# Chamois life expectancy?



## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

I've been wearing a pair of The Black 
Bibs for roughly 5 months/ 1k miles. I've heard good and bad about them, personally I've never worn other bibs, and can't fault them until recently when the chamois seems to be getting thinner around the edges, and it's thinking about making a dirty joke about chafing. Obviously it's about time to replace them, but I'm wondering if I'll get more bang for my buck in terms of longevity if I spend more on a higher quality bib, or just a nicer bib while it does last?

I've been washing them after every long ride, or 2-3 short rides: hand wash, lukewarm water, no detergent, hang dry.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

One Wheel said:


> I've been wearing a pair of The Black
> Bibs for roughly 5 months/ 1k miles.


I've never heard of that brand. I'd be uber pissed if my bibs only lasted 1k mi.
My bibs (Assos) last years and thousands of miles. I usually wind up tearing them or wearing them till see thru before the chamois wears out.
And I don't do anything special to wash them. Throw them in the washer with everything else. Hang them to dry.




> I've been washing them after every long ride, or 2-3 short rides


wash your bibs after every ride!


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Never had a chamois wear out, get thin, or fail. Something else is going on.

I machine wash cold, and line dry.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

tlg said:


> wash your bibs after every ride!


30 minutes and don't even work up a sweat? I figured I would be doing more damage with too much washing. I hang them up inside out, and wash them if they're sweaty or have any visible dirt. 

I figured it was a stupid noob question, but I have to admit I'm surprised at the answers. To be clear, the middle of the pad isn't getting thin. It's just the edges, which are thinner to start with, stretching out and bunching up a little. I've worn out many pairs of pants in that exact area. they're wearing out exactly where and how I would have expected, I just wasn't sure what to expect for when.

Is a $100-200 pair of Assos or Pearl Izumi bibs actually going to last me 3-5 times as long as the $40 bibs I'm using?


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I can ride 1K miles in 5-6 weeks, so replacing bibs at that interval would get silly expensive.

the $50 AeroTech shorts I buy easily last a year or more.

try a different brand, there's a lot of options. and spending $200 is def not necessary to find something of decent quality.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

tlg said:


> I've never heard of that brand. I'd be uber pissed if my bibs only lasted 1k mi.
> My bibs (Assos) last years and thousands of miles. I usually wind up tearing them or wearing them till see thru before the chamois wears out.
> And I don't do anything special to wash them. Throw them in the washer with everything else. Hang them to dry.
> 
> ...


The Black Bibs

Check out their products, they are a pretty good quality from what I've heard. 
Your last advice is absolutely correct, wash those shorts! If you don't hand wash your shorts, it is not a bad idea to use a delicates bag to avoid snags or wear to the lycra or other delicate fabrics.


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

One Wheel said:


> 30 minutes and don't even work up a sweat? I figured I would be doing more damage with too much washing.


I'd be more worried about damage to my taint than to my chamois. Wash everything.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

ogre said:


> I'd be more worried about damage to my taint than to my chamois. Wash everything.


If they get dirty enough that they might cause any damage they get washed. But if all I've got time for that day is a 10 mile ride that usually means that when I get home I have time to hang them up but not wash them first. 

On reflection, the "wash everything every time" sentiment may be my roundabout answer: my skin is very sensitive to artificial scents, most lotions are scented, so I've avoided chamois cream. I've ridden up to 115 miles in a day with no hint of saddle sores, clearly I don't need chamois cream, but maybe my shorts do.


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

Wash your clothes in Woolite or equivalent. Don't use Tide, etc.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Peter P. said:


> Never had a chamois wear out, get thin, or fail. Something else is going on.
> 
> I machine wash cold, and line dry.


Same here, I have never had a chamois wear out before something else happened to the bibs: threading fail, tear, thread-bare. I do have one exception to that. I had a pair of Santini gel bibs where the gel insert tore and turned into a ball of goop. Had to chuck those


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

$40 bibs?!

If price equates to quality, then I think that's your problem. I buy low end Pearl Izumi, and Castelli shorts and they last years.

Start your spending on BRAND NAMES, and try spending $100 minimum, and compare.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

I run a rotation of bike shorts, so it's difficult to tell how many miles each one lasts. My chamoises do wear down eventualy, but I'm sure I get well over 1000 miles out of each pair. 

I always use unscented laundry detergents for everything and do nothing more than throw them in chamois side out with the rest of the wash -regular cycle. I always hang dry and NEVER put them in the dryer.

$40? You get what you pay for. All my shorts are over $100. Brands I'm using now are Voler and Assos - both excellent brands.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Peter P. said:


> Start your spending on BRAND NAMES, and try spending $100 minimum, and compare.





Lombard said:


> $40? You get what you pay for. All my shorts are over $100. Brands I'm using now are Voler and Assos - both excellent brands.


Yup. Pick up a pair of Assos Mille shorts on sale. You can find them for $100-120. You'll never want to buy $40 shorts again.








Assos Mille GT Bibshorts Blackseries


-For Sales and Service Text (707) 285-9196 Anytime! -The best prices guaranteed 100% of the time! -Always genuine new in box product under warranty! -We price match world wide. Text our web sales n…




bikecloset.com


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

tlg said:


> Yup. Pick up a pair of Assos Mille shorts on sale. You can find them for $100-120. You'll never want to buy $40 shorts again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


3x cost = 3+x quality? Comfort quality or durability quality? If 3x comfort, then comfort schmomfort, TBB are good enough. 3x durability I'll definitely give it a shot. 

Does my chamois cream hypothesis hold water? If it won't affect the durability of the shorts, then if it ain't broke don't fix it. If that's why I'm wearing them out I'm cheap enough to spend a little extra to figure out something that works for me.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

One Wheel said:


> 3x cost = 3+x quality? Comfort quality or durability quality?


Yes, All of the above


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## dir-t (Oct 14, 2005)

I wear Sugio shorts (aobut $80) for road riding and a handfull of different brands of baggies for MTB riding. I've NEVER worn out the chamois on any pair fof biking shorts. If anything, the elastic on the liners wears out, I get a rip at one of the seams, or a zipper stops working.

OP, something is wrong with your pants and it's not the way you're washing them.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

One Wheel said:


> Does my chamois cream hypothesis hold water? If it won't affect the durability of the shorts, then if it ain't broke don't fix it. If that's why I'm wearing them out I'm cheap enough to spend a little extra to figure out something that works for me.


There was a mention somewhere that synthetic chamois don't need lubrication; the lubrication was supposedly a throwback to natural chamois days.
I tend to think there are good arguments on both sides of the issue because even with synthetic chamois almost 100% of the market, even "greased" synthetic chamois riders still get sores.
Using cream is a personal decision that has to be based on each rider's experience.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

One Wheel said:


> Does my chamois cream hypothesis hold water? If it won't affect the durability of the shorts, then if it ain't broke don't fix it. If that's why I'm wearing them out I'm cheap enough to spend a little extra to figure out something that works for me.


No, you're wearing out your shorts quickly because you got cheap shorts.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

Lombard said:


> No, you're wearing out your shorts quickly because you got cheap shorts.


Well, if $100 shorts only last me through next summer I guess I'll just blame you 😉. In all seriousness though, I won't rag on the $40 shorts too hard. I splurged spending $350 on my bike, there's no way I would have spent $100 on my first pair of bib shorts.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

Those saying cheap shorts aren’t good seem more concerned about brand names than anything else.

$39.99 on Amazon minus another 8% coupon 
These have lasted 1020 butt-complaint-free-miles so far and still look new. I don’t wash them in anything special; they go in the wash with the rest of my clothes. They’ve been in the dryer on low heat a couple times but mostly hang dry.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Xydadx3 said:


> Those saying cheap shorts aren’t good seem more concerned about brand names than anything else.


yep, there are cheap, poorly-made items and then there's not-expensive, decently made ones...

you just have to shop around to find which is which.

the $50 shorts I currently buy are infinitely better than the spendy PearlIzumi ones I used previously. 

no way I'd spend $200 on shorts/bibs. my butt is content with what I'm using at a fraction of that cost...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Xydadx3 said:


> Those saying cheap shorts aren’t good seem more concerned about brand names than anything else.


No. Those who say that have tried cheap shorts and speak through experience.

It's absurdly laughable to think something lasts only 1000mi. That's a few weeks of riding.
My shorts last years, not weeks. Why would I spend $240 a year on 6 pairs disposable bibs.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

tlg said:


> No. Those who say that have tried cheap shorts and speak through experience.


However, that experience may be a result of privilege. It’s a little presumptuous to assume everybody has hundreds of $ to drop on shorts they’ll wear a couple times a week max when they could get something just as good and *maybe* replace it _slightly_ sooner. If someone can afford the expensive stuff, by all means buy it, wear it, enjoy it. There’s no reason to assume that’s the right route for everyone.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Xydadx3 said:


> However, that experience may be a result of privilege.
> It’s a little presumptuous to assume everybody has hundreds of $ to drop on shorts


 Privileged? lmao
Presumptuous? That's you just did that.
Nobody said spend hundreds. You've been given options for $120 that last over 10x longer than your 1000mi shorts.

That's a bargain!

It's like you didn't come here for advice from people with decades of experience .


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

tlg said:


> Nobody said spend hundreds. You've been given options for $120 that last over 10x longer than your 1000mi shorts.
> 
> That's a bargain!
> 
> It's like you didn't come here for advice from people with decades of experience .


Unfortunately I did come for advice from those more experienced, but I’m more interested in the why behind things. Most of what I’m reading is ‘because I said so’ which was likely learned from someone else using the same logic. I challenge those with decades of experience to tell us *why* they do what they do. 

Spending more isn’t a good reason to do anything unless it has real value, which hasn’t been proven yet.



Xydadx3 said:


> These have lasted 1020 butt-complaint-free-miles so far and still look new.


You may have misread my post about lasting 1000mi. I said they are like-new after 1000mi. I can have 3 pairs for the price of one pair at $120, then I don’t have to wait on the washing machine holding my one $120 pair hostage before I can ride again. Unless you mean I should spend hundreds to buy multiple pairs of the $120 shorts. I checked the math.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Xydadx3 said:


> I challenge those with decades of experience to tell us *why* they do what they do.
> 
> Spending more isn’t a good reason to do anything unless it has real value, which hasn’t been proven yet.


You seem to think we're all millionaires born wearing $300bibs
You've been told why numerous times. You choose not to accept the answers.

More money doesn't directly equate to quality. *Reputable* brands do. 



> You may have misread my post about lasting 1000mi. I said they are like-new after 1000mi.


 I read EXACTLY what you wrote...


One Wheel said:


> I've been wearing a pair of The Black
> Bibs for roughly 5 months/ 1k miles.
> 
> Obviously it's about time to replace them, but I'm wondering if I'll get more bang for my buck in terms of longevity if I spend more on a higher quality bib, or just a nicer bib while it does last?


Those of us who've used probably a dozen different brands from cheap to expensive wouldn't dream of replacing shorts after 1000mi.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

tlg said:


> I read EXACTLY what you wrote...


I have my doubts… 

…but back to the topic at hand, even the $40 shorts can last 1000’s of miles, just like the more expensive ones 🙄


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Xydadx3 said:


> …but back to the topic at hand, even the $40 shorts can last 1000’s of miles, just like the more expensive ones 🙄


 Because someone on Amazon said that?

Cool story. Go buy them. Give us a review after 1000mi.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

tlg said:


> Because someone on Amazon said that?
> 
> Cool story. Go buy them. Give us a review after 1000mi.


So you didn’t read my post? To reiterate, my review is that they’re like-new after 1000mi.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

While we're having this scintillating conversation, and while I'm stalling but definitely intending to try some nicer shorts, I'll offer a couple of observations about cheap vs. expensive beyond quality (which is what I came here to learn about).

First, if you're riding 5,000+ miles/ year you're probably retired or working a job that allows generous time off. It just takes time to ride that long, and paycheck to paycheck will get you neither that time to ride thousands of miles nor the free cash to spend hundreds trying different shorts. This is not an argument for or against expensive equipment, just an observation that the people most able to afford it are the people most likely to need it, and vice versa. 

Second, two arguments for cheap: first, if my only option was $100+ I would have continued using non-padded athletic shorts much longer. I'm glad I didn't. Second, if I had spent $100+ on bibs a year ago I would now have a nice pair with 80-90% of its life left that was 2 sizes too big. Don't rag on cheap too hard, it's got its place.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

One Wheel said:


> First, if you're riding 5,000+ miles/ year you're probably retired or working a job that allows generous time off.


Ridiculous. 
I work a full time job and never take off to ride. I have dozens of friends who do as well. We all ride well over 5k miles/year
That's only 100mi a week. 

Some people commute to work by bike. 5k miles is a drop in the bucket


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

tlg said:


> Ridiculous.
> I work a full time job and never take off to ride. I have dozens of friends who do as well. We all ride well over 5k miles/year
> That's only 100mi a week.
> 
> Some people commute to work by bike. 5k miles is a drop in the bucket


Fair enough. My impression is influenced by the fact that I live in Wisconsin, and the road riding season is reasonably ~30 weeks/ year here. My job also runs 60-80 hours/ week for most of that season. I maintain, however, that in general biking is a sport of the wealthy: as transportation it's fairly cheap, but as a hobby it's fairly expensive and very time consuming if taken seriously.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

One Wheel said:


> Fair enough. My impression is influenced by the fact that I live in Wisconsin, and the road riding season is reasonably ~30 weeks/ year here. My job also runs 60-80 hours/ week for most of that season.


Yea that's a biased comparison.
Not everyone has your circumstances.

Also bear in mind, these days millions of people also ride indoors on zwift. There's people who ride over 5k mi just on zwift. Good shorts are needed there too.



> I maintain, however, that in general biking is a sport of the wealthy: as transportation it's fairly cheap, but as a hobby it's fairly expensive and very time consuming if taken seriously.


 Yes and no.
Sure you can spend a lot on cycling equipment. But you don't need to. You definitely don't need to be wealthy.
You can buy a decent bike for $1000. If taken care of, it'll last 10yrs or more. That's less than $100/yr. Plus some basic maintenance items. But there's no cost to actually go ride it.

Compared to other sports, golf, skiing, bowling. You'll easily spend $100s a year just to do them.
A gym membership? More than $100

Riding 100mi a week isn't that time consuming. It's 5-6hrs of riding 
2hrs Tuesday. 2hrs Thursday. 2hrs Saturday.
Or 1hr every day. 
Millions of people go to the gym or jog/walk 1hr a day.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

tlg said:


> You can buy a decent bike for $1000. If taken care of, it'll last 10yrs or more. That's less than $100/yr. Plus some basic maintenance items. But there's no cost to actually go ride it.


Again, maybe my experience is biased, but it has been my observation that it costs around $200/ bike/ year for tires, lube, random parts, clothing, etc. I don't think this scales anything like linearly with the cost of the bike, so if you're riding a $5k+ bike it feels like it's free. Not so much if you're riding a <$1000 bike. 

There are certainly many more expensive hobbies, that I can agree with you on.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

If you haven't ridden bibs instead of shorts, you really need to. I have no problem spending $100+ on decent bibs because I have bought cheap ones (many years ago) and I've learned that this is one "area" you don't want to cheapen out on.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

DrSmile said:


> If you haven't ridden bibs instead of shorts, you really need to.


Seconded. I got shorts first, then replaced them with bibs. Padded shorts are better than non-padded shorts, but bibs are well worth the extra.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DrSmile said:


> If you haven't ridden bibs instead of shorts, you really need to. I have no problem spending $100+ on decent bibs because I have bought cheap ones (many years ago) and I've learned that this is one "area" you don't want to cheapen out on.


I have tried bibs and didn't like them because they are hot and chafe my shoulders. I ride padded bike shorts, not bibs. And since I don't have a dough roll, I don't have the waist band curling problem many complain about.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

One Wheel said:


> Fair enough. My impression is influenced by the fact that I live in Wisconsin, and the road riding season is reasonably ~30 weeks/ year here. My job also runs 60-80 hours/ week for most of that season. I maintain, however, that in general biking is a sport of the wealthy: as transportation it's fairly cheap, but as a hobby it's fairly expensive and very time consuming if taken seriously.


That depends. Granted it sounds like you put in a lot of extra hours at work, so getting in considerable miles can be a challenge. I don't consider myself wealthy, but I'm doing pretty well IMO. I have 7 bikes and while I have never spent more than $2,200 on any one of them (some of them were inexpensive used bikes), clothing like bike shorts and bike shoes are something I don't go cheap on. I have personally found that cheap shorts only lead to discomfort. Cheap shoes lead to foot problems. You get what you pay for in this respect.

@tlg , skiing is not expensive if you do Nordic like I do. Alpine is expensive.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't have any bibs either, I have about 12 active shorts I use +12 obsolete that I use on the moto, em, or whatever. If those were bibs, that would be a good boat downpayment. Never really saw the advantage to bibs, on the road at a break they are a hassle.
On my next amazon order, I'll get some of those in the link and get back.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> @tlg , skiing is not expensive if you do Nordic like I do. Alpine is expensive.


Sure, if you can go out your backdoor and do it. Kinda like riding a bike.
But I was referring to downhill skiing, where you have to purchase lift tickets to do it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Sure, if you can go out your backdoor and do it. Kinda like riding a bike.
> But I was referring to downhill skiing, where you have to purchase lift tickets to do it.


Nordic centers charge a fraction of what downhill centers do - that can be anywhere from $10 to $30 a day depending on region.

I don't do downhill, but others who do say you can easily spend over $100 a day at a downhill center. Not to mention that downhill equipment - skis, bindings, poles and boots cost more than twice as much as Nordic equipment.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Nordic centers charge a fraction of what downhill centers do - that can be anywhere from $10 to $30 a day depending on region.


Oh, not something I'm familiar with. We only have downhill around here. 
Even $10-30 can get expensive if you're doing it a few times a week. 
$175/mo if you go twice a week.

Glad I can ride my bike for free.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Oh, not something I'm familiar with. We only have downhill around here.
> Even $10-30 can get expensive if you're doing it a few times a week.
> $175/mo if you go twice a week.
> 
> Glad I can ride my bike for free.


Oh yeah, you're in PA. And downhill centers have the luxury of snow making. We Nordic skiers have to take what Mother Nature is willing to provide. Even up here in MA, snow can be paltry some years and necessitate a trip north to VT or NH.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

tlg said:


> Glad I can ride my bike for free.


"free"....until something breaks or maintenance is due, or you're really hungry after a long ride and the food bill = the fuel bill ... or you have to buy new clothing 

Those hidden expenses do add up, but I think its way more rewarding and a better use of my money to ride than to drive a car and pay the big oil companies! Just yesterday I saved $40+ in either car rental fees or Uber rides by biking to work and back when my car needed service. Shorts still look and feel new btw


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

After hearing here that the problem is more likely with the bibs than my treatment or expectations of them, I contacted TheBlackBibs. They say that what I'm seeing is a known problem of unknown cause, and offered an identical replacement or equal value discount code.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Peter P. said:


> Never had a chamois wear out, get thin, or fail.


^^^This. Something else invariably fails before the chamois: Either the elasticity suffers and the fabric loses its compression, or the fabric gets worn so thin as to become translucent. Either (and sometimes both) of those things have caused me to retire a pair of shorts/bibs numerous times -- though never after only 1,000 miles -- but the chamois has always still been in fairly pristine condition when those other failings have made the garment unwearable.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I have a couple of pairs of "The Black Bibs". They have several thousand miles on them and I've never seen any signs of premature wear. I'm going to assume this was a one-off issue, and it sounds like they are working with the OP to resolve it.


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## One Wheel (6 mo ago)

Finx said:


> I have a couple of pairs of "The Black Bibs". They have several thousand miles on them and I've never seen any signs of premature wear. I'm going to assume this was a one-off issue, and it sounds like they are working with the OP to resolve it.


I think it may be a batch issue. I didn't want to complain to them without finding out if I had a valid complaint first, but since I've contacted them I have no complaints with their response. They are aware of the quality issue, and working to correct it.


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## Souke-Cycling (Nov 3, 2020)

Maybe you can try SOUKE bib shorts. You may not have heard its name, but the feedback is great. The price ranges 40USD-100USD for entry to Pro level. You won't regret it. //www.souke-sports.com/collections/mens-bib-shorts.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

I've been riding since early 2013 and I'm just starting to throw away a few of the very very first clothes I bought. The stuff where I only had 2 of it so it got ridden twice a week. Now I'm not going to be throwing anything away for a while because I have 4-5 of everything for every season and 10+ of some other things. Buy quality stuff, hang dry it, and it'll last you a lonnng time.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

Xydadx3 said:


> Those saying cheap shorts aren’t good seem more concerned about brand names than anything else.





tlg said:


> No. Those who say that have tried cheap shorts and speak through experience.


Ok I'll admit a brand name may be a decent investment in certain situations, especially if obtained on sale. 

Asking for a 'friend', forgive my ignorance... what brands offer garment repair/replacement for crash damage and has anyone ever used this service? I recall reading it on a site or two but I don't recall which ones and if there are more that I haven't seen out there I'd love to hear from the collective knowledge, for my friend of course.
FWIW the 'cheap shorts' material and chamois have been just fine for the last 2000+mi, with many more expected...until ripping them open gave them an early retirement date.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Xydadx3 said:


> Ok I'll admit a brand name may be a decent investment in certain situations, especially if obtained on sale.
> 
> Asking for a 'friend', forgive my ignorance... what brands offer garment repair/replacement for crash damage and has anyone ever used this service? I recall reading it on a site or two but I don't recall which ones and if there are more that I haven't seen out there I'd love to hear from the collective knowledge, for my friend of course.
> FWIW the 'cheap shorts' material and chamois have been just fine for the last 2000+mi, with many more expected...until ripping them open gave them an early retirement date.


I know Assos does. Although their policy has got more stringent.
I have used their crash replacement in the past. It used to be lifetime. But now it's just 30 days.






Customer Assistance


Customer Assistance




www.assos.com




_For the first 30 days following the purchase of an ASSOS product, we will repair or replace the item free of charge if damaged during a crash. Simply select CRASH POLICY in the drop-down menu of the CONTACT US form and provide the requested information. We will then contact you regarding your free replacement product.

Beyond the initial 30-day period, we offer an affordable repair service. In many cases, crash-damaged ASSOS products can be repaired, though we will reasonably charge for this service. Use the CONTACT US form to reach us regarding the repair._


As far as repair, I dunno. I imagine it's hard/impossible to repair torn spandex. But if it's a separated seam or torn chamois they could probably repair that. 

Assos also has a 2 year warranty. I had a pair of bibs that was getting tears/holes in the spandex in the lower back after a year, and they replaced them. I didn't even have to return them and now they're trainer shorts.


Found this. Not mine.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

It's not hard to repair torn spandex. I've done it.
The trick is, you need an old pair of shorts to scavange a piece of spandex fabric. I keep an old pair for such repairs.
Here's one video example which I emulated.
Pay attention to the direction of the patch material; it may stretch more in one direction than another direction. Give it, and your torn shorts, a tug.
Orient your patch in the same direction if you can.
It's a stupid easy repair which is durable and doesn't look like a hack job.


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## Xydadx3 (4 mo ago)

Rapha says they repair past 30 days


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