# titanum spokes or stainless steel spokes? what to choose or avoid and why?



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

greetings all

I am looking into new aluminium road wheels (most likely custom built) and need to make some decisions regarding which kinds of spokes to use.

Should I get Titanium spokes (which brand?) or Stainless Steel (which?).
Is there anything else these days (I have not kept up with wheel tech).

I am not heavy, 5 feet 9 inches tall, weight ~155-160lbs (70-72kg). 
I want long wheel life and reliability and minimum maintenance and low risk of corrosion. 
I ride for fitness, long 3-4 hour rides several times per week, but no racing, in all kids of weather, flat and hilly roads. 
At present I ride Mavic OpenPro, 32-spokes F/R, double butted, round DT Swiss spokes, brass nipples.

My preference is for 28-32 spokes per wheel.

Sapim CX-Rays? DT Swiss? Titanium of some sort? Bladed or round?

thanks!


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

I would never ever ever recommend a titanium spoke. Steel is real. 

Now regarding round or bladed, you're going to get all different answers. Personally I prefer to build on Cxrays simply because wind up is a non issue (with the right spoke holder of course). However there will be no real world difference between Cxrays and a double butted equivalent.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

thanks! you were one of many who said "no" to titanium spokes and yet there is nobody that explained "why not". 
I ride titanium road frame and very happy with it, so why not titanium spokes? 
Just curious. 
Is it a money matter or does stainless steel spoke actually works better than titanium and why so?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

acid_rider said:


> thanks! you were one of many who said "no" to titanium spokes and yet there is nobody that explained "why not".
> I ride titanium road frame and very happy with it, so why not titanium spokes?
> Just curious.
> Is it a money matter or does stainless steel spoke actually works better than titanium and why so?


Consider the dimensions of the objects you're comparing. Steel vs titanium won't show an appreciable difference in strength or weight. Why pay more for a difference you won't notice?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

While Titanium may be a metal that has an impressive weight to strength ratio it also is one that can be deflected (ie bent or twisted) relatively easily. This is why it's rarely used in structural applications where rigidity is needed. 

If you rode your ti frame back to back with a steel equivalent, the steel would be noticeably stiffer. This feel is only exacerbated when it's applied to spokes.

The only real upside to ti spokes (aside from weight) is that they would be significantly less prone to corrosion than steel.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Ti spokes have been used in weight weenie applications with the purpose of saving a few grams. They were found to be particularly susceptible to thread galling when used with aluminum nipples so brass nipples are recommended to moderate galling if ti spokes are used.
Interestingly enough, the combined weight of ti spokes-brass nipples is awfully close to the weight of steel spokes-aluminum nipples which makes the use of ti spokes a waste of money if its done for weight savings.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

The weight saving of Ti is small and they are difficult to build with alloy nipples.

The Sapim CX-Ray spokes are about the best you can buy, but if you really want to go lightweight Sapim has a Super spoke.

Super Spokes | Sapim

It's very light, but very expensive.

For value I choose the CX-Ray spokes. And they are better than there equal weight counterpart (Sapim laser) in more than one way:

1. Bladed so they are more aero and can easily be held with a bladed spoke holder to eliminate wind up.

2. They have a much longer fatigue life than the laser and other round butted spokes. You can search for the info on line.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I would never ever ever recommend a titanium spoke. Steel is real.
> 
> Now regarding round or bladed, you're going to get all different answers. Personally I prefer to build on Cxrays simply because wind up is a non issue (with the right spoke holder of course). However there will be no real world difference between Cxrays and a double butted equivalent.


Why do you prefer CX-Rays over DT Aerolites? My shops do most of their ordering from QBP so Aerolites are easy to get but at $2.40 per spoke wholesale they're expensive. Are CX-Rays significantly cheaper? There's a very similar Pillar spoke that I've been wanting to get my hands on because they are like $.70 per spoke but there's no US distribution.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

thanks everyone! Good feedback, great to learn! 

one more question - assuming I wanted a *round, not bladed,* stainless steel spoke, what is the top 2-3 choices I have?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

acid_rider said:


> assuming I wanted a *round, not bladed,* stainless steel spoke, what is the top 2-3 choices I have?


Top three choices, all too close to worry about "what's best" -

Sapim. DT. Wheelsmith.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

thanks, which but there are quite a few *models* in each.
Which specific Sapim, DT, Wheelsmith models in a 'round spec' to pick for best longevity/performance compromise ?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

acid_rider said:


> thanks, which but there are quite a few *models* in each.
> Which specific Sapim, DT, Wheelsmith models in a 'round spec' to pick for best longevity/performance compromise ?


Sapim "Race", DT "Competition" and the 2.0/1.7/2.0 gauge of Wheelsmith (can't remember the name).


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Sapim "Race", DT "Competition" and the 2.0/1.7/2.0 gauge of Wheelsmith (can't remember the name).


thank you very much!!


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

Bladed DT Aerolite, Sapim CX-ray, and Pillar X-TRA 1420 spokes will save 50g per wheel over 14/15 gauge double butted spokes and that's besides the aero advantage and eliminating wind-up. I highly recommend using one of those spokes unless price is the highest priority of your build. I strongly discourage using a round spoke thinner than 14/15 gauge double butted. They wind up when truing, I'm convinced they result in an overly flexy wheel, and a customer recently kept breaking his thin spokes (I think DT Revolutions?) near their 15 gauge nipple ends.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

acid_rider said:


> I ride titanium road frame and very happy with it, so why not titanium spokes?


Because titanium and steel have very different mechanical properties.

A titanium frame can be made to ride just like a steel frame. The tubing diameters, wall thicknesses and tube shapes can all be adjusted. A spoke is just a piece of wire. 

I had a pair of wheels made with Marwi Ti Dye spokes back in the 1990s. Looked awesome but constantly went out of true because the spokes were so flexy. I didn't know titanium spokes were still available.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

acid_rider said:


> thanks! you were one of many who said "no" to titanium spokes and yet there is nobody that explained "why not".
> I ride titanium road frame and very happy with it, so why not titanium spokes?


Because titanium is about half the stiffness of steel and by the time you increase diameter to compensate you have the same weight and 41% more cross-sectional area + drag.

IOW, a 14 gauge (2.0mm round) titanium spoke isn't quite as stiff as a 14/17 gauge steel spoke (1.5mm round in the center, or 2.2 x 0.9mm in aero form).



> Is it a money matter or does stainless steel spoke actually works better than titanium and why so?


The performance penalty should be miniscule, comparable to switching from a bladed to round 17 gauge spoke which costs you less than 1 Watt at 30 MPH or 3 seconds on a 40k time trial.

If you want rainbow colored titanium spokes because they look cool go for it.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> Bladed DT Aerolite, Sapim CX-ray, and Pillar X-TRA 1420 spokes will save 50g per wheel over 14/15 gauge double butted spokes


Just like DT Revolutions or Sapim Lasers although you'll be spending a few dollars more per spoke without a wholesale discount.



> and that's besides the aero advantage


Less than 1 Watt in a straight line at 30 MPH, perhaps 2 at some yaw angles which is 3-6 seconds on a 40k time trial (November 38mm carbon rims, 20 spokes laced radially, CX-Ray and laser spokes). 

November Bicycles: Race smart. - November Bicycles Blog - Aerodynamic Drag of Lasers vs*CX-Rays



> and eliminating wind-up.


Properly lubricated (I like zinc anti-seize applied with an acid brush with half the bristle length chopped off) spoke threads limit wind-up.

When you observe windup via tape flags on the spoke spoke (front) or two (rear with different drive and non-drive side tensions) following the valve stem or sharpie dot on each spoke it's trivial to compensate for wind-up.



> They wind up when truing, I'm convinced they result in an overly flexy wheel,


They produce the same stiffness as an equal number of aero spokes with the same alloy and cross-sectional area because work hardening has essentially no effect on stiffness within the elastic range of a metal's stress/strain curve where spokes operate. Wheels built with Sapim Lasers have identical stiffness as those built with CX-Rays and those using Revolutions are as stiff as those built with Aerolites.



> and a customer recently kept breaking his thin spokes (I think DT Revolutions?) near their 15 gauge nipple ends.


While DT Revolutions are available in 15-17 (1.8/1.5mm) gauge, 14-17 (2.0/1.5mm) are a lot more popular. I'd bet on some other sort of 15/16 gauge (1.8/1.6mm) round spokes.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

mtbpete said:


> 2. They have a much longer fatigue life than the laser and other round butted spokes. You can search for the info on line.


In the lab where you create higher magnitude stress cycles than wheels see in use and in marketing materials. In practice it doesn't matter.

Properly stress-relieved high quality stainless steel spokes of all sorts are good for hundreds of thousands of miles as long as you don't have problems with properly supporting the elbows (over-sized spoked holes and long elbows have been made to speed automated wheel building) or nipples pivoting to match the spoke angle.

Jobst Brandt has 300,000 miles on one set. He's not a small guy, and IIRC they're 15/16 gauge. 

Increasing spoke life to the million mile mark isn't going to make a difference for most cyclists. When you build your own wheels you re-use spokes after wearing out your brake tracks or crashing a wheel to save time (de-tension, tape the new rim to the old in three places, lubricate sockets, and move spokes over one at a time taking the opportunity to re-lubricate threads) and money. When some one does that professionally they tend not to risk their reputation on what your spokes went through when you got them and it doesn't matter.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

acid_rider said:


> thanks, which but there are quite a few *models* in each.
> Which specific Sapim, DT, Wheelsmith models in a 'round spec' to pick for best longevity/performance compromise ?


DT Revolution, Sapim Laser.

Thinner spokes stretch more at a given tension which means the wheel can take a bigger hit before the spokes go slack at which point the rim becomes unsupported horizontally, shift off-center, and then collapse as the rim springs back.


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