# Training my weakness help!



## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

So... After a few races this year I've pin pointed my weakness and discussed it with a friend. My area is very very flat which makes it easy for me to do a lot of tempo and vo2 type training. Because of this I can hold a pretty high heart rate for a long time without fading as long as I stay at a steady wattage and heart rate.

During the races and group rides I've done this year I've noticed that I'm very comfortable in those circumstances. The surges and easing off shred me though.. A sudden unexpected hill throws me off and I go deep into the red zone to compensate. I do recovery but in the end I feel like I'm wasting a lot of energy and effort.

Last weekend in a charity race we made good speed along the 50 mile route. I took my turn off the front and we turned up a long 2% hill. The group passed me and I was blown off the back. After dragging myself up the hill I ended up time trialing myself back into the pack which opened up a 1/4 mile gap on me. Took me about 5 miles to pull them back in but I reconnected and stayed with them the rest of the race to finish in the lead sprint. 


So.. Anyone like to offer some suggestions to work on this weakness?


I'm guessing I need more high intensity anaerobic Z5 type stuff with recovery in Z3. 
I have a Power Tap...MY FTP is 250 and my LTHR is around 175. 



Any insight will be greatly appreciated!!


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't race, but it sounds like you should do more interval training. Keep in mind that the surges in racing are done to separate the weak from the stronger, and they're supposed to beat you up. They do that to every rider, it depends on the tolerances of pain.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah I figured intervals but what kind? To simulate racing the most I assume that mixing up long and short with low rest but not super easy rest would work.


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## HIMEHEEM (Sep 25, 2009)

I have had trouble this year with the same area. I have training hard, LOTS of intervals and tons of hard training. I consulted a friend/trainer who looked over my training data and program. He put me through some tests (misery) and his input is that I have been training too hard with too much interval/high intensity and have done too little base work. 

My "new" program involves a lot more base work with controlled lower intensity and still some interval work in the mix. I have already noticed some improvement.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

If you have a group of riders willing to train together you could simply simulate race situations. Have someone make an attack and have the rest work together. Have sprints to sign posts, have 2 people go up the road or fall off the back, et cetera.


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## Sumguy1 (Apr 5, 2008)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Yeah I figured intervals but what kind? To simulate racing the most I assume that mixing up long and short with low rest but not super easy rest would work.


This is what I would do....

Tempo with surges. Ride length around 2 hours. 15min warm up. 45 minutes @ 80% FTP with surges @ 200% FTP for 20 seconds. Basically HARD spin ups - staying seated. 15 minute RI. 45 min @ 70-80% FTP with surges @ 150 - 200% FTP for 20 sec. 15 minute easy effort home.

I would also look to do 3 minute and 2 minute intervals.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't know what good is 200% of FTP if you are only doing it for 20 seconds. You should be doing 200% FTP for 2-3min intervals.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx

http://www.cyclingforums.com/power-training/311173-micro-intervals.html


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

200% of FTP for 2-3 minutes? 

For the OP, that would be 500 watts. I have a similar FTP, and I know I can't mange any where near that for 2-3 minutes. 

I typically target @130% of FTP for repeated 2 minute intervals, and stop when I fall below115%. I target micro intervals at 150%/50% for 10 minutes at a time. I think the 200% -20 seconds are in the context of a Tempo ride with "bursts", to simulate pace changes. At least that is my understanding of that kind of workout.




iliveonnitro said:


> I don't know what good is 200% of FTP if you are only doing it for 20 seconds. You should be doing 200% FTP for 2-3min intervals.
> 
> http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx
> 
> http://www.cyclingforums.com/power-training/311173-micro-intervals.html


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I did a test yesterday until I managed to get a flat... held a 300 watt average for 10 minutes. Could have stretched it out for another 15 most likely. 

This week I've done a few sessions where I'll attack myself and not recover completely. The attacks hurt pretty good but they aren't destroying me. I'll plan a few sets for this week to see what I can come up with. The 130-150% ftp surges sound like a good idea. What zone should I recovery in though.. Z3 for tempo to simulate the pack speed?


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## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

I'd love to see Fabian Cancellara do 800-900 watts for 3min that would be something Lol!
but not likely...... me 200% maybe 1min or a few sec's longer if l'm fresh, then pull over throw up and go home to throw up again 
l am not an AWC phenomenom


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## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

From your description it sounds like you stayed on the front a little too long and didn't have the reserves to get back into the bunch. 




As far as training goes, you might want to look into doing some short hard intervals - sprint hard for 30 seconds, then recover for 45 seconds, sprints for 30 seconds, then recover.....repeat. This will hopefully train your heart and legs to adapt to sudden hard efforts and be able to recover quickly. When you start to feel comfortable, reduce the recovery time by 5sec.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

I target 120% for 5min intervals. My 60s power is about 220% of my FTP, so I aim to do repeats around 200%.

200% is high for 2-3 minutes. Looking at my previous 2min workouts (3 is a little too long for anaerobic, and a little too short for quality VO2), I am closer to 185% of my FTP.

hth


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## JMRR1 (Apr 8, 2009)

Sounds to be like you need to do more base k's (miles)... long 3-5 hr low intesity rides.

This will help with your recovery which is where you seem to be struggling.

JMRR1


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I have a lot of base miles in and tons of medium Z2-3 intensity as well. 

Usually on a training ride I can go from 170HR back to 110 after an interval pretty quick. If I coast down a hill I might drop below 100 even. After I do a bunch I might not recover as much between them and be starting my next one around 130 or so.


Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'm planning on building some of this into my winter training this year since my season is coming to a close after this month.  sad..

Still plan on getting a lot of miles in unfortunately I'm not going to take a life come September when school starts. Between coaching swimming and work I'll be loaded down pretty good.


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

If you're thinking about winter, and limited time to ride, you should look up "sweet spot training"



ZoSoSwiM said:


> I have a lot of base miles in and tons of medium Z2-3 intensity as well.
> 
> Usually on a training ride I can go from 170HR back to 110 after an interval pretty quick. If I coast down a hill I might drop below 100 even. After I do a bunch I might not recover as much between them and be starting my next one around 130 or so.
> 
> ...


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

My sweet spot is pain 

I did 3x10min efforts last night at and just above VO2 max.. Hurt like a ***** but I recovered well between each set.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Update..

Last week I did 5 days in a row of hard workouts.. Varied it between a number of different effort types. Took Sunday off and then rode recovery Monday. Last night I did a group ride and tested my legs a few times and I was happy to feel amazingly fresh. Its hard to believe that 1 week of really hard workouts followed by good recovery can have such an impact. Last nights ride I felt like I was saving a lot more energy than usual. Reviewing post ride I see that my wattage was up and my heart rate was down. Pretty happy with that!


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## IKnowYouRider (Jul 1, 2003)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> My sweet spot is pain
> 
> I did 3x10min efforts last night at and just above VO2 max.. Hurt like a ***** but I recovered well between each set.


if you can do 3x10min you aren't at VO2 max (power I'm assuming)...

wayne


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

How so? 10 minutes at the highest sustainable power/heart rate is above what I normally hold for longer periods. So would it be safe to assume I'm over VO2?


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