# PDM and Concorde frames



## Unica

I was lucky enough to pick up a lugged Columbus MAX tubed Concorde recently, but the paint is a little tied.

Does anyone know if PDM rode MAX frames? I know (and lust after!) the SLX versions, but I can't recall seeing any MAX team frames.

I'll post pics later, but I'm just trying to get ideas for a possible respray at the moment....


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## Sayba2th

Unica said:


> I was lucky enough to pick up a lugged Columbus MAX tubed Concorde recently, but the paint is a little tied.
> 
> Does anyone know if PDM rode MAX frames? I know (and lust after!) the SLX versions, but I can't recall seeing any MAX team frames.
> 
> I'll post pics later, but I'm just trying to get ideas for a possible respray at the moment....


Hi Mike,

Don't know if you get this, or if it will still be relevent however all the team issue frames for the PDM squad were SLX on the early editions 86-87 eventually all ending up as TSX on the squadra model of frame. These frames were produced mainly by Ciocc this can be traced via the italian flag bedded into the steel at rear of the top tube.

I have a 1990 Squadra that is in mint condition and hasb been built up as period correct and they are just so pretty in person. These are some of the most awesome frames from a golden age of the pro peloton.

Hopefully this gives you some back ground. How did you go on the respray? If you haven't found yet or not aware but there are replacement decals available for refinishing or restoration that can be easily found on ebay, Cyclmondo or GTS of Ebay are two that I am aware of and dealt with.

All the best

Damien


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## paredown

Don't know the answer to your question--the Concorde I acquired this spring is EL-OS, also bearing the Ciocc/Billato Italian flag (but no race number attachment point).

I wanted to bid on a MAX bike this week--a NOS Diamant on eBay--it went for under $400. 

Not very much about Diamant on the 'net, but they were another Belgian-based bike company getting bikes made in Italy.


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## Unica

@Damien - thanks for the info. It's confirmed my thoughts. I've still not got round to painting her yet, and may build her up this summer just to ride! I'd love to see pictures of your Squadra.

@Paredown - Diamant are (were) German, I think. There's a little info here but not much.


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## paredown

Unica said:


> @Paredown - Diamant are (were) German, I think. There's a little info here but not much.


Apparently there are/were two unrelated manufacturers named Diamant, one Belgian, one German--and I was guessing by the finish that this was one of the Belgian ones--the picture in this thread shows a very similar paint job/logo--(don't mean to hijack your thread).

I have yet to spring for a refinish--do you have anyone in mind?


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## Unica

paredown said:


> Apparently there are/were two unrelated manufacturers named Diamant, one Belgian, one German--and I was guessing by the finish that this was one of the Belgian ones--the picture in this thread shows a very similar paint job/logo--(don't mean to hijack your thread).
> 
> I have yet to spring for a refinish--do you have anyone in mind?


That could make sense. I've seen a lot coming out of Belgium with the same style of paint. It might be worthwhile seeing what the guys at retrobike.co.uk say (great site for this kind of thing).

As for re-spray, I'm in the UK. My local frame builder used to have a great reputation with re-finishing but their work has gone down hill over the last few years. The last time I had a frame re-sprayed was my Tommasini which I actually sent beck 'home' to the factory in Italy as it was cheaper! Can't really do that with a Concorde...

And np with thread hijack


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## Sayba2th

Hi Mike,

No problems, the other frame builder Concorde used was Bilato. Good luck on finding the right guy for the job its something you may not wanna rush. I will be doing pictures on an upcoming blog. There are some C Record Ergo levers I have got recently that will be one of the last pieces remaining to make it "complete" so stay tuned. How did you go what was the end result? If done PIcs?


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## asshauler

Hey guys,

Not to butt in, but I too was in the same situation with a newer Concorde frame. I got a 
TIG-welded Columbus Genius Concorde frame and wanted to find out what the last version of PDM team bikes were made of. Everything I could find was SLX or TSX in a PDM paint job. But I had it painted as a post-PDM tribute frame and though I wish it was a lugged SLX frame this bike rides much better and is a little lighter. Max tubing will definitely ride a little stiffer depending on the size of frame but I know where there is a NOS Concorde Max frame is and they look cool! I'm always tempted to buy it but they guy wants thousands for it (that's another story). I had a somewhat local guy do the respray for me and all the decals he made and painted on the frame. My frame had a cool Concorde brass headbadge I kept instead of the vertical sticker but I have gotten nothing but compliments on it.


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## asshauler

Actually, it is Fillet brazed not TIG welded.


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## davcruz

Nice looking Concorde asshauler! Can you take some better pics of the black to white transition area for me? I have a PDM frame but it has the other style graphics (the ones I cannot find replacements for BTW) and I am going to go with this style.


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## Unica

@Damien - I'll keep an eye on the blog - can you let me know the address?

I've still not got round to moving forward with her. I was hoping to have got it done over the summer, but work stuff got in the way...

@Asshauler - that's one good looking bike, and I love the Mavic group on it - more pics please!


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## mj3200

I have the 1992 Concorde catalogue here.
From top to bottom the order is:
Carbonne TVT - Bonded carbon 
Squadra - TSX
Aquila - SLX
Prelude - SL
EL35 - EL
MAX - MAX
Classic - Aelle
Colombo - Aelle
Mistral - Aelle
Astore - Cromor

All frames could be specified with any paint scheme.

I have seen various team guys on the TVT Carbonne in the Alps. Interestingly in the 1988 Alp du Huez stage Rooks appears to be on an SLX frame when Delgado is on a TVT 92. Rooks won.

Here's mine.....


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## fatsteelfreak

Unica said:


> That could make sense. I've seen a lot coming out of Belgium with the same style of paint. It might be worthwhile seeing what the guys at retrobike.co.uk say (great site for this kind of thing).
> 
> As for re-spray, I'm in the UK. My local frame builder used to have a great reputation with re-finishing but their work has gone down hill over the last few years. The last time I had a frame re-sprayed was my Tommasini which I actually sent beck 'home' to the factory in Italy as it was cheaper! Can't really do that with a Concorde...
> 
> And np with thread hijack


Have you thought about using

ATLANTIC BOULEVARD

Not cheap, but come highly recommended...

Andy


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## davcruz

Here is mine, it's a 1990 Concorde PDM Replica Astore made from CroMor. I have ridden it about 200 miles with a Shimano group and loved the ride, I wanted to do this prior to blowing serious cake on a Campagnolo group. I have now got most of what I need for the Campy group, mostly all Chorus 10 Speed except for the Centaur Ultra Torque crank. I opted to stay with Shimano based wheels since I have several sets of them. I have an American Classic Shimano to Campy conversion cassette on the way right now.

Still need to find my seatpost but the Thomson works as a stand in. Looking for a polished aluminum job, preferably aero style. Also I intend to polish the 3TTT Evol stem as it is a grey color now. Lastly need to find a saddle, thinking of a San Marco Regal or a Selle Italia Flite.

So as you can see the paint is a bit tired. I really want the graphics style that came on the bike but I just cannot find anyone making them, I have been in touch with Greg Softly in Australia and seems willing to help but I am not sure my tracings will provide what he needs to make the decals up.

To that end I think I have decided to go with the style on MJ3200's Squadra. Greg has this set available now and the paint job would be easier also.

Any input or anyone know of a place I can get the style on my frame?


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## Unica

@MJ3200 - I've seen your bike before and never tire of looking at it. If it ever needs a good home...

@Andy - yes, Atlantic Boulevard are fantastic, but as you say not cheap! I'm thinking I may leave her as is for the moment as I really want to build her and get out on the road. I really want to try Max to see how it compares to other steel I've ridden.

@Davcruz - Can't help you with the decals, but leave the stem as it is. The colour of those 3T stems is perfect, I think. Maybe try and find some 3T bars to match? That's what I've got on my Tommasini and it sets the front off just right.


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## asshauler

My painter has all the stencils for painting the decals and logos on PDM frames. At least all the ones that are on my frame. Don't mess with re-pop decals. He was going to do the PDM team decals but since mine isn't a true PDM frame I declined them. My guy is not cheap but he does crazy good stuff on a bike! He also paints NASCAR driver helmets so he gets backed up from time to time. He also was the Colnago frame repainter after any warranty work was done when the importer was here in Texas. Nuff said. I'll post more pics later of mine.


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## asshauler

Here are a few more pics of my frame/bike with painted on graphics. Only the Columbus tubing decal is an actual decal, all others are painted.


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## Unica

@Asshauler - man, that's fantastic. As I said, I love the Mavic group on it, but that paint job looks amazing.


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## BryanSayer

Unica said:


> Can't really do that with a Concorde...
> 
> And np with thread hijack


You can send it to Giovanni Pelizzoli

History | PELIZZOLI world


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## jet sanchEz

This site has photos of many MAX tubed bikes:

Columbus MAX Bikes


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## mj3200

mj3200 said:


> I have the 1992 Concorde catalogue here.
> From top to bottom the order is:
> Carbonne TVT - Bonded carbon
> Squadra - TSX
> Aquila - SLX
> Prelude - SL
> EL35 - EL
> MAX - MAX
> Classic - Aelle
> Colombo - Aelle
> Mistral - Aelle
> Astore - Cromor
> 
> All frames could be specified with any paint scheme.
> 
> I have seen various team guys on the TVT Carbonne in the Alps. Interestingly in the 1988 Alp du Huez stage Rooks appears to be on an SLX frame when Delgado is on a TVT 92. Rooks won.
> 
> Here's mine.....


Strangely enough the more I read I would have said at that time MAX would be the top of the tree; lighter than TSX, SLX and SL which with their skinnier tubes and marginally heavier weight seem a bit of a throwback. There's a Columbus chart which seems to put MAX at the head of the family here:

columbus-536x800.jpg (image)


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## paredown

Another question--has anyone noticed the pattern as to which frames got the headbadge and which got the vertical script decal spelling out Concorde?

Mine is EL-OS and has the badge; and I see that your MAX frame does as well...


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## davcruz

I think the vertical Concorde was done on the PDM style frames, obviously not 100% certain of this as I cannot find any real info on the interwebz to support the notion.

Also, I thought that Aelle was the bottom tube, CroMor was higher on the charts per what I have seen someplace from Columbus, similar to but lighter than SL.


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## asshauler

Aelle was the lowest level of Columbus tubing. 2340gm. It was straight gauge with a make up of CR-M-V? (I'm guessing Chromium, magnesium and Vanadium??) It is not Cro-Moly. Cromor is Cr-Mo and is butted at 2305gm for a tubeset. This info came direct from a early 90's Columbus catalog. Sl tubing was "Cyclex Steel" which was their top shelf recipe for steel so I don't think t was similar to Cromor except in tube diameters and butt lengths SL came in at 2000 gms for a tubeset.


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## asshauler

Also I believe the Head badge was only available on the nicer higher end frames like Max, Genius, EL-OS. This is what it shows in the 1993 catalog. Entry level frames up to about SL or SLX (TSX) shows decals that look like the headbadge. So I would say they probably re-vamped their headtube logos in the 90's.


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## Unica

paredown said:


> Another question--has anyone noticed the pattern as to which frames got the headbadge and which got the vertical script decal spelling out Concorde?
> 
> Mine is EL-OS and has the badge; and I see that your MAX frame does as well...


Yep, mine has a badge as well.


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## aptivaboy

_Strangely enough the more I read I would have said at that time MAX would be the top of the tree; lighter than TSX, SLX and SL which with their skinnier tubes and marginally heavier weight seem a bit of a throwback._

It may have been the lugs. I have read where MAX tubes were plenty light; it was the lugset that pushed the weight up. One you added in the lugs, the MAX seemed to gain weight, making tubesets like SLX and TSX more attractive to some. 

Robert


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## Squenchy

Beautiful Concordes!


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## davcruz

Well, basically done with my Astore PDM frame. I like the ride however I think a 58 would fit me a bit better than this 56, I just can't seem to get the bars high enough for my 41 year old body to be completely comfortable but I am working on it!


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## mj3200

Very nice! The seat post looks like its about the correct, if uooer, limit. I would try it with the saddle flat and see if that makes the fit better.....


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## mj3200

*1989 Tour de France*

Here's Gert-Jan Theunisse on his Concorde in action on Alp d'Huez. You can see from the frame that it has a Columbus TSX or SLX label but on closer inspection it has - for sure - TVT forks and to add to the confusion it also seems to have alloy rear dropouts as per the TVT frames, together with a band on front mech. I've included a b&w from earlier in the tour and it seems to me to show non-steel lugs connecting the top and down tubes, although the headtube doesn't much look like the TVT's.

You can tell I don't have much on my desk at the moment.........


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## davcruz

Those are fantastic photos! That is the paint design I will be going with since those decals are readily available and the ones on my frame are not reproduced by anyone that I can find...which is a real bummer for me as I prefer the design on my frame...anyway, thanks for the history. I remember watching that tour back in the day but I was so focused on Lemond that I did not even notice the other bikes.


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## Cinelli 82220

PDM used TVTs, that's definitely one of them.
Lots of teams of that era used rebadged TVTs. The TVTs had filler or maybe a one piece head tube so the lugs didn't show. LeMond, Indurain and Del Gado all won the Tour on TVT frames.


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## mj3200

*Straight From The Horse's Wife's Mouth*

After I posted the pics with Gert's bike I emailed him via his website about it expecting zero reply but lo and behold his wife just sent me this:

Hello,

Nice to hear from you.
I asked my husband and: You are right!
it was a TVT bike!

Hope you got your answer.

All the best,

Nancy Theunisse

Still interested in the Columbus sticker. Contractual obligation?


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## Unica

I'll take any of those bikes from the middle photo...

In the first one, you can just see the plastic guide where the brake cable leaves the top tube which is another give away.

But it's amazing that you got a response!


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## paredown

Just saw this TVT Concorde Carbon on eBay. (I've bought from this guy before, decent experience)


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## mj3200

*Greg Lemond*

Here's a pic of Greg on a Concorde. I don't actually remember him riding for PDM.


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## aptivaboy

He rode for them I think in '88 before moving on to ADR for this wonderful '89 season. He didn't stay with PDM long. Going from memory, even back then there were rumors of serious PED use at PDM, and Greg was reportedly uncomfortable there. PDM was also supposedly uncomfortable with Greg's physical progress, too. Either way, it was more or less a mutual decision to part company, if you believed what was printed in the papers back then.


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## mj3200

Interesting stuff. Thanks.

View attachment 272706


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## Unica

MJ - will you stop posting pictures of your Squdra please. You know how much I hate it 

Happy New Year all!


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## takmanjapan

*Not always a TVT*

Delgado's PDM tour bike in 1987 looks like a Vitus carbon. The seat cluster and TT cable guides are the give-aways.
View attachment 273121


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## Sayba2th

not meant to post here


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## Sayba2th

paredown said:


> Another question--has anyone noticed the pattern as to which frames got the headbadge and which got the vertical script decal spelling out Concorde?
> 
> Mine is EL-OS and has the badge; and I see that your MAX frame does as well...


I think it had to do with frame size the smaller the frame as the smaller the head tube and may not be long enough to accomodate it hence the C badge with the bird therefore the scripting is done on the larger frames but I cannot be 100% certain on that.


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## Sayba2th

Unica said:


> @Damien - I'll keep an eye on the blog - can you let me know the address?
> 
> I've still not got round to moving forward with her. I was hoping to have got it done over the summer, but work stuff got in the way...
> 
> @Asshauler - that's one good looking bike, and I love the Mavic group on it - more pics please!


Mike, soz for the long delay, ok parts arrived this morning so should be sorted by early next week pics late in the week, the blg will be submitted to Recycling Jerseys in the US, a great place if your seeking some killa retro gear to complete your look or just love the older jerseys. Jims range is superb and reasonably priced and can vouch for authenticity legitimacy and service. I will advise once he posts. If you need decals the bay of plenty has you covered but the 90-91 scheme onwards decals I have found difficult to find a whole set, no one at this point I have found covered the whole squarda pack. How's it all coming any ways. Be keen to hear!

@ Asshauler - Kuddos from myself as well, class job!


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## Squenchy

I picked this one up locally last summer. Even though it's too small for me, nostalgia got the best of me. I figured if nothing else, it would look good hanging on my wall.

Aquila, SLX, 57cm ctc.
View attachment 276163


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## paredown

Squenchy said:


> I picked this one up locally last summer. Even though it's too small for me, nostalgia got the best of me. I figured if nothing else, it would look good hanging on my wall.
> 
> Aquila, SLX, 57cm ctc.
> View attachment 276163


PM me if you decide to let it go--my size exactly...


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## Squenchy

paredown said:


> PM me if you decide to let it go--my size exactly...


I will.


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## maciekde13

Squenchy said:


> I picked this one up locally last summer. Even though it's too small for me, nostalgia got the best of me. I figured if nothing else, it would look good hanging on my wall.
> 
> Aquila, SLX, 57cm ctc.
> View attachment 276163


Trully amazing frame !!! I looking for Aquila like yours. If it is too big for you, please, let me help you to ease your pain. I promise you to take care of this beauty. It will be all assambled with the C Record components, just like this bike was done for PDM.
I am waiting for your news !!! Greetings from France


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## SWijland

I finally got round uploading pictures of the Concorde frames I sold over the years onto my Flickr account. Check it out:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/quality_vintage_bikes/sets/72157633242790398/


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## paredown

SWijland said:


> I finally got round uploading pictures of the Concorde frames I sold over the years onto my Flickr account. Check it out:
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/quality_vintage_bikes/sets/72157633242790398/


Nice bikes!


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