# XC Skiing: Skate or Classic?



## Lagavulin12 (Sep 3, 2009)

For staying in shape over the winter for cycling, which would you recommend? Skate seems like the better for overall fitness, but I'm wondering if classic wouldn't be better for compatible muscle groups. Thinking I'll ride roller 2-3 days per week and ski 1 or 2 days.

Thanks,


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Skate seems to be the most popular. Speed skating makes good cyclists, too, so I think skate skiing helps as well.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Goals?*



Lagavulin12 said:


> For staying in shape over the winter for cycling, which would you recommend? Skate seems like the better for overall fitness, but I'm wondering if classic wouldn't be better for compatible muscle groups. Thinking I'll ride roller 2-3 days per week and ski 1 or 2 days.


Skate skiing would utilize cycling muscles the most. Classic skiing is more flexible if you ski trails that are not groomed or not groomed for skating. If all you want is to maintain fitnes, either works fine. If you want cycling oriented workouts, skating is better. I do classic, thinking of it more as cross training than trying to keep cycling muscles worked out.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

What do you have for trail options? That might give you a push in a direction.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

Kerry Irons said:


> Skate skiing would utilize cycling muscles the most. Classic skiing is more flexible if you ski trails that are not groomed or not groomed for skating. If all you want is to maintain fitnes, either works fine. If you want cycling oriented workouts, skating is better. I do classic, thinking of it more as cross training than trying to keep cycling muscles worked out.



I'll second that. Skating is also more quicky rewarding in progression for less experienced skier. I'll second it even if I am a purist, old school cross-country skier who started racing even before paulii Siitonen invented the "Marathon skate". I ski classic, that and only that, for it's beautiful, graceful and I'm very skilled at it (!!!). But then I ski because I love ski, not because I absolutely want to help my cycling... (but then I'd still ski classic!)

Skating is technically easier, both on the movements and waxing. But for fitness, it's pretty much the same. The pain I have today (skied 10k today) from two days ago (15k) shows where it "worked" me.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

^^^ you need groomed or packed trails to skate ski.

If you have access to skate trails, I would do that. More fun. Faster. Easier. More cycling related muscle groups. It is awesome, awesome training, but you may end up building arms and traps over the winter!


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## mbcracken (Sep 18, 2006)

I started out skating about 10 years ago (+30 years of alpine skiing) and have just taken up classic (striding). I find it advantageous to do both as todays striding incorporates more upper core and upper body via double poling technique. Some say that double poling is just as fast or faster then a classic kick style. I think perfecting a double poling technique is also vital for skate skiing. But, I am still learning...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3QVD9kviE

Cheers,
Mike


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

mbcracken said:


> I started out skating about 10 years ago (+30 years of alpine skiing) and have just taken up classic (striding). I find it advantageous to do both as todays striding incorporates more upper core and upper body via double poling technique. Some say that double poling is just as fast or faster then a classic kick style. I think perfecting a double poling technique is also vital for skate skiing. But, I am still learning...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3QVD9kviE
> 
> ...



hands passing a few inches lower (below the knees) should add extra power. Like in rowing, the trunk is doing the bulk before the arms finish the work. Very nice exemple. But has less impact in a cycling beneficial activity!


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## mbcracken (Sep 18, 2006)

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> hands passing a few inches lower (below the knees) should add extra power. Like in rowing, the trunk is doing the bulk before the arms finish the work. Very nice exemple. But has less impact in a cycling beneficial activity!


The technique in the video probably needs further detail. The hands slightly dropping below the knees is more of a follow through of the force being applied with the hands/arms in a very short stroke up high. The idea is that the majority of the effort is generated in the abs upper & lower, pectorals and scapula region. The muscles in the upper arm and triceps are fairly weak in comparison and are used very little. The best way to start out learning how to double pole is to start with the hands almost touching ones ears then "falling" on the poles while doing a core crunch. If done correctly, your lower abs will be quivering by the end of a hard work out. One area that I have to focus on is making sure to relax the lower back enough to do a proper crunch. I also highly suggest stretching out after double poling as it can wreak havoc on a lower back.

Nordic skiing is a lot about technique. Nothing like pushing ones HR near max and being passed by a 70 year old guy. Ugh... 

But like others have said, have fun skiing.

Cheers,
Mike


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## TheDon (Feb 3, 2006)

Skate skiing is easier to pick up than classic, but both are quite fun. I'd say do skate just for an ease of access point of view.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

mbcracken said:


> The technique in the video probably needs further detail. The hands slightly dropping below the knees is more of a follow through of the force being applied with the hands/arms in a very short stroke up high. The idea is that the majority of the effort is generated in the abs upper & lower, pectorals and scapula region. The muscles in the upper arm and triceps are fairly weak in comparison and are used very little. The best way to start out learning how to double pole is to start with the hands almost touching ones ears then "falling" on the poles while doing a core crunch. If done correctly, your lower abs will be quivering by the end of a hard work out. One area that I have to focus on is making sure to relax the lower back enough to do a proper crunch. I also highly suggest stretching out after double poling as it can wreak havoc on a lower back.
> 
> Nordic skiing is a lot about technique. Nothing like pushing ones HR near max and being passed by a 70 year old guy. Ugh...
> 
> ...


Yep, I read you. This is a "new" technique developped since sprint races are run. One usually don't use such long poles for classic.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

TheDon said:


> Skate skiing is easier to pick up than classic, but both are quite fun. I'd say do skate just for an ease of access point of view.



What? I must be doing skate wrong then. How is Skate easier to learn than Classic?


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

For one thing; it's much easier to compensate with the arms for balance and still get some trust forward. Secondly: going with the wrong glider wax is less trouble than the wrong retention wax...

But let's get on with the firts argument:

Having bad balance; not being able to glide on one ski means you always need to put the other ski on the snow as quickly as possible giving you a technique mostly based on arms and shoulders propulsion. it still remains possible to progress relatively quickly that way. In comparison, relying on the arms and being unable to apply all your weight on the propulsion ski (biting with the waxed pocket in the snow) means a very silly attempt to go forward.

Skating is therefore more rewarding to novices since satisfying propulsion comes easier, although not properly efficient.

A good skater works with the legs, shoulders in line with the gliding ski and arms complete the propulsion, not compensating for lack of balance. but a skier relying on his arms will still go forward and "look" (at leat to the untrained eye) like a decent skier.

A good classic skier will also rely on legs, in a spring-like motion over the weight bearing ski pushing forward and gliding on the forward trusted ski (balancing on one leg) if you can't do that, it means your weight is not 100% on the biting ski, and you won't get any grip. So one would also compensate with the arms for balance, and some trust, as well as being forced to put the gliding ski down to keep balance. Not efficient, not good looking and not fast at all.

Try this for demonstration: if you are good enough, ask a novice to try it but try it also for yourself:

leave the poles on the side of a flat section and progess on either techniques on legs only. Getting a forward motion is much easier by skating for a newby.

I teach ski


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## natethomas2000 (Aug 2, 2009)

I only have classic skis - fish scaled on the bottom. I try to skate ski with them and I can move, but really no faster than when I have a good pace going with classic. I'm assuming my speed would improve if I got some skate skis.

How easy is it to do classic with skate skis? I guess there's no do-all ski for xc. I don't have any experience with waxing skis, and I guess that is part of my hesitation to get some skate skis.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

I used to XC ski a lot back in the 90s because I lived in a place that had long winters with lots of skiing options (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada). For the past 10 years I have lived in the greater Vancouver area and I did not ski much but started up again last winter and this winter, only doing skate though.

IMO, skate skiing is the better workout for cycling. I think skating is not any easier to master than classic stride, and for a new skier skate certainly comes with a higher energy cost. Just getting decent movement forward on flat ground doing skate will put a newbie at his AT. Classic stride at race pace is a very hard effort, but at the same time it is much easier to regulate the intensity doing classic stride for a new skier. Want to go easier, just shorten the stride or ease off the double-pole. I certainly know back when I was skiing a lot I could do a 4-hour classic day but I would pretty much die at the end of 2 hours of skate skiing.

Also, for the OP a lot depends on what you have for trails, temperatures and snow conditions. I will assume you have access to groomed trails. For very cold weather I think classic is better. Below -15 C or -20 C for sure, the glide really drops off and skate skiing is not that fun. At the other extreme, warm wet or crystalline snow is a waxing pain for classic (using klister) so skating is a better choice especially in terms of ski prep. Overall I would agree that ski prep is greatly reduced for skate skiing.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

They are very differents skis. I have very mixed feelings about fish-scaled. At best, they work so-so in specific ideal conditions, and are really good at disgusting people in their worst application... 

But classic and skating are very different skis; skating flex lay the ski flat on the snow while the classic flex is designed as the key to its efficiency: the correct flex per skier weight means the wax pocket will on contact when full weight is applied on one ski, and the glide ends will contact when weight is distributed equally on both skis.

So different flex. There are other differences (cut, tip, binding box, reinforced sidewalls) but that's the most important. Next: boots, binding and pole lenght are different too.

So you are right: no single ski does everything, BUT there have been attemps at "dual" use skis... Again with so-so success. 

My advise is to get a pair of classic skis en case of doubt, nut to invest in decent skate equipment if you already know you are up for skating.

But to love ski, you need to get it together: technique, fitness, AND waxing... Sorry, but it is part of it. Definitely worth the "trouble"... (I find waxing is much less a pain than changing a flat tire... for example!)


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## hoogerland (Sep 18, 2009)

I do both regularly. I can say that both are hard and probably neither is better for cycling, both are great for winter base training. Go to your local Nordic center and rent classic in the morning and skate in the afternoon. Have someone show you how to do it. Try them both, see what you like. Don't buy nordic skis based on workouts for cycling, base your decision on whether its fun for you or not. I have gotten pretty good on skate skis and just dropped a grand on equipment. You won't need this as basic and entry level skate/classic ski equipment are great for 99% of folks, but this is my 5th year on nordic skis and I race. Also, the #1 thing is boots, if you are going to splurge do it on boots. As far as which is harder - it took me a season to get skating down to where I can go fast. A good classic skier with proper technique can rip along pretty well and I have never been able to get to that level on classics. So for me, mastering skating has been easier.


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## Lagavulin12 (Sep 3, 2009)

THANKS for everyone's great input. I've got 15yo boots (Salomon Team Combi) and skis (Rossi Tempo AR Classic waxless) and ski about 100k - 200k per year classic. Decided to splurge today on skate skis so came home with Salomon S-Lab Skate Pro boots and Rossi Delta Skate Ski's (along with poles, wax, iron, etc.). Wife says I'll have no excuses for poor form now! 

Question: Noticed that my bindings are Atomic Pilot Sport Classic, not Pilot Sport Skate. Did I get the wrong bindings? Anyone know the difference in the two?

Also, is there a good xc message board similar to this one?

Thanks,


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## Todd_H (Nov 20, 2009)

Lagavulin12 said:


> Question: Noticed that my bindings are Atomic Pilot Sport Classic, not Pilot Sport Skate. Did I get the wrong bindings? Anyone know the difference in the two?


Congrats on the new equip. I run those bindings on my skate skis and they are great. The guy at the shop I went to said to buy the classics because the difference is minimal (few grams) and they were way cheaper.


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## mbcracken (Sep 18, 2006)

One note to those new to waxing skis is that it is very very very easy to burn the p-tex and close up all those holes. Try to hit a waxing clinic or a good friend that knows how to wax. It will save your invest in your ski's over the long haul. A quick and dirty rule of thumb is that if your wax is smoking, the iron is way too hot. Also always keep the iron moving over the ski tip to tail. Also, always scrape and brush tip to tail. Most beginning waxing folks will burn their skis in the first year of ownership and will need a stone grind to get the ski back to a point of accepting and holding wax. 
Waxing is very soothing ritual for me and I usually wax every time I go out per the conditions. My waxing jobs are typically good for about 30-40km on skate skis.

Again, most important...Have fun out there sliding around on the snow.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Tonis_t (Jul 29, 2007)

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> For one thing; it's much easier to compensate with the arms for balance and still get some trust forward. Secondly: going with the wrong glider wax is less trouble than the wrong retention wax...
> 
> But let's get on with the firts argument:
> 
> ...


Skating might be easier to pick up but it is way harder to master compared to classical style. You need to maintain balance from side to side as well when skating but in classical style there is no side to side movement. Besides classical style is much closer to the way people naturally move around (walking) so the balancing is easier.
Anyhow the point is not to worry about how good you are. Go out and have fun no matter which style you choose.


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## Killroy (Feb 9, 2006)

Skating is harder, but a lot faster.

Even when it is powdery on the slopes, I skate.


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## redliner (Oct 21, 2004)

Great thread. I'm new to skiing, have been using some classic skis, just trying to learn as I go. I took a skate lesson last week, had a hard time, but am determined to keep at it. The waxing seems like so much to learn. Do the nordic centers wax skis for the customers? Seems like the easy way...let them wax according to the conditions there & then. I havent seen it advertised anywhere.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*No-wax*



redliner said:


> Great thread. I'm new to skiing, have been using some classic skis, just trying to learn as I go. I took a skate lesson last week, had a hard time, but am determined to keep at it. The waxing seems like so much to learn. Do the nordic centers wax skis for the customers? Seems like the easy way...let them wax according to the conditions there & then. I havent seen it advertised anywhere.


If you're considering new skis, get some "no-wax, classic, high performance training skis." You just iron on glide wax on the glide sections and let the kick strip do the gripping for you. Unless you're racing, no-wax (aka waxless) skis are the way to go. I've skied with people who couldn't get their wax righ (which also used to happen to me on occasion back in the day) and it's a TOTAL pain in the a$$,

Also, it is possible to skate on classic skis, but it is far from optimal. I do it on our local trail that has a skate section, but I am obviously at a big disadvatage. The flex pattern of a classic ski is wrong, the skis are too long, and the poles are too short.


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## Tonis_t (Jul 29, 2007)

redliner said:


> Great thread. I'm new to skiing, have been using some classic skis, just trying to learn as I go. I took a skate lesson last week, had a hard time, but am determined to keep at it. The waxing seems like so much to learn. Do the nordic centers wax skis for the customers? Seems like the easy way...let them wax according to the conditions there & then. I havent seen it advertised anywhere.


http://www.swixschool.com/
This is a great link to explore if you want to know more about waxing. On the long run it will be cheaper to wax your own skis.


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## Lagavulin12 (Sep 3, 2009)

Many shops offer occasional wax classes - worth it to attend.


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## Dave_T (Nov 17, 2009)

*Classic*

I'd go with classic, more versatile on trails (who wants to pay to go to the nordic center constantly). I would also recommend lessons, technique is tough and without it you will be thoroughly worked everyday, not much fun.

Also, get waxable skis, it takes like 20 minutes of internet videos to learn and kicks the pants off of waxless skis.


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