# 24 Spoke Rear too few? (LBS Wheel Advice)



## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Greetings. I have about 600 miles on a set of Reynolds Shadow wheels that came with my bike, and after a recent ride and big blowout on the rear wheel, I noticed that my rear wheel was horribly out of true--to the point that I could turn some of the nipples very easily with my fingers.

I took the wheels to my LBS, who is also a self described super-accomplished wheel builder, and was told that these wheels were "race" wheels, not intended for training, and that at 165 lbs, I am far too heavy for a rear wheel with 24 spokes. I found this odd, since I know I'm about average weight for my height, and I see a lot of wheelsets out there for men with 24 spoke rear wheels which claim rider weights well above 200 lbs. I simply can't imagine that all of these wheels are constantly coming out-of-true for riders above 145 lbs (as seems to have been indicated by the wheelbuilder at the shop). The wheel builder at the shop also refuses to build on carbon rims or hubs, fwiw.

My question is, was I being fed a line by the LBS? Are there durable rear wheels with 24 spokes for riders in the 165 pound range?


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## simonaway427 (Jul 12, 2010)

BS.

I'm 165lbs and run 24 spoke rears.....for 'cross.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

That wheelset is definitely not intended for race day only. Just take a look at the brake tracks for gosh sake. And a 24 spoke count is just fine for your weight. 

Sounds like dood wants you to upgrade so he can make some more money. In his eyes, its way easier and more profitable to sell you some wheels from off the shelf rather than rebuild yours. 

And if refuses to build on carbon rims, he either is not qualified, or simply never has and is too ignorant to see the benefits. 

Regardless, sounds like someone needs to find them self a different LBS.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm 200# and my Campy Neutrons at 22/24 have been fine for a couple of years on quite rough Toronto roads and trails.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm 185 lbs and ride Mavic Kysrium Elite... and this has 20 spokes in the back. Due to the solid rim bed, you get increased strength, which allows Mavic to reduce the spoke counts.

Also, Shimano Ultegra wheels have a similar story to the Mavics I have.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

digita6 said:


> My question is, was I being fed a line by the LBS? Are there durable rear wheels with 24 spokes for riders in the 165 pound range?


I'm sure there are but maybe the LBS dude is just being practical and reserved (like I would be). The next step up is 28 spokes and those extra 4 spokes will make a difference in wheel strength and therefore longevity. There is no free lunch here - less spokes have to do more work per spoke than more spokes. And just what would the *actual benefit* be of less spokes? But then a deeper rim needs less spokes than a shallow rim so maybe we need to know the rim in question before a definitive opinion is given.

But wait - I just looked up that Shadow wheelset and it has a 31mm deep rim. That, with 24 spokes for your weight, should be fine. I'll suspect that the wheelset was never built properly in the first place - sufficient tension, equal tensions and stress relief are paramount to a wheelsets longevity. Read my info in my sig for that stuff. How about getting them re-tensioned, trued and stress-relieved by someone who really *is* good? Maybe that whizz-bang wheelbuilder should have suggested this?



digita6 said:


> I took the wheels to my LBS, who is also a self described super-accomplished wheel builder


If they're saying it and not their customers then guess which one you should believe?


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm at 165+/- and have done *thousands* of kilometers on 24 rears; no problem at all. If the wheel is properly built and tensioned, you're fine.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

digita6 said:


> Greetings. I have about 600 miles on a set of Reynolds Shadow wheels that came with my bike, and after a recent ride and big blowout on the rear wheel, I noticed that my rear wheel was horribly out of true--to the point that I could turn some of the nipples very easily with my fingers.
> 
> I took the wheels to my LBS, who is also a self described super-accomplished wheel builder, and was told that these wheels were "race" wheels, not intended for training, and that at 165 lbs, I am far too heavy for a rear wheel with 24 spokes. I found this odd, since I know I'm about average weight for my height, and I see a lot of wheelsets out there for men with 24 spoke rear wheels which claim rider weights well above 200 lbs. I simply can't imagine that all of these wheels are constantly coming out-of-true for riders above 145 lbs (as seems to have been indicated by the wheelbuilder at the shop). The wheel builder at the shop also refuses to build on carbon rims or hubs, fwiw.
> 
> My question is, was I being fed a line by the LBS? Are there durable rear wheels with 24 spokes for riders in the 165 pound range?


Your wheels come with the RAP 2 yr warranty; what you are describing is not normal wear and tear so it should be covered.

As everybody else has already said, your weight is not the problem with what is happening to your wheels. I also think its time to find another LBS.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks so much for all of the useful responses, which have confirmed my gut feeling. I'm sure that the wheels were factory built, and needed a proper truing and tensioning anyway. He did re-tension and true the wheel, and it has been much more consistent since then, but I was really taken aback by his admonishment and general holier-than-thou attitude. I actually asked about having wheels built with one of the newer 23mm rims (e.g., velocity A23, HED C2, et al.) and his response what that those were really "just for touring bikes". I guess I should have known at that point that his knowledge isn't exactly current.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

digita6 said:


> I actually asked about having wheels built with one of the newer 23mm rims (e.g., velocity A23, HED C2, et al.) and his response what that those were really "just for touring bikes". I guess I should have known at that point that his knowledge isn't exactly current.


Wow. Again, just shows his general lack of knowledge about current products. I would argue that the C2 and the A23 are by far some of the best and most versatile daily drivers on the market today.


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## cfoster (Dec 20, 2007)

digita6 said:


> Greetings. I have about 600 miles on a set of Reynolds Shadow wheels that came with my bike, and after a recent ride and big blowout on the rear wheel, I noticed that my rear wheel was horribly out of true--to the point that I could turn some of the nipples very easily with my fingers.
> 
> I took the wheels to my LBS, who is also a self described super-accomplished wheel builder, and was told that these wheels were "race" wheels, not intended for training, and that at 165 lbs, I am far too heavy for a rear wheel with 24 spokes. I found this odd, since I know I'm about average weight for my height, and I see a lot of wheelsets out there for men with 24 spoke rear wheels which claim rider weights well above 200 lbs. I simply can't imagine that all of these wheels are constantly coming out-of-true for riders above 145 lbs (as seems to have been indicated by the wheelbuilder at the shop). The wheel builder at the shop also refuses to build on carbon rims or hubs, fwiw.
> 
> My question is, was I being fed a line by the LBS? Are there durable rear wheels with 24 spokes for riders in the 165 pound range?


Without being apart of the full conversation, it seems like maybe the guy at the LBS is just maybe conservative in his judgement of what constitutes a decent wheel. I admit that I share many of the same sentiments. Also, not to defend their point of view, but perhaps they've seen a certain amount of problematic "lower" spoke count wheels in the past season or two and have developed a generalized sentiment? Who knows unless you asked or they said?

The marketplace obviously demonstrates that you can build wheels with 24 H rear wheels, and even lower spoke counts. But we get a lot of calls from people trying to get out of these types of wheels and into something that is hassle free. I personally enjoy seeing the recommended rider weights with regards to some specific lower spoke count wheels. From an engineering perspective, I'm sure the math pencils out with a large margin of error such that a 16H-28H spoked rear wheel are no problem for a wide range of rider weights. All the math assumes a decent wheel build, and a decent wheel build requires a good wheel builder and decent component quality.

Thus, math often gives way to assumption.

From my chair I see tons of wheel products and marketing messages that all say "no problem" to lower spoke count wheels , (16H - 24H, and maybe even 28H too), and tons of marketing dollars all purporting this idea that heavier rider weights, etc. are all no problem. But mixing my experience helping people on the phone, and from my experience reading posts on RBR, it seems like the camp is divided between riders that have wheel sets with literally zero issues, and riders that can't even get 1K miles before their wheels are toast. If you take my word, obviously there's something that's not quite right here. I can't overemphasize the importance of spoke/nipple quality when you build a lower spoke count wheel. It really pays to be able to tension, (and stress relieve) spokes with accuracy when you have fewer of them to work with. 

Digita6, trust your instinct. If you've talked with this person at the LBS and your instinct tells you that this person isn't up to speed, that's good. The LBS person's comment about wider rims and touring sounds to me like they are well grounded in their history of the marketplace, perhaps. The current marketing $$$ says wider (23mm) road rims are great. But two years ago that wasn't the case, it was Aero rims are great. Five years ago it was "light weight" rims are great. 15+ years ago there were tons of wider rims, and the industry went narrower/lighter weight for speed, weight, performance, etc. etc. Today, as or this moment, marketing $$$ is saying the same thing about "wider" road rims. Take your pick. Are riders riding faster today becuase of their wheel components? Perhaps to a marginal degree so, but how much money has been spent on custom tailoring bike frames exactly to individual team rider's specific riding position/preference in the saddle, working and scrutinizing their Aero position. Tons of dollars. And if you use aero wheels on a flimsy frame, or aero wheels on a stiff frame with crap cranks? It's all a balance. Which to me is exactly what is so appealing about cycling, the sport emphasizes balance of so many things.

At the end of the day, finding a tire that "feels" good given your particular preferences is more critcal than a 2 or 3mm rim width difference, or a Carbon V aluminum rim. Ride what you want to ride. Most people don't race, but you won't ride at all unless you're excited and love doing it.

I'm glad that your wheels have been trued up and are doing better. You may or may not find yourself dealing with more untrue wheel issues in the future, depending on what the wheel builder did to work on your wheel.

To answer your questions precisely, about being fed a line, not sure? You'd have to ask what experiences that that wheel builder's opinions are founded upon. Their own, or are they parroted from others? Regarding 24H rear wheels for 165 lbs riders, depends on component selection and wheel build quality. "Generic" stainless spoke wire with crap nipples, nope. 120 lbs is still too high. Doesn't matter, only a matter of time before it breaks. 180 lbs on DT/Sapim wire and nipples, built by a good builder, should be no problem.


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## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

If any/all of the statements about needing higher spoke counts are true, then I don't understand how Shimano builds with16 Front and 20 Rear and they are effectively bomb proof in my experience using 7850-50 and 7900-24 over the last 4 years. My riding weight has varied from 180-205.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

carlislegeorge said:


> If any/all of the statements about needing higher spoke counts are true, then I don't understand how Shimano builds with16 Front and 20 Rear and they are effectively bomb proof in my experience using 7850-50 and 7900-24 over the last 4 years. My riding weight has varied from 180-205.


I weighed a friend's low-end Shimano wheelset with 16/20 spokes (I don't remember the model #) a few short years ago and they were heavier than my OpenPro/Ultegra/DT Comp/32-32 wheels. So where was the extra weight? Let's assume the hubs were equal. The Shimano wheels had 28 less spokes & nipples. At 7g per that's 196grams difference in spokes. If the OP wheels and the Shimanos were equal in weight that's 100g per rim heavier for the Shimano wheels. Assuming the OP were a 440g rim then that makes the Shimano rim 540g. Oh wow! All weights approximate of course.

So I wonder what the benefit of the pre-built Shimanos is then for everyday wheels?

There can be no free lunch here. If a wheel is missing spokes (relative to a higher spoke wheel) then the rim has to be heavier or the wheel is weaker.

We can now get 1400 gram wheelsets with 24/28 spokes (CX-Ray) - I have some and they are $500 wheels. What do high-end 16/20 spoke Shimano wheels weigh?  - and cost? 

I have heard from a few people who did break spokes in their low spoke wheels and those wheels usually wouldn't rotate in the frame, so then it's bike carrying time. For us mere mortals that don't have a following team car just what is the benefit of low spoke wheels?

Yes, on this very forum we've heard from 300+lb people who use Rolf wheels (less spokes than your Shimanos). I wonder what those rims weigh as surely Rolf hasn't found the Holy Grail of spoke material that both Sapim and DT can't come up with.

And if 16/20 spoke wheels are ok for 200+lb riders, are sub-150lb riders getting sorely short-changed? Where are the pre-built wheels that are suitable for them? A woman who I mechanic for can't weigh much over 100lbs and she was the one with the Shimano wheels, above, that were heavier than my OP 32/32 wheels. She just about sh*t a brick when I showed her.

She now has some sensible (for her level of racing and training) 1450g wheels with 24/28 spokes. I convinced her that to win a race she first has to finish that race.


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## kneejerk (Feb 2, 2007)

whether it was a line of crap or just ignorance I cannot tell, maybe both... spoke tension is very important to having a strong wheel.... the amount of spokes used and strength of the wheel can depend on factors like spoke lacing pattern / wheel diameter / rim strength / offset / spoke strength... etc...

once that rim gets bent (truely bent) the wheel needs to be replaced or a new rim installed for best performance


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

i worked w/ a guy for 4 years that has built thousands and thousands of wheels. custom, production, mountain, road...lots of experience. but...he was very out of touch w/ current trends in general and what competitive cyclists were interested in in particular. he was very reluctant to build wheels using deep section/lower spoke count carbon rims even though many many customers wanted 'custom' wheels w/ these rims. his 'signature' wheels were low section, 28/32 spoke, alloy rims. he really liked the idea of more spokes for lots of structural support, and wasn't able to get his head around the idea that the rim could be strong enough that you could reduce the number of spokes and still have a strong wheel. at the same time he was unable to understand why some mountain bike riders wanted such heavy duty wheels built. we all went to see the local screening of Life Cycles and he admitted he had 'no idea guys were doing that stuff on mountain bikes'. 
what i'm saying is that while this guy has built more wheels than just about anyone, he was in no way current w/ trends and rider needs. sounds like your lbs guy might be in the same spot.


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## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> .....There can be no free lunch here. If a wheel is missing spokes (relative to a higher spoke wheel) then the rim has to be heavier or the wheel is weaker.
> 
> We can now get 1400 gram wheelsets with 24/28 spokes (CX-Ray) - I have some and they are $500 wheels. What do high-end 16/20 spoke Shimano wheels weigh?  - and cost? ......


I dunno, the heavier 7900-24 tubeless version I have currently weighed right at 1450 and I paid $900 including extra skewers and wheelbags (not that I use either). I don't race, I just want something I won't have to worry about, doesn't slow me down anymore than my native abilities already bog me down, looks cool, and doesn't make all that damn loud ratchety noise.

Hey, I don't disagree with any of what you said. The Dura-Ace definitely aren't lightweight wheels, but (to paraphrase Sammy Sosa) they been berry berry good to me. I'm planning on getting some Enve 3.4 clinchers and use them every day as soon as the Dura-Ace 9790 is available and I can go 11 speed, but that's just because money burns a hole in my pocket.

Back to the OP's question, as far as I can see, I agree with those here saying this particular LBS is wrong, and likely just wanting to up-sell...


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

carlislegeorge said:


> I'm planning on getting some Enve 3.4 clinchers and use them every day as soon as the Dura-Ace 9790 is available and I can go 11 speed, but that's just because money burns a hole in my pocket.


Why not just go with the new White Industries T11 instead? 11 speed compatibility that you don't have to wait for.


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## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Why not just go with the new White Industries T11 instead? 11 speed compatibility that you don't have to wait for.


Other than the heavier weight (was planning a weightweenie-oriented build with Chris King or Tune), I have no real good reason not to do so.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Mike T. said:


> I weighed a friend's low-end Shimano wheelset with 16/20 spokes (I don't remember the model #) a few short years ago and they were heavier than my OpenPro/Ultegra/DT Comp/32-32 wheels. So where was the extra weight? Let's assume the hubs were equal. The Shimano wheels had 28 less spokes & nipples. At 7g per that's 196grams difference in spokes. If the OP wheels and the Shimanos were equal in weight that's 100g per rim heavier for the Shimano wheels. Assuming the OP were a 440g rim then that makes the Shimano rim 540g. Oh wow! All weights approximate of course.
> 
> So I wonder what the benefit of the pre-built Shimanos is then for everyday wheels?
> 
> ...



Shimano's c24 rim weighs 375 grams and is 16/20. It is built up to a 1380 gram dura-ace version and a rs80 version that can be had for $500 with some looking around. They hold up well to everyday use as well. That low spoke count is also one reason why the Shimano wheels do so well in aero tests despite being shallow (24mm rim depth). They have external nipples, so if a spoke breaks and you have a multi-tool you should be able to get home fine.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Cxwrench, that sounds like the situation here. He's probably great at what he knows, but doesn't seem to pay much attention to current trends or technology. I actually like the shop--they have almost any new or vintage part you could ask for--but prefer that shopkeepers who like to dispense advice at least have current knowledge.


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## jpaschal01 (Jul 20, 2011)

carlislegeorge said:


> Other than the heavier weight (was planning a weightweenie-oriented build with Chris King or Tune), I have no real good reason not to do so.


The T-11's look great built up. Here are mine that I just got with Enve 45's.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

jpaschal01 said:


> The T-11's look great built up. Here are mine that I just got with Enve 45's.


Awesome build. I love the logo on the new T11s. How do you like the wheel set?


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## jpaschal01 (Jul 20, 2011)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Awesome build. I love the logo on the new T11s. How do you like the wheel set?


Like them a lot. I've only been able to do 4 solo rides on them so far. Granted, 3 of the 4 are my 3 fastest solo rides ever!

Love the feel of them compared to my prior wheels (Kinlin 27 built on 105 hubs).


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

jpaschal01 said:


> Like them a lot. I've only been able to do 4 solo rides on them so far. Granted, 3 of the 4 are my 3 fastest solo rides ever!
> 
> Love the feel of them compared to my prior wheels (Kinlin 27 built on 105 hubs).


Awesome. Great to hear. Both White and Enve are awesome companies and I think you made a great choice going with their products.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

For what it's worth, I range from 158-165 and smashed all on a used set of Dura Ace 7850 SLs for almost two years. Spoke count 16/20. 

I got the wheels used. While riding them I broke three spokes. My riding included everything from training on farm roads with pot-holes to winning bunch sprints in crits.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

I noticed that the 2013 wheels from Shimano run 16 spokes front, 20 rear and say that there is no rider weight limit. How is it possible for them to do this and still build a durable wheel?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

digita6 said:


> I noticed that the 2013 wheels from Shimano run 16 spokes front, 20 rear and say that there is no rider weight limit. How is it possible for them to do this and still build a durable wheel?


Heavy rim? I don't think there are miracles or free lunches.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

They claim that the rim is 385 grams, which doesn't *seem* particularly heavy. It is also some sort of carbon/aluminum hybrid, and they say that the carbon under the brake track is "structural", as opposed to being merely a fairing. I'm very curious about this.


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## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

digita6 said:


> I noticed that the 2013 wheels from Shimano run 16 spokes front, 20 rear and say that there is no rider weight limit. How is it possible for them to do this and still build a durable wheel?


Just wanna say...this question was answered IN THIS THREAD last week...


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## jpaschal01 (Jul 20, 2011)

carlislegeorge said:


> Just wanna say...this question was answered IN THIS THREAD last week...


And I'm sure the gentleman that asked the question who has been a forum member for less than 2 months will appreciate the warm welcome of your response.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, carlislegeorge, but responses that I saw suggested that perhaps the rim is heavier to the tune of 500+ grams to compensate (it is not). Thus, while the question was addressed, it wasn't answered. If you have some insight into the question (e.g., insight into Shimano's engineering, etc.), I'd be happy to hear it.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Shimano is doing something different with their low spoke count rims. They're durable and light, its gotta be a different alloy. They also corrode like mad with sealant and even soap. 

My big thing with low spoke count wheels is what happens when a spoke breaks? Rims are good enough these days to hold up, but a random breakage can leave you walking very, very far.


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## carlislegeorge (Mar 28, 2004)

digita6 said:


> Thanks for the reply, carlislegeorge, but responses that I saw suggested that perhaps the rim is heavier to the tune of 500+ grams to compensate (it is not). Thus, while the question was addressed, it wasn't answered. If you have some insight into the question (e.g., insight into Shimano's engineering, etc.), I'd be happy to hear it.


Quick search just in RBR turns up posts like http://forums.roadbikereview.com/3865839-post18.html that start to get at an explanation. Am sure it won't take long to find a reasonable answer. I'm no engineer, but as they say it probably ain't rocket science.

I do appreciate you taking the time to offer what you viewed as incomplete about the prior suggestions.


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## kneejerk (Feb 2, 2007)

Spoke breakage out on the road is always a concern of mine and why I like to stick with a higher spoke count (28 or 32) incase one breaks I can true it enough to get home. With a deeper section rim or stiffer rim this spoke count may not be necessary. I also think there are differences in the way that straight pull spokes and "j" bend spokes behave (or determine wheel performance). 

I recently am using a Shimano RS20 wheelset and am finding it very nice when out of the saddle. Feels very stiff, similar to a 28 spoke 30mm rimmed wheelset I came off of... and an Easton EA50SL wheelset (which is also rather stiff). I'm actually rather surprised at how solid the Shimano wheel has felt in back when powering hard out of the saddle with only 20 straight pull spokes. Problem with this wheelset is that it takes a 4mm spoke wrench that Shimano doesn't seem to have in a small version... so I'm carrying the shop tool wrench and another to hold the blade, just in case. A good designed wheelset shouldn't have a problem with a spoke breaking until it reaches some age / fatigue.

So, more and more I'm going away from my paranoia based tendency to go with 28 or 32 spokes. Boutique wheels seem to be getting better and better as of late. Saying that I also, feel the need to say there are a lot of "boutique" wheelsets that are of poor quality.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> I have heard from a few people who did break spokes in their low spoke wheels and those wheels usually wouldn't rotate in the frame, so then it's bike carrying time. For us mere mortals that don't have a following team car just what is the benefit of low spoke wheels?


I always wonder when I hear this kind of accounts if they could have made it back home provided they had used the stowed away spoke key from their saddle bags. 

Mid 90s Campagnola Zondas (20f,24r, 38mm height) were crap in this respect because they had hidden nipples and my rear spokes started breaking and a spoke key would not have saved me; luckily I always made it back home and although the rear wheel was quite out of true but only slightly touched my rear seat stays on my steel frame. I then used the Campa Zondas and the bike as my commuter with 2 broken rear spokes; eventually ditched it after 6 months because I never felt safe with 2 broken spokes in heavy traffic. 

For the next season already replaced my Fulcrum Racing 5s (20f,24r) for Mavic Equipes (20f,20r). The Fulcrums are quite strong (rode them for another 10000km after I bent 2 rear spokes when I tried to remove a cassette without a chain-whip). The Fulcrum bearings are junk though and this was one of the reasons to go back to Mavic (have the Equipes on one of my other bikes as well).


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dracula said:


> I always wonder when I hear this kind of accounts if they could have made it back home provided they had used the stowed away spoke key from their saddle bags.


And how many Mavic wheel owners own one of those kingsize special nipple wrenches and carry i with them on rides? None that I know of.


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