# Paint crack or frame crack? Help!



## socalpat

I was cleaning my two year old Trek 5.2 SL and noticed a crack on the seat tube. I took the bike to the bike shop I purchased from, they kept the bike overnight and called me saying that it wasn’t a crack in the frame but just a "paint crack." Because the bike is two years old Trek doesn’t warranty "paint cracks" after one year. What do you think is it a paint crack or not? The crack doesn’t go all the way around the complete tube. 



















Any suggestions on what I should do?


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## zac

Looks like a paint crack. But I'm 3500 miles away in New England. Wouldn't worry about it.

zac

EDIT I bet if you turned your ride over and closely inspected the chainstays at the BB lug junction, you may see similar "cracks" in the paint. They happen, carbon frames are sometimes prone to them.


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## socalpat

zac said:


> Looks like a paint crack. But I'm 3500 miles away in New England. Wouldn't worry about it.
> 
> zac
> 
> EDIT I bet if you turned your ride over and closely inspected the chainstays at the BB lug junction, you may see similar "cracks" in the paint. They happen, carbon frames are sometimes prone to them.


Thanks for the comments. I looked under the BB lug junction and no "cracks" in the paint. I can see how junction areas could develop paint cracks, but on the pictures above it seems a little odd to have a "paint crack" in the middle of the seat tube.


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## jsedlak

Not to threadjack, but when I ride my 5.2 (08) on my trainer, the seat mast bends a lot... boy it looks freaky, like I am just going to be riding on the trainer one day and crack! right in half!


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## davidka

Paint crack. That's where the seam between the BB lug and seat tube is and why the mark is perfectly straight. If it's been there a while then you have nothing to worry about, if the joint were failing the damage to the paint at the joint would get progressively worse from movement, quickly.


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## socalpat

I feel a little better. Today I took bike to another two bike shops (another Trek dealers across town and a independent bike shop) to get a separate opinion. ALL three bike shops have said it was a "paint crack" and NO structural damage and they didn't see any reason not to ride the bike. Trek does have a lifetime warranty on frames, however they only warranty paint for one year. So I'm stuck with this cosmetic flaw. I'm selling the bike so I'll probably take a hit on it, but that' life.


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## Retro Grouch

Are you selling the bike just because it has a paint crack?


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## socalpat

Retro Grouch said:


> Are you selling the bike just because it has a paint crack?


No, I actually purchased another bike and finally pulled the 5.2 out of the garage and when cleaning it I noticed the paint crack. Part of my plan was to use the money from the sell of this bike to help pay for the new bike.


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## dwd

no worries - it looks like your bottle cage is holding things together nicely!


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## zac

jsedlak said:


> Not to threadjack, but when I ride my 5.2 (08) on my trainer, the seat mast bends a lot... boy it looks freaky, like I am just going to be riding on the trainer one day and crack! right in half!


J this is a pre-seat mast Madone, so not a similar issue.


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## zac

davidka said:


> Paint crack. That's where the seam between the BB lug and seat tube is and why the mark is perfectly straight. If it's been there a while then you have nothing to worry about, if the joint were failing the damage to the paint at the joint would get progressively worse from movement, quickly.


David, that is what I was leaning toward, but I didn't think the BB lugs on the 05-07 Madones go that far up seat tube. --> I guess they do?

The paint cracks also emphasize the fact that light colored paint tends to show these cracks all that more prominently than multi or dark colored frames.


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## TriNewb24

my '06 madone 5.5 has the exact same thing.


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## jsedlak

zac said:


> J this is a pre-seat mast Madone, so not a similar issue.


I know... I was just mentioning it because it was the same area and can be equally scary. At least to me...


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## MNWII

*Trek Frame Warranty*



socalpat said:


> No, I actually purchased another bike and finally pulled the 5.2 out of the garage and when cleaning it I noticed the paint crack. Part of my plan was to use the money from the sell of this bike to help pay for the new bike.


I just finished reading this link. Apparently if someone buy a trek from you, they are not the original owner and thus the warranty for the frame does not transfer. Sorry about that.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/support/limited_warranty/


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## MNWII

Is this a known problem with Madone or just this year or model 5.2? Thanks. Anyone else have this paint ring problem?


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## zac

MNWII said:


> Is this a known problem with Madone or just this year or model 5.2? Thanks. Anyone else have this paint ring problem?


I wouldn't so much as call it a problem, and certainly not limited to Treks. More of an issue with lugged carbon fiber frames or structures subjected to repetitive stresses.


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## MNWII

zac said:


> I wouldn't so much as call it a problem, and certainly not limited to Treks. More of an issue with lugged carbon fiber frames or structures subjected to repetitive stresses.


That helps thanks. Clearly the cosmetics aren''t a dire issue, I was just worried it meant there was a carbon crack or developing weak spot.


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## zac

Couple of years ago I would have agreed with worries about cf. But I have been riding and abusing CF frames, wheels and parts for the better part of 5 years now. I am not kind to equipment. I haven't been able to break anything. But the real coup was last spring watching my mechanic jump on the rear triangle of an OCLV Madone that was laying flat on the ground (no wheel, just an open frame.) This was a warranty frame that they kept for demo. He basically bounced off. Frame suffered not at all.

I also took the cut off from my carbon steerer on my newest Madone ~15mm in length...and put it in my biggest vise. (full size shop vise with twin 1" diameter screws - opens over 12"), I was playing around and tried to see if I could crush it...well, I honestly thought the vise was going to explode. Mind you a similar piece of steel tube in the same situation would have crushed like an aluminum soda can.

This stuff is unbelievably tough. Not just the OCLV, but much of the High Modulus Carbon market. It is perhaps because of its rigidity and toughness that these paint cracks are showing up. But I don't know for sure.

I do know that I have had two Red Madones an '08 and an '09 and both of them have shown these types of cracks. The '08 more so than the 09. My '05 Madone SL also had a couple, but they were almost invisible due to it's darker colors. I suspect that many frames have them, but are just never detected.

zac


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## zac

MNWII said:


> That helps thanks. Clearly the cosmetics aren''t a dire issue, I was just worried it meant there was a carbon crack or developing weak spot.


Also Trek has a one year warranty on paint. And I know for a fact that they will warranty a Madone showing these paint cracks within the one year.

I would think that manufacturers would seek to develop or use more pliable paints that give and take a bit. It would certainly cut down on warranty and repaint issues. Especially a company like Trek that offers the P1 program with so many different paint schemes and options.


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## MNWII

I found this written about the Madone 2007 5.2 SL. What do you guys think? Are cracks in the pain a sign of something worse underneath? Are Trek dealers told to always say "it's just the paint?" 

"The only issue, which has been an issue with Trek carbon bikes for over a decade, is the paint cracking. Rather than find a remedy for the problem, Trek now warrantees paint for one year...so, after 6 months on my latest frame, I now have to spend two months without it while it gets repainted or replaced – after all, once the paint cracks there is no way to know if it is just paint of if the frame has cracked. I have been through this before, and have always been GURANTEED by the sales rep that it was just paint. Well, 3 out of the 4 times this has happened it was indeed a cracked frame. Of course, I only found this out after INSISTING it be sent back to Trek, at my own expense of course. This is a major safety issue that Trek doesn't seem to want to correct. This is my 4th carbon frame from Trek...I'm tired of this never ending cycle of replacements.

I’m not saying don’t buy one, but inspect you paint constantly. My experience has been that when the paint it cracked, it is a sign of a bigger problem. Insist that your local bike shop send it back – trust me they will tell you it is just paint and to forget about it. I used to sell these bikes and this is what we were told to do by Trek."


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## Blue CheeseHead

I had the same thing on my 1999 5200. It was just the paint, no big deal.

So far no paint cracks on my 2004 5900.

From an engineering point of view it makes sense that there would be a slight differential in strain where the tube joins the lug which would result in a paint crack.

I sold my 5200 on ebay and disclosed the paint cracks and that they were determined to be so by a dealer and Trek (photos sent to Trek for inspection).

The new owner is very happy with the bike and my disclosure did not seem to cost me by receiving lower bids.


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## zac

MNWII said:


> I found this written about the Madone 2007 5.2 SL. What do you guys think? Are cracks in the pain a sign of something worse underneath? Are Trek dealers told to always say "it's just the paint?"
> 
> "The only issue, which has been an issue with Trek carbon bikes for over a decade, is the paint cracking. Rather than find a remedy for the problem, Trek now warrantees paint for one year...so, after 6 months on my latest frame, I now have to spend two months without it while it gets repainted or replaced – after all, once the paint cracks there is no way to know if it is just paint of if the frame has cracked. I have been through this before, and have always been GURANTEED by the sales rep that it was just paint. Well, 3 out of the 4 times this has happened it was indeed a cracked frame. Of course, I only found this out after INSISTING it be sent back to Trek, at my own expense of course. This is a major safety issue that Trek doesn't seem to want to correct. This is my 4th carbon frame from Trek...I'm tired of this never ending cycle of replacements.
> 
> I’m not saying don’t buy one, but inspect you paint constantly. My experience has been that when the paint it cracked, it is a sign of a bigger problem. Insist that your local bike shop send it back – trust me they will tell you it is just paint and to forget about it. I used to sell these bikes and this is what we were told to do by Trek."


I would have to entirely and respectfully disagree with almost everything in this post.

This is entirely from memory, and there are a couple of threads here in this forum documenting this with a bit more accuracy than my memory. 

I was one of the first owners of Red series carbon Madone in the Northeast US. It was a 2008 Madone 6.5Pro. It was ordered in September or October 2007 and delivered mid December 2007. I took actual delivery on it just after Christmas 2007. I ride my road bikes in the winter here in New England and I am not kind to them. 
Sometime in late spring or early summer of 2008, I started to notice "cracks" in the paint, all near tube/lug junctions. I casually mentioned this to my LBS owner (whom I am friends with and ride with). It was more just a mention than anything. I had no intentions and never did make a warranty claim. Now this particular LBS is a top 50 Trek dealer (so big Trek shop - actually 3 - and this was the first Red Madone they took delivery on, or had seen).
Note that I detected no difference in ride quality nor did any simple tests of the areas affected reveal any sort of problem.

Couple weeks later LBS owner tells me that the local Trek rep wants to see the bike. IIRC this was sometime in mid June '08. That was arranged and the rep took a look. Couple days later he called me and told me that Trek wanted the bike back, was it okay? Mind you, I still have the bike and am riding it daily. Was told the "cracks" were paint cracks but Trek wanted to study the bike...this wasn't going to be a repaint, this was going to be a replacement. 
Sometime early July, I believe, A new frame arrived at LBS. Notice I was still on my bike and riding it. After scheduling a swap (summer vacations and such and my mechanic making time for it) it was arranged to do it, the swap, which happened in August of 2008.
I received a brand new frame and what was interesting is that it was a 2009 frame in the 2008 colors. I subsequently learned of another rider who also received an 09 in 08 colors for a replacement.
Throughout the process, I, nor my LBS ever made a warranty claim on this frame, or the paint...in which case it just would have been repainted. I rode the bike the entire time with the cracks on recommendation of both the LBS and Trek, which recommendation never would have occurred if these were anything but paint cracks. I could not begin to tell you the liability implications the alternative would have posed. Especially if the recommendation was given, with a knowledge that this was a known or possible structural issue and not just cosmetic.

Now my post is no more valuable nor is its veracity any more credible than the post you refer to, however, I have serious issues with one individual who has gone through 3 or 4 frames due to structural carbon issues. Me thinks there is something wrong with the rider and not the bikes. I take that story with a hefty grain of salt.

FWIW
zac


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## Blue CheeseHead

Trek could probably solve the problem by switching to a more elastomeric paint such as those that are used on cars rubber bumper covers.

+1 Zac. It is highly, highly unlikely that one would get 3 defective frames out of 4.


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## pillowsplat

*2004 Madone 5.9 Purchased Sept 2006*

Refused by shop and Regional Trek rep for same cracks at lower seat tube BB junction a year ago. Emailed Trek 2 weeks ago "Its a paint crack". I'm striping the parts and taking it to the dealer for inspection. Cracks at the following Lug intersections - Chain stay & BB - Top Tube & Seat Tube - Top tube & Head Tube - lower fork legs.

The only way that paint cracks is if there is movement. Now I can understand that the frame might not come apart but there is a high probablity that the glue has failed.
I will do the following ask for the frame to be sent back for regluing. and they refuse I will ask for it in writing that the frame is sound and report back here.


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## zac

pillowsplat said:


> Refused by shop and Regional Trek rep for same cracks at lower seat tube BB junction a year ago. Emailed Trek 2 weeks ago "Its a paint crack". I'm striping the parts and taking it to the dealer for inspection. Cracks at the following Lug intersections - Chain stay & BB - Top Tube & Seat Tube - Top tube & Head Tube - lower fork legs.
> 
> The only way that paint cracks is if there is movement. Now I can understand that the frame might not come apart but there is a high probablity that the glue has failed.
> I will do the following ask for the frame to be sent back for regluing. and they refuse I will ask for it in writing that the frame is sound and report back here.


Refused what? to repaint? Trek's paint warranty is one year.

While you haven't posted any pictures of your issue, if they are paint cracks, then your characterization of a high probability of glue failure is completely without merit.

As has been said here and elsewhere, many times: This is a known and somewhat common affliction to any lugged carbon frame. You seem to think that movement is bad! Yes, of course these frames "move!" The carbon *is designed* to do this in different ways throughout the frame. Some is linear, some is torsional, some is flexing. Likewise, the lugs also experience their own special kinds of loads and "movement." And lastly, the "glue" forms bonds at the molecular level and is usually the last thing to fail.

Now if you want to talk about primers, paints and clear that can't handle these movements, then I am with you. The auto industry seems to handle these issues quite well.

zac


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## acrossawire

socalpat said:


> I was cleaning my two year old Trek 5.2 SL and noticed a crack on the seat tube. I took the bike to the bike shop I purchased from, they kept the bike overnight and called me saying that it wasn’t a crack in the frame but just a "paint crack." Because the bike is two years old Trek doesn’t warranty "paint cracks" after one year. What do you think is it a paint crack or not? The crack doesn’t go all the way around the complete tube.
> 
> Any suggestions on what I should do?


I know this is an old post, but i have the same issue in my '05 Madone. crack around the entirety of the seat tube and a crack in both chainstays. LBS assures me it's only paint. Socalpat, ever confirm if yours was paint or frame crack?


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