# tougher climb than Fiddlers Elbow in NJ?



## Ken Roberts

I tried a new candidate for toughest climb on asphalt in the state of New Jersey: 
Breakneck -- way up north near Vernon [ see map ]

Thanks to David G for suggesting it to me. 
Felt at least as tough as the notorious Fiddlers Elbow climb (way out west between Belvidere + Washington - see map). But that was on a hot day in full sun, and my first time trying it, so might not feel quite so hard a second or third time on a cooler cloudier day. (Fiddlers also feels pretty overwhelming to most people their first time). Somebody who's done both several times could give a better opinion.Also very helpful is if somebody has some accurate elevation : distance measurements for Breakneck they could post here or send my by Private Message. By "accurate" I'm thinking like using a (expensive) GPS with a barometric altimeter, or a non-GPS bicycle cyclometer with altimeter (not from topo software, and not from a GPS lacking a barometric altimeter, because GPS units generally do not measure altitude really accurately).​I _like_ Fiddlers Elbow better than Breakneck, because I did not like the sharp curve in the midst of the steepest section on Breakneck Rd, and seemed like lots more car traffic than Fiddlers -- so more car drivers that might not see me as they come around that corner.The climbing felt so hard right then, I was thinking about what if I fell off my bike there and a car came around the corner while I was lying on the pavement still trying to get up.Also I like it that Fiddlers has much more shade. But one way they're the same is that their asphalt has coarser stones than most New Jersey roads, so the climbing requires more effort than you'd estimate from knowing the steepness grade. For now I've put them on the steep climbs of NJ list in a tie for 1st.

details: I got the maximum amount of climbing by starting below Breakneck Rd, first on Vernon Crossing (rt 644), then rt 515, which joins rt 94 for a short ways, then continue on rt 515 south (becomes Stockholm Rd), then in the midst of a steep-ish climbing section, I made a left turn (across traffic) onto Breakneck Rd going east -- which starts moderate, feels like a relief from rt 515. Then it gets real steep, then a little less steep, then really really steep. Warning sign at the top says 25% grade. (though I kinda doubt it's 25% for more than a short section) -- I'd easily believe there's a sustained section at least 20% grade, and lower down a section at least 16% grade.

Feeling lucky to have made it to the top, I didn't want to go back down a road that steep, so instead I rode south along the Wawayanda ridge on rt 638, then turned right onto rt 515 north back down to Vernon (rt 515 had a warning sign for 17% grade) -- to me it felt like the sustained steepness on 515 was more like 13%, which was plenty thrilling enough to go down.

There are some other interesting climbs around Vernon, connected by some pleasant, pretty roads [see report], I did about five of them as warmups for Breakneck, one afterward (which hurt).

Ken


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## Bry03cobra

Hello
Do you do the Bucks county covered bridge ride in PA? Have done that, just wondering how that compaires to the hills you describe. Also have you ever riden up the manyunk wall in philly. If so, how does that compair to fiddlers elbow. I'm a little overweight, but strong. Tend to enjoy short steep out of the saddle stuff. But on extremely long climbs where ya sit and spin, my extra poundage beats me up. 
Bryan


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## Ken Roberts

Bry03cobra said:


> Do you do the Bucks county covered bridge ride in PA? Have done that, just wondering how that compaires to the hills you describe.


I have no clue what the route is or what hills it goes up. Organized events for general riders that hope to have more than 0.01% of participants ever do them again stay away from hills like Fiddlers or Breakneck. Even the "Hillier Than Thou" event that advertises its hilliness makes clear which of its courses includes Fiddlers, so that only riders who want try it will choose it. 

If an event does not _advertise_ its hilliness, then it doesn't have anything remotely like Fiddlers or Breakneck.


Bry03cobra said:


> Manayunk wall in Philadelphia.


If you mean Leverington St . . . 
it's just not in the same league with Breakneck or Fiddlers. Near as I can tell Leverington street has less than 100 vertical ft at 10% steepness grade. Some people throw around "17% grade" for Manayunk, but they must mean for less than half a block somewhere along the way, or maybe it's for a 10-feet long hump somewhere on it. (Race course organizers and mainstream media commentators love to over-hype the steepness of roads.)

Compare against Fiddlers Elbow with over 500 vertical feet at more than 12% grade, including more than 100 vertical feet at 20% steepness grade. (the Manayunk "Wall" has less sustained steepness than Roxburg Hill, which is just the little warmup below the start of Fiddlers Elbows Rd.)

Compare against Breakneck, which goes on for 430 vertical feet averaging over 14% grade, which is ridiculously steep. The entire Leverington St hill in Manayunk is less than 300 feet, including all the gentler sections.

Eastern PA does have some serious paved-road hills that at least get into the same league with the steep hills of NJ, but not on the streets of Philadelphia. (? though maybe some dirt/gravel paths around Wissahickon creek ?)

Ken


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## Bry03cobra

Ken,
Sounds like you mountain biked at wissihiccon.....There a a huge climb on the covered bridge ride. It right across the delaware from frenchtown. Long but grade not too much. If you look up the ride, maybe you will be able to see if some of the climbs are compairable. I'm thinking of doing the hillier ride, want to get an idea if how it compaires to the PA climbs. Funny story about the climb I mentioned above. Its probably 2-3 miles long, during the 06 ride I was climbing with a friend, Geoff. He is much lighter than me, good climber. He is pacing me, probably spinning at around 12 mph, I was really working hard. On our wheel we heard 2 younger females chatting.....general girl stuff. I was thinking "can't let 2 chicks pass me". Well that thought lasted a min longer. Looked over to Geoff, "I gotta back off". The 2 girls then pass......... in full Advil/chapstick team kits. Turns out they were a couple local female pros.....I didn't feel so bad.
Bryan


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## goldsbar

Bry03cobra said:


> Hello
> Do you do the Bucks county covered bridge ride in PA? Have done that, just wondering how that compaires to the hills you describe. Also have you ever riden up the manyunk wall in philly. If so, how does that compair to fiddlers elbow. I'm a little overweight, but strong. Tend to enjoy short steep out of the saddle stuff. But on extremely long climbs where ya sit and spin, my extra poundage beats me up.
> Bryan


Sorry, but these hills are nothing compared to Fiddlers, Breakneck (only been down but get the idea), or many other hills in the region. The bridge ride has one fairly steep hill but it's really not that bad. Many decent club riders **walk** up Fiddlers.


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## Ken Roberts

goldsbar said:


> Many decent club riders **walk** up Fiddlers.


Yes I remember the first time I encountered Fiddlers was on a club ride that was advertised as hilly -- 13 athletic riders that I was proud to more or less keep up with. Only _one_ made it to the top of Fiddlers still pedaling.

Another time I was jogging up Fiddlers ... two riders slowly passing me. I said, "Save your strength, it's real steep." One replied, "We climbed Mt Mitchell. It's ten times bigger than this." A couple of minutes later I passed them, walking with their bikes.



goldsbar said:


> Sorry, but these hills are nothing compared to Fiddlers, Breakneck (only been down but get the idea), or many other hills in the region. The bridge ride has one fairly steep hill but it's really not that bad.


Funny thing is that one of the steeper hills I know of in Bucks county PA is right next to a covered bridge: Uhlerstown Hill Rd - just across the river from New Jersey [map]. But if they included that one in any normal public riding event, there would be _injuries_. The problem I see with Uhlerstown is that you come around the corner and you're _in_ the steep -- there's no time to decide about it. Then you either make it pedaling to the top -- or successfully get out of your pedals in the midst of the steepest hill you've ever seen -- or fall over.

Ken


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## Bry03cobra

I looked up the ride, looks like thats one of the bridges the ride goes through. here is a link to the ride elevation chart.

http://www.cbbikeclub.org/?body=covered_bridge_profiles


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## Terex

Ken Roberts said:


> Funny thing is that one of the steeper hills I know of in Bucks county PA is right next to a covered bridge: Uhlerstown Hill Rd - just across the river from New Jersey. But if they included that one in any normal public riding event, there would be _injuries_. The problem I see with Uhlerstown is that you come around the corner and you're _in_ the steep -- there's no time to decide about it. Then you either make it pedaling to the top -- or successfully get out of your pedals in the midst of the steepest hill you've ever seen -- or fall over.


The Covered Bridge Ride is pretty easy, depending on how fast you do it. :wink: 

Uhlerstown is not on that ride. As Ken notes, it would be littered with bodies if it was.


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## merckxman

*Great List*



Ken Roberts said:


> IFor now I've put them on the steep climbs of NJ list in a tie for 1st.
> 
> I can go up Adamic and Middle Valley but have been struggling up, and defeated, by Iron Bridge Road just the other day. When things get steep I tend to sit more than stand and you really need to stand on Iron Bridge, well at least I did as when I was seated my front wheel came off a couple of times.


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## jhamlin38

Ken
just read your climbing research, and find it outstanding. I can't imagine a more thorough and informative result of cycling in any area. compliments.


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## Ken Roberts

merckxman said:


> When things get steep I tend to sit more than stand and you really need to stand on Iron Bridge, well at least I did as when I was seated my front wheel came off a couple of times.


Yes I tried climbing Iron Bridge again and I noticed my front wheel coming up off the ground a couple of times too.

When things get steep I tend to stand -- but in this case I thought I'd try sitting the whole way, and I made it OK. (I've been forcing myself to sit more because I have this dream of climbing Monte Zoncolan or Passo Mortirolo, and those notorious steep climbs are so long that I'm thinking I can't rely on standing much, or my legs would burn out).

Then I tried pedaling seated up Ludlow Station (right next to Iron Bridge and I think a little steeper), and leaning my shoulders more forward seemed to keep the front wheel on the ground. 

Fiddlers -- Then I felt bold, went over to Fiddlers Elbow and made it all the way up that sitting -- which I never imagined I could do. But definitely my front wheel was coming off the ground a little several times in the steepest section, and leaning my shoulders forward didn't really stop it. 

I think the front wheel comes up off the ground in very steep climbs because of the acceleration needed to regain speed after the "dead spot" in the pedaling stroke cycle. Maybe some up-down _move_ with the upper body -- _timed_ just right -- might help keep the front wheel down?

Ken


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## DrSmile

Toughest climb I've ridden is on Millbrook-Flatbrook road from Millbrook going towards Blairstown. I don't think it's the one the list because it's over 600 feet of vertical climb, and it's brutally steep. What's worse is that if you get onto the climb via Flatbrookville, you need to go up another massive 500 foot climb before it.


NM I see it's listed as #3... but I will point out that pretty much the entire climb is relentless, there is NO flat section.


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## Ken Roberts

DrSmile said:


> Toughest climb I've ridden is on Millbrook-Flatbrook road from Millbrook going towards Blairstown. I don't think it's the one the list because it's over 600 feet of vertical climb, and it's brutally steep. What's worse is that if you get onto the climb via Flatbrookville, you need to go up another massive 500 foot climb before it.


Yes that climb looks like yet another tough one I never heard of before -- in a part of the state I don't get to very often -- so thanks a lot for suggesting it. I put it on my list of steep NJ climbs at #7.I tried steepness calculations from three different data sources and got sorta different answers -- I might move it higher on the list after I actually get to try it myself -- which might not be soon.​I'm getting it as having a total climb of 635 vertical feet, including a section with 450 vertical feet at 13.5% or more -- pretty impressive.

I also added to the list two other climbs which had sections steeper than 10% grade from sorta that same road around Flatbrookville and Millbrook village.

Ken


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## DrSmile

I think it's accurate to describe that hill as the longest steep climb in the state. FYI I went to Boulder this spring and rode up two 4500 ft vertical climbs to over 9500 feet and I swear the Millbrook climbs are harder when combined.


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## bothfeet

Dr Smiley & Ken
you know I drive up and down these hills near Millbrook all the time and have always wondered how they stack up for biking...not that I'm anywhere near being able to myself. Thanks for the good info


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## Ken Roberts

DrSmile said:


> I think it's accurate to describe that hill as the longest steep climb in the state.


I think Rt 602 south from Millbrook village toward Blairstown is tied with Breakneck as having the longest section at 12% average grade -- around 590 vertical feet.(But there's other ways to define "longest steep climb", and 602 Millbrook Rd isn't really in contention for any of the other similar definitions, e.g. 7% 10% 14% 16%)​I got to try it recently [map], and what struck me most was the quiet, remote atmosphere of the area around the climb -- by Walpack Center and Millbrook village. It's not so easy to get there, and I think a key reason for going there would be to do more riding in that atmosphere, not just a couple of steep climbs.

The climb itself seemed very sustained, pretty evenly graded -- on rather smooth asphalt. Great training hill, if it were somewhere near where I usually ride. The other two climbs nearby between Millbrook village and the Flat Brook along rt 615 were nice warmups (though the surface on the west side was somewhat eroded).

The gentler roads along the valleys around there had mostly good asphalt -- so maybe could put the sequence two climbs going southeast and south from the Flat Brook rt 615 into a longer loop. But I don't know the roads well enough to say what a good loop would be. Lots of the roads around there _not_ along the valleys are rough dirt.And be sure to bring a good map and somebody with good navigational skills -- the signs out there along the roads did not match the names on any maps I've got -- so I got around by the "shape" of the roads and intersections.​


DrSmile said:


> I went to Boulder this spring and rode up two 4500 ft vertical climbs to over 9500 feet and I swear the Millbrook climbs are harder when combined.


That's a good point, that lots of places with a big _reputation_ for climbs are not as tough as New Jersey. Like that New York Times guy a couple of months ago writing about training for "The Climb": whether he could "succeed" on Tourmalet (a long climb over in southern France, but not as steep as Millbrook 602 south). Seemed like he had no clue how tough are some of the climbs and groups of climbs close by him in New Jersey.

Now that you've tested yourself in Colorado, maybe it's time to test yourself in New Jersey: Breakneck is both longer than Millbrook and steeper than Millbrook. Fiddlers Elbow might or might not be longer (depends on how you measure), but it is tougher.

Ken


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## Ken Roberts

more to Breakneck than I thought. I found another climbing section at the top, which adds another 100 vertical feet to its total rise.
Then I found a very different (very steep) climb right next to it: Hidden Valley.

After some warmups, I took another shot at Breakneck (up north in Vernon valley) [map]. As I hoped, it didn't seem as overwhelming as my first time a few weeks ago. Not as hot either. To my great surprise, I made it all the way to the top pedaling without any standing.(It's not that I'm a fast rider or any sort of racer -- I've just gotten very strong at keeping the pedals turning at a slow cadence like 40 rpm.)​Then at the top I tried turning Right on Tahama Rd, soon another Right on Abricada Rd, and more steep climbing (on somewhat eroded pavement) -- finally I stopped at a dirt road intersection with Accomac Rd. Then I explored some more pleasant roads and pretty lakes up on the Highland Lakes plateau. And I climbed Breakneck again, this time as a personal time trial, and I did lots of standing for that.

I thought I was done, then I got the idea of checking out the Hidden Valley ski resort, which is partway up on Breakneck Rd. And I found roads that goes way around the west and south side of the ski trails -- first Curtis Dr almost to its end, then left on Hidden Valley Dr. Interesting variety of scenes and climbs -- including four very steep sections (like 15% or more). The start of the first one is plenty intimidating (less than a quarter mile off Breakneck Rd if you just want to look).

Hidden Valley goes higher than Breakneck, and if you start on different roads way down on the floor of the valley, from north of Vernon at the low point on Vernon Cross rd (rt 644), it's about 1050 vertical feet of climbing to the top -- which I believe makes ...

Hidden Valley the longest climb in New Jersey which has an average steepness grade over 7%.

Ken


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## Terex

I rode Millbrook on Saturday, leaving from Belvedere. I thought it was a very pleasant climb - smooth road, very scenic. But the terrific place to ride is the downhill on Old Mine Rd./Rt. 606, along the Delaware to the Gap. I touched just under 55 mph, and I was riding the brakes! We saw a mother bear and two cubs on the hill to the left at one point. Great, great mostly downhill ride through the forest.

And if you want a climb, I've got one for you. Godfrey Ridge Rd. across the river in PA. A little over 2 mi. and 10000 ft. of climbing. LONG sections over 10%, but nothing super steep. The Sixer's basketball camp is on the right, going up hill. We got there via Cherry Valley Rd.


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## Ken Roberts

Terex said:


> I rode Millbrook on Saturday, leaving from Belvedere. I thought it was a very pleasant climb - smooth road, very scenic. But the terrific place to ride is the downhill on Old Mine Rd./Rt. 606, along the Delaware to the Gap. I touched just under 55 mph, and I was riding the brakes! We saw a mother bear and two cubs on the hill to the left at one point. Great, great mostly downhill ride through the forest.


Yes seemed like a pleasant area with lots of miles thru quiet forest. 

55 mph . . . reminds that there's lots of deer who live in that forest - (as in many places where the steep climbs are in New Jersey). I've noticed that deer can leap from hidden in the trees out into the middle of the road with no apparent cause or advance notice. Any guesses about what a _car_ looks like like after it hits a deer at 40 mph?

I started riding differently down hills in the woods after watching an SUV hit a deer while I was on my bike in west NJ a few weeks ago. This collision was _not_ in the woods, so the SUV could see the deer coming and had time to hit the brakes. The vehicle was still drivable, but I could see pieces of it on the road as I rode through.

Ken


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## Terex

Hitting a deer at any speed would not be fun. My buddy hit one at 40 mph. Didn't do too much damage to his Moots, and he was up and riding soon, although a little sore. He understands that he was extremely lucky.

I was last in a line of 6 other riders on this ride. I know that doesn't shield me from deer (or bears!), but they would have seen the others first. Checking my Garmin data, I actually hit the brakes twice to keep it under 55.

I'm riding in Ohio right now. Lot's of deer here too.


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## 2shifter

And if you want a climb, I've got one for you. Godfrey Ridge Rd. across the river in PA. A little over 2 mi. and 10000 ft. of climbing. LONG sections over 10%, but nothing super steep. The Sixer's basketball camp is on the right, going up hill. We got there via Cherry Valley Rd.[/QUOTE]

AKA Rt. 191 from Stroudsburg toward Bangor. I know it's the same hill on account of seeing the Sixers camp sign. Yes, it is quite the ascent, though I believe it is only 1000 or so (not 10000!). You are summiting Blue Mountain. Of the half dozen or so points I've crossed the Blue, it is definitely the most challenging though Hawk Mtn is a bit steeper in spots. I actually came across this climb by semi-accident. It's a good thing the road is in good shape...cause it seems to never end.


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## Terex

10K - wow! That would be a climb! Maybe that volcano in Hawaii? Sorry... :blush2: 

The road is quite smooth with a fairly wide berm. I did manage to pick up a stick into my front brake just past the Sixer's camp. Good thing I was going uphill. It came close to totally jamming the wheel. First time I've done that on a road bike. I'll have to try Hawk Mtn. next time we're up there.

Last weekend we did Sanitorium Rd. near Glen Gardner in NJ and a bunch of other modest climbs through the Califon area. A great area to ride.


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## Terex

Our ride included Pinchers Point Rd. up from Rigelsville today. That's a pretty tough hill. I got a 17.9% data point on my Garmin. The extended stretch of 13%+ was a joy... I run a 39/27 and needed to stand for most of the steeper stuff. We skipped Bloomsbury Hill, but did Rt. 173 to Tunnel Rd., a nice extended climb. Too bad I was cooked from all the riding I did over the last few days. A beautiful day to be out on the bike.


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## levels1069

2shifter said:


> And if you want a climb, I've got one for you. Godfrey Ridge Rd. across the river in PA. A little over 2 mi. and 10000 ft. of climbing. LONG sections over 10%, but nothing super steep. The Sixer's basketball camp is on the right, going up hill. We got there via Cherry Valley Rd.


AKA Rt. 191 from Stroudsburg toward Bangor. I know it's the same hill on account of seeing the Sixers camp sign. Yes, it is quite the ascent, though I believe it is only 1000 or so (not 10000!). You are summiting Blue Mountain. Of the half dozen or so points I've crossed the Blue, it is definitely the most challenging though Hawk Mtn is a bit steeper in spots. I actually came across this climb by semi-accident. It's a good thing the road is in good shape...cause it seems to never end.[/QUOTE]


That climb, to us locals, is affectionately called "Bangor Mountain". We had a Garmin verified 2.8 miles @ 11.9% going up that badboy...our local group ride used to cover that twice over the course of our 55 mile ride, man its rough. 

If you want a (arguably) better climb, try climbing up the backside of Bangor Mountain coming from Bangor into Stroudsburg. It's one of the longer climbs in eastern PA @ 4.5 miles, and is never super steep until the very end. One of my fave climbs in the area

Coming from Del Water Gap down Old Mine Road, when you get to that three way intersection and make a left towards Walpack...you descend that climb down to the creek, man that is BRUTAL. From there down into Milford along Old Mine Road is my favorite 70 mile loop from Stroudsburg


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## Ken Roberts

levels1069 said:


> Rt 191 from Stroudsburg toward Bangor PA . . . That climb, to us locals, is affectionately called "Bangor Mountain". We had a Garmin verified 2.8 miles @ 11.9% going up that badboy


GPS is real easy to use, but keep in mind that the whole GPS satellite system is designed to measure location *not* altitude. So when you use a GPS to try to measure the steepness of hill, you're using suspect data for one of the critical components of the calculation.Unless you've got an expensive GPS which includes a "barometric" altimeter.​By my calculation climbing a steepness grade of 11.9% for 2.8 miles would put you up at an altitude over 1750 feet. But the Blue Mountain ridge around there is only 1500 feet.

Measuring steep curvy roads is tricky no matter how you do it, so I'm glad to see people posting data from more different angles. But using a (non-barometric) GPS does not count as having "verified" the slope measurement -- it's just another potentially flawed attempt. It's another estimate worth knowing about, but it doesn't settle the question.


Terex said:


> Our ride included Pinchers Point Rd. up from Rigelsville today. That's a pretty tough hill. I got a 17.9% data point on my Garmin.


I think GPS data is _especially_ suspect for measuring the slope of a short section of a climb. The satellite data just isn't designed for that. But if the GPS unit specifically says that it has a _barometric_ altimeter, then that can be used (with some calibration) to measure altitude differences (and steepness grade) more reliably and accurately. without relying on the satellites.

Ken


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## Ken Roberts

*NJ preparation for big climbs*

Riding up Breakneck and other steep NJ hills turned out to be real helpful for succeeding on bigger climbs on big trips. A couple of weeks ago I made it up Passo Mortirolo from Mazzo [see on map] -- which some guy named Armstrong is quoted as saying it was the hardest climb of his life. (Hint: My touring bike has different gearing than he used.)

A few days later I climbed up something which lots of people say is even harder (and it felt harder): the west side of Monte Zoncolan from Ovaro + Liariis. See info about it here + here + see where on map.
(Just like in New Jersey, I’m finding it tricky to figure out somebody’s 
steepness numbers -- for too much detail about it, see this discussion)

More than than those tough test-pieces, it was great to feel like lots of the other climbs in Switzerland + Italy were now well within my ability, instead of long survival struggles (some reports + maps)

Sharon was with me for part of the trip and we were able to make it up a couple of steep-ish ones pedaling on our tandem: One which we treasure was . . . 
Madonna di Ghisallo south from Bellagio -- which I found on the Italian Cycling Journal of Merckxman on our NY-NJ forum (He's now blogging + posting photos about riding in NJ + PA + VT). The Ghisallo climb was pretty and interesting -- and not as hard as the official steepness number shown in these photos.

Home from that big Euro climbing, late yesterday afternoon I tried Warrenville Rd (after starting on Valley Rd + Hill Hollow). Felt just as hard as ever. I do like it that our New Jersey climbs feature variety and challenge, instead of length.

Ken


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## ridenfish39

Hey Ken;
I would love to do some of these rides with you. I live to do epic, long road rides with a ton of climbing. I have been up Fiddlers and other climbs in your area with my team, but I dont know the roads myself. I usually start my ride at Bomans Tower in PA (I live in Philly) and go from there. My "training ride" is 58 miles with 5000' of gain, but I will do 100 milers solo. (I ask others to go, but they usually say no way  ) There are some really good climbs around Lake Nockamixon also (Haupts Bridge Road, Saucon Road etc).
I can do Whiteface in 50 minutes, and I have climbed Lincoln Gap in VT(THE steepest road I have ever seen), so I shouldn't hold you back. I race expert in mtb, and have won my fair share of races, but I enjoy doing epic rides more than paying someone to go around in circles. It would be nice to ride with someone else who is into my type of riding.


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## Ken Roberts

I like riding with other people -- including hilly rides in Europe -- like in Italy with Tony from Manhattan back in June - see photos.

One idea is that we could get together in east PA / west NJ on a Saturday in the next few weeks. I know I'm interested in exploring some of the steep climbs on "Morgan Hill" in PA just south of Easton, and I could be interested in having somebody show me some climbs in Bucks county. I'll send you a private message.

Generally the problem around here in NJ-NY-PA is that my weekend riding is already committed to Sharon on our tandem, but few people who want to ride as long as we do also want to ride as slow as we do. Sometimes I can get away mid-week for focus on steep hill climbs -- but usually it comes on very short notice.

Europe: I'm happy to help people plan trips, and happy to meet riders over there. Actually my hematocrit level (for blood oxygen transport) is not very high, so even with serious training I'm slower climbing than most riders who take hill-climbing seriously. It's not often that I pass anybody while riding up a big hill in the Alps, except less-serious riders who are taking a mountain bike up a road climb.

There's lots of different styles and strategies for riding in Europe. The more closely somebody wants to coordinate their trip with me, the more it has to be done like my style -- and my strategy is to organize my trips in Europe the same way I do my riding in NJ-NY-PA: 
* car with a rear rike to carry our bike(s) 
* cell phones to coordinate the fact that realistically we're not going to be riding the same roads all the time.
* no itinerary, just every evening check the weather and decide where to ride the next day.
* not necessarily ride every day -- there's lots of fun non-riding things to do in Europe.

For some reason lots of Americans who go to Europe feel they should adopt a completely different approach to riding than they do around here. My approach is to organize my riding just like local serious European road bicyclists -- which is pretty much like how most of us do it around here. 

But if somebody wants to try some different strategy for their overall trip and we would just meet together for a day or two or three, that's fine too.

So I'm happy to explore ideas for Europe -- and let's try for something in eastern PA some Saturday soon. I just sent you a PM about it.

Ken


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## bmp956

Just reading about these climbs has put me in oxygen debt:blush2: Which leads me to my question:

What gearing are you guys running? I've got 2 bikes that are compacts, with 12x27 cogs, and 1 that's a triple. I do organized century rides just about every weekend, but you know how that goes around here. Fortunately a lot have been over in Pa. in Bucks and Montgomery counties, so there have been a few challenges to be had. But nothing like the "Where's my ropes and pickax" kinda climbs you've described here.

I'm just wondering if it's worth the ride for me, coming from Toms River, cause while I do love a challenge, it's a long ride in the car just to end up taking my bike for a walk. If you're doing these climbs on 53x39, well that's enough to tell me that these are probably beyond my abilities at the present time. I know from the occasional skiing trip (ya know, before global warming when it used to actually snow here in Jersey ) that some of those roads by Vernon are crazy steep and blind curves abound.

And doing those on a tandem? Wow!


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## Ken Roberts

bmp956 said:


> I'm just wondering if it's worth the ride for me, coming from Toms River, cause while I do love a challenge, it's a long ride in the car just to end up taking my bike for a walk.


I think if you go to the Montana + Musconetcong ridge area near Washington + Phillipsburg 
like on this map
it could be worth it just because it's one of the most beautiful riding areas in New Jersey even apart doing the steepest climbs - (try riding along the Musconetcong River and Pohatcong Creek, and a bit of the Delaware River). Here is a description of the steeper climbs.
If looking for climbs _less_ steep to get into first, could try Millbrook Rd (not highlighted) in the center top of that map. Generally the roads on the south sides of those ridges are less steep than the north side, and the ridge in the middle between Rt 57 and the Musconetcong River has smaller climbs (and prettier views?) than the bigger ridges south of the Musconetcong River and north of Rt 57. Riding around on the top of the Montana ridge (north of rt 57 at the top of the Millbrook Rd climb) is also pretty. 



bmp956 said:


> What gearing are you guys running?


I'm not sure how knowing somebody else's gears helps. Like the Euro pro racers use different gears and climb about twice as fast as me, but when I'm in Europe I ride the same hills which are used in the Tour de France and Giro d'Italia races. My lowest gear for my NJ climbing is 39 chainring in front and 26 cog in back. But I feel confident that there are some NJ riders who could get up the steepest climbs around with 42 in front and 19 in back (not that that would be the most _effective_ gearing for them). If you're not sure, bring your triple chainrings the first time. Having really low gears makes a big difference.

Ken


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## Ken Roberts

Out riding in the warm weather, I rode up Breakneck again a couple of times -- after warm-up climbs on some other steep hills around Vernon NJ. I found a way to ride around between 6 very steep climbs around there - (with little use of high-speed high-traffic Rt 94). Here's a
map of steep climbs around Vernon + Breakneck
also I've now listed my NJ steep climbs separately for each county, so like here's a list of 
Sussex county steep climbs

I also tried measuring the steepness of Breakneck and some other climbs by using a special GPS unit with a barometric altimeter (because normal GPS units are not very accurate for altitude, and thus not accurate for steepness). I took four different data track sets for Breakneck. When I looked at each one individually it looked excellent: complete coverage of the whole climb, no funny jumps or spikes in elevation -- felt like at last by using a special GPS, I now had "the truth" about steepness.

But when I compared the steepness grades I calculated from two different track data sets, I got different grade numbers for some of the segments of the climb. Like one data set might show 14.2% grade, another one 15.8%. (Same sort of thing on other climbs where I captured GPS multiple data sets). 
Not like the two data sets are telling a totallly different story (since both 14.2 and 15.8% are very steep) -- but not leaving me the comfort of feeling that I know "the truth".And not making me optimistic that using a barometric altimeter will "settle" the question of whether Breakneck is harder than Fiddlers Elbow.​My advice: before believing what your GPS tells you about steepness, try it again two more times on the same hill, and try downhill as well as uphill.

Ken


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## Ken Roberts

*comparing numbers Breakneck vs Fiddlers Elbow*

Over the weekend I got to visit Fiddlers Elbow and gathered some track data sets using my GPS unit with barometric altimeter.The data from it had the usual kinds of messiness you get with data measured from the real physical world (as they did for Breakneck). I ended up with four reasonable track data sets for each of Breakneck and Fiddlers (and I've also looked at data for both from PC-based topo software and websites like Google Earth and some bicycling websites).​Breakneck versus Fiddlers: 
* Fiddlers is a little steeper in its steepest section.
* Breakneck is a little steeper in the longer section that leads up to and includes the steepest.
* there's other factors to consider. 

So I guess if you want the bragging rights to conquering the toughest paved hill in New Jersey, you have to climb both.

*steepest section*: the calculations from the Fiddlers data sets came in around 20-21% grade for about 130 vertical feet. Breakneck data sets were around 19-20% for about 120 vert ft. 

*longer section* containing steepest: the calculations from the Breakneck data sets gave around 15% for about 340 vertical ft (though data from some topo websites + software came to more like 16%). Calculations from Fiddlers data sets gave around mid-13% for about 450 vert ft (though data from some topo websites or software came to 14%)

*first time*: The steepest section of Fiddlers as positioned to take you by surprise (at least it surprised me my first time). But then you see what it is and make a decision: just give up and walk, or go for it. But on Breakneck the steepest section goes directly into a curve to the right which you can't see around, so when you "go for it", you can't know yet how big "it" is. Having cars on the road with you adds seriousness to the decision and seriousness to the lack of knowledge about what's around that curve.

*climbs nearby*: If you're looking for more of that (ridiculous) 18-22% stuff, right next to Breakneck there's Hidden Valley which contains four other super-steep shots. The region around Fiddlers has lots of interesting steep climbs, but not much else in that steepness range -- except maybe a little section on Wester-Decker.

Ken


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