# Did Lance screw Floyd?



## NOKKEOW (Aug 6, 2004)

Sorry if this has already been discussed...I have just started watching pro cycling and am suprised at the high level of intrigue and drama, and the constant story within a story that goes on in the peloton. Still trying to figure it out better. Anyway, when Landis went away at the end of that stage at the TDF, Lance told him to go for and try and take the stage win. But Ullrich cased him down, with Lance in tow. Basso was gapped, with Kloden on his wheel. Ullrich wanted Lance and and Landis to work with him so he could pick up time on Basso and possibly get on the podium. Could have happened, because Basso alone would not be able to close the gap on Ullrich, Lance and Landis and would have lost some time. Lance said no, telling Ullrich he had to do the work and he and Floyd would sit on...so Kloden and Basso caught up, Lance pulled a rabbit out of his hat and won the stage, and picked up a small amount of time against his rivals. Landis didn't get a stage win, and Ullrich lost his chance of makng the podium.

My question: why did't Lance say to Ullrich, "OK, we will work, if Floyd can win the stage. Jan can be second. I will take 3d." Landis would have got a TDF stage, Ullrich would have had a chance for the podium (but still not picked up time against Armstrong except for a few bonus points), and Lance would have increased his lead over Basso and Kloden, his two main rivals. Instead, he helped Basso (a friend, but also a rival and on another team), and Kloden at the expense of Landis (who busted his hump for him all day, and the entire tour) and Ullrich. It seemed like Lance wanted to screw Jan for some reason. If it because Jan chased down Floyd, why not get the agreement that Floyd would take the stage in return for working together? I saw Lance's explanation on the OLN interview and I can't say it made much sense...


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## TrailNut (May 11, 2004)

*just didn't work out*

Floyd didn't have the reserve of strength to win that stage and Lance figured that Floyd can't then he'd rather not let a rival win.
Floyd's a domestic, a great domestique.
I doubt if he thought much about that at all afterwards, being a good team player.


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## slowrider (Mar 12, 2004)

If I'm not mistaking, Floyd got 100 grand for helping Lance win the Tour. Lance gave the first place prize to his 8 team members. I think they got 50 grand a piece for that. Plus, Lance gave 50 grand of his own money to each member. The goal of the team is to help Lance win the Tour. If I'm Floyd in that situation, winning that stage would have been nice, but Lance is throwing me a lot of cash for helping him win, so I'm doing whatever he wants. It's his team. Oh yeah, the German fans were not very nice to Lance, So helping Jan was not going to happen. 


NOKKEOW said:


> Sorry if this has already been discussed...I have just started watching pro cycling and am suprised at the high level of intrigue and drama, and the constant story within a story that goes on in the peloton. Still trying to figure it out better. Anyway, when Landis went away at the end of that stage at the TDF, Lance told him to go for and try and take the stage win. But Ullrich cased him down, with Lance in tow. Basso was gapped, with Kloden on his wheel. Ullrich wanted Lance and and Landis to work with him so he could pick up time on Basso and possibly get on the podium. Could have happened, because Basso alone would not be able to close the gap on Ullrich, Lance and Landis and would have lost some time. Lance said no, telling Ullrich he had to do the work and he and Floyd would sit on...so Kloden and Basso caught up, Lance pulled a rabbit out of his hat and won the stage, and picked up a small amount of time against his rivals. Landis didn't get a stage win, and Ullrich lost his chance of makng the podium.
> 
> My question: why did't Lance say to Ullrich, "OK, we will work, if Floyd can win the stage. Jan can be second. I will take 3d." Landis would have got a TDF stage, Ullrich would have had a chance for the podium (but still not picked up time against Armstrong except for a few bonus points), and Lance would have increased his lead over Basso and Kloden, his two main rivals. Instead, he helped Basso (a friend, but also a rival and on another team), and Kloden at the expense of Landis (who busted his hump for him all day, and the entire tour) and Ullrich. It seemed like Lance wanted to screw Jan for some reason. If it because Jan chased down Floyd, why not get the agreement that Floyd would take the stage in return for working together? I saw Lance's explanation on the OLN interview and I can't say it made much sense...


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*well if Lance screwed Floyd...*

wouldn't Ms. Crowe have something to say about that? Sorry for the 14 year old humor, I'll grow up someday.

Aren't the decisions and politics of Pro racing interesting and fun to speculate about? LA wanting Floyd to get the stage win: nice and noble. Once JU caught boy Floyd, you have 3 guys trying to race down a mountain and stay in front of 2 others (who are definately motivated to catch back on!). Ullrich says he wants to work...

In the time given, on the bike at speed, small gap back to the persuers....probably impossible to communicate with something other than a two or three words. Given that Ullrich could be seen as "attacking" Klodi by this move, JU was probably interesting in not being caught on camera or such as being in communication with the "enemy" LA...

Also, how much would you be trusting someone to work with you and finish second...Floyd's legs probably could not have backed him up in a sprint against JU.

But, fun to wonder.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

*The real screwing...*

took place earlier in the stage, if memory serves me. Isn't this the stage where Ullrich, Landis, and Armstrong got away early before the final climb and Armstrong wouldn't ride with Ullrich? Didn't Lance say afterwards, he didn't ride because "they" didn't need to and it was Ullrich that needed time?

Obviously if they had ridden, Landis would have been in a much better position to take a stage win.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I think...*

Lance was actually trying to broker a deal. we'll help but you let Floyd take the stage.
since Kloden was sitting on Basso (and therefore wouldn't help) it would have been in Jan's interest to 'go'. he wanted LA and Floyd to pull and since Floyd wasn't 'climbing' the GC and LA was well in first it was in Jans interest to pull. Had Jan pulled at some point Lance would have launched Floyd and sat on Jan and said "I'll help but Floyd gets the stage" which would have helped both Jan (time on Basso) and Floyd (stage win). I don't think Jan wanted to make that deal so like the good padrone he is, it's "my rules or my way" and like the don. LA said "no victory for you". it's a tactic used often in the classics where you wind up with 2 on 1. The 2 are only going to help until they can successfully launch one. so Jan wound up with no time gained and no stage. I think it is another example of his poor race strategy and it may have cost him the podium.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*Db*

yep, that was the stage...although the all crested the climb together....Floyd boy and LA talked...Floyd attacked (ride like you stole something! to a former mennonite might not mean much...)

After Floyd took off JU caught him pulling LA along for the ride. At that point, LA and JU could have taken pulls with Floyd sitting in, but how much to you trust Floyd's legs to finish the stage off after all that work...against JU and LA?

(of course as I write this, co-workers are telling me I'm crazy...Floyd could have sat in on that and recovered enough for the pip sprint)


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*go Mapei / Domo Farm Frites*

launch 1, other sits on, if the catch is made guy sitting on launches. forces isolated rider to counter every move and die. George Hincapie has tasted this twice @Paris -Roubaix


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

*Ligget's take..*

and one that I agree with...
I watched the stage finish the other night. I believe Ullrich was covering the flyer taken by Landis and Armstrong went with him. When the three had a gap, Ullrich sat up and waited for Kloden to bridge at which time Armstrong tried to get him to work, dangling the carrot of a podium finish. Ullrich wouldn't work against his new captain and declined and Armstrong persisted. The gap separating Ullrich from Kloden was almost three minutes at the start of the day, far too much to make up in the final 5km and Ullrich wouldn't work against a teammate and friend. Then Kloden countered after they caught, a huge move, that guy can really go... Armstrong's timing on his jump was perfect, any later and he would have missed Kloden at the line. I really thought Kloden had it won, even watching it again, you wonder how he was caught. 
As for Landis, they guy had rode tempo most of the day and must have been shattered. He probably knew he had one shot with so little course left. After he was caught, I doubt he was thinking of a win.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Lance did not screw Floyd. Floyd took his shot, but it didn't work out. Ullrich covered the move, so game over. Watch later around the 2K point when Lance gave another wink and a nod to Floyd, who sat on the back for a few seconds, then charged off on an attack. That move was also covered, then Kloden went and looked like he was good as gone. Floyd had his chances and they didn't work out. Floyd ended up doing a huge turn to pull Kloden back, which Lance used to win the stage. That was one hell of a finish--one of the best I've ever seen at the Tour. I don't know how anyone can watch that and surmise that Lance screwed Floyd. Lance was quite generous with Floyd that day, in opportunities during the race and praise afterwards. The only person who got screwed was Kloden, who messed up an easy stage win.


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## aejc (Jun 9, 2004)

Lance wanted Floyd to take it, but Floyd could not escape Ullrich, and Kloden jumped.

Put it in perspective: the stage was the day after Lâ'Alpe dâ'Huez, the time trial where many unruly German fans spat on Lance. No German won a stage in le Tour, and of the top five in stage 17, two were German teammates. German television coverage featured an initially exuberant announcer who groaned in disbelief at the end, but there was no way Lance would let a German win a stage the day after his mistreatment by German fans.

Don't tick off the Boss.


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## NOKKEOW (Aug 6, 2004)

thanks for the analysis and comments. Like I said, I am still trying to figure out the european pro peleton, and definitely get the feeling that in many of these races things are not always what they seem. Lance pipping Kloden at the line was probably the best finish I have ever seen, and the only thing that could have been sweeter would have been Lance leading out Floyd for the win, partucularly since in 6 TDF winds no other Postal team mebers has an individual stage win besides Lance. I can see that Lance had a number of different and potentially conflicting interests in the closing kilometers of that stage: winning the stage, trying to help Landis win it, tryng to pick up time on Basso and Kloden, declining to give a German a "gift" etc. The fact he was able to pick up the stage win and put more time into his rivals was probably the best possible outcome from the perspective of his overall objective of winning the tour, I agree that Floyd was well compensated for his hard work, and will get even more next year with a big contract with Discovery or some other team. He may have missed his best chance to get a TDF stage will, but Lance gave him the green light to try (which under the circumstances was generous, since it was in Lance's personal best interests to have his last remaining lieutenant stay by his side) and the only thing that kept him from doing it was the fact that he didn't have the legs.


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## Italian Style (Jun 18, 2004)

*Lance really didn't want Landis to win the stage*

because if he did, he would have attacked somewhere inside 2K or so and given landis and an opportunity to counter. instead, he left it to floyd to miraculously lead him up to kloden to gift lance the stage win.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*no way, no how*



Italian Style said:


> because if he did, he would have attacked somewhere inside 2K or so and given landis and an opportunity to counter. instead, he left it to floyd to miraculously lead him up to kloden to gift lance the stage win.



Jan had to much left over and Floyd did not. Remember, there was this MINOR goal of winning a Tour. You ride for your leader.


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## Italian Style (Jun 18, 2004)

*exactly*

exactly, he was riding for his leader, which thus is not lance "wanting" floyd to win a stage.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*nope*



Italian Style said:


> exactly, he was riding for his leader, which thus is not lance "wanting" floyd to win a stage.



NO

Lance encouraged Floyd to take the stage. In the end, Floyd did not have it. Lance did not want Jan to get a higher time bonus. SO, he took it.

Its like Lance was riding to win. Floyd now has the distinction od saying yes, I was on the team where history was made with a 6 time TDF winner. Yeah, talk about a raw deal.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

Italian Style said:


> because if he did, he would have attacked somewhere inside 2K or so and given landis and an opportunity to counter. instead, he left it to floyd to miraculously lead him up to kloden to gift lance the stage win.


I guess it depends on how you perseve LA ( and USPS). If you like him then everything can make sense. If you don't like him, then you can fault in everything he does.

Why not ask yourself why JU and Kloden did not take the stage


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*let me guess, they showed him up yuh*



ngl said:


> I guess it depends on how you perseve LA ( and USPS). If you like him then everything can make sense. If you don't like him, then you can fault in everything he does.
> 
> Why not ask yourself why JU and Kloden did not take the stage


SO, they allowed Armstrong the stage and the last 6 Tours as well.

Yeah, thats going to teach him a lesson.


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## Italian Style (Jun 18, 2004)

*Because Armstrong and Landis were stronger*

i'm not sure that's the point, though.


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