# Out there



## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

*Out there: Chris Horner*

I wanted to make this a new thread, just to give the issue a full discussion.

Chris Horner has released his Biological Passport results all the way back to its inception in 2008. Has anyone else done this? Is it enough to convince anyone? What say you all, Doping Forum?

www.chrishornerracing.com - Home


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

I'd say it would be a great read, if only it were legible to the average 60 year old eyes. :lol:

I don't see any tab to enlarge it---am I missing something?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I need performance enhancing vision drugs to be able to read anything!


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Ctrl+ ?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> I need performance enhancing vision drugs to be able to read anything!


Only thing I can make out is his HCT values. And then only the first digit.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mpre53 said:


> Only thing I can make out is his HCT values. And then only the first digit.


I am not computer professor, but I believe the feature you are looking for is "zoom"


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

like this


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

foto said:


> like this
> 
> View attachment 287140


Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator.

I have Chrome on my home PC. I'll try it later. Lots of features are blocked on my work PC. I can enlarge your screen capture, but that's it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Well, Horner and Froome officially have proven that cycling is finally clean, this time. :idea:


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

It worked for Lance didn't it? The people who think Horner is clean will use the data as proof. The people who think he doped..will use the data as proof. That particular circular debate was in full swing at Cycling News a few hours ago. It's PR for the uninitiated and unconcerned.


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## Cyclo-phile (Sep 22, 2005)

With Firefox it's right click, view image.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

This is a good move. Horner has also released his power data. Even if you think power data and biopassport are insufficient for catching all forms of doping, we should still applaud transparency. 



Question to those who think Horner is dirty: What else can he do to convince you?


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> This is a good move. Horner has also released his power data. Even if you think power data and biopassport are insufficient for catching all forms of doping, we should still applaud transparency.
> 
> 
> 
> Question to those who think Horner is dirty: What else can he do to convince you?


I agree.

Some doubters will always doubt and there is nothing that can be done to change them (not that I blame them, cycling has done this to themselves). Hopefully the peloton is cleaning up their act and more and more will have faith (until proven guilty).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I think the fact that Vino won the Olympics clean, Froome's TdF total domination, and Horner _probably_ shows that whatever the pros are using are well beyond what the testers can detect.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

sir duke said:


> It worked for Lance didn't it? The people who think Horner is clean will use the data as proof. The people who think he doped..will use the data as proof. That particular circular debate was in full swing at Cycling News a few hours ago. It's PR for the uninitiated and unconcerned.


Ymssra.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I think the fact that Vino won the Olympics clean, Froome's TdF total domination, and Horner _probably_ shows that whatever the pros are using are well beyond what the testers can detect.


Right now pro UCI cyclists have 24/7 whereabouts requirements. Horner has taken an extra step in posting his power numbers and biopassport data. Kittel took a polygraph.

But I agree it is possible that some (many? most? all?) are still doping. 

What else can be done to increase transparency? 



Bluenote said:


> Ymssra.


What does that even mean?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> What else can be done to increase transparency?


No clue. Some rider will have to be caught red-handed to see what exactly they're using. They're either using methods to keep stuff lower than analysis machines can detect and/or they're using something new that we simply aren't able to detect yet. 

Other than the two riders at the Giro this year who were using outdated doping methods, we haven't caught too many big name riders in years.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> Right now pro UCI cyclists have 24/7 whereabouts requirements.


please explain.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

den bakker said:


> please explain.


*Whereabouts Rules*

Under these strict new rules registered riders have to let the UCI know where they are 24 hours a day 7 days a week. They have to submit a form every quarter saying where they will be every day of the next quarter and they must notify the UCI if they change their whereabouts on any day. This means the whereabouts information provided in the whereabouts filings is accurate and sufficient in detail to enable any Anti-Doping Organization to locate him for Testing on any given day in the quarter. [6] This is by far the most invasive testing regime in the history of any sport. It's justifications are that all other regimes to find drug cheats has failed.

Biological passport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and Union Cycliste Internationale


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> *Whereabouts Rules*
> 
> Under these strict new rules registered riders have to let the UCI know where they are 24 hours a day 7 days a week. They have to submit a form every quarter saying where they will be every day of the next quarter and they must notify the UCI if they change their whereabouts on any day. This means the whereabouts information provided in the whereabouts filings is accurate and sufficient in detail to enable any Anti-Doping Organization to locate him for Testing on any given day in the quarter. [6] This is by far the most invasive testing regime in the history of any sport. It's justifications are that all other regimes to find drug cheats has failed.
> 
> ...


and how does that work with Horners notification leaving the vuelta? or his 1 hour window?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

den bakker said:


> and how does that work with Horners notification leaving the vuelta? or his 1 hour window?


He did give notification that he was changing his hotel, thus he notified of a change of whereabouts. 

From what I understand there is an established 1-hour testing window during stage races. The UCI knows exactly where Horner is during the race itself. The whereabouts are really a means of located a rider _outside of competition_.


EDIT: Knowing where the rider is 24 hours a day does not mean they need to update when they go to the market. It's not down to the minute or even the hour. There is no need for daily updates during the offseason if the athlete maintains the same home address.

Even if we made a reality show of pro cyclists, following them with cameras all day, they could theoretically sneak off to the bathroom and shoot up with drugs hidden behind the toilet.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> He did give notification that he was changing his hotel, thus he notified of a change of whereabouts.
> 
> From what I understand there is an established 1-hour testing window during stage races. The UCI knows exactly where Horner is during the race itself. The whereabouts are really a means of located a rider _outside of competition_.


stop digging.
and try wadas web pages instead of wiki.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

den bakker said:


> stop digging.
> and try wadas web pages instead of wiki.


Evidently the wiki showed the pre-2009 rule. 

I also made the mistake of taking your question at face value and not some socratic trap. For some reason you thought that saying "please explain" and "stop digging" was an effective of getting the correct information on this message board, rather than just posting it yourself.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> Question to those who think Horner is dirty: What else can he do to convince you?


Sue a journalist?


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

It doesn't take any new drugs or methods to avoid testing positive or being sanctioned based on the biopassport. IV microdosed EPO + autologous blood transfusion remain the gold standard and avoid direct detection if done properly. No gene doping necessary, especially for the nearly human numbers these guys are putting out.

Irregularities clearly show in his bio passport data, but the standards are set to avoid false positives; numerous false negatives are the unavoidable result. Horner's numbers are laughable but [so far] not sufficient in themselves to prove doping to the satisfaction of the reviewers. Having so few tests done makes the doping case more difficult too, since timing of the tests could provide an avenue of defense (e.g. could argue that the rise in reticulocytes that should have preceded his miraculous late tour hemoglobin rise wasn't captured in the few tests done).


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

sir duke said:


> Sue a journalist?


Almost impossible to do successfully in the US, at least. Chris Horner would be deemed a "public figure". As such, he would have to establish that what was printed was either knowingly false, or done with reckless disregard for the truth. There have been a handful of successful suits. Just a handful.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

mpre53 said:


> Almost impossible to do successfully in the US, at least. Chris Horner would be deemed a "public figure". As such, he would have to establish that what was printed was either knowingly false, or done with reckless disregard for the truth. There have been a handful of successful suits. Just a handful.


I forgot, you have a sensible legal attitude to libel in the States. He should sue a journalist n Britain...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

so it's been a few days, has the internet yet found any damning evidence in Horner's profiles?


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

The only "damning evidence" I have seen, is that Trek has signed the Schleck sisters, while Horner doesn't yet have a contract. I don't know about everyone else, but that is hard to figure unless the management has some info that we don't.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

It is more likely that Horner decided to bet on his fitness and hold off on negotiations until after the Vuelta. They (Trek) probably did not anticipate his elevated asking price and have been filling their new roster to get it buttoned up (Schlecks were probably a bargain). They are footing the bill for the whole team themselves as far as we know.


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## bbrrxx (Jul 17, 2013)

Feb 4/09 40.8 hematocrit
Mar 7/10 47.5 hematocrit

seems legit...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

The Tedinator said:


> The only "damning evidence" I have seen, is that Trek has signed the Schleck sisters, while Horner doesn't yet have a contract. I don't know about everyone else, but that is hard to figure unless the management has some info that we don't.


There can only be ONE EXPLANATION!!!


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