# Stainless Steel frame choice?



## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

I'm thinking about a new frame and have just started researching SS. I'm thinking seamless, so that leaves me with Xcr or 931. I've heard that the rolled tubes are not very round, not that it makes much difference.

I'm thinking I would just go with Columbus and have three brands on my short list.

Anderson has a nice lugged frame and I love lugs.

Independent Fab, I have always wanted one. It is tig welded.

Pegoretti, who doesn't want a work of art. Also tig welded, but its Italian.

Maybe throw in Tommasini. I have had a Sintesi and a Carbo Light.

I have to sell some stuff to buy a new frame so I have some to think about it. I also like fillet brazed so I'm sure there are other choices. Need help, too many choices.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

I like carbon but, if Pegoretti is on your list for anything then that's the direction I would go in. He won't be making bikes forever and he is very skilled. Waterford is another. Heck, any builder on your list would do a credible job. Other than rust protection, I'm not sure what stainless will provide that steel or Ti won't. I doubt that I will ever go back to metal after owning a good carbon bike. If I do, it will probably be aluminum.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Also check out Firefly, Carl Strong, Dave Kirk, Cyfac and Casati.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

I did fall in love with a Casati Championissmo at Bicycle Johns in Burbank. I have also looked at Strong and I do like Kirk's work. I think I looked at Waterfords also. Way too many good bikes.


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

You don't mention price. I have read good things about Ellis but the stainless frame is expensive.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

Thanks Skepticman, that Casati Inox looks great. I like the cable stops on the head tube and the hidden cables is an extra bonus. I have now placed it above the IF.

I saw a few in stock Pegoretti's at $4300. That is about as high as I will go. I have found a few frames in the low 3000's.


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## 993rs (Feb 15, 2006)

Scott Quiring, he'll take care of you.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Legend Ventoux Legend factory


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## ridingred (Aug 25, 2010)

Kelly Bedford at kbedfordcustoms.com


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

If I had the $, I'd go for the BB30 Cinelli XCr

Cinelli XCr 2012 Frameset Road Bikes/Bicycles


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Rolled tubes are just as round as seamless tubes. Realize too that rolled tubes were also lugged, you can't lug a tube that isn't round.

Generally seamless is better because it's stronger due to the lack of the weld which could fail, but it cost more, however Tange made a superior seamed tubeset called Infinity that rivaled many high end seamless tubesets, and the quality of the welding Tange did never resulted in a seam or weld failure, plus they were able to make the weld completely disappear so you wouldn't know it was there under the paint...assuming whoever painted it did a decent job. I did see one Tange Infinity that the bicycle manufacture painted it too thin on underside of the down tube and you could see a lighter line running down the length of the tube, but you couldn't feel it and you couldn't see it unless you looked.

So if you like the Soma or the Velo Orange steel bikes using the Tange Infinity don't be scared of it. Their using that tubeset because it cost less but it's very strong. But the cost factor for seamless lugged steel bikes cost more and the average person who wants lugged may not want to spend another $500 to get seamless...and they wouldn't know the difference anyway!!


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

I was told that when 953 is placed in a lathe its not as round as Xcr.

I wonder if 953 is butted before its rolled and welded?



froze said:


> Rolled tubes are just as round as seamless tubes. Realize too that rolled tubes were also lugged, you can't lug a tube that isn't round.
> 
> Generally seamless is better because it's stronger due to the lack of the weld which could fail, but it cost more, however Tange made a superior seamed tubeset called Infinity that rivaled many high end seamless tubesets, and the quality of the welding Tange did never resulted in a seam or weld failure, plus they were able to make the weld completely disappear so you wouldn't know it was there under the paint...assuming whoever painted it did a decent job. I did see one Tange Infinity that the bicycle manufacture painted it too thin on underside of the down tube and you could see a lighter line running down the length of the tube, but you couldn't feel it and you couldn't see it unless you looked.
> 
> So if you like the Soma or the Velo Orange steel bikes using the Tange Infinity don't be scared of it. Their using that tubeset because it cost less but it's very strong. But the cost factor for seamless lugged steel bikes cost more and the average person who wants lugged may not want to spend another $500 to get seamless...and they wouldn't know the difference anyway!!


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

farva said:


> If I had the $, I'd go for the BB30 Cinelli XCr
> 
> Cinelli XCr 2012 Frameset Road Bikes/Bicycles


At Cinelli.IT they show the cable stops on the head tube and a mostly painted frame. All the other web site show the frame polished and down tube bosses. At 3.15 pounds its light.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Hey, while you are listing choices, don't forget Waterford.

I like Anderson's work. His Friday Night Lights posts make me swoon.


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

Fondriest and Chris King both have really zooty stainless frames. You might as well get something different. Both are handmade and you'd have either a USA or Italian frame - I'd go with the Fondriest with Record 11 and handbuilt wheels with Record hubs from Sugar Wheelworks in Portland.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

refund!? said:


> Fondriest and Chris King both have really zooty stainless frames. You might as well get something different. Both are handmade and you'd have either a USA or Italian frame - I'd go with the Fondriest with Record 11 and handbuilt wheels with Record hubs from Sugar Wheelworks in Portland.


Isn't Fondriest now Chinese?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

jtompilot said:


> I was told that when 953 is placed in a lathe its not as round as Xcr.
> 
> I wonder if 953 is butted before its rolled and welded?


Not sure in what order they do make the tube set, I would think it's rolled and welded first then butted but I could be wrong. Regardless of which way it's done it is just as round, these are done on precision machines, not some machine made in the early 1900's! Like I said, a tube has to perfectly round to fit into a lug, and lugs are used on both seam and seamless tube sets. Whoever told you that seamed tubes are not round is out to lunch.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

Dave Wages @ Ellis cycle
Makes a very nice S?S bike!

Good guy as well


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Since you've already decided on stainless steel as a material -- a decision which some would argue is still premature -- I would suggest now _not_ worrying about the differences between Xcr & 931 but instead concentrate on which framebuilder you want to have make your bike. Let Mr. Wages or Mr. Pegoretti et al worry about Xcr vs 931 so they can build you the best bike possible. Or, better yet, develop a relationship with Mr. Wages or Mr. Pegoretti et al so they can explain to you why they would choose Xcr vs 931 for the bike they'd build for you.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

Bob Ross said:


> Since you've already decided on stainless steel as a material -- a decision which some would argue is still premature -- I would suggest now _not_ worrying about the differences between Xcr & 931 but instead concentrate on which framebuilder you want to have make your bike. Let Mr. Wages or Mr. Pegoretti et al worry about Xcr vs 931 so they can build you the best bike possible. Or, better yet, develop a relationship with Mr. Wages or Mr. Pegoretti et al so they can explain to you why they would choose Xcr vs 931 for the bike they'd build for you.


I'd take a Tommasini X-Fire.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

Bob Ross said:


> Since you've already decided on stainless steel as a material -- a decision which some would argue is still premature -- I would suggest now _not_ worrying about the differences between Xcr & 931 but instead concentrate on which framebuilder you want to have make your bike. Let Mr. Wages or Mr. Pegoretti et al worry about Xcr vs 931 so they can build you the best bike possible. Or, better yet, develop a relationship with Mr. Wages or Mr. Pegoretti et al so they can explain to you why they would choose Xcr vs 931 for the bike they'd build for you.


This is very good advice!


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

For the record, the 953 seam is so homogenous the tubes are virtually seamless. Reynolds subjected 953 round tubes of various diameters and wall thickness to "flattening" tests (from round to oval of less than 70% of the original diameter) without any sign of cracking along the tube.

Here is a table comparing physical characteristics of 953, 931, XCr, and KVA MS2. They all have more than adequate yield strength, UTS, and elongation to build a frame that will last a lifetime. At this year's NAHBS in Sacramento, several builders experienced with 953 showed new frames built using MS2. Among them were Dave Anderson, Dave Wages, and Sam Whittingham.


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## mriddle (Nov 16, 2005)

If you go with the Casati call Racescene in the UK. I live in the US and ordered a custom Laser (Zero HTS) from them last year and saved a bunch over all the US dealers. The frame took about 2 months, Casati is easy to work with, will paint any color. Good luck.


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## jtompilot (Mar 31, 2002)

Thanks for all the replies.

I've talked to several dealers. Bicycle Johns in Burbank carries Pegoretti, Cinelli, and Casati. 

International Pro Bike bike shop deals Casati and Tommasini. I'm going to visit them next week.

Interesting that Scott Quiring sells his Xcr frame for $1800 and most other stainless frames are mid $3000 and up.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Cinelli. If you go to Bicycle John's, ask Don why Cinelli is really the most obvious choice over other stainless frame builders.

One main reason: Columbus owns Cinelli.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

jtompilot said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> I've talked to several dealers. Bicycle Johns in Burbank carries Pegoretti, Cinelli, and Casati.
> 
> ...


That's a very interesting price point. His website doesn't list a price for this (seems he's too busy building bikes, not a bad thing), but his blog shows he's build stainless road and MTB frames. 

However, if I had the $$ I'd go with a custom Cyfac stainless frame. I have a Zona frame that's been a real surprise and head-turner, will be nice to have a stainless frame, too. That, or a top-end carbon frame with EPS/Di2 compatible mounts!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

dd74 said:


> Cinelli. If you go to Bicycle John's, ask Don why Cinelli is really the most obvious choice over other stainless frame builders.
> 
> One main reason: Columbus owns Cinelli.


Nice looking, looks like chrome, but you would think if Columbus owns Cinelli they could make the stainless steel frame cheaper due to direct manufacture to builder discount. Kind of odd I can get the same stainless steel Columbus frame from a different bike builder for less!


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

The last time I checked (about a year ago), a compete set of 953 or XCr frame tubes cost about the same (~$600), so the materials premium for the tubing is basically the difference between a premium non-stainless tubeset and $600. If the frame is to be lugged, there will be a premium for stainless lugs, fork crown, BB shell, dropouts, and braze-ons over similar parts in mild steel.

The real difference is in the cost of working with stainless instead of non-stainless. Brazing stainless requires much more finesse in heat control, and in the aged condition stainless is very hard on tooling. If the frame is built with non-aged tubes, the material is easier to work with, but when the frame is aged after assembly there is a very real potential for the tubes to warp, knocking the frame out of alignment.

Bob Brown posted his progress while building his first 953 frame in October, 2006, on his blog HERE.

Also, in 2009, Dave Anderson posted some comments here on RBR about working with 953. I've searched here for his post, but can't find it. However, I did save it in an MS Word file at the time:



Dave Anderson said:


> This is an interesting thread. To answer your questions:
> 
> 1. ....no, 953 does not dent easily. Even though it can be very thin, it’s quite dent resistant, comparable or better than other materials, including other (thicker) high end steels. That is not to say that it will not dent if abused or crashed.
> 
> ...


The bottom line is that there's lots of extra effort put into building a stainless frame, and that plus the higher cost of the raw materials make the retail price a bit higher.

TIG-welded stainless frames, which can be every bit as durable and aesthetically pleasing if properly executed as lugged stainless frames, are often less expensive.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a number of builders who built their reputation for beautifully executed 953 frames are now building stainless frames using KVA MS2 tubing. These include Dave Wages, Dave Anderson, and Waterford. In talking to these guys at NAHBS in Sacramento early this year, their reasons for using KVA tubes included better availability, lower cost, and less wear and tear on tooling.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

I don't know much about them but the SS frames seem quite a bit more expensive than other steel frames. I'm not sure if the cost is all tubing or because its difficult to work with. Besides the obvious corrosion resistance, is there any advantage to the SS tube sets in terms of strength or ride quality?


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Original post is at link below. I never use the search on this site because it doesn't find short words. Any quoted phrase from the post makes this easy to find with Google.

953 questions - Page 2


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

DaveG said:


> I don't know much about them but the SS frames seem quite a bit more expensive than other steel frames. I'm not sure if the cost is all tubing or because its difficult to work with. Besides the obvious corrosion resistance, is there any advantage to the SS tube sets in terms of strength or ride quality?


The higher frame costs are due to both the higher costs of stainless tubes and other frame components _and_ the fact that the material is more difficult to work with. As the table in my first post in this thread illustrates, the stainless steels used for bicycle tubing are significantly stronger than moden non-stainless steels, and can therefore be drawn with thinner walls making the frames lighter. The ride quality of my 953 bike is very similar to my Paramount with 531 tubing and virtually identical geometry, but because the 953 bike is six pounds lighter than the Paramount, it accelerates faster and climbs better.



skepticman said:


> Original post is at link below. I never use the search on this site because it doesn't find short words. Any quoted phrase from the post makes this easy to find with Google.
> 
> 953 questions - Page 2


Great! Thanks for finding that thread.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Thanks. I have to believe most of that 6 pound difference is due to modern components. I doubt even your old Paramount frame and fork is a whole lot more than 6 lbs total. Did you have your SS frame painted or leave it naked?


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

DaveG said:


> Thanks. I have to believe most of that 6 pound difference is due to modern components. I doubt even your old Paramount frame and fork is a whole lot more than 6 lbs total. Did you have your SS frame painted or leave it naked?


The Paramount frame and fork weigh 6.8 pounds (no headset or BB). 

The stainless frame is naked, and it weighs 1650g (61cm c-t), and the 531 Paramount frame (same size and geo) weighs 2320g. That's about 1.5 lbs difference in frame weight.

There's no doubt that the modern wheels and 2007 Campy Record 10-s group weigh significantly less than the wheels and Nuovo Record triple group on the Paramount.

Photos of the Paramount and the Waterford are on Velospace at the "my bikes" link in my sig.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

froze said:


> Kind of odd I can get the same stainless steel Columbus frame from a different bike builder for less!


Well, for one it's _not_ the same stainless steel other builders spec for their frames. It's a larger diameter, lighter, stiffer steel that no U.S. builder I've spoken to seems able to acquire.

Secondly, one would think if the steel manufacturer understands best how their product is to be applied (engineered, welded, etc) to the frame manufacturer they also own, then it's probably a safe bet the end result is going to be very good, possibly even better than a builder who simply orders the tubes from a steel manufacturer.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

DaveG said:


> I don't know much about them but the SS frames seem quite a bit more expensive than other steel frames. I'm not sure if the cost is all tubing or because its difficult to work with. Besides the obvious corrosion resistance, is there any advantage to the SS tube sets in terms of strength or ride quality?


It's suppose to be stronger then even titanium, that about says it all right there. I don't know anyone who owns a SS frame bike yet, but supposedly they ride very well, but if the material is stiffer it would seem that it should ride stiffer, but geometry does play in those factors as well.


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## skepticman (Dec 25, 2005)

Firefly and Indy Fab both offer XCr MAX frames, which are larger diameter, stiffer and (assuming) lighter.

Firefly :: Stainless Road :: #001 | Firefly Bicycles
Independent Fabrication Blog: NAHBS 2012 :: Follow-up


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## josh pane (Dec 29, 2012)

Cinelli is very nice.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Salsa makes a "reasonably" priced stainless offering; see: Universal Cycles -- Salsa Vaya Travel Complete Bike


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

froze said:


> Salsa makes a "reasonably" priced stainless offering; see: Universal Cycles -- Salsa Vaya Travel Complete Bike


I called them a couple of months ago and asked whose stainless tubeset they are using for the Vaya. The guy I talked with wouldn't tell me, saying it was "proprietary."

I think it was a reasonable question to ask and was disappointed in his response.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Scooper said:


> I called them a couple of months ago and asked whose stainless tubeset they are using for the Vaya. The guy I talked with wouldn't tell me, saying it was "proprietary."
> 
> I think it was a reasonable question to ask and was disappointed in his response.


Supposedly it's KVA from what I read somewhere awhile back, but I'm not 100% certain.


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## tbb001 (Oct 1, 2007)

I absolutely love my Indy Fab SSR MAX. 
Great stiffness in the BB for climbing/sprinting, and it built up at 16lbs w/o really going crazy on the build for "lightness".


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

skepticman said:


> Firefly and Indy Fab both offer XCr MAX frames, which are larger diameter, stiffer and (assuming) lighter.
> 
> Firefly :: Stainless Road :: #001 | Firefly Bicycles
> Independent Fabrication Blog: NAHBS 2012 :: Follow-up


Correct. However, neither has been able to get the MAX tubing for quite a while. The last time I talked to Firefly or IF, they didn't expect the MAX tubing from Columbus for at least a year. Meanwhile, Columbus is next door to Cinelli and the wait time for a full custom XCR with MAX tubing from them is four months.

Also, the rear dropouts on the Cinelli XCR are more robust than other manufacturers. The head tube is (looks) reinforced as well, and if you have EPS or Di2, or need a custom fit, Cinelli doesn't charge extra.

Cinelli also offers with the frame that super light Columbus fork designed specifically for the XCR. The headset is also offered with the frame.

I think their prices went down by about $500, but don't quote me on that. 

In all, I believe the Cinelli XCR is priced quite competitively, given the above listed advantages.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

dd74 said:


> One main reason: Columbus owns Cinelli.



You would think they would be able to get a decent price on tubing and create an incredible frame for an incredible price......but they don't/won't. 


If you're willing to fork out $4k on a frame I can think of many many many better builders who will give you exactly what you want and tell you what you need. You can get any and everything customized all the way down to fancy paint, or partially painted since it's stainless. Just to throw out an additional name to the great names already tossed out (Anderson, IF, Firefly, etc.)....I'd add Engin. 

Quiring is pretty hard to beat though on price and you'll get a great frame. I recently went through this whole ordeal of deciding on SS vs normal steel.......and then which builder. In the end I decided on SS, and went with a smaller builder with a long wait. But I'll get everything I want, and for less than $3k.

Also, I'd be more than happy with KVA. Made in the US and used by many builders. Also, I think Acel (ex-Cannondale company) will come out with a line of SS tubing at some point.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

88 rex said:


> You would think they would be able to get a decent price on tubing and create an incredible frame for an incredible price......but they don't/won't.
> 
> 
> If you're willing to fork out $4k on a frame I can think of many many many better builders who will give you exactly what you want and tell you what you need. You can get any and everything customized all the way down to fancy paint, or partially painted since it's stainless. Just to throw out an additional name to the great names already tossed out (Anderson, IF, Firefly, etc.)....I'd add Engin.
> ...


If price is your concern, go with price. My concern is who's best able to utilize and culpable for the quality of their tubing. I don't mind the $$ premium, which with all things considered, isn't that much if this is a keeper frame.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

dd74 said:


> If price is your concern, go with price. My concern is who's best able to utilize and culpable for the quality of their tubing. I don't mind the $$ premium, which with all things considered, isn't that much if this is a keeper frame.


Price is always a concern. ALL of the tubing is quality tubing. KVA, 953, and XCR are all very capable tubesets. The premium you are paying is for the name and mark-ups. Just because the MAX tubing is larger, lighter, stiffer, and magical, doesn't mean it is the material everyone should be on. You go to a custom builder and tell them what you want, your riding style, goals, fit, etc and they will tell you what tubing will be best for your application. The Cinelli is a nice frame, don't get me wrong, but when someone steps back to see what they are getting for their $4500, the value is just not there in regards to what you can purchase via a reputable custom builder.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

dd74 said:


> If price is your concern, go with price. My concern is who's best able to utilize and culpable for the quality of their tubing. I don't mind the $$ premium, which with all things considered, isn't that much if this is a keeper frame.


.....


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

88 rex said:


> Price is always a concern. ALL of the tubing is quality tubing. KVA, 953, and XCR are all very capable tubesets. The premium you are paying is for the name and mark-ups. Just because the MAX tubing is larger, lighter, stiffer, and magical, doesn't mean it is the material everyone should be on. You go to a custom builder and tell them what you want, your riding style, goals, fit, etc and they will tell you what tubing will be best for your application. The Cinelli is a nice frame, don't get me wrong, but when someone steps back to see what they are getting for their $4500, the value is just not there in regards to what you can purchase via a reputable custom builder.


Um, who said the frame costs $4,500? I'd double check with whatever LBS you're dealing with, (as well as how close you are to that LBS) 'cause I was quoted a good amount less than that.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

dd74 said:


> Um, who said the frame costs $4,500? I'd double check with whatever LBS you're dealing with, (as well as how close you are to that LBS) 'cause I was quoted a good amount less than that.


Wrench Science, $4499
Outside Outfitter, $4600
CS West, $4146
Missoula Bike Source, $4600

cinelli-usa.com website:


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

The Cinelli-USA webmaster better learn how to spell Columbus.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Scooper said:


> Wrench Science, $4499
> Outside Outfitter, $4600
> CS West, $4146
> Missoula Bike Source, $4600
> ...


CS West is more like it. It would also help if the shop knows the Cinelli U.S. rep.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

dd74 said:


> CS West is more like it. It would also help if the shop knows the Cinelli U.S. rep.




$4100 or $4500, doesn't really matter at that price point. All the Cinelli rep can do is help lower the shops cost and hopefully lower the cost to the customer. The shop cost is going to be between $3k and $3200 to start with. Again, the price is all mark-up. 

At that particular pricepoint, and specifically for stainless steel.....why bother dealing with a shop, who has to deal with a rep, who has to deal with the parent company, when you can call the actual guy who will bulid your frame and discuss your needs/wants. A direct relationship with the individual who is about to breathe life into your frame seems far more appealing.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

88 rex said:


> $4100 or $4500, doesn't really matter at that price point. All the Cinelli rep can do is help lower the shops cost and hopefully lower the cost to the customer. The shop cost is going to be between $3k and $3200 to start with. Again, the price is all mark-up.
> 
> At that particular pricepoint, and specifically for stainless steel.....why bother dealing with a shop, who has to deal with a rep, who has to deal with the parent company, when you can call the actual guy who will bulid your frame and discuss your needs/wants. A direct relationship with the individual who is about to breathe life into your frame seems far more appealing.


I think I've pointed out "why" earlier in this thread.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Ritte Snob looks very nice:

The Stainless Snob | Ritte van Vlaanderen Bicycles


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

jtompilot said:


> I was told that when 953 is placed in a lathe its not as round as Xcr.
> 
> I wonder if 953 is butted before its rolled and welded?


I posed the question to Reynolds, and the answer is that 953 tubes are rolled and welded, then drawn with mandrel and die for butting. The fact that the tubes are drawn through dies after welding ensures the tubes' roundness, so I think whomever told you that 953 isn't as round as XCr is misinformed.

When I was deciding between 953 and XCr for my frame, the fact that 953 was seamed and XCr seamless was a consideration, but when Terry Bill of Reynolds explained the highly homogeneous welding process and subsequent ovalizing to 70% of original diameter tests and microscopic inspection showing no signs of cracks or fractures along the seam, it became a non-issue for me. The significantly higher strength of 953 and its resistance to denting swayed my decision to use 953.

In Reynolds' response to my inquiry about the butting process, Keith Noronha said the butting process for 953 required developing higher strength mandrels and cold-drawing dies, and a new lubrication system for the cold-draw operation because the tubes are thinner wall, stainless and much harder to start with than non-stainless weaker alloys, affecting the amount of energy needed to cold-draw the tubes.

YMMV.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

FTR said:


> Ritte Snob looks very nice:
> 
> The Stainless Snob | Ritte van Vlaanderen Bicycles


Yes. One of the Ritte employees discussed his Snob in THIS POST. They use KVA MS2 tubes.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

OT - Scooper, who's photo is that in your Avatar? I've always been curious.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

dd74 said:


> OT - Scooper, who's photo is that in your Avatar? I've always been curious.


It's moi, forty years ago at age 30. Those were the big hair years.


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## dd74 (Aug 2, 2007)

Scooper said:


> It's moi, forty years ago at age 30. Those were the big hair years.


Ha! I momentarily have thought that was Jim Morrison.

By the way, I PM'd you.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

dd74 said:


> Ha! I momentarily have thought that was Jim Morrison.


I'm flattered by that. :blush2:



dd74 said:


> By the way, I PM'd you.


Got it, and replied.


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