# Beware of the Desperado



## Cycling_Guy

I employed Jalon Hawk (real name Laurence B. Gust) of Desperado Cycles in Deerbrook Wisconsin to create a custom bicycle for me. 22 months and over $14,500 later (yes, I'm an idiot) all I've received are excuses, demands for more money and verbal lashings for being unwilling to pay more for the work of a "master builder". 

Be afraid. Be very afraid.


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## Pirx

Cycling_Guy said:


> 22 months and over $14,500 later (yes, I'm an idiot)


Are you for real? More than 14 grand, with nothing to show for it, and the guy wants more money? Have a lawyer send him a letter, asking for your money back, now, and threatening to sue him otherwise and shut his operation down.



Cycling_Guy said:


> (yes, I'm an idiot)


Sorry to say, but, yes, that appears to be the case.


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## JustTooBig

if you don't have an attorney on retainer, now would be a great time to go ahead and find one.

Googled the business, the website is ...... pretty sad ... and the Hawk dude's rambling writing makes me think he's been smoking drain cleaner.


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## rgordin

I see this is your first post. It is a bit hard to believe you would spend that much on a frame. The web site says frames start at $1900. I don't see how you could get up that high and have a hard time believing your claim without more explanation.

Assuming what you say is true:

As to the future, hire a lawyer located near the business. That way, the threat to file a lawsuit is real. 

As to the past, can you tell us what about his skills or the frame you thought to be worth so much money?


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## Opus51569

This does seem like a situation where hiring a lawyer might be justified. If he's been that difficult, I think I'd insist on the money back, rather than the finished product. Would you want to ride a frame welded by someone who's mad at you? JMHO.


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## weiwentg

More details on the $14,500? His prices start under $2,000 for road bike frames, so unless you had something really special (like hand carved and fancy stainless steel lugs or other really intensive artwork), red flags should have been going off months ago. Keep in mind, I believe Richard Sachs' and Sacha White's prices are in the $3,000 - $4,000 range currently (maybe more). Dave Kirk charges $3,850 for his top end frame. These people are in the top 5 steel builders in the entire US.

You could contact local police. That and the lawyer are the only realistic options.


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## Len J

What did you expect to get for $14,500?

Why would you wait until you had that much in before getting an attorney? I understand incremental bets, but this seems extreme.

I'd like to hear more details about this saga of how you got to this point.

Thanks and good luck

Len


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## Pirx

weiwentg said:


> More details on the $14,500? His prices start under $2,000 for road bike frames, so unless you had something really special (like hand carved and fancy stainless steel lugs or other really intensive artwork), red flags should have been going off months ago.


Hmm, on his website he says that "Parts for complete bicycle are paid in full before the build". I wonder what that means. Is he saying that he wants you to pay for everything (groupset, wheels, etc., etc.) before the build? Why in the world would he do that, and why would anybody agree to these conditions?


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## Marc

Len J said:


> What did you expect to get for $14,500?
> 
> Why would you wait until you had that much in before getting an attorney? I understand incremental bets, but this seems extreme.
> 
> I'd like to hear more details about this saga of how you got to this point.
> 
> Thanks and good luck
> 
> Len





Pirx said:


> Hmm, on his website he says that "Parts for complete bicycle are paid in full before the build". I wonder what that means. Is he saying that he wants you to pay for everything (groupset, wheels, etc., etc.) before the build? Why in the world would he do that, and why would anybody agree to these conditions?


Given this...I could see 14k. Di2+custom frame and BAM. There is 14k. That being said it seems like a lawyer should be called on now if not sooner.


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## Lotophage

I've met Hawk. He used to have a shop near my house. He's a nice guy, a bit of a flake, definitely could get intense- he was a big proponent of AMP suspension forks (remember them?) and he had some bizarre ideas for mountain bikes. 

On the one hand, there's got to be more to this story. 

On the other hand, I could definitely see something with this guy getting way out of control.

Good luck, and contact a lawyer. Also, contact a lawyer.


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## Len J

Marc said:


> Given this...I could see 14k. Di2+custom frame and BAM. There is 14k. That being said it seems like a lawyer should be called on now if not sooner.


I Guess


Frame $2.0K
Di2 $4.5K
Lightweight wheels $5.0K
Couplers $1.0K
Custom Paint $1.0K
Other $1.0K

Yikes.

Len


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## Cycling_Guy

Obviously, it would be difficult to effectively recount all of the details of the past 22 months. But, the $14,600 actually went to build one complete bike (9k), one frame (3.7k) and the rest went to an old Schwinn Balooner frame that was going to be reconditioned. All materials (frame materials and components) and labor to include the boxing and shipping of 2 of the projects were paid in full and in advance. Our problems started in April when after taking a 6 month long contiguous break (there were others that lasted for months but the last one was the longest) I was polite but firm that I wanted immovable finish dates for the projects. He then told me in an E-mail that not only had he spent all of the money I paid for parts to live on for the last months that I owed him an additional 16k for labor. Of course, I was already paid in full and of course no other expenditures were authorized. It was simply invented out of thin air. He then began telling me that time for telephone conversations and E-mail would carry a $50 per hour charge. He went on to say that he had at least another 4k in labor to do. Again, this is on projects that he had already invoiced me in total for parts and labor and had been paid in full. I've even paid for the boxing and shipping charges for 2 of the projects. The Schwinn for example after receiving all monies he told me in an E-mail that he just decided I was not a good home for the frame. No refund of course - Just I'm not getting it. I am not exaggerating one single word. I am totally serious. There is so much more. Again, I emphasize - be afraid boys and girls.


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## providince

Sorry for the craziness but look forward to tracking this thread.


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## bmxhacksaw

$5k more and you can get somebody to "visit" Jalon.


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## Sasquatch

so how special is this dude? daymn

"If you are interested in having a frame built, or complete custom dream machine, then I will have to start a list and when I get close to having time cleared up I will contact those on that list. Deposits will secure position, and my database will keep track on your investment"


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## BernyMac

Thanks for the warning. I will be taking my $14K somewhere else.


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## weiwentg

Cycling_Guy said:


> Obviously, it would be difficult to effectively recount all of the details of the past 22 months. But, the $14,600 actually went to build one complete bike (9k), one frame (3.7k) and the rest went to an old Schwinn Balooner frame that was going to be reconditioned. All materials (frame materials and components) and labor to include the boxing and shipping of 2 of the projects were paid in full and in advance. Our problems started in April when after taking a 6 month long contiguous break (there were others that lasted for months but the last one was the longest) I was polite but firm that I wanted immovable finish dates for the projects. He then told me in an E-mail that not only had he spent all of the money I paid for parts to live on for the last months that I owed him an additional 16k for labor. Of course, I was already paid in full and of course no other expenditures were authorized. It was simply invented out of thin air. He then began telling me that time for telephone conversations and E-mail would carry a $50 per hour charge. He went on to say that he had at least another 4k in labor to do. Again, this is on projects that he had already invoiced me in total for parts and labor and had been paid in full. I've even paid for the boxing and shipping charges for 2 of the projects. The Schwinn for example after receiving all monies he told me in an E-mail that he just decided I was not a good home for the frame. No refund of course - Just I'm not getting it. I am not exaggerating one single word. I am totally serious. There is so much more. Again, I emphasize - be afraid boys and girls.


well, I'd go to the police.

for the record, if I were dropping over $3,000 on a frame or $9,000 on a complete bike, I'd go with a better-known builder. thanks for the heads up, though.

this idiot probably has no assets to be siezed, so frankly, you're most likely to be SOL. I'd also post a review on Google.


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## JustTooBig

Cycling_Guy said:


> Obviously, it would be difficult to effectively recount all of the details of the past 22 months. But, the $14,600 actually went to build one complete bike (9k), one frame (3.7k) and the rest went to an old Schwinn Balooner frame that was going to be reconditioned. All materials (frame materials and components) and labor to include the boxing and shipping of 2 of the projects *were paid in full and in advance*. Our problems started ......... The Schwinn for example after receiving all monies he told me in an E-mail that he just decided I was not a good home for the frame. No refund of course - Just I'm not getting it. I am not exaggerating one single word. I am totally serious. There is so much more. Again, I emphasize - be afraid boys and girls.


If this is factual, it's time to involve your attorney and law enforcement. He's already committed at least one crime by accepting funds for the one bike then "changing his mind" with no return of funds. I assume you have documentation demonstrating an inventory of planned work, the charges for each piece, receipts, etc.?


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## Len J

Cycling_Guy said:


> Obviously, it would be difficult to effectively recount all of the details of the past 22 months. But, the $14,600 actually went to build one complete bike (9k), one frame (3.7k) and the rest went to an old Schwinn Balooner frame that was going to be reconditioned. All materials (frame materials and components) and labor to include the boxing and shipping of 2 of the projects were paid in full and in advance. Our problems started in April when after taking a 6 month long contiguous break (there were others that lasted for months but the last one was the longest) I was polite but firm that I wanted immovable finish dates for the projects. He then told me in an E-mail that not only had he spent all of the money I paid for parts to live on for the last months that I owed him an additional 16k for labor. Of course, I was already paid in full and of course no other expenditures were authorized. It was simply invented out of thin air. He then began telling me that time for telephone conversations and E-mail would carry a $50 per hour charge. He went on to say that he had at least another 4k in labor to do. Again, this is on projects that he had already invoiced me in total for parts and labor and had been paid in full. I've even paid for the boxing and shipping charges for 2 of the projects. The Schwinn for example after receiving all monies he told me in an E-mail that he just decided I was not a good home for the frame. No refund of course - Just I'm not getting it. I am not exaggerating one single word. I am totally serious. There is so much more. Again, I emphasize - be afraid boys and girls.


Yikes.

If you have documentation, he's committed crimes. Good luck with the lawsuit.

Len


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## Sasquatch

his website itself is enough cause for doubt. 

methinks the OP is BSing. A personal grudge with Desperado perhaps?


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## Opus51569

bmxhacksaw said:


> $5k more and you can get somebody to "visit" Jalon.


5k? You need to hang out in crappier bars.


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## Len J

There are a few red flags for me on the websight:

1.) $1,000 deposit. Even e-richie was only $400 Why would an unknown builder need that much unless he was living on it.

2.) Paying for all components in advance of the frqame being built. I've done a few customs and researched a ton and never heard of that before.

I'm curious as to what due diligence the OP did before selecting desperado.......and how much experience he had with custom builds before this experience.

Len


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## cmg

sounds like he was using peter's money to pay paul and ran out of the next customer to pay paul again. engage the authorities, no telling how many other customer's this master builder has done this to.


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## Cinelli 82220

The OP may not have done due diligence, but the crime was wholly on the part of the builder. It would be interesting if 5-Oh paid a visit and noticed funny smells and bypassed power lines. Or hundreds of empty Sudafed boxes in the trash.

This has potential to surpass the Pride Saga in epic-ness. :thumbsup:


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## burgrat

Sorry OP, but you'd have to be crazier than a sh*thouse rat to spend that kind of money from a nut like that. Sounds bogus. That website alone would make me question the quality of that operation. Maybe they should be called Desperado por Dinero bicycles.


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## Lotophage

burgrat said:


> Sorry OP, but you'd have to be crazier than a sh*thouse rat to spend that kind of money from a nut like that. Sounds bogus. That website alone would make me question the quality of that operation. Maybe they should be called Desperado por Dinero bicycles.


The guy who built my custom has a crap site. Most builders have crap sites. You don't buy a custom based on a website. You talk to the builder. I've talked to Hawk. He talks a hell of a good game. He was working with stainless steel tubing 15 years ago. Master builder. All that crap. 

I could easily see him talking his way into someone's heart.

Have some sympathy- it's hard as hell to admit you gave a con man 14 grand that you are never gonna see again. Most folks would stay silent and let the next mark get bit.


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## Fivethumbs

I'm hearing more and more stories of frame builders (wheel builders) suddenly going south.


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## tjjm36m3

The "how to order" section of his web page cracks me up.


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## atpjunkie

if you have 14K to drop on a bike you should be able to afford an attorney
that would be my second choice
I think a 'hired thug' would be first, cheaper


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## Lotophage

atpjunkie said:


> if you have 14K to drop on a bike you should be able to afford an attorney
> that would be my second choice
> I think a 'hired thug' would be first, cheaper


Either way, that money is gone.


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## ms6073

Cycling_Guy said:


> Our problems started in April when after taking a 6 month long contiguous break (there were others that lasted for months but the last one was the longest) I was polite but firm that I wanted immovable finish dates for the projects.


Ooh, I need a paid vacation, can you send me some money to?  Sorry, this guy sounds like a smuck. If you are in the US, I would suggest filing a complaint with your state attorney general's office as most now have mechanisms for filing online complaints



Cycling_Guy said:


> He then told me in an E-mail that not only had he spent all of the money I paid for parts to live on for the last months that I owed him an additional 16k for labor.


So he has straight up admitted that he defrauded you? If you have this e-mail, you should be able to go to law enforecement (US Postal Inspector or FBI if out of state) because for this amount of money he has committed one (or more) felonies!



Cycling_Guy said:


> It was simply invented out of thin air. He then began telling me that time for telephone conversations and E-mail would carry a $50 per hour charge. He went on to say that he had at least another 4k in labor to do.


So he accepted funds, spent said funds, and is now wanting to alter the contract he has with you? Time to file a lawsuit for like $250,000!



Cycling_Guy said:


> The Schwinn for example after receiving all monies he told me in an E-mail that he just decided I was not a good home for the frame. No refund of course - Just I'm not getting it.


Okay, end of discussion, that is theft! No more time for talk and e-mails, Attorney Genral, USPS Inspector General, local law enforcement, and file a big dollar lawsuit! :mad2:


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## orange_julius

Cinelli 82220 said:


> The OP may not have done due diligence, but the crime was wholly on the part of the builder. It would be interesting if 5-Oh paid a visit and noticed funny smells and bypassed power lines. Or hundreds of empty Sudafed boxes in the trash.
> 
> This has potential to surpass the Pride Saga in epic-ness. :thumbsup:


So we only have to wait until a satisfied customer mysteriously comes out of nowhere to extol the virtues of this company?


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## Cinelli 82220

Cycling_Guy said:


> 22 months


He's had you on hold for 22 months. His website gives the impression that business is so good he isn't even taking orders anymore:



Desperado said:


> I have frames to build for the next 2 years. If you are interested in having a frame built, or complete custom dream machine, then I will have to start a list and when I get close to having time cleared up I will contact those on that list


What the heck was he doing for those 22 months? 
He also uses J.P. Wiggle framesaver and builds with Reynolds 952. (sic)
Sounds like his hold on reality is sketchy.


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## Cycling_Guy

To All,

My intent when I posted about my experience on this and other cycling forums was 2-fold. I wanted to inform but I also wanted to make myself feel better. I do indeed hope that I passed on information to help others make a decision if they are looking for a custom builder. However, for me personally I'm now feeling worse. I wrote on another forum that now on top of being an idiot I feel small and vindictive. As childish as it might sound, I went into this to make personal dreams a reality. Clearly, I now have something of a nightmare on my hands and my personal behavior is adding to that - in an emotional sense anyway. Not feeling very good about me right now. What I have said is true and encourage anyone who reads this to use it as part of their decision making process.


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## martinrjensen

So, what ya gonna do? You got to do something...


Cycling_Guy said:


> To All,
> 
> My intent when I posted about my experience on this and other cycling forums was 2-fold. I wanted to inform but I also wanted to make myself feel better. I do indeed hope that I passed on information to help others make a decision if they are looking for a custom builder. However, for me personally I'm now feeling worse. I wrote on another forum that now on top of being an idiot I feel small and vindictive. As childish as it might sound, I went into this to make personal dreams a reality. Clearly, I now have something of a nightmare on my hands and my personal behavior is adding to that - in an emotional sense anyway. Not feeling very good about me right now. What I have said is true and encourage anyone who reads this to use it as part of their decision making process.


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## krisdrum

Cycling_Guy said:


> To All,
> 
> My intent when I posted about my experience on this and other cycling forums was 2-fold. I wanted to inform but I also wanted to make myself feel better. I do indeed hope that I passed on information to help others make a decision if they are looking for a custom builder. However, for me personally I'm now feeling worse. I wrote on another forum that now on top of being an idiot I feel small and vindictive. As childish as it might sound, I went into this to make personal dreams a reality. Clearly, I now have something of a nightmare on my hands and my personal behavior is adding to that - in an emotional sense anyway. Not feeling very good about me right now. What I have said is true and encourage anyone who reads this to use it as part of their decision making process.


What the heck is making you feel bad about yourself? Vindictive? The guy pointblank stole 10s of thousands of dollars from you. Outing this punk should only be the tip of the iceberg. I'm with the rest of the folks, local law enforcement, attorney general, USPS/FBI, retain a lawyer, etc.


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## Lotophage

Cycling_Guy said:


> To All,
> 
> My intent when I posted about my experience on this and other cycling forums was 2-fold. I wanted to inform but I also wanted to make myself feel better. I do indeed hope that I passed on information to help others make a decision if they are looking for a custom builder. However, for me personally I'm now feeling worse. I wrote on another forum that now on top of being an idiot I feel small and vindictive. As childish as it might sound, I went into this to make personal dreams a reality. Clearly, I now have something of a nightmare on my hands and my personal behavior is adding to that - in an emotional sense anyway. Not feeling very good about me right now. What I have said is true and encourage anyone who reads this to use it as part of their decision making process.


Don't feel bad. Do Not Feel Bad. 

I had a custom built 2 years ago. It was due in september, before my 40th birthday. July, still on schedule. Put my old bike on ebay, sell it off in August. September, delays. October, delays. November, delays. Finally got the bike in december, just in time for a long winter. 

Mine was only 3 months late and it felt horrible. I worried that I had picked the wrong builder. I worried that if he's this late, is he going to build a good frame? oh crap, what have I done? that was just 3 months.

You've got every right to be mad, you need to call a lawyer and/or the police.

Your builder is a con man. He's preying on your good nature and your dreams and he's taking you to the cleaners. Do Not Feel Sorry For Him. 

I believe that custom bikes are awesome. BUT, builders are a mixed lot. THere needs to be some kind of board or whatever to say who is doing good work and who's not.

Other people have been where you are, with builders with even bigger names.

So I'll say this: Banjo Bicycles in Madison, WI does fantastic work. He's not great at scheduling yet but he does excellent work. 

Anybody else with custom experience they'd like to share?


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## rhauft

I'd pay this guy a visit. How far away is his guy's shop?


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## anotherguy

Lawyer up. Contact a US Postal Inspector. If you paid for anything with a credit card contact the company and dispute the charges as fraud on the part of the vendor.


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## rward325

I have seen better verbiage from Nigerian Check Scammers!

A $1000 non-refundable deposit is required to begin your project. This secures the client with a specific time for build; allows me a measure of commitment from the client with time taken to work out what is exactly going to be built before the time allocated, and allows the purchase of frame tubing before the build. One week before the scheduled period of build a payment in full with a casher’s check or money order. Your money is an investment of a minimal of 40 hours of work, which is the time that is specifically appointed. If it is found that there is some question of what is to be the final product, the client is responsible for making this apparent before final payment. 

Parts for complete bicycle are paid in full before the build.


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## BernyMac

Do not get mad...get even! Lawyer up and get your money back.


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## wotnoshoeseh

martinrjensen said:


> So, what ya gonna do? You got to do something...


martinrjensen is correct. You've got to do something.

Personally I do not see you as being vindictive or small minded or anything like that.
You have taken the bigger step of admitting your faults so that others do not fall into the same trap. To my mind that is a BIG thing to do, particularly when you look at the storyline thus far.

So I say all that, to really say this....

"Do not feel any sympathy for this person." 
He has defrauded you and you now need to take whatever steps you can to get that money, or a portion of it back.

Somebody in this thread has a sig. line "Evil is the lack of empathy" or something along those lines. How true this is for this particular guy. In response you need to treat like with like, and fight back to retrieve your hard earned.

Good Luck,
wotnoshoeseh


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## Cycling_Guy

Thanks everyone. Of course, you guys are right. I just need to exhale, unplug the butt kicking machine, get some perspective and figure out how to go about this with integrity. There's a way. There's always a way. It's important to me to still be able to look in the mirror. Even in a situation like this, actually, maybe most importantly in a situation like this I have to remember that I'm still dealing with a human being. A man that has lost his way for sure. But, a man nonetheless. There is an appropriate balance somewhere between just walking away and "going nuclear". I need to work it out.


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## maxxevv

Not that I want to add, but when I read what he was saying about 953 tubing... I nearly fell off my chair. 

Its really, really far off from what he wrote there ... And good grief.... Silver Fillet Brazing on 953 tubing?


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## Scooper

maxxevv said:


> Not that I want to add, but when I read what he was saying about 953 tubing... I nearly fell off my chair.
> 
> Its really, really far off from what he wrote there ... And good grief....*Silver Fillet Brazing on 953 tubing?*


Yes; it's not that common, but it is done.

Silver Fillet Brazing Materials for Stainless (953 and XCr)

Simoncini:


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## LookDave

Cycling_Guy said:


> Thanks everyone. Of course, you guys are right. I just need to exhale, unplug the butt kicking machine, get some perspective and figure out how to go about this with integrity. There's a way. There's always a way. It's important to me to still be able to look in the mirror. Even in a situation like this, actually, maybe most importantly in a situation like this I have to remember that I'm still dealing with a human being. A man that has lost his way for sure. But, a man nonetheless. There is an appropriate balance somewhere between just walking away and "going nuclear". I need to work it out.


Integrity, in this case, means reporting someone who by your account has defrauded you on an expensive bike build, and stolen another bike from you. I once served on a jury for the fraud trial of a building contractor who did the same kind of thing, only with "custom windows". After convicted, turned out at sentencing he had numerous prior convictions for similar stuff. Case we heard finally took him off the street and, at least for time he did in jail, prevented further defrauding of additional unsuspecting customers.

Lawyer up for yourself, and for sake of general public report criminal activity against you to police and other authories as recommended by numerous posters. So long as you are operating within the law yourself, you are acting with integrity.


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## krisdrum

Cycling_Guy said:


> Thanks everyone. Of course, you guys are right. I just need to exhale, unplug the butt kicking machine, get some perspective and figure out how to go about this with integrity. There's a way. There's always a way. It's important to me to still be able to look in the mirror. Even in a situation like this, actually, maybe most importantly in a situation like this I have to remember that I'm still dealing with a human being. A man that has lost his way for sure. But, a man nonetheless. There is an appropriate balance somewhere between just walking away and "going nuclear". I need to work it out.


Integrity? You are worried about your integrity? You want to ensure you treat him like a human? Has he treated you with the same respect and integrity? I don't think so. He has stolen a large sum of money from you. Period. And fully admitted it more or less. He robbed you to keep his supply of whatever coming in (food, drink, drugs, etc.). Would you have the same sympathy for someone if they mugged you at gunpoint to get their fix? I sure as heck wouldn't. Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, best case scenario he fell on some hard times and poorly managed his business and funds. But is not bucking up and saying "listen, I screwed up, a deal is a deal, here is the stuff I promised you." Any framebuilder worth their salt would take a loss to ensure their customer is satisfied or at least be honest and negotiate a mutual arrangement. Unless he steps up and does that, he is a punk. I say you treat him like a punk and spank him hard. And I say this two-fold. You deserve your money back or the products you contracted with him for and I believe you have a responsibility to other potential customers to teach him a lesson about customer service and being an honest upstanding business owner. You have been raped, are you just going to go away quietly and say sorry, I asked for that, or are you going to fight back for your rights and your integrity. Outside of physically harming the guy, I don't think there is much you can do that will deflate your integrity and at this point, the builder has already tossed his out the window. 

Lawyer up, call the local police, call the USPS Inspector General and make it clear you are not just going to slink away and let him get away with treating you like the filth on the bottom of his shoe.


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## rgordin

Cycling_Guy said:


> Thanks everyone. Of course, you guys are right. I just need to exhale, unplug the butt kicking machine, get some perspective and figure out how to go about this with integrity. There's a way. There's always a way. It's important to me to still be able to look in the mirror. Even in a situation like this, actually, maybe most importantly in a situation like this I have to remember that I'm still dealing with a human being. A man that has lost his way for sure. But, a man nonetheless. There is an appropriate balance somewhere between just walking away and "going nuclear". I need to work it out.


Spend some time and find an attorney whom you can trust. Lawyers are not just guns that you aim. A good attorney will guide you in planning the best course of action - it may be a phone call, a threatening letter, a draft legal complaint, a lawsuit, or something else. Small claims court might be an inexpensive option. Some small claims courts do not allow attorneys, though you can still use one to lead you through the process. 

Depending on the facts, you might be able to file suit in your county. He would likely not appear and you could then get a default judgment and enforce it. Or it might be smarter to get an attorney who is local to the builder.

A strategy is best worked out by reviewing *all *the facts and concerns with an attorney. In view of your hesitations and your description of him to date, I think you would be better served - both from a result standpoint and an emotional one - by retaining counsel.

Good attorneys are counselors as well as courtroom advocates.


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## anotherguy

Cycling_Guy said:


> figure out how to go about this with integrity.


There isn't really anything to figure out.

Hire an attorney.

Contact the US Attorney and the US Postal Inspector.



> *940 18 U.S.C. Section 1341—Elements of Mail Fraud*
> 
> "There are two elements in mail fraud: (1) having devised or intending to devise a scheme to defraud (or to perform specified fraudulent acts), and (2) use of the mail for the purpose of executing, or attempting to execute, the scheme (or specified fraudulent acts)." *Schmuck* v. United States, 489 U.S. 705, 721 n. 10 (1989); see also Pereira v. United States, 347 U.S. 1, 8 (1954) ("The elements of the offense of mail fraud under . . . § 1341 are (1) a scheme to defraud, and (2) the mailing of a letter, etc., for the purpose of executing the scheme."); Laura A. Eilers & Harvey B. Silikovitz, Mail and Wire Fraud, 31 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 703, 704 (1994) (cases cited).





> *941 18 U.S.C. 1343—Elements of Wire Fraud*
> 
> The elements of wire fraud under Section 1343 directly parallel those of the mail fraud statute, but require the use of an interstate telephone call or electronic communication made in furtherance of the scheme. United States v. Briscoe, 65 F.3d 576, 583 (7th Cir. 1995) (citing United States v. Ames Sintering Co., 927 F.2d 232, 234 (6th Cir. 1990) (per curiam)); United States v. Frey, 42 F.3d 795, 797 (3d Cir. 1994) (wire fraud is identical to mail fraud statute except that it speaks of communications transmitted by wire); see also, e.g., United States v. Profit, 49 F.3d 404, 406 n. 1 (8th Cir.) (the four essential elements of the crime of wire fraud are: (1) that the defendant voluntarily and intentionally devised or participated in a scheme to defraud another out of money; (2) that the defendant did so with the intent to defraud; (3) that it was reasonably foreseeable that interstate wire communications would be used; and (4) that interstate wire communications were in fact used) (citing Manual of Model Criminal Jury Instructions for the District Courts of the Eighth Circuit 6.18.1341 (West 1994)), cert. denied, 115 S.Ct. 2289 (1995); United States v. Hanson, 41 F.3d 580, 583 (10th Cir. 1994) (two elements comprise the crime of wire fraud: (1) a scheme or artifice to defraud; and (2) use of interstate wire communication to facilitate that scheme); United States v. Faulkner, 17 F.3d 745, 771 (5th Cir. 1994) (essential elements of wire fraud are: (1) a scheme to defraud and (2) the use of, or causing the use of, interstate wire communications to execute the scheme), cert. denied, 115 S.Ct. 193 (1995); United States v. Cassiere, 4 F.3d 1006 (1st Cir. 1993) (to prove wire fraud government must show (1) scheme to defraud by means of false pretenses, (2) defendant's knowing and willful participation in scheme with intent to defraud, and (3) use of interstate wire communications in furtherance of scheme); United States v. Maxwell, 920 F.2d 1028, 1035 (D.C. Cir. 1990) ("Wire fraud requires proof of (1) a scheme to defraud; and (2) the use of an interstate wire communication to further the scheme.").


At a minimum, there is cause to pursue an investigation on both of those charges. 

Go here to start:

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/forms/MailFraudComplaint.aspx

The longer you wait, the fewer details you will be able to accurately remember and the harder it will be for the proper authorities to put together a case. Get after it now.


----------



## jswilson64

If the OP's story is true, time to get a lawyer and file a lawsuit. Good luck getting law enforcement to take the case. At my job we have a hard time getting law enforcement to bother with doctors committing hundreds of thousands of dollars of healthcare fraud. Unless the guy used a gun and forcibly took the money (and 3 cops witnessed it), many prosecutors consider it a "he said/she said" situation.


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## anotherguy

jswilson64 said:


> If the OP's story is true, time to get a lawyer and file a lawsuit. Good luck getting law enforcement to take the case. At my job we have a hard time getting law enforcement to bother with doctors committing hundreds of thousands of dollars of healthcare fraud.


Postal inspectors are a little different. Mail fraud _*IS*_ their raison d'etre.


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## rgordin

In view of the large number of frauds involving the use of mail or "wire" and in view of the large number of crimes committed that violate federal law, it is unlikely that either will want to investigate this case. Not every possible or actual violation is investigated or prosecuted. Prosecutors exercise discretion as to which cases to take. This is absolutely true at the federal level. In some states, though, citizens have more of a formal role in the initiation of criminal complaints. All states have criminal laws that cover fraud.

There are a number of reasons that it is unlikely that any federal agent would want to investigate this case. These include the fact that the amount is small and there is no evidence of broader harm - such as might be the case of a fraud involving mass mailings, telephone calling or web advertising. Even more important, this case has indicia of a civil dispute - "he said/she said." Law enforcement officers try to avoid getting dragged into disputes of this kind. Though the merchant may be unsavory, trying to prove specific intent to defraud in this kind of case is difficult.


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## Cinelli 82220

Don't feel bad. At the very least you have saved others from being victimised by this jerk.


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## onespeedbiker

Double Post


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## onespeedbiker

Due to the massive increase in web stores, most states have enacted laws that allow law enforcement to investigate such crimes either from the buyers or the sellers end. Your first step should be to contact law enforcement for Deerbrook Wisconsin, which appears to be Forest County Sheriff http://www.co.forest.wi.gov/localgov_departments_details.asp?deptid=393&locid=145 or the WI Department of Justice http://www.doj.state.wi.us/ag/contact.asp
Call and make a report of theft by misappropriation of funds (or whatever statue the Deputy says is appropriate). You never know, they may already be building a case against this guy. At the very least they will send someone by the bike shop and tell the guy that a complaint has been made against him. It's an easy call and they should be able to take the report over the phone. Good Luck


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## Kontact

Scooper said:


> Yes; it's not that common, but it is done.
> 
> Silver Fillet Brazing Materials for Stainless (953 and XCr)


Since Fillet Pro isn't really silver braze, and "Jalon Hawk" seems to be kind of stupid, and failed to successfully connect the tubeset he bought, I think it is safe to assume he was using regular silver solder, not FIllet Pro. And you can't braze stainless with regular half silver braze.


----------



## Italianrider76

You haven't actually answered the question....have you hired a lawyer?


----------



## maxxevv

Kontact said:


> Since Fillet Pro isn't really silver braze, and "Jalon Hawk" seems to be kind of stupid, and failed to successfully connect the tubeset he bought, I think it is safe to assume he was using regular silver solder, not FIllet Pro. And you can't braze stainless with regular half silver braze.


Thanks Kontact, for clarifying on that. Because I have read the literature for 953 some years ago and did remember something along the lines of silver fillet braze being unsuitable on it. 

I do own a 953 tubed frameset myself. Albeit, a factory sample I got through my personal contacts some years ago.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

onespeedbiker,

Thank you very much for your sound and practical advice. I also thank you for taking the time to post the relevant links with an explanation. You have set my direction. Bravo to you, sir. Bravo.


----------



## Scooper

Kontact said:


> Since Fillet Pro isn't really silver braze...


Would you care to clarify? I think Fred Parr, developer of Fillet Pro silver filler alloy, would disagree.


----------



## T K

I'm having a real hard time swallowing all of this. Either it is all a lie or the OP is the most gullable person out there. Then to top it off he sounds like a helpless little puppy. After you hire a lawyer, go hire yourself a shrink. 
Good lord dude! Sprout a pair!!!!


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

T K said:


> I'm having a real hard time swallowing all of this. *Either it is all a lie or the OP is the most gullable person out there. Then to top it off he sounds like a helpless little puppy. After you hire a lawyer, go hire yourself a shrink.
> Good lord dude! Sprout a pair!!!*!




Gee whiz. Kind of hard on the OP? 

Maybe he's just a nice guy with integrity that's been fortunate to never have had run-in's with schmucks in his personal life like the rest of us bitter been-had, waylaid, sucker- punched, used-to-trust-people, people.


----------



## SystemShock

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Gee whiz. Kind of hard on the OP?
> 
> Maybe he's just a nice guy with integrity that's been fortunate to never have had run-in's with schmucks in his personal life like the rest of us bitter been-had, waylaid, sucker- punched, used-to-trust-people, people.



Well said. No need to kick someone when they're down. 
.


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## T K

Yeah, maybe a bit harsh. Sometimes one needs a good slap across the face to wake up. 
I really do wish the OP well if his story is true. 
That builder is a scum bag POS who deserves no mercy.


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## Dajianshan

infopete... paging infopete...


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## OldEndicottHiway

T K said:


> Yeah, maybe a bit harsh. Sometimes one needs a good slap across the face to wake up.
> I really do wish the OP well if his story is true.
> That builder is a scum bag POS who deserves no mercy.


Lol. Yes, we _all_ need a good smack upside the head from time to time! Myself more than the median population of deserving head-smackees...  .

However, my "instinct" says Cycling_Guy is a person who conducts business in a trusting manner, on a handshake and a person's word, and got caught blindsided by someone who may not conduct himself in the same. 

Like SystemShock said...probably not a time to kick a guy when he's down.


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## mudge

The fact that he doesn't go by his real name should've been enough to tip you off.


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## Camilo

I don't understand why OP thinks that "integrity" and nailing the SOB are not consistent. Integrity in this case means going after the thief with all means necessary and affordable to the OP.

He's a thief and a scam artist. You did absolutely the right thing by describing your situation on this forum. You have high integrity. Keep it up by getting your (YOUR) money back. He's a thief.


----------



## ms6073

Cycling_Guy said:


> He then told me in an E-mail that not only had he spent all of the money I paid for parts to live on for the last months that I owed him an additional 16k for labor.


So he admited in an email that he committed fraud and larceny. Around these parts if someone is entrusted with that amount of money and personal property in order to complete a project but instead opts to misappropriate the funds for personal gain, that person is typically arrested/indicted/convicted!


----------



## Kontact

Scooper said:


> Would you care to clarify? I think Fred Parr, developer of Fillet Pro silver filler alloy, would disagree.


All of Freddy's posts I've read on VSalon suggest that it is a low temperature alloy replacment for silver, and that it works where silver does not. I would not say that is doesn't contain silver, but it sticks to stuff that silver doesn't.

I found on Desperado's site a reference to his mastery of Metax. Do you have any of his work, Scooper?


----------



## Scooper

Kontact said:


> All of Freddy's posts I've read on VSalon suggest that it is a low temperature alloy replacment for silver, and that it works where silver does not. I would not say that is doesn't contain silver, but it sticks to stuff that silver doesn't.
> 
> I found on Desperado's site a reference to his mastery of Metax. Do you have any of his work, Scooper?


If you're asking if I have anything made by Desperado or Jalon Hawk, the answer is no. I have no knowledge of Jalon Hawk's skills or ethical practices and my comments in this thread have been limited to a response to one poster to the thread who seemed to question the viability of a fillet brazed 953 frame using silver bearing alloy filler. I posted a link to Brazage products developed by Freddy Parr, including Fillet Pro. Fillet Pro has been described by framebuilder Dave Bohm, a Fillet Pro distributor, as a "high content silver rod".

It would be interesting to know the silver content of Fillet Pro and what other stuff is in the rod that makes it adhere so much better to stainless tubes than, say, 56 silver alloy. I'm sure the Stainless Light flux helps.


----------



## Dajianshan

It sounds like a bicycle ponzi scheme.


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## dbohemian

Scooper said:


> It would be interesting to know the silver content of Fillet Pro and what other stuff is in the rod that makes it adhere so much better to stainless tubes than, say, 56 silver alloy. I'm sure the Stainless Light flux helps.


Not to get too off topic, I would welcome another thread specifically about silver fillet brazing the newer gen of stainless tube but I wanted to clarify some statements. 

Fillet pro is indeed a silver brazing rod with a high silver content. It is not so much that it "sticks" better than other rods like 56% but more that its specific ratio of silver,copper, tin, nickel allow it to build fillets easier and without the voids that can sometimes happen with other silvers due to the higher contraction rate. This concept is generally referred to as eutectic and even small differences in the formulation can have great effects much in the same way that the addition of 1-2% additional carbon in steel can change it's hardness drastically and go from a very ductile material to a very brittle one.

The flux too is very important in making it work. Much fanfare is given to the rod when in reality little improvement has occurred of the last 40 years. Flux on the other hand has change enormously and it is the combination of flux and rod that can allow the joining of stainless steels as a safe and reliable process whereas it may not have been in the past.

Sorry about the deviation, no back to your regular programming.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles and partner in Cycledesigns who produces fillet pro and stainless light flux.


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## Scooper

Thanks, Dave, for a very informative post.


----------



## Coolhand

dbohemian said:


> Not to get too off topic, I would welcome another thread specifically about silver fillet brazing the newer gen of stainless tube but I wanted to clarify some statements.
> 
> Fillet pro is indeed a silver brazing rod with a high silver content. It is not so much that it "sticks" better than other rods like 56% but more that its specific ratio of silver,copper, tin, nickel allow it to build fillets easier and without the voids that can sometimes happen with other silvers due to the higher contraction rate. This concept is generally referred to as eutectic and even small differences in the formulation can have great effects much in the same way that the addition of 1-2% additional carbon in steel can change it's hardness drastically and go from a very ductile material to a very brittle one.
> 
> The flux too is very important in making it work. Much fanfare is given to the rod when in reality little improvement has occurred of the last 40 years. Flux on the other hand has change enormously and it is the combination of flux and rod that can allow the joining of stainless steels as a safe and reliable process whereas it may not have been in the past.
> 
> Sorry about the deviation, no back to your regular programming.
> 
> Dave Bohm
> Bohemian Bicycles and partner in Cycledesigns who produces fillet pro and stainless light flux.


Thanks for posting-- +rep! :thumbsup:


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## cmg

hope the OP keeps the forum informed of the situation with this master builder. it's an interesting read.


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## medimond

IMO the OP has become a victim and he's began feeling like perhaps it was his fault, sort of like how the rape victim starts thinking it was her fault all the while she told him NO the entire time. I'd also be angry and want to tell the word, so they didn't get into the same issue. I'd also feel a bit embarrassed as well on how manipulated and how much money was taken from me. These are all to be expected responses.


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## Cycling_Guy

Small update. I wrote the Wisconsin BBB. They accepted my complaint, responded and forwarded the complaint to Laurence Gust (Desperado Cycles). So far, he has ignored the first request for response and has been given a second notice. If he does not respond to that one I will be contacted by the BBB for the next step. There are other agencies, also. Some were posted here. So, I'm working the process. It's odd but emotionally I seem to bounce back and forth between being angry at him and feeling like a dirtbag myself. ARGH.


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## Kontact

Cycling_Guy said:


> Small update. I wrote the Wisconsin BBB. They accepted my complaint, responded and forwarded the complaint to Laurence Gust (Desperado Cycles). So far, he has ignored the first request for response and has been given a second notice. If he does not respond to that one I will be contacted by the BBB for the next step. There are other agencies, also. Some were posted here. So, I'm working the process. It's odd but emotionally I seem to bounce back and forth between being angry at him and feeling like a dirtbag myself. ARGH.


You can always choose to drop the charges, but I think involving an official agency is best done sooner rather than later. You haven't received poor service or long wait times - you're being defrauded and extorted - a bit beyond the BBB's mission. The cops can make Gust show them your Schwinn to make sure nothing "happens" to it.


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## slegros

Cycling_Guy said:


> Small update. I wrote the Wisconsin BBB. They accepted my complaint, responded and forwarded the complaint to Laurence Gust (Desperado Cycles). So far, he has ignored the first request for response and has been given a second notice. If he does not respond to that one I will be contacted by the BBB for the next step. There are other agencies, also. Some were posted here. So, I'm working the process. It's odd but emotionally I seem to bounce back and forth between being angry at him and feeling like a dirtbag myself. ARGH.


I had a similar experience with a construction contractor. I initially went the BBB route to cover myself then hired a replacement contractor to finish the job properly, and went full legal on the original contractor. In the end, I had the job done right(albeit behind schedule) and was compensated for the delays/costs associated with the job.

You need to talk to a LAWYER and the POLICE NOW!!! Start exercising your legal rights. Don't wait!!! The BBB alone is not enough. 

The relationship between you and the builder has already gone sour. Its OVER. You need to move on. Stop entertaining visions of THIS BUILDER doing your bike.

Start picking out a reputable new builder, and in the meantime throw EVERYTHING you can at this guy to PROTECT YOURSELF!!!

Delays at this point will only hurt your cause.....

How can you feel like a dirtbag? For protecting yourself? Even if you are refunded all of your money you still come out worse off due to the time, stress and hassle....


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## 92gli

Cycling_Guy said:


> Small update. I wrote the Wisconsin BBB. They accepted my complaint, responded and forwarded the complaint to Laurence Gust (Desperado Cycles). So far, he has ignored the first request for response and has been given a second notice. If he does not respond to that one I will be contacted by the BBB for the next step. There are other agencies, also. Some were posted here. So, I'm working the process. It's odd but emotionally I seem to bounce back and forth between being angry at him and feeling like a dirtbag myself. ARGH.


BBB doesn't have the teeth to do anything except put a report on their website that says he didn't respond to a complaint. You've wasted more time on that.

It's time for you to stop worrying about his well being (or whatever it is that compells you to have sympathy for this scumbag) and lawyer up. At this point losing 30% to a lawyer is better than nothing.


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## Dajianshan

You might also want to contact his state's Atty. General's Office and file a complaint for possible fraud. Keep a detailed record of all your contact with Desperado: emails, telephone calls, letters, faxes.... anything. Establish that you have gone to great lengths to resolve this issue in a reasonable and civil manner. I had the same trouble a couple years ago with the online Team Cyclist store.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Cycling_Guy said:


> Small update. I wrote the Wisconsin BBB. They accepted my complaint, responded and forwarded the complaint to Laurence Gust (Desperado Cycles). So far, he has ignored the first request for response and has been given a second notice. If he does not respond to that one I will be contacted by the BBB for the next step. There are other agencies, also. Some were posted here. So, I'm working the process. *It's odd but emotionally I seem to bounce back and forth between being angry at him and feeling like a dirtbag myself. * ARGH.





Let's say you wrote your neighbor a deposit check because he promised to help you build a garage the following weekend. Instead of helping you build it, he not only cashed your good faith check but also took all of your tools and decorated his own garage with them.. 

When you hollered over the fence that you want your money and tools back, he flipped you off and went back to dozing in his hammock with a gin and tonic in hand. 

Would you then feel like a dirtbag for calling the police?


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Thanks everyone. You're right. I mean, of course you are right. I have no outlying desires to have the man build for me any longer. Hell, he won't even answer entirely civil E-mail. Hasn't for months. He told me that his phone and Internet service was being turned off so our only communication means would be regular mail. But, his phone still works (I've left plenty of messages) and he still has Internet. Point being just another lie. I guess I feel dirty because it all comes down to dirt. You know the saying that you should never get into a wresting match with a pig because you both get dirty and the pig likes it. That's how I feel. Thanks again for all the great advice and "right minded" thinking. I'll push forward to more significant efforts with law enforcement and the Attorney General sounds like a very good idea. I'm still grasping to some belief that there is actual decency or morality left in the man and was hoping a gentle nudge (via the BBB) would be the wake up. No such luck.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Cycling_Guy said:


> Thanks everyone. You're right. I mean, of course you are right. I have no outlying desires to have the man build for me any longer. Hell, he won't even answer entirely civil E-mail. Hasn't for months. He told me that his phone and Internet service was being turned off so our only communication means would be regular mail. But, his phone still works (I've left plenty of messages) and he still has Internet. Point being just another lie. I guess I feel dirty because it all comes down to dirt. You know the saying that you should never get into a wresting match with a pig because you both get dirty and the pig likes it. That's how I feel. Thanks again for all the great advice and "right minded" thinking. I'll push forward to more significant efforts with law enforcement and the Attorney General sounds like a very good idea. *I'm still grasping to some belief that there is actual decency or morality left in the man and was hoping a gentle nudge (via the BBB) would be the wake up. No such luck*.



Good for you! It's always good to give someone the benefit of the doubt and hope for the best in people. It'd be one thing if he made apologies and tried to explain/rectify his errors. But steal your money, shut you out, shift the blame onto you making you second guess yourself at every turn, and not to own up to his behavior...that's where the claws rightfully come out. 

You may never recoup your lost $$, nor even care to at this point, but you can help others to not be swindled by him.

Best wishes, Cycling_Guy.


----------



## Kontact

Cycling_Guy said:


> Thanks everyone. You're right. I mean, of course you are right. I have no outlying desires to have the man build for me any longer. Hell, he won't even answer entirely civil E-mail. Hasn't for months. He told me that his phone and Internet service was being turned off so our only communication means would be regular mail. But, his phone still works (I've left plenty of messages) and he still has Internet. Point being just another lie. I guess I feel dirty because it all comes down to dirt. You know the saying that you should never get into a wresting match with a pig because you both get dirty and the pig likes it. That's how I feel. Thanks again for all the great advice and "right minded" thinking. I'll push forward to more significant efforts with law enforcement and the Attorney General sounds like a very good idea. I'm still grasping to some belief that there is actual decency or morality left in the man and was hoping a gentle nudge (via the BBB) would be the wake up. No such luck.


Don't be afraid to call the local cops - they don't like being ripped off either. And they may have more insight on this character.

I don't know enough about law to say anything with certainty, but I don't really follow getting the state attorney general involved. Maybe the county DA. If you want to escalate above local, that's what the Postal Inspectors are for with interstate fraud.


----------



## slegros

Kontact said:


> Don't be afraid to call the local cops - they don't like being ripped off either. And they may have more insight on this character.
> 
> I don't know enough about law to say anything with certainty, but I don't really follow getting the state attorney general involved. Maybe the county DA. If you want to escalate above local, that's what the Postal Inspectors are for with interstate fraud.


I agree, I'd talk to the local cops right away. They are free, and from the sounds of it you have a strong case. Where is the harm in filing a police report? The Police may be able to compel him to do the right thing, if not it will all be documented in the event it goes to court.


----------



## Dajianshan

The Wisconsin Atty. General's Office handles consumer protection.

Here is the link for Wisconsin:
http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dls/ConsProt/newcp.asp


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Cycling_Guy said:


> He told me that his phone and Internet service was being turned off so our only communication means would be regular mail.


The guy is telling you stuff like this to make you feel guilty!
He is a manipulator and a user. You need to stop all contact with him and let the authorities handle the situatiuon. They won't be swayed by his sob stories.

By putting the hammer on him now, you may prevent him from doing this to someone else. As long as you cut him slack, you encourage him to continue misbehaving.


----------



## Guest

Cycling_Guy:

Just some food for thought. I'm not an attorney, so don't confuse this with legal or any other type of advice. Simply my opinion and past experience:

1) I have no idea if there is a time limit on any claim you have or may make, but many financial crimes have a statute of limitations on how long you have to take legal action. Whether you pursue this or not, the irony would be too thick if you ultimately decide to take action, only to find the clock ran out yesterday. 

2) If the Postal Inspector or your State Attorney General get involved to the point of pursuing Mr. Frame Builder, they'll be spending their dime, not yours. My experience with these folks, which granted has been limited, has been that they're a good litmus test in helping me determine whether my cases had enough legal merit for me to pursue the matters privately. I gather from your posts that you're a trusting sole and may not have documented your correspondence/his commitments as well as you'd like had you known then what you know now. Again, my opinion is that these offices "cut to the chase" quickly and are generous with their thoughts on the matter. 

3) Many attorneys in our area provide an initial meeting on a significantly reduced fee basis to review your position and offer an opinion. When I get a preliminary "you probably have a case", I always ask "at what cost, realistically?" Principles are admirable, but spending $2.00 to recover a buck is not something I'm wild about, my employer even less so. 

In the end, it's your money, time, frustration, disappointment, etc. and you have to decide what's best for you. Personally, I gotta say I commend your willingness to share your story. If even 2/3rd's of it is accurate, don't feel the need to make it any better by fudging even little details. I don't believe a death penalty has ever been handed down in a civil matter before, but.................................................. 

Hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction.


----------



## brucew

I've lurked on this one a while. I can't help wondering why you'd trust a company named after a particular type of criminal.



> desperado. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desperado (accessed: June 14, 2011).
> 
> des·per·a·do
> [des-puh-rah-doh, -rey-]
> noun, plural -does, -dos.
> a bold, reckless criminal or outlaw, especially in the early days of the American West.
> Origin:
> 1600–10; probably pseudo-Spanish alteration of desperate (as noun, now obsolete), in same sense


Would you buy a bike from Con Man Bicycles? Or Rapist Bicycles? Or Armed Robbery Bicycles?

So what makes Desperado a good name to buy from? And what makes you think you'll recover anything from them?


----------



## ukbloke

brucew said:


> I've lurked on this one a while. I can't help wondering why you'd trust a company named after a particular type of criminal.


_
*Desperado*, why don't you come to your senses?
You been out ridin' fences for so long now
Oh, you're a hard one but I know that you got your reasons
These things that are pleasin' you can hurt you somehow._


----------



## T K

What? I love my custom ti frame from "Date Rape Cycles"!
So, is this guy in jail yet?


----------



## weiwentg

Cycling_Guy said:


> Small update. I wrote the Wisconsin BBB. They accepted my complaint, responded and forwarded the complaint to Laurence Gust (Desperado Cycles). So far, he has ignored the first request for response and has been given a second notice. If he does not respond to that one I will be contacted by the BBB for the next step. There are other agencies, also. Some were posted here. So, I'm working the process. It's odd but emotionally I seem to bounce back and forth between being angry at him and feeling like a dirtbag myself. ARGH.


You're an idiot. Your first call should have been to the AG or local police, or to the USPS mail fraud division. There's no need for any guilt here. Regardless of whether or not you were unwise to trust him in the first place (you were), he's *still committed a crime and he should pay*.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Update. I contacted the local authorities in Mr. Gust's area, had a good, 10 minute conversation where much information was taken and they are sending out an investigator today and will provide me an update via E-mail within 24 hours. I was also told I could call back for an update. I can only imagine what he is going to say to them but at least it will be documented. My thanks to all of you, again. I also plan to move forward with the other ideas presented but believe a measured approach is best as it will show ongoing attempts to get the man to behave in an upright manner and show appropriate and necessary escalation if it comes to that.

I had to go out to his website to provide his phone number and had to control the urge to wretch when I seen his site stating "If you have been following this web site for a while you have noticed that I have not spent any time updating. Well, that is because the last 2 years have been the best for business for the last 15." That's me he is talking about. We've been actively working my projects exclusively for almost 23 months now. He actually told me the same thing. He also told me back in December that over the previous year the only other business he had received was a single request for parts from somewhere in Europe but the transaction never took place because the customer balked at paying him $50 per hour to fill out the required postal paperwork required to ship the goods. At that point he didn't seem concerned about the lost business.


----------



## LookDave

Cycling_Guy said:


> Well, that is because the last 2 years have been the best for business for the last 15." That's me he is talking about. We've been actively working my projects exclusively for almost 23 months now. He actually told me the same thing. He also told me back in December that over the previous year the only other business he had received was a single request for parts from somewhere in Europe but the transaction never took place because the customer balked at paying him $50 per hour to fill out the required postal paperwork required to ship the goods. At that point he didn't seem concerned about the lost business.


If this turns into a full investigation, don't be surprised if you find you are only one of several people he's told were his "only" business and that he was working on stuff for "exclusively". Convincing multiple people to believe they are getting individual attention and exclusive service, or that each "customer" is the only thing standing financially between the scam artist and the poor house, is a classic part of the scam "business".

At this point, wouldn't believe anything said by this guy other than "Guilty, Your Honor" at an arraignment.


----------



## T K

Good job, keep his feet to the fire!


----------



## notoriousdjw

Cycling_Guy said:


> Hell, he won't even answer entirely civil E-mail. Hasn't for months. He told me that his phone and Internet service was being turned off so our only communication means would be regular mail. But, his phone still works (I've left plenty of messages) and he still has Internet. Point being just another lie.


At least he can still post about this situation on Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/people/Jalon-Hawk/100001036921590?sk=wall


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

notoriousdjw said:


> At least he can still post about this situation on Facebook:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/people/Jalon-Hawk/100001036921590?sk=wall



Wowza....

Pasted quote from his FB site:

*Currently I am trying to get my life as simple as I can. My cost of living is now down to $150 a month and I am building a wind turban tower to help.*

(we now know where Cycling_Guy's thousands of $$ went).

What would a tower built of turbans look like, anyway?


----------



## the_don

Just had a look at his Facebook. 

Says the client is from Japan, and that the client was trying to steal from him. 

If what you say is true, then hopefully the fuzz will help.


----------



## T K

Wow! Freakin', Wow!!!!! That face book page is nuts. I don't think I would have advanced this guy 10 bucks to mow my lawn. Good lord!


----------



## Cycling_Guy

I spoke with the investigator who went to Desperado Cycles and talked to Laurence Gust (Jalon Hawk). He had some forward moving suggestions that I will follow.


----------



## T K

Keep it up. Don't let that guy get away with this crap!


----------



## Cinelli 82220

T K said:


> Wow! Freakin', Wow!!!!! That face book page is nuts. I don't think I would have advanced this guy 10 bucks to mow my lawn. Good lord!



He's what you'd see in a casting call for a B movie about trailer parks.


----------



## SystemShock

Cinelli 82220 said:


> He's what you'd see in a casting call for a B movie about trailer parks.


+1. And some guy named Larry renaming himself "Jalon Hawk" smacks of more than a little desperation. Judging from that and his persona in general, the guy doesn't really want to build bikes, he wants to be a movie star or rock star.

Which is fine I guess, but folks with such personalities aren't exactly known for putting their nose to the grindstone and cranking out labor-intensive, sweat-every-detail products... which is exactly what a good custom frame is.

For something like this, I'd much rather give my money to the guy who _isn't_ trying so very hard to create a cult of personality around himself. And who has one helluva long and proven track record. 

After reading this thread, guys like Strong and Kirk are looking better and better.
.


----------



## T K

SystemShock said:


> After reading this thread, guys like Strong and Kirk are looking better and better.
> .


After reading this thread "Pride" is looking better.


----------



## burgrat

Cycling_Guy said:


> I spoke with the investigator who went to Desperado Cycles and talked to Laurence Gust (Jalon Hawk). He had some forward moving suggestions that I will follow.


Based on this thread and his Facebook page, I'm visualizing the situation escalating into the guy being holed up in his compound and ATF agents being called in! The guy sounds nuts and should be out of business.


----------



## kleinmantra

good luck with this hopefully it is made right


----------



## SystemShock

T K said:


> After reading this thread "Pride" is looking better.



 :lol: :thumbsup:
.


----------



## trunkz22

From reading all of these threads, I'm definitely going to a builder who has much better customer service for my first custom bike =x. I hope you have good luck with resolve your issue Cycling_Guy. 

I can see you are a nice dude who was getting taken advantage of, but enough is enough and send the dogs on this jerk.


----------



## Dajianshan

I don't live in N. America, so I went with a trusted builder with a stellar reputation for quality and interpretation of my riding style and needs. I didn't want to leave much to chance and I worked with a great shop that sized me and set me up. There was always someone I could talk to face to face. 

Moreover, the local rep hustled the order because I was a "foreign customer". 

Good Luck!


----------



## vo2maxcarbon

3 hours easily killed reading this thread and then digging around Jalon's site. Wow what and adventure and I don't ever spend time here. Glad I caught this one.


----------



## kvo

*-*

Get a lawyer, that's insane


----------



## RJP Diver

Cycling_Guy said:


> 22 months and over $14,500 later (yes, I'm an idiot) all I've received are excuses,


"A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place..."

G. Gekko


----------



## Dajianshan

Me thinks the lawyer wisely advised the OP to keep matters off a public forum until everything is resolved.


----------



## HMBAtrail

Reading through threads like this really bum me out. There are so many builders out there doing it the right way and operating in an ethical and above board manner. I hope no one thinks that the typical small builder operates in any other way.

Things happen. Delays occur. Road blocks get thrown up. The best way for a builder to handle situations like this is to be up front with the customer and seek a resolution before things get out of hand. Ignoring a problem in hopes it goes away is never a proper solution.

I genuinely hope that this whole affair gets resolved. 

For the record, I am not implying that Desperado is automatically at fault. I have no idea if that is the case or not. I just don't want people to read this and think, "another reason for me to not hire a custom builder".


----------



## atpjunkie

well one of his job descriptions is "Life Teacher"
I think we've all learned something here
I'd probably just go break his legs


----------



## Cycling_Guy

atpjunkie said:


> well one of his job descriptions is "Life Teacher"
> I think we've all learned something here
> I'd probably just go break his legs


Non no. This mentality is not the answer. We are responsible for actions not results. For example, I chose to make my circumstances public as I felt others should be aware of what happened to me so they can put it on the scales when they make a decision to have custom work done. Someone might very well decide to use Desperado Cycles despite my story. This is neither here nor there for me. I've been taken advantage of and felt it important to let other know. That's the action. The results are out of my hands. As for my situation, I'm taking what I believe to be the proper steps. So many here were instrumental in helping me make the proper decisions. How will this end? I don't know. I have to keep walking the dog. Just because one man has decided to crawl does not keep the rest of us from walking tall.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

atpjunkie said:


> *well one of his job descriptions is "Life Teacher"*I think we've all learned something here
> I'd probably just go break his legs



He's pretty much locked everything up on his FB page now. 

Might be one of the smarter things he's done.


----------



## atpjunkie

*I understand that*



Cycling_Guy said:


> Non no. This mentality is not the answer. We are responsible for actions not results. For example, I chose to make my circumstances public as I felt others should be aware of what happened to me so they can put it on the scales when they make a decision to have custom work done. Someone might very well decide to use Desperado Cycles despite my story. This is neither here nor there for me. I've been taken advantage of and felt it important to let other know. That's the action. The results are out of my hands. As for my situation, I'm taking what I believe to be the proper steps. So many here were instrumental in helping me make the proper decisions. How will this end? I don't know. I have to keep walking the dog. Just because one man has decided to crawl does not keep the rest of us from walking tall.


and I appreciate what you have done

here are your options:
Have te guy arrested for fraud as he has stolen thousands of dollars from you. This is not petty theft.
That is about as much satisfaction as you are going get
My guess is he doesn't have the $ to pay you if and when you win a lawsuit

So you are out a few $1000 dollars, what will give you satisfaction? Seeing him go to jail?

Sorry, that wouldn't quench my fire, I'd feel better getting my retribution myself.

If he's gonna treat you like a savings and loan, then you should start acting like Big Donny down on the corner. (Just my opinion)


----------



## T K

atpjunkie said:


> If he's gonna treat you like a savings and loan, then you should start acting like Big Donny down on the corner. (Just my opinion)


Jalon Hawk sleeps with the fishes!


----------



## Henry Porter

atpjunkie said:


> and I appreciate what you have done
> 
> here are your options:
> Have te guy arrested for fraud as he has stolen thousands of dollars from you. This is not petty theft.
> That is about as much satisfaction as you are going get
> My guess is he doesn't have the $ to pay you if and when you win a lawsuit
> 
> So you are out a few $1000 dollars, what will give you satisfaction? Seeing him go to jail?
> 
> Sorry, that wouldn't quench my fire, I'd feel better getting my retribution myself.
> 
> If he's gonna treat you like a savings and loan, then you should start acting like Big Donny down on the corner. (Just my opinion)


His facebook account looked like he owned some land. I would think he could get his money back.


----------



## Sasquatch

Is Jalon Hawk the Unabomber?


----------



## atpjunkie

*well we all*



Henry Porter said:


> His facebook account looked like he owned some land. I would think he could get his money back.


know Facebook is the place to get our facts.....

well check his assets first 
have arrested, sue

14 frigging grand..........


----------



## Marcos_E

Any update on this situation? Seeing the Pride thread on the front page reminded me of this one. I really hope you've been able to rectify it.


----------



## the_don

I have been having an email conversation with this desperado guy for the past 2 weeks or so on Facebook. 

I just asked him for his side of the story as I had seen accusations about him on the Internet and if he would like a chance to defend himself against them. 

He has been rambling on that the client "Made his bed, and now has to sleep in it" and made some vague claims that he has done the work, and that he worked for 8 months with no pay. 

I think he's guilty, he still hasn't made a clear case of what happened. He said the buyer lives in japan too


----------



## jgi27

14.5K? You can't be serious!!!!  

sorry... but good luck. I feel sad reading this


----------



## SystemShock

the_don said:


> I have been having an email conversation with this desperado guy for the past 2 weeks or so on Facebook.
> 
> I just asked him for his side of the story as I had seen accusations about him on the Internet and if he would like a chance to defend himself against them.
> 
> He has been rambling on that the client "Made his bed, and now has to sleep in it" and made some vague claims that he has done the work, and that he worked for 8 months with no pay.
> 
> I think he's guilty, he still hasn't made a clear case of what happened. He said the buyer lives in japan too



I just wanna know what kind of custom frame allegedly takes 8 months of labor and $14,500 to make.

What is it made out of, diamonds? :skep:
.


----------



## Purt

SystemShock said:


> I just wanna know what kind of custom frame allegedly takes 8 months of labor and $14,500 to make.
> 
> What is it made out of, diamonds? :skep:
> .


He's been through this:



Cycling_Guy said:


> Obviously, it would be difficult to effectively recount all of the details of the past 22 months. But, the $14,600 actually went to build one complete bike (9k), one frame (3.7k) and the rest went to an old Schwinn Balooner frame that was going to be reconditioned.


----------



## allez se

Cycling guy never actually said what he is going to do, or has done. He said he made contact with the BBB and local authorities. Doesn't sound like he is actually pursuing his money or bikes. Hmmm. Something smells fishy.


----------



## SystemShock

Purt said:


> He's been through this:



Sorry, but this is an old thread, and it's 130 posts long. I don't remember 'em all. :thumbsup:
.


----------



## FeedTheJoe

allez se said:


> Cycling guy never actually said what he is going to do, or has done. He said he made contact with the BBB and local authorities. Doesn't sound like he is actually pursuing his money or bikes. Hmmm. Something smells fishy.


My guess is that he is proceeding with litigation and cannot post public updates regarding it.


----------



## saltydog

this guys a jerk. he posted this thread on his website.
http://desperadocycles.com/


----------



## Dajianshan

Not very professional and not much of a business owner. He seems to be blaming the client for a bunch of costs he accrued that were not a part of the original agreement and liabilities he accepted when he accepted the job. If I am a mechanic and I break a wrench fixing a customer's car... I don't charge the customer for the broken wrench. This really comes down to basic contract law. What was agreed upon in the contract and how did each party honor their agreement? If you sign a bad contract... then you can't simply change the terms to better suit your every whim. I am still unclear what, if anything, Desperado actually produced for the client. I am still unclear what kind of agreement was negotiated for cost overruns. Usually, a company that runs over budget has to eat their losses.

I would also like to say that it is very unprofessional of Desperado to post that link on his website. 

A manufacturer or artist (it seems the builder considers himself more of an artiste) has their opportunity to speak through their products (works) and their service. Once the product is offered to the public, the manufacturer or artist has his final word and really relinquishes his control over how that product or service is received. If I make a stinker of a movie, I can't run around to every audience and explain myself and my intentions. The best thing for Desperado to do is to somehow settle with the client through court or arbitration, and then move on by taking the steps to insure his products and services are appreciated to the degree he desires. If he is as good as he says he is and the service is as reasonable as he claims... then Desperado should have nothing to worry about as his reputation among satisfied customers will carry him above this one dissatisfied customer.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

I followed the links out to the Desperado site and read what is there. Mr. Gust is recreating the past with artistic flair. I could post up a number of E-mails from Mr. Gust where he states that he agreed to do my work at a flat rate, has been paid in full for all products and labor and spent a large portion of my parts money to live on as opposed to purchasing parts that he invoiced me for. Now, had Mr. Gust contacted me as he was working and told me things were running over I assure you we would have worked something out. It was only after he finished a 6 month long contiguous break and ran out of my money that he fabricated the amount of work he had done, decided that I owed him an additional 16K and we would move from the flat rate that I was paid in full for to a $50 per hour mode. I repeatedly asked how much work was left to do and was repeatedly told that he would not give work hours left to finish the project nor give me any timeline to completion. In other words, I was to open my wallet and he would tell me when if ever it was to be closed. Since March, he has proven himself to be a greatly reduced individual. Scams, manipulations, lies and deceits join reprehensible business practices and lack of work ethic as the cumulative that is Laurence B. Gust. .


----------



## Cycling_Guy

I wanted to say that on the Desperado website Mr. Gust states that there is a frame building organization that he says I've angered, etc. While I could be wrong, by posting it on his website, I take that to mean this group has some influence with Mr. Gust. This could be a very good thing. Clearly, I want to bring this whole thing to a reasonable end and be done with it. If this group is willing to arbitrate our situation in anyway I welcome their input. Mr. Gust can certainly provide my contact information. If this group is open to listen to honest representation of the circumstances and help to bring the situation to a reasonable end I am very open to this.


----------



## Henry Porter

Cycling_Guy said:


> I wanted to say that on the Desperado website Mr. Gust states that there is a frame building organization that he says I've angered, etc. While I could be wrong, by posting it on his website, I take that to mean this group has some influence with Mr. Gust. This could be a very good thing. Clearly, I want to bring this whole thing to a reasonable end and be done with it. If this group is willing to arbitrate our situation in anyway I welcome their input. Mr. Gust can certainly provide my contact information. If this group is open to listen to honest representation of the circumstances and help to bring the situation to a reasonable end I am very open to this.


Why are you looking to some professional organization to arbitrate this? If things are as you say, you should be able to lawyer up on this.

Both sides of this argument grow increasingly strange to me.


----------



## atwabn

Just this guy's testimonial page makes me wonder. You couldn't get a testimonial with understandable English. I consider myself fluent in "slack-jaw-yokel" but I have no idea what is trying to be said?

http://desperadocycles.com/Custom_Frames_And_Bicycles.html


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Henry Porter said:


> Why are you looking to some professional organization to arbitrate this? If things are as you say, you should be able to lawyer up on this.
> 
> Both sides of this argument grow increasingly strange to me.


Please do not misunderstand me. You are correct. What I'm talking about is remaining open to a more amenable solution. It is especially when we have been wronged that we should remain open. That does not mean we simply allow ourselves to be taken advantage of but rather we ourselves do not become righteously indignant and rigid. There is no good end to that mentality. We see it all the time in the news. Some person or group is wronged and then no matter what they say or do it is justified under the cloth of self righteousness. That simply will not do. Walking the walk isn't always easy. But, it makes all the difference.

Thank you very much for your input. It let me look in the mirror and remind myself.


----------



## Dajianshan

If you have that kind of money to throw away on bikes then you could surely scrape up a few dollars for a good lawyer. 

Unless you have an update from a lawsuit or an arbitrated settlement, I figure this thread should stop here.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Dajianshan said:


> If you have that kind of money to throw away on bikes then you could surely scrape up a few dollars for a good lawyer.
> 
> Unless you have an update from a lawsuit or an arbitrated settlement, I figure this thread should stop here.


Things are in motion. I suppose nothing happens as fast as any of us would like.


----------



## Dajianshan

That sounds like what I tell my wife when I haven't started a pressing, unpleasant chore that I have been putting off. 

What is in motion?

What have you done beyond your direct contact with Desperado Cycles and bike forums? 

Until you take action to another level you are stuck at the point of "thinkin' about it." 

Could you list in bullet points your course of action and intended action?


----------



## slegros

Henry Porter said:


> Why are you looking to some professional organization to arbitrate this? If things are as you say, you should be able to lawyer up on this.
> 
> Both sides of this argument grow increasingly strange to me.


It seems that one thing is not in dispute: that the OP has paid Desperado a very large sum of money for products/services that have yet to be delivered.

It also seems that Desperado feels he's owed far more than the $14,000 already paid for additional custom work over and above what was originally requested. This is where it breaks down for me. How in ANY WAY is that type of price justified for a steel bike no matter how good the craftsmanship and parts spec?


----------



## Henry Porter

slegros said:


> It seems that one thing is not in dispute: that the OP has paid Desperado a very large sum of money for products/services that have yet to be delivered.
> 
> It also seems that Desperado feels he's owed far more than the $14,000 already paid for additional custom work over and above what was originally requested. This is where it breaks down for me. How in ANY WAY is that type of price justified for a steel bike no matter how good the craftsmanship and parts spec?


I don't even know about that. I haven't ruled out that cycling guy is this Hawk fellow on some bizarre marketing strategy. The website is bizarre as is this story. It makes no sense from either side.


----------



## FatTireFred

Dajianshan said:


> That sounds like what I tell my wife when I haven't started a pressing, unpleasant chore that I have been putting off.
> 
> What is in motion?
> 
> What have you done beyond your direct contact with Desperado Cycles and bike forums?
> 
> Until you take action to another level you are stuck at the point of "thinkin' about it."
> 
> Could you list in bullet points your course of action and intended action?




it is not always wise to show your cards before the game is done...


----------



## Scooper

FatTireFred said:


> it is not always wise to show your cards before the game is done...


+1

As the plaintiff in a civil suit now before the U.S. Supreme Court, I can tell you that my attorneys have severely chastised me for making what I thought were benign public comments. The comments I made were factual based on court records in the public domain and undisputed by either party. My lawyers bluntly told me, "Keep your trap shut until after the briefs are filed, the oral arguments heard, and the Supreme Court has ruled."


----------



## T K

I just can't tell if the OP is a calm, better man than us, with a plan, or just a passive boob.


----------



## nightfend

Henry Porter said:


> I don't even know about that. I haven't ruled out that cycling guy is this Hawk fellow on some bizarre marketing strategy. The website is bizarre as is this story. It makes no sense from either side.


I have thought the same thing since early on. The thread is still entertaining though, even if it is all fake.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Dajianshan said:


> If you have that kind of money to throw away on bikes then you could surely scrape up a few dollars for a good lawyer.
> 
> Unless you have an update from a lawsuit or an arbitrated settlement, I figure this thread should stop here.


I've actually avoided responding to the "money to blow" type of statements. But, maybe it's time to fully express how I got here. I'm a regular guy. 45 years old, 3 children with all the typical responsibilities. I work for a living. I like to think I make reasonable money but I do not work because I want to - I work because I have to. I'm a life long cyclist. I've never been a racer of any sort although I've entered events. Making circles is just something that makes me happy. Touring is my favorite thing to do. Anyway, a few years ago I reached a point where I was in a position to comfortably order a few custom bikes. I got there by saving for years. I cut corners, worked extra, sometimes did less, etc.. All the things you do when you have a goal in mind. As Mr. Gust has stated I live in Japan. When it came time for me to get serios about building a few custom dreams my friends implored me to do so with a builder in Japan. But, given the economy, I decided my money was going to go to the home team. The US was where I was going to have my dreams built. So, I started reserching. There are some very fine names out there. I came across the Desperado website at one point and was taken in by the corkiness of it. It seemed right somehow. So, I initiated the relationship and things moved forward. I was always clear that I wanted to work with a custom builder because I wanted custom products. Not just something fitted to me but truly custom. There was plenty of discussions, plenty of changes and in short a lot of interface. Times were good. I never once blinked an eye when costs were quoted. Things cost what they cost. Here comes the money. Time went on. A number of timelines were established and blown. I took it in stride. Artistic weirdness is what I told myself. Money was a constant topic. At first, Mr. Gust was very proud of his down to earth way of living. Over time, some of the seams started to show. Living off of government assistance, constant complaints about how people who knew him were not helping him do this or that or giving him this or that. I made adjustments. I wanted more than one project done so paid it forward. Despite the time lags I simply never thought I was being taken. Well, then he took a solid 6 month break on me. There were other breaks that lasted as long as a few months but the 6 month long one chapped me. Still, I kept things light and easy. In March, I was polite but firm that I wanted an immovable finish date for our first project. That was when the bottom fell out. He told me he had spent thousands of my dollars to live on and therefore did not have the parts to finish the work, told me that he had no incentive to work at all because I sent him no Christmas bonus (he was 3 months into his break at that point) and despite us having literally dozens of conversations over the past months that it is now he has decided to tell me that I owe him 16k for back labor (one of the constants in our relationship was I approved the spending of my money in advance so that is why I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that his additional labor is fabricated) and that we are now moving to a $50 per hour mode for all things to include E-mail and telephone conversations. I lost track of how many times I asked how much more work was left to be done and how many times he told me that as a "master" he would not be held to such standards. That is how I got here. So please, I ask you to not say things like "Well, if you've got that type of cash to blow". I don't. Just like you, I work for my money.


----------



## Dajianshan

*Simplify It In Bullet Points: What steps have you taken thus far to resolve this situation? 
What were the results in corresponding bullet points or italics.

Actions and Results:
•	Took the case on line to bicycle forums:*
_*Raised the issue and received various responses.
*Pissed off builder. Links posted to builder’s website. _

*•	Followed up on forum responses:*
_*Confused a lot of people and received varying levels of sympathy, advice, scorn and disbelief. _
_*Contributed little new information to finding a solution._


----------



## qatarbhoy

The Desperado website makes the ones for fraudulent Indonesian bike dealers look good.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

OK. I feel confident that if we were face to face you would not speak to me like this. We might see things differently but you would not be insolent. There really is no reason for you take such a tact.


----------



## Dajianshan

I am trying to make it as simple as possible for you to explain to this forum what action you have taken beyond presenting your story to an internet forum. It is pretty simple, really. Call me insolent, but without getting into your reasoning, which is your own business, what steps have you taken and what results have you achieved. Pretty simple. No reason to be evasive about it. Providing a simple, straight forward, bullet point sequence of actions and results would actually provide a service to these forums in giving readers valuable information in how to handle a similar situation. You could skip over the emotional appeals, the rationale, the havering over value.... That really doesn't matter to anyone and personally I don't care how much or little you paid for whatever you thought you were getting. That is your own business.

What I am getting at is that the sympathy party is now over and you should start using this space to detail the progression of how you are handling the matter in the search for a solution. See how infopete did it. He posted regular updates whenever a new resolution was floated and how he handled it. That kind of info is actually important to a lot of folks at these forums. What did the lawyer say? What did his lawyer say? What is taking so much time? Why can't you share with everyone your progress in finding a suitable resolution? 

Lots of people have donated their time to you in reading your account and giving you some sound advice and you have given no real indication of having taken it. Why? These are all valid questions for those of us who cared enough to help.

I apologize for curtly trying to cut through the nonsense that doesn't really matter, but you don't seem to be sharing any progress if there is any.


----------



## JustTooBig

Dajianshan said:


> ........ That kind of info is actually important to a lot of folks at these forums. *What did the lawyer say?* What did his lawyer say? What is taking so much time? Why can't you share with everyone your progress in finding a suitable resolution?
> 
> .........
> 
> I apologize for curtly trying to cut through the nonsense that doesn't really matter, but you don't seem to be sharing any progress if there is any.


I'm interested to know how this will unfold also. I'd like to know that the scammer finally got what he had coming. That being said, it's entirely possible that the OP has been advised by council to refrain from discussing details on an internet forum. You kind of sound like you believe that the OP owes the forum some kind of explanation(s).


----------



## Dajianshan

I'm with you. Did he seek legal council. If he can't discuss it then explain. The only thing the OP is adding is rehashing the same old story with irrelevant details about how he got in this mess. How it happened doesn't matter at this point. How it is being resolved would be something more interesting to read about.


----------



## heathb

Well to start with I just spit my rice dinner all over my monitor laughing so hard at the picture of this "builder" on his facebook page. 

Mr. Desperado is the spitten image of the dirt bags that my town is full of. Whenever a man comments that he's getting his cost of living down to $150 a month, you can bet if he's living in the States, he ain't interested in working at all. 

Personally I wouldn't higher a lawyer. I'd rather have the sweet satisfaction of giving these greasy dirt bag a good old fashion beat down.


----------



## GirchyGirchy

Henry Porter said:


> I don't even know about that. I haven't ruled out that cycling guy is this Hawk fellow on some bizarre marketing strategy. The website is bizarre as is this story. It makes no sense from either side.


No kidding...things just aren't adding up. I thought the Pride thread was wild, but it was nothing compared to this.


----------



## nightfend

I still can't wrap my head around why anyone would buy a bike from someone that is unknown, has never shown his product at any bike shows, and then asks for a price well beyond the best custom builders out there. For 16K, the OP could have had 4 custom bikes made by a reputable builder.

Such a waste.


----------



## Jetmugg

United States Postal Inspectors are Federal agents. When they go to visit someone for a fraud investigation, these guys are deadly serious, strictly business, and will not be BS-ed. I know a couple of guys who have been / are USPS Inspectors. They carry the full weight of the US Federal Govt Law Enforcement. If they believe that mail fraud has taken place, the USPS will investigate fully. As someone posted earlier, that is the reason for their existence.

If you haven't already contacted the USPS, do so without delay. It will not cost you a penny. The US taxpayers will pick up the bill for their services.


----------



## stickney

I'm impressed the copyright on his website says 1997. 

I would have thought 1994-95.


----------



## Pirx

nightfend said:


> For 16K, the OP could have had 4 custom bikes made by a reputable builder.


As a matter of fact, the business between the OP and this builder involved three custom bikes.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Jetmugg said:


> If you haven't already contacted the USPS, do so without delay.


He won't.

I really think Cycling Guy is more interested in complaining about his situation than resolving it. He's frustrated and wants to vent, but he doesn't like confrontation or responsibility. He sounds very passive and unmotivated. Although he claims to have mouths to feed and needs to work for his money, he has little common sense re: investing thousands of dollars in a builder with no references.

Frankly, as a father, I wonder what kind of example he is setting for his children. He is letting himself be robbed of enough cash to put one of those children through a year of university. But he seems uninterested in resolving the situation or recovering the money.
This tells the children that if others steal from you, you should be passive and accept it. I would prefer my children to have a bit more self-esteem and pride than to let someone walk all over them.

It is possible that LE or lawyers have been engaged, and the OP can no longer provide details of resolution. But if true, he could have stated it. His synopsis suggests he is not bound by any non-disclosure advice. So I assume he has still done nothing except feel sorry for himself.

By the way, Cycling Guy, don't call Dajianshan "insolent". He is being frank and honest. You are being neither. I think you need some kind of professional counselling more than you need a bicycle. There is something seriously wrong with you if you allow this situation to continue.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Dajianshan said:


> bullet point sequence of actions


1. Wallow in self pity.
2. Ignore advice.
3. Repeat step 1.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Dajianshan said:


> I'm with you. Did he seek legal council. If he can't discuss it then explain. The only thing the OP is adding is rehashing the same old story with irrelevant details about how he got in this mess. How it happened doesn't matter at this point. How it is being resolved would be something more interesting to read about.


Thank you.

Contacted BBB:
While I believe this is a positive step it is worth knowing that the BBB is a neutral organization. They are essentially a database. They provided me with information to state and federal organizations they felt could be of assistance.

Wrote and called local law enforcement:
Local law enforcement is involved. At the moment I need to leave it at that but I indeed validate this as a strong, appropriate step.

Spoke with a lawyer:
Very good as a means of understanding the best way to proceed, what works and what is unlikely to work. One thing I can definately pass on to anyone looking to have custom work done is to understand what you are doing is entering into a personal service agreement. This type of contract is enormously beneficial to the contractor if not clearly or appropriately defined. You will want a professionally created contract. Spending this money up front is one of the smartest things you can do.

Other things in motion.....

My sincere thanks to all who are offering forward moving advice. Your advice is both being taken and acted upon.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Frankly, as a father, I wonder what kind of example he is setting for his children. He is letting himself be robbed of enough cash to put one of those children through a year of university. But he seems uninterested in resolving the situation or recovering the money.
> This tells the children that if others steal from you, you should be passive and accept it. I would prefer my children to have a bit more self-esteem and pride than to let someone walk all over them.


Say what you like about me. I'm setting myself up for it. But, to reference my children - MY CHILDREN - is cheap, low-brow and nothing short of disgusting. How dare you.


----------



## the_don

Does anyone else feel like Jaylo Hork is posting in here and attacking the OP?

My advise to the OP would be to go follow through with cops and lawyer. Don't post about it here, until you have an update. We are all hoping u get your cash back!


----------



## qatarbhoy

the_don said:


> Does anyone else feel like Jaylo Hork is posting in here and attacking the OP?


Fine, yo' kids reckon yer so smart but yo' kin all git off mah lan' eff'n yo' won't pay fo' all these fine bikes I've been so busy makin' fo' yo'! Fry mah hide! Yo'd better watch out o' I'll use mah cestom-built double-barrelled shotguns on yer lily-white asses, yo' hear! NOw git!


----------



## steelrpm

Cinelli 82220 said:


> He won't.
> 
> I really think Cycling Guy is more interested in complaining about his situation than resolving it. He's frustrated and wants to vent, but he doesn't like confrontation or responsibility. He sounds very passive and unmotivated. Although he claims to have mouths to feed and needs to work for his money, he has little common sense re: investing thousands of dollars in a builder with no references.


I've been following this thread in disbelief and you reminded me of something. I don't mean to derail the thread but the attitude you mention is familiar to me. My girlfriend's grandfather used to visit the U.K. fairly regularly and he would hire the same driver (cabbie) every time. This cabbie happened to drive a vintage vehicle of some sorts - make and model irrelevant - that her grandfather fell in love with. He ended up offering much more than the true value because he felt, for whatever reason, obligated to the cabbie. Shipping overseas, taxes, etc. were to be handled by the proprietor (why it was assumed this man would be capable of handling the transaction is beyond me). Long story short, car never delivered, cabbie never approached again by the grandfather due to some unknown motivation. 

Fast forward to now. My g/f's father owns a lake house that has two property encroachments that could easily end up being liability issues and/or be lost due to adverse possession, not to mention obvious clouds to the title that will end up costing someone down the line a chunk of cash to resolve. His family has tried to bring up the issue to him on many occasions and he just waves them off with reasoning that he doesn't want to offend anyone. 

I'm not making any assertions as to the character of the OP but the quoted post seemed all too familiar.


----------



## Henry Porter

steelrpm said:


> I've been following this thread in disbelief and you reminded me of something. I don't mean to derail the thread but the attitude you mention is familiar to me. My girlfriend's grandfather used to visit the U.K. fairly regularly and he would hire the same driver (cabbie) every time. This cabbie happened to drive a vintage vehicle of some sorts - make and model irrelevant - that her grandfather fell in love with. He ended up offering much more than the true value because he felt, for whatever reason, obligated to the cabbie. Shipping overseas, taxes, etc. were to be handled by the proprietor (why it was assumed this man would be capable of handling the transaction is beyond me). Long story short, car never delivered, cabbie never approached again by the grandfather due to some unknown motivation.
> 
> Fast forward to now. My g/f's father owns a lake house that has two property encroachments that could easily end up being liability issues and/or be lost due to adverse possession, not to mention obvious clouds to the title that will end up costing someone down the line a chunk of cash to resolve. His family has tried to bring up the issue to him on many occasions and he just waves them off with reasoning that he doesn't want to offend anyone.
> 
> I'm not making any assertions as to the character of the OP but the quoted post seemed all too familiar.


Yep.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Cycling_Guy said:


> How dare you.


I said nothing demeaning about your children. Now you are exploiting them to get even more pity. How dare you. Pot, meet kettle. 

Welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## ms6073

Cycling_Guy said:


> Contacted BBB:
> While I believe this is a positive step it is worth knowing that the BBB is a neutral organization.


I applaud your actions - sounds like an good step-by-step approach. The reason I quoted the text above, and this is probably way off topic, but I wanted to voice my complete disdain for the Better Business Bureau especially when you keep in mind that the BBB is not a government-run organization but rather a non-profit that solicits 'subscription' or 'membership' donations from businesses upon which it reports. Since businesses are the BBB's primary source of funds - although they don't report income but that is a different rant - when a consumer files a complaint, he/she is basically complaining about one of their customers (aka primary source of income) which seems like a conflict of interest to me!


----------



## Henry Porter

ms6073 said:


> I applaud your actions - sounds like an good step-by-step approach. The reason I quoted the text above, and this is probably way off topic, but I wanted to voice my complete disdain for the Better Business Bureau especially when you keep in mind that the BBB is not a government-run organization but rather a non-profit that solicits 'subscription' or 'membership' donations from businesses upon which it reports. Since businesses are the BBB's primary source of funds - although they don't report income but that is a different rant - when a consumer files a complaint, he/she is basically complaining about one of their customers (aka primary source of income) which seems like a conflict of interest to me!


Yeah, they are not worth the time.


----------



## Camilo

Cycling_Guy said:


> I've actually avoided responding to the "money to blow" type of statements. But, maybe it's time to fully express how I got here. I'm a regular guy. 45 years old, 3 children with all the typical responsibilities. I work for a living. I like to think I make reasonable money but I do not work because I want to - I work because I have to. I'm a life long cyclist. I've never been a racer of any sort although I've entered events. Making circles is just something that makes me happy. Touring is my favorite thing to do. Anyway, a few years ago I reached a point where I was in a position to comfortably order a few custom bikes. I got there by saving for years. I cut corners, worked extra, sometimes did less, etc.. All the things you do when you have a goal in mind. As Mr. Gust has stated I live in Japan. When it came time for me to get serios about building a few custom dreams my friends implored me to do so with a builder in Japan. But, given the economy, I decided my money was going to go to the home team. The US was where I was going to have my dreams built. So, I started reserching. There are some very fine names out there. I came across the Desperado website at one point and was taken in by the corkiness of it. It seemed right somehow. So, I initiated the relationship and things moved forward. I was always clear that I wanted to work with a custom builder because I wanted custom products. Not just something fitted to me but truly custom. There was plenty of discussions, plenty of changes and in short a lot of interface. Times were good. I never once blinked an eye when costs were quoted. Things cost what they cost. Here comes the money. Time went on. A number of timelines were established and blown. I took it in stride. Artistic weirdness is what I told myself. Money was a constant topic. At first, Mr. Gust was very proud of his down to earth way of living. Over time, some of the seams started to show. Living off of government assistance, constant complaints about how people who knew him were not helping him do this or that or giving him this or that. I made adjustments. I wanted more than one project done so paid it forward. Despite the time lags I simply never thought I was being taken. Well, then he took a solid 6 month break on me. There were other breaks that lasted as long as a few months but the 6 month long one chapped me. Still, I kept things light and easy. In March, I was polite but firm that I wanted an immovable finish date for our first project. That was when the bottom fell out. He told me he had spent thousands of my dollars to live on and therefore did not have the parts to finish the work, told me that he had no incentive to work at all because I sent him no Christmas bonus (he was 3 months into his break at that point) and despite us having literally dozens of conversations over the past months that it is now he has decided to tell me that I owe him 16k for back labor (one of the constants in our relationship was I approved the spending of my money in advance so that is why I know beyond the shadow of any doubt that his additional labor is fabricated) and that we are now moving to a $50 per hour mode for all things to include E-mail and telephone conversations. I lost track of how many times I asked how much more work was left to be done and how many times he told me that as a "master" he would not be held to such standards. That is how I got here. So please, I ask you to not say things like "Well, if you've got that type of cash to blow". I don't. Just like you, I work for my money.


I tend to be on your side on this, but I feel you're just being a victim to a certain extent. BUT, for the love of god, please learn to write in paragraphs!!!


----------



## Dajianshan

I am sympathetic to the extent that Desperado seems to have misappropriated funds, and seems to view this relationship as one between employer and employee rather than one of business and client. In essence, Gust feels he is Cycling_Guy's employee and this is receiving his wages directly from Cycling_Guy and thus continued to draw a "salary" or "wage" as long as he was working on the project. Poor contract negotiation, but a contract is still binding no matter how poorly it is made. Even a verbal agreement can be binding. Cycling_Guy's guys need to demonstrate how the contract was broken and what percentage of the liability falls on Desperado. Seeing that Desperado publicly advertises his services, he is taking on more liability than an agreement just between two guys. 

The issue now moves to resolution and it appears Cycling_Guy has made some initial moves to resolve the issue. He has paid money for goods and services which have not been delivered. If Desperado is not willing to produce the product or repay the money, he breaks his end of the contract. 

The resolution can be in some form of arbitration with the help of legal council. It could be in the form of a law suit. It could be made privately, but probably under threat of legal action. 

What did the police say?

What did the attorney say? 

What does the road map to resolution look like? Options? 

We are not privy to a lot of the information, so we can only guess what a reasonable contract and solution might look like. 


p.s.

If he needed a cash advance, I would ask to see his credit history.


----------



## Fivethumbs

I'm afraid that the OP's money is gone. My experience with law enforcement is that they will deem this a civil matter. To prove grand theft they will have to prove that Gust had the intent to steal the OP's money from the onset. These types of cases routinely get closed as "bad business practices". To quote an acquaintance of mine who is a U.S. Attorney, "We put crooks in jail not bad businessmen."

Next, lets say the OP gets a lawyer and sues Gust. Let's say he wins the civil case in court. Now I wan't a show of hands of people who believe the OP will actually see any money. You can't get blood from a turnip as they say. I doubt Gust has any assets. Maybe if he owns his own home the OP could put a lien on it but that won't help until Gust tries to sell the house. I'm sorry to say it but I think the OP just learned a very expensive lesson.


----------



## Dajianshan

I was just thinking the same thing. He'd need a judicial lien. Taking Gust to court would probably bankrupt him.


----------



## h2o-x

I always laugh when people think that the Feds are gonna kick ass and take names when it comes to mail fraud. The USPS Inspectors won't do anything about this until the amount of fraud reaches 10's of thousands of dollars. 

I went though a similar situation with a custom guitar builder several years ago. I lost my deposit of $1250, and many others lost substantially more money. Until the amount of fraud was over $30K + the USPS did nothing. It eventually ended being over $70K. The guy went to jail for a couple years a few years later. I never got any money back, though there was supposed to be some sort of restitution. I took it as avaluable lesson, and it cost me no where near $14K. 

If the OP sues Gust in civil court, which would be a pain in the ass from Japan, he'd probably win the suit. Then hed' get what? A lien on Gust's property. When would that pay out? How is he going to collect? And from Japan? Not gonna happen.

Good luck, OP. It may be time to cut your losses and move on to custom builder like Carl Strong.


----------



## steelrpm

h2o-x said:


> I always laugh when people think that the Feds are gonna kick ass and take names when it comes to mail fraud. The USPS Inspectors won't do anything about this until the amount of fraud reaches 10's of thousands of dollars.
> 
> I went though a similar situation with a custom guitar builder several years ago. I lost my deposit of $1250, and many others lost substantially more money. Until the amount of fraud was over $30K + the USPS did nothing. It eventually ended being over $70K. The guy went to jail for a couple years a few years later. I never got any money back, though there was supposed to be some sort of restitution. I took it as avaluable lesson, and it cost me no where near $14K.
> 
> If the OP sues Gust in civil court, which would be a pain in the ass from Japan, he'd probably win the suit. Then hed' get what? A lien on Gust's property. When would that pay out? How is he going to collect? And from Japan? Not gonna happen.
> 
> Good luck, OP. It may be time to cut your losses and move on to custom builder like Carl Strong.


...and reality speaks.


----------



## OnTheRivet

I get a laugh when read these custom builder horror stories.


----------



## qatarbhoy

Do custom builders make good bikes?


----------



## Jerry-rigged

qatarbhoy said:


> Do custom builders make good bikes?


Yeah, but not as good as trek...

j/k


----------



## stevesbike

wow, a lot to read on this thread. I found listening to this helped while reading:


----------



## T K

Does this guy realize how many Chinarellos he could have bought. Jenny at HongFu would never have treated him like this. Damn, could have bought one of those Cervelo Cali projects and still had enough left over to take his kids to Disneyland. Oh, sorry, didn't mean to mention your kids.


----------



## atpjunkie

*I'll choose*



T K said:


> I just can't tell if the OP is a calm, better man than us, with a plan, or just a passive boob.


the latter


----------



## atpjunkie

*or scrape up*



Dajianshan said:


> If you have that kind of money to throw away on bikes then you could surely scrape up a few dollars for a good lawyer.
> 
> Unless you have an update from a lawsuit or an arbitrated settlement, I figure this thread should stop here.


a few dollars for a Louisville Slugger, some fuel for your car and an airtight alibi


----------



## atpjunkie

*amen*



heathb said:


> Well to start with I just spit my rice dinner all over my monitor laughing so hard at the picture of this "builder" on his facebook page.
> 
> Mr. Desperado is the spitten image of the dirt bags that my town is full of. Whenever a man comments that he's getting his cost of living down to $150 a month, you can bet if he's living in the States, he ain't interested in working at all.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't higher a lawyer. I'd rather have the sweet satisfaction of giving these greasy dirt bag a good old fashion beat down.



a Lawyer is expensive and the results aren't as satisfied

my guess is deperado doesn't have medical insurance


----------



## Cycling_Guy

I want to update this thread. Not to rant but to pass on very important information that I've learned as I'm walking my situation through the system. That trudge continues and will not end soon. 

If you are considering having a custom bicycle built please take this short list of advice as hard earned experience.

Be aware that what you are entering into is a personal services contract. Do a little research as to exactly what that means. 

Start no work and place no deposit until you have a signed contract that at minimum includes:

1. The final product you will receive in as much detail as you feel comfortable. Once signed, neither make nor permit any changes to these details. If you do, you've just turned your personal services contract into toilet paper.

2. Explicitly state timelines for completion. You should speak about this in detail and build in reasonable slack. Remember, if you permit a change, your contract has just lost all its' validity. All cards will reside with the provider of the services. That means they can take as long as they desire and charge whatever they want to get you your final product. Absolutely no limitations. This is so important. Make nor permit changes once the contract has been signed. Don't even change the bar tape. Do not accept any changes. Nothing.

3. Explicitly state how much you will place as a deposit and how much you will pay upon completion. The amount you place as a deposit you should be comfortable in losing. Because, if the provider can show he/she made any attempt whatsoever to obtain the materials or do any work this money will be lost. Make no interim payments. While cold, the only leverage you have is payment. Be smart.

4. Outline work hours, per hour charges and explicitly state the combination of your deposit and final payment encompasses full payment for all materials and labor required to complete the project as detailed within the document.

5. While you will want to have absolute confidence in your provider, please keep in mind that charlatans exist and some of them are very, very good at what they do (meaning being charlatans). You must think worst case scenario. You must be willing to go to the mat if necessary. If you are not, buy off the shelf. In other words, while your heart will be in it, you need to think with your head.


----------



## nightfend

I am still dumbfounded that you chose someone that had no history with building bikes or any following at all. You should have stuck with the reputable builders out there. Sure, even a well known builder could go out of business and you'll lose your money, but the odds are such much better by going with someone like Strong or Vanilla, etc.


----------



## Ppopp

Cycling_Guy said:


> 4. Outline work hours, per hour charges and explicitly state the combination of your deposit and final payment encompasses full payment for all materials and labor required to complete the project as detailed within the document.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it highly unusual for a custom builder to work on a time and materials basis? I've had two custom bikes built in the last 15 years, and both have essentially been firm-fixed-price arrangements.

Per hour charges would be a big red flag for me.


----------



## Italianrider76

With all the spectacular bikes that are offered nowadays by reputable manufacturers, is there any real reason to go custom?


----------



## rward325

Italianrider76 said:


> With all the spectacular bikes that are offered nowadays by reputable manufacturers, is there any real reason to go custom?


 Yes, there is!


----------



## draganM

Italianrider76 said:


> With all the spectacular bikes that are offered nowadays by reputable manufacturers, is there any real reason to go custom?


 you have lots of money, your secure financially, your bored, and you need some stress in your life. 
It's unfortunate to see anyone get robbed, which is what happened here. If you figure $14K ripped off from 10 people that's enough to build a nice ocean-front villa in South America you can run to when the police finally get involved. I bet that's where he was for 6 months, overseeing construction


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Cycling Guy is in no position to be giving advice on dealing with custom framebuilders.


----------



## ukbloke

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Cycling Guy is in no position to be giving advice on dealing with custom framebuilders.


Respectfully disagree - some lessons are learnt the hard way.


----------



## trunkz22

Agreed. He learned it the most painful way possible.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

^ I respect your opinions but disagree.

No point flogging a dead horse, etc.. (Or kicking someone when they're down).


----------



## FatTireFred

Italianrider76 said:


> With all the spectacular bikes that are offered nowadays by reputable manufacturers, is there any real reason to go custom?



plenty of reasons


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Ppopp said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it highly unusual for a custom builder to work on a time and materials basis? I've had two custom bikes built in the last 15 years, and both have essentially been firm-fixed-price arrangements.
> 
> Per hour charges would be a big red flag for me.


Yes, I think you are correct. This is a great example of why a signed agreement is a must. The way it happened in my case is Mr. Gust decided after some 20 months that he was done with his flat fee agreement, that I owed him for over 600 additional hours in labor (Simply made up by him. At that stage he had not worked in 8 months.) and that his hourly fee (previously unstated but it makes sense he assigned value to his time) would double and his new hourly fee would also apply to communication. When I told him he was getting no more money before he delivered our first project and that communications were part of the client/provider relationship he terminated all communications. That was last May. There was no signed agreement between us. Email and phone conversations yes - signed agreement no. Phone conversations are meaningless. Email carries weight but is not a signed agreement.


----------



## Kontact

Funny - my boss knows Lawrence Gust from when his frame building shop was in Madison.

Lawrence told him one day about how he got heat stroke during a bike ride, and his mind went through some changes, resulting in Jalon Hawk.





Wow, right?


----------



## draganM

Kontact said:


> Funny - my boss knows Lawrence Gust from when his frame building shop was in Madison.Lawrence told him one day about how he got heat stroke during a bike ride, and his mind went through some changes, resulting in Jalon Hawk.
> Wow, right?


 so it's like Jekyll and Hyde now? First the mild mannered mr. Gust talks you into sending money, then the Evil Predator Hawk swoops in steals all your cash LOL.
Anyone who opens a business under some made up name should be plenty of warning to anyone. IT's OK for rock stars since we don't expect much from them other than a drug overdose but ....................


----------



## T K

This story still kills me. He only got away with what you let him get away with.


----------



## Dajianshan

Well... maybe you could write Jalon Hawk off on your taxes as either an employee or a dependent.


----------



## dongringo

Wow! Just read this thread. What an ordeal. I happen to believe Cycling Guy. The story has that ring of truth to it. I have a feeling this Gust guy purposely singled out Cycling Guy and who knows how many others because of the customer being from / living in another country. Much easier to get by with it, especially without a signed contract. What a shame. Cycling Guy, I hope you will be able to resolve this eventually. Thanks for telling your story.


----------



## atpjunkie

in the life of this forum I have never seen another thread of this sort
with so many great builders with lists of happy clients on this forum (strong for 1 example) why would someone choose a hack like this? Sure if he was building you a $900 frame and fork. But $14K
Sachs or Sacha don't charge that kind of coin, that should be the warning over the bow


----------



## Cycling_Guy

atpjunkie,

I think you make a great and necessary point - there are fabulous, upright, custom builders available. 

I find it reasonable to assume my circumstances are by far and away an exception rather than the rule. Despite the embarrassing nature of what has happened to me I see no value in keeping it a secret. People's natural tendencies to not share information that clearly paints them as a boob is one of the ways less than upright businesses/individuals continue to operate.

I'm a boob. Hopefully, some others who are considering the worthwhile process of having and enjoying a custom bicycle will avoid the mistakes I have made.


----------



## Dajianshan

In any case, I think the OP has succeeded in branding Desperado Cycles a euphemism for disaster.


----------



## froze

Geez, and I thought I was idiot when I spent $4,500 in 07 for a custom built Mercian fully equipped. And I had all sorts of customized stuff done.

I can't imagine any custom built steel bike being worth anywhere near $14,500...Even a Hetchins wouldn't cost that much. 

I think if I had seen the name "Desperado" that alone would have given me pause!!


----------



## Sasquatch

jeez, it's been more than half a year. time to shut this thread down. no one is THAT dumb anyway to give any amount of money to a no-name custom frame builder with a crap website. 

Jalon/Lawrence/@$$hole will not be getting any business from anyone with any sense.


----------



## orange_julius

Cycling_Guy said:


> atpjunkie,
> 
> I think you make a great and necessary point - there are fabulous, upright, custom builders available.
> 
> I find it reasonable to assume my circumstances are by far and away an exception rather than the rule. Despite the embarrassing nature of what has happened to me I see no value in keeping it a secret. People's natural tendencies to not share information that clearly paints them as a boob is one of the ways less than upright businesses/individuals continue to operate.
> 
> I'm a boob. Hopefully, some others who are considering the worthwhile process of having and enjoying a custom bicycle will avoid the mistakes I have made.


It's very kind of your to share your experience up to this point despite the obvious heartbreak .... thank you and good luck with recovering your money.


----------



## Lotophage

nightfend said:


> I am still dumbfounded that you chose someone that had no history with building bikes or any following at all. You should have stuck with the reputable builders out there. Sure, even a well known builder could go out of business and you'll lose your money, but the odds are such much better by going with someone like Strong or Vanilla, etc.


Hawk talks a really good game. Seriously, he gets on a roll he could sell you anything. He's a really good salesman. 

You know the "Con" in Con man comes from confidence, right? and Hawk does that very well. Everyone else is doing it this way? well, in 10 years they'll all be doing it like this- trust me- you will be soooo ahead of the curve. 

And Vanilla, he's not even taking orders anymore he's so backed up... The boom in customs means that a lot of the better known builders are backed up for years and there are several well known custom builders who are having serious delivery problems, have completely dropped off the face of the earth, etc.

99% of custom builders are fantastic. it's that 1% that ruins it for everyone else...


----------



## atpjunkie

*yes I hope this is a lesson others will benefit from*



Cycling_Guy said:


> atpjunkie,
> 
> I think you make a great and necessary point - there are fabulous, upright, custom builders available.
> 
> I find it reasonable to assume my circumstances are by far and away an exception rather than the rule. Despite the embarrassing nature of what has happened to me I see no value in keeping it a secret. People's natural tendencies to not share information that clearly paints them as a boob is one of the ways less than upright businesses/individuals continue to operate.
> 
> I'm a boob. Hopefully, some others who are considering the worthwhile process of having and enjoying a custom bicycle will avoid the mistakes I have made.


he owes you 2 bikes yes?

as a note: unless the guys is Richie or Sacha, you should expect a reasonable turnaround
no builder should ever ask you for more than a down payment and balance due on delivery
unless they have a long queue then it is DP to hold spot in queue, 2nd Dp when project starts


----------



## WTFcyclist

Geezzzzz, a normal person (i.e. normal height, body) needs a custom frame like a fish needs a bicycle.....

Even if you are rich you should not get a custom frame, it's a waste of time to get a custom frame. According to Larry Olmsted at Forbes: "When I got my bike made by Seven Cycles, there were over 100 different questions and measurements involved." 
Why You Need a Custom Road Bike - Forbes

Thanks Larry Olmsted and Cycling_Guy for making realize how absurd this "custom frame booming" is!!!


----------



## Lotophage

WTFcyclist said:


> Geezzzzz, a normal person (i.e. normal height, body) needs a custom frame like a fish needs a bicycle.....
> 
> Even if you are rich you should not get a custom frame, it's a waste of time to get a custom frame. According to Larry Olmsted at Forbes: "When I got my bike made by Seven Cycles, there were over 100 different questions and measurements involved."
> Why You Need a Custom Road Bike - Forbes
> 
> Thanks Larry Olmsted and Cycling_Guy for making realize how absurd this "custom frame booming" is!!!


Well, yer kinda wrong on this one. 

I'm a reasonably normal size and I got a custom bike because what I wanted didn't exist. 

You want a light-weight frame that's designed to be quick, stable yet still handle like a road bike AND be able to run fenders over 32mm tires, yer kinda screwed. Or at least, you were when I had mine built. 

Didn't want a pokey, slow handling and porky touring bike. Didn't want to try and adapt a CX bike to my needs- bb's are too high, handling is all wrong, no braze ons for racks or bottles on the lighter frames, and they look all wrong. I like classic bikes. 

Wanted something that didn't exist.

Gotta go custom for that or compromise what you want. Figured why compromise when a decent off the peg frame is gonna cost almost as much as a custom?

Haven't had one moment of regret yet.


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## orange_julius

Lotophage said:


> Well, yer kinda wrong on this one.
> 
> I'm a reasonably normal size and I got a custom bike because what I wanted didn't exist.
> 
> You want a light-weight frame that's designed to be quick, stable yet still handle like a road bike AND be able to run fenders over 32mm tires, yer kinda screwed. Or at least, you were when I had mine built.
> 
> Didn't want a pokey, slow handling and porky touring bike. Didn't want to try and adapt a CX bike to my needs- bb's are too high, handling is all wrong, no braze ons for racks or bottles on the lighter frames, and they look all wrong. I like classic bikes.
> 
> Wanted something that didn't exist.
> 
> Gotta go custom for that or compromise what you want. Figured why compromise when a decent off the peg frame is gonna cost almost as much as a custom?
> 
> Haven't had one moment of regret yet.


Your reasons for going custom are very similar to mine: I wanted a longer wheelbase, clearance up to 32m tires, BUT comfortable, with typical road bike BB height and handling. I had tried taking a CX frame and built it as a road bike, but the increased BB height and the stiffness of the frame didn't work so well.


----------



## Lotophage

orange_julius said:


> Your reasons for going custom are very similar to mine: I wanted a longer wheelbase, clearance up to 32m tires, BUT comfortable, with typical road bike BB height and handling. I had tried taking a CX frame and built it as a road bike, but the increased BB height and the stiffness of the frame didn't work so well.


Funny thing is, if this had been 1950, I could have picked up an off-the shelf French or italian race bike that'd be able to do all he things I wanted.

60 years later, there's no such thing. 

So much for progress.


----------



## WTFcyclist

Lotophage said:


> Funny thing is, if this had been 1950, I could have picked up an off-the shelf French or italian race bike that'd be able to do all he things I wanted.
> 
> 60 years later, there's no such thing.
> 
> So much for progress.


In my case, the real reason that I might get a custom frame/fork is because I want a very fancy bike. Fore example: an integrated rear rack with seat stay, belt drive supported, gear box supported (put the gear at BB instead of hub), or perhaps custom gear box.

Very, very, very few frame maker can make a fancy frame that I want. Getting a custom frame is still absurd to me.


----------



## orange_julius

Lotophage said:


> Funny thing is, if this had been 1950, I could have picked up an off-the shelf French or italian race bike that'd be able to do all he things I wanted.
> 
> 60 years later, there's no such thing.
> 
> So much for progress.


Hahaha, you have a point there! 

Not having lived through that era, I can't comment from experience, but from my limited riding of older thin-tubed steel frames, I have to say that I prefer the snap and precise handling that I get from modern frames. Carbon forks make quite a difference in terms of steering and braking. The few older steel frames I have tried (from ~mid 70s to mid 80s vintages) aren't nearly as reactive when I put in a lot of effort. 

I would say that there is potential for progress, even if the largest manufacturers are only now starting to re-discover old but basic knowledge about designing the geometry of a frame.


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## Lotophage

WTFcyclist said:


> In my case, the real reason that I might get a custom frame/fork is because I want a very fancy bike. Fore example: an integrated rear rack with seat stay, belt drive supported, gear box supported (put the gear at BB instead of hub), or perhaps custom gear box.
> 
> Very, very, very few frame maker can make a fancy frame that I want. Getting a custom frame is still absurd to me.


It's absurd to you. That doesn't make it an invalid choice.

Carbon frames are absurd to me, but that doesn't make pro riders fools.


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## froze

I think that Sachs has a 7 to 9 year waiting list to complete a bike if I remember correctly. Lots of things could change in that period of time for a person waiting.


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## trailrunner68

WTFcyclist said:


> Very, very, very few frame maker can make a fancy frame that I want. Getting a custom frame is still absurd to me.


I will tell you what is absurd. Paying several thousand dollars for a frame popped out of a mold in China for $300 instead of paying that same money to get a unique frame made to measure to suit your needs, painted however you want it, and built in a first world country.


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## dongringo

trailrunner68 said:


> I will tell you what is absurd. Paying several thousand dollars for a frame popped out of a mold in China for $300 instead of paying that same money to get a unique frame made to measure to suit your needs, painted however you want it, and built in a first world country.


Yeah!!! Not to mention the option to have it built up with whatever components you want. :thumbsup:


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## Camilo

trailrunner68 said:


> I will tell you what is absurd. Paying several thousand dollars for a frame popped out of a mold in China for $300 instead of paying that same money to get a unique frame made to measure to suit your needs, painted however you want it, and built in a first world country.


And of course, *Everybody* loves steel! I'd opt for the $300 generic carbon fiber frame before I'd spend that kind of money for a custom steel frame, but that's just me.


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## nightfend

Lotophage said:


> Didn't want a pokey, slow handling and porky touring bike. Didn't want to try and adapt a CX bike to my needs- bb's are too high, handling is all wrong, no braze ons for racks or bottles on the lighter frames, and they look all wrong. I like classic bikes.
> 
> Wanted something that didn't exist.


Actually, Hamsten bicycles has a model similar to what you are describing. The Strada Bianca. I'd go that route if I wanted a bike like that.
Strada Bianca « Hampsten Cycles


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## Lotophage

nightfend said:


> Actually, Hamsten bicycles has a model similar to what you are describing. The Strada Bianca. I'd go that route if I wanted a bike like that.
> Strada Bianca « Hampsten Cycles


Which is a custom frame. It was one of the inspirations for mine. 

Their wait was too long and they didn't do fillet brazing so I went local.


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## orange_julius

nightfend said:


> Actually, Hamsten bicycles has a model similar to what you are describing. The Strada Bianca. I'd go that route if I wanted a bike like that.
> Strada Bianca « Hampsten Cycles


Thanks for the info. That Hampsten is a nice bike, quite close to what I wanted, except for using non-integrated headset. Does Hamspten do integrated headsets?


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## trailrunner68

orange_julius said:


> Thanks for the info. That Hampsten is a nice bike, quite close to what I wanted, except for using non-integrated headset. Does Hamspten do integrated headsets?


Why would you want an integrated headset? Get a standard Chris King.

Give Steve Hampsten a call an ask him. He posts on Velocipede Salon. I think he has a "smoked out" thread. You could ask there if you don't want to call.


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## WTFcyclist

Lotophage said:


> It's absurd to you. That doesn't make it an invalid choice.
> 
> Carbon frames are absurd to me, but that doesn't make pro riders fools.


I've found this Bike Direct is quite close to what you described earlier but you probably don't want it.
2012 Motobecane Century Elite Titanium Road Bikes $1,599.95 (complete bikes) - can use tires as wide as 40mm, so I guess I can put fenders on. 
SRAM Apex | Motobecane Titanium Century Road Bikes

Larry Olmsted at Forbes can get this bike in a week and he doesn't need to answer 100 different questions. You can alway get a stock frame (whatever material) or stock bike that you want at a reasonable price.

What annoy me is the BS being perpetuated by the custom frame industry.
This link came from Seven itself.....
Seven Cycles | Press | Forbes | Why You Need a Custom Road Bike
Why You Need a Custom Road Bike - Forbes
"Unless you are 100% “average” no premade frame will ever fit you as well as one custom made to your measurements, from inseam to reach to how far you bend at the waist while riding. When I got my bike made by Seven Cycles, there were over 100 different questions and measurements involved."


----------



## froze

WTFcyclist said:


> I've found this Bike Direct is quite close to what you described earlier but you probably don't want it.
> 2012 Motobecane Century Elite Titanium Road Bikes $1,599.95 (complete bikes) - can use tires as wide as 40mm, so I guess I can put fenders on.
> SRAM Apex | Motobecane Titanium Century Road Bikes
> 
> What annoy me is the BS being perpetuated by the custom frame industry.
> This link came from Seven itself.....
> Seven Cycles | Press | Forbes | Why You Need a Custom Road Bike
> Why You Need a Custom Road Bike - Forbes
> "Unless you are 100% “average” no premade frame will ever fit you as well as one custom made to your measurements, from inseam to reach to how far you bend at the waist while riding. When I got my bike made by Seven Cycles, there were over 100 different questions and measurements involved."


Bikes Direct has a few fantastic bikes, and one section of their bikes represents most of their fantastic bikes and that's their entire titanium lineup; the only other great bike is their one steel lugged bike. Of course this is my opinion. But I have my eye on the Motobecane Le Champion SL Titanium road bike with Ultegra components and Mavic Ksyrium Equipe wheelset for only $2000. I would never be able to find anything in titanium equipped in this fashion for anywhere near even $3000! I thought about the Dura Ace model they have, but decided the small gain I would get from that wasn't worth the price, and the next TI bike down the wheelset is not that great so for me it's worth the extra $300 to get the better wheelset.

Custom builders, just like any other business, will glorify their selling points to the point of exaggeration, and you know what? People buy into that crap all the time. I have several bikes ranging from sizes 55 to 58 and I got them all to fit and fit comfortably; it's mostly correct seat height, correct seat positioning, and correct reach to the bar; once you dial that in you can fit on several different frame sizes. And I'm not anywhere near 100% average...as very few people are. The USPS team rode factory stock bikes, not custom bikes, but a bike you could buy at any LBS that sold Trek; sure the USPS were professionally fitted, but for most people who do not race a pro fit is unnecessary, can you imagine having to get pro fitted every time you got another bike, some of you have 10 to 15 bikes! I have 7 bikes, at a cost of $150 per fitting I would have paid out over $1,000 just for the service not including recommended parts!! Most people don't need a pro fit, what they need is to study how to fit the bike for themselves and do by trial and error, it usually takes me about a week of riding to get a bike adjusted correctly. But my body doesn't scream at me if I'm off by a couple of millimeters from one bike to another.


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## Lotophage

WTFcyclist said:


> I've found this Bike Direct is quite close to what you described earlier but you probably don't want it.
> 2012 Motobecane Century Elite Titanium Road Bikes $1,599.95 (complete bikes) - can use tires as wide as 40mm, so I guess I can put fenders on.
> SRAM Apex | Motobecane Titanium Century Road Bikes
> 
> Larry Olmsted at Forbes can get this bike in a week and he doesn't need to answer 100 different questions. You can alway get a stock frame (whatever material) or stock bike that you want at a reasonable price.
> 
> What annoy me is the BS being perpetuated by the custom frame industry.
> This link came from Seven itself.....
> Seven Cycles | Press | Forbes | Why You Need a Custom Road Bike
> Why You Need a Custom Road Bike - Forbes
> "Unless you are 100% “average” no premade frame will ever fit you as well as one custom made to your measurements, from inseam to reach to how far you bend at the waist while riding. When I got my bike made by Seven Cycles, there were over 100 different questions and measurements involved."


That's pretty awesome and I'm glad to see bikes like this coming out now. 

When I ordered my custom, they just didn't exist, except for Rivendell, and their production frames cost more than my custom. Plus, I've had a rivendell and they're heavy, overbuilt things.

But 5 years ago, light and capable of handling larger tires+fenders just didn't exist outside the custom world.

Of course, post-mounted MAFAC racers _still_ don't exist anywhere but custom...

One other thing- no premade frame will ever fit you as well as a custom designed just for you and your riding style. It's not just the geometry, it's the tubing choice, it's the fork rake, the fork blades, the custom stem, the position of braze-ons, etc. You sit down on the bike and everything is just right.


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## Rugergundog

This guy been on vacation with your money. Forget Mr. Nice guy approach. He is living it up on your savings. I would buy a plane ticket and knock on his door! Ball bat in hand!


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## froze

Rugergundog said:


> This guy been on vacation with your money. Forget Mr. Nice guy approach. He is living it up on your savings. I would buy a plane ticket and knock on his door! Ball bat in hand!


If the ball bat is in hand, I wouldn't recommend traveling by public transportation where one's activities could be tracked. You need to be thinking a bit more "underground, or off the radar" if you get my meaning.


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## dongringo

froze said:


> If the ball bat is in hand, I wouldn't recommend traveling by public transportation where one's activities could be tracked. You need to be thinking a bit more "underground, or off the radar" if you get my meaning.


Yeah, perhaps taking a personal submarine from Japan would be best. Either that or pay a guy to get you a new identity and passport in another name, then buy a plane ticket.


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## froze

dongringo said:


> Yeah, perhaps taking a personal submarine from Japan would be best. Either that or pay a guy to get you a new identity and passport in another name, then buy a plane ticket.


There are ways of travelling from any place to any where and not attract the attention of those who might later investigate your whereabouts at specific times and dates. I think if a person has the resources to come up with $14,500 or so for a bicycle, he can figure how to do something under the radar.

I like the sub idea, but then there's the obvious problem of concealing the purchase and the exchange of money etc. But the sub sounds like fun...assuming it could make it that far, which a personal one wouldn't have that ability anyway so there goes that idea.


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## Sasquatch

im sure if someone does beat Jaylon to death, there will be way too many suspects. All you need to do is wear gloves, and make sure you don't leave any DNA at the scene.


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## trailrunner68

The best thing that you could do is make more threads like this on other forums so that others do not fall prey to this conman. With his money cut off he might have to get a real job.


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## froze

trailrunner68 said:


> The best thing that you could do is make more threads like this on other forums so that others do not fall prey to this conman. With his money cut off he might have to get a real job.


All he needs is 5 or 6 people he can take for $14,500 to make a $1,500 bike and he would have a decent slightly above average living. And he probably gets at least 30 orders a year and probably at least 70% don't frequent forums. So he just needs to rip off 10% of those customers. Rip off? why he's an artist.


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## trailrunner68

froze said:


> All he needs is 5 or 6 people he can take for $14,500 to make a $1,500 bike and he would have a decent slightly above average living. And he probably gets at least 30 orders a year and probably at least 70% don't frequent forums. So he just needs to rip off 10% of those customers. Rip off? why he's an artist.


I would be willing to bet that he gets very few orders per year, and this $14.5K is likely his biggest score ever. If he was getting orders then he could make more money by delivering and getting more customers. The number of people ordering custom bike frames who don't check on a frame builder with Google has to be fairly small.


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## froze

trailrunner68 said:


> I would be willing to bet that he gets very few orders per year, and this $14.5K is likely his biggest score ever. If he was getting orders then he could make more money by delivering and getting more customers. The number of people ordering custom bike frames who don't check on a frame builder with Google has to be fairly small.


You're probably right. Maybe he needed the 14.5k rip off sale to stay alive. I know that Richard Sachs said in an interview once that he didn't make a lot of money either but did for fun and not money. What I can't understand is why it takes him 7 years to complete a bike unless the orders are just stacked. He says he completes 4 to 6 frames a month, and he trusts no one to help him and so he's never trained anyone. Supposedly he is no longer building road bikes but only cross bikes.

In Indiana we have a fantastic custom bike builder with great prices called Shamrock. I visited his shop in Indy just because I wanted to see his work and I was in the neighborhood; he makes fantastic bikes, for less then other custom shops too; and anything goes-you dream it you got it.


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## WTFcyclist

froze said:


> Rip off? why he's an artist.


He can get away if he proclaim himself as a modern/post-modern artist. A blank canvas can cost more than $14k if it made by an artist. If you cannot appreciate this great art, you are a philistine. 









Thus, this Jalon Hawk is a builder of invisible bicycle frame. Only the smart people can appreciate his great art of bicycle frame.


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## froze

WTFcyclist said:


> He can get away if he proclaim himself as a modern/post-modern artist. A blank canvas can cost more than $14k if it made by an artist. If you cannot appreciate this great art, you are a philistine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thus, this Jalon Hawk is a builder of invisible bicycle frame. Only the smart people can appreciate his great art of bicycle frame.


call me a Philistine then! I was a art museum in Santa Barbara California and saw something similar to that photo you showed except this "artist" got creative, he drew a diagonal line and painted the top half orange and the bottom half left plain white canvas, then he reversed it for the next one, then he drew a horizontal and did the same thing with those, and again with a vertical series. So my wife and I are standing there looking at this crap; and a group of artist appreciation and interpreters were standing there going oh and ah and talking intellectually about this crap, so I blurted out..."hell, I could have done this, and I failed art!" The looks on the faces of those intellectual art critics was precious, my wife was laughing.


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## trailrunner68

froze said:


> You're probably right. Maybe he needed the 14.5k rip off sale to stay alive. I know that Richard Sachs said in an interview once that he didn't make a lot of money either but did for fun and not money. What I can't understand is why it takes him 7 years to complete a bike unless the orders are just stacked. He says he completes 4 to 6 frames a month, and he trusts no one to help him and so he's never trained anyone. Supposedly he is no longer building road bikes but only cross bikes.


Maybe he uses two months worth of bikes for his cross team. A few hundred orders in his queue would then stretch the time to seven years.

Sachs I understand. He has been building since the seventies. He is a master. White at Vanilla I don't understand. White began building in 1999. Meanwhile there are guys like Kirk who probably built more frames in a single year while he was working at Serotta than White has built in his entire life.


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## froze

trailrunner68 said:


> Maybe he uses two months worth of bikes for his cross team. A few hundred orders in his queue would then stretch the time to seven years.
> 
> Sachs I understand. He has been building since the seventies. He is a master. White at Vanilla I don't understand. White began building in 1999. Meanwhile there are guys like Kirk who probably built more frames in a single year while he was working at Serotta than White has built in his entire life.


Some people have a natural talent for doing stuff like that, just because White has only been doing since 99 doesn't mean he's a bad or not good enough frame builder. 99 to now is 11 to 12 years of experience, he's had to be very well accomplished on his trade or he would be getting complaints, so he must have been doing something related before he opened his business. Nobody could start a business like that without a clue as to how to make frame! 

Sachs by the way recommends a slew of custom builders on his site, one of them is Shamrock just down the road from me in Indianapolis. I actually visited and toured his shop and he does very nice work, and his prices are less then other custom builders. If I had the money to throw down on a custom lugged steel bike again that's the place I would go. hand built frames from the mountains of Indiana


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## atpjunkie

*indeed*



trailrunner68 said:


> I will tell you what is absurd. Paying several thousand dollars for a frame popped out of a mold in China for $300 instead of paying that same money to get a unique frame made to measure to suit your needs, painted however you want it, and built in a first world country.


the whole Hong Fu thing pulled the veneer off the CF thing. If buying one direct (w profit for mfr) can be done for 300-300 bones you know how much mark up one is paying

I'd rather have my bikes tailored for that kind of coin


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## PlatyPius

froze said:


> Sachs by the way recommends a slew of custom builders on his site, one of them is Shamrock just down the road from me in Indianapolis. I actually visited and toured his shop and he does very nice work, and his prices are less then other custom builders. If I had the money to throw down on a custom lugged steel bike again that's the place I would go. hand built frames from the mountains of Indiana


I've wanted a Shamrock for a long time. I've had a few email convos with Tim, but I never had a chance to get to his shop - we all work the same hours, pretty much. His bikes are gorgeous.

My one and only issue with Shamrock.... the "Made with a Mac" website. It looks too much like it was built with a WYSIWYG sitebuilder (which, of course, it was).


----------



## PlatyPius

atpjunkie said:


> the whole Hong Fu thing pulled the veneer off the CF thing. If buying one direct (w profit for mfr) can be done for 300-300 bones you know how much mark up one is paying
> 
> I'd rather have my bikes tailored for that kind of coin


Exactly. If I'm going to buy a $14,000 bike, it sure as hell isn't going to be a Specialized or any other big, made-in-China brand. It's going to be a Cyfac or a TIME, or any other handmade, customizable frame.
(Actually, it would be a Cyfac, but I'm biased)


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## ms6073

Sasquatch said:


> Jalon/Lawrence/@$$hole will not be getting any business from anyone with any sense.


I cant help thinking how entertaining it would be for several forum members to pool resources and run a 'nigerian' style bicycle scam on the guy.


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## trailrunner68

atpjunkie said:


> the whole Hong Fu thing pulled the veneer off the CF thing. If buying one direct (w profit for mfr) can be done for 300-300 bones you know how much mark up one is paying


The interesting thing about that is the large bike companies are paying a lot less than the low volume producers that are selling direct and through eBay. On Velocipede Salon a guy who is going through the process to have a frame manufactured in Asia wrote that Specialized pays $135 for a carbon frame and that is painted. It might even be the landed cost. He was not specific about the model or anything. You can get a pretty good discount for ordering ten of the no-name frames. Think what kind of price break you could get for ordering ten thousand.

If I am going to pay first world prices then I expect first world labor.


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## froze

PlatyPius said:


> I've wanted a Shamrock for a long time. I've had a few email convos with Tim, but I never had a chance to get to his shop - we all work the same hours, pretty much. His bikes are gorgeous.
> 
> My one and only issue with Shamrock.... the "Made with a Mac" website. It looks too much like it was built with a WYSIWYG sitebuilder (which, of course, it was).


Don't let a poorly designed web site stop you from getting a Shamrock. Once you see their shop and their bikes they make you'll forget you ever thought bad about their web site!!! I'm serious man, find the time to get to the shop, they, Tim, does fantastic work. Before you order one though make sure you make a list of all the stuff you want on it, like braze on's for fenders and or racks, bottle mounts, chain holder, frame pump peg, reinforcements for bottle mounts and brake bridges etc, so you don't forget something when you order and find yourself beating your head because you forgot to put something on the bike. Tim will do anything you want, his website even says that he doesn't judge, some custom builders won't do certain things because it's not according to their taste! Their taste? It's your freakin bike and your ordering it custom, they should do whatever you want...within reason of course.

He can even put those real fancy Nervex style lugs that are made by Sachs...those look really cool. Tim and Sachs know each other somehow, but Sachs speaks highly of him and his work. If you get an endorsement like that from a man like Sachs then you know that Tim must be extraordinary frame builder because Sachs likes very few builders.


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## HMBAtrail

PlatyPius said:


> My one and only issue with Shamrock.... the "Made with a Mac" website. It looks too much like it was built with a WYSIWYG sitebuilder (which, of course, it was).


You can say what you will about me but I'll be damned if I'll stand here and let you sully the fine reputation of the hard working programmers at "website in a box". Out back I have a squaring off spot and we can roll up our sleeves and settle it like true gentlemen.

I do appreciate the kind words though and you have long been an "FOS" (Friend of Shamrock). I thank you for that. I try and be as open and forthcoming as I can and always have invited folks to come into the shop and mill around, ask questions, touch, poke, and prod the parts. It helps to get a sense of what type of bike I like but, more importantly, what kind of bike YOU want.

If any of you are making the trip to NAHBS Sacramento next week be sure and say hi.


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## Dajianshan

If anyone sees Jalon Hawk at NAHBS this year, be sure to give him a big :thumbsup:


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## Cycling_Guy

Modified by OP. Will repost


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## Dajianshan

I am sorry, but this is difficult to read with the mixed annotations.


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## trailrunner68

Use quote sections. It will make it easier to tell what is Jalon Hawk's and what is yours.


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## cyclusaddictus

This is THE most entertaining thread ever. Someone has to produce a movie for this.


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## Cycling_Guy

Mr. Gust received 2 offers to settle out of court from my lawyer. Prior to that, he received a number of offers from me. I stopped attempting to deal with him directly after he responded to my last personal offer with a letter that stated someone once told him that "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results". In the letter he hand wrote that he "added $50" to the ever increasing amount he says I owe him (Apparently, the bigger the lie the more it will be believed is the mentality.). You see, the cost of plating that Mr. Gust offered to do, quoted me the cost of the service and was paid for in advance has increased by over $16,000 (Amazing really - just out of the blue that number was created. Well, actually his initial quotation to me was based on 40 hours of work. Mr. Gust apparently took it upon himself to perform some 640 hours of additional labor according to him. So, let's see, 40 hours of work becomes 40+640. How does that add up? Well, Mr. Gust graciously only charged me $25 per hour for those 640 hours of - well, whatever you want to call a lie. Oh, he still has "at least" 80 more hours (or $4,000 more - for this part of the lie I'm on the $50 per hour plan) work to do on the fork alone. Remember, the master builder quoted me 40 hours for the entire plating service. Again, simply amazing. and he told me sometime back that now communicating with him carries a cost of $50 per hour. The second offer from my lawyer he refused the certified mail but received it via regular USPS mail. It was ignored. So, the legal complaint is being drawn up and will be filed. Here we go.


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## Sasquatch

Is this thread seriously still alive?!


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## T K

I hope somthing comes of all of this. Keep us posted.


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## froze

I hope you win all of your money back, problem is with his attitude you'll be lucky to see a dime of it. You may end up having to put a lien on his business, and or his home after you get the judgement against him. This is really bad business practice from a supposedly great builder.

when you get your thoughts more organized, you may have done that I just haven't gone back to read any edits, you should post this stuff on all the cycling forums you can find across the internet. Then post a blog or website to show the details of the complaint. Then file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau if you haven't already done so. This guy needs to be put out of business and I would take every course of action I could find to spread the bad word on this turkey. But always just post the facts, not made up stories.


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## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

Definitely agree with telling the truth. Truth is protected. I am legally permitted to tell the truth to whomever I choose in whatever forum I choose to tell it. Mr. Gust has already threatened a class-action lawsuit but obviously he's just chest pounding. I can see it now - "He told the truth and that negatively impacted my business, caused me personal distress and affected my professional relationships". Of course, I'm making that up. But, really, what else could he say? I've yet to and will not mislead, exaggerate, slant, twist or do anything other than relay the actual circumstances. I've been taken great advantage of by a deceptive, manipulative, lying, reduced individual. Plain and simple.


----------



## Kontact

froze said:


> I hope you win all of your money back, problem is with his attitude you'll be lucky to see a dime of it. You may end up having to put a lien on his business, and or his home after you get the judgement against him. *This is really bad business practice from a supposedly great builder.*
> 
> when you get your thoughts more organized, you may have done that I just haven't gone back to read any edits, you should post this stuff on all the cycling forums you can find across the internet. Then post a blog or website to show the details of the complaint. Then file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau if you haven't already done so. This guy needs to be put out of business and I would take every course of action I could find to spread the bad word on this turkey. But always just post the facts, not made up stories.


What gives you the idea that Gust is a great builder? He claims to not even be able to silver braze 953.

He's a lunatic with a website, not a "great builder". I have never heard of anyone who likes his products - I only know of one guy who had a Desperado, and it promptly broke.


----------



## froze

Kontact said:


> What gives you the idea that Gust is a great builder? He claims to not even be able to silver braze 953.
> 
> He's a lunatic with a website, not a "great builder". I have never heard of anyone who likes his products - I only know of one guy who had a Desperado, and it promptly broke.


HE, Gust claims to be a great builder. But I've heard on other forums over the years from a very few other members who said he's a great builder. I don't know that for a fact, I've never bought a bike from him nor knew anyone who owns one of his bikes. 

It's just too bad he's such a wacked lunatic, makes you wonder how many people he's taken advantage of. 

If I was ever to have another custom steel bike built I would go south of me to Indianapolis and pay another visit to Shamrock, these guys are truly great builders, will do anything you want without judging, and they do it at very reasonable prices. These guys are even referred by Richard Sachs, who supplies Shamrock with Sachs custom lugs.


----------



## ms6073

Cycling_Guy said:


> Mr. Gust has already threatened a class-action lawsuit but obviously he's just chest pounding.


Um, I dont think that means what Gust thinks it means. A 'Class Action' lawsuit is a form of suit in which a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court and/or in which a class of defendants is being sued which in either case neither he nor you represent a class or a large group of people. Better yet, his latest communications should be considered further attempts to defraud as he has yet to delivery any tangible goods nor have you indicated that he has presented any kind of formal accounting of the time for which he claims you owe. So stop beating around the bush and file the suit already! Make him put his money were his mouth is as up to now, you are the party in this fiasco who it out any real money. All that posturing and chest beating on his part is simply a stall tactic because once you file suit in a court of law, he has to either pony up and hire an attorney or risk representing himself and if he simp[ly fails to appear, then your attorney can request summary judgement. Of course if that is the case, then the real fun starts as already stated, you will probably end up with leans on business/property but nothing in terms of tangible proceeds to help defray your legal costs.


----------



## nightfend

I still think this whole thing was made up and is not real. I mean, isn't it odd that no one else had ever heard of this builder, nor ordered anything from him?


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Jalon Hawke defending himself in court would be awesome.
It should be on pay-per-view. 

Good luck Cycling Guy, I hope you win but I cannot see you recovering any of his loot. On the other hand, you might save others the misfortune you have experienced.


----------



## Kontact

nightfend said:


> I still think this whole thing was made up and is not real. I mean, isn't it odd that no one else had ever heard of this builder, nor ordered anything from him?


I know who he is, know people that know him personally and have ridden and broken his frames - and said so in this thread. How could that be "not real"?


----------



## nightfend

Kontact said:


> I know who he is, know people that know him personally and have ridden and broken his frames - and said so in this thread. How could that be "not real"?


Then, if this is a real thread, it is really even more sad and pathetic than I thought. Who falls for something like this?


----------



## Kontact

nightfend said:


> Then, if this is a real thread, it is really even more sad and pathetic than I thought. Who falls for something like this?


What do you mean "falls for"? The OP didn't see any warnings about Gust when he was looking for a builder. He found out after his frames were being held hostage.

What would you have done? Your two posts on this topic seem to suppose that everyone else is gullible or something.


----------



## nightfend

He sent multiple payments for large sums of money to a rather unknown custom builder when he could have hired someone like Strong or Vanilla or a hundred other reputable builders to create his bike. Who sends $14,000+ dollars to someone that has given them nothing in return? It's crazy.


----------



## froze

nightfend said:


> He sent multiple payments for large sums of money to a rather unknown custom builder when he could have hired someone like Strong or Vanilla or a hundred other reputable builders to create his bike. Who sends $14,000+ dollars to someone that has given them nothing in return? It's crazy.


I agreed, and others including myself had said that earlier in this post. He should have stopped sending payments the minute the price started going higher then the original estimate. It's customary for a builder to ask for a deposit when you agree to have the work started, then there is no more money exchanging hands till the product is completed and ready for shipment, but this process with Gust was pure lunacy and the OP fell for it again and again and again.


----------



## nightfend

I mean, I really do hope everything works out. But every time I read posts in this thread, I just shake my head at the situation.


----------



## froze

nightfend said:


> I mean, I really do hope everything works out. But every time I read posts in this thread, I just shake my head at the situation.


It's a nightmare that the op needed to stop on the very first time a payment besides the deposit was asked for. I too think OP is screwed. If Gust is this sort of person then it wouldn't be any stretch for him not to pay any judgement, which means the OP is looking at putting a lien on his property. If Gust has the place he's in foreclosed on then no money for the OP.


----------



## Lotophage

nightfend said:


> Then, if this is a real thread, it is really even more sad and pathetic than I thought. Who falls for something like this?


You know the "con" in con man stands for confidence, right?

Who falls for stuff like this? Millions of people every year. 

Why do people keep gambling after they lose? Why is it do freaking hard to say "enough, we're cutting our losses!"

Hell, why do people buy carbon wheels? Those look like a scam to me...


----------



## qatarbhoy

That reminds me, I need to buy some Facebook shares! And a pair of SRAM 80s.


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## Cycling_Guy

nightfend,

It is not difficult to see where you are coming from. In many ways you are correct. I mean really, who indeed falls for something like this? Well, someone who chose to believe. Am I proud of that? Clearly not. I saved for a long time to have him brutally and without conscious take all I had to give. Once I had no more to give he simply ceased all communications. He was done with me. I make myself sick just thinking about it. All I wanted to do was build a few dreams. Instead, I have this. But again, I absolutely get being seen as a complete boob who got exactly what he let happen to him. Nothing more. Telling "the world" as it were about it is not fun. But, if telling what happened to me helps others to make better choices then maybe that is something. Heck, this is still costing me money. Lawyers don't work for free. But, I feel I must drive this to a conclusion.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

froze,

Your concerns about my ability to obtain anything tangible from the law process seems valid. While I didn't put it together at the time, there are certainly reasons why Mr. Gust immediately rids himself of any money he does make, why despite being a fully able bodied adult is a long term recipient of Wisconsin State Welfare programs, has not registered his business and has no working capital. If anyone decides to enlist Mr. Gust for work you will pay 100% in advance. All dealings with him will be verbal - that is a given. He will sign nothing. When he signed for the bike box I purchased and had delivered to him for delivery of the first custom project he signed for the delivery with the name "Andy" (according to the FedEx receipt I received). Mr. Gust does not employ any workers. It appears that despite being overtly dishonest and even when found guilty in a court of law he will largely walk through the rain drops. A very hard lesson for me to learn but one others can keep in mind. Once someone has your money, it is an effective guarentee that no matter how they came to get it they will likely keep it.


----------



## nightfend

Cycling_Guy said:


> But again, I absolutely get being seen as a complete boob who got exactly what he let happen to him. Nothing more.


Well, regardless of the mistakes you made, you are still the victim and this bike builder (if you want to call him that) is ultimately the one at fault. Hopefully you get a little justice and peace of mind out of this. Because it is a giant nightmare of a mess.


----------



## froze

Cycling_Guy said:


> froze,
> 
> Your concerns about my ability to obtain anything tangible from the law process seems valid. While I didn't put it together at the time, there are certainly reasons why Mr. Gust immediately rids himself of any money he does make, why despite being a fully able bodied adult is a long term recipient of Wisconsin State Welfare programs, has not registered his business and has no working capital. If anyone decides to enlist Mr. Gust for work you will pay 100% in advance. All dealings with him will be verbal - that is a given. He will sign nothing. When he signed for the bike box I purchased and had delivered to him for delivery of the first custom project he signed for the delivery with the name "Andy" (according to the FedEx receipt I received). Mr. Gust does not employ any workers. It appears that despite being overtly dishonest and even when found guilty in a court of law he will largely walk through the rain drops. A very hard lesson for me to learn but one others can keep in mind. Once someone has your money, it is an effective guarentee that no matter how they came to get it they will likely keep it.



Legally however, like I said before, this guy won't pay you back even after a judgement, but you must get that judgement, and then you must make his life as difficult as you can including liens on any personal, real, and or business properties, posting on all the bike forums you can find, creating a web page and/or blog so when someone looks up his website a complaint website will be featured, Better Business report filed, do everything possible to make his miserable life a lot worse.

This man bullied you then raped you financially, plain and simple. If you ever have another bike custom made again obviously never pay more then the agreed deposit to start the work, and no builder will charge you 100%, typically it's 25%, and don't pay a dime more till the work is completed and it's ready to be sent, this is also typical; and when any request or money is received an e-mail is sent to you confirming. 

I don't know what kind of custom work you were trying to get done or if your still interested in having it done but Shamrock Cycles in Indianapolis Indiana (http://www.lugoftheirish.com/Shamrock_Cycles/Home.html) can do anything you want and for about two thirds less money then what you got raped for. And since Richard Sachs has endorsed him his business has exploded, and the lead time to build a bike went from just a month to now 5 months. There's also Ellis at: http://www.elliscycles.com/ and Anderson at: http://www.andersoncustombicycles.com/ both are referred by Sachs and do great work but they cost more then Shamrock.

I'm sorry this happened to you, but I hope you do battle with this guy and not shy away, you have the means to do this, bullies count on their victims to shy away, don't be the victim - be the aggressor.


----------



## atpjunkie

*he could have had almost 3 Vanillas*



nightfend said:


> He sent multiple payments for large sums of money to a rather unknown custom builder when he could have hired someone like Strong or Vanilla or a hundred other reputable builders to create his bike. Who sends $14,000+ dollars to someone that has given them nothing in return? It's crazy.


at that $$$, in fact if you ordered 3 I'm sure Sacha might give ya a price break...maybe

2 Vanilla CXers and a roadie / rando mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## nightfend

All of the builders froze mentions are very good and reputable. Definitely a better choice. But at this point, I'd guess that Cycling_Guy will never buy a custom bike again.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

Thank you for your advice and for offering some known good names in custom building. Unfortunately, Mr. Gust took years of savings from me. I cut little corners, did extra things for money, sometimes did less things - all the normal stuff you do when you have a bigger goal in mind. I'm just a regular guy. I'm afraid those little dreams just won't come to pass. 

But, it's not all gloom. Not at all. I still ride almost every day for my commute, get out for longer hauls on the weekends and still love just being on a bike making circles. I've got a pretty good job, family and friends who manage to tolerate me most days and despite this little issue the mirror usually tells me I ain't such a bad Joe at the end of the day. Life is pretty damned good.


----------



## mness

Cycling_Guy, what I'd love to see, after all the drama of this thread, is a description or plans of what the Desperado was supposed to be building for you that turned out to be such a problem for him.


----------



## froze

I do hope you pursue the legal course of action against that prick, and don't give up; Mr Gust is looking for you just to give up and go away which is probably what everyone else has done. But the amount of money you spent is a felony fraud conviction for him, you may not be able to get the money short of liens, but he can at least think about it behind bars for a year or two. I would press charges.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

mness said:


> Cycling_Guy, what I'd love to see, after all the drama of this thread, is a description or plans of what the Desperado was supposed to be building for you that turned out to be such a problem for him.


I do understand the curiosity. In short, Mr. Gust was paid in advance and in full per his own invoices for 1 complete custom bicycle, a second built and painted custom frame and I purchased a Schwinn frame, fork and gas tank from his website. That one irks me in a special way as Mr. Gust waited until I mailed him the postage for delivery of the Schwinn frame, fork and gas tank (he sent weight and dimensions of the package) before telling me that he decided I was not a proper home for the items. No refund of course. Just I'm not getting it. The man sunk as low as to defraud me for common postage. It makes me wonder how many other people have purchased that frame. fork and gas tank. 

In fairness I should add that we were talking about a larger project with those parts but asked them to be delivered to me instead as I decided to do the project with my son. I thought building a custom ballooner together that would be his would be a great father/son deal. I didn't see the problem with this as I was already paid in full for 2 complete projects, timelines were running into years on the first one and the second one couldn't even be spoke about.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

froze said:


> I do hope you pursue the legal course of action against that prick, and don't give up; Mr Gust is looking for you just to give up and go away which is probably what everyone else has done. But the amount of money you spent is a felony fraud conviction for him, you may not be able to get the money short of liens, but he can at least think about it behind bars for a year or two. I would press charges.


I am and will continue to. I tried very hard and for a long time to bring this whole thing to a reasonable close. The closest Mr. Gust came to "reasonable" was to say he would send the unfinished, unpainted first frame if I agreed that his business was free of any liability for the condition it might arrive in, that no further actions or demands would be made and that I would agree to go out to every website I posted my situation on (he was clear that "he knew them all") and explain that I am a complete liar, that Mr. Gust went above and beyond to service my every request and that I apologize for any harm I caused Laurence Barney Gust II and Desperado Cycles. Talk about a piece of work.

Anyway, the unfortunate reality is Mr. Gust is in no danger of criminal prosecution. We had no written contract. This is a matter for civil court. . He knows all of this I'm sure. At first, I thought he was being brazen to the point of stupid. But, it turns out that the system just really isn't set up for us little people and people like the low-brow Mr. Gust bounce along the bottom, steal from and defraud people for a living and largely just walk away. Nonetheless. I will indeed take him to court. Weather he shows up or not he will be found guilty or whatever the civil court equivalent of that is - the evidence is beyond overwhelming. I find you to be 100% correct when you say that he is depending on the weight and expense of plodding through the system to cause me to walk away. I'm not.


----------



## froze

Do you have copies of all the e-mails? That evidence will be you're saving grace in court.


----------



## tlg

Cycling_Guy said:


> Anyway, the unfortunate reality is Mr. Gust is in no danger of criminal prosecution.


Probably not. It's out of your hands and up to the DA. A good DA would pursue it though because it sure sounds like some serious fraud and extortion went on. 



> We had no written contract.


Unless you paid in cash, a written contract doesn't really make a difference. If you paid by check, paypal, or some other means where you have receipt of payment then you have proof of payment for services. Plus you have emails. He needs to show proof that he provided some service for the vast amount of money he received. You would win very easily in court. Any logical person, judge or jury, would expect to see quite a bit of service provided for $14,000.

Ultimately the worst part is that you can't get blood form a stone. It sounds like Mr. Gust doesn't have a lot of assets. Even if you win, you'll likely never see your money again. But don't give up. You have to see it through.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

Yes, maybe the one smart thing I did was save every word.


----------



## froze

Cycling_Guy said:


> Froze,
> 
> Yes, maybe the one smart thing I did was save every word.


GOOD! Because that is as good as his word in court.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

atpjunkie said:


> at that $$$, in fact if you ordered 3 I'm sure Sacha might give ya a price break...maybe
> 
> 2 Vanilla CXers and a roadie / rando mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


What's your point? Just rubbing salt in the wound, gloating over his misfortune?

What's done is done, what matters now is how the Desperado is held accountable.


----------



## martinrjensen

I just took a look and did some reading on the Desparado website. My question is just how did you or him come up with $14,000.00 for a frame? Were there constant changes in the order?I mean a high end custom frame is probably what around $3000.00?
I just don't see what the money went for and how it could accumulate to that amount.
I guess I don't really expect an answer but after this much time, I don't know.


----------



## Cyclin Dan

martinrjensen said:


> I just took a look and did some reading on the Desparado website. My question is just how did you or him come up with $14,000.00 for a frame? Were there constant changes in the order?I mean a high end custom frame is probably what around $3000.00?
> I just don't see what the money went for and how it could accumulate to that amount.
> I guess I don't really expect an answer but after this much time, I don't know.


Read the thread. In total, it included 2 COMPLETE BIKES built and a 3rd old bike, which was to be restored. The purchase of the 3rd bike was part of the $14k.


----------



## ms6073

martinrjensen said:


> I just don't see what the money went for and how it could accumulate to that amount.


While the total was to include 2 COMPLETE BIKES built and restoration of a 3rd old bike, what has actually occured is because of the OP's trust and good nature, the proprieter of Desparado Cycles essentially took an extended vacation as he does not appear to have done anything else in exchange for the OP's money! In September, the USGP Cyclocross series kicks off in Maddison and I was thinking of swinging by Desperado Cycles but surpise, there is not an address listed under on the website. A quick websearch would appear to indicate that he may have declared Chapter 7 Bankruptcy back in 2000-2001 and also turned up a AboutUs Wiki site link which suggests he is doing business as Tail Wind Bicycle Shop in Madison but a quick look at Google Maps Street View indicates that the buildings at/around this address are either appartments, a store front for an accupuncturist, and the former site of a resturant that is now for lease.


----------



## froze

That makes sense, he's actually a acupuncturist who likes to inflict pain, then tell you your ok.


----------



## atpjunkie

*not at all*



Cinelli 82220 said:


> What's your point? Just rubbing salt in the wound, gloating over his misfortune?
> 
> What's done is done, what matters now is how the Desperado is held accountable.


if a relatively unknown builder was charging Sachs or Vanilla prices, why wouldn't one just order a Sachs or a Vanilla? I mean you typically use a lesser known builder to save some dough. 

Soulcraft, Sycip, Zanconato, Strong just off the top of my head fall into the next price point


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

ms6073 said:


> While the total was to include 2 COMPLETE BIKES built and restoration of a 3rd old bike, what has actually occured is because of the OP's trust and good nature, the proprieter of Desparado Cycles essentially took an extended vacation as he does not appear to have done anything else in exchange for the OP's money! In September, the USGP Cyclocross series kicks off in Maddison and I was thinking of swinging by Desperado Cycles but surpise, there is not an address listed under on the website. A quick websearch would appear to indicate that he may have declared Chapter 7 Bankruptcy back in 2000-2001 and also turned up a AboutUs Wiki site link which suggests he is doing business as Tail Wind Bicycle Shop in Madison but a quick look at Google Maps Street View indicates that the buildings at/around this address are either appartments, a store front for an accupuncturist, and the former site of a resturant that is now for lease.



Whoa. 

I've been checking in on this thread since its beginning. 

Imho (based mostly on reading his earlier FB and website musings), the guy is a classic example of Borderline Personality Disorder. No amount of "punishment" will make him regret his actions. There's no reasoning with whack-jobs like this. 

Still, hang him, and hang him high.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Oopsie, double post


----------



## PlasticMotif

OP: You're already committed. Lawyer up.


----------



## dgeesaman

Cycling_Guy said:


> Froze,
> 
> Yes, maybe the one smart thing I did was save every word.


This should be terrifically valuable. This guy has obviously changed "things" a million times and there is no reason not to expect him to change his story again in court. Having his word on paper (or email) will go a long way toward serving justice.

This individual will not learn any lessons, probably. But you can aim to be made whole and possibly discourage this type of activity in the future. Get the civil suit filed now and get the process started.


----------



## atpjunkie

*atta girl*



OldEndicottHiway said:


> Whoa.
> 
> I've been checking in on this thread since its beginning.
> 
> Imho (based mostly on reading his earlier FB and website musings), the guy is a classic example of Borderline Personality Disorder. No amount of "punishment" will make him regret his actions. There's no reasoning with whack-jobs like this.
> 
> Still, hang him, and hang him high.


I wholly approve of this opinion


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Update. Mr Gust was served and responded to the complaint against him. Of course, it was a categorical denial of all things. Discovery is the next step. 

You too can have all of this. Just give him a ring or drop him an e-mail and send money.


----------



## JoelS

Thanks for keeping this updated. I'm interested in how it plays out and whether or not you get some justice.


----------



## froze

The courts can rule against him all they want but he's the one that decides to pay, they can't force him to pay, but you could make it uncomfortable for him. Liens is a good place to start, find any property with his name on the title and put a lien against it, this info is available city and county records. Another way is to have the judge do a garnishing order which the court attaches to all wages and bank accounts, this is very burdensome thus very effective. If he still doesn't comply the court can order certain goods seized and sold to pay the bill, but that is a last ditch effort, but after which he would no longer have anything left to conduct any business with anyone else in the future! So you could be in for a very long process as you go from one step to the next, but I recommend you do whatever it takes and for however long it takes. You may or may not ever see all your money, but you can sure make life hell for him if he choses not to give you back your money.


----------



## champamoore

Cycling_Guy said:


> I employed Jalon Hawk (real name Laurence B. Gust) of Desperado Cycles in Deerbrook Wisconsin to create a custom bicycle for me. 22 months and over $14,500 later (yes, I'm an idiot) all I've received are excuses, demands for more money and verbal lashings for being unwilling to pay more for the work of a "master builder".
> 
> Be afraid. Be very afraid.


You didn't get a clue from the name of the business (and _the logo_)? ;] Good luck in your quest for justice! Put a lien on that MF, in the meantime!


----------



## Andy M-S

rgordin said:


> Spend some time and find an attorney whom you can trust. Lawyers are not just guns that you aim. A good attorney will guide you in planning the best course of action -
> ...
> Good attorneys are counselors as well as courtroom advocates.


Well said. One other thing you _might_ try is to consider hiring a mediator first. Lawyers take a rights-based approach, while mediators are interest-based, which tends to be less threatening to a lot of people. It's possible that a mediator would be seen as a less hostile alternative. Mediators are relatively inexpensive, and if the mediation fails, you are not precluded from bringing a suit (for, e.g., breach of contract).


----------



## champamoore

Anybody else notice his interest in *LED growing chambers*? That may further interest the authorities. He may just have some cash, after all. 

Again, put a lien on that MF for whatever he _does_ have.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Andy M-S said:


> Well said. One other thing you _might_ try is to consider hiring a mediator first. Lawyers take a rights-based approach, while mediators are interest-based, which tends to be less threatening to a lot of people. It's possible that a mediator would be seen as a less hostile alternative. Mediators are relatively inexpensive, and if the mediation fails, you are not precluded from bringing a suit (for, e.g., breach of contract).


And M-S,

Thank you for your practical suggestion. Unfortunately, about 18 months ago Mr. Gust told me in an e-mail that his phone service would be turned off due to lack of payment and he therefore would have no telephone or Internet service thus relegating us to regular mail communications only. His phone service was never terminated but he nonetheless has lived to the "regular mail only" posture. I sent him 5 self-addressed, stamped envelopes and began communicating via regular mail. He responded twice via regular mail. Both mails abusive. One, he sent after I wrote him with a proposed outline for delivery of the products I'm 100% paid in advance for he responded with "A good client of mine, Neil L., once told me: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results." He added in hand writing that "Your account has been charged $50" for the writing of the letter. Of course, he was referencing my multiple attempts to reach some sort of agreement with him.

There is a simple bottom line - once he had extracted all the money that I had to give, he discarded me like so much garbage.


----------



## froze

This just keeps getting weirder and weirder. 

He has no right to charge you $50 for writing a letter, he's not an attorney being paid due to time spent corresponding. Keep those letters which I'm sure you are. You probably should send him a bill with a running tab for all the hours you spent communicating with him, and figure $150 per hour, unless you get paid more then per hour in your own personal occupation then charge that per hour. Send that bill by registered mail. Demand payment, and go through the usual failure to pay a bill steps.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

Near the end, before he stopped communicating entirely, although at that point he was just being abusive, he told me it was important I understand this was a business for him and his time is worth money. To drive the point home he told me he was doubling his time charge fees and communications (phone calls, e-mail, regular mail, etc.) would also carry a $50 per hour charge.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

For some reason, the post you responded to is now gone. Server glitch?


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

I should reiterate that at the time he told me about his time being worth money, I was long since 100% paid in full and he was coming off an over 6 month contiguous break from work. He told me he was unable to work Sep - Mar as his shop/home had no heating. I will have to go back and look but I'm pretty sure that was the same e-mail he told me that "No Christmas bonus, no incentive to continue work". Of course, I responded that his incentive should be that he was paid in full in advance for the work


----------



## froze

Too bad you don't live near him, heck it's too bad I don't live near him, I would love to have a little fun with the guy. I'm sure once I became friends with the guy he would be a true fast friend to you too.


----------



## SystemShock

Cycling_Guy said:


> And M-S,
> 
> Thank you for your practical suggestion. Unfortunately, about 18 months ago Mr. Gust told me in an e-mail that his phone service would be turned off due to lack of payment and he therefore would have no telephone or Internet service thus relegating us to regular mail communications only. His phone service was never terminated but he nonetheless has lived to the "regular mail only" posture. I sent him 5 self-addressed, stamped envelopes and began communicating via regular mail. He responded twice via regular mail. Both mails abusive. One, he sent after I wrote him with a proposed outline for delivery of the products I'm 100% paid in advance for he responded with "A good client of mine, Neil L., once told me: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results." He added in hand writing that "Your account has been charged $50" for the writing of the letter. Of course, he was referencing my multiple attempts to reach some sort of agreement with him.
> 
> There is a simple bottom line - once he had extracted all the money that I had to give, he discarded me like so much garbage.











.


----------



## Andy M-S

Yeah, doesn't sound like too much shared interest there. Sounds like a contract case now.


----------



## Blue Star

I can only add to the mountain of advice you've already received by pointing out that if you have retained a lawyer at an hourly rate, your expenses are going to continue to mount.

Going after a guy like that is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. He is most likely mentally ill, on social assistance and, as a result, has immunity from his creditors. If you do have lawyer, make sure his fees are conditional upon retrieval of your money... now good luck finding a lawyer who'll do that!


----------



## froze

Blue Star said:


> I can only add to the mountain of advice you've already received by pointing out that if you have retained a lawyer at an hourly rate, your expenses are going to continue to mount.
> 
> Going after a guy like that is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. He is most likely mentally ill, on social assistance and, as a result, has immunity from his creditors. If you do have lawyer, make sure his fees are conditional upon retrieval of your money... now good luck finding a lawyer who'll do that!



Here's the deal, the poster has the means to buy a nice bike, in fact a couple from this guy. Since that's true he also has the means to to pursue legal action against him, sure it may be trying to squeeze blood from a stone but the faulker needs to be stopped, and really this is fraud, and this is the angle I would pursue and have that guy put into jail for awhile; on top of having the courts do all the asset retentions plans I mentioned earlier. But the money is not the issue, the issue is this guy is a punk and needs to be given a lesson in life, and if that requires some legal fees to accomplish that then so be it.

I like the idea of putting a contract out on him, but then that would take away all the fun I could think of having with him.


----------



## foto

froze said:


> Here's the deal, the poster has the means to buy a nice bike, in fact a couple from this guy. Since that's true he also has the means to to pursue legal action against him, sure it may be trying to squeeze blood from a stone but the faulker needs to be stopped, and really this is fraud, and this is the angle I would pursue and have that guy put into jail for awhile; on top of having the courts do all the asset retentions plans I mentioned earlier. *But the money is not the issue, the issue is this guy is a punk and needs to be given a lesson in life, and if that requires some legal fees to accomplish that then so be it.*
> 
> I like the idea of putting a contract out on him, but then that would take away all the fun I could think of having with him.


So we can assume you are willing to foot the bill for the lawyer, right?


----------



## froze

foto said:


> So we can assume you are willing to foot the bill for the lawyer, right?


Welcome back!!! I was wondering when all the love for me would return. I hope you're feeling better.


----------



## nightfend

As I recall at the beginning of this whole thing, the OP lives in Japan or something like that. So I have a feeling Desperado is simply a criminal that knows that someone living out of country will have a hard time pursuing him.


----------



## dongringo

It's not only fraud, it's theft. I'm really surprised that the police can't do anything about this. As long as there's a paper trail ( as well as his admissions ), can't this be pursued criminally? I don't get it.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

There really is no doubt that all of you are correct. Laurence Barney Gust uses Desperado Cycles as his prop for ripping people off. There is also no doubt in my mind that he has done things like this to others over and over. He just knows the ropes too well. But, as some have indicated, the justice process is not quick, pleasant or cheap. I'm paying and will continue to do so. Do I want my money back? Of course I do. But, there is a greater purpose here - he does not simply walk away from this one. He now stands in the light of day for others to see. I do not know if he is mentally ill. I suppose one could argue that choosing to be the reduced figure that he is equals illness but it could also simply equal a personal choice. He has no desire to work, he does lives off of public assistance and is a well practiced confidence man. I'm actually not a very big fan of placing my fellow human being in a cage. There are times action like that is required but I do not think this is one of those cases. However, I do believe he has forfeited his rights to ever be the owner/proprietor of a business, again and I do believe the justice system should require him to pay my money back by the fastest means available.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

dongringo,

We had/have no written contract. If we did, I could request the District Attorney to prosecute him. This is one of the great lessons I learned. I'll never enter any significant arrangement again without a written and signed contract. I highly encourage everyone else to do the same. He really is in no danger of criminal prosecution. But, as I said before, I have every confidence he knows that. That said, there is the concept of good faith which he has broken. The paper trail, as it were, is beyond overwhelming. His lies, deceits and blatant bad faith dealing overlap themselves in e-mail after e-mail and also on his website. I can very comfortably state that absolutely everything he says is dishonest to some degree. He says and does the next underhanded thing to cover the last dishonest and underhanded thing. Plus, he does so with incredible outward confidence. He knows he will largely walk through the rain drops. The moment you give him money it is spent or shunted away. Once you talk to him for awhile and get past the well thought out and well practiced "I want to live minimally" facade you will find a man who absolutely believes he is entitled to your money (possibly mental fallout from his long term living off of social assistance which is his choice as opposed to necessity due to circumstances outside of his control) and if you ask anything in return (like the products and services he agreed to provide for the money you've paid him) he believes you are now taking advantage of him. This will become apparent once you've paid in full, have had timeline after timeline blown and eventually call him to insist that immovable timelines be established. You will then be in my position. He will have your money, he will create fantasies as to why you owe him much, much more and he will accuse you of being the low-brow advantage taker. Once it is clear you are not going to send even more money he will simply cease all communications. He's onto the next thing.


----------



## dongringo

Nothing but a lowlife scam artist. He broke the law when he stole your money and the money of who knows how many others. For this and this alone, I for one believe he belongs in a cage.


----------



## King Arthur

First and foremost, you need a contract. Especially for an amount of money you claim was spent to obtain this machine. The items outlined in a contract, setups expectations, time limits, and penalties
when needed. Bad situation all the way around


----------



## Cycling_Guy

I believe justice would be removing his right to ever own or manage any business, pay back the money he has been shown to owe others through his blatantly dishonest practices and be required to obtain work that will permit him to live, pay taxes, etc. and begin the process of becoming an upstanding member of society. Very few of us are beyond recovering. 

“A Man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” Ben Franklin


----------



## froze

Well there you have it. No fan of people in cages. That's why we have repeat offenders like child molesters who go to jail for a year or two get out and do it again. God forbid we put a person in jail who seems to relish in committing fraud, God forbid we try to stop a person from committing fraud against anyone else. Sorry I don't get that crap. But hey, it's your money thus you own it.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Cycling_Guy said:


> dongringo,
> 
> We had/have no written contract. If we did, I could request the District Attorney to prosecute him. This is one of the great lessons I learned. I'll never enter any significant arrangement again without a written and signed contract. I highly encourage everyone else to do the same. He really is in no danger of criminal prosecution. But, as I said before, I have every confidence he knows that. That said, there is the concept of good faith which he has broken. The paper trail, as it were, is beyond overwhelming. His lies, deceits and blatant bad faith dealing overlap themselves in e-mail after e-mail and also on his website. I can very comfortably state that absolutely everything he says is dishonest to some degree. He says and does the next underhanded thing to cover the last dishonest and underhanded thing. Plus, he does so with incredible outward confidence. He knows he will largely walk through the rain drops. The moment you give him money it is spent or shunted away. Once you talk to him for awhile and get past the well thought out and well practiced "I want to live minimally" facade you will find a man who absolutely believes he is entitled to your money (possibly mental fallout from his long term living off of social assistance which is his choice as opposed to necessity due to circumstances outside of his control) and if you ask anything in return (like the products and services he agreed to provide for the money you've paid him) he believes you are now taking advantage of him. This will become apparent once you've paid in full, have had timeline after timeline blown and eventually call him to insist that immovable timelines be established. You will then be in my position. He will have your money, he will create fantasies as to why you owe him much, much more and he will accuse you of being the low-brow advantage taker. Once it is clear you are not going to send even more money he will simply cease all communications. He's onto the next thing.



C_G, 

my guess is, his pattern of deceit and fraud has gone unchecked because he's successfully (and repeatedly) hedged his bets that people will give up and go away rather than hassle with the psychological fatigue of calling him to the carpet.

My hat's off to you for your determination and backbone in this matter. 

Perhaps in you, he's hit the end of his rope of lies.


----------



## T K

Cycling guy, I feel bad for you. I feel bad this jerk took you for so much money. I wish you the best. The end.


----------



## froze

You can give that man any title you want, I don't care, fraud is fraud whether he's mentally ill or not. Again that's akin to letting a serial killer go because, golly he's mentally ill, he didn't really mean it, maybe he considers himself to be an artist in his killings, we should allow him to express his form of art freely. Whatever, like I said before, that's your thing.


----------



## froze

T K said:


> Cycling guy, I feel bad for you. I feel bad this jerk took you for so much money. I think you are a good guy but you are a weenie. I think you are a week schmuck who lives in a fantasy land. It is people like you who let scum like Gust exist.
> This story has gone on too long. I wish you the best.


This is exactly correct, this is what feeds ALL PUNKS, punks feed off of weenies, and that punk found his weenie he can slap around and laugh about it daring you to do anything knowing you won't do a darn thing about it.

I agree, this story has gone on too long.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

froze said:


> Well there you have it. No fan of people in cages. That's why we have repeat offenders like child molesters who go to jail for a year or two get out and do it again. God forbid we put a person in jail who seems to relish in committing fraud, God forbid we try to stop a person from committing fraud against anyone else. Sorry I don't get that crap. But hey, it's your money thus you own it.


Froze,

You misunderstand. For example, I personally believe a convicted child molester should never, under any circumstances be permitted back into society. They've traded in their human card. As for Laurence Gust/Jalon Hawk, I do not see where incarceration will do any good. Of course, it is punishment. But, it's punishment for punishment sake. He should be required to openly and publicly work off what he has done. He should be required to at least behave like an upstanding person for a few years in the hopes the behavior becomes habitual. If you think for a second that I am not so angry with him that I could throttle him you are mistaken. However, unlike Mr. Gust, I hold myself to a standard. That standard becomes most important in circumstances like this when it is not easy.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

You know guys, if I let myself think and behave righteously indignant, that since I've been taken advantage of that whatever I do is justified then how would I be different from the guy who took advantage of me? Only my cause would be different. I'm using the system that is in place for this sort of thing. Time, effort and money are all being used. The system is the system. I do not believe it is people like me who let the Laurence Gust's/Jalon Hawk's of the world exist. I am doing what I believe I can. I'm telling all of you and I'm walking the situation through the legal system.


----------



## Coolhand

*Moderator's Note*

Two infractions issued- lay off the personal stuff or posting vacations shall follow.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Guys, 

I thank you for your input. All of it. For example, my take on your latest posts is that you want me to "snap out of it". You want me to see this character for what he is and conduct myself accordingly. It's all good stuff. I really do thank you and appreciate what you are saying and meaning.


----------



## dongringo

Continue to take it to him Cycling_Guy. Make him pay one way or another. All the best to you.


----------



## SystemShock

Hang in there, Cycling_Guy.
.


----------



## froze

I got the same infraction. Unfortunately in life there comes times when a person needs to be slapped around to wake up, and being all nicey nice and politically correct just will not, and had not worked...this was one of those times. A person has to stand up for themselves when wronged against, otherwise they will continue to be abused, and for whatever reasons this wasn't getting through to him. Sooooo we got a little rough, at least he knows where we stand on the issue and what he should be doing to stop it. But somehow I get the feeling he's going to continue his course of action that he's been using for over a year thinking he's going to get a different result but still get the same result...more abuse. And we all know what the definition of insanity is.

By the way monitors; I gladly accept this infraction and others in the future if politically correctness is not working, and being not very nice by some small chance wakes the person up then I will take that chance and do just that. Call it a forewarning. It took a lot of political correctness to get myself and another poster to that point, enough was enough. I'll probably get another infraction or banned just saying what I just said.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Froze,

While I understand and actually appreciate the sentiment, I honestly do not know what direction you are trying to push me. I am pursuing him legally. This is not a criminal manner. Believe me, I'm not paying lawyers to just do what is convenient. The law says this is a civil matter. According to the laws of Wisconsin, Mr. Gust is in no danger of criminal prosecution for what he has done to me. That is due 100% to the fact I did not have a written contract. So it goes. You mentioned fraud. Fraud is both a crime and a violation of civil law. Criminal fraud is actually a complicated charge with a number of steps to prove. These things have been looked into.


----------



## froze

Cycling_Guy said:


> Froze,
> 
> While I understand and actually appreciate the sentiment, I honestly do not know what direction you are trying to push me. I am pursuing him legally. This is not a criminal manner. Believe me, I'm not paying lawyers to just do what is convenient. The law says this is a civil matter. According to the laws of Wisconsin, Mr. Gust is in no danger of criminal prosecution for what he has done to me. That is due 100% to the fact I did not have a written contract. So it goes. You mentioned fraud. Fraud is both a crime and a violation of civil law. Criminal fraud is actually a complicated charge with a number of steps to prove. These things have been looked into.


I'm glad you're taking the steps and doing something about it then. I hope you win. Not sure if you'll win monetary award, but at least win to the point of that all of his possessions have liens and judgments against effectively preventing him from either selling or doing business till he satisfies your complaint. Personally like I said before I would make his life VERY miserable, and if legally that means pressing the fraud charge then I would, and I wouldn't even bat an eye about the complexity of the matter.

Good luck. I will refrain any further comments on this subject, other just to say I hate it when people take advantage of another person.


----------



## laxpatrick

*Hawk in the media*

There was an article in today's Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, business aection, this freak was quoted - lmao.


----------



## bikerjulio

laxpatrick said:


> There was an article in today's Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, business aection, this freak was quoted - lmao.


link?


----------



## Oxtox

bikerjulio said:


> link?


jeezus, dude...don't you know how to google stuff?

this took 3 seconds to find...

Wisconsin home to nation's top custom bike builders


----------



## laxpatrick

Wisconsin home to nation's top custom bike builders - m.JSOnline.com


----------



## martinrjensen

I still have a hard time comprehending the amount of money you paid for this bike. It was a complete bike, not just a frame correct? There has to be more to this story than what you are saying. A lot of it just doesn't make sense. If this offends you, I'm sorry about that but really....


----------



## Cinelli 82220

martinrjensen said:


> I still have a hard time comprehending the amount of money you paid for this bike. It was a complete bike, not just a frame correct? There has to be more to this story than what you are saying. A lot of it just doesn't make sense. If this offends you, I'm sorry about that but really....


Lazy journalism, the reporter should have Googled him before using him as a source. 
Good thread on him on MTBR. One guy has dealt with him and expresses a low opinion of his character and workmanship. Beware of the Desperado - Page 2 - Mtbr Forums


----------



## foto

No!!! Not the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel!!!


----------



## martinrjensen

So I was reading some old posts on this issue and You mentioned opening a complaint with the BBB in 2011. The complaint is closed now and he has a A- rating? I'm really getting confused by all this. Also all this was for, (at a minimum), 2 frame builds and a restore correct? Verbal agreements are still binding you know....


----------



## Cycling_Guy

martinrjens,

When boiled down, the situation really isn't very difficult to understand. You might take exception and roll your eyes at what I paid, etc., but the situation is straight forward. I paid a lot of money to have 1 complete custom bicycle made, a second custom frame and I purchased a Schwinn frame, fork and gas tank from Lawrence Gust/Jalon Hawk of Desperado cycles. To date, I've received nothing. I did place a complaint with the Wisconsin BBB. Mr. Gust responded to the complaint and the BBB closed the issue. I called them and they told me that they attempt to facilitate discussions between parties but nothing else. If the parties continue to disagree, that is what the legal system is for. They are not a government entity and wield no influence. Period. Verbal agreements are legally binding. However, at least in my case/circumstances the lack of signed contract makes this a civil matter. I continue to plod through the system. Things are in motion. Really best to leave it at that for the moment. I do apologize for the vagueness but right now it is the best way. What I can say is the system is not quick, pain free or cheap. Please keep this in mind when choosing a builder. I've said it in this thread before - I implore everyone to build with their hearts but choose your builder with your head.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Update - as the civil case against Mr. Gust moves forward, he has decided to counter sue. Apparently, he (with the assistance of a few lawyers) is forwarding the idea that my honest recounting of his dishonest behavior has negatively impacted his business. Obviously, that is my opinion of what he is doing as opposed to being what he actually stated. His filing was a start to finish set of lies and manipulation of circumstances. I feel very confident that will "come out in the wash".


----------



## LONDON-GUY

Good luck CG I hope it turns out good for you


----------



## bikerjulio

This is one case I'd like to see on Judge Judy.

Would make a change from all the "loan or gift?" and "bad tenant?/bad landlord?" cases.

seriously - hope it works out


----------



## billium v2.0

Cycling_Guy said:


> Update - as the civil case against Mr. Gust moves forward, he has decided to counter sue................I feel very confident that will "come out in the wash".


Wow. 

After reading this thread in its entirety, Wow.

Cycling_Guy, how much have you incurred in legal expenses to date pursuing this matter? What's the best case scenario your attorney suggests you can _realistically_ expect?

Regardless of my opinion of how you arrived at where you're at, I do applaud your restraint. I'd have gone the way of personal satisfaction that likely would have bordered on libel and given legs to his counter-suit.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

billium v2.0,

Thank you. I really shouldn't present things as fact or likely to be fact at this point. While I haven't been told not to, it just doesn't feel appropriate. Not at this point. I hope that doesn't come across as rude or me being short with you. I'm just not comfortable with guessing or forecasting right now. 

As for personal satisfaction - that really isn't in the cards. I'm not in anyway happy about this and derive no satisfaction from going through this process. It simply has to be done. I do not find it appropriate or correct for Mr. Gust to conduct himself in such a despicable manner and walk away without it being brought to light. But again, there is no satisfaction. Do you have any idea how bad it feels, no matter how true it is to show how reduced a fellow human being has chosen to let himself become? I feel like I'm in a movie. You know the type where an unfortunate human characteristic is presented in an overblown, outrageous manner. In the movies, there is a real entertainment value because it is so outlandish. In "real life", it deeply saddens.


----------



## T K

So, anything new to report on this?


----------



## Dajianshan

I think in the this coming season we find out that Jalon Hawk was really not shot and killed, but the OP wakes up to find him in the shower… cooking meth.


----------



## Flieger67

Desperado Cycles' website hadn't been updated since August 2012.


----------



## steel515

On mtbr.com someone posted this Case Details for 2012CV000141 in Langlade County
It looks like it was just settled.


----------



## froze

Huge Congrats goes out to Gus, hopefully he'll get his money without the headache of doing liens to get the money a long time from now. I think Vannon will do whatever it takes not to pay the money, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see...if we ever hear about it again.


----------



## SystemShock

froze said:


> Huge Congrats goes out to Gus, hopefully he'll get his money without the headache of doing liens to get the money a long time from now. I think Vannon will do whatever it takes not to pay the money, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see...if we ever hear about it again.


Don't you have that backwards? 

Lawrence Gust is the jerkwad con man over at Desperado Cycles, and Vannon Stambaugh is the guy who had to drag 'im into court to get his money back.

The document says that Lawrence Gust is the defendant, and Vannon is the plantiff. The judgement was in favor of the plantiff.


----------



## mikerp

Based on the info and my knowledge of ppl, my guess is it will be a long time to collect if ever. I doubt Gust has any money in the bank or can sell something off to raise the funds, he more than likely used all the funds received to support himself living the dream of making custom bikes. Gust didn't have a lawyer, his address looks to be a rural mortgaged piece of low value property.


----------



## froze

SystemShock said:


> Don't you have that backwards?
> 
> Lawrence Gust is the jerkwad con man over at Desperado Cycles, and Vannon Stambaugh is the guy who had to drag 'im into court to get his money back?
> 
> The document says that Lawrence Gust is the defendant, and Vannon is the plantiff. The judgement was in favor of the plantiff.


Your correct, I did get that backwards by name, I was glad that Desperado lost and I meant to say congrats to Vannon. Sorry


----------



## SystemShock

froze said:


> Your correct, I did get that backwards by name, I was glad that Desperado lost and I meant to say congrats to Vannon. Sorry


No prob. It's just that it'd be ironic if we were to accidentally 'Internet smear' the victim's name after all he's been through with that creep.


----------



## T K

You think Gust even showed up to court? I would have loved to hear his defense.
I'm glad Vannon won his case. To bad it happened and will probably never see all of his money again. I sure hope he does though.


----------



## Ventruck

Followed this thread for a while. Pretty much apart from what was said early, there wasn't anything to add and just hoped for the best. Sounds like it finally happened. Good for OP.


----------



## SystemShock

Hey Vannon, any further news/a post-mortem?


----------



## Cycling_Guy

OK. Finally done. The initial judgment in my favor was a default judgment as Mr. Gust did not appear. That judgment was vacated in favor of a trial. Mr. Gust chose to attend this time. I ended up doing better. So, it is no longer a matter of personal opinion or judgment passed without all the facts being presented. Mr. Laurence Barney Gust II, owner/proprietor of Desperado Cycles is um, well, a dishonest, unethical, integrity-free, advantage taking, low brow dirtbag. I can only suggest to anyone looking to have a custom bicycle made to take this now fact into consideration when choosing a builder.

My thanks to all who offered sound advice, commiseration and when needed a good whack to the back of my head.


----------



## robt57

Cycling_Guy said:


> OK. Finally done. The initial judgment in my favor was a default judgment as Mr. Gust did not appear. That judgment was vacated in favor of a trial. Mr. Gust chose to attend this time. I ended up doing better.


Ok, so you got a judgement. Have you been paid, or been made an offer to hold him harmless and settle for other than the full amount??

Wish you the best on this. Sounds like he see them coming and 'chi-hing' happens. Guys like that seem to always use OPM, So who is he going to screw to make any payment to use furthers the pain, distributes perhaps I should say.


----------



## bikerjulio

Good, I guess. Other than the satisfaction, did you get any compensation?


----------



## Cycling_Guy

Yes, I received a monetary judgment in my favor. It just finished half an hour ago so the paperwork is being done now. Of course, then onto the next phase.


----------



## Gregory Taylor

Cycling_Guy said:


> Yes, I received a monetary judgment in my favor. It just finished half an hour ago so the paperwork is being done now. Of course, then onto the next phase.


The next phase being attempting to collect on the judgment. Good luck with that...

My guess: he has no money to pay a judgment, and no property to seize or sell. If he has a job, you might be able to garnish his wages.


----------



## ms6073

Cut-n-paste from Nolo.com Wisconsin Wage Garnishment Law:



> In Wisconsin, the most that can be garnished from your wages are 20% of your disposable earnings, or the amount by which your disposable earnings exceed 30 times the federal minimum wage (30 x $7.25 = $217.50) whichever is less.


----------



## froze

If the business is owned by Gust then why not put a lien on assets if he doesn't pay?


----------



## Camilo

Cycling_Guy said:


> ... Mr. Laurence Barney Gust II, owner/proprietor of Desperado Cycles is um, well, a dishonest, unethical, integrity-free, advantage taking, low brow dirtbag. ....


All the adjectives and nouns are probably apt, but the simple truth appears you forgot the simplest and most accurate noun: THIEF, adjective, common.


----------



## froze

Camilo said:


> All the adjectives and nouns are probably apt, but the simple truth appears you forgot the simplest and most accurate noun: THIEF, adjective, common.


Not only does Gust steal from others but he's stolen from himself! Yup, he's stolen from himself a larger more profitable life long business just to gain a bit of money for the short term. Greed never wins in the long run.


----------



## crossracer

Well glad this is over. Has it really been over. 6 years since this started? Glad you got a judgement, sorry about all the heartburn.

Bill


----------



## paredown

Cycling_Guy said:


> OK. Finally done.


Holy chit--I thought this was thread dredge Thursday material!

Congrats--and best of luck getting your judgement satisfied.


----------



## Cycling_Guy

froze said:


> Not only does Gust steal from others but he's stolen from himself! Yup, he's stolen from himself a larger more profitable life long business just to gain a bit of money for the short term. Greed never wins in the long run.


I shudder to think how long Laurence Barney Gust has lurked in the shadows taking advantage of others. I can absolutley guarantee this has happened. A few people have come forward to give examples of how he has used them. I have now had to deal with the man for years and I can unfortunately assure you that there is no circumstance he will not try to twist or manipulate to his advantage, no inappropriate impression he will not attempt to present, no outright lie he will not tell to either cover his tracks or forward himself. There is no rock he will not crawl out from under. Nothing is beneath him. You don't get to that point overnight. It is my opinion he is beneath consideration on any and every front. There is not a single point of value in the man. He has reduced himself to that point.


----------



## billium v2.0

Cycling_Guy said:


> I shudder to think how long Laurence Barney Gust has lurked in the shadows taking advantage of others. I can absolutley guarantee this has happened. A few people have come forward to give examples of how he has used them. I have now had to deal with the man for years and I can unfortunately assure you that there is no circumstance he will not try to twist or manipulate to his advantage, no inappropriate impression he will not attempt to present, no outright lie he will not tell to either cover his tracks or forward himself. There is no rock he will not crawl out from under. Nothing is beneath him. You don't get to that point overnight. It is my opinion he is beneath consideration on any and every front. There is not a single point of value in the man. He has reduced himself to that point.


Cycling_Guy:

A sincere tip of my hat at both your personal restraint in this matter as well as faith in our justice system.

As to your moving forward from here as it relates to your money judgement....a few thoughts. I'll preface them with the standard "I'm no lawyer" as well as "consult your state's code/statutes", etc.

That written, I've had to collect on more than a few money judgements, all in Iowa. The state allows a "judgement debtor examination" by the judgement holder and/or its council. In simplest form, the judgement holder schedules an examination of the debtor via the Court of Jurisdiction. Debtor is notified of time/place (recommend having notification served by sheriff if an option - tends to get debtor's attention). Holder must secure a court reporter to transcribe the examination. If debtor appears, they are sworn in and judgement holder can interrogate debtor as to bank accounts-locations-account numbers/assets/income/etc. I've asked to see contents of wallets, requested to accompany debtor to an ATM machine/bank office to witness withdrawal of all funds available in an account. Cash advance availability of credit cards/home equity lines of credit. If they refuse to answer, a judge is brought into the proceedings and if the questions are deemed reasonable, the definition of contempt and consequences thereof are explained to the debtor. My experience has been that if you're going to get at least some of your money, you'll have a good idea at the end of the first debtor exam. It is a bit of a chess match, as in all my cases, the judgements could be extinquished in bankruptcy. 

Request a copy of the transcript as proof of debtor's responses. 

If it's apparent that any repayment is unlikely, I request repeat debtor exams on a monthly basis. Bring past transcripts along to compare answers. Debtor usually gets tired of the process and comes up with money or files for bankruptcy.

Don't limit yourself to cash as form of repayment. I've had two cars and a boat signed over to our business as partial payment. We needed to come to an agreement as to the value of the asset with the debtor prior to acceptance, but it worked to collect part of our judgement in those cases. Suggest using more than one "Arm's Length Third Party" to give written estimates in determining value. One of the cars still had debt against it with a credit union, but there was several thousand dollars of equity in it above what was owed against it. We secured the credit union's approval prior to the transfer and paid off the outstanding debt with them once the debtor signed off.

Best of luck.


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## orange_julius

Congrats, cycling_guy! Glad to hear that the judgement(s) was in your favor. Thanks for your persistence, and also for your sharing your experience for all others to learn about. Let's hope you get your money soon, and that you can get your dream bike from a reputable builder soon, too!


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## SystemShock

Anyone else get a weird, cray-cray PM from a now-banned new user, which said something along the lines of, "Vannon [the plantiff] sued a dying man who's undergoing chemo, he conned [Gust] into making a custom frame" (how do you even do that?), and "please post this because I as a new user cannot." ???

Gee, who have we heard about repeatedly in this thread who'd have a motive to try to anonymously get Vannon's name smeared? Who indeed, who indeed... 

Or, possibly, some other douchenozzle is playing an awfully lame troll joke. Either way, spare us the drama, lame-ass.


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## SystemShock

ps- Given a pretty obvious shill/anti-Vannon post done over at bikeforums.net:

Desperado Cycles 'dealing with the best' (lolzers)

also from a very low post-count 'new user' at the time... yeah, I think I know where that cray-cray PM came from.


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## Gregory Taylor

SystemShock said:


> Anyone else get a weird, cray-cray PM from a now-banned new user, which said something along the lines of, "Vannon [the plantiff] sued a dying man who's undergoing chemo, he conned [Gust] into making a custom frame" (how do you even do that?), and "please post this because I as a new user cannot." ???
> 
> Gee, who have we heard about repeatedly in this thread who'd have a motive to try to anonymously get Vannon's name smeared? Who indeed, who indeed...
> 
> Or, possibly, some other douchenozzle is playing an awfully lame troll joke. Either way, spare us the drama, lame-ass.


Yup. I reported it.


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## paredown

SystemShock said:


> Anyone else get a weird, cray-cray PM from a now-banned new user, which said something along the lines of, "Vannon [the plantiff] sued a dying man who's undergoing chemo, he conned [Gust] into making a custom frame" (how do you even do that?), and "please post this because I as a new user cannot." ???
> 
> Gee, who have we heard about repeatedly in this thread who'd have a motive to try to anonymously get Vannon's name smeared? Who indeed, who indeed...
> 
> Or, possibly, some other douchenozzle is playing an awfully lame troll joke. Either way, spare us the drama, lame-ass.


Some user that I find no trace of tried to PM me--but my box was full. I want the five minutes or so back that I spent looking for him.


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## SystemShock

Anyone want me to post the PM? It's pretty unintentionally hilarious.


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## love4himies

SystemShock said:


> Anyone want me to post the PM? It's pretty unintentionally hilarious.


I'm always in for a good laugh.


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## pmf

Add me in. 

$5k for a set of wheels? 

Kind of amazing all the people who were here in 2011 that aren't any more. Where did they go? Real jobs?


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## bikerjulio

the PM was this



> Vanon is a liar (cycling_guy)
> You have just won a case against a guy who has just completed his 9th chemo to try to rid himself of leukemia. He is on state aid and they 1st rights to his house. To bad you paid all this money to your lawyer. You got lucky because he could not afford a lawyer. You sued a dying man. You had him do 6 months of work and then pulled out. What an a-hole. You must be proud. I know allot of his customers and they are all happy. You are one person who conned him into making you a custom bike. He put his time and money for material to build it. Then you pulled out. Have fun paying for your lawyer and that big meaningless win in court.


I actually did not make the connection when I read it. Just thought it was some crazy person randomly PM'ing

ps

My knowledge of things in the USA is based almost entirely on watching Judge Judy, from which it appears that about 85% of Americans are either grossly overweight or on some form of government aid, or both, and just trying to screw with the system. So, good luck OP but I don't think you'll ever see a penny of your settlement. Now if you'd gone on JJ, we would have had some entertainment, and you'd have probably got $5,000 in your hands.


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## Cycling_Guy

Billium v2.0,
Thank you so much for your insightful, rubber-meets-the-road comments. I think there is a lot of meat there. Very much appreciated.


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## SystemShock

bikerjulio said:


> the PM was this
> 
> I actually did not make the connection when I read it. Just thought it was some crazy person randomly PM'ing
> 
> ps
> 
> My knowledge of things in the USA is based almost entirely on watching Judge Judy, from which it appears that about 85% of Americans are either grossly overweight or on some form of government aid, or both, and just trying to screw with the system. So, good luck OP but I don't think you'll ever see a penny of your settlement. Now if you'd gone on JJ, we would have had some entertainment, and you'd have probably got $5,000 in your hands.



Yup, that's the cray-cray PM. I shudder to think of the maturity level of the person who wrote it. 

Far as Vannon collecting his judgement, who knows, it may just be a matter of extreme persistence – as was obtaining his judgement in the first place. But even if he doesn't get any money off of con-man Laurence Gust/'Jalon Hawk', he's very likely saved a number of other ppl from getting ripped off. 

If you google Desperado Cycles or Jalon Hawk, this thread is one of the top hits. Anyone who did any research at all on potential custom builders could dodge this bullet (and anyone who doesn't kinda deserves what they get... caveat emptor n' all that  ).


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## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*

I banned the PM-ing new user\troll, and if he ever comes back he will not like the results.


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## mikerp

This is the one I received.
"You have just won a case against a guy who has just completed his 9th chemo to try to rid himself of leukemia. He is on state aid and they 1st rights to his house. To bad you paid all this money to your lawyer. You got lucky because he could not afford a lawyer. You sued a dying man. You had him do 6 months of work and then pulled out. What an a-hole. You must be proud. I know allot of his customers and they are all happy. You are one person who conned him into making you a custom bike. He put his time and money for material to build it. Then you pulled out. Have fun paying for your lawyer and that big meaningless win in court."


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## Aindreas

pmf said:


> Kind of amazing all the people who were here in 2011 that aren't any more. Where did they go? Real jobs?


Coolhand kicked us out and made us go play on Facebook.


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## special_one_5533

*jaylon Hawk*

just a post in saying I was a friend of Jaylon Hawk ....very troubled with cancer he felt bad about all the jobs unfinished, trying to do things was very hard while dying. He had a good heart but, the cancer was so hard to deal with. It's why he tried to just pull out of society to mend his life and waked and biked so fiercly trying to beat the cancer. It won, and many did not understand what happened until it was too late! I had a few good times with him and hope I made it l little happier for him towards the end.. Kathy I tried to post this as a regular forum, but couldn't


Len J said:


> I Guess
> 
> 
> Frame $2.0K
> Di2 $4.5K
> Lightweight wheels $5.0K
> Couplers $1.0K
> Custom Paint $1.0K
> Other $1.0K
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> Len


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## Cinelli 82220

special_one_5533 said:


> just a post in saying I was a friend of Jaylon Hawk ....very troubled with cancer he felt bad about all the jobs unfinished, trying to do things was very hard while dying. He had a good heart but, the cancer was so hard to deal with. It's why he tried to just pull out of society to mend his life and waked and biked so fiercly trying to beat the cancer. It won, and many did not understand what happened until it was too late! I had a few good times with him and hope I made it l little happier for him towards the end.. Kathy I tried to post this as a regular forum, but couldn't


Misplaced sympathy, or someone faking death to escape obligations.

Laurence Barney Gust should not have taken money for work he knew he could not do.


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## SystemShock

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Misplaced sympathy, or someone faking death to escape obligations.
> 
> Laurence Barney Gust should not have taken money for work he knew he could not do.


Yup.

Either the guy is dead, in which case, sympathies, but does not change the fact that he was a crook who took advantage of people...

...or, he's not dead, and this is just more sad BS from said crook and/or crook's cronies. 

Would be nice-but-not-necessary if Vannon (the guy who won the settlement off of crooked Laurence Gust) weighed in here as to the life-status of said Mr. Gust... but again, wouldn't change the 'crook' part of Mr. Gust's description.

Given the immaturity and name-calling from either Mr. Gust or a friend in some weird PMs that were sent to me and some other members of this forum (see post #386 and others, above), there's a non-zero chance this is another trick. Sadly. 

If he really is dead, condolences, but doesn't really change anything.


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## T K

special_one_5533 said:


> just a post in saying I was a friend of Jaylon Hawk ....very troubled with cancer he felt bad about all the jobs unfinished, trying to do things was very hard while dying. He had a good heart but, the cancer was so hard to deal with. It's why he tried to just pull out of society to mend his life and waked and biked so fiercly trying to beat the cancer. It won, and many did not understand what happened until it was too late! I had a few good times with him and hope I made it l little happier for him towards the end.. Kathy I tried to post this as a regular forum, but couldn't


💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩


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