# An epic battle: Pacenti SL23 vs. cyclist armed with tire jack and New Mich Pro4



## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

I put a used Michelin Pro4 23mm on the front with some difficulty. I knew the new one for the rear was going to be tough. It took me over an hour with tire jack to coax the bead over the rim. Heaven help me if I flat.

Fair warning: Those of you purchasing this rim may want to have 2 tire jacks available and another set of hands. I'll be curious to see how those who flat on the road fare changing tubes. 

The wheel is definitely sturdy. I'm confident it took more abuse tonight than it will get on the road for some time.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Sorry you had a hard time with the tire installation. With tubeless ready rims, it makes a huge difference to make sure the tire is in the recessed portion of the rim.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Put the tires out in the sun to warm them up before mounting. Your troubles are not new to those of us with campy wheels.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

valleycyclist said:


> it makes a huge difference to make sure the tire is in the recessed portion of the rim.


This.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

VinPaysDoc said:


> I put a used Michelin Pro4 23mm on the front with some difficulty. I knew the new one for the rear was going to be tough. It took me over an hour with tire jack to coax the bead over the rim. Heaven help me if I flat.
> 
> Fair warning: Those of you purchasing this rim may want to have 2 tire jacks available and another set of hands. I'll be curious to see how those who flat on the road fare changing tubes.
> 
> The wheel is definitely sturdy. I'm confident it took more abuse tonight than it will get on the road for some time.


LOL, I had the same issue with the same tire in rim in a previous post.
The tire came off much easier (result of a few pinch flats from the installation - I didn't give it an hour).
The next set of tires will be warmed up and stretched, lesson learned.


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

valleycyclist said:


> With tubeless ready rims, it makes a huge difference to make sure the tire is in the recessed portion of the rim.


Unfortunately, it was. Perhaps the veloplugs took up some of that space? Hands are sore this morning.


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

Got a blow dryer out to warm up the remaining section of the tire that was stubborn. I'm just not sure the heat helps the kevlar bead much....


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Suggest lubing the bead liberally with soapy water (or talc)

For reference, in the case of tubeless tires the manual says "*Fitting a Tubeless Tyre* The rims must be lubricated (no oil or grease) all around the circumference to help the tyre slide when being fitted and, in particular, to ensure the tyre clips in and is correctly centered when pressure is increased."

This is also helpful with tubed tires.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

VinPaysDoc said:


> Unfortunately, it was. *Perhaps the veloplugs took up some of that space?* Hands are sore this morning.


Probably. They definitely didn't help. Try that Stan's tape....it's pretty thin.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I have found that with tubeless rims that have a recessed channel, veloplugs make tire mounting more difficult than something thin like the Stan's yellow tape. That's what I install on all my rims. Velocity makes a tubeless tape as well, but I haven't tried it yet.


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

I posted this in another thread last year:

I *never *had any problem mounting tires until I got my new Kinlin rims. They have a very shallow well, so when the bead is pushed to the center, there's not much slack to get the last section of bead over the rim edge. 

Even with no tube and just one bead mounted and down in the center, I can't slide the tire around on the rim to align the label with the valve hole. That's really tight!

I had *sore fingers and mangled levers* when I mounted the tire the first time (and it wasn't a new tire). I wondered how I would change a flat out on the road.

I have a good method now to easily mount the tire with just one lever. *The key is to just lift an inch of bead at a time, then repeat*. It's fast and easy.

Here's a Picasa photo album showing the steps to remove and remount a tire.

Do this:










The shallow well makes it difficult to mount the tire (but it keeps a flat tire on the rim!)









Levers with a flat back (to let the bead slide down to the end) and a rounded tip (to avoid pinching the tube) work the best. I use these Continental levers. Pedro levers are similar, and easy to find.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

I've fitted 28mm Schwalbe and 25mm Vredestein tires on my SL23s, and neither required the aid of a tire lever. The fit was tighter than my H+Son Archetype rims, but not terrible.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

When I was doing the testing for the SL23 rim I mounted, inflated and removed the following tires without much effort. Pro4, Pro3, Vittoria CX Evo, Conti GP 4000, Conti GP and Fortezza Tricomp all went on with little effort as long as the bead was in the center channel, if it is not in the channel getting the tire on will be nearly impossible. 

I am running Pro3's on my personal pair and got a flat 2 nights ago and changed the tube with no tire levers on the side of the road.


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

Perhaps I should replace the veloplugs then. I still shudder at the idea of changing a flat.


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## Crawf (Oct 21, 2010)

Technique. That's all it comes down to, if you have experience with tubeless tyres then you'll know what I mean.
A good example: How to fit a Marathon Plus Tyre.mp4 - YouTube


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

I too had an epic battle with my SL23s just to get the tires on. I had been running Gator skins but when I bought them my LBS was out of the foldable variety so I grabbed the other ones. Once I switched to the SL23s I found that switching back to a foldable was actually doable. Even my LBS couldn't get the non-foldables on there.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Crawf said:


> Technique. That's all it comes down to, if you have experience with tubeless tyres then you'll know what I mean.
> A good example: How to fit a Marathon Plus Tyre.mp4 - YouTube


LOL this is no comparison to how tight things were initially with a foldable Michelin Pro4 SC.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

looigi said:


> Suggest lubing the bead liberally with soapy water (or talc)
> 
> For reference, in the case of tubeless tires the manual says "*Fitting a Tubeless Tyre* The rims must be lubricated (no oil or grease) all around the circumference to help the tyre slide when being fitted and, in particular, to ensure the tyre clips in and is correctly centered when pressure is increased."
> 
> This is also helpful with tubed tires.


^^ +1 ^^

You don't usually need to do this with bicycle tires, but it is essential for motorcycle tires.

Windex spray (or the cheap stuff from the dollar store) works very well.


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

mikerp said:


> LOL this is no comparison to how tight things were initially with a foldable Michelin Pro4 SC.


You are correct sir. Still, I learned something from it. I did not put the bead in the center well while trying to get the last bead on. I'm used to just pulling over the bead right next to the rim. The tire straps were also a nice touch, although I don't think I'll have any out on the road. This gives me hope that I might be able to change a flat.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

No experience with the Pacentis, but if you put just enough air in the tube so it's firm then you can lever the $*** out of the tire to get it onto the rim without worrying about pinching the tube. I seriously don't know why anyone would mount a tight tire with their fingers (slow and painful!) I also have a Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack just in case (but have never needed it.)


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> No experience with the Pacentis, but if you put just enough air in the tube so it's firm then you can lever the $*** out of the tire to get it onto the rim without worrying about pinching the tube. I seriously don't know why anyone would mount a tight tire with their fingers (slow and painful!) I also have a Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack just in case (but have never needed it.)


In my case I wasn't using my fingers, I have a and tried the Kool Stop jack, it didn't cut it, neither did the plastic tire levers.
Wound up using my alloy tire irons that I've had for 30+ years. The Pro4's and SL23's are just a hard fit on until they stretch out.


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

Dunbar said:


> I also have a Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack just in case (but have never needed it.)


Yeah, the Kool Stop was what I was using. I torqued that tire bead for over an hour before I finally got it on.


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## AlphaDogCycling (Sep 18, 2011)

Was able to mount continental 4000s using a single nylon tire iron, so maybe switch tires.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

Absolutely loving this combo:





No levers required to mount the tires.


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## Crappymonkey (Feb 6, 2011)

This is my favorite tool. No tires can beat me now!

Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

Yup. Took over an hour with THAT VERY TOOL......


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

So I take it the SL23 is not made by Kinlin?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

No. It's the Pacenti SL23, made by another manufacturer. 

I wouldn't advise using veloplugs in any of these rims with a center U channel... they need to fit flush to the surface. 

And you need to use a good technique. Tube with a little air, baby powder the tube and tire, beads in the center channel, grab the tire on both sides of the wheel and pull it down towards the part that isn't yet mounted.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Just an update.

I just put a Fusion 3 Tubeless tire on this rim by hand, albeit with a little work. That speaks volumes to me. The same can't be said for the other two rims I tried to put the same tire on. I needed a lever for one and gave up on the other rim.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Update for my experiences with the same combo.
We had a flat on one of the rims (fortunately it was before a ride not on a ride). Based on the feedback from my mounting experiences on another thread I opted to make a change for the repair, that being swap the single layer of cloth rim tape out for a double layer of Stan's 21 mm yellow tape. The reinstall went relatively easy (tire had been stretched out some), the first side went on with fingers only, tube in with no air, the second side went back on with the help of an old alloy tire iron (started from the valve and worked around to the opposite side - pushed the valve into the tire to maximize keeping the tire in the deep part of the rim).


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Start the second side opposite the valve and finish off at the valve. Seriously, I've mounted 4 different tires (different sizes, different brands) on the rims and I don't use levers at all.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

ergott said:


> Start the second side opposite the valve and finish off at the valve. Seriously, I've mounted 4 different tires (different sizes, different brands) on the rims and I don't use levers at all.


I'll give that a shot next round, thinking it through it makes sense. I'm still thinking tubular.


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## offbyone (Apr 26, 2013)

I have been reading a lot about this rim.
Funny thing is I generally ride michelin pros and have a new set waiting and I saw this thread.

The roads can be very bad where I live and sometimes I use dirt connectors on my rides and end up with a bunch of flats. 

Does this problem continue to exist even after the first installation and some riding has stretched the tires out a bit?


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

I just removed the rear tire/tube to true my wheel again. I was able to get the tire off and on with minimal fuss. I did have to use a tire bead jack to finish but I think I could have managed without it if I was on the road. Here's what I've learned:

You need to have the bead sit in the groove in the middle of the rim. This gives more room for maneuvering. This is not like your basic 19 mm rim. Keep the tire bead in the center groove and you'll be OK.

If I were putting a new Michelin on this rim I would warm the tire and dust it with baby powder.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

An old dog can learn some new tricks.
After having a similar experience with the first set SL23's that I built for my son, I opted to build a set of wheels for myself. Having brushed up on my clinchers knowledge from the threads here (being a tubie rider), I gave the front wheel a final true this morning, grab a roll of Stan's tape 21mm, wrapped/stretched 2 layers on the rim. Tossed a brand new Pro4SC into the dryer on low (I had put it on the rim before the wheel build), pulled it out of the dryer, centered it up on the rim and worked it around (continually stretching it on not just rolling it) the first side went on just fine no tools. Grabbed a fresh tube no air (I've read both to put in without air and just puff) popped it into the tire and worked it around. Once it was in the tire nicely I started putting the 2nd half of the tire on (starting from the side opposite the valve), worked it on (same method) until about 8 inches were off the rim at the valve. Using a tire iron, I made 2 lifts and popped the final bit on with my fingers. Verified that the tube was in tire 2x and added one pump from my trusty floor pump, another scan of the edges and message of the tire and tube. Repeated with another pump and check, followed by a pump up to 60psi.
Install time 5 mins, didn't break a sweat, definitely a learned technique, the Stan's tape made it a lot easier.
Thanks all
Mike


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

Thought I would bring this back up to the top as I missed it before. Just built up a set of SL23's and tried to mount a Pro4 on with velo plugs, no way the tire is going on. Pinched 2 tubes twice trying to get them on. Will try with some Stans tape next and all of the little tricks mentioned. I do wonder if these tires will stretch enough to be able to change on the road. I tried just putting the tire on with my normal lever I carry on rides and it snapped the first time which has me worried. Also tried with 25mm Pro4 Endurance and they were maybe a little easier but not significantly. Anyone try 4000S on these rims?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't put veloplugs in rims with tubeless channels, since they don't fit snug against the rim. Stan's tape is probably the best thing to use (2 layers).

I just mounted some GP4000S on a customer's set to seal the tape for tubeless, and they went on fine. Tighter than on the XR279s, but not a problem to install. You need to make sure that the beads are pushed to the center of the rim, and pull the tire down hard with your hands.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

Just replaced the velo plugs with Stans 21mm and I got the tire on without pinching the tube, its still tough but noticeably better. Thanks rruff and everyone else in this thread.


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## offbyone (Apr 26, 2013)

After putting tires on these, I can't believe that you have mounted 4 different NEW tires on these rims without tools. 

I was able to get my Pro4 Comps on, but I can't imagine what I will do when I get a flat. 

These aren't fancy carbon race wheels. So of course I bought this rim as a training wheel. If changing flats is going to be incredibly hard it kind of defeats the purpose of using them as a training wheel.

Maybe I just have to give up on using the Michelin tires.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

It took me an hour to put a Maxxis Refuse on and then when I went to ride the next day it was flat. Apparently the tube was bad. Could not get it back on. Eventually shamed up and took it in to the shop. Mechanic had a tough time. 

Bought VAR tire levers now to maybe help if I flat. Maybe. Hope I do not.


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## offbyone (Apr 26, 2013)

NJBiker72 said:


> It took me an hour to put a Maxxis Refuse on and then when I went to ride the next day it was flat. Apparently the tube was bad. Could not get it back on. Eventually shamed up and took it in to the shop. Mechanic had a tough time.
> 
> Bought VAR tire levers now to maybe help if I flat. Maybe. Hope I do not.


No doubt. From real experience I would not recommend this rim to anyone unless the intended use is as a tubular set up or it will be a race only wheel. You can't train with a wheel that takes extensive time to change a flat.


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## RoadrunnerLXXI (Jun 3, 2012)

Got to love the kevlar folding tires. Easy on, easy off. Never going back to wire bead. Plus, it's kevlar is lighter.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

offbyone said:


> No doubt. From real experience I would not recommend this rim to anyone unless the intended use is as a tubular set up or it will be a race only wheel. You can't train with a wheel that takes extensive time to change a flat.


I think it is a combo of tire and rim. I love the wheel build and this is my second Refuse tire. The first never flatted over 3000 or so miles but got a big chunk out of it. Still did not flat. So I would rather deal with getting the tire on in the garage and worry less on the road. 

But maybe when this wears out I might go to 25's.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Regardless of the tire I agree with some of the other posters... Two layers of thin tape such as Stan's, Velocity, or Specialized tape, squeeze the tire beads into the center channel, and always mount the valve area last.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I've always been a mount at the stem first guy but have been told to end at the stem. Would somebody like to share why one is better than the other. I'm all for change if its better.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

The stem impedes the center channel of the rim so it will not allow the bead to sit there, which will require the tire to be stretched further at the opposite end of the rim. When tires are nice and loose I'll mount at the stem first to hold the valve in place when using a tube.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Good answer Pete.


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## offbyone (Apr 26, 2013)

jmorgan said:


> Just replaced the velo plugs with Stans 21mm and I got the tire on without pinching the tube, its still tough but noticeably better. Thanks rruff and everyone else in this thread.


I had the same result. Velox, Rox no good. Stans helped though. I can get the tires on, but tools are still needed. Flats on the road are still going to be slow but I think doable.


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

Just finished a Pacenti SL23/BHS/Sapim Laser+Race build. I started off with a yellow Ritchey rim strip which was too narrow and made the tire pretty much impossible to install.

I built these for a friend who was bent on riding them *tonight*. I found a roll of this stuff. 3/4" wide filament strapping tape. The width is pretty much perfect! The strands are much closer together in the roll that I have, but this is the stuff: 










I wrapped each rim 2 times. Tire install (Vittoria Open EVO Corsa) was hard, but definitely manageable. For the first bead, just keep it in the center of the rim as you hook the last section over. For the 2nd bead, I got it 90% of the way there and then went around the whole tire pinching the sidewalls to keep both beads in the center of the rim. Voila! Relatively cuss-free installation. 

Does anyone here use this strapping tape as rim tape? I heard about it on Weight Weenies. It's thin and light, but I'll probably pull it out and replace it with the Stan's 21mm tape that I just ordered.

Thanks,
Bob


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

bobonker said:


> Just finished a Pacenti SL23/BHS/Sapim Laser+Race build. I started off with a yellow Ritchey rim strip which was too narrow and made the tire pretty much impossible to install.
> 
> I built these for a friend who was bent on riding them *tonight*. I found a roll of this stuff. 3/4" wide filament strapping tape. The width is pretty much perfect! The strands are much closer together in the roll that I have, but this is the stuff:
> 
> ...


I've used similar tape in the past, and eventually it turned into a gooey mess.


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## bobonker (Feb 12, 2011)

GRAVELBIKE said:


> I've used similar tape in the past, and eventually it turned into a gooey mess.


Ok, thanks. I pulled everything apart today and so far, it looks good. It only needs to last ~1 week until the Stan's tape gets here.

Bob


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

I use the 3M shipping tape. You can use 1 layer if you are going over it with Stans tape to do a tubeless set up. 2 layers if it is all you are using. Sometimes the machining on spoke holes are kinda sharp so your tube pressure can cut one layer.


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## stewartj76 (Jan 2, 2007)

FWIW, I swear by the Crank Brothers Speed Lever. I bought one after trying to get a Pro3 onto a 650 wheel and it's very nice to have some extra leverage to seat the bead.

Amazon.com: Crank Brothers Speed Bicycle Tire Lever Tool: Sports & Outdoors

Haven't needed to take the Pro4s off my BWW blacksets yet, but they were a little tight to get on the first time.


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

View attachment 283475
View attachment 283476
I wish I read this thread first before attempting to mount new tires on these rims. 1st tried to mount with the yellow velo plugs, it just wasn't going to happen. I heated the tires, put velox tape on and with a lot of sweat and screaming m-f er's I got them on. For a road flat I think I'll carry a kool stop tire bead jack, and have gloves on.The good news is I love the way they ride, handle and look. I hope the tire stretches so the next install after a flat will be easier! I plan on riding with tubes just wondering if there is a tire that might be a little easier to mount. FYI my tires are foldable vittoria rubino pro 700x25.
View attachment 283469
View attachment 283470
View attachment 283471
[]


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## AlphaDogCycling (Sep 18, 2011)

Has anyone run tubeless clinchers yet? If so, which and how well do they work / ride?

I'm currently running Continental GP4000s, and I need to replace them, so interested in potentially switching to tubeless.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

rlrj said:


> View attachment 283475
> View attachment 283476
> I wish I read this thread first before attempting to mount new tires on these rims. 1st tried to mount with the yellow velo plugs, it just wasn't going to happen. I heated the tires, put velox tape on and with a lot of sweat and screaming m-f er's I got them on. For a road flat I think I'll carry a kool stop tire bead jack, and have gloves on.The good news is I love the way they ride, handle and look. I hope the tire stretches so the next install after a flat will be easier! I plan on riding with tubes just wondering if there is a tire that might be a little easier to mount. FYI my tires are foldable vittoria rubino pro 700x25.
> View attachment 283469
> ...


Lol. I was thinking of the Vittoria Rubino Pro 25 as a tire that would be easier to mount.


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

I've only taken 2 - 20 mile rides and was hoping for the best against getting a flat on the road, maybe I'll use another wheelset until I get the kool stop tire jack. Its only a matter of time and for the amount of cursing I did at home, if someone sees me trying to fix a flat on the road all sweaty, tired, and pissed I would get committed.LOL. In all the years I have been riding this is by far the hardest wheel to mount a tire on.Just wondering running these with tubes and they are tubeless ready has anything to do with it?


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## VinPaysDoc (May 23, 2005)

Actually, they are much easier to mount once they have stretched a bit. Make sure that you have the beads in the center of the rim when you try to stretch the last bit of the bead over the rim. I've not flatted one yet, but, I hope to be able to get a tube in without hours on the side of the road.....


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

I had a similar battle when I first got the wheels, but I've now flatted twice and after the initial install, it was easy to change roadside.


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

VinPaysDoc said:


> Actually, they are much easier to mount once they have stretched a bit. Make sure that you have the beads in the center of the rim when you try to stretch the last bit of the bead over the rim. I've not flatted one yet, but, I hope to be able to get a tube in without hours on the side of the road.....


thanks, I watched the video in the beginning of the thread after trying with the veloplugs without using the straps and it did help.


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## rlrj (Nov 17, 2005)

bwbishop said:


> I had a similar battle when I first got the wheels, but I've now flatted twice and after the initial install, it was easy to change roadside.


thanks, that's good to know.


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

A lot of people are running tubeless clinchers, without problems. Are your wheels tubeless ready? If so, I don't think you will have any problems, as long as you follow the steps others have mentioned already:

Make sure the tire is warm, start opposite the valve, center the tire bead as deep in the rim channel as possible, and work it on the rim an inch at a time. 
I had to spray a water/soap mixture on the tire one time to get it to slip over the rim, but otherwise I've never had a problem getting the tire on without levers.



AlphaDogCycling said:


> Has anyone run tubeless clinchers yet? If so, which and how well do they work / ride?
> 
> I'm currently running Continental GP4000s, and I need to replace them, so interested in potentially switching to tubeless.


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## echo7 (Sep 7, 2010)

Hi All
I purchased a wheelset from prowheelbuilder with the pacenti sl23 rims. Im now shopping for tires, would the GP Attack/force work with this rim width?

My concern is the front tires being 22mm and rim is 24 mm

thanks


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## weiwentg (Feb 3, 2004)

rm -rf said:


> I posted this in another thread last year:
> 
> I *never *had any problem mounting tires until I got my new Kinlin rims. They have a very shallow well, so when the bead is pushed to the center, there's not much slack to get the last section of bead over the rim edge.
> 
> ...


I just got my SL23 wheels from ergott. Do what this guy said and use the tire lever very carefully, no more than an inch at a time. Worked for me. I was using somewhat stretched Michelin Pro 3s.


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

stewartj76 said:


> FWIW, I swear by the Crank Brothers Speed Lever.
> Amazon.com: Crank Brothers Speed Bicycle Tire Lever Tool: Sports & Outdoors


This thing is absolutely amazing!

I was having a helluva time with my new tires and tubeless rims; it looked like I'd never get the tire on. I tried regular Parks plastic tire tools but I was having to pry so hard I thought they'd break off...and I still had 12" of tire to mount. Seemed hopeless.
I'd never used this tool before but hooked it up, slowly pushed it around the rim and got the tire on in seconds. I was stunned by how easy and how well it worked.
This has got to be the gadget of the year. For around $5 I'll never be without one.

I found a video to show how it works:
Crank Brothers Speed Lever - YouTube


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I just got a new set of these Pacenti SL23 rims. The tires are very difficult to mount. The diameter must have changed since your testing Ligero. I can mount a continental in a few minutes with extreme effort and one lever, but the Conti is a loose fitting kevlar bead tube-type tire. Forget about getting a Hutchinson Tubeless tire on these rims. The drop channels is not low enough.

I used two layers of NoTubes thin yellow tape and definitely had the tire in the center of the rim. I also mounted the valve area last so it would not obstruct the center channel when mounting.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

mtbpete said:


> I just got a new set of these Pacenti SL23 rims. The tires are very difficult to mount. The diameter must have changed since your testing Ligero. I can mount a continental in a few minutes with extreme effort and one lever, but the Conti is a loose fitting kevlar bead tube-type tire. Forget about getting a Hutchinson Tubeless tire on these rims. The drop channels is not low enough.
> 
> I used two layers of NoTubes thin yellow tape and definitely had the tire in the center of the rim. I also mounted the valve area last so it would not obstruct the center channel when mounting.


Fair to say that this same problem applies to the PL23 rim as well?


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I haven't tried the PL23, but the internal rim shape looks the same.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I thought maybe something had changed, but I had no trouble mounting a set of tires (GP4000S) on the latest set of SL23s I built. And the tension drop was only ~10%.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

A sun inferno 27 26" rim weighs 482g. A typical 26in tube weighs 150g (lightweight ones are 100g). A Stan's Arch EX 26in rim weighs 400g. 60g sealant per tire for tubeless use. So 2 x (482-400) + 2 (150-60) = 344g or 3/4 of a pound less for a tubeless set-up plus you can run less air pressure and get no pinch flats and lots of puncture protection with tubeless.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

echo7 said:


> Hi All
> I purchased a wheelset from prowheelbuilder with the pacenti sl23 rims. Im now shopping for tires, would the GP Attack/force work with this rim width?
> My concern is the front tires being 22mm and rim is 24 mm


It will be fine. The Attack will end up ~24mm wide and make a nice aero shape.


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## SprinterX (May 21, 2012)

Like echo7, I have a set of wheels coming with the SL23 rims (with Stans rim tape). Given all the talk of the supple, improved ride quality with latex tubes I was really wanting to try them with some Veloflex tires. I like to weight savings benefits too.

Am I being delirious thinking I can use a fragile latex tube with these rims?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Latex tubes aren't fragile. But you may need to be extra careful installing them. It's possible the latex tube could sneak under the tire bead when it pops onto the shelf.

I don't recall who it was, but someone suggested working the bead onto the shelf with your hands, while the pressure was still pretty low.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

I ride with latex, I found them easier to mount because they are pink and so it's easier to spot if they are sticking out. Only downside is airing up everyday.


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## SprinterX (May 21, 2012)

Just received my new wheelset from PWB with Pacenti sl23 rims (2 wraps of Stans tape) and mounted my used Conti 4000s with Specialized Turbo Ultra Lite tubes. No issues here as I was able to use my hands/fingers to work the tires on to the rims.


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## giostorino (Jun 8, 2008)

Do I need two layers of Stan's tape if I'm using tubes or can I get away with one?


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

No You need 2 layers or the tube pressure will blow thru a nipple hole. I use a layer of re-enforced shipping tape then a layer of Stans.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

changingleaf said:


> I just got a new set of these Pacenti SL23 rims. The tires are very difficult to mount. The diameter must have changed since your testing Ligero.


I was going to use these for a build, but not now. Questionable rim design for sure.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

There may reasons not to use SL23s, but in my opinion, difficulty in mounting tires is not one of them. I have no more difficulty mounting Pro4s on SL23s than I do on HED C2s or a few other rims I have. I use only talc and technique to get the tires on.


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## pivotbolt (Feb 21, 2015)

*Good to Go - Pacenti SL23*

My experience with Pacenti SL23 rims started out much the same as some the postings in front of this one. I built up a set of DT 350 straight pull hubs using Sapim CX Ray spokes and everything came together beautifully and I was anxious to get them on the road.
First mistake was going for the tried and true Velox rim tape. I was not going tube-less so why not use what I have always used. Using new Vittoria Open Corsa CXIII, it was a fight just getting the first bead on. I decided to roll the second bead on without a tube and let it set for a couple of days; maybe the tire would loosen up. I came back in a week and still nothing had changed. I tore up a tube trying to make it work, then I tried a well-loved, loose Michelin Pro3, but the results were the same. I put everything down and headed for my laptop.
I sent a message to Pacenti through their general contact email tool. Within 3 hours I had a personal email from Kirk suggesting I call him directly. It’s not every day you get this kind of support and in the end he solved my problem. Kirk confirmed the rim tape was the first thing to change. He also suggested I start the final beam rolling process opposite the valve and finish with the valve stem (counter to what I was taught 40 years ago). I quickly got some tube-less rim tape, ran two layers as instructed and the tire went on fine, not tools required. They are tighter than my old Open 4’s but I have dealt with much tighter scenarios (Campy Neutrons for example). I have no reservation about taking these wheels on the road, flats will come and I confident the fix will go without issue.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

VinPaysDoc said:


> I put a used Michelin Pro4 23mm on the front with some difficulty. I knew the new one for the rear was going to be tough. It took me over an hour with tire jack to coax the bead over the rim. Heaven help me if I flat.
> 
> Fair warning: Those of you purchasing this rim may want to have 2 tire jacks available and another set of hands. I'll be curious to see how those who flat on the road fare changing tubes.
> 
> The wheel is definitely sturdy. I'm confident it took more abuse tonight than it will get on the road for some time.


You could use thinner rim tape. Two wraps of 1 mil Kapton total about .005" versus .020" for Velox and Veloplugs somewhere in the middle. It's enough to make the difference between cussing at tools and hand-mounting.


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## Maglore (Dec 24, 2012)

Have any of you tried fitting tubeless Schwalbe Ones to a set of SL23s? For your own sanity, I hope not. If you think fitting a set of normal tyres to them is difficult...

After over two hours, two broken Conti tyre levers, a hair drier, soap, hot water and two very, very sore thumbs I finally managed to get them on. The upside, is that they sealed without a hitch, but if I ever get a cut or slash out on the road which the sealant can't cope with, I'm totally screwed.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Or you could have bought one Kool Stop tire bead jack. Trust me, it really works.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ergott said:


> Or you could have bought one Kool Stop tire bead jack. Trust me, it really works.


I just watched a YouTub vid on that tool! You mean I didn't *have* to call the wrecker truck with the two logging chains to get my tire on my Pacenti?


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## framesti (Jan 26, 2009)

*pacenti rim*



Notvintage said:


> I was going to use these for a build, but not now. Questionable rim design for sure.


1)I read somewhere that tight rims are actually less safe. 2) I wonder if Mr Pacenti ever tested this rim.3) Is this made by Kinlin?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

framesti said:


> 1)I read somewhere that tight rims are actually less safe. 2) I wonder if Mr Pacenti ever tested this rim.3) Is this made by Kinlin?


Let's just nip this in the bud as being false. The rims are made according to ETRTO rim specifications set long before Pacenti was making rims. They are not less safe and spreading that sort of information without citing a source is not fair to any manufacturer. People have complained that Campagnolo rims are tight and no one called them unsafe.

Tested these rims for what?

No the rims are not made by Kinlin.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

Notvintage said:


> I was going to use these for a build, but not now. Questionable rim design for sure.


What questionable about the rim design?

I've had mine for 15 months now and IMO they are great wheels.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Going on a year and a half on the wheels I built up with SL23s and they've been fine, including when fixing flats out on the road. I always use a single lever to get a tire off and none to get it on. They're highly regarded by the local cognoscenti around here. As far as I'm concerned, they leave nothing wanting as far as aluminum rims go.


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## framesti (Jan 26, 2009)

*pacenti sl23 rim- not tested*



ergott said:


> "Tested these rims for what?"Has Mr Pacenti ridden this rim, ever got a flat on this rim, and replaced with Mich Pro4 (&other popular tires) himself.As far as tightness of rim, at very least it hurts finger, slows tire change, increases pinch flat risk, frustration all unnecessarily. You could be on side of busy, noisy, road, in cold weather. (I have experience)


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm sure he has. I have. I've used Pro4 on this rim (and Pro3, Veloflex, Hutchinson Secteurs, and others). I had no problem at home or out in the field. They do not increase the chance of a pinch flat. I keep one tire lever in my bag and it's always been enough to get a tire off. I've always put them back on by hand. (I have experience)

I've worked with the rim since Sept. 2012


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

eric - any idea why so many folks, many well experienced, have difficulty with SL23 rims and tire fit?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> eric - any idea why so many folks, many well experienced, have difficulty with SL23 rims and tire fit?


I think it comes down to two things -

1) Lack of correct technique for R&R tires in general. Most (all?) tubeless compatible rims are a tighter tire fit than non-tubeless rims. 
2) Expectations. I don't use tubeless tires. My tires on "normal" rims go on and off just using fingers - no heels of hands, no struggling, no tools. That's not the case with my normal tires (new or well-used) on the tubeless-ready rims that I have. It's a (relative) big struggle with one tire lever and I've no idea how any woman would ever change a tube out on the road. And yes, I do know all the tricks for changing tight tires.

Did I read it in this thread today? - this pearl of wisdom - "If you're not using tubeless tires, don't choose tubeless compatible rims."


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

I haven't found too many people that have still had a lot of difficulty after both using the correct rim tape (Pacenti or Stan's) and the correct mounting technique.

There's nothing wrong with using a tire lever to remove a tire and to finish off the last part of installing one. Some tires I can do with just my hands. 

Tubeless rims depend on a very specific circumference at the bead shelf. If you were to loosen that spec you run the risk of a tire coming off if you get a flat. If you take the time to insure all the tire bead is in that center channel it makes life a lot easier.

I've had to mount tires in front of customers picking up wheels and believe me it would be real embarrassing if I had to struggle with it. That would be enough for me to drop the rims from my offerings.

Keep in mind that tire companies aren't as accurate with their tire bead specs (no tubeless). Notice how some tires people complain about while others say they have no problems? I've spoken to other rim manufacturers about this and they agree.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I think it comes down to two things -
> 
> 1) Lack of correct technique for R&R tires in general. Most (all?) tubeless compatible rims are a tighter tire fit than non-tubeless rims.
> 2) Expectations. I don't use tubeless tires. My tires on "normal" rims go on and off just using fingers - no heels of hands, no struggling, no tools. That's not the case with my normal tires (new or well-used) on the tubeless-ready rims that I have. It's a (relative) big struggle with one tire lever and I've no idea how any woman would ever change a tube out on the road. And yes, I do know all the tricks for changing tight tires.
> ...


Thanks, Mr. T. 

The one problem I have with your final point is that is seems that an increasing number of very attractive, stiff rims coming to the market today are being made as tubeless compatible. While I have no interest in the tubeless part, I do have an interest in a number of those rims (ggh., SL-23).



ergott said:


> I haven't found too many people that have still had a lot of difficulty after both using the correct rim tape (Pacenti or Stan's) and the correct mounting technique.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with using a tire lever to remove a tire and to finish off the last part of installing one. Some tires I can do with just my hands.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Eric.

I just puzzles me how, with a rim that ostensibly needs to be tightly controlled for dimensions in production, that there are so many people complaining abut the difficulty, many of those who would appear to have the requisite experience to be able deal with it without issue.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Tubeless rims are popular because you can always plop a tube in there and be on your way. While you can make almost any rim tubeless with the right rim tape, a tubeless compatible rim is the better option of you are going for new rims/wheels.

I personally prefer larger tubeless tires like the Hutchinson Secteur.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ibericb said:


> Thanks, Mr. T.
> The one problem I have with your final point is that is seems that an increasing number of very attractive, stiff rims coming to the market today are being made as tubeless compatible. While I have no interest in the tubeless part, I do have an interest in a number of those rims


I asked one business insider (rim marketer), a short while ago, why no-one was coming out with a "modern", 23-25mm wide, approx 26mm deep, 450g, *non* tubeless-ready rim and his answer was that it would be retail suicide as "everyone" wanted rims to be tubeless ready and no-one would by a non-tubeless rim.

Well I got news for him. Ok, partial news as I'm not allowed to mention a rim before the marketer does (if they ever do). I did buy two sets of such a rim - 460g, 23mm wide, 26mm deep and I have one pair already built up just waiting for rideable weather. No I won't go test the rim in minus temps with icy roads.

The marketer might have bigger fish to fry but if this rim is what I'm hoping for, I'm gonna be buggin' the snot out of him. This rim could be a winner for the *non*-tubeless crowd (which don't exist according to marketer #1)

And oh yeah - my tires (new & old, two makes) go on & off using fingers only (with Pacanti tape at the moment. I haven't yet tried Velox).


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> I asked one business insider (rim marketer), a short while ago, why no-one was coming out with a "modern", 23-25mm wide, approx 26mm deep, 450g, *non* tubeless-ready rim and his answer was that it would be retail suicide as "everyone" wanted rims to be tubeless ready and no-one would by a non-tubeless rim.
> 
> Well I got news for him. Ok, partial news as I'm not allowed to mention a rim before the marketer does (if they ever do). I did buy two sets of such a rim - 460g, 23mm wide, 26mm deep and I have one pair already built up just waiting for rideable weather. No I won't go test the rim in minus temps with icy roads.
> 
> ...


I agree with this rim marketer. even though you may disagree a good majority want the option of tubeless compatibility. 

Also a tubeless compatible rim does not have to be tough to mount tires.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Ligero said:


> Also a tubeless compatible rim does not have to be tough to mount tires.


I've been mounting tires to hook bead rims ever since they hit the market (hmmm, late '70s?) and know all the tricks for getting them on and off. I've never had an issue with any of my wheel & tire combos until the current set of "tubeless ready" that I own. While it's possible for me the get the tires on without using a lever (much harder than with any of my non tubeless rim and tire combos) it's been impossible to get tires off without using a lever. *And oh yes, my tire beads are down into the center channel.*

I notice the guy in the vid didn't remove any of those tires. Can you do a vid of him doing that?

This can't be simply a matter of "user error" as the internet it covered with reports of other people having the same issues. And if R&R issues with SL23 were not a problem, then why would Kirk come out with a deeper center channel on the SL 25 disc brake rim? 

And before anyone says "So what's the problem with having to use a lever to get a tire off?" I'll say this - there is no "problem" with using a lever (I always carry one as I might run into someone who needs one) but as I know that it's possible to R&R tires without levers and if "tubeless compatibility" isn't required (I'm never going to mess around pouring liquids into my tires) then I would like "modern" rims made so that I don't have to use a lever.

What *I* need is a rim brake version of the SL25 (wink-wink, nudge-nudge). I have a Mike-friendly rim (story in my previous post) but it's from a seller who isn't ready to go public with it yet - if ever. He might decide that the market is too small to bother with. And a potential issue with this rim is that it's a pinned & sleeved joint and not a welded one. I just hope (when I can get out on the roads to test it) that pinned & sleeved has improved from the tubular rims I had back in the '60s and '70s. I remember lots of clicking braking from back in those days.


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## Easyup (Feb 26, 2012)

ergott said:


> Or you could have bought one Kool Stop tire bead jack. Trust me, it really works.


+100, I have arthritis in my hands and without my Kool Stops I could not mount the de rigueur Southern AZ tire, a Gatorskin even if it was worn to near death. I carry one in my jersey on every ride and a sawed off handled one in my MTB and townie seat bag.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Thanks, Mike.

While there will no doubt be a market for more forgiving rims that aren't tubeless compatible, I understand the marketers thoughts. That market may, today, be too limited to warrant to cost and investment burden to bring those kinds of rims to market.

It seems to me the solution to the dilemma is what Pacenti did with the SL-25 vs. the SL-23. Now, if he would just have a rim-brake version of that design, I believe the issue would be addressed. I suspect we'll see something along those lines on the near future.


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> I've been mounting tires to hook bead rims ever since they hit the market (hmmm, late '70s?) and know all the tricks for getting them on and off. I've never had an issue with any of my wheel & tire combos until the current set of "tubeless ready" that I own. While it's possible for me the get the tires on without using a lever (much harder than with any of my non tubeless rim and tire combos) it's been impossible to get tires off without using a lever. *And oh yes, my tire beads are down into the center channel.*
> 
> I notice the guy in the vid didn't remove any of those tires. Can you do a vid of him doing that?
> 
> ...


So your issues is not being able to get tires on without a lever, it is getting them off without one? I don't think that is is in the thought process of any rim designer. When I designed my new rim it never occurred to me being able to get the tire off without a lever and all of the times I have talked rim design with Kirk Pacenti (100's of times) we never talked about how easy the tire would be to get off. On my new rim I dropped the center channel .5mm compared to most tubeless compatible rims and it made mounting a tire very easy as long as it is in the center channel but if the bead is not in the channel it is nearly impossible to get the tire on. I did not show the guy in the video (Me) taking the tires off because I didn't think it was relative. I can remove most of the tires without levers, some I cannot but it is faster to take them off with a lever vs without so would I not use one? If you really want I can make another video of me taking the tires back off. 

Pinned and sleeved rims have come along way since the 70's, really what hasn't? Sleeved rims are actually stronger than welded rims, welded rims came about as a time and money saving manufacturing process.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Ligero said:


> So your issues is not being able to get tires on without a lever, it is getting them off without one? I don't think that is is in the thought process of any rim designer. When I designed my new rim it never occurred to me being able to get the tire off without a lever and all of the times I have talked rim design with Kirk Pacenti (100's of times) we never talked about how easy the tire would be to get off. On my new rim I dropped the center channel .5mm compared to most tubeless compatible rims and it made mounting a tire very easy as long as it is in the center channel but if the bead is not in the channel it is nearly impossible to get the tire on. I did not show the guy in the video (Me) taking the tires off because I didn't think it was relative. I can remove most of the tires without levers, some I cannot but it is faster to take them off with a lever vs without so would I not use one? If you really want I can make another video of me taking the tires back off.


Getting them both on and off is harder (compared to non tubeless rims). I'm sure, as a generalized statement, we can agree on that (of course there will be exceptions). Getting them on is do-able and maybe off is too but there is no point in struggling that much. So out comes the lever. As I'm an "expert" at removing & replacing tires (been doing it without issues for decades) I feel for the less experienced, the weak and the women cyclists I know. Oh I'd just love to see them try to get my tires off the tubeless ready rims!

I'm now wondering how many people actually use the tubeless feature of tubeless-ready rims. As I don't hang around any LBS I'm not up to date on this. I'm concocting a forum question on the topic.



> Pinned and sleeved rims have come along way since the 70's, really what hasn't? Sleeved rims are actually stronger than welded rims, welded rims came about as a time and money saving manufacturing process.


That would be nice. I hope so.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

DT makes their 460 rim pinned. It's definitely come a long way.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ergott said:


> DT makes their 460 rim pinned. It's definitely come a long way.


The only DT rims I own are some 10+ yr old XR 4.1d and they're welded - with a pi$$-poor grind job on the welds - partially covered by decals.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I just built a set of H+Archtype rims/wheels and they are real nice. Excellent appearance, workmanship. I do not need a tool to put a tire on it as I can get the bead over with significant thumb pressure. I just carry one tire level in my patch kit for a flat. On the inside I used 1 layer of stans tape to cover the holes. No problems in that area except you really have to be diligent with the tape as it's really 1mm to wide so you have to be very meticulous as you lay it in there to keep it from getting crooked and to high of the rim walls. I had a couple spots but just trimmed the fat a little with a razor blade and that worked out great. One problem with a tire that will not go on easy enough is you can pinch your tube which is a disaster out on the road. Anyway if you want a nice rim that is easy to mount a tire and tube then the H+ Archtype gets a thumbs up. They only cost about $65.00 which is also pretty awesome. That black sidewall should also be very nice for those of you wanting to run aluminum rims with your disc bike. For calipers it just wears off after a while.. In my case a long time as I do not use my brakes very often.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

DT's current rims are some of the highest quality out there.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

*SL25 VS SL23 mounting new tires. Now that I have experienced both.*

My first two Pacenti wheel builds done. Firstly, as far as quality and ease and co-operation of build. Top notch IMO. Same as the Belgium set I did last year.

SL25, new Vitt Pave 25mm with tubes and SL23 with a Michelin Pro4 Service Coruse rear, Hutch Atom Comp Front. All 2 layers Pacenti blue rim tape. All dry and no tools gong on.

SL23, being I just finished up 1-2 hours ago. Both 28h 3 cross. Non disc set, drive side trailing Sapim Race/brass nips, all the rest Sapim Lasers and DT alloy nips. BHS 210/79 gram hubs. 2.9 lb for both finished wheels before tape.

I will put it this way; not sure I would want to have to fix a flat without some levers with me on the road. I have big huge and strong hands, and It took me about 30-45 seconds to get that last bit over the rim. I'd rate the SL23 a 7/10 level of difficulty.

SL25, similar but easier with the 25mm Paves. 15 seconds to get the last bit over the rim. I did flat a Pave once so far and do not recall actually if I used lever to fix it, but probably did. It was at a rest/coffee shop and a non event. Rate the SL25 a 5-6/10 level of difficulty.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

robt57 said:


> All 2 layers Pacenti blue rim tape.


I'm hesitant to use Pacenti blue rim tape again after having it fail at a spoke hole even with 2 layers. I never ran more then 120psi on them, normally 90 or less and had an issue after about 6 months or so. I have not had any issues with Stans yellow with 2 layers though.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

jmorgan said:


> I'm hesitant to use Pacenti blue rim tape again after having it fail at a spoke hole even with 2 layers. I never ran more then 120psi on them, normally 90 or less and had an issue after about 6 months or so. I have not had any issues with Stans yellow with 2 layers though.



hmm... I never go over 100. I guess I will have to watch out...


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW: I use two layers of 1 mil Kapton tape with no issues. I imagine there might be a problem if there was a burr or very sharp edge on a spoke hole.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

looigi said:


> I imagine there might be a problem if there was a burr or very sharp edge on a spoke hole.


The latest rims that I was building up with slight burrs on the rim-bed holes (and I was going to use Pacenti tape), I de-burred the holes with a countersink in my cordless drill. Perfect!


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## DitzyArris1 (Jan 5, 2016)

hi everyone, new to the forum. Came across this thread in search of answers to fitting Conti GP 4000 tyres on Pacenti SL23 rims. I must've spent 6 hours across 2 days struggling to firstly remove them and then re-installing them, and in the process destroying 3 tubes due to nicking them with levers...Doh! Like several people have said, I dread the day I get a flat out on a ride. As a woman I like to think I can maintain and tackle most bike maintenance/repair jobs but the tyre fiasco frustrated me:mad2: a lot! I finally found an easier way, still a struggle but not quite so frustrating. That is to make sure the beading is sitting in the central channel. I used several cable ties to both hold it in place and squash it down thereby creating more slack. I still needed levers for the last 6 inches or so. Inching round carefully. I've realised you can't rush the last bit and trying whilst stressing is a sure way to fail! There's some great advice on this thread and it was comforting to know men are also struggling! I'm still toying with going tubeless. I have no experience of this tho so have no idea how easy/hard or reliable a combination that would be.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

looigi said:


> FWIW: I use two layers of 1 mil Kapton tape with no issues. I imagine there might be a problem if there was a burr or very sharp edge on a spoke hole.


That totals .005" versus .020" for conventional tapes and strips like Velox, .010" for light strips like Rox, and .011-.012 for two wraps of Stans and filament tapes.

It makes the difference between cussing at tools and comfortably using your hands.

5/8" or 16mm wide or traditional rims, 3/4" or 19mm for wide.

$7.50 + $4 shipping at amazon.com gets you 36 yards for 8 wheels although you can pay less on ebay,


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## bj.bonnette (Jul 16, 2011)

I have had both the v1 and v2 versions of these wheels. GP4k's and s-works turbo tires and never had a problem getting tires on and off. I can put gp4k's on by hand with no issue.


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## DitzyArris1 (Jan 5, 2016)

bj.bonnette said:


> I have had both the v1 and v2 versions of these wheels. GP4k's and s-works turbo tires and never had a problem getting tires on and off. I can put gp4k's on by hand with no issue.


I simply don't have the strength to pull/push/stretch the beading over the rim by hand. There has to be a simple solution, I really don't want to sell this wheelset on as they are a beautiful ride once on the bike. My latest method seems to cut down the frustration somewhat, it's not ideal for roadside repair.


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## bj.bonnette (Jul 16, 2011)

DitzyArris1 said:


> I simply don't have the strength to pull/push/stretch the beading over the rim by hand. There has to be a simple solution, I really don't want to sell this wheelset on as they are a beautiful ride once on the bike. My latest method seems to cut down the frustration somewhat, it's not ideal for roadside repair.



All I do is make sure the tire is down in the center channel after it is over the lip. That is all it takes, with all of it squished down in the middle it slips right on.


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## DitzyArris1 (Jan 5, 2016)

I guess I need more practice. That will have to wait until my thumbs have healed!


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Tubeless can be great, but tubeless tires are generally tighter than tube-type tires so I wouldn't recommend doing it on those rims. The newer Pacenti's and many other rims out there will work much better for tubeless tires.


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## jimhefpgh (Apr 10, 2009)

DitzyArris1 said:


> I guess I need more practice. That will have to wait until my thumbs have healed!


I also have the Pacenti SL23 and Michelin Pro4 tires.

Try the Kool Stop Bead Jack tool. I just got mine delivered from Amazon. It was only about $15 and from what I've read, it works wonders. I haven't used mine yet, but when I do, I plan to make sure the tire is warmed up and will use soapy water as well.


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## DitzyArris1 (Jan 5, 2016)

I'll take a look for that tool. I'm in the UK so if I can't find it over here it could work out expensive if I have to have it shipped. But then if it makes the process easier ...

edit: found it on Amazon UK for £13.00

Cheers for the info!


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

jimhefpgh said:


> I also have the Pacenti SL23 and Michelin Pro4 tires.
> 
> Try the Kool Stop Bead Jack tool. I just got mine delivered from Amazon. It was only about $15 and from what I've read, it works wonders. I haven't used mine yet, but when I do, I plan to make sure the tire is warmed up and will use soapy water as well.


I still have some trouble with the posts regarding mounting tires on the v1 SL23s. I flatted a newish 23C SC Pro last time I rode them and was rolling in 3 minutes. I was in a hurry admittedly, with 3 guys standing there stopped from a fast non-group club ride. I did make some marks on my palms getting the tire back on and did have to use lots of my gorilla hand power. I guess that is the difference as to all these complaints, not all of them can be too thick tape and lack of technique, are many many many...

FWIW, I use one layer Kapton under one layer blue Pacenti tape...

I will take the v1 wider brake surface and deal with it, hulk hands and all...


I think there may also be some torn casing threads upcoming for folks using 2x4 tire jacks. Thread in the tire and on the forum. My 'blank' tire got all lumpy, or started popping off et al.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

robt57 said:


> I still have some trouble with the posts regarding mounting tires on the v1 SL23s. I flatted a newish 23C SC Pro last time I rode them and was rolling in 3 minutes. I was in a hurry admittedly, with 3 guys standing there stopped from a fast non-group club ride. I did make some marks on my palms getting the tire back on and did have to use lots of my gorilla hand power. I guess that is the difference as to all these complaints, not all of them can be too thick tape and lack of technique, are many many many...
> 
> FWIW, I use one layer Kapton under one layer blue Pacenti tape...
> 
> ...


Most of us here know that some rim and tire combos are harder to fit than others, even if we know *all* the tricks of fitting tight tires but any tire & rim combo that I possessed that took extraordinary measures, especially out on the road (how ya gonna warm your tire on a day near freezing?) would be history *really* fast. There is no excuse for it as R&R-friendly combinations do exist.

I'll stoop to the "one lever" thing for removal but if installation wasn't "hands only and with no skin removal" those wheels would be on Craigslist or permanent roller duty so fast it would make their hubs spin


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> I'll stoop to the "one lever" thing for removal but if installation wasn't "hands only and with no skin removal" those wheels would be on Craigslist or permanent roller duty so fast it would make their hubs spin


Absolutely, positively, Yes. I can't agree more emphatically with this statement.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> Most of us here know that some rim and tire combos are harder to fit than others, even if we know *all* the tricks of fitting tight tires but any tire & rim combo that I possessed that took extraordinary measures, especially out on the road (how ya gonna warm your tire on a day near freezing?) would be history *really* fast. There is no excuse for it as R&R-friendly combinations do exist.
> 
> I'll stoop to the "one lever" thing for removal but if installation wasn't "hands only and with no skin removal" those wheels would be on Craigslist or permanent roller duty so fast it would make their hubs spin


Right. If a person doesn't know the tricks or has a problem learning and using them that shouldn't discount their dissatisfaction with a rim. If a rim doesn't work for them it doesn't work for them. 

We're talking about changing a tire here, you shouldn't need to take a class, deal with soap, heat and order special rim tape and jacks just to change a tire. If you need to know 'tricks' beyond what's generally required to change a tire the problem isn't with the person or his/her knowledge it's with the rim (or tire). I understand tubeless compatibility might complicate this but generally speaking.


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## DitzyArris1 (Jan 5, 2016)

I received new wheels today. Some Fulcrum Racing Quattro LGs, clinchers and not tubeless ready like my Pacenti. The Conti GP 4000 tyre went on by hand alone. Mounted and on the bike within 20 mins of being delivered. I think this speaks volumes...


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