# Pro cyclists who don't dope



## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

Seeing the general consensus on this forum is that most European pros dope, can you think of any pros who you consider definitely DO NOT dope. This may be interesting considering Operation Puerto II is well underway. 
I'll start the ball rolling...um...um...nope, can't think of any.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Not only Europeans, Americans are in the same boat as Tyler and Landis can attest...


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## waterloo (Nov 8, 2005)

gizzard said:


> Seeing the general consensus on this forum is that most European pros dope, can you think of any pros who you consider definitely DO NOT dope. This may be interesting considering Operation Puerto II is well underway.
> I'll start the ball rolling...um...um...nope, can't think of any.


David Millar?


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Thor Hushovd?


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

gizzard said:


> Seeing the general consensus on this forum is that most European pros dope, can you think of any pros who you consider definitely DO NOT dope. This may be interesting considering Operation Puerto II is well underway.
> I'll start the ball rolling...um...um...nope, can't think of any.



Past tense or present tense?

My guess would be that almost every pro has taken a banned substance at some point in his career -- especially the older pros. Prior to the wake up call at the 1998 Tour, I don't think that people worried too much about doping controls. Insofar as none of us are inside a pro team, it is hard to say exactly what goes on within them. But, from the outside, it appears that since the 1998 Tour de France, there has been a fork in the road -- some teams and federations have taken doping control seriously and other have just taken doping evasion seriously. Over the years Jonathan Vaughters has made various comments about his experience with Credit Agricole. I recall one interview in which he essentially said that he would have taken controlled substances when he had his Tour-ending bee sting but for the Team's not allowing or preventing him from doing so. In the instant messaging exchange with Frankie Andreu that surfaced last year, Vaughters remarked that things were different at Credit Agricole than they were at US Postal. It is no coincidence that doping violations seem to be concentrated in certain teams rather than others. US Postal/Discovery is the most interesting: riders don't test positive when they ride for the team, but the alumni seem to have serious doping problems. 

The recent allegations against Team Telekom during the 1996 tour include the claim that Eric Zabel tried EPO but did not like it (or claimed that he did not need it) and did not continue to take it. So, I would nominate Zabel for his being clean in the present tense, but not the past tense. I would put David Millar in the same category. 

Riders such as Brad McGee have been very public in their stance against doping. I would like to believe them. But, after Tyler Hamilton, I am not going to put too much stock in what any rider says about his not doping.


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## Guest (May 1, 2007)

Jens Voigt? 

Said recently (sorry no linky) he does well in short races (e.g. this years ToC), but in GTs he just doesn't have it in him (though he has taken two stages in the TdF). I think he doesn't have the ability to recover quickly enough, and that ability is something only PEDs can fix.


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## euro-trash (May 1, 2004)

AJL said:


> Jens Voigt?
> 
> Said recently (sorry no linky) he does well in short races (e.g. this years ToC), but in GTs he just doesn't have it in him (though he has taken two stages in the TdF). I think he doesn't have the ability to recover quickly enough, and that ability is something only PEDs can fix.


Only Jens knows whether he takes anything illegal (I have my theory, especially since he was brought up in the former East Germany), but his problem is he races like an idiot quite often. It's always impressive, sometimes it's in the benefit of his team, but frequently he's up front killing the pack for no easily identifiable reason.


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## Guest (May 2, 2007)

euro-trash said:


> Only Jens knows whether he takes anything illegal ...


Well, that statement applies to anyone - obviously we are just guessing here.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

I would honestly like to think that these guys are clean.
Magnus
Jens
Zabel
Kabush


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

MarkS said:


> US Postal/Discovery is the most interesting: riders don't test positive when they ride for the team, but the alumni seem to have serious doping problems.


I have always thought this was a very suspicious fact. If there is any truth behind my (and your) suspicions, it will make for a very interesting book someday...


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## LeDomestique (Jan 17, 2007)

+1 on Jens and Erik Z


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

LeDomestique said:


> +1 on Jens and Erik Z


Well, D'Hondt singled Zabel out as one on Telekom who didn't chronically use EPO, he only tried it and didn't think it really helped him. So if D'Hondt is to be believed he was at least willing to dope. He may have used other products that he did feel helped him.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

mtbbmet said:


> I would honestly like to think that these guys are clean.
> Magnus
> Jens
> Zabel
> Kabush


Kabush even wears 'dopers suck' armbands and t-shirts... I like to think doping might not be as present in mountain biking. The norm is short races that are very far apart all season long. How many cases were seen? I just recall the unregretful Filip Meirhaeghe and the very regretful Jerome Chiotti who never got caught but said he doped and gave back his world champ jersey... There also seems to be a more vocal anti-dope stance from top mountain bikers. Apart from Kabush, Thomas Frischknecht was very vocal against Meirhaeghe and his return to racing... I might just be naive though.


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## MellowDramatic (Jun 8, 2006)

Jens, Philippe Gilbert, Erik Z, Thor Hushovd, Millar, Brad McGee


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Based on his performances, Tyler Hamilton might have stopped now...


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Are we saying that sucking it up a few times implies you're not doping? So would that mean that Boonen must not dope becasue he didn't win a big spring Classic or that Freire must not dope becasue he's really on or really off?


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Really I can't think of any riders I would put money on being clean. Moncoutie is widely mentioned and his employment prospects aren't so hot because of that reputation so he's my only possible candidate.

The whole French don't dope thing is ridiculous. At what point did they stop? Festina didn't stop them and the new controls didn't prevent Cofidis from happening. I've never heard they have a lower incidence of "asthma" in the French peloton either.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Ned Overend.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Currently, I would say Cadel Evans and Tom Danielson. They seem to struggle like humans. Who can forget Evans' spectacular collapse in the Giro a few years ago. If he is a doper, he isn't very good at it. From the past, I truely believe that Greg Lemond didn't dope, and that's why it bugs him so much now.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

Fignon's Barber said:


> From the past, I truely believe that Greg Lemond didn't dope, and that's why it bugs him so much now.


In my opinion, Lemond is a bitter man who is ticked that LA out shined him so. Lemond's attacks on LA have been baseless publicity stunts, where he sold his reputation/integrity for a headline or book deal. For that reason (of compromised integrity), I beleive Lemond himself could have been a doper in the past. 

For the record, I am no LA fan, but do believe slandering any man's name with no thread of evidence is just not a good thing to do.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Kestreljr said:


> For the record, I am no LA fan, but do believe slandering any man's name with no thread of evidence is just not a good thing to do.


I think the whole Lemond/Armstrong thing is pathetic both on their parts and then the fans who seem to line up behind one or the other. That being said, doesn't Lemond claim that Armstrong confessed in so many words to doping in a phone conversation?

I'm not sure what you consider evidence but if someone told me they doped I'd consider that pretty good evidence.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

Dwayne Barry said:


> That being said, doesn't Lemond claim that Armstrong confessed in so many words to doping in a phone conversation?
> 
> I'm not sure what you consider evidence but if someone told me they doped I'd consider that pretty good evidence.


I agree, it is pathetic on both sides to how they have carried on over the years. And I am no expert on the LA v. Lemond "saga", but I thought the phone call and subsequent conversations were more about Lance's training, and Lemond kept questioning him on how he could train so hard year round without his body deteriorating. Lance didn't really have answers, just said he could do it. Lemond took his fishy answers as doping, but Lance says he was referring to his natural ability to process waste and his overall body/ oxygen efficiency (which is well documented). 

I have heard about how Heras came to USPS to replicate LA's training, and his body simply couldn't take the massive amounts of saddle time that LA put in, so he had to start scaling back. (Not that Heras helps any doping allegations!)


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Lemond's attacks on LA have been baseless publicity stunts said:


> - See your above paragraph.
> 
> 
> Lemond is obviously bitter now, but I respect his experience and the fact that he speaks from his heart, if not from his head.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

Fignon's Barber said:


> Due to the trek/lemond business relationship, lemond's outbursts clearly hurt him commercially, not financially benefitted him.


Yes, I agree, that after he shot off his mouth, he then realized it was a bad idea financially.



> Haven't seen lemond put out very many books since maybe 1991, although I believe he has one about his retired years in the works.


I was living in Belgium at the time, and Lemond did have a book come out that was published by some French publishing company that made many claims against LA that were totally unfounded. As I understood it, the plan was a French release on the book, that would then spread to Europe and _maybe _cross the pond. However, the book was so baseless that it didn't go anywhere- I don't even think the book sold well in France. 

That is the book deal I was referring to, and I am sure by the power of the Internet, someone will know the exact details... 

As far as your mention about "see your above paragraph"- I am exercising the liberal philosophy of "do what I say, don't do what I do". Al Gore has made this famous...


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Kestreljr said:


> I have heard about how Heras came to USPS to replicate LA's training, and his body simply couldn't take the massive amounts of saddle time that LA put in, so he had to start scaling back.


with all due respect, I find that hard to believe. The canard of lance simply training more than anyone else and not doping, yet somehow beating a very doped peloton on a yearly basis, is absurd.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

blackhat said:


> with all due respect, I find that hard to believe. The canard of lance simply training more than anyone else and not doping, yet somehow beating a very doped peloton on a yearly basis, is absurd.



Uh oh... I feel like I have put myself in a corner to defend LA... this is not something I intended!! No not me! I agree with you blackhat!


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Kestreljr said:


> Uh oh... I feel like I have put myself in a corner to defend LA... this is not something I intended!! No not me! I agree with you blackhat!



so...was heras made to look like a schoolgirl by LA's superawesomedoubleextreme training schedule or did you make that up? you threw it out there, Im just asking where you got it.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

blackhat said:


> so...was heras made to look like a schoolgirl by LA's superawesomedoubleextreme training schedule or did you make that up? you threw it out there, Im just asking where you got it.


That is fair- I got it from reading a news article about Lance's tdf win I think in 2002... in praising Lance's accomplishment Heras talked about some of his motivation in coming to USPS to learn from lance. He then expanded to talk about lance's dedication to saddle time was too much for him to handle and he had to back off.


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## CaseLawZ28 (Jul 14, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> Based on his performances, Tyler Hamilton might have stopped now...


+1....


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## CaseLawZ28 (Jul 14, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> That being said, doesn't Lemond claim that Armstrong confessed in so many words to doping in a phone conversation?
> 
> I'm not sure what you consider evidence but if someone told me they doped I'd consider that pretty good evidence.


Yea. I was in on the conference call.


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

wipeout said:


> Ned Overend.


You are out of your mind. That guy is a pedalling pharmacy.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

snood said:


> You are out of your mind. That guy is a pedalling pharmacy.


Liar.


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

wipeout said:


> Liar.


Give me a break, you are in denial.


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> Kabush even wears 'dopers suck' armbands and t-shirts... I like to think doping might not be as present in mountain biking. The norm is short races that are very far apart all season long. How many cases were seen? I just recall the unregretful Filip Meirhaeghe and the very regretful Jerome Chiotti who never got caught but said he doped and gave back his world champ jersey... There also seems to be a more vocal anti-dope stance from top mountain bikers. Apart from Kabush, Thomas Frischknecht was very vocal against Meirhaeghe and his return to racing... I might just be naive though.


1. Kabush is not a world-class rider.
2. Everybody lies.


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## tricycletalent (Apr 2, 2005)

filtersweep said:


> Thor Hushovd?


No idea. He probably wasn't juiced as a younger rider, considering how hard it is to get a hold on the good stuff in Norway. It has all to do with a near-religious contempt to dopers. They are pretty much focked in their brains, the whole bunch in that little rotten stinky wart of mother earth.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

tricycletalent said:


> 1. Kabush is not a world-class rider.
> 2. Everybody lies.


So . . . maybe you're saying he IS world class? Liar.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

tricycletalent said:


> He probably wasn't juiced as a younger rider, considering how hard it is to get a hold on the good stuff in Norway.


The internet hasn't got to Norway yet?


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## 3car (Jul 3, 2006)

MB1 said:


> Most of the French based pros wouldn't dare dope any more.




Their results would certainly make this statement appear true. I would be angry about it if I were them too.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Pablo said:


> So . . . maybe you're saying he IS world class? Liar.


I'm confused! 

I think he could be a world class rider if he concentrated on the World Cup. He mostly rides with the relatively weak north american field which he almost always crush, even when he's sick but he doesn't appear to have the support to keep moving up. I would love to see him sign with a more Euro/World team like Vredestein-Cannondale or something. But he has finished 3rd at a World Cup last year and he beat Sauser at Sea Other this year. And at Houffalize, he finished 12th despite starting from way back. Come on Geoff, time to take your sideburns to the big leagues!


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

tricycletalent said:


> 1. Kabush is not a world-class rider.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 3rd in UCI rankings does not make him a world class rider? He is the best NA mountain bike pro right now, and has been for the past three years. I think you may want to rethink that.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

snood said:


> You are out of your mind. That guy is a pedalling pharmacy.


Are you retarded?
What exactly is that based on? That he's 50 and can spank most low level pro's? Why would a guy who's 50, who has nothing left to prove to himself or the world, who does not get paid to perform, and races solely for fun have to/want to/need to dope?
I think it's called natural talent.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

mtbbmet said:


> Are you retarded?





mtbbmet said:


> 3rd in UCI rankings does not make him a world class rider? He is the best NA mountain bike pro right now, and has been for the past three years. I think you may want to rethink that.


Confucius says: Easy little tiger... just online forum.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm not wound up, or angry. But stupid statements require these replies.
Just callin em as I see em.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> I'm confused!
> 
> I think he could be a world class rider if he concentrated on the World Cup. He mostly rides with the relatively weak north american field which he almost always crush, even when he's sick but he doesn't appear to have the support to keep moving up. I would love to see him sign with a more Euro/World team like Vredestein-Cannondale or something. But he has finished 3rd at a World Cup last year and he beat Sauser at Sea Other this year. And at Houffalize, he finished 12th despite starting from way back. Come on Geoff, time to take your sideburns to the big leagues!


I was being sarcastic, as usual. But I agree that he's got more potential. He's a big fish in a small pond, which might be better than being a normal fish in a bigger pond.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Pablo said:


> I was being sarcastic, as usual. But I agree that he's got more potential. He's a big fish in a small pond, which might be better than being a normal fish in a bigger pond.


I know you were, I wasn't really confused either, hence the use of the smiling face...


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## snood (Oct 5, 2006)

mtbbmet said:


> Are you retarded?
> What exactly is that based on? That he's 50 and can spank most low level pro's? Why would a guy who's 50, who has nothing left to prove to himself or the world, who does not get paid to perform, and races solely for fun have to/want to/need to dope?
> I think it's called natural talent.


LOL. 

There are a LOT of masters guys who dope solely "for fun", although Ned rides for more than that, contrary to your black and white opinion. I appreciate his talent but he ain't squeaky clean.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

I would think sprinters in general would be less likely to dope. That's not to say they aren't, however they have a very specific certain set of circumstances where they need to show up, and when it's not their time, they go off the back and come in 30 minutes later 

To clarify, if it's a flat stage, then get an armchair ride to the finish, then put on the gas for 300 meters.

As for the French not doping, I definitely think this might be the case. I'm pretty sure I've said it before too. French do seem to always be at the bottom of any race, and if I recall right, French riders are subject to harsher penalties and have less privacy than other nations. I'm pretty sure their houses / residences can be searched at any time.

Isn't this the reason that most non-French riders won't live and train there?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> I would think sprinters in general would be less likely to dope. That's not to say they aren't, however they have a very specific certain set of circumstances where they need to show up, and when it's not their time, they go off the back and come in 30 minutes later
> 
> To clarify, if it's a flat stage, then get an armchair ride to the finish, then put on the gas for 300 meters.


That an interesting analysis, but track sprinters (i.e. runners) have been known to dope as well. It might be less likely, but I'm not sure that it's a certainty (though I don't think you were saying that).


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## BTurn7 (May 20, 2006)

Bob role


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

*on Hushovd*



tricycletalent said:


> No idea. He probably wasn't juiced as a younger rider, considering how hard it is to get a hold on the good stuff in Norway. It has all to do with a near-religious contempt to dopers. They are pretty much focked in their brains, the whole bunch in that little rotten stinky wart of mother earth.


I'd just like to add that I have good reason to believe Thor is clean; 

1) he a specific rider. You don't see him win where he couldn't. He's very good at something: shortish TT and certain hard finishes/sprints.

2) He was, from a very young age, and still is, a national class x-country skier who could have developped into a wold class x-country skier. (not to say they don't dope: see the austrian team in Turino...) But if you know a little about norwegian, you know what it means to be a complete dedicated athlete (as a very high % of the population is over there!). Thor is not off the norms in his progession, history, physiology.

3) I happen to be close to someone who is in a position to second the opinion that he is clean. 

Was is ever to be brought a proof he dopes, I would be very, very surprised, as would be is wife, coach, friends (including Dag-Otto Lauritzen and the rest of his FRENCH pro team...

Doping is organised, there are different schools: american, italian, spanish... All centered around the means: facilities, know-how, access.


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## cthomas (Oct 26, 2003)

*Only LA will sue them into silence*



Kestreljr said:


> I have always thought this was a very suspicious fact. If there is any truth behind my (and your) suspicions, it will make for a very interesting book someday...


Sorry. Had to say it...


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## Guruman (Dec 19, 2005)

*No Dope in the Canadian*

Steve Bauer


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I suspect Bob Roll just because of his overly spirited defenses of other dopers, including LA. Plus I don't know how on earth he never got nabbed for recreational drugs. Do they not test for LSD? ;-)

Sprinters dope just as much as anyone else. You have to be able to ride 220km then stay up front for the next 30+km at 60kph and still have something left before you can start that last 300m. In between banging models and motorpacing on the autostrada Cipo was in Conconi's EPO files and later used Cecchini too.


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## Wiaruz (Jan 2, 2003)

gizzard said:


> Seeing the general consensus on this forum is that most European pros dope, can you think of any pros who you consider definitely DO NOT dope. This may be interesting considering Operation Puerto II is well underway.
> I'll start the ball rolling...um...um...nope, can't think of any.



Bradley Wiggins
Philippe Gilbert
Roger Hammond
Magnus Backsted


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> In between banging models and motorpacing on the autostrada Cipo was in Conconi's EPO files and later used Cecchini too.


He needed the extra edge to bang all those models...


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Why is Phillipe Gilbert considered clean?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> He needed the extra edge to bang all those models...


That's a whole new twist on performance enhancing drugs.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

0 rows returned.


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## Wiaruz (Jan 2, 2003)

He is very outspoken against drug taking, his personal performances, while good, do not portray the consistency and overiding superiority of a rider "a deux vitesse", as the French say. He is a big supporter of the "Ride Clean" Pro Cycling campaign. I also believe he has never tested positive.
None of this means he's definitely clean of course but, as someone else said, only he himself knows the truth.


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

Victor Espiritu


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

I would think the sprinters are the bunch most likely to be clean and any GC rider the least likely. The sprinters may do steroids but they would risk bulking up to much. Personally I can't see EPO or the like helping much. Look at the big tours, if it isn't a buch finish they usually roll in way out the back.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*what*



Chris Oz said:


> I would think the sprinters are the bunch most likely to be clean and any GC rider the least likely. The sprinters may do steroids but they would risk bulking up to much. Personally I can't see EPO or the like helping much. Look at the big tours, if it isn't a buch finish they usually roll in way out the back.



Ever watch track cycling?


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## Otago (Aug 6, 2006)

*Too bad the podium is not tested*



mtbbmet said:


> Are you retarded?
> What exactly is that based on? That he's 50 and can spank most low level pro's? Why would a guy who's 50, who has nothing left to prove to himself or the world, who does not get paid to perform, and races solely for fun have to/want to/need to dope?
> I think it's called natural talent.


It would be nice if after events like the Mt Washington hill climb, that the top 5 or 10 riders were tested to clear up any suspicions. Currently I don't think anyone is tested.
Otherwise it, in this day in age, it is not unreasonable to be suspicious of performances so out of step with age categories. 
Many people who are not paid specifically for races still make considerable income from their standing in the bicycle arena.... 
I doubt certain performances are possible unaided, but without testing we'll never know.
I live near San Francisco. Barry Bonds has never tested positive but most folks aren't gonna be impressed when he passes Hank Aaron's home run record.
At some point, even the most talented and genetically gifted age.......No one is immune from this decline. Look at the track and field world. Find me talent over age 50 in any running event that can come close to younger runners.....any event, any distance.
But believe what you like.....
In my mind, the more unusual...........the more unusual.


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## Chris Oz (Oct 8, 2005)

Sure tack cyclists are walking chemical bags. 

I was thinking about the likes of big Tom Boonen and a like.


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