# Do disc brakes belong in the pro peloton?



## jsumner303

Le Tour is over, but this debate is just getting started. Analysis: Do disc brakes belong in the pro peloton? | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

Thoughts? Lots of pros -- and cons.


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## BikeLayne

Just whatever Pro Cycling wants is fine with me. For myself I have not had any issues with brakes over the years so I am happy with my regular brakes.


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## vic bastige

They are coming with absolute certainty. Why? the bike and wheel companies want it for one. I have 2 road bikes. One with discs (Volagi) and one without (Bianchi Infinito CV). The braking on the Volagi kills the Bianchi. If it is wet or downhill, I prefer disc. Flat group ride in good weather? Makes no never mind....But they are coming.


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## Wookiebiker

They have a time and a place ... but not all the time in all places.

In the pro ranks, I see this happening ... Two bikes, one for dry races the other for wet races. Same frame, geometry, components, etc. just different brakes (much like the new Tarmac). When it's wet they will use the bike with disc brakes, when it's dry, they will use the rim brake equipped bike.

My commuter has disc brakes and I wouldn't want rim brakes for year round commuting in the Pacific NW ... Discs just work so much better in the wet it's not even close. However, in the summer, there is virtually no difference and I actually prefer the rim brakes over the disc brakes ... even on my carbon clincher rims.

For the general public ... disc brakes make sense if they are only going to use one bike year round (assuming they ride in the rain, which most don't). Most will end up owing two bikes in the end if they are serious cyclists ... one for the wet and one for the dry, much like what the pro's will do.

So ... Yes ... they do have a place in the peloton, it will just be based on the weather.


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## crit_boy

Wookiebiker said:


> In the pro ranks, I see this happening ... Two bikes, one for dry races the other for wet races. Same frame, geometry, components, etc. just different brakes (much like the new Tarmac). When it's wet they will use the bike with disc brakes, when it's dry, they will use the rim brake equipped bike.


I can foresee this too. I don't know what the UCI rules are. . . but with the difficulties in the rain stages in this years tour, I could see disc brakes coming sooner than later on rainy race days.


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## Retro Grouch

crit_boy said:


> I can foresee this too. I don't know what the UCI rules are. . . but with the difficulties in the rain stages in this years tour, I could see disc brakes coming sooner than later on rainy race days.


What about in between days when rain and sunshine are nearly in equal parts?

I doubt the race director will allow a mix of rim and disc breaks in the peleton. Compound this with the mechanics and support staff having to accommodate this.

Wheel changes and break adjustments would be a total joy too.


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## crit_boy

Retro Grouch said:


> I doubt the race director will allow a mix of rim and disc breaks in the peleton. Compound this with the mechanics and support staff having to accommodate this.
> 
> Wheel changes and break adjustments would be a total joy too.


Not sure why a mix would matter. 

I imagine that pro mechanics can handle wheel changes and brake adjustments. They are after all professional bicycle mechanics working as professional support staff.


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## Retro Grouch

The difference in breaking performance between disc and rim break within the tight confines of the peleton is a disaster in the waiting.

Years ago, use of clip-on bars was popular in the Tour. The consequence was a rash of crashes in the pack. They were eventually made verboten.


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## BikeLayne

Retro Grouch said:


> What about in between days when rain and sunshine are nearly in equal parts?
> 
> I doubt the race director will allow a mix of rim and disc breaks in the peleton. Compound this with the mechanics and support staff having to accommodate this.
> 
> Wheel changes and break adjustments would be a total joy too.


 That is a good point about mixed braking systems. Does Campy have disc brakes? If not do they wait until campy gets around to it?


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## mambo

No point.


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## mikerp

The search function works, there are several threads on this.
Regardless Velo also brought it up, won't be any time soon.
Aero loss, risk of cuts in a pile up, better braking in the rain = better chance of wheel traction loss, slower change outs
I don't see myself having a road bike with rotors in the future, MTB sure.


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## AJL

I don't think it matters because it looks like the bike sponsors want (based on the 'bike tech' clips). I'm sure they won't wind up on TT bikes. Given the numbers of riders, over the years, who have expressed concern about downhill breaking in the wet - I think the riders will appreciate the improvement. Then again, this is the UCI, so who knows how long it will take for them to change.


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## cxwrench

There would have to be an agreement on rotor size, pad size, and the hardest thing...every damn wheel and frame would have to be made so that calipers and rotors were in _EXACTLY_ the same place. Within fractions of a millimeter. 

Then you'd have to figure out a way to increase traction because better brakes alone don't let you stop any better in wet weather, you have to maintain your connection w/ the pavement.


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## Marc

cxwrench said:


> There would have to be an agreement on rotor size, pad size, and the hardest thing...every damn wheel and frame would have to be made so that calipers and rotors were in _EXACTLY_ the same place. Within fractions of a millimeter.
> 
> Then you'd have to figure out a way to increase traction because better brakes alone don't let you stop any better in wet weather, you have to maintain your connection w/ the pavement.


Heh...and then the UCI frame-compliance jig would need an overhaul after 5 months of Robert's Rules of Order committee hell.


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## turk0017

I won't comment on whether it belongs in pro racing or not or even whether it should exist on road bikes or not. What I do know is that the consumer benefit of discs getting approved by UCI is the standardization that would result. At least then you wouldn't need different wheels, calipers, rotors etc for each bike based on different axle type, rotor size etc.


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## Marc

turk0017 said:


> I won't comment on whether it belongs in pro racing or not or even whether it should exist on road bikes or not. What I do know is that the consumer benefit of discs getting approved by UCI is the standardization that would result. At least then you wouldn't need different wheels, calipers, rotors etc for each bike based on different axle type, rotor size etc.


LOL...how did that work in the case of external bottom brackets?


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## dcorn

Can anyone find one example where a rider in a crash was cut by another bike's cassette? Or big chainring? Those things are sharp as hell too, probably worse than discs, when they are flying at you, but I don't see bash guards being implemented to protect the riders. There are a lot of dangerous things out on the roads that can hurt riders in a crash, like barbed wire or the pavement itself, but they don't remove it all so these guys can ride through a town or countryside safely.

Not sure why you can't have a mix of rim and disc brakes. Rim brakes can easily lock up a tire just as fast as a disc. If it's wet, then I guess you should have been riding discs, eh? 


Honestly, it seems to me that people against disc brakes are just thinking up every excuse possible not to have the in the pros, throwing anything at the wall to see if it sticks. At some point you have to embrace the new, better tech, that's what racing is all about. I'm sure everyone had this discussion about carbon bikes assploding all over France as well...


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## turk0017

I thought about that when I was typing it looking for comparisons and thought ...aww sh...t. It did work for Betamax and HD DVD


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## mikerp

dcorn said:


> At some point you have to embrace the new, better tech, that's what racing is all about.


Please explain how it's better, the pros have been descending just fine with caliper rim brakes, have they been holding back on descents because of brakes? Certainly doesn't seem that way as they spin out and tuck for the most part.
As for tech and racing, the rider makes the race not the tech.


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## tlg

I hope they allow disc's ASAP. I can't wait to watch wheel changes. It's going to add a new excitement to race watching.


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## aclinjury

dcorn said:


> *Can anyone find one example where a rider in a crash was cut by another bike's cassette? Or big chainring?* Those things are sharp as hell too, probably worse than discs, when they are flying at you, but I don't see bash guards being implemented to protect the riders. There are a lot of dangerous things out on the roads that can hurt riders in a crash, like barbed wire or the pavement itself, but they don't remove it all so these guys can ride through a town or countryside safely.
> 
> Not sure why you can't have a mix of rim and disc brakes. Rim brakes can easily lock up a tire just as fast as a disc. If it's wet, then I guess you should have been riding discs, eh?
> 
> 
> Honestly, it seems to me that people against disc brakes are just thinking up every excuse possible not to have the in the pros, throwing anything at the wall to see if it sticks. At some point you have to embrace the new, better tech, that's what racing is all about. I'm sure everyone had this discussion about carbon bikes assploding all over France as well...


There are examples out there. 

- About 3-4 few years back there was a post on Mtbr about a guy endo'ing otb-style and had his helmet chopped up by the front rotor. Granted it was a big rotor 203mm he was using. He was saved by his helmet. But if it happened at a higher speed, who knows if the helmet would have been enough. (Sorry I cannot find that post again).

- My buddy once on an mtb downhill descent, slipped his right foot off his pedal (due to worn cleats) and lost control of his bike causing the bike to bound all over the place and the chain to drop. Then his calf hit the big ring (after the chain had dropped from the big ring). That put 7 bloody holes in his calf! 

- I myself have endo'ed in mbt many times. And in a couple times, the bike landed on me with the big ring hitting on the back of my shoulders. But luckily my mtb bike has a bashguard so nothing happened to me. But without bashguard, I'd imagine I'd holes in my shoulder blades too.

- Then also about 2-3 years ago there was a story of a crit racer who had his calf fillet like sushi in a pile up. Apparently one of the racers in the pileup was using a disc equiped crossbike. The pic he posted was a really nasty sight to behold. Think taking a surgeon scapal and running it down your calf. He ended up going to the ER and getting a long line of stiches looking like stuff on Frankenstein. (I have been trying to find that post but google has not come up with it)

- then yet in another post in Mtbr, there was a guy who lost his finger changing his disc brake pads. Apparently he was not mindful of what he was doing and accidentally stuck his finger in a rotating rotor. This happens to me one time too when I was chanping my disc pads on my mtb. Granted, accident happens when you're not mindful or not experience with the working condition. But with sharp rotating object, the consequence is much greater.

I realize the above recounts are not caused by another rider to another rider, but I was just braining storming about my experience with mtb in general and listing the accidents I've seen, experienced, or heard about.

Personally, based on my experience in mtb, based on what I have experienced and seen what can happen when a bike land on top of me, I would not want somebody with disc drafting behind me. And I have on at least 1 occassion waive a drafting rider off because of this (he was too much of a fred and I did not trust his skills). On the dirt, ususally drafting is not an issue since mtb'er usualy don't draft and give each other plenty of space when descending.


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## CliffordK

When someone takes out the whole peloton, I don't think disc brakes would make any difference. There just isn't the reaction time. 

I didn't see many of the rain crashes, but for those riders not involved in the initial accident, they seem to be pretty good at not piling up on the rest of the down riders.

How frequently are the pro riders doing emergency braking? I doubt they're riding the brakes on their descents. In theory, there should be less avoiding cars pulling across their paths than a commuter would have to endure.

Personally I don't see any reason not to allow the disc brakes, but perhaps they need to make a new standard for braking efficiency, both wet and dry, independent on whether rim or disc brakes are used.


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## mikerp

tlg said:


> I hope they allow disc's ASAP. I can't wait to watch wheel changes. It's going to add a new excitement to race watching.


If it happens we will be seeing more bike swaps, it will be faster.


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## il sogno

I'm all for disc brakes in the pro peloton and on my bike ( I don't have 'em). Disc brakes would take the worry out of braking melting tubular tire glue. It would make for safer bikes.


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## CliffordK

mikerp said:


> tlg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they allow disc's ASAP. I can't wait to watch wheel changes. It's going to add a new excitement to race watching.
> 
> 
> 
> If it happens we will be seeing more bike swaps, it will be faster.
Click to expand...

I haven't messed around with the discs too much. But, it should be easy enough to design a "release" similar to what most rim brakes/levers have to give adequate clearance for a quick wheel change. Team wheel sets should be matched up enough to avoid compatibility problems (and shifting problems).

Perhaps I'll have to try a quick change with discs. 

Ok.
Tried an MTB disc. It wasn't too bad. I did slam the disc into the brake pads a little bit. 

It is all an engineering thing. Fix the disc pads so they don't move as easily, and allow them to be opened wider.

It is quite possible they could be designed to allow a quick change of wheels faster than standard wheels. One doesn't have to worry about the tire slamming into the brake callipers.

Perhaps when Campy enters the Disc market, they'll solve some of these issues that slow down the quick change of wheels.


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## tlg

CliffordK said:


> Ok.
> Tried an MTB disc. It wasn't too bad. I did slam the disc into the brake pads a little bit.


 So you took the wheel out, then put it back in?
Try a wheel from another bike. It's quite common for support team mates to give the team GC rider a wheel.
Try a wheel from a neutral support vehicle.



> It is quite possible they could be designed to allow a quick change of wheels faster than standard wheels.


Quick change isn't so much the issue as alignment. Getting all those rotors, calipers, and pads to be identically lined up among 400-500 bikes... that's the challenge.


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## CliffordK

tlg said:


> Quick change isn't so much the issue as alignment. Getting all those rotors, calipers, and pads to be identically lined up among 400-500 bikes... that's the challenge.


Each team has 8 riders in the TDF. How many spare bikes? A dozen? Perhaps an additional spare set of wheels for each rider. Do riders choose specific tires or cassettes? Flat vs hill wheels?

It appeared to me as if the team frames were virtually identical. Perhaps some taller and shorter ones, but most were short. 

Start with identical "quality" hubs, with identical spacers, and I can't imagine the spacing would be off that much. 

To get the derailleurs adjusted properly, they already have to have very similarly matched wheels. It isn't like many casual riders where nothing quite matches, and if one has spares, one hardly has two identical parts.


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## Local Hero

Do pros care about weight/aero penalties?


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## CliffordK

The biggest risk is that if a team goes mixed rim & disc brakes.... someone will eventually put a rim brake wheel onto a disc brake bike.

Oh, I see your issue, sharing wheels across teams. Yes, that would be an issue that they would have to deal with. Again, if they are generally brand and model loyal, it wouldn't be an issue. 

One could, of course, make standards in the race rules. Specify where the cogs on the cassette are supposed to be, and where the disc is supposed to be down to a few microns, and then there wouldn't be any problems. If only the big manufacturers could ever talk to each other.


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## Ridin'Sorra

tlg said:


> Quick change isn't so much the issue as alignment. Getting all those rotors, calipers, and pads to be identically lined up among 400-500 bikes... that's the challenge.


Many people are anal about alignment on disc wheels. Truth is that even if the rotor is zinging or scrapping a bit, it doesn't make you any slower. Disc brakes do not affect as much when rubbing as rim brakes do. They really need to be ridiculously rubbing or you have to apply force to the brake to slow you down.

I see the point of Pro's not being so stoked about it, but in the heat of the moment, they will just get on with it without a second thought.



mikerp said:


> Please explain how it's better, the pros have been descending just fine with caliper rim brakes, have they been holding back on descents because of brakes? Certainly doesn't seem that way as they spin out and tuck for the most part.
> As for tech and racing, the rider makes the race not the tech.


F1 drivers, Motorcycle riders and MTB'ers were riding drum/rim brakes before discs without holding back. That doesn't make rims brakes as good as discs.

Try disc brakes in the wet, you will see the difference.


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## Local Hero

is wheelsharing across teams an issue with campy/shramano?


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## 55x11

Cons: considerably less aero. Overall heavier (esp. for non-carbon wheels). Wheel changes are more difficult. Difficult to properly configure or to service. More crashes if some riders use disk brakes while others go for rim brakes.

Pros: bike industry gets to sell more bikes - new frames, new wheels, new brakes etc. More service charges for bikeshops too. Better wet weather braking performance for carbon wheels (and as we all know, EVERYONE should be riding carbon wheels). Also, let's not forget, you get to brake 0.2 seconds later if you feel adventurous coming hot into a sharp corner.


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## SwiftSolo

There is so much nonsense surrounding this subject that educated opinions will be scarce.

First, we are only talking about hydro disc brakes for the pros so we can eliminate discussion about mechanical discs. They are two different animals. Also, my knowledge and opinion is limited to the Shimano hydro discs. I have avid mechanicals on my mountain bike (soon to be replaced with hydro)

Note: I have a Tarmac s-works sl3 with Zipp 303's and campy record levers/eebrakes (rim brakes). I also have a Cannondale Synapse Hi-mod hydro disc di2 (Enve disc wheels). I just returned from Italy and 14 days of riding/climbing that included Pordoi, Stelveo, Gavia and several others on the Cannondale. 

Let me start by saying that talk about Shimano hydro discs being superior only in the rain is complete BS, in my opinion. They simply out perform the rim brakes on my sl3 and my previous bikes by a wide margin in both conditions. The ability to charge into hairpins harder and kill speed faster with complete predictability will change and improve the downhills in the mountain stages of the tours. The better modulation and control will improve safety. Elimination of all cables will improve reliability. 

The current evolution to wider rims and tires with less tire pressure could not have happened at a better time for hydro disc brakes. Discs can and do take advantage of the improved/larger contact patch.

Incidentally, from what I understand, Cannondale and Specialized are both selling out of their high end hydro disc bikes at a far faster pace than either anticipated. It appears that the market is ahead of the pros in this instance. 



jsumner303 said:


> Le Tour is over, but this debate is just getting started. Analysis: Do disc brakes belong in the pro peloton? | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos
> 
> Thoughts? Lots of pros -- and cons.


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## Retro Grouch

SwiftSolo said:


> There is so much nonsense surrounding this subject that educated opinions will be scarce.
> First, we are only talking about hydro disc brakes for the pros so we can eliminate discussion about mechanical discs.


Has the UCI decided to only adopt mechanical versus hydraulic discs? Can you say this for a fact when there hasn't been the decision made to allow disc brakes in the first place?



SwiftSolo said:


> Elimination of all cables will improve reliability.


You are only trading the potential of a broken cable with a hydraulic system leak. It is possible for a rider to crash then get back on the bike and find out at the worst time he has lost fluid and comprmised his breaking ability. Farfetched, but not impossible.



SwiftSolo said:


> Incidentally, from what I understand, Cannondale and Specialized are both selling out of their high end hydro disc bikes at a far faster pace than either anticipated. It appears that the market is ahead of the pros in this instance.


These are not pros. Just cycling enthusiasts with a desire for the newest innovation.


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## Gnarly 928

And with discs on all the bikes, we'll soon be seeing anti lock braking. Hooked into the shifter brain, or a whole new electronic brain to control the wheels in braking and maybe even in shifting.
The technology certainly exists to adapt an ABS function to disc braked bikes....No more Beloki-style spin outs...and then we pedal bikes, we can race into corners like Moto GP....just stuff it in at a silly fast speed and let the computer control your traction...


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## T K

Gnarly 928 said:


> And with discs on all the bikes, we'll soon be seeing anti lock braking. Hooked into the shifter brain, or a whole new electronic brain to control the wheels in braking and maybe even in shifting.
> The technology certainly exists to adapt an ABS function to disc braked bikes....No more Beloki-style spin outs...and then we pedal bikes, we can race into corners like Moto GP....just stuff it in at a silly fast speed and let the computer control your traction...


Jeez, while we're at it, why don't we just put motors in them and we can finally get rid of those out of date pedals? Pedaling is so yesterday's technology.


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## Maximus_XXIV

55x11 said:


> Cons: considerably less aero. Overall heavier (esp. for non-carbon wheels). Wheel changes are more difficult. Difficult to properly configure or to service. More crashes if some riders use disk brakes while others go for rim brakes.
> 
> Pros: bike industry gets to sell more bikes - new frames, new wheels, new brakes etc. More service charges for bikeshops too. Better wet weather braking performance for carbon wheels (and as we all know, EVERYONE should be riding carbon wheels). Also, let's not forget, you get to brake 0.2 seconds later if you feel adventurous coming hot into a sharp corner.


Do you have data to back up your aero claims?

Why would pro mechanics have a lot more difficulty with them? Mountain bikes have had them for years but I see no complaints.


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## Maximus_XXIV

T K said:


> Jeez, while we're at it, why don't we just put motors in them and we can finally get rid of those out of date pedals? Pedaling is so yesterday's technology.


You are right, all this crazy technology is too much. We need to go back to single speeds with spoon brakes and filet brazed steel frames. We should probably ban all training techniques not used before 1912.


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## Retro Grouch

Maximus_XXIV said:


> You are right, all this crazy technology is too much. We need to go back to single speeds with spoon brakes and filet brazed steel frames. We should probably ban all training techniques not used before 1912.


Don't forget wool jerseys, clips-n-straps and smokes for all riders


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## CliffordK

The biggest advantage of hydraulic over mechanical is to tie the front and rear brakes together, then proportionally allocate braking based on estimated wheel traction, something that I don't believe is being done at the moment. Otherwise cables are simple and effective, and could share a lot of equipment with existing systems.


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## MoPho

55x11 said:


> Cons: considerably less aero.


If everyone is running disc brakes, then everyone has the same "aero disadvantage" 
As it stands now, some people ride aero frames and others don't and since aero frames are not dominating the races it would seem there is very little aero advantage to be gained in a peloton anyway



> Overall heavier (esp. for non-carbon wheels)


.

Well then they won't have to add ballast to meet the minimum weight



> Wheel changes are more difficult.


I've never had trouble getting wheels on my mountain bike, might be different under pressure of a road race, but perhaps it will add some drama to the races



> Difficult to properly configure or to service.


A pro mechanic should not have such issues



> More crashes if some riders use disk brakes while others go for rim brakes.


As per the article, it would be likely that everyone would have to be on disc





> Pros: Also, let's not forget, you get to brake 0.2 seconds later if you feel adventurous coming hot into a sharp corner.


Or in an emergency stop situation


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## mikerp

CliffordK said:


> Each team has 8 riders in the TDF.


Actually they have 9, this mistake on your part just sets the theme for the rest of the post.


CliffordK said:


> It appeared to me as if the team frames were virtually identical. Perhaps some taller and shorter ones, but most were short.


Your telling me you have an eye for sizing up frames on TV? Here again you came up with 2 sized Short and Tall.

Clifford do you actually have a Roadbike with discs, have you built up serviced a bike with discs?


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## mikerp

Ridin'Sorra said:


> F1 drivers, Motorcycle riders and MTB'ers were riding drum/rim brakes before discs without holding back. That doesn't make rims brakes as good as discs.


Apples to Oranges,


Ridin'Sorra said:


> Try disc brakes in the wet, you will see the difference.


Has anyone disputed the disk has more stopping power (especially in the rain)? No
The point was, the Pro go downhill top out with the brakes they have now, discs won't speed them up.


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## Coolhand

in 3 years people will be laughing that this was ever a question


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## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> is wheelsharing across teams an issue with campy/shramano?


Cadel '09 Vuelta. Riding Campy 11sp before it was widely available. That wheel change cost him considerably.


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## tlg

Local Hero said:


> is wheelsharing across teams an issue with campy/shramano?


Neutral support vehicle supplies wheels to anyone.


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## Marc

Coolhand said:


> in 3 years people will be laughing that this was ever a question


Or the UCI will ban them.

Admit it, that is the kind of thing the UCI would do


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## Retro Grouch

tlg said:


> Neutral support vehicle supplies wheels to anyone.


Hence, "Neutral support."

Looking at the Mavic website, I didn't really see anything in terms of road disc wheelsets. I assume they are at least in development at this stage.

Right now, that little yellow Mavic wagon's wheel racks would look pretty bare if the switch to discs were made today.


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## BikeLayne

I have not seen how a disc bike looks with fenders. Can you have both or does the disc brake components use up the space for fender mounts? Since I use fenders in the winter I am curious.


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## tlg

BikeLayne said:


> I have not seen how a disc bike looks with fenders. Can you have both or does the disc brake components use up the space for fender mounts? Since I use fenders in the winter I am curious.


Let me google that for you


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## aclinjury

Local Hero said:


> Do pros care about weight/aero penalties?


Well there is also the discussion of the UCI dropping the minimum weight of 14.99 lbs. A 15-lb bike at the top pro level is ridiculously heavy and out of date with the current time. If Trek can release an Emonda at 10.25 lbs,.. if highly motivated enthusiasts can build a bike weighing less than 10 lbs... then there is no reason why a "pro" level bike is mandated with a 15-lb mininum. At the very least, the weight mininum should be dropped to 12 lbs, if not 10 lbs.

I say drop the minimum weight to 10 lbs, and let the riders decide if they want rim or disc.


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## aclinjury

MoPho said:


> If everyone is running disc brakes, then everyone has the same "aero disadvantage"
> As it stands now, some people ride aero frames and others don't and since aero frames are not dominating the races it would seem there is very little aero advantage to be gained in a peloton anyway
> 
> .
> 
> *Well then they won't have to add ballast to meet the minimum weight*
> 
> 
> 
> I've never had trouble getting wheels on my mountain bike, might be different under pressure of a road race, but perhaps it will add some drama to the races
> 
> 
> 
> A pro mechanic should not have such issues
> 
> 
> 
> As per the article, it would be likely that everyone would have to be on disc
> 
> Or in an emergency stop situation



The minimum weight could and probably will change soon. A 15-lb minimum is crippling to technological advancement at this level. I think it's a little funny to see that one could build a 13-lb bike using almost all Chinese ebay frame and parts and wheels, yet the top-tier pro level equipment is mandated with a 15-lb mininum. It's akin to mandating that Formula 1 cars have a 3000-lb minimum.

I say drop the mininum weight to 10 lbs, and let the riders decide if they want rim or disc. Let the technologists and engineers duke it out on the battlefronts of weight, aero, and braking. In a world where already skinny guys will pretty will do anything to drop a measely 2 pounds before a race,.. where guys will kill to gain that extra 10W,.. when face with such decision, I'll bet they will need to think hard if they want disc or rim brakes.


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## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> The minimum weight could and probably will change soon. A 15-lb minimum is crippling to technological advancement at this level. I think it's a little funny to see that one could build a 13-lb bike using almost all Chinese ebay frame and parts and wheels, yet the top-tier pro level equipment is mandated with a 15-lb mininum. * It's akin to mandating that Formula 1 cars have a 3000-lb minimum.*
> 
> I say drop the mininum weight to 10 lbs, and let the riders decide if they want rim or disc. Let the technologists and engineers duke it out on the battlefronts of weight, aero, and braking. In a world where already skinny guys will pretty will do anything to drop a measely 2 pounds before a race,.. where guys will kill to gain that extra 10W,.. when face with such decision, I'll bet they will need to think hard if they want disc or rim brakes.




The minimum weight isn't crippling such advancement, the new Trek and the fact they add ballast to most of the race bikes is proof of that. There is a consumer driven market for light bikes

And there is a minimum weight in F1 that requires teams to add up to 150kg of ballast, your analogy is not fitting

While F1 might get people abuzz with it's speed and technology, it has become a race of budgets more than anything. Anyone who is into motorsports knows the "best" racing is in the spec series where everyone has similar machines. Cycling is more race against man than machine, I am in favor of the weight limit. 
If anything I would like to see them relax the triangle frame rule so we can have some more interesting bike designs again. 

Regardless, it is moot as it has been noted that if disc brakes were to happen it would be mandated across the board, so no one would be at a weight "disadvantage" for using disc

.


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## aclinjury

MoPho said:


> The minimum weight isn't crippling such advancement, the new Trek and the fact they add ballast to most of the race bikes is proof of that. There is a consumer driven market for light bikes
> 
> And there is a minimum weight in F1 that requires teams to add up to 150kg of ballast, your analogy is not fitting
> 
> While F1 might get people abuzz with it's speed and technology, it has become a race of budgets more than anything. Anyone who is into motorsports knows the "best" racing is in the spec series where everyone has similar machines. Cycling is more race against man than machine, I am in favor of the weight limit.
> If anything I would like to see them relax the triangle frame rule so we can have some more interesting bike designs again.
> 
> Regardless, it is moot as it has been noted that if disc brakes were to happen it would be mandated across the board, so no one would be at a weight "disadvantage" for using disc
> 
> .


15-lb is not crippling? Can you name me a sport where top tier pros are using equipment that are mandated to be heavier than say a piece of equipment built on cheap chinese ebay parts? There isn't one sport I can think of for maybe perhaps Nascar (but we all know Nascar isn't really about technology as it's about spectacle).

You mention spec series motorsport as being exciting. Nascar is well speced, does it look exciting to you? In motorcycle racing, WSBK is more speced compared to MotoGP, yes. If "exciting" to you means watching a bunch of tier2 racers racing with a bunch of tier2 machine, then I can't argue with that. Meanwhile. MotoGP has the best riders and the best equipment. I want to see MotoGP, not WSBK, not BSB, and certainly not AMA.

I'm too in favor of a minimum weight, just not at 15-lb, when a layman can build a lighter bike for a cheaper price. That doesn't sound like advancement to me.

Now why am I not surprised that a person advocating disc is in favor of keeping the 15-lb limit all of the sudden? Perhaps is this because a rim bike can be made much lighter and more aero than a disc-equiped bike? Like I said, let the skinny riders looking to lose 2 pounds and gain 10W decide.

But I have this question for you. If you're truely in favor of a weight limit, then why not bump it up to 20 lbs so that makers of aluminum and steel bikes can also have an fair chance to compete on the world's largest stage? After all, 20 lbs cannot be regarded as crippling to racing the tour since racers of the past used to use them just fine.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Not sure where you're coming from on this. Disc brake calipers / discs have had little trouble with location interchangability on mountain bikes for some time. There is no doubt that rotor size will likely be standardized, but I'm not clear on your issue with brake pads? There is little doubt that everyone will need to change over at the same time. 

Clearly there is a limitation on braking related to contact patch, however, modulation plays a large role (look at the impact of discs and ABS on wet braking in autos). Rim brakes take a revolution or two to dry out and even after that they continue to change effectiveness/power for the next several revolutions. There is no certainty about the amount of grit mixed with the water when you first pull them on and that changes with each effort. These issues are substantially mitigated with hydro discs, and because they are self adjusting, lever location at engagement remains the same regardless of wear and moisture.

In the end, the change to hydro discs will happen soon with both pros and avid cyclists. Five years from now this discussion will be placed in the archives alongside the debate on the merits of indexed shifting on the brake levers.


cxwrench said:


> There would have to be an agreement on rotor size, pad size, and the hardest thing...every damn wheel and frame would have to be made so that calipers and rotors were in _EXACTLY_ the same place. Within fractions of a millimeter.
> 
> Then you'd have to figure out a way to increase traction because better brakes alone don't let you stop any better in wet weather, you have to maintain your connection w/ the pavement.


----------



## CliffordK

aclinjury said:


> 15-lb is not crippling? Can you name me a sport where top tier pros are using equipment that are mandated to be heavier than say a piece of equipment built on cheap chinese ebay parts? There isn't one sport I can think of for maybe perhaps Nascar (but we all know Nascar isn't really about technology as it's about spectacle).


A 15 pound bike is still a pretty light bike.

If most riders are now riding on a 15 pound bike, then what is wrong with a sport in which most riders use the same basic equipment, and one differentiates the winners from the loosers based on the athletic abilities of the competitors not the size of their pocketbook.


----------



## aclinjury

SwiftSolo said:


> Not sure where you're coming from on this. *Disc brake calipers / discs have had little trouble with location interchangability on mountain bikes for some time*. There is no doubt that rotor size will likely be standardized, but I'm not clear on your issue with brake pads? There is little doubt that everyone will need to change over at the same time.
> 
> Clearly there is a limitation on braking related to contact patch, however, modulation plays a large role (look at the impact of discs and ABS on wet braking in autos). Rim brakes take a revolution or two to dry out and even after that they continue to change effectiveness/power for the next several revolutions. There is no certainty about the amount of grit mixed with the water when you first pull them on and that changes with each effort. These issues are substantially mitigated with hydro discs, and because they are self adjusting, lever location at engagement remains the same regardless of wear and moisture.
> 
> In the end, the change to hydro discs will happen soon with both pros and avid cyclists. Five years from now this discussion will be placed in the archives alongside the debate on the merits of indexed shifting on the brake levers.


This is not true at all. Let's say you take a Shimano 180mm disc equiped wheel and try to mount it on a bike Magura caliper system, the two don't play nice if the Magura system was designed for 185mm rotor. 

But let's assume that both Shimano and Magura do have 180mm rotors, then in many case, you would most likely need to shim the Magura calipers, and possibly change the brake pad material to match the rotor material of the Shimano. Now you may say, just use the same Magura pads on the Shimano rotor, well the problem with this is that the braking performance might not be optimal since Shimano rotor shape was designed to optimally bind with the shape of the Shimano pads, not Magura pads. And then there is pad-rotor material interface. Wrongly match material-material interface will give you a very noisy and unoptimal system once the pads/rotor heat up.

So you would also need both Shimano and Magura to agree on, say, standarizing their rotors at a specific size. Last I check in the mbt world, you disc rotor vary in sizes quite a bit, eg, one manufacture would have a disc at 180mm, while another would have an equivalent disc at 185mm, or one would make a 200mm disc while another would make a 203mm disc. They're all over the place, not nicely bundled up like you put it. 

So if disc were to happen at the pro level, major standarization on both disc size material (of both rotors and pads) would have to be standarized to a degree much higher than you see in the mtb world.

I've been in the mtb long enough to know this, so I'm not just conjecturing theories.


----------



## aclinjury

CliffordK said:


> A 15 pound bike is still a pretty light bike.
> 
> If most riders are now riding on a 15 pound bike, then what is wrong with a sport in which most riders use the same basic equipment, and one differentiates the winners from the loosers based on the athletic abilities of the competitors not the size of their pocketbook.


See, here you are back peddaling to support the current weight specification of 15 lbs as being pretty light. No surprise that you are an advocate of disc and their heavier and less aero system. But your argument of 15-lb as being "pretty light" and balanced enough to accomodate both technology improvement and riders' ability is only your point of view. If you truely want to see riders' ability, then raise the weight mininum to 20 lbs, and we will then be able to see the best riders winning on both carbon and steel bike. I'm a "steel is real" guy, and I wish to see steel back in the peloton, but the 15-lb limit would clearly puts steel at a distinct disadvantage on the hills. No doubt you would say that steel is old tech, and equivalent I would also say the 15 lb limit is holding back truely light 10-lbs from appearing in the pinnacle of road racing.


----------



## spade2you

aclinjury said:


> This is not true at all. Let's say you take a Shimano 180mm disc equiped wheel and try to mount it on a bike Magura caliper system, the two don't play nice if the Magura system was designed for 185mm rotor.
> 
> But let's assume that both Shimano and Magura do have 180mm rotors, then in many case, you would most likely need to shim the Magura calipers, and possibly change the brake pad material to match the rotor material of the Shimano. Now you may say, just use the same Magura pads on the Shimano rotor, well the problem with this is that the braking performance might not be optimal since Shimano rotor shape was designed to optimally bind with the shape of the Shimano pads, not Magura pads. And then there is pad-rotor material interface. Wrongly match material-material interface will give you a very noisy and unoptimal system once the pads/rotor heat up.
> 
> So you would also need both Shimano and Magura to agree on, say, standarizing their rotors at a specific size. Last I check in the mbt world, you disc rotor vary in sizes quite a bit, eg, one manufacture would have a disc at 180mm, while another would have an equivalent disc at 185mm, or one would make a 200mm disc while another would make a 203mm disc. They're all over the place, not nicely bundled up like you put it.
> 
> So if disc were to happen at the pro level, major standarization on both disc size material (of both rotors and pads) would have to be standarized to a degree much higher than you see in the mtb world.
> 
> I've been in the mtb long enough to know this, so I'm not just conjecturing theories.


Compatibility among all road bikes would get important. Plus, you'd either need to equip TT bikes or lose compatibility with wheels between those bikes.


----------



## T K

So why would there need to be compatibility or standardization before the pros could use disc. Team A rides disc X. Team B rides with disc Y. Get a flat, you have a support car. Just know from the start, the neutral support vehicles will be carrying rim brakes wheels only. Can't expect them to start driving vans full of wheels around. So if you flat and your team car is not behind, oh well, your choice.
But really, unless the UCI makes it mandatory for all to switch to disc, I just don't see the pro teams making the switch on their own any time soon. 
If given the choice between thinking they can go faster (lighter more aero) or stopping faster (disc), pretty sure most pros would choose going faster.


----------



## spade2you

T K said:


> So why would there need to be compatibility or standardization before the pros could use disc. Team A rides disc X. Team B rides with disc Y. Get a flat, you have a support car. Just know from the start, the neutral support vehicles will be carrying rim brakes wheels only. Can't expect them to start driving vans full of wheels around. So if you flat and your team car is not behind, oh well, your choice.
> But really, unless the UCI makes it mandatory for all to switch to disc, I just don't see the pro teams making the switch on their own any time soon.
> If given the choice between thinking they can go faster (lighter more aero) or stopping faster (disc), pretty sure most pros would choose going faster.


Wheel manufacturers would also need to offer rim+disc for each model. Might suck having a rim brake bike if wheel makers switch to disc only.


----------



## T K

spade2you said:


> Wheel manufacturers would also need to offer rim+disc for each model. Might suck having a rim brake bike if wheel makers switch to disc only.


They have been making rim brake bikes for quite a while now. I'm sure there are millions out there. If rim brakes get completely phased out I'm sure it won't be in our lifetime.


----------



## jajichan

crit_boy said:


> I can foresee this too. I don't know what the UCI rules are. . . but with the difficulties in the rain stages in this years tour, I could see disc brakes coming sooner than later on rainy race days.


Seems to me the difficulties aren't from slowing down so much as taking risks and inattention. Which happens in the dry. In every race. And always has.


----------



## JohnnyTooBad

I have no idea about weight differences, but I would also imagine mechanical disc systems are lighter than hydraulic due to the lack of fluid and less cable housing. I could see the peleton using mechanical discs because of their ease of set up and adjustment, and lack of ability for catastrophic failure from a crash, where the fluid leaks out. Mechanical discs are still extremely powerful.

But so far, you all have totally missed on two big advantages of disc brakes: 1) No rim wear, so rims will last longer (better for the consumer) and no heat build up when braking at high speeds, and 2) (and more important to the pro peleton), no brake rub when the wheels flex when climbing. Your wheel can be totally out of true, but it won't matter to the braking at all. Snap a spoke, and you can still brake.


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> 15-lb is not crippling?


What exactly is being crippled by this rule? As I already pointed out to you the bike manufacturers are making bikes lighter than 15lbs




> Can you name me a sport where top tier pros are using equipment that are mandated to be heavier than say a piece of equipment built on cheap chinese ebay parts?



Sorry, I haven't seen a cheap chinese knock off F1 car on ebay yet. 

Silly point, even if one was to race on cheap ebay parts the bike would weigh the same because they would be required to add ballast. Again technology is not being held back by this rule, many of the pro bikes weigh less than 15lbs.





> You mention spec series motorsport as being exciting. Nascar is well speced, does it look exciting to you?


Don't confuse ones personal interest in the sport vs good competition, that is why I put "best" in quotes. When the machines are similar it becomes more about the driver and less about the money. In spec series there tends to be more battles and leader changes and it is more exciting to watch if you can get past ones passion for the state of the art machinery. Personally, I like racing where there is rewards weight: the better you finish, the more weight gets added to your vehicle. 

Regardless, the motorsports analogy is silly since the machine plays a much bigger role than in cycling. 

If all this technology you are championing was so important, why haven't TDF average speeds increased in the past 20 years? Why aren't the guys on aero bikes riding away from the rest of the field? 





> I'm too in favor of a minimum weight, just not at 15-lb, when a layman can build a lighter bike for a cheaper price. That doesn't sound like advancement to me.


You keep going on about these ebay bikes, but that is an issue of pricing, branding and markup (and an entirely different discussion), not technology. These bikes are not more advanced/lighter than the branded bikes the pros ride. 

And unless one is willing to take a chance and build up an unknown and unbranded ebay bike, it's not that easy($$) for a layman to build a lighter than 15lb bike. 




> Now why am I not surprised that a person advocating disc is in favor of keeping the 15-lb limit all of the sudden? Perhaps is this because a rim bike can be made much lighter and more aero than a disc-equiped bike?


My point pertaining to this discussion was that arguing the weight factor of disc brakes is moot because under the current rules the bikes are already too light, and if everyone is running disc brakes, the playing field is level. 
You are the one who launched into some speculative diatribe about some future rule that may or may not happen.



> Like I said, let the skinny riders looking to lose 2 pounds and gain 10W decide.


Or better yet, let the skinny guys lose 2lbs and then add 2lbs to their bikes. 




> But I have this question for you. If you're truely in favor of a weight limit, then why not bump it up to 20 lbs so that makers of aluminum and steel bikes can also have an fair chance to compete on the world's largest stage? After all, 20 lbs cannot be regarded as crippling to racing the tour since racers of the past used to use them just fine.


Well first off, there are plenty of steel and aluminum frames bikes under 15lbs. Heck, English cycles has built under 12lb steel bikes. Secondly, it wouldn't matter if the weight limit is 20lbs, it wouldn't change anything. 20 years ago they were racing on 20+lb bikes, was the racing less exciting than today? Some would argue it was better. 





> This is not true at all. Let's say you take a Shimano 180mm disc equiped wheel and try to mount it on a bike Magura caliper system, the two don't play nice if the Magura system was designed for 185mm rotor.


Lets say you take a Campy equipped wheel and try and mount it on a Shimano Di2 system....... 



It seems like on every disc brake thread you jump in and start spewing the same old nonsense that reflects more on your personal biases than any actual reality or even common sense. The irony is that one of your arguments you usually make is that disc brakes are just another thing for manufacturers to market/sell to you, well hate to break it to you but having lighter bikes isn't going to make bike racing more exciting or change the outcome, they will be just riding lighter bikes and manufacturers will have something else to market/sell you


----------



## Marc

JohnnyTooBad said:


> I have no idea about weight differences, but I would also imagine mechanical disc systems are lighter than hydraulic due to the lack of fluid and less cable housing. I could see the peleton using mechanical discs because of their ease of set up and adjustment, and lack of ability for catastrophic failure from a crash, where the fluid leaks out. Mechanical discs are still extremely powerful.
> 
> But so far, you all have totally missed on two big advantages of disc brakes: 1) No rim wear, so rims will last longer (better for the consumer) and *no heat build up when braking at high speeds*, and 2) (and more important to the pro peleton), no brake rub when the wheels flex when climbing. Your wheel can be totally out of true, but it won't matter to the braking at all. Snap a spoke, and you can still brake.


Uh hoss...the laws of Thermodynamics want a talk with you in Aisle 1.

It wasn't until the 2nd or 3rd generation of discs that the companies finally started putting heat sinks on calipers...because the disc got so hot shoes would melt and hydraulic fluid would boil. Actually, disc brakes have more severe heat sinking issues than caliper brakes, again basic laws of thermodynamics smaller metal ring with less material doing the same work means that disc gets a lot hotter, except that due to decoupling that heat buildup doesn't screw up your tire/rim.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

Retro Grouch said:


> Hence, "Neutral support."
> 
> Looking at the Mavic website, I didn't really see anything in terms of road disc wheelsets. I assume they are at least in development at this stage.
> 
> Right now, that little yellow Mavic wagon's wheel racks would look pretty bare if the switch to discs were made today.


Yes, because disc hubs do not exist in the world today. My own disc equipped bikes ride on a curtain of air to get over this thorny issue.


----------



## timeless

cxwrench said:


> There would have to be an agreement on rotor size, pad size, and the hardest thing...every damn wheel and frame would have to be made so that calipers and rotors were in _EXACTLY_ the same place. Within fractions of a millimeter.
> 
> Then you'd have to figure out a way to increase traction because better brakes alone don't let you stop any better in wet weather, you have to maintain your connection w/ the pavement.


umm mountain bikes do not have an issue with this.... So it would really be a non-issue.


----------



## Retro Grouch

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Yes, because disc hubs do not exist in the world today. My own disc equipped bikes ride on a curtain of air to get over this thorny issue.


My point was that I didn't see any disc road wheels on the Mavic website.

RIF


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

aclinjury said:


> This is not true at all. Let's say you take a Shimano 180mm disc equiped wheel and try to mount it on a bike Magura caliper system, the two don't play nice if the Magura system was designed for 185mm rotor.
> 
> But let's assume that both Shimano and Magura do have 180mm rotors, then in many case, you would most likely need to shim the Magura calipers, and possibly change the brake pad material to match the rotor material of the Shimano. Now you may say, just use the same Magura pads on the Shimano rotor, well the problem with this is that the braking performance might not be optimal since Shimano rotor shape was designed to optimally bind with the shape of the Shimano pads, not Magura pads. And then there is pad-rotor material interface. Wrongly match material-material interface will give you a very noisy and unoptimal system once the pads/rotor heat up.
> 
> So you would also need both Shimano and Magura to agree on, say, standarizing their rotors at a specific size. Last I check in the mbt world, you disc rotor vary in sizes quite a bit, eg, one manufacture would have a disc at 180mm, while another would have an equivalent disc at 185mm, or one would make a 200mm disc while another would make a 203mm disc. They're all over the place, not nicely bundled up like you put it.
> 
> So if disc were to happen at the pro level, major standarization on both disc size material (of both rotors and pads) would have to be standarized to a degree much higher than you see in the mtb world.
> 
> I've been in the mtb long enough to know this, so I'm not just conjecturing theories.


So there would have to be different brake pads for different wheel? Maybe they could approach that in the same way they do for the requirement of different brake pads for different rim brake wheels.

Everything you say also applies to rim brakes.


----------



## spade2you

T K said:


> They have been making rim brake bikes for quite a while now. I'm sure there are millions out there. If rim brakes get completely phased out I'm sure it won't be in our lifetime.


True. I just get a tad nervous that one type will "win". After picking up a HD DVD player, I try to make sure I'm with the winning technological team.


----------



## dnice

Wow--I had no idea that some people were so vested in what the pros ride! It's about the racing, as far as I am concerned. In the future i'll probably own a road bike with disc brakes and be just as happy (perhaps happier)... *shrug*


----------



## cxwrench

timeless said:


> umm mountain bikes do not have an issue with this.... So it would really be a non-issue.


What?!? I'm guessing you're not working in a bike shop or for a team as your main source of income. Mountain bikes certainly has this issue. Take one wheel out, put a wheel from a different manufacturer in and you'll most likely have to adjust the brake. 

If I wasn't perfectly clear, what I'm talking about is a pro racer thing. If a rider flats and his team car (stocked w/ exactly the same wheels he's got on his bike) isn't close, he'll get a wheel from neutral service (Mavic at the TdF) and the chances of that wheel working w/o any adjustment of the caliper is pretty damn slim.


----------



## bike981

cxwrench said:


> If a rider flats and his team car (stocked w/ exactly the same wheels he's got on his bike) isn't close, he'll get a wheel from neutral service (Mavic at the TdF) and the chances of that wheel working w/o any adjustment of the caliper is pretty damn slim.


What's involved is adjusting the caliper? Is there no way to design a "quick adjust" caliper?


----------



## aclinjury

Maximus_XXIV said:


> *So there would have to be different brake pads for different wheel*? Maybe they could approach that in the same way they do for the requirement of different brake pads for different rim brake wheels.
> 
> Everything you say also applies to rim brakes.


I reckon that you have done much experimenting with equipments on mtb bikes?

Let me use a very concrete real world example. I have the Magura SL brake system on my mtb bike. The rotors are made out of steel, although Magura doesn't state what type of steel it is. Magura recommends using only Magura pads for optimal braking performance. And even Magura pads come in several varieties. For example, they have semi-metallic pads, and they have the organic pads. The difference being that the semi-metallic ones don't grab as well as the organic ones, but the semi metallic last longer, but semi metallic also gives off more squeal when they're heated up (such as in a long descent requiring hard braking). The shape of the semi metallic pads are the same as the shape of the organic pads. So here, we see that even within the same manufacturer, there are pad choices that can affect the performance of braking.

Now, if you were to go and buy a thirdy party pads like from Jagwire, and this is something that I did simply because most bike shops do not stock the OEM Magura pads I wanted. Well, the Jagwire pads do not have the same shape as the Magura ones, and the Jagwire pads only come in semi metallic. But I really wanted organic pads for their better braking performance and quiter operation under high heat. At any rate I put the Jagwire ones on,.. and btw the Jagwire pads do not have the same thickness of the Magura, so I had to adjusted my caliper a bit by shimming them for optimal rotor/pad clearance. I went out for a 30 mile ride with about 15mile of straight descent. About 3-4 miles down the descend, the Jagwire pads start to squeal like a mother (think a flock of geese screaming). That was the first sign that heat had come into play. Then Jagwire pads start to pulsate, that is, they no longer bind and brake smoothly as the brake lever is pulled. Then the pulsation will eventually turn into mushiness at the lever (a sign that the fluid is heating up). It has gotten to a point that I had to get off my bike and stop every 1 mile or so so the brake system and the pads can cool down.

This behavior is not unique to Magura and Jagwire pads either. It happens to Shimano and Avid systems just as well.

Changing pads when changing wheels is.. ugh... unacceptable in a pro face. Changing pads while is easy, is not not exactly plug-n-play fast either.

Yes it happens on rim brakes to. But the extent is much less.


----------



## aclinjury

bike981 said:


> What's involved is adjusting the caliper? Is there no way to design a "quick adjust" caliper?


The way to do it is usually through shimming, involving either inserting or removing thin washers to reposition (ever so slightly) the caliper. It is not a difficult process, but it can be very time consuming if you're a perfectionist and you just have to get that rotor-caliper-pad clearance to be perfectly right.


----------



## timeless

aclinjury said:


> This is not true at all. Let's say you take a Shimano 180mm disc equiped wheel and try to mount it on a bike Magura caliper system, the two don't play nice if the Magura system was designed for 185mm rotor.
> 
> But let's assume that both Shimano and Magura do have 180mm rotors, then in many case, you would most likely need to shim the Magura calipers, and possibly change the brake pad material to match the rotor material of the Shimano. Now you may say, just use the same Magura pads on the Shimano rotor, well the problem with this is that the braking performance might not be optimal since Shimano rotor shape was designed to optimally bind with the shape of the Shimano pads, not Magura pads. And then there is pad-rotor material interface. Wrongly match material-material interface will give you a very noisy and unoptimal system once the pads/rotor heat up.
> 
> So you would also need both Shimano and Magura to agree on, say, standarizing their rotors at a specific size. Last I check in the mbt world, you disc rotor vary in sizes quite a bit, eg, one manufacture would have a disc at 180mm, while another would have an equivalent disc at 185mm, or one would make a 200mm disc while another would make a 203mm disc. They're all over the place, not nicely bundled up like you put it.
> 
> So if disc were to happen at the pro level, major standarization on both disc size material (of both rotors and pads) would have to be standarized to a degree much higher than you see in the mtb world.
> 
> I've been in the mtb long enough to know this, so I'm not just conjecturing theories.



You do not need to get them agree really.
Most will follow suit with what Shimano/SRAM do any how. A lot of 3rd part parts simply will saw Shimano/Sram compatible. That means they will just follow that standard.
Mix with in the road bike world (compared to mountain bike) the brake levers and shifters are one and the same. Chances are most of the parts will be what ever those 2 use as they will lead the charge.


----------



## Retro Grouch

aclinjury said:


> The way to do it is usually through shimming, involving either inserting or removing thin washers to reposition (ever so slightly) the caliper. It is not a difficult process, but it can be very time consuming if you're a perfectionist and you just have to get that rotor-caliper-pad clearance to be perfectly right.


Brake shimms in bidons?


----------



## SwiftSolo

aclinjury said:


> This is not true at all. Let's say you take a Shimano 180mm disc equiped wheel and try to mount it on a bike Magura caliper system, the two don't play nice if the Magura system was designed for 185mm rotor.
> 
> But let's assume that both Shimano and Magura do have 180mm rotors, then in many case, you would most likely need to shim the Magura calipers, and possibly change the brake pad material to match the rotor material of the Shimano. Now you may say, just use the same Magura pads on the Shimano rotor, well the problem with this is that the braking performance might not be optimal since Shimano rotor shape was designed to optimally bind with the shape of the Shimano pads, not Magura pads. And then there is pad-rotor material interface. Wrongly match material-material interface will give you a very noisy and unoptimal system once the pads/rotor heat up.
> 
> So you would also need both Shimano and Magura to agree on, say, standarizing their rotors at a specific size. Last I check in the mbt world, you disc rotor vary in sizes quite a bit, eg, one manufacture would have a disc at 180mm, while another would have an equivalent disc at 185mm, or one would make a 200mm disc while another would make a 203mm disc. They're all over the place, not nicely bundled up like you put it.
> 
> So if disc were to happen at the pro level, major standarization on both disc size material (of both rotors and pads) would have to be standarized to a degree much higher than you see in the mtb world.
> 
> I've been in the mtb long enough to know this, so I'm not just conjecturing theories.


I have the same trouble when I try to mount a 700 road tire on my grandson's 20" cross bike. 

On a more serious note, rim width already makes current brake systems and set up specific. Zipp rims are 27mm wide while some are as narrow as 21. Brakes set up for one will not work for the other without time consuming rework.

Clearly, rotors will standardize at 140mm. Those who want to race with 160's will do so knowing that they are creating some problems for themselves and will see no difference / improvement in deceleration ability. Again we are talking about hydro disc systems that won't have to go through the evolution process that mountain bikes have gone through. Nearly every innovation in road biking has come from mountain biking. Mountain biking has pretty much worked the problems out of hydro disc brakes.

It should also be pointed out that mountain bikes race quite well without standardizations--just as road bikes currently do.


----------



## SwiftSolo

You have a good point. In fact, the pros were riding just fine with friction shifters on the down tubes.

The bottom line is that nobody who has been on a shimano disc equipped road bike for a week of riding is likely to want to return to rim brakes. They are superior is so many ways.

This debate is a repeat of when discs first came out on mountain bikes. We had a lot of x-spurts who had never tried them, including many who claimed they had but clearly hadn't. Ludditism remains alive and well in road biking.


mikerp said:


> Please explain how it's better, the pros have been descending just fine with caliper rim brakes, have they been holding back on descents because of brakes? Certainly doesn't seem that way as they spin out and tuck for the most part.
> As for tech and racing, the rider makes the race not the tech.


----------



## aclinjury

MoPho said:


> *What exactly is being crippled by this rule? As I already pointed out to you the bike manufacturers are making bikes lighter than 15lbs*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sorry, I haven't seen a cheap chinese knock off F1 car on ebay yet.*
> 
> Silly point, even if one was to race on cheap ebay parts the bike would weigh the same because they would be required to add ballast. Again technology is not being held back by this rule, many of the pro bikes weigh less than 15lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse ones personal interest in the sport vs good competition, that is why I put "best" in quotes. When the machines are similar it becomes more about the driver and less about the money. In spec series there tends to be more battles and leader changes and it is more exciting to watch if you can get past ones passion for the state of the art machinery. Personally, I like racing where there is rewards weight: the better you finish, the more weight gets added to your vehicle.
> 
> Regardless, the motorsports analogy is silly since the machine plays a much bigger role than in cycling.
> 
> If all this technology you are championing was so important, why haven't TDF average speeds increased in the past 20 years? Why aren't the guys on aero bikes riding away from the rest of the field?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You keep going on about these ebay bikes, but that is an issue of pricing, branding and markup (and an entirely different discussion), not technology. These bikes are not more advanced/lighter than the branded bikes the pros ride.
> 
> And unless one is willing to take a chance and build up an unknown and unbranded ebay bike, it's not that easy($$) for a layman to build a lighter than 15lb bike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point pertaining to this discussion was that arguing the weight factor of disc brakes is moot because under the current rules the bikes are already too light, and if everyone is running disc brakes, the playing field is level.
> You are the one who launched into some speculative diatribe about some future rule that may or may not happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Or better yet, let the skinny guys lose 2lbs and then add 2lbs to their bikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well first off, there are plenty of steel and aluminum frames bikes under 15lbs. Heck, English cycles has built under 12lb steel bikes. Secondly, it wouldn't matter if the weight limit is 20lbs, it wouldn't change anything. 20 years ago they were racing on 20+lb bikes, was the racing less exciting than today? Some would argue it was better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets say you take a Campy equipped wheel and try and mount it on a Shimano Di2 system.......
> 
> 
> 
> *It seems like on every disc brake thread you jump in and start spewing the same old nonsense that reflects more on your personal biases than any actual reality or even common sense. The irony is that one of your arguments you usually make is that disc brakes are just another thing for manufacturers to market/sell to you, well hate to break it to you but having lighter bikes isn't going to make bike racing more exciting or change the outcome, they will be just riding lighter bikes and manufacturers will have something else to market/sell you*


I will just respond to 3 points above.

1. I think we're perhaps not looking at things on the same level. You say that manufacturers are already making bikes lighter than 15 lbs. I know this. But what I'm saying is that they are forced to artificially bring their bikes up to 15 lbs, so that in the end result they are still effectively making a 15-lb bike, correct? And that is my argument, they're not allow to use the 10-lb bike that they can make right now.

2. There is no cheap chinese knockoff F1 cars, but there are cheap chinese knockoff can be made much lighter than the artifically heavy 15-lb top of the line bike in the pinnacle of road racing. What is wrong with this picture?

3. And it seems that when ever this topic comes up, I can also said the same of the pro-disc crowd, no? Do you not notice this to be the same for everyone? or is it just me that you're fixating on? True, having a light bike doesn't necessarily making for more exciting racing, but having light bikes bring on innovation. Note, I am not arguing against disc. What I'm arguing is that if there is to be disc, then the UCI should also change the weight limit to 10 pound too. This way, we will see a technology battles between 2 camps: one that chooses the light and aero rim brake setup but at the cost of lesser braking performance... and one that chooses the heavier disc setup but with an advantage of better braking. That is my position.

I'm speaking from a position of a person who has spent more time on a mtb trail bike, downhill bikes, and dirtjumper bikes than has on a road bike. This is in addition to motorcycling where, yes, disc are used. I have plenty of experience working and reparing disc calipers on mtb, motorycles, and cars. So I'm not just being argumentative for its sake. I have real world experience on hydro disc, probably more than most in here.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

bike981 said:


> What's involved is adjusting the caliper? Is there no way to design a "quick adjust" caliper?


If there is, I bet no one will admit to it until after it is patented!


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> 1. I think we're perhaps not looking at things on the same level. You say that manufacturers are already making bikes lighter than 15 lbs. I know this. But what I'm saying is that they are forced to artificially bring their bikes up to 15 lbs, so that in the end result they are still effectively making a 15-lb bike, correct? And that is my argument, they're not allow to use the 10-lb bike that they can make right now.


Um no. Fact is they are designing, making, and selling lighter bikes, the weight limit is not "crippling to technological advancement" (your words), and nothing is stopping them from using those 10 lb bikes if they want to. I believe the 10lb Trek Emonda was raced (with ballast) this year.



> 2. There is no cheap chinese knockoff F1 cars, but there are cheap chinese knockoff can be made much lighter than the artifically heavy 15-lb top of the line bike in the pinnacle of road racing. What is wrong with this picture?


:mad2: Huh?! Again, these knock off bikes you refer to are only "lighter" than the pro race bikes because they are not raced. 
If raced, you're cheap knockoff bike weighs the same 15lbs. It has nothing to do with design or how they are made.





> 3. And it seems that when ever this topic comes up, I can also said the same of the pro-disc crowd, no? Do you not notice this to be the same for everyone? *or is it just me that you're fixating on?* True, having a light bike doesn't necessarily making for more exciting racing, *but having light bikes bring on innovation.* Note, I am not arguing against disc. What I'm arguing is that if there is to be disc, then the UCI should also change the weight limit to 10 pound too. *This way, we will see a technology battles between 2 camps: one that chooses the light and aero rim brake setup but at the cost of lesser braking performance... and one that chooses the heavier disc setup but with an advantage of better braking. That is my position.*


I am "fixating" on you because YOU chose to argue against my original post. 

Clearly when Trek just launched a 10lb bike that they spent 30 months working on they are not holding back on innovation. In the end they still need to sell bikes and need new ways to get people excited to buy them.

As noted several times, there is concern about differences in braking power in a mixed setting and that everyone would need to be on disc if it were to happen. Your position is moot. 



.


----------



## SwiftSolo

cxwrench said:


> What?!? I'm guessing you're not working in a bike shop or for a team as your main source of income. Mountain bikes certainly has this issue. Take one wheel out, put a wheel from a different manufacturer in and you'll most likely have to adjust the brake.
> 
> If I wasn't perfectly clear, what I'm talking about is a pro racer thing. If a rider flats and his team car (stocked w/ exactly the same wheels he's got on his bike) isn't close, he'll get a wheel from neutral service (Mavic at the TdF) and the chances of that wheel working w/o any adjustment of the caliper is pretty damn slim.


The chances that those mavic wheels will work on the array of competitor wheeled bikes already pose a problem. Distances between brakes surfaces vary significantly depending on the manufacturer. It's much faster to grab a team mates wheel or bike than to attempt to make the brakes work on bike set up for 27mm wide wheels when replacing them with 23's.

Perhaps the Mavic car operators know the width between braking surfaces of each of the teams bikes and carries numerous different wheels? If so, they could adapt to discs. Also, if I want to count on the Mavic car for wheel changes, it strikes me that I'll use what they have.


----------



## CliffordK

bike981 said:


> What's involved is adjusting the caliper? Is there no way to design a "quick adjust" caliper?


For the lateral movement of the mechanism it is just a simple engineering problem. Essentially all automotive style brakes are designed to slide back and forth on a pair of rods. In the bike world, one could simply mount the calliper on 2 rods. Add a cam lock if one wishes. It becomes a bigger issue if one is dealing with different diameters of disks too. 

For the neutral support vehicles, it wouldn't be a big deal for them to support, say 2 different disc configurations. 

If the drop-out spacing is the same, then it wouldn't be too hard to make wheels with both discs, as well as a rim braking surface. Given a choice of changing a flat beside the road in the middle of a race vs a dual purpose disc/rim brake wheel for a few miles until one can catch up with one's own team support vehicle, most people would just take the dual purpose wheel.

The Deore XT hubs are designed so that a disc can be mounted in about 10 seconds. 

In fact, if one had Deore XT wheels in the support vehicle, one could stock them without discs. For a rim brake bike, just mount it without a disc. For a disc brake bike, add the appropriate size disc, and mount it. Technically one could make positive and negative offset discs too, so a support vehicle could just have a small rack which would give them every imaginable disc combination. They'd just need to know who gets which disc mounted.

Of course that isn't a road hub, but the technology for quick change discs already exists.


----------



## Ridin'Sorra

mikerp said:


> Apples to Oranges,


Not really. All of them were trying to go as fast as possible with the equipment supplied with no second thoughts. They just found advantages in disc brakes and jumped onto it because it was safer and in turn made them go faster.

The Pro peloton will not be different.



mikerp said:


> Has anyone disputed the disk has more stopping power (especially in the rain)? No
> The point was, the Pro go downhill top out with the brakes they have now, discs won't speed them up.


Seriously? Not even at a stage like descending the Stelvio with rain and drizzle?
Discs are safer in these conditions and a few others and that will in turn make them faster as they find the confidence to brake properly and safely.

I am sure they will not use disc equipped bikes at flat-sprint stage or on rolling terrain. But come the Classics and mountain stages and sure they will prefer disc brakes.
Both systems will co-exist and riders will use whatever they think is an advantage to them.


----------



## SwiftSolo

We already had the discussion about weight. Hydro disc brakes will add about 8oz. to all of the bikes in the tour--about 1/3rd of the weight of a full water bottle.

Also, nearly all high performance sail boat racing has weight limits--many of those limits are 30 years old. It is now possible to build those boats much lighter, however, they choose to avoid the cost associated with an arms race.


aclinjury said:


> 15-lb is not crippling? Can you name me a sport where top tier pros are using equipment that are mandated to be heavier than say a piece of equipment built on cheap chinese ebay parts? There isn't one sport I can think of for maybe perhaps Nascar (but we all know Nascar isn't really about technology as it's about spectacle).
> 
> You mention spec series motorsport as being exciting. Nascar is well speced, does it look exciting to you? In motorcycle racing, WSBK is more speced compared to MotoGP, yes. If "exciting" to you means watching a bunch of tier2 racers racing with a bunch of tier2 machine, then I can't argue with that. Meanwhile. MotoGP has the best riders and the best equipment. I want to see MotoGP, not WSBK, not BSB, and certainly not AMA.
> 
> I'm too in favor of a minimum weight, just not at 15-lb, when a layman can build a lighter bike for a cheaper price. That doesn't sound like advancement to me.
> 
> Now why am I not surprised that a person advocating disc is in favor of keeping the 15-lb limit all of the sudden? Perhaps is this because a rim bike can be made much lighter and more aero than a disc-equiped bike? Like I said, let the skinny riders looking to lose 2 pounds and gain 10W decide.
> 
> But I have this question for you. If you're truely in favor of a weight limit, then why not bump it up to 20 lbs so that makers of aluminum and steel bikes can also have an fair chance to compete on the world's largest stage? After all, 20 lbs cannot be regarded as crippling to racing the tour since racers of the past used to use them just fine.


----------



## SwiftSolo

When the UCI decides to adopt disc brakes they will not have to place any limitation against mechanical disc brakes--just as there is currently no need for a limitation against friction shifters on the down tube. Tour riders and bike manufacturers will opt for state of the art equipment. 

Hydro lines are now almost entirely routed internally. Once adopted for use in racing, top end bikes will likely continue that trend. Remember, hydraulic lines do no have the routing limitations of cables.

I do recognize the belief that all innovation is simply an attempt by bass turd capitalists to sell new stuff to ignorant consumers. There are those who believe that the Model T Ford was good enough and those who believe that the 2014 models are better but that all of the iterations between were simply a fraud by these capitalists (they should have brought the 2014 models out in 1930). Some of us do not buy into either theory.


Retro Grouch said:


> Has the UCI decided to only adopt mechanical versus hydraulic discs? Can you say this for a fact when there hasn't been the decision made to allow disc brakes in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> You are only trading the potential of a broken cable with a hydraulic system leak. It is possible for a rider to crash then get back on the bike and find out at the worst time he has lost fluid and comprmised his breaking ability. Farfetched, but not impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> These are not pros. Just cycling enthusiasts with a desire for the newest innovation.


----------



## CliffordK

SwiftSolo said:


> We already had the discussion about weight. Hydro disc brakes will add about 8oz. to all of the bikes in the tour--about 1/3rd of the weight of a full water bottle.
> 
> Also, nearly all high performance sail boat racing has weight limits--many of those limits are 30 years old. It is now possible to build those boats much lighter, however, they choose to avoid the cost associated with an arms race.


I noticed in the TDF, a lot of the riders were doing the hill climbs without water bottles, perhaps much of the race without that extra couple of pounds of water.

I agree about the "arms race". Pro sports may be different from amateur sports, but I could imagine some riders showing up on $100K+ sub 10 pound bikes, and others being completely priced out of the market. And, I have no doubt that if weight is the only driving factor, then some bikes will be built that are unsafe due to shaving off too much weight.

Personally I don't mind that the riders have bikes that all weigh about the same, and thus start the races on a level playing field.

The biggest downside that I see of a minimum weight is that bicycle manufactures sponsor pro cyclists to showcase their wares, and may feel that they can't properly show off their wares when hobbled by weight limits that are already ridiculously low. It may also limit research and innovation into lighter designs that are not used in racing.

If the disc brakes are truly safer, and potentially faster (due to more responsive braking on corners), then perhaps the 15 pound weight limit will give everyone the incentive to test the discs, although they would still need to be approved by the race associations. Perhaps there would be other innovations beyond "lighter is better".


----------



## CliffordK

SwiftSolo said:


> There are those who believe that the Model T Ford was good enough and those who believe that the 2014 models are better but that all of the iterations between were simply a fraud by these capitalists (they should have brought the 2014 models out in 1930). Some of us do not buy into either theory.


Hopefully I'll get my 30+ year old pickup back on the road this week... as there is not a single pickup that has been sold in the USA in the last 20 years that comes close to the fuel efficiency of some of the older ones (compact sized).

As far as bicycles. I agree that some innovations are incremental. 
Perhaps an 11 speed cluster would have put too much stress on the axles of bicycles with the old freewheel design. So, they had to wait for the cassettes to be invented. But there is no reason we can't have 12 speed now, or couldn't have had 11 speed a decade ago.


----------



## eriku16

All this pointless back and forth, amounting to nothing. Any one of you ever raced? This is about top level, pro racing. It's about who comes across the line first. There's is NO competitive *performance* advantage to a disc brake system that will make that happen. Racing in the wet, as well as descending requires three things:

1. Skills (the madder the better)
2. Confidence 
3. Balls on a level that overcomes ones fear of death

The above in mind, disc brakes will not make any difference. I raced a long time ago for 10 years in the cold/hot/wet/snow and I never wished for better brakes, just more wins!. 

It's just pure greed from companies wanting to sell mores bikes...

/thread


----------



## cxwrench

CliffordK said:


> For the lateral movement of the mechanism it is just a simple engineering problem. Essentially all automotive style brakes are designed to slide back and forth on a pair of rods. In the bike world, one could simply mount the calliper on 2 rods. Add a cam lock if one wishes. It becomes a bigger issue if one is dealing with different diameters of disks too.
> 
> For the neutral support vehicles, it wouldn't be a big deal for them to support, say 2 different disc configurations.
> 
> If the drop-out spacing is the same, then it wouldn't be too hard to make wheels with both discs, as well as a rim braking surface. Given a choice of changing a flat beside the road in the middle of a race vs a dual purpose disc/rim brake wheel for a few miles until one can catch up with one's own team support vehicle, most people would just take the dual purpose wheel.
> 
> The Deore XT hubs are designed so that a disc can be mounted in about 10 seconds.
> 
> In fact, if one had Deore XT wheels in the support vehicle, one could stock them without discs. For a rim brake bike, just mount it without a disc. For a disc brake bike, add the appropriate size disc, and mount it. Technically one could make positive and negative offset discs too, so a support vehicle could just have a small rack which would give them every imaginable disc combination. They'd just need to know who gets which disc mounted.
> 
> Of course that isn't a road hub, but the technology for quick change discs already exists.


Wow...you're amazingly out of touch w/ the realities of racing and team/neutral support. If you think a neutral mechanic is going to jump out of the car w/ a wheel and a handful of rotors, and a lockring wrench, run to the bike, take a quick look and determine which rotor he needs to mount, then install it, THEN put the wheel on the bike...hoping that the brake isn't dragging much. 

IMO going to disc brakes on race bikes would all but end wheel changes. I think we'd see it force a change to doing bike changes anytime something like a flat happened. It's really hard to say, maybe one of the 'Big 3' will come up w/ something that makes wheels changes easy. _Maybe_ they'll all agree on rotor size and manage to get the wheel manufacturers to produce wheels that all have the rotor in exactly the same place _for real_. Theoretically they're all in the same place now, but I can tell you they're not. A few .001's makes all the difference. And the bike companies have to play nice too...they'll have to get more accurate w/ caliper mounts. 

In the end going to discs on race bikes is going to cost the industry metric sh*t tons of $$$...for something that isn't exactly needed. There is no doubt that disc brakes are amazing. I've ridden the new Domane w/ Di2 and Shimano discs...incredible. But...are pro teams/racers/bike sponsors going to deal w/ what it would take to get the whole peloton on them?


----------



## 32and3cross

cxwrench said:


> Wow...you're amazingly out of touch w/ the realities of racing and team/neutral support. If you think a neutral mechanic is going to jump out of the car w/ a wheel and a handful of rotors, and a lockring wrench, run to the bike, take a quick look and determine which rotor he needs to mount, then install it, THEN put the wheel on the bike...hoping that the brake isn't dragging much.
> 
> IMO going to disc brakes on race bikes would all but end wheel changes. I think we'd see it force a change to doing bike changes anytime something like a flat happened. It's really hard to say, maybe one of the 'Big 3' will come up w/ something that makes wheels changes easy. _Maybe_ they'll all agree on rotor size and manage to get the wheel manufacturers to produce wheels that all have the rotor in exactly the same place _for real_. Theoretically they're all in the same place now, but I can tell you they're not. A few .001's makes all the difference. And the bike companies have to play nice too...they'll have to get more accurate w/ caliper mounts.
> 
> In the end going to discs on race bikes is going to cost the industry metric sh*t tons of $$$...for something that isn't exactly needed. There is no doubt that disc brakes are amazing. I've ridden the new Domane w/ Di2 and Shimano discs...incredible. But...are pro teams/racers/bike sponsors going to deal w/ what it would take to get the whole peloton on them?


This is the first reply I have seen that really nails the realities of having riders on all sort of different disc brakes in a race would be. Add to that that now all the teams would need to provide top riders withe both bikes to train on (if you think they would be willing to just use the disc brake bikes in races without riding them a lot your mistaken) the mechanics would have double the bikes to maintain and carry and more wheels to have built up and carry. 

Its a nice (but un-nessary) technology but expect the teams to be very very slow to want to adopt this due to the burden it would place on the teams.


----------



## tlg

CliffordK said:


> For the lateral movement of the mechanism it is just a simple engineering problem. Essentially all automotive style brakes are designed to slide back and forth on a pair of rods. In the bike world, one could simply mount the calliper on 2 rods.


So simple... yet no one has done it. Wonder why that is. If it's so simple, someone would've done it, patented it, revolutionized the bike world, and made a bazillion dollars.



cxwrench said:


> IMO going to disc brakes on race bikes would all but end wheel changes. I think we'd see it force a change to doing bike changes anytime something like a flat happened.


That's what I envision if they were to jump to disc with the current technology. Teams aren't going to waste time dealing with caliper and rotor alignment. A bike swap would be easier. Heck we already frequently see bike swaps like on mountain stages where a rider swaps out a bike with a different cassette for the mountain. 



> It's really hard to say, maybe one of the 'Big 3' will come up w/ something that makes wheels changes easy. _Maybe_ they'll all agree on rotor size and manage to get the wheel manufacturers to produce wheels that all have the rotor in exactly the same place _for real_. Theoretically they're all in the same place now, but I can tell you they're not. A few .001's makes all the difference. And the bike companies have to play nice too...they'll have to get more accurate w/ caliper mounts.


Hahaha... that's funny. That has as much chance as companies standardizing BB's.


----------



## Retro Grouch

32and3cross said:


> Its a nice (but un-nessary) technology but expect the teams to be very very slow to want to adopt this due to the burden it would place on the teams.


I believe a tug-of-war will ensue between the company supplying the bikes and the team themselves. A bike manufacturer will want their flagship model disc bike showcased to help sell product to the consumer at the expense of the team, who will have to live with the reality of supporting the bike in a race.

Of course, the fattest wallet will always have the greatest influence and will prevail.


----------



## BacDoc

Retro Grouch said:


> I believe a tug-of-war will ensue between the company supplying the bikes and the team themselves. A bike manufacturer will want their flagship model disc bike showcased to help sell product to the consumer at the expense of the team, who will have to live with the reality of supporting the bike in a race.
> 
> Of course, the fattest wallet will always have the greatest influence and will prevail.


Agree!


----------



## 32and3cross

Retro Grouch said:


> Of course, the fattest wallet will always have the greatest influence and will prevail.


Maybe or maybe you would end up with some disc bikes being brought out for show a la Sven Nys's disc treks that he barely rode in races last season.


----------



## Whacked

SwiftSolo said:


> Clearly, rotors will standardize at 140mm.


Ummm, maybe I'm looking in the wrong areas but IMNSHO "standard" seems to be 160
Can't even recall seeing a bike equipped with 140mm. My road bike came with 160. I have yet to see new disk systems for sale with 140mm options. 160, 180 and larger but no 140.


----------



## timeless

CliffordK said:


> I noticed in the TDF, a lot of the riders were doing the hill climbs without water bottles, perhaps much of the race without that extra couple of pounds of water.
> 
> I agree about the "arms race". Pro sports may be different from amateur sports, but I could imagine some riders showing up on $100K+ sub 10 pound bikes, and others being completely priced out of the market. And, I have no doubt that if weight is the only driving factor, then some bikes will be built that are unsafe due to shaving off too much weight.
> 
> Personally I don't mind that the riders have bikes that all weigh about the same, and thus start the races on a level playing field.
> 
> The biggest downside that I see of a minimum weight is that bicycle manufactures sponsor pro cyclists to showcase their wares, and may feel that they can't properly show off their wares when hobbled by weight limits that are already ridiculously low. It may also limit research and innovation into lighter designs that are not used in racing.
> 
> If the disc brakes are truly safer, and potentially faster (due to more responsive braking on corners), then perhaps the 15 pound weight limit will give everyone the incentive to test the discs, although they would still need to be approved by the race associations. Perhaps there would be other innovations beyond "lighter is better".


Another thing to think about as people keep arguing the weight limited is out dated besides the endless arms race in getting lighter and potentially unsafe in the goal to cut weight is it causes the manufactures to look into other things to increase speed and confort. 
For example you have the Trek madone which uses in inovative seat tube to try to increase rider comfort. Or starting to make road bikes even more arrow to increase speed.
It also keeps the general public from having to buy race components that wear our extremely fast. It bad enough already but image if you were going threw 300 buck cassettes everyone 500 miles and chains in even less. Just to save a few grams. At least now they are force to try to innovated in other ways other than cutting weight.
Disk brakes is another one of those catigories. 
Hell it could be argue the increase weight of the hydro disk system could easily be a wash after you factor in the reduced weight of the wheels due to rotational weight is worth a lot more so they might only need to shave 1-2 oz off the outer part of the wheel for a break even. Plus you can make the wheels stronger. No crazy pad requirements for carbon wheels ect.


----------



## SwiftSolo

CliffordK said:


> Hopefully I'll get my 30+ year old pickup back on the road this week... as there is not a single pickup that has been sold in the USA in the last 20 years that comes close to the fuel efficiency of some of the older ones (compact sized).
> 
> As far as bicycles. I agree that some innovations are incremental.
> Perhaps an 11 speed cluster would have put too much stress on the axles of bicycles with the old freewheel design. So, they had to wait for the cassettes to be invented. But there is no reason we can't have 12 speed now, or couldn't have had 11 speed a decade ago.


We could have 20 spedd right now except for a few small problems (in addition to the capitalist bass turd problem. First we have to get all of the frame manufacturers to agree to wider rear drop outs or we need to make the chains even narrower. The wider drop out is an issue in that the chain line is already a bit of a problem on 11 speed with the current front chain rings when crossed up. The chains are already pretty friken narrow on 11 speed and going narrower will decrease lateral stiffness further, making shifting an iffy situation with current technology.

As far as your pick-up is concerned, it's good that fuel economy is your biggest consideration. Not everyone is so......a....lucky.


----------



## den bakker

CliffordK said:


> For the neutral support vehicles, it wouldn't be a big deal for them to support, say 2 different disc configurations.


except that it would be 2*2. including two different cassette option. 
so now we are at 4. imagine the fun for the neutral car remembering who's riding what and when. 
As for just getting a wheel later from the team car. going from 0-50 is not that much fun in the first place after a wheel change and then chase back on. Now you want me to do it twice? eff that.


----------



## SwiftSolo

mikerp said:


> Apples to Oranges,
> 
> Has anyone disputed the disk has more stopping power (especially in the rain)? No
> The point was, the Pro go downhill top out with the brakes they have now, discs won't speed them up.


They will indeed be faster. They will charge into the hairpin deeper at higher speeds and kill speed with assurance and predictability at the last second. They no longer will need for their rims to shed grit and moisture before their brakes work well.

This will have no impact in the Tour De Florida since few of those freeway overpasses have hairpins.


----------



## Ray Knight

I would love to have discs on my road bike! Its day and night difference in braking power. My MTBs are nearly 2x heavier and no doubt 2x the rotating mass of my carbon 700c wheels and the hydro disc brakes are insanely stronger than my dura ace rim brakes. Aero disadvantage would be outweighed by faster speed scrubs that allow later braking with less effort.


----------



## SwiftSolo

You maybe need to take a better look. 

I'm talking about advanced level road bikes--the type used in the tour. Cannondale, Specialized, Giant, on and on--all on 140's. Can you even show me a tour level bike with something else on it? 

It is true that lower end bikes will likely stay with mechanical discs for now. with bigger discs.



Whacked said:


> Ummm, maybe I'm looking in the wrong areas but IMNSHO "standard" seems to be 160
> Can't even recall seeing a bike equipped with 140mm. My road bike came with 160. I have yet to see new disk systems for sale with 140mm options. 160, 180 and larger but no 140.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Every bike within a team will have the same wheels and same frame manufacturer. Those wheels may vary from other teams, just as they do currently (different cogsetts, different cog manufacturers, different brake surface spacing and angles).


tlg said:


> So simple... yet no one has done it. Wonder why that is. If it's so simple, someone would've done it, patented it, revolutionized the bike world, and made a bazillion dollars.
> 
> That's what I envision if they were to jump to disc with the current technology. Teams aren't going to waste time dealing with caliper and rotor alignment. A bike swap would be easier. Heck we already frequently see bike swaps like on mountain stages where a rider swaps out a bike with a different cassette for the mountain.
> 
> Hahaha... that's funny. That has as much chance as companies standardizing BB's.


----------



## thumper8888

SwiftSolo said:


> They will indeed be faster. They will charge into the hairpin deeper at higher speeds and kill speed with assurance and predictability at the last second. They no longer will need for their rims to shed grit and moisture before their brakes work well.
> 
> This will have no impact in the Tour De Florida since few of those freeway overpasses have hairpins.


No, they clearly would be going slower. The amount of distance in which they are riding the brakes so hard that discs would make a difference is non-existent on some stages and a matter of three or four individual turns on the majority.

Meanwhile, the aerodynamic drag would be non-stop, affecting every foot of every descent in particular, anyone in breaks and anyone pulling on the front.

It's really a joke.


----------



## albert owen

I have 2 road bikes with discs and 2 with rim brakes. They are all great bikes and stop fast enough in all conditions. This isn't the issue in my opinion.
Discs will become the norm because the manufacturers need to sell new products and the Pro Tour is their shop window. Just like electronic shifting, which gives very little real advantage, if any, to the racers and general riders, so discs are also a solution to a non-existent problem.
Once everyone has discs, they'll come up with another "advance". 
Shaft Drive with torque dependent hydraulics to automatically vary gear ratios anyone?


----------



## SwiftSolo

thumper8888 said:


> No, they clearly would be going slower. The amount of distance in which they are riding the brakes so hard that discs would make a difference is non-existent on some stages and a matter of three or four individual turns on the majority.
> 
> Meanwhile, the aerodynamic drag would be non-stop, affecting every foot of every descent in particular, anyone in breaks and anyone pulling on the front.
> 
> It's really a joke.


With your vast experience on hydro road discs racing against rim brakes, do share your knowledge and first hand experience with us. I'm guessing that you use rim brakes downhill racing ( mountain biking) as well ? Let us know how that is working out for you!


----------



## mikerp

albert owen said:


> Once everyone has discs, they'll come up with another "advance".
> Shaft Drive with torque dependent hydraulics to automatically vary gear ratios anyone?


Shaft drives been done, auto gear ratios could be done based on power/cadence feedback PLC.


----------



## thumper8888

SwiftSolo said:


> With your vast experience on hydro road discs racing against rim brakes, do share your knowledge and first hand experience with us. I'm guessing that you use rim brakes downhill racing ( mountain biking) as well ? Let us know how that is working out for you!


Ummm, no thanks. If this unprovoked snotty tone is part of the ground rules, I believe I'll sit out this thread.


----------



## fatcitywicked

I have never been in a road race or crit where a race was won on the strengths of someone's ability to slow down for a corner. With the exception of an alpine descent, road racing is not like Moto GP. Discs stop better, but are heavier , less aero and unless every team agrees to standardize rotor size, hub standards, quick release standards and caliper placement standards wheel changes will be a nightmare.


----------



## bike981

den bakker said:


> except that it would be 2*2. including two different cassette option.
> so now we are at 4. imagine the fun for the neutral car remembering who's riding what and when.
> As for just getting a wheel later from the team car. going from 0-50 is not that much fun in the first place after a wheel change and then chase back on. Now you want me to do it twice? eff that.


How many tire/wheel changes actually use the neutral support wheels? It seems like every time Paul and Phil (note how I wove that other thread in ) say someone has flat, no more than 15 seconds later the actual team car is there. Now, this perhaps isn't the case for the lower-ranked riders on a team, nor is it perhaps the case in the mountains, but I wonder if teams in general would really care if the neutral support had their specific disc configuration "in stock" or not.


----------



## eriku16

SwiftSolo said:


> With your vast experience on hydro road discs racing against rim brakes, do share your knowledge and first hand experience with us. I'm guessing that you use rim brakes downhill racing ( mountain biking) as well ? Let us know how that is working out for you!


Ok, expert, since you have VAST knowledge on the subject. With descending, the less one brakes the faster the decent. It's about attaining the max terminal velocity that a rider can achieve. When you are up against against the limits of wits, drag and traction, braking late on a disc won't produce any magic. What good is a disc when you got a fearless, heavier rider faster than a lighter one?


----------



## SwiftSolo

Inevitably, the Real Men don't need consistent and predictable braking argument has raised its' head. 

See, the thing is that, dead guys who don't make that hairpin don't get on the podium. It is true that a 45 lb rider will likely not be as fast downhill as a 150 lb rider and you were right of top of that. However, both will learn to go faster when unpredictability is removed from the braking formula.

It is also true that those who ride where braking is unnecessary will see no benefit from discs.

If you do ride in the mountains, get back to us when you have some experience on road hydro discs--you know--assuming you encounter the rare occasion when you have to brake. 



eriku16 said:


> Ok, expert, since you have VAST knowledge on the subject. With descending, the less one brakes the faster the decent. It's about attaining the max terminal velocity that a rider can achieve. When you are up against against the limits of wits, drag and traction, braking late on a disc won't produce any magic. What good is a disc when you got a fearless, heavier rider faster than a lighter one?


----------



## 32and3cross

SwiftSolo said:


> Inevitably, the Real Men don't need consistent and predictable braking argument has raised its' head.
> 
> See, the thing is that, dead guys who don't make that hairpin don't get on the podium. It is true that a 45 lb rider will likely not be as fast downhill as a 150 lb rider and you were right of top of that. However, both will learn to go faster when unpredictability is removed from the braking formula.
> 
> It is also true that those who ride where braking is unnecessary will see no benefit from discs.
> 
> If you do ride in the mountains, get back to us when you have some experience on road hydro discs--you know--assuming you encounter the rare occasion when you have to brake.


Standard rim brakes are not unpredictable. 

If the race was to the base of the descent between two riders of equal, skill one with rim brakes and one with discs, then this argument that they provide enough of an advantage to out weight the gigantic pain in the ass they will be to deal with. 

However races rarely finish down hill and a bad descender with discs will still get beat down the hill but a more skill descender with rim brakes.


----------



## cxwrench

32and3cross said:


> Standard rim brakes are not unpredictable.
> 
> If the race was to the base of the decent between two riders of equal skill one with rim brakes one with discs then this argument that they provide enough of an advantage to out weight the gigantic pain in the ass they will be to deal with.
> 
> However races rarely finish down hill and a bad descender with discs will still get beat down the hill but a more skill descender withe rim brakes.


^ This ^ Disc brakes are not going to win any races for anyone. They won't let anyone go 'faster'. They will allow later braking, but not by much. Not enough to allow anyone to get away far enough that they wouldn't be caught quickly. It would end up being a slight yo-yo effect at best. Some disc brake equipped guys might get a slight gap on certain corners, then get caught again. There is way more difference in downhill speed between the great descenders and the crappy ones than there is between rim and disc brakes. Gusy like Jens, & Fabian are so much faster than most of the guys and you don't see them winning many stages, do you?


----------



## aclinjury

cxwrench said:


> Wow...you're amazingly out of touch w/ the realities of racing and team/neutral support. If you think a neutral mechanic is going to jump out of the car w/ a wheel and a handful of rotors, and a lockring wrench, run to the bike, take a quick look and determine which rotor he needs to mount, then install it, THEN put the wheel on the bike...hoping that the brake isn't dragging much.
> 
> IMO going to disc brakes on race bikes would all but end wheel changes. I think we'd see it force a change to doing bike changes anytime something like a flat happened. It's really hard to say, maybe one of the 'Big 3' will come up w/ something that makes wheels changes easy. _Maybe_ they'll all agree on rotor size and manage to get the wheel manufacturers to produce wheels that all have the rotor in exactly the same place _for real_. Theoretically they're all in the same place now, but I can tell you they're not. A few .001's makes all the difference. And the bike companies have to play nice too...they'll have to get more accurate w/ caliper mounts.
> 
> In the end going to discs on race bikes is going to cost the industry metric sh*t tons of $$$...for something that isn't exactly needed. There is no doubt that disc brakes are amazing. I've ridden the new Domane w/ Di2 and Shimano discs...incredible. But...are pro teams/racers/bike sponsors going to deal w/ what it would take to get the whole peloton on them?



Stop making too much sense based on real world experience, dammit!

But like said, the fattest wallet will win at the end of the day, and if the fat wallets want disc, they'll get their way regardless. I will look forward to the day that RBR will have a "Brakes" sub-forum just like Mtbr.com. "Bleeding and adjusting calipers" should be a popular topics, so will "My brakes are making too much noise". Fun.


----------



## aclinjury

cxwrench said:


> ^ This ^ Disc brakes are not going to win any races for anyone. They won't let anyone go 'faster'. They will allow later braking, but not by much. Not enough to allow anyone to get away far enough that they wouldn't be caught quickly. It would end up being a slight yo-yo effect at best. Some disc brake equipped guys might get a slight gap on certain corners, then get caught again. There is way more difference in downhill speed between the great descenders and the crappy ones than there is between rim and disc brakes. Gusy like Jens, & Fabian are so much faster than most of the guys and you don't see them winning many stages, do you?


common sense strikes again!

In top level motorcycle racing, better brakes often do not mean better lap times. What better brakes (AND suspension, AND skills, AND balls!) may do is allow a skilled rider to overtake his opponent into a corner by braking deeper into a corner. But overtaking on the brakes is a VERY advanced technique that if all the weekend warriors Joes in here or even the pro cycling racers think they can do it on a regular basis AND survive,.. oh boy they will have a short career.

In GP racing, it is the smaller 250cc bikes that go around sweeping corners FASTER than the bigger bikes with their bigger brakes (but the bigger bikes will blow the smaller ones on the throttle, but this is not our point of relevance), and every motorcycle racer know since kidhood that if you want to go fast, then you preserve momentum. Superior braking is advantageous mainly in overtaking, but in cycling,.. overtaking in a descent is *NOT* the modality to winning. In fact, even in motorcycle racing, overtaking does not happen at every turn. But apparently, non-racers clubbies think disc is some sort of ingredient to going faster. pfff.

In downhill racing, Sam Hills uses *smaller* brakes than some of his competitors because Hills uses skills to go fast around corners, and to go fast, you need to apply skills and let go of the brakes.

...now I hope that the disc- advocates don't take what I just wrote completely out of context and raise a silly comparison like, "Are you saying that disc is not as good as rim brakes? If so why do F1 cars use disc and not rim brakes?".


----------



## SwiftSolo

cxwrench said:


> ^ This ^ Disc brakes are not going to win any races for anyone. They won't let anyone go 'faster'. They will allow later braking, but not by much. Not enough to allow anyone to get away far enough that they wouldn't be caught quickly. It would end up being a slight yo-yo effect at best. Some disc brake equipped guys might get a slight gap on certain corners, then get caught again. There is way more difference in downhill speed between the great descenders and the crappy ones than there is between rim and disc brakes. Gusy like Jens, & Fabian are so much faster than most of the guys and you don't see them winning many stages, do you?


And that folks, is the reason that they've never caught on in MTB downhill racing, you know, except for a handful of idiots that don't know anything.

That takes us back to the beginning of the conversation a couple of days ago. Do disc brakes belong in the pro peloton? - Page 2


----------



## aclinjury

Folks, let's face it, hydro disc allows such great modulation, so great that we rarely see mtb bikers lock up his rear wheel and skid around corners like a bunch of rookies out to ruin and errode the trails, right? Nevermind, that's not right.

But folks, hydro disc are used by the hardcore downhillers to nicely modulate their speed as they charge into a corner, right? ugh..,hmm... I wonder why so many downhillers lock their wheel to skid around a corner to turn their bikes quickly then? So much for modulation.

And while we're comparing downhilling and road racing because the two are so similar, let's start using full face and knee and elbow pads too because if the downhillers use them, by golly it must apply to roadies.

But folks, if anything, hydro disc are so much more simple and *reliable*, that if anything, we should convert to hydro disc for this reason alone. And I guess that is why Mtbr.com has a whole sub-forum called Brake Time dedicated to issues about hydro disc brakes? But just to be sure that I wasn't just conjecturing out of thin air, I paid a quick visit to Mtbr.com Brake Time forum and peak at the 1st page for fun:



> *Pistons not moving on Hope mono M4*
> 
> *Shimano BR-M395 Hydraulic Brake lever leaking*
> 
> *New to disc brakes - alignment question*
> 
> *Elixer 3 locked up!*
> 
> *Shimano XT pad fail*
> 
> *rear brakes almost useless!*
> 
> *rear brake line snapping at clamp*
> 
> *Dirty brake fluid*



Now I don't know about you pedicured roadies in here (who at the first sign of trouble would go straight to the cell and dial the wife), but I still have my bleeding kits for Shimano, Magura, Hope, and mineral and DOT fluids that I accumulated through my years of mtb'ing. But what the hell do I know about hydro disc. I mean, according to the experts in here, they're so much more reliable than cabled actuated rim brakes. You roadies have fun.


----------



## T K

I was in my LBS about a year ago. Had a 20 minute conversation with the owner while he was bleeding some brakes on a mountain bike. I know zero about bicycle disc brakes. I asked after a while, does it always take so long? He said it can be a pain. I thought to myself, glad I don't ride mountain bikes. Don't want to deal with that sh!t. At no time ever riding road bikes have I thought, gee, I sure wish my brakes worked better. Legs, lungs, yes. Brakes, never a thought. I guess some guys just need to justify getting some new tech on their machine. The simplicity of a bicycle is where the beauty is to some of us. I'll put road disc in the road tubeless camp. If you think you need it great. A lot of us, and I'm sure including some pros, just don't see the benefits after weighing out the thing.
I am pro compact disc though. Rush's greatest hits, yes please!


----------



## 32and3cross

SwiftSolo said:


> And that folks, is the reason that they've never caught on in MTB downhill racing, you know, except for a handful of idiots that don't know anything.
> 
> That takes us back to the beginning of the conversation a couple of days ago. Do disc brakes belong in the pro peloton? - Page 2


Your pretty dense arn't you all you did was prove the argument that the ONLY place they truly make a huge difference in a race that is only about speed (and skill) going downhill.


----------



## SwiftSolo

32and3cross said:


> Your pretty dense arn't you all you did was prove the argument that the ONLY place they truly make a huge difference in a race that is only about speed (and skill) going downhill.


Well it is true that they don't make you faster going uphill. But no, all of mountain biking, including cross country, is dominated by disc brakes. These guys typically do exactly the same amount of up and down.


----------



## cxwrench

SwiftSolo said:


> Well it is true that they don't make you faster going uphill. But no, all of mountain biking, including cross country, is dominated by disc brakes. These guys typically do exactly the same amount of up and down.


There are a variety of reasons that disc brakes work great on mountain bikes. If you're so out of touch that you need someone to list them and why it's different than road racing, lemme know.


----------



## MR_GRUMPY

I can't wait to see the first wheel change from a neutral support vehicle.
.


----------



## cxwrench

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I can't wait to see the first wheel change from a neutral support vehicle.
> .


Exactly...


----------



## MR_GRUMPY

There'll be a contest to see which rider throws his bike the farthest.
.


----------



## SwiftSolo

cxwrench said:


> There are a variety of reasons that disc brakes work great on mountain bikes. If you're so out of touch that you need someone to list them and why it's different than road racing, lemme know.


You know, I'm trying to keep you guys from suffering the embarrassment I (and many many others) went through when discs came out on mountain bikes. V brakes had only been around for awhile and they were the first brakes that any major player had produced that were worth a crap. 

When discs showed up there were so many potential problems not counting the seeming endless violations of the principles of physics that I thought they were a stupid idea. For a year after they hit the market I resisted in spite of the loss of some of my previous downhill reputation (among riding partners). About that time the first inertial shocks came out and a friend with a Lefty wanted to try my bike because I bought a set of these forks. His Lefty had mechanical disc brakes and after the first technical downhill I realized the error in my thinking.

I went through a similar degradation of sharp hairpin downhill skills when I shifted to 303 tubulars. Stopping predictability and consistency was reduced and my speed through the hairpins with it (yes I had the right pads and the wide version of eebrakes). Most of the others I ride with opted to stay with aluminum rims.

The two groups I ride with are mostly climbers and jointly we are not much interested in anything out of the mountains. I have arthritis in my hands and long winding descents with lots of hairpins now cause pain, especially after the rides are over. I decided to go to hydro discs because I knew they'd have better power (especially in the rain) and hoped it would help solve the hand issue for my upcoming trip to the Dolomites. It did.

The other unexpected thing it did is to enhance my descending ability to it's highest level in sharp hairpins since I began racing these guys. My trip was with the fastest of our group (23 years my junior) and we did many of the famous passes. By the third descent of the first day (in the Sella Group) I had a pretty good handle on these discs and he could no longer drop me for the first time ever. There is no question in either his mind or mine that I became significantly faster through the hairpins.

Now (15 years after learning my lesson on MTB discs) I see folks making the same lame arguments that I did. When attempts to discredit this innovation on functional issues are disproven the argument moves on to safety issues and then on to dissimilarity issues. When those are gone folks either give them a try, keep their mouths shut, or move to personal attacks that include "if you are too stupid to know the answer it's not worth telling you"--the old girlfriend during her period approach. 

I have had much respect for your technical opinions in the past and am rather surprised to see your opposition to something that is clearly superior. I expected the indoctrinated younger majority to stay with variations of the "vast capitalist conspiracy" argument that they were indoctrinated with in school. I assumed you were in your late fifties and too old to have been "educated" by the hippies of the 70s who infiltrated the education system in the mid 80's? Was I wrong?


----------



## aclinjury

circular saw blade for the win!


----------



## BikeLayne

aclinjury said:


> circular saw blade for the win!
> 
> View attachment 298651


The Predator would want disc brakes like that.


----------



## BikeLayne

MR_GRUMPY said:


> There'll be a contest to see which rider throws his bike the farthest.
> .


I saw Kittel power bomb his bike when his carbon handle bars snapped off in the sprint. Brakes could bring out the same emotions in the right situation.


----------



## aclinjury

t


BikeLayne said:


> The Predator would want disc brakes like that.


only The Predator with fingers made of adamantium can catch such blade.

For regular Joe Cyclists, trying to catch such blade will result in this:

*Official Cut off your finger with Disc Brakes Thread*


















Juicy stuff.


----------



## T K

OK, thread over!!!!


----------



## BikeLayne

aclinjury said:


> t
> 
> only The Predator with fingers made of adamantium can catch such blade.
> 
> For regular Joe Cyclists, trying to catch such blade will result in this:
> 
> *Official Cut off your finger with Disc Brakes Thread*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Juicy stuff.


ouch!


----------



## BikeLayne

My bike does not have disc brakes so for me it's just all in fun. If the Pro's want disc brakes then fine with me. They are the ones that peddle for pay.


----------



## cxwrench

BikeLayne said:


> My bike does not have disc brakes so for me it's just all in fun. If the Pro's want disc brakes then fine with me. They are the ones that *peddle* for pay.


I thought they rode bikes...


----------



## BikeLayne

cxwrench said:


> I thought they rode bikes...


for a while


----------



## Whacked

Why are people so afraid of disk rotors? Only a idiot would put fingers near there while the tire is spinning, like keep them out of spokes to while you're at it.

I'd be more worried about chainrings. THAT would be a messy wound. At least with disks, superglue the wound together and move on.

Other than idiocy, just how many accidents with rotors are there?

Disks on pro race bikes is comming, like it or not. Manufacturers do not care how much $$$ you have tied into wheelsets, they want to sell product. More & more road and CX bikes are comming equipped with disks. Pro racers sell product just by being seen using or promoting equipment. The math isn't hard. May take awhile but its comming and technology will improve so all your arguments againt are meaningless.


----------



## BikeLayne

Whacked said:


> Why are people so afraid of disk rotors? Only a idiot would put fingers near there while the tire is spinning, like keep them out of spokes to while you're at it.
> 
> I'd be more worried about chainrings. THAT would be a messy wound. At least with disks, superglue the wound together and move on.
> 
> Other than idiocy, just how many accidents with rotors are there?
> 
> Disks on pro race bikes is comming, like it or not. Manufacturers do not care how much $$$ you have tied into wheelsets, they want to sell product. More & more road and CX bikes are comming equipped with disks. Pro racers sell product just by being seen using or promoting equipment. The math isn't hard. May take awhile but its comming and technology will improve so all your arguments againt are meaningless.


Like I said the Pro's can ride disc brakes as they please. It's just up to them. My Lighthouse should be very nice for decades so I am good. My brakes work fine. I do stop a the signal in front of the fire station but the wheels have not burst into flames yet but I figure the firemen can squirt some water on it if they ever do.


----------



## cbk57

Back onto the topic now, discs in the peloton. As far as use goes to the pro's I don't think it will make any difference to them. What I mean is that there are already large discrepancies in the peloton on braking. The spread between a lightweight climber and a domestique is at least 30 pounds if not 40 plus. So the breaking differences now would be pretty substantial. Also these guys live on their bikes and once they have a feel they will use the right amount of brake under the circumstances. They will only use as much break as they can or as they need under a given circumstance. I don't think it will make any difference if some have disks and some don't. Pro's will figure it out really fast. You can only break as much as the guy in front of you unless you are on the front or solo in a break. Someone that races constantly in a peloton will have an instinctive feel for this really quickly.

I think the only difference is the logistical mess, wheel changes and discs for all the team bikes some of the team bikes or whatever the mix. I suspect for the sake of sanity a team will have to be all disk or all rim brake. They may not be able to use neutral support or as Mavic has done at times there will be bikes ready to go on the neutral car and the rider will take a complete bike not a wheel change.


----------



## thumper8888

OK, this is data. But not much, and is clearly an outlier. You note that your riding groups only ride mountains. The majority of riders, perhaps the vast majority, including myself, never do.
Indeed, riding on one minute to 5 minute rollers I can go for whole weeks without getting on my brakes hard, and have done more than half a dozen races and a couple of racy centuries this year without getting on my brakes hard.
Many races, even on the pro tour, don't involve technical descents. In short, discs are of no benefit at all for many races, and would likely grab back only a few seconds on a handful of stages, while creating as much as 10 watts of drag at race speeds by at least one estimate I've seen.
It's probably much less in a pack, mind you, perhaps a couple of watts. But that drag is always there to some degree.
There is no question, not even faintly, that discs will do anything for the vast majority of amateur racers.
This thread is about the pro peloton, though, and at best the jury's out on that. I want to see real data, not just about a specific descent, but about the gains and losses over an entire stage race.
It seems unlikely that the discs would come out on top, but nearly as unlikely that we will see a proper analysis of it, though.
I foresee a bunch more opining here and elsewhere, then a marketing-driven decision.




SwiftSolo said:


> You know, I'm trying to keep you guys from suffering the embarrassment I (and many many others) went through when discs came out on mountain bikes. V brakes had only been around for awhile and they were the first brakes that any major player had produced that were worth a crap.
> 
> When discs showed up there were so many potential problems not counting the seeming endless violations of the principles of physics that I thought they were a stupid idea. For a year after they hit the market I resisted in spite of the loss of some of my previous downhill reputation (among riding partners). About that time the first inertial shocks came out and a friend with a Lefty wanted to try my bike because I bought a set of these forks. His Lefty had mechanical disc brakes and after the first technical downhill I realized the error in my thinking.
> 
> I went through a similar degradation of sharp hairpin downhill skills when I shifted to 303 tubulars. Stopping predictability and consistency was reduced and my speed through the hairpins with it (yes I had the right pads and the wide version of eebrakes). Most of the others I ride with opted to stay with aluminum rims.
> 
> The two groups I ride with are mostly climbers and jointly we are not much interested in anything out of the mountains. I have arthritis in my hands and long winding descents with lots of hairpins now cause pain, especially after the rides are over. I decided to go to hydro discs because I knew they'd have better power (especially in the rain) and hoped it would help solve the hand issue for my upcoming trip to the Dolomites. It did.
> 
> The other unexpected thing it did is to enhance my descending ability to it's highest level in sharp hairpins since I began racing these guys. My trip was with the fastest of our group (23 years my junior) and we did many of the famous passes. By the third descent of the first day (in the Sella Group) I had a pretty good handle on these discs and he could no longer drop me for the first time ever. There is no question in either his mind or mine that I became significantly faster through the hairpins.
> 
> Now (15 years after learning my lesson on MTB discs) I see folks making the same lame arguments that I did. When attempts to discredit this innovation on functional issues are disproven the argument moves on to safety issues and then on to dissimilarity issues. When those are gone folks either give them a try, keep their mouths shut, or move to personal attacks that include "if you are too stupid to know the answer it's not worth telling you"--the old girlfriend during her period approach.
> 
> I have had much respect for your technical opinions in the past and am rather surprised to see your opposition to something that is clearly superior. I expected the indoctrinated younger majority to stay with variations of the "vast capitalist conspiracy" argument that they were indoctrinated with in school. I assumed you were in your late fifties and too old to have been "educated" by the hippies of the 70s who infiltrated the education system in the mid 80's? Was I wrong?


----------



## SwiftSolo

After seeing our guide really screw up a finger on our patagonia trip (doing maintenance), I make sure I keep the edges down with a stone from time to time on both my mountain and road bike. I am at a loss as to why manufacturers think they can't put a 20/1000 radius on discs during manufacture. Anyone who does get cut only does so once but I can think of no rational reason for them to come sharp new. Dirt contamination issues may have something to do with the reasoning? 

You are right about chainrings. They get pretty sharp in a reasonably short period.


Whacked said:


> Why are people so afraid of disk rotors? Only a idiot would put fingers near there while the tire is spinning, like keep them out of spokes to while you're at it.
> 
> I'd be more worried about chainrings. THAT would be a messy wound. At least with disks, superglue the wound together and move on.
> 
> Other than idiocy, just how many accidents with rotors are there?
> 
> Disks on pro race bikes is comming, like it or not. Manufacturers do not care how much $$$ you have tied into wheelsets, they want to sell product. More & more road and CX bikes are comming equipped with disks. Pro racers sell product just by being seen using or promoting equipment. The math isn't hard. May take awhile but its comming and technology will improve so all your arguments againt are meaningless.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Clearly you are right that those who race only the flats and small rollers really don't need serious brakes. However, most of the majors tours have several mountain stages with high speed descents through multiple hairpins. It requires a lot of kilojoules of power on a downhill when you are continually clawing your way back on the wheel of the guy you're chasing if he's faster through the turn. It often turns into a series of sprints for the guy slower through the hairpins--the worst possible waste of energy.

But lets talk about drag. 

My hi-mod uses mostly internal routing of both hydro lines and di2 cables, however, they still felt compelled to make it possible to convert to mechanical discs if the owner wanted. As soon as they are accepted, look for high end bikes to go completely internal from the shifters to the derailleurs and to the disc calipers. All lines will go inside of the bars and through the stem. 
The front hydro line will enter the indexed steerer tube and exit the fork leg at the calipers. Design provisions for the di2 cables and rear hydro line will likely be made in the head tube to deal with routing and the needed steering slack. Like current di2, all shifting lines will exit the frame at the shifters. The rear hydro line will exit at the rear calipers. The elimination of all external cables, cable stops, and front and rear rim brakes will reduce frontal area and associated drag significantly. The loss of the cable frontal area and the front calipers will reduce frontal area induced drag as well as turbulence induced drag. What remains is the frontal area of the caliper, and the discs. I believe that if you do the math you'll see that frontal area will in fact be reduced from any current all mechanical bike. Turbulence should also be reduced. Cross winds are another matter and will depend on the angle and the rotational speed of both test bikes. I suspect that at some speed, rotating spokes close together would create more total drag than a solid disc. I'm not sure how far that impact goes out as spokes are not parallel and a spoked wheel clearly has less cross wind drag overall than a solid disc wheel.

Meaningful testing will have to be done not only with both wheels rotating at speed, but with rider on board both pedaling and static. Cross wind testing will have to be done from both sides with rider and wheels at speed.

The only testing that I've heard of suggested an impact as high as "possibly 10 watts" without any mention of internal routing nor whether a rider was on board. In addition, it did not mention whether the wheels were rotating. Another words, If I'm correct about the testing to date, they were not serious about learning anything meaningful.


thumper8888 said:


> OK, this is data. But not much, and is clearly an outlier. You note that your riding groups only ride mountains. The majority of riders, perhaps the vast majority, including myself, never do.
> Indeed, riding on one minute to 5 minute rollers I can go for whole weeks without getting on my brakes hard, and have done more than half a dozen races and a couple of racy centuries this year without getting on my brakes hard.
> Many races, even on the pro tour, don't involve technical descents. In short, discs are of no benefit at all for many races, and would likely grab back only a few seconds on a handful of stages, while creating as much as 10 watts of drag at race speeds by at least one estimate I've seen.
> It's probably much less in a pack, mind you, perhaps a couple of watts. But that drag is always there to some degree.
> There is no question, not even faintly, that discs will do anything for the vast majority of amateur racers.
> This thread is about the pro peloton, though, and at best the jury's out on that. I want to see real data, not just about a specific descent, but about the gains and losses over an entire stage race.
> It seems unlikely that the discs would come out on top, but nearly as unlikely that we will see a proper analysis of it, though.
> I foresee a bunch more opining here and elsewhere, then a marketing-driven decision.


----------



## 55x11

well, mountain biking and road cycling is a bit different no?
Aerodynamics (important for road cycling, less so for MTB), steep technical turns on single track (vs. more gradual, gentle paved roads) need for breaking power, quick wheel change, etc.

To me this has all the signs of the solutions in search of a problem. It looks as if industry needs to keep feeding fads that will keep selling more upgrades (or make existing bikes obsolete) and rushes into a lot of areas without much demand from the general cyclists or pros. Electronic shifting, 11-speed, tubeless tires, disk/hydraulic brakes, bottom bracket-mounted brakes, millions of bottom bracket standards, you name it. Some innovation in the past made a great deal of practical sense. But a lot of the recent developments do not, at leas to me, and seem a bit "forced".


----------



## SwiftSolo

It's that vast capitalist conspiracy you learned about in school! 

Here's a look at the relaxed and gentle road turns on the Stelvio (like many of the descents in the Giro).


55x11 said:


> well, mountain biking and road cycling is a bit different no?
> Aerodynamics (important for road cycling, less so for MTB), steep technical turns on single track (vs. more gradual, gentle paved roads) need for breaking power, quick wheel change, etc.
> 
> To me this has all the signs of the solutions in search of a problem. It looks as if industry needs to keep feeding fads that will keep selling more upgrades (or make existing bikes obsolete) and rushes into a lot of areas without much demand from the general cyclists or pros. Electronic shifting, 11-speed, tubeless tires, disk/hydraulic brakes, bottom bracket-mounted brakes, millions of bottom bracket standards, you name it. Some innovation in the past made a great deal of practical sense. But a lot of the recent developments do not, at leas to me, and seem a bit "forced".


----------



## BikeLayne

SwiftSolo said:


> It's that vast capitalist conspiracy you learned about in school!
> 
> Here's a look at the relaxed and gentle road turns on the Stelvio (like many of the descents in the Giro).


. Looks more fun then my after work 20 miler.


----------



## SwimCycle09

The dumb part of this article was claiming riders in crashes with disc equipped bikes would get burns from the heat created on rotors from descending. Really??? burns first....I would be far more concerned about getting sliced by a spinning rotor, especially if a wheel gets loose. Burned...honestly ridiculous as first thought for crashes with disc equipped bikes


----------



## fatcitywicked

I still think the benefits of disc brakes for the pro peleton are dubious. That's why the pros are not clamoring for disc brakes. I have a road bike with hope v-twins that I use for 90% of my riding and commuting and I do find that the modulation, consistency and power are better than rim brakes, but none of those would give me any kind of advantage in a road race. Unless every finish line was at the bottom of an alpine pass bicycle races are not won on the brakes.


----------



## OnTheRivet

I come at this as I die hard disc brake fan and early adopter on the MTB. All my MTB's have disc. I race XC and Enduro MTB and on the road at a pretty high level. In 25 years of road riding (racing) I have NEVER thought "I need better road brakes" and I have ridden Mountain passes in the Alps and California Sierras. Just in the last year I have had my MTB brakes fade at the end of a long (steep) downhill which had me changing brake brands yet I've never had an issue on the road. This is why I'm left wondering" who are these people that are clamoring for road discs and how do they ride their bikes that they need more power and modulation than whats currently available?"


----------



## ewarnerusa

I'd say many of the advances in bike technology in the last several decades were unnecessary and were solutions in search of a problem. But the good improvements eventually became the standard when they work better, regardless of if they were ever actually needed. That's just technological progression at work; natural selection if you will. There were many that thought disc brakes were totally unnecessary for XC mountain biking, too. 

I'd say chainrings are even more "potentially dangerous" than a disc rotor. Did you see Ryan Trebon's leg after CX Worlds last season?
https://twitter.com/ryantrebon/status/430041511343185920


----------



## dwt

No time to review entire thread to see if this had been posted. Here's an article which brings up possibility of losing hydro brake fluid due to heat while descending. 

http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco-fever/disco-fever.html


----------



## BikeLayne

dwt said:


> No time to review entire thread to see if this had been posted. Here's an article which brings up possibility of losing hydro brake fluid due to heat while descending.
> 
> Disc Brakes vs. rim brakes and cantilever brakes


 I just don't remember disc brakes back then. I suppose I just paid no attention to them or maybe the shops just did not have them around. Anyway my current brakes work fine so I will just skip it.


----------



## eriku16

ewarnerusa said:


> I'd say many of the advances in bike technology in the last several decades were unnecessary and were solutions in search of a problem. But the good improvements eventually became the standard when they work better, regardless of if they were ever actually needed. That's just technological progression at work; natural selection if you will. There were many that thought disc brakes were totally unnecessary for XC mountain biking, too.


From the interesting photos and descriptions from the catalog pages below, most of the advantages of disc brakes stated then are in this thread. Discs (hydro and mechanical) brakes on road bikes have existed and evolved for over 40 years. Little has changed other than weight, materials and streamlining and resemble designs of today.

Besides having no real world performance benefit in racing, the lack of a universal agreed ((Hah!) never will happen) standards and logistical issues is why I doubt if ever disc brakes will become the norm in the peloton.

Shimano hydraulic lever from 1969...










1975 Shimano catalog...


----------



## Gnarly 928

Maybe we could go the route of Eric Buell Racing (motos)...put the disc way out next to the rim...best of both worlds.... Say, isn't that what we already have, sort of? 

Whatever, it's still all about the available traction...Rim, Disc whatever...any decent brake can lock up the wheel and overcome the available traction of a normal race tire...and any decent cyclist can feel this and modulate the pressure of his/her fingers..

Ten pound bikes for everyday use...Hmmm..I'd rather have a slightly heavier bike that isn't likely to be broken in day to day use...I raced some lightly built bikes that were too fragile for my liking...My Look with carbon dropouts...I hated putting that on a car rack that used a fork lock...I broke the der. hanger by rolling it backwards and the chain flopped off...snapo...ruined frame in a heartbeat. I was always messing with the seatpost because it was 'torque limited' being all carbon... I didn't care for my Scott CR1...it just felt flimsy, especially on the descents...
I now ride an Eye-talian brand, but made in the East, with titanium inserts where it needs periodic adjustment or component replacement....When away on a race trip or an extended training camp, I can adjust and maintain my bike without worry or a super-sensitive torque wrench...and I don't worry about cross threading an important part and trashing an expensive frame... I'll take a lb or two more for dependability and peace of mind... I am glad we don't have a weight war going on pro bikes.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

From BikeRadar

Shimano R785 electric/hydraulic road system review - BikeRadar

"There’s still a question of whether or not hydraulic brakes are the way forward, but the main issue that the naysayers have is that there isn’t any real ‘need’ for more powerful braking. Shimano understand this, so the point of these new brakes isn’t improved power but better feel and consistency, regardless of conditions."

Maybe pros would not crash so much on flat stages if they didn't have horrible carbon braking surfaces to deal with.

"In offering one possible solution to the problem, Bruyneel said, “I think it’s time to start to consider some different equipment. If you look at the bikes, they’ve become lighter and lighter, so why not consider disc brakes? They’re heavier, but I think it would be perfectly possible. And discs definitely brake a lot better. I think with the light equipment and carbon rims (regular brakes) are sometimes a problem in the rain.”
Read more at Inside the Tour with John Wilcockson: What caused the crashes? - VeloNews.com


----------



## aclinjury

Maximus_XXIV said:


> From BikeRadar
> 
> Shimano R785 electric/hydraulic road system review - BikeRadar
> 
> "There’s still a question of whether or not hydraulic brakes are the way forward, but the main issue that the naysayers have is that there isn’t any real ‘need’ for more powerful braking. Shimano understand this, so the point of these new brakes isn’t improved power but better feel and consistency, regardless of conditions."
> 
> Maybe pros would not crash so much on flat stages if they didn't have horrible carbon braking surfaces to deal with.
> 
> "In offering one possible solution to the problem, Bruyneel said, “I think it’s time to start to consider some different equipment. If you look at the bikes, they’ve become lighter and lighter, so why not consider disc brakes? They’re heavier, but I think it would be perfectly possible. And discs definitely brake a lot better. I think with the light equipment and carbon rims (regular brakes) are sometimes a problem in the rain.”
> Read more at Inside the Tour with John Wilcockson: What caused the crashes? - VeloNews.com


Bike Radar is hardly an authoritative voice on hydro disc. Is there any product review that, when published on that site, doesn't get a glowing review?

Regarding Bruyneel. I read thru that Velonews article. And Bruyneel's main contention to all the crashes are:
- guys operating under stress
- teams are moving up thru the peloton, causing a higher chances of a crash
- more teams and riders then there are tarmac available
- roads have improved, so speed are up

Bruyneel's mention of disc brakes is at best characterized as a concession to balance out the already lightweight bikes, and possible better performance on carbon rims (and carbon rims are something, IMO, that is another problem looking for solution, as far as the non-racing public goes, but this is another discussion). Bruyneel did not emphatically endorse disc brake like you're making him out to be, and notice he said:



> I think with the light equipment and carbon rims (regular brakes) are sometimes a problem in the rain


He doesn't particularly think nor is he telling us that rim brakes are what he thinks is the issue, but he might have been saying between the lack of weight of the bikes and the carbon rims, these are what is causing *some* of the crashes, and furthermore, he is saying they (the combination of lightweight, rim brakes, and carbon rims) are *sometimes* a problem in the rain.

But overall, Bruyneel's point about the crashes are not because of rim brakes, nor does he think disc brakes will come anywhere close to solving all the crashes.

If you ever watch motorcycle racing, you will understand that when guys are fighting for an limited amount of tarmac space, doing so at high speed, under stress,.. crashes *will* happen, regardless of skill levels or equipment used. Let's assume that the peloton will eventually use disc, what makes you think that some of the already aggressive riders in the peloton will not be tempted to stuff another rider coming into a corner in a desparate attempt to overtake, but only to crash both riders out? Afterall, don't you think disc brakes (with the way they are being marketed) might just encourage such behavior from a rider that he wouldn't have otherwise not do? That is racing.

you said:


> _Maybe pros would not crash so much on flat stages if they didn't have horrible carbon braking surfaces to deal with_.


I will assume that you and I and many of the guys in here watch the same popular pro races, like Giro, TdF, Vuelta. Then let's not make fluffy assumption. Go ahead and pick out 10 crashes on the Giro or TdF flat stages, and point out, with reference or evidence to back it up, that the majority of these crashes is due to the lack of braking, not not due to guys fighting for limited space of available tarmac.

But back to civilian, weekend warrior status,.. back to club ride status.. how many guys are looking to stuff his fellow member going into a corner around an intersection? Betcha not many, or he'll be an outcast real quick.

In the meantime, hydro disc are not without problems. Perhaps Bike Radar should pay a visit to Mtbr.com and read their "Brake Time" subforum to get a more realistic picture of hydro disc. A whole subforum on hydro brakes don't exist if there aren't any real world problem, do you agree? Here is but a small sample of topics in that subforum (which I posted earlier in this discussion). So excuse me if I look at real world problems being reported and not a Bike Radar product review.



> *Pistons not moving on Hope mono M4
> 
> Shimano BR-M395 Hydraulic Brake lever leaking
> 
> New to disc brakes - alignment question
> 
> Elixer 3 locked up!
> 
> Shimano XT pad fail
> 
> rear brakes almost useless!
> 
> rear brake line snapping at clamp
> 
> Dirty brake fluid*



I will readily admit the superior application of disc brake on mountain bikes and in wet and muddy environment. But this applicaiton is superior not because of disc braking power nor even modulation (I have already shown that mtb riders do not modulated much, rather many prefer to lock up their tires and skid when faced with a hard braking situation, but skidding is not acceptable on the road). And furthermore, "modulation" itself is a subjective feeling resulting from the interaction between the leverage of the brake lever and the strength of a rider's pull on the lever, and that one rider's "_soft pull_" can be another's rider "_hard pull_". Modulation ability is hardly a nice and neat package that is applicable across the board for everyone. A mechanical system certan can be tuned to have whatever leverage pull ratio so desired.

I will also admit that if you like to ride carbon wheels, and especially carbon wheels in the rain, then disc is also better. But how many folks in here ride carbon in rain? Maybe I'm still old school with descending big mountains on 1400-1500g aluminum rims and caliper brakes?


----------



## BacDoc

Not sure where many of you get your info on MTB. I've seen some comments like:

"many prefer to lock up their tires and skid when faced with a hard braking situation"

This could not be further from the truth. Skidding is a big no no, associated with young kids or beginning riders who either have no clue on bike handling or lock up due to fear. Any avid rider or trail builder will tell you that skidding is a sign of lack of skill as well as potential to damage fragile parts of the trail. Some videos that show this for dramatic effect often get slammed for promoting poor trail etiquette.

As an experienced rider I can tell you that most of us that MTB try to never skid, skidding is like leaving trash on the trail.

Sorry for the hijack!


----------



## SwiftSolo

Technology seems to bring out all the x-spurts. This thread is a repeat of the opinions on why discs on mountain bikes could never work. They were as brilliant then as they are now.


BacDoc said:


> Not sure where many of you get your info on MTB. I've seen some comments like:
> 
> "many prefer to lock up their tires and skid when faced with a hard braking situation"
> 
> This could not be further from the truth. Skidding is a big no no, associated with young kids or beginning riders who either have no clue on bike handling or lock up due to fear. Any avid rider or trail builder will tell you that skidding is a sign of lack of skill as well as potential to damage fragile parts of the trail. Some videos that show this for dramatic effect often get slammed for promoting poor trail etiquette.
> 
> As an experienced rider I can tell you that most of us that MTB try to never skid, skidding is like leaving trash on the trail.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack!


----------



## T K

SwiftSolo said:


> Technology seems to bring out all the x-spurts. This thread is a repeat of the opinions on why discs on mountain bikes could never work. They were as brilliant then as they are now.


Yes. And it's a good thing we have brilliant minds here such as yours to tell us slack jawed yokels what we need. Thank you sir.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Never suggested in any of my posts that "slack jawed yokels" or anyone else needs anything. That is, anything but accurate information from those with actual experience with which they can make informed decisions. 

This thread has been woefully short on that and long on typical anti-technology, marketing conspiracy theories.

Few have considered the impact on the market of rational folks deciding to postpone purchasing new bikes until this thing sorts itself out. Currently, very few have spent enough time on road hydro discs to form a valid opinion.


T K said:


> Yes. And it's a good thing we have brilliant minds here such as yours to tell us slack jawed yokels what we need. Thank you sir.


----------



## 32and3cross

SwiftSolo said:


> Never suggested in any of my posts that "slack jawed yokels" or anyone else needs anything. That is, anything but accurate information from those with actual experience with which they can make informed decisions.
> 
> This thread has been woefully short on that and long on typical anti-technology, marketing conspiracy theories.
> 
> Few have considered the impact on the market of rational folks deciding to postpone purchasing new bikes until this thing sorts itself out. Currently, very few have spent enough time on road hydro discs to form a valid opinion.


And you don't seem to have spend enough time working in actual race conditions to have much to offer there but you were quick to discard the input form those who have so we have discarded your input as well.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Do share your road hydro disc actual race experience with us. It will clearly be better than my 1000 miles or so of climbing and descending experience with hydro discs--especially if it includes some of the steep descents of the tour or the giro.

You could have saved us a lot of trouble. My experience is limited to racing long time cycling friends (all with rim brakes) and the relative difference it has made in that situation.

I look forward to hearing your "actual knowledge".


32and3cross said:


> And you don't seem to have spend enough time working in actual race conditions to have much to offer there but you were quick to discard the input form those who have so we have discarded your input as well.


----------



## 32and3cross

SwiftSolo said:


> Do share your road hydro disc actual race experience with us. It will clearly be better than my 1000 miles or so of climbing and descending experience with hydro discs--especially if it includes some of the steep descents of the tour or the giro.
> 
> You could have saved us a lot of trouble. My experience is limited to racing long time cycling friends (all with rim brakes) and the relative difference it has made in that situation.
> 
> I look forward to hearing your "actual knowledge".


My actual knowledge comes from building up and maintaining a team with over 10 bikes that all have to work with interchangable wheels and have to be able to be readily serviced by support vehicles in a pro race. I also have set up (multiple) bikes with carbon wheels that were used in wet and dry on conditions over all sorts of roads. I don't claim to know a ton about hyro disc brakes aside from having them on my mtn bike but it seems I know a ton more than you about how they might fit into a racing set up. 

Discs will make it into the pro peloton but they won't make as much difference other than as sales gimmiks to get folks to buy them. No one will ever win a race just because they have discs.


----------



## SwiftSolo

32and3cross said:


> No one will ever win a race just because they have discs.


Since everyone in pro racing will have them, I can't see how anyone will argue with that.

I can't be sure but I suspect that 5 years from now hydro discs will fit into road racing quite well--much like integrated indexed shifting.

I'm hoping that we'll soon see some comparative stopping distance research (discs against rims, both wet and dry). My money is on discs in both cases, but only time will tell.


----------



## 32and3cross

SwiftSolo said:


> Since everyone in pro racing will have them, I can't see how anyone will argue with that.
> 
> I can't be sure but I suspect that 5 years from now hydro discs will fit into road racing quite well--much like integrated indexed shifting.
> 
> I'm hoping that we'll soon see some comparative stopping distance research (discs against rims, both wet and dry). My money is on discs in both cases, but only time will tell.


Typical side step


----------



## Whacked

aclinjury said:


> In the meantime, hydro disc are not without problems. Perhaps Bike Radar should pay a visit to Mtbr.com and read their "Brake Time" subforum to get a more realistic picture of hydro disc. A whole subforum on hydro brakes don't exist if there aren't any real world problem, do you agree? Here is but a small sample of topics in that subforum (which I posted earlier in this discussion). So excuse me if I look at real world problems being reported and not a Bike Radar product review.


Soooooo,....
Based on your logic.

If I go to the Tacoma Troubleshooting forum I can assume that all Tacoma's are garbage?

Lets keep it in perspective. For every issue with disk brakes, there are hundreds if not thousands, trouble free.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV

aclinjury said:


> In the meantime, hydro disc are not without problems. Perhaps Bike Radar should pay a visit to Mtbr.com and read their "Brake Time" subforum to get a more realistic picture of hydro disc. A whole subforum on hydro brakes don't exist if there aren't any real world problem, do you agree? Here is but a small sample of topics in that subforum (which I posted earlier in this discussion). So excuse me if I look at real world problems being reported and not a Bike Radar product review.


Did I mention that Bike Radar said discs were great? I just posted there comment on Shimano's intention for discs in the market place. I never said they would stop all crashes. I never even said they would stop most crashes. We know for a fact that carbon rims brake poorly when wet. This is a contributor to crashes. More reliable braking will stop some of those crashes.

Nice misrepresentation of MTBR's intentions and the Brake Time forum content. I would imagine the sub forum exists because brake technology change significantly and people wanted to talk about it.

Based on your logic, the below forums would not exist if they do not have real world problems. I am personally deeply saddened by the real world problems of beer...but my gosh, why do people ride bikes that are soooo very rife with real world problems?




> 27.5 - 650b(260 Viewing)
> 
> 29er Bikes(753 Viewing)
> 
> 29er Components(225 Viewing)
> 
> All Mountain(430 Viewing)
> 
> Apparel and Protection(169 Viewing)
> 
> Beer Forum(27 Viewing)
> 
> Beginner's Corner(617 Viewing)
> 
> Bike and Frame discussion(125 Viewing)
> 
> Bikepacking and Bike Expedition(46 Viewing)
> 
> Brake Time(361 Viewing)
> 
> Car & Biker(211 Viewing)
> 
> Cargo Bikes(18 Viewing)
> 
> Clydesdales/Tall Riders(54 Viewing)
> 
> Commuting(148 Viewing)
> 
> Cyclocross(115 Viewing)
> 
> Downhill - Freeride(279 Viewing)
> 
> Drivetrain - shifters, derailleurs, cranks(466 Viewing)
> 
> Endurance XC Racing(43 Viewing)
> 
> Enduro Racing(8 Viewing)
> 
> Families and Riding with Kids(125 Viewing)
> 
> Fat Bikes(439 Viewing)
> 
> Frame Building(73 Viewing)
> 
> General Discussion(684 Viewing)
> 
> GPS, HRM and Bike Computer(107 Viewing)
> 
> Internal Gear Hubs(51 Viewing)
> 
> Lights and Night Riding(91 Viewing)
> 
> Lights DIY - Do It Yourself(60 Viewing)
> 
> Nutrition and Hydration(34 Viewing)
> 
> NICA - High School - Collegiate Racing(3 Viewing)
> 
> Off Camber (off topic)(94 Viewing)
> 
> Photography for mountain bikers(13 Viewing)
> 
> Rider Down, injuries and recovery(110 Viewing)
> 
> Sea Otter Classic
> 
> Shocks and Suspension(468 Viewing)
> 
> Singlespeed(200 Viewing)
> 
> Tandem Mountain Bikes(12 Viewing)
> 
> Tooltime(131 Viewing)
> 
> Trail Building and Advocacy(33 Viewing)
> 
> Urban/DJ/Park(28 Viewing)
> 
> Vacations & Destinations(6 Viewing)
> 
> Videos and POV Cameras(83 Viewing)
> 
> Vintage, Retro, Classic(176 Viewing)
> 
> Weight Weenies(142 Viewing)
> 
> Wheels and Tires(452 Viewing)
> 
> Where are the Best Deals?(69 Viewing)
> 
> Women's Lounge(28 Viewing)
> 
> XC Racing and Training(139 Viewing)


A more representative view of Brake Time threads:




> Sticky Thread Sticky: Using Shimano Centerlock (or any other) rotors with another brand caliper
> longer hose for Hope EVO X2
> Good job! Hope brakes, why I use them.
> Avids still Squishy after bleed!
> Upgrading brakes
> TRP Spyke brakes???
> Rear Brake squishy until warmed up
> 22mm chain stay disc brake adapter
> 2014 Formula R1 Racing?
> How you store your bike and effect on brake performance
> Beware eBay BB7 and Rotor packages
> 2006 Iron Horse Azure Question
> Front disc brake rubbing.
> Magura 8 problems
> Noise from hydraulic brakes
> Hope Tech - braking power help
> Shortening Shimano XT hoses
> Shimano XT vs Magura MT2. Weight difference?
> Are Brake Therapy disc conversions still around?
> Sram XX brake lever problem
> Weird hydraulic brake sound!
> Brake cable routing question


----------



## aclinjury

BacDoc said:


> Not sure where many of you get your info on MTB. I've seen some comments like:
> 
> "many prefer to lock up their tires and skid when faced with a hard braking situation"
> 
> This could not be further from the truth. Skidding is a big no no, associated with young kids or beginning riders who either have no clue on bike handling or lock up due to fear. Any avid rider or trail builder will tell you that skidding is a sign of lack of skill as well as potential to damage fragile parts of the trail. Some videos that show this for dramatic effect often get slammed for promoting poor trail etiquette.
> 
> As an experienced rider I can tell you that most of us that MTB try to never skid, skidding is like leaving trash on the trail.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack!


I was an avid trail rider with a lean toward the downhill before I ever became a serious roadie. I saw plenty, plenty of people entering switchbacks fast (some intentionally, some unintentionally) and skidding their tires. It is *the* reason why so many matured mtbers emphasis no skidding so much despite most mtbers *try* not to skid. But in reality skidding is a fact on the dirt, much much more than on the tarmac.


----------



## aclinjury

Whacked said:


> Soooooo,....
> Based on your logic.
> 
> If I go to the Tacoma Troubleshooting forum I can assume that all Tacoma's are garbage?
> 
> Lets keep it in perspective. For every issue with disk brakes, there are hundreds if not thousands, trouble free.


Let me break down my logic. Is there a forum dedicated to rim brake issues on RBR? No there isn't one. Why isn't there one? It's is because most rim brake users do not post enough issues to warrant one. Now, why is there a dedicated forum on disc brake on Mtbr? The forum exists because there is a need for one based on real world people having real world issues that a rate that is disportionately more than the rate of rim brake users having issues with rim brakes. 

The perspective here is the _rate_ of issues. Notice that I did not say disc is garbage, did I.


----------



## aclinjury

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Did I mention that Bike Radar said discs were great? I just posted there comment on Shimano's intention for discs in the market place. I never said they would stop all crashes. I never even said they would stop most crashes. We know for a fact that carbon rims brake poorly when wet. This is a contributor to crashes. More reliable braking will stop some of those crashes.
> 
> Nice misrepresentation of MTBR's intentions and the Brake Time forum content. *I would imagine the sub forum exists because brake technology change significantly* and people wanted to talk about it.
> 
> Based on your logic, the below forums would not exist if they do not have real world problems. I am personally deeply saddened by the real world problems of beer...but my gosh, why do people ride bikes that are soooo very rife with real world problems?
> 
> A more representative view of Brake Time threads:


If you don't intend to reference articles as some sort of at least semi authoritative affirmation on disc brakes in a discussion about disc brakes, then why bother quoting them in the first place. If you don't reference them, you don't have to backtrack from them when they're break down. By backtracking or fluttering around, your position is only weaken.

And what exactly about hydro disc technology that has change significantly? Hydro disc has been around for a long time in the mbt world, and I'm still seeing the same issues with them today compared to 10-15 years ago. Same old issues, same old questions. Is this what the road world has to look forward to? No thanks, I rather not.


----------



## SwiftSolo

The neat thing about disc brakes is that it is unlikely that we believers will hold a gun to anyones' head and force them to make the change. 

It would be fun to look forward to a time when you have several months of actual experience with road hydro discs to see if you still cling to the same arguments. My guess is that you may. There are still those who prefer friction shifters on the down tubes and can put forward what they believe are good arguments for their support.

Currently, you'll have to forgive me if my real world experience with road hydro discs has provided evidence that leads me to believe that you are ill informed on the pros, cons, and realities of using them. Perhaps we can discuss this subject again after you have some time on them on high speed hairpin descents and for emergency stops.

Consider that sometimes reality trumps theory. 



aclinjury said:


> If you don't intend to reference articles as some sort of at least semi authoritative affirmation on disc brakes in a discussion about disc brakes, then why bother quoting them in the first place. If you don't reference them, you don't have to backtrack from them when they're break down. By backtracking or fluttering around, your position is only weaken.
> 
> And what exactly about hydro disc technology that has change significantly? Hydro disc has been around for a long time in the mbt world, and I'm still seeing the same issues with them today compared to 10-15 years ago. Same old issues, same old questions. Is this what the road world has to look forward to? No thanks, I rather not.


----------



## BikeLayne

SwiftSolo said:


> The neat thing about disc brakes is that it is unlikely that we believers will hold a gun to anyones' head and force them to make the change.
> 
> It would be fun to look forward to a time when you have several months of actual experience with road hydro discs to see if you still cling to the same arguments. My guess is that you may. There are still those who prefer friction shifters on the down tubes and can put forward what they believe are good arguments for their support.
> 
> Currently, you'll have to forgive me if my real world experience with road hydro discs has provided evidence that leads me to believe that you are ill informed on the pros, cons, and realities of using them. Perhaps we can discuss this subject again after you have some time on them on high speed hairpin descents and for emergency stops.
> 
> Consider that sometimes reality trumps theory.


 I guess that would be me. I have not ridden a bike with disc brakes. However the closest I will get to the Pro Peloton is my recliner so I would probably have to get disc brakes on it for emergency stops at the fridge. However I figure if Pro's or Amateurs out there want disc brakes then I figure that they should just bust out some cash and buy some new bikes. Myself I am fine with the bike I have and figure my next purchase will be a new Subaru.


----------



## aclinjury

SwiftSolo said:


> The neat thing about disc brakes is that it is unlikely that we believers will hold a gun to anyones' head and force them to make the change.
> 
> It would be fun to look forward to a time when you have several months of actual experience with road hydro discs to see if you still cling to the same arguments. My guess is that you may. There are still those who prefer friction shifters on the down tubes and can put forward what they believe are good arguments for their support.
> 
> Currently, you'll have to forgive me if my real world experience with road hydro discs has provided evidence that leads me to believe that you are ill informed on the pros, cons, and realities of using them. Perhaps we can discuss this subject again after you have some time on them on high speed hairpin descents and for emergency stops.
> 
> Consider that sometimes reality trumps theory.


So far, you speak as if you're the only few who understand hydro disc and all their benefits, and that guys like cxwrench (who is a mechanic who does this for a living) or guy like 32andcross (who has mentioned he builds bikes for a team). You feel that those who are anti-disc lack the knowledge, understanding, or appreciation for them. So I guess we're all just a bunch of backward guys who are still stuck in the Stone Age eh?

What is your resume to back up all your omnipotent knowledge? Do share. You mentioned descend with guys on some Giro route who were on rim brakes, and you feel they were inferior to you. I'm not quoting you directly, but that was your overtone. 

Then post a video showing us your awesome eye popping g-force as your grab a handful of disc as you scrub off that massive speed approaching a hairpin. Show us your Strava record of that massive 60 mph deceleration. Better, yet show a clip of your canyon carving prowess passing cars around bends and hairpins. A bicycle with rim brakes and slicks and reasonably good tarmac can in theory decelerate faster than a car at 55 mph, and we've seen some good pro descenders do pass motorcycles and cars on the way down... so surely, with your superior hydro disc equipped bike, you should have absolutely zero problem dispatching cars and cruiser motorcycles around bends. Go ahead.


----------



## Rokh On

Looks like 2016 ... maybe. Paris Roubaix 

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...te-hydraulic-disc-brakes-pro-peloton_340905ke


----------



## BikeLayne

SwiftSolo said:


> The neat thing about disc brakes is that it is unlikely that we believers will hold a gun to anyones' head and force them to make the change.
> 
> It would be fun to look forward to a time when you have several months of actual experience with road hydro discs to see if you still cling to the same arguments. My guess is that you may. There are still those who prefer friction shifters on the down tubes and can put forward what they believe are good arguments for their support.
> 
> Currently, you'll have to forgive me if my real world experience with road hydro discs has provided evidence that leads me to believe that you are ill informed on the pros, cons, and realities of using them. Perhaps we can discuss this subject again after you have some time on them on high speed hairpin descents and for emergency stops.
> 
> Consider that sometimes reality trumps theory.


 LOL! I love the hair pin turn thing, that was great.


----------



## MoPho

aclinjury said:


> So far, you speak as if you're the only few who understand hydro disc and all their benefits, and that guys like cxwrench (who is a mechanic who does this for a living) or guy like 32andcross (who has mentioned he builds bikes for a team). You feel that those who are anti-disc lack the knowledge, understanding, or appreciation for them. So I guess we're all just a bunch of backward guys who are still stuck in the Stone Age eh?
> 
> What is your resume to back up all your omnipotent knowledge? Do share. You mentioned descend with guys on some Giro route who were on rim brakes, and you feel they were inferior to you. I'm not quoting you directly, but that was your overtone.
> 
> Then post a video showing us your awesome eye popping g-force as your grab a handful of disc as you scrub off that massive speed approaching a hairpin. Show us your Strava record of that massive 60 mph deceleration. Better, yet show a clip of your canyon carving prowess passing cars around bends and hairpins. A bicycle with rim brakes and slicks and reasonably good tarmac can in theory decelerate faster than a car at 55 mph, and we've seen some good pro descenders do pass motorcycles and cars on the way down... so surely, with your superior hydro disc equipped bike, you should have absolutely zero problem dispatching cars and cruiser motorcycles around bends. Go ahead.














.


----------



## 55x11

Pros weigh in:
Stopping progress? Pro cyclists weigh in on the disc-brake debate - VeloNews.com

It appears a lot of pros generally want disk brakes for better braking in wet weather on carbon rims. If you ask people - would you like better braking in wet weather, most will say yes. But riders and mechanics who mention the downsides seem to be much more reserved - basically consensus seems to be "one day, maybe, but the technology is not ready yet".
Safety during crashes, weight and aerodynamics are mentioned, as well as interchangeability (standard rotors etc.), reinforcing the forks etc. And the entire peloton will have to switch over to disk brakes, there can be no mixing of rim brakes and disk brakes.


----------



## ewarnerusa

I can understand apprehension from staff about the logistics. But this all or none stuff seems like a red herring to me. It seems like pros are always willing to use unique one-off gear if they think it gives them an advantage. But I'm just an inexperienced fan with no personal peloton experience.


----------



## BikeLayne

55x11 said:


> Pros weigh in:
> Stopping progress? Pro cyclists weigh in on the disc-brake debate - VeloNews.com
> 
> It appears a lot of pros generally want disk brakes for better braking in wet weather on carbon rims. If you ask people - would you like better braking in wet weather, most will say yes. But riders and mechanics who mention the downsides seem to be much more reserved - basically consensus seems to be "one day, maybe, but the technology is not ready yet".
> Safety during crashes, weight and aerodynamics are mentioned, as well as interchangeability (standard rotors etc.), reinforcing the forks etc. And the entire peloton will have to switch over to disk brakes, there can be no mixing of rim brakes and disk brakes.


Thanks for posting that. I was wondering what they had to say about it.


----------



## cxwrench

Of course Boonen wants disc brakes. But...

When's the last time you saw Boonen leap from a caravan car to change a wheel? Or build a bike from a pile of parts. He just doesn't understand what's involved. The technology is there...brakes work great. They don't need to get any better than they are to be raced on. 

The only limiting factor is getting everyone on the same size rotors w/ a standardized pad shape. Or you can eliminate neutral support for wheel changes and the teams can take care of any and all wheel changes themselves. Otherwise you're going to have a team w/ Zipp wheels getting a neutral wheel change from Mavic or Shimano and the brakes would rub.


----------



## SwiftSolo

We already have wheels (brake tracks) of vary widths and surface angles. Wheels as narrow as 21mm and as wide as 27mm (Zipp 303's and 404's).

Consider that we currently do have standardization of wheel diameter, dropout spacing and axle diameter, pedal thread pitch, width, and direction, just to name a few. I don't see this being an issue since the teams will either believe in the value of the neutral support vehicle and force standardization of their systems or they will let the manufacturers run off in various directions--knowing that the neutral support vehicle will be of no value to their team. 

If Boonen's ability to build a bike from a pile of parts is the test of whether he knows what he's talking about, I'd have to bet that he'll pass easily. Who do you know that's a serious rider who hasn't built several of their own bikes?


cxwrench said:


> Of course Boonen wants disc brakes. But...
> 
> When's the last time you saw Boonen leap from a caravan car to change a wheel? Or build a bike from a pile of parts. He just doesn't understand what's involved. The technology is there...brakes work great. They don't need to get any better than they are to be raced on.
> 
> The only limiting factor is getting everyone on the same size rotors w/ a standardized pad shape. Or you can eliminate neutral support for wheel changes and the teams can take care of any and all wheel changes themselves. Otherwise you're going to have a team w/ Zipp wheels getting a neutral wheel change from Mavic or Shimano and the brakes would rub.


----------



## 32and3cross

SwiftSolo said:


> We already have wheels (brake tracks) of vary widths and surface angles. Wheels as narrow as 21mm and as wide as 27mm (Zipp 303's and 404's).
> 
> Consider that we currently do have standardization of wheel diameter, dropout spacing and axle diameter, pedal thread pitch, width, and direction, just to name a few. I don't see this being an issue since the teams will either believe in the value of the neutral support vehicle and force standardization of their systems or they will let the manufacturers run off in various directions--knowing that the neutral support vehicle will be of no value to their team.
> 
> If Boonen's ability to build a bike from a pile of parts is the test of whether he knows what he's talking about, I'd have to bet that he'll pass easily. Who do you know that's a serious rider who hasn't built several of their own bikes?


I've ridden with pros that could build a bike from the ground up and a couple that could barely change a tube.


----------



## cxwrench

SwiftSolo said:


> We already have wheels (brake tracks) of vary widths and surface angles. Wheels as narrow as 21mm and as wide as 27mm (Zipp 303's and 404's).
> 
> Consider that we currently do have standardization of wheel diameter, dropout spacing and axle diameter, pedal thread pitch, width, and direction, just to name a few. I don't see this being an issue since the teams will either believe in the value of the neutral support vehicle and force standardization of their systems or they will let the manufacturers run off in various directions--knowing that the neutral support vehicle will be of no value to their team.
> 
> If Boonen's ability to build a bike from a pile of parts is the test of whether he knows what he's talking about, I'd have to bet that he'll pass easily. *Who do you know that's a serious rider who hasn't built several of their own bikes?*


That sentence says it all...you've obviously never worked with pro racers. I've done it for a living.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Paris-Roubaix will be interesting to watch next year. It will be an opportunity for Pros to get to choose their weapon. My guess is that very few will opt for rim brakes although, logistics are already difficult because of the effed up road conditions (support vehicle location usually seems to be a bigger problem). From my perspective, this will be a good move as it will likely force the industry to deal with a few of the disc brake problems. 

Cannondale and Shimano have jointly resolved most of the wheel change time difficulty associated with road hydro discs. Cannondale has developed very cleaver dropouts on their hi-mod and Shimano has made the target slot much more forgiving. Somehow, Cannondale has also significantly reduced the size of the lawyer tabs on the fork. 

On the other hand, Shimano and others still produce discs that are ridiculously (and unnecessarily) sharp from the factory. I have ground a radius on the edges of mine and can see no difference in braking and no other issues. It would be good to hear what the justification is for sharp discs.

We should also see big strides in internal routing as a result of this relaxation of the rules. When combined with electronic shifting, hydro discs eliminate the need for any external wires, cables, or hoses and the associated problems, including aerodynamics.

Campagnolo has still not come to the disc brake party and this should speed up that process, especially since their brake lever design history was an important factor in getting many folks to convert from Shimano's lame, low pivot, levers. Shimano's new hydro levers have moved the pivots up where they make sense--like Campys mechanicals.

I can see the road bike industry taking a sales hit this coming year as many sit on the sidelines waiting to see the verdict from the pros. I clearly would not buy a new high end road bike at this point in time if I lacked experience on disc brakes. I suspect that many of the disc brake road frames/bikes are being purchased by those who also do significant mountain biking (in the mountains). 



ewarnerusa said:


> I can understand apprehension from staff about the logistics. But this all or none stuff seems like a red herring to me. It seems like pros are always willing to use unique one-off gear if they think it gives them an advantage. But I'm just an inexperienced fan with no personal peloton experience.


----------



## spade2you

SwiftSolo said:


> Campagnolo has still not come to the disc brake party and this should speed up that process, especially since their brake lever design history was an important factor in getting many folks to convert from Shimano's lame, low pivot, levers. Shimano's new hydro levers have moved the pivots up where they make sense--like Campys mechanicals.


In the last 20 years, has Campagnolo sped up any processes?


----------



## Marc

spade2you said:


> In the last 20 years, has Campagnolo sped up any processes?


Which company had 10 and 11 speed drive trains to consumers first?


----------



## JSR

Marc said:


> Which company had 10 and 11 speed drive trains to consumers first?


Also electronic shifting AFAIK.


----------



## spade2you

Marc said:


> Which company had 10 and 11 speed drive trains to consumers first?


What happened to Cadel in the '09 Vuelta because of being the first to adopt Campy 11?


----------



## spade2you

JSR said:


> Also electronic shifting AFAIK.


SunTour and Mavic did that in the early 90's.


----------



## den bakker

spade2you said:


> What happened to Cadel in the '09 Vuelta because of being the first to adopt Campy 11?


let it derp


----------



## spade2you

den bakker said:


> let it derp


If I did that you'd say "really classy, Spade" and maybe a little more.

Come on, (you think) you're better than that. 

So, nothing happened to Cadel due to Campy 11, right?


----------



## den bakker

spade2you said:


> If I did that you'd say "really classy, Spade" and maybe a little more.
> 
> Come on, (you think) you're better than that.
> 
> So, nothing happened to Cadel due to Campy 11, right?


never said that and you know it. 
and the episode is irrelevant for any discussion of speeding up progress although I doubt you know that.


----------



## spade2you

den bakker said:


> never said that and you know it.
> and the episode is irrelevant for any discussion of speeding up progress although I doubt you know that.


I take that back, stick to the herpy derpy and stay classy.


----------



## mikerp

55x11 said:


> Pros weigh in:
> Stopping progress? Pro cyclists weigh in on the disc-brake debate - VeloNews.com
> It appears a lot of pros generally want disk brakes for better braking in wet weather on carbon rims.


You may want to take a course in Statistics, an article in Velo with a few folks polled doesn't equate to "lots of pros"

BTW the article(s) (Magazine and Online) also had "Lots of Pros" (and Mechanics) not wanting them, it also had the Trek Marketing guy stating that customers wanted them.


----------



## cxwrench

I figured it out. Yes...the rotors are sharp will possibly cause some nasty cuts in big crashes. But the super hot rotors will cauterize any wounds, thus saving many riders from bleeding out on the side of the road. 

No problem.


----------



## SwiftSolo

Wow,
This thread is like a National Association of Ludites Convention. When there is no rational response, resort to lame attack responses and junior high school logic.

Consider that all those pros that count on you to change their flats may not have been born as pro riders. Most logged thousands of miles without your help or the help of a support vehicle when they trained and raced as juniors and were forced to wrench their own bikes. I think they may be using you by feigning ignorance.

I assume that you've wrenched for all those interviewed who favor discs and know that none of them know what they're talking about?


cxwrench said:


> That sentence says it all...you've obviously never worked with pro racers. I've done it for a living.


----------



## 55x11

no need to be snarky - obviously I was referring to the pros who were asked in *the article*, not ALL the pros out there in the universe. Duh.

I think they like them in theory without considering all pros and cons seriously. As in "I would like to have better brakes, make it happen".

I was thinking about the safety argument though.
If we go from everyone using rim brakes to everyone using disk brakes, how is that going to make things safer? If a rider goes down in the middle of the peloton, they will still have pileups, because everyone will have the same brakes and just because they can "lock it up" with disk brakes won't matter since they can "lock it up" with rim brakes today.

And on steep technical descents, say in the wet conditions, now the riders have to go a bit slower, take fewer risks and brake early and often. With disk brakes let's assume they will ALL (or most ) will be able to go faster, and brake later, just before the turn. Will this really make it for less crashes? Seems it will encourage more risks and less margin of error.

I still think weight and poor aerodynamics makes disk brakes not ready for prime time, as far as racing is concerned - all just to save a few seconds in wet conditions on super-technical descents - but then everyone is saving a few seconds.

For regular schmoes, just ride aluminum rims with simple rim brakes, they work just fine. How many of us like to ride carbon rims in the rain just for fun? Not me.
And on descents, even technical ones, the key for most regular riders is to learn how to moderate speed ahead of time, corner properly and use their brakes less, not to have technology allowing them to brake much later, just as one is about to go into the turn.
In any case, I like descending as much as anyone else, but investing a lot of money just to shave a second on a technical descent is a bit silly for amateur riders.


----------



## BikeLayne

SwiftSolo said:


> Wow,
> This thread is like a National Association of Ludites Convention. When there is no rational response, resort to lame attack responses and junior high school logic.
> 
> Consider that all those pros that count on you to change their flats may not have been born as pro riders. Most logged thousands of miles without your help or the help of a support vehicle when they trained and raced as juniors and were forced to wrench their own bikes. I think they may be using you by feigning ignorance.
> 
> I assume that you've wrenched for all those interviewed who favor discs and know that none of them know what they're talking about?


. I love the Luddite thing, that was great. I am confused who the Luddite is however. So is a Luddite in favor of bringing back old school disc brakes again or would a Luddite be against it. But I would like to go to a Luddite convention because they would have some cool old stuff to check out. I figure Reno in August would be good for the convention.


----------



## dcb

I've got disc brakes on my mountain bike. The current ones, XT's are the best I've ever used. My road and cx bikes have rim brakes though and I feel no need to "upgrade" to discs on either bike. 

However, discs brake equipped bikes will take over the market in 5 years. I think the only bikes that will be available with rim brakes will either be TT/tri bikes or lower end road bikes. Everything else will be discs. So we may as well get used to it.


----------



## 55x11

More opinion from Steve Tilford. He seems more skeptical:
Braking in the Mountains/Disc Road Brakes | Steve Tilford


----------



## 4slomo

Tilford seems to be rambling in this article: The sixth paragraph is the only one of Tillford's comments relevant to road disc braking, and that concerns mostly disc brake standardization to allow wheel swaps, as are now allowed with rim brake wheels.

The link in the fifth paragraph is to the Velo News article with pro racer's comments. The first response Boonen mentions the difficulties of rim braking with carbon rims during precipation. The second refers to not being able to use the latest technology (min. frame weight, disc brakes), and alludes to brake modulation afforded by disc brakes. The third acknowledges the need for using only one style of brake, either rim or disc in the peleton. 

Stetina and Shaffer are concerned about parts compatibility for wheel swaps, and that sharp edges on discs are addressed for safety during crashes. Stetina looks forward to using road disc brakes.

Voight is concerned about not mixing rim and disc braking due to braking power, otherwise is for disc braking.

Dekker acknowledges needing to learn how to modulate disc braking.

Phinney and King are concerned with braking power, and want either rim or disc brakes.

Haas is concerned with disc brake temperature causing burns during crashes.



55x11 said:


> More opinion from Steve Tilford. He seems more skeptical:
> Braking in the Mountains/Disc Road Brakes | Steve Tilford


----------



## atpjunkie

it will need to be peloton wide
can you imagine a wet 1st week TdF stage where some guys can stop and some can't?
Jens is right
other riders are concerned with big pileups and rotor cuts


----------



## spdntrxi

atpjunkie said:


> it will need to be peloton wide
> can you imagine a wet 1st week TdF stage where some guys can stop and some can't?
> Jens is right
> other riders are concerned with big pileups and rotor cuts


other parts of the bikes and riders skill are not equal.. so I don't follow the power unequal angle... they would just have to deal with it.... I'd rather them ride Al rims on wet days then resort to discs personally.


----------



## atpjunkie

spdntrxi said:


> other parts of the bikes and riders skill are not equal.. so I don't follow the power unequal angle... they would just have to deal with it.... I'd rather them ride Al rims on wet days then resort to discs personally.


on a high speed descent or sprint lead up, riders with discs would be able to stop faster causing riders without discs to rear end them. more so on carbon rims. so a disc rider may be able to brake to avoid the crash but the guy on rims behind him is gonna slam into him


----------



## BikeLayne

Well I am learning stuff in RBF.


----------



## dnice

BikeLayne said:


> Well I am learning stuff in RBF. I have never ridden on a carbon frame or carbon wheels. So if I understand it right carbon wheels suck with calipers brakes in the rain. They could not possibly ride on aluminum rims because the manufacturers would rather the riders had broken bones and heads then to risk cutting the bottom line. So now they need disc brakes so the riders can melt their faces on hot disc in large pileups. And the mechanics can chop off their fingers with an unsafe product that should be recalled. It sounds like to me what we have is roller ball bike racing. So the solution is the riders need to outfit themselves like they would in roller ball. Elbow, knee protectors, spinal column protectors etc.. Oh and make sure you do not win because you will be hounded to your grave for PED's. Pro cycling is awesome! The good news is my aluminum rims and calipers work fine. Perfect for an after work spin. Besides I play the guitar and I need all my fingers. Cycling for fun and fitness, guitar for my soul.


it really is bloody stupid how the simplest solution--aluminum rims on rainy days--is somehow not used, isn't it?


----------



## BikeLayne

dnice said:


> it really is bloody stupid how the simplest solution--aluminum rims on rainy days--is somehow not used, isn't it?


 It might be a simple solution with some truth but my comment is just in humor. They can use any kind of brake they want and it's fine with me.


----------



## Dry Side

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWsSB9QGkY*


----------



## BikeLayne

Dry Side said:


> *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWsSB9QGkY*


 Nice commercial. I did like the demonstration of the axle as I have not seen how it works. Solid and safe system. I think they should have cut the stem on the bike however. That telephone pole sticking up kind of took my focus from the finger choppers to the steerer tube.


----------



## 55x11

BikeLayne said:


> Nice commercial. I did like the demonstration of the axle as I have not seen how it works. Solid and safe system. I think they should have cut the stem on the bike however. That telephone pole sticking up kind of took my focus from the finger choppers to the steerer tube.


You mean cut the steering tube (not the stem)? I suspect it's a test bike, the guy riding it will not own it, so they set it up for his riding style (which means slamming the stem) but the spacers will go back up when it is sold to whoever will own it. Either that or they didn't have much time to fiddle with cutting the steering tube.

I think the video was interesting. The axle means the wheel change is going to be quite slow. The tester commented that the braking power is actually not that much better than rim brakes, but the modulation (and wet weather consistency) is the key. I agree.
But I also think people should not be riding carbon rims in the rain, or even rarely ever.
Southern californians (like myself) will not benefit from disk brakes. Only people who often descend in the rain on carbon rims will. Agreed. 
You have to buy a whole new bike (something people forget). Not just a pair of wheels.


----------



## BikeLayne

55x11 said:


> You mean cut the steering tube (not the stem)? I suspect it's a test bike, the guy riding it will not own it, so they set it up for his riding style (which means slamming the stem) but the spacers will go back up when it is sold to whoever will own it. Either that or they didn't have much time to fiddle with cutting the steering tube.
> 
> I think the video was interesting. The axle means the wheel change is going to be quite slow. The tester commented that the braking power is actually not that much better than rim brakes, but the modulation (and wet weather consistency) is the key. I agree.
> But I also think people should not be riding carbon rims in the rain, or even rarely ever.
> Southern californians (like myself) will not benefit from disk brakes. Only people who often descend in the rain on carbon rims will. Agreed.
> You have to buy a whole new bike (something people forget). Not just a pair of wheels.


I did mean the steerer tube. The commercial would have been more realistic if the bike did not look like a prop.


----------



## SwiftSolo

At this point, I don't know of any major company that has abandoned the traditional skewer on their disc brake production bikes. Cannondale has adopted a pretty cleaver dropout design that makes wheel replacement fast and easy (part of the credit may belong to Shimano's calipers design as well). I don't believe we'll see significant change in axle/skewer design on road bikes. I have had no issue with disc alignment on my Cannondale and I remove my front wheel after every ride. My mountain bike with Avids is a different story.

It won't be long before we see some comparative stopping distance testing done on both systems. It is easy to speculate that the discs will win in the wet but I believe they will stop significantly shorter in the dry as well if tested in real world conditions (New aluminum rims and pads with little mileage and no dry weather rim grit will substantially mitigate their disadvantage).

Over the next twelve months look for reality to replace speculation and for most of the objections to be overcome or disproven. I remain miffed as to why any manufacturer thinks that discs have to be sharp (they are razor sharp new). I've radiused mine and notice no reduction in power (wet or dry). A 2mm (3/32") disc with rounded edges will not cut anyone even after significant wear. I'd like to hear their rationale (beyond production cost).


55x11 said:


> You mean cut the steering tube (not the stem)? I suspect it's a test bike, the guy riding it will not own it, so they set it up for his riding style (which means slamming the stem) but the spacers will go back up when it is sold to whoever will own it. Either that or they didn't have much time to fiddle with cutting the steering tube.
> 
> I think the video was interesting. The axle means the wheel change is going to be quite slow. The tester commented that the braking power is actually not that much better than rim brakes, but the modulation (and wet weather consistency) is the key. I agree.
> But I also think people should not be riding carbon rims in the rain, or even rarely ever.
> Southern californians (like myself) will not benefit from disk brakes. Only people who often descend in the rain on carbon rims will. Agreed.
> You have to buy a whole new bike (something people forget). Not just a pair of wheels.


----------



## ewarnerusa

Giant uses 15mm thru axles on the front of the TCX.
TCX Advanced Pro 0 (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States


----------



## SwiftSolo

It will be interesting to see how that works out in cycle cross. Not much in common with road racing though.


ewarnerusa said:


> Giant uses 15mm thru axles on the front of the TCX.
> TCX Advanced Pro 0 (2015) | Giant Bicycles | United States


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## ewarnerusa

Yeah, not too many wheel changes in CX


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## jtompilot

Oh God, I can hear it now........ 198 squealing brakes.......I'm changing the channel


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## kiwisimon

atpjunkie said:


> on a high speed descent or sprint lead up, riders with discs would be able to stop faster causing riders without discs to rear end them. more so on carbon rims. so a disc rider may be able to brake to avoid the crash but the guy on rims behind him is gonna slam into him


Yeah but which is better, taking a high speed endo or getting rear ended by a braking bicycle? I'll take the latter everytime. They are coming, it's inevitable as 
electronic shifting and derailleur free drivetrains.


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## 55x11

electronic shifting has very few downsides (besides perhaps the fact that it stops working randomly - due to battery malfunction or crash) and yet many pros (Cancellara for example) are very much against it. 
They also don't improve performance so they are not "inevitable" - many riders, even say 20 or 50 years from now, can stick with mechanical cable shifting and ride just as fast as another rider next to them with electronic shifting, everything being equal.

What is it about derailleur-free drivetrains - you mean like Nexus? Are you serious?


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## BikeLayne

kiwisimon said:


> Yeah but which is better, taking a high speed endo or getting rear ended by a braking bicycle? I'll take the latter everytime. They are coming, it's inevitable as
> electronic shifting and derailleur free drivetrains.


 They can bring it on. But I am not buying it.


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## kiwisimon

55x11 said:


> electronic shifting has very few downsides (besides perhaps the fact that it stops working randomly - due to battery malfunction or crash) and yet many pros (Cancellara for example) are very much against it.
> They also don't improve performance so they are not "inevitable" - many riders, even say 20 or 50 years from now, can stick with mechanical cable shifting and ride just as fast as another rider next to them with electronic shifting, everything being equal.
> 
> What is it about derailleur-free drivetrains - you mean like Nexus? Are you serious?


okay, electronic shifting does improve performance as it means an athlete can make quicker cleaner and fail safe shifts. How many racers have dropped chains on climbs or when they are fatigued? Thousands every year. Even pro's in the TDF do it. You drop a chain or miss a shift and you aren't performing as well as the other guy. 
Nexus? You ask me if I'm serious. Yeah one of them for every pro in the peleton. No I am probably talking about CVT internal hub transmissions.


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## kiwisimon

BikeLayne said:


> They can bring it on. But I am not buying it.


you probably aren't at the cutting edge of racing and product development. I too won't be buying but it is coming.


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## BacDoc

It's been said before and I'll say it again, road bikes follow developments in mountain bikes. Thru axles and disc brakes will be the norm on mid to high end road bikes. Rim brakes and skewers will be standard on low end road and MTB. It's coming a lot sooner than most skeptics will admit and after this becomes the norm the debate will switch to the next innovation.

Try to find any mid to high end mountain bike with any of the following:
Straight steerer tube
Rim brakes
Front fork with skewer

The innovations that work (and increase sales) in the MTB world eventually get adopted by the road bikes. History supports these moves.


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## eriku16

kiwisimon said:


> okay, electronic shifting does improve performance as it means an athlete can make quicker cleaner and fail safe shifts. How many racers have dropped chains on climbs or when they are fatigued? Thousands every year. Even pro's in the TDF do it. You drop a chain or miss a shift and you aren't performing as well as the other guy. .


Which you can already shift clean and quick with mechanical and Campy's Ultrashift is quicker than electronic. Being electronic makes no difference as dropping the chain along with chain suck can still happen. The terrain, a worn chain, rings, etc. can cause the chain to drop. Regardless of what system one uses, it is cheap insurance to have a chain catcher to prevent chain nom nom nom on carbon. 

Electronic shifting is more responsible these days for premature drivetrain wear because it is much easier to cross chain and do high torque big ring upshifting on sprints/climbs. Just because you can get away with doing the stupid does not lessen the consequences.


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## eriku16

BacDoc said:


> It's been said before and I'll say it again, road bikes follow developments in mountain bikes. Thru axles and disc brakes will be the norm on mid to high end road bikes. Rim brakes and skewers will be standard on low end road and MTB. It's coming a lot sooner than most skeptics will admit and after this becomes the norm the debate will switch to the next innovation.
> 
> Try to find any mid to high end mountain bike with any of the following:
> Straight steerer tube
> Rim brakes
> Front fork with skewer
> 
> The innovations that work (and increase sales) in the MTB world eventually get adopted by the road bikes. History supports these moves.


A road racing bike is not a MTB.... and never will be. What makes sense in the MTB world often does not for road racing. Thru axles are not new, the idea has been around for a very long time. They are of no benefit and are not used on racing bikes for the obvious reasons.


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## BacDoc

eriku16 said:


> A road racing bike is not a MTB.... and never will be. What makes sense in the MTB world often does not for road racing. Thru axles are not new, the idea has been around for a very long time. They are of no benefit and are not used on racing bikes for the obvious reasons.


Never said a road bike is a MTB. Said developments that become functional and standard in MTB end up becoming standard on road bikes. Not my opinion, it has happened.


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## kiwisimon

eriku16 said:


> Which you can already shift clean and quick with mechanical and Campy's Ultrashift is quicker than electronic.
> Electronic shifting is more responsible these days for premature drivetrain wear because it is much easier to cross chain and do high torque big ring upshifting on sprints/climbs. Just because you can get away with doing the stupid does not lessen the consequences.


The less human involvement in something the better it works historically, so I can see electronic shifting taking over from mechanical, set up will be easier, adjustments also easier. Shifting First ride: Campagnolo EPS electronic shifting | road.cc : has a good first impressions report. The majority of proteams if given a choice select electronic, purely cause it works. 
Pro's dont worry about drivetrain wear as they aren't paying for it but you're right about Fred's causing chain wear but Freds can afford it.


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## kiwisimon

BacDoc said:


> It's been said before and I'll say it again, road bikes follow developments in mountain bikes.
> 
> Try to find any mid to high end mountain bike with any of the following:
> Straight steerer tube
> Rim brakes
> Front fork with skewer
> 
> The innovations that work (and increase sales) in the MTB world eventually get adopted by the road bikes. History supports these moves.


and vice versa. Indexed shifting, carbon frames, larger rear cassettes. Those MTB dudes are pretty good at copying what works too, it's a two way street. Agree about the disk brakes.


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## BikeLayne

kiwisimon said:


> you probably aren't at the cutting edge of racing and product development. I too won't be buying but it is coming.


 Well I like to read about the bikes the Pro's ride on. I just do not want to own bike gear of that nature. A poor choice for me.


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## BacDoc

kiwisimon said:


> and vice versa. Indexed shifting, carbon frames, larger rear cassettes. Those MTB dudes are pretty good at copying what works too, it's a two way street. Agree about the disk brakes.


Very true! 

I guess the correct statement is - as advances in components become standard in either road or MTB they eventually get adopted by the other. So far discs, tapered forks, oversized frame tubes and thru axle innovation have come from MTB and shifting innovation is being refined on the road bikes. Once the electronic deal gets thru the price points I'm sure most road bikes will have it as standard. MTB will be sure to follow.

Here on RBR the debate over disc will go on and on, on MTBR the debate over electronic shifting will go on and on. In another year all those debating if still riding, will probably be riding disc and electronic shifting. Unless you really love your current bike or money is an issue.

A lot of us enthusiasts will get the latest tech when it comes time to upgrade whether you want to admit it or not. Upside is there will be plenty of deals on road wheels for rim brakes and mech shift groups. Kind of a win win if you ask me.


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## evs

Ask Quintana that after todays fiasco. He's blaming his brakes were not working when he hit the guardrail. Maybe he should have been way over to the left of the road going in to the right hand turn instead of way over to the right and coming in to hot. Sure, disc brakes would have helped him.


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## 55x11

yes but 1. All other riders went through the corner without any problems
2. Quintana was fiddling with his shoes, then didn't setup the line for the turn, did it in a rush, went too wide and crashed into barrier. Disk breaks would allow him to fiddle with his shoes for another fraction of a second before crashing.
3. It wasn't even wet. So it's not like breaking was inconsistent. He just overshot and started braking way too late. This can be done with any brakes.


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## aclinjury

evs said:


> Ask Quintana that after todays fiasco. He's blaming his brakes were not working when he hit the guardrail. Maybe he should have been way over to the left of the road going in to the right hand turn instead of way over to the right and coming in to hot. Sure, disc brakes would have helped him.


1. the guy was fiddling with his shoes coming into a corner
2. failed to negotiate the optimal line
3. locked up his rear wheel

people who have failed to do the right things.. pointing the finger to equipment failure. What else is new? In the meantime, a load of other guys have no problem making the same corner.


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## dwt

I vote for direct mount side pulls


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## phoehn9111

Legalized for choice of two races in September 2015 by UCI.


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## eriku16

Let the fail begin!


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## Rashadabd

We'll see, if the big manufacturers start devoting some of their R&D budget to improving discs like they have aerodynamics and weight, it could be a really good thing. They should be approved for the full season by 2018.

UCI to lift ban on disc brakes in August - VeloNews.com


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