# Front Derailleur Cable Routing - Campagnolo 11-speed



## tom_h

Thanks to C-40's insights at this thread
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=165792
I was able to diagnose a subtle cable routing error on the front derailleur of my Campy Chorus 11-speed groupset.

Campy instructions (March 2009 version) don't include any pics or routing diagrams. In fact, instructions are:_" ... secure it [FD cable] in the groove underneath washer ..."_
​Except there _isn't_ any locating groove ... unlike RD, where there _is_ a groove in the clamp-down clip/washer.

Because that post was not directly related to FD cable routing, I thought I'd re-post pics and information here, to hopefully make it easier to find in future.

My symptom was "not quite right" trimming of the FD cage. Eg, one click would move the cage too much, and nearly start the shift to smaller ring. Shifting itself, was OK -- although it too improved -- once the cable was re-routed and FD re-adjusted from scratch.

First pic below is the WRONG cable routing. Note cable is _between_ the clamp screw and the protruding tab (at 7 oclock position).

Second pic is CORRECT cable routing. Cable is to the _left/outside_ of tab, and then wraps clockwise around clamp screw. This is _before_ the cable tension was adjusted and the FD exercised -- that straightened out the small cable kink to immediate left of tab.

Before clamping cable, ensure the thumb shifter has been repeatedly pressed until no more clicks remain. When clamping the cable, the clockwise rotation of screw tends to push the cable away, to the left (recall, there is No groove to capture the cable). So, keep the cable pressed firmly against tab when doing the initial screw tightening. 

I also opted to run cable about 1/4 turn around screw, for more clamping force. With a greased screw, 30-35 inch-lb torque seems sufficient to hold cable (Campy suggests 5 N-m / 44 inch-lb).

Now, I have 5 total positions, with 4 total clicks up or down.
-- 2 available cage positions on small chainring, for trimming.
-- 2 cage position on large ring.
-- 1 intermediate position between rings, which only comes into play when doing an actual shift.
.


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## C-40

*looks right now...*

Also, if anyone is using a '08 10 speed FD, the first picture is the right way for that FD. The '08 has the longer QS lever arm length. It works with the cable between the tab and clamp bolt.

I had to figure out the '09 routing myself. I tried it the wrong way first, but it was obvious that the shifting force was too high and only 1-click caused the chain to shift onto the little ring, so there was no trim. I new that couldn't be right.


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## andrew.wetdog

Is the first picture the correct routing for the 2007 compact derailleur? The picture with the cable routed on the inside of the tab.


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## jberenyi

andrew.wetdog said:


> Is the first picture the correct routing for the 2007 compact derailleur? The picture with the cable routed on the inside of the tab.



I believe so but I will have to check my 2007 Ultra Torque Compact setup tonight. I'm glad someone steered me to this thread because my friend is having issues very similar to this.


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## C-40

*no...*

I'm relatively certain that Campy never made a FD where the cable was supposed to be routed as shown in the first picture.

Oddly enough, the 2008 compact/standard QS FD seems to work with the cable routed either way, with it's longer lever arm. I used mine for a whole season hooked up wrong. Now I've got it right and shifting an 11 speed drivetrain. 

If the routing is wrong, it may only take three clicks to cover the full range of travel. The first click of the thumb button may drop the chain to the little ring instead of trimming and the cage may not want to stay in the big ring position. If you have none of those issures, then the routing is not a problem, but I'd try it the other way. If it takes 5 clicks to cover the full range of travel, that's not right either.


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## jberenyi

The wierd thing is that my buddy's Chorus 11 wants to auto-shift on the FD down one click from the larger chainring while riding and then stays their. It's driving him nuts. His limit screws are correctly adjusted as well as tension. He has about 2K miles on the group. I believe he will need his shifter rebuilt which is a huge bummer. I'm the one who talked into Campy over ShimNo so I don't look so good right now.


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## C-40

*more..*

Be sure the cable is routed properly, then also check the number of clicks for full travel. It should be four. The most common cause of that problem is a slight misadjustment between cable tension and the big ring limit screw. If it's a little off, that fourth click won't quite be reached and the shifter will drop back to the 3rd click.


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## tom_h

C-40 said:


> Be sure the cable is routed properly, then also check the number of clicks for full travel. It should be four. The most common cause of that problem is a slight misadjustment between cable tension and the big ring limit screw. If it's a little off, that fourth click won't quite be reached and the shifter will drop back to the 3rd click.


Yes, I too, had exactly this issue when I first installed my Chorus 11, earlier this year. Inexperience on my part, the 11sp FD setup was a little different than Shimano.

jberenyi
fyi, I now have about 2000 miles Chorus 11, no issues. _Not_ to say you _couldn't_ be having a shifter problem, but I _am_ saying the shifter design seems basically robust and reliable.
I have applied a matchstick-head sized dab of light grease on the thumb shifter ratcheting mechanism, but for no good reasons other than 
-- ratchet is "exposed" and I could see it, thru the slit in the rubber hood.
-- mechanism looked dry.


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## ericjacobsen3

I had basically the same problem slipping the click in the big ring. I was trying to allow two different clicks to trim in the big ring and the more outboard click would slip or rub. To make two clicks be close enough together for trim you need some limit screw to force the outer click to be less of a jump. All clicks seem to have about the same spacing.

I avoided the problem by setting up for no trim of the front derailleur aligning one click in the middle of the range and generally can barely avoid rub in 10 of the 11 cogs aligned with better chainline of the two front rings -just about all we can expect. With the one click not unseated by the limit screw I have avoided almost all slipping. There may also be some help leaving your unused clicks outboard of the big ring (I cannot remember if 11 speed levers have a counterspring but if they do like 10 speed the spring is less wound up this way). 

I still am able to use two notches in the small ring. Overall I only use three notches.

It is not quite clear to me if Campy intends there to be two trim clicks for the big ring. Coming from old 8-speed and non-QS 10 speed, I always expected Campy to have fine ratchets and had never reallly felt they needed to be aligned on one particular click. 11-speed appears to be different.


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## C-40

*Info..*

I can't imagine how you get get enough travel from 3 clicks with the cable attached properly. It should take 4 clicks. One click of the thumb button should act as a trim click to the left, from the big ring. The second should drop the chain onto the little ring and the other two move the cage fully to the left. In the opposite direction, two clicks of the finger lever can act as trim clicks.


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## jberenyi

C-40 said:


> I can't imagine how you get get enough travel from 3 clicks with the cable attached properly. It should take 4 clicks. One click of the thumb button should act as a trim click to the left, from the big ring. The second should drop the chain onto the little ring and the other two move the cage fully to the left. In the opposite direction, two clicks of the finger lever can act as trim clicks.


You are exactly right C40. A properly adjusted front derailleur will yield a total of 4 clicks. BTW, I spent a lot of time researching and talking with Campy Pro experts on-line and over the phone yesterday and learned quite a bit about the new 11-speed shifters. What I learned was a little depressing. Apparently when Campy decided to release the 11-speed gruppo it also involved a re-engineering of the shifter assembly. We no longer have the positive engagement G-spring setup inside the shifter. The 11-speed series uses a plastic washer with small detents that small ball bearings engage and ride on. This will be the 11-speed's Achille's Heal for sure with many owners and it will in time drive the bike mechanics crazy with complaints from customers. To prove my point, if you have a 9 or 10-speed group, put your chain on the large chain ring and push you front derailleur cage inward. You will notice that you cannot. It is locked in place due to intended design. Now try this same task on your 11-speed. That's right, it just pushed inward. They all do this and sometimes with varying degree of force. Some require more force and others less. I can't help but think that the more mileage and usage on the bike will have a direct affect on the pressure required to drop that cage down one click. Local bike shops here in the area have had complaints from customers alluding to the front derailleur auto-shifting down one click randomly depending on road conditions. To solve this issue shops have been purchasing extra shims for the detent washer inside the shifter thereby increasing the pressure on the small ball bearings that ride on these detents. Mind you, complaints are not common but then again the group is also new. My hope is that Campagnolo will eventually cave in to customer complaints over this issue and due an in-process retrofit to solve this problem instead of blaming it on cable installations as they so thoughtfully do. Being an Engineer, it just does not make sense to use this design in a shifter. Ball bearings have an affinity to roll and couple this with a plastic (did I hear plastic!) washer with small detents and a cable that is in tension when on the large ring does not make me feel warm and fuzzy right now. It will want to roll out of position when in tension. Like the old adage - "It's not if but when".

I have spent much time, more than I should have, over this problem with the large chain ring dropping a click while riding. And yes, my limit screws are set correctly with the shifter cable having the proper tension. Let's not even go there. I don't think Campy themselves could do a better job than what I have performed on my friend's $8K bike which has 2,000 plus miles on it. I am just glad that I did not upgrade from my wonderful 10-speed Ultra Torque Compact or I would be in serious depression right now. Keep in mind that the only reason I immersed myself so much into this issue is because I feel partly responsible for my friend's problem. I told him to go with that group after he was a Shimano user for years.

My final thoughts are that if you don't have this problem right now you probably will and at least you will know the root cause and what should be done to fix it. My guess is that there will be many warranty repairs in the next 3 years. But what about after the warranty runs out? Hopefully Campagnolo will come to their senses before then and have a recall or at least offer a retro-fit kit for shops and end-users. We could only hope. 

For now you need to dial in that cable pressure perfectly to achieve maximum benefit and obtain the 4 clicks required to shift properly. To know if you are spot on with cable pressure, drop your chain to the small chainring all the way. Then proceed to give the shifter one click. If your cage does not move crisply toward the large chain ring with an expected amount that is typical then you don't have enough cable tension. Start playing with your barrel adjuster to achieve that required tension. For all you folks that don't have a barrel adjuster I have a trick that works every time for me. Drop your chain to its lowest point and make sure your thumb lever is completly released. Now back out your top limit screw till you see the derailleur cage moving further inward until it stops. Now set your limit screw till it just stops turning. This is the lowest point your cage will go. Now loosen the pinch bolt and pull on the cable briskly and tighten the pinch bolt. This effort will setup a pre-tension in the cable which is necessary for proper operation. Now start adjusting your limit screw so you have no rub with the cage in maximum cross-chain (small chainring - small rear cog). Every bike is different so your mileage may vary. You may not have to drop your cage all the way down for my friends bike, we did. Now for the large chainring limit screw; set it so that you have a sharp and decisive 4th click. If you push on that shifter and it looks like it wants to move a little more outward after fully engaging you need to turn your bottom limit screw inward just slightly. I work with 1/8 turns when performing limit screw adjustments. Hope this helps someone because it sure helped me.


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## C-40

*corrections...*

Some of the info that you have been given by the "experts" is wrong. There is NO plastic part anywhere in the mechanism that controls indexing. If you don't believe that, take the shifter apart. It's not hard to do. You are correct that a shim washer might improve the holding power of the shifter, since it would increase the force from the two Belleville washers (diaphragm springs) that push on the index disc. You're also blaming the design for what is more likely a problem with execution (manufacturing). As an engineer you should know the difference and you don't have nearly enough knowledge of the subject to condemn the design.

You're also making a big deal over nothing with regard to the shifter holding the FD in position. My three bikes all require a lot of force to make that cage move to the left by pushing on it. None of my bikes ever shifted by itself. I've logged 7,000 miles on those bikes. Your real problem was simply not matching the cable tension and high limit screw position, so the ball didn't quite fall into the detent and it pulled back easily.

The g-spring was the old design's weak point. The g-springs are always the first thing to wear out. Either that or the g-spring carrier.

I already posted an simpler method of setting up a frame with no cable tension. All you do is set the low limit screw with the chain in the largest cag and small ring first (without the cable attached). Then turn the limit screw in (CW) about half a turn, pull the cable tight and clamp it down. Then return the limit screw to the original position. I've been doing this since 2006 when I got my first LOOK 585. The test to see if the cage moves to the right on the first click of the finger lever is appropriate.

Here's some info on the new shifters that I post about a year ago.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=154068&highlight=inside+2009+ergopower


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## jberenyi

C-40 said:


> Some of the info that you have been given by the "experts" is wrong. There is NO plastic part anywhere in the mechanism that controls indexing. If you don't believe that, the shifter apart. It's not hard to do. You are correct that a shim washer might improve the holding power of the shifter, since it would increase the force from the two Belleville washers (diaphragm springs) that push on the index disc.
> 
> You're also making a big deal over nothing with regard to the shifter holding the FD in position. My three bikes all require a lot of force to make that cage move to the left by pushing on it. None of my bikes ever shifted by itself. I've logged 7,000 miles on those bikes.
> 
> I already posted an simpler method of setting up a frame with no cable tension. All you do is set the low limit screw with the chain in the largest cag and small ring first (without the cable attached). Then turn the limit screw in (CW) about half a turn, pull the cable tight and clamp it down. Then return the limit screw to the original position. I've been doing this since 2006 when I got my first LOOK 585. The test to see if the cage moves to the right on the first click of the finger lever is appropriate.
> 
> Here's some info on the new shifters that I post about a year ago.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=154068&highlight=inside+2009+ergopower



C40,

Regarding plastic I am going by others feedback who are in the business of rebuilding Campy shifters. I have not opened up an 11-speed shifter (yet). So if that's the case then so be it. But in my opinion the design is still inferior to the older proven design based on my thoughts previously posted. Secondly, it is a big deal. When someone spends over $8,000 on a bike anything is a big deal whether its auto-shifting, creak cracks, slipping seat posts, you name it. In a world of compromise some men don't and I am one of those men. Thirdly, your hyperlink is not relevant to this issue. It's cool what you did but it does not offer any assistance for this type of situation and only confuses the matter at hand. Lastly, your proposed method sounds valid. Their is more than one way to skin a cat. However, it does not stipulate that this method was used on 11-speeds groups.


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## C-40

*???*

Maybe you clicked on my link about the RD, not the shifters. I posted a quick edit. The link to the shifter thread shows what's inside. It is quite relevant. It shows that there are no plastic parts. You don't even need to take the shifter apart to see that. Just look at the opening under the brake hood, where the thumb button travels. You can see both parts that control the indexing.

I still say that you're just whining about your own lack of experience setting up a bike not having cable tension adjusters. I've done it many times and it's not hard at all. I've got two bikes with no adjusters. Never had to try more than twice to get the tension right with new cables and I expect a minor readjustment after the first week of use.

FWIW, the same problem can be created with the old g-spring mechanism. If you set the high limit screw and tension just right, the g-spring will start to drop into a detent, just as the high limit screw stops the cage, but it easily drops back.


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## jberenyi

C-40 said:


> Maybe you clicked on my link about the RD, not the shifters. I posted a quick edit. The link to the shifter thread shows what's inside. It is quite relevant. It shows that there are no plastic parts. You don't even need to take the shifter apart to see that. Just look at the opening under the brake hood, where the thumb button travels. You can see both parts that control the indexing.
> 
> I still say that you're just whining about your own lack of experience setting up a bike not having cable tension adjusters. I've done it many times and it's not hard at all. I've got two bikes with no adjusters. Never had to try more than twice to get the tension right the first with new cables and I expect a minor readjustment after the first week of use.
> 
> FWIW, the same problem can be created with the old g-spring mechanism. If you set the high limit screw and tension just right, the g-spring will start to drop into a detent, just as the high limit screw stops the cage, but it easily drops back.



Glad we can agree to disagree.


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## C-40

*well...*



jberenyi said:


> Glad we can agree to disagree.


Other than those who hooked up the shift cable wrong, no one else has posted a similar complaint on any of the four websites I visit daily.

You could have a defective shifter, but that's an execution problem, not a design problem. The the shifter holds position when adjusted properly, like mine all do, then I don't see the problem.

You might try an '08 QS FD. They are easier to set up and it takes a huge push on the side of the cage to make it move to the left.


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## ericjacobsen3

Jberenyi, I stand corrected that I am still using 4 clicks on my front derailleur. I did still change the setup about half a click to reduce the slipping in the front. You are not the only one with slipping problems as I posted earlier and I did not have the wrong cable routing.

You can avoid most but perhaps not all of the slipping by not trying to trim with two clicks in the big ring. Centering one click for the fder keeps you far from the limit screw so you seat in as good as you ever will in the click. I have been able to avoid chain rub on 10 cogs with the one centered click.

Note the fder has the black plastic chain guide inside that has a 45 degree angle on the bottom edge that aligns with the upper outside edge of the chain. This means that when the cage is set very close to the teeth (mine is about 1mm) there is less effective cage width than with a 3mm gap above the teeth. A larger gap may give more effective cage width and more chance using two clicks without rubbing on the inner click, allowing the outermost click to be further from a limit screw setting avoiding the cage hitting the crank. I haven't tried a large gap since I am OK now with no trim.

I haven't had a slip in about a month. There might be some benefit to a bit of grit and friction building in the system so there is less cable tension from the derailleur spring lasting up to the click spring on the lever.


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## DNM

No way can I get 4 clicks on my SR front. It seemed that would be a good goal, in order to have trim in the big ring, but no-can-do. Cable is routed as shown above (the correct way). Compact cranks. I am considering re-shaping the inner cage. Bike is Specialized Roubaix, with "braze-on" mount. Possibly this makes a difference in the starting point of the swing of the arm. If the mount was more inboard, then I might be able to get another click.


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## ericjacobsen3

I think your experience may be the same as mine: a range of 4 notch positions which is 3 clicks; not able to use two notches on the big ring as the notches are too far apart w/o using the limit screw to push closer (and exacerbate slipping). I therefore use one notch in the big ring, one between big and small is never used, and two are used on the small ring w/ trimming. Works well now with a little grit lowering cable tension.


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## DNM

Yes, I think so. Only way I know to use all 11 rear with big ring is to have noise until chain cuts a groove in the inner cage. Not likely I'll do that.


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## DNM

*How about an FD-CE011?*

I wonder if the FD-CE011 washer would fit and help adjust my cable travel requirements so that I can get the needed 4 clicks instead of 3? Isn't that what it was made for, only to apply to a different FD (Ultra-Shift 10S FD with Escape Shifters)?


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## C-40

*thoughts...*

I think the problem is just a lack of understanding of how to properly setup a FD from scratch. Some part of this very simple process is being overlooked or done improperly.

Always start with cage height an alignment - with the right side of the cage 1-2mm above the teeth of the big ring and parallel with the big ring. This requires moving the cage by hand without the cable attached. 

Next, shift to the largest cog and little ring. Adjust the low limit screw so there is small amount of clearance between the left side of the cage and the chain.

Only after these steps are done should the shift cable be attached (as shown in picture #2). Be sure that the thumb button has been pushed down all the way before attaching the cable. After attaching the cable, increase cable tension until you get significant movement of the cage on the very first click of the finger lever. It only requires 3 clicks in total to shift the chain onto the big ring, but the fourth is required to gain clearance with the chain in the smallest cog. Shift to the smallest cog and verify clearance between the chain an right side of the cage. 

When all of the above is done, there should be one click of the thumb button available to use as a trim to the left. The second click should drop the chain onto the little ring.


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## DNM

*1-2 mm*

As C40 outlined proper set-up, that is exactly what I do. One fine point. When setting up the 1-2 mm of cage above outer ring. I do that with the outer cage directly above the ring (adjustment screw set to hold cage out). So, the 1-2 mm is actual clearance as the cage swings, not a sight measurement when the cage is closer to Centerline of frame.

That is how I have always set FD's.

If that is not correct, then I will re-set and try again. If it is correct, then my question stands... does anyone know if the special washer will help?

I just checked... 4 clicks on my bike and I am completely into the crank arm, when the inside adjustment is correct.. not rubbing when large cog and small ring). I have to adjust the travel per click to be able to use 4 clicks.


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## campagnoloneutron

C-40 said:


> I think the problem is just a lack of understanding of how to properly setup a FD from scratch. Some part of this very simple process is being overlooked or done improperly.
> 
> Always start with cage height an alignment - with the right side of the cage 1-2mm above the teeth of the big ring and parallel with the big ring. This requires moving the cage by hand without the cable attached.
> 
> Next, shift to the largest cog and little ring. Adjust the low limit screw so there is small amount of clearance between the left side of the cage and the chain.
> 
> Only after these steps are done should the shift cable be attached (as shown in picture #2). Be sure that the thumb button has been pushed down all the way before attaching the cable. After attaching the cable, increase cable tension until you get significant movement of the cage on the very first click of the finger lever. It only requires 3 clicks in total to shift the chain onto the big ring, but the fourth is required to gain clearance with the chain in the smallest cog. Shift to the smallest cog and verify clearance between the chain an right side of the cage.
> 
> When all of the above is done, there should be one click of the thumb button available to use as a trim to the left. The second click should drop the chain onto the little ring.


Thanks, this helps a lot to know where the chain is SUPPOSED to be after each click and what the derailleur is SUPPOSED to do after each click; with the set up correctly done. 

I am currently working on my setup (SR11) but at the moment I don't get to the big chainring after the 3rd click as described. ..its almost there but not quite.


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## C-40

*more..*

Assuming that you are not hitting the high limit screw, all you should need is a little more cable tension to get to the big ring in 3 clicks. Either that or you have left too much clearance between the chain and left side of the cage in the little ring and largest cog.


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## campagnoloneutron

C-40 said:


> Assuming that you are not hitting the high limit screw, all you should need is a little more cable tension to get to the big ring in 3 clicks. Either that or you have left too much clearance between the chain and left side of the cage in the little ring and largest cog.


Exactly, either should do it. Tried both. A little more cable tension should quickly do it but creates a different issue... not enough FD travel to complete 4 full clicks. Then when I adjust the chain/FD starting space to less it there is also not enough remaining FD travel available to complete the four clicks completely, I cant open up the right travel more or the outside FD cage rubs the inside crank arm. 

So my alternative remained to then increase the cage/chain set up space to allow for required 4 click travel and but it then live with the required 4th click to get all the way there onto the big chainring. Once there I am able to trim back one click if needed and still stay on the large ring. It shifts very well either direction but just does not conform to the click and position relationships described. I had never previously worried about where everything was click by click, only that I could get clean quick shifts either direction with some room to adjust for chain angle. I do get that, not perfect but probably the best possible with the component combination I used (see below). 

In my case this could all be due to the combination of me using a 10 speed QS FD with all the rest SR11 speed. The slightly narrower width chain + the slightly wider FD cage probably add up to make me need the 4th click to get there. I could get very close with 3 click but just a very small amount more needed. (I do have a SR 11 FD that I will likely try later to see what happens for interest sake) 

For sure it should not take a huge amount of time to set up the FD function nicely if you follow the correct and simple set up routine and if all the parts are matching. Unfortunately I spent a long time today trying to figure out why it did not function the way described... the above explanation is what I came up with... 

Thanks for your time and thoughts, appreciated.


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## ericjacobsen3

Many of us older campy users just view the front clicks as some fine ratchet that never needs to be synchronized precisely; those days are unfortunately gone. As this is the case, I cannot understand why Campy does not now give a inline adjuster. Not too many 11 speed groups are going on frames with the DT adjusters at the old shifter bosses.

The 10 sp. fder situation is unique when used w/ 11 sp. For all 11 spd parts, I say just get your 4th notch aligned to work w/ the 10 smallest cogs w/o rubbing, then start thinking about limit screws. This of course is accepting big ring trim as not needed. This might work with the 10spd fder on 11, but sounds like you need half a notch to deal with the wide cage.


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## campagnoloneutron

Someone asked me for a detail on how my shifting works position by position so here goes... It works well with my new-old parts mix combination (not ideal) 2008 10 sp QS FD with all the rest SR 11sp. Maybe it will help someone else on their set-up too...

going right-towards big chainring - start small chainring, ergo shifter zeroed out. 
first click trims - chain still on small chainring
2nd click trims -chain still on small chainring
(click 3 alone does not quite move enough to go to big chainring so
next I shift the click 3 and click 4 togeher in one sweep to bring chain onto big chainring. Snaps up very nicely as it should. 

going left towards the small chainring from outermost (4th click position) on big chainring
can move back one click to trim if needed -chain stays on big chainring
then just as on the way up the next click alone wont move enough to drop chain to small chainring so I again push the next 2 clicks through in one sweep to drop the chain to the small ring. Does the job quickly, trim as required if needed. A mix of old and new shifting just as the parts involved on my bike...

Not exactly as slick as the new more engineered front shift system; each click with a resultant exact indexed shift and trim positions for both small chainring and big chainring running, which is more precise and logical. ie: click 1 and click 2 trim on small chainring, click 3 brings chain to big ring and click 4 to trim if needed. Same thing in reverse going back to small ring. 

I should be able to achieve the proper indexed front shifting setup on the finished assembly of my other Colnago later this week which will be SR11 sp ALL components without exception! 

Again, as remarked by another reader, until today, I never thought about the front shifting in terms of other than just a series of clicks repeated with no specific result expected for each specific click ... function was just to keep clicking until the desired result was achieved, almost like friction shifting but with clicks. Wrong old style thinking for a true indexed system.


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## C-40

*???*

If the cage hits the crankarm after 4 clicks, that sounds just like what would happen if the cable was not attached properly. The too-short lever arm would cause excessive travel. How about a picture?

With regard to the washer, anything that would cause the cable to sit further away from the pivot would help.

It's most important for the FD to have one trim click to the left, with the thumb button. That could be done even if only 3-clicks are used. Older FDs (pre-2007) only needed 3 clicks. If that one click drops the chain onto the little ring, the cable attachment must be wrong.

Are you increasing the cable tension gradually, and not using any more than it takes to get the FD to shift to the big ring? That's how it should be done.


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## DNM

*Temporary Update*



C-40 said:


> If the cage hits the crankarm after 4 clicks, that sounds just like what would happen if the cable was not attached properly. The too-short lever arm would cause excessive travel. How about a picture?
> 
> With regard to the washer, anything that would cause the cable to sit further away from the pivot would help.
> 
> It's most important for the FD to have one trim click to the left, with the thumb button. That could be done even if only 3-clicks are used. Older FDs (pre-2007) only needed 3 clicks. If that one click drops the chain onto the little ring, the cable attachment must be wrong.
> 
> Are you increasing the cable tension gradually, and not using any more than it takes to get the FD to shift to the big ring? That's how it should be done.


I understand that it is acting like I have cable wrong, but I don't. I can do one thumb click and not derail, but the travel is still too much and tends to want to hit the resin insert. The cage is narrow. I think the washer will work, and ordered one at LBS today. If that is not enough increase in arm length, I will have our model shop mimic the washer and add even more until I get the proper result.

If I lengthen the cable until I can get 4 clicks and not hit the arm, then it is so loose as to make the 1st click meaningless.

I am going to try once more to fine-tune and make things work with 3 clicks. 3rd click shifts it, but will allow one click back to not derail. Then I will either carefully use it until the washer / place comes, or park it and ride old bike.

For now, I am going to sign off on this story, and return when I have the washer / plate installed. Then I will report my findings. If the plate helps, it will be an easy, cheap solution for me and the others on the forum having the same issue.


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## ericjacobsen3

DNM, I would love to know why only you and I are seeing no chance of trim on the big ring. The 1-2mm gap off the teeth for others but really be 3-4mm at closest approach in the diagonal path over the teeth. That or Campy changed something on us. Look forward to your photos.

Have you found you cannot avoid rubbing if you simply center one big ring click?

Are you on a steel frame? I have the one click working on my '09 Madone but any frame flex as once was the case on steel frames and I am sure I would have rub.


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## C-40

*more thoughts...*

I've got two bikes with 11 speed FD and one with an '08 QS FD and they were all easy to set up and all work just fine. The QS FD does requires that fourth click to shift up from the little ring to the big ring, but most people just sweep the finger lever as far as it will go when they make the shift, so it's not even noticeable.

Someone mentioned a lack of cable tension adjustment. I hope I've posted my simple method of adjusting cable tension when there is no adjuster. Sure I'd rather have one, but there is no FD that I've ever seen the has one built into the FD. An inline adjuster could always be added.

Those having major problem with too much travel might want to measure the cable travel. It shuld be very close to 2.5mm or .1 inch for each of the 6 clicks.

One thing that does not make sense to me is the response that setting the low limit screw to position the cage further to the left than needed does not fix the problem. Between that adjustment and tension adjustment, it makes no sense that a fourth click either over shifts and hits the crankarm or under shifts. The available adjustment should be much finer than that. It sounds like lack of mechanical ability to me. 

One thing to keep in mind is that loosening the little ring limit screw will do nothing if the cable tension is high. The tension alone can hold the lever arm off the limit screw.


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## DNM

*Clicks and travel*



C-40 said:


> Those having major problem with too much travel might want to measure the cable travel. It shuld be very close to 2.5mm or .1 inch for each of the 6 clicks.
> 
> One thing that does not make sense to me is the response that setting the low limit screw to position the cage further to the left than needed does not fix the problem. Between that adjustment and tension adjustment, it makes no sense that a fourth click either over shifts and hits the crankarm or under shifts. The available adjustment should be much finer than that. It sounds like lack of mechanical ability to me.


I have verified that the cable movement is uniform, and approximately 2.5mm. In addition, the 3rd click is quite pronounced, which lends credence that the 4th click is meant to be trim (so that trimming does not result in accidental shifting).

Interesting point on further adjustments. Certainly I could back off inside and outside stops and get 4 clicks. However, I am not comfortable with increasing the inner minimum clearance above Campy's recommended 0.5 mm. I hate dropping a chain, and I dont; have one of Boonen's "fancy" chain catcher.. To me the given is to proper set stops, then adjust cable.

In answer to another comment, the frame is a S-works SL2 Roubaix.

Early on, I also wrote Peter of Vecchio's, and mentioned 3 clicks. He never questioned the 3 clicks, but stated that for some customers he has put on 10S FD's to get around run issues.

I will fix this. Again, when I get the washer / plate, I think it will do the trick (if it fits). I was measuring the arm last night, and it appears running the cable that much farther out will very closely change the advantage by 4/3, perfect for moving from 3 to 4 clicks. If not quite, I can loosen the outer stop a bit, but, again, do not want to move the inner stop.


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## C-40

*oops...*

I forgot about the possibility of dropping the chain. I'm sure that the setting can be fudged a little, but probably not a lot, but cable tension certainly can.

You migh also try using the second through fifth clicks or even the third through sixth, just to see if it works any different. The cable pulls all appear to be the same on the shifters I've checked.


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## ericjacobsen3

If you back off the screws on both ends to use 4 clicks, I think that really just means trying to squeeze 2 clicks on the big ring. On the small ring I have been avoided small ring chain rub in all gears both with two ideally aligned clicks for the big ring and one centered for the big ring, so I would think you could do the same.

Are you saying you cannot even get the chain to move to the small ring if you set the lower screw to just avoid rub on the small ring/ biggest cog? Wouldn't this set screw position be set the same regardless of the click alignment?


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## DNM

*Report on adding the FD-CE011*



ericjacobsen3 said:


> I think your experience may be the same as mine: a range of 4 notch positions which is 3 clicks; not able to use two notches on the big ring as the notches are too far apart w/o using the limit screw to push closer (and exacerbate slipping). I therefore use one notch in the big ring, one between big and small is never used, and two are used on the small ring w/ trimming. Works well now with a little grit lowering cable tension.


Worked as well as I had hoped. I left inner stop the same, and had to only open the outer stop 1/4 turn to allow 4 clicks. Most of the time, 3 clicks will shift onto large ring. Sometimes it takes the 4th. In practice, I will always just sweep it, and go back one if the rear position calls for it.

This gives the trim on both rings. Possibly still a little more trim than ideal, in that each position is good for about 6 cogs, not much range overlap, but much better than before. On the street, I do get a touch of rub in Big-Big, which I could get out if I changed the cage angle a tiny bit, but this is not an issue to me. I was not after Big-Big, but only to be able to use the big ring with the 3&4th cogs. On the small ring, there is lots of room left even when Small-Small.

So, I suggest this is a good fix, for any that has the problem of no trim on the large ring. 

I do have some pics....

Top one is with the adaptor plate (new method)
Next is a reference of where the cable exits the frame on this bike (right on the centerline)
3. Original routing that yielded 3 clicks and no usable big ring trim
4. Big-Big when on the 3rd click. 
5. Small-Small when on the 1st click.


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## Clifford Feldman

*Crummy SR 11 Speed Front Derailleur Shifting to big ring*

This is my first post on any tech forum. I am hoping someone can help. I am putting together a brand new bike. It is a 2010 Scott Addict R-1 with a BB-68 press-in bottom bracket cup set from Campy. The group is all Campy 11 Super Record components without exception. I have closely followed thread and have done the proper cable routing as advised.
Problem: Shifting the front derailleur to the big 50 tooth ring while actually riding is a problem. I will actuate 4 clicks of the lever, but the chain just rubs against the derailleur cage until it eventually goes on the large ring, or, I release the cable tension and try again. When the bike is on a work-stand, it shifts to the large ring instantly. There is no problem shifting from the large chainring to the small (34) under any circumstances.
Things I've tried:
- Added a front derailleur cable tensioner.
- Read this thread over & over and followed all recommendations regarding cable routing.
-Opened the outer limit screw to allow the cage to travel further, but it always requires a release of the thumb lever to move the cage back.
- Careful and conservative adjustment of the inside limit screw to allow the 4 clicks, which BTW is a very large nad somewhat awkward swing of the shift lever. This is all a new experience. My 2007 Record 10 Front derailleur was superb. My 2001 Daytona FD was quite good and the Shimano Dura Ace 7900 FD (and group) that was briefly on this frame worked flawlessly.
Since Friday, I have been in 2 bike shops, and paid both mechanics. They were satisfied that it shifted well-enough on the workstand, but did not actually ride it. I spend the weekend searching for information.
I hope C-40 and company can shed some light!!


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## C-40

*thoughts....*

I'm not sure that I can help, other than reiterating what's already been covered in this thread. There are no tricks to setting up the FD. The outer cage must be parallel to the big ring and 1-2mm above the big ring. The low limit screw should be adjusted before the cable is attached to the FD, so there is no chain rub in the little ring and largest cog.

Attach the shift cable and increase tension until the shift to the big ring executes with 4 clicks. The very first click of the finger lever should cause the FD cage to move to the right. If not, the tension is much too low. If you don't like the amount of lever travel required for 4 clicks, there's nothing to do about that, except buy some other brand.

I have two frames that don't even have tension adjusters and I've had no problem with front shifting. I get the cable tension I need by screwing the low limit screw in about 1/2 turn, after I've adjusted it to elminate any chain rub. I attach the cable, pulling it tight with pliers, then return the low limit screw to it's proper position. This creates more cable tension.

There's not too much to the big ring limit screw either. The cage sits so close to the crankarm, that loosening it very much will cause the cage to hit the crankarm.

There's always the chance of a defective FD. Buy a cheaper Record or Chorus model and try it. Before doing that, check your chainline. Use a precision scale and measure from the side of the seat tube to the tip of a tooth on the little ring. Add half the ST diameter and the total should be very close to 40mm.


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## Clifford Feldman

*Trouble with Super Record Front Derailleur Setup*

Thanks to C-40 for the timely and helpful response. It is comforting to hear that FD setup is not magic or complex. I have never had this much trouble with FD setup in my life. I've been a road bike rider/owner for 48 years.
The frame in question is a Scott Addict R-1 with an intergrated carbon fiber braze-on FD mount. Scott provides a curved carbon fiber washer for mounting between the head of the bolt and the braze-on mount. The only problem with this is that the increased thickness of these carbon components limits the distance the bolt can thread into the alloy threads of the F-derailleur. The threads of the single bolt only engages from 3-4 full turns. I think a longer bolt is needed to take advantage of the unused thread depth.
Here is a question. Should anything be applied between the alloy front derailleur body and the braze-on mount? My last bike had a thin piece of latex film between the mount and the Dura-Ace FD. That derailleur worked perfectly and never required any refinement. I did not even have a tension adjuster. The new Scott frame did not include any materials or special instructions re: the mounting of a front derailleur.
Today, I had problems with the unwanted pivoting of the FD on the braze-on mount. I used a torque wrench and tightened to the recommended torque of 4 newton-meters. Twice I reset the derailleur position and both times it moved after about 5-6 good shifts from (small to big chainrings). Later in this session, I installed the old piece of latex film between the alloy derailleur and the carbon braze-on. Following this, the FD has held its position and has not slipped. Is there a brush-on compound intended for this purpose? Following this, I have had the longest series of predicatable shifts. I did notice that following some shifts, the left lever released from the 4th click by itself. This has happened on 2 - 3 occasions. I have never gotten any surprises like this with my 2007 Record 10 levers or the 2001 Daytona levers. At the present time, I am wondering if buying the Super Record 10 was a colossal mistake. Does anyone know how to contact Campagnolo Tech support. Does anyone know how to make a warranty claim? I have noticed that my left shift lever has a problem engaging and holding the 4th click. I have some significant wear on the front chainrings from this trial and error process. They look bad considering that the bike has less than 25 miles on it. And BTW, I paid 2 professional bike-mechanics to get it right and they both failed. Unfortunately, I am learning that few LBS mechanics have a clue about this Campy 11 FD stuff. The rear derailleur has been very good. The only issue is that the Rear Derailler cage is really close to the spokes of the rear wheel and I don't think there is any space to insert a shim on the freehub body to move the cogs further away from the spokes. Any thoughts on this?


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## volubilis

One other thought on your original problem - Campy 11sp shifter cables are sensitive to sharp bends and friction, as has been noted here in numerous posts. This seems to generate concern and trouble with the RD more often than FD, at least in the forum, but it can affect FD performance. It is conceivable that if you have a little too much FD cable friction related to cable routing out of the shifter/on the bar/ through the frame somewhere it might produce exactly the problem you describe, including not affecting the shift from large to small ring.


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## tom_h

Clifford,
The Campy FD instruction sheet lists 7 N-m (5.2 ft-lb) for the braze-on bolt ... if you tightened to only 4 N-m, maybe that's why FD was slipping.

Or is that the Scott spec?? Something about "carbon fiber washer" and "CF braze-on mount"?? Does Scott provide _both_ the carbon washer And the FD screw?? And you use that, instead of the Campy screw/washer?

If the latex film provides more "grip", use it. Carbon assembly paste would provide similar benefit, and is typically used on any carbon-carbon, or carbon-aluminum, interface where high friction is needed. It's a gel substance with a gritty feel between fingertips.

Still, I'd be more comfortable with full thread engagement, ie a longer screw.

You wrote: 
" _... following some shifts, the left lever released from the 4th click by itself. This has happened on 2 - 3 occasions ..._ "

This implies the FD cage, is insufficiently "outboard". Turn the outer limit screw 1/2 turn out (CCW) & re-evalauate. 

If the inner cage position & cable tension are set correctly, the outer cage position is _set by the shifter, not the limit screw_ ... the limit is there as safety stop of last resort. 

But, you also wrote:
"_Opened the outer limit screw to allow the cage to travel further, but it always requires a release of the thumb lever to move the cage back_"
Why do you need to "move back" the FD cage? What's the issue when the cage is fully outboard?

Another thought - are you sure the FD cable housing/casing is firmly seated in the shifter body ? It's preferable (but not absolutely mandatory) to have the nice, square, factory cut end of the housing, in the shifter body -- trim the _other_ end.

Also, there's supposed to be a small brass flat washer in the shifter, for the cable casing to butt against. Sometimes this flat washer can get poked out by threading the cable thru the shifter body, and this _might_ cause some variability.

PS: insert some paragraph breaks in your next post, for added "white space" ... it's _really_ hard to read when it's that dense ;-)


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## Clifford Feldman

*Front Derailleur Issues*

Thank you for the replies and assistance.

At the present time, The front derailleur is functioning well.

When mounting the FD in the last iteration, I inserted a small piece of latex film between the F derailleur and the carbon mount that was left-over from another Scott Addict bike build. I am not sure if this film originated from Scott or my LBS. Additionally, I used a different, but similar, bolt to fasten the derailleur.

This new Scott Addict frame was packaged with a sealed packet of pink Ritchey lube. As directed, I used the carbon lube for inserting and fastening the seat post. I did not not think about using it for mounting the FD. I may try this the next time I reassemble the front drivetrain.

The frame has a note near the "braze-on" mount that lists the maximum torque as "40kgf*cm." This converted to 3.93 newton meters. As you can probably guess, this is a very small amount of torque and probably explains the poor performance which was probably caused by movement of the front derailleur.

Scott provides the carbon curved washer. In fact, they attach it to the braze-on mount with an electrician's plastic tie so you can't miss it. I will continue to use this curved carbon washer. It makes sense to pair it with the full carbon braze-on mount instead of the steel washer provided by campy.

I believe it is important to get a longer mounting bolt to engage the additional threads that are available on the FD.

Regarding cables/housing, I am using the set of Campy cables that were provided with the group. The printed instructions that were provided with the cable set did not match the product. The derailleur cables were not prelubed and did not have factory-attached ferrules. In fact, the assembly would not allow the use of an derailleur ferrules at the lever. The provided documention has not caught up with the revised product. 

In any event, the cables move freely, the housings are properly shouldered in the levers and cable movement is not an issue.

At this time, I believe the problem was caused by movement of the FD on the mount.

Next steps for me are:

1. Obtain a slightly longer mounting bolt.

2. Try the Ritchey pink carbon compound to the mating parts.
or, obtain a newer piece of the latex film, wherever it came from.

Unfortunately, during this learning process, my SR chainrings wore through some of the gray hard-anodizing. The carbon cage of the FD was nicked when the chain jammed between the cage and chainring. 

BTW, I am of the opinion that annodizing chain rings is a stupid and futile process. It looks cool in the box, but immediately shows wear even under the best circumstances.

Another Question: Has anyone found it necessary to use a shim washer to offset the 11 speed cassette further away from the spokes?

Thanks again.


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## C-40

*more...*

The FD failing to stay in the fully right position is almost always a case of the limit screw needing to be backed out, but probably as little as 1/8-1/4 turn. As also mentioned, the proper cable tension is really what should limit the travel. 

I'd try carbon assembly paste on the FD mount and get an ordinary M5 bolt that's a little longer, assuming that the carbon fiber washer provided by Scott has a flat surface on the bolt head side. The Campy bolt has a captive washer that is curved to mate with more common steel braze-ons. 3-4 turns of engagement really should be adequate though, since a typical nut only has that many turns of engagement.


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## tom_h

Clifford, great your FD is working OK now :thumbsup: 

re Anodizing :

After 3K miles, I have some anodization wear-off near tips of chainring teeth; it eventually occurs, regardless.

The anodization protects the entire remaining portion of the chain rings from oxidation/corrosion, so it's definitely not "futile". Enough residual chain lube gets on the teeth, to protect the teeth.

re Cassette spacers: what wheels are you using? Consult the wheel Mfr, it's possible they offer or recommend a thin (eg, 0.5mm ?) spacer for the Campy 11. 

On my Campy Shamal wheel, the minimum space between RD cage and spokes is the thickness of a popsicle stick, about 2-2.5mm. The RD's most _inboard _position is set by the shifter -- the inner limit screw is to positively prevent the RD cage from ever hitting the spokes, and _not_ to provide the "optimal" RD alignment or shifting.

PS: your last post is much more readable, with the extra white space ;-)


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## Maverick

hello all,

old topic, but just a heads-up to inform you guys that the latest Campagnolo Front Derailleur instructions stated that the F/D operation should be in 3-steps (Feb 2011)

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/11s_Front_derailleur.pdf

and I have 4 steps on my SR 2011 :shocked: 

cheers!


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## tom_h

Yes, Campy now seems very emphatic about 3 clicks on the FD!

My 2009 FD could work on 3 clicks ... once set it up that way ... but 4 clicks seems to give more cage trimming positions: 2 on small chainring, 2 on large chainring.

Finally! Figure 6 in the english section i san improvement, it shows a diagram of the correct cable routing ... couple years ago, we were left to trial & error :-/

The instruction in 5.2.3 seems obscure: 
_"adjust travel limit screw to bring it flush (fig 9)"_
To bring WHAT flush to WHAT ELSE ??


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## Maverick

@tom_h,

well the "bring it to flush" thing is exactly what i'm trying to figure out.
perhaps Campagnolo is requesting users to gradually trim the outer limit screws while maintaining the cable tension on the cable adjuster on the frame?

as a matter of fact, i'm having issues with the outer limit screws and cable adjusters on the frame. loosening the screws (counterclockwise) is suppose to bring the F/D cage outwards on the large chainring, but it seems that is not always the case. as for the cable adjusters on the frame, rotating it counterclockwise (which means the cable adjuster spring is gradually expanding) is suppose to push the F/D outwards as well, am I right?  

btw, on the 2011 SR groupset if that matters. 

cheers!


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## tom_h

Maverick said:


> ...
> as a matter of fact, i'm having issues with the outer limit screws and cable adjusters on the frame. loosening the screws (counterclockwise) is suppose to bring the F/D cage outwards on the large chainring, but it seems that is not always the case.
> ...


Don't know why that would be the case. 
Try shifting FD to small chainring to remove pressure from the outboard limit screw (lower of the 2 limit screws on FD), then shift back to large chainring ... there should have been movement of the cage (assuming there's no binding mechanical parts).

When FD is on small chainring , you should also be able to move FD freely by hand ... the spring is quite strong, however.



Maverick said:


> ... as for the cable adjusters on the frame, rotating it counterclockwise (which means the cable adjuster spring is gradually expanding) is suppose to push the F/D outwards as well, am I right?


Yes, correct. Increasing the effective length of the cable housing will increase tension and move FD outboard, UNLESS the outer limit screw is preventing further movement. 

Also refer to C-40's earlier comment on 05-25-2010 05:38 AM.


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## Maverick

thanks tom_h, will have a look at C-40's comment.

cheers!


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