# Lugged Steel: Old or New??



## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

What are your thoughts about new vs. old lugged steel frames from the Italian masters? Would you prefer:
- a new Colnago Master X-Light or a NOS Master Light/Olympic/Tecnos? 
- a new De Rosa Neo Primato or a NOS Primato? 
- a new Ciocc San Cristobal Replica or a NOS San Cristobal?
- a new Gios Professional (the model only available in Italy) or NOS Professional SL?
- a new Bianchi Dolomiti or a NOS Reparto Corse EL OS?

For me, I think I would pick the new version every time, with the exception of the Bianchi. But one that I am not so sure about is the Ciocc. The original Ciocc was made by Pelizzoli and company. Are the new Cioccs still made by Pelizzoli and co and if not, are they as good as the original Cioccs??


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm not too keen on Ciocc. but I would easily go for the NOS steel before the newer one. Not only that, the resale value will be higher. Look at what a used Master Light costs and compare it to new. The older ones were over built. Most new bikes seem to be made to be disposable. I would bet that steel and Ti are no exceptions unless they are custom frames. I wonder how well a 2008 bike will hold up in 20 years with regular use.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

It bowls me over what these frames go for these days. R&A has a Masterlight frame for $2700. Wrench Science has a Neo Primato for $2200. I saw a couple of beautiful Tomassini frames for sale in the $2300 range at a ride I did last fall. This is getting to the price point for a titanium frame. Yeah, they're pretty and they aren't stamped out of a machine someplace in China, but $2000+ for a steel frame is steep. 

What about buying a used one from the late 1990's made of steel that post dates SLX? Hell you could even get it repainted and be half the proce of one of these new frames. Has steel gotten much better in the last 10 or so years?


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## vladvm (May 4, 2010)

I prefer vintage lugged steel bikes, hand made, beautiful and cheap, with plenty of history.
Modern lugged steel bikes don't have the same appeal to me..no history, what's the point?
I prefer my modern bike in carbon fiber.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I'll take old.
Old steel has threaded forks and quill stems.. 

Most of the newer frames use threadless and the manufactures haven't compensated for the lower stack height with a higher headtube..


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Dave*



Dave Hickey said:


> I'll take old.
> Old steel has threaded forks and quill stems..
> 
> Most of the newer frames use threadless and the manufactures haven't compensated for the lower stack height with a higher headtube..


my 2005 Merckx MXL has a threadless form. I use a mutant stem because it has that arc of a quill stem


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

For what you'd pay for new lugged steel from Cinelli, Colnago, De Rosa, etc., you could get a very nice custom frame from Waterford, Ybarolla, Townsend, or any number of other builders.

And you can spec a 1" threaded fork.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

terbennett said:


> I'm not too keen on Ciocc. but I would easily go for the NOS steel before the newer one.


Really? Do you not like Ciocc overall? Or just the new ones? Back in the day when I first started riding in 1985, Ciocc and De Rosa were the bikes I most coveted (even though I had a great bike in a Gios Professional and a lowere level team-colored Gitane). I didn't know anything about Colnago or Pinarello at the time- just saw some Cioccs with wicked cool paint jobs and I had to have it. I just recently had the craving to find an old Ciocc to add to my stable and I sort of did with the ebay purchase of a tig-welded, steel COM 12.5 Ciocc but that is not the same as a classic, lugged Ciocc. So the lust goes on and I am on the lookout. 

What kind of reputation did Ciocc have back in the '80s? Were they considered great riding frames or just great looking with those elaborate paint jobs? I know some say that '80s Colnagos weren't that good. Wondering if that sentiment permeated most other Italian frames during that era.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> my 2005 Merckx MXL has a threadless form. I use a mutant stem because it has that arc of a quill stem



I agree...A mutant is one of the few theadless stems I'd use. 
Most of the threadless stems look fine on a fat tubed carbon/aluminum frame but I think they look out of place on a steel frame..It's purely an aesthetics issue with me


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> I agree...A mutant is one of the few theadless stems I'd use.
> Most of the threadless stems look fine on a fat tubed carbon/aluminum frame but I think they look out of place on a steel frame..It's purely an aesthetics issue with me


I'm the opposite. I think the Mutant is hideous and I don't like quill stems either. Too much a PITA to remove bars. Have you ever seen the chrome VO2 stems from Velo Orange? A poster named BNAroadie had the most beautiful Tommasini Tecno I've ever seen and he had a VO stem that was just perfect! Thinner than the typical threadless stem with a single rear bolt. Chromed just right and went great with lugged steel.


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

I'd say go with new because you can run more abundant & often less expensive choices of 1 1/8" steerer forks. Threadless steerers are not an issue if you get a frame with the right length headtube. You also get 130mm rear spacing so you don't have to spread the rear dropouts to fit modern wheels


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Ride-Fly said:


> I'm the opposite. I think the Mutant is hideous and I don't like quill stems either. Too much a PITA to remove bars. Have you ever seen the chrome VO2 stems from Velo Orange? A poster named BNAroadie had the most beautiful Tommasini Tecno I've ever seen and he had a VO stem that was just perfect! Thinner than the typical threadless stem with a single rear bolt. Chromed just right and went great with lugged steel.



Yeah, the VO stems are nice.. Nitto also makes a decent threadless stem.

My favorite threadless was an old Salsa steel stem.. it was for 1" steerer tubes, single bolt and it wasn't open faced.. it was very small diameter and looked just right on a steel frame....


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Richard said:


> For what you'd pay for new lugged steel from Cinelli, Colnago, De Rosa, etc., you could get a very nice custom frame from Waterford, Ybarolla, Townsend, or any number of other builders.
> 
> And you can spec a 1" threaded fork.


Richard is correct. I own both a Waterford and Master Light. The Waterford has a 1" threaded stem and the Colnago a 1 1/8" threadless. The Waterford is just as good, if not better than the Nag. In addition, it is built by a small group of craftmen in the good ol US of A.


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## PlasticMotif (Aug 1, 2006)

I recently bought a new Steel bike. I love it. Just sayin.

hickey I need your opinion.










fixed, pre-built, 700 bucks...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

http://www.pelizzoliworld.com


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I have a Gios Compact Pro, my favorite bike of all time


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

depends on how old and the fit... older frames tend to have slack STAs and longer TTs among other differences, not to mention fewer sizes


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## mriddle (Nov 16, 2005)

*i like old*

I was in the market for a lugged steel Italian bike a couple years ago. My search ended with a 1994 De Rosa Primato. I did look at the Neo Primato but here is why I waited and waited to find an older Primato in 57; webbed bottom bracket, 1 inch threaded steer tube, internal rear brake cable, Columbus EL/OS. I did go with modern Campy Athena 11 spd.


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## andresmuro (Dec 11, 2007)

Ride-Fly said:


> What are your thoughts about new vs. old lugged steel frames from the Italian masters? Would you prefer:
> - a new Colnago Master X-Light or a NOS Master Light/Olympic/Tecnos?
> - a new De Rosa Neo Primato or a NOS Primato?
> - a new Ciocc San Cristobal Replica or a NOS San Cristobal?
> ...


I've been riding steel bikes since the early 80s. The more modern bikes are just as nice or nicer than the old ones and have 130 mm spreading. I am now riding a brand new motobecane frame made in Taiwan. Awesome finish and quality.

While Italian bikes have more mystique, frame builders that I've talked to and the most experienced shop owners have told me that Asian bikes were always better built, finished and have equal or better quality. 

For example, in the 80s Tange # 1, prestige and Ishiwata 022 were comparatively equal or better than Columbus SL or SLX. However a Centurion with champion 1 would cost half of what a Ciocc with SL would cost. And the Centurion would come preped and ready to build while the Ciocc would require additional prepping before building. 

About 4 years ago I bought a Specialized Allez lugged frame and fork made in Taiwan, from the early 90s for $150. It was brand new and had the prettiest lugs, nicest paint and most awesome ride of any bike I ever owned. it was slightly small so I am going to sell the frame. 

If you really like steel, the best advise is to look for an older japanese frame such as myiata, fuji, centurion, specialized, trek (us made), etc. You can score a top quality frame for less than 200. Have a frame builder cold set the rear to 130mm, usually at less than 40.00 bucks. Finally, take it to a powder coating shop and have them spray it a couple of times.

You'll have a brand new looking bike with indestructible paint for about $250 which will look and ride awesome and will cost half of what an used italian bike in poor condition will cost.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

andresmuro said:


> I've been riding steel bikes since the early 80s. The more modern bikes are just as nice or nicer than the old ones and have 130 mm spreading. I am now riding a brand new motobecane frame made in Taiwan. Awesome finish and quality.
> 
> While Italian bikes have more mystique, frame builders that I've talked to and the most experienced shop owners have told me that Asian bikes were always better built, finished and have equal or better quality.
> 
> ...


I'm sure Asian lugged steel are great riding, and made with high QC but it just doesn't do it for me. I've been more into the collecting mode as I don't need more bikes to ride. Besides, as far as used frames are concerned, I've been seeing some great deals on Italian steel frames the aren't but a few $$ more than what you mentioned for the Asian frames.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> I agree...A mutant is one of the few theadless stems I'd use.
> Most of the threadless stems look fine on a fat tubed carbon/aluminum frame but I think they look out of place on a steel frame..It's purely an aesthetics issue with me


That's been my problem. When the diameter of the stem is larger than the diameter of the top tube, it looks like a mistake. It breaks up the flow of the look.
It doesn't look to bad when the stem's diameter is proportional to the frame's tubing. It's hard to find a threadless stem that's thin. I've spend hours and hours looking all over and I'm getting the idea that there was a very short window when any were made, and that window's been closed for years. The Deda Newton is one, but it only seems to come in something ridiculous like a +-17 degree. Kelly made a steel stem that was thin, but it looked kinda cheap. You could pay a bundle to have a lugged stem make, but if then you might as well get a proper threaded fork and quill stem.


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## jaimemmm (Apr 17, 2007)

i agree wirh onlineflyer. I also had a colnago x-light and a waterford paramount. The Colnago was a beauty but the paramount was the bike I wished I kept after I sold them both. The paramount was a great bike. I now ride a merlin cyrene. I am very happy with the bike. I bought the '02 merlin on e bay for 900.00 new. I still regret selling the paramount it was that good. I only can ride one bike at a time, so I sold the colnago,paramount, litspeed tuscany, chinese bike and a columbus tube mountain bike. now it is just the merlin and s works hardtail mountain bike. I still look on e bay for a red waterford paramount in new condition.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Richard said:


> For what you'd pay for new lugged steel from Cinelli, Colnago, De Rosa, etc., you could get a very nice custom frame from Waterford, Ybarolla, Townsend, or any number of other builders.
> 
> And you can spec a 1" threaded fork.





onlineflyer said:


> Richard is correct. I own both a Waterford and Master Light. The Waterford has a 1" threaded stem and the Colnago a 1 1/8" threadless. The Waterford is just as good, if not better than the Nag. In addition, it is built by a small group of craftmen in the good ol US of A.





jaimemmm said:


> i agree wirh onlineflyer. I also had a colnago x-light and a waterford paramount. The Colnago was a beauty but the paramount was the bike I wished I kept after I sold them both. The paramount was a great bike. I now ride a merlin cyrene. I am very happy with the bike. I bought the '02 merlin on e bay for 900.00 new. I still regret selling the paramount it was that good. I only can ride one bike at a time, so I sold the colnago,paramount, litspeed tuscany, chinese bike and a columbus tube mountain bike. now it is just the merlin and s works hardtail mountain bike. I still look on e bay for a red waterford paramount in new condition.


I know Ride-Fly (OP) started this thread by citing an interest in collectable Italian bikes exclusively, and he probably has his own reasons for doing that. "Breaking Away", for example, certainly influenced the tastes of many of us toward Italian bikes. But IMHO it's very self-limiting to not at least consider highly regarded American framebuilders (and there are many). My Waterford RS-22 is polished Reynolds 953 stainless, and any imperfections like sloppy brazing, uneven lug shorelines, file marks, etc., that are easily concealed by a coat of paint stand out like a sore thumb on the mirror-like bare finish of highly polished stainless. The craftsmanship is as close to perfection as that of any frameset I've ever seen.

I'd just like to respectfully suggest Ride-Fly broaden his view of what's collectable, but ultimately we all have our own tastes and desires of what floats our boat.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

Scooper said:


> I know Ride-Fly (OP) started this thread by citing an interest in collectable Italian bikes exclusively, and he probably has his own reasons for doing that. "Breaking Away", for example, certainly influenced the tastes of many of us toward Italian bikes. But IMHO it's very self-limiting to not at least consider highly regarded American framebuilders (and there are many). My Waterford RS-22 is polished Reynolds 953 stainless, and any imperfections like sloppy brazing, uneven lug shorelines, file marks, etc., that are easily concealed by a coat of paint stand out like a sore thumb on the mirror-like bare finish of highly polished stainless. The craftsmanship is as close to perfection as that of any frameset I've ever seen.
> 
> I'd just like to respectfully suggest Ride-Fly broaden his view of what's collectable, but ultimately we all have our own tastes and desires of what floats our boat.


Wow Scooper!! That is beautamous!!! Certainly, Waterfords, Sachs, Serottas, Schwinn-Waterford Paramounts, Weigles, and a slew of other builders are highly desirable and collectible. As are some great Japanese models. I was very close to buying an RS-11
2.5 years ago from a shop in Denver. As a matter of fact, a Waterford Schwinn Paramount is very close to the top of my wish list and certainly is for American built frames IMHO. You are the man Scoop! I've seen a lot of your bikes, and I can only dream of someday matching your collection.


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Scooper said:


> I know Ride-Fly (OP) started this thread by citing an interest in collectable Italian bikes exclusively, and he probably has his own reasons for doing that. "Breaking Away", for example, certainly influenced the tastes of many of us toward Italian bikes. But IMHO it's very self-limiting to not at least consider highly regarded American framebuilders (and there are many). My Waterford RS-22 is polished Reynolds 953 stainless, and any imperfections like sloppy brazing, uneven lug shorelines, file marks, etc., that are easily concealed by a coat of paint stand out like a sore thumb on the mirror-like bare finish of highly polished stainless. The craftsmanship is as close to perfection as that of any frameset I've ever seen.
> 
> I'd just like to respectfully suggest Ride-Fly broaden his view of what's collectable, but ultimately we all have our own tastes and desires of what floats our boat.


That is one gorgeous bike, Scoop. And I'd wager it rides as nice as it looks.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

I've got enough old lugged bikes to last me. For new stuff I go TIG.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

that waterford is rather sick!


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

Dave Hickey said:


> I'll take old.
> Old steel has threaded forks and quill stems..
> 
> Most of the newer frames use threadless and the manufactures haven't compensated for the lower stack height with a higher headtube..


Long live the quill stem.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Ride-Fly said:


> Really? Do you not like Ciocc overall? Or just the new ones? Back in the day when I first started riding in 1985, Ciocc and De Rosa were the bikes I most coveted (even though I had a great bike in a Gios Professional and a lowere level team-colored Gitane). I didn't know anything about Colnago or Pinarello at the time- just saw some Cioccs with wicked cool paint jobs and I had to have it. I just recently had the craving to find an old Ciocc to add to my stable and I sort of did with the ebay purchase of a tig-welded, steel COM 12.5 Ciocc but that is not the same as a classic, lugged Ciocc. So the lust goes on and I am on the lookout.
> 
> What kind of reputation did Ciocc have back in the '80s? Were they considered great riding frames or just great looking with those elaborate paint jobs? I know some say that '80s Colnagos weren't that good. Wondering if that sentiment permeated most other Italian frames during that era.


I remember Ciocc from when I raced in the 80s too but De Rosa,Colnago and Guerciotti were the coveted bikes from what I remember.Ciocc had a sweet looking TT bike from what I remember and I had never even heard of Pinarello back then. Unfortunately, our team were on Paramounts and eventhough the are respected now, racers back then called them disposable bikes because it was a Schwinn. I'm talking steel frames- not the aluminum ones. I raced with an aluminum one my last year as a Junior.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

cs1 said:


> Long live the quill stem.


+1....:thumbsup:


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

terbennett said:


> +1....:thumbsup:


 +2.........


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Dave Hickey said:


> I'll take old.
> Old steel has threaded forks and quill stems..
> 
> Most of the newer frames use threadless and the manufactures haven't compensated for the lower stack height with a higher headtube..


How are threadless headsets any different in stack than threaded?

Integrated are different. Is that what you mean?


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Henry Chinaski said:


> I've got enough old lugged bikes to last me. For new stuff I go TIG.


+1 :thumbsup:


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

onlineflyer said:


> That is one gorgeous bike, Scoop. And I'd wager it rides as nice as it looks.


Thanks; it's everything I could hope for in a bicycle. I've ridden it twice from San Francisco to Los Angeles on the AIDS/LifeCycle charity ride and it's very comfy on week-long 100 miles/day rides.

It's also six pounds(!) lighter than my similar size Dura-Ace 7400 7-s equipped 1987 Waterford Paramount (not that I'm a weight weenie).


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

rx-79g said:


> How are threadless headsets any different in stack than threaded?
> 
> Integrated are different. Is that what you mean?



Nope, threaded headsets include the washer and top nut..plus the top cup is usually taller than it's threadless counterpart.. I can easily add 1cm in height with a threaded headset


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Some will think I'm a nut job, but I've never cared for overly ornate lugs. I like NICE lugs, but that Waterford is *just* on the other side of my "line". There are lugs that are much more ornate than that, I know. 

oneline: I'm not ragging on your bike, please don't take it that way.

I also feel the same way about guns. Super fancy engraving and such is just not me.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

frpax said:


> Some will think I'm a nut job, but I've never cared for overly ornate lugs. I like NICE lugs, but that Waterford is *just* on the other side of my "line". There are lugs that are much more ornate than that, I know.
> 
> oneline: I'm not ragging on your bike, please don't take it that way.
> 
> I also feel the same way about guns. Super fancy engraving and such is just not me.


I haven't seen any pictures of oneline's (onlineflyer's?) bike in this thread, so I guess you're talking about mine. No offense taken; aesthetics are a matter of taste, and the lugs on my Waterford are stainless "Newvex" lugs designed by Richard Sachs and based on the French Nervex Professional lugs used on Schwinn Paramounts, Peugeot PX-10s, Raleigh Internationals, and many other high end racing bikes in the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Choosing the Newvex lugs for my Waterford was a personal decision and a tribute to the seventies chrome Paramounts. I still ride my 1972 chrome Paramount.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

Scooper said:


> I haven't seen any pictures of oneline's (onlineflyer's?) bike in this thread, so I guess you're talking about mine. No offense taken; aesthetics are a matter of taste, and the lugs on my Waterford are stainless "Newvex" lugs designed by Richard Sachs and based on the French Nervex Professional lugs used on Schwinn Paramounts, Peugeot PX-10s, Raleigh Internationals, and many other high end racing bikes in the fifties, sixties, and seventies.


Ah yes. My bad. He was quoting your post and I missed that.


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## OzMatt (Oct 5, 2008)

+1 on the Gios Compact Pro. It is absolutely the best bike I have ever ridden. For the price I paid to buy the frame and spec it up with Campag Centaur and Cinelli parts and everything else, I would have only been left with a De Rosa Neo Primato or Colnago MXL frame. Spending $3000 on a steel frame just seems ridiculous.
I got one of the last ones made in Italy. They have been re-released under the new Gios brand but I believe are now made in China. I'm sure they're as good but I'm glad I got one of the 'hand-made in Italy' ones.
As far as I'm concerned it's a 'new' bike. It's just a known design. If it ain't broke...


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

Saw the tommasni frames at the NAHBS this past weekend along with Roland Della Santa's frames. there are any number of current frame builders that are building light weight lugged frames, choices are limitless but from your list the Bianchi in El/Os tubing gets the nod. Now if there was a Fondriest Status X in the flashy paint the deal would be over.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Dave Hickey said:


> Nope, threaded headsets include the washer and top nut..plus the top cup is usually taller than it's threadless counterpart.. I can easily add 1cm in height with a threaded headset


Oh, you're just talking about top stack.

This depends entirely on the headset. There are low profile threaded headsets, and tall stack threadless.

Neither of which are very important, unless you have a fear of spacers. A steel steerer tube threadless fork can be cut to be taller than a Technomic stem, so what's the problem?


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## Cbookman (Jul 2, 2009)

My second, and only road bike is steel, and lugged. It's a US-made Trek 620. Rides nice enough for me to sit on it for 7+ hours at a time, and is around 20lbs empty, and a big part of that is the Brooks.


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## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

FatTireFred said:


> depends on how old and the fit... older frames tend to have slack STAs and longer TTs...


...and that's a bad thing?!? I have two 1980s UK custom steel frames like this that fit me perfectly, but am having great difficulty finding anything similar that will fit modern components. Everything now is relatively short and steep. Sadly, I cannot afford a Seven, Baum or the like.

Re Italian frames: back in the 1980s I worked for a Sydney company which at various times imported Alan, Casati, Ciocc, Colnago, De Rosa, Detto Pietro, Guerciotti, Masi, Mondonico, Moser, Pogliaghi, Romani, Rossin, Scapin, Tommassini and perhaps one or two more I cannot remember offhand.

I worked on all of these at different times, and IMHO the best made were the Alans, Casatis, De Rosas and Tommassinis, with Detto, Scapin and Masi close behind. By far the worst finished frames were the Colnagos (expensive limited edition versions excepted). IIRC, *all* the Casatis and Tommassinis were immaculate. Some of the other brands were pretty ordinary, although to be fair they probably rode well. 

The cheaper Colnagos consistently required much more milling, facing, taping, reaming, etc to make it possible to assemble them than anything else. But Colnago spent more on sponsorship and advertising so they sold better than most of the others. I really wish I'd bought an SLX Tommassini - you'd have to prise it out of my cold, dead hands. We didn't sell Bianchis but these were also nice frames, though IMO not finished as well as the very best of the others.

We also sold Japanese frames sourced from H. Tano and Company, the best of which were as well made as anything out of Italy, if painted less flamboyantly. I wish I'd kept one or two of those too. (sigh)

To be fair to US builders, some of the most beautifully finished steel frames I've ever seen have come out of the US - as they should do given that they cost more than anything from anywhere else! Like the 953 frame pictured above...


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## OzMatt (Oct 5, 2008)

I'll jump back in here (passionate about steel bikes...). I guess it all comes down to what you want in a bike and why you like/want steel.

When I got into road cycling in the mid 90s, everyone rode steel. I would go into bike shops and drool over Bianchi's, Gios', Colnago's, De Rosa's, the lot. I would tape the Tour and watch it again and again with equal amounts of drool. And then aluminium came in, carbon took over from there and blah, blah, blah. 

But for me, nothing has come close to what must be seen as the final days of professional steel. The chrome, the lugs, the simplicity, the tradition – it all came together for me. Bikes of that era represent a time when I went absolutely nuts for cycling. 

Last year I bought a Gios Compact Pro. It is everything I always wanted in a bike. I didn't get it to be retro; I got it because I like the way steel rides, I like the look of steel bikes and it reminds me of those halcyon days of cycling (for me). It's also lighter than my previous aluminium bike – go figure.

So new steel or old steel? For me it was new but a frame that has been around for about 20 years if I'm not mistaken. Interestingly, since last year when I got the Gios, (and at age 40) I ride faster, more efficiently, more comfortably; am better on the hills, am much better descending (the Gios descends like it's on rails!) and have an all round much more enjoyable cycling experience than I did 15 years ago. Although I do get slowed up occasionally – but that's just because other cyclists are asking me about the Gios.


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## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

We may have sold a few Gios frames back in the day too. Gios were one of the very best made steel frames from what I saw, and a great colour provided you liked blue. Everyone who bought one was very happy, but then nobody complained about any Italian steel frames - not surprising when they'd just spent lots of cash.


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