# Hutchinson Fusion 3 Tubeless Blew Off Rim



## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

So I am sitting here at work today and all of a sudden I hear a huge bang. I walk outside on my patio to see my rear tire clearly blown off the rim. The bike was not in the Sun and the tire pressure was about 100PSI so it should not have done this.

Rim ZTR Crest 29er on My Cannondale Bad Boy (commute bike).

When I checked on closer inspection as the tire slipped right back on easy (too easy) I noticed the carbon bead seemed to have been stretched. Thank god I was not going down a hill or in a situation this could have been serious. Either way this is my second set of Hutchinsons that I have had problems with now. First was the Intensives that I had to send back as defective with less than 600KM. These tires are less than 400KM.



Of course I forgot a tube so I will have to tram home tonight and forget training.

(not my day!)


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

I never tried to mount a road tubeless tire on a Crest rim. Do you think the tire is too narrow for that rim?

I did try a standard 700x23 tire, and it wasn't going to work.


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## mattsavage (Apr 25, 2007)

Did you use tire levers to do the initial install of the tire? They'll easily damage the bead and cause it to blow off.


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

No levers but a few very strong guys. After we had problems with the Intensives I decided to be super extra careful.

Originally when I was building the wheels which have Chris King ISO Hubs I consulted Stan's and was advised this setup should be ok. Later they seem to be back tracking a bit on this but I have of course all the original emails.

All I know is I really wanted to ride today as its a nice 25 so I am gutted..


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

valleycyclist said:


> I never tried to mount a road tubeless tire on a Crest rim. Do you think the tire is too narrow for that rim?
> 
> I did try a standard 700x23 tire, and it wasn't going to work.


That's what I'm thinking is the problem too. Not sure why the tire is getting the blame here when it wasn't recommended for that setup in the first place. If it took a "few large guys" to mount that should have been the first sign things weren't right no matter what the people at Stans said.

Also - sorry to hear about the ride home being derailed - hopefully the weather holds up and you can get back out there!


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

Well I am not sold on the tire not being part of the problem here, but I am being open minded about it. The Ultremo DD never had a problem and Stelvios, Kojaks all with over 3000 KM on this same rim. ITs only been the Intensive and Fusion 3. 

When I say 3 guys it could have been done by one but it was just easier with 3 to hold the tire and wheel. I have done it alone, abet not with this specific model.

Worst part I was just saying on the ride to work how smooth the ride was. Pretty sure the Ultremo DD will be going back on well these get sorted.


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

From what I have seen Stans recommends no smaller than a 28 on the crests, and pressures closer to 50 psi. A combination of the high ID of the Crest and the high pressure probably resulted in the bead failing.


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

xjbaylor said:


> From what I have seen Stans recommends no smaller than a 28 on the crests, and pressures closer to 50 psi. A combination of the high ID of the Crest and the high pressure probably resulted in the bead failing.


Well as I am not 100% one who does not listen to advice I have the quoted email below.


You can use a Crest 29 rim
ZTR Crest 29" - 32 Hole Black or an
Alpha 340 rim Alpha Rim

Bob Nunnink
Inside Sales Associate
Stan's NoTubes
202 Daniel Zenker Dr
Big Flats, NY 14814
Phone: (607) 562-2877 x 208
Fax: (607) 562-28798


On 6/23/2011 11:39 AM, shamuscoghlan wrote:
> My weight is about 155lbs on my heavy days.
> The terrain will mostly be euro city (paved), and may hit the odd cobble stones.
> No or very little gravel.
> Mostly training.
>
>
> On 23 Jun, 2011,at 05:36 PM, Bob Nunnink<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > What is your rider weight and what kind of terrain are you riding.
> >
> > Bob Nunnink
> > Inside Sales Associate
> > Stan's NoTubes
> > 202 Daniel Zenker Dr
> > Big Flats, NY 14814
> > Phone: (607) 562-2877 x 208
> > Fax: (607) 562-28798
> >
> >
> > On 6/22/2011 3:15 PM, Tiffany Koziatek wrote:
> > > Tiffany Koziatek
> > > Global Logistics Manager
> > > Stan's NoTubes
> > > 202 Daniel Zenker Dr
> > > Big Flats, NY 14814
> > > Phone: (607) 562-2877 x 203
> > > Fax: (607) 562-2879
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: New Contact Message
> > > Date: 22 Jun 2011 10:27:28 -0500
> > > From: shamus<mailto:shamus>
> > > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Name: Shamus Coghlan
> > > Email:shamus<mailto:shamus>
> > > Comment:
> > > Greetings!
> > >
> > > I want to get built a set of wheels for my Cannondale Bad Boy. Currently I
> > am using 25mm Scwable Ultremo tires but the rims on the bike are OK at best.
> > DT Swiss types.
> > >
> > > New wheels I will likely get built with Chris King hubs and am looking at
> > your rims. For a 700 or 29er that goes down to 25mm or even 23mm what do you
> > suggest? They will be on disc brakes of course.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Shamus


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## mattsavage (Apr 25, 2007)

Dersnap said:


> Well as I am not 100% one who does not listen to advice I have the quoted email below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I was a tech rep and had read that second paragraph, I would assume you're talking about rim width, not tires. There's no mention of what tires you want to use... They probably figured a slick, wide tire since it's going on a "mtb". But, also I would have asked what tires you're going to run. The fusion is probably best on an 18-19mm wide rim, but it should "work" on a 24.4, but pushing it...


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

mattsavage said:


> If I was a tech rep and had read that second paragraph, I would assume you're talking about rim width, not tires. There's no mention of what tires you want to use... They probably figured a slick, wide tire since it's going on a "mtb". But, also I would have asked what tires you're going to run. The fusion is probably best on an 18-19mm wide rim, but it should "work" on a 24.4, but pushing it...


I also have quotes on which tires to use and what they said they tested. They said Intensive would work, Fusion 3 but its a bit skinny, and also the IRC but that they may not be available yet. I got tons of email of this going back and forth before I decided.

Still no reason Ultremo DD work and these blew off. Bottom line that tire should not blow off and there has been some bad advice given.

The 23mm will work on the Crest but will look very small. The
Hutchinson 25mm Intensive tires would be your best choice. if you
mostly want to use road tubeless tires I think the Alpha would be your
best choice.

Bob Nunnink
Inside Sales Associate
Stan's NoTubes
202 Daniel Zenker Dr
Big Flats, NY 14814
Phone: (607) 562-2877 x 208
Fax: (607) 562-28798


On 6/23/2011 2:38 PM, shamuscoghlan wrote:
> Sorry, but one last question:
> When I checked the crest 29er it seems that a 25mm is the smallest one should go?
> I noticed most the tubeless tires like hutchinson are down to 23mm, though
> currently I run Schwable Ultremo DD at 25mm. Tubeless I rather go so hopefully
> that answers the last bit I needed to know.
>
> Thanks again.
> Shamus


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## mattsavage (Apr 25, 2007)

Dersnap said:


> I also have quotes on which tires to use and what they said they tested. They said Intensive would work, Fusion 3 but its a bit skinny, and also the IRC but that they may not be available yet. I got tons of email of this going back and forth before I decided.
> 
> Still no reason Ultremo DD work and these blew off. Bottom line that tire should not blow off and there has been some bad advice given.


Did you check the rim to see if it was damaged? Maybe it formed a crack inside that damaged the bead to cause a blowoff...


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

mattsavage said:


> Did you check the rim to see if it was damaged? Maybe it formed a crack inside that damaged the bead to cause a blowoff...


I will have a better look tonight when I get home but as far as I can see its pretty much perfect. Actually even the rim tape is better than I suspected considering my first attempt I only went once around and had that blow sealant through the spoke holes.

Overall the tires seem to be in pretty close to new condition and all else tip top. Wasn't even riding much last few weeks because of serious allergies. 

IT would be nice to run these though as it is quite a more pleasant ride over the Ultremos and they grip much better.


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## worthcycle (Apr 13, 2011)

"f you mostly want to use road tubeless tires I think the Alpha would be your best choice."

Now Stan't didn't specifically tell you to _not _use the Crest, but they also don't tell you sure go ahead. Why run a mountain rim with a narrow road tire and why would you run tubeless road tires on a that wide of a rim (even assuming they can handle it) at 100psi? I run Tubeless Intensive tires on a Hed C2 rims (23mm outside) and if I ran them close to 100psi it would kill me. This morning I set them at 70psi rear, 65psi front and they felt awesome.

Now if the tires blow off - it is my doing. The Alpha 340 rim according to Hutchinson isn't even a supported rim...

Glad you weren't riding when this happened though!


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

Well I also use other tires on the bike so this is why I chose this rim. Also I like the all black with no brake pads as I use disc brakes. Ideally I keep the bike looking as stock as possible. Furthering that I did "ask" before I purchased from Stan's. 

I just got home and looked through the tire a bit closer and the rim. The front tire is fine but the back tire that blew off had the actual carbon bead give way. This is why it blew off and is a defect. 

Pretty sure if I was on a absolute road rim this would not have made a difference. 

Either way its a heads-up for anyone else who might be considering this and I am pretty sure I am done with Hutchinson. No other problems with other tires on the exact same rim at much higher pressure.


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## Gilarider (Jan 11, 2011)

No way would I run crest rims with road tubeless. I don't care what they tell you. 

The sticker on the rim lists max pressures way lower than any normal rim, when running tubeless. The tiny little bead hook is the reason, I am scared of it above 30 psi with mountain tires.

Another theory: I guess you could have a defective bead, but the Crest has a taller than normal bead shelf that helps sealing tires, but might have stretched the tire too far, snapping it. 

Either way, I say stick with tubes and different tires. Sorry if they told you different.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Gilarider said:


> but the Crest has a taller than normal bead shelf that helps sealing tires, but might have stretched the tire too far, snapping


I'm pretty sure that is the cause of the failure. With my attempt at installing a 700x23 tire there was no way it was going to seat normally in the bead shelf.


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

Dersnap said:


> Pretty sure if I was on a absolute road rim this would not have made a difference.
> 
> Either way its a heads-up for anyone else who might be considering this and I am pretty sure I am done with Hutchinson. No other problems with other tires on the exact same rim at much higher pressure.


Again, this is what I would call extraordinary use. You were looking for a way, in essence, to get the best of two worlds. You wanted a MTB rim to run road tires on. I think the guys at Stans should have tried harder to steer you towards the Alpha. Either way, in your situation if it failed I don't think I would have been that surprised.

Running a road tire, on a mountain rim, with pressure that high seems like is is ripe for failure.

It really sucks that it didn't work out, because it sounds like it was exactly what you wanted. It always sucks when those things don't work as planned.


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## mattsavage (Apr 25, 2007)

Dersnap said:


> Either way its a heads-up for anyone else who might be considering this and I am pretty sure I am done with Hutchinson. No other problems with other tires on the exact same rim at much higher pressure.


 I run Hutchinson road tubeless on all my bikes, Hutchinson CX tubeless for cross, never had a problem with them that wasn't user error. Usually damaging the bead with tire levers while trying to force it over the rim is the biggest issue (not saying that's what you did).

I love the products and they're 100% reliable and bombproof when properly set up.


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

Well Hutchinson hit me back on Facebook so we will see. 
For the record the Alpha rim is very similar to the crest rim but obviously not as thick. 
Overall I don't doubt the tires are quality but I sort of suspect old stock or maybe just a bad batch here in Germany. Even the Intensives before we put them on the MTB where on a road rims and they already started to show some bulges. Those did go back defective.
These tires are pretty much in perfect shape outside of that one bead that let loose. Front tire seems totally happy and fine. Either way both are obviously coming off and I will put the DD back on for now.

In the end I still may run the F3 on my bike I plan to build. Likely I will run Velocity a23 with a Chris king setup, but that is still in the making. Bigger problem is clearance for going much larger on the Bad Boy. I suppose I could use a CX tire but I really like to stay tubeless. I tend to find flats in the worst of situations  (like 70KM form home). 

I will keep everyone posted on the outcome, and thx for chiming in.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> For the record the Alpha rim is very similar to the crest rim but obviously not as thick.


They are quite different, with the Crest being 4mm wider also

http://www.notubes.com/ZTR-Rims-C18.aspx

Knowing what I know about the Alpha, I would agree that a 28mm tire is probably the narrowest you'd want to run on the Crest.


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

No question the rim width is a big difference. The other factors are more to do with rim stability, etc. Both still use the same bead technology though for how the tire sets to the rim.

For the record this the rims Cannondale gives on the 700 bad boy where also the same size running the original Kojacks at 25mm if not 1mm wider. 

Strange part is I never had so many flats as I did on the Bad Boy. Being either rims, tires, etc. I can't totally blame the bike as my other bikes I never road in Europe so its a bit different conditions. 

On my road bike up all the way through provincial team trials and hundreds if not thousands of KMs before I never flatted my tubulars. OK I am older, and heavier also now.

Rest assured my next wheel setup I will really think hard what will get built up. Only tried and tested instead of pushing the edge.


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

ergott said:


> I can confirm that the rim width is not the issue. I've run Fusion 3s and Intensive tires on ZTR 29er rims long before there was an Alpha rim to consider. I always had the pressure at 95 or less as I was experimenting with the correct pressure (settled on 80-85). The short hook is not a problem. As it is, the rim snaps into place on that shelf and the bead on tubeless tires is not designed to stretch at all.
> 
> I'm far more willing to believe that it was simply a bad tire. The best quality controls from any company still have some bad samples get through. No one is perfect.



I would believe this and as these tires are not very popular in Germany I suspect it all came from the same distributor and or batch. Glad to hear someone had luck with them as the ride quality is huge over the Schwables.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I can confirm that the rim width is not the issue. I've run Fusion 3s and Intensive tires on ZTR 29er rims long before there was an Alpha rim to consider. I always had the pressure at 95 or less as I was experimenting with the correct pressure (settled on 80-85). The short hook is not a problem. As it is, the rim snaps into place on that shelf and the bead on tubeless tires is not designed to stretch at all. 

I'm far more willing to believe that it was simply a bad tire. The best quality controls from any company still have some bad samples get through. No one is perfect.


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## Gilarider (Jan 11, 2011)

I thought about it some more and I was wrong at first in part, the bead hook on the alpha is the same as the crest, I thought the alpha had a normal hook, it doesn't. So, if the hook was the problem, everybody with alphas running hutchinson tubeless would be injured by now.

I do know stan's mtb rims are oversized at the bead shelf, see this thread if you have time on your hands: 

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...ions-erd-iso-dont-believe-sticker-638341.html

I would want to know if the alpha rim is similarly oversized as the crest at the bead seat before blaming the rim because, again, people would be hurt by now if it was and was a problem.

I would guess they are not the same because alphas are made for true UST-spec road tires, while stan's mtb rims are intended mostly for non-ust tires where the tall bead shelf keeps the tire tight without needing a ust-spec lip on the bead shelf to keep the tire from burping under side load.

Here's another thread where a maxxis engineer talks about putting a road tire on his crest rim and it popping loudly when it seats. I would guess that is not normal with alpha rims and, if so, would indicate the bead seat is taller on the crest:

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/skinny-tire-ztr-crest-681606.html

So i still say the rim may be the problem because the carbon bead is designed not to stretch, and may have just snapped, but, it could be the tire. Obviously, the one that snapped would have to be a little tighter, or a little weaker than the three beads that didn't snap


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

Most tubeless tires pop loudly when they inflate. I get same on two other sets of wheels with MTB tires also. That is just the tire setting correctly.

If a stretch of mm or two is causing a tire to kill itself then I would not trust the tire on any setup coming down a hill or in a situation of turning. Simple laws of physics still apply. Carbon belts do have an ability to stretch a bit with out tearing apart. Been happening on cars, Motor bike drive chaines, Bike drive chains etc for years.

For the time I am back on my Ultremo on the back but still running the front Fusion. Its a defn difference in feel.


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## Crawf (Oct 21, 2010)

I tried to install an Intensive on a Crest rim a while back, wow tyre installation doesn't get much harder... and I have plenty of road tubeless wheelsets so know very well the best technique for tubeless installation. 
The final result was a busted bead and a wasted new tyre.
I eventually ran 28mm tyres which seemed a good fit and probably the smallest I'd go. My money is on faulty tyre or heavy handed user damage, as you have to put allot of strain on the tyre when putting these suckers on.


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## Tupelo (Apr 29, 2012)

Doesn't the fusion tire come in 2 versions? Tubless and standard? The tubless version is a square edged bead, whereas the standard version is round. What was the OP using? I know Hutchinson says that they need to be mated to the same type of rim design. I just throw that out there not sure if it means anything to this conversation.


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## Dersnap (Mar 28, 2012)

Tupelo said:


> Doesn't the fusion tire come in 2 versions? Tubless and standard? The tubless version is a square edged bead, whereas the standard version is round. What was the OP using? I know Hutchinson says that they need to be mated to the same type of rim design. I just throw that out there not sure if it means anything to this conversation.


Tubeless version.


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