# Mario Cipollini- cleanest rider of his era?



## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

So Cipollini's comeback attempt (or publicity stunt) got me thinking, during an period of cycling when oxygen-vector doping was rampant, were there any indications that Cipollini was reliant on EPO or blood doping for his wins? Almost all of his wins were from stage races. He was winning in 89/90/91 and was more successful in the classics in the early 90's, before the ubiquity of EPO. From the doping perspective, Cipollini dropping out of races at the first major mountain is understandable. If you look at his palmares, the only races that really stick out as EPO-useful are two of his red jerseys and the last MSR and G-W. 

I'm not arguing that Super Mario was clean, just that most of his wins look like the result of hard work and talent as compared to someone like Bjarne Riis or Johan Museeuw.


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

The more dope he's using the stronger he is going to be at the point of the final sprint, you do realize the sprinters still have to ride their bikes over the same route as everyone else, right? The more dope he uses between races, the harder he can train - back to back double sprint sessions on consecutive days vs alternate days: no contest.
Doping to allow you to ride hard in training and recover faster is how you win races. Comprendez?

Leave the romanticism at the door, everyone was on it in the 90s.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Cipo was one of the rare riders to have worked with both of the more notorious doping doctors of the 1990's, Michele Ferrari and Luigi Cecchini. He was a great showman but he was hardly clean


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Cipo was one of the rare riders to have worked with both of the more notorious doping doctors of the 1990's, Michele Ferrari and Luigi Cecchini. He was a great showman but he was hardly clean


Interesting, link?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

kbiker3111 said:


> Interesting, link?


Nome in codice: Pavarotti Cipollini nel dossier doping - sport - Repubblica.it

His Nickname in the Fuentes files was Pavarotti. He initially worked with Ferrari early in his career but changed to Checcini around 2001. They live less then 10 minutes from each other. Checcini sent most of his clients to Fuentes, Hamilton, Bartoli, Basso, etc.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Well he didn't _climb_ like it. . .


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nome in codice: Pavarotti Cipollini nel dossier doping - sport - Repubblica.it
> 
> His Nickname in the Fuentes files was Pavarotti. He initially worked with Ferrari early in his career but changed to Checcini around 2001. They live less then 10 minutes from each other. Checcini sent most of his clients to Fuentes, Hamilton, Bartoli, Basso, etc.


"Pavarotti"?? That's awesome.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

saird said:


> The more dope he's using the stronger he is going to be at the point of the final sprint, you do realize the sprinters still have to ride their bikes over the same route as everyone else, right? The more dope he uses between races, the harder he can train - back to back double sprint sessions on consecutive days vs alternate days: no contest.
> Doping to allow you to ride hard in training and recover faster is how you win races. Comprendez?
> 
> Leave the romanticism at the door, everyone was on it in the 90s.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying Cipollini was clean. Very likely he took as many drugs as everyone else in the peleton. Certainly the Saeco riders were doping, since they took over the race and rode at 55 kph for the last 20km. However, I don't think that EPO or blood doping was necessary for most of the wins Cipollini has.

As for your assertion that doping is necessary just to finish a stage, there is plenty of data for domestiques out there. Look at Flecha's power from a flat stage last year 250-300 watts NP for 5 hours is nothing to sneeze at, certainly, but its not impossible either. Even assuming the last 30+ minutes were done at the insane Saeco speeds, the Giro courses were very flat and a sprinter is essentially motorpacing behind his train.

2011 Tour de France Stage 3 - Power Analysis of Juan Antonio Flecha's Race


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

kbiker3111 said:


> Even assuming the last 30+ minutes were done at the insane Saeco speeds, the Giro courses were very flat and a sprinter is essentially motorpacing behind his train.


Motorpacing at high speed is difficult. There are other holes in your argument but others have pretty much covered them.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

kbiker3111 said:


> As for your assertion that doping is necessary just to finish a stage, there is plenty of data for domestiques out there. Look at Flecha's power from a flat stage last year 250-300 watts NP for 5 hours is nothing to sneeze at, certainly, but its not impossible either. Even assuming the last 30+ minutes were done at the insane Saeco speeds, the Giro courses were very flat and a sprinter is essentially motorpacing behind his train.
> 
> 2011 Tour de France Stage 3 - Power Analysis of Juan Antonio Flecha's Race


Not impossible, but consider how believable doing 10+ "not impossible" days in a row is.

Following a lead out train is not easy. Many riders are dropped out of the group on those flat days and not for not trying.

FWIW, Cipo can climb. He can climb very well (so can Zabel, Friere, all of them). One has no hope of winning Milan-San Remo without the ability to climb blisteringly fast. He was practical to a fault, knowing he would not get results in the mountains, he'd mop up stages until the big mountains then bail so that he could go on to other races and continue to do well for the rest of the summer. When he admitted to what he was doing ASO got insulted and stopped inviting him. A terrible disservice to their advertisers in my opinion, leaving out the most exciting sprinter in the world can't have helped viewership and ratings in the 1st week.

OH, and "Oxygen-vector doping"? Is it me or did cycling invent this terminology? I googled "oxygen vector" and got pages of hits about fermentation. I googled "oxygen vector doping" and got nothing but cycling. This thread was at the bottom of the 1st page.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> OH, and "Oxygen-vector doping"? Is it me or did cycling invent this terminology? I googled "oxygen vector" and got pages of hits about fermentation. I googled "oxygen vector doping" and got nothing but cycling. This thread was at the bottom of the 1st page.


JV invented the term. It covers a wide group of blood related doping


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

davidka said:


> Not impossible, but consider how believable doing 10+ "not impossible" days in a row is.
> 
> Following a lead out train is not easy. Many riders are dropped out of the group on those flat days and not for not trying.
> 
> ...


Re Cipo, how do we know for sure? Isn't this what all the doping controversies boil down to? 

The term seems apt though, no?

A vector is a carrier. Oxygen carrier doping, in the case of EPO or blood doping, by increasing the number of carriers.

With fermentation the object seems to be to increase the efficiency of the mechanism..


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Geez, the guy got pulled over for motorpacing on an autostrada. What more do you need to know?


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