# Do You Hate Shimano?



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

See subject. Seems like in some recent threads comparing Shimano with other component makers, there's usually at least one person decrying the "Shimano hatred" that's "suddenly become hip" in the cycling world.

This poll is simply to gauge if that 'Shimano-hatred' really does exist (and if so, why?) or if that's just a bunch of hooey. :idea: 

Well-thought out responses only, pls. Posts that just repeat fanboy cliches don't really tell us much.
.


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## Pancho's Balls (Aug 15, 2009)

Are Trek's good bikes?

/fürst


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

After Suntour got out, Campy was too much $$ for me as a college kiddie. I've not had any issue with Shimano though I haven't had each generation. Shimano 600, 600EX then a mix of 7700 and the 6600. It clicks - goes into gear, it stops...what more can I ask of it beyond auto shifting, not wearing out or having to maintain it? 

I've accumulated some Rival bits so at some point I'll give that gruppo a spin but I'll ride what fits my budget.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

bucket loads of hooey. :thumbsup:


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## Topher (Jun 5, 2005)

You are missing a choice - not hate, not disappointment, but dislike. I dislike shimano.


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## wvucyclist (Sep 6, 2007)

Though it doesn't quite make sense: the reviews for 7900 and 6700 say it's not quite as crisp and nice as their predecessor, they continue the trend in revamping 5500, which btw, is my favorite shimano group.
The fact that shimano openly welcomed Sram into the road components game (not like they had a choice) means that they're accepting of a challenge to better themselves and their components.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

They're innovators who make a quality product at a great price. My '77 Schwinn came with Shimano friction shifters, and derailleurs. They've never needed anything more than a tweak. I've got an 8 speed Sora/Tiagra equipped bike with probably 5000 miles on it that's never misses a shift, and an equally trouble free Ultegra machine. Knocking on wood, I see no reason to criticize.


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## golfernut78 (Mar 19, 2009)

i like shimano. i've only had one issue with a part, and it was over 15 years ago when a 7 speed rapid fire shift pod exploded on me. i've only used grip shift since then (they are much simpler and i've never destroyed one yet). other than that, i've had zero issues with shimano. with the new ergonomics of the 7900/6700 groups, the one pro that SRAM had in my eyes is no longer there - for me atleast.

that said, i don't have any problem with the other groups with the exception of campy's cost.


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## kbg (Jun 23, 2009)

golfernut78 said:


> i've only had one issue with a part, and it was over 15 years ago when a 7 speed rapid fire shift pod exploded on me.


LOL - I had exactly the same thing happen! It was on an old GT MTB, you know the ones with the chainstays that crossed over the seat tube and connected with the top tube. Wish I could remember the model name. Those were the days ;-)

IMHO, Shimano makes solid parts that are usually very well engineered (but perhaps slightly overpriced).


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

They are Japanese and make fishing gear. Off course I hate them. I'm not about to open my Gucci wallet for no Asian crap. yeah I hear it works and is a good value but at the expence of my image? No way.


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## saf-t (Sep 24, 2008)

Hank Stamper said:


> They are Japanese and make fishing gear. Off course I hate them. I'm not about to open my Gucci wallet for no Asian crap. yeah I hear it works and is a good value but at the expence of my image? No way.


Their reels are great- unfortunately, I can't afford what I want. I can afford their bike stuff, which works just fine.


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## Mootsie (Feb 4, 2004)

A choice should have been "use it, but prefer others".


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

Another choice should be "Italian parts on Italian bikes, there is no option."


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## BikeFixer (May 19, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> They are Japanese and make fishing gear. Off course I hate them. I'm not about to open my Gucci wallet for no Asian crap. yeah I hear it works and is a good value but at the expence of my image? No way.


Did you mean EXPENSE?  
Just checking

I don't understand the Shimano hate. It's as if people hate them because they are a big company. Well how do you think they got big in the first place? By making quality products at a reasonable price.
It's much the same as Starbucks hatred, people hate them because they are big, they are big because they make a product people like. There was a protest in the town I used to live when they were putting in a Starbucks all these idiots were out there with signs that say "buy local" and stuff like that. Buy local.... somebody DID and that's how Starbucks got to their size in the first place.
Shimano and Starbucks didn't START out big they grew....
$0.02


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## deadlegs2 (Oct 3, 2009)

No but I'd rather use Daiwa


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

THe only thing that irks me about shimano is their recent decision to treat components as fashion accessories that get re-styled every year. 

Otherwise, they make good stuff.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Shimano bashing has been the mark of a faux connesuir for ages.


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## zipptrek (Jun 16, 2002)

I hate it when my shifter breaks, I take it apart and find all it needs is a small spring to fix. Then they won't sell me one and I have to buy a whole new shifter. 
That made up my mind real quick.
Campy all the way. I just rebuilt my Record shifter and the rear derailleur after about 7 yrs and 20,000 miles. It shifts like new again. Why buy disposable components, bad for the environment, LOL


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## BikeFixer (May 19, 2009)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Shimano bashing has been the mark of a faux connesuir for ages.



LMAO

Well said and true :thumbsup:


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## j-man (Sep 3, 2009)

i hate shimano and campy


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I ate Shimano last night. Very tasty. I love Japanese food, especially when accompanied by a rice stir fry.


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## Slim Again Soon (Oct 25, 2005)

Shimano is like Microsoft ... _except Shimano stuff works great!_


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I absolutely loved the first generation 7400 DuraAce. Got me off Campy for years. But I eventually went back to Campy as, after a few hiccups, they got indexing/Ergo right. I just preferred the ergonomics, the shifting (multi), and aesthetics to STI.

And lately it seems to me that, at least aesthetically, Shimano is going backwards. Up close and personal, the 7900 DuraAce is, in my opinion, cheap looking and ugly.

That being said, Sram, Campy, Shimano.....it all works extremely well, even the cheap Sora stuff.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*Shimano fishing gear - off topic*



saf-t said:


> Their reels are great- unfortunately, I can't afford what I want. I can afford their bike stuff, which works just fine.


My only experience with Shimano fishing gear scared me off. Years back some friends and I went fishing in northern Quebec. Were were trolling for walleye. One on the guys hooked a fish and starting letting out line on the drag. Perhaps due to heat, the spool on his Shimano spinning reel exploded apart. I lent him my US-made Penn backup real and he was good for the trip


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Slim Again said:


> Shimano is like Microsoft ... _except Shimano stuff works great!_


This made me LOL. Nice post. :lol:
.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Looking at the poll results thus far (and, okay, it is admittedly early yet), does not appear that many ppl *hate* Shimano.

Perhaps this is an overhyped concept? :idea:
.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

I was a bike mechanic for years. I've had bikes with Campy and Shimano both. While the ultimate bike for me would be and Italian frame with Campy on it my current DA equipped bike suits me fine. Having said that I've seen Shimano pull some shady things in the past.


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

i was "not happy" when my nine speed shifter broke, couldnt be replaced and had no option but to buy new. which they dont make anymore.

otherwise, good quality stuff, 105 nice, tough to beat ultegra and ace straight up


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

zipptrek said:


> I hate it when my shifter breaks, I take it apart and find all it needs is a small spring to fix. Then they won't sell me one and I have to buy a whole new shifter.
> That made up my mind real quick.
> Campy all the way. I just rebuilt my Record shifter and the rear derailleur after about 7 yrs and 20,000 miles. It shifts like new again. Why buy disposable components, bad for the environment, LOL


That's the only real issue with Shimano, but apparently their stuff doesn't break that often or somebody would see the hole in the market and start making replacement parts. Wouldn't that be a hoot if Campy started marketing a line of Shimano rebuild kits? I'm sure it's frustrating when something right out of warranty breaks and you've got to buy a new one, but by the time you get most failures I think folks are ready to upgrade anyway. If you do have a little spring break and don't want to throw out a nearly new shifter, a real watch repair shop (watch maker) could probably fabricate you one- might cost more than the shifter, though.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

I'm too busy hatin' on Trek and Lance to have much energy left for Shimano, but I try.


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## mjdwyer23 (Mar 18, 2009)

What is this, the lawnj?


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Pablo said:


> I'm too busy hatin' on Trek and Lance to have much energy left for Shimano, but I try.


This made me LOL. 
.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

mjdwyer23 said:


> What is this, the lawnj?


What is this, call out a lurker Friday?


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

I use, and am happy with Shimano. Pretty sure that if I used Campy or SRAM, I would be happy wih them too.

Do I LOVE Shimano? Nah.... but would be happy to love Anni (see Podium Girls)


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## mjdwyer23 (Mar 18, 2009)

rogger said:


> What is this, call out a lurker Friday?


nothing of the sort! (back to my cave)


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## Dustintendo (Dec 7, 2008)

cyclesport45 said:


> I use, and am happy with Shimano. Pretty sure that if I used Campy or SRAM, I would be happy wih them too.
> 
> Do I LOVE Shimano? Nah.... but would be happy to love Anni (see Podium Girls)



man face


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

To ask the obvious follow-up question to the poll,

If you hate, dislike, or are disappointed with Shimano, can you go into a bit of detail as to _*why*_ you feel this way? :idea:


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## Old School Misanthrope (Dec 31, 2009)

I've been around all this stuff for 40 plus years (wow am i really that old ) shimano has made some excellent stuff, BUT recently not so they downgrade their established graded groupe (example)xt as having sealed bearings & made in Japan to Malaysian bean counter walmart !!!! Their xt parallel push brakes are not parallel push , no more you must buy xtr for 4 x the price to get same quality.this is not all I could go on. but I'm OLD & don't have that much time left.... SO SMAME ON YOU SHIMANO i will not buy their stuff if i don't half to
last year built touring wheels with xt hubs 36 hole & well do you want to buy some wheels with oscillating freehub that destroyed $70 worth of chain and are now less than worthless because of the grief & troubleshooting they caused. life is about experience, mine of recent is shimano is no longer quality @ A price point but just a price point sans quality ... sort of reminds me of the apollo 13 movie that stated does't it feel good to be tied x billion dollars of parts sold to the lowest bidder


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Only time that Ive had a problem with Shimano is when I broke something myself.


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## Old School Misanthrope (Dec 31, 2009)

zipptrek said:


> I hate it when my shifter breaks, I take it apart and find all it needs is a small spring to fix. Then they won't sell me one and I have to buy a whole new shifter.
> That made up my mind real quick.
> Campy all the way. I just rebuilt my Record shifter and the rear derailleur after about 7 yrs and 20,000 miles. It shifts like new again. Why buy disposable components, bad for the environment, LOL


ditto that's responsible way old school ..say halalua....


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm curious as to why someone would post a poll like this.


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## golfernut78 (Mar 19, 2009)

Old School Misanthrope said:


> I've been around all this stuff for 40 plus years (wow am i really that old ) shimano has made some excellent stuff, BUT recently not so they downgrade their established graded groupe (example)xt as having sealed bearings & made in Japan to Malaysian bean counter walmart !!!! Their xt parallel push brakes are not parallel push , no more you must buy xtr for 4 x the price to get same quality.this is not all I could go on. but I'm OLD & don't have that much time left.... SO SMAME ON YOU SHINANO i will not buy their stuff if i don't half to


i noticed that this year when i replaced my v-brakes. i planned on another set of xt parallel push, but all there was was xtr. i just figured it was them phasing v-brakes out in lieu of disc brakes.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

If it were like Microsoft, Shimano would look like a half-a$$ed version of a 10 year old Campy knock-off.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Shimano,Campy...they all work. No hate here.
Run 7800 & 7900 and while it didn't go backwards, it didn't make progress either, IMO.

Let's hope it doesn't accelerate all by itself and brakes keep working.....


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Dajianshan said:


> If it were like Microsoft, Shimano would look like a half-a$$ed version of a 10 year old Campy knock-off.


Does 7900/6700 seemingly being mostly comprised of SRAM-inspired ideas count?


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## G**G (Dec 30, 2005)

I only use S**TMANO because I can't afford anything else...I'm a student!!


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## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

Love em or hate em, you've got to admit, that most of the mechanical advances we've come to love can be credited to Shimano. Indexed shifting, dual pivot brakes, integrated brake shift levers, external bearing cranks'bottom brackets, etc. While Campy has always made components of impeccable quality and taste, if it were not for Shimano, we may still be shifting with friction shifters on the downtube.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

cyclust said:


> Love em or hate em, you've got to admit, that most of the mechanical advances we've come to love can be credited to Shimano. Indexed shifting, dual pivot brakes, integrated brake shift levers, external bearing cranks'bottom brackets, etc. While Campy has always made components of impeccable quality and taste, if it were not for Shimano, we may still be shifting with friction shifters on the downtube.


Seems like some of the credit goes to Suntour as well... they invented the slant-parallelogram derailleur.

Without that, not sure indexed shifting would've been possible, due to the need for a very consistent chain gap– which that type of derailleur provides.
.


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## randyharris (Aug 27, 2009)

No poll answer to fit me: Not hating, but prefer the underdog SRAM.


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## wasserbox (Mar 17, 2002)

Old School Misanthrope said:


> Their xt parallel push brakes are not parallel push , no more you must buy xtr for 4 x the price to get same quality


FWIW - the XT brakes were NEVER the same quality as XTR. They used ceramic bushings in the linkage, vs XTR's ball bearings.

If you had bought the XTR's, you wouldn't need to replace them with new ones every couple years, because you could overhaul them.

I have 3 sets of XT calipers in a box that were used for a season, then got a little bit of dirt in the bushings and haven't worked right since....

Find some used M960 series calipers on Ebay, clean and regrease them, and you will have brakes 4 life.


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## merlinluvr (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't know if I would go so far to say I 'hate' them, but if I'm spending money on a new gruppo it's definitely Campy. Having had mostly Campy and going to Ult. 10 speed I have been severely disappointed. Horrible fitting levers for my hands, loud clanky shifting no matter how much I adjust it. I actually took it to my LBS to let them touch it, b/c NO ONE works on my bike but me, they said 'it's working great!'. Errrr, I guess I had just forgotten how much different they are in terms of smoothness and sound. 

Can I get by with Shimano....no question. Do I want to use it knowing what I know about Campy.....no way.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm new enough to the game to be quite unaware of the reputed history of various component makers, but I can safely say this: I levy umbrage against any component that isn't serviceable. I don't care who makes it, but [email protected] it, if I'm paying hundreds of dollars for gear I'd better be able to crack it open and replace a stripped gear, broken spring, or shot bearings without buying the whole part over again. I have nothing against Japanese companies. For Pete's sake I'm riding a Fuji frame!



cyclust said:


> . . .if it were not for Shimano, we may still be shifting with friction shifters on the downtube.


I like my downtube shifters! They're not antiquated, they're quaint.


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## jmlapoint (Sep 4, 2008)

I like Shimano components a lot.
I use Shimano Cranks, BB, Caliper Brakes,Chain, not to mention MTB SPD Shoes and M520 Pedals.


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## mtymxdh (Dec 21, 2007)

I have 4 bikes
2 full Shimano , 
1 full SRAM 
1 SRAMANO Rival cassette and attack shifter and Shimano Deore chain and ultegra derailleur. (it's a Dh bike)

my lbs mechanic makes everything work flawlessly....

never ever been 3 ft close to campy...


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Shimano on my MTB, Campy for road. The ergonomics of the Campy levers/hoods have always fit my hands well. I also really don't like that Shimano uses the actual brake lever as a shifter. My hands are shaped such that I shift when braking. Not good.

The other drawback to Shimano is that the components aren't repairable. No spare parts, etc. 

I don't "feel" anything toward Shimano. I just find that, for road, Campy works better for me.


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## yeti (Apr 14, 2007)

At one point Shimano was a near monopoly-telling it's customers what was best for them. They told us that we shoud be able to pull brake levers with 2 fingers. They've introduced products that the customers did not want (e.g. pods and Biopace). I want options. I don't want to be forced to use a certain product.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Every company introduces products that customers don't want or aren't popular--I commend companies that are willing to take the risk and try new things. Frankly, I think Shimano stood by and watched others (ex: SRAM) force them back into innovation mode. Nice to see Shimano putting some effort into R&D again.


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

It's funny/strange that people have such strong feelings about things like this.

I don't know about the new generation Shimano groups, but 6600 and 7800 work really, really well. So dependable, buttery-smooth, good feedback.

Also, the GCOAT, Lance Armstrong, won 7 tours on Dura-Ace (preceding is an attempt at humor, since sometimes it doesn't translate so good via the interweb fora).


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

Shimano's range of low priced gruppos (Sora, Tiagra, Deore, Acera) allow many new riders to get into this sport we love. Can we say the same about SRAM or Campy? (dunno about SRAM MTB though). 

Why hate on Shimano? Their products don't suck. I've been waiting for my 105 STIs from 2000 to die so I can "upgrade" to the new Ultegras! 

What I see here is brand loyalty in action. Shimano users like the brand, but are not as bonded to it as comapred to Campy or even SRAM boys are to theirs. It must be the brand image that Shimano projects which lacks that emotional factor that I'm sure Campy has with its long history and heritage.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

deadlegs2 said:


> No but I'd rather use Daiwa



Zebco all the way.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Friends don't let friends ride shimaNO. 

Their stuff works OK but I hate that the small parts aren't replaceable. They're great for trying to force stuff onto the consumer while not giving them other options, i.e. Biopace, though to be fair in the last few years one could say that about Campy as well. I also don't like the way they have conducted business in the past (refer to lawsuit with SRAM for more info). I won't use anything shimaNO unless I absolutely have to.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Sasquatch said:


> Shimano's range of low priced gruppos (Sora, Tiagra, Deore, Acera) allow many new riders to get into this sport we love. Can we say the same about SRAM or Campy?


I think we'll be able to say the same soon of SRAM. Their Tiagra-level Apex group is due out later this year.
.


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

The non 6700-7900 shifters make my hands numb...plus I just like saying "Campagnolo"


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Sasquatch said:


> Shimano's range of low priced gruppos (Sora, Tiagra, Deore, Acera) allow many new riders to get into this sport we love. Can we say the same about SRAM or Campy? (dunno about SRAM MTB though).
> 
> Why hate on Shimano? Their products don't suck. I've been waiting for my 105 STIs from 2000 to die so I can "upgrade" to the new Ultegras!


Because they have no life hence the hate. you'll enjoy the new 6700 series.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

^^^ gee isn't that special.


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## The Green Hour (Jul 15, 2008)

You should have added "Do you hate Troy16 " to the poll....


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

The Green Hour said:


> You should have added "Do you hate Troy16 " to the poll....


That would've gotten 100% of the votes though.
.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> That would've gotten 100% of the votes though.
> .


that's assuming Troy hates himself.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Sasquatch said:


> that's assuming Troy hates himself.


From his behavior, I'm thinking that's a given.
.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned, the more the merrier. Up until recently, Shimano OWNED the OEM market. Good to see Sram making inroads. I'm very curious to see what price points the new Sram Apex group can hit. Under a $1000, it was Shimano (2200, 2300, Sora, Tiagra) take it or leave it.

Personally, I loved DuraAce 7400. It got me off Nouvo/Super Record for years. But I didn't like STI. The brake lever as shifter and the exposed cables left me cold. I transitioned from Shimano downtube to Ergo via Sachs New Success and have since gone Campy.

No, I don't "hate" Shimano. I just prefer Campy and I like the fact that Sram is creeping up their A$$ in the OEM market. Plus I think, "bang for the buck", 2010 Sram Force is awfully hard to beat.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

*Oh so good*



PeanutButterBreath said:


> Shimano bashing has been the mark of a faux connesuir for ages.


Shimano's done right by me for 20+ years, though I think they've given up ground in both the road and MTB arenas with their latest generations. On the road, they wanted to be more like Campy, lost the exposed cables, and much of their wonderfully tactile shifting feel along with them. And SRAM's XX group is more innovative than any offering from Shimano in a decade or more. Time to shift the dollars from the marketing to the engineering department.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

Sablotny said:


> Time to shift the dollars from the marketing to the engineering department.


And it looks like SRAM is pouring $$ on both areas. Maybe something Shimano and Campy should look into considering the $$$ they have been making for years.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

PRB said:


> Friends don't let friends ride shimaNO.
> 
> Their stuff works OK but I hate that the small parts aren't replaceable.


far far better than just OK and thats a fact. they are leaders of the industry so its not just ok stuff...geez i tell ya.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

and Shimano is now making gear for Rowers. Good for em.


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## Uncle Grumpy (Jul 25, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> From his behavior, I'm thinking that's a given.
> .


Hell yeah. If I was him I'd wake up every morning and punch myself in the face.

As for Shimano...

I ride MTB and I prefer SRAM. Why? Because it functions a lot better and they had a lot of little innovations that made sense. Shimano followed suit with a few of them. 

I prefer Campag on the road bikes. Why? Umm, well I like shifters that work and don't need to be binned when they don't. I also like the feel of their shift levers. Otherwise it's all pretty samey.

And sure, I'll admit there is a bit of a snob factor. There is a part of me that just wants to NOT follow the company with the market stranglehold, and have something a bit different to 90% of the bikes I see.

Hehehe, I only appreciate Shimano stuff when it has vintage appeal, like Dura Ace 7400 or 600 Arabesque, or first generation XTR. Sad, I know...

Grumps


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## Jim311 (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't like Shimano because of what they did in the MTB world. They forced you into proprietary componentry that only worked with their stuff.

"Oh, we integrated your shifters and brakes into one goofy azz lever, you can only use a Shimano derailleur."

"Oh now that you've got our brakes, you have to run center lock rotors."

"Oh now that you're running those center lock rotors, we're the only ones making center lock hubs, so you'll have to use those as well."


A lack of choice is why I switched to SRAM and haven't looked back. I have always found them to be a better value.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Shimano, Toyota-what's the difference? The Japanese approach to engineering has finally caught up with them as copying allows for little in the way of innovation. They used to really process/assemble well though, seems they've lost their edge there too in their quest to rule the world. Oh well, I'll stick with Euro stuff anyways.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, this poll now has around 250 responses.

Judging from the results, it seems fair to call 'Shimano hatred' a fairly uncommon and overhyped concept.

So, the next time some hardcore Shimano fan whines about 'Shimano hate', I am going to point to these results and larf at them. :thumbsup:
.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

Since I got into road biking I always wanted Campy (my first road bike had Shimano 105 9 speed, _which wasn't bad at all_). So... when I saved up until I could afford Campag Centuar, and _I love it_.)

With all that being said....

_I actually really like Shimano's latest offerings._ The ergos have been changed up and the general look of the components IMO is much better (The exposed cables just wasn't doing it for me; and the gun-metal finish looks the part). Though not nearly as comfortable as Campag's Ultra Shift, it fits in the hands pretty [read: somewhat] decent for me. 
I'm seriously considering getting the new Ultegra or 105 stuff for my 2nd bike.

"Do I hate Shimano?", no.
"Would I still prefer Campagnolo?", honestly, yes.
"Would I buy Shimano?", I wouldn't mind buying Shimano at all. I guess we'll see...


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> Well, this poll now has around 250 responses.
> 
> Judging from the results, it seems fair to call 'Shimano hatred' a fairly uncommon and overhyped concept.
> 
> ...


Those who dislike Shimano are a very, very vocal, quite annoying minority. Any thread on the topic will have a multitude of "ShimaNO" and similar things, posted by people who think they're witty and original. As such, although it's a small group, they make themselves heard, unfortunately.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Mr. Scary said:


> Shimano, Toyota-what's the difference? The Japanese approach to engineering has finally caught up with them as copying allows for little in the way of innovation. They used to really process/assemble well though, seems they've lost their edge there too in their quest to rule the world. Oh well, I'll stick with Euro stuff anyways.


simply put it's the result of mass production no matter said topic, and yes that includes euro stuff. Asia can copy like no other with quality results so while it's quite easy to cast a stone when things go bad (toyota) what you say when things go exceedingly well???


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## Cbookman (Jul 2, 2009)

Can't say I hate Shimano, but I rode on a bike with 105 and didn't like the shifters or hoods. Not to mention I want a black groupset for my current build, and rival seemed like the way to go.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Sasquatch said:


> Shimano's range of low priced gruppos (Sora, Tiagra, Deore, Acera) allow many new riders to get into this sport we love. Can we say the same about SRAM or Campy? (dunno about SRAM MTB though).
> 
> Why hate on Shimano? Their products don't suck. I've been waiting for my 105 STIs from 2000 to die so I can "upgrade" to the new Ultegras!
> 
> What I see here is brand loyalty in action. Shimano users like the brand, but are not as bonded to it as comapred to Campy or even SRAM boys are to theirs. It must be the brand image that Shimano projects which lacks that emotional factor that I'm sure Campy has with its long history and heritage.


I dislike Shimano because of their business practices, the fact that they have pricing controls in the US and none in Europe, and the fact that their stuff just isn't nearly as good anymore. We had the 105 debacle in 2008 when pretty much every 105 shifter they made broke after 3 shifts. We had tons of angry customers with new bikes that wouldn't shift and replacements were weeks away.

The shifts on the new stuff feel horrible and vague. The ergonomics suck (for about 1/2 of the population, it seems - the other half love the ergonomics). I don't like something I can't fix myself. I can have a SRAM shifter complete gutted in a minute or less. A Campy shifter takes a little longer, but you can buy every single part for it. Shimano...."toss in trash, buy new shifter".

One of the women on the DePauw team stopped in Friday for some pre-race adjustments. Her right Dura-Ace shifter had f'ed up. The inner shift paddle was stuck pointing in and wouldn't do anything. She had to leave in a couple of minutes, so I just sprayed the crap out of it with dry lube and kept trying to shift it. Eventually it started working again.

I think everyone already knows about the Rapidfire shifter issue. It sucks that you can't leave your bike sitting for longer than a couple of months or the shifters won't work.

ad infinitum...


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

orangeclymer said:


> simply put it's the result of mass production no matter said topic, and yes that includes euro stuff. Asia can copy like no other with quality results so while it's quite easy to cast a stone when things go bad (toyota) what you say when things go exceedingly well???


Asia can copy with zero regard for intellectual property rights. As for things going exceedingly well, we can see by Toyota and Toyoda's example-there's no shame in doing something wrong, there is shame in getting caught.

That having been said I have owned one Asian vehicle (Nissan) and had almost no problems with it in 90K miles of driving. I had stated above I thought their approach to production is unmatched, but their approach to business, engineering, and ethics leave alot to be desired.

I'll use SRAM and Campy (and yes I know SRAM is assembled in Asia but it's still engineered in the US), and my cars will always be Euro or American (and yes I know some parts are produced in Asia there too, but once again the Engineering/business is run from the EU or the US). :thumbsup:


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

mendo said:


> Also, the GCOAT, Lance Armstrong, won 7 tours on Dura-Ace (preceding is an attempt at humor, since sometimes it doesn't translate so good via the interweb fora).


I'm glad I read the disclaimer!!! :biggrin5:


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## djg714 (Oct 24, 2005)

Shimano is the way to go. Most companies have some sort of price controls from Chris King to Campagnolo. Btw sorry to break the news,but just because it says Made in Italy doesn't mean it is......If it wasn't for Suntour and Shimano we would still be using friction shifters.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

djg714 said:


> Shimano is the way to go. Most companies have some sort of price controls from Chris King to Campagnolo. *Btw sorry to break the news,but just because it says Made in Italy doesn't mean it is......*If it wasn't for Suntour and Shimano we would still be using friction shifters.


If the Campy part says Made in Italy, it's made in Italy. Otherwise it will say "Made in Romania" which means, amazingly enough, that it's made in Romania.

Shimano is not "The way to go"; there are other options. Two of which happen to be better.

And no, I doubt we'd still be using friction shifters. Someone else would have invented them. Knowing Shimano, someone else probably did invent them. V-Brake, anyone? Shimano didn't invent it, but they sure acted like they did.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

looks like only 19% in this forum think that Shimano sucks. I'd like to hear more about the widespread failure of 08 Shimano STIs as it's non-existent in my country (80% use shimano, SRAM and campy are just too pricey for this third world market).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I don't hate 'em, but I've gotten used to Campy and prefer having a decent amount of compatibility between bikes.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Sasquatch said:


> looks like only 19% in this forum think that Shimano sucks. I'd like to hear more about the widespread failure of 08 Shimano STIs as it's non-existent in my country (80% use shimano, SRAM and campy are just too pricey for this third world market).


http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/drivetrain/groupos/shimano/PRD_27978_2497crx.aspx

http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-445502.html

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15958679


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## djg714 (Oct 24, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> If the Campy part says Made in Italy, it's made in Italy. Otherwise it will say "Made in Romania" which means, amazingly enough, that it's made in Romania.
> 
> Shimano is not "The way to go"; there are other options. Two of which happen to be better.
> 
> And no, I doubt we'd still be using friction shifters. Someone else would have invented them. Knowing Shimano, someone else probably did invent them. V-Brake, anyone? Shimano didn't invent it, but they sure acted like they did.



Dude you sound like a blowhard Republican, Just because you say it louder doesn't make it right. Shimano Di2 is here and Campy is behind. 
You are wrong about your Romania claim.Back to the drawing board for you.


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## Chop (Jun 3, 2006)

Started with gripshift on the mtb in the mid 90s... and hated it - moved to XT rapidfire as soon as I could and used that for nearly a decade. I finally got sick of it never shifting well for more than a couple of rides and constantly having to screw with it. Moved that bike to X.9 and completely love it. It now shifts a ton better than it ever did with XT and it doesn't need adjustment - it just works... really, really well.

As far as the road bike(s), first roadie came with Centaur 10 (2006) and I really liked it because (1) it was different and (2) it shifted well with a very positive action. When I was looking for roadie #2 last May, I went into it with an open mind... test rode Ultegra SL, Force, and Chorus11. The Ultegra was smooth, but it was too smooth - and instead of feeling good, it felt like junk. Force felt a lot better, a whole lot better... but I just didn't like double-tap. I rode Chorus11 last and it's heavenly. Crisp positive shifts and REALLY comfy levers sold me. 

I've never ridden anything with Shimano (XTR or 7900) that shifts as well as the X.9 or Chorus11 do for me. I don't dislike Shimano, I just like the alternatives a lot more - because they work better!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

djg714 said:


> Dude you sound like a blowhard Republican, Just because you say it louder doesn't make it right. Shimano Di2 is here and Campy is behind.
> You are wrong about your Romania claim.Back to the drawing board for you.


Liberal Democrat. Sorry.

Di2. Whoop. I'm talking about the groups that normal people use, not sh!+ that only a few can afford and/or justify.

No, I'm not wrong.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

djg714 said:


> Shimano Di2 is here and Campy is behind.


Ya, and Shimano has carbon cranks, too!
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish...s_and_info/news/dura-ace_carbon_crankset.html


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Too bad the carbon cranks are priced even more irrationally than Di2. For the price of the Shimano carbon crank, you can buy an entire SRAM Force set--which weighs less than Dura Ace, even with the carbon crank. I hope Shimano doesn't have similar pricing ideas when they finally release a BB30 crank! 

You know, it's funny... at Interbike 2009 I only saw one mechanical failure... it was the chain dropping on the Di2 test bike in the Shimano area. And the tech didn't even seem too surprised or like it was the first time. Priceless.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

djg714 said:


> Dude you sound like a blowhard Republican, Just because you say it louder doesn't make it right.


Plat owns his own bike shop and has worked in the retail/service side of the industry for many years, so I think when he makes a claim like the Romania/Italy one, I doubt he's blowing smoke. And his point about the 105 shifter failures is something that's just historical fact at this point... it happened.

Where you could reasonably disagree with him is on his opinions that Shimano's stuff isn't as good as it used to be, and that the alternatives to Shimano are better. 

But to do that effectively, you'd probably need to do more than just call him a blowhard Republican (_ouch_, btw ) and bring up Di2. Because the former is just plain mean, and the latter affects, what, 0.5% of the market at this point? 

What's interesting and pertinent is how DA/Ultegra/105/Tiagra really stack up vs SRAM's and Campy's offerings right now, in all ways... performance, price, looks/aesthetics, ergonomics, and long-term reliability/durability.

Product is the key determinant of who's really 'got it', though marketing and strategy also play a role and can make a weak hand look stronger than it really is, and vice-versa.
.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> Di2. Whoop. I'm talking about the groups that normal people use, not sh!+ that only a few can afford and/or justify.


I have to agree. I don't know how Di2 can enter into any real argument. Maybe I'm a retro-grouch, but my cable-actuation works, and it works fast and (in comparison) cheap. It's cool, and I'd take it, but "Campy/SRAM suck because they don't have Di2" is _not_ anywhere near a valid argument.

And before I'm accused of being anti-Shimano... guess what's on my bike? I just don't like invalid arguments.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

The thread is getting into that Campy vs. Shimano vs. SRAM. Many companies will experience "growing pains" and or some misguided decision/s along the way. Some better or worse for the consumer. Very easy to support the company you like and thankfully many flavors for the wallet to be happy with. The variety we have available now is great but some may see that it a cheapening of the product to meet the price point. 

Way back when, it was simple to offer a few levels, now they have to try and please all. That's tough. I do miss the purity of what some boxed bikes came equipped. In a past time, it was a complete gruppo and it seldom had significant variance in prices. Now we have such a range to buy within, it is dizzying. 

Look what SRAM is doing by adding a fourth gruppo...will they add more? As far as I see Campy, they are in the À la carte menu for those users/buyers. Good for them.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

djg714 said:


> Dude you sound like a blowhard Republican, Just because you say it louder doesn't make it right. Shimano Di2 is here and Campy is behind.
> You are wrong about your Romania claim.Back to the drawing board for you.


Campy does some forging and assembly in Romania, so what? They are still Italian, and the higher end stuff is still predominately done there. Shimano does their wheels in Malaysia now, do you think less of them?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

As for Di2, Campy does have electric groups that they have tested for years. I'd yield that technology to Shimano since most electronics the world over come out of Asia and they clearly are the industry leaders in that commodity. But if the battery life on my Light and Motion or my Ipod is any indication, you won't get the charge they claim (after a few months of use)...


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Battery capacity is a whole other world. Spec a quality pack from a Japan maker and when charged by a quality smart charging unit. You'll be happy. Get one where they farm for lower materials, or use a dumb charger you'll see it fade. Sanyo has had their share of bad packs too. I don't even want to think how many Energizer rechargeables have had reduced capacity within a year. Some of the China produced AA's I have are still at 90% of rated capacity after 3 years in use. The Sanyo Eneloops...fantastic and when paired with a MAHA C-9000 no worries. 

Anyway...cost cutting can have detrimental effects for a range of products. Even more shocking is when it is encountered on the flagship models where quality components are expected. 

Seems to me that some parts are viewed as having a specific life expectancy and the manufacturer takes the disposable route. I it would a positive attribute for Shimano to make their STi's serviceable.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr. Scary said:


> Campy does some forging and assembly in Romania, so what? They are still Italian, and the higher end stuff is still predominately done there. Shimano does their wheels in Malaysia now, do you think less of them?


Aye. They even do their own carbon in-house, FFS. That's one of the reasons for the expense. I don't know what drawing board I'm supposed to go back to....


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## cbk57 (Aug 12, 2009)

I don't hate Shimano, I just don't want my parts to be confused with fishing equipment. I had a 105 bike at one time. It worked fine but I never liked the external cable routing. I like Campy shift controls better too. The one thing I really liked about Shimano was the big brake hoods made for a really comfortable place for the hands.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

My feeling is more like "meh."


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I have Shimano on a Trek. It is a good bike.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

I voted on this days ago and am surprised to see the hatefest/lovefest still going. Actually, what intrigues me most is Platypius' hatred toward Shimano. As a shop proprietor, it's almost like they wronged you bigtime or something. At any rate, your dialogue here reads as heavily biased against them. Isn't that a little like biting the hand that feeds you? If I were a longtime devotee and walked into your shop, only to hear you rail on Shimano, it'd make me feel purty crummy. Or question your judgement.

I guess I'm not interested in hearing you defend yourself, because it's getting a little nauseating. Just chill, man. We're lucky that so many companies make incredible components nowadays. One can't go wrong with any of the high-end stuff.


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

Never really had an issue with their cycling gear or their fishing gear. I road Shimano for years until last year. I wanted the SR 11 speed and I am not disappointed with it. No hatred for Shimano, have it on the girlfriends bike still and it works great. They each have their strengths I think. It is like the Mac vs. PC argument, they both serve a purpose and neither one is going away anytime soon.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

fast ferd said:


> I voted on this days ago and am surprised to see the hatefest/lovefest still going. Actually, what intrigues me most is Platypius' hatred toward Shimano. As a shop proprietor, it's almost like they wronged you bigtime or something. At any rate, your dialogue here reads as heavily biased against them. Isn't that a little like biting the hand that feeds you? If I were a longtime devotee and walked into your shop, only to hear you rail on Shimano, it'd make me feel purty crummy. Or question your judgement.
> 
> *I guess I'm not interested in hearing you defend yourself*, because it's getting a little nauseating. Just chill, man. We're lucky that so many companies make incredible components nowadays. One can't go wrong with any of the high-end stuff.


Tough.
While I am indeed a shop owner, I'm on this site as a bike addict, and I'm allowed to have opinions just like everyone else. In my opinion, the different component manufacturers are rated thusly:
1) Campagnolo
2) SRAM
3) Shimano
4) MicroShi+/Nashbar/whatever else

This is based solely on my own preference, the availability of repair parts, the ease of repair, and the business practices of the company.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it; but I have the same right as everyone else to have an opinion.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Tough.
> While I am indeed a shop owner, I'm on this site as a bike addict, and I'm allowed to have opinions just like everyone else. In my opinion, the different component manufacturers are rated thusly:
> 1) Campagnolo
> 2) SRAM
> ...


Hey, opine all day long. Knock yourself out. Just realize that most in the poll rate Shimano favorably, much to you and the OP's likely dismay. I just reckon if you wage your one-man war to faithful Shimano customers who walk thru your doors, you'll prolly turn them off.

Oh, and sure, one of my riding buds enjoys his frequent ventures into buying spare parts for his Campy shifters. He could've paid for new ones over the course of time. :aureola: While my Dura Ace 7700 brake lever shifters approach 30k miles without any problems whatsoever. No wonder Shimano doesn't sell spare parts; there's no demand!


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

82% do not hate Shimano. I guess that pretty much confirms that Shimano hate seems widespread mainly because the haters create more noise than the non-haters. 

With 290 voters, I would say that is already a pretty good base to read off of. If the Shimano marketing guys are following this poll, they must be breathing a sigh of relief.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

fast ferd said:


> Hey, opine all day long. Knock yourself out. Just realize that most in the poll rate Shimano favorably, much to you and the OP's likely dismay


Oh, go blow it out your hindquarters. I ran the poll hoping to _disprove_ the notion of widespread 'Shimano hatred', if you'd read my posts with any level of comprehension. 

Hooked on Phonics™... try it sometime.

That said, if someone wants to dislike Shimano, I sure don't have a problem with that... I'm not one of their fanbois.
.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, the poll has hit 300 votes. Interesting results.

Looks like 52% of ppl either like or love Shimano. 18% either hate or are at least disappointed in Shimano. And 30% are in the middle, and don't care much either way.

This is encouraging for Shimano, in that if it extrapolates out to the general enthusiast population at all well (a big 'if' I know), about 50% are likely to stick with Shimano unless something very major happens to change the game.

It's also encouraging for Shimano's competitors, in that about 50% are either not high on Shimano at all, or are 'persuadable' by way of superior product/pricing to try something else.

And I think the notion of widespread 'Shimano hatred' has been disproven... seems like it's the exception, not the norm.
.


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

And there are those of us that run both and other components as well. I have 2 raod bikes all Campy, wife's bike is all Shimano and the single speed is mostly Miche and Mavic. I honestly believe that the best tool for the job is the one I can afford at the time. If Di2 were to come down in price significantly I could be persuaded to build a bike with it. Right now I like my SR 11.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

rward325 said:


> And there are those of us that run both and other components as well. I have 2 raod bikes all Campy, wife's bike is all Shimano and the single speed is mostly Miche and Mavic. I honestly believe that the best tool for the job is the one I can afford at the time. If Di2 were to come down in price significantly I could be persuaded to build a bike with it. Right now I like my SR 11.


Aye.
For road bikes, I have one SRAM, 2 Campy, and one Shimano.
It all works, I just like some better than others for various reasons.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> It's also encouraging for Shimano's competitors, in that about 50% are either not high on Shimano at all, or are 'persuadable' by way of superior product/pricing to try something else.


I'd say over 50% are persuadable. I selected that I like Shimano, but my next bike will be SRAM. I think Shimano users are somewhat likely to go to SRAM. Certainly moreso than Campy, because of the whole cassette deal - me switching to Campy would cost thousands, while my Shimano/SRAM bikes switch wheels without problems.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

*Well, pardon me all to h3ll...*



SystemShock said:


> Oh, go blow it out your hindquarters. I ran the poll hoping to _disprove_ the notion of widespread 'Shimano hatred', if you'd read my posts with any level of comprehension.
> 
> Hooked on Phonics™... try it sometime.
> 
> ...


I honestly interpreted the flavor of your posts as looking for supportive reasons to hate Shimano. I dunno, at one point you directly asked the forum for legitimate arguments against the brand. My reading comprehension is shot. But I'm good at remembering numbers! 

When something works as expected at each price point, what's there to hate? Seriously, the small percentage who slammed Shimano ride Campy or SRAM, so you toss out their votes and end up with more like 2% who hate the brand for reasons that have nothing to do with performance or value.

As a 70's teenager forced to buy my own bike and parts with my paper route money, the ONLY true high-end game in town was Campy. Without the choices you have nowadays, Campy just sat on its laurels and did nothing to improve its components. Along comes Suntour and Shimano with innovative, better performing equipment at a fraction of Campy's price. I'm sorry, but who made the superior rear derailleur, indexed shifting, brake lever shifter set, dual pivot calipers, cassette hub, or cartridge bottom bracket? Sure as heck wasn't Campy. Who copied who? :aureola:


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## bicyclerepairman (Mar 12, 2003)

*This just in from Rip Van Winkle......*

My gripe has to do with (of course, back in the day, but I have a long memory for this sort of stuff):

1.) Comparing components at similar price points, the Suntour stuff always felt/worked better than Shimano components. The Suntour Vx shifted better than the Shimano 600. I thought the original version of the Suntour Cyclone GT was better than the Shimano Crane (Dura Ace). This became a moot point when Suntour's quality fell off the cliff. Which came as a shock....I thought with their market penetration & engineering prowess that they were too good to fail.

2.) Shimano would come out with innovations requiring mechanics to purchase numerous specialized tools that would only be useful for a few (and sometimes only 2) years, when they would come out with another set of innovations, that would require you to purchase different specialized tools..... I had the feeling that some of the 'innovations' foisted on the cycling public by Shimano came from the philosophy of "Change = more sales", without bothering to consider whether the change was worth the trouble or the cycling public's dollar. Suntour didn't subject dealers or mechanics to this merry-go-round. But, hey, I'm not bitter.

I realize that it's a different ballgame now, with different players & different technologies. But the philosophy of 'change = more sales' IMHO is what has saddled us with 11 cog freewheels (will we see 12 cogs next year?) and shifting mechanisms that have more in common with clock construction (delicate & unserviceable) than I would prefer.

In case you can't tell, Grant Petersen is my hero.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

fast ferd said:


> I honestly interpreted the flavor of your posts as looking for supportive reasons to hate Shimano. I dunno, at one point you directly asked the forum for legitimate arguments against the brand. My reading comprehension is shot. But I'm good at remembering numbers!
> 
> When something works as expected at each price point, what's there to hate? Seriously, the small percentage who slammed Shimano ride Campy or SRAM, so you toss out their votes and end up with more like 2% who hate the brand for reasons that have nothing to do with performance or value.
> 
> As a 70's teenager forced to buy my own bike and parts with my paper route money, the ONLY true high-end game in town was Campy. Without the choices you have nowadays, Campy just sat on its laurels and did nothing to improve its components. Along comes Suntour and Shimano with innovative, better performing equipment at a fraction of Campy's price. *I'm sorry, but who made the superior rear derailleur, indexed shifting, brake lever shifter set, dual pivot calipers, cassette hub, or cartridge bottom bracket? Sure as heck wasn't Campy. Who copied who?* :aureola:


Quick Release Skewer (most important invention of all) - Campagnolo. 
Indexed Shifting - Hercules Herailleur (1949)
Rear Derailleur (parallelogram) - SunTour Grand Prix
Dual Pivot brake calipers - Altenburger (1960s)
Cassette Hub - Shimano
Cartridge BB - probably Shimano
Brifters - Shimano

You seem to have anger issues concerning Campy due to your inability to purchase it during the 70s. This is, of course, known as "Sour Grapes"; where the Fox rationalized that since he couldn't reach the grapes, they were probably sour and not worth eating anyway.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Quick Release Skewer (most important invention of all) - Campagnolo.
> Indexed Shifting - Hercules Herailleur (1949)
> Rear Derailleur (parallelogram) - SunTour Grand Prix
> Dual Pivot brake calipers - Altenburger (1960s)
> ...


I wouldn't characterize it as anger, since I look back fondly on my 70's experience with Campy. (I still own my '71 Gitane Super Corsa!) In fact, I love all their components, old and new. I'll even admit to scorning and snubbing anything that came out from other mfrs way back then. 

I knew of Suntour's invention of the parallelogram rear D and subsequent relinquishing of rights to the design. But did not know that Shimano did not invent indexing or dual calipers. They sure capitalized on the design and made it appear it came from them.


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## DanTourino (Oct 29, 2007)

*Ohh how I hhate it...*

Many bad experiences, Hate the shifter shapes on the 7800, hate the shifter cable routing, hate that I couldn't down-shift without braking while sprinting out of the saddle, hate that I just gave them another shot and bought a 6700 group for my crit/rain bike and now have to pay to upgrade to campy... again. nuff said.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

fast ferd said:


> I wouldn't characterize it as anger, since I look back fondly on my 70's experience with Campy. (I still own my '71 Gitane Super Corsa!) In fact, I love all their components, old and new. I'll even admit to scorning and snubbing anything that came out from other mfrs way back then.
> 
> I knew of Suntour's invention of the parallelogram rear D and subsequent relinquishing of rights to the design. But did not know that Shimano did not invent indexing or dual calipers.* They sure capitalized on the design and made it appear it came from them.*


Kinda like V-brakes.
I have Control Tech "Long Arm" brakes that pre-date Shimano V-brakes. Marinovative (Cheap Tricks) were the first commecially available linear pull brakes. Shimano just took it and added a parallelogram linkage to it (...that caused them to squeal horribly once the bushings wore out in about 4 months), called them V-Brakes, and claimed it as their own invention.

I don't hate Shimano...I just don't think they're quite as great as a lot of people do.


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## mattpeyton (Mar 13, 2011)

*I do, in fact, hate them*

I just trashed my 3rd set of 9 speed Shimano shifters in 5 years. These were Dura Ace 7700s, bought NOS in June, and they failed in 312 miles. I guess they weren't so NOS as I thought. Still, they look BRAND NEW, cost me $300, and Shimano says, as usual, that they cannot be repaired. So - I had to downgrade to bar end shifters for the fall. I've spent my last Shimano dollar. They are really, truly, the only company I can think of that completely abandons 3.1 year old equipment and tells you that your $500 shifters are not repairable. Can you name another company that awful? $500 is alot of money these days.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

il sogno said:


> My feeling is more like "meh."


^This.


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## tjanson (Nov 11, 2006)

Reasons I have a Shimano aversion:

1. 9 speed road shifters were painful for my hands. That will never leave me after riding them for years!
2. Ugly! shifters are bulky! the current cranks are horrendous! (except for 8-speed XTR, that is beautiful)
3. SRAM mountain components work much better IMO
4. Can't take things apart to clean 'em. Like shifters. They don't usually need it, but sometimes they do.

That said, I love the finish on Dura-ace stuff, beautiful. I like the hubs, which unlike everything else they sell, are easily rebuildable. I pretty much use Shimano skewers exclusively 'cause nothing works better.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

This is the stupidest post I've ever seen. Shimano haters? Come on. SRAM haters, specialized haters, fat tire haters, get real! Who gives a sh*t what others think? There's someone out there to hate anything and everything. The internet is a way for these worms to crawl out of their holes and boldly say they hate what YOU use without having to look you in the face. Don't you just HATE that?!?!


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

Special Eyes said:


> This is the stupidest post I've ever seen. Shimano haters? Come on. SRAM haters, specialized haters, fat tire haters, get real! Who gives a sh*t what others think? There's someone out there to hate anything and everything. The internet is a way for these worms to crawl out of their holes and boldly say they hate what YOU use without having to look you in the face. Don't you just HATE that?!?!



See even you got to hate on the post! :mad2:


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

how can you people hate on bits of metal and plastic ?


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## WaynefromOrlando (Mar 3, 2010)

I have never used anything but Shimano so perhaps my opinion is not too objective. Still, I have never, ever, had a problem with Shimamo components that I did not cause myself. I put many thousands of miles on my Shimano 600 gear back when a road bike was still called a 10 speed, and I have been riding on Ultegra gear for 2 years now with zero problems except ones I causes like shifting under load a la Andy Schleck. Which is not bad as Andy was riding on SRAM gear and had already crested his mountain while I was on slope when I had my problem.

My off road bike is equiped with Diore, and is still working like a champ despite a pretty bad wreck (endo over the handlebars onto pavement), that bent the left gearshift assembly a bit. Still shift just right, and is remarkably quiet when properly aligned, i.e. not cross chained. 

With that, I do intend to buy a nice Italian ride when I reach a sufficient income level that will support such a purpose. That fine piece of Italian workmanship will never see anything except Campagnola and otherwise authorized classical parts and accessories. Somethings are about style as much as performance, something that even a normally miserly person like I understand.


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## Kevy Metal (Sep 30, 2008)

"Hate" is a strong word. Think about what it means. One can be disappointed with Shimano, or regretful, or frustrated, but hate? I will say this, I've always thought their shifter/levers look like video game joy sticks. Freakin' huge. Woefully lacking in design. :wink:


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## SilverStar07 (May 18, 2011)

I haven't used Shimano road components but I really don't like the Mountain stuff other than their Cranks. My Mt. bikes in the past have all had Shimano stuff and it seemed like I could get 2-3 good rides and then have the Derailleurs adjusted again, I just figured that was the norm. Then I got my Iron Horse in 2006 with SRAM I saw the light. My Iron Horse has harder miles than any of my other bikes and since the initial set up I have never had to touch them since. It just always seems to work no matter what is caked on it. My 29'er that I got last year came equipped with the newer Shimano stuff I figured I would give it a try. Well I still can't get it to work right, I have had it in the shop multipal times and they can get it close. I spent some time on it myself got it working pretty good until the last time I was on the trainer with it and the rear started missing shifts. So when I got my road bike this year I looked for models with SRAM. I do how ever think they make some of the best Crank sets and Bottom Brackets.

SS-


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## djg714 (Oct 24, 2005)

This is like 5th grade. Pretty silly thread.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

djg714 said:


> This is like 5th grade. Pretty silly thread.


And you are then contributing to further degrade the mental capacity of this thread or elevate it? Please enlighten us...


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

I just wish Zeus and Huret were still around


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I like Shimano. I also like Campagnolo.

I've been on Sram Force for a few months and have never liked it. The throw is too far for me when I'm in need of an easier gear and getting tired.

Plus, the pawls just stopped engaging so my right shifter is dead. This really makes me not like Sram. Could replace just the right or I might go with the new 5700 Shimano 105 shifters and ditch Sram.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

I have 6 bikes:

1) All 6603 Ultegra
2) All M760 XT
3) Mix of DA 7800 and Ult 6600
4) DA Track Cog
5) Mix of XT/SLX
6) SRAMANO Rival and Ultegra 6700

On my new bike I wanted Chorus Eleventy or Record 10. After seeing the USED prices on ebay, I ran far far away.


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

*Shimano Schimano*

This reminds me of the Nikon/Canon debate over in photog forum land. Pointless, addictive for some, but generally just silly tribal allegiances that everything to do with what particular gruppo someone happens to own at the time.

That said, Campy rocks!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Shimano well engineered? If they were well engineered they would be made so when a small part breaks you simply replace the cheap small part not the whole damn component. I think Campy still makes theirs with replaceable small parts. Amazing, truly amazing.


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## maxxevv (Jan 18, 2009)

froze said:


> Shimano well engineered? If they were well engineered they would be made so when a small part breaks you simply replace the cheap small part not the whole damn component. I think Campy still makes theirs with replaceable small parts. Amazing, truly amazing.


Have you checked how much the replacement parts cost ???


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## cyclust (Sep 8, 2004)

While I'm a buy American kind of guy [ I am of Italian ancestry, so I do prefer Campy groups, naturally ], I don't hate Shimano, in fact I must give them credit for many of the best innovations in cycling componets. Indexed shifting, STI levers, dual pivot brakes, and many other items can be credited to Shimano. Many of Campy's outstanding parts are actually a result of them playing catch-up with shimano.


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## petalpower (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm happy with the 105 on my 2010 Tarmac, but I've never ridden anything else. I've been considering changing it out to SRAM Red - mostly because I like the hoods better, and the weight savings would be icing on the cake.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

nayr497 said:


> I like Shimano. I also like Campagnolo.
> 
> I've been on Sram Force for a few months and have never liked it. The throw is too far for me when I'm in need of an easier gear and getting tired.
> 
> Plus, the pawls just stopped engaging so my right shifter is dead. This really makes me not like Sram. Could replace just the right or I might go with the new 5700 Shimano 105 shifters and ditch Sram.


Or you could warranty that right shifter and be right back on the road in a week.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cyclust said:


> While I'm a buy American kind of guy [ I am of Italian ancestry, so I do prefer Campy groups, naturally ], I don't hate Shimano, in fact I must give them credit for many of the best innovations in cycling componets. Indexed shifting, STI levers, dual pivot brakes, and many other items can be credited to Shimano. Many of Campy's outstanding parts are actually a result of them playing catch-up with shimano.


Since you obviously missed it above, I'll repost this for you. Shimano rarely "invents" something useful; they take an old design, make it shiny, and claim it as their own.



> Quick Release Skewer (most important invention of all) - Campagnolo.
> Indexed Shifting - Hercules Herailleur (1949)
> Rear Derailleur (parallelogram) - SunTour Grand Prix
> Dual Pivot brake calipers - Altenburger (1960s)
> ...


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Since you obviously missed it above, I'll repost this for you. Shimano rarely "invents" something useful; they take an old design, make it shiny, and claim it as their own.


You just posted 3 usefuls, and a couple other items that Shimano both got to work right and popularized for the first time. And that's ignoring a few of other things, like 2 piece cranks, cassette lockrings, lever return springs, the servo pantagraph (still used on all Campy, Shimano, Microshift and last gen. Suntour deraileurs), HG shaped/relieved cogs, lifter chainrings, V brakes, MTB clipless pedals and linear SIS housing.

I suppose none of that counts, either.


BTW, Swan got the first patent for a light bulb. But we say Edison invented it because he got it right and made it commercially viable.

I'm fairly critical of Shimano, but making it sound like they've never come up with anything is ridiculous. It's a hugely innovative company who's designs touch all aspects of modern road and MTB design. So innovative, in fact, that they have completely dominated component sales for 25 years, leading some people to hate them.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

maxxevv said:


> Have you checked how much the replacement parts cost ???


Gee have you checked the prices to replace a Dura Ace STI briftor? $400 to $600...I have a sneaking feeling a replace part for a Campy briftor would be a lot less then that, what do you think? In fact if you break the shift lever in a Campy Record the cost is $61 for the part, you can't replace the Shimano one.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> Gee have you checked the prices to replace a Dura Ace STI briftor? $400 to $600...I have a sneaking feeling a replace part for a Campy briftor would be a lot less then that, what do you think? In fact if you break the shift lever in a Campy Record the cost is $61 for the part, you can't replace the Shimano one.


Or if you break the little spring, I sell them for $5.

$5 < $500


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> Or if you break the little spring, I sell them for $5.
> 
> $5 < $500


There's a comparison for you, way better then mine!


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## Fixt00l (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, I do hate them for their price tag.The Dura Ace is far below Campagnolo Chorus, and even more expensive...A big W T F here.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

zipptrek said:


> I hate it when my shifter breaks, I take it apart and find all it needs is a small spring to fix. Then they won't sell me one and I have to buy a whole new shifter.
> That made up my mind real quick.
> Campy all the way. I just rebuilt my Record shifter and the rear derailleur after about 7 yrs and 20,000 miles. It shifts like new again. Why buy disposable components, bad for the environment, LOL


Are you serious? My neighbor had that problem with his Ultegra 6500 bike two years ago. We got the part number for the spring and he ordered it. Three days later, he received it. The shifter works fine now.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

This is funny!!! The Shimano haters rave about SRAM but fail to realize that SRAM is made in Asia too. Kinda reminds me of the Cannondaledale "Handmade In US" label. The CAADs were made here but I know for certain that the CAAD9s and the old CAAD 8s and 7s were welded here but the tubing was made in Taiwan. At least, with Cannondale, some of the labor in building it was done here. The only labor done here for SRAM is marketing, distribution and sales. At least Zipp wheels are made here so I have to give SRAM that.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Hank Stamper said:


> They are Japanese and make fishing gear. Off course I hate them. I'm not about to open my Gucci wallet for no Asian crap. yeah I hear it works and is a good value but at the expence of my image? No way.


I guess you don't run SRAM on your bike either. Being that Gucci nor Campy is even remotely American, I'm thinking you are European? Regardless, It is a racist statement. You may not look at it as such but it is. It's just a foolish statement if you're from the US and you said that.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

bikefixer said:


> did you mean expense? :d
> just checking
> 
> i don't understand the shimano hate. It's as if people hate them because they are a big company. Well how do you think they got big in the first place? By making quality products at a reasonable price.
> ...


+1.....


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

I have 7 ,8 ,9 and 10 speed Shimano on my bikes and guess what ..... it works fine


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I don't hate Shimano because their big, what a load of carp...yes I said carp. Read my earlier post why I wouldn't by their components. And speaking of carp, though I don't fish for carp, I love their fishing reels, I have two of their spinning reels and they are silky smooth and last a long time. So I will continue to buy their fishing reels when needed but not their bicycle components.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

terbennett said:


> This is funny!!! *The Shimano haters rave about SRAM but fail to realize that SRAM is made in Asia too.* Kinda reminds me of the Cannondaledale "Handmade In US" label. The CAADs were made here but I know for certain that the CAAD9s and the old CAAD 8s and 7s were welded here but the tubing was made in Taiwan. At least, with Cannondale, some of the labor in building it was done here. The only labor done here for SRAM is marketing, distribution and sales. At least Zipp wheels are made here so I have to give SRAM that.


I'm pretty sure that almost everyone knows that SRAM is made in Asia. The company is in the US though, so at least some of the money stays here.

You forgot design. A lot of the design is done here as well. I've been to SRAM HQ. It's a pretty big place with several employees - not just marketers and inside sales guys.


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## Optimus (Jun 18, 2010)

Wow!!! I've had a lot of Shimano, and it's worked well, as for Sram I can't say the same, however, I don't go around and bash them. I like Shimano, quite a bit actually, and I like Sram too!!


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

I dont like their ergonomics, but the feel of the actual shifting is very nice, smooth precise second to none in my opinion.

Having said that i just switched two of my bikes to Campy and love the double dump and ergonomics... everything else ...meh. The UT BB and cranks are a joke.

I am having some issues with my Campy stuff so I went to the highest end shop in the area which sells exclusively super expensive european bikes. I figured if anyone could help me with my Campy stuff they could. I walked in and they only had like 2 bikes with Campy and maybe 2 with Sram everything else was Shimano. This speaks volumes, Shimano makes a great RELIABLE product.

I dont like the way it looks and it does have a bit of a Fred-ish brand image in my opinion.


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## Squeaky950 (Sep 21, 2011)

I personally will only ever consider shimano when it comes to components if only because of the ready supply of the small spares such as cables: I can go to LBS rather than having to order stuff in as those people I ride with who have Campag are forced to do. That is the pragmatist in me talking, though... If I managed to marry an Italian supermodel and lived in Tuscany I would break out my "Gucci wallet" and have myself an Italian superbike with full Campy purely because they are 500x sexier than Shimano. However until then I'm happy to stick with Shimano: I press the levers and the gears change. What more could you possibly want?


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Let's face it, the quality / price of Shimano is really bad. I like campagnolo's style and history, but they're really, REALLY overpriced. My vote goes to sram all the way.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Squeaky950 said:


> I personally will only ever consider shimano when it comes to components if only because of the ready supply of the small spares such as cables: I can go to LBS rather than having to order stuff in as those people I ride with who have Campag are forced to do.


What? You can't go to your LBS and get cables for Campy? you have a very poor LBS, even my LBS's in Fort Wayne, IN. all have small parts in stock for Campy and this town does not have very good LBS's from what I'm use to in California. What nonsense.


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## Squeaky950 (Sep 21, 2011)

froze said:


> What? You can't go to your LBS and get cables for Campy? you have a very poor LBS, even my LBS's in Fort Wayne, IN. all have small parts in stock for Campy and this town does not have very good LBS's from what I'm use to in California. What nonsense.


Well, here in the UK maybe Campy just isn't as common as in the US. I confess I don't really know about the "distribution" across brands in the US but in my (possibly limited) experience over here SRAM and Campy are a rare sight in comparison to Shimano. Maybe it's different for you though.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Squeaky950 said:


> Well, here in the UK maybe Campy just isn't as common as in the US. I confess I don't really know about the "distribution" across brands in the US but in my (possibly limited) experience over here SRAM and Campy are a rare sight in comparison to Shimano. Maybe it's different for you though.


We carry Campy compatible cables from Jagwire. They aren't hard to get, but the shop has to bother to carry them for their customers.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Squeaky950 said:


> Well, here in the UK maybe Campy just isn't as common as in the US. I confess I don't really know about the "distribution" across brands in the US but in my (possibly limited) experience over here SRAM and Campy are a rare sight in comparison to Shimano. Maybe it's different for you though.


Really? In the UK? Funny, I went to the UK and bought a Mercian at their location in Derby, and they had nothing but Campy components, and was such a huge supplier of it their in that area I got the components cheaper then if I had purchased here in America! I realize I didn't walk into any other LBS in the UK to check their supply of Campy parts, but I know that in 2007 Derby had a lot of Campy components and parts.

Granted, most people here in America ride Shimano too, then probably Campy then SRAM last. So we have the same problem you do in that Shimano is the big one, but I still go to my local LBS here in a seasonally biking community, meaning a smaller bike market due to weather of Fort Wayne Indiana and get any part I want for Campy. Probably if I went to a smaller town here in Indiana and walked into an LBS they may not have parts for Campy, but it's only a matter of ordering the part(s) and in 1 to 4 days the parts would be there.

There are odd things that until recently no LBS here in Fort Wayne carried, like tubular tires, the biggest LBS now carries them (a small selection) but they didn't for about 5 years when I first moved here. I think a lot of it has to do with the area market, if people aren't much into road bikes and or the season limits their use you may have problems getting some parts, but that could be true with higher end Shimano components because the market doesn't justify the LBS to stock the parts.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I think Shimano has always made good stuff.
However with their most recents groups the price has gone out of bounds for me.
Also their shift levers cannot be repaired and once they break you have to throw them away.
I have switched to Campy Centaur shifters on all my bikes over past few years.
Much cheaper, lighter, repairable and I like the shifting and ergonomics better,


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Kontact said:


> lever return springs
> 
> So innovative, in fact, that they have completely dominated component sales for 25 years, leading some people to hate them.


Sorry, the return spring was Dia Compe.

And Shimano's domination of component sales was more a matter of geography. OEM sales are the lion's share of the market and Shimano dominated that for years as bicycle production moved first to Japan and then to Taiwan/China. Campy basically abandoned OEM sales outside of Europe because they didn't want to move production to Asia (although they built a huge facility in Romania to cut costs.) Until recently, the only components one saw on production bikes were Shimano. Sram (made in Taiwan) is making inroads.

Finally, despite Shimano's penchant for answering the question nobody asked (the "automatic shifting Coaster system") I will not fault quality. But I do have problems with their business practices. Selling to outfits like Performance at prices that allows them to sell, for example, an Ultegra cassette for basically what we have to pay our wholesale distributors.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> Really? In the UK? Funny, I went to the UK and bought a Mercian at their location in Derby, and they had nothing but Campy components, and was such a huge supplier of it their in that area I got the components cheaper then if I had purchased here in America! I realize I didn't walk into any other LBS in the UK to check their supply of Campy parts, but I know that in 2007 Derby had a lot of Campy components and parts.
> 
> Granted, most people here in America ride Shimano too, then probably Campy then SRAM last. So we have the same problem you do in that Shimano is the big one, but I still go to my local LBS here in a seasonally biking community, meaning a smaller bike market due to weather of Fort Wayne Indiana and get any part I want for Campy. Probably if I went to a smaller town here in Indiana and walked into an LBS they may not have parts for Campy, but it's only a matter of ordering the part(s) and in 1 to 4 days the parts would be there.
> 
> There are odd things that until recently no LBS here in Fort Wayne carried, like tubular tires, the biggest LBS now carries them (a small selection) but they didn't for about 5 years when I first moved here. I think a lot of it has to do with the area market, if people aren't much into road bikes and or the season limits their use you may have problems getting some parts, but that could be true with higher end Shimano components because the market doesn't justify the LBS to stock the parts.


You really think SRAM is behind Campy in the US? They may very well pass Shimano soon. I had already formed an opinion about you from your previous posts but that statement really cements it...


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

moskowe said:


> Let's face it, the quality / price of Shimano is really bad. I like campagnolo's style and history, but they're really, REALLY overpriced. My vote goes to sram all the way.


Is your definition of overpriced that which you cannot afford?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> Really? In the UK? Funny, I went to the UK and bought a Mercian at their location in Derby, and they had nothing but Campy components, and was such a huge supplier of it their in that area I got the components cheaper then if I had purchased here in America! I realize I didn't walk into any other LBS in the UK to check their supply of Campy parts, but I know that in 2007 Derby had a lot of Campy components and parts.
> 
> Granted, most people here in America ride Shimano too, then probably Campy then SRAM last. So we have the same problem you do in that Shimano is the big one, but I still go to my local LBS here in a seasonally biking community, meaning a smaller bike market due to weather of Fort Wayne Indiana and get any part I want for Campy. Probably if I went to a smaller town here in Indiana and walked into an LBS they may not have parts for Campy, but it's only a matter of ordering the part(s) and in 1 to 4 days the parts would be there.
> 
> *There are odd things that until recently no LBS here in Fort Wayne carried, like tubular tires, the biggest LBS now carries them (a small selection) but they didn't for about 5 years when I first moved here.* I think a lot of it has to do with the area market, if people aren't much into road bikes and or the season limits their use you may have problems getting some parts, but that could be true with higher end Shimano components because the market doesn't justify the LBS to stock the parts.


It could also be partly because they don't NEED to stock that stuff...my primary parts supplier is in Ft. Wayne (J&B Importers). A store in Ft. Wayne could drive over to the warehouse and get whatever they needed the same day. My inside rep at J&B works at one of the shops there, too.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Richard said:


> Sorry, the return spring was Dia Compe.
> 
> And Shimano's domination of component sales was more a matter of geography. OEM sales are the lion's share of the market and Shimano dominated that for years as bicycle production moved first to Japan and then to Taiwan/China. Campy basically abandoned OEM sales outside of Europe because they didn't want to move production to Asia (although they built a huge facility in Romania to cut costs.) Until recently, the only components one saw on production bikes were Shimano. Sram (made in Taiwan) is making inroads.
> 
> Finally, despite Shimano's penchant for answering the question nobody asked (the "automatic shifting Coaster system") I will not fault quality. But I do have problems with their business practices. Selling to outfits like Performance at prices that allows them to sell, for example, an Ultegra cassette for basically what we have to pay our wholesale distributors.


And the rest of my list?

I'm failing to understand how Shimano being in Japan put Suntour out of business, or how geography caused index shifting and a whole bunch of other innovations to become the standard for all brands.

Shimano created demand with its designs, and used sometimes crummy business moves to insure a market dominance for its in demand parts.

In the early '90s there were complete groups for road and moutain available from Shimano, Sachs, Mavic, Campagnolo and Suntour. Only Shimano makes both today, and Campy is the only one that both exists and makes any complete groups.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Kontact said:


> I'm failing to understand how Shimano being in Japan put Suntour out of business, or how geography caused index shifting and a whole bunch of other innovations to become the standard for all brands.
> 
> Shimano created demand with its designs, and used sometimes crummy business moves to insure a market dominance for its in demand parts.
> 
> In the early '90s there were complete groups for road and mountain available from Shimano, Sachs, Mavic, Campagnolo and Suntour. Only Shimano makes both today, and Campy is the only one that both exists and makes any complete groups.


Fair to say that Suntour put Suntour out of business--quality problems (as mentioned), stumbling on indexing, missed the mountainbike craze (that Shimano jumped on). 

They were also hurt by their typical Japanese approach--they did not provide a full group & relied on their partners, while Shimano did everything in house. Read Sunset for Suntour"

Suntour at one time owned the OEM market:
"In 1982, the year before mountain bikes became significant, SunTour equipped about 60% of the medium-priced bicycles, compared to Shimano's 30%."

--it is a sad story of corporate demise.


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## jarbiker (Sep 29, 2009)

*Have owned*



SystemShock said:


> See subject. Seems like in some recent threads comparing Shimano with other component makers, there's usually at least one person decrying the "Shimano hatred" that's "suddenly become hip" in the cycling world.
> 
> This poll is simply to gauge if that 'Shimano-hatred' really does exist (and if so, why?) or if that's just a bunch of hooey. :idea:
> 
> ...


a bike with shim 105 for 7 years or so. It works. What is to hate.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

That's an interesting read. Valentino Campagnolo should read it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> You really think SRAM is behind Campy in the US? They may very well pass Shimano soon. I had already formed an opinion about you from your previous posts but that statement really cements it...


Your opinion of me matters nothing to me.

But your wrong, so really your opinion of SRAM vs Campy is wrong. The estimated America total sales volume by SRAM is at 15%, while Shimano is 50%...I'll let you do the math...that is if you can do math. 

I know you won't believe my numbers so here's a web site to cement you in place: Tour de France 2011: Shimano, Campagnolo, SRAM components logos Scan down to SRAM and here is the excerpt dated 2011: 
"SRAM Corporation is a privately held bicycle component manufacturer based in Chicago, Illinois, founded in 1987. SRAM is an acronym comprising the names of its founders, Scott, Ray, and Sam. The company has estimated that it holds about 15 percent of the $3.5 billion bicycle components market." 

Now go play in the street.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

froze said:


> Your opinion of me matters nothing to me.
> 
> But your wrong, so really your opinion of SRAM vs Campy is wrong. The estimated America total sales volume by SRAM is at 15%, while Shimano is 50%...I'll let you do the math...that is if you can do math.
> 
> ...


I don't think that 15% accounts for all their other holdings: Rockshox, Zipp, etc etc.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Kontact said:


> And the rest of my list?
> 
> I'm failing to understand how Shimano being in Japan put Suntour out of business, or how geography caused index shifting and a whole bunch of other innovations to become the standard for all brands.
> 
> ...


Suntour put Suntour out of business.

And, pardon me, Sram makes "complete" MTB groups considering they "own" Avid, Rock Shock, Truvative, et al. Last I looked, Shimano doesn't make suspension forks either.

Finally, whether or not Shimano "innovated", the move of mass market cycling production to the Far East certainly put them in the catbird seat.

Like I said elsewhere, I don't knock their products, just their business practices. It took lawsuits to stop them from forcing bicycle makers to spec all Shimano or nothing.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Richard said:


> Like I said elsewhere, I don't knock their products, just their business practices. It took lawsuits to stop them from forcing bicycle makers to spec all Shimano or nothing.


Exactly. The question is "Do you hate Shimano?" not "Do you hate Shimano products?"

Shimano, as a company, sucks. They have price controls in the US for *almost* everyone. They under-price their components to get it on every damn bike made. All in the name of industry domination.

I'm glad to see that the companies that said they were going to be Shimano-Only at the insistence of Shimano have managed to keep a couple of SRAM bikes in their line-up. Hell, Diamondback even has a Campy SR11 road bike this year!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

robdamanii said:


> I don't think that 15% accounts for all their other holdings: Rockshox, Zipp, etc etc.


In regards to the reply to Scary's caustic slam of my earlier post. But we were talking road bike components not MTB shocks; and Rockshox has had large losses due to the decline in the MTB business. And if you really want to go that way don't forget Campy has a huge selection of other stuff they make besides road components.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> In regards to the reply to Scary's caustic slam of my earlier post. But we were talking road bike components not MTB shocks; and Rockshox has had large losses due to the decline in the MTB business. And if you really want to go that way don't forget *Campy has a huge selection of other stuff they make besides road components.*



Aye. Like this (which Tullio invented):










Campagnolo Big Corkscrew with Box, Satin Silver - CTBSA


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Richard said:


> Suntour put Suntour out of business.
> 
> And, pardon me, Sram makes "complete" MTB groups considering they "own" Avid, Rock Shock, Truvative, et al. Last I looked, Shimano doesn't make suspension forks either.
> 
> ...


SRAM didn't exist in the early '90s, so it wouldn't make any sense to mention them in my post about the businesses that survived the era. Did you think I wasn't aware that SRAM makes components?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> Your opinion of me matters nothing to me.
> 
> But your wrong, so really your opinion of SRAM vs Campy is wrong. The estimated America total sales volume by SRAM is at 15%, while Shimano is 50%...I'll let you do the math...that is if you can do math.
> 
> ...


SRAM's 2010 revenue is $524M, Shimano's 2003 revenue was nearly $1B, and Campy's 2000 revenue was $88M Euro-so who is bigger? It's doubtful Campy has grown 5 fold in ten years, most seem to believe the company's market share and revenue have actually declined. You see Froze, when SRAM quotes that they have 15% of the market-they are referring to all components and not simply drivetrain. A perspective MBA you certainly are not...


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> Is your definition of overpriced that which you cannot afford?


No, but don't you think a 300$ cassette is pushing it a little bit ? You're paying extra for campagnolo only because of the name and the looks, not the performance.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

BTW Froze, in 2000 the Euro was actually weaker than the US dollar by about 10%. If you can find later figures for Campy do share...


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

moskowe said:


> No, but don't you think a 300$ cassette is pushing it a little bit ? You're paying extra for campagnolo only because of the name and the looks, not the performance.


The fact that they are smaller plays a big role in that cost. It's not just all marketing and "look what we can charge" that drives pricing...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

moskowe said:


> No, but don't you think a 300$ cassette is pushing it a little bit ? You're paying extra for campagnolo only because of the name and the looks, not the performance.


No, you're paying extra because all Campy components are made in either Italy or Romania - not China or Taiwan. Labour in the EU costs more than labour in Asia.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Kontact said:


> SRAM didn't exist in the early '90s, so it wouldn't make any sense to mention them in my post about the businesses that survived the era. Did you think I wasn't aware that SRAM makes components?


Read your own post. "Only Shimano makes both TODAY!" If you meant of those manufacturers mentioned previously, you could have been more clear.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> SRAM's 2010 revenue is $524M, Shimano's 2003 revenue was nearly $1B, and Campy's 2000 revenue was $88M Euro-so who is bigger? It's doubtful Campy has grown 5 fold in ten years, most seem to believe the company's market share and revenue have actually declined. You see Froze, when SRAM quotes that they have 15% of the market-they are referring to all components and not simply drivetrain. A perspective MBA you certainly are not...



So SRAM itself estimated that it owns 15% of the bike component market place with Shimano owning 50%, thus Campy owns 35% of the rest, therefore Srams $524 mil you quoted is 15% and Campy's was 88m is 35%....those numbers don't add up there Mr, MBA. But thanks for playing.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> So SRAM itself estimated that it owns 15% of the bike component market place with Shimano owning 50%, thus Campy owns 35% of the rest, therefore Srams $524 mil you quoted is 15% and Campy's was 88m is 35%....those numbers don't add up there Mr, MBA. But thanks for playing.


They don't because they are attributable to different market share claims, you couldn't figure that out? That was my point, that taken at face value the figures don't add up. What you linked to was press releases from each company. You are really quite humorous, I'll bet you are the only person reading this thread that believes SRAM is smaller than Campy. Apparently you cannot put together the fact that SRAM competes in nearly every enthusiast market as evidence of their growth. Walk through any shop and look at what products most new bikes are spec'd with (hint: It's not Campy)...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Scary said:


> They don't because they are attributable to different market share claims, you couldn't figure that out? That was my point, that taken at face value the figures don't add up. What you linked to was press releases from each company. You are really quite humorous, I'll bet you are the only person reading this thread that believes SRAM is smaller than Campy. Apparently you cannot put together the fact that SRAM competes in nearly every enthusiast market as evidence of their growth. Walk through any shop and look at what products most new bikes are spec'd with (hint: It's not Campy)...


Scary, your scaring me. Just because SRAM had more teams sponsored teams doesn't make them financially bigger then Campy, if that were true then SRAM would be bigger then Shimano because SRAM has sponsored more teams then Shimano this year!

That's not to say that they may exceed Campy or maybe even at some point Shimano because SRAM is growing at a rate of just a tick over 31% so far this year. Campy is a difficult company to track profits because it's privately held and Valentino Campagnolo doesn't publicize the company's reports.

I don't care what you think, you can't report on 2011 because those reports are not out, so your just guessing about SRAM financials for 2011. But facts are facts, for 2010 SRAM itself has estimated that it holds about 15 percent of the $3.5 billion bicycle components market. I don't understand why you keep hammering on BS...probably because BS comes before MBS.

Whatever man, you can write the next post and hammer away at more BS, but I'm done wasting my time with this and you, so go ahead and hammer away at nothing if it makes you feel better.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

froze said:


> Scary, your scaring me. Just because SRAM had more teams sponsored teams doesn't make them financially bigger then Campy, if that were true then SRAM would be bigger then Shimano because SRAM has sponsored more teams then Shimano this year!
> 
> That's not to say that they may exceed Campy or maybe even at some point Shimano because SRAM is growing at a rate of just a tick over 31% so far this year. Campy is a difficult company to track profits because it's privately held and Valentino Campagnolo doesn't publicize the company's reports.
> 
> ...


Enthusiast market does not refer to race teams, it refers to consumers that purchase bicycle components. But if you gauge that companies go racing with an anticipated return on that investment, then SRAM does appear to be growing.

You still don't get that SRAM is referring to an overall market and not just drivetrain. Campy doesn't compete in the "whole" market. They don't do anything for the mtb crowd, and they don't make lower end components for the $300-400 bike crowd, nor do they make accessories like handlebars, etc. I listed the figures and you don't seem to understand them. So you resort to name calling-typical American argument tactic, I don't know so I'll just get louder and hope that scares my superior opponent. 

Ladies and Gentlemen-we have met the Cliff Claven of rbr and his name is Froze.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I am not brand specific when it comes to components. I choose what I feel to be the best price/performance when I happen to be buying. I make the decision based on that and how the product feels in actual use to me.
After that color and style come into play.
I don't really care what others use or what is popular at the moment.
I have Shimano on one of my road bikes, my main mountain bike, and Sram on one of my mountain bikes. I gotta say the new XT stuff on my mountain bike rocks, about the best I have ever used, but I haven't ridden XX from Sram either.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Richard said:


> Read your own post. "Only Shimano makes both TODAY!" If you meant of those manufacturers mentioned previously, you could have been more clear.


Um ... context? Let's quote the entire post for fairness.



Kontact said:


> And the rest of my list?
> 
> I'm failing to understand how Shimano being in Japan put Suntour out of business, or how geography caused index shifting and a whole bunch of other innovations to become the standard for all brands.
> 
> ...


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

The battle is humorous and will conntinue on forever. Shimano still reigns an dregardless of what anyone says, SRAM has surpassed Campy. Sure the marketshare percentage is based on them having a vested interest outside of just road bikes, but that is one of Campy's shortcomings. I call Campy the "Apple of the Bike Industry." When you're at a race, you don't see Campy as much as you used to. Even at bike shops, you rarely see Campy compared to SRAM. Most manufacturers don't deal with them. They may have history but face it, old guys generally ride Campy now. I like Campy but they need to get their head out of their butts. Shimano has destroyed them and SRAMs claim to fame is really that they are Shimano compatible. Pricewise, they are cheaper also and offer similar quality to Shimano. Not having a position in mountain biking is also hurting Campy. Tons of MTBers are roadies too. They go with what they know. If SRAM works for them on their mountain bike, then SRAM is what they will like ride on their road bikes. Same can be said for Shimano. Campy offers cosmetic gimmicks and it's finicky compared to the other two. SRAM has had their woes but they have come a long way since 2004. Shimano is the heaviest but it's reliability has made it what it is today. Manufacturers want to deal with as few warranty claims at a decent price. That's where Shimano comes in. Sure it is pedestrian looking but it's reliable. The aftermarket also seems to be in favor of Shimano and SRAM. Most LBSes don't carry wheels with Campy hubs. they usually have to order them. That's how low the demand is. The marketshare issue is really a non-issue. There's more to the cycling industry than just road bikes. With that said, SRAM beats Campy.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

terbennett said:


> The battle is humorous and will conntinue on forever. Shimano still reigns an dregardless of what anyone says, SRAM has surpassed Campy. Sure the marketshare percentage is based on them having a vested interest outside of just road bikes, but that is one of Campy's shortcomings. I call Campy the "Apple of the Bike Industry." When you're at a race, you don't see Campy as much as you used to. Even at bike shops, you rarely see Campy compared to SRAM. Most manufacturers don't deal with them. They may have history but face it, old guys generally ride Campy now. I like Campy but they need to get their head out of their butts. Shimano has destroyed them and SRAMs claim to fame is really that they are Shimano compatible. Pricewise, they are cheaper also and offer similar quality to Shimano. Not having a position in mountain biking is also hurting Campy. Tons of MTBers are roadies too. They go with what they know. If SRAM works for them on their mountain bike, then SRAM is what they will like ride on their road bikes. Same can be said for Shimano. Campy offers cosmetic gimmicks and it's finicky compared to the other two. SRAM has had their woes but they have come a long way since 2004. Shimano is the heaviest but it's reliability has made it what it is today. Manufacturers want to deal with as few warranty claims at a decent price. That's where Shimano comes in. Sure it is pedestrian looking but it's reliable. The aftermarket also seems to be in favor of Shimano and SRAM. Most LBSes don't carry wheels with Campy hubs. they usually have to order them. That's how low the demand is. The marketshare issue is really a non-issue. There's more to the cycling industry than just road bikes. With that said, SRAM beats Campy.


I think your post is interesting in that you could make the same arguments by just rearranging the names. For instance, Shimano has always seemed more gimmicky in that each group used completely different small parts, while Campy has greater compatibility. By the same thinking, Campy seems less "aesthetic" in that the groups only really differ in materials and resultant weight, while Shimano changes everything between groups. I have also found Shimano to have some relatively unreliable shifting since they softened all their RD springs.

The point being, most of peoples opinions about the various brands seems less grounded in any sort of factual differences, but just impressions.

I have never really cared for the way Shimano groups look, and have never owned a full Shimano bike. 

Campy is poorly represented in the US, and that probably has little to do with anything but business decisions by large bike companies. Like Shimano and SRAM, it is not perfect. But these are all good companies - it isn't like one is Honda and the other two are Fiats.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Shimano rocks, especially Dura ace


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## Optimus (Jun 18, 2010)

One word ................ NO!!!


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## red elvis (Sep 9, 2010)

*NOthing wrong with shimano.*

i had shimano 105 for seven months on my bike. there's nothing wrong with them but i'm glad that i made a switch to sram. i like them a lot better.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Kontact said:


> I think your post is interesting in that you could make the same arguments by just rearranging the names. For instance, Shimano has always seemed more gimmicky in that each group used completely different small parts, while Campy has greater compatibility. By the same thinking, Campy seems less "aesthetic" in that the groups only really differ in materials and resultant weight, while Shimano changes everything between groups. I have also found Shimano to have some relatively unreliable shifting since they softened all their RD springs.
> 
> The point being, most of peoples opinions about the various brands seems less grounded in any sort of factual differences, but just impressions.
> 
> ...


They are great companies, but what I was trying to say is that SRAM and Shimano should be at the top since much of what they have is interchageable- especially in the aftermarket part of the equation. Wheels tend to be Shimano/SRAM compatible whereas Campy stuff tends to be Campy only. Shimano people might buy a few SRAM parts and vice versa. Campy owners usually won't do that- not to mention their stuff is generally interchangeable only within the Campy line. IMO, Campy looks the best and Shimano looks the least attractive. However, Campy's quality did decline years ago and their reputation still hasn't recovered from that here in the States. Shimano's reliability, lower cost, and heavy marketing back then helped them lock into the position that they are in now. 
SRAM and Shimano are made in Taiwan so parts cost less and they are within a 5-10 mile radius of most of the factories. This keeps costs down tremendously. You're right, there is a lot of observation but there is a lot of truth in it also. Campy is expensive no matter how you look at it. Shiamno's prices are starting to get up there too (for no legitimate reason). Maybe manufacturers will see this and give Campy a try. Judging from how many seem to be slowly switching over to SRAM, Shimano and Campy may need to lower their prices to compete in the future. Just an observation, but look at how many companies offer SRAM now. Many models that were Shimano only are now either offered with SRAM or they are only offered in SRAM. BTW, I'm a Shimano guy but SRAM could be a threat to Shimano in terms of marketshare the next 5 years. It's less expensive, more stylish and lighter.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

terbennett said:


> They are great companies, but what I was trying to say is that SRAM and Shimano should be at the top since much of what they have is interchageable- especially in the aftermarket part of the equation. Wheels tend to be Shimano/SRAM compatible whereas Campy stuff tends to be Campy only. Shimano people might buy a few SRAM parts and vice versa. Campy owners usually won't do that- not to mention their stuff is generally interchangeable only within the Campy line. IMO, Campy looks the best and Shimano looks the least attractive. However, Campy's quality did decline years ago and their reputation still hasn't recovered from that here in the States. Shimano's reliability, lower cost, and heavy marketing back then helped them lock into the position that they are in now.
> SRAM and Shimano are made in Taiwan so parts cost less and they are within a 5-10 mile radius of most of the factories. This keeps costs down tremendously. You're right, there is a lot of observation but there is a lot of truth in it also. Campy is expensive no matter how you look at it. Shiamno's prices are starting to get up there too (for no legitimate reason). Maybe manufacturers will see this and give Campy a try. Judging from how many seem to be slowly switching over to SRAM, Shimano and Campy may need to lower their prices to compete in the future. Just an observation, but look at how many companies offer SRAM now. Many models that were Shimano only are now either offered with SRAM or they are only offered in SRAM. BTW, I'm a Shimano guy but SRAM could be a threat to Shimano in terms of marketshare the next 5 years. It's less expensive, more stylish and lighter.


Have you priced mail order Centaur, Athena or Veloce lately? They really don't strike me as expensive, unless you are trying to match group to group between brands.

The various brands are all compatible in some ways (same frame standards, brakes) and completely different in shifting compatibility. But you seem to be referring to cassette compatibility. Have you noticed how many big companies, like DT and Mavic, now make their hubs so they accept Campy and Shimano freehub bodies?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

terbennett said:


> They are great companies, but what I was trying to say is that SRAM and Shimano should be at the top since much of what they have is interchageable- especially in the aftermarket part of the equation. Wheels tend to be Shimano/SRAM compatible whereas Campy stuff tends to be Campy only. Shimano people might buy a few SRAM parts and vice versa. Campy owners usually won't do that- not to mention their stuff is generally interchangeable only within the Campy line. IMO, Campy looks the best and Shimano looks the least attractive. However, Campy's quality did decline years ago and their reputation still hasn't recovered from that here in the States. Shimano's reliability, lower cost, and heavy marketing back then helped them lock into the position that they are in now.
> SRAM and Shimano are made in Taiwan so parts cost less and they are within a 5-10 mile radius of most of the factories. This keeps costs down tremendously. You're right, there is a lot of observation but there is a lot of truth in it also. Campy is expensive no matter how you look at it. Shiamno's prices are starting to get up there too (for no legitimate reason). Maybe manufacturers will see this and give Campy a try. Judging from how many seem to be slowly switching over to SRAM, Shimano and Campy may need to lower their prices to compete in the future. Just an observation, but look at how many companies offer SRAM now. Many models that were Shimano only are now either offered with SRAM or they are only offered in SRAM. BTW, I'm a Shimano guy but SRAM could be a threat to Shimano in terms of marketshare the next 5 years. It's less expensive, more stylish and lighter.


Shimano manufacturers higher end product in Japan and wheels in Malaysia. Also, what makes you think Shimano is too expensive? Because it is more than SRAM? Maybe it has more moving parts, and more complex manufacturing techniques (SRAM does not replicate the Shimano Dura Ace cold forged hollow crankset) nor does SRAM shift as well as Shimano. I don't even like Shimano but the level of materials, quality, and shifting precision of Shimano/Campy when compared to SRAM is readily apparent. I love the Wal-Mart mentality... Cheap, cheaper, cheapest.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I didn't know you had to plug Fujis in.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

These arguments make me laugh! I am a Campy guy and prefer them. I like SRAM on my MTB.

But lets face facts. Shimano is #1 in market share because they are the largest OEM provider and offered OEMs the best pricing. Campy did not want that market and left. Same with the MTB side.

SRAM produces some good stuff on the road and the BEST off-raod IMO and is going after Shimano. Good luck, but you will never catch them. Overall I think Shimano beats SRAM on quality and Campy beats them all.

If Campagnolo had the desire and money to go after the OEM Market, they would pass SRAM without a doubt..

But like it or not, Shimano rules and they kinda deserve it.


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## Tytelynes (Jan 31, 2007)

SystemShock said:


> "Shimano hatred" that's "suddenly become hip" in the cycling world.


Suddenly?


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## The_real_maverick (Sep 25, 2011)

I restore old bikes and I love shimano compared to most of what I deal with. Older falcon and suntour and a few others with no name brands can really have some issues and are not easy to work with. So, I guess I like Shimano


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## ben1223 (Aug 22, 2010)

Had 5600 series 105 on my first decent road bike - 6 years and about 60,000km and it's still going faultlessly (it's now on my training bike). Tried out 11 speed Campag before buying new bike. Loved the feel of the hoods, just couldn't get used to the thumb changer; though that's only personal preference.
The noisy bikes in my local club racing scene are generally equipped with something other than Shimano. The bottom line with Shimano: you click - it shifts.


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

The first three teams in the Tour de France rode on SRAM Reds. The 4th team rode Campy, 5th Shimano. The first three individuals were on SRAM Reds, as well. But those electronic shifters are a different beast altogether, so I'm not sure these stats are very good real-world comparisons. When I looked at the equipment of all the teams in the Tour, surprisingly, it was about evenly distributed among SRAM, Campy, and Shimano, with SRAM perhaps edging out by a bit... but not much.

For me, riding an Italian bike (Bianchi 928sl) makes me feel like riding anything but Campy is sacrilege. The one benefit to the thumbs, and this is a real benefit, is that you can shift (either up or down, depending on the derailleur) while in the drops. You can't do that with either Shimano or SRAM--or at least not easily. And at the end of the day, isn't it more true that the cleaner you keep your drivetrain, the smoother it will shift, no matter what company you're using? Seems to have worked for me.

But we're all tribal in the end, and we'll fight for (even die for?) the tribe we're in. I've yet to hear anyone on this forum prefer a brand that they're not actually using. So, go figure... the people who don't ride Shimano... surprise, surprise... HATE Shimano (and vice-versa). Oh well, it appears to be cathartic for some folks to help justify their choices.

As far as I'm concerned, they're all good (or the folks in the peloton wouldn't be using them). I just prefer Campy b/c I'm on an Italian bike, and I like the option of shifting in the drops. Plain and simple.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

malibru said:


> The one benefit to the thumbs, and this is a real benefit, is that you can shift (either up or down, depending on the derailleur) while in the drops


With Di2 you can switch while on the tops, on the hoods, or on the drops. Just get the extra switches and put them where you will use them.



> As far as I'm concerned, they're all good


Agreed. If any group was really as bad as some of the haters say, nobody would buy it. I'm sure most people who have Super Record, Red or Dura Ace have tried other groups and are making a rational choice. 
I can't see "hating" a component group. If I don't like something then I won't buy it. But if someone else has fun with it, good for them. 
It'd be a sad world if there was only one component manufacturer.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> It'd be a sad world if there was only one component manufacturer.


That would be sad, for long time there were only two which was equally sad, but now there's Sram and a new comer Microshift is slowly coming into the market place but they still don't make hubs or cranks. I saw a rather mid-high end bike with the Arsis derailleur package on it which helped keep the cost of a higher end frame low enough for the average person to afford. SuperiorLite Bikes - SL Race - Cat 1 - Arsis Carbon


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

malibru said:


> The first three teams in the Tour de France rode on SRAM Reds. The 4th team rode Campy, 5th Shimano. The first three individuals were on SRAM Reds, as well. But those electronic shifters are a different beast altogether, so I'm not sure these stats are very good real-world comparisons. When I looked at the equipment of all the teams in the Tour, surprisingly, it was about evenly distributed among SRAM, Campy, and Shimano, with SRAM perhaps edging out by a bit... but not much.
> 
> For me, riding an Italian bike (Bianchi 928sl) makes me feel like riding anything but Campy is sacrilege. The one benefit to the thumbs, and this is a real benefit, is that you can shift (either up or down, depending on the derailleur) while in the drops. You can't do that with either Shimano or SRAM--or at least not easily. And at the end of the day, isn't it more true that the cleaner you keep your drivetrain, the smoother it will shift, no matter what company you're using? Seems to have worked for me.
> 
> ...


I have to say, I would bet that the components they were running on their bikes had no real impact on their performance. I'd bet that if you switched them all to a different gruppo 6 months before the race, the results would have been the same. The components don't affect performance much if it at all.

Plus, those guys aren't necessarily riding what they like, they're riding what they were paid to ride.

I've had bikes with 105, Ultegra (6500?), DuraAce 7800 and 7900, and the new bike I just built has SR11 and while I really like it, I really liked my Dura Ace as well. I actually liked 7800 better than 7900, but both are excellent.

I think Campy looks better, and I do like the fact the thumb shifters exist, and allow you to jump 5 cogs at once. Going 3 cogs the other way is really nice as well.


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## sp3000 (Jul 10, 2007)

Cyclin Dan said:


> I actually liked 7800 better than 7900, but both are excellent.


I'm interested? can you elaborate please?


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

sp3000 said:


> I'm interested? can you elaborate please?


Sure. The 7800 could shift down (larger cogs) 3 cogs in one swipe, while the 7900 can only do two (I have no idea why).

I also liked the feel of the hoods and brake levers better on the 7800 too.

Both shifted equally great, but those couple of little things were things I really enjoyed about the 7800. I actually took a 7900 gruppo off a bike, sold it, and bought 7800 for those two reasons.

All that said, the new bike has Super Record 11 and I do like that better than 7800 or 7900. It really all comes down to ergonomics. The hoods are shaped wonderfully, the thumb shifters are nice, and like I said...moving up to 5 cogs in one "push" is incredibly nice.


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## sp3000 (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks Dan, I'm really happy with my 7800, I've never loved the Campy thumb shifter but I did get used to it when riding a record 10 bike I had as a loaner. I'm waiting on Dura-Ace 8000!


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

malibru said:


> The first three teams in the Tour de France rode on SRAM Reds. The 4th team rode Campy, 5th Shimano. The first three individuals were on SRAM Reds, as well. But those electronic shifters are a different beast altogether, so I'm not sure these stats are very good real-world comparisons. When I looked at the equipment of all the teams in the Tour, surprisingly, it was about evenly distributed among SRAM, Campy, and Shimano, with SRAM perhaps edging out by a bit... but not much.
> 
> For me, riding an Italian bike (Bianchi 928sl) makes me feel like riding anything but Campy is sacrilege. The one benefit to the thumbs, and this is a real benefit, is that you can shift (either up or down, depending on the derailleur) while in the drops. You can't do that with either Shimano or SRAM--or at least not easily. And at the end of the day, isn't it more true that the cleaner you keep your drivetrain, the smoother it will shift, no matter what company you're using? Seems to have worked for me.
> 
> ...


What Tour are you referring to, Cadel Evans won on Di2 in 2011 and Cavendish took green on Di2? Neither uses SRAM Red. Not to mention Cav seems perfectly capable of shifting from the drops in a frenzied sprint with Shimano (even prior to the remote shifter buttons offered with Di2). Your Italian branded bike was made in Taiwan or China, so it's manufacturing heritage is closer to Shimano (Japan/Malaysia) or SRAM (Taiwan/China) than Campagnolo (Italy/Romania). But your logic is interesting if not amusing...


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## Hughsdad (Jan 21, 2011)

malibru said:


> The one benefit to the thumbs, and this is a real benefit, is that you can shift (either up or down, depending on the derailleur) while in the drops. You can't do that with either Shimano or SRAM--or at least not easily.


I have no problem at all shifting my Rival from the drops. It's very easy.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

malibru said:


> But we're all tribal in the end, and we'll fight for (even die for?) the tribe we're in. I've yet to hear anyone on this forum prefer a brand that they're not actually using.


I use SRAM and Shimano and wish I had Campy. So there.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm a huge 7800 fan. However, like Malibru, if I had an Italian bike, I'd be running Campy. I will never ride a modern day Italian bike because I don't like Campy's shifter design. However, riding an Italian bike without Campy is a sacrilege, IMO too.


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> What Tour are you referring to, Cadel Evans won on Di2 in 2011 and Cavendish took green on Di2? Neither uses SRAM Red. Not to mention Cav seems perfectly capable of shifting from the drops in a frenzied sprint with Shimano (even prior to the remote shifter buttons offered with Di2). Your Italian branded bike was made in Taiwan or China, so it's manufacturing heritage is closer to Shimano (Japan/Malaysia) or SRAM (Taiwan/China) than Campagnolo (Italy/Romania). But your logic is interesting if not amusing...


My bad. Evans was indeed on Di2, but the Schleck brothers (2nd and 3rd) rode SRAM. And regarding the drops, I find it easier to shift in the drops on Campy due to the thumb shifters positioned right where your thumbs are in the drops (on top, that) and not so easy on either Shimano or SRAM, which I've ridden. 

As for the provenance of the frame, though many of Bianchi's frames are made in Asia (along with the vast majority of other manufacturer's frames), the 928 SL (which is Bianchi's top of the line model, and what I ride), as well as all other Reparto Corse frames, are still made in Italy. 

See FEATURES: RBA EXCLUSIVE: INSIDE THE BIANCHI FACTORY

Is there a difference? I think so. In the Asian factories, about 175 bikes a day are pumped through on the assembly line, while at the Italian plant, the handmade frames come out at about 50 a day. QC is considerably more committed to detail in Bianchi's Bergamo factory, no doubt about it. How many companies can make a similar claim? 

So you can perpetuate the myth that all Italian frames are made in Asia and I'm sure some lackeys will happily indulge your fantasy. It's amusing to watch.

See also Bianchi USA 2007 Lineup - It's all here


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

malibru said:


> My bad. Evans was indeed on Di2, but the Schleck brothers (2nd and 3rd) rode SRAM. And regarding the drops, I find it easier to shift in the drops on Campy due to the thumb shifters positioned right where your thumbs are in the drops (on top, that) and not so easy on either Shimano or SRAM, which I've ridden.
> 
> As for the provenance of the frame, though many of Bianchi's frames are made in Asia (along with the vast majority of other manufacturer's frames), the 928 SL (which is Bianchi's top of the line model, and what I ride), as well as all other Reparto Corse frames, are still made in Italy.
> 
> ...


I wasn't aware Bianchi produced the 928SL as a Reparto Course frameset so I'll stand corrected there, but the tubes most likely are produced in Asia and then shipped to Italy for final assembly but whatever... I can see you are the real deal so I bow to your incredibleness, shift your Campy in the drops sir, you've earned it. :thumbsup:


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> I wasn't aware Bianchi produced the 928SL as a Reparto Course frameset so I'll stand corrected there, but the tubes most likely are produced in Asia and then shipped to Italy for final assembly but whatever... I can see you are the real deal so I bow to your incredibleness, shift your Campy in the drops sir, you've earned it. :thumbsup:


Yikes... the sarcasm is thick in this forum. But it's true, I am incredible. Amazing that you could see that from just a couple of posts. Wow. (And please, don't hurt your back while bowing.)


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Excuse me, but the Leopard Team uses Shimano (although Fabulous Enchilada opts for mechanical DA over Di2.)


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Richard said:


> Excuse me, but the Leopard Team uses Shimano (although Fabulous Enchilada opts for mechanical DA over Di2.)


Yes they do, but Mailbru is awesome so no need to point out the obvious... That was the reason I asked him what Tour he was referring to since his statement didn't correspond to reality.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Actually the largest Chinese bicycle factory puts out 4,109 bicycles per day on the average, this is assuming they work 365 days a year putting out 1,500,000 bikes annually...not 175 per day.


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

froze said:


> Actually the largest Chinese bicycle factory puts out 4,109 bicycles per day on the average, this is assuming they work 365 days a year putting out 1,500,000 bikes annually...not 175 per day.


I wasn't referring to "the largest Chinese bicycle factory"; only indicating the Taiwan(?) factory for Bianchi bikes, which is the number quoted in the article I was referring to. But 4,109 bikes a day! But then again, there are a lot of Chinese.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

malibru said:


> I wasn't referring to "the largest Chinese bicycle factory"; only indicating the Taiwan(?) factory for Bianchi bikes, which is the number quoted in the article I was referring to. But 4,109 bikes a day! But then again, there are a lot of Chinese.


Sorry for the Bianchi thing. But those factories that put out 4,109 bikes a day is not for the Chinese, their for the rest of the world with all sorts of bicycle brands being put together in a wham bam thank you manner.


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

Richard said:


> Excuse me, but the Leopard Team uses Shimano (although Fabulous Enchilada opts for mechanical DA over Di2.)


Fair enough. Weird, though, that Cycling Week's Official Tour de France "Team Guide" for 2011states that Leopard would be using SRAM:

Tour de France 2011: Team guide | Latest News | Cycling Weekly


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

Mr. Scary said:


> Yes they do, but Mailbru is awesome so no need to point out the obvious... That was the reason I asked him what Tour he was referring to since his statement didn't correspond to reality.


Clearly I've gotten under your skin. Too easy. But I'll give you the last word so that you can live up to your name. Have at it...


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

malibru said:


> Fair enough. Weird, though, that Cycling Week's Official Tour de France "Team Guide" for 2011states that Leopard would be using SRAM:
> 
> Tour de France 2011: Team guide | Latest News | Cycling Weekly


They were wrong, obviously.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

And rumor has it that Radioshack-Leopard-Nissan-Mercedes-Northwave-Bontrager-Trek-Livestrong will be riding Microshift for 2012.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

malibru said:


> ..The one benefit to the thumbs, and this is a real benefit, is that you can shift (either up or down, depending on the derailleur) while in the drops. You can't do that with either Shimano or SRAM--or at least not easily.


OK, this claim is just ridiculous. I rode Campy for about 10 years and while I only prefer SRAM more, I'd say Campy is by far the least convenient in the drops. If reach is a problem, newer SRAM & Shimano have adjustable reach now.


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## malibru (Sep 5, 2011)

MarvinK said:


> OK, this claim is just ridiculous. I rode Campy for about 10 years and while I only prefer SRAM more, I'd say Campy is by far the least convenient in the drops. If reach is a problem, newer SRAM & Shimano have adjustable reach now.


I've ridden all three, as well, and I prefer Campy shifting in the drops. Haven't tried the adjustable reach, so I couldn't comment. But prior to that, I don't see how you can say that SRAM/Shimano shifting was better in the drops. Talk about ridiculous...


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## qatarbhoy (Aug 17, 2009)

Everyone disses Sora for being hard to shift from the drops, but it's the same basic idea as Campy. What gives?


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## snajper69 (Jun 22, 2011)

Slim Again said:


> Shimano is like Microsoft ... _except Shimano stuff works great!_




lol 

not cool my Microsoft stuff works great too  but Linux was a big dissapointment to me.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

malibru said:


> I've ridden all three, as well, and I prefer Campy shifting in the drops. Haven't tried the adjustable reach, so I couldn't comment. But prior to that, I don't see how you can say that SRAM/Shimano shifting was better in the drops. Talk about ridiculous...


If you can't shift Shimano/Sram from the drops, you must have stubby little chode fingers.

A trained monkey can do it.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> If you can't shift Shimano/Sram from the drops, you must have stubby little chode fingers.
> 
> A trained monkey can do it.



Did you just call someone a monkey?????


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

cpark said:


> Did you just call someone a monkey?????


Yep...everyone who can shift Shimano/Sram from the drops without issue.

I guess in a roundabout way, those who can't do that are sub-monkeys? What order/family/genus would that be then?


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