# Upgrade from Chorus 9 speed - should I go to 10, or 11 speed separates?



## Fixt00l

Hello! I have read dozens of pages, the info is so much that my head almost collapsed for a few days :mad2: I am on a tight budget and I want to upgrade piece by piece - a full groupset or a triple crank is out of the question.
I currently have my 9 speed Chorus serviced and rebuilded to work with the new pull ratio and post-2000 rear mech.But...I do not like how it works with my only 10 speed components that I have, a Chorus CT front mech ( i have 2 of them brand new ), and my PZ Racing CR 2.1 compact crankset for Campagnolo, a 50-34.Using my newly built Guerciotti Cross Force for Audax on crappy roads, some Topeak seatpost bag ( 7 kg ) and some little bags all over the frame, I believe I will benefit from a 13-29 cassette, or even a 12-30 one.So...the big question is should I buy shifters, cassette, chain and rear derailleur / mech for 10, or 11 speed ?
I have little to no knowledge about Campagnolo stuff from different years.The best European website I found is bike-components, so I would like to buy all the gear from there.But I have no idea what...I beg you to help me.This looks like a 2010 model :

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p401/

And here...it is listed as QS, but the photo shows otherwise :

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-QS-Ergopower-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p14703/

I know 11 speed levers and rear mech are hard to match, as Campagnolo constantly makes modifications.How about 11 speed shifters ?

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Gearshift/Road-Race-Levers/?limit=24&filter_manufacturer_id=28&order=price_desc


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## Marc

Buying piece-meal you're going to spend more than just buying a group. Especially when you factor in shipping, and potential customs issues with whatever seller you work with. Further, buying 10 speed you're going to spend just as much as 11 speed probably...and end up with parts that being out of date will only be more and more difficult to replace.

Also you're bound to run into compatibility issues. Here's a post by a resident Campag wrench on BikeForums:

Campagnolo 10 speed, compatability?

Trying to keep track of all that should give you a headache.


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## Fixt00l

I am aware of that, thank you.The thing is...I have brand new TRP CX 8.4 mini V-brakes for Campagnolo, two brand-new 115.5mm ITA bottom brackets ( my CX frame and PZ Racing carbon crankset would not accept anything shorter ), two brand-new Chorus CT front mech, so I have everything I need.I do not like cassettes like the bundled 12-25, etc.Like many others, I want to choose my own stuff, and yes, I already have a headache.I just wanted to know if those particular 10 speed Record shifters & mech are decent, as I have read many reports over bad series and years of production in this forum.


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## bikerjulio

One of your links was to the old-style Record 10-speed shifters. Nothing wrong with them, but if you are on a tight budget why are you looking at Record components?

I just installed a Veloce 10-speed setup on one of my bikes and was really impressed by the ease of installation and precision of the shifting. So why not Veloce shifters, derailleurs and cassette (loose cog like you want). It shifts as well and runs as quietly as any of my Record bikes. http://forums.roadbikereview.com/campagnolo/my-2015-veloce-review-351002.html

As well, this gives you the newer shifter shape plus droopy thumb button. The ergonomics and braking power are much improved with the newer design.

These bits will be compatible with what you have.


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## Fixt00l

Because I do not like the new ergonomics and thumb button - I tested the newer Centaur, paired with Veloce rear mech and cassette.I much prefer my 1998 Chorus, that was upgraded internally in the Campag service in the UK.Now, should I upgrade it to 10 speed, the cost would be around 100 GBP, including shipping.
I have read numerous user reviews @ wiggle - people suggest that lower-end shifters do not last as nearly as much as Record, and the shifting is inferoir and less positive - I believe I noticed that when trying the brand new Centaur for a one-hour ride.Of course, Veloce is quite a bang-for-the-buck...But I still prefet the Ultra-shift and durability, FD trim, and good looks of Record components.
I have read that almost all 10-speed rear mech are identical in pull ration and the way they work.In the comment section in the bike-components listing, somebody says in German that the Record mech is 2010, an obsolete model ? Is is that bad ?


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## bikerjulio

You can't have tested a 2015 Centaur because there's no such thing - discontinued.

I have been riding only Campy shifters for a long time now and have used them all. I'm telling you that there has been an improvement with the 2015 Veloce design. You seem to want to believe every piece of random out of date nonsense you come across on the internet. There is no evidence I've read that _current_ powershift and ultrashift are much different in longevity, and I just finished telling you that the Veloce shifting was as good as anything I've experienced. And it trims the FD.

I'd also suggest that either of the current shifter designs is more reliable and longer lasting than the older g-spring design which you prefer.


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## Fixt00l

My mistake then...I tested these ones :

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Centaur-Power-Shift-Ergopower-2-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-Auslauf-p25850/

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Veloce-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p25890/

Apparantly, for us, European Union residents, this shop offers hands-down the lowest prices.I do not ride much, something like 4000 miles per year.If I was riding a lot more, I would have surely gone for the cheaper groupsets.


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## Fixt00l

Today, a mechanic thoroughly tested my setup...even with a brand new cassette, chain and front / rear derailleurs...it is the shifters fault.It was profesionally restored in UK`s Campagnolo service centre, or at least I thought it was - it does not work well and must be replaced.So, no 9 or 11 speed for me - I am quite certain I will buy 10 speed stuff now, as I like the 13-29 cassette and a 34 / 46 setup for Audax.
There are plenty of NOS Chorus / Record shifters to be found, but most of them have QS stamped on them, are they reliable ? I know what QS is, but I do not care how fast the shifting is, as I will not buy a QS-specific front derailleur - I remember some posts in this forum, where people suggest one should stay away from any QS shifters ?


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## Drew Eckhardt

Fixt00l said:


> There are plenty of NOS Chorus / Record shifters to be found, but most of them have QS stamped on them, are they reliable ? I know what QS is, but I do not care how fast the shifting is, as I will not buy a QS-specific front derailleur - I remember some posts in this forum, where people suggest one should stay away from any QS shifters ?


People confuse QS (applied to the entire Campagnolo lineup) with Escape (Veloce and Below) which only allows shifting one cog smaller per lever actuation.


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## Fixt00l

Well, I am changing to a 34 / 46 setup, my front mech is Chorus CT, so I do not care much about QS anyway.If rear shifting remains the same, I am OK with that.I found new Record medium cage mech for 229 EUR delivered...but only with carbon plate, that may wear off in time.I scavenged through European online shop for a metal one...but never found a better deal anyway.Sprockets UK warned me that a long cage Record with a double setup is a bad idea and not successful ?


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## bikerjulio

Why do think you need a new RD?

Admittedly I cannot make out from what you have written what your current or proposed drivetrain is.

If you have a short cage RD produced any time in the last 15 years it will work with either a 10 or 11-speed shifter (leaving out 2015 Chorus/Record).

A short cage RD will take up a total of 32T.

So a change to a 46-34 will mean LESS need for a new RD than the 50-34 you currently have.

46 minus 34 is 12. Leaving a theoretical spread of 20T on the cassette as within the capability of the RD. In practice it would be 12-30 if Campy 10-speed.

In all cases, the chain needs to be correctly sized, and the "H" screw adjusted as necessary.


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## Fixt00l

Because I will ride the 50 - 34 until it is worn, and a 13 - 26 cassette.I definetely want the 10 speed 13 - 29 cassette for touring with 10 kg load, which is impossible for the short cage Chorus 1998 I currently own.My 1998 pointy hoods Chorus shifters are now rebuilt with different internals, and the new indexing for post - 2000 RD.This means they do not work well with my 1998 RD anymore, not at all.Especially when changing to / from the 16t cog on a brand new cassette and a brand new chain...it is just impossible.I think I will ride with my old RD and shifters, until they die - they are problematic and cannot be sold.


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## bikerjulio

Fixt00l said:


> Because I will ride the 50 - 34 until it is worn, and a 13 - 26 cassette.I definetely want the 10 speed 13 - 29 cassette for touring with 10 kg load, which is impossible for the short cage Chorus 1998 I currently own.My 1998 pointy hoods Chorus shifters are now rebuilt with different internals, and the new indexing for post - 2000 RD.This means they do not work well with my 1998 RD anymore, not at all.Especially when changing to / from the 16t cog on a brand new cassette and a brand new chain...it is just impossible.I think I will ride with my old RD and shifters, until they die - they are problematic and cannot be sold.


9-speed was a short, awkward era for Campy.

You have been unfortunate enough to be trying to mix incompatible parts, but why go on? A minimal outlay will get you a new RD that will work now with what you have and in the future. Campagnolo Veloce Silver 10 Speed Rear Derailleur, DERAILLEURS REAR

Don't keep making the mistake of thinking that spending more will get you a more durable or better functioning RD - it won't.


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## Fixt00l

Thank you.I have already tried a brand new 9 speed Veloce RD from 2003, medium cage.It worked slightly better...I rode with it, I rode with my older RD...it is the right shifter that has some defect that cannot be repaired.I am disappointed, having paid around $ 300, incliding shipping - I expected the UK Campag service to rebuild, repair and upgrade the shifter internals and make the shifter like new.After visiting 4 of the best mechanics in my country...there is something quite wrong with the shifters.I now feel stupid for spending that amount of money - since the setup is problematic, I cannot sell it.So all I can do is ride, ride, until I wear everything off, and then upgrade to 10 speed Record.I do not mind the price differente betwen Record and Centaur.As I said, I have ridden the 10 speed Centaur and quite disliked it - many people, upgrading from Centaur to Record claim a lovely, positive shifting and I quite agree.I am stuck in a nonsese situation now.
What mileage can I expect from my freshly rebuit shifters ? I have read user reviews on Wiggle, and 3 people said that a pair of brand-new Record shifters lasts approximately 40 000 kilometers.While not much, a slow Audax rider like me will need 6 years for 40 000 km to ride.


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## Drew Eckhardt

Fixt00l said:


> What mileage can I expect from my freshly rebuit shifters ?


I needed to replace G-springs every 2-3 years even when not riding a lot of miles and would be surprised if I ever managed 10,000 miles (16,000km) on a set but stopped paying attention to distance between my purple Avocet breaking in the late 1990s and getting a Garmin in 2010.

UltraShift mechanism life seems to be indefinite, although moving the 90 cable bend from the housing to the shifter where it's tighter cut rear shift cable life in half. I went from 4000-4500 miles on G-spring shifters to 2000-2500.

Other mechanical shifters with under-tape cable routing made for hoods level with bar tops share the same problem.



> I have read user reviews on Wiggle, and 3 people said that a pair of brand-new Record shifters lasts approximately 40 000 kilometers.While not much, a slow Audax rider like me will need 6 years for 40 000 km to ride.


It depends on the mechanism (2009+ Record UltraShift, 1992-2008 G-spring) and how much you shift.


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## Drew Eckhardt

bikerjulio said:


> 9-speed was a short, awkward era for Campy.
> 
> You have been unfortunate enough to be trying to mix incompatible parts, but why go on? A minimal outlay will get you a new RD that will work now with what you have and in the future.
> 
> Don't keep making the mistake of thinking that spending more will get you a more durable or better functioning RD - it won't.




It might.

Campagnolo dropped the derailleur return spring tension in groups which used Escape and PowerShift levers. Such derailleurs will be more sensitive to housing drag.

OTOH, the least expensive rear derailleurs not paired with crippled shifters will be fine. Chorus/Record attach the cage with a bolt that's easier to remove for cleaning than the lower level C-clip, although it can take over a decade for enough gunk to accumulate before you have problems with chain tension.


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## bikerjulio

> Campagnolo dropped the derailleur return spring tension in groups which used Escape and PowerShift levers. Such derailleurs will be more sensitive to housing drag.


I believe that RD spring tension was dropped in 2009, then increased back again because of the complaints. Somewhere on the interwebs is a thread with Graeme of Velotech discussing this.

My 2015 Veloce setup is working flawlessly. I was so impressed with it I started a thread.

Could not find the Graeme quote but I did find this from Cheapskate posted a few nonths ago



> If it's of any interest, I have always used the "old style" Centaur RDs with the narrow parallelogram [from the early 2000s up to around 2010 (?)]. *But I have now also got a mid-cage "wraparound" parallelogram Veloce as well, not sure if it's 2014 or 2015 model year.
> *
> 1. Indexing is identical to the "old style" RDs.
> 
> 2. With the H-screw backed out it does lift a little higher than the "old style" RD. My "old style" RD will clear a 29t cog OK, the "wraparound" could take a few more teeth. It doesn't actually shift any better with a 29t, the "old style" shifts just fine, even with a compact chainset.
> 
> 3. It has 10 tooth wheels, the same wheels as my "old style" Centaurs.
> 
> 4. *It has a substantially stronger parallelogram spring - the spring which pulls cable through when you shift with the thumb button.
> *
> Last item might explain why I could never pass the Campag "1 kg lift test"??? My old style RDs, aged from about 2002 up to 2010 or so, will only pull about 0.6 kg. I haven't tested my "wraparound" RD but I bet it pulls 1 kg - so its spring might be nearly twice as strong??
> 
> I remember Velotech saying that some frames with internal routing had problems with cable friction, maybe the stronger spring is to solve that problem??
> 
> I can feel the difference when shifting - it takes significantly more effort on the finger paddle to make a shift. I don't like it, but it's purely personal preference. On the other hand, my winter bike frame has poor cable routing and it's always been marginal for shift quality, the "wraparound" RD does seem to take away the marginality.


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## CheapSkate

Re shifter life

I've got a 25,000 miles on one bike with 2010 (?) Ultra-Shift levers, the new shape detent disk ones. I just put a brand new out of the box shifter, same type, (that has been on my shelf since for a few years) and I can't tell the difference. So I suspect 40,000 km is a low estimate.

I can't see what would wear out on these shifters, maybe the interior of the detent disks. But I think it would take a very long time. Much longer than the G-springs?

Re RD

I swapped my winter bike to my mid-cage wraparound 2015 RD. I was having problems with a 29t cassette using the "old shape" Veloce RD. It was occasionally skipping in 29t and 26t. I think my winter bike has a short derailleur hanger, so the RD wouldn't clear the 29t. I am running 29t on my summer bike with the same RD and no problems for thousands of miles. The winter bike RD hanger is about 3-4 mm shorter than the summer bike.

The 2015 "wraparound" RD clears a 29t very easily, with the Height screw only about half way out. I bet it would clear a 32t easily. The 2015 RD seems to have solved my 29t & 26t skipping and it otherwise shifts just as well as my "old style" short cage. I do think the spring tension is higher on the new RD, it takes more effort on the finger lever and my slight cable stiction problems seem to be gone. Only 50 miles yet so early days!!

So @ OP I think the answer may be

* all 10s stuff is compatible as far as indexing goes, anything will work with anything

* the safest bet is the current generation "wraparound" RDs
- strong tension spring means they'll work with any levers and frames with non-ideal cable routing (e.g. internal routing). Some at least of the "old shape" RDs have lower spring tension, I can't speak for all versions of course
- high lift means they will work well with big cassettes e.g. 29t, 30t. The "old shape" RDs are marginal with 29t, they work well on some of my frames but not others.

So I am running 50/34 compact + 29-13 cassette on my winter bike using 2010 (?) Veloce Ultra-Shift levers and a 2015 mid cage Veloce RD and it all seems to work "perfectly". I expect I could get a short cage to work, but I don't have one of those lying around.


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## Fixt00l

Thanks ! What is a " wraparound " RD, how does it look like ? I found brand new mid-cage Record Titanium RDs for sale, I think they are from 2010 :

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p401/

Or I can make a Best offer and if the seller accepts...I can buy 9 speed shifters and keep my current setup...

1999 Campagnolo Record 9 Speed Ergopower Shifters | eBay

It is just that I have the money now to buy spares for a few years in advance, while 9 and 10 speed shifters and derailleurs are still available.I do not want 11 speed, due to the ridiculous chain and cassette prices, and limited lifespan.I like the 13-29 in 10 speed, but I do not think I would need a 12-29, even with a 46t chainring.I just spin up and when I hit 120 rpm, I let the bike coast.


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## bikerjulio

Cheap is referring to the 2009-2014 RD design that came with the introduction of 11-speed. The one you show is the 10-speed older design, 2008 or earlier.

The maximum sprocket sizes and capacities quoted in the text are incorrect and misleading.

Sorry but you continue to make a bunch of wrong assumptions:

........You do not need a mid-cage.

........There's nothing wrong with the longevity of 11-speed.

........11-speed Chain and cassette prices are not ridiculous, and the compatibility with Shimano cassettes is a big plus.

The 9-speed shifter you show is fine if you want to stay with a 9-speed setup, but for that price you could practically buy a new current group. Not the best choice for someone on a "limited budget". Mirage, Veloce, Athena and Chorus shifters of that era had identical internals to Record.


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## Fixt00l

Thanks for the advices - I am a novice, so making wrong assumptions is to be expected.Mr.CheapSkate said he had occasional skips in the 26t and 29t - maybe this is what I might get with the older Record 10 speed RD I have showed ?
My CX bike has 42 cm chainstay lenght.About the mech cage, since the price is the same, I would get the mid, over the short cage, for just in case.I am not interested in a whole groupset, as I already have brand new spare parts - cables, bottom bracket, brand new TRP CX 8.4 brakes, two brand new Chorus CT FDs, and a few brand new chains too.So buying a whole groupset is useless for me.Plus, most groupsets are offered in Europe with either 11-25 or 12-25 cassette, that I find not the best option for touring.
Note that I deeply appreciate everybody`s time and effor to help me :thumbsup::idea: By limited budget I meant that I cannot afford a brand new bike with Chorus or Record - LBS insist that I buy a whole bike and would not bother with spare parts...But hell yes, I can afford to buy spare shifters and RDs.
As for 11 speed lifespan...there are numerous threads over forums comparing the longevity of Campagnolo 10 and 11 speed setups.I hate shimaNO and I would never buy anything from them or their other brand names.Most their cassettes start with 11 and 12 cogs, that I never use anyway, I prefer spinning.And finally...The most affordable 10 speed cassette is the Veloce 13-29 for 38 EUR, while for 11 speed, there is only a Chorus one for a whopping 96 EUR.


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## bikerjulio

Cheap and I don't have the exact same opinions or experience.

My cross/gravel bike is 10-speed Centaur with the older style short cage RD (same geo as the Record you show), and running the 12-30 Centaur cassette most happily. His skipping was something other than the RD itself (short hanger?).


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## CheapSkate

bikerjulio said:


> His skipping was something other than the RD itself (short hanger?).


Yeah I think that's exactly what it was (buried in one of my posts above). 

My summer bikes work fine with 12-29 and an "old style" 2010 short cage RD. I have to wind the H screw riiiigggght out to clear the 29. But I have done thousands of miles like this, no skipping. My winter bike however skips with 12-29 and the same RD. The RD hanger does seem to be about 3-4 mm shorter on the winter bike, and I can see that the jockey wheel is very close to the 29t cog, so that probably explains it.

That's why I said in my post above that I think the "old style" short cage RD is marginal with 29t - it depends on other factors (RD hanger length, maybe other factors e.g. chain length).


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## CheapSkate

@OP

If your problem is definitely the RD, then I would spend as little as possible. As BikerJulio says, I think all 10s RDs since 2000 have the same indexing.

Are you certain your current RD will NOT work with a 10s 13-29t? Why not get a 13-29t Veloce cassette and try it? That's what I did. You might have to play with the chain length. Budget €40-60.

If your current RD doesn't index correctly, then you need a new RD. BikerJulio and I both think that any RD from 2000-2015 will work, provided it clears a 29t cog. I think the short cage 2010 model is marginal with a 29t, but the mid cage 2015 model is fine. Budget another €60 or something.

The "old style" RD I was referring to is like your Record Ti in your photo. Mine is:-
CAMPAGNOLO CENTAUR 10 SPEED REAR DERAILLEUR
I use this exact model with a short cage.

What I call the "wraparound" RD is the current 2015 model:-
Veloce Rear Derailleur - Components Campagnolo
I have this exact one with a mid cage. The parallelogram is very wide and "wraps around" the rivets, that's why I described it like that

They both work exactly the same, apart from lifting to clear a 29t - the new one does it better than the old one.

From reading your Record Ti page, I think what I said above about 29t is not relevant to the mid cage. Your mid cage Record Ti RD says ""Zähnezahl größtes Ritzel: 29" which I think is max cog: 29t. And for the short cage it says max cog: 26t. So I am trying to make an old style short cage work with a 29t and as I said, it barely lifts high enough, it depends on the bike. It sounds like the mid cage lifts higher so it should work better with a 29t.

Why not start simply and cheaply:- get a 13-29 cassette. See if it works with your chosen 10s levers and current RD. If it doesn't, identify the problem (indexing, skipping, friction, etc). Then try the cheapest option - a 2015 model mid cage Veloce RD. You might even go short cage, but maybe not for 12-30 cassette. I think it will be fine, but obviously I can't guarantee it!!


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## Fixt00l

Thanks! To clarify...I think buying a few sets of shifters and a few sets of RDs, this is why I am hesitating so much.Now...my Chorus 9 speed shifters are definetely problematic, despite being professionally restored and upgraded to work with post - 2000 RD.I have ordered and tried a brand new Veloce 9 speed mid-cage RD from 2003...I do not think it is worth it.The 1998 Chorus RD I have with replaced jockey wheels does not work flawlessly with my shifters, nor does the Veloce, but I like it better.So, I returned the Veloce to the seller.
I might go at 10 speed for touring, because I put a maximum of 12 kg load on my 11 kg CX bike.Having weak knees means I can benefit from a 29 or even a 30t, when riding that bike for Audax.Although I am not sure if the 12-30 cassette is worth it, as it is double the price, and I think I do not need a 12t cog, even if I eventually get a 46t chainring.
So...I will wear out my current problematic shifters first, and the 3 brand new 9s chains I have.The Chorus short cage RD is fine, but it needes pre-2000 shifters to index correctly.


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## CheapSkate

Good luck! It sounds like you need a major upgrade at some point, but not today!


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## Fixt00l

Thanks, everyone ! I wonder if there is any difference in shifting quality between a Veloce 13-29 and a Centaur 12-30 ? I think I can ignore the price difference.Although I quite like any bottom end I can get for climbing, I do not need a 12T, and I would miss the 16T...

12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30 

13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29


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## bikerjulio

Fixt00l said:


> Thanks, everyone ! I wonder if there is any difference in shifting quality between a Veloce 13-29 and a Centaur 12-30 ? I think I can ignore the price difference.Although I quite like any bottom end I can get for climbing, I do not need a 12T, and I would miss the 16T...
> 
> 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30
> 
> 13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29


I have run every level of 10-speed cassette. There's no difference in shifting quality.

The Veloce cogs are all separate and have a lower level of finish. The Centaur 12-30 is unique for Campy in that it is the only 10-speed cassette with the three largest cogs mounted together. 

From what you say it's probably better to try the Veloce. Is your shifter 10-speed? I could not make out from your description.


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## Fixt00l

Not yet...since I am buying new shifters, RDs, chain and cassette, I asked for an advice as to what to buy - as usual, I buy 2 from everything.It drives me nuts if I do not have a spare Campagnolo part for everything, as they are not easy to come by, and most European shops ( read : Wiggle ) sell them at ridiculous prices.
When the chainrings wear off, I will change my 34 / 50 for 33 / 46.


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## bikerjulio

If you want multiple shifting, your choices are:

2000-2008 Record, Chorus, or 2000-2006 Centaur. All had the identical "G-spring" internals.

or If you want to try the new shape which offers better ergonomics, better braking from the hoods and more hand positions, then avoid 2009 at all costs and go for 2010-11 Ultrashift Centaur or Veloce - identical.

or If you don't need multiple shifting, then Current Veloce is excellent.

With all the choices above go with a current 10-speed RD, Veloce being my suggestion. Athena if you want medium cage. There is no difference in geometry or actuation ratio.


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## Fixt00l

Well, I will definetely buy the Record shifters for their beauty and ultra-shift option.But will any 10-speed RD work fine with the ultra-shift ? Not to sound like a snob, but isn`t skimping on a RD absurd, when you have Record shifters and an el-cheapo RD...funny...I would buy the Record medium cage RD, but I fear that the carbon plate will wear off.I will buy either Veloce or Record, as only they are available at a good price in European online shops.


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## bikerjulio

Fixt00l said:


> Well, I will definetely buy the Record shifters for their beauty and ultra-shift option.But will any 10-speed RD work fine with the ultra-shift ? Not to sound like a snob, but isn`t skimping on a RD absurd, when you have Record shifters and an el-cheapo RD...funny...I would buy the Record medium cage RD, but I fear that the carbon plate will wear off.I will buy either Veloce or Record, as only they are available at a good price in European online shops.


Ultra-shift refers to the post 2009 generation, when Record went to 11. I'm assuming you are referring to the older Ergopower? When Centaur, Chorus and Record were identical internally 2000-2006.

And yes, both Cheap and I are recommending the later RD design - either Veloce or Athena as clearing a large Cassette better. It will work with the older shifters.

Like with wine, people just assume that if you pay more it must be better. Not necessarily. And the Campy line is a good example.


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## Fixt00l

Everybody in this forum is so helpful...that is worth is own weight in gold.Especially, compared to the greedy, lying LBS ! Do you mean that this RD will work as good as the Record one, for a fraction of the price, with the Ultrashift Record QS Levers ?

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Veloce-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p25890/

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p401/

I still want the fancy Record, despite the price difference...but I hesitate.I remember various sources saying that Record / Chorus are interchangeable, so are Veloce / Centaur...but Veloce RD with Record shifters ?


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## bikerjulio

We are saying that the new Veloce RD might actually work better than the old Record RD with a large cassette.

Mid cage give you no more sprocket clearance, it's a common misunderstanding. It wraps more chain. But unless you go to a triple you don't need it.

And it's not "ultrashift" if you are intent on buying an older shifter. "Ergopower"


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## CheapSkate

Agree with BJ

* I think any 10s RD will work as well as any other, the current generation ("2015") were specifically designed for big cassettes (like you want) and for modern frames, so are probably "better" for cases like yours

* I think all this stuff is mechanically identical as far as shifting goes. I think the only differences between 10s Veloce and 10s Record will be more carbon bling, less weight and maybe some friction reducing like pulleys on bearings. But the basic idea of pulling a cable and moving the pulleys won't be any different. I bet you could sneak up to a 10s Record bike, swap the RD for 10s Veloce while the rider wasn't looking, and he wouldn't notice.

* A short cage will be fine if you are sticking with 36/46 up front. If you are planning to move to 34/50 or triple in the future you will probably need a mid cage.

(small disagreement with BJ - the 2015 short cage has capacity 32t so it won't handle 34/50 chainrings plus 12-30 cassette - if you are planning that combo in the future you should get a mid cage. It's no more money and only a few grams heavier)

I have not tried the 12-30 cassette, I find the 13-29 shifts very well, is really cheap, and gives a good low granny gear. YMMV.

I would do what I've been recommending all along. You are doing something slightly experimental, so keep it cheap...

Wait for the Ribble Campagnolo sale, usually in January. Buy
* Campag 10s shifters of your choice
* Campag 10s chain, I think Campag original ones work best, but others disagree
* Campag 10s 13-29 cassette
* KMC missing chain link, make sure you get the Campagnolo specific ones
* 2015 Campag Veloce RD, short cage or mid cage depending on your future plans for compact chainrings

Total cost -> about what you were thinking of paying for that Record 2010 mid cage RD

Install carefully, in particularly get the chain length right and the H-screw setting. 

I am pretty sure this will work fantastically, so well you will be raving about it like BJ and will never think about 11s again. But of course I can't guarantee it, and you should be careful for the first few rides in case it skips or fails to shift etc.

Then after 1000 miles or so think about buying spares if you need them, or if you want wider gears, get the 12-30 cassette.

If you have a real problem, come on here, describe it, and we'll see what we can do to help.

I would start with a fairly cheap move to 10s and ride the &^%$* off it first to see if it does what you want.


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## Fixt00l

If it works better, and at that price, it must be a no - brainer.The shifters I am buying are these : https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-QS-Ergopower-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p14703/

But would the Veloce RD allow multiple upshifts and downshifts ? I did not quite inderstand what do you mean by older shifter.


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## CheapSkate

Fixt00l said:


> Everybody in this forum is so helpful...that is worth is own weight in gold.Especially, compared to the greedy, lying LBS ! Do you mean that this RD will work as good as the Record one, for a fraction of the price, with the Ultrashift Record QS Levers ?
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Veloce-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p25890/
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/de/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p401/
> 
> I still want the fancy Record, despite the price difference...but I hesitate.I remember various sources saying that Record / Chorus are interchangeable, so are Veloce / Centaur...but Veloce RD with Record shifters ?


Yes, exactly

Why not start cheap, you can always upgrade later?

I don't think the LBS is lying, they are just sticking to Campag's "rules" which (approximately) say "don't mix pre-2011 and post-2011". So they are trying to sell you a pre-2011 RD to go with your pre-2011 levers. We have all done the mixing so we know it works well.


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## Fixt00l

By lying, I mean all 3 LBS are a bloody bunch of criminals here.They will lie and insist that the sun is green ( and you must believe them ), only to sell you for a profit.One LBS insisted my De Rosa with Campagnolo Chorus was a piece of crap, and wanted me to get rid of it, and...buy a no-name cheap chinese frame with shimaNO ( hell NO ).Other LBS wanted me to buy a hybrid bike with shimaNO Claris 8 speed and insisted I am stupid ( yes, they said that ) and insisted that this new Claris is so fantastic that it shifts...well better and more precise than Campagnolo Record.Third LBS is the same, and they even go further.I have showed them dozens of printed materials proving that Campag is superior, and they said do not believe anyone else but them...a very small LBS ( OMGWTFBBQ ).I remember once a car almost hit me in the city intersection.At that particular moment, I was riding shimaNO Ultegra...and while shifting, the brake lever was unusable...and I hit the brakes too late.This is something will never happen with Campagnolo, as it is not dual, but even triple control, you have a separate lever for brakes, upshift, and downshift.
Unfortunately, Ribble is out of the question.Their prices are higher than the German website bike-components.de and their customer support is not great, and they refuse to ship to smaller countries like Bulgaria, although a member of the European Union.


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## bikerjulio

Fixt00l said:


> If it works better, and at that price, it must be a no - brainer.The shifters I am buying are these : https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-QS-Ergopower-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p14703/
> 
> But would the Veloce RD allow multiple upshifts and downshifts ? I did not quite inderstand what do you mean by older shifter.


By "older shifter" we are referring to the previous generation - pre 2009 design. Which is like the Record shifter you linked to. Chorus is *identical* internally and better value.

Multiple shifts happen at the shifter - nothing to do with the RD which is just a dumb parallelogram and springs. So yes again, a current Veloce RD will work fine with that.

Cheap is correct on the chain wrap issue. A 12-30 combined with 50/34 gives a total 34T wrap needed for full operation. It's easy to make it work safely though with a short cage RD by sizing the chain for the big-big combo. The chain will lose tension if you try to use the 34-12, but nothing will break and you shouldn't be cross-chaining like that anyway.

Or just buy a medium cage Veloce RD.


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## CheapSkate

Fixt00l said:


> But would the Veloce RD allow multiple upshifts and downshifts ? I did not quite inderstand what do you mean by older shifter.


The multiple up & down shifts are completely inside the lever, nothing to do with the RD at all.

I am not sure whether your QS levers support multiple up and down shifts, I am not familiar with them. But if your levers do multiple up & down, the RD will be fine. 

The RD is not complicated. The cable pulls (e.g.) 2 mm, the RD moves the pulleys (e.g.) 3 mm, that's called the actuation ratio. The lever decides how many mm of cable gets pulled in or let out. If you have a multiple shift lever, you can go click-click-click on the thumb button and let out (e.g.) 6 mm of cable, the RD moves by (e.g.) 9 mm.

The actuation ratio is usually different between manufacturers, and sometimes different between generations (e.g. 10s and 11s).

Each manufacturer has a different actuation ratio (SRAM, Campag, Shimano). That's the main reason why mixing stuff from different manufacturers is so difficult.

Some systems from the same manufacturer have different actuation ratios (e.g. for Campag:- 2015 Record/Chorus 11s is different to pre-2015 11s. And I think pre-2001 9s was different to 10s, but I am not an expert)

But AFAIK all the 10s Campag stuff had the same actuation ratio from its introduction (2001?) up to today, so any Campag 10s RD should work with any Campag 10s lever.

But of course there are other factors as we have discussed, like the largest cog the RD will handle. The newer design RD handles bigger cogs better than the older design.

On my Campag bikes I started with 2001 (?) levers and a 2001 (?) RD. Then 2010 levers and a 2001 RD. Now 2010 levers and a 2015 RD. They all shift exactly the same. So I am pretty confident of this.


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## Fixt00l

Bringing the thread back, hoping it would be useful for other people...as Campagnolo marketing people behave like a bunch of criminal, confusing people to believe that pull ratio and other stuff has changed...I am placing my order in a few weeks.
So, I have 10 speed carbon compact crank from PZ RACING with 110 BCD, a 34-46, but I even consider a 33t chainring - I love hight cadence and bail-out gears.Using a 10 speed Campagnolo Chorus CT FD, I have two of them.
I decided to stretch the budget further, but stay with 10 speed, due to perfectly cheap cassettes and chains.For now, the best bang for the € for a European guy like me seems to be found in German online shops.I have chosen the bundle of a Veloce 13-29 and a Veloce chain, I will even buy two :

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Veloce-Kassette-Veloce-Kette-10-fach-Verschleissset-p49424/"

Now I have to choose only a RD, and shifters.Reading that a 10s RD works with 11s setup, I am even more tempted to upgrade.Is it worthy to get 11 speed Chorus shifters with 11 speed Athena ör Potenza RD ?

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shifting/Road-Race-Rear-Derailleur/?filter_manufacturer_id=28&order=price_asc&limit=48


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## CheapSkate

I think Campagnolo has confused you again! I understand that the pull ratio changed between Athena and Potenza, so Athena will work with pre-2015 (2016?) Chorus levers and Potenza may (?) work with post 2015 (2016?).

Basically my understanding is the new gruppos with the four arm chainset and "Embrace" RD are not compatible with the old style five arm spider and "conventional" RD.

I have not heard of anyone who has confirmed this in practice, it is just what I/we have been told by Campagnolo.

I have not heard any confirmation about whether Potenza RD is compatible with Chorus shifters. My guess would be probably, but it could be an expensive experiment by you. If you asked that specific question on these forums I expect someone knows.

I keep looking at Potenza or Chorus but they seem horribly expensive to me - 2x or 3x the price of Veloce. I'm sure they are good, but Veloce is really good & I don't need 1 extra gear that badly.


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## Marc

CheapSkate said:


> I think Campagnolo has confused you again! I understand that the pull ratio changed between Athena and Potenza, so Athena will work with pre-2015 (2016?) Chorus levers and Potenza may (?) work with post 2015 (2016?).
> 
> Basically my understanding is the new gruppos with the four arm chainset and "Embrace" RD are not compatible with the old style five arm spider and "conventional" RD.
> 
> I have not heard of anyone who has confirmed this in practice, it is just what I/we have been told by Campagnolo.
> 
> I have not heard any confirmation about whether Potenza RD is compatible with Chorus shifters. My guess would be probably, but it could be an expensive experiment by you. If you asked that specific question on these forums I expect someone knows.
> 
> *I keep looking at Potenza or Chorus but they seem horribly expensive to me - 2x or 3x the price of Veloce. I'm sure they are good, but Veloce is really good & I don't need 1 extra gear that badly.*


Chorus is a very different group from Veloce. It isn't just about one gear and 10-11 speed. It is about single versus multiple shifts. Also the shifts are quicker and cleaner. Also none of that powertorque crank idiocy that requires a crank puller as expensive as the crank itself to service the crank.

Any top-tier bicycle transmission is going to be very different from a bottom-tier. Both in features and in price. Ultegra is much nicer than Sora. Although Campag does make it harder than it should with goofy cross-compatibility exclusions year to year.


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## Fixt00l

Thanks, gentlemen...you made it easier for me.So, low-tier groups are out for me, and I will buy either Chorus or Record, either 10 or 11 speed, depending on price and availability.Now, if I buy 11s Chorus shifters...they are slightly cheaper than 10s Record.Can 11s Chorus shifters work on a 10 speed drivetrain ? All I need to choose now is shifters and RD, as I have everything else - 13-29 Veloce cassette, a Chorus CT FD, and a few 10 speed chains, and my PZ Racing carbon compact crank, 34 - 46.Chorus 11s shifters are 240 EUR, and 10s Record ones are 260 EUR.
I would not buy Veloce or Centaur.I am sorry, but they are quite horrible - two of my friends have the new versions on their bikes.Although good bang for the buck, I prefer Chorus or Record.


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## bikerjulio

Fixt00l said:


> Thanks, gentlemen...you made it easier for me.So, low-tier groups are out for me, and I will buy either Chorus or Record, either 10 or 11 speed, depending on price and availability.Now, if I buy 11s Chorus shifters...they are slightly cheaper than 10s Record.*Can 11s Chorus shifters work on a 10 speed drivetrain ?* All I need to choose now is shifters and RD, as I have everything else - 13-29 Veloce cassette, a Chorus CT FD, and a few 10 speed chains, and my PZ Racing carbon compact crank, 34 - 46.Chorus 11s shifters are 240 EUR, and 10s Record ones are 260 EUR.
> I would not buy Veloce or Centaur.I am sorry, but they are quite horrible - two of my friends have the new versions on their bikes.Although good bang for the buck, I prefer Chorus or Record.


Since you have a 10-speed cassette, it might be a good idea to buy 10-speed shifters as well.


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## Fixt00l

I have not placed my order yet...I have a FD, Chorus 10s, and a 10s compact 34-46.The rest of the stuff is 9 speed, old and problematic - I am getting rid of it.
So, I have to choose first 10, or 11 speed, and only then buy cassette and chain.I have a few 10 speed chains, that can easily go to my friends` bikes.Looking over the forums...somehow I could not figure out how many miles can I get out of 10 or 11 speed cassette, riding in the dry only ( no winter, mud, or rain riding - I have a singlespeed bike for that ).Nor could I find how many miles can I get from a Campagnolo 10 / 11 speed chains...can you help me decide, please ?


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## bikerjulio

Well, 11-speed has been around for a long time now and to date I don't recall seeing anyone suggest that it wears faster than 10.

When it comes to shifters, you are resistant to Veloce as the 10-speed option although the 2015 version was a big improvement.

I believe that the Ultrashift shifter design was a big improvement, both in ergonomics and durability over the old G-spring shifters, therefore the logical conclusion is 11-speed Chorus. To work with your FD you will need a 2014 version as 2015 are said to be only compatible with matching derailleurs. Buy new stock, not used, is my suggestion as you don't want to end up with an early production 2009 version.


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## Fixt00l

Thanks, Mr. Julio.Since I have a spare 10s Chorus compact FD, I guess it would be better to buy 10s Record QS shifters...The shop gave me 3% discount, so they are down to 252 EUR :

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-QS-v-h-Set-Ergopower-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p14703/

Then I will buy a 10s Veloce cassette 13-29 and a 10s chain combo...But...the big question is...which derailleur, be it 10 or 11 speed ? The shop seems to offer plenty of options :

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shifting/Road-Race-Rear-Derailleur/?filter_manufacturer_id=28&order=price_asc&limit=24


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## bikerjulio

The obvious choice there is Veloce. The Potenza/Chorus/Record/SR options are all the new style and officially not compatible with your old shifters.

But for the lettering the Veloce and Athena are identical.


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## Fixt00l

Thanks, it seems that for the 13-29 cassette, my only 10s choices are the Veloce, and the Record 10s.I have heard that carbon RD plates wear...and although it would be very nice to be a snob with a carbon Record RD...eventually, the letters would come off.Would the Record RD offer any improvement in shifting over the Veloce one ? One of the reviewers says that this is a 2010 Record Titanium Model :

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-10-fach-p401/

But I got no clue from which year are the shifters...

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-QS-v-h-Set-Ergopower-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p14703/


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## bikerjulio

It's your money, but the Veloce RD will do just as good a job.

As for the Record 10-speed shifters, they were superseded in 2009 but I believe Campy continued to manufacture them, and may still be for all I know.


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## Fixt00l

Are these the new Veloce shifters you were talking about ? You mentioned improvements...what exactly are they ? I see a different thumb shifter shape - I never shift in the drops, somehow I cannot understand people that did not do their homework and did not shift to a harder gear before going to the drops.

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Veloce-v-h-Set-Power-Shift-Ergopower-2-10-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p40640/


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## bikerjulio

Yes.

The thumb button upshifts once for each push. The finger lever gets up to 3 gears I believe.

I don't know exactly what Campy did, but my 2015 Veloce shifts better than my 2013 Athena. Both Powershift. Plus it's the "new" (now 8 years old), shape. Stronger braking leverage from the hoods too.


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## Fixt00l

I remember forum members that were mad at Campagnolo for making 11 speed stuff incompatible, year after year.So, even if I go for a 11 speed RD and shifters...they might not work ? My LBS are die-hard shimaNO fans and refuse to do anything more complicated on a Campagnolo setup :-(

So, compatibility-wise... these or these shifters...

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Chorus-v-h-Set-Ultra-Shift-Ergopower-2-11-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p41098/

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-v-h-Set-Ultra-Shift-Ergopower-2-11-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p41097/

...with this or this RD ?

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Athena-Black-Schaltwerk-11-fach-p29867/

They say this two RD need 2015 or newer shifters...

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Chorus-Schaltwerk-11-fach-p41126/

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-11-fach-p41125/


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## bikerjulio

Fixt00l said:


> I remember forum members that were mad at Campagnolo for making 11 speed stuff incompatible, year after year.So, even if I go for a 11 speed RD and shifters...they might not work ? My LBS are die-hard shimaNO fans and refuse to do anything more complicated on a Campagnolo setup :-(
> 
> So, compatibility-wise... these or these shifters...
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Chorus-v-h-Set-Ultra-Shift-Ergopower-2-11-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p41098/
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-v-h-Set-Ultra-Shift-Ergopower-2-11-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p41097/
> 
> ...with this or this RD ?
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Athena-Black-Schaltwerk-11-fach-p29867/
> 
> *No not this RD*
> 
> They say this two RD need 2015 or newer shifters...
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Chorus-Schaltwerk-11-fach-p41126/
> 
> https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-Schaltwerk-11-fach-p41125/
> 
> *Yes, either of those*




*Plus the matching FD*


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## Fixt00l

Thanks ! Which of those ? The Chorus is 75 EUR, I wonder if it is worth it...Is there any improvement in shifting...

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shifting/Road-Race-Front-Derailleur/?filter_manufacturer_id=28&order=price_asc&limit=24


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## bikerjulio

You can clearly see the difference in the length of the lever with the newer FD's. The Potenza would appear to be the new design also.


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## Fixt00l

So which one should I get...the Chorus matching one, or the cheapest 11s FD, the Athena, that costs more than 2x less ?


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## bikerjulio

spot the difference?


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## Fixt00l

I think so, yes, thank you all for your time, I appreciate.My last question will be for the 10 speed Record QS shifters.Can the newer design Veloce work with multiple upshifts and downshifts, or do I need a Choris / Record 10s RD for that ? 
I remember people stocking, when the Centaur Ultra shift brifters were discontinued.Many people said they bought a few pairs, that will last for long years to come.I plan to do the same, and buy at least 2 pairs of Record 10s shifters.But 2x Veloce RD is far cheaper than 2x Record Titaniun RD...?


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## bikerjulio

> Can the newer design Veloce work with multiple upshifts and downshifts,


.

I just answered this question.

To expand on this though, I'm going to argue that there are benefits to the "one upshift per push" Veloce or Athena shifters.

With Chorus when I want 2 upshifts, I push and *hope* I did it enough. With Veloce I push the button twice quickly, and I'm *certain*.


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## Fixt00l

So, I guess it comes down to habits...I can upshift 2, 3, 4 or 5 times ( especially on those nasty short uphills after a descend, following another, and another descend and uphill ), with no error at all.It is intuitive for me, like second nature, I cannot live without it.Before the Chorus, I had Ultegra ( yuck !!! nervous, not smooth shifting ).
I have read dozens of reviews on wiggle.com from customers, who bought Veloce, and felt sorry for skimping - they say Chorus shifts lovely and positive, and Veloce is not durable - the ratchet fails easily in a year or two.Some customers said they have broken a second set of shifters.


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## bikerjulio

> I have read dozens of reviews on wiggle.com from customers, who bought Veloce, and felt sorry for skimping


Total rubbish. Wrong. Troll talk. Bye.

Campagnolo Veloce Power Shift 10 Speed Ergopower Lever Set Reviews | Gear Levers & Shifters Reviews | wiggle.com


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## Fixt00l

I am so sorry, sir, but I am no troll at all, and I did not mean to offend anyone, let alone people who are helping me with advices.Don`t forget that I am not a native English speaker...I do not remember all the reviews I have read, as I browsed reviews through dozens of online shops, but here is one of them :

Campagnolo Veloce Power-Shift 10sp Ergo Shifters | Chain Reaction Cycles

And about Power Shift, I have read some bad reviews, compared to Chorus / Record, on Wiggle, but it was about Centaur, so my bad...














If I browse more, I will find more, but again, I do not mean to offend anyone.And I do not find those reviews on Wiggle anymore - I remember reading them years ago, so they totally must have been about the previous version that did not have this style of thumb shifters  I have nothing against Veloce, I totally love the design of the black RD, I prefer it to Record Carbon any day ! This is why I asked in the thread if it is a fit companion for the Record shifters.I apologize for any inconvenience.


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## DaveG

bikerjulio said:


> .
> 
> I just answered this question.
> 
> To expand on this though, I'm going to argue that there are benefits to the "one upshift per push" Veloce or Athena shifters.
> 
> With Chorus when I want 2 upshifts, I push and *hope* I did it enough. With Veloce I push the button twice quickly, and I'm *certain*.


Maybe the action on the newer stuff is different (more Shimano-like). I have two bikes with mid-2000 Centaur ergo-power and doing multiple shifts is very reliable and consistent. However, I suspect the action on the older levers is much stiffer and more deliberate than the new stuff. I have newer Athena and Veloce (one shift) and I really do miss doing multiple shifts with these. I think it is especially beneficial with Compact set-ups when a shift in the front requires multiple shifts in the rear


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## Fixt00l

Thanks for the input, Mr Dave.I have Chorus 9 speed shifters from 1998 ( pointy hoods ), that were rebuild in the UK service centre of Campagnolo, to work with post-2000 RD.So I guess they are close to your shifters.And yes, I use a compact, but found the 16t gap ridiculous, and I changed to a Rotor NoQ 46t chainring.And I am buying a Specialites TA Zephyr chainring ( 33T ) for 110 BCD, to squeeze every bit of granny gear I can.This is how I can stay most of the time in the 46t, and only occasionaly would I drop down to the smaller chainring.I have a short cage RD from 1998 that is not a good match for my rebuilded shifters ( that are problematic and still skip shifts ), and the situation is awful.I have made only 500 miles so far and I will ride the damn thing until its spring fall to the ground ( like they did last time, before the rebuild.I bought them used and clocked about 9500 miles on them ).


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## Fixt00l

Hello, gents...I have been busy, assembling and expensive bike, and now my questions still stand...I have just had the wonderful idea of combining Chorus 11 speed shifters, 2015 or later, with the new Potenza RD and 11-32 cassette, as I do not like the Powershift mechanism and I do not want the Potenza shifters.Since I do not bike much, and the parts will not see heavy use, I will not have to replace them often and maybe the cost is acceptable.Do you think this will work, or should I get the new 2017 shiters that are claimed to be compatible with all 11 speed groups from Campagnolo ?

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Potenza-11-Kletter-Kit-Modell-2017-p49945/

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Lenkerendschalthebel-v-h-Set-Modell-2017-p49925/

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Chorus-v-h-Set-Ultra-Shift-Ergopower-2-11-fach-Brems-Schaltgriffe-p41098/


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## CheapSkate

Fixt00l said:


> ...I have just had the wonderful idea of combining Chorus 11 speed shifters, 2015 or later, with the new Potenza RD and 11-32 cassette ... Do you think this will work,


You are not the only person to have this wonderful idea. I have seen at least one other person ask the same question. I am interested as well. But I have not seen an answer. I think your only choices are
- ask Campagnolo this question; or
- buy the components and try it; or 
- wait until someone else tries it and gives us a report.

I think Campagnolo is on summer shutdown at the moment, but I expect they will open again in September, so you might have to wait a while for an answer. Campagnolo Italy has been pretty helpful to me in the past.

If you get an answer please let us know!!!


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## DaveG

CheapSkate said:


> You are not the only person to have this wonderful idea. I have seen at least one other person ask the same question. I am interested as well. But I have not seen an answer. I think your only choices are
> - ask Campagnolo this question; or
> - buy the components and try it; or
> - wait until someone else tries it and gives us a report.
> 
> I think Campagnolo is on summer shutdown at the moment, but I expect they will open again in September, so you might have to wait a while for an answer. Campagnolo Italy has been pretty helpful to me in the past.
> 
> If you get an answer please let us know!!!


I asked this question a week or two ago. After some reading on Campy's site I got the "impression" that they were not compatible. I decided just to buy a complete Potenza group and live with Powershift. If someone wants to lend me some Chorus shifters, I would be happy to test it


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## CheapSkate

@DaveG, I'd be very interested in a review of Potenza, in particular how that funny new RD performs with the "Embrace" widget inside it. And the self extractor on the crank - does it change the Q factor? And how you get on with the single click Powershift. And how is FD trim? And any weight weenie stuff you care to measure. And.... well everything really, you get the idea! Cheers [/thread hijack]


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## DaveG

CheapSkate said:


> @DaveG, I'd be very interested in a review of Potenza, in particular how that funny new RD performs with the "Embrace" widget inside it. And the self extractor on the crank - does it change the Q factor? And how you get on with the single click Powershift. And how is FD trim? And any weight weenie stuff you care to measure. And.... well everything really, you get the idea! Cheers [/thread hijack]


I will post a review once I get it assembled. I did pull out all the components and weigh them on a triple beam balance. Here are the actual weights I measured

Bottom Bracket cups (English) 70
Crankset	(175) 778
brakes 318
chain 260
shifters (with cables) 403
front derailleur 96
rear derailleur (medium cage) 211
11-32t cassette 338


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## Fixt00l

I am glad I am not boring all of you, forum members  I got the idea, looking at the Surly website, their touring bikes with 46 cm chainstays use Microshift bar-end shifters.Surly insist that they have the best longevity, reliability and simple maintenance.The German website lists both 10 and 11 speed versions.Somehow I want the 11 speed ones to be backwards compatible with 2015 and newer 10 speed drivetrains, so I can upgrade anytime, or in an emergency...
About Potenza, I also thought of Chorus shifters, and Potenza everything else...this is a win-win situation, since Potenza`s RD is significantly cheaper...I am not sure if I can life with the fugly thumb button desing, thought.I never change gears from the drops, this is a very dumb idea for non-racing, non-professional cycling.


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## CheapSkate

@DaveG

I am also intrigued whether it is truly not compatible with 2015 and earlier stuff. I compared the RD photos on the Campag website and it does look to me like the parallelogram is longer & cable attachment point has moved... but it's hard to say.

If you get a moment to slap your Potenza RD on a 2015 or earlier setup (10s or 11s) I'd be really interested in the results!!


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## Fixt00l

Sorry, double post...


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## Fixt00l

Hello! I am back - a high-speed crash threw me out of the sport for a long time, and I am still recovering. It was totally my fault, as I had been warned about that descent :-( I quite hope you all are doing OK, without accidents / injuries. I now have more questions, since Campagnolo has introduced affordable 11s options. So the question should I go for 10s, or 11s remains...
This time I want to do the best for my bike, so no skimping. All my option are within the budget, and I do not ride that much, so money would not be a problem. I realized that only when I get the best possible scenario, only then will I ride, instead of reading forums everyday. I currently have a Centaur ITA BB (the shorter Chorus BB made the chainset rub in the frame), a PZ Racing Carbon CT chainset with 34 /46, and a Veloce 9s 13-26 in the back, and the short cage 9s RD from 1998. The Chorus shifters from 1998 had been rebuilt and are now upgradeable to 10s, I mated them to the spectacular TRP CX 8.4 Sram / Campagnolo mini V-brakes. The Chorus RD had been checked in the UK service centre and the pulleys had been replaced. This setup has about 1000 miles on it. So it looks like I have 3 options :

1. Do not upgrade - just ride some 10 000 miles, until my repaired, like-new setup totally wears out. A local coach insist that for Audax, a 34x26 on a 11 kg bike is totally fine even for a 10-mile steep climb. He even insists that I HTFU, climbing at 34x15. By the way, I will buy the TA Specialites 33t inner ring 

2. Send the right lever to the UK service centre, to be upgraded to 10sp. This will match the two Chorus CT FDs that I own ( I bought two, so I can have a spare one ). And buy the Veloce RD in medium cage, and a 13-29. Not a big upgrade over the 9s 13-26, it will only add a 29t cog, nothing else. The local team coach recommends it instead of the 12-30, as the gradation of the easier gears is closer than on the 12-30. All in all, HTFU again  I tried my 9s Chorus levers with a 10s Veloce RD, and the Ultrashift worked fine. In some forums, experts claim the Power Shift RDs have a weaker spring that returns differently, and shifting would decrease over time ? The local coach insists tourist should not use Ultrashift, they should HTFU, and improve cadence and muscular power by carefully shifting 1 gear at a time, and avoid stressing the legs. I know a quite a fast local rider with a very high-end Cippolini with SR11, who also does not use the Ultrashift feature. On the other hand, I tried on other bikes the Veloce Ultrashift levers, and the Centaur 10s Power-shifts...and those smaller buttons are not my cup of tea. I am perfectly aware of the advantages of those affordable shifters, but I do not like them.

3. The more future-proof option is to either buy Potenza 11s levers, medium cage RD and chain, and Centaur 12-32 cassette ( it has the 16T that the 11-32 lacks ). Some people report this is the best shifting mechanical groupset that Campagnolo has to offer. Only that I do not know if that setup will work with the TRP CX 8.4 brakes, the 10s chainset with the 10s Chorus CT FD, and the Centaur 115.5 BB... Or buy Chorus 11s shifters and a medium cage Chorus HO RD for the 12-32 for better shifting quality ( not using the Ultra-shift feature ).


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## DaveG

Fixt00l said:


> Hello! I am back - a high-speed crash threw me out of the sport for a long time, and I am still recovering. It was totally my fault, as I had been warned about that descent :-( I quite hope you all are doing OK, without accidents / injuries. I now have more questions, since Campagnolo has introduced affordable 11s options. So the question should I go for 10s, or 11s remains...
> This time I want to do the best for my bike, so no skimping. All my option are within the budget, and I do not ride that much, so money would not be a problem. I realized that only when I get the best possible scenario, only then will I ride, instead of reading forums everyday. I currently have a Centaur ITA BB (the shorter Chorus BB made the chainset rub in the frame), a PZ Racing Carbon CT chainset with 34 /46, and a Veloce 9s 13-26 in the back, and the short cage 9s RD from 1998. The Chorus shifters from 1998 had been rebuilt and are now upgradeable to 10s, I mated them to the spectacular TRP CX 8.4 Sram / Campagnolo mini V-brakes. The Chorus RD had been checked in the UK service centre and the pulleys had been replaced. This setup has about 1000 miles on it. So it looks like I have 3 options :
> 
> 1. Do not upgrade - just ride some 10 000 miles, until my repaired, like-new setup totally wears out. A local coach insist that for Audax, a 34x26 on a 11 kg bike is totally fine even for a 10-mile steep climb. He even insists that I HTFU, climbing at 34x15. By the way, I will buy the TA Specialites 33t inner ring
> 
> 2. Send the right lever to the UK service centre, to be upgraded to 10sp. This will match the two Chorus CT FDs that I own ( I bought two, so I can have a spare one ). And buy the Veloce RD in medium cage, and a 13-29. Not a big upgrade over the 9s 13-26, it will only add a 29t cog, nothing else. The local team coach recommends it instead of the 12-30, as the gradation of the easier gears is closer than on the 12-30. All in all, HTFU again  I tried my 9s Chorus levers with a 10s Veloce RD, and the Ultrashift worked fine. In some forums, experts claim the Power Shift RDs have a weaker spring that returns differently, and shifting would decrease over time ? The local coach insists tourist should not use Ultrashift, they should HTFU, and improve cadence and muscular power by carefully shifting 1 gear at a time, and avoid stressing the legs. I know a quite a fast local rider with a very high-end Cippolini with SR11, who also does not use the Ultrashift feature. On the other hand, I tried on other bikes the Veloce Ultrashift levers, and the Centaur 10s Power-shifts...and those smaller buttons are not my cup of tea. I am perfectly aware of the advantages of those affordable shifters, but I do not like them.
> 
> 3. The more future-proof option is to either buy Potenza 11s levers, medium cage RD and chain, and Centaur 12-32 cassette ( it has the 16T that the 11-32 lacks ). Some people report this is the best shifting mechanical groupset that Campagnolo has to offer. Only that I do not know if that setup will work with the TRP CX 8.4 brakes, the 10s chainset with the 10s Chorus CT FD, and the Centaur 115.5 BB... Or buy Chorus 11s shifters and a medium cage Chorus HO RD for the 12-32 for better shifting quality ( not using the Ultra-shift feature ).


Well, since you said no skimping I would go with option 3. Mixing parts is always a frustrating crap shoot. You can probably find a complete Potenza group in Europe for less than 850 euros. As far as the brakes I dont think the brake pull has changed so it "should" be OK if it worked before. BTW, I think that HTFU is great advice (unless training for Paris-Roubaix). Get the gears you are comfortable with


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## Fixt00l

After countless hours of browsing, I found Athena 11s shifters and RD, all in Aluminium. I realized that I do not want plastic polymer bits - some people in this forum complained about the plastic bits in Potenza shifters and RD. A friend of mine has the highest-end SR11, and his carbon paddle that sits behind the brake lever snapped... I am curious about the shifting quality difference between Athena and Potenza. I even read that Athena long cage RD can take the new 32t cassettes. But I remember that some mechanics claim that a Campagnolo long RD does not work well with dual chainsets ? Here`s what I found so far :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Athena-11-Speed-Rear-Derailleur-Long-Cage-Black/182587156218?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Athena-Power-Shift-Alu-Ergopower/112830357556?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


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## DaveG

Fixt00l said:


> After countless hours of browsing, I found Athena 11s shifters and RD, all in Aluminium. I realized that I do not want plastic polymer bits - some people in this forum complained about the plastic bits in Potenza shifters and RD. A friend of mine has the highest-end SR11, and his carbon paddle that sits behind the brake lever snapped... I am curious about the shifting quality difference between Athena and Potenza. I even read that Athena long cage RD can take the new 32t cassettes. But I remember that some mechanics claim that a Campagnolo long RD does not work well with dual chainsets ? Here`s what I found so far :
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Athena-11-Speed-Rear-Derailleur-Long-Cage-Black/182587156218?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Athena-Power-Shift-Alu-Ergopower/112830357556?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649


I have both Athena (2013-ish) and Potenza groups. I don't think there is all that much difference in shifting performance, although Potenza will claim the the "Embrace technology" is the schit. I do prefer the "droopy" thumb shifter on Potenza as you can shift faster. Athena pre-dates the ability to use the 32t cassette so I do not think that will work. In fact, Campy claims the all the Potenza shifters and levers are not compatible with the rest of the line. I use the Potenza 32t cassette on my Lynskey and it works very well. Athena has the advantage that the silver shifters use aluminum for both the brake and shifter levers, making it a bit more retro looking. Potenza uses a composite for the shift lever


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## Fixt00l

I am also worried about longevity. Plastic or carbon levers are more prone to breaking, and losing their finish. Somehow I trust the all-metal levers and paddles more...On the other hand, I adore the way my 9s Chorus levers shift, although they are too slow and sometimes miss ( after being broken and rebuilt in Campag UK service centre ). I will not use the Ultrashift feature, as I am learining to ride in a different way, to improve cadence, but is it true that the Powershift mechanism is spongy and buttery, compared to the crisp, quick and clean Ultrashift ( speaking about single shifts only ) ?


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## Fixt00l

Cheapskate had asked me to share information about 32t, should I learn anything new. Campagnolo`s official website says you need a post-2015 medium cage RD from either groupset. And here`s what a famous technician has to say about it :

https://www.bikeforums.net/19646123-post17.html


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## Fixt00l

Well, since I am successfully recovering after some quite serious orthopedic problems that lastet for years, I am happy to say that I won`t get surgery. I started visiting a renowned fitness coach, changed my life completely - I cook my own, healthy food, I bought dozens of kilograms of protein / amino-acids, and for the first time in my life, I moved out to a very nice place, that was built just 3 years ago. Best of all - it has an awesome, roomy basements. My first thought was - I am buying two more bikes, so a total of 4!!!
Back to this thread, I finally scored a decent deal for a used Campagnolo Chorus medium cage RD. Mr. Graeme was kind enough to explain that upgrading my 9-speed Ergo to 10 speed would cost just above 100 GBP. I think this is fair, and checking the RD and replacing the pulleys is a good idea, too. I still fancy rebuilds - less waste, better price savings, and I want aluminium levers and paddles. So, I use a Veloce 13-26 cassette in 9s, and I`d be able to use a 13-29 Veloce in 10s. I never use the 11-12 cogs, and I even rarely use the 13, as I amin the process of improving my cadence. Riding downhill on quite a bad asphalt, spinning like crazy resulted in precisely 69,96 km/h, which I find plenty for Audax. I am happy that the 11s Centaur 12-32 cassette has a 16T, instead of the 11T cog. I would not miss it for the world, this is why I abandoned the idea of buying a 10s Centaur 12-30 cassette.
When I asked Mr.Graeme for his advice, he said he`d just buy 11s Chorus parts, if he was me. This seems like the obvious option, but I have 3 Chorus CT FDs, I payed 50 EUR for each of them, and I am afraid I won`t be able to use my PZ RACING COMPACT CARBON CHAINSET. It is for 10s, and it was not easy to find quality 34-46 chainrings in 110 BCD. This stops me for going 11s, and I do not know if I will be able to use my 3 sets of Ultrashift cables, part number CG-ER600R...The other thing that stops me is durability. I quite like the aluminium Potenza in silver, but a little browsing showed complaints about defects after just a few thousand miles for both Potenza and Chorus 11. Somehow I do not trust the newer design, nor do I like the feel of carbon levers. What are your thoughts, gents?


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