# So,is Campagnolo doomed ??



## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Canyon started off the year by placing 12s Campy groups on some of their bikes, now all of them have been replaced with the Sram AXS. Bianchi seems to be the only folks placing OEM Campy stuff so far...
I'm afraid Campagnolo won't be able to sustain itself through this one,what do you think ? 
Loving my 12s Record anyway,not missing my Di2 at all...


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Devastazione said:


> I'm afraid Campagnolo won't be able to sustain itself through this one,what do you think ?


It's definitely going to be rough for them to say the least, and the 12 release isn't helping their cause, as it has VERY limited cassette choices and looks like crap. Aesthetics was always Campy's main draw (specially for me). FWIW, I just installed Shimano R9100 in place of my 2015 Campy Record group. I like Campy's hoods better, but functionally it's superior to Campy. The front derailleur is astonishingly brilliant.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Devastazione said:


> Canyon started off the year by placing 12s Campy groups on some of their bikes, now all of them have been replaced with the Sram AXS. Bianchi seems to be the only folks placing OEM Campy stuff so far...
> I'm afraid Campagnolo won't be able to sustain itself through this one,what do you think ?
> Loving my 12s Record anyway,not missing my Di2 at all...


I am a Campy guy but they have made some incredibly bad business decisions over the years and sadly have reduced themselves to a niche. The only way to come back is to make deals with OEMs and not rely on aftermarket sales.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I rode Shimano for years. I switched over to Campy about 10 years ago. i like the tactile feel of it, but I do think the Shimano front derailer shifting is a lot better (wife has 9100 on her bike). Part of my decision was based on when Shimano went to 11 speeds and changed the free hub body which made my existing wheels useless. They didn't have to do that, Campy didn't do that. 

In the U.S., Campy has been a niche for years. I've never seen a Campy equipped bike on the floor of my LBS. At least not in recent history. Now all the Campy groups have disappeared from the UK sites like Ribble. Its priced ridiculously in the U.S. And the stuff is increasingly looking like Shimano (e.g. the new cranks). They replaced the cool retro looking Athena with the ugly Potenza group. Now those components are going for big bucks if you can find them. What were they thinking?


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

They'll either figure out how to survive...or vulture capitalists will loot their corpse, and they'll end up like Mavic.

Used to love the stuff. Too expensive on this side of the Atlantic to bother anymore, fewer desirable options...and TBH I simply like my Di2 rig much more than my Chorus rig. If/when Shimano goes wireless Di2 (say Di3?), that will replace the 2015 Chorus on that rig.


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

pmf said:


> Now all the Campy groups have disappeared from the UK sites like Ribble.


Really? Fact check:

Wiggle lists 14 Campy groups on their website.

Chain reaction lists 19 Campy groups on their website.

It's true that Ribble doesn't list any Campy groups, but they don't offer many groups in general. They offer 7 SRAM groups (which they will not ship to the U.S.) and 3 Shimano groups (two of which are Tiagra.) Ribble clearly isn't the place to buy groups.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

tomato coupe said:


> Really? Fact check:
> 
> Wiggle lists 14 Campy groups on their website.
> 
> ...


It sure used to be. I guess the place has gone down hill since it changed hands. The last Campy Chorus group I got for a little under $800 (version 2 11-speed). Both of those sites have Campy groups for sale, but there's little flexibility on configuring some of the groups (fact check: check out Chorus on both). I always found Chain Reaction's pricing to be higher than Ribble's. And Wiggle had some customer complaints on this board.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

onyrleftus said:


> Agree Shimano's mechanical shifting in front is hard to beat.
> But, Campy Chorus is all you need and buy out of the UK and ship free to the US and it is relatively inexpensive.


I have several bikes with 11-speed Chorus. I agree that it's all you need in the Campy line up. Record and Super Record are mechanically identical. Its just a lot of money for some carbon and titanium bits and pieces. 

I have to admit though -- Shimano Ultegra has got to be the best value in bike components. It's no wonder Shimano sells a butt load of it.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

pmf said:


> I always found Chain Reaction's pricing to be higher than Ribble's.


Merlin Cycles is an excellent place to buy.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> Merlin Cycles is an excellent place to buy.


Thanks.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Doubt it. Campy has been a niche brand for as long as I can remember, at least for the past 30 yrs. They are here before Canyon, and will likely be afterwards. While groupset/component prices are rising, the cost delta between comparable Campy/Shimano groupsets are shrinking, which might actually benefit Campy, a company that is roughly 1/100th the size of the Japanese giant.

Campy is the Ferrari of the cycling world, Shimano is the Mustang/Camaro/Corvette, and I suspect there isn't much cross-shopping between the two.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

nova_rider said:


> Campy is the Ferrari of the cycling world, Shimano is the Mustang/Camaro/Corvette, and I suspect there isn't much cross-shopping between the two.


No, as Shimano is reliable and well made. I'd say it's the Lexus of components. Hell, the 9100 Shimano shifters cost more than Super Record.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

onyrleftus said:


> When it comes to Campy versus the rest, there will always be difference of opinion. To me, Campy has no peer...mechanical or electric. They are the best.
> 
> Reports of Campy's demise have circulated for years. There is nothing to them past or present...any more than Shimano or Sram could go bankrupt.
> 
> ...


^^^ This. I love the feel and ergonomics of Campy.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

never owned anything made by Campy...

doubt I'd miss it if it goes away.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pmf said:


> I have several bikes with 11-speed Chorus. I agree that it's all you need in the Campy line up. Record and Super Record are mechanically identical. Its just a lot of money for some carbon and titanium bits and pieces.
> 
> I have to admit though -- Shimano Ultegra has got to be the best value in bike components. It's no wonder Shimano sells a butt load of it.


the best valued group is 105, made in Japan just like DA and Ultegra, probably all 3 groups are made in the same factories in Japan. Below 105 then they're made outside of Japan.


----------



## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

As mentioned, Campy has had it's issues, but today's markets are incredibly sensitive to missteps. I think the brand will easily survive, but it might not be in a form that pleases the purists.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Devastazione said:


> Canyon started off the year by placing 12s Campy groups on some of their bikes, now all of them have been replaced with the Sram AXS. Bianchi seems to be the only folks placing OEM Campy stuff so far...
> I'm afraid Campagnolo won't be able to sustain itself through this one,what do you think ?
> Loving my 12s Record anyway,not missing my Di2 at all...


I was a big Campy fan and still have my s-works Tarmac that I built with record and super record (it now hangs on the wall of my den and has not been used in 4 years).

Campy led the way into 11 speed and now into 12 speed. For recreational climbers, 12 speed should eventually be a big improvement. 11 speed was huge for this group of riders and caused a number of folks to convert.

Just as they won market share by leading the way into 11 speed, Campy crapped in their own nest by letting the component world pass them by on disc brakes. It forced a lot of fairly new loyalists to convert back to Shimano and Di2 when the advantage of hydraulic discs became apparent by mid 2015.

Clearly, the Luddite population was positively affected by the Campy disc brake innovation failure, however, this group hated 11 speed for the first 5 years. 12 speed will almost certainly reawaken and energize the haters.

I'm not sure who remains as potential buyers?


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SwiftSolo said:


> I was a big Campy fan and still have my s-works Tarmac that I built with record and super record (it now hangs on the wall of my den and has not been used in 4 years).
> 
> Campy led the way into 11 speed and now into 12 speed. For recreational climbers, 12 speed should eventually be a big improvement. 11 speed was huge for this group of riders and caused a number of folks to convert.
> 
> ...


I attribute it less to that...and more to simple market lockdown (harder to buy/source and increasing price--who wants to order and RMA to the EU for parts??), fleeing OEMs and fewer agreements....and let's be honest, asinine non-intercompatibility of tiers and some very fool ideas. Anyone remember the wonderful "escape" abomination of shifters? How about that wonderful power-torque BB that you needed a proprietary $100 puller to remove the crank to do a BB service? Who could keep straight "powershift", "quickshift", "ultrashift" and so on--just to make artificial tier differentiation and try to upsell consumers?

Campagnolo has made some nice jewelry for bikes....some lemons, sure...but they made it hard to buy their product and know what would work.


It has gotten so bad that now Campagolo has [A], [C], and [D] on their parts stamped to try and not confuse wrenches any more who cannot keep the non-inter-compatibility straight EVEN within the SAME MY....BUT....those stamps only appear on post-2015 parts (BUT in that year only Chorus and up).


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Notvintage said:


> No, as Shimano is reliable and well made. I'd say it's the Lexus of components. Hell, the 9100 Shimano shifters cost more than Super Record.


I am not disputing the construction and functionality of Shimano. I own and services both brands, it is how each brand's design and built philosophy that are polar opposites. Comparing flagship lines like SR/DA doesn't truly demonstrate this, but pick up any mid-low range components like Potenza and Ultegra, look closely how they are both designed, built, and execution of small details, and that what I am referring to.

Lexus is a fine automobile, but after all, is not a Ferrari.


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

I'd hope that Campy is a lot more reliable than a Ferrari??!! The 'garage queen' brand of car.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fer...rome..69i57.2071j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

they've made some mighty pretty groupsets. The last of them being C-Record 

Anyone else remember Campy Syncro? lol . OK they overcame that blunder, I'll grant, but it took a few years and really opened the door for Shimano to penetrate and get established in the peleton (and all other levels of racing in the 80s and early 90s)

My garage queen has Campy on it. 2 years since last ridden. so pretty.


----------



## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> Doesn't seem the same hysteria in Europe where IMO cycling IQ tends to be a bit higher.


lol.



onyrleftus said:


> Others seem blind to these details.


Or maybe just disagree? 

Your posts are ridiculously pompous and condescending.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Marc said:


> I attribute it less to that...and more to simple market lockdown (harder to buy/source and increasing price--who wants to order and RMA to the EU for parts??), fleeing OEMs and fewer agreements....and let's be honest, asinine non-intercompatibility of tiers and some very fool ideas. Anyone remember the wonderful "escape" abomination of shifters? How about that wonderful power-torque BB that you needed a proprietary $100 puller to remove the crank to do a BB service? Who could keep straight "powershift", "quickshift", "ultrashift" and so on--just to make artificial tier differentiation and try to upsell consumers?
> 
> Campagnolo has made some nice jewelry for bikes....some lemons, sure...but they made it hard to buy their product and know what would work.
> 
> ...


There is truth in your observations (the super expensive but required Campy chain tool ).

On the other hand, the failure to get hydraulic discs on the market had to be big in Austria, Northern Italy, and Switzerland where their superiority was apparent to serious recreational riders by the end of the summer of 2014. Four years late in the Alps / Dolomites and the home of Campy was just too much.

I hope I am wrong and that they keep it together enough to build marrket share.

Buying components in EU is a small issue compared to the cost savings.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Marc said:


> How about that wonderful power-torque BB that you needed a proprietary $100 puller to remove the crank to do a BB service?


And let's not also forget the +$200 dollar tool to put a stupid pin in their chain. That is hilarious, as no one but Campy even uses a pin. Instead of silly 12 group they should have released a SR pedal and a chain that uses a link (it is the 21st century after all). I think if not for their excellent wheels they would be gone.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

onyrleftus said:


> I don't want to own Sram.


We so agree on that point. I'd rather not ride that ride a bike with SCAM on it. Hideous bit of kit.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

onyrleftus said:


> For the decades I have owned Campy, I never owned a Campy specific chain tool. I rarely ride Campy chains in fact and when I do, I use a master link.. I even bought a Bianchi from Italy several years ago with Campy groupset from the factory and it came with a KMC chain on it with Missing (master) link.
> 
> Campy cranks are also a bit precarious. UltaTorque needs a special bearing installation tool which I own...but their PowerTorque cranks are/were crap and needed other proprietary tools. Their UltraTorque cranks are far and away the best but they don't have the versatility of Shimano cranks I prefer.


Sometimes, I wonder if Campy even listens to customer criticism. Their desire to force us to use specialty tools to install chains and cranks (PowerTap) despite negative user feedback makes no sense. If they had done this once and learned their lesson that would be one thing but they've done it repeatedly. The only folks that like it are the KMC folks selling all those master links!


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SwiftSolo said:


> There is truth in your observations (the super expensive but required Campy chain tool ).
> 
> On the other hand, the failure to get hydraulic discs on the market had to be big in Austria, Northern Italy, and Switzerland where their superiority was apparent to serious recreational riders by the end of the summer of 2014. Four years late in the Alps / Dolomites and the home of Campy was just too much.
> 
> ...


I honestly suspect Campag holding back on disc brakes was in large part them hoping ISO rotor mounting would put CenterLock down. Also waiting to see if flat-mount or post-mount would win...in the end Campagnolo acquiesced and went Centerlock (and probably pays Shimano licensing to use CL), which is funny given the final AFS rotor design looks like an ISO rotor with a CL adapter. Not to make things more convenient--as their calipers are proprietary and size specific, and their rotors are a different width spec than anyone else's also.


In the end at least they went with mineral oil instead of DOT.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> We so agree on that point. I'd rather not ride that ride a bike with SCAM on it. Hideous bit of kit.


You crack me up. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm wondering why you have yours...I'll bet you have virtually zero experience of your own about SRAM.


----------



## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I bought a new, fairly high-end gravel bike that came equipped with SRAM Force 1x. I really tried hard to love it, but I just couldn't. After a season of riding it, I pulled it off and the bike now has Ultegra 6800 Di2 on it (which I do love dearly).

As far as why I don't like SRAM? This is all very subjective and anecdotal... just so we are clear...

*- I didn't like the feel of the levers and hoods. I tried, I really did. They just felt plastic'y and cheap.
*- The general quality just didn't feel good. Shifting, braking, none of it. For lack of a better way to express it, it felt imprecise. From what I understand, I was lucky that I didn't have to deal with the FD. I have heard stories.
*- DOT Fluid? I do all my own wrenching, and I'd just prefer not to deal with that stuff..
*- Subjectively, I don't care for the aesthetics of SRAM components. None of it, from the chainrings, and shifters, to the derailleurs. Just not my cup of tea.
*- Lastly, and this may not be true any more. Some of my mechanic friends told me that there was a fairly high return rate on SRAM components. They also said that SRAM was pretty good about honoring warranties, but that the gear had a relatively high failure rate compared to Shimano stuff.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Campagnolo hasn't been a factor in the OEM market for some time. This is not a new phenomenon. They'll always be less relevant than Shimano and SRAM for this very reason. Group sets have a higher price point too which may be a factor. They will mostly live on custom builds and people swapping out old group sets. 

of course they make good stuff but it will be harder and harder to fund r&d etc when they're acting more like a niche player. wouldn't surprise me if they get acquired or bought out at some point


----------



## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

I hope not.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

onyrleftus said:


> Cx,
> Sounds like you like Sram. At your shop, does Etap have a good rep? Find any sleepy rear derailleurs? Prefer E-tap to Di2?
> 
> Thanks


I do but that doesn't have anything to do w/ my last post. I think all of the big 3 put out product that works great. I think Campy electronic is needlessly over complicated. Campy mechanical works just fine. 
I've worked w/ SRAM since it was pre-release/prototype. I've had mechanical SRAM on my personal bikes since '07. We sell a decent amount of etap at the shop and I've seen 1 rear derailleur that didn't shift well. If I were going to put an electronic group on my bike I'd go SRAM for sure. I like Di2 but it seems like Shimano have done so many updates and 'improvements' that they've actually created some problems. I think that generally it works really well but after working w/ wireless components I don't really like things being wired. It creates extra work for me on a regular basis when someone damages or accidentally undoes a wire and I have to pull parts off a bike to get at a junction box. I've got a Di1 bike in right now that has even got Shimano baffled as to why it won't work. I had one of their techs try a bunch of stuff via remote connection and he had no idea what was wrong. With SRAM if something doesn't work you replace it. No mystery. Their CS has always been great and it has actually forced Shimano to improve theirs.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> And let's not also forget the +$200 dollar tool to put a stupid pin in their chain. That is hilarious, as no one but Campy even uses a pin. Instead of silly 12 group they should have released a SR pedal and a chain that uses a link (it is the 21st century after all). I think if not for their excellent wheels they would be gone.


I recently bought an 11-speed Dura Ace chain for my wife's bike. It came with a pin.

There are alternative to the $200 Campy tool, like the Lezyne tool for around $35. 

But why on earth would you use anything but a master link?


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

pmf said:


> I recently bought an 11-speed Dura Ace chain for my wife's bike. It came with a pin.
> 
> There are alternative to the $200 Campy tool, like the Lezyne tool for around $35.
> 
> *But why on earth would you use anything but a master link?*


There are people out there, today, who adhere to pinning a chain as the strongest method of joining and it therefore always being preferable.

Many out there commit the high-sin of re-using supposedly "non-reusable" masterlinks in cleaning a chain for example....ZOMFG I'm GOING TO DIE. Similar religion.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

onyrleftus said:


> Thanks for your overview. Its valuable to members here because you see more than the average consumer. Everybody lauds Sram's customer service. Never heard it diss'ed in fact.
> 
> I think the shifting protocol for E-tap is very clever and intuitive. Wasn't sure about the reliability. Some have had no problems and others not so lucky but I am sure the same applies to Di2 like you reference and also Campy EPS. Head wrench at my local shop says he prefer Di2 to Etap based upon reliability....but I am sure opinions vary based upon experience.
> 
> ...


I also think the way that Campy has designed their shifters makes a LOT of sense. Totally separating the 2 functions was a great idea. The Campy levers are definitely very comfortable. 
I currently have mechanical Red22 on my cross/gravel bike, with canti brakes. If I were to get another bike it would be Red etap/hydro for sure.


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

IIRC, the German Tour magazine did some in-depth testing of the major component manufacturers about a decade ago and Campy cassette cogs had the highest Rockwell hardness.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

pmf said:


> I recently bought an 11-speed Dura Ace chain for my wife's bike. It came with a pin.


Must have been the 9000 version not 9100. New version comes with Shimano's new master link.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Bremerradkurier said:


> IIRC, the German Tour magazine did some in-depth testing of the major component manufacturers about a decade ago and Campy cassette cogs had the highest Rockwell hardness.


They ought to for what they charge for those things.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

"The news of my death is highly exaggerated"

In the US "nobody" understands the quintessial Italian family business model. I would not be surprised if Campag outlasts Shimano and especially SRAM.


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

kbwh said:


> "The news of my death is highly exaggerated"
> 
> In the US "nobody" understands the quintessial Italian family business model. I would not be surprised if Campag outlasts Shimano and especially SRAM.



Shimano would still have their angling branch-apparently electronics are a thing there too.

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/shimano-beastmaster-electric-reel?hvarAID=shopping_googleproductextensions&affcode_c=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgPikoObN4AIVybztCh10sgDcEAQYASABEgKFBPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I have always admired Campy.
All of my bikes back in early 80's had Campy Nuovo Record.
My pet cat was named - Campy.
On my current bike I proudly put Campy Chorus 11 speed on it and was sorely disappointed.
It never shifted right despite having been worked on by a master mechanic.
I ended up replacing it with SRAM which works perfectly. So yes Campy is toast as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

jnbrown said:


> I have always admired Campy.
> All of my bikes back in early 80's had Campy Nuovo Record.
> My pet cat was named - Campy.
> On my current bike I proudly put Campy Chorus 11 speed on it and was sorely disappointed.
> ...


Yeah, me too.

I went with the best in '82, Campy Super Record, and never looked back. 10 years ago stuck a Deore rear derailleur on the commuter because the limit screws on the Campy replacement, name escapes me, would't narrow down to the ancient 6 speed freewheel spread. The "Record" steel BB and headset, crank, and wheel hubs, are original, 75K miles and running. 

All bearings feel sooo smooth, the sensual hallmark that Shimano misses. Campy engineers know what bike riding is all about, what Grant Petersen calls, "manual bikes." Campy designs the lever hoods to fit the hand comfortably and intentionally leaves audible clicks in, so rider knows the damn thing is shifting. Shimano wants to impress the rider by taking this manual feel away. What fun is that?


----------



## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

kbwh said:


> "The news of my death is highly exaggerated"
> 
> In the US "nobody" understands the quintessial Italian family business model. I would not be surprised if Campag outlasts Shimano and especially SRAM.


Quintessential my @ss. I'm italian,I live in Italy and I work in the family business,statements like that may have been true 50 years ago,nowadays you have to be just marketing marketing marketing sell sell sell our you're going to die. Uh,and all that thanks to globalization...:mad2:


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

seems i get more of a sense around campagnolo wheels than their group sets lately. and while i still see fans of the group sets , that never seems to extend to their electronic group sets where it seems to be shimano vs sram. i'll count the wheels as a success though. i hear more excitement about boras than enve and shimano offerings these days.

i can't imagine solving the oem problem unless they totally rework their business model which means dropping the price point, moving production to asia and possibly bringing in an outside investor. and that has risks too, like alienating their traditional base


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Most people simply buy a complete group set through their local bike shop



onyrleftus said:


> To me, Campy is cheap. I often read about how expensive Campy is.
> I just built a bike with Campy and Shimano. I mix groupsets because I don't believe that you should ride the same brand of saddle or stem that you do tires. I know an extreme example to make a point.
> 
> You don't have to match groupsets either. With Campy you don't have to ride 'all Chorus' for example...or all Record. Many just don't understand.
> ...


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

onyrleftus said:


> To me, Campy is cheap.
> Pricing for my new build:
> Pricing for my new build:
> Chorus 11 speed Shifters 2018 off ebay, new in a box 'with Campy cableset: $268
> ...


About 20 seconds of searching indicates you are wrong.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-U...MIjIuzlrjP4AIVEF8NCh2g3AqTEAQYASABEgJvvvD_BwE

https://www.wiggle.com/shimano-ultegra-6800-rear-derailleur-1/

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/...MIn5SImbnP4AIVAeDICh03lgGmEAQYAiABEgLmpfD_BwE


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Most people simply buy a complete group set through their local bike shop


I dont know if this is true or not but I would never buy a Campy group from my LBS. The cost compared to mail order (from the UK) is staggeringly high


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

onyrleftus said:


> No...my build is closer to DA. Your shifter price didn't include cableset which is about the same between Campy and Shimano...about 40 bux.
> 
> 
> 
> Your post reflects 20 seconds of thinking...lol.


And yours doesn't.

129 + 40 = 169 and that is 99 less than 268.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Most people simply buy a complete group set through their local bike shop


I'd venture to guess that people who don't buy their bikes off the rack find their groups someplace on the internet. Over the past decade, I've bought half a dozen Campy and Shimano groups from outfits in the UK. Their prices are easily half what my LBS could offer.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

DaveG said:


> I dont know if this is true or not but I would never buy a Campy group from my LBS. The cost compared to mail order (from the UK) is staggeringly high


A mechanic at my LBS said to me 'you don't want to buy a Campy group from us. You can probably find it cheaper than what we can buy it for'.


----------



## onyrleftus (Feb 12, 2019)

pmf said:


> I'd venture to guess that people who don't buy their bikes off the rack find their groups someplace on the internet. Over the past decade, I've bought half a dozen Campy and Shimano groups from outfits in the UK. Their prices are easily half what my LBS could offer.


A lot of people interested enough to frequent a bike forum will, but would say most that are into the sport including all the women riders I know unless coached by men in their lives, will buy off the rack.

Its just like computers. Most won't build their own computer but I will.


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

pmf said:


> A mechanic at my LBS said to me 'you don't want to buy a Campy group from us. You can probably find it cheaper than what we can buy it for'.


Here in the US, there are a lot of empty calories in groupset costs from national and regional distributors.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

pmf said:


> I'd venture to guess that people who don't buy their bikes off the rack find their groups someplace on the internet. Over the past decade, I've bought half a dozen Campy and Shimano groups from outfits in the UK. Their prices are easily half what my LBS could offer.


I remember reading an interview not long ago with someone from Campy and he was saying that in Europe its more common to buy a frame and have it built up. That is the model Campy was basing their sales approach on. He also said that this is changing and that they need to get onto OEMs bikes. I haven't seen that happening but at least they see the issue. I imagine for most people in the US, they walk into the shop and buy whatever Trek or Spez bike the store is forced to sell and never consider a custom build


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

pmf said:


> A mechanic at my LBS said to me 'you don't want to buy a Campy group from us. You can probably find it cheaper than what we can buy it for'.


That isn't unique to Campagnolo. Just about all groups other than SRAM can be had cheaper that the shop's supplier cost....SRAM being the exception because of the MAP=MSRP requirement--so it is just as expensive everywhere.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

DaveG said:


> I remember reading an interview not long ago with someone from Campy and he was saying that in Europe its more common to buy a frame and have it built up. That is the model Campy was basing their sales approach on. He also said that this is changing and that they need to get onto OEMs bikes. I haven't seen that happening but at least they see the issue. I imagine for most people in the US, they walk into the shop and buy whatever Trek or Spez bike the store is forced to sell and never consider a custom build


Things might have changed since the last time I was in Italy at a bike shop -- almost 15 years ago -- but I visited a few shops and was struck by the lack of inventory. A big shop in Rome had maybe 10 road bikes on the floor, and that was it. The shop out in Tuscany that supported the tour I went on had no road bikes on the floor. I ended up buying a frame from them. The guy running the shop took all kinds of measurements and I picked out what paint job I wanted. It was a really old school looking place, complete with old guys sitting in the back room, walls covered with ancient cogs, drinking coffee. I hope that place is still there.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

DaveG said:


> I remember reading an interview not long ago with someone from Campy and he was saying that in Europe its more common to buy a frame and have it built up. That is the model Campy was basing their sales approach on. He also said that this is changing and that they need to get onto OEMs bikes. I haven't seen that happening but at least they see the issue. I imagine for most people in the US, they walk into the shop and buy whatever Trek or Spez bike the store is forced to sell and never consider a custom build


Just anecdote but:

3 of the 4 bikes I've had since I started getting into cycling were purchases of a frame only then components.

And now that I think of it the majority of the 20 or so guys that I know well enough to say mostly buy frames only also.

I would have to guess the casual European cyclist does just walk into a shop and buy whatever they have. I've been to Italy many times and don't see a lot of custom bikes or bikes I think can be purchased as frame only under Joe Blow out for a casual ride.

I don't think it's really an American/European difference per se. More like a serious cyclist vs casual cyclist difference. 

At one time that difference was one in the same because Europe was full of serious cyclists and for all practical purposes none in the US. That's definitely less the case now though.


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> No...my build is closer to DA.


You are delusional if you think your Potenza / Chorus combo is the equivalent of Dura-Ace.

Why is it that Campy fanatics always come out looking a bit irrational in Campy vs. Shimano threads?


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

tomato coupe said:


> Why is it that Campy fanatics always come out looking a bit irrational in Campy vs. Shimano threads?


I don't know but it is good entertainment.

I can get a full Chorus groupset out of the back of a van in Romania for about the same as you paid for DA in a Manhattan bike shop so obviously you are wrong if you think Campy is more expensive


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> All bearings feel sooo smooth, the sensual hallmark that Shimano misses.


You've obviously not spun a pair of Dura-Ace 9000/9100 pedals.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

tomato coupe said:


> You are delusional if you think your Potenza / Chorus combo is the equivalent of Dura-Ace.
> 
> Why is it that Campy fanatics always come out looking a bit irrational in Campy vs. Shimano threads?


LOL. . . Tomato jumps the shark on that one! Potenza/Chorus = Dura Ace?? Dude needs remedial math. Only SR = Dura Ace. And as mentioned before Dura-Ace 9100 shifters cost more than SR (at least at Merlin Cycles).


----------



## onyrleftus (Feb 12, 2019)

tomato coupe said:


> You are delusional if you think your Potenza / Chorus combo is the equivalent of Dura-Ace.
> 
> Why is it that Campy fanatics always come out looking a bit irrational in Campy vs. Shimano threads?


My combo is much better than DA. I rode DA9000 for a year a couple of summers ago. I am fortunate to own different bikes. My '09 Centaur 10s Ultrashift bike is better than DA. 

If you knew anything about cycling, difference between groupset levels within the same brand in a blind test almost doesn't exist. Take new Shimano 11s 105 versus DA. You couldn't tell in a blind test. Much better cyclists than you can't tell or have to be hyper focused on it. Same with Campy. Potenza versus SuperRecord. Nobody here could tell...other than with Potentza you can't multiple shift in both directions...which is the point of Chorus shifters. DA does NOT have this capability...both directions.

Sorry to set you straight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6si2XSCbdGQ&t=903s


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> If you knew anything about cycling, difference between groupset levels within the same brand in a blind test almost doesn't exist. Take new Shimano 11s 105 versus DA. You couldn't tell in a blind test.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6si2XSCbdGQ&t=903s


Um ... both riders were able to tell the difference between 105 and Dura-Ace in the blind test in the linked video.


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> Potenza is much better than DA.


Incredible. You've gone from Potenza / Chorus combo is "closer to Dura-Ace", to "Potenza is much better than Dura-Ace."


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> No Centaur UltaShift...a rarity...is better than modern DA. Truthfully, Campy is just better. Yes it is quite incredible.
> 
> Keep in mind, this is personal opinion. Many are happy on Shimano and Sram. We each have our favorites. Some guys don't like the Campy thumb shift for example. Some guys say they struggle shifting it from the drops. I don't have this problem because I have hands like a great artist or concert pianist and why I deserve the best from the great maestro Campagnolo.


As asked earlier, why is it that Campy fanatics always come out looking (more than) a bit irrational in Campy vs. Shimano threads?


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

onyrleftus said:


> . . . you can't multiple shift in both directions...which is the point of Chorus shifters. DA does NOT have this capability...both directions.


Peter Sagan won the 2018 Paris Roubaix on DA mechanical, so apparently the lack of multi-shift didn't hold him back LOL. Just sayin.'


----------



## Backdash (Jan 26, 2016)

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/general-cycling-discussion/campy-goes-12-speed-364269.html
Post #22
"I never run Campy chains and a little secret is they work perfectly with an inexpensive KMC missing link which Campy doesn't support. Years back I bought a Campy equipped Bianchi from the factory that came with a KMC chain and Missing link...Bianchi didn't even spec the bike with a Campy chain.."

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/g...o-campagnolo-doomed-367340-2.html#post5297415
Post #8
"I rarely ride Campy chains in fact and when I do, I use a master link.. I even bought a Bianchi from Italy several years ago with Campy groupset from the factory and it came with a KMC chain on it with Missing (master) link"


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> Its kinda like this...
> Campy owners are discriminating and passionate and why they take a more esoteric path, and Shimano owners are more like lemmings or sheep who don't have the talent to see talent in others.


Campy loyalists tend to be older cyclists that remember when Campy was used by all the pros. They're not more discriminating; if anything, they are living in the past.


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

onyrleftus said:


> Campy is more artful.


Now I understand. Campy isn't better because it functions better, it's better because it's more artful. Potenza is more _artful_ than Dura-Ace.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

onyrleftus said:


> I personally think its more about culture. In Europe, Campy is more appreciated.
> Campy is more artful. Its reflects its Italian heritage and long lineage.
> 
> You know anything about motorcycles TC? Its like comparing supersport motorcycles. Honda versus Ducati. Ducatis are generally perceived as more sensual...greater feast for the senses.
> ...


Why do you go on and on about Campy and Italian flair and artistics and creativity? and go to great extent to persuade others to buy into your self-perceived highly value opinion but of course you would pretend it's just your (casual) opinion? Why? Is it becuause it will make you feel better or validate your opinion more if others were to agree with all you have to proselytize? Get a grip dude, we get it, you're the ultimate Campy (or is it Campag?) fanboy! Christ you joined RBR in Feb 2019, don't think you're the first and only one who has seen this Shimano vs Campy thing.

for the record I don't think campy is doomed. With fanboys like you, there's always some niched pickins to be had. In the meantime, lots of pros are doing ok on Shimano.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

onyrleftus said:


> Its kinda like this...
> Campy owners are discriminating and passionate and why they take a more esoteric path, and Shimano owners are more like lemmings or sheep who don't have the talent to see talent in others. *Sound familiar?* You've never been told that before have you TC? Of course you have. Why you disparage Campy loyalists.


Yes, it all sounds very familiar. That's why he asked the question as to why so many Campy fanatics seem so irrational on these threads.

You can like what you like without being pompous by the way. I just don't get it. Does being pompous make you enjoy your bike more or something?
Putting the choice of others down to elevate your own? Cliche but you seem a textbook case.


----------



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

onyrleftus said:


> Jay, your perception of pomposity is misplaced. It is hyperbole. Over the top rhetoric to elicit a reaction. False bravado. Make more sense now? Comedy. I am the Howard Stern of bike wizards. You should love me but quite sure many don't get my schtick. Not everybody loves Stern.


Well hat's off if it's been a parody act. AKA troll in the context of internet posting. I'll give credit where it's deu though. You do a great pompous arse impression.


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

onyrleftus said:


> The Italians have a flair. The Japanese, not so much.


kinda like my Acura and Dura-Ace.

you can keep your Fiat and Campy...


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

It sounds like you are describing tnumb buttons on Campy? I haven’t ridden it, so I’m not in the know... But I have them on low end Shimano and I can’t imagine wanting to ride that set up on purpose? Maybe I’m wrong... I must be. They do shift definitely. Plunk. I don’t hate it in that regard. But my double tap is so vastly superior it’s light years, at least to me. I can adjust the shifter lever position. I can also hold the shifter lever comfortably on my pointer finger pad, it has a super nice ergonomic shape, and you can rapid shift through gears in any hand position. It is as easy to shift in the drops as it is on the hoods. The lever will pull forward with almost no effort and the double tap system is fast and certain. I like fixed brakes and I hate the long throw of my Shimano brake levers when shifting. I ride a lot of short, sharp grades and the comfortable quick shifting, regardless of hand position, double tap is a game changer.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Notvintage said:


> You've obviously not spun a pair of Dura-Ace 9000/9100 pedals.


Couldn't be any better than Campy Super Record rat traps, still spinning great after 20 years. Pedal bearings rotating at 70-90 rpm aren't going to wear out near as fast as wheel hubs, so I'm not impressed. . Loaded up, cheap MKS rat traps feel just as smooth as Campy. So when the cages wore down or took one too many crashes, I switched over. Never trashed a pedal spindle. The crank arm usually bends first, IME.

Anyway, the Record BB spins free, largely because it has no teflon washers to keep out water. Campy BBs have reverse rifling where those seals would be, which literally pumps water out when rotating, so seals aren't necessary. The only contact between spindle and races is through the ball bearings. 

Try spinning a Shimano crank! No comparison! . Cranks take lots of torsional stress, so it makes a difference there. Not so much in the pedals, no?


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

onyrleftus said:


> Remember the X1/9?  Truthfully, Campy is remarkably reliable. And yes, I admit some element of surprise to that but its true.
> 
> Besides, its settled. Simon's personal training bike his last year as a pro. Campy Chorus 11s. Simon knows cycling.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGFWw-0EfxI


I'm the first to agree that Campy has a certain je ne sais quoi and I hope that they survive and thrive.

On the other hand you've made my point with Simon's bike. I have exactly the same Tarmac S-works SL 3, same color/paint scheme, only with Campy record and super record 11 components. It was retired to my den wall 5 years ago when Campy stuck their heads in their arse and failed to produce a disc brake groupo, forcing me and many others to change back to Shimano. Do understand that they won many of us over in the first place by being the first to the party with 11 speed--a big step forward to fans of steep, sustained, climbing and descending.

The issue was made worse because they are headquartered where disc brakes make/made more sense than 98% of the remainder of the world (near the southern foot of the Dolomites). They should have been the first--not the last. 

Perhaps someday they'll give me and the other dissappointed recreational climber/descenders a reason to reconsider and give them another go.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tomato coupe said:


> Why is it that Campy fanatics always come out looking a bit irrational in Campy vs. Shimano threads?


Because Campy is always a cut above Shimano?


----------



## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Spider, please


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

SwiftSolo said:


> I'm the first to agree that Campy has a certain *je ne sais quoi* and I hope that they survive and thrive.
> 
> ...


Campagnolo is Italian; it should be "a certain *non so cosa*".....


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Because Campy is always a cut above Shimano?


I doubt you can find one professional review stating Campy is functionally better than Shimano. You can find ones that flat out state Dura Ace 9100 is the best cable actuated system you can buy.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Notvintage said:


> I doubt you can find one professional review stating Campy is functionally better than Shimano. You can find ones that flat out state Dura Ace 9100 is the best cable actuated system you can buy.


^This^ The rave Campy reviews are generally from normal folks that pay for their parts. Unless it's truly awful most people will say what they paid for is the best. 





Especially Campy owners.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Oxtox said:


> never owned anything made by Campy...
> 
> doubt I'd miss it if it goes away.


Campy seems to be a religion. Once upon a time, there was a saying that Campy wears in, Shimano wears out and SRAM breaks. Supposedly, Campy was once a top product.

Nowadays, Campy's quality is no better than Shimano. However, the religion lives on.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

_Plus ça change..._


----------



## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

I find it interesting waspinator hasn't posted for 3 weeks and onyrleftus started posting 2 weeks ago... same argumentative posts...hmm.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> I do but that doesn't have anything to do w/ my last post. I think all of the big 3 put out product that works great. I think Campy electronic is needlessly over complicated. Campy mechanical works just fine.
> I've worked w/ SRAM since it was pre-release/prototype. I've had mechanical SRAM on my personal bikes since '07. We sell a decent amount of etap at the shop and I've seen 1 rear derailleur that didn't shift well. If I were going to put an electronic group on my bike I'd go SRAM for sure. I like Di2 but it seems like Shimano have done so many updates and 'improvements' that they've actually created some problems. I think that generally it works really well but after working w/ wireless components I don't really like things being wired. It creates extra work for me on a regular basis when someone damages or accidentally undoes a wire and I have to pull parts off a bike to get at a junction box. I've got a Di1 bike in right now that has even got Shimano baffled as to why it won't work. I had one of their techs try a bunch of stuff via remote connection and he had no idea what was wrong. With SRAM if something doesn't work you replace it. No mystery. Their CS has always been great and it has actually forced Shimano to improve theirs.


Interesting. While I don't have any non-mechanical shift bikes, I have 2 mountain bikes where one has Shimano Deore with SRAM Attack shifters, the other has SRAM X7. The shifting on the X7 bike is much better. 

I've never been dissatisfied with Shimano road systems except for that nuisance of having to change the rear shifter cable every 2K miles or so. Can't believe Shimano hasn't solved this problem even though it has existed for 3 generations. 5800/6800 shift flawlessly until they eat the cables.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

nova_rider said:


> Lexus is a fine automobile, but after all, is not a Ferrari.


You are correct. A Ferrari costs at least 10x as much as a Lexus and is about half as reliable. But then if you can afford a Ferrari, you really don't care about reliability and repair costs, do you?


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

ngl said:


> I find it interesting waspinator hasn't posted for 3 weeks and onyrleftus started posting 2 weeks ago... same argumentative posts...hmm.


onyrleftus is becoming like the guy who was pissed there are no titanium bikes in the professional peloton. Lol.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ngl said:


> I find it interesting waspinator hasn't posted for 3 weeks and onyrleftus started posting 2 weeks ago... same argumentative posts...hmm.


He seems more like an 11spd retread to me...


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> He seems more like an 11spd retread to me...


Looks like he was banned after only 2 posts. He may be a fanboy without substance, but unless the mods deleted something we didn't see, it doesn't look like anything that was ban worthy.


----------



## zyzbot (Feb 3, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Looks like he was banned after only 2 posts. He may be a fanboy without substance, but unless the mods deleted something we didn't see, it doesn't look like anything that was ban worthy.


A lot of his posts were deleted.


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Lombard said:


> Looks like he was banned after only 2 posts. He may be a fanboy without substance, but unless the mods deleted something we didn't see, it doesn't look like anything that was ban worthy.


Yes. Posts not pertaining to the topic were deleted by mods. And yes, he was banned because he's the same guy banned twice before using different usernames. 

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


----------



## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok, now that the troll's gone, let's go back to the topic 

I don't think Campagnolo is doomed but I do think they will at some point leave the groupset game and concentrate on their wheels. As far as I know their wheel business is already responsible for ~60% of their revenues.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Scratch 40% of their revenue?


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Mackers said:


> Ok, now that the troll's gone, let's go back to the topic
> 
> I don't think Campagnolo is doomed but I do think they will at some point leave the groupset game and concentrate on their wheels. As far as I know their wheel business is already responsible for ~60% of their revenues.


Dig it. :thumbsup:

Campy built wheels for Ferrari and Lamborghini in the early days, so there's a reputation to uphold. A friend said his Zonda's are awesome under power. 

Don't know who else has ridden Campy wheels, but that seems like a fluid market. :yesnod:


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Notvintage said:


> I doubt you can find one professional review stating Campy is functionally better than Shimano. You can find ones that flat out state Dura Ace 9100 is the best cable actuated system you can buy.


Just joking. 

Shimano has come a long way since appearing as a clone of Campy Record back in the late '70s. They took the lead in click shifting; Campy kept its nose up; synchro-shift was a disaster; Delta brakes sucked, while Shimano was riding high. Too bad. 

The driving spirit of so many companies lasts about as long as the founder lives. Once it passes down to the next generation, they put their marketing strategies and personalities into it. Campy seems to have done a great job carrying on tradition, but the field has expanded. 

Campy rose to dominance in the mechanical age before CAD, mastering the materials of the day into the ride of your dreams. Now Shimano and Sram can do it, too, offering their aesthetics and performance philosophies, so there are 3 valid choices. 

A book I read back in the early '80s made a point that if you wanted to race, you'd choose Campy. Until Dura Ace came up, Campy Nuovo and Super Record were so far above the others, it dominated the field like Eddy Merckx. Suntour derailleurs, brakes, hubs, Simplex, Zeus knockoffs of Nuovo Record, were "recreational." The derailleurs developed play after a couple of years and bent out of alignment. The short cage Super Record derailleur friction shifted faster than the rest and stayed stiff and aligned, like derailleurs today.


----------



## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Dig it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Campy built wheels for Ferrari and Lamborghini in the early days, so there's a reputation to uphold. A friend said his Zonda's are awesome under power.
> 
> Don't know who else has ridden Campy wheels, but that seems like a fluid market. :yesnod:


I do,I ride Fulcrums, we all know are just some rebadged campy wheels. Fantastic wheels,much better than my Rovals. But better than my Dura Aces ? Definitely not. And again,as much as I love my 12s Campagnolo Record this will be my first and last time with Campagnolo.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Just joking.
> 
> Shimano has come a long way since appearing as a clone of Campy Record back in the late '70s. *They took the lead in click shifting*; Campy kept its nose up; synchro-shift was a disaster; Delta brakes sucked, while Shimano was riding high. Too bad.
> 
> ...


From Sunset for SunTour by Frank Berto

_Shimano's development of SIS is an interesting story. A year after the Aero AX fiasco, Shimano commissioned a major survey of the U.S. adult bicycle market. The survey concluded that the market had changed from hard core racing and touring enthusiasts to yuppies. The yuppies wanted components that looked and performed like professional racing equipment but were easier to use. This was the same market shift led to products like fully automatic 35mm cameras. 

SIS was a major engineering research project. It was much more that shift levers with detents. The key innovation was the SIS Dura-Ace 7400 rear derailleur. SunTour's slant parallelogram patent had expired. The Shimano's SIS rear derailleurs combined the two spring-loaded pivots, developed by Simplex in the 1940s, with SunTour's 1964 horizontal slant parallelogram. It was the first computer-designed rear derailleur. By optimizing cage dimensions and spring tensions, the design provided a nearly constant chain gap, which was the key to reliable indexed shifting. Shimano developed a factor, Rideable Range of Adjustability, to measure how far a system could be out of adjustment and still be rideable. 

After a brief trial, the professional racers refused to use Dura-Ace AX and this was a major cause of the failure of the aerodynamic concept.. Shimano was determined that SIS Dura-Ace would be accepted by the professional racers. Shimano's two professional race teams used SIS Dura-Ace in 1984 and 1985. Shimano mechanics and engineers accompanied the teams. Problems were quickly identified, corrected, and reported back to Japan. Shimano leaned from their Positron experience about the quality control problems with low-priced bikes. SIS was introduced from the top (Dura-Ace) down to the lower-priced levels. The first SIS Dura-Ace gear trains were properly installed on first class bicycles by trained mechanics. _


----------



## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Campy makes a hell of a good mechanical / rim brake group (which arguably may be the best on the market). They make good, durable and lightweight road racing wheels. However, that's all they're good at and all they seem to care about. This is a shrinking market. For the past 40 years, Campy has only grudgingly moved beyond their Nuovo Record heyday. They were making obsolete RD designs for decades after Suntour-inspired slant parallelograms (see above) had hit the mainstream. They only recently, and very reluctantly, began offering road disc brakes, which (like them or not) dominate the market. They still offer absolutely nothing for huge swaths of the market: the various MTB markets, gravel/adventure, bikepacking/touring etc. They seem most comfortable selling to their niche: faintly nostalgic lycra road riders with money. Lycra road riding is never going to go away but it is fading. So yeah, I think they're doomed.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

goodboyr said:


> Yes. Posts not pertaining to the topic were deleted by mods. And yes, he was banned because he's the same guy banned twice before using different usernames.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


What kind of guy gets banned, comes back, gets banned again...then comes back a 3rd time? He must really like the abuse and also the 'sound of his own voice'. The last couple of posts were so similar.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> What kind of guy gets banned, comes back, gets banned again...then comes back a 3rd time? He must really like the abuse and also the 'sound of his own voice'. The last couple of posts were so similar.


Are you saying he was temp banned 3x under the same name, or banned and started new accounts? If the latter, I guess he didn't realize mods check IP addresses.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Are you saying he was temp banned 3x under the same name, or banned and started new accounts? If the latter, I guess he didn't realize mods check IP addresses.


Pretty sure what I'm seeing is that he was permanently banned twice, and mods checking IP addresses is maybe what got him.


----------



## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

This made 3 times. All permanent bans. 
But enough about him. 

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Hiro11 said:


> Lycra road riding is never going to go away but it is fading.


What do you ride in denim? Corduroy? Linen? Very odd.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Are you saying he was temp banned 3x under the same name, or banned and started new accounts? If the latter, I guess he didn't realize mods check IP addresses.


I wouldn't be surprised if he posted through a proxy server to get around that problem. He seems to have an uncontrollable need to have everybody see the bile and drivel he posts....


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Hiro11 said:


> Campy makes a hell of a good mechanical / rim brake group (which arguably may be the best on the market). They make good, durable and lightweight road racing wheels. However, that's all they're good at and all they seem to care about. This is a shrinking market. For the past 40 years, Campy has only grudgingly moved beyond their Nuovo Record heyday. They were making obsolete RD designs for decades after Suntour-inspired slant parallelograms (see above) had hit the mainstream. They only recently, and very reluctantly, began offering road disc brakes, which (like them or not) dominate the market. They still offer absolutely nothing for huge swaths of the market: the various MTB markets, gravel/adventure, bikepacking/touring etc. They seem most comfortable selling to their niche: faintly nostalgic lycra road riders with money. Lycra road riding is never going to go away but it is fading. So yeah, I think they're doomed.


SRAM is a good example that there's still room in this space, and Campy is a good example of a niche player that can stay relevant. Let's not forget Campy was the first to bring out 10, 11, and 12 spd road groupsets. True, they did not embrace disc in the beginning, but neither did UCI. Like car enthusiasts, there will always be those that enjoy exclusivity, which Campy offers. Unlike some others, Campy does not even pretend to be everything to everyone.

Again, using my car analogy, Japanese luxury marques offer far more compelling values, but yet many European luxury brands still thrives. In fact, niche brands like Porsche and Ferrari are cash cows, Porsche makes $17K of profit PER car, and Ferrari, $90K. Campy is cycling's luxury brand, and there are plenty of cyclists with cash. I believe Campy is far from doomed and will continue to be the innovator and not an imitatator.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if he posted through a proxy server to get around that problem. He seems to have an uncontrollable need to have everybody see the bile and drivel he posts....


I guess if you use one account from a home pc connection, another from a work pc connection and a third via 4G on your phone, you can troll from 3 separate accounts and even argue with yourself for S&G's.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> I guess if you use one account from a home pc connection, another from a work pc connection and a third via 4G on your phone, you can troll from 3 separate accounts and even argue with yourself for S&G's.


:lol:!


----------



## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

It's very difficult (impossible really) to ban people by IP addresses. 

Almost all home ISP connections use dynamic addressing. Forcing a new IP assignment on your home modem/router is trivial.

Also, it's possible that there is more than one human in a household that may log in and post here. Banning an IP of a home internet user, you are banning all of the users in that household.

Most companies and universities use a single NAT IP for all of their employee/student web browsing. Banning that one IP would effectively ban all of those individuals access..

As someone else mentioned, a user could be at home, at starbucks, at work, on their phone, etc.. each with a different origin IP. it would be impossible to ban based on this alone


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

they've lost the OEM market and don't appear to be interested in gaining that back. seems destined to stay niche player


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> they've lost the OEM market and don't appear to be interested in gaining that back. seems destined to stay niche player


Really? You're ruining a perfectly good thread drift about trolling from separate accounts with more talk about Campy components?


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Almost 20 years ago, I did a bike tour in Tuscany with Andy Hampsten's Cinghiale group. He rode every mile with us and had dinner with us every night. A friend of mine hade me take an old BiciSport magazine for him to sign. It had an ad showing him getting ready for a time trial with his Shimano equipped. It was an ad for Dura Ace. I asked him what opinions the pros back then had about Shimano. He said 'everyone wanted it'. 'I recall the Campy ads had line 'Campagnolo -- feel the emotion -- the joke was (he feigns shifting) oh sh!t'. 

All my bikes are Campy equipped, mainly because I don't like switching from one to the other. I rode Dura Ace components for years. There's good and bad for each. I wouldn't say one is clearly better than the other. 

1. I like the thumb shifter on Campy that allows you to drop a bunch of gears at once
2. I like the feel of the Campy hoods
3. I hate the Campy front derailer shifting -- Shimano is nicer
4. I like the tactile feel of Campy
5. I like the way the Shimano shifters are set up. In all the years that I rode them, I never accidently braked trying to shift 
6. Shimano parts are increasingly ugly, and Campy seems to be following suit. Showing my age I guess
7. Both companies make nice wheels
8. Campy is a little more unique which probably appeals to older guys who don't ride the latest gee whiz mass produced carbon fiber frame. Of course, that could be it's demise.


----------



## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

nova_rider said:


> SRAM is a good example that there's still room in this space, and Campy is a good example of a niche player that can stay relevant. Let's not forget Campy was the first to bring out 10, 11, and 12 spd road groupsets. True, they did not embrace disc in the beginning, but neither did UCI. Like car enthusiasts, there will always be those that enjoy exclusivity, which Campy offers. Unlike some others, Campy does not even pretend to be everything to everyone.
> 
> Again, using my car analogy, Japanese luxury marques offer far more compelling values, but yet many European luxury brands still thrives. In fact, niche brands like Porsche and Ferrari are cash cows, Porsche makes $17K of profit PER car, and Ferrari, $90K. Campy is cycling's luxury brand, and there are plenty of cyclists with cash. I believe Campy is far from doomed and will continue to be the innovator and not an imitatator.


So what's Potenza and Centaur doing in their lineup?

And what about Xenon and Mirage, or dare I even mention it, Avanti?

And what was with their weird trickle upwards strategy?

And why does their 12 speed look so clunky compared to 2009 11 speed?

Why is 12 speed Record so much heavier than 11 speed Chorus?

(and before you get the wrong idea, I have 23 bikes, 22 are equipped with Campy)


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Really? You're ruining a perfectly good thread drift about trolling from separate accounts with more talk about Campy components?


let's troll the trolls by bringing it back on point


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> let's troll the trolls by bringing it back on point


Yes, you are correct of course. But the troll(s) have all been banned anyway.


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

I'd like to see a third party make index rings for Ergopower shifters so the cable pulls would work with usually far cheaper Shimano derailleurs.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

so far... the REAL reason for staying with Campy is..... the feeling of the shifters.

oh my, do Campy lovers have balerina hands or what??


----------



## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

From what I've read, Campy still sells all the product that they can make. I've used Campy since the 90's, ditching my Shimano STI shifters in favor of Campy and never looked back.

Campy was the first to have 10,11 and 12 speed road groups and the 12 speed cassettes fit 9/10/11 speed hubs. Hard to complain about that. If you think that Campy 12 is high priced, check out the prices for SRAM 12. Will it take Shimano 4 years to catch up, like it has in the past, whenever more cogs are added?

Those who've never tried the thumb lever complain about it. Works great for me. I like the ability to go up or down several cogs with one push of the button or sweep of the lever. I always buy Chorus or higher level shifters to avoid the dumbed-down lower level parts. I like the shorter reach of the Campy brake hoods for my small hands.

Campy will never be seen at your LBS, if that's where you go to buy your parts. That hasn't changed in over 20 years. I haven't bought a thing from a local shop for 20 years. For a long time, I bought most parts from Euro mail order stores, but recently the prices from a few US stores are not that much higher.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

C-40 said:


> Will it take Shimano 4 years to catch up, like it has in the past, whenever more cogs are added?
> 
> Those who've never tried the thumb lever complain about it. Works great for me. I like the ability to go up or down several cogs with one push of the button or sweep of the lever.


The thumb lever is ok when it works but prone to “locking up” (had it happen on pre/post 2015 Record quite a few times), and it’s easy to accidentally shift down more gears than desired (specially in panic mode). Campy had the lead in aesthetics, but that’s no longer true. 12 speed? Who cares? The cassette range is a joke (two I think). They don’t make a pedal to complete a group either. And the dopey speciaty tools and crap. A pin to put a chain on in 2019 (and a $200 tool to do it by the book)? No one has that antiquated way of joining a chain anymore. To me Campy is just way out of step with the industry and consumer market; Like 10 years at least. And they don’t seem to care to listen to consumers. Additionally, you’ll not find anyone (professional reviews) saying even SR is functionally better than Dura Ace 9100, as it isn’t. As far as “catching up” Shimano has infinitely more engineering resources and money to add another gear. Not a big deal.


----------



## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> Tand it’s easy to accidentally shift down more gears than desired (specially in panic mode). .



....jesus christ...what panic mode are you talkign about ? Do you ride your bike for pleasure or to take over some old guy driven gigantic RV on a highway ramp ? Shifting down more gears is something you get accustomed not doing it,trust me. On the opposite even after 10 years of use i still happen to shift/brake with Shimano.
Now don't get me wrong, thumb shifting got on my nerves when I've first rode it but with Campagnolo it all comes down to ergonomics. I will never go EPS over Di2 for sure and this will be my first and last Campagnolo equipped bike,but I have to admit these groups are something else. It's something you have to own once in a lifetime and unlike with Shimano or Sram you won't end up saying " yeah it's great but ..."


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I suspect Campagnolo will live on as a niche product purchased only by die hard fans who are doing new bike builds having purchased the frame separately. I'm guessing that on average this crowd is older and has more funds than the average bike owner and that hte bikes are likely to be Italian or custom builds. I hope I'm not saying anything too obvious here. 

New excitement seems to be on the side of SRAM and Shimano who have also taken over the OEM market. All three systems work and what you prefer is simply that personal preference.

Wouldn't surprise me if the company changes hands at some point in the future but to what end I don't know.


----------



## Chain (Dec 28, 2006)

Fixed : 
Campy is the Ferrari of the cycling world, 
Shimano is the Nissan/Honda/Lexus
SRAM is the Mustang/Camaro/Corvette


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> I suspect Campagnolo will live on as a niche product purchased only by die hard fans who are doing new bike builds having purchased the frame separately. I'm guessing that on average this crowd is older and has more funds than the average bike owner and that hte bikes are likely to be Italian or custom builds. I hope I'm not saying anything too obvious here.
> 
> New excitement seems to be on the side of SRAM and Shimano who have also taken over the OEM market. All three systems work and what you prefer is simply that personal preference.
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me if the company changes hands at some point in the future but to what end I don't know.


Abit off topic, but is anyone else noticing that the number of OEM builds using SRAM seems to be going down (talking road only here)? SRAM initially did a really good job getting stuff specced on new bikes but that seems to be slipping. I was at a shop last weekend and the owner told me he would no longer stock any SRAM road stuff because of being prone to failure.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

For what it's worth

https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/257005-11-best-campagnolo-equipped-road-bikes


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

velodog said:


> For what it's worth
> 
> https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/257005-11-best-campagnolo-equipped-road-bikes


". . .it invented the rear derailleur system as we know it today."
Already a sham article. Campy didn't invent the rear derailleur.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DaveG said:


> I was at a shop last weekend and the owner told me he would no longer stock any SRAM road stuff because of being prone to failure.


That's the same as my shop told me. He says SRAM road components don't hold up as well as Shimano. I have to admit though I haven't known anybody personally who has had SRAM road components fail on them.

I have to wonder if my shop just finds Shimano easier to deal with at a support level than SRAM. CXWrench on these forums claims SRAM support is very good and hasn't seen many problems with their road components.

So I don't know. I have never had SRAM road groupsets. I have SRAM mountain bike components and they are rock solid.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

DaveG said:


> Abit off topic, but is anyone else noticing that the number of OEM builds using SRAM seems to be going down (talking road only here)? SRAM initially did a really good job getting stuff specced on new bikes but that seems to be slipping. I was at a shop last weekend and the owner told me he would no longer stock any SRAM road stuff because of being prone to failure.


I've noticed that too. A few years ago half the bikes at my LBS had SRAM components on them. Now none of them do. Looking at the World Tour pro teams, 12 have Shimano, 4 have Campy and 2 have SRAM. I remember when SRAM first came out and people using it were routinely swapping out the front derailer for a Shimano one because it didn't work very well. Maybe we need to start a new thread entitled 'so SRAM is doomed?'


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> I suspect Campagnolo will live on as a niche product purchased only by die hard fans who are doing new bike builds having purchased the frame separately. I'm guessing that on average this crowd is older and has more funds than the average bike owner and that hte bikes are likely to be Italian or custom builds. I hope I'm not saying anything too obvious here.


That doesn't seem like a sustainable business model since most of us will be dead in 25 years.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

DaveG said:


> Abit off topic, but is anyone else noticing that the number of OEM builds using SRAM seems to be going down (talking road only here)? SRAM initially did a really good job getting stuff specced on new bikes but that seems to be slipping. I was at a shop last weekend and the owner told me he would no longer stock any SRAM road stuff because of being prone to failure.


I thought that was the case, but based on anecdotal ads I thought SRAM e-tap might have begun reversing that. Maybe Shimano is getting more aggressive on pricing, although if i were a customer I'd only go Shimano. It's what I'm used to.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Notvintage said:


> ". . .it invented the rear derailleur system as we know it today."
> Already a sham article. Campy didn't invent the rear derailleur.


It's not meant to be a history of the derailleur, nor Campagnolo, so much as a list of factory Campagnolo builds. So whether the author knows his history, or not, is really of minor import. But, there is some truth in the "as we know it today" part of the statement.

John Forester: Derailleurs

From the article

_Tullio Campagnolo did not invent the derailleur...
_

and then later in the article

_After WW II, Campagnolo invented two derailleurs. The second was the modern parallelogram movement_

And it is probably the parallelogram movement that he is referring to.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

I was recently on a ride where a fellow rider's RED eTap RD just stopped shifting with fully charged battery before the ride. Turns out he was using a warranty replacement due to some electronic gremlins(battery losing contact?). Apparently the replacement unit did not fare any better. He ended up kicking it and somehow it started working again. Did a quick Google search on eTap failures and he is not alone in having issues.

I guess if one wants to be on the cutting edge, one has to be willing to bleed a bit.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

nova_rider said:


> I was recently on a ride where a fellow rider's RED eTap RD just stopped shifting with fully charged battery before the ride. Turns out he was using a warranty replacement due to some electronic gremlins(battery losing contact?). Apparently the replacement unit did not fare any better. * He ended up kicking it and somehow it started working again*. Did a quick Google search on eTap failures and he is not alone in having issues.
> 
> I guess if one wants to be on the cutting edge, one has to be willing to bleed a bit.


There's a big enough hammer for any job.


----------



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

electronic shifting works great until it doesn't. when it fails you're done. that's not really the case with mechanical which is a simpler system


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> I thought that was the case, but based on anecdotal ads I thought SRAM e-tap might have begun reversing that. Maybe Shimano is getting more aggressive on pricing, although if i were a customer I'd only go Shimano. It's what I'm used to.


I rarely see any eTap stuff in a shop, but that may be mainly because most shops near me dont keep high-end bikes in inventory. Its always a special order.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> electronic shifting works great until it doesn't. when it fails you're done. that's not really the case with mechanical which is a simpler system


You are equally fecked with a mechanical system when a cable breaks. 

No, I don't any bikes with electronic components. Not that I wouldn't want to because anyone who has it seems enamored by it.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> I rarely see any eTap stuff in a shop, *but that may be mainly because most shops near me dont keep high-end bikes in inventory.* Its always a special order.


This is also a reason why Campagnolo isn't much seen in shops. Yes, they have lesser quality groups\components, but they've made their name in the high end market, so not only is it a niche market, but it's a market that isn't really "seen" by a newer\beginning cyclist starting out with a modest investment. And when that cyclist decides to up grade to somethin new they will probably go with what is known. And shops are going to cater to that.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

pmf said:


> You are equally fecked with a mechanical system when a cable breaks.
> 
> No, I don't any bikes with electronic components. Not that I wouldn't want to because anyone who has it seems enamored by it.


A mechanical system allows the stops to be adjusted or the cable tied off allowing the cyclist to pick a gear to be stuck in where as an electronic system, unless I'm mistaken, dumps the derailleur onto the smallest cog. 

Either way you're riding home with a front derailleur and a two speed system.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

velodog said:


> A mechanical system allows the stops to be adjusted or the cable tied off allowing the cyclist to pick a gear to be stuck in where as an electronic system, unless I'm mistaken, dumps the derailleur onto the smallest cog.
> 
> Either way you're riding home with a front derailleur and a two speed system.


My Record EPS has a manual override that allows the RD to be repositioned to any gear.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

nova_rider said:


> My Record EPS has a manual override that allows the RD to be repositioned to any gear.


There you go, it's a choice between cables or wires. That's a good thing.

Personally, I'm a cable kind of guy, but as long as it says Campagnolo on it, it's all good.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

pmf said:


> You are equally fecked with a mechanical system when a cable breaks.


A mechanical system is far more reliable than an electronic one. Prolly why Peter Sagan raced and won the 2018 Paris Roubaix on Dura-Ace 9100.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> A mechanical system is far more reliable than an electronic one. Prolly why Peter Sagan raced and won the 2018 Paris Roubaix on Dura-Ace 9100.


What's the MTBF of a mechanical system vs electronic?


----------



## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Notvintage said:


> A mechanical system is far more reliable than an electronic one. Prolly why Peter Sagan raced and won the 2018 Paris Roubaix on Dura-Ace 9100.


I'm sorry, but this is an utterly ridiculous statement.

Peter Sagan, and perhaps others have won recent races on mechanical shifting systems, but it's a small drop in the bucket compared to races and stages won on Di2 systems.

If your statement about Di2 being less reliable than mechanical systems were true then a lot more teams would be running mechanical.

Allow me to make an equally ridiculous claim.

I have 35k miles (maybe more) on Ultegra Di2 and have never had any kind of mechanical failure. Therefore Di2 is perfect and impervious to mechanical issues.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

tlg said:


> What's the MTBF of a mechanical system vs electronic?


I'm not aware of any published MTBF values for either. But if there is one, I suspect the electronic would be as good or better than the mechanical and the differentiator would likely be the levers rather than the derailleurs.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Finx said:


> I'm sorry, but this is an utterly ridiculous statement.
> 
> Peter Sagan, and perhaps others have won recent races on mechanical shifting systems, but it's a small drop in the bucket compared to races and stages won on Di2 systems.
> 
> ...


I dont know if electronic is any more or less reliable (I don't run electronic because I am an avowed Luddite) but this is not a convincing argument. If a pro riders shifting were to fail, mechanical or electronic, they just grab a spare bike from the team car. They don't have to call their spouse or an Uber. 

I have had exactly one catastrophic shifting failure in 30 years of riding, a SRAM double-tap right shifter that failed. It left me in the small cog, but I was able to limp home


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Notvintage said:


> A mechanical system is far more reliable than an electronic one. Prolly why Peter Sagan raced and won the 2018 Paris Roubaix on Dura-Ace 9100.


Empty argument. While I am happy with my mechanical groupos and have no intention of going electronic, the logic that a pro won because of his groupset is baseless.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Lombard said:


> . . .the logic that a pro won because of his groupset is baseless.


Reading comprehension is fundamental. Point was in an extremely important one day stage race he chose mechanical as he knows it’s less likely to have an issue.


----------



## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Notvintage said:


> Reading comprehension is fundamental. Point was in an extremely important one day stage race he chose mechanical as he knows it’s less likely to have an issue.


Then why is Geraint Thomas, Chris Froome, the entirety of Team Sky, and the majority of every other Pro Tour team running electronic shifting in the most important races ?

My arguement is *much* stronger than yours, but I'm not going to suggest that because of this statement, Di2 is more (or less) reliable than Mechanical groupsets. But I'm also saying you shouldn't be saying it either. You don't know. You only know Sagan used it. Not why (unless you are a mind reader).

I know when Contador was using mechanical, he stated it was because he preferred the tactile feel of the mechanical levers over the Di2 buttons (personal preference). It had nothing to do with reliability.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Thousands of miles on my SRAM group and no problems. Well, none since I went with a 105 FD....


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> Thousands of miles on my SRAM group and no problems. Well, none since I went with a 105 FD....


You had a FD fail? Isn't it usually shifters that fail?


----------



## AgingSuburbanPunk (Mar 7, 2019)

OK, I'm an older gent who is violating my don't drink and post rule here, but this has got me going. I want to share some history and my learned opinion - just mine - with you good folks.
1) Campy is the polar opposite of Ferrari! Adding one extra cog to a perfectly adequate cog set is not at all like anything at all what a Ferrari represents. Maybe fat old rich guys have fast cars and fat old rich guys have Campy equipped bikes, but the similarities end there. Dura Ace has always been as silky, precise, and smooth as anything Campag cranked out.
2) I dropped out of school to buy and race the first Campy super record bike I ever laid eyes on in 1978. At the time it was head and shoulders above the rest. Things change over time.
3) I quit liking Campagnolo in about 1990 when they could not make a marginally functional indexing drivetrain and could not make a mountain bike group that was good for anything other than comic relief. Things change over time
4) I last remember how great Shimano nailed the ergonomics on the first STI group and the Campag stuff was awkward and felt like it was going to break with each and every shift at about the same time.
5) Shimano also whacked it out of the park with the outboard bearing on the rear hub axle. If you don't understand, ask your mechanic.
6) Campag will alway be in operation as long as garlic, chianti, and olive oil prices don't rise too quickly.
7) The Italians are some of the nicest, most personable and sincere people I have ever met while travelling.


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

AgingSuburbanPunk said:


> Dura Ace has always been as silky, precise, and smooth as anything Campag cranked out.
> 
> I dropped out of school to buy and race the first Campy super record bike I ever laid eyes on in 1978. At the time it was head and shoulders above the rest.


Those statements are contradictory, given that Dura-Ace and Super Record were both introduced in 1973.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

tomato coupe said:


> Those statements are contradictory, given that Dura-Ace and Super Record were both introduced in 1973.


Regardless, this is 2019 and in cable actuated systems, Dura Ace is superior in the departments of “silky, precise, and smooth.” Every review will say that, as well as people who’ve owned both. They both shift gears very well; it’s just done with different senses of feel and precision. Dura Ace is just so nice as the tolerances are so tight. Campy simply can not afford to build to the tolerances of a billion dollar conglomerate like Shimano can. And forget real world testing. No cyclocross teams have/use Campy, and maybe a few pro road teams run it? It gets little real proving other than older folks internet posters. So little feedback gets little progress unless turning the dial to “12” means a lot.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tomato coupe said:


> Those statements are contradictory, given that Dura-Ace and Super Record were both introduced in 1973.


Could it be AgingSP bought a '73-'78 Campy Super Record bike to race on in '78? :idea: By '80, Super Record had surpassed Nuovo Record as the group of choice for serious roadies.

Yep, Dura Ace was smooth as silk. It had to be to compete with the standard Campy had established.

I'm still riding a DeRosa Professional, Columbus SL with SLX seat tube snuck in, "full Campy" Super Record, Cinelli stem and bars, Sell Italia Turbo saddle, a replica of the bikes Hinault, LeMond, and most pros rode in the late '70s and early '80s. 

Then got the local frame builder to fix up a Columbus SLX/SP commuter. Put Campy on it, all but the headset and BB I already had from Bike Nashbar sales, on a flippy Puch Luzern, my first "real" drop bar road bike. 

The commuter's Record steel headset is still good after a horrendous crash that bent the fork. Both BBs are good after 75,000 miles. All 4 wheel hubs are also in top shape, although their rims have been replaced at least once. 

The commuter weighs about the same as a gravel bike, 24#, and the DeRosa is 22#, a little heavy for club rides, but still lots of fun, and tough as nails: on 25 mm tires not afraid of hard packed dirt, steel plates and such urban hazards. Slick 25s and 28s slip around on gravel, so I avoid it. I think they paved the one gravel MUT up in Bethesda, MD.

I've considered buying more modern bikes along the way, but always decided to wait for the next innovation that would tempt lust. So far, my love for DeRosa and the Italians has not withered one bit, so I've stuck to my true love and it's American cousin. Walked past a guy today, suffering the half mile climb up the main drag on his carbon Specialized. He was looking good, but working his a$$ off. I thought, "Hey, I can do that!" And walked on.


----------



## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

Notvintage said:


> Regardless, this is 2019 ...





Fredrico said:


> Could it be AgingSP bought a '73-'78 Campy Super Record bike ...


You're over thinking this. My post was a simple statement that AgingSP had two contradictory statements. They cannot both be true.


----------



## AgingSuburbanPunk (Mar 7, 2019)

I may be wrong here, but The Super Record group was still new in 1978. The bike I purchased (Bottecchia Professional) had titanium axles front and rear. It is my understanding that Campy only used them in the first year of production. As an aside, the bike had a Regina titanium freewheel and probably an exotic chain that someone removed and replaced with an HKK. I need to get out more, I live in the sticks and rarely see other riders up close, let alone the latest Campy groups. Now I’m curious.


----------



## Monk (Jan 28, 2012)

I think I'm like a lot of riders who buy their bike equipment to make themselves happy. I don't follow trends and I simply know what I like. I have only used Campy because it works to my satisfaction, it looks beautiful, makes me happy and want to ride. I love just looking at it. To me, it's not a competition, ride what stokes you out.
No brand of component is without its' fault, but some of my oldest Campy is from '83 (which I bought new) and it still works flawlessly with thousands of miles on it. I currently have two 11 speed gruppos with many miles on them, and I love the reliability and functionality. It's just personal preference. 
Aesthetically, I wouldn't be caught dead on SRAM, it's gotta be the ugliest components I've ever seen. I have no idea how it performs, but I don't care, it looks shitty and I need my steed looking good. Again, personal preference. 
I had one Ultegra equipped back up bike for 6 months which worked very well and looks adequate. I never got use to a separate lever for upshifts/downshifts (I really like Campy's thumb shifter), but Shimano's front derailleur shifted better to the big ring. 
I don't think Campy will have a problem surviving when a few world pro teams use them year after year, and enough snobs like me are out there to keep them afloat. ;-)


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

AgingSuburbanPunk said:


> I may be wrong here, but The Super Record group was still new in 1978. The bike I purchased (Bottecchia Professional) had titanium axles front and rear. It is my understanding that Campy only used them in the first year of production. As an aside, the bike had a Regina titanium freewheel and probably an exotic chain that someone removed and replaced with an HKK. I need to get out more, I live in the sticks and rarely see other riders up close, let alone the latest Campy groups. Now I’m curious.


Yep, SR was the top of the line in '78. Lots of riders were sticking to Nuovo Record, preferring the two bolt seat clamps for one thing, and the stouter derailleurs and headsets. SR lightened up with aluminum parts that were not quite as bullet proof. 

Those titanium axles split more readily than CRMO back in screw-on freewheel days, probably the reason they only used them the first year. I even broke a Campy CRMO rear axle once accelerating on one of the inner cogs. Shimano ended that problem by inventing freewheel cassettes, putting the right wheel bearing out at the dropout rather than towards the middle, forever ending broken rear axles. So be gentle!


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tomato coupe said:


> You're over thinking this. My post was a simple statement that AgingSP had two contradictory statements. They cannot both be true.


Ok, sorry. I missed your point first time around.


----------



## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Finx said:


> Then why is Geraint Thomas, Chris Froome, the entirety of Team Sky, and the majority of every other Pro Tour team running electronic shifting in the most important races ?
> 
> My arguement is *much* stronger than yours, but I'm not going to suggest that because of this statement, Di2 is more (or less) reliable than Mechanical groupsets. But I'm also saying you shouldn't be saying it either. You don't know. You only know Sagan used it. Not why (unless you are a mind reader).
> 
> I know when Contador was using mechanical, he stated it was because he preferred the tactile feel of the mechanical levers over the Di2 buttons (personal preference). It had nothing to do with reliability.


If I am Shimano (or SRAM or Campy) I want the riders on the team I am sponsoring to be riding my highest end group. Sagan is a huge star so he can say "no". Having riders win on mechanical doesn't further Shimnaoi's marketing agenda that you need to buy DA Di2 to ride like the pro's.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Ah ... debating stuff that really has no answer ...

Campy versus Shimano

the durability of Mechanical versus electronic shifting

I love being a bike pervert ...


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

pmf said:


> Ah ... debating stuff that really has no answer ...
> 
> Campy versus Shimano
> 
> ...


Let's debate on labeling as well. I prefer to be called a cycling dork.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

nova_rider said:


> Let's debate on labeling as well. I prefer to be called a cycling dork.


If you wear baggy shorts and have a helmet cam, then dork it is.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

pmf said:


> I love being a bike pervert ...





nova_rider said:


> Let's debate on labeling as well. I prefer to be called a cycling dork.


Or, as a club around here...

Bike Psycho


----------



## Sproiteboike (Jun 9, 2018)

That's just the nature of capitalism. Shimano used to be known as the "poor man's campy". Lance was the first to win the TDF with Shimano and they skyrocketed. Campy was good back when people had less options and the internet wasn't as prevalent so people would go by what they heard from family members and friends. The simple truth is that Shimano makes better, more pragmatic and versatile group-sets at a better price so it's no surprise as to why they are dominating.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Sproiteboike said:


> That's just the nature of capitalism. Shimano used to be known as the "poor man's campy". Lance was the first to win the TDF with Shimano and they skyrocketed. Campy was good back when people had less options and the internet wasn't as prevalent so people would go by what they heard from family members and friends. The simple truth is that Shimano makes better, more pragmatic and versatile group-sets at a better price so it's no surprise as to why they are dominating.


So ... your dad has Shimano on his bike?


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Sproiteboike said:


> That's just the nature of capitalism. Shimano used to be known as the "poor man's campy". Lance was the first to win the TDF with Shimano and they skyrocketed. Campy was good back when people had less options and the internet wasn't as prevalent so people would go by what they heard from family members and friends. The simple truth is that Shimano makes better, more pragmatic and versatile group-sets at a better price so it's no surprise as to why they are dominating.


Nah. Those riding Campy still consider Shimano "the poor man's Campy."


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Nah. Those riding Campy still consider Shimano "the poor man's Campy."


Or simply ShimaNO.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Lombard said:


> You had a FD fail? Isn't it usually shifters that fail?


It was having having issues with dropping the chain going from big ring to little ring. I bought the bike used so it could have been damaged? I do love the way double tap shifts and the ability to pull the shift levers to any position you want is really more handy than I’d have thought until a few thousand miles later... I use that feature all the time, especially in the drops where I spend a lot of time...


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

nova_rider said:


> Or simply ShimaNO.


Yep. Dura *Ace* will never inspire the passion of Campy *Record*. The names say it all.


----------



## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

Unless you were shopping for a Paramount in the 70s you’d rarely see Campy in a U.S. bike store. Back then it was the tough, beautiful state of the art that the Japanese shamelessly copied for a fraction of the price. But at some point Shimano quit copying and started innovating. Today you can get a superior-functioning 105 group for less than one Record crank.

I think Campy will probably keep the niche it’s always had. It’s still tough, beautiful bike art that’s worth the $$ to some. But I wouldn’t be surprised to see the brand drop everything below Chorus one day.


----------



## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Fredrico said:


> Yep. Dura *Ace* will never inspire the passion of Campy *Record*. The names say it all.


Yep, riding Campy is a bit like having a Rolex. It doesn't keep time and you have to wind it by hand but still, it is a status symbol.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

In this world, if you don't evolve, you die.

Kodak and Smith-Corona made fine products in their day. However, they did not keep up with the times.


----------



## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

Shimano? I hear they make decent fishing reels and sowing machines.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mackgoo said:


> Shimano? I hear they make decent fishing reels and sowing machines.


Sowing machines? Or do you mean sewing machines?


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

Shimano also has rowing equipment-looks like a maritime version of MTB SPD shoes/pedal tech.

https://shoprowing.shimano.com/


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

mackgoo said:


> Shimano? I hear they make decent fishing reels and _sewing_ machines.





Bremerradkurier said:


> Shimano also has rowing equipment-looks like a maritime version of MTB SPD shoes/pedal tech.
> 
> https://shoprowing.shimano.com/


ShimaNO has something for everyone, Campagnolo makes cycling gear and corkscrew.


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

velodog said:


> ShimaNO has something for everyone, Campagnolo makes cycling gear and corkscrew.


Not sure if they still are, but didn't Campa do some parts supplying to the Italian auto/motorcycle industry?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Bremerradkurier said:


> Not sure if they still are, but didn't Campa do some parts supplying to the Italian auto/motorcycle industry?


I know that they did, but I think, although I may be wrong, that they don't any more.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Some comparison numbers for those who may not know:

Shimano:
Founded	February 1921
Revenue	Increase $ 2.93 billion (FY 2017) (¥ 322.99 billion) (FY 2017)
Net income Increase $ 462.65 million (FY 2017) (¥ 50.89 billion) (FY 2017)
Number of employees: 11,829 (consolidated, as of December 31, 2017)
Sales breakdown: Bicycle Components: 79.7%, Fishing Tackle: 20.2%

Campagnolo:
Founded	1933
Number of employees approx. 750
Revenue Info: N/A

SRAM:
Founded	1987
Revenue	$725 million (2017)
Number of employees: 3500


----------



## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Mike Overly said:


> Unless you were shopping for a Paramount in the 70s you’d rarely see Campy in a U.S. bike store. Back then it was the tough, beautiful state of the art that the Japanese shamelessly copied for a fraction of the price.


This is a bit unfair. Both SunTour and Shimano were offering dropped parallelogram RDs in the late 70s that were far superior and far less expensive than anything Campy offered at that time. Campy didn't offer a truly competitive RD until the early 90s. Not sure how the rest of the groups compared, though.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Hiro11 said:


> This is a bit unfair. Both SunTour and Shimano were offering dropped parallelogram RDs in the late 70s that were far superior and far less expensive than anything Campy offered at that time. Campy didn't offer a truly competitive RD until the early 90s. Not sure how the rest of the groups compared, though.


I forgot about Suntour. They were a quality brand in the 1970's rivaling Shimano. They then went to the dark side along with Schwinn and you only find Suntour on budget bikes now.


----------



## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

Lombard said:


> I forgot about Suntour. They were a quality brand in the 1970's rivaling Shimano. They then went to the dark side along with Schwinn and you only find Suntour on budget bikes now.


Some have argued that Suntour was a victim of _catch & kill_ perpetrated by Shimano (snapping up many rival patents and burying them in Uncle Hiro's Attic).

Such was expected by arrogant upstart _Grip Shift_ that amazingly, gave Shimano's MTB gruppos the heebeegeebees in the nineties... and then they had the balls to go after a share of road gruppos as many expected Sram to be nuked from space by Shimano!!!


----------



## Bremerradkurier (May 25, 2012)

later Superbe Pro was gorgeous stuff and even spent some time in yellow during the '87 or '88 TdF.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Akirasho said:


> Some have argued that Suntour was a victim of _catch & kill_ perpetrated by Shimano (snapping up many rival patents and burying them in Uncle Hiro's Attic).
> 
> Such was expected by arrogant upstart _Grip Shift_ that amazingly, gave Shimano's MTB gruppos the heebeegeebees in the nineties... and then they had the balls to go after a share of road gruppos as many expected Sram to be nuked from space by Shimano!!!


SunTour was, arguably, the best of the component groups being made, but Shimano, being as large as it was\is ground them into oblivion much like Godzilla did Japan.
SunTour created the slant parallelogram derailleur and held the patent making the best shifting derailleurs on the market.

VeloBase.com - View Brand

Sunset for SunTour


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Most everyone touts Campy shifters but those thumb shifters seem more like a novelty to me, they work fine, they just don't really do anything for me. I have to say though, aesthetically-speaking, Campy is beautiful and work fine.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

nova_rider said:


> Some comparison numbers for those who may not know:
> 
> Shimano:
> Founded February 1921
> ...


Thanks! Now I’m thinking of putting Campy on my next bike! I had no idea they were that small. Thumb buttons though? So, the brake levers are not part of the shifting function right? Like my SRAM...


----------



## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

in 50 years of cycling, have never been tempted to purchase Campy bits...

guess I'll never know if I was missing anything.


----------



## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I really wish my hands fit Campagnolo hoods. The precision and serviceability (not to mention the cache) of the components really does appeal to me, but I have never found their brake-shifters to be the right fit.

Shimano shifting has always felt like a limp noodle to me, even if I really like the braking performance, so I've been with SRAM for over a decade. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, I guess.

Campagnolo will always have their core audience, and if they manage their resources well, they will be around for a very, very long time.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> Thanks! Now I’m thinking of putting Campy on my next bike! I had no idea they were that small. Thumb buttons though? So, the brake levers are not part of the shifting function right? Like my SRAM...


Correct. The brake levers do not rotate. Campy uses a paddle lever behind the brake lever to downshift and a thumb button to upshift. Compared with Shimano, I find there is far less twisting of hand/wrist required to shift. This is particularly nice when shifting during out-of-saddle climb. Compared to SRAM, I find it difficult to switch between the two, more so than Shimano as the same motion can result in total opposite action(downshift instead of upshift).


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

nova_rider said:


> Correct. The brake levers do not rotate. Campy uses a paddle lever behind the brake lever to downshift and a thumb button to upshift. Compared with Shimano, I find there is far less twisting of hand/wrist required to shift. This is particularly nice when shifting during out-of-saddle climb. Compared to SRAM, I find it difficult to switch between the two, more so than Shimano as the same motion can result in total opposite action(downshift instead of upshift).


The thing that I like the best about Campagnolo levers is the fact that every function has it's own lever\button. I need to reach for the thumb button from the drops, but not unyieldingly so.


----------



## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

nova_rider said:


> Some comparison numbers for those who may not know:
> 
> Shimano:
> Founded	February 1921
> ...


I think SRAM guesstimated in their yearly report that Campagnolo had revenues of ~$80 million. Only $35 million from groupsets though, with the rest from their wheels (both Campagnolo and Fulcrum)


----------



## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

nova_rider said:


> Some comparison numbers for those who may not know:
> 
> Shimano:
> Founded February 1921
> ...


Of course it depends on where you draw the line at who is and is not a SRAM employee...for example all the Zipp people, all the Truvativ people, Quarq, Avid and so on.

SRAM loves to talk about being a US a company making stuff in the USA....but it can only claim that because it bought Zipps factories in the US. All the actual SRAM gear is made elsewhere.


----------



## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

nova_rider said:


> Correct. The brake levers do not rotate. Campy uses a paddle lever behind the brake lever to downshift and a thumb button to upshift.


It's the paddle to up-shift and the thumb thing to downshift.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

nova_rider said:


> Correct. The brake levers do not rotate. Campy uses a paddle lever behind the brake lever to downshift and a thumb button to upshift. Compared with Shimano, I find there is far less twisting of hand/wrist required to shift. This is particularly nice when shifting during out-of-saddle climb. Compared to SRAM, I find it difficult to switch between the two, more so than Shimano as the same motion can result in total opposite action(downshift instead of upshift).





Notvintage said:


> It's the paddle to up-shift and the thumb thing to downshift.


Push the thumb button down and chain drops to the smaller cog or chainwheel, push the paddle in and the chain moves to the larger cog or chainwheel. The paddle moves the chain in the same direction that the paddle moves, and a push of the thumb button always pushes the chain down. Push the left paddle and the chain moves away from the bike to the larger chainwheel while pushing the right paddle moves the chain towards the bike to the larger cog.


----------



## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Notvintage said:


> It's the paddle to up-shift and the thumb thing to downshift.


No, shifting to larger cassette is downshifting, shifting to smaller one is upshifting.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

nova_rider said:


> No, shifting to larger cassette is downshifting, shifting to smaller one is upshifting.


So, the function is the same as my Shimano thumb button. I like the definitive thump of dropping the chain down. That includes both the cogs and chain ring. That said, it is, to me, and perhaps less subjectively and more objectively, a so-so model. My SRAM double tap has perfect access and utility from every hand position. The brake levers are just that... Brakes. I don’t like the brake lever being involved with the shifting. Personal preference and I don’t care what others prefer, not in a sarky way... It’s a long throw. It’s slow. It is especially annoying under high heat, high sweat conditions. It’s like life insurance... investments work better than insurance policies that double as investments and insurance works better than insurance that double as an investment. Then there is hand position... Those buttons can be pesky. I’ve had some ugly encounters, especially, again, under high sweat conditions. The ergonomics of the SRAM double tap are so well thought out... Brilliant.


----------



## gfk_velo (Jun 17, 2013)

Mackers said:


> I think SRAM guesstimated in their yearly report that Campagnolo had revenues of ~$80 million. Only $35 million from groupsets though, with the rest from their wheels (both Campagnolo and Fulcrum)


No need to guess, it's a matter of public record.
Google returns a verifiable answer in tenths of a second ... it probably suits SRAM to under-report.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PizzaDeliveryDude said:


> Too bad Eric Norris is no longer doing his Web site.


He's got a youtube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCccfA4NuyWU3-YaUf9LkNwA


----------



## Devastazione (Dec 8, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> So, the function is the same as my Shimano thumb button. .



The true difference between Shimano and Campy besides the one lever actions is that with campagnolo the gear shift is immediate,whilst Shimano it actually happens when you release the lever,it's like you're sort of preloading a coil. Nothing like that with Campagnolo,it's just one enjoyable shot. 
Can't speak of SRAM ergonomics but I've decided to swap from Shimano to Campagnolo by just holding one of the Campy's hoods from another guy bike in the showroom at lbs...it just felt right.


----------



## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Devastazione said:


> Can't speak of SRAM ergonomics


I currently have Campy and Sram. My bike with Campy used to have Shimano. I would say Sram is about half way between Campy and Shimano in terms of shifting ergonomics.


----------



## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Devastazione said:


> The true difference between Shimano and Campy besides the one lever actions is that with campagnolo the gear shift is immediate,whilst Shimano it actually happens when you release the lever,it's like you're sort of preloading a coil. Nothing like that with Campagnolo,it's just one enjoyable shot.
> Can't speak of SRAM ergonomics but I've decided to swap from Shimano to Campagnolo by just holding one of the Campy's hoods from another guy bike in the showroom at lbs...it just felt right.


I never really paid attention to when the shift happens in relation to how the levers are activated and Yes, I’ve used both Shimano as well as Campy systems extensively. Probably as it’s not like the Shimano system noticeably slows it down, or at least to the extent that I would really ever care.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Devastazione said:


> The true difference between Shimano and Campy besides the one lever actions is that with campagnolo the gear shift is immediate,whilst Shimano it actually happens when you release the lever,it's like you're sort of preloading a coil. Nothing like that with Campagnolo,it's just one enjoyable shot.
> Can't speak of SRAM ergonomics but I've decided to swap from Shimano to Campagnolo by just holding one of the Campy's hoods from another guy bike in the showroom at lbs...it just felt right.


this is only true for going to a smaller cog. Going to a bigger cog the shift is immediate.


----------

