# Question for you riding the highest end frames......



## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

So you non-racing folks on a Madone 7 series, S-Works Tarmac, Dogma 65.1, C59, F1, SuperSix Evo, etc., was it worth it?

If you're still smitten more with the notion of the frame than your actual riding experience, try and refrain from responsing. I'll arbitrarily use 1 full year riding experince on your frame as the minimum requirement for your reply to be meaningful.

For you still left, if you had to do it over again and with the advantage of clear hindsight, would you? If so, why? Ditto if not.

If you're a fan of custom, duly noted. This thread isn't for you.

Thanks all.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I've been on a Cervelo R3SL since '09. I ride 8000-9000 miles a year. I got it as a warranty replacement for my '06 R3 that broke. I would not have bought it otherwise. My wife kept encouraging me to buy one but saving 140g over the R3 I already had didn't seem like it was worth $5k.

It's better than the R3- lighter and somewhat smoother riding. I like it a lot. With the current cycle parts and my lightest wheels it's 13.2 lbs. If it broke irrepairably I'd probably try for an R5 of some sort, although the taller head tube could be a problem.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

Depends on the type of riding you do. If you want every possible little technology advantage for club rides and $$$ is not the issue then go ahead. There are less expensive frames that deliver just as much fun and 95% of the performance. I have more than a year's riding experience on a Calfee and a DeRosa and would buy another high end bike in a heart beat if I didn't own one. 

Why the opposition to custom? ....for that kind of money you should try the kool-aid.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

SantaCruz said:


> Depends on the type of riding you do. If you want every possible little technology advantage for club rides and $$$ is not the issue then go ahead. There are less expensive frames that deliver just as much fun and 95% of the performance. I have more than a year's riding experience on a Calfee and a DeRosa and would buy another high end bike in a heart beat if I didn't own one.
> 
> Why the opposition to custom? ....for that kind of money you should try the kool-aid.


Perfect post to address my thoughts/concerns.

I neither want nor would benefit from "every possible little technology advantage". I'm old enough to be a Dad to many here. Raced more than a few decades ago (as in "past tense"), have never lost the passion for the sport. Ride often/long/hard enough to enjoy as many pastries/pies/cakes/cookies/bars as I can down as often as I can down them and still stay under 150 lbs. 3 - 5k miles per year for the past decade. Ride the Rockies, Triple By-Pass, etc., etc., etc.

If you only owned the Calfee, my reply to you would be that you wouldn't and probably couldn't understand my perspective and where I'm coming from. My assumption is that since you own a DeRosa, you understand completely. I have no beef with custom, it's a combination of being ignorant (I buy "off the rack" sizing with excellent results) and a romantic when it comes to some storied brands.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

billium v2.0 said:


> ..... and a romantic when it comes to some storied brands.


aahhh yes, that mystery ingredient.
I recommend vintage steel from one of your "storied brands". Cheaper than high-end new and far more storied. Masi, Ciocc, Cinelli, EM, Pinarello, DeRosa, Sachs, Singer, etc. Or a new Pegoretti. Colnago is a hit or miss for me. These are the true "keepers" for us older guys, my oldest child is 42.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Some are keepers that you won't part with (Time VXRS, Look 585) some are great tools that hold no romantic attachment (S-Works Venge, Pinarello Dogma Prince and Dogma)


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

SantaCruz said:


> aahhh yes, that mystery ingredient.
> I recommend vintage steel from one of your "storied brands". Cheaper than high-end new and far more storied. Masi, Ciocc, Cinelli, EM, Pinarello, DeRosa, Sachs, Singer, etc. Or a new Pegoretti. Colnago is a hit or miss for me. These are the true "keepers" for us older guys, my oldest child is 42.


What I wouldn't give to get my old "Waterford" Paramount back. Raced it for two seasons, rode it for 12 years. Craftsmanship, lugwork, etc., etc., etc. :17::17::17:

The Pinarello Asolo was memorable as well. Some of the Pegoretti frames still do it for me, but I'd hang it on the wall. Ciocc, yes please.

But:

As nostalgic as I get sometimes ("Santa" left a wool Campagnolo jersey last year, I nearly wept - the hell with cookies, I'm leaving him a slab of prime rib this year!), I like carbon. I'm old (and damn*ed fast..... for my speed), but really appreciate the current crop of carbon frames. 

I'm nearly always practical (the Paramount was my one big bicycle splurge), owning middle of the lineup frames and Ultegra or Chorus groupsets since the Paramount. That side of me is pretty sure of you're assessment that lesser models "deliver(s) just as much fun and 95% of the performance" of dearer models.

During my last Ride the Rockies I rode with an "older" guy for part of day. He was riding the top of the line model of the brand I was on. We struck up a conversation about racing (he raced in the 1970's, me in the 80's), Shimano vs. Campag (vs. Suntour) and eventually worked our way around to his choice in frames/components. That conversation left an impression. He made no excuses, no rationalizations. In buying that bike with those components, he had to make a few sacrifices in other areas of his life. Not big compromises, one less vacation for the next few years as I recall, but still enough for him to ponder the purchase. He acknowledged it was selfish, that his wife needed to be consulted as the purchase would have a small effect on her as well. With all that, he said he regretted not doing it earlier.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

ewitz said:


> Some are keepers that you won't part with (Time VXRS, Look 585) some are great tools that hold no romantic attachment (S-Works Venge, Pinarello Dogma Prince and Dogma)


Ironic you mention Look. When they came out with the 595 with the "seatmast" I was hooked. Being practical, I bought a 555. I will *never* miss that bike, but still get weak kneed at the sight of that 595 in white.

Funny what makes us tick.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

billium v2.0 said:


> Ironic you mention Look. When they came out with the 595 with the "seatmast" I was hooked. Being practical, I bought a 555. I will *never* miss that bike, but still get weak kneed at the sight of that 595 in white.
> 
> Funny what makes us tick.


Had the 595 too. Did not have the same visceral grab as the 585. 

Nice frame but more of a tool than for racing than an object d'art of cycling.

Sounds pretentious but makes sense to me.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

ewitz said:


> Had the 595 too......Nice frame but more of a tool for racing than an object d'art of cycling.


To steer thread back on track, I'm not looking to buy "an object d'art of cycling", but a top shelf "tool" (knowing full well the engine is suspect). Reads like you've owned a few choice frames. Any buyer's remorse?


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I've never suffered an ounce of buyers remorse after an expensive bike buy. Of course, I've never gone truly all the way and bought the most expensive model out there, but all told I've regretted buying the cheaper bikes much more than I ever regretted buying the more expensive ones. I'm the same way with musical instruments. The higher-end models seem to demand a higher level of commitment on my part, for whatever reason. I devote more time. I become more skilled.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

I find it amusing that you use the words Highest End and then talk about the frames that you do.


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## mrwirey (May 30, 2008)

*You live only briefly, but die for an eternity*

Riding the bike is half the joy for me.. Reliving my experiences from those rides with friends and companions is the other half. I love to tinker with my bikes and treat them as kinetic art as much as beasts of burden. Although I've ridden bikes all my life I wasn't able to afford bikes with Dura Ace or Super Record components until 2005. The same goes for frame-level. I personally purchase what fits, appeals to me aesthetically, and brings a smile to my face during the ride as well as while sitting in front me in the kitchen as I am drinking my morning coffee and typing this note. That said I do not regret purchasing most of my high-end frames, but some I do. I am less enamored of the ones with no 'off bike' personality, which for me means; if I stripped off the paint and/or decals would the bike look generic and lose its identity? I fully acknowledge Athena, Centaur, and Chorus provide 95% or more of the functionality of Record and Super Record at a fraction of the cost (I know because I own them all) and that the same holds true for Shimano and SRAM (again, I own them), but I sure do find myself staring at my 2012 Giant TCR Advanced 0 with Super Record Ti and Zipp Firecrest 808s far more than my 2012 Litespeed Xicon with all aluminum Athena 11 and Mavic Ksyrium ES. That said I love them both. I am 53 and I am a bikeaholic. I own 21 bikes today and I will hopefully be able to ride for many years to come, but eventually that too will end. In the mean time I ride/own not what makes fiscal sense, but what helps me enjoy my passion to the fullest every day.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

I spend a lot of time researching, looking at, and test riding bikes before making a decision. I brought a Seven Ti after spending a couple years looking and test riding maybe 15 bikes, mostly trying to decide on the frame material (was convinced a combo Ti/CF was the right way until I actually rode them). So I never had second thoughts or was disappointed because of all the work I put into finding the right bike for me.

I'm also as old as anyone here and I think the newest frames and technology is a vast improvement over older stuff. I still have a Waterford I occasionally ride but it and other bikes of that era are nowhere as as nice as the latest - my most current is a very light Guru with Di2 and Zipp 404s.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I have a Time RXRS which is a great ride... I rode it the other day to do run some weekend errands and doubled my mileage taking the long way home because I was having so much fun... No regrets.

On the other hand, I also have a less expensive carbon bike and a less expensive aluminum bike, and either of those are still 99% as fun to ride solo or on group rides (competitive or not) as the Time. If I had to choose only one, it'd be the the Time, but I would still be fine riding any of the other 2 bikes as my main ride. Life is short though, so why not live it up some?


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Mapei said:


> The higher-end models seem to demand a higher level of commitment on my part, for whatever reason. I devote more time. I become more skilled.


Well written, hadn't thought of it in this way. I'm guilty of and don't give a thought to this line of thnking when it comes to my tools of the trade. Thanks.



FTR said:


> I find it amusing that you use the words Highest End and then talk about the frames that you do.


Deepest apologies, my Lord. And thank you for expending Your energy on such an unworthy query as mine.



mr wirey said:


> Riding the bike is half the joy for me.. Reliving my experiences from those rides with friends and companions is the other half. I love to tinker with my bikes and treat them as kinetic art as much as beasts of burden. Although I've ridden bikes all my life I wasn't able to afford bikes with Dura Ace or Super Record components until 2005. The same goes for frame-level. I personally purchase what fits, appeals to me aesthetically, and brings a smile to my face during the ride as well as while sitting in front me in the kitchen as I am drinking my morning coffee and typing this note. That said I do not regret purchasing most of my high-end frames, but some I do. I am less enamored of the ones with no 'off bike' personality, which for me means; if I stripped off the paint and/or decals would the bike look generic and lose its identity? I fully acknowledge Athena, Centaur, and Chorus provide 95% or more of the functionality of Record and Super Record at a fraction of the cost (I know because I own them all) and that the same holds true for Shimano and SRAM (again, I own them), but I sure do find myself staring at my 2012 Giant TCR Advanced 0 with Super Record Ti and Zipp Firecrest 808s far more than my 2012 Litespeed Xicon with all aluminum Athena 11 and Mavic Ksyrium ES. That said I love them both. I am 53 and I am a bikeaholic._* I own 21 bikes today *_and I will hopefully be able to ride for many years to come, but eventually that too will end. In the mean time I ride/own not what makes fiscal sense, but what helps me enjoy my passion to the fullest every day.


I was with you right up to the highlighted portion! Holy moly! I read somewhere that the first step is acknowledging you have a problem  Seriously, I know what you're saying and you do make some good points, but at 21 bikes you place yourself in the "extreme" catagory. Life may be short, but a bicycle of this caliber will not make mine any longer.



stanseven said:


> I spend a lot of test researching, looking at, and test riding bikes before making a decision.....
> 
> I'm also as old as anyone here and I think the newest frames and technology is a vast improvement over older stuff. I still have a Waterford I occasionally ride but it and other bikes of that era are nowhere as as nice as the latest - my most current is a very light Guru with Di2 and Zipp 404s


The majority of my research is limited to reading and speaking with folks riding frames I'm interested in because of my proximity to LBS's stocking the frames I'm interested in, let alone having one in my size and/or allowing a test ride. No, my concern isn't that I'll be disappointed in the frame or complete bike, only that the actual ownership/riding can't begin to fulfill the fantasy. Also see "foreplay".

I'm of your camp when it comes to current frames/wheels/components as they relate to "the good old days". 



milkbaby said:


> I have a Time RXRS which is a great ride....... but I would still be fine riding any of the other 2 bikes as my main ride.


Yep, this is how I've justified middle or lower rung models for years, and I have been fine (BTW - nice frame).



milkbaby said:


> Life is short though, so why not live it up some?


If I apply this line of thought, I end up on the vintage Ferrari websites


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## trudeljb (Dec 6, 2012)

Thinking about Trek Madone 4.7


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Yes.

It took me a long time to find something significantly better than the bike I rode for 8 years. But after almost a year of checking out many bikes (I wasn't in a hurry...), I bought a high end bike that made a real difference.

Would I do it again? I did... because the frame isn't produced anymore, I bought a second one as backup.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Got Time said:


> Yes.
> 
> It took me a long time to find something significantly better than the bike I rode for 8 years. But after almost a year of checking out many bikes (I wasn't in a hurry...), I bought a high end bike that made a real difference.


What "made a real difference"? Ride quality? Responsiveness? What were the biggest tradeoffs (other than money)? Give me some context.



Got Time said:


> Would I do it again? I did... because the frame isn't produced anymore, I bought a second one as backup.


You know, this is how mrwirey got started


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

You can have it all in today's international bike world, so many choices as to be a daunting decision. From inexpensive Chinese carbon frames to full custom Made in USA steel/Ti/CF beauties. There are soooo many companies where you can buy a frameset and pick your group and accessories. Or just go to your LBS and buy a Tour de France level complete bike with full warranty.

For classic, Italian, new, and affordable check out this site (no affiliation whatsoever). I've only ever seen one, the owner loved it - if that means anything.
Products | PELIZZOLI world

Price doesn't sound like a major obstacle and your riding experience is excellent, so I'd vote nice Ti.
DeSalvo, Eriksen, Strong, Seven, Moots, Spectrum, Lynskey, Davidson, Black Sheep, etc, etc. Where do you live? Try a place within driving distance and go meet to the builder/see his shop - you'll be amazed how much you learn and you'll know immediately if you want to buy.

edit: if you live near central, coastal CA = you have to go meet Craig Calfee and talk bikes.
edit of edit: I re-read a post that said bicycle "as a tool" = Calfee Luna road or cyclocross


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> Being practical, I bought a 555. I will never miss that bike,


I owned a 555 and now a crappy, lowly 585. 
I miss my 555 even though my 585 is simply amazing, beautiful, timeless and better in every way.


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## threefire (Apr 5, 2004)

"worth" is an extremely subjective term. My advice --- total bike price shouldn't be more than 2 months' salaries (or if you are a newbie or just not that crazy about this sport, then 1 month is the limit).

People will say things like your legs must match the price tag on your bike, but I call BS on that. When I had good legs as a broke college student, nobody donated a top end Colnago to me, did they?


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

The "real difference" is in the "smoothness" of the ride (which of course is a rather subjective impression), however, it is a "pro-level" racing frame, so it's not some "comfort" bike.

The other difference is the lower weight, which allows me to go faster uphill (the weight differences between my various bikes are directly reflected in the uphill times on my usual ride).


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes, yes it was worth it. Both times. I'm down to 2 bikes. One is a custom Guru Photon. The other is a custom steel Cyfac. I've since sold all my other bikes, including a top of the line BMC. These 2 bikes I have left are phenomenal. 

Fit is perfect (exactly the same in both bikes). Both companies set up the geometry to match my body and needs. The Guru is more "racy" (53mm of trail), the Cyfac has a longer back end for fender mounts and such and a tad slacker in the front end (still only 62mm of trail) - though still more aggressive handling than anything you'll buy "off the shelf". Both frames are very stiff in the back end for energy transfer - though some here tell you that it's irrelevant. The front ends are torsionally stiff for better cornering. Both frames soak up the road buzz but are very lively in feel. 

Both framesets have threaded BB's. The Cyfac is set up with cantilever brakes all the mounts and braze-ons needed for full touring. Just in case I get the bug.

I'm very happy with both and would do it again.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

FTR said:


> I find it amusing that you use the words Highest End and then talk about the frames that you do.


This. He's just making the mistake that the big manufacturers want people to make. If they slap a huge price on something that does not cost them any more to make than their mid range frames then it must be "high end."

If you want high end, buy a custom Crumpton or Cyfac or Serrotta or Parlee. You'll get a frame designed for your exact size and weight, not something that is made for chubs up to 230 pounds.


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> If you want high end, buy a custom Crumpton or Cyfac or Serrotta or Parlee. You'll get a frame designed for your exact size and weight, not something that is made for chubs up to 230 pounds


Hahaha! This had me laughing all the way to the bathroom.


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## mbaulfinger (Aug 2, 2007)

Mr Wirey is my new hero! 

"I am 53 and I am a bikeaholic. I own 21 bikes today and I will hopefully be able to ride for many years to come"

53 and riding hard...i take my hat off to you sir!


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

TCR SL - just a great frame which builds into a great bike. It works perfectly for an old man (64) like me who has no intention of racing and who just likes having a top end Sunday bike. 
Is it wasted on me? I don't think so, but youngsters who steam past me on bikes costing £ks less probably think it is


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

threefire said:


> "worth" is an extremely subjective term.


That's why I'm asking current owners if it was worth it to them.



JoelS said:


> Yes, yes it was worth it. Both times. I'm down to 2 bikes. One is a custom Guru Photon. The other is a custom steel Cyfac. I've since sold all my other bikes, including a top of the line BMC. These 2 bikes I have left are phenomenal.


I ride with a guy who swears by custom. As I wrote earlier, off the rack works just fine for me. Maybe custom would be better than fine, maybe not. Custom simply holds no interest for me.



trailrunner68 said:


> This. He's just making the mistake that the big manufacturers want people to make. If they slap a huge price on something that does not cost them any more to make than their mid range frames then it must be "high end."
> 
> If you want high end, buy a custom Crumpton or Cyfac or Serrotta or Parlee. You'll get a frame designed for your exact size and weight, not something that is made for chubs up to 230 pounds.


Your definition of high end differs from mine, got it. Custom is the only true high end, to consider anything else even remotely high end is either fantasy or stupidity, check. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit (refer to next to last sentence of my original post), all righty then.:mad2:



albert owen said:


> TCR SL - just a great frame which builds into a great bike. It works perfectly for an old man (64) like me who has no intention of racing and who just likes having a top end Sunday bike.
> Is it wasted on me? I don't think so, but youngsters who steam past me on bikes costing £ks less probably think it is


No regrets, then? One of my concerns is how punishing these race frames become after a couple hours saddle time. Care to share your thoughts?


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm envious of folks who fit a stock frame; for outliers like me who have longer legs/shorter torsos or shorter legs/longer torsos, custom is the only way to get a good fit. Trying to fit on a stock frame by tweaking stem extension length, saddle setback, or other variable just leads to unacceptable fit compromises and endless frustration for some of us.


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## Warpdatframe (Dec 9, 2012)

Buying a bike over 5 grand doesn't really seem worth it unless you race. I have a c59 but that's because I have a good job and I am fast enough to justify it. If you are a lawyer who makes 130 grand a year then go for it. Just don't brake the bank for something you're occasionally going to ride lightly.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I have a really nice custom steel. To only consider high end stock frames seems short sighted. Many weekend warriors opt for custom carbon, steel, or Ti. For that same money, they could have bought a Dogma, C59, or a top end (frame/parts) Trek, Cannondale, or Specialized. I've never met anyone who regretted buying a nice bike, they knew what they were doing when they bought it.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

billium v2.0 said:


> I ride with a guy who swears by custom. As I wrote earlier, off the rack works just fine for me. Maybe custom would be better than fine, maybe not. Custom simply holds no interest for me.


So you are not interested in the real high end. Then don't try to fool yourself or us that a slapping a high price on a stock frame popped out of a mold in China is the high end. Custom carbon involves more than size and angles. A frame can be made to match the rider's weight. A stock frame is one size fits all, which with all the chubs getting into the sport, who ten years ago would have been golfing, means those stock frames have to be made for 230 pounders. Custom also allows the buyer to get whatever paint job he wants, not the two colorways the big company's marketing department decided on. 

I suppose there are those who would buy a KIA if one was the same price as a Ferrari. I don't know how many of them would refer to the KIA as high end, but maybe you would.


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> So you are not interested in the real high end. Then don't try to fool yourself or us that a slapping a high price on a stock frame popped out of a mold in China is the high end. QUOTE]
> 
> Ah! A snob
> 
> ...


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

don't regret any of the higher end frames I have bought ove the years. On the other hand I don't regret buying the salsa in 2009, which is lower end. If someone asks me about my favorite bike it's always the one I'm on that day.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

albert owen said:


> trailrunner68 said:
> 
> 
> > So you are not interested in the real high end. Then don't try to fool yourself or us that a slapping a high price on a stock frame popped out of a mold in China is the high end. QUOTE]
> ...


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> So you are not interested in the real high end. Then don't try to fool yourself or us that a slapping a high price on a stock frame popped out of a mold in China is the high end. Custom carbon involves more than size and angles. A frame can be made to match the rider's weight. A stock frame is one size fits all, which with all the chubs getting into the sport, who ten years ago would have been golfing, means those stock frames have to be made for 230 pounders. Custom also allows the buyer to get whatever paint job he wants, not the two colorways the big company's marketing department decided on.


Somewhere some custom builder is laughing all the way to his bank....


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

The OP asked about guys who don't race. I do. I ride an s-works tarmac. It's a few years old but gets the job done. 

My good friend rides a calfee -- actually he has two. He swears by his calfee. We're going to swap bikes on our next ride for a few hours so I can see what he keep racing about. That said, I'm 99% certain that me next purchase will be a 13.2lb s-works tarmac.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

albert owen said:


> TCR SL - just a great frame which builds into a great bike. It works perfectly for an old man (64) like me who has no intention of racing and who just likes having a top end Sunday bike.
> Is it wasted on me? I don't think so, but youngsters who steam past me on bikes costing £ks less probably think it is


Yea, and a lot of them brag about it and/or disparage the guys they pass as if it matters at all. 


Warpdatframe said:


> Buying a bike over 5 grand doesn't really seem worth it unless you race. I have a c59 but that's because I have a good job and I am fast enough to justify it. If you are a lawyer who makes 130 grand a year then go for it. Just don't brake the bank for something you're occasionally going to ride lightly.


Nah, it's totally worth it if you enjoy it and can afford it. Speed has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I love high end bikes. They're fun. I'm late 50s and slow!

By the way, all high end frames are not strict racing design, but that doesn't make them less high end.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Warpdatframe said:


> Buying a bike over 5 grand doesn't really seem worth it unless you race. I have a c59 but that's because I have a good job and I am fast enough to justify it. If you are a lawyer who makes 130 grand a year then go for it. Just don't brake the bank for something you're occasionally going to ride lightly.


Most of us that race don't use a high end bike. For one reason, crashes are frequent. Another, and most important to me, is I want stiffness especially for sprinting. The race bike won't be comfortable even for long training rides. A few years ago one very common race bike is the older model Cannondales - stiff, literally zero flex, and feels like a brick. But they go fast in crits.

A high end bike and especially a custom, is more for all around riding and enjoyment. I appreciate my high end bikes most on nice days when I don't have to be back at any special time and I just go out and have a good time - sometimes it's fast and sometimes it's slow.

By the way, lawyers aren't a good example of large wage earners. Maybe IT is better. I was in an auto dealership this weekend and I saw a young couple in the 30s buying a nearly $200,000 car. He was in IT.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I really don't know if it was worth it or not.
I love the way the thing handles and the road feel and I consider it a perfect frame for me. No regrets and still consider it a great purchase decision. 

But what would make it 'worth it' or not would depend on the answer to the question: Could I have gotten the same handeling and feel for less money? 

I've never ridden a lower end frame that felt and handled like it but I certainly haven't tried them all, or even close, so I really have no idea if mine was 'worth it' it or not.
I suspect not. With all the options out there it's hard to believe there's not something out that a lot cheaper that would feel the same to me. But then again I'd never be able to try every low to mid end bike to find out so I suppose there's value there. Assuming there is a low or mid end bike out there that would be just as good for me....purchasing it would be heavily dependent on luck. So I guess without trying all the mid to low end options I really can't say if it was worth it or not.

That's trying to be as objective/business like about it as I can. Subjectively, hell yeah it was worth it and I'd run out and buy the same frame today if something happened to mine.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> They slap a huge price on something that does not cost them any more to make than their mid range frames.


I don't think you really believe that. We all know top frames use different types of carbon and those better materials cost more. There's also more R&D hours put into layup and design to remove the last few grams compared to the mid-range frames. Is the price increase proportional to the improvement or even the cost? Maybe not but it clearly costs more to make.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

albert owen said:


> TCR SL - just a great frame which builds into a great bike


My buddy has one in bare carbon. Perfect layup, the manufacturing quality is as good as humanly possible. I don't see how a "custom" would be better. All the swatches are neatly cut, there are no glue runs or bubbles in the finish. And yes, it is an excellent ride as well.

Trying bikes from different designers will acheive the same result as going custom in most cases. If Brand X is not stiff enough, maybe Brand Y will be. And there are hundreds of designs out there to choose from. Custom is more about emotion than rational thinking. If you want it go for it, but don't blab on about how its better made than a Giant or Trek or Merida.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

My original post was intentionally vague to encourage responses across the brand spectrum. My post count under my current identity is low, but I've been a member here for several years. I didn't want this thread to turn into a Shimano vs. Campagnolo melodrama.

I can appeciate points made by the custom folks (although a couple of you should consider cutting back to one Testosterone patch at a time - or buying the book "The Art of Persuasion" - or both). That written, custom carbon holds no appeal to me. Custom steel does, but as wall art. If I couldn't get an excellent fit "off the rack", if my wants included a unique paint scheme or the exclusivity of a bike made specifically for me, I'd consider this route. 

No, the point of the tread was to hear from those of you who bought and ride the page one cover frame of your particular manufacturer's brochure and benefit from your hindsight.

As for me, I know the specific frame I want (lust for is a little strong, desire a little weak). I've been attracted to the brand for decades, still walk over to check out any of them that I can. Finally bought a middle of the brochure model 3 years ago. I like. Honestly, I'd be content with this bike for a long, long time. However........... I rode the model I'm considering late this Fall. It was 2 cm too large for me, had aero carbon wheels and a saddle I couldn't get comfortable on and the ride was for less than an hour, so I discount the experience almost entirely. Kinda.....almost entirely. Sorta.

On the one hand, it's *a bike*. On the other hand, it's *that bike*. On the other hand, my first two cars, combined, were less than this frame. On the other hand, it's this bike. On the other hand, this is entirely selfish. On the other hand, this will not effect us financially.............................does any of this sound familiar?

To those who've posted, thanks for some perspective. If anyone happens along who can add something, I'm not going to take any action until post Christmas and would appreciate it.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Well, I plan on keeping and riding my bike for a lot longer than I go through cars. 

Why deny yourself, you only live once. Get it and ride the heck out of it. WOOT!


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Well, I plan on keeping and riding my bike for a lot longer than I go through cars.
> 
> Why deny yourself, you only live once. Get it and ride the heck out of it. WOOT!


Dear Mr. Cinelli....

Thanks for making post Christmas seem like a very, very long time from now


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## JSWhaler (Nov 25, 2009)

I never thought of having a dream bike till I was in an accident, leaving me handicapped. The irony is that I can still ride, but do little else for exercise. My wife gave me the okay and off to Mass. where I got a Parlee bike from Bob. I love it, but then again I could probably have saved a lot of $, but then again it gives me a big smile and plan on having this bike for years to come (build date of my bike was 2010).


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## Bikephelps (Jan 23, 2012)

I have several what I consider "high end" bikes & I don't regret the purchase of any. A 2008 SWorks Roubaix with Campy Record for long distance, a 2006 Colnago E-1 converted to single speed for simplicity, commuting & fun, a 2011 Ritchey BreakAway Cross with Ultegra for gravel roads, light touring & travel, a 2001Waterford with Chorus after over 30,000 miles being repainted and my newest acquisition a 2013 Colnago 30th Aniversary Master with 11 speed Chorus replacing my 1985 Colnago Master that I broke. My "beater" / winter bike is a 2005 SWorks Roubaix with Chorus / Dura Ace. I ride & love them all.
I don't race & I'm retired from randonneuring. I'm 61 & I ride 10,000 miles a year.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

stanseven said:


> ...By the way, lawyers aren't a good example of large wage earners. Maybe IT is better. I was in an auto dealership this weekend and I saw a young couple in the 30s buying a nearly $200,000 car. He was in IT.


So the guy was the only wage earner? Their lifestyle wasn't supported by both? She wasn't the main earner - maybe a lawyer or doctor or entrepreneur? Just saying, the guy could have been a poorly paid mid-grade IT guy whose spouse earned as much or more than him in any of a number of well-compensated occupations. 

Most 30-something IT people I know have good job opportunities, but most are not necessarily higher paid compared to other occupations requiring similar academic and experience credentials. There's lots of meh IT jobs.


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

I like nice bikes, and can afford any bike money can buy. Own my own Architecture & Engineering firm and make 200K a year.

That said, I am extremely frugal and hate wasting money, but thoroughly enjoy great bicycles and new technology. Been riding for 35 years and I am 53. 

I normally purchase a new road bike every 5 year to keep up with the latest technology. In researching and riding a myriad of Bikes, I have come to the conclusion that purchasing great technology in bikes for a reasonable price, involves purchasing bikes from second tier bicycle manufacturers after they have adopted the technologies pioneered by the top tier guys.

My latest purchase (which is great) was a neuvation FC-500 with full DI-2 utegra components. Love the electronic shifting, and love this 1100 gram Monocoque frame. The bike is wickedly fast and decently light (17.2lbs fully equipped in 55cm frame). This bike smoked my trek 5.2 pilot I had previously. Much smoother , but more responsive. Have switched to tubeless 25c tires and find the combination extremely comfortable on my aging body. 

The nice thing is the bike cost $3150 delivered to my door. I tried similar bikes from trek, giant, and specialized. All very nice similar technology but 1.5K-2.5 K higher, and those you can't customize like you can the nuevation. The bike frame is korean made, but represents very current technology. Is it state of the art and 14 lbs and custom built for me, no but i didn't spend 7-10K on it either. 

I love to ride this bike and it is dialed in perfectly for me. Its not from a top teir company, but the technology and appearance of the bike is great, and it is affordable by many. 

Maybe not for everyone, but I am not a brand snob. I don't drive an infiniti, when I can get essentially the same car in Nissan for 10-15 K less. Just my observation of branding and sales of current bikes.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

It's funny, when I was poor I used to spend a lot of money on bike stuff (Tomassini with full Dura-Ace and lots of wheelsets). Now that I'm much more "fiscally secure", I'm a cheapskate (generic Chinese with used Ultegra).

IMO, spending a relatively high amount of money on a bike is:
- a lot cheaper than splurging on a car, boat, esoteric sound system, vacation etc
- a much more "morally defensible" and perhaps even practical choice than other options. For example, the deprecation hit you take in driving an M3 off the lot alone would make for one hell of a nice bike.
- Encourages exercise, comradery and good health. Gets you out of the house and in the fresh air. These are all good things.
- Is an aesthetically great choice: to me there's nothing (inanimate) more intriguing that the minimalist beauty and fully visable engineering of a quality bicycle.

However, in a "blind taste test" would a top of the line bike offer significant, real world advantages over a cheaper bike? In my opinion, no way. Do I get any less enjoyment out of the off-the-rack cheap-o Bikes Direct single speed I bought because it cost $430? Hell no, love that bike. Is full custom, super HM carbon, top of the line groups, or deep section wheels strictly necessary for anyone who's not a pro? Hell no.

Do I still understand and approve when I see a pudgy, middle-aged dentist on an S5 with Di2 and 404s? Absolutely.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

As far as high end frames/bikes being worth it, I'd hafta say Yes and No.

I have a high end steel frame which I've had for about 29yrs and about 7yrs ago I had the opportunity to get a reasonably high end carbon bike. After riding the carbon bike for a little better than three yrs I went back to the steel bike, and am waiting on the arrival of a new steel frame to replace the carbon one.

So yes, it was worth it to get a high end bike. 
But I will also say that no, it wasn't worth it to get a high end bike.

But I think that what it really boils down to is not the worth of the bike, but if you are a cyclist 1st or 1st an owner.

I'm a cyclist 1st.


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## shoegazer (Nov 2, 2007)

Two years ago, being divorced and between girlfriends, I decided to unapologetically shop for my dream bike. I explored all avenues but ran across a Pinarello Kobh and fell in love with it. Ordered myself the '11 Sky Kobh and custom built Enve 45T, Mavic SSC P-R, and Ambrosio Nemesis wheelsets. All CK hubbed & skinned with FMB P-R 27s.
No regrets and never even a hint of bike envy whatsoever - completely & totally satisfied. The best strategy for me was to be selfish and uncompromising - I was so rewarded that I did so. I have a few bikes that I haven't touched in 2 years now as the Kobh is my go to: Good days, rainy days, long days, race days, everyday.


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## ilovejuve (Jun 2, 2008)

i hear ya. totally agree. when something great comes out, something better is always around the corner. my wife knows i think like this and gets concerned.....ha ha


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I bought a Tarmac SL3 S-Works a few years ago.
Was it worth it? Yes, partly because I just bought the frame and built it myself.
It would have been more worth if I bought a used frameset for half the price.
Like others have said it is tool that I don't feel I lot of emotion about.
I test rode a lot of other bikes and I liked the Tarmac the best, that could easily change if I test rode a bunch of bikes today. I also have a Calfee tandem. It is not custom in the sense of sizing, but it is in how they build it. To me it feels unique and the ride quality is best I ever had on any bike and I notice how good it is every time we ride it. I would say I do feel some emotion with that bike. I didn't buy a Calfee road bike because it was not possible to test ride one and was afraid it would not be racey enough for me compared to the Tarmac, bit it wouldn't surprise me if I liked it better.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

billium v2.0 said:


> Dear Mr. Cinelli....
> 
> Thanks for making post Christmas seem like a very, very long time from now



Okayyyyy....it is now post-Christmas!! What's up? Pics?? 

**


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Erion929 said:


> Okayyyyy....it is now post-Christmas!! What's up? Pics??


The importer/wholesaler has one remaining frame in my size/color in their warehouse (2012 model). Negotiating with two retailers. My expectation of a reasonable discount differs a bit from theirs. Figure Monday, being year end, is my friend in these discussions. We'll see.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

If you spend 10 hours in the saddle as I did one hot SoCal day last summer, you'll inevitably find the value of a high-end and yes, custom made frame. 

The same goes for two hours in the saddle or even one, really.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

dd74 said:


> If you spend 10 hours in the saddle as I did one hot SoCal day last summer, you'll inevitably find the value of a high-end and yes, custom made frame.
> 
> The same goes for two hours in the saddle or even one, really.


After being sized up by a custom builder what if your recommended geometry happens to match one or more top of the line mainstream carbon frames? Compared to the steel or Ti custom they'd offer lighter weight, stiffer power transfer and equal or better vibration damping. What is the argument for custom unless stock frames don't fit?


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Lelandjt said:


> After being sized up by a custom builder what if your recommended geometry happens to match one or more top of the line mainstream carbon frames? Compared to the steel or Ti custom they'd offer lighter weight, stiffer power transfer and equal or better vibration damping. What is the argument for custom unless stock frames don't fit?


It's pretty unlikely that custom geometry is going to match any stock frame _exactly_. I got my first custom frame a couple years ago and I was surprised to find that it fits far better than any stock bike I've owned or test ridden. It also rides exactly like I wanted as far as the steering, stiffness, comfort and liveliness. Custom allows you to pick more than just the geometry, it allows you to choose quick or stable steering, adequate stiffness for your weight and riding style, and as much comfort as you want.

No one should be fooled by the marketing BS that promises the average recreational rider will be significantly faster because a bike is lighter or stiffer. As far as vibration damping, picking wider rims, wider and/or more supple tires and lowering tire pressure will go a long way to providing a more comfortable bike.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

billium v2.0 said:


> If you're a fan of custom, duly noted. This thread isn't for you.


These are not the droids you're looking for.


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## ejabbale (May 28, 2011)

Whether it is worth it or not is a very individualized answer, I own a Dogma 65.1 and to me it has been worth every penny. I am no pro and I don't race but I just love to ride! I also have to be honest and say that a large part of the enjoyment for me is getting on a bike that I love to look at. The bike rides great as many do but it is the bike I truly wanted so it makes the experience that much more enjoyable for me. If you can afford it and you are drawn to it then I'd say it will be worth it. It all depends on what is important to the individual. Have fun with the experience and I hope you are able to work a good deal!


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Lelandjt said:


> After being sized up by a custom builder what if your recommended geometry happens to match one or more top of the line mainstream carbon frames? Compared to the steel or Ti custom they'd offer lighter weight, stiffer power transfer and equal or better vibration damping. What is the argument for custom unless stock frames don't fit?


It all depends upon what you're looking for. If you feel stock fits, go for it. I fit fine on my stock Ridley Orion. But I fit even better on my Serotta Coeur d' Acier (which is custom and sadly, no longer in production).

The top tube on the Serotta is slightly shorter, and the angles are a tad shallower, IIRC. But the lightness of the Columbus Spirit tubes and the carbon fork and stays, and with both bikes using the same components, has made the Serotta a lighter bike than the carbon Ridley. This is fine. The main thing is the frame fits very well, is really comfortable, and I won't feel as beaten up after a long ride as I might (and have) when on the Ridley.

The best bet for you is to be measured at a good LBS. Then have them crunch the numbers as to what your frame size should be in TT, HT, ST length and angles, and compare those figures to a stock frame. You may or may not be surprised, but it's good information to know about yourself in the long run.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

dd74 said:


> ....Serotta Coeur d' Acier (which is custom and sadly, no longer in production).


The Coeur is now the new Colorado.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> The Coeur is now the new Colorado.


Not anymore. Late last year, Serotta discontinued production of steel frames. They weren't cost effective according to the CEO, 
William Watkins.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

The paint on the S-works and Madone is cheap compared to say that of a Serrotta or Lynskey. If there is one category that a mass superduper bike can't touch a custom... is the finishing.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

dd74 said:


> Not anymore. Late last year, Serotta discontinued production of steel frames. They weren't cost effective according to the CEO,
> William Watkins.


What a shame. I guess that's the price Serrotta has to pay in acceptance of their new partnership. I can't really blame the new CEO as he's looking to get the most out of his money, and steel just isn't where the profit margin is I guess.

Having said that, I hope Cinelli does not drop their XCR stainless steel bike! I have 2 Serrotas, a Cyfac, Casati, Time, and at this moment the one bike I'm lusting is the Cinelli XCR.


edit:
I have NEVER ever regret buying any of those bikes above, and no doubt I will feel the same way should the day come I buy a Cinelli XCR too.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> The paint on the S-works and Madone is cheap compared to say that of a Serrotta or Lynskey. If there is one category that a mass superduper bike can't touch a custom... is the finishing.


I am going to agree with this. The paint on my Calfee tandem is far better than any other bike I have ever had. The paint on my S-Works is kind of a joke and i wish it wasn't, but that was not why I bought it.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> What a shame. I guess that's the price Serrotta has to pay in acceptance of their new partnership. I can't really blame the new CEO as he's looking to get the most out of his money, and steel just isn't where the profit margin is I guess.
> 
> Having said that, I hope Cinelli does not drop their XCR stainless steel bike! I have 2 Serrotas, a Cyfac, Casati, Time, and at this moment the one bike I'm lusting is the Cinelli XCR.
> 
> ...


I'm onboard to receive a Cinelli XCR. It'll have EPS on it with Bora Ultra 2s. I'm not regretting a thing. The only other frame I'd want after the Serotta is a Kirk JKS Terraplane, mostly for its beauty.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

For 2013, the XCR may be this painted finish instead of polished, which I'm kind of lusting after myself.

Cinelli XCR 2013 frameset | road.cc | Road cycling news, Bike reviews, Commuting, Leisure riding, Sportives and more


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

skepticman said:


> For 2013, the XCR may be this painted finish instead of polished, which I'm kind of lusting after myself.
> 
> Cinelli XCR 2013 frameset | road.cc | Road cycling news, Bike reviews, Commuting, Leisure riding, Sportives and more


I think that one's mine.

Somewhere on the "nets" there's an article about SS frames and how noted frame builders feel it is by far the best material available. Twice the strength of Ti, lighter and more durable by far than carbon.

I'll see if I can find it. It's really very eye opening.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

There was this recent article on builders who use stainless. No steel is going to be lighter than carbon, but I care about ride quality and not weight.

FEATURES: THE SURGE OF STAINLESS STEEL


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

dd74 said:


> I think that one's mine.
> 
> Somewhere on the "nets" there's an article about SS frames and how noted frame builders feel it is by far the best material available. Twice the strength of Ti, lighter and more durable by far than carbon.
> 
> I'll see if I can find it. It's really very eye opening.


it does not have the strenght/weight ratio of carbon. I always find it revealing that these uber-frames are matched by the manufacturer with a carbon fork - the weakest structural element of a frameset. If you want to see materials pushed to their limit, go to the velodrome - every top sprint frame is carbon. Period. 

If people are happy with their frames, then great - it's the same story as people who buy Porsches, Ferraris, and other exotic cars and then commute to work in them.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Sorry, my comma placement was wrong. I meant SS is lighter Ti, or so some have said. I know carbon will be lighter, depending on how the frame's built. Yep, and that's the article, btw.



skepticman said:


> There was this recent article on builders who use stainless. No steel is going to be lighter than carbon, but I care about ride quality and not weight.
> 
> FEATURES: THE SURGE OF STAINLESS STEEL


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> it does not have the strenght/weight ratio of carbon. I always find it revealing that these uber-frames are matched by the manufacturer with a carbon fork - the weakest structural element of a frameset. If you want to see materials pushed to their limit, go to the velodrome - every top sprint frame is carbon. Period.
> 
> If people are happy with their frames, then great - it's the same story as people who buy Porsches, Ferraris, and other exotic cars and then commute to work in them.


Don't really care about strength to weight ratio. I care more about durability, and in that, SS has it all over carbon whose strength to weight ratio can also snap it in half if crashed "properly."


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

dd74 said:


> Don't really care about strength to weight ratio. I care more about durability, and in that, SS has it all over carbon whose strength to weight ratio can also snap it in half if crashed "properly."


This.

While it's true that steel is "density challenged" and for a structure of similar strength will be heavier than CFRP with its higher strength to weight ratio, CFRP's Achilles heel is its very low elongation. When stressed beyond its yield strength, steel will deform by bending. CFRP, OTOH, will fail suddenly and spectacularly.

The Cinelli XCr frameset (XCr medium size stainless steel frame, CFRP fork) weighs 1770g (frame=1420g, fork=350g).










Cinelli's top of the line CFRP frameset (Pro Best Of, medium size) weighs 1440g (frame=1050g, fork=390g). *0.73 pounds less than the XCr frameset*










Cinelli's lightest CFRP frameset (Pro Estrada, medium size) weighs 1240g (frame=860g, fork=380g). *1.17 pounds less than the XCr frameset*










The Viner Aeternum XCr stainless frame weighs 1300g and the fork is 320g, with a built up weight of 14.8 pounds ready to ride.










Maybe I've gotten more risk averse as I've gotten older, but I'd rather ride a slightly heavier, more durable steel bike and keep my teeth and bones intact.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Scooper said:


> Maybe I've gotten more risk averse as I've gotten older, but I'd rather ride a slightly heavier, more durable steel bike and keep my teeth and bones intact.


Yep, or rather I like to think the weight is simply not as big an issue as the marketing department wants us to believe.

Late last year I spoke to the famed frame painter, Joe Bell, whose advice was that no one give up their SL-tubed Italian race bikes. In his opinion, the weight difference between olde steel frames and modern carbon frames is a joke when taking into consideration the ride, handling, steadiness and as he put it "the ability for my 1970s Colnago Super to steer me home in my sleep."


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

*And so...........................*

it is done.

Tracking number for frame arrived in my inbox this AM from the folks in Berkeley. Drivetrain/wheelset/cockpit are all on there way to the front door via Springfield Illinois USA, Eglinton Ireland and Lancashire UK, respectfully. The bearded fat guy in the red suit provided the Prologo saddle and Dura Ace pedals (although, coincidentally, Santa's generousity will coincide with a proportionate ding to my dear wife's January Mastercard statement - thanks Honey).

Local mechanic is anxious to get started. 

And so, I hope to answer the question I posed as the original post. With our midwest winter in full bloom and a storm looming in 4 or 5 days, it may be several weeks before I know the answer. 

Oh, and the sadist cousin of the bearded fat guy in the red suit registered us for the 2013 Triple Bypass (coincidentally, sadistic Santa's generousity will coincide with a proportionate ding to my dear son-in-law's January Visa statement - thanks Dan). I'm already reconsidering the standard rings & 12/25 cassette on order.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

billium v2.0 said:


> it is done.
> 
> Tracking number for frame arrived in my inbox this AM from the folks in Berkeley. Drivetrain/wheelset/cockpit are all on there way to the front door via Springfield Illinois USA, Eglinton Ireland and Lancashire UK, respectfully. The bearded fat guy in the red suit provided the Prologo saddle and Dura Ace pedals (although, coincidentally, Santa's generousity will coincide with a proportionate ding to my dear wife's January Mastercard statement - thanks Honey).
> 
> ...


You are a tease; the suspense is agonizing. 

Congratulations. :thumbsup:


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Scooper said:


> This.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I've gotten more risk averse as I've gotten older, but I'd rather ride a slightly heavier, more durable steel bike and keep my teeth and bones intact.


Then ask yourself why Cinelli mates a CF fork with the XCr.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> Then ask yourself why Cinelli mates a CF fork with the XCr.


Obviously, because of weight savings. I chose a steel fork for my 953 frame and am happy with that decision. YMMV.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> Then ask yourself why Cinelli mates a CF fork with the XCr.


..and a 1300 gram CF frame can be made far stronger than a 1300 gram SS frame.

That being said, I love the look of a hand-crafted steel or ti bike frame. I also dig the straight-bladed steel Colnago forks.

Different frame materials all have there place, and there's no need for anyone to justify their bike purchase. We all bought what we wanted to buy.
I grew up on steel...later had a couple of ti and al bikes, and now all my bikes are carbon fiber.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

turbogrover said:


> ..and a 1300 gram CF frame can be made far stronger than a 1300 gram SS frame.
> 
> Different frame materials all have their place, and there's no need for anyone to justify their bike purchase. We all bought what we wanted to buy.


I'm not trying to justify mine or anyone else's choices, but it's a fact that failure modes among different materials do vary significantly, and for some those differences influence material choices. That's all.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Scooper said:


> Obviously, because of weight savings. I chose a steel fork for my 953 frame and am happy with that decision. YMMV.


if weight savings was the priority, why even make a SS frame? The answer is because the fork is the weakest structural element of a frame, must susceptible to fatigue, and CF exceeds every other material in terms of desirable characteristics for a fork.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> ...CF exceeds every other material in terms of desirable characteristics for a fork.


Except for its propensity to fail suddenly and catastrophically.

Steel has a fatigue limit, below which an infinite number of stress cycles will not induce fatigue related failure.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> if weight savings was the priority, why even make a SS frame? The answer is because the fork is the weakest structural element of a frame, must susceptible to fatigue, and CF exceeds every other material in terms of desirable characteristics for a fork.


Cinelli and Columbus designed the XCR frame as more of a show piece for steel lovers who want the highest-quality longest lasting frame material available. Yes, it can be raced on, but I'm not certain that was the XCR's intent. I'm certain Cinelli/Columbus had no intent of placing the XCR in competition with Cinelli's carbon frames as far as weight goes. And why the carbon fork? Because that also is Columbus' highest end fork?

Cinelli's direction with the XCR is to showcase SS tubing as a high-end steel that is light and very strong but also very comfortable. Because Columbus owns Cinelli, and wants to demonstrate its ability with its highest end steel, it seems axiomatic that they would also use their highest end carbon fork with the frame. As is, Cinelli already has a full steel frame, which is the SuperCosa. 

A race bike was never Cinelli's intent with the XCR as much as was designating it a top-of-the-line model from the parent company Columbus, who decades has been known for high-end steel bicycle frames.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Scooper said:


> Except for its propensity to fail suddenly and catastrophically.
> 
> Steel has a fatigue limit, below which an infinite number of stress cycles will not induce fatigue related failure.


I think what stevesbike was trying to point out, was that CF was chosen as the structural material for what is the weakest part of a bike frame over all other materials.
Why not have a matching stainless fork? Why choose CF to make cranksets over aluminum or steel?
My experience with carbon fiber is that it is far stronger pound for pound than steel, ( when used as a structural frame member) and while it will definitely have a fatigue limit, it is far higher than that of steel. (I've seen plenty of CF coil springs) The most common misconception among cyclists, is that any one of the current frame materials is "best" or "strongest" or whatever. It's how the material is used.
I think the Cinelli is a gorgeous bike, (and I'd be happy to own one) but I wouldn't choose it for it's superior (insert here) over any other frame material. A lightweight, 2 lb. frame is obviously going to be more fragile, than the Cinelli frame, but a 2 lb. SS frame would be unrideable. A 3.5 lb. carbon fiber frame could be made mega-strong, but it wouldn't be a popular choice for the average consumer who would expect any CF frame to be superlight, or not worth consideration.

I think the OP came into this discussion hoping to hear that "it's okay if you only want to ride a mid-level bike, because I can't tell the difference between my Trek 1400 and my Pinarello Dogma.." but didn't like it when it became apparent that the higher end bikes were actually nicer to ride. There's nothing wrong with living within your means, and if that means you drive a Kia instead of a Porsche SUV, or choose a mid level bike instead of an "ultimate ride", then so be it. You'll still manage to enjoy it, I'm sure.


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## Foreigner (Sep 9, 2012)

I believe the OP started one of the most interesting thread I have seen so far. It has over the years been the big question for me: what is the right price point? Is the more expensive bike (or part) "worth it" or should I go for the cheaper one or even skip it? Where is the balance between price and quality?

Since I am neither rich nor poor I don´t have to buy the cheapest bikes or used bikes. But I don´t like to waste any of my hard earned money either and like to have money in the bank. I have two rather expensive and "very-expensive-to-me" bikes that I absoloutly love. I could squeeze out the funds for the top of the range bikes but that would hurt my bank account a bit too much.

Having said that, my best investments in my life have been my bikes and I don´t regret buying them for one moment. How do you put a price tag on a healthy mind and body and all the pleasure they give? I know that cheaper bikes would also do that, but still . . . 

One other way to justify these expensive bikes, is that if I had an old junk car it would probably cost as much (or almost) to purchase in the first place. Annual running cost of the car would be enormous compared to buying and maintaining an expensive bike. I find it quite amusing when people are shocked by the price of my bikes but would consider it to be normal to have an extra car for the household. Even if it were a rather expensive car that would cost many times more than the bikes and also despite the fact that we have no need for an extra car 

My point is that it is ok to have an expensive bike or bikes. It is ok if it hurts your bank account a bit. It might even be a good thing, then you look at the bike as an asset and it is valuable to you. It keeps me motivated to know that I have such luxurious and beautiful bikes that I absolutely love to ride. If you have the funds to get the top of the line then by all means do, just don´t get yourself into financial trouble. It probably would not make me a better/faster rider but I would absolutely get the most expensive one I wanted if I had a tad bigger bank account


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I think buying a bike is a lot like buying a car. The prices these days are not that much different. So first a budget needs to be set. I have learned that the best value for a car is to buy it slightly used. I bought a Camry with 50K miles for $12,000 for my daughter and recently bought a 2010 Sienna with 22K miles for $18K. A new Sienna sells for about $28K. Some people have to something that is brand new, no scratches, no signs of use with full warranty. That is fine if you want to pay for all of that. Right now you can get a slightly used Tarmac SL3 SWorks frameset off Ebay in the $800 range. I can't think of a better value for a bike than that. I paid $2800 for mine new. There is a lot fear about buying a used carbon frame with no warranty, but the fact is only a very small percentage of carbon frames ever have a failure and only a fraction of those are covered by a warranty. Often a carbon frame can br repaired for several hundred dollars. I will probably never buy a new bike again, just as I will never buy a new car again.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

OK here's the deal.

For some people with lesser disposable income, and especially with kids and a wife that watches the family bank account like a hawk, then you guys would have a HARD time buying a new expensive bike. In fact, you guys would have a hard time buying anything over a few hundred bucks without "asking her". In general, people with lesser disposable income do have to question the value of a high end toy. We get it. Understood.

Now, then there are those guys with a job and disposable income (they don't have to be wealthy), or the single guys with no family obligation.. or the older guys who has disposable income and have an appreciation for the finer things in life.. these are the sort of people who would be willing to spend... like spending on an expensive bikes that the guys in the 1st group would never understand.

It's OK, different people have different values. There is no need to think that a person is stupid for buying a $7000 stainless steel bike when a $3000 plastic bike from China is lighter (and note: I said lighter, and not necessarily faster). Carbon is stiffer pound-per-pound, we get it. But ya know what,.. most people who buy boutique $7000+ bikes don't race them crit's with a bunch of raging fools, do they? People who buy a Cinelli XCR don't buy them so they bring it to the local crits, do they. So stop talking down on the XCR or steel bike, stop repeating the phrase "carbon is stronger then steel pound per pound". WE GET IT.

IMO, people who buy high end boutique bikes are the sort of people who appreciate things like a fine dining. Sure, they could have just dine at McDonald for $3 and be full, but a $200-$400 dinner with a fine lady (like your wife) is priceless. If you had to ask why pay $400 for a dinner, then you don't understand. And I ain't even talking super expensive dining either which run in the thousands for a night, sky is the limite here. But you get my point.

Like asking billionaire why he needs to live in a mansion and drive super expensive yet heavy and clumbersome Bentleys and Rolls.. when a smaller 3-4 bedroom house and a BMW would suffice...

But a poster above point out one good point. A used Tarmac S-Works can fall in price like a rock after 2-3 years. A bike like the Cinelli XCR will NOT fall in price, mainly because people who own them tend to keep them. In the long term, the XCR is a better value then the S-Works, and both bikes cost about the same when bought new. I would jump at a chance to get a use XCR long before I'll even consider getting a Tarmac, Cervelo, Dogma, Evo, or any of the super duper bikes out there.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Foreigner, jnbrown, acl;

You all make valid points. My purchase won't affect my or my family's lifestyle. Two biggest issues for me to overcome were: 

Foolish spending: At 52, I've spent my adult life being practical. This purchase, no matter how I rationalize it, is an indugence on my part, period. As I respond to friends who poke fun at my frugal ways (they'd use other, less flattering words), "just because I can afford a $50.00 hamburger doesn't mean I'll ever buy one". In my mind, this bike is a $75.00 hamburger!

Being "That Guy": I'm a judgemental guy. Seeing middle aged men riding mega bikes/wheelsets/components, my first thought is ALWAYS the cycling version of the Corvette guy going through a middle age crisis. If the MAMIL turns out to have the legs/lungs/heart (or if the Vette guy actually appreciates cars not as an opposite sex magnet, but a car), I admonish myself. If I lived in Boulder or Sausalito, I'd scold myself often. In Iowa, the judging a book by it's cover thing works surprisingly well.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

billium v2.0 said:


> Foreigner, jnbrown, acl;
> 
> You all make valid points. My purchase won't affect my or my family's lifestyle. Two biggest issues for me to overcome were:
> 
> ...


Live a little. Enjoy your golden years. And will the typical joe or jane passing you in their pickkup/suv even know how much you spent on your bicycle?


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Mapei said:


> Live a little. Enjoy your golden years. And will the typical joe or jane passing you in their pickkup/suv even know how much you spent on your bicycle?


Jeez, Mapei, I would have appreciated your sentiment a heck of a lot more if you'd have left that "golden years" crack out. 

The problem, I know how much I spent on the bike.


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## LAW.S.T (May 15, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> OK here's the deal.
> 
> For some people with lesser disposable income, and especially with kids and a wife that watches the family bank account like a hawk, then you guys would have a HARD time buying a new expensive bike. In fact, you guys would have a hard time buying anything over a few hundred bucks without "asking her". In general, people with lesser disposable income do have to question the value of a high end toy. We get it. Understood.
> 
> ...


well thought out reply. thank you for sharing that


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## LAW.S.T (May 15, 2012)

billium v2.0 said:


> Foreigner, jnbrown, acl;
> 
> You all make valid points. My purchase won't affect my or my family's lifestyle. Two biggest issues for me to overcome were:
> 
> ...


buy what you want and ride it how you want. Don't give a toss about what other might think.
If you can't get over the cost of it or you are too concerned over the possible thoughts of other people, well..
there is always a flying pigeon.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Riffing a little on what LAW.S.T. wrote. 

The Truth

Buy what you want
Spend however much you want
Ride for whatever type of pleasure you get from it
Don't mistake materials for speed
Don't mistake price for speed
Don't mistake speed for the reason we cycle, spend the money or pick the materials

Do I hear an AMEN?


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Camilo said:


> Don't mistake speed for the reason we cycle.


Speed is definitely the reason I road bike. If I want to go for a mellow ride I go on trails. If I get on my road bike it's to see how fast I can go over a set course and how hard of a workout I can give my legs. I don't think I'm alone in that. I realize there are plenty of casual road cyclists but there are also plenty (even non-racers) who want to go as fast as they can. They're the ones looking for the stiffest, lightest, and most aero. Some people choose their bike based on emotion, others are choosing the tool that will help them do the best job.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Lelandjt said:


> Speed is definitely the reason I road bike. If I want to go for a mellow ride I go on trails. If I get on my road bike it's to see how fast I can go over a set course and how hard of a workout I can give my legs. I don't think I'm alone in that. I realize there are plenty of casual road cyclists but there are also plenty (even non-racers) who want to go as fast as they can. They're the ones looking for the stiffest, lightest, and most aero. Some people choose their bike based on emotion, others are choosing the tool that will help them do the best job.


OK sorry. I guess precision is needed in this thread! 

Don't mistake speed for the only reason some of us cycle, spend the money or pick the materials.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I have a Felt F1 Sprint that I bought in 2009. First, understand that the Sprint model was never sold as a complete bike.This bike has never ceased to amaze me and it's going into it's fourth racing season. Stiff is an understatement with this bike and it's like a rocket when I'm attacking in a crit. The ride isn't as supple as my Felt FA aluminum/ carbon rear bike, but the frame wasn't designed for and I didn't build it up with that in mind. I'm quite happy with the $7800 I spent on it. Would I do it again? Without a doubt! However, I've been told that the new F1s are stiffer than mine and the ride is supposed to be more compliant than the standard F1 from 2009/10. If what they are saying is true, sounds like a win-win situation.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> $200-$400 dinner with a fine lady (instead of your wife) is priceless


Had to fix that. 



> A bike like the Cinelli XCR will NOT fall in price, mainly because people who own them tend to keep them


The people buying them don't have to sell them on craigs/EBay to finance the next year's superbike. So you just don't see used ones for sale. Or used DeRosa ti by Doriano. 
There's guys on here with plenty of bikes in their basement they hardly ride anymore, I know I do. It's nice to take them for a spin and enjoy the memories of riding them on sunny summer days in faraway places.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Had to fix that.
> 
> The people buying them don't have to sell them on craigs/EBay to finance the next year's superbike. So you just don't see used ones for sale. Or used DeRosa ti by Doriano.
> There's guys on here with plenty of bikes in their basement they hardly ride anymore, I know I do. It's nice to take them for a spin and enjoy the memories of riding them on sunny summer days in faraway places.


Haha.. don't have a wife yet, but don't you go scarring me dude!

Guys who own XCR don't sell XCR. You right. They will sell their 1-yr old superbike to get next year's model that just comes out. Repeat cycle. God I don't know how many times I've seen ads for a superbike that read something like:

"mint, immaculate, never raced, never crashed, low miles. Selling to finance my next project"

This is in the Socal market.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

billium v2.0 said:


> Foreigner, jnbrown, acl;
> 
> You all make valid points. My purchase won't affect my or my family's lifestyle. Two biggest issues for me to overcome were:
> 
> ...


When I was in college (19-20 yr old at the time), piss poor and broken, I saw a man in his late 60s/early 70s pulling a brand spanking new convertible Corvette out of a parking lot at the speed of a snail. Being a young raging testosterone laced fool that I was, I cursed the man in my mind:

"What a waste for the car. What is this old man gonna do with a car like a Vette. This old man can die of a heart attack any time. What a fool."

I thought if I could have his car, then I'd be a chick magnet on my campus. Yeah baby.

Now that I'm 30 and thankfully a bit wiser, I now realize I was just an envious prick, and wish I hadn't thought about that old man the way I did. In fact, in thinking further, when I was angered at the old man back then, I was not really angered at him, I was really angered at myself (probably for no good reason), thank you testosterone.

Today own several boutique bikes, the cheapest one costing me close to $7000, and the most expensive one costing over $10,000. All my bikes combined can be used for a down payment for a medium 3-bedroom house in Socal market. I'll bet if that old man see me today, he would telling me I'm a fool too. He'd say at least his Corvette can go faster than all my bikes combined! I don't judge people like I used to no more.


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## Commendatore (Jun 3, 2012)

Spend as much as you want if you have some legs under you. I passed a man today on an R5 who may or may have not been about to walk up a moderate hill. There is a limit.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Commendatore said:


> Spend as much as you want if you have some legs under you. I passed a man today on an R5 who may or may have not been about to walk up a moderate hill. There is a limit.


Kinda silly but congratulations to the salesman who sold it. Better for all of us that he spent money on this instead of something else. The shop mankes money. The bike companies make money. It's another high end frame and set of parts that may show up on the used market some day.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Commendatore said:


> Spend as much as you want if you have some legs under you. I passed a man today on an R5 who may or may have not been about to walk up a moderate hill. There is a limit.


Nah, legs have nothing to do with it. Enjoyment and the bucks to fund your enjoyment are the only considerations. People who think "legs" have anything to do with it are the ones who can't think beyond speed and/or racing as the only reasons to buy nice equipment. Just lack of experience and insight I guess.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Camilo said:


> Nah, legs have nothing to do with it. Enjoyment and the bucks to fund your enjoyment are the only considerations. People who think "legs" have anything to do with it are the ones who can't think beyond speed and/or racing as the only reasons to buy nice equipment. Just lack of experience and insight I guess.



I think there's something more to "earning" a great bike beyond your bank account.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

So, she's here. 

Can't get her to builder until later this week. Mid 40's forecast this weekend. 

View attachment 273768
View attachment 273769
View attachment 273770


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Kinda ironic............

Final components show up today. Get build on the schedule.

I reply to a post here stating I believe you have to "earn" a great bike and that having little to do with the balance of bank account, yada, yada, yada.

And, a few minutes after that self-righteous post, the confirmation email from Team Evergreen Cycling shows up stating "*Congratulations! You are riding the 2013 Triple Bypass Ride".*


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

"Fragile. It must be Italian."
I approve of the components but you overpaid for a name with the wheels and frame. If you really like Campy wheels and Colnago frames than it is what it is.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

good thing most of older guys are past the point where we feel we need your respect for what we ride. The problem is that we probably felt the same way when we were younger and saw older riders on bikes that were nicer that what we had at the time. Funny thing is, I bet if you keep riding, you will out grow the attitude.

I am conflicted on the subject regarding high end bikes. I have several that were high end when I bought them. 3 years ago I bought a salsa that I built up for brevet riding. It certainly is not high end with the fenders, 32's, and 105 group. Thing is I really enjoy the bike. My bottom line is that I have no regrets on either end.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

billium v2.0 said:


> I have much more respect for the older guy riding the old, battle scarred frame at a higher speed than the same aged guy on a brand new frame (regardless of material/manufacturer) at a leasurely pace (assuming he's not on a recovery ride). Now, that same aged guy cruising along at 20 mph on his (fill in your version of fantasy bike), carrying on a conversation without strain, that would be my goal.
> 
> I think there's something more to "earning" a great bike beyond your bank account.


agree to disagree, with one more comment . I'm sure the guy who purchases and loves his high end bike isn't trying to earn your respect anyway. Actually what *I* respect is anyone who loves riding the bike and I also respect a person who chooses to buy a self-powered, expensive toy as opposed to the guy who buys the big shiney car, tv, snowmobile, etc. Do those folks have to "earn" those toys? How about the guy who loves to play fine guitars, but really doesn't play all that well? Is he unable to enjoy the action and tone without being a virtuoso?

Again, there's more to really enjoying a high end bike than "legs", speed, whatever.

PS I really want that bike whose parts you posted above! Really, really want it. Even though I'm old and slow, I bet I'd enjoy the living bejeebers out of it!


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

I've never (personally in real life) seen Super Record on a fast, young rider's bike. Dura-ace and Red yes, but Super Record is basically the official group of wealthy middle aged+ guys to be hung on Colnagos and Pinarellos. Not hating, just observing. A guy brought a Record EPS equipped Colnago in the other day and I was much more impressed with the parts than Dura-ace Di2. Much sleaker integration of the servo motors.


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## billium v2.0 (Oct 22, 2012)

Camilo said:


> agree to disagree, with one more comment . I'm sure the guy who purchases and loves his high end bike isn't trying to earn your respect anyway. Actually what I respect is anyone who loves riding the bike and I also respect a person who chooses to buy a self-powered, expensive toy as opposed to the guy who buys the big shiney car, tv, snowmobile, etc. Do those folks have to "earn" those toys? How about the guy who loves to play fine guitars, but really doesn't play all that well? Is he unable to enjoy the action and tone without being a virtuoso?
> 
> Again, there's more to really enjoying a high end bike than "legs", speed, whatever.
> 
> PS I really want that bike whose parts you posted above! Really, really want it. Even though I'm old and slow, I bet I'd enjoy the living bejeebers out of it!



Funny your comment about the car. I've always wanted a particular model/brand of sports car. Follow enthusiasts of the model on their websites, buy the magazines, read about the modifications, track days, etc. But I'm just not that good of driver. I'd have to take some (ie. a lot) of driving courses, buy one of their lesser models to learn the handling characteristics of the brand, spend time at autocrosses learning from other owners, ultimately work my way up in driving skills to the model I've been smitten with for decades. Does that count as "earning"?


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm not judgmental at all. I'm the guy who loves seeing anyone spend anything on bike stuff cuz I make a living off the industry and I just genuinely appreciate other's passion for the sport and the equipement. I'm just noting an observation that's not that surprising when you think about it. After all, Dura-ace and Red are cheaper in the first place, more common on the used market, and for a rider who sees his bike more as a disposable tool it would be hard to justify the extra expense of Campy. Maybe it just takes a few more decades to gain an appreciation for Campy's advantages, and the funds to purchase it.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Now that I'm 30 and thankfully a bit wiser, I now realize I was just an envious prick, and wish I hadn't thought about that old man the way I did. In fact, in thinking further, when I was angered at the old man back then, I was not really angered at him, I was really angered at myself (probably for no good reason), thank you testosterone.
> 
> Today own several boutique bikes, the cheapest one costing me close to $7000, and the most expensive one costing over $10,000. All my bikes combined can be used for a down payment for a medium 3-bedroom house in Socal market. I'll bet if that old man see me today, he would telling me I'm a fool too. He'd say at least his Corvette can go faster than all my bikes combined! I don't judge people like I used to no more.


Good posts...and honest too. It's sad that so many people can't be objective enough and stop judging others.


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## djrbikes (Feb 24, 2013)

I've been riding a Madone 5.2 for many years that I upgraded with carbon Dura Ace wheels and a carbon crank. I didn't imagine that there would be that big a difference if I went up a level. Recently I bought a Dogma2 with Campy EPS and it is a significant difference. The new bike feels faster, smoother and more responsive. All additional effort goes directly to the road. The bike somehow combines pure performance with comfort and smoothness. The weather has been too crappy to take it out for a longer ride. That will be a test. I'm thrilled I did it and have no regrets spending the dough. I think not only is it an upgrade in quality based on the overall package it is also a matter of advance in technology and state of the art since the shark fin Madone came out.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I love people that need the latest and greatest. It allows for great bikes to become available on the secondary market in price ranges I can tolerate. I just found my boss a 2008 S-Works Roubaix that was built in 2010. Cost was $1,850. My 2006 Time VXS was less than $2k to build in 2011. A bike is only new until you throw your leg over it for the first time. After that it's used. Somehow I find myself less inclinded to want to upgrade an older pro level bike than if I were to spend the same money on a new middle of the road 105 equipped ride.


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## ProBikeSupply_Kyle (Oct 16, 2012)

There are several great options out there! The new look 675, Time Fluidity, BMC GF01, and the Deda RAN. All the above are designed to be very comfortable but still provide the rider the feeling of being able to sprint it out with your riding buddies! All the above come as frame only options and range are about the 3000.00 price point. 
One of the best bikes I've seen for the money is the time fluidity, the frame is hand made and time is the only company currently using Vextran in all of their models. Vextran is currently used in airplanes to dampen the vibration. I've ridden one for quite some time and it's very responsive even in a sprint and I weigh in at 190lbs.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Anyone care to guess what DuraAce or Record would cost if it was only produced in quantities for ProTour teams?

Anyone can ride anything...they're just bikes. If someone is doing something they enjoy and not hurting anyone else, more power to them.
Someone who gets upset about someone else's bicycle needs a real problem to worry about.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Anyone care to guess what DuraAce or Record would cost if it was only produced in quantities for ProTour teams?


I don't know what you're getting at but if it was only available to teams it wouldn't be for sale so it wouldn't have a price, like "factory works" motocross parts. They're handmade one-offs with countless hours of testing behind them so they cost many thousands of $$$ but since they aren't sold no exact value is assigned to them.
So to answer your question: priceless.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I got a brand new 2009 C-50 full campagnolo record and Eurus wheels for half price.

It was a shop that went broke and was foreclosed and its assets were sold probably at cost.

Sad for the shop, I regret that.

I did dress it later with Super Record and Boras/Hyperons.

The frame is beautiful and I am fully in love.

Would I had paid the retail price for it? I am not so sure, but I have to say, I think it would be worth it.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Crazy thread. When I see another person on a bike I would not judge them for what they ride. If everyone's post showed how old they are it would be interesting to see how young the "it's a waste of money, you are not a racer" people are and how old the "so it's a 7k bike big deal, let's all ride and do our own thing"are. I'm 43. Biking has changed my life from a health perspective. I enjoy it and getting the best bike I could find was a reward of sorts to myself. I also owned a couple of expensive watches that I got rid of so I didn't have to let my wife see all that money leave the bank without other money coming in.
I rode a few and bought the one I liked. I was going to get a 6k cervelo and (un)wisely demo'd a dogma with EPS and Zipp 303s. It feels and looks better than i thought any bike ever could. I don't regret it for a second. I love the bike and it makes me want to ride more. I would think all those that worry/ judge everyone else for what they ride are in a very small minority. For the most part you'd have to be pretty into biking to know a nice bike from a cheap one anyway. I can't tell a 8k trek from a 800 trek for the most part. Also if I raced crits I think I'd have a few beat up CAAD 10s with different wheel sets ready to go when I wrecked one.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

The Saturday Morning Ride in my area has "A" and "B" groups. "A" is almost all men. It's a no drop hammerfest, with screaming, snarling racers. The "B" group has men and women, mixed abilities and ages. It regroups three times. 

There are no Colnagos on the "A" ride. No steel-frame classics. But there are cutting edge race bikes and guys on their rain bikes. The "B" group is a mixed bag, with some new bikes, some steel frames, and some $10,000 works of art. The "B" ride has more guys on carbon clinchers. Some of the "A" riders save their tubulars for race day. 

Both groups have coffee at the same cafe after the ride.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Lelandjt said:


> I don't know what you're getting at


Therein lies the rub.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

I just saw a guy watching TV with glasses! I had to laugh.
Only people with really excellent vision should be allowed to buy HDTVs with 1920x1080.
Otherwise you're just a poser. Especially the guys that wear "Sony" or "Samsung" kit.


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## redcolnago (Jul 12, 2015)

*Good for you*

Good for you - high-end Italian steel craftsmanship vs boring all-black (or grey--even worse) plastic from Taiwan. 

My friends have boring carbon/plastic Giants with even more boring shimano 105. If I hadn't met their wives already I would have guessed that they were boring plastic blow-up dolls from Taiwan. 

At one lunch-stop a teenage kid came up and said, "Man, I love your bike. It looks super-cool!" One of my friends with his brand new (that day) Giant plastic bike beside mine said, "Thanks", but the kid said, "No, not your bike. I don't like your bike; I like the cool red bike"; which was my 1978 red Super Record Pinarello. Even my friend had to laugh. 

ps-their boring plastic bikes haven't made my friends any faster just more boring. 




velodog said:


> As far as high end frames/bikes being worth it, I'd hafe ta say Yes and No.
> 
> I have a high end steel frame which I've had for about 29yrs and about 7yrs ago I had the opportunity to get a reasonably high end carbon bike. After riding the carbon bike for a little better than three yrs I went back to the steel bike, and am waiting on the arrival of a new steel frame to replace the carbon one.
> 
> ...


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

redcolnago said:


> Good for you - high-end Italian steel craftsmanship vs boring all-black (or grey--even worse) plastic from Taiwan.
> 
> My friends have boring carbon/plastic Giants with even more boring shimano 105. If I hadn't met their wives already I would have guessed that they were boring plastic blow-up dolls from Taiwan.
> 
> ...


Their choice of friends probably isn't helping much either.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

redcolnago said:


> My friends have boring carbon/plastic Giants with even more boring shimano 105. If I hadn't met their wives already I would have guessed that they were *boring* plastic blow-up dolls from Taiwan.
> 
> *At one lunch-stop* a teenage kid came up and said, "Man, I love your bike. It looks super-cool!" One of my friends with his brand new (that day) Giant plastic bike beside mine said, "Thanks", but the kid said, "No, not your bike. I don't like your bike; I like the cool red bike"; which was my 1978 red Super Record Pinarello. Even my friend had to laugh.
> 
> ps-their boring plastic bikes *haven't made my friends any faster* just more boring.


Two things; (1)if you're not boring the blow up plastic doll you aren't using it correctly!
(2) Lunch break and riding fast? That might be why you all aren't riding fast. Challenge them to a race at the end of summer, $50 entry pool to be donated to the winners' favorite charity. Then see how the technologies compare. Form over function or vice versa?


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## redcolnago (Jul 12, 2015)

I like the humour re the doll. Lunch break is a good idea when you're riding 150 km or so at a good speed in the heat. I know a lot of guys just do a quicky 40 km drafting their friends in a big pack while staring at their cyclocomputer. If you get off the bike you just ride faster when you get back on. Ps-I am always waiting for my friends and they draft me; especially into strong winds so I'm not so sure how accurate it is to call some of these new bikes aero-lol. Ps- one of them was bugging me to get a cyclocomputer so I would ride at a slower pace so he could draft me easier-lol. I gave him the old school answer, "Just ride f. faster!" 

I pass all these young guys on their carbon bikes-you should see their faces when they see my white beard -lol. If I was at all concerned my vintage bikes were slower I would just train harder to be faster not move to boring carbon (it does motivate me to train all winter actually). 

There's just one guy on a carbon tri/time trial bike that always appears on a very windy day that I have a hard time keeping pace with into a strong wind because he's so low and aero. Maybe, I need an old school lowpro bike to pass him into the wind-lol.





kiwisimon said:


> Two things; (1)if you're not boring the blow up plastic doll you aren't using it correctly!
> (2) Lunch break and riding fast? That might be why you all aren't riding fast. Challenge them to a race at the end of summer, $50 entry pool to be donated to the winners' favorite charity. Then see how the technologies compare. Form over function or vice versa?


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

ewitz said:


> Some are keepers that you won't part with (Time VXRS, Look 585) some are great tools that hold no romantic attachment (S-Works Venge, Pinarello Dogma Prince and Dogma)


Well said. I don't miss my C59 but I'm never selling my plasma colored Time NXS.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

ProBikeSupply_Kyle said:


> One of the best bikes I've seen for the money is the time fluidity, the frame is hand made and time is the only company currently using Vextran. .


Time IMO make one of the best products out there. Only Giant (other than Time) weave their own carbon for 100% quality control. Cutting a Time fork with Vectan was an eye opener, as it was extremely hard to cut. The RTM process is also huge in aerospace. Additionally you get a lifetime warranty. A crappy Chinese made Pinarello (or equivalent) possess none of these qualities.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> Time IMO make one of the best products out there. Only Giant (other than Time) weave their own carbon for 100% quality control. Cutting a Time fork with Vectan was an eye opener, as it was extremely hard to cut. The RTM process is also huge in aerospace. Additionally you get a lifetime warranty. A crappy Chinese made Pinarello (or equivalent) possess none of these qualities.


the BMC Impec is weaved in house, pretty impressive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8rUbKwCl3A

Time frames are made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZkpWc0MJY

let's see Enve do that!


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

some people buy a new bike every few years. i keep my bikes far longer and in that context not sure i feel my c-59 costs more than say a canondale or cervelo that gets replaced after three seasons. i know there are guys out there riding 105 equipped bianchis enjoying them and riding faster and harder than i am on my c59. that said i feel more productive on my c59 than i do on my trek 5200, the geometry works and the bike feels good on the climbs and the straights. its possible i might have said the same thing riding a specialized but i never found out. I also liked the idea of a hand-built italian bike and i'm in my 50's so felt it was now or never for that kind of bike. sure i could buy a bike ten years from now, but i won't be the same kind of rider then most likely.


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## kg1 (Apr 17, 2002)

*Isn't it all marketing?*

Does anyone here work in marketing? I used to work with someone who had a saying that "Cost is cost, but price is policy." Weather it's wine, watches, cameras, stereos or whatever, I think that the marketers understand that we have real trouble assigning value to things. Is $5,000 too much to pay for a bike? That's a tough question to answer, but the marketers try to make it a little easier for us by showing us an $8,000 version of the bike. The $8,000 version makes the $5,000 version look reasonable in comparison. I have no doubt there is a clever name for this sort of pricing scheme, I just don't know what it is and couldn't find it in my limited Google search. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy the high-end version -- do that if it makes you happy, but I do think it makes sense to understand why the companies are putting those versions in front of us, priced as they are, and I don't think it has much if anything to do with cost.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

kg1 said:


> Does anyone here work in marketing? I used to work with someone who had a saying that "Cost is cost, but price is policy." Weather it's wine, watches, cameras, stereos or whatever, I think that the marketers understand that we have real trouble assigning value to things. Is $5,000 too much to pay for a bike? That's a tough question to answer, but the marketers try to make it a little easier for us by showing us an $8,000 version of the bike. The $8,000 version makes the $5,000 version look reasonable in comparison. I have no doubt there is a clever name for this sort of pricing scheme, I just don't know what it is and couldn't find it in my limited Google search. I'm not saying you shouldn't buy the high-end version -- do that if it makes you happy, but I do think it makes sense to understand why the companies are putting those versions in front of us, priced as they are, and I don't think it has much if anything to do with cost.


A lot of one man shops sell bikes at or above the prices you are talking about. They definitely don't have marketing departments and in many cases don't know the first thing about marketing.
It most certainly does have to do with cost. Off course they are out to make a profit but they most certainly are not selling a ti or xcr bike for $8000 for purposes of making one out of plumbing supply pipes look more attractive in relation.

It's not always a conspiracy. Sometimes things cost more because they cost more.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> A lot of one man shops sell bikes at or above the prices you are talking about. They definitely don't have marketing departments and in many cases don't know the first thing about marketing.
> It most certainly does have to do with cost. Off course they are out to make a profit but they most certainly are not selling a ti or xcr bike for $8000 for purposes of making one out of plumbing supply pipes look more attractive in relation.
> 
> It's not always a conspiracy. Sometimes things cost more because they cost more.


Yes, "sometimes things cost more because they cost more" but you're comparing a one man shop, handcrafting a product for an individual, to a large scale manufacturer selling product to the masses. 

Apples to oranges.


But, even saying that, some one man shops price their product at an inflated mark up for the simple reason of name recognition.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

velodog said:


> Yes, "sometimes things cost more because they cost more" but you're comparing a one man shop, handcrafting a product for an individual, to a large scale manufacturer selling product to the masses.
> 
> Apples to oranges.
> 
> ...


I'm not comparing anything to anything. I'm responding directly to a claim about marketing departments, that didn't specify size of bike company. by pointing out many bike makers don't even have them and their costs are indeed higher for their higher prices bikes not that they are to make lower priced ones look better like they claim was.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

velodog said:


> Yes, "sometimes things cost more because they cost more" but you're comparing a one man shop, handcrafting a product for an individual, to a large scale manufacturer selling product to the masses.
> 
> Apples to oranges.
> 
> ...


so true


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> A lot of one man shops sell bikes at or above the prices you are talking about. They definitely don't have marketing departments and in many cases don't know the first thing about marketing.
> It most certainly does have to do with cost. Off course they are out to make a profit but they most certainly are not selling a ti or xcr bike for $8000 for purposes of making one out of plumbing supply pipes look more attractive in relation.
> 
> It's not always a conspiracy. Sometimes things cost more because they cost more.


I like supporting the small producer especially if they make a good product. One of the things that attracted me to Firefly. I also consider Colnago a small player when compared to Trek or Specialized but in the case of Colnago it isn't as clear. The Cervelos, Giants, Treks have the advantage of economies of scale.


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## kg1 (Apr 17, 2002)

*It's the marketing department*



Jay Strongbow said:


> A lot of one man shops sell bikes at or above the prices you are talking about. They definitely don't have marketing departments and in many cases don't know the first thing about marketing.
> It most certainly does have to do with cost. Off course they are out to make a profit but they most certainly are not selling a ti or xcr bike for $8000 for purposes of making one out of plumbing supply pipes look more attractive in relation.
> 
> It's not always a conspiracy. Sometimes things cost more because they cost more.


This thread is about situations like the Trek Madone 9.9 ($12k) versus the 9.2 ($6k) -- at least that's how it started. That's the situation I was trying to explain. I'm pretty sure Trek does have a marketing department. I understand the idea of one-man shops and buying a bike that's also a piece of art. That's a different thing.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

kg1 said:


> This thread is about situations like the Trek Madone 9.9 ($12k) versus the 9.2 ($6k) -- at least that's how it started. That's the situation I was trying to explain. I'm pretty sure Trek does have a marketing department. I understand the idea of one-man shops and buying a bike that's also a piece of art. That's a different thing.


Alright. Fair enough. Guess I responded to what I though was a general catch all comment but you weren't talking about the exception I pointed out. I definitely agree the Treks of the world price according to many things other than costs.


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