# Duration vs. Intensity



## slegros (Sep 22, 2009)

An interesting study postulates that a training mix of 80% of training done in zone 1, coupled with 20% above, at lower intensities than commonly done (closer to sweet-spot as opposed to above LT) may be ideal even among athletes training less than 10hrs/week.

Among the case studies was one of Knut Anders Fostervold, an elite runner who took up cycling after an injury. After 2 1/2 years of training on a program that included a large amount of high intensity intervals, and never exceeded 10hrs/week, he switched to a high volume program of 18hrs/week with 80% in zone one, and less intense intervals for the remaining 20%. 8 weeks after the switch his power at LT increased 15% and his VO2max increased by 9 points.

Another case study was the Spanish U23 cycling team who had both better VO2 numbers and better power at LT at the end of the winter meso-cycle, than at the end of the spring meso-cycle. This was despite the winter meso cycle having both less overall volume than the spring cycle, and less HIT. It was however closer to the 80:20 mix.


Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

I like the 80/20 mix and the study is one I like to read every few years. But keep in mind there are lots of ways to skin a cat and I believe anything done too much leads to stagnation.


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## TheBearOfCali (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for that link - A really good read!


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## hummina shadeeba (Oct 15, 2009)

*great article*

not light reading though. I basicly skipped to the conclusion. I'm going to try it.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I feel strongly both ways.........strongly, who talks like that?


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

I went for a ride with friends on Saturday. One of them moved to Cat 3 last year and is now on the podium regularly. I'm still Cat 4. I asked him what he changed. He said he now does 3 intervals 3 times during the week with high-paced group rides on the weekends. His workout:
Warm-up
High force low cadence to failure
Recover
High force high cadence to failure
Recover
Low force high cadence for 4-5 minutes
Cool down

Takes less than 30 minutes. 

He said that the first 2 intervals get both T1 and T2 muscles involved but in different neuromuscular ways and they cause subsequent adaptation. That is basically the "work". Taking them to failure provides the stimulus. Take a day off to recover and rebuild.

He blew past me pretty effortlessly on every sprint-to-the-top or sprint-to-the-sign. He was still killing it at the end of a 2 hour ride. Seems to be working for him.

I'm planning to incorporate more HIT based on his outline and results. His approach has two main advantages - less time required and OUTSTANDING results. I'd welcome thoughts about disadvantages.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

What works for him may not be suitable for you.

Hard training works though, if done properly.

As for why it works, well the explanations given about muscle type make little sense without additional information about the duration of efforts and an understanding of how they are executed (aside from the fact that that some people hardly have any type II fibre in their legs to start with).

For a lower Cat rider, the best training involves improving sustainable aerobic power to body weight ratio, and improving skills and experience in racing situations.

HIIT might give a short term boost, but is typically not as sustainable nor effective at developing the longer term improvements, so suggest using such sessions wisely and perhaps think about training that may be more effective for you.


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

He said his "to failure" efforts take about a minute. He explained that the initial effort engages the slow twitch, then the fast twitch kick in, then they are all exhausted. That causes adaptation during the recovery cycle.

I need to improve the short-duration, high-power efforts required to stay with the peloton in rollers. My FTP is 280-285w and that is sufficient to stay with the group and even take turns at the front briefly. The problem for me is when the group kicks it hard up a short roller. I currently have "diesel" power where I can keep going at 250-270w forever, but only about 425w for a minute and a rapid decline for wattage above that.

A common scenario is when the group goes hard up a hill and I have to do 550-600w for 30-60 seconds. I simply can’t do that, so I get dropped. When that happens, I over-drive my diesel capabilities by riding at 350w (possible but very taxing) for a few minutes to catch back on, re-join the group about the time they are hitting it hard again, get dropped again, repeat a few times, and I’m cooked. I really need to work on my 30s and 1m power. 

My newly-minted Cat3 friend said he had the same issue and his "to failure" training efforts are the reason for his newfound success.

I have not been doing high-power, to-failure training. I had become quite enamored with "sweet spot" training. It lowers the perceived suffering which makes it easier to do, but it's not working for me during races.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

*Failure? please tell me more.*



multirider said:


> I went for a ride with friends on Saturday. One of them moved to Cat 3 last year and is now on the podium regularly. I'm still Cat 4. I asked him what he changed. He said he now does 3 intervals 3 times during the week with high-paced group rides on the weekends. His workout:
> Warm-up
> High force low cadence to failure
> Recover
> ...



Hi, Please tell me more about until failure. 
Any time line? 
I think it would be longer than 30 minutes.
But I'm not a coach , just working to improve.

Thanks,
d


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## CoachTJCormier (Sep 16, 2011)

I would agree with Alex. HiiT training provides big jumps in fitness but they are short term.
Training to failure is training to fail (IMO), again short term gains but long term (even short term)it can lead to injury and once you're injured you not able to train.
Just my opinion


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## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

As I said in my previous post . . . 



multirider said:


> He said his "to failure" efforts take about a minute.


He compared it to working out in a gym -- going all out for 8-10 reps on benchpress or curls or whatever. Takes about a minute of all-out effort to reach failure. His theory is that, just like regular gym training, you do a couple of sets and you're done stressing those muscles, they will adapt to the increased work.

So he does the "to failure" workouts on MWF for approx 30 min, one long fast-paced group ride on the weekends. He was extremely forthcoming and willing to talk about the strategy and the specifics. 

It really works for him. There were 7 of us on the ride, we had previously been of about equal ability, and he destroyed us on every climb and every sprint for a 38 mile ride that took about 1:40.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

You have to have both. I think the "to failure" thing works well for most people, but only if they're mixing in plenty of Z2 miles and pure recovery rides as well. The people that get in a lot of trouble are attempting to adapt the "to failure" measures on every ride, and worse still, their Z2 rides end up being much more like high Z3, low Z4 rides instead. 

"You have to ride slow to ride fast". If you burned yourself out on your fast weekend ride, you're going to have a lot harder time with your "to failure" intervals on the weekdays. Just make sure that you rest just as hard as you train, if not more so. "Rest to failure?" That sounds like going to sleep to me, also a good idea!


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## Carrier (Feb 9, 2013)

Thanks for the tips, I learn a lot from this topic, duration vs. intensity.


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