# Braking downhill



## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

First off, I'm a fairly new rider that lives in a relatively flat area. There are a couple of steep climbs, ones that can get you going... well, let's just say that going downhill I can get to the low 30's instantly and I could imagine 50 mph is not out of reach.  The problem I have is that the road has some blind turns and is fairly narrow, so I'm not confident enough to reach the higher speeds. There are other hills that I'm fine going 40 mph due to the lack of turns. Here's my problem:

I'm planning on a HC climb that will leave me with a 5500 foot descent. Is it possible that my brakes might catch on fire? I'm worried that if I'm riding the brakes for 15+ miles, there might be some damage. The descent doesn't seem steep and there's enough straightaways that I figure 40+ mph should be the norm. I'm using Mavic K10 wheels and stock pads (thinking about putting SwissStop pads on before the ride). 

You would think that I would dread the climb, but althought I know that a long climb is going to suck, I'm more concerned with getting back down the mountain. Is there a technique that I can use to save my equipment? :idea:


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

1) don't ride the brakes
2) alternate left/right left/right, etc
3) brake hard for short bursts, not soft for long periods
4) stop for awhile and take a nature break
5) use your body to slow you down by putting your chest out in the wind for a bit
6) pack a parachute


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

Terminal velocity is your friend. Sit up, catch the wind with your body and you'll hit a max and stay there. 

+1 on not riding the brakes. Shorter hard braking before the curves etc. But, maybe take a peek behind you to see if someone is there. If so, throw them a warning before a short hard brake. (or shake them off your tail first)

Ask around your local club and see if there is someone who loves descents. If so, learn from them. See if you can follow them down your local "tough fast descent", cause you can learn a lot from an someone who is good just by following. 
Confidence and remember to look where you want to go.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I think OP is right on to be super cautious on a long descent with blind corners, etc. There's a time to be confident to tolerate greater speed, but there's a time to learn how to control speed without overheating his rims, etc. The idea of using the body as an air brake is really important. Unless you're trying to go a little faster, just sit upright and keep your elbows and knees out (of course, in a stable, ridable position, I'm just contrasting to the tucked position used to increase speed). 

Have fun above all.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

bwhite_4 said:


> 2) alternate left/right left/right, etc.


I am not sure I agree with this.


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## Irch (Mar 15, 2011)

Here's the technique I learned when I used to ride motorcycles. I have found that it applies every bit as much to the bicycle.
1 
Use both brakes each time you slow down or stop. If you use only the rear brake, you may never learn how to use the front brake properly when you need it.

2 
Squeeze the front brake and press down the rear brake smoothly, gradually increasing pressure as needed. Jerking the front brake or hitting the rear brake hard can cause the brakes to lock up, resulting in skids and control problems.

3 
Apply both brakes simultaneously. Many riders believe the rear brake should be applied first. On the contrary, the sooner you apply the front brake, the sooner you slow down.

4 
Complete your braking before entering a turn, when possible. If you need to brake when turning, you can use the front, as well as the rear, brake, as long as the road isn't very slippery and you apply the brakes gently - you've less traction available for braking when you're leaning the bike.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

Don't get carried away with the feeling of speed. Never, never push your level of control.

I did both in 1974. Wrecked the bike and flew through the air missing a telephone pole by 3 feet. Walked away in one piece.

I didn't touch a bicycle for 35 years. No nightmares, just never though about bicycles or riding. 

Even if you don't kill yourself, a bad descent can ruin cycling for you.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Which descent is it? If it's in north america chances are someone here has ridden it and can tell you what the descent is like.

Unless it has long sections that are steep and have tight turns, or you ride your brakes the whole way down, you are unlikely to overheat aluminum rims. If you do, either the brake pads will melt or the tire will come off the wheel. But you really have to abuse an aluminum rim to do that.

If you brake for the turns but get off the brakes to let them cool on the straights, you should be fine. 

If you're going to change the brake pads, test them on descents before the big ride.


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## speedyg55 (Jun 11, 2009)

Irch said:


> Here's the technique I learned when I used to ride motorcycles. I have found that it applies every bit as much to the bicycle.
> 1
> Use both brakes each time you slow down or stop. If you use only the rear brake, you may never learn how to use the front brake properly when you need it.
> 
> ...


Good advice, except for part of number 4. One thing I've learned mountain biking, which is directly applicable to road biking, is that you don't use your front brake through turns. The reason being is that applying the front brake through a turn decreases traction and makes it much more likely that you'll wash out. If you lose your front wheel, you crash. On the other hand, if you accidentally lock up your rear wheel, you'll slide around a bit, but it's very possible to recover without crashing.


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## CyclingVirtual (Apr 10, 2008)

Back to the original post, if you do overuse a brake on a single wheel the only likely problem you may get is a blowout. I know of riders who has melted the glue on a patched inner tube and it goes down.

So dont use patched tubes in this scenario.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

speedyg55 said:


> One thing I've learned mountain biking, which is directly applicable to road biking, is that you don't use your front brake through turns. The reason being is that applying the front brake through a turn decreases traction and makes it much more likely that you'll wash out.


Even that may "depend" on the exact situation.

Sometimes you are already going slowly enough, like when you had to slow down to see what is around the blind corner. If some use of brakes is needed to maintain that low speed, using both brakes may be the best idea.

I totally agree that using the front brake in a turn when there is the slightest doubt about traction is a bad idea.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

As bwhite and Mmoose pointed out - sitting up will scrub off lots off speed - to varying degrees too...
- Sit up... tall
- Flare your elbows
- Get those knees out... wide

It's amazing how much speed that'll dump. As a side note... it's amazing that lots of guys ride like that on a regular basis ;-)

As a mountain biker (not sure that actually makes a difference though...) front braking is definitely a thing to be finessed. Keep in mind, that while I think you should use both brakes at the same time - squeeze & release, squeeze & release NOT riding them lightly - I think you can certainly use the front brake in turns... just not as much as the rear. Obviously, this all dependent on the speed, radius of turn, etc. 

Have fun! Sounds like a great ride.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Tschai said:


> I am not sure I agree with this.


I get your logic, but if you're just using your rear to control speed on a long descent, then it shouldn't cause any problems.


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

ericm979 said:


> Which descent is it? If it's in north america chances are someone here has ridden it and can tell you what the descent is like.
> 
> Unless it has long sections that are steep and have tight turns, or you ride your brakes the whole way down, you are unlikely to overheat aluminum rims. If you do, either the brake pads will melt or the tire will come off the wheel. But you really have to abuse an aluminum rim to do that.
> 
> ...


The ride is Kyle Canyon Rd. (Mt. Charleston, NV). On MapMyRide it shows a 22 mile climb w/ 5600 feet of elevation change. I plan on doing an out and back w/ the steepest section being at 17-19 miles into the climb, the beginning is 3-4% for the first 10 miles. Steepest looks to be 8%. 

I talked to a very experienced rider and he told me that it's mostly straight without any blind turns which makes me feel better, but he also told me that he's been over 50 mph going down that same mountain. Not sure if I'm ready for that.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Best bit of advice I can give you about descending: relax and have fun! If you tense up, you're more likely to lose control. If you feel your bike start to shimmy, touch your knees to the top tube. If you keep spinning while going down, you're less likely to have your bike get one.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

new2rd said:


> he's been over 50 mph going down that same mountain. Not sure if I'm ready for that.


He went that fast because he wanted to.


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## The English Hacker (May 30, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> As bwhite and Mmoose pointed out - sitting up will scrub off lots off speed - to varying degrees too...
> - Sit up... tall
> - Flare your elbows
> - Get those knees out... wide
> ...


That's what I've been doing wrong!


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## new2rd (Aug 8, 2010)

CyclingVirtual said:


> Back to the original post, if you do overuse a brake on a single wheel the only likely problem you may get is a blowout. I know of riders who has melted the glue on a patched inner tube and it goes down.
> 
> So dont use patched tubes in this scenario.


No tubes for me, I'm running tubeless (Hutchinson Intensive Tubeless on Mavic K10's). I feel better about the downhill riding. It's still a little far off, but I'll post when I finish. Has anyone been on this route?


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## KipDRunner (Mar 13, 2008)

Pedal Harder


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## nhluhr (Sep 9, 2010)

Your brakes definitely won't catch on fire but they stand a strong chance of fading or causing heat-related damage to the rim, tube, or tire, including the possibility of a blowout which could be catastrophically bad for you.

To mitigate these risks, the advice given above is excellent. Letting air do the braking is super effective. It may require you go a little faster but you'll build far less heat in the braking system (pads and rims) and thus they will be available for you in case you REALLY need them. As a newbie descender, I would strongly recommend not attempting to brake through the corners if you're unsure about the traction circle and the handling characteristics of your bike.

That said, I did a 5000ft descent yesterday with plenty of hairpins, s-curves, etc. I passed a number of motor vehicles on the way down including sightseeing RVs, timid SUVs, etc. Descending is one of the biggest rushes of cycling but it's also extremely dangerous so keep your wits about you.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

perttime said:


> Even that may "depend" on the exact situation.
> 
> Sometimes you are already going slowly enough, like when you had to slow down to see what is around the blind corner. If some use of brakes is needed to maintain that low speed, using both brakes may be the best idea.
> 
> I totally agree that using the front brake in a turn when there is the slightest doubt about traction is a bad idea.


If you are braking in the apex of the turn because you overcooked the corner, all braking will do is ensure you slide into the guardrail on your butt rather than flip over it as you run into it. Physics will not be denied her prize, and braking steals traction needed to keep the bike on line.

Absent special circumstances like decreasing radius corners or off-camber runouts, any corner you can brake through is a corner you could have also not braked through. The meaty part of braking has to happen beforehand. A light brake to keep the speed off is one thing, but active deceleration is something other. Certainly you can brake into the turn, but if you aren't letting off by the time you hit the apex, you are either going down, or didn't need to slow quite that much. (not that there's anything wrong with being conservative) 

That's pretty much true both front and rear, though the front is more sensitive to modulate and because it can impact steering flop, is useful to approach with more care, or just stay clear of in turns.

OP: As has been said, stay up in the wind, go until you need to slow, then do it relatively decisively. Repeat as needed. Do not drag the brake down.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

danl1 said:


> A light brake to keep the speed off is one thing, but active deceleration is something other. Certainly you can brake into the turn, but if you aren't letting off by the time you hit the apex, you are either going down, or didn't need to slow quite that much. (not that there's anything wrong with being conservative)


Sometimes traction is not the main, or only, reason to slow down.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I have not ridden that descent but I have done a lot of similar descents in the eastern sierras. Usually there is not a lot of braking needed, compared to other descents I do in the bay area. I do them on my carbon clinchers which can't withstand heavy braking, and it's not a problem. You should be fine.

If you get going too fast on the straights you can sit up (with hands still on the drops) instead of tucking in. Unless you are trying to be aero it's difficult to get over 45 mph on an 8% grade.

Also, bring a jacket or vest on the ride. Its often cold at the tops of climbs like this and the extra aero drag will slow you down some more.


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## bruce_wayne (Apr 30, 2010)

If you've got a lot of turns on your descent, maybe anticipate and look ahead up (down?) the road as far as possible.
I got a few descents with hairpin curves that can SNEAK up on you. If I relax too much on the straightaways my speed can run out on me pretty quickly, then the turn approaches and I have to jump on my brakes pretty hard (this will test your nerves). I've found when descending applying brakes a fraction of a second (or maybe a second) later can make a big difference in how much speed I carry into the turn and how hard I have to apply the brakes to reduce speed so be conservative as others suggested. 
Also, if you're doing significant braking on a 15-mile descent, I'd be willing to bet your arms will be pretty sore when you reach the bottom.
Have fun!


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

perttime said:


> Sometimes traction is not the main, or only, reason to slow down.


That would be the 'special circumstances'. Unless there's something in the lane or a blind corner that doesn't let you know, yeah, it pretty much is.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

+1 alternate braking. 

Taht's usually how those carbon hoops end up melting to many's dismay.


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## Shinjukan (Aug 22, 2011)

Anyone knows where I can buy a pocket parachute? It may be funny and weird but hey, if that's what's gonna save my skin on those hair-raising descents, I'll take it.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

When entering a corner scan the road surface for debris, gravel, bumps, etc. Put ALL your weight on the outside pedal. Try to break it off. Slightly push forward on the bar in the direction you wish to turn. If you want to turn left, push the left side of the handlebar slightly forward. Do the opposite for right turns. An easy way to remember it is to practice saying, "Push left to go Left, push right to go right. Most important of all *DO NOT LOOK WHERE YOU'RE GOING! EVER!* Always look where you want to go. It's not enough to look with your eyes; you *MUST *turn your head. When you look at a spot your natural eye-hand coordination will take you directly to that spot. That's why it's so important to look where you want to go. This is surprisingly hard to do on a 2 wheeled vehicle. It feels very natural in a car, but not on a bike. If you're going into a high speed corner that has a guard rail & you look at the guard rail...guess what? If you avoid hitting the guard rail you will have been very fortunate. Remember; don't look where you're going. Turn your head, not just your eyes, and look down the road where you want to go.


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## Shinjukan (Aug 22, 2011)

+1 on what Mr. Versatile wrote. Although any cyclist who wish to be better on descents must put in a lot of training hours trying to perfect that skill. For an average cyclist, it's easier said than done. When the cyclist is tackling a steep descent with a lot of unknowns (curves, hairpins, hazards, etc.) there's a lot of things to process, all in the blink of an eye. Add to that any previous negative experiences, the on-going what-ifs, the familiarity of the route and the longer distance of the descent makes an inexperienced rider feel like it's going to be their last.

Pros joining a big league Tour have all the advantages stacked to their favor--closed route, tour organizers making sure that the routes that will be used are generally safe, and backed up by their team fielding its own trainers, mechanics, and other support staff. Ordinary cyclists like us don't have that luxury so basically we're on our own out there.

The way I approach a descent is this: Find out if there's another way besides tackling this steep descent. If this is the only way then I make sure I never go above the speed I can control. And I always think that I'd rather let my brakes wear out rather than my face and body.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

just relax, release the brakes and enjoy it.

Watch a few old GP500 grand prix before with Kevin Schwantz outbraking everybody. Then you'll enjoy the late braking madness with the rear wheel raising from the ground. Just keep a small margin of error, just in case.


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## T.J (Sep 13, 2011)

yes, as said, dont ride the brakes, and i wouldn't advocate switching between front and rear brake alternatively as it could cause some unwanted instability. creating as much resistance is good - i.e sitting up etc.


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## Ripton (Apr 21, 2011)

If your'e on an out and back route pay attention to what the road surface is like on the way up. There's little point in being in control if you find yourself on a section of pot holes, cracks or green stuff mid corner. 

I'm sceptical on the alternate braking thing. As stated above use your body to control your top speed, then brake hard but not excessively with both brakes in the approach to a corner. Minimal time on the brakes will keep you from overheating. If you're confident of the surface, and you have to brake in the corner use both. 

Don't be worried about braking too hard on the straight (as long as you're in control), it's easier to ease off than it is to realise you've not braked hard enough. You'll soon work out what your comfortable with. You'll also find that you can brake harder and later than you expected and that, if required, you can lean your bike over further than you realised.

Once you get more comfortable with braking and cornering at speed and want to start descending faster you might want to give some thought to vanishing point technique. It's primarily aimed at getting through corners quickly in a car or on a motorbike but it's also useful for judging whether a corner has an increasing, constant or more importantly decreasing radius.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

danl1 said:


> That would be the 'special circumstances'. Unless there's something in the lane or a blind corner that doesn't let you know, yeah, it pretty much is.


Depending on where you ride, something in the lane behind a blind corner could be a likely situation. Evidently, that is not the situation for the OP, though.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Ripton

Nice link on vanishing point! Best advice on here.

Wish I knew how to give rep!


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Ha!
Figured it out - you got rep!


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## Ripton (Apr 21, 2011)

BacDoc said:


> Ripton
> 
> Nice link on vanishing point! Best advice on here.
> 
> Wish I knew how to give rep!


Thanks and thanks for the rep. I use it driving and used to really rely on it when I had a motorbike. It's great for improving your ability to read a corner. All the stuff about exiting corners is less applicable but it's real worth to a cyclist is as an indicator of how tight a corner is in relation to your speed and giving you warnings of decreasing radius. If you think you've got your entry speed right and then find out that the radius decreases (corner gets tighter) when your already deep into it, you could be in trouble. With VP, you'll get more warning.

I learnt it from a UK Police Motorcyclists handbook years ago. There's stacks of stuff on it on the web including some videos that might help on you. There's bound to be some rubbish on there too, though.


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## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

I was told by wheel builder that if you brake less than 30 seconds at a time, you won't overheat your brakes. That works pretty well unless you are on a really tight curvy 20% grade. It at least gives me a thought to keep me from riding the brakes.


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## Ben M (Sep 13, 2011)

When going downhill I sit up to slow down so I'm not as streamlined.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

new2rd said:


> First off, I'm a fairly new rider that lives in a relatively flat area. There are a couple of steep climbs, ones that can get you going... well, let's just say that going downhill I can get to the low 30's instantly and I could imagine 50 mph is not out of reach.  The problem I have is that the road has some blind turns and is fairly narrow, so I'm not confident enough to reach the higher speeds. There are other hills that I'm fine going 40 mph due to the lack of turns. Here's my problem:
> 
> I'm planning on a HC climb that will leave me with a 5500 foot descent. Is it possible that my brakes might catch on fire? I'm worried that if I'm riding the brakes for 15+ miles, there might be some damage. The descent doesn't seem steep and there's enough straightaways that I figure 40+ mph should be the norm. I'm using Mavic K10 wheels and stock pads (thinking about putting SwissStop pads on before the ride).
> 
> You would think that I would dread the climb, but althought I know that a long climb is going to suck, I'm more concerned with getting back down the mountain. Is there a technique that I can use to save my equipment? :idea:


Coming from CO and having been down such descents many times--Your brakes will not catch on fire. Worst case is yoo heat the rims up enough to blow a tube. Just pump your brakes and you'll be fine. Don't ever ride them. Sit up if you want to slow down. Brake hard before the corner, not in it. Stop worrying so much--you'll be fine.


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## MusicBike (Sep 14, 2011)

wow, i didn't know there was so much about braking lol


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

Speaking of breaking downhill ...

There's a rather steep ascent I've been doing a bit this year (first time on an actual road bike; many times on my old mountain bike). Coming down on the old mountain bike was a blast. Coming down at speed on the road bike, I came to learn, is rather fast. I almost hit 50mph nearing the first turn. And unlike the mountain bike, the road bike doesn't want to slow down as fast. And I found out why I saw so many TdF riders go off the road on all_ their_ wild descents.

It's tricky. You don't want to apply the brakes too hard, otherwise you'll lock up the wheels and lose it, crash and burn. You don't apply enough pressure on the brakes, you're going to be going to fast to make the turn.

And then you have to watch out for sand and other small debris that those skinny, high pressure tires will lose it on.

It's fun but unnerving.


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## ghmartin (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm a fairly new rider, and trying to get more comfortable braking down steep hills. I've read multiple posts that advise feathering the brakes, but I'm unclear on whether the advice is to feather both your front and back brake at the same time, or to alternate between the two. Any advice?


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## siclmn (Feb 7, 2004)

BOTH brakes at the same time. Unless you ride a Harley, then you just use the rear until you lock it up and skid and "lay er down".


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