# For those of you who use lights



## Guest (Nov 24, 2006)

I ride at night at this time of year and ride to work when I can.

Decided to pick up a new light. I bought the Nite-Hawk K2, Digital Emitter Dual.

The battery charged very quickly and I was able to mount the Pods ( easy on/ easy off) and try out the lights.

These things are BRIGHT, No-one is not going to see you with these on your bike and the pods are separately controlled, so for instance you could have on pod at solid on 50% and the other on blinking at 100%.

I took a quick run around the neighbourhood and will tell you that I can comfortably see about 200 feet away. I can ride at night, at speed with these lights.

Both pods at full power the run time is estimated at 2.5 hours, both pods at 50% estimated at 5.5 hours.

Pretty impressed with these.


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## dave66 (Jan 3, 2006)

so will anybody you meet coming the other way.

I can understand the use of powerful lights when riding secluded roads etc where one neither meets a lot of cyclists coming the other way or where terrain is uneven [trails] but meeting someone commuting within the city limits with a HID leaves me blind for a period of time.
This may very well be the best light for the commute you have to do, I am just pointing out that 'brightest' does not always equal the best light for commuting. Personnally i go for the 'be seen' [head mounted LED light, numerous blinkies and reflective as possible] over 'seeing' but that is just the most appropriate for my commuting routes and comfort.

cars will dim high beams for oncoming traffic for a reason.


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

dave66 said:


> Personnally i go for the 'be seen' over 'seeing'


I think you are best "seen" by a light that is bright enough to see by. I aim my L & M at drivers' eye-level.

On city streets, I shouldn't have to worry about blinding other bike commuters unless they're going against traffic on my side of the street. And if they're doing that ...


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2006)

Well, where I typically ride at night (and even sections of my commute) have no street lights. 

I want to see where I am going, I want to see what is ahead of me and I want anybody out on the road to know I am there.

I use a set of bright lights with a lot of throw to make darn sure people know I am there.

As the good Dr. said, I shouldn't have to worry about blinding you if you are tirty feet away on the other side of the road.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I use an HID specifically for the 9/13 miles of my commute on a MUT. For whatever reason, the joggers running at 5am seem to like to wear black or other dark colors. The HID is great for illuminating anything reflective including running shoes. Sometimes that is all I see when approaching from behind. Most of the MUT is completely dark so I like the ability to see over 100 feet in front of me. The only issue that I ever have with other commuters is some asshat that wears a helmet mounted HID that wants to look (blind) at the face of every other rider. He is slow and passing him means that you will lose your night vision for a little while. I used a halogen NR light for about ten years and the HID just blows everything else away. I will say that I am impressed with the latest generation of LED lights and their battery life. They would work nicely in a better lit area since they provide good visibility.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2006)

The K2 in the snow, the end of the fence is about 80 feet or so away and the trees across the road are in or around 130 to 140 feet.


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## lonefrontranger (Feb 5, 2004)

i'm sorry I have to chime in here. there are a ton of bike commuters in boulder and some of them are really damned rude with these uber HID systems of theirs. 

I don't drive. I also live about 4 miles out in the sticks on the northeast end of Boulder. This time of year, I often use sections of the MUT. its only 5-6' wide and these idiots run their stupid HID systems ALL THE WAY UP - it reminds me of the morons who run lightbars on their SUVs on the freeway or kids with foglights on their slammed imports on clear nights. I mean I've nearly run off the side of the bike path a couple times because this blew my vision so badly.

so I ask you: why should *I* get my retinas burned out and have to slow down or stop just because YOU feel the need to light up the surrounding countryside like a damn pro football stadium? Turn 'em down, please. there's one assclown who rides the opposite way up Jay Rd from me, who runs his HIDs all the way up and I've had to yell at him TWICE now to please turn them down or re-aim them. and that's a 2-lane road with wide bike shoulders. Even the import cars with HID lamps aren't this bad, because at least they're properly aimed. with bike commuters it seems there's a 100% chance they'll decide to aim their beams right at eye level for most other cyclists.

I use a simple older 10W system with a driveside strobe and a couple blinkies. there are NO streetlights for about five miles of my commute. None. The lighting I use gives me ample reach to go as fast as I need to and i'm a freaking Cat 2 road racer for crying out loud.

/rant


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2006)

Gee thanks for that.

Merry Christmas to you too.


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## WrongBikeFred (Oct 19, 2005)

toomanybikes said:


> Well, where I typically ride at night (and even sections of my commute) have no street lights.
> 
> I want to see where I am going, I want to see what is ahead of me and I want anybody out on the road to know I am there.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean, I currently do not have a MUT or any such non-motorized vehicle route to commute on and have not seen another commuter in about 6 weeks. I go with lights to see by, sometimes running a dual nightrider classic, if I will be taking the long way home. If I were in an area where blinding other commuters were a possibility, I would be happy to run a much weaker light (actually, I would just be happy in general). I currently run a single emitter on my regular route, since it has plenty of light for most of the way. I may have to check into the dual.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

lonefrontranger said:


> i'm sorry I have to chime in here. there are a ton of bike commuters in boulder and some of them are really damned rude with these uber HID systems of theirs.
> 
> I don't drive. I also live about 4 miles out in the sticks on the northeast end of Boulder. This time of year, I often use sections of the MUT. its only 5-6' wide and these idiots run their stupid HID systems ALL THE WAY UP - it reminds me of the morons who run lightbars on their SUVs on the freeway or kids with foglights on their slammed imports on clear nights. I mean I've nearly run off the side of the bike path a couple times because this blew my vision so badly.
> 
> ...


Wow, a Cat 2? Can I have your autograph?  

But I agree the blinding is an issue. I get blinded a few times per night. The helmet lights kind of annoy me. These are great for singletrack, but are they really necessary on the pavement?

I use a crappy old Niterider and a blinky. When the Niterider craps out I'll probably buy something a bit brighter but keep it pointed down.


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## WrongBikeFred (Oct 19, 2005)

Get whatever you want and don't aim it at people's eyes. Problem solved. Also, if you run a helmet mount, don't look at people unless you feel threatened, i.e. a group of people not in a car hanging out at 2 AM that starts to approach you. I've taken the long way home through a park late at night before and the ability to blind someone while looking at them can give you the upperhand over a potential threat in a not-so-threatening way. You can also quick flash someone that looks like they are about to pull out in front of you if you have a helmet light, just don't blind folks without good cause. If you are on a crowded MUT, then just turn off your helmet light and/or dim your regular light, if this is an option. Cars traffic has functioned on the dimming light principle for many years, I'm sure people as "enlightened" (couldn't resist) as us bicycle commuters can handle it.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

I have the HID system and swear by them. One point is that the off road HIDs have a wider pattern and will look much brighter to oncoming traffic as opposed to the more narrow road beam that will give you a greater line of sight up the road.

Once you get used to the helmet configuration it is actually easier to control the beam pattern. I look away slightly off to the side of the road when there is oncoming traffic to eliminate the light in their eyes. At red lights I tilt my head back so the light shines up into the sky. If someone cuts me off or gets real close I focus the light in their rear or side view mirror and hopefully burn a hole into the back of their head.

The downside of the helmet light is it becomes difficult to see holes in the ground and it makes everything in the road kind of two dimensional making object detection and avoidance a little more difficult.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

bigrider said:


> I have the HID system and swear by them. One point is that the off road HIDs have a wider pattern and will look much brighter to oncoming traffic as opposed to the more narrow road beam that will give you a greater line of sight up the road.
> 
> Once you get used to the helmet configuration it is actually easier to control the beam pattern. I look away slightly off to the side of the road when there is oncoming traffic to eliminate the light in their eyes. At red lights I tilt my head back so the light shines up into the sky. If someone cuts me off or gets real close I focus the light in their rear or side view mirror and hopefully burn a hole into the back of their head.
> 
> The downside of the helmet light is it becomes difficult to see holes in the ground and it makes everything in the road kind of two dimensional making object detection and avoidance a little more difficult.


I use a bar mounted light. I wouldn't use a helmet light for the same reason I won't carry a gun when I commute. I would use it as a weapon. Not a day goes by without a comment from a co-worker about headlight. The last part of my commute to work involves merging left to cross a narrow two lane bridge. Enough people from work recognize me by my headlight that having a gap in traffic to merge is never an issue. I know that my light is blinding to look at, but I believe that I have it aimed at the lowest point while maintaining my field of view.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

Another commuter here that swears by a HID - Its stopped a car from pulling in front of me more than once in situations where they did when I had my 10w halogen. When on paths around boulder (the only paths I have available during my commute) and there are oncoming people/cyclists/etc - I put my hand over the light so I only light up the path directly in front of me and I don't blind them. Once on the road, I don't worry about it; however I also don't have it mounted to hit eye's either. I have it aimed the same way I would aim a vehicle's headlight which give me plenty of light on the ground to see by and allows everyone else to see me without blinding them. The HID also has allowed me to avoid stuff in the bike lane that I would have previously hit as the 10w Halogen didn't illuminate it early enough for me to avoid it at 30-40mph, maybe I just don't have the skill to avoid debris with the 10w - so in effect the HID allows me to commute faster too.

I've been looking for a second light for my wife and I'll check out the one mentioned by the OP - thanks for the heads up!


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## dave66 (Jan 3, 2006)

*varied opinions*

to quote one of your presidents - 
lone - i feel your pain and understand your rant.
i use a cheap LED headlamp as it gives me enuff light to see by and after many yrs of commuting, having a light i can swing side to side will work better at alerting a driver than a blinding bar light which can just hypnoitze some cars. 
my commute is a bit of a heinz 57 - arterial roads, MUT, residential streets, unlit heavy traffic country roads with no shoulders even rolling singletrack if i am so inclined, and i have found this to be the least obtrusive to oncoming bike/walker traffic. 

the 'this is enough light for me' statement goes out the window if i have just been blinded by a helmet or bar mounted searchlight. cars dim their high beams for oncoming traffic - why don't we offer the same courtesy?


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## Duckman (Jul 21, 2005)

I use an HID. But, I race 12/24 hour endurance races and its a huge improvement over the halogen route(they suck since it took forever to charge, lasted 1-2 hours at best, heavier, and the light was not enough at race pace, imho). Just ain't no comparsion imho.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm a bit confused why you've asked about dimming lights twice now. Some HIDs have off or on, so Dimming isn't an option. If aimed at eye level, even the low setting on my HID will blind you (And I won't be putting enough light on the ground to see well by it) - however a car headlight will blind you much worse than even the brightest HID if it is aimed incorrectly. As far as light output directly in front of the light, the brightest HID bike light equivalent to ~35w halogen. Cars have 55w low beams and 65w high beams - unless you drive a ricer with fake HID bulbs and then its closer to 85w/120w (but that will lead down a dismal rant for me.....) - so a car when dimmed, is still much brighter than a HID.
About the closest to dimming is what I already do which is block the light with my hand when on a MUT with someone coming towards me (If I'm running my NR Flight, then I'll just use the LEDs, but that isn't my normal commuting light). 
Amongst my friends, I usually have the best night vision - but I guess I have horrible night vision compared to others as a cheap LED wouldn't cut it for me (unless I wanted to make my normally ~45min commute in ~2+hrs)


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*weighing in*

I run a Light and Motion Arc HID on my handlebars, as well as a Cateye 3 LED blinking on my helmet. I ride 13 miles each way right through town, and I feel like I want all the light (visibility) I can possibly get. 

90% of my trip is on 4 lane busy urban roads. There are many, many intersections, and lots of oncoming cars turning left across my path, and lots pulling in across the bike lane from my right. I noticed a dramatic difference in the notice (=respect?) from drivers with both the ultra bright HID and the flashy on my helmet. I don't think I'm blinding anyone, but even if I'm coming close, that relatively brief annoyance is acceptable, I'd think, compared to the benefits of not being run over by a car and leaving my 2 kids without a father. I've never heard of a cyclist crashing because someone else's bike light temporarily blinded them. On the other hand, how often do we need to hear about cyclists being plowed down because a driver claims they never saw the cyclist?

Now, I have noticed that with the HID, I don't need to run it aimed at drivers' (or cyclists') eyes to get the job done. Even when aimed at the ground illuminating a good hundred yards ahead, plenty at 20 mph, with extremely good bright light, there is still sufficient peripheral light to reflect off road signs 30 feet off the ground a quarter mile away. So, I figure I'm getting the best of both.

Running the blinky on the helmet seems to work with drivers turning left and coming from side streets and parking lots. It definitely gets their attention, but is in no way blinding.

Also, at least my HID can easily be re-aimed left and right while riding. It's not the slightest bit inconvenient to turn it a bit to the right when on a trail, if there is a desire to avoid blinding others. However, some of the worst dangers I have encountered are, as some have mentioned, pedestrians on the trail in unlit areas wearing dark colors, often with dogs on leashes attached to them, walking cluelessly down the middle of the trail, sometimes several abreast. With good lighting, I can see them well in advance, and better yet, my light shines on past them, giving them warning from behind that I'm approaching. 

So, my view is that HID lights are extremely valuable on commutes, but even then it's not difficult to mitigate their brightness if there's a need to.

When did they come up with Categories for commuters?  





bsaunder said:


> I'm a bit confused why you've asked about dimming lights twice now. Some HIDs have off or on, so Dimming isn't an option. If aimed at eye level, even the low setting on my HID will blind you (And I won't be putting enough light on the ground to see well by it) - however a car headlight will blind you much worse than even the brightest HID if it is aimed incorrectly. As far as light output directly in front of the light, the brightest HID bike light equivalent to ~35w halogen. Cars have 55w low beams and 65w high beams - unless you drive a ricer with fake HID bulbs and then its closer to 85w/120w (but that will lead down a dismal rant for me.....) - so a car when dimmed, is still much brighter than a HID.
> About the closest to dimming is what I already do which is block the light with my hand when on a MUT with someone coming towards me (If I'm running my NR Flight, then I'll just use the LEDs, but that isn't my normal commuting light).
> Amongst my friends, I usually have the best night vision - but I guess I have horrible night vision compared to others as a cheap LED wouldn't cut it for me (unless I wanted to make my normally ~45min commute in ~2+hrs)


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Fixed said:


> When did they come up with Categories for commuters?


I am a Cat 1 but only based on experience. MB1 would be the pro since he pretty much exists on his bike and makes money on the side selling pictures he took while riding. I can't compete with that. I use a car to grocery shop, I like heavy foods.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*MB1 = Div. 1*



bigbill said:


> I am a Cat 1 but only based on experience. MB1 would be the pro since he pretty much exists on his bike and makes money on the side selling pictures he took while riding. I can't compete with that. I use a car to grocery shop, I like heavy foods.


Yes, no doubt MB1 is a Division 1 pro. Heck, he struggled with hauling a whole bunch of crap across town without a car. It would never have crossed my mind.

I figure I'm still a 5, but I'm about ready to apply for upgrade to 4. I always finish, my handling skills are respectable, and, heck, I've *survived* urban traffic, even night, with fog and rain. I've won many light to light races, and if I am beaten, it's only by a really cool Cat 1 commuter. Who's the district rep?


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

*Call me selfish ...*

... but I would rather take every precaution in ensuring that I'm visible to motorists than worry about being a nuisance to oncoming riders. This is not a comfort thing, or a preference thing, or a stylistic thing. This is survival, pure and simple. Besides, no one says you have to look _into_ my light!


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Wow, a Cat 2? Can I have your autograph?
> 
> But I agree the blinding is an issue. I get blinded a few times per night. The helmet lights kind of annoy me. These are great for singletrack, but are they really necessary on the pavement?
> 
> I use a crappy old Niterider and a blinky. When the Niterider craps out I'll probably buy something a bit brighter but keep it pointed down.


We are not amused.

The comment LFR made about being a Cat 2 racer was to put her speed in perspective. Maybe you should engage your brain BEFORE you engage your typing fingers, just a thought here.

EM


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

toomanybikes said:


> I ride at night at this time of year and ride to work when I can.
> 
> Decided to pick up a new light. I bought the Nite-Hawk K2, Digital Emitter Dual.
> 
> ...


toomanybikes, 

I'm glad to hear you are happy with your lights. I hope you stay as happy with them years from now. Ride safely, see and be seen, and the best to you!
EM


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## dave66 (Jan 3, 2006)

bsaunder said:


> I'm a bit confused why you've asked about dimming lights twice now. Some HIDs have off or on, so Dimming isn't an option. If aimed at eye level, even the low setting on my HID will blind you (And I won't be putting enough light on the ground to see well by it) - however a car headlight will blind you much worse than even the brightest HID if it is aimed incorrectly. As far as light output directly in front of the light, the brightest HID bike light equivalent to ~35w halogen. Cars have 55w low beams and 65w high beams - unless you drive a ricer with fake HID bulbs and then its closer to 85w/120w (but that will lead down a dismal rant for me.....) - so a car when dimmed, is still much brighter than a HID.
> About the closest to dimming is what I already do which is block the light with my hand when on a MUT with someone coming towards me (If I'm running my NR Flight, then I'll just use the LEDs, but that isn't my normal commuting light).
> Amongst my friends, I usually have the best night vision - but I guess I have horrible night vision compared to others as a cheap LED wouldn't cut it for me (unless I wanted to make my normally ~45min commute in ~2+hrs)


i realize they cannot be dimmed and maybe it is just the contrast that makes them more blinding - stream of cars on a major arterial road, street lamps etc...vs. dark bike path and then meeting an uber light coming the other direction which leaves you seeing spots for the next klick.
good on ya for shielding the light with your hand - a good comprimise between politeness and self preservation. 


as for night vision/lighting i guess it is to each his own - every commute is different and i know i brighter light my show more but i am more concerned about the car seeing me than the huge spotlight in front of me


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*Cat*



Enviro Mental said:


> We are not amused.
> 
> The comment LFR made about being a Cat 2 racer was to put her speed in perspective. Maybe you should engage your brain BEFORE you engage your typing fingers, just a thought here.
> 
> EM


Well, one 5% descent will take anyone (well, maybe not on a fixie) to speeds faster than Lance Armstrong on flat ground. Mentioning one's Cat on a commuting forum? With due respect for LFR, it seems unnecessary, at best.


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## SFK (Nov 25, 2007)

*Good "be seen" AA-powered option*

A very visible front light to help be seen is the Blackburn Quadrant. Need to be careful it's clicked all the way into the (slightly wimpy) mounting bracket. One good trick to keep it from blinking in your eyes is a section of MTB tube stretched over the front as pictured here:
http://www.vangelisti.com/prevention/Bicycle-Safety-Information.htm


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## sf1901 (Nov 17, 2007)

toomanybikes said:


> I ride at night at this time of year and ride to work when I can.
> 
> Decided to pick up a new light. I bought the Nite-Hawk K2, Digital Emitter Dual.
> 
> ...


From my earlier post on HID vs. LED, I also picked up the Nite-Hawk K2, Digital Emitter Dual. I first bought the Nite rider Trinewt, but they were a defect, it just didn't charged or lit up (I think someone returned a busted one), but I was able to replace them. I had to wait for about a week and ended up picking the K2 Dual and the other K2 digital for a helmet mount. They were bright all right. I also liked the lighting output and the variety of strobe and steady light combo for the dual. 

Then when my Trinewt came, I installed that on my helmet and that was super bright. I wanted to keep both, but if I kept both I nearly would have spent $500 to $600! It wasn't practical to keep both so I returned the K2 dual (bummer!) and kept the other K2 and mounted that on my head. I then installed the Trinewt on my handlebar and that combination was perfect. I ride 10 to 16 miles each way and if I take the scenic route through Golden Gate park in SF and Ocean beach in SF, its pitch black! So much for the scenic ride.. hehe.. I like riding at night, it's really an adventure because you never know what you'll run into. just make sure to bring some type of protection and your cell phone with you just in case. 

Happy commuting and be safe out there everyone!


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## paulrad9 (Sep 25, 2005)

bsaunder said:


> As far as light output directly in front of the light, the brightest HID bike light equivalent to ~35w halogen. Cars have 55w low beams and 65w high beams - unless you drive a ricer with fake HID bulbs and then its closer to 85w/120w (but that will lead down a dismal rant for me.....) - so a car when dimmed, is still much brighter than a HID.


Yes, but car lights are designed to focus the light elliptically, so light is spread out horizontally as opposed to vertically. Most bike headlights are not designed this way, so light can more easily be viewed as too bright by someone coming in the opposite direction. The Big Bang seems to be the most "friendly" of the bright lights


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm still not 100% on board with blinding drivers who are coming at me...I mean it seems like a good idea, but for some reason I feel a little uneasy about it. I love the candor of the contributors here. Nothing anonunces that you are an engineer quite like opening with a good slam on the other guy's logic. 
Like so many things, bicycling needs a 10 commandments of etiquette. Among the 10, for both bikes and cars, I suggest: "find and use lighting that meets your needs, and be careful of how it impacts those around you". I do appreciate that so many are willing to contribute thier opinions and experiences re equipment. It's great to be able to do a search when I am considering a purchase, in this case lighting, and find a thread like this. Another etiquette commandment, this one for on line forums: "before starting a new thread, do a search on your topic of interest and find what has already been covered." 
Etiquette - ahhhh...


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

_I suggest: "find and use lighting that meets your needs, and be careful of how it impacts those around you". _
You mean we should take others into consideration?  

_Etiquette - ahhhh..._
And we should be polite about it, too??? 

Who the hell *ARE* you, man?


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

I am the soul of an artist - trapped in the psyche of an engineer.


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