# Convince me....................



## Guest (Aug 14, 2010)

I'll turn 50 this year. Ride at least 3,500 miles annually since my early 20's. Have been a Shimano guy since forever. Have never owned Campagnolo, only ridden it once, years ago, when indexed downtube shifters were "it".

Two current bikes are both 9 speed Dura-Ace. Have no need or really, any interest in upgrading to 10 speed. I really like Dura-Ace. It's comfortable. Don't have to think about triimming the FD after changing chainrings, it just happens, a hardwired response comparable to breathing, blinking, etc.

So, back on topic. 50 this year. Waist deep in my midlife confrontation (less dramatic than a crisis), Colnago frame is on it's way to my front door via my friendly brown clad UPS driver. AND all of a sudden I have this completely impractical thought to make the switch to Campagnolo components for this build. It's pure emotion, it has to be. Did I mention I really like Dura-Ace. Hell, maybe I really am closer to a crisis than a confrontation. When I explained to my lovely wife of nearly 30 years of my unexpected yearning to try a new, sexy, dark, Italian "gruppo" after all these years, her simple retort was something to the effect of "this better not be something in that "Podium" section or you will rue the day". Uhhh.......yeah.

I've ridden Pino's for more than a decade, so hurtling the "purest" idea that an Italian heritage bike (notice I didn't write "built") must have Campagnolo components will result in a big, fat...........nothing from me. 

So what's the problem? Did you catch the part where I'm old. The part where I don't have to "think" riding Dura-Ace, everything falls into place, shifting just happens without a thought, chain rub on the FD is trimmed with no memory of such an event. The idea of that little lever on the side of the shifter to downshift. It's intimidating. I'll have to "think". I'm old, I don't like to be embarassed riding with friends. I certainy don't want a Schleck event - the horror.

So you older guys who have taken the plunge and sipped from the Campy waters after years of Shimano...........I'd like to read your experience. If you can use the 16 font option in your reply, it will help me as much as your response itself.

Also, if anyone can get my DVD player clock to quit binking "12:00", PM me.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

I'll give you a good reason..... Because the euro is tanking Super Record is now cheaper at w/s prices than 7900. 

Starnut


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2010)

STARNUT said:


> I'll give you a good reason..... Because the euro is tanking Super Record is now cheaper at w/s prices than 7900.
> 
> Starnut


The current pricing is part of the appeal, although I'm looking at Chorus, as Super Record would be full out crisis mode and require I get a weave on my chest hair as well as wear skimpy little italian designer underwear and drink prosecco for breakfast. 

And pricing won't cover my faux paux of not being able to downshift that little switch while in the drops or constant chain rub because I can't dial in the FD.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

I am not a recent convert to Campy but I have had plenty of 2nd bikes w/ mid range Shimano. I test rode 7900 levers have some sharp edges on the back of the hoods that hurt my (apparently) soft doughy office hands (from a quick test ride). For this reason the current Campy I would say is better ergo than 7900. Shimano braking is supposedly a bit better but Campy is pretty good, especially with the latest levers.

If you set up clicks for no big ring trim, 11-speed Campy does not rub, not from the smallest to second largest cog (when in the big ring). This assumes you have a stiff frame -I have a Madone. A noodly steel frame might rub without trimming. Small ring you need to trim.

The Campy shifting probably has a bit smaller rideable range of adjustment than DA (though I guess DA slipped sum now that the housing is hidden). Still, after settling in 11 speed works well, provided you do not have internal cables that on some bikes makes extra friction.

I recommend getting Chorus. I did but upgraded the brakes to Record. Ribble has Chorus for about $1060 now after the 10% discount code running for Campy. They probably would allow and upgrade but separate piece parts are not much more than the group, so you could pick and chose between groups.

So far the Chorus durability has been excellent, almost getting smoother with time shifting wise3. I have about 3000 miles on my chain and it is not close to showing any wear on the strictest measure of the Park chain length tool.

Finally, I suggest only getting Campy if you work on your bike yourself, as the prices from a shop are almost double of Ribble in England, and Campy is a bit less of a set it and forget it parts group. Finally there are not all that many shops who know Campy anyway. If you do install yourself, get the $40 Park 11-speed chain tool and not the $200 campy tool.

Good luck with your plans. Of course there really is nutin' all that wrong with Dura Ace but a Campy equipped bike does break the Shimano and now SRAM monotony in the bike population.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

billium said:


> I'll turn 50 this year. Ride at least 3,500 miles annually since my early 20's. Have been a Shimano guy since forever. Have never owned Campagnolo, only ridden it once, years ago, when indexed downtube shifters were "it".
> 
> Two current bikes are both 9 speed Dura-Ace. Have no need or really, any interest in upgrading to 10 speed. I really like Dura-Ace. It's comfortable. Don't have to think about triimming the FD after changing chainrings, it just happens, a hardwired response comparable to breathing, blinking, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm 66 and been riding Shimano XT & XTR, dura ace from 86 until last year. I love Shimano.

Shifted to Record last year. Mainly because I do some really steep crooked descents and have never liked the low brake pivots on shimano hoods (I ride from the hoods when it gets really steep and crooked). Along with long descents come long climbs where the 21-24-27 jumps are a bit annoying because the spacing is a bit big from 21-24. 

Campy 11 solved those issues with a high and powerful pivot on their hoods and their 11 speed cuts both of those jumps by 33%. Please note that their calipers are $hit (the only flaw in the groupo) compared dura ace or especially some of the aftermaket calipers like eebrake.

The bonus I never really expected was the comfort of their hoods and the seamless shifting chainrings in either direction. With practice, you will quickly learn to simultaneously drop or gain the right number of cogs simultaneous with changing chainrings (you can drop as many as 4 at a time).

Finally, I've learned to really like their 11 speed 12/29 cassette as it allows me to keep my cadence high on steep climbs.

Do it--you wil never look back (once you train your auto shifting response to the new system).


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Do it for the change. You are getting a Colnago, put some Italian parts on it. Your bike will not ride by itself, and you won't get superfast from the parts, but it will be different. Sometimes different is good. The biggest fear you should have is you will like it and want to swap over the other bikes. I currently run Record 10 on my road bike and Dura Ace 10 on my cross bike. I like them both. I ride them both. It will take time to make shifting second nature like you are used to, but different is sometimes good.


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## kjmunc (Sep 19, 2005)

Do it because Tullio was a genius like no other when it came to inventing and innovating

Do it because Campy = Passion

Do it because you never hear anybody roll their eyes and say "I can't believe he bought THAT bike and put Campy on it......" 

Do it because you owe it to yourself after all these years of riding to at least _try_ Campy

And like Spooky said above, do it for change. Change is good. So is Campy. 

Good luck and happy riding!


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2010)

kjmunc said:


> Do it because Tullio was a genius like no other when it came to inventing and innvating
> 
> Do it because Campy = Passion
> 
> ...


KJ:

You should contact Campagnolo and offer your services, your passionate response is better than most of Campy's print ads of late.



ericjacobsen3 said:


> Ribble has Chorus for about $1060 now after the 10% discount code running for Campy


Thanks for that head's up, eric. Chorus 11 speed for a grand US $ via UK mail order, if I were a US retailer I'd not be thrilled with Campy.



SwiftSolo said:


> I'm 66 and been riding Shimano XT & XTR, dura ace from 86 until last year. I love Shimano.
> 
> Shifted to Record last year. Mainly because I do some really steep crooked descents and have never liked the low brake pivots on shimano hoods (I ride from the hoods when it gets really steep and crooked). Along with long descents come long climbs where the 21-24-27 jumps are a bit annoying because the spacing is a bit big from 21-24.
> 
> ...


Swift, your post carries the most weight for me, thanks.

Do you have Record calipers or Chorus? As eric wrote, I can buy group piecemeal and buy record calipers for little more than Chorus. Thoughts?

Thanks folks, this is getting to be a painless decision.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*about brakes...*

I'm 57 and been using Campy since '95. I totally disagree about the brakes. Even with my small hands, I have no problem producing all the braking power I need for Colorado mountain descents. I dislike brakes that can lock up a wheel with a light touch. It's far easier to get into trouble with that type of setup than one that requires a stronger grip.

There should be no noticeable difference in the operation of Record and Chorus brakes. The only difference is the bushing on the pivot rather than a ball bearing. I've owned both at the same time and never toticed any difference.

I did get some Record brake pads from '07 that I didn't like. They had a gritty sound and kept pulling aluminum particles off the rims. I replaced them with KoolStop salmon colored pads. I got another set of Record brakes the next year and the pads were fine.

As noted, you can setup the FD so the cage has minimal clearance on the right side of the chain and never need a trim click from the big ring. This setup should use 3 clicks of the finger lever to cover the full range of travel. From the little ring, you will need one trim click of the finger lever is use the smallest 2-3 cogs.


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## wr7r (Aug 28, 2004)

I recently converted to Campy about 4 months ago. I don't thing I would ever go back to Shimano. I like Campy because they separated out the gear shifts, which I always got confused with on the Shimano, which makes they easier to use. It does take a little time to get up to the thumb shifter, but that can can be over come.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2010)

wr7r said:


> I recently converted to Campy about 4 months ago. I don't thing I would ever go back to Shimano. I like Campy because they separated out the gear shifts, which I always got confused with on the Shimano, which makes they easier to use. It does take a little time to get up to the thumb shifter, but that can can be over come.


How long had you ridden Shimano before the change to Campy?


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

I rode shimano for 18 years. I ride Campy now. I have evolved. I have ultegra on one bike and campy on the other - there is no question campy is better. No question.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2010)

ronderman said:


> I rode shimano for 18 years. I ride Campy now. I have evolved. I have ultegra on one bike and campy on the other - there is no question campy is better. No question.


Quantify "better" for me. I've never had a "quality" issue with Dura Ace, ever. Never had a part break. Never had a warranty issue, never been stranded, etc. Now if you're referring to ergonomics, then I'll sit up and take notice. I've spoken with folks who have ergonomic issues with the 7700/7800 Dura Ace shifter/brake hoods. I'm still riding 9 speed on both bikes, so not an issue right now. 

This is an ego thing for me, pure and simple. Both Dura Ace and Chorus are way, way above my pay grade as far as what is needed based on my ability, I'm sure more entry level Campy or 105 Shimano would be just fine. I'm just concerned with induging myself with Chorus, only to find that it was no indulgence at all from a practical, mechanical standpoint.

My biggest concerns are:

That little thumb button, and;
Keeping the drivetrain well adjusted (as in quick, concise shifting + quiet), and;
Finding local wrench in central Iowa (I do minor adjustments, but I don't wrench and have no interest in investing in a bunch of Campy specific tools).


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*about maintenance...*

If you don't care to wrench, then maybe you should stick to Shimano. If you buy all of your spare parts like chains and cables from the LBS and pay them to install, then stick with Shimano. You'll quickly be whining about the outrageous prices for Campy parts that are not purchased from the UK. I buy all of my parts from the UK and buy enough chains and cables for 2-3 years, all in one order. Tires are also about half the price at the LBS.

There are almost no special tools for installing a Campy groupo. The cassette lockring tool is different than Shimano and the 11 speed chain requires Park's pin flaring tool, at the minimum. If some company would get their 11 speed master link on the market, then the chain tool would not be needed. Right now, Forester has one, but I'm not paying $20 for a master link. KMC's link is still not readily available and it's not considered to be reuseable, so it's no miracle either. I'd like to see a Wipperman connex link, but it's been almost 2 years since 11 speed came out and still no master links.

Installing the crank requires the same tool used for Shimano outboard BBs. The center fixing bolt for the crank spindle requires a standard 10mm hex bit with a 3/8 or 1/2 inch square drive.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

Look, Dura Ace 7800 is/was a great set. It worked, it needed little maintenance, it shifted, it was quiet, the cranks were stiff and the brakes worked. It looked nice to boot sans the external cables. I just rode a buddies cervelo with 7800 and forgot how that set just worked. 

Campy is the same - I have chorus and it works, it needs little maintenance and like all your above points it never leaves me stranded and I have no warranty issues. Here is where it shines:
1. The hoods are the best hoods out there. Very comfy and ergo shift rocks. My ultegra 6900 or whatever it's called is a mess and I'm 6'3" and the hoods are way too big. Plus on ultegra you can only do two shifts on the upshift - way lame.

2. Braking - man, campy braking while not as strong as shimano, is just better. Think of it as anti-lock brakes. The modulation rocks. Yea, the thumb thing is what it is, but I have no issue and I know guys with 8 year old campy record and they have no issues.

3. C40 is right, campy requires no special tools outside of the chain tool and park has a part for it. Anyone who can't or won't do campy can't do a good build. These are the same fools who don't measure items, throw chains on and the shifting goes to crap inside of 500 miles. Campy isn't the issue, it's the person doing the wrenching. C40 is right, buy the extra parts online and stock them. Chains really aren't meant to be broken anymore, plus you can change them every few thousand miles anyway.

Here is what I can say, is Campy making me faster? No. I would be just as fast or slow with SRAM or Shimano. Heck even 105 would make me the same speed. Is campy better? You bet it is.


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## mcteague (Feb 7, 2005)

I been riding long enough to have owned Nouveau Record and Shimano Crane dérailleurs. In the old days Campy was better at shifting under load but Shimano had a crisper feel. After my Condor Italia was totaled by a car I got a new Eddy Merckx with Super Record. The shifting sucked. It would ghost shift at strange times no matter how much tweaking I did. Simplex retro friction levers, popular with Campy pros, helped a bit. I dumped it for the, then new, Dura-Ace SIS. I did not like how loud the clicks were but everything else was great.

So, I stuck with Shimano over the years and watched Campy very slowly adapt to click shifting. With DA 9 speed I was getting tired of the shape of the hoods which made my hands go numb. I bought Record shifters and an adapter to make it work with the Shimano drive train. Slowly but surely all the bits moved to the Italian brand.

I really love the shape of the new style shifters and, while Shimano finally hid their cables, Campy had done it years before. Centaur is the best value IMO and I find myself replacing old Record\Chorus parts with it. My only issue is that it is nearly impossible to find parts or knowledgeable techs even in big cities. I do 99% of my own work and buy parts from ProBikeKit. In the end, I just have that special connection to Campagnolo that I never had with Shimano. 

Tim


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Please note that their calipers are $hit (the only flaw in the groupo) compared dura ace or especially some of the aftermaket calipers like eebrake.


Huh? I wonder what this could even possibly mean. First of all, as far as I can tell, there is no meaningful difference in function between brake calipers of any brand, period. Heck, the 20-year-old single-pivot Dura Ace brakes on my first real racing bike work exactly as well as the newest Dura Ace, SRAM, or Campy. The only difference between brakes that you will ever see is due to different pads. Throw on identical pads (say, SwissStop, or KoolPads) on different brakes, and you will not be able to tell the difference.


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## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

the brakes are not that bad. They do have a single pivot in the rear and a double pivot option for 2011. They don't have as much power as DA or Sram but don't suck.


@mcteague. You're not locking hard enough. I'm in a smallish (1 million metro) city and I can rebuild an escape shifter in 7 minutes and a QS in about 15 provided I have all the parts and can remember the way the q springs go in :lol:.


Starnut


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Pirx said:


> Huh? I wonder what this could even possibly mean. First of all, as far as I can tell, there is no meaningful difference in function between brake calipers of any brand, period. Heck, the 20-year-old single-pivot Dura Ace brakes on my first real racing bike work exactly as well as the newest Dura Ace, SRAM, or Campy. The only difference between brakes that you will ever see is due to different pads. Throw on identical pads (say, SwissStop, or KoolPads) on different brakes, and you will not be able to tell the difference.


I'm old enough to have ridden in the single-pivot brake days, and I have to say, I think dual-pivots offer more power, all else being equal. I upgraded my '87 Bridgestone to dual-pivs a loooong time ago, was happy with the change, and never looked back. 

Maybe you could say that pads matter _more_ than dual-pivot vs single pivot, but I can't say it doesn't matter at all.
.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> Maybe you could say that pads matter _more_ than dual-pivot vs single pivot, but I can't say it doesn't matter at all.
> .


All I can say is that with those old single-pivot brakes, I could easily flip the bike over from the hoods if I wanted to. I reallly, _really_ don't need brakes that are any stronger than that. The single pivot in the rear is a complete red herring anyway. Any rear brake I have ever seen you have to be careful not to lock the wheel, and that is true for the newest Campy single-pivot rear brakes as well. Why anybody would want stronger braking than that in the rear is beyond me. 

In summary, and IMHO, if it's functionality you need, rather than bragging rights, then Campy brakes work perfectly. That's all that matters to me.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

kjmunc said:


> Do it because Tullio was a genius like no other when it came to inventing and innovating
> 
> Do it because Campy = Passion
> 
> ...



Oh I don't know. I've had a couple of people ask me why I put Campy on this bike:










Notice the Bullet Shifters & Olympic Derailleurs


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Pirx said:


> All I can say is that with those old single-pivot brakes, I could easily flip the bike over from the hoods if I wanted to.
> 
> ... Why anybody would want stronger braking than that in the rear is beyond me.


Perhaps if you're a light rider, and/or have strong/long hands, that's very much true. For me, it isn't.

I'm significantly over 200 lbs, and yet my fingers are a tad on the short side. In a panic stop situation, I might be one-fingering it from the drops, maybe two if I'm lucky. I need brakes that can stop solidly without a ton of encouragement.

Heck, even in non-panic stops, I find even dual-pivs to not always be enough. I currently run SRAM dual-pivs, and on steeper downhills they are adequate-at-best in terms of stopping power for me.

I suspect I'm about to upgrade to KoolStop pads as a result.

And rear-wheel lock-up has never been a prob for me, with any brake. I just seem to have 'the touch'. 
.


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## BlueMasi1 (Oct 9, 2002)

*It's Simple*

You don't want to die a virgin without ever really knowing how Campy feels. You're not getting any younger, you only live once, blah, blah, blah


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

Why not. Give it a shot.
I bought Chorus last year just because I could.

I had been a fan since C-Record but could never afford or justify the extra expense.
I am glad I did. I really like it. To a point I am going to put it on my cyclocross bikes.
Sure hope it holds up to the rigors of cross and trail riding.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2010)

BlueMasi1 said:


> You don't want to die a virgin without ever really knowing how Campy feels. You're not getting any younger, you only live once, blah, blah, blah


See, now this is what I expected from more of the Campy camp. Logic vs. Passion, etc.

I stopped by my LBS yesterday and spoke with the owner, who I've known and done business with for nearly 30 years. He tries to personally take care of most mechanical issues on my bikes. We have a great relationship, if I buy from him, he'll cut labor rates sharply and knock some off the item price. If I eBay or otherwise bring "outside" products in for him to work on, install, adjust, I'm paying full boat labor rates and he's looking for a pizza and beer for the shop at the end of the day to boot if the bill exceeds $100.00. We both know the drill up front and I have no problems with it.

So we talked about Campy, his wrenching abilities on the Italian stuff vs. Japanese vs. US, Campy specific tools, etc. His response was that he's happy to handle the build, do maintenance, etc. on Campy and gave me a couple examples of riders of high end bikes with Campy components seeking him out specifically to work on their bikes during this year's RAGBRAI. He recommended I stay with Shimano if I'm happy with my current reliability/quality. His words (to borrow some infomercial guy): "Set it and Forget it". Suggested SRAM (which he's currently riding on his '10 Madone Project One) for a nice compromise between Shimano and Campy, "Noisy driveline even when dialed in" was his comment on SRAM.

Which leaves his personal observations on Campy. "Beautiful stuff, really beautiful stuff, classic and timeless. But the 11 speed stuff is finicky. Dial it in, ride it a few hundred miles, dial it in, ride a few hundred miles, dial it in.......Eventually, you'll work the cable stretch, component seating issues out, but the driveline tolerances of 11 speed are nearly caliper measurements while your old DA 9 speed tolerances can be measured with a yard stick. I'll adjust the initial set up and two follow ups gratus, after that , you're on the clock at full labor rates plus wood grilled pizza and Peroni for the shop". And I have to buy a Park version of Campy's chain tool for the shop (at his cost - grazie).

So I pulled the trigger last night. Many of the fantastic deals with UK shops are sold out, but still am under $1,100.00 for full 11 speed Chorus.

I hope I love this stuff. I have a friend that bought an old Alfa Romeo for his 40 something birthday. He loved that car. Until he didn't. Then he didn't like that car with a hell of a lot more passion than he ever did when he loved it.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*about adjustment...*

All new bikes suffer the same type of cable seating-in and need a 1/4 to 1/2 turn on the cable tension adjuster after the first ride or two, regardless of brand. If you don't understand how to figure out when to make such an adjustment and what direction to turn a barrel adjuster, I would recommend at least doing that.

If the shifts to larger cogs hesitates, then the cable tension is too low. Turn the adjuster on the RD counterclockwise (like unscrewing a bolt). If you turn the frame mounted adjuster, you still have to make the same sort of adjustment. Turning the barrel from left to right is counterclockwise. In either case, you're effectively making the cable housing longer and increasing tension.

Other than that, you should not need adjustments every few rides as your LBS mechanic suggests. I had frames with no frame mounted adjusters and no adjustment on the FD cable at all. I might have to readjust the FD cable once after a new build and then not again for several thousand miles. Adjusting a FD cable (with no barrel adjuster) is tricky. What you do is shift to the little ring, unclamp the cable, deliberately turn the low limit screw in (CW) about 1/2 turn, pull the cable tight with pliers and reclamp the cable. Return the low limit screw to it's former position and the tension will be increased.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2010)

C-40 said:


> All new bikes suffer the same type of cable seating-in and need a 1/4 to 1/2 turn on the cable tension adjuster after the first ride or two, regardless of brand. If you don't understand how to figure out when to make such an adjustment and what direction to turn a barrel adjuster, I would recommend at least doing that.
> 
> If the shifts to larger cogs hesitates, then the cable tension is too low. Turn the adjuster on the RD counterclockwise (like unscrewing a bolt). If you turn the frame mounted adjuster, you still have to make the same sort of adjustment. Turning the barrel from left to right is counterclockwise. In either case, you're effectively making the cable housing longer and increasing tension.
> 
> Other than that, you should not need adjustments every few rides as your LBS mechanic suggests. I had frames with no frame mounted adjusters and no adjustment on the FD cable at all. I might have to readjust the FD cable once after a new build and then not again for several thousand miles. Adjusting a FD cable is tricky. What you do is shift to the little ring, unclamp the cable, deliberately turn the low limit screw in (CW) about 1/2 turn, pull the cable tight with pliers and reclamp the cable. Return the low limit screw to it's former position and the tension will be increased.


C-40,

I'm fine with rear derailluer and brake adjustments via the adjusting barrels (at least with Shimano), but I appreciate your instructions/directions. I have never messed with FD, will save your recommendations and give them a try if the need presents itself.

Again, at 6', 150 lbs soaking wet, I get by with cassettes/chains/chainrings for much longer than they're probably meant for, and once dialed in, rarely need adjustments to anything drive train related. The Ultegra cassette/chain and DA chainrings on my '05 Pinarello Marvel are original and everything still shifts well.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*one more thought...*

The idea that 11 speed clearances are tighter is totally false. There is more room between the cogs and chain than Shimano 10. Campy also uses more cable pull, per shift, to complete each shift (an average of 2.6mm compared to Shimano's 2.3mm). There is no reason for 11 speed to be more sensitive to adjustments.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

C-40 said:


> There is no reason for 11 speed to be more sensitive to adjustments.


I fully agree. That's just an idea that grew in the heads of some of those ignorant hacks that write articles in those rags sold as bicycling magazines these days, with no basis whatsoever in fact. I haven't adjusted anything on my Campy group for a year now, and the reason it's only a year is that the bike is only a little more than a year old. There is no reason any adjustment should be necessary, and the same is true for any halfway decent component group, be that Campy, Shimano, or SRAM. Unless you got cheap plastic bushings wearing out at excessive rates, nothing will change with your adjustments over a long, long time.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

billium said:


> snip
> 
> Which leaves his personal observations on Campy. "Beautiful stuff, really beautiful stuff, classic and timeless. But the 11 speed stuff is finicky. Dial it in, ride it a few hundred miles, dial it in, ride a few hundred miles, dial it in.......Eventually, you'll work the cable stretch, component seating issues out, but the driveline tolerances of 11 speed are nearly caliper measurements while your old DA 9 speed tolerances can be measured with a yard stick. I'll adjust the initial set up and two follow ups gratus, after that , you're on the clock at full labor rates plus wood grilled pizza and Peroni for the shop". And I have to buy a Park version of Campy's chain tool for the shop (at his cost - grazie).
> 
> snip


The newer cable and shift system is more sensitive to kinks in the cable routing. So this could well be the culprit. This topic has been discussed many times, and some people like C-40 is of the opinion that routing the der cables behind the bar is the best way, as it usually means the widest turning radius. 

Also look up the discussion on proper FD cable routing on the FD clamp, because this has changed from 10-sp to 11-sp. 

A few months ago I installed a new complete Chorus 11 groupset on an old Peter Mooney for a friend, my first 11-sp build. Taking note of all the tips from this forum, I had no problems and only had to help him with a very minor adjustment session 2 weeks later. 

So there are a few new "tricks" to learn, and missing one or two of them may mean the need for frequent adjustments.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> I need brakes that can stop solidly without a ton of encouragement..


My Campy brakes do that just fine, bringing me and my bike to a brutal stop from the hoods if I need it. Just recently I was coming down this hill at 45mph, and then there was this stop sign right around the bend. No problem at all, although I was a bit concerned about overheating the rim and blowing a tire...



SystemShock said:


> I suspect I'm about to upgrade to KoolStop pads as a result..


Good point. Like I said, pads make more of a difference than anything else, period. Oh, and the material and finish of the braking surface on the rims matters, too. I like SwissStop pads a lot, but KoolStop are fine as well.



SystemShock said:


> And rear-wheel lock-up has never been a prob for me, with any brake. I just seem to have 'the touch'.
> .


It's not a problem, but it means that you don't need as much braking force in the rear. Since single-pivot has more than enough of that for the rear wheel, but weighs a bit less, Campy chose to go back to single-pivot in the rear. However, for their new 2011 groups, they do offer both dual and single picot for the rear again. I may order a 2011 group this fall for a new build, and if I do, I'll get it with single-pivot in the rear.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Pirx said:


> My Campy brakes do that just fine, bringing me and my bike to a brutal stop from the hoods if I need it. Just recently I was coming down this hill at 45mph, and then there was this stop sign right around the bend. No problem at all, although I was a bit concerned about overheating the rim and blowing a tire...


How much do you weigh? And did you have a dual-piv in front on the bike that happened on?
.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> How much do you weigh? And did you have a dual-piv in front on the bike that happened on?


About 170lbs. Yes, it's dual-pivot in the front, standard Campy SR group, but with SwissStop pads. The pads the group came with initially would rip pieces of metal out of the rim; apparently a bad batch of pads that Campy made for a while (2008-ish).

Like I said, the 20 year-old Dura-Ace brakes on my steel bike, single pivot, brake just as well, though. That one runs on those anodized Mavic Open 4CD rims, which may improve braking performance. The new bike has Zipp 303/404 clinchers.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Pirx said:


> About 170lbs. Yes, it's dual-pivot in the front, standard Campy SR group, but with SwissStop pads. The pads the group came with initially would rip pieces of metal out of the rim; apparently a bad batch of pads that Campy made for a while (2008-ish).
> 
> Like I said, the 20 year-old Dura-Ace brakes on my steel bike, single pivot, brake just as well, though. That one runs on those anodized Mavic Open 4CD rims, which may improve braking performance. The new bike has Zipp 303/404 clinchers.


Sorry about your rims, that sucks. 

Yeah, I outweigh you by about 70 lbs, Pirx. So I'll take every iota of stopping power I can get. That means dual-pivs, front and rear, and yes, some better pads, as you advocate.

Perhaps when I'm lighter (I've been dropping weight), I won't worry about having single-pivs on my bike. All else being equal, they _are_ more aesthetically pleasing than dual-pivs, I'll give you that.
.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> Sorry about your rims, that sucks.


I caught it early, so it wasn't too bad. I went over it with some fine sandpaper, and it looked like new again. But then, it had been a brand-new rim to begin with...



SystemShock said:


> Yeah, I outweigh you by about 70 lbs, Pirx. So I'll take every iota of stopping power I can get. That means dual-pivs, front and rear, and yes, some better pads, as you advocate..


Ah yes, that would make a difference. Part of it is also personal preference. I don't mind having to grip the brakes firmly in order to get an emergency response, or in other words, I don't want to see hard braking from just a light touch.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Anybody who says Campagnolo is more difficult to install/setup/maintain than Shimano or Sram simply doesn't know what they're talking about.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm a Campy guy. It's been on every road bike I've owned from 1974 to the present. Before that? Simplex or Huret (yuck!!!). I'm currently going through an old age crisis. If I get another bike, I'm half thinking about putting SRAM Force on it. Am I nuts?


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Mapei said:


> I'm a Campy guy. It's been on every road bike I've owned from 1974 to the present. Before that? Simplex or Huret (yuck!!!). I'm currently going through an old age crisis. If I get another bike, I'm half thinking about putting SRAM Force on it. Am I nuts?


In a word, no. Bang for the buck, Sram Force is the best value out there right now. Right there with DuraAce in weight - right there with Ultegra in price. And with the Red "trickle down" in 2010, the stuff works quite well.

And this, too, is coming from a Campy guy.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Some great advice on here, but honestly - you still sound like a Shimano guy to me.


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## BryanSayer (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm turning 50 very soon too, and I've got a custom steel frame on order. I've always been a Campy guy, so that is what I ride.

And I am possibly going to score several 2010 Super Record sets at a really low price.

So if you hold off a week or two, and are interested, and if I get these sets, since we have so much in common, I will hook you up with one.

Send me a PM.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

natedg200202 said:


> Some great advice on here, but honestly - you still sound like a Shimano guy to me.


natedg200202:

If you're referring to me (the OP), you're right, I am. Hence the thread title. 

Email notification today that Chorus shipped from UK, should have next week. From what I've been told, if I don't salavate at least a little upon seeing the components for the first time, there is no hope. 

Hoping for the best (_molto bello_), but plan B if not so much (classifieds here/eBay).


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

billium said:


> KJ:
> 
> You should contact Campagnolo and offer your services, your passionate response is better than most of Campy's print ads of late.
> 
> ...


I haven't ridden Shimano other than on my MTB and for a couple test rides on siblings bikes. I hate the stuff.

You have already been given pretty good advice so far on here, but I will second the thought of trying something new. You are 50. I know it is tough to teach old dogs new tricks, but you really can use the thumb shiftes when you are in the drops, but you have to be up close to the hoods while in the drops. I do it all the time. If you are at the end of the drops, then yeah, it is tough to shift with the thumb shifter, but then again, how easy is it to shift with Shimano if you are all the way at the end of the drops. I have small hands (e.g., small riding gloves, small Mechnix gloves, small hunting gloves), and I can use the thumb shifter in the drops pretty well. Heck, most of my crit racing is done in the drops so it has to be possible.

I just cannot even think about putting Shimano on any of my Colnagos. By the way, which Colnago did you get? I got the green light from my wife for a Master XL this spring as my 40th birthday present. My only debate is whether to go 10 speed record on it by moving that groupo from my C50 and putting Super Record on the C50, or going with something like Mirage or Athena in silver on the Master XL. Shimano isn't even in the picture.


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## thedog (Nov 6, 2005)

billium: you will be very happy with your Campy purchase. Just switched to 11spd. I rode DA 7800 for 6 years, before that DA 9sp. I've test ridden SRAM stuff (don't like the way it shifts). But now I am love with my Campy 11 speed. It shifts great, I get my 16T cog back when I go 11-25, and the brakes are easier on my hands when descending steep tight roads. The hoods are really comfortable, and I really prefer the thumb shifter in sprints.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Pirx said:


> I caught it early, so it wasn't too bad. I went over it with some fine sandpaper, and it looked like new again. But then, it had been a brand-new rim to begin with...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, that would make a difference. Part of it is also personal preference. I don't mind having to grip the brakes firmly in order to get an emergency response, or in other words, I don't want to see hard braking from just a light touch.


This is a nearly exact repeat of the mountain bike arguments of the 80's and earlly 90's. 

To start with both brake calipers and levers have different pivot points the corresponding leverage. Second, eebrake calipers use an entirely different principle that allows significant improvement in modulation.

Most of this has to do with where you ride (pitch, length, and sharpness and frequency of curves). Hand fatigue is especially bad when conditions are wet and all of the above factors are toward the high end. 

Mountain bikers learned, after much debate, that one finger lock up ability was bad only because of the poor modulation typically associate with really powerful brakes. Nearly every serious mountain bike has discs now and nearly every set of discs allow easy one finger lock-up--even in the rain. The difference is that the lever travel (not pressure) required to go from hard -on to lock up is significant. Even more than road bikers, mountain biking (in the mountains) requires precise braking and nobody would think seriously about using the early generations again.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2010)

fabsroman said:


> I just cannot even think about putting Shimano on any of my Colnagos. By the way, which Colnago did you get? I got the green light from my wife for a Master XL this spring as my 40th birthday present. My only debate is whether to go 10 speed record on it by moving that groupo from my C50 and putting Super Record on the C50, or going with something like Mirage or Athena in silver on the Master XL. Shimano isn't even in the picture.


My first choice was the CX-1, but $3,250.00 for a frame isn't going to happen, as my total budget is $4,000.00, all in.

I bought the CLX 2.0 (I believe Colnago's entry level carbon frame - Taiwan built). The head and down tubes are on the chunky side, but they're growing on me. The same tubes are oversize on the CX-1, but they're either better proportioned or the paint scheme does a better job in drawing the eyes away. Regardless, I accidentally stumbled into a decent deal on the CLX while wrangling on a CX-1 (plan then was to simply transfer existing 9 speed Dura-Ace and C24 Dura Ace wheels off current bike). Since the dealer didn't rip my lips off on the frame, figured I'd look into Campagnolo components. Stumbled into an almost better deal on the Chorus 11 speed group, what with exchange rates where they are and UK dealer pricing vs. US Campy dealers. (_edit......credit ericjacobsen3 for UK retailers/Campagnolo pricing_). 

As a side note...... No wonder I can't find a Campy dealer in Iowa, what the hell kind of business model is it where I can buy, retail, via mail order from the UK for less than the US dealers can buy product from Campagnolo wholesale? 

Back on topic, After tallying things up and including a smidge more than a reasonable amount to my LBS for labor/pizza/beer, should have just over $700.00 left of the budget to spring for wheels. Not bad, considering the CLX 2.0 Ultegra complete bike with FSA cranks, Fulcrum Racing 5 wheels, Colnago brake calipers and Ultegra drivetrain retails for $3,699.00.

View attachment 209067


View attachment 209068


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I've pretty much heard nothing but rave reviews of the CLX.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I've pretty much heard nothing but rave reviews of the CLX.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Great looking bike and enjoy the Chorus 11. I've been running SR11 with an FSA K-Force Light BB30 crank with no problems. The thumb shifters are great and the hoods are very comfortable. Before that it was Campy Record 10 and Dura Ace 7spd.

The only issue I have with Campy is that it isn't used much around here and getting a spare wheel during a race or event is harder.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

billium said:


> My first choice was the CX-1, but $3,250.00 for a frame isn't going to happen, as my total budget is $4,000.00, all in.
> 
> I bought the CLX 2.0 (I believe Colnago's entry level carbon frame - Taiwan built). The head and down tubes are on the chunky side, but they're growing on me. The same tubes are oversize on the CX-1, but they're either better proportioned or the paint scheme does a better job in drawing the eyes away. Regardless, I accidentally stumbled into a decent deal on the CLX while wrangling on a CX-1 (plan then was to simply transfer existing 9 speed Dura-Ace and C24 Dura Ace wheels off current bike). Since the dealer didn't rip my lips off on the frame, figured I'd look into Campagnolo components. Stumbled into an almost better deal on the Chorus 11 speed group, what with exchange rates where they are and UK dealer pricing vs. US Campy dealers. (_edit......credit ericjacobsen3 for UK retailers/Campagnolo pricing_).
> 
> ...


Nice looking frame. If you think Campy's business practices in the US are crazy, you should look into Colnago's. I bought my C50 frame for $3,250 from Switzerland, and that included shipping, versus $4,400 here in the US.

Maestro in the UK has the Maestro listed at $2,450, which would equate to $2,550 after shipping. Most dealers in the US are well above that price point. PBK, a pretty good source for Campy, also had Colnagos listed pretty cheap during the 2010 model year. I could have gotten a Master XL from PBK for $1,800 versus the $2,600 being charged here in the US. Now, it seems as though some fo the European retailers have raised their prices some with the 2011 model year. I've also heard that the prices for Colnagos in Asia are really low, especially if you speak the native tongue.

Yep, there are some problems with the Italian "manufacturers" distribution/marketing practices.

Regardless, that frame is going to look awesome with Chorus 11 on it. Look at Maestro for some wheels. I almost dropped $900, which included shipping, on some Campy Shamal tubulars at Maestro, but then decided to go a different route.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2010)

Lookbiker said:


> ............Before that it was Campy Record 10 and Dura Ace 7spd.


We're going back a ways...wasn't DA 7 speed indexed? Remember when I thought index downtube was it after friction shifters. You rode DA 7 speed until Campy Record 10 came out? And here I thought I was slow to adopt new technology.



Lookbiker said:


> The only issue I have with Campy is that it isn't used much around here and getting a spare wheel during a race or event is harder.


Ditto here. Local RR this weekend, out of approx. 90 entrants..........I saw two Campy equiped. SRAM seems to be the group making hay with amature racers these days.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2010)

fabsroman said:


> Yep, there are some problems with the Italian "manufacturers" distribution/marketing practices.


I'd like to have a conversation with a US retail dealer and hear their side of it. Or not.



fabsroman said:


> Regardless, that frame is going to look awesome with Chorus 11 on it. Look at Maestro for some wheels. I almost dropped $900, which included shipping, on some Campy Shamal tubulars at Maestro, but then decided to go a different route.


Took a quick tour around Maestro's website, thanks for the resource.

I'm pondering wheels at this point. After riding Ksyrium SSC SL's as my everyday wheelset for 5 years, I bought a set of Dura-Ace C24 clincher's this Spring. These are the best all around wheels I've ever ridden/owned. Combined with Vittoria 320 TPI tires, darn plush ride compared to the SSC SL's/GP 4000's. I'm sold on the aluminum braking surface/ability to retain standard brake pads. 

I'll be sticking with clinchers, can't imagine riding tubbies as an everyday wheel/tire. If you ride them daily, how do you cope with flats? I enjoy looking at the pictures of Dogma's with the Borlas and Borla Ultra's, it's a great look. But can't imagine living with them on a daily basis. Prefer a mid profile rim with non aero (or barely aero) spokes. Have ridden the SSC SL's so long that I quit noticing how much I fought them in even minor side winds.....until I bought the Dura Ace C24's. 

$700.00 budget will limit my choices, but I'll find something I'll be happy with. I have a couple friends who are wheel freaks and buy the latest and greatest every year or so. They've been a good source for used wheelsets in the past.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

billium said:


> I'd like to have a conversation with a US retail dealer and hear their side of it. Or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Talk to Justin at Pista Palace. He is dropping Colnago. Another retailer by me, and a sponsor of my team, has also dropped the brand (Not that Colnago sponsored the team. Cannondale is our sponsor.) It appears that Competitive Cyclist no longer carries Colnago either.

As far as wheels are concerned, Campy makes plenty of clinchers that are $700 or less. I got my Eurus tubulars for $750 two years ago. Didn't have a need for them, but they were cheap enough that I wanted them.

A set of Campy Neutrons might be what you are looking for. They are low profile clinchers with moderate aero spokes (i.e., nothing like the spokes on my Eurus wheels) and Maestro has them for $525 before shipping. Not the lightest wheel, but a decent all around wheel.

I have ridden the past 25+ years on tubulars for all of my road riding, with the exception of the bike I keep at my in-laws in Florida that was built on the cheap with Campy Khamsin clinchers for $180. I cannot remember the last time I had a flat on my tubulars (knock on wood), but I also change the tires at around 2,500 miles. The way I address a flat is to carry a spare tubular with me. I usually put it and 2 CO2 cartridges in my middle pocket. When I get a flat, I rip the old tubular off, put the new one on, inflate it, and stick the old one back in my pocket. Then, I handle corners rather gingerly until I get home and have the chance to properly glue the new tire on.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2010)

fabsroman said:


> A set of Campy Neutrons might be what you are looking for. They are low profile clinchers with moderate aero spokes (i.e., nothing like the spokes on my Eurus wheels) and Maestro has them for $525 before shipping. Not the lightest wheel, but a decent all around wheel.


I've been looking at the Neutrons/Neutron Ultra's. Are you familiar with the difference off the top of your head?



fabsroman said:


> I have ridden the past 25+ years on tubulars for all of my road riding, with the exception of the bike I keep at my in-laws in Florida that was built on the cheap with Campy Khamsin clinchers for $180. I cannot remember the last time I had a flat on my tubulars (knock on wood), but I also change the tires at around 2,500 miles. The way I address a flat is to carry a spare tubular with me. I usually put it and 2 CO2 cartridges in my middle pocket. When I get a flat, I rip the old tubular off, put the new one on, inflate it, and stick the old one back in my pocket. Then, I handle corners rather gingerly until I get home and have the chance to properly glue the new tire on.


I usually deal with a couple flats per month, was my frame of reference when asking how you deal with them running tubulars. Not plausable for me to consider a handful of flats in 25 years of riding.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

billium said:


> I've been looking at the Neutrons/Neutron Ultra's. Are you familiar with the difference off the top of your head?
> 
> 
> 
> I usually deal with a couple flats per month, was my frame of reference when asking how you deal with them running tubulars. Not plausable for me to consider a handful of flats in 25 years of riding.


The difference is the hub/weight. The Ultras have a carbon hub body and weigh 80 grams less than the standard Neutrons.

The last time I had to deal with a flat on my road bike was in Florida on the Khamsins two years ago. I am guessing that a cement truck had lost a "little bit" of cement on the shoulder and it had tried, forming a mini set of Pyrennes with really sharp points. Florida is pancake flat and back then I was in shape and going 25+ mph. There was a crub to the right of me and a car to my left, so over it I went. I didn't get a single flat, but two flats and I only had a single tube on me and no patch repair kit. It was also 20 miles from home just short of my turn around point. I called my wife and she and my brother in-law came to pick me up. The next flat after that was on my MTB with clinchers while towing the kids in a trailer on a little black path by the house.

I have had 2 slow leaks on my tubulars over the past 2 years, but put some slime in them and they have been fine until they hit the point that I thought the tread was pretty worn and I replaced them.

Tubulars aren't for everybody, and I surely am not trying to convince you to go that route. I am only trying to convince you to go with Campy. LOL


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2010)

fabsroman said:


> The difference is the hub/weight. The Ultras have a carbon hub body and weigh 80 grams less than the standard Neutrons.


Thanks. For the $ difference vs weight savings, unless the hub quality of the Ultra's are significantly better, standard Neutrons are the better value.



fabsroman said:


> Tubulars aren't for everybody, and I surely am not trying to convince you to go that route. I am only trying to convince you to go with Campy. LOL


No, I don't see ever going that route. Part of the issue is that I ride solo the majority of the time, ride secondary roads with no shoulder that can be fairly busy. Hug the right side where all the debris collects. 

Thanks for your views/experience/resources.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

billium said:


> I've been looking at the Neutrons/Neutron Ultra's. Are you familiar with the difference off the top of your head?
> 
> 
> 
> I usually deal with a couple flats per month, was my frame of reference when asking how you deal with them running tubulars. Not plausable for me to consider a handful of flats in 25 years of riding.


A couple flats a month?
If they are the snakbites, you should try out the tubulars.
If not, stick with the clinchers......


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

cpark said:


> A couple flats a month?
> If they are the snakbites, you should try out the tubulars.
> If not, stick with the clinchers......


That is what I got in Florida. Two pinch flats on those clinchers and I was pissed. Normally, I could have ridden right over that cement without much worry on my tubulars, but that wasn't the case that day. We drove down for Christmas in the truck so I threw the Eurus tubulars in the back just in case I got the chance to ride. The weather was terrible the entire week we were down there, so I got screwed. Probably would have had nice weather if I had left the tubulars at home. LOL


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

billium said:


> Thanks. For the $ difference vs weight savings, unless the hub quality of the Ultra's are significantly better, standard Neutrons are the better value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome. Always happy to help out and try to convince somebody to go to Campy.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

cpark said:


> A couple flats a month?
> If they are the snakbites, you should try out the tubulars.
> If not, stick with the clinchers......


Or, try the new tubeless system. A friend who used to live in CO swear by it, although using "tire goop" is necessary. Campy actually has several models that are tubeless-compatible (they call it "two-way"), starting from the Vento up to the Eurus and Shamal. The Vento for sure can be had for cheap from a UK or European source. 

I have been riding a set of Neutrons for a while (not Ultra), and they are really a great wheelset. Great spinning feel, very confident, and comfortable, too. 

To compare, the Khamsin is very confident, nice spinning feel but heavy and a bit harsh. For the price though, they make a great bad weather / winter rider. I have had them for years and probably about 5k on them, and never had to true them. 

I do not know why Campy wheels are not very common in the US. I think they are a very good deal, and much more reliable than Mavic.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

orange_julius said:


> Or, try the new tubeless system. A friend who used to live in CO swear by it, although using "tire goop" is necessary. Campy actually has several models that are tubeless-compatible (they call it "two-way"), starting from the Vento up to the Eurus and Shamal. The Vento for sure can be had for cheap from a UK or European source.
> 
> I have been riding a set of Neutrons for a while (not Ultra), and they are really a great wheelset. Great spinning feel, very confident, and comfortable, too.
> 
> ...


Yep, my Eurus wheels have been bullet proof and I used them to ride/race on a course with gravel on it. They are also very comfortable. The Khamsins haven't really been that fun for me, but in all due respect I haven't ridden on them very much since they are in Florida and we only go down there for one to two weeks out of the year.

The Two Way fit system allows a person to go tubeless or to use tubes. That is why they are called Two Way fit.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2010)

orange_julius said:


> Or, try the new tubeless system. A friend who used to live in CO swear by it, although using "tire goop" is necessary. Campy actually has several models that are tubeless-compatible (they call it "two-way"), starting from the Vento up to the Eurus and Shamal. The Vento for sure can be had for cheap from a UK or European source.
> 
> I have been riding a set of Neutrons for a while (not Ultra), and they are really a great wheelset. Great spinning feel, very confident, and comfortable, too.
> 
> ...


OJ:

Not sure if going to go with Campy built wheels at this point, but if I do, am leaning towards the Neutrons (not Ultra's). Any issues with staying true? Any particular issues you've had more than a couple times? 

I've ridden Ksyrium's for years. Staying true has been an issue with all of them, two sets (old version of Elites and SSC SL's) had to be taken apart and re-built with locktite. I won't be buying Mavics for this frame. 

Thanks.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

billium said:


> OJ:
> 
> Not sure if going to go with Campy built wheels at this point, but if I do, am leaning towards the Neutrons (not Ultra's). Any issues with staying true? Any particular issues you've had more than a couple times?
> 
> ...


Billium, no issues with the Neutrons at all, other than that it's hard to mount certain *new* tires on them (Michelins included). I bring them in to my LBS for truing + tension adjustment about once a year (let's say 3k miles), and when I ask them how the wheels are they always say there is only little tension adjustment needed. 

Personally I never liked Ksyriums. They are harsh and the durability doesn't seem that great. I never owned them, though. I'll take a DT Swiss or Campag wheelset rather than a Mavic, for the same price. 

As I said in another thread, I am waiting for a set of 2-way Shamals to arrive (maybe today!), because I am curious about tubeless and I like the stiffer G3 spoking pattern (in the rear) for certain rides. 

I also used to have a DT Swiss 1450, which is 30% more expensive than the Neutron I think, and the Neutron compares very favorably. The DT Swiss 1450 feels a little more aero, and the front is a little more stable in crosswinds (I laced mine 2x instead of radial). But the Neutron is a better value for sure, given the minor difference.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

fabsroman said:


> Yep, my Eurus wheels have been bullet proof and I used them to ride/race on a course with gravel on it. They are also very comfortable. The Khamsins haven't really been that fun for me, but in all due respect I haven't ridden on them very much since they are in Florida and we only go down there for one to two weeks out of the year.
> 
> The Two Way fit system allows a person to go tubeless or to use tubes. That is why they are called Two Way fit.


Good to hear that your Eurus has been reliable! 

The Khamsins are really reliable, rolls nicely, but they are quite harsh. There was a guy on this forum who was praising them, after using them in the full-length Paris-Roubaix sportive. He must have *** made of cast iron!! The Khamsins are a great deal for the price, though. I recommend them in place of Mavic's low-end and unreliable wheels.


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## ACC (Apr 27, 2009)

The only 'crisis' would be not putting campy on your new Colnago. 

I've been riding Campy C-Record for over 20 years and everything functions flawlessly. I turned 50 last August (which wil mean 51 in two more days - 26th !), and have been toying with the idea of an upgrades. Well, my first choice was a new Colnago C-50 which I could get at cost (great deal), but with a son in college and another close behind I just could justify it. I was able to purchase a pristine C-40 which has had two previous owners that I know. The bike was rearly used, and never abused so I bought it at a very fair price. I decided on Campy Record 10 speed for the component group which just came this week! I would never consider anything other than Campy on a high end bike, espeially an Italian cycle. No real techincal reasoning,other than I love Campagnolo.

Take the leap, you'll never look back with any regrets. Good luck!


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## Wicked2006 (Jul 9, 2005)

Go Campy man!


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## Wicked2006 (Jul 9, 2005)

Please put campy on that Colnago. You will not regret you did. 

I've been riding with Campy Chorus 10 speed for awhile now. I love all Campy stuff. I have Campy Proton wheels and I hammer them. Campy stopped making them though. I have over 3,000 miles on them. They take a beaten and stay true. Best set of wheels I've ever owned. 

Jump in and never look back! Campy makes great stuff.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

*Impression of Campagnolo Chorus 11 speed after*

a few hundred miles. Again, this is my first experience with Campag, having ridden Shimano for nearly 30 years, Dura Ace for more than 10. Both road bikes (minus the new Colnago) are equipped with Dura Ace 9 speed:

*Campag pros*:

_Ergonomic hoods_: I've read several accounts of Campag's ergo hoods being a big deal, chalked it up to marketing hype. How much difference, really, could some slanted/twisted hoods make in real life? Turns out, quite a bit, actually. I typically ride Dura Ace with hands flat over the hoods, wrists/palms facing the ground. These Campag hoods really are what they're cracked up to be.........very comfortable, natural hand/wrist position while riding with crotch of thumb/index finger grasping hoods. 
Italians: 1, Japanese: 0

_Esthetics_: This is a personal thing and to be fair, I'm comparing a new component group to one that's been around for years. So although I do much prefer the Campag in this arena, I award no points to them as it's an unfair comparison.

_11 speed vs. 9 speed_: Since I still remember 6 speed friction down tube shifters, I've always thought 9 speed was more than adequate, 10 speed was an indugence and 11 speed was just bragging rights in the Shimano vs. Campag marketing war. However, both my Shimano and Campag cassettes are 12/25. I didn't anticipate appreciating those 2 extra cogs right in the sweet spot of the Campag cassette, but I do. The more I ride, the more I like.
Italians: 2, Japanese: 0.

_Thumb lever from the hoods_: The Campag thumb lever was a concern, turns out to be a bigger deal in theory than reality. Actually, I prefer the thumb levers when I'm riding on the hoods (which is most of the time).
Italians: 3, Japanese: 0.

_Vanity factor_: I know several Shimano guys who, like me, have coveted Campag for years but for whatever reason have never tried it. I only know two Campag guys, and neither of them have coveted my Dura Ace, ever. 
Italians: 1,003, Japanse: 0.

*Campag cons*:

_Cost_: I've always thought Campag was over priced and this, more than anything, kept me from trying it. However, benefiting from current exchange rates and internet options via Ribble/Wiggle/ProBikeKit/Slane/et al, the cost of 11 speed Chorus was actually significantly less than current version of Dura Ace 10 speed, magnified even more so if you spec a carbon DA crankset. I'm not awarding/removing points in this environment but do attribute the current "value" of Chorus as a simple anomily and would guess the reality will swing back to Campag being the pricier option down the road.

_Proprietary chain/no master link/$9 for a single chain pin/specialized "peening tool"_: Are you kidding me? Funny (no, not ha ha funny, the other funny) none of you (evidently filthy rich) Campag guys ever happened to mentioned this little doozy anywhere in this thread. Jesus, Joseph and Mary, the folks in the Campag factories can all retire and live comfortably into old age with the royalties off this one. If they're going to rip my lips off, I would at least appreciate the joke it they'd slap Vito Corleone's mug on the box.
Since both Shimano and new comer SRAM feel no need to extort anyone through this monopoly, I subtract points from Campag's score rather than add points to Shimano's. 
Italians: -8,997, Japanese: 0

_Brakes_: Dura Ace wins hands down on this one.
Italians: -8.997, Japanese: 1

_Thumb lever from the drops_: I haven't found the right technique to deal with shifting the thumb lever from the drops. I much prefer the second lever of Shimano.
Ilatians: -8,997, Japanese: 2

_Competent mechanics............in Iowa_: I can roll up to nearly any bike shop and find a competent Shimano mechanic. Not so much Campagnolo. Ditto shop tools. And I dare you to find any shop in Iowa stocking Campag 11 speed chain pins. Did I mention $9.00 a pop? How 'bout that in additon to a new Chorus equipped Colnago, I'm the proud owner of two Park Tool chain tools, one to remove/insert those $9 pins and one to "mash" the little booger with. Funny I've ridden for a long time without the need for any chain tool. let alone two. 
Italians: -8,997, Japanese: 10,002.


Overall, I really do like the Chorus setup and am glad I bought it.:thumbsup: 
Shifting quality/speed are on par with Dura Ace, the unexpected reality of the much touted hood ergonomics and the extra two cogs giving an effective straight block in the sweet part of the cassette are both surprising to me, the thumb shifter from the drops is something I'll adjust to and isn't that big a deal.

* But this &%$#@?! chain thing.......................*:mad2:


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Ha ha ha .... this really made me laugh. Last night I was having beer with a friend while he watched me finish installing a Record11 groupset. He was totally amazed by the chain installation procedure, and he marveled at the Campag special chain tool with the little guillotine and peening device. Good thing I bought it off a UK vendor and saved myself some money.

I'm glad that you like Chorus11. If you look at the small survey that I did on this forum, a vast majority of readers of this forum (the Campag forum) install and maintain their stuff themselves. 

My friend joked, "What if they move to 12 speed and have yet another type of chain tool and chain system??"


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

So I would agree with most of this - with one exception - you really don't take chains off anymore. This goes for Shimano and SRAM - you're really not supposed to. Get a chain cleaner tool, shop rag, whatever, but you keep the chain on. Yes it's easier to break and then reinstall the shimano and SRAM chain, and cheaper, but it is no more recommended than campy. Chains are so thin now it is recommended you just keep them on - no more drive train wash - just wash the cassette and I do that in the basement sink. You can also get a record chain for like $35 and then replace the chain every few thousand miles. 

The chain tool was a horrible extra expense, but now park has one for a 1/3 the price.

The brakes, though, I love the modulation of campy brakes - love it. Otherwise you were spot on in your review - at least with my opinion.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

orange_julius said:


> He was totally amazed by the chain installation procedure, and he marveled at the Campag special chain tool with the little guillotine and peening device. Good thing I bought it off a UK vendor and saved myself some money.


I'd be amused by your chain tool as well, until I had to buy one (OK, two, but I also use a $25 domestic cork screw instead of Campag's $180 version).



orange_julius said:


> I'm glad that you like Chorus11. If you look at the small survey that I did on this forum, a vast majority of readers of this forum (the Campag forum) install and maintain their stuff themselves.


I've got a terrific LBS, head mechanic is Cat 2 and rides Campag. He's anal to the point that he made sure all the "Campagnolo" lettering faces out/lines up on all the cable housings/Vitorria labels fall equal distance between the "Campagnolo" and 'Eurus" stickers on the wheels, etc. Total labor cost to build the bike from scratch was under $130.00. He and the owner take terrific care of me.



orange_julius said:


> My friend joked, "What if they move to 12 speed and have yet another type of chain tool and chain system??"



You need to get a different friend.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

ronderman said:


> So I would agree with most of this - with one exception - you really don't take chains off anymore. This goes for Shimano and SRAM - you're really not supposed to. Get a chain cleaner tool, shop rag, whatever, but you keep the chain on. Yes it's easier to break and then reinstall the shimano and SRAM chain, and cheaper, but it is no more recommended than campy. Chains are so thin now it is recommended you just keep them on - no more drive train wash - just wash the cassette and I do that in the basement sink. You can also get a record chain for like $35 and then replace the chain every few thousand miles.
> 
> The chain tool was a horrible extra expense, but now park has one for a 1/3 the price.
> 
> The brakes, though, I love the modulation of campy brakes - love it. Otherwise you were spot on in your review - at least with my opinion.


Ronder;

While I have Pedro's on bike chain cleaning gizmo, I haven't used it since I began using Chain-l to lube my chain. It nearly requires you to remove the chain. 

Yeah, I did buy Park's chain tools (requires 2 where Campag's version does it all with 1 - at more than twice the cost).

I agree with your sentiment about brake modulation, Chorus has a much better "feel", Shimano simply has better stopping power from the hoods.

The other tidbit I left out of my review...............the Cat 2 mechanic who took care of the build was most amused when he came outside to see me letting all the air from the front tire so I could remove the front wheel. "Guess I forgot to tell you about the second pivot point on the levers. huh?" Uhhhh, yeah.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

billium said:


> Ronder;
> 
> While I have Pedro's on bike chain cleaning gizmo, I haven't used it since I began using Chain-l to lube my chain. It nearly requires you to remove the chain.
> 
> ...


Great that you have a mechanic who takes care of you, that makes patronage more than worthwhile. This person gets points for optimizing vanity (aligning the logos, etc). That's really sign of somebody who cares about quality of service. 

Regarding brakes, I actually just started using Mavic brakes on my Record11 bike and I have to say I like it a lot. The stopping power is a little better than the older Record/Chorus10 brakes, and is greater than the newer Record11 brakes that I have tried. 

For the same price as the Chorus11 but the same weight as Record11, I think the Mavic brakes are a very good deal. But they come with very short brake bolts, so if either your fork or stay bridge is especially chunky, this may be a problem.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

You've blown the chain thing totally out of proportion. If that expensive Chain-L lube can't be applied without removing the chain, then it's crap. It shouldn't be very long before the KMC master link is available and that should be a far better choice than rejoining the chain with more replacement pins. If you read the instructions, three of those pins is the maximum amount. They are not intended to be used for repeated removals.

Other 10 speed master links will work, but they don't fit perfectly. I've used a KMC link made for the Campy 10 chain and got by with it.

As for the brakes, the idea is to purposely require more force to operate, so you won't lock up a tire accidentally. The rear brake intentionally has a lower force than the front since rear brakes don't require the force of a front brake. Either tire can still be locked up if you brake hard enough and that's too much force.

Shifting the thumb button from the hooks is simple. All you do is move your hand enough to reach between under the bar to the button.

Working on Campy equipped bikes is not much different than SRAM or Shimano. The only thing I can think of that's significant is the proper FD adjustment. The FD can be setup to use 3 or 4 clicks of the finger lever. Both work, but the 3-click setup is what Campy intends. I told you earlier that if you rely on shop mechanics with marginal skills, then Campy might be a problem. Those of us who do all of our own work don't have that problem.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

billium said:


> I'd be amused by your chain tool as well, until I had to buy one (OK, two, but I also use a $25 domestic cork screw instead of Campag's $180 version).


My Lord. $25 for a corkscrew. I use a drywall screw, a phillips head screwdriver, and a pair of pliers to open wine bottles. Must be nice to have $25 to drop on a corkscrew. LOL

By the way, I am with the rest of the guys on here. I lube my chain on the bike after every 2 or 3 rides, maybe 5 if I am really busy/lazy. I take the chain off the bike once a year during the off season to drop it in an ultrasonic cleaner and then I put it back on. However, I am still using Campy Record 10, so I don't have to spring for the 2 Park chain tools just yet. Maybe in 2011 though.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2010)

C-40 said:


> You've blown the chain thing totally out of proportion. If that expensive Chain-L lube can't be applied without removing the chain, then it's crap. It shouldn't be very long before the KMC master link is available and that should be a far better choice than rejoining the chain with more replacement pins. If you read the instructions, three of those pins is the maximum amount. They are not intended to be used for repeated removals.
> 
> Other 10 speed master links will work, but they don't fit perfectly. I've used a KMC link made for the Campy 10 chain and got by with it.
> 
> ...



C-40:

The post was about my initial impressions coming from a non-Campag, non-mechanic background.

Everything it contained is subjective. Feel free to disagree with all of it.......oh, wait.

I did and do agree with ronderman's comment regarding lever modulation/feel vs Dura Ace. Having never locked up a wheel while braking, the engineering design/purpose you cite is lost on me.

Otherwise, I stand by each of my comments, especially the chain pin/proprietary chain tool as a needlessly complex/expensive irritation to an otherwise well thought out and executed component group.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2010)

fabsroman said:


> $25 for a corkscrew. I use a drywall screw, a phillips head screwdriver, and a pair of pliers to open wine bottles. Must be nice to have $25 to drop on a corkscrew.


Kills the romance when my wife has to pick sheetrock debris out of her glass........or her teeth. In that context, $25 is cheap! 



fabsroman said:


> By the way, I am with the rest of the guys on here. I lube my chain on the bike after every 2 or 3 rides, maybe 5 if I am really busy/lazy. I take the chain off the bike once a year during the off season to drop it in an ultrasonic cleaner and then I put it back on.


I've always prefered removing the chain before cleaning the drivetrain. Until an 11 speed quick link materializes, little choice but to clean on the bike as I don't like the 10 speed quick link option.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

But billium! It's Italian!  

Very nice thread. Given me a couple of good chucles too.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

billium said:


> I did and do agree with ronderman's comment regarding lever modulation/feel vs Dura Ace. Having never locked up a wheel while braking, the engineering design/purpose you cite is lost on me.


Here is one thing I can also tell you - I am one these guys that lives/works part time in NYC and then part time in CT. So I have two bikes - my NYC bike has ultegra and my CT has campy. I should switch it, but I plan on selling the ultegra and going campy on both. My point though, you brake all the time in the city - cars, pedestrians - they do crazy SH!T. I lock my brakes up all the time and it drives me nuts - I doubly miss the the campy brakes given the stuff I put up with, most people wont need it, it's like anti-lock brakes, but when you need 'em - it's a HUGE difference.

Welcome to the club - I like to say I've evolved.


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## blackjack (Sep 7, 2010)

Pirx said:


> All I can say is that with those old single-pivot brakes, I could easily flip the bike over from the hoods if I wanted to. I reallly, _really_ don't need brakes that are any stronger than that. The single pivot in the rear is a complete red herring anyway. *Any rear brake I have ever seen you have to be careful not to lock the wheel, and that is true for the newest Campy single-pivot rear brakes as well. Why anybody would want stronger braking than that in the rear is beyond me. *
> In summary, and IMHO, if it's functionality you need, rather than bragging rights, then Campy brakes work perfectly. That's all that matters to me.



Yeah, that's very true.

If anyone wants crazy braking power, the Mavic SSC's are the way to go as well as being less common.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

blackjack said:


> Yeah, that's very true.
> 
> If anyone wants crazy braking power, the Mavic SSC's are the way to go as well as being less common.


I've found that the Camillo Negative G's provide an insane amount of braking power too. Still don't know if I prefer them over my 2008 Campy Record brakes though.


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## blackjack (Sep 7, 2010)

fabsroman said:


> I've found that the Camillo Negative G's provide an insane amount of braking power too. Still don't know if I prefer them over my 2008 Campy Record brakes though.


Yeah, I have 2001 Centaur brakes as well as skeleton Chorus with campy pads. More than sufficient.


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