# Easton EC90 SL clinchers almost killed me Saturday...



## LinoD

Hey All,

Well, My Easton's almost killed me Saturday... We did the same route the Amgen Tour of California did, up GMR, down and around and up Mount Baldy. We were having a blast. It was really cool to be riding the same route as the pro's and being able to watch them zoom by you... 

On our decent down Baldy, My rear EC90 SL started unraveling and melting on a 46mph section, ScArry stuff... The wheel then starting locking up intermittently as the wheel started warping getting stuck between the brake pads. This all happened within seconds. 

Easton not recalling these wheels is F-ing crazy... 100% (5) of the people that I know that have "had" these wheels have had the exact same issue. 

I will NEVER own another pair of these garbage wheels. I've had endless problems with both front and rear hubs and now this.
Please be warned... If you ride in the hills and have fast descents, you are gambling using these wheels. 

Campy wheels... Here i come  !!


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## cmg

clinchers get hot when braking excessively. not new news. all carbon clinchers will perform this way. tubulars might be a little better. pros have better luck with them because the roads are closed so there's less traffic to contend with, more road to play with and for the most part they have better bike handling skills.


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## pcs2

LinoD said:


> Easton not recalling these wheels is F-ing crazy... 100% (5) of the people that I know that have "had" these wheels have had the exact same issue.


Glad you didn't die, and it sounds like a good move to ditch the wheels, but given your friends experience, why didn't you stop using them before?

Not sure what your thought process was, but to decide to use them on a ride with big/fast descents knowing the failure rates from your friends seems a little crazy.

Have fun shopping for new wheels. :thumbsup:


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## TomH

Anyone ever see an aluminum clincher rim overheat to failure?


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## LinoD

you guys are right, i sould have got rid of them after the second guy in the club had them blow up... live and learn i guess.

I ordered a pair of Campy Shamal ultra's... I like what I'm reading about them. Rides i enjoy most are long steep climbs, hilly centuries... think this is a good fit for me. I'll be happy to have the stiffness and braking back.


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## fa63

LinoD said:


> I ordered a pair of Campy Shamal ultra's...


Good choice :thumbsup:

I would never even think about riding carbon clinchers down a mountain descent, no matter how good/improved the manufacturer claims the braking is.


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## littlewing6283

i specifically changed wheels the night before for fear of this. I dont like descending in my Ec90sls.


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## pcs2

LinoD said:


> you guys are right, i sould have got rid of them after the second guy in the club had them blow up... live and learn i guess.
> 
> I ordered a pair of Campy Shamal ultra's... I like what I'm reading about them. Rides i enjoy most are long steep climbs, hilly centuries... think this is a good fit for me. I'll be happy to have the stiffness and braking back.


At least you are alive 

I have a set of Shamal Ultras......very nice wheels :thumbsup:


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## foz

Personally I've never seen the point of carbon clinchers. They might look good, but that's about it. If you want carbon, then tubs are the only way to go. If you want clinchers, stick with aluminium.


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## pjcampo

how long did you ride the brakes? I havent done any real life testing but know my rims can get too hot to touch within a minute of riding them.


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## jsedlak

How long were you on the brakes before this occurred?
How far down the descent were you?
Have you contacted Easton (perhaps to send them the wheels to help them better their product)?


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## LinoD

We started descending Mount Baldy after the Amgen race had finished, so everyone starting heading down at the same time... lots of traffic, so it was impossible to pick a line and fly down. I was riding the brakes for a bit, but i really had no choice... Either way, The Easton Wheel melting like that is unacceptable. 




pjcampo said:


> how long did you ride the brakes? I havent done any real life testing but know my rims can get too hot to touch within a minute of riding them.


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## LinoD

1) i was on the brakes for 30sec when i started hearing the wheel "thumping"

2) I was still at the top, only passed the first switch back. 

3) I have left Easton a voice mail and three emails. still nothing. 



jsedlak said:


> How long were you on the brakes before this occurred?
> How far down the descent were you?
> Have you contacted Easton (perhaps to send them the wheels to help them better their product)?


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## pjcampo

you could stop and let the brake surface cool down.


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## LinoD

yeah, your right... i should have stopped every 15 feet so wheels wouldn't over heat. what's your point ? 



pjcampo said:


> you could stop and let the brake surface cool down.


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## pjcampo

I am not trying to be facetious.

I have done a number of the hardest/highest climbs in the east which are nothing compared to California, I am sure , and on the descent we unfortunately have to stop sometimes. It is frustrating but necessary.

Just Sunday I was going down a 15% grade that goes on for 1.5 miles and I kept having to stop for fear of melting the epoxy that holds my alum clincher to my carbon rim or just blowing up my tire. I probably will not ever do that particular ride again, it's just not fun.

point is, though, I think you would have seen some damage to many wheels.


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## woodys737

I've not ridden a carbon clincher. Only carbon tubulars and aluminum clinchers. Are there published limitations from Easton regarding their carbon clinchers and brake track temp or continuous braking time or something?

edit: just curious.


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## LinoD

i have been searching... nothing yet though. 



woodys737 said:


> I've not ridden a carbon clincher. Only carbon tubulars and aluminum clinchers. Are there published limitations from Easton regarding their carbon clinchers and brake track temp or continuous braking time or something?
> 
> edit: just curious.


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## locomotive1

*Thanks for the post*

Thanks for posting your experience. I have had my SL's for almost a year and I love them.
Most of the rides I do include hills hear in the Auburn, Ca. area. Its common to do 3000-5000 feet of climbing on the weekend. I weigh anywhere between 185-200 depending on the time of year. I will not use my Sl's on steep extended descents because the braking power is not sufficient. That being said I still use them about 90% of the time. For the high mountains and white knucklers I use my Campy shamals. The Campys are more than dependable and of course there are no worries about heating the rims up. Sorry about your wheels. Easton must either give you a refund or a different model wheelset. You will not be disappointed with Shamals.


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## tom_h

Last year, Easton carbon clinchers belonging to a guy in my club, warped and delaminated during a long descent in Sta Monica Mtns -- and he's a light guy (? 145 lbs ?). Not sure if his wheels were EC90SL.

Anyway, Easton sent him new replacement wheels, hopefully an improved & updated version. 

Definitely you should persist in trying to get Easton to correct the problem.

re Mt Baldy Stage 7, I descended a few minutes after the last gruppetto finished, and there was heavy bike & car traffic all the way down to Baldy Village. I must have worn ~2mm off my Koolstop brake pads!!

BTW, I was riding my Campy Shamal clinchers, no issues. I didn't want to risk popping a latex tube due to overheating, so I made a point to alternate between front & rear brakes every 5-10 seconds. I think it's risky to continuously "ride" brakes down long steep descents.


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## scottzj

Well Easton seems to have numerous issues on their wheelsets. They also have spoke issues with the carbons too. I have since returned mine and purchased a set of Reynolds and sent mine back to easton.


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## stevesbike

it's not just Easton. Carbon clinchers are a bad idea - in addition to delamination, excessive braking can cause tires to blow off by increased pressure in tubes. This is well-documented and a known issue. It even happened to one of the Velonews editors in their recent review. They are not safe for mountain descents and should at least be required to come with a warning and advisory about limitations of their safe use.


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## macming

stevesbike said:


> it's not just Easton. Carbon clinchers are a bad idea - in addition to delamination, excessive braking can cause tires to blow off by increased pressure in tubes. This is well-documented and a known issue. It even happened to one of the Velonews editors in their recent review. They are not safe for mountain descents and should at least be required to come with a warning and advisory about limitations of their safe use.


Wow, I'm so glad that I went with tubulars when I picked up my carbon wheels


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## Michael15

I have a set of the Easton EC 90's also and man does this thread scare me. Thanks for posting. Would carbon tubulars be a better option to do long technical descents over the carbon clinchers?


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## foofighter

glad i sold mine and back to aluminum wheels...hope you get this resolved.


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## ukbloke

macming said:


> Wow, I'm so glad that I went with tubulars when I picked up my carbon wheels


You won't be blowing clinchers off your rims, but how will that help with delamination and melting?

Anyway, thanks to the OP for convincing me to never buy carbon wheels. You've saved me a bunch of money. So how long did it take to get home after getting stuck near the top of Mt Baldy with an unsafe wheel and the road closed due to the ToC stage?


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## macming

ukbloke said:


> You won't be blowing clinchers off your rims, but how will that help with delamination and melting?


The brake track on tubulars are a solid pieces of carbon fiber, compared to the two thin pieces of carbon used in a clincher setup. When there is more material, there is more room for heat absorption. Coupled with the new braking surface used by Reynolds and Edge, I have good confidence in my carbon tubular wheels. 

This is just my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong :thumbsup:


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## tom_h

Some brands of wheels may be more robust. 

Exmpl, a friend has a Zipp 404 clincher wheelset from a few years ago, where the brake track is aluminum bonded over the carbon. He is a big guy (c. 185 lbs). He's done many descents in Sta Monica Mtns, some with me, and his wheels are holding up fine. This includes roads like Las Flores Cyn Rd, which are steep (10%+ ) and technical. 

The newest Zipp clinchers are all carbon, and Zipp makes a big deal of saying they avoided all carbon until they could "get it right". It gives me confidence, since their aluminum track carbon wheels seem robust.

Having said all that, and I'm possibly a minority, but carbon _clincher_ seems neither fish nor fowl. I went with Zipp 404 tubulars, because:
-- Zipp is primarily a race wheelset, for me (Campy Shamal & Powertap clinchers for everyday).
-- tubular wheelsets are substantantially lighter than clinchers.
-- tubulars are somewhat safer in a "pack" race.
-- I can sort-of ride flatted tubulars, so in a road race I take my chances, and don't need to carry a saddle bag with spare tube, inflator, etc.


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## Don4

tom_h said:


> BTW, I was riding my Campy Shamal clinchers, no issues. I didn't want to risk popping a latex tube due to overheating, so I made a point to alternate between front & rear brakes every 5-10 seconds. I think it's risky to continuously "ride" brakes down long steep descents.


Alternating front and rear brakes is also my standard operating procedure on steep descents. It may be overkill, but I figure it increases my safety margin.


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## stevesbike

this is Josh Poertner's (Zipp) answer about heat from their website. He discusses tubulars and glue as well:

It is the heat that causes the butyl inner tube to fail and not the pressure increase, although I have seen people blow clincher tires off of rims due to the pressure increase. We have seen rim temperatures in testing exceeding 325F, which can be enough to raise the air pressure in the tire by 20-25psi, so this can be a blowout risk on loose fitting tires or rims at the low end of the ISO diameter spec. On tubulars the heat is more likely to melt or soften the glue than blow the tube as the tire base tape and casing serve to insulate the tube. The tire rupture on tubulars is more likely going to be that the tire begins to rotate on the rim and the valve is ripped from the tube. I was doing a US Nationals about 15 years ago in Bear Mtn. New York and they started the race at the top of some climb and neutralized the start behind a car for the 3 or 4 mile descent and maybe 20 people flatted or rolled tires in those 3 or 4 miles due to brake heat of having to ride a steep descent at 25mph behind a car…painful.
Anyway, alternating your brake usage or at least feathering out of one brake of the other for a few seconds will lower rim temperatures considerably. Also using brake pads without any abrasive additives like the Zipp pads or even the Kool Stop Black pads will lower temps by as much as 20-30degrees and up to 60 degrees for the Zipp pad which also contains thermally conductive materials. Most pads anymore contain aluminum oxide; the same stuff sand paper is made from, to increase coefficient of friction, but that also increases heat. Also, once the pads do begin to melt they create an insulating situation on the rim where the hot pad material melts to the rim keeping the aluminum or carbon from being able to reject heat to the atmosphere, and also increases the surface coefficient of friction, so that when the part of the rim with melted pad on it comes through the brakes again it is hotter and higher friction which will make it even hotter...a sort of snowball effect.
Finally, lighter weight, or shallower profile rims will get hotter as they have less mass to act as a heat sink, and less surface area to dissipate heat for convective cooling. The more aerodynamically effective a rim is the better it will generally cool as the airflow stays attached to a larger area of rim where it can transfer away heat.


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## LinoD

the bike was un rideable after the rear wheel started melting... the rear brake calipers were stuck to the rear wheel, rear was locked up. My buddy rode back to his car at En Canto park and came back to pick me up... funny thing is i had plenty of company because two other guys had the same thing happen to them... one of the other guys had the same Easton wheels ! 




ukbloke said:


> You won't be blowing clinchers off your rims, but how will that help with delamination and melting?
> 
> Anyway, thanks to the OP for convincing me to never buy carbon wheels. You've saved me a bunch of money. So how long did it take to get home after getting stuck near the top of Mt Baldy with an unsafe wheel and the road closed due to the ToC stage?


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## Road Hazard

I'm sorry this happened to you, it's a bummer for sure.

I was very close to buying those exact wheels, but I read a couple too many stories just like yours on these and other forums about all carbon clinchers. Some stories ended with front wheel warping, clincher tire popping off and catching on the brake, and bad crashes.

I don't say that to rub it in, because I think Easton damn well knows about this issue, and damn well knows that a person should be able to assume that their bike wheels are going hold up under the ordinary conditions, and descending and heavy braking are ordinary for high performance bike wheels.

When I was looking at these, a bike shop guy actually told me that the 2011 EC90 SL's had "new and improved" thermatrac. I emailed easton and asked if 2011 was any different from 2010 and they said no. Son of a b*****.


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## woodys737

Road Hazard said:


> I'm sorry this happened to you, it's a bummer for sure.
> 
> I was very close to buying those exact wheels, but I read a couple too many stories just like yours on these and other forums about all carbon clinchers. Some stories ended with front wheel warping, clincher tire popping off and catching on the brake, and bad crashes.
> 
> I don't say that to rub it in, because I think Easton damn well knows about this issue, and damn well knows that a person should be able to assume that their bike wheels are going hold up under the ordinary conditions, and descending and heavy braking are ordinary for high performance bike wheels.
> 
> *When I was looking at these, a bike shop guy actually told me that the 2011 EC90 SL's had "new and improved" thermatrac. I emailed easton and asked if 2011 was any different from 2010 and they said no. Son of a b******.


Interesting. Heard the same thing from a lbs owner. If that's true I'd think you'd see some folks in court soon. I'd be pissed if my wheels melted from normal brake use...

edit...with approved pads.


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## DMFT

*+1*



stevesbike said:


> it's not just Easton. Carbon clinchers are a bad idea - in addition to delamination, excessive braking can cause tires to blow off by increased pressure in tubes. This is well-documented and a known issue. It even happened to one of the Velonews editors in their recent review. They are not safe for mountain descents and should at least be required to come with a warning and advisory about limitations of their safe use.


- Totally concur.... My 1st-gen. ROVAL Carbon Clincher blew-out on a hot day while descending a steep, technical mountain.

VERY scarrrrrry. 

IMO - Carbon Clinchers are NOT anyones best option for big descents.


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## nightfend

This is why I paid the weight penalty and just bought Cosmic Carbone SLR's. Yeah, they are a little heavier, but the braking track is aluminum.


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## foofighter

Went riding with my buddy this past saturday. He was running EC90 SL's and we kept hearing this rubbing sound. Thought maybe the wheels were out of true. Told him to take it in to see what's up. He got a call saying his rear is toast, had developed a crack. He's going to swing by the shop after work to take a look but i guess it could be warranty time...unless they say it's from hitting a pothole or something.


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## enellch

Love my Zipp 101s (I know there may be better value wheels out there) I was hitting up a decent of 40 + mph Sunday (for quite a few miles) rode the breaks quite a bit and had no problems at all breaking at any time. I did not even think about the possibility of overheating, wobbling or poor breaking...Can this occur on an alloy rim?


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## tom_h

enellch ,
I'm not aware of any alum alloy rims disintegrating under hard, prolonged braking.

What can happen , is the temperature rise from braking will increase the tube/tire pressure enough to exceed rim's or tire's pressure rating, in turn leading to a blowout.

I've seen this happen to riders who (unwisely) inflated their clinchers to 120-125 psi when cold. After brake heating , tire pressure may have increased to 135-140 or more, causing the blowout.


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## foofighter

seems it was a manufacturing defect. a section of the left braking surface had begun to collapse inwards into the tire.


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## nightfend

enellch said:


> Love my Zipp 101s (I know there may be better value wheels out there) I was hitting up a decent of 40 + mph Sunday (for quite a few miles) rode the breaks quite a bit and had no problems at all breaking at any time. I did not even think about the possibility of overheating, wobbling or poor breaking...Can this occur on an alloy rim?


Those Zipp 101's, while a little expensive, are very well made wheels. They are ideal for long descents, so I'd have no worries. Just remember, as others have noted, that if you plan on doing a lot of descending during the day, to keep your tire pressure at or below 110psi.


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## alias33

I have these same wheels and have the same issue with the front wheel, sending them back to easton on monday, they said that they've seen a "few" come back with the same issue.


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## Special Eyes

I see folks here comparing carbon wheels to aluminum ones. From what I've read and seen on this forum, Carbon wheels are often the same weight as aluminum alloy wheels. So, what's the advantage? Does anyone actually think carbon fiber can take the use, mis-use and abuse that metal can?


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## alias33

Mine are still as true as the day I bought them and they ride much smoother, just the braking surface is botched


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## nightfend

Special Eyes said:


> I see folks here comparing carbon wheels to aluminum ones. From what I've read and seen on this forum, Carbon wheels are often the same weight as aluminum alloy wheels. So, what's the advantage? Does anyone actually think carbon fiber can take the use, mis-use and abuse that metal can?


The only advantage is aerodynamics. Well and maybe the stiffness that comes from a deeper rim. To get an aluminum rim that is 50+mm deep would make the thing brick-like in weight.


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## Argentius

*Numbers*

Carbon rims are CONSIDERABLY lighter than their aluminum counterparts of a similar-depth -- especially tubulars.

That's it. 

Anyone remember the ORIGINAL Mavic Cosmic?



Special Eyes said:


> I see folks here comparing carbon wheels to aluminum ones. From what I've read and seen on this forum, Carbon wheels are often the same weight as aluminum alloy wheels. So, what's the advantage? Does anyone actually think carbon fiber can take the use, mis-use and abuse that metal can?


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## CleavesF

*who the hell brakes on a descent on carbon hoops for 30 seconds and not have their wheelset melt?*

NOBODY.


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## ohvrolla

Special Eyes said:


> I see folks here comparing carbon wheels to aluminum ones. From what I've read and seen on this forum, Carbon wheels are often the same weight as aluminum alloy wheels. So, what's the advantage? Does anyone actually think carbon fiber can take the use, mis-use and abuse that metal can?


This is a hobby by and large for people with disposable income, and Easton is glad to let you dispose of it even if someone has no chance in h3ll of ever making a dollar out of riding a road bike.


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## tone12

CleavesF said:


> *who the hell brakes on a descent on carbon hoops for 30 seconds and not have their wheelset melt?*
> 
> NOBODY.


That is exactly what I was thinking. I would think any rim would have issues with that. If not the rim then the tube or tire.


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## tomato

Did the OP ever get in touch with Easton? I'm wondering if they made good on their warranty or at least showed some interest in why their rims failed.


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## LouisVuitton

Yeah, Lino you're not supposed to brake for 30seconds straight on a carbon wheel. You have to descend and lay off the brakes every now and then to allow the braking surface to cool. Even if you were on aluminum clinchers, the aluminum braking surface could heat up and pop your inner tube also.


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## bradXism

I agree with a couple of the above comments regarding the regarding a carbon clincher and for having it for general use. I have worked pretty extensively with carbon epoxy composites, although not in this realm, and am trying to understand this.
I thought it took around 250F to reach what is referred to as the glass transition temp where it starts to get flexible it then takes a considerable amount of heat to get the temp to rise above that where it starts to loose its hardness and 450F to turn to soft goo. At 600 it disintegrates. I would think that the pads being a thermo-plastic and the tire being thermo-plastic too, both would have turned to goo first more so on an alloy rim which has a higher heat conductivity, meaning that it would transfer the heat to the tire and pad more. On an alloy rim, the pad would go first and it would take alot of heat to get the temp uniform on the glue to effect it. ( I know glues are different but not that much). I don't recall hearing either as a problem in pro circles even on the old arc-en-ciel and Wolber aluminum rims. I have heard of tandem tires blowing out and pads turning to goo. 
i might be a complete arrogant pseudo intellect doo-doo head and am totally ready to be corrected on any of this, but I would think the layer was so thin and the pad was harder and wore off the thin epoxy(?) If it was the heat I would think the failure would be more uniform on the rim. Either way being old and non-competitive any more I am sticking to alloy rims.


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## nightfend

Aluminum rims act like heat-sinks and dissipate built up heat much faster than carbon rims.


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## LinoD

*Super Happy with my Campy Shamals !!*

After about 1000miles and well over 50K ft of climbing on the Shamals Ultras, in my experience, they are better then the Eastons in every way. Campy hubs are far superior to the Eastons. If anyone out there is shopping for a fast, stiff (climbing), bomb prof wheel, look no further. 

Very Happy !


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## bradXism

i know for the orginal post this is awfully in depth but it really stirred my interest in how this failed. I agree with the 'Heat sink' with the higher conductivity of the alloy. i would still be interested in seeing what it did to the pads being that is where the heat would be high enough to do damage to the epoxy. That should have been enough heat to damage the pads..maybe creating a rougher or tackier surface that wore away the surface. Any way it works it still a defect in the design or manufacturing. Do you think we could get a pic of the pads just out of general interest.


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## LinoD

sorry, I'd love to help out, but the yellow pads are long gone... threw them out. 



bradXism said:


> i know for the orginal post this is awfully in depth but it really stirred my interest in how this failed. I agree with the 'Heat sink' with the higher conductivity of the alloy. i would still be interested in seeing what it did to the pads being that is where the heat would be high enough to do damage to the epoxy. That should have been enough heat to damage the pads..maybe creating a rougher or tackier surface that wore away the surface. Any way it works it still a defect in the design or manufacturing. Do you think we could get a pic of the pads just out of general interest.


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## bradXism

Ok so I am overdoing it, but...it looks like it is a compatibility pad/epoxy/carbon issue as many of the carbon wheels specify that you use their pads.
The guys at General Composites are easily persuaded into any side track. I got a few facts and even a small experiment. Different epoxies have different temps where they start to get soft. Some are soft and flexible to start with, like for fishing rods. Epoxy has some heat dissipation but the carbon fibre in it has just about no heat dissipation. They have a "Melting point" doo-dad made for blow-moulding thermoplastics I went and grabbed a few pads from my bike pile shaved them for the thingy and got some melting temps. Kool Stop, aztec, stock xt 'v' cartirdge type brake pads and an old set of Scott-mathauser) None of these were designed for carbon fibre rims and were drastically different with the Scott brake pad +70F hotter than the than the XT. Both guys wasting company time, agreed that the pads would probably dissipate heat more readily and different between the different materials so the shaved bits wasn't a true indication of the heat(Different than temp) they would take, The epoxy/carbon with less dissipation, would probably get a higher surface temp than the pad especially on a thinner spot. Once the thin spot came thru the edges were microscopically thin with no heat dissipation from the carbon, and, wear off.
So, even though this is probably a defect of being too thin, there is merit to the pads being specific to the rims.
Hope this keeps some future disasters.


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## cervelott

Excellent article in Road Bike Action this month talking about carbon clinchers and tubulars. All the heat in the breaking of a clincher is along the thin rim of the clincher were as it is dissipated on a tubular by the much larger with of the rim of the tubular. Zipp says they have finally found an adhesive fabricator in the F1 racing circuit that is giving them more confidence in the glues in the manufacture of their carbon. Some neat pics of their testing. Also developed a brake pad that dissipates heat better using ceramic dust in the pads that runs them 100 degrees cooler. Some companies like Mavic don't yet trust the technology and have yet to put to market a true carbon clincher due to the heat issues. Worth the read...


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## stevesbike

the 'obvious' solution is disc brakes for road bikes. If the UCI really cared about rider safety, they would allow this. Although pros race on tubulars, carbon rim braking performance is below alloy rims and is especially poor in wet conditions. Don't know if this was a factor in Vino's crash in the tour, but disc brakes would solve many issues. They are allowing discs for cyclocross, so who knows. It would be great for carbon clinchers - and would also lead to longer service life of rims.


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## alias33

LinoD said:


> After about 1000miles and well over 50K ft of climbing on the Shamals Ultras, in my experience, they are better then the Eastons in every way. Campy hubs are far superior to the Eastons. If anyone out there is shopping for a fast, stiff (climbing), bomb prof wheel, look no further.
> 
> Very Happy !


are these the same as the fulcrum racing zero wheels? They look awfully similar, how well are the hubs sealed? The eastons have ZERO rubber seals in the hubs and my ceramic bearings were toast after three months of riding and only two days of riding in light rain. I love the look and feel of carbon but damn these wheels are pissing me off


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## LinoD

Yes, the Campy Shamals and Fulcrum zeros are more or less the same wheel. I'm very happy wight them, hubs are super smooth. Between the improved breaking and wheel stiffness, I may never own another carbon clincher again. 




alias33 said:


> are these the same as the fulcrum racing zero wheels? They look awfully similar, how well are the hubs sealed? The eastons have ZERO rubber seals in the hubs and my ceramic bearings were toast after three months of riding and only two days of riding in light rain. I love the look and feel of carbon but damn these wheels are pissing me off


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## tom_h

stevesbike said:


> the 'obvious' solution is disc brakes for road bikes. If the UCI really cared about rider safety, they would allow this. Although pros race on tubulars, carbon rim braking performance is below alloy rims and is especially poor in wet conditions. Don't know if this was a factor in Vino's crash in the tour, but disc brakes would solve many issues. They are allowing discs for cyclocross, so who knows. It would be great for carbon clinchers - and would also lead to longer service life of rims.


I think hubs, spokes, and spoke counts would have to be a lot beefier to work safely with disc brakes, due to the torques that would be exerted on those parts. Heavier and less aero wheels might not be readily accepted by the road race crowd!


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## alias33

called easton yesterday and they are going to replace my front rim due to delamination and "slanted braketracks" also replacing the front wheel bearings (only 4 months of riding on them and twice in the rain). The rear rim is perfect and true but the cassette bearing and hub bearings are "rough" and will be replaced, only 500 miles on the rear cassette body. The body will hopefully be replaced as well since its notched beyond belief (its aluminum instead of more durable steel) with a shimano specific ten speed one. So far I'm happy with the warranty service of easton but not the durability of the hubs/bearings. Maybe I should relace them to a DT240 hub?


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## LinoD

After all that your going to continue riding these wheels ? I say get your money back and move on... If you like to climb and have fast descents these wheels are way to Dangerous, it's been proven time and time again... Don't wait for these wheels to have a catastrophic failure. 




alias33 said:


> called easton yesterday and they are going to replace my front rim due to delamination and "slanted braketracks" also replacing the front wheel bearings (only 4 months of riding on them and twice in the rain). The rear rim is perfect and true but the cassette bearing and hub bearings are "rough" and will be replaced, only 500 miles on the rear cassette body. The body will hopefully be replaced as well since its notched beyond belief (its aluminum instead of more durable steel) with a shimano specific ten speed one. So far I'm happy with the warranty service of easton but not the durability of the hubs/bearings. Maybe I should relace them to a DT240 hub?


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## foko

*Same problem with Edge 38's*

I had my Edge 38's deform and almost release a tire last week as well. 

I did a bunch of reading about the issue subsequently. When the brake track reaches a certain critical temperature, defined by the epoxy resin's specific characteristics, the outward pressure exerted by the clincher tube/tire combo deforms the rim and leads to the tires coming off/ruptureing. 

The rate at which the temperature rises is defined by the specific pad, how the brakes are used, and the ability of the brake track to dissipate heat. There is very little material in a clincher brake track so heat dissipation is poor. Additionally, pads have a biphasic ability to dissipate heat.....ie good at first, but when they reach a certain temp the heat starts to build exponentially.

Tubulars have the same temperature rise issues. The difference though is that the brake track has a lot more material to dissipate heat so the temperature rise is much slower. Additionally, even when the temperature reaches a critical temperature, there is no outward pressure being exerted by the tire, so there is no real deformation (to a point). 

I bought my Edge's second hand, and had not done my homework on this issue. Knowing what I know now, I doubt I'll be using even the new generation carbon clinchers again. Frankly, the braking was always substandard compared to aluminum brake tracks despite trying every possible pad/caliper combo.

So until disc brakes are the rage its aluminum clinchers/brake tracks for me. I suppose I could be talked into carbon tubulars, but then the braking is still substandard, so I don't think I'd like to use them on any significant descents anyhow.

One frustration is that EDGE won't help due to time elapsed on the wheels (two year warranty) , and that I am the second owner. Expensive mistake on my part! :mad2:

Fabian


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## bj.bonnette

I ride EC70 SL's. 38mm carbon with aluminum brake track. I have had 0 problems with them. I am glad I opted for these so I don't have to worry about delamination and warping issues.


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## Wines of WA

bj.bonnette said:


> I ride EC70 SL's. 38mm carbon with aluminum brake track. I have had 0 problems with them. I am glad I opted for these so I don't have to worry about delamination and warping issues.


Right on. I raced a decade ago on Zipp 404 tubulars. Tubular all-carbon rims make sense. All-carob clinchers don't make sense. Even the leading Edge/Enve carbon clinchers seem to have issues. 

I know it's said on this and other forums on a nearly daily basis, but I can't see any reason to buy all-carbon clinchers except bling factor. If you put rational thought into a clincher wheel purchase decision, aluminum braking surface seems to be the only way to go at this tiime.


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## hooj1

Wow thats pretty crazy. Clinchers on carbon never seems like a good idea


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## streetcop

First off I'm glad the op didn't wreck or injure himself. I'm further glad the manufacturer is working with him for a solution (we can argue all week about how the company knew, or should have known, about this problem in advance).


A couple of posters mentioned that the 30 seconds of braking was too much and others have mentioned they alternate from front to rear to give the non-braking rim time to cool off.

So what is the general consensus as far as braking technique? Should one try to use say, 5 seconds of moderately hard braking or 25 seconds of light braking to maintain the same average speed. Which method is better for controlling heat load on the rims and brake pads? Either method will have the same amount of net energy/heat/friction to deal with by the time you arrive safely at the bottom of the hill--again the same average speed. Of course if reach the bottom faster with one method over the other, there would have been less net braking and less heat/friction. 

Are there some brands of pads that are known to be better at both good braking and controlling heat than say the brand x cheapies at wally world?

Let the physics arguments begin.


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## allenpg

Who is selling you these wheels and who are you buying them from? The issues of carbon clinchers and overheating the brake tracks has been an issue in the cycling press for like 50 billion years now. I live in SoCal and ride super cheap carbon clinchers most of the time (aka, descents no more than 5-10%) and my aluminum rims on anything steeper. I'm a wuss going downhill and ride the brakes most the way down.

I'll never forget Joseba Beloki's descent in the 2003 Tour de France when he had a tubular come unglued on a descent. I guess I thought twice about overheating rims since then. I usually worry more about the morons riding around me though...

I can't wait for a few years when we have hydro disc brakes on out STIs w/carbon clinchers.

I feel bad for anyone who's crashed from rims overheating, but you can't blame manufacturers entirely. They shouldn't over promise in their claims. However, it's a bit like a car tire manufacturer claiming great traction in the rain, yet someone will still slide into the ditch because they were driving too fast.


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## alias33

easton sent me a brand new front and rear wheel under warranty, only took 10 days including shipping, the "new" wheels are made in mexico my old ones were taiwan units, not sure if that matters, the brake track does look slighty different, they are taller and seem to extend further towards the hub, I aligned the pads closer to the center of the wheel so they don't ride so close to the edge of the rim. I'm very happy with their customer service.


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## sneakyracer

Bottom line, If you intend to ride up and down a lot of hills, specially steep hills, avoid carbon clinchers. But a few friends of mine have had good results with the Zipp 404's and ENVE 45 clinchers. So far, but they use them in mostly dry weather. Most people around here just use Mavic Cosmic's since they are pretty much bulletproof. 

(I live on a tropical island with LOTS of steep hills, up to Cat 1 TDF, nasty roads and foul weather, if a wheel survives here, well, its good enough for anywhere.)

I use the Cosmic's mostly. Even so, good braking technique is a must for any wheel when going down the steep stuff. Try to balance your weight on the bike, get off the saddle slightly and use both front and rear brakes proportionally. Riding the brakes, specially riding the rear brake only is a recipe for disaster. Pick smooth spots to brake hard and then let go.


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## SROC3

I use the Easton EC90SL's and have never had major braking issues. I also weigh 145lbs so that may be a factor, but when I do brake I always modulate. Like "sneakyracer" said - "Pick smooth spots to brake hard and then let go.

Recently, however, I've had some corrosion issues with the spoke nipples. They started to crack and I had to turn them in for a warranty exchange. No word yet, but Easton has always been good w/ warranty stuff so I expect no less from them.

I've had my wheels for a little over a year and I must say....they ride great. They're definitely not as grippy as alum but thus far they have treated me well, even on downhill rides.


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## foofighter

my buddy with the brake track implosion problem waited a month before Easton basically replaced the rear wheel for him...a MONTH


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## ColoColo

What Island is that? Good advice by the way...



sneakyracer said:


> Bottom line, If you intend to ride up and down a lot of hills, specially steep hills, avoid carbon clinchers. But a few friends of mine have had good results with the Zipp 404's and ENVE 45 clinchers. So far, but they use them in mostly dry weather. Most people around here just use Mavic Cosmic's since they are pretty much bulletproof.
> 
> (I live on a tropical island with LOTS of steep hills, up to Cat 1 TDF, nasty roads and foul weather, if a wheel survives here, well, its good enough for anywhere.)
> 
> I use the Cosmic's mostly. Even so, good braking technique is a must for any wheel when going down the steep stuff. Try to balance your weight on the bike, get off the saddle slightly and use both front and rear brakes proportionally. Riding the brakes, specially riding the rear brake only is a recipe for disaster. Pick smooth spots to brake hard and then let go.


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## karlkras

*Old thread, same problem...*

Last weekend's ride involved ~5k' of pretty steep descents (steep ascents too!)
6 month old Diamondback Podium 7 that came stock with these Easton wheels (looked really cool!).
After this 85m ride I noticed some uneven rubbing while applying front brake, found the braking surface was bubbling up and searched here to find what had happened since I've never experienced this problem in the past. Sho enough, de-lamination. Brought it in to a local dealer who was "surprised" that this could happen, though a simple google search will show otherwise.
They are under warranty, and I'm fully expecting for Easton to replace it, but I'm not sure if I'm ever going to run these things again. Here in western Oregon you can't really avoid hills.


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## sneakyracer

ColoColo said:


> What Island is that? Good advice by the way...


thx! Puerto Rico

btw, I am not using the Cosmics anymore im using a set of Fulcrum Racing 1's with tubeless tires (Hutchinson Fusion 3's). Love the ride. Much smoother and they climb fast!


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## SystemShock

karlkras said:


> Last weekend's ride involved ~5k' of pretty steep descents (steep ascents too!)
> 6 month old Diamondback Podium 7 that came stock with these Easton wheels (looked really cool!).
> 
> After this 85m ride I noticed some uneven rubbing while applying front brake, found the braking surface was bubbling up and searched here to find what had happened since I've never experienced this problem in the past. Sho enough, de-lamination. Brought it in to a local dealer who was "surprised" that this could happen, though a simple google search will show otherwise.
> 
> They are under warranty, and I'm fully expecting for Easton to replace it, but I'm not sure if I'm ever going to run these things again. Here in western Oregon you can't really avoid hills.


Ugh. Sorry to hear it. 

And I guess it's good to raise awareness of the (potentially safety-related) issues of carbon clinchers plus lots of braking. So, good thread dredge.


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## Rickard Laufer

karlkras said:


> Last weekend's ride involved ~5k' of pretty steep descents (steep ascents too!)
> 6 month old Diamondback Podium 7 that came stock with these Easton wheels (looked really cool!).
> After this 85m ride I noticed some uneven rubbing while applying front brake, found the braking surface was bubbling up and searched here to find what had happened since I've never experienced this problem in the past. Sho enough, de-lamination. Brought it in to a local dealer who was "surprised" that this could happen, though a simple google search will show otherwise.
> They are under warranty, and I'm fully expecting for Easton to replace it, but I'm not sure if I'm ever going to run these things again. Here in western Oregon you can't really avoid hills.


Noticed Easton is changed (in favour of HED) on the new Podium 7 due to problem with the Easton wheels. Luckily we don't have such descents overhere. Mostly flats! 
Hope you get your set replaced!


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## bobonker

I run carbon clinchers (2010 Reynolds Attack) and do a fair amount of climbing. I've done repeats on Mt Diablo (10 mile climb) with no problems.

IMO, some things that are important with carbon clinchers:

1. Run brake pads that aren't famous for melting wheels. The Swissstop yellow is famous for this. I run Reynolds Cryo Blues or the new Swissstop Black Prince pad.  The Black Prince is an outstanding pad. Stops very well and doesn't heat up like the yellows do.

2. Brake hard and then let go. I never ride the brakes. When the descent is long and I need to maintain a sane speed, I'll alternate between front and rear braking. Brake front for 3 seconds, release for 3 seconds, brake rear for 3 seconds, release for 3 seconds, repeat.

3. Know their limits. If you are going to be doing riding where you are going to be forced to ride the brakes, leave the carbon clinchers at home. We do have some really steep climbs (like this) where getting down the hill is hard even with aluminum wheels and Swissstop green pads. I wouldn't even think about bringing carbon clinchers on a climb like this.

Bob


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## Frauditor

I read this post because Bike Nashbar is liquidating these wheels and I was doing some due diligence for building a bicycle for reentering the road cycling world. I can see the problem with full carbon rims while the manufacturers all make significant changes away from this style in 2014.
Regardless, I have a couple of questions for you regarding what you think about these wheels in hindsight today.
Since 5/2011 a few things have happened involving these wheels: 1) Cadel Evans won the Tour on 38mm’s, 2) the addition of thermatec surface to handle heat to 500 degrees, and 3) the wheels are still being sold across the country in brick and mortar stores.
Now, these questions are not because I want my wheel to melt and crash me face first, I am asking because I will never be in your circumstances and have my own project to work on. My hardest braking consists of braking from 40 mph to 15-20 in order to make turns on city roads and maintaining my speed under 40 mph for a couple of miles on reasonable grades (Santa Monica Mountains). 
To your point, I have ridden up and down Baldy in my prime, it takes a special person to have those kinds of guts (mine was 50 lbs lighter then) because you are on the brakes for 12+ miles enduring the 14+% grade at the top and then 1000 feet in less than two miles later down the hill. I don’t ride there anymore and know that your story ends in the first mile or so. I also know that when I left the ski lift parking lot on my decent I was trapped behind a small truck that only wanted to drive 30-35 mph … if you experienced worse, you were on the brakes hard the entire time fighting to stay under 20 miles per hour in the first 200 yards?
Here are the questions: 


How much riding did you do on those rims prior to the meltdown and how did they perform? 

What year did you first purchase them?

Did they have the thermatic surface on them?

What happened with the warranty rims they sent you in exchange (I really want to know if you rode them ever again and in what circumstances)?
 Frankly I am building out an older Merckx frame and think these wheels could be very good for what I am trying to accomplish … an aggressive weekend riding bike at 15 lbs. I would not ride any bike in the hard braking circumstance you did … especially on that Road!
Dave


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## nightfend

Cadel and the rest of the BMC team ride the Tubular version of the wheels which do not have the same overheating issues as carbon clinchers. Different animals.


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## Frauditor

Nightfend,
Thanks for that. 

As a clarification and without being histrionic, I rode that mountain when I was a racer. A small Chevy Luv pick-up truck in front of me caused me to brake so hard for so long it wrecked my Mavic MA 40’s, my Campy brake pads, and fried out the bead on my Continentals before I was anywhere near the bottom. As I reenter the cycling world 25 years later I don’t think carbon wheels belong up there, but I don’t think people knew that in 2009-2011 because the technology was new. In 2014 I am looking for a wheel that is going to get me through my 3-4 hour ride in the Los Angeles/Ventura suburbs – that includes 3k-4k of hills and not mountains. I think the quality of this wheel, away from mountain descents, is going to cover 90%+ of my rides. Currently you can pick up these wheels for $900 and take advantage of a well-built wheel that exceeds the quality and design of many other wheels at this price to significantly higher prices. From my experience, you need to have the right equipment for the right situation and riding carbons in the mountains (in 2014) sounds like a death wish, but, can they hold up to ride over a Topanga/Las Virgenes/Kanan Dume/Sepulveda/Santa Susanna pass (all the passes to exit northern Los Angeles)? That is what I am after …

Thanks,
Dave


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## deviousalex

bobonker said:


> I run carbon clinchers (2010 Reynolds Attack) and do a fair amount of climbing. I've done repeats on Mt Diablo (10 mile climb) with no problems.


Mt Diablo (you're talking about the one in NorCal right?) isn't really steep and you shouldn't need to brake that much. 

That being said I did ride Levi's Granfondo on Reynolds Assault clinchers. They explicitly warned against riding CCs for this ride. These ones had the CTg braking surface. I weighed around 150lbs and didn't have any issues, although I do descend fairly quickly. They did howl sometimes when I went down really steep (18%+) twisty descents. I ended up sending them back because of that and the hubs weren't great quality. Now I train on 26/28 spoke alloy wheels and have an okay set for racing.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you should not use latex tubes with carbon clinchers.


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