# On Frozen Toes



## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

First things first: sorry for beating the dead horse. I know this comes up a lot for winter riders. Thanks for bearing with me.

I felt pretty well prepared for the -2 windchill today. I got through most of my 8 mile commute feeling toasty and even a little sweaty. Everything was gravy but for one problem - my toes. The poor things froze a little better than halfway through the ride.

When I bought my shoes I intentionally sized them to fit two pairs of boot weight wool socks. Since then I've done a lot of barefoot exploring and climbing, so my feet have gotten a bit bigger. They still fit my feet with both socks today, but it was more snug than ideal. Over the whole mess I had my Louis Garneau neoprene shoe covers. As you may have guesses, I'm riding clipless. Even with all that my feet were uncomfortably cold by mile 3 and starting to lose sensation by mile 6.

Any tricks specifically for keeping toes warm? If I add chemical warmers I'm pretty sure I'd need to sacrifice a pair of socks to make room. Plus the expense is less than ideal since I commute daily. Any insights to share, or are frozen feet just the name of the game when the temperatures get this low?


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

IMO from years of Skiing/Snow Shoeing/other Winter type stuff I love to do, feet stay warm due to blood flow. I have never bought into the 2 pair of socks is warmer then one. 

Think of you body like a heating system. The more hot blood you send to your feet the warmer they will stay. If your boots fit tightly it slows the blood flow. The insulation only works if there is a heating source keeping the space warm. Same thing goes for your hands.

What did you have on your legs? Maybe try an extra layer there to keep the hot blood coming from your core from cooling off. 

If that does not work you can always try pedaling harder. Good luck, I hope you find something that works.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

First, what was the actual temp? "Windchill" is a meaningless number for a cyclist - you make your own wind, even if it's calm.

Second, if you had frozen toes in less than 30 minutes even with neoprene shoe covers, you have a circulation issue, either one you always have, or one caused by too-tight shoes as a result of packing too much sock in there. I wear 2 pairs of socks in cold weather, but the inner one is a very thin liner sock (wool or a wicking synthetic) and the second a medium-weight. I also wear a wind barrier of some kind on my toes over the sock -- a small plastic bag works, but something made of a more breatheable material is better. With neoprene shoe covers that shouldn't be necessary.

I commute about 6 miles here in southern New England (Connecticut) almost year round. It was about 24 degrees this morning. My toes, dressed as described above, were fine.

Try the liner sock thing. I think your shoes are too tight. Good luck.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

QuattroCreep - Your thinking is very similar to mine. I had a feeling I would be in trouble when I couldn't easily and freely wiggle my toes. My legs were well insulated with a baselayer tight, Hind winter running pants as my insulation layer (a nice loose fit), and Duluth Trading Company firehose workpants over the whole thing as my wind-block. Not a sexy get up, but at least my legs were nice and warm.

JCavilia - Natural temp this morning was around 10. My foot circulation issue isn't helped at all by my hypotension. I'll give the liner sock a try. I have a nice array of summer weight wool that would do just the trick.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Put tape over the bottom vents in the shoes. It's not a magic bullet but it helps.

You could get insulated insoles also. You'd find those at a place that sells hiking/mountaineering stuff.

Lake makes winter cycling shoes (perhaps other companies do also). I have not used them but a lot of guys I ride with have them and they say they work great.

I just commute using platform pedals so can wear any boots I want. Depending on the style you ride on your commute there's probably no need to force yourself into using clipless pedals and shoes.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Lose the second pair of socks. 

Try sticking your shoes in the oven at 150 or whatever the lowest setting is for 10 minutes. It makes for a nice start.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> JCavilia - Natural temp this morning was around 10. My foot circulation issue isn't helped at all by my hypotension. I'll give the liner sock a try. I have a nice array of summer weight wool that would do just the trick.


10F is cold. That's about my limit. Still, with neoprene shoe covers I would have no issue.

Nothing sexy about anything you have to wear for cold-weather riding. It's all function.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Try winter shoes without vents. Good investment if you ride often in cold. Regular shoes with covers are never warm enough for me.

I have perpetually cold fingers and toes. But with winter shoes, 1 pair wool socks and toe warmers I can be pretty comfortable for extended riding in the teens. For a short commute I'd probably be fine without toe warmers.


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## Blue Star (Jun 9, 2012)

I have frost bite damage on my toes and fairly poor circulation to my extremities. I just picked up a pair of North Wave winter boots rated to -25C and so far as good. The coldest I've ridden with them is just below the freezing point, but they are very comfortable and a definite improvement over thick socks and overshoes.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

1 (one) pair of heavy wool socks, shoes that fit, and neoprene covers should be fine for a 40 minute ride. Add chemical hand/toe warmers if the ride is over an hour and you can probably stuff them between the covers and the shoes themselves.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

Dump the second pair of socks and throw on a set of toe warmers under your neoprene booties. Throw your shoes over a heat register or use a hair dryer on them before you go out.


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## 2:01 (May 10, 2010)

I've been hiking or just walking around in 10 degree weather and if I'm wearing regular shoes, my toes do get cold. Then take into consideration that you're cutting off circulation to your feet from the double-layer of socks. I would say either hassle with the chem heat warmers or just buy yourself some proper insulated winter shoes.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Spray antiperspirant on your feet and between your toes before you ride. 

And I second (or whatever number we're up to) wearing a thin pair of socks under the thicker pair.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Get an emergency blanket.

Trace insole and cut

Place cutout under sole.

You can buy the same thing for more money


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

kjdhawkhill said:


> Add chemical hand/toe warmers if the ride is over an hour and you can probably stuff them between the covers and the shoes themselves.


Warmers should go right on your sock. They won't get warm enough over your shoe to feel anything. They might not even work at all.
According to the instructions they should go inside the shoe in an "Oxygen restricted environment". 
They only heat to 97° so they really don't get your feet too warm. I put them on top of my toes 10-15min before a ride and get a good 2hrs of warm toes from them.









View attachment 301892


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

tednugent said:


> Get an emergency blanket.
> 
> Trace insole and cut
> 
> ...


Brilliant. Must do this.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Cold feet? Ski boot heaters & thermal insole boot & shoe warmers under $20


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

I can keep my core warm, but fingers and toes turn to ice in anything below 40F. I had a frozen ride last week, which bounced around 22F and 25F depending on how far out in the country we got. My feet were trashed after the ride and I could barely hobble from the garage to the bathroom to shower. This was with neoprene booties + toe covers + shoes w/ the cleat holes taped over + cellophane around my feet + winter sock + sock liner (still with enough wiggle room in my shoes to move my toes around and keep circulation). I just got a pair of Lake MX303 boots, and can report back with how I handle the cold with those.

Same problem with my hands. But I can solve 90% of that with chemical warmers between my glove liner and lobster gloves. Not enough room to comfortably do that in my shoes.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

tlg said:


> Warmers should go right on your sock. They won't get warm enough over your shoe to feel anything. They might not even work at all.
> According to the instructions they should go inside the shoe in an "Oxygen restricted environment".
> They only heat to 97° so they really don't get your feet too warm. I put them on top of my toes 10-15min before a ride and get a good 2hrs of warm toes from them.
> 
> ...


Do you use something like this: Amazon.com : HotHands Toe Warmers (40 pairs) : Camping Foot Warmers : Sports & Outdoors ? (I can't see your attachment)


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Yes that's exactly it. My attachment is the back side of the package showing the instructions. Get them... you'll be happy.
FYI, they're cheaper at Walmart. 7-pack for $6


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

tlg said:


> Yes that's exactly it. My attachment is the back side of the package showing the instructions. Get them... you'll be happy.
> FYI, they're cheaper at Walmart. 7-pack for $6


Picking up a pack on the way home tonight. Thanks, tlg.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

Excellent suggestions! Thank you all so much for sharing all these ideas. I'm glad to know my first instinct (ditch the extra socks) was in the right direction, but even more so to have all these other tactics to try.

Love Commander - I'm really curious to get your take on the Lake MX303s. My current shoes are really comfortable, but the upper is mostly mesh. They vent heat very well in the summer, but I'm suspicious that a solid upper may be better suited to the near-polar winters in Michigan. Be sure to keep us posted as you get some miles in with those Lakes.


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

I highly recommend *not* heating your shoes prior to putting them on (same with ski boots). Your feet will start sweating before the cold gets in, and then, when the cold gets in, they will be cold and wet, and it'll be a disaster. Just normal indoor temps. Nothing warmer. What's good about those chemical toe (and hand) warmers, is that they take a few minutes to warm up. So your feet won't start sweating before the cold gets through the shoe. Also, as someone else mentioned, battery operated footbed heaters.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Not pre-heating is sage advice. 

I've experimented a bit to keep the feet warm on long chilly rides. 

The best solution I've found is a single pair of medium weight wool socks and my Northwave "Artic" (sic) cold weather shoes. 

On particularly cold days, or for longer rides (2+ hours) I'll throw the toe warmers in as well.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I agree with your take on this. A warm hat will also help. Higher winter water proof riding shoes (Specialized) that seal out air combined with good riding tights that seal to the high shoe pretty much solve the remainder of the issue. A single pair of knee high wool socks under the tights helps a lot as well. On those really cold days use toe warmers. You can get them by the box pretty cheap at Costco.


QuattroCreep said:


> IMO from years of Skiing/Snow Shoeing/other Winter type stuff I love to do, feet stay warm due to blood flow. I have never bought into the 2 pair of socks is warmer then one.
> 
> Think of you body like a heating system. The more hot blood you send to your feet the warmer they will stay. If your boots fit tightly it slows the blood flow. The insulation only works if there is a heating source keeping the space warm. Same thing goes for your hands.
> 
> ...


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Hotronics heated insoles with a neoprene shoe cover work great for me on rides for several hours at temps in the teens. 

Something else to consider is when your core is cold, your body will constrict blood flow to extremities to raise the core temperature through improved circulation there so your internal organs are protected. You also lose quite a bit of body heat out of your head. Net, the key to warm toes and fingers if often paying close attention to keeping your core body and head warm.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

All good advice. As mentioned in the original post, the rest of me was nice and toasty warm. In fact I had a decent sweat going on, including my legs, while unable to feel my toes. I think the sock issue is the key for my experience. That is particularly true given that I have hypotension, so cold feet due to reduced circulation is a fairly consistent problem.

The only thing I want to remind folks of for further discussion is the climate. The day in question it was 10° F with 15m.p.h. wind. If all goes well with my planning and layering I'll end up riding in -10° F (I _really_ hope we don't get below -40° F like last winter). So, much like the advice from the Rivendell guys to "go for a ride in the winter without your gear. Sometimes it's good to get really cold on your bike", context is everything.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

tlg said:


> Warmers should go right on your sock. They won't get warm enough over your shoe to feel anything. They might not even work at all.
> According to the instructions they should go inside the shoe in an "Oxygen restricted environment".
> They only heat to 97° so they really don't get your feet too warm. I put them on top of *my toes 10-15min before a ride and get a good 2hrs of warm toes from them.
> *
> ...


Opening them up for 10 min before is important if you put them on top of your foot.

Now, I have had some success with putting them under the insole of my riding shoe right where the vent is. I keep the vent half covered with gorilla tape. You put the adhesive side up so it attaches to your insole. Now, this is not perfect and some shoes have vents in different places.


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## antihero77 (Jul 26, 2011)

what I do is go to a mens construction store like marks work warehouse here in Canada buy their thermal socks insanely hot. then I cut a hole in them for my cleat and u got amazing heat on your shoes. Then I put my thermal shoe covers over the socks and u could not believe how warm your feet are.
10 dollar trick saved my toes. I ride here in Canada all the time in -8


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Love Commander said:


> Do you use something like this: Amazon.com : HotHands Toe Warmers (40 pairs) : Camping Foot Warmers : Sports & Outdoors ? (I can't see your attachment)


that's what I have used.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

*Update!*

*Time for an update:*

After looking through all the sage advice on this thread I decided to try some different approaches and see what worked the best. So far two minor changes appear to have made the biggest difference.

*First off, I ditched the second pair of thick socks.* Honestly I'm embarrassed that I tried it in the first place. It was clearly flawed thinking. Instead I went with a summer-weight wool sock as a liner and a boot-weight wool sock for my primary insulation layer. That seems to be working. With those two socks, my normal biking shoes _(vent heavy uppers, no bottom vents, stock insoles[)_ and neoprene booties my toes have been pretty happy. They got a little cool at the end of my ride at 23° last night, but not too bad.

Much to my surprise, the other tactic that really worked was adding a balaclava. I already had a warm fleece hat, but noticed that my neck and cheeks were getting pretty cold. I stopped at the camping/climbing/everything outdoor shop around the corner and picked up a Northface balaclava and _WOW_! What a difference! My whole body felt warmer and more comfortable now that I could easily adjust how much heat was venting through my neck and face _(and lungs)_.

*The current arrangement of layers* _(for anyone who cares)_ is as follows: Upper body - Cotton or poly T-shirt _(I know, I know, "cotton kills")_, Icebreaker 260 long sleeve top, sweatshirt, eVent fabric jacket. Lower body - Onzie tights, Hind fleece running tights. With this arrangement I was comfortable riding at around 20° F. My legs were cool, my butt was a bit chilly, but my core was nice and warm and nothing got uncomfortably cold.

Today my windproof tights should arrive from REI. My hope is they'll give me another 10° of comfort, but that remains to be seen. I'll keep you posted if anything interesting develops.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

A balaclava is the most cost effective winter clothing item you can buy. They come in many different thicknesses. I have a silk one for cool weather (50's), thin lycra one for cooler/cold, thick lycra for cold and Gore-Tex for colder weather than I care to ride in anymore. 

The same is true with tights (3 different types for cool/cold/colder than I ride in anymore). Don't even ask how many pairs of gloves I have. 

My best jacket is a Burley that's not made anymore. Showers Pass makes one that looks similar. I find a draft flap and pit zips to be key to staying comfortable. For cooler weather, you can't beat the Boure thermal jacket (and they can do custom at a really reasonable rate) Cycling Jackets & Vests - Bouré Bicycle Clothing (I don't work for them). 

All this stuff accumulates over time. No one starts his or her first winter season with a closet full of winter clothes.

Have fun freezing yer @ss off.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

pmf said:


> Have fun freezing yer @ss off.


 That's the plan! The Boure Elite 2.1 jacket looks great. There's a piece of gear worth saving up for.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

Skinny Tall Matt's Guide to Toasty Toes:

I really suffer from cold toes on the bike. Having super long skinny legs probably doesn't help. I tried many things to keep them warm, but the thing that made the single biggest difference for me was the charcoal warmers. I buy them in bulk, and only use them when it's below 3-4°C. That's not too expensive for a southern UK winter, but if you live somewhere where it's below zero every day, then you might want to look at some Hotronic insoles.

This is my current regime:

* Thin liner socks
* Charcoal toe warmers placed right over the toes
* Mid-weight merino ski socks
* Winter shoes (I use Shimano RW-80s)

If it's below 1-2°C I'll wear 3/4 waterproof shorts over my tights to keep the chill off my thighs and knees.

If it's below freezing, I will also put some overshoes over my boots.

I open the warmers a couple of minutes before I start getting dressed, and pop them in my socks as soon as they start to activate. When commuting, I use the same pair for the hour to work, and 1-2 hours in the evening. I pop them in a ziplock bag with all the air squeezed out, which deactivates them during the day. They're normally good for 2-3 hours if you really keep the air out. (I normally double-bag them to be really sure).


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## ctrapeni (May 29, 2012)

I would second the dedicated winter shoes. They are built with insulation in mind, both uppers and lowers. I can now ride to 10F comfortably and I don't need to use neoprene booties. I have Lake winter shoes, but I have heard good things about 45North also.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> Love Commander - I'm really curious to get your take on the Lake MX303s.


Okay, so I've' had a dozen or so rides with the MX303s. Here's my opinion on them.

I will wear them on rides if it's below 45F. Above that, they're uncomfortably warm. The coldest I've ridden so far is the low to mid 20s, and that's probably the lowest for me - freeze/thaw cycle around here is drastic enough that you're pretty much guaranteed to have black ice when it's that cold. If it's in the 20s and I'm on a road ride, I will use some chemical toe warmers to supplement them and have been totally comfortable. On mountain rides at the same temp, I will eschew the warmers as wind is less of an issue and I'm shifting around enough that it isn't a problem. Toes will get cold, but not painfully.

They're very comfortable. Some reviews recommended getting the wide toe box, whether you have wide feet or not. I'm glad I got wide, the narrow/normal would have been too restrictive, and my feet aren't particularly wide. I can fit a thick pair of socks and some chemical warmers and still have enough wiggle room for my toes, which I like.

Build quality is very good. This is my first pair of shoes with the BOA enclosure system and I'm pretty happy. Will see what the long-term longevity is on that, but all moving parts look like they're replaceable.

This seems to be a more commuter-friendly type of shoe. The treads/lugs are pretty pronounced, like you'd see on a regular pair of winter boots. Walking around is totally fine, though I do still scrape the cleat on the ground occasionally, so beware of walking on wood floors. That said, the lugs are tall enough that it's harder to find the cleat compared to my MTB shoes (Sidi Dominator 5). This makes riding technical MTB trails a little tougher, such as when you're practicing a difficult feature and don't have much room to quickly clip in. Same problem with racing - I was hoping I could use these in some of the colder CX races or early spring MTB races. Not a big deal, though, as toe comfort is usually the last thing on my mind.

My only real complain is the cleat placement. You're pretty much limited to between the middle of the ball of your foot (if not a little behind the ball) and your arch. Every other shoe I've used centers the cleat track right on the ball of the foot, so that you can adjust the cleat position a little in front of the ball or a little behind. My personal preference is to have the cleat a little bit in front, which I can't get with these shoes. This hasn't stopped me from wearing them, though.

I'm pretty happy with them, and I'm glad I finally broke down and got a pair. They're not cheap, but they help keep me riding through the winter.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

Love Commander said:


> Here's my opinion on them...


Well that clinched it. My wallet will be screaming at me next year, but I'm going to have to break down and get a pair of those Lakes.

It's finally getting cold enough here in Michigan that all this preparation makes sense. Spending all of December above 10° had me feeling pretty darn silly blowing all that money on my Mount & Ground tires and polar windproof tights.


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## Whacked (Feb 14, 2011)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> Much to my surprise, the other tactic that really worked was adding a balaclava.


I don't often visit this forum but I was surprised that everyone offered band-aid solutions to your problem.

Cold Feet? Wear a hat.
Simple. Proven. You found that out with the balaclava.

You loose more body heat thru your head than any other part of your body. As a result from this heat loss, your feet get cold. Stands to reason as your feet are furthest from your body core.

3 years ago I gave in and started shaving my head. Immediately I noticed that my feet get cold easily. Ball caps are good when weather is mild/cool but need beanies when its cold.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Whacked said:


> You loose more body heat thru your head than any other part of your body.


Not true. Old wive's tale.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

The shift was from wearing a hat and scarf (wrapped high up the neck) to a hat and balaclava. I hope I didn't make you think there was some nut job riding around at 10° F without a hat!


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## rmsmith (Feb 15, 2007)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> Everything was gravy but for one problem - my toes. The poor things froze a little better than halfway through the ride.


Buy some downhill pedals and insulated hiking boots for the winter commute.


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## vmps (Feb 15, 2013)

A hat will not make your feet warm if you have the wrong footwear.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I tried out Ted's suggestion for the silver blanket under the insole of shoes. Works really well. Thought it would make my feets sweat, but never has.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

Good to know about the emergency blanket trick. I'll definitely be giving that one a try next season. Unfortunately the unreasonably cold winter here _(lots of days with air temp at -10°F and lower)_ made most of my preparations moot.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> Good to know about the emergency blanket trick. I'll definitely be giving that one a try next season. Unfortunately the unreasonably cold winter here _(lots of days with air temp at -10°F and lower)_ made most of my preparations moot.


As one who suffers from Reynaud's Syndrome, cold frozen feet and hands are a chronic problem for me.
I now own 6 different pairs of winter boots and god knows how many pairs of gloves. All the keep-your-body-warm advice doesn't cut it if you have Reynaud's. 
I like the Lake boots- although I got the road version, and wish I'd gotten the MTB version (what was I thinking??). One thing I noticed about them was the foil-backed insert that comes w/ the boot. Seemed like a good idea, so I got these for my other boots;
Amazon.com: 35 Degree Below Winter Insoles - 2 Pairs: Health & Personal Care

So for me, if it's below freezing, it's the Lake boots, thick wool socks and chemical toe warmers- and a 2ish hour riding window.
32- 50 degrees it's my Shimano MW-81's, neoprene booties (yes, over winter boots), thick socks and chemical toe warmers.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> Unfortunately the unreasonably cold winter here _(lots of days with air temp at -10°F and lower)_ made most of my preparations moot.


Preparations rendered moot because your little piggies froze and fell off inside your boots!?! I really hope not. Or are you saying it was so DANG cold you didn't venture out in it? 




RRRoubaix said:


> Amazon.com: 35 Degree Below Winter Insoles - 2 Pairs: Health & Personal Care


Wow, $20.00 for foil inserts, I just don't have that kind of cash laying around for inserts. My W. M. silver blanket was $2.50. Cut it all up and shared with riding mates.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

metoou2 said:


> . . . so DANG cold. . .


Yup.

I decided that I won't venture out on the bike when the weather service issues frostbite warnings. It takes me about 45 minutes to commute to work on my mountainbike, giving me ample time to _really_ hurt myself in weather that will freeze skin in 15 minutes. It's possible that in the future I might be able to gear up for that kind of weather, but it just isn't financially realistic this year.


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## cyclist2 (Jun 19, 2008)

I suffer from Reynaud's also and spoke with my Dr. about it. He prescribed a blood pressure medication called Amaldopine, which is a calcium blocker, it dilates the blood vessels and allows more blood to flow to the extremities. It's not a cure but it sure helped me. If you look it up on Web Md it's listed as a med for Reynauds.


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