# Gatorskins feel slower, am I crazy..



## Hyder (May 30, 2013)

So after a sidewall issues with my Conti GP4000 II, I just put on a set of Gatorskins. I have no data, proof or really anything to go on except that I did my normal 25mile loop and.... I just felt like it was harder to move and I felt slower. Is it all in my head because I switched tires? If it is psychological, I am having a hard time letting go.

Anyone else feel slower on the Gators??


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Hyder said:


> So after a sidewall issues with my Conti GP4000 II, I just put on a set of Gatorskins. I have no data, proof or really anything to go on except that I did my normal 25mile loop and.... I just felt like it was harder to move and I felt slower. Is it all in my head because I switched tires? If it is psychological, I am having a hard time letting go.
> 
> Anyone else feel slower on the Gators??


They have these devices called a watch with which you can time yourself. With this time information you can make useful comparisons, assuming you time yourself enough times so that it is statistically significant. Otherwise talking about "feelings" is best left to the psychiatrist's office (or Dr. Phil's show).


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

Hyder said:


> So after a sidewall issues with my Conti GP4000 II, I just put on a set of Gatorskins. I have no data, proof or really anything to go on except that I did my normal 25mile loop and.... I just felt like it was harder to move and I felt slower. Is it all in my head because I switched tires? If it is psychological, I am having a hard time letting go.
> 
> Anyone else feel slower on the Gators??


Gatorskins have higher rolling resistance than the 4000s. They will cost you ~ 10 watts which is equivalent to ~ 1 sec per km (not much of a concern if you ride for enjoyment only and do not race) but are more durable. They are a bit stiffer (clunky) so you might be feeling less compliance. They will loosen up a bit (break down the adhesions in the sidewall construction) and feel better after a few rides.

I train on Gatorskins with thorn resistant butyl tubes. They are slow but I do power based training and "watts is watts" regardless of speed.


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## Hyder (May 30, 2013)

Kerry Irons said:


> They have these devices called a watch with which you can time yourself. With this time information you can make useful comparisons, assuming you time yourself enough times so that it is statistically significant. Otherwise talking about "feelings" is best left to the psychiatrist's office (or Dr. Phil's show).


WOW thanks, you were spot on, where can I purchase one of the magical devices?? Do they sell them online or should I purchase locally? Since you were so insightful about my tires, what are your thought on Sram vs Shimano? My Shimano DA "FEELS" smoother but I "Feel" like I shift faster with Sram? any thoughts?? You rock man thanks a lot..


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Hyder said:


> WOW thanks, you were spot on, where can I purchase one of the magical devices??


If you're as slow as me you can just use a calendar.


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## Hyder (May 30, 2013)

AM999 said:


> Gatorskins have higher rolling resistance than the 4000s. They will cost you ~ 10 watts which is equivalent to ~ 1 sec per km (not much of a concern if you ride for enjoyment only and do not race) but are more durable. They are a bit stiffer (clunky) so you might be feeling less compliance. They will loosen up a bit (break down the adhesions in the sidewall construction) and feel better after a few rides.
> 
> I train on Gatorskins with thorn resistant butyl tubes. They are slow but I do power based training and "watts is watts" regardless of speed.


Thanks... That is the information I was looking for, I it was only one ride and my numbers were slower with my Garmin, but I was not sure if I was, well.. Just slower or it was the tires. They just felt different, cannot explain it.. the 4000 seem to just glide, but the Gators were well... Making me work... 

It was only one ride I will see if they improve over time it not, great commuter and trainer...

Thanks for the reply....


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

I felt it going in the other direction. The 4000s just felt like they rolled forever when you stop pedaling.


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## SROC3 (Jul 20, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> If you're as slow as me you can just use a calendar.


:biggrin5:


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## goldenstaph (Jul 28, 2011)

> Anyone else feel slower on the Gators??


Yep. I ride GP4000s in the summer and Gatorskin Hardshells in the winter and it's like I'm riding two different bikes. I think it's a combination of the increased rolling resistance plus the harshness of the ride.

They also feel like they have much less grip. Certainly cornering isn't as controlled


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Moving to 4000s from Gatorskins they felt faster but all my timed data / segments on Strava with power showed pretty much identical - certainly well within measurement accuracy considering other variables. I quit using Gatorskins because they are sooooo slick when there's any dampness on the pavement. My rain bike has GP 4 Seasons on it and while they feel similar to the Gatorskins from a comfort standpoint - they grab much much better when it's wet outside.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

Why not invest in a bike computer? There's a bunch out there from wired to wireless. I personally use a Garmin Edge 500, but used a Cateye wireless computer before that. The only reason why i switched is because I need a HRM after having two stents placed in my LAD in the past three years.

My last set of tires were Conti Grand GPS 4000 All Season tires, but kept getting flats. I switched back to Conti Gatorskins hardshell and haven't had a flat yet. For what it's worth, are you really that concerned about going a tad slower? Do you plan on becoming a racer? I'd say, just get out there and enjoy riding. If you are a few seconds or minutes slower, that means you have a few more minutes to enjoy pedaling. Don't get caught up in speed. Get out there and pedal and have fun.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

adjtogo said:


> Why not invest in a bike computer? There's a bunch out there from wired to wireless. I personally use a Garmin Edge 500, but used a Cateye wireless computer before that. The only reason why i switched is because I need a HRM after having two stents placed in my LAD in the past three years.
> 
> My last set of tires were Conti Grand GPS 4000 All Season tires, but kept getting flats. I switched back to Conti Gatorskins hardshell and haven't had a flat yet. For what it's worth, are you really that concerned about going a tad slower? Do you plan on becoming a racer? I'd say, just get out there and enjoy riding. If you are a few seconds or minutes slower, that means you have a few more minutes to enjoy pedaling. Don't get caught up in speed. Get out there and pedal and have fun.


It's all about what you are situationally looking for. Race (if you do) on the tires/tubes with the lowest rolling resistance (there are trade offs with aerodynamics and reliability) and train/ride on tires per your judgments on ride, rolling resistance, reliability, ... At the SoCal District TT a few years ago the top three riders in one age group were separated by less than one second. On the other hand a drove from NorCal to Louisville one year, raced one a fast but relatively fragile tire, and flatted (fortunately my wife did very well so the trip was a success).

There is a lot of information out there on Slowtwitch and Bike Tech Review among others.


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## RichardT (Dec 12, 2010)

Hyder said:


> So after a sidewall issues with my Conti GP4000 II, I just put on a set of Gatorskins. I have no data, proof or really anything to go on except that I did my normal 25mile loop and.... I just felt like it was harder to move and I felt slower. Is it all in my head because I switched tires? If it is psychological, I am having a hard time letting go.
> 
> Anyone else feel slower on the Gators??


Interesting - I had the same experience this past week. I also went from Conti GP4000 to Gatorskins due to a sidewall tear (and several recent flats), but I felt much more resistance and seemed to be slower with the Gatorskins. In my usual spirited group ride on Saturday, I struggled to keep up with the group. Later that day I took the wheels off my other bike since they had the 4000s on them, installed those wheels on the first bike. On this morning's ride I felt fine again. I know this isn't scientific, especially because I was using different wheels (as well as different tires) on the two rides, but I'm confident the Gatorskins are slower. I now regret buying them.


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## Troy G (Sep 30, 2013)

Went from Gatorskin Hardshells to Michelin GP 4 Service Course tires. Was surprised at the difference in ride quality. Speed difference, not so much.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

RichardT said:


> Interesting - I had the same experience this past week. I also went from Conti GP4000 to Gatorskins due to a sidewall tear (and several recent flats), but I felt much more resistance and seemed to be slower with the Gatorskins. In my usual spirited group ride on Saturday, I struggled to keep up with the group. Later that day I took the wheels off my other bike since they had the 4000s on them, installed those wheels on the first bike. On this morning's ride I felt fine again. I know this isn't scientific, especially because I was using different wheels (as well as different tires) on the two rides, but I'm confident the Gatorskins are slower. I now regret buying them.


Actually comparing a new Gatorskin with a used GP4000S you might be giving up ~ 20 watts (assuming both wheels) to the increased rolling resistance. If you are at the limit just to keep from being dropped on the group ride (been there many times) that would be enough to pop you off the back. Just think of the training it would take to add 20 watts. A further ~ 10 watts can be gained by switching to latex tubes instead of butyl. They are a bit trickier to install (push in the sidewall to make sure that nothing is sticking out under the beads before inflating).


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

Unless you have a bike computer and riding the same course, there's no proof that you're riding slower. And even one day to the next could make a difference in the way you pedal. Go buy yourself a bike computer and keep stats if you're worried about speed. I use a Garmin Edge 500. I can download data and keep track of my stats. If you're a speed freak, I'd recommend buying a set of lightweight racing tires. The Gatorskins do weigh more than racing tires. Speed shouldn't be your only goal. Just get out there and enjoy riding.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

adjtogo said:


> Unless you have a bike computer and riding the same course, there's no proof that you're riding slower. And even one day to the next could make a difference in the way you pedal. Go buy yourself a bike computer and keep stats if you're worried about speed. I use a Garmin Edge 500. I can download data and keep track of my stats. If you're a speed freak, I'd recommend buying a set of lightweight racing tires. The Gatorskins do weigh more than racing tires. Speed shouldn't be your only goal. Just get out there and enjoy riding.


There is absolute proof that higher rolling resistance of your tires results in reduced speed. But it again depends on what a person wants out of a tire. Weight of the tire is correlated with rolling resistance but is no guarantee. Weight is also inversely correlated with durability. Keeping day to day stats over a known course is not a reliable way to assess rolling resistance unless all other factors are equal (very unlikely) or accounted for in some way (Chung testing).

But you are right, get out there, be safe, and enjoy the ride with whatever tire you choose.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

AM999 said:


> There is absolute proof that higher rolling resistance of your tires results in reduced speed. But it again depends on what a person wants out of a tire. Weight of the tire is correlated with rolling resistance but is no guarantee. Weight is also inversely correlated with durability. Keeping day to day stats over a known course is not a reliable way to assess rolling resistance unless all other factors are equal (very unlikely) or accounted for in some way (Chung testing).
> 
> But you are right, get out there, be safe, and enjoy the ride with whatever tire you choose.


Maybe I should have been a little more clearer on what I meant.

Unless the poster is riding with a bike computer and keeps statistics on his daily ride and same exact route with the same exact temperature and atmospheric conditions, then there's absolutely no way he can say or prove that the Gatorskin tires are slower than his previous tires. He also has to take in his exertion level from the previous day's ride. If he's feeling fatigued from the previous day's ride, of course he's going to pedal slower.

Unless he's into racing and speed is important, I'll continue to say, just get out there and enjoy what mother nature provides.


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## SROC3 (Jul 20, 2009)

They are heavier.....so you may feel the difference but your legs will adapt pretty quick. When I moved from Gatorskins to GP4000s I felt the difference but after a couple of rides it "normalized" (for lack of a better word). If I rode a lot of terrible roads I would go the Gatorskins route. I ride Bontrager R3s now and they feel fine. Will most likely go back to GP4000 IIs after these wear out.


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## markg (Sep 18, 2005)

RichardT said:


> Interesting - I had the same experience this past week. I also went from Conti GP4000 to Gatorskins *due to a sidewall tear* (and several recent flats), but I felt much more resistance and seemed to be slower with the Gatorskins. In my usual spirited group ride on Saturday, I struggled to keep up with the group. Later that day I took the wheels off my other bike since they had the 4000s on them, installed those wheels on the first bike. On this morning's ride I felt fine again. I know this isn't scientific, especially because I was using different wheels (as well as different tires) on the two rides, but I'm confident the Gatorskins are slower. I now regret buying them.


Interesting that the only Conti sidewall failure I have had was with an Ultra Gatorskin in 25C about 3 years ago. I pretty much ride only the 4000S now on my road bike, as I have not had any reason in my Southern California riding to go back to the Gatorskins.


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## SROC3 (Jul 20, 2009)

markg said:


> Interesting that the only Conti sidewall failure I have had was with an Ultra Gatorskin in 25C about 3 years ago. I pretty much ride only the 4000S now on my road bike, as I have not had any reason in my Southern California riding to go back to the Gatorskins.


Yeah I was riding Gators when i first started riding looooong ago....I was just scared to flat. period. Now I realize that it does take pretty terrible roads to get flats often. Like yourself, i live in SoCal and am happy with most tires - especially Conti Gp4000s


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

adjtogo said:


> Maybe I should have been a little more clearer on what I meant.
> 
> Unless the poster is riding with a bike computer and keeps statistics on his daily ride and same exact route with the same exact temperature and atmospheric conditions, then there's absolutely no way he can say or prove that the Gatorskin tires are slower than his previous tires. He also has to take in his exertion level from the previous day's ride. If he's feeling fatigued from the previous day's ride, of course he's going to pedal slower.
> 
> Unless he's into racing and speed is important, I'll continue to say, just get out there and enjoy what mother nature provides.


You really can't do it by comparing data from day to day. There are never identical sets of conditions - 2 mph wind change is huge. The only way to do it is on rollers with a power meter for rolling resistance and using regression or the Chung method again using a power meter. Atomospheric conditions are then corrected for.

But for most who ride for fun this doesn't really matter.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

markg said:


> Interesting that the only Conti sidewall failure I have had was with an Ultra Gatorskin in 25C about 3 years ago. I pretty much ride only the 4000S now on my road bike, as I have not had any reason in my Southern California riding to go back to the Gatorskins.


I have sold thousands of 4000s and Gatorskins. I saw ~10 times more warranty issues with the 4000s, mainly beads pulling away from the sidewall.


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## Hyder (May 30, 2013)

OP here,

Probably should have responded sooner and cleared up the question a bit. I was out of town sorry..

I have a Garmin 500 and log over 200 miles a week, lots of it over the same loops so I have good data to compare. I had a side wall blow out on my 4000s II fairly close to a shop. I was far from home and it was early, I had been on the bike for about an hour. I went to the shop they were out of 4000s II and I needed to get home so I had them put on a Gatorskin on the rear. On the ride home it felt like I was slower. Like I said, no data at that time but felt slower. Soon as I walked in the door I posted the question. 
Now a few days later and doing some research online, lots of people said the tire is way slower.

Now for data, I have had a few days on them. I think they are a fine tire, they feel a tad heavy, seem to roll ok. I do not like having mismatched tires so I went and purchased a second one (needed new tires anyways) Looking at my data I am running close to the same on my speed and times in fact sometimes a little faster... I just feel it requires more effort and I seem to be a little more sore the next day. I am guessing great training tires.
I am going to call them a good training and commuting tire with the added peace of mind that I have a fighting chance against flats. I know they are not bomb proof but all in all decent tire.. I will go with the pro 4's or back to the 4000s II next time.. I just like them as a better all around tire.

As for racing, I have a nice set of full carbon tubulars I would never run 4000s or gators in a race.. both are fine for club and training rides. 

sorry for the confusion, I just rode home and walked in the door and posted the question with no research..

Thanks everyone for the responses.


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## ToffieBoi (May 1, 2011)

There is no way to test both tires, if you're not using some kind of machine designed for it.
Even same day, 2 different ride will feel different, because you can never give the same performance. Many, many variables.

But you can easily "feel" differences in two different tires.
We are riding our bikes almost everyday, and it is easy to spot the minimal changes. Only problem is, you can't prove that X tire is that much seconds faster than Y.

I recently switched from Conti GP PolyX 24mm to Michelin Pro4 Service Course 25mm.
Old tires measured 25mm on my wheels and new ones are 28. Both latex tubes.
I can feel that new tires are more comfortable, better traction and feels faster. But I can't be sure about it. Its the same with butyl and latex inner tubes. Latex feels faster...


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

ToffieBoi said:


> There is no way to test both tires, if you're not using some kind of machine designed for it.
> Even same day, 2 different ride will feel different, because you can never give the same performance. Many, many variables.
> 
> But you can easily "feel" differences in two different tires.
> ...


Tire and tube combinations can be tested under the same conditions using rollers. The rolling resistance coefficient of the Gatorskin is greater than that of the GP4000S resulting in ~ 10 watts difference. Latex is faster. See Bike Tech Review and Slowtwitch for more info.


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## LC (Jan 28, 2004)

I don't like Gatorskins on the front wheel since they have poor cornering grip and if the road is even slightly moist they slide out too easy. You can usually recover a slight slip on the rear wheel so they make for a good long lasting rear tire.


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## springs (Jun 26, 2011)

The most noticeable difference for me when I swap out the 4ks for the Gatorskins is coasting on descents. That's when the Gatorskins feel a lot slower than the 4ks. Yes it's all subjective yadda-yadda.


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