# Test ride on a Trek Domane 4.0 (and Cannondale Synapse 105)



## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

I started a previous thread on the pro's and con's of a couple of used bikes I was considering as an upgrade to my 2010 Fuji ACR2 Roubaix (bought used from Craigslist about two years ago.) Previous thread HERE. That thread kind of forked into looking for a reasonably priced new bike, so that's kind of a new topic.

The local Trek store has a Domane demo bike in the 58cm size, which a previous preliminary fit on their "Guru Fit" machine determined was most probably "my" size. So I went down to the Trek store today, intending to pick up the demo but found it was only available for 24 hrs.--I thought it was 72 hrs.--so I didn't pick it up today. But I did do about 30 minutes of test riding on Domane 4.0 with Tiagra, which is on sale, and the Cannondale Synapse with 105 to get a comparison. 

Both bikes were set up to the specs obtained on the Guru Fit machine earlier and I rode each of them for about 10 minute stints. Domane, Cannondale and then back to the Domane. Both bikes were a marked improvement over the Fuji but of the two the Domane definitely impressed me the most. It just felt a little bit smoother and more comfortable than the Cannondale. And since it's on sale for $500 less than the Cannondale, and since I didn't really notice any big difference between the Tiagra and 105 components based on today's experience I would choose the Domane without hesitation.

I'll probably still rent the demo Domane even though it's a higher-spec'd model (the 5.2--lighter/stronger (?) carbon and Ultegra group-set), so it won't be an strict apples-to-apples comparison, but the geo will be the same as the 4.0 This will give me the chance to spend more time on the Domane to make sure my initial impressions hold true. The only risk is that the particular bike I rode is on closeout @ $1,600 and is the only one in my size, so that's something I'll have to keep in mind.

When I got home I took the Fuji for a ride to get a comparison ride in while the Domane test was still somewhat fresh in my mind. My first thought, when I started up was that "this bike isn't really THAT bad," but after a few minutes of riding I began to feel the small discomforts of the Fuji. As I rode the Fuji around I tried to zero in on how my body felt and here's what I noticed:

1. I feel a pretty constricted in the waist area. I still have a good amount of extra belly and I noticed that when pedaling my midsection was much more constricted.

2. I had to reach just a bit further to the hoods--which exacerbated--or maybe was partly the cause of the midsection crunch.

3. My neck and shoulders definitely had some strain on them--trying to keep my head up caused noticeable strain on them.

4. The Domane is WAY more compliant over road imperfections than the Fuji.

It will be really interesting to ride the two back-to-back for a little more extended period. At the very least I feel like I have, _for the first time_, ridden a bike that actually felt pretty darn good and I have a reference point for further comparisons.

It's also a very pretty bike (IMHO)!


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

With your observations on the Fuji fresh after riding the Domane- sounds like adjusting the fit would make you more comfortable on it perhaps sparing you the expense of a new bike?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

It's good that you took a pic of the bike set up for you. The thing that strikes me is the fact that the bars are just below saddle height, so given the fact that Domane's have a longish HT, it tells me the geo lends itself to your current fit requirements - namely, saddle to bar drop. 

To get this same fit on your Fuji (or most any other race bike), at minimum, the fitter would need to employ max spacers, flipped up stems and possibly HT extenders, which IMO gets into the area of "making it fit", which isn't ideal.

Re: the areas of discomfort you noted, I think it goes back to saddle to bar drop more than reach. It's been established that you could improve fit on the Fuji, primarily in the area of reach, but it's going to be difficult to get an optimum fit out of that geo. I'd offer that selling it to offset the cost of the Domane would be the preferred route.

You're on the right track here, taking time to ride a couple of bike and return to (what now appears to be) your baseline for comparison. The only other bike I can think of that would be on a par with the Domane is the Spec Roubaix, but given the similarities in geo and the price on the closeout Domane, I don't know that you'd gain much.

I think your concern over the $1600 Domane being sold is founded, so one thing you may want to consider is asking the LBS about their return policy. Not all do it, but some offer a 30 day, money back return. This way, you aren't committed to the purchase before feeling 100% certain. Although, a bike purchase being a bit emotional, I think it's telling you posted a pic of the bike. You obviously, genuinely like it. And that means something. 

Good luck, and keep us updated.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> It's good that you took a pic of the bike set up for you. The thing that strikes me is the fact that the bars are just below saddle height, so given the fact that Domane's have a longish HT, it tells me the geo lends itself to your current fit requirements - namely, saddle to bar drop.
> 
> To get this same fit on your Fuji (or most any other race bike), at minimum, the fitter would need to employ max spacers, flipped up stems and possibly HT extenders, which IMO gets into the area of "making it fit", which isn't ideal.
> 
> Re: the areas of discomfort you noted, I think it goes back to saddle to bar drop more than reach. It's been established that you could improve fit on the Fuji, primarily in the area of reach, but it's going to be difficult to get an optimum fit out of that geo. I'd offer that selling it to offset the cost of the Domane would be the preferred route.


Hi PJ--thanks for chiming in.

To be clear the pic is just a stock shot of a Domane 4.0 in the same color. I don't know how close the setup in the pic is to actual bike. I'm going to go out and visit the Spesh LBS later and I'll stop and Trek and take a pic and you can see how they compare.

The Fuji already has all the spacers installed--about 1 1/4" worth. I'll attach a couple pix of the Fuji.



> You're on the *right track here*, taking time to ride a couple of bike and return to (what now appears to be) your baseline for comparison. The only other bike I can think of that would be on a par with the Domane is the Spec Roubaix, but given the similarities in geo and the price on the closeout Domane, I don't know that you'd gain much.


Yes! I feel like I'm finally on the right track! Sometimes we noobs take a few left turns before we start following your advice!



> I think your concern over the $1600 Domane being sold is founded, so one thing you may want to consider is asking the LBS about their return policy. Not all do it, but some offer a 30 day, money back return. This way, you aren't committed to the purchase before feeling 100% certain. Although, a bike purchase being a bit emotional, I think it's telling you posted a pic of the bike. You obviously, genuinely like it. And that means something.


I forgot to mention in the original post that Trek has a 30-day exchange policy. Full value can be applied to another bike, which is definitely a nice peace-of-mind factor. Protects against making some terrible mistake. Of course it also encourages instant "upgrade-itis." 

I'm scheduled for my first session with P2M Cycling guys tomorrow and am thinking about going and getting the demo Domane and taking both it and my Fuji there--they are also bike-fitters. But realistically I'm now fighting my own enthusiasm for the Domane as well as the high probability that the Fuji will never be tweaked to the same comfort level. Another 20 lbs and improved fitness level down the road that might not be true, life is short and it would be fun to have a bike that puts a smile on my face when I ride it.

I may also go to the local Spesh shop and see what they have. I feel some loyalty to them for their help so far. But I'm also very pleased with the effort the Trek guys have put into me so far.



> Good luck, and keep us updated.


Absolutely!

P.S. Bad pic of actual bike attached also.

STP


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Hi PJ--thanks for chiming in.
> 
> To be clear the pic is just a stock shot of a Domane 4.0 in the same color. I don't know how close the setup in the pic is to actual bike. I'm going to go out and visit the Spesh LBS later and I'll stop and Trek and take a pic and you can see how they compare.
> 
> The Fuji already has all the spacers installed--about 1 1/4" worth. I'll attach a couple pix of the Fuji.


Ah, gotcha. I'll comment on the pics last.



Porschefan said:


> Yes! I feel like I'm finally on the right track! Sometimes we noobs take a few left turns before we start following your advice!


That's the beauty of the forum. We all have slightly different takes on things. Sometimes, something someone suggests just clicks.



Porschefan said:


> I forgot to mention in the original post that Trek has a 30-day exchange policy. Full value can be applied to another bike, which is definitely a nice peace-of-mind factor. Protects against making some terrible mistake. Of course it also encourages instant "upgrade-itis."


That's not quite what I was referring to. As you say, that's Treks way of having someone upgrade, or, keeping them in the Trek family. I'd still ask the LBS about a return policy, if you're interested.. 



Porschefan said:


> I'm scheduled for my first session with P2M Cycling guys tomorrow and am thinking about going and getting the demo Domane and taking both it and my Fuji there--they are also bike-fitters. But realistically I'm now fighting my own enthusiasm for the Domane as well as the high probability that the Fuji will never be tweaked to the same comfort level. Another 20 lbs and improved fitness level down the road that might not be true, life is short and it would be fun to have a bike that puts a smile on my face when I ride it.


Well put. Shows how a bike purchase is both pragmatic and emotional. It has to fit and feel right, has to suite your intended uses, has to be geared correctly, but you also have to _like_ it. 



Porschefan said:


> I may also go to the local Spesh shop and see what they have. I feel some loyalty to them for their help so far. But I'm also very pleased with the effort the Trek guys have put into me so far.


No harm in branching out some and test riding some other bikes. You may still go back to the Domane, with a bit more experience under your belt.

Re: the pics, No surprise with the Fuji. Max spacers, flipped up stem and still a fair amount of saddle to bar drop. 

The Domane is a bit of a surprise, because it looks like the bars are higher than the saddle. My only concern with that is that once you start building saddle time, there will be a fair amount of rearward weight, possibly causing lower back pain. Might be a good reason for the P2M guys to have a look, but I'd also discuss it with your fitter at the LBS.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Arghhhhh...!!*

Hi PJ,

Funny, as I was reading your response to my latest pix, I was lying in bed with a terrible lower-back pain! Started noticing it last night and it's worse today. And while I occasionally experience a little of this, it's not chronic or regular. Now I'm wondering if my 30-minutes riding around with a seat lower than the bars contributed. Rats.

Looking at the pic myself I can totally see what you mean--but I would never have noticed it otherwise, being focused on good the test ride felt. 

I'm guessing that IF that seat height is set correctly, relative to leg length to the pedals, then those high bars will never really be able to adjusted for a proper riding position for someone with the minimal fitness/flexibility requirements? My faith in the Trek guys is certainly shaken if this is something obvious to someone like yourself.


I'm also wondering whether my current physical condition/flexibility is so terrible that there just may not be any bike, short of a recreational hybrid that is actually "right" for me.

I'm taking the Fuji to P2M tomorrow and get their advice. At this point I REALLY don't trust that either the Trek or Specialized shops have the kind of expertise required to recommend a proper bike *and/or* the willingness to tell me the truth about the limits my condition impose on getting ANY suitable bike at the present time. I see LOTS of guys riding around here (ABQ is a BIG bike town) who are (apparently) in way worse shape than I, so I don't know what gives. P2M doesn't sell bikes and they do provide fitting services to a lot of very good riders--so no financial interest in selling me a bike. At this point I'd rather put up with the uncomfortableness of the Fuji than get something that feels great--until I wake up the next day unable to move!

All that said, I'm super glad I went down and took that pic and _really appreciate_ your being forthright about what you see. And I'm glad I'm a least a little cautious and didn't plunk down my $1,600 already.

I'm totally willing to work towards the goal of getting better/fitter. I'm even willing to ponder the possibility that for whatever reason I don't have "the right stuff" for biking, at least right now. But I am really shocked the Trek guys wouldn't say anything about this and would happily sell me a bike with a dead-end fit and a lot of possible back pain before realizing it! :mad2: 

Rant over....except for again, arghhh and double arghhh!!! 

STP


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I may not have been clear, but I think you're misreading my comments re: the Domane's bars being higher than the saddle. 

Because of angles when taken, pics can deceive, so _it appears _that the bars may be higher, but in actuality, they may not be. This is why I suggested discussing it with your LBS fitter as well as the P2M guys. I just wanted to give you a heads up to be aware of it.

There could be any number of reasons for your current lower back pain. A 30 minute ride on a new bike could be one, acclimation (or re-acclimation) to road riding, another. So I wouldn't be too hard on the fitter - at least not yet. 

Take one step at a time, and don't let this deflate or derail you. You're on the right track here. Just give it some time to play out.

EDIT: BTW, if there is an issue, I don't think it's a saddle height issue. Your knees would likely be telling you so. And don't fret about minor adjustments to bar height. It's generally easier to lower the bars than raise them. As I said, let this play out and see what your options are.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks PJ. I'm off to P2M (with the Fuji) and I'll let you know what they say. This could be just a confluence of unrelated events. Moving ahead.

STP


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

*Update/apology*

Hi PJ (and anyone else who has followed this),

First I feel I must apologize for my intemperate earlier posting. Very much an over-reaction to a perfectly reasonable and quite helpful heads-up on a _possible_ issue. Sorry for being a d-bag, and I hope it doesn't discourage future advice!


*P2M/Andy's Takes on These Bikes: Fuji, Domane, Bianchi, Madone*

My initial session at P2M was just what I needed. First Andy looked over the Fuji and we spent about 20 minutes discussing the various bikes I had been looking/looked at: the 57 Bianchi Sempre, the 56 Madone 5.2, the Domane 4.0 and Synapse 105. His assessment of the Fuji: not ideal, but could be tweaked to a point where it wouldn't be a huge detriment to ride--cost involved: a $90 fitting and a new stem. Possibly a better seat. On the Domane: he's ridden them and likes them, to the point where they would be on his list to consider if he needed a new bike. He has a Madone that he bought because he used to race 10-12X/year and at the time of purchase the stiffer frame and quicker handling were what he wanted. On the Domane seat-height issue, he also thought I was probably mistaken about the seat height possibly being too low and didn't think there would be any problem at all dialing in a real good fit on a properly sized Domane. He explained a lot about how he does a fitting and I'm looking forward to having him tweak whatever I get.

(BTW, "P2M" stands for "Power to Measure." I thought it might be "Pedal to the Metal"...oops.

*Checking out a Spesh Roubaix (and a Fat Boy!)*

After my first Computrainer session (I'll post another thread about that and the training plan), I went over to the Specialized store to check out a Roubaix. They had only one in my size in stock and I gave it a test ride. It felt "OK"--better than the Fuji, but didn't appeal nearly as much as the Domane. I would say it was 3rd behind the Domane and the Synapse. The Roubaix had a Sora build, but was still $300 MORE than the on-sale Domane. It had the popular matte-black finish, which you see a lot these days, but that didn't appeal much either. So overall, the Domane is a clear winner (for me). 

While at the Spesh store I met one of their newer, young employees who was very pleasant and helpful. He invited me to try out one of the new Specialized "Fat Bikes," so he accompanied me on a mountain bike and around the neighborhood on the "Fat Boy" (IIRC). Lots of fun--they certainly ride a lot easier than they look like they would and aside from probably being great on snow or sand, they're fun to just noodle around on.

*Re-Test the Domane and Pick Up a Demo Bike*

Then back to the Trek store to re-check the Domane. First thing I did was to check the seat height, and you are right, PJ, the original pic was a bad angle. The seat is definitely higher than the bars--not a whole lot, but for sure it is. There is also a lot of adjustability on the bars. A full complement of spacers are on the bike, the bars themselves have some kind of adjustable tilt; and, of course, the stem can be replaced or flipped. I took one more test ride on the 4.0 to make sure my original perception hadn't changed. It hadn't. The bike felt really _*great*_ once again. I guess it's just one of those personal things--this particular bike just felt _*obviously *_ better to me. And I guess that the whole point of all these kinds of threads--ride 'em till you find one that talks to you! 

I had them set up their demo Domane (a 5.2 model with Ultegra gear) and have rented that for a day. I'll take that back to Andy at P2M in the AM and let him give it the once over. I suspect he'll have no objections. If all goes well, I'll be getting the 4.0 soon. And if not, I've gotten a heck of a lot of info/experience for $50.

So I'm stoked once again (please no remarks about bi-polar disorder!). Again, my apologies for the previous panic-attack.

Pix to come.

STP


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Try a +17 degree stem on the Fuji. You can go to +35 if that's not enough, and without getting into weird adapters or anything.

Whether you decide to get a fancier bike or not, I think getting the Fuji dialed in can only help. And, you may find you want it to ride to work or something.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Hi PJ (and anyone else who has followed this),
> 
> First I feel I must apologize for my intemperate earlier posting. Very much an over-reaction to a perfectly reasonable and quite helpful heads-up on a _possible_ issue. Sorry for being a d-bag, and I hope it doesn't discourage future advice!


No apologies necessary on my account. Bike purchases can be fun, but they can also be frustrating, at times. Important thing is, you're back on track and doing fine. 



Porschefan said:


> *P2M/Andy's Takes on These Bikes: Fuji, Domane, Bianchi, Madone*
> 
> My initial session at P2M was just what I needed. First Andy looked over the Fuji and we spent about 20 minutes discussing the various bikes I had been looking/looked at: the 57 Bianchi Sempre, the 56 Madone 5.2, the Domane 4.0 and Synapse 105. His assessment of the Fuji: not ideal, but could be tweaked to a point where it wouldn't be a huge detriment to ride--cost involved: a $90 fitting and a new stem. Possibly a better seat. On the Domane: he's ridden them and likes them, to the point where they would be on his list to consider if he needed a new bike. He has a Madone that he bought because he used to race 10-12X/year and at the time of purchase the stiffer frame and quicker handling were what he wanted. On the Domane seat-height issue, he also thought I was probably mistaken about the seat height possibly being too low and didn't think there would be any problem at all dialing in a real good fit on a properly sized Domane. He explained a lot about how he does a fitting and I'm looking forward to having him tweak whatever I get.
> 
> (BTW, "P2M" stands for "Power to Measure." I thought it might be "Pedal to the Metal"...oops.


No real surprises here. I think Andy would be a good resource for you when you purchase that next bike, possibly working in conjunction with your LBS fitter. Just don't be surprised if they offer different things. Oftentimes, that's the way fittings go. 



Porschefan said:


> *Checking out a Spesh Roubaix (and a Fat Boy!)*
> 
> After my first Computrainer session (I'll post another thread about that and the training plan), I went over to the Specialized store to check out a Roubaix. They had only one in my size in stock and I gave it a test ride. It felt "OK"--better than the Fuji, but didn't appeal nearly as much as the Domane. I would say it was 3rd behind the Domane and the Synapse. The Roubaix had a Sora build, but was still $300 MORE than the on-sale Domane. It had the popular matte-black finish, which you see a lot these days, but that didn't appeal much either. So overall, the Domane is a clear winner (for me).
> 
> While at the Spesh store I met one of their newer, young employees who was very pleasant and helpful. He invited me to try out one of the new Specialized "Fat Bikes," so he accompanied me on a mountain bike and around the neighborhood on the "Fat Boy" (IIRC). Lots of fun--they certainly ride a lot easier than they look like they would and aside from probably being great on snow or sand, they're fun to just noodle around on.


IMO it was still time well spent. At least now you've experienced another bike and are opting to go back to the Domane, so it affirms you genuinely like it.



Porschefan said:


> *Re-Test the Domane and Pick Up a Demo Bike*
> 
> Then back to the Trek store to re-check the Domane. First thing I did was to check the seat height, and you are right, PJ, the original pic was a bad angle. The seat is definitely higher than the bars--not a whole lot, but for sure it is. There is also a lot of adjustability on the bars. A full complement of spacers are on the bike, the bars themselves have some kind of adjustable tilt; and, of course, the stem can be replaced or flipped. I took one more test ride on the 4.0 to make sure my original perception hadn't changed. It hadn't. The bike felt really _*great*_ once again. I guess it's just one of those personal things--this particular bike just felt _*obviously *_ better to me. And I guess that the whole point of all these kinds of threads--*ride 'em till you find one that talks to you!
> *


Absolutely! :thumbsup:



Porschefan said:


> I had them set up their demo Domane (a 5.2 model with Ultegra gear) and have rented that for a day. I'll take that back to Andy at P2M in the AM and let him give it the once over. I suspect he'll have no objections. If all goes well, I'll be getting the 4.0 soon. And if not, I've gotten a heck of a lot of info/experience for $50.
> Pix to come.
> 
> STP


Sounds good. Keep us updated on your progress.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

Update.

I took the demo Domane to P2M/Andy and we set it up on the trainer. He did a preliminary check to make sure that we could dial it in. He has a stem gizmo that you can clamp on and play with all sorts of lengths and angles.

He gave it a thumbs up and said to ask Trek to swap the 100mm stem for a 90. They won't do it, but buying a new one won't be super-expensive.

I could tell, even from this quick set of adjustments that he will be able to get it to a point where it would be VERY comfortable.

I'm going to sleep on it another day, but very likely will purchase the Domane 4.0.

Andrew--I'll probably sell the Fuji, but point well taken. Andy had the Fuji feeling better than it had with some seat adjustments. A proper stem would probably make it OK.

Later,
STP


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> Update.
> 
> I took the demo Domane to P2M/Andy and we set it up on the trainer. He did a preliminary check to make sure that we could dial it in. He has a stem gizmo that you can clamp on and play with all sorts of lengths and angles.
> 
> ...


I skimmed thru your posts and *think* the bike you're considering is a 58CM. Is that correct?


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> I skimmed thru your posts and *think* the bike you're considering is a 58CM. Is that correct?


Hi PJ,

Sorry for the long delay--I missed your question until just now.

Yes, it's a 58 cm--and it's no longer being considered--it's in the garage 

I bought the bike last Friday and on Tuesday I took it to P2M for a fitting session before my training session. One nice thing about working with Andy is that, since I'm working with him every week, the fitting process can be extended during the first four month (I think that's what he said). So we dialed in the preliminary stuff last Tuesday and it felt pretty good. Biggest change was the 100 mm stem was swapped for an 80 mm--at least for starts. I bought both an 80 and a 90 from Amazon and most likely will return the 90 mm (Amazon Prime) if the 80 works out. 

My bike riding, for now is limited to 2X per week and I'm up to 40 minutes now. I have a "box" to ride in: cadence ~90 RPM and heart rate no higher than 125. So that means on relatively flat ground I'm usually in the lowest gear, but not always. I'm under strict instructions )) to not push it. There IS a plan...

Today I hooked up my Garmin Edge 500 (eBay find from a while back) and it seems to be working fine--along with my Trek "DuoTrap" built-in speed/cadence sensor--an unnecessary, but nice little accessory. I did my 40-minute ride and it was really nice to see cadence and heart rate and adjust my pedaling to stay within the box.

I also rode the Fuji to yoga class this morning--about 1 mile. It wasn't too bad--with previous adjustments at P2M. As pointed out, the Fuji isn't in the "it'll NEVER work" category. But the Domane is definitely a nicer ride.

I've thought about switching the Shimano wheels, and even the 105 running gear to the new bike, but I don't think it would really be much, if any, of an improvement.

I also did my "inside" training session and fitting using clipless and I hope to be using those on the road soon too.

BTW, today's ride was a BLAST! Even though only 40 minutes on the multi-use trail, I had a great time and felt super afterwords. There is a 16-mile paved multi-use trail here in ABQ that runs along the Rio Grande--so that's in my sights before too long.

That's the news from Lake Woebegone... 

STP


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Have you done testing to figure out your zones?

I ask because I can't walk up a couple flights of stairs without hitting 125, but I don't max out until 206 or so and my LT tests at 188. But other people don't break 200 unless they're having a heart attack. In other words, heart rates alone are pretty subjective, and it doesn't mean anything to me if someone quotes a bare number.

Backing off to 40 minutes a week is hard, but I'm not surprised it's what they're telling you to do. Stay the course. It's pretty amazing how much the gains add up with a measured, disciplined approach.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Porschefan said:


> BTW, today's ride was a BLAST! Even though only 40 minutes on the multi-use trail, I had a great time and felt super afterwords. There is a 16-mile paved multi-use trail here in ABQ that runs along the Rio Grande--so that's in my sights before too long.
> 
> That's the news from Lake Woebegone...
> 
> STP


Congrats on the new bike! I think you made a fine choice, but the above quote is really the bottom line.. that you love riding your new bike and feel good afterwards. That's essentially what's kept me in the saddle for the last 30 years. I hope it works as well for you.

Continue to keep us updated. I'm interested to see how your fit will evolve.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Have you done testing to figure out your zones?
> 
> I ask because I can't walk up a couple flights of stairs without hitting 125, but I don't max out until 206 or so and my LT tests at 188. But other people don't break 200 unless they're having a heart attack. In other words, heart rates alone are pretty subjective, and it doesn't mean anything to me if someone quotes a bare number.


Hi Andrew,

Short answer on testing for maximum heart rate, VO2 max, LT, etc., etc. haven't happened (yet). I haven't gone into all this in detail partly because I have a very limited understanding of the science underlying training. And partly because I figure no one is particularly interested....;-). But since you've asked....let the floodgates open. . 

Due to my previous incident, everyone involved is understandably taking a super-conservative approach. For example, the first really professional trainer I approached basically told me that I really needed to stabilize and improve before she could even think about getting me in a program. That led me to the easy strength (fitness center machines) workouts and some very light walking and bike riding--which helped.

Then I discovered the P2M guys, who, it turns out, are colleagues of the original trainer--although they are really cycling focused and she is more an ultra-marathoner type. Before I even met the first trainer I had read about 100 pages of "Training for the New Alpinism," which deals with the basic physiology of modern training, including heart rate zones. I was just looking for data on how to re-enter the exercise/fitness game. 

Bottom line is I don't think anyone (me included) thinks it's wise to even attempt a max heart rate test at this point--too sketchy and in any case, not really needed yet. I did an echo-cardiogram in the hospital the day after collapsing and they shut it down at 140--because they had the data they needed--I could have done more, but I don't know how much. Andy (P2M) has me on a short leash too, so I'm trying to follow orders and stay in my box.

At my age, I doubt whether my max heart rate will be 200+ again. Maybe 175-185, but who knows? When I first started being active again (a couple months after the collapse) I would definitely feel "shaky" at a HR over 110. That has improved to the point where 125 is doable for 30-40 minutes at a time. In fact 125 just feels like I'm "cruising"--not really pushing it, but definitely some effort. I think (hope) that I'm probably getting into a little Zone 2 (for me).

Bottom line is that I trust Andy knows what he is doing and has a plan that will gradually get me to where I can go and no one knows where that is.

I have checked into the training forum here, but seems like most of the traffic there is pretty advanced. If there were interest, I wouldn't mind postinga "Beginner's" training diary here.

In some ways collapsing on the trail was a really good thing. At my age anyway, I don't think it's a good idea to wing it on this kind of thing and I was TOTALLY unaware of any scientific/logical approach to getting where I need to go. Overall I think it's going to result in a LOT more progress than I could have made on my own. Hope so anyway!



> Backing off to 40 minutes a week is hard, but I'm not surprised it's what they're telling you to do. Stay the course. It's pretty amazing how much the gains add up with a measured, disciplined approach.


Yep! That's the plan. And I can definitely feel the results so far.

STP


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Congrats on the new bike! I think you made a fine choice, but the above quote is really the bottom line.. that you love riding your new bike and feel good afterwards. That's essentially what's kept me in the saddle for the last 30 years. I hope it works as well for you.
> 
> Continue to keep us updated. I'm interested to see how your fit will evolve.


Hi PJ,

Definitely will do. RE the bike, I think I told you Trek has a 30-day "full-exchange" policy, so I'm keeping track of any hot deals on their site. There's a 2014 Domane 4.3 with 105 groupset for $500 more than I paid. I'm going to try for that. I know I like the bike and for $500 I'll get: a 1-year newer (2014 vs. 2013) model, upgraded carbon frame (4.3 vs. 4.0) and the 105 groupset. Pretty much a no-brainer, IMHO. We'll see what they say.

I know this may seem odd, but at this point I think, while certainly not necessary, it would be $500 well spent. All the fittings would basically be the same, so all the basics wouldn't need to be done again.

STP


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Porschefan said:


> Short answer on testing for maximum heart rate, VO2 max, LT, etc., etc. haven't happened (yet). I haven't gone into all this in detail partly because I have a very limited understanding of the science underlying training. And partly because I figure no one is particularly interested....;-). But since you've asked....let the floodgates open. .
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


In some ways, the training forum here is ultimately useless. It's great at describing trees, but until you've got a good concept of the forest, meh.

Funny enough, max HR is about as relevant. Or at least, I've bought into that idea. I got a copy of Friel's Mountain Biker's Training Bible a couple years ago when I wanted to take another shot at putting together a training plan. He argues for finding lactate threshold HR, and basing zones on that. But, he also describes a test that ramps up to set zones. In other words, there are a few ways to skin a cat. It sounds like your trainer has a context for 125, it's not just some random number or a result of that stupid age formula.

For me, breathing through my nose and letting my mind wander is Zone 1. Zone 2 is still conversational, but it's definitely more focused. If you notice you're working, that sounds more like 2 than 1, at least for me. There's some debate about 2 vs. 1, which means they're probably both a great way to approach base or getting back in shape.

I'm not doing so much with it lately, but I've enjoyed learning about training. It scratches my gearhead itch a bit, but in a way that can actually make me faster. Sweet!


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

AndrwSwitch said:


> In some ways, the training forum here is ultimately useless. It's great at describing trees, but until you've got a good concept of the forest, meh.
> 
> Funny enough, max HR is about as relevant. Or at least, I've bought into that idea. I got a copy of Friel's Mountain Biker's Training Bible a couple years ago when I wanted to take another shot at putting together a training plan. He argues for finding lactate threshold HR, and basing zones on that. But, he also describes a test that ramps up to set zones. In other words, there are a few ways to skin a cat. It sounds like your trainer has a context for 125, it's not just some random number or a result of that stupid age formula.
> 
> ...


Hi Andrew,

I agree that any of these measurements outside of a more comprehensive context are kind of meaningless and do take on a kind of buzz-wordy characteristic. And while I'm certainly no expert, I am satisfied that Andy/P2M are professionals, and it's a big help to have someone you trust to provide direction.

I think you would enjoy "_Training for the New Alpinism_," --although it sounds like you know quite a bit about this stuff already. It's a gorgeous book, extremely well-written and lucid explanations, charts, illustrations of all the basics. My understanding is that there is a large volume of basic data that applies to any sport and only when the basics are really in can you start applying sport-specific stuff. I found it fascinating. Lots of good mountaineering stories and pictures too.

So far, I've had a couple of good conversations with Andy while pedaling away on the Computrainer. He's pretty good at keeping me aware of the forest so far. I'll pass on anything that I think might be of value as we go along. In this context I recall he did say that Zone 2 will start triggering an adaptation that will cause the body to start using fat for fuel (instead of carbs/sugars). I'm sure there's more to it than that also.

STP


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## knight511 (Feb 25, 2014)

FWIW, I test rode almost all the same bikes and ended up with a Domane 4.0. To be clear in one of your posts, you thought the 4.3 would be an upgraded frame, it is not. All of the 4 series utilize the same carbon frame if you stay within the brakes styles (disc vs rim). The only upgrades are the components. If the 105 on the new bike is the 11 speed 5800, it may be worth the upgrade. The ONLY thing I dislike about the Tiagra is the set of cables not under the tape. It is a shallow thing, but the rest of the system has served me very well since December.

I plan on arranging time for a more hardcore fit session to tweak the bike a bit now that I am more use to riding on the road. This was my first drop bar bike ever, so it took some getting use to.


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

knight511 said:


> FWIW, I test rode almost all the same bikes and ended up with a Domane 4.0. To be clear in one of your posts, you thought the 4.3 would be an upgraded frame, it is not. All of the 4 series utilize the same carbon frame if you stay within the brakes styles (disc vs rim). The only upgrades are the components. If the 105 on the new bike is the 11 speed 5800, it may be worth the upgrade. The ONLY thing I dislike about the Tiagra is the set of cables not under the tape. It is a shallow thing, but the rest of the system has served me very well since December.
> 
> I plan on arranging time for a more hardcore fit session to tweak the bike a bit now that I am more use to riding on the road. This was my first drop bar bike ever, so it took some getting use to.


Hi--thanks for input. You're right--I wasn't thinking clearly about the 4.0 vs. 4.3 frame differences which are non-existent! I don't know for sure, but I highly suspect the 105 group on the 2014 model is the 5700 series. Would be nice if it were 5800 but I'd be very surprised. As far as I can figure out the only other differences are the 4.3 has a carbon seatpost and a different (better?) handlebar. Since I did make an agreement to do the upgrade, I'm probably stuck with my poor choice, but I'll talk to the Trek manager about it. If it's ANY hassle for them, I'll honor my agreement and be happy about it. I haven't noticed anything bad about the Tiagra group, and from what I've read, it might even have an advantage over the more expensive groups in terms of toughness/durability.

STP


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## Porschefan (Nov 12, 2011)

From the Trek website:

_Upgrades from the Domane 4.1:

Shimano 105 11-speed drivetrain
Shimano RS500 crankset
Bontrager Carbon seatpost
Bontrager Race Blade handlebar_

I can't tell for sure whether this is the 2014 frame, but I think so. If this is the case, I'll definitely go for the upgrade.

STP


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

If you're looking at the Trek site today, you're seeing 2015 bikes. 2014 4.3 has 5700, 10 spd



Porschefan said:


> From the Trek website:
> 
> _Upgrades from the Domane 4.1:
> 
> ...


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