# Stage 2: Brussels to Spa - 201k



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

So we all knew there would be some pavement surfing, but none seemed to involve traffic ottomans like we thought. But hey, at least we got the dog crash outta the way early this year. 

I haven't read any post-stage rider comments, but some seemed to be pretty ticked off. When was the last time we had three big crashes in the final 3k? Usually some riders get off the throttle after crossing imaginary line. This time it looked like they kept going until the second road-blocking crash.

Chapeau to Alejet. I didn't even mention him yesterday because I figured he was a bit old and outta form. He seems to have a way with winning stages where there are catastrophic crashes in the final K, eh? 

So, now the road gets a lil bumpy. Early in the race for sawtooths, but they threw some bigger bumps in anyway. Not real climbs, but a taste of the classics. Even before we hit the forest on Tuesday. 

Not sure how he faired at the end of the stage, but I'm gonna go with Oscar F.

(not sure these images will show)


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

Boasson Hagen


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Tyler is mad. He will get over the bumps and take the sprint.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)




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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

After those crashes - (and not knowing the injuries) hard to say - here are my guesses:

Thor for the Stage 2 Win and, at least for a while, the Green Jersey.
Sparticus remains in Yellow (though I suspect it might be better for Saxo if he didn't).
Cav - has made a few more enemies - hope HTC keeps him in a cacoon the next couple of days. If he survives Stage 3 - he'll come back big time.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

Thor? really? Bernard Hinault called Stage 2 a mini LBL. It will be someone capable of winning LBL or the Fleche.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Well BH must be right:

Andy, Vino or Cadel?

Would be fun if Vino pulled it off...


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

From the horses mouth.....


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Oscar Friere.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Ofg*

Oscar Freire Gomes- I don't think Cav tried to take him out. Stuff just happens. We shall see. EBH is a good pick but I haven't seen much of him all year on the telly this year so hard to tell how he's going. Robbie Mac's another one as well as Ballan but I'll stick with the 3 time WC.


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## denversean (Jun 14, 2004)

My vote is with Thor as well.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Thor for this stage.


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## Haridic (Jun 9, 2008)

yeah looking like it'll go to a bunch sprint atm. Thor's the only real sprinter that i think can win. Cavendish won't even get a look in for this race, here's hoping Cavencrash will leave the field pristine for the final 10kms.


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## Slow Eddie (Jun 28, 2004)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Cance does the maillot jaune proud and takes one of those classic long-range flyers near the end of the stage and makes it stick.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

dougydee said:


> Big Thor for this stage.



I'd love to see Thor take this one. 

Or Freire.

Or Farrar.

What a sucky day for all though with so much rain. Yuck.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

I can't imagine handing my bike over to another rider in the TdF....what a teammate..


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

jd3 said:


> Tyler is mad. He will get over the bumps and take the sprint.



He is a good classics rider...maybe.

Farrar had some PC comments about Cav (recorded before the TdF began) they aired this morning. Stated something along the lines of "I guess Cavendish has room to trash talk, given his record of success". 

Cav was a bit sheepish in his comments this morning, but remained true to form 'That's just bike racing. Wheels overlapped _and I got caught up in them_'. 

Seemed "rehearsed" and by his demeanor, I'm guessing his handlers coached him on what to say. 

Ah well. Hard to make a call on just what (besides the riders) went down on that corner. Wonder what Freire's take on it is.


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

yater said:


> I can't imagine handing my bike over to another rider in the TdF....what a teammate..


If you're a support rider and your team's top contender needs your bike, you'll give it...


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Whaaaat? A _Frenchman_? In _yellow_? In the Tour de France? 

Good for Chavanel. Great ride and he looked thrilled at the end of the race. That boy will deservedly be on cloud nine tonight. Much celebrating to be had.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Bizarre finish.

Damn good for Chavanel. That man has a set of balls on him the size of watermelons. Fractured skull to malliot jaune....


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## thefunkyplumber (Sep 27, 2004)

what a crock of ****.

Chapeau Chavanel, firstly, 
but bloody hell, Fabian's quads are too big for his boots.
It's one thing to sacrifice your yellow jersey to wait for your team leader, that could have been considered mighty, but it's another thing entirely to turn the race into a farce, and especially for everyone else to just play along. 
Pathetic.
Someone should have shown some balls and ridden ffs.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

I didn't like the finish. Not sure why Cancellera was successful in stopping the other racers from racing. Looked like the roads were in good shape, it was the elements that did the damage and why should that garner a protest? Should they have canceled the race? That is what makes the Tdf the epic that it is. 
Would have loved to see some racing after the crashes. Do they stop racing because a contender like A. Schek fell?


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

Maybe it wasn't a protest per se but they were allowing the ones who fell to recover a bit considering it was a pretty dangerous day. If they were protesting then it seems like a little bit of crappy politics. Hinault would be proud to have been part of that finish ;p


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## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

FC's antics at the finish kept Thor from sprinting for 2nd. That leaves the door cracked for Crybaby Cavendish in the green jersey competition.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Looks more like it was a sportsmanship move to let all the main contenders get back into it and keep them safe for tomorrow.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Kudos, Chavanelle. He gets accused of going on break-aways just to try and get some camera time. That may be true, but it's nice to see him wear yellow after 10 years.

I have mixed feelings about FC's move at the end. I do see the sportsmanship in it by allowing those who crashed, the chance to limit what could be significant time losses. On the other hand, it's also a pretty self/team-serving move considering who crashed today. Would FC have been there had Lance or Alberto been the ones who went down?

As for the idea of a "protest" of some sort, I hope that isn't the case. In a quick interview with Levi after the race, he mentioned the roads being bad but, as even Phil Liggett pointed out, they've known about this course for almost a year. It's a race. It's dangerous. If you have the stones for it (and I know I wouldn't, btw) then race. Otherwise, abandon...but don't complain as if you had suddenly been thrown a curve.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Yes,

apparently FC wanted that the results for GC and PC were not considered, that's why he organised the protest. To keep the yellow I guess.

However this wouldn't be fair, Chavanel broke away before the crashes, so he well deserves the yellow.

and it is the race, it is dangerous and for all. If you take risks you maybe crash and you lose all, if you don't take them you remain safe but you lose at the end. your choice.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Very happy with Sylvain Chavanel's win today - one of my fav riders. (Has SC ever won LBL or Fleche?)
Takes pressure off Saxo for now - that's good.
Pity if Thor was somehow "blocked" from the sprint victory I had thought would be his today.

Have not seen the stage yet - looking forward to seeing what happened re Saxo Bank.

Who's in Green now?


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

Chavenel has the points lead, but Petacchi will wear it in his stead tomorrow.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

If Fabian slowed the bunch down to let others get back on, then they'd be waiting about 20 minutes for the back of the pack to catch up!
I definitely want to know why it was neutralized. If it was a protest then that is pathetic! Makes me scared they will continue the protest tomorrow and ride the cobbles like...I would. :cryin: It really took away points for Thor and Petacchi and others that could be in contention! I think it was a bad move for sure! Certainly it favored Cav if he wasn't around to sprint but I don't know where he was!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

cheddarlove said:


> If Fabian slowed the bunch down to let others get back on, then they'd be waiting about 20 minutes for the back of the pack to catch up!
> I definitely want to know why it was neutralized. If it was a protest then that is pathetic! Makes me scared they will continue the protest tomorrow and ride the cobbles like...I would. :cryin: It really took away points for Thor and Petacchi and others that could be in contention! I think it was a bad move for sure! Certainly it favored Cav if he wasn't around to sprint but I don't know where he was!


took away points from petacchi? did you even watch the race? Or at least glance at the results? 
As for "waiting" they rolled at a steady pace in. Saxo bank blow Soerensen and Voigt in the effort to get the schlecks back up. It was not fast for those 4 to close to gap.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

den bakker said:


> took away points from petacchi? did you even watch the race? Or at least glance at the results?
> As for "waiting" they rolled at a steady pace in. Saxo bank blow Soerensen and Voigt in the effort to get the schlecks back up. It was not fast for those 4 to close to gap.


I don't get it! Yea, I watched the race. Don't sprinters get points towards the Green jersey if they sprint? So if Petacchi was held up from sprinting, as was Thor and whoever else feels like sprinting, don't they not get points? Please be nice and not accusatory in your response to me. I'm all up for learning more and getting other people's opinions!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

cheddarlove said:


> I don't get it! Yea, I watched the race. Don't sprinters get points towards the Green jersey if they sprint? So if Petacchi was held up from sprinting, as was Thor and whoever else feels like sprinting, don't they not get points? Please be nice and not accusatory in your response to me. I'm all up for learning more and getting other people's opinions!


petacchi was further 10 minutes back. IF they had been sprinting in the front group he would still not be able to get any points. He ended second in his group, as 157. 
The only one really robbed would be Thor and he seemed fine with it from the start and Martin that might have gotten yellow (most probably would). and he seemed fine with it too.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

den bakker said:


> petacchi was further 10 minutes back. IF they had been sprinting in the front group he would still not be able to get any points. He ended second in his group, as 157.
> The only one really robbed would be Thor and he seemed fine with it from the start and Martin that might have gotten yellow (most probably would). and he seemed fine with it too.


Gotcha. Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

+1^^

If anything, Petacchi, Cavendish, and Farrar got huge gifts by having the final sprint points neutralized in a finish where they were well off the back. As denbakker writes above, Thor had the most to gain or lose by neutralizing, and he didn't seem to care too much. 

FWIW, here's Horner's perspective on the issue.


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## 1nf0s3c (Feb 21, 2010)

Anyone have the interview at the end with Levi Leipheimer? I missed it and heard he had a few choice words..


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

Hmm..I don't know.Definitely dissappointed in the finish. Sportsmanship? I didn't see anybody wait for Cadel in the Giro when he got tangled in a crash (where he lost the maglia rosa)... I think they should have raced when group three caught up with group 2. If crashes don't count for racing, why not just make it a one day race?


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## tethernaut (Dec 11, 2008)

Opus51569 said:


> On the other hand, it's also a pretty self/team-serving move considering who crashed today. Would FC have been there had Lance or Alberto been the ones who went down?


Self serving?? No - he could have solo'd off the front and kept the yellow. Probably could have caught Chavanel. Team serving - sure. The Schleck's and Jens must have been knackered after burying themselves getting back to the main group, and might have lost time had FC not corralled the group. Shows that Spartacus may be the new "Boss".

I have to say, that was awesome the way Jens threw the Schlecks over his back and dragged them up to the group. I can't believe Riis can't find a new sponsor for that team - you could make a great ad out of just that picture, with a tag line along the lines of "This is how hard we'll work for you"


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Kaleo said:


> Hmm..I don't know.Definitely dissappointed in the finish. Sportsmanship? I didn't see anybody wait for Cadel in the Giro when he got tangled in a crash (where he lost the maglia rosa)... I think they should have raced when group three caught up with group 2. If crashes don't count for racing, why not just make it a one day race?


it wasn't just one rider - there were lots of crashes - Armstrong, both Schlecks, Leipheimer, Contador, Farrar, Vande Velde, etc. A sprint would eliminate some of the GC and green jersey contenders who were left behind. Would it be fair for Thor to get a huge lead in green jersey based on who crashed out? Obviously Thor didn't think so.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

i was trying to explain why FC had organized and clearly got support for neutralizing the race. there were plenty of big name contenders who got caught up in the crash. on the replay, my wife's comment was "it looks like there were motorcycles involved in the crash" and upon review, yes, it looks like support/camera/officials vehicles were blocking the very narrow road.

my guess is that there will be a bunch of times corrected.

you don't attack when the field crashes - that's very unsportsman like. remember when Lance waited for Jan when he went over the edge?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> you don't attack when the field crashes - that's very unsportsman like. remember when Lance waited for Jan when he went over the edge?


and Jan easing up when Lance went over the handlebar


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Will they race tomorrow?


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## thefunkyplumber (Sep 27, 2004)

Thor wasn't happy about it at all. And rightly so. It's a race.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/97th-tour-de-france-gt/stage-2/results

As for waiting for all of the crash victims, whoever said fair play means waiting for a sprinter after a berg? 
The Schlecks were back in the peloton with 5k to go, despite posturing for the cameras after the crash; really, at what point does one man or team get to cry foul, and somehow do so for another 25km, and expect others who made the effort to be at the front at the right time to have to sacrifice their well placed efforts? 
Let's neutralize tomorrow's cobbles too then. Maybe some of those mountains too, eh Fabian?


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## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

justinb said:


> +1^^
> 
> If anything, Petacchi, Cavendish, and Farrar got huge gifts by having the final sprint points neutralized in a finish where they were well off the back. As denbakker writes above, Thor had the most to gain or lose by neutralizing, and he didn't seem to care too much..


On the contrary, Thor was not happy:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...peloton-as-green-jersey-fight-heats-up_125965


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

ilmaestro said:


> On the contrary, Thor was not happy:
> 
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...peloton-as-green-jersey-fight-heats-up_125965


Hadn't seen that story yet. Thanks.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

justinb said:


> +1^^
> 
> If anything, Petacchi, Cavendish, and Farrar got huge gifts by having the final sprint points neutralized in a finish where they were well off the back. As denbakker writes above, Thor had the most to gain or lose by neutralizing, and he didn't seem to care too much.
> 
> FWIW, here's Horner's perspective on the issue.


Please read the Horner article before posting. He states that it was not sportsmanship but a protest for the dangerous descent in the Tour. Riders have no choice but to ride the course given them so they make themselves heard by protests such as this. Not the first time we have seen it in the Tour. It is as much a tradition as shaving legs and the leader wearing yellow.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

I did read the article; in fact, I linked it in the post you replied to. I didn't claim it was sportsmanship or protest, so I'm unsure what you're trying to say. The idea that Cervelo/Thor didn't care has already been corrected.


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## scottie (Apr 28, 2004)

The Garmin squad needs a new team director. Matt White doesn't seem to have a clue riding in the car. He said more than once that the tour was over for Andy Schleck today and of course it wasn't. He also told Millar in the Prologue that he had the best time at the 1/2 checkpoint and he didn't.


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## T-shirt (Aug 15, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Whaaaat? A _Frenchman_? In _yellow_? In the Tour de France?


Hey, it worked or the Italians.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

Thanks for posting Horners opinion. I never expected him to cry like that. HTFU!
There have been plenty of stages in the past when favorites went down and the front group picked it up! Passage du Gois in 1999 being a classic example. As was the cobble sections a few years ago when Mayo got caught out.
For Horner to whine like David Millar of old surprises me. I thought he was tougher. 
Even more I now feel that they shouldn't have neutralized the stage!
How many races in the past have favorites gotten caught out and had to fight like heck to get back in contention.
Also, wasn't there a stage a few years ago coming down the Col Aspin that Lance took it easy on the descent and then his team hammered him back to Ullrich after they were down and safe? 
He said it himself! They knew the stage was dangerous. They should have planned accordingly. On the other hand, if the road surface was purposefully sabotaged, then forget what I just said.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

what a bunch of bollocks... saxo bank just saved their arses in the guise of a protest. there were no real GC favourites in the first chasing group most of them were in the second chasing group and the shlecks & co were in the third group lagging behind considerably and were the only ones who stood to gain from everyone slowing down. the same thing happened in the giro when there wasnt such a fuss and im sure there'll be group cashes tomorrow as well... lets see how much of a sportsman FC is then


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

justinb said:


> I did read the article; in fact, I linked it in the post you replied to. I didn't claim it was sportsmanship or protest, so I'm unsure what you're trying to say. The idea that Cervelo/Thor didn't care has already been corrected.


Sorry, that was directed to others, not you.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

cheddarlove said:


> Thanks for posting Horners opinion. I never expected him to cry like that. HTFU!
> There have been plenty of stages in the past when favorites went down and the front group picked it up! Passage du Gois in 1999 being a classic example. As was the cobble sections a few years ago when Mayo got caught out.
> For Horner to whine like David Millar of old surprises me. I thought he was tougher.
> Even more I now feel that they shouldn't have neutralized the stage!
> ...


Ok, even the motorcycles were going down. When have we seen that? Ever? Did you notice all the contenders went down?

From the all knowing one himself...

“There was something on the road. We just couldn’t stay on our bikes. And when we went down the road, we just kept passing guys, all the way. I’ve never seen anything like that,” said Lance Armstrong, one of four RadioShack riders to crash. “You were up the road, you didn’t know what to do, the Schlecks were behind, it was conflicting on what to do.”

Other riders were complaining about falling riders sliding past them as they road on their bikes. Sounds like there was an issue with the road.

Ullrich slowed on the Col Aspin for Armstrong to come back.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

tethernaut said:


> Self serving?? No - he could have solo'd off the front and kept the yellow. Probably could have caught Chavanel. Team serving - sure. The Schleck's and Jens must have been knackered after burying themselves getting back to the main group, and might have lost time had FC not corralled the group. Shows that Spartacus may be the new "Boss".
> 
> I have to say, that was awesome the way Jens threw the Schlecks over his back and dragged them up to the group. I can't believe Riis can't find a new sponsor for that team - you could make a great ad out of just that picture, with a tag line along the lines of "This is how hard we'll work for you"


I agree it was great watching Jens, teeth gritted, hammering away at the front. I too, admire Jens a great deal. As for FC, I don't think he could have pulled back Sylvan. So, I think he did the next best thing for his team, which was to give the Schlecks time to catch up. It was an interesting bit of politics to watch. If the other GC contenders or the sprinters still in position had ignored him and rode ahead, they would have been lambasted for poor sportsmanship. As it was though, he managed to single-handedly control the race at the end to benefit his team.

Frankly, I don't get the whole "waiting out of respect" idea in the TdF. Does this happen in any other kind of race? If I'm a runner and I pull a hamstring in a race, the other runners don't slow down until I work it out and can continue. If I'm a NASCAR driver and I misjudge a turn or run out of gas, the other drivers don't wait for me. Crashes and mechanical/physical problems are part of racing. Sometimes, it's just not your day/tour/season. 

What precedent does this set? Are we going to try to nullify any finish if any of the "important" riders aren't present and 100 percent at the end?


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

cervelott said:


> I didn't like the finish. Not sure why Cancellera was successful in stopping the other racers from racing. Looked like the roads were in good shape, it was the elements that did the damage and why should that garner a protest? Should they have canceled the race? That is what makes the Tdf the epic that it is.
> Would have loved to see some racing after the crashes. Do they stop racing because a contender like A. Schek fell?


Most of the contenders went down due to something in the road. AS fell twice in a matter of minutes. I dont think anyone wants to win the tdf due to something like that. It wasnt a matter of bad bike handling, etc. Sounded like there was nothing you could do to get traction and it wasnt a protest, it was a neutralization. Good sportsmanship imo.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Despite the bickering and shaved legs, cycling remains a gentlemen's sport. I like it.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

^^^^ This!


@ Maximus: Ulrich the lead group waited (on Hamilton's intercession) on the climb up to Luz Ardiden, not the Aspin FWIW.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

scottie said:


> The Garmin squad needs a new team director. Matt White doesn't seem to have a clue riding in the car. He said more than once that the tour was over for Andy Schleck today and of course it wasn't. He also told Millar in the Prologue that he had the best time at the 1/2 checkpoint and he didn't.


I don't think he is clueless, as much as he is an evil genius.
Telling Millar he had the best time was aimed at motivating him to give it all he got.
Telling the riders it was over for Schleck could have been a way to spread the misinformation so that they wouldn't wait for him and ride hard. Both times it didn't work, but it could have.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

cheddarlove said:


> How many races in the past have favorites gotten caught out and had to fight like heck to get back in contention.


the issue is more deeper than that - race vehicles created the bulk of the pileup - a camera moto went down, a tv moto went down, and that caused the peloton that was behind them to pileup. 

when your entire team is blocked because of the race vehicles, is that really racing?


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## scottie (Apr 28, 2004)

55x11 said:


> I don't think he is clueless, as much as he is an evil genius.
> Telling Millar he had the best time was aimed at motivating him to give it all he got.
> Telling the riders it was over for Schleck could have been a way to spread the misinformation so that they wouldn't wait for him and ride hard. Both times it didn't work, but it could have.


How could they have ridden hard with the news about Schleck when there own two leaders, Farrar and Vande Velde, were lying in a ditch.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

gh1 said:


> Most of the contenders went down due to something in the road.


Water? 

Seriously, though, I get that rain sometimes mixes with residue on the pavement making things very slick, but how many miles of roads do these guys ride in a year?

If they find somebody poured some artificial substance on the road...vaseline, KY, 10W30, etc. then I will change my opinion and agree the results should have been neutralized and FC was right to do what he did. Otherwise, it's a part of racing IMHO.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Reading velonews, it appears that Gavezzi was in the breakaway, fell on the descent of the Stockeau. A motorbike crashed trying to avoid him in the road, and spread oil across the road that had basically coated the surface by the time the peloton rolled through, causing mayhem.

Hmm...in that case, is a neutralization appropriate?


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Opus51569 said:


> Water?


a camera moto crashed to avoid a rider and covered the road in oil.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

i havent read any post race race articles or onterviews, but that ignorance wont stop me from posting.

it sounds like it was bedlam on the descent. trim, tricky roads were made worse by rain. add to that all the motos and cars, and you have some pretty tight quarters. with teh rain and trees, getting the word out via radio was hampered, so riders had no idea whether to sprint ahead or fall back to armada their gc concerns up the road. i can see a vast majority of the "ban the radios" camp seeing this stage as proof many riders dont know what to do without a bug in their ear.

as far a FC slowing the race down, at first i thought, "good for you." it was nice to see the yellow jersey acting as the patron. last grand tour i saw that was last years giro, and it seemed armstrong coaxed the pink into staging the protest. while it may have been team-serving in organizing a neutral finish, it did get a few eyebrows raised. but at the same time you can read into it that saxobank just saved their gc hopes with that "little stunt."

now, if tomorrow is rainy, that will be one interesting stage. it may feel more like sring than the ast two paris-roubaix races.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Hmm...in that case, is a neutralization appropriate?


absolutely. it only makes sense - this is stage 2 - if the bulk of the racers are over 40 minutes back, the race is over on stage 3.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Lance Armstrong said there was something on the road.

That means there was something on the road.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Lance Armstrong said there was something on the road.
> 
> That means there was something on the road.


lance's ego?


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## 1nf0s3c (Feb 21, 2010)

asciibaron said:


> lance's ego?


I think you're confusing him with Contador...


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

1nf0s3c said:


> I think you're confusing him with Contador...


i've been around a long time, lance has a massive ego.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Opus51569 said:


> Frankly, I don't get the whole "waiting out of respect" idea in the TdF. Does this happen in any other kind of race? If I'm a runner and I pull a hamstring in a race, the other runners don't slow down until I work it out and can continue. If I'm a NASCAR driver and I misjudge a turn or run out of gas, the other drivers don't wait for me. Crashes and mechanical/physical problems are part of racing. Sometimes, it's just not your day/tour/season.
> 
> What precedent does this set? Are we going to try to nullify any finish if any of the "important" riders aren't present and 100 percent at the end?


so they just keep on driving nascar after there's been an oil spill on the course? There's never a neutral car either? (is there ever not a neutral car on course?  )


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Reading velonews, it appears that Gavezzi was in the breakaway, fell on the descent of the Stockeau. A motorbike crashed trying to avoid him in the road, and spread oil across the road that had basically coated the surface by the time the peloton rolled through, causing mayhem.
> 
> Hmm...in that case, is a neutralization appropriate?


If it turns out that was the cause, then yes, I think the neutralization is appropriate. While the motorcycles are technically a part of the race, they aren't a "natural" part of the course.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

*update on the road conditions*

http://tinyurl.com/28wy746

Velonews is reporting that a crashed motorcycle leaked oil onto the road and more that 60 riders crashed. It does seem to have been an extraordinary situation for the riders.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

I think most of you are 'spoiled' by the Giro de Chaotica. Where this type of thing is typical. Makes great watching, but creates a 'who is luckiest?' vibe vs who the best rider is. 

If you watch the TV coverage you do get to see where the TV camera bike goes down and nearly plows into the rider. A select few might have experience but lay down a fresh layer of motor oil over an already saturated surface and allow to run down a hundred yards or so in a turn... No surprise that more camera vehicles, racers and quite possibly team cars ended up in the ditch. It's definitely dangerous and the fact that the organizers didn't figure it out quickly (get something/someone to slow down the peloton before getting into it) is just asking for trouble.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

This photo says it all......


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

The way I read it the race wasn't neutralized, just the sprint for 2nd on down. Chavanel who should win the stage and get the yellow is awarded the sprint points and Thor gets it broke off in his ass. And Vande Velde who is Garmins contender is hung out to dry nine minutes back.
I think after this crap Saxo Bank should get the Team Classification and keep it for the entire race.


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

den bakker said:


> so they just keep on driving nascar after there's been an oil spill on the course? There's never a neutral car either? (is there ever not a neutral car on course?  )



Actually those wusses stop when it's raining... 

F1 drivers just man up and get some rain tyres.... 

In defense of car racing, you don't really nullify the results, you keep positions and are not allowed to surpass... Chavanel would have won by just the minimum difference, despite arriving 20min before or he could have crawled to the finish line and no one could have surpassed him if under safety car (motorcycle) finish.

The way I understand it, the protest was because the organizers did not change the course knowing how dangerous this descent was under the conditions.


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## tinkerbeast (Jul 24, 2009)

yup... seems awfully unfair to thor and vande velde... either let the race run its course for a sprint finish or give everyone behind chavanel the same time (still sucks for thor). convenient how things worked out for saxo bank but not the guys behind them huh? oh yea totally the right thing to do not hypocritical at all....


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## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

KenS said:


> http://tinyurl.com/28wy746
> 
> Velonews is reporting that a crashed motorcycle leaked oil onto the road and more that 60 riders crashed. It does seem to have been an extraordinary situation for the riders.


Very interesting, I think the riders knew this was not business as usual. Good to see some sportmanship still and no one wanted to risk being a persona non grata for the rest of the year.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Keski said:


> This photo says it all......
> 
> ]



    


What a _mess_ of a day. Poor Farrar. Poor everyone that went down. 

Hope no one was seriously injured. Haven't been able to keep up on news feeds today to see waht the total carnage is. 

Reading what I have, it does sound at first impression like a case of "neutralizing" would most certainly be in order.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

How is that they can use the radios to remote-control the race, but can't use them to give alert and coordinate and action to avoid the carnage ?


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

den bakker said:


> so they just keep on driving nascar after there's been an oil spill on the course? There's never a neutral car either? (is there ever not a neutral car on course?  )


Neutral cars? Flags? NASCAR is full of real men, NEVAR!!!!! Or maybe so.....


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Salsa_Lover said:


> How is that they can use the radios to remote-control the race, but can't use them to give alert and coordinate and action to avoid the carnage ?


From what I have read, the teams were having communication problems. Remember, the relay aircraft for radios may be grounded in bad weather and mountains and rain are bad for reception anyway.

I doubt FC knew that there was oil on the road. At the time, most only knew there was complete chaos behind with too many riders in multiple crashes.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Open Question:

If the other DSs and riders felt that Saxo was taking advantage of the situation, why did everyone go along? Do they not have brains?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

To follow the NASCAR analogy through...yes there is a yellow flag and yes racers do hold their positions until the race resumes...but the point is it usually does resume. It doesn't end with one driver convincing everyone to stop racing on the final lap.

I'm not arguing the neutralization if there was oil on the road...I said I would change my opinion and I have. I'm just saying that the NASCAR analogy is still relevant.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

First, props to Chavanel. The best part is that he's a real threat now. A great climber that tt's well too and they spotted him almost 4 minutes - I love it. 

As far as the nonsense at the end, nothing prevented the riders from sitting up right after the descent to let everyone catch back on, but to wait another 20k down the road is total bullsheet. Thor is right to pissed off.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Salsa_Lover said:


> How is that they can use the radios to remote-control the race, but can't use them to give alert and coordinate and action to avoid the carnage ?


Think about where the riders are, then where the team cars are. It will come to you.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

IMO, FC organized the protest, so that AS wouldn't lose too much time against his rivals......


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Cry babies.



Chris Horner said:


> "They put on a dangerous stage and so when they put it on like that, that's the result they'll get," Horner told Cyclingnews. "They got all their drama on the descent and they lost it all at the finish and they got what they deserved. The only thing more stupid about this stage is the pro cycling federation and Cedric Vasseur for ever letting a stage like this exist in the first place. There's no place in the Tour de France for a stage like this."


Quit being a ***** Horner. It's a freakin' bike race. So the organizers are expected to control the weather too?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

cpark said:


> IMO, FC organized the protest, so that AS wouldn't lose too much time against his rivals......


It sounds as if he was able to get the backing of race officials before the race was actually over. IMO, times for riders like CVV should be neutralized, as well. He done got screwed twice today. I hope Garmin is protesting.


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## tstraz (Nov 23, 2006)

Unfortunately CVV is out of the race with two broken ribs. http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/news/126109_126109

Watching the Versus coverage, I felt awful for CVV. Chavanel was getting his jerseys as CVV was rolling in. Looks like he had a black eye also. 

Hats off to Chavanel. When I saw him roll off the front at the start of the race, I was hoping he would win. He's a great competitor.

Not impressed with Horner or Levi. Their comments make them look like pansies in comparison to the effort that Jens Voigt put in for the Schelcks. Got to respect a man who lets his riding speak for him.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

bmxhacksaw said:


> Cry babies.
> 
> 
> 
> Quit being a ***** Horner. It's a freakin' bike race. So the organizers are expected to control the weather too?


you've got no clue. Seriously, everyone who thinks the guys racing the Tour aren't tough are clueless.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> you've got no clue. Seriously, everyone who thinks the guys racing the Tour aren't tough are clueless.


He didn't say he wasn't tough. He said he was whining. Big difference.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Oil, water, dogs, furniture, snow.......it's road racing. Things are on the road. How much oil can one motorcycle spill on the road in one spot to cause accidents at multiple places. The motorcycle excuse is crap. The motorbike didn't go down in it's own oil and the fact that it went down is not an excuse that the roads are bad. Even the "best" need to get lucky.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

jorgy said:


> It sounds as if he was able to get the backing of race officials before the race was actually over. IMO, times for riders like CVV should be neutralized, as well. He done got screwed twice today. I hope Garmin is protesting.



They can protest, but it won't heal CVV's broken ribs or put him on the start line tomorrow.

Looks like Garmin will be gunning for stage wins and green for the rest of this tour, provided Dean and Farrar are up to it.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

tstraz said:


> Not impressed with Horner or Levi. Their comments make them look like pansies in comparison to the effort that Jens Voigt put in for the Schelcks. Got to respect a man who lets his riding speak for him.


“Remember in the ancient Rome, the gladiator fights they had?” Voigt said. “It’s going to be awesome, it’s spectacular for the people on the sofa, having a little Bud Lite on the side, but for us poor fellows on the road there, for us it’s terrible. It’s hard, dangerous, stressful and basically has chaos, mayhem and broken bones all over it.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/sports/cycling/06tour.html?hp


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

Brings back memories when Eddy would cry about tough / dangerous stages; yea right. How many times did Hinault force a "neutralized" stage because someone fell? Wonder what people thought back when Jacques Anquetil would whine about no tv's in the cars?

It's the biggest bike race in the world, and you are the best bike riders in the world, act like it. The stories say half the peloton ended up falling, why penalize the ones that didn't? I guess I really don't understand all the "gentleman's rules" it's a race!


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Just to stir the pot...there is at least one person who posted a comment on the VeloNews site that claims he was at the spot on the course where the oil was spilled. According to him, no motorcycle crashed there. Those riders went down on a wet road only. 

"_This report is soooo wrong! I was there at the crash directly in front of it when it occurred. There was no fall by Gavazzi and most certainly no motorbike fall at this location. The crash happened just after the curve near two white stripes across the road near the edge of the forest. Vino was leading the charge of the field and was one of the first to go down in the center of the pack. Andy Schleck was down on the right hand side in the ditch next to the hill. Armstrong down on the left hand side near the hill. Contador directly behind Vino. Vino and Friere were one of the first ones to get back up and away.

The road was wet and extremely slick. It had been raining off and on prior and was not raining at the time of the crash. But shortly before.
Anyway, I just wanted to write in and state how bogus the statement was regarding the cause of the crash._"

Of course...this person could have been at a different crash site, or just as easily be making this whole thing up...but since we're conjecturing from another continent anyway...


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Hawayyan said:


> Brings back memories ...


Bring back the 70 hour work week.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

justinb said:


> They can protest, but it won't heal CVV's broken ribs or put him on the start line tomorrow.
> 
> Looks like Garmin will be gunning for stage wins and green for the rest of this tour, provided Dean and Farrar are up to it.


Dang. I hadn't known he was out when I posted.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

asgelle said:


> Bring back the 70 hour work week.
> 
> After 25 years in the military, spent MANY 70 hour workweeks, whiner


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I give props for Andy getting up and moving like he did after the wreck.. Watching it live this morning was unlike any stage I can remember seeing. Almost a meat grinder.. Sad About CVV.. hopefully the rest of the stages go more cleanly. I'm all for hard stages but not at the expense of the riders.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Hawayyan said:


> Brings back memories when Eddy would cry about tough / dangerous stages; yea right. How many times did Hinault force a "neutralized" stage because someone fell? Wonder what people thought back when Jacques Anquetil would whine about no tv's in the cars?
> 
> It's the biggest bike race in the world, and you are the best bike riders in the world, act like it. The stories say half the peloton ended up falling, why penalize the ones that didn't? I guess I really don't understand all the "gentleman's rules" it's a race!


if you want to play the historical card, tell me another single stage EVER in a Tour when virtually every team leader crashed at least once, one where the majority of every team went down, some 3 times. Riders weren't neutralizing a tough stage - they were neutralizing a dangerous one. Big difference.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> Just to stir the pot...there is at least one person who posted a comment on the VeloNews site that claims he was at the spot on the course where the oil was spilled. According to him, no motorcycle crashed there. Those riders went down on a wet road only


Not saying isn't possible, but the motorcycle and oil story does sound sketchy. To lay a bunch of oil down, you've got to puncture the crankcase, which would be highly unusual in that type of crash (laying the bike down on a slick road).


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> if you want to play the historical card, tell me another single stage EVER in a Tour when virtually every team leader crashed at least once, one where the majority of every team went down, some 3 times. Riders weren't neutralizing a tough stage - they were neutralizing a dangerous one. Big difference.


If you don't want to crash, SLOW DOWN and let the guys who want to take chances go by. 
Who says that everyone has to be able to finish the stage safely? Besides, dangerous to who, lots of guys didn't fall. To me if you apply your brakes and nothing happens, that's dangerous, if you fall trying to keep up with everyone else on a wet road and crash, sometimes 3 times, that's tough. Chavenal didn't think it was too dangerous.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

best tweet i've seen all day..

@Michael_Creed It never ceases to amaze me how quick people behind a computer or TV are willing to call the best in the world wimps. Unreal.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Why is the stage being called neutralized, there were gaps of from 3:56 minutes to 19:03 minutes.
It seems to me that if the stage was neutralized Chavenal would have gotten the yellow jersey, everyone else would have gotten the same 3:56 minutes, and points for the green jersey would have been nullified. Points for the polka dots would still be awarded because they were earned before the "neutralization" of the stage.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

wiz525 said:


> best tweet i've seen all day..
> 
> @Michael_Creed It never ceases to amaze me how quick people behind a computer or TV are willing to call the best in the world wimps. Unreal.


But then again, I've never seen bicycle racers on the Discovery Channel's tv show "Worlds Toughest Jobs".

Some of those "people behind a computer or TV" actually do have tough jobs compared to bike racing.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

It is all racing so:

Why do riders get rebuked for attacking if a leader is off the side of a road to pee?
Why do officials look the other way if a rider rides in the team cars to get back on after a crash?
Why do top sprinters get respect and space when winding up in a sprint?
Why do riders get rebuked for attacking in a feed zone?
Why did Lance wait for Ulrich and vice versa?
Why did LANCE ARMSTRONG say it was like ice out there?


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Hawayyan said:


> But then again, I've never seen bicycle racers on the Discovery Channel's tv show "Worlds Toughest Jobs".
> 
> Some of those "people behind a computer or TV" actually do have tough jobs compared to bike racing.


Read again; Michael never said they had a worlds toughest job, just that they are not wimps.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> It is all racing so:
> 
> Why do riders get rebuked for attacking if a leader is off the side of a road to pee?
> Why do officials look the other way if a rider rides in the team cars to get back on after a crash?
> ...


1. No idea, pee off the bike while riding, triathletes do it all the time
2. When do riders EVER ride IN the team car to catch up and not get caught?
3. They don't always, look at the complaints from yesterday
4. Don't know that either, it's a race
5. Why did Postal attack on the Passage du Gois, 1999 TDF, stage 2, while teams were caught behind on a narrow causeway, and put one of their main rivals, Alex Zulle 6:24 down, so they only wait when it's convenient
6. So if LANCE ARMSTRONG says it, it MUST be so

For the most part, all this crap gets done when it's convenient, not when it's not


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

AdamM said:


> Not saying isn't possible, but the motorcycle and oil story does sound sketchy. To lay a bunch of oil down, you've got to puncture the crankcase, which would be highly unusual in that type of crash (laying the bike down on a slick road).


This is true. The only thing to cause an "oil slick" would be a fuel or oil leak (yes, gasoline is slippery). Is there any video of the bike going down? I've lowsided on motorcycles and never had any leaks or busted crankcases.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Interesting that they showed the Lampre rider hitting the deck in the same spot the entire peloton went down. So if there's "no lampre rider crashing" I find that story already pretty doubtful.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

Hawayyan said:


> But then again, I've never seen bicycle racers on the Discovery Channel's tv show "Worlds Toughest Jobs".
> 
> Some of those "people behind a computer or TV" actually do have tough jobs compared to bike racing.


It appears Hawayyan is tougher than every guy in the Tour. Congrats to you.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Hawayyan said:


> But then again, I've never seen bicycle racers on the Discovery Channel's tv show "Worlds Toughest Jobs".
> 
> Some of those "people behind a computer or TV" actually do have tough jobs compared to bike racing.


sure, then again when my computer crashes I'm not going to fly off a cliff...


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

which one of you guys have raced pro? get back to me when your mortgage and food are paid for by turning the pedals. we weren't there, but all evidence points to dangerous conditions. neutralize the finish to prevent a repeat of yesterday - these guys gotta feed their families and they have to ride tomorrow.


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Interesting that they showed the Lampre rider hitting the deck in the same spot the entire peloton went down. So if there's "no lampre rider crashing" I find that story already pretty doubtful.


Yeah, they showed the rider go down and they showed the motorcycle go down while trying to go around him on the tv broadcast this morning. They didn't show the aftermath, so I have no idea about the leak, but the bike and the motorcycle definitely went down. 

A motorcycle went down in the area of the big crash, a fuel leak would have pretty much the same result as an oil leak (_so no broken crankcase is required_) and there were a lot of confused riders from among the best in the world stating that they had no idea why they suddenly couldn't keep their bikes upright despite having done so in the rain for the entire stage up to that one area. Regardless of opinions (_I'll keep mine to myself on this one_) on how things played out (_or should play out_) after the crashes, I'd say there's at least an arguable case that it wasn't just weather, route choice or lack of HTFU.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

That was weak, it is a race. The ones who laid back in protest should be fined about $2000 a piece. I am sure the team sponsors weren't very happy with that either. 

Dangerous? Yes, but isn't that racing? If a course is too dangerous maybe that team should consider not participate in that event.

Sorry JMO

EDIT: I just read CVVs remarks and maybe my statement above was a little harsh but I still think a race is a race.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

LWP said:


> Yeah, they showed the rider go down and they showed the motorcycle go down while trying to go around him on the tv broadcast this morning. They didn't show the aftermath, so I have no idea about the leak, but the bike and the motorcycle definitely went down.
> 
> A motorcycle went down in the area of the big crash, a fuel leak would have pretty much the same result as an oil leak (_so no broken crankcase is required_) and there were a lot of confused riders from among the best in the world stating that they had no idea why they suddenly couldn't keep their bikes upright despite having done so in the rain for the entire stage up to that one area. Regardless of opinions (_I'll keep mine to myself on this one_) on how things played out (_or should play out_) after the crashes, I'd say there's at least an arguable case that it wasn't just weather, route choice or lack of HTFU.


Yep, and they just showed it AGAIN on the VS replay.

No crash my ass...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I read some rider comments*

they said crashes were occurring in straightaways, guys were just sliding out which to me goes with the moto spilling oil theory
these guys race in the rain often, there was another factor


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

I didn't see any video of the guys crashing, Eurosports cut to commercials while the crashes were occurring. Lance later said he mangled his bike pretty good and broke his cleat in half. Not sure why guys would just start crashing, even on straight roads. As others have mentioned, these have raced on wet and rainy road before so it's not something new. Fluid from the motorbike sounds plausible, or some other source?


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

tstraz said:


> Not impressed with Horner or Levi. Their comments make them look like pansies in comparison to the effort that Jens Voigt put in for the Schelcks. Got to respect a man who lets his riding speak for him.


Clearly you've logged hundreds of road races including 3-week grand tours, so you would know that Horner and Levi are "pansies."


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Absolutly agree with the call to let the GC contenders return to the group and neutralize the race.
Sparticus and the others who decided to sit up and allow that to happen demonstrated sportsmanship at the highest level.
The person who wins this should do so going Mano-a-Mano with the best riders in the sport - not the lucky survivors of one accident.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

JimT said:


> Dangerous? Yes, but isn't that racing? If a course is too dangerous maybe that team should consider not participate in that event.
> 
> Sorry JMO
> 
> EDIT: I just read CVVs remarks and maybe my statement above was a little harsh but I still think a race is a race.


And how many Grand Tours have you ridden to qualify yourself as an authority in concluding that these guys should have raced hard throughout the course?


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

asciibaron said:


> which one of you guys have raced pro? get back to me when your mortgage and food are paid for by turning the pedals. we we're there, but all evidence points to dangerous conditions. neutralize the finish to prevent a repeat of yesterday - these guys gotta feed their families and they have to ride tomorrow.


Excellent post. Stunning to read so many posts on this thread, half of these guys have never raced, yet they throw Cancellara under the bus. Maybe if someone on this board wins Paris-Roubaix 2x, MSR, Flanders and plenty of ITTs and road races, can they please identify themselves as such and justify why the riders should have gone balls out today despite the carnage.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

JimT said:


> That was weak, it is a race.


of which they still have the better part of 3 weeks yet to complete... do you want to see the race become 12 guys over the next week and then 2 guys for the following week - that's all that would be left.


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## theBreeze (Jan 7, 2002)

Chavenal was ahead of the oil spill.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

wiz525 said:


> It appears Hawayyan is tougher than every guy in the Tour. Congrats to you.


I never claimed to be any tougher than anyone else, why would you think I was comparing myself to the tour riders, that's strange.

All I am saying is why neutralize the stage. If you don't want to take chances, don't. If you do, go ahead. Why sit up at the front of the race and don't let ANYONE race?

If I was Cancellara, et al, and Thor lost the green jersey in the end by lets say about ten points or so, I'd be scared spitless, keep riding right on past the Arc De Triomphe, and TT my way all the way back to Switzerland!!


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Hawayyan said:


> I never claimed to be any tougher than anyone else, why would you think I was comparing myself to the tour riders, that's strange.
> 
> All I am saying is why neutralize the stage. If you don't want to take chances, don't. If you do, go ahead. Why sit up at the front of the race and don't let ANYONE race?
> 
> If I was Cancellara, et al, and Thor lost the green jersey in the end by lets say about ten points or so, I'd be scared spitless, keep riding right on past the Arc De Triomphe, and TT my way all the way back to Switzerland!!


Why? Because it would be unsportsmanlike not to.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> The person who wins this should do so going Mano-a-Mano with the best riders in the sport - not the lucky survivors of one accident.


I do think Hushovd has a point - what happens if there's a big crash tomorrow on the cobblestones and Contador or say Basso get held up? Can we expect Saxo or Radio Shack to push for the stage to be neutralized? 



> Hushovd continued. "This is not fair. Will the same thing happen tomorrow? Will the times for GC be taken before the pavés sections? If Alberto Contador or another big rider crashes tomorrow on the cobblestones, he's entitled to ask for the race to be neutralised too! So when will we race, really?"


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

jorgy said:


> Why? Because it would be unsportsmanlike not to.


If this is what you truly believe, then do you agree with this from the 1999 Tour, stage 2:
(excerpt taken from: http://www.chainreaction.com/tourlancesummary.htm)

Disaster strikes in the 105-mile second stage that takes the peloton across the Passage du Gois, a narrow causeway that's buried underwater during the high tide. A rider crashes hard, knocking 10 racers off their bikes. Anyone behind the crash is held up as racers scramble to remount.

Breaking with tradition that says no attacks when a racer crashes, riders off the front smell opportunity and put the hammer down. They finish more than 6 minutes ahead of the second group, which includes Zulle and several other key rivals. The race could have been very different had second-place Zulle not lost the time. Armstrong drops to second in the overall standings, but he's 6:24 ahead Zulle.


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

tinkerbeast said:


> yup... seems awfully unfair to thor and vande velde... either let the race run its course for a sprint finish or give everyone behind chavanel the same time (still sucks for thor). convenient how things worked out for saxo bank but not the guys behind them huh? oh yea totally the right thing to do not hypocritical at all....


considering VdV is out of the race with broken ribs that doesn't matter.

FC did the right thing neutralizing the finish without a doubt.

at first I was kind of perplexed now learning that their was oil covered on a WET descent 

to the guy saying officials should of done something...not much could of been done I don't think.

Chad


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Hawayyan said:


> If you don't want to crash, SLOW DOWN and let the guys who want to take chances go by.
> Who says that everyone has to be able to finish the stage safely? Besides, dangerous to who, lots of guys didn't fall. To me if you apply your brakes and nothing happens, that's dangerous, if you fall trying to keep up with everyone else on a wet road and crash, sometimes 3 times, that's tough. Chavenal didn't think it was too dangerous.


Chavanel also didn't hit an oil slick 

Chad


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

Hawayyan said:


> If this is what you truly believe, then do you agree with this from the 1999 Tour, stage 2:
> (excerpt taken from: http://www.chainreaction.com/tourlancesummary.htm)
> 
> Disaster strikes in the 105-mile second stage that takes the peloton across the Passage du Gois, a narrow causeway that's buried underwater during the high tide. A rider crashes hard, knocking 10 racers off their bikes. Anyone behind the crash is held up as racers scramble to remount.
> ...



A distinction can be drawn between crashes that occur due to known natural but challenging course conditions... things like rain, cobbles, or narrow passages and completely unexpected things like fuel product all over the road. 

Today was clearly different than a couple guys going down on a rainy descent. Half of the best bike handlers in the world couldn't stay up even when they were traveling in a straight line. 

That distinction leads me to believe there won't be a similar protest tomorrow.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

so tomorrow if the cobbles are wet, and slippery as oil, as has been described during the Hell Of The North, do you neutralize that stage too?


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

Hawayyan said:


> so tomorrow if the cobbles are wet, and slippery as oil, as has been described during the Hell Of The North, do you neutralize that stage too?


I'm really starting to think you are stupid.

slippery LIKE oil and oil on the roads because of a motorbike crash are two VERY different things this was a unnatural freak occurrence in a race should it be decided by it?

if someone crashes tomorrow they won't attack but it won't be neutralized either what is so hard to understand?

I don't forsee any protests either.

Chad


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

In this blog, Simon Gerrans says that there _was_ something on the road: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycl...ur/a-bad-day-at-the-office/20100706-zxtv.html
In those circumstances, neutralising the stage is reasonable. I'm not sure its fair of Horner to blame the race organisers though - they can't control the weather, and motorbike crashes severe enough to spread oil all over the road are pretty unusual.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

I am amazed at how the racers that we respect for their opinions and we normally call heroes are now being called wimps. If Horner says it was dangerous far beyond normal bike racing, I'll take his word for it.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

Update on the Garmin guys. Tyler has a broken wrist but will start tomorrow.
http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2010/07/05/update-tour-de-france-stage-2


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## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

fornaca68 said:


> Excellent post. Stunning to read so many posts on this thread, half of these guys have never raced, yet they throw Cancellara under the bus. Maybe if someone on this board wins Paris-Roubaix 2x, MSR, Flanders and plenty of ITTs and road races, can they please identify themselves as such and justify why the riders should have gone balls out today despite the carnage.


Uhhh, aren't they doing what all sports fans do? So what you are saying is that only major league shortstops can criticize Derek Jeter? 

Back in the day, I paid $40 for PPV of Tyson - Michael Spinks. I had a bunch of people over. Tyson knocked him out in 91 seconds and that was with Spinks running away from him. I have never fought 80s Mike Tyson but if I see Michael Spinks on the street (24 years later) I'm going to ask him for my $40 back.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

Nimitz said:


> I'm really starting to think you are stupid.
> 
> There we go, I'm stupid because I have a different opinion than you!!! Thor and the Cervello Test Team had a different opinion than yours too, looks like I'm with stupid. I'm a bike "racing" fan. If I wanted to watch a bike "tour", well, I wouldn't.
> 
> ...


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

Hawayyan said:


> The oil thing, on the road, I can understand that to a point. But one blogger from the peloton stated that the oil spread down the road for about 200 meters! How much oil does a motorcycle crankcase hold.
> 
> To me, if ya can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. I don't care if someone wins the tour by 10 hours, I just want to see them RACE, not soft pedal along.


It's simple, 1/4 of a quart of oil / gas can easily cover 100 sq ft as it is suspended on top of the water... you know the whole water doesn't mix with oil?  :idea: Give a few minutes and gravity 200+ meters is easily possible with a very small amount of oil or random fluid from the bike. But does it really matter? Still remains that 200+ meters of the course was contaminated with something to make 30+% of the best bike handlers in the world to crash, some multiple times...

I think we get it though, you'd rather see a Beloki-esque crash or like the recent Ten Dam crash because they were 'racing.' :mad2:


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Chapeau to Chavanel. A great win and a well deserved maillot jaune. :thumbsup:


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

theBreeze said:


> Chavenal was ahead of the oil spill.


Must've been a BP float in the caravan.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

The protests, the insurrections, the largesse unfairly parceled out, and the pigheadedness of the organizers are as much a part of the TdF as sunflowers, the Alps and stray dogs. It's all part of what makes it such a gripping experience. Sure, it's a race. But it's so much more than a race. With its patrons, stalwart spear carriers and reckless egomaniacs, the peloton as much a community as it is a bunch of bicyclists competing for a prize. The tour is life played out on the public roads.


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## Little Frenchie (Jul 6, 2010)

*Tour de France*

Hello everybody

I'm sorry to disturb you in your conversation, but I'm French and I'm trying to find a website or something where I can find articles or papers (in English, French or Spanish maybe) about bike, and more especially about the Tour de France.. Is there someone that can help me ?  


Thank you


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## Haridic (Jun 9, 2008)

Aight ladies, chill who cares. Fact remains is that it's the boys in the TDF doing whatever they damn well please. Don't go around to the hardmen like Cancellara, Voight, Millar, Martin et al and tell them they're "soft".

They've risen up through the ranks and ridden through unspeakable conditions and incredibly tough races like multiple Paris-Roubaix's, LBLs, Worlds and their own national championships. They've proven time and time again they're the toughest roadbike riders on this planet. If they're racing they can choose whether they all want to neutralise the race or not, its been done before. Let's not focus on the neutralisation of this particular stage and focus on the incredible ride by Chavanel and the strength he showed in attacking his breakaway,twice, and then being able to stay out and win the yellow jersey having been up the road since the 17th km.


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## asciibaron (Aug 11, 2006)

i doubt that Chavanel would have won had the peloton attacked after the descent. they had plenty of time to swallow him up with 5K to go.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Hawayyan said:


> Nimitz said:
> 
> 
> > I'm really starting to think you are stupid.
> ...


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Some are unable to see beyond their own viewpoint.


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