# Sitz Problems



## Thomas10 (Jun 4, 2017)

Hi all,

I took up semi-serious cycling about a year ago. It's been great. I usually ride twice during the week for about 1-1.5 hrs with a 2-3 hr ride on the weekend. I've gotten fitter, faster, and had lots of fun. My problem is that I just can't spend more than a couple of hours in the saddle without getting really uncomfortable. 

I have a Giant Advanced Defy and rode with the stock saddle for a few months. I did improve my saddle endurance as I road more but I noticed that I was getting numb junk. So I tried an ISM saddle but didn't care for it (maybe didn't give it enough time.) Then I went for a Pro Griffon with a cut out. It does reduce the numbness - it still occurs but less often - but feels like I'm sitting on a brick after 2 hours. 

Ive basically capped all my rides at 3 hours due to this issue, which is fine, but my club mates frequently go on rides much longer than that and I'd like to be able to join them sometimes. But I feel like no matter how fit I get, my "taint" will never be up for the challenge. 

I've had a professional bike fit and tried three saddles. I wear decent Pearl Izumi padded shorts. What is my problem? Do I just need more saddle time to toughen up down there? How long does it take to do that? Are there other strategies I can try?


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

Could be a few things, including having to go through more saddles. Seat width, shape, and padding all can figure in a great deal where fit is concerned. 

Have you tried having the nose of the saddle tilt up a bit instead of keeping it level? Seems counter-intuitive but it could help.

I was having this problem when I sat anywhere BUT a saddle, save for longer rides. Answer to my problems ended up being pelvic floor dysfunction, a condition where the pelvic floor muscles are in spasm. The initial riding actually relaxes the muscles, but eventually they began to tighten up as the ride goes on.

I've used Selle Italia Flow saddles and Specialized Romin's, two completely different saddle shapes, but both work well for me.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

It's all very personal, but when I started riding seriously a few years ago, I had numbness issues too. I went for the seat with the widest center slot I could find locally, and it turned out to be the right solution for me. 

Selle Italia SLR Gel Flow










This seat has worked really well for me, however, the widest version is marginally too narrow for me. My sit bones are right on the outside edge of the main part of the saddle. It doesn't cause me any discomfort, but I have mangled the chamois in some very expensive bib shorts on long (6hr plus) rides.

In an effort to find something similar with with a slightly wider platform, I have been experimenting with the Specialized "Power" saddle.










I currently have this on my trainer bike, and I really like the overall feel of it. however, it's slightly more curved than the Selle Italia my derrier is most accustomed to, and it puts a little more pressure on the inside of my sit bones. I'm going to give it some more time and see if I can adjust to it. I do like the wider platform. Im one of those riders who likes to move around on the seat depending on my effort level, and this really accomodates that. I also like the shorter nose.

If you prefer a saddle that locks you into place, some people love the SMP saddles. This is a saddle you sit IN more than one you sit ON. It's definitely not for me, but some people swear by them.










I think numbness is probably best addressed with a nice long/wide groove in the saddle, but general saddle comfort is a hugely variable thing. Everyone has a different anatomy in that regard. Go to a shop and sit on their assometer (a foam or gel device you sit on that measure how wide your sit bones are). Then use that as a guide to determine how wide or narrow you need your seat to be.

Other things to consider are the curve. Some saddles are more or less flat across the top (like the SLR Gel Flow), and others have a more pronounced curved shape. The only way to know what is going to work for you is to try as many as you can and try to understand specifically what is good and bad about each one. Where is it hitting you? Where is the soreness? Is it chaffing? Bruisng? etc...

Some local shops will let you return a seat to exchange for other models until you find one you like. This really helped me, as I went through 4 or 5 before I found the one that worked best.

One other tip. Don't assume a saddle with more padding is better. It's not. I mean, sure, if you are going for a short ride around your neighborhood, a soft, squishy saddle is fine, but for long rides, you don't want your sit bones to sink down into your seat padding. It just causes bruising of the tissue around your sit bones. You really want your sit bones to bare the brunt of the weight on the seat. A little padding is probably ok. A lot is not better. 

Another thing to consider is your riding position. You don't want to compromise yourself, but if you have a very upright riding position, this puts more weight on your seat. Just something to consider.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Thomas10 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I took up semi-serious cycling about a year ago. It's been great. I usually ride twice during the week for about 1-1.5 hrs with a 2-3 hr ride on the weekend. I've gotten fitter, faster, and had lots of fun. My problem is that I just can't spend more than a couple of hours in the saddle without getting really uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


Saddle comfort and adjustment:

There are 7 factors in preventing saddle numbness and pain:

1) saddle adjustment - tilt angle is very important and very small changes are noticeable

2) sitting properly - a lot of people ride too far forward on the saddle. Your "sit bones" should be perched on the rear, wide part of the saddle

3) standing up - you should never let things go numb or get painful. At the first sign of any lack of feeling or pain, pedal standing up for a short distance and repeat as necessary to bring the feeling back and prevent further numbness

4) easing up - you want to lift your rear end off the saddle any time you are going to hit a bump or sharp edge. It's easier on your anatomy, your wheels, your tires, and the rest of your bike.

5) bike fit: in addition to saddle height and tilt, there is fore/aft adjustment, reach and drop to the bars, and cleat position.

6) tires: proper width with the right PSI for your weight and roads so you don't feel every single road imperfection.

7) saddle - there are some people who can ride most any saddle if it is properly adjusted (see #1) and there are some people who have problems with nearly any saddle. It's hard to predict which type you are. Work on 1-6 and if that doesn't help, THEN consider a new saddle. 

When choosing a new saddle, width is important but so are a number of other things and it really is not possible to recommend a saddle that works based on width alone. The shape of the saddle butt, width of the nose, thickness and density of padding, etc. all factor in.

The standard advice to cure numbness is to tip the nose down, but having discussed this topic many times, it seems that some people do not sit properly on their saddles. You need to have a saddle and saddle position that has your sit bones on the butt of the saddle. If your saddle nose is tipped down too far, it may cause you to slide forward. If it is tipped up too far, it may be causing pressure. And if you can't get things right in between these points, it may be that you are not sitting in the right spot or that the saddle doesn't fit you. In my experience, the range of saddle tilt goes from "nose level" to saddle level. Nose level means that for most saddles, the butt of the saddle is slightly elevated (this is how I ride). Saddle level means that a level placed on the saddle would have the nose and butt level, which may create a hammock effect in the middle. If your saddle is "flat" and doesn't have a raised butt relative to the nose, then the "level" concept applies to the entire length of the saddle, not just the nose. Your personal comfort has to rule on where to place things in this range. Also, fore/aft position can influence comfort - it is a trade-off between pedaling style and the how much you lean on the bars vs. sit on the saddle.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, the 'curve' I was referring to is the side to side 'arc' of the saddle. 

Consider this illustration










Note that the flatter saddle will feel more like sitting on a chair. It contacts the bottom surfaces of your sit bones. 

The saddle with more curve will put more pressure on the inside surface of your sit bones (and push them in an outward direction).

There are pro's and con's to both.

For me personally, I like a flatter saddle that accommodates moving around a little bit, and has the more traditional "sitting on a chair feel". I tend to slide forward a bit when I'm hammering on the flats, and also lean forward more (into the drops, or with more arm bend). 


Others tell me they like more curve because it makes them feel more connected to the bike, and 'locked in' when applying power.

The saddles I posted above, the "Power" saddle has a little more of that curve, despite being a wider platform to sit on. After my first ride (about 2 hours), I immediately noticed some soreness on the inside edge of my sit bones (when I got off the bike). However, after putting on my trainer bike and having several dozen shorter (~1 hour) rides on it, I think I've gotten used to it, and don't really notice that soreness any more. I'll plan on taking it for a longer outside ride next warm sunny day and see how it feels.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Kerry Irons said:


> ....
> 
> 2) sitting properly - a lot of people ride too far forward on the saddle. Your "sit bones" should be perched on the rear, wide part of the saddle
> ....


This is probably the #1 issue. Most of my bikes have Brooks saddles, which are great....as long as you sit centered on them. I have one bike with a plastic/vinyl saddle, and I had to buy a zero-setback post to keep aligned with my....umm..."ABC".


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Numb junk! Not fun! You've only tried 3 saddles, so you're just getting started, LOL! 

I have literally been through over a dozen saddles until I found something that worked....most of the time. I used it for years. Until about two months ago.

Recently, I tried the Selle Anatomica:

https://selleanatomica.com/collections/x-series 

Expensive, but probably the best bike investment I ever made. I never, repeat *NEVER* get numb junk anymore. Not to mention that this is the most comfortable saddle overall I ever owned. Even with my previous "go-to" saddle, I found myself getting overall discomfort on long rides and even recently was getting saddle rash. NO MORE!

The Selle Anatomica, unlike the Brooks which requires a break-in period, is comfortable out of the box! However, it will need to be re-tensioned after the first couple of rides. Some even need to re-tension *during *the first ride - be sure to carry a 6mm Allen wrench with you!!

Many people just getting started erroneously believe that more padding (a softer saddle) will be more comfortable. Unfortunately, what more padding does is squish everything so you are MORE likely to go numb, not to mention get saddle rash. 

There are two versions of this saddle. One is about half the cost of the other. The difference is that one has rivets, the other has screws. Supposedly, the leather will eventually wear out and need to be replaced. When that happens, if you have the one with the screws, you can replace just the leather top. The riveted one will need total replacement.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

You know, this is a great idea for a new forum: "Saddle Exchange". Here we can post pics and descriptions of all the saddles that have failed us, and exchange them with fellow cyclist who just _might _find that, for them, it could be the right saddle!


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Lombard said:


> ....
> 
> Many people just getting started erroneously believe that more padding (a softer saddle) will be more comfortable. Unfortunately, what more padding does is squish everything so you are MORE likely to go numb, not to mention get saddle rash.
> 
> ......


Also, heavy padding only compresses after a few miles, leaving you with a much-less soft saddle.

A few years ago, there were some truly weird (and heavy) saddles which showed promise for those with severe saddle issues; one was just 2 round pads, side-by-side, which you sat only your sit bones on, and the second was a long hammock sort of thing. I'd bet that each saddle weighed 2lbs, which might be OK for touring but not for a road bike.


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## Maelochs (Aug 22, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Numb junk! Not fun! You've only tried 3 saddles, so you're just getting started, LOL!
> 
> I have literally been through over a dozen saddles until I found something that worked....most of the time. I used it for years. Until about two months ago.
> 
> ...


 No one will tell you this .... but likey once the leather erodes, you can drill out the rivets, replace them with screws, and replace the leather.

Personally, I am saddle-obsessive a little ...I shop the returned merchandise and sale/closeout pages of a bunch of websites and buy different saddles whenever i see a good product at a reasonable price. I cannot afford to buy ten saddles at $100-$1500 ... that is almost a whole bike for me (frame, groupset, wheels, cockpit.)

I wait until they are selling for $25-$50 .... I can live with a couple scratches on the rails. 

I am always looking for a saddle which will work After a few hours, when I am too tired to accept minor discomfort.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thomas10...sounds like you might benefit from a wider nosed saddle. I humbly suggest the new Shimano Pro Stealth. This is way different than the what comes stock, the ISM and the Pro Griffon you tried.

It's a touch shorter than the standard road saddle so take care in the set up.


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## Thomas10 (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks for all the great input, everyone. I can see that this is a pretty complex issue. 

I do think my posture on the bike has had something to do with it. I originally sat too far forward on the saddle and I think that contributed to the numbness. So, I've been focusing on sitting back onto my sitz bones. But I think maybe 1) sitting too forward for months has delayed me toughening up my sitz bones and 2)focusing on sitting back has maybe put me too upright and put extra weight on my bum. 

I rode 2.5 hours today and tried to focus on sitting back on the saddle but also leaning forward a bit more. I also made sure to get out of the saddle every 10 min or so. I think it all helped but it's hard to quantify. I have a longer ride scheduled for next weekend which will be a bigger test. 

I hope it helps. My LBS doesn't have an "assometer" or a saddle trial program. i can drive to the nearest big city in hopes of finding an assometer but, like Maelochs, I can't afford to go through a bunch of saddles at ~ $100 a pop.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

You shouldn't need to try and sit on a certain part of the saddle imo. Maybe move the saddle under you. You wrote you visited a professional fitter...what did they say? And I have to ask...was the bike fit to see what size bike would be best or was it a bike fit once you bought a bike and you basically find saddle height, setback and reach? Two different things.


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## Maelochs (Aug 22, 2016)

woodys737 said:


> was the bike fit to see what size bike would be best or was it a bike fit once you bought a bike and you basically find saddle height, setback and reach? Two different things.


 "We HAVE A LOT OF 58s ... so you look like you need a 58 ... Let's see if we can make it fit."

I have probably repeated this too many times but ... even if a bike fits perfectly when you buy it, your body will change over the months ... and your "best fit" and "best riding position" will change as well.

You will actually learn how to properly sit on a road bike, and you will develop the appropriate muscles, legs and body, to support yourself in that unnatural position comfortably.

What was recommended to me was that I sit hard on a sheet of corrugated cardboard---pile up a few sheets from a torn-up box on a hard surface.Take a long piece of chalk held sideways or something and run it lightly over the top sheet and you should see the are where your ischeal loops actually press. 

Measuring approximately to the center should help you at least pick the right width of saddle. 

I have some very comfortable saddles ... but comfort still changes from day to day, depending on how tired I am, exactly how my bibs are fitting that day, how much attention I am paying ... but I never have a problem a quick adjustment of my personal parts cannot fix ... that plus just standing up and letting a little blood get to the numbs spots and pressure points.

Last night I did a quick 17 miles ... and for some reason my legs and body were strong, i was moving at a decent pace and just luck ... I never once even felt the need to stand. Zero discomfort. 

If my legs had been a little tired, maybe I would have sat on the seat harder, pout more shock into my lower back ... and had discomfort. Those things also make a difference.

If you are managing 2,.5 hour rides with minimal discomfort ... you aren't doing too badly. if the discomfort sets in after that, i bet it is partly fatigue-related, and paying attention to how you are sitting might help with that.

But ... i don't know.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Maelochs said:


> Last night I did a quick 17 miles ... and for some reason my legs and body were strong, i was moving at a decent pace and just luck ... I never once even felt the need to stand. Zero discomfort.


I now can ride 40+ miles with very minimal sit bone discomfort and NO junk numbness. If you are getting discomfort after only 17 miles, you really need to change something, seriously.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thomas10 one last opinion. Others have hit on this and you said you wear "decent Pearl Izumi padded shorts". That's fine and all but, I have some bibs from Castelli that have what would appear a very good pad in it. Similar in shape, thickness and density to other high end bibs I use. But, there is something about this pad or the way it is sewn in to the bibs that I really can't comfortably wear them for more than a couple hours. Even with massive amounts of chamois cream I just have never been able to make them work well. And I do ride some long rides each week/month/year. I'll do many 5 hour rides and am coming up on another 200 mile ride later this fall (9+ hours).

So, while people go crazy thinking it's all in the saddle I beg to differ. This assumes your fit is reasonable. Just something to think about. It could very well be that the pad in your Pearl Izumi's is just off a bit. It happens.

Edit: problem is good bibs are about as expensive as saddles. Good luck. This will probably take some time and money. But, when you find the right combo it's worth it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

woodys737 said:


> Thomas10 one last opinion. Others have hit on this and you said you wear "decent Pearl Izumi padded shorts". That's fine and all but, I have some bibs from Castelli that have what would appear a very good pad in it. Similar in shape, thickness and density to other high end bibs I use. But, there is something about this pad or the way it is sewn in to the bibs that I really can't comfortably wear them for more than a couple hours. Even with massive amounts of chamois cream I just have never been able to make them work well. And I do ride some long rides each week/month/year. I'll do many 5 hour rides and am coming up on another 200 mile ride later this fall (9+ hours).
> 
> So, while people go crazy thinking it's all in the saddle I beg to differ. This assumes your fit is reasonable. Just something to think about. It could very well be that the pad in your Pearl Izumi's is just off a bit. It happens.
> 
> Edit: problem is good bibs are about as expensive as saddles. Good luck. This will probably take some time and money. But, when you find the right combo it's worth it.


A good pair of shorts/bibs is important. I have found Assos to be my shorts of choice as they are not stitched on the sides. This allows the chamois to move with you as you shift yourself around. Expensive, but worth it.

However, as important as a quality pair of shorts/bibs is at general comfort and preventing saddle sores/rashes, this will do little to prevent numb junk. Saddle choice and position is where you need to go for the numb junk issue.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Maelochs said:


> ......
> 
> What was recommended to me was that I sit hard on a sheet of corrugated cardboard---pile up a few sheets from a torn-up box on a hard surface.Take a long piece of chalk held sideways or something and run it lightly over the top sheet and you should see the are where your ischeal loops actually press.
> 
> ...


This gives me an idea: The orthopedic shoe insert place I go to uses some sort of pressure-sensitive paper to get an idea of where I get pressure points on my feel. I would assume that it would work with your...ahem..."unmentionable area" as well. Not only that, but if you were so inclined to alter a saddle by putting strategic orthotic padding in the areas needed (like in a personalized shoe insert), you could end up with that holy grail of saddles, the one that works just for yourself.

Back when I experimented with (and pretty much gave up on) "cutout saddles", I found that they pretty much moved the zone of discomfort from where it had been, to either side of that. Maybe today things are better.


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## Thomas10 (Jun 4, 2017)

I had a true bike fitting. Two, actually. First, the old-fashioned way from the owner of the LBS after buying the bike. But I sprang for a BikeFit a few months later. It was more in-depth than what I got at my LBS but it was much more focused on my shoe-cleat-pedal interface than my ass-saddle interface. 

I hate to inject yet another variable into this equation but I've never used chamois cream. I wonder if that would help. The idea of smearing greasy stuff all over that area and into my shorts seems very unappealing, and I don't see how it would help with either the numbness or the tenderness. But i could be wrong. After all, I did wear a jock strap under my shorts for the first few months of riding!


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thomas10 said:


> I had a true bike fitting. Two, actually. First, the old-fashioned way from the owner of the LBS after buying the bike. But I sprang for a BikeFit a few months later. It was more in-depth than what I got at my LBS but it was much more focused on my shoe-cleat-pedal interface than my ass-saddle interface.
> 
> I hate to inject yet another variable into this equation but I've never used chamois cream. *I wonder if that would help.* The idea of smearing greasy stuff all over that area and into my shorts seems very unappealing, and I don't see how it would help with either the numbness or the tenderness. But i could be wrong. After all, I did wear a jock strap under my shorts for the first few months of riding!


The purpose of chamois cream is to reduce chafing.


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## Thomas10 (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks, woody. Chafing has not been an issue, fortunately, so I guess that's one less thing to worry about.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Good chamois cream isn't greasy. In fact I would specifically avoid anything that had an oily consistency. Too hard to get out of your shorts without harsh detergents.

Most of the popular brands are just creme's but don't have oils in them

I''ve used Chamois Butt'r and Assos cremes. Both work great. I like the Assos a little better, as it's a little bit firmer consistency and stays where you put it better. 

I don't use it for longer rides, but anything more than two hours and I make it a point to use it, even if I'm not having chaffing issues.


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## hazilim (Jan 17, 2012)

Thomas10: I have the same bike (but the saddle fit problem is not bike-specific). It's a royal pain, but the only way to find out what agrees with your individual body shape is to experiment with different saddles (as others have suggested above).
I finally chose the Selle Italia Superflow SLR. Works for me.
We really need a way to try a bunch of saddles without spending a fortune. Someone told me that Performance Bike will allow you to try (and exchange) any number of saddles with their great return policy. They carry a great variety, including the Selle Italia.
Look into this possibility; if true, it may make your trial-and-error search inexpensive.
Bob


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Thomas10 said:


> I hate to inject yet another variable into this equation but I've never used chamois cream. I wonder if that would help. The idea of smearing greasy stuff all over that area and into my shorts seems very unappealing, and I don't see how it would help with either the numbness or the tenderness.


The purpose of chamois cream is to reduce the rubbing friction between the chamois and your skin and prevent saddle sores. It didn't help me at all and as you said, wearing slime in the gooch was not very appealing. 

Regardless, chamois cream will do nothing for numbness.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

I said it before and will say again. I believe 85% of the seat issues people have are due to an incorrect fit. Now, I know you said you have a fit, so this situation may be different but folks going through six seats claiming it's all terrible... if it was it would never make it to market. 

I'm a big proponent of taking a wrench with me and seeing what small adjustments work. Not sure if this is you.

I'd lower the properly leveled seat by 2mm and ride a bit, then move it forward by 2mm and ride a bit. Always make sure you can get back to your starting point with a faint mark or something.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

9W9W said:


> I said it before and will say again. I believe 85% of the seat issues people have are due to an incorrect fit. Now, I know you said you have a fit, so this situation may be different but folks going through six seats claiming it's all terrible... if it was it would never make it to market.
> 
> I'm a big proponent of taking a wrench with me and seeing what small adjustments work. Not sure if this is you.
> 
> I'd lower the properly leveled seat by 2mm and ride a bit, then move it forward by 2mm and ride a bit. Always make sure you can get back to your starting point with a faint mark or something.


I agree some rather small changes can make large differences in feel. But, no way 85% of the people out there could sit correctly on an Arione or any number of saddles no matter the amount of adjustment. JMO


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

Thomas10 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I took up semi-serious cycling about a year ago. It's been great. I usually ride twice during the week for about 1-1.5 hrs with a 2-3 hr ride on the weekend. I've gotten fitter, faster, and had lots of fun. My problem is that I just can't spend more than a couple of hours in the saddle without getting really uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


Lol. I had the same problem when I started. I didn't read through the whole tread so maybe someone said it already. 
You have to set up the clock to get off the saddle at about 5-10 min Intervals. You have to do a small sprint nothing with power. 15 secs should suffice. 
It is just to restore blood flow to the testicles and penis. 
Before someone enlighten me about this I used to do 4-5 hours (100 miles) rides and couldn't feel my testicles/penis until late at night. 
A comfortable saddle will allow you to stay seated longer before you have to get up. I wouldn't stay seated for more than 10 min at a time. 
Now when I go out and my computer is off I do it at the first sing of tingling down there. 
I tried at least 6 different saddles from different brands. I ended up with a semiround shape from prologo. I use the nago Evo x10. Best for my butt. 
I hope this helps. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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