# Appeal to Troy of Ligero



## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

Please respond to my emails. I ordered my set of wheels from you more than 4 months ago and still haven't received them. I've emailed you numerous times to at least send me the details on when and how you shipped them but received no response. I've tried calling you long distance so many times but the number listed on your website doesn't seem to work.

I hope that you can fulfill our business transaction and send my WHEELS!

John Fajardo


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

John,,

I can understand your frustration, but why air it out in a public forum? If you want to try to contact him here why not PM?

No need to drag this one sided view to the masses..


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

Why don't we let the moderators decide that. 

I'm trying to reach out to anyone here in this forum who can help me track him and try to get to the bottom of this. I've been very very patient but it has ran out.

If ever I really did get scammed, I think it would be useful for everyone else who is considering buying wheels from him rethink.

If I'm wrong, I will publicly apologize and retract what I wrote on this forum. After all, the wealth of knowledge and exchange of opinions here persuaded me to go to one of the wheelbuilders that contribute here.

Again I appeal to Troy or if anyone here who can help me get my wheels or my money back.

Thanks


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## boyschoirbj (Nov 25, 2008)

penn_rider said:


> John,,
> 
> I can understand your frustration, but why air it out in a public forum? If you want to try to contact him here why not PM?
> 
> No need to drag this one sided view to the masses..



I think it's just fitting for john11f to air his frustration. The money that we put into our sport is pretty serious IMHO. They smile that we get when we upgrade our components is next to nothing. Let john11f's experience serve as a warning or an if Ligero does not push thru with the deal.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

I have sent him a email. Part of the reason his wheel took so long is they have custom decals that I had to wait for from Edge, When they were sent they were held because Fedex had suspended delivery to Thailand and they have now been resent to the a different address supplied by him in the Philippines.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

boyschoirbj said:


> I think it's just fitting for john11f to air his frustration. The money that we put into our sport is pretty serious IMHO. They smile that we get when we upgrade our components is next to nothing. Let john11f's experience serve as a warning or an if Ligero does not push thru with the deal.


BIG +1, 

I read a warning about him a while ago when I was researching builders. Posts like this will let others know what to expect from particular venders and in a sense not let members of the forum be prayed upon by not so scrupulous vendors (not meaning any vendor in particular). I guess it's just like when a builder does a bang up job at a good price or goes out of the way to help his customer, it's nice to see that, free publicity and everyone is happy unfortunately just the opposite here. 
If a post like this was read by the OP before going with Ligero then maybe he would be cruisin' on some sweet wheels right now and the world would be a better place!!! (or at least still have the cash to buy some wheels). JMO


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## Mashmaniac (Jun 21, 2004)

Another bad experience from Ligero!!! I posted my terrible experience with this guy. My dealings with him rank as one of the worst expeiences I ever had from any vendor. I'd never recommend him to anyone. 

This guy needs to stop taking peoples money up front and stop quoting delivery dates he can't make. Beware of this vendor.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

In this age of (almost) instant communication why on earth wouldn't someone take a few seconds to *communicate*?


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

I was put off a couple of years ago, after a conversation with him. I wanted one thing, he wanted to build another and intimated that he knew what I needed better than I did. 
Then he wanted 50% up front...
Sorry, I can see a non-refundable 10%, but I'm not sheckling $350-400 for a 3-4 month wait.

Source the parts yourself and find a builder that's local.


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## Mashmaniac (Jun 21, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> Source the parts yourself and find a builder that's local.



This is probaly the bestl advice to be found regarding wheels that i learned the hard way. I found one one the best local wheelbuilders by asking around. I couldn't be happier and if I have a problem I can take it to him and he can fix it quickly.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

"take a few seconds to communicate?"- totally agree, especially if your client is half way around the world and waiting on his purchase.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

We have a whole section dedicated to "reviews" of parts. Perhaps a vendors area should be added to that section.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

I've ordered two wheelsets from Troy (last year and a few months ago). The wheels are worth the wait.


His new hubs are amazing.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

Troy has emailed me. He said the wheels will be shipping. I emailed him back and gave 2 addresses to chose from where to ship them. 

I ordered through him because I agree to his price and claimed standard of build quality. 

I stand by my word. I will delete this thread as soon as I ride my wheels.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I agree that communication is key, but we are still only getting part of the story here. Troy makes some pretty unique stuff, so I assume the OP went to him for that unique approach. Dealing with small one/two man shops can be a real crap shoot, whether it is bike parts, drums, whatever. Most of these guys and girls are doing as a part-time job, after they work a 8-10 hour day at their "real" job. They also are slave to their supply chain. It isn't like they can go out back to their factory and make spokes or rims or whatever part they need. I've seen it hundreds of times. People want what they want and get frustrated when they don't get it in what they assume to be a timely manner. Granted, it sounds like the communication channels could have been more open and flowing in this instance. Sounds to me like the only warning Troy's work deserves is that he isn't a great communicator.


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## Weav (Jun 21, 2009)

Thanks Ligero for responding with a reasonable explanation. Looking forward to this thread being deleted once the OP is satisfied with his product. I might suggest in the future that Ligero go a little extra mile in the customer service department especially when there is a delay. I know we're all busy but there are some builders on this forum that go well beyond what is expected, Sean from Rol Wheels for example. That's how you grow a business. Communication with the customer is King! A phone call to each customer might take a few more minutes but it will go a long way towards ensuring that your business will continue to thrive, and reduce headaches. Ligero has one of the best hubs on the market, just think if he should raise his customer service to that level, he'd be unstoppable. I wish you well with your business, you have some sweet hubs.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I've happily ordered several sets of wheels from Troy. Wait a bit? Sure but not as long as the 6 months I waited for my Helix OS after ordering it. More importantly was the wait worth it? Absolutely, almost 20,000 miles on the Tune based hubs Troy built for me over 4 years ago and still my favorite wheels by far.:thumbsup:


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## bstendig (Jul 10, 2007)

I agree with a previous reply that we should have a "review" category for custom wheel builders, whether they are one-person builders or on-line "corporate" vendors such as Nimble. Reviewers often post their satisfaction, or dissatisfaction, with customer service from corporate manufacturers of frames, wheels, etc; why not a review section for custom wheel builders to provide consumers considering that option with information not only about the quality of the build and the parts used but also how the builder addresses problems that arise during the build process and/or after the wheels have been delivered to the buyer.


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

John11f, it is too bad you have been waiting this long. but, you will absolutely love the wheels. i have bought 4 pairs of Troy's wheels and i do not think i wil ever go to anyone else. he is a one man show and with a lot of talent when it comes to building wheels. he also has offerings that no one else has. the fact that i can get my rims ceramic coated in black and they look and perform great are worht the wait for me. there are other offerings that will fill anyones wishes.

granted that the leadtime is sometimes too long, but, like i said, worth the wait.


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## mellowman (Apr 17, 2004)

I'm actually surprised Troy takes orders from Thailand and Philippines. Given my experiences on Ebay I wouldn't (though never had any dealings with Thai addresses, only Phil.).


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> We have a whole section dedicated to "reviews" of parts. Perhaps a vendors area should be added to that section.


I think this is a great idea. Maybe a review section strictly for custom builders. Moderators should make this happen!


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm not sure why you should feel the need to delete the thread. If Ligero went weeks or months with your money and without answering your e-mails, you have every reason to be frustrated. Maybe there's a good reason why he wouldn't respond to an e-mail address that he presumably uses to take orders, but did respond here in less than a day, but it's hard for me to imagine what that would be. I expect that you'll be satisfied with the product, but I think you'd be doing the community a disservice by deleting the thread. Instead, why don't you just follow up with the final outcome?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

john11f said:


> I will delete this thread as soon as I ride my wheels.


FYI ... forum users cannot delete threads. You can delete the content of your posts, but you can't delete the content of other people's replies that have quoted your post. You can ask a moderator to delete a thread. I'm not sure that they would since a thread contains other people's posts/opinions/rebuttals, not just yours.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't have anything personal against Troy. I've lurked and searched this forum before finally choosing him to build my wheels. When I decided which among his wheels to get, I contacted and fully paid him asap. I agreed to the schedule of delivery he imposed which was mid-April. It is way beyond that time, I believe I have the right to gripe.

I'm sure I will love his wheels as long as I get them. When I do, I will re-visit this thread I created and respond accordingly.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

mellowman said:


> I'm actually surprised Troy takes orders from Thailand and Philippines. Given my experiences on Ebay I wouldn't (though never had any dealings with Thai addresses, only Phil.).


If you're a seller and getting the money first, you can't really lose, can you? Buying from some of those locations might be a little sketchier, due to frequent scams.


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## mellowman (Apr 17, 2004)

fallzboater said:


> If you're a seller and getting the money first, you can't really lose, can you? Buying from some of those locations might be a little sketchier, due to frequent scams.


Well, as a seller I don't see the transaction over till the buyer gets the item. This story isn't over and it would seem this thread could have been avoided.

Also, don't think because you have money in hand that you can't lose. I had a buyer from the Phil. win an auction and I had to promise to ship the same day he made payment otherwise he wouldn't pay. So I make the promise and then don't take the bait and wait a day to ship. Sure enough next day paypal cancels the transaction citing stolen account reported. If I had shipped the item I'd probably would have been screwed. I'm not sure what new scams they come up with as I just refused to deal with them and some other countries.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Good tips, thanks.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Well considering that Edge custom wheels are $2000+ dollars. I'd be a little upset if I pre-paid that much and didn't hear back from the vendor.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

Sigh....Troy, I'm rooting for you, but you're in risky territory. Some unsolicited advice: 

Your wheels are truly great. No one has anything be great things to say about them. I literally cannot find a single disparaging word about them from any review, so it's too bad the business side of things appears not to be clicking as smoothly as the pawls in your hubs. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but my own business experience tells me that this may be a classic case of a talented engineer who has neither the time nor inclination to deal with business tasks like communicating with customers. Guess what: That's actually OK. It's neither your strength nor interest. Maybe you just want to design and build wheels. On top of that, maybe your order book is so full that you need to spend all your time building wheels. But you do need to find a way to take care of your business too. 

If I were in your Sidis, I'd hire a business assistant, even part time, so you can focus on your strength: Wheel engineering and building. You'll probably even sleep better and enjoy your work more. I suppose there is a calculation you need to make to determine if the extra time spent building wheels will result in enough additional income to support an employee, but since your wheels are great, it seems like the demand for them could grow enough to support that. And if you can devote more time to cranking out more wheels...faster, then maybe it makes financial sense. 

I hope you can learn from the experiences of many others in similar circumstances and hire some business help. You're at a fork in the road where one path leads to failure and the other to a growing business and satisfying career. 

For my part, I have one of the very first wheelsets with your v2 hubs and they are great great great. Best wheels I have ever owned, and I have owned (and raced) a lot, some costing double what these Kinlin-rimmed wheels cost.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

As I stated before, I've purchased two wheelsets and a fork from Troy. His hubs and build quality are superb. Overall, my questions were promptly answered and he has excellent recommendations for wheels. The best customer service award goes to Lynskey but Troy's service is certainly fine based on my experience.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

Lookbiker said:


> As I stated before, I've purchased two wheelsets and a fork from Troy. His hubs and build quality are superb.


He must be pretty attatched to his hubs also since it seems he doesn't want to give them up!

To everyone singing Ligero's praises, would you give the man 2K at this point for a promise of a great set of wheels not knowing if or when your going to get them?

If so I have some beautiful ocean front property in Kansas I can sell ya at a great deal... 

Edit: Hey, I feel bad for the guy too, who knows what he's going thru right now, but I would hate to promote him and send people his way until he gets his stuff squared away. Who knows his home could be in foreclosure, his wiife may have left him penniless and he may just be doing what he can to survive. 

I would suggest not promoting this guy until he does right by the ones that have handed him so much money in good faith.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

If I had 2k right now, I would get a 3rd set from Ligero based on my past transactions. 

JimT, have you dealt with Ligero Wheelworks or just badmouthing a company with no firsthand experience yourself?


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

Lookbiker said:


> If I had 2k right now, I would get a 3rd set from Ligero based on my past transactions.
> 
> JimT, have you dealt with Ligero Wheelworks or just badmouthing a company with no firsthand experience yourself?


I have not dealt with Ligero and wont due to the reviews I have read about his customer service. I commend you on your patience when it comes to your money but saying it and doing it are two different things huh? I am sure you can come up with some extra money to send him for new wheels. I could not and would not put up 2K of my hard earned money for 6 months of not knowing where it went. 

I would feel different if he would answer emails and give updates and be within a month of estimated completion dates but from the different complaints I have read on various threads he doesn't (dont ask me to post them here you can do a search). Why in world would I throw a fistful of dollars in the air when there are many builders out there that provide what they say or you actually get what you pay for.

Would you say that he is providing good customer service to these folks that have forked up so much money and have waited months with no reply? 

I don't

P.S. Just a thought, why dont you ask the OP or someone else who is on the waiting list if you can buy him out it?


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

JimT said:


> I I commend you on your patience when it comes to your money but saying it and doing it are two different things huh? I am sure you can come up with some extra money to send him for new wheels.
> 
> 
> Saying versus doing it? I bought and received Ligero wheels _last month_. I'm not going to get another set this month to prove a point on the internet. That's not to say that I wouldn't like to......... .


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Mashmaniac said:


> Another bad experience from Ligero!!! I posted my terrible experience with this guy. My dealings with him rank as one of the worst expeiences I ever had from any vendor. I'd never recommend him to anyone.


I have contacted you twice to try and find out who you are and what I did to you that was so wrong that you take any opportunity to bash me. You ignored both of my attempts so I am not sure what else I am suppose to do? The only thing I can find is that you broke a spoke but not would not contact me to try and get a replacement. As far as I can tell it may have been 3 to 4 years ago and you are still going out of your way to bash me. 



fallzboater said:


> but did respond here in less than a day,


The reason I responded in less then a day is because someone called me and told me about the thread. Otherwise it could have been 2 to 4 days before I saw it because I don't come on here that much at all anymore. 



backinthesaddle said:


> I was put off a couple of years ago, after a conversation with him. I wanted one thing, he wanted to build another and intimated that he knew what I needed better than I did.
> Then he wanted 50% up front...
> Sorry, I can see a non-refundable 10%, but I'm not sheckling $350-400 for a 3-4 month wait.


I have tried contacting you as well to find out how I offended you but got now reply back. How do you expect people to fix something if they never know about the problem and then we they find out there is issue they can't find out what it actually is. 

Not to be rude but I may actually know better what you need then you do, from a wheel standpoint. I have people call me all the time with what they think will work but it is actually a really bad build for them. 

As far as a 50% deposit goes that is pretty standard. I believe every builder on here gets at least that or the full amount up front. 



mellowman said:


> I'm actually surprised Troy takes orders from Thailand and Philippines.


I take orders from anywhere and for the most part give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are not trying to scam me. 



Wines of WA said:


> Some unsolicited advice:


I have taken your advice in the past and consider your advice to be good advice even if it is unsolicited. 



Wines of WA said:


> I'd hire a business assistant, even part time, so you can focus on your strength: Wheel engineering and building. You'll probably even sleep better and enjoy your work more. I suppose there is a calculation you need to make to determine if the extra time spent building wheels will result in enough additional income to support an employee, but since your wheels are great, it seems like the demand for them could grow enough to support that. And if you can devote more time to cranking out more wheels...faster, then maybe it makes financial sense.


I hope you can learn from the experiences of many others in similar circumstances and hire some business help. You're at a fork in the road where one path leads to failure and the other to a growing business and satisfying career. [/QUOTE] 

Easier said then done. I have hired people and both times I came out of it loosing money and customers. I would really like to have someone working with me but I think it will take someone being invested in the business for it to work. 



JimT said:


> I have not dealt with Ligero and wont due to the reviews I have read about his customer service.


Yet you will take time to bash me. You say that you feel sorry for me and I may just be making it and need every penny I make but in the same breath warn people not to buy from me. So you want me to make it but also don't want people to buy things from me?

Also keep in mind that for every one of these threads about me being such a horrible guy ripping people off I could make 3 times the amount for guys on this very forum that has ripped me off, cost me money or just been a completely unreasonable person. The problem is if someone makes a thread about me it is to warn consumers, if I made a thread about a bad customer it would be seen as whining and inappropriate.


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

*I love my Ligero built wheels*

At the end of the day, that's all that matters.
Out of the box, I had a small problem, (it was an issue with the new hub, not a build issue.)
Once we discovered that the hub manufacturer had used a non-spec spacer, Troy sent the correct one by overnight courier. All has been well ever since.
Best of all, if you take all the good things people say about Troy's wheels, you describe my experience, too.

Steve
Tucson


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## bolt30 (Sep 4, 2006)

*The Bad and the Good*

I think what Wines of WA said is dead on. I am a customer of Troy's who ran into some delivery issues. The short version of the story is I have been waiting for months on delivery of a set of wheels Troy sent a while back. I lived overseas and they are being shipped to a military APO address. When I didn't receive them after a month from being notified they shipped I began reaching out to Troy. As many have stated, it was very difficult getting in touch with him or getting any details about how they were shipped, were they insured, etc. Customer service is something Troy can definitely improve, although he is going through some personal stuff right now. That being said, once I finally was able to establish good contact with him and I explained my frustration Troy went ahead and built a second set of wheels and sent them to my address in the US, where I now am. The wheels are Edge 1.45, so, in the end, Troy fronted a very expensive wheel set to make things right. That's pretty damn good and he spent the extra money to ship them express. They arrived yesterday and I'm travelling right now, so haven't seen them yet. But, as Wines mentioned, I'm not at all concerned about the build quality--I, too, have never seen a negative word about Troy's wheel builds, which is why I went with him.

So, in the end, I dealt with some frustration. But, Troy also made things right in a big way. Who knows if the original set of wheels will every show up at my APO address. Troy sent me a duplicate set anyway. Yeah, he has them insured, but he will still have to deal with the hassle of making the claim if they are lost in the military postal system (which, unfortunately does tend to happen). Would I order from him again? I'll make that decision after I get some miles on the wheels. But if they are built as well as I expect them to be then yes, I would order from him again and will in the near future as I have another project in mind.


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## JerryZ (Dec 25, 2001)

I've been reading this same 'ol story for years about this guy. If you ever expect him to start giving decent customer service, quit throwing money at him. There is no product that is good enough to make up for lousy customer service. Nobody's fault but your own IMHO.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

*Appeal Again*

Hi,

Can anyone please help me contact Troy? I have emailed him 1 week after I posted this thread to follow up on how my order is progressing. Still no reply until now.

I think I might have to ask for a refund. But, WHERE TO FIND YOU TROY? PLEASE, I'm begging!


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## lanpope (Nov 16, 2002)

This is BS! 

Dude...you are in Thailand and you ordered wheels from Chattanooga TN to get a good deal and surprise surprise there were problems with shipping. Quit whining. Troy will get you your wheels or give you your money back. He is not a crook or some fly by night builder.

Trying to get immediate satisfaction by messing with his reputation on a public forum and saying you will "delete the post" when you are satisfied is just weak. Plain and simple...weak! 

I have 2 sets of wheels from Troy. He has worked on several other wheels for me. I have two wheelset orders with him now. They are behind schedule, but I will get my wheels and they will rock, and if they break, he will fix them.

LP


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Not all BS

Just because you have $2400 or more in wheels from Troy does not mean that he lacks in customer service and or problems with getting them built and shipped...

I believe that he has some of the nicest hubs out there and from all reports is a fine wheel builder... BUT,,, I have had the worst potential - CS from him. My story is like the OP except that I couldn't even get to the point of purchasing wheels. Knee deep in our conversation about them, I said yes to a certain build, even planned a trip to his place to pick up, but then nothing, no response, not a word. Cost me a day of work... Then his plea for advice and I contacted him again. We talked via email and he was going to call and we would discuss, not only wheels, but also about ideas concerning direction with his company.
But, no call ever came and I gave up.. I am still interested in his wheels, but not until something changes for the better...

He may be a fine wheel builder, and I am sure that you that have them enjoy them,, but it is a known problem with his CS, no matter where you are from...


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

lanpope said:


> This is BS!
> 
> Dude...you are in Thailand and you ordered wheels from Chattanooga TN to get a good deal and surprise surprise there were problems with shipping. Quit whining. Troy will get you your wheels or give you your money back. He is not a crook or some fly by night builder.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your lengthy reply. I'm not BS-ing. This is fact. I wish you knew the whole story.

I'm sure I'll be satisfied with Troy's wheels and I'm happy that you are. He has emailed me and said I'll be getting them within 5 days. I can't wait.


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## boyschoirbj (Nov 25, 2008)

lanpope said:


> This is BS!
> 
> Dude...you are in Thailand and you ordered wheels from Chattanooga TN to get a good deal and surprise surprise there were problems with shipping. Quit whining. Troy will get you your wheels or give you your money back. He is not a crook or some fly by night builder.
> 
> ...


BS? I don't wanna rain on your parade but if someone fronts $ 2,000.00 and was promised to get whatever he/she buys on an agreed delivery date wouldn't you be pissed? It's not john11f's problem anymore since he's FULLY PAID. The ball is in Troy's court now.

My 2 cents: I think you're weak. Maybe the money means nothing to you. 

Just a question, do you work hard for your money? Or probably your rich-dad just gave it to you?


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

penn_rider said:


> Not all BS
> 
> Just because you have $2400 or more in wheels from Troy does not mean that he lacks in customer service and or problems with getting them built and shipped...
> 
> ...


what does it matter where the buyer is? Troy agreed to ship it to him and get it to him within a time frame. HE DIDN'T. As of now he's stolen the guy's money. The guy is also out of riding his bike with no wheels, and short a large amt of $$. I'm glad you're on his bone and its probably great and all since you keep going back, but you need to open your eyes and see the bush around it isn't what you think. His CS is whack and since hes the only person to contact, its crucial that he communicate with customers.


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## nce (Aug 7, 2009)

john11f said:


> Thank you for your lengthy reply. I'm not BS-ing. This is fact. I wish you knew the whole story.
> 
> I'm sure I'll be satisfied with Troy's wheels and I'm happy that you are. He has emailed me and said I'll be getting them within 5 days. I can't wait.



John11f from what I have read it seems that you have been waiting 5 months for your wheels. Incredible. I hope you do indeed get them in 5 days, you've been more than patient and thank you for putting this information out there.


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## bending guide (Jun 21, 2010)

Others are willing to wait... others are not. Quality is not the issue here but the contract. I should say that his wheels are definitely that good that there are a lot willing to accept a breech of contract in exchange for quality of build he delivers. Lets not bash somebody because they are willing or unwilling to accept compromise in his costumer service. 

Otherwise this is a good tread so that people may be aware and be up to them how much they are willing to pay for his wheels be it time or money.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

bending guide said:


> Others are willing to wait... others are not. Quality is not the issue here but the contract. I should say that his wheels are definitely that good that there are a lot willing to accept a breech of contract in exchange for quality of build he delivers. Lets not bash somebody because they are willing or unwilling to accept compromise in his costumer service.
> 
> Otherwise this is a good tread so that people may be aware and be up to them how much they are willing to pay for his wheels be it time or money.


This is very true. I really hope this one comes to a happy ending for everyone. I get my wheels and I will objectively rate how Troy's work is and I'm sure it is worth the wait. 

Please refrain from veering away from the topic. I'm using this forum as the end to my means. I want my wheels and this thread has been more than helpful to hopefully soon achieve that end.


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## Mashmaniac (Jun 21, 2004)

> I get my wheels and I will objectively rate how Troy's work is and I'm sure it is worth the wait


The BS is thinking that he make wheels of such a level that it's worth the broken delivery promises, no response, and having your money locked up without really knowing if and when he will deliver. 

Troy taught me the value of having my wheels built by a good local wheelbuilder. I have never been happier and will never ever deal with Ligero Wheels again.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

All the naysayers have one problem and one problem only. Troy's lack of communication. Last I checked, that is not a crime. I'm going to assume at least some of the parts going into these wheels were sourced from the same side of the world as the OP. That can cause plenty of unexpected delays. For a small builder, who probably does this in his spare time while holding down a 9-5 job, unexpected delays in delivery of raw materials can be devastating. Do you think he doesn't have plenty of money tied up in his supplies?

As far as I can tell, Troy has some poor communication practices, that seems to be pretty well documented and any buyer should do their research going in. If you aren't comfortable with that, then don't buy from the guy. But I have yet to see anything that makes me say he is a crook or in "breach of contract" (what contract?) or anything less than a highly skilled wheelbuilder.

I know delays can be frustrating and I know lack of communication can get the wheels in your mind going in all different directions, but either you are comfortable with that likelihood in dealing with small shops, or you aren't. OP, lesson learned, you aren't comfortable with that. Take delivery of your wheels and move on.


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## bending guide (Jun 21, 2010)

A simple agreement between multiple parties is a contract. It may be informal such as a gentleman's agreement with nothing but word of honor to bind such contract. One party agrees to pay a certain sum of money in exchange for another party to build him a set of wheels built to agreed specifications and delivered at an agreed time. Until Both parties have delivered what was agreed upon, that contract is breached. Now as I understand the OP is fully paid thus fulfilling his obligation in the contract. The other party has yet to fulfill his obligation.

But as I mentioned. While others may be willing to wait there are some who are not so it becomes important to fulfill what was agreed upon. That my friend, is the contract.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I'm not sure what the issue is since 95 percent of the time I call Troy he answers. I know what I'm getting so if it takes longer than promised I really don't care. At least it's much better than ordering a Sach's!


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

bending guide said:


> A simple agreement between multiple parties is a contract. It may be informal such as a gentleman's agreement with nothing but word of honor to bind such contract. One party agrees to pay a certain sum of money in exchange for another party to build him a set of wheels built to agreed specifications and delivered at an agreed time. Until Both parties have delivered what was agreed upon, that contract is breached. Now as I understand the OP is fully paid thus fulfilling his obligation in the contract. The other party has yet to fulfill his obligation.
> 
> But as I mentioned. While others may be willing to wait there are some who are not so it becomes important to fulfill what was agreed upon. That my friend, is the contract.


Fine it is a contract. But an informal one. Now if memory serves there was some confusion around the delivery address and shipping, etc. and delivery was attempted (I really don't feel like re-reading the entire thread) that was at least part of the delay.

Now I fully agree Troy could save himself alot of hassle if he just did a better job keeping customers up to date with delays and status reports. But a contract still needs to be flexible enough to allow for such disruptions, again, especially when dealing with small builders from any industry. Unforeseen delays for them compound much more rapidly and obviously than they do for larger companies. Again, the customer should be well aware of this and comfortable with that possibility going into the contract. It is their responsibility to do the research and be comfortable with the vendor.


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## nce (Aug 7, 2009)

So did the wheels show up today?


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## tjib13 (Aug 11, 2008)

this thread is lame.
is the answer yes to any of these questions?
was there a volcano in Iceland causing disruptions in airline flights around the world at the time of your shipment going out?
Was there something about your order that went above and beyond and required a longer lead time from a manufacturer, not the wheel builder?
Is it a ***** move to complain on a public forum about such matters?
Does boyschoirbj sound like an insecure ***** for his comments to lanpope whom he obviously doesn't even know?


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

I think this thread should be allowed to die it's undignified death and let those concerned hash it out at this point. 

I do believe all points have been made a thousand times over.... Just hope everyone is happy in the end.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

i cant believe people are willing to wait 5 months for a wheelbuild, that is absurd.

i have a friend who builds all my wheels - 'take however long you want' as this person holds a full time job and works long hours... and my wheels take a week tops, including gluing tyres.


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## boyschoirbj (Nov 25, 2008)

tjib13 said:


> this thread is lame.
> is the answer yes to any of these questions?
> was there a volcano in Iceland causing disruptions in airline flights around the world at the time of your shipment going out?
> Was there something about your order that went above and beyond and required a longer lead time from a manufacturer, not the wheel builder?
> ...


tjib13, how can you say this thread is lame? If you think it is then just don't waste your time striking your keyboard. 

I don't know lanpope at all but i know john11f pretty well. He's been working his butt off to get to a point where he can buy the things he wants. In this case, a promised has been delayed for about 5 months now, long distance phone calls have not been answered and emails have not been replied. Plus, I repeat, he is FULLY PAID and the goods hasn't been delivered yet. Still lame, you think?


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

If I'm paying 2 grand up front and waiting 5 months, they better be delivered by a hot, large breasted babe wearing a bikini and knee pads.
Other wise, that's B.S!


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## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

I don't know about all of you but when I ordered a custom frame I put a large deposit on it and waited a long time for it to be built. It was even delayed and was delivered way after the quoted date. How are wheel any different. 

These wheel were ordered with the OP knowing the Ligero is slow with communication. How can you complain about something that you knew going into the transaction. I have read the reviews about his wheel and customer service and hope to order a set of wheels in the near future. But I am going into it knowing that he is about building top quality wheel.

Its just like everything else in life. You have to go in with a reasonable expectation of what you are going to get and learn to accept it when thing don't go according to your plans. I don't know if I'm just different but I would never post a tread like this. It makes both parties look bad, calling some one out on an online forum only contributes to an already burning fire with unwanted third part opinions.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

SEK82089 said:


> I don't know about all of you but when I ordered a custom frame I put a large deposit on it and waited a long time for it to be built. It was even delayed and was delivered way after the quoted date. How are wheel any different.
> 
> These wheel were ordered with the OP knowing the Ligero is slow with communication. How can you complain about something that you knew going into the transaction. I have read the reviews about his wheel and customer service and hope to order a set of wheels in the near future. But I am going into it knowing that he is about building top quality wheel.
> 
> Its just like everything else in life. You have to go in with a reasonable expectation of what you are going to get and learn to accept it when thing don't go according to your plans. I don't know if I'm just different but I would never post a tread like this. It makes both parties look bad, calling some one out on an online forum only contributes to an already burning fire with unwanted third part opinions.


I don't care how busy you are--if you run an internet-based biz you better answer your emails and phone queries in a timely fashion. There is no excuse to not answer an email within a 24 hour period.


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## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

Yes I get that everyone wants fast communication but why? Is it just for piece of mind that the seller, who ever it may be, has split with you money to Mexico. 

Its not like there was no communication between the two, informing of delays and or shipping changes. It seems like there was a lot of miscommunication between the two and the problems didn't need to be aired publicly like it has been.

Its just the way I see it. You may think differently but I believe that no news is good news.


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## bending guide (Jun 21, 2010)

So, are we saying its okay to waste one's time? I wonder if how many people would purchase certain products if the seller declares upfront that he cannot commit as to when it can be delivered? 

I happen to be thankful for this thread. It made me aware that while his wheels are superb I may not be willing to wait that long. Obviously the OP isn't aware it would take such a long time did he? Or else he wouldn't have started this thread being all that confident and willing to wait for his wheels. I don't think OP wouldn't have gone thru with the purchase had he known otherwise.

To others, 2 grand + 5 months and counting is just nothing.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

T K said:


> If I'm paying 2 grand up front and waiting 5 months, they better be delivered by a hot, large breasted babe wearing a bikini and knee pads.
> Other wise, that's B.S!


+1 on the knee pads


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## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

bending guide said:


> So, are we saying its okay to waste one's time? I wonder if how many people would purchase certain products if the seller declares upfront that he cannot commit as to when it can be delivered?
> 
> I happen to be thankful for this thread. It made me aware that while his wheels are superb I may not be willing to wait that long. Obviously the OP isn't aware it would take such a long time did he? Or else he wouldn't have started this thread being all that confident and willing to wait for his wheels. I don't think OP wouldn't have gone thru with the purchase had he known otherwise.
> 
> To others, 2 grand + 5 months and counting is just nothing.


I'm not say that its ok, but with all things custom built there needs to be an expected wait time and understanding when there are delays. 

The OP claims to have searched the forum before ordering but my quick search show threads just like this one.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/search.php?searchid=3036118

It was easy enough to find negative threads about his business practice and just a easy to find positive ones about his wheels. In most cases the wait ends up being worth it. 

Don't get me wrong if this was a large company turning out machine built carbon copies, I could see people getting so up in arms. But this is one man, as far as I know, turning out highly custom wheel with parts that you can't just pick up a you LBS. 

Once again this is just the way I see it. If I'm ordering something custom it better be perfect no mater how long it takes.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

bending guide said:


> So, are we saying its okay to waste one's time? I wonder if how many people would purchase certain products if the seller declares upfront that he cannot commit as to when it can be delivered?
> 
> I happen to be thankful for this thread. It made me aware that while his wheels are superb I may not be willing to wait that long. Obviously the OP isn't aware it would take such a long time did he? Or else he wouldn't have started this thread being all that confident and willing to wait for his wheels. I don't think OP wouldn't have gone thru with the purchase had he known otherwise.
> 
> To others, 2 grand + 5 months and counting is just nothing.


I don't think anyone is questioning that his wheels are good--just that his communication skills could use some improvement. I mean come on...how hard would it be to spend a hour or so a night going through your emails and answering your customers questions? All he'd have had to say was that they were still being worked on and expected to be delivered on whatever date. Not getting a response and having a non-working phone number don't exactly make someone want to entrust thousands of dollars up front with him.


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## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

Wines of WA said:


> I don't know Troy personally, but I want to offer an observation based on a few conversations with him over the course of a few months. Juan is correct, but I'll put a more precise point on it:
> 
> Troy appears to be an obsessive, perfectionist designer and engineer. He is not a marketing or sales guy.
> 
> ...


This sums up the way I feel about this tread well. I read this doing my own research for my custom wheels. Reading this what would you think about ordering from him. Thats all I'm really trying to say is that its not ok but should be expected by anyone ordering.

Heres the like to the thread I quoted: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=205679&highlight=ligero


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## jb636 (Nov 3, 2005)

This is like missing the last page of a book and not knowing who shot who. John11f - did you ever get your wheels??


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

SOMEONE is getting wheels from Troy. There are lots of recent photos of builds on his Flick'r page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ligerowheels


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## patchito (Jun 30, 2005)

SEK82089 said:


> This sums up the way I feel about this tread well. I read this doing my own research for my custom wheels. Reading this what would you think about ordering from him. Thats all I'm really trying to say is that its not ok but should be expected by anyone ordering.
> 
> Heres the like to the thread I quoted: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=205679&highlight=ligero


Such is the experience with online forums. There could be 99 very happy customers, but there's that 1% - whether they have a legitimate gripe or just can never be happy - who decide to bash the guy because anonymity gives them the courage to vent their spleen. You usually don't hear from the satisfied customers, but you do from those with an axe to grind....and I'm not directing this necessarily at the OP, but at the pilers-on.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

The wheels aren't here yet. I emailed Troy last week or 2 weeks ago to ask which cargo service he used and when he shipped the wheels but again, no reply.


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

john11f said:


> The wheels aren't here yet. I emailed Troy last week or 2 weeks ago to ask which cargo service he used and when he shipped the wheels but again, no reply.


didn't read the whole thread. WHen did you order for wheels? When did you pay for them? Anything out of the ordinary happen in between?

Just wondering if this guy's wheels are that amazing that they're worth the hassle, stress, and time.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

John has just responded that he has not gotten the wheels yet.

ugh.....


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> +1 on the knee pads


+2 on that

There are a lot of really good wheel builders out there, I would never do business with the guy


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## bending guide (Jun 21, 2010)

Wondering how to resolve situations like this other than just wait...wait...wait and more wait. I'm sure there are plenty of very happy clients out there but what about this particular customer? It doesn't seem fair that just because you make 99% of your customers happy it makes it okay to err on one.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

bending guide said:


> Wondering how to resolve situations like this other than just wait...wait...wait and more wait. I'm sure there are plenty of very happy clients out there but what about this particular customer? It doesn't seem fair that just because you make 99% of your customers happy it makes it okay to err on one.


It is really too bad isn't it.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

bending guide said:


> Wondering how to resolve situations like this other than just wait...wait...wait and more wait. I'm sure there are plenty of very happy clients out there but what about this particular customer? It doesn't seem fair that just because you make 99% of your customers happy it makes it okay to err on one.


Or at least don't BS them about when the wheels will be done and then not communicate with them when they are delayed. I'm sure the OP would have been much happier if the builder would have taken 5 minutes out of his day to call or email and explain the delay.


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## Dutch77 (Jan 3, 2009)

Troy should really do some damage control here. Can't run a business that depends on CS and word of mouth as much as a this type of business does and leave threads like these run amok...


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

does Troy already have your money? (whoever he still owes wheels to) paypal disputes within 45 days


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## jb636 (Nov 3, 2005)

The amazing thing is that with this much conversation going on about this situation, you would think that Troy / Ligero would work hard to ensure to communicate with prompt follow up with John11F.

amazing...


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

My Ligero wheels, 2 1/2 years later are still kick ass!


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

El Caballito said:


> My Ligero wheels, 2 1/2 years later are still kick ass!


It took 2 1/2 years to get yours??? I thought this guy had it bad...

JK, I dont care how good they are I wouldn't pay up front for something that is taking months and months
I guess I am the instant gratification type.


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## bending guide (Jun 21, 2010)

If I have to wait that long for a wheel build they better be great for more than just 2.5 years. Had ultegra hubs laced to mavic rims for 5 years then sold them in still great condition.

Now if troy would only say up front to his clients that He can't really say when he can deliver there should be no complaints. But then I doubt if he would get as much orders would he?


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

This has always been my one issue with Troy as well. His wheels are great but communication and delivery times are not. I've talked to Troy several times on the phone and he's really a super nice guy and very well meaning but again, his emails aren't timely and his delivery times are usually very optimistic. 
I ordered a pair of wheels from him once and although I didn't wait near as long as the op, they did take longer than expected. Then, when they came, they were missing the skewers. 
More recently, earlier this year I emailed back and forth with him about a potential build. I was awaiting one last email back from him with final details and then was going to sign off on the build...The return email never came. 
After going several months with more than one pair of another well known retailer's wheels, I again decided to contact Troy because I was fed up with the other retailer's wheels and knew Troy's would be great. I called him on the phone and talked for probably half and hour with him and we mulled over several builds. He then told me that he would email me some photos(I was wanting a specific color combo) the following day and that we could then finalize the build. I thought OK, I'll give him another chance here....The email did come but it was over a week and a half later and after I had already ordered from someone else who was more timely. 
To sum it all up, I still think Troy builds some of the very best wheels you can get your hands on but he's in over his head imo. He's far too nice of a guy, spends too much time on the phone when he answers, and is too optimistic on turn around. I really hope that not only this situation gets sorted out, but also that Troy figures out a way to improve customer service as well because like I said, he's really a nice guy.


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

Sebastionmerckx said:


> This has always been my one issue with Troy as well. His wheels are great but communication and delivery times are not. I've talked to Troy several times on the phone and he's really a super nice guy and very well meaning but again, his emails aren't timely and his delivery times are usually very optimistic.
> I ordered a pair of wheels from him once and although I didn't wait near as long as the op, they did take longer than expected. Then, when they came, they were missing the skewers.
> More recently, earlier this year I emailed back and forth with him about a potential build. I was awaiting one last email back from him with final details and then was going to sign off on the build...The return email never came.
> After going several months with more than one pair of another well known retailer's wheels, I again decided to contact Troy because I was fed up with the other retailer's wheels and knew Troy's would be great. I called him on the phone and talked for probably half and hour with him and we mulled over several builds. He then told me that he would email me some photos(I was wanting a specific color combo) the following day and that we could then finalize the build. I thought OK, I'll give him another chance here....The email did come but it was over a week and a half later and after I had already ordered from someone else who was more timely.
> To sum it all up, I still think Troy builds some of the very best wheels you can get your hands on but he's in over his head imo. He's far too nice of a guy, spends too much time on the phone when he answers, and is too optimistic on turn around. I really hope that not only this situation gets sorted out, but also that Troy figures out a way to improve customer service as well because like I said, he's really a nice guy.


It sounds like it would serve him well to have an office manager. Being a small business owner, (I make high-end audio cables click my avatar, which is actually a bit analogous to wheelbuilding) I am empathetic to his position. He has to do _everything_ when really he should be doing what he does best, building wheels, not shuffling papers etc. But it is a very hard step as you have to pay someone a salary and if business is up and down that can be a big issue. It seems though that if he could get his customer service issues worked out that his company would only be more successful. Again it is a hard position to be in BUT there is really is no excuse for the lack of communication with someone who has already paid you and the inability to deliver in a timely manner said goods.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

JimT said:


> It took 2 1/2 years to get yours??? I thought this guy had it bad...
> 
> JK, I dont care how good they are I wouldn't pay up front for something that is taking months and months
> I guess I am the instant gratification type.


No, I think El Cabalito is saying that his Ligero wheels are still great after 2-1/2 years of riding them.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

<img src=https://teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/image/customer_service_desk_sleeping_lg_nwm.gif>


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

*Did you get your wheels yet?*

or an email or phone call? Just wondering since he knows about this thread.....
Good luck...


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

*Wheels*

Finally, I got my wheelset! Haven't ridden it but looks topnotch. 

May I request mods to lock this thread. Troy is legit, he just does things differently.


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

john11f said:


> Finally, I got my wheelset! Haven't ridden it but looks topnotch.
> 
> May I request mods to lock this thread. Troy is legit, he just does things differently.


Wonderful that you were able to finally get them...I know it was really annoying waiting so long, but I think you'll really love the wheels....Nobody's ever questioned how good his work is :thumbsup:


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

so since the day you placed the order and paid for the wheels, how long has it been since you received them?


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

The Ligero website is now a placeholder web page promising "Big Changes Are Coming". Hopefully Troy is working on changes to solve his customer service and delivery problems. 

Anyway, John, enjoy your wheels. I'm sure you will if they're half as good as mine.


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

I suspect Troy has taken steps to improve the customer service snags that lead to the troubles discussed in this thread. All I can say is good luck. My Ligero wheels are a pleasure to ride. Hopefully, the new arrangements will allow Troy a chance to do what he does best, build wheels.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Pegorider said:


> Hopefully, the new arrangements will allow Troy a chance to do what he does best, build wheels.


It will. He's got great things planned.

-Eric


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Pegorider said:


> I suspect Troy has taken steps to improve the customer service snags that lead to the troubles discussed in this thread. All I can say is good luck. My Ligero wheels are a pleasure to ride. Hopefully, the new arrangements will allow Troy a chance to do what he does best, build wheels.


The amount of rationalization for such shoddy customer service amazes me. Troy didn't even bother to respond to this thread and still people sing his praises. Sorry...but there are plenty of good wheelbuilders out there that can actually communicate with their customers. No way would I ever use this guy.


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## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Troy didn't even bother to respond to this thread and still people sing his praises.


He did reply. Post 6 and 8.


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## Uncle Jam's Army (Aug 1, 2006)

I seriously considered Troy to build up some Edge 1.45 wheels with his hubs. Instead, I went with Jeremy of Alchemy Bicycle Works and had him build me wheels with his hubs. Jeremy and his wife Sarah let me know when I could expect the wheels, followed up and gave me a heads up that the wheels would be 2 weeks late because they were waiting on the rims. I received the wheels on time (with the revised two week delay), and Sarah emailed me to make sure I received the wheels and that I was happy with them. The wheels are perfect, his hubs are incredible, and Jeremy and Sarah are just simply very nice, decent people. 

I'll only use Jeremy to build up wheels from now on, and on his hubs. And no, I have no connection with Jeremy, other than as a happy customer.

I write all of this because it is threads like this that make me very happy that I decided to go with Jeremy. I have no doubt that Troy's wheels are fantastic. But there is simply no room for this type of customer service. There are too many good builders who can build a fantastic set of wheels and take care of their customers' concerns/questions.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

Wines of WA said:


> No, I think El Cabalito is saying that his Ligero wheels are still great after 2-1/2 years of riding them.


that's exactly what I said...


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## dmavrod (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm happy the wheels showed up. I have an outstanding order since April. No wheels yet. Same problems as John. I understand what the term custom means in the bicycle world, however no response or I'm shipping @ the end of the week type of responses get old. I'd settle for any communication, as it is now I suspect two large is down the drain. Non answers and no more website suggest no more business. Hopefully Troy will be at interbike this year (which is where I met him last year) and he can explain where the wheels are.


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## bending guide (Jun 21, 2010)

good now you can relax and enjoy the wheels. I believe nobody doubts his legitimacy. It is with communication and delivery time that he has to really improve on. This fuss would've been prevented if troy communicated well with his clients. He builds great wheels and could easily expand his market if improves on his weaknesses.


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## nce (Aug 7, 2009)

skyliner1004 said:


> so since the day you placed the order and paid for the wheels, how long has it been since you received them?


I'd like to know this information too. In june when the OP started the thread he said that it had already been more than four months and it looks like he finally got them towards the end of August. So it looks like approximately 6 months or so from order to receipt.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

man... i hope troy gets it together because he makes such quality wheels.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

*Help. Again.*

Anyone can help me Convert a Ligero Campy hub to a SRAM? Obviously there was lack of communication again. I don't want to send the wheels back and wait another 5 months.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

wow 

that gets more and more incredible


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

I think you use a ball-peen hammer.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

john11f said:


> Anyone can help me Convert a Ligero Campy hub to a SRAM? Obviously there was lack of communication again. I don't want to send the wheels back and wait another 5 months.


Jesus...the guy can't even put on the right hub and when someone gets the wrong hubs they are too scared to send them back because it will take too long to remedy? Class act this guy is...I don't care how good his wheels are. I'd be pissed.


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## jb636 (Nov 3, 2005)

Troy
Suggest you show some class and common business sense and send the guy a replacement wheel with the right hub free of charge.

The true cost of a replacement wheel would be a cheap investment into customer service!
DO THE RIGHT THING...


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## nce (Aug 7, 2009)

john11f said:


> Anyone can help me Convert a Ligero Campy hub to a SRAM? Obviously there was lack of communication again. I don't want to send the wheels back and wait another 5 months.



It is a 2 minute job that requires 2 hex wrenches(5mm ?) insert the hex wrenches where the quick release skewer goes and undo. The freehub should then slide off easily. Slide the Shimano\SRAM freehub on whilst holding the pawls down, retighten with Hex wrenches and your done. I hope that makes sense, I am not very good at explaining things.

I just can't believe how long you've waited and that when you finally get your wheels they have the wrong freehub. Please let us know how they are once you finally get to ride them.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

But wait,, "Big Changes are Coming"


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## Plum (Mar 27, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Jesus...the guy can't even put on the right hub and when someone gets the wrong hubs they are too scared to send them back because it will take too long to remedy? Class act this guy is...I don't care how good his wheels are. I'd be pissed.


Might be that the OP actually changed gruppos after receiving the wheels, so the original set was correct, it's not clear..


Plum


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

nce said:


> It is a 2 minute job that requires 2 hex wrenches(5mm ?) insert the hex wrenches where the quick release skewer goes and undo. The freehub should then slide off easily. Slide the Shimano\SRAM freehub on whilst holding the pawls down, retighten with Hex wrenches and your done. I hope that makes sense, I am not very good at explaining things.
> 
> I just can't believe how long you've waited and that when you finally get your wheels they have the wrong freehub. Please let us know how they are once you finally get to ride them.


That is pretty close but since he will be going from Campy to SRAM he will need to change the non drive side and cap for a different one. I am emailing him instructions on how to do it. 




jb636 said:


> Troy
> Suggest you show some class and common business sense and send the guy a replacement wheel with the right hub free of charge.
> 
> The true cost of a replacement wheel would be a cheap investment into customer service!
> DO THE RIGHT THING...


I have already sent him a email early this morning asking him where to send the freehub body because I have 2 address for him. I should also mention that I asked him twice what type of freehub he wanted in emails and he answered "black" each time. I asked him on the phone and I guess I mis understood him because I thought he said he needed Campy. He has also asked me to pay his import taxes because he says that I listed the value to high. I listed the value at $1700, which is what I told him in our emails that I would list them at. 



penn_rider said:


> But wait,, "Big Changes are Coming"


Seeing that you know what some of the changes are I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or trying to help out. 

For all who care the changes that are coming is, I will not be selling wheels anymore. I will be building up batches of wheels and there will be a exclusive shop selling them. You will not deal with me at all for any wheel purchase. I will not be involved in the customer service or any aspect of the business except physically building the wheels. 

Some of the other big changes are new product related. There are a few people that know what I am working on and they are free to talk about it but since some seem to think I use this forum as a way to spam I will not be talking about what they are.


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## john11f (Mar 19, 2009)

I checked my gmail thread of my communication with Troy and yes he did ask me what color & type of freehub I want and I only indicated black - DOES THAT MEAN YOU WILL ASSUME I NEED CAMPY? REALLY, THIS IS ALSO THE REASON WHY COMMUNICATION IS IMPORTANT.

We never spoke over the phone - ALTHOUGH I'VE SPENT COUNTLESS OVERSEAS CALLS TO TRY AND CONTACT HIM TO NO SUCCESS. HE CLAIMS HE HEARS ME BUT I CAN'T HEAR HIM ON THE OTHER END.

I DID ASK TO LOWER THE VALUE TO SAVE ON DUTIES UP TO $1,000 AND HE AGREED. OTHERWISE, I DON"T HAVE ANY QUALMS ABOUT IT IF HE CHOOSE TO DECLARE IT AT WHATEVER VALUE WE AGREED ON.

I ALSO PAID FOR CUSTOM DECALS BUT GOT FACTORY DECALS.


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## cww180 (Aug 31, 2008)

I emailed Troy and he replied right away and followed it up by an hour conversation. I hope everything works out for both sides.


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## Rajdog (Dec 9, 2009)

*Why ???*

Why don't all you people giving this guy such a ration of crap GET A LIFE ???

Obviously none of you have ANYTHING better to do than "Jump on this bandwagon" and put your two cents in.....

Unbelivable.

Here's a "Tip" for all of you..... Place your butt on your saddle and GO RIDE !!!

Now try and have a nice day.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

john11f said:


> I checked my gmail thread of my communication with Troy and yes he did ask me what color & type of freehub I want and I only indicated black - DOES THAT MEAN YOU WILL ASSUME I NEED CAMPY? REALLY, THIS IS ALSO THE REASON WHY COMMUNICATION IS IMPORTANT.
> 
> We never spoke over the phone - ALTHOUGH I'VE SPENT COUNTLESS OVERSEAS CALLS TO TRY AND CONTACT HIM TO NO SUCCESS. HE CLAIMS HE HEARS ME BUT I CAN'T HEAR HIM ON THE OTHER END.
> 
> ...


I don't have a dog in this fight, but frankly, everybody ought to back down. Assumptions are being thrown out before the facts are available. It's not fair on anyone. I'm not defending anyone or criticizing anyone, except that this thread is ugly any way you look at it. 

I could snipe at any statement made by anybody in the past twenty or thirty posts on this thread. None of us is helping the situation for anyone. Ligero may have screwed up. I don't know. All of us have screwed up at various times. All of us have made mistakes as buyers, too. Other people who also have no dog in this fight are hurting Ligero's livelihood, and not helping anybody out. In this economy, do you want anyone doing that to you? Let's chill and let the people who DO have a dog involved sort it out. If ever a thread deserved to be locked, this is it.


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## tomato (May 16, 2002)

More to the point, where are the MODS and why hasn't this thread been locked?


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

tomato said:


> More to the point, where are the MODS and why hasn't this thread been locked?


Why should it be locked? I haven't seen anything said that was untrue.


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## nce (Aug 7, 2009)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Why should it be locked? I haven't seen anything said that was untrue.


+1
It is important that information gets shared and that this thread should take its natural course and die out once the situation is resolved. 

There are thousands of threads giving glowing reviews of products after only 5 minutes of use that are far more useless and pointless than this. From what I have read no one has attacked or doubts the wheelbuilders skills and the wheelbuilder himself recognizes that his customer service needed improvement and has taken the necessary steps to do so.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Nothing more can be added that hasn't already been said.


-Eric


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## Chop (Jun 3, 2006)

*Lock it...*



ergott said:


> Nothing more can be added that hasn't already been said.
> 
> 
> -Eric


Not only that, but this thread's future utility is minimal at best since Troy has already said that he won't be selling wheels direct to consumers any longer - you'll have to go through a shop. SO... at this point the only "value" this thread has lies in john11f's Campy body, BUT since Troy is changing his business model any further mental masturbation on that topic is moot.

Mods - please lock this.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

The main point Custom Builders use to push their product is the high quality of their service and personal treatment of the *Custom*er as opossed to the impersonal mass production wheels.

I think the real "point" of this thread is that shows how going to a Custom Builder could be a problem.

I am sorry for Ligero, seems like a good builder with quality products.

But this kind of problems are exactly inherent to this kind of artisanal custom builders. The lack of a well established customer service and the backing of a distribution chain to handle replacements/repairs overseas etc.

It is not a problem of wheel builders exclusively though. I have seen the same kind of problems with custom tailors, or independent software developers for example.


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## nce (Aug 7, 2009)

ergott said:


> Nothing more can be added that hasn't already been said.
> 
> 
> -Eric



What about a ride report and how they hold up with some miles on them. That seems to be important.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

nce said:


> What about a ride report and how they hold up with some miles on them. That seems to be important.


True, but I think that information would be better served in a separate thread.

Eric


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> The main point Custom Builders use to push their product is the high quality of their service and personal treatment of the *Custom*er as opossed to the impersonal mass production wheels.
> 
> I think the real "point" of this thread is that shows how going to a Custom Builder could be a problem.
> 
> ...


For every "problem" artisan, I could point to at least two big production houses with issues. This place is loaded with people complaining about weak flanges (bontrager), broken spokes (easton), high maintenance hubs (mavic), cracked rims (zipp), etc. Sorry, that was more than two and I know I left some out.

We choose to see what we want to see.

Eric


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

ergott said:


> For every "problem" artisan, I could point to at least two big production houses with issues. This place is loaded with people complaining about weak flanges (bontrager), broken spokes (easton), high maintenance hubs (mavic), cracked rims (zipp), etc. Sorry, that was more than two and I know I left some out.
> 
> We choose to see what we want to see.
> 
> Eric


And there are forums for the custom framebuilders and such where they get to air their issues with impossible customers too. There are two sides to every story. Whatever happened, Ligero has taken the high road and not smeared his customers. Some of them should remember that. 

Moderators, please.


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## gibson00 (Aug 7, 2006)

11.4 said:


> ..... Whatever happened, Ligero has taken the high road and not smeared his customers. Some of them should remember that.
> 
> Moderators, please.


Oh Bullsh*t. He took half a year to build a wheelset that should have taken a couple of weeks. And he's done it to more than one person.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

gibson00 said:


> Oh Bullsh*t. He took half a year to build a wheelset that should have taken a couple of weeks. And he's done it to more than one person.


Exactly...and to his credit it seems he's decided he isn't strong on customer service so he's getting someone else to deal with that. Not sure I'd want to be that person trying to explain to his customers why the wheels still aren't done though.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

gibson00 said:


> Oh Bullsh*t. He took half a year to build a wheelset that should have taken a couple of weeks. And he's done it to more than one person.


I can build a wheelset in max 2 hours... just sayin'


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## Mike Prince (Jan 30, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> I can build a wheelset in max 2 hours... just sayin'


But only after you get all of the parts and have 2 hours free to do it.


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## Mashmaniac (Jun 21, 2004)

> And there are forums for the custom framebuilders and such where they get to air their issues with impossible customers too. There are two sides to every story. Whatever happened, Ligero has taken the high road and not smeared his customers. Some of them should remember that



Taken the high road? He's gives a bad name to legit custom wheel builders, I had the same experience 4 years ago dealing with him and swore I'd never use him again. I use a great local custom wheel builder. Two day wheel build and handles service in a day. 


Ligero should not take people's money up front. Never ever pay this guy in advance would be my advice based on my experience.


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## phototravel (Aug 18, 2006)

My 2 cents: I have had Troy at Ligero build 2 sets of wheels for me. I have posted high praise for him as well. The wheels have been great overall, with some issues (will go over that in a moment) and I believe Troy is simply a guy trying to make a living doing what he loves and does well. The Edge 1.45 clinchers (photos here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2607128#post2607128) he built for me are super light - 1210 grams - but the rear Extralite SR hub has had a persistent issue of loosening - probably fixable with a drop of Loctite. Also, the non-drive side spokes tend to loosen, but as long as I keep an eye on them, no problem. 
The other set of wheels is an Edge 1.38 tubular (pics: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=164149). 965 grams...super light, but had an issue with the front rim pulsing. Sent it back and Troy rebuilt it quickly. Good service! More recently, the rear rim developed a bulge. I sent the wheels to Troy on October 5th of this year for warranty rim replacement (hadn't been able to ride them since last July due to the bulge). Troy told me it would take a few weeks as Edge was backed up. On Nov. 3, I started trying to contact him on a regular basis via email and text, asking what the status was...on Nov. 15, twelve days later, I finally heard from him, saying that the wheels would be in my hands the following week. They did not show up. I tried contacting him again on the Nov. 19th, and have tried contacting him ever since (for the last 12 days) on a regular basis via text, phone, and email, and still have not heard from him. I don't know what to do now. I'm hoping that some tragedy did not befall him. I really hate to say anything bad, but I'm getting very frustrated, so I too am making an appeal to Troy of Ligero....please contact me - all I need to know is when, if ever, I will get my wheels back. From my own personal experience, this level of service is not characteristic of Ligero, and I'm frustrated, confused, and just wanna ride my damn wheels!


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## Uncle Jam's Army (Aug 1, 2006)

Sorry to hear of your troubles phototravel. Just as an FYI, I had a second rim pulsing issue with my Edge 1.45 clinchers and Zen Cyclery gave me an RA number, then Edge picked up the wheels from my house (with a UPS call tag) to replace with tubulars. Today Edge told me my wheels are being built and will ship today--a two-week turnaround. So, Edge should have finished your rims long ago....assuming they received them from Troy.


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## jb636 (Nov 3, 2005)

*customer service*

here it goes again!


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

jb636 said:


> here it goes again!


And yet people keep ordering wheels from the dude.


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## phototravel (Aug 18, 2006)

Follow up: Troy finally contacted me to tell me that he was sick last week and has a new job where part of the training has him studying non-stop. It's odd that he took the 30 seconds to email me to let me know that, but did not mention the status of my wheels at all or acknowledge that it is taking a long time. However, at least we now know that he is alive and well, which I honestly was beginning to wonder about. He said he would respond to any response to that email on Friday night or Saturday, so hopefully, I will finally know the status of my disappearing wheels then. My assumption is that they were hired by the Russian KGB to do stealth work that a motorcycle would be too loud to do, and Troy was sworn to secrecy about the whole shady deal. ;-)


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)




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## phototravel (Aug 18, 2006)

*Resolution - finally*



phototravel said:


> My 2 cents: I have had Troy at Ligero build 2 sets of wheels for me. I have posted high praise for him as well. The wheels have been great overall, with some issues (will go over that in a moment) and I believe Troy is simply a guy trying to make a living doing what he loves and does well. The Edge 1.45 clinchers (photos here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2607128#post2607128) he built for me are super light - 1210 grams - but the rear Extralite SR hub has had a persistent issue of loosening - probably fixable with a drop of Loctite. Also, the non-drive side spokes tend to loosen, but as long as I keep an eye on them, no problem.
> The other set of wheels is an Edge 1.38 tubular (pics: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=164149). 965 grams...super light, but had an issue with the front rim pulsing. Sent it back and Troy rebuilt it quickly. Good service! More recently, the rear rim developed a bulge. I sent the wheels to Troy on October 5th of this year for warranty rim replacement (hadn't been able to ride them since last July due to the bulge). Troy told me it would take a few weeks as Edge was backed up. On Nov. 3, I started trying to contact him on a regular basis via email and text, asking what the status was...on Nov. 15, twelve days later, I finally heard from him, saying that the wheels would be in my hands the following week. They did not show up. I tried contacting him again on the Nov. 19th, and have tried contacting him ever since (for the last 12 days) on a regular basis via text, phone, and email, and still have not heard from him. I don't know what to do now. I'm hoping that some tragedy did not befall him. I really hate to say anything bad, but I'm getting very frustrated, so I too am making an appeal to Troy of Ligero....please contact me - all I need to know is when, if ever, I will get my wheels back. From my own personal experience, this level of service is not characteristic of Ligero, and I'm frustrated, confused, and just wanna ride my damn wheels!


So after 2 months of trying and being told on the phone and in an email once that the wheels would be repaired and would be on their way, then waiting 6 more weeks, I FINALLY received my wheels - only problem was that the box I sent the wheels in looked like it had never been opened and the wheels were NOT repaired as promised - looked like they hadn't even been looked at. After a strongly worded email, text, and voicemail, I received the refund I requested promptly. 
Finals impressions: Troy makes great wheels at a good price. His interactions with me were pleasant and he engaged in somewhat slow, but good customer service until this incident. He seems to dislike dealing with the customer service aspect of wheelbuilding, especially answering the phone (he told me as much at one point, when he said he was "tired of" that aspect of it all). He has recently started a new full time job, with the summers off. If you expect instant responses to questions, he's not your guy. If you're ok with spotty customer service (sometimes he's on and he offers to take care of issues promptly and seems like he really values the customer, and sometimes you don't hear from him for a month), then go for it. I spent about $3400 with him as my wheelbuilder for two pairs, and to receive my wheels back unrepaired/untouched after 6 weeks of trying to get ahold of him just to let me know the status of the repair obviously leaves a sour taste in my mouth. The refund for the unrepaired wheels, which I am sending back once the check clears, makes things financially right, but I won't be doing business with him again. Everything I've written above and in my other post is an accurate representation of the facts, not bashing, being purposefully mean, or being overly generous - just the facts.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

We've got a handful of other builders who do a good job and post almost daily. No one could possibly do such a drastically better job that it would be worth dealing with poor customer service (doesnt ligero rebadge other peoples components anyway?).


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

phototravel said:


> He seems to dislike dealing with the customer service aspect of wheelbuilding, especially answering the phone (he told me as much at one point, when he said he was "tired of" that aspect of it all).


I don't know Troy that well, but it isn't customer service... because he actually does that fine until he gets overwhelmed. It's time management and over-scheduling... and maybe a few other things. 

I don't even list my phone # because it was obvious from the beginning that I didn't want to be answering the phone all day. Email is much less annoying, and allows me to have a flexible schedule. It's still time consuming, though... 

I hope Troy likes his new job and finds success and happiness there. And if he finds a way to get back in the wheel business, that could work too.


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

So clearly some people have had some problems with Troy, but my experience was just the opposite of the horror stories described in this thread. I bought some wheels last Spring, model 1 with the new hubs. Forty miles into the first ride, I heard a clicking sound from the rear wheel. I brought the wheel to Fairwheel who disassembled the hub and found the problem. The hub manufacturer had run short of a hub component and tried a substitute part that wasn't up to snuff. Troy got the correct part and overnight shipped it to Tucson. I had my wheel back in a couple of days. It has been trouble free since then. 
I'm sorry to hear of others bad experiences, but I was lucky to get good service. Since then, I've enjoyed a great riding set of wheels.


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