# ToC: What's with the horrible video



## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

Seems like almost all the video coming off the motorcycles is horrible. It's like watching youtube on a dial up connection.

In this day and age is it really that hard for NBC sports or Amgen to figure out how to do video of a bike race? You'd think this was their first rodeo. It's not like they were in the mountains or anything. Wide open flat land with a cloudless blue sky...not impressed.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

As I recall, there was some pretty bad video last year as well. Strange they can do this right in Europe but not in the U.S., wonder why?


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

LostViking said:


> As I recall, there was some pretty bad video last year as well. Strange they can do this right in Europe but not in the U.S., wonder why?


Not enough interest to make the effort.


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## cale262 (Apr 28, 2010)

bayAreaDude said:


> Not enough interest to make the effort.



You'd figure with all the big names in this years TOC they'd have some interest... Makes the organizers look very amateurish to the rest of the world.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

cale262 said:


> You'd figure with all the big names in this years TOC they'd have some interest... Makes the organizers look very amateurish to the rest of the world.


There's interest, but it's minuscule compared to popular sports that non athletes in the states watch. I live in CA and don't know anyone other than cyclists and their families who are watching this. American armchair sports fans watch football and no resources are spared in production. If you gave TOC a TDF sized production budget, you'd have crystal clear audio, riders miked, and crazy colored lines galore - maybe even a few robots wrestling with lasers.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

bayAreaDude said:


> There's interest, but it's minuscule compared to popular sports that non athletes in the states watch. I live in CA and don't know anyone other than cyclists and their families who are watching this. American armchair sports fans watch football and no resources are spared in production. If you gave TOC a TDF sized production budget, you'd have crystal clear audio, riders miked, and crazy colored lines galore - maybe even a few robots wrestling with lasers.


this, plus there's also this other race going on that's called the "the gyro" or something that seems to be more popular with this so called rest of world.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Always been crappy video, always will be. 

They don't need a TDF budget. I can't figure it would be all that much more to buy enough bandwidth to be able to transmit clear pictures. For the biggest cycling race in America, they sure do cheap out on the production.


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## L_Johnny (Jul 15, 2006)

Trying to get video on an android phone. No go.

The climbs today looked good. 

Maybe i'll try youtube later.


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

I watched the whole race last year and while all races suffer hiccups I don't recall seeing anything nearly as bad as stage one. Basically none of the video shot from the motorcycles was watchable. Constant stutter and freeze and slow motion. They kept switching back and forth from the helo to the ground and the air shots were the only thing watchable. This was a huge problem during the final circuits where you had trees blocking LoS from the air for large parts of the laps.

Super weak sauce for an event touted as america's best race.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Borderline unwatchable today.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

I agree. Super poor performance. At one point they were commentating with a bunch of still images.. They seem to be hellbent on spending energy on putting reporters on motorcycles and cameras on bikes... Just vide the whole thing from the air..


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## surfinguru (Jun 17, 2004)

Just watching today's stage and holy crap what's the deal? Are they shooting with cheap go-pro knock offs? It looks like the cameramen on the bike are having seizures and then add to that the constant choppy video and what you get is a total joke. Hey ToC, get your **** together!


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

You what's unwatchable?? Tyler Farrar ---rimshot :7:


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## cale262 (Apr 28, 2010)

El Scorcho said:


> You what's unwatchable?? Tyler Farrar ---rimshot :7:


Wrong race


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Strange. I think their stream is top notch. I was just commenting on it yesterday while watching it on wifi in my living room with my buddy after a ride. Maybe the resolution isn't full HD all the time from every camera but it never is really.

Basically I don't see any problem with the filming, delivery or stream in general. I have no break in video, no loss in quality, no desyncing of the audio, everything works perfect. Maybe I have a magic setup? I doubt it. I never saw any choppy video or commentating over still pictures or whatever.

Or maybe somehow my brain just immediately eliminates everything crap and all I see is wonder, haha.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Strange. I think their stream is top notch. I was just commenting on it yesterday while watching it on wifi in my living room with my buddy after a ride. Maybe the resolution isn't full HD all the time from every camera but it never is really.
> 
> Basically I don't see any problem with the filming, delivery or stream in general. I have no break in video, no loss in quality, no desyncing of the audio, everything works perfect. Maybe I have a magic setup? I doubt it. I never saw any choppy video or commentating over still pictures or whatever.
> 
> Or maybe somehow my brain just immediately eliminates everything crap and all I see is wonder, haha.


Is the stream from NBC Sports or a different provider?

I'm not sure the issues that they're having stem from budget so much as it's an unusual request for US cameramen and crews. That and they probably aren't using optimal equipment for the job. To me it just looks like poor execution and it's endemic to US cycling productions. The Nationals in Chattanooga last year couldn't be watched when they went on the climb due to LOS issues. That's not an exaggeration, they literally had to cut away and wait for the riders to come out of the trees before they could resume the video.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Strange. I think their stream is top notch. I was just commenting on it yesterday while watching it on wifi in my living room with my buddy after a ride. Maybe the resolution isn't full HD all the time from every camera but it never is really.
> 
> Basically I don't see any problem with the filming, delivery or stream in general. I have no break in video, no loss in quality, no desyncing of the audio, everything works perfect. Maybe I have a magic setup? I doubt it. I never saw any choppy video or commentating over still pictures or whatever.
> 
> Or maybe somehow my brain just immediately eliminates everything crap and all I see is wonder, haha.


You didn't get the Paul and Christian audio commentating on the race on top of the Schlanger interview with a rider?


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## Rich Gibson (Jul 26, 2013)

rufus said:


> You didn't get the Paul and Christian audio commentating on the race on top of the Schlanger interview with a rider?


Maybe I'm mixing the two up but isn't Phil doing most of the commentary? It seems like the few interjections by Paul were possibly from another location, like he was joining in remotely.

Rich


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

the stream I watch is on the amgen website, the tour tracker page I think.

I didn't catch them talking over an interview but then again I wasn't really intently watching it enough for that. There was a little but of bustle in the house and it was on in the living room. If I'm around later I'll try to watch it in the office and be critical of the production. Maybe I'm just used to terrible production.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Well the lack of quality isn't going to help garner any more interest, that's for sure. You'd think the network would want it fixed, because even though it's likely a transmission issue from the cameras, end-user watcher guy may think it's a problem with the whole feed and that makes the network look even worse. Really unwatchable, which is unfortunate.

I live in the Bay Area and have gotten to see the race live the last few years, what a hoot. This doesn't do it any justice.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

This is nothing compared to the Pro Cycling Challenge. That's completely unwatchable every year.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

Guod said:


> Is the stream from NBC Sports or a different provider?
> 
> I'm not sure the issues that they're having stem from budget so much as it's an unusual request for US cameramen and crews. That and they probably aren't using optimal equipment for the job. To me it just looks like poor execution and it's endemic to US cycling productions. The Nationals in Chattanooga last year couldn't be watched when they went on the climb due to LOS issues. That's not an exaggeration, they literally had to cut away and wait for the riders to come out of the trees before they could resume the video.



Video feed is usually pretty good...especially from the race in Idaho last year? Given that NBC Sports is in 1080i, it seems like some of the helicopter footage is in "standard-def". As far as the "Go-Pro" mention, it looks like the "Go-Pro", or equivalent cameras, used on the "peloton bikes" for the Giro coverage, seems to be putting out better quality images, being fed overseas no less, than what is coming off some of the main cameras for the ToC. Kinda sux when watching on one of the "last of the really great Panny plasmas".


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Ugh, today was awful, even on the flats - wtf?!


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

surfinguru said:


> Just watching today's stage and holy crap what's the deal? Are they shooting with cheap go-pro knock offs? It looks like the cameramen on the bike are having seizures and then add to that the constant choppy video and what you get is a total joke. Hey ToC, get your **** together!


Looks like they're using the "Shimano" cameras on the bikes:


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

IIRC the pictures are provided by ASO staff under contract to AEG.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

I don't think the pictures, or who's taking them are the problem. The problem stems further up the line, in the bandwidth they use to transmit them. They either compress the signal too much for transmission, or they need to purchase more bandwidth.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Usually the jitteriness and stalling is caused by breaks in the VHF relay transmissions bouncing between the cameras, the overhead helicopters/airplanes and the intermediate receiving vehicles back on the ground. 










Here is how it is done for the TDF How the Tour de France is Broadcast To the World | CyclingTips

Obviously the TDF has a much bigger budget for more relay vehicles and better equipment, hence why the coverage is better.


.


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## SlowJoeCrow (Sep 3, 2009)

I definitely recall the talk over problem during stage 3. I think the issue is poor line of sight from the motos to the uplink, since the Tour of Utah and the more exposed parts of the USA Pro Challenge were better quality because there was better line of sight. At least we got good video of Janier Acevedo and Rohan Dennis 1-2 punching Wiggins.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

The ToC with Wiggins and Cav vs "the field" is like going to a AA minor league baseball game to watch Cabrera and Posey on a rehab stint. Wgaf.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

JSR said:


> IIRC the pictures are provided by ASO staff under contract to AEG.


You sure about that? I know they used to get ASO production for TOC and used to have that level of quality but it sure looks like they're rolling their own at this point. Pure crap and that's probably what we can expect for USPro too. Sad!


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

One would think that the US could simply adopt the European method of reporting on cycling, between the video and the commentary it is tough to watch. IE while Cav is a great sprinter, should he be the focus for a TT?

Thankfully I get the Giro on BEIN, great coverage once again with commentators with some wit.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

YB1 said:


> You sure about that? I know they used to get ASO production for TOC and used to have that level of quality but it sure looks like they're rolling their own at this point. Pure crap and that's probably what we can expect for USPro too. Sad!


No, I'm not sure. It was the case a few years ago, but it may have changed.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Wide open expanses and flat roads, and the picture was still freezing up today. 

I think they brought the ASO group in last year, or a couple years ago, but not sure if that's who they're still using. Whoever it is, it's not a good product.


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## Rich Gibson (Jul 26, 2013)

rufus said:


> Wide open expanses and flat roads, and the picture was still freezing up today.
> 
> I think they brought the ASO group in last year, or a couple years ago, but not sure if that's who they're still using. Whoever it is, it's not a good product.


Same thing yesterday; horrid televising. Pixelation, break ups and frame freezes. BEin is making NBC look like amateurs.

Rich


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## Marzo92 (Apr 15, 2010)

*Poor Coverage*



Rich Gibson said:


> Same thing yesterday; horrid televising. Pixelation, break ups and frame freezes. BEin is making NBC look like amateurs.
> 
> Rich


Send in the drones


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Rich Gibson said:


> Same thing yesterday; horrid televising. Pixelation, break ups and frame freezes. BEin is making NBC look like amateurs.
> 
> Rich


You mean RAI Sport. There's been plenty of picture breakup and loss of signal during the Giro so far, but somehow, it just never rises to the level of annoyance that the TOC issues do. Either because it snaps right back quickly, or their directors jump to another shot quicker. 

I was wondering if it was just me, cause for the most part today, the TOC pictures seemed a lot better. But then they got higher on the mountain, and it all fell to crap again.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

I think I owe my DVR a beer and an apology. I thought the problems were on my end. I often times have pixellation issues on DVR.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

what are you guys talking about? I fast-forward through some stuff (between Giro and ToC, who has 6 hours every day to watch every minute of coverage) but what I see - NBC Sports in HD, is excellent, high quality coverage. Are you talking about their iphone/ipad app or online tour tracker coverage?


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

Motorcycle/copter feeds, for ToC on TV, seem to be shot in less than 1080i, and/or exhibit a lot of compression artifacts. Riders faces, the road, trees show that the images are far less sharp than say, "interview cameras". Race footage also not as clear as the NBCSN "ticker" at the bottom of the screen. 

Watching thru more Giro footage, some of it is looking kind of blurry as well, but it is coming from overseas, and I'm not sure that 1080i. is the video standard in the EU.


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## redcon1 (Jul 22, 2008)

I agree that the motorcycle feed is almost unwatchable at times due to the stuttering/freeze/pixilation; they cut to the copter feed and it's generally OK.

Hey NBC sports - fix the motorcycle equipment and uplink!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

colnagoG60 said:


> Motorcycle/copter feeds, for ToC on TV, seem to be shot in less than 1080i, and/or exhibit a lot of compression artifacts. Riders faces, the road, trees show that the images are far less sharp than say, "interview cameras". Race footage also not as clear as the NBCSN "ticker" at the bottom of the screen.
> 
> Watching thru more Giro footage, some of it is looking kind of blurry as well, but it is coming from overseas, and I'm not sure that 1080i. is the video standard in the EU.


British Eurosport streams 720p online if what I get is any judge. Not sure what they send to other broadcasters. If the graphics are any indicator, it isn't the old ASO that is doing the video. All the cheesy graphics and caps-lock fonts scream "Universal Sports" to me.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It's almost like watching the scrambled pron channel back in the day.


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## plantdude (Sep 29, 2011)

Marzo92 said:


> Send in the drones


That's my thought. Seems like a perfect job for small drones. No helo noises bothering the riders, less motorcycles with cameras on the road. This would even allow for the "wiggo-cam" and other similar dedicated cameras for the various groups on the road and key athletes.


Seems like a better use for them then spying on and bombing third world countries...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

plantdude said:


> That's my thought. Seems like a perfect job for small drones. No helo noises bothering the riders, less motorcycles with cameras on the road. This would even allow for the "wiggo-cam" and other similar dedicated cameras for the various groups on the road and key athletes.
> 
> 
> Seems like a better use for them then spying on and bombing third world countries...


I'm sure a few people here would like a drone to take out Lance.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I'm sure a few people here would like a drone to take out Lance.


Can't leave it alone, can you? Obsess much?


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It's almost like watching the scrambled pron channel back in the day.


Just not as interesting...


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

The uspcc is ridiculous. Two years ago when it came through town, I was downtown Boulder with tens of thousands of people, booths, big screen tvs everywhere, and you couldn't watch the feed. It was embarrassing.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Lance who?


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

Is it in Greece ?


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

Blair Witch Project style.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

Today was absolutely unbelievable. Horrible especially once in Pasadena. How many times did Phil apologize?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

I hope you are referencing this:
2014 ToC Flyby on Vimeo

(The rant below is not directed at you directly, btw)

The problem with "a little picture breakup" (spoken in a voice of Paul Sherwen) is not so much the source of the footage, or the TV networks or even the race organizers, but the transmission - the signal goes from the moto to the helicopter, to another helicopter or airplane up to the satellite, and then down to the networks for redistribution. The whole chain is miraculous if you think about it. Photons converted to electrons on the fast moving moto, converted back to photons beamed up to space, back to earth and then fiber-fed to your home (with a dozen more photon-electron conversions) with millions of pixels consisting of liquid crystal molecules re-aligned hundreds of times a second just so you can experience the race as if you were right there, 2 feet in front of Peter Sagan as he ridicules Thor the God of Thunder by easing up and doing some weird gesture?

And so any bottlenecks along the way (like racing through big cities with tall buildings which believe it or not may block the signal, or in dense fog, or rain, or through tunnels, or behind mountain passes, etc. - may cause the signal to not get to you instantly, causing you to miss seconds, or god forbid, even dozens of seconds of the 3-hour coverage.

On the other hand, you could keep in mind that you are watching a bicycle race, live, in real time, right as it happens (but you can record it too, in case it is too inconvenient for your majesty, and you prefer to watch it later at your leisure as your schedule allows it - but please make sure to go on RBR forums, read all the posts and complain about "spoiler alerts" before you decide to watch the stage - while fast-forwarding through the super-annoying commercials of the sponsors who paid for the TV or the race you are watching in real time, including for the beaming up part that you are whining about), thousands of miles away, from multiple locations, often miles apart, all traveling at 20-30mph through literally (and I use the word "literally" figuratively) the middle of nowhere, over hundreds of miles with unpredictable developments at any moment, new locations every day, often with widely varying terrain and elevation, regardless of weather, in High-Def (what is this, 2009?), without leaving your living room, with former professional cyclists telling you EXACTLY what is going on without repeating themselves (god forbid they make a mistake - even once, after talking non-stop for like 5 hours - try it some time!) - but if the live feed gets interrupted or gets marginally pixellated for even a few seconds or the helicopter shots get obscured by the trees (who needs those things in a city of Pasadena anyways?! Couldn't they cut those annoying things down for the race?) - we all collectively freak out and rush to the RBR interwebs (and what would happen if those interwebs are slow or unavailable right that second?) to complain about having to sit there, watching the race in 720p, instead of 1080i, and interrupted for at least 10 seconds, like some sort of wild animals or TV viewers circa 2007?

Are there any other human beings on this planet that experienced such horrible indignity, hardship and mistreatment as us?

Someone ought to sue Tour of California for this inhumane treatment of their viewers, totally against Geneva Convention.

Everyone calm down and watch this:

Louis C.K. Video | Comedy Central Stand-Up | The Miracle of Flight


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rufus said:


> Can't leave it alone, can you? Obsess much?


No, just like raising the blood pressure of angry RBR members. This is where you and a few other members should try to gang up and/or throw out some personal attacks.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I hope you are referencing this:
> 2014 ToC Flyby on Vimeo
> 
> (The rant below is not directed at you directly, btw)
> ...


Holy apologists, batman.

Why are you ignoring the fact that ToC can't even maintain a consistent camera uplink in barren semi-arid semi-desert plains with no mountains or obstructions?

It is an amazing bit of engineering...but let's face it. Everyone except ToC knows how to do it. Giro, Tour, Vuelta, spring classics...unless the weather is absolute **** in tall mountains, all the other races are able to get a picture. ToC's broadcast is amateur hour. That is why people are piling on ToC for being screwups. Because everyone else manages to make it work...and ToC can't even keep a picture in empty desert.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

Marc said:


> Holy apologists, batman.
> 
> Why are you ignoring the fact that ToC can't even maintain a consistent camera uplink in barren semi-arid semi-desert plains with no mountains or obstructions?
> 
> It is an amazing bit of engineering...but let's face it. Everyone except ToC knows how to do it. Giro, Tour, Vuelta, spring classics...unless the weather is absolute **** in tall mountains, all the other races are able to get a picture. ToC's broadcast is amateur hour. That is why people are piling on ToC for being screwups. Because everyone else manages to make it work...and ToC can't even keep a picture in empty desert.



yep. The Giro has experienced those "bottlenecks" also, but for the most part, it doesn't impact the broadcast that much. But the TOC is another case entirely. If your idea of "watching a live cycling race" means watching a series of still pictures shudder along, then the TOC is the race for you.

The major issue about this, and why it is being complained about so much, is the TOC organizers are continually patting themselves on the back for putting on "the best race in America" and the hyperbole even goes so far as to compare it to some of the other big races around the world, and claim they're right up there with them. Well, if that's the case, and the TOC wants to be taken in the same breath as the Tour de France, the Giro or the Vuelta as a world class cycling event, then they need to produce a product for viewing that is worthy of that world class status.


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## Geezer (Feb 5, 2004)

It's not just the motorcycles. They can't keep a shot from the helicopter either.
I wonder if NBC is using their stuff or they contracted out. It looks cheap and the Tour does not deserve crap.
Somebody needs to re-think next year's coverage.


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## Rich Gibson (Jul 26, 2013)

Crap is crap. A tablet is a wonder of technolony as is my brand new Sunset Forester. I expect both to run without malfunctioning and they do. NBC's presentation of the TOC technologically was substandard; it should be an embarrassment to the production crew and NBC sports.

Rich


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

rufus said:


> The major issue about this, and why it is being complained about so much, is the TOC organizers are continually patting themselves on the back for putting on "the best race in America" and the hyperbole even goes so far as to compare it to some of the other big races around the world, and claim they're right up there with them. Well, if that's the case, and the TOC wants to be taken in the same breath as the Tour de France, the Giro or the Vuelta as a world class cycling event, then they need to produce a product for viewing that is worthy of that world class status.


Exactly.


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## Rich Gibson (Jul 26, 2013)

What you don't see is high quality cycling coverage at NBC sports. And no, I'm watching on a brand new LG smart 1080P tv.
When a scene freezes or turns into a huge impressionist style field of square pixels it's lousy coverage.
Rich


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## plantdude (Sep 29, 2011)

Not sure if anyone else noticed it, but at the beginning of stage 8, at 43.5 mi to go (right at the beginning of the coverage) there's a little white personal drone/copter in the air behind the riders with a camera on it. Probably just a gopro from a spectator, but maybe this will indeed be the future...


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## igotyofire (Nov 27, 2011)

Try watching this....It is pretty bad , I would rather have it recorded and uploaded later than to put up with footage that bad, something tells me next years coverage is going to be rethought, Quite embarassing to see this come out of America to the rest of the world if you ask me.


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## iclypso (Jul 6, 2011)

While watching this ToC, I was trying to think of which race I had watched with coverage as poor as this. Couldn't, for the life of me, remember what it is: not the Tour of Turkey, Switzerland, Oman, Down Under, or Romandie, not any of the classics, none of the grand tours.

It just came to me: the only other race that struggles with video to this extent is the Pro Clycling Challenge in CO. What are the international carriers doing that NBC is not?


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

55x11 said:


> ...Couldn't they cut those annoying things down for the race?) - we all collectively freak out and rush to the RBR interwebs (and what would happen if those interwebs are slow or unavailable right that second?) to complain about having to sit there, watching the race in 720p, instead of 1080i, and interrupted for at least 10 seconds, like some sort of wild animals or TV viewers circa 2007?
> 
> Are there any other human beings on this planet that experienced such horrible indignity, hardship and mistreatment as us?...


I for one am happy for any cycling coverage on TV, given that I came up in a time when the only way to follow anything other than the TdF was via cycling mags, or papers...and the TdF coverage was limited to a BS, broken up 1/2 hour a week during Wide World of Sports. 

However while picture "breakup" and "loss" is to be expected, given the coverage methods, resolution, PQ, and the amount of bandwidth used is another issue, separate from what you described. The images "from some cameras" were noticeably "fuzzier" than other NBC Sports broadcasts "from this year". I still have NBC's coverage from the race in Idaho from last year, and PQ was much better than this year's ToC. So I definitely think that something is "different"...disappointing, yes, enough to write a letter, "I" don't think so.


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