# Seven vs. Serotta



## vitdoc (Nov 22, 2004)

I have a LeMond Zurich(carbon/steel version) and have decided to get a new custom bike.
I test road a Seven Axiom and a Serotta Legend and a Calfee.
I was surprised that the Axiom gave by far the smoothest ride of the three. 
I generally go on club rides of 30-50 miles and an occasional century.
I have decided to get the Axiom. I wanted a Ti over a carbon bike since I think the Ti will be more resistant to damage (minor and major) than a carbon bike.
Does anyone have an experience with the Axiom or the Serotta? Any strong feelings about one or the other?


----------



## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

That's funny. I test rode an Ottrot and an Axiom last year, and ended up buying a LeMond Maillot Jaune (same frame as your Zurich). I just liked it better, but that said, I thought they were all pretty sweet, the Ottrot in particular. I don't see how you can go wrong with any of those bikes.


----------



## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

vitdoc said:


> I have a LeMond Zurich(carbon/steel version) and have decided to get a new custom bike.
> I test road a Seven Axiom and a Serotta Legend and a Calfee.
> I was surprised that the Axiom gave by far the smoothest ride of the three.
> I generally go on club rides of 30-50 miles and an occasional century.
> ...


 What's wrong with the Lemond? Buying a $7000 dollar bike doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially given the yearly mileage that you are suggesting. If you said, gee, my bike is getting kind of tired, or it doesn't fit right, and I'm doing 6000 miles this year and plan to increase it - go ahead and buy a new bike.
As far as seven and serotta, perhaps great frames, but you pay in spades for the image. Strong makes a custom ti frame for $2200. He's been building customs for a long time, and still seeks a fair price.


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

What were the differences between the Seven and Serotta in terms of geometry and setup? Either bike should be great but you should probably try to understand exactly why the Seven was the "smoothest" before you make your decision. Could have just been the tires...


----------



## midlife_xs's (Jun 18, 2004)

vitdoc said:


> I have a LeMond Zurich(carbon/steel version) and have decided to get a new custom bike.
> I test road a Seven Axiom and a Serotta Legend and a Calfee.
> I was surprised that the Axiom gave by far the smoothest ride of the three.
> I generally go on club rides of 30-50 miles and an occasional century.
> ...


If you wanted to go custom and can afford it, why not? 
I don't understand why others would like to steer you away from your decision  I'll be the first one to say that buying luxurious things sometimes doesn't have rhyme nor reason. 

I've been perusing the catalogue of Seven. From what I read, you can have the ride that you like - lively, smooth or stiff or whatever. It is not only about length of toptube/seattube, bb height or angles. I bet Serrota does that too. So it'll all come down to customer service... And the waiting time


----------



## Dick Rhee (Jun 15, 2005)

Be careful with choosing the stiffness/etc with the Seven, I've heard of people putting a 5 or 10 or something on the stiffness and ending up with a bike that was way too stiff or too compliant. Maybe you can have them mimick the settings given from the bike you test rode or something. 

Anyway, if you haven't already put in your order for the Seven, it wouldn't hurt to try a Moots. The Vamoots is cheaper than the Axiom and I found it to have a nicer ride than the Seven I tried. In fact, I'm picking up my new Vamoots tomorrow morning. Super excited.


----------



## vitdoc (Nov 22, 2004)

I am aware of the variations that can occur with the same frame from a manufacturer based on how stiff it is made. I have asked that the settings from the bike I tested be used as a starting point for the new bike. The Lemond is fine but I think I could be fit a bit better with a new bike. I also want to upgrade the components. I can afford the bike. So what the hell.


----------



## Dick Rhee (Jun 15, 2005)

vitdoc said:


> I am aware of the variations that can occur with the same frame from a manufacturer based on how stiff it is made. I have asked that the settings from the bike I tested be used as a starting point for the new bike. The Lemond is fine but I think I could be fit a bit better with a new bike. I also want to upgrade the components. I can afford the bike. So what the hell.


Cool! What's the wait time on your Axiom?


----------



## harvey (Feb 27, 2005)

Dick Rhee said:


> Anyway, if you haven't already put in your order for the Seven, it wouldn't hurt to try a Moots. The Vamoots is cheaper than the Axiom and I found it to have a nicer ride than the Seven I tried. In fact, I'm picking up my new Vamoots tomorrow morning. Super excited.


Almost the same day last spring that I got my Moots a good friend of mine got a Seven Axiom that he had been waiting for. His bike cost about $1500 more than mine, it's a nice bike, but I wouldn't trade mine for his. I know you'll enjoy yours, Dick. Congratulations and welcome to the "Moots Owners Club".


----------



## midlife_xs's (Jun 18, 2004)

Dick Rhee said:


> Cool! What's the wait time on your Axiom?


This was last August 1, 2005
I was inquiring about a Seven I saw at a store. Seven was prompt in their response.

_"Thank you for following up with the correct serial number. The number you have supplied indicates this is not a Signature Size frame. Please consult the folks at _______ for more information about whom the frame was built for, when it was built and what components they recommend using.



All of our frames are built to order. We do not have an inventory of frames available. As such, the price for a Signature Size and a Custom Kit Odonata are both $3,195. Our current lead-time for Custom Kit orders is 7 weeks. " _ 



Regards,



Scott Rosenthal | Customer Service | Seven Cycles, Inc. 

T: (617) 923-7774 ext. 39 | F: (617) 923-7757 | http://www.sevencycles.com


----------



## casqui45 (Feb 27, 2005)

Vitdoc,

I don't know why anybody on this board would dissuade you from a custom bike. I received my Seven Axiom in June and am ecstatic over it. The fit and finish is first class as is the ride. I also considered Serotta and Moots. I think that they're both fine machines. I thought the finish on the Seven was slightly finer than the Serotta, and I like the Seven process. If they tell you a bike will be ready a certain date, it's ready.

I know that there are many Moots' lovers on this board and they are nice bikes, but if I was spending that much on a bike, I wanted a custom fit.

By the way, I had mine painted red and outfitted with all Campy Chorus carbon for well under $7,000. There is a photo of it on the Seven message board.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

Casqui45


----------



## cdmc (Feb 3, 2004)

For my money, I would get a moots, there is just something about they look that I love. The truth is you are going to be happy with either the Serrotta or the Seven as both are excellent frames.


----------



## retinadoc (May 18, 2005)

*Get a Spectrum Titanium*

Assuming you and I are in the same field. I would visit Tom Kellogg in PA. and write the trip off by going to a meeting at Wills or Wilmer. Both Serotta and Seven are fine machines, but I doubt Ben Serotta will be doing your fitting. I have never heard of a unhappy Spectrum owner, and the chance to work directly with the builder in every aspect including paint will make it a memorable experience not just another expensive purchase.


----------



## BarryG (Jul 5, 2004)

vitdoc said:


> I was surprised that the Axiom gave by far the smoothest ride of the three.


Curious - did you use the same wheelset on all 3 test bikes? If not, what were the wheels?


----------



## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

vitdoc said:


> I have a LeMond Zurich(carbon/steel version) and have decided to get a new custom bike.
> I test road a Seven Axiom and a Serotta Legend and a Calfee.
> I was surprised that the Axiom gave by far the smoothest ride of the three.
> I generally go on club rides of 30-50 miles and an occasional century.
> ...


the Seven and the Serotta can be tuned to provide a wide range of ride characteristics. all you have to do is ask nicely. I have a Seven Alaris. my opinion: there is little meaningful difference between Seven and Serotta. you will likely be happy with either. Serotta's name has a bit more cachet (admittedly this is a bit subjective, and no one will ever scorn you for riding a Seven).


----------



## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

casqui45 said:


> Vitdoc,
> 
> I don't know why anybody on this board would dissuade you from a custom bike.
> 
> Casqui45


 Call me frugal. I only questioned the need, not the quality of the seven. It just seems like spending money for the sake of spending money. But people buy subzero fridges, and wolf ranges, and Hummers, and all sorts of things that don't improve the way they cook or drive off road (if they cook or drive off road at all.)
I recommended a Carl Strong custom, if you recall at the bottom of my post. I particularly liked the idea of the Spectrum - but then that's getting pretty pricey for me. Lustful but pricey. BTW, Moots does custom builds for an additional $300, plus the wait.

Buy whatever pleases you. It's only money. There's plenty more out there to make.


----------



## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

Seven or Serrotta? Most of us dream about having that problem.


----------



## LiteSpeeder (Jan 28, 2004)

*Moots Vamoots is actually more expensive than the Axiom*



Dick Rhee said:


> Be careful with choosing the stiffness/etc with the Seven, I've heard of people putting a 5 or 10 or something on the stiffness and ending up with a bike that was way too stiff or too compliant. Maybe you can have them mimick the settings given from the bike you test rode or something.
> 
> Anyway, if you haven't already put in your order for the Seven, it wouldn't hurt to try a Moots. The Vamoots is cheaper than the Axiom and I found it to have a nicer ride than the Seven I tried. In fact, I'm picking up my new Vamoots tomorrow morning. Super excited.



The 3/25 Vamoots is cheaper than the Axiom only if you purchase the standard geometry which is fine for most. But, a custom 3/25 Vamoots will be more expensive than the Axiom. $300 for a Moots custom job and $100 for a fitting job from either a Seven or serotta certified fitter. Add another $300 for a custom paint job and you're at the same price as a serotta legend ti.

:thumbsup:


----------



## LiteSpeeder (Jan 28, 2004)

weiwentg said:


> Serotta's name has a bit more cachet (admittedly this is a bit subjective, and no one will ever scorn you for riding a Seven).


One thing that really turns me off about serotta frames is the actual name of the company. As you said, it's all subjective but the name "serotta" sounds ugly and harsh to the ears. The ellis island entry guard should had anglicanized the name to something like Shelby or Sheffield or Shepard. These would have been much softer sounding names for a bike frame.

The name "Seven" is pleasant to the ears but somewhat overutilized. IMO, seven has much more cahet than serotta does when it comes to bike names. Just my opinion.

:thumbsup:


----------



## LiteSpeeder (Jan 28, 2004)

casqui45 said:


> Vitdoc,
> 
> I don't know why anybody on this board would dissuade you from a custom bike. I received my Seven Axiom in June and am ecstatic over it. The fit and finish is first class as is the ride. I also considered Serotta and Moots. I think that they're both fine machines. I thought the finish on the Seven was slightly finer than the Serotta, and I like the Seven process. If they tell you a bike will be ready a certain date, it's ready.
> 
> ...


Moots does custom. You can get fitted by a Seven or serotta certified fitter and give Moots the measurements. It would be $300 extra dollars plus about $100 dollars for the fitting. That would put the 3/25 Vamoots frame at about $2800 and the 6/4 Vamoots frame at $3800 retail.

But Moots is more honest about the whole custom process than serotta is. Most cyclists out there with normal body proportions can perfectly dial in a bike fit by purchasing the right frame size and then adjusting the seat, seatpost and stem length. Many frame builders already have sizes that spaced out by 1cm giving the buyer a large number of frame sizes from which to choose from. Even a custom frame could not fit properly if the seatpost and stem lengths are off.

So, Moots offers a variety of sizes to fit most riders. And they also offer custom for those who need custom. But they don't shove custom down your throat as serotta does, and I like that.

:idea:


----------



## Blah! Blah! Blah! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Seven vs Serotta*

I have been riding a Seven for a little over a year now and I picked up a Serotta about a week or so ago. I would definitley find someone that is ceritifed and does great bike fits. I only have a couple of miles on the Serotta since I have been moving the last week but the fit is about 180 degrees opposite my Seven. My experience was that the Serrota fit was more accurate and scientifically calculated. They used a mock up build and spent hours working with me. My fit for the Seven was fairly quick and alot of it was eye balled. I wish I knew then what I know now. My advice make sure you know what you want and find someone that will take the time to work with you. Fit is everything. 

My Serotta dealer told me that the fit is guarenteed. If it does not fit or I do not like it then it is the fitter problem not Serotta's. At which point the Fitter/LBS will deal with it and do whatever it takes to have my bike fitting correctly. Make sure the Serotta dealer/fitter is certified. 

Hope this gives you some food for thought. 

Pat


----------



## vitdoc (Nov 22, 2004)

*Seven with Serotta fit*

I purchased my Seven at a shop that sold Serotta also. The fit was done by a Serotta certified technician. My wife incidently got a Serotta there. I think the Serotta fit system with the mock up bike makes sense. You get on it and at least for the time you are in the shop get some idea what the bike will feel like. Still not perfect but make sense.


----------



## mmercier (Jul 15, 2004)

*They're both great bikes, but different!*

I have a Ti Legend and a Ti Axiom. Both are custom bikes. I was measured for the Seven by a Serotta Fit Technician on a Serotta Fit Bike. I puchased the Legend slightly used when I found a frame that matched the geos of my Seven. Both of my bikes have similar setups. The Legend is outfitted with DA9 and the Seven with DA10. Both bikes have the same bar, stem, saddle, wheel and tire configurations. Here's my take on the bikes: 

Axiom: Very smooth riding bike. Smooth and responsive is how I would describe the ride. This bike has 7cm BB drop. Drivetrain rigidity is adequately stiff without being harsh. I weigh 170 lbs and can crank up hills without any noticeable rub or flex whatsoever. A very nice ride overall. Descending at high speeds, the bike is solid, but does require your attention. I feel slightly less "secure" at high speeds on the Axiom than I do on the Legend. I think this is due to Axiom's higher BB. Total bike weight: 16.3 lbs

Legend: Almost as smooth as the Axiom, but not quite. This bike has a 8 cm BB drop. This effectively puts the BB closer to the ground. The bike is noticeably less agile (side to side) than the Seven. Put another way, the bike is more stable than the Seven. Others would say it feels sluggish. The drivetrain rigidity of this bike feels similar to the Seven. During high speed descents, this bike corners and tracks like it is on rails. This bike inspires more confidence on a high speed descent than my Axiom, to a slight, but noticeable degree. Total bike weight: 17.2 lbs

Summary: Both bikes are great rides. The differences I have highlighted are subtle at most. I probably ride the Seven just a bit more than the Legend. The Seven is a very smooth, responsive ride IMHO. The Legend has a less agile (more stable) feel to the ride and definitely has the advantage on high speed descents.

Keep in mind, one person's "agile" is another's "skittishness". My "stable" may be your "sluggish".

IMHO you can't go wrong with either bike. Both companies are capable of building you a world class quality bike. Good luck!:thumbsup:


----------



## vitdoc (Nov 22, 2004)

*Got the Seven*

I posted last year on Seven vs. Serotta. I got the Seven Axiom.SG set at the default stiffness of 7 on a scale of 1-10 (as per Seven's system). I tried a Calfee carbon and a Serotta Legend before I ended up with the Seven. I felt the Seven was the smoothest of the three.
In the subsequent 10 months I have been very satisfied with my bike. It seems plenty stiff (I am 200 lbs) and it is "agile". I had a Lemond Zurich. The Zurich was like a car with a 45 foot turning radius the Seven has a 35 foot radius. The quality is first rate and I have had no problems.
My wife got a new bike after I got mine. She also test road a variety of bikes and ended up with a Serotta Nove. A combo carbon-Ti bike. She feels like it rides like "riding on a cloud".
Also no problems with it and excellent fabrication.
There are many great bikes out there.
Also the cost was not really that outrageous. My custom bike with Dura Ace 10 , FSA carbon bars , hand built wheels with Mavic rims and Dswiss hubs was around $5500.
My wife's with similar set up was about $1500 more. Compared to a new car a bargain.


----------



## mtbjay (May 7, 2008)

*Living with a seven*

I Googled Seven vs Serotta for fun and found this old thread. Coincidentally, I sold a LeMond Zurich (Carbon/Steel variant) prior to owning a custom 7 Axiom w/Dura-Ace 10 - just like the original poster of this thread. Interestingly, I too debated Serotta vs. Seven, as I had had a "dream ride" on a Serotta that stuck with me for years before I ever even thought of affording one. In the end, SEVEN won my business due to my confidence and familiarity with their product and customer experience as I sold both at the shop I worked at.

To me, buying a custom titanium frame today, in the face of über-light carbon bikes, really makes a statement. Carbon bikes are lighter and generally smoother, but the titanium bike can be designed specifically for you and... lasts forever. Mine is set-up for two wheel sets, one light racing set-up and one traditionally spoked, hand-laced wheels with 25mm wide rubber. I enjoyed creating a bike that I could race competitively as well as take on adventure rides that cover gravel and dirt roads without worrying about the fragility of a carbon frame.

The ride is a bit stiff and perhaps I could have had another centimeter added to the top tube and head tube, but I did get pretty much exactly what I requested. That is Seven's trademark - we'll make it just like you ask. Word of advice: be certain about your design influence before you sign-off. Err cautiously on the better side of: stiff vs. compliant, quick vs. stable, and you'll be OK.

I miss my LeMond somedays, for it had the smoothest ride I've ever experienced (w/25mm tires). Bikes are bikes though, and if the fit is good, you can usually live with the rest. Dropping the big dough on a custom ride and you better get the details down!


----------

