# Scott Foil Geometry



## secteur

Need some help with those of you that have or are familiar with the Foil.
I am a 51 year old rider relatively new to road cycling. Bought an entry level relaxed geometry bike this summer and really enjoy the sport.
Plan to buy something a bit better in terms of frame and components this spring and leaning toward a Cannondale Synapse. THat is until I came across what I consider to be a nice deal on a Foil 40. My concern with the Foil is riding position for someone my age and whether I will be able to get comfortalbe on a more race oriented bike like this. I rode it for about 5 miles and it seems to ride far better than my aluminum bike but the bars are definately lower than mine. Is this whole geometry thing a way to get old guys to buy a different bike and can we do just about as well with a great ride like the Foil? I ride recreationally 20 - 40 miles and have no intention of racing. Do want to improve my stringth and speed to do more group rides.
Thank You


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## smoo

secteur said:


> Need some help with those of you that have or are familiar with the Foil.
> I am a 51 year old rider relatively new to road cycling. Bought an entry level relaxed geometry bike this summer and really enjoy the sport.
> Plan to buy something a bit better in terms of frame and components this spring and leaning toward a Cannondale Synapse. THat is until I came across what I consider to be a nice deal on a Foil 40. My concern with the Foil is riding position for someone my age and whether I will be able to get comfortalbe on a more race oriented bike like this. I rode it for about 5 miles and it seems to ride far better than my aluminum bike but the bars are definately lower than mine. Is this whole geometry thing a way to get old guys to buy a different bike and can we do just about as well with a great ride like the Foil? I ride recreationally 20 - 40 miles and have no intention of racing. Do want to improve my stringth and speed to do more group rides.
> Thank You


There is no way that anyone can give you specific advice on what sort of riding position will suit you simply based on age and time riding. There are plenty of 51 year olds who can adopt a very aggressive racing position and plenty of 25 year olds with no flexibility whatsoever, it just depends on genetics, lifestyle, fitness, anatomy and a whole host of other things. I will be 47 in about a month's time and have no problem with a 7.5cm saddle to bar drop, but plenty of others will differ.

The Foil (I have one) has a race-orientated geometry but I don't think it's any more aggressive than most other standard road bikes. A lot depends on frame sizing and how a particular frame size matches with your proportions. One important thing to bear in mind when looking at geometry charts however is that the fork on the foil is about 1cm longer than on most other bikes (it's 379mm rather than the more normal 367-369mm), so the headtube lengths give the impression that the position is lower than it actually is. So the 140mm headtube on a Medium (54) size Foil is roughly equivalent to a 150mm headtube on a bike with a 368mm fork.

The thing to do would be to set up your current bike with a greater saddle-to-bar drop and ride it for a week or two to see how you get on with it. If the bike has a tall headtube and you can't get low enough even after removing all of the spacers you might need to get a stem with a steep angle (e.g. 17 degrees) to get the bars lower. 

What frame and frame size are you riding at the moment and what frame size of Foil would you be looking at?


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## secteur

Appreciate the response SMOO you are right there is no way anyone can give me what riding position will suit me. What I was looking for was experience from others who may be in a similar position to me. I am reasonably fit but have a ways to go, in terms of flexability I would rate myself as good or better than most my age. My current ride is a 56cm and the Foil I rode is a 54 cm, I am 5'10 170 lbs


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## Fireform

I'm 53, 5"10 and I ride a 52cm Foil 10 with a 110mm, 17 degree stem, if that makes any difference at all. It's the right size for me. I can still ride a pretty aggressive geometry for someone my age and be comfortable on it. My other road bike is a 52cm CAAD 10.

Not everyone in his or her fifties is going to be comfortable on that kind of geometry, and it's really an individual thing. Also, unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to tell what you're going to be best suited for in the long term with a short test ride. The first impression might be good, but it's how you feel at the end of a long day in the saddle that counts. 

I can ride a 54 frame too, but often feel it's a little big for me. My last bike was a 54cm Cervelo S3 which I rode with a 100mm stem, and often felt it was a little long in the reach.


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## smoo

secteur said:


> My current ride is a 56cm and the Foil I rode is a 54 cm, I am 5'10 170 lbs


What model is your current bike? If there is a geometry chart for it we could compare it to the Foil geometry and work out how much the stack and reach will differ.



Fireform said:


> I'm 53, 5"10 and I ride a 52cm Foil 10 with a 110mm, 17 degree stem, if that makes any difference at all. It's the right size for me.





Fireform said:


> I can ride a 54 frame too, but often feel it's a little big for me.


I'm 5'9" and have a 54 Foil with 110mm stem - definitely the right size for me, which just highlights the importance of personalized fitting. 

Also, if the size that fits you in terms of reach is a smaller size, the headtube will be shorter and the setup potentially more aggressive than on a larger size.


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## secteur

My current bike is a 56cm specialized Secteur. I noticed on my bike the relationship from the seat to bars is relatively flat, believe the stem as at +8 degrees. On the Foil I rode I seem to remember the bars being quite a bit lower than the seat. Guess I could pick up some of that with a steeper stem but dont want it to look like a Fred either.LOL


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## smoo

secteur said:


> My current bike is a 56cm specialized Secteur. I noticed on my bike the relationship from the seat to bars is relatively flat, believe the stem as at +8 degrees. On the Foil I rode I seem to remember the bars being quite a bit lower than the seat. Guess I could pick up some of that with a steeper stem but dont want it to look like a Fred either.LOL


Here are the geometries of the 56cm Secteur and the 54cm Foil compared using one of the online geometry calculators:









The geo chart for the Secteur actually gives stack and reach, although it doesn't give fork length, but the fork length that makes the stack correct is 370mm to the nearest mm.

I have assumed a 110mm, 8 degree stem and 37mm of spacers, headset & stem - the latter measurement is the total height of any spacers, plus the height of the headset top cap, plus /half/ the stack height of the stem. 37mm is what I have on my Foil with the standard Foil headset and a 1cm spacer below the stem.

If you can tell me what spacers/headset stack you have on the secteur as well as the stem length, I can put these in instead.

But _assuming the same stem and spacers_, the reach on a 54cm Foil would be almost identical to the 56cm Secteur, but the bars would be 4cm lower, which is quite a lot.

Of course you could add some spacers to the Foil to bring the bars up a bit - if you currently have few or no spacers on the Secteur you could make the Foil much closer to the Secteur this way. But if you already have lots of spacers on the Secteur, your scope for making the bars on the Foil higher is more limited, because there is a limit to the number of spacers you can have.

Note that one reason the reach is so similar on the two bikes despite the different top tube lengths is that the Secteur has such a tall headtube - if you brought the bars on the Foil up to the same height as on the Secteur, the reach would actually end up being a bit over 1cm less, so you would probably want to fit a longer stem (120mm instead of 110mm, 110mm instead of 100mm, or whatever).

I would certainly say that given your height, and if you are comfortable with the reach on the Secteur, the 54cm Foil is the right size Foil for you. It all just depends on whether you could adapt to the lower bar height and/or raise the bars on the Foil with spacers to a height you are comfortable with.


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## secteur

SMOO you are awesome!
this is some great information, thank you for taking the time to put all this together!
my current stem has all the spacers under plus I have the stem at +8. Going to be a big difference between the current ride and the Foil in ba
r height!


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## smoo

secteur said:


> my current stem has all the spacers under plus I have the stem at +8. Going to be a big difference between the current ride and the Foil in ba
> r height!


Is the stem "flipped", i.e. is the 8 degree slope up or down? But yes, if you already have a bunch of spacers under the stem there is going to be a big difference in bar height with the Foil whatever you do. But you could still try removing all of the spacers from the secteur and installing a low-profile headset top cap to see how you get on with that first.


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## secteur

Flipped up so it's plus 8 degrees now. My saddle isn't much higher than the tops of the bars


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## Uncle Jam's Army

I don't think this frameset is for you. It's a very aggressive geometry, with shortish head tubes. If you're running a flipped up stem, you're probably going to have to run a very tall stack of spacers under your stem. The new Scott Solace may be something to look at.

The alternative is to keep riding until you can ride your Secteur with no spacers under the stem and the stem flipped down (negative 8).


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## dje31

Given your age and experience in road cycling, and that you're considering a Synapse ( my current ride, and I'm 48, but ridden most of my life ), you should probably lean towards the Solace, as that's closer to the Synapse. But given that it's brand new, you won't find deals on them.

A deal on a Foil may be hard to pass up, but I'm not sure you'll be that happy or comfortable on it. If you have to tweak it constantly to make it fit and feel good, you second-guess the purchase, or just don't want to ride it, it really wasn't that much of a deal after all.

And yes, the Foil is race-oriented, while the Synapse / Solace are more relaxed, endurance, and yes, comfort-oriented. But hey, if it works, it works.

If you wanted a deal, look for a closeout on last year's CR1, as that was more like the Solace in its previous iteration. It's been dumbed-down for '14 as an entry level carbon. It was originally full race, then comfort, now entry level.


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