# The Rise And Fall Of Tyler Hamilton



## CSCJan (Sep 10, 2011)

Kinda sad...

Anyone else feel bad how his life went?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I rode with Tyler shortly after he won the gold medal...... He is a genuinely nice guy....very personable...

That being said, I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone that doped...


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

CSCJan said:


> The Rise And Fall Of Tyler Hamilton - YouTube
> 
> Kinda sad...
> 
> Anyone else feel bad how his life went?


Tyler should be tortured for the rest of his life. Not because he was a doper. Not because he insulted the intelligence of his fans and the cycling world with his lame disappearing twin defense. But, because he swore on Tugboat's grave that he was telling the truth while he was lying.

I was a great admirer of Tyler Hamilton back in the day. I may have been able to excuse his doping if he had done a David Millar-type of confession when he was caught and come back clean. But, the guy lied after he was caught the first time and then came back and doped again. I have no sympathy for the guy.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> I rode with Tyler shortly after he won the gold medal...... He is a genuinely nice guy....very personable...
> 
> That being said, I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone that doped...


+1. Used to ski race with him back when we were attending the University of Colorado. I would add soft spoken and thoughtful to what Dave said. UNfortunately, he chose the wrong path imho.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

I watched the video.
I saw the rise, but where's the fall?


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## Rob (Mar 3, 2004)

I still remember when he rode the Tour - and won a stage - after breaking his collarbone in an earlier stage. An amazing accomplishment that will largely be forgotten because of the cheating.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

I can't watch those videos of Hamilton, Lance, and the whole "Postal train" in action and think that what I'm watching is real. That whole era was a dope fest. It may still be, but in hindsight their performances where just ridiculous.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

Rob said:


> I still remember when he rode the Tour - and won a stage - after breaking his collarbone in an earlier stage. An amazing accomplishment that will largely be forgotten because of the cheating.


What I really miss is the ton of Imax film rotting in the can that was shot of that race featuring Hamilton. I couldn't wait until the film came out, and then the doping issue arose. The film, lacking its star, morphed into a footnote to a sad era.


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

I think we need to give Tyler a break. He got caught, sure. He lied, sure. But his accomplishments took place in an environment of nearly universal doping, so they should be acknowledged. He has also tried to do the right thing for himself and the sport since he confessed.


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## mapeiboy (Oct 31, 2007)

Its so easy for us armchair quarterback to claim moral high ground regarding doping . What would you do if cycling is all you ever know since a kid . You have no other skill to fall back on . Your choice : dope to keep the job or clean and found youself in a minimum wage job for life . Are you telling me you never cheated once at work to make you look good and possible get to keep the job . Let those live in a glass house cast the first stone .


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## connie (Jul 30, 2006)

mapeiboy said:


> Its so easy for us armchair quarterback to claim moral high ground regarding doping . What would you do if cycling is all you ever know since a kid . You have no other skill to fall back on . Your choice : dope to keep the job or clean and found youself in a minimum wage job for life . Are you telling me you never cheated once at work to make you look good and possible get to keep the job . Let those live in a glass house cast the first stone .


So lets not prosecute Islamic terrorists or inner city dope dealers or super rich embezzlers from Enron or anybody, really. What an inane comment.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Doping is not the only measure of a person. I have had many close friends, roommates, and teammates who have doped. Some are good people....others not so much. 

Tyler's story is amazingly complex as is Tyler. He has made some decisions that make it very hard for for me to look at him in a positive way. Ultimately he needs to stop trying to please everyone, it is never going to happen


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

connie said:


> So lets not prosecute Islamic terrorists or inner city dope dealers or super rich embezzlers from Enron or anybody, really. What an inane comment.


Doping at cycling did not kill people. Comparing it to terrorists or even embezzlers is inane. 

If everyone is doing it, then to be competitive you need to too. A shame but if the powers that be look the other way. Then thats what happens. Same thing in any sport for that matter.


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## jumpstumper (Aug 17, 2004)

connie said:


> So lets not prosecute Islamic terrorists or inner city dope dealers or super rich embezzlers from Enron or anybody, really. What an inane comment.


But then again, professional bicycle racing only redeemable value is entertainment and just not that important in the grand scheme of life. Can't say I agree with your comparison.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

connie said:


> So lets not prosecute Islamic terrorists or inner city dope dealers or super rich embezzlers from Enron or anybody, really. What an inane comment.


What inane metaphors.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

NJBiker72 said:


> Doping at cycling did not kill people. Comparing it to terrorists or even embezzlers is inane.
> 
> If everyone is doing it, then to be competitive you need to too. A shame but if the powers that be look the other way. Then thats what happens. Same thing in any sport for that matter.


It killed Tom Simpson.


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## INeedGears (Aug 23, 2011)

All pro athletes dope. Some do illegal drugs, some use state of the art enhancers that aren't illegal...YET. But cyclists, football players, hockey players, and baseball players dope. Skiers, snowboarders and equestrians dope.

Everyone get over it already. Cycling makes doping a major black eye because they actually test and enforce the rules. But other sports don't test, only test those that are clean, or bury it under a rug. Did Tyler make bad choices? I can't say that he did. If he hadn't made the choice to use PED's he would not have been competitive. Are they cheaters? Yep, they are. But they all are. When there are millions upon millions of dollars at stake people will do whatever it takes to win


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

INeedGears said:


> All pro athletes dope. Some do illegal drugs, some use state of the art enhancers that aren't illegal...YET. But cyclists, football players, hockey players, and baseball players dope. Skiers, snowboarders and equestrians dope.
> 
> Everyone get over it already. Cycling makes doping a major black eye because they actually test and enforce the rules. But other sports don't test, only test those that are clean, or bury it under a rug. Did Tyler make bad choices? I can't say that he did. If he hadn't made the choice to use PED's he would not have been competitive. Are they cheaters? Yep, they are. But they all are. When there are millions upon millions of dollars at stake people will do whatever it takes to win


There are plenty of world class athletes who do not dope. While the NFL, MLB, and NBA are far behind when it comes to testing all other IOC sports are tested like cycling, in fact Athletics (Track and Field) and Soccer are tested more. Even the NHL has WADA testing in World and Olympic years


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

mapeiboy said:


> Its so easy for us armchair quarterback to claim moral high ground regarding doping .* What would you do if cycling is all you ever know since a kid . You have no other skill to fall back on . Your choice : dope to keep the job or clean and found youself in a minimum wage job for life *. Are you telling me you never cheated once at work to make you look good and possible get to keep the job . Let those live in a glass house cast the first stone .


Whatever merit such an argument may make with respect to some kid who has no future other than a minimum wage job (and I don't believe that it does have much merit), it does not apply to Tyler Hamilton. My recollection is that he came from a fairly affluent family, went to a private prep school and graduated from the University of Colorado before he became a pro. Tyler Hamilton would not have been flipping burgers at McDonalds had be not been a pro cyclist.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I don't feel bad but he seems like a really decent guy. Hard for me to heap scorn on any of these dopers because it's pretty clear while they may have been breaking the rules, it seems pretty apparent practically no one was being cheated. There was really only one way to be professional cyclist of any worth. As fans, at some point it was pretty obvious how the game was played, I could never understand the naivety of some people. So if you got fooled it's as much on you as it was on them.

I don't understand why so many fans have such a problem with doping when it is clear the only people it directly affected didn't seem to have much a problem if any with the "cheating". In fact it was the ones who tried to do something to stop the cheating that were ostracized, not the cheaters.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

il sogno said:


> It killed Tom Simpson.


He wasn't killed by some one else doping him. It was only partly attributable to doping for cycling anyway wasn't it? Wasn't he on a blinder the night before or something?


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I don't feel bad but he seems like a really decent guy. Hard for me to heap scorn on any of these dopers because it's pretty clear while they may have been breaking the rules, it seems pretty apparent practically no one was being cheated. There was really only one way to be professional cyclist of any worth. As fans, at some point it was pretty obvious how the game was played, I could never understand the naivety of some people. So if you got fooled it's as much on you as it was on them.
> 
> I don't understand why so many fans have such a problem with doping when it is clear the only people it directly affected didn't seem to have much a problem if any with the "cheating". In fact it was the ones who tried to do something to stop the cheating that were ostracized, not the cheaters.


The problem I have with doping is that it makes other cyclists/athletes dope to remain competitive. 

That said I do not have a major issue as it is just second nature for a competitive person of any stripe to try and get an edge. Whether that's EPO in cycling, HGH in baseball, steroids in football, caffeine or stronger in school/work. What gets me is that it is sometimes arbitrary as to what is banned and not. Not too familiar with all the rules in cycling but I am sure there are plenty of legal performance enhancers that are considered fine. I mean how many of us do not take a gel or two along the way for a big ride? Some of the stuff in say Accel Gel, does not strike me as all that natural.


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## jumpstumper (Aug 17, 2004)

NJBiker72 said:


> The problem I have with doping is that it makes other cyclists/athletes dope to remain competitive.
> 
> That said I do not have a major issue as it is just second nature for a competitive person of any stripe to try and get an edge. Whether that's EPO in cycling, HGH in baseball, steroids in football, caffeine or stronger in school/work. What gets me is that it is sometimes arbitrary as to what is banned and not. Not too familiar with all the rules in cycling but I am sure there are plenty of legal performance enhancers that are considered fine. I mean how many of us do not take a gel or two along the way for a big ride? Some of the stuff in say Accel Gel, does not strike me as all that natural.


Or even LASIK eye surgery in other sports to help better see a ball. Isn't that using the same unnatural way to achieve an advantage like steroids?


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

jumpstumper said:


> Or even LASIK eye surgery in other sports to help better see a ball. Isn't that using the same unnatural way to achieve an advantage like steroids?


LASIK is the perfect example. In baseball, Wade Boggs completely restarted his career due to LASIK. A younger Boggs had 20-10 vision. He could see the spin on the ball. After leaving the BoSox he went to a Dr who told him his vision was fine, it was 20-20. He had LASIK to get it back to 20-15.


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## jumpstumper (Aug 17, 2004)

NJBiker72 said:


> LASIK is the perfect example. In baseball, Wade Boggs completely restarted his career due to LASIK. A younger Boggs had 20-10 vision. He could see the spin on the ball. After leaving the BoSox he went to a Dr who told him his vision was fine, it was 20-20. He had LASIK to get it back to 20-15.


Yet, where is the outcry over this form of cheating - body modifications?


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

jumpstumper said:


> Yet, where is the outcry over this form of cheating - body modifications?


None. Or about Tommy John surgery. Or any other procedure. Most supplements are fine in people's eyes. Yet it is a known fact that creatine improves performance. Arginine is widely believed to. Plenty of others. 

Fact is there are lots of ways that athletes can "artificially" improve performance and they will. The reward is simply to great not to. I have a hard time blaming them for being competitive.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

HUge difference between Tommy John surgery, which is done to repair an injury and Lasik, which is usually done by athletes to become better.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

nedbraden said:


> HUge difference between Tommy John surgery, which is done to repair an injury and Lasik, which is usually done by athletes to become better.


Actually not true. TJ surgery is done to repair injury from wear and tear. LASIK repairs age related declines. Steroids can allow a player to recover faster and stay more fit as they age. Amphetamines let players play on through a grueling schedule and keep them performing near their best. 

None of these were possible in the days of Babe Ruth.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

il sogno said:


> It killed Tom Simpson.


And Ricardo Ricco!

er.. oh wait- he lived.
Dammit!
:lol:


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

connie said:


> So lets not prosecute Islamic terrorists or inner city dope dealers or super rich embezzlers from Enron or anybody, really. What an inane comment.




Should Tyler be caned?


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

Be happy for him, he's getting married.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

il sogno said:


> It killed Tom Simpson.


 Heat stroke and dehydration didn't hurt either.


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## Axe (Sep 21, 2004)

NJBiker72 said:


> None of these were possible in the days of Babe Ruth.


That is why he had not faced as tough a competition. In his shape - against today's pampered starters and bullpen specialists and computer analyzed defensive alignments - would be hard to repeat his numbers.

Times change. It's OK.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Axe said:


> That is why he had not faced as tough a competition. In his shape - against today's pampered starters and bullpen specialists and computer analyzed defensive alignments - would be hard to repeat his numbers.
> 
> Times change. It's OK.


Very true and Bonds faced pitchers that had the same advantages he did. 

Lance Armstrong faced cyclists with the same advantages he had. 

Compare within an era and how one athlete compares to athletes of that era.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

NJBiker72 said:


> Very true and Bonds faced pitchers that had the same advantages he did.
> 
> Lance Armstrong faced cyclists with the same advantages he had.
> 
> Compare within an era and how one athlete compares to athletes of that era.


Really?

How many other riders paid off the UCI? How many received advance notice of surprise testing? How many had access to Hemoassit? How many of his GT competitors worked with Ferrari? 

The level playing field is a myth


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really?
> 
> How many other riders paid off the UCI? How many received advance notice of surprise testing? How many had access to Hemoassit? How many of his GT competitors worked with Ferrari?
> 
> The level playing field is a myth


Have you looked at how many podiums at the Tour came up with positive results during that era. Most to be conservative. 

Yes it was a level playing field. Yes athletes tried to get away with things. They are competitive. They always will try.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

NJBiker72 said:


> Have you looked at how many podiums at the Tour came up with positive results during that era. Most to be conservative.
> 
> Yes it was a level playing field. Yes athletes tried to get away with things. They are competitive. They always will try.


Wrong! Too wrong to even bother trying to explain.:mad2:

Ok, I can't help myself. One guy is spending more that 100k a year on a doping program. Some of his competition doesn't even make 100k.

One guy flies across borders in a private jet where he carries drugs and blows off customs.

One guy pays the UCI off 100k and 500?k...

Please, just stop, you're being silly


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Chris-X said:


> Wrong! Too wrong to even bother trying to explain.:mad2:


No apparently too right to even try to refute. Bicycling had an article on it at some point this summer. Check it out.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

NJBiker72 said:


> No apparently too right to even try to refute. Bicycling had an article on it at some point this summer. Check it out.


Why do you think Dr. Ferrari commands exclusives from riders such as Armstrong? Do you realize how much these guys pay for programs?

BTW, Bicycling is so behind the curve in these matters it is laughable. And Bill Strickland has recently/belatedly come to the understanding that Armstrong was in fact jacked.

Timing, Dosage, Training, and Evasion are a very precise science requiring vast experience. Blood doping safely is a major logistical undertaking. 

You're really emphasizing your lack of understanding.

There ARE Doctors on this forum who have provided you with a great deal of insider information regarding the FACT that it is NOT a level playing field.

If all else fails, make a large payment to the UCI to make positives disappear.

How many pro cyclists have multi million dollar a year incomes to allow that?

You can cling to your prejudices and beliefs on these matters, or you can open your mind and learn something.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Chris-X said:


> Why do you think Dr. Ferrari commands exclusives from riders such as Armstrong? Do you realize how much these guys pay for programs?
> 
> BTW, Bicycling is so behind the curve in these matters it is laughable. And Bill Strickland has recently/belatedly come to the understanding that Armstrong was in fact jacked.
> 
> ...


Wait there are OTHER doctors?!? My god. So if Lance got one Contador could get another? Evans a third. Voigt, Hamilton? How many of these PhDs are their. 

Seriously. You are the one showing prejudice. It's laughable. 

You are not only showing a lack of knowledge but a naïveté that would make a kid blush.


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really?
> 
> How many other riders paid off the UCI? How many received advance notice of surprise testing? How many had access to Hemoassit? How many of his GT competitors worked with Ferrari?
> 
> The level playing field is a myth


i believe la was jacked, but did he have all these advantages even in 99?


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

peabody said:


> i believe la was jacked, but did he have all these advantages even in 99?


Even worse, he was positive for corticoids without a TUE at the beginning of the '99 Tour. Two weeks after the positive he came up with a backdated prescription. By that time he had a firm lock on the Tour lead. 

However when asked in an interview before the positive, he said he never needed a TUE ever.

The tour didn't want to risk another scandal on the heels of Festina, so they let it go.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

peabody said:


> i believe la was jacked, but did he have all these advantages even in 99?


The Festina affair scared many. It is interesting to note that the retro testing of the 1999 samples showed that Armstrong was far more comfortable using EPO then his competitors. Almost 50% of the samples that tested positive belonged to Armstrong. 

Michael Ashenden | NY Velocity - New York bike racing culture, news and events

Also interesting to note that prior to Walter Viru being the source for advanced notice of OOC test that job fell to Bill Stapleton......Armstrong's agent and manager who also happened to be an IOC board member and chair of it's ethics committee. For some reason he felt it necessarily to ask for the testing schedule, not that he ever used it for his biggest customer.


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## jumpstumper (Aug 17, 2004)

Dead horse. Continue to beat until tired. Repeat a month later. Horse still dead. Move on.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

_Blood doping safely is a major logistical undertaking. _

That is what I always thought. But Landis makes it sound like it was about as easy as popping the top off of a cold brew.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

Chris-X said:


> Even worse, he was positive for corticoids without a TUE at the beginning of the '99 Tour. Two weeks after the positive he came up with a backdated prescription. By that time he had a firm lock on the Tour lead.
> 
> However when asked in an interview before the positive, he said he never needed a TUE ever.
> 
> The tour didn't want to risk another scandal on the heels of Festina, so they let it go.


Not defending LA (though I never have heard the TUE was two weeks later), but why are you not going nuclear over Contador? The corticoid that LA tested positive for was in amounts lower then would be considered a positive yet you seem to be living to see him burn but not AC.

P.S.- This is pretty common around here.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

nedbraden said:


> Not defending LA (though I never have heard the TUE was two weeks later), but why are you not going nuclear over Contador? The corticoid that LA tested positive for was in amounts lower then would be considered a positive yet you seem to be living to see him burn but not AC.
> 
> P.S.- This is pretty common around here.


Likely because there are few clueless groupies pretending Contador is not a doper. The conversation usually goes like this

"Contador is a doper"

"Yeah, he is a doper"


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

NJBiker72 said:


> Have you looked at how many podiums at the Tour came up with positive results during that era. Most to be conservative.
> 
> Yes it was a level playing field. Yes athletes tried to get away with things. They are competitive. They always will try.


How many payed off the UCI? How many had access to Baxter?


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## atctimmy (Jul 16, 2011)

I competed at a high level in a professional sport ( if I told you what sport you'd all laugh at me). I learned quickly that everyone cheated...EVERYONE. When thousands upon thousands of dollars are at stake people will do anything to win. My team manager and coach used to say "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough.".

I don't blame Tyler (or Lance or Alberto....) they didn't create the problem. It's just the way it is.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

atctimmy said:


> I competed at a high level in a professional sport ( if I told you what sport you'd all laugh at me). I learned quickly that everyone cheated...EVERYONE. When thousands upon thousands of dollars are at stake people will do anything to win. My team manager and coach used to say "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough.".
> 
> I don't blame Tyler (or Lance or Alberto....) they didn't create the problem. It's just the way it is.


Well said. Too much financial and competitive incentive to cheat. Never played anything pro level but I know some who have and all say the same thing you did.


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## 95zpro (Mar 28, 2010)

To think that there are not different levels of doping products available sounds naive, just like there are different grades of diamonds you can buy for your wife's wedding ring not everyone has the ability to buy the best. So to argue that although they were all doping so the playing field was level is not true. I think the argument can also be made that not everyone responds to drugs in the same manner as well. 
We all can pretty much conclude that everyone was doping back then, especially when you look at how many riders have been found guilty from the past TDF podium spots.Where I think most folks have a problem is when LA or anyone else from that era tries to pull the wool over our eyes and treat us like we are stupid. Being from Texas, I equate it to Roger Clemens and Andy Petite; Petite confessed and went back to playing a few more seasons of major league baseball while Roger has been dragged through the mud. "The cover up is always worse than the crime!"


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## Mulowe (Jul 17, 2003)

*Why he's different, my take*

What makes me see lance differently is that he was boss.
He reined over the sport and used his position and considerable clout to mange anyone who dared question him. 
Lives and careers were damaged because of his willingness to crush them. It was his choice to do so.
My perception is that of a bully.
Now if on the other hand he was like all the others and denied and placidly played along with the "code" of silence he might be seen allot differently. 
For me it's not just about the doping it's about the rage and revenge he took on others.

A major pro has said it was like driving on the freeway. If traffic is all going 70and the speed limit is 55, what do you do ?
They chose to break the rules and drive at 70.
Not saying it's correct or right but as analogies go I get it.
Like it or not this era in pro cycling was an " inside job" just like wall street.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

NJBiker72 said:


> Actually not true. TJ surgery is done to repair injury from wear and tear. LASIK repairs age related declines. Steroids can allow a player to recover faster and stay more fit as they age. Amphetamines let players play on through a grueling schedule and keep them performing near their best.
> 
> None of these were possible in the days of Babe Ruth.


1) TJ surgery is not from wear and tear, it is from catastrophic failure of the ligament.
2) LASIK is used to improve vision to perform better whether it is from natural degeneration that happens to all humans or simply to make good vision great.



Doctor Falsetti said:


> Likely because there are few clueless groupies pretending Contador is not a doper. The conversation usually goes like this
> 
> "Contador is a doper"
> 
> "Yeah, he is a doper"


Yet, many forums, including this one prove you wrong in this assertion. You might be an interesting person to discuss doping with if you could get past this obsession you have with seeing LA burn.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

nedbraden said:


> Yet, many forums, including this one prove you wrong in this assertion. You might be an interesting person to discuss doping with if you could get past this obsession you have with seeing LA burn.


Says the guy who every post is about Lance

Let me know next time someone is confused about Contador and as a favor to you I will explain the facts to him


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Says the guy who every post is about Lance
> 
> Let me know next time someone is confused about Contador and as a favor to you I will explain the facts to him


1) Message not messenger. (oh, wait I forgot you have different rules then all others here.

2) As usual you use misdirection.

You crack me up.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

nedbraden said:


> 1) Message not messenger. (oh, wait I forgot you have different rules then all others here.
> 
> 2) As usual you use misdirection.
> 
> You crack me up.


Do you have a specific example of something that I have posted that you think is incorrect, or are you just trying to bait me into responding to you?


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

I completely agree with Mulowe. It's Armstrong's treatment of riders such as Bassons and Simeoni which really makes me hae him so much. If he just had his wins, denied doping like everyone else and left it at that with a successful career, I would have much more sympathy for him. 

And there is also the obvious fact that with a lot more money than everyone else, he was unbeatable. The king of the doping age. That's not exactly fair, even by doping standards.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Tyler on Twitter today


Ty_Hamilton Tyler Hamilton 
Hey @lancearmstrong - welcome to Boston. Let me know if u need any restaurant recommendations...


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Ha, now that IS funny!
Thanks Doc.(and Tyler, I guess)


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