# 1x lacing - all elbows pointing out?



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

A guy I was riding with the other week had a 1x laced front wheel. Instead of alternating elbows in/out all of them were pointed out. 

It looks like this:








Are there any disadvantage or issues of doing it this way?

Also, in a front wheel does it matter which spoke crosses on the outside of the other? From looking at that pic on the side we are looking at the "left" spoke crosses over the right one, but if we flip the wheel around the "right" spoke would cross over the left one.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

We can see what the "experts" here say, but I recently did a 20 spoke 1X and the crossing would have been too close to the hub to do them same side.

Your picture is 24 spoke, so the cross is a little further out. Still looks too close to the hub to me putting undue pressure on the "top" spoke.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

1x and radial heads in is something that we used to do but we've gotten away from it seeing as it puts unnecessary stress on the hub flanges. It doesn't matter whether the left goes over right right, or vice versa. As long as it is consistent throughout the system.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Zen Cyclery said:


> 1x and radial heads in is something that we used to do but we've gotten away from it seeing as it puts unnecessary stress on the hub flanges. It doesn't matter whether the left goes over right right, or vice versa. As long as it is consistent throughout the system.


Are you saying that 1x in general puts extra stress on the flanges or both elbows out does?

So the wheel pictures is not consistent correct?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

FWIW I did mine alternating heads in & out. Like a normal crossed spoked wheel. Except not interlaced. I was more worried about stress on the spoke.. Why not just do that?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

bikerjulio said:


> FWIW I did mine alternating heads in & out. Like a normal crossed spoked wheel. Except not interlaced. I was more worried about stress on the spoke.. Why not just do that?


The spokes can have a higher bracing angle with all elbows outwards.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

But Zen just told you that puts more stress on the flange.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

deviousalex said:


> Are you saying that 1x in general puts extra stress on the flanges or both elbows out does?
> 
> So the wheel pictures is not consistent correct?


1x was never intended to have elbows varying in and out. It should always be laced all elbows in or all elbows out, never a combination of the two. 

The picture of the wheel in the original post is a properly laced 1x setup.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

bikerjulio said:


> But Zen just told you that puts more stress on the flange.


It's a trade off. Have higher stress on the flange vs. lower stress on the elbows themselves and a higher bracing angle.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> It's a trade off. Have higher stress on the flange vs. lower stress on the elbows themselves and a higher bracing angle.


Actually there's lower stress on the elbows with heads out.

I don't quite understand why my lacing will cause the wheel to assplode. I'll ride it all year and let you know.

And the bracing angle is already higher than a rear wheel even with heads out too.

I still say that what you showed there is putting a hell of a lot of stress on the outside spoke.

But what do I know?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

bikerjulio said:


> Actually there's lower stress on the elbows with heads out.


How so? By making the spoke touch the hub flange it'll put some force on the flange instead of on the elbow itself from my understanding.



> I don't quite understand why my lacing will cause the wheel to assplode. I'll ride it all year and let you know.


I have no idea either, I'd be interested in hearing what Zen says.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

When you take apart a wheel it's very easy to sort out the spokes between those that were heads in or out.

The ones that were heads in are a lot more bent. So I always assumed that they were more stressed.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Zen Cyclery said:


> 1x was never intended to have elbows varying in and out. It should always be laced all elbows in or all elbows out, never a combination of the two.
> 
> The picture of the wheel in the original post is a properly laced 1x setup.


Would the reason to have all the elbows orientated the same direction be to "tie them together", so to speak? And, would this build into a stiffer wheel, in fact or theory?

These are my thoughts, or maybe guesses, but don't know if I'm right, or just proving my ignorance.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

Wow, so many lacing choices for front wheels! I am building a 24 spoke front wheel using A/C 2218 rims and BHS wide flange hubs. I am considering radial, 1X, and 2X. Now, if I use 1X I have to decide to alternate spoke heads or build all elbows out. It doesn't sound like it is a big deal stregth-wise as the wheel should be fine w/ any of those patterns. I guess my main question is if 1X whether to go all elbows out or not? Any issues w/ flange or hub body strength of the BHS hubs for radial lacing? Thanks a ton for all the great advice guys. 
I'm 172lbs. and mostly ride mountains of colorado.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

andy13 said:


> Wow, so many lacing choices for front wheels! I am building a 24 spoke front wheel using A/C 2218 rims and BHS wide flange hubs. I am considering radial, 1X, and 2X. Now, if I use 1X I have to decide to alternate spoke heads or build all elbows out. It doesn't sound like it is a big deal stregth-wise as the wheel should be fine w/ any of those patterns. I guess my main question is if 1X whether to go all elbows out or not? Any issues w/ flange or hub body strength of the BHS hubs for radial lacing? Thanks a ton for all the great advice guys.
> I'm 172lbs. and mostly ride mountains of colorado.


Even more choices will all elbows in


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

1X offers no appreciable advantage over radial other than looks. You do put unnecessary bends in the elbow when they cross at the round portion of the spoke instead of the blade. I did a few 1X builds and always used spokes that would cross at the blade. It meant having a few different CX-Ray spokes of similar size. I chose the spoke length that gave me the shorted round but and made them the correct length with my Phil Wood spoke machine.

I recommend to you DIYs out there choose between radial or 2X with 20 or 24 spokes on a front wheel.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

My build was originally intended to be radial, but due to some mental meltdown at spoke calculation time, I ended up with spokes that were perfect for a 1x.

My rim is 20H which reduced the crossover point quite a bit from the 24H example.

When I dummied it up with same side crossing it just looked too stressful for the outer spoke, so this was the result. Will I go to hell? Will it spontaneously assplode? Whenever the snow and ice are gone I'll be finding out.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

bikerjulio said:


> My build was originally intended to be radial, but due to some mental meltdown at spoke calculation time, I ended up with spokes that were perfect for a 1x.
> 
> My rim is 20H which reduced the crossover point quite a bit from the 24H example.
> 
> When I dummied it up with same side crossing it just looked too stressful for the outer spoke, so this was the result. Will I go to hell? Will it spontaneously assplode? Whenever the snow and ice are gone I'll be finding out.


I think you made the right choice. I've done that pattern and there is no problem with it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerjulio said:


> When I dummied it up with same side crossing it just looked too stressful for the outer spoke, so this was the result. Will I go to hell?


I doubt you will. With my recent wheelbuild I considered 1x (but went with radial in the end) and would have done them "alternating" like you did. I can't imagine what's not right about that. 

Zen said in his posts above - "1x was never intended to have elbows varying in and out. It should always be laced all elbows in or all elbows out, never a combination of the two." I just hope he explains why this is.



> Whenever the snow and ice are gone I'll be finding out.


Will it ever go away? My snowbanks along my drive are now so high I have trouble seeing up the street when backing down the drive. I was e-mailing with John Marsh at Road Bike Rider yesterday who is in Atlanta GA, where they had “Gridlockalypse” (his term) due to snow & ice last week. He said _"Then, yesterday, it got to mid-60s! I was able to ride Sat. and Sunday. Only needed arm warmers yesterday!"_ Arrgghh! It's -16c / 0f in SW Ontario right now. Arrgghh! :cryin:


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Glad to hear you did a 1X that way too and that Ergott confirms we aren't riding a time bomd or worse yet......going to hell. The only 1X front wheel I ever built has 20 spokes alternating heads in/out, CXrays with about 2,500 miles on it and it hasn't gone up in smoke yet.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2014)

If the cross was on the blades it would look pretty good. With the cross on the round part to me it would look funny.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

One advantage to 1x vs radial is that it puts less stress on the flange. Not only the flange breaking, but deforming the hub shells. On hubs that are known to do that (i.e. White H1s) 1x is preferable to radial. I had a set of wheels on H1s built by Troy @ Ligero (which is where the pic earlier in this thread comes from) and he did the front 1x heads in for that reason. When I reused the hubs on different rims I followed his example.

Some of the BHS hubs have a deep countersink on the outer side of the spoke holes. When laced heads out the head sits in them so deep that it's nearly flush. While that looks cool it means that the elbow is not supported. I had the spokes break at the elbows after 8k or so miles. I've since switched to 1x heads in. On the wide hubs the elbows are pretty far out there and may interfere with the fork (but they're ok on my bikes). On the narrower flange hubs that I prefer it works fine.


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## Gilarider (Jan 11, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> One advantage to 1x vs radial is that it puts less stress on the flange. Not only the flange breaking, but deforming the hub shells. On hubs that are known to do that (i.e. White H1s) 1x is preferable to radial. I had a set of wheels on H1s built by Troy @ Ligero (which is where the pic earlier in this thread comes from) and he did the front 1x heads in for that reason.


So heads in 1x is better for the flange than radial heads out? I guess I don't really care if this is accurate, but it seems like splitting hairs at this point.

I have a cavalier attitude about all of this so I am planning on lacing a couple of 28h 9speed DuraAce front hubs heads in, one radial and one 1x, I am doing this for lateral stiffness reasons and because the spokes may be a teeny bit long because I am reusing spokes on different rims.

Will I go to hell or worse, crash on my face? Seriously though, I had heard these hubs are ok radial at 28h but not 32h, but I don't remember where I heard that.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The only place I have heard that lacing the heads on one side vs the other being harder on the flange is in this thread. It may be true and not well known. I don't know.

The more holes in the flange the weaker it is. Lacing with crosses has the spokes pulling at an angle so there is more material in the flange resisting the spokes pull. The spoke is less likely to pull through the hub (or rather pull a chunk out of the flange).

In any case if you break a flange you're not likely to go on your ear. When I have broken one the spoke in question has stayed in place, just lost all tension (and the wheel goes out of true of course). It's less dangerous than a broken spoke, which is not dangerous in my experience. At worst the loose spoke flops around and makes noise.

Keep in mind that reused spokes are more likely to break, so your radial vs 1x experiment will have more error than if you started with new spokes.


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