if only he'd stuck around for "the such" it all could have been different.


I heard LeMond loves the such; he's both a giver and receiver.


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

gmcastil said:


> Lemond frames will likely never see pro racing. They don't make any of the ultra-lite carbon fibre flavored frames. I think that Trek is keeping that their classical geometry, steel, steel/ti, etc line, although some of the newer Lemond frames have some carbon bits. But, nothing like the Madone or the BMC.





jason_haza said:


> The only thing I'm curious about is that since the TDF has been so good for him over the years...why he isn't currently supplying any teams with 'rides. I mean, he was total innovator back in the day...would be cool to see a LeMond out there on the TDF again..


He recently brought up that exact point, and showed off his latest carbon bike when he was visiting one of his business interests here near Seattle. He lamented that he had concentrated on classicly styled bikes in the past, but that his new bike line was made with the intent of putting it under racers, and particular on the European Pro Tour. In fact, his new line sports some of the advancements in carbon handling from Trek that haven't even made it into any Trek bikes yet. He's obviously very happy with them.


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## The Armagh (Apr 23, 2006)

Can we get a comment from Lemond now? Seems he is fairly easy to find...


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

actually he is to be interviewed on ESPN news hot list this hour....(at least Pacific time)


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

So Lemond called it correct.. 





bas said:


> I don't know about Landis being "CLEAN".. he dominated everything except for the stage he suffered the bonk.. and even if your doping - your not immune to the bonk... so if he hadn't bonked - he would of road away with that stage also.
> 
> Landis almost made it look as easy as Basso/Giro...
> 
> ...


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Yes, he called it correctly if by "Landis is clean" he actually meant "Landis is an unrepentant doper" ... 

Just messing -- and yes, Landis aside, LeMond was right and in my eyes is still the greatest cyclist the US has ever produced!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

yeah, Lemond was the man-I doubt all the Lemond haters actually saw Lemond race. Lemond in his prime would have kicked LA's ass head-to-head. Also, unlike LA Lemond could win a group finish, like the 89 WC when he bridged up to Kelly and then beat him in the sprint. And Lemond raced the whole season, not just the tour.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Wow, Lemond actually beat Kelly in a sprint. I watched a Paris-Roubaix where Lemond and Kelly came to the finish in 2nd/3rd and Kelly beat Lemond pretty easily. I guess I can see Lemond having beat Kelly in a sprint if Kelly was having a bad day.

LA did race during the season, but he just didn't do too much that was notable during the season. It would have been nice to see LA race both the Giro and the Tour, but that never happened, and I wonder why. Why wouldn't he want to try to win as much as possible every year? I also wonder if the doping is what caused his cancer in the first place.

What I don't wonder about is whether or not he doped. My mind is made up that he did.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

the 89 WC is IMHO the finest finish I have ever witnessed!


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> Also, unlike LA Lemond could win a group finish, like the 89 WC when he bridged up to Kelly and then beat him in the sprint.


You make me wonder if you have seen any of LA's races, if you've never seen him win a group finish.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the 89 finish is on youtube. After the 89 tour (maybe best tour of modern era) struggle between Lemond and Fignon, the 89 WC was classic: Fignon trying to bridge to the leaders on the last climb, Lemond catching him and towing him up to the lead group, then Kelly bridging (on a 90+km/h descent in the rain). Awesome finish with Kelly, Lemond, Fignon, Rooks attacking each other during the last kms, with Lemond taking the sprint. 

While LA went to the tour as a protected rider on an American team, Lemond haters should remember he had to take on two French champions, first Hinault (on the same team), then Fignon. That kind of pressure was never something LA had to race under.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Yes, do watch the '89 WC finish, it was awesome. Greg has always been the most talented cyclist from the US, and Lance the most scientific. Both rocked in different eras, yet Lemond's races were always more fun to watch.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

Here's a letter from way back posted on cyclingnews.com written by a Tim McNamera:

*Mr. Mark Williams hypothesizes that Americans have adopted the One Race Policy and only focus on winning the Tour. This is a charge that was laid at the door of Greg LeMond with partial accuracy. After his gunshot wound and recovery, he simply was not able to maintain form to do more than focus on a small window of peak fitness. Naturally enough he chose the two most important races of the season: the Tour de France and the World Championships. Prior to his gunshot wound, however, an examination of LeMond's palmares reveals second places in Milan-San Remo and the Tour of Lombardy and possession of the Super Prestige award (predecessor to the World Cup) which reveals that he was a contender in races throughout the season for the first half of his career as a pro. Similarly, an examination of Lance Armstrong's palmares finds him in possession of two Classics, a World Championship, second places in no less than six World Cup races, etc. *


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

well, I don't remember LA taking the likes of a cipollini in a group sprint. Armstrong was more of a late attack sort of racer than someone who put a lot of fear in other riders in a sprint. Back in his amateur days, I even remember Chris Horner beating him in a field sprint...


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> well, I don't remember LA taking the likes of a cipollini in a group sprint. Armstrong was more of a late attack sort of racer than someone who put a lot of fear in other riders in a sprint. Back in his amateur days, I even remember Chris Horner beating him in a field sprint...


Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking of stage 5, Tour of Georgia, 2004:

<b>1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service presented by Berry Floor</b>
2 Ivan Dominguez (Cub) Colavita Olive Oil, presented by Bolla Wines 
3 Benjamin Brooks (Aus) Jelly Belly/Aramark 
4 George Hincapie (USA) US Postal Service presented by Berry Floor 
5 Massimiliano Mori (Ita) Domina Vacanze 
6 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 
7 Ben Jacques-Maynes (USA) Sierra Nevada Cycling 
8 Doug Ollerenshaw (USA) Jelly Belly/Aramark 
<b>9 Chris Horner (USA) Webcor Builders</b>
10 Charles Dionne (Can) Webcor Builders 
11 Gordon Fraser (Can) Health Net Presented by Maxxis 
12 Ciaran Power (Irl) Navigators Insurance  
13 Glen Mitchell (NZl) Sierra Nevada Cycling 
14 David Clinger (USA) Domina Vacanze 
15 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 
16 Ivan Ravaioli (Ita) Barloworld-Androni Giocattoli 
17 John Lieswyn (USA) Health Net Presented by Maxxis 
18 Christopher Baldwin (USA) Navigators Insurance 
19 Viatcheslav Ekimov (Rus) US Postal Service presented by Berry Floor 
20 Tim Larkin (USA) Ofoto/Lombardi Sports 
21 Antonio Bucciero (Ita) Saeco-Saunier Duval 
22 Mikhail Timochine (Rus) Landbouwkrediet-Colnago 
<b>23 Mario Cipollini (Ita) Domina Vacanze</b>
24 Nieko Biskner (USA) Ofoto/Lombardi Sports 
25 Chris Wherry (USA) Health Net Presented by Maxxis 
26 Imanol Ayestaran Odriozola (Spa) Webcor Builders 
27 Juan Jose Haedo (Arg) Colavita Olive Oil, presented by Bolla Wines


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

now that was a piece of research-nice work finding both Horner and Cipo in there behind LA! Gotta give credit where it's due...


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

My research doesn't show the same thing. When I plug the Tour of Georgia into Google, I get this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/apr04/tdgeorgia04/?id=results/stage5

Is this the same Tour of Georgia stage 5 that we are talking about, because it doesn't show LA winning the stage. I'll look some more though.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking of stage 5, Tour of Georgia, 2004:
> 
> <b>1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service presented by Berry Floor</b>
> 2 Ivan Dominguez (Cub) Colavita Olive Oil, presented by Bolla Wines
> ...



BTW, Cipo did NOT like Brasstown!


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Mohair,

I will assume that you were referring to stage 3 of the Tour of Georgia and this thread:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/apr04/tdgeorgia04/?id=results/stage3

If you read the article on stage 3, you will find that the stage wasn't a sprinter's dream, so I am not too surprised that LA won this one. Kind of like LA winning a 3 or 4 man sprint after climbing Alpe D'Huez.

LA also ended up winning the Tour of Georgia on overall GC, but by only 24 seconds over Jens Voight.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

fabsroman said:


> Mohair,
> 
> I will assume that you were referring to stage 3 of the Tour of Georgia and this thread:
> 
> ...


Kind of like Alpe D'Huez, except Dominguez and Ben Brooks came in 2nd and 3rd. Something tells me it wasn't the most decisive finish of all time. (end sarcasm)

The point here is twofold: no one is arguing that Armstrong was a superior bunch sprinter. That would be ludicrous. What we are arguing is that he could finish off a small group, ala Lemond in the 89 world championships. If I remember correctly it was around 10 guys coming into that finish. One would assume that LA has the sprinting chops to win races like that...he has shown it in decisive TdF stages and in his previous life as a classics rider.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

deleted, infor was already given


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

SilasCL said:


> Kind of like Alpe D'Huez, except Dominguez and Ben Brooks came in 2nd and 3rd. Something tells me it wasn't the most decisive finish of all time. (end sarcasm)
> 
> The point here is twofold: no one is arguing that Armstrong was a superior bunch sprinter. That would be ludicrous. What we are arguing is that he could finish off a small group, ala Lemond in the 89 world championships. If I remember correctly it was around 10 guys coming into that finish. One would assume that LA has the sprinting chops to win races like that...he has shown it in decisive TdF stages and in his previous life as a classics rider.


Exactly. My point was that Lance would contest group sprints when he wanted to. He didn't do it very often after 1996, but he did it. In the 2004 TDF, he was an animal on a couple of stages. He wasn't going against sprinters, but he was contesting group sprints, and winning. The finale of stage 17 that year was one of the best stage finishes I've ever seen. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage17


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Due to his off season habits Lemond also HAD to ride a lot of other races. Sort of a scaled down prototype for the early season woman's turbo saddle fat Jan to come.

Lemond was certainly an anomaly in cycling. A spoiled rich kid from the US in the toughest sport in the world (and in Europe one of the most blue collar too). Lance might never have taken up cycling and we certainly wouldn't have OLN/VS/ESPN/ABC/NBC coverage to complain about over the years since without Lemond paving the way.


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## Guest (May 8, 2007)

chuckice said:


> BTW, Cipo did NOT like Brasstown!


Lol - not exactly a sprinters paradise!


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

wipeout said:


> Greg has always been the most talented cyclist from the US, and Lance the most scientific.


I don't know about this... to start, when talking about LA, I am assuming he wasn't doping, or the conversation is over- b/c if he doped then no one knows his real potential (or lack there of.) *IF* LA wasn't a doper, I have heard the mantra that he is on of the the most naturally gifted athletes out there- the USA Olympic guys do some test on tons of athletes and LA is supposedly in a league of his own... I hate LA, but if he is clean you have to give him tons of credit. I think he was more scientific and more talented then Lemond. 



> Both rocked in different eras, yet Lemond's races were always more fun to watch


I hate watching LA race- I think watching a bunch of juniors race with flat tires is more fun then one of his calculated racing strategies.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Sorry, but Armstrong's testing numbers are not particualrly impressive. His Vo2Max is 83.8 mL/kg/min. Indurain is 88, and Lemond is 92.5. Talent-wise, Lemond was a more naturally gifted stage racer, coming in third in his first tour at the age of 23. LA's Tours before his 99 victory were unremarkable in terms of GC and his most famous moment prior to 99 might have been when Indurain caught and passed him during a time trial. 

The big difference is that Lemond never fully recovered his pre-injury form, while LA obviously became a better GC stage racer after his sickness. Considering Lemond won his first tour in 86, and would have won in 85 if he hadn't been an American under a Draconian system, he likely could have 87 and 88 easily as Delgado and Roche were never close to his abilities. 

In terms of more scientific, Lemond was more innovative than Armstrong (Lemond's use of heart monitor, his approach to training as per his book). Lemond also attempted to change the way cyclists prepare for the Tour, but was unable to do so as the system in place then demanded a cyclist ride the classics and the giro prior to the tour, something Armstrong never did. 

Armstrong also had the benefit of a strong team built for (by) him for the tour. Lemond never had that and was on weak teams for his 89/90 victory. He never was protected like Armstrong was. In 91, when EPO had changed the tour, it was Lemond who had to chase down all the action in the first few weeks. By the time he got to the Alps he had nothing left from it.

I also believe Lemond raced clean-maybe the last clean rider to win the tour.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

chuckice said:


> BTW, Cipo did NOT like Brasstown!


wow, you learn something new everyday..


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Kestrel,

You and I assume the opposite way. When talking about LA, I assume that he was doping just because it seems nearly impossible for him to consistantly beat all these other guys if they were doping. It is much easier for me to believe that he was doping, than he wasn't. Heck, I thought he was doping many years ago, even before all this stuff with Puerto, but now there isn't much that will change my mind.

At the end of the day, I really like Lemond. Also, lets all remember that Lemond won the Tour against Fignon with the help of science. On the last stage of the race, a short time trial, he used a bunch of scientific gadgets to help him get 50+ seconds out of Fignon. I truly thought the Tour was Fignon's and was suprised and happy that Lemond won. To think what could have been if his brother in-law didn't shoot him while they were turkey hunting. Exactly how that could have happened, I have no idea.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> I also believe Lemond raced clean-maybe the last clean rider to win the tour.


Steve, excellent points, one and all. I'm of the opinion that he would have been a 5 time winner had it not been for the accident.

Side story from the 89 tour: On the second to the last climb on stage 16, Fignon was in trouble several kms from the top and was just about to get dropped. Lemond saw (and Hampsten will confirm) that Fignon grabbed onto a motorcycle for about 20 to 30 seconds which allowed him just enough recovery to stay in contact with the lead group to the summit. He would have been dropped with no support as none of his team were in the front 20 when they crested. Lemond missed a feed in the valley and went into the final climb to Briançon short of calories. Fignon attacked taking the eventual winner Pascal Richard with him and Lemond stayed with them as long as he could but ended up loosing the jersey on the day. Fignon told the press that he took back the jersey to restore its honor, that it should lead from the front. Lemond confronted him the next day and told him tokeep his mouth shut until Paris or Lemond and others would tell the press about the tow. Fignon hardly spoke a word out of the peleton for the next week and actually spit into a camera lens when they arrived in Paris the night before the final time trial.

Lemond was at the the Tour de Cure in Napa on Sunday but left early in the morning because his mother was admitted to the hospital in critical condition. I've been emailing friends of friends who know the family but haven't heard anything back. My 4 year old was looking forward to reminding him that he won three yellow jerseys ("Erwich Zabow" has won 6 green jerseys, then brain washing continues...)


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Why wouldn't the motorcycle have just stopped, unless the driver/rider didn't know Fignon was holding on?


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

fabsroman said:


> Why wouldn't the motorcycle have just stopped, unless the driver/rider didn't know Fignon was holding on?


My guess is it was a Frenchman wanting to keep his country's favorite from gapping in the tour. Lemond said there was a lot of it going on in the mid 80s (mostly hanging onto team cars) and race coordinators were starting to crack down.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

fabsroman said:


> Kestrel,
> 
> You and I assume the opposite way. When talking about LA, I assume that he was doping just because it seems nearly impossible for him to consistantly beat all these other guys if they were doping.


I know this is a small point, but let me clarify: For the sake of an argument about Lemond vs LA, one would have to assume LA wasn't doping. Otherwise, there is no argument, LA would be a cheater and I wouldn't have any opinion on what the prick's accomplishments are. 




> Also, lets all remember that Lemond won the Tour against Fignon with the help of science.


Upon further reflection, I agree with this that Lemond was probably more scientific then LA in his racing. I think that a better word to describe Lance is strategic. Lance took the TdF from a one month race to a 12 month race, and began a strategic plan to win that race that no other rider has done since. I think Lemond was required to race the Giro, so he couldn't specialize for one race. However you do have to give credit to Lance for what he did off the bike for the race. He positioned himself on the team, and with the sponsors to accomplish what he wanted. Throughout the year, he strong- armed a team and sponsors for his personal gain like no one has before. Some might disagree with his actions, but he got what he wanted.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*really*



Kestreljr said:


> I know this is a small point, but let me clarify: For the sake of an argument about Lemond vs LA, one would have to assume LA wasn't doping. Otherwise, there is no argument, LA would be a cheater and I wouldn't have any opinion on what the prick's accomplishments are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lemond rode the Giro to get in shape for the TDF.

He was not the most disciplined rider in the off season and this was by his own admission. HOWEVER, Greg had enormous talent, no matter how bitter and mealy mouthed he has become in his post racing career.....

As to LA, I liked to watch him race just like Greg. Greg had another TDF and gave it away because he waited for Hinault on a mountain when he should have ridden away. Thats on Greg.

As to LA, lets just watch the parade for another year and see who else gets busted.


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