# so what is the rule on waiting?



## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

We've all seen riders wait for others after crashes. What exactly is the "rule", really a tradition? Has anyone ever seen this actually written or clearly expressed?

Lance waited for Ullrich when he endoed. Ullrich ultimately waited for Lance after the "snag and fall" incident. No one waited for Beloki when he hit the deck, but then he wasn't getting up, and Vino was way out front.

1. Wait for yellow if he crashes.

2. Wait for other contenders, regardless of jersey.

3. Wait (for contenders) as long as everyone agrees, and no one is out front (like Vino last year), which would make waiting a disadvantage for everyone in the group.

4. Other?

Thanks.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*unwritten rules...*

yes, this will be interesting. I don't view it as a "wait" rule as much as a "Don't attack" rule. Ride pace awaiting for the fallen to rejoin before attacking. There is a big difference from waiting vs riding tempo behind others...or riding tempo up a mountain. Only the riders that are there can say if you were riding or racing.

The post ride interviews will be interesting to see if Mayo whines. I missed the crash and first cobbles (stupid work!) but did see George and Eki lead off the cobbles. The question is to work hard then or not? I can see a "reason" (or excuse) for going hard after the crash...the cobbles are still ahead, let's get thru the cobbles safely and then see...too much confusion, didn't know who crashed before the cobbles...etc etc. Easy to explain why the pace was kept high going into the cobbles. 

But once USPS and Tmob came off the cobbles, it seemed to me that they kept the gas on and rode hard. By then they should have known Mayo crashed earlier...the "gentlemanly" thing to do would be to sit up. IMHO, USPS and Tmobile pushed the pace. I had to run back to work (stupid work...why didn't I take the day off?) so tonight I'll be watching who pushed the pace to the second section of cobbles. Gerolstiener seemed to be up there pushing for Hondo, and Quick Step maybe adding a pair of legs. If the "sprinter's teams" were the ones on the front and on the gas, then the USPS boys can just sit in and say that they were "waiting for Mayo to rejoin the group".
But, I bet that USPS Tmob and Phonak did most of the work and punked Mayo. So much for honor.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Whatever rules there are for waiting, there is also the "known obstacle" exception. If you trip over a known obstacle, there are no obligations of any kind on the other riders. The best example of that is Paris-Roubaix. There are flats and crashes all through the race and nobody waits. It's part of the race. Can you imagine if every time a contender got a flat or crashed, everyone in P-R waited? It would be a joke, and a mass sprint into the velodrome.

The causeway in the 1999 TDF, the Passage de Goi or whatever it's called is another example. It was a known obstacle. Everyone knew it would be dangerous. Everyone knew there would be crashes. Everyone knew that if you got caught behind a crash, you were screwed. The smart ones (and the lucky ones) got to the front, avoided the carnage, and never looked back. Just like today.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

*Yeah, but...*

the Yellow Jersey was caught (crashed?), and where was Tyler riding off the front with his arm extended saying "WAIT"!!! I realize about all the known obstacle stuff, but if it's all unspoken rules, they are all open to individual interpretation. Why stop for one Yellow Jersey accident (Armstrong) and not for another (Hushvold sp.)? Doesn't make sense. What if Armstrong or Ulrich were caught behind?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

You have to do apples to apples comparisons. Today there was a known obstacle, the cobbles. Everyone knew that it was going to be dangerous and bad things could happen. Crashes were expected. Flats were also expected, and it could be minutes before the team car gets there. (Some teams positioned helpers standing on the side of road to cover that possibilty.) The best place to be was up front, and if you were up front, you had to fight to hold your spot. A few guys couldn't do that and they ended up in the ditch. And don't blame the cobbles--Mayo crashed before the pave even started.

When Lance crashed last year, it was totally unexpected. There were no known obstacles that he should have avoided or prepared for. It was a bizarre and random thing that caused the crash, not his own actions. The sporting gesture in that situation was to wait, and that's basically what happened. Tradition says you don't take unfair advantage. It does not compare at all to what happened today, or to what happened in 1999. 

If anything, Lance waiting for Ullrich in 2002 is the real sporting gesture, because Ullrich has always been known as a poor descender. He rode off the road for lack of skill, not because of some bizarre and random thing.

Who really knows why these guys do these things? Everyone has a theory. Today I didn't see anything I don't see watching them race the same roads in Paris-Roubaix, and no one waits for anyone in that race. The message here is that more guys have to start racing PR and Flanders so they can get experience racing pave. Spanish riders are famous for avoiding Belgium in March and April, and today it cost one of them dearly.


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## torquecal (Nov 9, 2002)

*Very Different Apples and oranges*

While I agree that we're looking at apples and oranges I see a different bunch. It's one thing for a yellow jersey to hold up and wait for a competitor when the two have a solid lead over the rest of the peloton and are punching it out for the win mano-a-mano. (sportsmanship)


It's quite another thing for a whole bunch of leaders to slow down for one contender when the lead is close and there are say 28 guys within a minute of yellow and five or six of them have a genuine shot at overall victory. 
(silly)


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*3?*

Wasn't the main group still trying to chase down Voigt and De Groot's break?


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Maybe that was the justification?*



czardonic said:


> Wasn't the main group still trying to chase down Voigt and De Groot's break?


 When they were on the cobbles either Phil or Paul stated that they would probably sit up when they reached the pavement again. When they didn't sit up, I don't think there were any more comments from Phil and Paul about taking advantage of Mayo. Based on this, it appears to be a bit of a gray area regarding whether or not the "no attack rule" applied.

Postal, T-Mob & Phonak were all pushing the pace pretty good. Postal almost exclusively on the cobbles. They obviously felt justified in pushing the pace so hard for some reason.

It will be very interesting to see what kind of comments come out of the post race interviews on this one.

Bryan


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

*I've got a feeling though...*

that if it comes to a mountain stage and Armstrong/Ulrich/Hamilton has a problem, the others better not try to get in the way of Mayo to tell him "slow down, the Yellow Jersey's had a mechanical/crash", I'll probably guarantee he'll ride hell bent for election to get his time back. There will be a new unwritten rule, every man for himself.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

*Rules, schmules.*



DougSloan said:


> We've all seen riders wait for others after crashes. What exactly is the "rule", really a tradition? Has anyone ever seen this actually written or clearly expressed?
> 
> Lance waited for Ullrich when he endoed. Ullrich ultimately waited for Lance after the "snag and fall" incident. No one waited for Beloki when he hit the deck, but then he wasn't getting up, and Vino was way out front.
> 
> ...


There was plenty of time for Euskatel to catch up. USPS even had a rider back there (Noval, I think.) If they (Euskatel) was a strong enough team, they _could _have caught the pack, IMHO. They had it closed to less than 2 minutes and then the next section of pave came and they seemingly gave up.


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## snowman3 (Jul 20, 2002)

*I'm no expert on Tour ettiquette*

or spelling for that matter. To me, sportsmanship is where you've made it past all the ruckus and its down to a small group going 1:1. You should win because you are the better athlete, not due to a stroke of bad luck with your opponent at the critical last moment.

They haven't reached the meat of the tour yet. Right now bad luck is "too bad, that's racing". Its a free-for-all right now. No one has earned the right to be granted sportsmanship mercy. The big cats are still fighting to emerge from the storm. Once they have emerged, they will have sportsmanship to one another. In other words, getting past the storm is what earns you some sportsmanship mercy. Surviving the 1st 2 weeks is the right of passage. 

So I don't think they should wait for Mayo or anyone else at this stage of the tour. Maybe LA is a slight exception, but that's only because he is the defending 5 timer. He will be the 1st one granted sportsmanship, followed by Ullrich, then Tyler, then Mayo.


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## russw19 (Nov 27, 2002)

Hawayyan said:


> the Yellow Jersey was caught (crashed?), and where was Tyler riding off the front with his arm extended saying "WAIT"!!! I realize about all the known obstacle stuff, but if it's all unspoken rules, they are all open to individual interpretation. Why stop for one Yellow Jersey accident (Armstrong) and not for another (Hushvold sp.)? Doesn't make sense. What if Armstrong or Ulrich were caught behind?



It's more or less a good sense and respect rule... last year in the Armstrong crash you referrence, Armstrong was in the lead group and taken down by a spectator. It wasn't like he was taken down by a flat, another rider, a team car.... he was taken down by an overenthusiastic 10 year old girl on the side of the road. For that, common courtesy says you wait while he gets up. You don't attack a guy who was taken down by a fan. 

Today, another story... there was a lead group up the road already. 2 riders on a break who had no idea what was going on behind them. There was a crash in the middle of the field (or front of it, who knows) and nobody really knew who all went down in that crash. But it was widely known that the pack would be speeding up and fighting for position in the entrance to the cobbled section. Just like in 99 when everyone knew how dangerous the passage over the Gois was going to be. Riders fell and there was chaos... ended Zulle's race before it got started.Zulle lost 6:03 on that day... he finished second overall 7:37 down. Without getting caught in that fall, who knows how that race would have ended. But the point was that it was a known danger.... it was part of the course, not a spectator or a team car.... and not a single sole criticised the pack for racing, not even Zulle. Today, the pack didn't even wait for the Yellow Jersey... they just hit the cobbles and opened up an even bigger gap. Also, in 99, cross winds played a huge part in the dropped riders not being able to get back on the tail of the pack.... today the cobbles may have been a factor.

There is not a set rule, said or unsaid, but I would be willing to bet that if Mayo went down today because a spectator jumped out in front of him, people would have slowed up if they knew it. Plus much of waiting is simply based on your place in the pecking order of the pros. Lance is surely near or at the top. Cipo is near the top. Mayo... isn't. Ten years ago, if Cipo fell, I bet nobody would have waited, but if Sean Kelly fell.... the pack would have come to a full stop for him. Some riders have that kind of influence on the others.

Russ


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*EE was very disorganized - Mayo started out alone chasing back*



snowman3 said:


> or spelling for that matter. To me, sportsmanship is where you've made it past all the ruckus and its down to a small group going 1:1. You should win because you are the better athlete, not due to a stroke of bad luck with your opponent at the critical last moment.
> 
> They haven't reached the meat of the tour yet. Right now bad luck is "too bad, that's racing". Its a free-for-all right now. No one has earned the right to be granted sportsmanship mercy. The big cats are still fighting to emerge from the storm. Once they have emerged, they will have sportsmanship to one another. In other words, getting past the storm is what earns you some sportsmanship mercy. Surviving the 1st 2 weeks is the right of passage.
> 
> So I don't think they should wait for Mayo or anyone else at this stage of the tour. Maybe LA is a slight exception, but that's only because he is the defending 5 timer. He will be the 1st one granted sportsmanship, followed by Ullrich, then Tyler, then Mayo.


Where the hell was his team when he crashed. They eventually got back to help him, but I was surprised after reading about it all day to see it on tv tonight, that it seemd to take a long time for EE to drop back the guys - then all the shots of them charging off the front looked really eratic moving all over the road. I agre with the poster who said the team should have been able to get him back Heras got back along with Noval.

Lastly, you can't expect Jan to wave off his T-mObile guys after Luz Ardiden in 03 when Mayo and Zubelda sucked Ullrich's wheel all the way up then came around him to take the bonus seconds from him. Jan must have been thinking to himself "paybacks are a ***** (in German though)

-Nik


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## _jim_ (Apr 30, 2003)

*So much for sportsmanship*

After today's great display of sportsmanship by the morons in the front bunch, I really hope to see Armstrong suffer a similar fate, preferably falling hard into a French gutter. What an act of desparation. This guy makes his own rules to suit. Last year, Ullrich was accused of not waiting for Armstrong when he took a fall in the Mountains. Total BS. Today, we see Mayo on the deck, and Lance and co. drop the hammer. And the same thing happened to Zulle in 1999.

Lance wins the TDF six times. OLN hypes it up with more stupid Americans who know squat about cycling. Big deal.


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## torquecal (Nov 9, 2002)

*bull*

sportsmanship in cycling is one on one - not 28 to one....


impossible to ask for, impossible to see, even Mayo has been quoted (on cyclingnews.com) as saying he'd have done the same thing.


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## Inspector Gadget (Apr 5, 2002)

*Damn Straight!*

Lastly, you can't expect Jan to wave off his T-mObile guys after Luz Ardiden in 03 when Mayo and Zubelda sucked Ullrich's wheel all the way up then came around him to take the bonus seconds from him. Jan must have been thinking to himself "paybacks are a ***** (in German though)

-Nik[/QUOTE]

I''d love to say Euskatel got "Euskateled," but they couldn't even ride their own team's wheels efficiently like they did to Jan last year. The sad fact for EE is that as a whole team, it sucks. It has no dimension. Mountains, mountains, mountains. That's their be all and end all. Good for Jan, because revenge is sweet.
The best part is that this makes up for the handicap rule EE would otherwise have used tomorrow in the TTT to stay in contention. Unfortunately, after burning themselves out today, they can only lose a fraction of what they will truly, and should lose.
In two stages, Mayo and EE will likely lose almost 5 1/2 minutes to Lance and Postal.
And Jan is smiling at Mayo, thinking "scheiss Kopf!"
Maybe Lance could have waited. But why should he, or anyone else for that matter, wait for that long, on a FLAT stage, for a team that sucks and can't mobilize quickly enough to assist its own leader? And yes, there was still the breakaway to chase down. If Postal didn't do it, someone else would have.


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## Inspector Gadget (Apr 5, 2002)

*But...*



_jim_ said:


> After today's great display of sportsmanship by the morons in the front bunch, I really hope to see Armstrong suffer a similar fate, preferably falling hard into a French gutter. What an act of desparation. This guy makes his own rules to suit. Last year, Ullrich was accused of not waiting for Armstrong when he took a fall in the Mountains. Total BS. Today, we see Mayo on the deck, and Lance and co. drop the hammer. And the same thing happened to Zulle in 1999.
> 
> Lance wins the TDF six times. OLN hypes it up with more stupid Americans who know squat about cycling. Big deal.


While those "morons" in the front bunch, which included more than just Postal, hammered, why did no one else up there get up front and force the pace back? Instead, they worked with Postal, helping to set the pace. Perhaps EE pissed off more than just Jan last year by "Euskatelling" him on Luz Ardinen. That was the lowest of the low. Mayo deserved what he got.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

_jim_ said:


> After today's great display of sportsmanship by the morons in the front bunch, I really hope to see Armstrong suffer a similar fate, preferably falling hard into a French gutter. What an act of desparation. This guy makes his own rules to suit. Last year, Ullrich was accused of not waiting for Armstrong when he took a fall in the Mountains. Total BS. Today, we see Mayo on the deck, and Lance and co. drop the hammer. And the same thing happened to Zulle in 1999.
> 
> Lance wins the TDF six times. OLN hypes it up with more stupid Americans who know squat about cycling. Big deal.


Dude, why so bitter? It's just a sporting event!


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## mrrun2fast (Apr 14, 2003)

This is from the Floyd Landis Tour Journal:

"Today, there was a pretty big crash today up in the front of the field as we were fighting for position before the cobbles. At that point, it was full speed as everyone was just trying to get to the front. We all knew Mayo had crashed but it didn't really change anything because we were already going flat-out. It was a bad day for Euskaltel today; it's too bad, but it's bound to happen to somebody. It was bad luck for Mayo and I feel bad for Euskaltel, but it can happen to anybody - even Lance."


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## Wayne77 (Oct 17, 2003)

*Anti-American Troll (they come in all flavors!)*



_jim_ said:


> After today's great display of sportsmanship by the morons in the front bunch, I really hope to see Armstrong suffer a similar fate, preferably falling hard into a French gutter. What an act of desparation. This guy makes his own rules to suit. Last year, Ullrich was accused of not waiting for Armstrong when he took a fall in the Mountains. Total BS. Today, we see Mayo on the deck, and Lance and co. drop the hammer. And the same thing happened to Zulle in 1999.
> 
> Lance wins the TDF six times. OLN hypes it up with more stupid Americans who know squat about cycling. Big deal.



Do you live in a freaking fairy land?

Did you watch the race? You make it sound like it was just Postal at the front. FYI: "Lance and Co" had already dropped the hammer in the race to enter the pave first, along with T Mobile, Phonak, etc etc. Mayo has a weak team that couldn't bridge him up to the lead group. If you think the GC and Sprinters teams in the lead group were going to sit up before the next section of cobbles, you're dreaming.

Although some people from the U.S., or anywhere else, can be a bit brash, or even "stupid" at times, you need to lighten up my man. Seriously, you're not going to live another 5 years with that kind of pent up angst. Maybe you should go for a long ride, take a nap, wash your hair, buy some new shoes or something...Or, how about this: Have a problem with people making "their own rules"? Treat yourself to a Happy meal at Mickey Dees! They do it "your way"! Or was that Burger King?...


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## purplepaul (Nov 21, 2002)

I must say I was really surprised that they kept the pace so high even after the cobbles. It seemed hypocritical to take advantage of a crash to isolate Mayo.

After reading some of the posts here, however, I can see another side, especially the payback for EE's sniping Jan last year. But that would have made more sense if Tmobile had been the ones pushing the pace, not Postal. It still seems unfair to me based on Postal's actions. I think Jan had the right, but no one else.

Then again, if Mayo's not complaining, perhaps I'm missing something.


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## Frith (Oct 3, 2002)

torquecal said:


> It's quite another thing for a whole bunch of leaders to slow down for one contender when the lead is close and there are say 28 guys within a minute of yellow and five or six of them have a genuine shot at overall victory.
> (silly)


So by that logic Ullrich shouldn't have waited for Lance last year.
I would say there were a "bunch of leaders" (Ullrich, Hamilton, Mayo, Zubeldia, Vino) All had a "genuine shot at overall victory" all waited for Lance (at the urging of hamilton but none-the-less they all waited). I would say Mayo had a genuine shot at overall victory until yesterday.
I think USPS and Telekom pushing the pace after the cobbles was disgracefull they should have sat in and left it up to Euskatel to take their chances catching up. Mayo still would have finished back of the pack probably but to take advantage of a crash like that stinks.


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## Frith (Oct 3, 2002)

> If Postal didn't do it, someone else would have.


But the fact is that Postal did do it and no one can force the pace like Postal. It would have been easy for them to sit in the pack and let the sprinters teams do the work. Mayo still would have lost a bunch of time and Postal wouldn't come out looking like opportunistic scavangers.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*After watching continuously...*

USPS was going hard for what? 20k? 30K before the cobbles? The race was full on and this was a selection being made. If someone crashes, they are on thier own. USPS kept the gas on between the cobbles and thru the second set. The pace was high and if USPS backed off, they would have been sitting in the middle of the pack waiting for disaster. If the muscle of USPS (or another very strong team) was not controlling the front, a small team or the Spanish or a mix of riders would have been in the front and gotten tired or fought amonst themselves and there would have been whole peloton crashes...USPS control saved a lot of riders from going down.

After the second section of cobbles, USPS did not push the pace much. Other teams were sharing the front of the race. The first group did not go faster...the second group gave up. It could be said that the 'move' ended after the seconds set of cobbles and USPS only followed then...could be said that they waited...but too close to the finish and other teams drove.

So, I'll take back my earlier statement...nothing cheap about the ride. It was a display of flatland riding power to control a very dangerous situation. George and Eki flexed some big muscles. I'll feel bad for Mayo, but his time gap will give his some freedom to attack in the mountains for spectacular stage wins.


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## mgp (Feb 3, 2004)

From what I remember, USPS actually backed off after the second set of cobbles. It looked like they visibly sat up a little and looked around at the other riders. Seemed like their mission was done--get Lance and team through unscathed. That was when the other teams kept the pace high, and USPS then joined in again.


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## Mike Prince (Jan 30, 2004)

*Cobbles there for a reason*

As many stated before the stage, this would not be a boring flat stage and the cobbles would be a tactical advantage for some. At this point of the tour, there are no rules (remember Jalabert taking a potty break and losing the jersey a few years back because no one "waited" for him?), Mayo crashed and was not properly protected by his team. Everyone is trying to take an issue that at it's core has to do with poor race tactics by Euskatel and twisting it into a breach of etiquette against a fringe podium hopeful.

If USPS/Telekom had not kept up the pace, they would have been in the middle of the pack at best in the next section of cobbles, not where they want to be as Armstrong/Ullrich would be vulnerable to crashes. My bet is that one of the smaller French teams, looking for publicity, would have viewed any slowdown as a breakaway opportunity and really blown things apart if the big boys slowed down at all.

This is like golf where the 'professionals' complain about poor conditions at the US or British open because it exposes their weaknesses and makes them look like a weekend hacker. But ironically, in all of the complaining by Hushovd and others yesterday, it was all directed at the race organizers for putting in cobbles, not at USPS/Telekom/Phonak etc. for their race tactics. It's racing, folks. No one ever said it was fair and as professionals these guys should be expected to handle what is there - they all have to ride the same parcours.


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## purplepaul (Nov 21, 2002)

You may be right. However, Phil and Paul kept referring to Postal as taking advantage of Mayo's crash. They weren't criticizing, just mentioning it. Saying that Postal stopped pulling because TM and Phonak were benefitting by having Mayo isolated but they weren't doing any of the work. My take was that they were trying to isolate Mayo. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, except for Jan due to Mayo's actions last year.

I'm not a Lance hater or anything, but I thought the honor code was to wait for contenders who suffer a mechanical, crash or need a nature break unless there is someone up the road who needs to be chased down. Postal could have taken it easy after the second set of cobbles, let Mayo reintegrate, and then fairly easily chased down the two off the front. That may be catering too much to Mayo and his weak team, but I still think if any team pushed the pace it should have been TM.




mgp said:


> From what I remember, USPS actually backed off after the second set of cobbles. It looked like they visibly sat up a little and looked around at the other riders. Seemed like their mission was done--get Lance and team through unscathed. That was when the other teams kept the pace high, and USPS then joined in again.


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*Mayo disagrees*

from ProCycling[Mayo QUOTE:
Asked if he was surprised when his yellow jersey rivals took advantage of his fall rather than waiting for him, Mayo said: “That was the normal thing to do. I would have done the same thing in the place of Armstrong and co.”]

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=191

I can't believe I'm the only guy on this board who saw this article. I think the debate is over. Mayo is big enough to admit it.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*yup*



wongsifu_mk said:


> from ProCycling[Mayo QUOTE:
> Asked if he was surprised when his yellow jersey rivals took advantage of his fall rather than waiting for him, Mayo said: “That was the normal thing to do. I would have done the same thing in the place of Armstrong and co.”]
> 
> http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=191
> ...



And another thing. This was different than Lance's fall on the mountain stage because on the flat, you would expect Mayo's team to be there and tow him up; not possible on a mountain climb, when only the contenders and maybe a few climbers are even close.


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## TechniKal (Feb 26, 2004)

Weren't other riders on other teams able to make it back into the main group? I believe Heras and Leipheimer were both dropped in the same fall (or near the same fall), yet managed to get back into the pack with the help of their teams. 

Mayo's team had reduced the gap considerable at one point, but failed to close it completely, then looked to just give up near the end. Mayo fans should be more upset with his team and the team of Credit Argicole for their lack or organization. The opportunity to bridge was there - they just failed to take advantage of it.


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## justice29 (Jul 11, 2003)

_jim_ said:


> After today's great display of sportsmanship by the morons in the front bunch, I really hope to see Armstrong suffer a similar fate, preferably falling hard into a French gutter. What an act of desparation. This guy makes his own rules to suit. Last year, Ullrich was accused of not waiting for Armstrong when he took a fall in the Mountains. Total BS. Today, we see Mayo on the deck, and Lance and co. drop the hammer. And the same thing happened to Zulle in 1999.
> 
> Lance wins the TDF six times. OLN hypes it up with more stupid Americans who know squat about cycling. Big deal.



This guy has a serious inferiority complex and needs to get a life and loosen up a bit. I hope nobody falls hard in this race. I'm a big LA fan, but was disappointed when Beloki went down last year, he was giving it his all and making the race very interesting.


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## lnin0 (Apr 8, 2002)

I so wish instead of the 5 minutes bull crap interview with Cheryl Crow at the end of yesterdays show they would have went down and asked Lance and the USPS this exact questions. 

You can say USPS drove the pace up and into the pave section to keep Lance out of trouble, fine. But after they came out and it looked as Mayo may be close to rejoining the USPS team pushed harder and kept driving the pace the entire race until the sprinters teams took over. They would have easily been able to relax and get their guys back in front before the second section of cobbles. In the end I think it really shows how scared Lance and all the other GC contenters are of Mayo.

I wouldn't mind any of these 'hit a man when he is down' tactics other than the fact Lance always talks like he is some saint for the one time when he slowed for an already beating Ullrich in the mountains. Lance is always talking about respect but when it comes down to it he appears to only respect those riders he knows are beatable. Otherwise he will get his blows in under the belt if needed.


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## ctxcrossx (Jul 8, 2004)

*I don't think that is true at all*



lnin0 said:


> You can say USPS drove the pace up and into the pave section to keep Lance out of trouble, fine. But after they came out and it looked as Mayo may be close to rejoining the USPS team pushed harder and kept driving the pace the entire race until the sprinters teams took over. They would have easily been able to relax and get their guys back in front before the second section of cobbles. In the end I think it really shows how scared Lance and all the other GC contenters are of Mayo.


I don't think that was the case at all. In each stage so far this year, USPS has been keeping lance out of trouble by staying in the front of the back. They've been doing that to avoid being a Mayo! This is especially true when you have sections of cobbles. Do you know how hard it is to move a team of 9 riders from the back of the pack to the front of the pack? It is very impractical for USPS to try to slow the pace, and then try to get back to the front by the next set of cobbles. That's a huge risk to take to try to help a competitor. I doubt Lance fears Mayo, but he's not going to risk his chances to help a competitor.

Chris


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## dcboomer (Oct 7, 2003)

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember anybody waiting for Museeuw when he flatted in his last (or next to last?) Classics race. Seems to me that when you're on the cobbles (or fighting for position near them) flats and crashes are part of the risks you take. Or is there a different "rule" for stage races as opposed to one day races?????


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## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

*Heres a thought*

While I dont think USPS did anything wrong during Stage 3, maybe they just figured that Euskatel was sure to be "gifted" some time after the TTT so why not go for it on Stage 3 to equalize things a bit. ?


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## torquecal (Nov 9, 2002)

*Agreed*

he shouldn't have slowed. And I'm not entirely sure he did until Hamilton appeared. (but that's a very old argument and I guess only the guys that were actually on that road really know what happened... sorry don't mean to open a can of old worms).


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## ParticleMan (Nov 19, 2002)

*Never the patron*

american one balled wonder wins first tour by riding hard and fast when zulle crashed. this year, behaves the same unsporting way when the Yellow Jersey [ which in previous occasions he claims to respect and uphold by its unwritten rules such as waiting if it crashes] and sporting rivals crashes. Obviously, if he was indeed a true 'patron' he cld have had the whole front group slow down and behave sportingly, knowing that his team is stronger in the ttt and he is better than the rivals in the itt... but instead, he does nothing and he can do nothing. not and never will be a real patron of the tour. he could have set an example as a real champ and man of the tour, but obviously is too calculating and devious.

makes you think of his bad behaviour after last year's tour when he decides that ullrich did not wait for him on luz ardiden. one-balled-boy will never be a true champion like Indurain, Hinault, Greg or even Ullrich. Yes, he will probably win this tour or maybe next year and set the record.. but at what cost to the sport and his image? very poor form.... can he actually ride more than a few select races a year and be a sporting example? he knows he cant and thus resumes to behave the way he does. sumtimes, to win is not everything, as true champions know. lets hope mayo et all give him a taste of his own arrogance and disrespect of the maillot jaune and sporting rivalry.

shame on you Lance. you are strong and a winner, but you have no class


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## ParticleMan (Nov 19, 2002)

*never the patron*

american one balled wonder wins first tour by riding hard and fast when zulle crashed. this year, behaves the same unsporting way when the Yellow Jersey [ which in previous occasions he claims to respect and uphold by its unwritten rules such as waiting if it crashes] and sporting rivals crashes. Obviously, if he was indeed a true 'patron' he cld have had the whole front group slow down and behave sportingly, knowing that his team is stronger in the ttt and he is better than the rivals in the itt... but instead, he does nothing and he can do nothing. not and never will be a real patron of the tour. he could have set an example as a real champ and man of the tour, but obviously is too calculating and devious.

makes you think of his bad behaviour after last year's tour when he decides that ullrich did not wait for him on luz ardiden. one-balled-boy will never be a true champion like Indurain, Hinault, Greg or even Ullrich. Yes, he will probably win this tour or maybe next year and set the record.. but at what cost to the sport and his image? very poor form.... can he actually ride more than a few select races a year and be a sporting example? he knows he cant and thus resumes to behave the way he does. sumtimes, to win is not everything, as true champions know. lets hope mayo et all give him a taste of his own arrogance and disrespect of the maillot jaune and sporting rivalry.

shame on you Lance. you are strong and a winner, but you have no class


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*what an ass*



ParticleMan said:


> ... you have no class


Talk about no class.


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## RedMenace (Jan 28, 2004)

*Amen*



DougSloan said:


> Talk about no class.


Let's hope he never has one of his own little balls removed.


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## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

DougSloan said:


> Talk about no class.


actually, I disagree. Lance is flawed, and often doesn't act in a classy way. he made snide remarks about Jan and Beloki in his latest book, he says something to the effect of Jan going right on racing (when Jan most likely did at least not push the pace), he makes snide remarks about Roberto (in Sports Ill, as well as when Azevedo came over), his whole spat with Halgand (who only attacked because he probably didn't know Lance was down, and it wasn't like he would have won the Dauphine even if he stayed away). Lance often has a lot of class, but often he doesn't.

as for this incident, it was a race, and few sane people would have waited for Mayo (Hushovd, I dunno). I would have pushed the pace myself... but it still would have left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## RedMenace (Jan 28, 2004)

*It was the "one balled wonder" references*



weiwentg said:


> actually, I disagree. Lance is flawed, and often doesn't act in a classy way. he made snide remarks about Jan and Beloki in his latest book, he says something to the effect of Jan going right on racing (when Jan most likely did at least not push the pace), he makes snide remarks about Roberto (in Sports Ill, as well as when Azevedo came over), his whole spat with Halgand (who only attacked because he probably didn't know Lance was down, and it wasn't like he would have won the Dauphine even if he stayed away). Lance often has a lot of class, but often he doesn't.
> 
> as for this incident, it was a race, and few sane people would have waited for Mayo (Hushovd, I dunno). I would have pushed the pace myself... but it still would have left a bad taste in my mouth.


that betrayed a lack of class. Not his opinion of Lance, which is certainly in the realm of a reasonable opinion to have, although I don't share it.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*no class*



ParticleMan said:


> american one balled wonder


Calling anyone that shows a lack of class.

Apparently, it's ok to call someone a "one balled wonder," but not an "@ss".


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## ParticleMan (Nov 19, 2002)

DougSloan said:


> Calling anyone that shows a lack of class.
> 
> Apparently, it's ok to call someone a "one balled wonder," but not an "@ss".


apparently, your american concept of free speech does not matter here when dick sloan is around? oops, i mean doug.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

ParticleMan said:


> apparently, your american concept of free speech does not matter here when dick sloan is around? oops, i mean doug.


who is impeding your free speech? free speech only refers to the right to say something. it doesnt preclude your being called out for being rude, hypocritical, and/or wrong. there was no government act stopping you from posting, nor did Doug call for such action.


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## RedMenace (Jan 28, 2004)

*Sure. You have a right to say one-balled wonder.*



coreyb said:


> who is impeding your free speech? free speech only refers to the right to say something. it doesnt preclude your being called out for being rude, hypocritical, and/or wrong. there was no government act stopping you from posting, nor did Doug call for such action.


We have a right to call you a jackass. Say one-balled wonder as much as you want. We'll call you an ass if we want to. I'm not sure that's the constitutional definition of "freedom of speech," but it's the American way.


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## ParticleMan (Nov 19, 2002)

RedMenace said:


> We have a right to call you a jackass. Say one-balled wonder as much as you want. We'll call you an ass if we want to. I'm not sure that's the constitutional definition of "freedom of speech," but it's the American way.


thanks, jus proves my point on you yanks. guess its ok to call me whatever, but not to good ole texan one ball wonder lance. yes, u got every right to call me that as much as i have to call Lance boy whatever i desire. jus like its fine for one ball to define waiting for rivals in his own special way, the way he is special below the waist. 

funny how this never seems to apply to riders of other nationalities on this forum being called names and insulted by yanks....

no wonder the rest of the world hate you all! no wonder lance is the way he is... guess its no fault of his, being part of 'the American way'.

so, go on and rant and post all you wish, its your american right. have a good day dear yanks!


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*sorry, how ethnocentric of me*



ParticleMan said:


> thanks, jus proves my point on you yanks. guess its ok to call me whatever, but not to good ole texan one ball wonder lance. yes, u got every right to call me that as much as i have to call Lance boy whatever i desire. jus like its fine for one ball to define waiting for rivals in his own special way, the way he is special below the waist.
> 
> funny how this never seems to apply to riders of other nationalities on this forum being called names and insulted by yanks....
> 
> ...


Sorry, after you started the personal insults, I suppose I should have responded in a more British/European fashion with something like "wanker, arse, plonker, pillock, or wazzock." ;-)

Yes, here in America we give you all the rope you want...


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## ParticleMan (Nov 19, 2002)

DougSloan said:


> Sorry, after you started the personal insults, I suppose I should have responded in a more British/European fashion with something like "wanker, arse, plonker, pillock, or wazzock." ;-)
> 
> Yes, here in America we give you all the rope you want...



indeed.... nice to know that you were first to start getting personal too! thanks dick


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## justice29 (Jul 11, 2003)

ParticleMan said:


> american one balled wonder wins first tour by riding hard and fast when zulle crashed. this year, behaves the same unsporting way when the Yellow Jersey [ which in previous occasions he claims to respect and uphold by its unwritten rules such as waiting if it crashes] and sporting rivals crashes. Obviously, if he was indeed a true 'patron' he cld have had the whole front group slow down and behave sportingly, knowing that his team is stronger in the ttt and he is better than the rivals in the itt... but instead, he does nothing and he can do nothing. not and never will be a real patron of the tour. he could have set an example as a real champ and man of the tour, but obviously is too calculating and devious.
> 
> makes you think of his bad behaviour after last year's tour when he decides that ullrich did not wait for him on luz ardiden. one-balled-boy will never be a true champion like Indurain, Hinault, Greg or even Ullrich. Yes, he will probably win this tour or maybe next year and set the record.. but at what cost to the sport and his image? very poor form.... can he actually ride more than a few select races a year and be a sporting example? he knows he cant and thus resumes to behave the way he does. sumtimes, to win is not everything, as true champions know. lets hope mayo et all give him a taste of his own arrogance and disrespect of the maillot jaune and sporting rivalry.
> 
> shame on you Lance. you are strong and a winner, but you have no class


Lance is a true champion, and there is no doubting that. Many of the elite cyclist are arrogant and cocky. I guess Tyler seems to be one of the more polite ones. But Jan, Lance, Beloki, Siemoni, and others are very arrogant, as many elite athletes are. I don't fault them for it, because they obviously have an inner drive that most of us do not.

People will continue to attack Lance, as they do many champions. We love success, then we love to tear successful people down. Also, he is an American dominating a European sport, and it is obvious that America is not so popular to many Europeans at the moment. It's sad statement on relations between countries, but unfortunately true.

ParticleMan (of course, using "Man* is kind of a joke, because it should be ParticleCHILD) is like many disgruntled fans. His country obviously doesn't have a champion contender, so he attacks Lance.

LA is a true champion with as much class as any former champion, and does great honor to the Tour De France. He is a former world champion that has won many races. His prowess in the "Race of Truth" over the last few years is a testament to his strength. Everyone has the option of focusing on the Tour, and Jan Ulrich has done so many times, only to finish second. 

The great majority of his competitors have nothing but the utmost respect for Armstrong, because they know how hard he trains. I have observed Armstrong show glowing praise for Beloki, Mayo, Ulrich, Hamilton, and many other racers.

The pro cycling community is like a disfunctional family of sorts, they are all very familiar with one another, and will have "spats". Does the fact that they get upset with one another from time to time mean they have no class? Of course not, and to think otherwise is simply childish. They are afterall, human, regardless of their exploits on the bike.

Regards,

John


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*huh?*



ParticleMan said:


> indeed.... nice to know that you were first to start getting personal too! thanks dick


You must be assuming that calling someone a "one balled wonder" isn't personal? Sorry, pardner, 'round here them's fightin wurds.


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## RedMenace (Jan 28, 2004)

*I'm think more along the lines of "putz."*



DougSloan said:


> Sorry, after you started the personal insults, I suppose I should have responded in a more British/European fashion with something like "wanker, arse, plonker, pillock, or wazzock." t...


But that's just me.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

ParticleMan said:


> thanks, jus proves my point on you yanks. yada yada yada. so, go on and rant and post all you wish, its your american right. have a good day dear yanks!


perhaps you could respond to my post which directly shows that your crys of "freedom of speech" are misguided.

the fact of the matter is you are being hypocritical. you are hurling personal insults toward LA, but object to anyone else throwing personal insults your way. at least you are here to defend yourself.


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## ParticleMan (Nov 19, 2002)

coreyb said:


> perhaps you could respond to my post which directly shows that your crys of "freedom of speech" are misguided.
> 
> the fact of the matter is you are being hypocritical. you are hurling personal insults toward LA, but object to anyone else throwing personal insults your way. at least you are here to defend yourself.



hey, go ahead and gurl all you wish yanks. interesting that 'one ball wonder' is a personal insult to doug - he has only one now??? 

i got an idea - sincve you are all so concerend about this rahter than lance's sporting ethics or lack off... Donate a testicle to Lance! lets start a foundation - save a ball for lance! or have a ball for lance! ha ha


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## _jim_ (Apr 30, 2003)

Keep the septics in their place Particleman. Good one lol. Lance is such a champ. You should try living here. It's like smurf land. I just love the fact that "foreign scum" like me is taking away jobs from Yanks and taking care of the their women too. Of course, we imports do a better job on both counts. Married yank women are the best. They love us "foreign scum". Married yank women... they don't swell, and they don't tell heh heh heh.

Well, better go. Time to start the Hummer SUV, suck down a few cheeseburgers, drive 40 miles to the ride around the corner, not using a turn signal (blinker) anywhere of course.


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## mrrun2fast (Apr 14, 2003)

America is the land of immigrants. Have you been to California lately? 

Congratulations on living the American dream!


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## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

> You can say USPS drove the pace up and into the pave section to keep Lance out of trouble, fine. But after they came out and it looked as Mayo may be close to rejoining the USPS team pushed harder and kept driving the pace the entire race until the sprinters teams took over. They would have easily been able to relax and get their guys back in front before the second section of cobbles. In the end I think it really shows how scared Lance and all the other GC contenters are of Mayo.
> 
> I wouldn't mind any of these 'hit a man when he is down' tactics other than the fact Lance always talks like he is some saint for the one time when he slowed for an already beating Ullrich in the mountains. Lance is always talking about respect but when it comes down to it he appears to only respect those riders he knows are beatable. Otherwise he will get his blows in under the belt if needed.


I for one agree with the above. If _anyone_ had the "right" to punk Mayo, it woulda been Jan & TMob.


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