# Seat height confusion



## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Although I'm no noob to biking I was never to specific about seat height in the trails, I more or less varied it depending on where I rode. I'm quickly finding that very small imperfections on my road bike setup can be very annoying esecially as my rides get longer.

My hamstrings were really starting to feel strained from what i believe is improper seat placement, so I began looking into some "proper" bike fitting info. I've read about two different ways to find your correct seat height; I already knew about one which was put your heal on the pedal at 6 o'clock with your knee locked, and the other was to measure your inseam and multiply by .887. 

I measured my inseam to 79.5cm (kept it metric for simplicity), which equates to about 69.5cm seat height. Although this measurement was far too low so i compromised at 71cm for my ride today. My first rides were apparently with a 75cm seat height which probably explains the strained muscles in the back of my leg. I also used the method of having my knee locked and heel on the pedal at 6 o'clock with no hip-dip.

I set my forward/aft seat position which was easy enough by hanging a plum bob over my knee with 9 o'clock pedal position to line the bob up with the pedal axle.

Without really being able to explain why, it still just doesnt feel correct even with all said adjustments. It seems like while making these changes I've seen a slight decrease in power due to the higher seat height, but if it were set any higher I would begin to experience leg pain. Conversely, a lower seat height has already eluded to less power. 

I'm hoping to find some suggestions on what i could do to eleviate the seat height issues, so any ideas are welcomed. Thanks


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I think you're over-thinking this. Correct saddle height should give a thirty degree bend in the leg when the foot is correctly placed on the pedal**.

A physiotherapist could measure this with a goniometer. Or you could to it yourself - have a photo taken of your leg & foot in the correct position. Get it on the computer screen and measure the angle with a protractor.

I set my saddle height with the "heel on the pedal" method (it's a heel, not a "heal" BTW) and my leg angle has been measured at 30 degrees by my physiotherapist.

**Hips level, pedal at 6 o'clock, ball of foot on pedal, foot level.


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## Mandeville (Oct 18, 2014)

There is incredible amount of different fit procedures or methods. None of them is right for all riders. None. Period. The same goes for determining the correct seat hight. No system or method works for everyone. None. Not even close. 

There are like two fit goal concepts IMO. One is get a fit that actually results in the optimal setup for YOU. The second is get a setup that is not optimal but acceptable where you can use it without problems--you just won't get an optimal result which simply put translates into power, comfort, and safety. (There can be a bit of trade off between the three as opposed to having all three of them.)

Even if you get an optimal or adequate fit your body will change as you ride and it what at a certain point is time actually is a perfect fit will change as your body does and you will need to make some type of adjustment to be optimal.

You need to be adjust everything for your entire body on one hand and everything for a fit for your lower body starting with the seat on down. 

Changes in a fit that are even proper or correct after you are used to one fit for some time often will cause you problems with soreness and other issues as your body adjusts to the new fit and the new forces placed upon it by the different fit whether it is a better or not as good as fit from which you are changing from. 

A most common change that temporarily can cause discomfort is a change in the seat position, especially height. 

Anyone that claims there is one system or there are absolutes are right in only area and that is there are no absolutes in right systems or concepts of fits that fits all. 

Good luck. 

If you want to prioritize areas of fit to determine that aside from a perfect all around fit what's the single most important fit think of just one word: saddle placement both in height and front/aft position. IMO its the closest thing to the foundation of the all around fit.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Check for a leg length discrepancy. You'll almost never feel comfortable when you're setting your height for one leg yet the other one is "looking" for something else.

My telltale sign the seat is too high or low is, I usually sit on the widest part of the saddle. If I'm trying to push my butt off the rear of the saddle, or I move forward toward the narrower part of the saddle, then I need to adjust the height. I can feel that difference either way with only 3mm changes in height so the sweet spot for me is pretty obvious and in a narrowly defined range.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

First thought...How did you set your cleats?

.887 is a good starting point and a touch low for me but, it means nothing w/o proper fore/aft position in relation to the BB though. Some find a sweet spot more fwd. Some a bit aft. Definitely a balance point if your saddle tilt is ok.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Set your seat height, then KOS, then readjust seat height. Then ride a while, you will get used to it. 
Also, if you pedal heel up (which does not work for me), you can raise it a bit. When my IT band starts up, I know I need to get my heel back down to flat technique.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

Don't forget that since the seat tube is at an angle, as you move the saddle up or down, it also moves back or forward.

For some people, this is not important at all. For others, like me, it's crucial. I can't set saddle fore/aft then set height and call it good. I have to set both together.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Mandeville said:


> There is incredible amount of different fit procedures or methods. None of them is right for all riders. None. Period. The same goes for determining the correct seat hight. No system or method works for everyone. None. Not even close.
> 
> There are like two fit goal concepts IMO. One is get a fit that actually results in the optimal setup for YOU. The second is get a setup that is not optimal but acceptable where you can use it without problems--*you just won't get an optimal result which simply put translates into power, comfort, and safety. (There can be a bit of trade off between the three as opposed to having all three of them.)*


I'm thinking this is most of my problem. Along with all of the different methods to find your seat height that some people seem very adamant about. Its just hard for me to accept the issues I'm feeling when I have never had them with multiple seat height setting on my mtb. Part of the issue with the "heel on the pedal" method is I'm still using mtb shoes which have a pretty tall stack height.




Peter P. said:


> Check for a leg length discrepancy. You'll almost never feel comfortable when you're setting your height for one leg yet the other one is "looking" for something else.





Peter P. said:


> My telltale sign the seat is too high or low is, I usually sit on the widest part of the saddle. If I'm trying to push my butt off the rear of the saddle, or I move forward toward the narrower part of the saddle, then I need to adjust the height. I can feel that difference either way with only 3mm changes in height so the sweet spot for me is pretty obvious and in a narrowly defined range.




I didn't think about a leg discrepancy; I'll check that out when I get a chance. How you move on the saddle while riding is a great onservation! I definitely kept trying to move back on the seat during yesterday's ride. So I should try 3mm higher for the next ride.




woodys737 said:


> First thought...How did you set your cleats?





woodys737 said:


> .887 is a good starting point and a touch low for me but, it means nothing w/o proper fore/aft position in relation to the BB though. Some find a sweet spot more fwd. Some a bit aft. Definitely a balance point if your saddle tilt is ok.




Cleats are setup about 5mm behind the ball of my foot. They're Crank Bros. with tons of float so no adjustment needed for left/right twist of the foot. I did move my seat slightly forward for yesterdays ride along with it being shorter.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

A couple of thoughts...

As Mandeville points out, fit issues can be complex, and there are almost always compromises made. But as long as those compromises are within a range acceptable to your anatomy, all will be well with a "near optimal" fit. How to best get you there is the question. 

That said, I'll offer that 1) MTB'ing isn't road riding, so proceed accordingly, and 2) because of #1, acclimation (to road riding) may be playing a role here.. along with overuse (since you mentioned hamstring discomfort). 

Not being a fan of the "do it yourself" method of fit, assuming you have confidence in the fitter, I suggest bringing your bike back to your LBS, discussing the areas of discomfort and your methods of getting comfortable on the bike (sliding back, for one), see what they suggest and go from there.

Because dialing in fit may take more than one try, you may find that (as you acclimate to a road riding position) tweaks to fit will be necessary. I'd have the fitter perform those as well.


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## Richard L (Jun 16, 2014)

Maybe this is worth reading before visiting the LBS.

How to Fit a Bicycle


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Without reading the entire thread, just will mention this regarding saddle height.

Don't forget that the shoes and pedal system have a stack which needs to be adjusted for.

Measure your inseam barefoot, do the 106-9% thing as a baseline, adjust for toes up or down style of pedaling etc etc. Add in the stack of the shoe/pedal system, or just start with 109% and go from there...


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

PJ352 said:


> A couple of thoughts...
> 
> As Mandeville points out, fit issues can be complex, and there are almost always compromises made. But as long as those compromises are within a range acceptable to your anatomy, all will be well with a "near optimal" fit. How to best get you there is the question.
> 
> ...


Getting the bike fitted by my LBS will be easy. I have a ride planned with the guy who does the fitting at Performance Bike next week. I'll have him help me with that before we start the ride if I don't figure it out this week. He wasn't there when I bought the bike but was fairly sure a 54cm frame was the right fit. If it isn't, then its my fault for jumping the gun. I still love the bike and the fit feels good. I just need the details sorted out.

When first making these changes I had the bike on my trainer. It felt good on the trainer but issues don't really come up till 40mins into any given ride. Its hard to spend that much time on the trainer. I just hate stopping once I'm on the road! I might have to just stop and make adjustments mid ride when I start getting uncomfortable for a direct comparison.

I do like the idea of setting my seat height for a 30 degree bend at the knee. It seems like a pretty definitive measurment for the "correct" seat height. I might try dropping my heels more to see how it feels too. I do pedal heel heigh which helps pull throught the bottom of my pedal stroke with flats.

Its a lot of details but I have a better sense of direction for things to try first thanks to the help. Or like was said I probably need more time to adjust. I just don't want to accept that one .


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

You need a copy of the book, Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists, by Dr. Andy Pruitt. It will explain how to set up seat position and accommodate for a leg length discrepancy.

Also, that 30 degree angle suggested in another reply is not an absolute. Another good source for bike fit information which will mention that angle is Dr. Arnie Baker's book, Bike Fit, available at roadbikerider.com. Regarding the 30 degree angle he says, "Power riders may set the saddle higher. Beginners may set the saddle lower." His e-book mentions more than one approach for all the various fit parameters on a bike.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I was taught to measure inseam holding your level into your private area with about the same force as your bike seat while riding. That would be fairly tight.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

BikeLayne said:


> I was taught to measure inseam holding your level into your private area with about the same force as your bike seat while riding. That would be fairly tight.


That's what I was taught as well but of course there are many different methods. The best thing you can do in my opinion is to slowly increase/decrease the seat height and see how it feels (on long rides) until you find the best seat height for your body.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Yes, once it is close, the only way to dial it in is to stop in the middle of a long ride and adjust it till it is right. Maybe 'right' changes the next ride! .. so it's a process, your not going to get 'the answer' from a formula.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

I used a thin yard stick that my wife checked with a level (level wasn't long enough on its own) to get my inseam measurement. So it was a 'full' measurement so to speak; once with and once without shoes. Even with shoes the seat height was pretty low. I raised my seat slightly for the next ride which is probably tomorrow. I'll adjust it along the way if I need to.

Thanks for the book recommendations Peter! I'll start with Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists and probably get Bike Fit when I'm finished. Between the mountain bike and road bike I nearly tripled my weekly mileage. So injuries due to poor bike setup has me paranoid.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Fajita Dave said:


> Getting the bike fitted by my LBS will be easy. I have a ride planned with the guy who does the fitting at Performance Bike next week. I'll have him help me with that before we start the ride if I don't figure it out this week. He wasn't there when I bought the bike but was fairly sure a 54cm frame was the right fit. If it isn't, then its my fault for jumping the gun. I still love the bike and the fit feels good. I just need the details sorted out.


Good plan. If the overall fit feels good, you're likely on the right size frame. As you say, the details (tweaks, I call them) need to be sorted out to dial in your fit.



Fajita Dave said:


> When first making these changes I had the bike on my trainer. It felt good on the trainer but issues don't really come up till 40mins into any given ride. Its hard to spend that much time on the trainer. I just hate stopping once I'm on the road! I might have to just stop and make adjustments mid ride when I start getting uncomfortable for a direct comparison.


Trainer fittings are 'static' fits. Out on the road, is a 'dynamic' fit. Very different, for a number of reasons. 

Good fitters will do initial fits on a trainer, then have you ride (as they observe), then make small adjustments from there. After that, assuming you're relatively comfortable, they advise you to log some miles, then return (if needed) for more tweaks to fit.

As you can probably tell, the process evolves, and is difficult for someone new to the process to follow. Getting info from books or the web is all well and good, but there's no substitute for experience. 



Fajita Dave said:


> *I do pedal heel heigh *which helps pull throught the bottom of my pedal stroke with flats.


So do a lot of pros. Doesn't seem to hold them back any. :wink5:



Fajita Dave said:


> I probably need more time to adjust. I just don't want to accept that one


Just be careful of overuse injuries. They're common and real. And can sideline you for longer than you'd like to think.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

I will be careful of overuse injuries. I also rock climb which has a pretty high rate of injury; especially for tendons. It took a while to strengthen the tendons for that so I know how it feels just before something is ready to break (I've pushed it very close twice). I just wasn't expecting to have any overuse issues making the transition from one bike to another.

Strava does show I average a higher wattage output riding the road bike. Can't say if thats just because the bike is more effecient which makes it appear to Strava that I'm applying more effort or not. It certainly feels like I'm exerting more effort on the road bike. Oddly enough it seems easier on cardio and V02 than the mtb but its harder on my legs.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Fajita Dave said:


> I just wasn't expecting to have any overuse issues making the transition from one bike to another.


... and you may not. But because of a couple of comments you made, I think it's something to be cognizant of. It is a different type of riding. More on that below. 



Fajita Dave said:


> Strava does show I average a higher wattage output riding the road bike. Can't say if thats just because the bike is more effecient which makes it appear to Strava that I'm applying more effort or not. *It certainly feels like I'm exerting more effort on the road bike. Oddly enough it seems easier on cardio and V02 than the mtb but its harder on my legs*.


My guess is it's because of the nature of road riding - repetitive spinning, and at a higher cadence. That's partly where the acclimation comes in.. along with riding position.

You'll do ok. You're willing to learn and are open to others thoughts/ ideas. Pick and choose what works for you and go with it. We've all stumbled along the way. That's the learning process.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

PJ352 said:


> You'll do ok. You're willing to learn and are open to others thoughts/ ideas. Pick and choose what works for you and go with it. We've all stumbled along the way. That's the learning process.


Yeah I hate the learning process but thats why I ask so many questions! Try to get it over with quickly.


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## ChiroX (Oct 30, 2015)

If your hamstrings hurt, chances are, your saddle is too high, if your quads hurt, then it is too low. 

Raising the saddle 1 cm equates to about 3mm longer in the cockpit depending on seat tube angle due to the reasons others have described. 

FWIW, my inseam is 84.58 and my saddle height from center of bb to top of the saddle is about 73 cm depending on my sole-width. 

When I got a mountain bike this year, the recommended saddle heights were very high compared to my road bikes. That was with the fully extended knee lock with the pedde at the bottom of the stroke. I ended up setting it the same as my road bikes. 

Maybe you really should get a fitting. In meantime, try this link on bike-fitting:

BikeFit - Road Bikes


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