# LOTOJA Advice - One more Time – Please!



## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

Ok it’s been about a year since I posted my first questions for the race and received lots of good advice on nutrition, training, and logistics. Now my brain is on how to best race and finish this thing off.
My goals are very simple – 
1.	Don’t quit.
2.	Finish before the cutoff.
3.	Race for a respectable finish - top 50% of my start.
I was thinking to expend some energy to get over the climbs in as best shape possible than physically regroup and hopefully find a solid group to get to the finish. Is this a common approach to how it plays out? Is there a typical better approach/strategy? Or is it just survival?

All advice welcome.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Last time I did LOTOJA it was a race. You should try to stick with your pack. If you get dropped, you are gonna finish waay back. If your goal is to just do the distance you may as well not race, just find a recreational double century and ride that. I know, harsh! But real. You may not be a contender for the win...the winner will probably go from off the front, but you should strive to hang with the main group at least.
Some tips? Eat and drink effectively. If you don't have that wired by now, you won't finish well. It is just too long to "tough it out" on pure guts. LOTOJA is all about keeping fueled and hanging in. If you do get dropped, find some others to work with..once you get dropped, you probably won't catch back..

Enjoy the race! That is a great event (when the weather is tolerable) and you will have really done something when you finish.


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

Not harsh at all - I decided to do this one because it is a race. If the pack holds together in some form I feel good about a solid finish. I do feel like I have the food/fule wired and have focused on it the past several mths. 

Great advice and what I'm looking for - thanks.


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## scubad (Jun 22, 2004)

One more piece of advice. It's a long race and if you can't hang with your pack, then don't burn too many matches in order to hang. 

I find I only have so many matches to burn. If I use those all up at the beginning of a race/ride I truly suffer for it later.

Enjoy it and never quit!

ScubaD


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

scubad said:


> One more piece of advice. It's a long race and if you can't hang with your pack, then don't burn too many matches in order to hang.
> 
> I find I only have so many matches to burn. If I use those all up at the beginning of a race/ride I truly suffer for it later.
> 
> ...


This is I think where my question/hesitation comes from - I have done many long rides but never raced anything longer than 60 or so. On such a long race I think you have about the same number of matches to burn but in this race I think the separations will come before the half way point where the climbs (think burning matches here). Not rocket science. One of the key pieces I have not been able to nail down is if the "group" as gnarly 928 says actually holds together to that point.

Perfect scenario in my brain is a group of 20 "collecting" at the bottom of the last descent and bringing it home with a shoot out coming late in the day.

"Enjoy it and never quit!" - its going on my bike for the day - thanks


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## MJCBH (Nov 25, 2002)

*Good advice....any further advice on wheel choice?*

All good advice. If you are riding solo, without a team, try to find a group that you can pace yourself with and ride most of the day with. I've also burned too many matches before trying to hang with a particular group --- don't worry,there's plenty of riders on the road.

On a side note, any of you ever ridden a semi-aero wheel? I'm trying to decide between using my Flashpoint FP60s (about 58mm deep, carbon fairing with aluminum braking surface) vs Ksyrium SSC SL (about 200 grams lighter but not as aero). I've done a fair amount of climbing and windy rides on the carbon wheel and really haven't noticed the weight difference and haven't felt "thrown around" in the wind on the Flashpoints. Any input?

Overall, enjoy the ride and if you've prepared well, just go out and keep the rubber end down! Good luck to all


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

GH-Mike said:


> This is I think where my question/hesitation comes from - I have done many long rides but never raced anything longer than 60 or so. On such a long race I think you have about the same number of matches to burn but in this race I think the separations will come before the half way point where the climbs (think burning matches here). Not rocket science. One of the key pieces I have not been able to nail down is if the "group" as gnarly 928 says actually holds together to that point.
> 
> Perfect scenario in my brain is a group of 20 "collecting" at the bottom of the last descent and bringing it home with a shoot out coming late in the day.
> 
> "Enjoy it and never quit!" - its going on my bike for the day - thanks



Think of it this way: If you save your matches and don't stick, you will burn them all anyway, but you'll do it all alone at about mile 150 when you hit that headwind and long climb up from Alpine..or something. Every race is different..But one thing remains the same in all races...if you want to be a contender you have to at least be with the lead pack near the end. You must do what you can do...I wouldn't count on the whole bunch fragmenting...Unless someone comes with a big attitude the group is often pretty content to just crank out the miles until later on in the race...

In the race that I did, my first feed guy didn't get my bag to me, I missed the handup...I had to decide how to deal with that...In the first feed zone...forget that little town...I circled back , needing food and fluid.... and lost the pack, but got my food...Then I chased and chased, with the pack just ahead. At the top of the first climb I caught a fast tandem, who offered me a nice downhill draft back to my pack....probably cheating a little...but it enabled me to not Time trial for the remaining 180 + miles to the finish..I think I stuck till near Alpine, then I bonked big...Had my guys get me some cokes and a few snickers bars and I revived south of town to make it in in just under 10hrs..

If I'd lost the pack back in Utah..or was the first feed in Idaho...I probably would have finished in closer to 12 hrs...We were smoking-it and working a big double paceline most of the way...

I'd say do whatever you can to stick with the pack unless you have a big team..I only had one guy, who I told to leave me when I bonked...I almost caught him back before the finish because the attacks started in the Snake R. Canyon and the pack blew apart there...

I puked, right after I hit Teton Village...And slept for two days.. fun...I even caught myself looking at the race website again recently...after saying I'd never even consider anything so difficult after pulling it off that one time..


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

1st I’m going solo with the wife to feed me. No team but I would think that during a 10+hr race I’ll make a couple of friends. I’m with you guys – and in general it’s like any race just a lot longer. 1. You have to be with the group to have a shot and 2. You only have so many really hard efforts in your system. Believe me I’m going to try and stay with the main group but stay mindful of the cost of doing that. One last thought on staying with the group – I have looked at the finishing times of past years and they are relatively fast – Lots of 10 to 11.5hr finishes – sizable groups have to form(stay together) for this to be the case.

Gnarly -Puke - he!! I’ll probably puke at the start just to mess with my new “friends”. 

Coke and snickers as emergency sugar – just added to the list. I have my food down but didn’t think of bonk food.

First feed zone is in Preston Idaho.

MJCBH – Wheels - I saw your earlier thread on the wheel question – really when it comes to equipment I’m a big believer in riding things you have confidence in. If you don’t get blown around on your deep wheels and you are confident with performance and reliability go with them.


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

*Thanks!*

Gnarly, MJCBH, and Scubad - Just a quick “thank you” for your last minute advice and encouragement. Race went very well. No course record or podium finish but a respectable solid ride from a pack filler. I have ridden for close to 25 years and this was the one day I’m certain to remember from my cycling life. I hope each of you have at least one of these days on your bike.

Regards,
Mike


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## MJCBH (Nov 25, 2002)

*Good job*

Way to go Mike.....congrats! Glad it was a "day to remember"


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Yeah, great job. An accomplishment you will never forget.

I still remember our LOTOJA, in fact, we (my longtime SO, a gal who also did the race in just under 10hrs, way back when..) were just recalling our race experiences back in the '90s. I doubt we'd match those times now..but that is certainly one of the highlights of my bike racing experiences, 
Don Hanson


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## riderRuss (Dec 16, 2009)

Thanks for the post. I'm looking at doing it in 2010 for my first time. (This is my first post). What do you guys usually eat along the way?


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## GH-Mike (Jan 20, 2007)

*More than you asked for*

Based on your question you must have figured out that this is one of the two most important items you should concentrate on in your preparation the other is quality training miles.

But specifically to your question. – experiment over the next nine months and figure out what will work best for you. I cannot over state the importance of nutrition during your training and day of the ride. So here is what I learned and did.

First – My goal was to consume 400 – 600 calories an hour - this was much harder to do than you may think. And I’m guessing it landed much closer to 400.

I learned last year during training that my body hated too much “processed food” (power bars, gels etc) what it did like and what I used was a combination of “normal food” and water bottles filled with calories. Normal food included bananas, granola bars, PB&J on whole wheat beagles, and fig newtons. I loved the PB&J’s but they are a little hard to eat. So let’s say 250 cals came from this stuff. The other 250 or so came from water bottles. At each supported feed zone I picked up 2 new bottles one with water and one with supplements. The supplemented bottle had 200 cals of malt dextrin and about 50 cal of electrolyte (cytomax grape). Again I tried just about everything I could get my hands on last year and this is what my body liked. 
The PB&J thing – this was really important to my system and I wish I had more science to explain it. As rides get longer my stomach becomes very acidic which I think is common. The beagles seemed to help settle my stomach and provide complex carbs for energy. Once I latched on to this one item I was really able to comfortably punch my mileage up. I have a buddy who uses plain whole wheat waffles for the same reason.

Do not underestimate your training miles. Quantity and quality. A half dozen of my training rides were harder than the race. Not as long but solo with LOTS of climbing. If lotoja was my happiest moment on a bike the day I rode solo 175 with 24,000 up was maybe the proudest. Point is, you want to really enjoy the race not just suffer through it.

You will absolutely not regret your decision to take this on – Let us know how it goes.

Mike


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## riderRuss (Dec 16, 2009)

@Mike

Thanks so much. I've noticed the same about processed foods... (they give me serious gas) but maybe that could help. 

It's too cold to get in good rides right now, but I just picked up a CycleOps trainer so I can put in some miles while it's cold. 

Solo 175? Wow!!! I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks again.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Ok, reviving this old thread. I have another question related to this race as this is my first time doing it and I have not pre-rode the climbs. I have a bit of an equipment question. I normally ride a compact double setup on my Trek 50/34 12-27T but recently picked up a used Scott CR1 Pro with a standard double 53/39 11-25T setup. For some reason I seem to climb a bit easier/faster on the Scott which seems unlogical since I really suck at climbing. The fit is almost the same on the bikes so I guess it's a geometry thing. The climb I base this one is around 7 miles where I gain over 2000 fT. Today I will even do a longer ride on the Scott where I'll pull over 4000 ft in 22 miles. My question is should I setup the Scott with a compact setup since it seems to fit me better for the climbs, use the Trek, or just leave the Scott with the double and do it. How steep are the climbs really in LOTOJA? Thanks,


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

jamesdak said:


> Ok, reviving this old thread. I have another question related to this race as this is my first time doing it and I have not pre-rode the climbs. I have a bit of an equipment question. I normally ride a compact double setup on my Trek 50/34 12-27T but recently picked up a used Scott CR1 Pro with a standard double 53/39 11-25T setup. For some reason I seem to climb a bit easier/faster on the Scott which seems unlogical since I really suck at climbing. The fit is almost the same on the bikes so I guess it's a geometry thing. The climb I base this one is around 7 miles where I gain over 2000 fT. Today I will even do a longer ride on the Scott where I'll pull over 4000 ft in 22 miles. My question is should I setup the Scott with a compact setup since it seems to fit me better for the climbs, use the Trek, or just leave the Scott with the double and do it. How steep are the climbs really in LOTOJA? Thanks,


Do you live in the Salt Lake area? Salt River is the only steep one...and even then it's only 8%-9%....nothing to crazy. 

Can you climb a 9% grade for a couple miles at the end of a tough century? That's basically what this will be...with another 100 miles to go afterword. I love this race...it's my favorite one of the year.


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

Cyclin Dan said:


> Do you live in the Salt Lake area? Salt River is the only steep one...and even then it's only 8%-9%....nothing to crazy.
> 
> Can you climb a 9% grade for a couple miles at the end of a tough century? That's basically what this will be...with another 100 miles to go afterword. I love this race...it's my favorite one of the year.


Very true. LOTOJA isn't all that bad if your training consists of the climbs in Northern Utah. Big Mountain, Monte Cristo, Trappers Loop, Hogback, North Ogden Divide, Old Snowbasin Rd, Powder Mountain (still haven't got around to this one yet). Lots of miles with those climbs thrown in and you're all set.


ETA - To answer your question, I ride a 50/36 12-25. I think I'd bump up to a 12-26 if I went to a 53/39. A little taller geared on the low end, but I think I could HTFU.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Hi Dan - I live north up in the Ogden valley. Did 100 miles today with the double setup. Climbing over 20 miles to the top of Monte Cristo and then around mile 67 headed up for a 5mile climb up Trappers Loop. Road Signs on Trappers say 8% grade, my computer always registers a max grade of 13% on this climb so who knows.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

I would be conservative and go with the lowest gearing possible. Mainly because when your body gets worn down from the long mileage, it's nice to have some bailout gears. 

I haven't done Lotoja, but have done the much logistically easier Tour de Park City, and i chuckled when I saw a guy in my group with an MTB cassette. He seemed to be the smart one when we hit the steep grades at nearly 11,000 feet elevation (legs put out less power at higher elevation). 

BTW, I'm a 160 pound Masters Cat 3 and a compact-25 seems to work well for a very large percentage of Utah races (road races, circuits, and crits).


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Yeah, I'm thinking along those lines too. Tour de Park city was supposed to be a measure of fitness for me a couple of weeks ago but I was sick the day of the ride and it showed in my time. I actually didn't feel that drained after the ride but I just had nothing for the climbs. My average speed was actually down almost a full mph for the previous year. I think I'm going to grab the compact crank off my Trek and put it on the Scott since the Scott does seem to climb better. May move over the Zen wheels too as they are close to a pound lighter than the ones currently on the Scott. Funny how I just bought the Scott to be my flat course rider due to standard double and here I am changing that out.


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

Maybe just buy a new chain (for length) and put the 12-27 cassette on the new bike and keep the standard 53/39. The 53F - 12R combo will be a benefit on the steeper downhill where you might not want to tuck the whole time. I think your 34F - 27R combo was way too low geared if you're a decent climber. I've been perfectly happy with my 36F - 25R and I climb everything I mentioned above. I'm only 155 pounds though...but I am old at 39.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

175 pounds and 47 years old. Bad year for the weight as I was flirting with 159-160 this time last year.


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

You'll be fine if you're climbing Monte Cristo and the North side of Trappers Loop. I live just south of the hill from you. Perfect location for training right outside the door.

Did you get your email this morning? My start group leaves at 6:49.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

I did, same start time. Hopefully you're not the guy that came out of the sort of new subdivision above the Sinclair two weekends ago and then totally blew me away going back over Trappers, LOL! Had about 60 miles in by then but made me realize how badly I suck at climbing...:blush2:


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

Yeah, I live in that subdivision above the Sinclair. I have a black bike. Not sure if it was me though. I figured out your number so I'll look for you at the start line.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Man I am worried, just can't figure out my nutrition. Did 117 miles yesterday with over 7000 ft of climbing but once again around 4 hours in my stomach gets really upset. Late into the 6th hour and I could not even keep water down. Really strange, legs still feel fresh and HR is only in the 120s so does not seem like over exertion. Seems like no matter what I try to eat and drink it always happens on the longer rides. Never had this problem as a marthoner. Had a couple of races back in the day where I didn't even train right and had to get by on gutting it out and taking in lots of carbs during the event and never got sick. Don't know why this is happening on the bike and I've ran out of time now to figure it out. If this happens in LOTOJA no way I'm getting through that last 90 miles or so...

Did ride the compact double setup on the Trek today but tried to never go to the 24 and 27 gears. Only hit it for about a mile during a final climb at around 105 miles when I was feeling really sick. It still seems like the power just does not get down with the Trek like it does on the Scott. Just seems harder to maintain momentum with the Trek, hard to explain just a subjective feel I guess. Like while climbing each stroke on the Trek is sort of jerky like it just doesn't want to keep going while the Scott is just smooth steady, weird.


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

That's not good at all.

Nutrition - What are you eating the night before the ride, the morning before the ride, and what are you eating during the ride? On longer rides, I like to bring PB&J's and other "real" food. I use EFS Liquid Shot, Clif Bars, and Stinger Waffles too. For liquids, regardless of ride length, I use one bottle of water and one bottle of EFS. I'll bring a couple ziplock baggies with premeasured amounts of EFS in them. Obviously during LOTOJA, my support will have prepared bottles and food ready for me.

Bikes - Do your frames have the same types of bottom brackets? If so, you could swap the compact to the Scott.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Before rides I always have oats with apple, raisins, pecans, wheat germ, flax and a tad of honey. During the rides I alternate between water and watered down sports drink. But have been varying this to see if it's the problem. Food has varied also as I try to figure it out. Gels, power bars, bananas, PB&J(no go peanut butter makes me upset), ham and cheese sandwhiches, and lots of other stuff. Body always starts having problems at 4 hours or so. 

You know I did get taking out Saturday a week ago. Whacked from behind with something (teenager in white pickup) crashed and knocked out. Some lady woke me up. Some concussion issues last week. Maybe I'm still messed up and that why I actually puked??

I can switch cranksets. The Trek is a BB90 (press in bearings) but a standard crank works on both. I am thinking the compact crank on the Scott but leaving the 11-25T vs using a 12-27T.. Seems I spent more time high-cadence pedaling down Monte Cristo than tucking due to a headwind. So I'd like that tad bit more speed over easy spinning up.


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## Clyde250 (Feb 24, 2007)

I do the Allen Lim rice cakes. Its the first time I actually enjoy eating on the bike. I try to eat real food the first half of the ride, I have been using the EFS and that has been good for me. If things are going badly, I go to a combination of Coke Classic, Powerbar double caffiene gels, and pickle juice. 

Baked Oatmeal from allrecipes.com Halve the butter, cut some of the brown sugar and do a few cups of frozen fruit. Delicious.

Head trauma can cause nausea I'd get that checked out pronto.

The climbing on Lotoja is not a big deal. Most of it is 3-5% grades with a few 6-9% stretches that aren't very long.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Yeah, what is weird is that I did a 1000 mile ride with around 5000 ft of climbing the day after getting my bell rung with no problems. Then that Monday, I was having all sorts of mental issues, forget a number I had just entered 5 seconds ago, etc. And the nausea thing has been going in since last year really...

Not too worried about the climbs. I am surrounded by mountains so even though I am slow I can get up about anything within reason.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

jamesdak said:


> ... I did a 1000 mile ride ...


That's pretty far... typo?


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Yeah, lets try 100 miles, LOL!


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

jamesdak said:


> You know I did get taking out Saturday a week ago. Whacked from behind with something (teenager in white pickup) crashed and knocked out. Some lady woke me up.


Since we ride the same roads, would you mind going into greater detail about this? Where did this happen? Did you call the police? Do you know make, model, and year of truck? Loud exhaust? Diesel or gasoline? Big tires? Jacked up?

Just having people pull up along side of me and honking freaks me out. I couldn't imagine somebody actually throwing or swinging something at me.

I'm sorry this happened to you.


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

White pickup with a younger dude leaning out the window. Don't really know more than that. Did call the Sheriff but not much could be done. Unfortunately it seems to be par for the course over here in the summer. Usually younger folks over here partying at the lake and being stupid. I've spit on, had drinks thrown at me, a battery, run off the road on purpose, etc. Sometimes this ol' retired soldier feels like carrying a gun... 

I love winter because even though I still ride outside on the slick roads the locals are so more respectful. My usual route takes me along the Huntsville side of the reservoir so not much skier traffic in the winter and the locals give me lots of room. 

I ride with the "dork" mirror on my helmet now just to keep a better eye out. Funny thing (sort of) is that the worse days up here are when the RAGNAR comes through. You'd think people would be real careful but just not the case. 2 years ago a support vehicle pulled off the shoulder right into me, I was able to just push off the truck. Then last year in Liberty a lady went right around me, pulled onto the side, and opened her door and stepped out right into me. I tore up my hand on her SUV but ripped he leg pretty good with the bike. Then while trying to get back home I got stuck in a line of support vehicles. Was in between two trucks waiting my turn at a stop sight instead of running the shoulder. After about 8 or 9 start and stops the driver being me was too busy yakking and ran into me. I saw it coming and accellerated to the side but he still popped my back wheel good. Testimony to the strength of Zens wheels!! 

All and all though, I'll take riding up in the valley over in town any day of the week. Just get those few jerks to deal with a couple of times a year.


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## numchuks (Feb 8, 2008)

jamesdak said:


> Before rides I always have oats with apple, raisins, pecans, wheat germ, flax and a tad of honey. During the rides I alternate between water and watered down sports drink. But have been varying this to see if it's the problem. Food has varied also as I try to figure it out. Gels, power bars, bananas, PB&J(no go peanut butter makes me upset), ham and cheese sandwhiches, and lots of other stuff. Body always starts having problems at 4 hours or so.
> up.


I'd cut out the wheat germ and flax before rides. Fiber before exercise is not good and delays stomach emptying. It's given me stomach cramps in the past. On a big ride like Lotoja I'd actually cut back on the fiber 1-2 days prior.


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

jamesdak, will you be at the start line? Or are you heading your doctor's advice?


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## jamesdak (Aug 22, 2010)

Guess I am listening to him. Bright light in the left eye causes pain still. Picked up my stuff in Kaysville this afternoon and keep making reasons why I should do it. But I also think back to my final marathon. Blew the right knee at mile nine and continued on to the end. Last time I ever ran so I know I need to listen to him and stop thinking with my old soldier "never quit" mindset. 

Sucks though, good luck and hopefully they let me back in next year.


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