# Hamilton Natl Champ in SC in a photo finish...



## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

:cryin: :mad2:


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## 1stmh (Apr 7, 2007)

I was pleased he won. He was outnumbered with 3 Garmin riders plus Louder and himself, and thought he rode really well to win. Good for him.

I know many will dislike him winning b/c of his past. But he served his penalty. Everyone deserves a second chance.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

He's a cheat and a liar...showing no remorse for any of this...


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

chuckice said:


> He's a cheat and a liar...showing no remorse for any of this...


and they say men lack depth atmo.
sheesh.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Sure he served 2 years, 4 years ProTour...but you've got to award him lifetime for stupidity of his defense.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

I'm in the Ugh camp.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Spunout said:


> Sure he served 2 years, 4 years ProTour...but you've got to award him lifetime for stupidity of his defense.


You might want to actually read that defense before passing judgement.


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## velomonkey (Jul 8, 2003)

His twin got second, or did his twin win and he was last.

Too bad he never lived up to what he could have been.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

velomonkey said:


> Too bad he never lived up to what he could have been.


+1. So much for being good enough to compete against lance after leaving his side.

I wonder how it feels going from winning a stage in the Tour, 2nd at the Giro, and riding in nearly majestic places...

...to riding crits in the US, with the occasional no-name tour or one day USPRO road race.


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

I bag on him more for being on Rock Racing. Ugh.

But it sounds like G-C was turning the screws on him today and took it to 'em.

//would rather have seen Pate win...


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## velomonkey (Jul 8, 2003)

iliveonnitro said:


> +1. So much for being good enough to compete against lance after leaving his side.
> 
> I wonder how it feels going from winning a stage in the Tour, 2nd at the Giro, and riding in nearly majestic places...
> 
> ...to riding crits in the US, with the occasional no-name tour or one day USPRO road race.


Aside from seeing Tyler in a Rock Racing kit (it's worse than seeing Jordon in a Wizards uniform - and I don't like BBall) the oddest thing I ever saw was Landis staying at my hotel while the tour was going on last year. Essentially it was one year after he won and the guy was out peddling his case and his book. He came riding up, dropped his bike off to the valet and stopped to talk to me. This was at the W in LA and it was really strange.

Now to see Tyler going to do US crits, it's just strange, sad and pathetic. I guess this victory today is something, but it would have been so much cooler had he lived up to what was coming.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

I'm no Tyler fan, but he's served his time. If he won clean then he earned the victory, end of story.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*This wasn't...*



velomonkey said:


> Aside from seeing Tyler in a Rock Racing kit (it's worse than seeing Jordon in a Wizards uniform - and I don't like BBall) the oddest thing I ever saw was Landis staying at my hotel while the tour was going on last year. Essentially it was one year after he won and the guy was out peddling his case and his book. He came riding up, dropped his bike off to the valet and stopped to talk to me. This was at the W in LA and it was really strange.
> 
> Now to see Tyler going to do US crits, it's just strange, sad and pathetic. I guess this victory today is something, but it would have been so much cooler had he lived up to what was coming.


This wasn't US crit championships, this was the road championships in Greenville, SC.

I'm in the club of I had berated Hamilton for his doping. The man served his suspension, and got onto another team, and now he's winning races again. Good for him. Doesn't matter one bit to me whether he "confessed" or not, a doper is a doper no matter what they say after. I never understand why folks ALWAYS give Millar a pass, but for some reason, Hamilton is bad goods. They both doped. Millar doped to win the world championship, and had he not stashed a used ampule in his apartment, would have gotten away with it, and nobody would have ever known. That being said, they both served their time, and now they're both riding again. The man deserves to race again, and he is, and he won today. It's a good day for him. And it's a good day for Rock Racing. I say they celebrate, and I'm sure that they are.

Oh, and I would hazard to guess that most of the current Hamilton haters are the same folks who were peddling the "Believe Tyler" business back when he first got busted, and were mad because they got duped.


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## cycledog81 (Jan 8, 2008)

Dear Whiners & Tyler Haters,

Please enjoy that plate of Crow with a little side of Chipolte sauce........
Give him credit, took a lot of Sh** from everyone and he has made a remarkable comeback.
Garmin blew their chance had nearly double the starters of other teams, had 3of 5 in final selection and Tyler still beat them.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

coop said:


> It's not like he killed or raped anybody.


He killed Tugboat by swearing on the dog's immortal soul that he didn't dope.


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

*Millar vs. Hamilton*

I think what both did is disgusting, but Millar did eventually admit to what he did (first he denied when Cofidis started imploding, then was told he was implicated too, then admitted it when the cops found the vial of used EPO).

Tyler on the other hand was caught but started coming up with all of these ridiculous excuses. Didn't he initially float the idea that maybe he had had surgery that required a transusion between the '04 Tour and the Oly Games? Two problems with that: (1) 99% of all surgical procedures do not require transfusions, but if you have one that does, you ain't getting back on the bike for a lonnnngggg time. (2) If he did have a transfusion for medical reasons, just give up the medical records. Same thing with the "vanishing twin." We're to believe that this happened 30+ years ago in his mother's womb but shows up years later in ONE blood test. If there were a vanishing twin, wouldn't it show up in ALL of his tests? 

In either one of those were actually true, he could have pretty easily proven his innocence, but by floating all of this crap without a shread of evidence to support it, he sure looks guilty.

My theory is that virtually every professional athlete in the world is doping. I think it's less about winning than about keeping a job making pretty good to very good money when most don't really know how to do anything else. If they're all doing it, and they all know that everybody is doing it, you can understand why the few who did get caught are usually pretty indignant about it.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

That mean's absolutely nothing after you serve your time. Unless its proven he still dopes then the correct term is "former doper."


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## SRV (Dec 26, 2006)

Speedi Pig said:


> I think what both did is disgusting, but Millar did eventually admit to what he did (first he denied when Cofidis started imploding, then was told he was implicated too, then admitted it when the cops found the vial of used EPO).


This is a good example. Why should anyone get credit for admitting to doping when they only admit it in the face of overwhelming evidence? To me, this is not better than denying it until the end a la Hamilton. I say congrats Tyler!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Knock off the personal insults everyone. If your post got caught is the cross fire, feel free to repost your thoughts absent the name calling and other behaviors.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Tyler has done his time and deserves to have a ride....but he certainly did more then just say "I didn't dope" He create an absurd defense that made the entire sport look like a joke. He duped a bunch of suckers out of thousands of dollars. His fraud was vast and thus makes it hard to feel good for his achievement.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

asgelle said:


> You might want to actually read that defense before passing judgement.


You may want to read these before you "Believe Tyler"


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Miller article..*

There's a great article/interview with David Millar in Rouleur magazine. I've never been a Millar fan, but after reading that article, I like the guy.. Not saying what he did was right, but it's interesting to see what he's doing now to help the sport and help catch dopers..


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## mavicwheels (Oct 3, 2007)

*Tyler, Millar, Ulrich, Zabel, Riis and countless others*

As far as I am concerned, the man served his time, let him get on with his life. "If you want forgiveness, you must be willing to forgive those who have trepassed against."
J. Christ


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

mavicwheels said:


> As far as I am concerned, the man served his time, let him get on with his life. "If you want forgiveness, you must be willing to forgive those who have trepassed against."
> J. Christ


True enough, kinda hard to "believe" though.....


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

Why was this posted in the "Doping Forum". Tyler served his time, he won this race clean. Untill he is busted again, him winning a race shouldnt go right to the DF. Should have been posted in "pro cycling". If he were to fail a test post race....move it here.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*'served his time' my a***

I threw up in my mouth when I read the results. I'm thoroughly disgusted. With not only Tyler but also all those who have no understanding of what it means to be ethical.


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

piano said:


> I threw up in my mouth when I read the results. I'm thoroughly disgusted. With not only Tyler but also all those who have no understanding of what it means to be ethical.


Tyler handled his being busted poorly. That was 3 years ago. If he is now racing clean, what is he doing un-ethicaly? He was one of three riders randomly tested before the race. If he is racing dirty, he will be caught. I don't care for Tyler, but if he is now clean, let the guy earn a living.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*My thoughts*

I gonna start by saying that I think Tyler is now racing clean. I have no proof of this, just my hunch. Heck, I'm not sure that he could even afford to cheat....that stuff ain't cheap. 

I will also say that I think that, if this is true, that we all need to check our heads for why we still my dislike him. I get it. He cheated. I get it, he disgraced professional cycling. I get it, he hasn't ever come clean and admitted it. Unfortunately, it's what the culture of cycling does to these guys. From the outside we view the bizarre behaviour and shake our heads. On the inside, it's what's been done for decades so this is what he does. It's who he is. That doesn't make it "right" but it does help to explain why so many of these guys cheat and take up irrational defenses again and again. I would say that if you're going to get frustrated with ex-dopers winning, you need to find another sport to be a fan of. 

Let's let a 38 year old guy have his props for winning the Natl. RR title. Let's assume that he's out to show everyone that he can still race and succeed at a top (or near top) level after the crap he put himself through.

BT


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

True, Tyler has done his time (though he still has a couple of weeks before he could race with a Pro Tour team again, doesn't he?) and legitimately won the race. Someone cited a biblical example about forgiveness. Christ is willing to forgive all IF you ask for forgiveness and admit what you did. Albeit with varying degrees of coercion, Millar, Zabel, and Riis all admitted their guilt. Tyler never has.

If you're still happy with the race result, keep in mind that for the next year we have a proven, unrepentant cheat out their wearing the stars and stripes, Captain America if you will, when their are many people in the world who are not real happy with the United States. I'm not trying to throw a political angle on the issue, just stating facts and what some may perceive.

Perhaps Tyler is finding that though he has served his "legal" sentence from the sport's governing body, that punishment from the court of public opinion is far harsher. And there's nothing wrong with that.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

chuckice said:


> :cryin: :mad2:


Where's the photo?

and how did this end up in doping forum?

Congrats to Tyler..Definitely a long way to come back and win something finally.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

bas said:


> Where's the photo?
> 
> and how did this end up in doping forum?
> 
> Congrats to Tyler..Definitely a long way to come back and win something finally.


The mods moved it here from Pro Cycling.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2....php?id=/photos/2008/aug08/USPRO08/USPRO082/1


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## kretzel (Aug 1, 2007)

Dang this means Rock Racing can work their fashion design magic on 2 stars & stripes jerseys. 

Michael Ball has to be feeling pretty good right about now. Personally I appreciate the color & entertainment value he & Rock Racing have brought to the sport. Now his team has 2 nat'l championships to go with it. Whoda thunk it? 

Props to Tyler. 3 spots behind him all from the same team and he still takes the win - pretty wild.


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

Congratulations to Tyler. Honestly, who here is so ethically and morally pure that they wouldn't grant their fellow man a second chance? He did his time, spent all his possibly ill-gotten gains on legal fees, and somehow returned to a high level of success, in all likelihood riding clean. 

I'm sure he wishes he'd never doped. Failing that, I'm sure he probably wishes he would have confessed, quietly served his time and hung on to his money.

He was one of my favorite riders before his case, and believe me I was stunned. Frankly it pretty much turned me off to the whole deal (and Landis/Basso sealed it.). I'm slowly coming back to pro cycling, but with a skeptical eye.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Speedi Pig said:


> Albeit with varying degrees of coercion, Millar, Zabel, and Riis all admitted their guilt. Tyler never has.


 There is the important point. People seem to feel that a cheater is somehow redeemed if they admit to their crime. Every rider that has confessed did so after being caught was a forgone conclusion (Zabel carefully admitted to using EPO just outside the time limit in which he could be sanctioned, lucky for his long career). No cyclist that I am aware of has *ever* admitted to cheating without being caught first. These are not confessions, they are empty attempts to retain their images and improve their chances of signing a contract after their suspension is up, and in seems to work.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

davidka said:


> There is the important point. People seem to feel that a cheater is somehow redeemed if they admit to their crime. Every rider that has confessed did so after being caught was a forgone conclusion (Zabel carefully admitted to using EPO just outside the time limit in which he could be sanctioned, lucky for his long career). No cyclist that I am aware of has *ever* admitted to cheating without being caught first. These are not confessions, they are empty attempts to retain their images and improve their chances of signing a contract after their suspension is up, and in seems to work.


Not sure if redeemed would be the correct word, but it certainly puts them higher up the moral food chain then Tyler. 

There is a huge difference between the 4 year scam Tyler has perpetuated and what David Millar or Zabel have done.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Heh. Any TH thread gets moved to the doping forum. Enough Said.


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## cycledog81 (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm sure this will get me ousted here, but what kind of moron moderator does take take to move this to a doping forum ? If you moved every post that contained a convicted doper to this forum then you would kill your "pro cycling" forum for good. Fairly obvious that our moderator sees the name "Hamilton" and it's automatic move. Maybe Dr. Dobson and is Focus on the family group is doing moderation for this forum. 
Tyler won........accept it and give him the credit he deserves. He was out numbered by a Tour team and was aggressive and out smarted the rest of them.


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## Lundquist77 (Jun 25, 2008)

Convicted Doper Hamilton also dissed Rock Racing sponsor De Rosa by riding a FUJI to the National title. I wish they would have stripped the wimpy little dork's gold medal from Athens.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Convicted doper. Liar. No remorse. Woe is me and my vanishing twin. Zero ethics. Credit to him for actually pulling it off but him in the Natl Champ jersey disgusts me.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

davidka said:


> No cyclist that I am aware of has *ever* admitted to cheating without being caught first. These are not confessions, they are empty attempts to retain their images and improve their chances of signing a contract after their suspension is up, and in seems to work.


I'll make you aware. 

A. Matt Decanio in around 2003.

You know what happened to him? He was marginalized and threatened by people like FL, Dave Z, and CVDV.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Bry03cobra said:


> Tyler handled his being busted poorly. That was 3 years ago. If he is now racing clean, what is he doing un-ethicaly? He was one of three riders randomly tested before the race. If he is racing dirty, he will be caught. I don't care for Tyler, but if he is now clean, let the guy earn a living.


What if you were one of the victims who contributed to his fraudulent "Believe" defense? What's the statute of limitations on fraud?


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

lookrider said:


> I'll make you aware.
> 
> A. Matt Decanio in around 2003.
> 
> You know what happened to him? He was marginalized and threatened by people like FL, Dave Z, and CVDV.


I'll add another, and a world champion for that matter albeit not on the road;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Chiotti

Voluntarily admitted his guilt in doping and relinquished his world title way after the fact for no reason other than his own conscience. Don't say it's impossible for a rider to come clean under zero duress. This example proves that it is possible to have the balls to do it.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Speedi Pig said:


> True, Tyler has done his time (though he still has a couple of weeks before he could race with a Pro Tour team again, doesn't he?) and legitimately won the race. Someone cited a biblical example about forgiveness. Christ is willing to forgive all IF you ask for forgiveness and admit what you did. Albeit with varying degrees of coercion, Millar, Zabel, and Riis all admitted their guilt. Tyler never has.
> 
> If you're still happy with the race result, keep in mind that for the next year we have a proven, unrepentant cheat out their wearing the stars and stripes, Captain America if you will, when their are many people in the world who are not real happy with the United States. I'm not trying to throw a political angle on the issue, just stating facts and what some may perceive.
> 
> Perhaps Tyler is finding that though he has served his "legal" sentence from the sport's governing body, that punishment from the court of public opinion is far harsher. And there's nothing wrong with that.


Valverde was linked to Puerto (just like most pro cyclists at the time) with pretty overwelming evidence, the Spanish cycling federation just never took any action and now he's out winning right and left in the Spanish national champions jersey.

You guys really need to give the guy a break. This is pretty trivial, after all we're talking about a positive doping test during a time when it's generally accepted that most riders were doping. On or off dope, Tyler is a more talented cyclist and better racer than most and in my opinion the good that he has done bringing awareness to MS and helping people outweighs the stupid mistakes he made in his cycling career.

The probable reason for his not admitting to doping is that he doesn't want to lose the Olympic medal. If he admits to doping and gets stripped of the title, Ekimov moves into first place. Tyler and Eki raced together for years on USPS and probably knew each others routine cover to cover. Do you guys remember after Tyler tested positive the Russian federation wanted to take action against him but Eki didn't. It's litterally the same situation as the 1996 Tour. You strip the winner of his title, but how can you be sure the guy in 2nd was clean...or 3rd, 4th, etc. for that matter?


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> You may want to read these before you "Believe Tyler"


There you go again. The opposite of accepting a defense is not to believe in innocence. It's subtle, but by working at it, one can comprehend this.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

bigpinkt said:


> Not sure if redeemed would be the correct word, but it certainly puts them higher up the moral food chain then Tyler.
> 
> There is a huge difference between the 4 year scam Tyler has perpetuated and what David Millar or Zabel have done.


 Circlip is right, I forgot about Chiotti. DeCanio is a nutter...

I don't agree that the confessions of others (outside of the above) is a moral higher ground. They are not sincere confessions, they were only attempts to return to their profession sooner and for more money and they did not give the authorities anything (sources, other riders)to help catch more dopers. I see no guilt or remorse in their actions, just an agent/manager whispering in their ears but if those confessions make you feel better about them then they were obviously successful in their attempts.

To me the only difference was 2 years of more gainful employment. They all cheated the same.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

I wonder why he changes bikes so much. Just a few weeks ago he was riding a KirkLee (awesome) bike. I've never seen him on a DeRosa.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

davidka said:


> No cyclist that I am aware of has *ever* admitted to cheating without being caught first.


Frankie Andreau. Admitted it and was hammered for it by legions of Lance fans who somehow thought it made their guy look bad.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

davidka said:


> Circlip is right, I forgot about Chiotti. DeCanio is a nutter...
> 
> I don't agree that the confessions of others (outside of the above) is a moral higher ground. They are not sincere confessions, they were only attempts to return to their profession sooner and for more money and they did not give the authorities anything (sources, other riders)to help catch more dopers. I see no guilt or remorse in their actions, just an agent/manager whispering in their ears but if those confessions make you feel better about them then they were obviously successful in their attempts.
> 
> To me the only difference was 2 years of more gainful employment. They all cheated the same.


So there confessions were not sincere but Tyler's 4 years of lying are? 

If you do not see any guilt or remorse in Millar, Andreau, Chiotti, etc. then it is because you choose not to. Tyler has shown none of either. 

What really sucks about Tyler is he is a good guy, something that is very rare in the Pro Peloton. For every one Tyler there are 20 Marty Jemison.


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

Lundquist77 said:


> Hamilton also dissed Rock Racing sponsor De Rosa by riding a FUJI to the National title.


I wonder if Fuji is sponsoring RR next year. Toyota-United is gone after this year, Fuji is located in Philadelphia, maybe ball met with Fuji at the Philly race in June about a 09 sponsorship. A RR/Fuji sponsorship would make sense. US team, US bike. DeRosas are hard to come by here in the states, Fuji has nice mid/low range road bikes. Those are the buyers who would buy based on what a team rides. Many casual cyclists are rollin on Treks thanks to Lance. (PLEASE NO LANCE TALK) Maybe RR can do the same for Fuji with the new roadies.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

Frankie Andreau got hammered for having the vocabulary and eloquence of a 9 year old.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

CabDoctor said:


> Frankie Andreau got hammered for having the vocabulary and eloquence of a 9 year old.


As I said, he admitted and got hammered for it people who thought it hurt "Their Guy" 

Frankie is a great guy. Whilst years ago he was not the best commentator the last two years he has come into his own. It is good that Versus finally has a commentator that does not talk to the audience like they are new to the sport and do not know what is going on. He has developed into a smiler mode as Durand on Eurosport or Cassani on RAI. Very PRO


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Some more thoughts*

If the "court of public opinion" is still whipping him, and will, prolly for the rest of his life, can we not add that to the actual sentence that he served? I would surmise that in this case that he's prolly never, ever, going to be able to show up at a race, a shop opening, whatever, without the whispers and murmurs. He's regretting the fact that he claimed so much innocence, for sure. Gold Medal be-damned.

bt


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## david462 (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm glad I can just not pay attention to all the hoopla concerning whose doping and winning races. I don't pay attention to names, but only somewhat to teams. I attended the championships race, as a spectator, and with not knowing that Hamilton had previously been accused of doping or anything like that, I thoroughly enjoyed the race, as well as the photo finish.

Maybe some of you should give that a try, just let the officials pay attention and deal with the doping and forget about it, unless you enjoy that sorda thing instead of just sitting back and enjoying a good ol' road race like me.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Bry03cobra said:


> I wonder if Fuji is sponsoring RR next year. Toyota-United is gone after this year, Fuji is located in Philadelphia, maybe ball met with Fuji at the Philly race in June about a 09 sponsorship. A RR/Fuji sponsorship would make sense. US team, US bike. DeRosas are hard to come by here in the states, Fuji has nice mid/low range road bikes. Those are the buyers who would buy based on what a team rides. Many casual cyclists are rollin on Treks thanks to Lance. (PLEASE NO LANCE TALK) Maybe RR can do the same for Fuji with the new roadies.


I think you are correct, I heard they are riding Fuji next year


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## dmbell (May 20, 2006)

Congrats to Tyler. And yes, RR is now sponsored by Fuji. Beats paying for your bikes.


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## Spezzoto (Dec 17, 2004)

velomonkey said:


> Aside from seeing Tyler in a Rock Racing kit (it's worse than seeing Jordon in a Wizards uniform - and I don't like BBall) the oddest thing I ever saw was Landis staying at my hotel while the tour was going on last year. Essentially it was one year after he won and the guy was out peddling his case and his book. He came riding up, dropped his bike off to the valet and stopped to talk to me. This was at the W in LA and it was really strange.
> 
> Now to see Tyler going to do US crits, it's just strange, sad and pathetic. I guess this victory today is something, but it would have been so much cooler had he lived up to what was coming.


If you guys think it was weird to see Tyler in Rock Racing uniform wait until you see him in the Stars and Stripes for the road...


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

BAi9302010 said:


> The probable reason for his not admitting to doping is that he doesn't want to lose the Olympic medal. If he admits to doping and gets stripped of the title, Ekimov moves into first place. Tyler and Eki raced together for years on USPS and probably knew each others routine cover to cover. Do you guys remember after Tyler tested positive the Russian federation wanted to take action against him but Eki didn't. It's litterally the same situation as the 1996 Tour. You strip the winner of his title, but how can you be sure the guy in 2nd was clean...or 3rd, 4th, etc. for that matter?


Bobby Julich won the bronze there and didn't let Tyler off that easily. Actually he was pissed off......Tyler failed his Olympic drug test A sample and they screwed up the B sample after a delay in testing. WADA was determined to get him at the Vuelta though and they did.....


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

davidka said:


> DeCanio is a nutter....


No he's not. At any rate he's a lot less nutty than sociopaths like LA who is idolized....

Tyler with his ridiculous denials and his proclamations of moral purity is pretty nuts also. 

'Anybody who knows me knows I'm not the type of person to do this..'

Yeah right........


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Because my previous post was deleted for a name calling violation I shall attempt again in a manner as to not offend the mod squad. (imagine if pro cycling punished in such a manner, instead of a 2 year ban they delete you!)

For the life of me I cannot understand the elitist attitude that exists in some road cyclist that causes them to be so judgemental of everything. How is it that you can you believe that blood doping is so unforgivealble? Do you realize that the punishment for doping is worse than the punishment for driving under the influence? 

Few of us can even begin to comprehend what it is to compete at the highest level of sport. The pressure to stay there must be overwhelming. It's a cultural issue. The life a top athelete lives is not the same as ours. The ethics they live under are not the same as ours. If you are surrounded by certain things, drugs women, fast cars, etc... that becomes your norm. Eventually if you give in to that culture you become a part of it and it becomes a part of you. "Real life" as we know it no longer exist. It transits into the buisness world as well. Do you think Warren Buffet or Bill Gates got to where they are without bending rules and cheating a little? Why? because they did what what was expected in the culture they were in to accomplish the task at hand. Sure, they're charitable to the public, but if you were a buisness they wanted, you be crushed ethics be damned. 

So to the elitist, do no wrong, unforgiving road bike rider... get over yourself. You have not earned the right to be judge, jury, and executioner.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

coop said:


> For the life of me I cannot understand the elitist attitude.


I really don't think it's "elitist" to expect anyone not to cheat, then lie, then swear to their innocence on their recently deceased dog's grave, then concoct implausible theories to conceal their doping. I think that's a fairly reasonable standard to hold others to.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

coop said:


> Because my previous post was deleted for a name calling violation I shall attempt again in a manner as to not offend the mod squad. (imagine if pro cycling punished in such a manner, instead of a 2 year ban they delete you!)
> 
> For the life of me I cannot understand the elitist attitude that exists in some road cyclist that causes them to be so judgemental of everything. How is it that you can you believe that blood doping is so unforgivealble? Do you realize that the punishment for doping is worse than the punishment for driving under the influence?
> 
> ...


The doping does not bother me so much, it is the ridiculous lying and scamming that causes me to dislike Tyler.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

lookrider said:


> No he's not. At any rate he's a lot less nutty than sociopaths like LA who is idolized....
> 
> Tyler with his ridiculous denials and his proclamations of moral purity is pretty nuts also.
> 
> ...


Though i think Matt Decanio is trying to do the right thing, and may have some credible information, the way he is going about it scares the ever living $hit out of me. If you look at his website it has literally become a mix of hate towards the Olympics, various cyclists, the republican party, and various other things. His website also looks terribly like a white supremacy campaign as well. His militaristic "shut em down soldiers" method is also just a tad worrisome... Take a look: http://su13.us/news/?y=2008&m=9


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*Funny*



chase196126 said:


> Though i think Matt Decanio is trying to do the right thing, and may have some credible information, the way he is going about it scares the ever living $hit out of me. If you look at his website it has literally become a mix of hate towards the Olympics, various cyclists, the republican party, and various other things. His website also looks terribly like a white supremacy campaign as well. His militaristic "shut em down soldiers" method is also just a tad worrisome... Take a look: http://su13.us/news/?y=2008&m=9


You didn't actually think the guy was "normal," did you? I mean he's a pro cyclist who broke cycling's omerta. 

Here's an excerpt from his site which I am in agreement with....

_WHAT A FK-ING A$$HOLE IS MCCAIN. FIRST YOU RUN AN AD RAGGING ON OBAMA FOR BEING A CELEBRITY BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE HIM, AND THEN YOU GET A SEXY GOVERNOR TO TRY AND COMPETE. IT WILL NOT WORK. BRAINS COME BEFORE BEAUTY IN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE AND THE REPUBLICANS HAVE PROVEN TO HAVE NONE._

Here's a tape recording implicating KAYLE LEOGRANDE in doping at this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yf523a4eS0

The Olympics are very questionable in regard to Ped's. Various cyclists like LA are frauds. And the Republican party is a criminal organization that is ruining America.

I think the site is entertaining and educational.. I didn't know that GWB blamed Democrats for high gas prices.

Bush blames Democrats for high gas prices 
AP
CRAWFORD, Texas 

-President Bush on Saturday blamed the Democratic-led Congress for the high cost of gasoline and renewed his call for expanded offshore drilling to increase U.S. oil supplies.
"To reduce pressure on prices, we need to increase the supply of oil, especially oil produced here at home," Bush said in his weekly radio address.



Congress left for the August recess without a solution to fuel prices. In a bid to force a vote on offshore drilling, Republicans blocked Democratic proposals to use the nation's petroleum reserve, curb oil speculation and require oil companies to drill on already leased federal lands. READ MORE

I mean, c'mon, what's wrong with pounding the Republicans, they're insane, no?


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

Lookrider,
I have no issue with the above post. However, its really getting off of the original topic. Could you start a new topic on Matt D, and delete the above. I would like to discuss Matt and his site, just don't want to hijack the Tyler US nat champ post.
Thanks


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

blackhat said:


> I really don't think it's "elitist" to expect anyone not to cheat, then lie, then swear to their innocence on their recently deceased dog's grave, then concoct implausible theories to conceal their doping. I think that's a fairly reasonable standard to hold others to.


100% fact.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

blackhat said:


> I really don't think it's "elitist" to expect anyone not to cheat, then lie, then swear to their innocence on their recently deceased dog's grave, then concoct implausible theories to conceal their doping. I think that's a fairly reasonable standard to hold others to.


Perfectly said. That's what this is really all about. Sadly, some people will never understand.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

The sad thing is there is much to talk about from the USPRO championships but we cant talk about it because of the constant threat of being moved to the "doping forum". Tyler won on photo-finish. The announcer gave the win to Blake caldwell and as 3rd place was being duked-out, the announcer came back and announced a .002 seconds win for Tyler. A HUGE erruption of cheers went up (to my surprise frankly). Most exciting cycling finish Ive ever seen. People love Tyler apparently. Much better than watching Levi parade for 3 laps for solo victory. As someone mentioned, GP had 14 riders at the USPRO, Vandevlede/Pate/Zabriskie/Caldwell all tried ganging up but Tyler went right by. Unreal. TT was cool too, with Z, VDV, Zirbel separated by 5 seconds each . It all played out in the last couple minutes of the TT.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

I sense that people are Psed off about Doping Forum moves if the spectre of doping is even related in any way to the pro cycling post. Maybe the Mods could take a poll of the people as to wheter there should be a doping forum? Its frustrating when you want to talk about a GREAT, GREAT race and just because one doper was in the race it gets moved as if the race never happened. If there is a doping post in the pro cycling forum, people can just skip over it like they would with any other post that doesnt suit them. I know some people like the separation, so take a frickin poll!


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

I think the problem is thatTyler SERVED his suspension. If he failed a test after the race, sure it would belong here. When Floyd and Basso race next year, will every topic about a race they win or compete in be moved here?


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Godwin's Law - _"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."_

Morgan's Law - _"As a pro cycling discussion grows longer, the probability of a post involving Lance or doping approaches one."_


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

Exactly! How many degrees of separation must there be before a post does not get moved. If pro cycling gets mentioned in the Doping Forum (which it does of course), does it get moved to pro cycling? No. Because talking about one invariably requires taliking about the other. We dont need 157 forums. Its practically censorship. A USPRO thread should be in Pro Cycling. Lets just have a forum for sprinting, climbing, equipment, sponsors, one day classics, grand tours, while we are at it. Take a vote!


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

:ciappa:


coop said:


> So to the elitist, do no wrong, unforgiving road bike rider... get over yourself. You have not earned the right to be judge, jury, and executioner.


Hey, nice moral relativism.:thumbsup: 

We have earned the right to mock and ridicule Tyler on RBR forums though, no?:ciappa:


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## Sprocket - Matt (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice Win Tyler...
I had always hoped that some day we'd see him as the US Champ.
Too bad it wasn't like 5 years back, then he'd be loved (instead of loved & hated).

Personally, I think the doping thing is mostly suspect... on everyone's part.
The riders, the docs, the ASO, the UCI, the Labs, the court system.... etc. etc.
It seems like a big media game when there isn't a race being run, and when there is a race... As a fan, all I'll ever ask is that the guys race to the best of their abilities...

This Time Tyler did that and got the Stars & Stripes for it.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

I used to be a big Tyler fan…. But not anymore….. I think he did what he thought was right to protect “"the boys club", and not admit to using PED's…. But to drag it on like he did and the complete fabrication of incredible excuses showed to me the ‘real Tyler Hamilton’. 

I have much more respect for Frankie Andreau


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## wiles (Apr 17, 2005)

move this post about the Tyler win to the pro cycling forum where it belongs now....


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

wiles said:


> move this post about the Tyler win to the pro cycling forum where it belongs now....



Wishful thinking, never gonna happen. Threads only get moved into here, not out. Eeewww, that's spooky.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

blackhat said:


> I really don't think it's "elitist" to expect anyone not to cheat, then lie, then swear to their innocence on their recently deceased dog's grave, then concoct implausible theories to conceal their doping. I think that's a fairly reasonable standard to hold others to.



The elitist part is from the attitude that some people have towards Tyler's comeback. Part of my argument is that he served his punishment, now he's back and winning, deal with it. The only one's he needs to apologize or make closure with are GOD, himself, and maybe the dog. If Tyler wanted to apologize to friends and family, that's his buisness, and he probably already did. Does he owe me, you, or anybody else here anything? I don't think so. 

I agree with your above statement about holding people to standards, and punishing those who break the rules. The fact is he still served the punishment, bad argument or not. Being reinstated does not require admission of guilt or a showing of repentance. 

Somehow I think even if he did come out and admit guilt, many of the hater's attitude would remain the same.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> The doping does not bother me so much, it is the ridiculous lying and scamming that causes me to dislike Tyler.



Nobody is asking you to like him. But the fact is he won the US Pro and there are those out there that believe he shouldn't even have been racing. I don't care for Rock. Everybody here thinks they're all dirty, but they use the same testing as America's sweetheart Garmin. Either they're both dirty, or they're both clean. Draw your own conclusions.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

wiles said:


> move this post about the Tyler win to the pro cycling forum where it belongs now....


Exactly. Whether some of you guys like it or not, Tyler did his time and according to the governing body of the sport he now has a clean slate. Until he's caught doping again, posts regarding his wins belong in the pro forum.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

coop said:


> . Everybody here thinks they're all dirty, but they use the same testing as America's sweetheart Garmin. Either they're both dirty, or they're both clean. Draw your own conclusions.


I have yet to see anybody write that they think that all of Rock is dirty. Many of them have a bit of a checkered past but if they are currently dirty they certainly would have won more races this year.

Rock does not use the same anti doping program as Garmin. Garmin uses ACE and Rock uses the dirtbag that was on the Flandis defense team.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

BAi9302010 said:


> Exactly. Whether some of you guys like it or not, Tyler did his time and according to the governing body of the sport he now has a clean slate. Until he's caught doping again, posts regarding his wins belong in the pro forum.



There are threads you can post to in the procycling forum about Lyer. 
you can talk about USPRO here
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=144381

You can talk about his bike here
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=144785

This thread is about how Tyler is a lying doper.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> There are threads you can post to in the procycling forum about Lyer.
> you can talk about USPRO here
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=144381
> 
> ...



Ok, so why don't we just move every discussion about a pro who's doped into the doping forum. As a matter of fact, why don't we get the list of riders implicated in Operation Puerto and agree that discussions about them can only be held in the doping forum. 

Say what you will, every rider who has doped is a liar and had the exact same goal as the next guy. Some of you guys keep going on about Millar, Basso, etc. and how they've repent but in reality none of you know whether or not these guys are actually clean now. You're taking the word of a former liar and doper, and if they lied to us once, what makes you think they won't lie to us again.

Tyler may have lied, but he served his time and according to the rules, he has every right to race and has a clean slate to work with. Anyone who continues their righteous rants needs to get off their high horse because we all have skeletons in our closets and none of us as spectators really have enough knowledge about these guys outside of watching them in races and what we read in fluffed up magazine/internet articles to judge them.

This thread was started as a discussion regarding TH winning the national champs, not his doping past. It doesn't belong in the doping forum because for all we know, WADA, and the UCI knows, he was as clean as anyone else in the race.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

BAi9302010 said:


> Ok, so why don't we just move every discussion about a pro who's doped into the doping forum. As a matter of fact, why don't we get the list of riders implicated in Operation Puerto and agree that discussions about them can only be held in the doping forum.
> 
> Say what you will, every rider who has doped is a liar and had the exact same goal as the next guy. Some of you guys keep going on about Millar, Basso, etc. and how they've repent but in reality none of you know whether or not these guys are actually clean now. You're taking the word of a former liar and doper, and if they lied to us once, what makes you think they won't lie to us again.
> 
> ...



I hear you brother, but I fear your argument will fall on deaf ears. The MOD squad has a real itchy trigger finger to selective things, doping being one of them. There was a post about Landis a couple of months ago that was moved here well before doping was even being discussed. Then there are the righteous one's who feel that it their duty to condemn all dopers (except Millar who has become their king) to eternal damnation. They jump on the thread, turn it into a doping post and wala, here we are. Unfortunately there are those here who feel doping is the worst possible crime a person can commit. Nevermind, like you mentioned the skeletons they probably have in their own closet. For some reason punishment served is not enough unless they admit guilt like their king did.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Tyler is an exciting rider to watch, which is more than you can say about most of the American pros racing internationally and that's good enough for me. It really surprises me how worked up and angry people get over some of these riders. Their actions and the races they're in have absolutely no impact whatsoever on our lives beyond an entertainment level (anyone here related to a pro in Europe who got cheated out of a race by a rider who was doping?). We know that most of them dope or did dope at one point or another. It's a bike race, not a soap opera. Enjoy the race, and don't worry too much about what happens behind the scenes.


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## roadie_490 (Jun 11, 2004)

Are people upset because Hamilton may (or may not) have doped? Or, because they put him on the pedestal of a super American cyclist and feel that it has tarnished their self created squeaky clean image of US professional cycling? This sort of thing is fine if done by a European cyclist, but not an American cyclist?


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

david462 said:


> I'm glad I can just not pay attention to all the hoopla concerning whose doping and winning races. I don't pay attention to names, but only somewhat to teams. I attended the championships race, as a spectator, and with not knowing that Hamilton had previously been accused of doping or anything like that, I thoroughly enjoyed the race, as well as the photo finish.
> 
> Maybe some of you should give that a try, just let the officials pay attention and deal with the doping and forget about it, unless you enjoy that sorda thing instead of just sitting back and enjoying a* good ol' road race *like me.


Or is it? Once bitten, twice shy.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

It appears that some still do not get it. 

As I wrote, Tyler did his time, he can now race. It really does not bother me that much that he doped as it was the way of the time. If you actually read what most have written here what causes many to think he is a dirtbag is that he created an elaborate scam that was successful in extracting lots of $$ from suckers worldwide. This scam damaged the sport. Millar did nothing close to this.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> It appears that some still do not get it.
> 
> As I wrote, Tyler did his time, he can now race. It really does not bother me that much that he doped as it was the way of the time. If you actually read what most have written here what causes many to think he is a dirtbag is that he created an elaborate scam that was successful in extracting lots of $$ from suckers worldwide. This scam damaged the sport. Millar did nothing close to this.


Exactly!! Tyler was just one name on a huge list of names all involved in the same elaborate scam.....Operation Puerto. Tyler happened to fail a drug test because someone involved in the scam made a mistake. He's no worse of a person than anyone else on the list. They're all a bunch of liars, only the USCF was forced to take action because Tyler failed the blood test at the Vuelta. Take a look at all of the Spanish riders who were let off the hook because the Spanish federation turned a blind eye. If they had all been suspended, the number of wins by Spanish riders in the last 2-3 years would've been a fraction of what it is.

Millar only admitted to doping when his house in France was raided by the police and they found syringes used for administering EPO. It took two days of interrogating before he finally spilled the beans. Millar was as successful of a cyclist as Tyler and do you really think he returned any of his winnings or the money he "earned" from his contract with Cofidis...and were talking millions of Euros? He could be doping now for all we know and so could Tyler. Millar is no better than Tyler. Rhetoric, he just did what he had to in order to get a bigger paycheck when he returned to racing.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

forgot to post this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*I understand your points, but*

None of these arguments have done anything to sway the fact that I believe that Tyler Hamilton is a lying scumbag, nor alter the fact that I still remain disgusted. I'm sure that many others could sympathize..


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case

Tyler Hamilton - at the time of the initial investigation, Hamilton was suspended for a prior doping offense. Politiken, a Danish newspaper, published details of alleged doping diary of Hamilton during the 2003 season when he rode for Team CSC. It described intake of EPO, growth hormones, testosterone and insulin on 114 days during the 200 day season of 2003.[49] According to allegations originally published in El País, Hamilton is to have paid over €43,000 to Fuentes and that in 2003 Hamilton took erythropoietin, blood transfusions, growth hormone, a hormone taken by menopausal women and anabolic steroids.[50]


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

BAi9302010 said:


> Exactly!! Tyler was just one name on a huge list of names all involved in the same elaborate scam.....Operation Puerto. Tyler happened to fail a drug test because someone involved in the scam made a mistake. He's no worse of a person than anyone else on the list. They're all a bunch of liars, only the USCF was forced to take action because Tyler failed the blood test at the Vuelta. Take a look at all of the Spanish riders who were let off the hook because the Spanish federation turned a blind eye. If they had all been suspended, the number of wins by Spanish riders in the last 2-3 years would've been a fraction of what it is.


Actually it was WADA/USADA that caught Tyler, it was their first big catch as their jurisdiction over cycling only started in the summer of 2004. The challenge with OP is that all of the evidence against Tyler, and there is a lot of evidence, is from 2002 and 2003. As this is prior to USADA's jurisdiction it falls into the lap of USA cycling, who have chosen to ignore it and not pursue just like the Spanish Fed. If you know the group that has been in charge of it for the last few years you understand why. 




BAi9302010 said:


> Millar only admitted to doping when his house in France was raided by the police and they found syringes used for administering EPO. It took two days of interrogating before he finally spilled the beans. Millar was as successful of a cyclist as Tyler and do you really think he returned any of his winnings or the money he "earned" from his contract with Cofidis...and were talking millions of Euros? He could be doping now for all we know and so could Tyler. Millar is no better than Tyler. Rhetoric, he just did what he had to in order to get a bigger paycheck when he returned to racing.


Millar lied for two days Tyler lied for 4 years. Tyler collected over a million dollars from his sucker list. Millar's contract was for 40,000 Euros a year when he signed with SD. Tyler's BS defense caused damage to the sport. Millar has made great strides in helping change the culture of doping in the sport. If you think that Millar somehow earned millions of Euros you clearly do not understand the financial realities of professional cycling.

There is a huge difference in way the two have approached their issues.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

piano said:


> None of these arguments have done anything to sway the fact that I believe that Tyler Hamilton is a lying scumbag, ...
> 
> ...That just won the US Pro road race after serving a 2 year suspension for blood doping. Dude, get over it. He served the punishment that the powers that be deemed appropriate. That would make him free to go out and win races again.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

There is a huge difference in way the two have approached their issues.[/QUOTE]


They both lied, but only one would make a good prisoner of war


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Tyler collected over a million dollars from his sucker list....


...Cough cough, L.A. cough cough!!


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## Bry03cobra (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm a little dissapointed in the anti-Lance crowd. It took 3 pages to bring Lance into the Tyler doped discussion. It is usually only a few posts in before the "LA is to blame for everything" posts start.........but isn't the thread supposed to be about USpro race???


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

chuckice said:


> :cryin: :mad2:


All Right Tyler! :thumbsup:


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Bry03cobra said:


> I'm a little dissapointed in the anti-Lance crowd. It took 3 pages to bring Lance into the Tyler doped discussion. It is usually only a few posts in before the "LA is to blame for everything" posts start.........but isn't the thread supposed to be about USpro race???


 Unfortunately this post stopped being about the US pro race as soon as Tyler won. I'd love to see it back where it belongs, but too many people are hung up that a convicted,yet time served doper won the race...apparently clean 

I'm anything but anti-Lance. In fact I've always been a huge fan of his from the time he won the Worlds. But let's be honest, Lance built an empire off of LIVEStrong. My argument against the Tyler haters and how he duped millions of dollars of "suckers" can be linked to Lance and how he has accomplished the same, even if it was for a good cause. Look how it plays out. Cancer survivor wins 7 Tours de France, starts cancer research foundation, sells little yellow braclets, creates clothing line, puts LIVEStrong name on notebook computers(almost bought one). The point is I'd venture to say over half the people on this forum believe at some point Lance doped. Granted he was never officially caught and punished (the whole cortisone thing). But if he did allegedly dope and won 7 Tours de France, doesn't that mean he's duped billions out of suckers over lies and deceptions, even if for a good cause?

I say again to all the haters, let it go. Tyler won, Lance has an empire, and David Millar only turned himself in because he was going to be caught.:thumbsup:


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Clean or not. He was and is a disgrace to the sport and it disgusts me to see him in the US Champ jersey.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

chuckice said:


> Clean or not. He was and is a disgrace to the sport and it disgusts me to see him in the US Champ jersey.



How can you disgrace a sport that's been a disgrace for decades now? I don't know how long you've been a fan of cycling, but this stuff is not new. Tyler did not bring cycling down, it brought him down. 

The people on your side of the argument keep saying that the people on my side of the argument just don't get it or understand. I believe it's the other way around.You act disgusted when someone gets busted for doping. Say things like they're a disgrace to the sport etc..., but what you're not understanding is that the sport has been tarnished for years. It has created a culture that neither you or I can not even begin to understand. 

You can compare it to service in the armed forces. Grunts or Marines are are molded to live in a killing culture. That way when they go to war, they work on instict and training. Kill before you are killed. It's a culture, not so much a choice. I feel horrible whenever I see soldiers and Marines on trial for killing civilians in a war zone. They're not bad people or murderers, the only thing they're guilty of is being too caught up in their culture. A victim of their environment you could say.

Relate that to cycling. Here you have an elite collection of high endurance atheletes in a sport were you are constantly looking for an advantage. Lighter bikes, lighter bodies, anything to improve power to weight, endurance, recovery. After time you become a part of this highly addictive culture. Some dip there toes in, some jump in the deep end. Tyler was racing competetively during a dark period of a dark sport. The only thing he's guilty of is getting too caught up in the culture.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

chuckice said:


> Clean or not. He was and is a disgrace to the sport and it disgusts me to see him in the US Champ jersey.



Why is he a disgrace now?


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

Yes, count me in the group that is not impressed by the willingness to "come clean" of the David Millars of the world. WOW, he confessed 2 seconds after he got caught! What a great guy. The USPRO's was the most exciting race ive ever seen (correction to Velo News: the finish was an UPHILL drag and Tyler came from behind) "Confessions" only count when they come before you get caught red-handed. Come on, if you were really disgusted by dopers, you would have to stop watching cycling. If you are that offended by the dopers and suspected dopers, then you pretty much can hate nearly every winner of every GT for the last 20 years. Why watch the sport? "Suspected" brings an awful lot of people into the mix.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

bigmig19 said:


> Yes, count me in the group that is not impressed by the willingness to "come clean" of the David Millars of the world. WOW, he confessed 2 seconds after he got caught! What a great guy. The USPRO's was the most exciting race ive ever seen (correction to Velo News: the finish was an UPHILL drag and Tyler came from behind) "Confessions" only count when they come before you get caught red-handed. Come on, if you were really disgusted by dopers, you would have to stop watching cycling. If you are that offended by the dopers and suspected dopers, then you pretty much can hate nearly every winner of every GT for the last 20 years. Why watch the sport? "Suspected" brings an awful lot of people into the mix.


I used to watch. Don't watch anymore. Can't deal with the commentary..

It's like watching Bodybuilding..

I'd rather watch a local race. 

Matt Decanio told me they were doping in those too...:yikes:


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*You're wrong*



coop said:


> How can you disgrace a sport that's been a disgrace for decades now?.


He disgraced himself....He was caught taking tons of drugs and getting many transfusions. He could have fessed up and written a riveting best selling controversial book. We all know what he did. 



coop said:


> I don't know how long you've been a fan of cycling, but this stuff is not new. Tyler did not bring cycling down, it brought him down.


I agree with you to a certain extent. However,he could have transcended the sport with the truth after he was nailed. He chose another path... We're human and he chose to weave a tangled web.....Do you choose free will or determinism? That's the eternal philosophical question.



coop said:


> The people on your side of the argument keep saying that the people on my side of the argument just don't get it or understand.


The difference is that you accept the way things are and others don't...



coop said:


> I believe it's the other way around.You act disgusted when someone gets busted for doping. Say things like they're a disgrace to the sport etc....


fair enough.



coop said:


> but what you're not understanding is that the sport has been tarnished for years.


Is it worth trying to restore the luster, or are we slumping towards the lowest common denominator.



coop said:


> It has created a culture that neither you or I can not even begin to understand.


_Everyone_ understands peer pressure and the pressure to pay bills. Well maybe GWB doesn't understand the latter...



coop said:


> You can compare it to service in the armed forces..


I think you're stretching it here.



coop said:


> Grunts or Marines are are molded to live in a killing culture. That way when they go to war, they work on instict and training...


They have pretty well defined, well thought out rules of engagement.



coop said:


> Kill before you are killed. It's a culture, not so much a choice....


I think it's a poor analogy.




coop said:


> I feel horrible whenever I see soldiers and Marines on trial for killing civilians in a war zone. They're not bad people or murderers, the only thing they're guilty of is being too caught up in their culture. A victim of their environment you could say.


No you can't say that. You're painting with a much too broad brush here... Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the soldiers or Marines charged with murder didn't kill these civilians in cold blood? When these Marines were charged it wasn't even close that they were within the bounds of their duties.... These people were unarmed and were shot, a couple of times when the soldier in question had just raped one of the civilians or committed some other crime...It's not like they unloaded on someone in the middle of a firefight and killed an innocent civilian who they believed may have been firing at them.



coop said:


> Relate that to cycling. Here you have an elite collection of high endurance atheletes in a sport were you are constantly looking for an advantage. Lighter bikes, lighter bodies, anything to improve power to weight, endurance, recovery. After time you become a part of this highly addictive culture. Some dip there toes in, some jump in the deep end. Tyler was racing competetively during a dark period of a dark sport. The only thing he's guilty of is getting too caught up in the culture.


He's guilty of violating the rules of the sport. Then when he got caught, he lied his a$$ off and issued all sorts of ridiculous denials. He also cynically duped his fans with his "Believe" campaign...That is his greatest crime, his fraud and hypocrisy..

Tell me, why hasn't he come clean? You don't think it would help the sport and the sports world in general?


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## mh3 (Mar 8, 2006)

> "Tell me, why hasn't he come clean? You don't think it would help the sport and the sports world in general?"


Honestly? Think about it, it's human nature. The hardest things for most people are true introspection and to admit when we're wrong. 

As for whether it would help or not, I really don't know. I seem to recall many of the recent crop of riders who admitted to doping being crucified in the press and public forums. There's so much cynacism at this point, that as a rider, you're hosed either way. I can't say I blame them for not wanting to come into the light even if it is the right thing to do. 

Cheers.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

I would love for the sport of cycling to come out of the dark ages and clean itself up. For that to happen it needs a culture change, and that's what I"ve been trying to tell you. Hamilton happened during the dark ages, the past. For the sport to change we as fans, teams, sponsors, and so on need to focus on the future and changing the culture of cycling. I'm in no way saying we forget the past, but we cannot condemn those who were a part of it to remain in it. 

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe it was possible that Tyler won the US Pro "clean"?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

coop said:


> I would love for the sport of cycling to come out of the dark ages and clean itself up. For that to happen it needs a culture change, and that's what I"ve been trying to tell you. Hamilton happened during the dark ages, the past. For the sport to change we as fans, teams, sponsors, and so on need to focus on the future and changing the culture of cycling. I'm in no way saying we forget the past, but we cannot condemn those who were a part of it to remain in it.



As long as you have a guy like him, who was getting 14 transfusions in the months leading up to the 04 TdF, as well as taking tons of other $hit, in the sport, the culture is dubious..



coop said:


> Don't you think that maybe, just maybe it was possible that Tyler won the US Pro "clean"?


I tend to doubt it. After taking all that crap for so long you come to be mentally reliant on it. I don't see him going from mentally weak and needing PED's to being able to beat some very good younger guys clean.. and I have very good reason to doubt him....


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## Marek (Feb 17, 2004)

lookrider said:


> blamed the Democratic-led Congress for the high cost of gasoline and renewed his call for expanded offshore drilling to increase U.S. oil supplies.
> "To reduce pressure on prices, we need to increase the supply of oil, especially oil produced here at home," Bush said in his weekly radio address.
> 
> 
> ...


it was politics for sure and when has this not ever happened. did you just wake up? they are all insane for their power and party politics. sounds like you can't wait for mr O to solve all the world's ills though....


now my question; 

Why the Rock Racing haters? (are they republicians or something?) or they hired Tyler is it?


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Marek said:


> it was politics for sure and when has this not ever happened.


Can't let the Republicans keep getting away with lies this time.



Marek said:


> did you just wake up?


nope. Going to fight against all bs this time whether it's direct or passsive agressive crap like yours..



Marek said:


> they are all insane for their power and party politics.


Nice try moreon.. They're not *all* insane. The insanity is primarily Republican.



Marek said:


> sounds like you can't wait for mr O to solve all the world's ills though.....


Nice hypebole asshat.. Obama will be a incalculable improvement over McSame....




Marek said:


> now my question; .....


Now that you've gotten your passive aggresive shots out of the way.. 



Marek said:


> Why the Rock Racing haters? (are they republicians or something?).....


More hyperbole. Spade calling is not hating....They do have cheating and lying in common with the republicans..



Marek said:


> or they hired Tyler is it?


Tyler has been shown to have been taking as much $hit as pro bodybuilders....

If you think that's ok there's nothing I can say that will straighten out your illogical thinking..


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