# Motobecane Immortal Team review



## elohttub

Hello everyone. This is my first post in this forum but wanted to place a review of a bike I have been testing for some time this year. I currently work for Mountain Biking Magazine and we had a sister publication Roadie International which had to be shelved this year due to a few different reasons. As this bike was received, we went out of publication (RI) and therefore had a bike for review with no place to print it. Hence the post here in the forum boards. I am just posting this to provide some education on a great bike. This bike was reviewed over the course of 8 months and I used it to train for downhill mountain bike racing.

*Price: *
Retail price is right around $3,000

*Bike Setup:*
FSA K-Force Carbon Crankset, Cane Creek 200SL Brakeset, Shimano Dura-Ace Front and Rear Derailleurs High Modulus Carbon Fiber Monocoque frameset, AeroCarbon SL fork with Carbon Steerer (345g) American Classic Sprint 350 wheelset (1350g), FSA K-Force Carbon bar, FSA OS140 stem and K-Force Light carbon seatpost. Total Weight: 15.7 pounds.
*Summary:*
They don’t have a winning rider from a foreign country, but Motobecane can put out a really Tour-worthy bike. The Immortal Team is one seriously high-end bike for a paltry cost compared to any other bike with a similar build. As far as spec goes, the list is premium, utilizing Shimano’s Dura-Ace and FSA’s K-Force super light carbon components. The Cane Creek brakes are competition proven stoppers and the Sprint 350 wheelset by American Classic is the top of the line clincher set they make. Michelin provides the traction with their Pro Race tires, which grip the road like exteremely well. 
At first glance, the high modulus carbon fiber frameset is sexy. The smooth curves in the bottom bracket, headset and seatmast joints are not only good looking but also incredibly strong. The molded carbon fiber frame provides more stiffness than a traditional aluminum frame and offers superior lateral rigidity to help you hold your lines on even the steepest descents. The majority of the beef in the frame is right down at the bottom bracket. This continues out through the chainstays and seat stays providing the muscle to stand up and mash on the pedals up the hills you couldn’t make before. This frame is solid! Weigh it on a scale and you wouldn’t believe that something so light would be able to hold up under pressure but after just over 3,000 miles in the saddle, this bike is still as strong and stiff as the day it was pulled out of the box. The carbon fork and steertube have no stress cracks from potholes I encountered and dampen even the roughest roads. Hand fatigue is greatly reduced with the carbon barset and stem. I actually thought I would see some stress marks down in the bottom bracket area after that many miles but I was proven wrong. Even at the most ass-puckering speeds going down some of the steepest roads which bikes should not be allowed on, this bike handled the corners and descents with aplomb. On full tilt, the bike holds its line so well that you felt as if it were on rails. The American Classic wheels are just so stiff that you get no rotational twist at any angle. One particular screaming descent in the Los Angeles area is Decker Canyon Road which I tested the bike on. On that road, the bike took every sharp turn like a full suspension mountain bike squatting into a corner and popping out to maintain momentum. Not to say it rides like a moutnain bike but that is the feeling you get coming from a dirt background. The responsiveness of this bike is phenomenal and the fact that it weighs just above the UCI minimum (14.99 lbs. vs. 15.70 lbs) makes it that much better.
This is the perfect bike for the rider who wants to race crits or stage races and have a chance of winning. The Immortal Team is up for any challenge and won’t cost your first-born child to do so.
*Strengths:*
The component spec reaches far beyond the total price of the bike if you were to purchase each part separately. At a bike shop, I would be ready to plop down around $6,000 for this bike. Great value.
The carbon fiber frame is extremely light and durable and the complete carbon fiber spec makes for an ultra light race machine.
*Weaknesses:*
If you can call it a weakness, I would only like to see a full spec of Dura-Ace rather than the Cane/Creek/FSA/Shimano mix. The mix works very well together but if that is the only thing then I’m fully satisfied with the bike. If you do want a full Dura-Ace spec, get the Immortal Spirit, which comes equipped with that set. The Team edition was mixed to fine tune weight specifications.


----------



## Meatball

Who are you?


----------



## elohttub

*I ride and write*



Meatball said:


> Who are you?


I work for a mountain bike magazine and we used to have a road magazine as well but had to shelve it due to not having a good enough editor. It iwll come back int he near future as we are currently talking with a person in the industry to take it over. Our MTB magazine has been in publication for 20 years. I was cross training for DH racing on this bike.


----------



## il sogno

elohttub said:


> I'm trying to upload photos of the bike as well but am having trouble. If someone could help me out with that, please let me know.


Hey, I'm in before the thread lock for a change! 

elo your pics might be too big. Try going to irfanview.com. You can download their viewer and reduce the size of your pics. We're all looking forward to seeing pics of the bike.


----------



## bikesdirect

*Please post pictures and also cal "J"*



elohttub said:


> I do not work for BikesDirect and I DO work for a magazine in Los Angeles. I was unaware of their being "not welcome" here and think it's funny that you believe some people may have been posing which may be entirely true although I am unaware of this. I was posting this as a proper review of a good bike that I have actually tested, not someone from their company doing so.



Hi

Thanks for posting the reveiw. 'J' called me and told me to look for your post and I showed up to find this mess starting.

I understand that the office sent that bike to you at Roadie International about 9 months ago. And I was told that since the mag is not be printed right now; you wanted to post about the bike.

RBR is a special place and you will need to ID yourself if you do not mind
and/or at least post the pictures.

I am trying to call 'J' to get more info on this that I can post.

Thanks again


----------



## Argentius

*I smell a shill!*

If you're not, let me explain why this feels like a shill:

* First post is a glowing review of a Bikesdirect.com bike, We've seen this 10,000 times before.
* No comparisons to other bikes in category
* Irrelevant price explosion -- bikes that BD has always sold for $1,500 first "retail" at $3,000, then this "At a bike shop, I would be ready to plop down around $6,000 for this bike." 
* Only weakness cited is a straw man
* No photos, no links to photos, no website, no link to other bikes you've reviewed.
* "You wouldn’t believe that something so light would be able to hold up;" lots of roadbikes weigh this much. Further, the only Immortal Force listed currently on Bikesdirect.com is sans pedals, cages, computer, etc., with superlight TT tires, and it weighs "approximately" 16.5lbs in that state. Real world weight of that bike would be the same 17-18 lbs that everything else weighs.
* Review is vague, but all postive: it's "good looking," "sexy," "incredibly strong," "beefy," etc. 
* This review could easily have been written by anyone, without actually riding the bike. There's no impression of what actually riding it is like, except one mention of a particular descent in which the bike handled like a "full suspension mountain bike." If this were true, it would be terrible! Everything a full suspension bike does is the opposite of what you want a roadbike to do!


If this were a REAL review of a REAL bike, it would at least sound vaguely like it was written by someone who has ridden a road bike before.

No, you don't get to make the excuses that you're an MTB magazine new to the road. It's not as though you're just a customer saying "Oh, wow, I haven't ridden a road bike in 20 years, but this is sure lighter than I remember them being!"

So, you were saying about not being a shill?


----------



## Argentius

EDIT : okay, I will confess -- _Roadie International_ WAS a real magazine, I read a copy at Borders a few months back, and it did say it was the last issue for a while.

But if all a roadie mag can do is claim that roadbikes handle like full-suspension MTBs, it shouldn't be in business. :S


----------



## bikesdirect

*your nose is broken*

I think you need to get your smeller checked

I have had a long Silence Dogood letters discussion with all my employees. No one who works for me will ever post here or on any site without IDing themselves. Period

The poster of this reveiw is not a shill for my company. He is a guy at a magazine that tested a bike and was sorry he could not get the reveiw printed as they stopped printing the magazine.


----------



## bikesdirect

*I read that bigredbill mess*



MB1 said:


> First bigredbill and now this.
> 
> This is great. It almost makes me feel sorry for those fools. They had no idea what they were getting into.
> 
> ROTFLAMO


I read that IBEX post by the bigredbill guy. I wished I had read it before it was closed.
I have meet Jack at the bike show and he stuck me has a nice solid guy. 
And I have worked on the floor of retail stores enough to understand how some customers can push a retailer to their limits.

I wish I could have had time to post my full thoughts on that post by bigredball


----------



## elohttub

*No problem...*



Argentius said:


> If you're not, let me explain why this feels like a shill:
> 
> * First post is a glowing review of a Bikesdirect.com bike, We've seen this 10,000 times before.
> * No comparisons to other bikes in category
> * Irrelevant price explosion -- bikes that BD has always sold for $1,500 first "retail" at $3,000, then this "At a bike shop, I would be ready to plop down around $6,000 for this bike."
> * Only weakness cited is a straw man
> * No photos, no links to photos, no website, no link to other bikes you've reviewed.
> * "You wouldn’t believe that something so light would be able to hold up;" lots of roadbikes weigh this much. Further, the only Immortal Force listed currently on Bikesdirect.com is sans pedals, cages, computer, etc., with superlight TT tires, and it weighs "approximately" 16.5lbs in that state. Real world weight of that bike would be the same 17-18 lbs that everything else weighs.
> * Review is vague, but all postive: it's "good looking," "sexy," "incredibly strong," "beefy," etc.
> * This review could easily have been written by anyone, without actually riding the bike. There's no impression of what actually riding it is like, except one mention of a particular descent in which the bike handled like a "full suspension mountain bike." If this were true, it would be terrible! Everything a full suspension bike does is the opposite of what you want a roadbike to do!
> 
> 
> If this were a REAL review of a REAL bike, it would at least sound vaguely like it was written by someone who has ridden a road bike before.
> 
> No, you don't get to make the excuses that you're an MTB magazine new to the road. It's not as though you're just a customer saying "Oh, wow, I haven't ridden a road bike in 20 years, but this is sure lighter than I remember them being!"
> 
> So, you were saying about not being a shill?


Alright Argenius, I give. I race DH mountain bikes. You caught me, I don't race road bikes. I do however know what a bike should feel like. As far as the statement about the bike squatting into a corner like a FS bike, that's a very true statement for my feeling. I find that to be an incredibly great aspect for a bike that "feels like" it is squatting into a corner to set up for the next section. I never said it acted like an FS bike. It just felt that way. I have ridden one other road bike as a test which was printed before Roadie went out of publication and it was an Isaac. I have never posted my reviews here before becasue we have never been we have had a magazine to do that for us. I also don't compare it to other bikes becasue that is not a policy of ours to compare as it creates a dilemma that nobody in our business wants to handle. We don't create enemies by reviewing things against others. Companies don't like that.


----------



## Dave Hickey

Now it all makes sense. My problem with Roadie International was the bike reviews. The only reviews in the magazine were from the advertisers...I never believed any of the bike reviews when the magazine was published and I certainly don't put any credibility in this review.


----------



## il sogno

elohttub said:


> I have never posted my reviews here before becasue we have never been we have had a magazine to do that for us. I also don't compare it to other bikes becasue that is not a policy of ours to compare as it creates a dilemma that nobody in our business wants to handle. We don't create enemies by reviewing things against others. Companies don't like that.


So how does it ride compared to a Colnago or a Merckx or a Look ( a REAL French bike!)? I mean since this is not your mag and you are posting in RBR you can tell us...


----------



## physasst

*Don't*



Dave Hickey said:


> Now it all makes sense. My problem with Roadie International was the bike reviews. The only reviews in the magazine were from the advertisers...I never believed any of the bike reviews when the magazine was published and I certainly don't put any credibility in this review.



we HAVE a motorbacon forum below...where this probably belongs.....????


----------



## bikesdirect

*I have not heard of this*



Lifelover said:


> Seems like a little counter attack after the post over at Bikeforums about the fork failing.
> 
> Wonder if either poster will ever provide pics?



I have not heard of a fork on an Immortal ever failing. Nor any other fork made by Advanced. It could happen; but I have not heard of it. I will look into it if I can find it on bikeforums.

I do admit I am not a carbon fiber expert. But when it was time to spec the Immortal I took a simple approach. I ask every frame maker 
Who is the oldest maker of CF frames?
Who is the best maker of CF framess?
Who is the most expensive maker of CF frames?
Who builds for the top names in Europe?
Everyone I ask answered "Advanced".
And they build LOOKs frames and I know the guys at Look from the Peugeot days; so I called them. Great reports.

So Immortals are made by Advanced; cost us a little more than going to China for a frame. But I think it is worth it. 

In summary, if there is a fork failure due to defect on an Immortal; I will be shocked.


----------



## Argentius

elohttub said:


> We don't create enemies by reviewing things against others. Companies don't like that.


Hrm. I'm not a magazine editor, but why is it that most bike magazines I read perform head-to-head comparisons? You'll read "Budget racer showdown!" "Aluminum verus Carbon duel" and what have you. Perhaps the manufacturers specifcally give permission for such comparos?

I'm inclined to believe you're actually from RI -- like I said, I read an issue, it was a decent magazine.

But perhaps you can see why this seemed like a shill to us? We've had plenty of people who were actually bikesdirect shills show up and do the same thing -- use their first post to post up a picture-less, glowing review of a bikesdirect bike.

Or, from another angle, what prompted you to sign up for RBR to post this review? With respect, it doesn't say much other than "this bike is light and strong, I like it." Typical reviews in magazines tend to be more qualified or specific, anything from "I usually prefer classic bars, but the supplied anatomical bend proved quite comfortable" or "Previous American Classic 350 wheels have been the subject of recalls and quality control issues, but these ones felt stiff and stable." See what I mean?

If I were to hop on a fictional DH bike, having rarely ridden them, all I could say about it is "Wow, this thing is tough. It sucks up bumps in the way nothing else does. Components are top-spec, and it really is an amazing deal for the price. Cornering is excellent. The tires have great traction in both loose and hardpack conditions." A "real" DH rider would've gotten absolutely nothing from that review.


----------



## elohttub

Dave Hickey said:


> Now it all makes sense. My problem with Roadie International was the bike reviews. The only reviews in the magazine were from the advertisers...I never believed any of the bike reviews when the magazine was published and I certainly don't put any credibility in this review.


Nope, the reviews were done by someone who was according to the senior editor a former racer and coach. We will have a new editor fromt he industry real soon and hope he can turn things around for us. You don't have to put any credibility in my review, I just posted it to educate people interested in buying a bike about a really good product.


----------



## CFBlue

physasst said:


> we HAVE a motorbacon forum below...where this probably belongs.....????


+1 Move this to the Moto forum where it belongs. Then anyone who wants to read shilling can go over and look for it.

BikesDirect sucks as a company, and I will never buy from them.


----------



## Coolhand

*Moderator's Note*

I have moved this to our moto forum, and cleaned up some of the shenaningans. To paraphrase royalty "we are not amused". *Keep your posts on topic and within the forum guidelines-especially those set forth by Gregg at the top of the forum. *

Thanks for your understanding.


----------



## Dave Hickey

Sorry but it didn't appear that way. I'm just telling you my reason for not liking Roadie International. My impression of the magazine was that it was one big advertisement. I don't know if it was a chicken or egg senario but it appeared that every review had an associated ad with it....Just my 2 cents........


----------



## JayTee

Boy, if BD didn't have a hand in this thread it does indeed seem odd how quickly it came to their attention.

But okay, let's look at this "review" on the merits. According to his profile, the OP is a mountain biker who doesn't even own a road bike. So he's about as qualified to review road bikes as my 70 year old mother (who would say that they all feel stiff, wobbly, and have the seat too high). 

There's a REVIEW part of this site, too. 

Oh, and I'm skeptical about the "I'm a professional writer" gig from a guy whose "professional" review includes such grammatic atrocities as "One particular screamer in the Los Angeles area is Decker Canyon Road which I tested the bike on." 

Finally I've never seen a (ahem) journalist so invested in his review that he says "email me or the manufacturer to find out more about this awesome bike." The whole thing smells.


----------



## Dave Hickey

bikesdirect said:


> And they build LOOKs frames and I know the guys at Look from the Peugeot days; so I called them. Great reports.
> 
> .


Just to be clear. Advance builds the lower cost LOOK frames(nothing wrong with that). LOOK has their own factory in Tunesia that builds the higher end models. Advance has never built the higher end LOOK frames. The top models were made in France and they are now made in Tunesia.


----------



## elohttub

*Here are the bike pics*

Moving all pictures into the original post...

Hopefully I uploaded these properly. Had to give it a little clean up for the shots.


----------



## bikesdirect

*exactly correct*



Dave Hickey said:


> Just to be clear. Advance builds the lower cost LOOK frames(nothing wrong with that). LOOK has their own factory in Tunesia that builds the higher end models. Advance has never built the higher end LOOK frames. The top models were made in France and they are now made in Tunesia.



That is exactly correct. And the last time I was at the offices of Look in France they indicated they would continue to make frames in their own facility. However, if their sales grow there is no question that Asia would make a larger percentage.

My own feeling; excellent frames can be made anywhere if you have the right management team and enough funding.


----------



## elohttub

jtolleson said:


> Boy, if BD didn't have a hand in this thread it does indeed seem odd how quickly it came to their attention.
> 
> But okay, let's look at this "review" on the merits. According to his profile, the OP is a mountain biker who doesn't even own a road bike. So he's about as qualified to review road bikes as my 70 year old mother (who would say that they all feel stiff, wobbly, and have the seat too high).
> 
> There's a REVIEW part of this site, too.
> 
> Oh, and I'm skeptical about the "I'm a professional writer" gig from a guy whose "professional" review includes such grammatic atrocities as "One particular screamer in the Los Angeles area is Decker Canyon Road which I tested the bike on."
> 
> Finally I've never seen a (ahem) journalist so invested in his review that he says "email me or the manufacturer to find out more about this awesome bike." The whole thing smells.


Find the part of the thread where it says "I'm a professional writer" giving a "professional" review. But, because you are the expert here, how about this, you just got yourself a job reviewing bikes for us and you will be testing them out and putting your two cents in. I'm sure this will be very enlightening.


----------



## JayTee

Let's see, you offered a "review" that you said was for a "magazine" but couldn't be printed so you were generously offering your (ahem) wisdom to us (specifically, you offered to "educate" us about this Motobecane with you had been "testing for some time." When asked who you were, you said "I ride and I write" and described your magazine affiliation. If you don't think you were suggesting a level of expertise in either writing or bicycling, then you are kidding yourself.

Most of us normal folk (and that's all we are... who's claiming to be an expert) reviewed the bikes we own in the REVIEW section of the website (d'oh! What a concept!).


----------



## awesometown

Well hopefully this will get them a bump in sales and free up some cash to redesign THE WORST WEBSITE IN THE UNIVERSE... I have trouble taking it seriously because it looks like I am trying to purchase herbal ****** or something equally shady when I browse bd.com.


----------



## bikesdirect

*Not likely -- LOL*



awesometown said:


> Well hopefully this will get them a bump in sales and free up some cash to redesign THE WORST WEBSITE IN THE UNIVERSE... I have trouble taking it seriously because it looks like I am trying to purchase herbal ****** or something equally shady when I browse bd.com.



You sound like my employees!
Let's spend money. [I wish I could put the smile on my face on here] is this it? 

the bikesdirect web site works great
we are selling bikes very well and the growth rate is all we can handle right now.

My attitude is the same on fixing something that is not broken as it is on putting in a phone line --- Will it make the bikes ride better? {speaking of phone line - we do talk to customers all the time; but avoid the cost of a general call in line in order to lower prices and make communication as clear as it can be}

Our sales have been growing online faster than our store sales and I put the 'extra' that results in where I like to see it. The Specs. I am very pleased with the value we offer now and I am always working to improve that. Improving value delivered will come before changing my focus to building fancier site. Most customers will appreciate that I think.


----------



## bikesdirect

*thanks for posting the pictures*



elohttub said:


> Hopefully I uploaded these properly. Had to give it a little clean up for the shots.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting the pictures; and I am sorry you got attacked here. I hope that Roadie International can make a come back. We need more cycling magazines and less pubications on the personal lifes of famous people [my opinion may not be the same as the general public's]


----------



## stainofmind

They BD site ain't all that pretty, but it's not difficult to navigate or anything. In fact, it's a little refreshing to see a site without all the bells and whistles now days. Everyone is trying too hard to do everything.


----------



## Lifelover

bikesdirect said:


> I think you need to get your smeller checked
> 
> I have had a long Silence Dogood letters discussion with all my employees. No one who works for me will ever post here or on any site without IDing themselves. Period
> 
> The poster of this reveiw is not a shill for my company. He is a guy at a magazine that tested a bike and was sorry he could not get the reveiw printed as they stopped printing the magazine.



You asked your employees not to post but you specifically ask this guy too?



elohttub said:


> I was asked by the company to post my review since it was never published, on the internet to get some visibility out about the bike.


http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=3237299&postcount=17


----------



## il sogno

elohttub said:


> *Summary:*
> They don’t have a winning rider from a foreign country, but Motobecane can put out a really Tour-worthy bike. The Immortal Team is one seriously high-end bike for a paltry cost compared to any other bike with a similar build. As far as spec goes, the list is premium, utilizing Shimano’s Dura-Ace and FSA’s K-Force super light carbon components. The Cane Creek brakes are competition proven stoppers and the Sprint 350 wheelset by American Classic is the top of the line clincher set they make. Michelin provides the traction with their Pro Race tires, which grip the road like exteremely well.
> At first glance, the high modulus carbon fiber frameset is sexy. The smooth curves in the bottom bracket, headset and seatmast joints are not only good looking but also incredibly strong. The molded carbon fiber frame provides more stiffness than a traditional aluminum frame and offers superior lateral rigidity to help you hold your lines on even the steepest descents. The majority of the beef in the frame is right down at the bottom bracket. This continues out through the chainstays and seat stays providing the muscle to stand up and mash on the pedals up the hills you couldn’t make before. This frame is solid! Weigh it on a scale and you wouldn’t believe that something so light would be able to hold up under pressure but after just over 3,000 miles in the saddle, this bike is still as strong and stiff as the day it was pulled out of the box. The carbon fork and steertube have no stress cracks from potholes I encountered and dampen even the roughest roads. Hand fatigue is greatly reduced with the carbon barset and stem. I actually thought I would see some stress marks down in the bottom bracket area after that many miles but I was proven wrong. Even at the most ass-puckering speeds going down some of the steepest roads which bikes should not be allowed on, this bike handled the corners and descents with aplomb. On full tilt, the bike holds its line so well that you felt as if it were on rails. The American Classic wheels are just so stiff that you get no rotational twist at any angle. One particular screaming descent in the Los Angeles area is Decker Canyon Road which I tested the bike on. On that road, the bike took every sharp turn like a full suspension mountain bike squatting into a corner and popping out to maintain momentum. Not to say it rides like a moutnain bike but that is the feeling you get coming from a dirt background. The responsiveness of this bike is phenomenal and the fact that it weighs just above the UCI minimum (14.99 lbs. vs. 15.70 lbs) makes it that much better.
> This is the perfect bike for the rider who wants to race crits or stage races and have a chance of winning. The Immortal Team is up for any challenge and won’t cost your first-born child to do so.


You talk about descents but how does it climb?


----------



## Dave Hickey

hmmmmmm....Great detective work Lifelover

For those that don't want to click over to Bikeforums, here is Elottub's post over there today

_I decided to post this since I don't normally spend much time on the forum boards. I was asked by the company to post my review since it was never published, on the internet to get some visibility out about the bike.
What brought me to it is that I am on the MTB boards if I ever go there.

What have I learned? That the road community has WAY more aniomsity and aggression than the MTB community and seem to hate on new forum posters. I understand my credibility here is nothing and you can take my review with a grain of salt. I have read that Motobecane is not a very popular brand in here and will probably relay that to the brand manager over there and see if he is aware of that. Aside from that, I will finish up my day here in the office and head off do some shuttle runs today and gear up for my ride on Saturday where we are heading out from Simi Valley to Orange County via Topanga Canyon on the road. You guys enjoy your day as well._

Once a shill always a shill


----------



## elohttub

jtolleson said:


> Let's see, you offered a "review" that you said was for a "magazine" but couldn't be printed so you were generously offering your (ahem) wisdom to us (specifically, you offered to "educate" us about this Motobecane with you had been "testing for some time." When asked who you were, you said "I ride and I write" and described your magazine affiliation. If you don't think you were suggesting a level of expertise in either writing or bicycling, then you are kidding yourself.
> 
> Most of us normal folk (and that's all we are... who's claiming to be an expert) reviewed the bikes we own in the REVIEW section of the website (d'oh! What a concept!).


Meh, last thing I need to do is battle with someone claiming to be better than me. At least you took interest in this and that's what counts so it looks like the bike won out overall.


----------



## elohttub

*Yup. Although it wasn't the first...*



Dave Hickey said:


> hmmmmmm....Great detective work Lifelover
> 
> For those that don't want to click over to Bikeforums, here is Elottub's first post over there today
> 
> _I decided to post this since I don't normally spend much time on the forum boards. I was asked by the company to post my review since it was never published, on the internet to get some visibility out about the bike.
> What brought me to it is that I am on the MTB boards if I ever go there.
> 
> What have I learned? That the road community has WAY more aniomsity and aggression than the MTB community and seem to hate on new forum posters. I understand my credibility here is nothing and you can take my review with a grain of salt. I have read that Motobecane is not a very popular brand in here and will probably relay that to the brand manager over there and see if he is aware of that. Aside from that, I will finish up my day here in the office and head off do some shuttle runs today and gear up for my ride on Saturday where we are heading out from Simi Valley to Orange County via Topanga Canyon on the road. You guys enjoy your day as well._
> 
> Once a shill always a shill


So what's your point here Dave? From what I see, you say the word "shill" a ton of times but haven't made a point. Isn't the moderator supposed to provide bipartisan support here? You've made the threads about maintaining some decency on your boards yet you come on here and act like a complete dick to me for posting a review. Shouldn't that be your agenda here? Getting out the word aobut bikes in the industry or are you paid by someone to keep it to your favorite brands? Looks like someone is here to play God rather than support the industry in which they work.:thumbsup:


----------



## elohttub

*I felt the climbing was super stable*



il sogno said:


> You talk about descents but how does it climb?


 Out of the saddle it felt like it was pushing all of the force fromt he pedals into the rear wheel which it should do although some frames tend to flex a bit torsionally when you climb. The fact that this frame is one piece molded carbon fiber and extremely beefy at the bottom bracket made all of the energy and the pedalling forces push really hard to move back wheel forward. I didn't feel that the Sprint 350's had any give side to side so they held up under my type of standing climb, which is no Rasmussen but I still made it up pretty quickly.


----------



## JayTee

Wow, if that's what you took from my posts, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Oh well. Congratulations on your success. I'm sure I'll be promoting and buying lots of Motobecanes because I "took interest" in your thread.


----------



## elohttub

*Save it genius...*



jtolleson said:


> Wow, if that's what you took from my posts, what we have here is a failure to communicate.
> 
> Oh well. Congratulations on your success. I'm sure I'll be promoting and buying lots of Motobecanes because I "took interest" in your thread.


You read the whole thread which was the point of posting a review. If you go out and buy one...I'm sure you'll like it as much as I did. If not, well then yes I have failed to provide enough insight to an interested consumer. I shall try harder next time.:thumbsup:


----------



## elohttub

*By the way...*



jtolleson said:


> Boy, if BD didn't have a hand in this thread it does indeed seem odd how quickly it came to their attention.
> 
> But okay, let's look at this "review" on the merits. According to his profile, the OP is a mountain biker who doesn't even own a road bike. So he's about as qualified to review road bikes as my 70 year old mother (who would say that they all feel stiff, wobbly, and have the seat too high).
> 
> There's a REVIEW part of this site, too.
> 
> Oh, and I'm skeptical about the "I'm a professional writer" gig from a guy whose "professional" review includes such grammatic atrocities as "One particular screamer in the Los Angeles area is Decker Canyon Road which I tested the bike on."
> 
> Finally I've never seen a (ahem) journalist so invested in his review that he says "email me or the manufacturer to find out more about this awesome bike." The whole thing smells.


Motobecane jumped in on this because I let them know that I was posting about their bike. Just liek I do with all bikes we review that their bike is going to be put in the magazine.


----------



## Dave Hickey

_"If you go out and buy one...I'm sure you'll like it as much as I did. "_


BIG difference..You didn't go out and buy one. BikesDirect gave you one to test. You rode it and posted a review after *they* asked you to.....Let's stop with this nonsense.


----------



## Dave Hickey

.....Have a wonderful day and good luck with your new magazine......


----------



## elohttub

*What nonsense Dave?*



Dave Hickey said:


> _"If you go out and buy one...I'm sure you'll like it as much as I did. "_
> 
> 
> BIG difference..You didn't go out and buy one. BikesDirect gave you one to test. You rode it and posted a review after *they* asked you to.....Let's stop with this nonsense.


 I'm trying to figure out why you are attacking me? Of course they asked me to post a review of the bike. That's why they gave it to us! Actually they asked us to review it in the magazine which for circumstances I could not control was unable to happen. That's what they do. They do it for every other magazine in the industry. I know for a fact you guys get in bikes to test as well so what differentiates the two of us? PM me becasue this is ridiculous arguing about it over the forum boards. We should handle this directly.


----------



## bahueh

*you're a professional writer? are you sure?*



elohttub said:


> I'm trying to figure out why you are attacking me? Of course they asked me to post a review of the bike. That's why they gave it to us! .


us? me? question mark after a statement?


----------



## elohttub

bahueh said:


> us? me? question mark after a statement?


Slip of the typing key but more of a question than a statement. Us being the magazine. Me being the OP who jumped into this fire.


----------



## bahueh

*but it is you that misses the point..*



elohttub said:


> So what's your point here Dave? From what I see, you say the word "shill" a ton of times but haven't made a point. Isn't the moderator supposed to provide bipartisan support here? You've made the threads about maintaining some decency on your boards yet you come on here and act like a complete dick to me for posting a review. Shouldn't that be your agenda here? Getting out the word aobut bikes in the industry or are you paid by someone to keep it to your favorite brands? Looks like someone is here to play God rather than support the industry in which they work.:thumbsup:


as you have not researched your audience (another thing a true writer does). those of us here with any longevity know what a "shill" is and they have also experienced the tactics of BD in the past in regards to these posts, reviews, and posting tactics. 

I cannot understand the repetitive nature of their approaches as I see it much like throwing gasoline on your burning house. Good business returns can only come from good business tactics, and biased reviews posted repeatedly on a website that is full of alert, participatory readers, keen to such postings, could apparently be the wrong environment for such advertising techniques.


----------



## elohttub

*Bahueh...*



bahueh said:


> as you have not researched your audience (another thing a true writer does). those of us here with any longevity know what a "shill" is and they have also experienced the tactics of BD in the past in regards to these posts, reviews, and posting tactics.
> 
> I cannot understand the repetitive nature of their approaches as I see it much like throwing gasoline on your burning house. Good business returns can only come from good business tactics, and biased reviews posted repeatedly on a website that is full of alert, participatory readers, keen to such postings, could apparently be the wrong environment for such advertising techniques.


 This was not an advertisement for Moto. It was a simple review of a bike that got placed into the wrong forum. There is no bike on the list of Motos to place a review of it so I put it here not knowing this is how I would get treated. I can't say that I would have read every post on the internet first aobut Moto either becasue now it seems I could have been doing that for days. This is not and I repeat NOT an ad for Moto. It is a bike review of a bike that we have had in our hands for some time which was supposed to be reviewed in a shelved magazine. Our business tactics are to post reviews and print reviews of bikes we are assigned to test. Thank you for being honest though.


----------



## bikesdirect

Lifelover said:


> You asked your employees not to post but you specifically ask this guy too?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=3237299&postcount=17



Good question: two answers
1 - actually I told my employees to not post anytime on any cycling forum unless they ID themselves and their intent
2 - I did not ask the poster from Roadie International to post anything; I have never spoken with him. However, my employyes did send this bike in to be reveiwed [just like they do with other magazines]. It is my understanding that he offered to post his review after Roadie International stopped printing mags.


----------



## bikesdirect

*please try to be fair - is that a lot to ask?*

HERE is what you posted

And if I may quote you.... 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by elohttub
...... I have ridden one other road bike....... 


nmnmndm

AND HERE IS WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID

I have ridden one other road bike as a test

------
clearly he mainly tests mountain bikes; and has only tested for the magazine two road bikes -- that is not the same as saying he has only ridden two road bikes ever.

you seem to have left out the rst of his sentense on purpose
maybe not - but that's how it looks


----------



## bikesdirect

*no objective reviews*



Dave Hickey said:


> Now it all makes sense. My problem with Roadie International was the bike reviews. The only reviews in the magazine were from the advertisers...I never believed any of the bike reviews when the magazine was published and I certainly don't put any credibility in this review.



Dave

there are no objective product reviews in publications I know of; I assume this applies to car magazines, audio mags, etc

there are objective bying experience reviews in one place that I know of

of course, if you feel you can do an objective review - I can supply you a bike at our Plano store to test ride. Then you can go to Jimmy's store and ride a bike at the same price range. And post a fair comparison.

I would love a comparison at say under $1500 race bike. Compare ours to anything in Big D at the same price.

what is your size?

Mike


----------



## bikesdirect

*Thank You*



stainofmind said:


> They BD site ain't all that pretty, but it's not difficult to navigate or anything. In fact, it's a little refreshing to see a site without all the bells and whistles now days. Everyone is trying too hard to do everything.



Thanks - that is exactly my feeling and idea
a site to buy things should be easy to use and straight foreward

I do like it when the site trying to get me to add stuff on or surprises me with shipping charges at the last minute

I am happy to hear that you find it easy to use


----------



## JayTee

Save it genius? Wow! That grammar correction must have really ticked you off. 

As for your claim that you merely "jumped" into a fire, I think I see a lighter and can o' gasoline in your hands.

Have a NICE day.


----------



## JayTee

bikesdirect said:


> I think you need to get your smeller checked
> 
> I have had a long Silence Dogood letters discussion with all my employees. No one who works for me will ever post here or on any site without IDing themselves. Period
> 
> The poster of this reveiw is not a shill for my company. He is a guy at a magazine that tested a bike and was sorry he could not get the reveiw printed as they stopped printing the magazine.



Well, you don't say when you had the come to Jesus meeting and in fairness to the skeptics here, it has only been about 3-4 weeks since a couple of your folks got busted pretty red-handed (by IP addresses). So, in fairness, given the history (and the fact that we aren't all privy to your internal "come to Jesus" meetings) I would think that you'd be understanding of the skepticism here. 

If you had such a sincere talk with folks (and I have no reason to believe you didn't) then I would suggest that it was a mistake for BD to ask this guy (though nominally a third party) to post his glowing review here. The fallout seemed very predictable.

My suggestion, and I mean it without any intent to sound snotty or flaming, is for the company to play no hand into what gets posted on this and other discussion board regarding its products. To my knowledge (and I could be wrong) this issue has not come up here with any other builder or vendor.


----------



## bikesdirect

*Not the term I would use*



jtolleson said:


> Well, you don't say when you had the come to Jesus meeting and in fairness to the skeptics here, it has only been about 3-4 weeks since a couple of your folks got busted pretty red-handed (by IP addresses). So, in fairness, given the history (and the fact that we aren't all privy to your internal "come to Jesus" meetings) I would think that you'd be understanding of the skepticism here.
> 
> If you had such a sincere talk with folks (and I have no reason to believe you didn't) then I would suggest that it was a mistake for BD to ask this guy (though nominally a third party) to post his glowing review here. The fallout seemed very predictable.
> 
> My suggestion, and I mean it without any intent to sound snotty or flaming, is for the company to play no hand into what gets posted on this and other discussion board regarding its products. To my knowledge (and I could be wrong) this issue has not come up here with any other builder or vendor.


I am not sure I like the term 'come to jesus'
however I understand your question

I had several discussions with my staff after I first logged on to the site
I guess about a month ago

These forums are a interesting community and I wish I had time to visit more of them. I wonder if there is a American Revealution or Ben Franklin forum? Maybe when my kids grow up and move off I'll have to time to look.

First thing I have found out is that calling any new poster on RBR who is interested in buying a bike online a shill for us has become always a running joke. I has shocked at the number of our customers my staff had e-mails about this from. [this has been funny to some customers and others find it insulting and a reason to not visit the forum]

Second the guy from Roadie International I have never spoken with. My understanding is that he called us and felt bad he could not print his reveiw. My staff suggested he post it on sites related to road biking. I do not think the suggestion was a bad idea. But the poster was new to forums and had trouble loading his pictures and didn't give his full info to start. I still do not think he should be called names.

My opinion, the guy from Roadie International should not have been attacked. As a new poster he should have been ask a few nice questions. Most magazines in our business make almost no money. Several have gone under. People who work at the magazines are also not getting rich. When I go to the news stands it makes me sick. There are not nearly enough magazines about cycling.

In addition, I would add -- I wish magazines did shot outs. As you might guess I think consumers would love articles like "We compare all the under 16 lb road racing bikes less than $2000" and "XC race bikes under 20 lbs duke it out". [just a little joke - dont get all crazy]


----------

