# DO NOT radial lace Chris King (classic) hubs or this can happen to you.



## gsxrawd (Apr 7, 2004)

This is why Chris King DO NOT recommend radial lacing on their Classic hubs.

I had the wheels for about 5 years. Never had a problem till yesterday while sprinting to catch a breakaway the front wheel started to wobbled so bad that I thought a crash was inevitable. Luckly I was able to stop safely without crashing. I thought I had broken some spokes but upon inspection none of the spoke broke instead it was the flange of the hub that broke.

I only weight 155 lbs so I didn't think I would have a issue with the radial lacing. I will replace the hub with the R45 which is approved for radial lacing.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

so you actually RTFM and chose to ignore it? glad you didn't go down.


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## gsxrawd (Apr 7, 2004)

I purchased the wheel from a buddy at a super good deal. He had them build up that way. At the time I did not know that King do not recommend radial lacing on their classic hubs. I only knew about it after the incident and was looking at the FAQ on the chris king site.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

wow...you're lucky (and prob a pretty good bike handler) to not go down. the R45 will work great for you.


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

Ah hell no. I would call CK and demand they turn that into a salt or pepper shaker!


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

gsxrawd said:


> I purchased the wheel from a buddy at a super good deal. He had them build up that way. At the time I did not know that King do not recommend radial lacing on their classic hubs. I only knew about it after the incident and was looking at the FAQ on the chris king site.


After all that, do you still think of his as a "buddy"? 

Glad you survived the incident. If I were you I'd demand my money back if you haven't done so yet. 

By the way, whoever built the wheel shouldn't be building wheels in the first place, it is willful negligence to knowingly build an out-of-spec wheel.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Good to hear that your ok. Could have been alot worse. You should be pretty stoked on the R45 though.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

Glad you didn't go down, and my compliments on the quality of photography.


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

I had a 7 year old DT Swiss 240 S rear hub flange break like that and it was laced 3X on both sides.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

orange_julius said:


> After all that, do you still think of his as a "buddy"?
> 
> Glad you survived the incident. If I were you I'd demand my money back if you haven't done so yet.
> 
> By the way, whoever built the wheel shouldn't be building wheels in the first place, it is willful negligence to knowingly build an out-of-spec wheel.


I'm also wondering where his buddy got the wheels built.... do not go there...


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## Sheepo (Nov 8, 2011)

I have seen 2 of those fail in person. Same chick I know owned them both. First failed after being laced radially, then the second one failed after the same build. It broke on an emergency stop on a descent. 

I know I wouldnt put my neck on the line twice in a row!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

you can build em 1 cross and get a little more material behind the spoke heads...


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

Sheepo said:


> I have seen 2 of those fail in person. Same chick I know owned them both. First failed after being laced radially, then the second one failed after the same build. It broke on an emergency stop on a descent.
> 
> I know I wouldnt put my neck on the line twice in a row!


So she had a hub fail after radially lacing against spec and then went ahead and had another wheel build the same way--radial out of spec?


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Good thing you are ok.

I know lacing radial is pretty but I do not go there unless I can find material online confirming the hub can be laced that way. I have only so far used Taiwanese made hubs with not much information and have stuck with at least 1X.

Sometimes failures can and will happen no matter what the manufacturer specify. A lot of factors are involved and you just hope you got a well manufactured hub.

Does a 'branded' hub actually reduces the risk of failures? Highly likely due to research and testing etc.

The R45 is a hub I would like to get ... Very nice ...

Cheers for sharing ...


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## Sheepo (Nov 8, 2011)

vagabondcyclist said:


> So she had a hub fail after radially lacing against spec and then went ahead and had another wheel build the same way--radial out of spec?


She bought both used. I still think its ridiculous and downright dangerous. Road descents are up to 50 MPH. Thats death if you land on your head...


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## 67caddy (Nov 4, 2009)

I had my Rolf Vector Pro rear wheel do that same thing while it was hanging up in the garage. I wasn't there when it happened. There was a semicircular piece of metal sitting on the hood of my car. I picked it up and looked at it. Odd, this looks like a section of the flange from a bike hub. I look up and right above me is the Vector Pro wheel with a chunk out of the hub, and two spokes dangling from the rim. Just glad it didn't happen while I was riding. The wheels were over 10 years old and I had run them on my primary road bike for 8 seasons, so I got my moneys worth out of them.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Sheepo said:


> She bought both used. I still think its ridiculous and downright dangerous. Road descents are up to 50 MPH. Thats death if you land on your head...


ridiculous on King's part, or the wheel builder lacing front hubs against the manufacturer's advice?


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

It occassionally happens to campy rear hubs even if they're laced 3X. I had one break during a seated hard effort during a practice time trial.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

Parts fails. It's only a matter of time. 

Whether or not the reason was the lacing, the point is... many repeated uses of a part will eventually wear to a point they will need to be replaced. 

Brand names don't always perform well, we've all had them fail on us. Whether it was too early or late depends on how thick your wallet is.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

i broke the flange on a low flange xt front laced 3x...


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n said:


> Does a 'branded' hub actually reduces the risk of failures? Highly likely due to research and testing etc.
> 
> The R45 is a hub I would like to get ... Very nice ...
> 
> Cheers for sharing ...


Depends on the brand, and more specifically the hub design. Flange strength, spacing, hole count, and other factors all contribute to what is the "ideal" lacing for a hub.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Wow...
5 years, how many miles are on that wheel? Considering if it has that much road time, you managed to get some long use against the makers recommended practice.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Thanks for posting your bad luck; it's a warning to us all that can save us injury or at least expense.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

Peter P. said:


> Thanks for posting your bad luck; it's a warning to us all that can save us injury or at least expense.


No luck about it. The hub was laced in a pattern not recommended by the manufacturer. There's a reason the manufacturer doesn't recommend radial lacing for that _*particular*_ hub.


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## gsxrawd (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm up and running again. replaced the hub with the R45 hub which is approved for radial lacing.


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## gsxrawd (Apr 7, 2004)

old vs new


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

The problem really isn't radial lacing per se, but how folks do it

I've built radial wheels for decades on a variety of hubs (never a CK) and have never had a flange failure, including those brands that explicitly void the warranty for radials.

the difference? tension and spoke gauge/type.

One thing you have to understand about radial pattern is it eliminates the over/under lacing used in cross patterns. That means that the ONLY source of flex and resiliency (or shock absorption if you prefer) is in the elongation of the spoke itself, and that's not very much. Combine that with a 2mm plain spoke laced to 100kpf and it doesn't take too much shock to take the flange beyond it's limit

Build the same hub with 15g, or 14/16g butted spokes and keep the tension nearer to 75-80kpf which is all these thinner spokes need for a front wheel and you won't crack the flanges. (though you'll still void the warranty).

The tension difference is why many people break front flanges with radial, but rarely rear flanges with radial left side, where the dish imposes lower tension.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Are CK hubs aluminum? They look aluminum to me.
I wonder if chromoly or alloy would make them stronger?

But I also think the CK front hub design is a little fragile compared to Shimano or Mavic because in the CK, the spokes pulling on holes that are on a metal blade (the flange). In the Shimano and Mavic designs, the holes are actually slots which are part of the body of the hub. Because of the difference in design, the Shimano and Mavic hubs have more metal material surround the holes so it is less likely that the tension of the spokes will pull out a chunk of metal. At least this is what I think just by looking at the design of CK and Shimano and Mavic. Just take a look at the Shimano pic and you'll see what I was talking about.

And here's what I'm also thinking too. In a cross lace wheel, the tension is high at the points of where the spokes cross each other, and this alleviates (by distributing) the tension at any particular point on the flange (due to tension distribution from spoke crossing). And in radial lacing, the tension is high right at the flange (no cross lacing to help distribute force). So if you want to do radial lacing, your hub flange has to be a strong "anchor" to begin with. So based on this reasoning (which may not be correct), that's why I say the Shimano hub looks stronger than CK. Somebody correct me if I'm off, probably will be off!


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Are CK hubs aluminum? They look aluminum to me.
> I wonder if chromoly or alloy would make them stronger?
> 
> .


Absolutely, but it would also make them more suited for boat anchors. All decent hub shells have been aluminum since the mid sixties, and there's no reason to go back to steel for this application. I'm surprised that engineered plastics haven't made more inroads here.

If someone did bring out a steel flanged hub, there would be new issues. Since aluminum became dominant, spoke elbows have been made based on the thickness of typical alloy flanges. Thinner steel flanges would call for shorter elbows, or the addition of spoke washers to take up the excess length.


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

those topolino wheels seem to have a "plastic" hub and hold a long kevlar "spoke" from one side of the rim to the other, which appears to be what the german lightweights and the newest mavic cosmic wheels also do.


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## shoemakerpom2010 (Apr 25, 2011)

Had that same thing happen on a pair of carbon wrap/aluminum Bullseye hubs I bought in the 90's on my mountain bike. I remember there was a little disclaimer on them saying that salty weather climates could affect the aluminum and void the warranty. I rode them 6 months in florida and they failed the same way about 5 years after that.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> Are CK hubs aluminum? They look aluminum to me.
> I wonder if chromoly or alloy would make them stronger?


you're using the work 'alloy' incorrectly. virtually any steel OR aluminum that we make things out of is an 'alloy', or a mixture of different metals. for example, the chromoly used in most bicycle applications is 4130, and includes chromium and molybdenum. 7000 aluminum alloys will have some zinc alloyed in. 
'alloy' does not necessarily mean the part is made from aluminum.


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> you're using the work 'alloy' incorrectly. virtually any steel OR aluminum that we make things out of is an 'alloy', or a mixture of different metals..


+1 all metals are used in alloyed form since pure metals lack ideal properties. OTOH, in the bicycle world, "alloy" has long been shorthand for aluminum alloy. This dates back to the introduction as replacement for steel (alloys) and referred to as "light alloy", later shortened to simply alloy.

Nowadays, with other materials we still incorporate a bit of shorthand, and refer to steel, aluminum, Ti, or carbon bikes, with the implied modifies of alloy, or matrix or composite for carbon.

BTW- I still remember the days when many owners of light steel bikes thought they had aluminum frames because they had a decal clearly stating that they were built of "Reynolds" tubing. (for those not in the USA, Reynolds is a major aluminum producer here, and everyone knows them from Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil)


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

FBinNY said:


> +1 all metals are used in alloyed form since pure metals lack ideal properties. OTOH, in the bicycle world, "alloy" has long been shorthand for aluminum alloy. This dates back to the introduction as replacement for steel (alloys) and referred to as "light alloy", later shortened to simply alloy.
> 
> Nowadays, with other materials we still incorporate a bit of shorthand, and refer to steel, aluminum, Ti, or carbon bikes, with the implied modifies of alloy, or matrix or composite for carbon.
> 
> BTW- I still remember the days when many owners of light steel bikes thought they had aluminum frames because they had a decal clearly stating that they were built of "Reynolds" tubing. (for those not in the USA, Reynolds is a major aluminum producer here, and everyone knows them from Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil)


You must have been hanging out with some simple people..

"Oh, my new bike is made from Reynolds Wrap! It's very cutting edge and light weight too! And you can bake with it, or store your left-overs!"

Just sayin...


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

foto said:


> You must have been hanging out with some simple people..
> 
> "Oh, my new bike is made from Reynolds Wrap! It's very cutting edge and light weight too! And you can bake with it, or store your left-overs!"
> 
> Just sayin...


Not that simple, Reynolds aluminum is a large firm making all kinds of aluminum products.

I don't think folks think its foil, it's what that makes Reynolds aluminum a household name. In all fairness, why should someone who associates Reynolds with aluminum, make the jump to a specialty tube manufacturer in the UK?

It's Reynolds, and it's light, so in this case one and one make five.


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## bikepro (Jan 22, 2006)

gsxrawd said:


> This is why Chris King DO NOT recommend radial lacing on their Classic hubs.
> 
> I had the wheels for about 5 years. Never had a problem till yesterday while sprinting to catch a breakaway the front wheel started to wobbled so bad that I thought a crash was inevitable. Luckly I was able to stop safely without crashing. I thought I had broken some spokes but upon inspection none of the spoke broke instead it was the flange of the hub that broke.
> 
> I only weight 155 lbs so I didn't think I would have a issue with the radial lacing. I will replace the hub with the R45 which is approved for radial lacing.


The problem is not due to the rider weight. It's due to the extra stress the radial lacing places on the hub.


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