# Carbon tubular vs Carbon clincher - Overheating issues



## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

I am about to buy a set of Carbon 50mm wheels mainly for racing purposes. Thinking about some Yishun's. I am 90kg's in weight.

At the moment, I'm swinging towards tubular. Never owned tubular's before. But they appear to be lighter than clincher, the tyres aren't too much more expensive either. I'm not the most confident bike handler in the world and no doubt brake a bit more often than I should, especially on descents. 

I've heard about some overheating issues with Carbon clinchers where the bead section becomes overheated and then warp. Are there any such issues in tubulars, other than perhaps the glue melting and the wheel rolling off? 

Thanks in advance


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Hi, I too am like you, 92kg, and same as you, not the worlds greatest bike handler. I too wonder about down hill braking. What I have been told though is, carbon tubulars versus carbon clinchers are much better value for money, in that you have to spend up to get a good carbon clincher set otherwise your best to stick to good alloy clincher, or go carbon tubular.
Of course this is all price dependant.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

Thanks. I have a good set of alloy clinchers 44mm. But the wheels weigh in at close to 1900gms for the pair. I'd prefer getting 50mm tubular carbons (if better than clinchers) at about 1300 to 1400gms. Surely it should make a little difference while climbing. Just hoping they won't warp like clinchers.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

My biggest fear would be if a tubular came off.......it could mean, new wheel, bike, and of course maybe even your life, if you rolled under a car say........Thing is, I know this has happened with Tubulars, as people point out can happen with Clinchers. For me I need to know this is extremely rare, otherwise, I think I would stick with the heavier, but safer clinchers


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

You don't have to worry about the tubular tire coming off as a result of braking. If you don't install/glue the tire correctly, it could roll off. It is typically user error, not equipment error or failure.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Ok, I understand that if you don't glue it properly that may be the only reason, but is it hard to get this right? why do people get it wrong? and if so, is it rare or common?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I dunno. A rolled tubular cost Joseba Beloki his career. Now all people remember is Lances remarkable cyclocross escape.

I ride low profile carbon tubulars myself, but I'm 73 kg and not too bad a bike handler.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

kbwh said:


> I dunno. A rolled tubular cost Joseba Beloki his career. Now all peopleremeber is Lances remarkable cyclocross escape.
> 
> I ride low profile carbon tubulars myself, but I'm 73 kg and not too bad a bike handler.


It wasn't the rolled tire that cause Beloki to crash. He was in the process of crashing already, his back wheel came off the ground and struck sideways. This is what caused the tire to roll off. Whether he was riding tubulars or clinchers, he still would have crashed.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Nope, never an issue riding carbon clinchers. I've raced them and ridden them on mountain rides in NC. No overheating issues whatsoever.

You must remember, the heat being generated is in short bursts, and dissipates quickly due to the simple cooling effect of the wheel turning through the wind.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

I would not worry about clinchers from Easton, Zipp, 2011 Reynolds as they all use advanced in-molded brake tracks that are resistant to overheating and warping. That said I'd be leery getting some random Chinese clinchers as they don't appear to have anything except maybe a basalt layer over the clear coat. So they will probably suffer from the same overheating problems common among 1st generation carbon clinchers. Also I'd disagree a bit about the tires. While it is possible to find fairly cheap tubulars they are usually junk and not worth the hassle. You can get top tier clinchers (PR3, Ultremo, GP40000) for around $35 a piece if you look around. A similar grade tubular will easily cost 2-3 times as much per tire.


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## jwp3476 (Jun 22, 2010)

Carbon fibre rims don't accept the heat from braking like aluminum rims. The brake pads melt to dissipate the heat and leave deposits on the rims. I have read of people having problems with gluing tubulars to CF rims because of the slick surface but I haven't experienced any problems riding CF rims for over 13 years. Clean rims with Conti or Vitoria glue have created more of an issue with removing the tire from the rim for me.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

yes that has been mentioned before, so NOT tubular fault


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## tomato (May 16, 2002)

kbwh said:


> I dunno. A rolled tubular cost Joseba Beloki his career. Now all peopleremeber is Lances remarkable cyclocross escape.


Um, sorry, no.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...l-behind-the-sticker-sequential-shifts_155419


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Do you mean Clinchers or Tubulars?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I've reasearched this a lot as I've delaminated 2 Reynolds carbon clincher rims, one resulting in a bad crash, a plate in my arm, and a few days in the hospital. Both were during descents (mountains, not hills). The crash was due to the rear tire coming off. Both carbon clinchers and tubulars are affected by braking heat. With clinchers it can be either a delamination or failure due to the increased air pressure due to the heat on the inner tube. Josh Poertner, technical director, at Zipp has some posts about this - one of the reasons it took Zipp so long to come out with an all carbon clincher. With tubulars the biggest issue is heating of the glue. The tire can slide on the rim causing the valve to sheer off then roll or just roll. Speculation was this was the cause of Voigt's crash at the tour last year (not the one involving his face plant the year before). This is more rare, but is not unheard of, and both are dependent on rim depth since shallower rims do not dissipate heat as well as deeper ones. 

There are risks with both, more so with carbon clinchers since the rim bead is a weak link. The obvious solution is disc brakes, but so far that's only cyclocross.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Well, tomato. Did Beloki's tub roll or not?

Sweetener:
All in all I think the root cause of Beloki's accident was _Basque riding skills_.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

Never had a problem with tubulars, but funny you mention that incident as the only wheels that ever concerned me were my 303's, which I believe is what he was using. They would get super hot, much hotter than any other wheel I've had. On technical decents you could smell the rubber from the pads. I think perhaps the toroidal shape mixed with the shallower profile does not provide adequate cooling.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

dcl10 said:


> I would not worry about clinchers from Easton, Zipp, 2011 Reynolds as they all use advanced in-molded brake tracks that are resistant to overheating and warping. That said I'd be leery getting some random Chinese clinchers as they don't appear to have anything except maybe a basalt layer over the clear coat. So they will probably suffer from the same overheating problems common among 1st generation carbon clinchers. Also I'd disagree a bit about the tires. While it is possible to find fairly cheap tubulars they are usually junk and not worth the hassle. You can get top tier clinchers (PR3, Ultremo, GP40000) for around $35 a piece if you look around. A similar grade tubular will easily cost 2-3 times as much per tire.


Actually, from what I understand, there is no basalt layer on most of the Chinese carbon clinchers. They just don't clear coat the "brake track."


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Okay...for the last time...

Beloki hit a melting portion of sealing tar on the road while on the rear brake. The rear of the bike came out from under him. He tried to correct the slide. The bike hopped and the rear tire blew and rolled off the rim when the wheel hit the ground, just before the crash.

The tire did not roll of the rim and cause the crash. 

Like was said before, Spanish bike handling skills were to blame...

Voigt's crash was not caused by a rolled tire either. His chain sucked on the rough road, and when he tried to pedal, it slipped and he went over the bars.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> Okay...for the last time...
> 
> Beloki hit a melting portion of sealing tar on the road while on the rear brake. The rear of the bike came out from under him. He tried to correct the slide. The bike hopped and the rear tire blew and rolled off the rim when the wheel hit the ground, just before the crash.
> 
> ...


I was referring to Voigt's 2010 crash, not the 2009 crash. He crashed on the descent of the Col de Peyresourde:

"I'm doing 70 kilometres an hour on the first descent when my front tyre explodes," explained Voigt.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> I was referring to Voigt's 2010 crash, not the 2009 crash. He crashed on the descent of the Col de Peyresourde:
> 
> "I'm doing 70 kilometres an hour on the first descent when my front tyre explodes," explained Voigt.


Could have been anything...


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

yes tyre exploding, is not due to glue giving way, so does not say anything specific about tubulars? like Back in the saddle says...Could have been anything, or for that matter could have happened with a clincher too.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Gervase said:


> yes tyre exploding, is not due to glue giving way, so does not say anything specific about tubulars? like Back in the saddle says...Could have been anything, or for that matter could have happened with a clincher too.


I mentioned Josh Poertner, technical director at Zipp, discussing this issue in my previous post. Here is his statement (from the Zipp website). One cause of a sudden rupture of a tubular tire is the valve ripping off from the tire due to the tire slipping on the rim once heat has softened the glue. As I said, this was speculated to be the cause of Voigt's crash. 

Josh Poertner on heat, clinchers, and tubulars: 

"It is the heat that causes the butyl inner tube to fail and not the pressure increase, although I have seen people blow clincher tires off of rims due to the pressure increase. We have seen rim temperatures in testing exceeding 325F, which can be enough to raise the air pressure in the tire by 20-25psi, so this can be a blowout risk on loose fitting tires or rims at the low end of the ISO diameter spec. On tubulars the heat is more likely to melt or soften the glue than blow the tube as the tire base tape and casing serve to insulate the tube. The tire rupture on tubulars is more likely going to be that the tire begins to rotate on the rim and the valve is ripped from the tube. I was doing a US Nationals about 15 years ago in Bear Mtn. New York and they started the race at the top of some climb and neutralized the start behind a car for the 3 or 4 mile descent and maybe 20 people flatted or rolled tires in those 3 or 4 miles due to brake heat of having to ride a steep descent at 25mph behind a car…painful.
Anyway, alternating your brake usage or at least feathering out of one brake of the other for a few seconds will lower rim temperatures considerably. Also using brake pads without any abrasive additives like the Zipp pads or even the Kool Stop Black pads will lower temps by as much as 20-30degrees and up to 60 degrees for the Zipp pad which also contains thermally conductive materials. Most pads anymore contain aluminum oxide; the same stuff sand paper is made from, to increase coefficient of friction, but that also increases heat. Also, once the pads do begin to melt they create an insulating situation on the rim where the hot pad material melts to the rim keeping the aluminum or carbon from being able to reject heat to the atmosphere, and also increases the surface coefficient of friction, so that when the part of the rim with melted pad on it comes through the brakes again it is hotter and higher friction which will make it even hotter...a sort of snowball effect.
Finally, lighter weight, or shallower profile rims will get hotter as they have less mass to act as a heat sink, and less surface area to dissipate heat for convective cooling. The more aerodynamically effective a rim is the better it will generally cool as the airflow stays attached to a larger area of rim where it can transfer away heat.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Interesting Post "Stevesbike"


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## Peninsula Ryan (Aug 2, 2002)

backinthesaddle said:


> Okay...for the last time...
> 
> Beloki hit a melting portion of sealing tar on the road while on the rear brake. The rear of the bike came out from under him. He tried to correct the slide. The bike hopped and the rear tire blew and rolled off the rim when the wheel hit the ground, just before the crash.
> 
> ...


@backinthesaddle
I hope this is some sort of inside joke, because otherwise this is rediculous...the Spanish have poor bike handling skills? you can't be serious, but you sure can be offensive.

Whatever, this is the internet, you can say whatever you want. lame


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## bluhorizan (Jul 24, 2006)

In regards to carbon clincher rims, I've very much enjoyed riding on them over the past year. They are very light, stiff yet compliant yielding a very smooth ride. The Edge (Now ENVE) 1.45 carbon clinchers are some of the best currently made and the ones that I personally own. However I have had a series of problems with the Edge 1.45 clincher carbon rims. Edge had been very responsive to my warranty problems with their 1.45 clincher wheels. First set began having pulsations with braking and was found to be warped. Edge promptly replaced the rim. This occurred again and the second wheel set was replaced. The latest version of their wheels (10/2010) were sent to me and instead of Swiss yellow stop brake pads, they now have a gray brake pad which is recommended specifically for their wheel. Took my bike out for the first time yesterday and rode my favorite 7 mile climb in Palo Alto. The wheels felt great, stiff yet comfortable and responsive. Braking also seemed improved. The descent on Page Mill road is steep and challenging with a number of switchbacks and a 8-12% grade. I'm in my 50's so I don't push the speed above 30mph down hills and much slower in steeper sections. About a third of the way down, there are two steep switchbacks which I braked fairly hard to about 12 mph. As I exited the second switchback and started to accelerate into the next straight section, I heard a pop and then a flash of light. The next thing I recall is laying on the side of the road and several people around me. The front tire had rolled off and blown out. I was taken to the local ER and had a head CT and chest x-ray. Fortunately I don't have any permanent injuries after this accident. I'm still wondering why the blow out with this brand new set of wheels with ENVE developed new brake pads? I have descended this same mountain numerous times with their previous versions and wonder if there is actually less heat dissipation with these new materials. At this point I think I'm done with carbon clincher wheels despite their incredible ride characteristics. Having survived my first serious bike crash, I am thankful to be writing this post today.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Hi, sorry to hear of your off. I too am 55, & with this whole thread I started, I wanted to find out about tubulars,as I was against them. Because I don't want to come off my bike because the tyre rolls off the rim.

What I have learnt (and my wheelbuilder shared this too) is that CARBON clinchers may be the worst as they suffer overheating problems, more so than the tubulars? This causes heat pressure bulks up. The stories of offs with tubulars appear to be mainly historic. I am going to learn to glue my own, and according to my very good and trustworthy wheel builder, this will be fine. Just to be carefull at each stage and not miss gluing. 

It appears carbon clinchers may have overheating problems indeed?


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Peninsula Ryan said:


> @backinthesaddle
> I hope this is some sort of inside joke, because otherwise this is rediculous...the Spanish have poor bike handling skills? you can't be serious, but you sure can be offensive.
> 
> Whatever, this is the internet, you can say whatever you want. lame


Call the waaaahmbulance... 

It's really not all that ridiculous, considering it's a well known joke among the Euro-Dogs...

Here's a quote from Matty Lloyd...(Omega Pharma-Lotto)
"They just fall off. There's no reason why. You'll just be riding along and there they'll be like a bleeding carrot in the middle of the road lying in pain." 

Thanks for stopping by...grab a Kleenex on the way out...


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

Sorry about the accident...terrible stuff....

BUT, and it's a big BUT...

For every story you hear about people having issues with a carbon clincher, there are dozens of people who have never had an issue. Folks get on the interwebs to tell about their problems/issues. Rarely do you hear "I rode my (insert name here) carbon clinchers today and had no issues at all. It was an uneventful ride..."


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## bluhorizan (Jul 24, 2006)

Hi, you are correct. What's perplexing to me is how much riding I've done on the same type of carbon clinchers over the past year and had no catastrophic failures. 

Gave some further thought to my accident and came up with the following:

Bought my original set of Edge 1.45 carbon clinchers early last year and rode in the following centuries:

1) 2nd Stage of the Tour of California Benefit ride with George Hincapie, 4/2010 Davis to Santa Rosa, CA 125 miles, 9000 feet of elevation
2) Pulsating Braking of Front Wheel noted in 5/2010, Edge replaced front wheel
3) Sequoia Century, Palo Alto, CA 6/2010 Rode metric century with 8000 feet of climbing
4) Markleeville Death Ride, 7/2010, 129 miles, 16,000 feet of climbing
5) Local Rides (several times a week)
Old La Honda 1100 feet of climbing with steep descent
Kings Mtn, 1400 feet of climbing
Page Mill Rd, 2100 feet of climbing with steep descent

All of the above rides were done using the Swiss Stop Yellow Brake Pads

6) Pulsating Braking of Front Wheel noted again in 9/2010. Edge replaced both wheels with their latest version in 11/2010 and supplied the new gray brake pads.
7) First ride on the new wheels and pads with bike on 1/15/2011 up and down Page Mill road. Crash on descent (10 miles into ride) with evidence of inner tube blow out. Ambient temperature in the low 60's. 

Now it could have just been bad luck, but I now suspect that the combination of new gray pads and carbon rim with a new braking surface material don't dissipate heat adequately. The other variable that may be a factor here is braking technique. It has been mentioned that these types of rims should be ridden with little or no sustained braking at much higher speeds and are designed for high level competition. Braking should be used in short hard bursts and not dragged or ridden for any prolonged period. The section of mountain I was descending was in the 8-12% range for perhaps a half a mile with multiple sweeping curves before the 2 elbow hairpin turns where the accident occurred. I kept my speed below 30mph. Someone mentioned previously that in competition a group of racers had to slow behind cars and followed them on a long descent traveling at 25mph resulting in multiple flats. What's disconcerting is that this suggests a very narrow tolerance of safety. Also my braking technique had not changed over the 50 previous descents I've made on this mountain with the previous generation of these wheels.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

backinthesaddle said:


> Call the waaaahmbulance...
> 
> It's really not all that ridiculous, considering it's a well known joke among the Euro-Dogs...
> 
> ...


I remember reading that somewhere as well. By anywho this is a quality banter session so please keep it up for our entertainment.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

backinthesaddle said:


> Call the waaaahmbulance...
> 
> It's really not all that ridiculous, considering it's a well known joke among the Euro-Dogs...
> 
> ...



Meh there seems to be (as there would be with any group of people) folks on both sides. Sammy Sanchez, Spanish, is considered one of the best descenders in the peloton, Stewart O'Grady, Aussie, seems to fall down every other race and breaks an avg of two bones a year.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Just to recap: I wrote Basque, not Spanish. Sammy is of course the carrot that does not bleed...


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Meh there seems to be (as there would be with any group of people) folks on both sides. Sammy Sanchez, Spanish, is considered one of the best descenders in the peloton, Stewart O'Grady, Aussie, seems to fall down every other race and breaks an avg of two bones a year.


Please don't mention Tom Danielson either! Just the mere whisper of his name will lprobably be enough to knock him off the bike and put him out for 6 weeks!


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

It's a stupid comment "the Spanish have poor riding skills" & intelligent people realize it's without a real basis. Generalizing just usually leaves yourself open for criticism.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

If you use carbon clinchers be very careful about the tire/rim interface - tires vary in their ISO diameter spec - those at the low end do not fit tight enough and the heat buildup causes the tube pressure to increase, which can cause the tube to blow off the tire - it happened to me (the tire manufacturer asked for the rim/tire from me and is doing internal tests). If the tire goes on easily don't use it...


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## jmess (Aug 24, 2006)

Your starting tire air pressure and the temperature of the road surface will contribute to your peak tire pressure during a ride. The outside air temp could be 80 but the temperature of asphalt can be 10+ degrees hotter. Now throw in heat generated by the brakes and your tire pressure is going to peak higher during a fast decent with heavy braking. 

For every 6-7 degrees of road surface temp increase you can see a 1 PSI increase in tire pressure. So on hot days when you know you will being doing some heavy braking you might consider lowering your starting air pressure by 5-10 PSI. Once you are rolling on hot pavement the pressure will increase. I get the 6-7 degrees from when I used to race cars and measure tire temps and air pressure after every track session. I haven't done these measurements with bike tires but I think you will be in the ball park with 1 PSI for 6-7 degrees.

I am headed into my 3rd season with Reynolds DV UL 46C wheels and haven't had any big issues with overheating. I have done enough technical descents that I would have crashed by now if carbon clincher braking = fail. I don't race bikes but I still enjoy speed.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

jmess said:


> Your starting tire air pressure and the temperature of the road surface will contribute to your peak tire pressure during a ride. The outside air temp could be 80 but the temperature of asphalt can be 10+ degrees hotter. Now throw in heat generated by the brakes and your tire pressure is going to peak higher during a fast decent with heavy braking.


welcome to the forum - read some of my prior posts and especially a quote from the technical director at Zipp. They have recorded rim temperatures of over 325 degrees - due to braking, not ambient temperature! As he states, that increases tire pressure by over 20-25 pounds (since temperature is a term in the ideal gas law....). According to him, that may cause a tire to blow off the rim...

p.s. great that you have had no problems - but an n = 1 doesn't mean no one will have issues. The failure rate is likely very small, but riders should at least be aware of these potential risks...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

backinthesaddle said:


> Call the waaaahmbulance...
> 
> It's really not all that ridiculous, considering it's a well known joke among the Euro-Dogs...
> 
> ...


I utterly LOVE Matty Lloyd. There's a video of him commenting on the scuffle between Costa and Barredo that is hysterical.


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## jmess (Aug 24, 2006)

This article may offer some insights into some other factors that can impact tire pressures. Making some adjustments in tire pressure (lower on hotter days) may reduce the potential for tire blow outs to some degree with any tire and rim combination.

http://www.fitwerx.com/tire-pressure-and-maintenance


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## lust4bikes (Aug 1, 2010)

Stevesbike earlier articulated the issues well. I delaminated a 50mm carbon clincher (a no name Taiwanese brand) descending Sierra (in San Jose). I was lucky not to have crashed...just the rear beads bulged and hit the brake pads on every rotation. I currently ride Bontrager Race xxx lites, a 24mm carbon clincher. This has been road tested through some extreme descents, no problem. Downside is the cost... I just bought a pair of Assault tubulars (at a great price) in part because of my concern of over heating issues. Bottom line: for a value priced mid profile carbon wheel the better bet will be tubular when placing a premium on safety. This assumes they are properly glued on (and not taped)!


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes, getting a sense that tape is used by Multisporters or triathletes, where cornering issues, ie holding power of tyre to the rim is not so important.


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## basho (Sep 10, 2003)

I must be having a different problem then everyone else then. I have easton EC90 aero tubular wheels, carbon braking surface, and I have been using the correct kwik stop yellow carbon ppads, but the mountains around here are really steep. I love the wheels, but I have now destroyed my second set of wheels via the heat buildup on the breaking surface on descents. they start warping and bubble right in the brake track....and its time to send them back. Ugh. If anyone has any thoughts on how I can keep riding carbon tubulars in the mtns without wrecking the wheels in a few months, I'd be interested in hearing about it.


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## lust4bikes (Aug 1, 2010)

1) Change your wheels! This is still "new frontier" of carbon wheels. Some mfr's have it dialed in better than others. I don't have experience with your specific wheels but I did experience the same phenomena as you on Carbon Clinchers which I exchanged for some alloy wheels (two sets of equal dollar value). I also ride a lot of extreme hills and didn't want to continually ask for replacements. Hopefully your dealer will work with you... and hopefully they will have other exchange options for you besides warping another pair of EC90 wheels!


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

First time I've heard of a tubular warping. Wow. You must have really built up some heat. Kind of glad I went clincher now. as I was only going tubular to avoid warping. But it appears neither are good for long descents.


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## bluhorizan (Jul 24, 2006)

Look at March issue of Velo News. Has big article on carbon clinchers showing heat issues which are more serious than with tubular wheels but still an issue that you have experienced.
Bottom line: Bigger companies seem to have more effective R&D in developing heat resistant resins and more dissipation of heat to prevent these problems. Ie Zipp and Reynolds showed the best results in their testing. In addition, braking techniqie ie on or off rather than riding brakes allows rims to cool. Aluminum rims still are superior in heat loss and may ultimately be the best choice for long steep descents giving one more confidence and security.


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## rickturbo (Nov 19, 2004)

*Scary Experience*

Wow, this is darn right scarry. I sort of went through a similar process without the trip to the pavement. I'm a 190 lb sprinter so decending puts my rims through hell. My ENVE 45's began warping soon after purchase. ENVE quickly sent me new set with new braking surface and pads. I sold them. Loved the performance of the rims though. Another guy on my team loves them and haven't had any problems. The fact that he's 40+ lbs lighter may have something to do with it. I went back to my Bontrager XXX's and DA 1380's. They may not be as cool looking as aero wheels but they are bullit proof. :thumbsup:


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

bluhorizan said:


> Look at March issue of Velo News. Has big article on carbon clinchers showing heat issues which are more serious than with tubular wheels but still an issue that you have experienced.
> Bottom line: Bigger companies seem to have more effective R&D in developing heat resistant resins and more dissipation of heat to prevent these problems. Ie Zipp and Reynolds showed the best results in their testing. In addition, braking techniqie ie on or off rather than riding brakes allows rims to cool. Aluminum rims still are superior in heat loss and may ultimately be the best choice for long steep descents giving one more confidence and security.


And Velonews was the same bunch of dopes that used a 2 or 3 year old Williams clincher set, then complained when they didn't perform well. I recall Williams asked them in what world they thought it appropriate to compare a 3 year old set to brand new offerings. As far as I know, they never heard an explanation.

That wheel test was garbage. There was no objective measurement involved whatsoever, so it thereby invalidates any of their results.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

thanks for that, so it's looking like Carbon clinchers may have some issues to resolve??


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## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

I did a Giro trip last year, the organizer explicitly forbade carbon clinchers. Too many issues in the past. It would be suicide to take carbon clinchers down Stelvio, Zoncolan, Mortirolo, Giau, etc.. The pros were (and continue) to use carbon tubulars, no problems. My point, if you're gonna spend any time descending MOUNTAINS don't get carbon clinchers. If you're tooling around the flats, probably not an issue.. just don't take it up a mountain. Better safe than sorry.

My recommendation, get yourself some somewhat aero aluminum clinchers for training. Too much hassle dealing with a tubular flat. Then a nice set of carbon tubulars for race day, if you get a flat, you're pretty much out of the race anyway.. unless you have a support vehicle.


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## bluhorizan (Jul 24, 2006)

What wheel set did you take on the Giro? Would you have considered tubulars on a longer tour over a number of days if there was some support on the ride?


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## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

bluhorizan said:


> What wheel set did you take on the Giro? Would you have considered tubulars on a longer tour over a number of days if there was some support on the ride?


I have a powertap, so it's a custom built wheelset, but nothing special. Pretty generic Kinlin aluminum clinchers. I'd hesitate recommending tubulars for your trip. Even if you have a spare tubular tire, I doubt you'll get a chance to glue it properly. If you're really set on riding some fancy carbon, take some aluminum clinchers as backup.


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## venpa (Jul 16, 2010)

*ENVE / EDGE carbon clincher overheating and melting*

Like Bluhorizan, I bought Edge 45 wheels (clincher) 12 months a go. I am 78 kg and ride very steep hills (10-18%, 1-4km). I was using Swisstop brake pads. During a normal mantenance repair, my mechanics noted deformation of my front rim. EDGE replaced it right away with ar ENVE clincher (no fee).
3 months later, going down a 3 km hill (10%), I felt front vibration. I stopped and saw that my front rim was deformed, it melted... I was lucky that the tire did not blow out !
My bike shop and Enve, told me that they had bad carbon batches... and asked for the serial number of my wheels to check if mine were part of the defect batch.
Then they offer to replace both of my wheels (melted and the rear still ok) for brand new clincher or tubular. I chose Tubular ones. My bike shop rebuilt my two hubs with the brand new tubular 45 mm rims. I changed my brake pads with the Enve (gray). Braking efficiency seems better with the Enve pad vs the Swisstop.
I rode 1000 km now in the same hills with the tubular rims and it seems ok. 
But I must say that I still cannot ride without fear of a rim disfonction going down hill...


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## basho (Sep 10, 2003)

lust4bikes said:


> 1) Change your wheels! This is still "new frontier" of carbon wheels. Some mfr's have it dialed in better than others. I don't have experience with your specific wheels but I did experience the same phenomena as you on Carbon Clinchers which I exchanged for some alloy wheels (two sets of equal dollar value). I also ride a lot of extreme hills and didn't want to continually ask for replacements. Hopefully your dealer will work with you... and hopefully they will have other exchange options for you besides warping another pair of EC90 wheels!



Easton did send me a new set, which was cool. I love the wheels, and I rode them on some serious hills for years without any problem, (reynolds carbon tubulars as well) but many of the routes in the santa monica mtns here in CA are very steep and very twisty the descents are very long, SO there is really a need to get on the brakes. I've really mostly had the problem with the rear wheel, because I use the rear a bit more consistently than the front--so for now Im on an easton ec90 aero in the front, and a fulcrum racing one tubular in the back. Bottom line is I need an aluminum braking track in the rear at least. So far, I cant find any carbon tubulars that have one, but I have noticed that zipp 404 clinchers have one. I really prefer the ride of tubular, but the fulcrum is a bit heavy and non aero, and the carbon ride is a bit better. So it looks like Im going to put a zipp 404 clincher in the back and keep the easton in the front... Or maybe I should just go with a set of the 404's.

I also read on some forum that there is some kind of material used in formula one racing that protects carbon from heat buildup. Sounds like what they should be treating that braking surfaces with----if this is a regular problem. Now that carbon wheels are good enough to use every day-- we get these sorts of issues...


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

I have just had a set of carbon tubulars built for me. I asked the wheel builder, probably N.Z. best wheel builder, (certainly has the best reputation), "what about Carbon wheels with aluminium braking surface?" his response was simple, "Weight". Makes sense. Just come back from the Tour of Northland, and asking guys with different wheel sets about their wheels. Bottom line is Carbon Clincher sets are significantly heavier, because of the construction required, and not uncommon for them to be up to 500gsm (1/2 a kilo, or just over a pound) per wheel set heavier? Seems senseless to have a carbon clincher wheels set that is actually heavier at say 1800gsm compared to getting a good aluminium clincher set at approximately 1/2 the price and around 1400gsm? when you can also go extra, get Tubular, carbon wheel set, and end up with something cheaper than the carbon clinchers and around the 1300gsm mark? I think also the heat problem may be to do with the clincher carbons being heavier, or more material, therefore don't dissapate the heat as well?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Gervase said:


> thanks for that, so it's looking like Carbon clinchers may have some issues to resolve??


If you look at a cross section of the clincher rim, there's a lot riding on that carbon lip. The tech is improving, but I think it will be a long time before you can ride the brakes on long and fast descents with them without having to worry.


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## Gervase (Aug 22, 2009)

i also wonder how strong is the carbon lip? when inserting tyre levers etc to remove the tyres? Do they handle the stress of this on the material?


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## bluhorizan (Jul 24, 2006)

I agree that carbon clinchers have some very challenging design problems that carbon tubular wheels don't share where the tube is completely encased within the tire and the rim is structurally stronger without a thin lip. My accident occurred with the newest generation of ENVE 45's carbon clinchers with the Vittoria EVO Corso CX tires. The tire has a cotton sidewall giving a very tubular tire like ride but I noticed the bead of the tire is fairly easy to pull over the rim. Possibly the thicker carbon walled rim and lip with hard braking resulted in extremely high internal temperatures hyper-inflating the exposed tube exerting enough force to blow the tire bead off the rim. Several factors involved including low heat dissipation, direct contact of rim to inner tube and tire material and bead fit.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Gervase said:


> i also wonder how strong is the carbon lip? when inserting tyre levers etc to remove the tyres? Do they handle the stress of this on the material?


When I'm the one riding them at full on race pace and on a fast descent, I don't want to wonder.


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