# cup and cone versus sealed cartridge?



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Shimano is still using cup and cone design so it has to be pretty good right?
Anyway, I'm curious as to the pros and cons of cup-and-cone versus sealed cartridge. Would like to hear some thoughts on this.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

cup & cone hubs if properly maintained will pretty much last forever. bonus: new bearings are DIRT cheap. added bonus: no jack*ss will tell you to buy ceramic bearings for them. 

cartridge bearing hubs can be lighter, and you'll find them in pretty much any drilling you want. downside: certain idiots will tell you you'll go faster w/ ceramic bearings.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I have a few sets of both (oldest - Campagnolo track hubs with loose ball - early '70s vintage). Both types are fine and I have no preference between the two.

Loose ball type - easily re-built or re-lubed using cone wrenches. The current Shimano DuraAce 7900 don't need wrenches. Will last forever IF properly adjusted (with a gnat's whisker of play). If adjusted too tight the cones and cups will score & pitt. Balls and cones replaceable - the cups are not. Scored, pitted cups = junk hubs.

Cartridge bearing type - replaceable cartridges. Usually no adjustment. Cartridges usually don't need any service but the seals are removable to re-grease the unit. Asian sourced hubs need minor workshop tools to rebuild them (hammer, punch, allen wrench etc). They can be done in under 5 minutes. Chris King and DT 240 hubs need special tools. Chris King use their own proprietary bearing units.


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## tthome (May 12, 2008)

this thread timing is perfect. I have a question.

I received my new RS80 wheelset from Merlin Cycles yesterday (Dura Ace Rim w/Ultegra cup and cone hubs). My wheels look a bit different that what I see on the interenet. Instead of red nipples and silver spokes I have black nipples and black spokes. Also, the sticker design is differnt. My sticker reads "RS 80 CL24" where as some images the sticker reads "RS EIGHTY" all blocky and spelled out. I know Shimano use the cup and cone bearings on their ultegra and dura ace hubs, maybe others, but there seems to be a little more drag on the spin up when i do it by hand and also a little drag on the rear wheel whil it's on the stand. Maybe I'm feeling this because I've always had wheels with cartridge bearings and never experienced cup and cone hubs before. Maybe the wheels need a few miles on them to get the bearings broken in and up to speed? I'm sure I won't notice this while riding but I bought these RS80's because so many people mentioned how easily the Shimano hubs rolled, some saying foreverrrrrrr. I'm not experiecing that out of the box, but then again I have zero miles on this set and plan to put the first 40 miles on them today. Anyone else with experience with these hubs or this wheelset? The perceived drag isn't alarming, nothing is crunching inside but I do feel a little motion going on there is the best way to explain it. My thinking is that I need to get the bearings up to speed maybe? I can't do that while spinning them with two hands, but I can get them spinning quickly in the stand. When I do spin them in the stand and let them come to stop they seem to stop much quicker than some of my other less expensive wheels like Fulcrum 5's, DT Swiss 1650's and Mavic Equipes I own. Any ideas from the "Wheels Wizards" here which I'm definitely not? Thanks!


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

they should be fine. sometimes Shimano's can have some resistance when new, which likely means they were properly greased. they should loosen up the first few hundred miles

if there is 'noticeable' resistance, or grinding, then it is possible the cone nut could have been overtightened for some strange reason (which seems unlikely on a new wheel). if that is the case, it is extremely easy to back it out a touch with the proper cone wrenches.

check out the Park tool website...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Good to see the comments. I guess if Shimano is still using the cup and cone, then the design must be still working quite well.

I have a 19 year old Dura Ace 7400 wheelset that have about 10,000 miles on them and the hub bearings have been regreased exactly 1 time a few years back. They are still rolling very nicely (however, the rear wheel due to its mileage has been out of true and I can't quite true it like it was new, but after 19 years that's pretty damn good).

So based on my good experience with DA wheels, I bought another DA 7900 clinchers wheelset recently. Out the box it both wheels were working perfectly fine. Then one day I unmounted the rear wheel from the bike and then mounted back on, then suddenly I noticed that it was sticking a bit, that is, the rear wheel is not free spinning like it used to be. I did not change anything on the wheel. It baffled me. So what I did was I backed off on the skewer force a tad, and then the wheel free spun again like it was new. Is this possible? At any rate, the wheel has been working just fine. But could someone explain to me why this is? I thought cup-n-cone design are not affect by skewer pressure?? I just don't want to keep riding it if there is indeed something wrong (btw, I have ridden it a few hundred miles after loosening the skewer pressure a tad, and so far I don't notice anything wrong with the wheel at all).

Another of my experience with cup and cone is on my dirt jumper. Hub is some generic cup-n-cone hub probably made in Taiwan or China. I have beaten the crap out of this hub, scored a few loose ball bearings, and even have a loose bearing fall out into the body of the hub while I was repacking regrease and I kept riding it. I probably have done many damage to the hub already as the "gnat's whisker freeplay" is now a notice "side to side wiggle" lol. So I'm sworn on cup-n-cone design when it comes to durability!

Speaking of "gnat's whisker freeplay", I have to say that all my Shimano wheelsets do not have this gnat's whisker freeplay at all, yet the bearings are not tight where it's binding either. In other words, the preload on these are PERFECT. I will say it does take some experience to know how much pressure to put on the preload though, and for Shimano hub, I use 2-finger to tighten up the cup-n-cone is just about the right preload. For my crappy no-name dirt jumper, I have to muck around with it a lot more before I can get the "gnat's whisker" freeplay!

Tthrome,
have you tried to back off the skewer pressure just a tad? Don't worry your wheel ain't gonna fall out.


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Skewer clamping force affects the adjustment. That is why the hub needs to be clamped for proper adjustment. But I have not really noticed it so much with the oversized axles on Dura-Ace hubs.


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## tthome (May 12, 2008)

I don't have the skeweres tightened down what I would call "crazy" tight. I was just hoping that maybe this perceived "drag" I'm feeling will go away with a few miles on the wheels. I've been looking at these RS80's for sometime and decided to pull the trigger. My initial impressions are of course a little less since I feel this drag but then again I've never had cup and cone wheels before so this is new territory for me. I don't want to take a brand new out of the box wheelset to my LBS just to have them possible make a problem out of nothing. Not knocking the LBS, but sometimes it's best not to monkey with something you don't know is broken or you might make it broken. Know what I mean? That's why I posted the question. I love the appearance of the wheels and would like to buy a second pair if this drag will eventually disappear. It is somewhat disappointing that my cheaper wheels feel smoother than these. I hope the bearings do seat well and get "in the groove" and smooth out. I've been known to be a little OCD with my bicycle wrenching. Wheels are my final frontier.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

valleycyclist said:


> Skewer clamping force affects the adjustment. That is why the hub needs to be clamped for proper adjustment. But I have not really noticed it so much with the oversized axles on Dura-Ace hubs.


Ah that would make sense. 

So all this time I've been adjusting cup-n-cone hubs (mainly on the dirt jumper) without the hub being clamped in. This would explain why I have to much around with it so much because once I put the wheel back on the frame, it's always like "oh it's too loose or oh it's too tight" and off comes the wheel and more mucking with the hub. Rinse, repeat, drives me nuts! But I will keep this in mind going forward.

As for the DA hubs, I only took the DA 7400 wheel apart once to regrease it and probably just got lucky that I set the preload right the first time. Haven't tried messing the with 7900 wheelset yet but keep hearing Shimano has made it easy to adjust the bearing preload now, so easy that I've read someone on here posted he could adjust the preload without unmounting the wheel off the bike?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tthome said:


> I don't have the skeweres tightened down what I would call "crazy" tight. I was just hoping that maybe this perceived "drag" I'm feeling will go away with a few miles on the wheels. I've been looking at these RS80's for sometime and decided to pull the trigger. My initial impressions are of course a little less since I feel this drag but then again I've never had cup and cone wheels before so this is new territory for me. I don't want to take a brand new out of the box wheelset to my LBS just to have them possible make a problem out of nothing. Not knocking the LBS, but sometimes it's best not to monkey with something you don't know is broken or you might make it broken. Know what I mean? That's why I posted the question. I love the appearance of the wheels and would like to buy a second pair if this drag will eventually disappear. It is somewhat disappointing that my cheaper wheels feel smoother than these. I hope the bearings do seat well and get "in the groove" and smooth out. I've been known to be a little OCD with my bicycle wrenching. Wheels are my final frontier.


First of, your wheel ain't broken, so relax. Your purchase is good.

Now hold the wheel up by hands and then spin it. does it still drag? if yes, then I'd say there's a 99% chance that the preload is too tight, and so you will need to back it off barely just a tad (I repeat, JUST A TAD), then hold it with your hands again and give it another spin to see if the wheel will spin freely. Betcha it will! Don't loosen the cone TOO much (remember just a tad!), and if you do then you'll immediately notice lots of side-to-side freeplay (in which you would just tighten the cone up a bit). Very easy thing to do once you figure out how to do it. 

Don't worry, you won't break anything. Just don't go crazy and decide to completely disassemble the hub because you'll have a bunch of loose ball bearings falling out of the hubshell! Now I've have only done this many many times on my dirt jumper which has a cup-n-cone hub, but the Shimano one should be of the same concept. I'm not sure of the RS80 hub, but for my el cheapo hub, I need 2 cone wrenches to adjust the bearing preload. I'll bet the LBS guy can adjust this in less than 3 minutes!

check this video out:
Bicycle repair. Overhauling and adjusting a cup and cone type hub. - YouTube


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

cxwrench said:


> cup & cone hubs if properly maintained will pretty much last forever. bonus: new bearings are DIRT cheap. added bonus: no jack*ss will tell you to buy ceramic bearings for them.
> 
> cartridge bearing hubs can be lighter, and you'll find them in pretty much any drilling you want. downside: certain idiots will tell you you'll go faster w/ ceramic bearings.



I couldn't disagree more.



There are plenty of jackholes that will still recommend ceramic balls for those hubs.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> cup & cone hubs if properly maintained will pretty much last forever. bonus: new bearings are DIRT cheap. added bonus: no jack*ss will tell you to buy ceramic bearings for them.
> 
> cartridge bearing hubs can be lighter, and you'll find them in pretty much any drilling you want. downside: certain idiots will tell you you'll go faster w/ ceramic bearings.


Yeah, I still have a box of Campy grade 1/4" bearings that I bought in the early 90s. Use up every once in a while when I re-build Shimano hubs.

R&Ring cartridge bearings does take some of the skill out of rebuilding hubs... 

M


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Shimano hubs with good steel bearings in them roll so, sooo butter smooth. I think the heavier you are, the more you'll notice. I wish they came in more drillings than 32/36. 

I have not noticed the skewer impacting adjustment at all. If I leave a hub with play, it still has play when clamped down. If I set it just right, its just right in the bike.

Big meaty cartridge bearings roll well too.. but with the weight weenie trend, lots of hubs these days are using bearings as small as possible. Its noticeable. Doesnt seem to change my speed, but I can feel something going on.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ergott said:


> I couldn't disagree more.
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of jackholes that will still recommend ceramic balls for those hubs.


yeah, you're right...i'm just hoping that not too many of the ceramic idiots know you can actually get them! :thumbsup:


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

CAMPAGNOLO 2006 2009 SHAMAL EURUS ZONDA HYPERON BORA NEUTRON COMPLETE HUB OVERHAUL - YouTube


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I prefer sealed cartridge bearings.
Roll smooth, don't need any maintenance and generally last a long time.
Replacement can be easy if you have the right tools or take to LBS.
I don't miss the days of screwing around with cone wrenches looking for the perfect adjustment and always wondering did I make it too tight or too loose and thinking is it time to pull it apart and put new grease in.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I got a question for the experts. Maintenance aside, is there a technical advantage to cup-n-cone?

The design of the cup-n-cone is such that when the hub is tilted at an angle, say 20 degrees from vertical (eg, when you are out of the saddle and rocking the bike as you power up a steep),.. you get more stability from cup-n-cone than from a sealed cartridge? With a cartridge bearing, you can only get optimal stability if the bike is vertical, ie., forces of the hub axle has to be perpendicular to the point of contact with the bearing. 

Am I right? It would appear so looking at how the cone makes an apporimately 30-degree angle contact with the ball bearings. So is cup-n-cone design a better design in this respect?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> So is cup-n-cone design a better design in this respect?


The cup and cone hubs have larger bearings and they are designed to take lateral as well as radial loads. CKs cartridges are also designed this way. Every other cartridge hub bearing I know of is radial. They don't take lateral loads well... but lateral loads should be tiny if the bearings are properly adjusted.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Shimano is still using cup and cone design so it has to be pretty good right?


Pros for cup-and-cone: When maintained they last for an obscenely long time. When play develops you just re-adjust. Otherwise you just periodically replace the grease.

Cons: Manufacturing them is more expensive than cartridge bearings so boutique hub vendors use those instead.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Skewer pressure*



TomH said:


> I have not noticed the skewer impacting adjustment at all. If I leave a hub with play, it still has play when clamped down. If I set it just right, its just right in the bike.


I actually did some research on this and found that with a Campy hub, the pressure from the skewer was equivalent to about 1/36th of a turn of the cone adjustment. If your hubs were adjusted at the tightest possible end of the range, then the pressure from the skewer could be an issue, but not likely.



jnbrown said:


> I don't miss the days of screwing around with cone wrenches looking for the perfect adjustment and always wondering did I make it too tight or too loose and thinking is it time to pull it apart and put new grease in.


Those days are long gone with Campy hubs - you adjust the bearings with the wheel clamped in the frame. And no offense but it never was that hard to get the cone adjustment right, at least with good quality hubs.


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## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> I got a question for the experts. Maintenance aside, is there a technical advantage to cup-n-cone?
> 
> The design of the cup-n-cone is such that when the hub is tilted at an angle, say 20 degrees from vertical (eg, when you are out of the saddle and rocking the bike as you power up a steep),.. you get more stability from cup-n-cone than from a sealed cartridge? With a cartridge bearing, you can only get optimal stability if the bike is vertical, ie., forces of the hub axle has to be perpendicular to the point of contact with the bearing.
> 
> Am I right? It would appear so looking at how the cone makes an apporimately 30-degree angle contact with the ball bearings. So is cup-n-cone design a better design in this respect?


I'm an armchair bearing designer myself. I like the cup and cone design (aka angular contact) because of the rigidity and adjustability. From a practical point of view, cartridge (aka deep groove ball) bearings are not adjustable and so optimal preload / clearance is not possible.

Dave


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## timmyturner (Jun 26, 2021)

cxwrench said:


> cup & cone hubs if properly maintained will pretty much last forever. bonus: new bearings are DIRT cheap. added bonus: no jack*ss will tell you to buy ceramic bearings for them.
> 
> cartridge bearing hubs can be lighter, and you'll find them in pretty much any drilling you want. downside: certain idiots will tell you you'll go faster w/ ceramic bearings.


ceramic bearings are cheap for cup and cone makes too much sense not to get them


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

timmyturner said:


> ceramic bearings are cheap for cup and cone makes too much sense not to get them


9 years later you chime in with this? Ceramics are great for high speed and acidic environments like jet engines and turbines. Pretty much pointless for bicycle applications and prone to breaking.


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## timmyturner (Jun 26, 2021)

Kerry Irons said:


> 9 years later you chime in with this? Ceramics are great for high speed and acidic environments like jet engines and turbines. Pretty much pointless for bicycle applications and prone to breaking.


30 years later isnt too late for you to learn. there are many advantages like ceramic is corrosion and rust proof. they are also self smoothing. and they would not break in bike hubs theres little to no impact and theyre used in jet engines and turbines which means theyre faster and made for higher stress applications


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

timmyturner said:


> 30 years later isnt too late for you to learn. there are many advantages like ceramic is corrosion and rust proof. they are also self smoothing. and they would not break in bike hubs theres little to no impact and theyre used in jet engines and turbines which means theyre faster and made for higher stress applications


It's obvious that you either drank the Kool-Aid or you are shilling ceramic hub bearings. Do you really think bicycle hubs face the same kind of stresses that jet engines do?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> It's obvious that you either drank the Kool-Aid or you are shilling ceramic hub bearings. Do you really think bicycle hubs face the same kind of stresses that jet engines do?


Nah, he's just clueless.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

timmyturner said:


> 30 years later isnt too late for you to learn. there are many advantages like ceramic is corrosion and rust proof. they are also self smoothing. and they would not break in bike hubs theres little to no impact and theyre used in jet engines and turbines which means theyre faster and made for higher stress applications


Wow, considering the numerous spelling and grammar errors in your post, I assume you have an IQ somewhere well up in the double digits....Sounds like an 'expert' to me......


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## timmyturner (Jun 26, 2021)

Lombard said:


> It's obvious that you either drank the Kool-Aid or you are shilling ceramic hub bearings. Do you really think bicycle hubs face the same kind of stresses that jet engines do?


put it to you this way, you buy a light bulb that is made to last 2000 hours instead of buying abu dabi bulbs that are made to last 10x's longer. same can be said for cars, lawn mowers, ect... things are made to last so long so you can choose to buy the cheap shit if you like. iv been skating my whole life, skating one time in wet conditions ruins steel bearings, theyre shot. same goes for cup and cone bearings in hubs. u can continue to replace and clean your steel bearings or you can just get ceramic balls and service them much less and never have to replace them. on top of all that they are used for much higher stress applications which means theyre more precise, which means faster, theyre also faster because they stay cleaner since tthey dont corrode and they are self smoothing, dont tell me flawed steal thats gritty and imperfect rolls as good as new steel or ceramic, seems thats what your saying. steel balls only last, at most, few hundred miles before they start to loose their quality. theres absolutely no reason not to upgrade when youre only getting benifits and its cheap af. dont tell me to skate or ride on old rusty damaged ball bearings or tell me to replace them every few days, weeks, or months, because your theory; and thats all it is, is theory, holds as much water as trickle down economics. i speak of real science the kind thats done on the field time and time again and not only can speak results but i live it everyday. end of discussion. on to the next.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

I know it's hard but don't feed the trolls. You can't reason with an idiot.


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