# Andy Schleck doesn't like going down hill



## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

> “I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill,” Andy Schleck said. “I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed.”


 http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...e-schlecks-race-themselves-into-a-hole_184992

You're right Andy, lets finish every stage up a hill. In fact, lets just race up hill all day and only take the team bus down after the stages. Lets cancel the stage if it rains. Lets never have a sprint finish. Lets never have a TT. 

I, in fact, like my winners to be good overall riders. Its good to have skills beyond the pedal a bike fast up hill. I thought the four mountain top finishes this year would be too many, but obviously the GC riders didn't make much use of the first two anyway.


----------



## krott5333 (Oct 2, 2009)

what a pansy


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

He's not going to like tomorrow.

His stock is going down by the minute.

fc


----------



## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Ya know...Im much more in Andy's camp on this topic than Id like to admit. I think the organizers do try to make the course "the story" and make it a bit too complex at times. The Crotsis descent is one of those times. That ridiclous stage in the Giro with 22,000 feet of climbing that took eight hours to finish is one of those times. Heck, even including the cobbles in last year's Tour _could _ to some...be considered one of those times.

But today..... is defintiely NOT one of those times.

Shut up and race, Andy.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

krott5333 said:


> what a pansy


Come on - he may have a point. Not that I agree with it 100%, but one could argue that it is reasonable for GC contenders not to take crazy risks on technical downhills in bad weather. I would like for the race to be decided on who has the best fitness, not who is willing to take the most risks.


----------



## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

I really try to buy into him, but there is something I just can't put my finger on that keeps me from going full in on him. His body language on the bike is something I have a hard time watching. I have to admit I am rooting for Cadel. That dude has been the bridesmaid one too many times. he ain't pretty, but I think he can taste it and will do everything it takes.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

55x11 said:


> Come on - he may have a point. Not that I agree with it 100%, but one could argue that it is reasonable for GC contenders not to take crazy risks on technical downhills in bad weather. I would like for the race to be decided on who has the best fitness, not who is willing to take the most risks.


It's a bike race not a fitness contest. 

The riders provide a spectacle and descending is one of the best.

The Schlecks are simply poor descenders so of course the descents are going to be relatively dangerous to them.


----------



## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Come on - he may have a point. Not that I agree with it 100%, but one could argue that it is reasonable for GC contenders not to take crazy risks on technical downhills in bad weather. I would like for the race to be decided on who has the best fitness, not who is willing to take the most risks.


The portion of your statement I underlined is exactly what has been wrong with the Tour in modern times, in my opinion. A bike race should be more than a fitness test. It should be a challeneg with real world obstacles, risks and rewards.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

55x11;3458877I would like for the race to be decided on who has the best fitness[/QUOTE said:


> Isn't there more to bike racing is more than just fitness? Tactics? Bike handling?
> 
> Are technical TT's unfair? A less fit rider that can corner could easily beat a more fit rider, and the more fit rider could then whine that the winner took too many risks. (we should ask Rasmussen about this)
> 
> Who gets to decide when a descent is too scary and should be neutralized? You'd get very different answers from Sammy and Andy. Luckily, Il Falco is retired.


----------



## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Contador lost a few seconds to Evans after putting in all the effort on the climb. Did I hear him bit*hing?

Voeckler lost time to Evans, Contador and Sanchez. Did he whinge and whine about the parcours?

Andy is fast looking like the spoilt brat who can't take losing. And I think today might be clarifying in his own mind that he isn't going to win the Tour this year. Or even take second to Bertie and hope for a CAS present in August.


----------



## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

I really thought that Andy had a good chance at winning the tour but not now after that statement. You can't expect to win if you say I don't do descents or ITTs.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Sounds like Andy is more interested in a computrainer race.


----------



## yurl (Mar 31, 2010)

as a spectator, i love watching these guys with their skill and stones going downhill at insane speeds. Andy needs to stop whining. anyway he got dropped on the climb.


----------



## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

55x11 said:


> I would like for the race to be decided on who has the best fitness, not who is willing to take the most risks.


If you follow this reasoning through, we could just hook all the riders up to computrainers, adjust the resistance according to their bodyweight, and press start.

Bike racing involves ascents, descents, dangerous conditions, corners, tactics, etc. Fitness is just one part of it.


----------



## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

After today, you knew it was coming . . . here's Andy on descending (xtranormal vid):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubEfM5npOvo


----------



## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

This race is about all aspects of racing. That is what makes it, the Giro, the Vuelta, so special. They test everything a bike rider can do, not just who's in the best shape. Personally, I can't believe how bad some of these riders are at bike handling. It blows my mind.


----------



## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

serpico7 said:


> After today, you knew it was coming . . . here's Andy on descending (xtranormal vid):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubEfM5npOvo


Fantastic!


----------



## boarder1995 (May 9, 2006)

I think this might be one of those "in the heat of the moment" comments, much like Farrar's about Cav taking car rides up hill. They caught A.Schleck right after the finish when he learned of his time losses, was wet (doubled his weight), tired, cold and probably quite emotional. He was speaking his true mind likely, but still something we shouldn't totally judge him on. Now his descending skills we saw, YES, that's something we can judge him on...and on that he seems to suck. The TT, we'll see Saturday.

I still like the guy, although not a beastly rider like Cav, Thor or even Cadel now, but he's still a good rider (up a hill, with no shifting, rain, bad wind, or fast attacks like el Pistelero).


----------



## dfltroll (Nov 27, 2006)

Andy, would you like some cheese with that whine?


----------



## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*New strategy*

What if the Schlecks tag team the descent? First Andy goes fast while Frank is more careful. Then Frank bombs some wet corners while Andy puts on some warm rain gear and so on. Surely after that, Evans and the others will be just exhausted and the sun will come out.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Pablo said:


> The portion of your statement I underlined is exactly what has been wrong with the Tour in modern times, in my opinion. A bike race should be more than a fitness test. It should be a challeneg with real world obstacles, risks and rewards.


in a year when Wouter Weylands has crashed and tragically died, and when we had a Tour with unusually high number of dangerous crashes and serious injuries with many riders out as a result, are you seriously advocating for more dangerous roads, with "obstacle and risks"?

The bike race is ALL about fitness, not who can break the least number of bones.

I really detest Versus' promotions on the TV that show highlights of all crashes so far telling us how this tour is "EPIC". This is NOT what is epic about the tour.

It's hard for any of us to judge how dangerous those roads were, but when was it the last time you descended at 50mph in the rain on switchbacks?

The only real problem I have with Schleck's statement is that it would read differently if he had actually dominated the mountains. Instead, he played it safe in the mountains and now loses time on the descent and complains about it. It looks a bit whiny. 

But in terms of the basic question about whether the Tour should try to make it more dangerous or less dangerous for the riders, you know where I stand now.


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Andy seemed to be afraid of getting Beloki-itis. I suppose it's somewhat understandable considering that descent ruined Beloki's career. Of course it was blazing hot and sunny that day. If only ASO would man up and put some controls on the weather - what are they thinking?

OTOH, we got treated to another display of Andy motioning the MJ to ride more aggresively on the climb. Very dooshy.

JSR


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

godot said:


> Who gets to decide when a descent is too scary and should be neutralized?


Who gets to say something when a descent is too scary (=dangerous)? I think riders should be able to say something. Without couch potato fans like you and me calling them whiners when they do.

If Schleck thought the course was too dangerous, he should be able to say so - just because he happens to lose time as a result does not disqualify him from an opinion.

I admitted in original post, I am somewhat split on this topic. I have NOT ridden the descent in the rain, but neither did you. To declare his complaint as whiny is wrong. I think this type of feedback is something tour organizers should consider seriously, not make it custom-made for fans who want to see more dangerous descents for entertainment value.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

serpico7 said:


> If you follow this reasoning through, we could just hook all the riders up to computrainers, adjust the resistance according to their bodyweight, and press start.
> 
> Bike racing involves ascents, descents, dangerous conditions, corners, tactics, etc. Fitness is just one part of it.


not every argument should be taken to extreme to make it into your favorite straw man. I never said we need to use computrainers, just that GC riders shouldn't feel they need to risk their lives to win the race.

The real question(s) you need to ask is: 
Do you want to see more dangerous Tour route or less dangerous?
Do you want to see MORE crashes or LESS crashes?


----------



## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

In the last year Lance did the Giro they complained that on one of the descents they were hitting 70 mph in wet conditions on a chase toward the finish. I can't say that's the case today but there's been plenty of times where Tour and other large race organizers have not fully taken into account the speeds the riders will hit descending and not always take into account doing it in poor weather conditions. Though it is pretty widely known the Schlecks can't TT or go downhill very well... But this all becomes moot if Andy or Frank can pop away from the group on one of the true mountain days.


----------



## foofighter (Dec 19, 2008)

Magsdad said:


> This race is about all aspects of racing. That is what makes it, the Giro, the Vuelta, so special. They test everything a bike rider can do, not just who's in the best shape. Personally, I can't believe how bad some of these riders are at bike handling. It blows my mind.


This ^^^


----------



## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

When did the toughest athletes in the toughest race in the world become such crying wankers?

No more Andy on my Fantasy team... 

*Jens needs to slap some "man" into him!*


----------



## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

I have never liked A Schleck. The way he rides is pathetic - always looking around for his Mummy (Frank). His body language is terrible when he is under pressure of losing. He lacks gumption.


----------



## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

boarder1995 said:


> I think this might be one of those "in the heat of the moment" comments, much like Farrar's about Cav taking car rides up hill. They caught A.Schleck right after the finish when he learned of his time losses, was wet (doubled his weight), tired, cold and probably quite emotional. He was speaking his true mind likely, but still something we shouldn't totally judge him on. Now his descending skills we saw, YES, that's something we can judge him on...and on that he seems to suck. The TT, we'll see Saturday.
> 
> I still like the guy, although not a beastly rider like Cav, Thor or even Cadel now, but he's still a good rider (up a hill, with no shifting, rain, bad wind, or fast attacks like el Pistelero).


I don't think it was heat of the moment. Andy was complaining about the descents on the rest day as well. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aso-denies-descents-in-tour-de-france-are-too-dangerous


----------



## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

I know that there are times when one should complain about dangerous descents etc, but not after suffering on a climb. I can understand a heat of the moment comment, but the team director backs you up and it is repeated away from the finish line it just sounds spoiled. 

There is an inherent risk at all times while riding a bike, and I think this year tour proves it more than ever. In a race there will be times when it is riskier, and those that are the most successful will reap bigger rewards. Some have the nerve to handle a wet descent and some do not. End of story and if you cant handle those areas as well you plan for them and make up for it somewhere else. If not you will lose time...


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Who gets to say something when a descent is too scary (=dangerous)? I think riders should be able to say something. Without couch potato fans like you and me calling them whiners when they do.
> 
> If Schleck thought the course was too dangerous, he should be able to say so - just because he happens to lose time as a result does not disqualify him from an opinion.
> 
> I admitted in original post, I am somewhat split on this topic. I have NOT ridden the descent in the rain, but neither did you. To declare his complaint as whiny is wrong. I think this type of feedback is something tour organizers should consider seriously, not make it custom-made for fans who want to see more dangerous descents for entertainment value.


EDIT - In my original post I never said anything about denying a rider the right to express their opinion - riders talking to the media is one of the fun parts of the sport (see Cavendish). My point was about who gets to say a descent is too dangerous (should be neutralized) within the peloton in the middle of a stage.

How do feel about the question I raised about technical ITT's? Better bike handler beats more fit rider who isn't known as a great bike handler.
I'm fine with the more fit rider coming back and saying "the course didn't suit me, I struggled" If more fit rider comes back and says "the only reason the other guy won is because he took huge chances and risked serious injury to get this win" That's when it sounds like whining to me. Just my opinion, we're all entitled to one, including Andy

Andy is known to not be a great descender. So when he loses a good chunk of time due to a known weakness, and blames the course, the weather, the other riders, etc - It sounds like whining to me. If Sammy or Tommy V came back with "that was nuts, I'm amazed I lived" it would carry a bit more weight.

I agree with an earlier poster, this may be Andy's "Farrar" moment.

BTW - I do think sometimes organizers go too far, I'm not looking for a route where technical descending decides the race. However, weather and descending are part of the sport.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

godot said:


> How do feel about the question I raised about technical ITT's? Better bike handler beats more fit rider who isn't known as a great bike handler.
> I'm fine with the more fit rider coming back and saying "the course didn't suit me, I struggled" If more fit rider comes back and says "the only reason the other guy won is because he took huge chances and risked serious injury to get this win" That's when it sounds like whining to me. Just my opinion, we're all entitled to one, including Andy
> 
> Andy is known to not be a great descender. So when he loses a good chunk of time due to a known weakness, and blames the course, the weather, the other riders, etc - It sounds like whining to me. If Sammy or Tommy V came back with "that was nuts, I'm amazed I lived" it would carry a bit more weight.
> ...



It's a somewhat irrelevant question, but I will answer it. How many ITT have resulted in lethal crashes (vs. descents)? How many have resulted in ending entire careers of riders? How many ITT courses were designed to involve riding steep switchbacks downhill, and were ridden in the rain?

Today's descent was the one that ended Joseba Beloki's career. Except today it was done in the rain.

Is Andy a "bad" descender? Yes - we can all agree. So is Jens Voigt, apparently, by the way. And by "bad" I mean only slightly slower than riders willing to take a lot of risks, but still a whole LOT faster than you and me, let's not kid ourselves. "Tough" riders like you and I would finish 20 minutes behind pro peloton today while sh!tting our chamois.

My point is - just because someone like Andy lost time on a descent does NOT mean we should disregard anything they may have to say about safety issues. Same goes for when Armstrong, Cancellara and many others complained about dangerous roads in Giro and TdF in 2009 and 2010 and fans responded with a collective "STFU and HTFU!".

It makes me a bit sick that as fans we mourn Weyland's death for a day or two, and shake our head when Van den Broeck, Brajkovic and Wiggins break collarbones/puncture lungs (both GC contenders), Vino ends his entire career with broken pelvis, Zabriskie breaks wrist, Boonen and Horner are out after being disoriented and suffering concussions - all terrible things that we wouldn't wish to happen to our friends and family, plus about a hundred other, more "minor" crashes... and then when a professional rider says the steep descent in the rain was dangerous we forget all about it and instead of at least considering it seriously we all respond with: "HTFU and ride for my enjoyment you whiny wuss!"

I am not 100% convinced that Andy's comments are completely justified, but your response is definitely in the wrong.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

If pro cycling is just a fitness test, we might as well watch triathlons - those guys really take competitive exercising to the next level.


----------



## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

godot said:


> If Sammy or Tommy V came back with "that was nuts, I'm amazed I lived" it would carry a bit more weight.


Yep. I've heard Lance complain about some run-ins to the finish on Tour stages before, and it never sounded whiny to me.

But under the circumstances, Andy's complaint sounds like a whole lotta sour grapes. I wonder if sour grapes will make him ride any more aggressively than a stomach full of anger.


----------



## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Yes 55x11, there are times to take dangerous conditions serious and who better to voice these than the riders. I just don't see this applying to this descent. It has been ridden many times, yes Beloki had a major fall, but scores of riders made it around fine. Some are able to push the limits and some are not. This is in all areas of cycling and other sports. There are serious risks with most sports, so then we have to ask where do you draw the line? You have a couple of options when descending on a wet course, slow down and reduce the risk, or go all out and accept the risk. Was this hill dangerous, or was it the conditions? If you shorten the course because of wet conditions only then you set a complicated precedent. If all it takes are a few complaints then down the road many unique and yes risky features could be in danger of being eliminated (neutralized finish instead of a wet sprint, only entering towns/cities that have no 90 deg bends, TT on dry only, on and on and on.. The section that was eliminated during the Giro is one that stands on its own because of the overall condition of the route,, eliminated rightly so.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

53x11 -

I updated my previous reply, to recap - I never said anything about denying a rider the right to express their opinion. The point I was trying to make is that different riders see risks differently. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The TT question was a hypothetical based on your assertion that you want to see the fittest rider win. There's a lot more than just fitness that goes into winning a race. You seem to be shifting your argument away from that assertion.

I like that riders sometimes say controversial things, at times that part is more interesting than the actual racing.

Andy lost time today because of a known weakness, I'm entitled to my opinion that he's whining, as much as you are that I'm 100% wrong.


----------



## BassNBrew (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm a little less willing to question these guys courage after watching a 35 year old in front of me crash and die on a descent.


----------



## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Bass, totally understand where you are coming from and don't question that at all. Sorry to hear..

We all, yourself included, take the same risk every time we are on the bike. This is magnified quite a bit during the tour because of the 3 week coverage of so many miles, so many riders. This particular tour has proved these dangers are present during the entire route not just the wet sweeping descents..


----------



## cinelliguy (Jan 4, 2011)

That is pretty dang sad BassNBrew, no matter what the sport.

Courage (also bravery, fortitude, or intrepidity) is the ability to confront fear, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. "Physical courage" is courage in the face of physical pain, hardship, death, or threat of death.

Both definitions fit all our riders in the TdF this and every year. Fitness (IMHO) has little to do with courage.


----------



## krott5333 (Oct 2, 2009)

55x11 said:


> It makes me a bit sick that as fans we mourn Weyland's death for a day or two, and shake our head when Van den Broeck, Brajkovic and Wiggins break collarbones/puncture lungs (both GC contenders), Vino ends his entire career with broken pelvis, Zabriskie breaks wrist, Boonen and Horner are out after being disoriented and suffering concussions - all terrible things that we wouldn't wish to happen to our friends and family, plus about a hundred other, more "minor" crashes... and then when a professional rider says the steep descent in the rain was dangerous we forget all about it and instead of at least considering it seriously we all respond with: "HTFU and ride for my enjoyment you whiny wuss!"


Very good points, I now reconsider my opinion of Andy being a pansy.


----------



## BassNBrew (Aug 4, 2008)

penn_rider said:


> Bass, totally understand where you are coming from and don't question that at all. Sorry to hear..
> 
> We all, yourself included, take the same risk every time we are on the bike. This is magnified quite a bit during the tour because of the 3 week coverage of so many miles, so many riders. This particular tour has proved these dangers are present during the entire route not just the wet sweeping descents..


I loved that video of Cancellara bombing that descent through the cars. It's part of the sport and these guys know it when they sign up. If Andy doesn't want to take the risks he'll have to make it up elsewhere. I still won't question his courage.

That said, I'm glad putting food on the table doesn't involve risking my life. Some of the marginal riders or tweeners really don't have a choice if the want glory or a big contract. I'm amazed that the carnage is relatively tame given what these guys do.


----------



## BassNBrew (Aug 4, 2008)

cinelliguy said:


> That is pretty dang sad BassNBrew, no matter what the sport.
> 
> Courage (also bravery, fortitude, or intrepidity) is the ability to confront fear, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. "Physical courage" is courage in the face of physical pain, hardship, death, or threat of death.
> 
> Both definitions fit all our riders in the TdF this and every year. Fitness (IMHO) has little to do with courage.


Sad and a horrific scene. Hopefully the weekend wannabes like myself witnessing this will keep things in perspective. Personally I'll be focusing more of my time making up time on the climbs and consider the choices I make on descents.


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

its a tour of france. roads go up, roads go down. some are cobbled, some are turnpikes. 

as stated above, it should be about all aspects of racing. that is why the giro was so dull this year. by the start of the second week it was uphill all the way to milan.


----------



## Mark Kelly (Oct 27, 2009)

55x11 said:


> I would like for the race to be decided on who has the best fitness, not who is willing to take the most risks.


So why don't we just measure their VO2 maxima and be done with it?


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

55x11 said:


> It's a somewhat irrelevant question, but I will answer it.


Actually, you made no attempt whatsoever to answer it, you just changed the subject to something more dramatic. Please answer in the context of your assertion that the fittest should win, which is the context of my original question.


----------



## nathanbal (Feb 23, 2009)

cadel has been quoted in the press saying he has never been that scared on a bike down the descent in last nights stage. probably a good litmus test but also a better example of how to react after the stage. the main difference between the two is that cadel came out positive whilst shleck had a negative experience. when comparing the two, its easy to see why andy comes out looking like a soft c0ck.


----------



## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

My favorite part of the article is where they asked Frank Schleck, Did you expect those surges from Contador? And Frank said, "no, not at all." Really?


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

nathanbal said:


> cadel has been quoted in the press saying he has never been that scared on a bike down the descent in last nights stage.


For the full effect, you need to put Cadel's quote in the right context:



> Evans said. "I was more prepared for things on the downhill actually because it was a little bit dangerous and narrow. That downhill really scared me last year when I had a broken arm."


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

55x11 said:


> not every argument should be taken to extreme to make it into your favorite straw man. I never said we need to use computrainers, just that GC riders shouldn't feel they need to risk their lives to win the race.
> 
> The real question(s) you need to ask is:
> Do you want to see more dangerous Tour route or less dangerous?
> Do you want to see MORE crashes or LESS crashes?



Descending is a skill, the Schlecks need to work on that skill. I'm betting at no time did Evans, Sanchez, or Contador feel they were endangering theirs lives as they were putting time into the whiner.


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

55x11 said:


> not every argument should be taken to extreme to make it into your favorite straw man. I never said we need to use computrainers, just that GC riders shouldn't feel they need to risk their lives to win the race.
> 
> The real question(s) you need to ask is:
> Do you want to see more dangerous Tour route or less dangerous?
> Do you want to see MORE crashes or LESS crashes?


Think about all those crashes, IIRC most of the pile-ups before we saw the vehicle-induced crashes (Stage 9 or so) were all on flat straight roads, caused by inattentive riding. Not by dangerous or hazardous roads.

It is a race. Not a wind-tunnel test. IRL, there's weather, there's up-hill, downhill, and gawd forbid a finish that isn't suited to your set of abilities etc. Heck the Tour organizers go out and rent the best condition roads in France. IMHO, today's stage, no matter what Schlecond may say, was one of the most exciting and interesting last 60km in quite some time.

Besides, the race in the GC classification apart from Voeckler's riding, has been basically stagnant since the start of Stage 2. I was wondering how the GC became the big important thing when no one who was supposedly in the running for it this year seemed to be doing squat to get the yellow jersey apart from riding near the front of the peloton.

Andy may have lost his swing at yellow today because a) they didn't chase that last break like they should have, b) he can't descend as well as the competition, c) he's always looking for Frank over his shoulder instead of racing. Such is life.


----------



## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

I'm an Andy fan, but we've seen much worse descents than that, and I doubt he'd be complaining if he didn't lose time.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Lucky for Andy, the descents can't cost a rider nearly as much time as being slightly less talented ascender. It will mean he is vulnerable once again tomorrow down Sestriere. But he won't lose much time due to descending skill. He can still afford to lose a little time to Contador, and I think he is more likely to drop Evans in the high alps than vice versa.

And he should STFU if all he is going to do is whine. I felt this year he has the fans' hearts on his side?


----------



## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

Andy should have complained about these descents when the organization revealed the route for this year's TdF, not now.

If he/his team think there should not be downhill finishes, they should say so before the race begins. Now they can't do anything but race.


----------



## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

He lost most time on the climb where he couldn't follow the attacks, and a little on the descent.
To add a little perspective, the tour was much more dangerous when the stages were on dirt, with no or few gears, and the stages we'd closer to 500kms long. The race was what it was, and each rider decided how much risk they were willing to take, as it should be now. It takes bravery as well as fitness, strength and endurance - different stages favour one over the other. If it's too scary, ride slower and pay the consequences.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

penn_rider said:


> When did the toughest athletes in the toughest race in the world become such crying wankers?
> 
> No more Andy on my Fantasy team...
> 
> *Jens needs to slap some "man" into him!*


'cept Jens fell on a descent ... twice! 

:cryin:


----------



## Purt (Dec 23, 2010)

il sogno said:


> 'cept Jens fell on a descent ... twice!
> 
> :cryin:


You gotta risk it for the biscuit :idea:


----------



## Bullvine (Sep 9, 2009)

Bikes can go up hill & down hill they can also turn usually to the left or the right.. I'm not sure what Schleck's crying about? Besides he was getting dropped near the top of the climb the decent just added a bit to it..

Put a sock in it man and race. Ugh 

I hate it when people whine when loosing just grow some stones and do the best you can..


----------



## jasjas (Dec 16, 2009)

Andy S seems a nice guy, so i go with the theory he was pxssed off with himself and emotional, cut him some slack. 
i think in future he ll just jump in the team car and drive off


----------



## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

kbiker3111 said:


> http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...e-schlecks-race-themselves-into-a-hole_184992
> 
> You're right Andy, lets finish every stage up a hill. In fact, lets just race up hill all day and only take the team bus down after the stages. Lets cancel the stage if it rains. Lets never have a sprint finish. Lets never have a TT.
> 
> I, in fact, like my winners to be good overall riders. Its good to have skills beyond the pedal a bike fast up hill. I thought the four mountain top finishes this year would be too many, but obviously the GC riders didn't make much use of the first two anyway.


I think he is ridiculous. I have lost all respect for the guy at this point. This is a bike race, he's a good climber, a slightly better than marginal TT guy and crap descender. Sounds to me like he needs a coach who needs to teach him how to descend better. 

His bike management skills have been exposed the past two years. Dropped chain due to cross chaining last year and then when he had a chance to catch Contador on the descent he lost more time.

Not a Lance fan, but on descents he almost always seemed to be at the front or near it, because he could descend and because he was more safe that way. This attention to detail is what makes a difference.


----------



## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

The xtranormal vid nails it from 1.50 onwards.


----------



## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

55x11 said:


> in a year when Wouter Weylands has crashed and tragically died, and when we had a Tour with unusually high number of dangerous crashes and serious injuries with many riders out as a result, are you seriously advocating for more dangerous roads, with "obstacle and risks"?
> 
> The bike race is ALL about fitness, not who can break the least number of bones.
> 
> ...


I'm not advocating for more obstacles, risks, and danger. I'm simply advocating to not sterlize the course to obviate the need for bike handling skills to favor those riders who are fit, but not as skilled bike racers. 

Asserting that a bike race is " ALL about fitness" really suggests a lack of knowledge about bike racing, especially road racing.


----------



## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

il sogno said:


> 'cept Jens fell on a descent ... twice!
> 
> :cryin:


He didn't whine about it, though, did he?


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*every major tour I have watched*

over my life has had descents
they have had downhill run ins on climbing stages
that's bike racing
put a frigging dress on
if it was too warm a day they'd say that descent was too dangerous a la Joseba Beloki


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

I am totally fine with Andy saying that he felt the descent was dangerous (hell in reality so many things in this sport are even you local crit has the opportunity to kill you). The thing I have issue withe is his comments mainly seemed driven by the fact that he lost time (he lost alot of if on the climb) when many others managed to ride down "safe" and not lose as much or used the downhill gain time.


----------



## jevagirl (Oct 14, 2008)

Anyone remember the discussion last year in French coverage of the Tour (TV5? I have no idea.) about how Andy goes slow on rainy descents to honor his mother who watches at home and worries about him? I think that is quite sweet . Sure, complaining does nothing for him as a mode of expression, but the line between stupidity and "courage" can get rather confused IMHO. Is a Tour victory worth depriving a mother of her son's life? I agree that every race day involves varied degrees of that risk, but it's a sign of intelligence to continually weigh the risks involved in winning against the potential cost of other goods in life (and of life itself). Ok, Andy could benefit from better descent coaching, but until then ... I hope the whiner wins.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> I am totally fine with Andy saying that he felt the descent was dangerous (hell in reality so many things in this sport are even you local crit has the opportunity to kill you). The thing I have issue withe is his comments mainly seemed driven by the fact that he lost time (he lost alot of if on the climb) when many others managed to ride down "safe" and not lose as much or used the downhill gain time.


he also said it before the stage


----------



## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

serpico7 said:


> If you follow this reasoning through, we could just hook all the riders up to computrainers, adjust the resistance according to their bodyweight, and press start.
> 
> Bike racing involves ascents, descents, dangerous conditions, corners, tactics, etc. Fitness is just one part of it.


^^THis^^ And Andy got dropped on the freaking climb as well as the descent. The others were able to navigate it without incident, so STFU Andy.


----------



## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

jevagirl said:


> Anyone remember the discussion last year in French coverage of the Tour (TV5? I have no idea.) about how Andy goes slow on rainy descents to honor his mother who watches at home and worries about him? I think that is quite sweet . Sure, complaining does nothing for him as a mode of expression, but the line between stupidity and "courage" can get rather confused IMHO. Is a Tour victory worth depriving a mother of her son's life? I agree that every race day involves varied degrees of that risk, but it's a sign of intelligence to continually weigh the risks involved in winning against the potential cost of other goods in life (and of life itself). Ok, Andy could benefit from better descent coaching, but until then ... I hope the whiner wins.


If that's the case then Andy needs to find a new profession. Every race is mortally dangerous, it's not just the wet descents. 

Could you imagine and F1 driver saying that he doesn't push the pace in the wet for his mother's sake? Or an NFL Wide Receiver who was afraid to catch a pass down the middle? They would both be summarily bounced out of the sport.

One has to wonder what Jens and Fabian think about this behavior. Sad to see Jens busting his butt for a guy who won't take the same risks as his domestique.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

DZfan14 said:


> One has to wonder what Jens and Fabian think about this behavior. Sad to see Jens busting his butt for a guy who won't take the same risks as his domestique.


well, considering they moved with him.....


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

jevagirl said:


> Anyone remember the discussion last year in French coverage of the Tour (TV5? I have no idea.) about how Andy goes slow on rainy descents to honor his mother who watches at home and worries about him? I think that is quite sweet . Sure, complaining does nothing for him as a mode of expression, but the line between stupidity and "courage" can get rather confused IMHO. Is a Tour victory worth depriving a mother of her son's life? I agree that every race day involves varied degrees of that risk, but it's a sign of intelligence to continually weigh the risks involved in winning against the potential cost of other goods in life (and of life itself). Ok, Andy could benefit from better descent coaching, but until then ... I hope the whiner wins.


Perhaps Andy is better suited as a climbing domestique. Guide team leader to the top of the final climb and then take in the scenery on the way down rather than push it to defend his spot on GC


----------



## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

den bakker said:


> well, considering they moved with him.....


I meant what they think now....


----------



## serpico7 (Jul 11, 2006)

DZfan14 said:


> I meant what they think now....


I wonder if Voigt, Cancellara, etc. are thinking they should have stayed with Saxo, where they'd now be riding for Contador instead of the whining, passive Shleckettes.

All these years shepherding the Schlecks in the Tour with nothing to show for it, though they did get that win with Sastre, against a weak field w/o Contador.


----------



## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

godot said:


> Perhaps Andy is better suited as a climbing domestique. Guide team leader to the top of the final climb and then take in the scenery on the way down rather than push it to defend his spot on GC


Perhaps. But I also think Andy doesn't like riding in the rain because his hair gel ends up in his eyes.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

DZfan14 said:


> I meant what they think now....


why would their opinion have changed? If anything Jens has said he is more careful now. First crash on the descent was a blown tire, not much to do about that. 
I don't see Andy more careful this year than previous years.


----------



## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

serpico7 said:


> I wonder if Voigt, Cancellara, etc. are thinking they should have stayed with Saxo, where they'd now be riding for Contador instead of the whining, passive Shleckettes.
> 
> All these years shepherding the Schlecks in the Tour with nothing to show for it, though they did get that win with Sastre, against a weak field w/o Contador.


That would really tick me off if I found out I was risking my life to help a dude win a race in which he wasn't willing to do the same.


----------



## jevagirl (Oct 14, 2008)

DZfan14 said:


> If that's the case then Andy needs to find a new profession. Every race is mortally dangerous, it's not just the wet descents.
> 
> Could you imagine and F1 driver saying that he doesn't push the pace in the wet for his mother's sake? Or an NFL Wide Receiver who was afraid to catch a pass down the middle? They would both be summarily bounced out of the sport.
> 
> One has to wonder what Jens and Fabian think about this behavior. Sad to see Jens busting his butt for a guy who won't take the same risks as his domestique.


Meh, I'm not too convinced by the car racing and American football analogies. Even if I did go along with them, though, I'd have to say that if the football player or car driver still came out on top, they most likely would not get "bounced". As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Maybe if Schleck wins he'll get a bonus for descent-therapy and extra, specialized coaching.


----------



## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

jevagirl said:


> Meh, I'm not too convinced by the car racing and American football analogies. Even if I did go along with them, though, I'd have to say that if the football player or car driver still came out on top, they most likely would not get "bounced". As they say, the proof is in the pudding. Maybe if Schleck wins he'll get a bonus for descent-therapy and extra, specialized coaching.


I think if he does win, then you are right, the point is moot. But yeah, I think it is an apples to apples comparison. At the very least the driver and the WR would get a soft reputation, their stock would drop substantially.


----------



## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

In any event, it doesn't help your team want to pull effort for you when you acknowledge that you don't want to take a risk. At least Cav is willing to go to the matt for his team's effort, and they are eagerly willing to deliver him to the line.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

den bakker said:


> he also said it before the stage



Yeah so? So do we remove and segment that a rider has an objection too? Or call the race for bad weather? The fact of the matter is there will always be dangerous parts of a race Andy needs to adjust or find something different to do.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Yeah so? So do we remove and segment that a rider has an objection too? Or call the race for bad weather? The fact of the matter is there will always be dangerous parts of a race Andy needs to adjust or find something different to do.


"The thing I have issue withe is his comments mainly seemed driven by the fact that he lost time (he lost alot of if on the climb) when many others managed to ride down "safe" and not lose as much or used the downhill gain time."
I assume he did not loose time before the stage.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> In any event, it doesn't help your team want to pull effort for you when you acknowledge that you don't want to take a risk. At least Cav is willing to go to the matt for his team's effort, and they are eagerly willing to deliver him to the line.


I will add to this thought that not only did Lepoard Trek pull to set that stage up only to have Fank and Andy get distanced on the climb (there really was nothing they could have done about that they are clearly not going as well as Contidor and Evans) but after Andy got dropped he just sat on Monforts wheel and got pulled in to the finish. In sharp contract to most of the others chasing to protect their spots Andy finished the stage with his mouth closed breathing through his nose and looking like he was hardly trying, if he was serious about trying to win the race he should have been trading pulls with Monfort and drilling it to conserve every second, but it looked like to me he just didn't care and was pissed because he got attacked and distanced on the down hill. That is all my personal observation of course.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

srsly? Andy slows down so his mommie won't worry? no way...

hell, I'd choke my momma out for a single stage win in the TdF.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

32and3cross said:


> ... if he was serious about trying to win the race he should have been trading pulls with Monfort and drilling it to conserve every second, but it looked like to me he just didn't care and was pissed because he got attacked and distanced on the down hill. That is all my personal observation of course.


I think he is serious and was trying. I think he went too far into the red on the climb trying to match and counter-punch Contador, and was not able to recover. This was a hard raced stage with a furious pace at the beginning and the end, and a relatively short calm in the middle. He had a scare on the descent and dialled it back to stay within his descending "comfort" zone. Based on the climb alone he should have finished in the Frank Schleck group which would have been a reasonable outcome for him. Frank, on the other hand, managed his efforts and losses on the climb and was able to race to the finish with the big group.

Contrary to how he tried to spin it later, he lost more time on the descent and on the finish than he did on the climb. I do agree that he could have made more effort on the run-in trading pulls with Monfort (maybe he was not capable), but I would not say that he had lost heart or did not care.


----------



## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> In sharp contract to most of the others chasing to protect their spots Andy finished the stage with his mouth closed breathing through his nose and looking like he was hardly trying, if he was serious about trying to win the race he should have been trading pulls with Monfort and drilling it to conserve every second, but it looked like to me he just didn't care and was pissed because he got attacked and distanced on the down hill. That is all my personal observation of course.


I noticed the same thing, Andy could have taken a big turn in the final kilometer and sprinted for a few extra seconds... He attacked and went all out for just 2 seconds at the summit finish a few days ago, only to hand that back and likely more by soft pedaling to the finish yesterday  

Also, I wonder what his feelings will be towards giving away several seconds when he's in the middle of the ITT coming up fighting for every tenth of a second he can...


----------



## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

Fairly ironic that he made a good descent today, which certainly helped his cause.


----------



## ArkRider (Jul 27, 2007)

Pablo said:


> I'm not advocating for more obstacles, risks, and danger. I'm simply advocating to not sterlize the course to obviate the need for bike handling skills to favor those riders who are fit, but not as skilled bike racers.
> 
> Asserting that a bike race is " ALL about fitness" really suggests a lack of knowledge about bike racing, especially road racing.


Besides, if it were "all about fitness," where would Andy be? Would that not mean the whole race would be a time trial so you would avoid the unfair advantages of drafting, team tactics and the like?

Or maybe Cav should be allowed to hold on to a car to pull him up on the climbs - - - after all, surely the fans don't want to see a sprint finish stage decided by the climbs.


----------



## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

I would be a huge fan of Andy's right now if it weren't for his comments two days ago.


----------



## jasjas (Dec 16, 2009)

Why? his attack today was amazing, that he pulled it off makes it even more special.

To judge a guy after he is tired and emotional - re angry with himself, is fairly harsh isnt it.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

wow, did he ever show us how to descend a mountain in a hurry today! He was scooping up guys from the break all the way down, and gained time on his rival - in the downhill as well as uphill. He was using more than the entire road in the turns. I think he just got past his self-debillitating funk and felt the metaphysical power of being the Tour leader, for once.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

godot said:


> Actually, you made no attempt whatsoever to answer it, you just changed the subject to something more dramatic. Please answer in the context of your assertion that the fittest should win, which is the context of my original question.


fitness, tactics, all are fair game, obviously. What I don't want to see is the entire race decided by crashes. This was my original point if you read it carefully and don't misinterpret it as "only fitness matters". 

If ITT course is designed specifically to create "crash-like" scenarios, I am totally against it. There is no reason ITT cannot be designed as a straight course. But it's a bogus straw-man argument anyways, because I don't remember Andy Schleck complain about dangerous ITT courses, and aside from a few prologues these are usually not a major problem, the way descents are. I did answer your question with a question, but answered it nonetheless, so don't be obtuse and hi-jack this topic and make it about something else. Here's a question for you: Should TdF make the course MORE dangerous, or LESS dangerous? Answer that, it's a simple binary questions.

What we call "bike handling skills" by the way are a lot of time just plain risk. We just saw it clearly with Tommy Voeckler, who is a very good descender/bike handler, go off the course twice yesterday because he was taking all kinds of risks and being very lucky in not crashing. 

Would any of you be really happy if Voeckler did crash into that gate and was out of the tour? We could all say "He better learn how to ride that bike, pantsy!"

Again, my argument is that we simply should NOT dismiss the riders opinion about descents and road safety merely as wussy statements by someone who doesn't have bike handling skills. I have had enough with crashes in this Tour, and, if possible at all, would like to see a course that would make it possible for Horner, Wiggo, Zabriskie, Vino, Kloden, Boonen, Boom and about 20 other riders to be able to show what they have got in terms of fitness, tactics, whatever - instead of making it about who will be the lucky one not to crash while taking the most risks.


----------



## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

jasjas said:


> Why? his attack today was amazing, that he pulled it off makes it even more special.
> 
> To judge a guy after he is tired and emotional - re angry with himself, is fairly harsh isnt it.


Yup and by now Andy should know better. Its not his first rodeo.


----------



## jevagirl (Oct 14, 2008)

Cadel rode really strong and earned the win (especially today). Andy did put up a good fight, though, which contributed to an amazing Tour- even coming in at second.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

55x11 said:


> fitness, tactics, all are fair game, obviously. What I don't want to see is the entire race decided by crashes. This was my original point if you read it carefully and don't misinterpret it as "only fitness matters".
> 
> If ITT course is designed specifically to create "crash-like" scenarios, I am totally against it. There is no reason ITT cannot be designed as a straight course. But it's a bogus straw-man argument anyways, because I don't remember Andy Schleck complain about dangerous ITT courses, and aside from a few prologues these are usually not a major problem, the way descents are. I did answer your question with a question, but answered it nonetheless, so don't be obtuse and hi-jack this topic and make it about something else. Here's a question for you: Should TdF make the course MORE dangerous, or LESS dangerous? Answer that, it's a simple binary questions.
> 
> ...


Pretty fair response, thanks. I think you're being a bit over dramatic about the whole thing, and we'll never agree on this, so it goes

Your TT answer is a bit of a straw man as no one is going organize a course with the intent of causing crashes.

As for the list of riders you brought up - how many crashed out due to the course, or descents and how many crashed out because someone lost focus and screwed up? You can't remove the human element here, every GT there are crashes on easy stretches of road. 

As to your question about the tour course - I thought this years course was pretty fair in terms of risk level. The danger of the descent in question was more due to the rain than the course. I think the Giro went too far on a number of fronts

Have a good weekend.


----------

