# Questions re: Bikedirect bikes



## Tucker44 (Apr 6, 2010)

Hi,
2 questions:
I'm currently looking to purchase either a Moto Vent Noir or Winsor Knight. However I'm concerned about the geometry/fit. I fit well on a 61" Specialized Roubiax very well....can anyone comment on how a 62" Vent Noir or Knight would feel in comparision?

Also, my wife is looking for a bike as well. She went to our LBS and got fit - 3 bikes work perfectly for her: Specialized Amira, Ruby and Trek Madone. Can anyone comment on what bike on Bikesdirect would be most similar to these? Thanks very much.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

It's too bad your LBS is good enough to fit your wife but not good enough to buy from. 
As a counterpoint my wife went to our LBS for fitting and ended up buying a Trek 2200 wsd from them.


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## Tucker44 (Apr 6, 2010)

covenant said:


> It's too bad your LBS is good enough to fit your wife but not good enough to buy from.
> As a counterpoint my wife went to our LBS for fitting and ended up buying a Trek 2200 wsd from them.


not everyone has $2500 for a bike. Thanks for the help.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Tucker44 said:


> not everyone has $2500 for a bike. Thanks for the help.


Neither do I, we paid half that price. 

Specialized does carry less expensive models with similar geometry. Naturally the LBS will try steer you toward the high end stuff.

Your welcome :thumbsup:


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## fun2none (Mar 16, 2010)

The question that I believe you are asking is which BD models have similar geometry, or fit, to the Specialized Amira, Ruby and Trek Madone. The Amira a and Ruby are the womens specific geometries. It is possible to find the BD model that is very close to the geometries of these models. However, in order to match the fit & feel of the LBS bikes you might need another stem, saddle, and perhaps bars.

All I can suggest is that you make a spreadsheet which summarizes the geometries of each bike. That way you will have an easy method to compare. I would also suggest that you take a tape measure to the LBS next time you get fitted. Take as many measurements, like seat heat, top tube length, bar to seat drop and reach, etc. This data will help setup the new BD bike and determine if any parts need to be swapped out.

BD also has a satisfaction money back guarantee where you can return the bike within 30days if you pay return shipping.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Why not just save time and ask the LBS to go to the BD site for you and select the bike that most closely matches the one in their store? Make sure to tell them about all the other things you plan to buy cheaper online, then perhaps pee in the corner of the shop before you go.


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## real schwinns only (Dec 29, 2008)

Greg lemonds complete book of cycling has a quite nice chapter on cycle fit should be quite helpfull, also quite helpfull for cycle fit one should look at former master cycle frame builder Dave Moulton's article on proper sizing it should be of help. just a bit of things ive learned along the way Proper saddle height is quite important With your bare feet about six inches apart, hold a postcart or notelet straight & firmly into your groin as if it was ones saddle and and using a pencil to make a mark on the wall then one measures to the floor. Have a friend help you so you are exact. Now multiply this number by 1.09 and then use the result to set the saddle height. Remember the measurement is directly along the seat tube of the bicycle and measured from the centre of the axel to the top of a level saddle when aligned with ones seat tube.A proper level saddle can be obtained by using a level " a tool for measuring how flat something is such as ones bookshelf ".Quite hope this will help find your proper size, because ones proper cycle frame fit should be of the utmost importance,no what any nitwits try to tell you ,no not one or two sizes or three fit all "small, med ,large sizing bloody usually means you will end up with a improper bicycle fit. Since its your lollies you will be spending, proper fit is quite important it will contribute to ones years of riding enjoyment. This is a proper sizing chart for road cycle frame sizing Height, Inseam Length, Bike Frame Size 
4'10" - 5'1" 25.5” - 27” 46 - 48 cm 
5'0" - 5'3" 26.5" - 28" 48 - 50 cm 
5'2" - 5'5" 27.5" - 29" 50 - 52 cm 
5'4" - 5'7" 28.5" - 30" 52 - 54 cm 
5'6" - 5'9" 29.5" - 31" 54 - 56 cm 
5'8" - 5'11" 30.5" - 32" 56 - 58 cm 
5'10" - 6'1" 31.5" - 33" 58 - 60 cm 
6'0" - 6'3" 32.5" - 34" 60 - 62 cm 
6'2" - 6'5" 34.5" - 36" 62 - 64 cm 
Notice how the frames on this chart have proper sizes not some bloody willy nilly sizing such as small, med large, and x large rubbish, now ones cycling shoes don't came in four sizes nor should ones bicycle. Bodys come in qute differnt sizes and require proper sizing.Manufactures that offer 4 sizes is for the bloody soul purpose of profit only and could care less about ones fit. for more on fitting the rest of you and your cycle read greg and daves information on cycle fit . Its Quite nice, hope this will be of use in finding your proper sizing
"Quote" a lie gets half way around the world before the truth gets a chance to get its trousers on "Sir Winston Churchill"


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## chas0039 (Jun 26, 2007)

Come on guys, relax. Some of use support our LBS and yet buy mail order for very good reasons. My Ridley came from the LBS because they did a very good job matching me to something I didn't know that I wanted. Yet, when I wanted steel they couldn't help, even though they agree with me that carbon is waaaaay over hyped, so I went to Richard Schwinn and Waterford. The LBS was more than happy to press the King headset and cut the steering tube.

This year they said that they were not the place for titanium so I went to BikesDirect. I give the LBS shop all the business I can and I will only send people there, never to the web. But both they and I both know that for most of my business, they are not the right place.

Every Spring, they get a couple of dozen home made cookies and a 12 pack of beer.

And on the subject of fit, make sure you really look at all the measurements as the bike "size" can vary drastically from standard to semi compact and compact. Additionally, individual manufacturers vary from others. My 54cm Ridley has the same fit as my 58cm Trek and my 60cm Waterford. For my money, the top tube and BB to top of seat post are really critical.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

chas0039 said:


> Come on guys, relax. Some of use support our LBS and yet buy mail order for very good reasons. My Ridley came from the LBS because they did a very good job matching me to something I didn't know that I wanted. Yet, when I wanted steel they couldn't help, even though they agree with me that carbon is waaaaay over hyped, so I went to Richard Schwinn and Waterford. The LBS was more than happy to press the King headset and cut the steering tube..


I have no problem with that kind of situation. I have a problem with someone who takes the time of LBS personnel nailing down their correct fit and then takes their money and sends it to Asiancommoditybike.com. Or test fits shoes and clothes at the LBS and then goes online to actually buy the product at NashProKit.com. 

Don't get me wrong I buy alot of stuff online, and prefer to do so most of the time. (I've bought bikes online from Bikesdirect, Leader and GVH. But I've bought two Treks and a Schwinn locally). But if your going to avail yourself of the local services you should compensate the hard working folks who perform them.

/Rant off

Now go ride what ya got :thumbsup:


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## Tucker44 (Apr 6, 2010)

covenant said:


> I have no problem with that kind of situation. I have a problem with someone who takes the time of LBS personnel nailing down their correct fit and then takes their money and sends it to Asiancommoditybike.com. Or test fits shoes and clothes at the LBS and then goes online to actually buy the product at NashProKit.com.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I buy alot of stuff online, and prefer to do so most of the time. (I've bought bikes online from Bikesdirect, Leader and GVH. But I've bought two Treks and a Schwinn locally). But if your going to avail yourself of the local services you should compensate the hard working folks who perform them.
> 
> ...


When I went into the LBS last fall, my original intent was not to just get fit then run off to the internet to find a deal. The bikes they were showing me were all too expensive for me, so I'm opening myself up to other options. I am very supportive of my LBS with my mtn. bike purchases, but I'm just getting into road.


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## Tucker44 (Apr 6, 2010)

Whatever...it's a free market and if the bike store can't be more competitive, then that's their problem....plus the girl at Bikesdirect offered me a blow job if I bought a Noir, so I did


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

If your LBS is only showing you expensive bikes, maybe you should tell them your budget is about half of that?

That said, the Vent Noir is a bike I have recommended a few times. It's made by Kinesis. Raleigh is made by Kinesis. Ya follow me?

The Vent Noir looks to me like a 3 or 4 year old Raleigh road bike (with different components). Find one of those and see how it fits.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Tucker44 said:


> Whatever...it's a free market and if the bike store can't be more competitive, then that's their problem....plus the girl at Bikesdirect offered me a blow job if I bought a Noir, so I did


Mike offered you a blow job?

That's an interesting new business strategy he hasn't mentioned on here yet....


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

chas0039 said:


> Come on guys, relax. Some of use support our LBS and yet buy mail order for very good reasons. My Ridley came from the LBS because they did a very good job matching me to something I didn't know that I wanted. Yet, when I wanted steel they couldn't help, even though they agree with me that carbon is waaaaay over hyped, so I went to Richard Schwinn and Waterford. The LBS was more than happy to press the King headset and cut the steering tube.
> 
> This year they said that they were not the place for titanium so I went to BikesDirect. I give the LBS shop all the business I can and I will only send people there, never to the web. But both they and I both know that for most of my business, they are not the right place.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with shopping online or getting the most for your money. But unless fun2none was kidding, there is something incredibly disingenuous about taking a tape measure into a bike store to measure geometry for a bike you're planning to buy online. Contact the online store and ask them about the geometry of their bikes compared to other brands if that's the way you want to go.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

chas0039 said:


> Come on guys, relax. Some of use support our LBS and yet buy mail order for very good reasons. My Ridley came from the LBS because they did a very good job matching me to something I didn't know that I wanted. Yet, when I wanted steel they couldn't help, even though they agree with me that carbon is waaaaay over hyped, so I went to Richard Schwinn and Waterford. The LBS was more than happy to press the King headset and cut the steering tube.
> 
> This year they said that they were not the place for titanium so I went to BikesDirect. I give the LBS shop all the business I can and I will only send people there, never to the web. But both they and I both know that for most of my business, they are not the right place.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with shopping online or getting the most for your money. But unless fun2none was kidding, there is something incredibly disingenuous about taking a tape measure into a bike store to measure geometry for a bike you're planning to buy online. Contact the online store and ask them about the geometry of their bikes compared to other brands if that's the way you want to go.


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## fun2none (Mar 16, 2010)

Opus51569 said:


> I have no problem with shopping online or getting the most for your money. But unless fun2none was kidding, there is something incredibly disingenuous about taking a tape measure into a bike store to measure geometry for a bike you're planning to buy online. Contact the online store and ask them about the geometry of their bikes compared to other brands if that's the way you want to go.


I was not jesting in the least bit. On many occasions I have asked the LBS for a tape measure to take a measurement(s). While helping my brother select a bike, I brought a tape measure to make sure we had consistent reference points when trying different bikes. The tape measure is just an instrument to collect data in order to make a better decision. What you do with that information is up to you.

Tucker44 is doing his/her due diligence.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Tucker44 said:


> When I went into the LBS last fall, my original intent was not to just get fit then run off to the internet to find a deal. The bikes they were showing me were all too expensive for me, so I'm opening myself up to other options. I am very supportive of my LBS with my mtn. bike purchases, but I'm just getting into road.


To echo what PlatyPius said, If they can stock the expensive models they can order you an less expensive model. 

And fair enough about your LBS support. It's one of my pet peeves and I get all preachy and ****. :thumbsup:


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Humbug! Notice how someone 6' would ride a 60 or 62 ?!? Maybe an early 80s bike....



real schwinns only said:


> Greg lemonds complete book of cycling has a quite nice chapter on cycle fit should be quite helpfull, also quite helpfull for cycle fit one should look at former master cycle frame builder Dave Moulton's article on proper sizing it should be of help. just a bit of things ive learned along the way Proper saddle height is quite important With your bare feet about six inches apart, hold a postcart or notelet straight & firmly into your groin as if it was ones saddle and and using a pencil to make a mark on the wall then one measures to the floor. Have a friend help you so you are exact. Now multiply this number by 1.09 and then use the result to set the saddle height. Remember the measurement is directly along the seat tube of the bicycle and measured from the centre of the axel to the top of a level saddle when aligned with ones seat tube.A proper level saddle can be obtained by using a level " a tool for measuring how flat something is such as ones bookshelf ".Quite hope this will help find your proper size, because ones proper cycle frame fit should be of the utmost importance,no what any nitwits try to tell you ,no not one or two sizes or three fit all "small, med ,large sizing bloody usually means you will end up with a improper bicycle fit. Since its your lollies you will be spending, proper fit is quite important it will contribute to ones years of riding enjoyment. This is a proper sizing chart for road cycle frame sizing Height, Inseam Length, Bike Frame Size
> 4'10" - 5'1" 25.5” - 27” 46 - 48 cm
> 5'0" - 5'3" 26.5" - 28" 48 - 50 cm
> 5'2" - 5'5" 27.5" - 29" 50 - 52 cm
> ...


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Opus51569 said:


> Why not just save time and ask the LBS to go to the BD site for you and select the bike that most closely matches the one in their store? Make sure to tell them about all the other things you plan to buy cheaper online, then perhaps pee in the corner of the shop before you go.


ahhhhhhhhh yet another non helpful assclown


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Tucker44 said:


> Hi,
> 2 questions:
> I'm currently looking to purchase either a Moto Vent Noir or Winsor Knight. However I'm concerned about the geometry/fit. I fit well on a 61" Specialized Roubiax very well....can anyone comment on how a 62" Vent Noir or Knight would feel in comparision?
> 
> Also, my wife is looking for a bike as well. She went to our LBS and got fit - 3 bikes work perfectly for her: Specialized Amira, Ruby and Trek Madone. Can anyone comment on what bike on Bikesdirect would be most similar to these? Thanks very much.



Thanks for looking at our bikes; for fit I have found Chris at [email protected] does a great job fitting customers.

or you can PM me with the basic info on your self and your wife - use of bikes and budget - I can make suggestions on bikes and sizes.

As you probably can guess; thousands of people buy bikes online with zero issues including fit

Thanks again for checking us out

Mike


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## gabeiac (Dec 1, 2009)

Opus51569 said:


> Why not just save time and ask the LBS to go to the BD site for you and select the bike that most closely matches the one in their store? Make sure to tell them about all the other things you plan to buy cheaper online, then perhaps pee in the corner of the shop before you go.


I agreed with this sentiment in one form or another until about a week ago. I am all about support local etc. The problem is, I went to one LBS and bought a bike, they put me on a Large mountain bike, I thought it was cool till I started riding, then I sent two friends there, both two inches taller than me, they put one on a Large (exact bike as me) and one on a Medium (different brand). They were going to make my taller friend sign a waver if he wanted the larger size. Ok, so a newbie can't get set up on the right bike. I get more experienced, learn what I like and that I need a smaller bike. I go to a different LBS that carries Gary Fisher. Buy the bike two weeks ago, not much help but I knew what I wanted. Two weeks later, the LBS that promised me life time maintenance on my $1,100 bike goes out of business without warning (hadn't been paying their vendors is the roomer). This bike shop had been in business for 55 years. No more help from my friendly LBS. I was thinking of buying a Jamis Beatnik from a different LBS, they sold my friend a "2010 Coda" that ended up being a 2009, the dude swore up and down it was a 2010, then said, oh our mistake, here's $30 off your purchase and I'll true your wheels for free (oh wow, that's awesome). I actually still like the guys at the first LBS I went too, and to be fair, they told me I'd be fine on a Medium or a Large, I sent two friends there, bought my wife a bike there. But now you're going to piss on me for buying a bike from Bikes Direct after all that...what am I really gaining from buying a bike from an LBS? Not much here.


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## MatLad (Mar 29, 2008)

gabeiac said:


> I agreed with this sentiment in one form or another until about a week ago. I am all about support local etc. The problem is, I went to one LBS and bought a bike, they put me on a Large mountain bike, I thought it was cool till I started riding, then I sent two friends there, both two inches taller than me, they put one on a Large (exact bike as me) and one on a Medium (different brand). They were going to make my taller friend sign a waver if he wanted the larger size. Ok, so a newbie can't get set up on the right bike. I get more experienced, learn what I like and that I need a smaller bike. I go to a different LBS that carries Gary Fisher. Buy the bike two weeks ago, not much help but I knew what I wanted. Two weeks later, the LBS that promised me life time maintenance on my $1,100 bike goes out of business without warning (hadn't been paying their vendors is the roomer). This bike shop had been in business for 55 years. No more help from my friendly LBS. I was thinking of buying a Jamis Beatnik from a different LBS, they sold my friend a "2010 Coda" that ended up being a 2009, the dude swore up and down it was a 2010, then said, oh our mistake, here's $30 off your purchase and I'll true your wheels for free (oh wow, that's awesome). I actually still like the guys at the first LBS I went too, and to be fair, they told me I'd be fine on a Medium or a Large, I sent two friends there, bought my wife a bike there. But now you're going to piss on me for buying a bike from Bikes Direct after all that...what am I really gaining from buying a bike from an LBS? Not much here.


I am with you brotha. I live in Vegas, cycling is pretty big here and I still have trouble finding a quality LBS. One salesman at a LBS here did not even know what a compact crank was. He told me that he had never heard of the term. I thanked him for his time and walked out. It is simply supply and demand. Either give me a service at the LBS that is worth paying for, or I will do my own research and buy online. I do the same when I shop for computer's, my professional camera equipment or electronics.


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## real schwinns only (Dec 29, 2008)

Most local bike shops offer excellent customere service. I have had few shops that were rubbish , but i would quite think that one "especially in the case of myself" would feel quite a bit better whilst knowing face to face service offers quite more and it is a bit quite more personable and professional. i quite prefer it.The local has got my vote, You can find a good local shop they still exist in spite of all the poppycock and drivel that been going about, its quite preferred to waiting for some e mail correspondence from some twit because your cycle came in unrideable condition and then comes the bit when the nitwit is telling you to preform a willy nilly tweek job with an adjustable wrench on ones new fork and then withholding ones name. souds like a cockup is comming around " I.E.quite a big blunder on the way". One would think even a phone number is a major step in customer service and would be quite in order for ones business, as its much more personable, freindly and professional than old cold email. quite personally i would not shop with anyone that only can be contacted by email .As most reputable businesses offer phone numbers to service there customers. "Quote" a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets a chance to get its trousers on "Sir Winston churchill"


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## psykorunr (Aug 7, 2009)

A bike shop makes very little profit from selling bikes. Their profit comes from repairs, accessories, clothing, etc. That being said, they should not be offended at someone asking for their help with an online purchase. Any online bike will need to be serviced at a LBS at some point in the future.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

psykorunr said:


> A bike shop makes very little profit from selling bikes. Their profit comes from repairs, accessories, clothing, etc. That being said, they should not be offended at someone asking for their help with an online purchase. *Any online bike will need to be serviced at a LBS at some point in the future*.



Sorry
but this is false

more than half the bikes we sell never get serviced by a LBS nor need to be
many reasons; that someone might need a LBS
for just as many reasons: many cyclists never need an LBS


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## real schwinns only (Dec 29, 2008)

All bicycles will need service sooner or later even a well made non chinese cycle. they are not without some need of maintenance if one expects to have a proper running bicycle. (bicycles lead a quite rough existence) a wheel might go out of round from the odd pothole or need a bit of re tension . grease does not last forever, bearings wear,even the best bits wear, things come out ajustment a bit sooner than one would hope for.The good news is your local shop mechanic is lot closer than one in china. or the faux mechanic who's not doing you one bloody bit of good traped in the virtual  shop in cyberspace when ones bicycle needs service. "quote" a lie gets halfway around the world before the thruth gets a chance to get its trousers on "Sir Winston Churchill"


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## psykorunr (Aug 7, 2009)

I was referring to the servicing of bikes after significant usage, not out-of-the-box. Every bike will need service and repair, bringing in business to the LBS. I do not believe that online bike sales harm a LBS. What truly harm bike shops are online part/accessory websites and do-it-yourself repair manuals. Fortunately for a LBS, many people do not want the hassle of doing bike maintenance.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Oct 13, 2009)

psykorunr said:


> A bike shop makes very little profit from selling bikes. Their profit comes from repairs, accessories, clothing, etc. That being said, they should not be offended at someone asking for their help with an online purchase. Any online bike will need to be serviced at a LBS at some point in the future.



This! There is a shop I go to for all my repairs and tune ups on my Windsor Knight and Cliff 29er MTB. The owner let me test ride a couple Raleigh bikes when I was in the buying phase, but I ultimately purchased online. I even sent him an email prior to purchasing my Knight, just to see what he thought. To my surprise he wasn't upset and said the Knight was a great deal for the components. When I brought it in after assembly, he even adjusted the deraillers for free! 

Needless to say, I've been back there several times to buy small parts and accessories and for a 300 mile full tune up.


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## psykorunr (Aug 7, 2009)

I asked my LBS guy what he thought about me buying a Titanium road bike with Ultegra components for $2000. He said it was a great deal...lol.


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## chas0039 (Jun 26, 2007)

Much the same experience here. My bike shop was very eager to see my Waterford after I built it and they never have any problem pressing a headset or cutting a fork. Of course they would prefer I buy everything there, but their attitude is to support all customers. Again, this year, they are very interested in seeing my Ti frame after I build it up. They realize that there is no way they will ever sell me a pre-fab Ti bike with Centaur drive train and Campy bar end shifters, not to mentions a 65 degree stem supporting a Wing handlebar rolling on a wheelset with way more than 20 spokes.

Because they are such a comfortable place, they were the first choice when I bought my Ridley. I am careful not to mention how much I get from other online shops and I rarely ask a technical question on some parts I got elsewhere.


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## texasdiver (Jan 30, 2010)

psykorunr said:


> A bike shop makes very little profit from selling bikes. Their profit comes from repairs, accessories, clothing, etc. That being said, they should not be offended at someone asking for their help with an online purchase. Any online bike will need to be serviced at a LBS at some point in the future.


Over the last 20 years I've probably owned over 10 bikes. The only service I've ever had done at the LBS is service on the HeadShok on my Cannondale mountain bike and that's only because Cannondale is all secretive about the workings of and servicing of their headshoks. Turns out my LBS couldn't service it anyway as it was an obsolete model that they were no longer supporting and I ended up having to buy a new shock and fork from Cannondale.

As for the rest of the ordinary maintenance and repair? Learn to service your own bike. It's easy to learn and satisfying. The only things I won't attempt to repair myself are complicated mechanisms like the brake lever/shifters and procedures like frame straightening that require special jigs. The rest of it is pretty basic. Even truing wheels.


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

Here are the Bikes Direct LBS.

http://cyclespectrum.com/


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## skyguy2b (Jun 5, 2007)

I tried out a many bikes 3+ years ago and then took the risk of buying from Bikes Direct for the Immortal Pro. Since then I have purchased the Gigi for one daughter, Vent Noir for another daughter, Fantom Pro cyclocross for commuting/trails, convinced one youth to buy a Sprint, and just assembled a new Immortal Pro for a friend. These builds are getting better over the years (Jag wire, seat posts, better pre-assembly). My greatest complaints are the horrible saddles and the horrible pads on cane creek brake calipers (replace pads with Kool stop and they are fine).But the name brands are skimping in the same area. By the way I also own a Burley Tandem, A giant, and 2 GTs. But lets face it, it was not too long ago when you could buy a tour de france level bike for under $5,000. When 105 level bikesat the lbs are above $2000 its hard to knock bikes direct. I have over 4,000 miles on my Immortal Pro (He compared Trek and Schwinn and saw unbelievably lower components for the same cost). 

I have purchased a wheelset Mavic CXP 33 with 32 hole, with Ultegra hubs, but thats about it. The fact is I would have gotten rid of any 18 spoke wheel and gone to a known 3x laced wheel (3000 miles on this wheelset). Stop selling enthusiasts wheels that just won't stand up to regular road conditions. 

I love some of the new bike designs of Specialized and Schwinn but when I walked in the store looking at the price tags, I just could not pull the trigger. I take my bike to mechanic who specializes in repairs and sells some entry level bikes. He is fine servicing and supporting my family of 4's 8 bikes. 

Many of the frames are older versions of very good bike frames, so styling isn't always there but that is why you pay the big bucks.

Support the local bike shop: Tell shimano to cut the number of models in half (better value to customer-go SRAM), give customers options of bike stems, seats, wheelsets without charging them $250 for a fitting to be told you need to purchase all of them at retail with no offsets. Yes, this was discussed with a LBS and was the reason I went to bikes direct. Entry level bikes need to be cheaper (It should not cost $800). Checked the discrepancy of MTB vs Road bike costs lately? Sorry, some new business models are needed for the LBS


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

skyguy2b said:


> I tried out a many bikes 3+ years ago and then took the risk of buying from Bikes Direct for the Immortal Pro. Since then I have purchased the Gigi for one daughter, Vent Noir for another daughter, Fantom Pro cyclocross for commuting/trails, convinced one youth to buy a Sprint, and just assembled a new Immortal Pro for a friend. These builds are getting better over the years (Jag wire, seat posts, better pre-assembly). My greatest complaints are the horrible saddles and the horrible pads on cane creek brake calipers (replace pads with Kool stop and they are fine).But the name brands are skimping in the same area. By the way I also own a Burley Tandem, A giant, and 2 GTs. But lets face it, it was not too long ago when you could buy a tour de france level bike for under $5,000. When 105 level bikesat the lbs are above $2000 its hard to knock bikes direct. I have over 4,000 miles on my Immortal Pro (He compared Trek and Schwinn and saw unbelievably lower components for the same cost).
> 
> I have purchased a wheelset Mavic CXP 33 with 32 hole, with Ultegra hubs, but thats about it. The fact is I would have gotten rid of any 18 spoke wheel and gone to a known 3x laced wheel (3000 miles on this wheelset). Stop selling enthusiasts wheels that just won't stand up to regular road conditions.
> 
> ...


Entry level MTB shifters (Alivio) (wholesale) - $19.99
Entry level Road shifters (Sora) - STI (wholesale) - $139.99

It isn't the LBS that sets these prices. I buy road bikes for $X. I have a narrow range that I can sell them for - between the minimum price and the MSRP.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I have co-workers who want to start riding. They always come to me for advice since they know I ride alot. The first thing they say is they want a good bike that isn't expensive. To me expensive is $5000 for a bike. To someone who doesn't ride, $800 is too much. I have referred lots of folks to Bikesdirect because they can pick a bike based on price and end up with a quality bike. You can get a nicely equipped reliable bike for the same price as a Walmart "quality" bike. Most just don't know where to go looking. That is where I step in. They look at local shops and see thier bikes starting at $800-$1000. They panic till I point them to places like Bikesdirect. Shoot I even got a coworker to order a bike from Walmart.com. It was a full carbon frame/fork with Ultegra 10 speed. Not listed anymore, but it was only $1500. I built it for him and it was a great bike. It was identical to the carbon frames being sold on ebay. The price of the parts was worth more than he paid for the whole bike.

The only problem with bikesdirect for me now is I am military living in Germany. They don't ship here. I send folks to look at their bikes, but without shipping to APO it is a waste of time. Hint hint Mike. The German shops are way overpriced, and the base outdoor rec sells Kona's and Treks that are way out of most folks starter budget. If you want someone to use as a shipping point/buildup assistance in Germany, I would be happy to do it for you.


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

You are correct SkyGuy. While Platyius is quoting prices for shifters, those prices he is quoting are prices that are after market and not with the package of the bike (I could be wrong and probably am. lol. Platypius has much more exp than I do). It will always be more expensive top buy parts individually than with a pre-built bike. I will say that out of 16 bikeshops that I went too from Lakeland, FL to Jacksonville over to the west coast, that I came across 4 LBS that cared to give me their time and give real advice that was backed up by real experience. I went seeking answers in my travels because I new nothing at first and wanted advice. But before I did, I started trying to educate myself. everybody bashed Motobecane on the MTBR forums saying they have cheap frames. This was their excuse because the components where outstanding and the bikes were well below LBS prices. 

When I walk into a LBS, I expect to be helped and not told that a $1200 full sus bike will support me. I almost bit until I asked him to pump of the rear shock so I could test. He pumped it up to 250 and I compressed it 1/2 just by sitting on it. He still tried to tell me it would work. The remaining LBS shops were like this until I came to a LBS where I purchased my MonoCog. The techs were 2 guys maybe 20 at the most. The owner was nice. I really wanted to support these guys. Anyway, multiple visits later and much poor advice from them, they got my money and refused to correct the issue even though they led me down the wrong path. Fact is, almost any LBS you have to be educated to test the shop, then make a decision.

As far as the LBS brands, I test road Rockhoppers disc 29er, all models of hardrocks, giants yukons, and rincons, a all sub $800 models of jamis, feltm marin and finally redline. The redline and the Giant felt most solid. However, the price for the components was really hard for me to bite. SO I went simple with the 20er monocog. I really wish I would of purchased a motobecane. My redline has 8 miles on it and I am trying to sell it for 3/4 of what I paid just so I can set a reliable road bike.

The nice thing about bikes direct, is Cycle Spectrum is the LBS for them. They have multiple locations and I have visited one in Orlando. The guy was nice, patient and when I asked him about service...IT IS LIFETIME and Free! lol.. I asked why they get such a bad name. He told me, our frames have hardly changed design. And then he stated, I am not here to talk about other bikeshops and to bash them. I just want to answer your questions, help you and provide our selection to you. If you buy great, and if not great. We will help you the best way we can. I never got this response from anyother LBS. I already knew what I needed and will hopefully soon get a motobecane.


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

Platypius, do you have any connection or can you refer me to anyone that would be willing to offer the help that you do here in Florida? Even though I like motobecane, I am a sucker for paintjobs and I would like the option for others if I could find a reliable LBS.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ccd1977 said:


> Platypius, do you have any connection or can you refer me to anyone that would be willing to offer the help that you do here in Florida? Even though I like motobecane, I am a sucker for paintjobs and I would like the option for others if I could find a reliable LBS.


No I don't.

Price-wise, no one will be able to come close, really.
Bikesdirect bikes are usually either a) a Fuji with different labels, or b) one of the 'stock' designs from Kinesis (which also makes Raleigh frames).
Ideal is the manufacturer for Fuji. They are also the owner. So, Fuji frame is made by Ideal, sold to themselves (Fuji), then sold to the dealer who sells it to you. Bikesdirect buys from Ideal. No Fuji involved, and BD acts as the dealer. In addition to the direct purchase, BD can also sell at a lower margin because they sell so many bikes.

When buying online, BD also adds no value to the bike. ie: They don't build it for you, size you, etc. That's why online BD bikes cost less than the ones from the BD stores.

Anyway, in my previous post I was point out the range, not the price that the manufacturer pays. You commented about road bikes being more expensive than MTBs. I was pointing out one of the major reasons why. STI shifters are ungodly expensive. The cheapest road bike I can get is the 2010 Raleigh Sport. It has 2300 STI shifters, a steel fork, and a triple crank. It retails for $625.
The cheapest MTB I have in the store is the 2010 Scott Aspect 60. It's priced in the $400 range. One of the major differences between the MTB and the road bike is the cost (to the manufacturer) of the shifters.

That was the point I was making. Road components are more expensive than MTB, and cheap MTBs have a much lower level of components than a "cheap" road bike. One exception would be the cheapest Wellington from BD. It has the cheapest components (think: stamped steel derailleurs, cast iron cranks) I have ever seen in my life, and I wouldn't sell something like that in my store.

Anyway... do I as a store owner like the fact that the cheapest decent road bike I can get sells for $625? No. I don't have any choice in the matter, though. The fact that Bicycling magazine tells people that "entry level" road bikes are in the $1000-$1500 range doesn't help any, either. If someone isn't sure if they're going to like cycling, $1000 is a lot to spend on garage wall art. That's why I started renting road bikes. A customer can take a Scott Speedster S50 out for a day, two, or whatever and decide if they want to spend $750 on a bike or not.


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## skyguy2b (Jun 5, 2007)

*Components*

I agree that the overall cost to a LBS is WAY too high. By the way, the best man at my wedding who built up my Burley, Raleigh and GT moved to being a distributor because of the low profit margin being a LBS owner.

The fact is that Shimano needs to cut in half the number of component groups and costs have to drop both in a retail sense and wholesale. *Again, a new business model is needed given the tight economic times or LBS is in trouble*. I tried to start a youth cycling team and one of the great challenges was getting a race worthy bike that was affordable(and by the way you have to have different gearing for youth which =$) Sora shifters are out for racing. LBS are setting themselves up for future failure when the only ones buying bikes are 35 year olds and older. Talk about suicidal demographics. Here is the kicker, repairing bikes is so expensive that buying a fix up bike is impractical unless you have access to wholesale parts ($100 for tires????). The point about MTB shifters vs . Road are right on the mark. Shimano does this because they can get away with it. Everything Tour de France level at the LBS is in the short term profitable, in the long term is a death blow. You walk into a bike shop and want to buy 8 accessory items, you walk out with one because all 8 will total $700, come on. Bike shorts are how much?

I have found some wonderful bike shops unfortunately no longer live there.(Thanks Willy bikes in Madison, WI). In a town that was everything Trek, it was refreshing to have options.

guys for $1195 free shipping , I purchased a mostly integra group, a FSA light carbon crank(awesome), a carbon frame (That looks awfully close to a 2004/05 Louis Garneau 6.1 frame-let you make the call), store brand quality wheelset (American Classics) and it climbs like a mountain goat. This bike was under 18lbs. Somehow there are those out there that believe this is low quality or fundamentally different than a giant or trek. Whatever! I hate when the financial facts get in the way of an emotion. So the LBS has to have a financial value added service of another $1000 to match it. That is a tough sell in a tight economy. I would hate to think about the cost of that bike if I bought every item individually or even as a component group.

I used to own a small business and truly do not understand the lbs model. I go to the lbs to find the best mechanics. That is where they are an incredible value added situation. Unfortunately not all LBS have this service.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Oct 13, 2009)

I think the obvious solution is to sell BD bikes in a "bike shop". I know BD has some shops in FL and some other areas, but there are none that I've heard of in CA. I can imagine the big manufacturers wouldn't want their product next to an "internet bike", but the bike shop I imagine focuses on the following services:

1. Bike assembly and maintenance
2. Cycling accessories and after-market parts 
3. Point of order for BikesDirect bikes. The customer comes in, talks to a shop employee and they take a look online. It wouldn't hurt to have a few different bikes in "Medium", just to approximate a rider's fit.

A "normal" bike order and build would run whatever the BikesDirect price is for the bike plus $100. This would include having the bike shop order, build, initial tune and safety check, plus one tune up after 30 days. A customer could optionally purchase one year of free maintenance and tune ups for another $50-100. 

I could help someone pick out a bike that would meet their needs/wants within 30 minutes of talking with them. Then figure another 30-60 minutes for the initial build/tune. It took me 45 minutes for my road bike, and almost 2 hours for my MTB. For an experienced mechanic with a proper stand I'd expect no more than 30 minutes. So, for $100 you're looking at no more than 2 hours worth of work. Seems like a pretty good way to start catering to people that don't have a lot of money to spend, but still want a decent bike. Stock the shop with lots of upgrades to the common cheapo parts on BD bikes (stem, seatpost, handlebars, etc.) and you'd do a good business on those as well.


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## fun2none (Mar 16, 2010)

*Local BD shop*

Although I would appreciate a local showroom, I am not sure I would want to pay sales tax. I can't speak for everone but I bet most BD buyers are budget sensitive. In parts of CA the sales tax is almost 10%. The sales tax paid on a local sale might cover required upgrades like pedals, saddles, and tires.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Oct 13, 2009)

I wonder if you could get around that if you weren't technically selling a bike, but only facilitating a sale between supplier and customer.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

fun2none said:


> Although I would appreciate a local showroom, I am not sure I would want to pay sales tax. I can't speak for everone but I bet most BD buyers are budget sensitive. In parts of CA the sales tax is almost 10%. The sales tax paid on a local sale might cover required upgrades like pedals, saddles, and tires.


Or, possibly, paying the sales tax could keep your damn state from going into bankruptcy.

What is it with people not wanting to pay sales tax? How do they think our system works? Does the money fairy drop bags of cash in government buildings to pay for schools, roads that we ride our bikes on, social programs, etc?


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## Tucker44 (Apr 6, 2010)

I went to 4 LBSs and was thoroughly unimpressed by what they offered in terms of up front service, selection of lower end bikes (I'm not a racer, I don't need a $2500 bike, nor afford one) and any sort of maintanence program (1 yr. minor tunes that I can do myself) that I decided to get a BD Windsor Fens with 105 components, carbon fork and seat post for a mere 699...the fit is dialed and I'm spinning...


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## skyguy2b (Jun 5, 2007)

*Quit my day job*

If I could afford to quit my day job, I would love to open a small Motobecane store here in the Midwest, if Cycle Spectrum would allow such a franchise with a focus on service/repair. I am pretty sick of the corporate life as a project manager. Even the guy that does my repairs, continues with another job to support his desire to keep his bike repair business.

I do not mean to be against the lbs. Everything is against them. They are right on about Bicycling magazine saying entry bikes are $1500.Thanks Shimano! This was set up by the 1990's in which you could not even sell a road bike, to the introduction of the mountain bike(death of Schwinn as we knew it), to the hybrid(I don't have much nice to say about the hybrid era), back to road bikes. Now urban and commuter bikes, 29ers, cruisers, etc. It is difficult for a buyer to predict what is the trend each year. A single bad purchasing year or not knowing your local market will sink a lbs. There are a lot of cool bikes out there that just did not exist 5 years ago, unfortunately that diversity is allowing a lot of bad buying advice at the lbs.

I do this test all the time, take a kid put them on a mountain bike or BMX make them run a lap around a 3 mile park path. Then put them on a road bike and have them ride the same 3 miles. They never want to go back. Mountain bikes are for dirt not everyday. Who is giving all this bad advice? Bikes direct? Yea, lets put rich kids on full suspension mountain bikes who can't even get to real singletrack.

I am still wanting to know why you cannot get a junior geared USA Cycling pre-approved Tiagra shifters road racing bike for $600 with no changes needed. Can manufacturers even attempt to draw young people to the sport. I just road an event with 4500 people, I saw a total of 5 youth on the 65 mile ride (two of them were with me). What did I see? $2k,$3k, $5k, and beyond bikes. Where is this sport going? The only sign of hope were a group of unicyclists doing the 65 mile ride, now that was tough.

I just get tired of the elitest cyclist who defame anyone riding a POS bike or like to without any facts say BD bikes are all POS bikes. They don't own any Motobecanes nor would be seen on one and pout about how unfair it is. 90% of frames are made by a couple manufacturers and Shimano components do not magically change simply because they are on a Motobecane. BD simply fills a market void. Even BD pricing is creeping north.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Oct 13, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Or, possibly, paying the sales tax could keep your damn state from going into bankruptcy.
> 
> What is it with people not wanting to pay sales tax? How do they think our system works? Does the money fairy drop bags of cash in government buildings to pay for schools, roads that we ride our bikes on, social programs, etc?


Last time I checked, they took a hefty amount from my property taxes...and from every other little piece of my life they could find. I have absolutely NO misigivings about avoiding sales tax. Oregon seems to do fine without it, as well as many other states, right?

I know, I know...not supposed to feed the trolls...


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## CalypsoArt (Dec 28, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> Or, possibly, paying the sales tax could keep your damn state from going into bankruptcy.
> 
> What is it with people not wanting to pay sales tax? How do they think our system works? Does the money fairy drop bags of cash in government buildings to pay for schools, roads that we ride our bikes on, social programs, etc?


"Taxes are the price we pay for civilization."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. 

Yep. I find it interesting how many immigrants I know never complain about their US taxes. Some have told me they would have no problem paying more.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

TwoHeadsBrewing said:


> Last time I checked, they took a hefty amount from my property taxes...and from every other little piece of my life they could find. I have absolutely NO misigivings about avoiding sales tax. Oregon seems to do fine without it, as well as many other states, right?
> 
> *I know, I know...not supposed to feed the trolls...*


Let's see..... you = 55 posts. Me = how many? Is that over 2000?

In other words, who's a troll?

I asked a serious f#$king question. Opinions aren't trolling.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Oct 13, 2009)

PlatyPius said:


> Let's see..... you = 55 posts. Me = how many? Is that over 2000?
> 
> In other words, who's a troll?
> 
> I asked a serious f#$king question. Opinions aren't trolling.


Still trolling...you should know better with your fancy post count. A high post count (and it's really not that high, BTW), does not have anything to do with the quality of those posts. If you really think SALES TAX is going to get California out of the situation, why don't you enlighten us. BUT, why don't you do it in another thread and stop the threadjack?

Oh, and here's something to work on since you seem concerned with the California budget so much: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-statebudget-fl,0,95571.htmlstory

Cheers!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

TwoHeadsBrewing said:


> Still trolling...you should know better with your fancy post count. A high post count (and it's really not that high, BTW), does not have anything to do with the quality of those posts. If you really think SALES TAX is going to get California out of the situation, why don't you enlighten us. BUT, why don't you do it in another thread and stop the threadjack?
> 
> Oh, and here's something to work on since you seem concerned with the California budget so much: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-statebudget-fl,0,95571.htmlstory
> 
> Cheers!


Are you a moron?

Look up the definition of trolling.

Responding to someone else who declares that they don't want to pay sales tax isn't trolling - posting that you don't want to pay sales tax is closer to trolling.


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## TwoHeadsBrewing (Oct 13, 2009)

And now you're just name-calling.

Congrats, you're the first user on this board to be on my ignore list!


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Wow.

Anyway, back to the original post which wasn't about sales tax or inflamed manginas....


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

*Same here...*



Tucker44 said:


> I went to 4 LBSs and was thoroughly unimpressed by what they offered in terms of up front service, selection of lower end bikes (I'm not a racer, I don't need a $2500 bike, nor afford one) and any sort of maintanence program (1 yr. minor tunes that I can do myself) that I decided to get a BD Windsor Fens with 105 components, carbon fork and seat post for a mere 699...the fit is dialed and I'm spinning...



I had the same issue. All the bikes were really expensive and hardly anyone knew anything or tried to really help me. I had to talk to the bike mechanic for any technical knowledge. LBS are really starting to offer poor solutions to biking unless you are a rich person seeking a Tour De France bike.


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## Tucker44 (Apr 6, 2010)

ccd1977 said:


> I had the same issue. All the bikes were really expensive and hardly anyone knew anything or tried to really help me. I had to talk to the bike mechanic for any technical knowledge. LBS are really starting to offer poor solutions to biking unless you are a rich person seeking a Tour De France bike.


I seriously knew more about each higher end model than the people in the LBSs so I just said F it...and when I asked about their maintenence deals, they were crap...
seriously, LBSs do need to rethink their business models or else they'll go the way of Blockbuster...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ccd1977 said:


> I had the same issue. All the bikes were really expensive and hardly anyone knew anything or tried to really help me. I had to talk to the bike mechanic for any technical knowledge. LBS are really starting to offer poor solutions to biking unless you are a rich person seeking a Tour De France bike.


Hey now, be nice... we aren't ALL like that!


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Ps*

you know when you buy from out of state (at least in my state, prolly in yours) you still officially OWE the sales tax, right? That it's your obligation to report the purchase, and pay the tax?

Now, nobody DOES this...

Ditto with the duty, when you buy from the UK or what not. That's how PBK, etc, are so cheap, you avoid british VAT and US duties. The internet, it is not a duty free store.

And now, for something completely different...


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## tuccillo (Feb 22, 2010)

I am going off point here but taxes is only half the equation. Until many states reel in spending, including the huge unfunded entitlements for state, county, city employees because they refuse to go to 401K) style retirement plans like the private sector, they will have budget problems. People, by an large, don't have issues with taxes unless they feel they are being abused. I will now dismount from my soapbox ...



PlatyPius said:


> Or, possibly, paying the sales tax could keep your damn state from going into bankruptcy.
> 
> What is it with people not wanting to pay sales tax? How do they think our system works? Does the money fairy drop bags of cash in government buildings to pay for schools, roads that we ride our bikes on, social programs, etc?


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

ok. I just sold my mountaiin bike and now my budget just got nailed to $750 ouch. ok. TOn some of the motobecane bikes that have no name parts such as the bottom bracket, should these be replaced asap or are they relatively good?


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## chas0039 (Jun 26, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about the BB, just ride it until it wears out and then replace. The low end stuff seems to be brakes, handlebars, seat, chain, rear gears (on some), forks, and wheels. Other than the wheels and to some extent the fork, none of these will have a significant impact on the quality of the ride. Wheel and fork will be a big expenditure and you would be better off, in my opinion, in increasing the budget rather than paying later and winding up with duplicate parts.

Are you looking at mountain or road?


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

Road or cyclocross. Have not decided yet.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ccd1977 said:


> ok. I just sold my mountaiin bike and now my budget just got nailed to $750 ouch. ok. TOn some of the motobecane bikes that have no name parts such as the bottom bracket, should these be replaced asap or are they relatively good?


The bottom bracket is one of the things almost all manufactures cheap-out on (with internal ones, at least) because they're hidden. They're also one of the first things you'll destroy. So, yes. Plan on replacing the bottom bracket within the first 6 months-year of riding the bike.

Maybe this bike: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/dawes/lt2300_x.htm

And then save for new wheels and bottom bracket? Those VO wheels I linked to earlier are just about the best deal around for strong wheels. Figure about $250 for those with shipping and such. Bottom bracket, with install, should be around $40-$60 for a good one (I use VO for my bottom brackets, too; if they're square taper.)


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

on the VO rims, it says they are 130mm. The dawes does not say. Will they fit?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ccd1977 said:


> on the VO rims, it says they are 130mm. The dawes does not say. Will they fit?


Road bikes are 130mm, yes.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Argentius said:


> you know when you buy from out of state (at least in my state, prolly in yours) you still officially OWE the sales tax, right? That it's your obligation to report the purchase, and pay the tax?


AHEM BULLSHIT!!!


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

ok. What make and model hubs are for road? Di these differ compared to mountain bike hubs?


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

orangeclymer said:


> AHEM BULLSHIT!!!


Argentius is correct. Look up "use tax".

From an MN state memo on collecting use tax, one of the first lines is: 

"The use tax is a complement to the sales tax. Individuals owe the use tax on goods and services purchased outside their state of residence"

and later on:

"All states with a general sales tax have also enacted complementary use taxes."

http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/usetax.pdf

Asad


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

And Indiana's....



> What is the difference between use tax and sales tax?
> Both taxes are complimentary and are meant to assure the state gross retail tax of 7 percent is paid upon a purchase. A purchaser pays a “sales” tax when purchasing from an Indiana seller. A purchaser pays a “use” tax when purchasing from an out-of-state seller, but the purchase is delivered into Indiana.
> If a purchaser does not pay a sales tax or a use tax to the seller, the purchaser still has a use tax responsibility. The purchaser will pay the use tax owed on his or her annual Indiana income tax return (which is due April 15).


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

ccd1977 said:


> ok. What make and model hubs are for road? Di these differ compared to mountain bike hubs?


I assume you don't really want me to list every single road hub available on the planet at the moment....

Track/Fixie hubs are 110mm (older) or 120mm. Road hubs are 126mm (Old!) or 130mm. MTB hubs are 135mm (usually - DH hubs are often 150mm). Tandem hubs can be any of the preceding, 140mm, 145mm or 160mm.


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## ccd1977 (Apr 30, 2010)

*hubs*



PlatyPius said:


> I assume you don't really want me to list every single road hub available on the planet at the moment....
> 
> Track/Fixie hubs are 110mm (older) or 120mm. Road hubs are 126mm (Old!) or 130mm. MTB hubs are 135mm (usually - DH hubs are often 150mm). Tandem hubs can be any of the preceding, 140mm, 145mm or 160mm.



Ook. So pretty much any 130mm hub is a roadie hub. What about Clyclocross? Do they use the mtb huibs or roadies?


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Cx*

As you'd expect, it's kind of a mashup, but usually road.

A lot of CX frames these days -- metal ones -- are spaced at 132.5mm, so a rider can make either size work.



ccd1977 said:


> Ook. So pretty much any 130mm hub is a roadie hub. What about Clyclocross? Do they use the mtb huibs or roadies?


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