# Contador vs. The Chicken vs. Others on Stage 14



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Holy stage!!!!! The finest battle in one of the best TDFs in recent years.

I mean, how many things happened in those last 15ks.

Sooo many players, so many battles, so many revelations. What's your highlights.

Bravo Rasmussen. Contador has an awesome victory salute.


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*Stage 14 - Sunday, July 22: Mazamet - Plateau-de-Beille, 197km*

*Results*


1 Alberto Contador (Spa) Discovery Channel
2 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank
3 Mauricio Soler (Col) Barloworld 0.36
4 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Discovery Channel 0.38
5 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 0.52
6 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 1.52
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor-Lotto 
8 Antonio Colom (Spa) Astana 2.23
9 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Astana
10 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 3.06

*General classification*

1 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank
2 Alberto Contador (Spa) Discovery Channel 2.23
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) Predictor-Lotto 3.04
4 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Discovery Channel 4.25
5 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana 4.38
6 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 5.50
7 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Astana 6.58
8 Mikel Astarloza (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
9 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne
10 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel-----

fc


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

francois said:


> Holy stage!!!!! The finest battle in one of the best TDFs in recent years.
> 
> I mean, how many things happened in those las 15ks.
> 
> ...


THAT stage was le tour! The climbers going all out! Discovery bringing Hincampie and Popo back to put everyone else on the hot seat. 
That crazy kid Solor! I like him. 

I was suprised to see Cadel crack. Sastre did a good job hanging in there. HE got so pissed at LL and Cadel for not helping him in the end. LL did a good job of coming around at the end. Rasmussen showed exactly why he's wearing the yellow jersey. He put in the TT of his life yesterday and then took second today. nice one!

Contador dominated! omg. He is good. LL said it best at the end of today's stage, "he's a real contendor.".


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

can this yr le tour won the the climbers ala pantani???

i say there's a chance..


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

oh yeah. big ups to Rabobank team doing good work. Menchov did well and young Dekker, also.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

teh moreon said:


> oh yeah. big ups to Rabobank team doing good work. Menchov did well and young Dekker, also.


It's going to happen. Rasmussen and Contador are highly favored now.

Given that there's another similar ITT coming up, the virtual standings, duplicating the 1st ITT are:
--------
After Stage 13, Assuming
- Same time gaps exist going into next TT
- Everyone performs identical to today's 54km TT
1. Evans
2. Rasmussen +0:43
3. Kloden +1:59
4. Contador +2:36
5. Vinokourov +2:53
6. Kashechkin +3:53
7. Leipheimer +4:04
8. Astarloza +5:37
9. Sastre +6:36
10. Kirchen +6:36
11. Mayo +9:46
12. Valverde +9:50
-----------

So Rasmussen needed 43 more seconds from Cadel. Contador needed 1:53 from Rasmussen. Cadel got smoked today. The most serious contender now is Contador.

fc


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

teh moreon said:


> d. Rasmussen showed exactly why he's wearing the yellow jersey. He put in the TT of his life yesterday and then took second today. nice one!
> 
> .


and rode a practically perfect tactical race. didn't go off on an energy killing flyer, did chase down a few attacks, but never really put the hammer down until he had to, once Evans, and then later Levi were dropped. And Contador was the only one who could stay with him. 

If he can do that again the next two stages in the mountains, he just may build up enough time to survive the last TT. But Contador looks like the man to beat. He's young, and who knows how he'll fare the next two stages, but he shows no signs of being fatigued. 

But Rasmussen didn't look the least bit in difficulty today.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

teh moreon said:


> oh yeah. big ups to Rabobank team doing good work. Menchov did well and young Dekker, also.


Werd. It was good to see Thomas Dekker earning his bread for a change and Menchov clearly accepting the facts as they stand. Boogerd worked hard as well, great teamwork! :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2007)

teh moreon said:


> I was suprised to see Cadel crack.


At least we know he is_ clean_.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

rufus said:


> If he can do that again the next two stages in the mountains, he just may build up enough time to survive the last TT. But Contador looks like the man to beat. He's young, and who knows how he'll fare the next two stages, but he shows no signs of being fatigued.


Rasmussen already has enough buffer to win the race!! 

He needed a 1:43 gap over Cadel. Now he has 3:04

Kloden and Contador need to make up about 2 minutes each in the mountains to nip him at the final TT.

So Chicken is in the driver's seat. He will try to pad his lead even more in the next two stages.

But of course, anything can happen.

fc


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

rogger said:


> Werd. It was good to see Thomas Dekker earning his bread for a change and Menchov clearly accepting the facts as they stand. Boogerd worked hard as well, great teamwork! :thumbsup:


forgot about Boogerd. Definitely nice seeminng him show up since he is retiring.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Definitely a chance and then some. A couple more big days in the pyrenees, and, if you look at the top 10, 6 would probably be considered climbing specialists. Of the others, only Evans still has any realistic chance to win the overall, and he is 3:00 and change back. On the last TT, he gained 1:40 some on Rasmussen.

Evans looked like he was hurting the whole stage. I was surprised to see Vino totally tank, but only because he'd pulled off so many impossible recoveries before; there's really only so much he can take.

Right now none of the results even have Vino, but I'm not sure he has any reason to continue now. Not that it will stop him...


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

It looks like the tour will be decided between Contador and Rasmussen. Of course anything can happen (crashes, blowouts etc.)
I wonder if there's a cycling shirt with a chicken drawn on it. The sales must be swelling right now.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

It was an unbelievable battle between Rabobank and Discovery. Rabobank was great and Discovery was awesome!

Popovych decimated the field. Even Levi attacked, then Contador countered.

"When Contador attacks, most riders look the other way."
-Sherwen

Contador broke Cadel and an unfriendlly alliance was formed between the chicken and Contador. We need a nickname for Contador btw. Bruyneel was the master on the earpiece. With about 1k to go, Contador stopped working. How did the youngster have such perfect tactics? I'm sure Bruyneel was yelling in his ear. DO NOT WORK. Rasmussen towed reluctantly and Contador won.

fc


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*Alberto's Nickname*



francois said:


> We need a nickname for Contador btw.


Okay...I'll throw one out there:idea:

_*The Ti-Cranium Kid *_


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## ClimbElYunque (Jun 21, 2005)

how about "Conti the Kid"!


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## cityeast (Sep 16, 2004)

francois said:


> We need a nickname for Contador btw.
> 
> fc


The Chicken Hawk?


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## R.Rice (Aug 23, 2004)

francois said:


> What's your highlights.


I have to admit regardless of all the fireworks that happened today amongst the GC guys that Soler kid put the biggest smile on my face.

He just seemed to be having a fun bike ride.Offering watter to the chicken?Bouncing around like mad.Every time they showed him he was doing something with a watter bottle it seemed.

He was definitely entertaining to watch.:thumbsup:


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

Today - Contador - Rass - BRILLIANT!


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

If I was Bruyneel I would drop a couple of my deadweight climbers<Lowe for starters> and sign Soler.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Johan should sign Evans as well. 

That said, I think Alberto is one heck of a great rider. 

And i'm actually really impressed with rasmussen coz I half expected or hoped that he might have given a lot in the TT at Albi such that he might suffer a bit today. Kudos to the guy nonetheless 

I'm really glad with Alberto Contador though. Best young rider in 2nd place for the GC? WOW. 2'23'' behind at that too and he can TT a little better than Rasmussen as well so we'll have to see how tomorrow plays out. Kinda like a Lewis Hamilton for Formula 1 in that sense (Debut season for Discovery, takes best young rider and would almost certainly keep the maillot blanc come the Champs-Elysees and now with a shot at the maillot jaune as well)

Kudos to the lad. 

A little disappointed with Levi Leipheimer though. I hope he has a better day tomorrow. My strong guess is that Contador is the man to protect for DSC and that the team will go all out for him and unless Levi can pull off something spectacular, I don't see that changing come the next two Pyrenean stages. 

Thoughts anyone? 

Oh yeah Boogerd gave a hell of a ride today for Rasmussen as well actually. Pity Cadel Evans has no support group strong enough.

Discovery really looks good with Popo also showing good form. I expect 3 (4 if Hincapie can keep with it for a little longer) Discovery riders to be up there with the lead group or in contention come the final climb.

Pity Chechu Rubeira didn't ride this tour though. What happened to TD (Tom Danielson) anyway?

I say Discovery has a great shot at the Overall Team and Alberto is poised to take the maillot jaune should his form maintain and Yaroslav, Levi and George be able to work for him. 

My only complaint is that i cant watch the motha friggin race live.. :mad2:


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## cityeast (Sep 16, 2004)

It is a a shame about Rogers and Vino crashing. I think the GC contention would have been looked even more exciting.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

francois said:


> Rasmussen already has enough buffer to win the race!!
> 
> He needed a 1:43 gap over Cadel. Now he has 3:04
> 
> ...


I'm just not sure if Rasmussen can turn in as good a time trial as he did yesterday. the moe time the better, but I don't think he needs to attack to get it. Just like today, he can let the other teams like Disco try to shake the peloton, and just go with them. 

Another stage or two like this, with the constant attacks, and i don't think Cadel can hold the pace. But Rasmussen has shown no signs of strain, and ought to be able to follow any attacks, barring a Mayo or Vino type bad day.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

R.Rice said:


> I have to admit regardless of all the fireworks that happened today amongst the GC guys that Soler kid put the biggest smile on my face.
> 
> He just seemed to be having a fun bike ride.Offering watter to the chicken?Bouncing around like mad.Every time they showed him he was doing something with a watter bottle it seemed.
> 
> He was definitely entertaining to watch.:thumbsup:



Soler! What a wildcard player to spice up that final climb. It was so entertaining to see him dance with the greats.

I suspect he might be a slightly richer man next year.

I'm fairly convinced he'll take the Polka dot jersey. 

fc


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> A little disappointed with Levi Leipheimer though. I hope he has a better day tomorrow. My strong guess is that Contador is the man to protect for DSC and that the team will go all out for him and unless Levi can pull off something spectacular, I don't see that changing come the next two Pyrenean stages.
> 
> Thoughts anyone?



I'm not sure whey everybody is disappointed and bagging on Leipheimer.... 

He's #4 overall in the GC, in the first Pyrenees climb he finishes 4th, 40 seconds behind his teammate who won. During the final climb, him and Contador worked together helping one another out while in the group. Levi attacked which made Rasmussen go, then Contador attacked and was able to get the separation which ultimately got him away from the group with Rasmussen and the win.

Leipheimers only fault is he's not Lance Armstrong and doesn't have the hill accelerations he did. That and he's a nicer guy....which it seems nobody really likes nice guys.

Levi is where he needs to be. Another hard day tomorrow, a rest day, then another mountain top finish and he very well could be #2 or #3 in the GC at that time.....What more do people want from the guy?

The last ITT is flat, which is going to kill Rasmussen and may hurt Contador. The first ITT was a climbing TT which favored the climbers, seems like a lot of people have forgotten that.

My guess....Team Discovery works for several goals right now.

1. Protect both Levi and Contador.
2. Try and get either Levi or Contador the GC win. There is still a lot of racing to do and Rasmussen and Contador battling it out will take a lot of energy out of them during the last week.
3. Keep the white jersey for Contador at a minimum.
4. Get the team title if at all possible.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

the_rydster said:


> At least we know he is_ clean_.


nice. made me smile


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

It would have beeen nice to see mick rogers in the mix. i don't know if he'd have any support. but neither does Cadel for that matter. 
I wonder if mayo, kloden and valverde will come back tomorrow to even out the table. With things seemingly cleaner, there's gonna be good and bad days for everyone. This is a great tour though. I'm very entertained...


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

what happened to Vino??


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## tkavan01 (Jun 24, 2004)

of course with contador, disco can afford to have him fly up the mountain at an unsustainable pace, forcing the chicken to cover, and possibly blowing up, levi can continue to chug along and catch the two of them later if they are toast, then if the chicken has truly taosted himself and can't hold on he's toast...


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

*Wow*

what a stage.... I guess the chicken has now proved he can gain some time on the mt.s wearing the yellow jersery!!! As many said he couldn't... and it looks like Contador is the only one that can climb with him... looks like a two horse race now... 

but still 2 mt. stages to go and anyone of them can still 'crack'... and how much reserve do Ras and Contador still have left... lots of racing to go!! I thought Levi held tough. 

I was also way impressed with Solor, very cool!!


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

My two cents: I thought it was awesome to see the old USPS-scorch-the-Earth style climbing at work at the base of Beille. It was great to see Hincapie at the front of the remaining yellow jersey train, then Popo took over, then even Levi took over briefly -- together (with some help from Rabobank) they left so much carnage in their wake -- all to set up Contador. This is precisely what they did on the last stage this March into Nice to put Contador in yellow at Paris-Nice. I think tomorrow's stage will probably belong to a breakaway rider(s) that aren't close to the yellow, but I thought it was also interesting to see Rasmussen go after Soler when Soler attacked. I also see Disco protecting Levi and trying to isolate Cadel if possible to get Levi closer to the 3rd podium spot. Hell, two podium spots in Paris in lieu of one yellow isn't too shabby.

Barring injury or incident, and assuming he does a similar ITT next week, this is Rasmussen's Tour to lose. Who on Earth would have thought on the first mountain stage to Tignes that Chicken's polka-dot motivated breakaway that gave him two minutes on the rest of the GC field would be the decisive move of the Tour??? Imagine if Disco could have kept Contador glued to Rasmussen during that move! Oh well.


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## nachomc (Aug 31, 2006)

Todays' stage was really enjoyable. I was dissapointed that Rasmussen lost the sprint to Contador but I knew it would happen. Those last few miles, with the riders attacking, chasing, attacking, chasing, etc, were really entertaining. The crowd was making me a bit nervous though; They were really excited today and were really crowding the course. I got a good laugh when the guy running with the US flag on his back got between the cameraman (on motorcycle) and the riders, and the cameraman reaches a hand out, hits the guy and motions "get the hell out of the way!". The guy running by the riders in the thong bikini bottom was pretty funny too, if not fairly disgusting :lol:



R.Rice said:


> I have to admit regardless of all the fireworks that happened today amongst the GC guys that Soler kid put the biggest smile on my face.
> 
> He just seemed to be having a fun bike ride.Offering watter to the chicken?Bouncing around like mad.Every time they showed him he was doing something with a watter bottle it seemed.
> 
> He was definitely entertaining to watch.:thumbsup:


I agree. He's a blast to watch. The commentators mentioned today how he never even rode a bike until he was 17, and he got interested after attending a race in Colombia. His performance, especially given this is his first tour is amazing. He should be a lot of fun to watch over the next few years. If he keeps getting better, I can't see a reason why he couldn't win the tour during his career.


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

I was very impressed by Levi's finish today. Multiple times he went into the red, stayed calm, and fought back. His best Tour de France day ever, in my opinion. And it created a tremendous advantage for Disco. His ability to come in just 40 seconds down has to be affecting the Chicken between the ears. I have been one of many critics of Levi's lack of aggression but today his steadiness was a spot on counterpoint to Contador's bursts.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*How come?*



fastfullback said:


> I was very impressed by Levi's finish today. Multiple times he went into the red, stayed calm, and fought back. His best Tour de France day ever, in my opinion. And it created a tremendous advantage for Disco. His ability to come in just 40 seconds down has to be affecting the Chicken between the ears. I have been one of many critics of Levi's lack of aggression but today his steadiness was a spot on counterpoint to Contador's bursts.


Look, Levi had a good ride, but all of this talk about having such a "great" ride is BS. He LOST time today to Rasmussen and Contador, and he lost time in the TT the other day to Contador as well. Losing time, when it's a stage race, is a BAD thing. Is he having a better Tour this year than in year's past? Certainly. But if Contador, and Rassmussen continue riding as they did today, they are the class of the field thus far in the mountains. They've shown it, and now they have to keep it up, and we'll see if they can. Levi's ability to come in 40 seconds down on the Chicken isn't bothering him at all. Why? Because he came in 40 seconds down that's why. He did what he had to do today, and that was put time into the people who can pound him in a time trial, although he rode a decent one the other day, and there is no reason not to think that he can't do it again, because the 2nd ITT is less technical than the other one. I'm not saying that the man has it wrapped up, but you guys who keep saying that Levi did wonderful today, apparently don't understand getting dropped, and losing time in a stage race, when you can't afford to lose time.

Contador is stronger than Levi right now, and has been the whole Tour thus far. If they really want to win, they'll throw weight, and everything behind him, and keep Levi in reserve, just in case someone blows up (remember, Contador beat Levi by a full minute in the TT the other day).

The point of the tour is not to finish 4th, it's to win. Anything less than that, goal not accomplished.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

fastfullback said:


> His ability to come in just 40 seconds down has to be affecting the Chicken between the ears.


I would think the only guy Rasmussen is giving much consideration to is Contador?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

magnolialover said:


> Look, Levi had a good ride, but all of this talk about having such a "great" ride is BS. He LOST time today to Rasmussen and Contador, and he lost time in the TT the other day to Contador as well. Losing time, when it's a stage race, is a BAD thing. Is he having a better Tour this year than in year's past? Certainly. But if Contador, and Rassmussen continue riding as they did today, they are the class of the field thus far in the mountains. They've shown it, and now they have to keep it up, and we'll see if they can. Levi's ability to come in 40 seconds down on the Chicken isn't bothering him at all. Why? Because he came in 40 seconds down that's why. He did what he had to do today, and that was put time into the people who can pound him in a time trial, although he rode a decent one the other day, and there is no reason not to think that he can't do it again, because the 2nd ITT is less technical than the other one. I'm not saying that the man has it wrapped up, but you guys who keep saying that Levi did wonderful today, apparently don't understand getting dropped, and losing time in a stage race, when you can't afford to lose time.
> 
> Contador is stronger than Levi right now, and has been the whole Tour thus far. If they really want to win, they'll throw weight, and everything behind him, and keep Levi in reserve, just in case someone blows up (remember, Contador beat Levi by a full minute in the TT the other day).
> 
> The point of the tour is not to finish 4th, it's to win. Anything less than that, goal not accomplished.


Levi did exactly what he needed to do today, the fact that people can't see that astonishes me. He was the perfect leader of the team.

He didn't attack Contador because he knew Contador could win today. Why would he attack at that time? A Spanish rider on his own team in the Pyrenees riding for a stage win and making the GC leader work his butt off to stay with him. What's not to like about that? 

He gave a teammate glory, put time on all his rivals except Rasmussen, stayed in contention and didn't complain about anything.

If Contador can keep it up great for him, if Rasmusen can keep up great for him, however nobody has expended less energy in this tour than Levi to this point. He has rode an almost perfect race.

When it comes to 3 week tours such as the Tour it's all about energy conservation. This last week is going to be killer. A tough stage tomorrow, a rest day, then another mountain top finish, two fairly flat days and a long/flat ITT (something Rasmusen can't do well).

People are counting Levi out and are enamored by Contador, which is great, because it takes a lot of pressure off of Levi.

The way he's riding he will be on the podium, which is quite an accomplishment. The question is whether it will be 1, 2 or 3.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Well, I must say I'm a bit disappointed. I didn't think Kloden would be dropped today. 

I think Rasmussen winning the tour would be a terrible thing right now. The doping rumors surrounding him are going to get much much worse if he wins. The sport doesn't need this two years in a row!

As for the rest of the tour, I suspect stage 16 is going to be the decider. It's the day after a rest day and with a mountain top finish. If any of the potential GCers want a chance, they are going to have to crack Rasmussen then.

I think the gaps will be bigger in the final TT, but Kloden needs to be within 3 minutes if he has any hope (same with Cadel). Levi and Contador would have to be closer than that.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Highlights: Rasmussen, Contador, Soler, Levi, Bruyneel, Popovych, Hincapie, Rabo
We've talked about most of them. 
- Popovych was the haymaker who decimated the field
- Bruyneels tactics were brilliant. "Kloden is dropped. Go popo, go!!"
- Hincapie pulled the train to the base of the mountain. Why did he do this? To catch the breakaway and allow the Contador to win it. Success!
- Rabobank was there for their leader

Lowlights:
- Vino. nuff said
- Cadel. Cracked like an egg. The tour was his to lose as he had the 'virtual' lead with the upcoming TT. He cracked and now has little confidence to go on the attacks that he needs for upcoming stages. Where the heck was Horner?
- Kloden. Diminished his chances of winning.
- Mayo. Disappointing
- Valverde. Embarassing

fc


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Oh I hate to say this..............*



francois said:


> Highlights: Rasmussen, Contador, Soler, Levi, Bruyneel, Popovych, Hincapie, Rabo.......fc


Looks like francois has been touting the right horse all along. :blush2:


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

I see what you're saying, magnolialover, but winning the stage/gaining time on the MJ is not the only way to have a "great" ride in this situation. Levi's typical low-visibility style was a great foil to Contador's very visible explosiveness. Together they baited and baited Rasmussen into how many accelerations? And for many K's, whenever he caught one he wouldn't have to look far to find the other, like sharks in the water. 

Will it work, wear down the Chicken, and deliver one of them to the top step? Maybe not. But I think it is a great strategy _that will take more than one stage to pay off_ and, given their differing experience, would bet that Levi had a hand in making sure today went as well as it did.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

MB1 said:


> Looks like francois has been touting the right horse all along. :blush2:


Even a blind dog finds a bone now and again? 

Not to jinx Francois (and Rasmussen) but it looks like someone will have a bunch of new jerseys in a few weeks time...


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

MB1 said:


> Looks like francois has been touting the right horse all along. :blush2:





SilasCL said:


> Even a blind dog finds a bone now and again?
> 
> Not to jinx Francois (and Rasmussen) but it looks like someone will have a bunch of new jerseys in a few weeks time...



Ha, ha. My spies told me Rasmussen was seen training on the TT bike. Didn't you guys know he was soft-pedaling on the prologue. That guy was definitely downplaying his ITT.

Disco is a powerful and smart team. And Contador is the only guy on the peloton that can drop Rasmussen. So I hope Rasmussen can hold it together.

Rasmussen will not do as well on the next pancake ITT. But then neither will Contador and Cadel.

fc


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

cityeast said:


> It is a a shame about Rogers and Vino crashing. I think the GC contention would have been looked even more exciting.


This isn't?


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

francois said:


> Highlights: Rasmussen, Contador, Soler, Levi, Bruyneel, Popovych, Hincapie, Rabo
> We've talked about most of them.
> - Popovych was the haymaker who decimated the field
> - Bruyneels tactics were brilliant. "Kloden is dropped. Go popo, go!!"
> ...


I may be wrong. But I think Horner & Hincampie fell off close to the time. He was Cadel's only real help. I'm fairly suprised Val tanked.


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

Ok.. cynic talking.. am I the only one who watched Saunier Duval annihilate themselves and their top rider on GC on the Pailhères and thought someone (probably Disco) must've been paying them well today. It worked if that's the case - Evans said that was a big part of why he was hurting later on and it got rid of Vino and probably was a problem for Kloden. I guess it popped Hincapie and Popo as well so maybe the conspiracy theorist in me is seeing too much into Saunier's bad tactics.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

francois said:


> Ha, ha. My spies told me Rasmussen was seen training on the TT bike. Didn't you guys know he was soft-pedaling on the prologue. That guy was definitely downplaying his ITT.
> 
> Disco is a powerful and smart team. And Contador is the only guy on the peloton that can drop Rasmussen. So I hope Rasmussen can hold it together.
> 
> ...


Yep, it'll come down to two more tough mountain stages to see if Contador or Evans can drop Rasmussen. If not, maybe Contador can take enough time in the TT, certainly possible. Rasmussen looks good though.

My guess is that stage 16 (after the rest day) will shake things up a bit. Mountain top finish and possibly funny legs after the day off. Expect some surprises there.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

fastfullback said:


> His ability to come in just 40 seconds...


...and after all those hours on a bike seat!!! He probably has a cutout in his saddle, I'm guessing.

Leaving out the comma after "in" certainly makes for a more interesting read, though!


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

gray8110 said:


> Ok.. cynic talking.. am I the only one who watched Saunier Duval annihilate themselves and their top rider on GC on the Pailhères and thought someone (probably Disco) must've been paying them well today. It worked if that's the case - Evans said that was a big part of why he was hurting later on and it got rid of Vino and probably was a problem for Kloden. I guess it popped Hincapie and Popo as well so maybe the conspiracy theorist in me is seeing too much into their Saunier's bad tactics.


I think I may be even more cynical. I thought about maybe Saunier Duval trying to get Kloden for next year--and was actually working for him. They stopped working once Vino got dropped. In any case, I hope they weren't working for Mayo! Ouch!


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## Pinarel00 (Jul 23, 2006)

Okay, so while the TdF is about energy dosing and riding smart, LL does not inspire great confidence, because as sports fans, we want to see virtuosity that can define the context of the struggle. LL embodies mere competence waiting for someone more talented to falter, and that is exactly why he is a top 10 guy, but NOT a champion (At the TdF level)...

Again, if his strategy is to continue to ride and expend as little energy as possible, then fine- go right ahead...But its a loser strategy when it results in you losing time on your competitors, (like yesterday AND today) period....Don't get me wrong, LL is a superb athlete, better than 99.998% of any other cyclist in the world, (without question also including me!) but this is the Tour baby! The best of the best, of the physiologic freaks out there, and waiting for them to wilt so that you can win the spoils will not get you anywhere...Well, maybe 6th (remember it was LL who lost a few places on final GC because his infuriatingly conservative style had him working a slide rule to figure out how many sprint points he would get if he just played it safe....While LL forgot to "carry a one", and dropped his slide rule, Vino, a CHAMPION just goes out on the Champs, and WINS the Frickin' race, and does the math of a stage victory, while knocking LL a few rungs down on GC- Again, "riding smart" LL style gains you NOTHING in this crowd baby! Do the math on THAT!)

So to competent players like Sastre and LL (Ironic how pissed Sastre was at LL's refusal to work today- Matched the anger LL felt with SD rider a few stages ago, yes? Kharma is a Bi#[email protected]!) who cannot, or will not TAKE the race, who insist on letting the race be shaped by others will always be exactly what they are, and to this there is no mystery- Competent with no threat of virtuosity...

What they WANT to be is more like Ras...Another guy who is happy to let you underestimmate him, happy to fly under the radar, happy to defer, UNTIL the time comes when the Race is to be TAKEN, and then he is a steely eyed assassin....Keeps his Head down to max time on his winning stage...Trying to make AC work in the Last K....Relentlessly attacking Cadel until the man damn near fell of his bike....Putting the smack down on a mostly uphill TT (Although he lucked out a bot with the weather, but CHAMPIONS make their luck!) Allowing Soler his head today- briefly- forcing AC to chase, and the drafting off of him....THAT is the stuff of a CHAMPION...Stuff that LL just...

does....

not....

have...And never will....The man just ain't that good, relative to the very, very best...We should face facts

Wait! I THINK THAT LIT JUST LIT ONE OF HIS SAVED MATCHES JUST IN TIME TO SEE AC AND RAS MAKE THE RACE...Whatever....

LL is a superb domestique...Just pass AC, hincapie, Popo and the boys the bottles, stay in the back where its safe, and let the cyclists go out there and make the race, okay sweetheart?

Thanks!

LOL!


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

Pinarel00 said:


> Okay, so while the TdF is about energy dosing and riding smart, LL does not inspire great confidence, because as sports fans, we want to see virtuosity that can define the context of the struggle. LL embodies mere competence waiting for someone more talented to falter, and that is exactly why he is a top 10 guy, but NOT a champion (At the TdF level)...
> 
> Again, if his strategy is to continue to ride and expend as little energy as possible, then fine- go right ahead...But its a loser strategy when it results in you losing time on your competitors, (like yesterday AND today) period....Don't get me wrong, LL is a superb athlete, better than 99.998% of any other cyclist in the world, (without question also including me!) but this is the Tour baby! The best of the best, of the physiologic freaks out there, and waiting for them to wilt so that you can win the spoils will not get you anywhere...Well, maybe 6th (remember it was LL who lost a few places on final GC because his infuriatingly conservative style had him working a slide rule to figure out how many sprint points he would get if he just played it safe....While LL forgot to "carry a one", and dropped his slide rule, Vino, a CHAMPION just goes out on the Champs, and WINS the Frickin' race, and does the math of a stage victory, while knocking LL a few rungs down on GC- Again, "riding smart" LL style gains you NOTHING in this crowd baby! Do the math on THAT!)
> 
> ...



first. LL was wheelsucker/slash whiner. Then. He was lucky to be where he was. then. he would not advance on the GC and get past the lucky spot he was in. then. he is just a domestique. then. he lost time to his rivals (Evans and Sastre and Kloden not his competition?). then. he is not a champion, like rider X,Y, or Z. then. he's is not vino's equal, due to vino's ability to go for a meaningless 5th place attack. i love watching the conceptions come and go.

he may or may not win le tour. but he has beat down each and every misconception, so far. that must suck having to go further out on the hate limb. all effort to come up with a wicked bad analogy as to how he's not performing well at position 4 on the GC after stage 14.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Pinarel00 said:


> Okay, so while the TdF is about energy dosing and riding smart, LL does not inspire great confidence, because as sports fans, we want to see virtuosity that can define the context of the struggle. LL embodies mere competence waiting for someone more talented to falter, and that is exactly why he is a top 10 guy, but NOT a champion (At the TdF level)...
> 
> Again, if his strategy is to continue to ride and expend as little energy as possible, then fine- go right ahead...But its a loser strategy when it results in you losing time on your competitors, (like yesterday AND today) period....Don't get me wrong, LL is a superb athlete, better than 99.998% of any other cyclist in the world, (without question also including me!) but this is the Tour baby! The best of the best, of the physiologic freaks out there, and waiting for them to wilt so that you can win the spoils will not get you anywhere...Well, maybe 6th (remember it was LL who lost a few places on final GC because his infuriatingly conservative style had him working a slide rule to figure out how many sprint points he would get if he just played it safe....While LL forgot to "carry a one", and dropped his slide rule, Vino, a CHAMPION just goes out on the Champs, and WINS the Frickin' race, and does the math of a stage victory, while knocking LL a few rungs down on GC- Again, "riding smart" LL style gains you NOTHING in this crowd baby! Do the math on THAT!)
> 
> ...


Levi knows darn well he can't match the accellerations of Chicken and Contador on the climbs. It's a simple fact, and no amount of criticism or second guessing will suddenly alter Levi's physical limitations. 
I personally am not a big fan. But for a guy who knows his limitations, jumping from 8th to 4th, losing little time to superior climbers, and gaining time on superior time trialists (over a minute on Cadel) is a good thing. The fact he didn't jump from 8th to 1st shouldn't label his tour as a disappointment and should stop him from being proud of a possible highest ever Tour finish.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

Jesse D Smith said:


> Levi knows darn well he can't match the accellerations of Chicken and Contador on the climbs. It's a simple fact, and no amount of criticism or second guessing will suddenly alter Levi's physical limitations.
> I personally am not a big fan. But for a guy who knows his limitations, jumping from 8th to 4th, losing little time to superior climbers, and gaining time on superior time trialists (over a minute on Cadel) is a good thing. The fact he didn't jump from 8th to 1st shouldn't label his tour as a disappointment and should stop him from being proud of a possible highest ever Tour finish.


well, JDS, here's the problem. You are not a troll. So you wouldn't understand intentional short sightedness.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

I'm not a big LL fan, either... but I think Pineral00 has some other issues to deal with. I mean, seriously! Maybe he's just frustrated that Valverde and others haven't been able to keep up with the unexciting style of LL. In any case, I agree with others--he's riding his race and doing great. It isn't exciting--but he's clearly one of the very best riders this year. I blowout by Rasmussen on a stage and I'd say there's a good chance he wins or takes 2nd to his own teammate at the end.

I certainly don't see why Sastre gets any extra credit in Pinarel00's book. He has been even less exciting. Same goes for nearly every other major GC guy behind LL--beside maybe the Astana guys. Exciting isn't helping them, so far.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Pinarel00 said:


> While LL forgot to "carry a one", and dropped his slide rule, Vino, a CHAMPION just goes out on the Champs, and WINS the Frickin' race, and does the math of a stage victory, while knocking LL a few rungs down on GC- Again, "riding smart" LL style gains you NOTHING in this crowd baby! Do the math on THAT!)
> 
> What they WANT to be is more like Ras...Another guy who is happy to let you underestimmate him, happy to fly under the radar, happy to defer, UNTIL the time comes when the Race is to be TAKEN, and then he is a steely eyed assassin....Keeps his Head down to max time on his winning stage...Trying to make AC work in the Last K....Relentlessly attacking Cadel until the man damn near fell of his bike....Putting the smack down on a mostly uphill TT (Although he lucked out a bot with the weather, but CHAMPIONS make their luck!) Allowing Soler his head today- briefly- forcing AC to chase, and the drafting off of him....THAT is the stuff of a CHAMPION...



So, basically you agree with me.  

You want to see somebody that will sell everything for potential gain, but possible failure down the line. Watching Contador and Rasmussen was great today, however the amount of energy they expended will have been pretty high. Down the stretch it will interesting to see if it pays off or not.

Vino is pretty much worthless, why even bring him into the conversation. He hasn't won the tour, hasn't really come close. He makes stupid attacks, that everybody loves which has given him a name as an aggressive rider. He had one heck of a ITT at the cost of killing him the next day in the climbs. If that's what you want to see, then I guess that's what you want to see.

However, Levi has rode a great race to this point. It just gets more difficult from here. Contador probably doesn't know what he's in for this next week, Rasmussen has never had to hold the lead and protect it like he's having to do and both are expending a lot of energy in the time being.

As I said, people want see Lance, they don't want to see a guy that is conservative, rides safe and isn't overtly aggressive. He knows his abilities and today wasn't the day for him to attack. It was the day to ride within his limits, let Contador take on Rasmussen, stay close to Rasmussen overall, put time on the ITT guys and move up in the rankings.

In this day and age, the tour is different than it used to be in the past. There are no dominant riders at this time. There are no Lances, no Indurains, etc...Just a bunch of closely matched riders fighting it out for the GC win.

Levi is riding a smart race, whether it gets him the GC win remains to be seen, but I haven't seen any reason to think he can't win it at this time. At the same time I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion that he might not have that "Killer Instinct" that one needs to win the "Tour". Should be interesting to see over the next week though.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

magnolialover said:


> Contador is stronger than Levi right now, and has been the whole Tour thus far. If they really want to win, they'll throw weight, and everything behind him, and keep Levi in reserve, just in case someone blows up* (remember, Contador beat Levi by a full minute in the TT the other day).*
> 
> The point of the tour is not to finish 4th, it's to win. Anything less than that, goal not accomplished.


Actually Contador beat Levi by 21 seconds. Still pretty impressive for a climber. Yeah, it looks like Contador is Disco's best bet for this Tour.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

lets see LL performs tonight... i have a feeling rasmussen might crack tonight... he had been putting a lot effort in the tt and yesterday stage... it might be really tactical move from disco to let contador attack ras to waste his energy...


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Soler.

Soler had no team mates in the same zip code. 

Soler had no water so he kept grabbing water from the spectators.

Soler offered water to Rasmussen .

Soler was a playmaker with this constant attacks. Contador and Rasmussen had to respond to him since they both wanted the stage win.

Soler looks awkward on the bike.

Soler is a spinner. He was using a much lower gear than all of the leaders.

fc


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## Pinarel00 (Jul 23, 2006)

*Lets just face facts...*



teh moreon said:


> first. LL was wheelsucker/slash whiner. Then. He was lucky to be where he was. then. he would not advance on the GC and get past the lucky spot he was in. then. he is just a domestique. then. he lost time to his rivals (Evans and Sastre and Kloden not his competition?). then. he is not a champion, like rider X,Y, or Z. then. he's is not vino's equal, due to vino's ability to go for a meaningless 5th place attack. i love watching the conceptions come and go.
> 
> he may or may not win le tour. but he has beat down each and every misconception, so far. that must suck having to go further out on the hate limb. all effort to come up with a wicked bad analogy as to how he's not performing well at position 4 on the GC after stage 14.


Well, I think that LL is many things, among them, a superb bike racer...But the thing he is NOT, on cycling grandest stage- is a CHAMPION....The TdF is about recognizing the most special rider, and that is not what LL is...Sure he is high on GC because he is steady, reliable, and smart, and because he has the strength luck and consistency to avoid the Moreau, Vino, Kloeden, Mayo, Valverde et al meltdowns...Again, this takes a superb cyclist, and there is no question that LL is that....:thumbsup: 

But his performances in all of his TdF's thus far shows over and over again that he does not have the natural talent of a Valverde, can't climb with Rasmussen or AC, lacks the the raw agression of a Soler, the indominatable will of a Vino, the amazing power of a Cancellara, the TT smoothness and elegance of a Kloeden or the amazing engine of a Hincapie or Popo...He is merely a superb overachiever trying to maximize his limited store of talent (relative to these men), but THIS ain't the Dauphine, or the Td Germany or Austria, or Georgia or California where mere competence is recognized and rewarded. This is the TOUR, and it requires you to have cycling genius SOMEWHERE, on TOP of smarts, luck, and reliability, and consistency....This extra gear, this genius, this trancendant cycling ability is a characteristic that LL does not have, never had, and never will have...Period...

Its no crime or dishonor to be superb, but to lead a major Pro tour team to the MJ in the TdF, you need to be more than just superb, and LL just ain't!

Like I said, the man is an incredible domestique which says a lot about his ability, grit and determination (see Hincapie), but he has yet to demonstrate that he has the stuff of a Champion, and if his strategy is to wait until the final TT to pull back 4+ minutes on Ras, who can, has and will continue to drop LL in the mountains, well, its just not going to work- Ras performed well on the last TT, and benefitted from its uphill nature, but I think that when the man is racing for yellow, it will be a knife fight, and if LL is placing all his eggs in the St Etienne basket when it comes to Ras' TT ability, it may prove to be a risky proposition....Besides, do you want to see the ultimate MJ WIN, or the best rider in the race LOSE?

Come on! Just recongnize LL for what he is- Competent, steady, lucky, strong, capable, dedicated, focused, consistent-A prototype domestique, but, I say again, NOT A CHAMPION! Not now, not tomorrow, not EVER....

He just isn't!


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

Pinarel00 said:


> Well, I think that LL is many things, among them, a superb bike racer...But the thing he is NOT, on cycling grandest stage- is a CHAMPION....The TdF is about recognizing the most special rider, and that is not what LL is...Sure he is high on GC because he is steady, reliable, and smart, and because he has the strength luck and consistency to avoid the Moreau, Vino, Kloeden, Mayo, Valverde et al meltdowns...Again, this takes a superb cyclist, and there is no question that LL is that....:thumbsup:
> 
> But his performances in all of his TdF's thus far shows over and over again that he does not have the natural talent of a Valverde, can't climb with Rasmussen or AC, lacks the the raw agression of a Soler, the indominatable will of a Vino, the amazing power of a Cancellara, the TT smoothness and elegance of a Kloeden or the amazing engine of a Hincapie or Popo...He is merely a superb overachiever trying to maximize his limited store of talent (relative to these men), but THIS ain't the Dauphine, or the Td Germany or Austria, or Georgia or California where mere competence is recognized and rewarded. This is the TOUR, and it requires you to have cycling genius SOMEWHERE, on TOP of smarts, luck, and reliability, and consistency....This extra gear, this genius, this trancendant cycling ability is a characteristic that LL does not have, never had, and never will have...Period...
> 
> ...


Please see my post below regarding trolls.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Pinarel00 said:


> Besides, do you want to see the ultimate MJ WIN, or the best rider in the race LOSE?
> 
> Come on! Just recognize LL for what he is- Competent, steady, lucky, strong, capable, dedicated, focused, consistent-A prototype domestique, but, I say again, NOT A CHAMPION! Not now, not tomorrow, not EVER....
> 
> He just isn't!


Many, many times the best athlete doesn't win regardless of the sport. It's the smart, competent, steady, strong, dedicated, focused athlete that does. The most athletic generally tend to rely on their talents too much and don't train hard enough, don't think smart enough, are too aggressive, etc.

Like I've said....you don't want to see the best win, you want to see the most exciting win.



> But his performances in all of his TdF's thus far shows over and over again that he does not have the natural talent of a Valverde, can't climb with Rasmussen or AC, lacks the the raw aggression of a Soler, the indomitable will of a Vino, the amazing power of a Cancellara, the TT smoothness and elegance of a Kloeden or the amazing engine of a Hincapie or Popo...He is merely a superb overachiever trying to maximize his limited store of talent (relative to these men), but THIS ain't the Dauphine, or the Td Germany or Austria, or Georgia or California where mere competence is recognized and rewarded. This is the TOUR, and it requires you to have cycling genius SOMEWHERE, on TOP of smarts, luck, and reliability, and consistency....This extra gear, this genius, this trancendant cycling ability is a characteristic that LL does not have, never had, and never will have...Period...


So the natural talent of Valverde has taken him to the top? Last time I checked LL was ahead of him by 5:16 minutes.

The climbing ability of Rasmussen? He's matched him stride for stride except for one climb. The question is could he have gone with him if he pushed himself into the redline?

The raw aggression of Soler? A rider that is 7:02 behind him and that he rode back up to and caught at the end of the biggest climbing stage of the year?

The indomitable will of a Vino? Now that's laughable....Vino's attacking style lost him almost 30 minutes yesterday. Vino has gone in as the favorite many years, but always blows himself up. He will never win the Tour, I repeat, he will never win the Tour. He's too aggressive, takes too many chances and can't hang when the going gets tough. He however is fun to watch.

Cancellara? He's a sprinter and never ever going to contend for a GC title, what's he doing in this discussion?

Kloeden? You mean the guy that keeps getting dropped on the climbs? The amazing smoothness that netted him a whopping 1 minute on Leiphemier in the first ITT? Amazing!

The amazing engine of a Hincapie or Popo? Ummm....Both of those guys are domestiques and far behind Levi. They also happen to be Levi's domestiques, what do they have to do with anything?


Face it, you just find Levi boring therefore you will find any argument to make him less than a great rider. All the guys you listed, aside from Rasmussen/Contador won't win the tour, but you have spectacular things to say about them and feel they have a chance to win even though all but Rasmussen/Contador are behind him in the GC standings.

With your way of thinking any rider that doesn't win the tour or at a minimum do something spectacular during the Tour is a super domestique....Reall that's what Vino is. He thinks he's a team leader, is super aggressive, but will never amount to anything other than a good rider with no chance at winning the Tour. He should have been riding for Kloden from the start. Now that's a super domestique...

Your just trolling, nothing more nothing less because you don't like Levi.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

holy ****.. contador recovery is amazing.. he keep attacking..


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## Pinarel00 (Jul 23, 2006)

I would like to think that you can deal with a difference of opinion without having to resort to name calling yes? 

Enjoy the Tour!


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

Pinarel00 said:


> Okay, so while the TdF is about energy dosing and riding smart, LL does not inspire great confidence, because as sports fans, we want to see virtuosity that can define the context of the struggle. LL embodies mere competence waiting for someone more talented to falter, and that is exactly why he is a top 10 guy, but NOT a champion (At the TdF level)...
> 
> Again, if his strategy is to continue to ride and expend as little energy as possible, then fine- go right ahead...But its a loser strategy when it results in you losing time on your competitors, (like yesterday AND today) period....Don't get me wrong, LL is a superb athlete, better than 99.998% of any other cyclist in the world, (without question also including me!) but this is the Tour baby! The best of the best, of the physiologic freaks out there, and waiting for them to wilt so that you can win the spoils will not get you anywhere...Well, maybe 6th (remember it was LL who lost a few places on final GC because his infuriatingly conservative style had him working a slide rule to figure out how many sprint points he would get if he just played it safe....While LL forgot to "carry a one", and dropped his slide rule, Vino, a CHAMPION just goes out on the Champs, and WINS the Frickin' race, and does the math of a stage victory, while knocking LL a few rungs down on GC- Again, "riding smart" LL style gains you NOTHING in this crowd baby! Do the math on THAT!)
> 
> ...



I see again here somebody doesnt quite fully grasp the way bike racing works. And thats ok.


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## Pinarel00 (Jul 23, 2006)

I am simply pointing out the differences in style between LL and the other contenders in the Tour, and pointing out what seperates Champions from Domestiques...My points stand, and are valid, and your attempt to ignore the facts does nothing to weaken my position...LL lost more time today when more talented riders attacked and made the stage...Do I want the most exciting rider to win? YES! I do, and I make no apologies for that...I think we all do, that's why we watch...LL is unexciting, and simply not as good as the best, and never will be....I think that his performances bear me out...

At this point, I will end this, because it is clear that you will never accept LL's shortcomings...The fact that he has already done so says more about his ability to accept reality, than your ability to debate it...

Like I said before, Enjoy the Tour...You and I are done...


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