# Fore/aft...



## cyclebrarian (Aug 27, 2013)

What's the best way to determine your saddle's fore/aft position?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

My short and flippant answer would be to say that I put it under my butt.

My longer answer is that I try to set up my bike so that I don't fight it when I ride. I think that the majority of my weight should be over my feet. If 100% of my weight were over my feet, it wouldn't matter where the saddle was. It could be at home. I do put some weight on my saddle, but I don't want it to screw up my form, which I think is reasonably good.

A way I can tell if my saddle is in the wrong place is if I move around on it a lot when I ride or if I scoot forward or back as I transition to riding slightly out of the saddle. An easy way to test is to put my pedals at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock and lift my butt off the saddle just a tiny bit. If my weight is balanced over my feet, I won't have to move myself fore or aft when I do that. If it's not, it becomes pretty clear.

This assumes that your saddle is at the correct height for you already. If it's too low, you're likely to do some other weird stuff transitioning between riding in the saddle and out of the saddle.

Here's an article about fit that I like, if you have other questions.
How to Fit a Bicycle


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## cyclebrarian (Aug 27, 2013)

That helps. I'll give that "life my butt off the saddle just a tiny bit" a try and see how I make out. If I have to shift fore, what adjustment would I have to make to the seat - forward or back? And vice versa. 

thanks!


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

I agree with Peter White:



> The Fore-Aft Saddle Position
> 
> That fore-aft position determines how your body is balanced on the bicycle. Your balance determines how comfortable you are, and how efficiently you can pedal the bike.
> *
> ...


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

cyclebrarian said:


> That helps. I'll give that "life my butt off the saddle just a tiny bit" a try and see how I make out. If I have to shift fore, what adjustment would I have to make to the seat - forward or back? And vice versa.
> 
> thanks!


Move the saddle so it's under where you find yourself moving your butt.

Another thing I look out for is the turbo-wedgie - sitting on the nose of the saddle - or having way too much "up in there" - sitting on the tail of the saddle. There's a place near but not quite at the back of the saddle that's designed to be sat on.


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## cyclebrarian (Aug 27, 2013)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Move the saddle so it's under where you find yourself moving your butt.
> 
> Another thing I look out for is the turbo-wedgie - sitting on the nose of the saddle - or having way too much "up in there" - sitting on the tail of the saddle. There's a place near but not quite at the back of the saddle that's designed to be sat on.


 Got it. Thanks for the info and input - I appreciate it!


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I've done a lot of thinking about fore/aft, and experimented with it as well.

I've come to believe cycling is dominated by the quadriceps and the most force is delivered on the downstroke. Effective use of the quads requires a position where they can deliver their power. I partially base this on looking at the musculature of pro cyclists, with their developed quads, particularly just above the knee cap.

The hamstrings certainly play an important role in maintaining the momentum around the pedal stroke but deliver less force than the quads in doing their job. The proof is you can lift a greater weight in leg extensions than in hamstring curls, in the weight room.

So, I feel there are 2 ways you can set up your fore/aft-at the "transition point" where the hamstrings feel dominant but moving any further forward will transfer the dominance to the quads-or-just forward of that position where the quads just begin to become the major player in the pedal stroke. The difference will likely be felt with a fore/aft change of just 3mm.

I feel that the traditional "knee over the pedal spindle" is the best method to place you very closely to either position, depending on your body's muscles, bones, and attachments. I also feel this method is best performed with an assistant, otherwise you tend to move yourself around on the saddle or change the tilt of your feet to "make" the plumb bob line up where you want. If you don't have an assistant, then try using a mirror.

Once you've set your fore/aft using the KOPS method, changes of 5mm either way yield significant results. I feel the standard amount of change you move the saddle at any one time should be 3mm. You may have to raise or lower your saddle a bit when making fore/aft changes to retain the same leg extension "feel" but I wouldn't expect it be more than the change in fore/aft.

I also recommend trying this experiment: Set your saddle full rearward or forward and ride it that way for say, 150 miles/1 week. Then change the fore/aft by 5mm (this may seem to contradict the paragraph above but you're not setting your saddle here; you're experimenting to see when you can notice a change in how the muscles are used.). Anyway, repeat every week or so until the saddle is at the other end of its range, paying attention to when you feel a change in the muscles applied to the pedal stroke. At some point you should recognize a shift from quad to hamstring predominance or vice versa. Keep a diary for each week's changes describing what you feel.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyclebrarian said:


> What's the best way to determine your saddle's fore/aft position?


Not dissing Peter White because he offers some solid advice on bike fit, but IME the methods outlined by Peter P. will better your odds of dialing in your optimal fore/ aft position. Starts with a baseline, then small tweaks are made to _dial in the ideal fit for a given rider of a given riding style_ (important, and touched on in the last paragraph of headloss's quote).

To Peter P.'s instructions I would add to ensure the bike is on level ground when measuring KOPS, or results will be skewed - and not being a fan of extremes in bike fit, I'd disregard the last paragraph (the experiment). 

IMO the problems with other methods are that they lack a measurable baseline/ starting point and are too arbitrary to ensure success.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> Not dissing Peter White because he offers some solid advice on bike fit, but IME the methods outlined by Peter P. will better your odds of dialing in your optimal fore/ aft position. Starts with a baseline, then small tweaks are made to _dial in the ideal fit for a given rider of a given riding style_ (important, and touched on in the last paragraph of headloss's quote).


Emphasis was on the idea of balance, thus why I only l copy/pasted the parts specifically dealing with that. I ended up being one of those odd exceptions where the dowel method from knee to spindle was actually way off due to my body's dimensions. The common method resulted in my saddle being way too far forward resulting in a lot of extra pressure on my hands. When I read what Peter White said about balance, I started to reconsider what felt right and I've come up with a much better fit by focusing on the idea of how I was balanced). Of course, YMMV, but it was the perfect method for me! I think of dialing in fore/aft more as an ongoing process along with height and tilt; I don't always wear padded shorts and I was surprised that even that changed my saddle height.

Anywho, points noted. Thanks for the response.


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## OWSI (Mar 11, 2009)

I find this to be a very timely thread as I work through optimizing some adjustments to my position on the bike.
I think the methods Peter P. describe make a lot of sense for determining saddle fore/aft positioning. At least that is more or less what I have done. 
Concerning the posts emphasizing balance... I am using the methods described in some of the other posts to determine stem length. I found that I was moving forward on the saddle, or had more weight on my arms then what seemed appropriate when I was sitting in the proper place on the saddle. I replaced the stem with one that was 10 mm shorter and it has helped in regards to balance and keeping me in the proper place on the saddle. 
I am by no means an expert on any this. I am only relating what make sense to me and I have tried and appear to be working for me. Others may point out the errors in my thinking.


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## JasperL (Aug 21, 2011)

I found Steve Hoggs advice helpful. It's similar to Peter White's but goes into a bit more detail. 

SEAT SET BACK: for road bikes » Bike Fit » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website


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