# cati break or V break



## kkman (Oct 19, 2004)

which one is the best choice in your cyclocross? using V break is better than cati break, or just good looking?


----------



## JPLROPER (Oct 8, 2004)

I've switched to V-brakes and use the travel agent to get the right amount of cable pull. I like them much better than the canti's, I could never get them set up right. The V's don't work as good on my cross bike as they do on the mtb, but still a step in the right direction.


----------



## kingfurby (May 9, 2004)

I fantasize (it's sad) about building up a cross bike with v-brakes and compatible Dia Compe levers with a single chainring and bar-end shifter for the rear-end.

Cantilever brakes work reasonably well if you spend some time setting them up, but I find their stopping power isn't even as good as Shimano road calipers, on the road anyway. Prepare to be disappointed with what cantilevers feel like mated to road brake levers, but if you want to use integrated shift levers it's either cantilevers or the travel agent. That is, if your bike is not disc compatible. Cyclocross just isn't popular enough to warrant it's own sti lever yet.


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

*Your gonna get a LOT of anti V-brake feedback*



kkman said:


> which one is the best choice in your cyclocross? using V break is better than cati break, or just good looking?


I ran them (XTR) for a bit with the travel agent and they worked great. People whine about setting up the travel agent but it's pretty basic and once done you don't even notice it. I now run Avid Shorty Ti's (canti's) on my new bike and people rip on these brakes constantly which leaves me shaking my head. Toe them in a little and they don't squeal and they stop pretty darn good, what's so hard about that? If you were starting from scratch I'd go canti's, if you have some nice v-brakes laying around, run em.


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

another vote for V's. they are MUCH easier to set up and in most cases more powerful (need that when i ride trails). jeez, if a bike mechanic can't handle V's, he might as well quit his job. 

some complain about pads being too close to rim on V's. hmm...i always wondered why would someone worry about that? if the pads rub the rim when cornering or sprinting, that's either the wheels not stiff enough or the frame's flexy (i never got any rubbing). when yoke cable angle is set up as instructed, tektro oryx's pads aren't any farther away than the V's i have on my mtbs (any farther the levers would bottom out on handlebar). if there's mud on the rims, i doubt it's gonna create any appreciable drag. when i was riding in thick mud. the drag comes from the mud pile on chainstay.


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

Canti canti canti. I raced on Vs for a season and they sucked ass. Even with the travel agent set up, they didn't work as well as a good set of cantis. And it ceratinly doesn't require a rocket science degree to set up a pair of cantis.

As 'weather' has pointed out, you need to run the V pads extremely close to the rim. The problem with this has nothing to do with the pad rubbing the wheel. The problem is mud clearence. Ride through one puddle and you're scraping the rims for the rest of the race. Ride in a sticky muddy race, and you're going to have mud packed up on the brake arms as well. Cantis get the hell out of the way and give gobs of room.

Cantis flat out feel better. I've used XTs, Spookys, and now Pauls. Every single set has felt better than the XTR Vs that I used. I like a strong return spring so that when I release the lever, the brakes snap back. Achieving that with cantis is a given. Not so much with Vs. I get far superior modulation with the cantis.

My suspicion is that the people who hate cantis are the people who want to run a cable from the lever to the brake and forget about it until the cable snaps. Yup, cantis require a bit of maintenance. Like 15 minutes a month. I set up my race bikes in August, and have probably a hundred plus hours on them, and 10 races so far this year. I've adjusted the brakes once in that time.

If you really want to know what works, take a look at the pro's bikes. Then come back and tell us how many of them are racing on Vs.


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

V pads are NOT extremely close to rim. certainly not closer than many many canti's i've seen. after crossing some water bodies your pads are going to scrape regardless whether it's canti or V, it's because when you brake the stuff left on the rim will stick to the pads and scrape. for BOTH canti's and V's, you can adjust the spring tension to get your calipers to snap back--the trade off is (for both brakes as well) you have to use more force on the lever to get the pads to the rim.

i haven't seen any case, other than pedro's mud fest, where the mud sticks to the rims so much that mud accumulate on V pads enough to be a problem.

most pro's ride STI or ergos, so that travel agent is required for V's. the problem is the travel agent not the V's (despite the problems travis brown used V's and aero levers with travel agents on his single speed mtb). 

just about every mtb rider switched to V's from canti's (and then some to discs). more than enough of them ride in thick mud. why would they change if they got enough modulation and power and superior mud clearance with canti's?


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

"i haven't seen any case, other than pedro's mud fest, where the mud sticks to the rims so much that mud accumulate on V pads enough to be a problem."

Not sure how many cross races you've been to, but we had some sticky mud this weekend in NorCal.  Combo of mud and grass. It was sticky enough that it would stick to the tire tread and hit the chain stays. I had no issues whatsoever riding cantis. One guy was picking debris out of his Vs by the end of the race. (and we didn't even have that much mud)

"the problem is the travel agent not the V's"
Isn't that the same thing as saying there is a problem using Vs on a cross bike? You need the travel agent, therefore it is part of the entire braking system. A problem with one aspect of it is the same as having a problem with the entire system.

I could care less what pro riders have done for mtb, because it has zero impact on cyclocross. The pros have also moved to full suspension for XC racing. Adhering to your argument, it would follow that we should be racing cross on full suspension as well. 

I can state as fact that my brake pads are a hell of a lot further away on my cantis then they are with Vs. The cantis move in an arc, dropping down and away from the rim. Vs move laterally, which still leaves them close to the mud build-up. The brake arms are closer as well. Canti brake arms are below the tire, and well out of the way.

Bottom line: Cantis work better. And if you read the arguments against them in this thread, it's all because the cantis are "supposedly" difficult to set up. And that's just plain silly. Incompetence in setting up brakes is not an argument against the brakes themselves. And let's face it, setting up cantis is not that difficult.


----------



## cloughja (Nov 8, 2004)

*sounds familiar...*



kingfurby said:


> I fantasize (it's sad) about building up a cross bike with v-brakes and compatible Dia Compe levers with a single chainring and bar-end shifter for the rear-end.


That's the setup I'm running for my commuter/cross/do-all non-mountain bike. I'll attach some pics for you. In regards to the discussion at hand... I chose those brakes over cantis becuase I'm more of a MTB-er, so I'm more comfortable with V-brake setup, and that's what I had lying around.

Does anyone have any experience with the Tektro BMX mini-V's on a cross bike? Particularly the new ones, with a roller in stead of a noodle? Do they work alright with STI levers? I'm getting ready to build a Crosscheck up for my wife and am considering those becuase I can get them cheap on ebay and they look intriguing.


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

"Not sure how many cross races you've been to, but we had some sticky mud this weekend in NorCal. Combo of mud and grass. It was sticky enough that it would stick to the tire tread and hit the chain stays. I had no issues whatsoever riding cantis. One guy was picking debris out of his Vs by the end of the race. (and we didn't even have that much mud)"

not many. but i've ridden canti's and v's extensively in mud and mud+grass.

"Isn't that the same thing as saying there is a problem using Vs on a cross bike? You need the travel agent, therefore it is part of the entire braking system. A problem with one aspect of it is the same as having a problem with the entire system."

two words: diacompe 287v. paul's top levers also accomodate v's. as i said the problems only exist because STI and ergos can only pull a small amount of cable. i'll bet you 10 to 1 canti's are gonna be knocked out if STI and ergos were designed for V cable pull (not that this is gonna happen, though). 

"I could care less what pro riders have done for mtb, because it has zero impact on cyclocross. The pros have also moved to full suspension for XC racing. Adhering to your argument, it would follow that we should be racing cross on full suspension as well. "

bzzzz wrong! you got the cause and effect backwards. the reason you should care is not because they are pro riders, or that they ride mtb, but because they are in the same situation deciding what brakes to use, canti's or V's. (by the way, wasn't travis a top cx rider too?) on top of that, it's not just pro mtb riders, but everyday riders who abandoned canti's in favor of V's. even for mud. the cases against canti's are so much bigger.

"I can state as fact that my brake pads are a hell of a lot further away on my cantis then they are with Vs. The cantis move in an arc, dropping down and away from the rim. Vs move laterally, which still leaves them close to the mud build-up. The brake arms are closer as well. Canti brake arms are below the tire, and well out of the way."

all you are talking about are low profiles. not all canti's are low profiles. more than half of the canti's i see are high profiles (avid being most ubiquitous, followed by tektro). 

"Bottom line: Cantis work better. And if you read the arguments against them in this thread, it's all because the cantis are "supposedly" difficult to set up. And that's just plain silly. Incompetence in setting up brakes is not an argument against the brakes themselves. And let's face it, setting up cantis is not that difficult."

no. there's the power issue as well. and why do you want extra little pieces on your bike when you don't need them? more things means more things can go wrong.


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

sigh....

oh let's address this on a point by point basis:
1. Mud clearence: Riding Vs and cantis on a mtb don't count. Different beasts, different clearences.

2. DiaCompe levers: How many people are still racing with non-STI? Answer: less than 1%. DiaCompes aren't an option for the other 99%. And there has been plenty of time for somebody to design a 'cross-specific' V brake. Nobody has. But PLENTY of new canti designs based on the classic Mafacs. Why do you thing that is? Answer: Because it works better than a V design.

3. mtb vs cx: What works for mtb doesn't necessarily work for cross. Brakes included. Braking in cross is much more subtle. 

4. low vs high profile: I speak of what I use. Low profile because they work the best.

5. Power: I can set up a pair of cantis to rival any set of Vs. It's all in the set up. Cantis have that kind of tunability. Vs don't.

What I find amusing, and yet typical, is that you're speaking as if you're an expert on the matter of what brake is best for cross. And you've barely ridden, let alone raced a cross bike (refer to the "should I wear baggie shorts for cross" thread). Why don't you try the sport for a dozen plus years before you start spreading your opinion as experience.


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

oh let's address this on a point by point basis:
1. Mud clearence: Riding Vs and cantis on a mtb don't count. Different beasts, different clearences.

why? can a cross tire be fatter than a mtb tire? can a cross tire bring up more mud than a mtb tire?

2. DiaCompe levers: How many people are still racing with non-STI? Answer: less than 1%. DiaCompes aren't an option for the other 99%. And there has been plenty of time for somebody to design a 'cross-specific' V brake. Nobody has. But PLENTY of new canti designs based on the classic Mafacs. Why do you thing that is? Answer: Because it works better than a V design.

i don't buy that. imo it's because STI's and ergos aren't designed for V's.

3. mtb vs cx: What works for mtb doesn't necessarily work for cross. Brakes included. Braking in cross is much more subtle. 

still brakes, still the same cable pull, same pad-to-rim distance. tell me why it's different. from what i see, some of the descents on a cx course are as steep if not steeper than a mtb trail. if the tire and the mud can clear the v's on mtb (which has much fatter tires), why wouldn't it clear cross bike? 

4. low vs high profile: I speak of what I use. Low profile because they work the best.

but that does not stand for all canti's. 

5. Power: I can set up a pair of cantis to rival any set of Vs. It's all in the set up. Cantis have that kind of tunability. Vs don't.

tunability is true. that set up is much trickier than v's though. 

What I find amusing, and yet typical, is that you're speaking as if you're an expert on the matter of what brake is best for cross. And you've barely ridden, let alone raced a cross bike (refer to the "should I wear baggie shorts for cross" thread). Why don't you try the sport for a dozen plus years before you start spreading your opinion as experience.

simple. because you "experts" cannot convince we newbs otherwise, yet newbs do see other experts doing what they were not told to do. i'm not speaking as if i'm an expert. but i'm asking the kind of questions you experts didn't come up with a convincing answer.


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

here are some of the races that started all my doubts. all pix are of 2003 cx natiionals. 

the only rider that's riding this climb seems to be on v brakes. 
<img src="https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2003/dec03/UScrossnats/day3/hyun/cimg2017.jpg">

these two riders didn't seem to be using travel agents even. mud clearance seems to be ample. 
<img src="https://mk23.image.pbase.com/u37/sdukes/upload/24121337.cxnats1_034.jpg">
<img src="https://mk37.image.pbase.com/u37/sdukes/upload/24127516.cxnats2_010.jpg">

i'm not saying there are more V's than canti's in these races, but i don't see a problem with the V's either.


----------



## jeremyb (Jun 16, 2004)

what does riding a climb have to do with braking? That chick running is going to run right past this idiot riding sideways up the muddy hill. How is this an argument for canti's vs V's?

jeremyb


----------



## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

kingfurby said:


> I fantasize (it's sad) about building up a cross bike with v-brakes and compatible Dia Compe levers with a single chainring and bar-end shifter for the rear-end.


Well, let me snap you out of your fantasy....

I'm racing on a SS and I used a set of XTR Vs with Dia-Compe 287V levers for my first season. After the first season, I was so frustrated with the set-up and was looking into alternatives. I was never a fan of Vs on MTBs (way too touchy...I've been spoiled by discs on my MTB for 6+ yrs), but I wasn't fussy on cantis either, so I decided to try the Vs (which I thought were the lesser of two evils). I raced on these for a season and was constantly having to do something with them. I eventually ditched them and went with a set of the NOS Shimano XTs. 

The XTs were much better than the Vs (better modulation and much better pad/rim clearance), but I still had some issues with them...mainly, adjusting the damn things! I felt like I needed 4 hands just to get everything adjusted right. Again, I've been spoiled with discs and never really had to deal with cantis when I got into MTB'ing 10-yrs ago...I immediately went to Magura HS-22 hydraulic rim brakes and never dealt with yoke heights and brake angles, etc.

The odd part was, the brake mounting bolt bottomed-out before hitting the brake with my True Temper 'cross fork, so there was some play in the brake...just shy of 1mm. I tried using a spacer in behind the brake in hopes to take up the play, but it didn't work...instead, it just caused the brake to bind slightly. 

Eventually, I grew frustrated with this set-up and toyed with either the Paul's Neos/Touring or Spookys. After reading all the comments here, I opted to go with Paul's combo....Wow, finally a powerful, well modulated brake that's easy to install, easy to set-up, etc. 

I'm not sure why I waited so long to get the Pauls!


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

for that particular pic there doesn't seem to be enough mud accumulation on the V's that affects the climb, yes?


----------



## Vegancx (Jan 22, 2004)

weather said:


> for that particular pic there doesn't seem to be enough mud accumulation on the V's that affects the climb, yes?


All the Kelly riders use Vs on their cross bikes... Chris thinks it's a good idea, and he'll tell you all about why if you ask. She's using XTR Vs with Dia Compe 287-V levers and Kelly Take-Off shifter mounts. 

The pictured rider didn't have much choice in bike set-up. She's also running a mtn triple... probably why she's able to ride that climb. 

Interestingly, it looks like she's running an Alpha Q, not a Kelly fork... there's a 9 mm difference in rake between those forks.


----------



## wunlap togo (Oct 1, 2004)

*I concur, Paul's are best....*

If you don't race, who cares? You can run grabby vbrakes, get off at your leisure and remove grassy, muddy buildup and turn up your headphones to drown out the noise of your pads grinding along on your mud clogged tires/rims/fork/frame. You can sit at home and twiddle with travel agent pulleys till 2 in the morning. You can look at Kelley team riders and imagine their wierd, goofy bike setup is a-ok. In the end you will find that mechanical disc brakes are the best thing for you, because you will never get involved with a UCI sanctioned cyclocross race. 
If you do race, get Paul brakes. They are the best for many reasons. And they come in red. And vbrakes look silly on a cross bike.


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

one more time... 

1. cross bikes in general have tighter clearences to begin with.
2. whether you buy it or not doesn't change the fact. 99% of racers are using STI. It's naive to think that they should, or would, change their shifters.
3. the braking needs for cross are not the same as mtb. cross braking is more about slight modulations. mtb braking needs are more severe. cross is all about being able to feather the brakes, mtb is more about having pure stopping power.
4. who cares. kkman asked for help. I'm telling him what works. (note the use of "telling". I'm not saying what I think might work. I've run them both, raced them both, and cantis work, Vs don't. What's your evidence?)
5. well at east we agree on something.
6. "experts" vs newbs. kkman asked for help. not un-informed opinion. have you even ridden a cross bike with a properly set-up pair of cantis? if not then all you're offering is conjecture and ignorance.

And that picture from 2003 Nats is just plain stupid. On the first level because riding up a hill has nothing to do with braking. On the second level because while the course was indeed muddy, it was so wet that nothing was really sticking, much less packing up. I should know, because I raced it. Where were you?


----------



## weather (Feb 6, 2004)

one more time... 

sure

1. cross bikes in general have tighter clearences to begin with.

what tighter clearnaces are you talking about? how does that affect brakes?

2. whether you buy it or not doesn't change the fact. 99% of racers are using STI. It's naive to think that they should, or would, change their shifters.

you did not give any evidence that the canti's popularity is due to its superior braking performance rather than due to its compatibility with STI. in other words the reason you gave and the reason i gave both explain the outcome, question is which one has a bigger effect. you didn't prove yours does. 

3. the braking needs for cross are not the same as mtb. cross braking is more about slight modulations. mtb braking needs are more severe. cross is all about being able to feather the brakes, mtb is more about having pure stopping power.

guess you are right on this one. but the course i rode did require more power in the brakes esp when it's wet. 

4. who cares. kkman asked for help. I'm telling him what works. (note the use of "telling". I'm not saying what I think might work. I've run them both, raced them both, and cantis work, Vs don't. What's your evidence?)

run them both-check (cx). raced canti's. sucked (no confidence going downhill). that's why went for V's. 

5. well at east we agree on something.

sure thing. 

6. "experts" vs newbs. kkman asked for help. not un-informed opinion. have you even ridden a cross bike with a properly set-up pair of cantis? if not then all you're offering is conjecture and ignorance.

yes i have. i've set up more than my share of canti's and v's in my last lbs to know how to do it. my own cx initially was built up with canti's and now i'm switching. (anyone want some machintech canti's?) 

And that picture from 2003 Nats is just plain stupid. On the first level because riding up a hill has nothing to do with braking. On the second level because while the course was indeed muddy, it was so wet that nothing was really sticking, much less packing up. I should know, because I raced it. Where were you?

was riding my mtb with v's back then. thankyouverymuch. if mud packs enough to cause drag with the use of in V's, it would show first in a climb, right? those are the pix i managed to find online. what about 2002 cx nationals? and the one before that? i've seen quite a few bikes with v's. seen local races with sticking mud and v's there as well. well looks like since i didn't race those i gotta be lying. heh.


----------



## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

*ok here's the real answer*

The real reason most 'crossers I know don't use Vs is that of simple physics. The contact patch on a cyclocross tire is so small in comparison to that of a MTB tire that the added leverage of a V (long cantilever) style brake will quickly overwhelm it and lock it up. Read: no braking modulation. Travel agents do a little to mitigate this, but not nearly enough. 

But go ahead, put the Vs on and have at it. You'll do like I, and every other first year 'crosser I've known and switch back to some form of modern cross specific canti by next season. The clearance thing was minor IMO in comparison to having little to no braking modulation, even with a travel agent. You'll eventually get tired of sliding around in corners and not knowing if you'll have predictable traction on muddy, slippery descents because you're never certain when you're going to hit a bump and grab the brakes just that teensy bit over the lockup edge. 

Travis Brown isn't racing Vs for cyclocross this season. I've seen him at every race I've done so far. The reason, as cycloscott pointed out, is that Vs do indeed suck ass for cross. 

And yes, that picture is just plain silly.


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

I'm done. There's trying to have an intelligent discussion. And then there's exchanging opinions with somebody who is ill-informed and close minded.

Vs suck. Cantis work.

kkman, you can take the advice of people who have actually ridden and raced on them. Or you can take the advice of a newbie mtbr-crossover who has no real experience with them on a cross bike and wants to know if he can remount in baggie shorts without snagging. Your choice.


----------



## kingfurby (May 9, 2004)

Thanks for the tips. After reading all of these posts, v-brakes sound like a good choice for a touring bike but are probably a little too touchy for cyclocross. I've had pretty good results racing on Avid shortys for the past three years. But when I hit the road and have to come to a stop at a sign I have to use an incredible amount of force on the brake levers compared to road calipers and v-brakes. I think I will go with cantilevers off-road and v-brakes for on-road training and touring. Does this make sense?


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*just go to any UCI race or pix of any (piling on)*

the only pros you see running vees are Kelly Riders (US, and it's their sponsors gig)
and abroad none to my knowledge. Now guys who raced for Empella had Bike/ Brake sponsors (so we can exclude), most do not so why are they all choosing canti's?
hmmmmmmm World's Best say Canti.
newbie says vee.


----------



## piercebrew (Aug 6, 2004)

*Avid Shorty*

I have a Kelly with the steel fork, and my front brake stutters and squeals. It also actually pulls the front rim back a good inch. This causes the brakes to grab more. My LBS told me this would happen, and want me to set up my XTR Vs that I have on an old bike. I was thinking about giving it a try....but all this about Paul's is making me think about trying them. 
Some questions. Will my fork still pull back to the frame? Are they really that easy to set up? I can set up Vs easily but Cantis are really just before my time, I started riding Mnt bikes the year of the XTR Vs (the ones I have now). 

I just want something that I wont have to worry about. 

Please help.


----------



## piercebrew (Aug 6, 2004)

*What about the Radius Retro Canti?*

Anyone riding these? 
I have my Avid Shortys Toed in an insane amount and they still chatter, and squeal.
Thanks.


----------



## Grahamalicious (May 13, 2003)

If you can't adjust your canti's properly (avids, shimano 550s, etc...), you need to find some of these and the end of a MTB brake cable. Then read this.

Then take some time to setup your cantilever brakes properly, and they'll be all the brakes you'll ever need. Then you will have mastered the art of cantilever setup, and you can look down on all the silly people using v brakes with travel agents. 

Oh, and the first.... 3 people to PM me for my address and then send me a couple of bucks ($3? $4? $5?) can have a pair, then all you need is some old MTB cables.


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

Tough call. It could be partially due to the fork itself. Steel forks can get a bit 'whippy' over the course of their lifetime. Had the same thing happen with my Bonty. Last couple of seasons I started getting more and more brake chatter. Swapped it out for a new fork and it's gone.

Pauls are by far, the best brakes I've run. Pricey but very much worth it. Very easy to set up. Mount them loose onthe post, adjust the pad, then cinch down the brake arm to the desired spring tension. Adjust straddle cable and you're in business.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Radius*

I've never seen a great review of them. But people use em.


----------



## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

kingfurby said:


> Thanks for the tips. After reading all of these posts, v-brakes sound like a good choice for a touring bike but are probably a little too touchy for cyclocross. I've had pretty good results racing on Avid shortys for the past three years. But when I hit the road and have to come to a stop at a sign I have to use an incredible amount of force on the brake levers compared to road calipers and v-brakes. I think I will go with cantilevers off-road and v-brakes for on-road training and touring. Does this make sense?


No.

Yes, V's are too touchy for 'cross...even for MTB'ing, if you ask me. I prefer a nice, well modulated, yet powerful brake. My Magura Marta SL discs provide exactly this on my MTBs, so I was looking for something similar on my 'cross bike. I wasn't able to find it until now...the Paul's are it!

I've never used Avid Shorty's, but I've read they work well, but generally I've read they are noisey. I hate noise on my bikes, so I never even considered the Avids. You shouldn't need to use excessive hand-force to stop...especially on the road. It sounds to me like you need to adjust your brakes to increase stopping power.

Personally, either adjust your Avids so that they work well on the road or get yourself a set of Pauls and keep them on for both applications. There's really no need to swap brakes for on- and off-road.


----------



## jroden (Jun 15, 2004)

I've been around the same barn with the v-brakes (and disks for that matter) and am currently using the froglegs, which are OK. I think part of the root of the problem with the v brakes is the distance between the mounting studs appears to be narrower on cross bikes, as compared to mtb's Even with a travel agent, I had pads scrapping in muddy conditions and had to pull the level all the way to the handlebars and click my heels 3 times to get the damn bike to stop.


----------



## Worthless Son Frames (Oct 3, 2004)

a little old, but math doesn't lie ( not that i understand any of it) 
http://www.bontrager.com/keith/rants.asp?id=27


----------



## Miles E (Jul 31, 2003)

1speed_Mike said:


> get yourself a set of Pauls


Which Pauls, the Neo-Retro or Touring? I like the looks of the Touring ones more, but do you give up much in the way of power with those?


----------



## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

Miles E said:


> Which Pauls, the Neo-Retro or Touring? I like the looks of the Touring ones more, but do you give up much in the way of power with those?


One of each, actually. I use the Neos up front and the Tourings in the rear, because of clearance issues. The Neos stick-out horizontally from the brake boss about 2", which can cause clearance issues with feet, calves, etc. when mounted in the rear. The Tourings are much narrower than the Neos, and as a result, will give up ~10% of the power to the Neos. But, as Paul states on his site, this is actually a good thing because the Neos are damn strong and will flex most rear stays before actually applying any braking force.


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*nice*

too bad he's a retrogrouch no nothing luddite ;o)


----------



## cycloscott (Dec 16, 2002)

retrogrouch: kind of
luddite: not exactly
no nothing: hardly

I know you're only kidding... But Keith just finished his 50th 24th hour race this summer. Lately he's been on a Fisher Sugar. Now a total retro-grouch luddite would be doing it on a fully rigid steel bike with clips and straps. Keith uses what works, and doesn't accept all of the marketing hype as gospel. And you can thank him and Paul Turner for bringing front suspension to mountain biking. It was Keith's crown design that allow Rock Shox to make working forks.

It's been a while since I read that particular rant... but I'm pretty sure he even admits in there that Vs work pretty damned well. But he dispels the notion that they work soooooo much better than a properly set up and maintained set of cantis. I've chatted with Keith at several cross races over the course of the years. He's an honest-to-goodness tinkerer. If something works, he tries to find a way to make it work better. If something doesn't work for crap, he'll call it out, and then fix it if it's worthwhile.


----------

