# Bad taste design in cycling



## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

Why do cycling as a sport; manufacturers (correction: brands) and cyclists, persist on embracing bad taste designs? 

Clown-like costumes and cheap Japanese street car design seems to be the norm. 
Logo-mania is the trendsetting style genre.

Off course the question of style is subjective, and therefore the headline is controversial, but it is still interesting to hear peoples opinion, although it is impossible to conclude. 

I do like F1 motorsport, but if I were to spend my money on a Ferrari I’d prefer there were no Marlboro logos down the side of it. Actually; I’d prefer no logos at all, other than the 7 discrete horses; one in each wheel centre, one in the interior steering wheel, one in the front grill and one in the rear. 
This seems not to be the case in the world of cycling. Why?

As a notorious narcissist and dedicated patriot of great looks, I tend to like the raw beauty of undisguised material, being wood, stone, metal, fibres leather etc. I believe true beauty is defined by timelessness, which I believe depends on the factors: function/performance, rationality and recognizable shape. 

The Coca Cola bottle was launched in 1915. The bottle is designed for good grip and to be easily recognizable, even by blind people. It is supposedly so that the bottle is more iconic than the logo. 

Anyway; I was inspired to start this discussion on bicycle aesthetics, as I have bought myself one of the most beautiful bicycle frames that I have seen. 
It is a plain black OEM frame that has been so widely debated on the net. 
This will be my second OEM bike, and I must say that the performance and finish of my first bike is impeccable. My first was raw carbon clear coated, which I still find to be beautiful, simply because of the properties that carbon fibre stands for, regardless of it being “old news”. These looks were mocked by several members of the forum, as I followed the thread. Pinarellos were mentioned as an example of beautiful bike design, and I found that to be funny, as I do think they are hideous; 
-The curves of the rear triangle and forks may contribute with some level of aerodynamics, but had they been applied to a sports car; people would laugh at it. 
-The multicolour designs and stripes does not relate to the shape of their frames at all. It seems random, and do not make the bike look neither exclusive nor fast. 

An example of good design in my mind is the Ferrari 250 GT SWB. In profile; the car simply looks like it is running at 260kmh even when it is parked. 
There is a saying in aviation circuits; if it looks like it flies fast; it flies fast.

To make my point I made a collage. Catch my drift?


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

You're either a notorious narcissist, your words, or pompous ass, my words. I find myself undecided. 

Is this for real? He has a Nov, 2010 join date and 2 posts. Sounds like a troll to me.


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## BernyMac (Jul 13, 2010)

You pervasive use of the "I" and "myself" do point to your admitted narcissism  However, being who you are, I doubt you will be able to grasp the concept of the world not revolving around you and your taste in design(admittedly, I agree with your simple-elegance-in-design taste). It is about making money and providing for the niche in whatever market they can sell. Hence, the differences in everything. It is not about you.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

This is timly; I just posted on this topic today in a different thread

There are only two things that are really ugly in cycling

1 - a bike that does not get used
2 - a bike or component that is unsafe

any bike that is ridden and enjoyed safely is beautiful


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

Narcissist though he may be, I've also wondered the same thing about logos.

You'd think that the more a bike cost, the more discrete the logos would be.

My custom was ordered without any logos, just a head tube badge. The logos on most of the other components came off nicely with steel wool.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Even back in the 80's the frame manufacturer had many tubes ID'd. With the way design depts are for easy spotting, it is the progression. As done, if the logos are distracting buy a generic frame or paint it.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

buck-50 said:


> Narcissist though he may be, I've also wondered the same thing about logos.
> 
> You'd think that the more a bike cost, the more discrete the logos would be.
> 
> My custom was ordered without any logos, just a head tube badge. The logos on most of the other components came off nicely with steel wool.



Some people really like the naked look
we even have one bike we call THE STRIPPER and it sells great
we also do a look with few to no decals

but some people love logos and art
I have seen bikes with brand on them over 100 times

as long as it is riden safely; you bike looks great
especially while you are ridding it


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

Cried at birth;
I agree, somewhat. There are bikes that are simple, minimalist; there are also bikes that have big logos and lots of paint, that look good. So take your pick; otherwise all bikes would look the same... BORING!!!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Style never goes out of style, though.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

robpar said:


> Cried at birth;
> I agree, somewhat. There are bikes that are simple, minimalist; there are also bikes that have big logos and lots of paint, that look good. So take your pick; otherwise all bikes would look the same... BORING!!!



SO RIGHT
if all bikes looked a like it would be boring

we do requests sometimes based on customer ideas
this one blows me away http://bikesdirect.com/products/mercier/images/raw_gallery/
not only no decals; but steel frame raw with no paint
just full unpainted 4130 tubes

and guess what?
sells like mad and buyers love it


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## Bacana (Aug 13, 2010)

TLDT. But if you're saying left good, right bad, sure. I agree. I like unfinished titanium and matte-black carbon.

Soul Bikes is a small company, but they do a nice job (okay, great job) with design: http://bikesoul.com/2009/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=38

IMVHO, of course.


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## asherstash1 (May 16, 2010)

i happen to dislike the pinnarellos with straight TT's as well, but seriously, uneccessary curves scorned in the auto industry? are you serious?


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## draganM (Nov 27, 2001)

bikesdirect said:


> SO RIGHT
> if all bikes looked a like it would be boring
> we do requests sometimes based on customer ideas
> this one blows me away http://bikesdirect.com/products/mercier/images/raw_gallery/
> ...


 I remember back when Rust was the enemy of everything metal, now it's in vogue? Raw steel will oxidize even in a dry room eventually.


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## draganM (Nov 27, 2001)

cried at birth said:


> To make my point I made a collage. Catch my drift?


Your drifting towards an ugly frame


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

draganM said:


> Your drifting towards an ugly frame


+1.


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

Perhaps one should have taken a more humble approach; being the first post on the forum, but then again; controversy is far more fun. 

Bicycles and components is big industry. The precision put in to parts is second to very few other industries. Car parts are not made with the same precision or exotic choice of materials, except some strategic ones here and there. Imagine the cost of cars otherwise.

Materialism is the cradle of our civilization. If we do not buy things, the wheels stop turning. The money put in to bicycles is out of proportions sometimes, so I do not think it is strange to discuss the looks of things. 

It would be fantastic to know the answer to why Georg Jensen can charge 20 times the price of a normal smoke detector alarm simply just because it looks nice. Finding the key would be like winning the lottery.

A very large profession is dedicated to this, mine inclusive. Therefore I think it is interest ing to hear peoples opinions. I did not mean to offend anyone. 

It is interesing that parameters in cycling is somewhat different; I have a Z vetements enfants shirt from the time Greg LeMond was at his best. What is it that makes this shirt cool on a soon to be middle aged man like me, because I do like it...


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## lemonlime (Sep 24, 2003)

I think the best point was made in your third paragraph. The question of style is absolutely subjective. 

I *tend* to agree with you in that the minimalist look is more appealing to me. I think most Colnago paint jobs are way over the top, and the curves on Pinarellos is hideous.

But I'm awfully glad they're out there. For one, it's nice to see variety, even if I have no desire for that version of it. And two, it makes my bikes look better.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

cried at birth,

Taste is subjective so you probably knew where your post was going to go.  I rather prefer flash and colors on a bike. And I insist on flash and colors on anything I wear on the road in the hope that drivers see me from a mile away.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I like classic, understated paint on bicycles. The new Raleigh steel bikes are good examples. I also like Colnago paint jobs from the late 90s/early 00s ("Geo" was my favourite). What I can't stand is boring. Plain carbon is boring. It also screams "Cheap bike from China!" I don't care if it's a Parlee or a Crumpton; if it's naked carbon, it just looks cheap to me.

I guess it's because I am into the "romance" of cycling rather than the numbers and mechanics of it. The name Pinarello still excites me, even if the bikes no longer do. A 1970s Pinarello will make me drool. A Hong Fu will make me vomit. I don't care about dollar-to-performance ratios. I also think good graphics enhance the lines of a bike, rather than distract from them. Unfortunately, good graphics are getting harder and harder to find.

This is all just my opinion, so if you're offended, that's your own problem.


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## MrPerkles (Sep 4, 2010)

kbwh said:


> Style never goes out of style, though.


I love the mdern stuff but the above makes me go all wobbly


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

cried at birth said:


> I’d prefer no logos at all, other than the *9-10* discrete horses; one in each wheel center, one in the interior steering wheel, one in the front grill, one *or two on the rear (the horse and Ferrari written out)* in the rear, *and one on each front fender*.


Fixed it for you. That is a lot of badges for one whip.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

QuattroCreep said:


> Fixed it for you. That is a lot of badges for one whip.


Let's not forget a badge on the center cap of each wheel....


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

bikesdirect said:


> This is timly; I just posted on this topic today in a different thread
> 
> There are only two things that are really ugly in cycling
> 
> ...


+1........


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> I like classic, understated paint on bicycles. The new Raleigh steel bikes are good examples. I also like Colnago paint jobs from the late 90s/early 00s ("Geo" was my favourite). What I can't stand is boring. Plain carbon is boring.


I couldn't agree more. Plain carbon looks like.... well, PLASTIC!


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Totally agree, cycling fashion and design have gone the way of NASCAR. Give me understated unis, simple paint jobs with minimal logo placement, and I'll be a happy camper. One of the reasons I have the bike I do is its complete lack of a paint job showing the mechanical interlock between carbon and aluminum. I'm not a huge fan of woven carbon, especially the coarser weaves (e.g. 12k) but there is something about unidirectional carbon that I like - maybe it's how it looks like black paint until the sun catches it just right. Anyway, with prominent logo placement all around us on nearly every consumer product, I don't see this going the other way any time soon... It's kind of like how we now notice when people on TV or movies are drinking soda that ISN'T a big brand name. We've been desensitized somewhat...


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I like classic, understated paint on bicycles. The new Raleigh steel bikes are good examples. I also like Colnago paint jobs from the late 90s/early 00s ("Geo" was my favourite). What I can't stand is boring. Plain carbon is boring. It also screams "Cheap bike from China!" I don't care if it's a Parlee or a Crumpton; if it's naked carbon, it just looks cheap to me.
> 
> I guess it's because I am into the "romance" of cycling rather than the numbers and mechanics of it. The name Pinarello still excites me, even if the bikes no longer do. A 1970s Pinarello will make me drool. A Hong Fu will make me vomit. I don't care about dollar-to-performance ratios. I also think good graphics enhance the lines of a bike, rather than distract from them. Unfortunately, good graphics are getting harder and harder to find.
> 
> This is all just my opinion, so if you're offended, that's your own problem.


Good points!

History is an important factor in brand storytelling. History is something that evolution cannot take away. Would you not agree that the logos placed on bicycles largely represent the credibility of history and associations related to it? 

Do you not think that plain carbon looks cheap simply because it, well... is cheap? 

As I work professionally with carbon helmets, I do know a little about carbon technology. Because the bicycle technology centre in large has moved to Taiwan; the know-how acquired has encouraged entrepreneurs to start up their own businesses. 

It is the cost structure of the western world that has allowed this to happen. As the technology advantages disappear, we will see more and more of this also in other businesses, unfortunately. 

All factors taken in consideration; what drives us to pay the extra money for the logo?


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

cried at birth said:


> All factors taken in consideration; what drives us to pay the extra money for the logo?


Again, some of us pay extra for no logo.


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## asherstash1 (May 16, 2010)

"Bicycles and components is big industry. The precision put in to parts is second to very few other industries. Car parts are not made with the same precision or exotic choice of materials, except some strategic ones here and there. Imagine the cost of cars otherwise"

i think you are losing sight of relative pricing, most of the CF superbikes hell even the "mid-range" bikes are in reality premium products, a £200 bike will get you from a to b just as a £1200 one will just like a ford will get from a to b just as the ferrari will, so... just as expensive luxuries like leather, walnut, CF, magnesium, titanium etc etc are found all over premium cars along with the unecessary curves we mentioned, so they are on bikes! just many people can afford a £1000+ bike but not a £50000+ car doesnt mean they arent still premium products and therefore will be subject to design flourishes, indulgent upgrading of materials (to mere mortals a 50g saving meaningless etc) and micron exact manufacturing processes. coz its a premium product middle aged men CAN afford


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## Gee3 (Jan 31, 2006)

cried at birth said:


> All factors taken in consideration; what drives us to pay the extra money for the logo?


Perceived value, perceived craftsmanship and brand history is why many pay for the logo. 

And back to your original topic, bad taste in design: it's all about brand recognition whether it be a wavy fork of a Pinarello, the gawdy celeste of a Bianchi, or the stigma of an allegedly doped up 7 time Tour winner for Trek. You may not care for the brand or you may love it. But heck if you don't know what it is when you see it! And that's what they want.


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

Gee3 said:


> Perceived value, perceived craftsmanship and brand history is why many pay for the logo.
> 
> And back to your original topic, bad taste in design: it's all about brand recognition whether it be a wavy fork of a Pinarello, the gawdy celeste of a Bianchi, or the stigma of an allegedly doped up 7 time Tour winner for Trek. You may not care for the brand or you may love it. But heck if you don't know what it is when you see it! And that's what they want.


Well said!


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

asherstash1 said:


> i happen to dislike the pinnarellos with straight TT's as well, but seriously, uneccessary curves scorned in the auto industry? are you serious?


Well...yes. 

I am not saying bad lines or curves does not exist in car industry, but they rarely become a success. 

What is interesting is that the most hailed car designs in general feature completed lines and single curves; quite stringent, conventional and graphically in balance. 

Cars are the single most interesting consumer product because it is the most important, advanced and expensive one. People spend a lot of money on cars, only second to their homes. Successful design is more important than with any other product. Brands represents a certain "value" or "personality". Cars evokes emotions in most people.

Volvo is the safe car, BMW is the best driving experience, Mercedes is the best engineered car, Toyota is the most reliable etc...

Therefore brand identity is sometimes more important than design. The negative and "sloppy" curved bottom line on BMW 1 series has been much debated, but the car is a success because it is an exciting small car, and it is a BMW... 

As mentioned previously in the thread; the curved fork of Pinarello probably offers brand recognition...

There are no cheaper options that offer the same properties. The technology advantage is still in Japan, Europe and arguably US ;-)

Below are some pictures to exemplify: (I hope you figure out which ones are less fortunate and which are rather nice)


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

terbennett said:


> I couldn't agree more. Plain carbon looks like.... well, PLASTIC!


Would you say the same in below cases;

Schmolke
THM
AX lightness
EDGE/ENVE
Storck Powerarms
Carbon-Ti
Campagnolo

?


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> SO RIGHT
> if all bikes looked a like it would be boring
> 
> we do requests sometimes based on customer ideas
> ...


Looks really, really cool. 
Love it!


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

bikesdirect said:


> This is timly; I just posted on this topic today in a different thread
> 
> There are only two things that are really ugly in cycling
> 
> ...


In principe I do not disagree at all, but if it is that simple, I find it difficult to explain why people spend so much of their income on the gear. 

I do not find it strange that people spend a lot of their resources; time and money, on their favorite hobby. 

A huge industry evolves around it.


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## cparrish (Jun 21, 2010)

Really I think the issue is with us. Most riders who drop 8k on a bike want to be recognized for it by everyday people not just the rare bike guy who knows the name of a storied Italian frame builder.

I'm going to bet that there is a similar ratio of naked carbon vs red stripey dogma's out there compared to flat black debadged vs red ferrari's. If you are looking for connoisseurs of design aesthetics your going to have to look beyond magazine ads just as you would with cars because they are certainly there.


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## RiceKilla (Sep 16, 2009)

draganM said:


> Your drifting towards an ugly frame


Any idea which frame is this?










Looks almost like a bare madone.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

The good looking cars in cried at birth's post:

Skoda
Citroën
Alfa Romeo
Ferrari


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## abarth (Aug 12, 2008)

cried at birth said:


> An example of good design in my mind is the Ferrari 250 GTO SWB.


Your example of good design does not exist in the world. I love the Ferrari 250 GTO and I love the 250 GT SWB even more, but a Ferrari 250 GTO SWB, sorry no such thing.


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

abarth said:


> Your example of good design does not exist in the world. I love the Ferrari 250 GTO and I love the 250 GT SWB even more, but a Ferrari 250 GTO SWB, sorry no such thing.


You are absolutely right, the "typo" is now corrected. Proved to the record that it once was there...  

Alexander.


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

Pretty tough crowds... from both camps, it seems. 

Why can't we be a bit more tolerant and open-minded when it comes to fashion and taste? 

Secretly we all want to think we have better taste than the guy next to us, but, taste is such a subjective thing. I happen to think Pinarellos are very nicely engineered bikes (if you disregard the weight). If you do a google search, you will also find many people saying Megan Fox is ugly. 

The Tango, and some of the bad Pinarello knockoffs, on the other hand, are hideous. Curves are not bad, good curves are good. 

Finally, I just want to add that "loud" is not automatically "bad taste". A subdued Parlee can be beautiful, but that doesn't make a Caisse Team Dogma ugly.


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## asherstash1 (May 16, 2010)

i think its correct with the brand recognition thing, lambos like the countach were a riot of wilful design extravagances but gave them that unique exotic exclusivity that ensured them everlasting cachet, they're now able to make quite subtle(ish) cars again. but pina already had that so go figure, i love my knock-off


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

cried at birth said:


> Brands represents a certain "value" or "personality" - subjective statement. Cars evokes emotions in most people. - I'll say some people, not most people
> 
> Volvo is the safe car - I think many cars are just as safe these days., BMW is the best driving experience - I agree here, Mercedes is the best engineered car - I'm not sure about that, especially after it was sold to Chrysler, Toyota is the most reliable etc - I've driven Toyota for many years, and I think the competition has closed the gap in recent years....
> 
> ...


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

The opening of the thread was meant as a controversial starter. 
Yes, it did obviously provoke some people. 

I am interested in why bicycle industrial design seems to work with a different set of parameters than most other businesses.

I am not talking loud or subtle... Loud can for sure be good, but bikes seems mostly like a different kind of loud...


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Good design is obviously in the eye of the beholder. Ferrari for all their "branding" can only make money by selling of that brand to be slapped on cookie cutter boxer pants, ties and coffee mugs. That is in fact why they were the most profitable car company after the financial meltdown of 2008. Perhaps bikes went loud cause in the end bike buyers choose their rides by geometry and characteristics, aesthetics comes second. They also have less invested in the model than a car buyer and typically change models quite often.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

serious said:


> cried at birth,
> 
> Taste is subjective so you probably knew where your post was going to go.  I rather prefer flash and colors on a bike. And I insist on flash and colors on anything I wear on the road in the hope that drivers see me from a mile away.



Against the advise of many; I always order lots of bikes in Yellow and Orange
as I think having these 'safety' colors as an option is important
Not everyone wants a Yellow or Orange bike; but some certainly do


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

terbennett said:


> I couldn't agree more. Plain carbon looks like.... well, PLASTIC!


It is plastic, albeit very expensive plastic.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

bikesdirect: *Against the advise of many; I always order lots of bikes in Yellow and Orange*

That is definitely the right thing to do. Covering all tastes just makes sense. 

PlatyPius: *I guess it's because I am into the "romance" of cycling rather than the numbers and mechanics of it.*

There is nothing wrong with this position. On the other hand, I am all about performance and quality. Colors and labels are a distant second and if the price is right and the bike fits, colors and labels are completely inconsequential.


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

cpark said:


> Mercedes is the best engineered car - I'm not sure about that, especially after it was sold to Chrysler, .


Huh? You totally missed the point, plus you have a lot of things backwards, but this one especially. Chrysler was sold to Daimler-Benz, not the other way around. But it's now owned primarily by Fiat and Cerberus Capital Management (and a big loan from the U.S. government).


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## BadHabit (Mar 7, 2005)

As an apostate graphic designer from the era when the concept of corporate identity was developed, I have a lot to say about this.

"Taste is subjective" (and lax zoning) explains the preponderance of visual garbage in America. We grow up in crap and we tolerate it. [Insert Mencken quote here].

There is no easier and more effective way to drag visual appreciation down than to introduce careless graphics (I include the word careless to allow for the work of design masters).


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

BadHabit: *There is no easier and more effective way to drag visual appreciation down than to introduce careless graphics *

But as long as "taste is subjective" the words "careless graphics" are meaningless.  And let's not forget that a Trek bike has to scream TREK BIKE for the sake of business, not the sake of art.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

The current graphics trend is just that - a trend. It will wane, just like every other fashion. We used to wear clothes that were just as full of huge lettering in the'80s, now we don't as much. The logos will hit critical mass and subside.

Of course, the popularity of molded carbon's indestinct curves and constantly shifting forms makes it harder than it used to be to recognize a brand without a logo. I was at an LBS the other day and noticed that Felt had a bunch of carbon frames that didn't even look like they were from the same company. That's a problem. The days of the straight fork identifying your Colnago are over - bike brands no longer have the familial design features like BMW's distinctive grill.

The OPs bike is totally unidentifiable. A dozen people could guess and all be wrong. That is not good for a bike maker to have a product no one can ID. Bare Ti frames are popular, but there are so few good brands that even the details give them away. This isn't true with the sea of CF.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I'll take the bottom right*



cried at birth said:


> Well...yes.
> 
> I am not saying bad lines or curves does not exist in car industry, but they rarely become a success.
> 
> ...


and my guess it, it costs more than the rest combined

mmmmm SWB


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*actually*



cs1 said:


> It is plastic, albeit very marked up plastic.



FIFY .....


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I wouldnt pay more for a bike with or without stickers. I just want to ride it. I suppose its a good topic for sitting on your couch on the internet..


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

*Important or not*



TomH said:


> I wouldnt pay more for a bike with or without stickers. I just want to ride it. I suppose its a good topic for sitting on your couch on the internet..


Hmm... some people always pull out this card. If you don't care about the topic, then why reply or comment on it at all?. 

Being concerned about the gear does not automatically mean that one do not enjoy to ride, like some people prefer to believe.

Designing, engineering and producing bicycles and equipment there for, is the profession of probably millions of people. Why patronize their work? Making things look good so that one would consciously or unconsciously, make the decision to buy, is part of the process. Seems ever more important to all brands too...

Vanity? ; Yes, probably... Why not?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

The logos and design you dislike are driven more by economics than aesthetics.

Pro race bikes, kits, etc. are crammed full of logos so sponsors names can be advertised on TV. They are crafted to stand out.

Bike manufacturers assume that customers want to buy/ride/be seen on versions of those same bikes, kits, etc.

So, the bikes, kits, etc. you find incorporate those same designs.

Apparently, it works.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

ricekilla said:


> any idea which frame is this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


fm028


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

Well cried at birth, there are lots of beautifull bikes and while I do agree with some of your observations, some labels and logos are quite attractive. As the girls say a little paint can make the old barn look good. That old aviation adage is actually, "if it looks good, it will fly good.' I like the looks of bare aluminum and given an aviation background, I wasn't particularly fond of carbon fiber. I have changed my mind, and as the engineers say form follows function, in other words if its well designed for function it will look the part.
I will add, the old batmobile is way better than the new ugly bat mobile! Just sayin.


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

Form follows Function ... think about it :thumbsup:


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

oldcannondale said:


> I will add, the old batmobile is way better than the new ugly bat mobile! Just sayin.


As Adam West was the best Batman.


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

*old batmobile better*

That goes without saying. I can still remember the old black and white TV fading in and out as I attempted to watch Batman, and Lost in Space! Kind of reminds me of out current Pres and Associattes! Only all the cool factor is gone and all we're left with is the dumb dork factor.:mad2:


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I totally understand that everyone has their own taste and sense of aesthetics, but

Damn, over logo'd clownish bike frames, shorts and jerseys just look ridiculous and make cyclists as a group seem wierd to the general public. Do you see recreational (as opposed to professional) runners, hikers, swimmers, skiers - or any other sport - do their thing with totally clownish, logo-festooned clothing like their professional counterparts? Sure we all wear clothes with the logo of the company that makes the clothes in our other activities, but many cyclists are just over the top on this stuff. It's just dumb and ugly.

I wear cycling clothing that has theme patterns, or manufacturer's logos, but not sponsorship logos. Why anyone thinks it's cool to wear multiple logos for professional team sponsors that they don't receive any benefit from is way beyond me.

Cyclists who think this crap looks good are just tasteless and/or clueless.

Of course, that's just my opinion, one of many in this big wide world, with many who disagree, but it's the best opinion I know of.


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## aerosigma (Sep 9, 2011)

Camilo said:


> Damn, over logo'd clownish bike frames, shorts and jerseys just look ridiculous and make cyclists as a group seem wierd to the general public.


I don't think it's the logos as much as the spandex that makes us look funny.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

aerosigma said:


> I don't think it's the logos as much as the spandex that makes us look funny.


Some of us, anyway.


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## 60driver (Apr 26, 2011)

yea i would say he sums it all up . . . form follows function . . .romance of cycling . . . and especially careless graphics


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Sorry to the owner of this bike, but it's been logo'd to death.
It would be a good looking bike with all the busy logos and graphics removed.


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## 8toes (Feb 28, 2010)

:Yawn:


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

cried at birth said:


> Well...yes.
> 
> I am not saying bad lines or curves does not exist in car industry, but they rarely become a success.
> 
> ...


+1... As someone with a degree in Transportation Design with a lot of experience working in the Automotive Design field, I can attest to this.


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## Rk37 (Sep 15, 2011)

i concur, but i will add, what's with weight weenies as well... seriously, take a dump before riding and boom you upgraded your 105 to dura ace...alright wheels are a different story, but shifters / cranks... who cares if you shave 200grams... shave your back hair and you have that savings...


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

People buy what they like. Some think black is boring. Some love that stealth look. 

I go for function first, then looks.


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## aerosigma (Sep 9, 2011)

Rk37 said:


> what's with weight weenies as well... but shifters / cranks... who cares if you shave 200grams...


Ha! On one hand, I agree, it won't make any difference on your commute or weekend ride.

However, This is our hobby, and, as with any hobby, gear plays a large part in enjoyment; it's a way to work on, and think about the hobby when you can't actually be participating. Weight is an easy metric for us to judge our gear by, and provides a simple way to grade lust-worthiness. It's not about being a weenie if it's too heavy, it's about being excited if it's too light.


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## mcr23 (Sep 12, 2011)

the dogma is a sexy bike IMO. As well as the S5.


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## Andy69 (Jun 14, 2008)

what do you have against Arne Jacobsen?


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## M-theory (Jul 16, 2009)

I've read through the entire thread and I don't think anyone really addressed the OP. Why IS cycling such a visually hideous sport? And no, the anwer is not simply that aesthetics are subjective. In reality, they are not. 

The logo-covered bikes appeal to the immaturity that resides within us. Dumbing us down and furthering the degradation of the human spirit. Its a clear example of the expression which explains the entire phenomenon as 'the infantilization of society'. The more foolish and infantile the consumer, the more he/she will be willing to spend on absolute nonsense. THAT is why all the bike companies across the board have the most hideous array of obnoxious and childish graphics. 

I also believe that the compact geometry was another intentionally ugly design point that has utlimately cheapened the sport.

In short, cycling has become a sport for the 'foolish'. The bike manufacturers know this. Dropping $8K on a bike should be a source of shame, not pride. But the bike manufacturers have managed to convince the cycling enthusiast otherwise.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Getting back to the OP...Some of the manufacturing hype surrounding that particular open mold frame was that H.R. Geiger was asked to consult on the graphics (woooo, right?). Of course, that could mean as much or as little as an unanswered email, but the graphics were very much inspired by the late 1980's.


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## fightcity (Oct 16, 2010)

I personally don't like the look of overly logo'd bikes and cycling apparel. Some people like it so they buy it, nothing wrong with that. I just recently got into cycling as an outsider looking in I always wondered by cyclists wore stuff with so many logos. It looked to me like NASCAR on two wheels. You can still find some beautiful stuff if you look for it. For example has there ever been a more beautiful jersey than this one? Icebreaker Cadence Jersey - Short-Sleeve - Men's from Realcyclist.com


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

fightcity said:


> I personally don't like the look of overly logo'd bikes and cycling apparel. Some people like it so they buy it, nothing wrong with that. I just recently got into cycling as an outsider looking in I always wondered by cyclists wore stuff with so many logos. It looked to me like NASCAR on two wheels. You can still find some beautiful stuff if you look for it. For example has there ever been a more beautiful jersey than this one? Icebreaker Cadence Jersey - Short-Sleeve - Men's from


yeah rolling billboard status has limited appeal for me. but, sometimes too many solid colors is a little boring too. 

i really like "throwback" jerseys from a bygone era in cycling. i know rapha is as much about image as replica kits, but i really appreciate their understated look. now, if only it didn't cost a fortune to wear.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

This is also being discussed in the "Best Looking Bikes" thread.

It is surprising that so little thought goes into team jerseys regarding design and recognition. Some teams are easy to recognise with their big, clear logos, like "Sky" or "BMC" . But who would recognise the "Katusha" team? It's a horrible mess. Lots of others are just as bad. Weird typefaces, or logos that wrap around the rider so they cannot be seen properly.
With so much money at stake it should be done properly. 
Retro jerseys are way better. Bianchi, instantly recognisable, one color, large clear letters. Brooklyn, maybe the greatest jersey ever, clear black letters on a white background. Even from a distance or on TV and you know who they are.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> People buy what they like.


What if you want a specific frame but it only comes in an over-logoed version that looks like a newspaper pullout on wheels?


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> This is also being discussed in the "Best Looking Bikes" thread.
> 
> It is surprising that so little thought goes into team jerseys regarding design and recognition. Some teams are easy to recognise with their big, clear logos, like "Sky" or "BMC" . But who would recognise the "Katusha" team? It's a horrible mess. Lots of others are just as bad. Weird typefaces, or logos that wrap around the rider so they cannot be seen properly.
> With so much money at stake it should be done properly.
> Retro jerseys are way better. Bianchi, instantly recognisable, one color, large clear letters. Brooklyn, maybe the greatest jersey ever, clear black letters on a white background. Even from a distance or on TV and you know who they are.


from a design perspective, i think sky and leopard trek have the best looking jerseys in modern cycling. primarily because they're simple. i kinda like the garmin argyle, and the movistar livery is a classic in many different sorts of racing (motorcycle primarily)--but if i had to buy a team replica jersey, the simpler the better. and i agree, they don't make em like they used to.

compare









to


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

Andy69 said:


> what do you have against Arne Jacobsen?


Nothing; it is pointed out as a good example of timeless industrial design composed mostly of completed lines that nature once created; the egg. In comparison to the multicolored sofa.


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

The Mondrian inspired La Vie Claire jersey wouldn't look out of place today, almost thirty years after their total domination of the mid '80s:


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

I would love to own that jersey, especially if it was made in merino wool.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

Bremerradkurier said:


> The Mondrian inspired La Vie Claire jersey wouldn't look out of place today, almost thirty years after their total domination of the mid '80s:


Sort of screams "I ride for Team Partridge Family!" no?


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## terrapin4 (Aug 2, 2009)

RJP Diver said:


> Sort of screams "I ride for Team Partridge Family!" no?


i feel sorry for anyone who associates the la vie claire jersey with a crummy 70's sitcom and not minimalist modern art.


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## CrimeWave (Nov 7, 2010)

I feel sorry for people who can't take a joke.....


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

Bremerradkurier said:


> The Mondrian inspired La Vie Claire jersey wouldn't look out of place today, almost thirty years after their total domination of the mid '80s:


This jersey, purchased in 1992, is still one of my favourites


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Holy crap, thread dredge!


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## mrcreosote (Sep 9, 2010)

I can understand that from a manufacturer or sponsors POV it is all about brand awareness and making your product stand out from the crowd, especially in televised sport. 

However, as a cyclist I admit to a preference to the understated look, although not at the expense of being seen on the road. Also I try to make sure any accessory on the bike does not spoil the overall look - as an example, the rear lights on my road bike are a couple of micro LED lights (the kind that have the loop of elastic to hold them on) tucked between my saddle and a Topeak Aero Wedge Pack - bright enough, but inconspicuous in that they don't ruin the overall look of the bike.

I have recently completed a build of an all black commuter based around an FM058 carbon cross frame. I had thoughts of a minimalist logo on the downtube using this font Neuropolitical Font | dafont.com but now am having second thoughts about having anything, now that it is built up.

As far as clothing goes, if I buy a knicks+jersey set, I generally think about how well the jersey will look with just plain knicks, because the jerseys tend to last longer than the knicks. And I rely on my wife to decide what looks good on me as well. But in any case, it is usually the understated design that wins over the 'look at me!!!' design


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

CrimeWave said:


> I feel sorry for people who can't take a joke.....


OK, I need to ask...

Which is the "joke"?

- "Team Partridge Family"
- "Minimalist Modern Art"

:aureola:


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## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

RJP Diver said:


> Sort of screams "I ride for Team Partridge Family!" no?


The trainwreck that is Danny Bonaduce would have fit in well in the pro peloton of the early '80s.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm partial to the venge (because I own one), but I think Specialized has been doing a good job with not over-logo'ing. A big reason for my switch to Specialized was that the Treks had been logo'd to death. I understand and like the big logos, but I don't need 5 of them on each tube.

I believe the Venge is probably the best in-class at blending form & function. It probably isn't as aero as the S5, but it looks a hell of a lot better. It certainly isn't as ugly as the foil or the madone 7. And the sloping top tube is taken down a notch or two, especially relative to the roubaix.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

There's a thread on another forum where a poster shows off his new custom bicycle, of a brand I can't remember right now. Every response gushes about its beauty. As far as I'm concerned, it is one of the most drab, boring-looking bicycles I've ever laid eyes upon. The color scheme is a glum combination of grays and charcoal. There is a distinct lack of eye-catching detail. The bicycle's proportions are ungainly, not graceful. It's anonymous and expressionless. I hope it rides well.


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## Wheelspeed (Nov 3, 2006)

In trying to show us what good taste you have, you used examples of furniture, some guy in a white suit and no socks, and a weird looking pair of shoes. Basically, we all know you're gay.

Yes, I didn't take the time out of my life to read all the nonsense inbetween, so apologies if 20 others already pointed this out.


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## calfpower (Jun 20, 2012)

I've no problem with the Fuji Absolute 3.0 I had or the Jamis Coda Comp I have now.


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

Wheelspeed said:


> In trying to show us what good taste you have, you used examples of furniture, some guy in a white suit and no socks, and a weird looking pair of shoes. Basically, we all know you're gay.
> 
> Yes, I didn't take the time out of my life to read all the nonsense inbetween, so apologies if 20 others already pointed this out.


Hey; be nice! Didn't your mother tell you that? 
I happen not to be gay, but if I were... so what? 

There is little room for prejudice in 2012. 

As I have tried to point out in the very beginning this was just a comment on the reigning astetics in bicycle industry, a very relevant issue indeed, being subject of many people's jobs. 

In a world when only a couple handfuls of the biggest brands make their own molds, this is ever more imprtant than before. 

I happen to share office with a graphic and industrial design bureau, and there are 3 people more or less full time occupied making bicycle aestetics for a relative small brand selling only in our small country, so do not tell me that this is not important to a lot of people. 

Pictures were used to illustrate a point, clearly representing my view, my view subjectively, and they were ment to invite people of different opinions to share their view too. 

Instead of commenting on the issue, most (well not most, but quite a few) people have taken the opportunity to critisize the person behind it. 
Is that a common form of conversation in the merit-orineted plutocracy over there? 
Mocking other people does not make you greater, although you might temporarily feel so.


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

Here's my $.02.

Pro bikes are heavily branded to maximize sponsor media presence. Most recreational rider dream of being pros, and want to look the part - so they are most likely to buy the one that "looks pro." manufacturers see this trend, and in a nod to the bottom line, produce more bikes that have logos everywhere. Once the trend is set, tastes are built around what the market offers.

To each their own.


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## minez01 (Mar 10, 2011)

> There's a thread on another forum where a poster shows off his new custom bicycle, of a brand I can't remember right now. Every response gushes about its beauty. As far as I'm concerned, it is one of the most drab, boring-looking bicycles I've ever laid eyes upon.


I see this all the time also - and strongly agree, some bikes are just so bland!

I'm going to put this out there, that I like both simple (/stealth) colour schemes and also the full blown logo look. Personally some simple schemes work very well, especially ones with black or white as the main colours. But on the other hand, I also like how some bikes are completely logo-laden and make no excuse for it. I think they look cool and very "racy" as opposed to the more classic simple schemes.

The one bike I always refer back to is the (2010 I think) Time Ulteam, in white. Logos everywhere, and one of the most beautiful bikes I've ever seen.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

The Pinarello wavey fork and seat stay???


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Is there any irony in the fact that the OP is discussing bad taste in design, and buys a chinese rip off frame with all dead straight tubes, making it almost as boring as a CAAD frame?


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

dcorn said:


> Is there any irony in the fact that the OP is discussing bad taste in design, and buys a chinese rip off frame with all dead straight tubes, making it almost as boring as a CAAD frame?


He he; see your point, and disagree, but that is fine. 

It is in my mind a nice and well functioning frame, mainly because it is well fitted. It is also both more responsive yet more comfortable than my previous bikes from bigger brands. 

There is one thing in what you say that represents a common misconception though; it is not a rip-off, it is an unbranded unlicensed open-mold.
...A frame that smaller local brands can buy, and so they do; then they brand them themselves. The graphic and industrial design bureau I share office space with, they design graphics for a relatively small brand that retail about 76.000 bikes a year. 
Many of their bikes are testwinners, entirely sourced from Taiwan/China like probably 90% of the rest of the bicycle world. People prefer not to know this. 

There is a 600 page catalogue called Taiwan bicycle source, from which most brands buy their stuff. Brands such as Specialized and Cannondale also buy stuff from this catalogue, and then they put their own logos on it. 

The bigger brands however do develop some molds of their own to some extent, not necessarily better than the open molds. Return rates in the bigger sports chains show this, at least in our country. 

Components mainly come from the same factories, and then brands re-brand them, which is why the design they put on them plays such a big role in this world. 
Hence the thread ;-)


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## difficult (Aug 28, 2008)

My bike features the Felt logo 36 times. I just counted. Not including partially obscured logos or other text that says "felt".

I love it!


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

cried at birth said:


> There is a 600 page catalogue called Taiwan bicycle source, from which most brands buy their stuff. Brands such as Specialized and Cannondale also buy stuff from this catalogue, and then they put their own logos on it.
> 
> The bigger brands however do develop some molds of their own to some extent, not necessarily better than the open molds. Return rates in the bigger sports chains show this, at least in our country.
> 
> ...


Right, and I'm sure all the 'engineers' at those bike companies are paid to sit at home and not talk about the bikes they aren't working on.


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## Chris Teifke (Aug 11, 2012)

Taste is all a matter of opinion, no?


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Chris Teifke said:


> Taste is all a matter of opinion, no?


Yes, taste is a matter of opinion, but that opinion becomes important when you rely on your taste to make a living.


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## CarbonFlyer (Apr 20, 2012)

I think that anything that inspires you to get up and get on the bike and just ride is fine. Style is simply a matter of taste and one size doesn't fit all. However, this thread did make me take a good look at my Giant and realize that they labeled every spot they could with Giant, Defy, or Advanced and it is a little ridiculous. But I love riding it anyway. Best graphics on any bike would be by Colnago in my opinion. those bikes are always awesome.


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## cried at birth (Nov 6, 2010)

dcorn said:


> Right, and I'm sure all the 'engineers' at those bike companies are paid to sit at home and not talk about the bikes they aren't working on.


I am not saying that there aren't any engineers working in bicycle industry in the west, I am saying that quite a lot of the engineers in bicycle industry are employed in Taiwan. 
And that rebranding open mold and generic parts from Taiwan and China are more common than you would think. 

Contrary to what you might choose to believe; your entire bike is probably not engineered or made in USA or Italy.


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## holy cromoly (Nov 9, 2008)

The aesthetics of bikes has been heavily influenced by the aggressive look of racing (colors, numerous decals, etc). That's pretty much it in a visual nutshell. Like many things, it's a phase and who knows what's next. Specialized has toned down their decals over the past year and my 2012 Crux cyclocross bike has the decals hidden on the underside of the top and down tubes.

Different strokes for different folks. For those who like minimal visuals, what some might mistaking call "tasteful" (because taste is subjective), then there are more plain looking options. 

Subtle doesn't have to expensive either. Some might think that Rapha jerseys and a De Rosa Neo Primato are the go to's for "tasteful" options, but really Nashbar bikes and Pricepoint house brand jerseys are just as subtle and make the same anti over branded statements. $20 Price Point house brand jersey looks just as subtle in plain-ness as a $160 Rapha jersey. Nashbar has some nicely spec'd house brand bikes with no labels. A sweet green cross bike for $799 and some nice SRAM road bikes for around $1300.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

cs1 said:


> You're either a notorious narcissist, your words, or pompous ass, my words. I find myself undecided.
> 
> Is this for real? He has a Nov, 2010 join date and 2 posts. Sounds like a troll to me.


Personally, for me, nothing speaks more about a bike than the paint. Colnago, in the early days, had a nice clean almost "inspired look" about them. Seems that Colnago has gone to a minimalist theme on the new c59 disc (if it ever makes it to market). To me a nice nude carbon with a few stickers thoughfully placed looks nice and not tacky.:thumbsup:


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