# Replace or Upgrade my Allez Expert?



## kananaskis (May 14, 2007)

Hi all,

Sorry this is long, but it's a 2-3 year decision for me!

I need some advice. I ride a 2005 Allez Expert. I bought it new 3 years ago and ride it quite a bit for training (mtb.) and a few rides with friends. It has Ultegra 6600 and Mavic Kyrium Equipe wheels. 

I've been checking out the new 2010 Tarmac Expert and Roubaix Expert Compact, but I’m not sure I want to spend that kind of cash ($4000 Cdn or so). So, I’ve been thinking of upgrading a few parts on the Allez. I want compact, need a chain and a cassette, was thinking about changing the whole group to SRAM Rival and selling the old parts on E-bay. You can find great prices on Rival all over. 

As well, my wheels are around 2000 grams for the set was going to buy Williams System 30X instead and save almost a pound! As well want to try a compact bar like the FSA compact, have always hated the Specialized bar on the bike!

Was the Allez a good frame worth spending $1200-$1400 on, or do I keep saving for the new Carbon bikes? It fits and rides nice, but I’ve never stripped it, any idea of what a E5 Alloy in a 58 frame would weigh? It was my first road bike.

I also do my own wrenching, so that’s not a big deal. I don’t want a carbon vs. mixed material frame discussion, just wondering if it’s worth spending money on. 

Carbon is beautiful but, my frame is in perfect shape. Would carbon handle and ride any better?

Any thought?


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

In...2008 I think? I test rode all the levels of the Tarmacs (and the upper end Allez), and I definitely thought there was a difference in handling between each one. I, by far, preferred the full carbon Tarmacs, and the upper level ones at that. The only thing is, the Allez's I rode were definitely different than the Allez you're riding. I can't tell how it would be for you.

I would suggest you go to the bike store and test ride them back to back to back, for as long of a ride as you can get away with (I did 45 minutes on each one).

Just to be confusing, I'll throw in another option - rather than buying an Expert, you could buy the next frame up and move over your components - here's the Tarmac Pro SL Frameset:
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45874&eid=4350&menuItemId=9256

$2k US for just the frame, but it's the "nearly top end" frame.

Good luck.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

kananaskis said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry this is long, but it's a 2-3 year decision for me!
> 
> ...


There is a bike shop owner on another forum who has shared an interesting and amusing story time and time again. Apparently, a customer came into the shop and raved about how wonderful his carbon framed Trek felt when he was riding it. He loved it and was certain he couldn't have purchased a better frame. The shop owner and nearby employees who knew the bike he had purchased started looking at each other and scratched their heads. Why the apparent perplexity? Because the customer had purchased an aluminum framed bike not a carbon framed bike. Why does he share this story? Because carbon ain't the end all and be all of cycling frames. A carbon frame can be as harsh as an aluminum frame and an aluminum frame can be as plush as a carbon frame. There are so many variables (tire pressure, saddle, position of saddle and/or bars, etc.) that you can tweek to adjust the feel of your bike. I write this in an effort to indicate that better handling is fairly subjective and depends on how the frame is constructed. Take a look at Cannondale's CAAD 9 aluminum bike - that's a racing machine that handles great. It's spec'd out with Dura Ace components and goes for $3,000. Very nimble and very quick - aluminum frame.

So, I don't know. It's your money and your bike but I would be tempted to make some small changes to your current bike and save your money for a new bike that really has everything you want. PaulRivers makes a good suggestion too. You can get the Specialized Tarmac Pro frame for around $2,000 and build that up. I'd keep your old Allez though because you'll want a bike that you can ride when the weather isn't so great. You may even be able to get a discount on the frame during the Tour de France when Specialized has discounts on all of their bike from the Elite level on up.


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

rosborn said:


> A carbon frame can be as harsh as an aluminum frame


This is actually true - it's the weird thing with carbon fiber. It can be made to be very very forgiving, or it can be made to be very very harsh, stiff, and rough riding. It's totally weird.



rosborn said:


> and an aluminum frame can be as plush as a carbon frame.


I don't know that that's true. It is indeed hard to tell as bike manufacturers like to make the most expensive carbon frames the nicest riding so you'll have a reason to buy them. What I know for sure is that none of the aluminum road bikes I've ever ridden has been as nice of a ride as the full carbon ones.


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

PaulRivers said:


> I don't know that that's true. It is indeed hard to tell as bike manufacturers like to make the most expensive carbon frames the nicest riding so you'll have a reason to buy them. What I know for sure is that none of the aluminum road bikes I've ever ridden has been as nice of a ride as the full carbon ones.


Notice I did say with tweaking. You can achieve a more plush ride with aluminum framed bike by lowering the tire pressure, utilizing a more plush saddle, changing out the saddle post from a metal post to a carbon post, changing out the bar tape to one that is more padded. You have to be creative but it can be done or so I have been told.

I agree with your last sentence. I used to ride a Giant OCR1 that had an aluminum frame. Nice enough bike but I felt ALL of the road buzz. I now ride a Specialized Roubaix Comp that is a delight. Before I got the Roubaix I rode a Tarmac Comp that was a stiffer and harsher ride compared to the Roubaix. I had no problem with the ride but I did have a problem with the geometry. I was simply too stretched out on that bike for that level of my development as a rider. I got used to my Roubaix and have actually been able to have some of the spacers removed from under the stem, to achieve a more aerodynamic position, and would probably be more comfortable on the Tarmac. Still, I'd like to buy an aluminum bike for my second bike and see if I can do everything suggested by others to see if I can make it more comfortable.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

kananaskis said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry this is long, but it's a 2-3 year decision for me!
> 
> ...


Lots to consider here and most come down to opinions.

Speaking of which, IMO swapping out your Ultegra group for Rival isn't an upgrade, it's merely a swap. If you want it 'just cuz', because you want to drop a little weight or because you want to go with double tap, then do so, but considering Rival's competition in the marketplace is 105, I just don't see that as an upgrade.

If your wheelset actually does weigh in at 2k g's, then that would be the place to drop some funds. As an example, for about $500 you could go with Easton EA-90's and shave about 600g's. If you decide to go the upgrade route, bars and other incidentals (relatively speaking) should be swapped as well, just to complete the project. Is it worth it given the age and material of your frameset? Only you can decide that, but FWIW the Allez E5 frames are highly regarded.

Regarding CF ride and handling versus your alu frame, I'll say this. IME, generally speaking and all else being equal, a CF frameset will provide a discernable amount of comfort over its alu counterpart. Will CF _handle_ 'better'? Since geometry dictates handling, 'better' would depend on your perceptions/ preferences, but keep in mind that the '05 Allez shared the geo of the current Tarmac, whereas the current Allez has been dialed back (to relaxed), just a shade. Bottom line? I don't think you'd tell a difference.

You ultimately have to decide this, but if I were in your position I'd opt for a new wheelset and bars and call it a day. It sounds like you're really enjoying your Allez, so why not keep on enjoying it and start saving for that full CF bike you'll be admiriing in the not too distant future.


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## kananaskis (May 14, 2007)

Thanks for the responses. PJ352, I know Rival and old Ultegra are fairly equal, I kinda wanted to try double tap and I also like the black. However just changing the wheels and bars on the Allez may be enough for this bike. The Easton wheels look great.
Buuttt, lets say I was thinking of the Roubaix. My shop also sells the Cannondale Synapes. I know this is the _ "Big S"_ forum, but has anyone ridding both a Roubaix and Synapes. I don't see to much writting about the Synapes (3) which looks like great value with full Ultegra, BB30 FSA Cranks and RS80 wheels. It sells for $400 less then a Roubaix Expert Compact. Just wondering?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

kananaskis said:


> Thanks for the responses. PJ352, I know Rival and old Ultegra are fairly equal, I kinda wanted to try double tap and I also like the black. However just changing the wheels and bars on the Allez may be enough for this bike. The Easton wheels look great.
> Buuttt, lets say I was thinking of the Roubaix. My shop also sells the Cannondale Synapes. I know this is the _ "Big S"_ forum, but has anyone ridding both a Roubaix and Synapes. I don't see to much writting about the Synapes (3) which looks like great value with full Ultegra, BB30 FSA Cranks and RS80 wheels. It sells for $400 less then a Roubaix Expert Compact. Just wondering?


Points taken re: Rival versus Ultegra. I was simply sharing an opinion. I have the Easton EA-70's on another bike and IMO/E they're a pretty solid wheelset. Stated weight is about 1650 g's, IIRC.

I ride a Tarmac, so I'll leave it to those with more saddle time on the Roubaix to comment, but there are some points regarding geo worth mentioning. You're used to the Allez's handling, which is _very_ close in geo to the current Tarmacs. Conversely, the Roubaix's is more relaxed, while the Synapse splits the difference between the two, but with the taller HT's like the Roubaix. 

As you say, this is the Specialized forum, but realistically, if you like the handling of the Allez, you might like the Synapse - or Tarmac if you decide to go full CF. OTOH if comfort is the goal, albeit with slightly slower handling, the Roubaix might be preferred.


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## darkest_fugue (Mar 14, 2009)

i try not to get swallowed up by the marketing hype but heres something to consider, i ride an 2009 fact 7 roubaix elite which is supposed to be the most comfortable forgiving model, and as far as my experience goes with it, it is, if you have the right tyre pressure!!!!!

If i have my tires any harder than not being able to push in the tyre with my thumb to a certain degree, its a bone shaker on anything less than a smooth as glass road, people think carbon and those zerts inserts will give you a vibration free ride??? BAH, total crap in my opinion, perhaps in a lab under tests by a tiny percentage but nothing my body can notice at all, your bike would probably be just as comfortable as mine with the same tyre pressure.

People get taken in by glossy carbon weaves and sexy curves but i may have been just as happy on an 2009 E5 allez and spent the difference on some nice componant upgrades, anyone that is passionate about bikes and cycling is open to the addiction of new bikes, prettier bikes, new shiny componants, myself included, its very addictive, only yesterday i found myself down in the cannondale dealership curious to find out the price of a caad 9 ultegra,

do you know they dont sell the caad where i live, the guy said nobody wants them so he doesnt stock them, he then directed me to a mint condition second hand 2010 supersix hi mod with full sram red reduced to 2700 euros, despite the hideous paint job, after trying it, experiencing its feather weight, its super crisp shifting, its comfortable yet incredibly racy feel, i felt myself breaking out into cold sweats looking for ways in my head to justify forking out for it when i have a perfectly fine road bike that i enjoy, this sport is addictive and often i have to tell myself to get a grip

Anyway sorry i was getting away from the subject matter, your frame is also quite sought after, ive come across numerous people on the look out for the older E5 frame, its reasonable light, its stiff, quite comfortable and quite raceable too, if i were you id upgrade to what you feel would personally improve the bike for you, if it were me id just get myself a nice set of light fast rolling wheels and ride that baby


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

darkest_fugue said:


> if it were me id just get myself a nice set of light fast rolling wheels and ride that baby


I agree with everything you wrote but particularly this.

Funny about the breaking into a cold sweat thing. I do the same thing whenever I go into a bike shop and see a bike that I instantly fall in love with. Used to be the Cervelo RS but I saw an Orbea Onyx the other day that made my heart skip a beat. Like you, I have a 2009 Specialized Roubaix that is a great bike so I won't be doing anything crazy for awhile. However, that doesn't stop me from running the numbers in my mind. The Boss, however, would never approve such a purchase.


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## darkest_fugue (Mar 14, 2009)

well everyone has their problems, my girlfriend is very understanding of my expensive hobby, the strictest disciplinarian with my finances is me, i could afford that bike and its a good deal, thing is though im a pro musician and with the world wide recession going on i dont know when where and how im gonna get paid, i get by but you never know when im gonna hit a dry spell or when it comes in easy, the super six isnt even an attractive bike, as i said the paint job is awful and it has no radical curves, when i tried it though i forgot all about that, and its nearly 2 kilos lighter than my bike, the kid in me is like yeah lets get it, but my sensible side is like, are you nuts!!!!


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

darkest_fugue said:


> i try not to get swallowed up by the marketing hype but heres something to consider, i ride an 2009 fact 7 roubaix elite which is supposed to be the most comfortable forgiving model, and as far as my experience goes with it, it is, if you have the right tyre pressure!!!!!


Actually, when I was test riding bikes I rode an Orbea that was definitely a more plush ride than the Roubaix. There wasn't a thing on the road that bothered me with that bike.

The drawback was that it didn't have that stiff, responsive feel like most of the Specialized bikes have. It didn't have that "get up and go" feeling. Riding downhill on cobblestones, the steering just sorta dissapeared giving me an "OMG, where did it go??" feeling. (To be fair, obviously downhill on cobblestones isn't a terribly common experience, and you just had to slow down to avoid it.)

But it was a *very* *comfortable* ride.



darkest_fugue said:


> If i have my tires any harder than not being able to push in the tyre with my thumb to a certain degree, its a bone shaker on anything less than a smooth as glass road, people think carbon and those zerts inserts will give you a vibration free ride??? BAH, total crap in my opinion, perhaps in a lab under tests by a tiny percentage but nothing my body can notice at all, your bike would probably be just as comfortable as mine with the same tyre pressure.


But have you *tried* doing that with an aluminum bike, or is it just an offhand opinion? A lot of times if we have our expectations high and they aren't met we think "oh, the less expensive option would have been fine", but if you haven't tried it it's hard to really say.

I rode a "Pro" ($5?) 2010 Specialized Roubaix this spring, and in some ways I agree - it didn't *feel* like a terribly plush ride. You felt every bump in the road. But I've ridden stiffer aluminum bikes, and at the end of a 30 mile ride you'd feel beat up. With the Roubaix, even though you felt the imperfections, after 30 miles I didn't still felt fresh and fine after I stepped off the bike. Just sayin'.



darkest_fugue said:


> People get taken in by glossy carbon weaves and sexy curves but i may have been just as happy on an 2009 E5 allez and spent the difference on some nice componant upgrades, anyone that is passionate about bikes and cycling is open to the addiction of new bikes, prettier bikes, new shiny componants, myself included, its very addictive, only yesterday i found myself down in the cannondale dealership curious to find out the price of a caad 9 ultegra,


Lol! This is funny... :-D Seems like while you may or may not gain anything with a carbon frame, what you would get with new, shiny components would be even less! I can barely tell the difference in riding between my Tiagra/Sora bike and my 7800 Dura-Ace! Seriously. It's amusing - I liked your bit in the next section about "get a grip (on buying shiny new stuff).  Now - I just have to go decide which $700 bike light I'm going to keep, and which I'm going to send back...hehe



darkest_fugue said:


> do you know they dont sell the caad where i live, the guy said nobody wants them so he doesnt stock them, he then directed me to a mint condition second hand 2010 supersix hi mod with full sram red reduced to 2700 euros, despite the hideous paint job, after trying it, experiencing its feather weight, its super crisp shifting, its comfortable yet incredibly racy feel, i felt myself breaking out into cold sweats looking for ways in my head to justify forking out for it when i have a perfectly fine road bike that i enjoy, this sport is addictive and often i have to tell myself to get a grip
> 
> Anyway sorry i was getting away from the subject matter, your frame is also quite sought after, ive come across numerous people on the look out for the older E5 frame, its reasonable light, its stiff, quite comfortable and quite raceable too, if i were you id upgrade to what you feel would personally improve the bike for you, if it were me id just get myself a nice set of light fast rolling wheels and ride that baby


I agree that the older Allez frame is probably a pretty nice frame. I think the ride carbon frame would be more comfortable for long rides, but even I don't think it would actually be much (if any) faster. Better wheels would have more of a feel of riding faster, though it's a matter of some debate whether it's pure perception or whether they actually make a notable difference - but people usually seem happy with upgrading their wheels.


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## DonDenver (May 30, 2007)

LMAO with the DF post. Darkest stuff that was and agree that all the Rou shaping, compliance tuning and zertz dampening won’t work for those with glass bones otherwise you should be riding 32’s at half pressure :wink5:


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## darkest_fugue (Mar 14, 2009)

i have to say i never feel beaten up on the roubaix nomatter how long i ride for, the roads are mostly good here though, it does cause fatigue in my hands on long rides, i try to move them around the bars and all that but they do get achy, my favourite position is just behind the hoods, i may invest in one of those fatter flatter ergonomic bars in the future, also the new ultegra and sram hoods are more comfortable than my 105 shifters for resting your hands on,

i did get to take an allez on a 20 mile ride recently and i didnt find it harsh at all, which is kinda why i was ranting a bit back there because i was surprised i didnt notice much difference, im really light and not a powerful rider so i dont flex anything, you can give me a super stiff frame or a noodly one i probably wont notice it like a heavier rider would, i had one of those carbon posts with the zert insert in it that came stock with the roubaix, it weight a ton, it was disgracefully heavy in fact, over 300 grams if i remember right, changed to a kcnc scandium, did i feel a difference in ride quality? did i miss that vibration damping cushy carbon post protecting my bony ass hole from the horrors of high frequency road buzz????? hell no!!!!! both posts felt exactly the same, and i can say that with brutal honesty because i had 1000 miles on the carbon post before i changed.

As for the componants thing my 105 stuff shifts flawlessly after 4000 miles and everything works like clockwork, except for the damn squeak in the hub of my ultegra sl wheelset which i upgraded to, re greased the hub but it just wont go away, and whats more infuriating, it comes and goes, thats another story though, ive actually heard complaints that the new ultegra shifters have friction in the shifting caused by the cables now running under the bar tape, shame if thats true because it looks really nice and tidy

by the way 700 dollars for a bike light??? powered by cold fusion?? dilithium crystals?? have you got a pic of it, id like to see what a 700 dollar bike light looks like


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

darkest_fugue said:


> i had one of those carbon posts with the zert insert in it that came stock with the roubaix, it weight a ton, it was disgracefully heavy in fact, over 300 grams if i remember right
> ...
> by the way 700 dollars for a bike light??? powered by cold fusion?? dilithium crystals?? have you got a pic of it, id like to see what a 700 dollar bike light looks like


It looks like this:









It's a Seca 900.
https://www.amazon.com/Light-Motion-Seca-Ultra-Bike/dp/B002OCSL4

Here's a picture of the less-powered 700 version -









Someone who thinks 300 grams is "a ton" and "disgraceful" should really have no problem with a $700 bike light.


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## darkest_fugue (Mar 14, 2009)

of course i can see the point of it if you ride in the dark on pitch black roads all the time, i was just kidding around, by the way i was being kind when i said over 300 grams, even the guys in the shop were shocked at the weight of this thing when i handed it to them, they thought it was just stupid, remember its not the same as the one on the higher end models, nor is it the carbon wrap thing on the allez, it was just a lead weight weapon of a thing unique to the roubaix elite, i cant believe its on the 2010 model, that thing is a monstrosity!


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## kananaskis (May 14, 2007)

Well that got outta hand! 
Was at the bike shop yesterday and after looking at stuff in the $3-4K cdn. range, I think I'll keep the Allez for a couple more years and do some upgrading, staring with wheels. The raw frame with carbon stays looks to hot.
Nothing new jumps out at me, they all kinda look the same and all the parts specs are all the same as well! 
Can't find a bike specd' wih SRAM, they tell me me everyone wants Ultegra??? So i'll slowely pull together a Rival Group over the spring and early summer. 
What else can you do?


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## rosborn (May 10, 2009)

kananaskis said:


> Well that got outta hand!
> Was at the bike shop yesterday and after looking at stuff in the $3-4K cdn. range, I think I'll keep the Allez for a couple more years and do some upgrading, staring with wheels. The raw frame with carbon stays looks to hot.
> Nothing new jumps out at me, they all kinda look the same and all the parts specs are all the same as well!
> Can't find a bike specd' wih SRAM, they tell me me everyone wants Ultegra??? So i'll slowely pull together a Rival Group over the spring and early summer.
> What else can you do?


I just got around to looking at the 2005 Allez Expert - not sold in the U.S. by the way. That is a hot bike. Very nice. The website says it's titanium colored. I'd never get rid of that bike, even if I got a new (better?) one.


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

yeah i hear you my 06 elite aint goin nowhere

instead of the ultegra 6 i have the 105, still runs like butter, smooth
ditched the alex's added easton 70's 

but the real deal is the frame, man, the frame. still rides like a dream, love the e-5 with zertz..i mean, you spend four g's on a tarmac you will get one hell of a bike, different footprint, different ride quality too, probably. but for my money, pound for pound, e-5 remains a really solid performer...


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