# Sad day for cycling



## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The moderator will probably move this thread to the Pro Cycling forum, but I think the latest drug scandal on the eve of the Tour de France is of broader significance. I find it really sad more than anything. I am not a huge sports fan, but really follow Le Tour every year. I was really look forward to this year's race because of its wide-open nature with Lance retired. Now Bass, Ullrich and many other favorites apparently are out. A sad day for cycling. Hopefully it will make the sport stronger in the longrun, but I am skeptical. So much money and fame involved that many apparently can resist the urge to cheat and potentially destroy their health. Very sad.


----------



## SuperB (Jul 1, 2004)

I'm with you...I follow the TdF pretty religiously every year. I typically tape the OLN coverage during the day and watch at night. I try to catch every stage if I'm able. I awoke this morning to this shocking news that the Tour favorites have been pulled. I just wonder what type of evidence they have agains these guys. In baseball, football, etc., anything short of a failed drug test would not result in a suspension. I just wonder,maybe naively, if any of these guys (especially Basso and Ullrich) might, in fact, be innocent of the charges. If not, then this sport really has a tremendous problem. It may be a long time before we can trust any riders.


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*I agree it is a shame but not a suprise.*

The only suprise to me is that they (pro racers) got away with doping for so long. It has been an open secret for as long as I have followed pro racing that the peleton is "A rolling medical experiment on wheels." I don't really doubt that almost all pro racers push the rules just as far as they think thay can which is just a bit too far. OTOH pros are racing for the money and glory, not for the pure pleasure of riding-their loss.

Now for a question; just how did Mr. Armstrong beat all those proven and suspected dopers for so many years? Hmmmmmmmmmm...........................


----------



## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

MB1 said:


> Now for a question; just how did Mr. Armstrong beat all those proven and suspected dopers for so many years? Hmmmmmmmmmm...........................


Precisely where my thoughts turned this morning. Since we seem to have less and less people getting caught by testing, and more and more being caught by association, clearly the masking agents are ahead of the tests.

But relative to LA, I think there are a couple of possibilities -

1) He's clean and he was stronger than they were due to his oddball physiology
2) Discovery keeps their doping program in-house and thus no likelihood of being exposed when a 2nd party gets nailed (Operation Puerto)
3) He used a prepatore that hasn't been caught or one that is smart enough not to label his blood bags "Lance"


----------



## croswell1 (Feb 19, 2005)

*Sad day for cycling??............*

I dont really think so. Humans, by nature love a scandal and the media will milk it for all it's worth (they always have). With basso and Jan out of the race (if it's true), then I look for George to take it. Is it right for athletes to use performance enhansing drugs? Hell no it's not, but will pro cycling sell in the Tour DeFrance?.......you damn right it will. It's about "winners and losers", "villains and heroes", and the media will play this out like a hitchcock thriller.

~ jmo


----------



## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

It's sad, but on the other hand, kicking top riders out of the TDF is a lot more slap in the face than slap on the wrist. This also hits them in the wallet.


----------



## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Not sad, a great day for cycling...*

our sport will now be clean of these theives. I'm not sad, I'm elated that we are getting rid of these guys who have been lying all these years. The competition will be so much better, the excitement, the unpredictability. I say lets celebrate!!!  

The sad part is basically, that we were all misled and the youth coming in our sport have been let down.


----------



## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

It's a little naive to think the sport will now be clean. Cleaner, probably. Clean, probably not.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*great day*

The clean up has started but will never be complete. HOWEVER, the names and their status are definitely putting a spin on this that to be honest, I enjoy. The doping will never ever go away, but wow, I m so stoked to see this go down with these folks. Let the heads roll.....


----------



## 555Rider (Jan 13, 2006)

*A great day? sort of...but also very sad day...*

It's too bad that the only news that most non-cyclist hear about the sport beyond Lance Armstrong is doping. Bruyneel talks about the possible troubles teams could run into with sponsors if this sort of thing continues. Just read this at the Daily Spin 

*Bruyneel bearish on TDF doping situation *

Bullish on Discovery Channel's Tour chances 

Cyclingnews caught up with Discovery Channel's sports manager Johan Bruyneel after his team returned from the Tour de France medical checks at the Tour HQ in Strasbourg. Rumours were flying and we asked Bruyneel for his take on the situation with Operacion Puerto. "Definitely what has happened in Spain (with Operacion Puerto) is probably the biggest doping scandal in cycling and maybe even in sports ever," explained Bruyneel. "Much more than the Festina affair in 1998. And everyday, people are aware as it becomes bigger and bigger and it's definitely damaging the sport of cycling. There's been a lot of damage done already but it's getting so big that cycling is losing credibility. When people like the UCI, teams, our sponsors who are not implicated (in Operacion Puerto) start to have the impression that this is damaging their image, that is something else. That's a serious problem for cycling. It's a big deal." 

Get Bruyneel's full reaction @ Cyclingnews


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

I said this in the Pro cycling forum and I will repeat it here.

The Spanish investigation is just that, Spanish. And it appears to be an investigation of only one Doctor and his clinic.

So all of the "clean" riders who are still racing in the Tour, all the "clean" riders whose names were not on the list of 58 are riders who did not go that clinic, or that Doctor, or that country for their "performance counselling".

Anyone whose doctor is in Italy, or Denmark, or the USA or Brazil or wherever, is according to today's news - "clean".

I think not.


----------



## aliensporebomb (Jul 2, 2002)

When I first was told about this, just this morning I thought it was some kind of joke.

I'm rapidly realizing it's become sort of a witch-hunt but at the same time rather 
shocking nonetheless. This is bigger than the whole Festina deal from '97.

I also couldn't help but notice Tyler Hamilton's name on the doctors list but 
you wonder if this isn't some kind of way to clear the field for some riders 
that in some way benefits the Spanish.


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

aliensporebomb said:


> you wonder if this isn't some kind of way to clear the field for some riders that in some way benefits the Spanish.


Don't think so - Spanish law enforcement just manned up this one and has set an example that other nations should follow.


----------



## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

Well I'm really, really disappointed about the whole thing. Not necessarily surprised, but really disappointed. I was personally looking forward to seeing these guys duke it out in the Tour this year.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Perhaps it's a sad day and also a great day.


----------



## thinkcooper (Jan 5, 2005)

*from wikipedia*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_hunt

"A witch-hunt was traditionally a search for witches or evidence of witchcraft, which could lead to a witchcraft trial involving the accused person. Today such events are recognised as a type of moral panic. Witchhunts still occur in the modern era, in many and various communities where religious values condemn the practice of witchcraft and the occult. On a general basis, the term may also denote the persecution of a perceived enemy (commonly socially non-conformist groups) with extreme prejudice and disregard of actual guilt or innocence."

Hmmm, I wonder what's on the rodeo channel the next three weeks...


----------



## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

*It's all Armstrong's fault*

If Armstrong wouldn't have been so damn good, the other riders wouldn't have been "forced" to "dope up". All in all, I could give a rat's behind if they decided to shut down the Tour this year. I've got my own riding and racing to be concerned about, and really don't have to worry if the other riders I'm lining up against, are "doped up" or not. In the short term, this will hurt cycling, and will cause a slight drop-off in new junior racers. In the long run, it can't but help cycling.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I might be mistaken but Spain has easier laws regarding getting caught with drugs than either France or Italy. I think that's why a lot of these guys went to Spain for their drugs.
There was less of a chance of getting thrown in jail vs getting caught in France or Italy.


----------



## PAZ71 (Sep 26, 2005)

terry b said:


> 2) Discovery keeps their doping program in-house and thus no likelihood of being exposed when a 2nd party gets nailed (Operation Puerto)
> QUOTE]
> 
> I thought it was somewhat interesting that there weren't any Disco boys on the list. For the number of big teams that got hit, odds are that Disco should have had at least 1 rider go down. The Discovery Channel will probably make a reality series in the vein of Modern Marvels as to how they stay one step ahead of the testing technology.


----------



## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

Does anyone have a link to the most up-to-date list of riders that have been pulled from the Tour? I can't seem to find this info.


----------



## captainkurt99 (Mar 15, 2006)

BenWA said:


> Does anyone have a link to the most up-to-date list of riders that have been pulled from the Tour? I can't seem to find this info.


Here you go http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2211


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

BenWA said:


> Does anyone have a link to the most up-to-date list of riders that have been pulled from the Tour? I can't seem to find this info.


cyclingnews.com seems to be refreshing the most often.


----------



## Allez Rouge (Jan 1, 1970)

BenWA said:


> Does anyone have a link to the most up-to-date list of riders that have been pulled from the Tour? I can't seem to find this info.


According to the latest report that I've seen (emphasis on _that I've seen_), from cyclingnews.com, these nine riders are out ... 

Sergio Paulinho
Isidro Nozal
Allan Davis
Alberto Contador
Joseba Beloki
Francisco Mancebo
Ivan Basso
Jan Ullrich
Oscar Sevilla

... but of course there are still many more on The List who might yet get the boot.


----------



## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*Yeah, look at the rest of the world.*



mohair_chair said:


> It's a little naive to think the sport will now be clean. Cleaner, probably. Clean, probably not.


****** to get it up, estrogen to keep it wet, cortico-steroids for complexions... performance enhancing drugs abound in every day life. Given the choice between watching 100% natural athletes and chemically improved athletes, who do you think people will watch? Fans of body building have made their choice where the all natural competitors are as about as popular as age group athletes. My bet goes to people watching whoever hits hardest or furthest, jumps highest or goes fastest. It ain't right, in my mind, but money talks and the athletes who listen aren't the villains.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*oh yes they are*



rusa1586 said:


> ****** to get it up, estrogen to keep it wet, cortico-steroids for complexions... performance enhancing drugs abound in every day life. Given the choice between watching 100% natural athletes and chemically improved athletes, who do you think people will watch? Fans of body building have made their choice where the all natural competitors are as about as popular as age group athletes. My bet goes to people watching whoever hits hardest or furthest, jumps highest or goes fastest. It ain't right, in my mind, but money talks and the athletes who listen aren't the villains.


Money talks, no doubt. BUT, these folks are whiners, dopers who got caught and they are big names. The athlete takes the drug so the athlete can perform better. The song and dance about how society is unfair and my mother beat me with a cklaw hammer hence I dope routine is p!ssing up a rope. I hope we have many many more days just like today. In fact, I plan to party like its 1999 tonight. The TDF is still going on and as far a I can see, some person had the nads to say bag it and ride on sonny. 

BE RESPONSIBLE< ADMIT IT AND MOVE THE FVCK ON. Otherwise, I hope and I will look forward to the cleaning machine.


----------



## Daily_Spin (Jun 30, 2006)

*Ullrich's statement*

Jan just issued his statement and it was posted at T-Mobile's team site:
Ullrich: "I am shocked"

T-Mobile Jan Ullrich has issued his first public response to his suspension and exclusion from the Tour de France. "I am shocked,“ said Ullrich. "I still don't have anything to do with this affair.“ 

Earlier Christian Frommert, director of sport communication at T-Mobile International, again emphasised that there wasn't any clear evidence that Ullrich had used banned substances. "But we have good reason to doubt that he has told us the truth as far as his contact with Fuentes is concerned. That’s why we suspended him”, says Frommert. "Furthermore, we have confirmation from the A.S.O., that they would have taken action in case we hadn’t“. However, according to Frommert, Ullrich still has the chance to prove his innocence. 

Ullrich see himself "as a victim. I was in peak form and now I could cry, because I have to head home“. The 32-year-old will now return to his home base in Switzerland, to get a few days of peace and quiet. "Together with my lawyers I will then set out to prove my innocence.“ 

Read more @ Team T-Mobile


----------



## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

Thanks. Someone also gave me this cyclingnews.com link, which claims 31 riders are out...(?) Dunno which is more accurate/recent.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun30news2


----------



## Allez Rouge (Jan 1, 1970)

BenWA said:


> Someone also gave me this cyclingnews.com link, which claims 31 riders are out...(?)


I think that means, "Here are the 31 names we know so far out of the total of 58." Note that the list of 31 includes Heras and Hamilton (among others) who are not even in this year's Tour.

The same article seems to say, just above the section listing the 31 names, that there is apparently a total of 22 riders entered in Le Tour whose names are among the 58. (How they know that, if only 31 names have been released, I don't know.) My interpretation is that there are 22 in all, nine who are definitely out, and 13 more the fate of whom is not yet known.


----------



## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*You'll get 'em.*



ttug said:


> I hope we have many many more days just like today. In fact, I plan to party like its 1999 tonight.


We'll just make what we don't want other people to do illegal and punish enough of 'em severely enough and they'll stop doing it. It doesn't work real well with cocaine or marijuana, what makes you think it's gonna work on chemically enhanced cyclists? Feel free to be as self-righteous as you want to be and get as much delight as you can from bad things happening to people but don't pretend it's a strategy that's gonna fix anything. We live in a world that believes in a drug for every problem, face it and have a drug free party.


----------



## BlueMasi1 (Oct 9, 2002)

PAZ71 said:


> terry b said:
> 
> 
> > 2) Discovery keeps their doping program in-house and thus no likelihood of being exposed when a 2nd party gets nailed (Operation Puerto)
> ...


----------



## kcd (Feb 4, 2002)

*...thought Basso may win the TDF this year but now...*

I thought Basso may win the TDF this year but now it looks like he may not even make it. You'd think they would know better by now.


----------



## carb850 (Oct 7, 2005)

kcd said:


> I thought Basso may win the TDF this year but now it looks like he may not even make it. You'd think they would know better by now.


Actually it is official. He is out.


----------



## thinkcooper (Jan 5, 2005)

ttug said:


> Money talks, no doubt.


Absolutely. At this point, what my money is saying to the advertisers is that you've lost my attention. I'll save even more money but not bothering to even turn the tv on. 

The tour will still have some awesome riders this year, and it's anyone's guess. But the major stars are out. Friggin great. 

An observation - It used to be that drugs kept rock stars off the stage cause they were too f'ed up to perform. Now the self-righteous stage is so f'ed up that it's kicking the ready-to-perform stars off for supposedly doing drugs.


----------



## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

thinkcooper said:


> An observation - It used to be that drugs kept rock stars off the stage cause they were too f'ed up to perform. Now the self-righteous stage is so f'ed up that it's kicking the ready-to-perform stars off for supposedly doing drugs.


Very well put.


----------



## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

> But it interesting that two former Disco/US Postal riders (Hamilton and Heras) did get caught once they left the fold.


Yep, that's kinda wrapped up in my Option 2. Both lost whatever edge they were getting from Disco and had to seek help elsewhere.

Or, Disco's training plan is just that good, and those two needed the discipline that came from riding for LA to stay on top of their game without boosters. Some people just don't have the personal discipline to follow through with what they know works. They were on the team, they knew the process, and for whatever reason, they stopped following it and turned to less reliable means of keeping their edge.

What's really interesting to me is that not a single former Disco/USPS rider who was launched from the team has issued a tearful tell-all about how Disco dopes like crazy and has the means to get away with it. I find that really interesting. Maybe they're afraid LA will hunt them down and kill them.  Or maybe they're afraid they'll be ostracized. 

I reckon in 20 years when these jokers are writing their memoirs, LA, Disco/USPS and the rest of the elites will take a second round of beatings in the press.


----------



## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

In hindsight ... no wonder Basso was untouchable in the Giro.

My first thought was that it's a shame the contenders wouldn't be there. But I guess, in reality, they're not the contenders so it still could be a great tour. Now it's just a question of who else is doping outside this circle. My guess ... just about everyone.


----------



## Seamus (May 23, 2005)

Does it bother anyone else that these riders are being excluded not because they have tested positive for anything, but they *had contact* with a physician that's caught up in a doping scandal? What happened to proof? Presumption of innocence? I'm not naive enough to believe all these riders are clean, but since when is association proof of guilt??

Am I reading this wrong? Do they have the goods on Ullrich, Basso, etc? 

Jim


----------



## Soupboy (Mar 30, 2005)

In Europe, you're guilty until proven innocent.

I vote Floyd. I had him winning it anyway - pre Operation Retardation.



Seamus said:


> Does it bother anyone else that these riders are being excluded not because they have tested positive for anything, but they *had contact* with a physician that's caught up in a doping scandal? What happened to proof? Presumption of innocence? I'm not naive enough to believe all these riders are clean, but since when is association proof of guilt??
> 
> Am I reading this wrong? Do they have the goods on Ullrich, Basso, etc?
> 
> Jim


----------



## Route 66 Domestiques (Jun 15, 2006)

*This is Europe; not Guantanamo*



Seamus said:


> Does it bother anyone else that these riders are being excluded not because they have tested positive for anything, but they *had contact* with a physician that's caught up in a doping scandal? What happened to proof? Presumption of innocence? I'm not naive enough to believe all these riders are clean, but since when is association proof of guilt??
> 
> Am I reading this wrong? Do they have the goods on Ullrich, Basso, etc?
> 
> Jim


No proof? Innocent until? TdF was not part of the Supreme Court ruling.
I see Paris; I see France....


----------



## Art853 (May 30, 2003)

Physical ability, training, dedication, focus, hard work, intensity and intelligent strategy have a greater affect on performance than doping. 

Armstrong was a gifted athlete as a teenager in the 80’s. Liberty Seguros is the team most connected to the Operación Puerto investigation and their top guy finished 16th last year in the Tour de France. There are many other factors: the ability and resources to focus on the TdF and to hire top talent for the team for example.


----------



## walleyeangler (Nov 4, 2005)

Yes, it bothers me a lot. I still don't know why they didn't just make them take drops Friday to see who was doiing for the race and who wasn't. Drop, drop, drop. They will catch the cheaters. Until then, it's all guilt by association and speculation.

Iceman


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*hmmm*



rusa1586 said:


> We'll just make what we don't want other people to do illegal and punish enough of 'em severely enough and they'll stop doing it. It doesn't work real well with cocaine or marijuana, what makes you think it's gonna work on chemically enhanced cyclists? Feel free to be as self-righteous as you want to be and get as much delight as you can from bad things happening to people but don't pretend it's a strategy that's gonna fix anything. We live in a world that believes in a drug for every problem, face it and have a drug free party.


Bad things do happen to people. Bad things also happen to cheaters who get caught. GOODY. 

I have no strategy except, I plan to watch the TDF and enjoy the race. As to how I party and what I do, I dont plan on blood doping anytime too soon...............Be responsible, admit guilt and if you screw up and are in with the wrong crowd, be prepared to suffer....TOO BAD SO SAD.


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

*Vini*

I think the biggest shame is the loss of Alexander Vinokourov from this year's race. He wasn't implicated, but the loss of his teammates put them below the team minimum.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Soupboy said:


> In Europe, you're guilty until proven innocent.


yes, but that is just a place to start from--presumption of guilt of innocence really doesn't matter when it comes to getting a fair trial.


----------



## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Soupboy said:


> In Europe, you're guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> I vote Floyd. I had him winning it anyway - pre Operation Retardation.


Pro Tour rules say a rider is to be excluded from racing when he's under investigation. It's not meant as punishment, but ass covering for the sponsors, a phenomenon people in the US should be well familiar with. This is by no means a criminal case, indeed it's not even a matter of legislation in most countries, so different rules apply. By the way, a suspect has a far better chance of a fair trial in Yurp than in The US considering that about 10% of those in US death-row cells are found to be innocent after proper DNA testing. Hooray, hooray for the USA.


----------



## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

*It's a*

shame....really, almost all sports have their drug problems.....baseball and football with steroids, endurance sports with doping. I think the problem arises when you have people who are very passionate about their sports and have an immense financial interest in their futures. They are often VERY skilled-which can be improved markedly through practice and training, but they face physical limitations. Let's see......I love cycling, more than anything, I have been racing since I was six and I get an offer from a protour team.....however, my VO2 has max'd out at 60. No matter how hard I train, or how hard I work, I will not beat the guy with the higher LT and a VO2 in the mid to high eighties. SO what do I do.....it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Same with other sports. FWIW, I don't think Lance doped....at least not post cancer.. I think a VO2 of 85 and his skyhigh LT, plus his strict work ethic had a lot to do with it for him.


----------



## Dave Riley (Sep 22, 2005)

*Doping scandal/honesty (or lack thereof)*

This is a little off the subject but I'm often discouraged more by the post-incident B.S. than I am of the behavior in question. Be it Raffy Palmero, Mr. Bonds, Pete Rose, Tyler, or Bill "I didn't inhale" Clinton.

Nobody seems to have the nads to just own up to their stuff. Even Giambi said as little as he (or his handlers) felt he needed to. We're generally a pretty forgiving bunch when someone has the courage to own a "mistake".

It is very hard to believe ANYTHING anymore. It's sad. I know there's some good guys out there, but we'll never know.

It will be interesting to see how this scandal plays out...the spins that will be thrown out there...who speaks out...who hunkers down to ride it out.

I don't have the brains to process all the "information" that we'll be fed. We live in a culture where values have changed dramatically. I'm really sad. Like a lot of people, I value integrity. 

I'll still watch the TDH and all my other sports. I'll get into it. I'm just not sure I have any "heros" anymore.


----------



## MellowDramatic (Jun 8, 2006)

Honestly, I think the banning of all those riders is good....it sends a statement not only to fans but to riders that doping will not be tolerated anymore...I think it's about time something like this was done.


----------

