# Quality Sub 1400 gram clinchers?



## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

A bit confused if I am looking for a wheelset that doesn't exist.

A bit about me.

Typical Use: I ride 150+ miles a week throughout Marin Ca with Cat 4 and Cat 5 racer or former racer types on group rides. Basically we average 20+ miles an hour over 50+ miles climbing 3,000 to 5,000 per ride. 

Profile: 48, 205 lbs, 6' 3" and will loose another 5 lbs by summer. Been rod riding for less than a year (June 2012) and still learning (but learning fast and dropping weight fast - started at 238).

Current Bike: 2012 Cannondale Supersix with Mavic Kysyrium Equippe wheelset (1700 grams) - total weight 18 lbs

Impending Bike: 2013 Cannondale Supersix Evo Red Racing and comes with Vision carbon TC24 tubulars (1250 grams and will give to my son) - total weight 14 lbs

The new bike tubulars do not excite me because a) I don't want to mess with flat tubulars in the middle of no where and b) they come with red graphics and a red spoke that do not match the all black with green accents of new bike.

I'd like to get a new clincher wheelset to use on current bike and keep the new bike's weight around 14 lbs yet handle my typical use above and my weight.

I am not opposed to off the shelf, custom build, aluminum or carbon. I would like a bit aero since I chose not to ride in 15+ moh wind.

Not sure if I should be concerned about spoke lacing setup or hub maintenance.

Budget is $2,250 or less and not opposed to saving money if there are diminishing returns spending up to my budget. Not afraid of last year models either or used wheels.

I love this forum and thanks for all the education in advance!


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

You could go a few different ways on this one. An Enve build could be a good route, but it would be hard not to go slightly over your max price. It would get you a 5 year warranty on the rims though. 
Going with an alloy build could be a much more affordable option. You could lace Velocity A23 OCs to Tune Mig/Mag hubs. That would be right around 1360 grams in a 24/28 hole count. If you wanted a bit more aero of a rim, you could go with an XR270 from Kinlin. The one downside there is that you don't get the 23mm wide profile.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Which Enve and hub where you thinking? Lace count?

Why the Velocity's? Never heard of them.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

I should add one more detail. I just put on Conti 4000s 25m tires/tubes and am enjoying the ride.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

For the Enves, the 45 would be your best bet. All though most would say that the added premium for the SES rim series is worth it (wider profile, more aero). For the spoke count, it depends on the rim. For the 45, a 20/28 would be a good option. The SES options only come in 20/24 though, which would still be just fine at your weight. 

Velocity is an underrated rim manufacturer. I think they get thrown into the hipster fixie class alot because of their Deep V builds. The A23 really is an awesome rim though. But obviously, no where near the quality of the Enves.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Dura Ace C24s.

sub-1400g and fall well under your max budget.

I love mine.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Velocity, Tune, all CX-Ray build in 24/28 is more like 1395g if you get a light batch of rims. I don't consider the A23 rim in the same class as the Hed C2 or H+Son Archetype. The Archetype is only a little more expensive, is about the same weight, has a better profile, and the quality is higher. The Hed rim is less available than it used to be and is significantly more expensive, but the quality is great.

I don't think the Enve 45mm rims are light enough in clincher form to bother with carbon since they aren't significantly more aerodynamic. You are better off either forgetting about the 1400g mark and getting a premium set of alloy clinchers or killing that budget and getting Smart 6.7s where the aerodynamics are significantly better. At speed, these are amazing wheels. If you go this route, don't get DT hubs as they will flex more. Get either Alchemy, Tune or even R45 hubs.

I've been building up wheels with the Pacenti SL23 rims and they have the best shape/weight of any available alloy rim. A set build up with Tune hubs will be hover around 1420g they way I build them. For your weight I wouldn't recommend CX-Rays for the drive side of the rear wheel. The flange doesn't give enough support since it's so far in making room for the cassette. I prefer to use a heavier gauge spoke like the Sapim Race or CX-Speed spoke. Otherwise, you will get more flex when riding/climbing out of the saddle.

You can read more about the current alloy rim offerings here.
2013 Rim Roundup - Fair Wheel Bikes


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Oxtox said:


> Dura Ace C24s.
> 
> sub-1400g and fall well under your max budget.
> 
> I love mine.


Interesting idea. Concerned with all the reports that they will not be stiff enough at my weight and watts.

I also have not see where they are listed below 1400 grams.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Sub 1400 clinchers definitely exist.

Ones that make sense for a 200 pounder to ride 175 a week on, not so much.

Like any decision it's about risk/reward. Sure with the right parts you can get the risk somewhat low but the reward will remain 0 for skimming of those last grams to hit 1400.

You an get the best of the best alloy clinchers that make sense for your weight for about $1000. Speak to wheelbuilder who will build them according to your size size, riding style and quality or roads and don't worry about 1400 grams. Seriously, hitting some arbitrary number of 1400 will do absolutly nothing for your riding.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

I agree Jay. I am putting the 1400 number out there as a goal, but it has some flexibility. Just trying to avoid having a 14 lbs new bike turn into a 15 lbs new bike if I can help it.

Going from old bike to new bike to lose 4 lbs will do something for my riding. But maybe I am naive.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You an get the best of the best alloy clinchers that make sense for your weight for about $1000.


Are you saying custom or manufactured? Please elaborate details.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Building a bike to a number is a bad idea. Get the right components and don't weigh the bike. Heck, most Pro Tour riders don't even get their bike down to the minimum UCI weight. I stopped weighing my bike a long time ago. I know it's under 20lbs, but that's about it. It's an amazing bike that I ride with the upmost confidence and never worry about durability. I slap on whatever components are right for the time of year I'm riding.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Agree Ergott, that is why I posted what I ride, how I ride and where I ride with a goal to learn specific recommendations. You gave an outline of rim and hub options, but I am very interested in a specific build spec or manufacturer model recommendation from more experienced riders than I.

I believe I've answered all your "ready to order" questions unless I am missing something.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

duffin said:


> Are you saying custom or manufactured? Please elaborate details.


I'm saying custom but only because I'm not really familiar with what would be good lightish factory wheels for you. DA C24 are really good but, although plenty of guys have proven they can take 200 pounds, I'd be hesitant to mention them to a 200 pounder because of the low spoke count.

Something like Alchemy hubs, H Plus Son Archetype rims, would be really good. For spokes is where I'd defer to a wheelbuilder. I know what works for me but I'm only 150 pounds. Riding syle has a lot to do with it too. Some people 'ride heavy' so to speak and trash wheels. Others, are good about using their legs as shocks and ride light so hardly ever have wheel issues. You'd want to mention which catagory you are in to a wheelbuilder too.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Good points Jay. I am medium hard on the wheels. I stand over rough, deep holes and even pull up if I have time. But when keeping up with a fast group, I tend to ride through cobbles too. Sounds like you are saying working with a wheel builder is the way to go.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

If your willing to go slightly over 1400 grams, I think it really does open up some more options. As mentioned, you could then go with a rim like the H Plus Son Archetype. It has one of the nicest finishes that I've seen on an alloy hoop, but it is slightly heavier than other options. 
For me, ride quality will trump weight any day. With that said, I think that a wide profile rim with a mid depth range would be ideal.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

I think considering your size, a set of wheels built with HED C2 rims, CX Ray spokes and Alchemy hubs would be your best bang-for-the-buck. If you can wait for the release of Alchemy's new ORC-UL rear hub, you will also save some weight over the present Alchemy ORC hub (32 gram savings based on present available specs).

IMO, the cost of Enve rims versus aluminum rims would be wasteful, particularly considering your weight and the fact that it limits the degree to which you can reduce weight on a set of wheels (since you'll require a larger spoke count than most weight-weenie wheels).


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

tvad said:


> you will also save some weight over the present Alchemy ORC hub (32 gram savings based on present available specs).


I wasn't aware that the new specs for the ORC - UL were finalized yet. Did I miss some info? I know that Jeremy didn't know the final weights last time I talked to him.


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## Cooper1960 (Oct 14, 2010)

HED Ardennes SL or FR, you can get either in a stallion build to suit your weight and not sure exactly but I think weight is under 1475 for either even with the stallion build. You also get the 23mm rims you want. Great wheels in my opinion, I have been using them for several years. Also about half of what you budgeted for.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

The front hub remains the same and the rear hub in Shimano 11 will weight at or about 195g. The straigh pull front hub is a while off and not worth discussing until they are closer to production. The new rear hub is currently in production and after that, have to do to anodizing, then final assembly.

PS when I say the front is the same, there have been some running changes. The axle can be adjusted (that changed happened rearly on). Also, the hub comes with Phil Wood bearings for better durability. The flange diameters were increased about 1mm without changing the spoke hole circle to avoid cracking.

The rear hub design is real exciting. There are several features that will be unique to his hub. I will definitely be a top performer in every way.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

I wrote "present available specs", which I took from the Fairwheel blog.

To be precise, Fairwheel states an expected ORC-UL weight of 189 grams. The ORC weighs 222 grams according to several sources.

To your point, the ORC-UL weight has not been officially declared by Alchemy.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Thanks for the info tvad and ergott. Good to know. I'm getting anxious to see the new ORC UL. I'm not sure if we've ever had so much interest in a single hub before so I really can't wait to get my hands on some.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Cooper1960 said:


> HED Ardennes SL or FR, you can get either in a stallion build to suit your weight and not sure exactly but I think weight is under 1475 for either even with the stallion build. You also get the 23mm rims you want. Great wheels in my opinion, I have been using them for several years. Also about half of what you budgeted for.


LBS is recommending these - HED Cycling Ardennes FR which I believe you are recommending. 

What is a stallion build? Why do I qualify as a stallion? Foreign terms to me.

I've also overheard that HED hubs are not so good in comparison to other options, but that is just conjecture and rumor.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I believe their Stallion build is one with a slightly higher spoke count.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ergott said:


> The rear hub design is real exciting.


Will it still require a special tool to replace the bearings?

OP, that's one thing to consider with Alchemy hubs. They build a great wheel especially for someone your size where you could actually benefit (the extra stifness and strength is overkill for light people), but if you blow the bearings it could be a pain in the arse getting someone to replace them the right way. It happened to me and I had to make quite a few phone calls to find someone locally with that tool. I could have sent them to Alchemy, they were more than willing to help, but I didn't want to deal with the time and expense of mailing right in the middle of racing season.

Perhaps the new ones took care of that issue. But if not it's something to consider if self or local service matters to you.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

No extra tools. Something special about the bearings, but I don't know if it's public yet. Not proprietary, but special.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, does everyone agree with me that tubulars are not a good choice for remote country riding? If I am being too apprehensive about tubulars, maybe that changes the equation?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Not necessarily. How often do you get one or two flats a ride? Are they cuts or just small punctures? I ride tubulars all the time when the weather is better. I get most of my flats in the off season when the roads have more debris.

If flats are rare, tubulars are a treat worth experiencing. Nothing like it.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

@duffin- I think that tubulars a great option for remote riding. They are far less prone to flats, especially when injected with a bit of sealant. Most seem to prefer clinchers though.

If you want a decent middle ground, go tubeless clincher. That would be a slightly better ride quality than a tubed setup, but still no where near tubular though.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

There are very few guys with whom I ride who ride tubulars during training rides...and they're primarily racers and ex-racers.

Tubulars seem to be a great race wheel if you have available sag support, but I haven't yet found a reason to use them on a day-to-day basis.

One guy who's in my group started riding tubulars because of the weight savings. Then, I noticed he carries a spare tire. If you're carrying a spare tire, then is there any real weight savings once you add the weight of the tire to the weight of the wheels?

I'm truly not trying to be argumentative toward the tubular users. I just don't see the advantage of tubulars on the performance-convenience continuum.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tvad said:


> If you're carrying a spare tire, then is there any real weight savings once you add the weight of the tire to the weight of the wheels?
> 
> I'm truly not trying to be argumentative toward the tubular users. I just don't see the advantage of tubulars on the performance-convenience continuum.


Ride them and you will understand;-)

Yes I recommend carrying a spare tire. You also have to carry a spare tube or two with clinchers so I don't see the difference.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

You all convinced me to try tubulars on the new bike that comes with Vision TC24 wheelset. Still an unknown wheelset from my limited research.

I do get puncture flats in Marin County, but the frequency is around 2-3 over 6 months.

I have been eyeing an Industry Nine set because it's American, good company, quick support. I know their MTB hubs well, just not their road reputation. Any reason to avoid this wheelset?

INDUSTRY NINE : : : - i45

Also inclined to use CK R45 over Alchemy hubs based on other threads.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> Ride them and you will understand;-)
> 
> Yes I recommend carrying a spare tire. You also have to carry a spare tube or two with clinchers so I don't see the difference.


Tube=90 grams
Tubular tire=241 grams 

151 grams difference.

Look at a real world weight comparison:

HED C2 Clincher (20/24)/Alchemy Hubs/CX Ray spokes=1449 grams/pair + 2 clincher tires (Vittoria Open EVO CX clincher @ 210 grams/ea) 420 grams + 180 grams tubes = 2049 grams + spare tube (90 grams) = 2139 grams

HED C2 tubular (20/24)/Alchemy Hubs/CX Ray spokes = 1372 grams/pair + 2 tubular tires (Vittoria Open EVO CX tubular @ 241 grams/ea) 482 grams = 1854 grams + extra tire @ 241 grams = 2095 grams

Clincher total including extra tube = 2139
Tubular total + extra tire = 2095

44 grams difference.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Like I said no difference.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

duffin said:


> INDUSTRY NINE : : : - i45
> 
> Also inclined to use CK R45 over Alchemy hubs based on other threads.


I9 does have a solid rep and the components used in that set are great (Reynolds rims). 

What have you read that makes you prefer the R45 over the Alchemy? I do like both hubsets myself, just curious.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

duffin,

A large part of cycling equipment is the learning that comes with using different components. Wheels are a good example. There's a large part of the education that comes with practical experience, and that's where discussion forum advice comes up short.

Buy whatever wheels look interesting to you. 

Regarding Alchemy vs. CK R45...you expressed a desire to reduce weight. Alchemy hubs weigh less than Chris King hubs, which is precisely why I mentioned Alchemy. They're both excellent companies with excellent products. I have found that most participants in this forum prefer Chris King over Alchemy. I have also found that most local riders in my groups ride Chris King on their custom wheel sets. I think I'm one of perhaps two or three riders using Alchemy.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> Like I said no difference.


Exactly, which is why I prefer the ease of use of clincher rims. If ride quality is the primary objective, then from all reports tubular tires are the way to go...but riding tubular because they save weight is true only technically. 44 grams likely won't be perceived on the bike.

To each his own.

Cycling isn't about clincher vs. tubular.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

If you really want to flaunt the difference, an Enve tubular 45mm rim is 145g (per rim) lighter than the clincher. The Smart rims are about 100g lighter for each set. There is no 25mm clincher option from them. That rim weighs 250g. There's not reliable clincher rim that would come close to that, ever. It's a limitation of the design of the hook bead.

I have a set of 950g tubular wheels that have several years old and still run like new. That's not going to happen with clinchers.

When I ride my alloy tubular wheels, I don't ride them for reduced weigh. No clincher setup rides like my box section tubular wheels.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

You brought up weight as a reason, not me. That's not the reason I choose them.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

tvad - well said. That is why I am crushing and tossing the Mavic Equippe wheels. I can hear the spokes groan climbing hills. lol

Egrott - Jay had an issue with Alchemy.

Sea Otter will provide a real world ride test ground coming in April.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> I have a set of 950g tubular wheels that have several years old and still run like new. That's not going to happen with clinchers.


I have 12 year old Campy Nucleon clinchers that ride like the day I bought them. They've never required truing. The hub bearing were replaced last year.

So much for not getting argumentative. 

As I said, cycling isn't about tubular vs. clincher (or any other debate about equipment)...but we all like to make it so.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ergott said:


> You brought up weight as a reason, not me.


That's true. Since the OP asked about tubulars, and since his topic is about wheels at a certain target weight and price point, then I concluded that weight was a reason he was asking about tubulars. Perhaps I was mistaken.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tvad said:


> As I said, cycling isn't about tubular vs. clincher (or any other debate about equipment)...but we all like to make it so.



No worries, next round of drinks are on me.

Cheers,


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## lbkwak (Feb 22, 2012)

Eric,

Do you know if Jeremy changed his hub geo. with the ORC-UL?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

FWIW my main riding buddy and I have covered many thousands of miles together over the past year. He rides clinchers, I ride tubulars. He's had 6 or 7 flats in the past calendar year, and I (knock wood) haven't had one. Same roads, same weather, and I do more road mileage (more weekday training) than he does. So you'd be hard pressed to convince me that tubulars are more flat prone.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

lbkwak said:


> Eric,
> 
> Do you know if Jeremy changed his hub geo. with the ORC-UL?


Both 11 speed hubs will be the same as current Campagnolo. There will be a 10 speed specific version for those with Sram or no intention of going 11. That will keep current Shimano 10 spacing.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

No one commented whether the stock Vision TC24 tubular would be ok for my profile if I stayed with them. Thoughts?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

duffin said:


> No one commented whether the stock Vision TC24 tubular would be ok for my profile if I stayed with them.


I don't see why not.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

tvad said:


> I don't see why not.


1) Vision is a brand of FSA and seems to be a new entrant without a proven track record
2) The front spokes (20) and rear (24) seems a little light for my 200 lbs, but I may be wrong

TriMax Carbon TC24

The Vision TC24 that comes stock on 2013 Cannondale Supersix Evo Red Racing model.
Interesting features though.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

duffin said:


> No one commented whether the stock Vision TC24 tubular would be ok for my profile if I stayed with them. Thoughts?


Id stick with clinchers if I were you. Keep in mind the people saying tubulars might be a good option are wheel professionals. Which means they know what they are talking about, but it also means they probably have long since forgotten what it's like for a beginner, or sorts, to change a tubular tire out in the middle of no where. Yes, I see the catch 22 there in that you have to use them to get the experience and I'm saying don't use them without the experience. I guess in conclusion I'd say just make damn sure you know exactly what you'd be getting into before deciding to use tubulars. Don't get me wrong, it's not rocket science but it's nothing like clinchers either.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

duffin said:


> 1) Vision is a brand of FSA and seems to be a new entrant without a proven track record
> 2) The front spokes (20) and rear (24) seems a little light for my 200 lbs, but I may be wrong
> 
> TriMax Carbon TC24
> ...


Sorry, I just have no experience with those wheels to say either way. That spoke count is a bit low for you unless you are using a much deeper carbon rim.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Id stick with clinchers if I were you. Keep in mind the people saying tubulars might be a good option are wheel professionals. Which means they know what they are talking about, but it also means they probably have long since forgotten what it's like for a beginner, or sorts, to change a tubular tire out in the middle of no where. Yes, I see the catch 22 there in that you have to use them to get the experience and I'm saying don't use them without the experience. I guess in conclusion I'd say just make damn sure you know exactly what you'd be getting into before deciding to use tubulars. Don't get me wrong, it's not rocket science but it's nothing like clinchers either.



Again, I'm not saying everyone has to ride tubulars (although they should;-), I'm just posting some information so the tubular myths are dispelled. I know some people swear that the Tufo tape is the work of the devil, but I've never had a problem with it and neither have people I know that push their bike at the pro level racing. I don't recommend it for cyclocross where tire pressure is lower. Glue can ultimately be a stronger bond, but there are more variables with glue and not all glue jobs are created equal. The tape is consistent and up to the task. Besides, if you tried to remove an unglued tire off a rim that's inflated to pressure you would be surprised how hard it is. Just don't ride it that way.

Here's my process.

Install:
1 stretch any new tubular tire for a day or two.
2 apply Tufo Extreme tape to rim.
3 put tire on and center it while it only has enough pressure in it to maintain shape.
4 once happy, pull backing off tape
5 inflate tire to pressure and ride.

roadside repair

1 either leave a 1cm section of tire unglued (taped) opposite valve or carry a tire lever
2 begin removing tire. Once you have about 4-6in of tire off, the rest will come off quick
3 put spare on, inflate and ride
4 If I felt the need, I could carry a roll of tape with me and put the spare on as good as new. I would probably do that if I was riding in mountainous terrain.

It's better if your spare tire has some residual glue on it. I've been using the same spare tire for as long as I can remember. All I do is get home, take the spare off and mount a fresh tire on.

Once I have 4 or more tires collected, they go to tirealert.com for repair if they can be. They remove the tube, put a new tube in there, sew the tire back up and glue the basetape back on. I've only had to send out some tires once so far. Usually I wear the tires out. A small puncture can be fixed with some tire sealant instead. Some people put the sealant in the tire before going out. Depending on the type of flats you get you might never change a flat out on the road with that stuff in.

As said above, it's not rocket science. It's also no big deal. It doesn't take much experience at all. I can change my tubular faster than most people change their clincher tube.

You never know how tubulars ride until you try it. I've never spoken to someone that didn't like the ride/handling better.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

duffin said:


> 1) Vision is a brand of FSA and seems to be a new entrant without a proven track record
> 2) The front spokes (20) and rear (24) seems a little light for my 200 lbs, but I may be wrong


1) Ask Vision about their warranty
2) Ask Vision about any weight limit on the Carbon TC24 wheels


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## Cooper1960 (Oct 14, 2010)

Duffin you asked about the HED stallion build. The Stallion build is for riders over 190lbs., the build adds 2 spokes to the front and 4 to the rear wheel, I think each spoke is 4 grams.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks Cooper.

I was going to talk with these guys at Sea Otter. Maybe they have demo sets for a spin. Sea Otter is a great place for demoing sets. I know Mavic and others do this.

Road Climbing / Acceleration

But I know nothing of Pure in the link above.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

duffin said:


> But I know nothing of Pure in the link above.


It's the name given to the house-brand rims of BWW. They're fine. I did most of last season on a 27mm deep set on their current Race wheels.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Did you win on them Mike? KOM's? lol


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

duffin said:


> Did you win on them Mike? KOM's? lol


If I rode a pair of drilled-out *Lightweight Fernweg* I'd still drag my arse. :blush2:


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Mike, I just read your posts in another thread and saw your link which gave me inspiration to consider building my own wheelset. 

Am I correct is assuming I can save good money going the DIY route and get higher end parts? Maybe even known brand parts to help with resale?

I'd probably lace my son's set first as practice then a friend's set before doing mine perfectly.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

If resale value is important, then don't build your own wheels. You'll receive pennies on the dollar. Few cyclists trust DIY wheels built by others.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

duffin said:


> Mike, I just read your posts in another thread and saw your link which gave me inspiration to consider building my own wheelset.
> Am I correct is assuming I can save good money going the DIY route and get higher end parts? Maybe even known brand parts to help with resale?
> I'd probably lace my son's set first as practice then a friend's set before doing mine perfectly.


It all depends and the only way you will know for sure is to do your homework. For instance, about 5 years ago I was going to build a set of wheels for a cyclocross dirt road bike I was building. I wanted OpenPro rims, Shimano Ultegra hubs and DT Comp spokes (or Sapim Race, the brand mattered not). I priced the parts via the least cost mailorder I could find. Then I found BWW would sell me the whole wheelset for $60 less than I could buy the parts for. That purchase was a no-brainer. The only cycling experience that could top riding wheels you have built would be riding a home-built frame.

Sometimes it's cheaper to buy the parts and build them ourselves. But we don't just home-build wheelsets for cost savings. We do it for the experience and the enjoyment. We do it for the ability to maintain our own wheels rather than rely on others. We do it because we want total customization.

And I don't agree with tvad's comment. I don't understand it at all. But then I've never built a wheelset for myself with others in mind - just like I buy cars - I buy 'em for me and not for the next guy.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

duffin said:


> Am I correct is assuming I can save good money going the DIY route and get higher end parts? Maybe even known brand parts to help with resale?


Usually, No. You'd pay retail and would not get a volume discount like someone doing it professionally would. Not to mention the tools you'd probably have to buy.


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

duffin said:


> Am I correct is assuming I can save good money going the DIY route and get higher end parts? Maybe even known brand parts to help with resale?


As others have said...not really. I can be a great experience and help you understand the bicycle wheel, but it probably (definitely) won't save you money. If you want high end lightweight wheels Fairwheelbikes will build and ship your wheels for free if you buy all of the parts from them. Since you would be paying retail(ish) anyway there isn't any savings there, especially once you buy a truing stand, dishing tool, etc.

Ergott, Zen and numerous others on this board would be happy to build you a lightweight wheelset that you would be happy with for years. The best part, you can have them build it out of exactly the parts that you want, and you have their expert guidance to make sure you don't get in trouble. 

You like green hubs and nipples with silver spokes on a black rim? Let them know, they will tell you how many spokes to use, what kind and give you advice on rim choice. In the end you get exactly what you want and the confidence to ride the crap out of them.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I agree no real savings per se if you are going to build 1 set of wheels. However I think there are some savings available if you look at the "tooling" as an investment and are looking to build multiple sets. 

And let's be totally clear, there is no "need" for store bought truing stands, dish guages, etc. The only thing you really need to buy besides the parts is an appropriate spoke wrench (and I'd recommend some really good "instructions" would be money well spent). A dishing guage can easily be formed from layered cardboard. An old fork can work very well as a truing stand. I built my truing stand out of a sheet of spare 3/4" ply wood I had in the garage, about $10 in screws, nuts and bolts from the hardware store and some scrap rigid sign vinyl from the sign shop down the road. It was a fun project and cost me pennies compared to even the cheapest offerings from Park, Pedros, etc.

As others have said, this isn't rocket science. And I'll add it doesn't have to be expensive. I built 2 sets of A23s with mostly Laser spokes, 1 set on used Ultegra, 1 set on BHS hubs for less than $500 total out of pocket. I don't think Velocity will build you 1 set with straight gauge spokes for equal to or less than that.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

All great advice guys. I am a tinkerer and have bought enough tools to open a bike shop. I currently tend to 10 bikes in the garage for just the family, but haven't ventured into the realm of wheels due to time contraints.

After re-reading all the posts, maybe I need to approach this from a different angle and revisit the original problem.

My Mavic Ksyrium Equipe wheels (2012) are 1700 grams and "feel" like they could be stiffer. I hear what I think is wheel flexing while powering up 10+% grades. Sounds I hear are spoke "tings" and had to adjust brake rub slightly to allow for flex. (confirmed no drive train noise)

I also perceive dropping wheel weight will give me a boost compared to the engines and race bikes I am running with. I am considering a few other weight dropping upgrades in addition to wheels in order to drop the overall bike weight by 2-3 lbs (vs buying a new bike with lighter frame - eg. hi-mod Supersix).

Ksyrium Equipe S - wheels - road & triathlon - Mavic

Am I nuts for dumping these Mavic's?


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

duffin said:


> I also perceive dropping wheel weight will give me a boost compared to the engines and race bikes I am running with. I am considering a few other weight dropping upgrades in addition to wheels in order to drop the overall bike weight by 2-3 lbs (vs buying a new bike with lighter frame - eg. hi-mod Supersix).


Don't buy a new frame for weight reasons. It is generally a bad place ($/g) to try to save weight. Replace your wheels with some wide aluminum clinchers in 32h/28h and some Sapim Race (or similar) spokes. Pick a hub that you _want_ and enjoy your wheelset. Every hub and rim that has been recommended is great, just pick the ones that move you and go for it.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

The different between a 2012 Supersix (Ultegra) and 2013 Supersix Red Racing (Red) is 4 pounds loaded.

It is a $2000 upgrade, BUT the 2013 model comes with tubulars that I'd sell off for $900.

Either way, I have to get new wheels to keep the weight at 14 lbs on new bike and might as well get them now for old bike.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

duffin said:


> The different between a 2012 Supersix (Ultegra) and 2013 Supersix Red Racing (Red) is 4 pounds loaded.
> 
> It is a $2000 upgrade...


Shed 4 pounds of body weight and save the $2000.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

I've already shed about 40lbs and plan to shed another 5 on body (all that is left to shed) and hope to shed another 4 on the bike - nine total -  

I am looking for ALL advantages to go up and farther faster.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

OK then!

14lbs is pretty light. How do you intend to get there?

Carbon bars?
Lightweight stem (~120 grams or so)?
Lightweight wheels? (I own 1295 gram clinchers...frankly don't know of lighter clinchers available, although undoubtedly someone here will quickly point out several examples)
Lightweight pedals?

My bike weighs ~14.25 lbs including pedals and bottle cages...and I think it'd be pretty tough to get much lighter without going nuts with weight weenie parts. 

Frankly, getting your bike to be super light won't be as helpful to go faster or farther more than will good training. I've been relatively quick during periods of time, and there have always been faster guys on considerably heavier bikes who pull away from me.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

You must have missed the post. I am trading up for lighter bike, but will replace the stock tubulars (1250gm) with the right clinchers that hopefully won't add a 1/2 pound or more.

I am buying clinchers and other components now to enjoy briefly on current bike then move to new bike. I should have bought the new bike in the first place but wasn't experience enough (or I evolved too fast)


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

I read the post. I looked at the SuperSix Evo Red Racing on the Cannondale website, but couldn't find any info about it weighing 14lbs. Can you post a link where you found this...or did you add up the weight of the parts yourself?

Honestly, I'm dubious of you finding 1300 gram clinchers that will support your weight...but I wish you the best of luck finding them.

I owned a set of Enve 3.4 Smart System wheels built with Tune hubs that weighed 1330 grams. These might carry you...but they're not 1300 grams (or less).

My current wheels are 2013 Mavic R-SYS SL at 1295 grams, but I think you're over the recommended weight limit (which I think is 190lbs).

Brand new Vision TC24 wheels are selling for $650.
New Vision Trimax TC24 700c Carbon Tubular Road Bicycle Wheelset with Skewers | eBay


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

tvad said:


> ....SuperSix Evo Red Racing ... couldn't find any info about it weighing 14lbs. Can you post a link where you found this...or did you add up the weight of the parts yourself?


Weighed at LBS at 14.2 lbs. You are right about the Vision's. Maybe I'll let my son destroy them.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Bravo for the weight loss and continued strive for more. I think the point many of us are making, is you get diminishing returns with buying light equipment. It sure is fun, but it gets pricey fast. Ultimately the bulk of the weight of the machine is you. Increasing your power to weight ratio will make you alot faster than dropping a few pounds off the bike. So, keep at the weight loss, maybe take $1k or more of your budget, put it towards a coach and spend the rest on a nice set of alu clinchers that are reasonably light and built to support your weight for the long haul. IMO, much better use of your cash.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

krisdrum said:


> Bravo for the weight loss and continued strive for more. I think the point many of us are making, is you get diminishing returns with buying light equipment. It sure is fun, but it gets pricey fast. Ultimately the bulk of the weight of the machine is you. Increasing your power to weight ratio will make you alot faster than dropping a few pounds off the bike. So, keep at the weight loss, maybe take $1k or more of your budget, put it towards a coach and spend the rest on a nice set of alu clinchers that are reasonably light and built to support your weight for the long haul. IMO, much better use of your cash.


I agree. I've already am in training at VeloSF.com three to four times a week plus weekend rides for past six months. I am surrounded by pro racers and have thrust myself into a steep learning and conditioning curve whereby I've compacted years into months. This rapid transforming has compelled me to be dissatified with current bike snd wheels. 

It is obvious that there is not a straight forward answer due to my weight to find the next alum clincher. I think riding a few at Sea Otter will help me find a happy solution on par with what my new peers are sporting without breaking the bank. I am in a gray zone, but having fun.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> It's the name given to the house-brand rims of BWW. They're fine. I did most of last season on a 27mm deep set on their current Race wheels.


Which wheel is this? The braking surface looks black, or is that just the picture?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

jspharmd said:


> Which wheel is this? The braking surface looks black, or is that just the picture?


That pic of mine is their Race wheelset. All their brake tracks are CNC ground and therefore silver.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> That pic of mine is their Race wheelset. All their brake tracks are CNC ground and therefore silver.


I thought brass nipples was the way to go? Pure build comes with aluminum nipples.
PURE Podium Race


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

So, I created a summary of all the recommendations that flowed from the replies in this thread. Seems like aero feature of the PURE custom build is a winner unless I am missing something. Hope to test ride these at Sea Otter and perhaps the HED's.

CUSTOM BUILD
Velocity A23 OCs rims with Tune Mig/Mag hubs at 24/28 (@ 1360 grams)

HED C2 rims with Alchemy ORC-UL rear hub (@1450 grams)

H Plus Son Archetype rims and Alchemy hubs

Pure Podium Race 
$800 (@1410)
PURE Podium Race 

Pure Podium Superlight Race
$900 (@1366)
PURE Podium Superlight

Kinlin XR270 rims with Alchemy hubs
$900 (@ 1380)
http://www.zencyclery.com/road-wheels/siddartha-custom-wheelset.html

FACTORY BUILD
Shimano WH-RS80 C24 Carbon Wheels
$600 (@1516)
Shimano WH-RS80 C24 Carbon Wheels > Components > Wheel Goods > Road and Cross Wheels | Jenson USA Online Bike Shop

Fulcrum Zeros 
$1000 (@1460 grams) FULCRUM Wheels - Products: Racing Zero 2-Way Fit 

HED Ardennes FR
$1300 (@ 1450 grams)
HED Cycling Ardennes FR 

IndustryNine i45
$2600 INDUSTRY NINE : : : - i45 (@ 1360 grams)

Enve SES 6.7
$2800 (@ 1458 grams)
Road Bike Carbon Fiber Wheelset / Carbon Fiber SES 6.7 Road Wheels


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

duffin said:


> I thought brass nipples was the way to go? Pure build comes with aluminum nipples.
> PURE Podium Race


Why you think that? Every wheelset I've built for myself in the past, hmmmm, 20 years or so has had aluminum nipples. I've had one nipple failure and I know why that happened. BWW don't seem to offer too many wheesets with brass nipples so I guess they must have good luck with them too. But I'll be the first to say this - the best feature of aluminum nipples is their colors.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

duffin said:


> I agree. I've already am in training at VeloSF.com three to four times a week plus weekend rides for past six months. I am surrounded by pro racers and have thrust myself into a steep learning and conditioning curve whereby I've compacted years into months. This rapid transforming has compelled me to be dissatified with current bike snd wheels.
> 
> It is obvious that there is not a straight forward answer due to my weight to find the next alum clincher. I think riding a few at Sea Otter will help me find a happy solution on par with what my new peers are sporting without breaking the bank. I am in a gray zone, but having fun.


Do the folks you ride with pay full-price for their wheels? Many racers ride what they're given or what they get at a steep discount. What's best for a semi-pro/sponsored racer isn't necessarily the best choice for someone who isn't racing.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

GRAVELBIKE said:


> Do the folks you ride with pay full-price for their wheels? Many racers ride what they're given or what they get at a steep discount. What's best for a semi-pro/sponsored racer isn't necessarily the best choice for someone who isn't racing.


Retail with maybe a 20%-30% discount.


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## Hetfield (Feb 26, 2013)

Ever thought about the new Zipp 202 Firecrest Clinchers? 

They are sub 1400g and with good aero advantages over classic box shaped rims. Their weight limit is 250lbs so you're ok. Only disadvantage is price, but you might get a good deal with a bit of searching.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Hetfield said:


> Ever thought about the new Zipp 202 Firecrest Clinchers? They are sub 1400g...


Also consider the new Roval CLX40. Blunt rim, 40mm depth, 23mm wide, 1396 gm. $2200 list.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

the PURE Podium Superlight is going to be as light as you can get built in that dollar amount. It's the best value, IMO. If you go the build your own route i would recommend visiting the the bikehubstore website 
BikeHubStore.com They'll have everything you need and a spoke calculator. the Pure Light looks it's built using the KINLIN xr-200 rim. Use the sapim race on the rear and the lazers on the front. If there's a shop in the hood that could do them and you trust they're abilities, let them. You'll get a wheelset in the $500 range this way.


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## RoadrunnerLXXI (Jun 3, 2012)

Take a look into Boyd's Vitesse Wheels. They are 23mm wide, 28mm deep. Though they are 1508gm, but only cost $650.

2013 Vitesse alloy clincher - Boyd Cycling


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

looigi said:


> Also consider the new Roval CLX40. Blunt rim, 40mm depth, 23mm wide, 1396 gm. $2200 list.


I have these on my SL4 Roubaix. Nice wheels if you are looking at a carbon clincher.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

scottma said:


> I have these on my SL4 Roubaix. Nice wheels if you are looking at a carbon clincher.


I've only read about them. I've been looking around to find a shop that has a set so I could take a look at them. Places I tried said they don't plan on getting any in but would be happy to order them for me. They stock all the Zipp Firecrests though.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

They are hard to find right now. The stock goes on new bikes. I hear they wont really be available for purchase till June. By chance when I bought my Roubaix, they were selling a never ridden set that were a takeoff from an S-WORKS Tarmac at a very good price. I wasn't in the market for a set, but knew of them and for the price they were asking, decided to grab them.
View attachment 276245


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## reig3 (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks for this discussion guys. I changed my thinking and plans to purchase till I get where I need to be to get the most out of a set of new wheels. (Not a weight weenie but like the idea of getting the bike lighter)

Bob


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

You need to consider *American Classic *wheelsets. My shop has recommended and sold them for 15+ years. They are light (One model is likely the lightest available), reliable, easy to service, and ride nice. Good luck.


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

refund!? said:


> You need to consider *American Classic *wheelsets. My shop has recommended and sold them for 15+ years. They are light (One model is likely the lightest available), reliable, easy to service, and ride nice. Good luck.


I have no problem with AC, but they are not a good fit for the OP. Their hubs are not the strongest and they are not a particular bargain. For a bigger guy that might be the last brand I would recommend. I am attracted to some of their MTB offerings, but that is based on little more than a mild aesthetic appeal. 

For the money the OP would be much better served with hand built wheels, which can be designed or his weight. Incidentally, they could also be made much lighter than AC's lightest offering.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Hetfield said:


> Ever thought about the new Zipp 202 Firecrest Clinchers?
> 
> They are sub 1400g and with good aero advantages over classic box shaped rims. Their weight limit is 250lbs so you're ok. Only disadvantage is price, but you might get a good deal with a bit of searching.


I was thinking the same thing. Just got a set with My S-Works Roubaix SL4, they are excellent. Fairly light at sub 1400gms, stiff, great ride quality and really excellent braking (far better than I was expecting) with DA9000 levers and callipers. Not the be all and end all for sure, but worth considering....


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

This looks to be a bargin for Fulcrum Racing 1 clinchers (@1500 grams) for below $700 at PBK.

http://www.probikekit.com/us/fulcru...utm_campaign=ENPBK-_2093379796&affil=thgemail


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## tojnom (Feb 29, 2008)

*What did you decide?*

Bump...What did you end up with? I've been eyeing the Velocity A23 w/ Tune Mig/Mag for a couple weeks now.



duffin said:


> So, I created a summary of all the recommendations that flowed from the replies in this thread. Seems like aero feature of the PURE custom build is a winner unless I am missing something. Hope to test ride these at Sea Otter and perhaps the HED's.
> 
> CUSTOM BUILD
> Velocity A23 OCs rims with Tune Mig/Mag hubs at 24/28 (@ 1360 grams)
> ...


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

tojnom said:


> Bump...What did you end up with? I've been eyeing the Velocity A23 w/ Tune Mig/Mag for a couple weeks now.


I don't think that I could personally purchase that wheelset over the same set built with R45's, just because of the reliability issues with the older Mig/Mag hubs. However, if you built it up I would most certainly drool over it, especially if built with silver hubs and spokes.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

duffin said:


> Interesting idea. Concerned with all the reports that they will not be stiff enough at my weight and watts.
> 
> I also have not see where they are listed below 1400 grams.


What kind of watts do you produce?

The DuraAce C24s, or Zipp 303s would be my pick without a doubt. Both choices are plenty stiff.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I would go with Pacenti SL and White Industries T11 hubs. Up your weight to 1500g and you will save a bunch of money and have a really nice and durable wheelset with probably the latest and best in aluminum clincher technology. Tune hubs are just expensive eye candy. Spend the money somewhere else.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

jsedlak - not sure how to answer the what question but the pros I train with are I impressed for a newbie.

Up until a week ago, I was running a stock pair of Mavic Kysrium Equippe that would flex on climbs (brake rub). Then I took my bike into SF on the roof and a parking attendant who sees it every AM during my training had a brain fart and drove it into an I-beam.

Insurance is paying for a 2103 Cannondale Evo Hi-Mod Red Racing that comes stocks with Vision TC24 carbon tubulars that weight 1200 grams. I have been training 4-5x a week putting in 125+ miles down and now ready to try some racing. 

But I am not comfortable taking the tubulars out on long rides or group rides and carrying a spare. I will save the Vision's for certain situations like races or rides with good SAG.

So after day 1 at Sea Otter, I stumbled around and found the new 2013 HED Ardennes+ to be too cool to pass up. With a wider rim profile of 25mm outer/21mm inner, tubeless ready and hub convertible to future disc while being 1400 grams, I think my search has ended. But there is still day 2 & 3 ahead.

In the booth they had a rim to play with and dared me to bend it. I could not. Sold. Or was that snake oil? lol

When I have the kids college and my retirement paid for, then I will go buy sexy to be the Enve of all.


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## tangerineowl (Sep 1, 2012)

Thought I'd add Soul wheels (Singapore) to the mix.
Pretty good price for weight options.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

My new wheels. 

Thumbnail Gallery Photos | Cyclingnews.com


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## Agent Dark Booty (Oct 19, 2012)

duffin said:


> My new wheels.
> 
> Thumbnail Gallery Photos | Cyclingnews.com


So what do think about your new wheels now? I figure you've put some miles on them this summer.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

ergott said:


> Building a bike to a number is a bad idea. Get the right components and don't weigh the bike. I stopped weighing my bike a long time ago.


This post should be pinned in the masthead here. Bike weight below about 22 pounds is entirely meaningless for 99.999% of riders (including the vast majority of racers). Unless you're riding the TdF with a full team of mechanics behind you repairing your bike every night with a truck full of sponsor-donated parts, functionality, durability and reliability should be much more important than grams saved. This is especially true for a 6'3" 200 lbs guy doing club rides. If you absolutely need a new set of wheels after riding on the road for one year, don't blow $2K+ on a set of exotic racing wheels. Get something quality like the C24s or Fulcrum 1s and call it a day.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Cooper1960 said:


> HED Ardennes SL or FR, you can get either in a stallion build to suit your weight and not sure exactly but I think weight is under 1475. . .


Brilliant wheels. I have the the Ardennes FRs and can't say enough good things about them, and I've had/have Campagnolo Shamal Ultras and Bullet Ultras. I'd buy the HEDs over anything mentioned so far.


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## duffin (Jun 11, 2012)

Agent Dark Booty said:


> So what do think about your new wheels now? I figure you've put some miles on them this summer.


I like them on my 2013 SuperSix EVO HiMod with all Dura Ace 9000 and Bontrager tubeless R3s.

When these wheels are combined with stiff cranks (Cannondale SiSL2), Cannondale spider rings and hi-mod frame, it is a super stiff setup and my friends complain I am able to get up 9% grades faster. However with the tubeless 25mm, it is a soft ride. Best of both worlds.

Still working on getting rear brake setup just right since the DA 9000 aren't modulating perfectly with 25mm wide. Trying new brake pads this week.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

Hey, Aero vs. weight on a wheelset? I'm just not sure which could be better.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Maybe this will help anyone looking for lightweight aluminum clinchers. Just mind your weight.

Review: Fairwheel Bikes Lightweight Alloy Clinchers | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos


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