# low testosterone levels due to overtraining?



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Lately for the last 7-9 months or so, I've been putting in major training time, like 18-20 hrs/wk. By the 6 months or so, I noticed that by body physiology started to fatigue more, recovery started to slow, and performance gain pretty much halted by month 6 and even declined a bit. Mentally I felt and am still feeling fatigued, burnt out, as in not wanting to get on the bike. Ok, I get it, and I was overtraining and now starting to take break off the bike (but I started going to the gym to replace the bike time).

However, in addition to feeling burnt, I'm also experience low libido as I found this out a week ago. Girlfriend told me that I don't last long anymore, kept asking me if I'm ok. Erections took a while to come, and the pleasure feeling is just not like what it used to be because of the inability to hold an erection. This is starting to affect me psychologically in bed, feeling of inadequacies, and honestly the inability to hold an erection like I used to scares me a bit as I have never experience this feeling before in my life! I know it's not my girlfriend because I still find her hot sexy and attractive as hell. I think I'm experiencing is low testosterone levels here. I don't think it's my health since I don't drink, don't smoke, and my lipid profile is excellent. I spoke with my family doctor over the phone, and he said come in for a testosterone test so I will be doing that soon.

In the meatime, I'm looking to see if anyone has experienced this sort of thing during the course of their training and maybe share your experience.

Note: for the last few days, I have stopped all exercises, no biking, no gym, and basically just eat (and eating more healthy fats like nuts and avodacos), sleep, and work. I noticed that my libido is starting to come back a bit, and the nightly erections are also happening more, but the feeling of inadequacies and uncertainties is still lingering in the back of my mind!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

How old are you?

I haven't experienced it and I'm sorry to hear it. Backing off the volume and raising the intensity may help. Even though you have the time (18-20 hours/week) you might benefit from scaling it back to 6-12 hours/week and following a high intensity time crunched cyclist training model. 

I know you're not an active racer so you have more options than some others. Really think this through as replacement therapy is for life. And in spite of any negativity you may get I would suggest doing whatever it takes to get yourself back to your old self. 

Good luck.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Yeah, I had it happen years ago, before we know what we do today. I just took a break and then eased back in at a lower level. All returned to normal, and life was good.

It is now known that rigorous endurance training can readily lead to lower testosterone levels, as well as other associated hormones. This article might help you appreciate that you're not alone. When asked about doping Greg Lemond commented that he never did, but he got very, very close to using testosterone because as the racing season progressed his levels dropped significantly.

Give it a break for a couple of weeks, then come back at a reduced rate.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

I would have your doctor do bloodwork and check all your hormone levels. Lots of causes are possible. For instance a benign pituitary prolactinoma producing excess prolactin can severely lower your testosterone level. Has happened to several people I know.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm 37. Before all this, I would consider myself a raging buck. Right now, I have no plan of considering taking any sort of testosterone replacement or whatever. My plan for the next 4-6 weeks is to rest, let the body recover, eat more fats (as I have been cutting limiting all fats from my diets during the same time of my training), and see how I feel. A friend of mine has been telling me that I can't be burning the candle at both ends (extreme training and extreme dieting) or else suffer the consequences, but didn't want to believe him. Hmm now I'm seeing his words as truth.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Yep - give it a break. If things seem to come back to normal then it's probably overexertion. If it continues, see your doc. If you want to continue, you may want to check in with your Doc anyway, and you may benefit with some help from a really good sports-oriented nutritionist.

While resting, spend more time with and enjoy your GF. It wills serve you well in many ways.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I think we are all worried about how long we can keep pounding her.

45 seconds? That's my average.

She then rolls her eyes as I'm obviously out of breath.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Yeah, I had it happen years ago, before we know what we do today. I just took a break and then eased back in at a lower level. All returned to normal, and life was good.
> 
> It is now known that rigorous endurance training can readily lead to lower testosterone levels, as well as other associated hormones. This article might help you appreciate that you're not alone. When asked about doping Greg Lemond commented that he never did, but he got very, very close to using testosterone because as the racing season progressed his levels dropped significantly.
> 
> Give it a break for a couple of weeks, then come back at a reduced rate.


thanks for the link, will give it a read later. I've been reading on endurance training and its association with low T levels,.. but it's something I would never thought would happen to me, until now.

I guess I can take some comfort in seeing that just resting a few days with no exercise whatsoever, I'm feeling better and the desire and erections are starting to come back. But back in my mind, I'm still scared, and wondering if I'll ever get it all back 100%, and if it'll happen again in the future. Definitely raises a lot of questions about my manhood! Hopefully all this wil pass!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Bill2 said:


> I would have your doctor do bloodwork and check all your hormone levels. Lots of causes are possible. For instance a benign pituitary prolactinoma producing excess prolactin can severely lower your testosterone level. Has happened to several people I know.


I know ED has lots of causes, but right now I'm just praying that it's just due to my low T levels. Man, honestly this is scarry to me to even think about other things like pituitary gland and other endocrine organs.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

myhui said:


> I think we are all worried about how long we can keep pounding her.
> 
> 45 seconds? That's my average.
> 
> She then rolls her eyes as I'm obviously out of breath.


honestly right now I'm not even worried about pounding anything. I'm more worried about how this will affect me and her psychologically. On our last 3 sessions, I can only hit climax 1 time, the other 2 times I just quit out of frustration and embarrasment (who's would have thought that a guy can feel embarrassed naked in bed with a girl he has known for years!). Praying that this will all pass away as I rest up.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> I guess I can take some comfort in seeing that just resting a few days with no exercise whatsoever, I'm feeling better and the desire and erections are starting to come back. But back in my mind, I'm still scared, and wondering if I'll ever get it all back 100%, and if it'll happen again in the future. Definitely raises a lot of questions about my manhood! Hopefully all this wil pass!





aclinjury said:


> I'm more worried about how this will affect me and her psychologically. On our last 3 sessions, I can only hit climax 1 time, the other 2 times I just quit out of frustration and embarrasment (who's would have thought that a guy can feel embarrassed naked in bed with a girl he has known for years!). Praying that this will all pass away as I rest up.


Most likely, and I mean that with all sincerity, it WILL pass as you recover. It's not a manhood thing, and I doubt at 37 it's an age thing. It's doubt it's ED either, other than a temporary physiological response. From what you describe it is most likely an overexertion thing. Give it a break, and spend the extra time with her (you both need it). Be sure to talk to her openly as you do.

I would bet all will get back to normal, and probably even better than you recall (your a fit endurance machine). The real challenge will be not re-overdoing it when you return. Come back easy, and for the fun of it. Unless it IS your life (a pro), there is much more to life than endurance effort.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

The term over-training is somewhat incorrect and is starting to change in the literature. The better way to look at it is under-recovering. Basically the outcome is the same as exactly what you are describing, but that is due to a long and high load of volume without adequate recovery, resulting in (potentially) reduced hormonal profile. It is likely due to lack of total energy intake, and may be related to other macros as well (which I can't explicitly comment on without knowing your diet overall). But here a study of hormonal changes in a bodybuilder who does a "good" cut for a competition and the result of reduced nutrient intake with maintained training volume. It takes a while, but most hormone profiles (test for example) drop off after a sufficient duration. Case Study: Natural Bodybuilding Contest Preparation. - PubMed - NCBI


A good method to reverse these symptoms (assuming there is not an additional unknown disease state) is to reduce training load (likely volume and maybe some intensity) and also to over-consume nutrients. "Good" fats and protein are a good place to start. But Carb intake is highly related to thyroid function, which can also decline after a training block like you describe. 

The paradigm shift in semantics for this condition have to do with the approach to the solution. We often assume that the training IS the problem without considering the recovery (rest / sleep / nutrition / life stress). It is VERY hard to over train for very long because TRUE overtraining acutely leads to inability to train at a high intensity or for long durations. This in turn leads to lower training loads which further acerbate the problem. 

I think the nuances of this distinction should make application of solutions to training approaches more beneficial overall.

Good luck. I would get your test and thyroid checked. And also back off training a bit. Evaluate sleep and nutrition. and don't go back to FULL training until the levels and how you feel return to GOOD.

You can maintain quite a bit of that fitness on about 10 hours per week if your training plan has appropriate intensity. 

The worst thing you can do is continue to go too hard or return to "training" too soon as this will just prolong recovery from the issue. 

If I am reading this correctly, you have been experiencing these symptoms for 3 months? If yes, depending on the severity, that might be a bit of a hole to climb out of.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

sdeeer said:


> The term over-training is somewhat incorrect and is starting to change in the literature. The better way to look at it is under-recovering. Basically the outcome is the same as exactly what you are describing, but that is due to a long and high load of volume without adequate recovery, resulting in (potentially) reduced hormonal profile. ...
> 
> ...
> 
> I think the nuances of this distinction should make application of solutions to training approaches more beneficial overall.


I believe the distinction you're making is a great one. It make much clearer the real origin of the problem and how to treat it. The importance of recovery is often undervalued, especially as we age. In my own experience I can work/train nearly as hard as I did 20 years ago, but the time needed for full recovery has increased substantially.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

sdeeer said:


> The term over-training is somewhat incorrect and is starting to change in the literature. The better way to look at it is under-recovering. Basically the outcome is the same as exactly what you are describing, but that is due to a long and high load of volume without adequate recovery, resulting in (potentially) reduced hormonal profile. It is likely due to lack of total energy intake, and may be related to other macros as well (which I can't explicitly comment on without knowing your diet overall). But here a study of hormonal changes in a bodybuilder who does a "good" cut for a competition and the result of reduced nutrient intake with maintained training volume. It takes a while, but most hormone profiles (test for example) drop off after a sufficient duration. Case Study: Natural Bodybuilding Contest Preparation. - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> 
> A good method to reverse these symptoms (assuming there is not an additional unknown disease state) is to reduce training load (likely volume and maybe some intensity) and also to over-consume nutrients. "Good" fats and protein are a good place to start. But Carb intake is highly related to thyroid function, which can also decline after a training block like you describe.
> ...


Sorry I was not being chronologically clear. Here's the deal. About 4 weeks ago, I was still having a semi-normal, albeit tired, sex life; meaning, I could still get an erection and climax, but inside I would feel tire and fatigue. I had sensed that I needed to back off on the training a bit and rest more, and I was about to start my resting phase. 

Then some of my buddies decided to do a "tour of Asia" cycling trip, and wanted me to come along. It was a straightup 4-day cycling trip where we averaged about 140-150 miles/day. Now, for any of you who have never biked in third world southeast Asian roads and deal with the heat and humidity, let me assured you that it is not the same as riding 150 miles in nice cool roads in the USA. I also contracted a bout of diarrhea on the 3rd day and that took a lot out of me, and I struggled to finish on the 4th day. 

Well after the 4 day cycling adventure, by now my g/f had flown into to Asia to meet me and we'd figure we'd have our "mini vacation". On the 6th day we checked into a nice 5star hotel and had sex, and that was when I first noticably felt really tired, but I still managed to get an erection and climaxed, but that strange feeling got to me psychologically (I was wondering what the heck!). On the 2nd and 3rd nights, I failed to erect, and I pretty much gave up and turn over and slept the night away. After this, we spent the next couple days not attempting anything in bed, and then flew back to the US. And since back in the US, I haven't attempted to have sex yet, still fearing inadequate and wondering what the heck just happened to me in Asia. I had been resting for about 3 days since back in the US, and so far I'm starting to feel a bit better, the nightly erections are starting to come back, but I'm still a little timid. The g/f has been fully supportive of me, she does not press me for anything that I do not feel comfortable.

I think the 4-day adventure effort was the straw that broke the camel's back and pushed me over the edge. And upon arriving in the US, I pretty much spent 2 consecutive days sleeping, only waking up to eat and go to the restroom. I'm only beginning to come around and think about this issue and posting it on here. Next step is to check my test levels, which I'm sure has to be pretty low.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Dude, you've got a lot of healing to do. Get to it.

BTW, given what you've been doing, done and the result, you must have a pretty special GF if she's still smiling at you. Value that.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Dude, you've got a lot of healing to do. Get to it.
> 
> BTW, given what you've been doing, done and the result, you must have a pretty special GF if she's still smiling at you. Value that.


x2.
You've put in a lot of hours on the bike, time to back off a little.


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## ghettocop (Apr 19, 2014)

Dude! You rode 600 miles and the very next day were too tired to perform adequately in bed? I think that would be considered pretty normal.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

redondoaveb said:


> I bet she could "raise" your testosterone level.


Hey Bro, we all have different tastes ...


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

myhui said:


> Hey Bro, we all have different tastes ...


Whatever floats your boat, Bro. PS, the pic was for the OP, hopefully he appreciates is more than you do.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> I know ED has lots of causes, but right now I'm just praying that it's just due to my low T levels. Man, honestly this is scarry to me to even think about other things like pituitary gland and other endocrine organs.


I know what you mean. But low testosterone level must have a cause. Prolactinoma is just one possibility and your doctor can easily have your bloodwork checked for prolactin level at same time he checks testosterone level. Just one step in diagnostic troubleshooting.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

thank you for the positive thoughts guys! Really appreciate it. Just a little good news from me since I'm online. Me and the gf were cuddling earlier. Let me just say I was still a little anxious and nervous, but gf assured me nothing is expected, in fact she said she just want to cuddle with me and that's it. After about 20 min of rubbing and kissing, the fireworks started. I felt so relieved, probably so did she. I'm so relieved that the excitement got over me that I couldn't fall back to sleep and here I'm online posting. I'm still coming in my doc for a T test and whatever test he recommends. I think the rest days that I'm able to sleep definitely helped!


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> ... After about 20 min of rubbing and kissing, the fireworks started.
> 
> ... I think the rest days that I'm able to sleep definitely helped!


Great! Now keep with the rest work, and the GF.


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## ycastane (May 1, 2014)

I'd have to agree with not focusing enough on recovery, specially your nutrition. Overtraining only happens when you don't eat enough macros to replenish what you burn as well as to aid in rebuilding muscle tissue, not sure what your diet looks like but eating just better fats doesn't mean anything, I would actually increase immediately low GI carbs like sweet potato, brown rice, beans, etc. Yes fats are an energy source but carbs work faster and right now you need all the help you can get.

Just FYI a, carbs are needed for both recovery and muscle growth, the right carbs in the right amounts do wonders on a diet whether you are trying to lose weight, maintain or increase.

Again not sure what your diet looks like and whether you know enough about nutrition, just my .02 cents!!! Hope you get better soon!!!


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## Aladin (Oct 5, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> (as I have been cutting limiting all fats from my diets during the same time of my training)


Bingo. The body lives off fats for energy.. primarily. THAT.. is your prime issue.


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## ycastane (May 1, 2014)

Aladin said:


> Bingo. The body lives off fats for energy.. primarily. THAT.. is your prime issue.


I'd to disagree!!! The body lives off of different energy sources, carbs, fats, protein. Primarily the body gets all its energy from carbs which is converted into insulin in your blood stream, depending on the carb source you get steady levels of insulin or spikes, that's why you have a glycemic index for different carb sources, fats come right after as a source of energy when there are no carbs present, hence low carb diets, then comes protein as a last resource, BUT when you are depleting the body of both carbs and fats your body will start eating away the protein and I don't mean the type you eat, your muscles are primarily protein, muscle tissue is a higher energy source then fat, so when you go the extremes (I've been there) your body will start eating the muscle tissue, that's why the first thing you see is a halt in muscle growth, then you start feeling that the recovery takes longer, then you start getting tired, then your hormones go out of each because the body is trying to balance out in order not to starve.

Human body is a perfect machine and it will do anything not to starve to death!!! Proper nutrition will not only help with body weight and muscle gain but also hormonal balance.

I used to weight 250 lbs, in a 3 yr period and after endless hours of learning proper nutrition, recovery, etc I went from 300 test to 700 while I went down to 180 lbs.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ibericb said:


> Great! Now keep with the rest work, and the GF.


thanks for the kind words. I should really stop calling her my gf. Though we're not married, we've been living together for 5 years and we have a 3 yr old together. For all practical purposes, except the legal wordings, we're really husband and wife. But next year we're getting married to make it official under the laws! She's a keeper for me


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> next year we're getting married to make it official under the laws!


I understand that things are going well. But is the relationship so good that you need to bring California in for a manage a trois?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> thanks for the kind words. I should really stop calling her my gf. Though we're not married, we've been living together for 5 years and we have a 3 yr old together. For all practical purposes, except the legal wordings, we're really husband and wife. But next year we're getting married to make it official under the laws! She's a keeper for me


You got a keeper for sure. Now take care of both yourself, and her, and that little one. Enjoy all of life.

Do keep us posted on your progress. Many here like happy endings.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

about my nutrition, i'm a vegan. I eat plenty of carbs. However, I think in my obsession to get as light as possible, I might have (detrimentally?) cut too much fats from my diet. At one point I was 114 lbs (at 5'7"), but mostly stayed at 117-118 lbs. I would have a hard time gaining muscle mass. I sort of knew that I was not eating enough fats, but I wanted to push the envelop of nutrition to see how much fats I can avoid eating and still maintain a "normal" physiology. And I'm now finding out that I need to eat more fats.

During my rest days brought forth by this incident, I have been eating like crazy with lots of fats,.. heck I even ate some meat (and normally I don't have an urge to eat meat).. and was able to pack on 4 lbs in about 10 days (as of this morning). I think I was a tad undernurished.

Last night after our little romp in the bedroom, I got hungry and ate a big bowl of rice with pork, I just felt hungry and felt like eating everything I see in the fridge (which had pork since my girl is not a vegan). And I believe my recent food binging must created a lot of anabolic process in my body.. because this morning upon waking up.. we went at it again in bed. I think we both were equally shocked to see me go at it twice considering I was a limp in Asia only weeks ago. My goal now is to eat more, and stay off the bike for maybe another week (but I will still be hitting the gym for short intense weightlifting though). Relieved is understatement.

edit:
I want to note that I'm not blaming the vegan diet, but rather blaming myself for perhaps not eating enough fats as I have been consciously making an effort to cut as much fats from my diet as possible in the last 6-7 months or so. Well, lesson learned.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> I understand that things are going well. But is the relationship so good that you need to bring California in for a manage a trois?


it has to do with legal stuff here bro. She was on a student visa when we met, and now work visa, and if we don't get marry, she won't so easily become a permanent resident of the US. If anything, I'm the one who has been dragging my feet for the last 5 years.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

ibericb said:


> You got a keeper for sure. Now take care of both yourself, and her, and that little one. Enjoy all of life.
> 
> Do keep us posted on your progress. *Many here like happy endings*.


That's what she said!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> it has to do with legal stuff here bro. She was on a student visa when we met, and now work visa, and if we don't get marry, she won't so easily become a permanent resident of the US. If anything, I'm the one who has been dragging my feet for the last 5 years.


Yes, I believe there are many valid reasons for marriage, I just can't help myself when I see an opportunity to make that joke.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> about my nutrition, i'm a vegan. I eat plenty of carbs. However, I think in my obsession to get as light as possible, I might have (detrimentally?) cut too much fats from my diet.
> maintain a "normal" physiology. And I'm now finding out that I need to eat more fats.
> ...
> 
> During my rest days brought forth by this incident, I have been eating like crazy with lots of fats,.. heck I even ate some meat (and normally I don't have an urge to eat meat).. and was able to pack on 4 lbs in about 10 days (as of this morning). I think I was a tad undernurished.


You're not a vegan -- you're a closet carnivore, or omnivore.

I've done a lot of work on diet nutrition for performance athletes. A great starting point is 60-20-20 -- 60% of your calories from carbs (with lots of variety), 20% from proteins and 20% from fats. 

If you focus on being able to get the more of the fats from added "good fat" sources rather than just trying to exclude a lot of animal or saturated fats, and you keep the protein in check, you'll probably find that the rest pretty much takes care of itself. In other words, use protein sources (animal or vegetable) that when incorporated at the right amounts leave you room to add more fat in the form of vegetable fats, you'll be on the right track. Of course it goes without saying, the total caloric intake has to be adequate too. I have a 14 year old that in pre-season training this year was doing 6000 calories a day. He is very lean, and grows like he's being fed fertilizer. He has learned over the past couple of years how to sense what his body is telling him, and he self regulates according to his training/playing efforts. Be sure you have a good handle on your caloric needs.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

You're right that eating too few fats is not good for you. I did that back in the 80s when low fat/high carb was the supposed way for endurance athletes. It didn't work well though I did not get as depleted as you seem to have. As you have probably read you need fat to make hormones.

My wife and I did not marry for seven years though we lived together for almost all of that. We didnt feel we needed it for our relationship. What changed our minds was my wife's hospital stay. Even though the hospital people were nice we could see that legally, being married makes things much simpler. If we'd continued to not be married we'd have had to put our house and assets in a trust and do a bunch of other legal stuff to get the legal rights that married couples get from a signature.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Getting back on topic ...

What are all of your "the night before a big road race" strategies in terms of food intake?

Bacon with pasta in white sauce and broccoli? That's what I usually do, with banana, yogurt, and blueberries in the morning before the race.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I'm already down to 118lbs and will be training more this year because I've accumulated too much vacation time. Relax and get well soon or I'll have a higher FTP soon.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ibericb said:


> You're not a vegan -- you're a closet carnivore, or omnivore.
> 
> I've done a lot of work on diet nutrition for performance athletes. A great starting point is 60-20-20 -- 60% of your calories from carbs (with lots of variety), 20% from proteins and 20% from fats.
> 
> If you focus on being able to get the more of the fats from added "good fat" sources rather than just trying to exclude a lot of animal or saturated fats, and you keep the protein in check, you'll probably find that the rest pretty much takes care of itself. In other words, use protein sources (animal or vegetable) that when incorporated at the right amounts leave you room to add more fat in the form of vegetable fats, you'll be on the right track. Of course it goes without saying, the total caloric intake has to be adequate too. I have a 14 year old that in pre-season training this year was doing 6000 calories a day. He is very lean, and grows like he's being fed fertilizer. He has learned over the past couple of years how to sense what his body is telling him, and he self regulates according to his training/playing efforts. Be sure you have a good handle on your caloric needs.


i do eat meat once a couple weeks mainly because we go out, but i don't usuallly have a craving for meat. Also, deep inside i have conflicting thoughts about eating caged animals; something is just not right about it. I just need to eat more, and up my fat intake a bit. Probably need to back off a few hours a week, or have an easy week, in the future too. But lesson has been learned!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Yes, I believe there are many valid reasons for marriage, I just can't help myself when I see an opportunity to make that joke.


uhg no need to remind me about marriage; gone thru one divorce already! But...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> You're right that eating too few fats is not good for you. I did that back in the 80s when low fat/high carb was the supposed way for endurance athletes. It didn't work well though I did not get as depleted as you seem to have. As you have probably read you need fat to make hormones.
> 
> My wife and I did not marry for seven years though we lived together for almost all of that. We didnt feel we needed it for our relationship. What changed our minds was my wife's hospital stay. Even though the hospital people were nice we could see that legally, being married makes things much simpler. If we'd continued to not be married we'd have had to put our house and assets in a trust and do a bunch of other legal stuff to get the legal rights that married couples get from a signature.


that's the exact thing, marriage carries with it many communitive benefits. On my Asia tour, I was actually hit by a motorbike. It was my fault for making an abrupt U-turn (never ever make any abrupt turn in congested streets of Asia). Luckily the driver was a woman and was going slow (only broke my front wheel). But it was was a young guy driving that motorbike, who knows what might have happened to me, but being killed would be a possibility. Then what??


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

myhui said:


> Getting back on topic ...
> 
> What are all of your "the night before a big road race" strategies in terms of food intake?
> 
> Bacon with pasta in white sauce and broccoli? That's what I usually do, with banana, yogurt, and blueberries in the morning before the race.


night before i ususally eat pasta, rice, potatoes. Well i'm vegan that's pretty much what I eat on many nights! Morning of the ride, I eat a light bowl of cereal with a banana and raisen 3 hrs before the ride. If I expect the ride to a hard ride (ie, 93%-94% threshold) and less than 2 hrs, then I dont eat anything on the ride. If longer than 2 hrs, then prepare to ease up on the pace and carry gels.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

spade2you said:


> I'm already down to 118lbs and will be training more this year because I've accumulated too much vacation time. Relax and get well soon or I'll have a higher FTP soon.


and i will be the first one to congrats you if you get close to 250w on 1 hr and 300w for 10 min on fresh legs. I have no doubt if you put in the kind of hours I put in, you can get there. But eh... I won't do it again! Too much sacrifice for a non-pro.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> and i will be the first one to congrats you if you get close to 250w on 1 hr and 300w for 10 min on fresh legs. I have no doubt if you put in the kind of hours I put in, you can get there. But eh... I won't do it again! Too much sacrifice for a non-pro.


I once held about 280w for ~11 minutes at Joe Martin. Not sure of my weight that day. Haven't been able to repeat that kind of 10 minute power on the trainer. Haven't focused too much on my 10 minute power unless I decide to do that race again.

My 30 minute power still isn't quite 250w, although that was with fairly inconsistent training. This year should hopefully be a little better. They didn't have my favorite 40km ITT this year, so I didn't put as much focus on my 60 minute power. Hopefully they have that race again. 

I had some good 30 minute power numbers this year with my modest amount of hours training.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

ycastane said:


> I'd to disagree!!!
> 
> in a 3 yr period and after endless hours of learning proper nutrition,.


I'd [sic] to disagree with many of the points in your post. Please don't take offense, but you obviously do not actually understand metabolism or nutrition. I am not going to take the time to pick apart each false claim, but it should be blatantly obvious that carbohydrates are a sugar which do not "turn into" insulin in the blood. Insulin is a protein hormone released from the pancreases in response to a glucose load.

And your whole discussion on substrate metabolism "order" is also highly flawed. 

If you want to learn / get further clarifications, I can provide you some better references or answer a few specific questions. 

I just hate to see the spread of false or misleading information.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Congratulations on your engagement! Yeah, it's hard to imagine that those legal rights of marriage have such a huge real world impact... But, that practical stuff aside, sounds like you have a great relationship and a big old party is in order! Enjoy! 

I'd just like to add one thing to sdeeer and others... Please consider taking some time to see a good therapist. What we put in our mouths is a huge part of our health but we put in our heads is equally important. Those are the TWO big inputs. Without that, I'm going to guess you are likely to get into this loop repeatedly. You need rest, lots of it. And you need to clean some stuff up while you do it. If you make your living racing a bike that's one thing, but if cycling is having a negative impact on your health, career and relationship then there is some non-cycling work to do to get that in perspective.

Good luck, I'm glad to see you are feeling better!


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> Erections took a while to come...


I would have quit as soon as this started happening!

But seriously, I think pushing rope is pretty common after a long hard ride. Rest up and you'll be fine. Nothing like getting fat over the holidays.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

kbiker3111 said:


> I would have quit as soon as this started happening!
> 
> But seriously, I think pushing rope is pretty common after a long hard ride.


Really? I've never heard of this being a problem. I've never tried RIGHT after a ride, especially since my wife is usually angry that I rode my bike and had some time to myself.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Really? I've never heard of this being a problem. I've never tried RIGHT after a ride, especially since my wife is usually angry that I rode my bike and had some time to myself.


If you haven't tried to fool around after a 4000 kj, 300 tss ride, then you haven't lived. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSIV8MUnjbE

Really, I think the body just gets tired after a hard effort. That and sitting on your crotch for a few hours can't help. Even Taylor Phinney has mentioned as much, in a backdoor brag kind of way.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

kbiker3111 said:


> If you haven't tried to fool around after a 4000 kj, 300 tss ride, then you haven't lived.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSIV8MUnjbE
> 
> Really, I think the body just gets tired after a hard effort. That and sitting on your crotch for a few hours can't help. Even Taylor Phinney has mentioned as much, in a backdoor brag kind of way.


I wish. I can throw this in the pile of things that aren't allowed, much like winning arguments.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Try searching "sexual attraction after exercise": Let me google that for you

I was surprised most of the articles talk about women emitting chemicals after they exercise, but none mentioning men emitting the same.

Maybe both of you should exercise together: she on the short route, you on the long route.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

kbiker3111 said:


> But seriously, I think pushing rope is pretty common after a long hard ride. .


Nope.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> night before i ususally eat pasta, rice, potatoes. Well i'm vegan that's pretty much what I eat on many nights!


Many thanks for that.

If you are in an unfamiliar city, you can go for this commercial substitute at a Japanese restaurant: squid and seaweed salad, chirashi bowl, hot green tea, hot sake.

Yummm


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

myhui said:


> Many thanks for that.
> 
> If you are in an unfamiliar city, you can go for this commercial substitute at a Japanese restaurant: squid and seaweed salad, chirashi bowl, hot green tea, hot sake.
> 
> Yummm


He'd have to give up being vegan... Which would probably be a very good idea for health and nutritional reasons, but he already said his is a moral choice.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> He'd have to give up being vegan... Which would probably be a very good idea for health and nutritional reasons, but he already said his is a moral choice.


A couple of years ago there were several NFL players who went vegan, mostly for health choices, in the off-season. As best I know all of them found they had to abandon strict vegan diets when they returned to camps in early summer. A common comment was they just couldn't recover without more concentrated protein sources (fish, poultry, meat) in their diets.

My sister-in-law is strict vegan for moral reasons, and she has to work diligently to be sure she gets what she needs nutritionally. Being a long-term vegan, and balancing nutrition, is not simple and can't be done casually if you want to live an active life in our modern world.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I've never tried RIGHT after a ride, especially since my wife is usually angry


That'll kill the mood no matter how not tired you are. Immeditately after a long hard ride I am too focused on getting food to even think of sex.

There's been a number of vegan pros and good national level racers. Being vegan clearly does not preclude reaching a high level.


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## misterwaterfallin (Sep 14, 2012)

ericm979 said:


> That'll kill the mood no matter how not tired you are. Immeditately after a long hard ride I am too focused on getting food to even think of sex.
> 
> There's been a number of vegan pros and good national level racers. Being vegan clearly does not preclude reaching a high level.


Myerson(sp) kills it and I believe he is a vegan. I know of several local 1/2 racers who are also fast and are vegan. It can be done but I don't think it's the easy way by any means.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

again thank you for the positive thoughts folks!

As of this moment, I have packed on about 4 pounds. I'm now at about 121-122 lbs in the morning. For almost the past 2 weeks, I have almost.. almost.. stopped biking completely. To substitute for biking, I go to the gym 4-5 times/wk to lift (like the old days), and my lifting lifting consist of low reps but heavy. Also, I have been putting back some fish and chicken into my diet, and meat (fish and chicken) might have to continue to be on my diet for the forseeable future. 

Already, I'm feeling refreshed!! This past Sat. and Sun, I went out for some cycling with the guys, my first real biking for almost 2 weeks. Saturday I took it at an easy/medium pace, kept the ride about 2 hrs. But on Sunday the fast crews came out, they hammered, and I couldn't resist so I went with the flow. Several things (improvement) I noticed immediately. One, my short 1 to 1.5 minute power increased dramatically, was into the 550w range, and I have never ever been able to hit this sort of power ever during my 7-9 months training previously. Two, my peak power is now almost 900w! I felt like that 15 yr old junior in our group! Previsouly, at 117-118 lbs, though I have a high steady-state output (for me), my peak power would never go over 700w, and my short 1min duration would never go over 400w. 

It's amazing what some good rest, and 4 pound gain, can improve such short and peak power. I like what I'm seeing! Though I do have to wonder if my longer-term steady-state output has suffered?? Regardless, for now, I will not be focusing on long 1hr-plus steady state training like I used to anymore until I get more rest and get a better handle on my nutrition. I still like to remain vegan, but I have to say adding some meat sure makes everything a little easier to manage for me because I can see the weight gain and definitely short duration power.

Oh yeah I even took my girl out shopping at a Victoria's Secret store on the weekend too. She was ecstatic! I'm getting my feeling and mojo back! Also, during my rest time, I spent a lot of time reading the Kama Sutra. Tell you what, that's some good stuff. I never believed those sexual methods a man can practice actually work, until now.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

kbiker3111 said:


> If you haven't tried to fool around after a 4000 kj, 300 tss ride, then you haven't lived.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSIV8MUnjbE
> 
> Really, I think the body just gets tired after a hard effort. That and sitting on your crotch for a few hours can't help. Even Taylor Phinney has mentioned as much, in a backdoor brag kind of way.


TSS 300? I wished!!

Try TSS 440 on the first day, 370 on the second day, 330 on the third, and 315 on the fourth. Biking 140-150 miles on poor Southeast Asian backroads with heat, humidity, and unpredictable torrential down pours... will jack up the TSS in ways that folks riding the nice smooth roads of the USA cannot imagine. Also, by the 3rd day, I had painful saddle sores (due to constantly wet bibs), and contracted diarrhea from drinking the local water (big mistake!). By the forth day I was struggling, hands were sores from all those dirt and gravel roads, and my crotch were pretty much numb for most of the fourth day for all the beating I took from the bad road and constantly wet bibs. Almost all of the riders in our groups actually couldn't hack it and many either hopped on a bus, took a taxi, or get a push from a motorbike, to the next stop. It was only me, along with another guy, who actually finished the whole tour on our bikes. I didn't want to be remembered as "that guy from the USA" to give in. At the end, the guys gave me major respect, some of these guys are local and even national (for their countries) racers themselves. Goes to show how hard this ride was. 

When we were about 40 miles out from our final destination, we were treated with a HUGE peloton gather and motorcycle entourage consisting of local bikers, racers, and ex-national champs, who came out to cheer us on. It was an ecstatic experience to meet such greeting!

Oh yeah, did I mention that the end of each of our stage, there's usually lots of celebratory beer and festivity eating being thrown by the local bike clubs? This is Asia, and festivity means lots of food and drinking late into the night. We knew we would get our asses kicked the next morning, but in Asia that's the culture so we had no choice but to join in the festivity.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

As long as you didn't eat raw monkey brains or drink snake blood, you'll probably survive.

Sounds like quite an adventure (or folly of misguided youth).


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ibericb said:


> As long as you didn't eat raw monkey brains or drink snake blood, you'll probably survive.
> 
> Sounds like quite an adventure (or folly of misguided youth).


did not try the monkey brain stuff (it's an expensive delicacy!)... but snake blood mixed in rice alchol, had a couple of those.. and also had a fish blood mixed in rice alcohol too. All in all, this was as much a cycling adventure as it was a food adventure. This is how it is in Asia man! And you know what's funny, I told them I was vegan and can't eat meat during our end of stage 1 celebration festivity.. the host immediately and loudly laughed at me (in a friend and jolly way) at the dinner table.. he asked me outloud so the whole table could hear.. he was being friendly of course, and also a bit drunk too.. if being vegan means I can't perform in bed.. he asked if I wanna be like those Buddhist monks who eats tons of tofu and have no desire for women??? LOL every laughed, then forced loads of porks and fish and seafood on my plates, told me that here we don't practice veganism until the wives turn old and ugly or reaches menopause, then we go to temples. LOL that's drunk Asian guys for you.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

If you were overtrained before, now that you relaxed the training your form has come around. Nice. 500-550 watts for 90 seconds @ ~120lbs is pretty good.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

OT - Before I retired, business travel throughout Asia came with my job. Often I/we were in situations of being entertained by important hosts. Yes, raw monkey brains at the special table (monkey strapped in underneath) was in there somewhere. I figured that as a result of years of travelling I came close to eating something from anything that was ever alive in my lifetime. 

Back on topic - you can certainly pursue a vegan diet and keep up with the cycling at fairly intense levels. But it isn't really simple or trivial. If you want to do that I would strongly encourage you to enlist the help and support of a good sports oriented nutritionist.


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## Aladin (Oct 5, 2014)

ycastane said:


> Primarily the body gets all its energy from carbs


I frankly do not care what anyone believes.. NOT meaning to be a smart *ss. Yes the system burns calories from all sources.. but the design is not for primarily burning carbs for fuel.

Gary Taubes is a science writer.. his book 'Why We Get Fat' is a simple read that explains food metabolism thoroughly. High carb diets are killing the many.. this affliction is genetically variable-- finally something written with the sense to acknowledge obesity is more genetically based.

Likely one would have to buy this book via Amazon etc.. not expensive though. If your open to intellectual honesty.. this book will open your eyes.. if... you think our race was designed to run via high carb diets. 

BTW... I eat protein & fat mostly with minor carbs mostly low glycemic vegetables. My triglycerides are 70 and cholesterol count around 150's. I road over 5,000 miles last yr.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Aladin said:


> I frankly do not care what anyone believes.. NOT meaning to be a smart *ss. Yes the system burns calories from all sources.. but the design is not for primarily burning carbs for fuel.
> 
> Gary Taubes is a science writer.. his book 'Why We Get Fat' is a simple read that explains food metabolism thoroughly. High carb diets are killing the many.. this affliction is genetically variable-- finally something written with the sense to acknowledge obesity is more genetically based.
> 
> ...


1. You are blessed.

2. High anything diets (carb, fat or protein) are a problem over any long term. The key is the right balance of all as nutrient and energy sources (yes, everyone needs all of them). The challenge is proper balance depends significantly on activity level, the type of activity, intensity, duration, and individual body specifics that includes muscle composition and endocrine function. There is no one-size fits all. They key is to find what is best given your individual situation and body, and then also appreciate that activities and nutritional needs change, both over the short and longer terms.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

At this point I'd say I'm back to better than normal. I've gained weight, and now up to a solid 121 lbs, and holding onto the gain! Since the 2 weekend rides, I didn't do any bike riding, did gym and weight training stuff (mostly legs stuff like squat, legs extension, clean, and some bench press). So far I'm feeling very strong inside and outside, and revitalized again, "man urges" and all that stuff. I will probably continue to pretty much stay off the bike (except for weekend rides) until after New Year. Then plan is to ease back into endurance training but this time plan is to rest more and not get into a downward spiral of burning out. Lesson learned, hopefully!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

But have you changed your diet at all, compared to before your Asian trip?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

myhui said:


> But have you changed your diet at all, compared to before your Asian trip?


My diet is still pretty much vegetarian based. I did say previously that I have been meat (mainly fish and chicken) back into my diet during my recovery phase. But understand that the amount of meat I've been eating is still very very small compared to a typical American diet. I eat an equivalent of 1 very small tiny chicken thigh each day. For now I will keep eating like this until after New Year. After new year, I will consider going back to vegan again.

I'm not sure if my diet was the real problem, or lack of rest. I'm thinking it's more of an issue of training too much and not enough rest though. Afterall, there have been plenty of successful world-class vegan endurance athletes. There are quite a number of vegan bodybuilders too. So I don't think veganism is what caused my energy collapse. I needed rest.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Aladin said:


> I frankly do not care what anyone believes.. NOT meaning to be a smart *ss. Yes the system burns calories from all sources.. but the design is not for primarily burning carbs for fuel.
> 
> Gary Taubes is a science writer.. his book 'Why We Get Fat' is a simple read that explains food metabolism thoroughly. High carb diets are killing the many.. this affliction is genetically variable-- finally something written with the sense to acknowledge obesity is more genetically based.
> 
> ...


Gary Taubes is a highly controversial figure in the world of nutrition. He has books to sell. His degree is in physics, not nutrition. There are plenty and plenty of errors in his books and speeches. Recently, he has teamed up with Peter Attia to establish a diet foundation that pretty much pushes the ketogenic diet, and it's heavily funded by the meat industry and a young billionaire. There are more financial stakes in what he has to sell than there are science stakes. I have read a lot about Tabues, Mark Sissons, Attia, and all the lowcarb advocates et al.. and they all have agendas to push.

As for me, my total serum cholestrol is now 117, LDL 63. If you're a person whose diet consist of high animal protein/fat, it's likely that your LDL is thru the roof, I'm talking LDL upward of 200. And in order to reverse any atherosclerotic process, you'll need an LDL lower than 75. If you've been an American diet for most of your life, and you're over 30, you can safely bet that many of your blood vessels have already undergone atherosclerotic process.

But lastly, if our system was not designed to burn carbs, then why has evolution instill such a system in us? Evolution does not build something as elaborate as a carbohydrate metabolism system and not intend for us to use it much. However, what I can say is that eating bad, processed carbs is definitely not something we have evolved to do. A lot of the metabolic syndrome and illnesses of Americans can be attritubed to eating bad food.

And I do not think you should hint my case as an example of what a vegan diet can do to a person exercising. I now you didn't explicitly point the finger at my diet, but the undertone of your post certainly carries such connotation if ever so slightly. I would say my issue stems from over exercising (my relative weekly TSS score is higher than even many pros, for longer duration than many of them), *and* not getting enough rest, *and* putting myself under a restrictive diet. It is akin to burning the candle from both ends and the middle. The candle will not stand for long, and i was that candle, unfortunately. Simply put, I ran my body into the ground.

Well I don't want to get into a debate about nutrition in here all that much because nutrition is another whole topic deserving of its own thread.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> My diet is still pretty much vegetarian based. I did say previously that I have been meat (mainly fish and chicken) back into my diet during my recovery phase. But understand that the amount of meat I've been eating is still very very small compared to a typical American diet. I eat an equivalent of 1 very small tiny chicken thigh each day. For now I will keep eating like this until after New Year. After new year, I will consider going back to vegan again.
> 
> I'm not sure if my diet was the real problem, or lack of rest. I'm thinking it's more of an issue of training too much and not enough rest though. Afterall, there have been plenty of successful world-class vegan endurance athletes. There are quite a number of vegan bodybuilders too. So I don't think veganism is what caused my energy collapse. I needed rest.


I tried vegetarian a few times and felt kinda crappy. I might have felt somewhat better if I utilized protein shakes, but I used to live on that crap when I was younger and had an unreasonable metabolism. I'm happy to have a normal enough metabolism that I can eat and be full. 

Lack of rest sucks. I have a nice paying, but high stress job and high stress home life. Still not sure how I made athletic improvements this year. My numbers were somehow better despite less training.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

spade2you said:


> I tried vegetarian a few times and felt kinda crappy. I might have felt somewhat better if I utilized protein shakes, but I used to live on that crap when I was younger and had an unreasonable metabolism. I'm happy to have a normal enough metabolism that I can eat and be full.
> 
> Lack of rest sucks. I have a nice paying, but high stress job and high stress home life. Still not sure how I made athletic improvements this year. My numbers were somehow better despite less training.


I have no issue with vegan diet. I like it a lot because I can hit the toilet regularly without grunting. But I do think that it takes a lot of know-how about eating enough veggie product so you get enough nutrition in you. I mean there are world class endurance athletes doing the vegan thing, or at least many of them are on a mostly high carb diet with maybe milk and eggs and some fish.

I will probably revert back to mainly vegetarian, but will also be keeping in mind of this ugly episode that I have experienced. No diet is going to make up for a lack of rest. Learning it the hard way here.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Well I don't want to get into a debate about nutrition in here all that much because nutrition is another whole topic deserving of its own thread.


There's even a sub-forum for that.

I have no problems with vegan diets done right. The problem is, many don't do it right - they haven't done their homework, and they can't stick with it over the longer term. Done right, it's perfectly fine. It's just much more challenging for performance athletes, but it certainly can be done. There is ample evidence in any pro sport. You sound like someone who has a good grasp on the matter, so I won't go further.

As far as your nutrition goes, I suspect a part of your issue in Asia was the combination of duration and intensity, and fueling under sustained effort as well as recovery. I am also guessing from your descriptions of yourself that you probably have and/or use more fast-twitch muscle than the average bear, and that you enjoy very low body fat, meaning your available reserves from adipose tissue are limited. That combination screams for ongoing refueling with higher levels of readily available carb than you are probably accustomed to anytime you're pushing for more than about an hour. Somewhere between an hour and two you will probably exhaust your glycogen reserves, and at that point you'd be limited pretty much to aerobic processes to fuel your muscles, leaving the fast-twitch share in the closet. 

For those kinds of sustained efforts you'll also want to assure that you're addressing your bodies recovery needs not only for energy sources, but for protein synthesis that is inherent in repair and maintenance of muscles, enzymes and hormones. Recovery isn't just resting - nutrition plays a very large part, and it's more than the energetic reserves.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> I have no issue with vegan diet. I like it a lot because I can hit the toilet regularly without grunting. But I do think that it takes a lot of know-how about eating enough veggie product so you get enough nutrition in you. I mean there are world class endurance athletes doing the vegan thing, or at least many of them are on a mostly high carb diet with maybe milk and eggs and some fish.
> 
> I will probably revert back to mainly vegetarian, but will also be keeping in mind of this ugly episode that I have experienced. No diet is going to make up for a lack of rest. Learning it the hard way here.


I've always been a high fiber kind of guy. I typically have a good morning dump at 6:15 on the nose. The problem is that don't get up until 7:00!!!

Kidding aside, I don't eat much meat. Typically more when I need a little recovery. Regardless of training phase, I don't think I could ever pass up my father in law's barleywine peppercorn steak, which is a brew pub take on a brandy peppercorn steak. Good thing I have some Healthy Choice soup tonight.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> I have no issue with vegan diet. I like it a lot because I can hit the toilet regularly without grunting. But I do think that it takes a lot of know-how about eating enough veggie product so you get enough nutrition in you. I mean there are world class endurance athletes doing the vegan thing, or at least many of them are on a mostly high carb diet with maybe milk and eggs and some fish.
> 
> I will probably revert back to mainly vegetarian, but will also be keeping in mind of this ugly episode that I have experienced. No diet is going to make up for a lack of rest. Learning it the hard way here.


Vegan and vegetarian are very different, it is far easier to eat a healthy diet as a vegetarian. A healthy vegan diet is certainly possible, but it takes a lot of effort and attention to make up for the nutritional deficiencies. Possible, just hard. Vegetarian is a thousand times easier.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> Vegan and vegetarian are very different, it is far easier to eat a healthy diet as a vegetarian. A healthy vegan diet is certainly possible, but it takes a lot of effort and attention to make up for the nutritional deficiencies. Possible, just hard. Vegetarian is a thousand times easier.


Vegan, including raw vegan, is just a variation of vegetarian diets. There are many other vegetarian diets that either include or exclude various food groups (ovo, lacto, ovo-lacto, Sattvic, Buddhist, macrobiotic). The difficulty in getting all the needed nutrients increases as the diet becomes more exclusive.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> This is Asia, and festivity means lots of food and drinking late into the night. We knew we would get our asses kicked the next morning, but in Asia that's the culture so we had no choice but to join in the festivity.


You understand that there are over 4 billion people and thousands of different cultures in Asia, right? 

There is no "Asian" culture. Nothing even remotely close.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> Gary Taubes is a highly controversial figure in the world of nutrition. He has books to sell. His degree is in physics, not nutrition. There are plenty and plenty of errors in his books and speeches. Recently, he has teamed up with Peter Attia to establish a diet foundation that pretty much pushes the ketogenic diet, and it's heavily funded by the meat industry and a young billionaire. .


I've meet Peter Attia, and while his point of view is highly imbedded with the ketogenic diet, he is an excellent scientist who wants to truly find truth in metabolism. At NUSI they have other researchers working with them on the research who's bias is not low carb centered. 

Basically I am pretty sure that Attia will truly go where the good data takes him. Taubes and Jimmy Moore have an agenda. 

Have you come across any of the work from Christopher Gardner from UC Davis I believe. He is a vegan and some of his low carb work supports the efficacy of that dietary approach. 

And finally, for a well designed low carbohydrate diet, LDL may be elevated, but that is obligatory factor. There is more to the outcomes from a dietary approach than the diet itself (insulin resistance, weight history, exercise pattern, gut micro-biota, genetics and epi-genstics).


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

jajichan said:


> You understand that there are over 4 billion people and thousands of different cultures in Asia, right?
> 
> There is no "Asian" culture. Nothing even remotely close.


In a way you're correct. It's like using the term "white man" or "yellow man" or "brown man" or "red man".. there is no really one white nor yellow nor red nor brown color. In fact, pretty much everything in the human existance is pretty much a mixture of something or some kind. But let me as you this, if a person said he's from Asia or he's from Europe or he's from South America, don't you already know what might that be? Certainly you will not expect a person from Asia to be eating corn-based bread at dinner every night.

And yes I understand Asia, I'm from there, worked there, has extensive family ties and friends there. I go back and forth between Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, and China quite often. You go to a Vietnamese house or a Thaihouse or a Chinese house as a guess, then you will be treated like a king unlike say in Europe or the US. And this stems from the traditional Confucious concept of "accepting your guest" (rough translation into English), and you can find this tradition filtered thru other Asian societies like Korean and Japanese too. So while there is no single monolithic homogenous "Asian culture" like you put it,.. but at the same time I believe you have totally missed my point of reference and loose application of the notion of "Asian culture" in this instance. Where are you from anyway? Where have you lived?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

sdeeer said:


> I've meet Peter Attia, and while his point of view is highly imbedded with the ketogenic diet, he is an excellent scientist who wants to truly find truth in metabolism. At NUSI they have other researchers working with them on the research who's bias is not low carb centered.
> 
> Basically I am pretty sure that Attia will truly go where the good data takes him. Taubes and Jimmy Moore have an agenda.
> 
> ...


Attia is probably the most logical of the lowcarbers. If there is one person from the lowcarb crowds that I'll listen to, it's him. I have read most of his blog "Eating Academy", and I can stand it. The rest of the lowcarber blog, I can't stand. However, even Peter Attia, in his personal blog, now acknowledges that high LDL is bad. Problem is that any NUSI funded study will be basically a meat/diary funded study via extension. I will not expect any NUSI study to come out with any result favoring vegetarian. So far, almost all of the "low carb" studies that I find on Medline or NIH database, are funded or have the hands of the meat/diary industry in them. Problem is that there is almost no benefit in doing nutritional research, and so the funding you're going to get is from those who stand to sell products, and that is the meat/diary industry. And you probably already know that in nutritional research, it is extremely easy to skew the experimental methods to get the result you want. Let's wait and see if NUSI can bring us a truely unbiased researach unaffilicated with the beef industry. I won't be holding my breath though.

The plant/veggie crowds have no major industry-scale funders. Those who advocates the veggie way pretty much has to rely on past epidemiological studies, but then you get the lowcarb folks making fun or in many many cases purposely try to skew the science of these any study favoring veggie. One notable example is the Ancel Keys study. It pains me to read internet hoards of lowcarb bloggers building minion making fun of Keys. The blogosphere of the lowcarb world is extremely painful to read if you're a scientific man.

I have not come across Christoperh Gardner from UC Davis.

But another UC guy (UCSF) Dr. Lustig, the anti-fructose doctor, I have listened to a lot of what he has said in public. Wathed a lot of his videos. Here is a reputable doctor who has (as of a few years ago) now thrown himself into this whole nutritional science game, and he as picked a side, and that side is the meat side, the lowcarb side.

I will agree with you that there is more to a diet than just the outcomes. Here is my issue. The lowcarb folks are mainly targetting people already with metabolic syndrome. Many of the videos show their "conference" always have a large portions of already obese and metabolically sick people. Yes, if you take metabolically sick person and feed them meat/fat and by doing this you hope to make them eat LESS calories (because protien/meat has the satiating effect), then I suppose one could call it "better".. compared to the junk-calorie diet they were on before. But understand that these obese people got to where they are not because they were eating and living a healthy vegetarian lifestyle. They were on a junk diet, and most likely had no concept of energy balance either. Many wrongs with those folks.

But if you take 2 diets, both being iso-energetic diet, I will take the highcarb anyday. And being an endurance athlete, I want a high-energetic diet. Now my pet peeve with the lowcarb folks are the ketogenic guys, they will say if we switch to almost exclusively fat metabolism, then we don't need carb. Ok fine. But no glycolysis means no peak power. Unless you plan to ride zone 2/3 all day long, you'l need glycolysis. They'll say other stuff like our brain will work fine using ketone bodies as fuel, as if that's what evolution intend us to do. ugh.. no. Using ketone is a last ditched effor to survice, as in starvation, and our brain will use ketones if that's all we make avail to it, but it's not what it prefers to use as a first option. Anyway, the whole low carb science, and the whole notion of discounting our glycolysis mechanism that evolution has spent litterally millions of years developing... just doesn't sit right with me. Just very hard to me to take the lowcarb science seriously.

I want to focus on how to be healthy from step 1. I don't want to become sick and then go the lowcarb way as a half-assed effort for help.

Note, I don't argue against eating meat in my stance. However, I question the whole lowcarb, especially the ketogenic, movement. Ketogenic is not new, it's been tried in the 1920s with epileptic patients, and these were sick individuals with a medical condition,.. and reports on the effect of keto diet on these people are horrible. Just horrible.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I want to plan my diet for a few days of downhill skiing. I am asking about it here, instead of elsewhere, since everyone who is reading this seems to know a lot about nutrition.

A few posts back, OP already answered my question about how to properly prepare for a major road race: eat lots of grains the night before, then eat my breakfast two hours before start of race. If race is long, bring along gels to eat mid-race.

My question is: does this really translate to downhill skiing?

Here is my proposed schedule.

I'll be skiing with my family.

7:30: eat breakfast

8:00: study

9:30: suit up

10:00: go up first lift

12:30: eat snack, be it gel or something else ( suggestions? )

1:00: ski hard

3:00: last run down

4:00: early dinner.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Alpine skiing really isn't an endurance sport, and many factors can affect how far a given fueling plan will go. For me, the two biggest contributors to fatigue are the temperature and what kind of skiing I'm doing. If it's cold, I'm burning more calories keeping the body warm. Also, I avoid heavy, hard-to-digest meals while I'm on the hill on cold days, because it your extremities will be colder. If I'm race training/coaching, the demands are significantly different than when I'm free-skiing. I've never felt more tired than after a full day of running gates. Free-skiing allows me to vary the intensity and forces I subject my body to.

Before a long day, I eat a fairly high-carb meal that provides sustainable energy (Samurai Cereal/strawberries works for me). I'll add some lean protein, but not too much. Throughout the day I'll go for small, easy-to-carry snacks like Honey Stingers or Fig Newtons, then have soup or stew for lunch. I save the beer and heavier food for afterwards.

Sorry, there's a lot of variables in play here. In general- stay hydrated, don't eat stuff that will weigh you down, and grab a snack here or there. Pretty much standard stuff across all sorts of sports.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I haven't read this thread but incase it wasn't mentioned: Simply sitting on a bicycle seat for too long if it hinders circulation (which many do despite maybe feeling comfortable) can impact that area too.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

myhui,
sorry I have no experience in the skiing stuff. I would imagine I'd be doing pretty much like what Mike Alaska said. Eat lots of carbs in the days leading to the event. Then eat easy to digest carbs (eg, fig newtons) during the event. Skiing (not counting cross country skiing) like you described seems to be a non-aerobic event, so the good thing about that is you'll have plenty of time to eat in between run.

jay,
i figured that numbness in that area is part of the game. No matter what seat I use, and I've used a lot of them, at the end of the day sitting 4+ hours for days on will numb your manhood, period. I'm considering doing shorter but much more intense rides because of this.

hey all,
just a quick update now that I'm posting here. I have now fully recovered. My weight is now 123-124 lbs, and I truely feel like a raging bull again. But so far I have stayed off the bike and eating like crazy. I have been doing mostly power exercises in the gym (squat, clean, bench, deadlifts, pullups). My plan is to get back into endurance training after Xmas. Then, I expect to shed a few pounds, not that I want to shed them! For sure the pounds will fall off if I revert back to doing 18+hrs/wk on the bike and doing the somewhat calorie-restricted vegan diet. But I will go back to vegan,..BUT.. this time I will NOT watch the calories.. I will even try to over-consume calories (which is very difficult to do if you're vegan AND eating low fat, so I'll probably need to add more fats back into my diet). Got to say, it has been an eye-opener for me about dieting and exercise at the extreme ends.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> jay,
> i figured that numbness in that area is part of the game. No matter what seat I use, and I've used a lot of them, at the end of the day sitting 4+ hours for days on will numb your manhood, period. I'm considering doing shorter but much more intense rides because of this.


A Selle SMP (because of the big cutout) might be worth a try if you haven't already. I do a lot of 6ish hour rides and have had zero issues with numbness or after effects in that area. I did have issues with other saddles.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> A Selle SMP (because of the big cutout) might be worth a try if you haven't already. I do a lot of 6ish hour rides and have had zero issues with numbness or after effects in that area. I did have issues with other saddles.


I tried the Selle superflow, still get numbness if I put in a sustained long hard effort, think 93-95% at threshold with lots of kickers where I continue to stay in the saddles, put tremendous pressure in the crotch area. I do get out of the saddle whenever I feel numbness creeping in though. I pretty much tilt every saddle I've owned downward, and this helped BIG time, even moreso than the cutouts. (Makes me wonder why the UCI does not allow tilted saddles?)

My saddle of choice is now the Prologo zero Pas due to its skinny nose section. I have a narrow hip and most saddles are made for bigger people with wider hips, and saddle with wider nose rubs my crotch area too much. If it's up to me, I would like a saddle with an extremely narrow AND short nose. Who sits at the tip of the nose anyway!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Alaska Mike said:


> Before a long day, I eat a fairly high-carb meal that provides sustainable energy (Samurai Cereal/strawberries works for me). I'll add some lean protein, but not too much. Throughout the day I'll go for small, easy-to-carry snacks like Honey Stingers or Fig Newtons, then have soup or stew for lunch. I save the beer and heavier food for afterwards.


Thanks for that advice. I couldn't find Sumurai Cereal, and it was too late to place a mail order, so I found another kind of cereal that has lots of raw seeds in it.

At the end of the second day of skiing, I had a huge crash into a snowboarder.

My daughter saw the whole thing. But I don't remember the crash, or the long time I took to put my skis back on. All I remember is skiing back to the condo.

While at the emergency clinic, they tested me for concussion, and I fit their diagnosis. I had short term memory loss. I had trouble recalling even my office email password or PIN code. All that came back slowly after I rested on their bed for an hour. They tested me again, and I passed the tests this time, so I was let go.

At the end of that hour, I told the doctor I don't feel any other injury on my body. It turns out my body was masking a lot of the pain. By the time I got up from the hospital bed, my left knee was sore, and overnight the knee became more and more stiff. This morning, the knee was worse.

I have a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACL_injury

Ironically, my daughter was using a http://www.kneebinding.com/KB-HomePage.aspx

She did fall earlier in the day, and it released smoothly with no injury at all. I don't remember how I fell. If I was using a Kneebinding, my ACL would be in better shape, but I would still have a concussion.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

is there major swelling of the knee? Man, every time I hear injury, I have nightmare about my own ACL


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> is there major swelling of the knee?


No, I can't feel the swelling, even though the doctor says there is swelling.

I adjust the spring tension of ski bindings myself, and I was on Volkl skis with the Marker bindings that usually comes with them, so the release probably wasn't that late.

Still, I wish I can remember the moment prior to release. That'll let me pinpoint whether having a lateral heel release would have helped.

Here's a note to you doctors interested in neurology: my daughter said that after I put on my skis and went downhill to meet her, I was uttering this non-stop: "Where are we? Where is the car? Where is our relatives?"

Hence, the brain was so scrambled that the motor control part was running disconnected from the other parts. I was able to ski, but unable to establish context on what I'm doing.

I stopped repeating those phrases once we reached the ski back trail to the condo, and that is when my memory of the event started.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

myhui said:


> Here's a note to you doctors interested in neurology: my daughter said that after I put on my skis and went downhill to meet her, I was uttering this non-stop: "Where are we? Where is the car? Where is our relatives?"
> 
> Hence, the brain was so scrambled that the motor control part was running disconnected from the other parts. I was able to ski, but unable to establish context on what I'm doing.
> 
> I stopped repeating those phrases once we reached the ski back trail to the condo, and that is when my memory of the event started.


Yep, that's what happens when you bump your head. I once clipped a joshua tree on my Xt-250 and came to wondering why I was in the desert, which way to go to get home, etc. Thank God I had helmet on.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I have been eating TeeChia Blueberry Date Gluten-Free, Super Seeds Cereal. It seems to work very well. I bought it at the local Mother's Market in SoCal.










This particular blend tastes bitter though. There is not even a hint of sweetness in it.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

But this is excellent news BBC News - Schumacher faces 'long fight' one year after skiing accident



> "It's going to be a long time," Sabine Kehm was quoted as saying.
> 
> Her comments came after a former racing driver said Schumacher was *beginning to communicate with his eyes*.
> 
> ...


So, yeah, I almost ended up like that. If I had a helmet cam on, I may be like that, or worse, by now.


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