# Are Carbon Wheels Necessary to Reach Pro 1?



## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

I just want to know whether or not it's possible to progress to Pro 1 aka. win a lot of races without carbon wheels. I'm currently Pro 3 and we frequently hit 30-35mph because the courses are always very flat. As long as breakaways don't form, I'm able to contend for the sprint through careful positioning, but I noticed that closing gaps/ matching attacks is a lot more difficult at these speeds. It's just starting to get a little intimidating being one of the only riders on aluminum wheels.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Absolutely! Need to buy the most expensive wheel set in order to reach pro 1. If you can't afford it, oh well.... life sucks.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Legs will separate you into a select group; wheels may possibly help you place higher within that group.
Smart money would bet on legs.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

You are pro 3 with no sponsors?


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok. I'll bite.

I have been fortunate enough to be a cat 1 for a long time and also know a little about wheels.

You absolutely do not need carbon wheels to get to cat 1. The best thing you can do is pick your parents right. Somebody with genetic potential can reach cat 1 in a matter of a year or two without k owing much or having good equipment. 

I was not blessed with that kind of genetic potential but was decent. Very hard work is the other thing that will get you there. A combination of the two gets you to pro level.

Now, wheels do come into play. There is a very small percentage difference between a lot of wins and even being out of the top 10. It may not be the wheels in one instance that win a race, but the combination of dozens of efforts spread across the course of hours.

I have been on alloy wheels and lost 100 mile or more races by an inch or two. Carbon wheels could have helped in those cases to get that extra inch.

As it stands, if your goal is just to be a cat 1, you don't need the wheels. I could race any wheelset and be just fine in pretty much any pro 1,2 field. But if you are in a situation where it's coming down to inches between a win and loss that is where they definitely have a place.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

^^ Good answer. I've never made it to Cat 1 on the road (I was a domestic pro in another sport, cycling turned serious relatively late having been a hobby for a long time), but I've seen plenty of guys with a lot of talent and/or a penchant for training make it to Cat 2 almost by accident, then they start paying attention and make it to Cat 1. Bad equipment can hamper that progression, but excellent equipment isn't necessary nor is carbon (excellent equipment and carbon are not mutually inclusive - some formidable domestic teams use alloy-rimmed wheels).

What good carbon wheels do is allow you to be a slightly better you. Me with great carbon wheels versus an identical me with great alloy wheels, carbon wheel me has an advantage. Joe Dombrowski versus me (I "got" to race him several times on his sprint to the pros) - no equipment can begin to cover that gap. And I have no recollection of what equipment Joe used as an amateur - he was pretty well supported by Haymarket Bicycles so it was probably quite good - but any competent wheels would have allowed him to be the outlier he is. 

I made it to Cat 1 in mountain biking before I'd ever ridden a carbon mtb wheel, and I still don't ride them although I have.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> I just want to know whether or not it's possible to progress to Pro 1 aka. win a lot of races without carbon wheels. I'm currently Pro 3 and we frequently hit 30-35mph because the courses are always very flat. As long as breakaways don't form, I'm able to contend for the sprint through careful positioning, but I noticed that closing gaps/ matching attacks is a lot more difficult at these speeds. It's just starting to get a little intimidating being one of the only riders on aluminum wheels.


Work and dedication is all you need. Oh, you also need a bike...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> I just want to know whether or not it's possible to progress to Pro 1 aka. win a lot of races without carbon wheels. *I'm currently Pro 3* and we frequently hit 30-35mph because the courses are always very flat. As long as breakaways don't form, I'm able to contend for the sprint through careful positioning, but I noticed that closing gaps/ matching attacks is a lot more difficult at these speeds. It's just starting to get a little intimidating being one of the only riders on aluminum wheels.


I've had a road license since '83 and I've never heard of this category. Want to explain what 'Pro 3' is? A weekend-warrior that takes his racing wayyyyyyy too seriously? A guy that has a bunch of Strava KOM's?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

You don't need carbon wheels, but they make your bike look exceptionally cool.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

If you don't have deep carbon wheels, you may still win, but the other racers will laugh at you


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

coachboyd said:


> The best thing you can do is pick your parents right.


That's the best answer to any question I've read in a long time.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Best answer to this question I've ever seen (forget where):

By the time you _need_ carbon wheels, someone will give them to you.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dgaddis1 said:


> Best answer to this question I've ever seen (forget where):
> 
> By the time you _need_ carbon wheels, someone will give them to you.


^^^^This. By far.


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## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

coachboyd said:


> Ok. I'll bite.
> 
> I have been fortunate enough to be a cat 1 for a long time and also know a little about wheels.
> 
> ...


My parents grew up in poverty, so I don't know what my genetic potential is with regards to family history of athletic ability. I haven't tested my VO2max or LT in years, but they were only at the elite average. The only area where I was far above the elite average was balance. Based on deduction, this led me to think that cycling economy is the main reason why I've been able to perform well, and it's also the reason why bike fit heavily affects my performance. It also helps that I earned a degree in Kinesiology from a reputable school on exercise science, so I have a lot of knowledge about training, bike fitting and sports nutrition. I try to maximize every angle possible.

It has come down to inches a few times, and usually it's because key events didn't unfold as predicted. I've always heard how carbon wheels help significantly after 20mph, and since we often hit above 30mph because the courses are dead flat, I wasn't sure if it was going to eventually hold me back, especially since my body weight is more of a climber (~140 pounds).

It's relieving to hear that it has been done before. As it was mentioned, carbon wheels make a bike appear faster, and when I'm in a field of riders using carbon, it gets intimidating real fast. While I don't foresee any problems in Cat 3, I always like being proactive to make sure I'm prepared just in case I get forced to upgrade again. I'm more worried about competing against the Pro 1 & 2's mainly because I don't know what to expect.

I'm sponsored by Velocity Wheels and train/race on their A23 Pro Build wheelset. This is the only aluminum wheelset I trust to carry me to Pro 1. The reason why I started this thread was because after discussing my future plans, they even recommended to get a deep carbon wheelset. Velocity isn't in the carbon market, so they didn't see any conflict advising this. I absolutely can't afford carbon wheels which is why I was looking for advice very early. The only way I can get a carbon wheelset is by looking for sponsors, and finding quality sponsors takes a lot of time. Now that I know it's possible to be competitive without carbon wheels, I can stop trying to find sponsors to provide me with a carbon wheelset.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I have a hard time believing you're really asking this sincerely. You don't seem to know the right names of your categories - a cat 3 is not a pro 3. If you're asking if you can get the points you need to upgrade from a 3 to a 2 without carbon wheels, then the answer is obviously yes. And if you have reached your genetic potential as a cat 3, then 1) you're probably the first person in history to do so, and 2) it's going to take a lot more than carbon wheels to make you competitive. 



ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> My parents grew up in poverty, so I don't know what my genetic potential is with regards to family history of athletic ability. I haven't tested my VO2max or LT in years, but they were only at the elite average. The only area where I was far above the elite average was balance. Based on deduction, this led me to think that cycling economy is the main reason why I've been able to perform well, and it's also the reason why bike fit heavily affects my performance. It also helps that I earned a degree in Kinesiology from a reputable school on exercise science, so I have a lot of knowledge about training, bike fitting and sports nutrition. I try to maximize every angle possible.
> 
> It has come down to inches a few times, and usually it's because key events didn't unfold as predicted. I've always heard how carbon wheels help significantly after 20mph, and since we often hit above 30mph because the courses are dead flat, I wasn't sure if it was going to eventually hold me back, especially since my body weight is more of a climber (~140 pounds).
> 
> ...


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Eddy Merckx didn't even have a carbon bike and was faster than anyone on this forum. So no; you don't need carbon wheels. . Or carbon bike. . or a power-meter. .


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> Eddy Merckx didn't even have a carbon bike and was faster than anyone on this forum. So no; you don't need carbon wheels. . Or carbon bike. . or a power-meter. .


True, and he didn't have more than ten gears (total) for much of his racing career either. Come to think of it, I was much faster with a 5-spd freewheel than with a 10-spd cassette. But then I was 30-40 years younger too.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Notvintage said:


> Eddy Merckx didn't even have a carbon bike and was faster than anyone on this forum. So no; you don't need carbon wheels. . Or carbon bike. . or a power-meter. .


Eddy rode the most cutting edge gear a Pro could have in his era, and was know for attention to detail. Unless you were being ironic, then carry on. . .


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## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

stevesbike said:


> I have a hard time believing you're really asking this sincerely. You don't seem to know the right names of your categories - a cat 3 is not a pro 3. If you're asking if you can get the points you need to upgrade from a 3 to a 2 without carbon wheels, then the answer is obviously yes. And if you have reached your genetic potential as a cat 3, then 1) you're probably the first person in history to do so, and 2) it's going to take a lot more than carbon wheels to make you competitive.


My USACycling license says Cat 3, but whenever I register for races, I'm supposed to compete in the Pro 3 category. I assume then that once I'm a Cat 1 that I'll need to race in Pro 1. You can see how this can get confused. If you can provide me with information explaining the difference, that would be greatly appreciated.

You also misread my responses because I never said that I reached my genetic potential. When I was tested years ago, I was just average (elite average). I haven't been regularly tracking my physiological limits, so how could I know if I've hit my maximal potential? I also didn't say that I'm not competitive in the Pro 3 category. I'm only concerned about upgrading from 2 to 1. Many of the top riders I compete against ride tubular, deep carbon wheels. They have a clear weight and aerodynamic advantage over me. I needed to know whether I was at a serious handicap, but since earlier replies showed evidence of riders successfully competing in races without carbon, I am stopping my search for a sponsor to provide me with carbon wheels.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> My USACycling license says Cat 3, but whenever I register for races, I'm supposed to compete in the Pro 3 category. I assume then that once I'm a Cat 1 that I'll need to race in Pro 1. You can see how this can get confused. If you can provide me with information explaining the difference, that would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> You also misread my responses because I never said that I reached my genetic potential. When I was tested years ago, I was just average (elite average). I haven't been regularly tracking my physiological limits, so how could I know if I've hit my maximal potential? I also didn't say that I'm not competitive in the Pro 3 category. I'm only concerned about upgrading from 2 to 1. Many of the top riders I compete against ride tubular, deep carbon wheels. They have a clear weight and aerodynamic advantage over me. I needed to know whether I was at a serious handicap, but since earlier replies showed evidence of riders successfully competing in races without carbon, I am stopping my search for a sponsor to provide me with carbon wheels.


There's no such thing as a Pro 3 category. The USAC categories 5-1 are amateur categories. A pro license is it's own deal. If you're still in the 3's, I wouldn't worry about the equipment you'll need to upgrade to the 1s. The vast majority of riders never make it from the 2s to the 1s. But you'll have a harder time beating riders who have optimized their equipment (and position). They'll have 30+ free watts on you...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> There's no such thing as a Pro 3 category. The USAC categories 5-1 are amateur categories. A pro license is it's own deal. If you're still in the 3's, I wouldn't worry about the equipment you'll need to upgrade to the 1s. The vast majority of riders never make it from the 2s to the 1s. But you'll have a harder time beating riders who have optimized their equipment (and position). They'll have 30+ free watts on you...


+1 No such thing as 'Pro3'. You're either a number or you're 'Pro'. There is no combination of the two. If you're a 3 (OP) you should know this by now.


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## Kid Canada (Aug 17, 2012)

stevesbike said:


> They'll have 30+ free watts on you...


Where might one find these free watts they are giving away? I could use about 60.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

November Dave said:


> What good carbon wheels do is allow you to be a slightly better you.


The OP has Velocity A23s with I'm guessing round spokes. Could you give a good guess at the watts difference at 30mph between those and a set of Rails?


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

stevesbike said:


> I have a hard time believing you're really asking this sincerely. You don't seem to know the right names of your categories - a cat 3 is not a pro 3. If you're asking if you can get the points you need to upgrade from a 3 to a 2 without carbon wheels, then the answer is obviously yes. And if you have reached your genetic potential as a cat 3, then 1) you're probably the first person in history to do so, and 2) it's going to take a lot more than carbon wheels to make you competitive.


Thank you Steve, the OP seems to be completely confused. I can't imagine getting to Cat3 and not having talked to the other cyclists at the races.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mikerp said:


> Thank you Steve, the OP seems to be completely confused. I can't imagine getting to Cat3 and not having talked to the other cyclists at the races.


Yea I'm baffled how you get to Procat3, sponsored by a wheel company, and in the dark about the basics of cycling.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> Eddy rode the most cutting edge gear a Pro could have in his era, and was know for attention to detail. Unless you were being ironic, then carry on. . .


I kinda think he meant that Eddy, back in the day and on '60s & '70s equipment, would be faster than anyone on this forum today.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Kid Canada said:


> Where might one find these free watts they are giving away? I could use about 60.


-aero wheel vs. a standard oe
- aero frame vs. a round tube frame
-electronic shifting vs. mech (about 7 watts)
-aero helmet vs standard road helmet
-skinsuit vs. club-fit kit, shoe covers etc.
- aero profile bar vs. standard bar (like zipp sl-70 aero)


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> -electronic shifting vs. mech (about 7 watts)


That's interesting. Due to cabling? I assume it's compared against a mechanical bike with external cables. It's still more than I would expect. If you have a link to the study I'd like to see it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

ericm979 said:


> That's interesting. Due to cabling? I assume it's compared against a mechanical bike with external cables. It's still more than I would expect. If you have a link to the study I'd like to see it.


it was on the weight weenies forum (I think). SuperDave, who works for Felt, mentioned it as part of their decision decision for the ar frd being electronic only (weight to reinforce cable holes was another). He mentioned the 7 watt figure over the ar1, which uses down tube entry points (not sure how it would stack up to bikes that have top tube entry points.


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## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

stevesbike said:


> There's no such thing as a Pro 3 category. The USAC categories 5-1 are amateur categories. A pro license is it's own deal. If you're still in the 3's, I wouldn't worry about the equipment you'll need to upgrade to the 1s. The vast majority of riders never make it from the 2s to the 1s. But you'll have a harder time beating riders who have optimized their equipment (and position). They'll have 30+ free watts on you...


Thanks for clearing that up. It's surprising to know that the well-known Cat 1 teams here are just amateurs because they have the fitness to produce speeds just like the Pro teams. Based on my experience riding with them at group rides, it will definitely be hard to beat them. I'll have to take advantage of every tactic I know of. In Cat 5 through Cat 3, a lot of riders don't have a good aerodynamic position which is why I know I'll be fine with my current wheelset, but I noticed that the best Cat 2 and 1 riders can hold a very low position which means I will no longer have the aero position advantage. Instead, I'll be at a ~30 watt disadvantage anytime I'm at the front or trying to control a breakaway which often succeeds due to the wind/ high speeds. That's why I wanted to plan ahead by trying to find someone who actually reached Cat 1 without carbon wheels. I needed to know that it's possible.

Below is a link to one of the local races here. Notice how the last race says "Pro 1/2/3."

https://www.truesport.com/index.php/events/truesport_event/436

For all of the people trying to give me a hard time about being misinformed about the categories- I'm an individually sponsored Cat 3 because they saw potential in me, and I'm not going to let the few people here try to discredit me just because I was misinformed. To infer that I don't deserve a sponsor based largely on that is plain ridiculous. All I'm concerned about is achieving my goals (upgrades) and getting results for the sponsors who supported me. I wouldn't be riding without their help, so taking my training and racing seriously is the least I can do for them. With regards to my Velocity A23 Pro Build, it was hand built with Sapim CX-Ray spokes, their race hubs and it's 23mm wide/ 19.5mm deep. This summer, they're going to be releasing an Aileron Pro Build which will be 25mm wide and 25mm deep for rim brakes. It's their first attempt to compete in the aero/aluminum wheel market.

Velocity Wheels


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> "Pro 1/2/3."


Now we can see where your confusion lies. It doesn't say "Pro 1/2/3" , it says "Men *Pro/1/2/3"*. Meaning - if any pros show up that will race with cats 1, 2 & 3 amateurs.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> Thanks for clearing that up. It's surprising to know that the well-known Cat 1 teams here are just amateurs because they have the fitness to produce speeds just like the Pro teams. Based on my experience riding with them at group rides, it will definitely be hard to beat them. I'll have to take advantage of every tactic I know of. In Cat 5 through Cat 3, a lot of riders don't have a good aerodynamic position which is why I know I'll be fine with my current wheelset, but I noticed that the best Cat 2 and 1 riders can hold a very low position which means I will no longer have the aero position advantage. Instead, I'll be at a ~30 watt disadvantage anytime I'm at the front or trying to control a breakaway which often succeeds due to the wind/ high speeds. That's why I wanted to plan ahead by trying to find someone who actually reached Cat 1 without carbon wheels. I needed to know that it's possible.


Some thoughts:
If you are riding by yourself as a Cat 3 and beat the Cat 1 guys riding as a team you won't have to worry about the wheels. Cat 1,2 riders tend to ride as a team and use team strategy a lone Cat 3 rider rarely stands a chance and if they are successful it's usually only once or twice. Once they know you are a threat they will use team tactics and shut you down. If you are Cat 3 I'd concentrate on the 3/4 bracket races and move up to 2 vs. racing in the Pro 1,2,3; you stand a better chance to make points in the 3/4 and get something for your entry fee vs. in the P123. Cat 1/2 groups are often sponsored, so your whole question on upgrades would be mute.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> Below is a link to one of the local races here. Notice how the last race says "Pro 1/2/3."


Well, there you have it. Still hard to believe you've made it this far and were confused by that, but I guess anything is possible. As Mike posted that means 'Pro, Cat 1, Cat 2, AND Cat 3'.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> I kinda think he meant that Eddy, back in the day and on '60s & '70s equipment, would be faster than anyone on this forum today.


You called it Mike T.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> You don't need carbon wheels, but they make your bike look exceptionally cool.


^^^^This^^^^^^. So true. I have a pair of 2014 Zipp 202s. I don't race anymore and didn't need them. They complete the murdered out look on a Time NXS I just built, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to pay my mortgage and the wheels on one pay check. Pros get all the high end stuff for free, and the companies make money off people with good jobs who buy the high end stuff. Folks down the food chain benefit through trickle-down technology.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

ericm979 said:


> stevesbike said:
> 
> 
> > -electronic shifting vs. mech (about 7 watts)
> ...


It's not interesting. It's BS.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Pirx said:


> It's not interesting. It's BS.


here's what he said 

"A mechanical shifting system adds about ~75g of drag depending on the bike size and cable routing costing roughly 8w @ 25mph."

it was on slowtwitch - Damon Rinard etc. also on the thread - I think if he said something BS he'd be called out on it (and he's pretty straight up about their wind tunnel tests).
2014 Felt AR: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums


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## ESTrainSmartBlog (Feb 25, 2013)

mikerp said:


> Some thoughts:
> If you are riding by yourself as a Cat 3 and beat the Cat 1 guys riding as a team you won't have to worry about the wheels. Cat 1,2 riders tend to ride as a team and use team strategy a lone Cat 3 rider rarely stands a chance and if they are successful it's usually only once or twice. Once they know you are a threat they will use team tactics and shut you down. If you are Cat 3 I'd concentrate on the 3/4 bracket races and move up to 2 vs. racing in the Pro 1,2,3; you stand a better chance to make points in the 3/4 and get something for your entry fee vs. in the P123. Cat 1/2 groups are often sponsored, so your whole question on upgrades would be mute.


I wish I heard your advice about team tactics when I first started racing. When I was just a Cat 5 and 4, the local teams used a lot of sneaky tactics like trying to force me to pull too long and blocking me from falling back into the paceline after a hard pull. I learned that something was "off" when I flicked my elbow and nobody came around. In Cat 3, I noticed that they like to sacrifice teammates for attacks. Learning how to counter these tactics helped just as much as improving my fitness.

I'm hoping for another good season (no crashes or mechanicals) so that I can finally join one of the elite teams who already have an established sponsorship contract.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> I just want to know whether or not it's possible to progress to Pro 1 aka. win a lot of races without carbon wheels. I'm currently Pro 3 and we frequently hit 30-35mph because the courses are always very flat. As long as breakaways don't form, I'm able to contend for the sprint through careful positioning, but I noticed that closing gaps/ matching attacks is a lot more difficult at these speeds. It's just starting to get a little intimidating being one of the only riders on aluminum wheels.


Definitely Not! At best a great set of wheels might contribute a few second's in a race.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> Definitely Not! At best a great set of wheels might contribute a few second's in a race.


wrong way to think about it (a race isn't a time trial). Aero = reduced watts to maintain pace/position in a race.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> here's what he said
> 
> "A mechanical shifting system adds about ~75g of drag depending on the bike size and cable routing costing roughly 8w @ 25mph."


I remember SD saying that but if you look at the Tour Magazine results it doesn't seem to bear those numbers out. The AR3 vs. the FRD makes a good comparison of electronic vs. mechanical and round bars vs aero road bars. The two might save you 2-3w but I'm not seeing anywhere near the claimed 10+w claimed for those two upgrades.

New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

This guy can't be serious. Some of his other posts have been pretty epically weird. He claims to be a Coach/Bike Fitter/Fitness expert or some such. I don't see how he's made it this far into the realm of cycling, especially as a coach, and still hasn't sorted out the tactics, categories, importance of training, equipment, etc..

It is an entertaining thread though.

Also, if you want, he can do online bike fitting! Just like the rest of us! XD

BTW, everyone's seat isn't level.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Guod said:


> *This guy can't be serious.* Some of his other posts have been pretty epically weird. He claims to be a Coach/Bike Fitter/Fitness expert or some such. I don't see how he's made it this far into the realm of cycling, especially as a coach, and still hasn't sorted out the tactics, categories, importance of training, equipment, etc..
> 
> It is an entertaining thread though.
> 
> ...


Which guy? Trek5200? The OP? Me? Steve? You need to quote whoever you're talking about cuz we're not psychic here.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Which guy? Trek5200? The OP? Me? Steve? You need to quote whoever you're talking about cuz we're not psychic here.


The OP... The guy who's saying weird stuff...

Ok, I see how that could be a lot of people...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Guod said:


> The OP... The guy who's saying weird stuff...
> 
> Ok, I see how that could be a lot of people...


Thanks for the eye-roll new. See, it could be almost anyone around here.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> here's what he said
> 
> "A mechanical shifting system adds about ~75g of drag depending on the bike size and cable routing costing roughly 8w @ 25mph."
> 
> ...


You think so? Let's say we're comparing apples to apples, so we'll have internal cable routing on the mechanical system. Now, where do you, or he, think that additional drag would be coming from? I'll be nice and let you have an internal battery in the seat tube, too. I will mention in passing that at least the front derailleur, but to some degree also the rear one are more bulky for electric shifting systems, and can thus be expected to have (very slightly) more drag than the equivalent mechanical parts. So, what wind tunnel test results and/or computer simulations can he point to in order to substantiate that claim?

Bottom line: That claim has been pulled out of thin air (again, that's me being nice; I could mention other locations... ), and has exactly zero evidence for it.

P.S.: I just looked at the thread you linked, and the full quote says:



> The frame shapes themselves are the same *however the AR FRD, AR2, and AR3 EPS are slightly more aerodynamic because they do not accommodate mechanical cable systems thus the headtube/downtube gets a slight aero penalty*. A mechanical shifting system adds about ~75g of drag depending on the bike size and cable routing costing roughly 8w @ 25mph


 (emphasis mine)

To me this sounds like he is comparing two slightly different _frames_, so the drag penalty he is talking about is not directly related to the groupset used.

Final remark, as someone who has expertise (and decades of experience) in aerodynamics (mostly aerospace-related, but quite a few lower-end applications as well), I really wish the people doing bicycle aerodynamics for some of these companies or teams had some real aerodynamics or aerospace background. Looking at their testing and development protocols I often cringe. There are literally _reams_ of data and results available in the literature that would be relevant to the work these people are doing, that they clearly are completely unaware of. Reading some of that stuff it feels like we're back at the beginning of the 20th century, at the level of aerodynamic understanding of Lilienthal or the Wright brothers. Those started out as bicycle mechanics, too. Oh well...


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

not to nitpick (too much), but I think the highlighted part means that the Ar1 (mechanical) gets an aero penalty at the headtube/downtube area because of the cables (I believe the AR series is the same mold except for the cable routing holes at the downtube of the Ar1), not because it has a less aero headtube shape or something. You might be right that their testing is flawed, but they saw something that motivated them enough not to offer a mechanical version of the FRD although it is their weight weenie version - so they actually lost some market (like me) who might have paid a premium for the lighter version...



Pirx said:


> You think so? Let's say we're comparing apples to apples, so we'll have internal cable routing on the mechanical system. Now, where do you, or he, think that additional drag would be coming from? I'll be nice and let you have an internal battery in the seat tube, too. I will mention in passing that at least the front derailleur, but to some degree also the rear one are more bulky for electric shifting systems, and can thus be expected to have (very slightly) more drag than the equivalent mechanical parts. So, what wind tunnel test results and/or computer simulations can he point to in order to substantiate that claim?
> 
> Bottom line: That claim has been pulled out of thin air (again, that's me being nice; I could mention other locations... ), and has exactly zero evidence for it.
> 
> ...


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> not to nitpick (too much), but I think the highlighted part means that the Ar1 (mechanical) gets an aero penalty at the headtube/downtube area because of the cables (I believe the AR series is the same mold except for the cable routing holes at the downtube of the Ar1), not because it has a less aero headtube shape or something.


Hard to tell. That's not how I would read that sentence, but you may still be right.

And, yeah, offering electric only is a mistake in my book, too. Catapults the thing right out of contention for me. My feeling is that Felt seems particularly gung-ho on electric shifting, which is of course a bet they're perfectly free to place. Time will tell if it was the right bet. I'll stick with mechanical, thank you. And I won't even start talking about those stupid BB30 frames. Now you'll have to get an adapter every time you want to install a decent crankset. Awesome...


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

ESTrainSmartBlog said:


> I wish I heard your advice about team tactics when I first started racing. When I was just a Cat 5 and 4, the local teams used a lot of sneaky tactics like trying to force me to pull too long and blocking me from falling back into the paceline after a hard pull. *I learned that something was "off" when I flicked my elbow and nobody came around.* In Cat 3, I noticed that they like to sacrifice teammates for attacks. Learning how to counter these tactics helped just as much as improving my fitness.
> 
> I'm hoping for another good season (no crashes or mechanicals) so that I can finally join one of the elite teams who already have an established sponsorship contract.


:lol: It's not a training ride. Unless the person behind you was a teammate or you were in a break cooperating, there's no reason in the world to think an elbow flick would have somebody come around. There was no specific tactic on their part - just a lack of tactic on yours.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I race on carbon now but last year and the year before I won races as a Cat 2 on aluminum clinchers. 

Here half the P1/2 break is on aluminum clinchers, including a pro buddy who wins on entry level shimano wheels:


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

My roommate brought pie home this year...mmmmmmmmm.


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

I am very late to this conversation, but I would suggest taking a dump right before your race. If this is not part of your pre-race routine then that's about a $1000 weight saving right there. Cat 1, everybody poos before they toe the line.


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