# Another amateur gets busted- Kyle Schmidt, EPO



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Wonder how many others will get caught up in this.

Velonews Article


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Suspended for purchase, not proof of use. That's interesting.


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## allenpg (Sep 13, 2006)

I was surprised by this one too. I'm from WI and had never heard of Ogema. I had to Google it to find out where it was. If you look up his name on Athlinks.com, it looks more like a runner/triathlete (and not a very fast one). I wonder if he was supplying someone else.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Fireform said:


> Suspended for purchase, not proof of use. That's interesting.


Why proof of purchase is much much easier. 
rules cover intent as well and has been used in the past.


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## Tugwell888 (Jun 2, 2015)

Googling appears to show he is an uncle to Andrew Schmidt, a young competitive cyclist. Hope not.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Tugwell888 said:


> Googling appears to show he is an uncle to Andrew Schmidt, a young competitive cyclist. Hope not.


This is why doping is bad. Right here.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

He raced once?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

C'mon guys...you all know he was just doing what everyone else is. He's leveling the playing field. There are plenty of doped up guys around here that have never served bans. Why is this guy taking the fall for everyone?


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

Sounds like they have some info from a few dodgy websites. Hopefully that's a bit of a deterrent.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

deviousalex said:


> C'mon guys...you all know he was just doing what everyone else is. He's leveling the playing field. There are plenty of doped up guys around here that have never served bans. Why is this guy taking the fall for everyone?


I'm sorry you can't believe in miracles.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

JackDaniels said:


> Sounds like they have some info from a few dodgy websites. Hopefully that's a bit of a deterrent.


I doubt it. There are any number of "legitimate" doctors willing to prescribe whatever you want for a price, and for many people, Mexico's pharmacias aren't that far away.

The very real chance that you will get placebos or worse from many online pharmacies hasn't deterred a lot of dopers. There are many, many online pharmacies where you can get this stuff, and the prosecution of one isn't going to stem the tide.


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## browsielove (Nov 22, 2011)

*Unsubstantiated*



Tugwell888 said:


> Googling appears to show he is an uncle to Andrew Schmidt, a young competitive cyclist. Hope not.


Maybe I'm missing something, but after quite a bit of digging I find no evidence of that.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

https://www.usacycling.org/results/?compid=58554

The Official Website - USA Cycling

The Official Website - USA Cycling


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## hardtail6 (Sep 17, 2003)

A 40 year old first time ironman participant who finish in 11 hours is a strong indicator. particularly one with a mediocre swim time.

IRONMAN Wisconsin Results - IRONMAN Official Site | IRONMAN triathlon 140.6 & 70.3

There was no indicator of any relation to little Andy on his facebook page... before he shut it down.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> The very real chance that you will get placebos or worse from many online pharmacies hasn't deterred a lot of dopers. There are many, many online pharmacies where you can get this stuff, and the prosecution of one isn't going to stem the tide.


A co-worker of mine mentioned one of his college professor's decided to actually buy Xanax, ******, etc from spam emails he received. In the end he got the pills and something like 90% of them were the actual substance (a generic, not brand name). I haven't seen EPO being offered in spam, but I don't often read my spam mail either.

Edit: Wow, this forum *s out V!agra.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

How I became a drug cheat athlete to test the system - BBC News

Evidently it is easy to fool the bio passport.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> How I became a drug cheat athlete to test the system - BBC News
> 
> Evidently it is easy to fool the bio passport.


Right, but the gains aren't as big as before the system came into place. You can no longer be Mr. Sixty. That being said, even if the gains are 3-4%, it's still a big difference in this sport.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

One guy microdoses and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Another guy goes to Boulder for three weeks and his HCT goes from 41 to 43. 

Bust both?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> One guy microdoses and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> Another guy goes to Boulder for three weeks and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> Bust both?


You can't go on a 3 week vacation to boulder during the middle of a ground tour.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> You can't go on a 3 week vacation to boulder during the middle of a ground tour.


So its OK to microdose in training?


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> One guy microdoses and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> Another guy goes to Boulder for three weeks and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> Bust both?


Lets make this even better. 

Rider A microdoses and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Rider B goes to Boulder for three weeks, and while he is there, he eats an edible marijuana concoction every night to help him ignore his sore muscles, relax, and sleep. Meanwhile, his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Which one gets busted?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Lets make this even better.
> 
> Rider A microdoses and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> ...


Still rider A. Marijuana is approved for non-competition uses 

Also, where are you getting these numbers? EPO has greater and more immediate affects on HCT than altitude.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> Still rider A. Marijuana is approved for non-competition uses
> 
> Also, where are you getting these numbers? EPO has greater and more immediate affects on HCT than altitude.


Rider A is microdosing a teeny amount of EPO. That's the point here.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> Lets make this even better.
> 
> Rider A microdoses and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> ...



Lets expand even more:

Rider A microdoses in Chicago and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Rider B goes to Boulder for three weeks, and while he is there, he eats an edible marijuana concoction every night to help him ignore his sore muscles, relax, and sleep. Meanwhile, his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Rider C goes to Boulder for three weeks, and while he is there, he takes an over-the-counter sleep aid every night to help him ignore his sore muscles, relax, and sleep. Meanwhile, his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Rider D goes to Boulder for three weeks, and while he is there, he drinks two Avery IPA's (7% alcohol) and a shot of Jack Daniels every night to help him ignore his sore muscles, relax, and sleep. Meanwhile, his HCT goes from 41 to 43.

Rder E goes to Leadville for three weeks, and while he is there, his HCT goes from 41 to 44.

Rider F in Chicago buys an altitude tent and spends every hour he in not riding, in the tent. His HCT goes from 41 to 44. 

Who is the cheat?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Lets expand even more:
> 
> Rider A microdoses in Chicago and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> ...


The one that keeps asking without bothering to look up the doping rules?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Lets expand even more:
> 
> Rider A microdoses in Chicago and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> ...


Kyle, that you buddy?!?!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Lets expand even more:
> 
> Rider A microdoses in Chicago and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> ...


How come some of these guys went from 41 to 43 and the others went from 41 to 44?


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> How come some of these guys went from 41 to 43 and the others went from 41 to 44?



Ummm...Leadville is at 10,000 feet and Boulder is at 5400. 

With an altitude tent you can simulate even higher altitudes.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

Clearly, from the snarky and useless responses, no one wants to touch the legal vs. medical vs. ethical issues.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Clearly, from the snarky and useless responses, no one wants to touch the legal vs. medical vs. ethical issues.


you ignore all the disadvantages from living at altitude so why on earth would anyone spend time on this?


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

den bakker said:


> you ignore all the disadvantages from living at altitude so why on earth would anyone spend time on this?


Clearly there will be no riders at the Boulder Valley Velodrome or La Paz, Columbia prior to the Olympics in Rio, since the disadvantages are so great. 

And altitude tents don't rent for $500/mo., either.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Clearly there will be no riders at the Boulder Valley Velodrome or La Paz, Columbia prior to the Olympics in Rio, since the disadvantages are so great.
> 
> And altitude tents don't rent for $500/mo., either.


"Clearly, from the snarky and useless responses,...."


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> Clearly there will be no riders at the Boulder Valley Velodrome or La Paz, Columbia prior to the Olympics in Rio, since the disadvantages are so great.
> 
> And altitude tents don't rent for $500/mo., either.


I would bet there won't be any training in La Paz, Colombia. 

La Paz is in Bolivia <facepalm >


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## star69 (Apr 4, 2014)

The pointy end of the CA masters racing scene is suspicious as hell.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

honkinunit said:


> Clearly, from the snarky and useless responses, no one wants to touch the legal vs. medical vs. ethical issues.


Legal? Depends on how the rider got the EPO.
Medical? Depends on too many things to go into.
Ethical? The guy using EPO is likely fully aware he's breaking a rule. Altitude tents are still legal under WADA, and anyone who made the investment likely knows about the debate. If you're moving to Boulder, consuming alcohol and pot is a prerequisite for residency.

...then again, anything to level the playing field, right? Everyone's doing it. You won't get caught, and if you don't get caught you aren't guilty. USADA is on a witch hunt. It must have been a tainted supplement...

Doesn't any of this get old after a while?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Clearly, from the snarky and useless responses, no one wants to touch the legal vs. medical vs. ethical issues.


You had a lot of examples. And you are trying to introduce shades of grey. But your examples boil down to this: 

_Rider A increases his hct without breaking the rules
Rider B increases his hct while breaking the rules

Who is the cheat? _

When you look at it that way, there is no grey area. It's black and white.






star69 said:


> The pointy end of the CA masters racing scene is suspicious as hell.


Are you talking about the former pros on masters teams in socal? Some of them were sanctioned while racing professionally. 

One in particular was caught and sanctioned. I think he rode for Rock Racing. When he returned he was caught trying to tamper with test results. Later he sued a woman who spoke the truth about him and was prosecuted for witness intimidation. 

Classy.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Lets expand even more:
> 
> Rider A microdoses in Chicago and his HCT goes from 41 to 43.
> 
> ...


Rider D, of course. He did not share his beer or Jack


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## star69 (Apr 4, 2014)

Local Hero said:


> Are you talking about the former pros on masters teams in socal? Some of them were sanctioned while racing professionally.


Talking about 1. guys who have been busted; 2. guys who have privately acknowledged it's happening; 3. guys who have had ridiculous improvements at nationals


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Well, there certainly a lot of national champs in California. It's not uncommon to see two in a field, even at smaller races.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Well, there certainly a lot of national champs in California. It's not uncommon to see two in a field, even at smaller races.


One of the first masters crits I did out there I was in a break of 6 and I was the only one without national champs or world champs flashing on my jersey.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> One of the first masters crits I did out there I was in a break of 6 and I was the only one without national champs or world champs flashing on my jersey.


Cyclocross is the same. Last January I was in a field (35+, 45+, 55+ combined) with three world champs and two national champs. Then again, when it comes to cross a world champ is about the same as a national champ -- very few euro pros come to the stateside world championships. Those guys blew my doors off, even the 55+ monster. (That doesn't mean he's dirty, I just suck at 'cross.)


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Clearly, from the snarky and useless responses, no one wants to touch the legal vs. medical vs. ethical issues.


Perhaps it is because you do not know what you are talking about. 

The average person with a 40 hct would increase to 41.5 after a month in Boulder. A rider not on the biopassport does not have to worry about Hct fluctuation can microdose daily and bring his hct up to 48. 

During a GT an undoped rider's Hct decreases on average of 13%. What do you think works better to keep your Hct up during a GT, microdosing EPO or sleeping in an altitude tent?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

And crickets from the guy that wants to talk about the real issues....


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Perhaps it is because you do not know what you are talking about.
> 
> The average person with a 40 hct would increase to 41.5 after a month in Boulder. A rider not on the biopassport does not have to worry about Hct fluctuation can microdose daily and bring his hct up to 48.
> 
> During a GT an undoped rider's Hct decreases on average of 13%. What do you think works better to keep your Hct up during a GT, microdosing EPO or sleeping in an altitude tent?



Altitude tent: $500/mo rental
EPO: Let's say $500/mo

Unassisted riders get whipped either way. What difference does it make whether the HCT boost came from EPO or $500/mo for a tent? WADA came close to banning altitude tents, but backed off. Discuss.

Further discussion: Why do the US Olympic medal winners from 1984 still have their medals?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Altitude tent: $500/mo rental
> EPO: Let's say $500/mo
> 
> Unassisted riders get whipped either way. What difference does it make whether the HCT boost came from EPO or $500/mo for a tent? WADA came close to banning altitude tents, but backed off. Discuss.
> ...


Did you read what I wrote? 

Do you really think going from 40 to 41.5 is the same as going from 40 to 48? Really? Do you really think you can use a tent in the 3rd week of a GT to raise Hct? Really?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

In this reality. amateurs race in grand tours.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Altitude tents do not equal taking EPO. Otherwise no one would risk getting caught taking EPO.

84 medals - because blood doping was not specifically banned.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Altitude tents are expensive and a pain in the rear, both to maintain and use. Just sleeping in them 8 hours is insufficient unless you blast the settings to 30,000ft. An athlete needs to spend 12+ hours in there to get significant gains. 

That said, even if a tent were freely available to me, I would not subject myself to it. My freedom of movement is more important to me than winning some races (or even a national championship).


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> In this reality. amateurs race in grand tours.


In this reality sleeping in a tent for 12 hours a day to move your Hct from 40 to 41.5 is the same as 30 seconds of EPO injections that will take you to 54 in a matter of weeks

:thumbsup:


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

So apparently to the "reality" here, it doesn't matter if there is a level playing field, as long as no one does anything not specifically prohibited by the rules. 

The 1984 US Olympic team are heroes. 

People using any drug not on the banned list are fine. 

Altitude tents are fine. 

As Einstein said, if you keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result, you are insane, and that is what we have here. 

Here is the solution pick HCT and hormone numbers that are 97th percentile. I'm guessing HCT is around 45, but I don't know. Whatever they are. 

If your HCT or other markers are above the threshold, you are banned for six months. 

No waivers, no "therapeutic" drugs. Any caffeine above what you would get from a Starbucks Venti is banned. Ibuprofen is banned. Aspirin is banned. If you are randomly tested and your BAC is over .05%, banned. THC, banned. 

Obviously, no other pain killers. 

You need an inhaler? Maybe the Pro Bass tour is where you need to be.

There you go. No one has to obsess any more about "doping". You have some kind of generic issue that requires drugs? The Greeks didn't care. Too bad for you. You go 100% natural or you go home. 

Why wouldn't we do this? Ibuprofen, aspirin and alcohol are drugs.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> So apparently to the "reality" here, it doesn't matter if there is a level playing field, as long as no one does anything not specifically prohibited by the rules.
> 
> The 1984 US Olympic team are heroes.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are many ways to improve, there are many ways to enhance performance. Some are legal, some are illegal. 

It's weird when someone tries to take the moral high ground but at the same time scrambles for any and all legal (or grey area) advantages under the sun. But when a person isn't caught up with the moral browbeating, a "rules are rules" approach is reasonable.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> So apparently to the "reality" here, it doesn't matter if there is a level playing field, as long as no one does anything not specifically prohibited by the rules.


The playing field is never level, even "clean" there are people that are more gifted. Other than the rules what do you really have to go on?



honkinunit said:


> The 1984 US Olympic team are heroes.


Not sure anyone here said that. That procedure and choice were murky for sure.



honkinunit said:


> People using any drug not on the banned list are fine.


Meaning what? What do you consider a drug? Are we talking supplements? Where does the line get drawn? Right now what we have to go on is the rules.



honkinunit said:


> Altitude tents are fine.


Yeah, I kind of put them there withe super aero bikes, they do "something". They don do anything close to what taking EPO does.



honkinunit said:


> As Einstein said, if you keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result, you are insane, and that is what we have here.
> 
> Here is the solution pick HCT and hormone numbers that are 97th percentile. I'm guessing HCT is around 45, but I don't know. Whatever they are.
> 
> If your HCT or other markers are above the threshold, you are banned for six months.


Might work you need to a lot of scientific research to back that up. They are doing something like that withe passport trying to track the fluctuations and look for things that indicate doping.




honkinunit said:


> No waivers, no "therapeutic" drugs. Any caffeine above what you would get from a Starbucks Venti is banned. Ibuprofen is banned. Aspirin is banned. If you are randomly tested and your BAC is over .05%, banned. THC, banned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> So apparently to the "reality" here, it doesn't matter if there is a level playing field, as long as no one does anything not specifically prohibited by the rules.
> 
> The 1984 US Olympic team are heroes.
> 
> ...


Stop with the straw man arguments. No one said that the 84 Olympic team are heroes in this thread. You are creating this argument to impose it on us to knock us down.
Want my opinion? They KNEW they were cheating, but they were allowed to do it at the time. That's the way the rules were at the time, so you can't ban them for playing by the rules.

You seem to ignore that sports are an arbitrary set of rules that is agreed to.

If you want to start another thread about the morality of currently allowed methods, go for it. But bombarding a thread about amateur doping by imposing straw man arguments on people is just down right ridiculous.

And go read history. The Greeks used plenty of natural herbs as medicine. Obviously it wasn't as effective as modern medicine but they still used it. They on the other hand did not use the internet, so why are you on it?

The delusion goes to 11 with this one.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> Stop with the straw man arguments. No one said that the 84 Olympic team are heroes in this thread. You are creating this argument to impose it on us to knock us down.
> Want my opinion? They KNEW they were cheating, but they were allowed to do it at the time. That's the way the rules were at the time, so you can't ban them for playing by the rules.
> 
> You seem to ignore that sports are an arbitrary set of rules that is agreed to.
> ...


Bingo. You finally get it. An ARBITRARY set of rules about doping, rules that allow some to dope and not others, is nothing but an invitation to record book asterisks forever. 

It is well known that a LOT of pro cyclists have an exemption to use inhalers, a much higher percentage than in the general population. Why allow that? Just tell them that if they need an inhaler, they need another line of work. How hard is that? You have a natural 45+ HCT? Good for you, you freak. Figure out a way to LOWER it to 45. Level playing field, right? 

Holy hell, they just banned MOTORHOMES to level the playing field, why not go all the way?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

How does a rider lower his hct?

Once you start setting arbitrary limits on natural abilities or genetics, where do you stop?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Level playing field, right?


ah yes that old nonsense.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Level the playing field?

Cycling would be kind of boring without the climbs


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> How does a rider lower his hct?
> 
> Once you start setting arbitrary limits on natural abilities or genetics, where do you stop?


About the same place you stop with allowing *some* riders to dope and others not to, I guess. How arbitrary is that?

I, in fact, was pushed inhalers for "exercise induced asthma" twice by two different doctors when I happened to go for a scheduled physical the day after a hard race. I had raspy inhales/exhales, and both doctors immediately said I should use an inhaler. I actually filled one of the prescriptions, but I only used the thing about twice. I mean hell, that's what my lungs sound like the day after three hours of hard effort. Silly me, I never thought of taking a hit BEFORE a climb, like Froome does. I couldn't even imagine whipping out an inhaler in the middle of a race, but hey, I guess that's why I never got anywhere.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> The 1984 US Olympic team are heroes.
> .


To who? 

When the story came out about what they did the public was revolted


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Actually we are pointing out that you don't get it. 


This statement above proves that.



honkinunit said:


> You have a natural 45+ HCT? Good for you, you freak. Figure out a way to LOWER it to 45. Level playing field, right?


How the hell would one even do that? In a safe legal (no needles) way?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

if HCTs have to be under 50 (without the rare exemption)
there is already a bar
problem is in grand tours, the strain reduces it (along with hormones, body fat, etc...)
So riders 'topping off' seems to be the issue


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Actually we are pointing out that you don't get it.
> 
> 
> This statement above proves that.
> ...


Since when were needles illegal? Pro cyclists take IV bags all the time. 

Ever give blood? Give a pint and rehydrate. Your HCT drops. There you go.

Every doper already knows how to lower their HCT. It is part of the game.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Since when were needles illegal? Pro cyclists take IV bags all the time.


try and keep up. seriously 
UCI approves no needle policy | Cyclingnews.com


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> Since when were needles illegal? Pro cyclists take IV bags all the time.
> 
> Ever give blood? Give a pint and rehydrate. Your HCT drops. There you go.
> 
> Every doper already knows how to lower their HCT. It is part of the game.


So you suggesting that my wife (who has a high HCT) should have had to withdraw her blood every time she raced? That sounds dangerous and unhealthy.

So any "advantage" must be leveled. I corner well how do we deal with that give me shitty tires?

Dude your seriously ****ing wacked.

Your "ideas" make no sense.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> About the same place you stop with allowing *some* riders to dope and others not to, I guess. How arbitrary is that?


Well you argued against arbitrary rules and then proposed an arbitrary rule. 


> I, in fact, was pushed inhalers for "exercise induced asthma" twice by two different doctors when I happened to go for a scheduled physical the day after a hard race. I had raspy inhales/exhales, and both doctors immediately said I should use an inhaler. I actually filled one of the prescriptions, but I only used the thing about twice. I mean hell, that's what my lungs sound like the day after three hours of hard effort. Silly me, I never thought of taking a hit BEFORE a climb, like Froome does. I couldn't even imagine whipping out an inhaler in the middle of a race, but hey, *I guess that's why I never got anywhere*.


There might be other reasons too.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Is there a point to actually be made here? Or does hokinunit have a naturally low HCT and Vo2 and he's just whining about it?

We should send him over to some F1 forums and have him start a post about how everyone needs to use the same car.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> Is there a point to actually be made here? Or does hokinunit have a naturally low HCT and Vo2 and he's just whining about it?
> 
> We should send him over to some F1 forums and have him start a post about how everyone needs to use the same car.


Why go to an F1 forum for that discussion? Bicycles are way more regulated than F1 cars. Your bike has to fit certain very specific dimensions, your handlebars have to be of a certain type, your body position on the bike must be within certain parameters, and the bike has to weigh at least 6.8kg. 

The rider must only wear clothing that conforms to the rules. The rider cannot wear a radio. The rider cannot use a motorhome. 

Why are there all of these rules? To level the playing field, right? 

But wait, some riders get TUEs and can dope, but only certain dope. Anyone can take "legal" drugs. Why are some drugs "legal"? I thought we were trying to measure the "natural" athletic ability? So, if a drug is "legal", it is OK to take it, even if it enhances your performance? If you can convince a single doctor in the entire world that you have "Exercise Induced Asthma" you get to use an inhaler with steroid based vapor and everyone is OK with that? 

So all that matters is the rule book?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Why go to an F1 forum for that discussion? Bicycles are way more regulated than F1 cars. Your bike has to fit certain very specific dimensions, your handlebars have to be of a certain type, your body position on the bike must be within certain parameters, and the bike has to weigh at least 6.8kg.


Maybe you should look at the F1 rule book. All cars must have the same size engine (liters and cylinders), all their aerodynamics are carefully regulated (more than the UCI's 3:1 rule), etc.



> But wait, some riders get TUEs and can dope, but only certain dope. Anyone can take "legal" drugs. Why are some drugs "legal"? I thought we were trying to measure the "natural" athletic ability? So, if a drug is "legal", it is OK to take it, even if it enhances your performance? If you can convince a single doctor in the entire world that you have "Exercise Induced Asthma" you get to use an inhaler with steroid based vapor and everyone is OK with that?


The TUE process is under abuse, no argument there. There are proposals in place to reduce TUE abuse, such as a central pharmacy.

It's easy to sit there and play armchair quarterback and point out all the problems. Where are your solutions? Seemingly from your posts you're almost implying we should require everyone to ride the same bike, have the same HCT, train the same amount, and all live in the same place, all while drinking the same amount of beer.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Why go to an F1 forum for that discussion? Bicycles are way more regulated than F1 cars. Your bike has to fit certain very specific dimensions, your handlebars have to be of a certain type, your body position on the bike must be within certain parameters, and the bike has to weigh at least 6.8kg.
> 
> The rider must only wear clothing that conforms to the rules. The rider cannot wear a radio. The rider cannot use a motorhome.
> 
> ...


There are legal ways to enhance performance and there are illegal ways to enhance performance. 

I agree that some of the rules are arbitrary and stupid, such as the bed rule or the minimum bike weight limits. That said, other rules make sense. And we have to draw the line somewhere.

What are you worried about anyway? It's not like amateurs are ever really tested. Nobody weighs amateur bikes.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> There are legal ways to enhance performance and there are illegal ways to enhance performance.
> 
> I agree that some of the rules are arbitrary and stupid, such as the bed rule or the minimum bike weight limits. That said, other rules make sense. And we have to draw the line somewhere.
> 
> What are you worried about anyway? It's not like amateurs are ever really tested. Nobody weighs amateur bikes.


Yes, we have arbitrary and stupid rules, but they track down some old guy's internet order and give him a suspension, and it is like there is blood in the water and everyone is all smug about how they busted "a doper". 

It is just like the guy I know who goes off on a rant about how evil LA is every time it is brought up, but he freely admits he got his kid on Adderall in high school so he would do better on the SAT. 

So there is a good parallel conversation. How someone does on college entrance exams has WAY more of an impact on 99.9% of people than doping up to win stupid local amateur bike race. The use of Adderall by kids in competitive academic situations is rampant, and most of them get the drug because they or their parents want an edge. It is easy to fake the symptoms, because it is just a questionnaire and anyone who wants the drug can find a doctor who will prescribe it. But hey, it is all legal. 

Should kids be forced to pee in a bottle before they take the SAT/ACT? What about TUE's?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, we have arbitrary and stupid rules, but they track down some old guy's internet order and give him a suspension, and it is like there is blood in the water and everyone is all smug about how they busted "a doper".
> 
> It is just like the guy I know who goes off on a rant about how evil LA is every time it is brought up, but he freely admits he got his kid on Adderall in high school so he would do better on the SAT.
> 
> ...


I agree there's way too little discussion on SAT scores on this cycling forum.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, we have arbitrary and stupid rules, but they track down some old guy's internet order and give him a suspension, and it is like there is blood in the water and everyone is all smug about how they busted "a doper".
> 
> NOTE - off topic ranting about **** removed


Right they did be cause the rules clearly state DON"T BUY EPO AND INJECT IT INTO YOUR BODY. Pretty simple eh.

BTW not everyone is smug. I'm most kinda bummed out by how many dopers I use to race against all the time. It seems just depressing to cheat at amateur sports.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, we have arbitrary and stupid rules, but they track down some old guy's internet order and give him a suspension, and it is like there is blood in the water and everyone is all smug about how they busted "a doper".


Are you implying Kyle isn't a doper? The delusion really goes to 11 with this one, or you are really Kyle and deserve a lifetime ban because you clearly show no remorse.

Of all the stupid rules out there, "do not take EPO" is not one of them.


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