# Loctite instead of specific spoke



## lawrence (May 17, 2005)

Some builders use a specific spoke locking salve when they build wheels. Loctite makes several different strengths. For those who use a bike specific locking substance, would you have a problem using one of the low strength loctite liquid as a money saving alternative?


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## StageHand (Dec 27, 2002)

Ummmm, I believe two of those products are actually made by LocTite. No problem, just make sure you're not using something too strong: you will need to make some tweaks later on.


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

If you're planning on using Loctite on spoke nipples don't use the standard pre-applied versions. There's a good chance they'll set before you finish truing the wheel, causing a nightmare of spoke twist problems.

*Loctite makes wicking grades for applying after assembly*. You can finish building the wheel then add a drop to the inside (towards the hub) end of each nipple afterwards and spin the wheel to force it out into the threads. 

Or better yet, apply it at the spoke holes and spin the wheel to force it to the nupple seat at the rim. Bonding the nipple to the rim instead of the spoke will make truing the wheel later on easier without dealing with having to break the spoke/nipple bond.

Either way, wait until the wheel is ridden a bit and settled in (stops pinging), so that if any touch up is needed you can do it before the Loctite is applied.


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## Puchnuts (Oct 9, 2008)

Most pro wheel-builders, myself included, would never use Locktite, or similar, on spokes. It's generally the sign of a lazy - or bad - builder. Just a dab of regular bicycle-type grease is all you want. Many people swear by linseed oil. Things that make the spokes turn in the nipples with ease.

If you see Locktite on a wheel - reject the wheel. The builder doesn't trust it to stay put - as a properly built and tensioned/stressed wheel would do. So they try to glue it in place. Bad sign.


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## awiner (Aug 28, 2007)

Campagnolo actually recommends in their wheel manuals using Loctite 222 )Green wicking grade) when you replace spokes in their wheels.

I've found Linseed oil works well.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

IME Loctite gets gummy and makes things a bear when you go to true the spokes.

Stay away

HTH

M


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

loctite is meant to lock threads in place and works good for that purpose. But you will need to adjust spoke tension at some point which is where the other products allow several adjustments before breaking down.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Puchnuts said:


> Most pro wheel-builders, myself included, would never use Locktite, or similar, on spokes. It's generally the sign of a lazy - or bad - builder. Just a dab of regular bicycle-type grease is all you want.


Agree. Why would anyone need to glue the nipples on when sufficient spoke tension will have the same effect? I use a purpose-made thread lubricant - anti-seize. That's just the opposite of a thread gummer-upper. It's never failed for me in decades of wheelbuilding AND it leaves the nipples free to turn years after the wheel was built.


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

Don't the DT Proloc nipples use some grade of Loctite? I built a set of CX tubulars with them myself and very true and very round at the end of the season (required a single 1/8th turn on the rear to true).


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## navsnipe (Jul 24, 2008)

+1 on Anti-Seize. I use it on just about everything that has threads and it doesn't dry out like some greases.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

Lemme add that I've tried pretty much everything I can get my hands on and prefer the dedicated spoke prep stuff from Wheelsmith.

I haven't tried Linseed oil. Couldn't tell you how it works.

M


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## Hoffman (Jul 29, 2008)

Wheel building is my favourite bike related task and I like to experiment. I'm still developing opinions on some stuff as I pour the miles on various wheelsets.

Wheelsmith stuff works great- trueable later as needed w/ no problems. Easy to build with- no probs w/ spoke twist as nipples seem to stay...lubed for lack of a better term.

RocknRoll Nipple Lube has a funny name but does not work well- seems to actually seize the spokes from my experience- bad problem w/ spoke twist during the build. Only have 500 miles or so on that wheel experiment so no truing necessary yet. Time will tell. Also the bottle spent a cold winter in my garage and seems to have separated and doesn't want to shake back together in the bottle. I will not use this on a second wheel.

Straight oil works well- I've used Triflow and have no probs w/ that wheelset as yet.

Blue loctite seems to work okay- I have ~2yrs and ~5k miles on a front wheel I built that way. I use it mostly for light cyclocross training rides and it has been bashed around and lightly retrued a couple times no problem. Of course it was built right to start with, so I can't say what the net effect of the loctite has been, but it seems to be fine. I took this technique from a mechanic I worked w/ at the time who swears by it and all I can say is it hasn't backfired 

Wheel building is one of those thing there are no hard rules on... but lots of opinions. Anyone want to debate the merits of tying and soldering spokes? Ha, didn't think so (I like it, just for the record).

Hoffman

Edit: I'll add that whenever possible in the future I will always use the Wheelsmith stuff. Second option will be plain bike oil.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Hoffman said:


> Anyone want to debate the merits of tying and soldering spokes? Ha, didn't think so (I like it, just for the record).


I'm not that daft  I've done it to two sets of my current wheels and another three or four sets I didn't. If asked why I do it, I answer "Because I can".



> I'll add that whenever possible in the future I will always use the Wheelsmith stuff. Second option will be plain bike oil.


If properly built wheels don't need it (and they don't need its thread-locking ability) then it's an expensive lube choice.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

I am relatively new to wheel building but following the advice of some folks here and reading Jobst Brandt's book I have been able to turn out a couple pair of solid wheels so far that haven't needed any adjustment after several months of use and abuse. No loc-tite used for those builds, and I don't plan to use it in the future. While in some cases it may be laziness or incompetence that prompts folks to use it, in other cases I suspect it's more disinformation or that people have been mislead about it. I have found that a properly tensioned and built wheel with quality components will hold up just fine and it's nice to know the nipples can be turned down the road if I need to make any adjustments.


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

Puchnuts said:


> Most pro wheel-builders, myself included, would never use Locktite, or similar, on spokes. It's generally the sign of a lazy - or bad - builder. Just a dab of regular bicycle-type grease is all you want. Many people swear by linseed oil. Things that make the spokes turn in the nipples with ease.
> 
> If you see Locktite on a wheel - reject the wheel. The builder doesn't trust it to stay put - as a properly built and tensioned/stressed wheel would do. So they try to glue it in place. Bad sign.


What exactly is a "pro" wheel-builder? And how did you earn this title?


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

Puchnuts said:


> Most pro wheel-builders, myself included, would never use Locktite, or similar, on spokes. It's generally the sign of a lazy - or bad - builder. Just a dab of regular bicycle-type grease is all you want. Many people swear by linseed oil. Things that make the spokes turn in the nipples with ease.
> 
> If you see Locktite on a wheel - reject the wheel. The builder doesn't trust it to stay put - as a properly built and tensioned/stressed wheel would do. So they try to glue it in place. Bad sign.


Linseed oil is like a natural Locktite as it is a drying oil and drys out. 

But yeah, Locktite shouldn't be needed unless the wheel is poorly built or under built for your ride style and weight and the spokes are becoming slack, hence allowing the nipples to unwind. So you could Locktite the under built wheel but chances are it will become a spoke breaking nightmare.

I've used Spoke Prep and don't really like it, as it didn't lubricate enough. I tend to like oils the best. Olive oil is nice. You can wheel build with a side of bread to eat and it allows easy adjustment later.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

big_papa_nuts said:


> What exactly is a "pro" wheel-builder? And how did you earn this title?


I'd think that you earn the _technical_ title once you get paid to build a set of wheels. I suppose you truly _earn_ the title once that paying customer uses the wheels as intended and then recommends your services to fellow riders.


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## Hoffman (Jul 29, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> I'm not that daft  I've done it to two sets of my current wheels and another three or four sets I didn't. If asked why I do it, I answer "Because I can".
> 
> 
> If properly built wheels don't need it (and they don't need its thread-locking ability) then it's an expensive lube choice.


I said 'whenever possible' because I work in a bike shop and don't pay to bad my spokes in the bottle  Although I must say that whatever the stuff costs (don't remember) a single bottle will lube enough spokes for a metric crap-ton of wheels. Although bike oil is obviously cheaper because you already have some for other purposes, I don't consider the WS stuff expensive because it goes so far (not that I'll be building that many wheels though).

I did find a good use for tying/soldering- a guy had some black spokes that were rubbing each other making a lot of noise (put a dab of oil at each cross on the 3x rear wheel and the problem disappeared until the lube dissipated). I switched them to standard silver spokes- still noisy. Tyed/soldered them together- problem solved. Not the typical argument for the procedure, but it was all I could think to do (and because I can haha)  Either way I didn't charge him for it, even though I had to order the parts to T&S. Customer happy, bike tech satisfied with problem solving skills, case closed.


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## Hoffman (Jul 29, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> What exactly is a "pro" wheel-builder? And how did you earn this title?


Whatever you do as a profession makes you a pro, no? 

Pro wheel-builder: noun, Someone who builds wheels to put food on his table.


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

Hoffman said:


> Whatever you do as a profession makes you a pro, no?
> 
> Pro wheel-builder: noun, Someone who builds wheels to put food on his table.


I was trying to get a more specific answer. The word pro gets thrown around to much to have much meaning to me.


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## Puchnuts (Oct 9, 2008)

I've built wheels since 1984. I've built custom-wheels for many folks. I get paid - or work for trade. You tell me?


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

Puchnuts said:


> I've built wheels since 1984. I've built custom-wheels for many folks. I get paid - or work for trade. You tell me?


I'd say that's a fair definition. 

Are we considering spoke prep as a loctite-esque product? Because that's one thing I will disagree with you on.

I will agree that loctite or spoke freeze on a freshly built wheel should be unnecessary, considering that all parts are in good order and correctly speced for the rider and their style. But those products are a reasonable way to repair problems, and stop them from becoming worse. Well, spoke freeze at least.


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## Puchnuts (Oct 9, 2008)

I have virtually no experience with Wheelsmith Spoke-Prep. I have always used a dab of bike-grease. I've never had a problem. And I recommend this. 

My wheels roll true without the need of "glue." Rather than some expensive stuff that should never be needed, I suggest that folks properly tension the spokes and stress them. I suggest a tension-meter be used by first-time builder. The technology is here - why not use it?


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

Puchnuts said:


> I have virtually no experience with Wheelsmith Spoke-Prep. I have always used a dab of bike-grease. I've never had a problem. And I recommend this.
> 
> My wheels roll true without the need of "glue." Rather than some expensive stuff that should never be needed, I suggest that folks properly tension the spokes and stress them. I suggest a tension-meter be used by first-time builder. The technology is here - why not use it?


That's the same argument I use to recommend spoke prep. Why not use something specially made for this specific purpose when it's so radially available? 

And any wheel builder should have a tension-meter, if even to double check themselves.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

big_papa_nuts said:


> That's the same argument I use to recommend spoke prep. Why not use something specially made for this specific purpose when it's so radially available?


Years ago I cheekily contacted Wheelsmith to ask them what was in their spokeprep. The answer was "mostly teflon" which is, of course, a lube. There was no mention of the thread-locker ingredients. So many of us have ascertained that a thread locker is not necessary as our nipples never unscrew. So then all we need is the lube part of spokeprep. Lots of stuff acts as a lube but some things stick around longer than others. My fave - anti-seize compound - stays around better than any other lube I have found. So if spoke prep is just used for its lube properties then it's a very expensive lube -
http://www.bikepartsplace.com/discount/mini-spoke-prep-2-pak/



> And any wheel builder should have a tension-meter, if even to double check themselves.


Should have? I've lost count of the wheels I've built in the past 47 years and have never used a tension meter once, nor suffered from the lack of one. Those who need one should maybe use one I guess.


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## Puchnuts (Oct 9, 2008)

I love my FSA...










It's so fun to use!


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

lawrence said:


> Some builders use a specific spoke locking salve when they build wheels. Loctite makes several different strengths. For those who use a bike specific locking substance, would you have a problem using one of the low strength loctite liquid as a money saving alternative?



All I have ever put on the threads of spokes on a wheel build is grease.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*No and yes*



Mike T. said:


> My fave - anti-seize compound - stays around better than any other lube I have found. So if spoke prep is just used for its lube properties then it's a very expensive lube.


Nothing wrong with anti-seize, but I just took apart a wheel that had nearly 36,000 miles (58,000 km) on them to replace the rim, and the grease that I had used was still working fine - the spoke nipples came off smooth as butter. I really think that a quality grease and anti-seize are pretty comparable in this application.



Mike T. said:


> Should have [a tensiometer]? I've lost count of the wheels I've built in the past 47 years and have never used a tension meter once, nor suffered from the lack of one. Those who need one should maybe use one I guess.


I couldn't agree more. I've never used a tensionmeter, and not had problems with the 100s of wheels I've built. "A poor workman blames his tools."


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

You can get pretty close to even tension by ear and kinda close (if you lube really well) by feel, but the meter always works better IMO. Not to mention trying to get the tensions to a specific spec or working with different spoke gauges or materials.

I've found that many folks that claim to have built many wheels with even tension don't always have what they think they have....


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> I couldn't agree more. I've never used a tensionmeter, and not had problems with the 100s of wheels I've built. "A poor workman blames his tools."


But that thinking could be flipped. You guys say you have not suffered from not using one, I could say you have never benefited from it. There is no sense in not using all the tools at your disposal to do the best job you can.

"A true craftsman never blames his tools".


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

big_papa_nuts said:


> But that thinking could be flipped. You guys say you have not suffered from not using one, I could say you have never benefited from it. There is no sense in not using all the tools at your disposal to do the best job you can.


And what would be the "benefit"? Would you define that?


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> And what would be the "benefit"? Would you define that?


I will.

They are an easy and fast way to get even tension. You can do this by ear (time consuming) and somewhat poorly by hand. I find even well lubed nipples/spokes/eyelets don't always feel the same through the wrench. 

They allow you to set tension to spec, like the max spec'd tension on a rim. This will help you get a quality wheel that will use the most of what the components can handle without the guess work. 

They help to eliminate some of the guess work when working with different or unknown spoke gauges and trying to estimate by feel.

You can document tension so you know what action to take should a wheel not hold up like desired. For example if you knew it was at max recommended tension for the rim you could go up a gauge on spokes or go a certain amount past the max recommended tension if desired (I've done this with good results on some, but it can lead to rim failure on others).

I say why not?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

And what will the benefit be over and above a wheel on which a tensiometer has not been used?


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## big_papa_nuts (Feb 11, 2009)

ChuckUni said:


> I will.
> 
> They are an easy and fast way to get even tension. You can do this by ear (time consuming) and somewhat poorly by hand. I find even well lubed nipples/spokes/eyelets don't always feel the same through the wrench.
> 
> ...


That sounds about right. Equate it to not using a torque wrench on a bolt.


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> And what will the benefit be over and above a wheel on which a tensiometer has not been used?


How do those points not lead to better wheel? More even tension built to the spec of the rim or somewhere where you are comfortable will lead to a better wheel, period. Also, the meter is faster and more accurate than the alternatives, IMO.

I've found that those that use the "feel" method don't generally stand up very well to testing by the tensiometer. Nor do most have a good idea what their tensions actually are. You don't build the best wheels by randomly tensioning to you feel it's "right." Way to many variables in that. 

Will it work a lot of the times? Yes....maybe more so if you are really familiar with what components you are using. Maybe even more with lots of experience. Even then, is it best? No, IMO.

Again, why not? How are accuracy and repeatability a bad thing?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Because old wheelbuilders think they know everything, and that their way is the ONLY way.

<<< Old wheelbuilder.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

And what quantifiable benefit will all this give over a wheel on which a tensiometer is not used? What is the benefit of your wheel over my wheel? There's got to be a payoff for your time and expense. What is it?


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> And what quantifiable benefit will all this give over a wheel on which a tensiometer is not used? What is the benefit of your wheel over my wheel? There's got to be a payoff for your time and expense. What is it?


Man, we can go back and forth on this. Did you read what I wrote? I'm not going to write the same things over an over and if you don't understand that even and proper tension builds a better, longer lasting wheel.

So how do you know that you are building with even and proper tension? How do you know that this stays consistent when using different components, especially spoke gauge?

Quantifiable? I have retensioned wheels built by "pros" that had questionable component spec for the rider and originally came apart. Most times after I messed with them they have either been problem free or have lasted much longer, without the use of loctite or other bandaids. Many of these have been abused mtb wheels. 

If you are using somewhat overbuilt components, you can get away with more error. 

As far as time, as I said, I believe it is FASTER than reasonable alternatives for checking tension, even if it's just checking to see if tension is even, not aiming for a spec. 

Expensive is minimal, especially if you build a lot of wheels like many of you claim.

Not using one does not make you a better builder in any way. You might be a good builder, but certainly not better.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> And what quantifiable benefit will all this give over a wheel on which a tensiometer is not used? What is the benefit of your wheel over my wheel? There's got to be a payoff for your time and expense. What is it?


After 20 years of working on cars, I can replace a head gasket and torque the head bolts to something close to specs with a normal ratchet. Would you rather a mechanic get the head bolts "close, by hand" or would you rather they use a torque wrench so that all of the bolts are exactly the same torque?


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## ChuckUni (Jan 2, 2003)

PlatyPius said:


> After 20 years of working on cars, I can replace a head gasket and torque the head bolts to something close to specs with a normal ratchet. Would you rather a mechanic get the head bolts "close, by hand" or would you rather they use a torque wrench so that all of the bolts are exactly the same torque?


Funny thing is the tensiometer gets closer than a torque wrench as it measures the final result (via deflection) which eliminates factors like variations in friction between components as you tighten it down.

Which is why many repair techniques use torque + turn methods now...


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

I can think of a reason to use a tensiometer. When you have a rim with a max tension rating like Zipp rims. The max tension on a Zipp rim is 100kgf and if you build the wheel higher then that it will most likely crack at a spoke hole. If you don't have tensiometer how do you know if you are at, below or way to high on the tension? Also if you have never used a tensiometer you don't know what 100kgf "feels" like because you have never actually measured tension. 

For spoke threads I use Phil Wood oil. I do also use Dt prolock nipples but not because of the prolock compound in them but the hex head on the end of the nipple so that I can use a T handled wrench to build the wheel.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*Hearing loss*



ChuckUni said:


> I will.
> 
> They are an easy and fast way to get even tension. You can do this by ear (time consuming) and somewhat poorly by hand. I find even well lubed nipples/spokes/eyelets don't always feel the same through the wrench.
> 
> ...


I recently lost faith in the ear. I had built up some wheels and compared the tension meter with tune and it was pretty close. But when I built a wheel using a Nexus red band hub and Mavic rim, any two spokes that were "in tune" were way off when measured with a tension meter. So with this wheel, if I had relied on ear, it would have been worse than relying on a tension meter or just feel. 
For anyone claiming that even tension is important, the use of a tension meter is a straight shot of logic. It's like someone who feels being on time is important, but then proclaims watches are unnecessary and people are better off showing up when they "feel" it's the correct time.
I think if someone has been building wheels for years by just feel, and those wheels have functioned properly, they should continue to do what has worked for them. But it's almost certain that experience included many early wheels that didn't. It wouldn't make sense for a beginner to purposefully avoid using a tension meter just for the sake of "paying their dues" and building unnecessary bad wheels.


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