# Pacenti SL23: how bad is the tire mounting?



## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

I am very tempted by these rims. Weight seems right for me (162 lb), quality seems decent, profile is aero-ish.

The one thing that keeps me from entering my credit card # is the tire mounting. 

Right now I have one wheelset Fulcrum racing zero with Veloflex corsa 25 and another with BHS xc479 and Vittoria Open Pavé 24. I can mount new tires without levers on each of these wheels without problems and I no longer carry tire levers on the road.

Question is, could I go lever-less on the road with the SL23? How do the SL23 compare with the Fulcrum wrt tire mounting? I had read that it was hard to mount tires on the Fulcrum but never experienced any problems.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

FuelForThought said:


> Question is, could I go lever-less on the road with the SL23? How do the SL23 compare with the Fulcrum wrt tire mounting? I had read that it was hard to mount tires on the Fulcrum but never experienced any problems.


What's the big deal with carrying a tire lever or two? They are light, fairly small, and even if you can get a tire on or off without one, they're good insurance.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Rims are built between certain tolerances, and so are tires. Both Campy rims and Pacentis seem to be on the high side. Possibly the tires you quote are on the high side too, but for me using Michelin PR's, I need levers to mount them on the Campys and Pacentis. Both become easier after the tires have been used, but I still carry levers. Using very thin rim tape is important, and getting the bead down in the valley when mounting. The Pacenti is a quality item BTW.

A search would reveal several threads on this topic, here's one
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/epic-battle-pacenti-sl23-vs-cyclist-armed-tire-jack-new-mich-pro4-302234.html


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Great rims but carry tire levers. Might depend on the tire but they are difficult even with levers in my opinion.


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

I am not particularly strong, but I can get Conti GP 4000s and Michelin PRO 4 Optimums on my SL23 rims without levers.
If I'm lazy, I use a Crank Bros Speedier lever and then it gets really easy.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> for me using Michelin PR's, I need levers to mount them on the Campys and Pacentis. Both become easier after the tires have been used, but I still carry levers.[/URL]


Interesting, I could mount PR4 on the Fulcrum with fingers only.



bikerjulio said:


> A search would reveal several threads on this topic, here's one
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/epic-battle-pacenti-sl23-vs-cyclist-armed-tire-jack-new-mich-pro4-302234.html


Yep, I did search but found conflicting reports. That being said, the first few posts on the current threads are also conflicting :confused5:


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

vagabondcyclist said:


> What's the big deal with carrying a tire lever or two?


Used to carry two Pedro's levers but no longer used them (even though flats did not go away). I am not opposed to carrying them, but the stories of hour long battles with the SL23 make me real worried about roadside repairs (avec ou sans demonte-pneus).


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## Apexrider (Oct 10, 2011)

Mounting Vredestein Fortezza Tricomp on the SL23 was a pain, Schwalbe Ultremo ZX no problems at all. I would never use tire levers to mount the tire on the rim, there is a risc to puncture the inner tube.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

FuelForThought said:


> I am very
> Question is, could I go lever-less on the road with the SL23? How do the SL23 compare with the Fulcrum wrt tire mounting? I had read that it was hard to mount tires on the Fulcrum but never experienced any problems.


You could, would it be prudent? I don't get the "I don't want to carry a lever" thing. Having a lever makes the process easier, from the initial point of getting the tire over the rim to running the lever around the rim. The few grams of weight for a lever are nothing in the long run. But what do I know, when I take one of the bikes with clinchers out I carry some levers, 2 tubes, and a few pieces of tyvek. Been known to carry a patch as well.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I recently built up a set. I find getting Pro4s on and off the rim to be about the same as on the HED C2 rims, some Bontrager RXL rims, and a few others. I use no tool or lever to mount and a single lever to unmount the tire. Talc on the tube and tire beads helps a lot. I also use very thin rim tape.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

mikerp said:


> You could, would it be prudent? I don't get the "I don't want to carry a lever" thing.


You misunderstood me (not the first time such a thing happened on an internet forum!). Just quoting my post:



FuelForThought said:


> Used to carry two Pedro's levers but no longer used them (even though flats did not go away). *I am not opposed to carrying them*, but the stories of hour long battles with the SL23 make me real worried about roadside repairs (avec ou sans demonte-pneus).


I never meant to say or imply that I do not WANT to carry a lever. Just that I don't use one and therefore don't carry one. But in general, just like Apexride said, I PREFER not to use lever as I have damages tubes with them.

What I am worried about is that even with a tire lever, the SL23 might be a b*tch to change flat roadside. So far, some of the posts are reassuring. But the variability of experiences is still puzzling.:confused5:


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## Whale_520 (Aug 16, 2012)

I believe bikerjulio said it best. There are tolerances, some will fit better than others these tolerances are often chosen by the manufacturer, more on that later. Also there might be small tolerances between batches of rims but this shouldn't be noticeable. The main variable in our experience is spoke count and tension. Higher spoke count and higher tension will shrink the diameter a very small amount that is more perceivable when mounting tires.

Since we helped design these rims with Pacenti we have a bit more insight. When we get prototype rims there are up to six different rims sent with very small variations in the rim diameter and we lace them all up to test out which we like best. This lacing is done with typical builds and spokes to best guess how a rim is going to perform with the load. With the SL23 we didn't choose the largest diameter but close to. Our reasoning fell in line with Campy's in that a slightly larger diameter was better. The benefits are if you have a blowout a tire is more likely to stay on the rim and keep you upright. Also, slightly larger diameter tires are more likely to hook into the rim and will take higher pressures without the chance of failure. The drawback is it's a bit harder to mount the tire, a small price to pay IMO. 

Even so, like most people here have said, it is possible to get most tires on and off without levers. Make sure to set the tire in the center channel all the way around the rim when installing it. This gives a bit more space to roll the final bit onto the rim. 

Hope this helps you out.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

running SL23's with PR4's. The tire would not mount with veloplugs, per RBR rec's, got some stan's tape and made sure to keep the bead in the center of the rim and they went on, with some effort. haven't had a flat since so not sure how much easier it is to mount these PR4's, but the rim tape was the key.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

FuelForThought said:


> You misunderstood me (not the first time such a thing happened on an internet forum!). Just quoting my post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding.
I've posted in the other threads as, I was an early adopter of the SL23 and a long time tubular user (still my main tire type), my first run at mounting a SL23 and PR4 was tough (cloth tape, didn't keep the bead centered, and the tires were cold) with the tips (stan's, the right tape, warming the tires up) everything went fine. I've even done a tire or two without a lever (I have 2 sets of SL23's here), once the tire is on the rim and stretched a bit things are even easier (IE get a flat). Having a plastic lever makes it that much easier. I wouldn't sweat it.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Use talc, keep bead in the center groove of the rim, finish at or near the valve stem. Easy peasy.


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## wrz0170 (Sep 4, 2013)

charlox5 said:


> running SL23's with PR4's. The tire would not mount with veloplugs, per RBR rec's, got some stan's tape and made sure to keep the bead in the center of the rim and they went on, with some effort. haven't had a flat since so not sure how much easier it is to mount these PR4's, but the rim tape was the key.


Quick question on the Stan's; one or two layers? SL23/Tube/GP4000. Thanks!


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

wrz0170 said:


> Quick question on the Stan's; one or two layers? SL23/Tube/GP4000. Thanks!


I just used one layer.


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## wrz0170 (Sep 4, 2013)

charlox5 said:


> I just used one layer.


 Thank you.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

Most people use 2.


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## wrz0170 (Sep 4, 2013)

FWIW, a Noob's account of the experience and when I say Noob, I mean it was the first time mounting a tire to a rim (first time in over 27 years anyway). 

New SL23 with new, out of the box Conti GP4000S and the tube. One layer of Stan's on the rim. Hopefully one layer will be ok. 

I watched several YouTubes, including the Conti video. He made it look easy, even with levers. The tire appeared to go right on and he finished up at the valve. My tire? Wasn't having none of that. Even with levers. It fought back greatly and won. I'm guessing that video had what they call, "ideal conditions".

Second video I tried. He put a fair amount of air into tube. Placed tube inside tire and then mounted it on the one side then the other side. He massaged it in to place to where maybe 6-8" hung over. He let out some air and popped it in. Opposite of the valve. Here I had more reasonable success. Still with some effort and with the help of a lever, was able to get it it go. I then put just a bit of air back in and checked both sides to ensure I did not see any tube being pinched. 

Conclusion: Definitely about technique and honing it. I will try other techniques just to see what I like and what is easier on the fingers and thumbs. The cursing comes naturally for me. I %#¥+# curse all the time anyway


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

USE TWO LAYERS! One will usually work, but it is not strong enough for 100+ psi. It will hold for a while, but I have seen one layer blow through the spoke holes. There's very little safety factor with one layer.

Pacenti SL23 has a shallow center so there are a lot of tires that are difficult to mount. They are very well constructed rims! Use loose tires such as Conti GP4000, Schwalbe. I've mounted a Hutchinson tubeless tire (tubeless road tires are always tighter than tube-type) on them and with some fairly significant effort got one side on by hand, but used a lever for the second side.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm wondering why so many folks are afraid to take a lever to their tire/rim? I would not feel safe at all if a tire simply slip over a rim with ease. A catastrophic flat would most likely blow the tire complete out of the rim in an instant. I actually preferred that a tire does not go over a rim easy. It is absolutely OK to use levers (plural for me). You simply just need to be smart about it. 

I usually use one lever to lift the tire bead up until the lever if about 90 degree (perpendicular) to the rim (do not need to use the lever to completely lift the bead over the rim). Then with the second lever, nudge it into position right next to the 1st lever (which is perpendicular to the rim) and gently lift the 2nd lever to also about 90 degree to the rim. At this point, the bead will start to fall into the rim. Now pull the 1st lever out and repeat. Keep doing this a few times and even the most stubborn tubeless tires will mount over the most stubborn tubeless rims. 

The key is not to try to lift the tire over the rim in 1 or 2 big swoops. Take your time to slowly but surely "walk" the bead over the rim. It will also help if you wet the bead with plain water to make it a bit more slippery (do not use sugared water/ sport drink water). If you are at home, you may want to try a very diluted soap solution, but I avoid soap because I have this fear that soap might cause too much slippage once the tire is mounted.


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## Apexrider (Oct 10, 2011)

I disagree with that. Regular tire levers are designed to get a tire of the rim, not on. It has never happened that I couldn't get the tire on, sometimes it takes some more effort than other times. I also never experienced problems with a tire getting of the rim when having a flat.

If you have problems getting a tire on the rim, then use a tire bead jack or specially designed levers like some members posted in this topic: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=314033.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Good recommendation on the "tire jack". Great device. I was not even aware of such thing, and my method was based on not knowing such thing exists. Should be very handy when I need to mount tubeless tires on tubeless rims!


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

I suspect the main issue is many riders have not has the need to develop tire mounting techniques. Look at the many oem tire/rim combos where the main obstacle is holding the first tire bead from casually rolling off the rim. Quite unlike your DT465 or Campy rim where the first bead slides on with a reassuring and almost immovable "snap"

On my Neutrons I just ran velox with Conti 4000s--no need to spend the bux on Stan's.


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

I found it a bit difficult to mount a brand new tire, but never have issues changing it for flats. Luckily, I never mount a brand new tire out on the road 

I've put thousands of miles on my SL23s this year and love them. Great rims.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bwbishop said:


> I found it a bit difficult to mount a brand new tire, but never have issues changing it for flats. Luckily, I never mount a brand new tire out on the road
> 
> I've put thousands of miles on my SL23s this year and love them. Great rims.


True for regular clinchers. Their beads get old and stretched and become easier to mount. But for tubeless tires, espeically those with carbon bead, ugh, totally different story. On the plus side, a tubeless tires when used with a tubeless specific rim... will not easily detatch from the rim in an event of a flat. I've run my tubeless tire completely flat when I got a big rip (that the sealant couldn't seal) and the tire refused to detach from the rim after stopping completely. And afterward when I attempted to remove the tire, I still had to use 3 levers and lots of force to remove the tire from the rim. In this regard, I'm of the opinion that a tubeless tires when used with tubeless specific rims (however difficult they are to mount) offer a huge safety factor.

And in my experience, tires that go on a rim easily, will also detach from the rim easily in an event of a big catastrophic flat. I'm one of those who actually do not prefer a tire go on a rim too easily (as some tires simply slip on over a rim with just a medium force of one thumb).


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## Kirk Pacenti (Mar 18, 2006)

Not sure how I missed this thread, but there is some really good info here. And as always, don't hesitate to call or email me directly with comments, questions or concerns.

Not wheel related, but I thought you all might enjoy a couple throwback pictures from 2002.

Cheers, 
KP


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> And in my experience, tires that go on a rim easily, will also detach from the rim easily in an event of a big catastrophic flat. *I'm one of those who actually do not prefer a tire go on a rim too easily *(as some tires simply slip on over a rim with just a medium force of one thumb).



Same here. I had a dumb user error that resulted in a snakebite in front at 40mph. Sure glad I had new conti's mounted on Archetype rims where it rolled to a stop without the beads releasing. Also have 2 sets of Neutrons. Tight to loose, I rate my recent wheels Neutron, DT465, Archetype. Don't know where SL23 fit it.


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## RL7836 (Jun 17, 2014)

In doing my research for new wheels, Pacenti's regularly appeared as one of the best rims. However, in that research also came the horror stories of tire mounting on these rims.

Bottom line: ordered wheel with Pacenti rim, read threads on 'correct' technique, did tool-less install w/ Conti GP 4000s II's. I didn't time myself but would guess it took ~5 min. Yes, it was a bit of a pain but my expectation was that I would not even succeed since this was first time I tried w/o levers (never even heard of that before reading the forums). I didn't even use a hair dryer to warm the tire (that was one of my fall-back approaches if it was taking too long).

So, it's possible - even for a tool-less noob. :wink5: (Yes I also know that n=1 isn't necessarily significant, but it is a good start).


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## Kirk Pacenti (Mar 18, 2006)

RL7836 said:


> In doing my research for new wheels, Pacenti's regularly appeared as one of the best rims. However, in that research also came the horror stories of tire mounting on these rims.
> 
> Bottom line: ordered wheel with Pacenti rim, read threads on 'correct' technique, did tool-less install w/ Conti GP 4000s II's. I didn't time myself but would guess it took ~5 min. Yes, it was a bit of a pain but my expectation was that I would not even succeed since this was first time I tried w/o levers (never even heard of that before reading the forums). I didn't even use a hair dryer to warm the tire (that was one of my fall-back approaches if it was taking too long).
> 
> So, it's possible - even for a tool-less noob. :wink5: (Yes I also know that n=1 isn't necessarily significant, but it is a good start).


RL7836,

I am glad to hear things went so well for you. Believe it or not, your experience is typical of 99% of my customers - when using the correct technique. 

Get back to us with some pictures and a detailed ride report once you have some miles on the wheels! 

Cheers, 
KP


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> RL7836,
> I am glad to hear things went so well for you. Believe it or not, your experience is typical of 99% of my customers - when using the correct technique.
> Get back to us with some pictures and a detailed ride report once you have some miles on the wheels!
> Cheers,
> KP


I've got a pair enroute from Brandon at BHS and I haven't used a lever for any tire removal *or* replacement on any of my current or past wheelsets in living memory (15 years maybe?). It will be interesting to find out how (if?) the Pacenti differ!


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## Kirk Pacenti (Mar 18, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> I've got a pair enroute from Brandon at BHS and I haven't used a lever for any tire removal *or* replacement on any of my current or past wheelsets in living memory (15 years maybe?). It will be interesting to find out how (if?) the Pacenti differ!


Mike T., 

If that's you in your avatar, you wont have any problems mounting tires to Pacenti SL23 rims!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> Mike T.,
> If that's you in your avatar, you wont have any problems mounting tires to Pacenti SL23 rims!


Oh yeah that was taken when I was a l'ill fella.


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## tvJefe (Dec 25, 2012)

I have the SL23s. I carry the Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack and don't stress anymore.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

tvJefe said:


> I have the SL23s. I carry the Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack and don't stress anymore.


That's a tad big. The VAR jack works almost as well and is more portable. Carry it in my pocket at all times.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

I have had no problems at all mounting tires to my SL23's, just make sure the tire bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. No tools required.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> I have had no problems at all mounting tires to my SL23's, just make sure the tire bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. No tools required.


Can you get them off without levers?


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## Kirk Pacenti (Mar 18, 2006)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> I have had no problems at all mounting tires to my SL23's, just make sure the tire bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. No tools required.


^^^ It really is that easy.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Can you get them off without levers?


Never used levers, just my hands. My Reynolds Attacks are harder to mount/ dismount tires on than my SL23's. I've mounted GP4000's, Michelin Pro 4's and my favorite- Vittoria Open Corsa CX's


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Kirk Pacenti said:


> ^^^ It really is that easy.


Kirk, I have some 27h rims shipping from Brandon today and he wants feedback from me on the 18/9 hub experience as well. This will be fun. As a dedicated "no levers please!" person I'll be putting the rims, tape and well-used Vittoria OC Evo CX and brand new ones to the test. I'm willing to sacrifice thumb-skin in this experiment. As a dedicated no-lever person I can probably r&r tires as well as anyone.


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## tvJefe (Dec 25, 2012)

In all fairness, Mike T. also removes cooked pasta directly from the boiling water with his bare hands. Using a tool like a strainer is too much of a crutch.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tvJefe said:


> In all fairness, Mike T. also removes cooked pasta directly from the boiling water with his bare hands. Using a tool like a strainer is too much of a crutch.


That's just <s>fuc</s> hilarious.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Kirk, I have some 27h rims shipping from Brandon today and he wants feedback from me on the 18/9 hub experience as well. This will be fun. As a dedicated "no levers please!" person I'll be putting the rims, tape and well-used Vittoria OC Evo CX and brand new ones to the test. I'm willing to sacrifice thumb-skin in this experiment. As a dedicated no-lever person I can probably r&r tires as well as anyone.


Heh, were you a SAG wrench on Tour de Nebraska a few years ago?

Our camp had some jollies when a roadie tubeless Fusion3 needed remounted with a tube...SAG volunteered to throw it on since we didn't bring a bead-jack, we asked them if they did and they didn't know what one was...but the wrench was supremely confident he could remount it sans tools. To which we grinned and lounged out at camp and waited.

We shoulda bet him some beer as he came back 20 minutes later crestfallen and admitted he couldn't do it barehanded.


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