# 12-29 11-spd cassettes are on the way... should Campy offer wide-range 11-X too?



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

See subject. Wide-range 11-X cassettes like Shimano's 11-28 have become increasingly popular... does Campy need something similar, but with the xtra added goodness of 11-spd? :idea:
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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*sensible combos...*

The only sticking point is the need to drop the 16T cog -something Campy hates to do, but did with the 11-25 10 speed cassette. I was suprised that an 11-27 was not offered from the start. Since they offer a 12-29, an 11-29 would just eliminate the 16T cog.

Mixing an 11-25 with a 12-27 works fairly well, but still not perfectly at the 15-17 shift. With this shift, it's sometimes hard to tell if the clunk that occasionaly occurs is due to a rough shift or just the bigger jump.

Mixing an 11-25 with a 12-29 to get an 11-29 would be worth a try.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, you don't _have_ to drop the 16T cog... something like an 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,24,27 is certainly possible. That's the popular Shimano 12-27, with an 11t added.

We can say that Campy doesn't like 3-tooth jumps in their 11-spd lineup, but the 12-29 eleven-speeder has 'em (and if it hadn't, the 16t would go bye-bye).

Sadly, this '16t vs 3-tooth jumps' tension just points out the fact that there's cause to come out with 12-spd, someday... 
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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*well...*

We've been through this before. Campy has never made a cassette with a 21-24-27 sequence and is not likely to. To make the 12-29, they just added a 12T to the 13-29 sequence that they have sold for many years.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

*hmm... what's the quote?*

"A thing is impossible only until someone does it."
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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*????*

The quote doesn't apply to this situation. Nothing hard about it. Campy just has a different gearing philosophy. Don't hold your breath waiting.


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## RussellS (Feb 1, 2010)

No comments about this 11-29 nonsense. I just hate Campagnolo's 11 speed 12-25 combination. Did they have their head up their arse when they thought of that stupid gearing. Why the three 2 tooth jumps? Why not something smart like 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-22-25? Does anyone at Campagnolo ride a bike? Apparently not. When you get to the end of the cassette you want just a couple jumps, not numerous jumps.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

*well, to be more specific...*

...the point was, some folks make doctrinaire statements about what a particular company will _never_ do (in any industry), and those statements end up being true. Until they're not true anymore. :wink5:

But, let's say for a moment that Campy never, on its own volition, offers the kind of cassette we're discussing. That's okay, 'cuz Shimano and SRAM will eventually go 11-spd, and one or both will likely offer such a cassette. And, it'll probably sell.

What does Campy do in that situation? Stubbornly go, "Well, we've never..."? Or, do they accept the market reality in that instance and offer what sells? :idea:

Interesting question, that. Not to say I know the answer... like everyone else, I'm speculating.
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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*wrong....*



RussellS said:


> No comments about this 11-29 nonsense. I just hate Campagnolo's 11 speed 12-25 combination. Did they have their head up their arse when they thought of that stupid gearing. Why the three 2 tooth jumps? Why not something smart like 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-22-25? Does anyone at Campagnolo ride a bike? Apparently not. When you get to the end of the cassette you want just a couple jumps, not numerous jumps.


It's not the number of teeth that matters, it's the percentage change. In the small cogs, a 1-tooth change starts at 8% and becomes smaller, until it's so small, that even the need for an 18T cog is questionable. The 18-19 shift is only 5.2% and the 19-20 is only 5%. 

Campy's offering is the smartest choice for most users. If your terrain is that flat, you shouldn't need a 25T cog or 11 speed for that matter.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

If a person needs a 29t (me), they aren't likely to have any need for an 11t (me).


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*always possible...*

Campy never offered a 27T cog either, but it made sense when they added one cog larger to most of the existing 10 speed offerings. They may indeed respond to SRAM or Shimano offerings at some point, but I don't expect 11 speed from either of them for several years.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

C-40 said:


> It's not the number of teeth that matters, it's the percentage change. In the small cogs, a 1-tooth change starts at 8% and becomes smaller, until it's so small, that even the need for an 18T cog is questionable. The 18-19 shift is only 5.2% and the 19-20 is only 5%.
> 
> Campy's offering is the smartest choice for most users. If your terrain is that flat, you should even need a 25T cog or 11 speed for that matter.


I agree... Campy's 11-25 offering is good. I hear plenty of ppl saying that they "gotta" have a 16t cog. I hear some saying that an 18t would be nice. I almost never hear anybody saying they "gotta" have a 20t cog, per Russ's post.

One thing about small percentage jumps does make me almost sympathetic to Russ's position, though... it's obviously valuable to have small jumps in your flatland cogs as opposed to your climbing cogs. Reason being, wind resistance isn't linear in the same way that a hill's grade is. 

On the flats, shift up to a 5% larger gear while maintaining your same cadence, and you need to put out 13-15% more power, or thereabouts. 

(btw, extrapolate this out to what a 17t --> 15t jump on the flats is like, power-req's wise, and you can see why so many want that 16t cog).

But on any reasonably steep hill, shift up to a 5% larger gear while maintaining cadence, and you only need to put out 5-6% more power. Which is why most ppl don't care as much about having 1-tooth jumps in their climbing gears ('cept maybe racers running near-straightblocks).

That said, you obviously run into reality when trying to include _every_ possibly-useful cog... even with 11-spd you have to make choices, and having a 20t seems to be well down the priority list. Most ppl would rather have other things, like smaller jumps in the climbing cogs, or a low enough bottom gear, or an 11t.

Even so, there are cassettes that do have it, such as some of Shimano's junior cassettes.
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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> If a person needs a 29t (me), they aren't likely to have any need for an 11t (me).


What ppl need, and what ppl buy... not always the same thing.

Oh, and I never said 11-29 (not 100% certain the Campy derailleurs would have the capacity)? I was talking more 11-28 (a la Shimano/SRAM) and 11-27.
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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I think SRAM's 11-26 is a good range, if you like 11 tooth cogs. It's missing that mythical 16t though....


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Wow. 150 views on this thread, and only 3 votes in the poll so far.

Guess its sorta like Afghanistan in here... ppl are afraid to vote or somethin'. 
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## Chris Keller (May 19, 2008)

What about triples?? I was contemplating getting my wife a Campy triple for her Guru but with the advent of 11-spd, I think a wide range 11-spd double would be better...only if I can get a low enough setup for her.

She needs the low stuff for climbs...


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Campy triple has a 30t inner ring... not much lower than a compact double, really. Like one jump in the climbing gears.

I dunno... with the 11-spd 12-29 cassette that's on the way, you could go compact and get her a 34/29 low gear. That's pretty darn low, unless you live in/near some farkin' big mountains.


But to cover all bases: Campyheads, does the Campy triple take chainrings smaller than 30t aftermarket, like say a 28t? :idea: 
And if so, does/did Campy ever make a 28t chainring for it, or would one have to go third-party for it? (TA seems to make almost anything)
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## Chris Keller (May 19, 2008)

Thanks SS! I'll take a look at what gearing she has now (ShimaNO) and make a comparison to a 12-29 compact...If it looks doable, I'll get her a Chorus 11spd setup.

Yes, we live near mountains...Colorado Springs, CO 
I Luv CO!!!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PS- Competitive Cyclist says the 12-29 Chorus cassette is available Feb 20.

Forgot how pricey even Chorus 'settes were, though... well over $200. :shocked:

Tanks gawd I'm not smitten with Record-lust or somethin'.
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## RussellS (Feb 1, 2010)

For the person who commented about cost of Chorus cassettes, they are about $100 from England and Europe. For the person who asked about the Campagnolo triple crank, it uses 74mm bcd inner rings. So you can put a 24 or 26 or 28 tooth on it instead of the 30. Any 74mm bcd cog from any maker, no need for expensive TA.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Are you positive about the Campy triple taking any chainring, Russ?

Reason I ask is, I've seen Campy in the past do odd little things to their cranks so they would only take Campy chainrings, or those very few lines of third-party chainrings that were made _specifically_ for Campy (i.e. had the oddness incorporated into them).

Quote from Peter White:

_But when Campy decided to offer a compact double crank recently, and chose the 110mm bolt circle, they offset one of the chainring bolts, making their crank incompatible with any of the 110mm chainrings on the market. Well, again, TA comes to the rescue._


If they really didn't pull that same crap with the triple, then great. And maybe Chris should then take a closer look at the triple. There is one 'ruh-roh' though: The specs on Campy's site say the following about the Campy triple front derailleur:

_for triple crankset - capacity 23 - chainring max 53 - *chainring min 30*_


Perhaps there's a small amount of wiggle room there? 

Oh, and thanks for the reminder on how much cheaper the UK online stores are for Campy. Ribble has Chorus cassettes for $125... yay. 
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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> Are you certain about the Campy triple taking any chainring, Russ?
> 
> I have seen Campy in the past do odd little things to their cranks so they would only take Campy chainrings, or those very few lines of third-party chainrings that were made _specifically_ for Campy (i.e. had the oddness incorporated into them).
> 
> ...


Jesus.

Here's my cost on a 12-27:

<table id="cart" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>
</td><td>FH CASS CPY CHORUS 12-27 11s
12-27t • 11sp </td><td> <select name="ship_from[]"> <option value="101">FL : 0</option><option value="103">NY : 0</option><option value="104">AL : 1</option><option selected="selected" value="105">IN : 0</option><option value="106">PA : 0</option><option value="107">MN : 1</option><option value="108">TX : 0</option><option value="109">CO : 1</option><option value="110">WA : 0</option><option value="112">CA : 1</option></select> </td> <td>$118.09</td></tr></tbody></table>
And people wonder why bike shops don't keep this crap in stock any longer....


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Campy does seem to hate US LBSes and US online stores. 

Are they still mad about World War II or something? Not our fault. Y'all teamed up with Hitler.


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## RussellS (Feb 1, 2010)

"Are you certain about the Campy triple taking *any* chainring, Russ?"

Yes I am 100% positive the inner ring on Campagnolo triples is 74mm bcd. I have a triple Centaur crank. 24-26-28-30 rings fit fine. Outer rings are 135mm bcd just like doubles.


"Quote from Peter White:
_But when Campy decided to offer a compact double crank recently, and chose the 110mm bolt circle, they offset one of the chainring bolts, making their crank incompatible with any of the 110mm chainrings on the market. Well, again, TA comes to the rescue._"

That is the compact crank. 4 bolts at 110mm bcd. 1 bolt on the back of the crank arm at 112mm bcd. Bizarre.


"Oh, and thanks for the reminder on how much cheaper the UK online stores are for Campy. Ribble has Chorus cassettes for $125. Yay."

I got Ribble at 78 Pounds. Use 1.36 conversion for Dollars and excluding VAT and its about $106. Merlin Cycles is $109.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

SystemShock said:


> See subject. Wide-range 11-X cassettes like Shimano's 11-28 have become increasingly popular... does Campy need something similar, but with the xtra added goodness of 11-spd? :idea:
> .


11/26 would work pretty good with only the final jump being 3 tooth. 

The 2 tooth jumps are really nice on long (1hour) consistant grade climbs. I think the 3 tooth jump from 23 to 26 might be OK.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

RussellS said:


> I got Ribble at 78 Pounds. Use 1.36 conversion for Dollars and excluding VAT and its about $106. Merlin Cycles is $109.


As of this posting, the Pound is at 1.57 US Dollars. 

_edit_– Sure you're not confusing that with the Euro exchange rate, which IS around $1.36 right now?
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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

SwiftSolo said:


> 11/26 would work pretty good with only the final jump being 3 tooth.
> 
> The 2 tooth jumps are really nice on long (1hour) consistant grade climbs. I think the 3 tooth jump from 23 to 26 might be OK.


I hope so. I may be getting a 13-29 10-spd Campy 'sette soon, for use with some Simplex retrofriction shifters. It ends with 23-26-29. 
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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> . Y'all teamed up with Hitler.



You Godwined your own thread about 11-speed Campy cassettes? Let them eat cake and off to PO with ya!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

rocco said:


> You Godwined your own thread about 11-speed Campy cassettes? Let them eat cake and off to PO with ya!


It was for a good cause. The Italian makers of componenty-goodness ain't playin' nice with Plat and the rest of the LBS owners.

And, is it really a Godwin if you're just reciting historical fact for humorous effect? :nonod:

Take me away, cobbers.
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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Only if your name is Mel Brooks.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm not sure half the Campy forum even knows what a Godwin is, Roc. PO seems to be its own pocket universe... thank gawd. 
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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

SystemShock said:


> I hope so. I may be getting a 13-29 10-spd Campy 'sette soon, for use with some Simplex retrofriction shifters. It ends with 23-26-29.
> .


I think that cassette squares with campy's well thought out designs. It would / will be interesting to do some steep climbs at a high cadence.


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## RussellS (Feb 1, 2010)

SystemShock said:


> As of this posting, the Pound is at 1.57 US Dollars.
> 
> _edit_– Sure you're not confusing that with the Euro exchange rate, which IS around $1.36 right now?
> .


The Pounds prices include VAT. Being from America I don't have to pay VAT. So take the price times about .85 to remove VAT then times 1.6 to convert to dollars. Results in 1.36 conversion factor for Pounds including VAT to US dollars paid by an American delivered to USA. For stores using Euros plus VAT I use a 1.2 conversion factor.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

RussellS said:


> The Pounds prices include VAT. Being from America I don't have to pay VAT. So take the price times about .85 to remove VAT then times 1.6 to convert to dollars. Results in 1.36 conversion factor for Pounds including VAT to US dollars paid by an American delivered to USA. For stores using Euros plus VAT I use a 1.2 conversion factor.


I change the default currency to $ and the default location to USA on any UK site I visit. Removes VAT and does the conversion for me.

VAT isn't 15% any longer, BTW. It's 17.5% now.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> I change the default currency to $ and the default location to USA on any UK site I visit. Removes VAT and does the conversion for me.
> 
> VAT isn't 15% any longer, BTW. It's 17.5% now.


Yup. That's what I did when I went to Ribble, and it gave me the $125 amount for the Chorus cassette.

Unfortunately, the 1st time I went there, I missed the line where it said "15% discount for online buyers" and a _second_ price reflecting that.

So that Chorus cassette is actually $106, as of this writing, from Ribble (which is more in line with what Russ was saying), i.e. _below_ your cost.

I'm sure as an LBS owner, that thrills you to no end. WTF, Campy? 
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## Metaluna (Aug 26, 2005)

PlatyPius said:


> If a person needs a 29t (me), they aren't likely to have any need for an 11t (me).



+1. For those of us who need the 29t, all this does is push the larger (usable) sprockets more inboard so you end up with more cross-chaining when you're in the big ring (especially on a compact where the 34T small ring gives too low a gear for flattish terrain).


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, what do ppl think would be a good 11-X wide-range cog progression? :idea:
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## volubilis (Jan 2, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> Just out of curiosity, what do ppl think would be a good 11-X wide-range cog progression? :idea:
> .


 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-27 or 28

v.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, looks like the poll's run its course. About 63% would like some kind of wider-range 11-x cassette.

If the just-now-being-released 12-29 sells well, perhaps Campy will follow up with something on the 11t side.
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## nenad (May 5, 2004)

PlatyPius said:


> If a person needs a 29t (me), they aren't likely to have any need for an 11t (me).


Dead on. Rare are occasions when I use 53/13 let alone any larger ratio. and I absolutely have no problem with 23-26-29 in the back.

FWIW, I also have an older bike with 7 speed FW which goes 14-15-16-18-20-24-28 and one would think I could tell a difference...and while at it, this 7 speed setup makes me realize just how much I don't even need a 10 speed let alone 11 at the back.

Last, that 14-28 freewheel is the only "cassette" I use extensively over the whole range; that is, I utilize all the cogs. On my "worn" out 10 speed (13-26) cassette cogs 13-14-15 are essentially new.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

C-40 said:


> The only sticking point is the need to drop the 16T cog -something Campy hates to do, but did with the 11-25 10 speed cassette. I was suprised that an 11-27 was not offered from the start. Since they offer a 12-29, an 11-29 would just eliminate the 16T cog.
> 
> Mixing an 11-25 with a 12-27 works fairly well, but still not perfectly at the 15-17 shift. With this shift, it's sometimes hard to tell if the clunk that occasionaly occurs is due to a rough shift or just the bigger jump.
> 
> Mixing an 11-25 with a 12-29 to get an 11-29 would be worth a try.



Has anyone tried this? I'm really ready for something more versatile than 11-25, but here in Colorado I can't give up the 11 tooth. Comes down to long, gradual decents that require the 11 but occasional 15% gravel climbs that require more than 25.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

SwiftSolo said:


> 11/26 would work pretty good with only the final jump being 3 tooth.
> 
> The 2 tooth jumps are really nice on long (1hour) consistant grade climbs. I think the 3 tooth jump from 23 to 26 might be OK.


I think it's fine, with the 3-tooth jump at the bottom (although most of our climbs aren't more than 20-30 minutes). I'm currently using a SRAM 11-26 (with 53-39 rings), and that cassette with the addition of a 16 cog, would probably be enough to get me to switch to 11. On long climbs, I'm often alternating between spinning the 26, and standing in the 21 or 23. If I have to stand in the 26, it's awful steep, or I'm baked! I guess if Campy won't do it, I'll have to wait for SRAMano 11 cassettes.


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## mj3200 (Apr 18, 2008)

nenad said:


> Dead on. Rare are occasions when I use 53/13 let alone any larger ratio. and I absolutely have no problem with 23-26-29 in the back.
> 
> FWIW, I also have an older bike with 7 speed FW which goes 14-15-16-18-20-24-28 and one would think I could tell a difference...and while at it, this 7 speed setup makes me realize just how much I don't even need a 10 speed let alone 11 at the back.
> 
> Last, that 14-28 freewheel is the only "cassette" I use extensively over the whole range; that is, I utilize all the cogs. On my "worn" out 10 speed (13-26) cassette cogs 13-14-15 are essentially new.


Couldn't agree more. It seems amazing how many people are convinced they need an 11t - especially coupled to a 53 up front.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

mj3200 said:


> Couldn't agree more. It seems amazing how many people are convinced they need an 11t - especially coupled to a 53 up front.


I'm sure most people don't need a 53/11, but there are many of us that train or race on some real hills, and use it quite a bit. It can make the difference between being able to close a gap downhill, or not, and makes sitting in at 40+ mph much more relaxing. I just got a used bike with a 12-23 cassette, and missed the 11 cog as much as I missed the 26. I've considered a compact crank, but I don't think a 50/11 would be quite high enough (52-36 would probably work well). For more casual solo riding, or in flatter terrain, you don't need it, for sure.


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## YB1 (May 14, 2009)

fallzboater said:


> I'm sure most people don't need a 53/11, but there are many of us that train or race on some real hills, and use it quite a bit. It can make the difference between being able to close a gap downhill, or not, and makes sitting in at 40+ mph much more relaxing. I just got a used bike with a 12-23 cassette, and missed the 11 cog as much as I missed the 26. I've considered a compact crank, but I don't think a 50/11 would be quite high enough (52-36 would probably work well). For more casual solo riding, or in flatter terrain, you don't need it, for sure.


Exactly, the 11 tooth is MANDATORY for downhill pace lining. I can and do run compact and with just one other guy it's just barely enough to get the job done. If I raced or rode in bigger groups, I would have to have the 53 tooth big ring. As much as I love Campy, I'm thinking of going SRAM so I can run an 11-32 XX cassette with a standard 53/39 crankset on my "do any ride" bike a Cannondale System Six.


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