# Rear clearance challenges on my Supersix Evo



## vtsteevo (Nov 12, 2015)

I ride a CAAD10 with Pacenti SL23s and Conti 25mm tires - lots of clearance.

Just got a Supersix Evo (54cm), which came with Shimano RS81 (20.8 external width), and Schwalbe 1 (25mm tires). There is barely any clearance, and it rubs when out of saddle.

After being so spoiled by my CAAD10 set up, I don't know what to do. I tried Rubino Vittoria 25s, and they are a little bit narrower, and seem to work, but if I ever pop a spoke, I am walking home.

Anyone in the same boat? I am considering a new wheelset, but not sure what to go with since I'd like to 25mm tires, but have clearance issues. What would you guys recommend? The final width, with tire should not exceed 25mm.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

I owned a SuperSix EVO HiMod (2014) with the same clearance issue. I couldn't run 25mm tires. It's a known factor that has been discussed prior.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

oh cmon put on 23mm tires. You ain't gonna miss much. Difference between 23c vs 25c tires are minimal at best. And ignore internt subject claims that 25c ride like a magic carpet (you'd need to go to at least 28c for this claim to be anywhere credible).


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

Truthfully I'm surprised....I owned an Evo for 3-4 seasons and ran 25mm Michelin Pro4s on Ksyrium Elites for training and 25mm Continental Tubulars on Wide HED Stinger rims for racing with no clearance problems at all?


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## vtsteevo (Nov 12, 2015)

What size frame?



twiggy said:


> Truthfully I'm surprised....I owned an Evo for 3-4 seasons and ran 25mm Michelin Pro4s on Ksyrium Elites for training and 25mm Continental Tubulars on Wide HED Stinger rims for racing with no clearance problems at all?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> oh cmon put on 23mm tires. You ain't gonna miss much. Difference between 23c vs 25c tires are minimal at best. *And ignore internt subject claims that 25c ride like a magic carpet *(you'd need to go to at least 28c for this claim to be anywhere credible).


So what do you suppose the motives are for all those people who log on to the internet just to lie about 25mm tires feeling smoother than 23mm tires?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> So what do you suppose the motives are for all those people who log on to the internet *just to lie about 25mm tires feeling smoother than 23mm tires?*


_Lie_ about 25mm being smoother than 23mm tires? 

That's bit of hyperbole, wouldn't you say?

23mm tires inflated correctly can be very comfortable compared to 25mm tires. One needn't get hung up on 25mm tires being the only size that can provide a smooth ride.


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## loxx0050 (Jul 26, 2013)

I also have a 2014 Supersix EVO 54cm frame and have rubbing issues with Continental 25mm tires too and this is with 23mm wide rims. Not that I was stuck on only using 25mm but was trying to avoid buying another set of tires if possible. 

In the end I bit the bullet and bought another pair of 23c tires for the EVO. I recall seeing in the Felt forums that one of the lead designers recommended 4mm of clearance for tires with the AR model frame. But seems like good advice for pretty much any bike.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

loxx0050 said:


> I also have a 2014 Supersix EVO 54cm frame and have rubbing issues with Continental 25mm tires too


Mine was also a 54cm and Continental 25mm tires.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

tvad said:


> _Lie_ about 25mm being smoother than 23mm tires?
> 
> That's bit of hyperbole, wouldn't you say?
> 
> 23mm tires inflated correctly can be very comfortable compared to 25mm tires. One needn't get hung up on 25mm tires being the only size that can provide a smooth ride.


Your claim that 23mm tires can be very comfortable is not credible and should be ignored. How do you interpret that statement? That I'm accusing you of telling the truth? Probably not and the opposite of telling the truth is?

Call it hyperbole if you'd like, I don't care. But saying a statement is not credible and should be ignored isn't how I'd refer to someone I thought was being truthful so I interpret his comment as saying people are lying, yes. Seems like an odd thing to BS about and I can't think of a motive so I'm curious why he thinks people would bother saying that about their experience when apparently it's not true.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

deleted. not worth furthering the debate...


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

vtsteevo said:


> I ride a CAAD10 with Pacenti SL23s and Conti 25mm tires - lots of clearance.
> 
> Just got a Supersix Evo (54cm), which came with Shimano RS81 (20.8 external width), and Schwalbe 1 (25mm tires). There is barely any clearance, and it rubs when out of saddle.
> 
> ...


Sell the frame.

What a bunch of idiots. Congratulations to all the idiots working for Cannondale: everyone these days rides on 25 or 28 mm tyres and the prodigies from Cannondale come out with a frame barely accepting 23 mm tyres.

It is simply mind blowing.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Your claim that 23mm tires can be very comfortable is not credible and should be ignored. How do you interpret that statement? That I'm accusing you of telling the truth? Probably not and the opposite of telling the truth is?
> 
> Call it hyperbole if you'd like, I don't care. But saying a statement is not credible and should be ignored isn't how I'd refer to someone I thought was being truthful so I interpret his comment as saying people are lying, yes. Seems like an odd thing to BS about and I can't think of a motive so I'm curious why he thinks people would bother saying that about their experience when apparently it's not true.


Of course it's rubbish: a 23 mm tyre can never replace a 25 mm tyre especially not on pot hole littered roads. 

Maybe tvad lives and rides in cuculand.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

On narrow rims like the OP has (19mm external), I run 23mm tires.

On wider rims like the newest carbon ones (27mm external) I run 25mm tires.

I run the same pressures on both.

I don't notice any difference at all in comfort, not at all.

The roads I ride on are anything but smooth.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> On narrow rims like the OP has (19mm external), I run 23mm tires.
> 
> On wider rims like the newest carbon ones (27mm external) I run 25mm tires.
> 
> ...


Kind of irrelevant. Not apples to apples. The whole point of wider rims and bigger tires (with regard to ride quality) is the ability to use less PSI. In my experience using the same tire at the same PSI on wide vs traditional the wide rim will result in a more harsh ride on the wide rims. I'm not at all surprised by your results. The benefits of wider tires and rimes is being cancelled out by using the same PSI. I wouldn't be surprised if the 25mms actually felt worse for that matter with your specific comparison.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the 25mms actually felt worse for that matter with your specific comparison.


A lot still depends on the tyre and tpi count. But your observation will work for the same tyre brand with different tyre size. 

However, my rule of thumb: I use 1 bar less pressure on the wider tyre (e.g. 6 bar on 25 mm tyres and 7 bar on 23 mm tyres). Often I am too lazy to keep up with my tyre pressure regime though.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

dracula said:


> Of course it's rubbish: *a 23 mm tyre can never replace a 25 mm tyre especially not on pot hole littered roads. *
> 
> Maybe tvad lives and rides in cuculand.


That statement may be true. 

I live in Los Angeles. Some pretty awful roads around here. I avoid potholes, however.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> The whole point of wider rims and bigger tires (with regard to ride quality) is the ability to use less PSI. In my experience using the same tire at the same PSI on wide vs traditional the wide rim will result in a more harsh ride on the wide rims.


This is absolutely true.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

tvad said:


> That statement may be true.
> 
> I live in Los Angeles. Some pretty awful roads around here. I avoid potholes, however.


In terms of Los Angeles weather you are really in cuculand mate compared to the UK


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

dracula said:


> In terms of Los Angeles weather you are really in cuculand mate compared to the UK


Probably so. I don't know what cuculand means.

We have very nice weather. That's for sure. Until the next earthquake...after which we will have massive potholes.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Your claim that 23mm tires can be very comfortable is not credible ...


My tubeless 23mm tires on my HED Ardennes + rims are indeed very comfortable and I weigh in at 200+ lbs. 

If run at the same pressure and same rider, 23mm tires will offer more cushion than a 25 as the sidewall will deflect more. Research tire drop and think about it a bit.

Now for tubed tires, I prefer 25's as I find I can run them at pressures that are more comfortable, but that does not mean that does not mean that 23's cannot be comfortable.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Restricting yourself to a particular rim and/or tire just to get clearance for a certain tire width is a very sad situation.

I want flexibility in my equipment choices, and that includes tire width.

Carbon and aluminum frames, with their larger tube diameters, reduce clearances. You either have to be a more diligent shopper or just buy a steel frame.

If you really want the flexibility to ride ANY 25mm tire with ANY rim, find another frame. It's unfortunate, expensive, but probably the best solution.

Personally, I'd observe what the pros are riding in Paris-Roubaix and after confirming what tire width they used, select from the choices available.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> So what do you suppose the motives are for all those people who log on to the internet just to lie about 25mm tires feeling smoother than 23mm tires?


lie? oh brother.
No, not lie, but the internet, is ya know, is known for huge exaggeration. Nobody likes to try something new, especially something that they want to believe in, something that have been told to them is "better", and not go online to rave about it. Sort of like buying a new carbon frame and gotta go online to give a review saying "new frame is definitely positively stiffer and more compliant". Yadada.The placebo effect is huge on RBR, and in road cycling in general. But maybe I just have a steel butt.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

vtsteevo said:


> What size frame?


Mine was a 54cm.... Odd that I didn't have any problems but everyone else seems to have issues  I have no idea how mine worked; and I've sold it since so I can't even explain I send a pic or anything now!...sorry...not much help!


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> lie? oh brother.
> No, not lie, but the internet, is ya know, is known for huge exaggeration. Nobody likes to try something new, especially something that they want to believe in, something that have been told to them is "better", and not go online to rave about it. Sort of like buying a new carbon frame and gotta go online to give a review saying "new frame is definitely positively stiffer and more compliant". Yadada.The placebo effect is huge on RBR, and in road cycling in general. But maybe I just have a steel butt.


One observation: Here in Scotland (UK) I do not see many riding 25 mm road tyres. I am not talking about racers rather the overweight middle aged man.

I often wonder is there a 25 mm tyre revolution outside of newsgroups.

I am probably the only one here riding 25 mm tyres. However, I see fatter tyres on road bikes used for cummuting.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Peter P. said:


> Restricting yourself to a particular rim and/or tire just to get clearance for a certain tire width is a very sad situation.
> 
> I want flexibility in my equipment choices, and that includes tire width.
> 
> ...


A very good post.

It would cost the manufacturer nothing to produce frames which actually could be used by the common man from the street.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

dracula said:


> It would cost the manufacturer nothing to produce frames which actually could be used by the common man from the street.


Elite racing bikes are specifically designed to address a niche which the "common man from the street" looking for casual/recreational riding has no business with. There are quite a few bikes made within the "Road" production line of almost all of the major mass producers that appropriately address a variety of diverse cycling needs 
IOW, do not buy a Porsche 911 Turbo for its performance and then complain for not having enough room in it to fit the family luggage.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

vtsteevo said:


> I ride a CAAD10 with Pacenti SL23s and Conti 25mm tires - lots of clearance.
> 
> Just got a Supersix Evo (54cm), which came with Shimano RS81 (20.8 external width), and Schwalbe 1 (25mm tires). There is barely any clearance, and it rubs when out of saddle.
> 
> ...


It's a pretty common issue on the EVO. It's a pretty narrow frame.

Is the rubbing on one side or both? Check that your wheel is centered in the stays. There's been an issue with a lot of people having off center stays. A friend of mine got his frame warrantied and replace because of this.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> lie? oh brother.
> No, not lie, but the internet, is ya know, is known for huge exaggeration. Nobody likes to try something new, especially something that they want to believe in, something that have been told to them is "better", and not go online to rave about it. Sort of like buying a new carbon frame and gotta go online to give a review saying "new frame is definitely positively stiffer and more compliant". Yadada.The placebo effect is huge on RBR, and in road cycling in general. But maybe I just have a steel butt.


It's been proven (over and over) wider tires are smoother and faster. It's a fact whether you acknowledge it or not. This is why pretty much every Pro has switched to wider tires. 

25 vs. 23 | Is Wider Really Faster? | Competitive Cyclist
In the last five years, all of our old theories have been proven wrong. Wider tires and tubulars are now the norm on almost all professional team bikes, including time trial bikes. Not only do wider tires roll faster, but they’re also more resilient, comfortable, and aerodynamic when paired with the right rim.​Where the rubber meets the road: What makes cycling tires fast? - VeloNews.com
Wider tires are faster

Tire rolling resistance comes from internal friction within materials (energy loss due to hysteresis) and small bumps that lift the bike and rider.

When it comes to internal friction, wider tires have shorter contact patches and, thus, less deflection. If pressure is the same, the area of the contact patch must be the same to support the same load. (Since both load and pounds per square inch remain constant, the area in contact with the road will also be the same.) But a wider, shorter contact patch will have less vertical depth of deflection, So internal friction and hysteresis loss will be lower.

If a wider tire is constructed of the same materials in the same thicknesses as a narrower one, it will often roll faster on a rough surface, despite being heavier. This is due to both lower internal friction and the fact that the wider tire will better absorb imperfections in the road, thus lifting the bike and rider slightly less on each little impact.​

It's funny when people so vehemently cling to the 23 mythology in the face of mounds of evidence showing how wrong they are.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> lie? oh brother.
> No, not lie, but the internet, is ya know, is known for huge exaggeration. Nobody likes to try something new, especially something that they want to believe in, something that have been told to them is "better", and not go online to rave about it. Sort of like buying a new carbon frame and gotta go online to give a review saying "new frame is definitely positively stiffer and more compliant". Yadada.*The placebo effect is huge on RBR, and in road cycling in general*. But maybe I just have a steel butt.


alright, fair enough. Ironically though dogmatism is another trait very common to road cycling and the one I think might be most in play on the 23 vs 25 tire question. But whatever use what you want. I don't think because you like something that should mean everyone else should be ignored though.


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## vtsteevo (Nov 12, 2015)

I thought it was off slightly, but if I apply pressure on the rim while clamping down the skewer, its even, and stays even. My buddy says its 1 mm off, but I can't tell.....

Yes, pretty lame of Cdale. I bought the bike second hand on ebay. I was going to return it within the first week, but decided to keep it. I personally could not tell a comfort difference going from Alumn CAAD10 with 23mm rims/25mm tire to the Carbon Evo with 20mm rims/23mm tires. I think the frame soaks up more, so its a wash for me. I still run the rear at 90 PSI and haven't had issues. 

The only thing that truly driving me nuts is how limited I am in upgrading wheels.


Also, for what its worth, when I upgraded my stock CAAD10 wheels to wider rims/tires and dropped PSI to 90, it was a night/day difference in ride quality. 



tlg said:


> It's a pretty common issue on the EVO. It's a pretty narrow frame.
> 
> Is the rubbing on one side or both? Check that your wheel is centered in the stays. There's been an issue with a lot of people having off center stays. A friend of mine got his frame warrantied and replace because of this.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Tires vary in size between brands and models. Continental 23's tend to run very big. So, in terms of finding a tire that fits it may be that you need a small 25 or a large 23. Also, a larger tire has a larger diameter and will bring the side of the tire closer to the frame. You may want to try the wider rim with a good size 23mm tire. 

How the tires feels when it rolls is determined by many factors including size, type of tire (flat protection can add stiffness), threads per inch (this is measured differently based on the company), tire compound, and air pressure. 

A different wheel will also make a difference in the ride. 

One of the reasons to choose a larger tires is to allow for lower pressure without an increase in the risk of pinch flats. Given the same tire, lower pressure will result in better small bump compliance.

So, for the best ride choose the biggest tire you can fit in your frame based on the rim you are using. Lower the pressure as much as you can without getting pinch flats (this is tough to determine). But also make sure the tire is considered a supple tire with a good amount of threads per inch in the casing and minimal to no flat protection.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

On my rear wheel I run Michelin Lithion 2s "23mm" on a BHS C22w/Kinlin XR22T rim. It's ~18.5mm internal, 24mm external. The Lithion 2s measure 26mm wide (measured with a digital caliper) on this setup. This fits my 2013 SuperSix EVO HM frame, but barely. I tried a 25mm Ritchey tire (I think it measured over 28mm wide on that rim) and it would rub on one side during one part of the wheel rotation.

My front wheel is a Ritchey Zeta II. I'm not sure of the exact measurements but I think the external width is somewhere around 21mm. I run Ritchey's 25mm tire on this and the clearance is fine. It also measures 26mm using a digital caliper.

I do get the little rubbing of the little extrusions from the tire, but I don't think it's a big issue.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

I agree that SuperSixes should at least be able to clear 25mm tires on wider rims and it's a shame they don't.

Re: 23mm vs 25mm

I use 23mm Conti GP 4000 S IIs on a 19mm/27mm ID/OD rim and the tire is almost exactly the same width as the rim at its widest point. That's plenty cushy for me and at the sweetspot in terms of aero vs rolling resistance.

e: Looks like the Black edition comes with 25.5mm wide Enve SES 4.5 tubular rims in the rear. I'm guessing that's basically the limit and those rims flex a bit less than RS81s...


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

I have a 2014 supersix evo and I've been running Zipp 404s with Conti 25s since I got the bike. It's true the clearance is tight - it's also true that I have two wear spots in the paint of the chain stays - a result of the rear wheel going badly out of true and rubbing during a ride.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> It's been proven (over and over) wider tires are smoother and faster. It's a fact whether you acknowledge it or not. This is why pretty much every Pro has switched to wider tires.
> 
> 25 vs. 23 | Is Wider Really Faster? | Competitive CyclistIn the last five years, all of our old theories have been proven wrong. Wider tires and tubulars are now the norm on almost all professional team bikes, including time trial bikes. Not only do wider tires roll faster, but they’re also more resilient, comfortable, and aerodynamic when paired with the right rim.​Where the rubber meets the road: What makes cycling tires fast? - VeloNews.comWider tires are faster
> 
> ...


Hmm fair enough, and thanks you for the paraphrase effort. But let's look at this tire debate in a bigger picture, shall we.

1. The "proven science" thusfar about this boils down to some magazine doing some tire test. Not what I call scientific rigor. But ok, it's some loose data. I'll give it some credit, but will also keep in mind that's it's also not peer reviewed science.

2. The testing conditions under which these tires are tested, is not realworld. So this brings into question the degree of translation of the data. And without peer review feedback, well, we tend to accept such data as gospels? Again, I'll give the credit to the magazines for running such tests, but gospels it ain't.

3. Rolling resistance difference between a 23 vs 25 tire is probably one of the weaker resistant forces out there a cyclist should worry about. The majority will be from the wind, which plays hand in hand with body positioning. But, I get it, a watt saved is a a watt saved, so rolling resistant counts too. But honestly, for 99% of the cycling public, I wonder if they think:

"oh man i'm only going at 17 mph when I could have gone 17.05 mph if my darn bike was able to fit a 25mm tire"

they don't think about it, but yet on RBR, we analyze it like it was gospel that has great bearing in how much faster we can roll if we were able to fit a wider tire.

4. then there is the issue of control. Rolling resistance is only a small part of tire performance (especially the resistance discrepancy is sooo little compared to other resistant forces.) There is also the issue of tire handling, how it behaves under hard-braking, how it sticks to corner, how it transition from going straight to leaning, how it handles in the wet, etc.. All these factors that I just raised up are probably more important than rolling resistance. 

For example, Continental GP has excellent rolling resistance (and now so do Specialized Turbos, since Specialized hired away 2 key German engineers from Continental). However, Conti GP under average when it comes to braking and cornering. The rubber compound that allows it good rolling, sucks when under braking and turning. The Mich Pro 4, on the other hand, has a higher rolling resistance, but it handles superbly under braking and tips into corner with ease. Generally speaking, if a rubber compound gives good rolling resistance, then it'll tend to give up some performance in other areas such as corner grip or braking. That's just how most tires are. It's always a tradeoff. So the REAL question should be asked is, what is your priority in a tire? If you do a straightline timetrial without much braking or hard cornering, then go for the tire with the least rolling resistance. If you ride the fast mountain descents, then you should think about other performance areas such as braking and corner grip.

Michelin is the premier tire company. They know more about rubber compound than anyone in the business. They hold more patents on rubber pretty much anything that as to do with tire than anyone. Specialized and their 2 recently hired engineers from Conti cannot even be mentioned in the same league with Michelin when it comes to understanding tires. Michelin could have easily developed a tire with a much lower resistance rubber compound, but they chose not to because in their mind, tire performance is more than just rolling resistance. Sadly, most cyclists do not think of this when they think about tire performance. Most cyclists tend to focus on rolling resistance and comfort, which is pretty damn limited way to think about a tire.

5. Now from all the magazine tests that I'm aware, for a 25mm tire to roll faster than a 23, then the 25mm also has to be at the same pressure as a 23mm. And when the 25mm tire is lowered in pressure, then the rolling advantage is gone! Well, most riders when they get a 25, they are getting it so they can lower the pressure for the comfort factor. Well guess what, there goes any rolling advantage. Most people don't seem to mention this crucial thing when debating 23 vs 25.

And yes the pros ride wider tires, but too ride them at lowered pressure for the comfort thing. Guys running wide tires at Paris-Roubaix run them at 60-70 psi. This is pretty damn low compared to what they would run on the road. They would never run 60 psi in a non-cobbled road race. So yes pros ride wide tires, but they ride them at lowered pressure for comfort, not because a wider tire roll faster.

I've been rambling a tad. But to conclude, while i don't deny the possible slight advantage of a wider tire in rolling (provide the pressure just as high as a smaller tire), there is much more to tire performance than rolling resistance. If tire performance is just rolling resistance, and if the magazine data is as good as it sound (which I doubt), then every pro, even track sprint pros, will probably be running 32mm or 40mm tires. But they don't.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Thing is, 25mm tubulars on a 25mm tubular rim are probably the same volume as most 23mm clinchers on a 25mm wide clincher rim. From what I can tell 25mm Schwalbe Ones on RS81s are at least 26mm wide, and those are very narrow rims by our recent standards.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

dracula said:


> One observation: Here in Scotland (UK) I do not see many riding 25 mm road tyres. I am not talking about racers rather the overweight middle aged man.
> 
> I often wonder is there a 25 mm tyre revolution outside of newsgroups.
> 
> I am probably the only one here riding 25 mm tyres. However, I see fatter tyres on road bikes used for cummuting.


Here in Socal (southern California), the majority of people I see are still riding 23mm. There are some riding 25mm, but these are still in the minority by a wide margin, but I do see more folks going to 25mm, but it's a slow adoption.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ceugene said:


> Thing is, 25mm tubulars on a 25mm tubular rim are probably the same volume as most 23mm clinchers on a 25mm wide clincher rim. From what I can tell 25mm Schwalbe Ones on RS81s are at least 26mm wide, and those are very narrow rims by our recent standards.


the width of the rim has a great effect on the eventual width of the tire. On my Hed Ardennes Plus rim (25mm wide), a Conti GP4000 23mm tire balloons to almost 27mm wide (actual measurement 26.81mm).


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> Here in Socal (southern California), the majority of people I see are still riding 23mm. There are some riding 25mm, but these are still in the minority by a wide margin, but I do see more folks going to 25mm, but it's a slow adoption.


I feel like whether 25c is popular in any given region is driven a lot by what the LBS decide to stock. I'd say in the SFBA it's about 50/50 already and 25c/28c are only going to get more popular. This is true of bike shops at any level here from REI to Performance to local mom&pops.

For now I'm sticking to 23c clinchers because I do have wide rims and they profile more like 26-27c tires on narrow rims.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ceugene said:


> I feel like whether 25c is popular in any given region is driven a lot by what the LBS decide to stock. I'd say in the SFBA it's about 50/50 already and 25c/28c are only going to get more popular. This is true of bike shops at any level here from REI to Performance to local mom&pops.
> 
> For now I'm sticking to 23c clinchers because I do have wide rims and they profile more like 26-27c tires on narrow rims.


True that. Btw, SFBA stands for SF bay area? I have a cousin in Sausolito just getting into road cycling. Apparently she is getting a cx bike because she says a lot of folks up there are riding 90% pavement with like 10% dirt paths. She wanted a "wide and comfy" tire/wheel setup, so I told her to go get a 28c tire, then she worries if it'll slow her down too much on the pavement. we went back and forth about tire and wheel width, then hehe I finally got frustrated and told her, well damn girl, just go get tires and ride and stop worrying about all this debate between tires because at the end of the day you ain't gonna feel a thing of difference in speed because you'll be drafting the pepole you ride with anyway.

Now me personally I've tried a Secteur 28 tire (28mm wide) on the Ardennes Plus wheel (25mm rim), and this combo is truely massive to my eyes. And on the paved road, it sucks, handles like spaghetti in corners. So 25c is the max I'll ever use for pavement. But as soon as I've used up my 25c stock of tires, I'm going back to 23c. At this point, my butt has turned into steel, and comfort is a non issue for me. But a 23c tire on a 23mm or 25mm rim is the perfect combination for me when it comes to handling feel on pavement. Perfect in the sense that it feels firm and not squishy around corners.

The problem with tires for 2-wheel vehicle (be it a bicycle or motorcycle) is that the sidewall can't constructed to act like suspension like you could do to a tire that goes on 4-wheel vehicle. Two-wheel vehicles will need the sidewall to behave in a way that cornering is good, and this is much more crucial to a 2wheel than to a 4wheel. So when people buy bigger more volumnous tires and in conjunction run them at lowered pressure, well the handling in corners will be like rolling on balloons, kinda like riding offroad trucks with their offroad tires on pavement (i'm exaggerating a bit), feeling is very vague.

my philosophy for buying tire is i want a tire that will handle the most difficult situation that I plan to encounter on a ride, and for me that is usually fast cornering. Rolling resistance and comfort (I have butt of steel) means very little to me if I can't carve a corner they I expect to be carving. It's my personal experience that to get the best overall performance in a bicycle rim/tire combo, then you should choose a tire with width such that when it is mounted on the rim, the tire width is right at or a hair wider than the rim. This will give a solid feel in corner. A tire that balloons out too much from the rim will give a vague feeling around corner and under hard braking.

btw, on my motorcycle, the front and rear tires have different carcass profile and rubber compound. No motorcycle use the same tire for front and rear. I'm thinking, why do bicycle use the same tires for front and rear? Front and rear are tasked to do different things, but why are the tires the same? Hmm, so now i'm thinking of running 23c up front and 25c at the rear for my bicycles too. Unfortunately, wheelset manufacturers haven't made rims with 23mm/25mm front/rear yet (not in the affordable, under $2000, wheelset range that I'm aware of)


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Sausalito is nice. She'll have access to nice mountain roads, shoreline bike paths and as you said, various kinds of trails, many of which are suited to CX or "gravel" bikes. I ride a Swiss Cross Disc set-up like a road bike for this purpose but I did have a pretty nasty spill recently with 28mm Conti Gator Hardshells while riding on pavement. A combination of target fixation and tires known more for durability rather than grip.

CX bikes with road gearing/tires are popular here because they existed as disc brake compatible frames before 'any-road' style bikes became a marketing term. The combination of very steep hills and foggy/damp mornings makes disc brakes a nice feature to have.


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## loxx0050 (Jul 26, 2013)

tlg said:


> It's a pretty common issue on the EVO. It's a pretty narrow frame.
> 
> Is the rubbing on one side or both? Check that your wheel is centered in the stays. There's been an issue with a lot of people having off center stays. A friend of mine got his frame warrantied and replace because of this.


I forgot about all those complaints. Now that I think of it, my frame's chainstay might also not be be perfectly centered. Before I put on my rear wheel I upgraded the hub to 11s and re-dished it (DT Swiss Hub so it was a simple cassette body swap). It was pretty close to on the nuts (less than 0.5mm difference in dish) but with a 25mm tire it still rubbed on the left/non-drive side. So I ended up redishing to center the rim in my chainstay for the EVO frame. Can't say it is exactly centered anymore like it is supposed to be normally.

In the end like I stated before I went back to 23mm and called it a day. Clearance is much better and no more rubbing when pedaling standing or sprinting (or my weak attempts trying to).


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## RoadCube (Nov 22, 2006)

I hear you about tight clearances. My 2007 Lemond Buenos Aires fits me great but it is tight with a 25 in the rear around the rear brake seat stay bridge. I may try a Continental GP4000(profile looks like it will be a bit smaller on my rim) 25.
RC


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