# Considering a Moots for my next bike, but still the choices....



## 59Bassman (Jul 2, 2010)

I've been back on the bike now for a few months and enjoying it immensely. My current bike is a Salsa Podio with a full Sram Rival set. I've got a few thousand miles on this bike, but have been off it for a couple of years.

I work a ton of hours and am re-discovering the fact that when I'm on a bike, I simply can't think about work. The freedom of the bike reminds me of my motorcycle days, plus it is a fantastic cardio workout.

My background is engineering, with a degree in Materials Science. I appreciate carbon for what it can do - especially when laid up by Boeing under an AS9000 quality system. I have less respect for it when laid up by an unknown shop in China. As a Clyde, I don't trust my fat backside to a carbon frame. 

So I'm considering Ti. No, not considering it, I'm committed to it. I have waffled between Seven and Moots (I have good dealers for both in my area). I tend to think that I'd be better off with a stock set of frame sizes than a full custom, which pushes me towards Moots. I will complete the build with a SRAM Force set.

I'm not a sprinter, but I do turn myself inside out when I ride. I am kind of an in-between rider. I tend to be a bit faster than the average on group rides, but slower than the "dedicated" riders in the local cycle shop kits. I try to be a spinner, but I know I can generate some power standing up and cranking a higher gear. I am 43 years old, 6'3", and currently about 225 with a target weight of 190 or so (been there before while riding). 

I'm torn between a Vamoots and either the CR or DR. Disc brakes appeal to me, but I tend to prefer a more horizontal top tube than the CR or DR provide. I'm concerned that a stock Vamoots would be a bit to flexy for me at my size and riding style. A 44mm head tube might stiffen the frame up a bit, but I don't know if I want to go with a tapered fork and lose the "correct" sizing as far as rake is concerned.

Thoughts? The standard Vamoots frame speaks to me more, but I have some concerns with it. A CR or DR might be a bit more stiff, but I'm not as big a fan of the angled top tube. Anyone think it's worth it to spring for disc brakes at this point?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to make a correct decision on a long-term frame.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Both choices are from companies smart enough to tailor their tubes to various size frames. I don't think stiffness is going to be an issue. I see the Moots already comes with an oversize 34.9mm seat tube. Many manufacturers neglect to oversize the seat tube which really shortchanges those needing stiffer frames. The Seven comes with a 27.2mm seatpost so I'm assuming it has a 28.6mm seat tube; it would likely be more flexy than the Moots so check on Seven's seat tube O.D. . Small increases in tube diameter lead to substantial increases in stiffness.

You're a big guy; 23mm or maybe even 25mm tires might be too small for you. If you feel the same way, then get a disc capable frame as you'll be able to fit much larger tires. Moots claims the CR can handle 27mm tires. There aren't that many 27mm tires that I know of; same goes for quality 26mm tires. Next size up would be 28mm and that would lead to a disc capable frame.

Another reason you might want to consider a disc capable frame is if you plan to ride carbon wheels. Rim brakes and carbon rims have poorer braking relative to aluminum rims and rim brakes. If you're sticking with aluminum rims then I'd say get caliper brakes and you'll save weight, and have simplicity along with excellent braking.

Try to stop thinking about the sloping top tube. There's nothing wrong with them and with stellar companies like Seven and Moots you know they'll be smart enough to build the slopers with head tubes commensurate with the frame size relative to an equivalent horizontal top tube design.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Back when I did my Seven, BB30 was brand new gee-whiz and no one had long term experience with it yet....and roadies disc was brand new and just starting. Seven was great to work with, on the project. I'd work with them again in a heart beat. Moots, I would not at all shy away from either, today there are other options too. Result was this toy: https://imgur.com/a/fRBor

If I did the bespoke bike frame dance again....what if anything would I do different now than then?

-I might mix up the paint compared to what I did, or do ano. Firefly or No22 both do some cool Ti work as well in this area.
-Building now...instead of going Campag Chorus....I'd consider EPS/Di2 fitting-out of the frame. But Sram eTap would be a strong choice.
-I'd do disc brakes. The stopping power isn't an issue for me now and never is....frame clearance for both tires and *fenders* is. Fenders being my primary concern, and disc gives far more options in this dept. Further, this is the direction the bike manufacturers are going.
-Fender mounts ofc, like I did would stay.
-I'd keep the BSA threaded BB as of now. If the King T47 took off it would be one thing....but;


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## 59Bassman (Jul 2, 2010)

Peter, that's a gorgeous bike. As are most Sevens that I've seen. My concern with Seven is that I'm an nth-degree detail freak. I hate being responsible for specifying details I don't understand completely. Last year I had a guitar built to my spec. That was no sweat - I've had 30 years of playing and owned dozens of guitars over that time. I knew what I wanted out of that guitar and what group of specifications would most likely get me there. However, I've owned a total of 4 road bikes in my life (one a hybrid), and only 2 in the past 20 years. The fear with Seven is that I just don't know what I don't know. That makes me leery of a true custom. Yes, I could go buy and ride a half dozen other bikes in the next 3 years to get that variety of experience. But I'd rather not do that. I could also order one of their Signature Size models, but I feel like I'd be missing out on the reason to go Seven in the first place... Yes, I know - neurotic. She Who Must Be Obeyed reminds me of that frequently.

Peter, you may have been looking at the spec sheet for the Vamoots RSL. That specifies 27c tires and a 30.9mm seat post. The straight Vamoots as well as the CR and DR are 27.2mm seat posts. The Vamoots and CR will clear 28c, the DR (disc) will clear 29c. Right now I'm on Conti GP 4000s in a 25c which I like very much. At some point I may wish to try a 28c, but there appears to be little between 28c and about 32c or 35c. So the DR option doesn't buy me much in terms of tire flexibility. I have no interest in carbon rims at this point - at my size I think a good set of 32/28 spoke aluminum rims is probably the safest bet on long rides. Looks like my choices are either a "classic" frame, or a modern compact with a choice of disc or not. The Compact frames all have larger head tubes as stock.


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## RockinTukker (Mar 6, 2015)

I spent 2 years lusting after a MOOTS, scouring on-line sales; visiting their factory etc. My LBS got me started by showing me the DR, but switched to wanting a CR. Feel the DR would be more suited as "2nd bike" if I lived out west somewhere and wanted to ride gravel. Then I lost my job.....

In addition to everything else consider the following: (1) what purpose will this bike have? prime bike? endurance addition to carbon racer? something you can take on unpaved roads? Also consider resale value of bike. Rightly or wrongly, MOOTS frames hold their resale value. 

As someone on this forum once said: _afer 40, 2 things are inevitable: nasal hair and lusting after a Ti frame"_. I shall return...

good luck


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## 59Bassman (Jul 2, 2010)

Use will be primary bike for road riding. Most of what I do is 40+ mile solo rides on paved roads a couple times a week. I am unlikely to use it for commuting. I have no interest in crits. Gravel roads exist locally but I'd have quite the drive to get to a good place to use a grinder. I have a mountain bike already, not looking to duplicate anything there.

I am also a fair-weather rider. Local weather often involves electricity, so I tend to ride when there is little chance of rain. Being in the foothills of the Appalachians, there are hills - so a DR is a tradeoff. A bit more weight going up, a bit more power coming down. But I'm not riding carbon rims.

Pretty much looking for an endurance road rider that can still climb and descend well. Enough compliance over rough pavement but enough stiffness to let me power up a climb out of the saddle. Not enough of a weight weenie to chase CF stem spacers, but I'd rather not end up with a 25lb pig, either.

Basically I want the Goldilocks bike. A Ti Spec Roubaix, kinda....


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

59Bassman said:


> Peter, that's a gorgeous bike. As are most Sevens that I've seen. My concern with Seven is that I'm an nth-degree detail freak. I hate being responsible for specifying details I don't understand completely. Last year I had a guitar built to my spec. That was no sweat - I've had 30 years of playing and owned dozens of guitars over that time. I knew what I wanted out of that guitar and what group of specifications would most likely get me there. However, I've owned a total of 4 road bikes in my life (one a hybrid), and only 2 in the past 20 years. The fear with Seven is that I just don't know what I don't know. That makes me leery of a true custom. Yes, I could go buy and ride a half dozen other bikes in the next 3 years to get that variety of experience. But I'd rather not do that. I could also order one of their Signature Size models, but I feel like I'd be missing out on the reason to go Seven in the first place... Yes, I know - neurotic. She Who Must Be Obeyed reminds me of that frequently.


Now I think I get where what I thought was strange logic in the Seven thread is coming from.
I don't think you understand what custom bike makers do. You simply give them your measurements and riding style and preferences and they worry about the small details of how to execute it. They are bike designers too, not just welders who want their customers to be bike the designers. Sure, if you demanded Seven build a bike with 54.39878 top tube and 74.3687 degree seat angle ect they'd do it......but the whole point of a custom bike is putting trust in the builder/designer that they get the small details correct so you don't have to. They know more than 99.9% of their customers how to execute the desired outcome and would probably prefer the customers not get into details anyway, never mind expect them to provide them.


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## 59Bassman (Jul 2, 2010)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Now I think I get where what I thought was strange logic in the Seven thread is coming from.
> I don't think you understand what custom bike makers do. You simply give them your measurements and riding style and preferences and they worry about the small details of how to execute it. They are bike designers too, not just welders who want their customers to be bike the designers. Sure, if you demanded Seven build a bike with 54.39878 top tube and 74.3687 degree seat angle ect they'd do it......but the whole point of a custom bike is putting trust in the builder/designer that they get the small details correct so you don't have to. They know more than 99.9% of their customers how to execute the desired outcome and would probably prefer the customers not get into details anyway, never mind expect them to provide them.


That helps, thanks. My previous experience with "custom" items was a guitar I had built. With that, I chose woods, fret sizes, neck shape, nut width, electronics, and hardware based on 30 years of playing. The result was amazing but it also got me thinking I needed that level of "passtime knowledge" before I went custom again. However, knowing that part of it is just trusting the frame builder helps me understand better. It also may bring Kish back into the equation...


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