# Need More Power on Hills!



## vfr

I can ride endurance distances and times good enough to satisfy me and my desires but I really lose power in the hills and slow WAY down compared to other people my weight and age. Logic tells me I need leg muscle strength or something is missing. My nutrition is very good generally speaking. 

Without making this a scientific white paper, do I need to just build up leg muscle, do a decent hill, turn around and do it again and again, or what will help me get up the hills faster with more strength compared to others my weight and age? Very hilly country wears me out much faster than my peers by far. Flat land is no problem. Thanks...


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## cyclesport45

You need more watts (or more watts per unit weight). Yah, riding up hills in an interval format faster than is comfortable will certainly increase your hillclimbing ability. So will losing weight, if you have weight to lose.

Caveat; Some people are great hillclimbers. Some suck. I'm closer to the suck end of the spectrum, but lots of work has made me fantastically mediocre. It depends a lot on size, power output, and muscle type (twitch-wise).


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## Blue CheeseHead

You can help leg strength by doing low cadence hill climbs. Use the hardest gear you can while maintaining 60 RPM. 

You might also check your gearing. If you have the wrong cassette it will punish you on the hills.


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## champamoore

Hard hill intervals hurt, but they build strength/power fast!


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## vfr

Thanks folks. I forget my gearing numbers but it is good for hill climbing and not TDF style time trial racing. I did check that out at my LBS and they said good to go. 

When I distance ride, I don't think I'm getting my HR high enough often enough to build that part of me. I usually ride alone and that doesn't help either knowing that group riding tends to make one push as opposed to riding alone. 

The low cadence, high gear climbing makes sense. I'll either get better or die trying that way. Might try a little weight work on the legs too. I'm told all bike riding and no resistance training isn't good.

Keep it coming. Good stuff here!


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## woodys737

There are entire books written on how to increase power at threshold and beyond. Without writing a paper as you say maybe read "racing And Training With A Power Meter" 2nd ed. by Allen and Coggan.

Other than that it's possible the position you are in on the bike might be contributing to your perceived loss of power on the hills. I say perceived because you compare yourself to peers by age and weight.

Do you actually know whether or not you are losing power when climbing compared to when riding on the flats?


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## vfr

woodys737 said:


> There are entire books written on how to increase power at threshold and beyond. Without writing a paper as you say maybe read "racing And Training With A Power Meter" 2nd ed. by Allen and Coggan.
> 
> Other than that it's possible the position you are in on the bike might be contributing to your perceived loss of power on the hills. I say perceived because you compare yourself to peers by age and weight.
> 
> Do you actually know whether or not you are losing power when climbing compared to when riding on the flats?


No, I don't actually know or haven't measured it. I just know, as in organized rides, others pass me on hills easily regardless of age. I know that isn't a really meaningful illustration but I am towards that back of the pack when in the hills and, considering that I ride at least 150 miles a week (no not huge) I want to get better at climbing. 

Part of the problem is 200 lbs. weight of me at 6' tall. It is a pretty solid 200lbs. but 20 less is where most of my best athletic performance has been. So, there's likely part of the answer and it will come. In the meantime, I'm obviously not a patient "improver". My bike(s) have been professionally fitted and checked without adjustment by more than one LBS and in different cities thru the years. It ain't the bikes.

When something needs to get better, change has to happen. I'm going to try different things but seek all the advice I can get. I understand effort but understand "smart effort" better. thanks.


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## woodys737

vfr said:


> No, I don't actually know or haven't measured it. I just know, as in organized rides, others pass me on hills easily regardless of age. I know that isn't a really meaningful illustration but I am towards that back of the pack when in the hills and, considering that I ride at least 150 miles a week (no not huge) I want to get better at climbing.
> 
> Part of the problem is 200 lbs. weight of me at 6' tall. It is a pretty solid 200lbs. but 20 less is where most of my best athletic performance has been. So, there's likely part of the answer and it will come. In the meantime, I'm obviously not a patient "improver". My bike(s) have been professionally fitted and checked without adjustment by more than one LBS and in different cities thru the years. It ain't the bikes.
> 
> When something needs to get better, change has to happen. I'm going to try different things but seek all the advice I can get. I understand effort but understand "smart effort" better. thanks.


The way I see it you have three options:

1. Train to improve power output. That is saying a lot and can be complex and involved which is why I recommended the book.
2. Lose weight. This in my opinion is what is holding you back the most, is the easiest to change and the cheapest. Dropping weight will only go so far so...
3. Do both 1 and 2.


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## Island Volpe

I am interested in what gearing is "_good to go_". I am a noob that found that hills are doable with the proper gearing. I bought a used cyclocross with a triple crankset (28/38/48 teeth) and 11-32 teeth cassette that worked well and allows for higher cadence climbing. 

About 5 years ago, I gave up on hills on an older, steel, downtube shifter that originally had a triple crankset (52/42/missing inner chainring) because it was just too hard. I recently got a 13-34 teeth cassette for it and the hills are now doable on it too.


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## vfr

Good to go is 52/13, 8 speed cassette with a triple chainring. Me with that gearing climbed Trail Ridge Road 10 years ago without using all the low end gears. The way my family genes are, 10 years doesn't mean what it does with most people. My parents are very seriously athletic at older ages...as in their 80's.

I'm not buying a power meter because I can get it done without one (hard head syndrome). Sounds like woodys737 has the most realistic solutions. The bikes are steel framed, in perfect condition and a new 16# bike doesn't seem to be much of the solution, if any, with a 200# rider. 

I have slow twitch, swim, run, bike forever muscles but I've never really tried to get better on hills. After feeling rather humiliated last Sat. I decided to change what I can change with hill performance. This will no doubt get me out of a repetitive rut, so all the input is appreciated and I look forward to hill killing....or getting killed on them....when hell freezes over.....LOL....


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## aclinjury

honestly, you need to drop 20 lbs


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## 0.2HP

Look at the secoond chart on this page:

Bicycle efficiency and power -- or, why bikes have gears

You need to find out the pedal cadence where you produce maximum power. A little faster or slower and your power will drop.

In the days before power meters the drill was find a hill with a fairly constant grade, that you can ride over and over again. Get a cycle computer with a stop watch function. Ride the hill in different gears and find the one that allows you to get up the fastest (shortest time top to bottom.) Once you find the fastest gear, count off how many pedal strokes (2 strokes per crank revolution) in 5 seconds when climbing the hill at your fastest speed. This is you max power cadence. 

I think you want to train in high gear/low cadence to build muscle to increase power output. When you need to get up a hill as fast as you can, shift to the highest gear you can turn at your max power cadence (watch 5 seconds tick off on the computer and count pedal strokes to check you cadence while riding.) If you can’t hold your cadence you need to downshift to re-gain it.


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## champamoore

vfr said:


> Might try a little weight work on the legs too. I'm told all bike riding and no resistance training isn't good.


I found I gained some significant muscle weight/mass that way last winter, and the new ability to cramp in muscles that didn't previously cramp. So def don't go too heavy with the gym. 

Cycle specific targeted workouts is what I'd suggest more than anything. 

Here are a few hill repeat workouts I've found helpful. First, find a nice 5 minute+ hill that hurts. Please bear in mind that the number of sets you do is a guideline, and that you may need to add additional sets as you get stronger. For reference, see Velominati › The Rules.

A
1) 1 time up all the way at 90 rpm
2) 1 time up at 50 rpm
3) 1 time up at 70rpm
4) 1 time up in the sweetspot until sprinting the last 200m. 
5) Repeat for two more sets.

B
1) Start up the hill at a 9 out of 10 effort for the first 30 seconds. 
2) Spin at 3-4 out of 10 for 60 seconds.
3) Repeat until you reach the top, and return to bottom.
3) Repeat for two more sets.

C (this should only be done on a remote hill that is safe to u-turn on)
1) Attack from the start of the hill and go full bore for 60 seconds
2) Uturn and return to the base of the hill.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 for 9 more sets.

If you do one or the other of these a few times a week, I promise your body will deliver more than they currently do in your pursuit of faster ascents, in a shorter period of time than you might think possible. Just don't forget Rule # 10! 

:thumbsup:


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## vfr

aclinjury said:


> honestly, you need to drop 20 lbs


Honestly, I think that's the majority of the problem. 

Doing it is another "how to" to get around. Like my doctor always says, "burn more calories than you consume". 

At whatever weight I've been at in my life, I was still strong for my weight compared to other athletes doing what I was doing. At 200# on a bicycle, apparently that doesn't apply.

This is all adding up I think. Eat less, eat better, work more, and work differently. Thanks!


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## vfr

champamoore said:


> I found I gained some significant muscle weight/mass that way last winter, and the new ability to cramp in muscles that didn't previously cramp. So def don't go too heavy with the gym.
> 
> Cycle specific targeted workouts is what I'd suggest more than anything.
> 
> Here are a few hill repeat workouts I've found helpful. First, find a nice 5 minute+ hill that hurts. Please bear in mind that the number of sets you do is a guideline, and that you may need to add additional sets as you get stronger. For reference, see Velominati › The Rules.
> 
> A
> 1) 1 time up all the way at 90 rpm
> 2) 1 time up at 50 rpm
> 3) 1 time up at 70rpm
> 4) 1 time up in the sweetspot until sprinting the last 200m.
> 5) Repeat for two more sets.
> 
> B
> 1) Start up the hill at a 9 out of 10 effort for the first 30 seconds.
> 2) Spin at 3-4 out of 10 for 60 seconds.
> 3) Repeat until you reach the top, and return to bottom.
> 3) Repeat for two more sets.
> 
> C (this should only be done on a remote hill that is safe to u-turn on)
> 1) Attack from the start of the hill and go full bore for 60 seconds
> 2) Uturn and return to the base of the hill.
> 3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 for 9 more sets.
> 
> If you do one or the other of these a few times a week, I promise your body will deliver more than they currently do in your pursuit of faster ascents, in a shorter period of time than you might think possible. Just don't forget Rule # 10!
> 
> :thumbsup:


Neat perspectives on velominati. It's only life or death....LOL....


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## vfr

I have to relate this conversation just now with Mrs. vfr. 

I tell her about all the good advice here and that I'm going to lose weight. 

She says: "Why don't you just ride your bike around the neighborhood for 30 or 40 minutes every morning and in two months you'll have the strongest legs in town. You can choose gears and any kind of incline you want on any particular day". We live on a no BS mountain side with everything from slight inclines around the mountain to difficult for a car to go up when going up some streets and everything in between. Don't even have to go a mile from the house!

DUH!!! There's a reason they're called " the better half". I have a lot of work to do, thanks for the help. The bike won't even have to leave the foyer now....heh, heh, heh,........


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## cda 455

vfr said:


> Thanks folks. I forget my gearing numbers but it is good for hill climbing and not TDF style time trial racing. I did check that out at my LBS and they said good to go.
> 
> When I distance ride, I don't think I'm getting my HR high enough often enough to build that part of me. I usually ride alone and that doesn't help either knowing that group riding tends to make one push as opposed to riding alone.
> 
> The low cadence, high gear climbing makes sense. I'll either get better or die trying that way. Might try a little weight work on the legs too. I'm told all bike riding and no resistance training isn't good.
> 
> Keep it coming. Good stuff here!



There is a 5 mile stretch of very hilly road on my 15 mile commute to work. 

When I first started riding it 2.5 years ago my goal was to just get through it. Ride it on granny gears; whatever it took but just finish that section of the ride.

Now, I concentrate on spinning at 75 to 85 RPM at whatever gear I need. Also, on the short but steeper hills I'm out of the saddle 'attacking'. 

I ride it twice a day (Before and after shift), 3X a week.

When I started riding it 2.5 Y.O.: 75 min total ride time.

Currently: 40 to 45 min total ride time.


It's nice that it's on my commute because I have to go through it in order to get to work. 

Biggest tips RBR members gave me when I started riding said route: 

1) Just ride it! Don't worry about anything else.
2) Repeat

Then

3) Concentrate on your spinning.
4) Repeat #1 and add #3 
5) Repeat #4
6) Repeat #5 <---This is where I am now  .

I believe the next step will be:

7) Hill repeats (Intervals).



Off the bike, weight loss greatly helped with the hills.


Another thing I learned was this statement by Greg Lamond is sooooooooo true:

"It doesn't get easier; You just get faster." Rule #10

Riding said route feels about the same when I first started as when I ride it now. It's just the times that are different.


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## champamoore

Enjoy the ride, embrace the pain, and overcome!


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## ericm979

Losing weight will help a lot. But so will working on your threshold power. I don't think that low cadence drills are worth more than doing the same amount of hill repeats.

Besides threshold intervals (do them climbing) you can also do sweet spot intervals. They provide much of the benefit of threshold but with less stress, so you can do more.


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## vfr

Great advice CDA 455 and everyone else. Pain is definitely my companion (that's another story) so sports pain doesn't bother me much. "If you're not hurting you might not be doing anything"...me


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## shnipe

My hill climbs suck but Im a no0b using a 42/25 low. I have intentions on getting setup to a 39/28 but for now i just stand and push harder. Itll make me stronger in the end.


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## vfr

Update....haven't been able to ride much lately so I've been doing some light weight work and rode today in hills. Only rode 20 miles but the hills are significant. This is my ride when I don't have much time and can ride it with my eyes closed I know the route so well. 

Apparently, the rest from not riding and the weight work helped significantly because I set an average speed record on that little sprint. I just didn't "give" myself as much gear to climb and didn't downshift as soon as in the past. 

None of the above involves a dramatic change other than significant improvement in avg. speed. I also believe a lot of it is the mental factor. I just decided I was going to up the power and it wouldn't be a big deal and, low and behold, it wasn't. I've also begun cleaning up the diet to lose weight so it'll all work out. I suspect as I keep improving on this frequent little ride, the endurance at less than sprint-like speeds will be improving also. I'll find out.


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## Bizman

Stand up all the time, ride in the highest gear all the time, and don't stop pedaling for as much of your ride (if not all of it) that you can take including downhills! Eventually you will be able to keep a fast pace, make yourself do it, take control of your mental capacity, it won't be easy!

If the hill gets to steep for the higher gear go down to the gear that suits, but don't sit down or stop pedaling for any reason. Do this in small steps (1 mi, 2 mi, etc) and it will get easier, well, you will faster, it will still hurt. Practice supporting your body with your legs and core body strength, focus on breathing and keeping your upper body and arms relaxed.

Ride everyday consistently, not always long distance, just make yourself get on that bike everyday! everyday!


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## OldZaskar

Doing hill repeats is NOT the solution to doing better on hills (climbing) - as you describe the problem. Hill repeats will increase your ability to attack, counter an attack, sprint... and then recover quickly. 

As others - and you - have eluded.... it's mostly a weight thing. Big riders do well on the flats - you're not fighting gravity. You're fighting wind. Your wind profile is lower relative to your weight AND your power is greater than the equally fit 170lb rider. But when you hit the hills... the scale (pun intended) tilts against you. 

I'd focus on a few things
- The obvious: drop a few pounds. 
- Spin a bit more
- Isolate your upper body (conserve energy). Try this on your next long/hard climb: Relax your shoulders, put your hands on the top of the bar - not the hoods; hang your hands with fingers open, elbows in... Doing this forces a couple things: 1. You have to disengage your upper body ('cause you're not holding on), that forces you to (2) pedal smoothly, without stomping the pedals ('cause you can't counter the pedal stroke with the tug on the bar).


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## vfr

OldZaskar said:


> Doing hill repeats is NOT the solution to doing better on hills (climbing) - as you describe the problem. Hill repeats will increase your ability to attack, counter an attack, sprint... and then recover quickly.
> 
> As others - and you - have eluded.... it's mostly a weight thing. Big riders do well on the flats - you're not fighting gravity. You're fighting wind. Your wind profile is lower relative to your weight AND your power is greater than the equally fit 170lb rider. But when you hit the hills... the scale (pun intended) tilts against you.
> 
> I'd focus on a few things
> - The obvious: drop a few pounds.
> - Spin a bit more
> - Isolate your upper body (conserve energy). Try this on your next long/hard climb: Relax your shoulders, put your hands on the top of the bar - not the hoods; hang your hands with fingers open, elbows in... Doing this forces a couple things: 1. You have to disengage your upper body ('cause you're not holding on), that forces you to (2) pedal smoothly, without stomping the pedals ('cause you can't counter the pedal stroke with the tug on the bar).


Good ideas, thanks. The weight loss has begun and that is the biggest challenge right now. Too many years of eating habits is not easy to change. If I can do that the bike work will seem easy. When I get to my target weight by losing 20 pounds, that will be what I weighed in college sports. I should be a "ruthless killer" again in sports activities. The work on the bike isn't as big a mental challenge as losing the weight. But I'll get it done then find something else to work on. I don't relax on the hills so your idea should be interesting to try.


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## OldZaskar

vrf... I've also found that as much as I can "mechanize" the action, the easier it is to gut it out. For example: My max HR is 182. I know (from tracking HR for a couple years) I can sustain a 168-170 avg. for two hours. That's full-on race-level suffering. I also know that much time over 173 is burning the proverbial matches FAST. 

Yesterday we did some climbing (3,940') and a couple of those climbs were short at steep. One in particular was 4 miles long with the steepest grade around 11%. I "set" my heart rate at 175 and matched my cadence (60-90) and gears (lowest three gears throughout the climb) to maintain that HR. I didn't sit on anyone's wheel, nor did I chase anyone down. In my head, I was on autopilot, knowing I was at my max for that time period. It's pretty cool how long you can suffer when you know it's "okay", e.g. you're within your range. And, the suffering is surprisingly low, because you're not fighting that internal fight - "Ugh, this sucks, slow down... No go harder... you're going too hard... "

Does ^that^ make sense?


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## shnipe

shnipe said:


> My hill climbs suck but Im a no0b using a 42/25 low. I have intentions on getting setup to a 39/28 but for now i just stand and push harder. Itll make me stronger in the end.


This is where im at right now. I MTB often enough that intervals are a natural part of riding dirt. I have threatened to start intervals and hill repeats on the RB but havent yet


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## vfr

OldZaskar said:


> vrf... I've also found that as much as I can "mechanize" the action, the easier it is to gut it out. For example: My max HR is 182. I know (from tracking HR for a couple years) I can sustain a 168-170 avg. for two hours. That's full-on race-level suffering. I also know that much time over 173 is burning the proverbial matches FAST.
> 
> Yesterday we did some climbing (3,940') and a couple of those climbs were short at steep. One in particular was 4 miles long with the steepest grade around 11%. I "set" my heart rate at 175 and matched my cadence (60-90) and gears (lowest three gears throughout the climb) to maintain that HR. I didn't sit on anyone's wheel, nor did I chase anyone down. In my head, I was on autopilot, knowing I was at my max for that time period. It's pretty cool how long you can suffer when you know it's "okay", e.g. you're within your range. And, the suffering is surprisingly low, because you're not fighting that internal fight - "Ugh, this sucks, slow down... No go harder... you're going too hard... "
> 
> Does ^that^ make sense?


My max HR is 182 also. I can also maintain 168 to 170 for 2 hours but don't think I really benefit from that when riding at that level every ride. I think I tend to ride too far at too high a HR level and pay for it for too long in recovery. I can take the pain but that doesn't mean it's a good thing I think. 

I am making progress on hills by using some of the techniques mentioned on this thread. I have the mentality that I'm always riding a "life or death" race against something and don't think that necessarily enhances my ability to get better. I'm always tearing up my body too hard and need to just ride and "tear it up" less often than every freaking time. Those are my thoughts on that right now. Thanks for the input.


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## champamoore

Rest(!) and *recovery* rides are just about as important as anything in helping you grow stronger. I share the tendency to go hard, though, so can understand the fight (not to fight) very well.


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## marathon marke

OldZaskar said:


> - Isolate your upper body (conserve energy). Try this on your next long/hard climb: Relax your shoulders, put your hands on the top of the bar - not the hoods; hang your hands with fingers open, elbows in... Doing this forces a couple things: 1. You have to disengage your upper body ('cause you're not holding on), that forces you to (2) pedal smoothly, without stomping the pedals ('cause you can't counter the pedal stroke with the tug on the bar).


VERY good advice. I think this can even be applied when long rides into a headwind. This technique allows you to engage ALL your core muscles, which makes that smooth spin easier to maintain.


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## Bizman

champamoore said:


> Rest(!) and *recovery* rides are just about as important as anything in helping you grow stronger. I share the tendency to go hard, though, so can understand the fight (not to fight) very well.


I can share your thoughts about not pushing so hard everyday, it is hard not to do. On the other hand I look at it at this way, I am doing this for 80 minutes (average) per day. In round figures I have 22 1/2 hours to recover, and I am ready to do it again the next day. If my body tells me to go easier I will, but once I get going it is hard not to ride strong the whole ride.


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## QED

OldZaskar said:


> - Isolate your upper body (conserve energy). Try this on your next long/hard climb: Relax your shoulders, put your hands on the top of the bar - not the hoods; hang your hands with fingers open, elbows in... Doing this forces a couple things: 1. You have to disengage your upper body ('cause you're not holding on), that forces you to (2) pedal smoothly, without stomping the pedals ('cause you can't counter the pedal stroke with the tug on the bar).


Very good advice. When I got into mountain biking, I got different advice about hills from men and women. When I rode with men (I am a woman), they would tell me "pedal, pedal, pedal" and my hills never seemed to get better no matter how hard I pedaled. Then I rode with a group of incredibly talented women who gave me this advice, "_roll your wrists back, bring your elbows in, and get your boobs to the bar (handlebar)". _I never forgot it. It seems to work in road biking for me as well. It accomplishes what OldZaskar is suggesting, keeps you from holding on and disengages your upper body making you use your core and the big muscles in your legs where your power is.


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## cda 455

QED said:


> Very good advice. When I got into mountain biking, I got different advice about hills from men and women. When I rode with men (I am a woman), they would tell me "pedal, pedal, pedal" and my hills never seemed to get better no matter how hard I pedaled. Then I rode with a group of incredibly talented women who gave me this advice, "_roll your wrists back, bring your elbows in, and* get your boobs to the bar (handlebar)*". _I never forgot it. It seems to work in road biking for me as well. It accomplishes what OldZaskar is suggesting, keeps you from holding on and disengages your upper body making you use your core and the big muscles in your legs where your power is.



Are you saying to lean way forward?


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## QED

cda 455 said:


> Are you saying to lean way forward?


Not really. I am a girl, pushing my boobs in the direction of the handlebars makes me push my shoulders down and back (away from my ears, in essence relaxing them) and gets my upper body and chest open increasing lung capacity.


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## vfr

UPDATE!! I'm much stronger and faster on the hills and my average mph is higher on all of my repetitive ride routes. I attribute that to form, attention to spinning technique, and will-power. HOWEVER, I haven't lost a freaking pound but the inches are fewer on my waist. I have been doing core body strengthening (highly recommended) and some light upper body work and I think it helps more than any weight/resistance work I've ever done. 

I haven't given up on the weight and one way or another, it will come down. Last night, my better half cooked a meatloaf with the grossest quality of ground meat we've ever had. We threw it out and decided we will eat no more beef and less meat period. The only thing constant is change........


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## Slow but old

Good to have a smart wife.


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## itsmebusyguy

lots of great suggestions on this thread; very helpful to me too (suck at climbing). great thread.


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## Gnarly 928

The weight HAS to come off if you plan to ride the climbs faster. You can say anything you want, train hard, change bikes wheels, buy all Assos clothing, whatever.....but even at 180lbs you are going to be handicapped against lighter riders. 180lbs, while it may have been your college sports weight....that is still quite heavy for a cyclist who desires to go fast on the climbs.

Say what you will, there is no fooling gravity. Heavier = slower when climbing. 

The weight thing, it can be taken too far...Over the years of racing and training I've come to find my 'minimum weight' to be about 165lbs (at 6'1")...If I reduce my weight below that I begin to get sick more often and I don't recover from hard efforts quickly. It takes a lot of concentrated training to get "too light"...not many riders really ever do it...but in my years-long attempt to 'become a decent climber' I did do that one year (I was obsessed!) and learned I should stay around 165-175 in order to ride at my best overall.

My climbing is 'medium-slow' at best. I love climbs, I don't fear them. I stick my HR at about 90% and let loose of the pain...but lighter better climbers still leave me behind on the longer steeper climbs.

When I let myself get 'over weight' by even 5-10lbs, which I often do in the fall when I take a month or so off from riding, I pay! It hurts to lose that extra weight, but until I do all the climbs I ride I simply can't ride as quickly as I should....Gravity doesn't care whether I had a month off.....It only knows I weigh 10lbs more....so it says..."10lbs = 10mins on my favorite uphill...a 3700' 11 mile pass....


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## The Human G-Nome

Blue CheeseHead said:


> You can help leg strength by doing low cadence hill climbs. Use the hardest gear you can while maintaining 60 RPM.
> 
> You might also check your gearing. If you have the wrong cassette it will punish you on the hills.


Interesting that this advice contradicts itself. On the one hand you recommend doing low cadence drills, and then you say that maybe the gearing is too difficult and punishing? Hmmmmm.



Bizman said:


> Stand up all the time, ride in the highest gear all the time, and don't stop pedaling for as much of your ride (if not all of it) that you can take including downhills! Eventually you will be able to keep a fast pace, make yourself do it, take control of your mental capacity, it won't be easy!
> 
> If the hill gets to steep for the higher gear go down to the gear that suits, but don't sit down or stop pedaling for any reason. Do this in small steps (1 mi, 2 mi, etc) and it will get easier, well, you will faster, it will still hurt. Practice supporting your body with your legs and core body strength, focus on breathing and keeping your upper body and arms relaxed.
> 
> Ride everyday consistently, not always long distance, just make yourself get on that bike everyday! everyday!


This is great advice. You have to climb in every way possible, and you have to climb often. "Don't upgrade, ride up grades" didn't become a cliche cycling quote for nothing. If you ride up grades a lot, you will get faster riding up those grades.



OldZaskar said:


> Doing hill repeats is NOT the solution to doing better on hills (climbing) - as you describe the problem. Hill repeats will increase your ability to attack, counter an attack, sprint... and then recover quickly.
> 
> As others - and you - have eluded.... it's mostly a weight thing. Big riders do well on the flats - you're not fighting gravity. You're fighting wind. Your wind profile is lower relative to your weight AND your power is greater than the equally fit 170lb rider. But when you hit the hills... the scale (pun intended) tilts against you.


Hill repeats are the best solution for doing better on hills. A hill repeat could mean 2 minutes, or it could mean 45 minutes if the climb is long enough. I climb Mt. Tam 5 times on some Saturdays, and this does make me a faster climber. Also, there a lot of heavy riders who can climb well, and a lot of light riders who can't. Weight means a ton, but if you're not otherwise efficient then the weight issue will be rendered rather meaningless. 



Gnarly 928 said:


> The weight HAS to come off if you plan to ride the climbs faster. You can say anything you want, train hard, change bikes wheels, buy all Assos clothing, whatever.....but even at 180lbs you are going to be handicapped against lighter riders. 180lbs, while it may have been your college sports weight....that is still quite heavy for a cyclist who desires to go fast on the climbs.
> 
> Say what you will, there is no fooling gravity. Heavier = slower when climbing.


Can't argue with that. In general, light riders climb better. Still, even as a heavier cyclist, you can still develop techniques to allow you to climb much more efficiently. I have heard people mention intervals and hill reps, but they are most often recommending them at intense levels of effort. I haven't heard anyone recommend low heartrate climbing which, for me, has been a godsend and a "secret training weapon" if you will. Zone 2 climbing in the off-season is huge for me. If I can put in over 8,000 feet on a Saturday, but all in Zone 2, I am so much fresher for my harder intervals during the week, but my body has still been acclimating well to climbing. We had a coach once that had us on a steady diet of Zone 2 climbing for an entire off-season, and he would make you go even slower if you broke the rules. 

Also, like others have mentioned, climb in every way possible. Big gear/little gear hill reps are really nice. Spin in your easiest gear for a 5 minute rep, and then the next time up throw it in the big ring for the whole way. Alternate back and forth for 6 reps total. Also, do some all big gear out-of-the-saddle climbing, especially for an extended climb over 15 minutes. This also really tends to work your core, and if you're work a climb like this in just once a week, you will definitely notice improvements.


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## Unkown

Ride with someone who climbs faster than you and fight to stay on his/her wheel as if your life depended on it.


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## vfr

The whole scenario MAY have changed, for the better, since I had a heart attack while riding on Oct. 20th. Felt strange the whole ride but, like a lot of guys, just toughed it out, came home, took a shower then decided to go to the ER and then the drama started. I'm in better shape now than before. I now have a stint in one of my arteries and feel much more energetic and maybe a little bit meaner ; ). So there was part of the problem.

With the diet (what everyone should be eating) they have me on, the weight is falling off pretty quick. Only had a chance to ride once since the event due to weather but I'm getting more exercise in general than before. On the one ride, I did have more power and speed but didn't really push it due Dr. orders. I expect to be able to improve more significantly now as I ease it back up. 

So, there's never a dull moment and all the advise is appreciated. As it is warm enough, (like this coming weekend), I intend to ride just as before. The Drs. are able to tell me what happened but not why (it was just an event that can happen to most anyone and my number was the one up that day). One of the Drs. is at Vanderbilt and is probably one of the best in the country. One thing I learned is that it can happen to just about anyone and that lack of family heart history, decent diet, and plenty of exercise does not at all exempt anyone from having a heart attack. At most, I was 15# over healthy weight for my size. Happy riding......


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## kmak

vfr said:


> The whole scenario MAY have changed, for the better, since I had a heart attack while riding on Oct. 20th. Felt strange the whole ride but, like a lot of guys, just toughed it out, came home, took a shower then decided to go to the ER and then the drama started. I'm in better shape now than before. I now have a stint in one of my arteries and feel much more energetic and maybe a little bit meaner ; ). So there was part of the problem.
> 
> With the diet (what everyone should be eating) they have me on, the weight is falling off pretty quick. Only had a chance to ride once since the event due to weather but I'm getting more exercise in general than before. On the one ride, I did have more power and speed but didn't really push it due Dr. orders. I expect to be able to improve more significantly now as I ease it back up.
> 
> So, there's never a dull moment and all the advise is appreciated. As it is warm enough, (like this coming weekend), I intend to ride just as before. The Drs. are able to tell me what happened but not why (it was just an event that can happen to most anyone and my number was the one up that day). One of the Drs. is at Vanderbilt and is probably one of the best in the country. One thing I learned is that it can happen to just about anyone and that lack of family heart history, decent diet, and plenty of exercise does not at all exempt anyone from having a heart attack. At most, I was 15# over healthy weight for my size. Happy riding......


Gosh, scary, but good news. What is the diet?


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## vfr

The diet is the same that everyone should be on. Low sodium, low fat, low carbs, low cholesterol, moderate alcohol. Lots of fruits and vegetables. Drink a lot of water during the day. Exercise at least 30 minutes 7 days a week and yes, when riding continue to replace electrolytes and consume carbs and protein in accordance with activity but not more than "needed". Do all of that and your weight will get where it should be. That's about it. 

Yeah, it was a little scary because it can and will happen to people that least expect it....like me. Two doctors told me this happens to triathletes and marathon runners every day of the week and they're all "in good shape". Bottom line is everyone has plaque and they don't know what caused it to break loose from the artery walls and block an artery. The cardiologist that did the procedure said he has no doubt that if he had run a catheter in me the day before that he would have found plaque but wouldn't have put in a stent. 

An interesting thing was a study one cardiologist told me about that took place during the Viet Nam "conflict". There was a very significant study done on a large population of 18 y. o. KIA's and the amount of plaque found in their arteries was shocking to them at the time. He said that if the same study were done today, it would be worse. So, happy eating and riding.......

I still plan to get stronger on the hills. Based on how I feel, weight already lost, and power experienced during the one and only ride since, I think it will happen. I'll find out more this weekend when it will be warmer riding.


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## Srode

The diet sounds like what I am on for the most part, been that way for years. Glad to hear you found the problem the not so hard way. Curious if you had your cholesterol level checked prior and what it was, if you don't mind sharing.


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## vfr

Srode said:


> The diet sounds like what I am on for the most part, been that way for years. Glad to hear you found the problem the not so hard way. Curious if you had your cholesterol level checked prior and what it was, if you don't mind sharing.


My cholesterol combined ran around 140 and I was and still am taking Crestor. At one time, that was a good number but they like to see it lower now. 

The consensus is that statin drugs are only accomplish anything other than lower cholesterol in about 5% of the people they are prescribed to. This comes from articles I've read and my daughter who is a medical care provider. She told me statins are prescribed as a matter of protocol (to avoid malpractice issues). That circles around to what I said.....many times they know what but not why. Go through all of this and you'll learn how common heart procedures are. It's easy to look at some people and understand why but certainly not everyone.


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## Crimecrusher

Loose wieght, more interval training on hills riding bigger gears.


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## vfr

Crimecrusher said:


> Loose wieght, more interval training on hills riding bigger gears.


All three are in the works. I think you pretty much summed it up. Proper rest and nutrition help also I know from experience.


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## jackkane

Blue CheeseHead said:


> You can help leg strength by doing low cadence hill climbs. Use the hardest gear you can while maintaining 60 RPM.
> 
> You might also check your gearing. If you have the wrong cassette it will punish you on the hills.


I'll try this thanks


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## The Human G-Nome

jackkane said:


> I'll try this thanks


BCH makes a good recommendation. That said, if you're not used to doing low cadence, big gear work in the hills, do be careful and conscious of what you're doing. If your fit is wrong, or your shoes are uncomfortable, or your position on the bike is off, you could end up paying a big price later in the form of knee issues. So, they're fine to do, but monitor yourself along the way, and especially, after the first workouts you complete.

A lot of people take to alternating their hill reps between high cadence spinning, and low cadence mashing as well so just try what seems to work for you and remember to be cautious.


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## vfr

The Human G-Nome said:


> BCH makes a good recommendation. That said, if you're not used to doing low cadence, big gear work in the hills, do be careful and conscious of what you're doing. If your fit is wrong, or your shoes are uncomfortable, or your position on the bike is off, you could end up paying a big price later in the form of knee issues. So, they're fine to do, but monitor yourself along the way, and especially, after the first workouts you complete.
> 
> A lot of people take to alternating their hill reps between high cadence spinning, and low cadence mashing as well so just try what seems to work for you and remember to be cautious.


To your point, I have experienced mild knee pain after riding hills in big gears. I thought if it was mild, it can and will get worse if I continued in the big gears all of the time up hills. Accordingly, I don't do this regularly. I mix it up now. 

After the heart drama, my riding approach is changing for the better...for me anyway. I'm more concerned with riding for enjoyment, health and distance than speed. I still compete with myself but there's nothing like going through the "big event", feeling better afterwards, and re-thinking the whole riding thing.

One thing I know is that a lot of riders that think they're healthy are going to have unexpected heart events. Start visiting cardiologists and you'll learn how much isn't known about the whys and wherefores of the heart. One cardiologist told me the reason he chose that specialty is that there is more research going on with the heart than most any other health issue (excluding cancer) and he likes to keep up with it and use it to help his patients. Gotta love a guy like that. Then there are those heartless people.....LOL....


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## The Human G-Nome

vfr said:


> To your point, I have experienced mild knee pain after riding hills in big gears. I thought if it was mild, it can and will get worse if I continued in the big gears all of the time up hills. Accordingly, I don't do this regularly. I mix it up now.
> 
> After the heart drama, my riding approach is changing for the better...for me anyway. I'm more concerned with riding for enjoyment, health and distance than speed. I still compete with myself but there's nothing like going through the "big event", feeling better afterwards, and re-thinking the whole riding thing.
> 
> One thing I know is that a lot of riders that think they're healthy are going to have unexpected heart events. Start visiting cardiologists and you'll learn how much isn't known about the whys and wherefores of the heart. One cardiologist told me the reason he chose that specialty is that there is more research going on with the heart than most any other health issue (excluding cancer) and he likes to keep up with it and use it to help his patients. Gotta love a guy like that. Then there are those heartless people.....LOL....


I think a tiny bit of knee soreness can sometimes just be a matter of your ligaments pulling on your kneecap because your muscles are so tight from the effort you put in. If your knee pain lingers, however, then yes you might have a problem. 

No doubt, it pays to listen to your body. You should be surveying what you feel like after every ride, and for the days that follow after a hard effort. People tend to make a great habit of checking their bike, checking the tires, the wheels and spokes, the drivetrain, etc. for any abnormalities or excessive signs of wear.. but then they neglect to really check on the most important part of riding a bike- the engine. 

If you're coming back from your hard Saturday effort, and you're so wiped that you can barely function, there's a fair to good chance that you've over done it. If you race, sometimes that going to be unavoidable, but it shouldn't be a consistent weekend habit. This may be a sign that you never developed the kind of base that would allow you to ultimately avoid pain and injury, and that maybe you should be laying off a little and then reinvesting in that base.

Even during the season, I have plenty of Saturdays where spending 6 hours in Zone 1/2. I can reserve my more intense efforts for my short stints on weekdays instead and still be just as fast. In fact, perhaps even faster still because I'm not burnt to toast from my weekend, and I'm able to make the efforts count more.


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## LostViking

Lots of good info here. I'm a bigger guy 6ft4 and 225lbs so I know I seriously need to lose some wieght to improve my climbing - which sucks at the moment.

But I also live in an area that is pretty much pancake flat - so my chance for "real-life" hillclimbing practice are not good.

Still, this remains one of my improvement goals as well.


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## vfr

I'm finding that while losing weight, it's hard to maintain the power and stamina. I expect that once I stabilize, the strength will solidify for lack of a better way to put it.


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## bryon

vfr what part of TN you live in. I saw that you were seeking care at Vandy. I am down in Winchester myself. In the shadows of Monteagle. I can ride 30 miles with less then 1k elevation for can do 30 miles with over 3k elevation. I also suffer on climbs, but at 280lbs thats expected.


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## vfr

bryon said:


> vfr what part of TN you live in. I saw that you were seeking care at Vandy. I am down in Winchester myself. In the shadows of Monteagle. I can ride 30 miles with less then 1k elevation for can do 30 miles with over 3k elevation. I also suffer on climbs, but at 280lbs thats expected.


My wife is getting care at Vanderbilt. I don't live in Tennessee, I live in The Rocket City. I know your area well from riding motorcycles. Monteagle is a real kick to ride in the twisties. I rode in a damned full blown gale force wind Saturday for 33 miles and did pretty well so maybe I'm coming back with power. I just decided to continue eating right, keep riding, and the pace will be what it will be. Riding is supposed to be fun....at least for me.


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## bryon

Rocket City is even closer to me. Not sur ewhat you are doing now to help you along, but I have found if I keep my cadence up over 75 I can climb alittle faster. When you are out riding try this out. Focus on drive your knee up into your chest on the up stroke of you pedal stroke. It makes a difference for me allows me to power through more.


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## vfr

bryon said:


> Rocket City is even closer to me. Not sur ewhat you are doing now to help you along, but I have found if I keep my cadence up over 75 I can climb alittle faster. When you are out riding try this out. Focus on drive your knee up into your chest on the up stroke of you pedal stroke. It makes a difference for me allows me to power through more.


Thank you Bryon. Lately, I have been gearing down a bit more than normal (higher cadence) as I'm deliberately not "knocking myself out" as I improve my conditioning. I haven't been able to ride as much due to weather, etc. 

I am paying very careful attention to my pedal stroke because I have a tendency to get sloppy (inefficient) when I get tired. So, when I pay attention to proper pedal stroke, I don't get tired as quick...duh. I have lost 12 pounds without losing strength I've concluded so the hospital recommended heart healthy diet is really cool. In simple terms, it is....lower fat, lower sodium, and don't drink much alcohol which I didn't anyway. We've also lowered meat consumption. My latest bloodwork-up shows the lowest cholesterol I've ever measured and everything else that can be improved has. And, with the cleaned up diet, my wife has lost weight, improved her A1C (she's a type 2 diabetic), and she's lost weight. All of this and now we can't stand to eat "comfort" food anymore we both feel so much better. 
So, all is good. Thanks for all the input!


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