# Best frame geometry for lower back injury



## tonkabaydog (Jul 22, 2010)

Today there are all kinds of frames with long headtubes providing riders with more comfortable/relaxed riding positions. However, if one has an injured lower back, does a more upright riding position actually increase or reduce on the lower back?

It seems logical, that a more aggressive riding position puts more load on the arms versus lower back? 

Can someone assist?


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

My opinion, (and that's all it is, so not worth a great deal|) is that you should aim to get comfortable. That might mean riding more upright, it might mean riding in a full on racing flat back style, but will probably mean riding somewhere in between like most of us.

It's too personal a thing to be able to advise on; your injury may be new, may be chronic, may be eased by exercise, may be made worse.

Lower racier positions ask a lot in terms of flexibility, but dont add as much vertical load..


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Best geometry for a bad back: This?

Seriously, the idea is to reduce flexion in the lower back and take pressure off the nerves, thus higher is generally better. Hip flexibility may help this too.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Probably depends on the individual situation. As I've gotten older my back started getting sore and tightening up after longer strenuous rides. I found lowering the bars solved the problem. I'm now running with the tops of the bars 8.5 cm below the top of saddle. I may go lower. The downside has been more pressure on my hands. YMMV

I've ridden a recumbent a few times and found that hitting bumps while sitting firmly on my butt without the benefit of any suspension killed my back.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tonkabaydog said:


> Today there are all kinds of frames with long headtubes providing riders with more comfortable/relaxed riding positions. However, if one has an injured lower back, does a more upright riding position actually increase or reduce on the lower back?
> 
> It seems logical, that a more aggressive riding position puts more load on the arms versus lower back?
> 
> Can someone assist?


FWIW, many pro fitters hold to the belief that (generally speaking) riders with back issues would benefit from a fit positioning them forward - the degree of which depending on a number of factors. 

Continuing with a general statement, if you're contemplating a drop bar road bike, I think the 'endurance/ relaxed' geo offerings might be preferable to 'race'. And while getting fit right _always_ matters, it's of utmost importance to riders with anatomical issues, so consider working with a pro fitter as part of the bike buying process. It's easier to avoid problems than try to correct them after the fact. 

Re: the last remark, the majority of rider weight should be supported by the sit bones, not the arms or lower back and in a range of ~60/40, r/f respectively.


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## bonz50 (Jun 10, 2010)

roubaix

/thread


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

There is no-one here who can assist you other than by guessing and therefore sheer luck. I'm a long-time back sufferer (on and off bike) and benefited from the opposite to the "normal" advice of "sit more upright" by going longer and lower (130mm stem from a 100) on the advice of my physiotherapist - that plus months of core strengthening and position adaptation exercises. Others' findings/advice might be different.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> ... benefited from the opposite to the "normal" advice of "sit more upright" by going longer and lower (130mm stem from a 100)....



Yes. I failed to mention going to a longer stem in addition to lower bars.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

tonkabaydog said:


> Today there are all kinds of frames with long headtubes providing riders with more comfortable/relaxed riding positions. However, if one has an injured lower back, does a more upright riding position actually increase or reduce on the lower back?
> 
> It seems logical, that a more aggressive riding position puts more load on the arms versus lower back?
> 
> Can someone assist?


I think rather than this being better for a bad back, the lower position is better suited for someone who is flexible, and importantly, strong enough pedaller to take more weight with the legs rather than seat and arms. There's only so much weight anyone can take on their wrists and arms and, yes it might be true that the more aggressive position might cause more weight to be taken on the arms for a less strong rider, but it would be uncomfortable.

It also requires more hip and back flexibility to get into that position... and core strength to maintain that position without flopping onto the arms causing discomfort there.

The source of back problems usually is not enough flexibility in the hips, causing the bend to be made not at the hips, but in the lower back, causing stress from the bending and/or fatigue of the muscles in that area. Core training and flexibility mitigate this.

More upright position requires less leg strength (or effort) to keep the weight to the hands at a reasonable level. Also requires less core strength and flexibility.

But, these positions are both forward leaning - it's just a matter of degree. We're not talking about a totally upright, all weight on the seat sort of position. Even with a relaxed road bike, the position does indeed take weight off the seat and directly vertical weight off the spine.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

tonkabaydog said:


> Today there are all kinds of frames with long headtubes providing riders with more comfortable/relaxed riding positions. However, if one has an injured lower back, does a more upright riding position actually increase or reduce on the lower back?


I couldn't ride my road bike after herniating L4-L5 until it eventually became asymptomatic. People who herniated their L4-L5 in a different spot or have different injuries probably have different results.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> There is no-one here who can assist you other than by guessing and therefore sheer luck. I'm a long-time back sufferer (on and off bike) and benefited from the opposite to the "normal" advice of "sit more upright" by going longer and lower (130mm stem from a 100) on the advice of my physiotherapist - that plus months of core strengthening and position adaptation exercises. Others' findings/advice might be different.


+1.....This position has helped me dramatically- especially on long rides.


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## coyotegulch (Apr 26, 2009)

I have suffered from mechanical LBP for 15+ years and tried a wide variety of treatments (mobilization, exercise, Pilates, injections, etc) ,and I am a PT. I was unable to ride any of my bikes for more than 10-15 minutes without discomfort. I had bike fits by numerous professional, none of which helped. I rented a Specialized Roubaix for a weekend, and was virtually pain free for 2 3 hour plus rides. I subsequently purchased one. That bike combined with limiting the ammount of time I spend in flexion off the bike, a ton of core exercises (planks), and the religious use of a lumbar roll in my car and work chair (my kids make fun of me) have reduced my overall pain by 90+% and I am now riding like I used to. I have also adopted a more upright position on my MTBs as well with the same results. 

Not saying it will work for you, but I am an advocate for the "endurance" geometry now.


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

Some great suggestions already displayed here. I also found that going to a compact bar helped tremendously. After two years of back pain I went to a fitter and it made a world of difference. Adding a couple of small spacers and an FSA Compact Wing bar did the trick. My bikes don't look "pro" but I'm a lot faster, actually spend a lot of time in the drops now, and my back no longer hurts.


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## orlin03 (Dec 11, 2007)

PJ352 said:


> FWIW, many pro fitters hold to the belief that (generally speaking) riders with back issues would benefit from a fit positioning them forward - the degree of which depending on a number of factors.


I agree with this statement. It is much easier to get to the low, aero position with a flat back when the seat is farther forward. By using a larger frame and a straight or forward seatpost, you can end up with a hip angle similar to what you would have had on a "regular" setup seat, but you won't have to be set high in the front. This will let you take the bend out of your back without putting you up in the wind like a sail and keep an aggressive position. Choosing a bike like the Kestral Talon that is offered in both TT and road versions is a good way to get this angle, since the aero seatpost can accommodate a very steep seat angle, but you should be able to get it with your current bike if you go with a longer stem (and maybe a different seatpost if you can't move that far forward).


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## dualpivot (Oct 25, 2009)

kbiker3111 said:


> Best geometry for a bad back: This?
> 
> Seriously, the idea is to reduce flexion in the lower back and take pressure off the nerves, thus higher is generally better. Hip flexibility may help this too.


Well, the Easy Racers bikes have very upright seats. They may or may not benefit an injured lower back. The other extreme would be this, which would probably help the lower back since there'd be little load on it.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Bigger gears helps me. It takes weight off the seat. Light spinning for extended periods kills my back.


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## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

I would try a neutral position of bars at the same level as the seat, and then adjust up or down from there to see how it effects your back. I would also use larger tires to lessen the road shock, so find a frame that can take at least 32mm tires.


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## SammerRibble (Apr 28, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> There is no-one here who can assist you other than by guessing and therefore sheer luck. I'm a long-time back sufferer (on and off bike) and benefited from the opposite to the "normal" advice of "sit more upright" by going longer and lower (130mm stem from a 100) on the advice of my physiotherapist - that plus months of core strengthening and position adaptation exercises. Others' findings/advice might be different.


When you say this, I have a 110mm stem and one possibility with lower back symptoms is to have a go at this too. BUT, out of interest did you also put the seat back further or do you take a forward seat position with the longer stem?

I'm thinking along the same lines as yourself but am interested in what you did with your seat position?

Thanks 
Sam


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

SammerRibble said:


> did you also put the seat back further or do you take a forward seat position with the longer stem?


Neither. For saddle fore & aft positioning I believe in KOPS (Google it and the word saddle if you're not familiar with it). So, to me, my saddle position is neutral.


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