# Surly LHT vs Road Racing Bike...thoughts?



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

Hey All, 
So here's the deal. I have a 2006 Fuji Roubaix that I probably shouldn't have bought. I enjoy riding it a lot, but I think I would rather have a more durable and "well rounded" bike. 

I don't plan on doing any racing, ever, but I do like riding long distances with groups. Currently I ride with the "fast" or "medium-fast" people when I do group rides, and I don't really want to drop back too much...I'm a little worried about the weight and the gear spacing on the LHT, but I guess I can change that for commuting/city riding and then switch it out for touring? 

Also how is the handling of the LHT compared to that of a road racing bike? I would assume that I'm going to lose SOME agility, but is it going to be that noticeable? 

Ideally I would rent a LHT for a couple of days and answer these questions myself, but that doesn't seem to be an option...I can't find any touring bikes for rent in the Austin area :-(

I'm kind of rambling now...but I'm really just looking for a comparison between the LHT and a beginner road racing bike. Part of me wants to get a seat post rack on the roubaix and just call it done...but I don't really want to commute with it. 

Thanks in Advance!
Jared


----------



## rcnute (Dec 21, 2004)

Lucky for you there's lots of bikes to fit your needs.

I really like the LHT. But I'm not sure it's the right tool for the job you want. It's heavy. Feels a little slow at times. It's a tourer.

Maybe search for comments on the following: Surly Cross-Check; Salsa Casseroll; Soma Smoothie (and Smoothie ES); Gunnar Sport..and many others.


----------



## meat tooth paste (Oct 6, 2004)

Kona has a good commuter road bike frame coming out soon called the Honky Tonk. Faster road bike like geometry with rear rack mount/eyelets and front fender eyelets too.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

LHT would be too heavy for me on fast group rides with any kind of hills. But my Surly Pacer is a good all-rounder. With 320-gram, 700-28 tires and its heavy stock steel fork, my Pacer double weighs 22.3 lbs in what you could call fast group ride trim (photo). The frame/fork has fender eyelets and clearance for even larger tires, so it's made a capable winter/trail bike for me as well. No rack mounts, though.


----------



## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The LHT would be one of the last bikes I would consider for trying to ride with "medium to fast" group rides, unless the groups are very slow where you ride. The LHT was not designed for speed. It's a touring frame, intended to handle racks and fenders and carry large loads. It would make a great bike for commuting or loaded touring. It's heavy and not meant for speed.

If you would like a versatile bike that could handle racks and fenders, yet light and quick enough for faster rides, I would consider something like the Soma Smoothie or Salsa Casseroll. Or some of the other Surly models like the Pacer or Cross Check.


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

90% of the way a bike rides are half mental.

I wouldn't have any problems making a sturdy bike like the LHT my main ride if I had 2 sets of wheels. One heavy duty set of wheels for touring and normal riding and a much lighter wheelset with a narrow gear range for fast group rides.

A long wheelbase, steel frame and fork and a bit of extra weight really are no impediment except at the very top 1% of the sport.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

Thanks for all the comments! That gives me a lot to think about. I'll definitely check into the other bikes listed as well. 

I'm not planning any loaded touring at the moment, but it's something I definitely would like to do, which is why I was looking at the LHT. But I think realistically I would be better off getting something like a cross bike or relaxed road bike, building it up and then moving the components over to the LHT (or at least some of them) whenever I decide I'm ready.

Thanks again!
Jared


----------



## Scot_Gore (Jan 25, 2002)

averen said:


> Hey All,
> So here's the deal. I have a 2006 Fuji Roubaix that I probably shouldn't have bought. I enjoy riding it a lot, but I think I would rather have a more durable and "well rounded" bike.
> 
> I don't plan on doing any racing, ever, but I do like riding long distances with groups. Currently I ride with the "fast" or "medium-fast" people when I do group rides, and I don't really want to drop back too much...I'm a little worried about the weight and the gear spacing on the LHT, but I guess I can change that for commuting/city riding and then switch it out for touring?
> ...


I've got both. I have Spec. Allez (beer can Crit bike) and Surly LHT (plumbing pipe Tour bike). They certainly do feel different when I ride them. The biggest difference is likely in the tires as MB1 said. The Surly is running big sturdy 32's and Spec has skinny 23's. Go over RR tracks with the Surly and it's hardly noticable, the Spec sometimes feels like you might lose a tooth. When I first got the Surly, I didn't ride the Spec for almost 4 weeks. First time back on the Spec I'm at low speed looking for a cut through a parking lot I had never been in. I turn the bars in way that the cushy LHT would have turned leisurely left with and the Spec wheel turns a full 90 degrees and over the bars I go. Allez is squirrly race bike that was designed to quickly react to your actions and it does. The LHT, not so much. 

I bought both bikes for what they offer and I'm happy with both.

BTW: start a new post about seat post racks and see if you can find anybody who likes theirs.

Scot


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

MB1 said:


> 90% of the way a bike rides are half mental.
> 
> I wouldn't have any problems making a sturdy bike like the LHT my main ride if I had 2 sets of wheels. One heavy duty set of wheels for touring and normal riding and a much lighter wheelset with a narrow gear range for fast group rides.
> 
> A long wheelbase, steel frame and fork and a bit of extra weight really are no impediment except at the very top 1% of the sport.


I think you're right...I really just need to go to my LBS and see about taking the LHT on a LONG test ride if they're not going to let me rent one. I like the idea of having two sets of wheels too...although I would probably end up changing out the cassette that it comes with as the spacing seems really huge (good for touring!) but probably not so great for my daily commute. Although I do have one hill that takes everything I've got to get up it...even with my mountain bike turned street machine!

Thanks!
Jared


----------



## treebound (Oct 16, 2003)

Scot_Gore said:


> (beer can Crit bike)
> (plumbing pipe Tour bike)


 I like those descriptors


----------



## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

I own a LHT and although it's great for casual group rides of any distance and even on occasional fire roads, at my fitness level I would never consider taking it out on fast group rides.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

I think the Cross-Check is probably a better option for me...or something similar to it. From the Surly site both the LHT and CC fit the same size tires, both have braze-ons for fenders and racks, I'm assuming the CC will weigh slightly less, and it has a more "aggressive" geometry. 

Now I just need to figure out if I part out the Roubaix to build the CC or sell off the Roubaix whole and see about getting a built up CC. I think I would keep everything from the Roubaix with the exception of the brakes (I would go to cantis) and I would keep the current light wheel set for fast fun on the weekends  and build up an additional set that could handle additional weight, with fatter tires.

Now for a somewhat related dumb question. I'm guessing that my current rims with 23s won't fit large 40mm+ tires? But 40s seem rather large to me...what's a good size tire for commuting and general recreational riding? I would be staying on asphalt. Will the 23s actually fit on the CC (ie will the brakes be able to reach the rim?)

Thanks!
Jared


----------



## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

Averen:I coulda written your post. I'm finding myself wanting a more generalized all rounder as well. You know...something that'll take 700x35's, rack and fenders, but NOT handle like a boat. It's been my (admittedly limited) experience that you bikes designed for fully loaded touring DO handle like boats. No way around it. The very design attributes that make them handle so well fully loaded make them less than exciting to ride, unloaded. You're on the right track with the CC. Look also at the Soma DoubleCross, and the Gunnar Sport or Crosshairs, and the Surly Pacer. I am. I feel the best 'all rounder' tire size is 700x35. These handle dirt roads with aplomb, but aren't SO big and heavy, (ie Panaracer Pasela TG's). Lemme know what you end up with, and how you like the ride. I am especially intrigued by the Surly Pacer, because it has room for 32's (35's if you pick carefully), is a good steel frame, doesn't require canti brakes. Neither does the Gunnar Sport.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

Doggity - For me I'll definitely add full fenders and a rear rack...I pretty much "have to have" those things! I could double mount the rear rack and the fenders in the single eyelet on the Pacer...but I would prefer not too...and I would rather have cantis or v-brakes as opposed to calipers, because of the fender clearance  really I would almost rather have disc...but in all honesty they can be a big pain, and when you need a 100% dependable bike they can add some problems...possibly.

I think I'm about 75% settled on the Cross-Check, or at least a cross bike...now I just need to do some more looking around, and figure out what's going to happen to the Roubaix. 

Jared


----------



## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

averen said:


> Doggity - For me I'll definitely add full fenders and a rear rack...I pretty much "have to have" those things! I could double mount the rear rack and the fenders in the single eyelet on the Pacer...but I would prefer not too...and I would rather have cantis or v-brakes as opposed to calipers, because of the fender clearance  really I would almost rather have disc...but in all honesty they can be a big pain, and when you need a 100% dependable bike they can add some problems...possibly.
> 
> I think I'm about 75% settled on the Cross-Check, or at least a cross bike...now I just need to do some more looking around, and figure out what's going to happen to the Roubaix.
> 
> Jared


depending on frame size and your willingness to operate a dremel, the pacer may have more tire/fender clearance than you think. Mine's currently sporting 32c tires and 45mm freddy fenders.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

blackhat said:


> depending on frame size and your willingness to operate a dremel, the pacer may have more tire/fender clearance than you think. Mine's currently sporting 32c tires and 45mm freddy fenders.


Really my main hang up on the Pacer is that it needs one more eyelet for a rack/fender on the rear wheel...other than that it's perfectly acceptable. And like I said I probably could double mount...I would have to check on the geometry and see how it differs from the Cross Check. I'll probably head to the LBS later this week and ride a few cross bikes to see how the feel compared to my road bike. I doubt I'll be able to find the cross check here in town, but at least I can compare geometries and such.

Jared


----------



## 93561rider (Dec 6, 2007)

averen said:


> Doggity - For me I'll definitely add full fenders and a rear rack...I pretty much "have to have" those things! I could double mount the rear rack and the fenders in the single eyelet on the Pacer...but I would prefer not too...and I would rather have cantis or v-brakes as opposed to calipers, because of the fender clearance  really I would almost rather have disc...but in all honesty they can be a big pain, and when you need a 100% dependable bike they can add some problems...possibly.
> 
> I think I'm about 75% settled on the Cross-Check, or at least a cross bike...now I just need to do some more looking around, and figure out what's going to happen to the Roubaix.
> 
> Jared


Half the miles on my Redline Conquest Team are on the road with 23 tires. Other than the brakes (yes I know that can be fixed) it works out very well as a road bike. I think you are on the right track with getting a cross bike. For just a bit more I think you can get a lighter steel bike than the Surly. Stay with steel if you can, I think the ride is worth it. The ride on my Conquest is a bit rough.

You sound like a possible candidate for a custom bike. Also if you find a steel frame you like, you can always have extra mounts brazed on.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

93561rider said:


> For just a bit more I think you can get a lighter steel bike than the Surly. Stay with steel if you can, I think the ride is worth it. The ride on my Conquest is a bit rough.


I'm definitely trying to stay with steel. My RB can get a little rough after 50-60 miles ... that's at least when I start to notice it! Any frames you would suggest? 



> You sound like a possible candidate for a custom bike. Also if you find a steel frame you like, you can always have extra mounts brazed on.


Ya, all but the budget  

This thread has helped me to figure out my choices quite a bit...or at least narrow it down to what I'm looking for...so far the list contains:
- Mounts for fenders
- Mounts for rear rack (possibly front too?)
- Fits at least 35mm tires with fenders
- Around $400US for the frame and fork

I'm pretty positive I'm going to part out my Roubaix. I thought about going with bar end shifters...but I really like the brifters, and I have a FlightDeck I don't want to part with! I'm not sure what I can get for the frame/fork on my Roubaix...but it should help to pay for some of the new frame. 

Any suggestions on cross frames/forks that would meet these requirements? I know the Surly Cross-Check will meet them, and I looked at the Casserole frame as well, which seems to meet them, although a little on the pricey side, and unfortunately I can't find the "olde and busted" 07 in my size. Or any good sites to find frames/forks at? I'm not too good at bike shopping online, seems like there are lots of manufacturers and lots of options to consider.

Normally I don't put this much effort into buying a new bike/frame (which is why I'm in the position I'm in now!) but this is going to replace my commuter...and be my fun fast weekend bike...so I'll have a lot of saddle time on it every week.

Jared


----------



## superjohnny (May 16, 2006)

I think there are a lot of people wanting this type of bike. It has to be good for commuting & running around town (meaning support for larger tires and fender & rack eyelets). It has to be strong enough to ride through the winter and light enough to ride all summer. I'm looking for the same thing. It should be able to handle group rides and centuries with ease. 

I don't want much


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

superjohnny said:


> I think there are a lot of people wanting this type of bike. It has to be good for commuting & running around town (meaning support for larger tires and fender & rack eyelets). It has to be strong enough to ride through the winter and light enough to ride all summer. I'm looking for the same thing. It should be able to handle group rides and centuries with ease.
> 
> I don't want much


EXACTLY! Don't forget to add in some loaded touring too  

So far I have two contenders:
Salsa Casseroll $560
Surly Cross-Check - $390
(and if I had a big bundle of money the Surly Travelers-Check for those international tours  )

However if you ride a small frame you can get the '07 Casseroll for < $300!

Jared


----------



## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

Seems like it'd be hard for you to go wrong with the Surly CC. Build it up, takes pics for us Other than my need for old fashioned geometry (longer seat and head tubes, shorter top tube), that'd be perfect for me as well.


----------



## superjohnny (May 16, 2006)

The Surly CC is a great bike. It does everything you can throw at it, but really doesn't excel at anything. It's not super fast because it's heavy, but it's near indestructible. When I can find one in stock somewhere I'm going to pick up a Casseroll and build it up right.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

So what are some of the strong points to the Casseroll vs the CC? I'm guessing weight? 

The thing I like about the CC is the super wide tires, although I HIGHLY doubt I'll ever go over 35s. 

As far as I can tell the only functional difference between the two is that the CC uses cantilever brakes and the Casseroll needs calipers. I'm fine with either as long as the fenders fit and I can stop  

Any idea about the weight difference between the two frames? 

Jared


----------



## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

averen said:


> So what are some of the strong points to the Casseroll vs the CC? I'm guessing weight?
> 
> The thing I like about the CC is the super wide tires, although I HIGHLY doubt I'll ever go over 35s.
> 
> ...


66mm BB drop on the CC vs. 76mm drop on the salsa. vs. 72 on the pacer, 78 on the LHT.


----------



## superjohnny (May 16, 2006)

The CC has a bit more aggressive geometry and the Casseroll is about 1.2 lbs lighter. They both accept wider tires than most people realistically need. There is a guy here on the forums who put 26" mtb wheels/tires on his LHT... you get extra style points for that. They're both Tig welded CroMoly steel.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

superjohnny said:


> The CC has a bit more aggressive geometry and the Casseroll is about 1.2 lbs lighter. They both accept wider tires than most people realistically need. There is a guy here on the forums who put 26" mtb wheels/tires on his LHT... you get extra style points for that. They're both Tig welded CroMoly steel.


Not really selling this idea, but the Pacer will take smaller, fatter wheels as well. Here's a nice centerpull brake 650B-wheeled Pacer. Even on that huge 62 cm frame, the wheels don't look all that out of place.

FWIW, the 42-54 cm LHT is a 26"-wheel frame; from 56-62 cm it's a 700C-wheel frame.


----------



## 93561rider (Dec 6, 2007)

Jared
After rereading your original post, it seems like you plan on still riding with a faster group of people. I don't think you will be happy with a heavy, slow handling touring bike. Maybe you should look at a steal road frame to put your Fuji parts on. You can always sort something out it you want to put a rack on the bike. You'll be surprised in the ride difference between your Fuji and a nice steel frame. In fact just a change in frame materials may get you to were you want to be as far as ride goes and you won't have to go much larger in tire size.

Cam


----------



## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

A bike like this would suit a lot of people: http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/mountain/product/7005-wintertraineraudax-11764

Without fenders and a rack its pretty sprightly, but it will easily take them (but not superwide tires).


----------



## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

This is my own similar bike (with the same geometry, but without fender eylets)


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

It looks like the Surly CC geometry is very close to my Roubaix, the wheelbase on the CC is about 2cm longer, but other than that everything is pretty close. 

I'm not sure what the BB drop means, but from what I have read the lower the BB drop (ie higher number?) the more stable the bike is. I think for my purposes I actually like the higher BB with a little "twitchier" feel. But without being able to ride either bike it makes the decision a little more difficult...and since the CC is really close to my Roubaix I'm tempted to go that direction just because it's "familiar." 

It's hard for me to compare the Casseroll frame because the geometry seems really "off" from what I'm used to. 

And I'll be sticking to 700c, I like big tires with lower rolling resistance  

Jared


----------



## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Why not a cross bike? Essentially it's a road bike with provisions for larger tires. In fact, my Poprad has a super low 74mm BB drop and it handles quite well while being reasonably light. The only complaint is the soft BB lateral flex. It's very noticeable. This is the tradeoff, however, for extreme comfort in a racy geometry.


----------



## 93561rider (Dec 6, 2007)

*Soma*



averen said:


> Any suggestions on cross frames/forks that would meet these requirements? I know the Surly Cross-Check will meet them, and I looked at the Casserole frame as well, which seems to meet them, although a little on the pricey side, and unfortunately I can't find the "olde and busted" 07 in my size. Or any good sites to find frames/forks at? I'm not too good at bike shopping online, seems like there are lots of manufacturers and lots of options to consider.



Jared

Have you looked at the Soma's? The double cross and the smoothie ES may work for you. I looked at one of their track bikes yesterday and the fit and finish looks very nice. 

Cam


----------



## rcnute (Dec 21, 2004)

I tried the Casseroll and decided I preferred the Cross-Check. The head tube on the Casseroll is crazy long, so be sure you're going to use it.



averen said:


> So what are some of the strong points to the Casseroll vs the CC? I'm guessing weight?
> 
> The thing I like about the CC is the super wide tires, although I HIGHLY doubt I'll ever go over 35s.
> 
> ...


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

Double Cross and the Smoothie ES are good options too...initially I was looking at the Smoothie, that only fits 28mm tires...eh, just too many options!

Possibilities thus far:
Soma Double Cross
Soma Smoothie ES
Surly Cross Check
Salsa Casseroll (possibly...but might be a little too spendy)

The Cross Check and Double Cross seem very similar to me. I think for me it's either one of the Somas or the Surly. Anyone know where to find the best prices on the Soma's and Surly? 

Thanks!
Jared


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _The Cross Check and Double Cross seem very similar to me. I think for me it's either one of the Somas or the Surly. Anyone know where to find the best prices on the Soma's and Surly? _


$930 with free ship seems like an OK deal for a CrossCheck . Not sure I like all the components—I'd rather get a CrossCheck frame/fork and build it up with slightly better stuff where it matters, but that's just me. Can you deal with bar-end shifters?

http://www.jensonusa.com/store/sub/155-Roadcyclocross.aspx

For a CrossCheck frame and fork only, any LBS with a QBP account should be able to get you a set at a good price.


----------



## Travis (Oct 14, 2005)

i'll throw the bianchi axis into the mix, nice cross bike and with upgrading some materials over time its decently light

I think you might want to keep weight in mind. I have lived/riden in Austin and you fellers have some hills there. Rollers with nasty grades to them. There are some nice city trails with that kind of small gravel stuff that 23's dont really like but 25 or greater do fine on so cross bike tire clearance would be nice for those.

I bought the cross for fender and rack setup and I don't think you'll have much need for fenders so your cross world of bikes is broader. 

if it were me (and its not for at least the next 10 years and then I'll move back) I would get a light blingy race bike and a mountain bike. Those days you split on/off trail tooling around town just consider the heavier mtn bike as training. Plenty of quick road bike rides I would want all the bling on .... nice light wheels, better brakes than the canti's on my cross bike
I think the Soma's are pretty cool also but that would hit the middle of the market I think being pretty heavy. Your roubaix should be pretty light I would think ... maybe some mods for it for the road and then a cross or mtn bike?


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

@wim - I'll be parting out my Roubaix, so I'm looking for just frames. I'll be building up whatever I get. I can deal with bar ends, but I would rather not  

@travis - I'm really more interested in this as a commuter/tourer/group rider in about that order. Fenders are pretty much mandatory as I ride in pretty much rain or..well, sun, you know we don't get snow here  I have a nice mountain bike and a nice blingy road bike...I actually have a commuter bike too, but I would really like to do some lightly loaded touring this summer...so if I can combine my road bike with my commuter, that would be nice!

From what I've been reading these bikes will build out around 23lbs. The extra 3lbs is a little over a 1% increase in weight from my roubaix, but a LOT more flexible.

Jared


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

averen said:


> @wim - I'll be parting out my Roubaix, so I'm looking for just frames. I'll be building up whatever I get. I can deal with bar ends, but I would rather not


Makes sense. If you go with an LBS and the Surly frame, ask for their best price. It may be as good or better than a Surly frame internet deal with shipping. Good luck, have fun.


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

Just because I'm obsessing with this at the moment, here's a comparison of the bikes that I'm considering...with my Roubaix as a "baseline". And the "Surly" is the Surly Cross Check...


----------



## rogerstg (Aug 1, 2007)

If the Roubaix fits fine, won't the reach on the others be a little long? Especially the Double Cross?


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

I could probably use a longer top tube than what is on the Roubaix. All of the TT(eff) are pretty close to the same size, just an inch or so different from the Roubaix.

In all honesty I think I'm making too big of a deal out of little things, I'm sure any of the 3 frames listed above would fit just fine with some seat post tweaking and handle bar moving.

I think the deciding factor will be if I want to use long reach callipers (Smoothie ES) or if I want to run cantilevers (Cross-Check, Double Cross).

Jared


----------



## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

wim said:


> Not really selling this idea, but the Pacer will take smaller, fatter wheels as well. Here's a nice centerpull brake 650B-wheeled Pacer. Even on that huge 62 cm frame, the wheels don't look all that out of place.
> 
> FWIW, the 42-54 cm LHT is a 26"-wheel frame; from 56-62 cm it's a 700C-wheel frame.


 I _like_ it! That guy's obviously a Rivendell fellow traveler. My 650B based Bleriot was super plush, but a bit slow and heavy. With the more roadie geometry of the Pacer, you might just get the best of both worlds, built thusly...


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Doggity said:


> I _like_ it! That guy's obviously a Rivendell fellow traveler. My 650B based Bleriot was super plush, but a bit slow and heavy. With the more roadie geometry of the Pacer, you might just get the best of both worlds, built thusly...


Here's the link. That site has been around a while, so I'm not sure how much of the QBP 650B support is still reality.

http://www.freewebs.com/650b/the650bpacerproject.htm


----------



## averen (Jan 1, 2008)

I think I've made up my mind (for now.) I'm getting the Soma Double Cross. It really came down to the Double Cross and the Cross-Check. My reasoning for getting the Double Cross vs the Cross-Check is as follows:

1 - Double Cross has a slight weight advantage
2 - Double Cross uses better steel
3 - Double Cross is slightly less expensive depending on where you buy it.
4 - More color options on the Double Cross (ya, this one is kinda weak...but whatever, you know you like pretty bikes too!)

So there you have it  I'm planning on getting the silver Double Cross frame and probably a black fork unless they have silver forks out...

The one bad thing I've read over and over about the Somas is that the paint just doesn't hold up. So I guess I'll be stripping the frame and getting it powder coated after a couple of years.

Thanks again for everyone's help! I'll post some pictures when I start the build. Anyone need a Roubaix frame and fork  

Jared


----------



## booksbikesbeer (Jun 17, 2007)

for what its worth, i have two surlys, and i can't imagine that the paint is really any better than what you are getting with a soma frame. have fun with the new bike. it was fun reading this post since i've gone through (and in many ways are still going through) this same search.


----------



## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

Yep, the search continues. Like SuperJohnny said, we want a bike that'll take rack and fenders, bigger tires, and _still_ be light enough for group rides, AND do some light touring. We don't want much...I'm still thinking the Gunnar Sport would be the best, am trying to figure out a way to squirrel away enough to pay for one.


----------

