# BikesDirect Motobecane Titanium Bikes



## JasonB176

I want a third bike of a different frame material than the aluminum and steel I already have. I’ve decided I’d prefer to get titanium rather than carbon and with a budget topping out around $2500 this had led me to the BikesDirect option.

I have seen positive feedback about the company in various threads and have read some positive reviews of their various Motobecane Ti models. However, I am nervous about ordering a bike that I have never ridden through the mail. I have a size 53 in Jamis and a 54 in Specialized. Motobecanes jump from 53 to 56 so my only option would be the 53, correct? Would there be enough tweaking possible with the seat and stem that I could be sure of a good fit? How much of a risk is it to buy a bike without first riding it?

These are their Ti bikes:
Save up to 60% off Road Bikes, Titanium Road Bikes, Dura Ace Road Bikes, Ultegra Road Bikes - bikesdirect.com

Of those first five models, can someone offer feedback of their strengths/weaknesses for the cost differences? I’ve never ridden with SRAM components. Is the Red group durable and worth the upgrade from Ultegra? I’m not concerned particularly about grams of difference as I don’t race but want sustained functional durability. 

Are the Kysrium Elites worth the extra cost over the Equipes? I have Kysrium SLs on my Jamis and remain impressed with them but am unsure whether such quality is maintained throughout the Kysrium line.

I would be having my LBS assemble it assuming they would accept the business without the bike being bought there.

Sorry for all the questions but I’d really appreciate some input on this process. This will likely be my last bike purchase for a very long time and I want to take all the steps I can to ensure its success!

Thanks!


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## mopartodd

Look at the dimensions/geometry of the bikes you have now to help with the sizing of the BD bike.


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## Joe the biker

First do not lie to yourself. You will get the itch to buy a new bike before "a very long time". 

I started using SRAM Red components on my latest bike and love them. I originally was going to go with the Force grouppo but found a killer deal on the Red so I went with that. My understanding is that the Red upgrade is mainly tied to weight and bling factor.

I don't have any experience with BikesDirect. I did find a used Ti bike through the RBR classifeds and was very happy with the bang for the buck.


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## LongIslandTom

I own a BD LeChampion Titanium Heat, purchased in March 2011. 










(photo album: titanium hybrid - a set on Flickr )

I duplicated the fit of my old bike onto the LeChamp Ti by using the Effective Top Tube measurement of my old bike, which is 565mm. The closest LeChamp Ti to that was the 56cm frame, which had an ETT of 572mm.

The fit was darn near identical to my old bike after I swapped in a stem that is 10mm shorter, and put on the seatpost and seat that is identical from my old bike. (the Ritchey seatpost and seat that came stock on the LeChamp Ti has too much setback for my comfort).

It's a very comfy bike once I got my fit dialed in. Put 2000 miles on the bike so far and the only issue I had was the SRAM GXP bottom bracket crapping out (not BD's fault-- I lay this one squarely on SRAM's doorstep). Replaced it with a Chris King BB and it's been flawless. Of all my bikes this one is my favorite. Tough, corrosion-resistant, easy to maintain (especially with the Chris King BB and the grease injector tool), and I like the ride quality even better than my old carbon bike.

As far as the component groups go, SRAM's DoubleTap shifting system does take a bit getting used to if you are accustomed to riding Shimano STI.

The chief difference between SRAM Red vs. lower groups like Force, Rival and Apex is the Zero-Loss shifting on the Red, which makes the shifting throw shorter. (Force has Zero-Loss on the right shifter for the RD only, no Zero-Loss on the front).

I put Ksyrium SLs on my bike (see my flickr album). The Ksyrium Elite is essentially the same rim as the Ksyrium SL but with different hubs, so the Elite is 50 grams heavier for the wheelset. If I had to buy my wheels all over again I would have gone for the Elites rather than the SLs.

I assembled the bike and did all the maintenance myself. This was the first bike I bought which I did all the work myself without going to the LBS.


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## froze

Don't forget that this forum has a review tab, click on that tab, then click on the manufacture tab, scan down till you find Motobecane and click, then simply find whichever bike you're interested in and read the reviews.

I've read other forums on these TI bikes and so far I haven't read any complaints. The only real upgrade that some riders are suggesting is to find a set of lighter wheels, but that's true with just about any fully equipped mid end bike, and the pedals and the seat were also questioned by a few. Motobecane is offering a TI frame for a very low cost so they had to save money in some areas, only goes to reason. So if at some point you decide to upgrade those weaker components then you have a great frame to do that on. 

One of the reviewers I read was even racing on his, not sure if it was this forum or another, he loved it for racing on. So I would assume based on that review that the frame is adequately built to handle racing, which means it's more then adequately built for the everyday rider that doesn't race.


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## JasonB176

mopartodd said:


> Look at the dimensions/geometry of the bikes you have now to help with the sizing of the BD bike.


All signs are pointing to the 53.



Joe the biker said:


> First do not lie to yourself. You will get the itch to buy a new bike before "a very long time".
> 
> I started using SRAM Red components on my latest bike and love them. I originally was going to go with the Force grouppo but found a killer deal on the Red so I went with that. My understanding is that the Red upgrade is mainly tied to weight and bling factor.
> 
> I don't have any experience with BikesDirect. I did find a used Ti bike through the RBR classifeds and was very happy with the bang for the buck.


Haha, I'm sure the "itch" might return but it's been 9 years since I bought my last bike and this will be my last hurrah before my wife and I have our first child (he's due in February) and luxury expenditures will be cut to the bone.



LongIslandTom said:


> I own a BD LeChampion Titanium Heat, purchased in March 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (photo album: titanium hybrid - a set on Flickr )
> 
> I duplicated the fit of my old bike onto the LeChamp Ti by using the Effective Top Tube measurement of my old bike, which is 565mm. The closest LeChamp Ti to that was the 56cm frame, which had an ETT of 572mm.
> 
> The fit was darn near identical to my old bike after I swapped in a stem that is 10mm shorter, and put on the seatpost and seat that is identical from my old bike. (the Ritchey seatpost and seat that came stock on the LeChamp Ti has too much setback for my comfort).
> 
> It's a very comfy bike once I got my fit dialed in. Put 2000 miles on the bike so far and the only issue I had was the SRAM GXP bottom bracket crapping out (not BD's fault-- I lay this one squarely on SRAM's doorstep). Replaced it with a Chris King BB and it's been flawless. Of all my bikes this one is my favorite. Tough, corrosion-resistant, easy to maintain (especially with the Chris King BB and the grease injector tool), and I like the ride quality even better than my old carbon bike.
> 
> As far as the component groups go, SRAM's DoubleTap shifting system does take a bit getting used to if you are accustomed to riding Shimano STI.
> 
> The chief difference between SRAM Red vs. lower groups like Force, Rival and Apex is the Zero-Loss shifting on the Red, which makes the shifting throw shorter. (Force has Zero-Loss on the right shifter for the RD only, no Zero-Loss on the front).
> 
> I put Ksyrium SLs on my bike (see my flickr album). The Ksyrium Elite is essentially the same rim as the Ksyrium SL but with different hubs, so the Elite is 50 grams heavier for the wheelset. If I had to buy my wheels all over again I would have gone for the Elites rather than the SLs.
> 
> I assembled the bike and did all the maintenance myself. This was the first bike I bought which I did all the work myself without going to the LBS.


Thanks for your analysis. That's a bit disconcerting about the BB. I wonder if the other models besides the Heat have the same one... Almost everyone seems to dislike the seatpost and seat. I had the replace the seat on my Jamis. It seems to be an area where bike manufacturers like to skimp.

I assume the DoubleTap system is self-explanatory even if it takes some time to get used. I've read that some still prefer Shimano whereas others like SRAM.

The wheel choices at bikesdirect come down to Aksium, Elite or Equipe. I'd like the Elite but would consider the others.



froze said:


> Don't forget that this forum has a review tab, click on that tab, then click on the manufacture tab, scan down till you find Motobecane and click, then simply find whichever bike you're interested in and read the reviews.
> 
> I've read other forums on these TI bikes and so far I haven't read any complaints. The only real upgrade that some riders are suggesting is to find a set of lighter wheels, but that's true with just about any fully equipped mid end bike, and the pedals and the seat were also questioned by a few. Motobecane is offering a TI frame for a very low cost so they had to save money in some areas, only goes to reason. So if at some point you decide to upgrade those weaker components then you have a great frame to do that on.
> 
> One of the reviewers I read was even racing on his, not sure if it was this forum or another, he loved it for racing on. So I would assume based on that review that the frame is adequately built to handle racing, which means it's more then adequately built for the everyday rider that doesn't race.


I did look through those reviews. I'm just searching for all the feedback I can get further before making this purchase. The main thing so far is that people seem happy with the titanium frame and there are few places to get one this cheap.


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## LongIslandTom

JasonB176 said:


> Thanks for your analysis. That's a bit disconcerting about the BB. I wonder if the other models besides the Heat have the same one... Almost everyone seems to dislike the seatpost and seat. I had the replace the seat on my Jamis. It seems to be an area where bike manufacturers like to skimp.
> 
> I assume the DoubleTap system is self-explanatory even if it takes some time to get used. I've read that some still prefer Shimano whereas others like SRAM.
> 
> The wheel choices at bikesdirect come down to Aksium, Elite or Equipe. I'd like the Elite but would consider the others.


I wouldn't worry about the BB. All of the external outboard bearing BB systems like FSA MegaExo, SRAM GXP, Shimano Hollowtech II, and even Campy UltraTorque may develop bearing issues after just a short period of use, due to the exposed nature of the outboard bearings. Unlike the old internal cartridge BB systems which have the bearings deep inside the frame's BB shell, outboard bearings are exposed to all the water, mud, grit, sand and other debris thrown up by your front wheel. So I'm not surprised at all that the SRAM GXP BB on my LeChamp Ti Heat crapped out after 2 months of use.

If yours do crap out, use it as an opportunity to upgrade to a better BB with better-sealed bearings. Third-party manufacturers like Hope, Chris King, etc. all offer BBs that will work with either Shimano/MegaExo or SRAM GXP. I went with the Chris King for the ease of maintenance. I expect the Chris King will be the very last BB I will ever need to buy for my bike.

The Red-equipped LeChamp Ti uses SRAM's Black Box Ceramic BBs, which I don't think is worth the extra cost at all (also lots of reports of that BB crapping out after a short period of use). It is just as much of a hassle to maintain as the lower-end steel-ball SRAM GXP BBs (you have to tear out the seals on the bearings if you want to clean and regrease them). The only reason IMHO to buy a Red-equipped bike is for the full set of Zero-Loss shifters.

I do love how easy it is to install or take off SRAM's GXP cranks though, with just an 8mm allen key. Combine that with the Chris King BB, and I have the easiest set of BB/cranks that an end user can service and maintain.

As far as seats and seatposts go, saddle choice is highly personal-- Everyone has a slightly different butt, and there are absolutely no guarantees that a factory seat will be comfortable for any one person. I ALWAYS buy a bike under the assumption that I will have to replace the seat!


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## froze

Hope talk about their seals and CK talks about their ease of maintenance. Does anyone know which BB is the best one for longevity? Isn't the CK BB the one with the grease injector port? So one could be reasonable in assuming that the CK should be the most reliable since you can keep the grease very clean?

The cycling industry had gone crazy, they make an external bearing system that offers more oppurtunity for problems then staying with the old true and tried internal bearing system that had very few problems.


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## LongIslandTom

Yup.. Chris King is the one that you can service with a grease injector tool-- No need to remove the bearing seals to clean and relube it. With the grease injector tool, you inject fresh grease which at the same time purges the old dirty grease from the BB.

I heard that some other third-party component makers are also offering BBs that can be serviced with grease injector tools, but so far CK is the one I know for sure that has one.

When my SRAM Rival GXP BB developed problems, I was contemplating replacing it with a $195 SRAM Black Box GXP ceramic BB, or the Chris King for approximately $120 + $40 for the grease injector tool. Then I read the reviews for the Black Box GXP ceramic BBs: SRAM GXP Blackbox Ceramic BB Cups Bottom Brackets Reviews

The choice was easy after that. I went for the Chris King + injector tool. 

The only thing with the CK is that you have to use the same chemistry grease as the factory grease already in the BB. If you mix two different grease types (such as mixing Lithium grease with Polyurea grease), the grease will break down and may ruin the bearings.

I think the CK comes pre-packed with polyurea grease. (I sent them an email. We'll see what they say).


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## JasonB176

I went all out and got the Champion Team Titanium:
Titanium Road Bikes, Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti

This will seriously be my last splurge so I just went for it. Part of it was me being reluctant to try SRAM so I got DuraAce with the Team. I also was reluctant to go with the compact cranks of the lower priced models. The other part was really wanting the Elite wheels rather than the Equipes or Aksiums.

Wish me luck that the size 53 will fit me well!


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## LongIslandTom

Congrats! I'm sure you will enjoy your LeChamp Ti as much as I enjoy mine.


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## Jim52

You'll love this bike! I do! And I'm 5' 9", and the 53 fits me great!


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## froze

Your last splurge? If that was your last splurge your first splurge must have been something to behold! Just kidding! Seriously, congrats, it's a great bike from everything I've read about it, you'll be riding that bike for the rest of your life...and then probably hand it down to grand kid!!


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## LongIslandTom

Froze:

Follow-up: I just heard back from Evan Gaspar, the product rep at Chris King.

He says a Polyurea-based grease like Park Tool Polylube is compatible with the factory-packed grease already in the BB.

I got a 14-oz. tube of Exxon Mobil's Polyrex EM, which is a top-of-the-line Polyurea grease. Should be enough for injecting my Chris King BB at least 20 times (10 years of use if I regrease every 6 months). 

Also, the only other external-bearing bottom bracket system I could find that uses a grease injector tool is the Pace RC80, but it appears to be available only in Great Britain.

I'm looking forward to many years of trouble-free service from my Chris King BB!


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## froze

LongIslandTom said:


> Froze:
> 
> Follow-up: I just heard back from Evan Gaspar, the product rep at Chris King.
> 
> He says a Polyurea-based grease like Park Tool Polylube is compatible with the factory-packed grease already in the BB.
> 
> I got a 14-oz. tube of Exxon Mobil's Polyrex EM, which is a top-of-the-line Polyurea grease. Should be enough for injecting my Chris King BB at least 20 times (10 years of use if I regrease every 6 months).
> 
> Also, the only other external-bearing bottom bracket system I could find that uses a grease injector tool is the Pace RC80, but it appears to be available only in Great Britain.
> 
> I'm looking forward to many years of trouble-free service from my Chris King BB!


That was good info, thanks for sharing it. I like the fact the Chris King has the injector system, this should allow the BB bearings to last a very long time assuming of course a person maintains it.


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## flatsix911

JasonB176 said:


> I went all out and got the Champion Team Titanium:
> Titanium Road Bikes, Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti
> 
> This will seriously be my last splurge so I just went for it. Part of it was me being reluctant to try SRAM so I got DuraAce with the Team. I also was reluctant to go with the compact cranks of the lower priced models. The other part was really wanting the Elite wheels rather than the Equipes or Aksiums.
> 
> Wish me luck that the size 53 will fit me well!


Congratulation on your new Ti ride:thumbsup:
Post a few photos of the completed build.


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## marcalans

Congratulations! I hope that you really enjoy it. (I'm considering the LC Fire, despite the gaudy red decals.) It would be great if you would post some pics and a review comparing the ride and handling to your other bikes. 

Remember that, if the size is not right, you can return it within 30 days. It might be a good idea to video the unboxing so that you can repack everything exactly the same way, if necessary -- hopefully not through.


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## JasonB176

Thanks everyone. My bike is on its way and due to arrive at the UPS facility by late on Friday. I've arranged to pick it up there as I'm not usually home during the week. Hopefully by Monday evening I will have it! I'll take plenty of photos pre-build and post-build and, of course, give a full ride report.


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## JasonB176

I picked it up today and the box was in pristine condition. I opened it enough to check things out but plan on having my LBS put it together so I didn't take everything all the way out. What's up with all the reflectors and the frisbee next to the cassette in back? Are there some regulations that require them to put these things with it? I guess I can understand the reflectors (though they'll definitely be removed from my bike) but can't fathom the reason they put the frisbee on unless there is some regulation that requires it.

Hopefully the build will be complete by the middle of next week!


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## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I picked it up today and the box was in pristine condition. I opened it enough to check things out but plan on having my LBS put it together so I didn't take everything all the way out. What's up with all the reflectors and the frisbee next to the cassette in back? Are there some regulations that require them to put these things with it? I guess I can understand the reflectors (though they'll definitely be removed from my bike) but can't fathom the reason they put the frisbee on unless there is some regulation that requires it.
> 
> Hopefully the build will be complete by the middle of next week!


Refectors are required by law, thus their on all bikes, good news is you can remove them.

The "frisbee" can also be removed, either the LBS can do it or you can. But it's designed to prevent the chain from slipping off first gear and falling between the gear and the spokes eating the spokes, but that would only happen if the derailleur is not adjusted correctly. But being a cross bike and the potential of banging around off road that problem could come up more then on the road.


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## LongIslandTom

Any reason why you don't want to put it together yourself?

Out of the box, to put together my LeChamp Ti Heat, all I had to do was:

- Put the front wheel on and tighten the quick-release.

- bolt the handlebar onto the stem.

- grease the seatpost, insert into seat tube, tighten seat post clamp.

- inflate tires.

- ??

- profit.


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> Refectors are required by law, thus their on all bikes, good news is you can remove them.
> 
> The "frisbee" can also be removed, either the LBS can do it or you can. But it's designed to prevent the chain from slipping off first gear and falling between the gear and the spokes eating the spokes, but that would only happen if the derailleur is not adjusted correctly. But being a cross bike and the potential of banging around off road that problem could come up more then on the road.


When I got my Jamis Eclipse new, it didn't have a single reflector nor the frisbee so I was thinking higher end bikes perhaps were spared these additions. I know the purpose of the frisbee but it looks atrocious and shouldn't be needed. My mountain bikes have never had them either.



LongIslandTom said:


> Any reason why you don't want to put it together yourself?
> 
> Out of the box, to put together my LeChamp Ti Heat, all I had to do was:
> 
> - Put the front wheel on and tighten the quick-release.
> 
> - bolt the handlebar onto the stem.
> 
> - grease the seatpost, insert into seat tube, tighten seat post clamp.
> 
> - inflate tires.
> 
> - ??
> 
> - profit.


I suck at mechanical stuff. I'm thinking that there may need to be adjustments made and I'd rather start with a professional build. I also wouldn't know how to remove the frisbee short of cutting it off.


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## froze

JasonB176 said:


> When I got my Jamis Eclipse new, it didn't have a single reflector nor the frisbee so I was thinking higher end bikes perhaps were spared these additions. I know the purpose of the frisbee but it looks atrocious and shouldn't be needed. My mountain bikes have never had them either.
> 
> 
> 
> I suck at mechanical stuff. I'm thinking that there may need to be adjustments made and I'd rather start with a professional build. I also wouldn't know how to remove the frisbee short of cutting it off.


All the bikes at any LBS have reflectors except for Tri bikes...that I've noticed anyways.

I do some light touring, eventually will become heavy touring when I retire, and the handful of people that I know that tour most have either kept their frisbee's on or had them put on. There is a remote chance, notice the key word remote, that should a derailleur go out of adjustment while touring and you don't notice it...until you go for first gear, then the chain drops between first gear and the spokes, breaking who knows how many, but regardless stranding you on the side of the road. You don't want that to happen touring, so you try to eliminate as many problems as possible, and the frisbee eliminates that problem. This frisbee is really more essential with old school friction shifters, such as one of my touring bikes, then it is with index shifting as my other touring bike has, but the possibility is still there howbeit very remote.

Like I said earlier though, if the bike will not be used for touring then don't worry about and get rid of it, just make sure you keep your bike well maintained and adjusted which is something you should be doing all the time anyways.

It's ok if you suck at mechanical stuff. But just keep the bike maintained, which means every year at the beginning of the cycling season (usually about a month before to beat the rush) take it in and have it gone over. But learn to, if you haven't already learned, to keep the chain clean and lubricated well. Either buy a repair book or go on line to repair sites such as these:

Bicycle Tutor - Bike Repair Video Tutorials
Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog
Bicycle Bike Noises, Clicks, Ticks, Creaks, Clunks, Knocks Repair by Jim Langley
http://www.bikewebsite.com/index.htm

Start out doing the simplest repairs first then slowly move into more complicated stuff. Some problems you may incur may seem difficult like weird noises, but if you look at the web sites I gave you you may find an easy check and discover that the check and the fix worked! Of course you can always post on this forum for advice on any repair. But above all else, take the bike in for annual tuneup every year if you're not comfortable with doing it yourself, this will prolong the life of the components so that the money you spend on tuneups in the long run will be cheaper and less headaches then having to replace parts due to failure to maintain said parts.

At least become very good at repairing flats, this includes patching. I use glueless patches because it eliminates the gluing process thus it's faster and simpler. You can ask about what to carry on rides on another post if you're not sure. But I think you've been riding for a while so you probably already know what to carry and how to fix a flat.


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## froze

By the way, here is a post where a person's index shifting bike fell out of adjustment and the chain slipped between the first gear and the spokes breaking the chain (the spoke broke later, probably due to the chain cutting a spoke enough to delay it breaking for a bi), this just happened, very timely I thought. There is no dork disk on this guys bike which would have prevented this:

Seeking Advise


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> All the bikes at any LBS have reflectors except for Tri bikes...that I've noticed anyways.
> 
> I do some light touring, eventually will become heavy touring when I retire, and the handful of people that I know that tour most have either kept their frisbee's on or had them put on. There is a remote chance, notice the key word remote, that should a derailleur go out of adjustment while touring and you don't notice it...until you go for first gear, then the chain drops between first gear and the spokes, breaking who knows how many, but regardless stranding you on the side of the road. You don't want that to happen touring, so you try to eliminate as many problems as possible, and the frisbee eliminates that problem. This frisbee is really more essential with old school friction shifters, such as one of my touring bikes, then it is with index shifting as my other touring bike has, but the possibility is still there howbeit very remote.
> 
> Like I said earlier though, if the bike will not be used for touring then don't worry about and get rid of it, just make sure you keep your bike well maintained and adjusted which is something you should be doing all the time anyways.
> 
> It's ok if you suck at mechanical stuff. But just keep the bike maintained, which means every year at the beginning of the cycling season (usually about a month before to beat the rush) take it in and have it gone over. But learn to, if you haven't already learned, to keep the chain clean and lubricated well. Either buy a repair book or go on line to repair sites such as these:
> 
> Bicycle Tutor - Bike Repair Video Tutorials
> Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog
> Bicycle Bike Noises, Clicks, Ticks, Creaks, Clunks, Knocks Repair by Jim Langley
> http://www.bikewebsite.com/index.htm
> 
> Start out doing the simplest repairs first then slowly move into more complicated stuff. Some problems you may incur may seem difficult like weird noises, but if you look at the web sites I gave you you may find an easy check and discover that the check and the fix worked! Of course you can always post on this forum for advice on any repair. But above all else, take the bike in for annual tuneup every year if you're not comfortable with doing it yourself, this will prolong the life of the components so that the money you spend on tuneups in the long run will be cheaper and less headaches then having to replace parts due to failure to maintain said parts.
> 
> At least become very good at repairing flats, this includes patching. I use glueless patches because it eliminates the gluing process thus it's faster and simpler. You can ask about what to carry on rides on another post if you're not sure. But I think you've been riding for a while so you probably already know what to carry and how to fix a flat.


Thanks for links. I am diligent at caring for the chains and other components. I fix my own flats but have always done so by replacing the tube. I do carry patches just in case I hit really bad luck and get two flats on one ride.

I've also trued wheels in the past but have not attempted it on Ksyriums which fortunately rarely need it.

I am bringing the new bike into to my LBS this afternoon and they've promised it will be complete and frisbee-free by the end of the day. I'll post pics!

I've been having to use my beater the last few rides as we've had October snow here in Massachusetts. Hopefully I'll be able to try the new Ti bike before winter really sets in.


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## JasonB176

*Champion Team Titanium*

I picked up the bike when it was already dusk so I couldn't take a photo outside and the lighting inside is horrendous in my house.


















Some observations:
I foolishly didn't look into the pedal situation and for some reason thought the pedals that came with it are Look compatible. Nope. So, I'll have to order Look pedals before I'll be able to test ride it. My other two bikes have them so it makes sense to make the third interchangeable with the existing two. 

The stem has a really sharp angle! The guy at the LBS thought so too. I'm comparing it with the Heat pictured earlier in this thread and the Heat appears to have a nearly flat stem. He lowered it by one space when I came to pick it up. He said something about cutting the stem after I decide exactly where I want it.....? I had never heard of that before but I guess he thought it sticks out too much.

This is a symptom of the angled stem but the drops are pointing downward to such an extent, I'm likely to feel like my hands will slip off them.

The wheels are perfectly true.

He said the derailleurs needed adjustment. I'm glad I had that done because the frisbee is thankfully gone.

The lettering is the same color as the bike instead of black like the Heat pictured above.

The guy at my LBS asked the price and was really impressed when I told him. He couldn't get over the wheelset that came with it.

It is really light!

Good thing I have two other bikes as it will still be a while before I can ride it. Grrr...

The box definitely said size 53 but I can't find a decal that states that which I found surprising. My other bikes have had this. When I straddle the bike, I have a good amount of clearance. I thought the 53 was going to be bigger based on what's been said. I'm very glad I didn't get the 51!


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## LongIslandTom

> The stem has a really sharp angle! The guy at the LBS thought so too. I'm comparing it with the Heat pictured earlier in this thread and the Heat appears to have a nearly flat stem.


LOL, that's because I flipped the stem on my LeChamp Ti Heat.. That's why the stem looks almost level in my photo. 

Yes, that Ritchie stem is flippable. I'm a bit puzzled your LBS mechanic didn't know about that!

From one LeChamp Ti owner to another, congrats! :thumbsup:


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## BluesDawg

froze said:


> This frisbee is really more essential with old school friction shifters, such as one of my touring bikes, then it is with index shifting as my other touring bike has, but the possibility is still there howbeit very remote.


Why would a dork disc be more necessary with friction shifters? The limit screws on derailleurs work exactly the same regardless of what kind of shifters are used.


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## JasonB176

LongIslandTom said:


> LOL, that's because I flipped the stem on my LeChamp Ti Heat.. That's why the stem looks almost level in my photo.
> 
> Yes, that Ritchie stem is flippable. I'm a bit puzzled your LBS mechanic didn't know about that!
> 
> From one LeChamp Ti owner to another, congrats! :thumbsup:


Thanks! 

Have you seen some builds with the stem flipped in the direction mine is? I think I'll give it a go like this because it would mean less bending forward which is better for my back. I can always have it flipped the other way.

Just ordered my Look pedals tonight... They are all named "Keo" now. Hopefully the cleat system is compatible will my older PP206 pedals.


----------



## LongIslandTom

Yeah, some people wanted to have the handlebar higher (to sit more upright), so they have the stem pointed upwards and all the steerer spacers stacked underneath the stem to maximize handlebar height.

If you flip the stem, the stem will be pointed more downwards, which will make the handlebar lower. That's what I did on my Ti Heat.

BTW: You could have swapped the Look pedals from one of your other bikes onto the Ti to give it a test ride, you know.


----------



## marcalans

*Comments on new LC Ti*



JasonB176 said:


> He said something about cutting the stem after I decide exactly where I want it.....? I had never heard of that before but I guess he thought it sticks out too much.


Cut the stem? Are you sure he didn't mean cut the steerer? That would make a lot more sense.

Anyway, congratulations on the bike! I think I do like the outline decals more than the solid. Did you weigh it out of the box before pedals? It would be great if you could get back to us with a sizing report after some test rides since fit seems to be a big issue with these bikes.


----------



## froze

marcalans said:


> Cut the stem? Are you sure he didn't mean cut the steerer? That would make a lot more sense.
> 
> Anyway, congratulations on the bike! I think I do like the outline decals more than the solid. Did you weigh it out of the box before pedals? It would be great if you could get back to us with a sizing report after some test rides since fit seems to be a big issue with these bikes.


People who followed the fit advice given by Bikes Direct have had very few fit issues, no more then getting a production bike at an LBS. Any time you buy a production bike there will be some dialing in to get it to fit perfect. But if that's the "big" issue with those TI bikes then the owners are going to be really happy with those bikes.


----------



## Mike Overly

Beautiful bike -- much nicer with the "hollow" stickers.

Now, as others have intimated, go invest ten bucks in a set of Allen key wrenches. A bike store guy who doesn't know stems can be flipped isn't doing you any favors, and you can flip the stem, borrow pedals from one of your other bikes, and be riding your Moto after 20 minutes of pretty simple wrench turning. (Programming Note: Left pedals are reverse threaded ).


----------



## JasonB176

LongIslandTom said:


> Yeah, some people wanted to have the handlebar higher (to sit more upright), so they have the stem pointed upwards and all the steerer spacers stacked underneath the stem to maximize handlebar height.
> 
> If you flip the stem, the stem will be pointed more downwards, which will make the handlebar lower. That's what I did on my Ti Heat.
> 
> BTW: You could have swapped the Look pedals from one of your other bikes onto the Ti to give it a test ride, you know.


I had this same bike shop flip the stem on my Jamis to the more upright position and I like riding it way better this way. Granted, its angle is not as extreme as the Champion but I still want to try the Champion with its stem the way it is now before making any adjustments. I don't ride in the drops that much anyway so the slipping probably wouldn't be that big of an issue.

Yes, I could switch pedals but I'm waiting for the salt to disappear off the streets anyway so would probably have not ridden the Ti for a few days. Hopefully my new pedals will be here by then.



marcalans said:


> Cut the stem? Are you sure he didn't mean cut the steerer? That would make a lot more sense.
> 
> Anyway, congratulations on the bike! I think I do like the outline decals more than the solid. Did you weigh it out of the box before pedals? It would be great if you could get back to us with a sizing report after some test rides since fit seems to be a big issue with these bikes.


Thanks!

Yes, the STEERER, doh! I was in a bit of a daze when I went to pick it up. Honestly, I don't even know what the steerer is compared to the stem, LOL.

No, I didn't weigh it. I can just say that my subjective impression is that it is very light.

I will definitely give a complete report of my impressions of the sizing for the 53 but, as mentioned above, my initial feeling is that I got the right size based on just sitting on it. I feel the 51 would have been too small.



froze said:


> People who followed the fit advice given by Bikes Direct have had very few fit issues, no more then getting a production bike at an LBS. Any time you buy a production bike there will be some dialing in to get it to fit perfect. But if that's the "big" issue with those TI bikes then the owners are going to be really happy with those bikes.


I agree. At least up to this point, I have nothing but good things to say about Bikes Direct. They were responsive to my request to alter the UPS delivery and got the bike out on schedule. It was my own fault that I didn't analyze the pedals properly. Anyone want a pair of Shimano pedals?

The LBS guy couldn't help but be really impressed to see the titanium bike in front of him with those components for $2799.



Mike Overly said:


> Beautiful bike -- much nicer with the "hollow" stickers.
> 
> Now, as others have intimated, go invest ten bucks in a set of Allen key wrenches. A bike store guy who doesn't know stems can be flipped isn't doing you any favors, and you can flip the stem, borrow pedals from one of your other bikes, and be riding your Moto after 20 minutes of pretty simple wrench turning. (Programming Note: Left pedals are reverse threaded ).


Yes, I like the hollow stickers better myself. I'm even going to keep the sticker that says it is aerospace grade titanium! 

I have allen wrenches. I plan on doing a few rides with the stem as is.

Thanks about the pedals. It's been a long time since I've installed pedals and I remember something being funky. So, do I have this right? For the right pedal, I turn the wrench to the left to loosen it but for the left pedal, I turn to the right to loosen?


----------



## paulfeng

*Give the LBS a break...*



Mike Overly said:


> A bike store guy who doesn't know stems can be flipped isn't doing you any favors


I think you guys who are saying that the bike store employee doesn't know that stems are flippable are reading too much between the lines of Jason's post.

Flipping the (17 degree) stem would drop the bars by over 50mm (two inches). From the photos, it looks like lowering it by one spacer (as reported by Jason) dropped it about 10mm.

I would give the LBS the benefit of the doubt, particularly when the story is being conveyed by our OP who admittedly is not the most knowledgeable about mechanical things.


----------



## paulfeng

JasonB176 said:


> This is a symptom of the angled stem but the drops are pointing downward to such an extent, I'm likely to feel like my hands will slip off them.


Not so much a "symptom" of the stem, but rather of how the bars are being held/clamped by the stem (which does look pretty extreme in your photo).

You can loosen the four bolts at the front of the stem, rotate the bars to where you want them (many people would make the tops of the bars leading to the brifters level w.r.t. the ground), then tighten the four bolts.

(While those four bolts have an indicated max torque for tightening, I suspect that is to protect carbon fiber handlebars, which you do not have.)


----------



## JasonB176

paulfeng said:


> I think you guys who are saying that the bike store employee doesn't know that stems are flippable are reading too much between the lines of Jason's post.
> 
> Flipping the (17 degree) stem would drop the bars by over 50mm (two inches). From the photos, it looks like lowering it by one spacer (as reported by Jason) dropped it about 10mm.
> 
> I would give the LBS the benefit of the doubt, particularly when the story is being conveyed by our OP who admittedly is not the most knowledgeable about mechanical things.


That is correct. He did know about flipping the stem. He's the mechanic that did the flip on my Jamis. He would have flipped it right then if I had wanted him to but like I've mentioned, I want to try it in its present position. I did appreciate him lowering it a notch, though.



paulfeng said:


> Not so much a "symptom" of the stem, but rather of how the bars are being held/clamped by the stem (which does look pretty extreme in your photo).
> 
> You can loosen the four bolts at the front of the stem, rotate the bars to where you want them (many people would make the tops of the bars leading to the brifters level w.r.t. the ground), then tighten the four bolts.
> 
> (While those four bolts have an indicated max torque for tightening, I suspect that is to protect carbon fiber handlebars, which you do not have.)


Thanks for the tip. I might get courageous and try to make the adjustment.


----------



## JasonB176

*First Ride Report*

First, here's an outdoor image with the necessary add-ons. The only difference is I now have PP256s as pedals instead of those Look Keos:









Notice the rotated handlebars that I like so much better now. I'm pretty sure I will leave the stem as is but those handlebars definitely had to be rotated to the level position they currently have. 

I imagine it's fairly common to have a number of issues and tweaks when getting a new bike particularly when it's mail-ordered. I had a lot of problems with the wheels when I got my Specialized but don't recall as many tweaks with my Jamis. Anyway, as mentioned in a thread I started, I found out the hard way that Look Keo pedals are not compatible cleatwise with the older Looks. I was left with two sets (the Shimanos that came with it and the Keos) that were useless to me. A bike shop saved me and gave me a used pair of PP256s which appear to be the solution.

So, I finally was ready for my first ride today. I clipped into the 256s and off I went. Almost immediately I felt a smile come across my face. I have never been on a bike this light and responsive. Feathery is how I would describe it. It will actually take a bit of getting used to handling-wise because it could be described as twitchy but that is only due to my lack of familiarity to the bike. It wasn't long before I was already adjusting to it and LOVING it. The fit felt just about perfect.

Alas, I was about to discover that the fit was not feeling so great. In adjusting my seat, I had failed to tighten it back hard enough! My seat gradually sank all the way to the very bottom making for a horrid rest of the ride. I foolishly didn't bring the allen wrench with me so I had little choice but to plod through the ride, standing a lot and hoping my knees wouldn't be wrecked by this ridiculously low seat position.

I also discovered that the bike shop that put it together did a terrible job with the front derailleur as it refused to keep the chain in the big ring. This wasn't that big a deal because I normally do most of my riding in the 39 tooth ring but it will mean another trip back to the shop.

So, the ride was a mix of elation and frustration but I know that soon these last few tweaks will be worked out and I'm going to be left with a bike that I truly love. I was pretty shocked to read some of the disparaging remarks made in the Bikes Direct thread that I discovered yesterday. I think they offer quality bikes and components at prices bike shops can't match. Yes, there are some frustrations but bikes bought at shops aren't free completely of these initial problems either.

I will do a further analysis after I've had some complete rides without the seat and derailleur issues.


----------



## flatsix911

Beautiful ride :thumbsup:


----------



## froze

I agree, it's one sweet looking ride.

Typically by the way, the quick releases should be pointing in an upward angle with the front in line with the fork, and the rear in line with seat stay. But I've seen people do it all sorts of ways, so not sure if my way's the "right" way.


----------



## LongIslandTom

JasonB176 said:


> Alas, I was about to discover that the fit was not feeling so great. In adjusting my seat, I had failed to tighten it back hard enough! My seat gradually sank all the way to the very bottom making for a horrid rest of the ride. I foolishly didn't bring the allen wrench with me so I had little choice but to plod through the ride, standing a lot and hoping my knees wouldn't be wrecked by this ridiculously low seat position.
> 
> I also discovered that the bike shop that put it together did a terrible job with the front derailleur as it refused to keep the chain in the big ring. This wasn't that big a deal because I normally do most of my riding in the 39 tooth ring but it will mean another trip back to the shop.


Did the bike shop put grease or antiseize on the seatpost? If not, put some on so you won't end up with a stuck seatpost in the future. Definitely carry a multi-tool with you on your first few rides so you can "dial in" your fit. Remember tiny adjustments to your seat height, horizontal positioning, seat angle, and handlebar angle can make a huge difference in ride feel.

It would do you well to learn how to do the drivetrain adjustments yourself. Those are simple to do, and if you know how, you can spend more time riding and less time leaving the bike at the bike shop.

I find my Moto LeChamp Ti Heat to be the most forgiving bike I have ever bought. Aside from the SRAM bottom bracket crapping out (which I easily solved by swapping in a Chris King BB), the rest of the bike has been remarkably trouble-free and noise-free, compared to my old CF-frame Specialized Roubaix.


----------



## froze

DO NOT USE petroleum based grease your seat post! There is a product called Tacx Dynamic Paste that is intended for that purpose as is carbon paste, or Grey Anti-seize, or Finish Line Carbon Fiber assembly paste. Calfee, who makes fantastic CF bikes as this to say: "is that if it is tight, use grease. If it slips, wipe it clean". BUT, read your paperwork from the seat post manufacture, they will tell you what you should use. 

And since it did slip don't go crazy tightening it or you could crush the seat post. You need to have a inch pound torque wrench and torque the seat bolt to the specified seat post manufactures torque rating.

And do not scratch the seat post to mark your height, instead use electrical tape or paint a line.


----------



## LongIslandTom

The Ritchey Pro seatpost on our Moto Ti bikes are aluminum alloy. Petroleum-based grease works fine with it.

I have to admit I do feel a bit scandalized to see an aluminum seatpost on my Ti bike. A carbon seatpost, or even better a Ti seatpost like a Moots would look far more appropriate on the Moto LeChamp Ti!


----------



## froze

LongIslandTom said:


> The Ritchey Pro seatpost on our Moto Ti bikes are aluminum alloy. Petroleum-based grease works fine with it.
> 
> I have to admit I do feel a bit scandalized to see an aluminum seatpost on my Ti bike. A carbon seatpost, or even better a Ti seatpost like a Moots would look far more appropriate on the Moto LeChamp Ti!


$340 for a Moots Ti seat post? YIKES! Nothing wrong with AL seat post on a TI bike, it's much more durable then a CF seat post and you can get them nearly as light and cost less the CF and far less then TI.

What I want to know is why don't they make a wide aero profile TI fork instead of Carbon fiber? Any flex could be gotten rid of by internal splines.


----------



## JasonB176

LongIslandTom said:


> Did the bike shop put grease or antiseize on the seatpost? If not, put some on so you won't end up with a stuck seatpost in the future. Definitely carry a multi-tool with you on your first few rides so you can "dial in" your fit. Remember tiny adjustments to your seat height, horizontal positioning, seat angle, and handlebar angle can make a huge difference in ride feel.
> 
> It would do you well to learn how to do the drivetrain adjustments yourself. Those are simple to do, and if you know how, you can spend more time riding and less time leaving the bike at the bike shop.
> 
> I find my Moto LeChamp Ti Heat to be the most forgiving bike I have ever bought. Aside from the SRAM bottom bracket crapping out (which I easily solved by swapping in a Chris King BB), the rest of the bike has been remarkably trouble-free and noise-free, compared to my old CF-frame Specialized Roubaix.


No, they didn't but if I had just left it alone I probably would have been alright. I tried a few different heights and ended up settling on the one they had set it at. I already have the tool packed for my next ride! I matched it up against my Jamis and everything is remarkably similar so it was pretty easy to pick the seat height.

I would try to adjust the derailleur myself if this was another situation. I just feel like for the $72 I paid for them to put it together, it should work correctly to start with.

I was just starting to notice the nuances of the titanium ride when the seat started to descend. I'll have to fully analyze it once I have a problem-free ride.



flatsix911 said:


> Beautiful ride :thumbsup:


Thank you! 



froze said:


> I agree, it's one sweet looking ride.
> 
> Typically by the way, the quick releases should be pointing in an upward angle with the front in line with the fork, and the rear in line with seat stay. But I've seen people do it all sorts of ways, so not sure if my way's the "right" way.


Thanks. I agree about the quick releases. That is the way the bike shop assembled it and I just haven't changed them yet. I thought it was it was strange that it was left that way.



froze said:


> DO NOT USE petroleum based grease your seat post! There is a product called Tacx Dynamic Paste that is intended for that purpose as is carbon paste, or Grey Anti-seize, or Finish Line Carbon Fiber assembly paste. Calfee, who makes fantastic CF bikes as this to say: "is that if it is tight, use grease. If it slips, wipe it clean".  BUT, read your paperwork from the seat post manufacture, they will tell you what you should use.
> 
> And since it did slip don't go crazy tightening it or you could crush the seat post. You need to have a inch pound torque wrench and torque the seat bolt to the specified seat post manufactures torque rating.
> 
> And do not scratch the seat post to mark your height, instead use electrical tape or paint a line.


I'm afraid I already did *go crazy* with the tightening when I adjusted the seat after arriving home. I probably shouldn't have done it in such a frustrated state. I'm not going to touch it though until I see what the next ride produces. As far as my seat post goes, it's already totally wrecked lookswise. The Ritchey label is almost completely scratched off. The slow scraping of a 1 hour 45 minute ride did it in.


----------



## LongIslandTom

> I'm afraid I already did *go crazy* with the tightening when I adjusted the seat after arriving home. I probably shouldn't have done it in such a frustrated state. I'm not going to touch it though until I see what the next ride produces. As far as my seat post goes, it's already totally wrecked lookswise. The Ritchey label is almost completely scratched off. The slow scraping of a 1 hour 45 minute ride did it in.


Don't worry about "going crazy" with the Ritchey seatpost. Froze's advice is for carbon seatposts, which can indeed get crushed if overtorqued. Not going to happen with an aluminum seat post like the Ritchey on our Ti bikes.

I'm a bit surprised your LBS didn't debur the seat tube and grease/anti-seize the aluminum seat post when they put it together for you. That's a no-no in my book. That would have prevented the scratches.

The Ritchey seatpost on my bike is pristine and unscratched because I did do those things when I did my own assembly, natch. 

Even though your seatpost's surface is now AFU, you still need to grease/anti-seize it, lest you risk a stuck seatpost in the future.


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## froze

Damn my bad, I thought the seat post was CF no AL. Then right, you're not going to crush a AL seat post thus no need to worry about the torque, but you should never go crazy tightening anything on a bike because in this case you could break the seat tube collar. But grease (or Anti Seize) won't hurt to use in this case at all. Then just remember to regrease it once a year. I think anti seize would work better then grease when it comes to AL in TI.


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## B05

I wish Moto did hollow decals on all their Ti frames. It's just so fitting. 

Not like what they've done to the CF frames with the grossly retarded solid text. It's so cheesy.

Congrats on the bike. A Moto Ti bike is on my short list.


----------



## JasonB176

*Second Ride Report*

The good news: my front derailleur is now working correctly and the pedals seem to be fine.

The bad news: I again had a problem with the seat! I started off my ride with the seat in the position that I thought would be best. It felt okay at times but it seemed like I wasn't generating quite the spin that I do on my other bikes - that wiping the floor motion that is so effective especially for climbing. 

I stopped after 5 miles and lowered the seat some. I admittedly tightened it hard and even scratched the post to make sure that I would know that it wasn't slipping down on me. There was some improvement but I lowered it more a few miles after this and then, 19 miles into the ride prepared to lower it a third and final time. As I'm going to retighten it, I hear a loud snap! I managed to break the bolt holding the seatpost in two. I just learned the hard way to not overtighten seats. Now I'm again stuck way from home with a seat problem. I spent the ride home yanking it up and trying to lean against it in a way to slow its descent back down the post.

I went straight to my LBS and the mechanic spent almost 30 minutes looking for a matching bolt. He said he wasn't too suprised about it breaking because it was aluminum and thin. He finally suggested that I go to a local hardware store to see if I could find a match there. Just as I'm about to leave the store, he found one that he removed from something else and it fit! That was very nice of him to do that as he will have to reorder that bolt. He had to cut the end of it as it was too long but I think it looks alright. He only charged me $4.50 for the bolt which was much appreciated.

I'm obviously going to have to find a happy medium between tightening too little and too much. I will try erring on too little until I find the right pressure.

I'm still finding it hard to give a full report on the bike due to the problems with the rides. What I thought at first was a great fit, is perhaps not so much so and may be on the slightly too big size as I initially feared before ordering the bike. I still have tweaking to do though and can't fully judge an overly impression of the bike until I've had several problem-free rides.

I remember I went through an adjustment period when I first got my steel Jamis after having only ridden aluminum before that. At first I wasn't sure how much I liked it but have now grown to love the steel ride and the fit of that bike. It could be that it will take time for my body to adjust to the feel of titanium and the slight differences attendant with any new bike.

Another review will be forthcoming!


----------



## LongIslandTom

> The bad news: I again had a problem with the seat! I started off my ride with the seat in the position that I thought would be best. It felt okay at times but it seemed like I wasn't generating quite the spin that I do on my other bikes - that wiping the floor motion that is so effective especially for climbing.


I had the same issue when I took out my LeChamp Ti Heat for its first ride.

The problem for me was the Ritchey Pro seatpost and saddle. Those two together have a ridiculous amount of setback. Even with the Ritchey Pro saddle moved as far forward as it will go on its mounting rails, my butt is still seated well behind the rear wheel's hub. Sitting so far back, I couldn't generate any power off the pedals.

I swapped in the saddle from my retired bike (which fits me well), and its mounting rails allows me to put the seat about 1.5 inches further forward than the Ritchey saddle, which puts my knees closer to over the pedals. No problems generating power ever since I swapped in my old saddle.

You might want to check your horizontal positioning on your LeChamp Ti vs. your old Jamis. If you are also sitting way too far back on the Ti, you might want to consider either a new seatpost with less setback (good excuse to get a new one that isn't all scratched up!), a new saddle that can be mounted a bit more forward compared to the Ritchey, or both.

And I hope you greased your seatpost. Never had any seatpost clamping issues like yours on my LeChamp Ti.


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## tnbiker

the seatpost clamp issue is unacceptable for such an expensive new bike. Have BD send you a new clamp asap, you aren't the only one with this problem


----------



## marcalans

JasonB176 said:


> What I thought at first was a great fit, is perhaps not so much so and may be on the slightly too big size as I initially feared before ordering the bike. I still have tweaking to do though and can't fully judge an overly impression of the bike until I've had several problem-free rides.


Keep the reports coming! And don't forget -- you can always return the bike within 30 days if you're not comfortable with the fit and get another size. Don't force yourself to accommodate the bike; it should accommodate you.


----------



## Summit123

*Sizing*



Jim52 said:


> You'll love this bike! I do! And I'm 5' 9", and the 53 fits me great!


What is your inseam? I am 5'8.5" with a roughly 31" inseam, 32" with shoes on. When I emailed BD they recommended the 51". My current bike is a Giant TCR with TT 55.5cm. This is slightly longer than the 53" BD frame. My only concern is the "measly" 1" clearance I will have with the 53" if I go against their recs. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated


----------



## froze

Summit123 said:


> What is your inseam? I am 5'8.5" with a roughly 31" inseam, 32" with shoes on. When I emailed BD they recommended the 51". My current bike is a Giant TCR with TT 55.5cm. This is slightly longer than the 53" BD frame. My only concern is the "measly" 1" clearance I will have with the 53" if I go against their recs. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated


Make sure your inseam is 31, not roughly 31. First put on the clothes and shoes you would wear when riding, then have someone help you measure your inseam by jamming a book as hard as you can up against your crotch (just kidding about the hard as you can thing!) then measure from the top of the book to the floor. Take this measurement 3 times by replacing the book and measuring to make sure you didn't make a mistake. Your looking at getting as close as you can with a 1 inch stand over between the top tube and your crotch for a standard "classic" style frame, or about 2 inches for a compact (sloping) style frame. 

The stand over height of the 51 is 29.9"; the 53 is 30.6; and the 56 is 31.7 (I'm assuming you're looking at the road not the cross which is different). So actually either one would fit, but if you're going to feel a bit crunched up on the 51 then get the 53, or if you think you're going to be too stretched out on the 53 then get the 51.

Once you have the stand over height correct the rest of the fitting problems like reach and saddle height and position can be changed either by moving the parts to get them to fit or replacing a part to get it to fit.

What is it you like or dislike about the 55.5 Giant? Is the frame to tall? How's the reach? If the reach is great then measure the top tube length and see how that corresponds with the length of the top tube on their size spec chart for the 51 and the 53. If your current bike is too long then figure how much shorter in length you would like a frame to be then try to match that with either the 51 or 53. You're looking at almost 1 1/2 inch difference in reach from the 51 to the 53 because the 51 is 21.25" and the 53 is 21.65"

Some aggressive riders like a slightly smaller then the idea frame, but for long mile comfort you should get a bike that fits as close as you can get it.


----------



## Jim52

I did the measurement like Froze said, and it was 32.5 with shoes on. BD also recommended the 51, I went with the 53, and I'm happy. There were no fit issues when I brought it to my LBS to be fitted.

BTW, I LOVE THIS BIKE!!


----------



## Summit123

froze said:


> Make sure your inseam is 31, not roughly 31. First put on the clothes and shoes you would wear when riding, then have someone help you measure your inseam by jamming a book as hard as you can up against your crotch (just kidding about the hard as you can thing!) then measure from the top of the book to the floor. Take this measurement 3 times by replacing the book and measuring to make sure you didn't make a mistake. Your looking at getting as close as you can with a 1 inch stand over between the top tube and your crotch for a standard "classic" style frame, or about 2 inches for a compact (sloping) style frame.
> 
> The stand over height of the 51 is 29.9"; the 53 is 30.6; and the 56 is 31.7 (I'm assuming you're looking at the road not the cross which is different). So actually either one would fit, but if you're going to feel a bit crunched up on the 51 then get the 53, or if you think you're going to be too stretched out on the 53 then get the 51.
> 
> Once you have the stand over height correct the rest of the fitting problems like reach and saddle height and position can be changed either by moving the parts to get them to fit or replacing a part to get it to fit.
> 
> What is it you like or dislike about the 55.5 Giant? Is the frame to tall? How's the reach? If the reach is great then measure the top tube length and see how that corresponds with the length of the top tube on their size spec chart for the 51 and the 53. If your current bike is too long then figure how much shorter in length you would like a frame to be then try to match that with either the 51 or 53. You're looking at almost 1 1/2 inch difference in reach from the 51 to the 53 because the 51 is 21.25" and the 53 is 21.65"
> 
> Some aggressive riders like a slightly smaller then the idea frame, but for long mile comfort you should get a bike that fits as close as you can get it.


There is nothing wrong with my Giant. I actually love it a lot. Fast, stiff, responsive. All this talk about the sweet ride of titanium has made me wanting to get one. Plus my stand up bike rack holds 2 bikes so I didn't want to let that go to waste!


----------



## JasonB176

tnbiker said:


> the seatpost clamp issue is unacceptable for such an expensive new bike. Have BD send you a new clamp asap, you aren't the only one with this problem


Soon after the two unfortunate rides with my Motobecane, I switched to my beater bike for the winter. Only today did I decide to try it again. 3 miles in, I yet AGAIN had a problem with the seat lowering itself. I kept having to stop every 5 miles to raise it. After my last ride when I broke the bolt, I was afraid to try tightening it too much.

After my third tightening, I noticed that the clamp part seemed to be a little too high up so it was partially on the seat post rather than the solid part of the frame. I tried pushing it down further and tightening it again. It seemed to hold better but the position was too high because I had been purposely putting it too high to begin because of how quickly it was slipping down. I stopped after another 10 miles of this and lowered it to the right position. I think it only slipped a tiny bit for the remainder of the ride. I retightened when I got home so we'll see what the next ride brings.

I'm just really frustrated that there would be this much of an issue with a brand new seatpost set-up. I know it's been a few months now since I bought the bike but it was only my third ride today due to all the issues. If this latest effort doesn't work, I plan on contacting Bikes Direct and see what they'll do for me. What they gave me is unacceptable and hopefully they'll want to correct it.

It was still hard to accurately gauge how much I like the bike because I was so distracted by the seat problems but I think I can safely say I like it. It is very light and responsive. I also like the power transfer when standing going up hills. I plan to wait to make my full analysis once I've had several rides that are problem-free.


----------



## tnbiker

*double clamp*

Problem Solvers


----------



## paulg

*Seat Post Clamp*

Hi Jason,

I've been riding my MB Le Champ Ti SL for abojut a month after putting it together. I had a similar issue with the seat post slipping down after about 18 miles or so. Because the seat post is aluminum, I felt it would be OK to tighten past the 5Nm indicated torque. What I found was that after each ride, I had to re-tighten the seat post clamp. Finally I reassembled it with the blue Locktite on the threads. I've had no slipping since. 

I'm convinced that vibration and perhaps the design of the clamp was making the binder bolt "back out" a bit. Resulting in clamp loosening. If you haven't already, try the Loctite, it might just be the answer.

Paul



JasonB176 said:


> Soon after the two unfortunate rides with my Motobecane, I switched to my beater bike for the winter. Only today did I decide to try it again. 3 miles in, I yet AGAIN had a problem with the seat lowering itself. I kept having to stop every 5 miles to raise it. After my last ride when I broke the bolt, I was afraid to try tightening it too much.
> 
> After my third tightening, I noticed that the clamp part seemed to be a little too high up so it was partially on the seat post rather than the solid part of the frame. I tried pushing it down further and tightening it again. It seemed to hold better but the position was too high because I had been purposely putting it too high to begin because of how quickly it was slipping down. I stopped after another 10 miles of this and lowered it to the right position. I think it only slipped a tiny bit for the remainder of the ride. I retightened when I got home so we'll see what the next ride brings.
> 
> I'm just really frustrated that there would be this much of an issue with a brand new seatpost set-up. I know it's been a few months now since I bought the bike but it was only my third ride today due to all the issues. If this latest effort doesn't work, I plan on contacting Bikes Direct and see what they'll do for me. What they gave me is unacceptable and hopefully they'll want to correct it.
> 
> It was still hard to accurately gauge how much I like the bike because I was so distracted by the seat problems but I think I can safely say I like it. It is very light and responsive. I also like the power transfer when standing going up hills. I plan to wait to make my full analysis once I've had several rides that are problem-free.


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## paulg

*Other comments on the Le Champ SL Ti*

I might as well add that I looked at many options before purchasing this bike, and I admit I'm very happy with it. It's a great ride, looks great and have no regrets about not buying something carbon. Mine came stock with a standard 53/39 double which I changed out for a 50/34 compact - much better for my 55 yr young legs. 

Having a longish torso, the frame geometry was a good fit too. I'm 5'8", 165 LB, 31 IN inseam and went w/ the 53 cm.

The ride is very responsive and light, yet compliant on rough roads. Bike was very stable on a 40+ mph descent. Getting the shimano 105 pedals included was not a bad deal either. 

Paul


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## froze

paulg said:


> Hi Jason,
> 
> I've been riding my MB Le Champ Ti SL for abojut a month after putting it together. I had a similar issue with the seat post slipping down after about 18 miles or so. Because the seat post is aluminum, I felt it would be OK to tighten past the 5Nm indicated torque. What I found was that after each ride, I had to re-tighten the seat post clamp. Finally I reassembled it with the blue Locktite on the threads. I've had no slipping since.
> 
> I'm convinced that vibration and perhaps the design of the clamp was making the binder bolt "back out" a bit. Resulting in clamp loosening. If you haven't already, try the Loctite, it might just be the answer.
> 
> Paul


You should send your information regarding your problem you encountered with the seat post to Bike Direct, maybe a future production of those bikes the problem can be fixed. But I'm not sure if your problem is unique because a friend of mine has the MB Le Champion Team TI model and he has not had any issues with his, and the clamp design looks the same on all their road bike TI models.


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## lardo

I had a slipping seatpost too with my Ti BD bike. . 

I used carbon fiber paste and it fixed the problem. It's a paste that has small sand-like particles that help grip the seat tube and seat post.


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## Cyclingfan1960

What is the weight? Where was it made?


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## froze

lardo said:


> I had a slipping seatpost too with my Ti BD bike. .
> 
> I used carbon fiber paste and it fixed the problem. It's a paste that has small sand-like particles that help grip the seat tube and seat post.


Interesting, like hopefully Paulg will do, you should consider notifying BD about the problem. I'm not sure if TI frames and aluminum post are subject to this or not, I know carbon frames with carbon posts are.

Also you TI owners, I read this somewhere once about TI which is really cool. With titanium bikes, if you get a scratch on the frame, you can easily remove it with some steel wool. Simply run the steel wool over the scratch in the direction of the brushed finish, not in the direction of the scratch or against the direction of the brush finish, do this until it disappears and then wipe the area with a dry cloth. This works best with brushed finish titanium. If you have polished finish titanium it will no longer have that high polished look, you would need to run a polisher over the area to bring back the luster. Problem areas for this scratch removal process will obviously be where any decals are.


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## lardo

I think steel wool would create even more scratches because it's very course. I've read that certain grades of Scotch Brite pads will work in that manner.


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## vautrain

I don't necessarily think my seatpost was slipping, but yesterday morning I tried to raise the saddle on my Century Ti (with stock BD seatpost clamp) and I stripped the bolt. I've never done that before on any seatpost clamp. Admittedly, I wasn't using a torque wrench, and almost certainly exceeded the torque spec, but it was pretty irritating. I bought a Salsa clamp from a local bike shop and replaced the BD clamp with no problems. I mean, I get it, I paid less than $1k for a titanium frame, but still, it seems like they could put a stronger seatpost clamp on it.


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## ramkitty

I hope I dont have issues when I receive my newly ordered ti inferno  1 more post then I can submit a new thread


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## PhotoJoe

This seat post issue is NOT uncommon with the BD Ti offerings. I'd say out of all the posts I've read about them, this is the biggest complaint, which is easily fixed. I have read a few stories of BD sending new clamps, though if memory serves me right, they're just replacements of the same clamps. Though minor, it's very frustrating on a new bike, no matter how good the "deal" was.


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## PhotoJoe

ramkitty - what size did you get? (hey, just trying to help you get that post count up!)


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## froze

PhotoJoe said:


> This seat post issue is NOT uncommon with the BD Ti offerings. I'd say out of all the posts I've read about them, this is the biggest complaint, which is easily fixed. I have read a few stories of BD sending new clamps, though if memory serves me right, they're just replacements of the same clamps. Though minor, it's very frustrating on a new bike, no matter how good the "deal" was.


I've heard this happening a lot from low cost carbon fiber bikes to very expensive carbon bikes too, so I don't think price is the issue, I think engineering is the issue., which seems to be and issue with a lot of stuff made today. Fortunately the fix is easy as you've said, both with these Ti bikes as well as with the CF bikes..


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## froze

lardo said:


> I think steel wool would create even more scratches because it's very course. I've read that certain grades of Scotch Brite pads will work in that manner.


I kind of like your idea of the Brite pad better, but the article I read did say steel wool. Again only to be use d on brushed TI not polished. Again though, don't be scrubbing the decals with Scotch Brite either.


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## JasonB176

Thanks for the advice and experiences concerning seatposts with Motobecane bikes. Because I seemed to have success with my final tightening on my last ride, I'm going to try it again today before exploring other options.


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## ramkitty

yes at 5 now..I got a 48 because I was recommended a small frame I had a bike fit at a local shop with computers, video, power, etc pretty cool really and I was told to look at 51 or 51 in cervello, cannondale and spec and xref with the ti le champ and found the 48 close. I am a little worried that it is on the smaller side but I hated stretching out when I was told to try a 54 locally by another shop.

I am 5'6+ but stocky at 180lbs.


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## lardo

I'm 5' 7"- 8" and I had a 48cm Ti Le Champion. It fits really nice for me. I'm sure it'll be fine for you.


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## JasonB176

*At Last!*

The seat held for my 35 mile ride today! I made a scratch mark on the post to gauge it and it might have slipped a microscopic amount but I'm not sure of it. In any case, it didn't negatively affect the ride. For the first time I was able to relax, enjoy my new bike and analyze its performance.

I really love this bike! Firstly, I definitely got the right size with the 53 rather than the 51. I like the fit and seem to be able to generate good power with my spin on the pedals. The bike is so light that it took a little getting used to as far as the way it handled but I'm pretty much there now. I feel confident to stand and hammer at fast speeds even on busy roads.

I've heard of the expression of the bike behaving like it's on rails and now I know fully what that really means. I picked a hilly route today which included a descent at over 40MPH and the bike held perfectly with no shaking or even extra vibration. It had some twisty descents too and it cornered like a dream. My 2002 Jamis Eclipse is still nice to ride but its rear Ksyrium SSC wheel is now a bit out of true and I didn't realize what a difference it makes until riding the perfectly true Elites on my Motobecane. Even brand new, I don't remember the Jamis feeling as good.

I couldn't get over how good I felt when I was done. My body didn't feel as beat up as on my other bikes. The titanium gives such a smooth ride and yet is so responsive. I feel there is such a direct power transfer from the pedals and it's particularly noticeable on hills.

I see myself being able to go farther with less discomfort making this an excellent bike for centuries in addition to faster, shorter efforts.

For $2800 I'm happy. I got my third bike and love the titanium as well as the components, minus the seatpost, of course.

I'm still a little wary about the seatpost and will continue to carry the allen wrench. Here's what it looks like:









I finally got that black piece down where it should be. The mechanic at the bike shop left it too high so that it was barely on the frame itself and half up on the black seatpost.

One question: can/should titanium frames be waxed like steel and aluminum ones?


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> One question: can/should titanium frames be waxed like steel and aluminum ones?


Great review...except for the seat post thing. 

You do not have to wax TI, but Pledge furnature spray wax will remove the smudges and give the bike a nice luster, and it's quick and easy to apply. BUT, do not use Pledge on painted metal like your steel and aluminum bikes. Pledge won't hurt those bikes but the wax used in Pledge will not protect paint from UV damage and it's not hardy enough to be outside. Since UV can't damage nude TI it's not important to use a nice auto wax...though you can, however if you use a auto wax make sure it's the spray on kind with no abrasive because an abrasive car wax or even a paste wax can damage the decals over time.


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## SlurpeeKing

I love my LeChamp Ti, no seat post issue here. Only issue is my FSA BB developed a click at the 11 o'clock position in the left crank arm, so I think it's done. Is it time to upgrade the BB??

Btw this happened after back to back rides in the rain a couple of weekends ago. (it was roughly 1 month/480 miles before the click started)


----------



## JasonB176

SlurpeeKing said:


> I love my LeChamp Ti, no seat post issue here. Only issue is my FSA BB developed a click at the 11 o'clock position in the left crank arm, so I think it's done. Is it time to upgrade the BB??
> 
> Btw this happened after back to back rides in the rain a couple of weekends ago. (it was roughly 1 month/480 miles before the click started)


Others have mentioned that they've had problems with the BB on these bikes. I have a 2000 Specialized that's been my beater bikes for years having gone through rain, salt and even snow with no problems in this area. It's hard to believe the Motobecanes would have issues so quickly with the BB. I hope to avoid using mine in the rain but still, that's completely unacceptable that you would have problems so soon.


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## SlurpeeKing

JasonB176 said:


> Others have mentioned that they've had problems with the BB on these bikes. I have a 2000 Specialized that's been my beater bikes for years having gone through rain, salt and even snow with no problems in this area. It's hard to believe the Motobecanes would have issues so quickly with the BB. I hope to avoid using mine in the rain but still, that's completely unacceptable that you would have problems so soon.


it looks like the issue is with FSA BB, after a google search a lot of issues came up.


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## JasonB176

SlurpeeKing said:


> it looks like the issue is with FSA BB, after a google search a lot of issues came up.


Please post your solution to the problem when you arrive at one.


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## SlurpeeKing

JasonB176 said:


> Please post your solution to the problem when you arrive at one.


most likely will bring the bike into my LBS for them to check it out (I have no experience with BB). If it's bad I will most likely upgrade the BB and be done with FSA's BB (seems to be too many issues). I figure even if I drop $100-150 on an upgraded BB I'm still way ahead of the game. 

II'm not going to knock BD for this, I've searched and the same issues are happening across the board with FSA BB's.


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## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> most likely will bring the bike into my LBS for them to check it out (I have no experience with BB). If it's bad I will most likely upgrade the BB and be done with FSA's BB (seems to be too many issues). I figure even if I drop $100-150 on an upgraded BB I'm still way ahead of the game.
> 
> II'm not going to knock BD for this, I've searched and the same issues are happening across the board with FSA BB's.


They have a year warranty on components, Get BD to honor the warranty and send another, then you could either use it or sell it and buy a good one.

I think Chris King makes a really nice one that works on that bike.


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## SlurpeeKing

froze said:


> They have a year warranty on components, Get BD to honor the warranty and send another, then you could either use it or sell it and buy a good one.
> 
> I think Chris King makes a really nice one that works on that bike.


I'll email mail them this morning about the BB. 

I was looking at the Chris King as the replacement.


----------



## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> I'll email mail them this morning about the BB.
> 
> I was looking at the Chris King as the replacement.


When or if you get the Chris King BB use Exxon Mobil's Polyrex EM grease instead of standard bicycle grease.


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## SlurpeeKing

Update:

It was the pedal clicking not the BB. what a relief.


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## froze

The pedals are under the same 1 year warranty. Get a new set.


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## SlurpeeKing

thanks, I'll email them today.


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## froze

You could get the new ones from BD, sell them on Craigslist as brand new in the box never used pedals and take that money and apply it towards the cost of a nicer set like Speedplays or whatever brand you prefer.


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> You could get the new ones from BD, sell them on Craigslist as brand new in the box never used pedals and take that money and apply it towards the cost of a nicer set like Speedplays or whatever brand you prefer.


I had my wife sell mine on EBay. I needed an old style pair of Looks to match the pedals on my other two bikes. It was quite a mess as I had bought a pair on new Looks not realizing the change had been made so the new Looks and the BD pedals both got sold! An LBS gave me a pair of old Looks and they are working quite well on my new Ti bike.


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## JasonB176

Well, the seatpost slipped a tiny bit again during today's 42 mile ride. I plan on trying to get this Locktite stuff. Hopefully Lowe's or Home Depot will carry it.

I also blew out my rear tire today (I started a thread about it on the main section.) Hopefully these issues will soon go away and I can just enjoy the bike!


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## SlurpeeKing

BD emailed me and sent a tracking # for my replacement 105 5700 pedals. 

Great customer service!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> BD emailed me and sent a tracking # for my replacement 105 5700 pedals.
> 
> Great customer service!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And that's why BD has a 98% satisfaction rating, and a 4.5 star rating out of 5, and a A+ Better Business Bureau rating. Those ratings are due to the fact they do have superior customer service after the sale in-spite of what owners of LBS's will say.


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## stephen9666

JasonB176 said:


> Well, the seatpost slipped a tiny bit again during today's 42 mile ride. I plan on trying to get this Locktite stuff. Hopefully Lowe's or Home Depot will carry it.
> 
> I also blew out my rear tire today (I started a thread about it on the main section.) Hopefully these issues will soon go away and I can just enjoy the bike!


Autoparts stores like NAPA will have Loctite for sure. Lowe's or Home Depot may have it.


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## PhotoJoe

JasonB176 said:


> I also blew out my rear tire today (I started a thread about it on the main section.) Hopefully these issues will soon go away and I can just enjoy the bike!


I helped a guy at work put together his $279 Windsor today. He made it 50 feet before he flatted. The rim tape wasn't set right and I think a nipple popped it. We reset his tape, he bought a new tube and so far, so good. He was less than thrilled though. Also, both his rims need to be trued. A little disappointed in how bad they are, but it can be fixed.


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## tnbiker

there is no need to scratch or score your nice seatpost as this may weaken the post. I am not sure if loctite will help the situation since the bolt probably isn't wiggling loose with all the torque you are placing on it. 

Just have BD send you the double clamp. This clamp along with carbon fiber paste fixed my slipping post problem on my Ti Moto.


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## lardo

I second tnbiker.

That bolt isn't prone to much vibration for it to loosen and loosen the seatpost. I fixed my slippage with carbon paste.


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## JasonB176

tnbiker said:


> there is no need to scratch or score your nice seatpost as this may weaken the post. I am not sure if loctite will help the situation since the bolt probably isn't wiggling loose with all the torque you are placing on it.
> 
> Just have BD send you the double clamp. This clamp along with carbon fiber paste fixed my slipping post problem on my Ti Moto.


I'm not familiar with carbon fiber paste. Could you tell me a brand name and/or how it's used? Thanks.


----------



## stephen9666

JasonB176 said:


> I'm not familiar with carbon fiber paste. Could you tell me a brand name and/or how it's used? Thanks.


I believe it's a gritty paste. The grit digs into the post and seat tube and helps prevents the seat post from slipping.

I think I read somewhere that you could substitute valve grinding compound, but I'd recommend researching that before you try it, b/c I might be misremembering.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I'm not familiar with carbon fiber paste. Could you tell me a brand name and/or how it's used? Thanks.


Just go to any LBS and ask them for carbon fiber assembly paste. There are several brands of the stuff so whatever your LBS carries is fine.


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## tnbiker

carbon fiber assembly paste

here is what I have used 
http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/fiber_grip.htm


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## JasonB176

Thanks guys for the info on the carbon paste.

It was damp today with some roads being wet so I brought out the beater bike. What a difference a bike makes! I stopped _twice_ to make sure there was nothing wrong with my bike! It just felt so sluggish like a brake pad was rubbing or a tire was low. That wasn't the case. I just hadn't ridden the Specialized since March and have been spoiled with the Motobecane. It makes me appreciate how feathery and responsive it is.


----------



## froze

Thats amazing there's that much difference between the Specialized and the Motobecane. Now the big question, ok not so big, anyway how's the ride different from the Motobecane and the Jamis?


----------



## JasonB176

froze said:


> Thats amazing there's that much difference between the Specialized and the Motobecane. Now the big question, ok not so big, anyway how's the ride different from the Motobecane and the Jamis?


That's an interesting question. The difference is far more subtle. I still love the ride of my Jamis but there is definitely more flex in the frame which I feel especially on hills. The rear wheel is a bit out of true also which affects stability. My average speeds have been very similar between the Jamis and the Motobecane. The biggest difference has been that I feel less beat up after my rides on the titanium frame. Of course, my Jamis is 10 years old too but I think it's held up very well.

The original wheels on my Specialized were total junk. I broke spokes right from the beginning. A friend gave me an old pair of Fir wheels he was no longer using. They've held up well but they're not light. The bike as a whole is noticeably heavier than either of the others and that's the biggest factor. As a comparison, I rode the same course (33 miles) on my Jamis recently with a similar effort level and averaged 19.57 compared to 18.85 yesterday on my Specialized. I wouldn't care to go on longer rides than that with it but it still serves to give me a great workout.


----------



## froze

Interesting reply, thanks. I don't think the age of the Jamis has anything to do with the ride quality, but the wheels as you mentioned may be presenting a problem. The wheel issue would be a simple and cheap fix, just have an LBS retension them, probably cost you $40 for the pair; if you plan on riding the Jamis you should have the retensioning done as soon as you can so you don't break a rim or spokes.

If you've been haunting this forum for awhile then you've probably read that I too have been looking at those Motobecane TI bikes as well, in particular the LeChamp SL or maybe the LeChamp Infernal. So your information was useful for my knowledge, so thanks for sharing.


----------



## harrypy

I just got the Le Champ Sl Ti and love it. I really like the 39/53 crankset with the 11-28 cassette for moderate hills around Seattle area. I am 5' 7" and the 48 cm size fits me very nicely. 

My biggest problem was my wife rode it and insisted on getting one too! Actually she wanted slightly more relaxed gearing so we got her the slightly less expensive version with the FSA 34/50 crankset. Let's hope the BB holds up. The Cane Creek brakes seem just as good as the Ultegra to me. That version of the bike is about half a pound heavier than the full Ultegra one I got. She is 5' 2" and the 48 fits her fine as well and she is also really liking it over her previous GT Series One which was about 4 pounds heavier. 

First thing I did was put Conti GP 4 Season 25c tires on them along with Kool Stop salmon brake pads. The build quality on the wheels was quite good and I only needed slight touch up on the rear dérailleur adjustment to get the shifting perfect. 

In both of our opinions the Ti ride is really considerably more comfortable than the GT Series One bikes we had before (al with carbon fork and seat stays). Yeah, she and I tend to do his-n-hers bikes


----------



## JasonB176

froze said:


> Interesting reply, thanks. I don't think the age of the Jamis has anything to do with the ride quality, but the wheels as you mentioned may be presenting a problem. The wheel issue would be a simple and cheap fix, just have an LBS retension them, probably cost you $40 for the pair; if you plan on riding the Jamis you should have the retensioning done as soon as you can so you don't break a rim or spokes.
> 
> If you've been haunting this forum for awhile then you've probably read that I too have been looking at those Motobecane TI bikes as well, in particular the LeChamp SL or maybe the LeChamp Infernal. So your information was useful for my knowledge, so thanks for sharing.


Haha, maybe the difference is becoming less subtle between my Jamis and the Motobecane Ti! I just did a 51+ mile solo ride in 2:34 for an average of 19.85 using the titanium bike. That's a PR for me at the distance of over 50 miles. I'm beginning to feel more in tune to the new bike. It takes a while I find to appreciate the nuances of a different bike especially one of a frame material that I had never ridden before. I'm starting to get my spin down better. I have to say I'm elated with the bike and its performance. I did a sharp corner faster than I have on any other bike and it held so well I broke out into a smile.

Go for it, man! It sounds like you're a fan of titanium and there's no better deal out there. I haven't had a chance to stop by my LBS yet to see about the carbon paste but the seat was virtually unchanged during this last ride. Perhaps the scoring from my various adjustments is working to give it better grip.



harrypy said:


> I just got the Le Champ Sl Ti and love it. I really like the 39/53 crankset with the 11-28 cassette for moderate hills around Seattle area. I am 5' 7" and the 48 cm size fits me very nicely.
> 
> My biggest problem was my wife rode it and insisted on getting one too! Actually she wanted slightly more relaxed gearing so we got her the slightly less expensive version with the FSA 34/50 crankset. Let's hope the BB holds up. The Cane Creek brakes seem just as good as the Ultegra to me. That version of the bike is about half a pound heavier than the full Ultegra one I got. She is 5' 2" and the 48 fits her fine as well and she is also really liking it over her previous GT Series One which was about 4 pounds heavier.
> 
> First thing I did was put Conti GP 4 Season 25c tires on them along with Kool Stop salmon brake pads. The build quality on the wheels was quite good and I only needed slight touch up on the rear dérailleur adjustment to get the shifting perfect.
> 
> In both of our opinions the Ti ride is really considerably more comfortable than the GT Series One bikes we had before (al with carbon fork and seat stays). Yeah, she and I tend to do his-n-hers bikes


Cool! I'd love to see photos of both bikes!


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> Go for it, man! It sounds like you're a fan of titanium and there's no better deal out there. I haven't had a chance to stop by my LBS yet to see about the carbon paste but the seat was virtually unchanged during this last ride. Perhaps the scoring from my various adjustments is working to give it better grip.


I'm a fan of steel too, but the price of the Motobecane TI bikes have really peaked my interest in buying something a bit lighter for possible racing again; and the price of those Motobecane TI's are about the same as mid end carbon fiber which might weigh 4 to 6 ounces less then TI but the TI would hold up better in real world riding. Then add on top of that that their made in Taiwan instead of China makes for a very good deal. I've been reading all the reviews I could find on those TI bikes and they have been all very positive. There were a few complaints on the lower costing models about the wheels being heavy, big deal, for the price you get those TI bikes for you could afford to spend another $500 on a lighter set of wheels and still be way ahead in the price game against other TI bike manufactures.


----------



## JasonB176

froze said:


> I'm a fan of steel too, but the price of the Motobecane TI bikes have really peaked my interest in buying something a bit lighter for possible racing again; and the price of those Motobecane TI's are about the same as mid end carbon fiber which might weigh 4 to 6 ounces less then TI but the TI would hold up better in real world riding. Then add on top of that that their made in Taiwan instead of China makes for a very good deal. I've been reading all the reviews I could find on those TI bikes and they have been all very positive. There were a few complaints on the lower costing models about the wheels being heavy, big deal, for the price you get those TI bikes for you could afford to spend another $500 on a lighter set of wheels and still be way ahead in the price game against other TI bike manufactures.


I think Ksyrium Elites are the best wheels BD offers. I know they're not the lightest but they are sufficient for my needs/wants. I decided to go for the Team Ti to get these. The DuraAce components meant less to me. I figured it was a good enough deal to spring for the extra money upfront rather than getting new wheels later.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I think Ksyrium Elites are the best wheels BD offers. I know they're not the lightest but they are sufficient for my needs/wants. I decided to go for the Team Ti to get these. The DuraAce components meant less to me. I figured it was a good enough deal to spring for the extra money upfront rather than getting new wheels later.


I think those Elite rims are pretty darn good, but the rims I was referring too were the ones that came on the next bike down with the Ultegra components called the Ksyrium Equipe wheels, I've read reports that they were very strong rims, but some people want lighter weight and more aerodynamic wheels. One thing I didn't mention, if a person buys one of those TI bikes at or near the top of their budget for a bike, they can sell the OEM rims unused at near cost of buying a new set, take the gears and maybe the skewers off, and buy another set of wheels like Kinlins for about $500, put the gears and skewers on them, and then the total outlay for the new rims would only be about $250 to $300. Or of course the other option is to keep the Equipes for everyday riding and buy a set of group rides/race day rims. 

Either way, like I said earlier, a person doing such would still be far far ahead then even buying the next lowest price TI bike on the market the Habanero. Some argue the Lynskey is a great deal, but if you were to put the same components on a Lynskey (R210 or the Cooper frames, their lowest price frames) as you would have with the Motobecane you bought you would be up over $5,500! Of course the detractors argue that the Lynskey is a better frame, we don't really know that for sure if that's true, even if it's a bit better doesn't make it worth another $3,000!!


----------



## PhotoJoe

I just ordered my Lynskey R230. It was a tough decision because of the price of the MB, however, the R230 has the curved rear seat stays and considering this is going to be the only bike I buy in a VERY long time, I wanted to get exactly what I wanted. I'm doing the 105 mix the price is nowhere near $3,000 more. I called them directly and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

BTW, last year Lynskey ran a special on the Cooper with 105 mix for $1,999. I have no idea if they'll do it again, but that was a smoking deal!

What really pushed me to my decision was:
Made in Tennessee
They don't claim to void your warranty if you remove a decal
Call the number, they answer the phone and take all the time you need
My emails were answered within an hour....every time.

Not bashing the BD or Moto bikes. Like I said, I almost bought one. I just finished up a year on chemo and the Lynskey is my reward.

And, as far as wheels go, I would also look at Boyd, Williams and Soul. All have offerings in the $450-$550 range, have great reputations and offer options for us heavier riders (I'm 6'2" 230 lbs).


----------



## froze

I'm not down playing Lynskey's at all, I just can't personally justify spending that kind of money. Granted the Cooper with the 105 group was a good deal; but your settling for a bike with third tier components and even worse wheel set then what Motobecane offers; in addition the Lynskey was only providing a chromoly fork, a CF fork was at least another $200; and the finish on the Lynskey is just dull matte satin vs bright brushed look of the MB, but you could get the bright brushed look from Lynskey but they wanted another $300 to do that. So by the time you tried to spec a Lynskey to match a MB the price was extremely high, putting it out of the reach of most people.

And customer service at Motobecane, actually at Bikes Direct, has been outstanding according to all the reviews and the Better Business Bureau. There have been people here that had minor issues with various parts under warranty and BD quickly sent replacement parts. Anyone can research BD's customer service reviews on the internet and find this information.

Also I checked on the decal removal thing that you mentioned with MB and they stated that if the decals wears off from normal wear and tear it's not a problem, but if you purposely remove the decals then your right the warranty is void, but in that process their saying if you remove all identifying markings of the bike including the head badge. I don't understand why anyone would want to remove all the decals and head badges, but I'm sure there are those who would. And I'm also sure the warranty is voided because they have, or may have no way to ID the frame from other ORO products using the same frame but with different warranties. Not sure if that's really the case though. Also a person here on this forum who hated BD stated that you could not put any other components on the bike then what was stock or the warranty was void, that wasn't true either, BD said you can put any component you want on the bike as long as the changed item does not harm the bike. I wrote BD an e-mail when this subject came up and that was their response.

I'm glad to hear that you went through the chemo and survived the cancer threat. I would say that the Lynskey is a proper award for doing that. Congrats.


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## xtekian

Can anyone with either a 48cm or 51cm bike chime in about their height and inseam, and how their bike fits them? I'm about to spring for a Le Champion Ti but am torn about getting the 48 or 51.

I'm 5"6.5 with a 29.5" inseam. I have a 52cm Caad9 with a 53.5mm top tube. The Caad9 fits well but my shoulder does occasionally hurt a bit after long rides, which I think is a result of its aggressive racing geometry.

The Le Champion Ti size 48 has a 53.5cm top tube and the size 51 has a 54cm top tube, so it doesn't seem like a big difference. I did notice that the size 48 has a 11cm headtube while the 51 has a 13cm headtube. I certainly think the 51 would look a lot better with the bigger head tube, but of course fit should come first 

Can anyone share their pictures of their 48 or 51cm Le Champion? Thank you :-D


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## paulfeng

xtekian said:


> Can anyone with either a 48cm or 51cm bike chime in about their height and inseam, and how their bike fits them? I'm about to spring for a Le Champion Ti but am torn about getting the 48 or 51.
> 
> I'm 5"6.5 with a 29.5" inseam. I have a 52cm Caad9 with a 53.5mm top tube. The Caad9 fits well but my shoulder does occasionally hurt a bit after long rides, which I think is a result of its aggressive racing geometry.
> 
> The Le Champion Ti size 48 has a 53.5cm top tube and the size 51 has a 54cm top tube, so it doesn't seem like a big difference. I did notice that the size 48 has a 11cm headtube while the 51 has a 13cm headtube. I certainly think the 51 would look a lot better with the bigger head tube, but of course fit should come first
> 
> Can anyone share their pictures of their 48 or 51cm Le Champion? Thank you :-D


You may have already read this info from me in another post, but I'll repeat it anyhow.

I am 5' 7&1/4", 32" inseam (actual; buy 30" inseam pants). I have the 51cm and it fits great. It sounds like you understand sizing pretty well and are thinking about the right things, so here are a few more thoughts:

You noted the difference in headtube dimension. Another thing that affects handlebar height is which stem you get with the bike (or add after-market). The higher end Le Champ Ti's come with a -/+ 17 degree stem, while the others come with a -/+ 6 degree stem. A nice online app for trying different stem configurations is:
Stem Chart

Another thing to consider is stem length. The 51cm comes with a 100mm stem. I don't know about the 48cm, but you could do what I did and email bikesdirect to ask. So while the 48cm may only be 5mm shorter in the TT, if it comes with a 90mm stem then there will be an approximately 15mm difference in reach from the saddle to bars. How long is the stem on your CAAD?

I ought to have some good photos of my bike, given that photography is another hobby, but unfortunately I do not yet. Aesthetically, the shorter head tube of the 51cm compared to whatever size frame they photographed for the bikesdirect website does make the 51cm look not quite as nice, in my opinion, as the bigger frames - I think because it makes the big downtube look bigger in comparison. The 48cm would take that another step further.

Have you emailed BD and asked what they think for your fit?

Good luck, I now have 1400 miles in on my LeChamp Ti SL and just love it.


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## xtekian

paulfeng said:


> You may have already read this info from me in another post, but I'll repeat it anyhow.
> 
> I am 5' 7&1/4", 32" inseam (actual; buy 30" inseam pants). I have the 51cm and it fits great. It sounds like you understand sizing pretty well and are thinking about the right things, so here are a few more thoughts:


Thanks for the help! I did some more research on this and I measured my real inseam to be 30.5" :thumbsup: I then decided to run my measurements through Competitive Cyclists's fit calculator and according to the "Eddy fit," I should be getting a 51-52cm bike with a top tube of 54cm -- so I'm thinking I'd fit best on the size 51 Le Champ.

I switched out my stem on my Caad9 to an 8cm so I'll probably end up doing that on the Motobecane as well.

I'm thinking about getting the Le Champ Ti Apex -- wish the Rival was in stock since it's only $100 more but BD said they wouldn't be in stock until late July. I actually live somehwere with no hills within 50 miles so it doesn't make much sense for me to get the WiFli on the Apex either. But for $1600 the bike's a steal, so I can't really complain!


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## harrypy

I am 5' 7" and my "bicycle inseam" (stand in your bike shoes with back against the wall and use a hard-back book etc.) is a shade under 31" and the 48cm Le Champ Ti SL works fine for me (with plenty of stand-over height which I like). I wouldn't want it to be any smaller, however, so perhaps the 51 would have worked fine for me as well. 

I was a little hesitant when ordering the Le Champ to get the 51 because the 52 cm Fantom Cross Team Ti I had purchased earlier (my "wet" bike for commuting and gravel trails) was somewhat marginal on stand-over height. But then that bike doesn't have as much slope to the top tube as the Le Champ.

My wife is 5' 2" and 29.5" bike inseam and she also has the 48 cm Le Champ Ti (the one with the FSA crank and lower gearing which she really likes) and it fits fine for her as well. So that might give you another data point.


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## Gary in WI

*Ti Size - 48 or 51*

I'm 5'6" with a 29" inseam. I went with the base 51cm Ultegra/FSA model in October 2009 and am pleased with the fit. I have a hard time picturing people taller than I am going with a 48cm. I now have over 10,000 miles on the bike, including a 3,800 mile supported cross-country tour, where it performed flawlessly.

I have made a few modifications to better suit my riding style and the cross-country trip. I replaced the 50T chainwheel with a 46T and now run with a 11/34 cassette. Not very macho, but I found I can keep in the big chainwheel more and am able to spin up any mountain with 34/34 gearing. I thought I would go back to the stock 11/28 cassette, but am now reluctant to lose the lower gearing.

Oh, and be sure to replace the crap stock brake pads with Kool Stops.


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## xtekian

Thanks for your input Garry and Harrypy. Unfortunately this does complicate my decision slightly. Can anyone share their 48/51cm photos of their Le Champion Ti? Thank you!


----------



## JasonB176

It seems everyone's desired fit is a bit different. I am 5'8" and the 53cm fits perfectly. I would not have wanted a smaller frame.

On another note, I have now ridden about 200 miles without any slip on the seatpost. I'm not sure what has corrected the problem. My best guess is the wear on the post from my numerous adjustments and markings on it has created enough of a rougher surface that there is more grip to it. I'm very happy to have this problem solved.


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## Dresden

JasonB176 said:


> It seems everyone's desired fit is a bit different. I am 5'8" and the 53cm fits perfectly. I would not have wanted a smaller frame.


I'm 5'7" and ride the size 53 with a 9cm stem. Most people would probably say the frame is a size too large for me, but I've been riding for about 25 years and knew the type of fit I was looking for. I've had my Le Champ Ti for just over 4 years now, and a ride rarely goes by without me thinking what a great purchase it was at some point during my ride.

To xtekian, I'd say go with the 51 for the taller head tube instead of the 48 if you're looking for something more relaxed than your CAAD.


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## paulfeng

paulfeng said:


> I am 5' 7&1/4", 32" inseam (actual; buy 30" inseam pants). I have the 51cm and it fits great. It sounds like you understand sizing pretty well and are thinking about the right things, so here are a few more thoughts:


FWIW, my 32" inseam was measured barefoot, so I guess in cycling shoes it would be another ~1/2"?


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## ramkitty

I am ~5'7 and inseam is 31" I skeptically purchased the 48cm frame and I am very glad I did as it is perfect. The reach is comfortable balance is perfect. I am in the works of just completing the stem height but I think I have the bike fit well.


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## xtekian

For anyone that's still curious, I've decided to... keep my current bike and upgrade it! My 52cm Caad9. I was able to nab a new Sram Rival groupset for under $700, which should also leave me with enough money to buy a new set of wheels.

It's sort of a downer, I know, but I'm still young (25) and I decided that I don't really need the "comfort" of a Ti bike yet, I can always get a plush bike in the future. Thanks though to everyone who helped!


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## habu987

After reading through this thread, some of the other threads on the forum, and reviews elsewhere online, I've decided to get the Moto LeChamp Ti for my first road bike. Ordering it in a week and a half. Can't wait!

This has been an awesome forum!


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## froze

habu987 said:


> After reading through this thread, some of the other threads on the forum, and reviews elsewhere online, I've decided to get the Moto LeChamp Ti for my first road bike. Ordering it in a week and a half. Can't wait!
> 
> This has been an awesome forum!


Congrats, you chose a fine bicycle. 

Once you get it make sure to have it professionally assembled unless you know how to do that sort of thing. Also make sure the spokes are tensioned correctly, the derailleurs are set up right., the headset is adjusted correctly, and bottom bracket is adjusted correctly as well. This might cost you $75 to $125 to have a shop do it, but it could save you a headache.

Then once you have all that done and you rode it for awhile let us know what you think of the bike and it's components.


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## habu987

froze said:


> Congrats, you chose a fine bicycle.
> 
> Once you get it make sure to have it professionally assembled unless you know how to do that sort of thing. Also make sure the spokes are tensioned correctly, the derailleurs are set up right., the headset is adjusted correctly, and bottom bracket is adjusted correctly as well. This might cost you $75 to $125 to have a shop do it, but it could save you a headache.
> 
> Then once you have all that done and you rode it for awhile let us know what you think of the bike and it's components.



Yeah, definitely. I've got some long time cyclist friends who are going to help with the initial assembly, but I'll take it into a shop afterwards to get it adjusted and fitted.


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## froze

habu987 said:


> Yeah, definitely. I've got some long time cyclist friends who are going to help with the initial assembly, but I'll take it into a shop afterwards to get it adjusted and fitted.


I mentioned that because a person who is a forum member here took the BD bike to a LBS for assembly but they failed to check the bike over carefully. A chain had a pin not inserted fully and it grabbed the rear derailleur on it's maiden voyage and broke the derailleur and the chain, BD quickly replaced both. That's why it's important to have it fully gone over. This sort of thing happens to bikes bought in LBS's too because the LBS just slaps it together out of the box, adjusts stuff and puts it out for sale without checking spoke tension, chains etc. There's been complaints about LBS bikes wheels breaking spokes because they didn't bother to check the tension. These things happen, so I'm just giving you a heads up in hopes problems won't occur.


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## habu987

Right, and that's why I'm having a LBS do all the adjustments and the fitting after we get the bike put together. Thanks for the tip and hopefully there are no issues!


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## Will Be Was

*My Moto 49cm cross TI*


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## froze

Will Be Was said:


>


Sweet, how long have you had it? And what do you think after owning it for awhile? Did you make any changes? if so what and why?


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## Will Be Was

*My Moto 49cm Fantom Cross Team Titanium*

Only thing I changed on the bike is the tires, it has Conti Gatorskin 700x32. The Kenda tires that came with it that you see it in the pictures was so soft, you would not want to wonder around much with them, rest is same as in the picture, it has Bontrager computer, Shimano PD M540 SPD pedals. Although BD send me Shimano 105 PD-5700 SPD-SL for free, but I always use SPD on my bikes.
I had the bike about 8 months for me it has a very plush ride, I have 800 miles on it. No problems with any component so far. 
Now I have my eye on the Motobecane Century Elite for $1600.00 it is also a good deal


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## froze

^ ^ It's a great looking bike. 

I too have my eye on either the Moto Le Champ SL TI, or the Moto Le Champion TI Inferno. I also was looking at the Century Team TI but I want a lighter bike, the Century Team I think weighs about 18 pounds, I have bikes close to that same weight now (20 being my lightest), but the road bikes they have weigh about 16 pounds for the Inferno and 17 for the SL, so I'm leaning towards the Inferno since it has nicer wheels. Plus I already have two bikes that are my touring/century bikes. But I've had to put this purchase on hold due to an investment I'm trying to get going first.


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## ramkitty

Did my first big ride today 71km in 2:24min which included 1080m climb. Quite pleased with myself and I love my Ti Inferno. This was a lifetime goal of mine.


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## froze

ramkitty said:


> Did my first big ride today 71km in 2:24min which included 1080m climb. Quite pleased with myself and I love my Ti Inferno. This was a lifetime goal of mine.


Have you done a review yet on this site for your bike? I would love to hear more about the Inferno since that is the one I am most seriously considering.


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## ramkitty

I have not and considering I came from a early 90s rocky mountain hardtail I dont know what insight I can offer. Shifting is quick especially upshifting. The wheels are really nice following along my daughter I will pass her without pedaling and the bike is super smooth like it has some suspension built in. I tested some aluminum like the spec allez and they were way more harsh.

I did get clocked by a highway sign going 80kmh and I passed a few cars going downhill through some twisties on the same highway, its super quick but not having a gps or computer its hard to tell my max.


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## froze

ramkitty said:


> I have not and considering I came from a early 90s rocky mountain hardtail I dont know what insight I can offer. Shifting is quick especially upshifting. The wheels are really nice following along my daughter I will pass her without pedaling and the bike is super smooth like it has some suspension built in. I tested some aluminum like the spec allez and they were way more harsh.
> 
> I did get clocked by a highway sign going 80kmh and I passed a few cars going downhill through some twisties on the same highway, its super quick but not having a gps or computer its hard to tell my max.


Well that was actually good info, especially the ride quality. So thanks for sharing that info.

80kmh? that's just a tick under 50mph, you were flying. I assume that speed clock was on a downhill?


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## ramkitty

I came down a 8-9% or so into a flatter section where I kept on the gas and then got clocked by the sign. I dont think I coasted for more than a few hundred meters over the whole distance. My first ride with the bike was mid may and before that the furthest I have ever done was around 15km.


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## froze

ramkitty said:


> I came down a 8-9% or so into a flatter section where I kept on the gas and then got clocked by the sign. I dont think I coasted for more than a few hundred meters over the whole distance. My first ride with the bike was mid may and before that the furthest I have ever done was around 15km.


Is the crank a compact geared crank? Going fast on a bike is fun, I once came down Tram Way in Palms Springs California years ago and got my bike up to 58 according to the computer. Can't recall the grade percentage for that road, but it's fairly long, and a bear to ride up!


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## ramkitty

no its the 53-39 with a 28-11 cassette that came on the inferno. I think I got to around 55 later on and even hit a rumble strip which was a big surprise and thankfully manageable.


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## froze

ramkitty said:


> no its the 53-39 with a 28-11 cassette that came on the inferno. I think I got to around 55 later on and even hit a rumble strip which was a big surprise and thankfully manageable.


Aren't rumble strips great! I don't mind them, not to ride across, but if there's a wide shoulder and you can ride right of the strips then you have a audio aid should a car wonder across it that's behind you. In some aspects their great, but in other aspects their a pain. I had to ride left of a strip once which put me on the paint because there was no shoulder on the right side of the strip, that put me a little closer to 55mph traffic then I like to be. Here in Indiana they have vicious rumble strips, they'll rattle your teeth loose! 

I think that's how my aluminum racing bike cracked it's frame at the top of the head tube, because I didn't hit anything, and I remember having to cross the rumble strip, and about a week later I noticed the crack when cleaning the bike which wasn't there when I cleaned the bike week or so before I ran across the strip. Odd thing, the aluminum fork wasn't damaged, so I saved it and the components of course, not sure what to do with the fork since AL forks are considered death forks.


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## gdfred88

I'm 6' even and have a 33.5-34" inseam. I've been riding a Scott Sportster P2 Hybrid and I am not certain which size Moto LeChap Ti I should go for. 

(The roads here in central TX are all solid rumble strips so I'm thinking my 235lb carcass would not be nice to a CF frame. I commute between 18 and 36miles a day, depending if I do 1-way or 2-way).

I am thinking the 58 is correct, but I would like input from those of you who have experience with this bike.

Thanks, Greg


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## froze

gdfred88 said:


> I'm 6' even and have a 33.5-34" inseam. I've been riding a Scott Sportster P2 Hybrid and I am not certain which size Moto LeChap Ti I should go for.
> 
> (The roads here in central TX are all solid rumble strips so I'm thinking my 235lb carcass would not be nice to a CF frame. I commute between 18 and 36miles a day, depending if I do 1-way or 2-way).
> 
> I am thinking the 58 is correct, but I would like input from those of you who have experience with this bike.
> 
> Thanks, Greg


Competitive Cyclist, a on line store, has a fitting guide; see: Fit Calculator - Competitive Cyclist 

I'm also 6' tall with a 34" inseam, when I ran the calculator, which I did it twice, it came out to a 59 being the closest for me in the Motobecane TI road bikes, You take all the measurements they ask for on the calculator then you look at the Motobecane geometry page for the bike your wanting and compare the measurements the calculator gives you to what size bike matches the closest. Like I said, for me that was the 59 but that was for the Titanium bikes not the carbon fiber models, so you have to do the calculator.


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## habu987

froze said:


> Competitive Cyclist, a on line store, has a fitting guide; see: Fit Calculator - Competitive Cyclist
> 
> I'm also 6' tall with a 34" inseam, when I ran the calculator, which I did it twice, it came out to a 59 being the closest for me in the Motobecane TI road bikes, You take all the measurements they ask for on the calculator then you look at the Motobecane geometry page for the bike your wanting and compare the measurements the calculator gives you to what size bike matches the closest. Like I said, for me that was the 59 but that was for the Titanium bikes not the carbon fiber models, so you have to do the calculator.


I just did the CC fit calculator. I'm 5'9" with an approximate 29.5" inseam. On a side note, I'm first and foremost a competitive swimmer, so the long (relatively speaking) torso works great for that, but makes me look out of proportion out of the water... 

Anyways, the fit calculator spat out an effective top tube range of 56.6-58.2 cm, depending on which fit I go for. Looking at the Motobecane site, the ETTs are 54cm for the 51, 55cm for the 53, and 57.2cm for the 56. The 56 is the closest to the range that CC gives me, but given what other folks have said on here, that sounds rather large. Given, it's a whopping inch longer than the 53, but is it something to worry about?


----------



## froze

habu987 said:


> I just did the CC fit calculator. I'm 5'9" with an approximate 29.5" inseam. On a side note, I'm first and foremost a competitive swimmer, so the long (relatively speaking) torso works great for that, but makes me look out of proportion out of the water...
> 
> Anyways, the fit calculator spat out an effective top tube range of 56.6-58.2 cm, depending on which fit I go for. Looking at the Motobecane site, the ETTs are 54cm for the 51, 55cm for the 53, and 57.2cm for the 56. The 56 is the closest to the range that CC gives me, but given what other folks have said on here, that sounds rather large. Given, it's a whopping inch longer than the 53, but is it something to worry about?


If you noticed the end result on the fit calculator gave you 3 fit scenarios, the first one was aggressive, the second one a more moderate position that is in between the two, and the third one is for more comfort. So you should decide what kind of riding position you want, if your a racer wanting the most aggressive position then take the first one, if you have problems with your neck and back getting into that kind of position or just want a more comfortable bike for long rides then chose the comfort position, the middle of the road would probably be more for someone wanting to do fast competitive centuries. 

Did you take your measurements twice to make sure they came out the same? Also you can e-mail BD and tell them your particulars on the measurements and let them advise.

There is a element of risk when ordering a factory made bike off the internet due to the size issues, fortunately for me my body doesn't care a whole lot, I ride bikes ranging from 55 to 58 and never have any "fit" issues, once I have the pedal position, seat and bars dialed in, which I do all myself by trial and error (which could take 2 weeks of riding to dial it in) and not through a pro fitter, then I'm good to go. So you have to decide, use the fit calculator and get your bike that way, or follow the advise of others who haven't seen your measurements. 

Also keep in mind that handlebar reach may be off a few CC's when you get the bike, sometimes you may need to get a new shorter or longer stem. A lot of initial fit problems are simple that may require a part or two. You would have to do this if you bought a floor model bike at an LBS. I haven't looked at the bike your questioning but most bikes today you can flip the stem to make the bars a bit higher or bit lower depending on how it was originally put on.

You always have the option if it doesn't fit quite right on arrival to take it to a pro fitter, but over the years I've found people who used them to come out about 50% better and 50% worse and all left about $500 poorer due to the cost of the fit and stuff bought that the LBS said they needed. so unless you know a real good fitter I would avoid those. The other option is to return the bike, make sure you read their return policy to make sure you do it right, and then get the next size smaller or larger depending upon the problem, but the return cost is on you and I think the new bike cost to ship is on you.


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## JasonB176

I seem to be in the minority but I don't mind the Ritchey PRO road saddle that came with the bike. I've done enough rides including three over 50 miles on it to give it a good test and I find it quite comfortable. I'd put it on par with the Specialized Body Geometry saddles I have on my other two bikes.

I continue to have no problems with it in general. The seat post now is holding for every ride. If you don't mind some scatches on the post, intentionally scoring it up some might help if this is an issue for others. The bike is a pleasure to ride.


----------



## SlurpeeKing

I never even tried the Ritchey pro ride saddle, I swapped to a Specialized Avatar expert before I rode it. Maybe I should have tried it out first.


----------



## froze

There are few good saddles on the market these days. I like the Brooks Swift and the Fizik Aliante, also I've great reviews from the Selle SMP models and the Terry TI Fly saddles. But saddles are unique to every person.


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## ramkitty

I also do not mind the saddle but being a newbie I have little to compare it to, on my 71km I only got out of the saddle to give my quads a break on the hills.


----------



## gdfred88

*QUESTION:* If two bikes are equipped 100% the same as far as components go, IS a titanium frame worth an additional $500???

Please tell me why or why not. 

(I'm looking at the Motobecane LeChampion SL Ti and the Condor S6F. Both with full Shimano Ultegra all the way...)

Thanks.


----------



## bruin11

gdfred88 said:


> *QUESTION:* If two bikes are equipped 100% the same as far as components go, IS a titanium frame worth an additional $500???
> 
> Please tell me why or why not.
> 
> (I'm looking at the Motobecane LeChampion SL Ti and the Condor S6F. Both with full Shimano Ultegra all the way...)
> 
> Thanks.


They are not equipped the same. The Ti has Ultegra brakes, Condor has Tecktro, it has a better level of Ritchey components for saddle, stem, bars and seatpost, bottom bracket is better. Don't know if that is worth an extra $500 but they definitely not equipped the same.


----------



## froze

gdfred88 said:


> *QUESTION:* If two bikes are equipped 100% the same as far as components go, IS a titanium frame worth an additional $500???
> 
> Please tell me why or why not.
> 
> (I'm looking at the Motobecane LeChampion SL Ti and the Condor S6F. Both with full Shimano Ultegra all the way...)
> 
> Thanks.


TI are all but crash resistant, whereas CF is not. TI bikes are a lifetime bike meaning it will out live you, CF will not. TI bikes are a tad heavier generally, but while higher end CF bikes are lighter the average consumer CF bike is about the same with some even heavier. Ride characteristics will vary for each depending on geometry, construction, wheels, tires and even saddle; most fitness riders like the ride of TI because they say it feels smoother, most racing type of riders like the ride of CF because they say it's more responsive, ie: firmer and lighter...but again racers will ride upper middle to upper end CF bikes. Motobecane TI bikes (the frames) have a 100 year warranty, their CF frames have a 5 year warranty...that should tell you what companies think of the durability of TI vs CF.

Personally, and this strictly a personal opinion, I would never buy a CF bike and I would especially stay away from Chinese made CF bikes. At the price range of the Bikes Direct Motobecane TI bikes, there is no reason for NOT to pay the additional $500 for it, especially considering the next lowest cost TI bike will cost at least an additional $2,000 for a similarly equipped TI bike! The low end Moto TI bike is the exact same frame as their highest end one, the only difference is components and wheels. If money is an object, you buy the lowest costing one then later when something wears out you replace it with an upgraded part.

This forum has a fantastic review section. Just go to the review tab and then enter in the bikes brand and model, or search by brand, and read all the reviews done by owners of whatever bike your looking for. So far the reviews for the Motobecane TI line of bikes have been extremely positive, but read them for yourself, and also read about their CF bikes.


----------



## JasonB176

*Comparison with bike shop offerings*

I came upon this website for a bike shop that offers quite a few brands of road bikes:
Road - Wheelworks Bicycle Stores and Cycling Centers

Its interface offers an easy way to compare many models quickly. I was blown away by what you get for the various price ranges compared to what BikesDirect gives. I looked through Trek and Specialized and even their top models don't come with DuraAce and their mid to high level bikes are equipped with very mediocre wheels at best. I don't doubt some of the higher end carbon frames are very nice but you're paying top dollar for them!

It's just made me appreciate more the deal I got. It was admittedly stressful dealing with mail-order and then having my LBS to assemble it but in the end, it was so worth it. I never could have come close to having the bike I currently own if I went the bike shop route. Not paying sales tax and shipping more than covered the cost of having my LBS assemble it.

I don't know if it's just a secret most people don't know about or whether there's some perceived stigma about BikesDirect or whether a lot of consumers just need that in-person interaction that a bike shop offers. Whatever the reason(s) may be, you sure have to pay for that bike shop experience. 

I recently bought a replacement wheel for my Jamis at another bike shop (not the one that assembled my BD bike) and the atmosphere was fun. I plan on going to that shop for future issues because of that. But for purchasing a new bike? No way. I know I went the right route with BD.


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## froze

I think there are people that are just mad against BD because they paid more money and got less a bike then what BD can offer, especially BD's bikes at the higher price points, so they scream and kick against BD; and some of those angered folk are owners of LBS's, so they go out of their way to make BD sound bad.

My purchase of a Motobecane TI bike has been put off indefinitely due to being laid off from work because of my accident that killed a drunk driver and injured my back, the injury is what got me laid off. Till I can work again and restore lost savings etc then the bike is on a back burner. I have enough bikes so it's not a big deal, it was a want not a need, if that makes sense.


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## gdfred88

I've only had my Le Champ SL Ti for a couple of weeks and a couple hundred miles. But I know I got an unbeatable deal.

I am very happy with the purchase. The seat clamp cracked as I was tightening it and BD responded to my email within less than 6 hours and had a replacement in Priority Mail the same day. 

I was a little concerned giving anyone $2.1k for a bike sight unseen, but it was a great decision.


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## SlurpeeKing

froze said:


> My purchase of a Motobecane TI bike has been put off indefinitely due to being laid off from work because of my accident that killed a drunk driver and injured my back, the injury is what got me laid off. Till I can work again and restore lost savings etc then the bike is on a back burner. I have enough bikes so it's not a big deal, it was a want not a need, if that makes sense.


holy crap, did the drunk driver hit you and died? I hope you can go after their insurance, that's a crappy way to lose your job. sorry man!


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## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> holy crap, did the drunk driver hit you and died? I hope you can go after their insurance, that's a crappy way to lose your job. sorry man!


I posted about this last month though it happened in the summer of last year. I was cruising down a 2 lane highway, which will remain unnamed since there is record of it and my name is private, going about 55 to 57 mph and a drunk driver came out of a dense tree line which unabled me to see the vehicle till he was about 20 or so feet from a stop sign that T'd onto the highway which I was on. He failed to stop for the sign and I T-Boned him at about 55. The momentum of us slid us across the other lane into a guard rail and tore out about 100 feet of that. The drunk wasn't wearing a seat belt which in this case wouldn't have helped him since I tore through the drivers door. Yes, he died instantly. I was trapped inside the car and a witness who was a former military medic called out to me which I responded to check the other driver first even though I was pretty sure he was gone, and the medic said he got no response with no hope of survival. So he asked me how I was doing and I some minor pain in my lower back so I didn't think anything of it, after all I was just in a horrific crash! So the rescue units arrived and it took them about 30 minutes of cutting the car apart to get me out. I was able to walk just fine but they took me to the hospital as a precaution. At the hospital they took X-rays and discovered the source of mild pain, my last disk in the tail bone area slipped, later when I got back home the MRI proved it would need fusion.

I knew a good orthopedic doc in town because he rides bicycles, so I had him do the surgery since he assured me that it wouldn't effect my ability to ride a bike, but it would effect me from doing other things the way I was use to doing. Without the surgery the back would just get steadily worse to the point of pinching nerves etc. My place of employment was nice enough to keep me around almost a year after the accident with lot's of time off but full pay, but I was virtually unable to drive or fly for the company anymore so they had no choice but to lay me off...which I knew that was going to happen eventually because of the injury. 

The state police investigation proved without a shadow of a doubt it wasn't my fault and the medic witness said there was nothing anyone could have done to avoid it. The other party's family has tried suing because I was working for my company at the time, (deep pockets type of BS) but that was dismissed. So now I'm waiting for settlements from Workers comp and the other party's insurance, all of which could take a couple of years to resolve. 

So there's my life's story for the last year, not too exciting huh? I'm just glad I can ride my bike, but I can't run more then 10 feet without severe discomfort, nor can I walk comfortably for more then 1/8th of mile probably due to the TI hardware rubbing against something inside. I can ride a bike fairly comfortable and have ridden up to 68 miles since the surgery, but the doc did say it wouldn't be much of a problem riding.


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> I posted about this last month though it happened in the summer of last year. I was cruising down a 2 lane highway, which will remain unnamed since there is record of it and my name is private, going about 55 to 57 mph and a drunk driver came out of a dense tree line which unabled me to see the vehicle till he was about 20 or so feet from a stop sign that T'd onto the highway which I was on. He failed to stop for the sign and I T-Boned him at about 55. The momentum of us slid us across the other lane into a guard rail and tore out about 100 feet of that. The drunk wasn't wearing a seat belt which in this case wouldn't have helped him since I tore through the drivers door. Yes, he died instantly. I was trapped inside the car and a witness who was a former military medic called out to me which I responded to check the other driver first even though I was pretty sure he was gone, and the medic said he got no response with no hope of survival. So he asked me how I was doing and I some minor pain in my lower back so I didn't think anything of it, after all I was just in a horrific crash! So the rescue units arrived and it took them about 30 minutes of cutting the car apart to get me out. I was able to walk just fine but they took me to the hospital as a precaution. At the hospital they took X-rays and discovered the source of mild pain, my last disk in the tail bone area slipped, later when I got back home the MRI proved it would need fusion.
> 
> I knew a good orthopedic doc in town because he rides bicycles, so I had him do the surgery since he assured me that it wouldn't effect my ability to ride a bike, but it would effect me from doing other things the way I was use to doing. Without the surgery the back would just get steadily worse to the point of pinching nerves etc. My place of employment was nice enough to keep me around almost a year after the accident with lot's of time off but full pay, but I was virtually unable to drive or fly for the company anymore so they had no choice but to lay me off...which I knew that was going to happen eventually because of the injury.
> 
> The state police investigation proved without a shadow of a doubt it wasn't my fault and the medic witness said there was nothing anyone could have done to avoid it. The other party's family has tried suing because I was working for my company at the time, (deep pockets type of BS) but that was dismissed. So now I'm waiting for settlements from Workers comp and the other party's insurance, all of which could take a couple of years to resolve.
> 
> So there's my life's story for the last year, not too exciting huh? I'm just glad I can ride my bike, but I can't run more then 10 feet without severe discomfort, nor can I walk comfortably for more then 1/8th of mile probably due to the TI hardware rubbing against something inside. I can ride a bike fairly comfortable and have ridden up to 68 miles since the surgery, but the doc did say it wouldn't be much of a problem riding.


Wow, I had no idea that happened to you! I'm really sorry. All things considered, I guess it could have been worse given the speed you were traveling at upon impact. That must have been quite a grade to get you to that velocity.

I'm happy that you're still able to ride. I find I get depressed when I can't - mainly when I'm sick. It's bad enough that you are in the situation of being laid off through no fault of your own and having to wait years for a settlement. At least riding gives you an outlet especially when even walking is difficult. The drunk's family had some nerve suing you!


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## froze

JasonB176 said:


> Wow, I had no idea that happened to you! I'm really sorry. All things considered, I guess it could have been worse given the speed you were traveling at upon impact. That must have been quite a grade to get you to that velocity.
> 
> I'm happy that you're still able to ride. I find I get depressed when I can't - mainly when I'm sick. It's bad enough that you are in the situation of being laid off through no fault of your own and having to wait years for a settlement. At least riding gives you an outlet especially when even walking is difficult. The drunk's family had some nerve suing you!


Grade for velocity, not sure what you mean. I was on a level highway doing a steady 55 to 57 mph.

Depression? None. Not saying that I didn't wish that his outcome would have been successful, but he took his life into his own hands when he drove drunk and then failed to obey signs, I didn't take his life, he took it. I had a slight degree of anger towards the man because this moron left a 16 year old daughter behind with no means to support her so she had to go to foster care, and obvious some anger due to the injury he created. But life is life, it has it's ups and downs, and you have to go with the flow and not get angry or depressed because getting angry and depressed does nothing for you except make you feel worse. I'm not into that. I take life as it comes, I could have died that day or been permanently crippled, but I didn't due to the grace of God, and my injury in light of the seriousness of the accident is nothing compared to what it could have been. And for that I'm grateful of the outcome. 

I still can ride my bike like I mentioned in the last post, but I can't run at all nor walk far, nor sit in car or airplane seat for long periods of time, not suppose to pick up more then 40 pounds, due to low body fat I have no fat cushion to prevent me feeling the TI hardware when laying on my back or sitting in a chair, just weird stuff.


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> Grade for velocity, not sure what you mean. I was on a level highway doing a steady 55 to 57 mph.
> 
> Depression? None. Not saying that I didn't wish that his outcome would have been successful, but he took his life into his own hands when he drove drunk and then failed to obey signs, I didn't take his life, he took it. I had a slight degree of anger towards the man because this moron left a 16 year old daughter behind with no means to support her so she had to go to foster care, and obvious some anger due to the injury he created. But life is life, it has it's ups and downs, and you have to go with the flow and not get angry or depressed because getting angry and depressed does nothing for you except make you feel worse. I'm not into that. I take life as it comes, I could have died that day or been permanently crippled, but I didn't due to the grace of God, and my injury in light of the seriousness of the accident is nothing compared to what it could have been. And for that I'm grateful of the outcome.
> 
> I still can ride my bike like I mentioned in the last post, but I can't run at all nor walk far, nor sit in car or airplane seat for long periods of time, not suppose to pick up more then 40 pounds, due to low body fat I have no fat cushion to prevent me feeling the TI hardware when laying on my back or sitting in a chair, just weird stuff.


Oh, I thought you were on your bike! I was thinking the impact of the crash placed you into the drunk's car.


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## froze

JasonB176 said:


> Oh, I thought you were on your bike! I was thinking the impact of the crash placed you into the drunk's car.


I wish I could do 55 mph on level ground on my bike!!!!!! 

The paramedics had to cut me out of my company car to get me out, that took about 30 minutes due to the severe damage of the car from the impact with the other vehicle and the ensuing crash into the guardrail.

That drunk came out of that stop sign at about 50mph...if I hadn't been there he would have shot into the guardrail! There was no way he could have turned his vehicle at 50mph at a 90 degree turn into the left lane. Maybe he just wanted to see what was on the other side of the guardrail. Nothing but a 70 foot drop to a creek below.


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## drteming

I just ordered the Apex model. This is my first road bike in 20 years. I used to ride a lot until I got lazy and fat. I finally got off my butt 5 years ago and got back into shape. For the past couple of years, I have been running a lot (and doing relatively well at that--3:38 marathon, placing in my age group for 5 and 10k's). This spring, I got back on my late 80's Specialized mountain bike with 1.5" slicks and rediscovered the joy of cycling. 

Interestingly, I looked up ORA Engineering. It's located in the same city in which I was born and it's only about 5 kilometers (as the crow flies) from my ancestral home. Cool!


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## jackfish

Finally took some pictures of my 2012 Motobecane LeChampion Titanium.


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## froze

Very nice.


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## Wile_E_Coyote

I have a few questions for you Le Champion owners, especially those that switched from aluminum or CF bikes. I'm currently on a Cannondle Six13, which is a mix of aluminum and carbon. While not the stiffest performance bike out there, it does ok. I've always liked the ti frames and this one is a reasonable option for me given cost. I'm curious about the stiffness of this frame, and could some of you relate your experiences in that area? Thanks.


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## JasonB176

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> I have a few questions for you Le Champion owners, especially those that switched from aluminum or CF bikes. I'm currently on a Cannondle Six13, which is a mix of aluminum and carbon. While not the stiffest performance bike out there, it does ok. I've always liked the ti frames and this one is a reasonable option for me given cost. I'm curious about the stiffness of this frame, and could some of you relate your experiences in that area? Thanks.


I think a lot of it comes down to preference and personal opinion. For me, my Ti bike provides plenty of stiffness but also an exceptional ride quality. I love its responsiveness but yet feel noticeably less beat up than with my other bikes after long rides.


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## jtrops

jackfish said:


> nally took some pictures of my 2012 Motobecane LeChampion Titanium.


I'm thinking about getting one of these, and like everyone else I'm having a hard time figuring out the size. What size is this, and how tall are you? Inseam could help too.


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## ej86923

Hello, just got back into cycling. I tried to post a new topic to ask this question but I do not have enough posts to post? Yeah I didn't get that one either. Anyway I am 6'5 currently about 240# I would really like to get a Le Champion Ti. My question is, is there any downside to someone my size getting a Ti bike? As in flexing or any issues that I have not found. Any bigger guys that have this bike care to share there opinions. Greatly appreciated


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## vautrain

ej86923 said:


> Hello, just got back into cycling. I tried to post a new topic to ask this question but I do not have enough posts to post? Yeah I didn't get that one either. Anyway I am 6'5 currently about 240# I would really like to get a Le Champion Ti. My question is, is there any downside to someone my size getting a Ti bike? As in flexing or any issues that I have not found. Any bigger guys that have this bike care to share there opinions. Greatly appreciated


Titanium would probably be an excellent choice for someone your size, in terms of flexing and longevity. I'd be concerned with fatiguing/failure with carbon fiber and aluminum. At your weight, the wheelset you choose will have a huge impact on perceived stiffness of the bike.


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## ej86923

vautrain said:


> Titanium would probably be an excellent choice for someone your size, in terms of flexing and longevity. I'd be concerned with fatiguing/failure with carbon fiber and aluminum. At your weight, the wheelset you choose will have a huge impact on perceived stiffness of the bike.


Thanks for the reply, yes I was already thinking the same thing about wheels. Do any of the Le champ models come with a suitable heavy duty set or would i just be better off figuring a set of wheels into my budget from the start? I'm guessing either 32 or 36 spoke even at the sake of some weight just for peace of mind of not having to true/ replace spokes frequently. Any input would be appreciated.


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## froze

ej86923 said:


> Thanks for the reply, yes I was already thinking the same thing about wheels. Do any of the Le champ models come with a suitable heavy duty set or would i just be better off figuring a set of wheels into my budget from the start? I'm guessing either 32 or 36 spoke even at the sake of some weight just for peace of mind of not having to true/ replace spokes frequently. Any input would be appreciated.


The lowest price one comes with fairly hefty wheels, but the way I see it is I would rather spend the money and get the better wheels and then go down and buy a cheap set of road wheels for $400 range for the pair and save the lighter ones for fast club riding or racing if I decide to go back into that. The lowest costing Motobecane TI is the same frame as the most expensive just the components are upgraded, so if you don't need the fancier components go with the lowest costing one and get the sturdier wheels. Or if you want more of commuting bike take a look at the Motobecane Century TI bike, it's a tad heavier then the lowest costing Motobecane road TI bike due to the beefed up frame to handle rear touring loads and stouter wider rims; or even consider the Motobecane TI cross bike which is even more stout to handle light touring and mild off road riding.


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## SlurpeeKing

Frame is stiff, but i do feel my wheels flex when i really crank it. Overall I love the ride and compared to my alum/cf fork combo it's worlds better. I've put 1400 miles on it since March with zero issues.


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## jackfish

53cm, I'm 5'10", 32.5" inseam measured from crotch to floor with a book pushed up into crotch.


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## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> Frame is stiff, but i do feel my wheels flex when i really crank it. Overall I love the ride and compared to my alum/cf fork combo it's worlds better. I've put 1400 miles on it since March with zero issues.


silly me, I forgot you had already purchased the bike. The wheel flexing thing is a bit odd since those wheels do get high reviews. Try taking the wheels down to an LBS and have them check them, the wheel may need retensioning.


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## mattheis

Ive had my eye on the Red equipped Inferno for some time. I gave myself a couple weeks to think about it and then the New Red was introduced. On a Ti bike I think the old Red looks a lot cleaner and less flashy, but the revamp Sram did to the new set seems pretty solid and worth the wait, at least on paper.

They knocked a couple hundred off the current 2012, and most are out of stock, except for the 51 that is still calling my name. The team29ers and CX bikes are out for 2013, so hopefully the roads are soon to follow.


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## usn.mustanger

Great thread, thanks OP for getting this discussion rolling and for keeping it updated.
Quick question--I'm in the market for my first (ever) road bike, and I've really been eying the MB Ti bikes. To the point, my question is, is the LeChamp SL Ti really $300 better than the LeChamp Ti? I see the wheels, BB, and Ritchey components are different (WCS for SL, PRO for non-SL). Would these differences warrant the extra $300 for a newb like myself? I know $300 might seem trivial to some, but when it comes to justifying such a pricey purchase to my CFO (wife), there is definitely a huge psychological barrier at the $2000 price point.
Also, I've done the basic height/inseam fit calcs, and most of the basic online calculators indicate I need a 56cm bike, but I've also read here that the MB's fit/sizing can differ quite a bit from standard. Do you think a 53 would work for me? (I don't see any MB Ti sizes between 53 and 56).
TIA!


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## jackfish

If $600 a pound is worth it to you then I'd say yes. But, I would think their performance would be similar, except the SL is geared a little taller. The Motobecane titanium bikes do seem a little on the big side. My measurements suggested a 54cm bike, but the 53cm seems as big as many 54cm of other makes I looked at.


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## mattheis

Ive compared the geo of the 51cm Moto Ti to my 54cm Madone, pretty damn close, but going a size smaller.
*
eTopTube:*  Moto: 54.0 \ Madone: 54.3

*SeatTube:* Moto: 51.0 \ Madone: 50.6

*SeatTubeAngle:* Moto: 74.0 \ Madone: 73.7

*HeadTube:* Moto: 13.0 \ Madone: 15.0

*HeadTube Angle:* Moto: 73.0 \ Madone: 73.0

*ChainStay:* Moto: 40.5 \ Madone: 40.7

*WheelBase:* Moto: 97.5 \ Madone: 97.8 

*StandOver:* Moto: 29.9 \ Madone: 29.8

*BB Drop:* Moto: 70.0 \ Madone: 70.0


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## jackfish

If frame size is traditionally measured along the seat tube from the center of the bottom bracket to the center of the top tube, then it would seem that the Moto is closer than the Madone. However, I can't seem to find any correspondence between any manufacturer's frame sizes and this measurement.


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## usn.mustanger

Okay, please forgive my noobness, but I'm having trouble matching the fit results I got from the competitivecyclist.com fit calculator with the specs MB gives on their site. Here's the fit calc results:


Code:


Measurements
-------------------------------------------
Inseam:                33
Trunk:                 23.75
Forearm:               13.75
Arm:                   26.5
Thigh:                 23.5
Lower Leg:             22.75
Sternal Notch:         58.25
Total Body Height:     69.5

The Competitive Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c:   54.3 - 54.8
Seat tube range c-t:   56.0 - 56.5
Top tube length:       55.1 - 55.5
Stem Length:           11.2 - 11.8
BB-Saddle Position:    79.4 - 81.4
Saddle-Handlebar:      52.7 - 53.3
Saddle Setback:        3.6 - 4.0

The Eddy Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c:   55.5 - 56.0
Seat tube range c-t:   57.2 - 57.7
Top tube length:       55.1 - 55.5
Stem Length:           10.1 - 10.7
BB-Saddle Position:    78.6 - 80.6
Saddle-Handlebar:      53.5 - 54.1
Saddle Setback:        4.8 - 5.2

The French Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c:   57.2 - 57.7
Seat tube range c-t:   58.9 - 59.4
Top tube length:       56.3 - 56.7
Stem Length:           10.3 - 10.9
BB-Saddle Position:    76.9 - 78.9
Saddle-Handlebar:      55.2 - 55.8
Saddle Setback:        4.3 - 4.7

From the site's description of each fit, I'm leaning towards the Eddy fit. I'm not a geezer (no offense, geezers!), but I'm also not as young and flexible as I used to be, so I figure the Eddy fit is smack in the middle between built-for-speed and built-for-comfort. 

Now here are the specs MB provides from the LeChamp Ti:


Code:


Description	48cm	51cm	53cm	56cm	59cm	 
A	SEAT TUBE, CENTER TO TOP	48cm	51cm	53cm	56cm	59cm	 
C-2	EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE LENGTH	535.0	540.0	550.0	572.0	585.0	 
D	CHAIN STAY	405	405	405	405	405	 
E	BB DROP	68.0	70.0	70.0	70.0	70.0	 
F	FORK OFFSET	43.0	43.0	43.0	43.0	43.0	 
G	HEAD TUBE ANGLE	73.0	73.0	73.0	73.0	73.5	 
H	SEAT TUBE ANGLE	74.0	74.0	73.0	73.0	73.5	 
I	WHEEL BASE	970	975	985	995	1015	 
J	STAND OVER HEIGHT	28.7	29.9	30.6	31.7	33.0	 
K	BB HEIGHT	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	 
HEAD TUBE LENGTH (mm)	110	130	150	165	185

I'm assuming 'A' corresponds to "seat tube range c-t", but what's with the 3-digit #'s in MB's TT length? Is that mm? So it should directly correspond to "Top tube length" from the fit calculator, right? And what is "Seat tube range c-c"?

Given the fit-style I desire, my fit data, and the LeChamp Ti specs, can someone please help me decipher this to find the size of bike that's right for me?

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## mattheis

speak of the devil:

damn, cant post a link yet : (

2013 Inferno TI w/ New Red is out


----------



## usn.mustanger

Okay, I emailed BD to get some help on sizing. I'll probably order a bike (SL or non-SL) once I get the sizing right.

So to reframe and reask the other part of my question earlier, here's what I found different between the LeChamp SL Ti and non-SL LeChamp Ti:

*Wheels:* Aksium Race on *non-SL*, Kysrium Equipe on *SL*
*BB/Crank:* FSA Energy 50/34T / FSA External Bearing Bottom Bracket on *non-SL*, Ultegra 6700 53/39T or 52/39 (no choice) / integrated with Shimano BB6700 External Bearing Bottom Bracket on *SL*
*Seatpost/Stem/Handlebars: * Ritchey PRO stuff on *non-SL*, Ritchey WCS on *SL*

I'm guessing that total price-wise, these combined upgrades would be worth $300, but from the standpoint of a novice road-biker, would I really notice enough of a difference that would justify the extra dough? As a noob, I'm not so much concerned about the Ritchey stuff as I am about that 50/34 FSA Crank and BB vs. the 53/39 Shimano unit, as well as the upgrade in wheels. Is the tooth count up front a big concern for a noob? What about reliability of the FSA BB vs. the Shimano one?

Again, thanks in advance for help and advice!


----------



## equinoxx

Been riding mine a while now and I am noticing that my when I shift the rear cassette, it is sometimes very abrupt to the point where there is a loud twang throughout the frame. Admittedly, I am often shifting under load, but even if I ease up on the pedals a bit, same result. 

I have never owned a Ti bike before, but this noise never seemed to be present on my previous CF bike or my wife's aluminum bike. Just want to confirm whether other Moto Ti bikes act similarly or whether it is an issue with my particular setup.


----------



## froze

equinoxx said:


> Been riding mine a while now and I am noticing that my when I shift the rear cassette, it is sometimes very abrupt to the point where there is a loud twang throughout the frame. Admittedly, I am often shifting under load, but even if I ease up on the pedals a bit, same result.
> 
> I have never owned a Ti bike before, but this noise never seemed to be present on my previous CF bike or my wife's aluminum bike. Just want to confirm whether other Moto Ti bikes act similarly or whether it is an issue with my particular setup.


Is it making that noise going into any gear? Sounds like an adjustment problem, see this: http://www.wikihow.com/Adjust-a-Rear-Bicycle-Derailleur Or simply take it in to an LBS, they probably wouldn't charge much to adjust it.


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## mattheis

@equinoxx

Are you running shimano or sram?


----------



## equinoxx

mattheis said:


> @equinoxx
> 
> Are you running shimano or sram?


The bike originally came with Sram Rival. I switched my drivetrain over to Shimano Dura Ace 7900. Same issues with both drivetrains. I should say downshifting (to a larger rear cog) is perfectly smooth. It is just upshifting to smaller cog that causes the noise. Best way to describe it is the chain kind of snaps abruptly onto the cog I am shifting to when I change to a smaller rear cog. 

Aside from the actual moment of shifting, everything runs smoothly and quietly. No dropped chains, no rubbing while pedalling even when cross-chained. 

Could just be me being nit-picky or having unreasonable expectations about the rear shifting, but it makes me wonder when my wife's aluminum bike seems to shift more quietly (albeit slower) than my bike...


----------



## JasonB176

equinoxx said:


> The bike originally came with Sram Rival. I switched my drivetrain over to Shimano Dura Ace 7900. Same issues with both drivetrains. I should say downshifting (to a larger rear cog) is perfectly smooth. It is just upshifting to smaller cog that causes the noise. Best way to describe it is the chain kind of snaps abruptly onto the cog I am shifting to when I change to a smaller rear cog.
> 
> Aside from the actual moment of shifting, everything runs smoothly and quietly. No dropped chains, no rubbing while pedalling even when cross-chained.
> 
> Could just be me being nit-picky or having unreasonable expectations about the rear shifting, but it makes me wonder when my wife's aluminum bike seems to shift more quietly (albeit slower) than my bike...


My Team Ti came with Dura Ace 7900. I don't think I have the issue you do and generally I'm satisfied with the shifting but I have to say I still like the shifting of the Ultegra components on my 2002 Jamis better. They still work perfectly with no adjustments 10 years later. The shifting is crisper than the Dura Ace. I find it very strange that 10 year old Ultegra impresses me more than 2012 Dura Ace.


----------



## mattheis

I was just wondering, because I know when sram engages, it snaps quick and rough, where shimano kind of glides into gear. Ive got the 2013 ti inferno coming this week, so we'll see how the New Red is compared to old... cant wait.


----------



## paulfeng

usn.mustanger said:


> Okay, I emailed BD to get some help on sizing. I'll probably order a bike (SL or non-SL) once I get the sizing right.
> 
> So to reframe and reask the other part of my question earlier, here's what I found different between the LeChamp SL Ti and non-SL LeChamp Ti:
> 
> *Wheels:* Aksium Race on *non-SL*, Kysrium Equipe on *SL*
> *BB/Crank:* FSA Energy 50/34T / FSA External Bearing Bottom Bracket on *non-SL*, Ultegra 6700 53/39T or 52/39 (no choice) / integrated with Shimano BB6700 External Bearing Bottom Bracket on *SL*
> *Seatpost/Stem/Handlebars: * Ritchey PRO stuff on *non-SL*, Ritchey WCS on *SL*
> 
> I'm guessing that total price-wise, these combined upgrades would be worth $300, but from the standpoint of a novice road-biker, would I really notice enough of a difference that would justify the extra dough? As a noob, I'm not so much concerned about the Ritchey stuff as I am about that 50/34 FSA Crank and BB vs. the 53/39 Shimano unit, as well as the upgrade in wheels. Is the tooth count up front a big concern for a noob? What about reliability of the FSA BB vs. the Shimano one?
> 
> Again, thanks in advance for help and advice!


The SL (which I have) also has the Ultegra brakes, which I think are very good.

The Ultegra crank/chainrings are said to have a very stiff design, which might help front shifting under higher loads. As for the compact (50/34) vs standard (53/39) cranks, it is kinda silly that they use the same 11-28 cassette. Probably the compact's low 34-28 gear is lower than you will need (in Austin, according to your profile), and the standard's high 53-11 is higher than most anyone needs, save for those racing down mountain roads.

One last difference is that the SL has a carbon steerer tube , the consequences of which are (1) carbon is a bit lighter than aluminum (2) if you overtorque the bolts of the stem clamping the carbon steerer, you might crack it.

Good luck, it's a great bike!


----------



## paulfeng

I do not experience the issue of loud rear shifting on my LeChamp Ti SL.


----------



## usn.mustanger

Thanks for the feedback on the bike. I just pulled the trigger (_before_ you replied to me, paulfeng) on the non-SL LC Ti. I wanted to stick to my budget (under $2K), and being my first road bike ever, I figure I won't be overstressing any of the lower level items on the non-SL. And I can use the $$ I saved by getting the non-SL for accessories (shorts, jersey, tools, etc.).
Now I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas!


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I find it very strange that 10 year old Ultegra impresses me more than 2012 Dura Ace.


It's called marketing, they can't sell the electronic stuff if the mechanical stuff works too good.


----------



## JasonB176

usn.mustanger said:


> Thanks for the feedback on the bike. I just pulled the trigger (_before_ you replied to me, paulfeng) on the non-SL LC Ti. I wanted to stick to my budget (under $2K), and being my first road bike ever, I figure I won't be overstressing any of the lower level items on the non-SL. And I can use the $$ I saved by getting the non-SL for accessories (shorts, jersey, tools, etc.).
> Now I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas!


Congrats on pulling the trigger. I suspect you'll be glad you did. We'd love to see some photos once it arrives!


----------



## usn.mustanger

Update: After pulling the trigger, and then reading paulfeng's post, I started second guessing my decision to NOT get the SL...so I called BD, and they were able to upgrade me! Yeah, I went $100 over budget, but this is an investment, so I don't regret it. Ships out tomorrow!
And I'll certainly post some pics, Jason! Can't wait!


----------



## equinoxx

mattheis said:


> I was just wondering, because I know when sram engages, it snaps quick and rough, where shimano kind of glides into gear. Ive got the 2013 ti inferno coming this week, so we'll see how the New Red is compared to old... cant wait.


Thanks for your input. Maybe I will take a quick video of the rear derailleur in action this evening. Again, what I am seeing could be entirely normal, but I just want to know damn it


----------



## mattheis

@usn.mustanger

I think you made a good choice, Ive heard that the FSA BB is hit or miss, you're loosing the compact crankset, but getting one of the best complete groupsets out there. We'll compare some pics when mine comes in as well ; )


----------



## X-Nemesis

All they have is 53's in the SL for sale...would my measurements fit this size?

Inseam	33 in
Trunk	26 in
Forearm	13.5 in
Arm	26 in
Thigh	24.5 in
Lower Leg	22.5 in
Sternal Notch	58 in
Total Body Height	71 in


----------



## usn.mustanger

X-Nemesis said:


> All they have is 53's in the SL for sale...would my measurements fit this size?
> 
> Inseam	33 in
> Trunk	26 in
> Forearm	13.5 in
> Arm	26 in
> Thigh	24.5 in
> Lower Leg	22.5 in
> Sternal Notch	58 in
> Total Body Height	71 in


You're sorta close to my measurements (in some areas). I'd say send those measurements to BD and ask them to recommend a size. THat's what I did.


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> @usn.mustanger
> 
> I think you made a good choice, Ive heard that the FSA BB is hit or miss, you're loosing the compact crankset, but getting one of the best complete groupsets out there. We'll compare some pics when mine comes in as well ; )


I there was post about 6 months ago that a guy had a problem with his FSA BB on his MotoB Ti Road bike and was told to upgrade the BB to Chris King who makes one to work on that bike, and use Exxon Mobil's Polyrex EM grease on the BB. Maybe someone can confirm that.


----------



## equinoxx

equinoxx said:


> Thanks for your input. Maybe I will take a quick video of the rear derailleur in action this evening. Again, what I am seeing could be entirely normal, but I just want to know damn it



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjL_I7P7dfA&feature=player_detailpage

Crappy iphone recording. Run video at HD setting as the sound I am talking about is more clear. It is most pronounced starting around the 3rd gear change.


----------



## vautrain

equinoxx said:


> Ti frame noise - YouTube
> 
> Crappy iphone recording. Run video at HD setting as the sound I am talking about is more clear. It is most pronounced starting around the 3rd gear change.


Sounds about like mine. I think it's mostly the cassette resonating, though some of that may be transferred over to the frame, I'm not sure. In general, I think the unpainted Ti frame is somewhat "noisy", I can hear every slightest creak, and I hear it every time a cable housing hits the frame.


----------



## akeelor

Correct in all ways. The $300 in this case is well worth it on the front end. The SL is a great bike.


----------



## paulfeng

usn.mustanger said:


> Update: After pulling the trigger, and then reading paulfeng's post, I started second guessing my decision to NOT get the SL...so I called BD, and they were able to upgrade me! Yeah, I went $100 over budget, but this is an investment, so I don't regret it. Ships out tomorrow!
> And I'll certainly post some pics, Jason! Can't wait!


That's me, doing my part to drive the consumer spending-fueled part of our economy. Glad I could help lighten your wallet. Refer your wife to me if she raises an eyebrow.


----------



## paulfeng

vautrain said:


> Sounds about like mine. I think it's mostly the cassette resonating, though some of that may be transferred over to the frame, I'm not sure. In general, I think the unpainted Ti frame is somewhat "noisy", I can hear every slightest creak, and I hear it every time a cable housing hits the frame.


And I'll add that now that I've heard the recording, I don't think there's any big deal going on.

I will note also that when I first got my Ti, I really noticed the sound of the cables slapping the frame when going over bumpiness, enough so that I thought about putting rubber doughnuts on the cables. I don't notice it anymore, so either it has gone away, or I quickly learned to ignore it.


----------



## equinoxx

paulfeng said:


> And I'll add that now that I've heard the recording, I don't think there's any big deal going on.





vautrain said:


> Sounds about like mine. I think it's mostly the cassette resonating, though some of that may be transferred over to the frame, I'm not sure. In general, I think the unpainted Ti frame is somewhat "noisy", I can hear every slightest creak, and I hear it every time a cable housing hits the frame.


Thanks to you both! Sounds like nothing to worry about then. I'll keep riding


----------



## Refujiado

equinoxx said:


> The bike originally came with Sram Rival. I switched my drivetrain over to Shimano Dura Ace 7900. Same issues with both drivetrains. I should say downshifting (to a larger rear cog) is perfectly smooth. It is just upshifting to smaller cog that causes the noise. Best way to describe it is the chain kind of snaps abruptly onto the cog I am shifting to when I change to a smaller rear cog.
> 
> Aside from the actual moment of shifting, everything runs smoothly and quietly. No dropped chains, no rubbing while pedalling even when cross-chained.
> 
> Could just be me being nit-picky or having unreasonable expectations about the rear shifting, but it makes me wonder when my wife's aluminum bike seems to shift more quietly (albeit slower) than my bike...


You purchased the LeChamp Ti Heat ?? If so how were the rival components ? and why the switch to shimano 7900 ?

Im planing on purchasing a moto ti but not sure which yet trying to keep everything below $2000


----------



## equinoxx

Refujiado said:


> You purchased the LeChamp Ti Heat ?? If so how were the rival components ? and why the switch to shimano 7900 ?
> 
> Im planing on purchasing a moto ti but not sure which yet trying to keep everything below $2000


I liked the smoothness of the Shimano shifting a little better...and I got a smoking deal on the 7900 pieces  Otherwise, I would have just kept the rival gear.

The Rival group set is excellent bang for the buck in my opinion. I had a CF bike with SRAM Force previously and, to be honest, I did not really notice a difference in performance between the two group sets.


----------



## froze

usn.mustanger said:


> Update: After pulling the trigger, and then reading paulfeng's post, I started second guessing my decision to NOT get the SL...so I called BD, and they were able to upgrade me! Yeah, I went $100 over budget, but this is an investment, so I don't regret it. Ships out tomorrow!
> And I'll certainly post some pics, Jason! Can't wait!


So BD got you the LeChamp SL TI at the LeChamp TI or the TI Heat price?


----------



## paulfeng

froze said:


> So BD got you the LeChamp SL TI at the LeChamp TI or the TI Heat price?


That's not how it reads to me.


----------



## froze

paulfeng said:


> That's not how it reads to me.


 So what does he mean by BD being able to upgrade him? does it mean they simply switched him to a different model before they sent it out and he paid the difference in full?


----------



## paulfeng

froze said:


> So what does he mean by BD being able to upgrade him? does it mean they simply switched him to a different model before they sent it out and he paid the difference in full?


That's how I took it. Also, he mentioned going over budget.

Sorry for my earlier message being so brief. In a hurry and typing on iPad.


----------



## Refujiado

Now since you have have experience with the LeChamp, im trying to decide between the 48cm and the 51cm again this is my first road bike ever and im 5"4 with a 28 n 1/2 inseam. Which one would be more appropriate for me ?


----------



## usn.mustanger

froze said:


> So what does he mean by BD being able to upgrade him? does it mean they simply switched him to a different model before they sent it out and he paid the difference in full?


Yeah, sorry, I wasn't clear. I paid the $1799 when I placed the order online for the LC Ti, a few hours before close of business. I then called them a couple hours later, and since they hadn't shipped it yet (next day), they went ahead and upgraded my order to the SL by taking my credit card info over the phone and charging me the $300 diff. I'm pretty sure once it's in my hands, I'll be glad I did. Unfortunately, UPS shows it as being delivered on Tuesday, so I'll be waiting (very impatiently) until then.


----------



## usn.mustanger

Refujiado said:


> Now since you have have experience with the LeChamp, im trying to decide between the 48cm and the 51cm again this is my first road bike ever and im 5"4 with a 28 n 1/2 inseam. Which one would be more appropriate for me ?


Some basic advice here: Road Bikes and Mountain Bikes Sizing Tips
Then...follow the directions here: Contact Information
to e-mail them. They're pretty good about looking at your info and e-mailing you back a recommendation. I got my answer from them well inside of 24 hours.
If you want, you can give them even more detailed information by going here: Fit Calculator - Competitive Cyclist
and filling everything out. Then e-mail the results to them as above.


----------



## Refujiado

That helped tremendously thank you very much..


----------



## mattheis

Refujiado said:


> Now since you have have experience with the LeChamp, im trying to decide between the 48cm and the 51cm again this is my first road bike ever and im 5"4 with a 28 n 1/2 inseam. Which one would be more appropriate for me ?


Stop by a Trek shop and try out a Madone. A 52cm Madone is nearly the same geo as the Moto 48cm, and a 54cm Madone is right on with the 51cm Moto.

Im around 5-8, ride a 54cm Madone, so I ordered the 51cm Moto Ti, we'll see on monday if I chose correctly. Damn UPS no weekend deliveries...


----------



## JasonB176

mattheis said:


> Stop by a Trek shop and try out a Madone. A 52cm Madone is nearly the same geo as the Moto 48cm, and a 54cm Madone is right on with the 51cm Moto.
> 
> Im around 5-8, ride a 54cm Madone, so I ordered the 51cm Moto Ti, we'll see on monday if I chose correctly. Damn UPS no weekend deliveries...


I'm 5'8" and definitely made the right choice for me with the 53 Moto Ti. You might prefer a more aggressive riding position though and everyone's measurements are a little different. I hope the 51 works out for you.


----------



## usn.mustanger

JasonB176 said:


> I'm 5'8" and definitely made the right choice for me with the 53 Moto Ti. You might prefer a more aggressive riding position though and everyone's measurements are a little different. I hope the 51 works out for you.


Well, now that concerns me. I'm about 5'11", with 32.5" (barefoot) inseam, and after e-mailing BD all of the measurements and results from the competitivecyclist.com fit calculator, they recommended a 53 to me. 3" height seems like a pretty big difference to share the same size bike. Guess I'll find out this week when my bike comes!


----------



## mattheis

Hey JasonB176, do you have a pic of your ti? Curious to see your seat and bars setup. Also, did you stick with the 100mm stem? Thanks


----------



## froze

Too bad that Bikes Direct doesn't allow some very limited swapping of parts before shipping, especially wheels. I understand it's factory direct but it would seem like no big deal if someone wanted a LeChamp TI but wanted the same wheels that the Le Champion Team has, just pay an upgrade fee and be done with it.


----------



## JasonB176

usn.mustanger said:


> Well, now that concerns me. I'm about 5'11", with 32.5" (barefoot) inseam, and after e-mailing BD all of the measurements and results from the competitivecyclist.com fit calculator, they recommended a 53 to me. 3" height seems like a pretty big difference to share the same size bike. Guess I'll find out this week when my bike comes!


I believe the next increment is up to 56 which they might have felt was slightly large and thought to ere on slightly small.

I have a 53 for my Jamis and it's definitely a smaller feel that the 53 for the Motobecane and puts me in a more aggressive riding position. I like both but am enjoying the relaxed geometry of the 53 for my Motobecane where I'm not leaning forward as much.

I'm sure that with some adjusting of stem and seat height, your 53 will be fine for you. I'm looking forward to hearing your ride reports.


----------



## JasonB176

mattheis said:


> Hey JasonB176, do you have a pic of your ti? Curious to see your seat and bars setup. Also, did you stick with the 100mm stem? Thanks


I posted several pictures of it earlier in the thread but I just took another one so you can see how it currently looks:









That's a new rear tire as the one that came with it had a large hole ripped in the sidewall a few months ago. I was lucky to get home with it. I notice that the front one keeps losing air as did the original rear one. It appears that the bike came with lousy tubes.

I am using the stem that came with the bike though it's been flipped. I've ridden hundreds of miles with the seat at that height. I'm debating raising it slightly though.


----------



## flatsix911

JasonB176 said:


> I posted several pictures of it earlier in the thread but I just took another one so you can see how it currently looks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new rear tire as the one that came with it had a large hole ripped in the sidewall a few months ago. I was lucky to get home with it. I notice that the front one keeps losing air as did the original rear one. It appears that the bike came with lousy tubes.
> 
> I am using the stem that came with the bike though it's been flipped. I've ridden hundreds of miles with the seat at that height. I'm debating raising it slightly though.


Very nice Ti bike ... what is the weight without the pedals and seat bag? :thumbsup:


----------



## Refujiado

I ordered the 48cm one since someone from Bikes direct told me they also ride a Ti Moto frame and that they run a little bigger. He is 5'9 and rides a 51cm im sure some of it due to preference but went ahead with the smaller size. Anxious to get it but like mattheis said no shipping on weekends, hope to have it ready by next weekend.


----------



## dhelfer

*century team titanium or fantom cross titanium*

I am looking at both both bikes and would like some suggestions as to why I should pick one over the other. I noticed that the century is sold out, but there are fantoms available. Does that mean the century is better or just less stock available? I come from riding a flat bar mountain bike. My riding consist of 90% road, asphalt and sidewalks. Like the idea of drop bars. Not sure which bike would be more comfortable for my riding. My average length of rides is apx 20 miles. Thanks for any help.


----------



## froze

dhelfer said:


> I am looking at both both bikes and would like some suggestions as to why I should pick one over the other. I noticed that the century is sold out, but there are fantoms available. Does that mean the century is better or just less stock available? I come from riding a flat bar mountain bike. My riding consist of 90% road, asphalt and sidewalks. Like the idea of drop bars. Not sure which bike would be more comfortable for my riding. My average length of rides is apx 20 miles. Thanks for any help.



These bikes , if out of stock, will be back in stock once the production for the 2013 models start up, but they may cost a bit more mostly due to inflation.

The Century isn't better nor worse, just a different geometry and slightly fatter tires; it's design for a bit more comfort for those wanting to ride further distances due to it's more upright riding position, and it's built a bit more stout then the road series of TI bikes and has a more slopping top tube, so a person could optionally put panniers on the rear (thanks to the rear eyelets the road TI's don't have) for some touring and be able to mount and dismount a loaded bike better. It also makes a great commuting bike. I think the Century appeals to people who are not wanting a racing bike but want to ride long distances in more comfort.

The Cross bikes on the other hand have larger diameter frames designed for harsher riding conditions that cross racing will dish out. It also has a flat bottom side to the top tube for easier shouldering when carrying the bike is necessary in cross conditions. The Cross also can double as a touring bike (thanks to it's rear eyelets) or a commuter bike. Also the Cross adds hardware so that disk brakes can be installed on the front.

It want a lighter faster bike then pick one of the standard road TI bikes, but if you desire comfort and luggage carrying capacity over speed and lighter weight then choose the Century, if you plan on some off road stuff or rough trails then choose the Cross.

Both the Century and the Cross can only do moderate touring, meaning they can't do heavy touring because neither have eyelets on the forks for panniers. The Century and Cross does have a set of eyelets on the forks but their designed for a fender not a rack and panniers. But today more and more people are getting into lighter touring vs heavy expedition style of touring, so 30 or 40 pounds of gear in the rear and handlebar bag is the direction it seems to be going vs 70 to 80 pounds divided 60/40 on the rear and front. I'm doing weekend touring currently, and I'm learning as I go, it may be with my current system of just rear rack and panniers and a handlebar bag is all I will do when I eventually cross the USA. I already reduced my sleeping bag from a 4 lb down bag to a just a 8.5 oz(!) Sol Escape Bivvy bag and so far I like it and it was cheap. There are other weight reduction things I've been doing along the way but that should be saved for the touring forum.


----------



## dhelfer

*century team titanium or fantom cross titanium*

Thanks for the reply. Appreciate your thoughts. I am leaning towards the Century, based on I do not plan on any racing and I like the idea of more comfort on the Century. Are the components on the bikes equal or does one offer a better package?


----------



## dhelfer

I have read many of your post Froze. Very informative. Thanks again for your thoughts/opinions.


----------



## froze

dhelfer said:


> I have read many of your post Froze. Very informative. Thanks again for your thoughts/opinions.


No problem, sometimes I'm helpful and sometimes I'm not!! Just part of doing business here.

The difference between the Pro and the Team is nothing frame/fork wise. Going down the list the Team uses Ultegra front derailleur instead of 105 on the Pro...actually not a big deal since front derailleurs are pretty much bullet proof and the difference between the two you would never discover except for maybe 20 grams.

As would be expected the biggest difference is the wheels. The Team uses Mavic Askium hubs and rims vs Vuelta XRP Pro hubs and rims. There's about 300 grams total, or 150 grams per wheel weigh difference with the lighter wheels being the Mavic's; both use bladed spokes; both got similar reviews which were averaging 4 out of 5 stars...pretty darn good for lower costing wheels. Cost point wise their similarly priced. So what's the advantage? I can't find any advantage except weight! Maybe someone else with more intimate knowledge of these wheels will chime in.

Crank wise, the team uses a carbon fiber FSA SLK Megaexo crank vs FSA Energy Triple MegaExo crank. On appearance alone the SLK model on the Team is definitely a bit more beefier then the Energy. I think the beefier one would hold up better, but, and this just a personal opinion, I don't happen to like carbon fiber, and the use of it on cranks seems like they could just crack if the bike were to fall over with you on it. I'm on a fence on this one, the more expensive SLK found on the team did not get rave reviews, but the less expensive Energy got a star and a half better review? Again maybe someone with some intimate knowledge on these can add more.

Everything else having a slight difference is meaningless. Personally for the price difference of $200 I would go with the lower costing bike, even though $200 is not all that much, but you could use the $200 for accessories at your LBS or have your LBS assemble it if you're not real proficient at that sort of thing and still have $50 to $100 left over for stuff. The only real difference is the wheel sets being used, but 150 grms per wheel is nothing major by any means. 

Anyway that's just my opinion. If someone can validate why the extra $200 is worth it for slightly better wheels, 105 vs Ultegra derailleur, and the crank differences then let's hear what they have to say.


----------



## dhelfer

Great videos. I can understand why you are not a fan of carbon.


----------



## JasonB176

flatsix911 said:


> Very nice Ti bike ... what is the weight without the pedals and seat bag? :thumbsup:


Thanks. I've never weighed it. I think it might say on the Bikes Direct site though.


----------



## mattheis

Well, they sent the wrong bike damnit... what a waste of excitement. : ( 
They sent the 2012 Inferno instead of the the 2013 with the New Red, so it needs to be sent back, this is my 4th bike from them so hopefully they fix the error without trouble... still sux tho


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Well, they sent the wrong bike damnit... what a waste of excitement. : (
> They sent the 2012 Inferno instead of the the 2013 with the New Red, so it needs to be sent back, this is my 4th bike from them so hopefully they fix the error without trouble... still sux tho


Damn that's weird! Hopefully their paying the return postage. I also think you should contact the head of the Bikes Direct organization and express your unhappiness, and tell them you're writing all these events as they occur in a post on Roadbike Review and others are reading and watching to see what kind of company is Bikes Direct...maybe, just maybe they'll throw you a bone for being so understanding and not wanting a bad rap on forums like this and that bone would be posted here and make them look like they are going out of their way to make you happy. We'll see.


----------



## usn.mustanger

WOOT! UPS guy dropped off my LC SL Ti about 2 hours ago, I just assembled it! Man, this thing is a work of art! Now I'm gonna take it down to my LBS for a good inspection/tuning (including BB and headset grease checks, cables, etc.) and fitting. I feel like a kid on Christmas!


----------



## mattheis

d!ck.. just kidding. Get a picture up!
Sent mine back today, they replied to my email within 15 minutes, and had a new ups label ready for me this morning. They were very responsive and covered shipping without question so I can't complain.

At least it gave me a chance to measure the toptube and verify the length compared to my trek, they were exact.


----------



## froze

usn.mustanger said:


> WOOT! UPS guy dropped off my LC SL Ti about 2 hours ago, I just assembled it! Man, this thing is a work of art! Now I'm gonna take it down to my LBS for a good inspection/tuning (including BB and headset grease checks, cables, etc.) and fitting. I feel like a kid on Christmas!


Congrats man!!! Work of art? For so cheap? And they doomsayers say it can be done for less then 5K.


----------



## usn.mustanger

As requested. I forgot to remove the rear reflector (it's off now), and I'm going to have the shop take the "frisbee" off of the rear wheel. I can't ride it yet (I want to get it fitted and tuned first), but I do like to just sit and stare at it. My wife, on the other hand, doesn't seem to like me keeping it in the dining room...


----------



## mattheis

Looks good mustanger. Try to rotate the bars cw a bit so they are more level... as long as it is still comfortable, otherwise just ignore me. I hacked up you pic for example, hope u dont mind.


----------



## usn.mustanger

Will do, matthies, thanks for the advice. Nice Photoshop chops, btw.


----------



## froze

usn.mustanger said:


> As requested. I forgot to remove the rear reflector (it's off now), and I'm going to have the shop take the "frisbee" off of the rear wheel. I can't ride it yet (I want to get it fitted and tuned first), but I do like to just sit and stare at it. My wife, on the other hand, doesn't seem to like me keeping it in the dining room...


Dining room? Just tell your wife she should be glad she's not married to me, I keep all my bikes nice and warm in bed with me. Well, ok, fine, I don't really do that but if your wife thinks I do she'll get a good laugh out of it and let you keep in the dining room.

OR; you could make an offer with her. Tell her if she'll let you keep in the dining room you'll get a frame large enough to encompass the bike, then you'll hang the bike on the wall then hang the frame over the bike, then anyone coming to visit will think it's a piece of artwork. Then all will be good in Mustangerville.


----------



## RD48

Hi, I am considering one of these titanium bikes. I weigh in around 215 lb. I am wondering if the wheels that come with these bikes will hold up. I really don't have the money to spend on new wheels. Thanks.


----------



## froze

RD48 said:


> Hi, I am considering one of these titanium bikes. I weigh in around 215 lb. I am wondering if the wheels that come with these bikes will hold up. I really don't have the money to spend on new wheels. Thanks.


What are your goals in riding? Meaning, do you want to get your weight down to 160 range and do some racing? If so the lower costing Ti road bikes come with stouter wheels, once you get the weight off you can buy lighter wheels.

Or, maybe due to your height and/or bones size and/or muscle mass you just a big person and can't afford to lose weight; or you have a goal of doing some touring, or looking for a more comfortable ride, then look at the 2 (the Pro and the Team) Century TI bikes; these bikes come with stronger wheels then the road bikes.

Or if you want to do some off road riding not the real rough off roading, and still ride the pavement, then consider one of the 2 really stout TI Cross bikes, but the wheels are essentially the same as the Century models it's just that the frames are beefed up.


----------



## SlurpeeKing

I've been looking into a cross bike to ride the levys (I live off the everglades) which are compacted dirt and gravel. Would the cross be sufficient for that or should I go with mtb bike? 

The cross outlaw seems like a decent deal at $900


----------



## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> I've been looking into a cross bike to ride the levys (I live off the everglades) which are compacted dirt and gravel. Would the cross be sufficient for that or should I go with mtb bike?
> 
> The cross outlaw seems like a decent deal at $900


I've never seen those levys you speak of so can't answer the question directly in regards to the levys. So the question at you would be, have you ever seen cyclists riding the levy's? If so what kind of bikes were they on? Have you walked the levys? do they look really rough or just more like a dirt or gravel road? If their really rough with large rocks a mountain bike with a suspension system may be the way to go, but if they look like levys I've seen in other parts of the US and the world then you should be fine with a cross.

Fully suspended Mountain bikes typically will give you lower quality components for the same price as a cross because you have to pay for the suspension. Also if you get a fully suspended MTB make sure the suspension can lock out for pavement use otherwise you'll waste energy every time you turn the crank through the suspension. 

Otherwise the Outlaw looks like a decent bike, especially for the money. If you can wait and save another $700 you could get a Titanium cross bike, sure it's more expensive but it's a far tougher frame material then Aluminum and it will ride a bit smoother. Whichever bike you get and if you find it to be a bit rough riding for your taste you can get suspended seat posts, the Cane Creek Thud Buster LT is suppose to be the best one but it's ugly and expensive, but they do make better looking ones just not as effective, but they will take the bang of riding semi rough stuff off your butt.


----------



## flatsix911

SlurpeeKing said:


> I've been looking into a cross bike to ride the levys (I live off the everglades) which are compacted dirt and gravel.
> Would the cross be sufficient for that or should I go with mtb bike?
> 
> The cross outlaw seems like a decent deal at $900


The Cross Outlaw is a very nice ride ... designed for levys and offroad trails :thumbsup:
There are now 2 versions available: I would go for the 18 Speed and save $100

*Shimano 105/Tiagra, 20Spd + Disc 2013 Fantom Cross Outlaw $999*
Carbon Fork and Aluminum Frame & Avid BB5 Disc Brakes
Motobecane Cyclocross Bikes - Fantom Cross Outlaw










*Shimano 105/Tiagra, 18Spd + Disc 2011 Fantom Cross Outlaw $899 *
Carbon Fork and Aluminum Frame & Avid BB5 Disc Brakes
Motobecane Bikes - Fantom Cross Outlaw Track


----------



## RD48

Froze, thanks for the response. I am mainly looking to do training riding to improve my MTB endurance, as well as ride to work. I think I have settled on a full carbon, Wilier Izoard with Sram Rival/Force components. Plus, the shop is going to swap the wheels to Mavic Ksysiriums Equips, which they say should handle my weight.


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## SlurpeeKing

froze said:


> I've never seen those levys you speak of so can't answer the question directly in regards to the levys. So the question at you would be, have you ever seen cyclists riding the levy's? If so what kind of bikes were they on? Have you walked the levys? do they look really rough or just more like a dirt or gravel road? If their really rough with large rocks a mountain bike with a suspension system may be the way to go, but if they look like levys I've seen in other parts of the US and the world then you should be fine with a cross.
> 
> Fully suspended Mountain bikes typically will give you lower quality components for the same price as a cross because you have to pay for the suspension. Also if you get a fully suspended MTB make sure the suspension can lock out for pavement use otherwise you'll waste energy every time you turn the crank through the suspension.
> 
> Otherwise the Outlaw looks like a decent bike, especially for the money. If you can wait and save another $700 you could get a Titanium cross bike, sure it's more expensive but it's a far tougher frame material then Aluminum and it will ride a bit smoother. Whichever bike you get and if you find it to be a bit rough riding for your taste you can get suspended seat posts, the Cane Creek Thud Buster LT is suppose to be the best one but it's ugly and expensive, but they do make better looking ones just not as effective, but they will take the bang of riding semi rough stuff off your butt.


thanks for the detailed response. The levy's get ridden often, mostly by MTB'ers. It's a compound dirt trail that gets used by the water department. it's a nice 30 or so mile route that I want to start riding over the winter.


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## JasonB176

*Good news and not so great news.*

The good news is that my Moto Ti bike is allowing me to enjoy performance that fitness alone on my other bikes probably wouldn't. I averaged 20.57 on today's 33 mile route.

I also exceeded my previous high speed on a local hill, topping out at 46.02. Sorry for the indulgence but I did take a picture:









The bad news is that there was some definite shaking at that speed. It almost felt like the wheels were a bit loose. I checked when I got home and found both wheels to be tight and perfectly true. I've done that hill at 44 before and not noticed any. Could it be that just the 2 extra MPH could be the difference? Perhaps it was my position. I was in the drops, in a tuck but leaning way back in case I had to brake. There was also more wind than usual today. It's unnerving because I'm hoping to use this bike in the mountains of NH where I've done 55 on a descent before and I don't want to feel shaking. This is a brand new bike with good components so I don't understand why it did that.

I don't know what a LBS could find.


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## linded

First thing to check is that your headset is properly adjusted and not loose.


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## JasonB176

linded said:


> First thing to check is that your headset is properly adjusted and not loose.


Where would I check that? Those bolts in the picture?


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## JasonB176

CycoBob said:


> Jason, any chance one of the tubes could be twisted? (Since it's a new bike, I doubt they're patched already, so I won't ask that).
> 
> Other than that: Headset. Or, are the brakes dragging at all?
> 
> Little things get magnified at high speeds- so it might be tricky to track down....but it's gotta be something. I vote "headset".
> 
> Hey, worse comes to worse, I could always take the bike off your hands, and give you 50% of what ya paid for it!


I wouldn't have thought it could be the tubes but now that you mention it, the front one does always lose air and I have to pump it before every ride. It might be worthwhile for me to take it out and examine it. Thanks but no thanks for your offer! LOL


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## Poppadaddio

Deep Subject
I have 12,000 miles on my LeChampion Ti but no shaking ever, even on descents to 50mph.
Try:
Tires -- are there any bulges or odd spots? Are they well mounted/seated on the rims? They should be uniform for their whole circumference. Look carefully at the rubber mold mark near the rim.
It should be parallel to the edge of the rim. 
Wheels -- are they true? How about radially?
Hopefully you didn't install that great big white reflector on the spokes.
Good let us know how everything "shakes out."


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## froze

Try those other things the posters mentioned to, Check the tires for roundness as well, and check to make sure their seated properly, once you remove the tires to check the tubes you will have to reinstall the tires anyways. Is the shaking mostly felt in the bars or is the whole bike shaking? If mostly in the bars then the headset, front tire/tube, or a wheel problem could be the issue. I doubt the brakes are touching but it's a fast easy check to make sure.


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## linded

Jason,

To check for a loose headset, stand over the bike's top tube, grip the front brake lever tightly and try to rock the front wheel back and forth.You should feel no "play" or movement in the steering column. If you feel movement, then you will need to tighten the headset. Start that by loosening all 2 bolts that hold the stem to the steering tube. Then, using a 5mm hex wrench, turn the bolt on top of the headset cap clockwise until you feel no more play in the headset, as above, and also checking that the fork freely rotates right and left, thus avoiding overtightening the headset bearings. Finish by realigning the handlebars and retightening those 4 bolts that hold the stem to the steering tube. Hope this helps.


----------



## vautrain

Sounds like a tire/wheel balance issue to me, most likely, although I've read some criticism of Motobecane carbon forks, that they're not as stiff as they should be for riding downhill at high speeds. I'd lean toward the tire/wheel balance as a likely culprit, though.


----------



## drteming

Well, I've had my LeChamp Ti Apex for about one month and put about 250 miles on it. The bike rides like a dream and is very comfortable over the rough roads of rural North Carolina. One of the first thing I did was to remove the graphics on the bike--detailed in the decal removal thread (can't post links yet). I liked the look of the Motobecane graphics, but I like the look of bare titanium more. I got the Apex because the Rival model was sold out at the time I ordered, and also, I thought I may need the 32 cog (I'm old and haven't ridden seriously for over 20 years). However, around here, the hills aren't that bad, and I found myself never using the 28 and 32 cog. I got a Rival rear derailleur and a 12-25 1070 cassette from Ebay (cheap!) and switched out the parts. I also lowered the stem by about 1 inch. I think overall, the bike looks better now. The long cage on the Apex and the large cog look kind of weird on a road bike, but I kept the parts for trips to the western North Carolina mountains.

The first picture is before I switched out the rear drivetrain and with the original stem.


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## SlurpeeKing

looks really clean. I may remove all my decals after seeing how good it looks.


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## usn.mustanger

Not sure what, specifically, you're referring to, but I got Shimano 105 SPD-SL's at no extra charge, so I can't complain. And seats are so subjective to each individual's shape, preferences, and riding style that it seems like it would be nigh impossible to ship a bike with a saddle that pleased more than 10% of the customers. I don't get my bike from the shop until Wednesday, so I can't comment yet on how well the included Ritchey WCS saddle works for me.


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## froze

drteming said:


> Well, I've had my LeChamp Ti Apex for about one month and put about 250 miles on it. The bike rides like a dream and is very comfortable over the rough roads of rural North Carolina. One of the first thing I did was to remove the graphics on the bike--detailed in the decal removal thread (can't post links yet). I liked the look of the Motobecane graphics, but I like the look of bare titanium more. I got the Apex because the Rival model was sold out at the time I ordered, and also, I thought I may need the 32 cog (I'm old and haven't ridden seriously for over 20 years). However, around here, the hills aren't that bad, and I found myself never using the 28 and 32 cog. I got a Rival rear derailleur and a 12-25 1070 cassette from Ebay (cheap!) and switched out the parts. I also lowered the stem by about 1 inch. I think overall, the bike looks better now. The long cage on the Apex and the large cog look kind of weird on a road bike, but I kept the parts for trips to the western North Carolina mountains.
> 
> The first picture is before I switched out the rear drivetrain and with the original stem.


Naughty, naughty. You shouldn't have removed those decals. Now your frame's lifetime warranty is voided by Motobecane. See this site under the under the warranty details heading: Motobecane USA | Warranty


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## drteming

Clark123Le said:


> the pedals and the seat were also questioned by a few


The pedals that came with the bike were the old school cage pedals with toe clips. I slapped on a pair of Shimano SPD-R540's which I got for 35 bucks. Sure, they're heavier than Dura Aces, but I don't feel like paying almost 10 times the price to save 50 gm. The saddle is some generic "Velo" job, but it's actually very nice and fits me just fine.



froze said:


> Naughty, naughty. You shouldn't have removed those decals. Now your frame's lifetime warranty is voided by Motobecane.


I know that before I removed the graphics. However, I searched long and hard on the net and couldn't find any issues with these frames failing. Also, I tend to void warranties on stuff I get.


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## froze

drteming said:


> The pedals that came with the bike were the old school cage pedals with toe clips. I slapped on a pair of Shimano SPD-R540's which I got for 35 bucks. Sure, they're heavier than Dura Aces, but I don't feel like paying almost 10 times the price to save 50 gm. The saddle is some generic "Velo" job, but it's actually very nice and fits me just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that before I removed the graphics. However, I searched long and hard on the net and couldn't find any issues with these frames failing. Also, I tend to void warranties on stuff I get.


The bike came with cage pedals, toe clips and straps? How weird is that. I went and looked at every TI bike they sold and all the specs say the bikes come with clipless pedals. I'm the kind of person that would contact Bikes Direct and tell them they sent you old school pedals but the specs said they would be clipless and you only have clipless shoes. I bet they'll send you another set of pedals and probably not even want the clip on pedals back. 

You should find some Litespeed decals or some such real fancy brand, then people will think you got an expensive bike!


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## SlurpeeKing

the 100 year warranty is keeping me from removing my decals. I love the clean look, but with my luck I would strip it and a tube with crack and I would be SOL.


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## drteming

froze said:


> The bike came with cage pedals, toe clips and straps? How weird is that. I went and looked at every TI bike they sold and all the specs say the bikes come with clipless pedals. I'm the kind of person that would contact Bikes Direct and tell them they sent you old school pedals but the specs said they would be clipless and you only have clipless shoes. I bet they'll send you another set of pedals and probably not even want the clip on pedals back.


The Apex model does spec pedals and straps.




froze said:


> You should find some Litespeed decals or some such real fancy brand, then people will think you got an expensive bike!


I'm not covering up all that pretty bare titanium. I like my bike like I like women, nekked.


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## theo3000

drteming said:


> The Apex model does spec pedals and straps.
> 
> 
> ...


But, the description also says:

Features: 
+HIGH MODULUS 3K CARBON Fiber MONOCOQUE fork
+Race-Worthy Wheelset (superfast, race-ready wheels)
+Super-Light about 17.5 pounds* (mfg provided weight)
*+BONUS Road Clipless Pedals*

I bought the Apex model a few months ago. I was very disappointed in the pedals, but because they were "free", I didn't complain.


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## usn.mustanger

I'd complain. Like I said earlier, I got the Shimano 105 SPD-SL (PD-5700) pedals for free with my LC SL. I'm sure they'd at least comp you some clipless if you ask.


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## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> the 100 year warranty is keeping me from removing my decals. I love the clean look, but with my luck I would strip it and a tube with crack and I would be SOL.


And when you're 136 years old and that frame breaks you're going wish you had that warranty!! Well, all's not lost, you can buy a new ti frame and fork for $999, but in 100 years it will cost $36,000; so I would buy an extra frame now and save yourself $35,000.


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## froze

drteming said:


> I'm not covering up all that pretty bare titanium. I like my bike like I like women, nekked.


I like my women with just a few straps, that's why I like my pedals with straps.


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## froze

usn.mustanger said:


> I'd complain. Like I said earlier, I got the Shimano 105 SPD-SL (PD-5700) pedals for free with my LC SL. I'm sure they'd at least comp you some clipless if you ask.


And if you don't like the ones they send you, you can sell them or keep them for backup or another bike. In fact you could also sell the pedals with the straps if you can't use them. Make some money on this deal, new pedals could probably fetch about two thirds the retail cost on CL.


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## drteming

Naw, I'm not going to worry about it. Too much hassle for some crummy pedals. I'm perfectly happy with the inexpensive Shimanos.


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## mattheis

froze said:


> And when you're 136 years old and that frame breaks you're going wish you had that warranty!! Well, all's not lost, you can buy a new ti frame and fork for $999, but in 100 years it will cost $36,000; so I would buy an extra frame now and save yourself $35,000.


The frame and fork set is 999, you can request just the frame for 799 or 899... cant remember which.

Either way, it's a cheap replacement... take off the decals if you want it bare!


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## jtrops

*More Fit Questions*

I was on the Gunnar site and found their "Fit Tool." It is designed to let you match one of their frames with an existing bike that fits well. Anyway, I noticed that the Le Champion Ti seems to have a very similar geometry to the Roadie in a couple of sizes. Specifically the Roadie 56 seems much like the Le Champ 53, and the Roadie 58 is like the Le Champ 56. 

From everything I've read I should be looking at a 53, but I like the longer headtube on the 56. So, after looking at the Gunnar Fit tool I fouind that I should be able to make either frame work with a different stem, and spacer stack. 

I have two questions for the forum.

1. For those Le Champ Ti owners could you put your bike measurements into the Gunnar tool to see how close it gets to matching the bike as you have it set up? This will help me see what variance there is between the Gunnar Roadie and the Le Champ Ti as it relates to the tool.

2. The 56 is about 15mm's longer in the effective top tube than my current bike. I may have to run a 90mm stem in order to get the position right. How will the longer frame/shorter stem effect handling vs. a shorter frame with a longer stem? My instinct is that it won't have much effect, but that I will have a lighter front end that might feel squirly on fast descents.

I don't think I can post links yet, but if you do a google search for Gunnar fit tool it should be one of the first things to show up.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jerry


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## mattheis

Well, my replacement is out for delivery... Hope I can catch the UPS guy, and I hope it's the correct bike this time


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## SlurpeeKing

Every time I've voided a warranty in my life it came back around to bite me in the a$$, so I no longer void warranties. I'll keep the decals and save myself the $800 in case something does break.


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## froze

SlurpeeKing said:


> Every time I've voided a warranty in my life it came back around to bite me in the a$$, so I no longer void warranties. I'll keep the decals and save myself the $800 in case something does break.


I agree, I would rather have some sort of piece of mind. One of the reasons I didn't buy an Atlantis from Rivendell was because his warranty was weird, they have a no warranty frame warranty?! then a bunch of philosophical blah blah blah in the typical Grant tradition, meaning he determines if he wants to fix it for free...of course he won't because his escape clause is his no warranty frame warranty. So instead I got the Mercian because their warranty was a lot better and spelled out, but more importantly I got a lot more options on my bike that the Atlantis couldn't even touch. But that's side tracking, I too would have left the decals on for the sake of the warranty. 

100 year warranty doesn't mean much, if there is a manufacture defect it should show up in the first year, after that what can happen? But removing the decals prevented any possibility of getting the bike fixed if the frame broke due to a manufacture defect 30 or so days after purchase. Also in 100 years will Motobecane still be in business? even if so, they may no longer be making TI bikes, so they'll have to replace it with hardened liquid plasma frame! I have 84 Trek 660 I bought new and still have the receipt, they stopped making lugged steel frames, so being the second from the top of line racing bike offered back then, will they replace the frame under warranty with a second from the top of the line Trek? I doubt it! They'll probably replace it with some cheap ass made in China aluminum frame to which I'm suppose to be happy about!! I would just take the freaking frame and sell it!


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## mattheis

I was going to take mine off, but now the new inferno comes with the outlined decals. Besides the new red gruppo, that was a nice surprise over last years'...










Hopefully I can show a real photo tonight


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## froze

mattheis said:


> I was going to take mine off, but now the new inferno comes with the outlined decals. Besides the new red gruppo, that was a nice surprise over last years'...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully I can show a real photo tonight


I like those decals too, better then the other solid black ones, but I didn't even find those to ugly either.

What I find ugly is today's industrial looking bikes, paint, and black carbon components etc. Personally I don't really like the looks of any TI bike, but it is what it is, there isn't a whole lot of choices out there especially under $6,000. But having said that I found a lot of more expensive TI bikes like the Moots and others with their flat dull finishes that are far uglier then the Motobecane's!!! I kind of wish these TI manufactures offered the option of painting the frame, some do but again their ti frames are very expensive and so is their paint jobs.


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## SlurpeeKing

I like the outline decals posted above. I have the solid black which is too much imo. I agree with what you are saying about the industrial look. It's hard to add some style to metal with black graphics, one reason I liked the inferno with the red graphics was it offered a ton of options to match red tape, tires, saddle, etc to the decals. 

I will most likely remove the graphics at some point down the road, most likely when I'm ready to replace all my black products (bar tape, tires, etc) so I can add some color into it.


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## froze

SlurpeeKing;4087474
I will most likely remove the graphics at some point down the road said:


> Like I said earlier, you could find some decals from a different manufacture that you really like and put those on, then you would have expensive looking poser bike!!! Of course that could raise the theft potential up, but I think a TI bike period would do that. Decals like this for example: COLNAGO SUPER decal set of 15 and others on that site.


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## drteming

I like my black and titanium color scheme. Actually I thought about going the other way than froze suggested, ie, getting some Huffy or Murray decals. That would be funny.


----------



## mattheis

Original:










After:
Replaced the oem stem with a 6* Ritchey c260 that I had on my fixed gear. The stock 17* looked funny with the spacer stack and the rise was too much flipped. The photos make the bars and seat look a little askew, but everything is level. I will cut the steerer (which is carbon, where BD states that it is aluminum... little bonus) this weekend.





































The new Red gruppo is pretty bad ass. I thought the new design and graphics would be too flashy on a Ti frame, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be. The bike is a 51 and weighs in at 15.92lbs sans pedals–with having an alloy stem, bars, & seatpost, I dont think thats too bad.

You guys must have longer legs than me


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## paulfeng

Congrats on your new bike! I have a 51cm SL, which I upgraded to K-elite wheels. Your bike is a pound lighter, so I guess that's new Red vs. Ultegra.

It's been said many times before, but the outline Motobecane decal makes the bike look sooooo much classier than the solid black.


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## mattheis

Yeah, I was holding out for the new red version over last years... the outlined decals were a nice surprise.


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## usn.mustanger

Nice. How about a closeup of that rear derailleur? 
I'm about to go pick up my SL from the LBS. I dropped it off for a thorough inspection and initial tune up. So my first ever road bike ride will be today or tomorrow. Can't wait!


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## jmoy76

Yes, rear derailleur closeup pic please!

The specs on this bike say it has the mid cage deraillieur, and I even emailed BD and they confirmed this. But the both your pic and the website pic look like they have the short cage. Looking at the pics on the SRAM site, the teeth on the short cage pulley line up w/ the "A" on the derailleur arm, while the mid cage lines up w/ the "M".

I really like the look of the new crankset, and only $500 more to go from Force to Red + better wheels seems like a good deal. My reservations (which could be deal breakers) are:
- no compact double - swapping in an 11-32 cassette might mitigate this concern, but if it doesn't have the WiFli midcage RD, then I need that + the new cassette. Also, some say the jumps on the 11-32 cassette are too big. Need to try it for myself
- high maintenance for the Red BB


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Original:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After:
> Replaced the oem stem with a 6* Ritchey c260 that I had on my fixed gear. The stock 17* looked funny with the spacer stack and the rise was too much flipped. The photos make the bars and seat look a little askew, but everything is level. I will cut the steerer (which is carbon, where BD states that it is aluminum... little bonus) this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Red gruppo is pretty bad ass. I thought the new design and graphics would be too flashy on a Ti frame, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be. The bike is a 51 and weighs in at 15.92lbs sans pedals–with having an alloy stem, bars, & seatpost, I dont think thats too bad.
> 
> You guys must have longer legs than me


You probably answered this before so forgive me if ask again. But how tall are you and long is your inseam? Also did you find the bike to fit perfectly or a bit small or a bit large?


----------



## usn.mustanger

Dammit. Barely 6 miles into my very first ride and I already flatted the rear tire. Shoulda listened to the earlier posts in this thread warning of the cheap stock tubes. Unfortunately I brought neither a spare nor a patch kit as it was just gonna be a short 10 mile maiden voyage. 
Sigh... :-(


----------



## paulfeng

usn.mustanger said:


> Dammit. Barely 6 miles into my very first ride and I already flatted the rear tire. Shoulda listened to the earlier posts in this thread warning of the cheap stock tubes. Unfortunately I brought neither a spare nor a patch kit as it was just gonna be a short 10 mile maiden voyage.
> Sigh... :-(


Sorry about your bad luck, but... how did the bike feel?!

Plus: I do not share the negative assessment of the stock tubes. I went over 1600 miles before my first flat on the stock tires & tubes - and the roads I ride are not in particularly good condition (although I must say that some recent resurfacing projects here have made some of my roads gloriously smooth...)


----------



## mattheis

Hey jmoy76, It's definitely not the WiFLi version. I will double check and snap a pic when I get home.
Ive always had a compact set (105 & Ultegra), so Ill let you know how it goes.

Hey Froze, I guess I am closer to 5"7 than 5"8, my inseam is 30". I have a '09 54cm Madone which lines up nearly identical to the 51cm MotoTi. Here is a little comparison geo chart I made










It doesnt look like the other sizes are as comparable, the 53MotoTi has a ETT of 550mm and the 56Madone is 560mm.

If you think you are inbetween sizes, go test ride a new Madone, if the 54 fits well, go for the 51MotoTi


----------



## froze

usn.mustanger said:


> Dammit. Barely 6 miles into my very first ride and I already flatted the rear tire. Shoulda listened to the earlier posts in this thread warning of the cheap stock tubes. Unfortunately I brought neither a spare nor a patch kit as it was just gonna be a short 10 mile maiden voyage.
> Sigh... :-(


The tubes aren't the problem unless the tube split on it's own, or the valve malfunctioned. The tire is the first and most important line of defense, whatever it was that flatted the tube got past the tire and in those instances no tube would have stopped the flat. So instead of just throwing the tires and tubes out try getting a pair of tire liners. I think the Panaracer FlatAway are by far the best tire liner on the market, but Mr Tuffy liner or Slime liner will work too just not as good. Slime tubes, or putting Slime into the current tubes will do little, Slime won't seal up even the smallest of holes if the tire pressure exceeds 70psi.

Obviously the next time you ride you need to carry a spare tube AND a flat patch kit along with tire levers and a pump, never leave home without those minimum essentials.


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Hey jmoy76, It's definitely not the WiFLi version. I will double check and snap a pic when I get home.
> Ive always had a compact set (105 & Ultegra), so Ill let you know how it goes.
> 
> Hey Froze, I guess I am closer to 5"7 than 5"8, my inseam is 30". I have a '09 54cm Madone which lines up nearly identical to the 51cm MotoTi. Here is a little comparison geo chart I made
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like the other sizes are as comparable, the 53MotoTi has a ETT of 550mm and the 56Madone is 560mm.
> 
> If you think you are inbetween sizes, go test ride a new Madone, if the 54 fits well, go for the 51MotoTi


thanks for the info. I have a 34 inseam and I'm 6' foot even but my arms are short for my height, so I figured a 59 according to BD's bike fitting guideline, but I normally ride a 59, but also have bike ranging from 56 to 60 all steel lugged bikes, so they all have the standard road geometry that the Moto doesn't, so I may have to do the Madone thing as you suggested just to make sure; from what you're saying I may need a 56 in the Moto.


----------



## usn.mustanger

paulfeng said:


> Sorry about your bad luck, but... how did the bike feel?!


Okay, first the ride...
Now keep in mind that this is my first ever road bike ride, and my only point of reference is my aluminum mountain bike. But in my first (and only) 6 miles on my LC SL Ti, here are my observations.

--This might be a road bike vs. mtb thing, but the thing is twitchy! Every little move I made with my arms or upper body seemed to make the bike want to steer off the line. Steering my mtb, however, while not difficult, takes deliberate action. I was never scared, it just took me by surprise a couple of times. I'm sure I'll adjust and get used to road bike sensitivity.
--While I have no other road bike experience to compare it to, I will say that the ride, even on the rough and cracked streets of Newport, RI, felt extremely plush. I mean, I've commuted with fatty road tires on my mtb, and even with the greater tire volume on that, I still think I feel more vibration and harshness in my bum on the mtb than I did on my LC. So I think I'm really going to enjoy it. And I'll probably never buy an Aluminum road bike. Ever.
--I'm really not used to road bike ergonomics, specifically with respect to the hands. After just a few miles with my hands on the hoods, the meaty part of my palms (at the base of the thumb) started getting achy and sore. This might be normal for a beginning road biker, but I hadn't read about it yet, so I don't know if it's normal, or a case of poor ergonomics. I did get the bike fitted and set up at my LBS, but maybe flipping the stem isn't working for my hands. What exactly should my wrist, hand, and arm position be (straight, bent, etc.)?
--It shifts like a dream, even under moderate load. I run SRAM X9 RD and shifters on my mtb, and I thought that was a pretty decent setup, but this Ultegra gruppo makes my X9's feel like an old Yugo 4-speed manual--loud and clunky.



paulfeng said:


> Plus: I do not share the negative assessment of the stock tubes. I went over 1600 miles before my first flat on the stock tires & tubes - and the roads I ride are not in particularly good condition (although I must say that some recent resurfacing projects here have made some of my roads gloriously smooth...)





froze said:


> The tubes aren't the problem unless the tube split on it's own, or the valve malfunctioned. The tire is the first and most important line of defense, whatever it was that flatted the tube got past the tire and in those instances no tube would have stopped the flat. So instead of just throwing the tires and tubes out try getting a pair of tire liners. I think the Panaracer FlatAway are by far the best tire liner on the market, but Mr Tuffy liner or Slime liner will work too just not as good. Slime tubes, or putting Slime into the current tubes will do little, Slime won't seal up even the smallest of holes if the tire pressure exceeds 70psi.
> 
> Obviously the next time you ride you need to carry a spare tube AND a flat patch kit along with tire levers and a pump, never leave home without those minimum essentials.


Yes, I know better than to ride without that stuff--I never mtb without spare tube, patches, CO2, tools, etc. But I was so eager to get out on my new steed and start this new sport, and I figured that the first ride would be short enough, that I just didn't bother. Oh, well, learning lessons the hard way seems to be my forte.

As for the tube, I think I may have pinch flatted it. I believe my tire pressure may have been too low (about 45-50psi, IIRC), and I was riding a section of concrete road with perpendicular cracks and gaps traversing the road. I kept a good eye on my path for sharp objects, and a cursory inspection revealed no visible damage to the tire, so I don't think it's a puncture flat. I haven't removed the tire to inspect the tube yet, as I decided to go for a run instead when my ride got cut short, and then it got dark. I'll do that tomorrow.
In any case, given what paulfeng said about 1600 miles on stock tubes on rough roads, perhaps I just got a bad tube, or maybe my tire pressure was just way too low. Don't know. I do know I'll at least heed froze's advice on the flat prevention stuff.


----------



## mattheis

Eric55la said:


> The only real upgrade that some riders are suggesting is to find a set of lighter wheels,


Just depends on the level you choose, you get either equipe, or elite. If you don't think the elite are adaquit for your needs, buy the ultegra or force version and use the extra to upgrade wheels. 

The madone 5.2, cad10, or supersix don't even come with anything comparable to mavic equip so spend your money how u choose. I'll weigh the elites this weekend so u can compare to other brands.


----------



## paulfeng

usn.mustanger said:


> As for the tube, I think I may have pinch flatted it. I believe my tire pressure may have been too low (about 45-50psi, IIRC)


yep, almost certainly a pinch flat. You were running MTB pressures. Roughly, you should double that. Here are some weight and tire-width based recommendations:
Bicycle tire pressure calculator

You will also find the ride to be a bit less plush at the right pressure!


----------



## mattheis

Mustang- put up a pick of your new pro setup.. from your first pics, the first thing I noticed was how high your seat was set. 10+" post showing yells out either you're an ex tt racer or the frame is a size small. As for your hand numbness, it means that there is more preasure on your hands than ur ass. 

There are two things you can try. 
1. Angle the tip of your saddle up slightly. This will transfer some of your weight back, releaving the preasure on your wrists and hands.

2. Buy a stem extender to raise the bars higher, you already have the stem '+17*, but u may need them slightly higher, all depends on ur flexibility.

Tire pressure for 700c/23 is 100-120


----------



## mattheis

Paulfeng
Is this you? bonnie & jason » New bike: 2010 Motobecane Le Champ Titanium


----------



## paulfeng

mattheis said:


> Paulfeng
> Is this you? bonnie & jason » New bike: 2010 Motobecane Le Champ Titanium


No, I am not Jason.


----------



## bobmcee

*Got my 56 cm Ti Heat*

A week or so I posted a question about the Al SuperStrada Apex - and I ended up with the Ti Heat with Rival.

I am 6' with a 34in inseam (measured,not pant size). I picked up a 56 (I was considering the 58cm for the SuperStrada). 20+ years ago I rode a 58cm Trek 2100 (al form, al lugs, carbon main tubes). It felt a little big back then... Hoping the size info helps anyone considering a BD Le Champion Ti. I will post about my set up/sizing after my first ride tomorrow!

As, I just got the bike last night, and I've been wrenching on it a bit.
I put on some 25C Gatorskins, and new tubes. I wrestled a lot with installing the front brake into the fork (I posted on the wrenching forum) and did a little bit of cable tuning. I plan to ride it for a few weeks, then get a pro tune up at my LBS.

I am super happy so far. I did not get the Ritchey Wheelset upgrade, but looks like I got the 2013 WiFli, as it has 11-32 gearing on the cassette.

I'm 220 lbs, so the gearing will be welcome. The Gatorskin upgrade was to avoid flats, and with Ti + 25C - I am hoping for a nice ride. I don't mind the Askiums wheelset yet... as long as they are strong, I don't care much about the weight.

This forum has been great - thanks everyone!


----------



## froze

I agree about the tire pressure, I think you got a pinch flat now that you mentioned the psi in the tires.

Try using this tire pressure calculator, use only the middle calculator, use the weight of bike at riding weight, meaning including seat bag, full bottles etc., and use your total body weight including clothed ready for riding, enter the total of those two weights into the first box, then select your tire widths on the drop downs for both front and rear. This pressure calculator is based on a formula that's been around for at least 40 years and is very accurate.

See: Bicycle tire pressure calculator

By the way, Gatorskins are good but not great, and they overcharge for their tires. You can shop on-line bike stores and find big sales on tires, just read the reviews before you buy. I never pay more then $35 for a tire and I wait for closeouts. Conti's never go that deep on sale; and I've had Gatorskins before and found some $45 Kenda Konstrictors on sale for $15 couple of years ago that were actually better, I got far less flats and they have lasted now about 1,500 miles longer. And the last week of August is the best time for road tire closeout sales, sales like these three tires:

Hutchinson Atom Comp Road Tire - Road Bike Tires
Hutchinson Fusion 3 Special Edition Road Tire - Road Bike Tires
Vittoria Rubino Pro Slick Road Tire - Road Bike Tires

If for whatever reasons you're dead set on Conti's then get then here, American on-line stores cannot get Conti's cheap but the UK can; see: Buy Road Bikes & Parts at Ribble Cycles | UK Online Bike Shop


----------



## mattheis

Standard cage derailleur:


----------



## jmoy76

mattheis said:


> Hey jmoy76, It's definitely not the WiFLi version. I will double check and snap a pic when I get home.


Thanks for confirming! Odd that the specs are wrong and even an email to BD confirmed something wrong... I wonder if I ordered one, I could get them to send me the spec'd WiFli derailluer??



usn.mustanger said:


> --I'm really not used to road bike ergonomics, specifically with respect to the hands. After just a few miles with my hands on the hoods, the meaty part of my palms (at the base of the thumb) started getting achy and sore. This might be normal for a beginning road biker, but I hadn't read about it yet, so I don't know if it's normal, or a case of poor ergonomics. I did get the bike fitted and set up at my LBS, but maybe flipping the stem isn't working for my hands. What exactly should my wrist, hand, and arm position be (straight, bent, etc.)?


I'm pretty new to road biking myself. Just started Apr '11... doing my first century next weekend (Ride Around the Sound, charity ride for the American Lung Association)!

I had the same problem when I first started. The solution for me was to rotate my wrists inward slightly so that the pressure of the hoods was more at the center of my palms rather than the base of my thumbs. Also, switch your hand positions frequently.


----------



## jmoy76

Also, see Riding Tips - Mike's Bikes - Road and Mountain Bike Shop, components, parts, accessories, service and repair


----------



## usn.mustanger

mattheis said:


> Mustang- put up a pick of your new pro setup.. from your first pics, the first thing I noticed was how high your seat was set. 10+" post showing yells out either you're an ex tt racer or the frame is a size small. As for your hand numbness, it means that there is more preasure on your hands than ur ass.
> 
> There are two things you can try.
> 1. Angle the tip of your saddle up slightly. This will transfer some of your weight back, releaving the preasure on your wrists and hands.
> 
> 2. Buy a stem extender to raise the bars higher, you already have the stem '+17*, but u may need them slightly higher, all depends on ur flexibility.
> 
> Tire pressure for 700c/23 is 100-120


I'll get a pic up shortly. The initial pics I posted were of it freshly assembled but not fitted. The LBS spent about 30 minutes fitting me out to the bike, adjusting the saddle position, cleat position, bars, etc., so I'm fairly confident the fit is pretty good overall right now. The problem with my hands isn't numbness, just muscle soreness in the meaty part of my palm (base of thumb). I suspect it's more than likely from me not being used to this riding position and grip, although I'm sure there's probably room for optimizing the stem height/angle/etc. I'll work on that next. I am sincerely appreciative for your help and feedback, and I'm sure I'll be back here many times in the future as I continue learning the whole road biking thing. It's SOOOO much different than riding a mountain bike, but then I expected that. 



froze said:


> I agree about the tire pressure, I think you got a pinch flat now that you mentioned the psi in the tires.
> 
> Try using this tire pressure calculator, use only the middle calculator...


Thanks for the link. Yes, it was indeed a pinch flat, and I feel pretty foolish for not checking the tire pressure after getting it back from the shop. When I assembled it, I only pumped it to 60psi or so, having no clue what actual pressures road bikes take, and I mistakenly assumed that the shop would inflate them to the appropriate pressure during the initial tune up. My mistake. (Of course, if my dumb a$$ had looked at the tire sidewalls, I would've seen the min/max of 100/145psi. Derp.)
As for the tires, I think I'll stick with the Vittoria Rubino Pro's that came with it, as it's my nascent skills, not the tires, that are my limiting factor here. But thanks for the great info, I'll definitely tuck that away in my knowledge bank for the future! :thumbsup:



jmoy76 said:


> I'm pretty new to road biking myself. Just started Apr '11... doing my first century next weekend (Ride Around the Sound, charity ride for the American Lung Association)!
> 
> I had the same problem when I first started. The solution for me was to rotate my wrists inward slightly so that the pressure of the hoods was more at the center of my palms rather than the base of my thumbs. Also, switch your hand positions frequently.





jmoy76 said:


> Also, see Riding Tips - Mike's Bikes - Road and Mountain Bike Shop, components, parts, accessories, service and repair


Thanks, jmoy, I'll try your advice, and that found in that great link!


----------



## flatsix911

mattheis said:


> Original:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Red gruppo is pretty bad ass. I thought the new design and graphics would be too flashy on a Ti frame, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be. The bike is a 51 and weighs in at 15.92lbs sans pedals–with having an alloy stem, bars, & seatpost, I dont think thats too bad.


Very nice ride ... and super light at under 16 lbs without pedals :thumbsup:


----------



## froze

Great Bike, looks as nice as other TI bikes but for a lot less money.

Just a thought, or opinion, and this comes from the fact that I have a difficult time with the industrial looking bikes of today, and that in my eye looks like that big time. Have you thought of maybe red bar tape and a red saddle? To kind of add some small amount of splash of color that would pop a bit?


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## mattheis

I hear ya Froze, I had a couple subtle ideas. Ive had read tape on previous bikes in the past and never cared for the look, either it faded quickly to a pink or brown from wear. Here is something I was thinking:










On another note, just went for a 30mi ride this morning and the bike felt great. The Red drivetrain is smooth, and the shifting was snappy. Hit some decent hills, but Im in central Ohio... so I am mountain free. The gear ratios are more than adequate for my needs and not too worried about being stuck without a compact. If I know Im going to be on a major climbing ride, i will just take my trek instead.

I am a little disappointed that it came with the 1070/Force cassette instead of the 1090, it's listed on the site as 1070, so it was just my fault for not catching that detail. The 1070 is REALLY loud when coasting, not sure if the red cassettes are the same or not. So far that is my only complaint.


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## jtrops

I like it with the red accents. It's nice that the frame set can be dressed up so easily. Pow



mattheis said:


> I am a little disappointed that it came with the 1070/Force cassette instead of the 1090, it's listed on the site as 1070, so it was just my fault for not catching that detail. The 1070 is REALLY loud when coasting, not sure if the red cassettes are the same or not. So far that is my only complaint.


The red cassette is lighter, but I am not sure that it's much of an upgrade for normal riders. They are loud, and wear fast. My only experience is working on them for friends, but at least one of them is upgrading to a 1070.


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## usn.mustanger

mattheis said:


> I hear ya Froze, I had a couple subtle ideas. Ive had read tape on previous bikes in the past and never cared for the look, either it faded quickly to a pink or brown from wear. Here is something I was thinking:
> 
> <Nice photoshop job of beautiful bike>


Bro, I like your style. I was just wondering how I could add some subtle accents to make it "pop" a little more, and that image has inspired me. I love red, and the little subtle things you've got in mind seem to be just enough. Very nice.

And DAMN, I wish I had the "ghost lettering". My LC SL Ti has the black letters with white outline. Sigh...


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## usn.mustanger

On another note, I've properly inaugurated my baby. After properly inflating my tires (derp), I set out on my 10 mile loop to break 'er in. It was great. Obviously not as plush as the last trip with the grossly underinflated tires, but still not uncomfortable, even on the terrible streets of Newport, RI. Less soreness in my palms (thanks, jmoy76!), but I did have some tingling in my feet when the ride was over, only after dismounting. I suppose that's just more "growing pains". If it persists, I'll address it in it's own thread.
I think I'm gonna love this bike. Just don't tell my mountain bike or my wife, lest they get jealous and scandal ensues...

Edit:  Linky in case you're interested. Beautiful ride! (And I just noticed, the elevation profile is NOT accurate--there are many more elevation changes than reflected on that graph!)


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## mattheis

Here is a cool older SL, My older bike is a '10 5.2 which is all red and black so all my jerseys and helmets are too... but I really like the orange accents on this one:










Not a fan of the saddle or bottle cages though...


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## froze

Red cork tape does fade, it's the fastest fading color you can get, but usually by the time the tape fades it's time for new tape anyways. I like the red cable and cage idea too, but I, again it's just me, I would add the red bar tape and the red seat...or...you could do a black and red stripe on the taping thing by using two rolls and simply wind them on together alternating, and then use a saddle like you cropped on. Then there will be just enough black to blend with the hoods and enough red without it screaming at you. So it would look like this on the bars: http://www.google.com/imgres?start=...sp=20&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:228,i:161&tx=115&ty=36 Then do the other red stuff you cropped on. You can even find red treaded tires just like the orange picture shows, not sure if I would go that far or not, I would have to see it.


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## jtrops

Jason:

What is the BB-top of saddle distance? I need about 750mm's, and I like the general proportions of your setup. I don't know if I would want much more post sticking out of the frame than you have. 

I'm in between the 53 and the 56. Ideally I would have about a 56cm top tube, so I could really go with either frame.

Thanks for all of the posts you have made so far. It has been really helpful as I get closer to pulling the trigger


----------



## Bonn55ie

This will likely be my last bike purchase for a very long time


----------



## mattheis




----------



## usn.mustanger

Great pics. Where's that at?


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## mattheis

Petoskey michigan, spent the week camping.


----------



## equinoxx

my bike with some recent upgrades - rolf wheels, dura ace shifters/derilleurs. 16.12 lbs as pictured


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## mattheis

equinoxx ~ looks really good, what saddle?


----------



## usn.mustanger

Love them wheels, equinoxx, but that saddle hurts my butt just looking at it! What are you using this bike for?


----------



## equinoxx

usn.mustanger said:


> Love them wheels, equinoxx, but that saddle hurts my butt just looking at it! What are you using this bike for?


Thanks! I love the look paired spoke wheels like the Rolfs. The fact they are only 1350g helps too  The saddle is not so bad. See my comments below. I use the bike for short rides on the weekend, usually less than 30 miles.



mattheis said:


> equinoxx ~ looks really good, what saddle?


Generic ebay carbon saddle. They run about $65 or so on ebay. Super light at 100g. The seat is surprisingly comfy, though I think the one I got is just a little bit too narrow for me. As you can see, it has a bit of a s-curve to it like a Specialized Romin saddle so you can change positions as you are riding. I will probably be selling me soon to try and find something equivalent but wider. Let me know if you're interested


----------



## mattheis

equinoxx ~ let me know if you find anything close, I like the look too but Im closer to the 135mm-138 range


----------



## equinoxx

mattheis said:


> equinoxx ~ let me know if you find anything close, I like the look too but Im closer to the 135mm-138 range


The one I currently have is 138mm. Shoot me a PM if you are interested in it.


----------



## froze

Dorot55hy said:


> This will likely be my last bike purchase for a very long time and I want to take all the steps I can to ensure its success!


I tried to scan back to find your post but with so many pages I don't have the time. Assuming your talking about buying a Motobecain TI bike you can go to the reviews here on this site and read about those bikes, and go to the Forums main page and page down you get to Motobecane and read the stuff inside of there. Also you can read reviews from publications on the internet as well.

Everything I've read about those Motobecane Ti bikes have been very favorable, I've never found one hate or even a neutral report on those bikes. I think for the price you would have to pay twice as much to get something maybe 10% better.


----------



## JasonB176

I'm surprised that at least for the titanium bikes, BD is still showing 2012 models. I would have thought the new ones would be out by now. I wonder if anything is up.


----------



## mattheis

I was thinking the same thing. My Inferno is the only 2013 model listed. All the components are current (all Ritchey parts are the 2013 graphics.) I can maybe see price reasoning for the Team model if there was a huge price increase from 7900 to 9000? Otherwise not sure either


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I'm surprised that at least for the titanium bikes, BD is still showing 2012 models. I would have thought the new ones would be out by now. I wonder if anything is up.


In addition to what Matthis said, the economy is down and inflation is up. All my LBS's in town have quite a few of 2012 models left in stock at closeout prices that you would think would generate sales...but their not, so I'm sure this would effect a company as large as Bike Direct.

It appears that all the titanium SRAM equipped bikes are 2013 models, the Shimano ones are 2012; all the cross bikes are 2013; all the Century models are 2012. If you look on the size options a lot of the sizes in the 2012 models are gone so I'm sure their waiting for new 2013 stock to arrive.


----------



## fireMedic1343

froze said:


> In addition to what Matthis said, the economy is down and inflation is up. All my LBS's in town have quite a few of 2012 models left in stock at closeout prices that you would think would generate sales...but their not, so I'm sure this would effect a company as large as Bike Direct.
> 
> It appears that all the titanium SRAM equipped bikes are 2013 models, the Shimano ones are 2012; all the cross bikes are 2013; all the Century models are 2012. If you look on the size options a lot of the sizes in the 2012 models are gone so I'm sure their waiting for new 2013 stock to arrive.


Interesting, I'm hoping to pick something up, maybe I can find a deal. Alternatively, the LBS could be feeling the pain a little more with possible increases in the online sales/market share.


----------



## froze

fireMedic1343 said:


> Interesting, I'm hoping to pick something up, maybe I can find a deal. Alternatively, the LBS could be feeling the pain a little more with possible increases in the online sales/market share.


Not a whole lot of pain, internet sales only accounts for 3% of the sales nationwide, it's the big box stores that are growing in sales percentage and account for 79% of all bikes sold, and bikes stores account for 18% ...but this number is misleading because LBS's command 55% of the dollars spent which makes sense since the big box stores sell low end bikes; whereas internet commands only about 5% of the dollars. These figures have remained essentially unchanged for the last 11 years, so don't go putting blame where it doesn't belong. Sales have declined in 2011 by 6.6 million units from 2010, the numbers aren't in yet for 2012.


----------



## fireMedic1343

froze said:


> Not a whole lot of pain, internet sales only accounts for 3% of the sales nationwide, it's the big box stores that are growing in sales percentage and account for 79% of all bikes sold, and bikes stores account for 18% ...but this number is misleading because LBS's command 55% of the dollars spent which makes sense since the big box stores sell low end bikes; whereas internet commands only about 5% of the dollars. These figures have remained essentially unchanged for the last 11 years, so don't go putting blame where it doesn't belong. Sales have declined in 2011 by 6.6 million units from 2010, the numbers aren't in yet for 2012.




I like numbers, thanks for the post. I would be curious to know how the business models differ and what the cost and mark up differences are.


----------



## unclemat

Well, my new 2013 Le Champ TI Inferno is scheduled to show up on Friday! Can't wait. Will be quite an upgrade from my steel 2003 entry-level Fuji League...

Was thinking about a cross bike, a Fantom Ti Cross, but since I have a hybrid (a 2009 Gary Fisher Mendota) that covers rougher roads I decided it's time to upgrade the road bike. Plus there is no availability of Fantoms in my size.


----------



## vautrain

froze said:


> Not a whole lot of pain, internet sales only accounts for 3% of the sales nationwide, it's the big box stores that are growing in sales percentage and account for 79% of all bikes sold, and bikes stores account for 18% ...but this number is misleading because LBS's command 55% of the dollars spent which makes sense since the big box stores sell low end bikes; whereas internet commands only about 5% of the dollars. These figures have remained essentially unchanged for the last 11 years, so don't go putting blame where it doesn't belong. Sales have declined in 2011 by 6.6 million units from 2010, the numbers aren't in yet for 2012.


Is this for complete bikes, or the industry as a whole? Because I have to wonder if LBS's are feeling a lot of pain with regard to parts sales, it seems big boxes and online sales must be huge in that area. Complete bikes, probably not so much.


----------



## froze

Industry as a whole was my understanding


----------



## froze

I have never read a bad review of any Motobecane TI bike. I have a friend who got the Dura Ace Le Champion Team Ti model and he loves it, I did get to ride it and it seemed really nice, but I wasn't able to ride it over 20 miles so the experience while pleasant didn't last long enough to really know, but it's definitely on my next bike and last new bike list, though I won't be opting for the Le Champion Team I will either get the LeChamp SL with Ultegra or the Le Champion Inferno, I haven't decided. But that's hold since I got laid off.


----------



## Alfonsina

I am looking at the champ team ti but would love any input, I posted on the women's cycling but this area gets a bit more traffic. I have contacted BD but the reply is non committal at best. We have ordered several bikes from BD and have always been delighted by products and service but I am procrastinating on this item because it seems the 48 with the ETT of 53.5 could (??) just be too big. I do ride a kestrel evoke CF with 105s that is a 47 but it is on the small side and I don't especially feel it is a good reference. By small I feel I have no room to move my arse back or stretch out in front, I have not extras on it as it is comfy enough even for a century but I know for sure I didn't optimize fit on the purchase. I want an upgraded bike, I don't want a WSD bike, I would much prefer to buy from BD and I would far prefer to get Ti over CF but if I have to get CF with a great group but more flexible geometry, I would if cornered. 
So my comp cyclist fit is
gender f
inseam 32
trunk 21.5
forearm 12
arm 24
thigh 23
lower leg 21
sternal notch 53.5
total height 63
age 46
I don't feel especially petite.
I do a lot of climbing as I am on the Wastach, most local rides are 100 feet per mile so climbing is important. 
Thanks so much for any input, this paralysis of analysis is a PITA as I would like to get this as an xmas present, I can wait until spring but that would be tragic LOL.


----------



## pete2528ca

I haven't read the whole 400 posts, but I did this too. I was looking for a winter trainer. I have a COLNAGO C40 with a TT of 54.5 and a ST of 54. I opted for a large Wilier Montegrappa from Wiggle in large with a ST of 54 CT and TT of 55.5. Changed the stem to an 80mm and I am golden.


----------



## froze

Interesting Alfonsina. If I'm reading this correctly, I would have thought with a 32" inseam you would want a larger bike then a 48, probably closer to a 56 or a 53 at the smallest. I understand you may be saying you have short arms thus the problem with the reach? If that's correct then once you get the bike in a 56 you may have to get a new stem that has a far shorter reach and then adjust the stack for height. If you're not sure how to get that done by yourself you can always take it into your LBS and have a pro fit done.

Please post back if I haven't read your post correctly and clarify.


----------



## paulfeng

froze said:


> Interesting Alfonsina. If I'm reading this correctly, I would have thought with a 32" inseam you would want a larger bike then a 48, probably closer to a 56 or a 53 at the smallest. I understand you may be saying you have short arms thus the problem with the reach? If that's correct then once you get the bike in a 56 you may have to get a new stem that has a far shorter reach and then adjust the stack for height. If you're not sure how to get that done by yourself you can always take it into your LBS and have a pro fit done.
> 
> Please post back if I haven't read your post correctly and clarify.


I really disagree with the speculation that a 56 or 53 might be right for Alfonsina.

I have an approximately 32 inch inseam (no shoes, floor to crotch), and am 5' 7". I ride a 51cm LeChamp Ti and it fits me great, but I would not want a longer top tube.

Given that Alfonsina is about four inches shorter than I am, but apparently with similarly long legs, it would seem that her upper body is shorter than mine. Now the effective top tube of the 48cm is 535mm, which is only 5mm shorter than the 540mm of the 51cm. BUT - I do not know what length stem the 48cm comes with. The 51cm comes with a 100mm stem, but I suspect that the 48cm may come with a 90mm stem (email BD and ask them this, Alfonsina), for a net shorter reach (not sure if "reach" is technically the right term) of 15mm. That may be enough, or Alfonsina may want a shorter stem yet.

As for seat tube height, I think Alfonsina would be fine with the 48cm; she will just be showing about 3cm more seat post than I do with my 51cm. (I still have plenty of seat post in my seat tube, so seat post length shouldn't be a problem.)


----------



## froze

paulfeng said:


> I really disagree with the speculation that a 56 or 53 might be right for Alfonsina.
> 
> I have an approximately 32 inch inseam (no shoes, floor to crotch), and am 5' 7". I ride a 51cm LeChamp Ti and it fits me great, but I would not want a longer top tube.
> 
> Given that Alfonsina is about four inches shorter than I am, but apparently with similarly long legs, it would seem that her upper body is shorter than mine. Now the effective top tube of the 48cm is 535mm, which is only 5mm shorter than the 540mm of the 51cm. BUT - I do not know what length stem the 48cm comes with. The 51cm comes with a 100mm stem, but I suspect that the 48cm may come with a 90mm stem (email BD and ask them this, Alfonsina), for a net shorter reach (not sure if "reach" is technically the right term) of 15mm. That may be enough, or Alfonsina may want a shorter stem yet.
> 
> As for seat tube height, I think Alfonsina would be fine with the 48cm; she will just be showing about 3cm more seat post than I do with my 51cm. (I still have plenty of seat post in my seat tube, so seat post length shouldn't be a problem.)


I'm glad you answered because you own one of those bikes she's looking at. I took a look at the sizing page for the TI road bikes and it appeared that a larger bike would be better...obviously that mislead what I was thinking.


----------



## mattheis

I am 5-71/2, 30" inseam bare foot, and I ride a 51. I would not want any larger. As I have said before, Alfonsina, if you missed it... the 51 Moto ti is nearly identical to a 54cm Trek Madone in every measurement, angle, and degree. I have both, so I can verify, Ive hand measured both. Go to a shop and ride a mens 54cm Madone and see how it feels! 

You have a taller inseam at 32" for your height, where Im a bit more "torso." This means your upper body is shorter than mine, and I feel I have a pretty aggressive stretch when Im riding my 51 moto ti, and I put a 90mm 6* stem on it to replace the 100mm -17* it came with. The listed "frame sizes" are deceiving, the top tube length is your biggest concern, find something with a similar tt length to test out. 

Where are u from, you can test mine out if you want, just give a little notice


----------



## Dresden

Alfonsina said:


> I am looking at the champ team ti but would love any input, I posted on the women's cycling but this area gets a bit more traffic. I have contacted BD but the reply is non committal at best. We have ordered several bikes from BD and have always been delighted by products and service but I am procrastinating on this item because it seems the 48 with the ETT of 53.5 could (??) just be too big. I do ride a kestrel evoke CF with 105s that is a 47 but it is on the small side and I don't especially feel it is a good reference. By small I feel I have no room to move my arse back or stretch out in front, I have not extras on it as it is comfy enough even for a century but I know for sure I didn't optimize fit on the purchase. I want an upgraded bike, I don't want a WSD bike, I would much prefer to buy from BD and I would far prefer to get Ti over CF but if I have to get CF with a great group but more flexible geometry, I would if cornered.
> So my comp cyclist fit is
> gender f
> inseam 32
> trunk 21.5
> forearm 12
> arm 24
> thigh 23
> lower leg 21
> sternal notch 53.5
> total height 63
> age 46
> I don't feel especially petite.
> I do a lot of climbing as I am on the Wastach, most local rides are 100 feet per mile so climbing is important.
> Thanks so much for any input, this paralysis of analysis is a PITA as I would like to get this as an xmas present, I can wait until spring but that would be tragic LOL.


I think you'd probably be okay with a 48cm Le Champ Ti. I'm 5'7" and ride a 53cm Le Champ Ti with a 90mm stem(I wanted the taller head tube of the 53 but a 51 would have worked fine for me as well.) Most people who adhere to current bike sizing fashion would probably say I'm on a bike too big for me, but I've been riding for over 20 years and know the type of fit I like.

https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/kestrel/images/evoke_geo.jpeg
Motobecane USA | Road Titanium Bicycles | Track Bicycles | Cross Bicycles

Looking at the geometry specs of the Evoke and the Le Champ Ti, I see that the 47cm Evoke has a seat tube angle of 75.5 degrees. That's pretty steep compared to the 74 degree angle of the 48cm Le Champ Ti which means that you shouldn't need to move your saddle as far back on the Le Champ Ti to put it in the same position relative to the bottom bracket as where it is with the Evoke. That should mitigate some of the ETT difference you're worried about. The head tube angle is a bit steeper on the Le Champ Ti which will cut into the reach benefit the slacker seat tube of the Le Champ will provide you, but just how much of a factor that would be depends on how much spacer stack you're using. This isn't exactly the most accurate way to put it and involves a bit of guess work, but compared to the 47cm Evoke, think of the 48 Le Champ Ti as a bike with a 52.5 cm effective top tube instead of the 53.5 ETT listed in the specs. Don't know if that's enough difference to ease your mind about a Le Champ Ti purchase, but since you say you're feeling cramped on the Evoke, I'm thinking you'd probably be fine with it.


----------



## Alfonsina

Thanks for all input, and yes, my seat is as far back as possible at present on the 47 Kestrel. I tried looking at stem length on the champ ti and it is something I could switch out (well, the DH could switch out anyway). I might see if an LBS has a madone to check out. And I do think my torso is short as my legs don't seem to be for my height. But I don't have short arms (I compared them to my shorter friends who are on WSDs and they have much shorter arms than me). 
Thanks for your help!!


----------



## Dresden

Just one more thing to add about the geometry info that I based my advice on in my previous post. The Evoke geometry chart in the link is for the Evoke that bikesdirect currently sells. It dawned on me that the Evoke's geo might have changed over the years. The 2007, 2008, and 2009 Evoke have the same geo as the bikesdirect chart. Earlier than that, I don't know about.


----------



## Dresden

Les655ie said:


> I assume the DoubleTap system is self-explanatory even if it takes some time to get used


Yep, it's just like it sounds. Doesn't take long at all to adjust to it. Some people prefer it and some don't. I happen to like it.


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> I am 5-71/2, 30" inseam bare foot, and I ride a 51. I would not want any larger. As I have said before, Alfonsina, if you missed it... the 51 Moto ti is nearly identical to a 54cm Trek Madone in every measurement, angle, and degree. I have both, so I can verify, Ive hand measured both. Go to a shop and ride a mens 54cm Madone and see how it feels!
> 
> You have a taller inseam at 32" for your height, where Im a bit more "torso." This means your upper body is shorter than mine, and I feel I have a pretty aggressive stretch when Im riding my 51 moto ti, and I put a 90mm 6* stem on it to replace the 100mm -17* it came with. The listed "frame sizes" are deceiving, the top tube length is your biggest concern, find something with a similar tt length to test out.
> 
> Where are u from, you can test mine out if you want, just give a little notice


Since you own a Moto TI I thought I would be best served getting 59 because my inseam is 34", I have steel bikes ranging from 57 to 59 but it sounds like from your information I may be better off with either a 56 instead of the 59 in the Motobecane sizes, am I correct in assuming that?


----------



## Alfonsina

Yes, my evoke is an 09 so the chart should be good. I appreciate that though. I wonder if kestrel will make any Ti bikes.


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## Dresden

Alfonsina said:


> I wonder if kestrel will make any Ti bikes.


Kestrel gained its fame by making carbon bikes. I might be mistaken, but I don't think Kestrel has ever made a bike from any material other than carbon. Kestrel was bought out a number of years ago by the same company that owns Fuji, so who knows if there's still the same inclination for Kestrel to specialize in carbon, but I wouldn't expect to see a titanium bike from Kestrel.


----------



## mattheis

froze~ just a quick look:

trek madone 5.2 (58cm) ETT=574mm
motobecane Ti (56cm) ETT=572mm

trek madone 5.2 (58cm) ETT=586mm
motobecane Ti (59cm) ETT=585.0

Looking at just the Effective top tube lengths, the sizes are very comparable, and you can tell that BD looked/copied trek geo charts while designing the LeChamp Ti frames. Both the trek and moto are compact frames, meaning the top tube height reduces closer to the saddle, this just gives the industry a wider range of riders to be able to fit the bike. I wouldnt focus that much on stand over heights... with a 34" inseam, you can easily clear both. Look at the 64cm madone, it has a 33.5" standover, but has a 610mm ETT which would probably be too long for you.

Good luck. Hope this helps


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> froze~ just a quick look:
> 
> trek madone 5.2 (58cm) ETT=574mm
> motobecane Ti (56cm) ETT=572mm
> 
> trek madone 5.2 (58cm) ETT=586mm
> motobecane Ti (59cm) ETT=585.0
> 
> Looking at just the Effective top tube lengths, the sizes are very comparable, and you can tell that BD looked/copied trek geo charts while designing the LeChamp Ti frames. Both the trek and moto are compact frames, meaning the top tube height reduces closer to the saddle, this just gives the industry a wider range of riders to be able to fit the bike. I wouldnt focus that much on stand over heights... with a 34" inseam, you can easily clear both. Look at the 64cm madone, it has a 33.5" standover, but has a 610mm ETT which would probably be too long for you.
> 
> Good luck. Hope this helps


Great, thanks for the help, I appreciate it. I have to measure my ETT on my Mercian since it was custom built for me but I can't recall the measurement. This TI bike is a future thing I'm looking into when I get a job again, I had plans to get one in July but instead got laid off in June! So it's on hold.


----------



## mattheis

Test riding bikes is fun and free, just like cars  Trek just introduced their new 2013 bikes, so just make sure their geo is correct on their website. Test ride what your local shop has, whether a 2.1 or a 5.2. take a tape measure with you... take a ride around the block, out of sight, take your own measurements of the standover, tt, ett, so you know for sure.


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Test riding bikes is fun and free, just like cars  Trek just introduced their new 2013 bikes, so just make sure their geo is correct on their website. Test ride what your local shop has, whether a 2.1 or a 5.2. take a tape measure with you... take a ride around the block, out of sight, take your own measurements of the standover, tt, ett, so you know for sure.


I was planning on test riding but not the measuring thing, but since you mentioned I will do that when the time comes. Thanks again.


----------



## unclemat

unclemat said:


> Well, my new 2013 Le Champ TI Inferno is scheduled to show up on Friday! Can't wait. Will be quite an upgrade from my steel 2003 entry-level Fuji League...
> 
> Was thinking about a cross bike, a Fantom Ti Cross, but since I have a hybrid (a 2009 Gary Fisher Mendota) that covers rougher roads I decided it's time to upgrade the road bike. Plus there is no availability of Fantoms in my size.


Got the bike today and assembled it. Looks sharp. Came with carbon steerer like in case of another member - the specs say the steerer is alu on Inferno. 

Got 56cm size. Per my scale the weight without pedals and reflectors is about 7.4-7.5 kg (16.3-16.5 lbs.) so slightly above the claimed weight of 15.9-16.2 lbs. but then my scale my not be that accurate. Still feathery light for me! Can't wait to ride it.


----------



## froze

unclemat said:


> Got 56cm size. Per my scale the weight without pedals and reflectors is about 7.4-7.5 kg (16.3-16.5 lbs.) so slightly above the claimed weight of 15.9-16.2 lbs. but then my scale my not be that accurate. Still feathery light for me! Can't wait to ride it.


Congrats on your new bike, let us know how you like it. Make sure that every link in the chain is free moving (some forum member here chain bound and bent the rear derailleur), make sure the high and low adjustment is properly adjusted to make sure the chain won't drop between the gears and the spokes, make sure the wheels are all properly tensioned. I know the factory is suppose to do this but there have been incidences of mechanical malfunctions causing crashes and injures for bike even out of LBS's because they didn't check closely.


----------



## mattheis

My 2013 Inferno 51cm weighted 15.9lbs out of the box, without pedals. Get some pictures up!


----------



## flatsix911

mattheis said:


> My 2013 Inferno 51cm weighted 15.9lbs out of the box, without pedals. Get some pictures up!


Under 16 lbs ... well done :thumbsup:


----------



## drteming

*The song of the titanium*

3 months and 600 miles (not too much mileage, but I'm a runner with a cycling problem) with the Motobacane, I noticed a really neat phenomenon. On roads that are not too smooth and not too rough, I can hear a distinct metallic hum coming from the frame. I keep my tires at 110 PSI, so I assume that the frame is amplifying the road noise transmitted through the tires. I never noticed this type of noise back in the 80's and early 90's on my old steel BCA and Specialized, and I have ridden my buddies' carbon and aluminum frames and didn't notice this type of sound. It's kind of soothing and hypnotic.


----------



## froze

drteming said:


> It's kind of soothing and hypnotic.


HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Odd, I rode my friends Motobecane this summer and didn't notice that, I did notice the ride seemed a bit smoother then my steel bikes and took out some of the road buzz that I had in a aluminum bike.


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## SlurpeeKing

I have no humming/buzz.


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## mattheis

Me neither... sounds like something might be loose, headset not torked down, wheels/spokes/hub, bottom bracket...


----------



## drteming

Naw, nothing loose. I've done complete cleaning and maintenance a couple of times since I got the bike. It's only on roads of certain roughness, and the noise disappears as soon as I ride on the lane marker and comes back when I get off the painted line.


----------



## ramkitty

I bought a LeChamp Ti Inferno in spring and just moved to winter trainer rides. I put 1700 km on the bike and one flat at around 1000 km. Mechanically I have had few issues most being slight miss adjustments as I learn the mechanics of the bike. I had issues with the seat post but had it generously greased at a LBS. I believe the clamp bolt is aluminum and it stretches under tension thankfully the seatpost is graduated so you can keep an eye on any shift down. The only other issue I have had was this week doing a max power test on the trainer where I was putting out 900+w and the chain flew off the big ring not sure if it is flex, trainer rigidity or maladjustment but I will need to look into that. It may be flex or it may be my ring is bent a bit as it looks like the crank wobbles a little bit as I pedal.


----------



## froze

ramkitty said:


> The only other issue I have had was this week doing a max power test on the trainer where I was putting out 900+w and the chain flew off the big ring not sure if it is flex, trainer rigidity or maladjustment but I will need to look into that. It may be flex or it may be my ring is bent a bit as it looks like the crank wobbles a little bit as I pedal.


900 watts? That's pro level wattage, are you a pro? See this chart: http://www.2peak.com/tools/alpe/1.php And this: http://roadmagazine.net/road_home/featurepdfs/08_Power_October.pdf One guy there peaked at 1391 watts but the others peaked out at 900 to 1000.

Anyway you were cranking it hard. There was a guy here that bought the same bike as you did and had some sort of issue with the BB which I can't recall what that was, but I do remember he put a Chris King BB in instead and his problems went away. He also used Exxon Mobil's Polyrex EM grease on it if that matters.


----------



## ramkitty

Not pro just have always had naturally strong legs, endurance is what kills them. 900 is what it read at my peak i sustained 723 for 5 seconds, 705 for 10 seconds and 623 for 30 seconds based on my kurt reading close to actual power and that is with the chain flying off twice, cutting back to get it back on. I did the track a few times this year and I liked the flying 200m sprint as I could go all out for about as long as I can last. I also got clocked by a speed sign going 97kmph down a 6-8% hill in top gear pedaling like mad.

My ftp is only 227 again according to the virtual power.


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## homebrewevolver

just got a moto ti 2013 with RED!

I will update everyone on how it feels. Should get here tonight.


----------



## mattheis

Mine has been great thus far, Im glad I waited for the New Red version. 



homebrewevolver said:


> just got a moto ti 2013 with RED!
> 
> I will update everyone on how it feels. Should get here tonight.


----------



## homebrewevolver

New Red Moto Ti 2013

6'2'' 35.75 insteam.

I got the 59cm and I am happy with the choice. The thing fits absolutely perfect.

Here is my experience:
>I get home from work and wife says UPS guy says, "this is way to light to be a bike"
>Open box, the thing is a work of art.
>beautiful welds
>DAT TUBING, I was expecting it to be round, I was happy to see it was a pear oblong shape, and larger bottom tube that leads to more stability, and stiffness.
>Light as ****, for shits and gigs I took a picture of myself holding the bike out with my arm fully extended.
>Start putting thing together, remove dork disk,reflectors, make sure everything is tight, ect
>Attach bike to my trainer, adjust derailleurs, B limit needed dropped, high and low were fine, mid range barrel adjustment needed
>Front Derailleur, Remounted, limits reset can cover full range in both chainrings, shifts instantly, when they say zero loss they freaking mean it, im speechless.
>wheels already true, Mavic Kysirium elites. So stiff. So light
>as I am spinning the pedals I let go and I notice something I have never seen before. Everything is so smooth and perfect that the momentum of the wheel turning was enough to push the cassette, and actually turn the cranks. Even If I stopped the cranks and let the hub engage, they cranks would start spinning again when I let go. This gyroscopic effect astounded me. Once again, words can not describe how I felt. The bike is LITERALLY the closest to propelling itself without actually propelling itself.
>Order included free clipless pedals. I was happy to see that they were a name brand. I assumed they would be a crappy generic poor quality cheap pedal. They were shimano 105s. Not the best but I approve. I am using them over my speedplays because the total pedal, and cleat weight feels like its less.
>Dial in my fitting. Plenty of post showing, dont feel to stretched out (which I was worrying about). Hoods feel amazing in my hands. Low aggressive parallel position on the drops. Its like the bike was built for me.
>I have heard lots of complaints about the saddle, it fits my sit bones perfectly, I prefer hard saddles. I also have a specialized toupe expert. The toupe is prob a little nicer but it wasn't enough a difference to switch it out right away. I am happy with it.
>Did not feel the need to move tilt or position of saddle in any way other than dimension
>took the bike out for the first ride. (freezing rain) I didnt even think to look what gear I was in, but I pushed on the pedal to rotate the the cranks around to clip in and I could already feel the smoothness and power transfer. I took off quickly down the road
>DAT RIDE QUALITY
>satisfying tink tink tink noise over the larger breaks in the road, and bumps.
>Sprint back home. Cav who?
>Wake up ride to work in freezing rain
>Ski goggles and ski mask activated.
>with bookbag, cloths, food, and lots of clothing on I averaged over 20 mph for 15 miles and about 700 foot of climbing with normal commuting effort.
>tied normal fastest time almost exactly, previously achieved with less carrying weight and dry conditions.

Other notes:
>11-28 x 39-53
>climbing in big ring not a problem
>FINALLY a comfortable sram hood
>love the new outlined decals
>Braking power=amazing
>happy as ****, this is my third bike from bikesdirect.com I'm a life long customer.


----------



## flatsix911

Great article on 5 Titanium Dream Bikes in the December issue of Bicycling :thumbsup:

Gear and Bike Reviews: The Custom Super Review at Bicycling.com









Gear and Bike Reviews: The Custom Road Review at Bicycling.com









Gear and Bike Reviews: The Custom Road Review at Bicycling.com









Gear and Bike Reviews: The Custom Road Review at Bicycling.com









Gear and Bike Reviews: The Corretto Review at Bicycling.com


----------



## froze

^^^ Great bikes I'm sure, but you're paying more than three times the cost of a Motobecane top of line Titanium bike to get something that maybe about 5% to 10% at the most better than a Motobecane...I can't see the point in that! Of course Lynsky wasn't even mentioned, you can get a nice Lynsky for about twice as much as a Motobecane similarly equipped.


----------



## JasonB176

homebrewevolver said:


> New Red Moto Ti 2013
> 
> 6'2'' 35.75 insteam.
> 
> I got the 59cm and I am happy with the choice. The thing fits absolutely perfect.
> 
> Here is my experience:
> >I get home from work and wife says UPS guy says, "this is way to light to be a bike"
> >Open box, the thing is a work of art.
> >beautiful welds
> >DAT TUBING, I was expecting it to be round, I was happy to see it was a pear oblong shape, and larger bottom tube that leads to more stability, and stiffness.
> >Light as ****, for shits and gigs I took a picture of myself holding the bike out with my arm fully extended.
> >Start putting thing together, remove dork disk,reflectors, make sure everything is tight, ect
> >Attach bike to my trainer, adjust derailleurs, B limit needed dropped, high and low were fine, mid range barrel adjustment needed
> >Front Derailleur, Remounted, limits reset can cover full range in both chainrings, shifts instantly, when they say zero loss they freaking mean it, im speechless.
> >wheels already true, Mavic Kysirium elites. So stiff. So light
> >as I am spinning the pedals I let go and I notice something I have never seen before. Everything is so smooth and perfect that the momentum of the wheel turning was enough to push the cassette, and actually turn the cranks. Even If I stopped the cranks and let the hub engage, they cranks would start spinning again when I let go. This gyroscopic effect astounded me. Once again, words can not describe how I felt. The bike is LITERALLY the closest to propelling itself without actually propelling itself.
> >Order included free clipless pedals. I was happy to see that they were a name brand. I assumed they would be a crappy generic poor quality cheap pedal. They were shimano 105s. Not the best but I approve. I am using them over my speedplays because the total pedal, and cleat weight feels like its less.
> >Dial in my fitting. Plenty of post showing, dont feel to stretched out (which I was worrying about). Hoods feel amazing in my hands. Low aggressive parallel position on the drops. Its like the bike was built for me.
> >I have heard lots of complaints about the saddle, it fits my sit bones perfectly, I prefer hard saddles. I also have a specialized toupe expert. The toupe is prob a little nicer but it wasn't enough a difference to switch it out right away. I am happy with it.
> >Did not feel the need to move tilt or position of saddle in any way other than dimension
> >took the bike out for the first ride. (freezing rain) I didnt even think to look what gear I was in, but I pushed on the pedal to rotate the the cranks around to clip in and I could already feel the smoothness and power transfer. I took off quickly down the road
> >DAT RIDE QUALITY
> >satisfying tink tink tink noise over the larger breaks in the road, and bumps.
> >Sprint back home. Cav who?
> >Wake up ride to work in freezing rain
> >Ski goggles and ski mask activated.
> >with bookbag, cloths, food, and lots of clothing on I averaged over 20 mph for 15 miles and about 700 foot of climbing with normal commuting effort.
> >tied normal fastest time almost exactly, previously achieved with less carrying weight and dry conditions.
> 
> Other notes:
> >11-28 x 39-53
> >climbing in big ring not a problem
> >FINALLY a comfortable sram hood
> >love the new outlined decals
> >Braking power=amazing
> >happy as ****, this is my third bike from bikesdirect.com I'm a life long customer.


You took your brand new bike into the freezing rain for its first ride?! I hope my Motobecane doesn't get wet for a long time. That's what the other two bikes are for.

Still, I'm glad you've very pleased with the bike and had fun. Photos please!


----------



## homebrewevolver

JasonB176 said:


> You took your brand new bike into the freezing rain for its first ride?! I hope my Motobecane doesn't get wet for a long time. That's what the other two bikes are for.
> 
> Still, I'm glad you've very pleased with the bike and had fun. Photos please!


yes sir! bike are meant to be rode!


----------



## JasonB176

homebrewevolver said:


> yes sir! bike are meant to be rode!


Hmmm, what's this about always repping back?


----------



## froze

It's titanium, it won't rust, corrode, or delaminate, so what's the problem with riding it in the rain? Not saying I would do that if it were my bike, but I wouldn't be scared not to either.


----------



## JasonB176

It's the other parts of the bike I'd be more concerned about. I believe the BB on these bikes is particularly suspect to getting damaged with wetness. I've also read that the spokes on Ksyrium wheels are known to corrode. I haven't experienced this personally but it's still a consideration.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> It's the other parts of the bike I'd be more concerned about. I believe the BB on these bikes is particularly suspect to getting damaged with wetness. I've also read that the spokes on Ksyrium wheels are known to corrode. I haven't experienced this personally but it's still a consideration.


Not sure what brand spokes Mavic uses but I have spokes on bikes that got rode in all sorts of weather and are not corroded...yet! But I reckon by the time they do corrode the wheels will be due for replacement anyways. 

My biggest concern for aluminum parts to corrode would be due to magnesium chloride or calcium chloride and salt used on roadways to clear ice, either of that stuff will quickly start to pit and corrode aluminum. What most people don't realize is that Titanium will corrode if introduced to magnesium chloride or calcium chloride! Regardless if you're riding it on streets treated to prevent icing you'll need to wash it off after every ride and clean and lube the chain.

The stock BB is not a very good BB that's for sure, the failures I've heard have been for various reasons and water is not the sole reason for their failures. If the BB goes bad replace it with a Chris King, they make one that will work on that bike, probably the best BB on the market; and their not horribly expensive, the non ceramic bearing BB cost about $145 and if you want to service it yourself you can get the grease injector tool is about $49. If at some point you do go with a Chris King BB use Exxon Mobil's Polyrex EM grease. 

Speaking of Chris King's BB's, if you go that route in the future consider the ceramic bearings if you can afford it and need it for racing, if you're not racing and money is tight I don't see the point especially since the tested wattage savings is only less than a 1/2 a watt; You also cannot judge a ceramic bearing systems ability to spin freely by watching a video of both types, steel and ceramic, spinning on a test lab setup because those setups have no loads! 

The durability issue of ceramic bearings is still waiting on the jury to report back. I have a Suntour Superbe BB that has over 160,000 miles on the steel bearings so I'm not sure how much more life one can expect out of a set of bearings! Keep in mind too that ceramic bearings will NOT prevent water and grit from damaging the bearings, so you'll still need to relube after exposure and the Chris King injector system makes that easy to do. Also ceramic bearings require ceramic lube not the Mobil stuff I mentioned earlier. 

One other note, outboard bearings being used on most modern bikes today are not as good as the inboard when it comes to durability and longevity to being poorly designed but the Chris King addresses most if not all those issues.

Personally when it comes to ceramic ball bearings, I think it's just another way for the cycling industry to sell highly expensive parts with no real value to posers with unlimited financial resources or are in debt up to their ears.


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## mattheis

Red BB ceramic bearings + Water = BAD
Sram actually recommends re-greasing after every wet ride, I know it's extreme on their end, but obviously there is a bit more concern when using ceramic


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Red BB ceramic bearings + Water = BAD
> Sram actually recommends re-greasing after every wet ride, I know it's extreme on their end, but obviously there is a bit more concern when using ceramic


You have too, or should anyways, do that with steel bearings anyways. But I have heard pros and cons to what you said. I've heard ceramics don't like water like you said, but then hardcore MTB'rs are saying that's not true and they use them all the time. So I'm not sure if anyone really knows. Like I said the jury is still out, ceramic bearings have not been out anywhere near as long as steel bearings, once they've been around for 15 years or more then we'll have a far better understanding of how well they hold up vs steel.


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## mbblacketer

*Le Champion Team Ti Bottom Bracket Shell*

Hello all:
I've pieced together some interesting stuff for my first bike build - almost new (11 total miles) SRAM Apex stuff from a Motobecane Super Strada (2012) and a Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti frame - it is an unknown year (2011 or 2012), but was previously built up with Di2 stuff and a non-threaded bottom bracket / crank. I'm requesting some advice on how to build up this bike using what I've already bought . . . 
First question is: What will I need to do to get the Apex crank / GXP bottom bracket to fit the frame? The bottom bracket shell is unthreaded (which I don't find any mention of on the BD website - heck, the only mention of a Di2 setup on this frame is from the peloton magazine article from august 2011). It seems like I will need an adapter / sleeve to press into the frame, then thread the GXP into that, or, buy the bearings and some GXP adapter sleeves? The I.D. of the frame / bracket appears to be about 41 mm (I don't have the proper tools to measure). Does this mean that it is a BB30 frame? Or is there a Shimano Press fit frame? 
Also, I have to figure out how to run cables on this frame - there aren't any cable stops for the derailleurs, so I may have to think about having something welded on or???? Any help appreciated! Thanks


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## vautrain

You may have a hard time with that frame and the Apex group. The frame seems to be set up for Di2 only (hence no derailleur cable stops), the power and control cables are probably supposed to be internally routed. Not sure whether the BB shell is BB30 or Shimano press fit, Shimano is 41mm and BB30 is like 41.96mm or something like that. I don't know if it's possible to run derailleur cables internally on that frame, but that's probably your only hope with the Apex group. Having stops welded on is non-trivial, unless you have a titanium frame builder nearby, and they probably wouldn't be too happy about setting up your Motobecane frame with stops for you. Clamp on stops won't work with the non-round downtube.

Your best bet might be to dump the frame and get one made for a mechanical group, or dump the Apex and get Di2.

Edit: Come to think of it, BD does not have a production model Le Champion Ti with Di2. Perhaps you have this exact frame, or another pre-produciton sample? 
Peloton - August-September 2011


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## mbblacketer

Yeah, that article is the only mention of the this frame that I can find; trying to get more information from the P.O. now . . .
I hate to get rid of it - the whole reason I wanted it was because I wanted to build up a relatively inexpensive all weather (hence the ti) and all conditions (hence the apex - 11/32) bike. I'm thinking I can get the frame welded locally, I just don't know how much it will cost me, but am still trying to think of some outside the box solutions. The BB situation is my first concern - just trying to figure out what parts I'll need to fit the crank. Thanks for the reply and advice - keep it coming!


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## vautrain

What would they weld to the frame? You need some Ti cable stops, I don't know where you're going to find those, and I'm guessing the weld job would be at least $100, maybe more. 

I think your best bet is to sell it to someone who wants to build it up with Di2. It might be relatively easy to sell that frame, maybe even for $1,000, and then you can buy a new Le Champ Ti frame that's ready to take the Apex group. Think about all the people who saw that article and have been waiting for the Le Champ Ti Di2. Heck, if I had $1,000 laying around, I'd probably offer to buy it.


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## mbblacketer

Ouch . . . "Dump" the frame?! I know what you mean though - I've thought about it, but I really want a Ti frame to build up. At the same time, I would hate to alter a frame that does seem set up for a very small segment of the biking public - I probably need to step back and perhaps offer the frame up for sale or trade before I start looking into welding (BTW, the guides / stops are easily obtainable). 
As far as the BB goes, the P.O. had an FSA BB - CF86 CF - which means that the frame is NOT BB30 and I should be able to get a SRAM bottom bracket that will allow fitment of the Apex crank (I can't add a link to the BB that I think will work). Time to do some thinking . . .


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> Try those other things the posters mentioned to, Check the tires for roundness as well, and check to make sure their seated properly, once you remove the tires to check the tubes you will have to reinstall the tires anyways. Is the shaking mostly felt in the bars or is the whole bike shaking? If mostly in the bars then the headset, front tire/tube, or a wheel problem could be the issue. I doubt the brakes are touching but it's a fast easy check to make sure.


I thought I'd update on the shaking issue. I didn't test for tube problems because I wanted to see if the shaking occurred again. I've ridden down hills since at 45 MPH without it happening. I think what was to blame that time is that the front of the bike is very light and sensitive to the smallest input. If you're not super relaxed with your grip, it will create a shimmy. I think I was a bit nervous that time it shook and that created the effect. It's happened to me at slower speeds only in the 30s. As long as I don't have a death grip and do my best to keep my body still and relaxed, the bike is very solid at high speeds.


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## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I thought I'd update on the shaking issue. I didn't test for tube problems because I wanted to see if the shaking occurred again. I've ridden down hills since at 45 MPH without it happening. I think what was to blame that time is that the front of the bike is very light and sensitive to the smallest input. If you're not super relaxed with your grip, it will create a shimmy. I think I was a bit nervous that time it shook and that created the effect. It's happened to me at slower speeds only in the 30s. As long as I don't have a death grip and do my best to keep my body still and relaxed, the bike is very solid at high speeds.


Interesting, I'm glad you figured it out and are now enjoying the ride. I forgot to mention too, although now a moot point, that sometimes moving the tire on the rim a 1/4th a turn then rechecking can eliminate shaking, sometimes you may have to move it another 1/4th a turn.


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## JasonB176

I see the 2013 model of the Team Ti is finally available, now for $2999, $200 more than I paid for my 2012 version.

Shimano Dura Ace DA9000 Road Bikes | Titanium Road Bikes | Roadbikes - 2013 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti

As far as I can tell, the components are identical to last year's, just one year newer.


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## paulfeng

Jason - the new 2013 version has the all-new Dura-Ace 9000 components that have nearly universally been lauded as a significant improvement over DA 7900.




JasonB176 said:


> I see the 2013 model of the Team Ti is finally available, now for $2999, $200 more than I paid for my 2012 version.
> 
> Shimano Dura Ace DA9000 Road Bikes | Titanium Road Bikes | Roadbikes - 2013 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti
> 
> As far as I can tell, the components are identical to last year's, just one year newer.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I see the 2013 model of the Team Ti is finally available, now for $2999, $200 more than I paid for my 2012 version.
> 
> Shimano Dura Ace DA9000 Road Bikes | Titanium Road Bikes | Roadbikes - 2013 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti
> 
> As far as I can tell, the components are identical to last year's, just one year newer.


That's life in our inflationary world. $200 isn't bad and Shimano did have a price hike, so between that and probably the frame material overall it isn't bad. Did you check to see if the wheel set was the same? I know I don't want the Dura Ace because replacement parts are stupidly high in cost, and since I'm not racing I don't see the point, Ultegra is perfectly fine for me.

Now that you had your bike for a year how are you liking it? Any changes you did or would like to do? I notice you own a couple of other bikes, one is 853 steel and the other is aluminum, would you say the Ti is the best riding of the two or is there little difference? Sorry for the questions.


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## JasonB176

paulfeng said:


> Jason - the new 2013 version has the all-new Dura-Ace 9000 components that have nearly universally been lauded as a significant improvement over DA 7900.


Ah, I forgot what version I have. Do you know if they are being lauded for more than just being lighter (I'm assuming they weigh less)? Durability means more in my book.


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## threebikes

froze -I forgot to mention too, although now a moot point, that sometimes moving the tire on the rim a 1/4th a turn then rechecking can eliminate shaking.


I have a nice set of carbon rims. Over 20 mph they felt out of balance so I checked them. It seems the valve stem was throwing the rims balance out. I put new tubes in with shorter valve stems. Then I used these stick on fishing weights (suspen strips) to balance them. I added them in two places 120 deg away from the heavy spot. It made quite a difference. So far 3 others have ridden the bike. They all went out and bought the strips. The Walmart by me has them.

STORM® Suspendots™ and SuspenStrips™ Weights | Bass Pro Shops


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## JasonB176

froze said:


> That's life in our inflationary world. $200 isn't bad and Shimano did have a price hike, so between that and probably the frame material overall it isn't bad. Did you check to see if the wheel set was the same? I know I don't want the Dura Ace because replacement parts are stupidly high in cost, and since I'm not racing I don't see the point, Ultegra is perfectly fine for me.
> 
> Now that you had your bike for a year how are you liking it? Any changes you did or would like to do? I notice you own a couple of other bikes, one is 853 steel and the other is aluminum, would you say the Ti is the best riding of the two or is there little difference? Sorry for the questions.


Sorry, I only saw your post today.

The wheelset is the same - Ksyrium Elites.

I'm very happy with the Ti bike. I haven't ridden it in a couple of months as I've been on my beater (the Specialized aluminum) but I rode it plenty during the good weather. Other than the issues with the seatpost, everything has been great. That shaking at high speed I'm pretty sure was due to the way I riding, too much of a deathgrip on the handlebars, because when I've been more relaxed, I haven't felt it.

I'd say overall that the Ti is my favorite ride though I still love the 853 steel. It's pleasant to be able to enjoy the subtleties of both.


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## froze

JasonB176 said:


> Sorry, I only saw your post today.
> 
> The wheelset is the same - Ksyrium Elites.
> 
> I'm very happy with the Ti bike. I haven't ridden it in a couple of months as I've been on my beater (the Specialized aluminum) but I rode it plenty during the good weather. Other than the issues with the seatpost, everything has been great. That shaking at high speed I'm pretty sure was due to the way I riding, too much of a deathgrip on the handlebars, because when I've been more relaxed, I haven't felt it.
> 
> I'd say overall that the Ti is my favorite ride though I still love the 853 steel. It's pleasant to be able to enjoy the subtleties of both.


Thanks for the reply. I was straying away from the Motobecane because Competitive Cyclist has a forever return policy, crashes included, the Pinerallo Team bike looked like a great deal, but after debating it some more I decided to stay with the Motobecane direction due to titanium vs carbon fiber ordeal. But first I need to find a job, I got laid off in June so the wants are on hold while the needs come first.


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## Alfonsina

DH is just putting together the champ sl ti and was wondering about the brake lever/carbon modulus fork torque, is 5nm going to do it?


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## Dresden

Alfonsina said:


> DH is just putting together the champ sl ti and was wondering about the brake lever/carbon modulus fork torque, is 5nm going to do it?



Assuming the bike has been assembled by now, I'm wondering if the sizing turned out okay for you. I recall you being a little worried about that.


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## Alfonsina

I have been sick and we have had snow so I have only sat on the trainer while DH tweaked the fit (I don't ride on the trainer though). I will have to wait for the snow to clear, but it doesn't jump out as being OMG it is so much bigger LOL. Which is what I was worried about. Just eyeing it beside my other bike, it looks pretty much the same. I see that I can replace the stem as that is longer than the one on my kestrel but I want to take it for a good long ride before I start really fussing with it. I have put my girlie saddle on though. I will report back when I can get out.

I took it out for a quick spin yesterday and it feels great, I need to put the seat back a bit and tweak the handlebar position but it felt really comfortable off the bat. Gearing was a change for me from 105 25 cassette to the much appreciated 28 (local rides are averaging @ 100ft climb per mile and this is going to make Suncrest more enjoyable) . The ultegra shifter feels a little delicate but I suppose it is lighter than the 105 and it certainly shifts easily. Hopefully it is dry tomorrow so I can start doing some miles.

I have now put some decent miles in it and it feels great, I can't point out any real fit differences, it feels light and responsive, the gearing is great It is about 2 pounds lighter than my old bike so I am sure that can't hurt. It feels fine on the descents (I hate going down). I am really enjoying it.


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## [email protected]

Well, after much thought and research, I ordered my Ti Heat with SRAM from Bikes Direct. Why do you say? I've been riding all my life. Actually, 41 years. I've been married for 30 years, raised three sons and have not lost my intense passion for cycling. I rode across the US a long time ago on a full Reynolds 531 main tubes, Columbus fork, seat and chain stays, Cinelli fork crown, Campagnolo dropouts, and full Campy groupo with two chainrings = 42/52, with a 12-34 cassette. So, all that to say, I know what I'm talking about. On Feb. 8th, I had back surgery. The orthopedic surgeon said I needed as soft a ride as possible. Steel, great but too heavy. I didn't like the idea of CF simply because if it gets hit, it can break. Titanium? LiteSpeed, Linsky, Moots, etc? Expensive. I simply think that I can take a chance with BD Ti Heat for $1600. Sometimes, economics simply will not allow a $3500+ purchase. I did a lot of research and I've found nothing yet to indicate that I shouldn't. So, it will be delivered by the end of this week. I'll keep you posted on the experience. In the mean time, thanks Bikes Direct for an affordable product that appears to have an excellent fit and finish. Is the name as sexy as a Colnago or Pinerello or De Rosa? No. But again, I can't afford these. My experience thus far has been fine.


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## usn.mustanger

John, I've got a feeling that even as the grizzled veteran that you are, you won't be disappointed in your BD Ti bike. The fit, finish, components, and overall quality are indeed top notch. Enjoy your new wheels when you get 'em and savor the fact that you paid half as much (or less) as an equivalent name brand bike with no compromise in quality! I love mine!


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## Torelli4

+1 on the Ti Heat. Picked mine up on the BD Black Friday sale back in Novmeber. Went with Ti for the exact reasons you did. Sold the Aksiums on Craigslist and put on a set of light wheels. SRAM Rival works as well or better than my other bike's Campy Centaur. Looking forward to a couple of Centuries this year. I doubt you'll be dissapointed.


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## froze

John, you sound like my twin brother! I don't actually have a twin but if I did you would be him. I too have been riding 41 years, married for 32, rode nothing but various steel bikes, hurt my lower back in an accident due to a drunk driver, and I too was considering a TI bike from BD then thought of going with CF but for the same reasons you mentioned I'm going back to thinking about the TI bike again. I'm considering the SL version, kind of wish BD would come out with a couple of models with Campy because I like Campy better than Shimano but I can live with it. 

But I have to wait till I find a gainful employment again due to getting laid off due to the injury.


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## [email protected]

I have received two notifications from BD on my purchase. I received a third from UPS. So far, BD seems to be well organized. Both emails from them are full of information that shows solid customer support. I email Chris, Karla, and Matt, expressing my excitement of my purchase, and to remind them of my delivery address which is not my home. The bike will be delivered to the school in which I teach. I received emails back within 12 hours stating that they made sure the delivery address was my school. All is in order. I will be watching how they handle this whole process. I anticipate good results. I will keep all posted. So far, I am impressed with their followup. I should receive the bicycle tomorrow, Wed the 27th.


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## Eretz

[email protected] said:


> I have received two notifications from BD on my purchase.


Six posts and we already have your full email addy. Cool. Good luck on your purchase.

I love my CX frame. 

Froze, really good over all advise especially on the vibration and adjustment on the tire and valve stem stuff.


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## [email protected]

*Excellent Bikes Direct Experience So Far*

Here's my next post on my purchase of a Motobecane Ti Heat with SRAM Rival. I opened the box after having taken pictures of the outside and the shipping label. If I was to experience a problem and had to return the bike for any reason, I wanted to make sure that I knew exactly how to package it. Being very careful to save every item of packaging, I had a grand time pulling the bicycle out of the box...with much anticipation. Every part was intact and provided. The size of the bike was exact, and shipping instructions were perfect. Uncovering all the parts, the first thing I noticed was how "handsome" the Motobecane logo was on the downtube. It looked strong with the black lettering. I carefully began to assemble the bicycle with the basic assembly. The more I assembled, the better the bike looked. Also, for the record, the finish of the Ti frame is superb. Rich in luster. The only clear-coated part of the frame was on top of the lettering. Since I realized the bike was the right size for me, I took off the "Made in Tiawan" sticker off the head tube. I also took off the "Safety" sticker off the top tube. Because I am a typically a fair weather cyclist, I won't ride it yet until later in the month when the weather breaks. The only suggestion I have for all purchasers....leave the cardboard covering on the top tube until you get the handlebars attached because the raw brake cable will scratch across the bare top tube. I didn't anticipate that, and a slight scratch ended up there. Bikes Direct did exactly what they said they were going to do. I am well pleased thus far. BTW: I am 6' tall, 184, with slightly longer arms. The 56 cm frame size is perfect for me.


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## froze

[email protected] said:


> .leave the cardboard covering on the top tube until you get the handlebars attached because the raw brake cable will scratch across the bare top tube. I didn't anticipate that, and a slight scratch ended up there.


Trying using a very fine abrasive Scotch Brite pad you find at your grocery store and rub the pad in the same direction as the brush of metal the factory put onto the frame. If that area has a clear coat on it then don't do that with the Scotch Brite pad or else it could rub off the clear coat; and do not use it on polished or matt finished TI. When using the ScotchBrite pad just use it a very isolated area where the scratch is, in other words don't rub where there is no scratch which means you may have to fold the pad and use the fold area to narrow down the area being rubbed. Or do nothing if doesn't bug you and leave it. 

Then when your done with the scratch clean and polish the bike with Lemon Pledge. Pledge furniture polish works great at getting ti to look clean and it's fast to do. Pledge however does not work good on painted metal surfaces, it's too fragile to protect paint from UV and weather, but with nude TI UV and weather is not a factor but it makes ti shine, and it's so fast you could do it everyday after each ride.

Word of warning about decals on your Motobecane. According to their warranty info, is you purposely remove the decals your warranty will be voided. This only applies to the branding decals, the safety decal and the made in Taiwan label is not included in that. Not sure why that is unless that frame design is used on other brands and therefore they won't be able to distinguish which brand the frame is.


----------



## JasonB176

JasonB176 said:


> I see the 2013 model of the Team Ti is finally available, now for $2999, $200 more than I paid for my 2012 version.
> 
> Shimano Dura Ace DA9000 Road Bikes | Titanium Road Bikes | Roadbikes - 2013 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti
> 
> As far as I can tell, the components are identical to last year's, just one year newer.


Well, this is kind of odd. A trip back to the website and I see that they've raised their price on the team model to $3499. I guess they figured the January price of $2999 was too low but I've never heard of a company raising the price on a model without any changes to it just a couple of months later.

As an aside, after months of riding my beater, I finally was able to ride the titanium yesterday. Wow, I forgot what a pure joy it is! It is so responsive.


----------



## JasonB176

linded said:


> Jason,
> 
> To check for a loose headset, stand over the bike's top tube, grip the front brake lever tightly and try to rock the front wheel back and forth.You should feel no "play" or movement in the steering column. If you feel movement, then you will need to tighten the headset. Start that by loosening all 2 bolts that hold the stem to the steering tube. Then, using a 5mm hex wrench, turn the bolt on top of the headset cap clockwise until you feel no more play in the headset, as above, and also checking that the fork freely rotates right and left, thus avoiding overtightening the headset bearings. Finish by realigning the handlebars and retightening those 4 bolts that hold the stem to the steering tube. Hope this helps.


Sorry for the terribly late reply but I did indeed have a loose headset - very loose in fact. My descents have been mixed, some with shaking and others without but it will be interesting to see how they are now that I've finally tightened the headset. It is strange that I developed this problem only months after my LBS assembled it. Apparently they did a lousy job with the headset.


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## mattheis

Just a teaser from last summer :thumbsup:


----------



## froze

Anz33alone said:


> I've read that some still prefer Shimano whereas others like SRAM.


Shhhh, not so loud man! 

I decided against the Motobecane after having my mind set on one for over a year. BD was out of stock on the Inferno model I wanted when I decided to order, so when I asked when it might be back in stock last month I was told by Mike that all the 2013 models would have disk brakes? I don't want disk brakes there so unnecessary on a road bike and they add weight and complication, so I switched at the last moment to Lynskey. I'll be spending more and only getting the 105 group with some upgrades. At least with the Lynskey I could make some key upgrades, I upgraded the rear derailleur to Ultegra, the FSA Orbit headset to Cane Creek 110, Lynskey Pro CF fork to Enve 2.0, and Shimano 501A (black and slightly less aero) wheels to Shimano 501S (silver and slightly more aero). Adrenaline where I ordered the bike from have a great staff that know their stuff, I made the recommendations for the changes and Matthew agreed with all of it except the headset I wanted the Cane Creek 40 but he said the 110 was far superior. Supposedly the Lynskey frame weighs less then the Motobecane too.


----------



## JasonB176

froze said:


> Shhhh, not so loud man!
> 
> I decided against the Motobecane after having my mind set on one for over a year. BD was out of stock on the Inferno model I wanted when I decided to order, so when I asked when it might be back in stock last month I was told by Mike that all the 2013 models would have disk brakes? I don't want disk brakes there so unnecessary on a road bike and they add weight and complication, so I switched at the last moment to Lynskey. I'll be spending more and only getting the 105 group with some upgrades. At least with the Lynskey I could make some key upgrades, I upgraded the rear derailleur to Ultegra, the FSA Orbit headset to Cane Creek 110, Lynskey Pro CF fork to Enve 2.0, and Shimano 501A (black and slightly less aero) wheels to Shimano 501S (silver and slightly more aero). Adrenaline where I ordered the bike from have a great staff that know their stuff, I made the recommendations for the changes and Matthew agreed with all of it except the headset I wanted the Cane Creek 40 but he said the 110 was far superior. Supposedly the Lynskey frame weighs less then the Motobecane too.


I wouldn't want disk brakes either. I'm surprised that ALL 2013 models only have them. Disappointing. I'm glad I got my 2012 model for the price I did with the components it has.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I wouldn't want disk brakes either. I'm surprised that ALL 2013 models only have them. Disappointing. I'm glad I got my 2012 model for the price I did with the components it has.


I was going to order a 2012 model earlier but I got laid off so that was put on hold for almost a year, so by the time I was ready they don't have many bikes in stock, none of the two that I wanted, and the new 2013 models of at least the two models I wanted was going to have disk brakes. So I ordered a lynskey. Sure the Lynskey is probably a slightly better bike and it's made in America, which is cool, but at the time I was looking at the Moto's the Lynskey's were another $2,5000 more! But the new 2013 model is only about $800 more and I got customize it a little bit whereas with the Moto I couldn't have done that. So for now I'm happy with the decision, I'll be happier when I can ride it!!


----------



## mattheis

Im excited if the CX get a disk upgrade this year since the frame is already built for them... not so much for road.


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Im excited if the CX get a disk upgrade this year since the frame is already built for them... not so much for road.


I could see disk brakes for the CX bikes they have, and even for the touring TI bike they have also, but not the road bikes. Although in regards to the touring bike people have toured for over half a century without disk brakes so I just wonder how useful they'll really will be for that application.


----------



## RLucky82

disk brakes stop much better in the wet/rain if your bike stays dry then not much use for them. I have had instances in the rain when my levers were dam near pinned to my bar and I was barley slowing down on a descent. not a good feeling when approaching a stop sign and cross traffic doesn't stop!


----------



## froze

RLucky82 said:


> disk brakes stop much better in the wet/rain if your bike stays dry then not much use for them. I have had instances in the rain when my levers were dam near pinned to my bar and I was barley slowing down on a descent. not a good feeling when approaching a stop sign and cross traffic doesn't stop!


I've ridden my bikes in the rain and never experience the stopping problem you have. Sure they take about one wheel revolution to dry the rim but then they grab. I use to live in California and rode the mountains there, and once in a blue moon I would get rained on and coming out of the mountains in rain gave me no additional thrills. 

Pro racers raced in the rain for year down steep winding roads and they did just fine.

I think your pads are poor quality.


----------



## Hiro11

Just got a Ti Team frame in the mail last night. Initial reactions:

1. Size is true to listed geometry. This is a bit more "compact" than I was expecting, giving greater standover clearance. The chainstays are very tight on this frame, I can see why some people have issues with 25MM tires. The top tube is 55cm, longer than a typical 53. Headtube is nice and long, giving a fairly upright stance (somewhere between a hardcore racer and a more relaxed biek). I think I'll "slam the stem" with my negative 7 degree stem on this one. Seatpost is going to have ~7 inches showing to get to my 29.1" saddle height. I'm 5'10" and the 53 seems to fit me perfectly.

2. Construction quality is very, very nice. For this price, I'd say it's unexpectedly nice. The welds are "stack of dimes" even, maybe not Moots but close (note: I didn't pay 4 grand). Rear drop outs are nice and beefy, bosses are neatly welded, cage bosses are welded inserts (very nice little detail). BB shell and drop-in headset races are well machined and parts dropped right in. Love the multiple drainhole placements, this bike can handle a wet ride. Frame seems dead true. Are these tubes hydroformed? The down tube and top tube are essentially triangular, the downtube is Cannondale-massive, making me think that this frame will be plenty stiff for me (I'm ~145 lbs). The fork has massive, highly sculpted 3K legs but the 1 1/8 crown is fairly typical. The steerer is carbon, but has an alloy insert for the crown race.

3. There is no clear coat on this frame. In fact, it says so right on the box. This is a 2013 version of the frame, not sure if that means anything. The brushed, raw finish is sweet but picks up greasy finger prints like crazy. I actually really like the "outline" decals, very subtle but add just enough visual flair. The "high modulus CARBON" decals on the fork are ugly and Fredly, IMO. not crazy about the look of the fork overall, but it will work.

4. Included an FSA drop-in headset, looks like a nice standard part. At least I won't have to search around for some insane headset standard with this frame.

Overall, very, very pleased. This frame is exactly what I wanted.


----------



## usn.mustanger

Solid review, Hiro, much value added to the thread, so thank you. 
I've had my LeChamp Ti for coming up on a year, and I had many of the same observations you did when I got mine. As a mechanical engineer, I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into these frames. It truly is a thing of beauty. My big-name-bike-riding friends can't believe how much I paid for this thing.
Please do come back and give us your ride impressions once you've gotten it broken in.


----------



## zippy the pinhead

Rub it down every now and then with Pedro's Bike Lust, and it will help to cut down on the way fingerprints and road schmutz contrast with the titanium.

These are great bikes, an awesome value. I have a Le Champion titanium, also a 53, and when I first got it my jaded, high-end Italian steel riding bike mechanic friend was favorably impressed. The appearance of the welds was something he noted as an indicator of quality. You can get prettier welds on other brands, but you can also pay quite a bit more for that, among other things.

According to the owner of BD these frames are made in Taiwan by Dodsun, a firm which makes frames for several brands.

I have about 6,000 miles on mine, and it is a great bike. I'm totally satisfied.


----------



## Hiro11

zippy the pinhead said:


> According to the owner of BD these frames are made in Taiwan by Dodsun, a firm which makes frames for several brands.


I thought they were made by Ora Engineering. They have an Ora decal on them.


----------



## zippy the pinhead

Hiro11 said:


> I thought they were made by Ora Engineering. They have an Ora decal on them.


I asked Mike Spratt, a.k.a. "bikesdirect_com" directly, and he said it was Dodsun. Never thought to ask him about the Ora decal.

Maybe Ora makes the frames and Dodsun does the assembly; Dodsun does have bikes on their site which look just like a Motobecane Le Champ ti, just with different decals.


----------



## froze

Nice review, you got lucky because BD seems to be out of virtually every size of every model for months. Did you get one with disk brakes? Mike at BD told me the 2013 models were all going to have disk brakes which turned me off. They are solid value, I just couldn't find one in my size and after waiting and waiting for months for restock, then upon hearing the disk brake thing I moved on.


----------



## Hiro11

No discs on this one.

Built it up today with Ultegra and Farsports 50MM carbon wheels. Have not weighed it. Super easy build, done in 3 hours, including bar tape and cages. Frame makers, take note: internal cables are a needless pain in the ass. Stick with external. It's a fairly upright frame, I have a 1cm spacer under a negative 7 degree stem and am running about 4 inches of bar drop with my saddle height at 29 inches from the center of the bottom bracket. It's not "century bike" upright, somewhere between that and a race bike (as I mentioned before).

I took it for a ten mile shakedown. My other bike is a generic copy of a Scott Foil: a very stiff, very twitchy race bike. Big difference...

In a word this frame is "springy". Not floppy or noodle like, it's plenty stiff. It just has that metallic twang that you don't necessarily get with carbon. It's a very lively ride, bringing me back to my old steel Tomassini twenty-five years ago. It's much more compliant over bumps than my carbon frame, which admittedly wouldn't be hard. The bike is distinctly less twitchy and much more stable in descents. The tradeoff is that it doesn't quite rocket into corners like my carbon bike. This is not a crit bike, this seems to be a perfect club riding frame. Initial thoughts, more after a longer ride.


----------



## froze

So you bought the frame and fork and built it yourself? 

Actually the Lynskey I have I had the Enve 2.0 fork put on and either the frame or the fork or both just makes the bike "rocket" into corners better then CF bikes I tested (there may have been some better CF bikes that may have done as well, I only tested about 8 or 9 different ones). But I also thought it was more surefooted in corners then my friends Serrota TI bike and the Motobecane I test rode. The one friend I have races is Motobecane, not as a pro just some club stuff he does around the state, does quite well with it, but that's more the motor then the bike. I also found the titanium bike to be a bit more comfortable the steel rides I have except for maybe the touring bikes when loaded, and way more comfortable then any CF or Aluminium bike I tested or owned. Springy? hmmm, not sure if you mean lively though you do mention that word later, I call it lively, when I get up and hammer to climb hills it just wants to go. I test rode noodly bikes, and none of the titanium bikes I rode were noodly, though I did here that the early small diameter TI tubing was, but now they use larger tubing and compact frame styles to take all of that out.


----------



## Hiro11

30 miles on it this morning. Most of my initial feelings were confirmed. It's not the first choice I would make if I were racing, which I'm not. Again, I'm comparing it to a very hardcore, very twitchy and very stiff racing frame. However, for 4 hour fast club rides, this is just the thing.


----------



## froze

Hiro11 said:


> 30 miles on it this morning. Most of my initial feelings were confirmed. It's not the first choice I would make if I were racing, which I'm not. Again, I'm comparing it to a very hardcore, very twitchy and very stiff racing frame. However, for 4 hour fast club rides, this is just the thing.


I purposely stayed away from hardcore racing bikes to since I didn't want the high seat to low bar riding position, the bikes I tested were not those types. At some point I am thinking about racing again if I can get my average speed up. I'm going to have to start doing some sort of riding during the winter months at a gym on one of the fancy computer jobs.


----------



## potholered70

I'm pretty sure Ora is the frame manufacture of Motobecane Ti bikes and Dodsun the supplier.

ORA Engineering co. LTD

oraeng.imb.com


----------



## froze

potholered70 said:


> I'm pretty sure Ora is the frame manufacture of Motobecane Ti bikes and Dodsun the supplier.
> 
> ORA Engineering co. LTD
> 
> oraeng.imb.com


That's old news. see: I discovered who manufactures all Motobecane Titanium Frames

Just as old as Cannondale now is owned by Pacific Cycles who makes such high quality bikes,


----------



## potholered70

Yes, I know it's old news but Zippy was not sure about the conflicting information he received.

That's the reason for my response.


----------



## froze

I'm wondering if Bikes Direct is selling out their entire inventory with no plans to replenish. They haven't restocked any titanium bikes since their closeout sales last December through January, and now there is just a handful of odd size bikes left. Other bikes are also low on stock to none in stock, they do have some complete stock on some bikes.


----------



## .je

Is that Ora company the same that has all the small parts that go on an Opus, same way that Ritchey or 3T can finish out a bike build, if it's a fancy bike? 

Is it also my impression only that some of the other online retailers don't have the stock the had a year or more ago? Nashbar had many lines of bikes a year ago, and they've all gone out the door, Jenson seems to have done the same as well. Perhaps this is a down slope of a trend?


----------



## flatsix911

froze said:


> I'm wondering if Bikes Direct is selling out their entire inventory with no plans to replenish. They haven't restocked any titanium bikes since their closeout sales last December through January, and now there is just a handful of odd size bikes left. Other bikes are also low on stock to none in stock, they do have some complete stock on some bikes.


I would not be too concerned ... they are clearing out the old stock before they offer the new stuff for 2014 :thumbsup:


----------



## froze

flatsix911 said:


> I would not be too concerned ... they are clearing out the old stock before they offer the new stuff for 2014 :thumbsup:


That may be, but they don't even have any 2013 TI bikes, the closeouts they had were for 2012 not 2013! So I guess their going to skip right past 2013 models and go to 2014 models?


----------



## froze

.je said:


> Is that Ora company the same that has all the small parts that go on an Opus, same way that Ritchey or 3T can finish out a bike build, if it's a fancy bike?
> 
> Is it also my impression only that some of the other online retailers don't have the stock the had a year or more ago? Nashbar had many lines of bikes a year ago, and they've all gone out the door, Jenson seems to have done the same as well. Perhaps this is a down slope of a trend?


It could be they order too many bikes then have to close out a bunch at a loss. Or perhaps they are seeing or anticipating a downturn in the cycling industry.


----------



## JonTargaryen

froze said:


> That may be, but they don't even have any 2013 TI bikes, the closeouts they had were for 2012 not 2013! So I guess their going to skip right past 2013 models and go to 2014 models?


According to BD (I was emailing them about their Ti bikes), they will have the 2014 Le Champion TI available in "the near future", and the 2014 Fantom Cross Team Ti in December. Both will have Ultegra 6800.


----------



## froze

JonTargaryen said:


> According to BD (I was emailing them about their Ti bikes), they will have the 2014 Le Champion TI available in "the near future", and the 2014 Fantom Cross Team Ti in December. Both will have Ultegra 6800.


They told me that back in December!

By the way, speaking of BD, I have an acquaintance who is a bike mechanic, and he and I was talking yesterday about these BD bikes and he said something very odd...I hope this guy hasn't been sniffing the chain lube far to much! But supposedly he has worked on a few of the BD higher end models and claims that the Ultegra and Dura Ace components he seen were counterfeits?! I asked him how he knew that, and he said they were using inferior bushings, plastic instead of steel, and other slightly weird things that didn't look quite like "real" Dura Ace or Ultegra. He's been a mechanic for 25 years, builds custom bikes out of his home, so I would think he would know whereas a young teenager mechanic would not. 

I wonder if anyone else has ever heard of this or can debunk it?


----------



## froze

John684 said:


> Thanks everyone. My bike is on its way and due to arrive at the UPS facility by late on Friday.
> 
> Oakley Sunglasses


What bike brand and model did you decide on?


----------



## flatsix911

froze said:


> By the way, speaking of BD, I have an acquaintance who is a bike mechanic, and he and I was talking yesterday about these BD bikes and he said something very odd...I hope this guy hasn't been sniffing the chain lube far to much! But supposedly he has worked on a few of the BD higher end models and claims that the Ultegra and Dura Ace components he seen were counterfeits?! I asked him how he knew that, and he said they were using inferior bushings, plastic instead of steel, and other slightly weird things that didn't look quite like "real" Dura Ace or Ultegra. He's been a mechanic for 25 years, builds custom bikes out of his home, so I would think he would know whereas a young teenager mechanic would not.
> 
> I wonder if anyone else has ever heard of this or can debunk it?


I say BS regarding this mechanic's story. 
I have a BD bike with Dura-Ace components and my mechanic with over 20 years experience has confirmed the group is OEM stuff. He always comments on the quality ... :thumbsup:


----------



## froze

flatsix911 said:


> I say BS regarding this mechanic's story.
> I have a BD bike with Dura-Ace components and my mechanic with over 20 years experience has confirmed the group is OEM stuff. He always comments on the quality ... :thumbsup:


When he said that I kind of did that open one eye widely you're schiting me look. I do know for a fact that there are fake high end Campy and Shimano gear on the market, but I would think after all the years that BD's been in business that would have surfaced long before now. But he stands behind his story, I just spoke to him about it, he says there are some small subtle differences that an untrained eye won't see or find that differ from other stuff he's stocked and sold...weird, I never smelled marijuana reaping from him. This guy even builds custom trikes out of his home and sends them all over the country...haven't heard of any customers complaining about them, and they are well made, I've seen them and ridden one; though I found a trike won't work for me with my lower back fusion, as I pedal I'm putting pressure on that area of the back against the seat and it hurts like crazy so I quickly decided that a trike wasn't for me.

I guess he just has a quirk!!


----------



## taralon

JonTargaryen said:


> According to BD (I was emailing them about their Ti bikes), they will have the 2014 Le Champion TI available in "the near future", and the 2014 Fantom Cross Team Ti in December. Both will have Ultegra 6800.


This is good news. I want a Le Champion Ti, either bare frame to build a new bike on, or depending on price an Apex/Rival equipped one. They've been sold out in my size for so long I've almost lost hope of getting one.


----------



## froze

taralon said:


> This is good news. I want a Le Champion Ti, either bare frame to build a new bike on, or depending on price an Apex/Rival equipped one. They've been sold out in my size for so long I've almost lost hope of getting one.


Not sure if you read my earlier post, but back in December I e-mailed BD too, they told me the ti's would be back in stock in the near future. What the heck is the near future mean to them? 

Also Mike at BD at the time of the my Dec email told me too that all their new ti models when they come in will have disk brakes, at that point I backed away from buying one of their TI bikes and went with Lynskey, I don't want the hassle of disk brakes mechanical issues or their more weight, and since they don't whole lot more in the rain for stopping why?


----------



## taralon

froze said:


> Not sure if you read my earlier post, but back in December I e-mailed BD too, they told me the ti's would be back in stock in the near future. What the heck is the near future mean to them?
> 
> Also Mike at BD at the time of the my Dec email told me too that all their new ti models when they come in will have disk brakes, at that point I backed away from buying one of their TI bikes and went with Lynskey, I don't want the hassle of disk brakes mechanical issues or their more weight, and since they don't whole lot more in the rain for stopping why?



Disk only doesn't really bother me. I can always swap out the front fork for a non-disk type if I don't like the disk front. I just wish they'd get my size in stock so I could order it. I can't stretch to the price of a lynskey without saving for two or more years, so....


----------



## froze

taralon said:


> Disk only doesn't really bother me. I can always swap out the front fork for a non-disk type if I don't like the disk front. I just wish they'd get my size in stock so I could order it. I can't stretch to the price of a lynskey without saving for two or more years, so....


I understand, and I have ridden a Moto TI it was a really nice bike, for the money it's the best deal on the market, and there's been no complaints about the bike which is huge. The only other TI on the market that comes close to being a low costing ti is the Habanero, but that bike actually cost a little more than the Lynskey I got (without the options I specified) and the frame and fork are made in China instead of the USA, so I guess Habanero is making a huge profit on those bikes. 

I would not have blinked an eye getting the Moto, and I could have upgraded the fork and headset later, or immediately and sell the original fork because the Enve 2.0 does make the bike handle better and feel more secure on the road. The fork on the Moto felt noodly which was the only downfall I could find with the Moto besides the headset. The other no big deal problem is that the Moto does weigh about a pound more than the Lynskey. My friend said BD claimed it weighed 16 pounds, his weighed 1 1/2 pounds more with Dura Ace whereas the Lynskey Peloton weighs 17.8 pounds with 105 and I supposedly have heavier wheels (we haven't weighed the wheels to see how much more). 

But it was the disk brakes that killed the deal for me, even though I was waiting since December for my size to come too which irked me a little bit but not as much as the disk brakes did. If I was wanting a TI touring or cross bike and they said disk brakes I probably wouldn't not had cared? I don't know, but on a road bike it made no sense and I don't want to learn about the technology of those brakes, also they weigh more which isn't a big deal.


----------



## JasonB176

froze said:


> I understand, and I have ridden a Moto TI it was a really nice bike, for the money it's the best deal on the market, and there's been no complaints about the bike which is huge. The only other TI on the market that comes close to being a low costing ti is the Habanero, but that bike actually cost a little more than the Lynskey I got (without the options I specified) and the frame and fork are made in China instead of the USA, so I guess Habanero is making a huge profit on those bikes.
> 
> I would not have blinked an eye getting the Moto, and I could have upgraded the fork and headset later, or immediately and sell the original fork because the Enve 2.0 does make the bike handle better and feel more secure on the road. The fork on the Moto felt noodly which was the only downfall I could find with the Moto besides the headset. The other no big deal problem is that the Moto does weigh about a pound more than the Lynskey. My friend said BD claimed it weighed 16 pounds, his weighed 1 1/2 pounds more with Dura Ace whereas the Lynskey Peloton weighs 17.8 pounds with 105 and I supposedly have heavier wheels (we haven't weighed the wheels to see how much more).
> 
> But it was the disk brakes that killed the deal for me, even though I was waiting since December for my size to come too which irked me a little bit but not as much as the disk brakes did. If I was wanting a TI touring or cross bike and they said disk brakes I probably wouldn't not had cared? I don't know, but on a road bike it made no sense and I don't want to learn about the technology of those brakes, also they weigh more which isn't a big deal.


I'm very puzzled why they switched to disk brakes especially without allowing for an option to have regular brakes. I wouldn't want disk on my road bike either.

You mentioned something about a problem with a BD headset. You might have seen my recent thread about my problem with mine. I wonder how common these headset problems are with BD bikes...?

Still, overall, I remain very happy with mine. Just glad I got the 2012 model with caliper brakes.


----------



## froze

JasonB176 said:


> I'm very puzzled why they switched to disk brakes especially without allowing for an option to have regular brakes. I wouldn't want disk on my road bike either.
> 
> You mentioned something about a problem with a BD headset. You might have seen my recent thread about my problem with mine. I wonder how common these headset problems are with BD bikes...?
> 
> Still, overall, I remain very happy with mine. Just glad I got the 2012 model with caliper brakes.


They use the cheapest $20 FSA (at least in my friends bike) headset they could get, Lynskey sort of did the same thing but upped it to a Orbit IS which I didn't like so I upped it to a Cane Creek 110 when I upped the fork. A $20 headset just won't last long, you can find that quality of headset on Walmart bikes! 

BD does a lot of parts swapping took, that why they say they can't guarantee certain parts will be on the finished bike, but the main components will not change. I also heard they try to find lots of last year model components instead of current year models, which I could care less if they do that. 

There was a mechanic guy in town who I sort of know, and he worked as a mechanic for the last 20 years and builds custom trikes, he claims that BD uses counterfeit components...I have not heard that from anyone else, nor from my friend.


----------



## mellowbob

I received my 2014 Le Champ SL Ti with Ultegra 6800 set last week. Double checked everything. All threads were lubed and headset ok. I ran thru the list of components on their table and it all matched. Only thing off was the front and rear derailleurs adjustments. 

They actually gave me a set Shimano 105 pedal instead of the PD-R550. Came with all manuals for all parts used. Also came with cleats for the 105s.

Putting it together was easy for me because I had all the tools and stand. Great first experience with BD so far.


----------



## froze

mellowbob said:


> I received my 2014 Le Champ SL Ti with Ultegra 6800 set last week. Double checked everything. All threads were lubed and headset ok. I ran thru the list of components on their table and it all matched. Only thing off was the front and rear derailleurs adjustments.
> 
> They actually gave me a set Shimano 105 pedal instead of the PD-R550. Came with all manuals for all parts used. Also came with cleats for the 105s.
> 
> Putting it together was easy for me because I had all the tools and stand. Great first experience with BD so far.


2014? They only have 53's in stock so I assume you got one of the last ones? I only ask that because thats all they had in that model for months was 53's.


----------



## mellowbob

Yes that's correct. I ordered a 53. However when I ordered it on 8/19, it had other options. I don't remember if it was 56 or 59.


----------



## froze

mellowbob said:


> Yes that's correct. I ordered a 53. However when I ordered it on 8/19, it had other options. I don't remember if it was 56 or 59.


cool bike, luckily they had your size...the only size they had! What kind of options did you order?


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## mellowbob

Sorry, I meant size options. The drop down menu only had 53 and some other size option which I can't recall.


----------



## rainxman

JonTargaryen said:


> According to BD (I was emailing them about their Ti bikes), they will have the 2014 Le Champion TI available in "the near future", and the 2014 Fantom Cross Team Ti in December. Both will have Ultegra 6800.


If you are referring to the Le champion TI SRAM ones, I think they will be available in the spring....at least according to this link - 
Save Up To 60% Off Road Bikes, Titanium Frame SRAM Rival Roadbikes - 2012 Motobecane Le Champion Ti Fire | Butted and multi-shaped titanium tubing with High modulus carbon fiber fork If you go to the availability it states so there.


----------



## JonTargaryen

They are here!  The 2014 LeChamp SL Ti Ultegra that is. Just ordered myself one.

FYI: All sizes are available but they all says low stock.


----------



## mattheis

froze said:


> I understand, and I have ridden a Moto TI it was a really nice bike, for the money it's the best deal on the market, and there's been no complaints about the bike which is huge. The only other TI on the market that comes close to being a low costing ti is the Habanero, but that bike actually cost a little more than the Lynskey I got (without the options I specified) and the frame and fork are made in China instead of the USA, so I guess Habanero is making a huge profit on those bikes.
> 
> I would not have blinked an eye getting the Moto, and I could have upgraded the fork and headset later, or immediately and sell the original fork because the Enve 2.0 does make the bike handle better and feel more secure on the road. The fork on the Moto felt noodly which was the only downfall I could find with the Moto besides the headset. The other no big deal problem is that the Moto does weigh about a pound more than the Lynskey. My friend said BD claimed it weighed 16 pounds, his weighed 1 1/2 pounds more with Dura Ace whereas the Lynskey Peloton weighs 17.8 pounds with 105 and I supposedly have heavier wheels (we haven't weighed the wheels to see how much more).
> 
> But it was the disk brakes that killed the deal for me, even though I was waiting since December for my size to come too which irked me a little bit but not as much as the disk brakes did. If I was wanting a TI touring or cross bike and they said disk brakes I probably wouldn't not had cared? I don't know, but on a road bike it made no sense and I don't want to learn about the technology of those brakes, also they weigh more which isn't a big deal.


My 51cm '13 Sram Red weighed in at 15.9lbs out of the box without pedals. So I agree that the shimano equipped models are probably slightly heavier.
Anyone pick up a Fantom Cross w/disks yet? Itching for something new


----------



## mattheis

interesting update to the 2014 models:

_*NEW FRAME UPGRADES FOR 2014*
Power-Tapered Titanium head tubes and Tapered Steerer Carbon Fiber forks for surgically precise handling with plush vibration dampening High Modulus 3K Carbon legs_

You can definitely see the difference from the previous years frame. Does this REALLY help with control, or even worth the added weight? Also the top tube appears to be a different shape as well, tapers near the head tube and the circumference looks smaller as well.

Save Up To 60% Off Shimano Ultegra 6800 Road Bikes | Titanium Road Bikes | Roadbikes - 2014 Motobecane Le Champion SL Ti

Damn, now mine feels old already


----------



## mattheis

Road:









CX:


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Road:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CX:


I'm not frame builder so I could be mistaken, but your downtube on the road bike seems more beefy then the new one. And the top of your headtube has that extra band of thickness that for some reason they no longer have on the new one, which again being no expert in that sort of thing seems to be a better idea to have a bit more material at the top like they did on the bottom. My Lynskey comes with those bands top and bottom of the head tube so I think the reinforcement must be something worthwhile doing or Lynskey and other builders wouldn't be doing it either.

Of course I can't tell if one fork is better than the other but if you ever damage your current fork look into a Enve, I believe they're the best built fork in the business, and I think the only one built in America, but again I'm no expert on forks so there could be a couple of others that may be better, but at least it's made in America and not China with spotty quality control issues and for generics have no one to turn to if you have an issue.

So I wouldn't say your bike is now old!

I have remotely considered getting Lynskey touring bike but the only way I would ever do that is if I sold my two current touring bikes which probably isn't going to happen at this late stage in my life.


----------



## mattheis

Thanks Froze.. It was more of a joke than anything. Im more upset that Sram rolled out the 22, six months after the the "new red" was released.

It does look like they changed up the entire tubing... the downtube appears to be more circular in shape then oval.

I actually went with ritchey over enve for the fork (not installed yet). The wcs carbon forks are lighter than the enve2.0's and I couldnt justify the price of the 1.0., Also, I got the '14 wcs for under $300 :thumbsup:
matchy-matchy, Ive got ritchey carbon everywhere else, might as well stick with it.


----------



## froze

mattheis said:


> Thanks Froze.. It was more of a joke than anything. Im more upset that Sram rolled out the 22, six months after the the "new red" was released.
> 
> I actually went with ritchey over enve for the fork (not installed yet). The wcs carbon forks are lighter than the enve2.0's and I couldnt justify the price of the 1.0., Also, I got the '14 wcs for under $300 :thumbsup:
> matchy-matchy, Ive got ritchey carbon everywhere else, might as well stick with it.


Keep in mind that the Enve 2.0 is a stiff racing fork, it's something that became apparent when the two other people I know who own TI bikes (one has the Moto like yours but with Dura Ace, and the other a Serrota which is very expensive bike) rode each others bikes and we all said the Enve fork felt more sure footed than either of the other two. But some people don't like the firmness so the Enve 1.0 or the fork like you got is a bit more comfortable on longer rides but it doesn't bother me. The main reason I got the Enve 2.0 vs the 1.0 is because it's designed to handle a 275 pound rider instead of a 220 for the 1.0 (don't recall the exact weight capacity of either, Enve use to have it on their website)...I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to the durability of carbon, I only weigh 164 but since I am a skeptic I wanted a fork that was way over engineered for my needs! And the cost of the weight difference was only 35 grams, not sure how only 35 grams could make such a huge difference in weight carrying capacity though.

Enve is expensive but it only cost me $225 for the 2.0 because I got a swapped deal on my new bike, they gave me the cost of the factory installed fork and applied it towards the Enve and the difference was what I paid. I did the same thing with other stuff too.

Anyway the Ritchey fork is not going to be as stiff as the 2.0 which if you're not racing, and not demanding performance out of it, and don't weigh a lot then that fork will be fine.


----------



## bbarnett51

Sorry to bring up an old thread. I've been shopping around and found several bikes locally that I like and I want to support local shops BUT I can't find any reason not to buy MB Ti other than supporting local. I'm basically settling for the sake of my lbs.

I understand the skeptics with MB carbon but I'm not sure how I could go wrong with their Ti option. Not to mention I can't find a bad review. I'm torn


----------



## froze

bbarnett51 said:


> Sorry to bring up an old thread. I've been shopping around and found several bikes locally that I like and I want to support local shops BUT I can't find any reason not to buy MB Ti other than supporting local. I'm basically settling for the sake of my lbs.
> 
> I understand the skeptics with MB carbon but I'm not sure how I could go wrong with their Ti option. Not to mention I can't find a bad review. I'm torn


Torn? The LBS isn't going to get you anything even close to the value of that MB TI bike, but you will spend about the same amount of money for that lot less bike; and TI is a lifetime frame material.

Those MB TI bikes have a really high regard for from people that own them. I was going to buy one myself after test riding a couple of friends TI bikes, one a MB and the other a Serotta, the Serotta was nicer but not even close to being $4,000 more nice! But I incurred a problem with BD, I went to order one and they were out of stock in my size in all models (I wanted the Ultegra version), I e-mailed BD around Oct 20012 and Mike (I think that was his name) said they would be getting more in Jan, so I waited, none came in; I emailed again in Feb and told they would be in on Mar, none came in; so I got tired of waiting and bought a Lynskey I found on sale. It wasn't until May of 2014 BD finally got a limited stock of TI bikes. As much as I like my Lynskey I would have rather paid about $800 less and got the MB!!

The best price options currently in the market for TI bikes is the MB LeChamp SL TI bike for the lowest cost; followed by the Lynskey Peloton for upgradeability before purchase IF purchased through Adrenalin bikes, and second lowest costing TI bike. I am in way glad I got the Lynskey over the MB because I was able to swap to upgrade, but I'm a tightwad and would have rather paid $800 less!! So I would say if you want the lowest costing TI bike get the MB, if you want to do some swapping of components and get a slightly better frame get the Lynskey Peloton or the Lynskey Rouleur if you want a more aggressive geometry over either the MB or the Peloton, or the Lynskey Viale if you want a commuting or light touring type of bike, but get the through Adrenalin Bikes if you want the ability to swap components before getting it.

One maybe maybe not important note, the Lynskey Peloton and Viale bikes are capable of using a 700c x 28 tire, the 2012 MB model would only accept a 25 in the rear and 23 in the front, not sure if the new models will accept 25 all around but I'm pretty sure (but not positive) they will not accept a 28. There is a $800 difference between the MB with Ultegra vs the Lynskey with 105; remember though I got mine on sale so my $800 difference was with a highly upgraded Enve 2.0 fork, and a highly upgraded Cane Creek 110 headset, Ultegra RD, slightly more aero Shimano RS500 silver series wheels, Dura Ace cables, and Speedplay stainless Frog pedals. 

Best of luck in your decision, for me it would be no brainer.


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## mattheis

The thread is only 5 days old... 

This is next on my list: 2015 Motobecane Fly Titanium 27.5 / 650B

If you know your size and the dimensions you're looking for... go for it. I would rather spend $2300 over $7200 on a Trek Superfly 9.9 SL XTR any day. Like a cx bike, it's going to get banged up and beat to hell, save your money on replacement components.

As for the LBS's, I am a regular at atlest 10 shops in my neighborhood and sometimes volunteer in the service dept on the weekends. I buy all my accessories, clothing, tools, and my wife's bikes from them. If I dont have the correct tool or knowledge to have something installed, I dont hesitate to drop off my moto bikes, and usually they are amazed at the quality and component sets for the price, so to each his own.


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## pc0

Just received some information I thought I'd share -
For any holdouts like me who were waiting for the next iteration of the Ti Heat (SRAM version), that model has been canceled. Also, doesn't look like the LeChamp Ti will have any incoming stock any time soon either. 

This is really unfortunate, as I'm not sure I want to increase my budget $700 for the SL version


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## mattheis

A couple updates


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## froze

mattheis said:


> A couple updates



LOL, why would you put Boardman decals on a Motobecane? See this: Save Up to 60% Off Road Titanium framesets - Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti Talk about a fake bike, you should strip off the Motobecane wing emblem and see if you can sell it for twice what you paid for it!!


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## mattheis

...Because its my last name. Im not trying to FAKE a chris boardman, Sorry.


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## froze

mattheis said:


> ...Because its my last name. Im not trying to FAKE a chris boardman, Sorry.


That's too bad, I thought it was very funny! I really did!!


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## mattheis

I had the decals made to match a jersey I designed for a charity ride to sponsor my dad. Chill the f*ck out, it was temporary.


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