# zone 2 problems?



## daxiang28 (Sep 5, 2006)

So I'm just getting into heart rate training and feeling out my zones. I've come to realize that i have a big gaping hole where zone 2-3 exists. I have traditionally done a lot of hill training and higher intensity stuff and am really starting to notice it in races where I'll be in a pack at about 140-145 and then running into a hill where it will elevate to about 165-170 and can't get it down or control my breath. 

The problem I'm noticing is that I'm not aerobic at 145 and when I hit that hill, my heart rate rises and I can't get it to come down. My theory is that it's the 2-3 zone hole b/c, come second lap, after powering through some sprints right before that very same hill and starting it at 160, I can power through that hill climb and even attack at the top. During the hill climb, I'm in control of my breath and stay steady at 170-175. 

Anybody hae any ideas or know of where I can get info about this?

Thanks,
Steve


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I'm not sure who's zones you're referring to, there are a number of books and manuals out there. And I think you need more experience w/ the HRM, but you may have discovered the fact that the transition from aerobic to anaerobic is not a nice straight line, but sort of a lagging jump. And, in a race / fast group you can put out higher numbers than solo.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Not sure I understand the question, but if you can hold a steady 170-175 while in control of your breath, 145 is definitely aerobic.

It sounds like your anaerobic work capacity (AWC) is lacking, as you don't have much of it. Have you ever done 60s intervals?


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## daxiang28 (Sep 5, 2006)

Thanks for the tips guys... or trying to understand my question. I guess I'm trying to toss around a bunch of different theories in my head as to why I was suffering on lap 1 and then felt strong on lap 2. I was definitely working harder in lap 2 since I got dropped by the lead pack and was working with a smaller one. 175 felt like death on lap 1 and 175 felt good on lap 2. Was I not warmed up enough? Should I be working harder leading into hill efforts? Or do I just flat out need to do more interval training. 

To answer iliveonnitro's question, the only interval training I've done is 12 seconds on, 1 minute off x 6. I guess that helps more for crit style efforts. Can you elaborate on the 60s intervals?

Thanks for trying to help.

Steve


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Yeah, you definitely need some different intervals. Sounds like recovery may be part of the problem. When you do 12s on, 1 min off, you're probably nearly recovered in time for the next one. 

Try doing 1 min on, 1 min off for a few sets. And also (maybe a different workout) do Tabata intervals - 20sec on, 10 sec off. Ohhhh yeaaaaaah. 

There are lots and lots of different variations of intervals going from 5 seconds to 20 minutes or more; but basically you're working different effort/time frames vs recovery times. A full training program uses all of these, at various times.

/edit. Oh yeah, Nitro's too professional to say it, but a coach can really help with this, especially in-person. A small investment will really shorten your learning curve.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

daxiang28 said:


> The problem I'm noticing is that I'm not aerobic at 145 and when I hit that hill, my heart rate rises and I can't get it to come down. My theory is that it's the 2-3 zone hole b/c, come second lap, after powering through some sprints right before that very same hill and starting it at 160, I can power through that hill climb and even attack at the top. During the hill climb, I'm in control of my breath and stay steady at 170-175.


I wonder if when you hit the hill on the first lap at an easy pace, your aerobic system is not fully engaged and so when you go hard at the start of the climb, you rely on more anaerobic metabolism than normal and start accumulating O2 deficit from which you can't recover. On the second lap, with a harder (though still aerobic) pace, the aerobic system is fully engaged and so more of the power on the climb is generated through aerobic metabolism leading to a lower O2 deficit.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

daxiang28 said:


> Thanks for the tips guys... or trying to understand my question. I guess I'm trying to toss around a bunch of different theories in my head as to why I was suffering on lap 1 and then felt strong on lap 2. I was definitely working harder in lap 2 since I got dropped by the lead pack and was working with a smaller one. 175 felt like death on lap 1 and 175 felt good on lap 2. Was I not warmed up enough? Should I be working harder leading into hill efforts? Or do I just flat out need to do more interval training.
> 
> To answer iliveonnitro's question, the only interval training I've done is 12 seconds on, 1 minute off x 6. I guess that helps more for crit style efforts. Can you elaborate on the 60s intervals?
> 
> ...


You need a better/longer warm up, and less time to cool down before the start of the race. You probably needed the first lap to get the blood flowing in the legs again.

You need to start doing anaerobic intervals. 60s on/3min off. Microintervals are good, too. 15s on/15s off.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> You need a better/longer warm up, and less time to cool down before the start of the race. You probably needed the first lap to get the blood flowing in the legs again.
> 
> You need to start doing anaerobic intervals. 60s on/3min off. Microintervals are good, too. 15s on/15s off.


Actually he would be far better off working on improvements in his sustainable aerobic power. As would 99+% of the riding population.

The better your aerobic fitness, the less likely you need to draw upon anaerobic energy systems, when you do you don't go so deep into O2 deficit and when you ease back, you recover that O2 deficit far more quickly and can do so at a higher power.

60 secs on 180 off sounds like it would be primarily a (pretty poor) aerobic workout to me once you get past the first couple of efforts.

15/15 would be aerobic with a neuromuscular twist depending on how long you plan to ride like that.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

daxiang28 said:


> So I'm just getting into heart rate training and feeling out my zones. I've come to realize that i have a big gaping hole where zone 2-3 exists. I have traditionally done a lot of hill training and higher intensity stuff and am really starting to notice it in races where I'll be in a pack at about 140-145 and then running into a hill where it will elevate to about 165-170 and can't get it down or control my breath.
> 
> The problem I'm noticing is that I'm not aerobic at 145 and when I hit that hill, my heart rate rises and I can't get it to come down. My theory is that it's the 2-3 zone hole b/c, come second lap, after powering through some sprints right before that very same hill and starting it at 160, I can power through that hill climb and even attack at the top. During the hill climb, I'm in control of my breath and stay steady at 170-175.
> 
> ...


You are trying to interpret things from heart rate that you simply can't do.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Actually he would be far better off working on improvements in his sustainable aerobic power. As would 99+% of the riding population.
> 
> The better your aerobic fitness, the less likely you need to draw upon anaerobic energy systems, when you do you don't go so deep into O2 deficit and when you ease back, you recover that O2 deficit far more quickly and can do so at a higher power.
> 
> ...


60s on in anaerobic. Have you read Charles Howe's article on training by power? He gives some good reasons why 60s is a better alternative to an anaerobic workout. Also, the microintervals are Coggan's idea from maybe 5 years ago, or so. Yes there is a neuromuscular and anaerobic component, with the idea being the end result resembles an L4 "interval."


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> 60s on in anaerobic.


?
The longer a maximal effort, the more energy contribution comes from aerobic sources.



iliveonnitro said:


> Have you read Charles Howe's article on training by power?


Yes. 



iliveonnitro said:


> He gives some good reasons why 60s is a better alternative to an anaerobic workout.


Where? He makes no mention of the duration of intervals for developing Anaerobic Work Capacity.



iliveonnitro said:


> Also, the microintervals are Coggan's idea from maybe 5 years ago, or so. Yes there is a neuromuscular and anaerobic component, with the idea being the end result resembles an L4 "interval."


Yes I am aware of the micro intervals as described by Andy Coggan. Which is exactly as I descibed it. Aerobic with an NMP twist.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

iliveonnitro said:


> Also, the microintervals are Coggan's idea from maybe 5 years ago, or so.


Peter Keen was using them with Chris Boardman as early as 1996 and other may have been doing it even earlier. Andy Coggan has written about microintervals but never claimed to have come up with the idea.


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## gonzaleziam (May 14, 2007)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> You are trying to interpret things from heart rate that you simply can't do.



I have to agree with Alex.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> I was definitely working harder in lap 2 since I got dropped by the lead pack and was working with a smaller one. 175 felt like death on lap 1 and 175 felt good on lap 2.


you may be right about working harder lap 1; you may not be. maybe lap 1 demanded more of you than you think, and you wamed up enough for HR to catch up to your work expenditure. It happens.
I totally agree that it's an aerobic engine issue. You were redlining when remaining in the pack required you to be more comfortable and aerobic.
I have found it much more useful to think in terms of duration of effort than whether I am aerobic or anaerobic. Training 10, fifteen, twenty minute efforts will serve you well, although these are efforts that are very difficult to train in group ride situations, unless you are willing -- and your compadres are willing to let you -- hit the front and stay there for that length of effort. 
Do sets of two or three of these once a week and you'll be an animal.


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## daxiang28 (Sep 5, 2006)

Thanks for the tips guys. Sounds like I'm going to need to work my aerobic base. Alex, you mentioned 15/15. Can you elaborate?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

daxiang28 said:


> Thanks for the tips guys. Sounds like I'm going to need to work my aerobic base. Alex, you mentioned 15/15. Can you elaborate?


erm, yeah. Here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/

and here (although some of my ideas have matured in the past year):
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=100726


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