# cracking a carbon frame by sitting on the top tube?



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

So I'm out for a ride tonight at White Rock Lake, a popular roadie loop in Dallas. Come up beside a guy I kinda recognize from the local races, start chatting about whatever. He says, yeah I got some bad news today, this frame is cracked and they won't warranty it. 

He showed me the crack(s), which I could barely see since we were riding along and the light wasn't great, but then he gets out the saddle and honks it a bit and the bike is creaking worse than my knees.

So I say... did you crash it? Did it fall? What happened?

He says nope, all they can figure is it's from sitting on the top tube.

WTF? Are carbon race frames that light and flimsy? Who doesn't sit on their top tube when standing around waiting for the ride to start? And why wouldn't a manufacturer at least put a sticker somewhere?


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## Sojourneyman (Jun 22, 2007)

/why's he riding around on a cracked frame??


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

just look at 'em funny and they will explode...


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## Walkinshaw (Jan 19, 2009)

They are designed to be loaded through the seat post, BB and head stem. They aren't designed to have any of the tubes loaded in bending from a concentrated load.


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## sscooterguy (Jun 20, 2008)

This is really stupid if they are that fragile. I ride my bike and sit on the top tube, hang it from the wall, pop the occasional wheelie. I mean damn, if I want to carry cargo on my carbon bike, I expect it to last no matter what it was designed for. What brand and model was it, so I can stay away from it? I have a carbon frame that I sit on the top tube at red lights all the time. 

I some how suspect that there is more to the story though. I wonder if it has been crashed or damaged otherwise. In any case, that sucks.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

yeah there's always the chance the guy was flat-out lying, or had forgotten some mishap that seemed minor at the time. 

but I like the original theory better.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

Yup, a broom stick falls over in the garage and lands on your aluminum top tube...and instant dent! If you sit on an aluminum top tube, theres a chance of getting a dent. If you sit on a carbon frame...crack city baby. The frames are designed to take ride loads from sitting in the saddle. There is not any design for leaning and sitting on top tubes. If you want bomb proof, then invest in a steel frame.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

....

must've been a Giant.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Why would anyone sit on their top tube?

Independent of how strong CF is I can imagine that some serious downward weight could cause a problem depending on the design of the top tube. But that's probably true of any material. My C50 with its cloverleaf leaf x-section - no problem. My Look with its graceful arch, maybe not so good.

Independent of design though, it seems like a really dumb and uncomfortable idea to put your full weight down on it.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

He one of those big types? Seems logical. Some of those light frames get pretty thin in the center sections. Not very smart to ride if it is creaking. 

<sigh> I've done that for so long on my steel and alu, better change that practice with the CF. Although I don't really sit on it, I hang a leg over it while at rest. I've seen enough peeps sitting on the top tube just as you mention.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

terry b said:


> Why would anyone sit on their top tube?
> 
> Independent of design though, it seems like a really dumb and uncomfortable idea to put your full weight down on it.


you're pulling my leg, right?


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## B15serv (Apr 27, 2008)

Yea I think as the years go by the excuse of "he's probably lying" will start to fade when it comes to cracked carbon frames. I have carbon stays, fork, bars, post and i think theyre fine but this growing number of stories about carbon frames cracking is causing concern for alot of people. there always seems to be some excuse though, like he's lying or you sholdnt have ridden 3 feet in grass... etc. and although theres alot of peeps out there with old carbon frames that are fine i still feel nervous.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

B15serv said:


> Yea I think as the years go by the excuse of "he's probably lying" will start to fade when it comes to cracked carbon frames. I have carbon stays, fork, bars, post and i think theyre fine but this growing number of stories about carbon frames cracking is causing concern for alot of people. there always seems to be some excuse though, like he's lying or you sholdnt have ridden 3 feet in grass... etc. and although theres alot of peeps out there with old carbon frames that are fine i still feel nervous.


It's not a carbon problem. When designers/builders push the envelope to achieve lighter and lighter frames durability will suffer. Doesn't matter what material it's made from. To get lighter frames you have to compromise somewhere so you design for normal loads and take out material where the frame is not normally loaded. Sitting on the TT is not a normal load. Super thin alu tubes dent easily. Like another poster said, a broom handle falling on an ultra light alu TT can leave a crease. You could make, and manufacturers do make, carbon tubes and layups that can easily withstand sitting on the TT. Mountain bike carbon frames are typically much more robust and designed to withstand loads from many directions because they're stressed from many more directions and crash often.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

The Giant catalog I have for Japan '08 domestic bikes shows a guy sitting on the top tube watching a sunset. I've seen other visual references like this. As an unconscious thought and for those who rode thick walled steel or alu bikes, this is a bad practice to carry over to CF. Good discussion so that others may be aware now.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

eddy merckx did it. so did paola pezzo (who can forget that fisher bikes poster?). so that's what all the cool kids do in the parking lot while waiting for the ride to start.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

I sit on my tob tube at long red lights


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## fasteddy07 (Jun 4, 2007)

*Steel Dents Too...*



Hooben said:


> Yup, a broom stick falls over in the garage and lands on your aluminum top tube...and instant dent! If you sit on an aluminum top tube, theres a chance of getting a dent. If you sit on a carbon frame...crack city baby. The frames are designed to take ride loads from sitting in the saddle. There is not any design for leaning and sitting on top tubes. If you want bomb proof, then invest in a steel frame.


Got me a few of them steel frames -

Both my Roberts and MX Leader, both built up in MAX have there share of dents in them..

The nice difference is, I am not worried about failure ....


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## iherald (Oct 13, 2005)

Calfee will fix it from what I've been told


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## holy cromoly (Nov 9, 2008)

As the others said, all materials will be damaged to some extent.

Back in the Cipollini/Saeco days, Cannondale used to ship out CAAD frames that were sawed in half to show off the cross section of the entire frame.

The walls of the tubes were shockingly as thin as a business card at the center of the top and down tubes. After seeing that, I thought to myself back then to not sit on the top tube, even though I was only 130 pounds.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Steel set the standard for how bikes behave; the ability to sit on your top tube was is such a common activity and steel frames could always handle that without flinching. So now you're telling me all these uber materials come out and outdo steel in the weight, stiffness, blahblahblah department but they can't handle the day to day handling like sitting on the top tube?! Then that's the price you pay for lusting after those newfangled superbikes. They're sorta like supermodels; great to look at but they aren't worth much else. I think I'll go sit on my steel top tube and laugh...


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> you're pulling my leg, right?


Why would he be pulling your leg?

I've never sat on the top tube of any of my bikes...not because I think it would hurt them, but because I've never even had the idea of doing so. I sit on the saddle. If I'm stopped, I stand. If I want to sit when I'm stopped, I get off the bike completely. I've never considered sitting on the top tube, and now that people mention they do, I guess I never thought of it because it seems like an uncomfortable place to sit.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

yiu missed a HUGELY important bit of info from the post...what did he weigh 
oh and details! - what frame was it? brand model?


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

Jwiffle said:


> Why would he be pulling your leg?
> 
> I've never sat on the top tube of any of my bikes...not because I think it would hurt them, but because I've never even had the idea of doing so. I sit on the saddle. If I'm stopped, I stand. If I want to sit when I'm stopped, I get off the bike completely. I've never considered sitting on the top tube, and now that people mention they do, I guess I never thought of it because it seems like an uncomfortable place to sit.


So you've never raced then I take it


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

-dustin said:


> ....
> 
> must've been a Giant.


nevermind...an Orbea.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

-dustin said:


> nevermind...an Orbea.


I have an Orbea Orca ('07).
I have routinely sat on the top tube while riding (its a goofy habit I've had for a long time, don't ask)
I have jumped curbs on it.
I have popped wheelies on it (not that high, 1-2 feet off the ground)
It fell over once when I didn't secure it well during a roadside "break"
My Orca doesn't creak or moan, nor does it have any cracks.
The handling is razor sharp and inspires confidence on fast (44mph) canyon descents.
The subject of durability of carbon has been debated ad nauseam on these forums.
All materials fail at some point.
If that guys bike really cracked by simply sitting on the top tube then it has a major design or manufacturing flaw. If I sat on the top tube of my Orbea and it cracked as a result, I damn sure wouldn't be riding it again. For the record, I have a full carbon mountain bike too that I crash on a regular basis. No problems.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

terry b said:


> Why would anyone sit on their top tube?
> ...Independent of design though, it seems like a really dumb and uncomfortable idea to put your full weight down on it.


It may or may not be dumb, but I do it often just to get my legs into a different position after a long time in the saddle. It's not like I ride for miles on the top tube, I'll just coast up to the light or a rest spot while sitting on the top tube for about 25 yards. 

You have to think that any bike should be able to handle that (sitting on the top tube) no matter what it is made of. There is no doubt that carbon reacts differently from _impact _than steel or aluminum because it doesn't really bend or dent, it cracks or breaks. Still, when properly laid up for the specific application (bicycle frame, airplane fuselage, Formula One car chassis etc) it is stronger and lighter than steel and will support weight any where you place it.


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## ukiahb (Jan 26, 2003)

terry b said:


> Why would anyone sit on their top tube?
> 
> Independent of how strong CF is I can imagine that some serious downward weight could cause a problem depending on the design of the top tube. But that's probably true of any material. My C50 with its cloverleaf leaf x-section - no problem. My Look with its graceful arch, maybe not so good.
> 
> Independent of design though, it seems like a really dumb and uncomfortable idea to put your full weight down on it.


FWIW I do it all the time (I'm perpendicular to the bike, the bike is leaned over using the top tube as a reasonably comfortable seat/prop) while BS'ing and waiting for club rides to start or during rest stops, never a problem with my steel frames and I'm fairly heavy at 200 lbs. and ride a big frame with long tubes...


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

CF can be made extremely strong, but like someone else mentioned they cut weight and that cuts strength. That's true with other components as well, look at all the light weight cranks and those puppies are being snapped all the time.....not cool when your 40miles from home in the middle of nowhere.

Anything on your bike at anytime will snap under too much load. You're kidding yourself if you think your current ride will never have problems.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

I know a bit about carbon fiber. I've owned about 15 different brands of CF bike frames, I make some of my own components and repair the stuff. Let me guess how this cracked frame is designed and built.

I bet it (this cracked frame) has mitered, glued frame joints, like is done with(some) Scott, Giant, DeRosa and others. This method of building carbon frames can be 'sketchy' in my opinion. I had a look, not long ago, at a CR1 Scott frame in a 'cut-away' demo piece that was at my local bike shop. I was shocked. The carbon tubes, the frame members, they are cut into miters to join to the other tubes and then supposedly reinforced with some carbon fabric on the outside to hold the joints together and make the frame into a unit. This whole mess is then sanded and painted over at each tube junction.

The 'frame model cut-away' I saw was appalling! The miters weren't even close and they were 'tacked together" inside with just a few small blobs of goo only. Huge (>1/8") gaps with nothing but air holding the tubes, inside the joints. The outside had lots of body putty to make it smooth, probably with a few pieces of carbon fabric that was supposed to hold the tubes together at the joints....you couldn't inspect the quality of that part of the 'lay-up', under the paint and body putty. It may have been ok, but given the inaccurate fit of the joints between the tubes, I have my doubts about that..

Seeing that 'cutaway' model stole my confidence in the CR-1 superlight frame. I sold mine ASAP. Yes, it was very light. It was probably built at a big profit despite it's relatively low selling price. Great for marketing, but when I was flying down a 10% mountain grade with no guardrails and cobby pavement, I found myself thinking of those 'air-joints' covered in micro-ballons and paint and imagining the headtube busting right off in my hands..Not a pretty thing to contemplate at ~50mph.

The 'mitered joint' construction method for carbon frames does make for a very light frame, one that can be built by unskilled workers chopping up pieces using jigs. The builders can vary the geometry and build infinite sizes that way without huge tooling expense. But, in marketing quest for Super Light frames, the builders doing this type of frames can error on the flimsy side with the joints.. Sit on one of these wrong and I can see it fracturing..

Don Hanson


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

There should be a standard set for each CF frame that hits the market. Like you mentioned, bombing a hill at 50mph can be deadly if your bike comes apart. 

Perhaps a good reason to buy from a reputable source as opposed to these no name shops in asia that will slap anyones brand label on a piece of carbon.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

heathb said:


> Perhaps a good reason to buy from a reputable source as opposed to these no name shops in asia that will slap anyones brand label on a piece of carbon.


Isn't that like 90% of carbon bikes?


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I'm sure it's 90% at least. Most of the money seems to be going into paint jobs to pimp the ride. Personally I consider that the least important part of the bike. I'd rather that money be spent building a machine that will hold up to some seriously hard riding. 

At the end of the day though, you can build a steel frame bike for 1/3rd the cost of a CF. Would be interesting to see if in the future people get sick of dumping there life savings into frames that don't hold up.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Even reputable brands, no matter what the material, they sometimes make mistakes.

Recently I've heard DeRosa has some breakage problems. They are a 'brand name' make in Italy..blah blah...

Giant is/was a noted 'wobbler' there for a while.

But sh*t happens. Many brands have 'factory recalls'. Heck, I had an almost new GM motorhome in Mexico and the stinking steering wheel came right off in my hands...When I got back to the States (drove it with some vicegrips on the steering wheel shaft for a few miles) there was a factory recall notice waiting in my mail...

I had a well-respected custom frame guy do me a steel racebike in the pre-carbon days. First ride on the first descent it went into a speed wobble so violent it threw the watch right off my wrist. Went back to him with the bike and he found he'd mistakenly installed a 'small person' fork, having two bins of forks sitting in his shop, side by side.

The really pricey manufacturers have good reps and very very few customer complaints, ever. They take more care in building and in quality control. Perhaps they are a bit more conservative in design...But they have great reps. because they have fewer problems and when they do have a problem...They simply make it right to the customer with few questions asked...Look has an especially great Customer service.

Don Hanson


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## Inferno218 (Jan 25, 2009)

Creakyknees said:


> So I'm out for a ride tonight at White Rock Lake, a popular roadie loop in Dallas. Come up beside a guy I kinda recognize from the local races, start chatting about whatever. He says, yeah I got some bad news today, this frame is cracked and they won't warranty it.
> 
> He showed me the crack(s), which I could barely see since we were riding along and the light wasn't great, but then he gets out the saddle and honks it a bit and the bike is creaking worse than my knees.
> 
> ...



That was me that you saw that night. I just got my answer back from orbea and I have posted my story on the Orbea forum. I am going to post some pictures asap.

BS if you ask me. You heard that frame Creaky, do you think there is any way I could have raced on that frame 9 days earlier??

Oh, and I am on a Cerelo R3 now. No more Orbea for me unless they get straight on the warranty.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

That sux...:shocked:


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

see my post on crashed Time. This is a very (Time)ly thread. If you want reliability look at steel and Ti and even then choose straight guage Ti (not butted) tubes and dont buy super-light steel either. All those super-lightweight solutions are not designed to last long. And they will last even less if you drop it or drop something on it by accident. I am wondering if there is going to be a back-flip on carbon fibre road frames in next few years as more and more of silly-lightweight carbon frames and carbon forks start to fail. Perhaps I am paranoid. I am not targeting any brand - all are more or less equal. Carbon fibre is rather brittle today. They will fix it in future, I am sure. But it will take many years. IMHO.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Creaky, you must tell us. What brand of bike was this?


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## Uncle Grumpy (Jul 25, 2005)

I sit on my top tube. You know, lean the bike under my butt and rest on the top tube.

With the steel De Rosa wedged under my butt and my long flowing locks, firm thighs and Cippo-esque good looks, who can argue that it's a sexy pose?

I wouldn't do it on a carbon frame though. I don't have a carbon frame to lean on and I don't see myself getting one.

True friends don't let friends ride carbon.

Grumps


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## george kraushaar (Jan 15, 2007)

I see my CF riding buddies sitting on the top tubes all the time. At an event this weekend, there was a crash and an expensive Ridley ended up in two separate pieces. I don't know if there was any connection between the sitting and the broken frame


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

george kraushaar said:


> At an event this weekend, there was a crash and an expensive Ridley ended up in two separate pieces.


It happens. Sometimes in a crash, expensive carbon bikes break. Cheap steel bikes break too. 
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=456757


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## rydog9991 (Jul 15, 2008)

Look at page 67 of the May issue of Road Bike Action. There is about 200 pro racers sitting on their top tubes waiting for a race to start.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Waaaaaaaiiiiit a minute.

So, 190 pros at this Giro all broke their bikes too sitting on the top tubes while waiting for the race start?


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## PaulRivers (Sep 11, 2006)

The fact that the manufacturer saves money by creating an excuse for why they won't honor their warranty isn't proof that their excuse is correct, it's proof that they're jackasses. Or perhaps there is more to the story you don't know about. But I'd go with that they're just coming up with an excuse to not pay for another frame and the labor of moving the parts over. That's crappy. :-(

I stopped worrying about the supposedly "fragility" of carbon fiber when I met someone who's fork had sheared mid-ride and without warning. He broke his collarbone. The fork material? Steel. Only person I know who's broken something as a result of random frame failure (not a crash or something like that).


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

everything breaks but the lighter it is the more likely it is to break. i bet the steel forks were old and well used and perhaps crashed in the past so they failed. carbon is made to be lighter and lighter and hence it is brittle across the fibres. i spoke to my custom frame builder who said (just for one example) that WoundUp forks are super strong in all directions even though carbon because they are relatively heavy, there is a lot of carbon fibre and less resin, he even said those forks are probably stronger than the titanium frames they make. But you pay for it in +100grams of exra weight compared to more regular carbon forks. Hence those super light 1kg frames and 200 grams forks do not instill me with confidence post any kind of crash or simple fall. Even if they re made of metal.


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## prisky (May 30, 2009)

Reading this gives me new faith in my avanti team corsa frame.Dedacciai carbon seat/chainstays alloy main triangle.columbus muscle forks.its not a Pinarello but it suffices


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## dookie (Oct 1, 2007)

prisky said:


> ...alloy main triangle...


don't sit on that top tube! it'll crumple like a beer can and the sharp edges will gouge the carbon...


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

I'd never sit on the top tbe of my SuperSix... its not made to handle those loads...and the walls are ridiculously thin!


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

This story reeks of BS.

What kind of frame was it?

Sorry, I don't believe you or your buddy was lying to you and really crashed it.

No offense, just sayin.


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## Le Wrench (May 12, 2009)

carbonLORD said:


> This story reeks of BS.
> 
> What kind of frame was it?
> 
> ...


I too have my doubts about this story, I just didn't want to be one of those people who brush off everything as BS on the web.

But... I am going to side with CarbonLord on this one and press the BS button.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Le Wrench said:


> I too have my doubts about this story, I just didn't want to be one of those people who brush off everything as BS on the web.
> 
> But... I am going to side with CarbonLord on this one and press the BS button.


+1
Agree 100%!


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

The frame was a Trek Madone. Top tube not to durable on those bikes.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

This thread is filled with Epic Fail.


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## Balderick (Jul 11, 2006)

Uncle Grumpy said:


> I sit on my top tube. You know, lean the bike under my butt and rest on the top tube.
> 
> With the steel De Rosa wedged under my butt and my long flowing locks, firm thighs and Cippo-esque good looks, who can argue that it's a sexy pose?
> 
> ...


Grumps,

I have seen you in this pose, in your MTB days. Perhaps the addition of the road bike adds something to the sexiness of the image...



Others,

I have not sat on the top tube of any of my road bikes (Steel, Al, Ti and CF). My reason is simple - I have just assumed that my road bikes are not designed to take my sadly huge body mass anywhere other than on the handlebars and saddle - simply because all seem to have been designed with lightness as a significant design objective. 

Yes, I do race and often. I do see other folks at racing sitting on their TTs, and while I have not undertaken a complete survey my quick analysis is that TT sitters amongst the local racing community are not under represented or over represented in those who are successful or regular racers.

I have, however, sat of the TT of my steel and Al MTBs. Both were Giant brand. Neither had heavily butted TTs, and I thought they would be fine for the odd leaning type of sitting that the Grumpy Uncle describes above.

Perhaps kind of related - how many TT sitters would attach their bike to a bike carrier that attaches solely to the TT? Personally, I will not let any of my bikes be carried by such carriers.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.velonews.com/article/93054/a-shattering-experience---a-post-recall-r-sys-wheel-failure

think carbon ?

i would urge you to think again.


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## dookie (Oct 1, 2007)

acid_rider said:


> think carbon ?
> 
> i would urge you to think again.


blah blah blah...

carbon soda straws for spokes are apparently an inappropriate (or inappropriately engineered) use of the material. the material itself is not the problem.


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## whataklug (Mar 6, 2007)

I have seen every medium of frame fail. The question to ponder is, "were you within the lifecycle and habits of a racer on a race day frame?" I do not know of a pro racing the same bike they did last year. Going back a ways, I will say that all of the Cross country RACE bikes I had, the frames cracked. Remember... you get two pieces of the pie on each bike..
Light+strong....not cheap
Strong+cheap...not light
Cheap and light...not strong.
Oh, and if it has been on sale for like five years...IT SUCKS!!!!!
(sorry neuvation)


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

acid_rider said:


> http://www.velonews.com/article/93054/a-shattering-experience---a-post-recall-r-sys-wheel-failure
> 
> think carbon ?
> 
> i would urge you to think again.




broad generalizations ?

i would urge you to think again.


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## Le Wrench (May 12, 2009)

dookie said:


> blah blah blah...
> 
> carbon soda straws for spokes are apparently an inappropriate (or inappropriately engineered) use of the material. the material itself is not the problem.


The real problem was probably the recycled Barbie doll hair.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*yes and no*



dookie said:


> blah blah blah...
> 
> carbon soda straws for spokes are apparently an inappropriate (or inappropriately engineered) use of the material. the material itself is not the problem.


yes, material is not the problem, it is how it's made today. and most carbon is made to be light and stiff - those are the priorities in racing world and following that majority of riders buy the same tech as elite. so something has got to give. the way carbon is made for bicycles is such that it is not anywhere near as crash-worthy as steel and titanium. so i agree - carbon in itself is not the problem - but the way it's made sure is. if you made carbon frame like WoundUp make their road carbon forks (heavy, strong) then i would not be complaining but that frame would weigh as much as steel or titanium frame and Contator & Co would not ride it up hill - not competitive enough. What applies to competitive elite and cat-1 riders does not apply to 95% of other riders who tend to keep their bikes for several years and tend to crash/drop the bikes a few times. it's your satefy.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

I'm sitting on the top tube of my Bianchi 928 T-Cube as I type this. 

Frame seems to be holding up just fine. I do seem to be getting pins and needles in my toes however.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.velonews.com/article/93240/mavic-responds-to-wheel-collapse-article

damage control.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

Inferno218 said:


> *I am going to post some pictures asap*......Oh, and I am on a Cerelo R3 now. No more Orbea for me unless they get straight on the warranty.


Hey Inferno218,
I've been following your story and waiting for some pictures. Have you posted any yet?


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