# F3 or AR4...Flip a coin? Seeking Wisdom.



## Air55

I picked up road cycling a year ago to stay in shape for mountain biking. I discovered that I love road biking and would like to upgrade from my heavy, steel Jamis Quest (2000).

I've narrowed it down to the aero AR4 and more standard F3, which would cost me about the same. I've tested both bikes and both feel great.

I'm not sure how to decide due to my lack of experience. I don't know which bike I should get based on my goals for racing and recreation:

1. Racing Goals: Local weekly Crits; 2 hill climb races per year (northeast US); 1-2 road races a year; 1-2 triathlons a year.

2. Recreation goals: Goals: Occasional Century, commute to work (27 miles one way), weekly road group rides.

Since both bikes feel great during a test ride, how do I decide? I’ve done a lot of internet research, and some of the reviews (like this one: http://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/felt-ar2) suggest that the aero AR series is the way to go because the ride quality, stiffness, and handling are essentially on par with the F-series, with the extra speed of the aerodynamic frame. The F3 is slightly lighter (~1/3 lb). But I have to believe there's a reason that those Garmin pros are picking the F-series over the AR-series more often than not. 

Are there advantages to the F3 over the AR4 that I’m missing? I suppose SRAM Red is considered better than Shimano Ultegra…but I don’t why. Can someone with more experience provide some wisdom? 

Am I splitting hairs and should I just flip a coin? BTW I'm 5'8" 145lbs.
Thanks.


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## UpStroke

Air55 said:


> I picked up road cycling a year ago to stay in shape for mountain biking. I discovered that I love road biking and would like to upgrade from my heavy, steel Jamis Quest (2000).
> 
> I've narrowed it down to the aero AR4 and more standard F3, which would cost me about the same. I've tested both bikes and both feel great.
> 
> I'm not sure how to decide due to my lack of experience. I don't know which bike I should get based on my goals for racing and recreation:
> 
> 1. Racing Goals: Local weekly Crits; 2 hill climb races per year (northeast US); 1-2 road races a year; 1-2 triathlons a year.
> 
> 2. Recreation goals: Goals: Occasional Century, commute to work (27 miles one way), weekly road group rides.
> 
> Since both bikes feel great during a test ride, how do I decide? I’ve done a lot of internet research, and some of the reviews (like this one: https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/felt-ar2) suggest that the aero AR series is the way to go because the ride quality, stiffness, and handling are essentially on par with the F-series, with the extra speed of the aerodynamic frame. The F3 is slightly lighter (~1/3 lb). But I have to believe there's a reason that those Garmin pros are picking the F-series over the AR-series more often than not.
> 
> Are there advantages to the F3 over the AR4 that I’m missing? I suppose SRAM Red is considered better than Shimano Ultegra…but I don’t why. Can someone with more experience provide some wisdom?
> 
> Am I splitting hairs and should I just flip a coin? BTW I'm 5'8" 145lbs.
> Thanks.



The AR series is the bomb. The only area is that the F3 will be more responsive in is the crits. For going fast, Tri's, Road Racing or riding with the group the AR is the ticket. As far a SRAM Red is concerned it is my favorite groupo but, the AR4 will have the new Ultegra which is 
lighter than the previous Ultegra design. I was thinking of an AR4 or AR2 last year and one of the options my shop was willing to do was to
switch out the old design Ultegra Shifters and derailers with Red. I don't know I would dump the New Ultegra for Red?


















My AR2 from last year. I had another crank on it temporarily waiting for my Dura Ace compact crank ( which I love ).
Profile Air Strike carbon bars look good and they mount ( clamp)to a Profile stem, not on the bars. This makes the Aero bars easy to mount/un-mount and when you put them back on they are in the exact same postion.
Joel


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## Air55

UpStroke:
Thank you for insight. I'm pulling the trigger this weekend...

My LBS has some *2010 *AR4s in his shop...any idea why the bike paint doesn't describe the frame as Ultra-High Modulus Carbon vs. High Modulus Carbon?

In the picture for the AR4 on Felt's website (http://www.feltbicycles.com/Resources/ProductPhotos/Bikes/AR4_v3_10-09(1).jpg) , you can see the "Ultra" written on the seat tube......but my LBS AR4s don't have this...just says "High". The shop owner doesn't know why.

I've seen other 2010 AR4 pics posted on in this forum...without the "ultra" that's shown on the website. 

Is this a mistake?


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## UpStroke

Air55 said:


> UpStroke:
> Thank you for insight. I'm pulling the trigger this weekend...
> 
> My LBS has some *2010 *AR4s in his shop...any idea why the bike paint doesn't describe the frame as Ultra-High Modulus Carbon vs. High Modulus Carbon?
> 
> In the picture for the AR4 on Felt's website (http://www.feltbicycles.com/Resources/ProductPhotos/Bikes/AR4_v3_10-09(1).jpg) , you can see the "Ultra" written on the seat tube......but my LBS AR4s don't have this...just says "High". The shop owner doesn't know why.
> 
> I've seen other 2010 AR4 pics posted on in this forum...without the "ultra" that's shown on the website.
> 
> Is this a mistake?


I noticed this in late December. Originally (2010's) AR4's were going to be Ultra High Modulus frames. The 2010 dealer catalogs list it this way as well. Something changed, I would guess it was something with production?? It would have been nice but , I don't think I (me) would have made a decision on an F3 or AR4 based on the weave. I'm not a high torque rider, I don't think I (me) could tell the difference between the weave If I did a blindfold test and had to guess which one was which. For me the decision was based on maintaining higher speeds to ride with the group ( I'm the slow one) and of course most efficent use of calories burned vs distance traveled. I believe that unless you are in the hills with no flats, the AR series frame is the hot ticket ( by the way Nebraska is a *hilly, windy place*). If I lived in Colorado I'd go with the F3.


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## Air55

UpStroke said:


> I noticed this in late December. Originally (2010's) AR4's were going to be Ultra High Modulus frames. The 2010 dealer catalogs list it this way as well. Something changed, I would guess it was something with production?? It would have been nice but , I don't think I (me) would have made a decision on an F3 or AR4 based on the weave. I'm not a high torque rider, I don't think I (me) could tell the difference between the weave If I did a blindfold test and had to guess which one was which. For me the decision was based on maintaining higher speeds to ride with the group ( I'm the slow one) and of course most efficent use of calories burned vs distance traveled. I believe that unless you are in the hills with no flats, the AR series frame is the hot ticket ( by the way Nebraska is a *hilly, windy place*). If I lived in Colorado I'd go with the F3.


Thanks again. The difference between HM and UHM probably doesn't matter too much in my world. Seems like Felt should at least update their website regarding the UHM if they decided to go with HM for the AR4. Alternatively, if it's just a paint job error, Felt should let their retailers know that the AR4 is UHM, but just neglected update the paint layout.


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## relaxmax

Funnily enough I'm making the exact same choice at the same time. I read somewhere that last year's AR4 frame could have been a bit stiffer and more lively but for 2010 the AR4 frame is the same as the 2009 AR2's. I don't have much road testing experience to know how good the AR4 really is but it would be nice to know it ended up as an improved frame in some way this year.


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## Air55

Air55 said:


> Thanks again. The difference between HM and UHM probably doesn't matter too much in my world. Seems like Felt should at least update their website regarding the UHM if they decided to go with HM for the AR4. Alternatively, if it's just a paint job error, Felt should let their retailers know that the AR4 is UHM, but just neglected update the paint layout.


For 2010 AR4 UHM carbon vs. HM carbon

VeloNews Buyers Guide Mag: HM
Felt Website: UHM
Bike Graphics: HM
Felt Catalog: UHM

And and depending on which pics are posted by forum users....some AR4 frames show "ultra" and some don't.


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## UpStroke

Superdave....Would you comment on this?
Thanks


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## sergej

Greetings from Slovenian FELT Distributor 

Here is official FELT statement:

"Dear friends,

much to our regret we found the framemanufacturer used incorrect
decals for some MY10 Carbon bikes:

Model correct wrong
MY10 AR2 UHC Nano UHM
MY10 AR4 UHM HM
MY10 AR5 UHM HM
MY10 Z4 UHM HM

IMPORTANT: the frame material is correct and in accordance with spec.

We asked them to provide correct decal sets in sufficient numbers ASAP
for the bikes that were shipped recently. We keep you informed once
the items were dispatched.

Future productions will be correctly labelled.

The pictures on the server and web will be revised shortly.
However, we cannot afford to change the pics in printed media.

Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience. Don't hesitate to contact
us if any questions."


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## UpStroke

sergej said:


> Greetings from Slovenian FELT Distributor
> 
> Here is official FELT statement:
> 
> "Dear friends,
> 
> much to our regret we found the framemanufacturer used incorrect
> decals for some MY10 Carbon bikes:
> 
> Model correct wrong
> MY10 AR2 UHC Nano UHM
> MY10 AR4 UHM HM
> MY10 AR5 UHM HM
> MY10 Z4 UHM HM
> 
> IMPORTANT: the frame material is correct and in accordance with spec.
> 
> We asked them to provide correct decal sets in sufficient numbers ASAP
> for the bikes that were shipped recently. We keep you informed once
> the items were dispatched.
> 
> Future productions will be correctly labelled.
> 
> The pictures on the server and web will be revised shortly.
> However, we cannot afford to change the pics in printed media.
> 
> Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience. Don't hesitate to contact
> us if any questions."


Thanks Sergei....:thumbsup:


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## phazelag

Wow thats too bad. Maybe thats the time delay getting some bikes here. I am pulling the trigger ASAP on a Bike. I was looking at the Z4 and AR10 both mis marked. I am not really too worried. I just want to see them in person. I finally saw an AR4 at a dealer and I didnt think to look at the markings. 

Z


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## phazelag

So the website was updated for the AR showing it is UHM. But the Z4 still shows UHM so I wonder if it is UHM?

Z


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## rhgastur

But...if I go to USA webpage, I see the AR4 is UHM (description and decals), but then, if I go to the International version (I checked the Spanish, Slovenian and International ones) I see that it is HM (description and decals)...Is Felt selling us different frames depending on the country??? The thing is that I had the dealer catalogue between my hands and there the AR4 was specified like UHM...I do not know what to think...


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## Superdave3T

rhgastur said:


> But...if I go to USA webpage, I see the AR4 is UHM (description and decals), but then, if I go to the International version (I checked the Spanish, Slovenian and International ones) I see that it is HM (description and decals)...Is Felt selling us different frames depending on the country??? The thing is that I had the dealer catalogue between my hands and there the AR4 was specified like UHM...I do not know what to think...



All AR4 frames made in 2009 are Felt's HM material.
All AR4 frames made in 2010 are Felt's UHM material.

A few Felt AR4 frames in the early production runs were made with the incorrect artwork files.

-SD


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## rhgastur

SuperdaveFelt said:


> All AR4 frames made in 2009 are Felt's HM material.
> All AR4 frames made in 2010 are Felt's UHM material.
> 
> A few Felt AR4 frames in the early production runs were made with the incorrect artwork files.
> 
> -SD


Thank you very much for your confirmation Superdave. You can't be more clear.
Nice to have you here in order to help us.
Sorry if I dissapointed you...it was never my intention.
Regards!


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## Air55

Thanks for a the help!

Tough decision, but I had my LBS order me a 54 cm F3. I went with the F3 because I _think_ it will more suitable for the weekly criteriums and hill climb races that I'd like to do. I also like the looks of the F-series frame a little better thant the AR.

Unfortunately, no F3s available right now....I was told 1 month wait is the worst case scenario.


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## huguest

I am in the same situation. Ordered a F3 two weeks ago, but will have to wait till the end of the month. Hopefully, it will be worth it!


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## Air55

whoops


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## Air55

It's been nearly 5 weeks since my LBS ordered my F3 for me and still no bike. Anyone know what's the holding everything up?

Thanks


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## huguest

I gave up on waiting for mine. They initially tole me that they would be available at the end of March, but now they are saying the end of April... I was also told that the AR4 are sold out for the year. I am picking up a Pinarello FP3 next week instead. Good luck!


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## Air55

huguest said:


> I gave up on waiting for mine. They initially tole me that they would be available at the end of March, but now they are saying the end of April... I was also told that the AR4 are sold out for the year. I am picking up a Pinarello FP3 next week instead. Good luck!


Yikes! Thanks for the update. That can't be good for business. Hopefully it is not the same situation with the F3......


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## Superdave3T

Air55 said:


> It's been nearly 5 weeks since my LBS ordered my F3 for me and still no bike. Anyone know what's the holding everything up?
> 
> Thanks


Who is your LBS, when did they place your order? What size did you order? What did your LBS report the delay was?

-SD


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## relaxmax

Superdave is that right on the AR4s being sold out for the year? 

Is there a shipment of Felt bikes imminent to the West Coast?

thanks


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## huguest

SuperDave: 
I got the information from two different shops, but I would prefer not to name them here (I am in New England). I order a F3, size 54, on 17Mar10, and was told the following on the 24th:

“…I am waiting for shipping confirmation from Felt right now, their warehouse was really backed up…” 

And on March 4th:

“…I spoke with Felt, and they are expecting the next shipment of F3s in toward the end of the month. Apparently, the shipment is about 2 weeks behind where they thought it was… they are pretty much getting 3 shipments over the next 2-3weeks that should set them up for a while…”

Then on March 29th:

“…Sorry to say that they have been pushed back to the last week in April...”

When I inquired to a different shop about the F3, and also the AR4, I was told the following (01Apr10):

“…The rebound in sales caught all the bike manufacturers off guard and we are looking at a nationwide bike supply shortage this season. I've heard of shortages at all the major brands. Talked to the sales manager at Felt on Monday and he is scramb… As luck would have it I have every size AR4 in stock but a 54! I checked with Felt and that bike is sold out for the year...”


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## rhgastur

I can understand nothing. They say they do not have more AR’s, but they offer a naked frame since a few days ago…


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## Superdave3T

relaxmax said:


> Superdave is that right on the AR4s being sold out for the year?
> 
> Is there a shipment of Felt bikes imminent to the West Coast?
> 
> thanks


I think it would depend on who your dealer is and what size you need. Where are you located? I think the last time I checked for the USA we had every AR in stock in size 56cm including AR1, AR1 Team, AR2, AR3, AR4, AR5, AR1 Framekit, and AR Framekit.

It is true that there are some models in our line up that are starting to grow thin on or have more orders pending than incomming inventory, I would think that in April we'd be able to find what you are looking for, if not in our warehouse, than on our dealers' floor.

-SD


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## Superdave3T

huguest said:


> SuperDave:
> I got the information from two different shops, but I would prefer not to name them here (I am in New England). I order a F3, size 54, on 17Mar10, and was told the following on the 24th:
> 
> “…I am waiting for shipping confirmation from Felt right now, their warehouse was really backed up…”
> 
> And on March 4th:
> 
> “…I spoke with Felt, and they are expecting the next shipment of F3s in toward the end of the month. Apparently, the shipment is about 2 weeks behind where they thought it was… they are pretty much getting 3 shipments over the next 2-3weeks that should set them up for a while…”
> 
> Then on March 29th:
> 
> “…Sorry to say that they have been pushed back to the last week in April...”
> 
> When I inquired to a different shop about the F3, and also the AR4, I was told the following (01Apr10):
> 
> “…The rebound in sales caught all the bike manufacturers off guard and we are looking at a nationwide bike supply shortage this season. I've heard of shortages at all the major brands. Talked to the sales manager at Felt on Monday and he is scramb… As luck would have it I have every size AR4 in stock but a 54! I checked with Felt and that bike is sold out for the year...”


Let me speak with the sales department and see if we can determine which shop you are talking about so we can present some options.

-SD


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## Air55

SuperdaveFelt said:


> Who is your LBS, when did they place your order? What size did you order? What did your LBS report the delay was?
> 
> -SD


I sent you a "private message" via this forum.
Thanks for your help.


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## Ray_from_SA

I WAS waiting on an F3, been told I won't see one until late May. 

Needless to say, I am thinking about other options.

The LBS is offering me an AR3 at a significant discount, but I don't like the fact that the LBS should take the hit on their profit/sales when Felt is the one not getting them the bike.


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## Air55

Ray_from_SA said:


> but I don't like the fact that the LBS should take the hit on their profit/sales when Felt is the one not getting them the bike.


Exactly. I'm trying to hold out because I want to support my LBS. Felt shouldn't be saying "end of March, then end of April, etc.." which is the case for me (probably an 8 week wait), because it puts the LBS in a bad business position....not to mention me (this is my first new bike buying experience).


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## huguest

I gave up on the F3 after about month and a half of wait, and just picked up my Pinarello FP3 (can't wait to ride it!). I bought it from the same shop who initially ordered the F3 for me.


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## rhgastur

Forgetting the AR4 and going for a BH G5 9.4. I will have the G5 next Saturday. Been waiting for the AR4 since 18th of december.


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## Superdave3T

huguest said:


> I gave up on the F3 after about month and a half of wait, and just picked up my Pinarello FP3 (can't wait to ride it!). I bought it from the same shop who initially ordered the F3 for me.



Are you in the Pac NW?


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## Ray_from_SA

Dave, is Felt aware of the sales they are losing because the lack of availability of certain models?


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## Superdave3T

Ray_from_SA said:


> Dave, is Felt aware of the sales they are losing because the lack of availability of certain models?


Yes, I/we are painfully aware.

When forecasting for growth in a global economic downturn and a domestic recession we get baffled responses as well.

Selling 12 months worth of inventory in 6 can be a good and bad thing. The good news is new 2010 bikes are arriving every day to try to keep pace with demand, and 2011 is around the corner as well.

What model are you waiting for?

-SD


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## 95zpro

Ray I got an AR5 not too long ago and love it; I know the F3 is your favorite but you might want to look at this a little closer.


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