# SRAM Red....can only use half the cassette..



## foko (Sep 13, 2008)

Hey all, just got a new ride (Cervelo R3) with SRAM Red. Compact crank, 11-25 cassette.

In the small CR, I can only use the 5 largest rear cogs. At the 6th cog the FD starts to rub, and 7-10 are not useable at all.

Coming from an old Dura Ace 9 grouppo, I never had this sort of issue. Could use that set up fully crossed up if I wanted to....(small-small, large large). 

Is this an adjustment/installation problem, or is it designed that way??

I've done a fair amount of messing with the FD cable tension and throw limiters, but whenever I fix one problem, I mess something else up. 

Thanks for any advice.

Also, it would be nice to have some kind of barrel adjuster/inline adjuster on the front FD.....any recommendations on that?

Fabian


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

Sounds like a FD installation problem. If the FD is rotated slightly it could cause the described issue, or if the low stop isn't set properly. For adjustment, check out in-line barrel adjusters. Your LBS can get them from the QBP catalog (Jagwire, I think).


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## threshold350 (Jan 24, 2008)

I just picked up my BH G4 with Red and it's having the same issue as you described. It's a quick adjustment your LBS can fix. I haven't taken mine in yet, but I've ridden it a few more times and it's starting to rub less. Not sure if it's related to the cables stretching or what.


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## nelsonk (Jun 25, 2002)

I'm running all Red with a Force front deraileur. You should be able to get 7 cogs without rubbing in the small chainring. I get some noise in the 8th cog, not from the chain touching the front deraileur, but from the chain brushing against the inside of the large chainring because of the chain angle. You may need the adjust the front deraileur cage. There should be no more than 1mm of clearance between the chain and inner cage when on the easiest (largest) cog. If theres more than 1mm, you need to adjust the cage to the right. Hope this helps


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## Toona (Mar 8, 2006)

I noticed the same chain rub on my new Seven that was built- up with Sram Red. Have Force on my other bikes and a compact crank on all of them. With the Force, there is a slight rub when on the 34/11. I don't ride in this gear, but am using for a reference. With the Red, there is a slight rub on the 7th and 8,9,10 can't be used. The mechanic said that the Red group was designed for "racing", which means mostly in the large chain ring. That is why there is "trim" on only the large chain ring. The tolerances are also smaller, which leads to crisp shifting with the proper adjustment. He said if he adjusted for no rub on the 8,9,10 cog, there would be chain rub at the other end of the cassette, when on the big ring. I guess this will force me to shift to the big ring at the proper gear inch ratio.


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## foko (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm a bit worried that I really won't be able to fix this problem using SRAM Red.

Is this also an issue with Dura Ace and Campy these days? 

I hadn't bought a gruppo in about 10 years, and apparently I didn't research it quite enough. 

While I no longer race, I like the durability and precision of the high end gruppos. However, the inability to use almost half of the cogs is kind of a PITA. 

Toona, you mentioned that you used Force components on your other bikes. Do you have the same issue on the Force bike as the Red bike?

Fabian


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

foko said:


> Thanks for the replies so far. I'm a bit worried that I really won't be able to fix this problem using SRAM Red.
> 
> Is this also an issue with Dura Ace and Campy these days?
> 
> ...


This isn't a Red problem, nor a SRAM problem, or a Shimano problem, etc. It is an adjustment problem. Take it to your local bike shop and have them adjust it properly. You'll be glad you did, as Red is a terrific group.


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## foko (Sep 13, 2008)

Cyclo-phile said:


> This isn't a Red problem, nor a SRAM problem, or a Shimano problem, etc. It is an adjustment problem. Take it to your local bike shop and have them adjust it properly. You'll be glad you did, as Red is a terrific group.


I will be doing that, however, I want to be prepared when and if they say its perfectly adjusted and it still rubs.

Having said that, looking at the angles which the the chain leaves the chainring, as well as the width of the FD cage and its chain clearance, I don't see how it can't rub. It's relatively simple geometry. 

We shall see what they say.

Thx

Fabian


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Some people prefer SRAM Force or a Shimano front derailleur and report less rub (they work with Red shifters). If you give up on adjustments, it would be fairly inexpensive to try another derailleur.


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## smokva (Jul 21, 2004)

Can FD on SRAM be trimmed like on Campagnolo? ...I have never ridden SRAM on rad bike


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

foko said:


> I will be doing that, however, I want to be prepared when and if they say its perfectly adjusted and it still rubs.
> 
> Having said that, looking at the angles which the the chain leaves the chainring, as well as the width of the FD cage and its chain clearance, I don't see how it can't rub. It's relatively simple geometry.
> 
> ...


If you can't get at least 7 (if not 8) of the 10 cogs without rubbing, and they're telling you it's perfectly adjusted, you can justifiably call them a moreon and take it to a different shop.


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## sandman98 (May 12, 2008)

my advice...get your allen wrenches, download the sram manual/installation instructions from their website and take an hour (probably more like 20 minutes) to set up the front derailleur yourself. it is not that difficult, if you follow the instructions step by step. the overall benefit is learning a bit how these machines work, thus you will be better able to troubleshoot problems that occur while out on the road (i.e. 30 miles from home). 

fwiw, i can run all 10 cogs while in the large ring (no trim necessary), and the eight largest without noise/rub while in the small ring (34-50 compact in front, 11-25 in rear). 

try it yourself, ask questions on the bb here if you have trouble.


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## messyparrot (Sep 17, 2007)

foko said:


> I will be doing that, however, I want to be prepared when and if they say its perfectly adjusted and it still rubs.


It's a matter of skilz, I am always futzing around and changing things so I have had my Red adjusted several times lately and each time the shifting is a bit different. Sometimes I go out and ride and am not happy so back I go, they now know I won't leave until there is no or minimal rub.

They can do it, it just takes time.

BTW they are thinking of putting barrel adjusters on to make it easier as well..


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

OP, does your bike have really short chainstays?
.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Switch to a shimano chain, that made adjusting the front alot easier and the shifting was better too.


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## XR4Ti (Jul 8, 2008)

sandman98 said:


> my advice...get your allen wrenches, download the sram manual/installation instructions from their website and take an hour (probably more like 20 minutes) to set up the front derailleur yourself. it is not that difficult, if you follow the instructions step by step. the overall benefit is learning a bit how these machines work, thus you will be better able to troubleshoot problems that occur while out on the road (i.e. 30 miles from home).
> 
> fwiw, i can run all 10 cogs while in the large ring (no trim necessary), and the eight largest without noise/rub while in the small ring (34-50 compact in front, 11-25 in rear).
> 
> try it yourself, ask questions on the bb here if you have trouble.


Ditto all of this. It seems most that run Sram when properly tuned get the 10 and 8 (FYI, I'm running 11-26, 53/39).


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## foko (Sep 13, 2008)

So it sounds like it should work. I'm gonna grab the manual and try myself as suggested. If that doesn't work I'll try the shop...I trust myself more than the shop....just wanted to make sure I wasn't trying to do something that is not doable.

I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks for the advice.

F


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## sandman98 (May 12, 2008)

good for you to try it yourself.

you may have to play a bit with the rotation of the FD cage relative to the chainrings. i think most people set it up to use all (or nearly all) cogs while on the large chainring, sacrificing two (or maybe three) cogs on the small ring. 

also, it helps to loosen the high limit screw a bit before connecting and tensioning the cable (to ensure you have enough play to shift onto the large ring). then dial in the high limit screw once you know the chain shifts onto the large ring.

let us know how it goes.


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## rcordray (Jul 30, 2006)

Toona said:


> The mechanic said that the Red group was designed for "racing", which means mostly in the large chain ring. That is why there is "trim" on only the large chain ring. The tolerances are also smaller, which leads to crisp shifting with the proper adjustment. He said if he adjusted for no rub on the 8,9,10 cog, there would be chain rub at the other end of the cassette, when on the big ring..


Absolute BS.

I run a Force 34-50 crankset
Red 11-28 Cassette
Red Shifters
Red FD & RD
Sram chain

When properly set up, the only rubbing I ever get is on the 34-11 or the 50-28. I can eliminate the rub in the 50-28 by using the trim function on the FD.


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## foko (Sep 13, 2008)

Spent a lot of time tuning my FD. The SRAM website didn't have RED specific downloads, but I used their FORCE download for adjustment information. Why no RED??

Anyhow......NO WAY is that thing not gonna rub. There is just not enough room in the cage. Optimizing it one way, as close as possible, would yield rubbing in the other direction regardless of the angle on the cage. 

I adjusted the height per instructions. I adjusted and messed around a lot with the angle the cage makes with the chainrings. Ended up perfectly parallel.

Spoke with my high end LBS. They said they've kinda given up on the SRAM RED FD.

So I took matters into my own hands. Removed the screw at the back of the cage and put two small washers in there to "open up" the cage about 2 mm or so. Went back, and adjusted again. Now I get no rub in any of the big ring and can use 7 of 10 rear cogs in the small CR. Shifting is fine and brisk. 

The only thing I can figure is the chainstays on the Cervelo R3 are so short that the angles are greater than other bikes. Hard to imagine the top of the line SRAM is not going to work on a top of the line frame like a Cervelo, but......

So there you have it. I give it 3.5 out of 5 stars now. Not what it should be. I'll be trying another bike shop soon and see if they have any thoughts. I'll live with it for now, but it's just not what I'd expect from this level equipment.

Fabian


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## rcordray (Jul 30, 2006)

Like to know the size of your frame.
If really small, then perhaps your theory of shorter chainstays is correct.

But, I just don't believe a manufacturer of high-end gruppos would release a product that only allows minimal use of all the rear cogs. Sram Red took the top three podium spots of the TdF this year. No pro would accept such limited performance.

Mine works really well on an 11-28 cassette with a 34-50 Compact Crank. As I stated, I get a tiny rub on my 50/28 combo which is alleviated completely by clicking the FD trim function. Granted, the 28-tooth cog is quite a bit taller than it's neighbor so clearance may be helped there, and pros would likely not use an 11-28.

The other end of the shift spectrum, the 34/11 rubs a little as well, but by then, it's time I should be in the 50-tooth chainring anyway.

I am fully able to use 9 cogs noise-free on either chainring.

I ride a larger Orbea Opal, a 60cm frame, so perhaps the longer geometry is indeed the case. But once again, there are some really small pros on the circuit, many riding Cervelos.


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

rcordray said:


> Like to know the size of your frame.
> If really small, then perhaps your theory of shorter chainstays is correct.


The R3 has a listed chainstay length of only 399 mm. Your Opal is listed at 408mm. I just ordered a Rival-equipped Neuvation with 405mm chainstays and I'm now a little concerned about this issue too...

Asad


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## rcordray (Jul 30, 2006)

My son, considerably smaller than me, rides a 54cm Orbea Onix with a 1st generation Sram Rival drivetrain. He has a 34/50 compact with 172mm crankarms, and uses a 12-27 cassette. I asked him about this issue and he reports rubbing in only the 50/27 and 34/12. Certainly nothing like the OP's experience.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

I have old campy Daytona 10 speed on my other bike and I get zero rub on any gear combination. I have had my 2010 force in twice for rub and it still has issues in the small chain ring, better in the large. I have yet to really ride the bike in the small chain ring. It is annoying and I am sure I will get it figured out, but heck, why is this so difficult?


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## foko (Sep 13, 2008)

It is odd to have such diverging experiences. 

BTW my Cervelo R3 is a 54 cm.

Also agree that no pro would accept a drivetrain like this, of course most pros don't run compact cranks and I'm not sure how much that has to do with this problem.

Also you can never be sure that what the pros get is the same spec as the stuff they sell to joe blow.

Fabian


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## rcordray (Jul 30, 2006)

I'm sorry that you are having these issues. Reminds me of the years of grief I had running an Ultegra triple. Could not get the FD to find the middle chainring on up or down shifting. I had top wrenches at shops all over Los Angeles adjust this over and over with no satisfactory result. That frustration is what led me to embrace the compact crank with a wide-range rear casette.

I have loudly championed Sram road gruppos since they first came on the market. I started with 1st generation Force as soon as I saw it on the market. Since then, I have upgraded shifters, derailleurs, and cassette to Red with continued satisfied results.

Try contacting Sram customer service in Chicago
When Force brakes were recalled early in the product rollout, I spoke to a customer service rep who could not have been more helpful. I had heard about the recall earlier than my bike shop wrenches had. Sram customer service FedExed new Force brakes overnight.

I had another front brake warranty issue this year. Same deal: they FedExed a new front brakeset to my LBS overnight.

I'm pretty sure you could get someone on the phone there that will be sympathetic to this issue. They stand behind their products from my experience.

Best of luck and don't give up. I believe wholeheartedly that this issue can be resolved in your favor.


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## Professor funk (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm running Sram Red on a C-50 and it took a few attempts to get the FD right. There's no trim on the small ring, so set it with that in mind, and angle the cage slightly outwards, too. I found that helped somewhat.

It can be set properly, and when it's right, it's great. I could (though I don't) fully cross mine without any trim on the front.


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## CLTracer (Aug 21, 2004)

SRAM Red, when properly adjusted will only rub at the extreme angles. Little/little and big/big. Just the top or bottom cog. Normally it's the angle of the front derailleur that's the culprit.


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## threshold350 (Jan 24, 2008)

Took the G4 in and had them adjust the shifting. The rubbing is now gone. I mainly ride in the small ring and there was no rub. When I switch to the big ring, I may get a slight rub when moving up to the biggest cog. Let's just say it's not loud enough for me to notice since my huffing and puffing is louder


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