# Contador wins by 1'57'' over Ricco



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

He finished 39 seconds behind winner Marco Pinotti.

Too bad EuroSports didn't show the podium. :mad2:


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## botto (Jul 22, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> He finished 39 seconds behind winner Marco Pinotti.
> 
> Too bad EuroSports didn't show the podium. :mad2:


they haven't stepped up to it yet.

if it means that much to you, try rai - http://www.rai.it/dl/RaiSport/PublishingBlock-b5fc6763-83e8-4d69-a520-5b8f76430476.html


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

No I mean, Eurosports are NOT showing the podium on tv for me. Yeah.
Thanks


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Well, I never would have thought he could take another 2 minutes out of Ricco on a shorter, less demanding course. Sets Contador up nicely for a chance to win all 3 GTs. I gotta imagine he'll romp all over the Vuelta.

How about Brusegin finishing on the podium? Surprises me. I wonder how Cunego would have done this Giro had he decided to ride (though I'm glad he's doing the Tour)


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> Well, I never would have thought he could take another 2 minutes out of Ricco on a shorter, less demanding course. Sets Contador up nicely for a chance to win all 3 GTs. I gotta imagine he'll romp all over the Vuelta.
> 
> How about Brusegin finishing on the podium? Surprises me. I wonder how Cunego would have done this Giro had he decided to ride (though I'm glad he's doing the Tour)


I think Ricco also was not really up to it today so that allowed Contador to take more time than he might have had Ricco went all out. Just what I think though.

The Vuelta would be really 'easy' for him to take especially since he's gunning for it and there's practically no one to challenge him at that too. 

Levi? Hah, Alberto would hardly want to lose his home Tour to Levi anyway but would Kloden go for it too?


Bruseghin was lucky as heck! Pelizotti almost beat him but he hung on by a whisker. Nice one!

How well can Cunego TT anyway? I'm not sure but he'd definitely be amongst the podium I guess.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

uzziefly said:


> I think Ricco also was not really up to it today so that allowed Contador to take more time than he might have had Ricco went all out. Just what I think though.


Pretty much the result that was predicted by the flat part of the first time trial, so the logical conclusion is Contador simply has a better power/aero drag ratio than Ricco. Ricco was mostly better than him uphill so obviously better power/weight ratio goes to Ricco.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Pretty much the result that was predicted by the flat part of the first time trial, so the logical conclusion is Contador simply has a better power/aero drag ratio than Ricco. Ricco was mostly better than him uphill so obviously better power/weight ratio goes to Ricco.


I won't be too sure to say Ricco is better than him uphill as I'd like to see Alberto and Ricco both at 100% fitness and going for it to decide.

That would be really awesome to watch.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

How to prepare for a GT win - acquire hayfever and a dental infection so bad you have to see the dentist at least once during the race, spend the preceding weeks on the beach not on the bike and during the race fall off and fracture your elbow. Oh and if you're a climber don't attack once in the mountains, instead turn into the new Indurain of the TTs. Amazing.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Bianchigirl said:


> How to prepare for a GT win - acquire hayfever and a dental infection so bad you have to see the dentist at least once during the race, spend the preceding weeks on the beach not on the bike and during the race fall off and fracture your elbow. Oh and if you're a climber don't attack once in the mountains, instead turn into the new Indurain of the TTs. Amazing.


Bianchigirl is dead on. Great analysis! :thumbsup:


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## corky (Feb 5, 2005)

So Le Tour will not be won by the current best stage-racer this year....... it is now a 2nd rate race, well this year anyway.

Thoroughly enjoyed the Giro.... great race!


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

corky said:


> So Le Tour will not be won by the current best stage-racer this year....... it is now a 2nd rate race, well this year anyway.
> 
> Thoroughly enjoyed the Giro.... great race!


It'll still be good. Cunego is training specifically for the Tour. Evans might finally take that last step, Valverde has finally finished a Tour and could do something. He's pretty good against TT, above average climber and sprinter as well.

Look at it this way, if Astana had been invited to the Tour, you can bet your bottom dollar that Contador wouldn't have shown up for the Giro. Because of that one decision we could actually have a rider that has won all 3 GTs, including 2 in a year.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Bianchigirl said:


> Amazing.


indeed. one might even say incredible.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> Because of that one decision we could actually have a rider that has won all 3 GTs, including 2 in a year.


Assuming Conti wins the Vuelta, anyone know the last rider to win all three grand tours within a two-year period? (I'm assuming no rider has ever hat-tricked all 3 GTs in one season.)


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Yes, one certainly wouldn't say that it was credible


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

c'mon blackhat, if you're gonna call Contador a doper, just say it straight out.

.


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## Kris Flatlander (Sep 9, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> It'll still be good. Cunego is training specifically for the Tour. Evans might finally take that last step, Valverde has finally finished a Tour and could do something. He's pretty good against TT, above average climber and sprinter as well.


I think Menchov will have an excellent Tour this year now that he has a lot of miles in his legs after the Giro. He wasn't doing that bad at all in the Giro and he was only using it as build-up for the Tour so he'll surely come out swinging in July.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

fornaca68 said:


> Assuming Conti wins the Vuelta, anyone know the last rider to win all three grand tours within a two-year period? (I'm assuming no rider has ever hat-tricked all 3 GTs in one season.)


I don't believe anyone has ever won the Vuelta and Giro in the same year since up until relatively recently they were both in the spring. There are 4 riders who have won all three; Merckx, Hinault and Anquetil and it looks like they all won all 3 in a 2 year period. Only one who did not was Gimondi.

I just looked it up. I'm wrong, Battaglin won both the Giro and Vuelta in 1981.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

To begin to suggest that Contador is of the same calibre as those riders shows what a very poor state professional cycling is in at the moment


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Creakyknees said:


> c'mon blackhat, if you're gonna call Contador a doper, just say it straight out.
> 
> .


Contador is a doper.
<center><img src="https://www.star.le.ac.uk/edu/Root_folder/et.jpg"><br><i>"The Accountant"</i></center>


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Einstruzende said:


> It'll still be good.


From a purely sporting perspective the Giro has been a better race than the Tour just about every year for the last decade. Having the "big" rider doesn't make for a better race. Just think of how uninteresting most of Armstrong's wins were and Basso's other worldly Giro. Parity makes for interesting races, and sometimes that means no "superstar" is better.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> Well, I never would have thought he could take another 2 minutes out of Ricco on a shorter, less demanding course. Sets Contador up nicely for a chance to win all 3 GTs. I gotta imagine he'll romp all over the Vuelta.
> 
> How about Brusegin finishing on the podium? Surprises me. I wonder how Cunego would have done this Giro had he decided to ride (though I'm glad he's doing the Tour)


Will Ricco and other Italians goto the Vuelta to take the vuelta from the spaniards?


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

Bianchigirl said:


> To begin to suggest that Contador is of the same calibre as those riders shows what a very poor state professional cycling is in at the moment


I don't think anyone was suggesting it, just answering the question. 

Talent- and results-wise, Contador is off to a pretty good start. 2 GT's by age 25 is OK in my book. If he can stay with a Bruyneel-led team for the next 6-7 years, who knows? 

As for the state of professional cycling, Anquetil was perhaps the most unrepentant doper of all time. Just saying.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

peter1 said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting it, just answering the question.
> 
> Talent- and results-wise, Contador is off to a pretty good start. 2 GT's by age 25 is OK in my book. If he can stay with a Bruyneel-led team for the next 6-7 years, who knows?
> 
> As for the state of professional cycling, Anquetil was perhaps the most unrepentant doper of all time. Just saying.


Good points. I'd like to damn Contador as much as the next guy, but he is probably still on a level playing field, if you get what I'm saying. Don't forget Merckx got busted for drugs too. Giro '69 I believe.

By time it's all done and over, Contador could very well be up there in the elite as it relates to GT wins.


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## zphogan (Jan 27, 2007)

Bianchigirl said:


> To begin to suggest that Contador is of the same calibre as those riders shows what a very poor state professional cycling is in at the moment


Complete rubbish. Two GT wins at his age is an amazing feat. Yes, you can't compare because Contador is far from finished. However, 10 years from now Contador will go down as one of the greats. Mark it down.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

Two GT wins, Paris Nice, Vuelta al Pais Vasco, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon. Not bad.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Einstruzende said:


> Don't forget Merckx got busted for drugs too. Giro '69 I believe.


Three times.

I would say Contador's accomplishments are only diminished if he is blood doping because I think it is quite likely that technique is not available to everyone.

Anything else is probably on par with what the others are doing.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

zphogan said:


> However, 10 years from now Contador will go down as one of the greats. Mark it down.


I think it will take a few more years to know for sure, for two reasons.

#1 He's not exactly dominated despite non-stellar competition (e.g. Evans, Leipheimer and now new-boy Ricco, Menchov using the race as training, old-man Simoni, Di Luca who has rode many bad Giros and one good one).

#2 It's at least quite likely he was doping given who brought him up thru the ranks and the OP stuff (leaving alone who is riding for now). So it raises the question, is he getting an advantage?

Let's not forget, autologous blood doping is undetectable, stuff like HgH is undetectable, etc.

Any person/team, properly motivated could in all liklihood still run a doping program if they were sufficiently cautious and didn't push the envelope.

I'd put the odds around a third he is the real deal, a third he will continue to get good results but not dominate, and a third he ends up busted for doping.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Move this to the doping forum then.

BTW, Slipstream's star boys VandeVelde and Zabriske have ridden for Riis, Bruyneel, and VdV for Manolo Saiz and he's having the best results of his career now. Clean?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*given the fact that Contador*

and Astana were not invited til the last week, it would seem highly improbable to start a 'program' in time to have served him well at the Giro
If he did, the late start would be much easier to detect, harder to mask and the performance bennies of HgH at that late would be little
lastly, his win wasn't 'extra-terrestrial' , he didn't ride away in the mountains. On the contrary he suffered like a dog and limited his losses mostly out of sheer tenacity and/or grit. Given he hadn't even prepped for this race, the playing field was already tilted against him, all other things (doping) would be equal to again tilted against as he wouldn't have had a 'program' like other GC Honches in March or April. 

Give Contador, Astana some props. Kloden rode sicker than a dog, Levi did his best given his lack of prep. They came in late and unprepared and squeaked out an amazing and courageous win.

lastly in regards to blood doping, it is available to anyone who can afford it. Any GC Honch on a big team could afford it, lastly Contador's H-Critneverwent over the limit so again he was operating in the same zone (minus training and prep) as the competition.
They all come in with high H-Crits, either by doping, altitude chambers or micro-doses of EPO. Claiming some have an advantage when they are all running 45-49 H-Crit levels is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Nice work Alberto, phuck em


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> and Astana were not invited til the last week, it would seem highly improbable to start a 'program' in time to have served him well at the Giro
> If he did, the late start would be much easier to detect, harder to mask and the performance bennies of HgH at that late would be little
> lastly, his win wasn't 'extra-terrestrial' , he didn't ride away in the mountains. On the contrary he suffered like a dog and limited his losses mostly out of sheer tenacity and/or grit. Given he hadn't even prepped for this race, the playing field was already tilted against him, all other things (doping) would be equal to again tilted against as he wouldn't have had a 'program' like other GC Honches in March or April.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:

He had a fractured arm too so it was definitely painful to ride on those days too.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> and Astana were not invited til the last week, it would seem highly improbable to start a 'program' in time to have served him well at the Giro
> If he did, the late start would be much easier to detect, harder to mask and the performance bennies of HgH at that late would be little
> lastly, his win wasn't 'extra-terrestrial' , he didn't ride away in the mountains. On the contrary he suffered like a dog and limited his losses mostly out of sheer tenacity and/or grit. Given he hadn't even prepped for this race, the playing field was already tilted against him, all other things (doping) would be equal to again tilted against as he wouldn't have had a 'program' like other GC Honches in March or April.
> 
> ...


Best post of the thread, IMO.


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## saturncyclist (Aug 8, 2006)

IMO if there is any GC hardman not doping, it's 'Bert. In both the tour and giro he looked human and struggled at times.

Of course this is coming from somebody who likes to think these riders don't dope.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

uzziefly said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> He had a fractured arm too so it was definitely painful to ride on those days too.


Tyler Hamilton and other finished Le TdF with a broken collarbone. I bet collarbones are more painful.


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## Joelio34 (Jul 28, 2007)

I don't understand why everybody complains about doping. It's getting to the point where no matter who wins they will be accused of doping. Astana is a completely different team than last year, they spend the most money on anti-doping policies of any other team. Even if he is doping, then what the hell, i'm a moron. But hey, if a 25-year-old is doping to be on top, then i'm sure everyone is doing it, so we should forget about it and try to go a few posts about GT's without using the word doping. 

My two cents, have a nice day.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

In my opinion, it is refreshing to see a rider like Contador excel. I am impressed with the way he carries himself with class and maturity. In contrast, his younger counterparts like Ricco and Cavendish have a bad case of _diarrhea mouth_, and fail to give proper respect to their fellow riders. For Contador to stay with Astana out of loyalty for the team knowing full well he would risk the opportunity to defend his Tour de France title speaks volume about his class and selflessness. He may lack the charisma of a Cipollini, but he carries himself more like Indurain, which is far better for the sport in the long run.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

bas said:


> Tyler Hamilton and other finished Le TdF with a broken collarbone. I bet collarbones are more painful.


So that makes Hamilton a God? No. All I'm saying is that it hurt for sure and he fought through it. Nothing else to read into really.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> lastly in regards to blood doping, it is available to anyone who can afford it. Any GC Honch on a big team could afford it, lastly Contador's H-Critneverwent over the limit so again he was operating in the same zone (minus training and prep) as the competition.
> They all come in with high H-Crits, either by doping, altitude chambers or micro-doses of EPO. Claiming some have an advantage when they are all running 45-49 H-Crit levels is either ignorant or disingenuous.


Do we know what their hematocrits were?

From what I've seen many riders for several years now have had relatively low hematocrits probably because unrestricted EPO use is too risky, blood doping doesn't have nearly the impact on hct as EPO, use of agents to lower hematocrit before tests, and finally the use of EPO is no longer nearly universal.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Joelio34 said:


> I don't understand why everybody complains about doping. It's getting to the point where no matter who wins they will be accused of doping. Astana is a completely different team than last year, they spend the most money on anti-doping policies of any other team. Even if he is doping, then what the hell, i'm a moron. But hey, if a 25-year-old is doping to be on top, then i'm sure everyone is doing it, so we should forget about it and try to go a few posts about GT's without using the word doping.
> 
> My two cents, have a nice day.


The problem with the internal doping controls is that they are not transparent (although some have claimed they will be made public, Slipstream?, as far as I'm aware none have) and therefore could be nothing more than a smokescreen or "positives" are ignored. Riders are still getting popped routinely in drug tests, yet we only know of one sacking over internal controls and that was Gonchar.

The biopassport which offers the only hope at the moment of detecting the autologous blood doping suffers from similar problems and more. It is not transparent, it is run by the UCI, which is clearly problematic. Although I think Gripper was the turning point at the UCI on fighting doping, you can't have the head of a governing body "guaranteeing" someone is clean because you're back to square-one on the whole cover-up issue that led to the creation of WADA in the first place. And lastly, it is unlikely to stand up in court given the Di Luca decision. Astorloa could very will be the test case.

IOW, until a significant detriment to autologous blood doping is available it only makes sense to be skeptical.


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## Patti (May 20, 2008)

corky said:


> So Le Tour will not be won by the current best stage-racer this year....... it is now a 2nd rate race, well this year anyway.


My thoughts exactly. 

Cyclingfans.com posted an interesting editorial called "Isolated" today about Contador's win, the TDF, ASO, etc.



atpjunkie said:


> and Astana were not invited til the last week, it would seem highly improbable to start a 'program' in time to have served him well at the Giro
> If he did, the late start would be much easier to detect, harder to mask and the performance bennies of HgH at that late would be little
> lastly, his win wasn't 'extra-terrestrial' , he didn't ride away in the mountains. On the contrary he suffered like a dog and limited his losses mostly out of sheer tenacity and/or grit. Given he hadn't even prepped for this race, the playing field was already tilted against him, all other things (doping) would be equal to again tilted against as he wouldn't have had a 'program' like other GC Honches in March or April.
> 
> Give Contador, Astana some props. Kloden rode sicker than a dog, Levi did his best given his lack of prep. They came in late and unprepared and squeaked out an amazing and courageous win.


Well said!


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Great Giro! No Superman, close battles till the end, Ricco's stupid remarks made me laugh - I really enjoyed it. I doubt the top guys are 100% clean, but I doubt they are doped to the gills. Contator and Astana showed some real moxie - bravo!


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## AHAMAMA (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi how are yas all. welcome to my first post, and i have to say, all hail for mr clean(Evans) to win the 2008 tdf. 
Obviously i am an aussie and it would be grat to see us finally win one. I have for many years stayed up late at night to watch this beautiful event and over the last say 8 or so years it has been an absolute joke to watch riders climbing hills and accelerating (contador), or comeback one day to win a stage after popping the day before (landis + vinny) we all know they do not just drink redbull, and i hate to say say it but what is with seven in a row? anyhow nuff said, this thread about contador, all i can say is that where there is smoke ....Astana cheats, liberty seguros cheats.


As an aussie to sit there and watch a known associate of drug teams win the tdf and beat my fellow countryman is a sad thing, 



just another thing i love lemond hate armstrong


Aussie! ausie! aussie!


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## EndoMadness (Jul 14, 2005)

Don't they speak English in Australia? Chapeau to Conti !!! No Chapeau for wheel sucker (evans)......TIC.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

AHAMAMA said:


> Hi how are yas all. welcome to my first post, and i have to say, all hail for mr clean(Evans) to win the 2008 tdf.
> Obviously i am an aussie and it would be grat to see us finally win one. I have for many years stayed up late at night to watch this beautiful event and over the last say 8 or so years it has been an absolute joke to watch riders climbing hills and accelerating (contador), or comeback one day to win a stage after popping the day before (landis + vinny) we all know they do not just drink redbull, and i hate to say say it but what is with seven in a row? anyhow nuff said, this thread about contador, all i can say is that where there is smoke ....Astana cheats, liberty seguros cheats.
> 
> 
> ...


What? Astana cheats? Astana has a clean doping control program just like Slipstream, CSC and High Road so this is just baseless accusation uttered mindlessly.

Yeah, if everyone rode like Evans, then they're clean? Sheesh man.

If you want to blast Astana, you gotta at least say it's not this year. They have and are trying to change in more ways than one and so far, it's been good.

Why can't you accept that for goodness sake, despite how good pro riders/pro sportsmen are, there are people in their field just that much better at certain aspects? There are many good soccer players but some are just that much more powerful when striking a ball. Same goes for tennis. Oh and by the way, Ricco also rides like Contador so.... Cheating there? 



It's an absolute joke to watch Evans ride (suck) and stick behind a guy like a thumbtack to a tail and then pull over to win. Real classy there but hey, it's bike racing right so no one needs to be classy. Oh wait, then why not just dope too?

So why is Evans clean? Last I checked, Lotto does NOT have such a comprehensive anti doping program like Astana does.


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## Kris Flatlander (Sep 9, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> The problem with the internal doping controls is that they are not transparent (although some have claimed they will be made public, Slipstream?, as far as I'm aware none have) and therefore could be nothing more than a smokescreen or "positives" are ignored. Riders are still getting popped routinely in drug tests, yet we only know of one sacking over internal controls and that was Gonchar.


The "public" part of Slipstreams, as I understand, is literally an open door policy. I forget where I read the article but they actually conduct the in-team doping controls in the hotel with an open room where the press etc. can go into.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Kris Flatlander said:


> The "public" part of Slipstreams, as I understand, is literally an open door policy. I forget where I read the article but they actually conduct the in-team doping controls in the hotel with an open room where the press etc. can go into.


Well that seems rather silly, the data is what is important not watching blood being drawn.


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## bikerjones (Mar 25, 2006)

I am pretty sure I read something like that too, (Velonews maybe?) where the Slipstream riders were saying that they have had to get comfortable with having to pee in cups in front of other people.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

bikerjones said:


> I am pretty sure I read something like that too, (Velonews maybe?) where the Slipstream riders were saying that they have had to get comfortable with having to pee in cups in front of other people.


I don't think it's only Slipstream from what I remembered.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

uzziefly said:


> What? Astana cheats? Astana has a clean doping control program just like Slipstream, CSC and High Road so this is just baseless accusation uttered mindlessly.


festana's using dr. damsgaard but I've yet to see any mention of it being the <i>same</i> as CSC. he could be giving them the Stapleton "look them in the eye" test ala basso for all I know. even if it were, the last published testing results are over a year old. their system is anything but open. don't let that stop you from believing they're "clean" though.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well that seems rather silly, the data is what is important not watching blood being drawn.


If you want the data, just ask for it.


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## AHAMAMA (Jun 2, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> What? Astana cheats? Astana has a clean doping control program just like Slipstream, CSC and High Road so this is just baseless accusation uttered mindlessly.
> 
> Yeah, if everyone rode like Evans, then they're clean? Sheesh man.
> 
> ...


you know what is funny? You and your ignorance, :mad2: cycling is a team sport remember, and in the astana's case they have been caught twice now, And when contador was with seguros WHAT DID THEY GET BUSTED FOR, so why do you think it has changed, and as for wheel suck yeah right going up a mountain @ 20kph is going to aid his aero dynamics. I bet you have 50mm carbon wheel on your bike but forget to realise that they do not start to work untill about 40 kph, but at least you look good.
now in the last time trial of the tour do you remember that contador who is a climber not a tt'ist held off evans who at the time was one of the worlds best WTF is with that

not mindless acusations just facts that that he escaped being dropped from the tour so it would not be a shambles

does this ring any bells 

"German authorities said Tuesday they have received documents from doping expert Werner Franke which he claims show Tour de France winner Alberto Contador was involved in doping.

Franke said he has documents from last year's Operation Puerto:mad2: :mad2: doping investigation in Spain which show that Contador, a Spaniard who won the doping-marred Tour on Sunday, had taken HMG-Lepori as a testosterone booster and an asthma product called TGN. 

"We can confirm we have received the documents, and they will be incorporated into procedures of the district attorney's office," Christian Brockert, spokesman for Germany's Federal Criminal Police Office, told the Associated Press.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

AHAMAMA said:


> you know what is funny? You and your ignorance, :mad2: cycling is a team sport remember, and in the astana's case they have been caught twice now, And when contador was with seguros WHAT DID THEY GET BUSTED FOR, so why do you think it has changed, and as for wheel suck yeah right going up a mountain @ 20kph is going to aid his aero dynamics. I bet you have 50mm carbon wheel on your bike but forget to realise that they do not start to work untill about 40 kph, but at least you look good.
> now in the last time trial of the tour do you remember that contador who is a climber not a tt'ist held off evans who at the time was one of the worlds best WTF is with that
> 
> not mindless acusations just facts that that he escaped being dropped from the tour so it would not be a shambles
> ...


Right but you fail to realize Astana are changing their ways and making amends. Same name, different management etc. Astana have changed their management system, changed their anti doping system and all and you don't consider this change? They are a team in the same name only in effect. At least give them credit for trying and doing well so far. 

If that counts for nothing too, then I have no idea what counts for something. Astana are making efforts and they, along with Slipstream and CSC are all conducting their anti doping program where other teams do not do so to such an extent. 

Was Contador proven guilty? No and as long as he's not, you or anyone else have nothing on him yet at least. Also, why ain't Valverde mentioned then since he has had links as well? 

What wheels I use is purely my sole business and unless you have a spy camera in my home, I don't think you'd know or would win a bet anyway. 

Only reason you defend Cadel is coz of where he's from. Why ain't he doping? I mean, he finished second at the tour, won a race or so this year, rode well all year last year and won the Pro Tour rankings, surely he must dope too then right coz all winners dope don't they?  And seriously, Cadel wheel sucks a lot of times unless you probably fail to notice this at all. Yeah it won't help going up a mountain, so I wonder why leaders have their team members pull on a climb for them and they sit in behind them huh since aero seems to be the only benefit possible in cycling. 

Also, Cadel complains a lot when he doesn't win and that's akin to what Ricco did at this Giro. This hardly makes any of them favorite people of other riders. 

High road? Clean too? David Millar? Clean again too right? So are they cheating still?


Until Contador is proven guilty or not, I won't say if he is or isn't guilty. I bet if he was, they'd fire him or Kloden or whomever to keep their new image up. Let them decide if he is clean or not with circumstantial evidence beyond doubt and not based on what you or others say or think because everyone can say that everyone dopes.

Millar says most cyclists are clean contrary to popular belief. Do you believe this? It probably doesn't matter anyway now right.


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## AHAMAMA (Jun 2, 2008)

EndoMadness said:


> Don't they speak English in Australia? Chapeau to Conti !!! No Chapeau for wheel sucker (evans)......TIC.




Pfft as if,
STFU!!!!111, o how i lmfao @ ignorance


hats??? soundslike some one is an a#$hat

woh hey i get it, Sarcasm,,, thats the first level of wit, whats the next one, oh let me tell you, double entendre?

theres an english lesson for ya :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

AHAMAMA said:


> Pfft as if,
> STFU!!!!111, o how i lmfao @ ignorance
> 
> 
> ...


If Contador is a doper, and Cadel hangs with the doper on the road, Cadel must be a doper as well. 

Cadel is a whiny ass just like Ricco. The only difference is Ricco is so offensive that he's entertaining, while Evans reminds me of Judge Doom from Roger Rabbit "with that high squeaky voice." Enough with the nationalism and cutting down a rider who has no guilt associated with him yet. When he fails a test and gets yanked from a tour, then you have a leg to stand on.


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## Aquamarinos (Mar 27, 2008)

Great Giro!!!
I enjoyed it more than any other stage race for years!

We might be witnessing a new Woods/Federer/Schumacher in cycling, Contador has all the goods to become one of the big ones, very impressive victory for him!!

I'm sick of the dope talk, put in the forum where it belongs. Thx.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Aquamarinos said:


> We might be witnessing a new Woods/Federer/Schumacher in cycling, Contador has all the goods to become one of the big ones, very impressive victory for him!!


Except I don't believe he's shown any one-day talent, so it's hard to think of him as dominating the sport. He might be the next Armstrong, just like Boonen appears to be the next Museeuw.

Valverde or Cunego looked like they could have been very complete riders at one point, but they neither have really progressed much if at all.

Until there is another Hinault, I don't think it's accurate to compare a cyclist to somebody like Schumacher.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Valverde or Cunego looked like they could have been very complete riders at one point, but they neither have really progressed much if at all.


I'm pinning my hopes on Cunego - if he has a good Tour/or wins another grand tour in the next few years, then his palmares will by modern standards look very good. How many other riders have won spring classics (Amstel), a Grand Tour (the Giro), and autumn classics (Lombardy x2)? Two of those wins have come in the past year as well, so it seems that he's recovered from the low of 2005 now.

Off the top of my head the only other riders that I can think of that have won both classics and grand tours in the last ten years are Vinokourov (ahem) and Di Luca. Its difficult to imagine Valverde not joining this list as well at some point - I can't imagine he's planning on gifting the Vuelta to Contador any time soon.


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## Aquamarinos (Mar 27, 2008)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Except I don't believe he's shown any one-day talent, so it's hard to think of him as dominating the sport. He might be the next Armstrong, just like Boonen appears to be the next Museeuw.
> 
> Valverde or Cunego looked like they could have been very complete riders at one point, but they neither have really progressed much if at all.
> 
> Until there is another Hinault, I don't think it's accurate to compare a cyclist to somebody like Schumacher.


well it's obvious that I'm talking about a stage race rider here, not a one day rider....
Contador will never win a classic and Boonen will never win a GT, but for me, the GT riders tops the classics riders.... IMO that is of course. 
If Contador keeps winning the way he has done so far, he surely has the chance to become one of the greats in cycling.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

Aquamarinos said:


> well it's obvious that I'm talking about a stage race rider here, not a one day rider....
> Contador will never win a classic and Boonen will never win a GT, but for me, the GT riders tops the classics riders.... IMO that is of course.
> If Contador keeps winning the way he has done so far, he surely has the chance to become one of the greats in cycling.


Yes, but the equivalent of Woods/Federer/Schumacher in cycling is Merckx/Hinault/Coppi, all of whom won a lot of grand tours _and_ a lot of one day races. So, by default, to call Contador a 'great' he has to win grand tours and one day classics, that is just the way it is. And yes, in this day and age, where riders specialize a lot more, its increasingly unlikely that we'll ever see it happening again - thats why I highlighted Cunego's achievements in the post above.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Aquamarinos said:


> If Contador keeps winning the way he has done so far, he surely has the chance to become one of the greats in cycling.


Sure but not a Hinault (i.e. Schumacher-esque). Unlike Boonen where it would seem inconceivable he could become a GT winner, Contador could conceivably win classics except for Roubaix and probably Flanders. However, I've not seen anything to indicate he really has the grit, ability to read a race, and explosiveness that is required to become a big winner in those sort of races.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Sure but not a Hinault (i.e. Schumacher-esque). Unlike Boonen where it would seem inconceivable he could become a GT winner, Contador could conceivably win classics except for Roubaix and probably Flanders. However, I've not seen anything to indicate he really has the grit, ability to read a race, and explosiveness that is required to become a big winner in those sort of races.


Contador is explosive alright on climbs, but he sure can't hold a really fast speed/sprint so yeah.

He could win hilly classics if he really tried for it I guess but P-R and Flanders are naaahhhhhhssss... I mean... Yeah.


He could be an excellent GT rider with multiple GT wins (not just TdF) over time and the middle length stage races like Paris-Nice, Dauphine, Vuelta Cyclista and a few more perhaps.

But should he do this, it'd be really fantastic nonetheless and he'd be the premier stage racer for sure with one or 2 classics win maybe, or not. 

As for Valverde, he could win the Vuelta perhaps and also, he has the ability to win some classics as he has shown. The man can also hold a pretty decent sprint too.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Except I don't believe he's shown any one-day talent, so it's hard to think of him as dominating the sport. He might be the next Armstrong, just like Boonen appears to be the next Museeuw.
> 
> Valverde or Cunego looked like they could have been very complete riders at one point, but they neither have really progressed much if at all.
> 
> Until there is another Hinault, I don't think it's accurate to compare a cyclist to somebody like Schumacher.


I don't think you can compare a cyclist to Schumacher per say. Wait, we are talking Michael Schumacher right?

If so, this is why - In F1, there are no real different types of races where you can't be aggressive and take chances so to speak but in Grand Tours, winners peak on climbing stages and stay safe in sprints. For F1, it's always a fight, every race, all the time. Sure, there are different circuits demanding different things, but.... I dunno, just my opinion.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

uzziefly said:


> Contador is explosive alright on climbs, but he sure can't hold a really fast speed/sprint so yeah.


But that is a different kind of explosiveness than the kind typically exhibited by good classics riders.


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## ziggurat22 (Jul 13, 2005)

IMO, Valverde is probably the most complete rider in this discussion, although Cunego actually has a GT win under his belt along with the two Lombardia wins and the Amstel win. Contador will be a great GT champion in the years to come, but I don't think he is a classics or a Worlds kind of a rider.

I regard Valverde as a major disappointment. He has all the tools but his results are lacking for a rider of his caliber. I think he should have at least a Vuelta and one WC under his belt by now.

I don't think we'll see any rider, ever, who'll be able to win all of the classics/monuments.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

ziggurat22 said:


> I regard Valverde as a major disappointment.
> 
> I don't think we'll see any rider, ever, who'll be able to win all of the classics/monuments.


Don't be so hard on Piti, OP almost certainly affected his mojo 

Ever is a long time, when there has been riders in the past that could do it. If you take the two extremes as a Grand Tour and Paris-Roubaix, "recently" Hinault won them both and Lemond almost certainly could of since he finished 4th in Roubaix. Lemond also almost won Lombardy and LBL and he did win a road world championships.

Who knows what Armstrong could have done if he would have had any serious ambitions beyond the TdF once he recovered from cancer? He was big enough that even something like Roubaix should not have been outside of his potential if he was tough enough for it. He would have had trouble racking up classic victories because he didn't have much of a sprint, but still he would have almost certainly taken some if he would have raced many of them with real intent.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Don't be so hard on Piti, OP almost certainly affected his mojo
> 
> Ever is a long time, when there has been riders in the past that could do it. If you take the two extremes as a Grand Tour and Paris-Roubaix, "recently" Hinault won them both and Lemond almost certainly could of since he finished 4th in Roubaix. Lemond also almost won Lombardy and LBL and he did win a road world championships.
> 
> Who knows what Armstrong could have done if he would have had any serious ambitions beyond the TdF once he recovered from cancer? He was big enough that even something like Roubaix should not have been outside of his potential if he was tough enough for it. He would have had trouble racking up classic victories because he didn't have much of a sprint, but still he would have almost certainly taken some if he would have raced many of them with real intent.


After all, he was a one day rider for sometime prior to cancer.

He could definitely have won some classics without any doubt and a WC too during his TdF reigns.


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