# Question regarding the "Get lapped, get pulled" rule



## SlowIsMe (Oct 3, 2007)

I've never raced CX before, though it seems like a boatload of fun, especially coming from a mtb background. The question I have is regarding the rule that requires a racer to leave the course if they get lapped. Maybe this has been posted before, but seriously - why is the purpose/reasoning for this rule? 

It has been explained to me that the idea is that if you get lapped, you are completely out of contention, and therefore should be pulled so that there is less chance of wrecking/jamming/getting in the way of those that DO have a chance. In other words, get out of the way of the actual race. 

That explanation seems to be total BS to me though, because there are plenty of people who have no chance of being on the podium the instant they toe up to the line with the rest of the field. That is, in any given class, there are still huge differences in speed/ability throughout the field. MUCH LIKE ANY OTHER TYPE OF RACING. Granted, I know that at many local levels, if you're lapped, you aren't really required to leave the course until the last lap, as opposed to right away. Either way, it seems like a futile way to compete.

Is there a better explanation?


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Not really. If you'd ever been one of those people battling it out for a podium spot only to have someone getting lapped get in your way, it would probably make more sense to you. I've had more issues in criteriums where lapped riders were not pulled where one or more of them did something that affected the outcome of the race. They can get penalized for it, but that doesn't change the placings of the leading riders that were affected by the lapped rider.


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

It depends on the course. They were not pulling lapped riders at the UCI C1 in Toronto yesterday. If there are no bottlenecks on the course, then it is alright to stay on course as long as you allow riders on the lead lap through (and give them whatever line they ask for).

On courses with even the smallest bottleneck, you need to have lapped riders off the course or else they will be in the way. The reason you get pulled when lapped, but not just because you're not a podium contender is that you can take up the rear, but as long as you stay on the lead lap you're not encountering faster riders. Once they start coming through, you _are_ in the way.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

That's just CX showing its road racing background. There's first and everybody else is tied for last. It's a mindset you will just have to get use to. They really do believe that you are just, "in the way." - TF


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

There are three plausible justifications for this rule:
1) To keep non-contending racers from impacting the final results by obstructing faster racers.
2) To protect the safety of all participants.
3) To ensure that the results are recorded accurately.

This generally only happens at the most elite levels, AFAIK, so there are usually lower cats that will be more competitive and more fun for someone who is getting lapped out.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

At the elite level, especially championship races, it makes perfect sense to pull people being lapped. Think about it, a cross race is about ten laps. If you are being lapped in that amount of time, you are being clearly outclassed.

And AFAIK you still get placed even if you get pulled for being lapped.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

P.S. And it's ridiculous that in pro crits, a team can block the field while the break laps them, and _then_ lead out their sprinter, who was in the break.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

That's crit racing... love it or hate it, you have to deal with it 

P.S. Next time, make the break!


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## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

It seems like most non-elite level races will not pull riders. If one is racing in the elite race, there is a chance of getting pulled, it's just part of the deal. I have seen UCI races where riders will be pulled before the finishing straight, which seems fair also. In these same events, riders in other classes could get lapped all they wanted, which also seems fair.

As a promoter, you'd just as soon leave everyone in, as getting pulled is always a bit of a downer, especially for riders new to the sport. After getting pulled from my share of crits and cross races, I'm sort of numb to it.


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## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

I actually think that the "you get lapped, you get pulled" rule is a great one, and one that shouldn't need explanation. 

Getting lapped is part of bike racing. It happens to everyone, at some point or another. Sure, you could "get your moneys worth" and it's nice to keep riding if you really need the training (uh, which I guess you just found out that you do...) but why not just exit the course, cheer for the riders who could ride the pace of the race and reflect on what you can do differently next time? Show humility and enjoy the entire experience of bike racing: winning is a part of that experience and so is getting lapped and subsequently pulled form the course. It's really not that much worse than getting lapped; in my experience those laps after being lapped are pretty forgetable.

There's no shame in getting lapped. It's not something to take personally. There's a format that the race should follow and there are rules to the game. At the elite level, the rules will sometimes stipulate that if you're lapped, you're done. The rules do not say: "You are all entitled to 10 laps on this cyclocross track". Just follow the rules, you'll still get placed in the race.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

I buried myself for the last two laps today to try to stay on the lead lap. Made it to the finish a solid 15 seconds ahead of the leader. Got pulled anyway.

Not a UCI race, just your average podunk "elite" race. I was less than pleased. Lazy-ass officials just didn't want to wait around for another six minutes.

But... I got over it. And realized that I do kinda suck sometimes.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

Andrea138 said:


> That's crit racing... love it or hate it, you have to deal with it
> 
> P.S. Next time, make the break!


Or race a form of bike racing that's not reeee-tarded.

[/trolling]


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## SlowIsMe (Oct 3, 2007)

wunlap togo said:


> I actually think that the "you get lapped, you get pulled" rule is a great one, and one that shouldn't need explanation.
> 
> Getting lapped is part of bike racing. It happens to everyone, at some point or another. Sure, you could "get your moneys worth" and it's nice to keep riding if you really need the training (uh, which I guess you just found out that you do...) but why not just exit the course, cheer for the riders who could ride the pace of the race and reflect on what you can do differently next time? Show humility and enjoy the entire experience of bike racing: winning is a part of that experience and so is getting lapped and subsequently pulled form the course. It's really not that much worse than getting lapped; in my experience those laps after being lapped are pretty forgetable.
> 
> There's no shame in getting lapped. It's not something to take personally. There's a format that the race should follow and there are rules to the game. At the elite level, the rules will sometimes stipulate that if you're lapped, you're done. The rules do not say: "You are all entitled to 10 laps on this cyclocross track". Just follow the rules, you'll still get placed in the race.



That actually sounds like it's part of CX racing, not bike racing as a whole. I've never heard of this rule in mountain bike racing, whether it is short track racing (same format as CX racing - 25-45 minutes + X number of laps), or even in endurance mountain bike racing where you may end up doing 12/24 hours and at least as many laps, depending on course length. Why don't they have that rule there as well? The courses are much tighter, and more treacherous.

I still just think that at any given start line, there are a good majority of those people that know they aren't in serious contention, and don't expect to be either.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

SlowIsMe said:


> That actually sounds like it's part of CX racing, not bike racing as a whole. I've never heard of this rule in mountain bike racing, whether it is short track racing (same format as CX racing - 25-45 minutes + X number of laps), or even in endurance mountain bike racing where you may end up doing 12/24 hours and at least as many laps, depending on course length. Why don't they have that rule there as well? The courses are much tighter, and more treacherous.
> 
> I still just think that at any given start line, there are a good majority of those people that know they aren't in serious contention, and don't expect to be either.


1) They are hyper-aggressive in the short track at MTB nats, pulling riders who are within a minute of being lapped.

2) The longer the race is, the less getting held up by lapped traffic matters. You have to pass hundreds of people in a 24 hour mtb race, but getting held up for 5 seconds doesn't matter. There's been many occurrences in elite cx races where lapped guys decide the race -- and these are races WITH a pulling rule. It would be ridiculous if they didn't pull.

3) The only race I've ever seen lapped riders get pulled at are elite races. It's not like beginners are getting removed from the course, even though they get lapped more often and cause more problems. People entering the elite race know what they're in for.


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## slideeslide (Feb 1, 2007)

Recently I was in a race in 2nd, 1st was long ways away but 3rd was chasing me down heartily. Came up on lapped traffic in singletrack like prairie grass, announced "rider up!" no line, then said"hey Id really like a pass" no line. then I said "com;n lets go" and then he retorted "where do you want me to go?" and I said "over, its the race rules" and then he proceeded to let me know that I shouldn't take it so seriously and I overtook through the thick grass. 
Now if I ate it passing him there and I DNFd, is that fair? If that lapped rider clogged it up long enough for 3rd to catch me or lose the chance of winning, is that fair? Did I hate being "that guy" behind you and having to be a dick? Yup

I agree with the earlier poster that unless you are in contention for podium, the rules like that are not as clear until you are in that position yourself. The Lapped/Pulled rider rule is there to allow possibly a true result of the race.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

The only weird thing about it to me is it sounds like the riders get pulled *after* they get lapped by the lead rider. That doesn't seem right since it means the leader and maybe a few more guys had to deal with passing the lapped traffic, but then they were pulled out of the race and then the racers coming up behind the lead guys don't have to deal with the slow traffic that the leaders had to.


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## single1x1 (Mar 26, 2005)

they'll pull riders in cat 3 at star crossed and I think even cat 4, but not in most local non UCI races, where as they say everyone is done on the same lap, meaning if you were lapped in a 6 lap race your done on your 5th lap, at least it clears up the course some for the bell lap for the leaders, and allows the races to flow better.


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## mtbdcd (Jul 7, 2002)

In Crit racing makes sense for a lot of reasons, scoring, bunch sprint, even being in the field when you are lapped is not good, etc. 
None of these seem to make much sense in CX where it is much easier to get lapped, i.e. draft does not help you. And you do not have large groups like a crit. The CX races i have raced, everyone finishes on the same lap, as single1x1 mentioned.
In mtb racing, passing riders whether lapped or not is something you have to deal with. And it is way harder to get around a rider in singletrack then on a CX course. But then again mtb riders seem more ready to pull aside and let a faster rider pass, and i believe there is a rule that addresses this too.

Seems like the top 3 contenders find the rest of the field an annoyance. Curious, if they would be so happy if none of the non-contenders showed up. Might affect the prize money a little.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

pacificaslim said:


> The only weird thing about it to me is it sounds like the riders get pulled *after* they get lapped by the lead rider. That doesn't seem right since it means the leader and maybe a few more guys had to deal with passing the lapped traffic, but then they were pulled out of the race and then the racers coming up behind the lead guys don't have to deal with the slow traffic that the leaders had to.


In part it's done to minimize the chance that the officials will screw up the scoring.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Ah, I could see that benefit. At the last race I went to, they ran the single speed with the A men. It was the only single speed class so of course you had guys who were getting lapped by the A men. Towards the end of the hour, I saw several slow riders looking over their shoulder as they were coming towards the finish line, taking their time, and it sure looked like they were hoping and praying that the leader was going to pass them before the line so the race would be over and they wouldn't have to do one more lap. One guy looked totally bummed when the leader didn't pass him and said, "well, one more i guess."


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

mtbdcd said:


> Seems like the top 3 contenders find the rest of the field an annoyance. Curious, if they would be so happy if none of the non-contenders showed up. Might affect the prize money a little.


I occasionally lap a riders and I always thank them for giving me space, which they do without exception. When I was starting out I once rode off course to get out of the way of the Jaques-Maynes bros while I was racing in an SS field that started with As. One of them thanked me as they passed.

I don't think the problem is the top 3 contenders. I think it is a fringe .03% of people for whom this rule gets tangled up in some other personal issues. But I'm sure there are less elitist forms of racing that they can pursue.


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## mtbdcd (Jul 7, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I occasionally lap a riders and I always thank them for giving me space, which they do without exception. When I was starting out I once rode off course to get out of the way of the Jaques-Maynes bros while I was racing in an SS field that started with As. One of them thanked me as they passed.
> 
> I don't think the problem is the top 3 contenders. I think it is a fringe .03% of people for whom this rule gets tangled up in some other personal issues. But I'm sure there are less elitist forms of racing that they can pursue.


That seems like a good attitude and the attitude of most. A little courtesy on both sides goes a long way. Seems like someone being lapped would want to get out of the way. When i have been lapped, eager to give the line to the approaching riders. But i guess a bad example goes a long way in the wrong direction.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

mtbdcd said:


> That seems like a good attitude and the attitude of most. A little courtesy on both sides goes a long way. Seems like someone being lapped would want to get out of the way. When i have been lapped, eager to give the line to the approaching riders. But i guess a bad example goes a long way in the wrong direction.


I think it is also worth keeping in mind that when someone is red-lined, courtesy may be asking a bit much. Coherence may be asking a bit much. The racer that bellows at someone to get out of the way is most likely not trying to be a jerk.


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

colinr said:


> I buried myself for the last two laps today to try to stay on the lead lap. Made it to the finish a solid 15 seconds ahead of the leader. Got pulled anyway.
> 
> Not a UCI race, just your average podunk "elite" race. I was less than pleased. Lazy-ass officials just didn't want to wait around for another six minutes.
> 
> But... I got over it. And realized that I do kinda suck sometimes.


This is less "getting pulled" than "finishing on the leader's lap", which is announced at the race start. You raced 40min, so they more ended it than did garden weeding.

Pulling is a bummer, and sometimes it is more aggressive (SS CX nats last year for example), and sometimes less, but it is a necessary evil. If you look at the 2007 M35 CX nats where Mark McCormack was riding 1-2 with Brandon Dwight and a lapped rider got between the two of them 200m from the line, stacked it, and took down McCormack, so Brandon soloed in for the win. Not taking anything away from Brandon, but it definitely wasn't fair to McCormack that the lapped rider interfered. He likely should've been pulled previously, or used the appropriate etiquette of stopping and getting the hell out of the way.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

colinr said:


> I buried myself for the last two laps today to try to stay on the lead lap. Made it to the finish a solid 15 seconds ahead of the leader. Got pulled anyway.
> 
> Not a UCI race, just your average podunk "elite" race. I was less than pleased. Lazy-ass officials just didn't want to wait around for another six minutes.
> 
> But... I got over it. And realized that I do kinda suck sometimes.


Pretty much the exact same thing happened to me last year when I raced a USGP masters race. I knew I was in over my head, but my goal was not to get lapped, and I thought I had made it. Then got pulled on the finishing straight just before my last lap.

I was pissed, threw my helmet, yadda yadda, but I was mad at myself, not at the officials. It sucked at the time, but was great motivation during the off-season. If you want to race against the big boys, you have to be prepared to get spanked.


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## JPHcross (Aug 15, 2006)

In BC we have the rule in place for elite races only.
This make sense to me because we are trying to promote bigger participation through the B and C groups, so we let lapped riders race the entire duration of the race and mark them down as -1 or -2 laps etc, provided that you get lapped after the halfway point of the race. Getting lapped and then pulled with 1 or 2 laps left to go for a person who is new to the discipline does not help participation.


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

it helps if you are passing and letting people know you are the leader or are lapping them to yield. if they just think you were behind them, they are less likely to yield.


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## Derf (Jul 1, 2003)

I got lapped 50 feet from the finish line earlier this year. I moved over for the leader and he said thanks. I then slowed down so that I would not be in his finish line picture taken by a teammate. On my way past the line, the official said that I was done. I was bummed. But, I could not stay on the lead lap then so be it. I got to race for the same amount of time as the leader. Next time, I just will have to be faster.

Derf


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## ettore (Jun 9, 2008)

What a stupid rule. In every form of vehicle racing, getting lapped is part of the game ... and skill at passing important, ESPECIALLY if the person you're passing is an amateur (i.e. likely to do something unexpected). I race 24H races relatively often, and people are passing people left and right (even "I" pass people, so you know there are some real amateurs out there) ... people get along fine there, and the entire course is tight singletrack (essentially).

As I have read a few days ago on another forum, maybe they should just line everyone up on traners with powertaps. Give them 1 hour: whoever puts down the most power wins.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

ettore said:


> As I have read a few days ago on another forum, maybe they should just line everyone up on traners with powertaps. Give them 1 hour: whoever puts down the most power wins.


They have that, it's called a time trial.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

ettore said:


> What a stupid rule. In every form of vehicle racing, getting lapped is part of the game ... and skill at passing important, ESPECIALLY if the person you're passing is an amateur (i.e. likely to do something unexpected). I race 24H races relatively often, and people are passing people left and right (even "I" pass people, so you know there are some real amateurs out there) ... people get along fine there, and the entire course is tight singletrack (essentially).


The comparison to mtb racing is apt. For 24-hour events, and for amateur XC racing, there are multiple divisions racing at the same time, lots of lapping going on, and people deal with it.

For elite championship XC racing, however, the course is cleared and there is no lapping.


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## varmit (Mar 3, 2002)

*Changed mind about being pulled*

When I started racing, I used to hate being pulled from races. I had the mindset of " I have paid my money, let me race!" Then, a few years ago, after becoming a little faster, I was taken down hard (hospital visit) by a lapped rider being stupid: It was the finishing sprint with a bunch of about 35 to 40 riders coming around a big sweeping curve with 200 meters to go. The lapped rider decided to ride at 10 MPH in the middle of the course "to watch the sprint". From where I was in the bunch, he was hidden from sight, so I had no idea he was on the course. I saw a hole and jumped hard - and there he was, directly in front of me with people sprinting hard on both sides of me. In the 1/4 second of time to analyze the situation, I figured that the only way to save myself and not kill him was to lay my bike down-OUCH! The speed differential was so high, me and my bike passed under both his wheels, sort of like a moving speed bump. Somehow, the rest of the bunch missed us. The dude was clueless and gripped at me for running into him. ( he was not hurt ) I told him he was very lucky to be alive.

Since this day, I have not complained about being pulled.
Varmit


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## Albino (Mar 24, 2007)

mtbdcd said:


> But then again mtb riders seem more ready to pull aside and let a faster rider pass, and i believe there is a rule that addresses this too.


Some mtb'ers will rub your wheel or even "bump" the slower guy off the trail if they don't yield. I've seen expert mtb guys get in a big hurry, choose a bad line and loose more time than if they would have waited for the slower rider to come to a good place to pull over.

Anyway, about cx racing. Yes, getting pulled bites. But, as we can clearly see it's part of the game. My goal at Bats last year was to not get lapped and pulled. I knew that I might, but I still signed up all the same.

The races around here are not so large that we have problems with lapped riders so we don't have to deal with pulling anyone. But you guys in those parts of the country where the fields are HUGE, it's probably more of a reality and necessity. But, I'm sure you have better courses, sponsors, etc. Take what you've got, ride what you've brought. :thumbsup:


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

A question for the experienced CX racers out there:



When racing in a "Mixed group" with more than one category of racers EX: women + juniors...does a lapped rider get pulled:

(a) only when you are lapped by someone in your same racing category?
(b) when you are lapped by ANYONE?

If there are UCI or other regulatory body rules you can reference, it would be immensely appreciate.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

adimiro said:


> A question for the experienced CX racers out there:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any time you have mixed groups on the race course it's not UCI legal, so they have nothing to say about it. More importantly, I've never seen a mixed field in the US where racers were pulled. Any time fields are sharing a course, it's not a championship or elite event, and those are pretty much the only circumstances in which pulling occurs.

Reading this thread might make you think that pulling lapped riders is a universal standard in cross. It's not. The only time people get pulled is when (1) it's an elite race or (2) there are so many racers on course that officials are worried about the traffic problem/scoring problems caused by leaving lapped riders in. And even if (2) would apply to a mixed field, it's generally not done -- or at least I've never seen it.


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

Interesting that this thread popped back up. Did anybody see Vervecken almost catch up to a rider at the line when he won at Roubaix? Was that guy left in because he hadn't been lapped yet? Do they not pull riders on the last straight if they may interfere with the finish in UCI races? Maybe that guy slipped through the cracks.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

When I was pulled from a USGP race, it was as I was entering the final straightaway and the leaders were bearing down on me toward the finish.

I think guys that got lapped out on the course weren't pulled.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

colinr said:


> Reading this thread might make you think that pulling lapped riders is a universal standard in cross. It's not. .


Thanks for sharing your experience, but I searched the forum and posted this question because it recently happened to me and thus it prompted me to inquire further.

Appreciate if racers or race organizers could share any other procedures/experience at the "local" (not pro or elite) racing level.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

The whole getting pulled thing is a myth that somebody said"they did in Europe/at UCI races"
It was about the same time as the" no more than 2 steps in the pits" myth.

I've raced in Belgium and Holland for years and have been ( not raced) to several "big" races and World cups.....NO ONE was ever pulled!

And Colinr, it has happened a lot in New England, especially when the Juniors and masters raced together...or the women/juniors

Edit: I just saw where Jeremy Powers said he got pulled at Roubaix after he lost his shoe. I have seen people go 4 or 5 laps down and not get pulled over there.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

In Europe there is an unofficial get-lapped-get-pulled rule.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Really? Go to Europe much?

There is a UCI rule (5.1.051)that states riders lapped before the last lap will be pulled and marked with how many laps behind the leader they were.

But...I have never seen it enforced there....but Jeremy Powers said he was pulled in France.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

the mayor said:


> Really? Go to Europe much?


Relax.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

pretender said:


> When I was pulled from a USGP race, it was as I was entering the final straightaway and the leaders were bearing down on me toward the finish.
> 
> I think guys that got lapped out on the course weren't pulled.


I can see pulling someone who might interfere with the finish ( if I'm understanding you correctly)

As far as the other guys who were lapped,sadly, this happens a lot. I have seen guys 2 or 3 laps down at local NE events not get pulled when someone about to go 1 down gets pulled.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

pretender said:


> Relax.


Thanks,Franky, I think I will.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

the mayor said:


> I can see pulling someone who might interfere with the finish ( if I'm understanding you correctly)


Exactly. It was a bummer, because my goal was not to get lapped. But in retrospect it was good course marshaling.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

pretender said:


> Exactly. It was a bummer, because my goal was not to get lapped. But in retrospect it was good course marshaling.


Probably the only thing I'll get right today.And that is a bummer...so close, but yet...

At Gloucester a few years back, they started the Juniors 3 minutes a head of the Masters on a 5-6 minute /lap course. Jesse Anthony caught over half of the Masters and a lot of Masters ( who never would have been lapped by the lead master) got pulled. But there were guys 2 and 3 laps down who never got pulled...and very few Juniors got pulled.


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## izoard77 (Nov 26, 2008)

*NorCal lapped riders*

It's been our policy to have an army of judges and scorers getting carpal tunnel on stage in order to allow every athlete the chance to finish their race, no matter how far down they are from the leaders. We don;t pull lapped riders - we score all of them. When we did UCI events in '03/'04/'05 we of course followed UCI regulations and in the Elite events riders were subject to withdrawls at the discretion of the Chief Ref. Phil Miller was our Commie at USGP and another C1 event and he handled withdrawls to make racing for the win the ultimate consideration. None of our amateur events at those races was held under UCI regs so everybody got to play in our B's, C's, Single Speed and mucho Masters categories. 

We have had some short courses in the past, just barely 2,200 meters - 4:15 laps for Elite Men and that really compounds lapping. During our saturday course prep we try and make sure we've got reasonable passing opportunities within the available land - mow a few more feet of weeds on either side of the main lane but it's clearly not always possible. We consider our officiating team the monsters of the scoresheet!

We have been non-UCI since the '06 season and run our events as grass rooted as possible with the emphasis on competition and NorCal 'cross culture. Our judges have plenty of races with 100 or more competitors in different events (especially Masters and C & B Men) and it's our source of pride that they can produce timed results within 30 minutes of the finish in order to schedule prompt podium ceremonies. They have some very sore hands by the end of the day, however on those days of 500+ riders. 

I believe I speak for all of the NorCal/Nevada series - Central Coast, Sacramento, Peak Season, Surf City, Livermore, Santa Rosa, and Sagebrush - our judges and referees won't pull you if lapped. 

Tom Simpson
Pilarcitos Cycelsports


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