# Trans Athlete outed by coach



## Doctor Falsetti

Transgender teen outed by wrestling coach, mom says - Cincinnati News, Weather, Sports from FOX19 NOW-WXIX

It is never OK to out a trans person. Only hard core trolls do it. 

Deplorable.


----------



## crit_boy

Not sure the coach handled it correctly. However, I don't think a minor female should change in the same locker room as minor males.

Wish i was in high school again, I could have been a male self identifying as a lesbian female.


----------



## velodog

Pre or post surgery should have something to do with locker room usage.

Pre surgery is gonna get outed if using the same locker room, and while he may identify as a boy, there is gonna be a locker room full of boys looking at a girl.

One how or another things were bound to come to a head.


----------



## Local Hero

It's a weird time when telling the truth creates so much scandal. 

There are potential safety issues having someone with a vagina change in the boy's locker room. That isn't to say that this coach handled things correctly. It sounds like he screwed the pooch and will probably pay for it with his job. 

This trans athlete thing isn't going away any time soon, is it?


----------



## Local Hero

crit_boy said:


> Wish i was in high school again, I could have been a male self identifying as a lesbian female.


It's not too late to go back. 

This 52-Year-Old Man Lives As A 6-Year-Old Gi | The Daily Caller 






velodog said:


> Pre or post surgery should have something to do with locker room usage.
> 
> Pre surgery is gonna get outed if using the same locker room, and while he may identify as a boy, there is gonna be a locker room full of boys looking at a girl.
> 
> One how or another things were bound to come to a head.


The trend is just hormones, no cutting or snipping. Sometimes a M-F will get breast implants. 

It's weird to give a little boy drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility. It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys because they are confused. But if some parents do decide to mutilate the little boy's genitals, we are not allowed to question it. Also, there are weird laws that say a child can transition without the knowledge of their parents -- so at times the parents are not even allowed to question it. 

Back to the balls: That is one of the main issues -- female athletes with male genitals (testosterone producing testicles) and three times the testosterone of the average woman, racing with women. Question the fairness and you're a troll and bigot


----------



## kiwisimon

maybe sports should be treated like reproduction. Just cause you feel and identify as a gender it doesn't entitle you to play ANY sport you like. Just like I can't choose to bear children. Why not find a sport where you don't have to get undressed in front of everyone else? Life lesson, you can't always get what you want. Rugby would be happy to have her play with the girls or boys. Girls might be better in America.


----------



## No Time Toulouse

Local Hero said:


> ...Sometimes a M-F will get breast implants.
> ...


I think you'll find that after a few months of hormones, they'll grow by themselves. At least that's what the 2 M-F transgendered women I know say...

This isn't going to go away, so it's probably time that all schools make some sort of non-conforming facilities available.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

crit_boy said:


> Not sure the coach handled it correctly. However, I don't think a minor female should change in the same locker room as minor males.
> 
> Wish i was in high school again, I could have been a male self identifying as a lesbian female.


The coach broke the rules. Some weirdos get glee from outing, and harassing, Trans people. 

The majority of Americans live in a state where there are laws protecting people's ability to use the restroom that aligns with their gender. Most large companies have similar rules. The issue is never the trans kid, but with weird trolls who like to harass them.


----------



## exracer

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Transgender teen outed by wrestling coach, mom says - Cincinnati News, Weather, Sports from FOX19 NOW-WXIX
> 
> It is never OK to out a trans person. Only hard core trolls do it.
> 
> Deplorable.


You don't get out much do you?


----------



## Local Hero

kiwisimon said:


> maybe sports should be treated like reproduction. Just cause you feel and identify as a gender it doesn't entitle you to play ANY sport you like. Just like I can't choose to bear children. Why not find a sport where you don't have to get undressed in front of everyone else? Life lesson, you can't always get what you want. Rugby would be happy to have her play with the girls or boys. Girls might be better in America.


Some trolls are brazen enough to ask: 

Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity disorders of children?



No Time Toulouse said:


> I think you'll find that after a few months of hormones, they'll grow by themselves. At least that's what the 2 M-F transgendered women I know say...


I don't doubt it. At the same time, I think what I said about surgery is still true.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> It's a weird time when telling the truth creates so much scandal.


The bully coach who outed the young trans kid appreciates your support at this difficult time. 

The kid is a kid. The is nothing "weird" about his desire to live a normal life. What is weird is the coach ignoring the rules, letting the kid be harassed, and not just outing him but shaming him for who he is. 

Deplorable.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Some trolls are brazen enough to ask:
> 
> Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity disorders of children?
> 
> 
> I don't doubt it. At the same time, I think what I said about surgery is still true.


Do you check the genitals of every person you meet? If yes how many times have you been arrested?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

exracer said:


> You don't get out much do you?


You have nothing to add to the discussion so you go with an insult?


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The bully coach who outed the young trans kid appreciates your support at this difficult time.


Don't let your feelings get in the way of reality. After saying what you quoted I went on to say: 

That isn't to say that this coach handled things correctly. It sounds like he screwed the pooch and will probably pay for it with his job.​
In light of what I actually wrote, it is completely at odds with reality to suggest that I support the coach. I don't know how you overlooked my words, as they were in black and white less than one inch away from the words you quoted. Maybe you skipped them on purpose and quoted one sentence out of many in an attempt to score a cheap point and say that I am supporting a bully coach. 

Meh.

If a person believes in what they write, why resort to these tactics?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> It's weird to give a little boy drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility. It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys because they are confused. But if some parents do decide to mutilate the little boy's genitals, we are not allowed to question it.


So many lies in one post. 

No, puberty blocker do not cause lifelong sterility. The right wing echo chamber pushes this lie but it is indeed a lie. 

The American Academy of Pediatrics (2015) and the American Psychiatric Association (Byne et al., 2012), classifies these blockers as fully reversible. These are safe medications that have been in use among both trans and cis children for decades now.

Genital surgery on "little boys" is almost unheard of. Only people stuck in the right wing echo chamber believe this is some widespread thing.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> So many lies in one post.
> 
> No, puberty blocker do not cause lifelong sterility. The right wing echo chamber pushes this lie but it is indeed a lie.
> 
> The American Academy of Pediatrics (2015) and the American Psychiatric Association (Byne et al., 2012), classifies these blockers as fully reversible. These are safe medications that have been in use among both trans and cis children for decades now.
> 
> Genital surgery on "little boys" is almost unheard of. Only people stuck in the right wing echo chamber believe this is some widespread thing.


It's as thought you just read little bits and pieces and then respond to some caricature of what I wrote.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> In light of what I actually wrote


You actually wrote



Local Hero said:


> It's a weird time when telling the truth creates so much scandal.


Most reasonable people can see that outing a trans kid is more than just "Telling the truth". That is why it is expressly forbidden. You have tried to minimize the coaches actions by saying he was just "Telling the truth". 

The Ohio High School Athletic Association has a clear transgender policy that states



> "The legitimate privacy interests of all student-athletes should be protected and the medical privacy of transgender students should be preserved."


The coach was not just "Telling the truth" he was breaking the state rules and opening the kid for harassment.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> It's as thought you just read little bits and piece and then respond to some caricature of what I wrote.


Your post makes no sense. 

You clearly claimed that puberty blockers create life long sterility. This is a lie. You also claimed that little boys are getting their balls cut off because they are confused. This is also a lie. 

Pointing out your obvious lies is not a caricature.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Your post makes no sense.
> 
> You clearly claimed that puberty blockers create life long sterility. This is a lie. You also claimed that little boys are getting their balls cut off because they are confused. This is also a lie.
> 
> Pointing out your obvious lies is not a caricature.


No worries. It isn't super important that you understand and agree with my posts.


----------



## feh

Local Hero said:


> Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity *disorder*s of children?


The fact you refer to such cases as disorders tells us everything we need to know about your state of mind.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

feh said:


> The fact you refer to such cases as disorders tells us everything we need to know about your state of mind.


Yup. and pushing the lie that Trans kids are just "confused" and outing trans kids is just "telling the truth"

Deplorable


----------



## Fredrico

crit_boy said:


> Not sure the coach handled it correctly. However, I don't think a minor female should change in the same locker room as minor males.
> 
> Wish i was in high school again, I could have been a male self identifying as a lesbian female.


It would be hard, though, as the bulge in your pants became larger. :ihih:


----------



## Fredrico

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yup. and pushing the lie that Trans kids are just "confused" and outing trans kids is just "telling the truth"
> 
> Deplorable


How can a pre-pubescent kid really know which gender he wants to identify with when he grows up? How do his parents know? What if he or she changes his/her mind when they've lived longer and learned more about life? What would be wrong with saying to little Johnny, "Wait and see what nature provides! If you can't work with that, then think about medical solutions." 

Individuals vary quite a lot on how far they go medically to meet role expectations. As you've said, most take hormones to elicit the appropriate feelings, but get by without genital surgery. So guys who identify as women still have penises and testicles, but use the equipment differently. Have no idea what women do transitioning to men. Testosterone therapy isn't going to drop the ovaries into the scrotum to form testicles. It'll enlarge the clitoris, though. Would this not preserve feeling like a woman?

Its also interesting to note none of the trans pictured are flaming males or flaming females. A bit like many gays, they dress conservatively, staying "invisible" to those who would persecute them. I don't think I'd know one from another. I'll pay respects entirely based on looks, although like the wrestler above, sometimes that may be challenging.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Fredrico said:


> How can a pre-pubescent kid really know which gender he wants to identify with when he grows up? How do his parents know? What if he or she changes his/her mind when they've lived longer and learned more about life? What would be wrong with saying to little Johnny, "Wait and see what nature provides! If you can't work with that, then think about medical solutions."
> 
> Individuals vary quite a lot on how far they go medically to meet role expectations. As you've said, most take hormones to elicit the appropriate feelings, but get by without genital surgery. So guys who identify as women still have penises and testicles, but use the equipment differently. Have no idea what women do transitioning to men. Testosterone therapy isn't going to drop the ovaries into the scrotum to form testicles. It'll enlarge the clitoris, though. Would this not preserve feeling like a woman?
> 
> Its also interesting to note none of the trans pictured are flaming males or flaming females. A bit like many gays, they dress conservatively, staying "invisible" to those who would persecute them. I don't think I'd know one from another. I'll pay respects entirely based on looks, although like the wrestler above, sometimes that may be challenging.


Waiting and seeing is a key part of transitioning. 

Most doctors will not allow any hormones until someone has lived in their correct gender for 18 months. Kids are given even more time, in fact puberty blockers are used to give them more time. Unlike the lies that some have posted puberty blockers are not irreversible. They do not render someone sterile. Genital surgery for minors is almost unheard of. 

You are correct that most trans people are "stealth". Most are not activists. Like the kid who the coach outed they just want to live their lives.


----------



## SauronHimself

feh said:


> The fact you refer to such cases as disorders tells us everything we need to know about your state of mind.


The word _disorder_ does not automatically imply a negative connotation in the psychiatric sense. If you believe it does, revisit the definition of a mental disorder.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3101504/

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

The Hanlon's Razor approach would suggest that you are simply mistaken, but given your post history it's probably something else.


----------



## bradkay

The medical term is Gender Dysphoria, not Gender Disorder. The dysphoria occurs when the perception of one's self differs from the development of the body. It shows up very early in a child's development, though most parents pass it off as a "phase" and don't encourage it (some actively discouraging the child from trying to understand these feelings). This has led to a very high suicide rate among trans children, but studies have shown that when these children receive support and love from their families and peers that suicide rate is no higher than that of any other children. 

Here is an excellent article about the subject, where a little transgender girl was praying for death rather than to continue as she was born and how her southern, Christian mother came to terms with raising a transgender child amid her faith:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...d-bathroom-rights_us_58b5b5b6e4b060480e0c4393


----------



## feh

SauronHimself said:


> The word _disorder_ does not automatically imply a negative connotation in the psychiatric sense. If you believe it does, revisit the definition of a mental disorder.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3101504/
> 
> https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/what-is-mental-illness
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder
> 
> The Hanlon's Razor approach would suggest that you are simply mistaken, but given your post history it's probably something else.


I don't have a negative connotation with the word disorder. I was pointing out LH's use of the term, which is incorrect.

So, you're probably simply mistaken about my post, but given your post history it's probably something else.


----------



## Guest

bradkay said:


> The medical term is Gender Dysphoria, not Gender Disorder. The dysphoria occurs when the perception of one's self differs from the development of the body. It shows up very early in a child's development, though most parents pass it off as a "phase" and don't encourage it (some actively discouraging the child from trying to understand these feelings). This has led to a very high suicide rate among trans children, but studies have shown that when these children receive support and love from their families and peers that suicide rate is no higher than that of any other children.
> 
> Here is an excellent article about the subject, where a little transgender girl was praying for death rather than to continue as she was born and how her southern, Christian mother came to terms with raising a transgender child amid her faith:
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...d-bathroom-rights_us_58b5b5b6e4b060480e0c4393



One doesn't have to choose between suicide and transitioning.

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/11/07/a-teen-desister-tells-her-story/

This teen's experience is worth the read.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

frons said:


> One doesn't have to choose between suicide and transitioning.
> 
> https://4thwavenow.com/2017/11/07/a-teen-desister-tells-her-story/
> 
> This teen's experience is worth the read.


Deplorable website. 

No, Trans kids are not confused, it is not a trend, they are not confused and they did not become trans after seeing cartoons on a website. ut:

The only thing true there is the blogger's admission that 


> Most of the voices in the media and in medicine are in opposition to my views.


Fringe


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Why was this moved to doping forum? It has nothing to do with doping. 

A coach broke the rules in order to embarrass and harass a kid. Deplorable


----------



## thesmokingman

Local Hero said:


> It's a weird time when telling the truth creates so much scandal.


It's none of your business nor is it your truth to tell. I smell a serious lawsuit never mind the regulatory implications of breaking HIPAA laws.


----------



## Guest

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Deplorable website.
> 
> No, Trans kids are not confused, it is not a trend, they are not confused and they did not become trans after seeing cartoons on a website. ut:
> 
> The only thing true there is the blogger's admission that
> 
> 
> Fringe


Nearly everything in that post is suspect.

Transgenderism and the Social Construction of Diagnosis - Quillette


----------



## bradkay

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Why was this moved to doping forum? It has nothing to do with doping.
> 
> A coach broke the rules in order to embarrass and harass a kid. Deplorable


I am in full agreement with the god doctor here. This thread was about the social aspect of dealing with transgender folk and has nothing to do with doping.


----------



## bradkay

frons said:


> One doesn't have to choose between suicide and transitioning.
> 
> https://4thwavenow.com/2017/11/07/a-teen-desister-tells-her-story/
> 
> This teen's experience is worth the read.


"conversion therapy" is responsible for an increase in the rate of suicide among trans teenagers. If you love your religion or preacher more than you love your child, then by all means send that child to conversion therapy. This child in the article is in a significant minority - very few children sent through this successfully "convert" to cisgender. Many - more than those who don't go through it but are still unsupported by their parents - commit suicide. Most others learn to hide their true selves and live an unhappy and unfulfilled life. But at least their parents didn't have to question their religious teachings, so all is well - right? 

My guess is that Frons did not read the article I posted.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

frons said:


> Nearly everything in that post is suspect.
> 
> Transgenderism and the Social Construction of Diagnosis - Quillette


It is filled with lies that will seriously damage trans kids lives. It is on par with the Anti-vaxxer BS. 

Fortunately the medical community provides enough information people can realize the propaganda pushed by nuts like that is extremely dangerous.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

bradkay said:


> "conversion therapy" is responsible for an increase in the rate of suicide among trans teenagers. If you love your religion or preacher more than you love your child, then by all means send that child to conversion therapy. This child in the article is in a significant minority - very few children sent through this successfully "convert" to cisgender. Many - more than those who don't go through it but are still unsupported by their parents - commit suicide. Most others learn to hide their true selves and live an unhappy and unfulfilled life. But at least their parents didn't have to question their religious teachings, so all is well - right?
> 
> My guess is that Frons did not read the article I posted.


I have been involved with the Trans community for many years. Have met hundreds of happy, well adjusted, kids. I know of only one who "de-transitioned". They did so under pressure from their parents and the private Christian school they attended. 

The kid eventually committed suicide.


----------



## aclinjury

Transgender is doping now?? Does one need to dope to become a trans?
Well let's welcome Doctor Falsetti back to the Doping Forum


----------



## Local Hero

thesmokingman said:


> It's none of your business nor is it your truth to tell. I smell a serious lawsuit never mind the regulatory implications of breaking HIPAA laws.


I would not be surprised by a lawsuit. 

That said the privacy argument is a non-starter IMO. For one, how is a trans student going to change in the same locker room without others in the locker room being able to see that they are trans? 

It is hard to argue for personal privacy when fighting to get into the changing room. 

Is it a violation of HIPAA if some of the child's friend's already knew? What if the coach found out from students? 

If the coach is guilty of subjecting the trans student to bullying, why aren't the news sources also guilty of it? Surely they gave this little boy a bigger coming out party than what a coach announced to a locker room full of his teammates. 


In some versions of this story, the athletic director told the trans boy to use the visiting girl's locker room. In other versions, the coach told him to use it. 

Also, in some versions of this story, the little boy was forced to wrestle with a varsity boy who had threatened him and the coach coldly replied, "We do not choose who we get to wrestle." 

This is an interesting revelation for two reasons. First, there is no clarity in the timeline. All we read is the account from the mother (and trans boy). And it sounds like high school drama. 

The second revelation is that the trans boy stayed on the team for at least one practice after using the alternate locker room. That means that for at least some period of time, the alternate locker approach worked. 

The final thing I can say as someone who has wrestled competitively: Boys offering to beat the heck out of other boys is par for the course. Wrestling is a sport based on physical dominance and, at times, making an opponent submit. In this context, one kid saying to the other, "I'm going to kick your ass" is not bullying. It's normal for wrestling. 

Again, the allegations of bullying in this case really do seem like high school drama. 


Something missing from this discussion is the privacy rights of all the other boys on the team, highschool boys who may not feel comfortable changing in front of a biological female. Nobody cares about them though.


----------



## Local Hero

aclinjury said:


> Transgender is doping now?? Does one need to dope to become a trans?


In another story involving a trans boy who wrestles, doping comes up: 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...te-wrestling-title-for-second-time/ar-BBJAUsK


It's not his fault that he was forced to wrestle girls. It was the state's imposition. The father of one of the girls he beat asks, if none of the other biological girls are permitted to take testosterone, why is trans boy allowed to take it and wrestle them?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> That said the privacy argument is a non-starter IMO.


Fortunately your opinion does not matter. The rules are clear that the medical privacy of transgender students should be preserved. The coach not only broke that rule but do it in as humiliating a way possible. 

Some will try to justify and rationalize the coaches actions by diminishing the trans kid but that does not make them valid.


----------



## Local Hero

feh said:


> The fact you refer to such cases as disorders tells us everything we need to know about your state of mind.


Go on then, explain what it tells you about my state of mind. 

(Also, when you say "us" what do you mean? Are you speaking as a person suffering from multiple personality disorder?)


----------



## Local Hero

bradkay said:


> The medical term is Gender Dysphoria, not Gender Disorder.


This is true. 

Up until recently, it was known as Gender Identity Disorder. GID was the medical term. Modernly it is Gender Dysphoria. I didn't realize that things changed and the words I used were out of vogue. I am going to use the new words moving forward, as I do not want to upset the language police. 

#Woke


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Fortunately your opinion does not matter.


Then why keep responding? 



> The rules are clear that the medical privacy of transgender students should be preserved.


If the trans boy tells some students can we say that it is protected under HIPAA? 

If it is common knowledge that someone is trans, can a coach or athletic director ask them to use the visiting team's locker room? 



> The coach not only broke that rule but do it in as humiliating a way possible.


How do you imagine this played out? 



> Some will try to justify and rationalize the coaches actions by diminishing the trans kid but that does not make them valid.


You forgot to add your signature to this post.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> If the trans boy tells some students can we say that it is protected under HIPAA?
> .


No, and this is not about HIPPA this is about the coach breaking the rules of the Ohio schools. The bullying started *after* the coach outed and humiliated him.


----------



## bradkay

Local Hero said:


> This is true.
> 
> Up until recently, it was known as Gender Identity Disorder. GID was the medical term. Modernly it is Gender Dysphoria. I didn't realize that things changed and the words I used were out of vogue. I am going to use the new words moving forward, as I do not want to upset the language police.
> 
> #Woke


At one time homosexuality was considered a mental illness. We now know that it isn't. 

Please spare us the histrionics about being attacked by the language police. There is a reason the medical terminology was changed to match the latest medical research. If you are not up to date on the facts, then perhaps you should make yourself so before passing judgement on the people who have to live with dysphoria.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> No, and this is not about HIPPA this is about the coach breaking the rules of the Ohio schools.


If the trans boy tells some students can we say that the information is confidential under Ohio law? 

Does it matter how the coach found out? 




> The bullying started *after* the coach outed and humiliated him.


Two things there.

1) I understand that is alleged but the timeline is unclear

2) The "bullying" described in the other article needs to be kept in context of wrestling.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Does it matter how the coach found out?


The parents are obligated to tell the coach. Instead of keeping it private the coach used it to humiliate the kid. 

It is odd that you keep searching for excuses to justify and minimize the fact that the coach broke the rules and, in the process, humiliated a young boy who just wants to be part of a sport. The rules are in place to insure this does not happen.


----------



## aclinjury

At the very minimum, this coach is a despicable human being for outting the kid and thus putting him in a position of being hated and ridiculed by other kids. The coach did not do it inadvertently. He did it on purpose to inflict harm on an individual that doesn't vision of how the world should be. But looks like he also broke laws doing it.

See that's the problem with ignorance of biology. They think everything in X and Y, black and white. It's either you're male or female, and nothing in between. But anyone who has studied biology in college know sexuality is a spectrum. XY is only one factor though a dominant one, but there are also strong environmental factors that can also sexuality, and it's the interplay between "nature vs nurture" that will contribute to a person's sexuality, both physically and psychologically. And this spectrum can be seen across all of nature. Anyone who has studied biology and genetics knows this.

But sadly, America is run by mostly ignorant Christians, pushing false science mixed in with outdated religious ideologies that has outlived their times. Result: low tolerance.


----------



## aclinjury

Local Hero said:


> If the trans boy tells some students can we say that the information is confidential under Ohio law?
> 
> Does it matter how the coach found out?
> 
> 
> Two things there.
> 
> 1) I understand that is alleged but the timeline is unclear
> 
> 2) The "bullying" described in the other article needs to be kept in context of wrestling.


you need to stop being an apologist for the coach. He was an ahole supreme bigot at minimum. Why do you feel like defending a bigot? Trust me it doesn't make you look smart, intelligent, logical, or compassionate, at all. Fortunately, the world is moving away from defending such bigots.


----------



## Alaska Mike

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Why was this moved to doping forum? It has nothing to do with doping.
> 
> A coach broke the rules in order to embarrass and harass a kid. Deplorable


First off, welcome back.

I think it's in doping because inevitably the talk will turn to hormones (both naturally-produced and exogenous) and how they affect performance. In this current environment of evolving understanding/acceptance/resistance to gender identity, it's an important conversation to have in the sporting world.

From wikipedia (I know, not the best resource, but to provide some context):
_"It is estimated that about 0.005% to 0.014% of people assigned male at birth and 0.002% to 0.003% of people assigned female at birth would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, based on 2013 diagnostic criteria, though this is considered a modest underestimate."_

So we're not talking a huge percentage of the population. Of those potentially diagnosed with gender dysphoria, how many would want to participate in organized sports?

The reason I ask this is I am concerned how various accommodations and/or prohibitions would affect participation in Title IX sports from cis athletes. Not on a moralistic/personal belief standpoint, but on a purely competitive basis. I'm not worried about boys getting beat by girls (because I think that's awesome), but rather males transitioning to females in various stages hurting female sports participation. Maybe that's just my sexist view on things. It's a somewhat confusing world to navigate at this time.

Without knowing the full context of the story and eveyone's intents, I have a hard time passing judgement. However, I'm of the opinion that the coach was waaaaayyy out of line outing the individual to the team. That's up to that person to do in their own time.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Alaska Mike said:


> First off, welcome back.
> 
> I think it's in doping because inevitably the talk will turn to hormones (both naturally-produced and exogenous) and how they affect performance. In this current environment of evolving understanding/acceptance/resistance to gender identity, it's an important conversation to have in the sporting world.
> 
> From wikipedia (I know, not the best resource, but to provide some context):
> _"It is estimated that about 0.005% to 0.014% of people assigned male at birth and 0.002% to 0.003% of people assigned female at birth would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, based on 2013 diagnostic criteria, though this is considered a modest underestimate."_


In this case the person is a F to M trans kid wrestling against other boys. He has no competitive advantage

Estimates about trans people vary widely and are usually higher based on social acceptance. In more open minded areas you might see 2%, in more close minded areas you will see less than 1%. The challenge is most trans people live in "Stealth" mode. Like the kid who was outed by the coach, he just wanted to be a kid, be part of a team, live as his correct gender. The coach chose to out him in the most humiliating way possible. 

Social acceptance is key and kids are way ahead of adults on these subject. An example is how homosexuality has rapidly lost it's stigma. The result is kids are free to live a more authentic life. 

Nearly 50% of kids do not identity as exclusively hetro
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ople-heterosexual-lgbt-homosexual-yougov.html

As gay marriage became the norm youth suicide rates dropped
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/same-sex-marriage-fewer-youth-suicide

Family and societal acceptance and allowed trans kids to live normal lives, with depression levels on par with other kids. 
https://www.theguardian.com/society...sgender-children-mental-health-family-support

The coach, and other trolls who think it is fun to out trans people, is deplorable.


----------



## aclinjury

Doctor Falsetti said:


> In this case the person is a F to M trans kid wrestling against other boys. He has no competitive advantage
> 
> Estimates about trans people vary widely and are usually higher based on social acceptance. In more open minded areas you might see 2%, in more close minded areas you will see less than 1%. The challenge is most trans people live in "Stealth" mode. Like the kid who was outed by the coach, he just wanted to be a kid, be part of a team, live as his correct gender. The coach chose to out him in the most humiliating way possible.
> 
> *Social acceptance is key and kids are way ahead of adults on these subject. An example is how homosexuality has rapidly lost it's stigma. The result is kids are free to live a more authentic life. *
> 
> Nearly 50% of kids do not identity as exclusively hetro
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ople-heterosexual-lgbt-homosexual-yougov.html
> 
> As gay marriage became the norm youth suicide rates dropped
> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/same-sex-marriage-fewer-youth-suicide
> 
> Family and societal acceptance and allowed trans kids to live normal lives, with depression levels on par with other kids.
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...sgender-children-mental-health-family-support
> 
> The coach, and other trolls who think it is fun to out trans people, is deplorable.


Social acceptance is indeed key. I've lived all my life between many parts of Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore, China) and the US. From my observation, I believe religion has a great influence on how gays/trans are stigmatized in the US. In Asia, these folks are also sort of stigmatized too, but not anywhere close to like they are in the US. In many of these Asian societies, Buddhism is the religion followed closely by "ancestoral worshipping", and there is no "god" (in the sense of the Abrahamic god). For them, the use the concept of "god" interchangably with "nature"; god is nature and nature is god. So when these people are confronted with dealing with a gay or trans, yes they too would initially feel uncomfortable and confused, but, then they would revert to saying something like, "that's just nature, like a rose is red, like a thorn is sharp", and they accept gays/trans like they accept nature. I mean, you would never find a monk or any religious figure, or a temple, reject gays/trans like you do here in the US. Phrase like "God shall punish you for your sins", is almost never heard of being used over there in the same context like Americans use it. The equivalent belief would be "karma".

Another thing that makes acceptance of trans/gays easy over there than in the US is that hetero males, from all ages, from school kids to adults, do put their arms over each other's shoulders and kid around with each other in ways that Western men (even liberal ones) would never do. In fact, in grade school, it is not uncommon for kids to participate in drama plays where boys would dress up and pretend to be girls, and girls pretend to be boys, something you would not find much if at all in the US. They in effect turn something that is heavily stigmatized in the America into some sort a comedy to be made lightly and thus in the process help with its acceptance once the kids grow into adults and see the same situation in real life.


----------



## Fredrico

aclinjury said:


> Social acceptance is indeed key. I've lived all my life between many parts of Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore, China) and the US. From my observation, I believe religion has a great influence on how gays/trans are stigmatized in the US. In Asia, these folks are also sort of stigmatized too, but not anywhere close to like they are in the US. In many of these Asian societies, Buddhism is the religion followed closely by "ancestoral worshipping", and there is no "god" (in the sense of the Abrahamic god). For them, the use the concept of "god" interchangably with "nature"; god is nature and nature is god. So when these people are confronted with dealing with a gay or trans, yes they too would initially feel uncomfortable and confused, but, then they would revert to saying something like, "that's just nature, like a rose is red, like a thorn is sharp", and they accept gays/trans like they accept nature. I mean, you would never find a monk or any religious figure, or a temple, reject gays/trans like you do here in the US. Phrase like "God shall punish you for your sins", is almost never heard of being used over there in the same context like Americans use it. The equivalent belief would be "karma".
> 
> Another thing that makes acceptance of trans/gays easy over there than in the US is that hetero males, from all ages, from school kids to adults, do put their arms over each other's shoulders and kid around with each other in ways that Western men (even liberal ones) would never do. In fact, in grade school, it is not uncommon for kids to participate in drama plays where boys would dress up and pretend to be girls, and girls pretend to be boys, something you would not find much if at all in the US. They in effect turn something that is heavily stigmatized in the America into some sort a comedy to be made lightly and thus in the process help with its acceptance once the kids grow into adults and see the same situation in real life.


Well said, doc! Great commentary, Aclinjury! Had similar experiences traveling in SE Asia and India. Even France and Italy! They've worked out ways of accommodating the exceptions. Americans are still conflicted. Nice to read the kids are pulling out of it. Very interesting.


----------



## Local Hero

bradkay said:


> Please spare us the histrionics about being attacked by the language police. There is a reason the medical terminology was changed to match the latest medical research. If you are not up to date on the facts, then perhaps you should make yourself so before passing judgement on the people who have to live with dysphoria.


Has anyone in this thread passed judgment on the kid? 



aclinjury said:


> you need to stop being an apologist for the coach. He was an ahole supreme bigot at minimum. Why do you feel like defending a bigot? Trust me it doesn't make you look smart, intelligent, logical, or compassionate, at all. Fortunately, the world is moving away from defending such bigots.


Why attack me personally? Deal with what I say, not who you think I am.


----------



## bradkay

Local Hero said:


> *Has anyone in this thread passed judgment on the kid? *
> 
> Why attack me personally? Deal with what I say, not who you think I am.


On this kid, not exactly. On transgenders in general, you most certainly have. 

"Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity disorders of children?"

"It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys _because they are confused_." (note, they do not do that to "little boys", just another fact of transitioning that you did not seem to know). 

Those statements of yours most definitely are judgmental about a group of people of whom you are not terribly well informed.


----------



## crit_boy

If it is possible to move to the step after outrage toward how people found out kid was trans... 

Is it acceptable to have high school age people, some with penises and some with vaginas changing together in the same locker room at the same time?


----------



## Local Hero

bradkay said:


> On this kid, not exactly. On transgenders in general, you most certainly have.
> 
> "Why should the rest of the world ignore biological facts and comply with the gender identity disorders of children?"
> 
> "It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys _because they are confused_." (note, they do not do that to "little boys", just another fact of transitioning that you did not seem to know).
> 
> Those statements of yours most definitely are judgmental about a group of people of whom you are not terribly well informed.


You quoted two things from me. 

I used the 2013 medical diagnosis in the first statement. It seems that your biggest quarrel was with my use of the word "disorder" -- well, that was part of the medical diagnosis up until 2013 and the word is currently used in other diagnosis. So...?

In the second statement, we can all agree that there is a great deal of confusion and struggle for trans children. Nobody doubts that this is a really hard time for them and that they are confused. Actually, I should not speak so broadly: Do you think trans children are completely free of confusion? 

Move past the personal attacks and outrage. It isn't helping you or the trans kids. Now see if you can address the actual questions. 

Why should the rest of the world comply with the mental state of an individual? (trans children or adults)

Given that children have very little experience with the world, isn't is better to not rush into medical procedures? 

Once you get past his personal attacks and attempts at character assassination, doc made an argument. He said that waiting is part of the treatment plan. Of course, he defines waiting as delaying puberty with drugs. (He also lost his mind when I said that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility--of course this is a fact.) So is that best? Does it do more harm than good?


----------



## Fredrico

Local Hero said:


> ....some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility--


Is this an issue? Don't believe medical science is yet capable of giving M>F transgenders the ability to get pregnant and reproduce. Also kind of doubt F>M transgenders want to keep their female equipment, just in case they want to change their minds. So sterility is an irrelevant issue.


----------



## Local Hero

Fredrico said:


> Is this an issue? Don't believe medical science is yet capable of giving M>F transgenders the ability to get pregnant and reproduce. Also kind of doubt F>M transgenders want to keep their female equipment, just in case they want to change their minds. So sterility is an irrelevant issue.


It is an issue if the trans individual wants to have kids of their own. It may also be an issue if they grow up and decide that they are no longer trans. 

After I said what you quoted, that *some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility*, Doctor Falsetti repeatedly called me a liar. Of course, what I wrote is exactly right. 

Dr. Samuel Pang, Medical Director at IVF New England, has been treating gay and transgender men and women since 1998. According to Pang, *any type of treatment – surgery or hormonal – may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future*.


So I said the hormones may cause sterility. Dr. Pang says any type of treatment--surgery or hormonal -- may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future. 

Those seem pretty close to me.

Dr. Pang continues in a Q&A:


> *Q:* I’ve already started my transition with hormone therapy, but did not freeze my sperm or eggs prior. What's next?
> 
> *A:* Unfortunately, not all doctors present options for fertility preservation before you transition. If hormone therapy is halted, there is the possibility that sperm production may resume and ovaries will ovulate again. What’s unknown, because this is a new field, is how long can you be on hormone therapy before it could potentially become reversible. “I have had transgender men who have been on testosterone therapy for up to 18 months, and when we stopped his testosterone therapy he began ovulating and menstruating, which then allowed us to stimulate his ovaries and retrieve his eggs,” Pang says. However many men are reluctant to stop testosterone therapy because it can be psychologically distressing; you’ve been living as a man, and now facial hair stops growing and you start menstruating. It’s an option, but it’s not ideal. That’s why it is so important to consider fertility preservation before you initiate the transition.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Q:* I have a child under the age of 18 who is considering transitioning. What are options for preserving his or her fertility?
> 
> *A: *Children are coming out and transitioning at younger ages. If the child is post puberty, eggs or sperm can be retrieved and frozen. “The biggest obstacle would be where young boys or girls are given medications to suppress puberty,” Pang says. “A trans girl would be given drugs to prevent her from undergoing puberty so her penis and testicles won’t grow and she won’t produce testosterone. If they don’t undergo puberty, that would prevent a huge challenge for fertility preservation.”


https://www.fertilityauthority.com/articles/fertility-options-transgender-men-and-women


----------



## feh

Local Hero said:


> It is an issue if the trans individual wants to have kids of their own. It may also be an issue if they grow up and decide that they are no longer trans.


So, this is something they decide, eh? It's a choice, just like being gay.


----------



## Local Hero

feh said:


> So, this is something they decide, eh? It's a choice, just like being gay.


First, aren't you the one who tried to score some cheap points because I used the word _disorder_, claiming that it spoke to my state of mind? Well, what does it say about my state of mind that I used that word? 

(Do you respond to questions like this or are you more of a hit-and-run poster?) 


And, have you read the latest diagnostic terms in the 2013 edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental* Disorders*?

Let's all hope the title of the book doesn't cause harm to anyone. 



Next, did you know that some trans people de-transition?


----------



## Fredrico

Local Hero said:


> It is an issue if the trans individual wants to have kids of their own. It may also be an issue if they grow up and decide that they are no longer trans.
> 
> After I said what you quoted, that *some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility*, Doctor Falsetti repeatedly called me a liar. Of course, what I wrote is exactly right.
> 
> Dr. Samuel Pang, Medical Director at IVF New England, has been treating gay and transgender men and women since 1998. According to Pang, *any type of treatment – surgery or hormonal – may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future*.
> 
> 
> So I said the hormones may cause sterility. Dr. Pang says any type of treatment--surgery or hormonal -- may render trans people incapable of producing sperm or eggs in the future.
> 
> Those seem pretty close to me.
> 
> Dr. Pang continues in a Q&A:
> 
> https://www.fertilityauthority.com/articles/fertility-options-transgender-men-and-women


I'd sure like to learn more about the psychological determinants of gender dysphoria. If doctors worry about trans men starting to have periods if they run out of hormones, it could get complicated.

Still have to wonder why a trans patient would want to change his mind when he becomes adult. Picking up on what doc said, my feeling is wait until the organism naturally forms in the birth "gender," including "effeminate" men and "masculine" women, until the equipment is fully formed, generally agreed as by age 18, the "age of consent." Move out of the restricted home environment, enter the wide world, find out the possibilities of sexual identity outside what mommy and daddy showed ya, and if she really wants to be a man, apes a man in dress and appearance, and dates feminine lesbian women, go for it. By that time she'll have thoughts about it long enough to have faith in her decision to bag it and become a guy, minus the proper equipment between his legs.

The unassailable fact is, it takes an egg and sperm to reproduce, so far. In vitro fertilization still requires a sperm donor. Having babies requires a heterosexual relationship, it seems to me. Transgenders gave up the necessary equipment and presumably never want it back. If a trans couple wants a kid, how do they get around that? Adoption, like with gay couples?

Genetic cloning may solve that limitation.  The possibilities then become truly Dr. Frankenstein. 

The nature of sexual relationships is already transforming away from utilitarian, once required to propagate the tribe and now for personal psychological health, to focus on the spiritual, dealt with in the past through art or religion. Sex has been intimately connected to that throughout history. It flowers in times of peace and plenty. We're in one right now. Rock on.


----------



## feh

Local Hero said:


> (Do you respond to questions like this or are you more of a hit-and-run poster?)
> ]


It's not worth my time to interact with you; not when you clearly feel these people either have a disorder or are making a lifestyle choice.


----------



## bradkay

Local Hero said:


> You quoted two things from me.
> 
> I used the 2013 medical diagnosis in the first statement. It seems that your biggest quarrel was with my use of the word "disorder" -- well, that was part of the medical diagnosis up until 2013 and the word is currently used in other diagnosis. So...?
> 
> In the second statement, we can all agree that there is a great deal of confusion and struggle for trans children. Nobody doubts that this is a really hard time for them and that they are confused. Actually, I should not speak so broadly: Do you think trans children are completely free of confusion?
> 
> Move past the personal attacks and outrage. It isn't helping you or the trans kids. Now see if you can address the actual questions.
> 
> Why should the rest of the world comply with the mental state of an individual? (trans children or adults)
> 
> Given that children have very little experience with the world, isn't is better to not rush into medical procedures?
> 
> Once you get past his personal attacks and attempts at character assassination, doc made an argument. He said that waiting is part of the treatment plan. Of course, he defines waiting as delaying puberty with drugs. (He also lost his mind when I said that some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility--of course this is a fact.) So is that best? Does it do more harm than good?


Those folk who like to belittle the transgender community love to use the word "confusion" - as if transgender people are just going through a little phase that, once they have things pointed out to them, they will leave behind and be like everyone else. Transgender children and adults are certain that they happened to be "born with the wrong plumbing". No one goes through HRT without having undergone hours of sessions with professional therapists who then have to write a letter of recommendation. 

The puberty blocking drugs given to adolescents undergoing this therapy are not drugs that will sterilize them - they are merely drugs that help delay the onset of puberty until such a time as the child and the therapist is certain that HRT is the correct step to take. Both Dr Falsetto and I have taken exception to the claim you made that drugs were being given to children to sterilize them - this is not the case. Yes, HRT will sterilize the patient - but it is not administered to children. So, no, there is no rush into medical procedures. The puberty blockers are a "do no harm" interim step. If the child decides that transitioning is not in his/her future, then those drugs are stopped and puberty develops as it would have - just delayed. If those drugs are not administered to a transgender child, irreparable psychological damage could be inflicted upon that person. 

"Why should the rest of the world comply with the mental state of an individual?"

How about compassion? For those in the medical profession, they have taken an oath to "do no harm". Denying that a transgender situation exists is doing harm, and has led to numerous suicides over the years. This is why I have taken such an exception to your posts - you have been using the arguments advanced by those who deny that transgenderism exists ("those poor folk are just confused! We shouldn't encourage their behavior!").


----------



## bradkay

Frederico wrote: " If a trans couple wants a kid, how do they get around that? Adoption, like with gay couples?"

Adoption is one way. A lot of people in transition - at least those who can afford it - have their sperm/eggs frozen for future use. I know of at least one case where a transgender man had one of his frozen eggs fertilized in vitro and then implanted and has carried the baby to term so that he and his partner could experience the joy of raising their genetic child.


----------



## crit_boy

bradkay said:


> I know of at least one case where a transgender man had one of his frozen eggs fertilized in vitro and then implanted and has carried the baby to term so that he and his partner could experience the joy of raising their genetic child.


I realize this will be used to construe me as a complete a$$. But, what?

The trans man was actually a female with operating female parts and a male partner. So, the trans man was also homosexual?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> After I said what you quoted, that *some of the hormones given to trans people may cause sterility*, Doctor Falsetti repeatedly called me a liar. Of course, what I wrote is exactly right.



Why do you lie? 

You wrote


Local Hero said:


> It's weird to give a little boy drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility.


Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility. I gave you multiple sources that showed you are lying.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Next, did you know that some trans people de-transition?


I have known many kids who have transitioned. The only one that I know who de-transitioned did so due to pressure from their parents and church. They committed suicide.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

crit_boy said:


> If it is possible to move to the step after outrage toward how people found out kid was trans...
> 
> Is it acceptable to have high school age people, some with penises and some with vaginas changing together in the same locker room at the same time?


The thread is about how some bullies enjoy outing trans kids. Some folks like outing people. Deplorable 

You should start a tread about restroom laws. The majority of Americans live in states where this is the law, many for decades. Millions of kids, thousands of restrooms. Outside of the actions of a few fringe hate groups this had not been an issue.

Kids don't care.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

crit_boy said:


> I realize this will be used to construe me as a complete a$$. But, what?
> 
> The trans man was actually a female with operating female parts and a male partner. So, the trans man was also homosexual?


It is a reasonable question. 

Being trans does not always mean you are gay. It is about gender, not sexuality. There is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are set prenatally. Some trolls will push the lie that trans people are just "Confused" but the medical community strongly disputes this.


----------



## crit_boy

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The thread is about how some bullies enjoy outing trans kids. Some folks like outing people. Deplorable
> 
> You should start a tread about restroom laws. The majority of Americans live in states where this is the law, many for decades. Millions of kids, thousands of restrooms. Outside of the actions of a few fringe hate groups this had not been an issue.
> 
> Kids don't care.


I thought the thread was about the article in your OP. I am not talking about bathroom laws. I am not sure you can see past your outrage to other issues.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

crit_boy said:


> I thought the thread was about the article in your OP.


Did you read the article? The coach broke the rules and outed a trans kid, humiliated him, sat by while he was bullied.....exactly what I wrote. 




crit_boy said:


> I am not talking about bathroom laws.


Did you read your own post? Here it is


crit_boy said:


> Is it acceptable to have high school age people, some with penises and some with vaginas changing together in the same locker room at the same time?


Most of Americans live in a state that have nondiscrimination laws, the result millions of kids have been using facilities with trans kids for decades. Me pointing out these facts is not "Outrage".


----------



## love4himies

Local Hero said:


> Has anyone in this thread passed judgment on the kid?
> 
> *Why attack me personally? Deal with what I say, not who you think I am*.


Seems to be the thing to do on this forum.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

love4himies said:


> Seems to be the thing to do on this forum.


Spew some nonsense then cry victim when someone calls you on it?


----------



## crit_boy

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Did you read the article?


Did you?

From article "Tolliver made it clear that he didn’t want Aiden changing in the boy’s locker room and insisted that Aiden was a girl, the teen claims".

That prompted my question on whether minors - some with vaginas and some with penises - should change in the same locker room at the same time.

Instead of considering that, you toss thinly veiled insults. I understand that you see the coach as a total POS. Fine. 

If gender is fluid and sexual preference is not connected to gender, then how does society deal with the more abstracted issue of minors with penises and vaginas changing together?

Edit: you did make the unsupported assertion that many states have laws permitting different sex locker rooms for minor children and that millions of different sex children change together all the time. Wish i would have gone to one of those thousands of schools when i was in high school.


----------



## velodog

crit_boy said:


> Did you?
> 
> From article "Tolliver made it clear that he didn’t want Aiden changing in the boy’s locker room and insisted that Aiden was a girl, the teen claims".
> 
> That prompted my question on whether minors - some with vaginas and some with penises - should change in the same locker room at the same time.
> 
> Instead of considering that, you toss thinly veiled insults. I understand that you see the coach as a total POS. Fine.
> 
> If gender is fluid and sexual preference is not connected to gender, then how does society deal with the more abstracted issue of minors with penises and vaginas changing together?


Not that thinly veiled.


----------



## bradkay

The vast majority of today's youth seem to take transgenderism in stride, accepting that it is just another variation in the human condition. It is mostly the adults and those children influenced by their "Christian" parents and leaders who take an exception. Normally, peer pressure restrains the transphobes, but when adult leaders such as this coach encourage them, those bullies then start to feel justified in taking action. 

Whatever happened to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"


----------



## bradkay

crit_boy said:


> I realize this will be used to construe me as a complete a$$. But, what?
> 
> The trans man was actually a female with operating female parts and a male partner. So, the trans man was also homosexual?


IIRC, this man had a female partner, who was also transgender and therefore unable to bear children.

But I suppose that it is possible that it is a gay transman who partnered with a gay man. Does it matter?


----------



## crit_boy

bradkay said:


> IIRC, this man had a female partner, who was also transgender and therefore unable to bear children.
> 
> But I suppose that it is possible that it is a gay transman who partnered with a gay man. Does it matter?


So, two homosexual females both transed to males to become a homosexual male couple?

*I realize this is violating Doc's rule of not continuing to berate the deplorable coach as the OP apparently dictates all future post content and whether the posts in a given thread are proper for said thread.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility.


That might very well be true. In fact I did not say that puberty blockers do cause lifelong sterility. You might have something if I named a particular puberty blocker and said that it causes lifelong sterility. 

But in fact I spoke more generally about drugs [with an S, meaning more than one drug] that prevent puberty AND may cause lifelong sterility. It's clear that I was talking about the variety of hormone treatments available to trans people, not one particular drug. What I wrote is in line with what the doctor I quoted said. Scroll up and you still see it. You know what I am saying is correct. But don't let the facts get in the way of calling someone a liar. 


Bradkay is still struggling with reality. He is speaking out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to whether sex hormones are given to children. He said that after hours (hours!) of therapy: 


bradkay said:


> The puberty blocking drugs given to adolescents undergoing this therapy are not drugs that will sterilize them - they are merely drugs that help delay the onset of puberty until such a time as the child and the therapist is certain that HRT is the correct step to take...*Yes, HRT will sterilize the patient *- but it is not administered to children.


On one hand he says that the child and therapist need to be certain before HRT is administered. He then says HRT does sterilize the patient but it is not given to children. 

(The only way for his scenario to make sense would be if puberty blockers are administered until the patient reaches age 18. Then additional hormones are introduced.) 

Either way, unlike you he accepts that the sex hormones may cause sterility. And depending on which sentence we look at in his post, you can guess whether he thinks these hormones are given to children. 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> I have known many kids who have transitioned. The only one that I know who de-transitioned did so due to pressure from their parents and church. They committed suicide.


Kids can de-transition -- some may have pressure from parents and others may not. (Even adults have de-transitioned without overbearing parents.) 

It is difficult to get hard numbers on this but from what I have seen, the likelihood of de-transitioning decreases as the age of transition increases. 

Even so, adults get this wrong. 

If adults get this wrong, how can we say that children always get it right? This is a big problem and really difficult for people in your position to admit. Once you accept that everyone struggles with confusion and identity during their formative years and some children might be wrong about being trans then you run into trouble. The struggle is real and it isn't going to be remedied by Bradkay's "hours of therapy." There is no easy answer here. 

I think that's why people in your position respond with such anger and vitriol. 

If an entire argument is based on saying gender and sexuality is a huge grey area and a social construct, it must be maddening to have to also claim that for some pre-teen children the issue is unarguably black-and-white.


----------



## Local Hero

feh said:


> It's not worth my time to interact with you; not when you clearly feel these people either have a disorder or are making a lifestyle choice.


Whether trans people are diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria or the pre-2013 term Gender Identity Disorder, many do have mental disorders and some are making lifestyle choices. 

But if you do not think this is worth your time, you are obviously free to go. And I am free to assume that you were triggered by the title of a book, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

crit_boy said:


> Did you?
> 
> From article "Tolliver made it clear that he didn’t want Aiden changing in the boy’s locker room and insisted that Aiden was a girl, the teen claims".
> 
> That prompted my question on whether minors - some with vaginas and some with penises - should change in the same locker room at the same time.
> 
> Instead of considering that, you toss thinly veiled insults. I understand that you see the coach as a total POS. Fine.
> 
> If gender is fluid and sexual preference is not connected to gender, then how does society deal with the more abstracted issue of minors with penises and vaginas changing together?
> 
> Edit: you did make the unsupported assertion that many states have laws permitting different sex locker rooms for minor children and that millions of different sex children change together all the time. Wish i would have gone to one of those thousands of schools when i was in high school.


You consider facts "thinly veiled insults?"

The coach broke the rules, outed the kid, and ignored the resulting harassment and humiliation. Deplorable. 

Regarding state nondiscrimination laws. The first came into affect over 25 years ago. Now 21 states, and the district of Columbia, have laws in place. Most large cities have similar laws, over 225 jurisdictions. This covers the majority of the population of the U.S. Most large corporations also similar rules and provide transition care for trans people. States that try to launch hate bills routinely lose and now cases are working their way to the SCOTUS where they will likely win thanks to the 14th amendment.....meanwhile kids don't care.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> in fact I did not say that puberty blockers do cause lifelong sterility.


Why do you lie? You wrote



Local Hero said:


> drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility.


Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility. You are deliberately conflating puberty blockers with transition hormones. They are two very different things. Given your long history of disingenuous, misleading, posts this is no surprise.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Whether trans people are diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria or the 2013 term Gender Identity Disorder, many do have mental disorders and some are making lifestyle choices.
> 
> But if you do not think this is worth your time, you are obviously free to go. And I am free to assume that you were triggered by the title of a book, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.


This game of yours is bizarre. 

The medical community is clear on this. Being gay is not a mental disorder. Being trans is not a mental disorder. Transgender children who live in supportive families have the same level of depression and anxiety as the general population. Being Trans is not a lifestyle choice......trolling the internet is a lifestyle choice.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility. You are deliberately conflating puberty blockers with transition hormones. They are two very different things.


1) Are patients under 18 ever given transition hormones? 

2) Can transition hormones cause sterility? 




> Given your long history of disingenuous, misleading, posts this is no surprise.


No more personal attacks.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Being Trans is not a lifestyle choice......trolling the internet is a lifestyle choice.


If being trans is not a personal choice, would you say that gender is *not* a social construct?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Whether trans people are diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria or the 2013 term Gender Identity Disorder,


the 2013 term? Huh? 

The term Gender Dysphoria has been around for decades. The only thing that changed in 2013 was the modification of terminology in the DSM, which is only updated every 10-15 years. Many countries, like the U.K., changed this 15+ years ago. 

When you smear homosexuals do you use the pre DSM III term "ego-dystonic homosexuality" or do you prefer the even more archaic DSM II term "sexual orientation disturbance"


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> transition hormones


Again, these are not puberty blockers. In fact they are puberty accelerators. Trans teens who are given hormone therapy often go through a second puberty. 

No matter how much you deflect and obfuscate it does not change the fact that your claim that puberty blockers make someone permanently sterile is false.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> the 2013 term? Huh?
> 
> The term Gender Dysphoria has been around for decades. The only thing that changed in 2013 was the modification of terminology in the DSM, which is only updated every 10-15 years. Many countries, like the U.K., changed this 15+ years ago.
> 
> When you smear homosexuals do you use the pre DSM III term "ego-dystonic homosexuality" or do you prefer the even more archaic DSM II term "sexual orientation disturbance"


This is pathetic. 

On Wikipedia, Gender Dysphoria and Gender Identity Disorder are used interchangeably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

_Gender dysphoria (GD), or gender identity disorder (GID), is the distress a person experiences as a result of the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. 
...
Gender dysphoria is classified as a disorder under dual role transvestism in the 2017 ICD-10 CM
_Of course it says that the term gender identity disorder is an older term for the condition. There is more discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Classification_as_a_disorder 

Up above, you linked to a 2012 paper with "Gender Identity Disorder" in its title: Report of the APA Task Force on Treatment of *Gender Identity Disorder 
*


Doctor Falsetti said:


> the American Psychiatric Association (Byne et al., 2012),


Let's try to move on now. 




Doctor Falsetti said:


> Again, these are not puberty blockers. In fact they are puberty accelerators. Trans teens who are given hormone therapy often go through a second puberty.
> 
> No matter how much you deflect and obfuscate it does not change the fact that your claim that puberty blockers make someone permanently sterile is false.


Nice dodge. 

Can the transition hormones cause sterility? [Hint: Yes!]

Some trans children are given puberty blockers _and_ transition hormones (though not at the same time). Puberty blockers prevent puberty. Transition hormones may cause sterility. 

THEREFORE: Some trans children are given drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility. 

This is what I said above. It is what I have said repeatedly in this thread. It is what I quoted a doctor saying. It is what Bradkay said. 

I think the only way to continue to argue against me on this is to take tiny fragments of my sentences and distort the meaning, then fight against an imagined enemy. And if you lose at that, pretend that I am attacking and smearing homosexuals.


----------



## HFroller

Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are set prenatally. Some trolls will push the lie that trans people are just "Confused" but the medical community strongly disputes this.


I don't understand. Gender is generally seen as a social construct. How can it be set prenatally? If what you're saying is correct, all those university departments of Gender Studies will have to close their doors.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> THEREFORE: Some trans children are given drugs that prevent puberty and may cause lifelong sterility.


Again, this claim is false. Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility. You made a false claim and now you continue with this bizarre obfuscation game.



Local Hero said:


> This is pathetic.
> .


No more personal attacks


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> ]Of course it says that the term gender identity disorder is an older term for the condition.


Good of you to admit you were using out of date terminology.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Again, this claim is false. Puberty blockers do not cause lifelong sterility. You made a false claim and now you continue with this bizarre obfuscation game.


I don't think you want to see eye-to-eye on this. Let's move on. 



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Good of you to admit you were using out of date terminology.


Did you see post #42 in this thread?


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> I don't think you want to see eye-to-eye on this. Let's move on.


Correct, I know that trans kids are not "Confused", I know that little boys are not getting their "balls cut off" and I know that puberty blockers do not cause life time sterility.


----------



## HFroller

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Correct, I know that trans kids are not "Confused".


I want to believe you when you say they aren't, but _I _am confused now. Usually a distinction is made between sex and gender. The first is biological, the second is a social construct. But you're claiming gender is set prenatally. In other words, it's biology. What is it? 

Are you saying the old and (almost) forgotten description "transsexual" is actually more correct than transgender?


----------



## Local Hero

*You know things that are not true*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Correct, I know that trans kids are not "Confused", I know that little boys are not getting their "balls cut off" and I know that puberty blockers do not cause life time sterility.


Trans children, like all children, are confused. Among all the things that confuse a child, I cannot imagine too many things that would be more confusing than being trans. And given that some adults transition and then de-transition, how can anyone be certain that a child will not de-transition? How can anyone claim to know that trans children are not especially confused about their gender? (I did post a video in this thread with interviews from three young adult trans people who de-transitioned.)


According to Wikipedia, gender dysphoria in children is treated via medical interventions such as hormone therapy and *surgery*. 


And now, for the last time: Puberty blockers prevent puberty, transition hormones may cause sterility. These drugs prevent puberty and may cause sterility.


----------



## crit_boy

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You consider facts "thinly veiled insults?"
> 
> The coach broke the rules, outed the kid, and ignored the resulting harassment and humiliation. Deplorable.
> 
> Regarding state nondiscrimination laws. The first came into affect over 25 years ago. Now 21 states, and the district of Columbia, have laws in place. Most large cities have similar laws, over 225 jurisdictions. This covers the majority of the population of the U.S. Most large corporations also similar rules and provide transition care for trans people. States that try to launch hate bills routinely lose and now cases are working their way to the SCOTUS where they will likely win thanks to the 14th amendment.....meanwhile kids don't care.


I guess that means you refuse to answer the question.

BTW, no one on the entire thread has tried to defend the coach. But, you are not able to move beyond that single issue.


----------



## bradkay

You want to talk about stopping the insults? Look at post 80 in this thread. 


I am not "struggling with reality". I am very aware of the protocol and steps taken to treat transgender folk. I know that any steps taken to move forward with transitioning are not taken lightly, or without extreme care and discussion between the patient and the medical provider. 

I am not the one making the outrageous claims that "little boys are being castrated" or "given drugs that sterilize". HRT is not started until the patient is well along in the transition process - and is sometimes started in the teen years but for the vast majority not until after the 18th birthday. Puberty blockers do not sterilize, HRT does. Yes, HRT generally follows the puberty blockers by a few years, but not always - and is never given to "little boys". 

LH worries about transitioning at all, because a very few patients wished to de-transition later in life. Well, aside from the questions as to why they want to de-transition (could it be because of encountering too much hate and discrimination?), this begs the question: should any elective surgery be prohibited because a few patients decide later that they shouldn't have done it? How about breast augmentation? Face lifts? 

Is the good done for the vast majority of the patients who undergo these procedures to be disallowed because a few decide that they made a mistake? 

The earlier in life the transition occurs, the more likely the person involved will be able to find their place in general society - provided they receive support from their family and friends. When that support is withheld, the transition is not so smooth (as with the person Dr Falsetti speaks of who ended up committing suicide after de-transitioning). 

So, if the majority of those who transition relatively early (before secondary sexual characteristics progress too far) do so successfully, should future candidates be prohibited from doing so because a few did not? 

What's the success rate of open heart surgery? Should it be banned because some don't make it? 

"According to Wikipedia, gender dysphoria in children is treated via medical interventions such as hormone therapy and *surgery*. "

Wikipedia is not an overly reliable source. I have never heard of a child being treated for gender dysphoria with surgery. That has always been withheld until after the 18th birthday, at least in the US and Canada. 



"No more personal attacks."

You might start following that suggestion yourself.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> *According to Wikipedia*, gender dysphoria in children is treated via medical interventions such as hormone therapy and *surgery*.


Wikipedia? 

As I have said multiple times your claim that little boys are getting genital surgery is false. It is clear by now you are no interested in facts, but if that changes I suggest you read the WPATH guidelines, which are used by doctors and insurance companies as the guide for trans care. WAPTH is clear, no genital sugary prior to 18 and certainly not prior to several years living in their correct gender.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

crit_boy said:


> I guess that means you refuse to answer the question.
> 
> BTW, no one on the entire thread has tried to defend the coach. But, you are not able to move beyond that single issue.


Huh? I answered your question.  I explained how millions of kids have been using restrooms and locker rooms with trans kids for decades. I showed how it has been the norm in 21 states and 225+ municipalities. Your concerns are unfounded


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Trans children, like all children, are confused.


It is clear to any reasonable person that your labeling of the trans kid as "confused" was nothing more than an attempt to de-legitimize the fact that he was trans and deflect from the coaches actions.


----------



## Local Hero

bradkay said:


> LH worries about transitioning at all, because a very few patients wished to de-transition later in life. Well, aside from the questions as to why they want to de-transition (could it be because of encountering too much hate and discrimination?), this begs the question: should any elective surgery be prohibited because a few patients decide later that they shouldn't have done it? How about breast augmentation? Face lifts?
> 
> Is the good done for the vast majority of the patients who undergo these procedures to be disallowed because a few decide that they made a mistake?


That's a good question. 

Breast augmentation might be among the surgeries for trans girls. That said, you also ask about regret after elective surgeries. Well there are good reasons why we do not allow children to make these kinds of decisions. 


> What's the success rate of open heart surgery? Should it be banned because some don't make it?


That depends on how you define success but the truth is that heart surgery is full of complications. We have really good numbers on heart surgery in this country. It's funny that you bring this up. I am friends with the pair of heart surgeons from a local hospital. We have talked about this a lot. The main factor is the health of the patient prior to surgery. IIRC, one of the best predictors of the patient being free of complications after the surgery is whether they can walk around the block prior to the surgery. 



> "According to Wikipedia, gender dysphoria in children is treated via medical interventions such as hormone therapy and *surgery*. "
> 
> Wikipedia is not an overly reliable source.


Can we assume that the author of that sentence is a bully who supports the couch?


----------



## Alaska Mike

It's been a little less than a decade since I last did any intensive coaching training (course study, classes, certification...), but absolutely zero of it discussed LGBT issues. The hot buttons of the time were racial and gender biases, so they were intensively covered. As we evolve as a society, how we treat and relate to various segments of our society have to evolve as well. This coach obviously didn't, although I'm sure his school district exposed him to policies and educational materials.

It's a big country, and it's full of idiots. Some of those idiots are in places of power. Some are coaches who hire hookers to lure recruits. Some are doctors for gymnastics programs. What was once taboo is now accepted. What was once accepted is now taboo. Some of it is for the best, some not.

Navigating this world and positively influencing young athletes are challenging tasks. This coach wasn't up to it. A lot of coaches aren't up to it, but they just haven't been widely outed yet for their transgressions.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It is clear to any reasonable person that your labeling of the trans kid as "confused" was nothing more than an attempt to de-legitimize the fact that he was trans and deflect from the coaches actions.


What you just wrote might make sense to someone who ignored my very first post in this thread:


Local Hero said:


> There are potential safety issues having someone with a vagina change in the boy's locker room. That isn't to say that this coach handled things correctly. It sounds like he screwed the pooch and will probably pay for it with his job.


What happened here is that a news story came up on an issue that many of us have debated. In this thread we debated the larger issue and went back and forth to the particular news example. Having an opinion on the underlying issue is not supporting a bully coach, or whatever else has been said. 

But I want to confess something to you. I think your discussion of your perception of my motives and character is a boring discussion. I would rather talk about the underlying issue. Can we do that? 



I want to revisit something interesting that you wrote above.

You said that there is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are pre-determined or at least influenced prenantally. Here are your words: 


Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are set prenatally.


Would you agree that that _men and women biologically differ in many ways, there are often clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone_? 



The italicized words above come directly from James Damore's memo. 

Do you now agree with him?

If not, can you explain the difference?


And now can you answer if you think gender is a social construct? Because it really sounds like you do not think that. I just want confirmation.


----------



## Local Hero

Alaska Mike said:


> It's been a little less than a decade since I last did any intensive coaching training (course study, classes, certification...), but absolutely zero of it discussed LGBT issues. The hot buttons of the time were racial and gender biases, so they were intensively covered. As we evolve as a society, how we treat and relate to various segments of our society have to evolve as well. This coach obviously didn't, although I'm sure his school district exposed him to policies and educational materials.
> 
> It's a big country, and it's full of idiots. Some of those idiots are in places of power. Some are coaches who hire hookers to lure recruits. Some are doctors for gymnastics programs. What was once taboo is now accepted. What was once accepted is now taboo. Some of it is for the best, some not.
> 
> Navigating this world and positively influencing young athletes are challenging tasks. This coach wasn't up to it. A lot of coaches aren't up to it, but they just haven't been widely outed yet for their transgressions.


My safesport certification and training was really focused on sexual abuse. Honestly, all that talk about grooming and predatory coaches made me never want to be alone with a kid, for fear of a false accusation. 

Your post really reminds me of something a friend said. She said, "WTH. I was not ready to see an androgynous boy win the sprint in the womens field. I am still getting used to this whole transgender thing. Do you think that in 2050, the womens Olympics will be dominated by guys pretending to be girls?" 

I told her to simmer down with that kind of talk. Those views are quickly going out of vogue. (Offline, I am the one saying we should use female pronouns for the trans woman.)

I had to explain to her that the people who claim to be the most tolerant and progressive with regard to trans people are often the most intolerant and hateful towards people who are not yet up to speed. Things are changing quickly. You are right that traditional views from 10 years ago are today's hate speech. 

(I used a 2012 medical term and people in this thread really struggled with it.)


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> What you just wrote might make sense to someone who ignored my very first post in this thread:
> .



Of course I was referring to this. 


Local Hero said:


> It's even worse if we go cutting off the balls of little boys because they are confused. But if some parents do decide to mutilate the little boy's genitals, we are not allowed to question it.


Trans kids are not trans because they are "confused". Little boys are not getting their balls cut off. They are not mutilating little boys genitals. The boy that is the subject of this thread has not had genital surgery.


----------



## Local Hero

I want to revisit something interesting that you wrote above.

You said that there is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are pre-determined or at least influenced prenantally. Here are your words: 


Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is increasing consensus that sexuality and gender are set prenatally.


Would you agree that that _men and women biologically differ in many ways, there are often clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone_? 



The italicized words above come directly from James Damore's memo. 

Do you now agree with him?

If not, can you explain the difference?


And now can you answer if you think gender is a social construct? Because it really sounds like you do not think that. I just want confirmation.


----------



## No Time Toulouse

Local Hero said:


> ....According to Wikipedia, .....


Wow, that's some source there, bub! Gee, I remember a few years ago, Craig Ferguson was having his viewers go onto Wikipedia to change his entry to say that he had 3 nipples. A 'crowd source' like Wikipedia has zero veracity.

And, btw, your ideas on transgenderism are a result of one or more of the following:

1) Listening to too may AM radio talk shows
2) Membership in some reactionary religious sect
3) Having never met a transgender person
4) Insecure masculinity, or
5) Plain old bigotry.

Really, you should quit while you are behind. Your opinions are ignorant and incorrect. The longer you try to support them the deeper the hole you are digging will get.


----------



## Local Hero

No Time Toulouse said:


> Wow, that's some source there, bub! Gee, I remember a few years ago, Craig Ferguson was having his viewers go onto Wikipedia to change his entry to say that he had 3 nipples. A 'crowd source' like Wikipedia has zero veracity.


We can assume that the authors of that article got that information from one or more of the following:

1) Listening to too may AM radio talk shows
2) Membership in some reactionary religious sect
3) Having never met a transgender person
4) Insecure masculinity, or
5) Plain old bigotry.

We've heard in this very thread that any person who refers to Gender Dysphoria as Gender Identity Disorder is some sort of a bigot. But that doesn't include a person who references a 2012 paper with Gender Identity Disorder in the title, as long as that paper is being used to support the cause. 

Do you think the authors of that 2012 paper got their information from one or more of the following? 

1) Listening to too may AM radio talk shows
2) Membership in some reactionary religious sect
3) Having never met a transgender person
4) Insecure masculinity, or
5) Plain old bigotry.

???



> Really, you should quit while you are behind. Your opinions are ignorant and incorrect. The longer you try to support them the deeper the hole you are digging will get.


Are you the poster who tried to correct me after I said that some M-F trans women get breast implants? 

And since you are here, can you say whether you agree with doctor falsetti and James Damore or if you think gender is a social construct?


----------



## Guest

bradkay said:


> LH worries about transitioning at all, because a very few patients wished to de-transition later in life.


Activist writers like Serano and Tannehill claim that desistance is rare, but the only studies there are indicate otherwise. They criticize those studies, but have no real data with which to refute them.
https://www.thecut.com/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html

Â*Â*Sexology Today!: Statistics faulty on how many trans- kids grow up to stay trans-?



bradkay said:


> Those folk who like to belittle the transgender community love to use the word "confusion" - as if transgender people are just going through a little phase that, once they have things pointed out to them, they will leave behind and be like everyone else. Transgender children and adults are certain that they happened to be "born with the wrong plumbing". No one goes through HRT without having undergone hours of sessions with professional therapists who then have to write a letter of recommendation.





bradkay said:


> I am not "struggling with reality". I am very aware of the protocol and steps taken to treat transgender folk. I know that any steps taken to move forward with transitioning are not taken lightly, or without extreme care and discussion between the patient and the medical provider.


Hardly. This individual posted a YT rebuttal in response to a Serano article on desistance, chronicling her own struggles with dysphoria and how she was put on hormone therapy after only three or four visits with a therapist.






This article recounts the experiences of two individuals who received prescriptions for hormones on their first visit.

After moving to San Francisco in search of community and acceptance, Paul, uninsured, stumbled across a community health clinic. Upon his first visit, he was prescribed male-to-female hormones, given very little information on the risks and potential side effects, and told “not to worry” whenever he expressed concern about drugs or long-term side effects.​---Not finding satisfaction in his new identity, Taylor began the detransition process after a year, quitting hormones and reverting back to a masculine expression of self. He described to me his disappointment in the system.
“I wish I had been challenged by a doctor,” he says. “I went to an endocrinologist, who gave me a prescription on the first visit, before my blood work results even came back. ‘It’ll be fine, congratulations!’ was his attitude. The doctor should’ve challenged me.”​


bradkay said:


> "conversion therapy" is responsible for an increase in the rate of suicide among trans teenagers.
> 
> This child in the article is in a significant minority - very few children sent through this successfully "convert" to cisgender. Many - more than those who don't go through it but are still unsupported by their parents - commit suicide.
> 
> My guess is that Frons did not read the article I posted.


The article was over a year old, so I was already familiar with it. And you make several unsupported assertions. That young child seemed very insistent in contrast to the teen in the interview. 

Why should they both be given the same treatment? The reason therapists fail individuals who would benefit from some questioning therapy is because they are scared spitless that they will be labeled as transphobic, lose their employment, and lose their license to practice if they don’t rubber stamp the patient’s demands. These three individuals’ heart-breaking stories could have been avoided if only activists would stop creating an atmosphere of bullying health care providers who won’t give unquestioning gender-affirming care as the only option.

From Stella’s video above, “I want to ask you, how many other medical conditions are there where you can walk into the doctor's office, tell them you have a certain condition, which has no objective test, which can be caused by trauma or mental health issues or societal factors, and receive life-altering medications on your say-so?”


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

A coach breaks the rules, outs and humiliates a trans kid, and the same folks jump in to highjack the discussion so they can de-legitimize trans kids. 

They push the lie that parents are mutilating young boys genitals, that puberty blockers cause lifelong sterility.....ignoring facts and playing linguistic gymnastics in order to extend their trolling. 

In an effort to justify their transphobia they paint trans kids as just "confused" kids who will "regret" their transition. They completely ignore the fact that transitioning, especially with kids, is a long process. It is usually years before anything more than therapy is involved. 

The fact is multiple studies have found no cases of persistent regret among youth who were treated with puberty blockers and later went on to transition

http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(09)62807-0/abstract
Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment | Articles | Pediatrics

They push fringe groups that use deliberately outdated diagnostic criteria. Even the authors of the study, Zucker and Bradley, wrote that it is rare for children who are brought to gender clinics to believe themselves to *be* the other gender. Much more common were children who showed cross-gender behaviors, who may have wished they were the other gender at times but still saw themselves as members of their original gender group. 

Read the study. They were asked “are you a boy or a girl” as an intake questions an overwhelming percentage (more than 90%) of children in these clinics provided the answer that aligned with their natal sex. Most of the children who desisted *never* claimed a transgender identity to begin with. They also ignore the fact that the study could not locate 45.3% of the children for follow up, and made the assumption that all of them were desisters

The fact is research has consistently shown that children who meet the clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria are as consistent in their gender identity as the general population.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614568156

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23702447

The goal of all of this to give the impression that trans health practitioners are engaging in some kind of reckless sociological experiment. They are not. 

Perhaps we can get back on topic? Instead of de-legitimizing trans kids how about addressing the topic of the thread? The deplorable outing of a trans kid by a coach who broke the rules, humiliated him and ignored bulling?


----------



## bradkay

"The reason therapists fail individuals who would benefit from some questioning therapy is because they are scared spitless that they will be labeled as transphobic, lose their employment, and lose their license to practice if they don’t rubber stamp the patient’s demands."

Wow... talk about unsupported claims... Therapists have a standard of treatment that they are required to follow. The only one I have heard of losing his license in the northwest was one who was too free with his diagnosis, not one who "refused to rubber stamp the patient's demands". See, you aren't the only one who can use anecdotal evidence - which all you have offered in the form of stories from folks who desisted. Where is the evidence in the form of statistical studies? Right, Dr Falsetti has provided that - and it does not support your claims of wholesale ignorance of the standards of care by the medical community.

Now, closer to the original subject, a federal court has ruled in favor of a transgender students access to the locker room, shooting down the "privacy" argument so many like to bring up. 

https://thinkprogress.org/maryland-transgender-student-privacy-ruling-60bf3c94e491/

"
A federal judge in Maryland ruled this week in favor of a transgender student’s right to access the locker rooms at his high school in the Talbot County School District. In doing so, he dismantled the school’s arguments that accommodating the student would somehow encroach upon his classmates’ “privacy.”
Max Brennan (identified as M.A.B. in the decision) attends St. Michaels Middle High School, where he has been generally accepted by his peers and teachers. But Max was not allowed to use the boys’ locker rooms, and the school has instead required him to use one of three single-use restrooms, even though they were far from the gym and had no benches, showers, or lockers.
Not only was this humiliating, but it also made Max often tardy for class, requiring him to disclose his trans identity and reveal the embarrassing restrictions in order to avoid disciplinary action. Sometimes he also just avoided changing his clothes, for which his phys ed teacher penalized his grade.
FreeState Justice, joined by the ACLU of Maryland, sued on Max’s behalf. The school defended its policy, arguing that allowing Max to use the locker room would constitute “government compulsion of students to expose their bodies and to be exposed to the bodies of students of the opposite sex [assigned at birth].” This was in spite of the fact that no male students had ever voiced any discomfort over Max sharing their restrooms, and many had even congratulated him when the school board granted him that access."

(Judge's comments)
'

Because Defendants contend that they may bar M.A.B. from the boys’ locker room completely — despite the presence of single-use restrooms or stalls — by implication, Defendants are arguing that the presence of M.A.B. in the boys’ locker room — itself — is what infringes on the privacy rights of other boys.
Defendants do not provide any explanation for why completely barring M.A.B. from the boys’ locker room protects the privacy of other boys changing there, while the availability of single-use restrooms or locker room stalls does not. Nor does the Court find any. M.A.B.’s presence in the boys’ locker room “provides no more of a risk to other students’ privacy rights than the presence of an overly curious student of the same biological sex who decides to sneak glances at his or her classmates” while they change their clothes. So, as in _Whitaker_, preventing M.A.B. from changing clothes in the boys’ locker room “does nothing to protect the privacy rights” of students at the High School.'

"

As in several other recent trans rights decisions, Russell ruled that trans students are protected both in terms of discrimination on the basis of sex (because of gender stereotyping) and that trans people are their own “quasi-suspect” class, meaning that the court must apply heightened scrutiny when assessing laws and policies that directly target them for unequal treatment.
The Supreme Court has laid out four criteria for recognizing a new classification for heightened scrutiny, and Russell agreed that transgender people easily meet those criteria. Trans people have been historically (and presently) subjected to discrimination; being trans bears no relation to their ability to contribute to society; they have a distinguishing, immutable characteristic; and they are “a minority or politically powerless.” He noted how few openly transgender people have been elected to higher office and how often the courts have been called upon to respond to laws and policies that target them for mistreatment."
​


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

frons said:


> The reason therapists fail individuals who would benefit from some questioning therapy is because they are scared spitless that they will be labeled as transphobic, lose their employment, and lose their license to practice if they don’t rubber stamp the patient’s demands. These three individuals’ heart-breaking stories could have been avoided if only activists would stop creating an atmosphere of bullying health care providers who won’t give *unquestioning gender-affirming care as the only option*.


This is complete nonsense. You have absolutely zero understanding of what you are talking about. None of this paragraph is true. 

The lie that is pushed by the far right is that a kid walks into doctors office and the next thing their genitals are mutilated and they are pumped full of hormones. Nothing is farther from the truth. You are pushing a lie that has zero basis in reality. 

If you are actually interested in this topic and are not just here to post lies I suggest reading the WPATH standards of care that I posted up thread. If you did you would know that what you are posting is complete nonsense.


----------



## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> In an effort to justify their transphobia they paint trans kids as just "confused" kids who will "regret" their transition.


The fact that there were studies distinguishing WISHING vs BEING for children's gender shows that there is confusion. Children have desisted. Adults have too. If some adults and children get this wrong, shouldn't we proceed with extreme caution and start with affirming a child's biological gender? 

Children live in fantasy worlds. How can a 9 year old make a lifelong decision? Ferretting out the difference between wishing and being is difficult for a child who believes in Harry Potter.




> The fact is multiple studies have found no cases of persistent regret among youth who were treated with puberty blockers and later went on to transition


Two things about a study that you posted. 

First the paper is written by people who run the clinic. Talk about a vested interest. Next, they are talking about surgery performed prior to adulthood. I was called a liar for discussing this practice. From the study: *adolescent transsexual patients of our gender clinic who underwent sex reassignment surgery*....Starting the sex reassignment procedure before adulthood results in favorable postoperative functioning, provided that careful diagnosis takes place...



Now to the question, which I am sure will be avoided: What are the objective criteria for diagnosing transgender children? 

Do doctors need to follow WPATH? 

In a case Bradkay cited, it is said that transgernderism is _immutable_: "they have a distinguishing, immutable characteristic;"

And I don't want us to get sidetracked. I want these questions answered. In light of that, I will say that I am not against individuals who are really trans getting the treatment they need. The issue is diagnosis and an objective criteria. 

How can it be immutable if children and adults have desisted? 

(Is there a no-true scotsman argument? A survey bias?)


----------



## Local Hero

One other thing in this thread. We have repeatedly heard that children are more and more accepting of trans children. 

Great. 

Where is the bullying?


----------

