# Seeking broad overview help.....



## philbennett (Jan 20, 2012)

OK, 
First off, for those without the patience for this loooong navel-gazing exercise, let me head off the snark by answering my own question up front with the only real answer possible: Dude, get a coach.
I know, I know.
I am looking around for the right kind -- and the right one -- and fully plan to do that. I believe in the value of coaching and am willing to pay for it.

But to shore me up for a few weeks until I can ID a good coach, can anyone offer advice on what kind of workouts I need the most to overcome my basic weaknesses.

My basic goal is to finish road races without getting dropped. Longer term, I’m trying to Cat up to 4 by this summer so that I can do some masters races that are large enough to have the age divisions chopped up pretty well. And yes, I’m aware that there are some 52-year-old monsters out there… but I want to race them anyway, so humor me.


Specs: 
age 50. 
Height: 5-8
Weight: 178. Can lose another 10-12 pounds at most, build is stocky., but I know this needs to improve as much as possible so I’m working that. 20 lbs gone since November.
Vo2 Max (treadmill method) 64.5


History: long-time runner and soccer player. Was first-rate sprinter in soccer, always had a step or two on anyone…but forced by knee issues turn to cycling three years ago and now embrace it, though I know I’ll never be particularly good at it.
Just want to be better.
Started in 2009 with B group rides (18mph on rolling terrain 40 miles or so,) then a year ago transitioned to A rides of 50-60 miles or so at 20-21 pace and by summer 2011 was doing weekly 32-mile race training rides with a Cat 2-3-4 bunch, though I almost always get dropped 2/3’s of the way through the ride.

I have Carmichael’s time crunched cyclist and the Cycling Past 50 books and get at least some of what they’re talking about… and I’ve done pretty well on base miles, probably averaging 10-15 hours a week since October .

Had been doing 70 miles or so at A-Pace with heavy pulls on Saturday, which recently transitioned to more serious group training, about an hour and a half, with one minute hard pulls….or a race, three so far this year.
Then 35 steady miles Sunday at 18-19 pace, Monday off, usually interval work on the trainer Tuesday , then Wednesday often a 60 mile A-pace ride with hard pulls on Wednesday (though this will transition back to race training with the cat 2-3-4 group next week), Thursday steady hour and a half on trainer if racing that weekend, or intervals if not, then Friday either off, or an easy hour on the trainer.

Training is 10-12 hours total a week.. Just started the intensity workouts on the 
trainer days, typically 3 minutes on, 3 off for 5 reps and sometimes add on some 1 on, 1 off at the end of a slower effort. Long warmups and steady pedaling on those trainer days

Here’s the problem: Despite riding more and harder, and dropping more than 10 percent in weight, I still seem to be getting dropped in races about where I did last summer when I hadn’t really trained properly. 
I can hang in there for the long speedway crits, because I can hide from the wind, but I can’t hide from the hills. 
So, what workouts will improve that? I know I’ll never be good at hills, but chrissakes, its not like we’re in mountains, these are two or three minute hills that are getting me, particularly those with not much chance for recovery after the climb, but just a leveling off, or false flat, then maybe a little more climb.


In a road race this week, two laps of the same course with two sharp hills, I got through one hill, then got dropped on the second by the lead group, which I didn’t feel too bad about since they were nearly all collegiate guys who had been training 300 miles a week. Then I feel in with the second group, the 4/5s and felt pretty strong, even took a few pulls, and felt like I belonged with the group. Got over two more hills, but then came the last one, which was 2.5- three minutes, a false flat, and then another mile of mostly up.
Halfway up the hill my legs just went, and the group that I’d felt like I belonged with went by in an instant. Once I got over the hill, they just weren’t that fast and they didn’t really stretch out on me much at all, maybe 500 yards in five miles. But the hill cooked my goose.
It feels like it’s the legs that just don’t have it, though I should add that heart rate was 174 at what docs believed was my V02max, and it’s often sitting in the high 160s for nearly the entire race and for stretches hits 181-182….docs didn’t think it went that high, maybe a function of treadmill testing.

Anyway, thoughts? Other than I type too much, which I know.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

If you are getting dropped in races you need to develop your FTP (long term power...generally defined by 1 hour max effort).

If you could put out 2000 watts in a sprint it does you no good if you are off the back after the first climb...The only way to stay with the pack is to increase your FTP (and possibly your 5 minute VO2 max).

I would suggest that instead of doing 3x3 intervals...start doing 2x20's at 90%-95% of FTP.

If you don't know what your FTP is get warmed up and go as hard as you possibly can for 20 minutes...then take a 5 minute easy spin and do it again. Average the two together and you will be pretty close to what you could hold for 1 hour.

Once you know that...get in a 30 minute warm up then do 20 minutes at 90% - 95% of your FTP, spin for 5 minutes, do another 20 minutes at 90% -95% of your FTP then cool down for 30 minutes at an easy pace. Do this twice a week.

Then get in a couple recovery rides and a good hard group ride on the weekend.

Then find a coach and listen to them...


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Carmichael's book is fine for getting in shape, but not for doing well in races.

Focus on long, hard intervals. 20-90min at 105-85% of your FTP. However you decide to test your FTP, make it consistent.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

In addition to the training tips, don't repeat the same mistakes that have cost you in races. Why are you taking pulls on climbs? (I really mean it---what is your purpose? Be intentional in your racing.) On short climbs like you're describing, you can help your cause by going into the climbs at the front and sagging back through the field (but not OTB) on the climb.


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## philbennett (Jan 20, 2012)

Undecided said:


> In addition to the training tips, don't repeat the same mistakes that have cost you in races. Why are you taking pulls on climbs? (I really mean it---what is your purpose? Be intentional in your racing.) On short climbs like you're describing, you can help your cause by going into the climbs at the front and sagging back through the field (but not OTB) on the climb.


I think you miss-read it a little... I wasn't pulling on the climbs. Indeed, I did end up on the front going up the one where I got dropped and did exactly as you suggest, sagged back. But I couldn't latch on when the tail of the group passed me. Not the usually almost-atached-but-didnt-react-in-time miss, but rather I just couldn't do the pace they were doing up the rest of the hill... 
but broadly, I probably shouldnt have done pulls at all, just immediately drifted back when my number came up.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

philbennett said:


> I think you miss-read it a little... I wasn't pulling on the climbs. Indeed, I did end up on the front going up the one where I got dropped and did exactly as you suggest, sagged back. But I couldn't latch on when the tail of the group passed me. Not the usually almost-atached-but-didnt-react-in-time miss, but rather I just couldn't do the pace they were doing up the rest of the hill...
> but broadly, I probably shouldnt have done pulls at all, just immediately drifted back when my number came up.


Indeed, I did. But I think you get the idea. 

While I think that others' suggestion to add longer-duration intervals (to raise your threshold power) is right, I don't think you need to entirely abandon your short-interval workouts, given that you struggle with exactly those efforts (e.g., short hills). However, if you're relatively new to the sport and need to be careful about taking on too much work, or if you know you can't handle doing both a couple of days of longer intervals and a day of shorter intervals within a week, then prioritize in favor of the longer stuff earlier on, and add in the shorter stuff later. Generally, if you're looking at this as a medium or long-term endeavor, consider that it's ok to sacrifice some results today for the future. 

It's worth developing a longer-term plan for your training, either with a coach or on your own with the help of some books. You don't need to map out what you'll do every day, but you might start by figuring when you'll start your next "off season" and assume that you'll decide what to do during that period when you get close to it. Assuming that's still 6 or 8 months away or so, you can try to work out what to do until then. I've been riding and racing for several years, but I still like to have a "plan" that looks ahead 3 or 4 months in general terms; I write key events on a dry-erase calendar, and I also write down big-picture descriptions of what I expect to be doing in training in any given week. I usually develop a more detailed plan for a week pretty early in the prior week. I think that works for me because I spent two years working with a very detail-oriented coach, and by the second year with him I was able to really understand how things fit together and how I tended to react to different workouts, combinations or workouts and what kind of overall training stress I could accommodate.

You might decide that you're going to prioritize the type of threshold work that was described to you earlier for the next six weeks, then consider mixing in some shorter, higher intensity intervals and cutting back (but not eliminating) the threshold workouts. My point is really just that it helps to create some structure to guide you, but that doesn't mean you need to get bogged down in trying to write down exactly what you're going to do every day from now until August (although, candidly, having an email roll in every week with my coach's prescribed workouts was really good for me).


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## bytewalls (Feb 14, 2010)

It sounds like you have a great base for sprinting and short term work, but your long term power and endurance may be lacking. This is where building a good base and periodization of your schedule can work wonders. Trying longer intervals (10-15min) as well as long slower rides too boost your endurance and muscular endurance should help get you too the finish line where you could use your explosive power to crush the field and move up in those categories. 

Also consider that you might be overworking your body. While it is good to put in lots of hours, your body also needs rest and recovery without it your body cannot build itself back up to full strength. 

When it comes to hills, hill repeats work wonders. I tell my athletes to do intervals up hill, find a long 8-10 minute climb and every 20 seconds put in a HARD 10 second acceleration. It forces your body to recover quickly or go into the pain factory. By putting those stresses on your body and then adapting you will get right to where you need to be. 

Hate to be a sales person, but you did say you were looking for the right coach: CadenceCoaching.com is my coaching business if you are interested at all the contact form emails me directly.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

philbennett said:


> .............
> Height: 5-8
> Weight: 178. Can lose another 10-12 pounds at most, build is stocky., ...........


Really?

I was "happy" being 160 and 5' 10" for the last 12 years until I looked at my belly fat one day. I thought losing that would have only meant losing 5 or so pounds but was I ever wrong. It's been more like 16 pounds and I can probably get a couple more off.

Andreas Kloden is about 6' tall and weighs 135-140. Unless you are seriously muscled up, I can't see why you think 168 is as low as you can get.

When the fat is gone, that's when you can stop losing some weight. 

For climbing, it IS all about watt/kg!


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## philbennett (Jan 20, 2012)

MerlinAma said:


> Really?
> 
> I was "happy" being 160 and 5' 10" for the last 12 years until I looked at my belly fat one day. I thought losing that would have only meant losing 5 or so pounds but was I ever wrong. It's been more like 16 pounds and I can probably get a couple more off.
> 
> ...


I hear you, and there is certainly some truth in it, but look, my chest measurement is 39 inches and when I was a lean high school athlete I weighed 163-165... and when I played soccer at Div. II level in college and had gained more leg muscle weight I weighed 170-172... there is a such thing as honestly stocky. 130-140 isn't possible, and while cavendish weight which is 155 is doable it might be so low that the diet required to keep it there would affect performance.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

philbennett said:


> ....there is a such thing as honestly stocky. 130-140 isn't possible, and while cavendish weight which is 155 is doable it might be so low that the diet required to keep it there would affect performance.


Absolutely true about the diet. In fact I'm approaching the point where I have some concern about longer rides coming up and knowing how to fuel and recover properly without all my old fat reserves. And starting out last fall, I was careful to NOT overdo training while having a calorie deficit of 500-700 per day. Now that I've upped the intensity and hours, I'm trying to be very careful to refuel.

As long as you are honest about body composition (I wasn't), then there is an optimum weight for each of us. Sounds like you know from experience where you can realistically go. 

Of course in watching the pros, you also know that the sprinters can't keep up in the mountains so depending on the route, you may face the same situation.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

MerlinAma said:


> Andreas Kloden is about 6' tall and weighs 135-140. Unless you are seriously muscled up, I can't see why you think 168 is as low as you can get.


Not everybody can pull off getting to the height/weight of the pro's...who, generally speaking, look like they just walked out of a concentration camp before the TDF.

Myself...I'm the same height as Kloden, maybe 1" shorter...at 4% body fat I'd weigh in the range of 172-175 pounds.

My race weight is 190 pounds and I could obviously stand to lose more weight...but my body tends to fight back....HARD...when I drop below 190 pounds. I've only been able to sustain 187 or so for about a week.

Of course...you have to take into consideration some of us are much more "Muscled" than the next buy. Here is my weight charts over the years:

6th grade: 160 pounds
8th grade: 185 pounds
9th grade: 225 pounds
11th grade: 235 pounds
12th grade: 245 pounds
College: 255-265 pounds

Also...take in mind at one time I had a 52" chest, 36" waist, 32" quads (I was a collegiate thrower).

From somebody who has a mesomorph build...all the muscle doesn't come off, even as time passes. I'm 41 years old now and still carry a fairly significant amount of muscle without having lifted since my late 20's.

Now that I'm in cycling...I'd love to have my power and weigh 160 pounds...I'd seriously dominate some races...but it isn't happening and I just laugh when people from the outside tell others they need to lose weight...Just look at the Pro's...if they can do it, so can you!

To funny...LOL

For that matter...any time somebody makes reference to the Pro's when it comes to fitness, body-fat, fit on a bike, etc. it's laughable because they are a "Special" breed and much different than the average individual. A "Few" on these forums may fit their mold...but it's only a "Few".

Granted...I'm the opposite end of the spectrum...but seriously, it's laughable what you brought up.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:


> ....................but seriously, it's laughable what you brought up.


Laughable? OK - maybe. But when I heard that last summer during the TDF, it did start my thinking process. How much fat was I carrying around?

I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from you. In college I weighed about 140 and at most weighed 185 when I was 27. I went to the hospital with food poisoning while at 185 and the doc was WAY more concerned about me being overweight than my current illness.

Like I said, I had convinced myself that I was only 5-7 pounds overweight so what was the point. The point was I was wrong and it took getting left behind in the mountains, looking at pictures with my belly sticking out, AND realizing that for some people, 140-145 was, in fact, a healthly weight to encourage me to make some changes.

If anything, I'd argue that we should be lighter as we grow older as muscle mass goes away and the only thing keeping weight stable is increased fat. It certainly is that way for me.

I never set out to achieve a specific weight, or weight loss. My goal from the start last fall was to improve body composition, It just so happened that the weight loss possibility (for me) was more than I thought practical.


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