# Grippy Tires in the Rain



## Roar

Hi Guys -

Today I went down in the spitting rain on my commute to work. I went around a corner at around 5-6 mph (max) and slid out like Evel Knievel. I was generally OK but it scared me a bit because this is an area where there tend to be lots of heavy construction trucks. Had one of those been behind me, it potentially would not have been good.

I have been feeling a bit slippy on these tires ever since I got this bike and I was wondering if I should get new tires but today made up my mind. 

The bike is a steel cyclocross bike and the current tires are 700*28. I like the 28s because they seem sturdy and yet I can keep up with the traffic. 

The commute is about 5 miles and I need to be fast enough to keep up with the traffic. The roads are full of potholes, glass, and because this is an old city, there are a couple of blocks of cobblestones. Oh, and I usually have one pretty loaded pannier. (I seem to haul a lot stuff.)

It's also really rainy... 

It would be handy if the tires were puncture-resistant, too (I know there are loads of thread on this) but right now grippiness has the priority. 

I'd love your sage advice. Thanks in advance.


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## Kerry Irons

*Pressure?*



Roar said:


> Hi Guys -
> 
> Today I went down in the spitting rain on my commute to work. I went around a corner at around 5-6 mph (max) and slid out like Evel Knievel. I was generally OK but it scared me a bit because this is an area where there tend to be lots of heavy construction trucks. Had one of those been behind me, it potentially would not have been good.
> 
> I have been feeling a bit slippy on these tires ever since I got this bike and I was wondering if I should get new tires but today made up my mind.
> 
> The bike is a steel cyclocross bike and the current tires are 700*28. I like the 28s because they seem sturdy and yet I can keep up with the traffic.
> 
> The commute is about 5 miles and I need to be fast enough to keep up with the traffic. The roads are full of potholes, glass, and because this is an old city, there are a couple of blocks of cobblestones. Oh, and I usually have one pretty loaded pannier. (I seem to haul a lot stuff.)
> 
> It's also really rainy...
> 
> It would be handy if the tires were puncture-resistant, too (I know there are loads of thread on this) but right now grippiness has the priority.
> 
> I'd love your sage advice. Thanks in advance.


Since you don't mention the tire brand/model it's a little hard to comment. However, 5-6 mph is a very slow speed to lose traction in the wet. Do you have the tires pumped up really hard? That would likely have more effect than the choice of rubber compound. 

The other issue that has to be raised is riding skills - you should be leaning your body and keeping the bike more upright when cornering in the wet. And of course in construction zones there can be oil on the road, loose gravel, sand, etc. which you need to be watching for.


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## brucew

Pavement markings (either painted or plastic), tar strips, and metal all have almost zero grip in the wet, no matter what your tire is. Crosswalk markings can be a real thrill when cornering in the wet. Are you sure the fault was your tire?

I run 28mm Continental Grand Prix 4-Season tires on my main commuting rig. They have a reputation for being the grippiest road tire in the wet. They certainly are confidence-inspiring. They're also fairly puncture-resistant.

Oooo. I re-read your OP. Cobbles. I get a hundred yards of those on one of my routes--climbing at 10-14%. The thing to remember on the cobbles is that 28s are not 23s. Don't pump them up to triple-digit pressures. I run 65 psi front and 75 psi rear (I'm 170 lbs) and that seems to be the sweet spot. See PSI Rx.


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## rcnute

Panaracer Paselas have a nice grippy tread.


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## brucew

rcnute said:


> Panaracer Paselas have a nice grippy tread.


On bicycle road tires, tread (tire features) do not increase grip in either the wet or the dry. I'm not knocking the tire you recommend, only saying the tread pattern has nothing to do with its grip.



> Your best option for normal but wet roads is getting tires with a slick (no tread features) tire with a grippy compound. -- _Guy K. Browne, SCHWALBE NORTH AMERICA_


Or, you can listen to Sheldon Brown:



> Tread for on-road use
> 
> Bicycle tires for on-road use have no need of any sort of tread features; in fact, the best road tires are perfectly smooth, with no tread at all!
> 
> Unfortunately, most people assume that a smooth tire will be slippery, so this type of tire is difficult to sell to unsophisticated cyclists. Most tire makers cater to this by putting a very fine pattern on their tires, mainly for cosmetic and marketing reasons. If you examine a section of asphalt or concrete, you'll see that the texture of the road itself is much "knobbier" than the tread features of a good quality road tire. Since the tire is flexible, even a slick tire deforms as it comes into contact with the pavement, acquiring the shape of the pavement texture, only while in contact with the road.
> 
> People ask, "But don't slick tires get slippery on wet roads, or worse yet, wet metal features such as expansion joints, paint stripes, or railroad tracks?" The answer is, yes, they do. So do tires with tread. All tires are slippery in these conditions. Tread features make no improvement in this.


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## Roar

Thanks for the comments. The tires I currently have are Bontrager Selects.

I went back and looked where I crashed and there was man-hole type plate there, but I cannot be sure that's what I hit. Any time the roads are the least bit wet, I feel the rear tire slip around a bit. I am at about 90 psi (which I think is what is recommended). 

My road bike has Michelin Pro 3s on it and I have never (knock wood) slipped around like I do on these Bontragers. 

It's quite possible I leaned in and accelerated too much ---- I was at a red light that had just turned, but I really had no real momentum because I was turning a corner from a dead stop. 

So....

PS - Bruce, thanks for the link on PSI --- I am at 125 pounds, with steel cyclocross bike and usually a 5-10 pound pannier...I will read your link... Maybe I am pumped up too much...paranoid about pinch flats so maybe I overdo it. I do hop curbs...


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## PeatD

Check the recommended pressure range for your tires, and see how the tires feel with the pressure at the low end of the range.

125psi for a 700x28 tire is really high for a commute. For reference, the highest I go on my 700x23 tires is 100psi.


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## mitmoned

PeatD said:


> 125psi for a 700x28 tire is really high for a commute. For reference, the highest I go on my 700x23 tires is 100psi.



I think he meant that he himself weights 125 lbs. But he does mention that his pressure is at 90 PSI, which is quite high for 28s and a 125 lb rider. Bontragers are screwy that way. I have a set of 32C Hardcases that say "Inflate to 100 psi." There's no way I'm pumping a 32C tire up to 100 psi. My guess is that was just a standard label they put on all their hardcases, regardless of tire width. 

Being that you do hop curbs, have cobbles, and are wise to avoid pinch flats, you could experiment with 70-ish psi and probably be good. Like 70 for the front, 75 for the rear? Try that out and see how it feels and take your first hops a little more light for a while. If you feel like you're close to dinging your rims at that pressure, go up a few more psi - 73/78. I think you'll find it way more comfortable too, especially on those cobbles.


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## axlenut

Hi all, I found a nice bike tire info and pressure inflation guild. Just google TireDrop.pdf

Looks like the OP is running too much pressure, I took the weight of 125 LBs + 25 for the bike and come up with 50 PSI front and 60/65 for the rear for 28 MM tires.

Maybe run more during dry conditions when you want to hop curbs but drop it down when wet?


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## Roar

Yes, to clarify, I weigh 125 pounds (I am a chick, for what it's worth...)

And the tires are inflated to around 90....

I will go down on the air pressure and see how that feels.


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## dualpivot

For more traction, use a wider tire. More rubber == more grip, and more volume means lower pressure and a smoother ride on cobbles. A cyclocross bike should let you go bigger than 28. Perhaps a tire like the Schwalbe Kojak in 700x35c. I've never flatted on the 26" version in semi-urban riding and they're very grippy. damn, now I've cursed myself! The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme can be had at 40mm wide too. 

Another possibility might be the Panaracer Ribmo, they seem to be well-reviewed and can be had in 32 and 35mm widths.


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## Kerry Irons

*Half right*



dualpivot said:


> For more traction, use a wider tire. More rubber == more grip, and more volume means lower pressure and a smoother ride on cobbles. A cyclocross bike should let you go bigger than 28. Perhaps a tire like the Schwalbe Kojak in 700x35c. I've never flatted on the 26" version in semi-urban riding and they're very grippy. damn, now I've cursed myself! The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme can be had at 40mm wide too.
> 
> Another possibility might be the Panaracer Ribmo, they seem to be well-reviewed and can be had in 32 and 35mm widths.


For a 125 lb rider, 28 mm tires should be plenty wide for most circumstances. You can't just say "For more traction, use a wider tire." You have to lower the pressure. The contact patch on the road is the weight that wheel is carrying divided by the pressure in the tire (making sure the units are correct, like pounds divided by pounds per square inch). Increasing tire size at constant pressure just changes the shape of the contact patch, not the size and doesn't improve traction.


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## dualpivot

Kerry Irons said:


> For a 125 lb rider, 28 mm tires should be plenty wide for most circumstances. You can't just say "For more traction, use a wider tire." You have to lower the pressure. The contact patch on the road is the weight that wheel is carrying divided by the pressure in the tire (making sure the units are correct, like pounds divided by pounds per square inch). Increasing tire size at constant pressure just changes the shape of the contact patch, not the size and doesn't improve traction.


I agree 100%. That's why I said "More rubber == more grip, and more volume means* lower pressure* and a smoother ride"  That said, at 200 lbs my experience riding over rough roads is surely a bit different than the OP at 125 lbs.


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## MTT

I commute on a Cyclocross bike in Seattle; so I do know a bit about riding in the rain. I have tried the Schwalbe Marathon Supreme, Schwalbe Marathon Plus, Contenental Gatorskins and Specialized Armadillos. Both the Supreme and the Gatorskins have decent grip and very good performance, but the tire I like most in the rain is the Schwalbe Marathon Plus. The Armadillos are not good in the rain, but you will never flat with those (good desert tires?).

The Plus does not corner as well as the Supreme, but it is more bullet proof, and the grip is very good. I roll the 32, but since my commute is short I might get the 35 next time, not sure. I ride the 32 around 90-95psi. Good luck and be safe.................MTT :thumbsup:


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## BianchiJoe

I like "negative tread" tires like the Vittoria Randonneur for wet condiions


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## Roar

Guys, thanks so much for your comments. I am going to investigate the tire recommendations and definitely reduce the psi. 

This really is such a great forum. I have learned so much since I discovered it.


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## Ken2

*Ribmo-*

Another poster recommended the Panaracer Ribmo. I used it for a while in the 28mm width and it was very scary in the wet. No they weren't pumped too high--I generally bleed off ~10psi for rain riding so these were at 65F/75R (and I weigh 195). I think it's because a design "feature" is the non-rounded profile--it's more of a V-shape which may indeed be more efficient on dry pavement.

Other tires I've used are Specialized Nimbus (not as garden-hose hard as Armadillos but still not great in rain); Conti GatorSkins (good); and Conti Grand Prix 4 Seasons (pricey but best IMO in rain). Contis run narrow so if choosing between 25s and 28s I would go 28.


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## Scott B

Roar said:


> Thanks for the comments. The tires I currently have are Bontrager Selects.
> 
> I went back and looked where I crashed and there was man-hole type plate there, but I cannot be sure that's what I hit. Any time the roads are the least bit wet, I feel the rear tire slip around a bit. I am at about 90 psi (which I think is what is recommended).
> 
> My road bike has Michelin Pro 3s on it and I have never (knock wood) slipped around like I do on these Bontragers.
> 
> It's quite possible I leaned in and accelerated too much ---- I was at a red light that had just turned, but I really had no real momentum because I was turning a corner from a dead stop.


The Bontrager Selects in my experience are not terribly grippy. They have a very hard compound so they are tough but at the price of grip and ride quality. In my experience they were pretty awful and I'll never ride a pair again. Rubber compound matters more for road riding then tread pattern. A really soft compound slick tire will grip like crazy on pavement, but it will wear faster. 

At 125 lbs you could certainly experiment with lower pressure too. I run 700x28 Conti Gatorskins on one commuter bike and generally keep then at about 90psi (I'm 155lbs). My partner (120lbs) runs her 700x23s on her roadie at 90 front/95 back and runs about 85psi on her 700x32 commuter tires. Just some ballpark figures that have worked for us.

Other posters advice about looking at road surface and hazards is very good. Certain things, like manhole covers, railroad tracks, etc have zero grip no matter what the tire. Good luck, rubber side down.


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## rcnute

brucew said:


> On bicycle road tires, tread (tire features) do not increase grip in either the wet or the dry. I'm not knocking the tire you recommend, only saying the tread pattern has nothing to do with its grip.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, you can listen to Sheldon Brown:


I have to respectfully disagree with both you and Sheldon.


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## brucew

rcnute said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with both you and Sheldon.


You're quite welcome to. Please, expand a bit for us. Maybe we'll learn something.


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## testpilot

Scott B said:


> The Bontrager Selects in my experience are not terribly grippy. They have a very hard compound so they are tough but at the price of grip and ride quality. In my experience they were pretty awful and I'll never ride a pair again. Rubber compound matters more for road riding then tread pattern. A really soft compound slick tire will grip like crazy on pavement, but it will wear faster.


This is not the first time I've heard Bontragers are not grippy. I wish I would have known before breaking a hip sliding out on a wet road centerline. Bontrager should get out of the tire business.


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## hepcatbent

My experience has been that slicks are wonderful on clean pavement. Sand, gravel, dirt, grass, or any combination of the above and slicks really leave something to be desired. I like Contiental Tour-Rides... a nice easy-rolling band down the center, and decent side tread for grip on less-than-pristine surfaces. They're a good all-round commuter tire. They're relatively low-pressure, have high puncture resistance, and give a nice ride. To the OP, at 125 lbs I doubt you're going to have any pinch-flats at 40 psi and up just hopping curbs.


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## rcnute

brucew said:


> You're quite welcome to. Please, expand a bit for us. Maybe we'll learn something.[/QUO
> 
> I think there's a difference between tread pattern and tread surface. Tread pattern won't matter on pavement. But a rougher tread surface a la the Pasela does. I can tell the difference with wet roads here in the PNW. It's like bowling with sneakers vs. bowling shoes.


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## Kerry Irons

*Tread pattern purpose*



rcnute said:


> I think there's a difference between tread pattern and tread surface. Tread pattern won't matter on pavement. But a rougher tread surface a la the Pasela does. I can tell the difference with wet roads here in the PNW. It's like bowling with sneakers vs. bowling shoes.


How do you know that it is not the rubber compound, rubber thickness, or casing construction that you are feeling? Tread pattern in bicycle tires works when the riding surface is deformable and so the tread pattern can bite into that surface. Tread pattern on hard surfaces means that there is less rubber in contact with the road at any given tire pressure (compared to a slick). This is not opinion, but rather the result of tire design studies going back decades.


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## Mr. Versatile

On pavement, motor racing vehicles , regardless of the # of wheels they have, always use slick tires unless their governing body disallows them. The surface to surface is maximized and in addition they also have many degrees of hardness of rubber, construction types, etc. etc. On your car or motorcycle it's likely the tires are the most technologically advanced product on the vehicle. When racing in the rain they use grooved or "treaded" tires. These are effective in the wet because they give the water space to escape from beneath the tire. If the grooves weren't there the tires would literally float on the water, a phenomenon known as hydroplaning. When cars hydroplane they're impossible to control.

Bicycle tires don't hydroplane for two reasons: 1. They're very narrow, and 2. Bicycles can't travel fast enough for hydroplaning to play any role. Even if you're bombing downhill at 50+mph in the rain it's not nearly fast enough for your bicycle tires to hydroplane. Therefore tread on bicycle tires meant to be used on pavement is useless and unneeded.

After a few days without rain the streets will accumulate an oil film on them from auto traffic passing over them. Usually the only place you can see this is the center of ea. lane, between the tire tracks. It's especially noticeable at intersections where there are traffic signals. This is almost never a traction problem until it starts to rain. Rain washes the oil over the road making the pavement slippery. If the rain continues the oil slick is eventually washed off. Depending on conditions this might take 30 min. or so. If it's possible to refrain from riding during the first half our of rainfall it's probably a good idea. After that there's significantly more traction available. Plastic and /or painted surfaces, e.g., lane dividers, crosswalks, turn arrows, manhole covers are like ice when wet. I avoid them like the plague. In fact I dislike riding on them even when dry.

Precipitation also washes debris over the road which is disguised by the glare of the water. Flats and tire cuts are lots more common when the pavement for that reason.


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## pennstater

Mr. Versatile said:


> After a few days without rain the streets will accumulate an oil film on them from auto traffic passing over them. Usually the only place you can see this is the center of ea. lane, between the tire tracks. It's especially noticeable at intersections where there are traffic signals. This is almost never a traction problem until it starts to rain. Rain washes the oil over the road making the pavement slippery. If the rain continues the oil slick is eventually washed off. Depending on conditions this might take 30 min. or so. If it's possible to refrain from riding during the first half our of rainfall it's probably a good idea. After that there's significantly more traction available. Plastic and /or painted surfaces, e.g., lane dividers, crosswalks, turn arrows, manhole covers are like ice when wet. I avoid them like the plague. In fact I dislike riding on them even when dry.
> 
> .


+1 if you went down at that speed something was really slick and I would think no tire could have prevented the fall. I went down in a similar fashion on a dry day when I hit a slick patch of the worst smelling greasy yuck ever spewed out of a garbage truck. 

If money is not a big problem, for peace of mind, change the tires. My only experience with Bontrager tires was short lived because I immediately recycled them. And as already mentioned, try lowering your PSI. I've been using Conti Gatorskins for wet commutes because I always seemed to flat in the rain. Flat resistance is good but they don't roll like PR3s. The 4 Season is also a great suggestion, but I haven't tried them.


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## Roar

Yes, the 4 Seasons do seem to get a lot of good reviews. I am leaning toward them at the moment.

I think I will change the tires for peace of mind. The guy who said he broke his hip on his Bontragers did not inspire my confidence in these tires any further...I'd happily pay to stay upright and in one piece, though obviously changing the tires is only a part of the solution. 

Reducing PSI and generally being more careful are also in order.


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## Deadly Tedly

On my fixie commuter in Minneapolis, I liked Michelin Krylion tires at about 100 psi (I weigh 185). They are cheap, smooth slicks that never had a puncture or a pinch flat despite plenty of potholes. They also come in cool sidewall colors that can match your bike frame if you're lucky. Oh, how I miss bike commuting now that I work at a highway-bound office park in New England.

Since you were going "turning a corner from a dead stop", you were probably standing up and accelerating, even if you weren't hammering on the pedals. Doing that without paying attention to your weight distribution can put your weight off one side of the bike instead of over it, just as the rear wheel is trying to grip the ground to push the bike forward and needs your weight to keep friction with the road surface. The result is a rear wheel fishtail which can get right out from under you on wet, oily pavement or a wet metal cover. Pay attention to your weight distribution when it's wet, and if you are pushing down hard on the pedals around a turn, keep the bike upright and your weight over the wheels, and rely on turning the handlebars to get around the turn instead of leaning.


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## Roar

Yep. I think that is very likely that's what I was doing. I am not crazy about that particular intersection, so I am always trying to get away from it.


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## Mr. Versatile

Deadly Tedly said:


> On my fixie commuter in Minneapolis, I liked Michelin Krylion tires at about 100 psi (I weigh 185). They are cheap, smooth slicks ...QUOTE]
> Krylions are *CHEAP??* I use Michelin tires almost exclusively & the Pro Optimums & Krylions are my faves. IME they're terrific tires. But...cheap? They're not the most expensive, but at close to $50 ea. I wouldn't call them cheap. Just my $.02..........er, $50.00.


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## bmxguy29

Sorry to hear about your accident Roar! Good decision to decide to get new tyres..safety is so much more important than cost. Speaking of rain...does anyone know where I can get some form of 'cape' for my bike when it rains? I'm sure I've seen this before...sort of like a plastic cover that goes over both you and the bike when cycling in showers. Maybe like this but a little more protection at the side???


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## Roar

*Upate*

Hi guys -

I just thought I'd let you know that I got the Conti 4 Seasons. 

It's been pouring lately so I feel I can report back now. So far, no slipping. I declare them to be "grippy." :thumbsup: I really like them. (No flats, either, but it's really not been long enough to evaluate that substantively.)

Thanks for all the advice.

Roar

PS - I have reduced my speed around corners and avoid any sort of metal plate like the plague, so that's probably helping, too.


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