# Tubes----the old dilemma: to patch or not to patch?



## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Hi all.

Was meaning to post this last week and see what your thoughts were. It's maybe kind of stupid, I realize, but it never ceases to amaze how this issue can engender such spirited discussion and thought it wouldn't hurt to ask here----hope it is not much to ask that this thread doesn't also turn into another p#ssing lecture-fest, with people expounding on things like the total build of the tubes, the tire, the rims, or if whether by the word "tubes" I meant the front wheel and/or complete bike. Am just simply asking, if you ride and use clinchers, what are your thoughts/reasons about patching 700C tubes for clinchers 19mm up through 28mm .

So, that said, here's a pic; was on a ride the week before, unfortunately got caught in one of Belgium's notorious invisible potholes, and immediately double flatted (pinched) both wheels:








After getting back, and starting the patching process that evening, I realized I've always had sort of an informal rule of patching tires until they have four patches on them, after four, they get binned. Equally, I've ridden with guys who, if they flat, they pitch that tube no matter what (even pin hole flats) without second thought (_I'll bet that is you, robt57 , j/k ya_). Thus, I am now wondering, do you guys have any informal rule with yourself about patching??? I guess a bigger reason I got to wondering about this is because of the last two years move by many of us to wider, newer rims (23-24mm) and also 25-27mm tires. Does that even make a difference (the more air volume thing) when considering whether to continue patching tubes or not? Anyone actually know???

Thanks.

P.S. I stuck the chopstick in the pinch flat holes, and put a ruler down, only just for a frame of reference to see whether you'd all patch this or not. Part of me is saying "patch it like always, you idiot.." But the other part of me is saying: "wait a minute here, is there possibly a reason I shouldn't be patching???........"


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

I patch tubes.

it's part of my reuse/recycle mindset and it's cheaper than buying new ones.

if a patch will cover the hole, then it should work.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Big hole through both sides? I'd toss them. Chances of a leaky patch are higher than with a single small hole.

But when I was poor, I'd patch them with rubber cement and patches cut from totally dead tubes. In reality the answer depends on how thrifty you are.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

I patch when a) not on a seem b)not a pinch flat. I usually toss the pinch flats b/c I see them as excessive damage. I'll surely patch a small puncture when possible.

I do save my old tubes though, eventually to be used as a liner inside a homemade pannier.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

If I need to change out a tube on a ride, I toss the old tube along with the CO2 that I recycle in the nearest bin. I'm not riding around with that thing hanging out of my pocket, another accident waiting to happen. At home, I'll patch a tube it it's a small puncture. Any rips or tears and it's tossed.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Tubes are pretty cheap, and not worth my time to find the leak and patch it. I just replace the tube, then add the old one to the recycle bin.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

I wonder if there's anything to say on this subject that hasn't been said multiple times in the hundreds of posts in dozens of threads over the years that I've been reading here. I know I haven't heard anything new on it in a long time. Some riders patch 'em, some trash 'em, some patch once, some patch unlimited times, etc., etc., etc. 

For a variety of reasons.

I patch. If it can be patched, I patch it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

JCavilia said:


> I wonder if there's anything to say on this subject that hasn't been said multiple times in the hundreds of posts in dozens of threads over the years that I've been reading here. ...


No, but we'll say it anyway.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

"Three strikes (flats); you're out."

That's my rule. I'm sure most tubes would handle many more patches if I was thriftier.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

What are these tubes you speak of?


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Peter P. said:


> "Three strikes (flats); you're out."
> 
> That's my rule. I'm sure most tubes would handle many more patches if I was thriftier.


I will stay with a tube as long as it seems like it is ok. I am back to Gatorskins so I probably only get 2 or 3 flats this coming year.


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## Manning (Jul 8, 2010)

Patch like always you idiot! 

I've had tubes finally leak at the valve/tube joint after 10+ years, and the patches are holding fine. Properly done, patches are permanent. Way back when running 1.9" tires on the XC mtb, I'd get pinch flats regularly. So there would be tubes with a dozen or more patches on them.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks for posting, gang. Other than our usual resident self-absorbers who post with their superiority to feel/hear themselves important, it's kind of interesting to see others that still patch no matter what and some that won't patch---especially if it is a pinch flat. I see also no one really knows, if it truly even technically matters, about the question if the newer 23-25mm width rims, with their expanded volumes, lower overall pressures along with the rims being much shallower in depth because they are "tubeless ready' (_oh, yeah, there it is, one can see that this has been discussed (in relation to patching )to death on RBR, lol, 5 years ago and of course, rim & tire development have been stagnant since that time_), anyhoe should these newer developments possibly cause a person to hesitate in terms of patching and/or types of patching. There are teams here, mainly the junior teams that feed French/Dutch/Belgium biggies, who train exclusively on clinchers, and since it is well-known that the money is not ever-flowing, they repair stuff frequently. It'd be interesting to hear what their take is, especially given the fact that when these groups show up to big spring local Belgian training rides, well, the dam# ride might as just as well be a race for the front group especially when you see and hear the speeds avg'd for 150-200km rides. Anyhow, it is possibly best we all stand back at this moment and Iet our RBR wonderalls of lectureth knowledge, as the Dutch would say, floweth their peas forth.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Jwiffle,

I couldn't resist this and don't know if you'll get the references, but in response to your question:

"...they don't like a _sushi girl_, and they definitely are _white punks on dope_ who will _talk to you later_..."


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Headloss,

You make your own panniers? That's awesome. Any pics you could share???


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## scott967 (Apr 26, 2012)

No hard rule, but if I have a tire that loses pressure faster than the other one, I tend to toss that tube at the next flat.

scott s.
.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

I always patch a tube with one hole. After that, depends on the tube. If a cheapo $4 kenda, nothing special, I probably toss it after 2 patches. 
If a $14. latex, or 10. lightweight butyl, I would probably patch 3 holes, maybe 4 before giving up. 
I tend to save 2 or 3 of the old retired old ones for valve parts or to use the rubber for something DIY like headloss.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

BelgianHammer said:


> "...they don't like a _sushi girl_, and they definitely are _white punks on dope_ who will _talk to you later_..."


You beat me to it. My favorite Tubes. No patching required.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

BelgianHammer said:


> Jwiffle,
> 
> I couldn't resist this and don't know if you'll get the references, but in response to your question:
> 
> "...they don't like a _sushi girl_, and they definitely are _white punks on dope_ who will _talk to you later_..."


That a Way Feeble comment.

Anyway as to the topic. Some people patch some don't. I guess it depends What do Want From Life.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> That a Way Feeble comment.
> 
> Anyway as to the topic. Some people patch some don't. I guess it depends What do Want From Life.


A baby's arm, holding an apple.


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## 195cranky (Jun 25, 2013)

Road tubeless clinchers.
No tubes.
No tube patching needed.
No pinch flats.
No deciding on patching or no patching.
No brainer.
Run sealant. 
Seals when punctured.
No problem.
Now 2015 - there is new technology called tubeless! Wait, it has been around for the road for some years now. Not so new but seems to be a novel idea to most of the posters above. 
Train and race on it. Simple and easy. Rides smoother, better, maybe even faster!?
And to answer OP ? Never patched. Tubes are cheap compared to time and effort that may go to waste with patch problems. Not worth patching. Recycle bad tube, put new in when needed.
Did I mention there is this concept called tubeless?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Most people who say they don't patch is because they don't know how to patch so the frustration of patch failure isn't worth the hassle.

I patch until some sort of damage has happened to the tube that prevents further patching. 

Patching is far cheaper than a new tube, if you know how to patch it takes almost as much time to patch as it does to replace the tube.

Patching leaves less waste in landfills though a few LBS's can recycle them.

Patching conserves natural resources better.

If you just replace the tube and happen to have two flats you're screwed because you don't know how to patch, or call your mommy on the cell phone so she can come get you.

Tubeless tires requires more maintenance;

working tires on and off the rim is quite a chore unless you use soapy water;

a lot of tire levers aren't strong enough; 

repairing punctures are more difficult;

if the sealant can't seal the hole out on the road it will be a major chore in terms of time and complication to fix it; 

need an air compressor to properly install the tire;

you need to refill the tire with fresh sealant every 3 months.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

froze said:


> ...or call your mommy on the cell phone so she can come get you.


Fortunately, my mommy loves me and will come pick me up regardless of how far.


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## mikiek (Aug 18, 2014)

BelgianHammer said:


> Other than our usual resident self-absorbers who post with their superiority to feel/hear themselves important


People don't do that here, do they?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

It's easier to carry one spare tube and a patch kit than it is to carry four spare tubes, so yeah, I patch.

And when I get home I'll patch the tube that flatted during the ride and use it again. And if I patch on the road, I ain't gonna swap out the patched tube for a new one. Shux, I've used glueless patches on the road and rode on them so long that I forgot they were there and was surprised to find them the next time I opened up the wheel.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I have started carrying a small tube of sealant on my commuter. Clinchers with tubes, not tubeless. It should work and seal a puncture long enough to make it home without having to change a tube in the middle of the night. I use the Vittoria Pit Stop. Has anyone tried this with tubes?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> Fortunately, my mommy loves me and will come pick me up regardless of how far.


Well, isn't that special. 

See I look at it like this: I love my wife not to bother her to come rescue me like I'm her little boy, so since I am a husband and not her son, and she's my wife, thus as a loving husband I chose to act like one I will do everything and anything to protect her from having to perform mommy duties towards her husband.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

froze said:


> See I look at it like this: I love my wife not to bother her to come rescue me like I'm her little boy, so since I am a husband and not her son, and she's my wife, thus as a loving husband I chose to act like one I will do everything and anything to protect her from having to perform mommy duties towards her husband.


Happy Valentine's Day.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I think both of you need some quality time with your bikes, away from the keyboard.

Go ride!🚴


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> Happy Valentine's Day.


It always is. About once a week I give flowers or a plant etc to her, and I've doing this for over 30 years of marriage to her. Yeah, I know, I'm really old fashion and out of date with this sort of treatment to a woman.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

froze said:


> It always is. About once a week I give flowers or a plant etc to her, and I've doing this for over 30 years of marriage to her. Yeah, I know, I'm really old fashion and out of date with this sort of treatment to a woman.


Must have a lot of plants.


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## 195cranky (Jun 25, 2013)

Froze...you posted the following...

_Tubeless tires requires more maintenance;
working tires on and off the rim is quite a chore unless you use soapy water;
a lot of tire levers aren't strong enough; 
if the sealant can't seal the hole out on the road it will be a major chore in terms of time and complication to fix it; 
need an air compressor to properly install the tire;
you need to refill the tire with fresh sealant every 3 months._

This type of erroneous and misleading information is what keeps patchers patching and those who may have open minds from trying tubeless and learning as well as enjoying the multiple benefits of road tubeless. So let's address each false bit one at a time...

_working tires on and off the rim is quite a chore unless you use soapy water;_
Wrong, way wrong. I have mounted tubeless tires without the need for soapy water and occasionally (depending on rim) have used soapy water. Not sure how this can be construed as difficult when all you have to do is walk over to your sink, drip a little liquid soap, fill with warm water, stir, take paper towel sheet, dip, walk over to your tire, wipe sidewall bead, install tire on rim. If that is too difficult then I guess putting in a bar end plug makes you break a sweat. Dismounting a tubeless tire is no different than a tubed clincher. In fact, you don't have to worry about ruining the tube in the process with a tubeless set-up. And this is not an issue out on the road once the tire has been ridden a few times. just like many new clinchers that can be put on by hand with no levers needed after a few rides, a tubeless tire may need a lever just to pop on the last bit of bead. No biggee.

_a lot of tire levers aren't strong enough; 
_So, get a longer, bigger, stronger tire lever if you are having any problems. Do make sure they have rounded pry edges. The ones that come with Maxxis Padrones work fine. All the Park, Topeak, etc... levers I have work fine. Basically, it may come down to the type of rim you have and how deep the center channel is for seating and rolling bead onto rim. The deeper the center channel the easier the mount will be and the less fight, concerns, soapy water, bigger levers will be needed. If you have a shallow channel, yes mounting a tubeless tire may be more difficult. The issue may be the problem with your tubeless rim choice. Not the tubeless tire problem.

_if the sealant can't seal the hole out on the road it will be a major chore in terms of time and complication to fix it; _And how is this different from a tubed clincher? If you have this big of a problem on the road, it is a big problem for both types. And here is what you do with both; remove one tire bead off rim, remove tube if you have one, pull new tube out or your patched old tube, use dollar bill on hole if this is a workable solution, insert tube, mount tire bead, inflate, continue riding. What's the issue here? A little sealant that needs to be wiped off or shaken out? Once you get home you can clean up and install new tire which you would probably do either type. This is not an issue and does not to be made one.

_need an air compressor to properly install the tire;
_So the last three tubeless tires that I installed and inflated for the first time with just a floor pump was my imagination? Imagine that! And if your floor pump doesn't do the trick, just use half a cartridge and give it a quick shot to inflate. Save that cartridge and use it if needed on a another tubeless install. If you need and have a compressor, fire it up and use it. If you are on the road and just use a hand pump, well, carry a cartridge. It is 2015 and that technology seems to work pretty well.

_you need to refill the tire with fresh sealant every 3 months.
_Sure, wise idea and good preventative planning. Could also be more than 3 months, could be a need for less time to refill. Depends on dryness of climate, mileage and use, or bead/rim/valve interface and sealant amount need. Some take more, some take less. But this is no more difficult than lubing your chain once a month, or lubing pulley wheel centers, or re-torquing stem steer tube bolts when needed. Not sure why this is difficult when there is so much benefit in eliminating pinch flats, and punctures. I also find that there seem to be less sidewall cuts with tubeless because of the thicker, stronger, harder sidewalls that are run at lower pressures thus the cut debris deflects off with much less damage. I should also mention that is it pretty cool to run over something, hear the puncture hiss and immediate sealing of hole with sealant while continuing to ride with just a bit of pressure loss and getting home and seeing the sealant sticking out where the sealed hole now is located. By the way, the same puncture would find tubed clincher on the side of the road fixing a flat. Please note, tubeless rider still riding. This may keep you in the group ride, keep you in the team training ride, and keep you in the road race, TT, or crit. Oh...that is way more work with a tubeless set-up...give me a frick'n break.

_Patching conserves natural resources better.
_Tubeless eliminates the need to manufacture, re-cycle, and dispose of tubes. What an earth benefit. 

_If you just replace the tube and happen to have two flats you're screwed because you don't know how to patch, or call your mommy on the cell phone so she can come get you.
_Tubeless tire sealant eliminates most flats. You keep riding. You get home to mommy or wifey or dog sooner. You take care of wifey and she takes care of you. Win/win. Fun/fun. Yet, you are on the side of the road fixing flats, patching tubes whilst someone else may be taking care of the wifey. Sorry, went off tangent there.

_Tubeless tires requires more maintenance;
_Maybe in your mind and experience. Not mine. Quite the opposite. Too many benefits, too much ease of use, too much fun to be had on tubeless to not respond to such a misguided, slanted, and way off the mark poster about road tubeless. Yes, YMMV, your trials and tribulations may be different, and you may prefer to just be patching high pressure tubes with band-aids. I on the other hand will continue to ride tubeless knowing I have and can use a way bigger and longer tool. As in tire lever.

Good luck and keep patching your tubes!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> I think both of you need some quality time with your bikes, away from the keyboard.
> 
> Go ride!🚴



just maybe...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Pros and cons to tubeless tires:

Should You Go Tubeless? | Bicycling

Tubeless tyres - pros and cons -

Tubes versus Tubeless | Bike Carson

Must be the entire internet is full of erroneous and misleading information.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I guess I'm not most people. I choose not to patch unless I have to, and I know very well how to patch tires and tubes. I carry a patch kit with me just in case I hit that more than two failures point (hasn't happened in over 30 years). In my history I very rarely get flats. I cycle through tubes because of age, rarely before they flat.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ibericb said:


> I guess I'm not most people. I choose not to patch unless I have to, and I know very well how to patch tires and tubes. I carry a patch kit with me just in case I hit that more than two failures point (hasn't happened in over 30 years). In my history I very rarely get flats. I cycle through tubes because of age, rarely before they flat.


Damn, where you live must have pristine streets, I wish I lived there! I've never lived anywhere where flats weren't common, the best place so far is where I live now but that's because the thorn situation of other areas I lived in is gone, but I still have all the other crap that causes flats, add on top of that the city rarely runs street sweepers, only in the fall to pick up leaves and in the spring to sweep up all the gravel and other debris left from the winter.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Far from pristine - I see a lot of glass. But it never seems to be much of an issue. I'm not unusual - my buddy who lives directly across the street from me told me he hasn't had a flat in 3 years of road riding around here. Where I live and ride would probably be best described as "industrial rural". I ride mostly along state and county roads that have very wide paved shoulders (like 4-6'), or chip seal county roads. What I do see a lot of along the more heavily trafficked roads are bolts and large fasteners of all kinds, and tools. Thorns - never lived where they are a problem. When I first heard of goatheads I had to go look them up - never heard of them anywhere, and wouldn't know one if I stepped on it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ibericb said:


> Far from pristine - I see a lot of glass. But it never seems to be much of an issue. I'm not unusual - my buddy who lives directly across the street from me told me he hasn't had a flat in 3 years of road riding around here. Where I live and ride would probably be best described as "industrial rural". I ride mostly along state and county roads that have very wide paved shoulders (like 4-6'), or chip seal county roads. What I do see a lot of along the more heavily trafficked roads are bolts and large fasteners of all kinds, and tools. Thorns - never lived where they are a problem. When I first heard of goatheads I had to go look them up - never heard of them anywhere, and wouldn't know one if I stepped on it.


If you ever step on a goathead you'll know what it is and will never forget the experience.

Anyway, I've never gone more then a 3 or 4 months without a flat which is typical around here. I once went for 3 years without a flat in goathead country, how did that happen? I found the secret with Specialized Armadillo All Condition tires, but I no longer use those because their heavy and harsh riding and I no longer need that kind of protection. I now use lighter tires and install a Panaracer FlatAway in my rear tires but not the front so I never get flats on the rear. I don't mind fixing an occasional flat though, but before I found the Armadillos when I lived in the Mojave Desert I got a flat at least twice on every ride, that got annoying but I did get very proficient at fixing flats!


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

I don't know about you guys, but I swear sometimes it seems like there's a dark, menacing "_you're gonna flat no matter what_" force that follows every rider at various times in their cycling life. At random times over the years, no matter what roads I've been on, or state and/or in what country, I'll go through these periods where the flats inexplicably come, no matter what. They're enough to drive you crazy and make you wonder about the universe, lol. And just to drive one even more crazy, they up and disappear. Same bike, same wheels, same tires, same tubes. Yet they are gone. 

You then keep riding, months pass, even almost a year, nothing. No flats. But one day, even after you've been on new tires, you start thinking about your "no-flats" luck and how great it has been, and, well, that's it. You cursed it. It happens suddenly. The dark flatting god swoops his force down out of the ether, once again haunting and mind-f#cking you with flats for no reason. All kinds of flats, pinching, piercing, random tube leakage, etc, etc. Then, just as mysteriously, it all vanishes, like before. You're left mumbling to yourself, that yes, yes, yes!, you do believe in cycling gods, gremlins, goblins and ghosts.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

^^ My flats are kind of regular, no mystery of why no flats in a year or why a flat every month, they just come about once every 3 to 4 months, like someone has clock and punches it and boom I have a flat. I don't worry about it because I know how to patch a tube on the road and do it fairly quickly, plus I carry not only patches but a spare tube just in case I can't find the leak in the field quick enough for my patience that day.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

froze said:


> If you ever step on a goathead you'll know what it is and will never forget the experience.
> 
> Anyway, I've never gone more then a 3 or 4 months without a flat which is typical around here. I once went for 3 years without a flat in goathead country, how did that happen? I found the secret with Specialized Armadillo All Condition tires, but I no longer use those because their heavy and harsh riding and I no longer need that kind of protection. I now use lighter tires and install a Panaracer FlatAway in my rear tires but not the front so I never get flats on the rear. I don't mind fixing an occasional flat though, but before I found the Armadillos when I lived in the Mojave Desert I got a flat at least twice on every ride, that got annoying but I did get very proficient at fixing flats!


Froze, I use Flataway's front and rear and haven't had a flat since I installed them. I actually ran over something (didn't see what it was) and got a cut sidewall to sidewall but it didn't cut through the liner (no flat). Tube was bulging out of the sidewall though. Great investment.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

redondoaveb said:


> Froze, I use Flataway's front and rear and haven't had a flat since I installed them. I actually ran over something (didn't see what it was) and got a cut sidewall to sidewall but it didn't cut through the liner (no flat). Tube was bulging out of the sidewall though. Great investment.


How much ride quality have you traded off for that kind of flat protection?


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

velodog said:


> How much ride quality have you traded off for that kind of flat protection?


I was running 25mm Schwalbe Ones on 25mm wide wheels with low pressure and bike rode like a Cadillac. Problem was, the 25's measure over 27mm's and the rear was rubbing on my seat stays when out of the saddle climbing. I switched to 23's and noticed a little harsher ride but I don't think it was due to the liners. I personally love the liners. Only 25 grams each and they do work.


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

Much better than contemplating patch verses not to patch is to run tubeless with sealant.

Since I made the switch 6K ago I have never had a flat. Maybe that will change someday, but I have a large enough sample to realize that riding tubeless with sealant definitely results in significantly less flat tires.

Isn't that what we are all after?


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Froze,

How related is your "patience that day" to the "weather"? (j/k). Changing winter time flats, especially if it is half rain/half snowing (which Belgium brings in spades during the winter riding season) is getting harder for my old hands. Used to be I could pull a tire and tube off the rim no problems, but as I've gotten older, hands stay cold even in crab claw gloves, and it's tough as it is pulling my frozen fingers out and having to fumble with tire levers. I carry in my back pocket wrapped up in a small mesh bag 2 tubes, patch kit, piece of 6" cut tire in case a bad sideall blowout happens, spoke wrench, money, tire levers, and a few wipe packets. I draw the line at the chain though; I figure if it goes, I'm walking or trying to call someone as I refuse to carry a small chain tool. 

I might look into redondoaveb's suggestion of Flataway's. I didn't know they only weighed 25 grams. For wintertime, it just might be worth it for me to use them. I'm so heavily invested into clincher tires and clincher rims, I won't ever be making the switch to tubeless anytime soon, so I'll never know how tubbys could work for me.


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

BelgianHammer said:


> Froze,
> 
> How related is your "patience that day" to the "weather"? (j/k). Changing winter time flats, especially if it is half rain/half snowing (which Belgium brings in spades during the winter riding season) is getting harder for my old hands. Used to be I could pull a tire and tube off the rim no problems, but as I've gotten older, hands stay cold even in crab claw gloves, and it's tough as it is pulling my frozen fingers out and having to fumble with tire levers. I carry in my back pocket wrapped up in a small mesh bag 2 tubes, patch kit, piece of 6" cut tire in case a bad sideall blowout happens, spoke wrench, money, tire levers, and a few wipe packets. I draw the line at the chain though; I figure if it goes, I'm walking or trying to call someone as I refuse to carry a small chain tool.
> 
> I might look into redondoaveb's suggestion of Flataway's. I didn't know they only weighed 25 grams. For wintertime, it just might be worth it for me to use them. I'm so heavily invested into clincher tires and clincher rims, I won't ever be making the switch to tubeless anytime soon, so I'll never know how tubbys could work for me.


Belgian

Seems like you don't understand the tubeless clinchers. You can use any rim to go tubeless, just instal a strip of stans tape to seal the spoke holes and install a tubeless valve stem, then install sealant (1.5 Oz per tire) and your ready to go. You do have to get tubeless tires but there not to bad cost wise ($50-65 per tire). Since my switch 3 years ago I have 6500 miles and no flats on not very good roads.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jackmen said:


> Much better than contemplating patch verses not to patch is to run tubeless with sealant.
> 
> Since I made the switch 6K ago I have never had a flat. Maybe that will change someday, but I have a large enough sample to realize that riding tubeless with sealant definitely results in significantly less flat tires.
> 
> Isn't that what we are all after?


How can you be sure that the reason you didn't have a flat is because you were riding tubeless?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

BelgianHammer said:


> Froze,
> 
> How related is your "patience that day" to the "weather"? (j/k). Changing winter time flats, especially if it is half rain/half snowing (which Belgium brings in spades during the winter riding season) is getting harder for my old hands. Used to be I could pull a tire and tube off the rim no problems, but as I've gotten older, hands stay cold even in crab claw gloves, and it's tough as it is pulling my frozen fingers out and having to fumble with tire levers. I carry in my back pocket wrapped up in a small mesh bag 2 tubes, patch kit, piece of 6" cut tire in case a bad sideall blowout happens, spoke wrench, money, tire levers, and a few wipe packets. I draw the line at the chain though; I figure if it goes, I'm walking or trying to call someone as I refuse to carry a small chain tool.
> 
> I might look into redondoaveb's suggestion of Flataway's. I didn't know they only weighed 25 grams. For wintertime, it just might be worth it for me to use them. I'm so heavily invested into clincher tires and clincher rims, I won't ever be making the switch to tubeless anytime soon, so I'll never know how tubbys could work for me.


Well, even though my forum handle is Froze I don't like to freeze so I don't ride in the winter, if it's below 38 or so I stay home. However I do ride when it's raining and that's why I carry a spare tube, but most of the time I ride there is no rain and I patch.

I'm surprised you carry all that stuff, most riders don't, I also carry a boot patch for tire damage repair and I even carry a spare tire...this harkens back to the days when I carried spare tubulars so it's just what I do and it's saved my bacon twice and a complete stranger once, all 3 times would have been a daunting walk out of the mountains of southern California on roads not well traveled by cars, and in the strangers case he would have been walking for at least 2 hours in complete darkness.

Panaracer FlatAway liners are the real deal, they're far tougher than Mr Tuffy's. I actually took a tack and tried to penetrate a Mr Tuffy and it went through it fairly easy which corresponds with my experience with them vs goatheads. I then took a Flataway and tried to penetrate that line and could not and bent the tack. Then you have to cut the liners (both Mr Tuffy and Flataway) with scissors and the Mr Tuffy cuts like butter, but I hurt my hands trying to cut the Flataway which eventually I was able but my hands were sore afterwards. I only use the liners in the rear tires because that's were most of the flats occur, since I started using those Flataways I've had no flats in the rear. The only problem with those liners is that they are a one time use liner, so when the tire is shot so is the liner. 

The Flataway is a lot easier to install then a Mr Tuffy to because they have a self sticking backside, you simply peel the paper backing off and stick it to the inside of the tire, no more frustration with the liner moving and wondering after you have it installed and the tire on if the liner is in the right position. Panaracer claims that a tire with a Flataway liner is less susceptible to pinch flats, not sure if that's true because I never ride my bike with low enough air pressure to cause a pinch flat.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

redondoaveb said:


> Froze, I use Flataway's front and rear and haven't had a flat since I installed them. I actually ran over something (didn't see what it was) and got a cut sidewall to sidewall but it didn't cut through the liner (no flat). Tube was bulging out of the sidewall though. Great investment.


I have a silly reason for not using the FlatAway liner in the front...I'm a tightwad and I can't justify spending $15 for a liner to that when I can fix a flat for far less money! I bet you think that weird! LOL The front is no hassle to fix a flat, the rear has all the mechanicals so I don't want to be bothered with that hassle. 

I do rotate tires by this method, when the rear wears out I move the front to the rear and put new tire on the front, but before I do I install the FlatAway liner on the front tire that is being moved to the rear.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

froze said:


> I have a silly reason for not using the FlatAway liner in the front...I'm a tightwad and I can't justify spending $15 for a liner to that when I can fix a flat for far less money! I bet you think that weird! LOL The front is no hassle to fix a flat, the rear has all the mechanicals so I don't want to be bothered with that hassle.
> 
> I do rotate tires by this method, when the rear wears out I move the front to the rear and put new tire on the front, but before I do I install the FlatAway liner on the front tire that is being moved to the rear.


I used to only use the Flataway in the rear until I got a couple of front flats (seemed to never get front flats before ). Actually, I'm the cheap one. I re-use my Flataways. When I pull them out of my old tires, I spray them with a spray on adhesive and stick them right in my new tires.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

redondoaveb said:


> I used to only use the Flataway in the rear until I got a couple of front flats (seemed to never get front flats before ). Actually, I'm the cheap one. I re-use my Flataways. When I pull them out of my old tires, I spray them with a spray on adhesive and stick them right in my new tires.


I have actually was able to peel one off when I destroyed a tire well before it's tread life was up. but I tried to peel it off later when the tire wore out and couldn't get the thing to peel off without shredding and leaving yellow threads on the old tire so I discarded the liner.

On another tire I got a 1/2" or so cut on the tire, so I was able to peel off the liner to look at the cut and found about a 1/8th to 1/4th cut on the inside, and all the object did to the yellow FlatAway line was make a dark spot. So I booted the tire with a Park tire boot and laid the Flat Away liner back down and it stuck for the second time. After I remounted and filled the tire with air I filled the cut from the outside of course with Gorilla Super Glue. I still use that tire with no problems with debris penetrating the cut and flatting the tire.


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## Kendogz161 (Aug 17, 2007)

I say patch'em until the valve breaks off the tube. Hell I even cut my patches in two so that I can use it on two punctures. It just what I'm used to doing since I was a kid.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Kendogz161 said:


> I say patch'em until the valve breaks off the tube. Hell I even cut my patches in two so that I can use it on two punctures. It just what I'm used to doing since I was a kid.


When I was a snot nose kid of age 7 my brother taught me how to patch my tubes, yeah, this was back in the days of vulcanization by FIRE!! No one seemed to mind that fact that kids all over the country and probably the world were lighting their tubes on fire!! Then when I started to use tubulars those things were expensive so again patching was the financially reasonable thing to do even though it was a time consuming process to patch a tubular. So patching became the norm and since tubes and tubulars were expensive it was far cheaper to patch, kids nor adults, just went out and bought new tubes every time they had a flat, those adults today would think people who replace their tubes due to one flat would call them nuts and I tend to agree. We live in a very strange society, we have a lot of disposable money and we live in a throw away society, go to Russia and other eastern bloc countries and see what they do with their tubes and other products that we simply throw away. I also know that most Europeans patch their tubes...except Denmark who now requires bike shop mechanics to wear masks and gloves and install a ventilation system in order to repair a tube which means Denmark LBS's will just replace the tube because the ventilation system cost a minimum of $20,000; this law has angered Danish cyclists and shop owners.


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## Kendogz161 (Aug 17, 2007)

Ha ha, by fire, I did this too. 
Thinking back, I don't know if it helped or was just fun to watch. 


froze said:


> When I was a snot nose kid of age 7 my brother taught me how to patch my tubes, yeah, this was back in the days of vulcanization by FIRE!! No one seemed to mind that fact that kids all over the country and probably the world were lighting their tubes on fire!! Then when I started to use tubulars those things were expensive so again patching was the financially reasonable thing to do even though it was a time consuming process to patch a tubular. So patching became the norm and since tubes and tubulars were expensive it was far cheaper to patch, kids nor adults, just went out and bought new tubes every time they had a flat, those adults today would think people who replace their tubes due to one flat would call them nuts and I tend to agree. We live in a very strange society, we have a lot of disposable money and we live in a throw away society, go to Russia and other eastern bloc countries and see what they do with their tubes and other products that we simply throw away. I also know that most Europeans patch their tubes...except Denmark who now requires bike shop mechanics to wear masks and gloves and install a ventilation system in order to repair a tube which means Denmark LBS's will just replace the tube because the ventilation system cost a minimum of $20,000; this law has angered Danish cyclists and shop owners.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

froze said:


> When I was a snot nose kid of age 7 my brother taught me how to patch my tubes, yeah, this was back in the days of vulcanization by FIRE!! ...


Good old hot patch. Did many of those on auto tires, back in the day. I was trained in the fine art of tire and tube repair when I was ~13, and started working at the major local full-service gas station and repair shop. Tubes were still common then, but disappearing steadily.


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## jackmen (Jul 24, 2007)

velodog said:


> How can you be sure that the reason you didn't have a flat is because you were riding tubeless?


I geuss there is no way you can be totally sure that is the reason, but in the same time period (3 years) and distance (6500 miles) and riding the same roads I had six flat tires.

That sounds like pretty good comparable sample sizes.


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## Scar (Sep 13, 2014)

Years ago I patched every tube but not anymore. I just use a new tube, although flats aren't something we are plagued with a great deal. Tires are better now I guess. When we first started riding after we got married in the 70s, flats happened a lot more often than they have in the last 10 years or so.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Scar said:


> Years ago I patched every tube but not anymore. I just use a new tube, although flats aren't something we are plagued with a great deal. Tires are better now I guess. When we first started riding after we got married in the 70s, flats happened a lot more often than they have in the last 10 years or so.


I do agree that tires are much much better than they were in the 70's when flat protection consisted of 320 TPI of spun cotton, or silk! The cheaper tires had nylon which didn't do much better at protecting against flats. Imagine trying to stop a flat with a T shirt! So the only answer was to make the rubber tread harder which didn't handle as well, so the cheap consumer tire was made of hard rubber with a nylon casing that rode like a rock. I don't recall if they made cheap nylon tubulars, I usually got the higher 320 TPI cotton but I don't recall if I ever bought a tubular with silk casing.

Needless to say we did get quite a few flats, I usually carried two spare tubulars and a patch kit that contained patches, glue, a small exacto knife, waxed thread, needle and a thimble, on occasion I had to sit by the side of the road after flatting both spares and spending 45 minutes to an hour doing the entire process. So when Specialized introduced the Turbo tire, the first real clincher, I jumped for joy and spent the money for a new set of rims and tires so I would never have to be bothered with tubulars ever again. I can't remember what year Specialized came out with the Turbo clincher and I couldn't find it on the internet, but I think I made the switch around 1979.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

froze said:


> usually carried two spare tubulars and a patch kit that contained patches, glue, a small exacto knife, waxed thread, needle and a thimble, on occasion I had to sit by the side of the road after flatting both spares and spending 45 minutes to an hour doing the entire process.


If there was only public use on the ARPA/DARPA thingy-net, and DIY formula and Stans type sealants informationally....

If I could go back in time, I would go give myself some Sans on the mornings or the night before those road side sewing sessions. 
And the dirt and mastic, argh!

My waxed thread was dental floss, Minty! Maybe that was before minty floss, my memory notwithstanding..


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

froze said:


> I usually carried two spare tubulars and a patch kit that contained patches, glue, a small exacto knife, waxed thread, needle and a thimble, on occasion I had to sit by the side of the road after flatting both spares and spending 45 minutes to an hour doing the entire process.


Damn...

Back in the day, did you get eye strain reading by the gas lamp?


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## fixinta (Sep 24, 2014)

Small holes, I'll patch. Pinch flats and larger holes, I cut the tubes up and sell the pieces as "ranger bands" to armchair survivalists. I have doubled my money on a tube. No joke.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

tvad said:


> Damn...
> 
> Back in the day, did you get eye strain reading by the gas lamp?


I was born in a time that all we ever saw was the world in black and white, then these new fangled colored eyeballs came out and suddenly we could see in color.


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## Scar (Sep 13, 2014)

froze said:


> I do agree that tires are much much better than they were in the 70's when flat protection consisted of 320 TPI of spun cotton, or silk! The cheaper tires had nylon which didn't do much better at protecting against flats. Imagine trying to stop a flat with a T shirt! So the only answer was to make the rubber tread harder which didn't handle as well, so the cheap consumer tire was made of hard rubber with a nylon casing that rode like a rock. I don't recall if they made cheap nylon tubulars, I usually got the higher 320 TPI cotton but I don't recall if I ever bought a tubular with silk casing.
> 
> *Needless to say we did get quite a few flats, I usually carried two spare tubulars and a patch kit* that contained patches, glue, a small exacto knife, waxed thread, needle and a thimble, on occasion I had to sit by the side of the road after flatting both spares and spending 45 minutes to an hour doing the entire process. So when Specialized introduced the Turbo tire, the first real clincher, I jumped for joy and spent the money for a new set of rims and tires so I would never have to be bothered with tubulars ever again. I can't remember what year Specialized came out with the Turbo clincher and I couldn't find it on the internet, but I think I made the switch around 1979.


In the mid-70s my wife had a Sekine for a couple of years that had sew-ups (what we called them then) and I also carried a couple of spares with me at all times. Nice bike and nice set of wheels. 

As our finances improved we traded it for something better (full Reynolds 531 double butted frame, WOW) but, we still have a fondness in our memory for that long gone Sekine and the rides we made with it.

Probably a lot of members of this forum have never heard of Sekine.


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## Carpbum (Feb 10, 2015)

I haven't flatted in a couple of years, mainly because I use sealant in my tubes and I mostly use Gatorskins (both clincher and sew-up). That said, if I do get a puncture that the sealant can't handle I'm pretty much stuck with switching to a new tube, because the area around the puncture will be a slimy mess that no glue will stick to.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Scar said:


> In the mid-70s my wife had a Sekine for a couple of years that had sew-ups (what we called them then) and I also carried a couple of spares with me at all times. Nice bike and nice set of wheels.
> 
> As our finances improved we traded it for something better (full Reynolds 531 double butted frame, WOW) but, we still have a fondness in our memory for that long gone Sekine and the rides we made with it.
> 
> Probably a lot of members of this forum have never heard of Sekine.


Even though I lived in California where we saw a lot of Japanese imported bikes Sekine was not popular and very difficult to find, so difficult that none of the bike shops within 50 miles, and probably further, of Santa Barbara never carried them. I think I've only seen one in 40 years! I think it was a low end one but that memory is virtually non existent since the bike didn't make any impression on me at the time. But after doing some internet searching I guess they did make some really nice ones, too bad they didn't get marketed better but the competition was very high back then and with a unknown brand it was doomed for failure. People had a weird perception of bikes and components back then, for example Suntour had a hard time at getting accepted because they cost less than the others so people just figured they were junk. Ishiwata tube sets were very high quality but cost less than the big 2 thus people thought they must be junk. If the bike didn't have an Italian name on it they were considered junk. I remember the race elitists and the wealthy elitists from back then and they would look down on people who didn't ride Italian steeds...at least where I lived and places I traveled to race. But that stigma against Japanese bikes is why so many are no longer around. Fools a lot of people were back then because most of the Japanese frames were superior to the Italian stuff and equal or better than Reynolds.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I just went through a box of 100 Rema patches. What do tubes cost? Around $7.00 each? You do the math. Patching is a lot cheaper in the long run.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

mfdemicco said:


> I just went through a box of 100 Rema patches. What do tubes cost? Around $7.00 each? You do the math. Patching is a lot cheaper in the long run.


I gotta ask, how long did those hundred patches last?

I hope it took you many years to go through that many. Or maybe you're the patch guy for the neighborhood kids.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^^^

maybe he's way ahead in that respect and already charges those kids $2 a patch, which means he can buy 25 new tubes with one box of Rema patches :thumbsup:


Also, I used to have the black dme-sized patches, that were slender and not thick like those thicker black and orange trimmed ones are. What are the names of those? They were/are so slender that after putting them on, they were basically flat with the tube, and not 1 or 2mm off like the Rema's are. Anyone know what I am referring to here????


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I buy tubes for 3.00 each in bulk and have forgoten how to apply a patch. 

I do have a joint compound bucket filled with tubes with one hole in them....

I also do carry a patch kit in case the flat fairy feels the need to visit a few time on one ride. Tip; make sure the patches and glue are good before you find out the hard way... Don't ask how I know this...


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

^^lol

.....good to hear I am not the only one, think I even thought up new, crude names to call myself that day as I stared at what might as well have been Dinosaur-aged amber that was once glue when I first opened it...................


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

velodog said:


> I gotta ask, how long did those hundred patches last?
> 
> I hope it took you many years to go through that many. Or maybe you're the patch guy for the neighborhood kids.


Mmm... 10-20 years I guess. Only my own tubes.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Mmm... 10-20 years I guess. Only my own tubes.


Might work where you live. If you kept them in a SE TX garage, after one summer you wouldn't have 100 patches anymore - just one very thick lump.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

mfdemicco said:


> Mmm... 10-20 years I guess. Only my own tubes.


I gotta say that it's good to hear that it took so long to use them that your guess covers a 10yr span. But, what the heck, you don't like kids?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

ibericb said:


> Might work where you live. If you kept them in a SE TX garage, after one summer you wouldn't have 100 patches anymore - just one very thick lump.


Maybe he has a fridge full of beer out there that has room for those patches. And if the beer is Blatz or some such he wouldn't even notice the rubber smell.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

velodog said:


> Maybe he has a fridge full of beer out there that has room for those patches. And if the beer is Blatz or some such he wouldn't even notice the rubber smell.


Blatz could only be improved by the presence of tire patches.

College memories - a sign that permanently hung in the window of the liquor store that wasn't really off campus ... _Get Blitzed on Blatz_


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

ibericb said:


> College memories - a sign that permanently hung in the window of the liquor store that wasn't really off campus ... _Get Blitzed on Blatz_


Awesome.

Recently purchased a few bottles of my favorite whiskeys at a local liquor store. On the way out, hung on the door facing leaving customers is a sign that reads, "Thank You For Drinking and Smoking". I laughed out loud at that one.

One of our favorite beers in college was Genesee Cream Ale. It was known for producing rancid morning gas that was affectionately called Genesee Screamers.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

tvad said:


> One of our favorite beers in college was Genesee Cream Ale. It was known for producing rancid morning gas that was affectionately called Genesee Screamers.


Genny Cream Ale was a local favorite where I went to grad school. I think I remember it fondly ... maybe. The other was Rolling Rock.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

robt57 said:


> I buy tubes for 3.00 each in bulk and have forgoten how to apply a patch.
> 
> I do have a joint compound bucket filled with tubes with one hole in them....
> 
> I also do carry a patch kit in case the flat fairy feels the need to visit a few time on one ride. Tip; make sure the patches and glue are good before you find out the hard way... Don't ask how I know this...


And this is why I only use Park Glueless patches. Regardless what most of you say about those glueless patches, quality ones like the Park will last the life of the tube if the person properly prepares the tube.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

froze said:


> And this is why I only use Park Glueless patches.


I like those as well, despite the grief some around here give for using them.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

froze said:


> And this is why I only use Park Glueless patches. Regardless what most of you say about those glueless patches, quality ones like the Park will last the life of the tube if the person properly prepares the tube.


How do you prep the tube? Alcohol wipe? Sandpaper?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tvad said:


> I like those as well, despite the grief some around here give for using them.


Me three, there's no denying that they work.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> How do you prep the tube? Alcohol wipe? Sandpaper?


Glue on patches allow for some shortcuts in the prep of the tube, but essentially it's the same thing. I simply use the square of sandpaper provided by Park and buff an area slightly larger than the patch will cover. Then peal off the patch being careful to only touch the smallest part of a corner as not to get the patch dirty (or if my hands got dirty say from the chain then I get a hand wipe (I keep several pouches in my bag) and clean my hands first, peel the patch off and apply the patch with the center of the patch over the hole. Next press the patch between your fingers and thumbs as hard as you can for 30 seconds and repeat on each corner. Then check the patch for any frosty areas, if you see a frosty area repress that area which is usually a corner or an edge of the patch. And your done. Some people clean the tube after sanding with an alcohol wipe but I've haven't had to do that with either glue or glueless patches, it won't hurt to do that but you have to wait to make sure the alcohol is completely dry, I haven't found using alcohol to work any better or worse than without it so I don't bother.

Some people will also say that a glueless patch won't stick on a tube if left uninflated for a while, again I haven't had any problems doing that, all my spare tubes have glueless patches on them and they still stick and hold air if I have to use the tube.

I've even once purposely put a hole in a tube and patched it with a glueless patch and put 200 psi in the tire (I put the wheel in a trash can because I heard that the rim could fail before I put air into it), I left that pressure on the tire for a week or two and the patch held and continued to hold for 5 years after that. 

The only problems I've had with glueless patches is using them on latex tubes, they will hold for about 2 to 3 weeks then let go. 

Speaking of latex tubes, I had better results making my own patches out of an old latex tube by cutting them round about the same size as a Rema patch, and using tubular rim glue by putting a thin layer of the glue on both the patch and the tube and press on. I've found that normal patch glue doesn't work as well as rim glue on latex, it does work but for only a short while.


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