# Specialized Tarmac OSBB, Campag UT, Praxis, adaptors etc, etc



## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

*Specialized Tarmac OSBB, Campag UT, Praxis, C-Bear, adaptors etc, etc*

Roadworthy summed things up so well in this topic:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/specialized/campy-crankset-specialized-osbb-answers-296570.html

But (as someone soon to be confronted with wanting to use Campag UT with OSBB) I would like to ask those running OSBB how they are getting on with the various adaptors on the market after some proper use?

I won't repeat all the grumbles about the ridiculous situation we are in with the non-threaded non-standard BB shell situation except to say that after 35 years cycling I am livid that us consumers have to put with up the farce of chasing solutions to a problem that has never needed to be created - ie the end of the almost perfect (IME) 68mm English threaded BB shell that worked brilliantly and accomodated any crank that was really ever needed. I have just replaced a UN71 on my SS MTB after 7 years of use - still spinning well but a tiny amount of play. Took about 5 minutes to remove the old, clean the shell threads and install the new (NOS UN72!) - with one tool and done - and I know it will be rock tight, silent and still rolling well in years to come. No creak no flex, no epoxy, no cr*p, no issues...

Anyway, I ask the above as I am looking to buy a Specialized Tarmac and it will either be a 2013/14 model (OSBB) or I might even just hold out and try and find a cherished 2011 just to still have a threaded Eng BB.

The one concern I have with the Praxis adaptor and little seems to be commented on this - is that although the aluminium main component is well executed it relies (for Campag UT) on still using Delrin bushes?! Surely this makes it liable for all the Delrin adaptor problems we read about?

Why do they not simply make a larger diameter adaptor for the thousands of us out there that want to use UT with a Tarmac?

And apart from Praxis which seems respected is there a solution that will allow a simple sleeve to be inserted to revert to an English 68mm threaded shell thus allowing the standard Campag UT cups to be installed? ie not the C Bear which uses different bearings.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

The problem is that the bearings are on the outside of the frame and just that design means they are going to work their way out. That is why the pressed in adapters tend to pull out. All kinds of solutions were used to prevent that, but in the long term, none seem to be a good way for everyone.

By having an adapter than cannot be pressed out, there is no way it will pull out. Praxis is one way since it holds inside the BB and with the cups, it will not pull out. You mentioned the use of Delrin bushings, yes, the Praxis uses their bushings. When used with an OSBB. They will not pull out because the BB conversion cannot pull out,

https://praxiscycles.com/wp-content/uploads/CAMPY-CONVBB-INSTR.pdf

C Bear does not use a different bearings since it is the same size as the Campagnolo bearings. It just comes with bearings. Although they are ceramic bearings which may be better than what you got, they're most likely are not better than the SR bearings. That is the turn off with that conversion, there is a thread that appears that they would sell you a conversion kit without bearings, but of course you'll need to look into that.

As for the thousands that would buy a larger adapter and not use the Delrin cups, I would say, there are not thousands out there than have that issue. There may be thousands that use the Campy UT crank and thousands that have OSBB, but not together.

I used the Parlee cups, they press into the OSBB without any bushings and they are holding just fine. Although, it has only been a few months, I think I'm good for life. I chose the Parlee because of their solution and their weight. Praxis was in the running, but due to their lack of a timeline, that was not a possibility. 

I think the best 100% solution is the Praxis.


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## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

Thank you for the very informative reply. I really need to think about this and which Tarmc to search out - I have read literally hundreds of topics across so many forums this past week regarding this whole subject and it makes for pretty miserable, soul destroying reading, as I say the whole thing is approaching a farce.

I really like the Praxis solution although the 145g weight penalty is a pain as is the cost. Sure we're not all weight weenies but that's a chunk of expensive weight to try and get back when you shouldn't have to...

From reading endless topics a constant theme is the use of Loctite 6xx series to fit delrin bushes - Praxis does not mention this, should the Delrin be fitted clean with Praxis?

Also, the rubber O ring installed with praxis would appear to be purely cosmetic, it cannot have any structural strength? Does this mean that the 'holding' power of the sleeve is all on the external expansion rather than laterally on the outside of the OSBB shell?

Why not make the O ring a stronger deformable alloy item to add resistance and therfore lateral clamping force to the installation?

The other point is that prior to all this (and as per the 2011 and earlier Spec' bikes) they all used bonded in aluminium sleeves with regular English thread - I realise this is a permanant fix but seeing as Campag and Shimano still continue to go with this as their main fitment choice is an aftermarket bonded sleeve a good choice? Did Specialized ever have any issues with factory bonded BB sleeves coming loose?

I note FSA make a simple one for BB30 but again I guess this is no good with the slightly different OSBB...

Wiggle | FSA BB30 Conversion Kit | Bottom Brackets

Issue being of course that the current OSBB is 61mm wide not 68mm. How was making the shell narrower ever a (nother) good idea?! 

Surely though it would be simple to make this sleeve with a wide flange and threaded LH cup to fit the other side and widen the BB - which is of course basically a good old threaded cartridge BB less the bearings that we all happily used for years...back to square one!


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

I've got close to 3k miles on the Praxis adapter for Shimano cranks and it's still dead silent. My suggestion would be to get a bike with the alloy sleeve (i.e., avoid carbon OSBB.) That means avoiding the S-Works frames prior to 2015. The new 2015 Tarmacs are all alloy sleeves, even on the S-Works.

The Praxis adapter is only 128g without the Delrin sleeve/bushings. You also have to look at total system weight. Threaded BB's have more material in the frame and I know with Shimano the BB itself is in the 70-80g range so I doubt there's much difference in the total system weight. That could be different with Campy though but I doubt it's more than ~50g.


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## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes, to be fair I forgot to take off the weight of the Campag OE cups which are not needed as the Praxis incorporates them so that brings it down to sub 100g.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

MaxSE said:


> Yes, to be fair I forgot to take off the weight of the Campag OE cups which are not needed as the Praxis incorporates them so that brings it down to sub 100g.


Actually, I believe with Campy the bearings are pressed onto the crank itself so Praxis omits them in their adapter. The Delrin sleeve/bushings are only needed on PF30/carbon OSBB. With BB30/OSBB like on my Roubaix SL4 no Delrin sleeve is needed.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

I believe the biggest issue with the Delrin sleeve is them coming out. It is impossible for them to come out because of the way Praxis conversion is designed. Since they cannot come out, there is no reason to put any kind of locktite or epoxy on them. So there is no longer an issue with any Delrin sleeve using the Praxis.

Of course, I would recommend to look at the instructions and see the video.

I was in your shoes earlier this year when I bought a SW Tarmac w/OSBB frame. There is no way I was not going to use Campagnolo and so I did my research. Came up with the same conclusions as you did [I'm doomed]. The fact is, you now have a Praxis solution available. I did not. The Parlee cups worked, but they did need shims Wheels Mfg Specialized FACT Bottom Bracket Spacer Kit to space them properly. I still feel I chose properly at the time. At the time, it was the lightest and cheapest option available.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason that you will have any issue with noises if you use Praxis or even C-Bear. The solution is available now. The previous search you have done was back then. 

I assisted someone with there PF30/Campagnolo issue. He is sold on the Praxis solution.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=126152


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## tommyturbo (Jan 24, 2002)

I have about 4000 miles on my 2014 SW Tarmac with a SR Ultratorque crankset. The bike was built with the C-Bear adapter, and the crank/BB has remained totally solid and silent. The C-Bear sleeve essentially turns the OSBB into a threaded-type BB. While it is not cheap, the product is of high quality. I don't know what the sleeve weighs, but perhaps someone else does?


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

I have a 2015 Tarmac and had an Ultegra crank put on today with a Praxis bottom bracket. You no longer need to use the Delrin sleeve with the Praxis as my bike is essentially BB30 now. You can use a standard Praxis bottom bracket now instead if the OSBB version.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

darwinosx said:


> You can use a standard Praxis bottom bracket now instead if the OSBB version.


FYI, OSBB is Specialized branding for BB30. For all intents and purposes it is identical to BB30. The Delrin sleeve is for PF30.

Specialized carbon OSBB (bare carbon BB shell) is slightly different than PF30.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Yes I know but I am saying you no longer have to tell Praxis that you need the OSBB version of their bottom bracket nor do you need the Delrin inserts.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

darwinosx said:


> Yes I know but I am saying you no longer have to tell Praxis that you need the OSBB version of their bottom bracket nor do you need the Delrin inserts.


The Delrin sleeve never mattered for BB30/OSBB, only for PF30/Carbon OSBB. For OSBB/BB30 it doesn't matter which one you order. I wasn't paying attention and ordered the regular Praxis BB30 adapter for my non S-Works Roubaix SL4 and it (obviously) works just fine.


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

This is what Praxis told me. So I guess this means the 2014 bikes were the first that did not require The Delrin sleeve not the 2015 

Yes.
The 2015 SBC road bikes are just BB30 frames (they still call it OSBB)...so you just install our ConvBB without the OSBB Delrin sleeves that are for the 2010-2013 SBC road bikes. 
We have a Frame Guide on the product page you can look at that shows this. 

Thanks!

THE PRAXIS TEAM


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

darwinosx said:


> This is what Praxis told me. So I guess this means the 2014 bikes were the first that did not require The Delrin sleeve not the 2015


Sort of, 2015 is the first year the Tarmac went to OSBB (from Carbon OSBB) on the S-Works versions. The regular Tarmac was, and still is, just regular OSBB/BB30. The 2015 Roubaix and Venge are still using Carbon OSBB on certain models. The Specialized branding makes it all pretty confusing.

Edit, and just to be clear Praxis includes the Delrin sleeve(s) on all of the Shimano adapters. You just don't use it on BB30/OSBB. The Specialized carbon OSBB adapters are two pieces vs. one piece adapters for PF30. That's why it doesn't matter which one you order for BB30/OSBB.

I know, it's clear as mud I'm sure...


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## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

Thanks again for the feedback on these systems.

I am nearly at the end of this topic below:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sp...e-osbb-campy-ultra-torque-crank-260617-7.html

An incredible amount of info on these discussions and 'Mads' seems to be the man with the lowdown on the C-Bear.

Just one point I am not clear about with C-Bear - as I am beginning to favour the ideal of this sleeve rather than Praxis so I can avoid any Delrin within the BB adaptor as it _must _be bearing a load somehow and we all know that over time Delrin will allow _some _movement or compression. In addition I like the idea of just going back to good old BSA threaded so I can fit Campag OE cups or Hollowtech or whatever.

As I understand it the C-Bear preference is for Italian cups so both turn RH on installation pulling the BB together - however:

1. I can see how this works for installation as you tighten them against each other but when removing cups one will *always *be much tighter that the other - if one is removed what is to stop the sleeve turning in the frame when all the force is applied on the second tighter cup?

2. I understand the driveside cup is pulled flush against the DS of the OSBB shell but does the C-Bear collar on the NDS exert force against the OSBB shell *or *the end of the adapter. If it is the shell, does this mean the collar is a larger diameter than the adapter and thefore the cup is tightened until it pushes the collar against the shell?

3. If not as above and the collar bottoms out on the adapter (with the NDS cup against it) then the adapter must be wider than the shell - in this case then there must be a small gap and what stops the adapter being able to potentially move laterally within the OSBB shell?

4. Lastly, I know they advise installing in a clean shell (no Loctite etc) but is it not better to use some kind of carbon installation paste or 'gap filler' (??) or gentle Loctite at least - if there should be tiny gaps in the installation surely creaking is possible?

5. Is it wise to fit a thin compressible O ring between adapter and shell?

6. Has anyone removed an adapter - what is the method?

7. And lastly, there was talk in an early topic of the adapter being a considerably tight (ie oversized) interferance fit and possiblly exerting too much force within the shell - any comments on this please?

Hope this makes sense!


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

I admire your research, but most of what you have looked into is old. There is nothing wrong with C-Bear or Praxis. Both are known to be quiet. There has not been any issues with either one.

Your concern about the Delrin cups is a non concern. Since they are pressed into the BB and the expanding collet design of the Praxis BB, it will not make noises. The noise coming from the older/other designs is because the cups are pressed in [not locked together]. The C-Bear and Praxis are locked together which will prevent any movement what so ever. If you want to remove the Praxis, it is easy, unscrew and it pulls out by hand. 

By using the C-Bear design, it is pressed into the BB. The odds of that design making noises is about the same as the Praxis [none]. If you want to remove the C-Bear, you are going to have to press it out. You're not going to want to press that out a lot without damaging the BB shell. Every time you go in or out there is a possibility of an issue.

You are correct that if you use the C-Bear design, you can use all kinds of cups/adapters in the future. But, the more pieces that you need to make it work, the more likely a failure will occur. 

So, as far as I'm concern, they both work without any noises. So, one is no better than the other for noises. One weights more than the other. One has more parts and come with bearings you may not need. One has more adaptability in the future. 

To answer questions #2, Yes. #4, No, cause no matter what anyone says, following the manufactures guidelines usually is a good thing. #5, No because of question #2. #6, you must press it out [and if you use locktite, well that won't make it easier]. #7, I will always have an issue pressing anything in a non metal sleeve. If it is too big, it will crack the housing. If it is too small, it will be loose. You will not be able to remove it without additional damage. If you screw it up the first time, well, the damage will most likely be the housing and not the adapter. I like the expanding collet design because of my issues with using a press.

If you think I'm sold on Praxis, I am. Less parts, lighter, cheaper, less intrusive, and easier to remove/service. Again, I understand about your issues with the Delrin cups, but you are truly off base with your assumptions. The expanding collet design will prevent any issues.

Fact #1, Both designs will NOT make noises. Focus on the other features what works for you. Either choice is a good one.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

I just gave my 2013 Roubaix SL4 Expert (threaded BB) a hug! :smilewinkgrin:


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

scottma said:


> I just gave my 2013 Roubaix SL4 Expert (threaded BB) a hug! :smilewinkgrin:


Me to!


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## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

Thanks chaps, and yes, you two above are very lucky! 

I asked this in my other topic but am struggling to find an answer - do the 2013 and 2014 Tarmac base model frames still come with the carbon OSBB shell in 46mm diameter x 61mm depth or is is the regular 68mm width (which I would presume is an alloy shell as previosuly and to which Spec' have reverted to for the new 2015 models)? Pretty sure the '13 is 61mm but was not sure on the '14...


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

A quick search at the Specialized website will give you the answer you are looking for. 

No time to do that for you. 

Hint...They all use a BB30 crankset.


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## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

Hi, spoke to Specialized themselves (I have looked at the website many times and unfortunately they only quote their all encompassing "OSBB" without reference to further detail - as we know OSBB can mean BB-30 or PF-30 or the Specialized narrower versions or carbon shell or carbon shell with alloy insert etc etc!).

Even they did not know but did say that the 2014 Tarmac had a running change to alloy sleeve from bare carbon 46mm x 61mm.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

OSBB can come with Carbon or not. Every frame listed that has a Carbon OSBB is listed that way. The others are listed as OSBB.

The carbon OSBB came on the big dollar frames and what your looking for, it will not have a carbon OSBB.


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## MaxSE (Aug 27, 2014)

Hi, sadly it's not that simple. As noted above and in so many topics including the ones linked in this thread (see post#15) there are various options within the nomenclature that Specialized chooses to use - ie 'OSBB'. Regardless of high end or not, all Tarmac frames from recent years are 'OSBB' but as I say that only tells you it is an oversized BB not the width, *specific *type or insert etc.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

All I saw was that Specialized calls a Carbon OSBB a 'Carbon OSBB'. They also call the aluminum version 'OSBB'. Clear to me.

Again, they seem to have only offered the Carbon OSBB on their most expensive frames. Since you are not looking into those, then it is safe to say you will not get a Carbon OSBB. If that is the case, then the Delrin bushings that you are concerned with, is nothing to be concerned with.

Research is fun, but sometimes you have to read between the lines. What other manufacturers call Specialized BB is not Specialized fault.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

You're making this more complicated than you need to. Pick a specific bike, link me to it on the Specialized website and I'll tell you which adapter to order.


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## reydin (Jun 2, 2009)

I have been using the Specialized recommended Delrin adapter to run my Record UT crank set in a 2012 S-Works SL4 Tarmac for the better part of two years with no issues what so ever.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Dunbar said:


> You're making this more complicated than you need to. Pick a specific bike, link me to it on the Specialized website and I'll tell you which adapter to order.


I'll play...

Specialized Bicycle Components

In the Frame listing it says Carbon OSBB, but then in bottom bracket description it says Hope, BB30.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

The Carbon OSBB is just that, all carbon. When you use the Delrin plastic sleeve/spacer, you must use BB30 adapter. 

In a nut shell, the sleeves size it to the BB30 standard.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

1Butcher said:


> The Carbon OSBB is just that, all carbon. When you use the Delrin plastic sleeve/spacer, you must use BB30 adapter.
> 
> In a nut shell, the sleeves size it to the BB30 standard.


I just need the standard OSbb one thought right... the one that costs $85, not the ceramic one?


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

Yeah, unless you remove the Delrin spacer/shims.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

If you go with the Praxis adapter make sure you buy the Specialized version. The Delrin adapters are two piece in the Specialized application vs. one piece in PF30. The Venge is unique in that I believe all frames are carbon OSBB. Even the basic 105 equipped model. Even if by some weird circumstance it's BB30 than the Praxis adapter will still work (you just don't use the Delrin cups.)


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## TSW910 (Aug 8, 2012)

Right .. so the sku # should read something like this - 68-3002 or for ceramic 68-5002


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## SundayNiagara (Apr 17, 2014)

TSW910 said:


> Right .. so the sku # should read something like this - 68-3002 or for ceramic 68-5002


And the difference between steel & ceramic bearings is?


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Ceramic bearings supposedly have less friction and last longer. Not worth an extra $110 IMO. The fit will be identical with steel or ceramic bearings.


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## 1Butcher (Mar 15, 2011)

But look at the extra speed you'll get with ceramics. An added bonus is that they are lighter too!

But to be serious, Dunbar is spot on.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Dunbar said:


> Ceramic bearings supposedly have less friction and last longer. Not worth an extra $110 IMO. The fit will be identical with steel or ceramic bearings.





1Butcher said:


> But look at the extra speed you'll get with ceramics. An added bonus is that they are lighter too!
> 
> But to be serious, Dunbar is spot on.


Do you guys really think ceramic bearings don't make a difference? I don't have any experience with them in the bike world (yet) but in every other place I've seen them used... automotive applications like turbos, or go karts, roller blade wheels etc... they have made a big difference.


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