# Difference Between A Chinarello and a Pinarello



## southparkcycles

For those that have wondered about the frames on Ebay, here is the difference:

We have become aware of several counterfeit Pinarello frames making their way into the United States. Some of these frames are branded and painted to look like a Pinarello, but have obviously not been subject to the strict quality control and testing that genuine Pinarello frames must go through. Examples we have uncovered are easily recognized as they do not have Italian threaded bottom brackets, do not use proprietary Pinarello headsets and with imitation Dogma frames, accept a traditional round seat post.

Typically these frames are being supplied without the small parts, such as the bb cable guides, the seat post clamps and, in some cases the rear derailleur hangers. Genuine Pinarello parts typically do not fit on these frames.

It is important to realize these are not Pinarello frames, are not made in the Pinarello factory, are not made from the proprietary materials that are only available to Pinarello and are not subject to Pinarello's stringent quality controls. Therefore, they will in no way perform like a Pinarello bike nor can their safety or suitability for use be determined. 

Since the origin of these frames cannot be determined there is almost certainly no manufacturer's warranty or liability insurance in place to protect buyers in cases of catastrophic failure. There are several instances on the internet of failures of counterfeit frames. As always, to be certain that you have a genuine Pinarello, be sure to deal with an authorized Pinarello dealer.


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## vontress

Nice to have one place for all this info. I was 99% sure that they were quite different.


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## foofighter

that should be good for the would-be shopper looking to buy a "great deal" 

you should post this up on your site with pictures side-by-side to show people what to look out for.


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## rhauft

Mods should sticky this.


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## SteelSix

i have seen a chinarello and real one in the 2011 CDE colours (I own a 537) - the chinarello is easily spotted. it was without the shiny stick on pinarello decal on the head tube - the red was not the "diamond finish" glitter paint - wrong BB - wrong headtube - the naked carbon fibre bits were not the pinarello weave - the seatpost was round and did not have the proprietry DOGMA post clamp nor did it have the other branded accessories. Frankly you can tell the real ones were painted by italians and the fake ones were painted by well...


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## foofighter

you have to think though, unless you're stopped and examining the bike up close you wouldnt know if you were just riding past


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## spas

Actually you would - when you ride past the Chinarello broken on the side of the road, you would easily be able to tell it is a fake 



foofighter said:


> you have to think though, unless you're stopped and examining the bike up close you wouldnt know if you were just riding past


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## foofighter

lol ^^^


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## PlatyPius

Sticky this, I say. It's nice to have the actual differences listed for future reference.

So much for the "extra production going out the door" theory...


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## robdamanii

southparkcycles said:


> For those that have wondered about the frames on Ebay, here is the difference:
> 
> We have become aware of several counterfeit Pinarello frames making their way into the United States. Some of these frames are branded and painted to look like a Pinarello, but have obviously not been subject to the strict quality control and testing that genuine Pinarello frames must go through. Examples we have uncovered are easily recognized as they do not have Italian threaded bottom brackets, do not use proprietary Pinarello headsets and with imitation Dogma frames, accept a traditional round seat post.
> 
> Typically these frames are being supplied without the small parts, such as the bb cable guides, the seat post clamps and, in some cases the rear derailleur hangers. Genuine Pinarello parts typically do not fit on these frames.
> 
> It is important to realize these are not Pinarello frames, are not made in the Pinarello factory, are not made from the proprietary materials that are only available to Pinarello and are not subject to Pinarello's stringent quality controls. Therefore, they will in no way perform like a Pinarello bike nor can their safety or suitability for use be determined.
> 
> Since the origin of these frames cannot be determined there is almost certainly no manufacturer's warranty or liability insurance in place to protect buyers in cases of catastrophic failure. There are several instances on the internet of failures of counterfeit frames. As always, to be certain that you have a genuine Pinarello, be sure to deal with an authorized Pinarello dealer.


Christ, I've been trying to point this out to the "it's all the same frame" fools for months.

Glad to see an actual dealer who's seen and handled these things weigh in. Thank you sir, for proving the point that you get what you pay for.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## robdamanii

PlatyPius said:


> Sticky this, I say. It's nice to have the actual differences listed for future reference.
> 
> So much for the "extra production going out the door" theory...


C'mon Platy. Don't you know that the chinarello people are just "fighting the man, who's artificially inflating the price of everything??" Remember, we're just the idiots who actually buy legitimate, quality products. They're the forward thinking global economic forces that will shape the future.


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## SteelSix

spas said:


> Actually you would - when you ride past the Chinarello broken on the side of the road, you would easily be able to tell it is a fake


apart from the above - the diamond finish is not present on chinarello's - and it is quite visible when out on the road - that is the eaiest way to tell


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## vladvm

southparkcycles said:


> For those that have wondered about the frames on Ebay, here is the difference:
> 
> Examples we have uncovered are easily recognized as they do not have Italian threaded bottom brackets,


Look! An ebay frame with italian threaded bottom bracket

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Full-Carbon-3K-W...R&hash=item45f8a1e082&clk_rvr_id=244349023657


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## PlatyPius

vladvm said:


> Look! An ebay frame with italian threaded bottom bracket
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/Full-Carbon-3K-W...R&hash=item45f8a1e082&clk_rvr_id=244349023657



Look! A frame that STILL isn't a real Pinarello, no matter how much you want it to be!

Just be happy with your fake and stop trying to make it more than it is....


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## robdamanii

vladvm said:


> Look! An ebay frame with italian threaded bottom bracket
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/Full-Carbon-3K-W...R&hash=item45f8a1e082&clk_rvr_id=244349023657


Look! Another Chinese piece of sh*t! 

Enjoy your junk, but leave the rest of us honest folks to our dealer purchased, warranty laden frames of glory.

:thumbsup:


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## SteelSix

vladvm said:


> Look! An ebay frame with italian threaded bottom bracket
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/Full-Carbon-3K-W...R&hash=item45f8a1e082&clk_rvr_id=244349023657


if you cant tell the difference between that frame and a real Pinarello you don't deserve the latter! 

It doesnt have the most labelled bb, seat clamp, headset etc. The rear chain stays arent shaped correctly, the top tube is way off, the BoB Dogma has the labels done in carbon weave on the frame etc etc etc. 

If anyone thinks that its a good idea to ride that frame i'm sorry but you deserve the catastrophic frame failure that comes your way. Also it wont ride the same as the carbon a) isnt the same proprietary Torayaca carbon b) isnt laid up the same way or in the same shape 3) isnt supported by a 3 year frame warranty. 

Chinarello's are for the cycling equivalent of people who think its the same to drive a corolla with a 911 body kit as the real thing...


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## Argentius

Next you will tell me that the free Rolex I got from that e-mail that I was sent isn't real, I won that thing fair and square, just had to pay a $29.99 processing and shipping fee!


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## vladvm

SteelSix said:


> if you cant tell the difference between that frame and a real Pinarello you don't deserve the latter!


I did not say it's pinarello. It's a chinarello princess


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## vladvm

SteelSix said:


> Chinarello's are for the cycling equivalent of people who think its the same to drive a corolla with a 911 body kit as the real thing...


More like driving a porche with corolla engine:thumbsup:


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## RC28

spas said:


> Actually you would - when you ride past the Chinarello broken on the side of the road, you would easily be able to tell it is a fake


Hmmm...interesting. Considering that I've seen at least 3 broken real Princes and Dogmas in my neck of the woods (from minor crashes where other, ahem, less expensive bikes survived intact).I've seen Cannondale SuperSixes and others too. Stories of broken Chinarellos , considering how many people appear to be purchasing them, seem to be consistent with stories of brand name frames . Broken Treks are not that rare (remember their issue with broken steerers several months ago on the 6 series Madone?). And don't get me started on broken Cervelos...

Even in the threads in this forum, most issues seem to center on QC issues such as misaligned cable guides, cable adjuster bosses and threads that weren't properly masked prior to paint.

There's one additional feature that the OP missed: the Chinarellos use a clamp on FD as opposed to a braze on. Some earlier examples had external rear brake cable routing too. Looking closely, the frames are more similar to the FP than the Dogma as FP frames do have a round seat tube just like the Chinarellos. Frame weight , from references in this and other forums, seems to be about equal to the Dogma. 

Granted, some of the painted examples of these frames are not the greatest, but the most recent efforts have greatly improved. Several guys around here have bought a few and they look quite good. Not original issue good but very , very close. 

SteelSix mentioned that you can tell that the real ones were painted by Italians...glad he didn't make that statement in the 80s or 90s , when Italian frame finishes were not that great. Colnagos particularly...sometimes you could get examples that looked like they were painted by a 12 year old.

Mind you, I do not have one of these frames but I have been following the threads here and in other forums and felt the need to bring some additional info to this thread.

BTW, when did a frame having an Italian BB become synonymous with a frame having a good BB???


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## DiegoMontoya

I'm not sure why the "extra inventory going out the back door" theory persists, other than helping Chinarello owners feel better about their purchase. Pinarellos are made by Carbotec in Taiwan. Chinarellos are made by Flybike (former Carbotec and Martec employees) in China. People buying these things from Hong Fu, Deng Fu, Kung Fu or whatever are just getting them from middlemen. The fake frames are made by Flybike.

Buying a Chinarello painted like a Dogma or a Prince is exceedingly lame. At some point, people have to think "how would I feel if my employees stole my intellectual property and set up a competing shop selling products with my brand on them"?


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## DiegoMontoya

vladvm said:


> More like driving a porche with corolla engine:thumbsup:


That's exactly what you're driving. A "porche".


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## RC28

DiegoMontoya said:


> Buying a Chinarello painted like a Dogma or a Prince is exceedingly lame. At some point, people have to think "how would I feel if my employees stole my intellectual property and set up a competing shop selling products with my brand on them"?


Kind of like how Reynolds is upset at Edge/Enve???


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## rhauft

RC28 said:


> Kind of like how Reynolds is upset at Edge/Enve???


No, bad analogy. ENVE's have their own logos and are manufactured in Utah, not cheap knock-off Reynolds logos on cheap Chinese knock-off rims. 
Which I'm sure if you look hard enough, are available on the Bay of Flea.


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## rhauft

Argentius said:


> Next you will tell me that the free Rolex I got from that e-mail that I was sent isn't real, I won that thing fair and square, just had to pay a $29.99 processing and shipping fee!


"Some say" Your $29.99 Folex is made in the same factory as the real Rolex.


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## RC28

rhauft said:


> No, bad analogy. ENVE's have their own logos and are manufactured in Utah, not cheap knock-off Reynolds logos on cheap Chinese knock-off rims.
> Which I'm sure if you look hard enough, are available on the Bay of Flea.


Actually, it's a pretty good analogy. Remember the lawsuit between Reynolds and Edge/Enve? It was specifically related to intellectual property from Reynolds (former employer) used at Edge/Enve (new company).


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## robdamanii

They're both intellectual property issues. Reynolds/Enve was a case where both companies were producing good quality product. Pinarello/Chinese Crap is just a case of copying a shape and producing a garbage product, then branding it as genuine.


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## rhauft

RC28 said:


> Actually, it's a pretty good analogy. Remember the lawsuit between Reynolds and Edge/Enve? It was specifically related to intellectual property from Reynolds (former employer) used at Edge/Enve (new company).


I've owned 2 sets of Reynolds Carbon DV46's and 3 sets of ENVE 38C, 45C & 65C's so I consider myself to be fairly well versed on these wheels. 
Not from a legal standpoint as I am not a lawyer.

I disagree on two counts:

1) ENVE does not misrepresent itself as a Reynolds product.

2) ENVE is a better product than Reynolds (IMHO)

These fake Chinese knock-off "Chinarellos" are misrepresenting them self as something they are not to increase their value. That is fraud.


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## RC28

robdamanii said:


> Pinarello/Chinese Crap is just a case of copying a shape and producing a garbage product, then branding it as genuine.


The fact that they are fake does not necessarily mean that they're crap/garbage. Even brand name stuff can be crap.

Case in point: Cervelos, most General Motors cars, etc. Even Apple puts out a few turds (I'm on my 3rd IPhone...still crappy reception and hung apps, but I digress).


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## RC28

rhauft said:


> I've owned 2 sets of Reynolds Carbon DV46's and 3 sets of ENVE 38C, 45C & 65C's so I consider myself to be fairly well versed on these wheels.
> Not from a legal standpoint as I am not a lawyer.
> 
> I disagree on two counts:
> 
> 1) ENVE does not misrepresent itself as a Reynolds product.
> 
> 2) ENVE is a better product than Reynolds (IMHO)
> 
> These fake Chinese knock-off "Chinarellos" are misrepresenting them self as something they are not to increase their value. That is fraud.


I agree with you on point #1 but point #2 is just your opinion, not a fact. The Chinarellos are being sold unpainted for a similar price to all the other chinese generic carbon frames out there. Some of the sellers only charge $40 for the additional paint. I don't think that they're increasing their value that much. They just want to sell them, period. Let me make myself clear: I am not advocating that what the Chinarello sellers is correct, ethical or whatever you want to call it. I'm just trying to state facts since most of this discussion (as most things , really) seems to be driven not by facts but by opinion and personal feelings. NTTAWWT.


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## providince

You guys are so funny. Maybe if you guys rode more instead of worried about other people's bikes, you wouldn't have a Corrola engine in your Porsche. 
Go outside and work on your motor.


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## PlatyPius

providince said:


> You guys are so funny. Maybe if you guys rode more instead of worried about other people's bikes, you wouldn't have a Corrola engine in your Porsche.
> Go outside and work on your motor.


Why can no one see the larger picture?

No one is "worried about other people's bikes", we're addressing illegal and unethical behaviour as a whole.

Counterfeiting is illegal.
Buying a known counterfeit makes one a poseur - you want to appear to have a $14,000 bike while only paying for a turd.

Point #2: Most of these people are posting during working hours. Stealing a few minutes to browse RBR during down time is one thing; leaving work, kitting up, and going for a bike ride during work hours is something completely different.


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## providince

So in an attempt to preach ethics about stealing, I'm sure no one is stealing from their employers by using work time to read and respond to their personal hobby forum? I love The Internet. It gives everyone a voice. Always interesting to see how people use it.


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## PlatyPius

providince said:


> So in an attempt to preach ethics about stealing, I'm sure no one is stealing from their employers by using work time to read and respond to their personal hobby forum? I love The Internet. It gives everyone a voice. Always interesting to see how people use it.


I'm stealing from myself.

When I worked as a web designer/developer, I had a lot of down time to surf the net.

People who work at home can do what they want for the most part.

Lots of people have jobs where they have time and permission to surf a bit.

What's your point?


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## providince

Interesting. So because someone's from home they can do what they want? Because you are the owner you shouldn't spend that time making your business better? Don't owners owe their employees that? You know, the employees who support their families via that business? Of course your point revolves around companies and the loss they incur via replicas, right? What basis do you have to support that opinion? Forbes, and research from northwestern disagree with your belief. 

http://mobile.forbes.com/device/art...ci-cmo-network-renee-richardson-gosline.html?

And, boom goes the dynamite.


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## RC28

providince said:


> Interesting. So because someone's from home they can do what they want? Because you are the owner you shouldn't spend that time making your business better? Don't owners owe their employees that? You know, the employees who support their families via that business? Of course your point revolves around companies and the loss they incur via replicas, right? What basis do you have to support that opinion? Forbes, and research from northwestern disagree with your belief.
> 
> http://mobile.forbes.com/device/art...ci-cmo-network-renee-richardson-gosline.html?
> 
> And, boom goes the dynamite.


That boom is the sound of this thread self-destructing...


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## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> I agree with you on point #1 but point #2 is just your opinion, not a fact. The Chinarellos are being sold unpainted for a similar price to all the other chinese generic carbon frames out there. Some of the sellers only charge $40 for the additional paint. I don't think that they're increasing their value that much. They just want to sell them, period. Let me make myself clear: I am not advocating that what the Chinarello sellers is correct, ethical or whatever you want to call it. I'm just trying to state facts since most of this discussion (as most things , really) seems to be driven not by facts but by opinion and personal feelings. NTTAWWT.


Counterfeiting (i.e. painting a frame as a Pinarello for $40) certainly does increase the appeal of the frame. And the fact is, counterfeiting, in any way, shape or form is unethical.


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## RC28

robdamanii said:


> And the fact is, counterfeiting, in any way, shape or form is unethical.


And I think I made it very clear in my previous post that I was not supporting it.


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## robdamanii

providince said:


> Interesting. So because someone's from home they can do what they want? Because you are the owner you shouldn't spend that time making your business better? Don't owners owe their employees that? You know, the employees who support their families via that business? Of course your point revolves around companies and the loss they incur via replicas, right? What basis do you have to support that opinion? Forbes, and research from northwestern disagree with your belief.
> 
> http://mobile.forbes.com/device/art...ci-cmo-network-renee-richardson-gosline.html?
> 
> And, boom goes the dynamite.


This thread has zero to do with "the company losing out." This thread has everything to do with the people buying these counterfeits are doosh posers.

I don't think I even need to comment on the people who defend these moral midgets, either.


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## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> And I think I made it very clear in my previous post that I was not supporting it.


But the point is, it doesn't matter how "good" those items are. They can be better than the original, but the fact that it is a counterfeit item makes it unethical to purchase.

By and large, most of the things that come out of these factories have issues with resins, poor finishing, crappy paint jobs, crooked dropouts, etc etc.. That does not speak well of how well made they are, and sure as hell doesn't give any confidence in a product that you're essentially trusting your life to.


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## providince

You are clearly a master debater. Way to make your point about your superiority via name calling. Well done. Thanks for the laughs today. I look forward to your next post.


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## robdamanii

providince said:


> You are clearly a master debater. Way to make your point about your superiority via name calling. Well done. Thanks for the laughs today. I look forward to your next post.


Sadly, apologists like you don't get it. There is no debate. Buying counterfeit is wrong. 

End of discussion.


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## providince

Chills. Good job Captain America. Way to make the world a better place. You are making a difference. Keep fighting the good fight. Haha.


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## robdamanii

providince said:


> Chills. Good job Captain America. Way to make the world a better place. You are making a difference. Keep fighting the good fight. Haha.


No argument for buying counterfeit crap, so you mock the message.

Now I KNOW your opinion is a waste of bandwidth.


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## providince

Actually I made an argument and included research. I also commented on your Ad Hominem attacks. (feel free to look that up.)
You remind me of that kid in middle school who wanted to be the crossing guard. If you don't find that funny, my guess is it's because you were that kid.


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## PlatyPius

providince said:


> Interesting. So because someone's from home they can do what they want? Because you are the owner you shouldn't spend that time making your business better? Don't owners owe their employees that? You know, the employees who support their families via that business? Of course your point revolves around companies and the loss they incur via replicas, right? What basis do you have to support that opinion? Forbes, and research from northwestern disagree with your belief.
> 
> http://mobile.forbes.com/device/art...ci-cmo-network-renee-richardson-gosline.html?
> 
> And, boom goes the dynamite.



Handbags and bicycles are very different.

I have not seen any owners of counterfeit bikes coming in and buying the real thing. If they replace their fake, they usually buy a Trek/Specialized/Cannondale. Because they're cheaper. Because they can't afford the real thing, for the most part.


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## rhauft

Wondering if these moral midgets split their time debating the merits of knock-offs on the Pinarello forums and the Rolex/Cartier/Breitling/Ferrari/Porsche/Gucci/Prada/Apple forums?

What you ride/wear is between you and your God.
Me and my God say you're a thick headed, monobrowed poseur.


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## vladvm

DiegoMontoya said:


> That's exactly what you're driving. A "porche".


i know, but I kinda wish my engine is at the same level :wink5:


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## PlatyPius

There have been a number of these threads, and I still don't "get" it. 

Many people seem to think that stealing is ok, as long as THEY benefit from it. Copying a frame and making it look like the real thing IS stealing. It's theft of design, theft of brand recognition, and apparently that's ok IF it's a big company. Steal a guy's car, house, or job and he'd kill you. Stealing from big companies is ok, though.

People are so morally bankrupt that it scares me sometimes.


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## robdamanii

PlatyPius said:


> Handbags and bicycles are very different.
> 
> I have not seen any owners of counterfeit bikes coming in and buying the real thing. If they replace their fake, they usually buy a Trek/Specialized/Cannondale. Because they're cheaper. Because they can't afford the real thing, for the most part.


This.

The other problem is that because of foolish apologists like Providence there, the cycling community at large doesn't seem to give a crap if someone has a fake. There's no pressure from others to go an buy the real thing. The attitude of "it's all good, we're all brothers riding our bikes, MAAAANNNNN!" is basically letting people off the hook for purchasing counterfeit junk.


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## vladvm

robdamanii said:


> "it's all good, we're all brothers riding our bikes


+1 ride, it's all good.


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## robdamanii

vladvm said:


> +1 ride, it's all good.


Wow...no better than the Tea Party. 

It's even better when I dissuaded a guy in the local club from wasting money on one of these piece of crap ebay fames. He, like many foolish people in the chinese junk thread believe there's no difference between the Pinarello at the LBS and the ebay version. A few minutes of discussing it with him, and he's A) satisfied with his carbon/steel Allez and B) realized that you get what you pay for.

Glad to have directed him to a local shop that will take care of him, put him on a good, solid machine, size him properly and be there for after sales support.


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## rhauft

robdamanii said:


> The attitude of "it's all good, we're all brothers riding our bikes, MAAAANNNNN!"


Not sure what planet you ride on, but on my planet, all my riding "brothers" want to rip my legs off and beat me over the head with them.  Especially when I'm on my (real) Dogma... If someone showed up on our local house of pain "love ride" on a knock off, we'd most likely change the time and place of the ride without informing them.


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## RC28

robdamanii said:


> Wow...no better than the Tea Party.
> 
> It's even better when I dissuaded a guy in the local club from wasting money on one of these piece of crap ebay fames.


See? There you go again...as I mentioned before, just because they are fake does not mean they are crap. There are lots and lots of good feedback (and bad feedback just like with any REAL brand) in the threads here and elsewhere.



robdamanii said:


> He, like many foolish people in the chinese junk thread believe there's no difference between the Pinarello at the LBS and the ebay version.


Actually, many of them DO know the difference and are willing to take the risk for spending less money.



robdamanii said:


> A few minutes of discussing it with him, and he's A) satisfied with his carbon/steel Allez and B) realized that you get what you pay for.


Just like the people with broken Cervelos and Treks get what they pay for? Especially the ones with the broken steerers on the Madone 6 last year...when they were so bold as to tell people that they were using incompatible stems and that they should stick to Bontrager stems for the most part.



robdamanii said:


> Glad to have directed him to a local shop that will take care of him, put him on a good, solid machine, size him properly and be there for after sales support.


Your logic seems to indicate that you're against anybody that purchases a frame from anybody other than a LBS, even if it's a legit frame.


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## RC28

rhauft said:


> Not sure what planet you ride on, but on my planet, all my riding "brothers" want to rip my legs off and beat me over the head with them.  Especially when I'm on my (real) Dogma... If someone showed up on our local house of pain "love ride" on a knock off,* we'd most likely change the time and place of the ride without informing them*.


RRRREAAAAALLLYYYY????? Even if they can beat the crap out of you on a , gasp, lesser frame????


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## providince

I love you guys. You make me feel so much better about me and the people I know. Gotta love the Internet tough guys. 
Platy, I appreciate your n=1 observation. Out of curiosity, is it possible none of your "poor" customers bought a pinarello from your store because you don't sell them? Just curious. 
And people would change the ride time because of the frame someone showed up on. At best very embarrassing for you if you did that but more than likely a disingenuous answer. 
Carry on with your antics.


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## vladvm

rhauft said:


> Not sure what planet you ride on, but on my planet, all my riding "brothers" want to rip my legs off and beat me over the head with them.  Especially when I'm on my (real) Dogma... If someone showed up on our local house of pain "love ride" on a knock off, we'd most likely change the time and place of the ride without informing them.


Best reply !

//thread


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## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> See? There you go again...as I mentioned before, just because they are fake does not mean they are crap. There are lots and lots of good feedback (and bad feedback just like with any REAL brand) in the threads here and elsewhere.
> 
> Actually, many of them DO know the difference and are willing to take the risk for spending less money.
> 
> Just like the people with broken Cervelos and Treks get what they pay for? Especially the ones with the broken steerers on the Madone 6 last year...when they were so bold as to tell people that they were using incompatible stems and that they should stick to Bontrager stems for the most part.
> 
> Your logic seems to indicate that you're against anybody that purchases a frame from anybody other than a LBS, even if it's a legit frame.


Never once did I say that large manufacturers do not have issues as well. It's well known that there have been runs of Treks, Cervelos, etc etc with manufacturing issues. The difference of "you get what you pay for" is that if you do break a Cervelo or a Trek, you can take it to a shop, have the shop and/or rep in your corner in hopes of getting a warranty. If that fails, the alternative is a $300 repair from Calfree, which makes sense on a $3000 frame. Chinese junk? Toss it in the trash and go about your merry way, buying another one. Forget the Calfree repair, it will probably cost you as much as the frame. Maybe it's just me, but bikes are not meant to be disposable like toilet paper.

On the issue of safety, I have one life. If you're a cat, or a daredevil, go ahead and ride some unknown hunk of plastic. I prefer to live most of my life intact.

And finally, I have no problem with online retailers. For the most part, there is no customer service from them, but you get that (again) when price is your only criterion you base your purchase on. If you want service, fitting, etc etc, you go to a LBS. Since said person had no clue what geometry or size frame he would even buy, it makes far more sense for him to visit someone who has a clue, as opposed to buying something online and regretting it later.

By all means, if you want to put a piece of crap underneath you, that's your choice. I'd still laugh at you if you showed up to a group ride on a counterfeit Pinarello, and I'd still call you a fool and a poser for buying one. If you can't afford the real thing, then buy a lesser model, brand or material. Nobody is entitled to ride a $10,000 bike, so the excuse of "I couldn't afford it" doesn't make it ok to buy a counterfeit.


----------



## robdamanii

From the "chinese junk" thread:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=3423483#post3423483



Jesserue said:


> vladvm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have been away for awhile. still enjoying my chinarello...
> 
> and for those looking for chinarello with italian thread bottom bracket, they are available on ebay
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/Full-Carbon-3K-W...R&hash=item45f8a1e082&clk_rvr_id=244349023657
> 
> 
> 
> I bought this frame, verified that it was Italian threads beforehand with the seller, and received a frame with English threads. Be very careful with this buyer. Frame needed major work on the dropouts, rear brake mount, had a chip in the seat stay, clearcoat was very poor. I would not buy from them again.
Click to expand...

Sounds just like a real Pinarello, right? Can't imagine how the real thing could be any better. 

You certainly do get what you pay for.


----------



## rhauft

vladvm said:


> Best reply !
> //thread


Thanks, nice to see that someone here still has a sense of humor and can connote sarcasm.

Some of the rest of these folks really need to switch to decaf (cough providence/RC28 cough)


----------



## rhauft

RC28 said:


> RRRREAAAAALLLYYYY????? Even if they can beat the crap out of you on a , gasp, lesser frame????


I read that the 1st sign of early onset alzheimer's/dementia is the inability to detect sarcasm... Perhaps this will help you 

Ride more & switch to decaf :idea:


----------



## RC28

rhauft said:


> I read that the 1st sign of early onset alzheimer's/dementia is the inability to detect sarcasm... Perhaps this will help you
> 
> Ride more & switch to decaf :idea:


I won't even go into the response that seems to deserve.


----------



## robdamanii

rhauft said:


> I read that the 1st sign of early onset alzheimer's/dementia is the inability to detect sarcasm... Perhaps this will help you
> 
> Ride more & switch to decaf :idea:



Ok, now this /\ is pretty damn funny. :thumbsup:


----------



## RC28

robdamanii said:


> Never once did I say that large manufacturers do not have issues as well. .


Never said you did, I was just providing an example.


robdamanii said:


> It's well known that there have been runs of Treks, Cervelos, etc etc with manufacturing issues. The difference of "you get what you pay for" is that if you do break a Cervelo or a Trek, you can take it to a shop, have the shop and/or rep in your corner *in hopes of getting a warrant*y.


Again, tell that to the folks with the broken steerers (some on Trek sponsored teams, mind you!) that were told that the issue was incompatible stems and bad assembly (again, from Trek sponsored shops and mechanics). Of course, they went and beefed up the steerers with no admission of guilt, but I digress.



robdamanii said:


> If that fails, the alternative is a $300 repair from Calfree, which makes sense on a $3000 frame. Chinese junk? Toss it in the trash and go about your merry way, buying another one. Forget the Calfree repair, it will probably cost you as much as the frame. * Maybe it's just me*, but bikes are not meant to be disposable like toilet paper.


True. And at that rate, to some people it makes sense since it will take 10 broken frames to equal the cost of the new original one. They can live with those odds. The "maybe it's just me" part, you're right...it's your opinion and you're entitled to have it, just like I do and the people who have the frames do.



robdamanii said:


> On the issue of safety, I have one life. If you're a cat, or a daredevil, go ahead and ride some unknown hunk of plastic. * I prefer to live most of my life intac*t.


I agree with you. Again, I do not have these frames. But like I said, I know people who do and they are quite happy with them. To the extent that (and I'm not making this up) that the owners of REAL Pinarellos were actually psyched to see them and wanted to buy them so they could have a spare (disposable as you aptly call them) . Again, on the "I prefer to live most of my life intact" I agree with your opinion. It is the same as mine...but it is still an opinion. People who downhill ski, jump off bridges and race cars have a different opinion.



robdamanii said:


> And finally, I have no problem with online retailers. For the most part, there is no customer service from them, but you get that (again) when price is your only criterion you base your purchase on. If you want *service, fitting, etc etc, you go to a LBS*. Since said person had no clue what geometry or size frame he would even buy,* it makes far more sense for him to visit someone who has a clue*, as opposed to buying something online and regretting it later.


Knowing the some of the shops around here and in some other places I've been to the abbreviation "LBS" and the phrase "have a clue" do not belong in the same sentence. I don't want to derail this even further by talking about LBS value or whatever. I've been to good shops (I'm sure, based on Platypus' input in these forums that his is one of them, for example) but these days they are a dying breed.



robdamanii said:


> By all means,* if you want to put a piece of crap underneath you*, that's your choice..


Jeez, reading comprehension, please! I DO NOT want to buy one and again, the fact that they're fake does not necessarily mean they're crap!



robdamanii said:


> I*'d still laugh at you if you showed up to a group ride on a counterfeit Pinarello, and I'd still call you a fool and a poser for buying one*. If you can't afford the real thing, then buy a lesser model, brand or material. Nobody is entitled to ride a $10,000 bike, so the excuse of "I couldn't afford it" doesn't make it ok to buy a counterfeit.


I would absolutely LOVE to see that!

Again, interestingly enough, of all the people that have seen my friends' Chinarellos, the only one (over a period of 2 months) that has said anything was the manager of the local Pinarello dealer. And you know what he said? "I'd get one!"


----------



## providince

You guys have made my day. Thank you.


----------



## mrbubbles

Robdamanii: Chinese crap! Chinese crap! Chinese crap! (Like a broken record)

:lol: I wonder where most of the carbon frames come from? Oh right, China. Magical Italian hands of White people are better at making bikes than everybody else.


----------



## robdamanii

RC28 said:


> Knowing the some of the shops around here and in some other places I've been to the abbreviation "LBS" and the phrase "have a clue" do not belong in the same sentence. I don't want to derail this even further by talking about LBS value or whatever. I've been to good shops (I'm sure, based on Platypus' input in these forums that his is one of them, for example) but these days they are a dying breed.
> 
> 
> 
> Jeez, reading comprehension, please! I DO NOT want to buy one and again, the fact that they're fake does not necessarily mean they're crap!
> 
> 
> 
> I would absolutely LOVE to see that!
> 
> Again, interestingly enough, of all the people that have seen my friends' Chinarellos, the only one (over a period of 2 months) that has said anything was the manager of the local Pinarello dealer. And you know what he said? "I'd get one!"


1: Good LBSs are a dying breed. You're quite correct. We're blessed to have several good ones nearby, so it's silly to not utilize them.

2: Sorry, I was referring to the universal "you" in terms of buying a piece of crap. 

3: Good for the shop owner. Good for the riders. If they care so little about the ethics of buying a counterfeit frame that rips off a legitimate manufacturer, Eff 'em. They're nobody I'd ever wish to know or ride with.


----------



## smartyiak

RC28 said:


> Just like the people with broken Cervelos and Treks get what they pay for?


My position on buying counterfeit goods has been made (in the e-bay clothing threads), so I won't comment, but...

My Cervelo Soloist developed a crack in the bottom bracket weld (it's an aluminum one). I took it to a Cervelo dealer (not the one that I bought the bike from). Within a month, I had a new frame w/ upgraded fork and seatpost.

It may have developed a crack (after 2.5yrs and appx 6000miles), but I'm pretty happy w/ Cervelo.

-Smarty


----------



## Cinelli 82220

I got a Google ad at the top of this page.

'Pinarello Dogma Frame Pinarello Dogma Frame, Prince Frame Colnago EPS Frame. Cervelo S3 Frame" with cycling yong's url.

I don't care if someone wants to sell lookalikes, as long as they are clearly described as such. But selling a knockoff and describing it as a Pina or Colnago is definitely fraud.

My issue isn't with quality of manufacture. It is with honesty. cycling yong is/are liars.


----------



## mrbubbles

robdamanii said:


> 1: Good LBSs are a dying breed. You're quite correct. We're blessed to have several good ones nearby, so it's silly to not utilize them.


Under-utilization usually means they're not needed. There used to be a VCR/TV repair place nearby that closed down, was people suppose to utilize them and keep them in business? Ha ha ha ha ha.

You're like the guy who support a business for the sake of supporting a business.


----------



## DiegoMontoya

rhauft said:


> I've owned 2 sets of Reynolds Carbon DV46's and 3 sets of ENVE 38C, 45C & 65C's so I consider myself to be fairly well versed on these wheels.
> Not from a legal standpoint as I am not a lawyer.
> 
> I disagree on two counts:
> 
> 1) ENVE does not misrepresent itself as a Reynolds product.
> 
> 2) ENVE is a better product than Reynolds (IMHO)
> 
> These fake Chinese knock-off "Chinarellos" are misrepresenting them self as something they are not to increase their value. That is fraud.


The issue is whether Edge/Enve copied intellectual property from Reynolds and used it in making their wheels and marketing them as their own. So, the analogy is actually decent.

However, the main difference is that, as you pointed out, Edge does not represent itself as being Reynolds.


----------



## Alan K

Makes one wonder what else is out there on ebay and other online places that is fake. 

I am halfway seriously looking into a Ti frame (such as Lightspeed), anyone noticed fake versions of them?


----------



## rdbike9

*Real or Chinarello?*

Thoughts?


----------



## rhauft

Definitely *Fake* - (front der. clamp / round seatpost)


----------



## providince

rdbike9 said:


> Thoughts?


Looks fake to me for same reasons mentioned above.


----------



## providince

Not just chinarellos. Is this fake or real?


----------



## rdbike9

It is a MOST Tail C-Max 1K Seatpost are they not round?


----------



## rdbike9

I agree with you on the FD but could have taken the MOst Tail from a Prince?


----------



## providince

rdbike9 said:


> It is a MOST Tail C-Max 1K Seatpost are they not round?


A real dogma 60.1 has an aero tear dropped shaped seat post.


----------



## rhauft

rdbike9 said:


> It is a MOST Tail C-Max 1K Seatpost are they not round?


All authentic Dogma 60.1 have oval seat tubes with oval seatposts. NOT round.


----------



## rdbike9

I see thanks.


----------



## RC28

Fake. In addition, the Pinarello logo is different. In real Pinarellos the letters are taller and closer together.

And yes, the derailleur clamp and round seat tube are giveaways too.


----------



## rhauft

rdbike9 said:


> Thoughts?


Here's an authentic Dogma (mine) in same colors.


----------



## robdamanii

rdbike9 said:


> Yea I noticed that about the decals wasn't sure if I was just trying to imagine differences between them. What do you think a build like this cost compared to a real Dogma?


Your soul.

Counterfeiting is wrong, so don't do it.


----------



## rdbike9

Yea I noticed that about the decals wasn't sure if I was just trying to imagine differences between them. What do you think a build like this cost compared to a real Dogma?


----------



## rdbike9

Nice looking bike. what do you think the price to build the other one compared to yours?


----------



## rhauft

rdbike9 said:


> What do you think a build like this cost compared to a real Dogma?


What is a counterfeit dollar bill worth? Same answer = .00


----------



## robdamanii

rdbike9 said:


> I am not looking to start a debate about the "worth of the bike" because obviously you spent some solid non counterfeit dollars on yours. I was asking what do you think this build cost him to do?


Go look it up if you're so curious about counterfeiting.


----------



## rdbike9

I am not looking to start a debate about the "worth of the bike" because obviously you spent some solid non counterfeit dollars on yours. I was asking what do you think this build cost him to do?


----------



## wevergo

The Chinese 'crap' is recently tested by a famous Dutch monthly cycling journal: fiets.nl
They have tested hundreds of frames, they are very reliable.

Results:
very good results, even better then some Colnago's in terms of weight and torsional stiffness.
Also tested in the mountains for two weeks, fast descents: good results.
Finish of the frame: excellent.
Price: amazing.

At the moment they are waiting for a second frame from another provider.
Test results coming soon.

So Chinese crap is no crap, it's GOOD.


----------



## rhauft

wevergo said:


> So Chinees crap is no crap, its GOOD.


A polished turd is still a turd... "Good crap" is still crap.


----------



## wevergo

rhauft said:


> A polished turd is still a turd... "Good crap" is still crap.


Is this your argument? 
Very convincing.


----------



## rhauft

wevergo said:


> Is this your argument?


Not arguing, just stating my educated opinion.


----------



## mrbubbles

rhauft said:


> Not arguing, just stating my educated opinion.


How is your opinion "educated" when you haven't tried these compared to your real Pinarello? 

Not that I'm saying these are crap or not, just that I reserve my opinion until I have tried it for myself.


----------



## rdbike9

None of Pinarello's frames are actually "made" in Italy but all are made by a Chinese manufacturer (who, by the way, subcontracts out the lower to medium range models to sattlelite factories). So indeed, all the Pinarello's on the road, including your Dogma, are actually made by these factories. The decals may have been applied by the passionate workers in Italy. This allows them to brand it "made and Italy and charge $10,000+ for the bike. I know you will be ready to argue about the quality control and testing so that maybe a better reason for them to charge 10k.inarello Himself in an interview on Italian Cycling PRO magazine said all their frames are made in China. Nothing so out of ordinary when we talk about carbon frames and low production costs. So all in all they are all just polished turds some just pay more for a braze on FD and tear drop seat tube.


----------



## rhauft

mrbubbles said:


> How is your opinion "educated" when you haven't tried these compared to your real Pinarello?
> 
> Not that I'm saying these are crap or not, just that I reserve my opinion until I have tried it for myself.


For starters: 
My 30+ years of road racing and race engineering experience.
My numerous (too many to count) trips through the Treviso factory HQ.
My relationship with the Pinarello family.

I don't have the time or patience for anther tiresome internet pissing match.

My bikes are real
My watches are real
My wife's breasts are real (and they are spectacular).

Ride what ever the f- you want, but if its a fake, take it over to the chinese fake bike thread.

Caveat Emptor


----------



## rdbike9

I have never complained about fake breast and will not start now


----------



## mrbubbles

rhauft said:


> For starters:
> My 30+ years of road racing and race engineering experience.
> My numerous (too many to count) trips through the Treviso factory HQ.
> My relationship with the Pinarello family.
> 
> I don't have the time or patience for anther tiresome internet pissing match.
> 
> My bikes are real
> My watches are real
> My wife's breasts are real (and they are spectacular).
> 
> Caveat Emptor


Very very convincing. Seeing that you visited the Treviso HQ, does Pinarello makes everything in Italy?


----------



## wevergo

Again the same same boring discussion.
It is about the FRAME, not the decals!!!!!!!!
And the frame is REAL and the testresults are REAL.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

wevergo said:


> The Chinese 'crap' is recently tested by a famous Dutch monthly cycling journal: fiets.nl


I tried looking at that site, but it's Dutch only. Not really very helpful to thie conversation here. What was the name of the bike tested?

Saying all Chinese bikes are good is as meaningless as saying all Chinese bikes are bad. Even Holland produced good and bad bikes.


----------



## Alan K

I am old enough to remember when they used to say the same thing about not buying Japanese junk... now some of those people happily drive a Lexus.

In the early phase of industrialization and mass production of trinkets there are always some hiccups but people do learn from their mistakes and improve... out of a billion plus people if anyone believes that there no one as clever as members of Pinarello clan with bicycles, that's just plain delusion.


----------



## rhauft

Alan K said:


> I am old enough to remember when they used to say the same thing about not buying Japanese junk... now some of those people happily drive a Lexus.
> 
> In the early phase of industrialization and mass production of trinkets there are always some hiccups but people do learn from their mistakes and improve... out of a billion plus people if anyone believes that there no one as clever as members of Pinarello clan with bicycles, that's just plain delusion.


I received my first Sony transistor radio (AM only) back in 1966. What this has to do with knock-off Pinarellos, I have no Idea... 

90% of my possessions are probably made in China or Taiwan, including my Dogma. None the less, its an authentic Pinarello - not a cheap & cheezy knock-off. 
Big difference.

If you honestly believe that there is no difference between a knock-off Pinarello Dogma and the real deal, then feel free to ride what ever the heck you desire. Just don't try to persuade the rest of us here that its anything more than a fraud, as is the operator. You're riding buddies may be fooled but you're not fooling anybody here.


----------



## rdbike9

I say what ever it takes to get people out riding more often and less worrying about upgrading or getting the coolest/lightest bike then I am all for it. Ride more blog less.


----------



## Alan K

rhauft said:


> I received my first Sony transistor radio (AM only) back in 1966. What this has to do with knock-off Pinarellos, I have no Idea...
> 
> 90% of my possessions are probably made in China or Taiwan, including my Dogma. None the less, its an authentic Pinarello - not a cheap & cheezy knock-off.
> Big difference.
> 
> If you honestly believe that there is no difference between a knock-off Pinarello Dogma and the real deal, then feel free to ride what ever the heck you desire. Just don't try to persuade the rest of us here that its anything more than a fraud, as is the operator. You're riding buddies may be fooled but you're not fooling anybody here.


Let me clarify, neither am I trying to persuade you nor anyone else to ride a knock-off (usually referred to a cheap imitation). But is imitation just superficial and has no functional integrity? My point was simply the quality of the product.

I do understand the necessity of tight regulations to protect the initial costs of development in a product and how bypassing them is illegal, as far as laws are concerned. And it is as it needs to be. However, a crucial question from the perspective of a rider who may not be so concerned about the logo's authenticity the product bears, is about the actual quality of the product itself. Is it sound, does it allow one to do what it is supposed to do equally well or nearly so? On the other hand, at substantial reduction in price, some people may be willing to accept a slight difference... but then if such a difference appeared in another famous Italian frame, it would be a refinement, whereas as in products of a new player, it would be a dreadful flaw. 

And you are absolutely correct about your transistor radio being a completely irrelevant point in this discussion.


----------



## rhauft

Alan K said:


> And you are absolutely correct about your transistor radio being a completely irrelevant in this discussion.


As is your Lexus


----------



## Alan K

rhauft said:


> As is your Lexus


Nope!

Remember when Japanese products were considered junk and no one buy early Toyotas... too tinny, too small, a piece of junk whose dash boards split up in Texas heat (because Japanese engineers obviously underestimated the affect of heat in TX). And look at them now... may be they are nor driving a Lexus because they like a Honda or Infinity better. 

Give them a little time and they will be making better frames than Pinarello or Colonago and for a heck of a lot of less than the "original"s.


----------



## rhauft

Alan K said:


> Nope!
> Remember when Japanese products were considered junk and no one buy early Toyotas... too tinny, too small, a piece of junk whose dash boards split up in Texas heat (because Japanese engineers obviously underestimated the affect of heat in TX). And look at them now... may be they are nor driving a Lexus because they like a Honda or Infinity better.
> Give them a little time and they will be making better frames than Pinarello or Colonago and for a heck of a lot of less than the "original"s.


No one in there right mind disputes the power and prestige of Asian manufacturing skills and prowess. Back in the 1960's, people like my father called it "Jap Crap", until they proved they could out produce us with higher quality control - but again - This has nothing to do with comparing a chinese knock-off with another asian born product - an authentic Pinarello.

Would you consider a Chinese knock-off of a BMW 3-Series? They do exist, as well as fake iphones, ipads, Rolex, Breitling, Prada, Gucci, Armani etc. I'm sure for the right money, there are plenty of suckers out there that would and will. Your choice. My choice is the real deal or I can always ride my (made in China) Specialized SL3 S-Works... 

*Never would I consider a bike with someone's name on it other than the actual licensed manufacturer, regardless of where it was actually made. That is the point.*


----------



## Alan K

Personally, I couldn't care less about labels as such. Given that majority of our high priced trinkets (iPhone and Apple computers being only a couple of examples) are already produced with obviously high quality control and exacting standards, if they they produce their own brands (without infringing upon other people's legal rights) and called it by a different name, I will try them.

My only requirement is quality that I wish but without stealing other people's hard work. If Chinese crap can do that for 1/5th the price, I'm sure people will buy it.

Bulk of the names you have posted, I have heard of them but never had the desire to use them... to wastefully ostentatious for my liking so at least in my case, your argument doesn't apply.


----------



## rhauft

Alan K said:


> Personally, I couldn't care less about labels as such. Given that majority of our high priced trinkets (iPhone and Apple computers being only a couple of examples) are already produced with obviously high quality control and exacting standards, if they they produce their own brands (without infringing upon other people's legal rights) and called it by a different name, I will try them.
> 
> My only requirement is quality that I wish but without stealing other people's hard work. If Chinese crap can do that for 1/5th the price, I'm sure people will buy it.
> 
> Bulk of the names you have posted, I have heard of them but never had the desire to use them... to wastefully ostentatious for my liking so at least in my case, your argument doesn't apply.


...to you. *Personally*, I don't give a ratsass what YOU ride.


----------



## Alan K

rhauft said:


> ...to you. *Personally*, I don't give a ratsass what YOU ride.


Likewise, perhaps others couldn't care less how a fool and his money parts...


----------



## rhauft

Alan K said:


> Likewise, perhaps others couldn't care less how a fool and his money parts...


Finally! Something we agree on 100%!

All I ask is that you post your pics of your cheezy knock-offs in the appropriate cheezy knock-off only category - Not in the Pinarello forum


----------



## Alan K

rhauft said:


> Finally! Something we agree on 100%!
> 
> All I ask is that you post your pics of your cheezy knock-offs in the appropriate cheezy knock-off only category - Not in the Pinarello forum


You are addressing the wrong person, I have posted no photos of real or fake labels carrying bikes. 

Nonetheless, it is a forum open to public. And different people have their own ideas about what is a good deal/value, just as there are some cranky purists... irrespective of where one fits in that spectrum, there is hardly any need to get bent out of shape and start contemplating lower alimentary canal of rattus norvegicus; enjoy life in stead, go ride!


----------



## providince

These threads make me laugh so hard. I find it so humorous how angry people get on the actions of others. Supposedly exercise creates positive endorphins. Maybe people should ride more and up their endorphins.


----------



## Alan K

providince said:


> These threads make me laugh so hard. I find it so humorous how angry people get on the actions of others. Supposedly exercise creates positive endorphins. Maybe people should ride more and up their endorphins.


Finding humor in various activities is usually considered to be a very positive thing... I suppose cranky purists are providing a valuable service to others. 

Unfortunately for them, they seem to counteract the benefits of endorphins by overproducing corticosterols by being too picky and working themselves up needlessly. 

I suppose after spending many thousands of $$$, one must develop an almost unrealistic justification scheme in one's head and some of these comments from others, not so enlightened in appreciating the art and science of high price tags, must be a bit jarring to the bubble. 

I bike to work every day on whatever bike seems most suitable for the day/season from many I have (in our family, three of us ride the same size, some bikes are heavy with carriers, mudguards, thick tires, and others are light bare bones with skinny tires... and everything in between)... sadly there is nothing in my garage that can undo the effects 90ºF with 75%+ humidity, irrespective of the label. Lightspeed makes life a tad easier but even that I know is partly in my head because realistically looking at it, bulk of the weight I push up the hills does not reside in the bike or the label I ride.  

Keep enjoying, that's all that really matters.


----------



## AnthonyL88

The question is why do people buy knock-offs? To pretend the item they got are the real thing at a fraction of the cost. If those people say it's not about the name brand then why buy it in the 1st place. If someone is buying a Pinarello knockoff at $1000 and they are not trying to fool other people it's the real thing, then what's the point of buying it? Those people could take the $1000 and buy an authentic name brand frame or buy a complete bike for $1000 at their LBS. If you can't afford an authentic Pinarello frame, then don't buy a fake one. I wanted a Dogma 2 frame, so I'm currently saving up to buy one. By time my frame is available, I will already save up enough money. 

Whether the items I buy is $5, $20, $100 etc. It's always the real thing.

People who buy fake products are supporting criminals.

If you really want something just save up your money and buy the real thing!!


----------



## wevergo

Dengfu frame Chinese 'crap' :

Test results
torsional stiffness: 86 N/m2

Better then:

De Rosa KING: 72,8 N/m2
De Rosa Protos: 61,1 N/m2
Pinarello Paris FP carbon: 80,9 N/m2
Pinarello F4:13: 75,9 N/m2
Pinarello F13: 82,8 N/m2
Colnago C 50 Extreme: 72,2 N/m2
Colnago C 40: 71,2 N/m2
Colnago C 40 B stay: 79,6 N/m2
Giant TCR carbon: 70,2 N/m2
Look KG 486 SL: 73,5 N/m2
Storck C1 carbon: 83,4 N/m2
Time Edge First : 65,3 N/m2
Trek Madone: 2004 76,7 N/m2
Wilier Mortirolo: 84,1 N/m2
Wilier Le Roi : 86,0 N/m2
Specialized Roubaix Elite: 84,1 N/m2
Specialized Roubaix: 62,4 N/m2
Kuota Kharma: 77,9 N/m2
Orbea Onix: 73,0 N/m2
Ridley Damocles: 85,3 N/m2

So all these bikes are also 'crap' ???

Fiets.nl is waiting for another frame purchased from Hongfu.
It's probably a better/stiffer frame, results will be expected even better then this Dengfu frame. 
Results coming soon.

At he moment I have three chinese frames/bikes.
This summer three weeks climbed many cols in Spain at topspeed downhill: great frames, feeling very secure.


----------



## Alan K

AnthonyL88 said:


> The question is why do people buy knock-offs? To pretend the item they got are the real thing at a fraction of the cost. If those people say it's not about the name brand then why buy it in the 1st place. If someone is buying a Pinarello knockoff at $1000 and they are not trying to fool other people it's the real thing, then what's the point of buying it? Those people could take the $1000 and buy an authentic name brand frame or buy a complete bike for $1000 at their LBS. If you can't afford an authentic Pinarello frame, then don't buy a fake one. I wanted a Dogma 2 frame, so I'm currently saving up to buy one. By time my frame is available, I will already save up enough money.
> 
> Whether the items I buy is $5, $20, $100 etc. It's always the real thing.
> 
> People who buy fake products are supporting criminals.
> 
> If you really want something just save up your money and buy the real thing!!


I concur with the reasoning you state... there must be some element of pretension or as you say, trying to fool others. But then is it not foolish to be impressed by names alone? What is more important, the name or the function?

As for your rules, they are obviously perfectly fine for you. But they mean nothing to others. At least I wouldn't presume to assert what others should or should not do. All I would suggest, if someone inquired, is to ride something that is comfortable and safe for them... without being too taxing on their budget. And one can always find such a bike. Some times one may have to look around for a while among used ones that is in virtually new condition... it often happens because the original owner is always chasing the newest and shiniest trinkets. :thumbsup:


----------



## Alan K

wevergo said:


> Dengfu frame Chinese 'crap' :
> 
> Test results
> torsional stiffness: 86 N/m2
> 
> Better then:
> 
> Pinarello Paris FP carbon: 80,9 N/m2
> Colnago C 50 Extreme: 72,2 N/m2
> Colnago C 40: 71,2 N/m2
> Colnago C 40 B stay: 79,6 N/m2
> Giant TCR carbon: 70,2 N/m2
> Look KG 486 SL: 73,5 N/m2
> Storck C1 carbon: 83,4 N/m2
> Time Edge First : 65,3 N/m2
> Trek Madone: 2004 76,7 N/m2
> Wilier Mortirolo: 84,1 N/m2
> Wilier Le Roi : 86,0 N/m2
> Specialized Roubaix Elite: 84,1 N/m2
> Specialized Roubaix: 62,4 N/m2
> 
> 
> So all these bikes are also 'crap' ???
> 
> Fiets.nl is waiting for another frame purchased from Hongfu.
> It's probably a better/stiffer frame, results will be expected even better then this Dengfu frame.
> Results coming soon.
> 
> At he moment I have three chinese frames/bikes.
> This summer three weeks climbed many cols in Spain at topspeed downhill: great frames, feeling very secure.


Does that mean the price of crap just went up a little? 

How long before they start selling copies of "C" Super Record or "S" DA group sets for $399.95, no tax, free shipping! 

At least my favorite local bike shop guy has never been overtly in favor of any specific brand, thank God! I have been going to him for nearly 2 decades and his never ending _mantra_ has always been: _"whatever does the job for you is the best alternative."_ 

Local bike shops with the above attitude are not likely to suffer in their business too much.


----------



## PlatyPius

wevergo said:


> The Chinese 'crap' is recently tested by a famous Dutch monthly cycling journal: fiets.nl
> They have tested hundreds of frames, they are very reliable.
> 
> Results:
> very good results, even better then some Colnago's in terms of weight and torsional stiffness.
> Also tested in the mountains for two weeks, fast descents: good results.
> Finish of the frame: excellent.
> Price: amazing.
> 
> At the moment they are waiting for a second frame from another provider.
> Test results coming soon.
> 
> So Chinese crap is no crap, it's GOOD.



You realize that this thread is about COUNTERFEIT Chinese frames, not ALL Chinese frames, right?

This is about copies of Pinarellos, Cervelos, Colnagos, etc.

Counterfeit = crap, no matter how good of a copy it is. It's theft, and theft is crap.


----------



## rdbike9

I thought it was about comparing the performance of the copy to the real one. Not the ethics and justifications behind why people buy the fakes or if it is wrong. 
Do they preform up to par with the original, not if the glittery logo's match up. We have heard from people who own originals and know that they preform great and it seems that the fakes preform well also. Has anyone road both?


----------



## Alan K

_"Has anyone road (I assume, you mean rode) both?"_

Good question but other than professional people such as people from bike magazines may have or will do so. It is unlikely that anyone who is spent $8-10k on the real thing would wish to even try a $500 frame. If for nothing else then for the reason that it would make them feel pretty silly and annoyed at overspending... or not! 

But having said that, under no circumstances would I endorse thievery. If "Chines crap" is sold under their own names and trade marks, I have no issues with that.

Perhaps, I should hold off my buying an old Klein frame and try the "crap" in stead. 

By the way, are you directly or indirectly associated with the crap makers or their cousins and pretending to be an average biker here? I had to ask the obvious, one never knows... not that your negative answer necessarily changes anything, you could still be a plant (not the potted kind!  ).


----------



## PlatyPius

rdbike9 said:


> I thought it was about comparing the performance of the copy to the real one. Not the ethics and justifications behind why people buy the fakes or if it is wrong.
> Do they preform up to par with the original, not if the glittery logo's match up. We have heard from people who own originals and know that they preform great and it seems that the fakes preform well also. Has anyone road both?


Read the first post of this thread again. It's about how to tell the difference between a real bike and a fake bike, the hidden differences, and what kind of poseurs buy the fakes.


----------



## rdbike9

Thanks for correcting the rode/road thing. No I am no association with them at all although the poor grammer may make it harder to believe that statement (just poor public schooling in the States). I actually own a "piece of crap" and was curious. 
I bought an unbranded nude black piece of crap and built it up. It was great but then I was hit by a cab a few weeks after and the frame cracked on the rear stay. So I sent a picture to the Chinese Crap company I bought it from. They offered to replace the frame even though it was not a faulty frame but just a jerk off cab driving all over the place. 
Anyways they said they wanted to keep my business for the future and do good by their customers, so they just asked me to pay shipping cost $75.00 ( and let me keep the broken one, fork was still in good shape). The only problem was they had no unbranded frames left because they are still a middle man and buy from the factories. I would have to wait 9-12 weeks to get an unbranded frame shipped. Between waiting/shipping and rebuilding I would not have had a bike until the winter (I live in the North-East of the US) so I said just ship what ever you have in my size. It was a branded Dogma so this is what I was stuck with. I have since been riding it and it is nice. I race triathlons and Ironmans so my money goes into my race bike is Scott Plasma 2 TT. This is the only carbon bike I have to compare the "piece of crap" to. 
Luckily yesterday I had to go to LBS to get my wheels tensioned and when the owner looked over the "piece of crap" and asked me what I paid for it. I explained to him the story and the funny thing was he said he was thinking about getting one himself and asked me if he could bring in his cleats today and ride it to compare it to others (He rides a Look 596 right now). So I will see what he says.


----------



## rdbike9

Read the first post of this thread again. It's about how to tell the difference between a real bike and a fake bike, the hidden differences, and what kind of poseurs buy the fakes. 


Sorry I misunderstood the thread, hope I did not get anyone to fired up. I was not trying to change the thread. Safe riding to all.


----------



## rdbike9

In regards to what kind of poseurs buy the fakes. I guess I am a poseur who ended up getting stuck with a fake, not complaining. I personally could careless what other people think about what I am on that is why I went unbranded to start with. I worry more about my fitness level then the bike I am sitting on. 
Also a side note about the Chinese companies their communication is choppy but they have much better return/crash policy than any other company I have ever dealt with.


----------



## Alan K

_"So I will see what he says."_

That may be informative, post his subjective assessment; I am curious!

So, how much did you pay for your "piece of crap" frame?.

By the way, not that I care too much about ggrammer or spollings as long as I can understand the ideas conveyed but there are always two sides in any exchange, teacher and the student... own up to yours, I think that most teachers are trying to do a decent job often under difficult circumstances. And to make matters worse, the people who are essentially charged with shaping the future of our nation are least paid and way under-appreciated for their efforts. In fact, lately, they are demonized as lazy, over-compensated, idiots... really sad!

Apologies for digression (no, I am not a teacher)!


----------



## wevergo

I rode both, a Pinarellp FP3 ( for one year, and I sold it for a very good price) and mine, three FM 101 frames.
I think I can compare the bikes because I own a serie of roadbikes, see my user gallery:

http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=332353

The fake ones are the bikes I prefer, instead of my expensive brandname bikes.
The ride is better tan all other bikes I own.
Especially I like the geometry because it fits me perfect.
For the mountains it is a very solid, safe frame.
It's about the frame, not discussing the decals.


----------



## Trevor Ash

There are three arguments getting mixed together here:

Argument #1: Differences in quality.
Argument #2: Ethics of counterfeiting.
Argument #3: The qualities of people that knowingly buy counterfeit frames.

I can't argue for the differences in quality because I've never ridden any of these bikes.

I don't have issues with a manufacturer "borrowing" technology from other manufacturers. But as soon as they brand it using the same name, it crosses the line into obvious counterfeit. And I strongly believe that to be wrong. It has nothing to do with quality. If the frames are good quality, why not just market it without the branding? Or create a new brand?

As far as the last argument is concerned. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess I don't really care about people who knowingly choose to buy a Chinarello. But I do care about the people who bought one and didn't know it. I think that's bad for cycling, and I think that's all the evidence you need to know that it's a bad practice.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Alan K said:


> It is unlikely that anyone who is spent $8-10k on the real thing would wish to even try a $500 frame.


I have a Sky Dogma and a <$500 bike. I enjoy them both.


----------



## rdbike9

I will let you know what his subjective assessment is. As we know everything is subjective and relative nothing is absolute but he is has more experience to compare than I do. That was the reason for my original post to see if anyone else has experience on both or a higher end name brand frame. 

The "POC" cost me $575.00 Shipped. Total build was about $2K including 50MM carbon clinchers. 

In regards to teachers being under paid I could not agree more I think Matt Damon nailed it on the head with this interview...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFHJkvEwyhk


----------



## Alan K

I highly doubt that anyone with a few remaining firing neurons will even for a moment think that a new under $500 carbon frame/fork had been personally blessed by Mr or even Mrs Pinarello! 

So I highly doubt that anyone is getting ripped off. As far as the attempt to make it seem something else, it is unethical and troubling and it should not be condoned. People as well as companies have rights to their profits through their labor and hard work. If one doesn't like or agree with their profit margins, there are always other legitimate choices.


----------



## Alan K

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I have a Sky Dogma and a <$500 bike. I enjoy them both.


Nice to know and I stand corrected. 

So is the cheap one for grungy days?


----------



## Alan K

rdbike9 said:


> In regards to teachers being under paid I could not agree more I think Matt Damon nailed it on the head with this interview...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFHJkvEwyhk


Interesting how the clip got cut off at the "sh*tty cameraman" quip!


----------



## AnthonyL88

Here's an article on fake counterfeit designer clothes and you can watch it on ABC Nightline tonight. It's the same with making fake designer bike frames and goods.

Counterfeit Clothes at Luxury Malls? Private Eye Helps Police Bust Surprising Counterfeit Outlets - ABC News

A Quote from the article

Police say, however, that the damage inflicted by counterfeiting extends beyond the luxury brands whose goods are being duped.

"We notice that several gang members, organized crime and some terrorist groups are associated with distributing, manufacturing counterfeit goods. Now all this money is funding other criminal activities. That's why we're in this," said Sgt. Rick Ishitani, head of the Los Angeles Police Department Economic Crimes Unit. "It's not so much the Rolex, Gucci, the Chanel. They are technically our victims, but the real mission is to take down criminals." 

Stop buying counterfeit frames.


----------



## providince

AnthonyL88 said:


> Here's an article on fake counterfeit designer clothes and you can watch it on ABC Nightline tonight. It's the same with making fake designer bike frames and goods.
> 
> Counterfeit Clothes at Luxury Malls? Private Eye Helps Police Bust Surprising Counterfeit Outlets - ABC News
> 
> A Quote from the article
> 
> Police say, however, that the damage inflicted by counterfeiting extends beyond the luxury brands whose goods are being duped.
> 
> "We notice that several gang members, organized crime and some terrorist groups are associated with distributing, manufacturing counterfeit goods. Now all this money is funding other criminal activities. That's why we're in this," said Sgt. Rick Ishitani, head of the Los Angeles Police Department Economic Crimes Unit. "It's not so much the Rolex, Gucci, the Chanel. They are technically our victims, but the real mission is to take down criminals."
> 
> Stop buying counterfeit frames.


Here is an article with actual research showing counterfeitting is helping the original manufacturers. Fake Prada bags: Why counterfeits help high-end designers sell more of the real thing. - By Ray Fisman - Slate Magazine

As far as counterfeitting fueling criminal activity, maybe true. Probably is. Lots of business legit or otherwise fuel criminal activity. Fact of the matter however is that most criminal activity fuels itself. People are taking risks for the quick and easy bucks. That's why they do it.

These threads howveer are always he same thing. Some have issues with it. Some don't. It is illegal to sell counterfeit goods. Not sure how any of this conversation will change things.

Ultimately for me, it is humorous the response people make. It feels very middle school. Some people are upset with this, and feel they should be the police force. It's like the little kid who goes crying to the principal about something not being fair.

I also find it humorous that there is a real anger that some feel, as if it lowers the perceived value of their expensive bikes. As if they are gaining some inner value or self esteem from having a type of bike. Maybe just the way I was raised but I have never been impressed by what someone has or thought better of them because they have something. Ultimately I realize how lucky I am living here in the US and given all the special advantages I have. Basically I won the life lottery so the rest is gravy.

My rant is over. I'll still come on from time to time and poke the hornets nest because it is funny to me to see the same people get riled up again and again over the same things that they can't control and ultimately don't matter.

Carry on and have a great and safe riding weekend everyone, no matter what bike you ride.


----------



## RC28

providince said:


> I also find it humorous that there is a real anger that some feel, as if it lowers the perceived value of their expensive bikes. As if they are gaining some inner value or self esteem from having a type of bike. .


Indeed.

(although after typing this somehow I have a feeling that I know who are the next 3 people to post to this thread)


----------



## southparkcycles

Chinarellos Eat Your Heart Out


----------



## providince

southparkcycles said:


> Chinarellos Eat Your Heart Out


That's a lot of frames. Whats that a picture of?


----------



## rhauft

providince said:


> That's a lot of frames. Whats that a picture of?


Those are pallets of raw carbon frames waiting to go through the finishing process at the Pinarello HQ in Treviso Italy.


----------



## mrbubbles

rhauft said:


> Those are pallets of raw carbon frames waiting to go through the finishing process at the Pinarello HQ in Treviso Italy.


Bet ya anything Pinarello gets those made in Asia for 300 bucks a pop.


----------



## Alan K

_"Maybe just the way I was raised but *I have never been impressed by what someone has or thought better of them because they have something.* Ultimately I realize how lucky I am living here in the US and given all the special advantages I have. Basically I won the life lottery so the rest is gravy."_

Relatively few people in the _right_ group that matters (with money to spare) tend to feel that way. If they did, a sizable portion of our economy (such as it is these days) would not exist. A good chunk of the entire advertising industry, which is quit huge in terms $$$, is not about extolling virtues of quality and function. They thrive by selling a notion of success by association to their trinkets... and evidently it works quite well. Why else someone would pay over a thousand quids for a purse, is it functionally that much better?


----------



## Alan K

mrbubbles said:


> Bet ya anything Pinarello gets those made in Asia for 300 bucks a pop.


Or less... but customers pay for the holy water... I mean sense of belonging to a very exclusive club.


----------



## vladvm

I've seen video somewhere of Chinese workers laying the carbon, applying resin, glueing and sandpapering fm-101 frames. I've seen video somewhere of Italian worker applying decals. 

That's why unpainted are cheap, painted ones are not.


----------



## robdamanii

vladvm said:


> I've seen video somewhere of Chinese workers laying the carbon, applying resin, glueing and sandpapering fm-101 frames. I've seen video somewhere of Italian worker applying decals.
> 
> That's why unpainted are cheap, painted ones are not.


No, unpainted frames are cheap because they are not unpainted Pinarello frames, they are ripoff copies.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

vladvm said:


> I've seen video somewhere of Chinese workers laying the carbon, applying resin, glueing and sandpapering fm-101 frames. I've seen video somewhere of Italian worker applying decals.
> 
> That's why unpainted are cheap, painted ones are not.


"I've seen video somewhere"...there's an indisputable source! 

But thanks for letting me know that Chinese frames are apparently being made by Chinese workers. That is indeed a revelation.


----------



## DiegoMontoya

robdamanii said:


> No, unpainted frames are cheap because they are not unpainted Pinarello frames, they are ripoff copies.


Not every unpainted frame is a ripoff copy. Many factories have open molds. In fact, some factories in Taiwan have catalogs where you as a consumer can pick out different designs of the top tube, seat tube, downtube, ISP or not, etc. There is no "ripoff" about this.

Stealing the Pinarello mold and making your own frames is indeed a ripoff. That's intellectual property infringement.


----------



## mrbubbles

DiegoMontoya said:


> Stealing the Pinarello mold and making your own frames is indeed a ripoff. That's intellectual property infringement.


Actually, the frame mostly sold by greatkeenbike.com is not a ripoff, note that it doesn't have an aero seattube and the chainstays are different, hence the mold is not owned by Pinarello, it is also rumored that one (or some) of the designer/engineering was from carbotec (which made those real "Dogmas"). 

I suspect cycling industry operates similar to the fashion industry.

Johanna Blakley: Lessons from fashion's free culture | Video on TED.com

Where no one really patents a shape or design, but rather trademark various ideas (like FACT from Specialized, SAVE from Cannondale, "squoval" from Cervelo), cause if one company patents the double diamond frame design, no other company can build bicycle with a double diamond frame unless they license it, which is highly impractical, this is similar conundrum is discussed in the link above.


----------



## Alan K

In the global market, pursuing prosecution of infringements to intellectual property are routinely judged in terms of practical gains, as they are domestically within US to a degree. At the end of the day, it all boils down to the fundamental goal of all (or at least most) businesses, which is profit maximization.

All these high price trinket makers didn't exactly move their molds to China (or other similar places with low cost of labor) because they expected their moral code of ethics to be superior than their own. After all, it is nothing other than to cut the cost of production by not hiring better paid men (required by various local labor laws) of their own respective nations. In other words, the owners of intellectual property rights have no compunctions in cutting the middle-men (local labor force) out of the picture as they seek sky rocketing profits by hiring cheap labor. Predictably, the cheap labor force now sees the owners of these intellectual rights as the middle men and proceeds to serve their customers directly. They sell their products through Mr Hoity Toity, and get, may be $200 a pop; dump the flaming label to put their own (in Engrish with a few spolling mistooks and in time, even that will improve, it already is  ) and suddenly their take doubles... didn't we teach them those principles of business and sound economics?

From a moral standpoint, if we, the consumers have no or very little dilemma in buying products made by cheap labor (in conditions that defy what we consider to be fundamental human rights) as we put our own people out of jobs, is it not a clear message to our trinket makers that we are hardly likely to bat an eye when it comes loyalty to a handful of owners... as long as we have a steady supply of our trinkets. 
i have not stepped inside a Walmart in ~15 years (nor have I mail-ordered from them) but I hear they are still pretty busy! 

No one who moved their production oversees should have been foolish enough to not expect the realistic and inevitable outcome, assuming it to be a never ending source of high profits.


----------



## motard5

*"People who buy fake products are supporting criminals."*

And corporations and businesses that farm out their production to Chinese factories in order to make larger profits are not? Factories you purchase probably most of your consumer items. Factories by the way that are contributing to a building environmental disaster you could only dream of. Factories whom support unsafe labor laws, and where regular woman and men work in poor conditions for a quality of life that is not even close to yours. You ARE cruising a boutique bike internet forum right? Probably have some pretty good discretionary income to spend then huh?

If you ever attended history class remember our forefathers here in the good ol USA? I seem to recall something about how workers were being provided unsafe working conditions, low wages, and wanted a better life for themselves. Did they sit and take it, or branch out and create their own innovative companies using the resources and customers available to them? Isn't this what you so proudly say our country was built upon?

We all are blessed with the choice on how to spend an insane amount of money that these workers will never see. So instead of complaining about scammers, counterfeits, stickers etc., why not just save your selves the energy and stick to the scientific facts and real world tests. At least someone here finally posted up some real lab tests.


P.S. you could always start your own cheap carbon fiber frame company in the US and sell directly to customers at discounts.
P.P.S. oh wait...the cheap labor and materials part....dang it!


----------



## Alan K

There's always titanium... I must be behind the curve on the newest trinkets!

When all carbon frames will oxidize to powder or worse, CO2, you may still have a shiny Ti frame virtually quite intact.


----------



## Alan K

"People who buy fake products are supporting criminals."

It is difficult to ignore the above statement because it is true.

But decisions to make certain things criminal versus not the others in business is rarely a matter of morally correct (or even fair) thing to do. It is always about protecting one's interest.

For example, our seed giant Monsanto acquires heirloom seeds from all over the world for next to nothing. In some cases it was done under the pretext of preserving old seeds in a repository so many "natives" practically gave them away. Only later on they came to realize that a kg of seeds given to Monsanto entailed a legal exchange of rights and ownership such that, in order to use their own seeds from one year to the next, these poor farmers now need to pay Monsanto a certain amount of money every use. In other words, using their seeds as they have done for generations makes them criminals, thank to our four courts and concocted definitions to protect the business world.

Obviously the bike frame case is not quite as cut and dry but as I've mentioned earlier, China is very good at learning our wonderful principle of business to maximize profits by cutting the middle men. They are now simply taking the next logical step in business and getting fattest cats out of the loop.


----------



## PlatyPius

motard5 said:


> *"People who buy fake products are supporting criminals."*
> 
> And corporations and businesses that farm out their production to Chinese factories in order to make larger profits are not? Factories you purchase probably most of your consumer items. Factories by the way that are contributing to a building environmental disaster you could only dream of. Factories whom support unsafe labor laws, and where regular woman and men work in poor conditions for a quality of life that is not even close to yours. You ARE cruising a boutique bike internet forum right? Probably have some pretty good discretionary income to spend then huh?
> 
> If you ever attended history class remember our forefathers here in the good ol USA? I seem to recall something about how workers were being provided unsafe working conditions, low wages, and wanted a better life for themselves. Did they sit and take it, or branch out and create their own innovative companies using the resources and customers available to them? Isn't this what you so proudly say our country was built upon?
> 
> We all are blessed with the choice on how to spend an insane amount of money that these workers will never see. So instead of complaining about scammers, counterfeits, stickers etc., why not just save your selves the energy and stick to the scientific facts and real world tests. At least someone here finally posted up some real lab tests.
> 
> 
> P.S. you could always start your own cheap carbon fiber frame company in the US and sell directly to customers at discounts.
> P.P.S. oh wait...the cheap labor and materials part....dang it!


Hello Mr. Wild Tangent. Do we need to explain the difference between counterfeit (illegal) products and the history of business ethics?


----------



## taterhed

Alan K said:


> "People who buy fake products are supporting criminals."
> 
> It is difficult to ignore the above statement because it is true.
> 
> But decisions to make certain things criminal versus not the others in business is rarely a matter of morally correct (or even fair) thing to do. It is always about protecting one's interest.
> 
> For example, our seed giant Monsanto acquires heirloom seeds from all over the world for next to nothing. In some cases it was done under the pretext of preserving old seeds in a repository so many "natives" practically gave them away. Only later on they came to realize that a kg of seeds given to Monsanto entailed a legal exchange of rights and ownership such that, in order to use their own seeds from one year to the next, these poor farmers now need to pay Monsanto a certain amount of money every use. In other words, using their seeds as they have done for generations makes them criminals, thank to our four courts and concocted definitions to protect the business world.
> 
> Obviously the bike frame case is not quite as cut and dry but as I've mentioned earlier, China is very good at learning our wonderful principle of business to maximize profits by cutting the middle men. They are now simply taking the next logical step in business and getting fattest cats out of the loop.



Agreed....but buying from people who use child labor and are one of the number one human rights violators is perfectly fine; as long as it's stickered in the EU?

i'm just sayin


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Pina is made in Taiwan and Chinarello in China.


----------



## taterhed

*Tenn Ti*



Alan K said:


> There's always titanium... I must be behind the curve on the newest trinkets!
> 
> When all carbon frames will oxidize to powder or worse, CO2, you may still have a shiny Ti frame virtually quite intact.


:thumbsup: Tenn makes great liquor and great Ti !!!


----------



## taterhed

DiegoMontoya said:


> I'm not sure why the "extra inventory going out the back door" theory persists, other than helping Chinarello owners feel better about their purchase. Pinarellos are made by Carbotec in Taiwan. Chinarellos are made by Flybike (former Carbotec and Martec employees) in China. People buying these things from Hong Fu, Deng Fu, Kung Fu or whatever are just getting them from middlemen. The fake frames are made by Flybike.
> 
> Buying a Chinarello painted like a Dogma or a Prince is exceedingly lame. At some point, people have to think "how would I feel if my employees stole my intellectual property and set up a competing shop selling products with my brand on them"?


Which brings up the issue of the De Rosa R848.....:blush2:


----------



## taterhed

robdamanii said:


> Christ, I've been trying to point this out to the "it's all the same frame" fools for months.
> 
> Glad to see an actual dealer who's seen and handled these things weigh in. Thank you sir, for proving the point that you get what you pay for.
> 
> :thumbsup::thumbsup:


IMHO....

If the majors would warranty their frames for life (life insurance sic..) I'd feel a lot more comfortable paying them enormous sums to have the frames built by children and forced labor (even if it is economic force) in china.


----------



## taterhed

Yes, your correct.

Unitl they fall to china....(let's hope not).

But not all I think. Some of the majors are actually not from Taiwan anymore? (that's a question)


----------



## mrbubbles

Interesting huh?


----------



## Alan K

taterhed said:


> :thumbsup: Tenn makes great liquor and great Ti !!!


I went to a bike show in our town last weekend and saw some wonderfully made frames/bikes by small outfits, almost work of art! 

Spent fair bit of time speaking with a small outfit from TN (the guys used to work for Litespeed/Lynskey, including the welder). They had an interesting twist in the design fo their frame, where they make the top and the bottom tube square and twist them to create spiral going in opposite direction. The theory behind it, as stated by them, was increased rigidity (no numbers available). It did look cool!

I am seriously contemplating having them make one for me. 

Once their bill comes in, I'll need the second famous product of TN.


----------



## enzo269

The bottom one is the fake... Looks decent though... Even though your building it up with top grade componentry. Or are the Lightweights and Super record fake too?


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## rhauft

Interesting how? Top pic is authentic and the bottom pic is crap (and not very interesting).


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## charmette1261

he he ! are my bikes ! chinarello for winter and pinarello for summer


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## Alan K

charmette1261 said:


> he he ! are my bikes ! chinarello for winter and pinarello for summer


As far as the frame related ride characteristics go, any major differences?


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## DiegoMontoya

AnthonyL88 said:


> Here's an article on fake counterfeit designer clothes and you can watch it on ABC Nightline tonight. It's the same with making fake designer bike frames and goods.
> 
> Counterfeit Clothes at Luxury Malls? Private Eye Helps Police Bust Surprising Counterfeit Outlets - ABC News
> 
> A Quote from the article
> 
> Police say, however, that the damage inflicted by counterfeiting extends beyond the luxury brands whose goods are being duped.
> 
> "We notice that several gang members, organized crime and some terrorist groups are associated with distributing, manufacturing counterfeit goods. Now all this money is funding other criminal activities. That's why we're in this," said Sgt. Rick Ishitani, head of the Los Angeles Police Department Economic Crimes Unit. "It's not so much the Rolex, Gucci, the Chanel. They are technically our victims, but the real mission is to take down criminals."
> 
> Stop buying counterfeit frames.


Chinarellos are funding organized crime? 
Whatever.

I think copying Pinarello is lame, but at the same time, Pinarello outsourced their production to Asia to make an extra buck. I'm not feeling too sorry for them, and I'm a Pinarello owner. Personally, I couldn't care less if anyone is riding around in a fake Pinarello or not.


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## Alan K

Laws, primarily crafted by the rich to protect their own interests (in staying rich), and enforced by the system, virtually brain-washed into its validity, is also quite lame...

When these so-called "branded" original quality product makers have no compunctions about putting their own workers that were used as tools for their life time in the pursuit of owners' money making ventures and dumped at the end for cheaper labor to be trained to do the same, I find it ironic and amusing to note that the sacrificial lambs at the end of line (the customers) are so thoroughly trained when they are the ones who complain as to should shear them!

But as the previous poster mentioned, whatever!

I suppose that after dumping in 10 time more money, one has to justify their own actions somehow.


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## RC28

rhauft said:


> Interesting how? Top pic is authentic and the bottom pic is crap (and not very interesting).


Actually the top pic includes an original and a "replica" and the bottom pic shows only that same replica.

It actually shows off the similarities (and the differences) quite well. Having said that, the bikes (YES, both of them) look great.


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## Joe.90

Replying from an outsiders point of view

I own a genuine pinarello, AND a 'crap' one....I can honestly say that I can tell no difference. Maybe a couple small (to normal people, unnoticable) things in appearence, but it still looks amazing.

I have been laughing my head off at the obvious childishness of some people on here...let's be honest: your pissed off that you spend 3-4 thousand pounds of a frame that a lot of people around the world are getting for a fraction of the price? so your defending genuine pinarello and coming up with as much technical jargon bullcrap and elaborate storys as you can, to make yourselves feel better. And to justify spending your hard earned money.

Yeah some have broke, but then so have genuine frames, probably a similar amount. I dont care if the head tube is rounded not aero, I don't care what the thread BB....and for that muppet who keeps harping on about counterfeiting...I DONT CARE, ARREST ME! Im going to hell anyway.

.it's a proven good frame in my eyes, compared to ANY frame.


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## PlatyPius

Joe.90 said:


> Replying from an outsiders point of view
> 
> I own a genuine pinarello*, AND a 'crap' one....I can honestly say that I can tell no difference. Maybe a couple small (to normal people, unnoticable*) things in appearence*, but it still looks amazing.
> 
> I have been laughing my head off at the obvious childishness of some people on here...let's be honest: your* pissed off that you spend 3-4 thousand pounds of a frame that a lot of people around the world are getting for a fraction of the price? so your* defending genuine pinarello* and coming up with as much technical jargon bullcrap and elaborate storys* as you can, to make yourselves feel better. And to justify spending your hard earned money.
> 
> Yeah some have broke, but then so have genuine frames, probably a similar amount. I dont* care if the head tube is rounded not aero, I don't care what the thread BB....and for that muppet who keeps harping on about counterfeiting...I DONT* CARE, ARREST ME! Im* going to hell anyway.
> 
> .it's* a proven good frame in my eyes, compared to ANY frame.


* Pinarello, unnoticeable, appearance, you're, you're, Pinarello, stories, don't, DON'T, I'm, It's.

No, I'm not "pissed off because I spent 3-4 thousand quid on a genuine frame" and immoral cretins are buying the same for less. I don't own a Pinarello. I don't sell Pinarello. I don't buy things with pounds either, for that matter. Buying a known counterfeit is unethical, immoral, and illegal.

BTW, we don't have muppets here. Jim Henson died, and that ended the era of real Muppets. We probably have some sock puppets, though....


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## Joe.90

My post wasnt aimed at you.

Well I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over my immoral, un-ethical actions. Not everyone has the money to go round buying genuine pinarello's, drinking fair-trade coffee etc to keep their moral compass in tune.

Let's be honest, as a rider, who really cares? I care more about my bank balance than my immoral, unethical actions, when it comes to cycling..
How was my spelling?


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## PlatyPius

Joe.90 said:


> My post wasnt aimed at you.
> 
> Well I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over my immoral, un-ethical actions. Not everyone has the money to go round buying genuine pinarello's, drinking fair-trade coffee etc to keep their moral compass in tune.
> 
> Let's be honest, as a rider, who really cares? I care more about my bank balance than my immoral, unethical actions, when it comes to cycling..
> How was my spelling?


I want a Bugatti Veyron. I can't afford one. So I drive a Toyota Tacoma 4x4. I buy what I can afford WITHOUT resorting to buying copies or counterfeits. Does a fake Pinarello really ride any better than an entry-level Giant/Jamis/Raleigh/Trek/Specialized/Etc carbon bike? Probably not, no.


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## DiegoMontoya

PlatyPius said:


> I want a Bugatti Veyron. I can't afford one. So I drive a Toyota Tacoma 4x4. I buy what I can afford WITHOUT resorting to buying copies or counterfeits. Does a fake Pinarello really ride any better than an entry-level Giant/Jamis/Raleigh/Trek/Specialized/Etc carbon bike? Probably not, no.


That's great, and I agree that buying a counterfeit Pinarello is lame, but it's not the end of the world and people who do it aren't "immoral cretins." You've flaunted your perceived moral superiority a lot, and I hope that makes you happy. I salute you for it, but you're probably at the point where your efforts are having an inverse effect. Just saying.

I ended up selling my Prince and I don't have a whole lot of desire for a new one until prices drop. I am very happy with my Time.


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## Eyon

Just out of interest, has pinarello got any ip rights on the frame shape? I mean, the frame is a copy yes and some choose to have them painted in pinarello colours, but are the plain black ones actually illegal?


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## robdamanii

PlatyPius said:


> I want a Bugatti Veyron. I can't afford one. So I drive a Toyota Tacoma 4x4. I buy what I can afford WITHOUT resorting to buying copies or counterfeits. *Does a fake Pinarello really ride any better than an entry-level Giant/Jamis/Raleigh/Trek/Specialized/Etc carbon bike? Probably not, no.*


Nope, it certainly doesn't. But much like being seen with a Gucci bag, it certainly does make people think you're a lot more high brow than you really are.

The only reasons people buy counterfeit goods is to show off something they really can't afford and to compensate for some personal shortcoming.


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## Joe.90

PlatyPius said:


> I want a Bugatti Veyron. I can't afford one. So I drive a Toyota Tacoma 4x4. I buy what I can afford WITHOUT resorting to buying copies or counterfeits. Does a fake Pinarello really ride any better than an entry-level Giant/Jamis/Raleigh/Trek/Specialized/Etc carbon bike? Probably not, no.


Well there are Many, including myself who would disagre.. I have owned many cycles and my fake pinarello is not far off my genuine in terms of ride quality.


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## wevergo

Joe.90 said:


> Well there are Many, including myself who would disagre.. I have owned many cycles and my fake pinarello is not far off my genuine in terms of ride quality.


Do not be tempted to argue with people who have never ridden ore bought one themselves, they are talking nonsense to you and pretend to know all about it.

I also own many expensive brandname carbonbikes (see my user gallery), and I also prefer my three Chinabikes because the frame quality is awesome and the ride quality superb.
They want you to know that it is not,( ever bought one? they are headstrong moral fundamentalists who wish to impose their view to you, not aware of consuming many Chinese products themselves), but you know better.
Enjoy your Chinese bikes!


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## Alan K

For someone who calls others immoral cretins for buying a copy of a bike, there seems to be an interesting "moral" disconnect with the general health and well-being of our planet, given that the person drives a gas guzzler 4x4. Perhaps the superior sense of morality extends to only the financial aspects, as in who gets rich and stays rich.  

In any event, people who resort to calling names in argument only prove one thing... an acknowledgement that they have already lost the argument.


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## Joe.90

Alan K said:


> For someone who calls others immoral cretins for buying a copy of a bike, there seems to be an interesting "moral" disconnect with the general health and well-being of our planet, given that the person drives a gas guzzler 4x4. Perhaps the superior sense of morality extends to only the financial aspects, as in who gets rich and stays rich.
> 
> In any event, people who resort to calling names in argument only prove one thing... an acknowledgement that they have already lost the argument.



....x2


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## PlatyPius

Alan K said:


> For someone who calls others immoral cretins for buying a copy of a bike, there seems to be an interesting "moral" disconnect with the general health and well-being of our planet, given that the person drives a gas guzzler 4x4. Perhaps the superior sense of morality extends to only the financial aspects, as in who gets rich and stays rich.
> 
> In any event, people who resort to calling names in argument only prove one thing... an acknowledgement that they have already lost the argument.


You mean the "gas-guzzler" that gets about 25 mpg (I put on smaller, road tires) and travels *maybe* 20 miles per week?


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## NJBiker72

Joe.90 said:


> Well there are Many, including myself who would disagre.. I have owned many cycles and my fake pinarello is not far off my genuine in terms of ride quality.


Curious. Before biking I golfed and spent a lot of time on equipment. 

I found that some of the clones were as good as the brand names. 

Not talking counterfeit. No one ever said they were Calloway or TM just that they looked and played like them. And they did. Most counterfeit ones looked really like them but did not play like them. 

I have no more problem with someone buying a clone club or bike than someone buying Target brand acetaminophen but I do think it's wrong to buy a counterfeit. Not to mention in biking potentially dangerous.


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## providince

Alan K said:


> For someone who calls others immoral cretins for buying a copy of a bike, there seems to be an interesting "moral" disconnect with the general health and well-being of our planet, given that the person drives a gas guzzler 4x4. Perhaps the superior sense of morality extends to only the financial aspects, as in who gets rich and stays rich.
> 
> In any event, people who resort to calling names in argument only prove one thing... an acknowledgement that they have already lost the argument.


I wonder if there's the same moral outrage over people who are overweight/obese because of the massive financial strain they put on the health care system and our economy at large? I'm sure there are thousands of other examples of inequities we could discuss. Of course I'm sure these same people don't burden us this way, that's why they have the time to solve these other problems. 

Luckily the priority scale is aligned correctly with prioritizing replica bikes.


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## Cinelli 82220

providince said:


> I wonder if there's the same moral outrage over people who are overweight/obese because of the massive financial strain they put on the health care system and our economy at large? I'm sure there are thousands of other examples of inequities we could discuss. Of course I'm sure these same people don't burden us this way, that's why they have the time to solve these other problems.
> 
> Luckily the priority scale is aligned correctly with prioritizing replica bikes.


Nothing like a direct personal attack to establish your objectivity eh?


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## providince

1. Never said I was objective. 
2. Not a direct attack. At best that was an argument ad hominem.


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## Trevor Ash

For a small handful of individuals, this does seem to come down to beliefs. And we're all smart enough to know what happens once we start arguing beliefs.

I have my own, and I read this thread because the arguments are interesting. But I have no care to argue myself, seems like it's a loss for both extremes.


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## AnthonyL88

PlatyPius said:


> I want a Bugatti Veyron. I can't afford one. So I drive a Toyota Tacoma 4x4. I buy what I can afford WITHOUT resorting to buying copies or counterfeits. Does a fake Pinarello really ride any better than an entry-level Giant/Jamis/Raleigh/Trek/Specialized/Etc carbon bike? Probably not, no.


Very well said!!!

I agree with you 100%

If you can't afford to buy the real thing, then don't go buy a fake and pretend it's real!!!

Why not spend $1000 on a legit frame made by Giant, Trek or Specialized?

Because you want people to think you're actually riding a Pinarello.

If you want something then save up your money and buy the real thing!!


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## wevergo

AnthonyL88 said:


> Very well said!!!
> 
> I agree with you 100%
> 
> If you can't afford to buy the real thing, then don't go buy a fake and pretend it's real!!!
> 
> Why not spend $1000 on a legit frame made by Giant, Trek or Specialized?
> 
> Because you want people to think you're actually riding a Pinarello.
> 
> If you want something then save up your money and buy the real thing!!


I can afford several Pinarello's. (see my user gallery). But in my opinion the carbon Pina is not worth it ($$$$$$$), comparing to my excellent Chinese frames. For my "ego" ( for whatever it is???????) I own other brandname bikes (Trek Madones, Cubes, Wilier) and not Pinarello. Well, in fact I don't care about "ego". I buy roadbikes for the fun/sports and not for "ego" ore to show off my wealth.
I use my chinabikes especially in the holidays and in bad weather, then I do not have to be careful, just buy a new one when it is stolen ore crashed,
People who buy the real Pina's are the snobs......and depend on the Pinarello name for their ego. They think they are the upper class, pathetic, while their bike is hardly better.then the cheap ones...
Pinarello: it's all marketing.


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## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*



providince said:


> 1. Never said I was objective.
> 2. Not a direct attack. At best that was an argument ad hominem.


I disagree. That's an infraction. Next one's a posting vacation.
Seeing we are at the insult stage time to retire this thread.


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