# Racing with Tubeless Tires



## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

Who is racing with tubeless? How has it worked out for you?


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Philipe Gilbert has raced on Road Tubeless. It worked out for him at least once. Tubeless road tire system gets a classics win at Het Volk.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

pmt said:


> Philipe Gilbert has raced on Road Tubeless. It worked out for him at least once. Tubeless road tire system gets a classics win at Het Volk.


Cool I missed that one. I was hoping some people would have some real world experience with the system. how it holds up to day to day training rides and racing.


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## Seattleblu (Jul 28, 2006)

PEZ has a great review on an American Classic setup - PEZ Reviews: American Classic Goes Tubeless

It's amazing how light they are and they have been raced. I hope tire selection improves as more of these come to market.



pulser955 said:


> Cool I missed that one. I was hoping some people would have some real world experience with the system. how it holds up to day to day training rides and racing.


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## CyclingVirtual (Apr 10, 2008)

If you have spent loads on a bike trying to go faster, then use tubs.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

CyclingVirtual said:


> If you have spent loads on a bike trying to go faster, then use tubs.


OK why?


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

Fabian has used tubeless in a TT before. I think it will be the future for these ultra thin TT clincher tires. The hutch atom galactik is a good example of a great potential race tire. Only 240g and is extremely supple. Can't wait to try the new tubeless tires coming out.

Another one I might try for everyday is the new Bontrager R3 tubeless 25c tires.


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## triumph3banger (Jun 13, 2012)

I've got a few hundred miles on Ksyrium SL's with Hutchinson fusion 3's, and love the smooth ride. I'm 175, and have been running 90F and 95 rear.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

triumph3banger said:


> I've got a few hundred miles on Ksyrium SL's with Hutchinson fusion 3's, and love the smooth ride. I'm 175, and have been running 90F and 95 rear.


Any flats along the way? How was it getting a tube in? I have herd it can be vary vary hard to get a tube in on the side of the road. Its my biggest fear with tubeless. Some of my training rides take me out to some really remote places.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

I raced Tubless for a season. I thought it was great I weigh in at 180ish and was running 90 front and 92-5 rear. I used Hutchinson Fusions and Atoms on Alex wheels. The ride was great and the wheels seemed to roll over stuff alot smoother which allowed me to stay on the power over the stuff and they handled great (the rims were 22mm wide which helped I think). I did train on them as well I was concerned about flatting and it being an issue getting a tube in but it never happened so I can't report on that. I still race on Atoms and train on Intensives but have switch wheels so Im no longer running tubless.


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## triumph3banger (Jun 13, 2012)

pulser955 said:


> Any flats along the way? How was it getting a tube in? I have herd it can be vary vary hard to get a tube in on the side of the road. Its my biggest fear with tubeless. Some of my training rides take me out to some really remote places.


 I haven't had a flat yet, but think I am prepared to deal with it, should it happen. I put the tires on with just my hands, so believe I can get them off quickly. I'll find out...


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## Cat5superstar (Jan 30, 2006)

Over a year in now with no problems. Im not looking back.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

pulser955 said:


> Any flats along the way? How was it getting a tube in? I have herd it can be vary vary hard to get a tube in on the side of the road. Its my biggest fear with tubeless. Some of my training rides take me out to some really remote places.


It's no harder fitting a tube on the side of the road than it is mounting the tyres at home in the garage. I noticed the difference in feel between tubeless and tubed straight away though when I had to do it.


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## the_gormandizer (May 12, 2006)

pulser955 said:


> Who is racing with tubeless? How has it worked out for you?


I have ridden/raced on tubeless for 3 seasons. I use Shimano WH-7850-C24-CL wheels with Fusion 3's for hilly races. On my backup/training bike I have the all-aluminum WH-7850 with 25mm Intensives. I also used the Intensives for road races like Battenkill with lots of dirt. I do, however, use Zipp 404's with regular clinchers for crits and circuit races.

So far, the tubeless tires have worked out great. I have not had a flat in more than 15,000 miles, over poor New England pavement. I have been using Cafe Latex as a sealant.

The advantages are: 1) comfort due to lower tire pressure; 2) no pinch flats; 3) puncture resistance arguably enhanced by routinely using a sealant. The disadvantages are: 1) cost of tires; 2) more limited choice of wheels/rims; 3) extra maintenance equipment (i.e., small air compressor); 4) extra work to clean out old sealant; 5) a bit of a learning curve to fitting new tires; 6) I dread the day I actually have a flat. Sure, I carry a spare tube, but those tires are darn tight on the rims.

I think that the trend towards full carbon clinchers for even everyday riding might be adversely affecting the wide-spread adoption of tubeless technology.


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

Basically sums it all up. One thing I am looking forward to next year is all the new tubeless tires coming out. I really want to get a set of the Bontrager R3 25c tires to try. Running fusion 3s now and they have been awesome over 1k miles so far.

I agree about carbon clinchers but for me I still run them tubeless. It's so flat here that we can get away with it. Brake pads and resin is improving so I would imagine we start seeing someone try to advertise a tubeless carbon clincher. Would help sell some more rims. I would not however run them tubeless if there was any elevation.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

NWS Alpine said:


> I would not however run them tubeless if there was any elevation.


Interesting statement. Why if your starting out at lower pressure.


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## bayAreaDude (Apr 13, 2012)

Schwalbe has some tubeless tires coming out in September I think. Supposed to be easier to mount than the competition and cheaper. Bontrager has new tires and tubeless rims - seems like things are actually starting to happen with road tubeless. I'm very happy with my ultegra tubeless rims with the Fusion 3's and caffee latex sealant - haven't had a flat yet and were easy to mount with a floor pump.

Cool picutre of stabbing the new Schwalbe through both sidewalls with an icepick:

New tires from Schwalbe for 2012 - Slowtwitch.com


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## NWS Alpine (Mar 16, 2012)

pulser955 said:


> Interesting statement. Why if your starting out at lower pressure.


I don't trust current resin technology and my 205lbs with carbon clincher flying down a hill. They can overheat and delaminate. Manufacturers say that tubeless tires can add extra force to the clincher lip of the carbon rim. Not sure how much extra but that plus excessive heat can land me on the ground.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

NWS Alpine said:


> I don't trust current resin technology and my 205lbs with carbon clincher flying down a hill. They can overheat and delaminate. Manufacturers say that tubeless tires can add extra force to the clincher lip of the carbon rim. Not sure how much extra but that plus excessive heat can land me on the ground.


That's true I guess I didn't think about your statement in context of a carbon rim. I have campy Zonda's the new 2way fit's so I shouldn't have that problem.


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## the_gormandizer (May 12, 2006)

*My first flat*

I should have knocked on wood. I got my first flat today commuting to work on a bike path. It was a very rapid leak. The repair was easier than expected. The 25mm Intensive tire came off pretty easily, I inserted a tube and aired up with CO2. When I got to the office I inflated the tire properly and noticed a big gash, and the tube bulging out. Clearly too big for sealant to hold.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

the_gormandizer said:


> I have ridden/raced on tubeless for 3 seasons. I use Shimano WH-7850-C24-CL wheels with Fusion 3's for hilly races. .
> 
> . The disadvantages are: 1) cost of tires; 2) more limited choice of wheels/rims; 3) extra maintenance equipment (i.e., small air compressor); 4) extra work to clean out old sealant; 5) a bit of a learning curve to fitting new tires; 6) I dread the day I actually have a flat. Sure, I carry a spare tube, but those tires are darn tight on the rims.
> 
> I think that the trend towards full carbon clinchers for even everyday riding might be adversely affecting the wide-spread adoption of tubeless technology.


Let me address some issues,

2) you can retrofit just about any rim to tubeless

3) compressor, there is some variation here also, sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't, the Stan's alpha rims seem to be the easist, I don't think I have ever had to use a compressor on them, shimanos? maybe every third tire - i hear that using a CO2 cartridge for inflation works well in place of a compressor

6) the shimano rims are tight, but with a couple of plastic tire irons it is quite easy to replace, no worse than some clinchers - they also get easier to get on/off when warm and/or having been mounted at pressure for awhile

Something like Stan's alpha rims are much easier to mount tubeless on

I am using tubeless on my enve 3.4 carbon rims, in my opinion, carbon and tubless with sealant makes a lot of sense as it absolutely eliminates issues with corrosion 

If you have gone three years with only one flat, you are incredibly lucky and you do NOT have crappy roads

Tubeless does not eliminate flats, but significantly reduces them, 

For racing, irc has some new roadlites that weigh in at 240 grams

I believe Stan's race team has been using them


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## kush (Apr 25, 2009)

i broke 2 frames in 2 crashes in 2 crits in 2 years. Out of some 40 races. Both times were the only times I ran tubeless hutchinsons. both were hard crashes on high speed turns I''d normally handle on tubulars.

ymmv. love them for training, but would never race on them.


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## hotshod (Oct 10, 2011)

*Hutch F 3 so far*

I added a pair of Hutch F3 to my non-tubeless Zonda wheels in Feb '12......
Installation was by hand but a compressor was handy for first inflate.

I have now completed 8,300 ks and have yet to have a puncture, to this point I have been using Stan's sealant. My rear tyre lasted 5,100ks.

I am extremely happy with the way the F3 rolls and can handle chunky coarse aggregate roads with increased comfort. My pressures are checked before each ride 80psi front 90 rear , I'm 72kg. Last week I set them at 70/85 and still found the ride great, even more comfortable , but the front tyre was a tad squishey when climbing out of the saddle.

Not much more to say , except that the non-tubeless Zondas perform very well, and i would not be tempted to get the 2-way version for an extra $140......the non-tubeless will offer 98% of the safety of the 2-way except for locking onto the rim, not a big deal....

Even though I think the Hutch F3 is a great tubeless tyre, I can't wait to try the Schwable, Maxxis, and IRC versions...... not really looking for light weight ,but a plush, comfortable , fast tubular type ride. 
Fusion 3 is well on the way to achieving that, and HP clinchers are in my past.

my 2cents worth...


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## snidemcbride (Aug 27, 2012)

You can convert but when doing so you do not get the bead hook or the rim channel "flap." Running a road tubeless conversion is a little scary. I would want the security of a rim with a tubeless bead hook.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

snidemcbride said:


> You can convert but when doing so you do not get the bead hook or the rim channel "flap." Running a road tubeless conversion is a little scary. I would want the security of a rim with a tubeless bead hook.


Riders with many years and tens of thousands of kilometers on Road Tubeless would disagree with you. There's no problem with most common rims.


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## cmprobert (Mar 11, 2010)

I am picking up a pair of Enve 3.4 and would like to know what kind of tubeless are you running? Did you just use the yellow stans tape? Does this negate any warranty?


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

cmprobert said:


> I am picking up a pair of Enve 3.4 and would like to know what kind of tubeless are you running? Did you just use the yellow stans tape? Does this negate any warranty?


First off using tubeless on the enve 3.4 is for the experienced only. And you must absolutely have a compressor

Stan's tape and my current favorite tubeless tire is the bontrager r3 tlr 25mm at 80 psi front and 85 back

I have no idea on the warranty, I can't imagine why it would be an issue. I did write enve about tubeless before I bought the rims and they didn't say it would affect the warranty

The thing I do NOT like about the enveis the spokes are adjusted from the inside and when you tape the rim, you can't get acces to them

Fortunately, the rims stay true.

The rim that has really caught my eye lately is the Easton ec90 55mm which are tubeless ready


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Since I've changed over to tubeless road tires I would not go back. The elimination of pinch flats was my biggest reason to go tubeless. It's really easy to hit a pothole during a race when it's obscured by other riders in front of you! Since going tubeless I tired tubes one season on a set of carbon clinchers and pinch flatted 3 times. For reference, the last pinch flat I was running 110 psi and I weigh 165. I was able to convert these carbon rims to tubeless, but I sold them because they weren't designed for it and did not inflate as easily as rims designed for tubeless tires. Reynolds has recently come out with some tubeless carbon rims, but I still haven't seen anything from Zipp.

Note, if you change your own tires (like most people, I think) then you want to get rims that are user friendly and learn proper mounting and inflating technique.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Definitely agree with mtbpete here. I could never go back to tubes now that I've made the jump. The ride quality is noticeably more supple, and I have yet to have a single flat (knock on wood).


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it depends a lot on the tires. I trust these guys that swear they will never go back, but I went through 4 sets of Hutchinson tires (Fusions and Intensives) on various rims (alloy and carbon) and going back to tubes (Conti 4000s) has been a significant improvement in ride quality and I have had far fewer flats (than the Fusions; I did not have flats on the Intensives). I moved up to 25mm GP4000s tires, so I run about same pressure (80/90) as I was using with the 23mm tubeless. Likely the improved ride quality is due to larger casing, but the 25mm GP4000s tires with tubes also weigh less than then 23mm Fusions (and certainly the Intensives). I also have been left with extreme distrust of Hutchinson tires having had one fail catastrophically with blown-out sidewall and the Intensives developed cracks along the sidewalls (so I replaced them before they also blew out). 

Running my 50mm Farsports rims tubeless was extremely difficult (to seat). The tires were very loose on the rims. I had to use co2 on one of the wheels (since I don't have a compressor). Alloy rims I have converted were trivial to set up.

I will try again someday with Bontrager or Specialized tires.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

triumph3banger said:


> I haven't had a flat yet, but think I am prepared to deal with it, should it happen. I put the tires on with just my hands, so believe I can get them off quickly. I'll find out...


Wow. My Fusion 3's were a FIGHT getting them on my Dura-Ace wheels. I had to lever them on and even that was extremely hard. So far no flats, but I do fear the day.

At 200 lbs, I can ride them at 90psi and get a great ride. I do like the ride better than the GP4000S in 25 that I was riding before.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Wow. My Fusion 3's were a FIGHT getting them on my Dura-Ace wheels. I had to lever them on and even that was extremely hard. So far no flats, but I do fear the day.
> 
> At 200 lbs, I can ride them at 90psi and get a great ride. I do like the ride better than the GP4000S in 25 that I was riding before.


totally agree, mounting the fusion 3's on shimano rims absolutely requires tire irons - try throwing them out in the sun for a bit before mounting and they do stretch a bit so are easier to remount when there is a flat

but you WILL GET A FLAT someday so you better work out your technique now

something like a Stan's alpha tubeless rim even I could mount F3's with only my hands if I had too


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

purdyd said:


> totally agree, mounting the fusion 3's on shimano rims absolutely requires tire irons - try throwing them out in the sun for a bit before mounting and they do stretch a bit so are easier to remount when there is a flat


Fusion 3s are definitely tough to mount on Shimano wheels. IRC Formula tyres are much easier. I just mounted some Intensives to replace the IRCs and they were the hardest tyre I've had to mount on a rim. Even harder than Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres on the commuter.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

pushstart said:


> I think it depends a lot on the tires. I trust these guys that swear they will never go back, but I went through 4 sets of Hutchinson tires (Fusions and Intensives) on various rims (alloy and carbon) and going back to tubes (Conti 4000s) has been a significant improvement in ride quality and I have had far fewer flats (than the Fusions; I did not have flats on the Intensives). I moved up to 25mm GP4000s tires, so I run about same pressure (80/90) as I was using with the 23mm tubeless. Likely the improved ride quality is due to larger casing, but the 25mm GP4000s tires with tubes also weigh less than then 23mm Fusions (and certainly the Intensives). I also have been left with extreme distrust of Hutchinson tires having had one fail catastrophically with blown-out sidewall and the Intensives developed cracks along the sidewalls (so I replaced them before they also blew out).
> 
> Running my 50mm Farsports rims tubeless was extremely difficult (to seat). The tires were very loose on the rims. I had to use co2 on one of the wheels (since I don't have a compressor). Alloy rims I have converted were trivial to set up.
> 
> I will try again someday with Bontrager or Specialized tires.


Wow Dude, I've been running F2's and f3's for at least 6 years. I've been using them for so long I can't really remember how long it's been. I've only had one flat when I ran the F2 to the cord and on a damp ride I picked up a small stone that stuck and it pounded its way thru the cord. The Stan's would seal it.


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

jtompilot said:


> Wow Dude, I've been running F2's and f3's for at least 6 years. I've been using them for so long I can't really remember how long it's been. I've only had one flat when I ran the F2 to the cord and on a damp ride I picked up a small stone that stuck and it pounded its way thru the cord. The Stan's would seal it.


Well, perhaps you weigh less than I do (I weigh around 80kg/180lbs) or perhaps your roads are better ... I used sealant and kept tires properly inflated (around 100psi most of the time, later I went down to 90psi to see what people were talking about with the "great ride feel"). I had 5 flats with 3 different Fusion 3 tires over the course of the summer; the last was when the tire just exploded off the rim due to sidewall blowing out (again, just 100psi).

In my experience sealant doesn't seal holes when pressure goes above ~60psi. At least not on the flats that I got. So it really doesn't provide the safety net that you get on MTB (or CX) unless you're willing to ride at 40-60psi ... but that's just inviting more flats.

Anyway, like I said, I'll try with higher-quality tires. The conclusion that Hutchinsons are crappy tires seems to be a more common view than I expected.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

pushstart said:


> Well, perhaps you weigh less than I do (I weigh around 80kg/180lbs) or perhaps your roads are better ... I used sealant and kept tires properly inflated (around 100psi most of the time, later I went down to 90psi to see what people were talking about with the "great ride feel"). I had 5 flats with 3 different Fusion 3 tires over the course of the summer; the last was when the tire just exploded off the rim due to sidewall blowing out (again, just 100psi).
> 
> In my experience sealant doesn't seal holes when pressure goes above ~60psi. At least not on the flats that I got. So it really doesn't provide the safety net that you get on MTB (or CX) unless you're willing to ride at 40-60psi ... but that's just inviting more flats.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, I'll try with higher-quality tires. The conclusion that Hutchinsons are crappy tires seems to be a more common view than I expected.


I weigh 165 and run 90 psi/95 rear. I started using the F2 when they first came out. I converted a set of Easton Ascent 2 wheels and used those for 3 or 4 years with Stan's. My Shamals I use hutch's sealant, but haven't resealed them in three years so they are probably dry. My Zonda two way have been run dry from the get go. I can't tell you how many group rides I've been on here in the Detroit area and had to wait up for someone fixing flats.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

pushstart said:


> Well, perhaps you weigh less than I do (I weigh around 80kg/180lbs) or perhaps your roads are better ... I used sealant and kept tires properly inflated (around 100psi most of the time, later I went down to 90psi to see what people were talking about with the "great ride feel"). I had 5 flats with 3 different Fusion 3 tires over the course of the summer; the last was when the tire just exploded off the rim due to sidewall blowing out (again, just 100psi).
> 
> In my experience sealant doesn't seal holes when pressure goes above ~60psi. At least not on the flats that I got. So it really doesn't provide the safety net that you get on MTB (or CX) unless you're willing to ride at 40-60psi ... but that's just inviting more flats.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, I'll try with higher-quality tires. The conclusion that Hutchinsons are crappy tires seems to be a more common view than I expected.


There's a lot of variables in tubeless, for instance, what type of sealant are you using?

Stan's has particles in it and tends to clog up pin holes very quickly but doesn't really dry out like the latex sealants which may take longer to seal but will dry out and to me seem more permanent

and if you are slicing your tires sealants don't work well at all

and what rims are you using if you are blowing tires off your rims?

so if someone says tubeless sucks or tubeless if fantastic, you kind of have to frame it around the tire, rim, and sealant as they have a big impact on the experience

but I agree, I think there are some nicer tires out there besides the standard Hutchinson fusion 3

simply from a feel aspect and construction, the IRC top secrete and bontrager R3 TLR are ones that I have tried that are better

the R3 comes in a 25mm width and is my current favorite


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

purdyd said:


> There's a lot of variables in tubeless, for instance, what type of sealant are you using?
> 
> Stan's has particles in it and tends to clog up pin holes very quickly but doesn't really dry out like the latex sealants which may take longer to seal but will dry out and to me seem more permanent
> 
> ...


Yeah, I use Stans sealant (and I shake it first! ). 1 cup full on road tubeless.

Yeah, my first flat was effectively a pinch flat. Rim (alloy) made a small cut the tire when I hit a bridge gap at speed. Was probably running 80psi (front); obviously that wasn't quite enough to not be more careful.

The blowout was from the bead separating (that was my Fusion) -- or at least the end result was a large tear along/just above the bead. Those were carbon clinchers (Farsports), not sharp. I also saw cracks developing along the bead on my Intensives on H+ Son Archetype rims.

Yeah, I'm gonna try an R3 next, I think. I probably will do the 25mm too (good to know that is an option).

I've got some LB 45mm "tubeless compatible" rims on order that I am building for a disc wheelset. I'll give tubeless another try. If it felt fantastic I would put up with the flats, but I don't find the Fusions feel as nice as the GP4000S tires I'm running now (granted those are also 25mm, so larger volume). The Fusions were really stiff tires (sidewalls) in comparison to the GP4000S, though, so it's kinda hard to imagine them really being more supple at similar PSI. I suspect that most of the preference of the feel of tubeless etc. is in the mind. I suspect that a blind test people would have a hard time picking the tubeless tire from a similar tire with tubes in it. I've never compared apples to apples, though. I will say that the Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX definitely felt better than anything else I've ridden, but the GP4000S seems to provide a more practical balance.

I swear by tubeless on my MTB and cross bike, though. I will try again with the R3 25mm and hopefully will have good experiences. I know that using the right gear also counts for a lot.

Thanks for the tips.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

NWS Alpine said:


> I don't trust current resin technology and my 205lbs with carbon clincher flying down a hill. They can overheat and delaminate. Manufacturers say that tubeless tires can add extra force to the clincher lip of the carbon rim. Not sure how much extra but that plus excessive heat can land me on the ground.


Well there are downhills and there are downhills

I've been on a lot of rides with some extreme elevation changes and steep descents and there is only one descent that I can think of that would give me pause with over heating of carbon rims

if it is really windy, you generally don't buildup a lot of speed, if it has only a few tight turns, you have time to cool everything off

if you do have to start limiting speed, you can alternate front and back

and to be honest, current name brand resin technology is pretty good

perhaps if disc brakes on road bikes become the rule this concern of overheating will become just a quaint discussion of the ole days


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

For those without a compressor, just go to a gas station and use the air hose. You can get presta to shrader adaptor that fits over your valve stem while you air it up and then take it off. Sometimes it's hard to find a station with the old school pump that blows air really fast, but they're still around. Once you've inflated it once with a compressor/gas station hose, you'll probably be able to inflate it with a floor pump the next time.


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