# Ranking of Carbon Wheel Brands



## TDFbound (Jul 11, 2017)

I have been trying to decide which carbon clincher road disc rims to buy. I would love a set of Enve wheels and have a few friends that ride them and love them, but the price is a bit hard to swallow. I was looking at Boyd wheels, but somebody said I could get better wheels than Boyd for less than the price of Enve, but never mentioned which brand to look at. Is there a good list of carbon wheel brands that ranks them by quality? My purpose in asking is to help me and others make an informed decision regarding the best quality that can be had for any specific budget. Specially, I am trying to find the best value for mod-high end carbon clincher road disc wheels with 40mm-ish deep rims for general purpose riding.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

1) Durable
2) Light
3) Inexpensive

Pick two.

What is your budget? Look at the HED website. I'm not a fan of carbon wheels, but just about anything HED makes will be good.


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## MN_Roadie (Oct 3, 2012)

I'd say Flo Wheels, given your criteria. Know a couple of guys with them; they absolutely love them...the fact that they're pretty much cheaper than any others is a big selling point too.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)




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## vic bastige (Jan 22, 2004)

I've had Enve 3.4 SES and Zipp (303s and 404s). I prefer the Zipps for over-all ride experience and stiffness AND braking quality. I have no tie to Wheelbuilder or their business, but I got my 303s and 404s with customer colored Chris King hubs, nipples and upgraded spokes for only a few hundred more than the Boyds.


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## zipp2001 (Feb 24, 2007)

I've had Hed wheels forever, I actually have 3 sets but they are tri-spokes and Disc wheels. I do have a set of Reynolds 81's that I really love and are my daily road bike wheels for the last three years. I did pick-up a Hed 90 off ebay band new for half the price in January. I found out that Hed uses ebay to sell off old stock (new) but under a different name, not the company name. All my communications was to Heds corporate head quarters and they shipped straight form corp. They weren't knock offs.


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## TDFbound (Jul 11, 2017)

zipp2001 said:


> I've had Hed wheels forever, I actually have 3 sets but they are tri-spokes and Disc wheels. I do have a set of Reynolds 81's that I really love and are my daily road bike wheels for the last three years. I did pick-up a Hed 90 off ebay band new for half the price in January. I found out that Hed uses ebay to sell off old stock (new) but under a different name, not the company name. All my communications was to Heds corporate head quarters and they shipped straight form corp. They weren't knock offs.


Would you mind sending me their related ebay info in a PM?


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## bumpride (Jul 7, 2017)

Lombard said:


> 1) Durable
> 2) Light
> 3) Inexpensive
> 
> Pick two.


I agree with Lombard. I think Bontrager might have coined that famous saying. If you are looking at Boyd to start we, then i am guessing you are looking at the sub 2000 price range. 

There are still plenty of brands in this category that will offer good product after sale services.
1. Irwin Cycling 
2. Reynolds
3. FLO 
are 3 i can think on top of my head


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## TDFbound (Jul 11, 2017)

bumpride said:


> I agree with Lombard. I think Bontrager might have coined that famous saying. If you are looking at Boyd to start we, then i am guessing you are looking at the sub 2000 price range.
> 
> There are still plenty of brands in this category that will offer good product after sale services.
> 1. Irwin Cycling
> ...


Yeah I was trying to keep it around $2000. Is there anything in between $2000 and the $3000+ required for a set of Enve wheels? I would like to be able to buy just the rims as I would like to set up this pair of wheels with the Onyx road disc hubs. I know they are heavier but I will get more enjoyment over a lighter noisier hub. These wheels will be my wheels for longer rides and sportives, maybe some specific workouts. I do plan on getting a separate lightweight set for hilly races at sometime in the future, but a durable all-around wheelset is what I'm after now.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

TDFbound said:


> Is there anything in between $2000 and the $3000+ required for a set of Enve wheels?


A set of Enve's can be had for about $2500.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

If November still made carbon wheels, I would have recommended them. Theirs were the best bang for the buck in that market.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Srode said:


> A set of Enve's can be had for about $2500.


Totally... only time they approach 3k would be boutique hubs and or powertap and even then it should be below 3k


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks for the shout, but we've had a long long journey to the considered belief that carbon is just not the thing to build road wheels out of. Start with the premise that in order for a decision to be worthwhile, that the payback in return for payment should be net positive (or at least neutral). What paybacks do carbon make possible? Potential aerodynamics gains, potential weight gains, potential stiffness gains, and aesthetics. 

In reality, we've found that none of the above (except aesthetics) bear fruit in carbon clinchers. We've covered the aerodynamics ad infinitum, and unless you're going really really deep there's almost no there there. The exceptionally credible German Magazine Tour placed a 13w range between Mavic Ksyrium and Zipp 404 (which was tied with a DT Swiss 65 and maybe one other for best). A humble Kinlin XC279 was like 6 or 7w worse than the 404, and from tests this winter we know that the 303s numbers are matched by several quality alloy rims. 303 is at a 3w deficit to 404 per Tour - and these are all at 30mph. But 404 is about at the outer edge of what anyone wants to ride because of handling concerns. This whole thought paradigm that aero wheels would give you an amazing boost of speed is largely thanks to this "10* yaw angle is the dominant condition" fallacy that was initiated by one of the major aero wheel brands and certainly served well to buttress the idea of enormous aero differences, but it's been debunked to bits. So yes there are some small aero gains but for most riders it's well south of not much.

Weight, just iteratively, hasn't panned out in favor of carbon clinchers. You need mass to heat sink the braking forces. Resin heat resistance exists on a parallel curve to brittleness, so as you increase heat resistance you make the rims more brittle. In order to overcome that, you need to add more material to add strength. You can dope the resin to soften some of the corners of this piece of materials science, but you can't "change the game." 

We regularly measure alloy rims that are comparably stiff to carbon ones, and have seen rims where weight and stiffness were both markedly in favor of an equally aerodynamic carbon rim. 

Carbon rims are also simply difficult to mold and produce. The supply chain is really long and every ingredient and part of the process is absolutely critical path. They're hard to get right and often go wrong - as products in the market, even the fancy branded expensive ones, continue to prove daily. 

On the other hand, alloy rims offer benefit of cost, generally superior handling manners, infinitely better braking performance with regard to heat and also heaps better braking in general. And now, with the proliferation of PEO ("ceramic") brake track rims, the aesthetics bridge has been crossed - there are some carbon rims out there (Zipp NSW for one) that have a much more visually pronounced brake track than a PEO rim. 

That's simply my (and November's) position. It's informed by having sourced and sold carbon, as well as having been a dealer and builder of "not our" carbon rims, and having consulted with a whole bunch of the world's leading carbon and molding experts (I live at ground zero for boat building tech and have many lifelong friends and some family members who are in that realm). This position may situationally disagree with any one person's experience, but in the aggregate, I categorically believe it to be correct.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

spdntrxi said:


> Totally... only time they approach 3k would be boutique hubs and or powertap and even then it should be below 3k


They should sell it for $5 because Mavic products suck a$$. lol


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Thanks Dave at November for a brilliant and fact filled reply. Many excellent points such as the 10 degree yaw and almost non-existent gains at 30mph.


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

I take what Dave and November says quite seriously. And I know a lot of folks will only want to look at certain name-brands. 

But if the OP or others has decided (for aesthetics, weight savings, or other reasons) they want carbon rims, then it's worth having a look at Light Bicycle's offerings. 

I've built up 8 different rims in the past few years, mostly aluminum rims, and the overall quality and strength of the light bicycle carbon rims was really impressive. They were the easiest wheels to build because they started out so round to begin with, and after 3,000 miles they have been flawless. 

The ones I went with were 35mm deep and SUPER wide. They compare to something like the new Force Al33 or the Kinlin CX31, but the built-up set is a good 100 to 200 grams lighter than those aluminum rims. I have two sets of the kinlins and they are GREAT wheels at any price, but especially for the money. But the carbon rims are lighter and feel a bit more solid/stiff/planted underneath me (might be in my head).


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Not to beat this thing to death, but as it happens we have a pair of recently-acquired Light Bicycle 55mm rims in house. We like to stay in touch with what's out there, and also to be able to somewhat readily identify who's using what sources, both to produce their own rims and as rebranded open molds. Weights are consistent at 513g each, which is about 15g more than an Al33, and they are equivalently stiff to an Al33. We can take a really good guess that the aerodynamics are functionally equal. A 36mm LB rim would be 450g, which is of course matched by HED and Easton rims. 

Before too long we will take it to our torture test track, where I fully expect it to warp. The torture test is demanding, but it's easily replicated in real world conditions, and of course you continue to see warped carbon rims all the time. 

Again, anyone's individual experience may vary, but the aggregate picture still demonstrably reinforces our stated position. So it really just boils down to aesthetics.


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## stevoo (Oct 26, 2011)

I know this can be a passionate subject for some but here it is anyway.

I too have built up a couple pairs of wheels using LB carbon rims.
Going on a few thousand miles now and all is good.
Quality seems quite good.
They built up super easy.
Been lasting better than other name brand rims I have used in the past.

Just a data point to consider.


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

November Dave said:


> Not to beat this thing to death, but as it happens we have a pair of recently-acquired Light Bicycle 55mm rims in house. We like to stay in touch with what's out there, and also to be able to somewhat readily identify who's using what sources, both to produce their own rims and as rebranded open molds. Weights are consistent at 513g each, which is about 15g more than an Al33, and they are equivalently stiff to an Al33. We can take a really good guess that the aerodynamics are functionally equal. A 36mm LB rim would be 450g,


Not disagreeing at all, but just for informational purposes: my LB clincher rims are 35mm deep and they weighed 433 grams on my scale when I received them.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks. Just going off their specs for current wide rims. They show a 21 internal 36mm deep at 440 (misread it as 450 earlier) and an 18 internal 35mm deep at 435. Still comparable to a HED or Easton at 450+/-. It's probably stunningly obvious which of those choices I'd rather see people on if that's their desired weight mark, the only advantage I see to carbon there is aesthetics and the disadvantages I see are numerous, but I'm only here to share what I know and not to harangue anyone for a particular decision.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

coachboyd said:


>


Very nice!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Srode said:


> A set of Enve's can be had for about $2500.


Interesting...on their site it says 'starting at $2900.00'.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> Interesting...on their site it says 'starting at $2900.00'.


Fairwheel has some with boutique type hubs.... $2651.. so it's possible if you search hard enough.


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## rtalain (Dec 29, 2009)

I used this guide last year when I upgraded my Synapse from the stock disc wheels. The carbon section is towards the bottom. The guy really does his research and I went with his "Best Value" choice (Fulcrum Racing Quattro Carbon Disc) and have no complaints. Even if you don't go with his recommendations, you'll likely learn something from his evaluation of the different brands.

https://intheknowcycling.com/2016/02/21/best-wheels-for-disc-brake-road-bikes-2016/


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Keoki said:


> They should sell it for $5 because Mavic products suck a$$. lol


technically that is incorrect


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

spdntrxi said:


> technically that is incorrect


No, he was correct. Mavic wheels suck. 


spdntrxi said:


> Fairwheel has some with boutique type hubs.... $2651.. so it's possible if you search hard enough.


Those aren't "Enve wheels", they're Fairwheel wheels that happen to have Enve rims. You should understand the difference.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> No, he was correct. Mavic wheels suck.
> 
> 
> Those aren't "Enve wheels", they're Fairwheel wheels that happen to have Enve rims. You should understand the difference.


I know what Keoki meant.. not sure you do ?
"enve wheels" please word games... I expect better from someone like you. Maybe you should understand the difference.

If you wanna go that far.. there is no such thing since the spokes are not labeled/branded "ENVE"


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

spdntrxi said:


> technically that is incorrect





spdntrxi said:


> Fairwheel has some with boutique type hubs.... $2651.. so it's possible if you search hard enough.





spdntrxi said:


> I know what Keoki meant.. not sure you do ?
> "enve wheels" please word games... I expect better from someone like you. Maybe you should understand the difference.
> 
> If you wanna go that far.. there is no such thing since the spokes are not labeled/branded "ENVE"


They're built by Enve using their rims. Therefore Enve wheels. I'm pretty sure Fairwheel doesn't advertise their wheels as 'Enve Wheels'. I'm quite sure that Enve would have something to say if they did.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

word games... got no time for those.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

spdntrxi said:


> word games... got no time for those.


cxwrench is perpetually on the rag; you should know that by now.


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## tinball (Sep 24, 2014)

Notvintage said:


> cxwrench is perpetually on the rag; you should know that by now.


I don't know. I'm with cxwrench on this. I don't call my wheels from November AFORCE wheels just because I have AFORCE rims. They are November wheels with AFORCE rims. Just like those are Fairwheel wheels using ENVE rims. 

A wheel is more than just a rim. Is my bike a SRAM bike because I use SRAM components?

Words or semantics are import here since it also who is responsible for the wheels. You wouldn't go directly to ENVE if those wheels had an issue. You would go to Fairwheel who would be the first in line to address your issues. ESPECIALLY if you had an issue that was for something other the the rim only. ENVE would probably tell you to go to Fairwheel and wash their hands of your issue if you went to them with a problem with the hub or something else. And they would be right since the are not their wheels per se - just their rims. 

If the wheels were ENVE wheels built by ENVE, then ENVE would be who you would contact for any issue with the wheels be it build quality, hub, spokes, etc.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

You are need to ask the op what he meant then?
He says Enve 
He says Enve wheels
He mentions even just find rims at one point.... 
point is one does not have to spend 3k to get Enve


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## tinball (Sep 24, 2014)

spdntrxi said:


> You are need to ask the op what he meant then?
> He says Enve
> He says Enve wheels
> He mentions even just find rims at one point....
> point is one does not have to spend 3k to get Enve


I wasn't replying to the OP even though it's related. Just commenting on the discussion about whether wheels built using a particular brand's rim by someone else we considered that brand's wheels. Still important to differentiate even if you don't believe it is.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

November Dave said:


> We regularly measure alloy rims that are comparably stiff to carbon ones, and have seen rims where weight and stiffness were both markedly in favor of an equally aerodynamic carbon rim.


Can you expand on this? My (considerably narrower) experience with carbon and alloy is closer to this guy's: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dkuaNX2zEs


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

alexdi said:


> Can you expand on this? My (considerably narrower) experience with carbon and alloy is closer to this guy's:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dkuaNX2zEs


Not to one up you. . .but I am totally going to one up you. ha ha :-D
Yes, carbon rims are a lot stronger and stiffer than alloy rims. This one finally cracked under 1400 pounds of pressure!

https://www.facebook.com/boydcycling/videos/1245030825557880/


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

coachboyd said:


> Not to one up you. . .but I am totally going to one up you. ha ha :-D
> Yes, carbon rims are a lot stronger and stiffer than alloy rims. This one finally cracked under 1400 pounds of pressure!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/boydcycling/videos/1245030825557880/


Pretty wild. Any chance you can post the force/deflection curves for the rim alone and the built wheel? I'd be equally keen to see same for a typical alloy rim.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

It wasn't actually myself who did the test. It was Bill Mould who did it, and I am not sure what data he provided. I do know that he also tested a fully built wheel and that one held on for more than 1600 pounds of force before cracking.

I should send him some alloy rims to test like this.

We also do a lot of lateral testing, where a rim is held parallel to the ground, secured on one end and then a set weight is pushing down on the rim. Measurements are taken on how much lateral deflection occurs.

Here's a link to the testing of that, and this one is actually done on 100% of the rims as it helps to catch if there's any layup issues or weak spots that would prevent a wheel from being built properly.

https://streamable.com/c6g7t


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## ssonixx (Aug 29, 2014)

November Dave said:


> Not to beat this thing to death, but as it happens we have a pair of recently-acquired Light Bicycle 55mm rims in house.
> 
> Before too long we will take it to our torture test track, where I fully expect it to warp.


Curious when you will have some results from your testing?

Thanks in advance.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Those tests are a lot like me at a dinner party - charming and interesting, but unfortunately irrelevant. Wheels don't load that way, they certainly don't fail that way, and of course you have spokes to counteract the loads seen in those tests. Nonetheless, hoop strength is likely to favor a carbon rim well more often than not. But also notice that my comment regards stiffness, and weight. 

Weight is easy enough to consider. To measure weight in context of aerodynamics you need to have an aerodynamics test. A top of mind one for me is that a Kinlin 31, an AForce Al33, and a Zipp 303 are all aerodynamically equivalent. The Kinlin and AForce weigh just about the same (~500g) while the Zipp weighs about 20g more. Another example is that the HED Belgium+ and and FLO 30 are equivalent in the aero category, but the HED weighs 465g while the FLO weighs 575g. Those are both aluminum rims, but they illustrate the point. People often conflate weight and aerodynamics, which is a mistake.

The stiffness testing that we do looks more like what's described in this old blog post here. We also do deflection testing of unbuilt rims (link), which is an excellent indicator of how a wheel is going to do in the test in the link. And then there is always the build test, which just squeezing neighbor spokes in the stand and seeing how much the wheel deflects - it's imprecise, but useful and instructive to a trained wheel builder. 

In these lateral stiffness tests, carbon doesn't hold any clear advantage. Name brand carbon rims have been beaten by rims like Kinlin XC279. 

The point is that people often dogmatically express that a carbon wheel will _always_ be stiffer than an alloy of similar depth and width, and that isn't accurate.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

These kind tests are for our own internal use, and this particular test is low on the priority chart (and fairly high on the pain in the butt chart - the test track is 200 miles away from the shop). Sorry.


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## stevoo (Oct 26, 2011)

November Dave 

What kind of testing do you perform to cause warping of the rim?

I assume rim brake heat testing?

The only bikes I run carbon rims on are my disc brake bikes due to carbon rims challenges and opportunities in regards to brake track heat. I also ride in the rain so that also guides my choices.

So as not to spark a disc vs rim brake war I also own, love and ride rim brake bikes too. They serve me well. I have specific bikes set up for my intended uses and hope rim and disc can coexist for many years. I am liking the carbon rims so far on the disc bikes though.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

I just got a test report back from the lab for braking forces. I like to test in this manner as you can show the temperature through the whole test and you can directly compare one rim to another under the same conditions.

It's interesting to see that the longer the test goes on, the lower the temperature. After almost 11 minutes the test was stopped.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Simple test - Ride down big huge hill from a set start point at speed "A", then brake to speed "B" by using only the rear brake, and hold speed B by using only rear brake until rim fails. They all do, it's just a question of when. 

When we do these, and we're not on like a constant mission with this - it's something that happens occasionally, it's just measure the rim to see how it's molded, build it up and see how it builds and if it seems stable, then stress the spoke holes (we've seen plenty of failures there), and if it lives through that then we'll do the hill test when there's a good opportunity. We don't do any kind of horizontal sampling, we've got no impetus to do that. We just like to have an idea of who's selling what kind of products. 

We have not tested any current Boyd products, to be clear. I actually keep meaning to inquire about selling their alloy rims because we get a few inquiries about them and they get good reviews. But we're just plain done with selling carbon clinchers. In theory, we'll build carbon tubulars (people like them for cross), and we would possibly be open to a compelling and stunning hookless bead disc brake rim if it met a laundry list of criteria that none are likely to hit.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

November Dave said:


> Simple test - Ride down big huge hill from a set start point at speed "A", then brake to speed "B" by using only the rear brake, and hold speed B by using only rear brake until rim fails.


Sure beats testing carbon components by colliding with cars.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bumpride said:


> I agree with Lombard. I think Bontrager might have coined that famous saying.


Possibly. But it appears the wheels in his namesake use mostly the last two criteria.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

TDFbound said:


> I would like to be able to buy just the rims as I would like to set up this pair of wheels with the Onyx road disc hubs. I know they are heavier but I will get more enjoyment over a lighter noisier hub.


If you want a quiet freehub, you can't do much better than a pair of Shimano Dura-Aces. They aren't totally silent like Onyx or Stealth, but once you're up to speed, wind noise will mostly drown it out. The sound is far from annoying the way a DT, Mavic or CK hub is.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> If you want a quiet freehub, you can't do much better than a pair of Shimano Dura-Aces. They aren't totally silent like Onyx or Stealth, but once you're up to speed, wind noise will mostly drown it out. The sound is far from annoying the way a DT, Mavic or CK hub is.


I have a pair of dt240s and a couple of sets of CKs. These two things do not compare. The DTs are totally obnoxious in the noise department. The Kings have their unique sound characteristic, but it is of the chart low on the volume department compared to the DTs. 

My WIs are similar to the Kings. Quiet.

My 9000 C24s might be a little quieter, than those two, but not by much. The DT240s are much louder.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> I have a pair of dt240s and a couple of sets of CKs. These two things do not compare. The DTs are totally obnoxious in the noise department. The Kings have their unique sound characteristic, but it is of the chart low on the volume department compared to the DTs.
> 
> My WIs are similar to the Kings. Quiet.
> 
> My 9000 C24s might be a little quieter, than those two, but not by much. The DT240s are much louder.


Maybe it depends on the model of CK. The ones I've heard are quite noisy. The sound is definitely different than that of a DT. DT's sound like cicadas. CK's sound like a swarm of bees.


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