# Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash



## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

The first of many!

Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash

Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash - Cycling Weekly


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

so it begins....


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

krtassoc said:


> The first of many!
> 
> Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash
> 
> Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash - Cycling Weekly


How many people have to die or be dismembered before the scourge of disc brakes is stopped! 

In other news, crashing is dangerous


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

What's funny is they don't mention riders injured by handlebars, stems, chainring, wheels, broken spokes, derailleurs, top and down tubes, other riders' feet, heads, etc.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Jwiffle said:


> What's funny is they don't mention riders injured by handlebars, stems, chainring, wheels, broken spokes, derailleurs, top and down tubes, other riders' feet, heads, etc.


I don't think that any of those are close in danger to a sharp metal disc.

But feel free to educate us.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> I don't think that any of those are close in danger to a sharp metal disc.
> 
> But feel free to educate us.


I have known many to take a shot to the ribs or stomach by bars. Granted, they don't usually penetrate (though I've heard of that happening to someone's leg!), but painful nonetheless. 

Chainrings, however, are pretty sharp, and I've definitely known of people getting cut by them.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> I have known many to take a shot to the ribs or stomach by bars. Granted, they don't usually penetrate (though I've heard of that happening to someone's leg!), but painful nonetheless.
> 
> Chainrings, however, are pretty sharp, and I've definitely known of people getting cut by them.


I got a good cut from my chain ring a few years ago... The mini deli slicer attached to the rear wheel seems predictably dangerous? Maybe not, maybe it's the newness factor? I mean Thomas Edison went around shocking dogs to show people how dangerous electricity is. And he was right. But my iPad is worth the risk. Disk brakes?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> I don't think that any of those are close in danger to a sharp metal disc.
> 
> But feel free to educate us.


the chain driven meat grinder that is the chainrings?


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

They've been warned...You'll shoot your eye out kid!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> I don't think that any of those are close in danger to a sharp metal disc.
> 
> But feel free to educate us.


There is no need for disc rotors to be sharp, they can be rounded off. 

This is from a chainring 










https://mobile.twitter.com/alex_howes/status/690675059220992000/photo/1


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## HSracer (Feb 27, 2015)

How do you even prove that this came from a disc brake? Anyone who has been in a crash knows that you can hardly tell what specific part of a bike you hit with your head, let alone your leg. I call B.S until there is definite picture evidence


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

So far, disc brakes jerk the front wheel out of the dropouts, so they require these weird thru axles that make it hard to change wheels. And precisely where rider would need disc brakes, like in the muddy cobbles of Paris-Roubaix, accidents are a part of the action. Nice deep muscle wounds will put rider off for the season.

Breaking a rib on a skewed handlebar is nothing compared to severing a major leg muscle with this spinning meat grinder. :nono:


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

red hot spinning knife blades.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> red hot spinning knife blades.


Yeah, slices faster hot. :shocked:


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Fredrico said:


> Yeah, slices faster hot. :shocked:


sliced open and cauterized simultaneously.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Someone used these rotors?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

bvber said:


> Someone used these rotors?


Ouch!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

the solution is to make discs out of cardboard, that way when you crash into them they'll just fold. Who the dummy that made discs out of steel?? Duh!

Oh and the article said 2 teams sent their entire squad on disc bikes,.. and neither of those teams did anything, I don't even think any of their rider was in the top half of the peloton at race end. Pfff so much for the superiority of disc in adverse condition. Meanwhile, the guys that mattered were all on rim brakes. Love it.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

If your in the front, your not using your disc brakes. Cause you didn't have any!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think they've agreed to stop any stage where more than half the peleton is dismembered (only applies to body members required to pedal and maintain direction).


DaveG said:


> How many people have to die or be dismembered before the scourge of disc brakes is stopped!
> 
> In other news, crashing is dangerous


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Is it not interesting that so far in the racing season, not one single winner, hmm forget winners,... not one single contender, is on disc. And we're talking classics racing in the cold, wet, and dirty weather condition eh. San Remo, the final descent into the finishline was wet and slippery, and not one single guy that mattered was on disc. Me thinks mostly pack fodders are on disc yo!


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## PixelPaul (Oct 8, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> What's funny is they don't mention riders injured by handlebars, stems, chainring, wheels, broken spokes, derailleurs, top and down tubes, other riders' feet, heads, etc.


Racing bikes without handlebars, chainrings and derailleurs would be difficult. Racing without disc brakes is no problem. A totally unnecessary risk, disc brakes are a solution in search of a problem.


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## deapee (May 7, 2014)

I've only tried lower end disc brakes on the road but I'll stick with caliper brakes.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

PixelPaul said:


> Racing bikes without handlebars, chainrings and derailleurs would be difficult. Racing without disc brakes is no problem. A totally unnecessary risk, disc brakes are a solution in search of a problem.


I actually wouldn't really argue with you that discs aren't a solution in search of a problem. For you are correct, discs are not absolutely necessary.

But the risks that people fear of them are overblown. First, should you crash while others are riding discs, you'd have to land on the left side of their bike. And then, you are much more likely to hit their wheel or the fork, since the rotors are behind the fork an in or two (so the triangulation may often keep you from even hitting the rotor.) And in my experience with discs on mountain bikes, the rotors only really get hot when brakes are applied on longish descents, and cool of pretty quickly. So burns may happen, but probably won't be that common.

Discs have been around in mountain biking for a very long time, but nobody seems too worried about their risks. Sure, they don't normally ride around in a peloton other than the start line, but often enough you do have at least a few riders crash together.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> I actually wouldn't really argue with you that discs aren't a solution in search of a problem. For you are correct, discs are not absolutely necessary.
> 
> But the risks that people fear of them are overblown. First, should you crash while others are riding discs, you'd have to land on the left side of their bike. And then, you are much more likely to hit their wheel or the fork, since the rotors are behind the fork an in or two (so the triangulation may often keep you from even hitting the rotor.) And in my experience with discs on mountain bikes, the rotors only really get hot when brakes are applied on longish descents, and cool of pretty quickly. So burns may happen, but probably won't be that common.
> 
> *Discs have been around in mountain biking for a very long time, but nobody seems too worried about their risks. Sure, they don't normally ride around in a peloton other than the start line, but often enough you do have at least a few riders crash together.*


This stupid old argument again....

How long have disc brakes been riding in the pro peloton? Not very long, they just started. And in what numbers are they there? Hardly any. But ALREADY we have a guy who's calf has been butchered open requiring surgery. Not just stitches or burn cream or whatever, surgery.

Please shut the **** up about mountain biking vs road biking when it comes to disc brakes.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> This stupid old argument again....
> 
> How long have disc brakes been riding in the pro peloton? Not very long, they just started. And in what numbers are they there? Hardly any. But ALREADY we have a guy who's calf has been butchered open requiring surgery. Not just stitches or burn cream or whatever, surgery.
> 
> Please shut the **** up about mountain biking vs road biking when it comes to disc brakes.


It's still people on bikes crashing into each other and landing on other bikes. So it actually is relevant, despite your protests to the contrary.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Heads will roll.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

SPlKE said:


> Heads will roll.


Literally!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> This stupid old argument again....
> 
> How long have disc brakes been riding in the pro peloton? Not very long, they just started. And in what numbers are they there? Hardly any. But ALREADY we have a guy who's calf has been butchered open requiring surgery. Not just stitches or burn cream or whatever, surgery.
> 
> Please shut the **** up about mountain biking vs road biking when it comes to disc brakes.




First off, it's speculation as to what happened or how bad it is right now, so cut with your hysterical BS already!

Second, in racing you can also butcher yourself open on a chainring, crack your head open on the pavement, knock your teeth out, lose limbs, poke out an eye, puncture a lung, tear open your belly, break your back/neck, get hit by a service car or support motorcycle, etc., etc.. 
Discs may add "one more thing" you can potentially get hurt from, but stop acting like disc brakes are suddenly making the sport dangerous 



.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

hold on here.. a quick review...

- pro disc guys on RBR have always maintained that disc in mtb has never caused any serious injury in any "mass pile ups" in mtb (if you can call 5 guys scattered throughout the bushs as a mass pile up). Thus, disc should be safe for peloton riding, no problem. Got it.

- then when the pros (you know, guys who get paid to race for a living) voiced their anti disc opinions, they were called ludites by resident "RBR disc advocates". Got it.

- So now when a serious injury surfaced (with just a few guys using disc), the disc advocates turn to the line "oh handlebar can puncture lungs, spoke can chop head off too, it's racing". Got it!!!

But in the meantime, I'm ecstatic to see that the guys that mattered, the contenders, the podium chasers,.. none of them on disc, not a single one. Love it! I'm also equally loving the fact that the 2 teams that sent all their riders on disc... were completely pack fodders. Can we please have some disc proponents in here tell these 2 teams that they were supposed to take advantage of their disc brakes by "out braking" the rim caliper guys in those dirty-and-wet corners and thus take the lead. Cmon now.

Note to self: when seeing a rider with disc, either proceed to try to drop him, and if can't then let him go. Don't get too close to these guys, just in case!


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Didn't trispoke wheels get banned for supposed safety reasons?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> then when the pros (you know, guys who get paid to race for a living) voiced their anti disc opinions, they were called ludites by resident "RBR disc advocates". Got it.



Uh, lets not forget all the anti-disc people referring to those in favor of disc as "sheep", "lemmings" or "suckers" for marketing and so on…. 





> - So now when a serious injury surfaced (with just a few guys using disc), the disc advocates turn to the line "oh handlebar can puncture lungs, spoke can chop head off too, it's racing". Got it!!!


AGAIN, we don't know what happened yet, so stop jumping to conclusions! And no one said you couldn't get injured, the point was that people like you continue to act like discs are the "big bad thing" that will injure you, all the while ignoring the many other things that can also injure you just the same. 




> But in the meantime, I'm ecstatic to see that the guys that mattered, the contenders, the podium chasers,.. none of them on disc, not a single one. Love it! I'm also equally loving the fact that the 2 teams that sent all their riders on disc... were completely pack fodders. Can we please have some disc proponents in here tell these 2 teams that they were supposed to take advantage of their disc brakes by "out braking" the rim caliper guys in those dirty-and-wet corners and thus take the lead. Cmon now.


Yes, based on these results, we all now need aero bikes instead of disc brakes! Clearly Hayman won because of the bike! :thumbsup:

The nonsense you post is unbelievable at times



.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Here is a google image search for "Chain Ring Injuries". Warning, graphic images - not for those with queasy stomachs....

Now that we've established that there are a lot of ways to get <s>hurt</s> *nasty open wounds and amputations* riding a bicycle, can we stop using it as a reason not to put disc brakes on road bikes? 

It's a futile battle anyway. It's inevitable. Just accept it and deal...


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I agree that discs are causing waayyy more injuries than pavement, other bikes or even motorcycles crashing into riders. All this racing should move to Zwift were safety is paramount.

Pittacanna, can you chime in here?


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

"...“It was so deep that you could see the tibia,” García Acosta told El Periodico..."

Ventoso injured by disc brake at Paris-Roubaix | Cyclingnews.com

(Nothing...other than serious injury due to disk brakes on road bikes...is inevitable...just accept and deal!))


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

arai_speed said:


> I agree that discs are causing waayyy more injuries than pavement, other bikes or even motorcycles crashing into riders.


I was just thinking of the motorcycle issue. A motorcycle crashed into a Sky rider in Paris-Roubaix. After the motorcycle caused a death a couple weeks ago, seems like that should be the outrage - not so much the unconfirmed disk brake injury.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Migen21 said:


> Here is a google image search for "Chain Ring Injuries". Warning, graphic images - not for those with queasy stomachs....
> 
> Now that we've established that there are a lot of ways to get <s>hurt</s> *nasty open wounds and amputations* riding a bicycle, can we stop using it as a reason not to put disc brakes on road bikes?
> 
> It's a futile battle anyway. It's inevitable. Just accept it and deal...


If we just accept it and deal, the wanton carnage will just continue! Cycling will turn into a bloodsport. Actually, come to think of it that might improve TV coverage


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> I was just thinking of the motorcycle issue. A motorcycle crashed into a Sky rider in Paris-Roubaix. After the motorcycle caused a death a couple weeks ago, seems like that should be the outrage - not so much the unconfirmed disk brake injury.


well given the MC uses disks...


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## HSracer (Feb 27, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> This stupid old argument again....
> 
> How long have disc brakes been riding in the pro peloton? Not very long, they just started. And in what numbers are they there? Hardly any. But ALREADY we have a guy who's calf has been butchered open requiring surgery. Not just stitches or burn cream or whatever, surgery.
> 
> Please shut the **** up about mountain biking vs road biking when it comes to disc brakes.



Sounds like someone who has never ridden a mountain bike or ridden a disk bike. Yes, there are pile ups in mountain biking. No, there are no injuries from disks.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

den bakker said:


> well given the MC uses disks...


Good point - maybe the UCI should only use drum-brake equipped motorcycles? While we are at it, they should also be shaft driven to avoid potential chain/sprocket injuries to the cyclist they mow down?


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> This stupid old argument again....
> 
> How long have disc brakes been riding in the pro peloton? Not very long, they just started. And in what numbers are they there? Hardly any. But ALREADY we have a guy who's calf has been butchered open requiring surgery. Not just stitches or burn cream or whatever, surgery.
> 
> Please shut the **** up about mountain biking vs road biking when it comes to disc brakes.


I think he made a very good point. you assume too much about your limited knowledge of the science of disc brakes vs flesh. We all do not know enough to have strong opinion about it yet

no need to be rude, condescending and profane. wow


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## bellzisu (May 1, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> hold on here.. a quick review...
> 
> - pro disc guys on RBR have always maintained that disc in mtb has never caused any serious injury in any "mass pile ups" in mtb (if you can call 5 guys scattered throughout the bushs as a mass pile up). Thus, disc should be safe for peloton riding, no problem. Got it.
> 
> ...


I have to laugh at this one.... Really... My Domane has disc brakes. My 2.3 has rim. Number of times I've wrecked causing injury to someone else on either bike--->0

Unless you're racing, I'm sure your fear is completely unwarranted...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Is being "reportedly injured" more or less serious than just being injured?


krtassoc said:


> The first of many!
> 
> Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash
> 
> Movistar rider reportedly injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix crash - Cycling Weekly


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

It's too bad MythBusters is done with, this would have made the perfect episode! Science and actual experimentation to replace emotion and conjecture would be a good thing.

As others have said, right now all the info out there is hear-say so personally I take the story with an ocean's worth of salt. And I certainly wouldn't assume the injured rider is impartial to the greatest bike equipment schism of our time.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Some of the Pro's have asked for rotor covers and it seems like a reasonable idea at this point while the trial period is ongoing.


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

The bicycle industry is in a state of crisis... and the demographics, economics, changing tastes in consumer leisure-time activities, the ever-increasing costs of the equipment,and a badly fragment industry slow to adopt to the realities of a rapidly changing market place...are leading to a significant (negative) impact on long-rem sales growth for the bicycle industry.

Staff Opinion: Early product intros are a scourge ignored by industry brands | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Regarding disk brakes on road bikes...the industry using professional riders as guinea pigs...in order to create in the consumers' mind the tacit endorsement of an unsafe product is...criminal!

This is my 37th year of road bike riding (and in the past, much racing)...and I will state unequivocally that disk brakes in mass start events (professional and or amateur road racing, grand fondos, centuries, etc.) is an unacceptable addition to the risk inherent in the sport. Modern day rim brake calipers and brake pads are more than sufficient to slow or stop a road bike...even in the most inclement weather. 

Disk brakes on road racing bicycles is the industry offering a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. 

I wonder, how many of the advocates for disk brakes on this (and other) boards would change their opinion if their favorite professional rider(s) publicly stated his/her opposition to disk brakes as unnecessary at best and dangerous at worst.? 

My observation after many years in the sport is that many of those relatively new to cycling mimic the professional riders in the cycling equipment, the bicycles they purchase, and even how they sit on the machine (slammed stems, anyone!). 

There have been many useful innovations in the industry since I started cycling; e,g, clip less pedals, light weight helmets, etc. As for the claim that those that disapprove of disk brakes in mass start events being nothing more that Luddites, there have also been many innovations that the industry has offered to consumers that in the end turned out not to be of any meaningful utility...disk brakes on road racing bicycles is one of them.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

BikeLayne said:


> Some of the Pro's have asked for rotor covers and it seems like a reasonable idea at this point while the trial period is ongoing.


I thought of suggesting that, in humor, a few days ago. :lol:

What next? :idea:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

cooskull said:


> It's too bad MythBusters is done with, this would have made the perfect episode! Science and actual experimentation to replace emotion and conjecture would be a good thing.
> 
> As others have said, right now all the info out there is hear-say so personally I take the story with an ocean's worth of salt. And I certainly wouldn't assume the injured rider is impartial to the greatest bike equipment schism of our time.


We've discussed the benefits and tradeoffs of disc brakes. The tradeoffs seem to have won the debate.  Having your leg sliced to the bone is only one. Chain rings don't even do that, because they don't keep spinning during a crash. Ow!


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Well anyone who follows the disc brake debate knew this would happen. We'll see more of this and I'm afraid far worse injuries after more inevitable crashes. The industry will learn from this and redesign disc brakes to ameliorate some of the dangers. The same injuries may will probably occur on group rides that go wrong. Along the way we may even see some class action lawsuits. Of course in some ways disc brakes do make the ride safer, but maybe not in races where they will most likely facilitate faster riding especially on the descents. One thing is clear, peleton cyclists are being used as guinea pigs and that's just not right.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

krtassoc said:


> The bicycle industry is in a state of crisis... and the demographics, economics, changing tastes in consumer leisure-time activities, the ever-increasing costs of the equipment,and a badly fragment industry slow to adopt to the realities of a rapidly changing market place...are leading to a significant (negative) impact on long-rem sales growth for the bicycle industry.
> 
> Staff Opinion: Early product intros are a scourge ignored by industry brands | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
> 
> ...


Yeah, U-Brakes on mountain bikes in the late 80s is one of them. Ditto BioPace chainrings.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

We don't need protective, cardboard rotors or rounding off of disc edges, they just need to put a safety warning sticker near each rotor on the frame to alert the user to the potential hazards. While they are at it that warning should include not sticking your finger in the rotor while it's turning, I've had multiple injuries from doing that and a sticker would have prevented this. I should probably sue over it....


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Srode said:


> We don't need protective, cardboard rotors or rounding off of disc edges, they just need to put a safety warning sticker near each rotor on the frame to alert the user to the potential hazards. While they are at it that warning should include not sticking your finger in the rotor while it's turning, I've had multiple injuries from doing that and a sticker would have prevented this. I should probably sue over it....


 
And how does that help in the event of a crash be it at a race or a group ride? Those rotors can cut just like a sharp knife.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Srode said:


> We don't need protective, cardboard rotors or rounding off of disc edges, they just need to put a safety warning sticker near each rotor on the frame to alert the user to the potential hazards. While they are at it that warning should include not sticking your finger in the rotor while it's turning, I've had multiple injuries from doing that and a sticker would have prevented this. I should probably sue over it....


You really can't understate the importance of a well placed safety sticker, especially yellow ones. I feel safer just thinking about it


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

DaveG said:


> You really can't understate the importance of a well placed safety sticker, especially yellow ones. I feel safer just thinking about it


Sorry but I have bad news for you. The ones at the big show were wearing their own safety stickers. Sadly, the idiot with the mutilated calf that required immediate surgery didn't read it. His bad, now he pays.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Sorry but I have bad news for you. The ones at the big show were wearing their own safety stickers. Sadly, the idiot with the mutilated calf that required immediate surgery didn't read it. His bad, now he pays.


Maybe something like the Surgeon General's warnings we have on cigarettes would help. Rotate a number of statements like:

"disc brakes may cause dismemberment and mutilation"
"do not ride Paris-Roubaix with disc brakes"
"do not operate within 50 feet of another rider"


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bellzisu said:


> I have to laugh at this one.... Really... My Domane has disc brakes. My 2.3 has rim. Number of times I've wrecked causing injury to someone else on either bike--->0
> 
> Unless you're racing, I'm sure your fear is completely unwarranted...


Ugh it's not just in bunch racing. My fear is also rooted in bunch hammering too. There are lots of times when the lead guy will push the pace up to 32-33 mph for a short burst, causing some of the trailing guys to go into oxygen debt and their heads go woozy and their decisions and reactions are now slow, and crashes may happen.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

aclinjury said:


> Ugh it's not just in bunch racing. My fear is also rooted in bunch hammering too. There are lots of times when the lead guy will push the pace up to 32-33 mph for a short burst, causing some of the trailing guys to go into oxygen debt and their heads go woozy and their decisions and reactions are now slow, and crashes may happen.


Like when you got t-boned taking a 180 degree turn at 30mph? If that guy had disc brakes your leg could have been amputated or worse your rear wheel would have been sliced in half!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bellzisu said:


> I have to laugh at this one.... Really... My Domane has disc brakes. My 2.3 has rim. Number of times I've wrecked causing injury to someone else on either bike--->0
> 
> Unless you're racing, I'm sure your fear is completely unwarranted...


I've read some outrageous things on this site but this, what boils down to "crashes only happen in races", might take the cake.

I can understand you having a difference of option on treating disc braked riders as the lepers of cycling but on the grounds that crashes only happen in races is a bit out there.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I've read some outrageous things on this site but this, what boils down to "crashes only happen in races", might take the cake.
> 
> I can understand you having a difference of option on treating disc braked riders as the lepers of cycling but on the grounds that crashes only happen in races is a bit out there.


He didn't say that crashes only happen in races, he said that unless you are racing, the fear of being dismembered by a disc brake equipped bike is unwarranted.

Just last night at the local hammer fest, a crash happened. I didn't take note if any disc brake equipped bikes were involved but luckily for all involved they were able to walk/ride home post crash.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Can we stop this non-sense of equating chainring injuries to disc brake injuries?? (In addition to bringing in mtb bikes?)? It's a complete red herring attempt to divert the issue.

Fact is chainrings have always been a part of road bicycle racing, and they've stuck around for a hundred years because there isn't an easy solution to get rid of them! Got it?

However, for a hundred years, rim brakes have been a part of road racing, and they've been riding this stuff in TdF and Paris Roubaix for a hundred years without much issues. And they decided to change rim brakes (a non-issue to start) to disc brakes (and in the process make it an issue at least in road cycling).

So stop the red herring bs of discussing chainrings.

Now, so far, the pro disc folks have been awfully quite about race results eh. So... where are the advantages of disc eh? So far, all the disc guys are pack fodders. So if disc doesn't give a racing advantage, why use them and in the process introduce a new problem? Answer this, instead of sidestepping the issue by discussing chainrings!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

arai_speed said:


> Like when you got t-boned taking a 180 degree turn at 30mph? If that guy had disc brakes your leg could have been amputated or worse your rear wheel would have been sliced in half!


that's right homie. Fuking weekend warriors thinking they Valentino Rossi in motogp sh*t


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

arai_speed said:


> He didn't say that crashes only happen in races, he said that unless you are racing, the fear of being dismembered by a disc brake equipped bike is unwarranted.


Same thing. Unless you're saying he's saying participants in a non-race crash are immune to any injury that could happen in a race crash.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

PixelPaul said:


> "A totally unnecessary risk, disc brakes are a solution in search of a problem."


100% agree. 
They are idiotic on a road bike.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/injured-ventoso-blasts-use-of-road-discs_402394


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

arai_speed said:


> Like when you got t-boned taking a 180 degree turn at 30mph? If that guy had disc brakes your leg could have been amputated or worse your rear wheel would have been sliced in half!


150 degrees damnit


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## bellzisu (May 1, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Same thing. *Unless you're saying he's saying participants in a non-race crash are immune to any injury that could happen in a race crash*.



Crashes happen all the time.. Solo, group, whatever, they happen and you are not immune to injury. Being afraid to ride around someone because of disc brakes is silly. My original assumption, was that the person I replied to, he was scared to be around anyone with disc brakes in a group or solo.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Injured Ventoso blasts use of road discs - VeloNews.com


Wow, no punches pulled there.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

spdntrxi said:


> 150 degrees damnit


Are you sure? The turn in question was highly secretive...only rumors of it exist.


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

Ventoso: Disc brakes should NEVER have arrived in the peloton - Cycling Weekly

April 13 , 2016 | Madrid 

Open letter: Fran Ventoso


I’ve spent thirteen years in the pro cycling peloton and another thirteen moving up the ladder in youth categories. That makes it 26 years on my bike, training every day, enjoying what I like most, my passion. Since I was six, I’ve enjoyed racing, and I continue to do so. I’m so happy to have turned my vocation into a dream job.

Just like in any other sport, cycling has evolved in many technical aspects. However, it has not done so in others in a way we’d all have liked.

Through all these years, I’ve witnessed many improvements on different parts of the bike and cycling apparel. We started off with steel, then aluminum, and later on, carbon. That last one came here to stay, since it was as rigid as we needed while also offering lightness. We’ve also stopped using toeclips for clipless pedals, much more comfortable, effective and secure. Days are long gone when we used hairnet helmets: modern ones are now lighter, beautiful to the eye and offer absolute security guarantees when you use them.

I’ve also seen very important improvements on gearing. My first bike had one chainring and three sprockets; nowadays, we use two chainrings, even three, and 11 sprockets… and I’m certain it won’t end there. Technology evolution has been a sort of trial and error: getting to this point hasn’t been easy. I remember how easily chains were broken when we first used ten sprockets: links that broke, because of materials still not as resistant as it was required… it still happens today. We could also talk about the revolution that has brought the electronic shifting. When it was first shown and used, we all were surprised and made early judgments: it’s not necessary, it might not work well, carrying batteries seems wrong, having to connect your bike to AC is bonkers… And now, we can’t imagine our bikes without it.

My point is: two years ago, we started seeing disc brakes put on cyclocross bikes, and the rumour was that there could be a chance that they be tested in road cycling events.

Beforehand, I want to make this clear: I’m so in favor as anyone else that cyclocross professionals or participants in sportives enjoy the advantages of disc brakes during their rides.

But then, there’s pro road cycling events. Was there really anyone who thought things like Sunday’s wouldn’t happen? Really nobody thought they were dangerous? Nobody realized they can cut, they can become giant knives?

At Paris-Roubaix, only two teams used them. With eight riders each, that makes it sixteen, carrying a total 32 disc brakes into the peloton. Let me take you to 130km into the race: into a cobbled section, a pile-up splits the field, with riders falling everywhere. I’ve got to break but I can’t avoid crashing against the rider in front of me, who was also trying not to hit the ones ahead. I didn’t actually fall down: it was only my leg touching the back of his bike. I keep riding. But shortly afterwards, I have a glance at that leg: it doesn’t hurt, there’s not a lot of blood covering it, but I can clearly see part of the periosteum, the membrane or surface that covers my tibia. I get off my bike, throw myself against the right-hand side of the road over the grass, cover my face with my hands in shock and disbelief, start to feel sick… I could only wait for my team car and the ambulance, while a lot of things come through my mind.

Just a stroke of bad luck? I don’t thing so: few kilometers later, one of the thoughts I had sitting in the gutter becomes real.

15km after my incident, Nikolas Maes, a rider from Etixx-Quick Step, comes into the very same ambulance I’m sitting in. There’s a deep wound in his knee, produced by another disc, one of those 32. One question comes inevitably and immediately to one’s mind: what will happen when 396 discs get into a race where 198 riders ferociously battle for position?

Disc brakes should have NEVER arrived into the peloton, not at least as we know them right now. I haven’t met any rider who has run out of braking power with traditional brakes; I haven’t known anyone who didn’t see his wheels skidding when you brake with all power you’ve got, no matter traditional or disc brakes. Then: why using them?

Conversely, there are lots of problems to change wheels after a puncture; added trouble for neutral service, which has to carry three or four different sets of wheels to help you out in case your team car is not around… and the most worrying thing, as I stated before, is that disc brakes in its actual concept are giant knives, ‘machetes’ when crashing against or crashed by them at a certain speed. And in some points, we reach 80, 90, 100 kilometres per hour.

I’ve been lucky: I didn’t get my leg chopped off, it’s just some muscle and skin. But can you imagine that disk cutting a jugular or a femoral vein? I would prefer not to.

All of this happens because the international riders’ association –the CPA–, national riders’ associations, international and national feds, teams and, above all of them, OURSELVES, PROFESSIONAL RIDERS, are not doing anything. We always think that it’s not a problem if it doesn’t happen to ourselves. We always wait for horrible things to happen in order to take measures. Sooner or later, it could happen to anybody: it’s a matter of probability, we’ve all got the same. Pro riders should take a look beyond our own belly. Others tell us what we should do, but we just can’t forget WE’VE GOT THE POWER TO CHOOSE, AND WE SHOULD MAKE A CHOICE.

Disks produce cuts. This time it was me; tomorrow, it can be more serious and happen to others.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Having your leg sliced to the bone is only one.


Except no one has proven a disc rotor can cause a critical life threatening laceration. There is just this physical problem that a very dull metal edge is surrounded by many smaller and much sharper metal cutting surfaces (aero spokes). My speculation, it's more likely the rider was cut by the other rider's wheels spokes than the disc. 

Plenty of people still fervently believe vaccinations cause austism and other disorders regardless that the vast body of scientific evidence says otherwise.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

you're welcome!
[


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Question: How does Fran Ventoso cut his left leg (looking at the published pics) when the disc rotors are on the left side of the bike and he supposedly got the cut while the two riders were riding upright the whole time with no crash? How could this be physically possible?


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

^ stuff happens .. Can't always be explaind logically but it's not an impossibility 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Can we stop this non-sense of equating chainring injuries to disc brake injuries?? (In addition to bringing in mtb bikes?)? It's a complete red herring attempt to divert the issue.


No it's not, it points to your hypocrisy. If you are so concerned with rider safety, where is your outrage over all the other preventable dangers in racing?




> Fact is chainrings have always been a part of road bicycle racing, and they've stuck around for a hundred years because there isn't an easy solution to get rid of them! Got it?


Drivetrains can be covered with a plastic shroud, like kids bikes. Easy solution! 




> However, for a hundred years, rim brakes have been a part of road racing, and they've been riding this stuff in TdF and Paris Roubaix for a hundred years without much issues. And they decided to change rim brakes (a non-issue to start) to disc brakes (and in the process make it an issue at least in road cycling).


They rode steel bikes and limited gearing for hundreds of years without issue too. Silly point.



> Now, so far, the pro disc folks have been awfully quite about race results eh. So... where are the advantages of disc eh? So far, all the disc guys are pack fodders.


Speaking of a red herring 

Were the guys on disc brakes expected to be leading the pace? Where there any big descents? 
The only person that claimed that disc brakes were going to miraculously make people win races or become master descenders was *YOU*.



> So if disc doesn't give a racing advantage, why use them and in the process introduce a new problem? Answer this, instead of sidestepping the issue by discussing chainrings!


Because the UCI requires racers to use what is sold to the public, that's why.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

But really, what do the pros know?


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

More carnage from disc brakes accidents. Look how these 2 turned out:


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Fireform said:


> But really, what do the pros know?
> 
> View attachment 313630


That's insane! 

Can someone translate that into English?


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Keoki said:


> That's insane!
> 
> Can someone translate that into English?


It's the beginning of the "open letter" listed in the article - post #69


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> It's the beginning of the "open letter" listed in the article - post #69


Thanks!


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

arai_speed said:


> Are you sure? The turn in question was highly secretive...only rumors of it exist.


I bet if the crash victim were to use The Google, he could provide us with a map or satellite image of Dead Man's Curve.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I've personally taken a chain ring in the face in a high-speed crash and didn't do anything like that to me. Seven little stitches. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to make some sort of guard that would protect riders if it's really that big of a deal - not sure why you'd need discs in a flat one day race anyway.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I think all the guys who are flogging disc brakes in this thread need to go back and read that open letter from the link in number 69. That's the reality. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

These would look totally cool on my C60 disc;


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Hmmm...quote from article:

"...15km after my incident, *Nikolas Maes, a rider from Etixx-Quick Step, comes into the very same ambulance I’m sitting in. There’s a deep wound in his knee, produced by another disc*, one of those 32...."

From Nikolas Maes twitter account:

"*Finished Classics with a crash on Trouée d'Arenberg. A few stiches in the knee and short recovery period! <s>#</s>crash*"

No mention of disc break anything. Read it for yourself: https://twitter.com/nikolas_maes

How about the reality of motorcycles crashing into pileups?

https://twitter.com/r8uge


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Aadub said:


> These would look totally cool on my C60 disc;


4 bolts. Outdated. :nonod:


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> And how does that help in the event of a crash be it at a race or a group ride? Those rotors can cut just like a sharp knife.


And a chainring like a serrated knife............... 

OK, racing is to dangerous. We need to put a mandatory 10 meters between each rider. Drafting will have to go away for safety reasons.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

ziscwg said:


> We need to put a mandatory 10 meters between each rider. Drafting will have to go away for safety reasons.


We already have that, don't we? I thought it's called "time" something...:idea:


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

To be honest, it doesn't sound like the rider even knows how he got the cut on his shin. He claims he had some brief contact with another rider's wheel, and then rode on for awhile before he noticed the cut. To me he admits that he didn't actually witness the disc cutting his leg, only that his leg somehow got cut when he contacted another riders bike during a pileup.
On top of this, his story still does not explain how his left leg managed to make contact with the other rider's rear disc. On the face of it, this is physically impossible if the bike and riders are upright and pointed in the same direction when the contact occurred, which is the orientation his story seems to suggest.

I think most of us skeptics don't disagree with his point of view. Maybe/probably disc brakes are pointless in the pro peloton and their introduction there was both forced upon the riders and half-baked. What I personally have serious doubts about is that the disc themselves are whirling Ginsu knives of decapitation that they are often portrayed to be. Their history of use in mtn bikes seems to suggest they are not, though road biking is a slightly different animal. My $0.02: Let's keep the safety issue squarely in the realm of sound analysis rather than intractable ideology.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Lampre manager not convinced Fran Ventoso's injury was caused by disc brake - Cycling Weekly

Francisco Ventoso said that a disc brake sliced his left shin in Sunday’s Paris-Roubaix, but Lampre-Merida team manager Brent Copeland says he is not convinced after seeing the injury.

Copeland, alongside his rider Federico Zurlo, spent four hours with team Movistar’s Spaniard in the hospital waiting room.

Ventoso crashed on the Quérénaing sector, at 115km to race when Fabian Cancellara (Trek-Segafredo) and Peter Sagan (Tinkoff) were distanced from the favourites, and reports suggested a disc brake from a Direct Energie team bike sliced his shin.

“He was still sitting there in the waiting room at 7pm when we left,” Copeland told Cycling Weekly.

“I saw him when he came in, the cut was really bad, you can see that something sliced his leg. ‘Look at the bottom of the cut,’ Francisco said, ‘You can see it’s cut like a blade from a disc.’

“It looked as though a blade sliced him, but how? I’m not 100% convinced that it was a disc, it could have been aero spokes.”

Given the cut on his left leg and that discs mount on the left side of bikes, Copeland said it becomes harder to believe that it could have been from a disc brake. However, he said it is possible that Ventoso tumbled and landed in such a way for it to happen.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

UCI suspends road disc brakes in races after Ventoso injury | Cyclingnews.com

Guess they decided to take a step back.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

32and3cross said:


> UCI suspends road disc brakes in races after Ventoso injury | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Guess they decided to take a step back.


Great news! If this helps to slow the bike manufacturing industry from forcing everyone to buy road disc in the (near) future, I'm all for it.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

32and3cross said:


> UCI suspends road disc brakes in races after Ventoso injury | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Guess they decided to take a step back.


Mission accomplished


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

Good decision. I could just imagine during a crash if all were disc-brakes equipped. Would be a lot of cuts and blood everywhere. Now, I am a believer that disc brakes are better for wet conditions and going down hill but the safety of the riders must come first so I have no problems if it is never allowed in pro races.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> And how does that help in the event of a crash be it at a race or a group ride? Those rotors can cut just like a sharp knife.


It was a joke, just like many of hte other posts on the thread.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Should never have been approved in the first place.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fireform said:


> I've personally taken a chain ring in the face in a high-speed crash and didn't do anything like that to me. Seven little stitches.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well you would not be riding at high speed in the small ring so I am going to assume your chain was on the big ring. I believe the chain on the big ring has a safety margin to it.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> I thought of suggesting that, in humor, a few days ago. :lol:
> 
> What next? :idea:


Well I said it in humor mostly however somewhere back in the threads there was a link to what the Pro's think and one of them suggested that. Obviously they are not going to put Cadillac fenders on disc brakes. I personally think if the rotor edge is rounded it would aid in guiding the wheel in place and improve safety from cuts and such. . I do not believe that disc brakes are particularly unsafe and improved braking is certainly a safe feature. However I am going to skip it myself and will stay with calipers.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

BikeLayne said:


> Well you would not be riding at high speed in the small ring so I am going to assume your chain was on the big ring. I believe the chain on the big ring has a safety margin to it.


It wasn't my chainring. And when it hit me it didn't have a chain on it at all.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

QED. As predicted.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

32and3cross said:


> UCI suspends road disc brakes in races after Ventoso injury | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Guess they decided to take a step back.


No, this is a step forward. Only the 50+ year olds that ride disks (too pu$$y to go downhill at 50+ mph) would view it as a step back.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Keoki said:


> No, this is a step forward. Only the 50+ year olds that ride disks (too pu$$y to go downhill at 50+ mph) would view it as a step back.


I get ya... but it's take a step back.(as in look at more closely). not viewed as a step back..How I read it anyways....I'm not in favor of road disc either


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

spdntrxi said:


> I get ya... but it's take a step back.(as in look at more closely). not viewed as a step back..How I read it anyways....I'm not in favor of road disc either


I see what you're saying. In that case, yeah, it's a step back for sure.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> Should never have been approved in the first place.


I've been riding rim brakes for 30 years and I don't plan on stopping.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Jwiffle said:


> It's still people on bikes crashing into each other and landing on other bikes. So it actually is relevant, despite your protests to the contrary.


And lest we forget too that disk brakes are used in cross racing.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> I've been riding rim brakes for 30 years and I don't plan on stopping.


LMAO, this is worded so funny.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fireform said:


> It wasn't my chainring. And when it hit me it didn't have a chain on it at all.


 Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

froze said:


> LMAO, this is worded so funny.


Beat me to it. 

Either way, what a total joke. I think pro cyclists are placed more in danger by support cars/motorcycles and foam fingers than by disc brake rotors.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I believe the disc brake thing was a trial anyway and now it has been suspended. I am suprised by the UCI ruling sort of but it is what it is.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

The suspension will likely lead to a force of innovation/change on the safety aspect. That can only be a good thing. Change is good. Good time for everyone to agree on a standard too, like a real standard and a real agreement. 

Get it all sorted and standardized, make it safer, by then the wheel guys will have made new disc optimized shapes and the frames will all have some sort of standard to work from that will probably benefit from the new wheels. Once it's all sorted and safe enough then do it. 

Standard should include everything by the way from brake fluid type to rotor size and attachment to caliper attachment to hub spacing to axle type and size and you know, everything.

Disc brake's secret weapon is the wheel manufacturers like Enve and Zipp. The smaller guys that will be pumping out different and for sure "much more aero" wheels without having to deal with a brake track at all. The gains they'll be able to make will trump any losses from the discs and therefore make a better overall package.

Disc brakes will be back, hopefully though they'll have their **** together by then.


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## akamp (Jan 14, 2009)

I have cut myself relatively deeply in a rotor on my mountain bike and severely burned my calf another time on the rotor. Both times were one man crashes (yours truly). I wouldn't want to be in a 15 or 20 man pileup with a bunch of hot disks. They make sense for touring with loads, cross, mountain bikes etc but I see no reason for disks on a racing bike. My calipers stop well enough with one finger. I am having a custom road bike built and it sure as heck won't have disks. Figure I will do the direct mount calipers though


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

32and3cross said:


> UCI suspends road disc brakes in races after Ventoso injury | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Guess they decided to take a step back.



About fking time. Hopefully they will pull the plug on disc permanently in pro racing! Adios disc!!!

Oh but I don't expect the manufacturers will be happy with this suspension. They'll likely be back, this time with a DISC COVER on it! Hahaha imagine all the Freds and their fugly disc covers looking like drum brakes yo!! man that will be a sight to behold lol.

I'm afraid the short but disasterous experiment of disc has proven to be itself to offer ZERO benefits in a race but full of liability. Adios to this stupid experiment, hopefully forever in the pro peloton!

This will not sit well with the "RBR pro disc peloton" crowds at all. Oh you bet they will continue to doubt the injury of Ventoso, they'll continue to bring in motorcycle bullshit, they'll continue to bring up the mountain biking bullshit. At they end of the day, it's all armchairs bringing up bullshit,.. leave the racing to thr pros, kiddies. When pros say they don't like, don't want... sit your ass down and listen.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

akamp said:


> I have cut myself relatively deeply in a rotor on my mountain bike and severely burned my calf another time on the rotor. Both times were one man crashes (yours truly). I wouldn't want to be in a 15 or 20 man pileup with a bunch of hot disks. They make sense for touring with loads, cross, mountain bikes etc but I see no reason for disks on a racing bike. My calipers stop well enough with one finger. I am having a custom road bike built and it sure as heck won't have disks. *Figure I will do the direct mount calipers though*


Trek Madone 9 series have direct mount rim brake calipers. Work awesome.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> About fking time. Hopefully they will pull the plug on disc permanently in pro racing! Adios disc!!!
> 
> Oh but I don't expect the manufacturers will be happy with this suspension. They'll likely be back, this time with a DISC COVER on it! Hahaha imagine all the Freds and their fugly disc covers looking like drum brakes yo!! man that will be a sight to behold lol.
> 
> ...


I'd add to this, but... there's nothing else to say! RIP stooopid f'ing road discs!


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Keoki said:


> No, this is a step forward. Only the 50+ year olds that ride disks (too pu$$y to go downhill at 50+ mph) would view it as a step back.


I'm almost 60, hate f'ing road discs, and hit 50+mph (and more) on a weekly basis on twisting downhills - it's a blast!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> This will not sit well with the "RBR pro disc peloton" crowds at all. Oh you bet they will continue to doubt the injury of Ventoso, they'll continue to bring in motorcycle bullshit, they'll continue to bring up the mountain biking bullshit. At they end of the day, it's all armchairs bringing up bullshit,.. leave the racing to thr pros, kiddies. When pros say they don't like, don't want... sit your ass down and listen.



That's funny, because I recall it was you, in your armchair, who would frequently bring motorcycles and mountain bikes into the arguments. But hey, of all your BS arguments, at least you got this one thing right, congratulations! :thumbsup:


And why should I care what pros want, it has no relevance to me or what I want? 



.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

OldChipper said:


> I'm almost 60, hate f'ing road discs, and hit 50+mph (and more) on a weekly basis on twisting downhills - it's a blast!


50mph? you're so rad.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

den bakker said:


> 50mph? you're so rad.


Well a 2 looks like a 5 when viewed through bifocals….


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

all the early adopters...

tsk tsk tsk...


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

32and3cross said:


> UCI suspends road disc brakes in races after Ventoso injury | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Guess they decided to take a step back.


Obviously UCI didn't consider all the mountain bikers who have been totally riding disk brakes for millions of miles and coming out of gnarly crashes without any rotor-lacerations (rotorcerations) or rotor-amputations (rotorputations).

UCI should sack up and participate in some of our debates here at RBR.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> all the early adopters...
> 
> tsk tsk tsk...


Oh, you think this is going to stop the development of disc brakes do you? How cute


.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> That's funny, because I recall it was you, in your armchair, who would frequently bring motorcycles and mountain bikes into the arguments. But hey, of all your BS arguments, at least you got this one thing right, congratulations! :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> And why should I care what pros want, it has no relevance to me or what I want?
> ...


I did mention motorcycle, but that's regarding similarities (albeit not exact) in handling of 2-wheeled vehicles. So your recall is.. wrong. I knew you would comeback with that. Nice try, nice try!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I did mention motorcycle, but that's regarding similarities (albeit not exact) in handling of 2-wheeled vehicles. So your recall is.. wrong. I knew you would comeback with that. Nice try, nice try!


I guess it's only ok to bring up those things when it suits your argument.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I guess it's only ok to bring up those things when it suits your argument.


adios to disc amigo


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> adios to disc amigo


Doubtful chief

.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Doubtful chief
> 
> .


I see drum disc for you


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I see drum disc for you


And a coaster brake for you.

Any more nonsense you want to add?

.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The innovation change needed is not rocket science. The reason discs are sharp is because manufacturers don't want to have to add a step to the process. Taking a file to the edges does nothing to the performance and makes getting cut by the back edge of a butter knife more likely.

The fact that the team management didn't take that precaution is amazing.

During a MTride through Patagonia in 2011, one of our guides seriously cut his hand doing maintenance on one of the mountain bikes (many stitches). When I purchased my road bike a little over two years ago I did a few of our regular descents before radiusing the edges to see if I could detect any difference. I cannot.


MMsRepBike said:


> The suspension will likely lead to a force of innovation/change on the safety aspect. That can only be a good thing. Change is good. Good time for everyone to agree on a standard too, like a real standard and a real agreement.
> 
> Get it all sorted and standardized, make it safer, by then the wheel guys will have made new disc optimized shapes and the frames will all have some sort of standard to work from that will probably benefit from the new wheels. Once it's all sorted and safe enough then do it.
> 
> ...


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> The innovation change needed is not rocket science. The reason discs are sharp is because manufacturers don't want to have to add a step to the process. Taking a file to the edges does nothing to the performance and makes getting cut by the back edge of a butter knife more likely.
> 
> The fact that the team management didn't take that precaution is amazing.
> 
> During a MTride through Patagonia in 2011, one of our guides seriously cut his hand doing maintenance on one of the mountain bikes (many stitches). When I purchased my road bike a little over two years ago I did a few of our regular descents before radiusing the edges to see if I could detect any difference. I cannot.


It's the manufacturer that is to blame, not the team. They knew this was a potential problem and they ignored it. It's too bad because that may not get a second chance.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

I imagine there will be changes to the way rotors are engineered for this very reason. seems and easy fix, and a no brainer in the face of fears in the pro peleton.

but it is also very odd that the easily 100,000x as many road bikes out there already with discs than the number of pros using them ... not much mention of tissue damage from them at all from what I can tell. a few anecdotes being insufficient data


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## Klassikbike (Feb 28, 2014)

I call this outing from Ventoso utter cr*p and a lie.
Yes he got injured badly and it really does look terrible, I hope he can find good recovery quickly. And I feel sorry for him to have to go through this.
But both statements of him and of Nikolas Maes being cut by Discs is just pure lye and speculation with no evidence whatsoever. He says Maes got cut by a disc in his crash buildup. Strange here in the crash buildup of several riders, not a single one was of the two teams equipped with disc brakes. 
For Ventosos crash he said it happened without crashing during riding when he came into contact with another rider. With the disc being on the left side and his injury being on the left outer side of his leg it physically and technically the injuries cannot have been caused by the discs. Could only have been caused by the oponents spokes, wheel or derailleur.

The reaction from the UCI was prematured and unprofessionnal. Sure its normal that they are investigating this scene but imediatly putting in a ban sounds like what a 5 year old bmx rider would do.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Klassikbike said:


> I call this outing from Ventoso utter cr*p and a lie.
> Yes he got injured badly and it really does look terrible, I hope he can find good recovery quickly. And I feel sorry for him to have to go through this.
> But both statements of him and of Nikolas Maes being cut by Discs is just pure lye and speculation with no evidence whatsoever. He says Maes got cut by a disc in his crash buildup. Strange here in the crash buildup of several riders, not a single one was of the two teams equipped with disc brakes.
> For Ventosos crash he said it happened without crashing during riding when he came into contact with another rider. With the disc being on the left side and his injury being on the left outer side of his leg it physically and technically the injuries cannot have been caused by the discs. Could only have been caused by the oponents spokes, wheel or derailleur.
> ...


You have proof Ventoso lied? You happen to know what his motivations for lying.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I imagine there will be changes to the way rotors are engineered for this very reason. seems and easy fix, and a no brainer in the face of fears in the pro peleton.
> 
> but it is also very odd that the easily 100,000x as many road bikes out there already with discs than the number of pros using them ... not much mention of tissue damage from them at all from what I can tell. a few anecdotes being insufficient data


I get your point but I am not sure there are 100,000 disc road bikes in existence at this point. I dont think the market is that large. Maybe an industry insider could weigh in


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## Klassikbike (Feb 28, 2014)

Well he said that Maes also was cut by a disc rotor in his crash. Later pictures of the crash scene showed no bike with disc brakes was involved in the crash.
So it doesn´t have to be a lie but it is an incorrect statement.

For Ventosos accident, its just difficult to say or prove but from how Ventoso explained how his accident happened it just seems impossible to be hit by the rotor on the outer left upper leg. 
During both counterparties riding sure, a hit on the right leg might be possible but to the left. 

Motivations or reasons, thats difficult to say. One factor can be that some pro riders do not like discs and are against them for different reasons, same goes for teams and mechanics. Others really like using them.
There was some protests from riders just before the testing phase of the UCI was implemented, fear of the unknown, fear of injuries, fear of chaos and slow wheel changes...
From some of Ventosos outings it does sound as if he was one of the riders that is clearly against using discs in the peletons.

On a different side note, it makes me laugh reading how everyyone says discs are razor sharp spinning blades.
Did you ever touch a disc? My shoes soles outers are more sharp than a disc rotor.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

In a crash, it is very hard to reconstruct exactly what happened. But something did and someone got slashed by a disk. Probably from another bike/rider who avoided going down but was passing close enough that the disk hit him while he was on the ground and the disk bike kept on going. 

I see a liability suite in his future.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

duriel said:


> I see a liability suite in his future.


Not a disc fan, but a lawsuit would be ridiculous. Racing is dangerous. That is well understood and accepted by all the riders. There are lots of ways to get injured while racing. Lets keep litigation out of it


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Alright...so here's an article from a Polish cycling site which shows some sort of claw looking thing on the rear chain stay. Sure looks like some sort of a heat-sink attached to a disc system. 

Maybe the injury was more of a gouge/tear rather than slice from a rotor blade. Maybe it's a hydro thing and not a blade thing.

List Ventoso. UCI zawiesiła stosowanie tarczówek - Rowery.org

found it... heatsink on Shimano system https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.net...e_rear-flat-mount-disc-brake-cooling-fins.jpg


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveG said:


> Not a disc fan, but a lawsuit would be ridiculous. Racing is dangerous. That is well understood and accepted by all the riders. There are lots of ways to get injured while racing. Lets keep litigation out of it


I think a liability suite may happen. The rider association did vehemently voiced their opinion against disc. If for example, in court, it's shown that the majority of Tour riders are against it disc,... then I can see a jury rewarding Ventoso some money. However, the savior for the UCI here is that they have not "forced" disc on every rider, it was an optional thing, and this will probably save the UCI in court. Yeah why did you think the UCI was so quick to suspend disc??? They saw potential liabiliy and cut it off now, despite some in the RBR disc peloton questing this and questioning that how Ventoso got cut and blah blah blah.

I also don't think Ventoso will sue because the money involved would be just too small, what a few thousand? Now if Ventoso were to get a laceration across his eye and lose eyesight and livelihood, then it's game on for the lawyers I think.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

I'm sure lots of attorneys are seeing the potential liability now that they may not have before... No question the industry will have to develop a way to make them safer. The disc equivalent of lawyer tabs will be upon us really soon, my guess is they'll put a heat resistant rubberized coating on anything with an edge.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

It's over. We won.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I think a liability suite may happen. The rider association did vehemently voiced their opinion against disc. If for example, in court, it's shown that the majority of Tour riders are against it disc,... then I can see a jury rewarding Ventoso some money. However, the savior for the UCI here is that they have not "forced" disc on every rider, it was an optional thing, and this will probably save the UCI in court. Yeah why did you think the UCI was so quick to suspend disc??? They saw potential liabiliy and cut it off now, despite some in the RBR disc peloton questing this and questioning that how Ventoso got cut and blah blah blah.
> 
> I also don't think Ventoso will sue because the money involved would be just too small, what a few thousand? Now if Ventoso were to get a laceration across his eye and lose eyesight and livelihood, then it's game on for the lawyers I think.


Why just sue the UCI? Let's sue Movistar, Shimano, the race organizer, Canyon bikes, Direct Energie, Specialized (just because), and the town of Roubaix.


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

Eddy Merckx: Disc brakes too dangerous for racing. (But hey, what does this old Luddite really know about anything?)

Eddy Merckx: Disc brakes too dangerous for racing - VeloNews.com

"...Less than two weeks ago, Eddy Merckx spoke rather prophetically about disc brakes in pro road racing..."


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

I love all these people saying disc brake rotors aren't sharp. Well a knife isn't sharp if you simply touch your finger to it. But when you come flying into a disc rotor at 30+mph, you can be damn sure they are sharp. Ever seen an ice skate? The blade is probably twice as thick as a disc rotor, but you can get severely injured by those! It's all about how much force you are applying with an object.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

Klassikbike said:


> I call this outing from Ventoso utter cr*p and a lie.
> Yes he got injured badly and it really does look terrible, I hope he can find good recovery quickly. And I feel sorry for him to have to go through this.
> But both statements of him and of Nikolas Maes being cut by Discs is just pure lye and speculation with no evidence whatsoever. He says Maes got cut by a disc in his crash buildup. Strange here in the crash buildup of several riders, not a single one was of the two teams equipped with disc brakes.
> For Ventosos crash he said it happened without crashing during riding when he came into contact with another rider. With the disc being on the left side and his injury being on the left outer side of his leg it physically and technically the injuries cannot have been caused by the discs. Could only have been caused by the oponents spokes, wheel or derailleur.
> ...


Who cares, what difference does it make? The riders have made it abundantly clear they do NOT want discs in the peloton. And in this case, the UCI agreed. This isn't going to stop manufacturers from making disc brake bikes, so how does this affect you in any way? The riders feel it is unsafe in their profession (correct or not), and want them out. There's a reason why aluminum bats aren't allowed in major league baseball, even though I'm sure some hitters would love to use them.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

factory feel said:


> It's over. We won.


Congratulations! What did you win?


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

aruyt said:


> Who cares, what difference does it make?


I'm with you here. I'm not a pro and I don't watch pro racing, so whatever they do/prefer means squat to me.

Happy riding.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

aruyt said:


> Who cares, what difference does it make? The riders have made it abundantly clear they do NOT want discs in the peloton. And in this case, the UCI agreed. This isn't going to stop manufacturers from making disc brake bikes, so how does this affect you in any way? The riders feel it is unsafe in their profession (correct or not), and want them out. There's a reason why aluminum bats aren't allowed in major league baseball, even though I'm sure some hitters would love to use them.


We all love the broken bat hits and the players love the parts flying at them.

Yet, all we see is woodies at the the plate. I wonder why that is????

Also, CARBON bats should be allowed now. Vibration dampening and HRs in every inning.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

ziscwg said:


> We all love the broken bat hits and the players love the parts flying at them.
> 
> Yet, all we see is woodies at the the plate. I wonder why that is????
> 
> Also, CARBON bats should be allowed now. Vibration dampening and HRs in every inning.


Well ok, probably a poor analogy, the point was a juiced up major leaguer can kill a pitcher with a ball struck back at them. So can a ball hit by a wood bat, but aluminum is more dangerous, just as disc rotors are more dangerous than rim brakes.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

*UCI Disc Ruling --- What's next?*

O.K. the UCI Disc brake trial period is over, or at the least suspended, now what's the trickle down?

How does USA Cycling react to the first Vet or Cat3 racer injured in a crash involving a bicycle with Disc Brakes (valid for non-UCI sanctioned events, right?). For that matter, what about the club rider injured in a crash on a training ride by the chosen equipment of his/her buddy? Litigation?

One thing I haven't yet heard mentioned is the impact of disc brake usage in a paceline or large peloton. Following riders with rim brakes there is a certain degree of perception as to when brakes are being applied up ahead. I'm guessing there is much less warning of braking when disc brakes are subtly applied.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

This is all beside the point from my perspective. I did not spend the 5 minutes it took to radius the edges of my discs for fear of injury in a crash. I did it for fear of cutting myself while mounting tubulars or working on/cleaning the bike.

While I'm usually the first to defend manufacturers, there is little excuse for putting out sharp rotors other than being able to reduce the cost/price a few cents.

The seriousness of the injury of our guide on the Patagonia trip left a lasting impression on me and the other seven riders in our group. 

The team manager of this pro team must have just fallen off the turnip truck to be oblivious to the dangers of having sharp objects on bikes. His team mechanic could have solved the problem by spending 5 minutes on each bike's discs before issuing the bikes to the riders.


DaveG said:


> I get your point but I am not sure there are 100,000 disc road bikes in existence at this point. I dont think the market is that large. Maybe an industry insider could weigh in


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Anybody saying that Shimano discs are not sharp from the factory has never used them. The notion of riding with them the way them come from the factory is an extension of Darwin's Natural Selection. 

I stated in a thread a long time ago that this problem will be solved immediately after someone sues. 

Until then, we all need to simply radius our edges ourselves (and to move our quick release levers to the right side to eliminate disc rub issues). This combination is a one-time thing that will take a total of ten minutes when you get your new bike. 

It's best to take your wheels off the bike and file the edges while rotating the wheels in a truing stand to avoid getting filings in the pads.


aruyt said:


> I love all these people saying disc brake rotors aren't sharp. Well a knife isn't sharp if you simply touch your finger to it. But when you come flying into a disc rotor at 30+mph, you can be damn sure they are sharp. Ever seen an ice skate? The blade is probably twice as thick as a disc rotor, but you can get severely injured by those! It's all about how much force you are applying with an object.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Have disc brakes really led to injuries in peloton? | road.cc



.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

arai_speed said:


> Congratulations! What did you win?


we stopped the insanity of greed.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The idea that applying the brakes on a disc bike necessitates more erradic or sudden deceleration is incorrect. The precision and predictability of discs causes the opposite to be the case. 

Unexpected emergency stops may be an exception since precision braking can provide shorter stopping distances.


GKSki said:


> O.K. the UCI Disc brake trial period is over, or at the least suspended, now what's the trickle down?
> 
> How does USA Cycling react to the first Vet or Cat3 racer injured in a crash involving a bicycle with Disc Brakes (valid for non-UCI sanctioned events, right?). For that matter, what about the club rider injured in a crash on a training ride by the chosen equipment of his/her buddy? Litigation?
> 
> One thing I haven't yet heard mentioned is the impact of disc brake usage in a paceline or large peloton. Following riders with rim brakes there is a certain degree of perception as to when brakes are being applied up ahead. I'm guessing there is much less warning of braking when disc brakes are subtly applied.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

factory feel said:


> we stopped the insanity of greed.


nice retort!:thumbsup:


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

SwiftSolo said:


> Anybody saying that Shimano discs are not sharp from the factory has never used them. The notion of riding with them the way them come from the factory is an extension of Darwin's Natural Selection.
> 
> I stated in a thread a long time ago that this problem will be solved immediately after someone sues.
> 
> ...


You can file all you want, but you can't change the thickness (or thin-ness) of a rotor. Again...ice skates are probably more than twice as thick and have caused a lot of severe injuries and cuts. Just search for NHL skate injuries...if you have the stomach for it!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

but obviously not regular insanity!


aruyt said:


> nice retort!:thumbsup:


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

DaveG said:


> I get your point but I am not sure there are 100,000 disc road bikes in existence at this point. I dont think the market is that large. Maybe an industry insider could weigh in


hey one poster noted that his LBS had disc brakes only on all the new road bikes this year. so considering that millions of bikes are sold each year AND there are probably millions of various training/touring/gravel/cross bikes out there being ridden in club rides, I think it is a safe bet that there are 100,000x as many being ridden by enthusiasts today. Because the number n the pro peleton is an extremely small #, makes their portion tiny.

but hey, if the UCI and pro cycling can cause some innovation and insight like it has in the past, so be it.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> we stopped the insanity of greed.



Who's we? All you did is whine on an internet forum :hand:


.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

MoPho said:


> Who's we? All you did is whine on an internet forum :hand:
> 
> 
> .


Losing a debate in the interwebs is hard. Don't let it make you bitter.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

factory feel said:


> we stopped the insanity of greed.


You sure did!

I'm patiently waiting for this to drop in price...

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/sworks-venge-vias-di2-usa/115098


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Fireform said:


> Losing a debate in the interwebs is hard. Don't let it make you bitter.


What debate was that? I lost track.

Was it?

"Do disc brakes belong in the pro peloton?"
"Are disc brakes better than rim brakes?"
"I don't want my choices limited because of evil manufactures pushing disc brakes on new bikes...the UCI needs to do something"
"To file or not file down new rotors?"
"Do these rotors make my @$$ look fat?"


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> hey one poster noted that his LBS had disc brakes only on all the new road bikes this year. so considering that millions of bikes are sold each year AND there are probably millions of various training/touring/gravel/cross bikes out there being ridden in club rides, I think it is a safe bet that there are 100,000x as many being ridden by enthusiasts today. Because the number n the pro peleton is an extremely small #, makes their portion tiny.
> 
> but hey, if the UCI and pro cycling can cause some innovation and insight like it has in the past, so be it.



I decided to do some research. According to the National Bike Dealers Assoc. there are 3790 bike shop in the US and each sells an average of 650 bikes, 20% of which are road bikes. If 20% of those were disc brakes you could get to close to 100K just in the US. There were 16 disc bikes in Paris-Roubaix, so 100,000x might be a stretch even worldwide. I see a lot of disc brake bikes in the shops but very few on the road. There are zero in my garage


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Fireform said:


> Losing a debate in the interwebs is hard. Don't let it make you bitter.


No one likes a gloater. 

And I didn't lose anything, what pros ride has no affect on me, and you're a fool if you think that this will stop disc brakes on road bikes. 


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

arai_speed said:


> You sure did!
> 
> I'm patiently waiting for this to drop in price...
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/sworks-venge-vias-di2-usa/115098



It will, when the disc brake version comes out 


.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

arai_speed said:


> You sure did!
> 
> I'm patiently waiting for this to drop in price...
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/sworks-venge-vias-di2-usa/115098


I'm waiting for it to drop in weight


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

MoPho said:


> It will, when the disc brake version comes out





spdntrxi said:


> I'm waiting for it to drop in weight


Hmmmm...we have a conundrum here....when the disc brake version comes out the price will drop as it will be a death machine slicing limbs off on the local MUT. At the same time, disc brakes add weight and presumably no other advantage except maybe them coming out in the next MadMax movie.

I say we take it one step at a time and see if the price drops as greed has been stopped today (yesterday) thanks to the UCI.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Holy moley--you can't be serious. 

If ice skate blades were 10 times as thick, the edges would still be just exactly as sharp as the are now (they are flat or hollow between edges). 

I checked and my shimano ice rotors are thicker than a standard table knifes top edge (not the sharp edge). Have you ever tried to cut yourself with the back edge of a table knife?

Currently, like skate blades, Shimano rotors are sharp on the edges and flat as a pancake between edges. When new, you can easily cut yourself on them. With a filed radius, you cannot.


aruyt said:


> You can file all you want, but you can't change the thickness (or thin-ness) of a rotor. Again...ice skates are probably more than twice as thick and have caused a lot of severe injuries and cuts. Just search for NHL skate injuries...if you have the stomach for it!


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

US is only a tiny fraction of world market for bikes. Less than 10% of bikes are in the USA.

Bicycles produced in the world - Worldometers

there have been 41,000,000 bikes produced globally this year (Jan-April), and last year 100M total for 12 months. if 20% of them have discs, that is 8.2 million bikes with discs in a year. Which is 512,000 x as many as used in the pro peleton trial.

there are 2 gravel bikes in my house with discs. 4 road bikes without discs. 2 mtn bikes w discs. I am in no hurry to go buy another road bike with discs at all. But if I was buying a road bike, I'd seriously consider one with discs.


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## PeaBrain (Dec 23, 2010)

*UCI temporary ban for disc brakes used on road bikes.*

I for one am happy the UCI took this stance. I can write a long paragraph explaining all my views but I won't. This move is going to cost the bike industry dearly but you know what, I don't give a damn. The move to put them on road bikes should never have happened to begin with.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

PeaBrain said:


> I for one am happy the UCI took this stance. I can write a long paragraph explaining all my views but I won't. This move is going to cost the bike industry dearly but you know what, I don't give a damn. The move to put them on road bikes should never have happened to begin with.




can you not see there are already 4,500 threads whining about road bike discs?

and the latest thread with the exact same topic was just moved off this subforum just hours ago


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## PeaBrain (Dec 23, 2010)

You could have told me that without the name calling. I didn't know but I will look for it.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

BCSaltchucker said:


> if 20% of them have discs, that is 8.2 million bikes with discs in a year. Which is 512,000 x as many as used in the pro peleton trial.


So now I understand why the Bozo World believes that it is the pro peleton that is driving the disc brake movement (the "tnemevom ekarb csid" translated for Bozites)


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

ok sorry . but anyone starting new disc brake thread is getting clobbered lately. for good reason. stirs the pot


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

PeaBrain said:


> You could have told me that without the name calling. I didn't know but I will look for it.


by "didn't know" you mean did not bother to even casually glance at the front page of the sub forum? (4 posts on page one).


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

PeaBrain said:


> I for one am happy the UCI took this stance. I can write a long paragraph explaining all my views but I won't. This move is going to cost the bike industry dearly but you know what, I don't give a damn. The move to put them on road bikes should never have happened to begin with.


Wait, they are putting disc brakes on road bikes now? When did this happen? Why didn't I hear about this at RBR?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Do Nascar and F1 and whatever use ABS brake systems?

You can put whatever the hell you want on consumer bikes. Race bikes though... Get your **** straight first... real straight.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Do Nascar and F1 and whatever use ABS brake systems?
> 
> You can put whatever the hell you want on consumer bikes. Race bikes though... Get your **** straight first... real straight.


NASCAR still uses carburetors. How many cars are made with that tech any more?


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

What I don't get though, is if both the Movistar rider and the bike he ran into both stayed upright, so didn't actually crash as such, just how the hell did he get that injry?? 

I can see if bikes are flying everywhere in a pile up, upside down, wrong way round, arms and legs going everywhere etc, but not in his situation. Seems a bit weird.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> NASCAR still uses carburetors. How many cars are made with that tech any more?


I think in places such as India, Russia and Africa the carbuetor is alive and well due to the cost and ease of repairs to the vehicle.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

PBL450 said:


> NASCAR still uses carburetors. How many cars are made with that tech any more?


Probably not the ones that have figured out how to turn right.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Road discs got the boot and now it's just the history of the sport. That seems to sum it up and for me it's time to move on.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

BikeLayne said:


> Road discs got the boot and now it's just the history of the sport. That seems to sum it up and for me it's time to move on.


Watching the bike industry stumble over itself while trying to convince us (and pros) that discs belong on performance road bikes has been hilarious. Just as funny have been the few people I've seen (only on the internet, never met one in real life) who fell for it and argue for their "disc racing bike" and how rim brakes will disappear.

If anyone with a racing bike wants better braking all they have to do is hand in their carbon rims for a set of alloy. Crickets....


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

PBL450 said:


> NASCAR still uses carburetors. How many cars are made with that tech any more?


Actually the Sprint Cup Series went to fuel injection in 2012. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Guys, I doubt that anyone in the peloton has a personal vendetta against disk brakes, so I can't see the reason in wanting to create a story like this.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> NASCAR still uses carburetors. How many cars are made with that tech any more?


Actually they use them because they can use restrictor plates in them. Harder to cheat with a carb than with electronic ECU controlled fuel injection... Good thing VW is not into Nascar...

There is discussions going on about moving to EFI


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Lelandjt said:


> If anyone with a racing bike wants better braking all they have to do is hand in their carbon rims for a set of alloy. Crickets....


Totally agree. Anyone with any road riding/racing experience knows the limits of adhesion can be exceeded with rim brakes. If you can skid with road calipers, which you can, proves these stupid, and heavy disc brakes are simply NOT needed. Only clowns will have that crap on a road bike. The same type that pays extra for "corrosion coating" on a new car.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

Notvintage said:


> Totally agree. Anyone with any road riding/racing experience knows the limits of adhesion can be exceeded with rim brakes. If you can skid with road calipers, which you can, proves these stupid, and heavy disc brakes are simply NOT needed. Only clowns will have that crap on a road bike. The same type that pays extra for "corrosion coating" on a new car.


Now now, no reason for name calling. I happen to like having discs on my road bike. To me, they are easier to maintain and set than rim brakes. Is that my own deficiency as it relates to rim brake maintenance, sure, but it is also my choice, and I am by no means a clown.

And no, I don't pay for *anti*-corrosion coating.. Although.. corrosion coating might be the next business tactic of the dealer industry, forced decomposition of vehicle bodies will result in more dealer sales...


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> Totally agree. Anyone with any road riding/racing experience knows the limits of adhesion can be exceeded with rim brakes. If you can skid with road calipers, which you can, proves these stupid, and heavy disc brakes are simply NOT needed. Only clowns will have that crap on a road bike. The same type that pays extra for "corrosion coating" on a new car.



And only clowns still use the "I can skid with caliper brakes" argument :mad2:


.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

krtassoc said:


> The bicycle industry is in a state of crisis... and the demographics, economics, changing tastes in consumer leisure-time activities, the ever-increasing costs of the equipment,and a badly fragment industry slow to adopt to the realities of a rapidly changing market place...are leading to a significant (negative) impact on long-rem sales growth for the bicycle industry.
> 
> Staff Opinion: Early product intros are a scourge ignored by industry brands | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
> 
> ...


Hesjedal does not like disc brakes in the peloton. 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The dangers of disc brakes in the pro peloton <a href="https://twitter.com/michaelibarry">@michaelibarry</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/ryder_hesjedal">@ryder_hesjedal</a> <a href="https://t.co/4Vrj6Brv77">https://t.co/4Vrj6Brv77</a> <a href="https://t.co/aycnysjNhV">pic.twitter.com/aycnysjNhV</a></p>— Canadian Cycling Mag (@CDNCyclingMag) <a href="https://twitter.com/CDNCyclingMag/status/720995584749002753">April 15, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



> But there are other sharp spinning things on a bike. I pressed both cyclists about spinning spokes and chainrings. Aren’t they a danger? “Spokes are sharp, but not as sharp and are protected by the rim and wheel,” Barry said. “Chainrings are at the centre of the bike so less likely to injure in crashes. Quite often, in high speed crashes where injuries are more frequent, the chain is on the big ring so less likely to cause severe wounds.”
> 
> “I don’t know how many times I’ve been bumped from behind by somebody’s front fork,” Hesjedal said. “In a slow, little pileup, you get a hit from the front fork. It hurts, but it doesn’t flay your Achilles. A rotor is a hot spinning blade protruding from the bicycle. I’d rather have the edge of the quick release and the front of a nice round carbon fork ramming into my Achilles and calf than a hot blade.”


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Hey,
If you have brakes that you can skid with, they gotta be good (this is where the sentence is supposed to end with the word "period"--you know, because of the obvious factual content of the sentence and the clear brilliance of these posters).

It's become fairly obvious that not actually using a product is the only way to provide clear and objective reviews about that product.


MoPho said:


> And only clowns still use the "I can skid with caliper brakes" argument :mad2:
> 
> 
> .


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The problem may be that MTB riders are generally not mentally deficient. Many have realized that sharp stuff needs to be filed/rounded if for no other reason than cleaning and maintaining the bike. 

When folks get on a bike with razor sharp rotating devices with no guard, Darwin's theory applies and typically keeps these people from breeding. Normally, the next generation of road bikers would be the offspring of those who were smart enough to figure this out.

Unfortunately, the manufacturers will be forced to protect these folks from their own stupidity by adding this step to the production process. Future generations will have to find new ways to exhibit their inherited obliviousness .


aclinjury said:


> hold on here.. a quick review...
> 
> - pro disc guys on RBR have always maintained that disc in mtb has never caused any serious injury in any "mass pile ups" in mtb (if you can call 5 guys scattered throughout the bushs as a mass pile up). Thus, disc should be safe for peloton riding, no problem. Got it.
> 
> ...


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Man, sounds like the other Junior high kids are being mean to you? You may want to wait until high school to begin posting on adult forums.

Just remember, we love you no matter what!


Keoki said:


> You really sound like a pu$$y that can't handle speeds above 20+ in the wet. I understand though... You are a giant pu$$y that is afraid of excessive speed.... You should be back on your hybrid with giant mirrors and bumper foams dressed like the Michelin Man. Don't worry, you'll win lots of races with this setup. Lol


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Keoki said:


> You really sound like a pu$$y that can't handle speeds above 20+ in the wet. I understand though... You are a giant pu$$y that is afraid of excessive speed.... You should be back on your hybrid with giant mirrors and bumper foams dressed like the Michelin Man. Don't worry, you'll win lots of races with this setup. Lol



Wow, that must have hurt when you pulled all that out your ass 


.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

SwiftSolo said:


> Man, sounds like the other Junior high kids are being mean to you? You may want to wait until high school to begin posting on adult forums.
> 
> Just remember, we love you no matter what!


Sounds like you're kiss his ass. Awww... Are you going to cry now? Remember, we love you to!! ... Not really.... Lol


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Commentary: Disc brakes and cycling's leadership vacuum - VeloNews.com




> Compare that to how professional cycling has handled disc brakes. Just months into a trial period — ostensibly run to collect the data necessary for a final decision — the UCI ended things after one isolated incident. And, as road.cc’s Mat Brett pointed out with great detail, there are legitimate reasons to believe that disc brakes had nothing to do with Fran Ventoso’s injury.
> 
> I’m not downplaying the severity of the gash to Ventoso’s leg. It was a terrifying wound. But while he blames a disc rotor, he says didn’t even know he was cut until a short time later, after he had already started riding again. So even he can’t say for sure a rotor was the culprit.





> The industry isn’t blameless here. I completely understand why manufacturers want to sell more product. They’re businesses, after all. And, like them, I rather enjoy making a living. But by pushing the UCI to test disc brakes before the pro peloton was ready, they antagonized racers and created a climate in which a single injury that we don’t even know was caused by a rotor was grounds for banning disc brakes.





> Nor are pro riders blameless. They are wedded to tradition and reflexively emotional about any changes to their equipment (which is completely understandable). One gets the sense that most of them were looking for any excuse to get discs banned.
> Read more at Commentary: Disc brakes and cycling's leadership vacuum - VeloNews.com




.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

MoPho said:


> Nah, she's not dead
> 
> And hey, when I get my disc brake bike, I will be able to hit 51 mph (and more) on a weekly basis on twisting downhills - it's a blast! Try and keep up! :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Strava? Or it didn't happen


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

spdntrxi said:


> Strava? Or it didn't happen



Whutz a strava?


.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

I hope this turn of events gets the manufacturers and dealers to stop trying to shove something down our throats without giving us a choice that should easily be available.

I love how Paris-Roubaix was won on a Scott Solace... which of course Scott is touting on their website... except it was won on rim brakes, which you can't get for the Solace anymore...

EDIT: OK I was wrong, race was won on a Scott Foil... got confused on Scott's website because the first thing they show is "Scott Solace - cobble eating machine" and then site scrolls to different picture of Hayman winning on Foil. Sorry for confusion.

But my comment about the choice remains the same, and funny that they show picture of IAM pro racing on rim brake Solace...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

jetdog9 said:


> rim brakes, which you can't get for the Solace anymore...


Nothing new here. Look at the cyclocross worlds this year, both men and women won on rim brake bikes that the manufacturer doesn't even make anymore. Think one might have been from 2012. Clearly not all racers like or want disc brakes.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Whutz a strava?
> 
> 
> .


 It's the net, and without Strava then it's just another fish story.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

BikeLayne said:


> It's the net, and without Strava then it's just another fish story.


So this be just another OldFish story then? 



OldChipper said:


> I'm almost 60, hate f'ing road discs, and hit 50+mph (and more) on a weekly basis on twisting downhills - it's a blast!



.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MoPho said:


> Commentary: Disc brakes and cycling's leadership vacuum - VeloNews.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This.

Ventoso's story, when it finally all came out, turns out to be a load of crap. He didn't even know he was cut for a few minutes, THEN decided he must have hit a disc rotor. He obviously has been looking for an excuse to blame discs. I also understand he was previously vocal against discs. Then he tried to convince another injured rider that his injury was due to a disc. That rider has refused to say it was due to a rotor because he doesn't know what he hit and isn't about to just make something up like Ventoso.

But, the article does make some very good points. It does appear true that the manufacturers are trying to force discs on the pros, for reasons not entirely clear. After all, they're doing just fine selling discs to the non-racers, anyway. Not sure getting pros on discs is really gonna change sales all that much. Unless their end goal is to get rim brakes outlawed so that everyone not already on discs MUST buy a new bike. Otherwise, why force the issue? Let the pros ride rim brakes until they start asking for discs. Because although I've argued that I don't believe discs really add much, or maybe even any, more risk, it's not like rim brakes increase risks for the pros. I think for average joe's, discs can reduce risks, particularly in inclement weather, especially if using carbon rims. But pros generally have pretty good handling skills. They do, after all, get a lot of practice on a bike in all sorts of conditions.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jetdog9 said:


> I hope this turn of events gets the manufacturers and dealers to stop trying to shove something down our throats without giving us a choice that should easily be available.
> 
> I love how Paris-Roubaix was won on a Scott Solace... which of course Scott is touting on their website... except it was won on rim brakes, which you can't get for the Solace anymore...
> 
> ...


Loved watching my Foil family win PR!!!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

MoPho said:


> So this be just another OldFish story then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I believe he can go 50mph. Its a reasonable comment.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

BikeLayne said:


> No, I believe he can go 50mph. Its a reasonable comment.


If you say so….


.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I think it's time to say adios! to disc in the pro peloton. Nothing wrong with that eh.
Pros know what they're talking about. Armchairs should shut up.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

MoPho said:


> If you say so….
> 
> 
> .



I am not sure what you are saying but if you do not believe that the guy can achieve 50mph downhill then that would be a good reason for a person to include Strava data when making a claim that they can do something.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I think it's time to say adios! to disc in the pro peloton. Nothing wrong with that eh.
> Pros know what they're talking about. Armchairs should shut up.


Because pros are known to be a trustworthy bunch, eh…

And you're an armchair too 

.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

BikeLayne said:


> I am not sure what you are saying but if you do not believe that the guy can achieve 50mph downhill then that would be a good reason for a person to include Strava data when making a claim that they can do something.



Apparently, you haven't been following along…. 


.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Apparently, you haven't been following along….
> 
> 
> .


I was just supporting the guy that said that without Strava Data it did not happen. I support that as it's the net. 

However I believe I have followed most of the posts. Mostly ranting. Myself I do not care what the Pro's ride on. I am not going to watch them race or anything. As far as consumers go the disc brake is just an option choice to make. Just buy the bike you want and go ride around on it. Simple as that.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

No one is trying to 'outlaw' anything.

What manufactuers want is to be able to manufacture ONE bike frame (per model) that can accomodate racers and non-racers alike. If they have to produce rim brake frames for racers and wannabes, and disc brakes for us old fat guys who might prefer them, it's going to make for some logistical challenges (and increased costs, which will be passed on to the consumer)



Jwiffle said:


> ...After all, they're doing just fine selling discs to the non-racers, anyway. Not sure getting pros on discs is really gonna change sales all that much. Unless their end goal is to get rim brakes outlawed so that everyone not already on discs MUST buy a new bike. Otherwise, why force the issue? Let the pros ride rim brakes until they start asking for discs.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> No one is trying to 'outlaw' anything.
> 
> What manufactuers want is to be able to manufacture ONE bike frame (per model) that can accomodate racers and non-racers alike. If they have to produce rim brake frames for racers and wannabes, and disc brakes for us old fat guys who might prefer them, it's going to make for some logistical challenges (and increased costs, which will be passed on to the consumer)


That does make sense.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

The amount of moderation this thread has needed is disturbing. While its great to have such a robust debate, a few of you can't seem to stop insulting the other posters. One posting vacation has been issued this morning for the most flagrant violator, and I would prefer not to add more posters that one- so please play nice with others.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

BikeLayne said:


> As far as consumers go the disc brake is just an option choice to make. Just buy the bike you want and go ride around on it. Simple as that.


I think that's the problem, manufacturers moving to nearly 100% disc brake bikes, which removes the option or choice for people to buy the bike that they "want" (one with rim brakes in this case)


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

the problem with caliper brakes is that they are so simple and refined that there is no longer a way to make profits from them so the manufacturers have no choice but to push these complicated disc brakes on the consumer's (us).

it's a brilliant scheme because it also involves the necessity to replace nearly every other component on the machine at the $ame time.

we must wake up and smell the pads glazing and stop this anarchy before it's too late.

it's up to us to unite against this corporate greed.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

TmB123 said:


> I think that's the problem, manufacturers moving to nearly 100% disc brake bikes, which removes the option or choice for people to buy the bike that they "want" (one with rim brakes in this case)


 

When manufacturers dropped steel bikes the sky did not fall. What happened is Custom shops started getting busy. It turned out to be a good thing for small business and the consumer is riding better bikes then ever before. If you think that an awesome steel bike is not for you then walk into Calfee in beautiful La Selva Beach and order a custom made Carbon bike set up for calipers. I went on a tour of the place recently and it's pretty awesome. They just let you walk around the work area all you want. It's not like any place I have been to. 

Just to clarify I do not have a beef with disc brakes or anything else that is manufactured for cyclists. Some things I like and some things I do not. However because of this thread I kind of want to stop into a bike shop someplace and look at the disc brakes to see if they are sharp and dangerous or if it's all a bunch of bull. Our LBS sells mostly family bikes so I have to go out of town to see stuff like that. I do not know anyone with a disc bike yet.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

factory feel said:


> the problem with caliper brakes is that they are so simple and refined that there is no longer a way to make profits from them so the manufacturers have no choice but to push these complicated disc brakes on the consumer's (us).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well the best way to fight bicycle company greed is to just do not buy a bike from them. Have a custom shop make you a bike and support small business. The world has endless possibilities.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

I am not anti-disc, but definitely am anti-not-having-choice-to-go-with-rim-brakes-on-wide-variety-of bikes...

For me disc brakes would be a maintenance hassle, require a lot of equipment replacement, and I have no concerns about stopping in any conditions with my current brakes.

That said, the one thing I haven't factored into the "pros" section for disc is that I imagine it's cheaper to replace a disc rotor than it is a rim or wheelset for those of us who ride often enough to have to deal with that situation more frequently. Does anybody have and anecdotal evidence or actual data on this?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jetdog9 said:


> That said, the one thing I haven't factored into the "pros" section for disc is that I imagine it's cheaper to replace a disc rotor than it is a rim or wheelset for those of us who ride often enough to have to deal with that situation more frequently. Does anybody have and anecdotal evidence or actual data on this?


How often are rims being changed because the brake tracks are worn through? In miles or years. I don't know the cost of a brake rotor, but how many would\could need replacing before a rim needs replacing? Is cost really a factor, or is this just a reason to verify the need to use disc brakes?

All I know is the last brakes that I rode that gave me trouble in the modulation department were the coaster brakes that I had as a kid. And to be honest, they were so much fun to skid that I don't even know if I could have come to a nice easy controlled modulated stop. :thumbsup:


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I wanted to see a disc setup for myself since I do not know anyone with a disc bike. Our bike shop is a family store and does not have expensive road bikes but I stopped in as they do sell mountain bikes. So I slid my finger over a disc edge and it was sharp enough to slice up a salad for dinner or carve a Turkey. I even simulated my right leg in the down stroke and then moved it over to the razor disc and it hits right below the knee. Anyway I totally believe the Pro was sliced and diced and applaud the UCI for suspending the trial.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

Migen21 said:


> No one is trying to 'outlaw' anything.
> 
> What manufactuers want is to be able to manufacture ONE bike frame (per model) that can accomodate racers and non-racers alike. If they have to produce rim brake frames for racers and wannabes, and disc brakes for us old fat guys who might prefer them, it's going to make for some logistical challenges (and increased costs, which will be passed on to the consumer)


This is likely true, so it only makes sense why they want to force this onto the pros. One frame per model, and if the pros use it, then as you said...all the fat guys and poseurs will happily embrace disc brakes. The rub is that now if the poseurs want to upgrade to the latest trendy thing, guess what, you gotta buy a whole new bike (or at least a frame and other required components). 

So, it's pretty clear this is, and always has been, a marketing ploy to upsell "dentists and poseurs" the latest cool toy. And THAT'S what I resent. IMO, disc brakes are almost completely unnecessary, except in certain circumstances and for certain uses. But if this is now going to be the "only" thing available in the future on most new road bikes, that's BS! A side effect of this will also be diminishing support and availability of rim brake parts. Of course rim brakes will be available (at least for the rest of my lifetime), but it certainly would have an effect on availability and choice.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

> So, it's pretty clear this is, and always has been, a marketing ploy to upsell "dentists and poseurs" the latest cool toy.


 While I was at the bike shop I asked the owner about disc brakes and he said that he is worried about the increase in cost. He said young people with all their athletic abilities are not buying road bikes and they are not going to take the love of cycling forward. He said they do not have the money and not many parents are willing to shell out that kind of money for a bike and stuff. 

I have been thinking about that for an hour now and it just came to me when I was in Santa Cruz last Wednesday and I saw bicycle riders everywhere that none of them were very young. Maybe it is just a sport for old folks because of the cost. 

You know suddenly I like cycling less then before. I am just an old fool riding my bike instead of playing golf with rich old drunks.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

BikeLayne said:


> While I was at the bike shop I asked the owner about disc brakes and he said that he is worried about the increase in cost. He said young people with all their athletic abilities are not buying road bikes and they are not going to take the love of cycling forward. He said they do not have the money and not many parents are willing to shell out that kind of money for a bike and stuff.
> 
> I have been thinking about that for an hour now and it just came to me when I was in Santa Cruz last Wednesday and I saw bicycle riders everywhere that none of them were very young. Maybe it is just a sport for old folks because of the cost.
> 
> You know suddenly I like cycling less then before. I am just an old fool riding my bike instead of playing golf with rich old drunks.


meandering off-topic: While there have always been expensive bikes, it does seem to me that the average cost of a typical road bikes has gone way up, well beyond inflation. Almost every part of the bike has a high-zoot option available. Add to that the marketing trying to convince you you need all the best stuff and a lot of potential new riders may be scared off


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

DaveG said:


> meandering off-topic: While there have always been expensive bikes, it does seem to me that the average cost of a typical road bikes has gone way up, well beyond inflation. Almost every part of the bike has a high-zoot option available. Add to that the marketing trying to convince you you need all the best stuff and a lot of potential new riders may be scared off



You have a point and you can get an aluminum bike that will work fine for a reasonable cost. You know in Santa Cruz there are kids out surfing on boards that I am sure are not cheap and they do not last forever either. So probably a kid could get a pretty good aluminum bike for a starter and over time improve the gear as they are able. Maybe I do not see them on the road because they like mountain bikes which in many ways would be better. Just thinking about it because of what the bike shop owner was saying. He is probably just coming from his own bike shop sales. Kids around here do not ride bikes of any kind really. Little kids ride BMX and skateboard and then it ends with that. Maybe it's because they get so heavy these days. Lots of kids carrying an extra 100 lbs these days.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

factory feel said:


> the problem with caliper brakes is that they are so simple and refined that there is no longer a way to make profits from them so the manufacturers have no choice but to push these complicated disc brakes on the consumer's (us).
> 
> it's a brilliant scheme because it also involves the necessity to replace nearly every other component on the machine at the $ame time.
> 
> ...


you got it amigo! Manufacturers always need to keep the product pipeline filled. It's fuking brilliant that they would hype up disc, get a bunch of armchairs to jump on the bandwagon, then boommm... buy a new frame, new wheels, new shifters... to go along with the new disc. F*ing brilliant!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Because pros are known to be a trustworthy bunch, eh…
> 
> And you're an armchair too
> 
> .


pros do this sh*t for a living, their livelihood depends on their ability to brake in the mountains. Who should I trust? You? or them? Ain't you buddy.

And Valentino, 50 mph is nothing. 51 mph down Crystal Lake, and down Baldy all day long with a -12% grade pal. If that scare you, then you have no business descending that fast eh, forget about disc eh


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> you got it amigo! Manufacturers always need to keep the product pipeline filled. It's fuking brilliant that they would hype up disc, get a bunch of armchairs to jump on the bandwagon, then boommm... buy a new frame, new wheels, new shifters... to go along with the new disc. F*ing brilliant!


That's pretty much the standard in consumer product industry. As Jordan Belfort (Leo DiCaprio) said in _The Wolf of Wall Street_, "_creating urgency, get them to want to buy_". That's business.

You should've seen what the consumer audio electronics sellers do. There are 6' speaker cables costing over $10K, yes, ten thousand dollars for 12 ga. copper wire coated with some fancy looking sleeves, the same 12 ga. wire you can get from Home Depot for 25 cents per foot. The sellers write poem like description promoting the claimed benefits of their outrageously expensive cables which is all snake oil.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> you got it amigo! Manufacturers always need to keep the product pipeline filled. It's fuking brilliant that they would hype up disc, get a bunch of armchairs to jump on the bandwagon, then boommm... buy a new frame, new wheels, new shifters... to go along with the new disc. F*ing brilliant!


I am sure you are on an entry level steel bike and don't buy anything the manufacturers are peddling, right? 
And while you're at it, don't ever buy a new car, computer, phone, or any other product, because they all are in it to make money, it's all one big evil conspiracy!! 





aclinjury said:


> pros do this sh*t for a living, their livelihood depends on their ability to brake in the mountains. Who should I trust? You? or them? Ain't you buddy.


I don't care who you believe fellow "armchair", but Pro racers are well known for lying, cheating and they too have an agenda. As noted by the article I posted, they are "wedded to tradition and reflexively emotional about any changes to their equipment. One gets the sense that most of them were looking for any excuse to get discs banned."
Hmm…. and now it's coming out that the rider at the forefront of this story probably lied about his and the other guys injury. OK! 





> And Valentino, 50 mph is nothing. 51 mph down Crystal Lake, and down Baldy all day long with a -12% grade pal. If that scare you, then you have no business descending that fast eh, forget about disc eh


Meh, anyone can bomb down a steep hill. The real skill and fun comes from being good at braking and cornering, something that disc brakes can make you faster at if you are able/willing and safer if you aren't



.


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

USAC's stance on disc brakes in amateur races - VeloNews.com

"...Hodge says USAC is exploring options to address safety concerns as well as equipment concerns. “There are potential safety isues, and there are people who have gone out and purchased equipment. We’re going to look at the safety ramifications as well as whether we have to tell people that the $5,000 bike they just bought is still legal or not. This won’t happen in a day.”

Hodge says a decision may be made as early as late April, and if that happened, national championships in May would likely be the first event to be affected. Until then, if you want to race discs, check your race registrations carefully before plunking down cash on a UCI-regulated race..."


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> I am sure you are on an entry level steel bike and don't buy anything the manufacturers are peddling, right?
> And while you're at it, don't ever buy a new car, computer, phone, or any other product, because they all are in it to make money, it's all one big evil conspiracy!!
> 
> 
> ...


pros are known to resist change tradition. Fine i'll give you that. But they have been riding pretty much the same form of bicycle, with the same form of brakes, for 100 years. So if it ain't broke...

Manufacturers, on the other extreme, is also know to push every and any little chance of change they get a sniff at.. can you say cha ching$$$!

And I take it you've never gone down Mt Baldy? It's full of hairpins, surface is rough, especially at the hairpins where the tarmac rolls up into waves due to cars braking. Brake power is not the limit factor affecting tire adhesion here. I'll will admit braking in the wet on carbon wheel is where disc truly shines. How many armchairs descend down mountains on wet days on carbon wheels? Anyway, pros and UCI have already spoken for now.

but consumers can still get their disc bikes anyway, nothing stopping you from buying one, aight. So i'm not sure why you're so adamant about your position regarding pros and their desire not to use disc? You sound like that guys who knows what's best for the pros more than the pros. No bueno.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> pros are known to resist change tradition. Fine i'll give you that. But they have been riding pretty much the same form of bicycle, with the same form of brakes, for 100 years. So if it ain't broke...


As I've already pointed out many times, this argument doesn't hold water. Steel frames, toe clips, downtube shifters, 5,6,7,8,9,10-speeds, etc were all not broke either….
No one needed an aero frame until someone came up with one…. 






> Manufacturers, on the other extreme, is also know to push every and any little chance of change they get a sniff at.. can you say cha ching$$$!



Oh no! Businesses want to make money, eek!. In other news, water is wet. 

Why be so cynical about it? Making new stuff for people to buy is how the consumer product industry works and it makes many people happy. And I am sure the engineers who actually dream up this stuff are not sitting at their desks thinking, "Hmm, how can we screw people over?". No, they are thinking, "hmm, how can I make this better".




> And I take it you've never gone down Mt Baldy? It's full of hairpins, surface is rough, especially at the hairpins where the tarmac rolls up into waves due to cars braking.


Yes, I've been on Mt Baldy. The point was that measurebating over your top speed on a hill is silly and doesn't prove anything.




> Brake power is not the limit factor affecting tire adhesion here.


How many times has this argument been debunked now?




> but consumers can still get their disc bikes anyway, nothing stopping you from buying one, aight. So i'm not sure why you're so adamant about your position regarding pros and their desire not to use disc? You sound like that guys who knows what's best for the pros more than the pros. No bueno.


First off, don't fool yourself, the discussion in this thread isn't really about what the pros want, the anti-disc crowd here has been using this incident to fuel their arguments against disc brakes on all road bikes. Have you actually read the comments or do you only hear what you want to hear?
If you really cared about the riders safety, among many other dangers, you would be denouncing the cobblestones too, they caused more crashes and injuries than disc brakes (and there may have not been any disc brake injuries at all) at P-R

Secondly, I don't care what the pros use, but the UCI dictates that racers use what's available to the public, so this does have potential to limit what consumers get. Until this whole push to get disc into racing happened, you could not get sport/racing bikes with disc brakes, and even now the selection is limited. Aight! 



Edit to add: You're always belittling folks for buying what the pros want, well if that is such a bad thing and they are suckers "jumping on the bandwagon", why should we care what the pros don't want?





.


----------



## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> pros are known to resist change tradition. Fine i'll give you that. But they have been riding pretty much the same form of bicycle, with the same form of brakes, for 100 years. So if it ain't broke...
> 
> Manufacturers, on the other extreme, is also know to push every and any little chance of change they get a sniff at.. can you say cha ching$$$!
> 
> ...


Regarding, "you sound like that guys who knows what's best for the pros more than the pros. No bueno," you can read all about Mopho's Open Letter to the Pros over on the Weight Weenie Forum about this topic. 

Movistar rider injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix - Weight Weenies

Come on Mopho we're all still waiting for your Letter to the Pros setting them...and all of the rest of us...straight. You're the man Mopho...you're the man!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

krtassoc said:


> Regarding, "you sound like that guys who knows what's best for the pros more than the pros. No bueno," you can read all about Mopho's Open Letter to the Pros over on the Weight Weenie Forum about this topic.
> 
> Movistar rider injured by disc brake in Paris-Roubaix - Weight Weenies
> 
> Come on Mopho we're all still waiting for your Letter to the Pros setting them...and all of the rest of us...straight. You're the man Mopho...you're the man!



Awe, you're still butthurt because I picked apart your post… Sowry 

.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

This is a great summary. 

I think we both need to realize that we are dealing with Luddite extremists here. Not one of the congregation has even acknowledged the principle that rounding the edges of sharp objects may be the way to eliminate cuts by those objects. Additionally, they haven't stated where in the Book of Luddite it is forbidden to do so (filing edges is really important to those unaccustomed to working/riding with discs) .



MoPho said:


> As I've already pointed out many times, this argument doesn't hold water. Steel frames, toe clips, downtube shifters, 5,6,7,8,9,10-speeds, etc were all not broke either….
> No one needed an aero frame until someone came up with one….
> 
> 
> ...


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Rounding a rotors edge might be enough to stop it from being sharp for casual contact, but I think a 1.8mm rotor whether it be rounded or untouched if it hits you with enough force (like a bike flying through the air in a sprint finish pile up), it will still inflict a significant wound, and if it is on a shin or something similarly hard, would still peel the skin off without too much trouble.

- I'm not against discs btw, been riding them on my gravel bike for the last few weeks and think they are great, haven't noticed any real improvement over my Dura Ace caliper / Zipp wheels on my road bike though, but I bought the gravel bike as a winter/ fun bike which is where I expect the discs to come into their own.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> This is a great summary.
> 
> I think we both need to realize that we are dealing with Luddite extremists here. Not one of the congregation has even acknowledged the principle that rounding the edges of sharp objects may be the way to eliminate cuts by those objects. Additionally, they haven't stated where in the Book of Luddite it is forbidden to do so (filing edges is really important to those unaccustomed to working/riding with discs) .


Actually, there are extremists on both sides of this argument, but to label a person because they are happy with what they have is elitism, plain and simple. Many rim brake adherents here have shown a concern that the choice is going to be eventually lost, and that is a real possibility. 

The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure, but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on bicycles. We're talking marginal gains, and I'm not sponsored by Team Sky.

Disc brakes on a bicycle just strike me as an implement that allows a cyclist not to develop a skill set, sorta like ABS brakes, self parking cars, self braking cars, back-up cameras and the list goes on. All of those things are considered improvements, and perhaps they are, but at the cost of skills and abilities that aren't being developed by the driving public and I think that is a big loss.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

See, often times, when folks begin to tout the size of their unit, neither their brain nor there unit are all that impressive. 

"51 mph down Crystal Lake, and down Baldy *all day long* with a -12% grade pal". I guessing you forgot to put the decimal point in front of 51 mph (should have been .51mph)? Even with unpredictable rim brakes, that's pretty slow! I'll bet he could have cut that to half a day if he'd wedged his tennis shoe in the seat stays. 



aclinjury said:


> pros do this sh*t for a living, their livelihood depends on their ability to brake in the mountains. Who should I trust? You? or them? Ain't you buddy.
> 
> And Valentino, 50 mph is nothing. 51 mph down Crystal Lake, and down Baldy all day long with a -12% grade pal. If that scare you, then you have no business descending that fast eh, forget about disc eh


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

velodog said:


> Actually, there are extremists on both sides of this argument, but to label a person because they are happy with what they have is elitism, plain and simple.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure, but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on bicycles. We're talking marginal gains, and I'm not sponsored by Team Sky.
> 
> Disc brakes on a bicycle just strike me as an implement that allows a cyclist not to develop a skill set, sorta like ABS brakes,....... All of those things are considered improvements, and perhaps they are, but at the cost of skills and abilities that aren't being developed by the driving public and I think that is a big loss.


I believe that nearly all of the criticism here as been about disc brakes and disc brake users by folks who have never tried hydro discs on mountain descents.

MTB's are bikes. Are pro MTB racers stupid? They have no rule that requires them to use disc brakes, and yet they nearly all do.

There is no skill set that will allow a driver to repeatedly stop an automobile on wet pavement as short with standard brakes as with ABS.

The mountain stages of the Giro are typical mountain descents in the spring. Stages are often held on sunny days where snow melt randomly crosses an otherwise dry road. I am unaware of any condition that makes rim brakes less predictable. The snow melt is often contaminated with grit from winter road sanding. In our area we used to frequently comment that it seemed like the bikes accelerated when we first pulled on the brakes coming into a hairpin. Deceleration distances are often 400% of what they'd be if you had dry rims. Learning to deal with this unpredictability is a skill set that requires survivors to learn to approach every hairpin on such descents with the mindset that this behavior may apply in the upcoming hairpin. 

That and rainy days with sanding grit is why disc brake sales are so brisk in the Northwest.


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

Disc brakes: Trials continued 'despite numerous red flags'

"...The CPA went further and blamed pressure from bike brands on riders to publicly be in favour of the tests..."

Disc brakes: Trials continued 'despite numerous red flags' | Bicycle Business | BikeBiz


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

MoPho said:


> As I've already pointed out many times, this argument doesn't hold water. Steel frames, toe clips, downtube shifters, 5,6,7,8,9,10-speeds, etc were all not broke either….
> No one needed an aero frame until someone came up with one….


It has been pointed out multiple times also that each and every one of the above make for terrible analogies. For each and every one of the above, (a) there were clear advantages of the new technology, and (b) the new technology could be used as drop-in replacements just fine, without disrupting the entire system. 

You may notice that both of these points are patently untrue for disc brakes: (a) The benefit of disks over rim brakes is very much subject to dispute, with the only minor benefit of improved modulation being almost cosmetic, except in fringe cases that do not apply to many riders or rides. (b) Switching to disk brakes pretty much requires replacing the entire bike, with no backwards compatibility of any sort. Well, sure, you can keep your crankset, chain and cassette. Yep, handlebars and saddle, too. Woohoo...

We may finally note that, given point (b) above, the concern about choice between discs and rims being eliminated is a serious one.



MoPho said:


> Oh no! Businesses want to make money, eek!


Blah blah. My recommendation is to quit bashing that silly straw man. Nobody here is anti-business. Most people in this forum spend a boatload of money on stuff that has obscene profit margins without blinking an eye. Just can this ****.



MoPho said:


> Secondly, I don't care what the pros use, but the UCI dictates that racers use what's available to the public, so this does have potential to limit what consumers get.


It clearly doesn't, as has been pointed out before.



velodog said:


> Many rim brake adherents here have shown a concern that the choice is going to be eventually lost, and that is a real possibility.


Yep, that's the point, see above. I don't give a flying fart about what brakes other people use, but I don't want to be forced to buy stuff I don't want.



velodog said:


> The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure, but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on bicycles. We're talking marginal gains, and I'm not sponsored by Team Sky.


Exactly. No comparison, at all, with things like integrated shift/brake levers, clipless pedals, carbon frames, etc., etc.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> MTB's are bikes. Are pro MTB racers stupid? They have no rule that requires them to use disc brakes, and yet they nearly all do.
> 
> There is no skill set that will allow a driver to repeatedly stop an automobile on wet pavement as short with standard brakes as with ABS.


Trials Motorcycles and MotoGT bikes are both motorcycles too, ain't much comparable about the two types. More apples and oranges.

True about the ABS, but having driven without them is an advantage, in my opinion. But self parking or self stopping cars, oh good, lets make poor drivers worse drivers.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Well I think as long as the Pro's do not accept disc brakes then the road cyclist will probably be able to buy caliper brakes on the high end bikes. Basically the Pro's are supposed to ride on bikes that we can purchase. So it would seem a bike such as the Specialized Tarmac and other similar bikes would be offered with caliper brakes. 

However if the Pro's eventually ride 100% disc brakes for whatever reason then probably all bets are off on what will be available down the road. Calipers could go away or maybe not. I guess time will tell. You know things do not really go away that often. Just yesterday I was riding down the highway and a string of Model T cars chugged on past me. I tried to jump up to them and draft but I could not do it. Many years have gone buy since the Model T and yet there they are chugging down the road looking like they came off the assembly line yesterday.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> So i'm not sure why you're so adamant about your position regarding pros and their desire not to use disc?


"...their desire not to use disc". Got a link for that?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Pirx said:


> It has been pointed out multiple times also that each and every one of the above make for terrible analogies. For each and every one of the above, (a) there were clear advantages of the new technology, and (b) the new technology could be used as drop-in replacements just fine, without disrupting the entire system.
> 
> You may notice that both of these points are patently untrue for disc brakes: (a) The benefit of disks over rim brakes is very much subject to dispute, with the only minor benefit of improved modulation being almost cosmetic, except in fringe cases that do not apply to many riders or rides. (b) Switching to disk brakes pretty much requires replacing the entire bike, with no backwards compatibility of any sort. Well, sure, you can keep your crankset, chain and cassette. Yep, handlebars and saddle, too. Woohoo...
> 
> We may finally note that, given point (b) above, the concern about choice between discs and rims being eliminated is a serious one.


The analogy is just fine, his comment was that if it "ain't broke don't fix it" well all those other things weren't broke either until someone came out with something better. No one was begging for 11-speeds, aero bikes or electronic shifting (and all three of those things have questionable benefit too)

There are clear advantages to disc, the fact that you and others refuse to accept it is your problem. 

And yes, you are right, there is no backwards compatibility, but the same can be said of an Aero frame, or a carbon frame, etc. You are pretty much disrupting the entire system if you want that stuff too. 
Now here's the thing, no one is saying you have to buy disc brakes or that you "need" them.






> Blah blah. My recommendation is to quit bashing that silly straw man. Nobody here is anti-business. Most people in this forum spend a boatload of money on stuff that has obscene profit margins without blinking an eye. Just can this ****.


Uh, no! Points to their hypocrisy
Where are the outcries of corporate greed regarding those other obscenely profitable things that people in this forum spend boatloads of money on without blinking an eye? Guess it's not "greed" when it's something they want 




> It clearly doesn't, as has been pointed out before.


It may be too late now that the ball is rolling, but we don't know. The fact is that disc being illegal in pro racing was holding back the addition of disc to race/sport type bikes. Even now, there are not very many options. 






> Yep, that's the point, see above. I don't give a flying fart about what brakes other people use, but I don't want to be forced to buy stuff I don't want.


Then don't buy it. It's really that simple! 
I rode my steel DeRosa for 18 years, no one forced me to upgrade to a CF bike. The idea that you are being forced to buy stuff you don't want is totally absurd. 


.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

BikeLayne said:


> Well I think as long as the Pro's do not accept disc brakes then the road cyclist will probably be able to buy caliper brakes on the high end bikes. Basically the Pro's are supposed to ride on bikes that we can purchase. So it would seem a bike such as the Specialized Tarmac and other similar bikes would be offered with caliper brakes.


This is already not the case for some manufacturers and I see more headed that way, particularly with the endurance frame section of the industry. Scott is one example.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

jetdog9 said:


> This is already not the case for some manufacturers and I see more headed that way, particularly with the endurance frame section of the industry. Scott is one example.



Well I was trying to make a different point but it does not matter. Thank you for responding to my comment however.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The post I was responding to included all bikes in the summation that disc brakes do not belong on "bicycles". I was pointing out that MTB's are "bicycles". Not really that complicated since it was you that said "but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on *bicycles*" and "Disc brakes on a *bicycle* just strike me as an implement that allows a cyclist not to develop a skill set", . So, what are mountain bikes?


velodog said:


> Trials Motorcycles and MotoGT bikes are both motorcycles too, ain't much comparable about the two types. More apples and oranges.
> 
> True about the ABS, but having driven without them is an advantage, in my opinion. But self parking or self stopping cars, oh good, lets make poor drivers worse drivers.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> The post I was responding to included all bikes in the summation that disc brakes do not belong on "bicycles". I was pointing out that MTB's are "bicycles". Not really that complicated since it was you that said "but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on *bicycles*" and "Disc brakes on a *bicycle* just strike me as an implement that allows a cyclist not to develop a skill set", . So, what are mountain bikes?[/QUOTE
> 
> Sorry to confuse you, but this is *R*oad *B*ike *R*evue and the conversation has been about road bikes, so I just thought that you would understand that road bikes were implied.
> 
> I apologize for expecting you to understand that. So to clarify, comparing MTBs to road bikes is still apples to oranges.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

So how does that fit with "The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure", Do mountain bikes fit into the car or motorcycle category and are they capable of higher speeds than road bikes? 

I'm hoping to gain the level of wisdom that you have through your obviously vast hydro disc experience on twisting mountain descents. I'm pretty sure that mountain bikers and road hydro disc users who share these experiences want to know why they had remained so oblivious prior to your enlightenment?

.


velodog said:


> SwiftSolo said:
> 
> 
> > The post I was responding to included all bikes in the summation that disc brakes do not belong on "bicycles". I was pointing out that MTB's are "bicycles". Not really that complicated since it was you that said "but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on *bicycles*" and "Disc brakes on a *bicycle* just strike me as an implement that allows a cyclist not to develop a skill set", . So, what are mountain bikes?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

So how does that fit with "The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure", Do mountain bikes fit into the car or motorcycle category and are they capable of higher speeds than road bikes?

I'm hoping to gain the level of wisdom that you have through your obviously vast hydro disc experience on twisting mountain descents. I'm pretty sure that mountain bikers and road hydro disc users who share these experiences want to know why they had remained so oblivious prior to your enlightenment?


velodog said:


> SwiftSolo said:
> 
> 
> > The post I was responding to included all bikes in the summation that disc brakes do not belong on "bicycles". I was pointing out that MTB's are "bicycles". Not really that complicated since it was you that said "but it's not really something that is offering that much of an improvement over what we already have on *bicycles*" and "Disc brakes on a *bicycle* just strike me as an implement that allows a cyclist not to develop a skill set", . So, what are mountain bikes?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> So how does that fit with "The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure", Do mountain bikes fit into the car or motorcycle category and are they capable of higher speeds than road bikes?
> 
> I'm hoping to gain the level of wisdom that you have through your obviously vast hydro disc experience on twisting mountain descents. I'm pretty sure that mountain bikers and road hydro disc users who share these experiences want to know why they had remained so oblivious prior to your enlightenment?
> 
> .I bet you're fun to drink with.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

So now I read that none of the disc brake equipped riders on either team riding discs had an incident or crash on the sector Ventoso did. Further, his cut was apparently horizontal. He says he ran into the back of a bike, without even going down, and for cut by a disc. Cut would have been vertical. And he only decided he hit a rotor several minutes later after he looked down and saw blood.

Whether or not discs could pose a danger to the pro peloton, it's looking, it's looking more and more like a disc DID NOT injure Ventoso.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Well that's hardly surprising given where the injury is and his version of events - where did you read about this?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Not sure what point you're making but if you're throwing the question back at me:
I am going on my third season on road hydro discs. I ride the majority of the time in the Cascades of Washington and the mountains around Santa Ynez in California (nearly all on climbs and descents in excess of 2500 vertical). I also spend 15 days in the early summer in the Dolomites and alps of Italy (this will be my third year on discs for this trip). I done passo's pordoi, sella, gardena, campolongo, valparola, falzarego, and Erbe multiple times as well as stelvio and gavia-- on disc brakes. My riding partners switched to hydro discs after the first trip when the clear superiority became obvious on these steep, twisting, mountain descents (watch stage 14 of the Giro this year to get a taste of the descents on these passes.) 

This experience, while limited, has caused me to believe that 98% of the RBR opposition to discs is from folks who have no experience on road hydro discs. It begs the question--how do these folks ever make rational decisions about anything and how do they keep from becoming Darwin award winners?



velodog said:


> SwiftSolo said:
> 
> 
> > So how does that fit with "The truth of the matter is that at the speeds which bicycles are capable of is handled splendidly by caliper brakes, including modulation. Disc brakes on cars and motorcycles, sure", Do mountain bikes fit into the car or motorcycle category and are they capable of higher speeds than road bikes?
> ...


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

TmB123 said:


> Well that's hardly surprising given where the injury is and his version of events - where did you read about this?


Cycling Weekly.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

*Disc Brake Road Bikes Banned at French Sportive Rides*

Disc brakes banned from French sportives including L'Etape du Tour | road.cc



> Following the decision of the UCI of 14 April 2016, the Federal Bureau decided at its meeting on 14 April 2016 to forbid the use of disc brakes on all road events organised under the umbrella of the FFC.



ahahahahaha.


...



aaaahahaahahahahaha.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Dats the Brakes.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Cheese-eating surrender-monkeys


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

After all, people ride those sportives like they are "pretend" races.

Maybe the FFC works under UCI rules.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

They're either with the bike industry or against the bike industry. Time to raise tariffs on Roquefort again.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Let's ban disc brakes on French cars imported into the U.S.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

For the pros, there are a lot of sponsors other than component and bike manufactures. They will not stand for any thing that creates a competitive disadvantage. Come to think of it, bike and component manufactures probably don't want their product associated with the reputation that they create a disadvantage. Results will be the determining factor. 

As for my personal experience, I have been riding and collecting bikes since 1978. I have never had disc brakes, nor felt a need for them. However Lynskey had a very good sale on disc brakes bike, so I ordered on. As far as I am concerned, brakes are brakes. If they stop you, good. If not, bad

Of course I am a formerly fat old guy. Maybe a poseur, and a clown. Definitely a Fred , so what do I know


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

wgscott said:


> Wine-drinking surrender-monkeys


FIFY. :smile5:


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I went to the city council meeting last night and made a speech about the horrors of disc brakes on road bikes. They sucked it up and now you get life in prison without Parole if you are caught in the act of felonious braking in the city. However they made an exception if your wearing camouflage because the Police would not see them anyway.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

bvber said:


> FIFY. :smile5:


For the record: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eating_surrender_monkeys


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

wgscott said:


> For the record: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eating_surrender_monkeys


Oh well...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bvber said:


> That's pretty much the standard in consumer product industry. As Jordan Belfort (Leo DiCaprio) said in _The Wolf of Wall Street_, "_creating urgency, get them to want to buy_". That's business.
> 
> You should've seen what the consumer audio electronics sellers do. There are 6' speaker cables costing over $10K, yes, ten thousand dollars for 12 ga. copper wire coated with some fancy looking sleeves, the same 12 ga. wire you can get from Home Depot for 25 cents per foot. The sellers write poem like description promoting the claimed benefits of their outrageously expensive cables which is all snake oil.


Monster cables! Cha ching$$$


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Pirx said:


> ...but I don't want to be forced to buy stuff I don't want.





MoPho said:


> Then don't buy it. It's really that simple!...The idea that you are being forced to buy stuff you don't want is totally absurd.


I'm with ya MoPho, of all the sentiments, the notion of being "forced" to buy something is mind boggling.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> See, often times, when folks begin to tout the size of their unit, neither their brain nor there unit are all that impressive.
> 
> "51 mph down Crystal Lake, and down Baldy *all day long* with a -12% grade pal". I guessing you forgot to put the decimal point in front of 51 mph (should have been .51mph)? Even with unpredictable rim brakes, that's pretty slow! I'll bet he could have cut that to half a day if he'd wedged his tennis shoe in the seat stays.


eh going down Mt Baldy there are a few sections at -15%, and a few at -18%. Trying to keep from going over 50mph is the issue, not going over it. Do you even know how fast the speed will pick up going down a -18% while sitting straight up making your body into a parachute? you'll hit 50mph on that alone. Tucking will push to 55 mph. Sh8t I hit 48 mph going down a long -10% stretch tucked in alone, and I'm a lightweight.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Do you really want to get caught up in semantics? Fine, nobody is being "forced" to buy anything, but particularly in the US market we are being "nudged" towards disc brakes when it doesn't fit the needs or desires of many consumers.

Example: My father-in-law is about to start getting into road riding, and an endurance frame will likely suit him best. But at our price point everything offered in that category is disc only from Cannondale or Specialized as examples. For part swapping and "son-in-law doing a lot of the mechanic work" reasons, we really want him on rim brakes. So we basically have to keep our fingers crossed that we can find a 2014 or 2015 closeout somewhere. 

BTW, funny that if disc brakes are so great, it's at the highest end where rim brakes are still available on a lot of these product lines (or super-lowest, but not the mid range).


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> As I've already pointed out many times, this argument doesn't hold water. Steel frames, toe clips, downtube shifters, 5,6,7,8,9,10-speeds, etc were all not broke either….
> No one needed an aero frame until someone came up with one….
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wait a minute here!! Rim brake guys have been saying that if disc is pushed onto the pro peloton, then manufacturers will stop making high-end rim brake bikes. But it seems now you're using the same argument, excpet from pro-disc point of view. he he he. Well guess what amigo, this argument is no bueno too. As of right now, there is nothing stopping you from buying a high-end bike with disc, eh. If there is deman, manufacturers will make. Look at all the tri bikes that are selling like hotcakes yet they are not governed by the UCI. Only a SMALL percentage of high-end road bikes are homologated by the UCI rules. You, as an indedpendent consumer who don't give a sh8t about what pro racers do... can go out right now and buy a high-end bike with dics.

but let me guess.. you want that high-end weightweenie frame that the pros ride (even though you claim to give a sh8t about them)... with disc right? I hate to sound elitist here, but if you're looking for a high-end pure racing machine with disc so you can do your jolly ole grand fondo... you a poser man. Come on now! What next? you want shock absorbers on them too? you know, because mtb bikes have shocks eh.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

jetdog9 said:


> Do you really want to get caught up in semantics? Fine, nobody is being "forced" to buy anything, but particularly in the US market we are being "nudged" towards disc brakes when it doesn't fit the needs or desires of many consumers.
> 
> Example: My father-in-law is about to start getting into road riding, and an endurance frame will likely suit him best. But at our price point everything offered in that category is disc only from Cannondale or Specialized as examples. For part swapping and "son-in-law doing a lot of the mechanic work" reasons, we really want him on rim brakes. So we basically have to keep our fingers crossed that we can find a 2014 or 2015 closeout somewhere.
> 
> BTW, funny that if disc brakes are so great, it's at the highest end where rim brakes are still available on a lot of these product lines (or super-lowest, but not the mid range).


Trek may or may not make good bikes, but all of their low to mid level Domane bikes are available with disc OR rim brakes.

Endurance race bikes | Road bikes | Bikes | Trek Bikes

No need to buy a 2 year old model.


----------



## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Ha funny you mention that, it's one that I have pointed out to the F-I-L already, thanks!

Who knows, though, maybe he's flexier than I think and will fit on a CAAD10...


----------



## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I guess I would say I am on the fence about disc brakes. I did go to a bike shop and felt the edge of some rotors on brand name bikes. Some of them are razor sharp and could easily cause significant lacerations. It will probably take a few lawsuits but eventually they will fix that and then the disc brake should be a good brake system that you could buy. As far as rim brakes going away I would not know about that. Possibly what the Pro's decide on would make a huge difference in that. If they continue to race on calipers then the brake system will survive. However I do not know what will happen as I am just chatting about it. 

Anyway I am not going to get disc brakes since my interest is in classic styled bikes but I do think once they are made safe then it should be an excellent braking system. I am against razor sharp discs but see promise in the system for the future. That's about it. My next bike will be for the L'Eroica so obviously disc brakes are not in my future. I currently ride a Columbus Spirit OS lugged bike that is 3 years old. Built in Santa Ynez, Ca. It's totally awesome (at least to me).


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Oh wait a minute here!! Rim brake guys have been saying that if disc is pushed onto the pro peloton, then manufacturers will stop making high-end rim brake bikes. But it seems now you're using the same argument, excpet from pro-disc point of view. he he he. Well guess what amigo, this argument is no bueno too.


A) I never said that manufacturers will not stop making high end rim brake bikes, unlike you, I don't pretend to have a crystal ball about what they will do. Now I did say that your rim brake bikes won't be obsolete because parts will be available for a long time and I also said that no one is forcing you to buy a disc bike

B) My argument was based on the FACT that the UCI has dictated the kind of race/sport bikes available to the public. 
Disc brakes have been around for 20 years on MTB and commuters but it's only now with the potential for the UCI to relax the rules are sport/racing bikes are just starting to become available.

C) I've never been of the position that there shouldn't be options for both, my MO is calling people out on their knee jerk irrational excuses as to why disc brakes are bad. 



> As of right now, there is nothing stopping you from buying a high-end bike with disc, eh.


Except for the fact that they don't really exist. There are hardly any options available as of the moment other than touring and endurance bikes.




> but let me guess.. you want that high-end weightweenie frame that the pros ride (even though you claim to give a sh8t about them)... with disc right? I hate to sound elitist here, but if you're looking for a high-end pure racing machine with disc so you can do your jolly ole grand fondo... you a poser man.


Pot to kettle, eh Amigo?

And you always sound elitist, that's why it's fun to call you out :thumbsup:


.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

MoPho said:


> A)
> B) My argument was based on the FACT that the UCI has dictated the kind of race/sport bikes available to the public.
> Disc brakes have been around for 20 years on MTB and commuters but it's only now with the potential for the UCI to relax the rules are sport/racing bikes are just starting to become available.


Speaking of the UCI..

Will the UCI?s disc-brake ruling impact major bike brands ?*or will consumers even care? | CyclingTips


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Has the industry agreed on a standard yet?

A lot of companies saying they have disc road bikes in development... but what kind? Quick release? 130mm rear hubs? 142mm? 135mm? Thru axle? I think everyone can agree on the flat mount thing, but they can't on rotor size. 140mm or 160mm? Mineral oil? DOT fluid?

Both bike makers and parts makers need to get on the same page here.

Oh, and one thing I think everyone can agree on:

Round off the edges of the discs at the factory from now on...

And once that's all sorted and nice and neat then make them safe somehow and put them back in, you know you want to.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

velodog said:


> Speaking of the UCI..
> 
> Will the UCI?s disc-brake ruling impact major bike brands ?*or will consumers even care? | CyclingTips


reading the article, it seems like the only ones who are really worried are the manufacturers on their profits... all under the guise of "riders safety" mixed in with "innovation".

I like this part about the article



> However what is known is that the UCI’s decision is already impacting the industry, and it’s possible to envision a future where most major cycling events — mountain bike, cyclocross, triathlon, and time trials — are contested using disc brakes, while peloton-style road racing is not.


triathlon and time trials eh? Oh dear lawd, we gotta make sure the Freds have their disc brakes for that awesomely flat time trial eh... after all, disc better than rim brakes, aight... but just so there is no ambuigity... the Freds are gonna want to use the aero helmets like the pros do for the watt saving. Hmm sounds like Freds will be confused a lot


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> reading the article, it seems like the only ones who are really worried are the manufacturers on their profits... all under the guise of "riders safety" mixed in with "innovation".
> 
> I like this part about the article
> 
> ...


Sounds like you may already be? Don't let them intimidate you. Nobody's gonna force children to ride discs!


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Sounds like you may already be? Don't let them intimidate you. Nobody's gonna force children to ride discs!


Sounds like the ones doing the *****ing here are the slow poke adults who think disc on a tt bike will make them safe, you know just in case the speed hit 20 mph on the flat!


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> Has the industry agreed on a standard yet?
> 
> I think everyone can agree on the flat mount thing, but they can't on rotor size. 140mm or 160mm? Mineral oil? DOT fluid?


Personally I think it should be 160mm minimum - I've only been on my first ever bike with Hydro brakes (Shimano Icetech 160mm rotors and resin pads) for 3 weeks and have already experienced brake fade and discoloration of the rotor due to heat after pulling the bike up from a couple of 95kph descents. Granted I may be at the upper end of the scale when it comes to pushing it hard on descents, but I don't think 140mm rotors are nearly good enough unless you are just rolling around on flat ground. I have just upgraded the bike to a 180mm rotor on the front (still 160mm on the rear).


----------



## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

TmB123 said:


> I have just upgraded the bike to a 180mm rotor on the front


Or this?


----------



## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> reading the article, it seems like the only ones who are really worried are the manufacturers on their profits... all under the guise of "riders safety" mixed in with "innovation".
> 
> I like this part about the article
> 
> ...


Damon Rinard, formerly of Cervelo and now with Cannondale, has posted on Slowtwitch that they are developing a TT bike utilizing disc brakes because of the things it allows them to do with the rim and fork. I think he probably knows what he's talking about. I remain skeptical it will be faster than a faired rim brake but if they come up with a new design that proves itself in the wind tunnel I'm open to changing my beliefs.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You may have some kind of contamination on your rotors. Clearly something is wrong as 140mm Ice tech rotors with finned resin pads have been used numerous times by very fast folks on the endless hairpins of rides like the Stelveo without issue (80kph to 30 and back to 80 (more than 30 times in rapid succession--always accelerating or decelerating at the limit.

Did you properly condition the pads and rotor in the beginning with a quick series of decelerations without coming to a stop? 

A lot of folks have gone to 160's on the front simply to balance out the braking forces.

I would suggest you wipe them down with acetone and try again (obviously keep your fingers off the rotor surface.


TmB123 said:


> Personally I think it should be 160mm minimum - I've only been on my first ever bike with Hydro brakes (Shimano Icetech 160mm rotors and resin pads) for 3 weeks and have already experienced brake fade and discoloration of the rotor due to heat after pulling the bike up from a couple of 95kph descents. Granted I may be at the upper end of the scale when it comes to pushing it hard on descents, but I don't think 140mm rotors are nearly good enough unless you are just rolling around on flat ground. I have just upgraded the bike to a 180mm rotor on the front (still 160mm on the rear).


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

I just had a new icetech rotor self destruct on me! w t f eh? 160mm, used with Deore caliper and stock resin pads (cyclocross). The rotor flared out near the edge = junked. Put on one of my TRP rotors and it works fine on the same brake

weird

I have had nothing but disappointment with discs on this bike. Kinda wish it had cantilevers now (though not in rainy season)


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> You may have some kind of contamination on your rotors. Clearly something is wrong as 140mm Ice tech rotors with finned resin pads have been used numerous times by very fast folks on the endless hairpins of rides like the Stelveo without issue (80kph to 30 and back to 80 (more than 30 times in rapid succession--always accelerating or decelerating at the limit.
> 
> Did you properly condition the pads and rotor in the beginning with a quick series of decelerations without coming to a stop?
> 
> ...


Yes, the first ride I did on the bike was a nice long downhill section where I repeatedly built up some speed and then slowed quickly numerous times without stopping. I have also cleaned the rotors with Soudal rotor cleaner. Don't get me wrong, for 99% of riding they have had more than enough power and modulation, but there been a few times where they have struggled when trying to STOP from a very high speed into say a steep downhill junction (i know i could ride a bit slower or brake a bit earlier, but that's not my point). This is a picture of my 2 week old front rotor, is it normal for them to change colour like that?


----------



## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Normal when you get them hot yes. I had a set on my VF1000F Honda that were well blued after 1 frisky 90 mile canyon ride in NW Colorado many years ago, much more discolored than those.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Srode said:


> Normal when you get them hot yes. I had a set on my VF1000F Honda that were well blued after 1 frisky 90 mile canyon ride in NW Colorado many years ago, much more discolored than those.


Nice  but then I'd expect that on a high powered motor cycle.
Im a complete novice in terms of bike discs so have never really payed attention, but can't say I can recall seeing any that looked like they had been really hot like that. Is it normal for road bike discs?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

TmB123 said:


> Nice  but then I'd expect that on a high powered motor cycle.
> Im a complete novice in terms of bike discs so have never really payed attention, but can't say I can recall seeing any that looked like they had been really hot like that. *Is it normal for road bike discs*?


I don't know and don't want to say if that's normal for a road disc, because frankly there hasn't been a lot of folks testing these disc on the road at the speed you're going at, 95 kph! However, in mtb application, where the speed is A LOT slower, I have not seen any disc discolored like that! Not one.

Now you can go to a larger disc like 180mm. While bigger rotors disipate heat faster, but when they get hot (above a certain temp) they also tend to warp more than smaller rotors and thus making more noise. Over time, this warping will become worse, the noise will also become worse, then you get annoyed and replace them. In my experience, the large AND beefy rotors (not the large and weightweenie ones) tend to give good performance AND resiliency.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Those are lacking the cooling fins! Take a look at what they should look like on a road bike that's used for serious downhilling. The pads should have cooling fins as well (dura ace or XTR) 

I think they are now called the ice tech freeza rotorsSM-RT99-S


TmB123 said:


> Yes, the first ride I did on the bike was a nice long downhill section where I repeatedly built up some speed and then slowed quickly numerous times without stopping. I have also cleaned the rotors with Soudal rotor cleaner. Don't get me wrong, for 99% of riding they have had more than enough power and modulation, but there been a few times where they have struggled when trying to STOP from a very high speed into say a steep downhill junction (i know i could ride a bit slower or brake a bit earlier, but that's not my point). This is a picture of my 2 week old front rotor, is it normal for them to change colour like that?
> 
> View attachment 313736


----------



## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> However, in mtb application, where the speed is *A LOT slower*, I have not seen any disc discolored like that! Not one.


Not if you are talking about downhill MTB.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> Those are lacking the cooling fins! Take a look at what they should look like on a road bike that's used for serious downhilling. The pads should have cooling fins as well (dura ace or XTR)
> 
> I think they are now called the ice tech freeza rotorsSM-RT99-S


The Freeza rotors are the next model up from my RT86 Icetech rotors but only come in centre lock and not 6 bolt otherwise i probably would have tried them in a 160mm first as apparently with the cooling capability you can go down a size. And yes, the pads have the fins.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

bvber said:


> Not if you are talking about downhill MTB.


In a typical mtb downhill course, you'll see 80-90 kph max.

In a fast road mountain descent, it's not uncommon to see 100-110 kph. Some pros will hit 120-130 kph going down fast stretches of Ventoux, d'Huez.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Just checking in and can't believe that 290 + post in this thread and no one has nominated you for the HTFU award. Props bro, how in the puck did you a manage a smile after getting your junk sheared off? I'm guessing with the johnson and orbs out of the picture it's a bit easier to pedal. Total respect. 



MoPho said:


> There is no need for disc rotors to be sharp, they can be rounded off.
> 
> This is from a chainring
> 
> ...


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> Those are lacking the cooling fins! Take a look at what they should look like on a road bike that's used for serious downhilling. The pads should have cooling fins as well (dura ace or XTR)
> 
> I think they are now called the ice tech freeza rotorsSM-RT99-S


I've had a bit more time to look at Shimano's offerings now, under their "road" disc offerings they are either the RT99 (Freeza) or RT81 discs. They also appear to be centre lock only.
My RT86's come under their MTB range which perhaps makes some sense on my bike as it is sold as a Gravel/ Adventure bike (Specialized Diverge) rather than an all out road rig. They don't seem to have an equivalent Freeza disc in 6 bolt MTB offering.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

TmB123 said:


> I've had a bit more time to look at Shimano's offerings now, under their "road" disc offerings they are either the RT99 (Freeza) or RT81 discs. They also appear to be centre lock only.
> My RT86's come under their MTB range which perhaps makes some sense on my bike as it is sold as a Gravel/ Adventure bike (Specialized Diverge) rather than an all out road rig. They don't seem to have an equivalent Freeza disc in 6 bolt MTB offering.


Jagwire makes a cooling fin 6-bolt rotor similar to the Freeza. I would give them a try before going to 180mm.

http://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Elite...ords=Elite+CR1+Vented+Disc+Brake+Rotor,+160mm
EB14: Jagwire Warms up to Disc Brakes w/ New Finned Cooling Rotors - Bikerumor

I run the RT86 on my road disc. And I'm using regular pads too, not the finned ones. I've had no problems. Although I'm not reaching the speeds you are. We have short steep descents. 45mph is about the limit and only for a short time. So I don't have long hard braking.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Rides with Disc's = Run's with Scissors

Don't draft Freddy Kruger, Wolverine or peewee Herman when he is shitting ninja swords and chainsaws.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Squrkey said:


> Rides with Disc's = Run's with Scissors
> 
> Don't draft Freddy Kruger, Wolverine or peewee Herman when he is shitting ninja swords and chainsaws.


worse is the dozens of bladed spokes, handlebar ends and sawtooth chainrings on any given bike. might as well give up bike racing/group riding then if your panties in a wad over disk brakes


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> worse is the dozens of bladed spokes, handlebar ends and sawtooth chainrings on any given bike. might as well give up bike racing/group riding then if your panties in a wad over disk brakes


Let's not forget brake levers. I saw a guy after a bunch sprint pile up who was stabbed in the back of the head with one. Tore his scalp wide open. If it had been an inch lower, would have hit his spinal chord. I can't believe we still use those damn things.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

BCSaltchucker said:


> worse is the dozens of bladed spokes, handlebar ends and sawtooth chainrings on any given bike. might as well give up bike racing/group riding then if your panties in a wad over disk brakes


Agreed, I was being sarcastic!


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

202cycle said:


> Let's not forget brake levers. I saw a guy after a bunch sprint pile up who was stabbed in the back of the head with one. Tore his scalp wide open. If it had been an inch lower, would have hit his spinal chord. I can't believe we still use those damn things.



I once cut my finger on my shifter paddle, it was traumatic 


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Squrkey said:


> Just checking in and can't believe that 290 + post in this thread and no one has nominated you for the HTFU award. Props bro, how in the puck did you a manage a smile after getting your junk sheared off? I'm guessing with the johnson and orbs out of the picture it's a bit easier to pedal. Total respect.



Ha! That ain't me amigo! That be aclinjury, he da man, aight!! 


(or maybe it's Alex Howe per the link) 
.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

MoPho said:


> Ha! That ain't me amigo! That be aclinjury, he da man, aight!!
> 
> 
> (or maybe it's Alex Howe per the link)
> .


...right it is Alex Howes, I didn't recognize him without his penis. I had no idea he went all Caitlen Jenner on us. I wonder how is able to compete in men's races? Pretty extreme way to shave off a few grams.


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## shermes (Jul 26, 2008)

Squrkey said:


> ...right it is Alex Howes, I didn't recognize him without his penis. I had no idea he went all Caitlen Jenner on us. I wonder how is able to compete in men's races? Pretty extreme way to shave off a few grams.


Maybe you didn't recognize him because it's not Alex Howes it's a picture of Andre Cardoso posted by Alex Howes.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

shermes said:


> Maybe you didn't recognize him because it's not Alex Howes it's a picture of Andre Cardoso posted by Alex Howes.


...this is the internet, facts don't matter.


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## shermes (Jul 26, 2008)

Squrkey said:


> ...this is the internet, facts don't matter.


Good point!


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Spain joins France in banning disc brakes from road events including sportives | road.cc

Moved your sportive ride to Spain from France? NO GO! Hahahaha.



> Officials accompanying such events, whether of a competitive nature or not, will be able to expel any participant who turns up with a bike equipped with disc brakes. Even if it is discovered once the event has begun [the rider] will be asked to leave for safety reasons, just the same as if they had started without a helmet.
> 
> Coca told El Periodico that the regulations were “clear, precise and forceful,” and added that the RFEC would seek to send up to six officials to events to ensure that they were complied with.


"Sorry Sir. We don't allow Freds here at this event. No we're very serious Sir, you're not allowed to ride. I understand you paid and are registered Sir. It's your bike Sir, your bike is not allowed here, it's the disc brakes, they're banned. That's correct Sir, you're not allowed to ride this event on that bike. You will have to ask the administration about a refund, they have a special tent set up just for Freds over there in the back."


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Spain joins France in banning disc brakes from road events including sportives | road.cc
> 
> Moved your sportive ride to Spain from France? NO GO! Hahahaha.
> 
> ...


I like this except that I think they should also have to be paraded around with a scarlet "D" on the jersey for additional crowd shaming


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Non! No refund for L’Etape du Tour entrant affected by disc brake ban | road.cc

Nevermind, they don't have a refund tent or anything of the sort.
No refunds, period. Registered and only have a disc brake bike? You're up a creek pal.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Warning, much blood and gore in this video 










.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

MoPho said:


> Warning, much blood and gore in this video


That was a crazy high speed pile up with bikes flying everywhere!


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> That was a crazy high speed pile up with bikes flying everywhere!


man I hate it when youtuber put up a halfassed demo, he didn't put his hand right at the shape edges on. It would have been nice to see him put his shin to the outside sharpe edges!


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> man I hate it when youtuber put up a halfassed demo, he didn't put his hand right at the shape edges on. It would have been nice to see him put his shin to the outside sharpe edges!


Remember when GCN did this test? They were actually trying to prove/show to everyone they are safe by putting a sausage against it. I think they were testing for burns?

https://youtu.be/JplymlruPZ8?t=2m16s

lol, the spokes.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Remember when GCN did this test? They were actually trying to prove/show to everyone they are safe by putting a sausage against it. I think they were testing for burns?
> 
> https://youtu.be/JplymlruPZ8?t=2m16s
> 
> lol, the spokes.


they stood there and chat a bit while letting the disc cool down a bit, should have put the sausage in there immediately!

lol I almost spit it all out when the sausage hit the spokes!


----------



## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> man I hate it when youtuber put up a halfassed demo, he didn't put his hand right at the shape edges on. It would have been nice to see him put his shin to the outside sharpe edges!


He stopped the bike with his hand on the disc brake. Using your logic, a sheet of paper is deadly because if you hold it just right you can slice open someone's skin. When the wheel is moving 40kph+ I'd bet that the tire would do more damage than the brake if you tried to slowly stop the motion with your shin on the outside tread edge.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

MoPho said:


> Warning, much blood and gore in this video
> 
> 
> .


Well clearly he should have used his left hand like the Movistar rider did his left leg.

Kinda reminds me of this a little


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> That was a crazy high speed pile up with bikes flying everywhere!


So are you suggesting that in a big pile up with bikes flying and bouncing everywhere that a rider would be subjected to such a prolonged contact with the disc as depicted in the video? 

I would say that this video is fairly representative of the contact that Ventoso claims he had.







aclinjury said:


> man I hate it when youtuber put up a halfassed demo, he didn't put his hand right at the shape edges on. It would have been nice to see him put his shin to the outside sharpe edges!


He was pressing down hard enough that the edges would have made contact. No matter how you try and debunk this, it still shows that they are not knife blade sharp as many like to hysterically claim 

That said, a guy I ride with has Shimano disc on his road bike and I think they are pretty sharp, I was surprised that the guy in the video didn't cut himself.




> they stood there and chat a bit while letting the disc cool down a bit, should have put the sausage in there immediately!


They never actually put the sausage against the disc to try and burn it either, they just talked about it. They showed a test for the cutting


.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Will disc brakes be banned in British sportives? - BikeRadar

Will the Brits ban disc brakes as well as the French and Spanish?









not a chance.


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

MoPho said:


> I would say that this video is fairly representative of the contact that Ventoso claims he had.
> 
> 
> .


Not really, Ventoso says he slammed into a stationary bike, this guy would have been better off just punching the rotor


----------



## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

TmB123 said:


> Not really, Ventoso says he slammed into a stationary bike, this guy would have been better off just punching the rotor


Re-reading it, he doesn't say the other bike was stationary, only that he ran into the back of another bike that was also trying to avoid the crash and that he was able to keep on riding without falling (and of course the question is how he was able to hit the left side of the other bike with his left leg and keep riding).

Regardless, the shimano disc would be a much more effective cutting knife of death while spinning and he claims he was lucky to not lose his leg in the incident.


----------



## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

Keoki said:


> That's insane!
> 
> Can someone translate that into English?


Sure, he wrote:
"Somewhere in the race, I touched someone else in the peloton. I don't know who it was, or how a disc rotor would cut my left leg, or why the jagged edge looks like a cassette gear, but nonetheless this proves that discs are unsafe."


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

The story with his statement is on veloenews.com
Injured Ventoso blasts use of road discs - VeloNews.com

I'm a bit unclear how he could sustain that particular injury in the way he describes. It doesn't really add up. In fact it's pretty hard to imagine that happening at all while on a bike, even crashing into another bike (assuming it's upright), whether is has flesh eating disc brakes or not.

You can see a picture of the actual gash on his leg by doing a google image search for 'Ventoso leg cut' (warning, images are somewhat graphic). 

As far as I know, no one has identified the rider he hit, or whether there was even a disc equipped bike in the pile up, and again, as far as I know, no disc bike riders have come forward to claim they were involved.

His story, and he's apparently sticking to it;


Ventoso said:


> Let me take you to 130km into the race: into a cobbled section, a pile-up splits the field, with riders falling everywhere. I’ve got to break [brake] but I can’t avoid crashing against the rider in front of me, who was also trying not to hit the ones ahead. I didn’t actually fall down: it was only my leg touching the back of his bike. I keep riding. But shortly afterwards, I have a glance at that leg: it doesn’t hurt, there’s not a lot of blood covering it, but I can clearly see part of the periosteum, the membrane or surface that covers my tibia


----------



## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> As far as I know, no one has identified the rider he hit, or whether there was even a disc equipped bike in the pile up, and again, as far as I know, no disc bike riders have come forward to claim they were involved.
> 
> His story, and he's apparently sticking to it;


Even if he now had doubts himself, I doubt that he'd change his story given the fallout.

I read an article a few days after the incident (might have been on Cyclingnews) that said neither of the disc brake equipped teams had a rider that could recall being in an incident where they were hit from behind.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

TmB123 said:


> Even if he now had doubts himself, I doubt that he'd change his story given the fallout.
> 
> I read an article a few days after the incident (might have been on Cyclingnews) that said neither of the disc brake equipped teams had a rider that could recall being in an incident where they were hit from behind.


In the confusion of a crash, riders aren't necessarily going to know exactly how things went down. If Ventoso hit the rider in front's disc brake, the rider hit might not think so. The gash on his knee sure looks like a disc sliced into it. Almost took the skin off his knee. What else would do that except the disc on the left side of the rear wheel? It was a clean [sharp] cut. Ventoso didn't even realize it until seeing the blood streaming down his leg.

A fellow club rider ran into me once, not paying attention to a necessary stop. His front wheel almost undid my quick release lever, which I used to have pointing to the rear. It was in the same point of contact a disc would be.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Look, just because the gash in on his left leg and disc rotors are on the left side, it does not preclude this injury. He may have been racing in the opposite direction of the disc brake team or (and this is more likely), he may have been racing side-saddle. In either case his left leg could be on the side necessary to sustain the injury as he described the incident.

It's clear that the UCI needs to ban both of these activities if they are going to allow razor sharp disc rotors. 

In other news, it is critical to the haters to ensure these brakes don't get used in the Giro where the clear superiority would show on the fast twisting descents (especially stage 14).


Migen21 said:


> The story with his statement is on veloenews.com
> Injured Ventoso blasts use of road discs - VeloNews.com
> 
> I'm a bit unclear how he could sustain that particular injury in the way he describes. It doesn't really add up. In fact it's pretty hard to imagine that happening at all while on a bike, even crashing into another bike (assuming it's upright), whether is has flesh eating disc brakes or not.
> ...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> Look, just because the gash in on his left leg and disc rotors are on the left side, it does not preclude this injury. He may have been racing in the opposite direction of the disc brake team or (and this is more likely), he may have been racing side-saddle. In either case his left leg could be on the side necessary to sustain the injury as he described the incident.
> 
> It's clear that the UCI needs to ban both of these activities if they are going to allow razor sharp disc rotors.
> 
> In other news, it is critical to the haters to ensure these brakes don't get used in the Giro where the clear superiority would show on the fast twisting descents (especially stage 14).


So that's not his right leg? Hmmm…


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> He stopped the bike with his hand on the disc brake. Using your logic, a sheet of paper is deadly because if you hold it just right you can slice open someone's skin. When the wheel is moving 40kph+ I'd bet that the tire would do more damage than the brake if you tried to slowly stop the motion with your shin on the outside tread edge.


and you are not using my logic


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> In the confusion of a crash, riders aren't necessarily going to know exactly how things went down. If Ventoso hit the rider in front's disc brake, the rider hit might not think so. The gash on his knee sure looks like a disc sliced into it. Almost took the skin off his knee. What else would do that except the disc on the left side of the rear wheel? It was a clean [sharp] cut. Ventoso didn't even realize it until seeing the blood streaming down his leg.
> 
> A fellow club rider ran into me once, not paying attention to a necessary stop. His front wheel almost undid my quick release lever, which I used to have pointing to the rear. It was in the same point of contact a disc would be.


i can totally understand how a front wheel could (almost) undo a QR, but now put yourself in that situation and imagine how you could cut the shin on the front of your LEFT leg on a QR or disc etc while remaining upright - it's on the wrong side of the bike.
Ventoso said that there wasn't really any blood, just the gash - could have just as easily come from a cassette, RD, pedal, lots of things down the RHS of the bike. Ventoso injured his shin, the cut on the knee was actually another rider that came into the ambulance while Ventoso was there and it was Ventoso that claimed it was another victim of a disc which has sice been discredited by numerous photographs of said riders accident and not one disc equipped bike was anywhere to be seen.
I'm not saying that Ventoso doesn't believe he was injured by a disc, but given the evidence, or complete lack there of, and the fact that the injury is on the wrong side of the body, it seems unlikely (to me at least) that a disc was the culprit. I don't doubt that given the right circumstance, in a big high speed pile up with bodies and bikes flying, a disc (or any number of things on a bicycle) could cause a significant injury.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> and you are not using my logic


Thank God.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

It doesn't matter if he's lying or not. He can clearly get away with it if he is. What matters is liability or insurance or lawsuits or whatever. Insurance is probably what's driving the ban.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I agree - and you can blame the overly litigious society that we live in these days for that


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

MMsRepBike said:


> It doesn't matter if he's lying or not. He can clearly get away with it if he is. What matters is liability or insurance or lawsuits or whatever. Insurance is probably what's driving the ban.


Yet Motorcycles are still not banned from cycling events?

Just the latest Moto vs. Riders incident:

https://youtu.be/hFkBJZmVVc8


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

brings new meaning to _slice and dice_ your way to the front of the pack!


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

arai_speed said:


> Yet Motorcycles are still not banned from cycling events?
> 
> Just the latest Moto vs. Riders incident:
> 
> https://youtu.be/hFkBJZmVVc8


This is off topic but...

Being new to road biking and watching the pros on TV I don't understand why half of the motos are out there riding around. I understand having a few camera bikes but that should be it. Why do they need someone riding around with a chalkboard just to show lead riders the gap to the peleton?

Team cars are another thing. I know cycling isn't like other forms of racing but it seems unnessisary. In other forms of racing if flats and mechanicals are a problem you fix the design flaws so failures don't happen to begin with.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

arai_speed said:


> Yet Motorcycles are still not banned from cycling events?
> 
> Just the latest Moto vs. Riders incident:
> 
> https://youtu.be/hFkBJZmVVc8


WTF did the motorcyclist just stop right in the middle of the pack, at the sprints at the end of the race? ut: That's totally absurd. The motos slide over to one side and back off sooner than when this idiot did. Sure hope there were consequences for this idiot's mistake.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Fredrico said:


> WTF did the motorcyclist just stop right in the middle of the pack, at the sprints at the end of the race? ut: That's totally absurd. The motos slide over to one side and back off sooner than when this idiot did. Sure hope there were consequences for this idiot's mistake.


I'm wondering if he stalled it but I'm sure its electric start. The first rider hit HARD!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

TmB123 said:


> i can totally understand how a front wheel could (almost) undo a QR, but now put yourself in that situation and imagine how you could cut the shin on the front of your LEFT leg on a QR or disc etc while remaining upright - it's on the wrong side of the bike.
> Ventoso said that there wasn't really any blood, just the gash - could have just as easily come from a cassette, RD, pedal, lots of things down the RHS of the bike. Ventoso injured his shin, the cut on the knee was actually another rider that came into the ambulance while Ventoso was there and it was Ventoso that claimed it was another victim of a disc which has sice been discredited by numerous photographs of said riders accident and not one disc equipped bike was anywhere to be seen.
> I'm not saying that Ventoso doesn't believe he was injured by a disc, but given the evidence, or complete lack there of, and the fact that the injury is on the wrong side of the body, it seems unlikely (to me at least) that a disc was the culprit. I don't doubt that given the right circumstance, in a big high speed pile up with bodies and bikes flying, a disc (or any number of things on a bicycle) could cause a significant injury.


I'll take Ventoso's word for it. If the bike he ran into was already down, and Ventose fell toward his left side, I could imagine his left leg hitting the disc with his left knee. What else on a bike would leave a similar cut? It sure doesn't look like road rash.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

pmf said:


> Didn't trispoke wheels get banned for supposed safety reasons?


Seem to remember they did get banned. Are they now legal?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fajita Dave said:


> This is off topic but...
> 
> Being new to road biking and watching the pros on TV I don't understand why half of the motos are out there riding around. I understand having a few camera bikes but that should be it. Why do they need someone riding around with a chalkboard just to show lead riders the gap to the peleton?
> 
> Team cars are another thing. I know cycling isn't like other forms of racing but it seems unnessisary. In other forms of racing if flats and mechanicals are a problem you fix the design flaws so failures don't happen to begin with.


Chalkboards have been in use since pre radio. Personally I'd prefer that the radios were done away with, but that's been settled.

What are these design flaws of which you speak? Other types of races have pit stops, not easily done on a point to point race.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> I'll take Ventoso's word for it. If the bike he ran into was already down, and Ventose fell toward his left side, I could imagine his left leg hitting the disc with his left knee. What else on a bike would leave a similar cut? It sure doesn't look like road rash.



Except Ventoso said he didn't fall and that he ran into another rider/bike that was also trying to avoid the crash, so that bike was upright. 


.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Fajita Dave said:


> Team cars are another thing. I know cycling isn't like other forms of racing but it seems unnessisary. In other forms of racing if flats and mechanicals are a problem you fix the design flaws so failures don't happen to begin with.



The drivers of the team cars are completely distracted too. I saw a video that showed the driver/team principle speeding along the course, while watching a tv screen mounted on the dash that was showing race footage. He was endangering the riders and the spectators. 





























velodog said:


> Other types of races have pit stops, not easily done on a point to point race.


In Rallying, it's a point to point race and if you get a flat the driver/co-driver have to change it themselves and lose the time. Get rid of the team support (or at least neutral support) and it would make things a lot more interesting. You get a flat, TFB, better luck next time. It would give more people a chance to win too. 







.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Sticky bottle gone wrong


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> I'll take Ventoso's word for it. If the bike he ran into was already down, and Ventose fell toward his left side, I could imagine his left leg hitting the disc with his left knee. What else on a bike would leave a similar cut? It sure doesn't look like road rash.


I'm thinking possibly a cassette or the back end of a chain ring did it?
Ventoso said neither bike fell over, he just crashed into the back of one, both remained upright.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think we are all missing something in this discussion. First, if the UCI officials are too stupid to figure out the improbability that these cuts were caused by a disc rotor and second, if they were too stupid to figure out that discs shouldn't and don't need to have sharp edges regardless, how do pro racers continue to have any confidence in the leadership of pro racing?

Is it time to sh!t-can this organization or are we just not getting the true story? I have trouble believing that this organization could even find the number of Bozos needed to end up where it appears they are.

I suspect we will eventually find that the motivation for the ban has nothing to do with this non-event.


TmB123 said:


> I'm thinking possibly a cassette or the back end of a chain ring did it?
> Ventoso said neither bike fell over, he just crashed into the back of one, both remained upright.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think we are all missing something in this discussion. First, if the UCI officials are too stupid to figure out the improbability that these cuts were caused by a disc rotor and second, if they were too stupid to figure out that discs shouldn't and don't need to have sharp edges regardless, how do pro racers continue to have any confidence in the leadership of pro racing?
> 
> Is it time to sh!t-can this organization or are we just not getting the true story? I have trouble believing that this organization could even find the number of Bozos needed to end up where it appears they are.
> 
> I suspect we will eventually find that the motivation for the ban has nothing to do with this non-event.


You could be right, Swift. The UCI has a rich history as a governing force eliciting ridicule by riders. The deciders are jocks, basically, like in football and baseball, often not too swift investigating and resolving issues. When their official line is found unsatisfactory, they clam up like the cops.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I may have missed it - but I assume the "bozos" at the UCI held a thorough investigation before banning the use of discs, was that ever made public? Would be interesting to see how they came to the conclusions that they did, or didn't...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

TmB123 said:


> I may have missed it - but I assume the "bozos" at the UCI held a thorough investigation before banning the use of discs, was that ever made public? Would be interesting to see how they came to the conclusions that they did, or didn't...


I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

velodog said:


> Chalkboards have been in use since pre radio. Personally I'd prefer that the radios were done away with, but that's been settled.
> 
> What are these design flaws of which you speak? Other types of races have pit stops, not easily done on a point to point race.


Usually in more touring style racing (rally or enduro on a dirtbike) there are no pit stops. If you have a flat or mechanical you need to fix it yourself. They made mousse for dirtbike tires which guarentees you wont have a flat.

Flats seem like the main issues that require a team car. If you ban team cars tire manufactures will need to find a more reliable solution that eliminate any possibility of a flat. I'm sure the tires would be a little slower but its not like your putting led weights in the wheels or something. At a race in Richmond, VA last year a rider had issues with the electronic shifting. I'm pretty sure he swapped out a complete bike. Without team cars manufatures would need to make sure components are more reliable.

If the bikes were 100% reliable why would they need team cars in the first place?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Except Ventoso said he didn't fall and that he ran into another rider/bike that was also trying to avoid the crash, so that bike was upright.
> 
> 
> .


his bike could have gotten turned sideway enough to allow his left side to ram into the guy in front


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fajita Dave said:


> Usually in more touring style racing (rally or enduro on a dirtbike) there are no pit stops. If you have a flat or mechanical you need to fix it yourself. They made mousse for dirtbike tires which guarentees you wont have a flat.
> 
> Flats seem like the main issues that require a team car. If you ban team cars tire manufactures will need to find a more reliable solution that eliminate any possibility of a flat. I'm sure the tires would be a little slower but its not like your putting led weights in the wheels or something. At a race in Richmond, VA last year a rider had issues with the electronic shifting. I'm pretty sure he swapped out a complete bike. Without team cars manufatures would need to make sure components are more reliable.
> 
> If the bikes were 100% reliable why would they need team cars in the first place?



If they got rid of team cars then the riders would race on a regular road bike that is reliable. Tires would be a combination of performance and reliability. Without team cars and support vehicles running over racers and spectators the sport would be much safer and improved. It would make it fun and I would probably watch.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

TmB123 said:


> but I assume the "*bozos*" at the UCI held a thorough investigation before banning the use of discs, was that ever made public? Would be interesting to see how they came to the conclusions that they did, or didn't...


I think his name is _Knee_ "_The Jerk_" _Reactor_.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Leaked notes reveal that UCI will restart disc brake trial in June | CyclingTips


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Leaked notes reveal that UCI will restart disc brake trial in June | CyclingTips


"Perhaps the most impactful finding is that a forensic medical doctor — albeit one commissioned by the WFSGI — has concluded that Ventoso’s gruesome injury was most likely caused by a chainring, not a disc brake rotor."


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

Specialized is readying it's legal team to take on anyone who makes a disc guard....


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

they'll be at the tdf, that's what I read.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

tlg said:


> "Perhaps the most impactful finding is that a forensic medical doctor — albeit one commissioned by the WFSGI — has concluded that Ventoso’s gruesome injury was most likely caused by a chainring, not a disc brake rotor."


I wonder if Ventoso was available for comment, perhaps he could write an open letter...


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

TmB123 said:


> I wonder if Ventoso was available for comment, perhaps he could write an open letter...


Careful of those papercuts!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

The UCI reversed it's decision and the trial is back on. In 2017 disc brakes will be the regular thing in the Peloton. See Cycling News.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

BikeLayne said:


> The UCI reversed it's decision and the trial is back on. In 2017 disc brakes will be the regular thing in the Peloton. See Cycling News.


Thank God marketing and sponsor pressure won the day


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

harryman said:


> Specialized is readying it's legal team to take on anyone who makes a disc guard....
> 
> View attachment 313922


I wonder if that will cause overheating issues on mountain descents.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> Thank God marketing and sponsor pressure won the day


why so cynical?


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

There's a road bike disc brake argument going on over at the surfermag forum! This issue is tearing our country apart!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

If only everybody had disc brakes.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

It debatable whether Ventoso was injured by a disc so I wont argue that. I think its pretty obvious that the industry has dumped a LOT of money into discs and having those discs on pro bikes is critical to their marketing. It does not seem like the riders are begging for discs so the only conclusion I can reach is that the component sponsors are applying a lot of pressure on the UCI


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> It debatable whether Ventoso was injured by a disc so I wont argue that. I think its pretty obvious that the industry has dumped a LOT of money into discs and having those discs on pro bikes is critical to their marketing. It does not seem like the riders are begging for discs so the only conclusion I can reach is that the component sponsors are applying a lot of pressure on the UCI


This.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Can't argue with that.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

What DaveG said.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think you miss the point. Road hydro disc brakes sales have been brisk for a couple of years with pro racing contributing only negative marketing value up to this point. Most manufacturers were caught by surprise and fell behind in production and delivery until this year. Remember, the percentage of overall sales started at zero just 3 years ago.

I can't imagine any serious mountain biker considering rim brakes at this point and that has little or nothing to do with pro racing.

Those who ride any significant portion of their time on technical road descents will not remain on rim brakes. As they become educated and learn to ignore the ass-talkers they will give hydro discs a try in that environment and finally experience reality. Those who ride in the flat lands will likely not see enough benefit to make the change.

Pro racing has resisted every change since its' inception with the possible exception of carbon wheels with carbon brake tracks--likely the most ass-backwards invention ever (I had been on them for several years until 3 years ago when I converted to discs. They were fine on the flats in dry weather and on straight descents where rapid deceleration was not of value but were complete sh!t on technical descents).

The only contribution that pro racing will eventually make is to demonstrate the superiority of discs on technical descents and it appears the UCI will not allow that to happen until Campy gets their act together (look for a new lamb excuse to keep them out of the TDF this year)
MT


DaveG said:


> It debatable whether Ventoso was injured by a disc so I wont argue that. I think its pretty obvious that the industry has dumped a LOT of money into discs and having those discs on pro bikes is critical to their marketing. It does not seem like the riders are begging for discs so the only conclusion I can reach is that the component sponsors are applying a lot of pressure on the UCI


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I guess the discussion has reached it's conclusion for me. Pro's are going to ride disc brakes either all or part. The safety or lack of safety of disc brakes is really up to them and I do not care one way or the other what they ride. I have no interest in Pro cycling to speak of. I do look at Cycling News just to see who won but I do that with golf, football and baseball also. I guess they have already decided that it's Nibali's turn to win the Giro which is weird to me since he got caught for mechanical doping. 

Myself I have a custom steel bike that I had built for me 3 years ago in Santa Ynez Calif. I like the bike a lot and have no issues with my brakes. I use Shimano R451 mid reach brakes as I wanted fender clearance. I rode the Tierra Bella 100K in Morgan hill last Saturday and it worked fine in the hills around Morgan hill Calif going up or down. It was all fine. I did not race downhill yelling on your left as I passed with traffic coming up the hills. That's a lifeflight extraction move that I avoid.. I just coasted down like almost everyone else. 

I guess those of you that want to buy off the rack bikes with disc brakes should just go buy one and be happy. Those that do not want that should just keep on riding your bike and save your money. That is what I am going to do. I am probably good for life with my current bike as it will not wear out. But if I decide I want another one I think I will just grab a torch and braze one up. I like to work in the shop anyway.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think you miss the point. Road hydro disc brakes sales have been brisk for a couple of years with pro racing contributing only negative marketing value up to this point. Most manufacturers were caught by surprise and fell behind in production and delivery until this year. Remember, the percentage of overall sales started at zero just 3 years ago.
> 
> I can't imagine any serious mountain biker considering rim brakes at this point and that has little or nothing to do with pro racing.
> 
> ...


I dont believe I missed the point. You are arguing an entirely different point. Your argument is that discs are better for technical descents. I cant weigh in on that since I dont live in the Alps. My point was that the UCI seems very over-eager to push disc brakes even though the peloton has been lukewarm to them at best. My conclusion is that the UCI is more responsive to the sponsors than the riders


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The only thing I disagree with you on is in treating pro riders as a monolith. Their rather impotent, minimally representative, unions' interest is in becoming relevant--something they have failed to do up to this point.

I agree that the UCI's interest is in protecting the interests of *euro* manufacturers (at the expense of others). Surely you are not suggesting that they truly buy into the idea that this particular accident was caused by a disc rotor? Further, the mindset required to believe that solving the sharp disc problem requires anything more than filing the edges into a smooth radius requires a vivid imagination.

In the unlikely event that discs are allowed to be used in the TDF (the UCI will find another lame excuse to give Campy more time), I believe we will see new and exciting downhill racing strategies and a wider variation in skills. We will also see the difference in the level of technological achievement of disc brake manufacturers.


DaveG said:


> I dont believe I missed the point. You are arguing an entirely different point. Your argument is that discs are better for technical descents. I cant weigh in on that since I dont live in the Alps. My point was that the UCI seems very over-eager to push disc brakes even though the peloton has been lukewarm to them at best. My conclusion is that the UCI is more responsive to the sponsors than the riders


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Personally I think rounded edge disks will be far safer than chain wheels and cassettes. I still don't want disks on my road bike but its a nice option. I also don't see there being any real advantage in braking performance. For some riders the precise feel disks provide might let them in perticular ride tecky descents faster with confidence while others might be just as fast on rim brakes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> Pro racing has resisted every change since its' inception with the possible exception of carbon wheels with carbon brake tracks--likely the most ass-backwards invention ever (I had been on them for several years until 3 years ago when I converted to discs. They were fine on the flats in dry weather and on straight descents where rapid deceleration was not of value but were complete sh!t on technical descents).


So for "several years" you rode carbon wheels with carbon brake tracks even though you consider them "the most ass-backwards invention ever". But now you're riding hydro disc brakes, seeing as you've become "educated" and have experienced "reality".

It sure seems that you're the manufacturers target customer who is buying whatever it is that they're selling.

And me, well I guess that I'm an "ass-talker" that isn't drinking as much of the kool aide as you.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> So for "several years" you rode carbon wheels with carbon brake tracks even though you consider them "the most ass-backwards invention ever". But now you're riding hydro disc brakes, seeing as you've become "educated" and have experienced "reality".
> 
> It sure seems that you're the manufacturers target customer who is buying whatever it is that they're selling.
> 
> And me, well I guess that I'm an "ass-talker" that isn't drinking as much of the kool aide as you.


Look, man, Swiift lives in the mountains and has lots of descents. Disc brakes are perfect for him.

But for the rest of us flat landers, the problem is going up, not descending. So we just squeeze on those old rim brakes a little harder. Big deal.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> But for the rest of us flat landers, the problem is going up,


Is this some kind of adult humor...?


----------



## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> I think you miss the point. Road hydro disc brakes sales have been brisk for a couple of years with pro racing contributing only negative marketing value up to this point. Most manufacturers were caught by surprise and fell behind in production and delivery until this year. Remember, the percentage of overall sales started at zero just 3 years ago.
> 
> I can't imagine any serious mountain biker considering rim brakes at this point and that has little or nothing to do with pro racing.
> 
> ...


It's mildly comical how invested you are in this topic and the lengths to which you'll go to justify it.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I think he's an early adopter, or what we call "stuck with it"!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Look, man, Swiift lives in the mountains and has lots of descents. Disc brakes are perfect for him.


Yeah, but, for several years he rode carbon rimmed wheels which he now considers "the most ass-backwards invention ever" which I assume he considered, as you so aptly put, perfect for him.

I guess, in those bygone days, he lived in the mountains and had lots of ascents. 

My, the times they are a changing.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bvber said:


> Is this some kind of adult humor...?
> View attachment 313939


No, the problem is getting up, would be some kind of adult humor.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Yeah, but, for several years he rode carbon rimmed wheels which he now considers "the most ass-backwards invention ever" which I assume he considered, as you so aptly put, perfect for him.
> 
> I guess, in those bygone days, he lived in the mountains and had lots of ascents.
> 
> My, the times they are a changing.


Well, I presume Swift had second thoughts on his new carbon rims after discovering they don't work worth a damn in the mountains. But put the brake on a disc, presto, carbon rims are now possible in the mountains. Better go through axle, too, just to be safe.

We flat landers can keep what we got. When somebody scolds me for running bad Campy single pivot calipers, I just answer, "I don't brake." And when I had to, never had any problem stopping except once caught in a wet snow storm. Brakes are one of the most unimportant components on a bike. They all work. Rider only uses them to adjust speed as a last resort, a practice that can even be done descending mountains.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Anyone who still had doubts about who really controls the UCI regulations should see pretty crystal clearly now. I have a feeling this is going to re-ignite the ASO/UCI feud because I predict the ASO will join the FFC in banning discs in their races. I have the popcorn ready!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> Anyone who still had doubts about who really controls the UCI regulations should see pretty crystal clearly now. I have a feeling this is going to re-ignite the ASO/UCI feud because I predict the ASO will join the FFC in banning discs in their races. I have the popcorn ready!


the takeaway post of this entire thread!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

What happened to me was, I did not realize the difficulty of quantifying how much slower I had become on the descents after I changed rims (I started with zipp 303's when they had aluminum brake tracks and they seemed fast). When zipp stopped making them, I switch over to the new models because my powertap had crapped out and the brake tracks were getting seriously worn. 

My main riding partner began getting faster and faster after that (we are both addicted to downhilling and been going after each other since the earliest mountain bike days when he was still a teenager). 

Three years ago while we were both training for our upcoming trip to the Dolomites, arthritis began working over some of my fingers and braking became noticeably painful on steep / technical descents. I ordered my DI2 synapse hi-mod hydro disc and received it a couple of weeks before our trip. It became clear instantly that the gains he had made were actually losses that I had suffered. His advantage in the technical, fast descents had vanished overnight with the arrival of my new bike. 

Needless to say, both he and my other training / Dolomites partners bought new hydro disc bikes before our return trip last year. 

I never considered them perfect for me and tried several aftermarket brakes to mitigate other obvious braking issues with them (I ended up with EEbrakes--arguable the most powerful and expensive rim brakes on the market after trying several others). 

Edit: Their are no serious bikers who ride in the mountains who remain oblivious to the deficiency of carbon rims on descents. Also, quite quickly, the numbers who remain oblivious to the deficiency of both when compared discs is pretty much limited to those who have not tried them on technical descents. This is not to ignore that those with experience on them will have a serious advantage for a year or two (converted MTB riders)--thus the handful of loud pro haters. 



velodog said:


> Yeah, but, for several years he rode carbon rimmed wheels which he now considers "the most ass-backwards invention ever" which I assume he considered, as you so aptly put, perfect for him.
> 
> I guess, in those bygone days, he lived in the mountains and had lots of ascents.
> 
> My, the times they are a changing.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> What happened to me was, I did not realize the difficulty of quantifying how much slower I had become on the descents after I changed rims (I started with zipp 303's when they had aluminum brake tracks and they seemed fast). When zipp stopped making them, I switch over to the new models because my powertap had crapped out and the brake tracks were getting seriously worn.
> 
> My main riding partner began getting faster and faster after that (we are both addicted to downhilling and been going after each other since the earliest mountain bike days when he was still a teenager).
> 
> ...


What I'm reading here is that the benefit of the disc brake is the return of the efficiency that you lost going from aluminum rims and brake tracks to carbon rims and brake tracks.

This has less to do with brake choice and more to do with rim material.


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

velodog said:


> What I'm reading here is that the benefit of the disc brake is the return of the efficiency that you lost going from aluminum rims and brake tracks to carbon rims and brake tracks.
> 
> This has less to do with brake choice and more to do with rim material.


If I had arthritis in my fingers disk brakes would probably improve my technical downhill skills too. I'd estimate it cuts effort required at the lever nearly in half for the same effect on braking. However, I don't have arthritis and my brakes are plenty strong with great modulation. So I wont gain any advantage with disks.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fajita Dave said:


> If I had arthritis in my fingers disk brakes would probably improve my technical downhill skills too. I'd estimate it cuts effort required at the lever nearly in half for the same effect on braking. However, I don't have arthritis and my brakes are plenty strong with great modulation. So I wont gain any advantage with disks.


The funny thing about that arthritis affecting brake lever manipulation is that it will also affect shift lever manipulation. So my question is, will that same arthritis that would drive a cyclist to hydro discs also drive the cyclist to down tube shifters? Both would be easier on the hands and fingers.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

velodog said:


> The funny thing about that arthritis affecting brake lever manipulation is that it will also affect shift lever manipulation. So my question is, will that same arthritis that would drive a cyclist to hydro discs also drive the cyclist to down tube shifters?


Di2 would be a better choice.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tlg said:


> Di2 would be a better choice.


To new age for me.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

velodog said:


> What I'm reading here is that the benefit of the disc brake is the return of the efficiency that you lost going from aluminum rims and brake tracks to carbon rims and brake tracks.
> 
> This has less to do with brake choice and more to do with rim material.


Yep. Plus, I hear that the newest models of carbon rims, from all major brands, have significantly improved braking. I don't know if they match aluminum brake tracks yet, though.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

velodog said:


> What I'm reading here is that the benefit of the disc brake is the return of the efficiency that you lost going from aluminum rims and brake tracks to carbon rims and brake tracks.
> 
> This has less to do with brake choice and more to do with rim material.



I have both alum and CF wheels, the CF wheels brake just as good if not better. Where they fall short is on modulation and feel, especially when they start getting hot on a long descent where you are using them hard. And you have to be a bit more cautious for those times when you are stuck behind a slow car/riders and have to drag them a lot, and that is where disc would be beneficial for most people more than speed ( and I've seen people overheat and blow tires with aluminum wheels too).

As I've noted before, someone I ride with has both rim and disc brake bikes and he rides away from me every time when pushing on our favorite descent with his disc bike, not so much with the rim brake bike. There is definitely a performance advantage, particularly in the fact that they provide more feel and are consistent, which gives the rider more confidence. 

That said, I doubt we will see some big advantage in races as Swifty alludes to, there are just too many variables. The riders on disc still need to be skilled descenders, willing to use that as a strategy, and they would first need to be in a position to be worth taking the risk on the descent. As it stands I don't think those on disc bikes are contenders (?), so they probably have nothing to gain by going for it on the descents. By the time people are winning on discs, everyone will be on them so there will be no way to prove any benefit. Not to mention on closed roads where they can cut and straighten out the corners, they don't need to brake as much.



.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Yep. Plus, I hear that the newest models of carbon rims, from all major brands, have significantly improved braking. I don't know if they match aluminum brake tracks yet, though.


In terms of absolute stopping power, these newer carbon rims and pads can absolutely match the best aluminum. Where carbon lack behind a tad (in the dry) is the modulation. But, you probably know this already.. modulation... is really an interplay of the objective properties of the braking material... and the subjective feeling of pulling the brake levers to the human hands (which means, you need to train for it). Personally to me, modulation during a fast descent is not a big issue between carbon and aluminum, and the reason is because when I brake, it's an all-or-nothing event, meaning.. I brake hard into a corner, standing my bike up, and in this scenario, I pretty use all the available braking power allowed to me, I'm at the limit, so there is not much need for me to "feather" and modulate anything, it's all or nothing.

In the wet, then it's a different story. Aluminum still has the upperhand in term of modulation here. But most cyclists who buy these highend bikes... don't ride these bike in the wet anyway.

But just as Velodog alluded to, this has more to do with using carbon material as rim. Why would you/we want to use carbon rims?? This is another can of worm, but it's certainly tied into the "neccessity of disc". If you're climbing mountians, then use aluminum rims, it's light and provide excellent braking. Why would you use aero carbon wheels in the mountains? so you can look pro?? And if you're using carbon aero rim, that means it should mean you're riding the flat, which means "aero" is a factor to you,.. but... now you throw in the disc. Oh, there goes any aero advantage from the deep carbon wheel. Makes no sense. But hey, consumers love to chase what the marketers throw out there. Gotta have disc on their latest carbon deep dish so they can climb at 8 mph while descending without fearing they'll blow up a tire by dragging their brakes. It's a win for the manufacturers eh.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm not sure if the biggest difference of rim/ disc brakes will be on a fast technical descent, or when someone slams their brakes on in the group to avoid something and they have 20 guys with wet carbon rims and caliper brakes pile into the back of them.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> In terms of absolute stopping power, these newer carbon rims and pads can absolutely match the best aluminum. Where carbon lack behind a tad (in the dry) is the modulation. But, you probably know this already.. modulation... is really an interplay of the objective properties of the braking material... and the subjective feeling of pulling the brake levers to the human hands (which means, you need to train for it). Personally to me, modulation during a fast descent is not a big issue between carbon and aluminum, and the reason is because when I brake, it's an all-or-nothing event, meaning.. I brake hard into a corner, standing my bike up, and in this scenario, I pretty use all the available braking power allowed to me, I'm at the limit, so there is not much need for me to "feather" and modulate anything, it's all or nothing.
> 
> In the wet, then it's a different story. Aluminum still has the upperhand in term of modulation here. But most cyclists who buy these highend bikes... don't ride these bike in the wet anyway.
> 
> But just as Velodog alluded to, this has more to do with using carbon material as rim. Why would you/we want to use carbon rims?? This is another can of worm, but it's certainly tied into the "neccessity of disc". If you're climbing mountians, then use aluminum rims, it's light and provide excellent braking. Why would you use aero carbon wheels in the mountains? so you can look pro?? And if you're using carbon aero rim, that means it should mean you're riding the flat, which means "aero" is a factor to you,.. but... now you throw in the disc. Oh, there goes any aero advantage from the deep carbon wheel. Makes no sense. But hey, consumers love to chase what the marketers throw out there. Gotta have disc on their latest carbon deep dish so they can climb at 8 mph while descending without fearing they'll blow up a tire by dragging their brakes. It's a win for the manufacturers eh.


Good points, well said. I too subscribe to the philosophy of let it roll on the straights, and then brake relatively hard at the last few seconds to adjust speed for a turn. This can be done on any brake system, some easier than others, and that's where rider learns about modulation, as you point out.

One advantage of carbon wheels without brake surfaces is they're lighter out on the rims where rolling resistance becomes an issue. I could believe these rims with the brake discs on the hubs climb like bandits. But maybe not noticeably better than aluminum rims with brake tracks.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Good points, well said. I too subscribe to the philosophy of let it roll on the straights, and then brake relatively hard at the last few seconds to adjust speed for a turn. This can be done on any brake system, some easier than others, and that's where rider learns about modulation, as you point out.
> 
> One advantage of carbon wheels without brake surfaces is they're lighter out on the rims where rolling resistance becomes an issue. I could believe these rims with the brake discs on the hubs climb like bandits. But maybe not noticeably better than aluminum rims with brake tracks.


Shimano has already said that you can't make the disc wheel lighter than what the rim brake wheels already are.

But let's compare the Zipp 30 Course disc vs non-disc wheelsets and the Enve SES 3.4 disc vs non-disc wheelsets:

*Zipp 30 rim*:
Set Weight	1570g
Front Weight: 700g
Rear Weight: 870g

*Zipp 30 disc*:
Set Weight: 1,650g
Front Weight: 770g
Rear Weight: 880g

*Enve SES 3.4 rim*:
Built Weight: 1320g
Rim Weight (front/rear): 367g / 392g

*Enve SES 3.4 disc*:
Built Weight: 1439g
Rim Weight (front/rear): 415g / 414g


Based on the above weights, I don't see how the disc wheel can have a much lighter rim tracks such that they enable a rolling advantage like the pro disc crowd make it out to be. I just don't see it in looking at the number specs.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

So wheel weight for a normal cyclist that rides around, centuries, bike shop rides and such. I build my own wheels and this is my current set up. Actually it's kind of not true as I have 105 hubs but I could not find any weights listed so I put in ultegra hubs. I did make a set just like this set and gave them to my son-in-law for a gift. Anyway his wheels are a little lighter then mine. 

H+ Archtype rim 32h 450
Revo DT spokes, alloy nipples 165
Ultegra Hub 158
_____

803 gm front 

H+ Archtype rim 32h 450
Competition spokes/nipples 215
Ultegra hub rear 335
____

1000gms

total 1803gms

I know on that net we are modulating down the Alps in the rain but back on earth where I live we just go on bike rides. 

I do not know what a disc wheel set would weigh on a normal $1600.00 disc bike. I picked a Cannondale disc bike up at REI for that price and it was pushing 30lbs for the entire bike. Just a guess after hefting the thing off the ground.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> Shimano has already said that you can't make the disc wheel lighter than what the rim brake wheels already are.
> 
> But let's compare the Zipp 30 Course disc vs non-disc wheelsets and the Enve SES 3.4 disc vs non-disc wheelsets:
> 
> ...


Wait a minute. Are those weights switched? How could the rim brake rim be lighter than the disc brake rim? Aren't they counting the disc?

Of course the brake track shaved off the disc brake rim would be added back on with the disc. But man, these new road bike disc brakes sure are getting light looking. Only a matter of time before they'll carry no weight handicap. 

Then again, would rider rather have the weight close to the hubs, or out on the rims? Light rims would climb well, but would they generate enough flywheel effect to descend predictably at 45 mph?

I was shocked riding a friend's bike with really light wheels, that it seemed finicky at speed. It didn't track as well on descents as bikes with slightly stouter wheels. So rotating wheel weight out on the rims is a factor affecting handling, IMO. Another reason to stick with rim brakes.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

You apparently failed to realize that my riding partners went from aluminum rims to carbon with discs to regain their relative speed?

Look, when the religion is eventually replaced with experience, the drivel will be shown for what it is. Until then, Luddites can benefit by getting off their keyboards and renting a hydro disc bike and heading for a nearby technical descent. Consider the possibility that experience is not something that one can pull from their ass. 



velodog said:


> What I'm reading here is that the benefit of the disc brake is the return of the efficiency that you lost going from aluminum rims and brake tracks to carbon rims and brake tracks.
> 
> This has less to do with brake choice and more to do with rim material.


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## pushstart (Feb 5, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> Shimano has already said that you can't make the disc wheel lighter than what the rim brake wheels already are.
> 
> But let's compare the Zipp 30 Course disc vs non-disc wheelsets and the Enve SES 3.4 disc vs non-disc wheelsets:
> 
> ...


Looks like you quoted the Enve tubular rim weights there, rather than the (non-disc) clincher. The 3.4 disc rims are lighter than the rim-brake rims.

From their marketing material:


> ENVE's 3.4 disc specific clincher rims are nearly 50 grams lighter—per rim—than the rim brake version. This weight savings comes from designing the rim specifically for disc brake use.



As for the Zipps, it is not surprising that disc wheelsets weigh more: they have more spokes and heavier hubs.

The Ryde Sprint disc/non-disc rim versions illustrate weight savings for disc. It isn't huge, but it is possible.

Bdop has a disc-only 40mm (18mm int width) clincher rim at a pretty impressive 410g too (which they claim was do to forgoing the brake surface): http://www.bdopcycling.com/DTO-40 DISC-SPECIFIC CARBON RIMS.asp

I don't think anyone is saying that disc brake wheelsets will be lighter, though. Just that you can drop some rotating mass from the rim.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> You apparently failed to realize that my riding partners went from aluminum rims to carbon with discs to regain their relative speed?
> 
> Look, when the religion is eventually replaced with experience, the drivel will be shown for what it is. Until then, Luddites can benefit by getting off their keyboards and renting a hydro disc bike and heading for a nearby technical descent. Consider the possibility that experience is not something that one can pull from their ass.


What you apparently fail to realize is that people pull stuff out of their ass and call it experience all the time.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> The funny thing about that arthritis affecting brake lever manipulation is that it will also affect shift lever manipulation. So my question is, will that same arthritis that would drive a cyclist to hydro discs also drive the cyclist to down tube shifters? Both would be easier on the hands and fingers.


No man, you meant DI2 shifting. :nono: 

Down tube shifting requires skill and dexterity! You're right about down tube shifters being easy, though. Rider can use his whole hand to manipulate the lever along the down tube, steadying himself with the other hand. It's an athletic, full body experience, unknown to "point and click" newbies.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I don't fail to realize it because the smell is pretty overwhelming right now.


velodog said:


> What you apparently fail to realize is that people pull stuff out of their ass and call it experience all the time.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

It's pretty clear that you've never been down a long twisting descent in the rain. 

It's also pretty clear that you should have replaced your shift cables a couple of years ago.

Finally, it appears that you gained your medical education from the same place as your brake enlightenment?

Hey, I suspect that you'd find that you too could shift di2 (the system I made clear I had on my bike). It'd be hard, but I'm betting you could pull it off! Give it a try


velodog said:


> The funny thing about that arthritis affecting brake lever manipulation is that it will also affect shift lever manipulation. So my question is, will that same arthritis that would drive a cyclist to hydro discs also drive the cyclist to down tube shifters? Both would be easier on the hands and fingers.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> I don't fail to realize it because the smell is pretty overwhelming right now.


Now now, boys. This discussion doesn't have to end this way. :nono: Swift and his riding buddies are having fun negotiating technical descents in the Dolomites. You should be so lucky!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Now now, boys. This discussion doesn't have to end this way. :nono: Swift and his riding buddies are having fun negotiating technical descents in the Dolomites. You should be so lucky!



What is a technical descent anyway? I do not live in the Dolomites or anything but the downhills around here are just the regular California kind. I rode the Tierra Bella last week and was on the 100K route. All sorts of bikes out there doing fine going up hill or down hill.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> No man, you meant DI2 shifting. :nono:
> 
> Down tube shifting requires skill and dexterity! You're right about down tube shifters being easy, though. Rider can use his whole hand to manipulate the lever along the down tube, steadying himself with the other hand. It's an athletic, full body experience, unknown to "point and click" newbies.



I rode with downtube shifters until 3 years ago. I had no issues with them. Eventually I took off the campy shifters and put on a simplex system and it had a little spring in there that improved the shifting considerable. I skipped the index shifting. I also skipped 7,8,9 speeds and went from 6speeds to 10 speeds. I am good the way the bike is and will just ride it around for years I hope. 

The fastest average speed ever in the Paris Roubaix was in 64 using downtube shifters, caliper brakes and I guess aluminum wheels. Check out wiki. The guy that just won it moved into 3rd place and bumped a guy from 1948 down to 4th. I wonder what a bike from 1948 would even look like. Anyway the guy in 4th place is awesome. What grit he must have had. Maybe if they get enough motors and hydraulics legalized on bikes somebody can pass up Peter Frost on his old steel bike with 5 speeds and down tube shifters. Or the man of steel from 48.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Not sure where you live in California, but you have some excellent climbs with technical descents in the state (good enough to cause me and several riding friends to drive 1100 miles each way to santa ynez a couple of times each winter). 

John Summerson has a great book _the complete guide to climbing by bike in california_ His book rates both the climbs and the descents. 

In southern california the west side of Figuaroa (just north of Los Olivos) is rated as the "most technical". It's about 3800 vertical of twisting downhill. Some of the hairpins are on 14% gradient. Cross winds add to the fun. 

If you live in northern california, You have mix canyon, gates canyon, castle creek east, cavedale and fort ross road on the list of top 5 

There are many other descents that are highly technical in your state as well. Not sure if any on the tierra bella make the list?


BikeLayne said:


> What is a technical descent anyway? I do not live in the Dolomites or anything but the downhills around here are just the regular California kind. I rode the Tierra Bella last week and was on the 100K route. All sorts of bikes out there doing fine going up hill or down hill.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Not sure where you live in California, but you have some excellent climbs with technical descents in the state (good enough to cause me and several riding friends to drive 1100 miles each way to santa ynez a couple of times each winter).
> 
> John Summerson has a great book _the complete guide to climbing by bike in california_ His book rates both the climbs and the descents.
> 
> ...



I live near Monterey and have ridden pretty much everything in Santa Cruz, Monterey and San Benitio counties plus some bike tours up and down the coast. I have not ridden around Santa Ynez other then I did some coastal tours from Santa Cruz to LA several times. I did not go inland to Santa Ynez. . However my bike frame was made in Santa Ynez by Tim Neenan. I guess my comment was that to me a downhill is just a downhill. I just ride down keeping it safe. I do not try to get downhill PR's as you can get hurt and I am not pretending to be Chris Froome or anything. I am just an average cyclist. 

I have no issues with calipers with cable brakes. I would not have issues with disc brakes either but I do not have a disc bike and am not going to buy one or make one. I am going on a road trip tomorrow but when I get back I am buying a gas torch and was going to make a frame for the fun of it. I was thinking something for L'Eroica next year. So it will have to fit within the rules of the ride. No disc brakes obviously. Probably a fixed gear bike with a flip flop hub. Anyway all the new fancy stuff is out. Disc brakes, hydraulics, electronic shifting, carbon and all of it. That is what will make the event a lot of fun. I think you wind up riding around Santa Ynez which would be great.


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## Natedogz (Aug 25, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> the solution is to make discs out of cardboard, that way when you crash into them they'll just fold. Who the dummy that made discs out of steel?? Duh!
> 
> Oh and the article said 2 teams sent their entire squad on disc bikes,.. and neither of those teams did anything, I don't even think any of their rider was in the top half of the peloton at race end. Pfff so much for the superiority of disc in adverse condition. Meanwhile, the guys that mattered were all on rim brakes. Love it.


Love it.



duriel said:


> If your in the front, your not using your disc brakes. Cause you didn't have any!


Fastest riders and finishers are not using brakes as much, like single speeding...anticipate and use downhill energy to get up the next hill.

Oh wait, I'm sorry all the bicycle manufacturers told me I must have disk brakes on my roadbike or I'll suck and be slow.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, 6000 vertical drop and 18 miles down there is an uphill. Surely, You don't want to use your brakes and scrub any momentum.

A good internet rider can take those hairpins at 45mph (roughly the terminal coasting velocity of a 9% downhill).


Natedogz said:


> Love it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> View attachment 314101
> 
> 
> Yep, 6000 vertical drop and 18 miles down there is an uphill. Surely, You don't want to use your brakes and scrub any momentum.
> ...


Terminal velocity hit me in the face at about 45 mph, yes. The wind would keep me and the bike from going any faster. Don't know how it is with a steep grade, but on most mountain passes built during the days of horse and buggies, the grades aren't usually all that steep. I also experienced the ease at which I and the DeRosa could scribe through the switchbacks descending from the observatory in the Hollywood Hills. Cars would have to slow down or they'd go off the road. i didn't have to slow down all that much. A tweak or two on the brakes and the turn could be scribed through up to 25 mph. I was astounded.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Terminal velocity hit me in the face at about 45 mph, yes. The wind would keep me and the bike from going any faster. Don't know how it is with a steep grade, but on most mountain passes built during the days of horse and buggies, the grades aren't usually all that steep. I also experienced the ease at which I and the DeRosa could scribe through the switchbacks descending from the observatory in the Hollywood Hills. Cars would have to slow down or they'd go off the road. i didn't have to slow down all that much. A tweak or two on the brakes and the turn could be scribed through up to 25 mph. I was astounded.


Say, Fred, what's your Terminal Velocity going uphill on Mount Wilson?


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> View attachment 314101
> 
> 
> Yep, 6000 vertical drop and 18 miles down there is an uphill. Surely, You don't want to use your brakes and scrub any momentum.
> ...


A truly _excellent_ internet rider can take 180-degree turns at 45 mph. However, lesser riders in the group will likely ruin the beautiful cornering by causing a crash, as we have seen described on this very forum!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> Don't know how it is with a steep grade, but on most mountain passes built during the days of horse and buggies, the grades aren't usually all that steep.


Mountain descents are like women. Most riders prefer the ones with steep, tight curves.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> Say, Fred, what's your Terminal Velocity going uphill on Mount Wilson?


That was going down hill, SPIKE. :yesnod: The terminal velocity going up was something else entirely, due to that 44 tooth inner ring!


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> Mountain descents are like women. Most riders prefer the ones with steep, tight curves.


But aren't quite sure what to do with them when they get there...


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> Mountain descents are like women. Most riders prefer the ones with steep, tight curves.


And those switchbacks would bring goose bumps! Might even be better than sex! Gimme disc brakes, please!

How fast do y'all scribe through those switchbacks, anyway? 8 mph? Then the straight legs really increase speed, so you come up on the next switchback really fast and need those brakes, right?


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> And those switchbacks would bring goose bumps! Might even be better than sex! Gimme disc brakes, please!
> 
> How fast do y'all scribe through those switchbacks, anyway? 8 mph? Then the straight legs really increase speed, so you come up on the next switchback really fast and need those brakes, right?


That descent may look like fun, but it sucks because you have to slow down so much for the corners.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

mfdemicco said:


> That descent may look like fun, but it sucks because you have to slow down so much for the corners.


Ah, mon ami. 'Zat is vat disc brakes are for! :ihih:


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> No man, you meant DI2 shifting. :nono:
> 
> Down tube shifting requires skill and dexterity! You're right about down tube shifters being easy, though. Rider can use his whole hand to manipulate the lever along the down tube, steadying himself with the other hand. It's an athletic, full body experience, unknown to "point and click" newbies.


Indexed DT shifting doesn't really require skill and dexterity.

As for shifting options for people with hand issues.... I have a chronic right arm issue from a broken radial head. Often, any twisting motion like the big sweep on Shimano brake levers to move to a larger sprocket or chain ring causes forearm and elbow pain. I also have an irritating tendonitis at the base of my right thumb and radius side of the wrist, probably related to the radius issue.


aaaaaannnnnyyyyyywwwwaaaaayyyyy....

STI right shifting bothers me quite a bit. Sram right shiftng not quite so much. Both are much less painful from the drops than on the hoods (undoubtedly because of wrist position). Downtube index shifting still irritates me at least a little because I mostly use my thumb and index finger. Bar end shifting is virtually pain free. Braking isn't so bad, although I use my front brake 20X more than the rear (before the pain, I "only" used it 15X more than the rear, but it is more now).

If this condition gets worse, I would actually feel that buying electronic shifters and hydro brakes a reasonable, functional upgrade for me.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Camilo said:


> Indexed DT shifting doesn't really require skill and dexterity.
> 
> As for shifting options for people with hand issues.... I have a chronic right arm issue from a broken radial head. Often, any twisting motion like the big sweep on Shimano brake levers to move to a larger sprocket or chain ring causes forearm and elbow pain. I also have an irritating tendonitis at the base of my right thumb and radius side of the wrist, probably related to the radius issue.
> 
> ...


Well, I was referring to friction down tube shifters. :ihih: They never go out of adjustment and rider never misses a shift, unless of course, he loses form.

Can't imagine reaching out to the end of the drops would be more comfortable than reaching down tube shifters or STI. But good point, pushing the brake levers sideways is an awkward movement when you want the bike to go straight ahead. Rider gets used to it, and its done better in the drops, as you say, because the hands are steadying the bike from a point of good leverage behind the shifters, not over the top.

So go with the bar end shifters for a season and work out the tendonitis in your hands? Do stretching or pilates to align what's off? Is that now possible? 

The human body is resilient from injuries and adaptive in response to the demands of work. Alleviate symptoms as much as possible, and the body heals itself. I've done this with a trick right knee. Still have to be careful not to twist while carrying anything, but can jump up bleachers without hurting the right knee. It took years of spinning and strengthening through load bearing walks, and eating fruits and vegetables! Better get training, pardner!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> And those switchbacks would bring goose bumps! Might even be better than sex! Gimme disc brakes, please!
> 
> How fast do y'all scribe through those switchbacks, anyway? 8 mph? Then the straight legs really increase speed, so you come up on the next switchback really fast and need those brakes, right?


You can carry a lot more speed through the left handers. You have to really shut it down on the right turns unless you can see that there is no traffic. This particular pass is seldom closed to autos except for the Giro. Several others are closed for rides like the Sella Ronda and Plose Bike day.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, I've always thought that Formula One would be a lot more fun to race and watch if they'd just get rid of the turns and braking. I guess the problem is that it's hard to find a race track with a 200 mile straight away.

Consider the possibility that the fun factor in hairpins may go up with the ease and precision of your brakes. It skyrockets when you're having a go with Luddites who cling to sh!ty, imprecise brakes that they insist are good (often because they can lock them up).


mfdemicco said:


> That descent may look like fun, but it sucks because you have to slow down so much for the corners.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Well, I was referring to friction down tube shifters. :ihih: They never go out of adjustment and rider never misses a shift, unless of course, he loses form.
> 
> Can't imagine reaching out to the end of the drops would be more comfortable than reaching down tube shifters or STI. But good point, *pushing the brake levers sideways is an awkward movement when you want the bike to go straight ahead.* Rider gets used to it, and its done better in the drops, as you say, because the hands are steadying the bike from a point of good leverage behind the shifters, not over the top.
> 
> ...


Get campy. Problem solved.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Yep, I've always thought that Formula One would be *a lot more fun* to race and watch if they'd just get rid of the turns and braking. I guess the problem is that it's hard to find a race track with a *200 mile straight away*.


It will get boring after about 10 minutes.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

bvber said:


> It will get boring after about 10 minutes.
> View attachment 314167


It's boring now!


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

So on top of Bear Sunday for the GFNY and it starts to rain...dropping down on the decent and hail is pinging off the glasses...brakes aren't quite as responsive...and I found myself thinking..."you know what a guy could really use in a situation like this..."


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

MaxKatt said:


> So on top of Bear Sunday for the GFNY and it starts to rain...dropping down on the decent and hail is pinging off the glasses...brakes aren't quite as responsive...and I found myself thinking..."you know what a guy could really use in a situation like this..."


Rain gear?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

velodog said:


> Rain gear?


I was thinking balls.... or a clean pair of shorts.


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## MaxKatt (May 30, 2015)

velodog said:


> Rain gear?



Exactly. Like one of those Gordon fisherman hats or something.


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## krtassoc (Sep 23, 2005)

No resumption of Disk Brake Test in Pro Peleton this month

Riders' group wants to see changes to disc brakes before they are allowed again | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

"...The pro road racers' association said it will have to see some changes to disc road brakes before it would agree to further testing of the brakes in the pro peloton. A spokeswoman for the riders’ association, Cyclistes Professionnels Asscoces, said it will meet with the UCI on Friday to discuss the situation..."

"...WFSGI secretary general Robbert de Kock told BRAIN recently that he could not confirm that the trial would resume this month.,,"

"...Laura Mora, the press and PR coordinator for the CPA, told BRAIN that the UCI has promised to make the brakes safer.

“We agreed with UCI that before (resuming) disc brake testing they should show us some changes to make them safer for the riders, such as round the edges of the rotors etc. and we would have asked the riders' opinion before we would say yes to the start of the testing,” Mora told BRAIN in an email.

“Now we will see if the UCI will respect the agreement (there are many economical interests behind all this) …,” she said.

The CPA has had reason to be exceptionally vocal about rider safety this season. Besides the brake issue, the group helped organize a delayed race start at a Tour of Belgium stage this weekend, following a motor bike incident in a previous stage that caused serious injury to rider Stig Broeckx. Broeckx remains in a coma with head injuries. Earlier this season, racer Antoine Demoitié died after being struck by a motorbike during the Gent-Wevelgem race..."


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

I'd by far more scared of motos at this point, there's just far too many of them. During one aerial shot during stage 20 of the giro, I counted 10 around Nibali, it's nuts how many are packed in and around the peleton.


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

I have to say like or hate the disc brake the biggest concern for the pro's right now are the motorcycles. I just don't get how this is going on without much bigger blow back.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

krtassoc said:


> No resumption of Disk Brake Test in Pro Peleton this month
> 
> Riders' group wants to see changes to disc brakes before they are allowed again | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
> 
> ...


And secretly the bike companies are loving this, because now they'll have a new product to sell down the line... the safe and racer approved version of disc brakes. And through some marketing voodoo, we'll be told that these new brakes have been designed in close conjunction with pro rider advisors and in addition to being safer they will make you go faster... give it a couple years and the threads will be "old disc vs new disc", not "disc vs rim".


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

jetdog9 said:


> And secretly the bike companies are loving this, because now they'll have a new product to sell down the line... the safe and racer approved version of disc brakes. And through some marketing voodoo, we'll be told that these new brakes have been designed in close conjunction with pro rider advisors and in addition to being safer they will make you go faster... give it a couple years and the threads will be "old disc vs new disc", not "disc vs rim".


More likely "Aero-disc" as the disc brakes will be shaped like aero wheels to guide air around them in partial crosswinds... Next they'll oversize them to the size of wheels to maximize the benefit.... hey wait a minute!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

STRANA said:


> I have to say like or hate the disc brake the biggest concern for the pro's right now are the motorcycles. I just don't get how this is going on without much bigger blow back.


Everyone is afraid of the biker dudes.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

DrSmile said:


> More likely "Aero-disc" as the disc brakes will be shaped like aero wheels to guide air around them in partial crosswinds... Next they'll oversize them to the size of wheels to maximize the benefit.... hey wait a minute!


Now youz just makin' sh!t up


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