# Recreational doping



## Einstruzende

I ride with several doctors, and they all seem know know an awful lot about performance enhancing drugs. Of course it may come with the territory of being a doctor, though most of these guys have specialties that seem to me would not involve PEDs. 

So I got to thinking, do recreational riders dope? I imagine yes, as there are folks with more money than brains, and ego means everything.

Anyone have any stories about this subject?


----------



## Dwayne Barry

Einstruzende said:


> So I got to thinking, do recreational riders dope? I imagine yes, as there are folks with more money than brains, and ego means everything.
> 
> Anyone have any stories about this subject?


Assuming "recreational" means anyone who isn't a pro. I've known plenty of mountain bikers who smoke pot while riding. I'm pretty sure a guy I raced against in mountain bikes was using some sort of amphetamines. A friend of mine (also one of the pot smokers) routinely would take a pull on his wife's asthma inhaler before we went out for rides. I've seen a few guys at road races who almost certainly were taking anabolic steroids.


----------



## jorgy

Hell, yes, I believe there are plenty of folks that use substances that are on WADA's banned list. If men will take ****** I have no doubt they'd use some testosterone cream. After all, our society seems to be very focused on 'anti-aging.'

I myself use Flonase a few months of the year because of allergies, and the active ingredient (fluticasone propionate) is on WADA's list. I've heard of competitive age groupers trying to get a TUE but they generally don't seem to get any response.


----------



## iliveonnitro

Anyone hear of the Bianchi/Grand Performance team?

You'll occasionally get the occasional guy in a group ride spill to someone he thinks is his friend that hey can hook him up, or that he is getting great results from getting "vitamin shots" or "anti-aging treatment."

It's not hard to know a lot about doping, especially as a cyclist. As a doctor, I'm sure many worked with cancer patients in a round during residency. Hell, even many people who do blood draws would know how to dope -- and have the tools to separate RBC/plasma.


----------



## Don Duende

I think you need to make a distinction about PEDs and good medical supervision. For non-racers the concept of health and preventive medicine are well established.

Medically, you would never let a thyroid hormone deficiency go untreated. For the same reasons, testosterone deficiency leads to a plethora of both acute and chronic diseases, many of which are life threatening, and should be corrected with the same precision and attention. Without any hesitation, I would say that the individual whose testosterone deficiency was properly corrected, would now perform physical tasks better. But being a non-racer, the major benefit is the prevention of disease due to a testosterone deficiency.

If you ever stopped at the coffee shop before a ride, you are using caffeine as a PED. If you suffer from any type of asthma, it would be foolish not to take a puff of your inhaler prior to a ride.

If you have been ever given cortisone for any reason and it put you into adrenal hypofunction, why would you not want it corrected and enjoy better health? How many of your doctors even bother to check? 

The women's movement has been way out front with this issue and as result they have been enjoying the benefits of hormone replacement for decades (albeit, not always done properly). It is time to take hormone replacement for men seriously, and change the archaic concepts of our fathers' generation..


----------



## Under ACrookedSky

Steroid use is rife in the general population whether they are recreational cyclists or not. For the most part it is for looks rather than performance. If you get past a certain age then recovery becomes extremely important. The guys doing roids have a huge advantage over those who don't.

I knew a couple of guys who were using EPO and the most competitive events they ever did were local centuries and the MS150. I don't think either had ever raced at all, not even a time trial. Total posers. The chief reason it appears they did it was to be a big dog during the lunch hammer session. They were both real type-A yuppie a-holes.


----------



## DGK*UGLY

I do. I love it. It’s great. I don’t even ride much but when I do ride on the weekends or outside of commuting to work, I smoke/eat (in baked goods) the devils lettuce. It’s so much fun, to me. I don’t feel as tired, I don’t feel sore, I am really attentive and I don’t feel sore or tired after. I’m not entering any competitions so I don’t see what the problem is. It also helps me gain strength and gives me goals to beat when I’m sober riding. There isn’t such a difference where I’m totally in awe about the whole thing, it’s just that I can notice how MORE tired I am after riding. How my legs are killing me after riding but after a stoned ride my legs just feel a little hot and I’m totally relaxed. 
Since I’m paranoid when I’m stoned I always pick the safest routes and the safest choices. When I’m not, I’m just riding any route that will get me there the fastest. I don’t take certain choices into consideration. I will jet across the street or cut cars off when they are making right turns. Sounds stupid, I know. People can throw the Bullsh*t flag on that if they want but I personally enjoy it more.


----------



## bigbill

I rode with a few guy back in the 90's who routinely did anabolic steroids in the late winter/early spring to build strength. They were naturally type A+ personalities and the steroids really sent them over the edge. Group rides usually had at least one of them screaming at someone for not working hard enough. In the cat 2/3 world, there were no drug tests unless you did nationals and that was random.


----------



## terzo rene

BTW hormone replacement in women has been on the wane in recent years as more research has muddled the cost benefit waters.

I find the idea of testosterone replacement in men intriguing, but men die younger for a reason and a lifetime bathed in extra T is a pretty good guess why. On the other hand the only reason we live as long as we do is to maximize reproductive success within the limits of our current genes. Potentially, higher T levels could tell your body you are still doing your reproductive duty and need to be kept around a while longer. Kind of a coin toss, but if your GF is 15 years younger than you the choice is obvious (though the GF should be increasing your levels too, especially if you only have sex once a week).


----------



## gizzard

I've always been wary of expressing my true opinion about this issue, but the more I think about it the more I am convinced that doping takes place at all levels. Certainly, when I was racing in a small pro-am team in South Africa in the late 80s, the majority of the full-time pros were on the goods and a large number of the amateurs were also enhancing their performances with anabolic steroids and amphetamines. 
I live in the UK now and I still race as an E/1/2 amateur. I am certain that some riders dope routinely, although I would say they use little more than amphetamines. I’ve heard from a reliable source that a large number of veterans in SA are doping, given that many of them are ex-pros and they know how to go about it.


----------



## Pablo

Taking performance-enhancing drugs to ride a bike faster when you don't race professionally rises to a new level of patheticness. 

Drug use in the pros is sad as well, but at least it's somewhat understabible due to the incentives involved. But doping to win a cat. 4 race or drop your bros on a kunch ride, or finish a charity ride faster? Are you kidding me? Absolutely pathetic. 

I'm not taking about being healthy, just taking some extra pharmaceuticals for the primary purpose of biking faster. Lame. 

Smoking weed while mountain biking can be fun, but I'm hard pressed to view that as "performance enhancing." Although I recognize the trouble you get into with definitions.


----------



## mohair_chair

The stories I've heard is that recreational riders are more likely to be doped up with large quantities of NSAIDs than PEDs. I know they have tested top finishers at Ironmans, where the bulk of the field is doing it "for fun," and have seen massive levels of Ibuprofen and other NSAIDs.


----------



## Racer C

mohair_chair said:


> The stories I've heard is that recreational riders are more likely to be doped up with large quantities of NSAIDs than PEDs. I know they have tested top finishers at Ironmans, where the bulk of the field is doing it "for fun," and have seen massive levels of Ibuprofen and other NSAIDs.


+1. A guy I used to race with would eat Ibuprofen by the handful, like candy, before each race. I thought his stomach was going to bleed.


----------



## lookrider

I had to go to a urologist about 8 years ago for an issue unrelated to PED's, and I started talking to the doctor and he did some blood tests and told me my testosterone was on the low normal side and prescribed the patch. It didn't do much. After a month on that I was on Andro gel (transdermal T) for 2 or 3 months. I'm 5'9" about 175 and pretty lean. People started to notice the difference in my face and neck. Harder look. Also, I felt a little pumped up all the time, nothing major but I wasn't training much at the time, only a little running and light calisthenics. I wasn't crazy about the way it made me feel, a little hyped and on edge all the time. I definitely think that in addition to the obvious physical effects of steroids, there is just as significantly, a big mental effect and dependence on them. This urologist seemed very anxious to get me on HRT. He worked with another urologist who seemed to have the exact opposite opinion on hormone replacement therapy, a conservative approach. For the most part doctors seem to encourage taking medication these days which I find kind of ridiculous now. A few years ago I was all for experimentation, but I've changed my outlook...


Went off it and was retested on my testosterone about 3 months later. It was up to a more average level.

A lot of things can cause low testosterone, one of those is mental stress. Maybe using small amounts of transdermal testosterone might not be a terrible thing, but to be getting steroid injections or using heavy duty oral steroids is nuts unless you have some severe medical condition which warrants it.


----------



## lookrider

Under ACrookedSky said:


> They were both real type-A yuppie a-holes.


Well, there you go, they're all over.


----------



## blackhat

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/8/6/588053/bike-commuter-banned-for-e


----------



## jupiterrn

I have had several people (mostly riders but some other sports as well) come into my clinic looking for a doctors script for testosterone or other PEDs. Most are testing the water and often leave when I ask what type of bike they ride and what groups they ride with and do they know a particular rider. Sad but true.


----------



## stevesbike

Below is the now-classic story (in the magazine Outside) of Stuart Stevens, who used himself as a guinea pig to see 1) how much stuff a doctor would prescribe (under anti-aging etc) ending up on a cocktail of all the usual suspects, and 2) its performance effects. 

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html


----------



## pianopiano

*thanks for that!*



blackhat said:


> http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/8/6/588053/bike-commuter-banned-for-e


LMAO! :thumbsup: 

I loved how he was caught because he started arriving at work suspiciously early! Priceless!!!


----------



## Edgecrusher

What does anyone think about Ephedra?
has anyone tried it before.

It is an otc easily available at any drug store for Bronchial problems -ask at the prescription counter. 25mg per caplet.

Also, is Taurine an enhancer of any type.
Do drinks like redbull, etc just increase the heart rate, and do nothing else.


----------



## iliveonnitro

Edgecrusher said:


> What does anyone think about Ephedra?
> has anyone tried it before.


The problem with Ephedrine is that it is deadly if you are dehydrated. Also, it is most effective while mixed with caffeine. Caffeine contributes to dehydration.

It's not a problem for most normal and active people. The problem is when you start having teens/20-something football players, or endurance athletes, etc who take it and easily get dehydrated. It turns into heart-attack-in-a-bottle.


----------



## Don Duende

The most popular abuse of Bronkaid was in a cocktail called "stacking" mostly to accelerate fat burning to get lean. It was combined with cafeine and aspirin. Don't recall that stacking enhanced performance.


----------



## Guest

Heck, look around the web - there are tons of sites promoting steroids. It's just crazy. I've gotten dozens of spam email from some Canadian site willing to sell me just about anything. Join a "hardcore" gym, get to know people and eventually you'll be able to find someone who's willing to set you up with some PEDs. Or, you can join some of the Anti-aging forums and find ways to get HGH or find doctors that are more willing than others to prescribe a variety of 'helpful' medications.

It's bonkers...


----------



## Don Duende

Heck, at the top of this forum's page was an advertisement for testosterone.


----------



## kztimmins

I play football as well and had done a fair bit of research in ECA (Ephedrine, caffeine, aspirin) stacking in hopes of losing some of the offseason chub. I'm in Canada and there is a loophole on our laws that allows 8mg doses to be sold. You can walk into the local health shop and buy enough Ephedrine to last several months for under $10.

I never graduated to the stack because I noticed little to no difference in my body after taking 24 and 42 Mg of Ephedrine per day. In fact it would often zap my energy and make me feel tired.

I'll tell you one thing it did, it dehydrated the heck out of me.


----------



## Local Hero

Gym rats and men from a variety of professions (cops, bartenders, actors, et cetera) take steroids...why would we think that recreational cyclists are any different?


----------



## Robert1

Absolutely. There seems to be a lot of naiveness in the cycling community WRT to how common and abused PEDS really are not only in cycling but virtually all professional sports as well as amateur sports and recreational use. There's been more than one news report of HS kids taking steroids in football or just to get big/cut. I remember training in a local weight gym and it was pretty common to see used syringes and soiled bandaids in the trash basket. And pretty much everyone knew which guys were on the juice. Though there's always some level of disapproval by some in the gyms, there's no where near the disdain for it as there is in the cycling community. I don't know why that is, but perhaps if you follow power-lifting, bodybuilding, football etc. you just realize and accept that they're all doing it—mostly their physical appearance makes it very obvious especially the latest era of bodybuilders. But with cycling the changes in physical appearance are not so blatant so it still comes as a big surprise to some guys when they hear joe cyclist just got popped for doping.



Local Hero said:


> Gym rats and man from a variety of professions (cops, bartenders, actors, et cetera) take steroids...why would we think that recreational cyclists are any different?


----------



## LostViking

Local Hero said:


> Gym rats and man from a variety of professions (cops, bartenders, actors, et cetera) take steroids...why would we think that recreational cyclists are any different?


Agreed. When I see the "hammer crew" at a local Century Ride treating the ride like a race - I'm not at all surprized that at least some of these guys are using something beyond a strong cup of Jo in the morning.

If you need to impress others and yourself that badly, at least do so in a Cat 4 or 3 where you can actually "win" a race!


----------



## kztimmins

I used to look at guys who were more muscular than I was and assume that they were all jacked. 

Only later to realise that they were simply bigger, stronger and work way harder than I do.


----------



## LostViking

kztimmins said:


> I used to look at guys who were more muscular than I was was and assume they were simply bigger, stronger and work way harder than I do.
> 
> Only later to realise that a fair amount of them were all jacked.


Fixed that for ya.


----------



## spade2you

Wasn't there a guy who posts here who quit because all his competition doped?


----------



## LostViking

spade2you said:


> Wasn't there a guy who posts here who quit because all his competition doped?


Probably. By "competition" I asume he was racing - and not a "recreational" rider?


----------



## Cableguy

LostViking said:


> If you need to impress others and yourself that badly, at least do so in a Cat 4 or 3 where you can actually "win" a race!


I don't understand the h8 towards the more recreational types just for putting in a hard effort on a charity/group ride. Cycling is a sport, there's innate competition. 

When you see someone playing hard in a pick up B-ball game, do you make fun of them behind their back say "If you need to impressive others and yourself that bad, go join a tournament where you can actually 'win' "


----------



## Indetrucks

My performance increased substantially just by using a nose strip.
Didn't think I had a deviated Septum until I tried the strips. 

WOW... I can ride forever on the nose strips.

Don't ban me bro!


----------



## spade2you

LostViking said:


> Probably. By "competition" I asume he was racing - and not a "recreational" rider?


_Was_ racing.


----------



## Creakyknees

Cableguy said:


> I don't understand the h8 towards the more recreational types just for putting in a hard effort on a charity/group ride. Cycling is a sport, there's innate competition.
> 
> When you see someone playing hard in a pick up B-ball game, do you make fun of them behind their back say "If you need to impressive others and yourself that bad, go join a tournament where you can actually 'win' "


I (kind of) second this thought... 

First, let's make it clear I don't approve of doping outside of medical requirements. I race USAC, I get my ass kicked, am mostly pack fill with an occasional good day. But I don't go around accusing everybody of dopng; I just know there's a lot of talent out there and a lot of guys who train harder and more seriously than I do. 

When we talk about an individual's motivation for PEDs, sure, a pro cyclist has an obvious $ reason. 

But, I submit, the guys doing the lunch ride with their buddies, have a perhaps even more powerful reason: the (perceived) respect of their peers. 

Honestly, is there anything more valuable than that? 

Excepting the love of a lover/spouse/family of course. 

And sure, it's "fake" respect of your peers. I dunno about others, but knowing it's fake would be ruin the experience for me. 

I mean, think about Lance or Floyd or whoever, standing on the podium in Paris, thinking... "yeah this is cool, but it wasn't really me... how much was the drugs?"

Anyway, on a personal level, after getting dropped for the nth time in a season, after suffering through yet another inadequate training cycle because work/family/real life got in the way, sure, I've thought to myself, "eff this, let's plop down the credit card and buy some performance"... but it's only been a thought. A passing bit of fantasy in a moment of weakness.


----------



## spade2you

I've thought about it since I could reach out and touch the stuff if I wanted. Naturally, getting caught would also probably lead me to getting fired and losing my license. I'm under the impression I wouldn't respond to EPO since my HCT is already a little high, at least not without stroking out.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Cableguy said:


> I don't understand the h8 towards the more recreational types just for putting in a hard effort on a charity/group ride. Cycling is a sport, there's innate competition


If a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race among themselves that's fine, go for it.

But I had a guy last summer sitting on my wheel. I could not shake him off and he didn't want to come around a do a pull. It's just a Fondo-type ride and I'm trying to enjoy myself, and he's making me uncomfortable. This after he was glued to my GF's wheel for a long time...too long,and obviously staring at her caboose. Finally I swerved over to make the guy pass me and he went into a 'roid rage, screaming at me, wanting to fight etc., because I wasn't riding properly. This with families and kids all around.

Like I said, if the juicers want to race, fine, but don't spoil everyone else's fun. Roids would be okay if they only affected your muscles but they turn too many guys into total a-holes.


----------



## zorroman

How funny. I have exercised induced asthma (EIA) and I never thought that my inhaler was a PED. I would agree that tweed and mountain biking was never really an PED...at least for me anyway.


----------



## rydbyk

zorroman said:


> How funny. I have exercised induced asthma (EIA) and I never thought that my inhaler was a PED. I would agree that tweed and mountain biking was never really an PED...at least for me anyway.


Someone mentioned way back that an inhaler is a PED. I guess albuterol? From what I have read, albuterol does absolutely nothing to enhance a non-asthmatic's performance on a bike or run etc. In fact, it can have adverse affects if take by someone with properly functioning lungs.

Essentially, an inhaler allows an asthmatic to perform at a more normal level.

Correct? Anyone have conflicting research they can point me to?


----------



## Cableguy

Cinelli 82220 said:


> If a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race among themselves that's fine, go for it.
> 
> But I had a guy last summer sitting on my wheel. I could not shake him off and he didn't want to come around a do a pull. It's just a Fondo-type ride and I'm trying to enjoy myself, and he's making me uncomfortable. This after he was glued to my GF's wheel for a long time...too long,and obviously staring at her caboose. Finally I swerved over to make the guy pass me and he went into a 'roid rage, screaming at me, wanting to fight etc., because I wasn't riding properly. This with families and kids all around.
> 
> Like I said, if the juicers want to race, fine, but don't spoil everyone else's fun. Roids would be okay if they only affected your muscles but they turn too many guys into total a-holes.


I obv. don't know the whole story but if you swerved erradically and almost took the guy out I think most would be pissed and possibly rage a little. Not necessary roids. Instead of swerving unexpectedly why didn't you just say "Hey I'm uncomfortable with you drafting us, I'm gonna slow down can you please go around? We're just doing our own thing". Sounds like you got caught up in the competitiveness of the ride and tried to pull a Contador-Shleck evasive maneuver.


----------



## bayAreaDude

Cableguy said:


> I don't understand the h8 towards the more recreational types just for putting in a hard effort on a charity/group ride. Cycling is a sport, there's innate competition.
> 
> When you see someone playing hard in a pick up B-ball game, do you make fun of them behind their back say "If you need to impressive others and yourself that bad, go join a tournament where you can actually 'win' "


I know I do. Competition is one thing, yelling at others on the group ride because you're taking yourself so seriously at the amateur level I find hilarious and annoying.


----------



## zorroman

rydbyk said:


> Someone mentioned way back that an inhaler is a PED. I guess albuterol? From what I have read, albuterol does absolutely nothing to enhance a non-asthmatic's performance on a bike or run etc. In fact, it can have adverse affects if take by someone with properly functioning lungs.
> 
> Essentially, an inhaler allows an asthmatic to perform at a more normal level.
> 
> Correct? Anyone have conflicting research they can point me to?


That actually sounds more accurate. I can definitely attest to the fact that I have literally like only 75% of my lung capacity when I forget my albuterol. I've even heard by non-asthmatics that my inhaler is sometimes like an upper (makes their heart race/jumpy).


----------



## Robert1

Albuterol is a stimulant. Similar to clenbuterol but not as powerful.




rydbyk said:


> Someone mentioned way back that an inhaler is a PED. I guess albuterol? From what I have read, albuterol does absolutely nothing to enhance a non-asthmatic's performance on a bike or run etc. In fact, it can have adverse affects if take by someone with properly functioning lungs.
> 
> Essentially, an inhaler allows an asthmatic to perform at a more normal level.
> 
> Correct? Anyone have conflicting research they can point me to?


----------



## Cableguy

bayAreaDude said:


> I know I do. Competition is one thing, yelling at others on the group ride because you're taking yourself so seriously at the amateur level I find hilarious and annoying.


Well I agree with tht but you do realize I specifically said "*just* for putting in a hard effort on a charity/group ride"


----------



## JasonLopez

Pablo said:


> Taking performance-enhancing drugs to ride a bike faster when you don't race professionally rises to a new level of patheticness.
> 
> Drug use in the pros is sad as well, but at least it's somewhat understabible due to the incentives involved. But doping to win a cat. 4 race or drop your bros on a kunch ride, or finish a charity ride faster? Are you kidding me? Absolutely pathetic.
> 
> I'm not taking about being healthy, just taking some extra pharmaceuticals for the *primary purpose of biking faster. Lame.*
> 
> *Smoking weed while mountain biking can be fun, but I'm hard pressed to view that as "performance enhancing."* Although I recognize the trouble you get into with definitions.


So if you don't compete, and take PED's to bike faster, is it still lame?

I don't understand why you have to single out people and judge them.

We like to ride faster, "enhance performance", because the faster you go, the better and longer the experience is, thus, "experience enhancers". I find it ironic you condone weed but not PED's. 

The simple problem with PED's in a competitive environment is that you are signing your name on a sanctioned race that you are not using PED's to gain an unfair advantage. *It's a question of character, honesty, and sportsmanship. Nothing else.*


----------



## rydbyk

JasonLopez said:


> So if you don't compete, and take PED's to bike faster, is it still lame?
> 
> I don't understand why you have to single out people and judge them.
> 
> We like to ride faster, "enhance performance", because the faster you go, the better and longer the experience is, thus, "experience enhancers". I find it ironic you condone weed but not PED's.
> 
> The simple problem with PED's in a competitive environment is that you are signing your name on a sanctioned race that you are not using PED's to gain an unfair advantage. *It's a question of character, honesty, and sportsmanship. Nothing else.*


I guess that you have a point. Just make sure you inform ALL of your riding partners that you have chosen to take shortcuts and perhaps that is why they are struggling to keep up with in the mtns.:thumbsup:


----------



## Local Hero

rydbyk said:


> I guess that you have a point. Just make sure you inform ALL of your riding partners that you have chosen to take shortcuts and perhaps that is why they are struggling to keep up with in the mtns.:thumbsup:


We're talking about recreational riding? I don't think it's necessary for someone to reveal treatments they are getting from their Dr.


----------



## SauronHimself

Be like Raw Lewis and use deer antler velvet.


----------



## jspharmd

Cinelli 82220 said:


> If a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race among themselves that's fine, go for it.
> 
> But I had a guy last summer sitting on my wheel. I could not shake him off and he didn't want to come around a do a pull. It's just a Fondo-type ride and I'm trying to enjoy myself, and he's making me uncomfortable. This after he was glued to my GF's wheel for a long time...too long,and obviously staring at her caboose. Finally I swerved over to make the guy pass me and he went into a 'roid rage, screaming at me, wanting to fight etc., because I wasn't riding properly. This with families and kids all around.
> 
> *Like I said, if the juicers want to race, fine, but don't spoil everyone else's fun. Roids would be okay if they only affected your muscles but they turn too many guys into total a-holes.*


This is funny for two reasons 1) It is a stereotype, not every guy on roids goes into roid rage (when I was bodybuilding, the number of guys that had roid rage was a minority by far), 2) This statement is nearly the same I heard when I told my MTB buddies that I was going to start racing on the road.


----------



## jspharmd

I don't know of any research regarding albuterol, asthma, and athletic performance. I do know that is prevents exercise induced asthma attacks when taken before the activity starts. I have asthma and have forgotten to take my inhaler before a ride. I didn't notice any difference in performance either way. However, I've also had an asthma attack during exercise and it is severely debilitating. So, I would venture to guess that it would take a significant amount of albuterol (inhaled) to cause the stimulant effect seen with other PEDs.

Regarding group/charity rides, I would say there are two types of cyclists at these events. The casual rider that will take their time and enjoy the ride with friends and the racer/competitive cyclist that will use this event as a training ride. Each one takes a different approach to the ride, and both make sense. Just figure out which one you are and stay away from the other type. If you are the later, you will likely be in front of the former and try to stay that way.


----------



## jspharmd

Steroids in the gym are rampant and accepted as others have stated. When I was lifting, I actually had a guy ask me what cycle I was doing. When I said I was doing protein supplements and trying this new thing called creatine (in a product called Phosphagain), he laughed and said "No really, what are you doing?". He couldn't believe that I was natural. That is the gym mentality. 

Cycling is different. My experience has been that most people are clean (or at least they are making me believe they are clean) and the attitude toward doping is much more reserved than in the gym.


----------



## LostViking

Cableguy said:


> I don't understand the h8 towards the more recreational types just for putting in a hard effort on a charity/group ride. Cycling is a sport, there's innate competition.
> 
> When you see someone playing hard in a pick up B-ball game, do you make fun of them behind their back say "If you need to impressive others and yourself that bad, go join a tournament where you can actually 'win' "


Racing is a sport - recreational rides are just that, recreation. Always amuses me when people confuse the two.

B-ball comparison doesn't really work - that's a team effort and clearly competitive - team who scores most points wins. Charity rides are not competitive - atleast not for 95% of those who ride in them.


----------



## LostViking

Cinelli 82220 said:


> If a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race among themselves that's fine, go for it.
> 
> But I had a guy last summer sitting on my wheel. I could not shake him off and he didn't want to come around a do a pull. It's just a Fondo-type ride and I'm trying to enjoy myself, and he's making me uncomfortable. This after he was glued to my GF's wheel for a long time...too long,and obviously staring at her caboose. Finally I swerved over to make the guy pass me and he went into a 'roid rage, screaming at me, wanting to fight etc., because I wasn't riding properly. This with families and kids all around.
> 
> Like I said, if the juicers want to race, fine, but don't spoil everyone else's fun. Roids would be okay if they only affected your muscles but they turn too many guys into total a-holes.


I generally don't have a problem with people clinging to my wheel during a recreational ride, I figure they are just tired or like the pace I'm setting. While it's great if they take a pull, I don't expect it. I've had people apologize to me at rest stops because they stuck on my wheel for the last 25 miles, when in fact, I don't really care. Besides, I figure if I'm tired and draft another group some other time - it's just payback/karma.

Your story about that guy going ballistic is really troubling. Hope I never run into a guy like that.


----------



## LostViking

bayAreaDude said:


> I know I do. Competition is one thing, yelling at others on the group ride because you're taking yourself so seriously at the amateur level I find hilarious and annoying.


Exactly - find like-minded individuals who want to race - sprint for the town limits - etc.
But when you start treating a recreational ride or a relaxed group ride like it's the friggin' Tour de France - I suspect you might have a problem.


----------



## Robert1

Pretty good bet it's not the deer antler velvet helping him out. That stuff is snake oil anyway.



SauronHimself said:


> Be like Raw Lewis and use deer antler velvet.


----------



## spade2you

Everyone knows deer antler velvet is snake oil. Dehydrated deer penis works much better, my friend.


----------



## zorroman

SauronHimself said:


> Be like Raw Lewis and use deer antler velvet.


I thought it was moose testical sweat?


----------



## Cableguy

LostViking said:


> Racing is a sport - recreational rides are just that, recreation. Always amuses me when people confuse the two.


But it's not black and white. You can play a sport at various levels of competitiveness and skill, right? Doing a sport in a "more recreational way" doesn't remove that competitive factor. So why make fun of slower riders pushing hard in a group setting just because it is not some type of official race? Seems silly to me 



LostViking said:


> B-ball comparison doesn't really work - that's a team effort and clearly competitive - team who scores most points wins. Charity rides are not competitive - atleast not for 95% of those who ride in them.


I think this is a great example of picking at very specific differences between a comparison and failing to see the bigger picture. Suffice to say, there doesn't need to be a scoreboard with points for the activity to be competitive.


----------



## LostViking

Cableguy said:


> there doesn't need to be a scoreboard with points for the activity to be competitive.


I agree that for some, no scoreboard is needed for any activity in life to become "competitive". However, I find it amusing when people treat a situation that is obviously not competitive as if it is. That seems silly to me.

But they can go on with thier bad selves - I still enjoy my recreation - they just give me something to laugh about. :thumbsup:


----------



## LostViking

Cableguy said:


> I think this is a great example of picking at very specific differences between a comparison and failing to see the bigger picture.


I'm sorry, but you provided the comparison, I merely responded to it.

You are of course free to choose a more suitable comparison involving a non-competitive activity in which it is A-okay to treat it as a competitive activity and perhaps I will do better at addressing it...


----------



## rydbyk

Local Hero said:


> We're talking about recreational riding? I don't think it's necessary for someone to reveal treatments they are getting from their Dr.


Right. He was not talking about treatments from the doctor though. He specifically mentions taking drugs to enhance his performance on a bike to ride faster because it is fun to ride faster.

On the other hand, taking testosterone to BALANCE out one's levels to make them on par with equally aged men that are NOT lacking testosterone...now maybe that is different.

Again, he was not talking about therapy.


----------



## LostViking

Cinelli 82220 said:


> If a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race among themselves that's fine, go for it.
> 
> But I had a guy last summer sitting on my wheel. I could not shake him off and he didn't want to come around a do a pull. It's just a Fondo-type ride and I'm trying to enjoy myself, and he's making me uncomfortable. This after he was glued to my GF's wheel for a long time...too long,and obviously staring at her caboose. Finally I swerved over to make the guy pass me and he went into a 'roid rage, screaming at me, wanting to fight etc., because I wasn't riding properly. This with families and kids all around.
> 
> Like I said, if the juicers want to race, fine, but don't spoil everyone else's fun. Roids would be okay if they only affected your muscles but they turn too many guys into total a-holes.


A suggestion: _Slow down_. He'll hate it and jump out of your draft as if stung by a bee.
Remember, he's "racing" and you're not.


----------



## badge118

I think this is what people miss...

American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine - The World Leader in Anti-Aging, Regenerative, Metabolic and Functional Medicine Education, Conferences and Exhibitions.
About Anti-Aging Medicine | Worldhealth.net Anti-Aging News

I could have kept linking but this is the point. Aging by more and more doctors is being looked at as a disease that can be treated. Substances that are seen as banned 'PEDs' are being seen now as legitimate medical treatments for this new disease by more and more doctors. A few years ago a piece was written for Outside magazine where the guy went to one of these Anti-Aging Doctors. He saw pro athletes and movie stars in his time going to the Doctor. Now he was going to the Doctor to help prep for P-B-P BUT the description of the program was as part of an Anti-Aging regime.

I hate to say it people but as street drugs are made legal, Anti-Aging medicine gets more and more cred thanks to aging baby boomers etc. we are closing in on a day when going whole hog against PEDs in sports is seen as "quaint and _so_ 20th century."

It doesn't matter that HGH works BUT has some potentially nasty side effects and that usuing exogeneous testosterone can have no only serious physical but psychological side effects when stopped. People are getting old, they are damn scared by it and this generation of aging are the generation that started the trend of "there is a pill for every ill" to make their money. A brave new world is coming. Be afraid...be very afraid.


----------



## Cableguy

LostViking said:


> However, I find it amusing when people treat a situation that is obviously not competitive as if it is.


I think the problem is the assumption that the activity should not be competitive for anyone just because you don't find it to be for yourself at the time. For example lets say you're a Cat1 who shows up to a charity ride and your plan is just to soft pedal and take in the scenery. You don't plan to ride it competitively at all. Then you see a bunch of relatively out of shape riders huffing and puffing past you in their own paceline... but according to you, what they're doing is silly because the whole event should be non-competitive... because you decided it was for yourself? Seems very one sided and judgemental


----------



## Local Hero

rydbyk said:


> Right. He was not talking about treatments from the doctor though. He specifically mentions taking drugs to enhance his performance on a bike to ride faster because it is fun to ride faster.
> 
> On the other hand, taking testosterone to BALANCE out one's levels to make them on par with equally aged men that are NOT lacking testosterone...now maybe that is different.
> 
> Again, he was not talking about therapy.


I'm confident that many guys over 40 could walk into a urologist's office, claim their energy and sex drive are down etc, and eventually get some testosterone.

It might take a blood test and interpretation as "low-T" by the urologists. But it's not impossible. Anti-aging docs and urologists write a lot of prescriptions for stuff that is banned by WADA. 

(For the record, I'm not even old enough to race masters!)


----------



## LostViking

Cableguy said:


> I think the problem is the assumption that the activity should not be competitive for anyone just because you don't find it to be for yourself at the time. For example lets say you're a Cat1 who shows up to a charity ride and your plan is just to soft pedal and take in the scenery. You don't plan to ride it competitively at all. Then you see a bunch of relatively out of shape riders huffing and puffing past you in their own paceline... but according to you, what they're doing is silly because the whole event should be non-competitive... because you decided it was for yourself? Seems very one sided and judgemental


Are those huffers and puffers "racing" or merely joining in a pace line to help them make it through the ride?
Is it my judgement that a ride is non-competitive or have others already made that determination?
I doubt your fictional Cat1 racer would be all to concerned about a bunch of out of shape guys in a pace line - he might smile to himself much as I do when the "hammer crew" come through enjoying their own private Cat1 while I'm huffing and puffing!
It's really a lot of fun to watch how seriously they take themselves.
Is that judgmental, perhaps - but no less so then thinking a bunch of out-of-shape guys in a pace line is silly.


----------



## Bluenote

I don't know any cyclists who doped. Well, at least that they told me or did where I could see. 

Oddly enough I had two roommates - neither of whom played sports - who used steroids. 

The guy used steroids to look cut and stay lean. The girl used steroids and diet pills to loose weight. The diet pills got taken off the market because they were dangerous; she ran out and bought a case.


----------



## spade2you

Bluenote said:


> I don't know any cyclists who doped. Well, at least that they told me or did where I could see.
> 
> Oddly enough I had two roommates - neither of whom played sports - who used steroids.
> 
> The guy used steroids to look cut and stay lean. The girl used steroids and diet pills to loose weight. The diet pills got taken off the market because they were dangerous; she ran out and bought a case.


The guy who threw your phone?


----------



## Bluenote

spade2you said:


> The guy who threw your phone?


Cool hand said to knock it off, so I'm ignoring this.


----------



## F350Lawman

_*I had to go to a urologist about 8 years ago for an issue unrelated to PED's, and I started talking to the doctor and he did some blood tests and told me my testosterone was on the low normal side...
*_
Glad you refrained.

That's the problem why prescribe something for the "low NORMAL" side? That means you were still in the range, seems like they are too eager to hand out Andro, etc. My buddy had the same exact test results, got the Andro gel, then shots. Then he stops taking them briefly, goes to a different Dr, before his body started producing enough hormone again on its own. Naturally he is way low, and this Dr goes... "oh man your so low your're off the chart" and then gives hims a much stronger dose. So now you have a 53 year old man with naturally low-NORMAL hormone levels now on a MUCH higher dose as if he basically didn't produce his own hormones. Want a higher dose, take less, go back to Dr... claim you took it all and Walla...script for even higher dosages. Its all a game and nobody cares. With the self administered injections they can just save up the dosages, walk around low-normal and then have their own prescribed and drug plan paid for mini-cycles when they feel like doing some real gym time...nuts. For what? In my opinion there is no free-lunch, what the end result after 15-20-30+ years of this will do is a mystery? Personally I don't want these questions answered on my own body so I can get a little leaner or cut.

How is "recreational hormone replacement therapy" different than any of the other substance abuses?


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Cableguy said:


> I think the problem is the assumption that the activity should not be competitive for anyone just because you don't find it to be for yourself at the time. For example lets say you're a Cat1 who shows up to a charity ride and your plan is just to soft pedal and take in the scenery. You don't plan to ride it competitively at all. Then you see a bunch of relatively out of shape riders huffing and puffing past you in their own paceline... but according to you, what they're doing is silly because the whole event should be non-competitive... because you decided it was for yourself? Seems very one sided and judgemental


You have completely missed the point.

My issue is with people "racing" someone who is just out for a fun ride. Or juicers who think they are a hero because they beat someone thirty years older who wasn't trying to race.

Like I said, if a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race, that's great. But don't sit amongst the resreational group and pat yourself on the back for half-wheeling them.


----------



## Local Hero

Bluenote said:


> Cool hand said to knock it off, so I'm ignoring this.


I'm not going to comment on this.


----------



## LostViking

Cinelli 82220 said:


> You have completely missed the point.
> 
> My issue is with people "racing" someone who is just out for a fun ride. Or juicers who think they are a hero because they beat someone thirty years older who wasn't trying to race.
> 
> Like I said, if a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race, that's great. But don't sit amongst the resreational group and pat yourself on the back for half-wheeling them.


Agreed, if Cat racers sandbag at a Rec ride, I think that says someting about them.
They may be "racing" and being "competitive" but - newsflash - the rest of us here for a Rec Ride didn't get the memo that a race has broken out. Do they really feel more manly for having "beaten" us fat Freddies and Wilmas in a Rec Ride morphed into thier own private Il Lombardia? Pretty sad.

If a rider goes to a Cat 2 race and treated it like a Rec Ride, wouldn't that lead to a few raised eyebrows? The inverse is true as well.


----------



## Cableguy

Cinelli 82220 said:


> You have completely missed the point.
> 
> My issue is with people "racing" someone who is just out for a fun ride.


I don't mind you quoting me and jumping in, but you do realize the reason I missed your issue is because I wasn't talking to you about what you quoted right? =P



Cinelli 82220 said:


> Or juicers who think they are a hero because they beat someone thirty years older who wasn't trying to race.


Ok, that's kind of a weird, very specific thing to have an issue with... 



Cinelli 82220 said:


> Like I said, if a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race, that's great. But don't sit amongst the resreational group and pat yourself on the back for half-wheeling them.


So looking back, you have an issue with anyone drafting you for extended periods. You have an issue with anyone pulling you, at a faster than recreational pace. You have an issue with anyone riding behind your wife, as they may just be a pervert looking at her kaboose. You have an issue with anyone who raises their voice, because that probably means they're juiced. I mean, if you're going to cycle with a large group of strangers I think you need to be a little more forgiving... and honestly all of these problems can be solved with polite communication or taking control of your own situation (i.e. start towards the back, when the pace increases too much simply do not follow, etc.)


----------



## Cableguy

LostViking said:


> If a rider goes to a Cat 2 race and treated it like a Rec Ride, wouldn't that lead to a few raised eyebrows? The inverse is true as well.


Riding recreationally at a sanctioned race makes no sense because it is *solely intended* to be raced. A charity type ride, on the other hand, while not necessarily acknowledging a "winner", does not preclude participants from engaging in competition. And I've actually been to many charity rides that do post rider times and even go so far as to declare a winner.



LostViking said:


> They may be "racing" and being "competitive" but - newsflash - the rest of us here for a Rec Ride didn't get the memo that a race has broken out. Do they really feel more manly for having "beaten" us fat Freddies and Wilmas in a Rec Ride morphed into thier own private Il Lombardia? Pretty sad.


So you also have an issue when the competitive type riders aren't even near you, because they might think they're better than you for "beating" you on the ride? Are you serious?


----------



## Local Hero

I was riding in a recreational ride once, just drafting behind an attractive lady. I must have zoned out or something as I was staring at her caboose. Then all of the sudden some juicer roid raged on me and chopped my wheel, sending me careening towards a feed zone volunteer. When I caught up to him I cursed him something awful.


----------



## rydbyk

Cinelli 82220 said:


> You have completely missed the point.
> 
> My issue is with people "racing" someone who is just out for a fun ride. Or juicers who think they are a hero because they beat someone thirty years older who wasn't trying to race.
> 
> Like I said, if a bunch of guys want to go off the front and race, that's great. But don't sit amongst the resreational group and pat yourself on the back for half-wheeling them.


Can we all just agree that at large "organized fun/charity rides" that there will always be a group of guys who will draft and try to complete the ride as fast as possible?

You know what you are getting into by signing up for these "events". 

Take it or leave it. What I don't get are the folks who insist on paying $100 to go ride 100 miles. If the charity is whack (which sometimes it is)...then just go ride 100 miles on your own and deal with a few stop lights along the way to avoid these "annoying" wheel sucker butt starers have been mentioned by some..

.02


----------



## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> I was riding in a recreational ride once, just drafting behind an attractive lady. I must have zoned out or something as I was staring at her caboose. Then all of the sudden some juicer roid raged on me and chopped my wheel, sending me careening towards a feed zone volunteer. When I caught up to him I cursed him something awful.


Once or twice, I've seen a female rider or two who had the figure of a Roman statue. Both must have been really new because they were a little too slow for me to draft off of them without being too obvious. :mad2:


----------



## Local Hero

Local Hero said:


> I was riding in a recreational ride once, just drafting behind an attractive lady. I must have zoned out or something as I was staring at her caboose. Then all of the sudden some juicer roid raged on me and chopped my wheel, sending me careening towards a feed zone volunteer. When I caught up to him I cursed him something awful.


After the ride the attractive female slipped me a little piece of paper with a note that said: 

"Sorry about my (soon to be ex) boyfriend. He get's like that. Call me!"


----------



## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> After the ride the attractive female slipped me a little piece of paper with a note that said:
> 
> "Sorry about my (soon to be ex) boyfriend. He get's like that. Call me!"


so call you maybe?


----------



## LostViking

Cableguy said:


> So you also have an issue when the competitive type riders aren't even near you, because they might think they're better than you for "beating" you on the ride?


Nope, as stated earlier, I just think it's funny.
Not my problem really thier's.


----------



## LostViking

Cableguy said:


> I've actually been to many charity rides that do post rider times and even go so far as to declare a winner.


I've never riden in a recreational ride in which "winners" have been posted. That would indeed change the complexion of our discussion because in such a case, the organizer is at least tacitly acknowledging that some riders may be "racing" to get the best time.

At Gran Fondos, it's accepted that some people are seriously treating the ride as a race while others may view it just as they would any other recreational ride. This might be a better illustration of your point - it's okay to "race" in a rec ride and people who don't agree with you are narrow-minded and intolerant - this would certainly be closer to the mark in the case of a Gran Fondo.

Serious enough for you?


----------



## LostViking

Agreed. If we are going to ride with other people, we need to take our sense of humor with us for the ride. There are all types on a charity ride - some of whom amuse me (the "racers" for example) - that's part of the fun of the ride. I'm sure some riders find me amusing in some way - I'm okay with that as well.

I do a lot of riding by myself, so I enjoy these congregations of the two-wheeled tribes whenever I get a chance - if I can both have a nice ride with like-minded people and contribute to a good cause - I find that a win-win situation.

BTW - What was this thread about?


----------



## rydbyk

LostViking said:


> Agreed. If we are going to ride with other people, we need to take our sense of humor with us for the ride. There are all types on a charity ride - some of whom amuse me (the "racers" for example) - that's part of the fun of the ride. I'm sure some riders find me amusing in some way - I'm okay with that as well.
> 
> I do a lot of riding by myself, so I enjoy these congregations of the two-wheeled tribes whenever I get a chance - if I can both have a nice ride with like-minded people and contribute to a good cause - I find that a win-win situation.
> 
> BTW - What was this thread about?


This thread is about people who don't do steroids, but grab the wheel of an attractive female. Next they stare at her butt for the following 17 miles or so. Little do they know that the boyfriend has grabbed the wheel of said butt starer. At mile 17, boyfriend (who we presume is yoked out on steroids) swerves to cut off butt starer. He then throws what is commonly known as a "roid rage". We have been educated that roids don't always cause "roid rage". In fact some of us have friends who have taken roids who are mellow people...always. Also, we have learned that it is sometimes OK to race during charity rides IF they are gran fondos. Just don't stare are girl's butts...especially if the roided out boyfriend is nearby. Seriously.

Also, albuterol should not be called a PED. Instead instead is should be called a PN or "performance normalizer". 

Also, keep your cool when confronted with roid rage. It impresses the ladies. They will give you their phone numbers if you can keep your cool.

Also, if a cyclist is on any sort of doctor prescribed "therapy" that is considered a PED in cycling circles, they are to make a loud announcement to all cyclists listing said therapy/PEDs that they are taking. This will explain to the crowd of cyclists how you got so fast and why they are all so lame compared to you.


----------



## spade2you

rydbyk said:


> This thread is about people who don't do steroids, but grab the wheel of an attractive female. Next they stare at her butt for the following 17 miles or so. Little do they know that the boyfriend has grabbed the wheel of said butt starer. At mile 17, boyfriend (who we presume is yoked out on steroids) swerves to cut off butt starer. He then throws what is commonly known as a "roid rage". We have been educated that roids don't always cause "roid rage". In fact some of us have friends who have taken roids who are mellow people...always. Also, we have learned that it is sometimes OK to race during charity rides IF they are gran fondos. Just don't stare are girl's butts...especially if the roided out boyfriend is nearby. Seriously.
> 
> Also, albuterol should not be called a PED. Instead instead is should be called a PN or "performance normalizer".
> 
> Also, keep your cool when confronted with roid rage. It impresses the ladies. They will give you their phone numbers if you can keep your cool.
> 
> Also, if a cyclist is on any sort of doctor prescribed "therapy" that is considered a PED in cycling circles, they are to make a loud announcement to all cyclists listing said therapy/PEDs that they are taking. This will explain to the crowd of cyclists how you got so fast and why they are all so lame compared to you.


Given the rage that goes on here, is it safe to assume a few are on roids?


----------



## rydbyk

spade2you said:


> Given the rage that goes on here, is it safe to assume a few are on roids?


How dare you derail this perfect thread! Sounds like a new thread topic to me.


----------



## AJL

spade2you said:


> Given the rage that goes on here, is it safe to assume a few are on roids?


Plain ole testosterone seems to work just fine for that :wink:


----------



## spade2you

rydbyk said:


> How dare you derail this perfect thread! Sounds like a new thread topic to me.


I'd post it if'n I were't THE troll.


----------



## spade2you

spade2you said:


> I'd post it if'n I were't THE troll.


Real classy, Spade. 

Yes, I'm making fun of someone before they can pull that move.


----------



## Local Hero

This thread should include an instructional guide on how to protect your front wheel in the slipstream of an attractive caboose during a grand fondu race. We also need illustrations on how to best dive a turn to prevent getting boxed in during the final 100m run-in to the coffee shop.


----------



## hummina shadeeba

*ditto.*

i'm not into taking the safer route though..unless I eat too much, and then I get a bit woozy and I'm forced to.

I find it can really push my heart too hard and fast if I eat too much and it scares me a bit since I'm vulnerable to palpitations so then I ride slower...but then that coincides with the wooziness and I'm riding slower then anyway.


----------



## rydbyk

totally


----------



## thighmaster

iliveonnitro said:


> Anyone hear of the Bianchi/Grand Performance team?
> 
> You'll occasionally get the occasional guy in a group ride spill to someone he thinks is his friend that hey can hook him up, or that he is getting great results from getting "vitamin shots" or "anti-aging treatment."
> 
> It's not hard to know a lot about doping, especially as a cyclist. As a doctor, I'm sure many worked with cancer patients in a round during residency. Hell, even many people who do blood draws would know how to dope -- and have the tools to separate RBC/plasma.


I was on that team for several years. Didn't know a thing, course that was the better team, and I didn't train with them either. You did hear rumors, but we've heard lots of them. Course now most of them are true. Some of their ringers were also from out of state. Every one from that era moved on as well. You think they invented doping, or were just following suit? Again, the things needed to keep up I suppose. I did talk with Dewey who was on the team, you don't even want to know his side, and being he was one of the very few from the Pap case prosecuted, I beleive him.


----------



## username

Local Hero said:


> I'm confident that many guys over 40 could walk into a urologist's office, claim their energy and sex drive are down etc, and eventually get some testosterone.
> 
> It might take a blood test and interpretation as "low-T" by the urologists. But it's not impossible. Anti-aging docs and urologists write a lot of prescriptions for stuff that is banned by WADA.
> 
> (For the record, I'm not even old enough to race masters!)


By definition, if their % free testosterone is low, they are deficient. Just saying you are tired, and have no libido is not enough to get the prescription. Under your scenario, they have low testosterone. That is a medical condition that is proper to treat.


----------



## spade2you

username said:


> By definition, if their % free testosterone is low, they are deficient. Just saying you are tired, and have no libido is not enough to get the prescription. Under your scenario, they have low testosterone. That is a medical condition that is proper to treat.


It's an epidemic and if my doctor doesn't give it to me, I'll find one that will. 

Kidding aside, I know a few guys, including an active masters racer who's physicians initiated the discussion of starting testosterone replacement despite them feeling alright.


----------



## username

spade2you said:


> Kidding aside, I know a few guys, including an active masters racer who's physicians initiated the discussion of starting testosterone replacement despite them feeling alright.


Interesting. I will bring it up to patients when low T is one of the potential diagnosis' to explain their symptoms. Usually people will ask me about low T. Either way, it can be an effective segway to a discussion about depression. Lots of overlap of symptoms from both conditions 

(Non sequitor- what is the song, something about "what condition my condition is in..)

Men tend to be very resistant to the possibility, but if the T is normal, they are more likely to consider it as a possibility. Bottom line, I will only check the levels if they are going to treat the results. Otherwise I am just spending their money.


----------



## Local Hero

username said:


> By definition, if their % free testosterone is low, they are deficient. Just saying you are tired, and have no libido is not enough to get the prescription. Under your scenario, they have low testosterone. That is a medical condition that is proper to treat.


Now obviously you know more about this than I do. And in my scenario I imagined the doctor doing a blood test after the patient gave the standard symptoms for low testosterone. Then the doctor interpreted "normal low" levels and wrote the prescription. 

What is more interesting is whether doctors write the prescriptions for testosterone when the blood test show "normal" levels. Here's the question: Given that testosterone is known to improve mood, do you think some doctors diagnose depression and write prescriptions for this off label use?


----------



## spade2you

username said:


> Interesting. I will bring it up to patients when low T is one of the potential diagnosis' to explain their symptoms. Usually people will ask me about low T. Either way, it can be an effective segway to a discussion about depression. Lots of overlap of symptoms from both conditions
> 
> (Non sequitor- what is the song, something about "what condition my condition is in..)
> 
> Men tend to be very resistant to the possibility, but if the T is normal, they are more likely to consider it as a possibility. Bottom line, I will only check the levels if they are going to treat the results. Otherwise I am just spending their money.


I would assume that spending their money was the idea behind the television commercials. At the moment, Low T seems more than a little over-hyped. The symptoms are somewhat vague and possibly related to the aging process and/or the long term repercussions of mediocre lifestyles.


----------



## username

spade2you said:


> I would assume that spending their money was the idea behind the television commercials. At the moment, Low T seems more than a little over-hyped. The symptoms are somewhat vague and possibly related to the aging process and/or the long term repercussions of mediocre lifestyles.


True on both fronts. But I work for the patient, not the pharmaceuticals. Its not my money to spend willy-nilly. Kind of a point of pride that I try to save money where it wont impact their health care. I would love to have an app counting all the money I spend in a day. My guess is in the thousands. 

"The symptoms are somewhat vague and possibly related to the aging process and/or the long term repercussions of mediocre lifestyles."

Agreed, the symptoms are vague, and quite varied. That is why the labs are there, and a physician to interpret the labs in the context of the patient's symptoms. On a deeper level, accurate measurement of hypogonadism is difficult as it varies considerably through the day.

Much of what I treat is related to the aging process and the long term effects of mediocre lifestyles. Much like a mechanic working on a bike. It may have been treated poorly and neglected, all the more reason to try to restore it to former glory. 

Lifestyle is always my first 22 choices for treatment of chronic conditions. Unfortunately, many are not ready to commit to the needed changes, or their life is structured such that they cannot carve out the time. By hook or crook, my job is to get people to a healthier state. 
Dennis Bley


----------



## username

Local Hero said:


> Now obviously you know more about this than I do. And in my scenario I imagined the doctor doing a blood test after the patient gave the standard symptoms for low testosterone. Then the doctor interpreted "normal low" levels and wrote the prescription.
> 
> What is more interesting is whether doctors write the prescriptions for testosterone when the blood test show "normal" levels. Here's the question: Given that testosterone is known to improve mood, do you think some doctors diagnose depression and write prescriptions for this off label use?


Low normal is tough to justify. I would avoid treating in that case. Solidly normal I would not write for. That is not a deficiency. Have not heard of folks writing off label for depression in the face of nl testosterone values. Might be done though. Also might be done to boost their practice with the masters/monied/well insured crowd. That would be hard to know from my perspective as no doctor is going to vocalize to his colleagues he is looking for insured athletes that want performance enhancement. 

On separate note, I would support treating people with wasting diseases like emphysema who are spending 30% of their daily calories just trying to breath. Their lifespan is relatively short, so any long term side effects pale to the right now is fricking hard to breathe argument. That is supported by a New England Journal of Medicine article from late 1990s. (Sorry, no link) Moderate doses of IM testosterone increased lean muscle mass by a few KGs. Have not seen it used that way very often, but it makes sense to me. I just don't have many end stage folks with emphysema.
Dennis Bley


----------



## Bluenote

I guess Id like to see some middle ground between politics and medicine. 

Username, what are your thoughts on this? 

What I mean by that is some conditions become very politicized. For example, There is something of a popular culture backlash against anti depressants.

It's a shame if someone who really needs an anti depressant doesn't get it, because of stigma. Therefore, I'm in favor of real research. So these kinds of decisions can be based in evidence. Are medicines the best option, do they work, etc...

The Hospitals here advertise a bunch of studies about T. "Low back pain? Age 45 to 65? Join our study about t levels." If legit research shows there are health issues from low T, then why not treat it?


----------



## username

Bluenote said:


> I guess Id like to see some middle ground between politics and medicine.
> 
> Username, what are your thoughts on this?
> 
> What I mean by that is some conditions become very politicized. For example, There is something of a popular culture backlash against anti depressants.
> 
> It's a shame if someone who really needs an anti depressant doesn't get it, because of stigma. Therefore, I'm in favor of real research. So these kinds of decisions can be based in evidence. Are medicines the best option, do they work, etc...
> 
> The Hospitals here advertise a bunch of studies about T. "Low back pain? Age 45 to 65? Join our study about t levels." If legit research shows there are health issues from low T, then why not treat it?


I could spend a lot of time on this. Reguarding low T and low back pain I don't know. Interesting to see the results of the study. 

"Stigma"
I will argue both sides, but tend towards treatment. 

Lots of folks don't want the diagnosis, let alone the treatment because of societal opinions. Do meds and counseling work- Yes. The combination of both is even better. Often it depends on insurance. Counseling is expensive, and time consuming, with insurance companies fighting to avoid paying for any mental health condition. Also important is whether the person is ready to engage the issues that are causing the symptoms. Can be hard and exhausting work.
The key is to initiate treatment early. The longer someone has had depression untreated, the longer they will benefit from treatment. For folks coming in with four to five years of depression, their life is going to be easier if they take something indefinitely. Not that they can't survive, but smoother. 
The other side of the coin is whether we over treat what prior generations considered "Life". I.E. sometimes life sucks. Just the way it is, sort of thing. 
Heard a saying, You don't understand the blues (music), till you have them. Depression can be crippling; I favor treating folks. For those that would advocate HTFU (rule #5?), consider my view. They come to me hurting or dysfunctional at work, or tearing up good relationships, etc, and my job is to try to fix that. Hard to see someone suffer and not try to help. In the end you discuss with the patient, and figure out a solution on an individual basis. 
Dennis Bley


----------



## Bluenote

Do you think there is enough evidence out there about the impact if low t for you to treat it? 

Or do you think way more study is needed? 

Note - I said for you - not some sweeping opinion for all of medicine.


----------



## username

Bluenote said:


> Do you think there is enough evidence out there about the impact if low t for you to treat it?
> 
> Or do you think way more study is needed?
> 
> Note - I said for you - not some sweeping opinion for all of medicine.


Yes there is enough evidence about the impact of low testosterone to treat it and I do. Not perfect, particularly the measurement tools we have, but adequate for now. As with most things, it exists on a continuum. The lower the levels, the more likely the patient will see benefit. I have treated some patients who come back and say they cannot see a difference where I would have expected them to, so we stop treatment. 
Without a doubt, way more research is needed. 
Better measurement tools (labs)
Better dosing (akin to micro-dosing epo)
Tracking tools (my own personal soap box regarding doping :0)

Dennis Bley


----------



## Bluenote

Do you (and your colleagues) have patients seeing advertising and coming in demanding treatment? 

Or is it mostly men coming in with symptoms and good diagnosing from there?


----------



## username

Bluenote said:


> Do you (and your colleagues) have patients seeing advertising and coming in demanding treatment?
> 
> Or is it mostly men coming in with symptoms and good diagnosing from there?


More folks coming in and wanting to check their testosterone. "I saw on TV..."


----------



## Local Hero

How much could Armstrong make as an Androgel spokesman? 

I've been saying it for months. If I were the guy's rep I'd make him tens of millions.


----------



## spade2you

username said:


> More folks coming in and wanting to check their testosterone. "I saw on TV..."


It's easy to be mad at Big Pharma. They wouldn't do it if it weren't so successful. A society searching for the fountain of youth and wanting a solution in pill form make one hell of a cash grab.


----------



## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> How much could Armstrong make as an Androgel spokesman?
> 
> I've been saying it for months. If I were the guy's rep I'd make him tens of millions.


Yeah, but the angry roadies on Androgel might get angry and stop using it. My head about asploded when I saw a testosterone commercial during a 60 Minutes story about doping in cycling.


----------

