# Super Record and Campy 11 speed!



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Well it looks like more and more the rumors are true for 2009.

Super Record, Record and Chorus should be *11 Speed* for 2009!  :cryin:

SR is record with cermaic Bearings throughout. They will be a new lever shape.
Redesign from Centaur and below.

Man, crazy year with the New DA 7900 coming as well.


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

I was hoping that 10-speed would be the end of things...at least for a while.


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

Campy has been at 10 speeds for 9 years, longer than both 8 and 9 speeds.


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

Yeah, and I was hoping that it was going to end at 10-speed. Shimano and SRAM will have to follow suit, and so too will many of us, I fear. All for just another sprocket.


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## fastpedaler (Apr 22, 2008)

Anyone got any guesses as to whether it'll be achieved by:-

1) Narrower sprockets & chain
2) More dished rear wheel
3) wider rear hub

I find it difficult to believe that 1 or 2 would be possible. 3 would mean another new frame standard. Still, mountain bikes are 135 mm aren't they? Maybe that would be it.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

fastpedaler said:


> Anyone got any guesses as to whether it'll be achieved by:-
> 
> 1) Narrower sprockets & chain
> 2) More dished rear wheel
> ...


The chain has been reduced to 5.5mm, and the 11 sprockets fit in the same space that 10 once did.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

yanksphan said:


> The chain has been reduced to 5.5mm, and the 11 sprockets fit in the same space that 10 once did.


How long before chains start breaking. Not a good idea IMO...just a marketing gimmick. Plus there will likely be no 3rd party chains for a while so you're stuck buying Campy's overpriced version(s).


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> How long before chains start breaking. Not a good idea IMO...just a marketing gimmick.


People said the same about 9 & 10. When 9 speed and 10 speed chains came out, they broke too - typically due to poor maintenance or incorrect installation - but you rarely hear of them breaking now.

I foresee a few rogue mechanics who don't follow the directions for the 11 speed stuff experiencing broken chains - just like when 9 & 10 came out.

It usually takes a couple of mistakes before some mechanics put their ego aside and read the directions. Supposedly the 11 speed stuff is so different though that mechanics will have no choice but to read the instructions first.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

yanksphan said:


> People said the same about 9 & 10. When 9 speed and 10 speed chains came out, they broke too - typically due to poor maintenance or incorrect installation - but you rarely hear of them breaking now.
> 
> I foresee a few rogue mechanics who don't follow the directions for the 11 speed stuff experiencing broken chains - just like when 9 & 10 came out.
> 
> It usually takes a couple of mistakes before some mechanics put their ego aside and read the directions. Supposedly the 11 speed stuff is so different though that mechanics will have no choice but to read the instructions first.


Yeah...I guess I'm turning into a retro-grouch. When you need specialized tools for everything and tolerances are so narrow that you need a torque wrench to tell you how tight to make it you lose some of the simplicity of working on a bike. It takes more and more skills and tools to do the same job. And for what? One extra gear that really won't make a significant difference? So you can run a straight block 11x21 now?


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Yeah...I guess I'm turning into a retro-grouch. When you need specialized tools for everything and tolerances are so narrow that you need a torque wrench to tell you how tight to make it you lose some of the simplicity of working on a bike. It takes more and more skills and tools to do the same job. And for what? One extra gear that really won't make a significant difference? So you can run a straight block 11x21 now?


I hear ya.

I know one of the biggest requests for Campagnolo was increased gear ranges. I had always heard that there were limitations to the rear derailleur that prevented them from doing so.

Maybe the new derailleur, chain and cogset configurations allows them to do so?

Hopefully this is the case, otherwise yes, I agree - it's change just for the sake of change.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

yanksphan said:


> Hopefully this is the case, otherwise yes, I agree - it's change just for the sake of change.


What's gonna get the Record guys off their butts and upgrade if not another gear? 

Gotta keep sales coming in y'know!

Me? I'm still on the fence about going 10s much less being one of the first adopters of 11s! 

I've said this before, but... I started at indexed 6s and was happy. Then 7s came out and that extra gear (either in the middle OR on the end) was a doGsend. Then 8s came out and you could have both the middle (16t) and the big (23t) in the same cassette. STI came out about here and like this upgrade, I waited a bit. Then 9s came out and you got closer spacing between gears (physical size AND tooth jumps) and it is/was great for racing, but I still shifted like I did with 7s for JRA. That 2-tooth gap is just about right for JRA. Now, there's 10s and soon to be 11s that I just don't get. Must be a olde pharte thing.

M


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

Why not just start using a triple at this point? Is the stigma associated with a triple that great? Why not just round it up to 12?


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

*these go to 11!*


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## Slow Eddie (Jun 28, 2004)

I hope this means every damn cassette they make will have a 16.

I love the 16 (not code).


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

Campy has always been about marketing and image. Their 10 speed components work great so why change it......It probably won't work any better than the current 10 speed, will cost more and introduce yet more new and confusing standards to the industry. 11 speed will just make Campy seem that much better in the eyes of the campyophiles and that much more lame in the eyes of those who like Shimano and Sram.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

With a 38/53 I think a 45 would make more sense than another cog in the back. In fact for the road race I did last year I changed to a 45/53. But then I live in Kansas.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

CurbDestroyer said:


> With a 38/53 I think a 45 would make more sense than another cog in the back. In fact for the road race I did last year I changed to a 45/53. But then I live in Kansas.


I'll keep my 39x53 thanks. Not everyone lives in a state with no climbing.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Even if chain breakage doesn't become an issue, cog and chain wear certainly will.

10 speed chains (from all the manufacturers) have shown markedly shorter life than 9 and significantly shorter life than the old 7/8 speeders.

Back in the "old days" I could easily get 3500+ miles out of the Sedisport chain on my 7 speed DuraAce 7400 with little or no noticeable cog wear. I sure haven't seen that on my 10 speed Campy setup.

And I'm sure 11 speed chains and cassettes will be even more expensive.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

Richard said:


> Even if chain breakage doesn't become an issue, cog and chain wear certainly will.
> 
> 10 speed chains (from all the manufacturers) have shown markedly shorter life than 9 and significantly shorter life than the old 7/8 speeders.
> 
> ...


Correct...what is a 10 speed campy cassette these days? Like $150+?


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Correct...what is a 10 speed campy cassette these days? Like $150+?


Heh...for Veloce maybe.

Record is up over $350


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

yanksphan said:


> Heh...for Veloce maybe.
> 
> Record is up over $350


That's how out of touch I am with the new stuff. I have Campy Chorus 10 on my road bike now. I freaked out when the LBS put a Record chain on a year or so back and it was $70! I know I didn't need Record, but I had no clue it would be that much.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*chain wear...*

Shimano chains wear a lot faster the Campy. I'm disappointed if I don't get 5-6,000 from a Campy chain. Even at that point there will be very little elongation, but roller and side wear become an issue.

Most people don't measure the wear properly and trash perfectly good chains.

I'd be surprised if the chain life was reduced by even 10 percent. The 11 speed cogs should be very close in width to current Shimano cogs, so I see no big issue their either.

Cog life is really governed by your chain management technique. I would expect to still get at least 4,000 miles from an 11 speed chain and no fewer than three chains worth of riding from a cassette. It will be important to have a quick link. If there is none and no other brand will fit, then it will be tough to do a 3-chain rotation, alternating chains every 2,000 miles.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

C-40 said:


> Shimano chains wear a lot faster the Campy. I'm disappointed if I don't get 5-6,000 from a Campy chain. Even at that point there will be very little elongation, but roller and side wear become an issue.


I also get about 5k from my 10s chains...I replace them at 5k for the reasons you state (and because cassettes are so expensive). The chain never measures extreme elongation.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

C-40 said:


> Shimano chains wear a lot faster the Campy. I'm disappointed if I don't get 5-6,000 from a Campy chain. Even at that point there will be very little elongation, but roller and side wear become an issue.
> 
> Most people don't measure the wear properly and trash perfectly good chains.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I get 3 chains, and 2 uses out of each chain on 1 cassette. I use a 1500mi rotation, but same idea.

Few other things:

Bora and Hyperon will both see ceramic bearings again.

Super Record will get ceramic bushings in the RD

There will be 2 tubeless wheelsets...my guess would be the Neutron Ultra and Shamal Ultra.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Just curious,*

but where are you getting this news? There are no links or cites in this thread thus far.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> but where are you getting this news? There are no links or cites in this thread thus far.


I used to work for Campagnolo.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

One question is what is the cross over limit. If it's the same as ten, Then I'm really just swapping a small gear for a large gear. If this is the case I don't really gain anything . . . other than a lighter wallet. . . . . Ahhhh what am I talking about, who hasn't seen those people in 53x26.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

yanksphan said:


> I used to work for Campagnolo.


Used to?


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

C-40 said:


> Shimano chains wear a lot faster the Campy. I'm disappointed if I don't get 5-6,000 from a Campy chain. Even at that point there will be very little elongation, but roller and side wear become an issue.
> 
> Most people don't measure the wear properly and trash perfectly good chains.
> 
> ...


"Shimano chains wear a lot faster the Campy." I thought the last Shimano you had was 8-speed. - TF


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"Is the stigma associated with a triple that great?"

YES, That's why we have compacts. (or as I call them..."nerd-lite")


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

CurbDestroyer said:


> Used to?


Correct.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I wonder if Campy will skip 13 cogs because it's "unlucky"
Straight from 12 to 14.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I wonder if Campy will skip 13 cogs because it's "unlucky"
> Straight from 12 to 14.


The more I read about this, the more I love my single speed.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> The more I read about this, the more I love my single speed.


Even the hipsters are moving up, supposedly old 3 speeds are going to be slowly replacing the fixed gear craze.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*chain*



Richard said:


> Even if chain breakage doesn't become an issue, cog and chain wear certainly will.
> 
> 10 speed chains (from all the manufacturers) have shown markedly shorter life than 9 and significantly shorter life than the old 7/8 speeders.
> 
> ...


My 1980 Bianchi Rekord still has the original chain, 6 speed freewheel, and chainrings. While not ridden continuously over all these 28 years, there is no doubt that stuff will likely survive forever. I change 10 speed chains about every 1500 miles, and sometimes cassettes not much more than that. But, for purely for perfomance, the 10 speed stuff is lighter and over all faster. If I had to keep one bike forever, and not put another dime in it, no doubt choose the old stuff. If I'm racing a hilly road race, I'll take the newest stuff.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

threesportsinone said:


> Even the hipsters are moving up, supposedly old 3 speeds are going to be slowly replacing the fixed gear craze.


lol...won't be long before we see lots of Stumey Archer 3 speed wheels for sale on Ebay.


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## threesportsinone (Mar 27, 2007)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> lol...won't be long before we see lots of Stumey Archer 3 speed wheels for sale on Ebay.


I've got three Sturmey Archer hubs in the basement, from '62 '66 and '70, one is even laced to a 650c wheel, the #1 choice for the new age of hipsters. 

Quick, how can I build a bike so that I use all three? I'll be crowned the king hipster.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

threesportsinone said:


> I've got three Sturmey Archer hubs in the basement, from '62 '66 and '70, one is even laced to a 650c wheel, the #1 choice for the new age of hipsters.
> 
> Quick, how can I build a bike so that I use all three? I'll be crowned the king hipster.


I did that for a winter commuter. I found an old AMF 3 speed w a Sturmey Archer on the side of the road. Heck if you want to dazzle me, get rid of the deraileur. Just say No to chain slap.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

CurbDestroyer said:


> Just say No to chain slap.


I had a spare Lizard Skin chain protector that I put on my new SS 29er...I then realized you really don't need a chain protector on a SS.


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## brblue (Jan 28, 2003)

*technical solution*

If you take one cassette, let's say sram power done or what it's called, and put in an external plate (towards the spokes) that's cone-like shaped, you'll have the large sprocket approx above the drive side hub flange, so you'll have a wider cassette without an extra wide cassette body.

Actually u don't even need a power-dome style cassette to do that. only a spider for the largest sprockets and some missing spacers between the spider and the inner edge of the cassette body.

that said, I don;t need any extra sprocket. I'm waiting for the continous ratio cassette  If there'll be such a thing...


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

brblue said:


> I'm waiting for the continous ratio cassette  If there'll be such a thing...


they make something like that already. 

https://www.fallbrooktech.com/NuVinci.asp

There is a super expensive cruiser that uses it. 

https://www.rei.com/product/760062?...-0625-DD11-98CA-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA

<img src=https://www.steve-z.com/images/2008/ride2_blog.jpg>


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

Tiso announced an 11-speed gruppo a while back, but I don't know what happened with that....


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## BlueMasi1 (Oct 9, 2002)

*Look at the positive*

Those who need it (or think they need it) will be dumping all thier slightly used 2008 stuff on Craigslist and Ebay. I really cleaned up this year on cranks and brakes. I can hardly wait.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*shimano 10 chain..*



TurboTurtle said:


> "Shimano chains wear a lot faster the Campy." I thought the last Shimano you had was 8-speed. - TF



I did a lengthy chain wear test over the better part of two seasons. One of my two bikes had a Shimano DA 10 chain on it. After only 2500 miles the Shimano chain had nearly four times the elongation of a Campy chain with the same mileage. My projection was that it would have taken about 4,000 miles to reach 1/16" per foot or 1/4 inch of elongation over the entire length.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*



CurbDestroyer said:


> One question is what is the cross over limit. If it's the same as ten, Then I'm really just swapping a small gear for a large gear. If this is the case I don't really gain anything . . . other than a lighter wallet. . . . . Ahhhh what am I talking about, who hasn't seen those people in 53x26.


If the cogs fit into the same space, then nothing changes. The two extreme positions are off limits.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*not so simple...*



brblue said:


> If you take one cassette, let's say sram power done or what it's called, and put in an external plate (towards the spokes) that's cone-like shaped, you'll have the large sprocket approx above the drive side hub flange, so you'll have a wider cassette without an extra wide cassette body.
> 
> Actually u don't even need a power-dome style cassette to do that. only a spider for the largest sprockets and some missing spacers between the spider and the inner edge of the cassette body.
> 
> that said, I don;t need any extra sprocket. I'm waiting for the continous ratio cassette  If there'll be such a thing...


Any idiot could rivet another cog to the left of the largest cog, but there is not 4mm of clearance between the RD cage and the spokes. The new 11 speed will allegedly fit into the same space as current 10 speed. Current Mavic hubs only lack 1mm to accomodate 11 cogs with Shimano spacing. The new 11 speed will have very similar cog width and spacing.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Super Record, Record and Chorus will all be 11 speed.

Centaur, Veloce and Mirage will continue as 10 speed.

None of the 11 speed stuff is backwards compatible - although from the info I got before, I would assume the wheels/hubs are now 9-10-11 speed compatible.

I haven't received any confirmation about the supposed clincher/tubular (does both) wheels. Only that 2 tubeless models will be released.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

yanksphan said:


> Super Record, Record and Chorus will all be 11 speed.
> 
> Centaur, Veloce and Mirage will continue as 10 speed.
> 
> ...


Nice. I hope tubeless and BB30 come to full fruition. I also hope I can get Record 10 for half off come the end of the year.


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## akatsuki (Aug 12, 2005)

yanksphan said:


> Super Record, Record and Chorus will all be 11 speed.
> 
> Centaur, Veloce and Mirage will continue as 10 speed.
> 
> ...


Will Centaur take up a lot of the old Record tooling? That would really pressure SRAM Rival which is probably the current value champ in groups.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

akatsuki said:


> ...SRAM Rival which is probably the current value champ in groups.


I would say so. '09 Rival is supposed to be lighter than '08 Dura-Ace and only $900 MSRP.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

yanksphan said:


> Super Record, Record and Chorus will all be 11 speed.
> 
> Centaur, Veloce and Mirage will continue as 10 speed.


While they're not bright enough to do it, that would leave them room to ditch Escape on Centaur. That'd be a bright spot in an otherwise goofy story.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)




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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

SO how long (how many gears in the cassette) before they can get rid of the front dérailleur and go with a single crank up front? 

If they can get the small cassette smaller (maybe 9 teeth) then they could cut down on the number of teeth needed on the crank, giving a larger variance in gear ratios, and cut out the small chain ring for most road racing!


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## hammer_cycle (Apr 7, 2004)

This is killing me. I wait 7 years to upgrade and now I find out that the Record components I purchased yesterday are 'obsolete' in 3-4 months. Oh well!


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## russotto (Oct 3, 2005)

Kestreljr said:


> If they can get the small cassette smaller (maybe 9 teeth) then they could cut down on the number of teeth needed on the crank, giving a larger variance in gear ratios, and cut out the small chain ring for most road racing!


Maybe they could change the chain pitch to get a smaller cog, and make things _really_ incompatible.


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## toyota (Sep 4, 2006)

where is any actual proof that this is coming out? there hasnt been one leaked photo or even any info of 11speed even being tested by anybody. I call BS until I see some real proof. 11speed is not just going to come out of nowhere.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

toyota said:


> where is any actual proof that this is coming out? there hasnt been one leaked photo or even any info of 11speed even being tested by anybody. I call BS until I see some real proof. 11speed is not just going to come out of nowhere.



Dirt Boy knows his stuff. He is given more info on the new DA line then any other source I have seen- and as months go by and pics are leaked, he turns out to be right.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Eleven speeds? I'm ready Mr. Campagnolo! Onward to the future!


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

toyota said:


> where is any actual proof that this is coming out? there hasnt been one leaked photo or even any info of 11speed even being tested by anybody. I call BS until I see some real proof. 11speed is not just going to come out of nowhere.


10 speed did. Nobody knew about it until Interbike.

It's coming...I've seen it. You will shortly.


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## toyota (Sep 4, 2006)

yanksphan said:


> 10 speed did. Nobody knew about it until Interbike.
> 
> It's coming...I've seen it. You will shortly.


 I thought 10speed info was leaked long before it was officially announced. either way I just find it odd that there are plenty of people that should know about it and they have not even heard of this happening. those same people have tons of info on 09 Shimano and Sram.


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## mellowman (Apr 17, 2004)

Is this why 11speed.com stop doing business last year? 

Will any teams be riding new campy 11s at Le Tour this year?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

mellowman said:


> Is this why 11speed.com stop doing business last year?
> 
> Will any teams be riding new campy 11s at Le Tour this year?


I would think so for the TDF. I know some teams will be on Production ready DA 10 Mech and electronic.


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

Kestreljr said:


> Dirt Boy knows his stuff. He is given more info on the new DA line then any other source I have seen- and as months go by and pics are leaked, he turns out to be right.


or you can surf over the weightweenies and fairwheel boards and get the info from the same source he does...


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## BlueMasi1 (Oct 9, 2002)

*Now that it's battery operated*

Expect to see solar panel disc wheels and recent spy photos show a generator. The black is the Record/Chorus and the aluminum is Centaur. You can see on the Centaur they have brought back the Delta name as well.


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## odeum (May 9, 2005)

*2 tooth can hang*

2 tooth jumps that is, even in the bunch as long as you are not in over your head...

9 speed chains are cheepr which means more funds for riding!




MShaw said:


> What's gonna get the Record guys off their butts and upgrade if not another gear?
> 
> Gotta keep sales coming in y'know!
> 
> ...


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

I don't think I will adopt to an 11 speed. Not because of mechanical concerns but frankly I don't need it. I run a 53/38 11/23 and live in hilly Ithaca. My rides encounter 7-14% grades and my gearing suits me fine.

BTW, I am running the same 10speed cassette that I bought back in 2001. It has 13-14,000 miles on it and shifts fine. I'm on my second chain, which I replaced in June of 2006. The first chain had almost 10,000 mile on it before it broke. I thought I would have needed to but a new cassette, which I had order. I tried the new chain and old cassette and "holy ****" if it didn't shift perfect. I the canceled my order.

Long live Campy!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## toyota (Sep 4, 2006)

raymonda said:


> I don't think I will adopt to an 11 speed. Not because of mechanical concerns but frankly I don't need it. I run a 53/38 11/23 and live in hilly Ithaca. My rides encounter 7-14% grades and my gearing suits me fine.
> 
> BTW, I am running the same 10speed cassette that I bought back in 2001. It has 13-14,000 miles on it and shifts fine. I'm on my second chain, which I replaced in June of 2006. The first chain had almost 10,000 mile on it before it broke. I thought I would have needed to but a new cassette, which I had order. I tried the new chain and old cassette and "holy ****" if it didn't shift perfect. I the canceled my order.
> 
> Long live Campy!!!!!!!!!!!!


14% grades in the 38/23? thats not advisable and Im a guy that uses large gears in the hills. you must look pretty silly doing 20-30 rpm.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Originally Posted by raymonda
I don't think I will adopt to an 11 speed. Not because of mechanical concerns but frankly I don't need it. I run a 53/38 11/23 and live in hilly Ithaca. My rides encounter 7-14% grades and my gearing suits me fine.

BTW, I am running the same 10speed cassette that I bought back in 2001. It has 13-14,000 miles on it and shifts fine. I'm on my second chain, which I replaced in June of 2006. The first chain had almost 10,000 mile on it before it broke. I thought I would have needed to but a new cassette, which I had order. I tried the new chain and old cassette and "holy ****" if it didn't shift perfect. I the canceled my order.

Long live Campy!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Response by Toyota
14% grades in the 38/23? thats not advisable and Im a guy that uses large gears in the hills. you must look pretty silly doing 20-30 rpm. 

Final reply by Raymonda
If that was my cadance I would fall over. The 14% are for short distances. Why would you assume and make such a comment?

I've been riding for over 20years and even when I lived in Denver and would ride in the mountains between Denver and Boulder I rode a 52/42 12-25. Some grades were pretty steep, which I would hit 65 mph coming down. Around here (Ithaca) I can only hit 51mph.

My knees are in great shape. I've never had any problems and between riding 3,000 mile per year and 2-4 games of ice-hockey a week i can keep up with the younger studs. Not bad for a near 50 old man.

Ray


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## DRLski (Apr 26, 2003)

bah, I can't keep up with all these upgrades!!!!


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

yanksphan said:


> Super Record will get ceramic bushings in the RD


Wait. What? Bushings as in the pieces that the parallelogram pivot on? Or bushings as in the pulley bearings?


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## toyota (Sep 4, 2006)

raymonda said:


> Originally Posted by raymonda
> I don't think I will adopt to an 11 speed. Not because of mechanical concerns but frankly I don't need it. I run a 53/38 11/23 and live in hilly Ithaca. My rides encounter 7-14% grades and my gearing suits me fine.
> 
> BTW, I am running the same 10speed cassette that I bought back in 2001. It has 13-14,000 miles on it and shifts fine. I'm on my second chain, which I replaced in June of 2006. The first chain had almost 10,000 mile on it before it broke. I thought I would have needed to but a new cassette, which I had order. I tried the new chain and old cassette and "holy ****" if it didn't shift perfect. I the canceled my order.
> ...


 well your cadence wouldnt be much higher than that because I assume you arent going much more than 5-6 mph on 14% grades. they must be VERY short. I lived in Boulder for a while and I made it up almost everything in the 39/23 or 21 just fine because most of the roads arent actually very steep. Magnolia Road is pretty damn steep though and even most racers need a 39/25 need to make it up that without weaving all over the road. MOST people would be much happier with a 25 or even a 27 on very steep grades.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Have you ever climbed Sugarloaf mnt road?


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## toyota (Sep 4, 2006)

raymonda said:


> Have you ever climbed Sugarloaf mnt road?


Yes but I dont really remember it. I think it was in the same area as Magnolia road if Im not mistaken.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

That is one great road going up, albeit, 5-7 miles, and coming down. It must be 14% or more since I hit 65mph on it. since I moved i belive they have paved sugarloaf Rd through to Nederland. However, back in the day it turned to dirt. Therefore, I would fly back down.

afterwhich, I would the proceding up to Nederland and then heading South I would end up outside Golden, and climb Lookout Mountain.Nice switchbacks and great view. Then I would head west, continue up to Evergreen, then down into Morrison and into Denver.

That was one of my favorite rides. Since you lived there I'm sure your familar with it.

I would do the Morgul every once in a great while just to relive the Red Zinger.

Ray


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## toyota (Sep 4, 2006)

raymonda said:


> That is one great road going up, albeit, 5-7 miles, and coming down. It must be 14% or more since I hit 65mph on it. since I moved i belive they have paved sugarloaf Rd through to Nederland. However, back in the day it turned to dirt. Therefore, I would fly back down.
> 
> afterwhich, I would the proceding up to Nederland and then heading South I would end up outside Golden, and climb Lookout Mountain.Nice switchbacks and great view. Then I would head west, continue up to Evergreen, then down into Morrison and into Denver.
> 
> ...


 Well I probably should have said that I stayed there for a few months instead of lived there. I went there for vacation a few times over the years and then in 2000 me and couple of friends decided to move there after college. They stayed but I left when it started snowing. lol

We lived near the Bus Stop so I did that training ride which I think was on Tuesdays. I was a decent cat 3 rider then but I was not even close to the same league as most of the racers there.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Map out the ride I outlined and on your next vacation try it, I'm sure you'll have a gas. 

ray


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## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

It's already been said;

but I'm about to poop my pants with delight.

All the deeper-pocketed folks will be unloading their record/chorus 10 speed gruppos on ebay and I'll be happy to clean up the scraps!

: P hehe

Oh I can't wait. It's a beautiful thing when "outdated" will work as well as Record/Chorus 10 speed.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

i'm impartial overall about the change... only thing i'm pissed at is that is you can't run new chorus w/ veloce cassette and chain... that is what i do... makes it pretty cheap over the long haul.... oh wells... we'll see what the options are when the time comes...

campy had to do something... IMHO all the prospective chorus/record buyers are now considering force/red... not good for campy... they had to do something big.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

As Wanski said Campy has to remain on top as they only make road gruppos, Sram Red bridged the weight gap as will the new DA7900 so it was time for something new - did anyone else catch a glimps of Super Record Brakeset on one of the Time machines during the Giro on Friday? It looked skeleton with less bones and finer lines - The BB hub is also ceramic for super record.


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

Richard said:


> Even if chain breakage doesn't become an issue, cog and chain wear certainly will.
> 
> 10 speed chains (from all the manufacturers) have shown markedly shorter life than 9 and significantly shorter life than the old 7/8 speeders.
> 
> ...


Not trying to hijack the thread, but I just got nearly 5,000 miles out of a 10 speed Record chain. My mechanic recommended NOT changing it (but I did); he said the wear was between 0.50% and 0.75%. Of course, I am a spinner, weigh 150 pounds, and clean my chain at least every 200-250 miles.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*bad advice..*



Speedi Pig said:


> Not trying to hijack the thread, but I just got nearly 5,000 miles out of a 10 speed Record chain. My mechanic recommended NOT changing it (but I did); he said the wear was between 0.50% and 0.75%. Of course, I am a spinner, weigh 150 pounds, and clean my chain at least every 200-250 miles.



Your mechanic was using a Park chain checker, or similar device, that mixes elongation and roller wear readings. A Campy chain with 5,000 on it will have very little elongation, if well maintained, but that does not mean it's not worn out. The rollers will be very worn and the sideplay will be much greater. If you put a new chain on the same cassette and didn't get chain skip on any of the cogs, you were lucky. You'll get more cog life by alternating three chains, changing each at 2500 miles or less. You can still use each chain for 5,000 miles, but spread the use out over two installations.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

I am finally going to be getting a 10 speed as soon as my new bike comes in. Kinda like 9 speed which my wife and I both still ride-we are always late to the party. Next upgrade will be a few months before someone announces new 12 speed cassettes!


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Hmm. This smells like desperation on Campy's part. Shimano's got them beat on production scale, efficiency, and I suspect the Campy elders don't want to go mass-market b/c that would mean Taiwan / China production and diluting the Campy brand.

And yet at the same time, Shimano has earned big chunks of the high-end market, squeezing Campy into more and more of a niche player. And Campy can't even claim better quality anymore (tried any Campy clothing lately? Meh.)

Now Shimano's been running very public electronic tests, with success... if Campy only does electronic, it's a me-too and nothing gained, in fact they've already lost face by not being first. So, you have to one-up them with 11 speed, which may explain the secrecy?

Either way, I think time is ticking for our friends at Campy. I'm still a bigot and I still like Campy levers better than anything else, but I don't touch the derailers or cranks while riding, so they could be any brand at all. I've been musing lately my next bike may be a mix - Campy brifters and SRAM/Shimano everything else, with a jtek making it work. For the price difference it's worth it.

.


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## elbee (Jun 10, 2007)

Creakyknees,

Have to agree, if you are willing to forego some street-cred then a hybrid of parts makes a lot of sense.

I am running Chorus levers and FD with FSA compact crankset, Ultegra RD and SRAM cassette and chain, tied together with a JTEK and all hanging off a Habanero frame. 

I am sure it would make some cringe but it all works as smooth as silk.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Creakyknees said:


> Hmm. This smells like desperation on Campy's part. Shimano's got them beat on production scale, efficiency, and I suspect the Campy elders don't want to go mass-market b/c that would mean Taiwan / China production and diluting the Campy brand.
> 
> And yet at the same time, Shimano has earned big chunks of the high-end market, squeezing Campy into more and more of a niche player. And Campy can't even claim better quality anymore (tried any Campy clothing lately? Meh.)
> 
> ...


So to summarize your email 

1 - Campy is scared like Ferrari was when Datsun came out with 240z ..........

2 - Shimano has taken a big chunk of the market and squeezed campagnolo into a niche market. 

3 - Campy quality sucks because their clothing line didn't reach your expectations.

4 - Campagnolo has lost face because Shimano has run some very public tests with their electronic groupset and in doing so has beaten campagnolo to the market.

Here is my attempt to address your concerns;

1 - DA 7900s prime objective is to bridge the gap in weight difference between Record and DA which at the moment stands at around 200g which in cycling terms is the difference between a light frame and a super light frame so I doubt campagnolo would be too worried that shimano has finally managed to bridge the gap that has existed for many years and one which Sram managed to bridge with the introduction of RED - if anything they probably wondered why it has taken them so long.

2 - Campagnolo has 9 types of 10 speed groupset (Champ, Triple, Comp, Xenon, Mirage, Veloce, Centaur, Chorus, Record) in comparison to Shimano or Sram's 3. Of course i didn't count Ultegra SL as a real groupset cause I didn't want to include the groupset variations campagnolo offers such as Veloce infiniti, Centaur Carbon or Record titanium. On the other hand consumers are Carbon hungry - the more carbon there is on your bike the better it is, you can argue against it but thats what the market wants and last time I checked there was not even an ounce of Carbon on any of Shimano's components which is hardly surprising as in essence the foundation of shimano has always been based on their Foundry which explains their resistance to accomodate carbon in their groupsets which is why you see a lot of FSA chainsets on Shimano gear. Therefore I fail to see how shimano has pushed campagnolo into a niche market cause it sure looks like Campag has pushed shimano into low profit OEM market for low end groupsets such as 8 speed Sora & 9 speed Tiagra market as for their other groupsets, who wants to install a 6 pound Ultegra groupset on their flashy new light weight carbon bike so the only groupset of note is the DA and its way behind the times due to its weight penalty and lower lifespan.

3 - I have never tried their socks but they do make the best quality groupsets in the world.

4 - It is tue that Shimano has been running very public tests but no release date or prices have been announced yet and I am not sure what they have beaten Campagnolo to coz Campy has had an electronic groupset since 2002 and of course it will be 11 speed which will make shimano's redundant from day 1 which might be the reason they did not release the groupset in spring as anticipated by the market. http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2003/features/campy_elec


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Campy= Ferrari?? Joke? Maybe Lancia. Nice stuff. Definately Italian. 99% of car owners have never heard of it. - TF


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Campagnolo's patent on the Ergopower ran out either this year or next.

This is the reason for the re-design of the EP. 11 speed transmission has been in the works for at least 4 years. The new EP is the perfect platform to introduce it.

Has nothing to do with what Shimano or SRAM are doing. Campagnolo does not see either as a competitor. Nobody competes with Shimano (they're way too big, and even Valentino knows that), and it would be foolish to react to a new product seeing marginal results in both sales and performance.

toonraid - point 4: game, set, match. Well done.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

just like to add, campy is def not like lancia... none of my campy stuff rusts...


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## Americano_a_Roma (Feb 10, 2005)

FYI, the cable pull on SRAM and Campy are very nearly identical. Thus, you can mix and match shifters and deraileurs, as long as your deraileur matches your cassette. I have those trick SRAM TT shifters on my TT bike, which is otherwise Campy, and it works fine. If you like the ergonomics of Campy, you could run Ergopower shifters with a SRAM deraileur and SRAM/Shimano cassette and wheels. No JTEK needed...


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Yankspan .... I am not sure that campagnolo see it your way - sure shimano is big but not that big on the racing bike scene, if anything i think shimano is concentrating on the MTB market which is much bigger - you see a lot more innovation from shimano on that scene than the road racing scene and I am sure they have lost a lot of sales over the past few years to Campagnolo & Sram as well as FSA cranks because they haven't kept up with the game.

I think campagnolo does react to the market - they survive not by supplying 8 or 9 speed OEM equipment or tons of MTB groupsets but by selling high end after market groupsets which makes it essential for them to stay on top of the game and that's why I think they have loads of goodies in the pipeline just waiting for pull from the market - that pull is created by drop in sales or innovation (copying) by competitors. If anything they have had an increase in sales cause we are seeing a lot more campag groupsets as original equipment from the bike manufacturers so if anything Shimano is acting on drop in DA & Ultegra sales lost to Centaur Carbon, Chorus & Record groupsets as well as Sram. However Sram made the sub 2kg cut with their red and now 7900 is supposed to be 200g lighter which also makes it sub 2kg whereas before Record was the only sub 2kg groupset so that is a good enough pull to react and bring something out of the goody bag.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*not really...*

SRAM shifters pull 3mm of cable on every shift, while Campy levers pull 2.5mm five times, 3mm twice and 3.5mm twice. Thus, the pulls are not really very close.

The j-tek at least reduces the overshifting, but still can do nothing to fix the over shifting on the first five shifts.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

toon - I've sat through enough sales meetings in Vicenza to confidently tell you that Campagnolo does not react to what Shimano does or what SRAM or FSA claim to be doing doing. It's as if the heads in Italy don't even know those companies exist, despite what the subsidiary GM's report back as far as sales numbers go.

It may seem so, but it really is just a coincidence that the component manufacturers are implementing changes at the same time.

The 11 speed stuff has been in the works for a few years now - long before SRAM ever thought about a road group.

Shimano isn't losing any sales to Centaur. You're talking about 80-85% of the market being held by the big S. Even if Campagnolo AND Sram's sales tripled next year, it wouldn't make a dent in Shimano's market share. 

What you see on pro-team bikes can not be used as a barometer for sales. Use OEM instead - when was the last time you saw a major bike brand being spec'd with Record or Chorus - or even Centaur - that wasn't painted Celeste?

You scratched the surface earlier when you listed all the 10sp groupsets Campagnolo offers. It confuses the OEM's as there's little to separate the groups, but huge price discrepancies. The OEM buyers get frustrated, and turn to Shimano where things are much simpler, and pricing is much more manageable.

If Campagnolo cut the groupsets down to maybe 4 or 5 - you'd see a better OEM battle heat up.


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

yanksphan said:


> What you see on pro-team bikes can not be used as a barometer for sales. Use OEM instead - when was the last time you saw a major bike brand being spec'd with Record or Chorus - or even Centaur - that wasn't painted Celeste?


Wasn't the Specialized S-works Tarmac offered in Record last year? 

//edit: oh yes. You were just pwn3d! :23:

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2007&spid=31830


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## barbedwire (Dec 3, 2005)

hammer_cycle said:


> This is killing me. I wait 7 years to upgrade and now I find out that the Record components I purchased yesterday are 'obsolete' in 3-4 months. Oh well!



Welcome to the world of Ebay, where old parts is only a click away.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Shimano's clothing isn't the greatest either...


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## flyboy50 (Mar 13, 2007)

> I've sat through enough sales meetings in Vicenza to confidently tell you that Campagnolo does not react to what Shimano does or what SRAM or FSA claim to be doing doing. It's as if the heads in Italy don't even know those companies exist, despite what the subsidiary GM's report back as far as sales numbers go.
> 
> It may seem so, but it really is just a coincidence that the component manufacturers are implementing changes at the same time.


BS

Of course they want you/us to believe they don't care what Shimano/SRAM are doing, but they're all selling road cycling components. Definitely NOT a coincidence.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Cruzer2424 said:


> Wasn't the Specialized S-works Tarmac offered in Record last year?
> 
> //edit: oh yes. You were just pwn3d! :23:
> 
> http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2007&spid=31830


Great, you found one bike. How many bikes were offered with Dura Ace? I have friends/riding buddies who purchased more Record groups last year than Specialized. The fact that you weren't even sure, and had to double check proves my point.

My point remains...

I'd be shocked if anyone in this forum could guess which frame manufacturer purchases more Campagnolo group than any other.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

flyboy50 said:


> BS
> 
> Of course they want you/us to believe they don't care what Shimano/SRAM are doing, but they're all selling road cycling components. Definitely NOT a coincidence.


What makes you believe this?


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## username89 (Jul 31, 2007)

yanksphan said:


> I'd be shocked if anyone in this forum could guess which frame manufacturer purchases more Campagnolo group than any other.


Do tell...

Derosa?
Bianchi?
Pinarello?
Scott?
Wilier?


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

I moonlight as a consultant from time to time and therefore see what goes on inside the boardrooms as opposed to external meetings. Every manager takes note of what their competitors are doing as it affects their sales, stress levels and sleeping/drinking patterns, but of course as a manager you always try to portray a positive image even to your staff let alone outsiders (distributors). Of course as quality market leader Campagnolo feel that they do not need to react to what lesser companies do 9in their eyes) and its the right image to portray externally but I can assure you a company that doesn't look at their competition would never have reached the top and remained their. 

I suspect you have been away from Campagnolo for a couple of years coz their attitude towards OEM has changed a lot and are now really pushing the OEM side. The picture might look a little different in states but here in Europe check out Colnago, Pinarello, De Rosa, Bianchi, Willier, Merckx, Ridley, Look, Time .... pretty much all of them are shipping their bikes with Campagnolo & Fulcrum offerings some exclusively (no shimano on Merckx site and he is not even Italian), those guys have a combined sales of close to 200 000 and most of that being carbon framed bikes! You might be looking at volume rather than $$$ but don't forget the lower end of the market such as alu treks and Giants that provide the volume but 1 Record groupset sold has the same profit margin as 20 Sora's & Tiagra's.

But I do see your point about Campagnolo's attitude as Europeans on General are not as aggressive in their sales and marketing and the high end brands tend to be a little more snobish a bit like ... we are the best and our customer know it ... but it is changing and the new generation is a bit more functional.


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## Cruzer2424 (Feb 8, 2005)

yanksphan said:


> Great, you found one bike. How many bikes were offered with Dura Ace? I have friends/riding buddies who purchased more Record groups last year than Specialized. The fact that you weren't even sure, and had to double check proves my point.
> 
> My point remains...
> 
> I'd be shocked if anyone in this forum could guess which frame manufacturer purchases more Campagnolo group than any other.


That was a joke, jerkface (that's a joke too, btw). I thought the ":23:" would get that across. Guess not.

I never disagreed, and not once in my entire life thought otherwise. In my entire tenure as a shop manager I've only sold a handful of Campy bikes (OEM, or otherwise). You asked if we could name a major bike brand that spec'd a bike with Campy. I did.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Here is a few more;

Colnago, Pinarello, DeRosa, Bianchi, Willier (i.e. the big 5) + every other italian frame maker (and there are lots of them) BTW those 5 make over 100 000 Racing bikes a year and i am sure majority are Campagnolo.

Then you go across to belgium and there you have Merckx & Ridley, Merckx uses Campagnolo exclusively and Ridley uses primarily campagnolo with the odd 105 and Red groupsets. Thise two probably make around 40 000 racing frames too.

Then there is the French contingent - Look, Time, Lappier who do both shimano and Campagnolo ...........

What they use is very much market driven and the market wants Carbon on Carbon or Italian on Italian and some lesser know brands use a Carbon Campagnolo groupset to beef up their brand .... either way Shimano looses everytime.

I am sure the picture is somewhat different in states with the big 3 (Spec, Trek, Cannondale) using primarily SRAM & Shimano while the asian market is also primarily low end shimano but what you forget is that the european market is much bigger for Road Racing than the US and Campagnolo is primarily interested in their Global Sales which means European Sales first (due to the larger turn-over) and then the US market.

For MTB US is the biggest market and therefore Campagnolo is already on the back foot coz the big three prefer streamlined number of suppliers - both Shimano & SRAM can supply both MTB & Road equipment and probably price it more attractively as a package and MTB being by far the bigger volume those 2 can gain better leverage with the Road groupsets for those guys.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Hello,

would you like to explain

Chain elongation - all reputable sources that I have read (Leonard Zinn, Parktools site, ...) state that (any noticable) "chain elongation" is a myth and all elongation is explained by roller/plate holes wear. Is it not so? Do you state that chain plates themselves become longer?
How alteration of 3 chanins may increase chain life? I may understand how it may increase cassete life, but for chains ... No clue
Regards,
Oleksandr



C-40 said:


> Your mechanic was using a Park chain checker, or similar device, that mixes elongation and roller wear readings. A Campy chain with 5,000 on it will have very little elongation, if well maintained, but that does not mean it's not worn out. The rollers will be very worn and the sideplay will be much greater. If you put a new chain on the same cassette and didn't get chain skip on any of the cogs, you were lucky. You'll get more cog life by alternating three chains, changing each at 2500 miles or less. You can still use each chain for 5,000 miles, but spread the use out over two installations.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

username89 said:


> Do tell...
> 
> Derosa?
> Bianchi?
> ...


Nice job - it's Wilier.

They purchase more groupsets than the other 4 brands you listed combined.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

toonraid said:


> I moonlight as a consultant from time to time and therefore see what goes on inside the boardrooms as opposed to external meetings. Every manager takes note of what their competitors are doing as it affects their sales, stress levels and sleeping/drinking patterns, but of course as a manager you always try to portray a positive image even to your staff let alone outsiders (distributors). Of course as quality market leader Campagnolo feel that they do not need to react to what lesser companies do 9in their eyes) and its the right image to portray externally but I can assure you a company that doesn't look at their competition would never have reached the top and remained their.
> 
> I suspect you have been away from Campagnolo for a couple of years coz their attitude towards OEM has changed a lot and are now really pushing the OEM side. The picture might look a little different in states but here in Europe check out Colnago, Pinarello, De Rosa, Bianchi, Willier, Merckx, Ridley, Look, Time .... pretty much all of them are shipping their bikes with Campagnolo & Fulcrum offerings some exclusively (no shimano on Merckx site and he is not even Italian), those guys have a combined sales of close to 200 000 and most of that being carbon framed bikes! You might be looking at volume rather than $$$ but don't forget the lower end of the market such as alu treks and Giants that provide the volume but 1 Record groupset sold has the same profit margin as 20 Sora's & Tiagra's.
> 
> But I do see your point about Campagnolo's attitude as Europeans on General are not as aggressive in their sales and marketing and the high end brands tend to be a little more snobish a bit like ... we are the best and our customer know it ... but it is changing and the new generation is a bit more functional.


I left the company last fall. OEM was always talked about as the "thing we need to work on" - but was really just lip service. It came down to pricing, and when buyers see Xenon vs Sora, and a $75 price difference, and (here's the key) delivery dates they can actually depend on - it's pretty easy to see why Shimano holds the majority of the marketplace.

It's funny - at the North American office, whenever the we were baffled by a decision from the main office, my boss would always remind me that the axis of the earth actually runs right through Vicenza. :wink5:

My point though remains - when we're talking about "reacting to the competition", it's because the business actually competes with another company. When you compare the two (or three now) - Shimano is so far and away ahead of Campagnolo and SRAM, that calling them "competitors" is over stating it. It would be like calling Toyota and Ferrari competitors.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

Cruzer2424 said:


> That was a joke, jerkface (that's a joke too, btw). I thought the ":23:" would get that across. Guess not.
> 
> I never disagreed, and not once in my entire life thought otherwise. In my entire tenure as a shop manager I've only sold a handful of Campy bikes (OEM, or otherwise). You asked if we could name a major bike brand that spec'd a bike with Campy. I did.


Gotcha. My bad, I just sold my sarcasm meter on eBay since I'll be upgrading to the new 11 speed, electronic version. :wink5:


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*misunderstood...*

You're reading things into my post that are NOT there. 

I never said that elongation is the stretching of the chain that's why the word elongation is used instead of the more common term of chain stretch. The chain does get longer, due to wear on the pins and the bushings forned into the inner sideplates. A common recommendation is to use a chain until it's length has increased by .5% or 1/4 inch over it's full length. This guideline works for most brands of chains, but not a Campy chain.

I also did NOT say that rotating chains makes the chain last longer. I said it will make the cassette last longer, although if you do not rotate chains, you will have to change them more often in order to avoid chain skip. 

You need to read more carefully.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Sorry, concerning the chain life/cog life I have definitely misread your post, shame on me 

But for elongation, stretch and roller wear - it is a different story.
First of all, words "elongation" and "stretch" bear the same meaning (at leat in this area), namely, "*Stretch ratio*, also known as *relative elongation*...", see for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongation_%28materials_science%29.
So your distinction between them has escaped me  so you need to select word more carefully 

Anyway, I do not see any other meaningful interpretation for your phrase "Your mechanic was using a Park chain checker, or similar device, that mixes elongation and roller wear readings". Have you meant that roller wear have to be distinguished from bushing/pins wear? And which tool has to be used to distinguish them? And if .5% is not applicable to Campy chains then which rule is? And what exactly make Campy chains so different from other manufacturer chains?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*education...*

The defintions that you have cited have nothing to do with chain wear, since the materials to not stretch or elongate due to the forces applied to them. Chain stretch is NOT due to deformation.

Pin and bushing wear make the chain longer and increase the chain pitch from it's original .500 inch value, causing the chain to ride higher up on the teeth of the cogs. Roller wear does not change the chain pitch.

The simplest method to measure stretch, elongation, or change in pitch (pick YOUR favorite term) is to use a scale. A new chain will measure 12 inches over 24 pins. When it's elongated .5%, it will measure 12-1/16" over 24 pins or 48-1/4" over 96 pins. A precision scale, placed on the edge of a pin will completely cover the pin at the opposite end, when the chain is new. When this pin is almost half exposed, you've reached the maximum elongation that's commonly recommended. Roller wear can be measured by inserting the internal jaws of calipers between the rollers and measuring the distance between them. This dimension varies quite a bit between brands. Campy rollers only measure .200-.205 inch when new, while Shimano and KMC will measure about .010 inch more, since the rollers are smaller in diameter and probably have a little more clearance with their bushing. I've decided to trash a Campy chain when the distance between the roller gets into the .235-240 inch range. By that time, the side clearance will have increased to arounf .013 inch, which is pretty loose.

The difference with a Campy chain is the pins and/or the side plates are much more wear resistant than other brands. Even after 6,000 miles, I've measured as little as 1/16" elongation over the full length of a chain. Unfortunately, the rollers still wear nearly as much as other brands and the side clerance still increases. Technically, you could keep using the chain for a lot longer, but at some point the shifting will deteriorate due to the increase in side clearance. Leaving a single chain on a cassette will also cause chain skip with a new chain, even though the old chain was not "stretched". That's why its important to alternate the use of several chains, if you don't want to toss a cassette after only one chain and 6,000 miles.

In reality, the .5% elongation suggestion is just that, a suggestion. You could faithfully change a chain at that point and still find that a second chain skips on one or more cogs. It depends a lot on how much a single cog is used. I just happen to use the 19T the most, followed by the 21T, with all the climbing I do. Someone on flatter terrain might spread the wear more evenly among the cogs and get more mileage using a single chain on a cassette. I found out the hard way that I could wear out Ti cogs in less than 4,000 miles, so I no longer waste money on Ti cogs and faithfully rotate several chains.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

C-40 said:


> The defintions that you have cited have nothing to do with chain wear, since the materials to not stretch or elongate due to the forces applied to them. Chain stretch is NOT due to deformation.


Exactly, that is why term "elongation" is not very suitable here. But as soon as we have agreed that "elongation" does not mean "elongation" all is Ok 



> The difference with a Campy chain is the pins and/or the side plates are much more wear resistant than other brands.


Have you comapred with for example nickel-plated chains (several brands make them)? Side plates of such chain should have very high wear resistence.



> I just happen to use the 19T the most, followed by the 21T, with all the climbing I do.


Yes, I as well mostly ride 2 cogs -19 and 17 (as well a lot of climbing but I have 50 front).

BTW, I sincerely believe that your techical posts are one the best on this site, it explains why I was so disappointed when you started to speak about "elongation" (and I have not realised that this time you do not mean it in strict techical sense (i.e. as material elongation)). Sorry for misunderstanding.

Regards,

Oleksandr


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

IMO Campy passed Shimano with Ergo. Then when they came out with 10 speed they moved further ahead and finally when they added carbon they left Dura Ace spinning. Both work well, however, not having cable hanging out all over the place, weight, finish and durability is on Campy's side. Plus Campy's stuff looks great while Shimano's looks like crap. I do like their new carbon crank but UT is a better design, weighs less and cost less.

BTW, Campy has been working on an electric drive train for at least 2 years.


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## yanksphan (May 18, 2005)

raymonda said:


> BTW, Campy has been working on an electric drive train for at least 2 years.


Actually, the electronic transmission has been in the labs for longer than that - you've just seen more reports and pics of it over the last 2 years.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

yanksphan said:


> I left the company last fall. OEM was always talked about as the "thing we need to work on" - but was really just lip service. It came down to pricing, and when buyers see Xenon vs Sora, and a $75 price difference, and (here's the key) delivery dates they can actually depend on - it's pretty easy to see why Shimano holds the majority of the marketplace.


I am disappointed in you Yankspan .... comparing a 10 speed campagnolo groupset with a 8 speed shimano groupset and wondering why there is a price difference!

I don't know where you have been getting your shimano info from but based on 2 first hand sources, first being a shimano distributor and the other a famous Bike producer here in europe Shimano had huge supply problems in 2007 and 2008 (at least on the MTB range). But don't take my word for it - you will see plenty of tell tale signs in shops too atleast here is europe, lots of campy road bikes and also many tell tale sign on MTB's too such as a rise in non shimano hydraulic brakes and chainsets as well as a rise in campag and SRAM equiped road bikes. On the other hand another friends who deals with Campagnolo speaks highly of their B2B system and how efficient they are with processing and delivering orders on time.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

TurboTurtle said:


> Campy= Ferrari?? Joke? Maybe Lancia. Nice stuff. Definately Italian. 99% of car owners have never heard of it. - TF


Mmmm Lancia!









M


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## sgt_hedgehog (Jun 28, 2004)

*Campy Electric 2009*



DIRT BOY said:


> Well it looks like more and more the rumors are true for 2009.
> 
> Super Record, Record and Chorus should be *11 Speed* for 2009!  :cryin:
> 
> ...


Dunno bout 11 sp, but we do know there is definitely gonna be electric:

http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=234:giro-ditalia-campagnolo-electric-shifters-up-close&catid=5:tech-tests&Itemid=3


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## Tonis_t (Jul 29, 2007)

MShaw said:


> Mmmm Lancia!
> 
> 
> 
> ...











This one is more fameous. 6 time wrc champion. Your picture is the Group B version Lancia 037


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## ProsperityRed (Aug 21, 2007)

group B was awesome!


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

yanksphan said:


> Heh...for Veloce maybe.
> 
> Record is up over $350


I'm not wagging my tongue, but this makes me feel better about paying $30 on Ebay for 9-speed SRAM chains and cassettes.


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## smokva (Jul 21, 2004)

toyota said:


> 14% grades in the 38/23? thats not advisable and Im a guy that uses large gears in the hills. you must look pretty silly doing 20-30 rpm.


Last week (after few days of climbing), on final 7km (average gradient 9,5%) of Passo Manghen I had average cadence of 43 rpm :cryin:
Similar cadence I had on other steep monster alpine climbs


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## newridr (Mar 7, 2003)

Cruzer2424 said:


> Wasn't the Specialized S-works Tarmac offered in Record last year?
> 
> //edit: oh yes. You were just pwn3d! :23:
> 
> ...


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## newridr (Mar 7, 2003)

yanksphan said:


> Actually, the electronic transmission has been in the labs for longer than that - you've just seen more reports and pics of it over the last 2 years.


Do we really need something else that's battery operated? Fine for racing, but on long rides, day after day, I don't want to have to worry about whether a battery is going to die on me. Just one more thing to have to check and replace on a regular basis.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

I am a bit surprised that there is so much negativity - Campagnolo will still be making 10 speed groupsets, non electric groupsets and the old ergo's so not sure why the complaints! All they are doing is to provide an option for those who want something different ... Their top of the range groupset has always been the best of the best and now that both SRAM and Shimano have come up with new groupsets to challenge record they needed to raise the bar to maintain the gap between them and others ... is that bad?

As it was Record was pretty much a perfect setup - lasted longer, was lighter had lots of Carbon bling so how can you improve on that ... well you couldn't the only way to go was either shave a few grams or go 11 speed, as it turned out they did both on Super Record 11 speed.

In reallity I think most of the negativity is coming from Shimophiles who are really upset that the new 7900 has been upstaged by such a dramatic development in the top of the range campy groupset - as for the new 7900 - I think its ugly atleast the old 7800 had lots of bright & shiny metal to complement my old steel frames but the new one is neither Carbon nor shiny.


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

toonraid said:


> I am a bit surprised that there is so much negativity - Campagnolo will still be making 10 speed groupsets, non electric groupsets and the old ergo's so not sure why the complaints! All they are doing is to provide an option for those who want something different ... Their top of the range groupset has always been the best of the best and now that both SRAM and Shimano have come up with new groupsets to challenge record they needed to raise the bar to maintain the gap between them and others ... is that bad?
> 
> As it was Record was pretty much a perfect setup - lasted longer, was lighter had lots of Carbon bling so how can you improve on that ... well you couldn't the only way to go was either shave a few grams or go 11 speed, as it turned out they did both on Super Record 11 speed.
> 
> In reallity I think most of the negativity is coming from Shimophiles who are really upset that the new 7900 has been upstaged by such a dramatic development in the top of the range campy groupset - as for the new 7900 - I think its ugly atleast the old 7800 had lots of bright & shiny metal to complement my old steel frames but the new one is neither Carbon nor shiny.


There would be just as much mockery if Shimano, Sram, Sturmey-Archer or anyone else came out with an 11 speed group. Think about it....do we really need 11 gears? This isn't a question of what you think Shimano's aesthetics should be, its a question of do we need 11?
Most people are perceiving the 11 speed as just a gimmick. If it ain't broke, then don't fix it.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Ok lets look at it differently .......... the problem with the standard 11-25 (11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25) is that its missing 2 very important cogs 16 and 18 which I know lots of people like - of course you could swap out cogs but then you will loose something else or as in the case of switching to 13-26 you'll miss on 11 & 12 (13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26) now 11 speed will definitely fill that gap. I also think it will make a better set up for wider ranges such as the new 12 - 27.

Looking at alternatives, i.e. shimano's best selling cassette 12-27 is missing the 18 (12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27) ........... you get the picture.

So don't look at it from a 10 speed v 11 speed debate but would it be usefull to have an extra cog in the back without a weight or price penalty?


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

yep - there are a lot of cassettes that are 'missing' a gear in the campy range... i had the 11-23 until missing that 18 pissed me off, now on a 12-23, but sometimes miss the 11 (tho rarely)... now you can also have a wider range such as a 12-26 - that would handle most things and still retain a straight 1 tooth diff from 12-19 !

saying we don't need 11speed could be a valid point... but where would you have drawn the line? 7? 9? 10? if more gears did not come out, how would you even know?

also, good point re: weight... i have not been dissappointed with campy design and quality, so i believe it will be reliable and come in at a lower weight to boot... thats a double plus....

as for the battery, i think you'd be pretty crazy to buy a 1st gen super record, so its not even a consideration for most... except those who must have teh latest and greatest at any price - and they sure will be happy with the product! but in 3 yrs time or whatever when they come with an all new one, it may be much lighter, better and cheaper.. and may even come in chorus ...its all good...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

toonraid said:


> As it was Record was pretty much a perfect setup - lasted longer, was lighter had lots of Carbon bling so how can you improve on that ... well you couldn't the only way to go was either shave a few grams or go 11 speed, as it turned out they did both on Super Record 11 speed.


Campy's Top 3 groups will all be 11 speed. SR, Record and Chrous. So if you only want Campy 10s, then Centuar is you highes group.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

WANSKY

Super record is not electric, just lighter due to more carbon and ceramics and it gets its own BB. No word on release of electric groupset yet.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

DIRT BOY

10 speed Record will still be available - even now you can still buy 9 speed record shifters from Campy its just that shops don't stock them but they can order.


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## Jim Nazium (Feb 3, 2004)

IMHO:

Eleven cogs is ridiculous. I'm running a 12-25 which is plenty of range for me, and if I ever need a lower gear for climbing I can live without the 12 and go to a 13-26 or 13-29. 

I don't want to wish bad luck on Campy, which is a company with great cycling heritage and whose products I generally like, but part of me hopes this product will flop and go away like new Coke.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

oh my bad, i thought super rec was gunna be the electric campy .... that's weird, i always thought of record as being WW chorus, now there is WW super rec?? lol...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

toonraid said:


> DIRT BOY
> 
> 10 speed Record will still be available - even now you can still buy 9 speed record shifters from Campy its just that shops don't stock them but they can order.


I know. But I wonder how long before Campy STOPS making RECORD 10. I just upgraded my shifters in Jan, so I am on a full Recored drivetain that's less than a year old.

Now with new 11 Speed RECORD cranks coming, I hope the 10 speed versions will drop so I can finally upgrade to those. Or I am going to go with FSA K-Force Light.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Jim Nazium said:


> I don't want to wish bad luck on Campy, which is a company with great cycling heritage and whose products I generally like, but part of me hopes this product will flop and go away like new Coke.


I am with you. I am glad that living here in flat Florida, I will never need 11 speeds.

But the thought of a straight block 11-21 so sweet. Or a 12-23 that's just about straight through would be nice. With 11 speeds I could go with a single ring up front.

But, I doubt I will ever change over and hope in a way it does fail.

What happens if Shimano comes through with their 14 speed drivetrain they have a patnent on? Yes, 135mm spacing will be needed.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*depends on your terrain...*



DIRT BOY said:


> I am with you. I am glad that living here in flat Florida, I will never need 11 speeds.
> 
> But the thought of a straight block 11-21 so sweet. Or a 12-23 that's just about straight through would be nice. With 11 speeds I could go with a single ring up front.
> 
> ...


Not everyone lives in the flatlands. I'm looking forward to a 11-25 or 11-27 with the 16T, and an 11-28 or 11-29 without it, to got with my 50/34. I'm getting by with an 11-25 right now, but I've not ridden my steepest routes or Idaho Springs to the top of Mt. Evans yet.


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## carbon13 (Dec 23, 2007)

Wait for electric!


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## RoyIII (Feb 24, 2007)

I'm out of money for the duration - I have to live with 10.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

I hate this 11 speed business mostly because I know I don't need it, yet I will fall prey at some point and buy it.

I have a bike with 2006 Record (last group before current update), and a bike with the current DuraAce (7850?). It's a total wash between the two. Campy looks better, is lighter (but meaningless for me). DuraAce is smoother shifting (even a friend immediately noticed when he took a spin on my bike), and I think the hoods are more comfortable. That's not to say the Campy isn't good shifting, it is, and everyone knows when you shift on it.

Sounds like I need to buy a couple extra chains and cassettes for both groups though, as both are going to be outdated as of 2009. (I believe Campy 2006 is compat with 2008 Campy drivetrain)


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

C-40 said:


> Not everyone lives in the flatlands. I'm looking forward to a 11-25 or 11-27 with the 16T, and an 11-28 or 11-29 without it, to got with my 50/34. I'm getting by with an 11-25 right now, but I've not ridden my steepest routes or Idaho Springs to the top of Mt. Evans yet.


True. That's why I said "I" won't need it.
If durability is there, it might catch on with a lot of folks that really want the new ratios that 11 speeds can offer. With compact gearings, you can have some great combo to tackle ANY terrain and still keeps close spacing in back.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

C-40 its going to be 12-27



C-40 said:


> Not everyone lives in the flatlands. I'm looking forward to a 11-25 or 11-27 with the 16T, and an 11-28 or 11-29 without it, to got with my 50/34. I'm getting by with an 11-25 right now, but I've not ridden my steepest routes or Idaho Springs to the top of Mt. Evans yet.


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

Perhaps it might be a good idea to keep an eye out through the summer as campagnolo usually does close outs on chainsets - well they did it last time with outboard cups introduction.



DIRT BOY said:


> Now with new 11 Speed RECORD cranks coming, I hope the 10 speed versions will drop so I can finally upgrade to those. Or I am going to go with FSA K-Force Light.


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## newridr (Mar 7, 2003)

toonraid said:


> C-40 its going to be 12-27


So they add an extra cog and still don't give the added range of the new Shimano DA which will offer an 11-28 cassette. Brilliant.

On the new DA cassettes: "Available combinations will be: 11-21T, 11-23T, 11-25T, 11-27T, 11-28T, 12-23T, 12-25T, 12-27T."

http://www.light-bikes.de/eng/2008/06/01/shimano-dura-ace-7900-2009/


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

I think campy's idea was to fill in the missing cogs with their 11 speed and not turning it into a mountain bike as is the case with shimano, hell you could even put on a 11-32 with their Tiagra or the brand spanking new Sora STIs which has finally been updated to 9 speed - that would be perfect for you!


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## newridr (Mar 7, 2003)

toonraid said:


> I think campy's idea was to fill in the missing cogs with their 11 speed and not turning it into a mountain bike as is the case with shimano, hell you could even put on a 11-32 with their Tiagra or the brand spanking new Sora STIs which has finally been updated to 9 speed - that would be perfect for you!


Sorry, but I just don't see the need to go up in one tooth increments. In fact, one of the major benefits to campy was always that you can upshift over multiple cogs, unlike shimano.

And yes, there are times when I, like many others, do a ton of climbing. I personally like 10k feet of climbing in a day and need a little more range than an oh so speedy and compact 11-23.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*let's get it over*



newridr said:


> Sorry, but I just don't see the need to go up in one tooth increments.


Agree. Let's see them go right to an 11-34 straight block. Enough futzing around.

This debate is hillarious. I recall the exact same discussion all the way back to 5 speed going to 6 speed (well before the internet, of course), and every increment thereafter. Just insert new numbers, and everyone says the same thing.

We're at the point where more cogs should definitely be used for wider range. I find myself shifting several cogs at a time, anway. 

Then again, many of us have managed to ride fixed gears up and down mountains on double centuries. Not much marketing opportunity there, though.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*12-27?*



toonraid said:


> C-40 its going to be 12-27


A 12-27 cassette would be fine, coupled with a 53/39 or 53/39/30 triple, but worthless with a compact crank. If Campy is too stupid to at least tack on a 27 to their existing 11-25, then I will have no use for it. An 11-27 is a no brainer and an 11-29 only requires the last two cogs to be 26-29 instead of 25-27. If Campy drops the ball on this one, they'll get no 11 speed purchases from me.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*let's get it over*



newridr said:


> Sorry, but I just don't see the need to go up in one tooth increments.


Agree. Let's see them go right to an 11-34 straight block. Enough futzing around.

This debate is hillarious. I recall the exact same discussion all the way back to 5 speed going to 6 speed (well before the internet, of course), and every increment thereafter. Just insert new numbers, and everyone says the same thing.

We're at the point where more cogs should definitely be used for wider range. I find myself shifting several cogs at a time, anway. 

Then again, many of us have managed to ride fixed gears up and down mountains on double centuries. Not much marketing opportunity there, though.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

I guess it is time to somebody to come up and to end this war of numbers with variator or another type of continuos transmission.



newridr said:


> Do we really need something else that's battery operated? Fine for racing, but on long rides, day after day, I don't want to have to worry about whether a battery is going to die on me. Just one more thing to have to check and replace on a regular basis.


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## carbon13 (Dec 23, 2007)

l am not upgrading from ten till someone offers a 12, that way l can jump 2 cogs to feel any real difference.


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## newridr (Mar 7, 2003)

C-40 said:


> A 12-27 cassette would be fine, coupled with a 53/39 or 53/39/30 triple, but worthless with a compact crank. If Campy is too stupid to at least tack on a 27 to their existing 11-25, then I will have no use for it. An 11-27 is a no brainer and an 11-29 only requires the last two cogs to be 26-29 instead of 25-27. If Campy drops the ball on this one, they'll get no 11 speed purchases from me.


+1 on that one. The whole idea behind multiple cogs is to have a range of gears for a variety of terrains. 

Full stop.


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## newridr (Mar 7, 2003)

yanksphan said:


> I left the company last fall. QUOTE]
> 
> Hey Yanksphan, maybe you could pass this thread along to your former buddies at Campy. ;-)


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## mwestray (Jan 4, 2008)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/tech/2008/news/06-04


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## Cevan (Jul 19, 2004)

I upgraded from 9 to 10 speed for the 18 tooth gear I always felt was missing (12-23). When I first heard of Campy's new 11 speed cassettes, I laughed. There are no gaps in a 10 speed 12-23, but in reality, if I could tack a 25 on my cassette, some of those long steep climbs around my house might be more enjoyable. I don't need an 11 but I know there are those that would prefer a 11-23 that has the 18. 

What about Shimano's 14 speed 1/2 chain/cassette that they got a patent on back in 2000?


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