# SL4 Pro frame OSBB and campy ultra torque crank



## kondre2000

If I get the SL4 frameset, its going to come with the OSBB. What kind of adapter will I need to get my campy ultra torque cranks to work?

thanks

Kevin


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## bikerjulio

You need either a 42MM (for regular BB 30) or 46mm (for pressfit BB30) pair of these, I'm not sure what Spec frames use now:

Campagnolo BB30 UT Integrated Cups (Press Fit)


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## tommyturbo

I was wondering when I would see this post. Check with your Specialized dealer. Using any alloy adapter inside the OSBB voids your frame warranty. I don't know what this means for people who want to use Shimano, etc, but it means Campagnolo UT cranks are a no-no.

I don't know what Specialized was thinking when they decided not to offer a threaded BB. Oh wait, yes I do, they want you to use (and buy) only the Specialized crank. What marketing!

Some people will sell their Campy Super Record crank and use a Specialized crank. Many others will find another bike that will let them use the Campy crank. What marketing!

I was ready to pull the trigger on a 2012 S-Works Tarmac SL4 frameset if and when they release a color scheme I like better (personal preference, but I don't like any of the 2012 schemes) than my 2009 S-Works Tarmac SL2 in raw carbon. Not likely to do that now.


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## ukbloke

tommyturbo said:


> I don't know what this means for people who want to use Shimano, etc


They will use the Delrin adapters, such as those made by Wheels Manufacturing. Specialized includes some adapters with the SL-4 frame-sets (see pictures on their web-site), and presumably they are also made of some material like Delrin rather than alloy. Maybe a similar solution will become available for Compagnolo cranks?


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## tommyturbo

Are the Specialized Delrin adapters (I wasn't aware that Specialized provided these) designed to be used with one specific manufacturer's crank? Which cranksets will they work with?


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## ukbloke

tommyturbo said:


> Are the Specialized Delrin adapters (I wasn't aware that Specialized provided these) designed to be used with one specific manufacturer's crank? Which cranksets will they work with?


I don't know that the Specialized ones are made of Delrin, but presume they are not alloy because of what you said. My guess is that they will ship adapters from PF30 to Shimano and Shimano-compatible cranks. A recent poster with the 2012 Allez frame-set posted about the included Specialized alloy adapters from BB30, and I presume that they were to Shimano cranks.


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## pdainsworth

The included adapters are, in fact, alloy, and are only for Shimano crank sets. I am using the Wheels adapters for my Force cranks. I had to add an additional 2mm spacer, but it seems to be working ok, so far.


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## kondre2000

crap, i was hoping for a much better cooperation from specialized with people with existing components.


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## mpower13

I think all the OSBB frames will not work with Campy cranks. It will only work with BB30 or Shimano with adapter included in the frame.


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## purdyd

tommyturbo said:


> Are the Specialized Delrin adapters (I wasn't aware that Specialized provided these) designed to be used with one specific manufacturer's crank? Which cranksets will they work with?


last year the s-works SL3 came with the delrin adapters and they made the bottom bracket into essentially a pressfit 30 bottom bracket which was compatible with any BB30 bearing and crankset

the SL3 pro used the metal BB30 shell 

OSBB does not mean that there is a metal shell - not really sure what it means 

this year it is not clear what specialized has done for the SL4 line pro and s-works but there apears in the picture to be some sort of adaptor that comes with the frame presumably for shimano cranks

i notice with the mountain bike frames they are showing a PF30 threaded adaptor


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## ukbloke

purdyd said:


> last year the s-works SL3 came with the delrin adapters and they made the bottom bracket into essentially a pressfit 30 bottom bracket which was compatible with any BB30 bearing and crankset


These are what I've been calling press-fit cups.

Thanks for the info.


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## purdyd

ukbloke said:


> These are what I've been calling press-fit cups.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


i guess specialized calls them OSBB press in cups

http://service.specialized.com/coll...t---S-Works-Road-Carbon-Instruction-Guide.pdf

from the pictures it appears that the pro maintains the alloy bottom bracket and the s-works is carbon with press in cups

the s-works now comes with a seatpost, adaptors for Shimano? and also ceramic bearings?

that would account for some of the price increase


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## ukbloke

purdyd said:


> from the pictures it appears that the pro maintains the alloy bottom bracket and the s-works is carbon with press in cups


Well spotted - the text also says "carbon OSBB" for S-Works and just "OSBB" for Pro.



> the s-works now comes with a seatpost, adaptors for Shimano? and also ceramic bearings? that would account for some of the price increase


Putting on my cynic's hat again ... the S-Works frame-set used to come with a seat-post, and then they dropped it and kept the price the same (stealth price increase). Now it is back and the price is way up. The adapters are about a $30 value. Ceramic bearings must have one of the biggest price mark-ups in all of cycling. A couple of years back you could get an S-Works module for $3300 as I recall - so as well as the frame, fork and seat-post you got the cranks too!


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## Rugergundog

(see other thread).
I have a 2011 SL3 with the external cup BB and Ultegra Crank. The frame is being warranty replaced by Specialized with the 2012 SL4 pro. I see (and read this post) that the SL4 only comes in OSBB. So am i correct in interpreting that you guys are saying that my new SL4 frame will be shipped with some sort of adapters/spacer/etc....so my 2011 Shimano 6700 Ultegra crank will indeed work on this frame?


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## ukbloke

Rugergundog said:


> (see other thread).
> I have a 2011 SL3 with the external cup BB and Ultegra Crank. The frame is being warranty replaced by Specialized with the 2012 SL4 pro. I see (and read this post) that the SL4 only comes in OSBB. So am i correct in interpreting that you guys are saying that my new SL4 frame will be shipped with some sort of adapters/spacer/etc....so my 2011 Shimano 6700 Ultegra crank will indeed work on this frame?


Yes, that's exactly right - if you look at the 2012 Pro frame-set on the Specialized web-site and zoom in on the BB you will see the adapters. With the press-in cups, BB30 bearings, and adapter installed your Shimano cranks will go straight in.


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## kondre2000

The Specialized rep I talked to on the phone confirmed that the SL4 pro has an AL BB shell, the Sworks has a carbon shell. He also said that a shop that is not afraid to do the work to retro fit, the ultra torque will go in, but that its not suggested. He did not say doing it would void anything though.

So, instead of dumping the $ on a SL4 and new cranks, I will ponder the idea of getting a used S-works SL3 tarmac with standard BB so the ultra torque's can go right in. probably save some $ in the process too, maybe enough to throw in a pair of AC 420 aero wheels.


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## tommyturbo

OK, I found this crank compatibility chart:

http://service.specialized.com/coll...m-Bracket---Oversized-Road-Bottom-Bracket.pdf

The alloy OSBB shell is OK with Campy Ultra-Torque, but as I was told by a dealer, the carbon OSBB is not OK. The same dealer told me that the 2012 Pro has a carbon shell. Even if it did have an alloy shell, I'm not about to trade my S-Works in for a Pro in a color I don't like at all.

I have to talk to Specialized Customer Sevice regarding my new 2012 Epic Expert, and I am going to ask them why they decided to exclude Campagnolo. I know lots of people with high end bikes (muself included) who insist on Campy. It seems like Specialized will lose a few sales, but they are so dominant now, perhaps they don't care?

IMHO, the bicycle industry sure has made a mess of bottom brackets standards (or lack thereof).


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## purdyd

tommyturbo said:


> OK, I found this crank compatibility chart:
> 
> http://service.specialized.com/coll...m-Bracket---Oversized-Road-Bottom-Bracket.pdf
> 
> The alloy OSBB shell is OK with Campy Ultra-Torque, but as I was told by a dealer, the carbon OSBB is not OK. The same dealer told me that the 2012 Pro has a carbon shell. Even if it did have an alloy shell, I'm not about to trade my S-Works in for a Pro in a color I don't like at all.
> 
> . I know lots of people with high end bikes (muself included) who insist on Campy. It seems like Specialized will lose a few sales, but they are so dominant now, perhaps they don't care?
> ).


it appears that camp ultra torque bb30 adaptor relies on the groove that the BB30 clip goes into and the OSBB press in cup does not have that

you can still run campy, you just can't run the campy crank - the specialized s-works crank is pretty nice and you could use the campy chain rings

if you have enough money to buy the frame and own top end campy stuff, i imagine having to use the specialized crank is not such a huge problem


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## purdyd

ukbloke said:


> Putting on my cynic's hat again ... the S-Works frame-set used to come with a seat-post, and then they dropped it and kept the price the same (stealth price increase). Now it is back and the price is way up. The adapters are about a $30 value. Ceramic bearings must have one of the biggest price mark-ups in all of cycling. A couple of years back you could get an S-Works module for $3300 as I recall - so as well as the frame, fork and seat-post you got the cranks too!


hard to disagree with that


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## vaetuning

*Super Record Ti crank and S-works OSBB frame*

Hi there

I bought the Roubaix S-works OSBB frame (it means Over Size Bottom Bracket by the way), without knowing that there would be problems mounting my Super Record Ti crankset in that frame.

I'm a heavy rider, and as I initially mounted the crank set with the "delrin" rings and the Campy press fit cups, it semed a little less stiff, than when mounted with BSA cups.

Sure enough, there was chain rub on the front derallieur, and after my first 90km spin, the press fit cups had turned inside the OSBB bracket - not much point in having some of the best ceramic bearings in the world, if you actually rotate the whole setup when stumping hard in the pedals!!

I thought it over, and finally made up my mind, and went to a machine shop, which helps me occasionally when I get an idea for something.

I hade them machine me a set of 7075 alu cups, which protrude 3cm into the OSBB from each side, the cups was machined with BSA threads, and I could easily install my Campy BSA cups in them.

I had the outside diameter on the cups made in 46.3mm, which makes for a good snug fit.

Before installation of the cups, I contacted the shop where I bought the frame, who where aware of my problems, and I mailed them some pictures and measurements of the cups, I have had made.

They approved on them and, sent me back a mail, stating, that if any problems should occur with the frame / alu cubs, I would still have full warranty on the framekit.

After installation of the cups, the chain rub has disapeared, and the crank set feel as stiff as usually.

I have ridden this frame most of this summer without any problems whatsoever, and I cant think of any other frame to wish for - it is superb!!:thumbsup:


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## tommyturbo

As usual, it seems like there are many different stories, all from Specialized. As I mentioned, I am going to call them. If it were me, I would not accept any dealer's OK regarding frame warranty regarding a modified BB or shell. I would insist on confirmation direct from Specialized.

I'm not sure how Campagnolo chainrings would fit a Specialized crank, as the Campy rings have an asymmetric chainring bolt pattern (for compact, one bolt is set at 112 bolt center, not 110, and the 53/39 rings are different as well.

Having to use the Specialized crank is not a "huge problem," as I am sure that they are of high quality. My point (and problem) is that I love my Campy crankset, want to use it, and Specialized has made that impossible with their striving to spec proprietary parts.

For my money, the whole OSBB systems with all of the different standards are confusing and a pain in the ass to deal with.


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## tommyturbo

I talked with Specialized Customer Service. According to the person I spoke with, the Campy 68x42 adapter used with an OSBB should not void the frame warranty, provided it is installed correctly. The 68x46 adapter will not work. According to the rep, the SL4 is over 100g lighter than the SL3 as well as stiffer torsionally. Whether a mere mortal could feel the difference is another question.

If the S-Works Tarmac SL4 were offered in a frame color I liked, I might go for it and use the adapters with my Campy crankset. Or I might try and pick up a threaded 2011 frame and save some money. Better yet, I might just keep my 2009 S-Works Tarmac SL2. It's been a fantastic bike.

Has anyone used the 68x42 adapters with the OSBB frame?


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## tommyturbo

I talked with Specialized Customer Service (again) and Quality Control. QC is OK with using the 68x42 Campy adapter inside of the Specialzed (he called them nylon) 46mm cups that can be special ordered by a dealer. He said that it will work fine (although another posted apparently did this and had a problem). QC stopped short of agreeing to send me a letter that it was OK to use the Campy crank in this fashion. I was told that I would have to talk with the Warranty Department.

After careful thought, I ordered one of two remaining 2011 S-Works Tarmac SL3 frames in the color I wanted in the size I needed. Selling my 2009 S-Works Tarmac SL2 frame to a friend makes for an easy swap.

For others considering an SL4 (or any other OSBB frame) used with a Campy UT crank, it sounds like it will work, and it's highly unlikely that you will have any problems.


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## purdyd

tommyturbo said:


> I talked with Specialized Customer Service (again) and Quality Control. QC is OK with using the 68x42 Campy adapter inside of the Specialzed (he called them nylon) 46mm cups
> 
> For others considering an SL4 (or any other OSBB frame) used with a Campy UT crank, it sounds like it will work, and it's highly unlikely that you will have any problems.


well, specialized documentation refers to them as Delrin (Acetal) cups and in my opinion, as I work at lot with Delrin, that is what they are.

http://cdn.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/pdf/manuals/IG0227 2010_SL3_Carbon_Crank_Installation_r4.pdf

perhaps they are now nylon 

They also come with the frame, no need to order. they also ship you a pair if you buy a specialized carbon crankset

it says the campy UT adaptor works with PF30 and they should work if that is the case


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## tommyturbo

I was told by Specialized that the adapters that come with the frame do not work with the Campy UT, and that a different adapter must be ordered.


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## tommyturbo

Specialized Customer Service was nice enough to send me this follow up email:

"Hi there. We have a follow up on the cup situation. Campy is still tricky. A couple of calls to engineers and emails to other folks has turned up this info…

Okay....I just spoke to Mike in the bike shop in Mo Hill. He said that it sounds like the PF30 cups (CR0394) is what this guy needs. It also sounds like a brand new part as well, so no one has tried it. They are going to order some up and give it a shot.

The BB30 (CR0392) cups will not work, as the cups will not press in far enough into the bb. Those are no bueno and would need to be machined.

If he has to have them now, tell him the CR0394. If he can wait a little while (like a week), we should have an official answer."

It's nice to hear that Specialized is trying to work out a solution. I just wish they had done it before they introduced the S-Works Tarmac SL4.


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## CRSturdivant

I am right in the middle of trying to install my 2011 Record 11 UT crankset in my 2011 Roubaix S-Works with a carbon 46mm OSBB. I ordered FP30 cups (CR0394) last week and just got them this morning. I pressed the cups into the carbon OSBB with no problem, they fit nicely. I then started installing the crankset, here's where I ran into probems. It turns out that the width between the cups is too short using the FP30 cups by about 5-6mm. This means that when I tightened the lock bolt in the UT crankset, there is a good amount of play. The crankset slides back and forth in the bottom bracket. This stupid BB30 crap is SUCH a pain... why can't Specialized just keep it simple?


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## tommyturbo

Specialized, like many manufacturers, would prefer you buy and use their proprietary crankset. I am an incredibly loyal Specialized rider; quite frankly, I think they make the best bikes in the world. Nevertheless, I am very disappointed with the lack of a threaded BB shell option. Regardless of what you think of BB30, BB90, BBBright, BB86.5 (I'm sure I'm leaving a few out); the fact that neither Shimano nor Campagnolo makes a variation must means something.

I just ordered a 2011 S-Works Tarmac SL3 instead of the 2012 SL4. I wanted to get one of the last threaded BB models, and I do not want internal cables. Not everyone will be as loyal to the brand as I am, and I think Specialized will lose some business.

Specialized Customer Service needs to hear from you, as they are working on a solution for the Campy UT crankset that seems to involve the CR3094 part.


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## CRSturdivant

I'm with you tommy, I am 25 years old and I have basically never ridden anything other than Specialized since I was little.

I have an idea that involves using some shims behind the bearings on the UT crankset arms themselves to bridge the gap I need. I am fairly confident it will work, but I need to wait until tomorrow when i can go to a bike shop and get the bearings pulled off (seeing as I don't have the correct tools to accomplish it myself).

I will be contacting Specialized on Monday and see what they have to say about all of this, and I will most certainly be updating my progress with the issue on this thread.


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## purdyd

tommyturbo said:


> Specialized, like many manufacturers, would prefer you buy and use their proprietary crankset.
> 
> Regardless of what you think of BB30, BB90, BBBright, BB86.5 (I'm sure I'm leaving a few out); the fact that neither Shimano nor Campagnolo makes a variation must means something.
> 
> Specialized Customer Service needs to hear from you, as they are working on a solution for the Campy UT crankset that seems to involve the CR3094 part.


the OSBB on the S-works works fine with any BB30 crankset

what you are seeing here is an evolution to pressfit bottom brackets in general

i think the companies that want you to buy their proprietary crankset are the crankset manufacturers

Shimano has BB86

to me, a better question is why don't shimano and campy have a real BB30 option?


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## purdyd

CRSturdivant said:


> I am right in the middle of trying to install my 2011 Record 11 UT crankset in my 2011 Roubaix S-Works with a carbon 46mm OSBB. I ordered FP30 cups (CR0394) last week and just got them this morning. I pressed the cups into the carbon OSBB with no problem, they fit nicely. I then started installing the crankset, here's where I ran into probems. It turns out that the width between the cups is too short using the FP30 cups by about 5-6mm. This means that when I tightened the lock bolt in the UT crankset, there is a good amount of play. The crankset slides back and forth in the bottom bracket. This stupid BB30 crap is SUCH a pain... why can't Specialized just keep it simple?


that sounds more like a problem with UT adaptors vice the cups

and usually when you get a BB30 crankset from say SRAM, you get some washers to put between the crank and the bearing which along with the wave washer will adjust out any play

and for what it is worth, with the specialized or SRAM red BB30 crankset you don't need to use these washers on the s-works OSBB frames


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## tommyturbo

"a better question is why don't shimano and campy have a real BB30 option? "

That's a question I have as well. The answer for Campy might be that they are a small company and re-tooling would be a big commitment. Shimano on the other hand, could easily produce any number of variations of BB30.

I hear of many problems with BB30 installation and bearings. It certainly looks like pressfit BB's are here to stay, but that doesn't mean I want one. I want a choice.


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## tommyturbo

CRSturdivant (or anyone else), did you ever get an answer from Specialized as to how to install your Campagnolo UT crankset into the OSBB frame?


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## CJN

*Campy Super Record Cranks fit Venge*

I have a Specialized Venge and have installed a 2011 Campy Super Record crank set by using the specialized BB cups that came with the frame and installing the 42 mm Campy bearings inside those cups. I have 900 miles on the bike and it works perfectly. The 46mm UltraTorque bearings will NOT work.


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## Bensamz

Howdy guys,

Anyone make any more headway with this? Has anyone tried using the Campy BB30 adapter cups?

I'd like to order the SL4 Pro frame and run Chorus with it, but all this uncertainty makes me nervous.

I called Specialized, but got a rather simplified and uncertain response.

Thanks!


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## kbwh

Campagnolo lists both BB30 68x42 and BB30 68x46 in their OS cup inventory.

If the 42 mm fits a Venge it should fit a SL4 too, shouldn't it?


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## tommyturbo

The 42 is what you want for any Specialized OSBB. Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out.


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## Bensamz

I spoke with Specialized and my local Specialized dealer, and they both said the Campy adapter would work. I won't have the frame for a few months, but I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## roadworthy

This thread is kind of hanging and since there is so much lack of clarity exchanged, I want to add a few points and clear a few things up. I will preface and say, I am a Campy guy.

- Specialized has three different BB's.
- 2 BB's are called OSBB aka over sized bottom bracket and 1 is a conventional english BSA threaded BB.
- Specialized Pro frames...latest ones are OSBB = BB30. To the uninitiated, BB30 is a carbon shell (doesn't have to be) that has insert molded 42mm ID alloy cups.
- All Specialized Sworks frames including the new SL4 is also coined OSBB but is PF-30. What is PF-30? It is a carbon BB with a single 46mm ID through bore hole.

OK...So the new SL4 Sworks is PF-30. How do you mount a Campy UT crank? It is not recommended to to use Specialized PF-30 cups and then use Campy BB30 adapter cups. This is a kluge. It may work if all moons are aligned and you shim the crank to get enough preload to keep the cups from falling out, but not an ideal marriage.
So, what to do with a PF-30 BB if you want to run a Campy UT crank? See below. Just like for the BB-30, Campy makes 'alloy' cups that press into the single 46mm ID through bore shell. These cups in effect will end up laterally in the same position as threaded Campy UT cups used on a BSA BB. Crank installation is straight forward after that.

That said, I will impart this engineer's opinion about using a Campy UT crank on a BB-30 or PF-30 frameset. Campy offers their adapter cups for both frame styles to stay in the game and sell more cranks. No they haven't come to the party in lock step with the plethora of integrated BB's on the market by offering a specific crank that can be used without adaptors. Is it a good match? No. Many have struggled with this application. Why? Because the load path tends to want to peel the cups from the BB. As mentioned, the cups in effect are in the same position as threaded cups, i.e. 'outboard' of the bores they are pressed into. It is OK to have bearings outboard of a BB if the cups are retained by threads...but a much more challenged interface for a press. For conventional BB30 and PF-30 applications, bearings are vertically in alignment with press bores and hence there isn't a lateral moment aka torque on the cups to try and pry them out. My recommendation? Don't run a Campy UT crank in a PF-30 or BB30 bike.
Oh you might get it to mount, but many have struggled with them. To restate, I am a Campy guy and will continue to run a Campy drivetrain...it will just be without a Campy crank if mounting to a BB30 or PF30 bike. Will I fight BB30 or PF30? No, I will embrace it as I see the merit. Is this a big deal? Not to me. I want to run a crank designed for the BB in question to optimize not only weight and stiffness, but most importantly, functionality...which is lacking when using a Campy UT in an integrated BB.
My thoughts...


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## bikerjulio

I too had misgivings about Campy BB30 pressed in cups. All I can say is that I have used them in a Cannondale SS for over a year now - and I'm about 200 # and the cranks are 180 mm, and there have been no problems.


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## roadworthy

bikerjulio said:


> I too had misgivings about Campy BB30 pressed in cups. All I can say is that I have used them in a Cannondale SS for over a year now - and I'm about 200 # and the cranks are 180 mm, and there have been no problems.


What kind of BB is your Cannondale SS?...carbon shell...or other material? BB-30 or PF-30?


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## Bensamz

I am currently having my bike built up by Turin in Denver, CO, USA. I chose them because they are dealers for both Specialized and Campagnolo, and have an reputation around here as an excellent, if expensive repair shop.

Their opinion about using the Campy adapters for BB30 is that it is actually superior to standard BB30. Their reasons for this are that BB30 bearing wear out really quickly due to alignment issues, and that they produce more mechanical drag as a result as well.

The potential drawback to the Campy adapter is that I have heard it will begin to creak after a bit. If that turns out to be the case, I will most likely opt for an adapter that will allow me to use the standard screw in BB cups on the BB30 shell. A friend has done this with his Shimano cranks on the Specialized.

Anyhow I'll have the bike next week and report back then.


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## roadworthy

Bensamz said:


> I am currently having my bike built up by Turin in Denver, CO, USA. I chose them because they are dealers for both Specialized and Campagnolo, and have an reputation around here as an excellent, if expensive repair shop.
> 
> Their opinion about using the Campy adapters for BB30 is that it is actually superior to standard BB30. Their reasons for this are that BB30 bearing wear out really quickly due to alignment issues, and that they produce more mechanical drag as a result as well.
> 
> The potential drawback to the Campy adapter is that I have heard it will begin to creak after a bit. If that turns out to be the case, I will most likely opt for an adapter that will allow me to use the standard screw in BB cups on the BB30 shell. A friend has done this with his Shimano cranks on the Specialized.
> 
> Anyhow I'll have the bike next week and report back then.


If you are quoting your local bike shop, they don't know what they are talking about. BB30 is solid....its the installation that often gets botched. If the lbs is getting premature failures with BB30, they need to look no further than themselves...or they are using crappy BB30 bearings aka ABEC-1's. BB30 with proper grease internals equivalent to what Campy and most crank manufactuers suggest will do 15-20,000 miles.
A Campy crank on a PF-30 BB like you are building is at best a kluge. Only reason for Campy adapters is so they can sell their cranks on bikes with integrated BB's but their design is much poorer than any BB-30 set up. Bore or bearing misalignment you mention will affect Campy adapters as much as any BB30's. It is a non issue and baloney. Further a PF30 BB like you have is uniform thru bore with almost perfect cylindricity so again a non issue. Of all your options, running Campy cranks with PF30 adapter is your worse option. Inserting your PF30 BB with a threaded shell will be more robust and solid but it defeats the purpose of BB30 aka weight savings and stiffness. Any BB30 crank...pick one is better than running Campy cranks on a BB30 or PF30 bike. You are hearing that from a Campy guy...what I ride...just built a Roubaix with threaded BB with Campy Chorus UT cranks and it is flawless...but the crank is designed for a threaded BB.
If the frame I just built were BB30 or PF30, I would consider one of many alternative cranks. FWIW Shimano cranks work much better than Campy on BB30/PF30 even though like Campy they are designed for a threaded BB. This is because Shimano cranks would use BB30 bearing with adapters...much better than Campy adapters which use the smaller bearings and tend to peel away from the frame because the bearings are located outboard of the press bores.
Good luck. You have a lot of options...some good and others not so much.


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## vaetuning

*NO solution for installing Campy cranks in Specialized 46mm OSBB frames*

Hi There

I just wanted to let you know, that there is no correct / usable solution for mounting the Campy cranks in 46mm OSBB Specialized frames as of yet!!

Not from Specialized nor from Campagnolo!!

The PF30-46 press fit cups from Campy will NOT work!!

Not due to them being a heavier solution or anything like that - but simply because the 46mm OSBB frames are "only" 62mm wide at the BB and not 68mm, for which the cups was made in the first place!!

So when you try using them, you'll end up with a huge amount of lateral play!!

The "lack" of width on the Specialized 46mm OSBB frame, is also the reason why the Delrin / 42mm pressfit Campy cup combo does not work either.:mad2:

I have contacted Campy tech lab about this, and here's their answer;

Dear Mr. Jacobsen, new SPECIALIZED frames have a specific over – size frames which have different measures from the current OS-FIT cups that we have in our current range. We have no solution for you, I’m sorry.
Cordiali Saluti/ Best RegardsFederico Fiori Service Center fax 0444/225400Italy

I then asked them if they would consider making a solution....;

Dear Mr. Jacobsen, I’m not able to tell you at the moment; maybe in the future. Cordiali Saluti/ Best RegardsFederico Fiori Service Center fax 0444/225400Italy

So, as you see no compability!! - furthermore, somebody posted a link for a Specialized compability chart earlier in this thread (the link does not work any longer), which clearly stated NO compability with Campy UT cranks & 46mm OSBB frames...!!:cryin:

I'll stick with my own solution for now, and hope they'll make a lightweight solution in the nearby future.

For now, I have had a set of 7075 alu cups machined, which protrude 3cm into the OSBB from each side for added stability and stiffness, the cups are bored out and then machined with BSA threads inside, and I installed my standard Campy English BSA cups in them.

I had the outside diameter on the cups made in 46.2mm, which makes for a good snug pressfit - they have'nt moved a mm in the entire season!!

This works - and have been for the entire summer of 2011 - look at my previous post on page 1 of this thread.

Granted - it is not the lightest of solutions, but not that heavy either - I used 7075 high grade alu, which is very light in itself.

I'll be happy to post pictures of the adapters installed in my frame if anybody are interested!!:thumbsup:

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## PJ352

vaetuning said:


> ... somebody posted a link for a Specialized compability chart earlier in this thread (the link does not work any longer), which clearly stated NO compability with Campy UT cranks & 46mm OSBB frames...


I believe this is the guide you're referring to..
http://service.specialized.com/coll...m-Bracket---Oversized-Road-Bottom-Bracket.pdf


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi There
> 
> I just wanted to let you know, that there is no correct / usable solution for mounting the Campy cranks in 46mm OSBB Specialized frames as of yet!!
> 
> Not from Specialized nor from Campagnolo!!
> 
> The PF30-46 press fit cups from Campy will NOT work!!
> 
> Not due to them being a heavier solution or anything like that - but simply because the 46mm OSBB frames are "only" 62mm wide at the BB and not 68mm, for which the cups was made in the first place!!
> 
> So when you try using them, you'll end up with a huge amount of lateral play!!
> 
> The "lack" of width on the Specialized 46mm OSBB frame, is also the reason why the Delrin / 42mm pressfit Campy cup combo does not work either.:mad2:
> 
> I have contacted Campy tech lab about this, and here's their answer;
> 
> Dear Mr. Jacobsen, new SPECIALIZED frames have a specific over – size frames which have different measures from the current OS-FIT cups that we have in our current range. We have no solution for you, I’m sorry.
> Cordiali Saluti/ Best RegardsFederico Fiori Service Center fax 0444/225400Italy
> 
> I then asked them if they would consider making a solution....;
> 
> Dear Mr. Jacobsen, I’m not able to tell you at the moment; maybe in the future. Cordiali Saluti/ Best RegardsFederico Fiori Service Center fax 0444/225400Italy
> 
> So, as you see no compability!! - furthermore, somebody posted a link for a Specialized compability chart earlier in this thread (the link does not work any longer), which clearly stated NO compability with Campy UT cranks & 46mm OSBB frames...!!:cryin:
> 
> I'll stick with my own solution for now, and hope they'll make a lightweight solution in the nearby future.
> 
> For now, I have had a set of 7075 alu cups machined, which protrude 3cm into the OSBB from each side for added stability and stiffness, the cups are bored out and then machined with BSA threads inside, and I installed my standard Campy English BSA cups in them.
> 
> I had the outside diameter on the cups made in 46.2mm, which makes for a good snug pressfit - they have'nt moved a mm in the entire season!!
> 
> This works - and have been for the entire summer of 2011 - look at my previous post on page 1 of this thread.
> 
> Granted - it is not the lightest of solutions, but not that heavy either - I used 7075 high grade alu, which is very light in itself.
> 
> I'll be happy to post pictures of the adapters installed in my frame if anybody are interested!!:thumbsup:
> 
> Respectfully yours
> 
> Mads


All I have to say Mads is...you sure must of wanted to run a Campy crankset awful bad on the bike. I sure wouldn't. I appreciate your creativity...as I am an engineer...but why try to kluge something to a frameset so far from design intent? As I said in the other thread, I ride Campy and love Campy but a Campy UT crankset is no better than Shimano, Rotor, Sram etc who offer BB30 cranks...or a Specialized crank...or Cannondale cranks. 
Why not run a lighter and stiffer crank? You must have your reasons.
I would like to see the pics of your adapters if you care to show them. 
As to the spacing issue...would be gppd to know...perhaps not...why Specialized PF30 width spacing is below industry standard....probably to promote usage of their cranks. I am pretty astounded by this because that means their BB30 OSBB width doesn't reflect their PF30 OSBB in terms of width which seems absurd because Specialized sells the same cranks on each. Spacers must me different. Only thing I can think is they do this intentionally to sell more Specialized cranks on their Sworks PF30 bike.
Cheers.


----------



## tommyturbo

The real disappointment is that Specialized, one of the largest and best bicycle companies, didn't work to ensure that their new frames were compatible with all major manufacturer components available (Shimano/Sram/Campagnolo). This could have been accomplished by offering a threaded BB option for the SL4 Tarmacs. Or Specialized could have done a little advance thinking and planning about a solution as to how their OSBB frames would integrate with Campy cranks.

Before I decided to go with the S-Works Tarmac SL3 in lieu of getting the new SL4, I had several conversations with Specialized people (I posted an email from one of them early in this thread). It was very obvious that they had not done their homework and had no idea as to how Campy cranks could be made to work with the frames. Rather than risk a botch job and/or warranty issues, I went with the threaded BB of the SL3.

For me, the issue is not whether one crank is better than another, and many people (myself included) are not interested in tossing the crank they prefer to use. Some people will swap the crank, and others will simply buy a frame from another company that will work with their existing components.

Clearly Specialized wants to make the path of least resistance to use their OEM crank. I have no problem with this, but I think Specialized is missing the boat by not making sure that their frames are cross compatible with other cranks.


----------



## ukbloke

roadworthy said:


> As to the spacing issue...would be gppd to know...perhaps not...why Specialized PF30 width spacing is below industry standard....probably to promote usage of their cranks. I am pretty astounded by this because that means their BB30 OSBB width doesn't reflect their PF30 OSBB in terms of width which seems absurd because Specialized sells the same cranks on each. Spacers must me different. Only thing I can think is they do this intentionally to sell more Specialized cranks on their Sworks PF30 bike.
> Cheers.


I think that they are compliant to PF30 in all aspects. If that was not the case then the third-party PF30 adapter to Shimano spacing/diameter would not work. I think that if there was a PF30 adapter to this Campy crank standard, then this thread would have a solution. In the absence of a Wheel Manufacturing or other 3rd party adapter, perhaps Specialized should step up and make one. Unfortunately, this is probably a vanishingly small part of their market.

I'd be curious whether there are any Pro Teams running Specialized and Campy this year - maybe QuickStep?


----------



## ejprez

Specilized should at least make a 135 spider for their crank then, at least one can benefit from the Campy chainring shifting. I have the FSA 11 speed ones and they work good, but the campy rings have better ramp pin layout and always feels instantaneous when shifting. The FSA ones lag a little, nothing bad or serious, but after using the campy ones on my chorus crank makes me really want to keep them.


----------



## vaetuning

*Can't take no for an answer!!*



roadworthy said:


> All I have to say Mads is...you sure must of wanted to run a Campy crankset awful bad on the bike. I sure wouldn't. I appreciate your creativity...as I am an engineer...
> 
> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> Well...I guess I'm just one of those guys that can't take a no for an answer!!
> 
> Whenever I get something into my head, and people tell me it can't be done - I just have to prove them wrong!!
> 
> Nevertheless - I do hear your arguments concerning the allready usable cranksets, but I'm just so happy 'bout the way and speed of the shifting on the new 11 speed cranks - easily the fastest on the market right now I believe!! Way faster and more accurate than the first generation of 11 speed!!
> 
> And the looks - ooh, don't get me started - stunning!!
> 
> Ohh, and by the way - The Super Record Ti cranks are plenty light and stiff, if you ask me...!!
> 
> Furthermore I'm afraid that if I combine Campy stuff with Shimano or Sram I might combust instantaniously or get shot by an even more fanatic Campy fan than myself:hand:
> 
> And I agree with you; they have engineered the crank widht this way intentionally to make people buy their cranksets.
> 
> But nonetheless, I have just finished reading a german test on aftermarket cranks, and Specialized actually won, together with Cannondale.
> 
> Shifting, wear resistance and overall usability, was as god as Campy and Shimano - So....I might consider getting my hands on the S-works crankset afterall:ihih:
> 
> I will post pictures of my Crank solution for your convenience later today!!
> 
> Yours respectfully
> 
> Mads


----------



## vaetuning

*Campy UT & PF30 = lack of BB width*



ukbloke said:


> I think that they are compliant to PF30 in all aspects.
> 
> Hi UKbloke
> 
> Sadly the Campy PF30 adapters, do not compensate for the lack of width of the OSBB 46mm frames in the BB area.:mad2:
> 
> And they do NOT insert / press enough into the frames BB, in order to make it possible to shim them outwards!! - they would simply fall out / be pushed out by the torque!!
> This also happens when using the bb30 pressfit cups and Delrin rings!!:cryin:
> 
> Been there - done that!!
> 
> Yours respectfully
> 
> Mads


----------



## vaetuning

PJ352 said:


> I believe this is the guide you're referring to..
> http://service.specialized.com/coll...m-Bracket---Oversized-Road-Bottom-Bracket.pdf


You're correct - thanks!!

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## vaetuning

CJN said:


> I have a Specialized Venge and have installed a 2011 Campy Super Record crank set by using the specialized BB cups that came with the frame and installing the 42 mm Campy bearings inside those cups. I have 900 miles on the bike and it works perfectly. The 46mm UltraTorque bearings will NOT work.


Hi CJN

I'm sad to tell you, that your istallation of your beautifull crankset is not correct - and leaves much to be desired in stiffness!! - If your frame is a 46mm OSBB i.e.

If you align one of your crankarms with the seat tube, and put your fingers around the end of the crankarm, and then use your thumb to push against the seat tube, you'll feel the arms giving in to the force - that is the problem we are trying to address here!!

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## vaetuning

*Photos of OSBB / Campy UT solution*

Hi All

So I finally got home - sorry ´bout the crappy pictures, but it was getting darkish outside - that time of year!!

Sadly, for anybody interested, there is not much to be seen of my solution, but luckily it works very well!!

Bike weighs 6.58kg as shown on the pictures.

Very happy with it - she is my precious!! Next after my wife - of course...ahemm!!

Yours Respectfully

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

tommyturbo said:


> The real disappointment is that Specialized, one of the largest and best bicycle companies, didn't work to ensure that their new frames were compatible with all major manufacturer components available (Shimano/Sram/Campagnolo). This could have been accomplished by offering a threaded BB option for the SL4 Tarmacs. Or Specialized could have done a little advance thinking and planning about a solution as to how their OSBB frames would integrate with Campy cranks.
> 
> Before I decided to go with the S-Works Tarmac SL3 in lieu of getting the new SL4, I had several conversations with Specialized people (I posted an email from one of them early in this thread). It was very obvious that they had not done their homework and had no idea as to how Campy cranks could be made to work with the frames. Rather than risk a botch job and/or warranty issues, I went with the threaded BB of the SL3.
> 
> For me, the issue is not whether one crank is better than another, and many people (myself included) are not interested in tossing the crank they prefer to use. Some people will swap the crank, and others will simply buy a frame from another company that will work with their existing components.
> 
> Clearly Specialized wants to make the path of least resistance to use their OEM crank. I have no problem with this, but I think Specialized is missing the boat by not making sure that their frames are cross compatible with other cranks.


You and I may not like it Tom...but reality is...Specialized did what they did for profit....to promote using their cranks. Their cranks btw are excellent but personally I don't like the aesthetic of them. To me a crank and even Campy components is in no small part due to the beauty they bring. Campy cranks are beautiful with excellent function as you know and why we like 'em. This isn't the first time Specialized or other companies have done something like this nor will be the last.
At least Specialized isn't Cervelo with failing quality and the company being taken over with an unknown future. Thank goodness for that.
That said, my purchase of the new Roubaix SL3 Pro with threaded BB was in part based upon being able to use my Campy cranks...but may have bought it anyway if it were BB30. I still prefer Campy cranks like you and also prefer a threaded BB on its own merit.
The bike btw is outstanding. A shame like you say the SL4 Pro isn't offered as a threaded BB...but something to consider is...unlike the PF-30 Sworks bikes, you can insert the SL4 Pro below as it is BB30 with 42mm ID press bores and your nice Record crank would be plug and p;lay with no worries about adapters prying out or squeaking....a good option if you want the SL4 which is a whale of a race bike.
Cheers.


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> roadworthy said:
> 
> 
> 
> All I have to say Mads is...you sure must of wanted to run a Campy crankset awful bad on the bike. I sure wouldn't. I appreciate your creativity...as I am an engineer...
> 
> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> Well...I guess I'm just one of those guys that can't take a no for an answer!!
> 
> Whenever I get something into my head, and people tell me it can't be done - I just have to prove them wrong!!
> 
> Nevertheless - I do hear your arguments concerning the allready usable cranksets, but I'm just so happy 'bout the way and speed of the shifting on the new 11 speed cranks - easily the fastest on the market right now I believe!! Way faster and more accurate than the first generation of 11 speed!!
> 
> And the looks - ooh, don't get me started - stunning!!
> 
> Ohh, and by the way - The Super Record Ti cranks are plenty light and stiff, if you ask me...!!
> 
> Furthermore I'm afraid that if I combine Campy stuff with Shimano or Sram I might combust instantaniously or get shot by an even more fanatic Campy fan than myself:hand:
> 
> And I agree with you; they have engineered the crank widht this way intentionally to make people buy their cranksets.
> 
> But nonetheless, I have just finished reading a german test on aftermarket cranks, and Specialized actually won, together with Cannondale.
> 
> Shifting, wear resistance and overall usability, was as god as Campy and Shimano - So....I might consider getting my hands on the S-works crankset afterall:ihih:
> 
> I will post pictures of my Crank solution for your convenience later today!!
> 
> Yours respectfully
> 
> Mads
> 
> 
> 
> Well stated Mads and I hear you brother. Thanks for sharing your experience and talent with us. If you have a chance, please post the adapters you fabricated.
> Kind Regards.
Click to expand...


----------



## ukbloke

roadworthy said:


> A shame like you say the SL4 Pro isn't offered as a threaded BB...but something to consider is...unlike the PF-30 Sworks bikes, you can insert the SL4 Pro below as it is BB30 with 42mm ID press bores and your nice Record crank would be plug and p;lay with no worries about adapters prying out or squeaking....a good option if you want the SL4 which is a whale of a race bike.
> Cheers.


Confused - I thought that the Tarmac SL4 Pro and the SWorks were both carbon shell OSBB and were PF30-compatible in dimensions. So I think that they are exactly the same in terms of crank compatibility and adapter options.


----------



## tommyturbo

I also was under the impression that the S-Works and SL4 Pro had the exact same BB setup. 

I didn't want to sound fickle, but yes, indeed, I don't like the looks of the Specialized cranks. This is a personal thing, obviously, but I didn't want to swap my Super Record out for a Specialized crank.

No question Specialized wants to lock buyers into their cranks. As I said, I totally get that, but I am wondering if they will lose more buyers and revenue because of the frame/crank incompatibility issues than buyers they will pick up via proprietary crank sales.

For complete bike buyers, as long as you want to go with Shimano or Sram, you will get a great bike. For people who want to build a "custom" bike from the frame up, Specialized is making that a little more difficult these days.


----------



## nis240sxt

tommyturbo said:


> I also was under the impression that the S-Works and SL4 Pro had the exact same BB setup.


I just bought an SL4 Pro frameset and they do NOT come with the carbon shell (PF30) setup. It has a bonded metal insert and is the normal BB30 standard (bearings directly in bore w/circlips) as roadworthy mentioned. So yes, you can definitely use the SRAM adapter and campy cranks if you're willing to go with the Pro model. I believe last year's SL3 Pro also came with the BB30 standard. I chose to go with the SRAM S900/950 BB30 crankset since they are cheap, stiff, light and looks good (removable spider also) so there are excellent alternatives out there you just have to look.


----------



## vaetuning

Hi Roadworthy

I have actually posted the above pictures of the solution!!

All there's visible is the shiny aluminum collar underneath the BSA cups.

I'm not very keen on dissasembling the setup, as it works very well - "don't mess with something that works" - right??

But, imagine the shiny alu cups, protruding into the OSBB, so far from each side, that there's only, ´bout 6mm of free OSBB carbon tube visible inside the BB.

Works very well - stiff as ....!!

And there is NO binding of the BB bearings whatsoever - the 2 cups where machined to the exact same specs.

Yours Respectfully

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> I have actually posted the above pictures of the solution!!
> 
> All there's visible is the shiny aluminum collar underneath the BSA cups.
> 
> I'm not very keen on dissasembling the setup, as it works very well - "don't mess with something that works" - right??
> 
> But, imagine the shiny alu cups, protruding into the OSBB, so far from each side, that there's only, ´bout 6mm of free OSBB carbon tube visible inside the BB.
> 
> Works very well - stiff as ....!!
> 
> And there is NO binding of the BB bearings whatsoever - the 2 cups where machined to the exact same specs.
> 
> Yours Respectfully
> 
> Mads


Sounds like you have a design background Mads. Well done. You should consider making a small run of them and selling them to Campy owners with PF30 Specialized framesets.  Sounds like you created a BSA aka threaded interface for Campy threaded cups...that presses 'well inboard into the carbon 46mm I.D. through bore'. That's the magic and really why the Campy adapters even if they had the correct lateral width are a poor design. With your approach of each machined adapter pressing well into the shell on both sides, you have a much more secure solution.
Thanks for the explanation.
Cheers.


----------



## roadworthy

Ukbloke and others to clear up confusion...just as nis240sxt stated.

Here is a breakdown of BB's for the Roubaix and Tarmac for 2012. Forget Specialized nomenclature of calling all their integrated BB's OSBB...they can be different.

Roubaix Pro SL3: threaded aka BSA BB
Roubaix S-works: PF30

Tarmac Pro SL4: BB30
Tarmac Sworks SL4: PF30

Vae covered the issue with PF30 beautifully for Specialized framesets...lateral spacing is not conducive to running Campy cranks with 'PF30'.

If you are a Tarmac and Campy lover, get the Tarmac SL4 Pro. I will further say, not only do you save a grand by buying it over the Sworks, but even a pro would be hard pressed to feel any difference in performance. This is even true comparing the Tarmac SL3 and SL4 as discussed in the other thread....or the Roubaix Pro SL3 versus Roubaix Sworks.

Why will the Tarmac SL4 Pro work with Campy? You have two options. Unlike the Sworks PF30, BB30 lateral spacing is 68mm. That means for the Tarmac Pro, you can use Campy BB30 adapters. But personally I wouldn't because the press in interface of Campy's BB30 adapters isn't a very good engagement for having the bearings run outboard of the BB shell. This is why vae's solution is more elegant for PF30...way more lateral press engagement.

Below is a picture of a Tarmac SL4 Pro. It clearly has BB30. 'IF' you must run your Campy crankset with a Campy gruppo, then my opinion is the most elegant solution is the Sram press in BSA adapter which is rock solid unlike the Campy adapters which are two pieces trying to pull away from the BB shell on each side due to the lateral torsion of pedal forces.

For those that must have the finest and pay a hefty premium for a Sworks Tarmac...or Roubaix...both are PF30, as vae taught us, we are pretty much screwed if we run Campy. The box I am in is I love the aesthetic of Campy cranks...but to me it makes more sense to run a dedicated BB30 crank as nis and others do when having a bike with BB30 or PF30. Why not take advantage of lower weight and increased stiffness over the Campy cranks. Tradeoff would be purely aesthetic and there are some nice looking BB30 cranks out there though Specialized cranks don't float my boat.

PS: There is more if you want even further complexity, and this is response to ukbloke's comment in another thread about OSBB Roubaix Pro's popping up on the web.
In discussion ukbloke mentioned that he believed OSBB Roubaix Pros showing up on ebay which were clearly 2012 Roubaix Pro framesets were outliars from perhaps early production. Not so. As it turns out...there are 'two different' Roubaix SL3 Pro's for 2012...and this is how is works:
2012 Roubaix Pro SL3 frameset: threaded BB
2012 Roubaix Pro SL3 complete bike with DuraAce or Sram: BB30

The latter is what you see on the web. Complete Roubaix Pro SL3 framesets with OSBB parted out and sold as framesets. Why does Specialized offer both a threaded BB for their Roubaix Pro frameset and yet BB30 for their complete bicycle? Simple. Because Specialized cranks that come on the complete bike are incompatible with a threaded BB. The larger question is...why would Specialized go to the trouble of tooling a threaded BB for the Roubaix Pro frameset? Now that is a good question when Specialized makes the sister Tarmac SL4 Pro in BB30. I can only speculate and say, that Specialized knows that many that purchase the Roubaix Pro...like me...have their own groupset and prefer a threaded BB for commonality...which is true in my case. Plus, many Roubaix owners who buy the bike for distance riding, aren't big watt guys and any stiffness benefit of BB30 is indistinguishable which is also true in my case.
Last picture is of a Roubaix Pro with BB30. That frameset started life sold as a complete bike from Specialized with Specialized cranks.


----------



## vaetuning

*BSA / OSBB threaded interface*



roadworthy said:


> Sounds like you have a design background Mads. Well done. You should consider making a small run of them and selling them to Campy owners with PF30 Specialized framesets.  Sounds like you created a BSA aka threaded interface for Campy threaded cups...
> 
> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> Yep - that is exactly what they are - an interface between BSA cups & OSBB!!:thumbsup:
> 
> Sadly - I do not work in a machine shop!! So I had to buy my way in, to have those BSA / OSBB thingy's made - and I payed a hefty sum, to get the ones I have on my SL3 Roubaix!!:cryin:
> 
> But hey - anybody with some skills should be able to get a pair made, at their prefferred machine shop.
> Let me know and I'll give you some hints, as to how & what measurements!:idea:
> 
> And as I payed around the 250$ mark for mine, I'm sure that other can have them made cheaper than me!? (yes, I know - I'm borderline completely insane!! But the shop where I bought the frame, told me it was impossible to install the Campy UT crank in a safe way, and I just had to prove them wrong....Darn!!):mad2:
> 
> Yours Respectfully
> 
> Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> roadworthy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have a design background Mads. Well done. You should consider making a small run of them and selling them to Campy owners with PF30 Specialized framesets.  Sounds like you created a BSA aka threaded interface for Campy threaded cups...
> 
> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> Yep - that is exactly what they are - an interface between BSA cups & OSBB!!:thumbsup:
> 
> Sadly - I do not work in a machine shop!! So I had to buy my way in, to have those BSA / OSBB thingy's made - and I payed a hefty sum, to get the ones I have on my SL3 Roubaix!!:cryin:
> 
> But hey - anybody with some skills should be able to get a pair made, at their prefferred machine shop.
> Let me know and I'll give you some hints, as to how & what measurements!:idea:
> 
> And as I payed around the 250$ mark for mine, I'm sure that other can have them made cheaper than me!? (yes, I know - I'm borderline completely insane!! But the shop where I bought the frame, told me it was impossible to install the Campy UT crank in a safe way, and I just had to prove them wrong....Darn!!):mad2:
> 
> Yours Respectfully
> 
> Mads
> 
> 
> 
> Mads...you were just being greedy and had to have the Roubaix S-works. :wink:
> As much as I would like to know the specs of your cool adapters, no need to provide details because I won't be fabbing anytime soon. ...I settled on the Roubaix Pro with threaded BB with Campy to avert having to do what you did. I wouldn't have gone there anyway...would have built with another crank if PF30...maybe even the Specialized cranks as they are very good. I think its great what you did however and I give you a lot of credit for doing what you did...and we share the same love for the Campy cranks...they are fantastic.
> If you get a chance, post a pic of your Roubaix with Campy.
> Kind Regards my talented friend.
Click to expand...


----------



## vaetuning

*Photos of my Roubaix SL3*



roadworthy said:


> vaetuning said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mads...you were just being greedy and had to have the Roubaix S-works. :wink:
> As much as I would like to know the specs of your cool adapters, no need to provide details because I won't be fabbing anytime soon. ...I settled on the Roubaix Pro with threaded BB with Campy to avert having to do what you did. I wouldn't have gone there anyway...would have built with another crank if PF30...maybe even the Specialized cranks as they are very good. I think its great what you did however and I give you a lot of credit for doing what you did...and we share the same love for the Campy cranks...they are fantastic.
> If you get a chance, post a pic of your Roubaix with Campy.
> Kind Regards my talented friend.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> Thanks for the kind words!!
> 
> Concerning pictures of my Roubaix, it is actually mine, the red and white Roubaix S-works, with Lightweight Clinchers, earlier on this page - where I have also posted 2 pictures of my interface solution!?
> 
> I'll hit the sack now - it is almost midnight in Denmark now - good night, sleep tight and don´t let the....arrh, you all now how that one goes!!
> 
> Yours respectfully
> 
> Mads
Click to expand...


----------



## master539

*Specialized BB to Campy cranks*

I just wanted to know, If there is no correct / usable solution for mounting the Campy cranks in 46mm OSBB Specialized frames as of yet ???
I have a brand new Specialized Venge and like to use my Campy cranks UT 11 please help.

best
539


----------



## roadworthy

master539 said:


> I just wanted to know, If there is no correct / usable solution for mounting the Campy cranks in 46mm OSBB Specialized frames as of yet ???
> I have a brand new Specialized Venge and like to use my Campy cranks UT 11 please help.
> 
> best
> 539


Per comments made by Mads, apparently no solution for you. If you have a new Campy crank in the box, before discarding it, I would send an email to Specialized technical department and ask them point blank. The reason is...Specialized makes running changes all the time and they may have a solution for you.
Otherwise to me...the frameset trumps what kind of cranks are used. Lots of great cranks on the market...but again unless running Specialized, I would tread carefully so you don't run into the same spacing issue with a BB30 crankset.


----------



## tommyturbo

The following from Lennard Zinn today on Velonews.com might shed a little more light on the differences between PF30 and BB30 (I didn't ask Lennard for permission; I hope he is OK with me posting this): 

"As I said in the 2012 Velo Buyer’s Guide, which you should all have received in your mailboxes by now, adaptors are not always a perfect solution for press-fit bottom brackets. There are plenty of people out there who have had problems with creaking and movement of them. Press-fit bottom brackets have plastic sleeves surrounding the bearings that distort as needed if the bottom bracket shell internal diameter is not perfectly round and of the correct diameter.

Aluminum adaptors to fit 24mm-spindle cranks to PF30, BB86, BBRight PF, or BB386 EVO bottom bracket shells, however, are generally machined to tight tolerances and require correspondingly tight tolerances of the frame’s bottom bracket shell or they will move around and creak. But wait! The whole idea of press-fit bottom brackets, after all, is to fit into frames that are not made to exact tolerances so that they could be simply molded with cheap labor and not machined afterward. Now you see the problem. Adaptor problems are less common in BB30 frames, since they have metal bottom bracket shells machined after construction to fit the bearings and the snaprings."


----------



## Navy boy

*2012 OSBB Specialized frames*

To those who want to run campagnolo ultra torque cranks with new OSBB frames by specialized I've found the right adapter

They are made by c bear just search for the company

And c bear directed me to a Internet store cost 119 euro to buy

Search for h & s bike - discount


----------



## kondre2000

Navy boy said:


> To those who want to run campagnolo ultra torque cranks with new OSBB frames by specialized I've found the right adapter
> 
> They are made by c bear just search for the company
> 
> And c bear directed me to a Internet store cost 119 euro to buy
> 
> Search for h & s bike - discount


Well, at that price, for us US'ers, it would be better to just get the Specialized BB30 cranks.


----------



## vaetuning

*OSBB Adapter price*



kondre2000 said:


> Well, at that price, for us US'ers, it would be better to just get the Specialized BB30 cranks.


Hi

Yeah, I hear you - I also thought it sounded a little steep for something which is mass produced...!!

But I got interested, and called up the company - talked to a guy named Bart, and he's been most helpfull / informative.

If I where to buy a set, it would set me back 129euro:

The price is for the adapter / sleeve together with ITA cups, ceramic bearings, and freight to Denmark - they use ITA, as it makes it easier to tighten their setup, when installed.

As the kit comes with a full ceramic BB, the price actually seem quite fair I think?!

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## vaetuning

*Finally - a solution for the masses*



Navy boy said:


> To those who want to run campagnolo ultra torque cranks with new OSBB frames by specialized I've found the right adapter
> 
> 
> They are made by c bear just search for the company
> 
> And c bear directed me to a Internet store cost 119 euro to buy
> 
> Search for h & s bike - discount


Hi Navy boy

Nice find - I'm sure it will help a lot of people in distress over their OSBB frames and UT cranks!

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

Since we are surveying options here, I will give you mine.
- If I built up a SL4 Tarmac with BB30 and had to have Campy cranks, it would be with the Sram adapter period. Plug and play and cheap and relatively light or light enough.

- If I built up a Tarmac SL4 with BB30 and I am a Campy guy...I would run another BB30 crank designed for the frame. Allegience to Campy only runs so deep when it comes to their cranks which I run on my new Roubaix and they are outstanding but the point being...cranks are not the end all to building a bike and many great cranks out there.

- If building up a PF30 Sworks bike, I would not run Campy cranks period. I would likely run the Specialized crankset designed for the frame.

That is where I come down. Spending over 100 Euro for an adapter that doesn't need to exist seems absolutely silly to me but again, opinions are what make the world go round.
Cheers.


----------



## Navy boy

Thanks for the info I'll take photos when mine arrives . I think the price was great. The cranks cost over 1000 in Sydney , they have been sitting in their box.


----------



## Bensamz

Here is my 2012 Tarmac SL4 Pro with 2011 Campagnolo Chorus. I used the Campy adapter for the crank. I put 150 miles and 10 hours of hard group riding on it the last two days. No problems at all so far. No squeaking or creaking, the adapters have not rotated, no play in the crank. Rock solid overall. I hope it continues that way. I'll keep the thread updated.

The bike weighs 17.04 pounds as is with the Powertap Pro, around 15.25 with the 2011 Zipp 303's and Super Record cassette.


----------



## kondre2000

I got a call from the shop I ride for and was informed that he was able to get me a new from factory S-works SL3 in HTC color in my size. The price was $600 less than what he could get me the SL4 pro for. Since I really dont care for either color schemes of the SL4 pro, I went with the HTC frame. Its still OSBB so I was still facing the same situation if I was to use my 2008 Campy UT cranks. I stumbled on a guy selling his 2011 DA Di2 group, so I jumped on that. I will be using the DA crank but since the frame comes with the adapter for the Shimano crank, it should be fine. So after all the hoopla and the need to start this thread, I am going a totally different direction. 

Thanks to everyone who did the research on this subject, I hope it has helped out others in the process.


----------



## ejprez

Bensamz said:


> Here is my 2012 Tarmac SL4 Pro with 2011 Campagnolo Chorus. I used the Campy adapter for the crank. I put 150 miles and 10 hours of hard group riding on it the last two days. No problems at all so far. No squeaking or creaking, the adapters have not rotated, no play in the crank. Rock solid overall. I hope it continues that way. I'll keep the thread updated.
> 
> The bike weighs 17.04 pounds as is with the Powertap Pro, around 15.25 with the 2011 Zipp 303's and Super Record cassette.


Definately helpful as I use Chorus 11. Had my team shop look into finding a 2011 S-works with a threaded BB which they did in an S-works, but seeing your pics confirm that the Campy bb30 cups go right in kind makes me want the exact same model frame.


----------



## marco67

I'm new here and been reading this thread with interest as i've just acquired a 2011 S-works SL3 Roubaix with the PF30 OSBB, the one where it is too narrow for Ultra Torque with the Campag BB cups.

The UK store who sold it to me weren't aware of any issues until I had tried to fit the chainset when they contacted Specialized UK. They told them that any '3rd party' solutions had proved unreliable - well I sort of guessed they would.

I have spoken with C-Bear about Navy boy's information and he offers a kit with bearings and all, but will also sell just the sleeve that you can then fit standard BB cups into - cost €46. My question is for Navy boy, or anyone else who might have tried this solution and found out if it worked properly.

Any feedback gratefully received, i'm on the verge of sending ther frame back for a refund but would rather get it up and running with my campag set up.

Cheers

Mark


----------



## roadworthy

Bensamz said:


> Here is my 2012 Tarmac SL4 Pro with 2011 Campagnolo Chorus. I used the Campy adapter for the crank. I put 150 miles and 10 hours of hard group riding on it the last two days. No problems at all so far. No squeaking or creaking, the adapters have not rotated, no play in the crank. Rock solid overall. I hope it continues that way. I'll keep the thread updated.
> 
> The bike weighs 17.04 pounds as is with the Powertap Pro, around 15.25 with the 2011 Zipp 303's and Super Record cassette.


Just a point of clarification in case those that have waded through this thread believe Campy cranks are compatible with all Tarmacs. They aren't. Campy cranks don't work on Sworks Tarmacs or Roubaixs because of their peculiar spacing...Sworks are PF30 and not BB30 as shown on the above bike.
Btw, very nice bike. Looks beautifully proportioned for a racey fit. I hope you have continued success with your set up. Btw...did you just press the Campy cups in place?...or did you use Loctite?


----------



## vaetuning

*C- Bear solution For PF30*

Any feedback gratefully received, i'm on the verge of sending ther frame back for a refund but would rather get it up and running with my campag set up.

Cheers

Mark[/QUOTE]

Hi Mark

I've just received my conversion kit from C- Bear - It went right in, very tight and snug fit though, and the crankset seems as stiff as it is intended to be, sadly I cannot comment on how it rides, as the weather in Denmark is not for "summer" bikes as of yet.

But given my mechanical background, I've be surprised if any "Gremlins" should turn up using this kit.

I only bought the sleeve and ITA cups (they use those 'cause their both right hand threaded, so you actually tighten the sleeve and collar in the frame)

I payed 75€ for the sleeve and ITA super Record cups, including fredight - Very reasonable

Yours Respectfully

Mads


----------



## marcm

Just a side note; My dealer said the frame would be covered by manufactures warranty with Campy SR so I called Specialized myself and the Tech said they *would not warranty* the frame with Campy cranks installed.


----------



## marco67

Mads

I appreciate your reply, sounds like a good fix so will give it a go.

Cheers

Mark


----------



## roadworthy

marcm said:


> Just a side note; My dealer said the frame would be covered by manufactures warranty with Campy SR so I called Specialized myself and the Tech said they *would not warranty* the frame with Campy cranks installed.


Some maybe critical with Specialized for taking this position but I believe they are correct if the frame failure is BB related if using Campy cranks. Campy cranks are ill suited for Spesh OSBB bikes. I run them however on my new Roubaix Pro with thread BB and are flawless, but Campy adapters with BB30 is not a great match.


----------



## kbwh

roadworthy said:


> Some maybe critical with Specialized for taking this position but I believe they are correct if the frame failure is BB related if using Campy cranks. Campy cranks are ill suited for Spesh OSBB bikes. I run them however on my new Roubaix Pro with thread BB and are flawless, but Campy adapters with BB30 is not a great match.


_Spesh OSBB bikes are ill suited for Campy cups._
OSBB needs a complete sleeve. There are other 42mm threadless BBs out there that are not designed that way.


----------



## roadworthy

kbwh said:


> Sentence fix:
> Spesh OSBB bikes are ill suited for Campy cranks.


I shouldn't waste my time with you...but you are wrong to fix my post which was worded properly. Inference placing 'ill'..a pejorative reference on the sentence subject being Specialized. Wrong. There is no ill in the context of Specialized bikes. To be clear, the ill rests with Campagnolo. Their cranks are incompatible with all BB30/PF30 bikes sold. It is Campy that is over reaching in an effort to sell their product which is ill suited for integrated BB's....not Specialized bikes being ill suited for anything.


----------



## kbwh

Maybe you have time for a requote?

What you're saying in you last post is that while a BSA or ITA BB does not need a (extra) sleeve between the left and right side any BB30 does? I cannot find such a requirement in any BB30 documentation.

The non threaded Campagnolo cups are fine if the BB in question is as stiff as an ITA/BSA BB needs to be.


----------



## roadworthy

kbwh said:


> Maybe you have time for a requote?
> 
> What you're saying in you last post is that while a BSA or ITA BB does not need a (extra) sleeve between the left and right side any BB30 does? I cannot find such a requirement in any BB30 documentation.


Lets sort a few things out here. Campy cranks are designed for BSA aka threaded BB's. They work perfectly in that application. I am a Campy guy and what I ride. Campy cranks are a lousy application for BB30/PF30 bikes...pick one...Cervelo, Trek, Giant etc. Why? Because of load path. An external BB is not meant to be press fit. There is no support of the bearings. Bearings are positioned outboard of the BB. A threaded interface is requred to keep outboard bearings from peeling away from the BB. Campy press fit adapter are known to pry loose over time and creak if not fully separate from the BB. Campy cranks were not designed for BB30/PF30 and they work poorly in this application. They can be made to work for BB30 bikes by pressing in a threaded sleeve which effectively turns a BB30 bike into a BSA BB bike. But...Campy cranks will not work effectively with PF30 Swork bikes due to unique spacing.


----------



## kbwh

I see your point now (though I disagree with some of your wording). Would be interesting to look at load paths in another thread.
Meanwhile I'll keep that SRAM sleeve in mind if my next frame has BB30.


----------



## ejprez

I'm not sure if that's accurate. 2011 S-Works came in threaded and OSBB, both are probably equally stiff, with the OSBB being a lighter setup. I think if your OSBB is the alloy shell you're good. If it's carbon and needs the derlin insert than the BB30 adaptor then you could run into issues, but I checked around and it seems like others have had success in using a Carbon OSBB with Campy.


----------



## roadworthy

ejprez said:


> I'm not sure if that's accurate. 2011 S-Works came in threaded and OSBB, both are probably equally stiff, with the OSBB being a lighter setup. I think if your OSBB is the alloy shell you're good. If it's carbon and needs the derlin insert than the BB30 adaptor then you could run into issues, but I checked around and it seems like others have had success in using a Carbon OSBB with Campy.


Where to start:
Not sure accurate: If you don't know, why question it?
2011 Sworks came in threaded? Let's see a picture. All 2011 Sworks are PF30
Alloy OSBB shell? Good for what?
Run into issues? Campy cranks won't mount to a Sworks PF30 bike...wrong spacing.
Please post anybody that has success mounting Campy cranks to Carbon OSBB aka PF30 Sworks bikes. I know of only one poster on here that has done it. He did so by machining his own adapters as he could find nothing to fit.


----------



## ejprez

I can't know cause I don't have the proper tools to measure frame stiffness, if I did, I would probably start my own bike company. Plus I do have a 2011 s works with a threaded BB and feels just as stiff as my BB30 cross bike. Plus OSBB is narrower than standard BB 30, almost looks like PF30, but it's not, have to have the derlin inserts. I've googles and saw that it is possible to do it with a carbon OSBB. The pro sl4 has a standard BB30, alloy shell, even though Specialized says it's OSBB too, for that you just use the campy bb 30 adaptor. I can't believe you would have trouble finding it, it's there are a few on the campy section and specialized sections. Just scroll and you'll see them. 

Specialized Bicycle Components : S-Works Tarmac SL3 Frameset
mines the black one.


----------



## roadworthy

ejprez said:


> I can't know cause I don't have the proper tools to measure frame stiffness, if I did, I would probably start my own bike company. Plus I do have a 2011 s works with a threaded BB and feels just as stiff as my BB30 cross bike. *Plus OSBB is narrower than standard BB 30, almost looks like PF30, but it's not, have to have the derlin inserts. I've googles and saw that it is possible to do it with a carbon OSBB*. The pro sl4 has a standard BB30, alloy shell, even though Specialized says it's OSBB too, for that you just use the campy bb 30 adaptor. I can't believe you would have trouble finding it, it's there are a few on the campy section and specialized sections. Just scroll and you'll see them.
> 
> Specialized Bicycle Components : S-Works Tarmac SL3 Frameset
> mines the black one.


ejprez,
Will address some of your comments and try to add some clarity. The tools you need to start a bike company aren't the same that you need to measure BB stiffness...lol. All you need are some strategically placed strain gauges, a powered transducer and a data logger.
You need a whole bunch more to start a bike company. 
Kidding aside, I will start with an admission I was wrong about something. I had no idea and am still a bit incredulous that Specialized made a Tarmac Sworks in 2011 with a threaded BB. I have never seen one and probably would have bet a fair amount of money that such a bike didn't exist...but it does...and you own one. I saw the reference on the 2011 Specialized archive site...and thanks for setting the record straight. I am surprised because that means that Specialized made the Tarmac Sworks in both threaded and PF30as late as 2011 when they introduced the BB30 for Tarmac as early as 2007...amazing they would do this. Well they didn't for 2012...there are no threaded BB Tarmacs....unlike the Roubaix which is also available in three different BB's for 2012...and presume for 2013 the english threaded BB will go away for the Roubaix as well...will see. Another data point why I didn't believe there was a threaded BB available for the Tarmac bike in 2011..it wasn't listed on their BB cross reference chart...see below.

OK...lets move on to BB spacing...the crux of discussion. I marked in bold what you wrote that didn't make much sense and I can help add some clarity and the information on different BB's relative to compatibility with Campy cranks is now known and corroborated with owner experience on this forum. 

OSBB is comprised of two types of BB's...alloy OSBB which is BB30 and carbon OSBB which is PF30 for Specialized.

Here is the spacing for Specialized:
threaded BB: 68mm
alloy OSBB: 68mm which is stock issue BB30 industry standard.
carbon OSBB: 62mm which is about 6mm shy of industry standard for PF30.

Above spacing is why Campy cranks can be made to fit for both threaded and alloy OSBB aka BB30 Specialized Roubaixs and Tarmacs. There is a picture of a white Tarmac Pro which is BB30 just above with Campy press in cups which fit fine with Campy cranks because Campy cups are made to fit a std BB30 which the Tarmac Pro is.

Now lets talk about the Specialized bike that Campy cranks won't fit...and why they won't fit. It is the Sworks bike...both Roubaix and Tarmac for 2012..with what Specialized calls the carbon OSBB. Campy cranks won't fit this bike. There is nothing extraordinary about Specialized carbon OSBB relative to the industry other than one vital difference....shell 'width' Specialized PF30 bikes...which is a pure carbon shell without 42mm alloy alloy inserts...measures 46mm in hole diameter...but is only 62mm in width or 6mm below industry std. for PF30 which from an industry std is the same as BB30 which is 68mm...or the same as the Roubaix and Tarmac in alloy OSBB. This makes sense because BB30 cranks are historically used on PF30 bikes but Specialized introduces a wrinkle with their version of PF30. One may scratch his head as to why they did this. It is clear to me why they did....to sell more Specialized cranks on their Sworks bikes because of unique spacing. The other question is...how does Specialized sell the same cranks for both forms of OSBB when they are installed on their bikes with difference BB shell width spacing? They do this with spacers that are unique to Specialized cranks. Campy cranks can't be adjusted for width spacing because the bearings are pressed on the crank spindle halves which dictate their lateral position.
I hope that helps clear things up.


----------



## ejprez

Yes like I said in bold, "Carbon OSBB is narrower than BB30", 62mm and "almost like PF30" 46mm shell. Didn;t really need a long post and chart to confirm what the bulk of us already knew. I didn't think their be that much confusion if I glossed over it. Plus didn't think I had to have accurate measurements between a threaded and OSBB sl3. I would just assume they are both equally stiff and all Specialized did was mold in threads instaead of a 42mm shell. I prefer just to ride them and not sweat the details too much.


----------



## roadworthy

ejprez said:


> Yes like I said in bold, "Carbon OSBB is narrower than BB30", 62mm and "almost like PF30" 46mm shell. Didn;t really need a long post and chart to confirm what the bulk of us already knew. I didn't think their be that much confusion if I glossed over it. Plus didn't think I had to have accurate measurements between a threaded and OSBB sl3. I would just assume they are both equally stiff and all Specialized did was mold in threads instaead of a 42mm shell. I prefer just to ride them and not sweat the details too much.


It wasn't clear to me you understood what was going on. Because there has been so much confusion...what this thread has been about, perhaps my post will help others understand exactly what is going on...in large measure thanks to Madds.


----------



## tommyturbo

I'm not sure how anyone came to the conclusion that a threaded BB wasn't offered with the 2011 S-Works Tarmac SL3. I and quite a few others have mentioned in this thread that they bought the 2011 bike in lieu of the 2012 S-Works Tarmac SL4 specifically because of no threaded BB option with the 2012.

I have a feeling that I am not the only one who won't consider any of the "OSBB" options until there is an industry standard. If the manufacturer's could agree to make new stems and bars in 31.8mm (not 30.9, 32.1, 31.5, etc), then why can't there be an industry standard OSBB?

It's very disappointing that Specialized is attempting to discourage the use of non-Specialized cranks with their OSBB system. I hope that they will reconsider and bring back a threaded option.


----------



## roadworthy

tommyturbo said:


> I'm not sure how anyone came to the conclusion that a threaded BB wasn't offered with the 2011 S-Works Tarmac SL3. I and quite a few others have mentioned in this thread that they bought the 2011 bike in lieu of the 2012 S-Works Tarmac SL4 specifically because of no threaded BB option with the 2012.
> 
> I have a feeling that I am not the only one who won't consider any of the "OSBB" options until there is an industry standard. If the manufacturer's could agree to make new stems and bars in 31.8mm (not 30.9, 32.1, 31.5, etc), then why can't there be an industry standard OSBB?
> 
> It's very disappointing that Specialized is attempting to discourage the use of non-Specialized cranks with their OSBB system. I hope that they will reconsider and bring back a threaded option.


I reread the thread and saw you were an earlier contributor trying to get to the bottom of this issue which we now have...and you own the other threaded BB Sworks bike in existence...kidding.
Like you say, pretty remarkable that Specialized has offered three different BB's on the same model bike. No doubt they do this to create market diversity and as with Trek, Cervelo and others...don't hold your breath on an industry standard emerging...I could be wrong though. Even Specialized can't seem to decide upon a given BB for their carbon frames...let alone all their competitors they can't control.
I know you like Campy and so do I. Lets say something happens to your threaded Sworks bike...a viable solution since you don't want to part with your Campy cranks is the Sram BSA sleeve with the SL4 Pro bike....yes it isn't a Sworks tho. The sleeve is rock solid unlike the BB30 pressed in cups that Campy sells.


----------



## tommyturbo

I think it's interesting that back in September I was able to order (from Dealer Inventory) the last available threaded BB 2011 SW Tarmac SL3 in the size and color I wanted. The only such frames left are two with Astana colors and a few with Gloss Neon Red. 

As far as the 2011 SW Tarmac SL3 with OSBB, there are still numerous frames in almost all sizes and colors available (up to 31 in one particular size and color). Your Specialized dealer can show you this page on the site (after he blocks his cost numbers).

In the last few weeks, dealer cost on these frames has been cut significantly. Anyone looking for a tremendous deal on a 2011 SW Tarmac OSBB SL3 should be able to negotiate a great price.

I'm hoping that the product people have taken note that there is still very solid demand for threaded BB bikes.


----------



## roadworthy

tommyturbo said:


> I think it's interesting that back in September I was able to order (from Dealer Inventory) the last available threaded BB 2011 SW Tarmac SL3 in the size and color I wanted. The only such frames left are two with Astana colors and a few with Gloss Neon Red.
> 
> As far as the 2011 SW Tarmac SL3 with OSBB, there are still numerous frames in almost all sizes and colors available (up to 31 in one particular size and color). Your Specialized dealer can show you this page on the site (after he blocks his cost numbers).
> 
> In the last few weeks, dealer cost on these frames has been cut significantly. Anyone looking for a tremendous deal on a 2011 SW Tarmac OSBB SL3 should be able to negotiate a great price.
> 
> *I'm hoping that the product people have taken note that there is still very solid demand for threaded BB bikes*.


They may...but doesn't seem to be swaying the dynamic much or the trend in the industry. I too prefer a threaded BB to BB30 or PF30...the Roubaix being still available in Pro model for 2012 with threaded BB. Good bet it won't be for 2013 but maybe the Roubaix will hold for another year or so to threaded...in spite of two other BB options...remarkable. As to wondering if the industry will morph or consolidate to a BB std...no doubt Campy and Shimano are watching as well as they haven't come forward with a 30mm bearing crankset either.


----------



## Bensamz

roadworthy said:


> Just a point of clarification in case those that have waded through this thread believe Campy cranks are compatible with all Tarmacs. They aren't. Campy cranks don't work on Sworks Tarmacs or Roubaixs because of their peculiar spacing...Sworks are PF30 and not BB30 as shown on the above bike.
> Btw, very nice bike. Looks beautifully proportioned for a racey fit. I hope you have continued success with your set up. Btw...did you just press the Campy cups in place?...or did you use Loctite?


Campy cups just pressed in, no Loctite. I put 7-10 hours a week on the bike, so I should know sooner or later if they come loose.

And I actually weighed the bike with the Zipps and SR cassette and it is 14.75. Pretty impressive.


----------



## vaetuning

Bensamz said:


> Campy cups just pressed in, no Loctite. I put 7-10 hours a week on the bike, so I should know sooner or later if they come loose.
> 
> And I actually weighed the bike with the Zipps and SR cassette and it is 14.75. Pretty impressive.


Hi Bensamz

Very beautyfull bike you've got there!! Congrats:thumbsup:

You should encounter NO problems as your Pro's BB is a BB30 (Spesh calls it OSBB, but it is a BB30)

The odd and problematic BB from Secialized, is the S-works OSBB (the one with a carbon shell).

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## Corndog

If you use the specialized plastic cups, then the Campy BB30 cups, it will work. I've seen two bikes setup that way that have a lot of miles on them.... no issues (yet). Still not ideal. I don't understand why they couldn't have just made the frames run normal PF30 BB widths. Their mountain bikes all use normal PF30. All of our S-works MTBs have the S-works cranks, but we use PF30 BB's from Sram instead of the pieces of junk Specialized sends with the cranks (i.e. the same small style plastic cups and BB30 sized bearings as the road bikes)

If they did that, you could just use the Campy PF30 cups and be done with it. 

Also, Specialized is making a Tarmac Expert level frame set available, but it isn't on the website. It is SL3 construction and still has a threaded BB. It's the same price as last year's Pro model (since it is essentially the same bike).


----------



## roadworthy

Corndog said:


> *If you use the specialized plastic cups, then the Campy BB30 cups, it will work. I've seen two bikes setup that way that have a lot of miles on them.... no issues (yet).* Still not ideal. I don't understand why they couldn't have just made the frames run normal PF30 BB widths. Their mountain bikes all use normal PF30. All of our S-works MTBs have the S-works cranks, but we use PF30 BB's from Sram instead of the pieces of junk Specialized sends with the cranks (i.e. the same small style plastic cups and BB30 sized bearings as the road bikes)
> 
> If they did that, you could just use the Campy PF30 cups and be done with it.
> 
> Also, Specialized is making a Tarmac Expert level frame set available, but it isn't on the website. It is SL3 construction and still has a threaded BB. It's the same price as last year's Pro model (since it is essentially the same bike).


Maybe you can explain this a bit further. Campy BB30 cups have a press in flange O.D. of 42mm. Specialized plastic cups, aka their version of PF30 have an inside diameter of 46mm. There is no way BB30 Campy cups can be pressed into Specialized plastic bushings...4mm of clearance between the two. Maybe you could elaborate a bit...


----------



## Corndog

The ID of the Specialized plastic cups, that you press into the frame is 42mm. When those are pressed in, the frame is effectively a BB30 frame. You can then press in the Campy BB30 cups and it will work. You might have to turn down the bearing shoulder on the specialized plastic press in cup to get the Campy unit installed. Some people have done this with a simple round file, others just press the cup in and haven't worried about it. 

It isn't the most elegant solution, but it will work. I've seen two bikes setup like this in person and there are a few over on weight weenies (star bike, not here).


----------



## roadworthy

Corndog said:


> The ID of the Specialized plastic cups, that you press into the frame is 42mm. When those are pressed in, the frame is effectively a BB30 frame. You can then press in the Campy BB30 cups and it will work. You might have to turn down the bearing shoulder on the specialized plastic press in cup to get the Campy unit installed. Some people have done this with a simple round file, others just press the cup in and haven't worried about it.
> 
> It isn't the most elegant solution, but it will work. I've seen two bikes setup like this in person and there are a few over on weight weenies (star bike, not here).


Thanks for your explanation. I will tell you what I am a bit surprised about however. That the lateral spacing is correct. Maybe this is where Spesh Sworks bike owners are going afoul when trying to mount Campy cranks. They are trying to fit Campy PF30 adapters to Specialized version of PF30. As expained in this thread, this combination will not fit because Specialized version of PF30 measures about 62mm across or 6 mm less than BB30. The issue that begs...is why is the lateral spacing of Campy BB30 adapters work? One would think they would be too narrow laterally. But perhaps this is the difference between Campy PF30 and Campy BB 30 adapters. If you think about it...both kinds of adapters press into a 42mm ID bore...one into an alloy BB30 bore and one into plastic 42mm ID bore. So the only difference between Campy adapters then is their lateral spacing. Maybe Campy's BB30 adapters to a Specialized Sworks PF30 bike is the ticket but I am a bit surprised the lateral spacing is perfect. What makes Campy cranks so fussy relative to lateral spacing as you know is there is no adjustability as lateral spacing unlike Shimano or even other cranks like Sram and Cannondale etc with removable left arm and one piece spindle...can not be changed with Campy cranks because of their unique design aka bearings pressed onto to spindle halves.
Thanks again.


----------



## Corndog

You are correct that the BB shell of the s-works bikes is narrower than a normal PF 30 frame or a BB30 frame. 

When you install the specialized plastic cups, the effective shell width becomes 68mm. This in essence converts the frame to a BB30 frame. That is why normally you just install a 6803 bearing into those cups and run any BB30 crank with no other spacers, etc. Specialized even states (in the BB PDF) the effective shell width becomes 68mm when you put their plastic cups into the frame. I've measured them in person and it all checks out. 

So, you use the Campy BB30 adapters in conjunction with the specialized adapters (which basically covered your frame to a BB30 frame). The Campy PF30 adapters will not work, because as you have noted, the spacing laterally is off. 

Again, this is a bit of a cobbled together solution, but it works just fine.


----------



## roadworthy

Corndog said:


> You are correct that the BB shell of the s-works bikes is narrower than a normal PF 30 frame or a BB30 frame.
> 
> When you install the specialized plastic cups, the effective shell width becomes 68mm. This in essence converts the frame to a BB30 frame. That is why normally you just install a 6803 bearing into those cups and run any BB30 crank with no other spacers, etc. Specialized even states (in the BB PDF) the effective shell width becomes 68mm when you put their plastic cups into the frame. I've measured them in person and it all checks out.
> 
> So, you use the Campy BB30 adapters in conjunction with the specialized adapters (which basically covered your frame to a BB30 frame). The Campy PF30 adapters will not work, because as you have noted, the spacing laterally is off.
> 
> Again, this is a bit of a cobbled together solution, but it works just fine.


Your post is quite a revelation and important info for all current if not prospective Sworks owners that like Campy. What defies understanding is that so many have been around and around on this issue including quite a bit of contact with Specialized and yet this solution hasn't surfaces until now...quite remarkable. As you imply, Campy's solution of using adapters for most gearheads isn't a very good one because Campy bearings are outside the BB shell and only held in place by a press fit...but some have gotten this solution to work at least. 
No doubt others will benefit by your post and thanks for sharing this solution.


----------



## Corndog

No worries. I wish I would have stumbled across this discussion earlier. 

The Campy solution isn't the best, but it is really about all they can do given their crank setup. It normally works just fine. I have two BB30 bikes, using their BB30 adapters, and a PF30 bike (using the PF30 cups). One of them creaked a bit, until I applied some thread locker on the cup. That was on the BB30 system where the bike had a metal sleeve. Other than that... I haven't had a single issue. Maybe I'm just lucky. 

What I can't forgive is Specialized not making their road frames standard PF30 width. As I mentioned, the MTB S-works are all standard PF30. Why they decided to make the road different escapes my mind. Even using the Specialized plastic cups and 6803 bearings, I've always seen a LOT of drag compared to a standard PF30 setup. 

Anyhow, good luck to everyone!


----------



## vaetuning

*S-works frame & Campy BB30 cups*

IT WILL NOT WORK - BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!

The cups will start rotating in the frame - the cups pry themselves out of the Delrin rings - or at least they try to!!

The crankset becomes very laterally sluggish, and with a powerfull rider, it WILL produce chainrub on the front deralieur!!

Yes, you can mount it like that - NO, it will not be a good solution!!

If anybody should have doubts by know - Let me clarify it once again!!

THE ONLY SOLUTION, IS THE ONE FROM A COMPANY CALLED C-BEAR!!

Yes, I had a solution machined myself, but it is way too expensive compared to the above mentioned company's solution.

Please - DO NOT start a discussion about this again - if anybody think the solution to our problems is mounting the Campy BB30 cups into the Delrin rings - THEY HAVE NOT READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!!

Please do so, and stop confusing everybody!!

Yours Respectfully

Mads


----------



## Corndog

Mads, 

Maybe it didn't work for you. But I have seen it work just fine. It can and will work. 

The machined solution is better, obviously.


----------



## vaetuning

Corndog said:


> Mads,
> 
> Maybe it didn't work for you. But I have seen it work just fine. It can and will work.
> 
> The machined solution is better, obviously.



Hi Corndog

You're absolutely right - it will work - but not at all as good, as it was intended to!!

If you read the previous posts - you´ll see that both Specialized & Campagnolo make clear that they have NO solution for mounting Campy UT cranks in S-Works OSBB frames - simply 'cos what they have on the shelf now, will NOT work correctly together - the performance of the UT cranks will suffer greatly - lateral play, chainrub e.t.c.

Hope you'll all bear with me, but it is of GREAT importance to me, that people understand that the only correct solution is a mechanical solution, of the likes afforementioned company produces - I would be very sad, if people thought badly of both Specialized and Campagnolo, because they had installed something incorrectly - thanks in advance!!

I'm a trained bike mechanic, 41 years old, riding and building bikes for many, many years, and I usually know what I'm talking about - if I have doubts 'bout something, I keep postulates to myself, until I can verify the facts!!

Yours Respectfully

Mads


----------



## Corndog

Mads, 

I'm not trying to disrespect you or your experience. I know of two bikes that have been using the system I mentioned for over a year *with no issues what so ever*. I have no dog in this fight. Just trying to help others out. If you are careful during installation, it has worked absolutely fine in the cases I have direct experience with. 

There is no chain rub, lateral play, etc on these cranks... and they are being ridden by people who are hard on equiptment. Others on weight weenies report exactly the same thing. 

The key to installation is turning down the bearing lip inside the plastic cup, as that is effectively the "c-clip" that would normally be in a BB30 frame. 

*Of course the machined solution is better *and one I would go with now. At the time, there was no other option but to try different things out and determine what would work. It's pretty obvious that neither Specialized or Campy are going to condone mixing a bunch of adapters together. You'd be a fool to think either would. 

I really can't imagine anyone would blame Specialized or Campy when trying out these solutions... that seems a bit out there. But of course some people are thick.

So: 1. Is the machined setup better? Of course!
2. Will the mentioned combination of adapters work? In my experience, yes.


----------



## roadworthy

Hi Mads,
Corndog has touched on one distinction differentiating Campy PF30 and BB30 adapters. If the protruding lip that interfaces with the C clip of the BB30 isn't turned down, then likely the amount of lateral engagement is reduced which would weaken the joint. Now to your point, by turning down this lip...does this diminish the radial interference between adapter flange and bushing ID...quite possible a modified BB30 adapter doesn't have the same robustness as a PF30 adapter flange. This small step is likely the key to success or lack there-of. Otherwise why wouldn't a BB30 Campy adapter be effective if spacing is correct? It comes down to engagement which is likely equivalent between PF30 and BB30Campy adapters...each with 42mm OD flange.

On a broader level and I have said this right along, a pressed in adaptor into a plastic bushing which is loaded externally with bearings located outside the BB shell is a bad idea. Campy's kluge to sell their cranksets on bikes they weren't designed for is more about profit than sound engineering judgement. I personally would not run any Campy adapter on any bike.
Cheers.
PS:
Now that it has been established that both Specialized versions of OSBB aka BB30 and more narrow PF30 have identical 68mm width (when PF30 has Specialized bushings pressed in) and of course identical bore inside diameter....below is what I would run in BOTH BB30 and PF30 Specialized bikes if I had a need to run Campy cranks. Rock solid.


----------



## Corndog

Roadworthy. 

You still aren't getting it. But you're close 

1. The specialized OSBB is the same bore diameter as PF30, but a narrower width. 

2. It is also narrower than BB30. 

3. When you install the Specialized cups into the OSBB, it places the bearings at BB30/PF30 width (effective shell width of 68mm, bearing spacing at 64mm). 

So, you can't use the adapter you listed, it is too wide for the specialized frame and would stick out on either side of the frame. There would be no way to center it properly or hold it into place the way it is designed. 

In theory you could take the specialzed cups, turn down the bearing retainer nub, press those into the frame, and then press that adapter in. That seems like a terrible idea. You'd still have to use the threaded Campy cups in that adapter. That's getting into Rube Goldberg territory.


----------



## -dustin

It won't work. In the short term, yes. But long term the plastic insert will deform (due to the Campy cups) the carbon shell leading to creaking and play. Once the shell is deformed, the frame is shot. To get it to work initially, the set up has to be rigged. I'm a dealer and I have seen the effects of trying. 

It's a $3000k frame. Do it correctly.


----------



## boyfriday

Can anyone confirm whether the warranty on the frame will be void if you decide to either:

(i) use the temporary solution (which has given rise to issues in some cases) of the Specialized reducer cups and the Campagnolo OS cups being put together, until the official fix is produced by Specialized; or

(ii) use the C-Bear OSBB adapter that is currently available?

I understand from Specialized in the UK that a fix is being produced in the US and is currently in testing, but it's unclear when this is likely to be available. Will this fix simply be something similar to the C-Bear solution? Does anyone have any idea how long such a process normally takes (or is that a "how long is a piece of string" question?

I have a frame ready to build, and don't mind waiting on the official fix, but ideally I would like to run something in the meantime that works and won't void the warranty on the frame. 

Many thanks


----------



## roadworthy

Corndog said:


> Roadworthy.
> 
> You still aren't getting it. But you're close
> 
> 1. The specialized OSBB is the same bore diameter as PF30, but a narrower width.
> 
> 2. It is also narrower than BB30.
> 
> 3. When you install the Specialized cups into the OSBB, it places the bearings at BB30/PF30 width (effective shell width of 68mm, bearing spacing at 64mm).
> 
> So, you can't use the adapter you listed, it is too wide for the specialized frame and would stick out on either side of the frame. There would be no way to center it properly or hold it into place the way it is designed.
> 
> In theory you could take the specialzed cups, turn down the bearing retainer nub, press those into the frame, and then press that adapter in. That seems like a terrible idea. You'd still have to use the threaded Campy cups in that adapter. That's getting into Rube Goldberg territory.


Actually Corndog, I believe the jury is coming in and many believe you are the one not getting it. I am not helping however  and best not to debate this any further. You have seen two set up as you propose with BB30 Campy adapters that work...and I believe you...but the question is...for how long? As stated, Plastic cups + modified alloy Campy adapters = already encroaching on Rube Goldberg territory...your proposed solution, not mine. In fact, Campy's entire PF30 solution even without modification...even if spacing were correct with Campy PF30 adapters on a Specialized PF30 frame is a VERY poor design. By contrast, an inserted alloy BB30 counter bore is a much more resilient press than an alloy adapter pressed into a plastic PF30 Specialized bushing...when pedaling forces are applied which try to peel the alloy cups away from the BB.
Good discussion anyway. 
In summary, it appears prevailing wisdom is:
- With Spesh BB-30 aka OSBB alloy, Campy BB30 adapters are plug and play with Campy cranks. Perhaps still not the best design, but several have run it with success. 
- For Spesh version of PF30: Don't install a Campy Crank.

And I will give you my personal bias...from a Campy guy....I would not install a Campy crank on any Specialized bike with OSBB...and that is from a guy who just installed a Campy crank on a Roubaix Pro with threaded BB.


----------



## Corndog

No, you are misunderstand me. I agree the plastic cup/campy combo on the carbon OSBB is not a good idea. 


I was simply making sure that you understand that you can't use the Sram BB30 threaded adapter (that you show the instructions for) on the carbon OSBB frames.


----------



## roadworthy

Corndog said:


> No, you are misunderstand me. I agree the plastic cup/campy combo on the carbon OSBB is not a good idea.
> 
> 
> *I was simply making sure that you understand that you can't use the Sram BB30 threaded adapter (that you show the instructions for) on the carbon OSBB frames*.


I disagree about the last. It would take a very minor modification to the Spesh press in bushings but the sleeve could be pressed in and if loctited which is the suggested practice, it would not move laterally and a much more elegant solution to what you propose aka modify the circlip lip of a BB30 Campy alloy adapter and press it into a Spesh plastic bushing...which won't hold very long.
Do you have a Spesh PF30 bike available to measure? The shell width of a PF30 Sworks bike is 62mm. Press in one PF30 Spesh plastic bushing on each side and this grows the width of the overall shell by the width of each plastic bushing flange lip. What does each plastic bushing lip measure in thickness? It can't be less than 2mm and is likely 3mm in thickness. What does that equal? 68mm width. Remove the inboard retaining lips from the Specialized plastic bushings to create a uniform 42mm ID. Press in the Sram 68mm threaded sleeve and what do you have? Line to line with outside of plastic lips on each each side of the PF30 BB shell. Thread on Campy threaded cups and what do they do? They apply a preload to hold the plastic bushings in place. To me this is far more robust solution to what you propose.


----------



## Corndog

The problem with what you describe is there is nothing to hold the pressed in insert in place laterally. The specialized cups were never designed to hold a sleeve in place, just to hold a BB30 bearing. 

The whole pressed in sleeve/campy threaded BB could shift from left to right. The plastic cups aren't going to hold that sram threaded sleeve in place. They weren't designed to hold a press fit insert in place laterally or take that kind of load. 

You really are better off just buying the machined inserts from germany.


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## roadworthy

Corndog said:


> The problem with what you describe is there is nothing to hold the pressed in insert in place laterally. The specialized cups were never designed to hold a sleeve in place, just to hold a BB30 bearing.
> 
> The whole pressed in sleeve/campy threaded BB could shift from left to right. The plastic cups aren't going to hold that sram threaded sleeve in place. They weren't designed to hold a press fit insert in place laterally or take that kind of load.
> 
> You really are better off just buying the machined inserts from germany.


Without testing it, hard to say if you are correct. Quite possible the amount of diametral interference between Sram sleeve and Spesh bushing ID in conjunction with Loctite would hold in place sufficiently. Lateral forces are probably on the order of 5% of vertical forces due to pedal forces so unless tested, pretty much impossible to quantify the amount of sheer force on the insert and whether it would need any help from the thread in cups to stay put laterally. When it comes to whether the Campy threaded in cups would contribute to lateral retention of the sleeve...depends upon the height of the shoulder of the thread cup relative to 42mm OD of the sleeve. I would say there is a good chance there is overlap and the cups are by design threaded in with 33 ft-lbs of torque and eminently capable of capturing the sleeve.

As to purchasing the pricey adapters from Germany, that is the last thing I would do. As well engineered as they are, they are still a redundant kluge. A PF30 BB is designed for a BB30 crank. A Campy crank is the least compatible crankset sold to work with PF30 due to maintaining its smaller bearings pressed on to respective spindle halves and inserting any PF30 BB really defeats the purpose or its benefit...which is to utilize a larger diameter spindle crank with greater moment of inertia with larger bearing ID and without the weight penalty of redundant adapters.


----------



## GONE4ARIDE

Could someone please post an active link to Specialized's 2012 bottom bracket tech bulletin for the S-Works Tarmac SL4 frameset? I have just scoured the Specialized website and I can't seem to find it.

Thanks.


----------



## GONE4ARIDE

GONE4ARIDE said:


> Could someone please post an active link to Specialized's 2012 bottom bracket tech bulletin for the S-Works Tarmac SL4 frameset? I have just scoured the Specialized website and I can't seem to find it.
> 
> Thanks.


Disregard my request - I just found it.


----------



## metoou2

read the entire Thread..........my goodness.
Anyways; I'm not trying to adapt Campy cranks to a Specialized.
All the bikes I have are BB30, and I'm doing research on PF30 in anticipation of a new ride. 
What caught my attention are the posts stating that Specialized PF30 shells are made to a unique width standard. That they are 62mm wide and NOT 68mm wide.

I've installed (3) BB30 bottom brkts in my bikes and I've seen PF30 bottom brackets and understand how they work. I have never had the opportunity to measure the different PF30 shell widths as offered by different bike companies.

SRAM and FSA Tech state that their PF30 btm brackets place the 30mm bearings in a slightly different location when compared to traditional BB30 bearing applications.
So what is going on, are the bearings in a PF30 system setting in a more outboard location? 

So my questions;
1) is Specialized truly unique in producing a 62mm wide PF30 shell? Or is 62mm the width all companies are using?

2) if the Specialized shell *is* unique (less wide), what are they trying to accomplish? Are they possibly trying to place the 30mm bearing BACK (more inboard) to a location that is identical to the traditional BB30 bearing location? 

Some stated that 62mm + 3mm lip (found on the PF30 cups) + 3mm for the other lip = 68mm. So what? That simple width measurement of 68mm is not part of the equation.
Cranks and crank components don't install against those 'lips'. Bearing shields and wave washers etc....install against bearing surfaces. Right? The width measurement that matters is the width from bearing to bearing.
And yes I realize the total shell width, lip to lip, is a concern when trying to not hit crank spiders and arms. 
So, back to question no. 2. Maybe they are trying to re-position the PF30 bearings? 

Variations within the PF30 design........so that creates a sub category in one of the already way too may designs?
After (20) yrs on a bike, I'm about to take up sailing. Sailing is all standardized, right?


----------



## Corndog

The specialized shell is in fact narrower than a normal PF30 setup. Who knows why they've done it. Probably so the SL4 S-works can have a normal PF30 shell 

The effective shell width, with the cups installed is indeed 68mm. The bearing seating location is a bit inboard (but still further out than the 62mm width of the carbon OSBB alone) at about 64mm. 

If you were to install a PF30 BB on the Specialized frame, the bearings would sit even further inboard than the 62mm shell width. If you had a custom length spindle crankset made, you could use it though


----------



## roadworthy

metoou2 said:


> read the entire Thread..........my goodness.
> Anyways; I'm not trying to adapt Campy cranks to a Specialized.
> All the bikes I have are BB30, and I'm doing research on PF30 in anticipation of a new ride.
> What caught my attention are the posts stating that Specialized PF30 shells are made to a unique width standard. That they are 62mm wide and NOT 68mm wide.
> 
> I've installed (3) BB30 bottom brkts in my bikes and I've seen PF30 bottom brackets and understand how they work. I have never had the opportunity to measure the different PF30 shell widths as offered by different bike companies.
> 
> SRAM and FSA Tech state that their PF30 btm brackets place the 30mm bearings in a slightly different location when compared to traditional BB30 bearing applications.
> So what is going on, are the bearings in a PF30 system setting in a more outboard location?
> 
> So my questions;
> 1) is Specialized truly unique in producing a 62mm wide PF30 shell? Or is 62mm the width all companies are using?
> 
> 2) if the Specialized shell *is* unique (less wide), what are they trying to accomplish? Are they possibly trying to place the 30mm bearing BACK (more inboard) to a location that is identical to the traditional BB30 bearing location?
> 
> Some stated that 62mm + 3mm lip (found on the PF30 cups) + 3mm for the other lip = 68mm. So what? That simple width measurement of 68mm is not part of the equation.
> Cranks and crank components don't install against those 'lips'. Bearing shields and wave washers etc....install against bearing surfaces. Right? The width measurement that matters is the width from bearing to bearing.
> And yes I realize the total shell width, lip to lip, is a concern when trying to not hit crank spiders and arms.
> So, back to question no. 2. Maybe they are trying to re-position the PF30 bearings?
> 
> Variations within the PF30 design........so that creates a sub category in one of the already way too may designs?
> After (20) yrs on a bike, I'm about to take up sailing. Sailing is all standardized, right?


Read 'em and weep: 

BB30, or 30 X 68 and 30 X 73mm bottom brackets, come in either 68mm or 73mm shell widths for road or mountain bikes. The spindle diameter is 30mm, and the 41mm-diameter bearings press straight into the BB shell and are held in place by snaprings. In addition to Cannondale (who named the system) and Specialized (which doesn’t call its system BB30), FSA and SRAM (TruVativ) make BB30 cranksets; Shimano does not, and Campagnolo makes press-in adaptor cups to fit its Ultra-Torque (and Fulcrum Racing-Torq) cranks to a BB30 shell.

Scott and Shimano came up with BB83/BB86, often called the “Shimano system,” but not by Shimano. It accepts a standard 24 X 90mm road or 24 X 95mm MTB crank spindle. The shell is 86.5mm wide with a 41mm ID. The bearing has a 37mm OD and is pressed into a nylon insert with a 41mm OD that presses into the frame . Each insert’s shoulder is 1.75mm wide, creating the 90mm width and hence the BB90 name. Shimano, FSA and SRAM offer BBs to fit this shell; Campagnolo makes press-in adaptor cups to fit its Ultra-Torque (and Fulcrum Racing-Torq) cranks to BB83/BB86 shells.

BB92 is the MTB version of the BB83/BB86 with a 91.5mm wide shell for MTB triple cranks. Again, the 3.5mm of the two shoulders add width to 95mm.
BB90 is Trek’s Campy- (and Shimano-, SRAM-, FSA-) compatible Madone system. The BB shell is 90mm wide by 37mm ID. The 37mm OD bearings (the same bearings as inside an external-bearing cup) insert directly into the carbon frame and accept integrated-spindle cranks.

BB95 is the MTB version of BB90 with a 95mm wide shell on the new Trek Top Fuel and Fuel EX carbon.

Wilier’s new system has a 94mm wide BB into which a Campagnolo Ultra-Torque (or Fulcrum Racing-Torq) crankset fits directly without cups or retaining clip.


----------



## metoou2

Roadworthy, when I first saw your post my first reaction was; "ya, ya I know all of that". As I read on, my reaction became; "I know most that"...............it quickly degenerated into; "I don't know squat about all the btm brkt designs out right now!" I know the names of them, whatever that's worth. 

I do know BB30, know it well. Been on it for many years. I'm about to jump ship and join the cult of Specialized. Just trying to get some education regarding the PF30 system.

Any speculation as to why the Specialized PF30 shell is 62mm?


----------



## roadworthy

metoou2 said:


> Roadworthy, when I first saw your post my first reaction was; "ya, ya I know all of that". As I read on, my reaction became; "I know most that"...............it quickly degenerated into; "I don't know squat about all the btm brkt designs out right now!" I know the names of them, whatever that's worth.
> 
> I do know BB30, know it well. Been on it for many years. I'm about to jump ship and join the cult of Specialized. Just trying to get some education regarding the PF30 system.
> 
> Any speculation as to why the Specialized PF30 shell is 62mm?


Hi metoou2,
I join the chorus of perplexed about the proliferation of all the different BB's out there. Its kind of run amuck with lack of standardization. I posted the different scerarios to in part show just how confused the industry is. There is virtually no advantage to any of the slight differences other than they create a proprietary environment and a method of creating a marketing niche. As to why the skinnier width of Specialized PF30...I believe they do this to sell more Specialized cranks. Ironically Specialized more or less stole the hirth joint from Campy's crank design...but where they prospered by reverse engineering is...they had the foresight to have the bearings be separate from spindle halves. What this allows is revise the spacing allowing the same Specialized crank part number to be used with both different spaced BB30 and PF30...by simple adding a spacer to PF30 bikes. What precludes Campy of course...is their pressed on bearings are frozen in space and therefore lateral spacing can't be revised with a spacer and hence all the hoopla over trying to get Campy cranks to bolt to a PF30 Sworks bike.
Anyway...it gives bike guys like us something to talk about. I have said many times as a result, I would not install a Campy crank on a Sworks bike...and I run one on my new Roubaix Pro and it is excellent.
Cheers.


----------



## -dustin

Stop thinking of the Specialized deal as PF30. It's not. It is OSBB which is compatible with cranks designed with BB30 bottom brackets in mind.


----------



## metoou2

-dustin said:


> Stop thinking of the Specialized deal as PF30. It's not. It is OSBB which is compatible with cranks designed with BB30 bottom brackets in mind.


Give us some background on the 62mm shell, will ya?

NOT PF30? I thought Tarmac S-works frameset was PF30
and the Tarmac Pro frameset was OSBB(specialized code -word for BB30)
The pics on their site sure look that way.


----------



## metoou2

roadworthy said:


> Hi metoou2,
> What precludes Campy of course...is their pressed on bearings are frozen in space and therefore lateral spacing can't be revised with a spacer and hence all the hoopla over trying to get Campy cranks to bolt to a PF30 Sworks bike.
> Anyway...it gives bike guys like us something to talk about. I have said many times as a result, I would not install a Campy crank on a Sworks bike...and I run one on my new Roubaix Pro and it is excellent.
> Cheers.


Campy presses their bearing onto the spindle.............my goodness. These are cranks not a turbine in a jet engine! I had no idea. 

You wouldn't put a UT crank on a Specialized? I never got that impression reading your posts. 
:lol::lol:


----------



## roadworthy

-dustin said:


> Stop thinking of the Specialized deal as PF30. It's not. It is OSBB which is compatible with cranks designed with BB30 bottom brackets in mind.


Part of the problem with this thread is the interpretation of words. OSBB is a Specialized 'marketing term' Specialized carbon OSBB is PF-30 albeit one with slightly narrower spacing than industry standard. All other aspects are identical including 46mm uniform through bore with plastic cup inserts to allow BB30 bearing usage.


----------



## roadworthy

metoou2 said:


> Campy presses their bearing onto the spindle.............my goodness. These are cranks not a turbine in a jet engine! I had no idea.
> 
> You wouldn't put a UT crank on a Specialized? I never got that impression reading your posts.
> :lol::lol:


In a threaded BB application...what they were designed for...they work perfectly. The BB is very simple...only threaded cups to hold the bearings and about $20...but...the bearings are a special size and require a special tool to extract them...they can be pushed back on with a hollow dowel...but need a caliper type puller to remove them. The bearings aren't cheap but they last for many miles. So Campy cranks work great for a threaded BB...see my Chorus crankset below. They are however a poor match for a BB30 because:
- lateral spacing isn't adjustable
- bearings are smaller than BB30 size
- bearings reside outboard BB shell, i.e. need to still satisfy external bearing spindle length...what they are...which tends to leverage/peel the Campy adapters away from the BB due to pedal forces which is the biggest design faux pas. The only thing applying lateral force to Campy adapters to keep them in place is the wave washer and so pretty much the entire onus comes down to the integrity of the press...which in the case of Spesh PF30, is between plastic cups and thin gauge alloy adapter flange...not good.


----------



## ejprez

Dude the only time I'm confused is when you post something to have the last word, when pretty much everyone on here knows the ins and outs of the OSBB, bb30 and pf30. 
You keep posting the same thing and this whole thread is going in circles, is it possible for the OP to just delete the whole thing. Cause someone looking for this info will be greatly confused. That or this should be limited to people who actually own a tarmac or work at a specialized dealer. I don't see the point of reposting the same thing, about how this is narrower than that, and this is the same as that and etc numerous times.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

I have an SWorks Tarmac with Campy SR11 Ultra Torque crank. I used the 68x42 cups from Campy and it went together real slick. It is winter here in Utah and I had the bike built in October, so i probably don't have 1,000 miles on it yet.

Is there anything I need to be concerned about? Oh yeah, and in case it matters, mine is an SL3 not an SL4. It does have the carbon OSBB.

It is installed with the delrin cups first, then the campy cups. I didn't build it...the bike shop did...but he said it went together perfectly.


----------



## vaetuning

*Yes - be concerned!!*



Cyclin Dan said:


> I have an SWorks Tarmac with Campy SR11 Ultra Torque crank. I used the 68x42 cups from Campy and it went together real slick. It is winter here in Utah and I had the bike built in October, so i probably don't have 1,000 miles on it yet.
> 
> Is there anything I need to be concerned about? Oh yeah, and in case it matters, mine is an SL3 not an SL4. It does have the carbon OSBB.
> 
> It is installed with the delrin cups first, then the campy cups. I didn't build it...the bike shop did...but he said it went together perfectly.


Hi Cyclin Dan

Yup, they put it together as they thought best, but it is NOT the ideal way to install UT cranks in carbon OSBB!!

They should only be installed with the C-Bear adapter or something similar - end of discussion!!

Yours Respectfully

Mads


----------



## vaetuning

*Confusion!?*



ejprez said:


> Dude the only time I'm confused is when you post something to have the last word, when pretty much everyone on here knows the ins and outs of the OSBB, bb30 and pf30.
> You keep posting the same thing and this whole thread is going in circles, is it possible for the OP to just delete the whole thing. Cause someone looking for this info will be greatly confused. That or this should be limited to people who actually own a tarmac or work at a specialized dealer. I don't see the point of reposting the same thing, about how this is narrower than that, and this is the same as that and etc numerous times.


DUDE - the above is kind of funny coming from you, as you where the one who insisted to keep confusing the readers of this thread, with your postulates of "but I checked around and it seems like others have had success in using a Carbon OSBB with Campy.", and so on"....Postulates like that, will keep on confusing people!!

Only constructive comment you have made so far, was the one earlier - WAY EARLIER!!, in this thread, where you said, that it would be great if Specialized made a Campy 135mm spider for their cranks - THERE you had a point!!

The reason why Roadworthy keep on posting the same over and over again, is probably 'cos somebody keep saying something will work, when they clearly have no idea, what they are talking about!!

The above will be my only "angry" post, and I felt compelled to tell you of, as I actually find that Roadworthy has gone to great lenghts, just to show people what the issues are!!

Yours respectfully

Mads


----------



## ejprez

Not prob, glad somebody is taking some sort of interest in what I'm saying and not making the thread 3 pages longer to do it. Yeah I checked around on the WW forums and another one, some people had success and left it there. And look now we had people who actually have alloy and carbon OSBB's and say they work. And then others chime in saying it's not possible or not a good idea. how about wait until we hear back from them like at the end of the season before someone tells them they are wrong over and over and over. Do what I've been doing, go out and actually ride your tarmac SL3 or 4, pro or sworks. Got three hours in on Friday on mine. 



vaetuning said:


> DUDE - the above is kind of funny coming from you, as you where the one who insisted to keep confusing the readers of this thread, with your postulates of "but I checked around and it seems like others have had success in using a Carbon OSBB with Campy.", and so on"....Postulates like that, will keep on confusing people!!
> 
> Only constructive comment you have made so far, was the one earlier - WAY EARLIER!!, in this thread, where you said, that it would be great if Specialized made a Campy 135mm spider for their cranks - THERE you had a point!!
> 
> The reason why Roadworthy keep on posting the same over and over again, is probably 'cos somebody keep saying something will work, when they clearly have no idea, what they are talking about!!
> 
> The above will be my only "angry" post, and I felt compelled to tell you of, as I actually find that Roadworthy has gone to great lenghts, just to show people what the issues are!!
> 
> Yours respectfully
> 
> Mads


----------



## Cyclin Dan

vaetuning said:


> Hi Cyclin Dan
> 
> Yup, they put it together as they thought best, but it is NOT the ideal way to install UT cranks in carbon OSBB!!
> 
> They should only be installed with the C-Bear adapter or something similar - end of discussion!!
> 
> Yours Respectfully
> 
> Mads


Mads, I have to say I didn't divulge all the information in my first post. I should add that I know several people at Specialized and because of that I had access to reach some people on the phone that the normal consumer probably couldn't reach (but I'm sure a dealer could). I not only spoke with engineers at their headquarters in Morgan Hill who had been testing this extensively and gave it the green light, but I stopped by their facility here in SLC, UT and had it looked at....and got another green light. Specialized says with those new cups it works great. 

I actually waited a considerable amount of time (months) whole they conducted further testing before I pulled the trigger on SR11. I had resigned to the fact that I was going to go Di2, but after hearing about the testing already underway I waited, and I'm glad I did. 

I'm not going to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do, but Specialized told me they were fine with how mine was installed and they were actually the ones that told me what cups to use to make it work.


----------



## vaetuning

Cyclin Dan said:


> Mads, I have to say I didn't divulge all the information in my first post. I should add that I know several people at Specialized and because of that I had access to reach some people on the phone that the normal consumer probably couldn't reach (but I'm sure a dealer could). I not only spoke with engineers at their headquarters in Morgan Hill who had .......
> 
> Hi
> 
> Could you please take some photos of the solution used on your bike then, and post them here??
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Yours respectfully
> 
> Mads


----------



## Cyclin Dan

Here you go...lowered my bike from the location it hangs from high in the rafters for a couple quick pictures. Sorry if the size is crazy, uploading from my phone.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

PS...my garage normally isn't that messy. We're about to move in to a new house and as we get packed/prepared to move the garage is quickly becoming an unorganized catch all. 

Quite embarrassing actually.


----------



## roadworthy

Cyclin Dan said:


> PS...my garage normally isn't that messy. We're about to move in to a new house and as we get packed/prepared to move the garage is quickly becoming an unorganized catch all.
> 
> Quite embarrassing actually.


What defies understanding based upon all that has been written in this thread that Campy cranks won't work with Spesh Sworks PF30 Campy adapters due to the narrow BB shell on Sworks bikes...that yours works. Doesn't make sense.
PS: nice bike Dan and that's what they all say about their garages  Good luck with the move.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

roadworthy said:


> What defies understanding based upon all that has been written in this thread that Campy cranks won't work with Spesh Sworks PF30 Campy adapters due to the narrow BB shell on Sworks bikes...that yours works. Doesn't make sense.
> PS: nice bike Dan and that's what they all say about their garages  Good luck with the move.


It works just like the engineers at Specialized promised me it would. 

Thanks for the compliments and the bike and the well wishes on the move. We're going to have both houses for about 60 days, so we won't be in a big rush. And their only a few miles apart, so it shouldn't be too bad.


----------



## bikerjulio

see this:

http://service.specialized.com/collateral/ownersguide/new/assets/pdf/Bottom-Bracket---Oversized-Road-Bottom-Bracket.pdf

and the quote relating to the OSBB:



> Shell width: 61mm
> (68mm with press-in cups)


Guess they changed their minds & OK'd Campy BB30 cups to be pressed into their standard cups.


----------



## -dustin

Curious which engineers you spoke with. 

As in, names. PM if you'd like.


----------



## bigmac

*C-Bear Adaptor*

Mads!

I just wondered if you had a chance yet to ride using the C-Bear adaptor ? I have purchased one but haven't had the courage to fit it yet, i also, probably stupidly, purchased the version for regular cups so i may have a challenge tightening and loosening them off!

Did you use Loctite ? There weren't any installation instructions and Bart said it's OK to fit without but I hate any kind of squeak or creak and really don't want to mess about taking it out once it's in!

I'd certainly appreciate any feedback on your installation ?

My intention would be to fit it to a 2012 Venge

Regards


----------



## vaetuning

*On the road with C-Bear*



bigmac said:


> Mads!
> 
> I just wondered if you had a chance yet to ride using the C-Bear adaptor ? I have purchased one but haven't had the courage to fit it yet, i also, probably stupidly, purchased the version for regular cups so i may have a challenge tightening and loosening them off!
> 
> Did you use Loctite ? There weren't any installation instructions and Bart said it's OK to fit without but I hate any kind of squeak or creak and really don't want to mess about taking it out once it's in!
> 
> I'd certainly appreciate any feedback on your installation ?
> 
> My intention would be to fit it to a 2012 Venge
> 
> Regards


Hi Bicmac

The weather finally allowed me to get on the road with my summer bike!!

After installing the C-Bear OSBB carbon to BSA conversion, I was rather curious / nervous if the solution would be stiff & silent.....!!

I'm happy to say it was - there where no squeaks or creaks at all!!

Nothing had moved, and everything looked as it did directly after installing the kit!

Really happy with my purchase!!

The crankset / crankbox itself seemed stiffer than ever - even stiffer than with my own 2 machined press in cups - I guess that the improved stiffness is due to the fact that the C-Bear sleeve goes all the way through the OSBB, and is then secured with a collar with a machined resess on the left side of the OSBB.

I installed the kit with a type of pipe / thread sealer, which does not cure to a rock hard material, but rather cures into a semi hard / semi guey kind of material.
I did this, as I had very god results with it, when I installed the machined press in cups, I had made - they really gave me a hard time, as I tried to get them out!

The sealer is from a company called Würth, with the item no.:0893 577 050-B

Concerning you buying the C-Bear conversion kit in BSA - I really do think you should contact Bart again, send it back, and have it changed to ITAL.
As ITAL has right hand threads on both cups, it makes the installation so much easier.

He quotes a nice price on the ITAL cups as well - just remember to order the ones to be used with your crankset!

With respect

Mads


----------



## bigmac

Hi Mads,

Great response, 

Thanks for your advice, i'll give it a try!


----------



## Merseypride

I've been following this thread with interest. I've just built up my Venge with full Record groupset and have gone with the Campag pressfit cups in the Spesh delrim cups. I've used loctite 603 and activator 7479. Will see how i go, if i experience any problems i'll go with the C bear adapter

I appreicate some have had problems running this set up like this, whilst others have it running problem free. I've giving it a shot. I've run Ultra Torque pressfit adapters with loctite on my R5 Bbright frameset without problems so gues i'll just see what happens.


----------



## bigmac

Wicked bike - i love it, i'll be interested to see how you get on with the installation - good luck!

I recently saw some images of the launch of the Sigma Pro team and their S Works SL4's had Super Record cranks fitted but when i asked how they did it the response was that it didn't work and they were now using Specialized cranks!


----------



## roadworthy

Mads...since you studied the spacing on Specialized PF-30 bike more than anybody and why you made custom cups and then ordered the Bear adapter...
can you explain how Merseypride was able to mount Campy PF30 cups to a Sworks bike?
It doesn't make sense that the spacing would work.

Merseypride...did you really use Campy PF30 cups...or did you use Campy BB30 cups on your PF30
bike?
Thanks.
PS: wicked cool Venge Mersey...sweet bike.


----------



## Merseypride

I used the Campagnolo Ultra Torque BB30 adapter. 68x42.

I filed the lip off the inside of the Specialized delrin cups which normally seats the bearing in a standard BB30 set up.Then i used Loctite 603 with Loctite Activator 7479 to fit them into the carbon BB shell. I then used the same process to fit the Ultra Torque adapters into the delrin cups and used a bottom bracket press to set it all.

Will be riding the bike on the local chaingang tomorrow and giving it some hammer so will keep you posted on how it goes.


----------



## roadworthy

Merseypride said:


> I used the Campagnolo Ultra Torque BB30 adapter. 68x42.
> 
> I filed the lip off the inside of the Specialized delrin cups which normally seats the bearing in a standard BB30 set up.Then i used Loctite 603 with Loctite Activator 7479 to fit them into the carbon BB shell. I then used the same process to fit the Ultra Torque adapters into the delrin cups and used a bottom bracket press to set it all.
> 
> Will be riding the bike on the local chaingang tomorrow and giving it some hammer so will keep you posted on how it goes.


Well done Mersey and thanks for the clarification. I believe with your attention to detail your solution has a good chance of working. Loctite should really improve the ability of the Campy external adapters to stay in place. I believe the alternative practice is to modify the Campy BB30 adapters versus the modify the plastic PF30 bushings pressed into the BB.
You know the beauty of your approach no doubt...no possiblity of degrading your beautiful Venge frame. Worse case...all you do is install new plastic Specialized bushings and you have a fresh start. It seems that prevailing wisdom is...with PF30 universally even independent of using a Campy crank, using a serviceable Loctite between the plastic bushings and 46mm ID carbon shell hole keeps the bushings in place better and less susceptible to creak. In the case of Campy alloy adapters which are a clear kluge as you know...Locitite is clearly your friend there to keep the alloy adapters from peeling away from the plastic bushings.
I believe you did it right.
Cheers.
PS: If I were a younger man, I would be strongly tempted by your incredible bike. I just can't take the riding position for the kind of miles I do. Enjoy that bad boy.


----------



## Merseypride

Cheers guys. I'll keep you posted on how it goes


----------



## vaetuning

*Conc. PF30 cups*



roadworthy said:


> Mads...since you studied the spacing on Specialized PF-30 bike more than anybody and why you made custom cups and then ordered the Bear adapter...
> can you explain how Merseypride was able to mount Campy PF30 cups to a Sworks bike?
> It doesn't make sense that the spacing would work.
> 
> Merseypride...did you really use Campy PF30 cups...or did you use Campy BB30 cups on your PF30
> bike?
> Thanks.
> PS: wicked cool Venge Mersey...sweet bike.


Hi Roadworthy
I believe Merseypride cleared it all up for us in his answer to you!!
Very sweet ride by the way - congrats to you Merceypride

I also think that his solution is ok - I myself had a try on a similar solution as his (delrin rings, BB30 cups), with some different loctites, but without any luck though!!
I couldn't cure the Loctite, but I did not have any activator available.

Nevertheless - if you are a very powerfull rider, you will feel a difference in stiffness on all 3 solutions:
1) Delrin rings & Campy BB30 press fit cups. - OK, but not as lateral stiff as no. 2 & 3.
2) Homemade Alu Press fit cups (OSBB to BSA adaptors), much stiffer than solution 1, but not as stiff as solution 3.
3) C-bear adaptor / conversion with Ital cups - Very, Very stiff solution - no flex at all - and I'm a former bodybuilder (190cm & 108kg), and if it aint stiff - I'll flex it!!.

And yeah - I'm quite fanatic about my gear, so if I think there's a better solution, than
the one I'm currently using - I'll pay what it takes to try that solution - period!!
I'm not rich - at all - but I'm willing to NOT buy anything new and trendy, just to have money to spend on my bikes and gear!!
I drive a 12 year old car - have not bought any new clothes, for as long as I can remember, and so on....

Therefore I just had to try the C-Bear solution - very happy that I did!!

Ohh, by the way - I would love to see some pictures of your beautifull Roubaix, Roadworthy!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

Hi Mads,
Excellent review and makes sense structually. Do you happen to have any pics of the C-Bear solution?...what the parts consist of? Also, why a priority on having an italian thread for the Campy cups? English threaded Campy cups in my experience work fine and stay nice and tight because of direction of pedal rotation on each side.

PS: as requested, please see a pic of my '12 Roubaix Pro in its current form...size 58cm. Campy 10s...mostly carbon...Chorus compact crank...Speedplay...Toupe saddle..FSA Kwing carbon bar...Ritchey carbon matrix stem 110mm. I am very pleased with this bike...really all I could ask. Built if for long rides...doing a metric century today in fact...unseasonably warm weather for March. Adapting a Campy UT crank to the english threaded BB on the Pro is a whole lot easier.


----------



## aktran

Hi there, I'm having a problem with my bike and hope you can help. The frame is Ti with PF30 BB shell, and I use Campu adapter cups directly fit into the Ti shell.

The spacing and everything work great. However the drive side cup keeps loosening up after a few hard ride, and once that happens the squeak is on.

I tried using loctite, and more recently Teflon tape, bit it still comes loose. I'll appreciate any pointers.

Dustin


----------



## vaetuning

*C-Bear with ITAL cups - Why??*

Hi there

A short explanation as to why one should order the C-Bear kit with the appropriate ITAL cups for ones Campy UT crank:

First, the conversion kit consists of 2 parts - one long cylindrical sleeve, which is pressed into the OSBB from the right side of the frame.
Furthermore the kit contains one plate / collar with a grove / recess machined into the inside, which goes towards the frame on the left side.

When you have pressed the sleeve into the OSBB from the right side, you still need to pull the sleeve a little further to the left, which you can do by placing the collar against the OSBB on the left side, and then tightening the 2 ITAL cups - WHICH BOTH HAVE RIGHT HAND THREADS - therefore you are able to both pull the sleeve all the way into its place, and securing the collar to the sleeve in one operation, without the risk of only rotating the 
Sleeve!!
Whereas, if you had normal BSA cups - both cups would have to be tightened towards the rear of the frame, so it would only be the press fit between, the sleeve & the OSBB carbon tube itself, that acted as a counter when tightening - NOT ideal!!

Sadly I have no pictures of the kit uninstalled - when I received it, I only had my mind set on the installation - nothing else - I apologize!!

I can post some pics of the kit installed however??!

With respect

Mads


----------



## vaetuning

PS: as requested, please see a pic of my '12 Roubaix Pro in its current form...size 58cm. Campy 10s...mostly carbon...Chorus compact crank...Speedplay...Toupe saddle..FSA Kwing carbon bar...Ritchey carbon matrix stem 110mm. I am very pleased with this bike...really all I could ask. Built if for long rides...doing a metric century today in fact...unseasonably warm weather for March. Adapting a Campy UT crank to the english threaded BB on the Pro is a whole lot easier. [/QUOTE]

Roadworthy - your bike is beautiful - may you have many, many pleasant hours with it!!

With respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

Hi Mads,
You really know your stuff and nice to correspond with you. Your explanation makes perfect sense and Italian threads are the way to go for sure in this application for the reasons you explain.

Thanks for the comment on the bike. It doesn't have quite the racer's edge visually of a slammed Venge or Tarmac, but I have gotten tons of compliments on it since rolling it out this spring. The shape of the tubes is what I would call organic if not art deco..lol...and the matte finish gives it kind of a hot rod look. The bike has a fantastic combination of ride quality and stiffness...Specialized engineers nailed the balance. As mentioned, I rode it last night out to the park where I meet my riding buddies. Its 20 miles to the park from where I live and to get there I ride over all kinds of terrain...bike path, side walks with curbs, some climbing etc...a mix of smooth and bumpy stuff. In summary I can ride this bke a longer distance than other race bikes that are as stiff, but feel less beat up after the ride.
The thing I like about the Roubaix is once I make it to the park, I give up nothing in terms of speed to my buddies on their Cervelos, TCR's etc. I plan on many miles on the bike and thanks for your comments Mads.
Cheers


----------



## Merseypride

Hi Mads,
I'd appreciate some pics of the c bear adapter installed incase i run into problems.

Just to update you on my install. I've ridden a few chaingangs on the Venge now, a 100 mile ride last week, including a hill with a 25% ramp. And also a hilly ride today and am pleased to report no movement at all in my cups. I'm keeping a close eye on it and it all looks good and the cranks spin freely. I can't comment on the stiffness of the setup as thats the only set up i've tried so i've got no reference to say whether it could be better or not. For the time being i'm happy.

By the way. I've had 2 Cervelo's before the Venge, an R3 SL and an R5. I got to say the Venge is so so much faster than either of the Cervelo's and i can't notice any decrease in stiffness over either R series bikes.

This is my first Specialized bike ever and i'm luuuurvin it 

Everywhere i've parked it up at cyclist cafe's its drawn a crowd. The matt finish on the frame and the matt wheels make for a full on stealth flying machine. Bugger to keep clean thou with finger prints ;-o


----------



## ejprez

New campy bb30 adaptor, looks like a winner to me.

BB30 Adapter for Campagnolo Cranks


----------



## wetpaint

I don't think that will work, The new frames are PF30 not BB30. I've tried putting a BB30 adapter in my SL3 and it rubs on the cups that are in the frame.


----------



## ejprez

Well there's only one way to find out but looks promising to me. Remember to note the difference between a carbon and alloy OSBB, which are NOT PF30. 7 pages of this have determined that,or we can just debate it and add a couple extra pages of posts.


----------



## kiekeboeboe

I own a Sworks SL3 Roubaix from 2011, this is also PF30.
However my Sworks uses Campa Athena Power Torque cranks.
My LBS installed the power torque cranks, and i've ridden 1000km with this bike so far, without any problems.
I dont know what setup they used, but everything feels superstiff.


----------



## kiekeboeboe

Here some pics of the Athena Power Torque on my 2011 Sworks Roubaix
I've ridden the last 120km of the "Ronde van Vlaanderen", this is "The Tour of Flanders" no problems at all.


----------



## kiekeboeboe

Apparently, my LBS in Belgium managed to install 2 BSA (1,37 x 24) Power-Torque External BB Cups.
He used some kind of adapter, I dont know how he did it, but at this time its rock solid.
If its possible with Power-torque cups, the same should be possible with Ultra-torque Cups.
He build this bike for me in march, only a few weeks ago. It is a Specialized store in Belgium, where several well known Belgian Triathletes buy there stuff. So I guess, that any good LBS, should be able to do the same


----------



## roadworthy

kiekeboeboe said:


> Here some pics of the Athena Power Torque on my 2011 Sworks Roubaix
> I've ridden the last 120km of the "Ronde van Vlaanderen", this is "The Tour of Flanders" no problems at all.


You have some sort of threaded sleeve pressed into the plastic PF30 bushings that Specialized uses...deduced from the fact you have Campy threaded cups in place with your set up. Question is...which sleeve did your bike shop use?
My personal view is...a single threaded sleeve that presses through the two plastic bushings is the most solid approach...provided it will stay in place laterally.


----------



## vaetuning

*Pics of C-bear install*



kiekeboeboe said:


> Apparently, my LBS in Belgium managed to install 2 BSA (1,37 x 24) Power-Torque External BB Cups.
> He used some kind of adapter, I dont know how he did it, but at this time its rock solid.
> If its possible with Power-torque cups, the same should be possible with Ultra-torque Cups.
> He build this bike for me in march, only a few weeks ago. It is a Specialized store in Belgium, where several well known Belgian Triathletes buy there stuff. So I guess, that any good LBS, should be able to do the same


Hi All

Merceypride; Sorry for the delay concerning pictures of my C-bear install - I have been engaged otherwise (very, very busy at work).

Kiekeboeboe beat me to it - the pictures of his beautiful bike clearly shows a C-Bear OSBB / BSA adapter when it is installed!!

So folks - there you have it... - The perfect solution to all of your troubles - and it only weighs about 80grams!!

Kiekeboeboe - You're right the solution from C-Bear which you have installed is ROCK solid - the stiffest of all solutions to mount UT cranks to a carbon OSBB frame!!
Congrats to you - the people who built your bike, sure knew what they where doing.
May you have many, many splendid hours with your beautiful bike!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## kiekeboeboe

vaetuning said:


> Hi All
> 
> Merceypride; Sorry for the delay concerning pictures of my C-bear install - I have been engaged otherwise (very, very busy at work).
> 
> Kiekeboeboe beat me to it - the pictures of his beautiful bike clearly shows a C-Bear OSBB / BSA adapter when it is installed!!
> 
> So folks - there you have it... - The perfect solution to all of your troubles - and it only weighs about 80grams!!
> 
> Kiekeboeboe - You're right the solution from C-Bear which you have installed is ROCK solid - the stiffest of all solutions to mount UT cranks to a carbon OSBB frame!!
> Congrats to you - the people who built your bike, sure knew what they where doing.
> May you have many, many splendid hours with your beautiful bike!!
> 
> With Respect
> 
> Mads


Thanks Mads!
Next time when I'm at my LBS, I'll tell them about the discussion over here.
Yours is also a very beautiful bike, and those Lightweight wheels  OMG they are so cool!!!


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi All
> 
> Merceypride; Sorry for the delay concerning pictures of my C-bear install - I have been engaged otherwise (very, very busy at work).
> 
> Kiekeboeboe beat me to it - the pictures of his beautiful bike clearly shows a C-Bear OSBB / BSA adapter when it is installed!!
> 
> So folks - there you have it... - The perfect solution to all of your troubles - and it only weighs about 80grams!!
> 
> Kiekeboeboe - You're right the solution from C-Bear which you have installed is ROCK solid - the stiffest of all solutions to mount UT cranks to a carbon OSBB frame!!
> Congrats to you - the people who built your bike, sure knew what they where doing.
> May you have many, many splendid hours with your beautiful bike!!
> 
> With Respect
> 
> Mads


Hi Mads,
Makes sense...a solid internally threaded sleeve is the way to go...cups can't unzip and dislodge from the BB due to pedal forces as with Campy's pressed in adapters.

Do you have a web link to the C-Bear sleeve?...curious what it looks like...presume it is similar to the Sram BSA sleeve.

For installation procedure..does the inner lip of the Specialized PF30 plastic bushing that typically retains 30mm ID BB30 bearings...need to be removed with a file or dremmel to accomodate a thru sleeve? I would think a uniform single sleeve couldn't be employed with plastic bushings because of the inner lip that retains BB30 bearings...unless the C-bear is not a one piece sleeve. Can you explain?

Lastly, is Loctite spec'ed to keep the sleeve from shifting laterally after being pressed in?

Thanks.


----------



## vaetuning

*Link to C-Bear*



roadworthy said:


> Hi Mads,
> Makes sense...a solid internally threaded sleeve is the way to go...cups can't unzip and dislodge from the BB due to pedal forces as with Campy's pressed in adapters.
> 
> Do you have a web link to the C-Bear sleeve?...curious what it looks like...presume it is similar to the Sram BSA sleeve.
> 
> For installation procedure..does the inner lip of the Specialized PF30 plastic bushing that typically retains 30mm ID BB30 bearings...need to be removed with a file or dremmel to accomodate a thru sleeve? I would think a uniform single sleeve couldn't be employed with plastic bushings because of the inner lip that retains BB30 bearings...unless the C-bear is not a one piece sleeve. Can you explain?
> 
> Lastly, is Loctite spec'ed to keep the sleeve from shifting laterally after being pressed in?
> 
> Thanks.


Hi Roadworthy & everybody else

Here's the link: http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k410/a58428/osbb-race-campa-keramik-innenlager.html?mfid=573

The picture of the adapter you see when you follow the link, is a little misleading, as the one side of the adapter has the recessed collar / washer on the left side of the adapter placed as if it was assembled.
So the adapter is actually a long tube with a lip / collar on the right side that presses against the right side of the frame / OSBB, and a washer on the left side that presses against the left side of the frame / OSBB, when the UT cups is tightened (one of the UT cups goes through the hole in the left washer, the threads are in the long tube itself).

When installing the C-Bear adapter, you do NOT use any delrin rings or bushings of any sort - the adapter is pressed directly into the carbon OSBB!! - that is also a reason for it being so stiff I believe.

The use of Loctite is not necessary - it is a rather tight fit!!

With respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi Roadworthy & everybody else
> 
> Here's the link: OSBB Race Campa Keramik Innenlager
> 
> The picture of the adapter you see when you follow the link, is a little misleading, as the one side of the adapter has the recessed collar / washer on the left side of the adapter placed as if it was assembled.
> So the adapter is actually a long tube with a lip / collar on the right side that presses against the right side of the frame / OSBB, and a washer on the left side that presses against the left side of the frame / OSBB, when the UT cups is tightened (one of the UT cups goes through the hole in the left washer, the threads are in the long tube itself).
> 
> When installing the C-Bear adapter, you do NOT use any delrin rings or bushings of any sort - the adapter is pressed directly into the carbon OSBB!! - that is also a reason for it being so stiff I believe.
> 
> The use of Loctite is not necessary - it is a rather tight fit!!
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mads


Thanks Mads...
Well...that solves the delrin bushing interior shoulder problem since the sleeve presses right into the 46mm ID carbon shell without bushings.

Last question. Much has been written about and you have explained how Specialized version of PF30 is a bit narrower than industry standard. I am presuming the C-bear sleeve is NOT Specialized specific?..it is based upon standard PF30 and it works with Specialized version of PF30...with the pressed in threaded sleeve simply protruding a few mm's on each side of the narrower BB? That is how the pictures look and it makes sense it would protrude on both sides of the BB sheell because the Specialized Sworks BB shell is narrower than industry standard...and the C-bear sleeve would have to be PF30 standard length for Campy cranks to be plug and play with their threaded adapter cups.
Therefore...how does one center the sleeve for proper location...since it isn't line to line with the outer shell as with other std. PF30 installations? Do you stop pressing when the same amount of sleeve protrudes on each side of the narrower Specialized BB shell?


----------



## vaetuning

*C-Bear = OSBB Carbon specific*



roadworthy said:


> Thanks Mads...
> Well...that solves the delrin bushing interior shoulder problem since the sleeve presses right into the 46mm ID carbon shell without bushings.
> 
> Last question. Much has been written about and you have explained how Specialized version of PF30 is a bit narrower than industry standard. I am presuming the C-bear sleeve is NOT Specialized specific?..it is based upon standard PF30 and it works with Specialized version of PF30...with the pressed in threaded sleeve simply protruding a few mm's on each side of the narrower BB? That is how the pictures look and it makes sense it would protrude on both sides of the BB sheell because the Specialized Sworks BB shell is narrower than industry standard...and the C-bear sleeve would have to be PF30 standard length for Campy cranks to be plug and play with their threaded adapter cups.
> Therefore...how does one center the sleeve for proper location...since it isn't line to line with the outer shell as with other std. PF30 installations? Do you stop pressing when the same amount of sleeve protrudes on each side of the narrower Specialized BB shell?


Hi Roadworthy

As you probably gathered by reading the headliner - Yes, the C-Bear adapter is Specialized Carbon OSBB specific and fits like it should in all the right places.

With respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi Roadworthy
> 
> As you probably gathered by reading the headliner - Yes, the C-Bear adapter is Specialized Carbon OSBB specific and fits like it should in all the right places.
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mads


I guess from a pure volume standpoint, it is notable that C-Bear would make an adapter for such a limited model of bike as Specialized narrower version of PF-30. While Sworks bikes aren't perhaps rare, they are limited and not mainstream...and many will not be running Campy cranks nor need a BSA specific BB. Interesting C-Bear would develop/tool their sleeve for this very limited application....economics don't seem to wash..but good for Sworks owners who want to run Campy. Thanks again Mads.


----------



## Sablotny

Yay, happy to see the C-Bear adapter after 7 pages. Going to order one up. Hoping that for 119 Euros its the BB's as well as the Delrin shell... and do I see "Keramik" there?


----------



## CRSturdivant

Just checked this thread after 3+ months of bush-leaguing a temporary bottom bracket solution out of a plastic SRAM adapter with my Record 11 UT setup. They seem to be out of stock at this link:

http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k410/a58428/osbb-race-campa-keramik-innenlager.html?lg=en

Anyone know where else online they are stocked? I want to solve this issue the right way, once and for all!


----------



## vaetuning

*C-Bear OSBB to BSA conversion kit*



CRSturdivant said:


> Just checked this thread after 3+ months of bush-leaguing a temporary bottom bracket solution out of a plastic SRAM adapter with my Record 11 UT setup. They seem to be out of stock at this link:
> 
> http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k410/a58428/osbb-race-campa-keramik-innenlager.html?lg=en
> 
> Anyone know where else online they are stocked? I want to solve this issue the right way, once and for all!


Hi there

Do a google search on C-bear and contact Bart directly - he's a very nice bloke, and he will sell and send directly to you, at a very reasonable price!!

With regards

Mads


----------



## CRSturdivant

Awesome!! Thanks so much for the info!


----------



## vaetuning

CRSturdivant said:


> Awesome!! Thanks so much for the info!


You're welcome!!

Enjoy your wonderful bike!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## Sablotny

VAE - can you tell me: do the aluminum bearings & cones come with the adapter kit, or do you just get the Delrin adapter cups? Also, what is the threading in the Delrin for the BB - English or Italian? 

Thanks


----------



## vaetuning

Sablotny said:


> VAE - can you tell me: do the aluminum bearings & cones come with the adapter kit, or do you just get the Delrin adapter cups? Also, what is the threading in the Delrin for the BB - English or Italian?
> 
> Thanks


Hi Sablotny

The bearings is already placed on your crank arms from Campy.

THERE ARE NO DELRIN ADAPTER CUPS, AS THEY ARE NOT TO BE USED!!

Just order the conversion kit, and order it with Italian threads, and also order the appropriate bearing cups for your UT crank for IT threads - that's all you need.
If you have any questions - then ask Bart - he's a stand-up guy who knows what he's talking about!!

Else may I suggest that you read all my posts in this thread - they should pretty much answer all your questions.

With respect

Mads


----------



## c-bear

*c-bear.com evo 386 bottom bracket for Campagnolo UT*



roadworthy said:


> I guess from a pure volume standpoint, it is notable that C-Bear would make an adapter for such a limited model of bike as Specialized narrower version of PF-30. While Sworks bikes aren't perhaps rare, they are limited and not mainstream...and many will not be running Campy cranks nor need a BSA specific BB. Interesting C-Bear would develop/tool their sleeve for this very limited application....economics don't seem to wash..but good for Sworks owners who want to run Campy. Thanks again Mads.


Besides this , Bart also developed the evo 386 bottom bracket for Campagnolo. example: wilier zero 7 frame + Campagnolo UT, one no longer has to be restricted to only FSA evo 386. Just another option.


----------



## Jesper69

*Til mads*

Hej mads fik du det til at virke fra c-Bear. Ham bart forslår at jeg skal bruge lim for at få min campo krank til at passe til min venge. Det holde ikke.

Så mit spørgsmål til dig er har du kørt lang tid nok med skålene fra c Bear og holder de. 
Altså at de ikke slippe rammen som nu.
Vh
Jesper


----------



## vaetuning

*Specialized adapter kit for UT cranks*

Hi All

Specialized has finally realized that many of their customers want to ride with Campy gear!!

They have made a kit, similar to the one used for installing Shimano cranks on a Carbon OSBB frame.

Saw it at my LBS the other day - a very light solution - but not quite as stiff as the solution from C-Bear.
But still a very good solution!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## bigmac

Hi Mads,

Have you seen the new model Specialized Venge with Campy Super Record EPS - believe it's already available in the US but it's not in the UK yet. It comes with Zipp 404 tubulars and looks well wicked!

I hadn't realized that Specialized accept the use of the C-Bear adapter and provided it's fitted properly - their works - it doesn't effect the frame warranty if anything were to go wrong.

Is this new kit anything like the Wheels Manufacturing solution ? I didn't like that as you appear to retain the OSBB bearings as well as the Campy - i would assume this would make it very heavy!


----------



## tommyturbo

I don't suppose that we will get the best solution for Campy (and Shimano), which would be to produce a threaded frame again for people who simply don't want an OSBB frame, or to use adapters with one. In lieu of that, I guess a factory supplied adapter is the best way to go, and will give people confidence that their frame has full warranty coverage.

Of course, Campy and Shimano could both jump into the OSBB game, but that would probably mean two new ideas as to how to do OSBB!

Wouldn't it be nice to have one standard for oversized BB's, instead of the myriad of alternatives that exist currently?


----------



## Cyclin Dan

vaetuning said:


> Hi All
> 
> Specialized has finally realized that many of their customers want to ride with Campy gear!!
> 
> They have made a kit, similar to the one used for installing Shimano cranks on a Carbon OSBB frame.
> 
> Saw it at my LBS the other day - a very light solution - but not quite as stiff as the solution from C-Bear.
> But still a very good solution!!
> 
> With Respect
> 
> Mads


I can't find mention of this anywhere other than here...do you have a part number or anything? What bike shop was it at...maybe I can call them?

I run an UltraTorque crank right now using Campy 68x42 cups pressed in to the Delrin cups and it works great! About 5,000 miles so far and it's flawless. That said, if there is a better solution I'd be open to it. I'd love to know more about this...I'm on hold with Specialized now but I don't know how much longer I can wait...it's been 10 minutes and nobody has answered yet.


----------



## vaetuning

*C-Bear adapters*

Hi All

Another update in the never ending tale of frames and BB's!!

I have just learned from a very competent mechanic, working in my LBS, that they no longer wish to use the Delrin rings when installing crank sets of any kind - they DO work themselves loose, and they start creaking!!

Specialized Europe have released a new solution for UT cranks though!!

They are switching over to a new black anodized press in sleeve!!

The sleeve is made by - you guessed it; C-bear.

It just goes to show that the solution, which I have tested as the stiffest of them all, really are the best way to put an UT crank on ones carbon OSBB frame.

So now an European Specialized owner keeps his warranty with that sleeve installed, if that's the fact for all other owners - I don't know, just getting happier with my C-bear sleeve 
by the minute!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi All
> 
> Another update in the never ending tale of frames and BB's!!
> 
> I have just learned from a very competent mechanic, working in my LBS, that they no longer wish to use the Delrin rings *when installing crank sets of any kind *- they DO work themselves loose, and they start creaking!!
> 
> Specialized Europe have released a new solution for UT cranks though!!
> 
> They are switching over to a new black anodized press in sleeve!!
> 
> These sleeve is made by - you guessed it; C-bear.
> 
> It just goes to show that the solution, which I have tested as the stiffest of them all, really are the best way to put an UT crank on ones carbon OSBB frame.
> 
> So now an European Specialized owner keeps his warranty with that sleeve installed, if that's the fact for all other owners - I don't know, just getting happier with my C-bear sleeve
> by the minute!!
> 
> With Respect
> 
> Mads


What a saga or should say debacle this whole wild journey has been...with Specialized flagship Sworks framsets no less. I would have expected better development without having to learn this through customer beta testing in the field.
No delrin bushings for installing cranksets of 'any kind'?....quite a revelation Mads. That really puts the whole carbon shell OSBB design aka Spesh version of narrower PF30 in jeapardy...if it is necessary for the consumer to press in an alloy sleeve for a solid foundation for the crank. This basically makes it little different and full circle back to BB30 which is basically unconnected alloy races bonded to the carbon...or threaded BB which is same thing, just threaded...only...and here is the important part.... pressing in an alloy sleeve puts *onus on the consumer and not the manufacturer*...unlike BB30 and threaded BB which are effectively plug and play. It basically takes away any advantage _if there ever was any_ for PF30 in terms of weight, stiffness, longevity of the frame i.e. servicability. It will be quite interesting how PF30 evolves over time...sounds like it maybe heading the way of the 8-track tape player. From design standpoint, it just makes sense that delrin, which is relatively soft compared to alloy cups...would take a compression set due to cyclic loading over time and come a bit loose. As a further data point, I am grateful for my Roubaix SL3 Pro with threaded BB with Campy crankset which has been flawless in 1.5K miles of riding.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

vaetuning said:


> Hi All
> 
> Another update in the never ending tale of frames and BB's!!
> 
> I have just learned from a very competent mechanic, working in my LBS, that they no longer wish to use the Delrin rings when installing crank sets of any kind - they DO work themselves loose, and they start creaking!!
> 
> Specialized Europe have released a new solution for UT cranks though!!
> 
> They are switching over to a new black anodized press in sleeve!!
> 
> These sleeve is made by - you guessed it; C-bear.
> 
> It just goes to show that the solution, which I have tested as the stiffest of them all, really are the best way to put an UT crank on ones carbon OSBB frame.
> 
> So now an European Specialized owner keeps his warranty with that sleeve installed, if that's the fact for all other owners - I don't know, just getting happier with my C-bear sleeve
> by the minute!!
> 
> With Respect
> 
> Mads


I spoke with Specialized and got the part number, then had my bike shop order it for me. At the time Specialized had 9 left and didn't know if they would get more. He said it was something that they manufactured in house for the EPS Venge. 

I'll swap it out and see if I notice any difference.


----------



## vaetuning

*Got ya - he, he!!*

He, he Roadworthy

You actually jumped in with both legs - OSBB IS NOT PF30!!

It is narrower than PF30!!

But nevertheless - it might just be OK - the OSBB i.e. after all - I've heard some rumors, that C-bear can provide almost all kind of adapters for the carbon OSBB frame - making it kind of universal, as to which crank set one wishes to install!!

That is not bad if you ask me?!

And yes - of course you are enjoying your Roubaix - it is a fantastic bike!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> He, he Roadworthy
> 
> You actually jumped in with both legs - *OSBB IS NOT PF30!!
> 
> It is narrower than PF30!!
> *
> But nevertheless - it might just be OK - the OSBB i.e. after all - I've heard some rumors, that C-bear can provide almost all kind of adapters for the carbon OSBB frame - making it kind of universal, as to which crank set one wishes to install!!
> 
> That is not bad if you ask me?!
> 
> And yes - of course you are enjoying your Roubaix - it is a fantastic bike!!
> 
> With Respect
> 
> Mads


I know that Mads. Please re-read my post. I stated narrower version of PF30...which is what the Specialized version of carbon OSBB is...62mm wide..not industry std PF30. _You taught us this Mads with all your great research_. 

To me it is bad Mads. This is my technical opinion. Using a C-bear insert is an excellent solution with carbon OSBB don't get me wrong, it just offers _no _advantage and passes along cost to the consumer versus BB30 where Specialized incurs the cost to insert mold precision races into the carbon mold. So if Delrin is an unacceptable bushing because it takes a compression set over time...then PF30 has lost its advantage. The cynical view of PF30 to begin with Mads and you are a student of engineering is...PF30 came into being because of cost. A singular through bore 46.0mm hole through a carbon shell is much cheaper to produce than BB30 which requires precision machining and insert molding. Further, with C-bear sleeve there is no weight advantage versus BB30...in fact it should be heavier because the sleeve redundantly passes through the carbon shell unlike BB30 where the alloy inserts are bonded to the carbon fiber shell. Yes C-bear for Campy lovers is better than BB30 because it can be threaded. But this comes full circle back to what works best with a Campy crank to begin with....a threaded BB...again without the redundant sleeve material. 
This is my opinion.
Cheers.


----------



## nkrax

Hey all,

I thought I would join the conversation here. I'm in the same boat as the rest of you. I just purchased a "new to me" 2010 Sworks OSBB frame and want to run my Campy 11 on it. This has been a disaster of an experience. I had no idea this would be such a big problem.

C-Bear users...any new updates? As far as I can tell, the C-Bear is the best way to go. So, please, let me know what you think of your C-Bear setup. 

Cheers,
Nate


----------



## vaetuning

*C-Bear Setup*



nkrax said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I thought I would join the conversation here. I'm in the same boat as the rest of you. I just purchased a "new to me" 2010 Sworks OSBB frame and want to run my Campy 11 on it. This has been a disaster of an experience. I had no idea this would be such a big problem.
> 
> C-Bear users...any new updates? As far as I can tell, the C-Bear is the best way to go. So, please, let me know what you think of your C-Bear setup.
> 
> Cheers,
> Nate


Hello Nate

Welcome to the wonderful world of OSBB!!:mad2:

Nevertheless - you're in luck!!

Not only is the sleeve from C-Bear the best solution - it is also sold by Specialized themselves now, so there's actually not much to be said - other than; Go ahead and order a sleeve - It'll probably be the stiffest BB you've ever tried!!

If you should have any doubts - please read the posts in this thread.:thumbsup:

With Respect

Mads


----------



## nkrax

Mads,

Cheers for the reply and vote of confidence. I was starting to get a little worried about my purchase.

Is Specialized branding the sleeves as their own, or is this move more of a customer service to the folks like us who feel they left us with no chance of a Campy drivetrain?

I will post some pics of my completed CAMPY S-WORKS OSBB once she is up and running. Yea! I just had to say that loud and proud.


----------



## vaetuning

*Conc.: sleeve*



nkrax said:


> Mads,
> 
> Cheers for the reply and vote of confidence. I was starting to get a little worried about my purchase.
> 
> Is Specialized branding the sleeves as their own, or is this move more of a customer service to the folks like us who feel they left us with no chance of a Campy drivetrain?
> 
> I will post some pics of my completed CAMPY S-WORKS OSBB once she is up and running. Yea! I just had to say that loud and proud.


Hallo Nate

If you look a couple of posts above - you'll see that Specialized has branded it as their 
own!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## nkrax

I just got off the phone with Wheels Manufacturing. They have developed a new system for our problem. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Again, this is for the OSBB carbon shell frame.

What's needed: 

PF30 BB. Wheels recommended SRAM.

Wheels part # PF3.5-spc
Wheels Mfg Specialized FACT Bottom Bracket Spacer Kit


Wheels part # PF30-camp
Pressfit 30 Adapter for Campagnolo Cranks - BB30/PF30/BBRight/386EVO & Bottom Brackets - Products

Thoughts??


----------



## Cyclin Dan

nkrax said:


> I just got off the phone with Wheels Manufacturing. They have developed a new system for our problem. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Again, this is for the OSBB carbon shell frame.
> 
> What's needed:
> 
> PF30 BB. Wheels recommended SRAM.
> 
> Wheels part # PF3.5-spc
> Wheels Mfg Specialized FACT Bottom Bracket Spacer Kit
> 
> 
> Wheels part # PF30-camp
> Pressfit 30 Adapter for Campagnolo Cranks - BB30/PF30/BBRight/386EVO & Bottom Brackets - Products
> 
> Thoughts??


Why not just get the part straight from Specialized? It's cheaper than those two products together...it's about $40 retail. Part number: S120400005. As of last week they had 9 in the country when I ordered mine. I'd get on it.


----------



## bigmac

Doesn't the Wheels Mfg solution install using both the Spesh and the Campy bearings - seems overkill and over weight to me when compared with C-Bear !


----------



## CRSturdivant

I am a full-time bike mechanic in the Bay Area, CA. I have come up with several solutions to this issue, but I didn't want to post any info on it until I had ridden / tested them for a decent amount of time. 

First of all, the C-Bear solution is by far the best / most stiff solution. I currently have a kit on order from C-Bear; when it arrives, I will be posting an installation video and detailed pictures of the process.

I don't have pictures at the moment, but I simply ordered the SRAM PF30 adapter kit, and started experimenting until I got to this solution:

Essentially, I cut down the male end of the adapter with a dremel tool until the spacing was correct for the width of the Specialized OSBB shell. After modifying the adapter sleeve, I used a few bottom bracket spacers to go between the adapter sleeve and the Campagnolo cups. This solution works, but the plastic SRAM pf30 adapter sleeve will never be as stiff as the aluminum C-Bear sleeve.

I will post some pictures of the SRAM adapter install for those who are interested, hopefully I can do so by the end of the day.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

Cyclin Dan said:


> I spoke with Specialized and got the part number, then had my bike shop order it for me. At the time Specialized had 9 left and didn't know if they would get more. He said it was something that they manufactured in house for the EPS Venge.
> 
> I'll swap it out and see if I notice any difference.


Turns out I wasn't able to get one of these. I've been trying to get in touch with C-Bear for a couple of days...does any body have a better way to reach them other than the [email protected]? I also sent a PM on this forum. I'm in the US, so calling them is a challenge.

I've got some noises going on in the bottom bracket, and I've noticed the cups are turning...can't be good. I need to get this swapped out ASAP.

Thanks!

Dan


----------



## c-bear

Cyclin Dan said:


> Turns out I wasn't able to get one of these. I've been trying to get in touch with C-Bear for a couple of days...does any body have a better way to reach them other than the info(at)c-bear.com? I also sent a PM on this forum. I'm in the US, so calling them is a challenge.
> 
> I've got some noises going on in the bottom bracket, and I've noticed the cups are turning...can't be good. I need to get this swapped out ASAP.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan



Dan:

We did not receive any contact from you except the PM u sent yesterday. Unfortunately, we do not have enough postings to privately reply back. So I sent u a visitor's message the same day yesterday via the forum. I suppose you got the visitor's message as I received your email today (6pm my time) to our info email address and I have also replied directly to u just now. 

Aria
c-bear


----------



## Cyclin Dan

I just wanted to say that C-Bear has been great! I realized that my initial contact to them via email was addressed wrong. They got back to my properly addressed email straight away, and have been very helpful!

They seem to know their stuff, and I'm excited to get the product and get it installed. I'm hoping to receive it late next, but that may be optimistic due to the shipping. I'll post a video of the removal of my "Specialized Approved" setup, and illustrate how it's worn over the ~5,000 miles I've put on the bike, and video the installation of the C-Bear setup.

I'm excited...THANKS C-BEAR!


----------



## Cyclin Dan

Merseypride said:


> I've been following this thread with interest. I've just built up my Venge with full Record groupset and have gone with the Campag pressfit cups in the Spesh delrim cups. I've used loctite 603 and activator 7479. Will see how i go, if i experience any problems i'll go with the C bear adapter
> 
> I appreicate some have had problems running this set up like this, whilst others have it running problem free. I've giving it a shot. I've run Ultra Torque pressfit adapters with loctite on my R5 Bbright frameset without problems so gues i'll just see what happens.


Merseypride...I've been running the same way and have ran in to issues.

Mads was absolutely correct. I'm a big guy...235 lbs or so...and I can put down a lot of power (>1,500 watts)...and this is becoming problematic. It's starting to make noise, and I can see the chainring wandering side to side as I pedal.

I have ordered the C-Bear part, with Italian Cups. I am excited to get it installed. To make sure I wasn't doing any damage I pulled the crank off, and you could definitely see the bearings are wearing poorly due to this thing moving around. On one side the bearing is tight against the spindle, and on the other side there is a 1mm gap!

At any rate, I was just curious if you're experiencing any issues or not?

Mads...thanks for your insight on this. I'm in the process of making sure I have all the tools necessary to do this job, and I'm sure I'll be reaching out to you with some questions as bottom bracket maintenance/installation is a new thing to me =)

Cheers!


----------



## bigmac

Hi Mads, I seem to remember that you may have used some form of Wurth sealant when you originally fitted yours. I believe that C-Bear recommend no loctite is needed when installing on a new frame but with a frame which has already been fitted with other cranks, sealant may be required. 

Was this why you used the Wurth product ? Did you find the C-Bear adaptor was still a very tight fit even though you'd used those special adaptors that you had machined especially ?

I've read that some people are using a Loctite 641 or similar and others more permanent products - this last scenario does scare me somewhat just in case they have to be removed at a later date for any reason!


----------



## vaetuning

*Loctite / C-Bear sleeve*



bigmac said:


> Hi Mads, I seem to remember that you may have used some form of Wurth sealant when you originally fitted yours. I believe that C-Bear recommend no loctite is needed when installing on a new frame but with a frame which has already been fitted with other cranks, sealant may be required.
> 
> Was this why you used the Wurth product ? Did you find the C-Bear adaptor was still a very tight fit even though you'd used those special adaptors that you had machined especially ?
> 
> I've read that some people are using a Loctite 641 or similar and others more permanent products - this last scenario does scare me somewhat just in case they have to be removed at a later date for any reason!


Hi Bicmac

My suggestion would be to install the sleeve without any loctites or similar.

When I installed the sleeve on my own bike - I was not aware of the tight fit of the sleeve, and to be honest, I just did not want to take it apart again.
But as you've probably guessed - the sleeve fit was very tight, even though I have had other solutions fitted to the OSBB.

So just go ahead and install the sleeve:

Use a 14mm threaded rod (should be wider than the Sleeve and the frame OSBB together), 2 x 14mm nuts and some big washers (should be wider than the OSBB diameter), with rubber protectors underneath and a piece of tube, wider than the OSBB, smaller then the washers.
Put the rod through the OSBB, put the sleeve against the right side of the OSBB, place a washer over the end of the rod, that protrudes out of the sleeve, secure it with a nut.
Place a rubber protector and the other washer and nut over the rod on the left side of the OSBB. tighten the nuts until you can line it all up against the frame.
Then slowly start to tighten the nuts and you'll pull the sleeve into the OSBB!!
When the sleeve is almost through the frame - you'll need the piece of hard tube, which is wider than the diameter of the OSBB and smaller than the diameter of the washers. Place the tube on the left side of the OSBB (take precautions not to scratch the frame), install the washer and the nut again and pull the sleeve the rest of the way through the frame, until the sleeve collar is placed tightly towards the right side of the frame.
Install the C-Bear washer with the machined recess towards the sleeve / frame, and tighten the Ital or BSA cup. now install and tighten the last cup.
Congrats - you´re done -now you can install the Crankset.

With respect

Mads


----------



## bigmac

Hi Mads,

Many thanks for the step by step process, i'm sure it will be help to a number of subscribers to this forum


----------



## cccyco

this is a easy quetion.

if you pay attention to specialized crank,you will find that its like UT so much,

so ,you know why there is no problem for shimano sram crank in sworks frame,but just uncompatible for campy


----------



## vaetuning

*Shimano / Sram - carbon OSBB*



cccyco said:


> this is a easy quetion.
> 
> if you pay attention to specialized crank,you will find that its like UT so much,
> 
> so ,you know why there is no problem for shimano sram crank in sworks frame,but just uncompatible for campy


Hi cccyco

Actually - There is nothing but problems concerning both Shimano / Sram & Specialized cranksets when installed in a Carbon OSBB frame!!

The Delrin bushings get worn out, and a lot of play develops!

C-Bear has actually made some new aluminum press in sleves, where the bearings are installed directly into them - So, no more delrin rings :thumbsup:

With Respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

cccyco said:


> this is a easy quetion.
> 
> if you pay attention to specialized crank,you will find that its like UT so much,
> 
> so ,you know why there is no problem for shimano sram crank in sworks frame,but just uncompatible for campy


cccyco,
The simple answer is...the bearings on a UT Campy cranks are pressed on to spindle halves. For all other cranks sold including the Sworks cranks which is a similar design you mention (both have Wurth joint)...bearings are pressed into the BB. The problem with a Campy crank is...the pressed on bearings negate any chance for lateral adjustment for preload. You can't change the spacing as you can with Sworks cranks...or Sram and Shimano with removable left crank arm.

What we have learned from this thread and thanks to Mads for sharing his wisdom is...Specialized Delrin bushings on their carbon OSBB bikes aka Sworks bikes...break down over time...independent of what crank you choose. Kudos to C-bear for their engineering expertise. Basically C-bear has developed a product that Specialized should have. Specialized should have discovered in their development testing that Delrin bushings would take a compression set over time and fail. But unfortunately they learned this through beta testing on their customers. Thankfully there is resolution for those that purchase the otherwise outstanding Sworks bikes.


----------



## Steffo

Has anyone ordered and received their Campy OSBB adapter from Specialized yet? I wonder if it is identical with the C-Bear adapter or if there are differences?

Mainly I want to know if it's BSA or ITA thread on Specialized's adapter. Despite the advantages mentioned with ITA thread, I want to have the BSA version. I think ITA threads on bottom brackets is a design error since precession can occur. I dont know why some manufacturers still insist on using ITA threads

In this case there is a very simple solution to the problem of preventing the sleeve from rotating by making a groove in the flange on the drive side. Then it can be held in place by an ordinary hook spanner wrench.


----------



## Steffo

For those of you interested in the Specialized Campy adapter here it is. It's the same principle as the Shimano adapters that come with the frame and requires you to remove the UT bearings from the crank. It is not a sleeve as described previously. With this solution you still need the crappy delrin cups to be pressed in first. So the C-Bear sleeve is by far the best solution if you want to run Campy cranks. If you run other brands consider their aluminum cups and get rid of the problem once and for all.
If you have trouble finding them online you can order directly from C-Bear. They have been great dealing with and shipping charges are very reasonable.


----------



## roadworthy

Steffo said:


> For those of you interested in the Specialized Campy adapter here it is. It's the same principle as the Shimano adapters that come with the frame and requires you to remove the UT bearings from the crank. It is not a sleeve as described previously. With this solution you still need the crappy delrin cups to be pressed in first. So the C-Bear sleeve is by far the best solution if you want to run Campy cranks. If you run other brands consider their aluminum cups and get rid of the problem once and for all.
> If you have trouble finding them online you can order directly from C-Bear. They have been great dealing with and shipping charges are very reasonable.


I agree with you Steffo. This looks like another accident in waiting. I have to admit being a bit incredulous that Specialized has not abandoned the delrin bushings on their carbon 46mm ID OSBB. Plastic takes a compression set over time and loosens up.
I agree C-bear is the way to go as a threaded alloy sleeve is much more robust. I would suggest installing the C-bear without Loctite or if using Loctite be sure its the green variety which is serviceable.
The only benefit of the Specialized 'kluge' of Campy cranks which were designed for a threaded BB is...they are easily removable. Specialized approach is really an equallly poor alternative to Campy's poor adapter used to sell Campy cranks on BB30/PF30 bikes. C-bear is the way to go for all those Sworks owners that want to run Campy cranks.


----------



## Steffo

I'm assembling a new SL4 with Campy Record right now. Received it as a replacement for an older Tarmac that cracked in the seatstay close to the dropout. If I had known about the OSBB issues I would probably have asked for an older model. 

I have a C-Bear sleeve on order, no way I'm installing delrin cups. Should be here in a couple of days. Will report back when installed. :thumbsup:


----------



## roadworthy

Steffo said:


> I'm assembling a new SL4 with Campy Record right now. Received it as a replacement for an older Tarmac that cracked in the seatstay close to the dropout. If I had known about the OSBB issues I would probably have asked for an older model.
> 
> I have a C-Bear sleeve on order, no way I'm installing delrin cups. Should be here in a couple of days. Will report back when installed. :thumbsup:


What is inexplicable really is that not only does Specialized offer Campy like adapter cups that press into soft plastic bushings...but that Specialized continues with their narrow version of PF-30 on their flagship S-work bikes. I guess Specialized makes enough profit to cover all the warranty issues with their carbon OSBB...remarkable.
Just as the proliferation of BB's now includes a total of three different designs with OSBB being of questionable stiffness/weight benefit aka marketing, my guess is Specialized in the next year or two will move on the next 'greatest' BB design.
Btw, one of the strong reasons I purchased my Roubaix SL3 Pro and not the S-works version is I wanted to run Campy cranks on a threaded BB per design intent.


----------



## 52x11

My dealer has installed the C Bear sleeve in sl4 and use a epoxy component for permanent installation of the sleeve, so I can use my campa SR. Question if i change to a eps system and the sleeve is permanent installed will be that possible?

Henk


----------



## ayoye

I installed the C-Bear sleeve yesterday without any problems on a Tarmac S-Works SL3, the solution is to freeze for a good 2 hours. In this way, it is easy to install. No more noise


----------



## 52x11

My dealer has installed the C Bear sleeve in sl4 and use a epoxy component for permanent installation of the sleeve, so I can use my campa SR. Question if i change to a eps system and the sleeve is permanent installed will be that possible?

Henk


----------



## ayoye

52x11 said:


> My dealer has installed the C Bear sleeve in sl4 and use a epoxy component for permanent installation of the sleeve, so I can use my campa SR. Question if i change to a eps system and the sleeve is permanent installed will be that possible?
> 
> Henk


No problem, It's the same crankset


----------



## 52x11

ayoye said:


> No problem, It's the same crankset


oke, what i mean is cable handling to connecting the cable's then you need acces to the osbb area, when the sleeve is installed will maybe not possible? Or can you install the eps cable's when the sleeve is (permanent) position?


----------



## 52x11

ayoye said:


> I installed the C-Bear sleeve yesterday without any problems on a Tarmac S-Works SL3, the solution is to freeze for a good 2 hours. In this way, it is easy to install. No more noise


oke, what i mean is cable handling to connecting the cable's then you need acces to the osbb area, when the sleeve is installed will maybe not possible? Or can you install the eps cable's when the sleeve is (permanent) position?


----------



## vaetuning

*EPS question - Sleeve*



52x11 said:


> oke, what i mean is cable handling to connecting the cable's then you need acces to the osbb area, when the sleeve is installed will maybe not possible? Or can you install the eps cable's when the sleeve is (permanent) position?


Hello 52x11

There should be no problems with installing EPS, even though you lbs have installed the C-Bear sleeve with epoxy - which is NOT necessary by the way!!

The cables for the EPS is run over the OSBB - not inside it!!

Your lbs is going to remove the bottom cable guide in order to access the inside of your frame and run the cables over the OSBB!!

With respect

Mads


----------



## ayoye

52x11 said:


> oke, what i mean is cable handling to connecting the cable's then you need acces to the osbb area, when the sleeve is installed will maybe not possible? Or can you install the eps cable's when the sleeve is (permanent) position?


Look here, http://vimeo.com/25739509 It's the same method but with electric cable


----------



## 52x11

vaetuning said:


> Hello 52x11
> 
> There should be no problems with installing EPS, even though you lbs have installed the C-Bear sleeve with epoxy - which is NOT necessary by the way!!
> 
> The cables for the EPS is run over the OSBB - not inside it!!
> 
> Your lbs is going to remove the bottom cable guide in order to access the inside of your frame and run the cables over the OSBB!!
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mads


many thanks for your explanation!

Henk


----------



## 52x11

ayoye said:


> Look here, http://vimeo.com/25739509 It's the same method but with electric cable


many thanks for your tip!


----------



## AndyL-HK

Anyone tried the Specialized BB Adapter to run the Campy crank into the Tarmac Sl-4 OSBB? I am just building my bike now and bike shop has stopped until we can get a hold of this adapter.....Putting Campag EPS record on. One more thing....can you fit the chain rings from Campy cranks on to any other crank set that is properly compatible?

Thanks


----------



## vaetuning

*Specialized Campy Adapter*



AndyL-HK said:


> Anyone tried the Specialized BB Adapter to run the Campy crank into the Tarmac Sl-4 OSBB? I am just building my bike now and bike shop has stopped until we can get a hold of this adapter.....Putting Campag EPS record on. One more thing....can you fit the chain rings from Campy cranks on to any other crank set that is properly compatible?
> 
> Thanks


Hi Andy

Let me put it like this: If they involve using the delrin rings - DO NOT BOTHER!! It will give you nothing but problems in the future!!
Adding to that - it will also lessen the feel of stiffness in the BB area!!

Use the C-Bear sleeve - we are so many now, who have tried and failed with other solutions - whereas we have all succeeded when using the sleeve!!

That should say it all!!

Enjoy your wonderful bike - it will give you many, many happy hours!!

With respect
Mads


----------



## AndyL-HK

Hey Mads thanks will look into it....

on the other note...can I just put a specialized (or other brand that actually fits) crankset in and change over the Chain rings to Campy?.....not sure this is possible?

Regards

A


----------



## vaetuning

*Delrin = No,no!!*



AndyL-HK said:


> Hey Mads thanks will look into it....
> 
> on the other note...can I just put a specialized (or other brand that actually fits) crankset in and change over the Chain rings to Campy?.....not sure this is possible?
> 
> Regards
> 
> A


Hi Andy

OK, Let me put it like this: If the delrin rings are still used - buy the C-Bear equivalent to match your cranks!!

The design with the delrin rings DOES NOT WORK!!!

The Protour riders are not using them either - guess what they are running....it starts with a C

With respect

Mads


----------



## roadworthy

vaetuning said:


> Hi Andy
> 
> OK, Let me put it like this: If the delrin rings are still used - buy the C-Bear equivalent to match your cranks!!
> 
> The design with the delrin rings DOES NOT WORK!!!
> 
> The Protour riders are not using them either - guess what they are running....it starts with a C
> 
> With respect
> 
> Mads


Mads,
Is there a C-bear sleeve available that will fit the S-works cranks? Reason I ask is the C-bear sleeve for Campy is for external threaded cups and the BB30 spacing of the Spesh cranks requires bearing location within the BB shell width due to shorter crank spindle.
Please let me know...thanks.


----------



## bigmac

Hi Roadworthy,

I believe that C-Bear now produce an alternative to the Spesh Delrin inserts although it may only be available with ceramic bearings - drop Bart an email, they are very helpful!

Regards

Bigmac


----------



## vaetuning

*Press in cups for Spesh cranks*



roadworthy said:


> Mads,
> Is there a C-bear sleeve available that will fit the S-works cranks? Reason I ask is the C-bear sleeve for Campy is for external threaded cups and the BB30 spacing of the Spesh cranks requires bearing location within the BB shell width due to shorter crank spindle.
> Please let me know...thanks.


Hi Roadworthy

Yup, they have developed a set of press in cups, complete with ceramic bearings and all - actually they turn the dreaded OSBB into a BB30 setup - nice!!

Going to use them on my newly bought Roubaix SL4 - uhmmm!!

Check the link: OSBB Specialized Fact Race Bottom Bracket|C-BEAR.COM Ceramische Lagers voor Bottom Brackets en Wielen

With respect

Mads


----------



## AndyL-HK

HI Mads

THanks...C-bear came through and sleeve BB Adapter on its way via Fedex.....now need to solve the VERY tight Rear dropout clearance when the EPS 11 speed block is on...have existing Reynolds 46 2011 wheelset but will definitely get chain rub under load so now looking for a solution....any ideas out there?

regards

a


----------



## vaetuning

*Chain rub - 11 speed?!*



AndyL-HK said:


> HI Mads
> 
> THanks...C-bear came through and sleeve BB Adapter on its way via Fedex.....now need to solve the VERY tight Rear dropout clearance when the EPS 11 speed block is on...have existing Reynolds 46 2011 wheelset but will definitely get chain rub under load so now looking for a solution....any ideas out there?
> 
> regards
> 
> a


Hi Andy

I'm not sure I know what you mean - chain rub where??

Take pictures - thanks in advance!!

With respect

Mads


----------



## bigmac

Hi Andy,
I'm using an 11 spd Super Record set up on a 2012 Venge using the C-Bear adapter and Reynolds SDV66C's - The Campy cassette lockring initially showed some minor signs of rub on the drop out so i swapped it out for a Token as it's slightly thinner and they are as cheap as chips and it's now perfect. Obviously this has nothing to do with the C-Bear adapter - that's working fantastically well! 
With the the Reynolds/DT Swiss hub, the cassette is definitely closer to the drop out than say a Campy hubed wheel so if you swap wheels around, the gear mech does need adjusting each time which is a bit of a pain!

Regards

Bigmac


----------



## vaetuning

*Ahaaa!!*



bigmac said:


> Hi Andy,
> I'm using an 11 spd Super Record set up on a 2012 Venge using the C-Bear adapter and Reynolds SDV66C's - The Campy cassette lockring initially showed some minor signs of rub on the drop out so i swapped it out for a Token as it's slightly thinner and they are as cheap as chips and it's now perfect. Obviously this has nothing to do with the C-Bear adapter - that's working fantastically well!
> With the the Reynolds/DT Swiss hub, the cassette is definitely closer to the drop out than say a Campy hubed wheel so if you swap wheels around, the gear mech does need adjusting each time which is a bit of a pain!
> 
> Regards
> 
> Bigmac


Hi Bigmac

Thanks for clarifying - now I understand!!

I run a set of Special Edition Lightweight Standard Clinchers, and they are using DT - swiss freehubs as well, and you're right tolerances are very tight!!
I was not aware of the problem as I have been using the cassette lockring that came with my Lightweights, and I have not encountered that problem up until now!

Again - Thanks!!

With respect

Mads


----------



## AndyL-HK

THanks Big Mac - yes this is the problem...but I only received the C-bear BB this morning and shop is installing this afternoon so he can accurately check chain alignment....so fingers crossed! Will visit bike shop tomorrow and take some photos and post results but did let him know about your post.

Thanks.... cant wait to get out on it!

AJL


----------



## dukeofhazard

*tarmac pro osbb and ultra torque*

Sorry folks,

but this post is very confusing. I have now purchased a tarmac pro 2013 and like to use campa record: what is the best way to go.

As I understood the tarmac pro has alloy osbb with standard width 68mm. And, SP has its own adapter as of now available.

My dealer insists on using the campagnolog 42mm Ultra-Torque™ OS-Fit™ Integrated Cups.

People here claim to use c-bear adaper (only for carbon osbb?).

Is there a clear message which way to go?

Thanks for your help.

Christian


----------



## bigmac

Christian, please don't waste your money trying out the Campagnolo integrated cups, they don't work!

I am using the C-Bear adapter on a 2012 Venge and it works and has worked perfectly - there are a number of opinions on this forum but as yet i haven't come across anyone who's fitted the C-Bear adapter and been disappointed, in fact, quite the opposite - i've been so impressed i've just ordered their OSBB Fact adapters for another bike which has Spesh cranks fitted.

As regards your particular requirement, I only have frames with S-Works carbon brackets so i'm not qualified to answer you but why don't you contact Aria or Bart at C-Bear, they are really helpful people and will advise you exactly what you need.([email protected])

Regards

Bigmac


----------



## wetpaint

dukeofhazards bottom bracket is different than the carbon PF30 versions. For the BB30 bottom bracket, it's best to just use a wheels manufacturing adapter, it presses into the bearings and works great
Wheels Manufacturing BB30-CAMP


----------



## bigmac

Hi Wetpaint, 

Doesn't the Wheels Manufacturing solution retain both the Spesh and Campy bearings ? Whilst it looks reasonably neat, it must be heavy with all those bearings ?

Regards

Bigmac


----------



## wetpaint

It's pretty light, just 2 BB30 bearings in the BB and the Delrin adapters (48g). I'm using the same adapters in my SL2 with a Sram crank.


----------



## dukeofhazard

Oh my god, I killed the thread with my post: I apologize sincerely.

Ok, I try to convince my dealer (which happens to be an old friend, and that makes it difficult) to go the c-bear route.

Cheers...


----------



## AndyL-HK

HI Guys....this is the latest of my saga of trying to fit Campy Record EPS to my 2013 S-works Tarmac SL-4 Frame: 


Quoted from the builder
*
[I]We are back on to your bike at the moment and to be honest I think there too many compromises with trying to *make the frame work with Campagnolo. The frame designers have not given any consideration to being Campagnolo compatibility. The best you could hope to get is maybe 95% of the performance which is not acceptable for a high quality bike. Also with the BB adaptor being .5mm bigger in diameter instead of the normal .1mm interference fit is going too put much more strain on the frame.

Compromises.

EPS wiring not entirely compatible. _(EPS Battery/controller cant go under the Bottle cage as the holes provided arn't big enough for the 3 wires of EPS)_
Bottom bracket. - problem solved
Campagnolo cassette spacing.- 
EPS Battery mounting. -_ had to mount the battery under the BB but only one hole provided there to mount to so not very secure_

I know you want to get on your bike but I am hesitant in building a bike that is relying on so many bandaid fixes.[/I]

SO does the C-bear sleeve adapter void any warranty? anyone else out there successfully built the same? If so would be grateful to hear how you managed the EPS


----------



## bigmac

Purely on the question of warranty with the C-Bear adapter - I have an email from Spesh Customer Service UK stating that providing the adapter is fitted by a qualified LBS, the warranty is OK.

My adapter was fitted as per C-Bears instructions, with no Loctite or any other form of adhesive therefore should it need to be removed for any reason, it could be.

Regards

Bigmac


----------



## AndyL-HK

I agree and just had this email from C-Bear:

_Andrew:

I think there is enough testimonials on forum.bikereview to provide u the confidence that our item works.

The item is a tight fit but has been tested and has been ordered by Specialized Europe , so we are confident that it is perfectly fine to use. 

In the end, it will be your decision. 

Sure hope your case will be clarified soon, so u can get on the bike._

I think this issue is solved....just need to sort out the rear dropout space!...oh and battery mount


----------



## Schweg

AndyL-HK said:


> I agree and just had this email from C-Bear:
> 
> _Andrew:
> 
> I think this issue is solved....just need to sort out the rear dropout space!...oh and battery mount_


_


Andy,

I was able to install EPS on my Tarmac SL4 a few weeks ago. That first thing I can tell you is, don't be in a hurry it took 3 hours, guiding cords through the frame and BB. It required getting a set of drill bits (don't freak out) and using on of a smaller diameter drill bit in the hole by the dropout to remove the excess frame material inside the hole. I did not use a drill, I just twisted the drill bit by hand. 

On the frame hole, I found my set of jewelers files (purcahsed at Harbor Freight) to lengthen the hole enough to get the connectors through. I ran the shifter cords on the left hand side and had to repeat the process that I did in the back with the drill bit, cleaning out the frame material from inside the frame. I took my time and everything turned out fine. I did have a little sticking when I tried to pull the shifter connector through the left frame hole. The hole in the frame is at an angle and it is hard to guide the connector and I didn't want the connector to become unplugged. So before finally inserting the connector in the frame, I tied a bit of dental floss (strong but thin) around the back side of the connector so I could apply equal force if I ever have to pull it through the hole. I test that and it worked fine.

It looks very nice all around. The only shock was the price of the rubber gromets. The Shimano set of 4 is around $4.95 wholesale and the Campy ones are $5.00. I figured that having a couple of extra sets was a good idea at that price. When I got my parts. it turned out the the Campy were $5.00 per grommet. So I would recommend that people just buy the Shimano ones at 1/4 the price.

Tom_


----------



## ukbloke

Schweg said:


> When I got my parts. it turned out the the Campy were $5.00 per grommet.


Ouch! That pricing is insane.


----------



## Arnoud

Do you have pictures of the EPS equiped SL4?!


----------



## Schweg

I'll try to get something up later today.


----------



## Schweg

When widening the hole in the downtube, I filed a small amount at a time until I could fit the last connector through the hole. On the Pinarello test frames that Campy uses for Demo's, the holes are longer, like putting 2 "D" 's back to back.


----------



## roadworthy

Schweg said:


> Andy,
> 
> I was able to install EPS on my Tarmac SL4 a few weeks ago. That first thing I can tell you is, don't be in a hurry it took 3 hours, guiding cords through the frame and BB. It required getting a set of drill bits (don't freak out) and using on of a smaller diameter drill bit in the hole by the dropout to remove the excess frame material inside the hole. I did not use a drill, I just twisted the drill bit by hand.
> 
> On the frame hole, I found my set of jewelers files (purcahsed at Harbor Freight) to lengthen the hole enough to get the connectors through. I ran the shifter cords on the left hand side and had to repeat the process that I did in the back with the drill bit, cleaning out the frame material from inside the frame. I took my time and everything turned out fine. I did have a little sticking when I tried to pull the shifter connector through the left frame hole. The hole in the frame is at an angle and it is hard to guide the connector and I didn't want the connector to become unplugged. So before finally inserting the connector in the frame, I tied a bit of dental floss (strong but thin) around the back side of the connector so I could apply equal force if I ever have to pull it through the hole. I test that and it worked fine.
> 
> It looks very nice all around. The only shock was the price of the rubber gromets. The Shimano set of 4 is around $4.95 wholesale and the Campy ones are $5.00. I figured that having a couple of extra sets was a good idea at that price. When I got my parts. it turned out the the Campy were $5.00 per grommet. So I would recommend that people just buy the Shimano ones at 1/4 the price.
> 
> Tom


Nice review Tom...thanks.
Couple fo questions please.
Where on the frame did you have to drill and use your jewelers files...can you provide just a bit more description where you had to message the frame a bit?

Also...are the Shimano and Campy grommets the same geometry? How many grommets are required total for the installation...and where are the grommets used on the frame?...for example...wiring enters at the left front of the down tube...wiring penetrates the top of the down tube to attach to the front derailleur...and exists the rear of the chain stay as it attaches to the rear dearilleur.
Any further pics and or explanation would be appreciated.

Many thanks.


----------



## Schweg

I only used the files around the hole in the downtube. I used the drill bits first. I did this over 2 days, and found my files the 2nd day when I worked on the downtube hole. If I had the files both days, I would have used them exclusively. But the drill bits were good enough for cleaning out the inside of the holes. The Campy grommets are elongated a bit, you can use an Xacto blade to fit them as they are rubber not plastic.I didn't buy the Shimano ones.

I only used the rubber grommits for the derailleurs. I didn't use anything for the downtube, basically because I haven't found anything that provides a seal unless I may end up using black silicone sealant. At the top left hole I use those ribbed plastic things they use to hold door panels on in cars. I just drilled an angled hole in the middle and cut a slice in it to fit in the wire, pushed it into the opening.

I should mention that the Campy Record EPS upgrade kit may come with the grommets, I'm not sure. I got mine at a real good deal (around 1300.00) so I was not complaining if some of the parts were missing. 

I already had a Super Record Compact 11 group in the bike. My crank was the FC9 model so I had to replace both of the chainrings. If I would have had the newer FC12 crankset, I would have only had to change the outer 50t chainring. The ramps on the ring are different on the EPS 50t chainring and it is marker EPS. Also on the FC9 you have to change the 34t also because the FC9 34t chainring is not threaded like the FC12 34t chaninrings. 

This compatibility only affects the compact cranks. For the regular cranks, You can run the FC9 or the FC12 with no changes.


----------



## Schweg

You basically have to clean out the stuff lurking in the holes (at least the hole in the dropout and the one where you route the shifter cord) from the manufacturing process. I decided you run the cord on the left side. When I first checked the diameter of those holes, I did so be using the "dummy" connector connected to the magnet. So I just use the drill bit as a one way file (it only cuts on the down-stroke), and checked to see if the connector fit. I repeated that until the connector moved through the hole with a bit of additional clearance. Through the entire process, I took my time.

I only used the files around the hole in the downtube. I used the drill bits first. I did this over 2 days, and found my files the 2nd day when I worked on the downtube hole. If I had the files both days, I would have used them exclusively. But the drill bits were good enough for cleaning out the inside of the holes. The Campy grommets are elongated a bit, you can use an Xacto blade to fit them as they are rubber not plastic.I didn't buy the Shimano ones.

I only used the rubber grommits for the derailleurs. I didn't use anything for the downtube, basically because I haven't found anything that provides a seal unless I may end up using black silicone sealant. At the top left hole I use those ribbed plastic things they use to hold door panels on in cars. I just drilled an angled hole in the middle and cut a slice in it to fit in the wire, pushed it into the opening.

I should mention that the Campy Record EPS upgrade kit may come with the grommets, I'm not sure. I got mine at a real good deal (around 1300.00) so I was not complaining if some of the parts were missing. 

I already had a Super Record Compact 11 group in the bike. My crank was the FC9 model so I had to replace both of the chainrings. If I would have had the newer FC12 crankset, I would have only had to change the outer 50t chainring. The ramps on the ring are different on the EPS 50t chainring and it is marker EPS. Also on the FC9 you have to change the 34t also because the FC9 34t chainring is not threaded like the FC12 34t chaninrings. 

This compatibility only affects the compact cranks. For the regular cranks, You can run the FC9 or the FC12 with no changes.


----------



## roadworthy

Schweg said:


> I only used the files around the hole in the downtube. I used the drill bits first. I did this over 2 days, and found my files the 2nd day when I worked on the downtube hole. If I had the files both days, I would have used them exclusively. But the drill bits were good enough for cleaning out the inside of the holes. The Campy grommets are elongated a bit, you can use an Xacto blade to fit them as they are rubber not plastic.I didn't buy the Shimano ones.
> 
> I only used the rubber grommits for the derailleurs. I didn't use anything for the downtube, basically because I haven't found anything that provides a seal unless I may end up using black silicone sealant. At the top left hole I use those ribbed plastic things they use to hold door panels on in cars. I just drilled an angled hole in the middle and cut a slice in it to fit in the wire, pushed it into the opening.
> 
> I should mention that the Campy Record EPS upgrade kit may come with the grommets, I'm not sure. I got mine at a real good deal (around 1300.00) so I was not complaining if some of the parts were missing.
> 
> I already had a Super Record Compact 11 group in the bike. My crank was the FC9 model so I had to replace both of the chainrings. If I would have had the newer FC12 crankset, I would have only had to change the outer 50t chainring. The ramps on the ring are different on the EPS 50t chainring and it is marker EPS. Also on the FC9 you have to change the 34t also because the FC9 34t chainring is not threaded like the FC12 34t chaninrings.
> 
> This compatibility only affects the compact cranks. For the regular cranks, You can run the FC9 or the FC12 with no changes.


Thanks Tom. Maybe at some point, we can put some pictures to your words.
Congrats for building what has to be one of the nicest road bikes in the world.
Ride safe.


----------



## Schweg

Who said anything about riding the thing..... 

This was easier than the last one I took on. I would install EPS all day compared to the 5 months I spent on this one.

Finished bike: http://www.little500.com/hetchins/sized/index.html

Entire process: http://www.little500.com/hetchins/


----------



## AndyL-HK

HI Tom Ok great! Further to Mads questions.....

Which BB adapter did you use?
and was there any issue on the clearance on the dropout with the 11 speed? If not which wheel set/hub are you running?
Would love to see some pics!

regards

Andy


----------



## bigmac

Andy,
I'm running Super Record 11 speed,sadly non EPS,on a 2012 Venge using the C-Bear adapter and Reynolds SV66C wheels. The chainline is perfect with the C-Bear and i have several 1000's of miles on it with absolutely no issues whatsoever. I do have an email from Spesh UK approving the use of the C-Bear adapter providing it was fitted by a bike store.
I had an issue with the DT Swiss rear hub in the Reynolds in that the spacing is quite different to say a stock Campy hubbed wheel so you can't swap them easilly without some adjustment to the throw of the rear mech. The Campy lockring is also quite thick and had a tendency to slightly rub on the dropout but switching to a Token ring resolved this - this had nothing to do with chainline, just the fact that DT's Campy compatible freehub isn't fully compatible!


----------



## vaetuning

*Dropout Clearance*



AndyL-HK said:


> HI Tom Ok great! Further to Mads questions.....
> 
> Which BB adapter did you use?
> and was there any issue on the clearance on the dropout with the 11 speed? If not which wheel set/hub are you running?
> Would love to see some pics!
> 
> regards
> 
> Andy


Hi Andy

I used a C-Bear Ital adapter - went right in, and stayed put - did not rotate or make any funny noises!!

For Wheels, I use a set of Lightweight Standard Clincher Special Edition, and a set of Fulcrum Racing one, and 2 sets of generic carbon clinchers.

All of the above, I use with NO clearance problems!!

If you run into clearance problems however - it is commonly used to install small shims / spacers between the outer part of the axle / hub (the part that is removed to take of the freehub) and the freehub itself - effectively moving out the part of the hub that is touching the inside of the frames dropouts.

But do not shim it out more than a max of 1mm!!

This should enable you to achieve the desired clearance!!

Zipp actually installs shims between the freehub and the hub itself, moving out the freehub / cassette, to achieve more clearance between the cassette and the spokes, when used with Campy 11sp!!

I'm a little short of pictures right now, as I have sold of my SL3 S-Works - I'm waiting for my SL4 S-Works frame and my new Super Record - Yiippeee!!
Kept my Lightweights though!! I am going to use an Ital adapter on my new frame as well!!

I have a SL3 Pro frame with a set of generic carbon clinchers and 11 speed Chorus though?? The pictures of this setup should be ok compared to the setup you run?! Would that suffice??

With respect

Mads


----------



## AndyL-HK

Hey Tom

Just one more thing...where did you install the battery?

thanks

AndyL


----------



## reydin

So after reading this thread and numerous calls between various parties at Specialized and my bike shop ( big props to KC and Harry) I was able to end up with a EPS S Works SL4 from Specialized. From what I gathered from the mechanics at The Spokesman (You guys rock!) Specialized used the same process that Schweg used for fitting the EPS system to the S-Works SL4 and have now issued guidelines for installing the Specialized bb adapter for the Campy Ultra Torque crank.
View attachment 272719
View attachment 272720
View attachment 272721
View attachment 272722
View attachment 272723


----------



## Cyclin Dan

reydin said:


> So after reading this thread and numerous calls between various parties at Specialized and my bike shop ( big props to KC and Harry) I was able to end up with a EPS S Works SL4 from Specialized. From what I gathered from the mechanics at The Spokesman (You guys rock!) Specialized used the same process that Schweg used for fitting the EPS system to the S-Works SL4 and have now issued guidelines for installing the Specialized bb adapter for the Campy Ultra Torque crank.
> View attachment 272719
> View attachment 272720
> View attachment 272721
> View attachment 272722
> View attachment 272723


Sweet rig! I've got mechanical SR11 on my S-Works SL3 Tarmac, using the C-Bear. Can you post more details on what was used in the BB please? Is it Campy PF cups pressed in to the Specialized delrin cups/rings?


----------



## reydin

Thanks! I believe you're correct about the Campy pf cups being pressed into the Specialized delrin adapter but I'll ask the mechanic that installed the crank when he gets back after the holidays.


----------



## kiekeboeboe

the delrin adapter solution is not a good one.
The only acceptable way to install a Campagnolo Ultra or Power Torque crank is with a C-Bear adapter.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

kiekeboeboe said:


> the delrin adapter solution is not a good one.
> The only acceptable way to install a Campagnolo Ultra or Power Torque crank is with a C-Bear adapter.


Agreed. I tried that approach initially (at the recommendation of Specialized) and it lead to flexing, creaking, etc...

Went to C-Bear and it's been rock solid.


----------



## roadworthy

dukeofhazard said:


> Sorry folks,
> 
> but this post is very confusing. I have now purchased a tarmac pro 2013 and like to use campa record: what is the best way to go.
> 
> As I understood the tarmac pro has alloy osbb with standard width 68mm. And, SP has its own adapter as of now available.
> 
> My dealer insists on using the campagnolog 42mm Ultra-Torque™ OS-Fit™ Integrated Cups.
> 
> People here claim to use c-bear adaper (only for carbon osbb?).
> 
> Is there a clear message which way to go?
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Christian


You need a new bike shop. Sadly, bike shops have a difficult time sorting out the ever changing complexity of these bikes. Yes, much of the blame lies with companies like Specialized who are constantly pushing the tech envelope...sometimes not for the better. Your bike shop's desire to use Campy's 42mm press in cups into your BB30 shell is 'worse case'. Campy's push in adapters work better in your BB30 than they do on narrow PF30 aka Spesh Sworks bikes...but not much better.

A better solution is use new Specialized spacers which remove Campy bearings from Campy crank halfshafts and use BB30 bearings and space down and out to Campy's 25mm OD spindle diameter.

Third option is consider a C-bear sleeve for BB30. Keep in mind C-bear sleeves are most widely used with 61mm wide carbon OSBB Specialized Sworks bikes...and not on Pro frames which have a more generic 42mm alloy cup inserted BB30. If you contact Ard at C-bear he will direct you to the proper C-bear sleeve that will work with BB30. Sram also makes a push in threaded alloy sleeve that works fine with BB30 which is much cheaper than the C-bear sleeve...essentially the same thing at a much lower cost.


----------



## bikerjulio

roadworthy said:


> You need a new bike shop. Sadly, bike shops have a difficult time sorting out the ever changing complexity of these bikes. Yes, much of the blame lies with companies like Specialized who are constantly pushing the tech envelope...sometimes not for the better. Your bike shop's desire to use Campy's 42mm press in cups into your BB30 shell is 'worse case'. Campy's push in adapters work better in your BB30 than they do on narrow PF30 aka Spesh Sworks bikes...but not much better.
> 
> A better solution is use new Specialized spacers which remove Campy bearings from Campy crank halfshafts and use BB30 bearings and space down and out to Campy's 25mm OD spindle diameter.
> 
> Third option is consider a C-bear sleeve for BB30. Keep in mind C-bear sleeves are most widely used with 61mm wide carbon OSBB Specialized Sworks bikes...and not on Pro frames which have a more generic 42mm alloy cup inserted BB30. If you contact Ard at C-bear he will direct you to the proper C-bear sleeve that will work with BB30. Sram also makes a push in threaded alloy sleeve that works fine with BB30 which is much cheaper than the C-bear sleeve...essentially the same thing at a much lower cost.


I would not be as dismissive of the Campy cups as RW. I have used them successfully in my Cannondale for over 2 years with no problems at all. They were pressed in dry and haven't budged, despite my 200# weight stomping on 180mm cranks.

They are cheap, and if they don't work, easy to remove and replace with something else. Give them a try IMO.


----------



## roadworthy

bikerjulio said:


> I would not be as dismissive of the Campy cups as RW. I have used them successfully in my Cannondale for over 2 years with no problems at all. They were pressed in dry and haven't budged, despite my 200# weight stomping on 180mm cranks.
> 
> They are cheap, and if they don't work, easy to remove and replace with something else. Give them a try IMO.


Hi bikerjulio,
Fair enough. We each come here with biases based upon background. Pretty sure you have a technical one based upon all the good input you provide to this forum and that is mine as well. I for example would never design an assembly with bearing load path outside a press fit. To me this is a fundamental design error. In the case of both BB30/PF30, at least bearing load path is co-linear aka vertically in alignment with bearing press bores. Not so with Campy adaptive cups. To me this is a sad kluge in an effort for Campy to stay viable on a BB which was never design intent. This is my technical opinion. Specialized taking the initiative to redesign Campy's interface to both their BB's I believe is much more robust. Campy bearings are removed and BB30 bearings are retained and pressed properly and well supported within the BB shell. This is the same method used to adapt Shimano cranks to Specialized BB30/PF30 which has been successful with very few reports of issues. An alloy sleeve pressed into either BB30 or PF30 of course is most robust because this regresses either BB back to a threaded BB where there is attachment between both sides of the BB...an interface Campy cranks were designed for.

So, yes, it does come down somewhat to philosophy...and good to have options for the consumer to choose.
Best Regards.


----------



## ssio

*Specialized OSBB Campy adapter*

I'd have a question to you using the Specialized OSBB Campy adapter (part# S120400005) with Ultra-Torque crankset. When the UT bearings are removed from the crank axles, does anything beyond them need to be removed? As there's still the ring next to the crankarm, where the UT bearing's dust-cover sits on. When I insert the adapter cup into the crank axle by hand, it spins almost with no resistance on top of it. So I was wondering if it need to go further into the crank axle in order to sit tight.


----------



## roadworthy

Applying some basic technical sense, your question is easily answered.

First remove the bearings with the Park bearing puller or equivalent from your Campy UT crank.

Do you have the Specialized spacers in hand?

With the rings you reference in place on both crank spindle half shafts, assemble the crank to the bike with Spesh spacers and 'without' wave washer. Now lightly tighten the center crank allen bolt to a couple of ft-lbs...spec is about 30 ft-lbs...then rotate the crank and feel for axial play. If the crank is tight and not free to rotate, you know the rings you speak of need to be removed. There should be a few thou of axial clearance with the wave washer not installed. It is the job of the wave washer to retain the crank axially in place and take up this gap with light axial compression.

See below pic...presuming the arrow points to the ring/shoulder you speak of...one on each side.


----------



## reydin

As I don't have any experience with the Tarmac SL4 Pro, I can't comment on that application. I do now have about 700 miles of mixed riding on my SL4 S-Works fitted with the Campy Ultra Torque/ Specialized delrin adapter to the Specialized spec and this system has been trouble free.


----------



## ssio

roadworthy said:


> With the rings you reference in place on both crank spindle half shafts, assemble the crank to the bike with Spesh spacers and 'without' wave washer. Now lightly tighten the center crank allen bolt to a couple of ft-lbs...spec is about 30 ft-lbs...then rotate the crank and feel for axial play. If the crank is tight and not free to rotate, you know the rings you speak of need to be removed. There should be a few thou of axial clearance with the wave washer not installed. It is the job of the wave washer to retain the crank axially in place and take up this gap with light axial compression.


Thanks for your answer roadworthy. Well, currently the frame is sitting with no bearings pressed into the bottom bracket shell, as I'm waiting for a new pair of them to be shipped. So at the moment I can't do the test. I do have the Specialized spacers and wavy washer that came with the adapter. I've had Ultra-Torque previously on bikes with threaded bottom bracket, so I'm familiar with the concept of the wavy washer. This is the first time I need to use adapter for installing on a press-fit bb.

The UT bearings are already removed from the crank spindles. The image you posted points right to the part, which I'm unsure whether should be removed or not. If that ring was to be removed, I wonder what tool would fit in there. It seems similar job like removing a crown race from a fork steerer tube, I suppose it's done with some sharp object like screwdrivers tip. But maybe the ring is not supposed to be removed at all, for the OSBB adapter to function. I'd just not to even attempt removing it, unless it's necessary and that's what I'm hoping to get confirmed here.


----------



## roadworthy

You likely won't get good feedback on your question because the Spesh spacers are relatively new...but your answer is easy to deduce even without installing the bearings.

- Slide Spesh spacers onto respective Campy crank UT halfshafts.

- With the cranks off the bike, assemble the hirth joint and attach two sides of crank with center bolt. Only snug the bolt...hand tighten will do. You will see the saw tooth hirth joint line to line.

- Slide the Specialized spacers to where they below on the assembled crank spindle...push them apart as outboard as possible...where they will be on the bike.

- Take a simple metric ruler, or vernier calipers or perform simple conversion with a regular english ruler and measure distance between Specialized spacers.

- This value should be in the 70mm range or so...perhaps 71-72mm.

This is because the outboard dimension for bearings on either alloy or carbon OSBB is 68mm. You need a slight gap to be present for the wave washer. If the gap is even greater, do not dispair. The gap should be adjusted to allow the wave washer to compress to approx. 1/2 its free state. Your kit should have come with some narrow washers/shims. This is a good exercise anyway to determine if extra spacers should be added to the left side of the crank...only this should be done on the bike after you press in the bearings...to determine the tolerance stack up your particular BB with bearings in place.

If you read the PDF instruction sheet, it states the crank should be shimmed accordingly.

Note: if the gap between Spesh spacers is 68mm or less, then you know the rings you spoke of earlier, need to be removed for greater clearance to accommodate the wave washer.

Should take you all of 2 minutes to perform the above and will answer your question about the rings beneath the Campy bearings. Be sure to post your findings...


----------



## ssio

Thanks again roadworthy. I did a lot of experimenting with the adapter, I even pressed my old bearings back into the frame so I could try out some things with it. But since after my measuring I couldn't really conclude if removal of the rings near the crankarms was required, and my shop wasn't sure either, I wanted to ask from Specialized. So here's the response from a Specialized engineer (related to the S120400005 Campy OSBB adapter):

"Once the bearings are removed, with the adapters in place, the crank arms can be installed in a Specialized frame, along with the use of a wave washer we provide, and the correct number of shims to eliminate any side-to-side movement. 

The ring that the bearing rests on must remain in place. The inner flange of the Campagnolo bearing rests against it when a traditional Camagnolo crank/bottom bracket setup is used. In this case, the adapter is taking the place of the bearing, and rests against the ring. Consider the ring as part of the crank arm. All we are doing is removing the bearings and seals, and replacing them with our own adapter, wave washer and shims."

So the removal is not necessary. This didn't solve my original issue with the crank spinning with no resistance inside the adapters, but there's a chance the adapter was defective. So my shop ordered few more and we can check it once they'll arrive in couple of days.


----------



## roadworthy

ssio said:


> Thanks again roadworthy. I did a lot of experimenting with the adapter, I even pressed my old bearings back into the frame so I could try out some things with it. But since after my measuring I couldn't really conclude if removal of the rings near the crankarms was required, and my shop wasn't sure either, I wanted to ask from Specialized. So here's the response from a Specialized engineer (related to the S120400005 Campy OSBB adapter):
> 
> "Once the bearings are removed, with the adapters in place, the crank arms can be installed in a Specialized frame, along with the use of a wave washer we provide, and the correct number of shims to eliminate any side-to-side movement.
> 
> The ring that the bearing rests on must remain in place. The inner flange of the Campagnolo bearing rests against it when a traditional Camagnolo crank/bottom bracket setup is used. In this case, the adapter is taking the place of the bearing, and rests against the ring. Consider the ring as part of the crank arm. All we are doing is removing the bearings and seals, and replacing them with our own adapter, wave washer and shims."
> 
> So the removal is not necessary. This didn't solve my original issue with the crank spinning with no resistance inside the adapters, but there's a chance the adapter was defective. So my shop ordered few more and we can check it once they'll arrive in couple of days.


My thought when you wrote your inquiry about removing the rings under the bearings was...quite unlikely that they should be removed. I have never heard of anybody removing those rings which basically act as a hard shoulder for the bearings as a stand off from the crank arm and spider on drive side. So makes sense. Also...good move on going right to the source for your answer...Specialized and thanks for posting their response.

As to 'no resistance' of crank spindle halfshafts on ID of adapters. I guess the question is why shouldn't they be free wheeling? There shouldn't be any interference. A sloppy fit is no good of course. So the question is...what is the adapter ID measure relative to Campy spindle OD? Also, how is the fit of the plastic adapters to the inner race of the BB30 bearing? So, ultimately it depends on overall collective radial clearance...additive clearance of adapter to spindle plus adapter to bearing ID.

Do you have calipers to measure your parts? Calipers are pretty cheap...available in plastic and to me an essential tool for building things.

Let us know if the new parts are any tighter. The adapters should be a slip fit over the crank halfshafts...by design...so a matter of degree when it comes to optimal fit. Free wheeling isn't a bad thing unless the adapter is sloppy on crank halfshaft spindles.


----------



## ssio

There's still ongoing discussion with the helpful Specialized engineer about the adapter fit. My frame is actually a SL3 so it has BB30, I don't need the plastic cups in order to press in the 6806 bearings to the frame. The adapter's fit to inside the bearings is like described on the instruction guide, with friction. They go in by fingers with a bit of force, but no need to use a press to get them in. So that's proper fit and no movement.

The adapters fit to the UT crank half-spindles is not that tight. Specialized confirmed that it is indeed "slip fit" so it's not supposed to be. It's not sloppy, but there is some slight play. Anyone who has removed the UT bearings from the spindles, has seen that the bearing sits on a section that is slightly thicker (less than 1mm). And with my adapters, that thicker section is the only contact point. I did a test with applying a stripe of grease to the spindles, and then sliding in the adapters, and only the 6mm wide thicker section made grease stick to the adapters internal surface. There are also scratch marks on the surface that end there. And on the left crank spindle, where the wavy washer and shims are placed, that contact area is even narrower.

We'll see, I'll probably get new information from Specialized soon. And as the new adapters are still couple of days away from here, all we can do is to speculate whether they are designed to actually contact the crank spindles on larger area or no. But when you look inside them, you'll see a step where the internal diameter changes very slightly.

It's not that bad situation as the road cycling season is still months away where I live.


----------



## roadworthy

A good explanation. All you write comports with a functional design. You mention the adapters have a step in the ID. This agrees with the step or gradation in the spindle diameter as you explain...the slight increase in diameter where the Campy bearing locally presses onto. If you think about how UT functions...the 6mm width you write about which represents the width of a Campy bearing...is all that is needed to ride on the interior of the adapter because it is all the bearing rides on. So it really comes down to the snugness of the adapters radially. Quite possible the replacement adapters will be no more snug on the crank spindles than your current adapters. Riding on the 6mm ledge will be OK. And you will know shortly if the play in the new adapters is acceptable or different. I presume you will be OK.
Good luck.


----------



## ssio

*Update on the Specialized Campy OSBB adapter*

After two weeks of troubleshooting, including more than 30 emails back and forth with Specialized and two sets of half-ruined bearings, I think I've finally managed to get the Campy adapter to work properly with my frame and cranks. The problem that seemed innocent at first, had spread itself into several layers of smaller problems that resulted in the crank incorrectly spinning inside the adapter.

A long story short: my frame has the 42mm alloy OSBB shell, where the circlip grooves are apparently not positioned correctly, so the bearings would press in slightly too deep inboard the shell. A tiny measurement it is (fractions of a millimeter), but enough to cause the adapter to get frame contact while spinning. Non-drive side being worse. It's corrected by having thin spacers between the circlips and the bearings, as adviced by Specialized. Now there is enough clearance for the adapters to spin freely.

However, while the "freewheeling" of the crank spindles inside of the adapters were fixed by this, the crank still had quite loose fit inside the adapters. This resulted in small amount of play and a clunk while you grab the crankarms and twist them sideways. Meanwhile my shop had received a lot of these adapters, so I had the chance to compare mine with other kits. The fit to the spindle just isn't very solid, they will fall off the spindle if you tilt the crank. You can see a gap in the other end between the spindle and the adapter. So it comes down to my set of Chorus cranks, where the thinner part of the spindle is on the lower end of the tolerances. The thicker 6mm section where the UT bearings normally sits, still has quite good contact and engages with the adapter. But it's just the left side crank, which gets the spacers and the wavy washer, so that space is reduced there. One solution seem to be having a layer of thin tape on the crank spindle, positioned carefully on the section after bearings. This way the fit to the adapter is quite snug, and when the UT crank bolt is tightened fully, the cranks feel solid with no play, when twisting by hands.

The bike is still to be built, so the ultimate test by actually riding it on the road, is still at least two months away. Well.. little did I know when I got myself the frameset, about what's coming!  Luckily, Specialized have some very knowledgeable and helpful people working there, and they had the patience to provide me with all the help. Luckily I had this figured out before their fork recall, it could have been different during that time. Lots of measuring and experimenting, I even got myself a digital caliper, which I already found very useful (should have got it years ago..). Those poor frame bearings couldn't take that constant pushing and pulling of adapters, they started to have roughness in them. During this process, at times I was already feeling a bit desperate, but the mood is now changed to hopeful. :thumbsup:


----------



## vaetuning

Hi SSio

Good luck with the built!!

With Respect

Mads


----------



## ssio

vaetuning said:


> Hi SSio
> 
> Good luck with the built!!


Thanks! I guess I will be needing a bit of luck, too with this build,
if it's going to be anything like this with the rest of the bike..


----------



## ssohcc

Hi all! I have a 2012 tarmac pro sl4. I read the whole thread so from what I know, I have a 68mm standard BB30 alloy sleeved bottom bracket, am I correct? I want to install my record crank, do I have another option besides the c-bear sleeve? Or do I need a c-bear sleeve? I know it's the best option for s-works frames with carbon OSBB but what about for tarmac pro's? I hope somebody can chime in. Thanks guys!


----------



## reydin

I've been running the Specialized delrin adapters for the better part of a year on my SL4 with no BB issues.


----------



## ssohcc

reydin said:


> I've been running the Specialized delrin adapters for the better part of a year on my SL4 with no BB issues.


That's good... Your frame is a tarmac sl4 s-works with carbon OSBB and 62mm shell width though. Mine is tarmac sl4 pro with allow OSBB with 68mm. Are there any other solution besides the one from specialized? What about the one that wheels mfg or sram makes? And from what I checked from the wheels mfg website, the 2012 tarmac sl4 pro has CARBON OSBB also, same as the s-works one. That confused me because this thread says the pro has alloy OSBB if I'm not mistaken. I just need to clear this so I can get the right adapter. Thank you.


----------



## bikerjulio

ssohcc said:


> Hi all! I have a 2012 tarmac pro sl4. I read the whole thread so from what I know, I have a 68mm standard BB30 alloy sleeved bottom bracket, am I correct? I want to install my record crank, do I have another option besides the c-bear sleeve? Or do I need a c-bear sleeve? I know it's the best option for s-works frames with carbon OSBB but what about for tarmac pro's? I hope somebody can chime in. Thanks guys!


*IF* it's a standard 68mm X 42mm ID BB30, then the Campy cups work fine. I have had them on my Cannondale for three years with Record UT cranks and no problem whatsoever. Just pressed them in dry. Campy's problems seem to have been with PF30 which is a whole other story.


----------



## roadworthy

*Your Campy BB options for Tarmac SL4 with BB30:*

Well,
You have more options today than you ever had before because the aftermarket has stepped up and even Campy is coming to the party albeit fashionably late. Don't use Campy press in cups for BB30. Avoid like the plague.

As to BB I.D.: Only the Sworks bikes...pretty much all of them...use what is confusingly called carbon OSBB. Guess what? With press in Spesh Delrin bushings, spacing is identical between BB30 and carbon OSBB aka 61mm wide carbon OSBB = 68mm wide with 42mm reducer bushings pressed into the virgin carbon shell. Delrin bushings have a 3.5mm lip on each side.

A run down of BB options:
1. Yes you can use C-bear. But and to me this is prohibitive...it is too pricey. Both Sram and FSA make BB30 BSA pressed in alloy sleeves for 1/5 the price and they work great. Still I wouldn't do a press in sleeve because you have more options than before. Prior to a year ago, a press in alloy English threaded (BSA) sleeve a la C-bear was the best game in town in this ever changing BB saga.

2. Praxis. Contact them. They promised a new sealed expanding collet BB designed to fit BB30 for Campy UT. As with Specialized solution..no. 3 just below...you will have to remove Campy bearings....or they will design the Praxis BB to be essentially cups and use Campy bearings pressed onto respective half shafts. Contact them and find out. Great company and 1/2 the price of C-bear...but still pricier than Sram or FSA sleeve or no. 3:

3. Specialized bushings. What I would do. Press Campy UT bearings off the crank. Specialized bushings which btw were likely developed with Wheel Mfg....are identical to adapters used for popular DA crank, but with slightly different spacing to accommodate the Campy UT crank with 1mm wider spindle dia and slightly different lateral spacing.

4. Campy 'Over Torque' crankset for 2014 which is BB30. If you haven't heard, this is big news. To me, this is the best solution if you can wait for Campy's new BB30 crank. Plug and play. But it won't be cheap...probably in the $600 or so for Chorus or Record.

Those are your options. I would contact Specialized...you can find the part number on line for their bushing kit...its posted in their service manual....that works with Campy UT where you remove the Campy bearings. This to me is the easiest and very effective and utilizes BB30 bearings which are inexpensive to replace even at ABEC-5 quality/tolerance level. Keep in mind, if sticking with BB30 which is a very good option with spacers...use green Loctite to keep the bearings quiet in their bores.

Again to repeat, do not use Campy press in cups. They unpeel from the frame and are a PITA.

Enjoy the new frame. Specialized SL4 framesets...all of them...are outstanding.


----------



## bikerjulio

> Don't use Campy press in cups for BB30. Avoid like the plague.


You don't really want to disagree with Julio, do you?

Speaking as someone who has given them a good trashing for 3 years.


----------



## ssohcc

roadworthy said:


> Well,
> You have more options today than you ever had before because the aftermarket has stepped up and even Campy is coming to the party albeit fashionably late. Don't use Campy press in cups for BB30. Avoid like the plague.
> 
> As to BB I.D.: Only the Sworks bikes...pretty much all of them...use what is confusingly called carbon OSBB. Guess what? With press in Spesh Delrin bushings, spacing is identical between BB30 and carbon OSBB aka 61mm wide carbon OSBB = 68mm wide with 42mm reducer bushings pressed into the virgin carbon shell. Delrin bushings have a 3.5mm lip on each side.
> 
> A run down of BB options:
> 1. Yes you can use C-bear. But and to me this is prohibitive...it is too pricey. Both Sram and FSA make BB30 BSA pressed in alloy sleeves for 1/5 the priced and they work great. Still I wouldn't do a press in sleeve because you have more options than before. Prior to a year ago, a press in alloy English threaded (BSA) sleeve a la C-bear was the best game in town in this ever changing BB saga.
> 
> 2. Praxis. Contact them. They promised a new sealed expanding collet BB designed to fit BB30 for Campy UT. As with Specialized solution..no. 3 just below...you will have to remove Campy bearings....or they will design the Praxis BB to be essentially cups and use Campy bearings pressed onto respective half shafts. Contact them and find out. Great company and 1/2 the price of C-bear...but still pricier than Sram or FSA sleeve or no. 3:
> 
> 3. Specialized bushings. What I would do. Press Campy UT bearings off the crank. Specialized bushings which btw were likely developed with Wheel Mfg....are identical to adapters used for popular DA crank, but with slightly different spacing to accommodate the Campy UT crank with 1mm wider spindle dia and slightly different lateral spacing.
> 
> 4. Campy 'Over Torque' crankset for 2014 which is BB30. If you haven't heard, this is big news. To me, this is the best solution if you can wait for Campy's new BB30 crank. Plug and play. But it won't be cheap...probably in the $600 or so for Chorus or Record.
> 
> Those are your options. I would contact Specialized...you can find the part number on line for their bushing kit...its posted in their service manual....that works with Campy UT where you remove the Campy bearings. This to me is the easiest and very effective and utilizes BB30 bearings which are inexpensive to replace even at ABEC-5 quality/tolerance level. Keep in mind, if sticking with BB30 which is a very good option with spacers...use green Loctite to keep the bearings quiet in their bores.
> 
> Again to repeat, do not use Campy press in cups. They unpeel from the frame and are a PITA.
> 
> Enjoy the new frame. Specialized SL4 framesets...all of them...are outstanding.


Thank you roadworthy! That was a very clear explanation. What got me off is when I checked wheels mfg's website and they listed the tarmac sl4 pro as carbon OSBB. 
Anyway, will the praxis solution require me to remove the UT bearings? I will contact them on this one. Why is it that you won't go with sram or FSA solution? I'm with you with the c-bear. It's too pricey(maybe because of the bearings). For the sram/ fsa sleeve will I be able to retain the UT bearings? Thank you again.


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## roadworthy

ssohcc said:


> Thank you roadworthy! That was a very clear explanation. What got me off is when I checked wheels mfg's website and they listed the tarmac sl4 pro as carbon OSBB.
> Anyway, will the praxis solution require me to remove the UT bearings? I will contact them on this one. Why is it that you won't go with sram or FSA solution? I'm with you with the c-bear. It's too pricey(maybe because of the bearings). For the sram/ fsa sleeve will I be able to retain the UT bearings? Thank you again.


You are welcome brother. Unraveling BB30 options with Campy is like solving one of the mysteries of the universe.  

Why not FSA or Sram alloy BSA press in sleeve? Simple reason its invasive and more difficult to reverse if you want to sell the frame or replace your Campy UT crank with say the new Campy Overtorque BB30 crank. Opinions on this are divided and will share mine. If you go with a push in sleeve which is a VERY effective means of mounting Campy UT, be sure to install with a green Loctite like 641. When it comes time for removal, use some light heat and push it out. Some believe removing a pressed in sleeve isn't advised. This is because BB30 frames have an insert molded alloy cup that is bonded to the carbon. When pushing out the sleeve, this taxes the shear strength bond between the insert molded alloy BB30 races that are molded to the carbon frame. My advice on this is...if you use mild heat and serviceable green Loctite you are good for removal.

Praxis may or may not utilize Campy specific bearings which are pressed onto Campy UT cranks. So a good question. Praxis touted they were ready to release the Campy BB in the spring but its almost fall and I haven't seen one yet, but it may be available now. Check their website or send them an email for an update. In any event, very solid company and no doubt it will be well developed. I will go a step farther and say the Praxis style expanding collet BB is the future of integrated BB's in my technical opinion. If sized appropriately, this BB will work effectively on PF30 aka carbon OSBB's with or without Delrin bushings pressed in because its attachment is predicated on expansion and not glue. It is completely non invasive, i.e. no press. My personal view is BB30 should be eliminated and PF30 should be the BB of the future...having either the option of gluing in BB30 bearings to Delrin bushings which is effective...or going with an expanding BB like Praxis with sealed integrated bearings. A cup version of Praxis utilizing Campy bearings with UT is very viable. You need to contact Praxis if interested.

The purist approach is simply mounting a BB30 Campy crank and ebaying your UT crank which btw, I also ride with English threaded BB on my Roubaix SL3 Pro and has been flawless.

Lastly, best solution if sticking with your crank is the Specialized bushings developed to make Specialized frames compatible with Campy. With respect to Julio, this bushing kit was developed because of poor press fit Campy cup performance and crank forces are much better managed by having BB30 bearings pressed into the BB shell versus having Campy bearings reside in cups external to a press fit into the BB shell. Basic engineering. Same bushing kit for Sworks aka carbon OSBB as for a SL4 Pro bike and other BB30 bike models because as discussed, crank spacing is identical for both OSBB types because with carbon OSBB Delrin bushings are pressed into the BB shell.

You have a menu of good options and will have to decide


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## ssohcc

roadworthy said:


> You are welcome brother. Unraveling BB30 options with Campy is like solving one of the mysteries of the universe.
> 
> Why not FSA or Sram alloy BSA press in sleeve? Simple reason its invasive and more difficult to reverse if you want to sell the frame or replace your Campy UT crank with say the new Campy Overtorque BB30 crank. Opinions on this are divided and will share mine. If you go with a push in sleeve which is a VERY effective means of mounting Campy UT, be sure to install with a green Loctite like 641. When it comes time for removal, use some light heat and push it out. Some believe removing a pressed in sleeve isn't advised. This is because BB30 frames have an insert molded alloy cup that is bonded to the carbon. When pushing out the sleeve, this taxes the shear strength bond between the insert molded alloy BB30 races that are molded to the carbon frame. My advice on this is...if you use mild heat and serviceable green Loctite you are good for removal.
> 
> Praxis may or may not utilize Campy specific bearings which are pressed onto Campy UT cranks. So a good question. Praxis touted they were ready to release the Campy BB in the spring but its almost fall and I haven't seen one yet, but it may be available now. Check their website or send them an email for an update. In any event, very solid company and no doubt it will be well developed. I will go a step farther and say the Praxis style expanding collet BB is the future of integrated BB's in my technical opinion. If sized appropriately, this BB will work effectively on PF30 aka carbon OSBB's with or without Delrin bushings pressed in because its attachment is predicated on expansion and not glue. It is completely non invasive, i.e. no press. My personal view is BB30 should be eliminated and PF30 should be the BB of the future...having either the option of gluing in BB30 bearings to Delrin bushings which is effective...or going with an expanding BB like Praxis with sealed integrated bearings. A cup version of Praxis utilizing Campy bearings with UT is very viable. You need to contact Praxis if interested.
> 
> The purist approach is simply mounting a BB30 Campy crank and ebaying your UT crank which btw, I also ride with English threaded BB on my Roubaix SL3 Pro and has been flawless.
> 
> Lastly, best solution if sticking with your crank is the Specialized bushings developed to make Specialized frames compatible with Campy. With respect to Julio, this bushing kit was developed because of poor press fit Campy cup performance and crank forces are much better managed by having BB30 bearings pressed into the BB shell versus having Campy bearings reside in cups external to a press fit into the BB shell. Basic engineering. Same bushing kit for Sworks aka carbon OSBB as for a SL4 Pro bike and other BB30 bike models because as discussed, crank spacing is identical for both OSBB types because with carbon OSBB Delrin bushings are pressed into the BB shell.
> 
> You have a menu of good options and will have to decide


I know, this became confusing because of a lot of options and opinions out there. I contacted Praxis and the BB30 campy adaptor is still being developed as of this time. What about the one from Wheels Manufacturing? Is it a good option except for the two extra bearings? I will go to a specialized dealer nearby and see what they have for me. Thank you again. You've helped me a lot.


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## c-bear

Judging from your(ssohcc) description, you have a frame with a std bb30 bb shell, therefore, you only need a set of campagnolo cups (68x42) that is it (just as julio pointed out). Not to be confused with the Specialized “non-std” pf30 bb shell – mainly in Specialized carbon road frame – your frame is not one of those.

And to be fair, one needs to compare apple with apple, c-bear bb all comes with ceramic bearings. If you factor out the general cost of ceramic bearings, c-bear components are very good value when judging its performance, material and design.

Also “Campy 'Over Torque' crankset for 2014 which is BB30.” is not correct. Campy ‘over torque’ is not a standard BB30 (which requires a 68mm bb shell) crankset.


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## roadworthy

ssohcc said:


> I know, this became confusing because of a lot of options and opinions out there. I contacted Praxis and the BB30 campy adaptor is still being developed as of this time. What about the one from Wheels Manufacturing? Is it a good option except for the two extra bearings? I will go to a specialized dealer nearby and see what they have for me. Thank you again. You've helped me a lot.


ss,
I would steer clear of the Wheel Mfg Campy solution personally...if it uses both sets of bearings, BB30 internal and maintaining Campy smaller external bearings. A bit of an albatross with redundant bearings.
Belt and suspenders and kind of a ridiculous work around to not removing Campy bearings like the Specialized designed adapters do...see below.

C-bear is wrong about the new Campy Over Torque crank. It IS BB30 and will fit wider press fit integrated solutions as well. See link. Will mount to BB30 applications like your SL4 Tarmac with-OUT adapters...clearly stated.

2014 Campagnolo Details Emerge ? Internal EPS Battery, BB30 Cranksets & More!

Further, ceramic bearings are more marketing than any real life benefit and are needlessly costly. You can get BB30 ABEC-5 quality bearings for $8 each...what makes BB30 such a great alternative to integrated bearing solutions.

As to Julio's adherence to Campy's press fit cups. There is no accounting for taste or judgement...lol. Some guys still like square taper or even Campy Power Torque cranks.

I told you your most cost effective and most design robust option.
See below. If you order the part number shown from your Specialized dealer, you will be fine with your UT crank.

Have fun.


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## tommyturbo

FWIW, I just went through the Campy crankset issue with my 2014 S-Works Tarmac, which has the carbon OSBB. I went with the C-Bear alloy sleeve adapter, which as others have described, is a bomb-proof solution, and as C-Bear mentioned, does include very high quality ceramic bearings. 

I didn't try the Specialized adapters, but I have heard of so many problems with the standard Delrin cups and bearings that I didn't want to mess with that. Have your mechanic show you the cups and make up your own mind. I didn't like the looks of the pressed in plastic cups (with bearings pressed into them) at all, and in my opinion the adapters would just add another potential "moving part" issue. 

Since the alloy BB30 does not require the Delrin cups, I am sure that that a more simple solution will work fine.

C-Bear commented on the 2014 Campy Over Torque crank. Do you know if this crank will be a plug and play option for the carbon OSBB?


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## roadworthy

tommyturbo said:


> FWIW, I just went through the Campy crankset issue with my 2014 S-Works Tarmac, which has the carbon OSBB. I went with the C-Bear alloy sleeve adapter, which as others have described, is a bomb-proof solution, and as C-Bear mentioned, does include very high quality ceramic bearings.
> 
> I didn't try the Specialized adapters, but I have heard of so many problems with the standard Delrin cups and bearings that I didn't want to mess with that. Have your mechanic show you the cups and make up your own mind. I didn't like the looks of the pressed in plastic cups (with bearings pressed into them) at all, and in my opinion the adapters would just add another potential "moving part" issue.
> 
> Since the alloy BB30 does not require the Delrin cups, I am sure that that a more simple solution will work fine.
> 
> C-Bear commented on the 2014 Campy Over Torque crank. Do you know if this crank will be a plug and play option for the carbon OSBB?


First congrats on your new Sworks Tarmac. Can you comment on how you like the feel of the bike? New SL4 bikes are supposed to be fantastic.

Your comment about delrin cups pressed into a virgin 46mm ID frame isn't really valid. Its a solid design and works wonderfully with the Specialized spacers I show in the picture. The reason that so many struggled with the Sworks delrin bushings is because of improper installation. Specialized is partly to blame for this. They changed their procedure after initial release of carbon OSBB a couple of years ago because of creaking. They now correctly spec BOTH Loctiting the OD of the delring bushings AND OD of BB30 bearings. This is rock solid...no runs, drips or errors.

C-bears sleeve is a good solution for Campy UT cranks, just pricey a bit more invasive in terms of reversibility if you want to push it out. C-bear himself can comment on the reversibility of the sleeve. I know Mads pressed them in dry.

As to the new 2014 Campy Over Torque crank, it is BB30 and plug and play on both alloy OSBB and carbon OSBB. Keep in mind, with delrin bushings pressed into carbon OSBB, crank spacing is identical for both alloy and carbon OSBB...and why the Specialized crank fits both plug and play. If you fish around the web, there is a bit of info now available on the new Campy BB30 crank.
Cheers.


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## tommyturbo

What I said was, "Have your mechanic show you the cups and make up your own mind. I didn't like the looks of the pressed in plastic cups..." In other words, I personally didn't like the way the PF30 setup looks. I guess I prefer both a really solid looking and feeling BB. I also went with a C-Bear PF30 ceramic BB for my Epic. I've had it with the Delrin cups on that bike, as I have gone through bottom brackets with great regularity.

My new SL4 is my fifth carbon Tarmac, all of them S-Works. One might say that I drink the Kool-Aid, but I still don't like that Specialized went to the PF30. From what I have heard, BB30 is a much better design, but of course it is more expensive to produce the frames. I don't have any photos with a file size small enough to post here, but I have posted some shots on my cycling blog:

Tom's Bicycle Thoughts & More...

I had the original SL, a second SL (warranty replacement), the SL2, SL3, and now SL4. All of these bikes were built up from the frame using Campagnolo components. I'm going to write an article and post it on my cycling blog comparing all of the bikes. I continue to be amazed at how Specialized continues to improve the Tarmac.


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## ukbloke

tommyturbo said:


> but I still don't like that Specialized went to the PF30. From what I have heard, BB30 is a much better design, but of course it is more expensive to produce the frames.


I agree with your conclusions on PF30. I don't see any real benefits (to me) from this design, and for me the jury's still out on long-term reliability. I don't think that PF30 versus BB30 is related to cost, however. PF30 is only on the S-Works level bikes (more money), while they put alloy BB30 on the Pro and some lower level bikes (less money). For Specialized I think this is about saving some incremental frame weight, some incremental claimed increase in BB shell stiffness but mostly about product differentiation i.e. carbon BB shell presumed better than alloy BB shell - it must be better it's carbon! Since I'm only interested in "traditional" cranksets (i.e. non-BB30 compatible), the problem I have with the more engineered after-market solutions is the weight gain. What is saved on the frame is more than spent on the BB. It seems like I'd be better off with a threaded frame-set, which of course doesn't exist in any more in the Tarmac lineup.

It seems that Campy has finally "blessed" the BB30 crank standard. I wonder if Shimano will ever do the same? Shimano doesn't like to follow.


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## tommyturbo

Ukbloke, I agree with everything you said, except for the frame manufacturing cost part. I've read that it is less expensive to manufacture the carbon OSBB frame because there is less labor involved since it doesn't have to be finished to as an exacting diameter as the shell has to be for BB30. I guess with BB30, you have to have a pretty precisely manufactured shell so the circlips fit properly. With PF30, the "squish" of the press in cups make up for the less precise finish. But I am no expert, and I would love to learn more from the experts if what I have read is not correct.


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## ukbloke

tommyturbo said:


> Ukbloke, I agree with everything you said, except for the frame manufacturing cost part. I've read that it is less expensive to manufacture the carbon OSBB frame because there is less labor involved since it doesn't have to be finished to as an exacting diameter as the shell has to be for BB30. I guess with BB30, you have to have a pretty precisely manufactured shell so the circlips fit properly. With PF30, the "squish" of the press in cups make up for the less precise finish. But I am no expert, and I would love to learn more from the experts if what I have read is not correct.


This may well be true, but I don't think that this explains *why* they decided to put PF30 on the SWorks frames but not other frames. IMHO, that decision was not because of incremental cost saving.


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## roadworthy

tommyturbo said:


> Ukbloke, I agree with everything you said, except for the frame manufacturing cost part. I've read that it is less expensive to manufacture the carbon OSBB frame because there is less labor involved since it doesn't have to be finished to as an exacting diameter as the shell has to be for BB30. I guess with BB30, you have to have a pretty precisely manufactured shell so the circlips fit properly. With PF30, the "squish" of the press in cups make up for the less precise finish. But I am no expert, and I would love to learn more from the experts if what I have read is not correct.


Your description is downright inaccurate...but PF30 is less expensive to manfacture than BB30.


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## roadworthy

ukbloke said:


> I agree with your conclusions on PF30. I don't see any real benefits (to me) from this design, and for me the jury's still out on long-term reliability. I don't think that PF30 versus BB30 is related to cost, however. PF30 is only on the S-Works level bikes (more money), while they put alloy BB30 on the Pro and some lower level bikes (less money). For Specialized I think this is about saving some incremental frame weight, some incremental claimed increase in BB shell stiffness but mostly about product differentiation i.e. carbon BB shell presumed better than alloy BB shell - it must be better it's carbon! Since I'm only interested in "traditional" cranksets (i.e. non-BB30 compatible), the problem I have with the more engineered after-market solutions is the weight gain. What is saved on the frame is more than spent on the BB. It seems like I'd be better off with a threaded frame-set, which of course doesn't exist in any more in the Tarmac lineup.
> 
> It seems that Campy has finally "blessed" the BB30 crank standard. I wonder if Shimano will ever do the same? Shimano doesn't like to follow.


Although you make a few fair points, the jury isn't still out about PF30 which was invented by Cannondale many years ago now. PF30 is used widely in the industry and it is excellent...but only for those that have experience with it and know what they are doing. I would say 99% of the ill based comments about PF30 are based upon ignorance, aka nobody has ever set one up...or a hundred of them with different cranks. If they had, they would understand the design intent of the engineers that developed PF30 and all the major bike companies that sell their best race bikes with this BB design.
A PF30 will last 50 years changing bearings 2 X's a year if necessary.
Delrin bushings are inexpensive , sacrificial and replaceable over time unlike insert molded BB30 alloy races.
As to why PF30 or BB30? Light, stiff and easy to change the BB...20 minutes for a skilled wrench. Bearing cost versus an integrated solution? Pennies on the dollar....much cheaper for quality ABEC-5 BB30 than either threaded or press fit integrated bearings.

The guys who denigrated the design of BB30 or PF30 haven't worked on them or don't know how to work on them or take their bike to the bike shop that don't know how to work on them. Above dynamic is common.
PF/BB30 is simple and effective and less expensive to own than English threaded alternatives provided the owner knows what he is doing.


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## roadworthy

ukbloke said:


> This may well be true, but I don't think that this explains *why* they decided to put PF30 on the SWorks frames but not other frames. IMHO, that decision was not because of incremental cost saving.


I believe your earlier comments were accurate....largely a weight issue but only a handful of grams difference between BB30 and PF30. Stiffness differential is negligible as well. I will tell you it is quite remarkable that the BB designs are so radically different...one uses an alloy race to retain BB30 bearings (BB30) and the other...Acetal bushings aka PF30. Both are effective and yet quite different. If given a choice I prefer PF30 to insert molded alloy races which aren't necessary, nor are they replacable as with PF30.


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