# Tell me about Motobecane



## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

How do you pronounce it? And how can one with Ultegra sell below $1000? I would imagine the other parts and frame must be below standard to sell so cheap, but haven't seem one up close. Can someone fill me in?


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

I suggest you got to the Motobecane fourm on this site.

Folks have varied thoughts on the company in general though you get what you pay for.


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## netlobo96 (Aug 7, 2007)

*A blast from the past*

You pronounce it: Mow ta ba con. They were a popular frame back in the 70's. But to my knowledge they have been satisfied to produce low to medium level bikes. You don't see them as much anymore. The Ultegra gruppo is probably the most valuable part of the bike.


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## canthidefromme (Jun 29, 2006)

If you search 'motobecane' I imagine you'll find a plethora of threads containing both pro and anti moto opinions.


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## netlobo96 (Aug 7, 2007)

*More illustrious version of Motobecane's history*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motobécane


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Moto (as in motocross) beh khan. Used to be (60's, 70's) a respected name in cycling. The company went defunct and the name was bought and resurrected. Generic (Chinese?) frame, low margin Internet company. They cut corners on the none group components and define a group as just the basics (usually not even including the crank) so they can substitute lower cost parts. As MB1 said, you get what you pay for. They have a niche and I don't begrudge them trying to make a buck in a tough business.


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## JayTee (Feb 3, 2004)

netlobo96 said:


> You pronounce it: Mow ta ba con. They were a popular frame back in the 70's. But to my knowledge they have been satisfied to produce low to medium level bikes. You don't see them as much anymore. The Ultegra gruppo is probably the most valuable part of the bike.



Different company now completely. No connection whatsoever to the old French manufacturer, other than the purchase of the long-defunct name to smack on mass production entry level frames. NTTAWWT... whatever floats one's boat and whatnot. But I just hate to see someone think that they are buying the latest in the "Motobecane line" or the latest example of "Masi heritage" etc. etc. in purchasing the current bikes e-marketed under those old names.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Most of the people buying these bikes would have no idea this was once a respected bike company in the 60's and 70's. To them it would be just another French name by a manufacturer trying to project a european image. Gee, I guess that's exactly what it is.


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## b24fsb (Dec 21, 2006)

there frames are junk, plain and simple.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

You get what you pay for and if you are in the market for a cheap bike, go for it.

And like MB1 said, check out the Motobecane forum.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

While I have no personal experience with the 'new generation' motobecane I think it is fair to say that if one gets the fit dialed in, a bike from bikesdirect would be more than plenty for most any rider out there. Once you get to the ultegra level and higher, the overall component make up looks pretty strong. They sell a fully campy record bike with ritchey WCS cockpit and wheels for 2000. You'd be hard pressed to buy all that stuff for the same price. 

I think it's worth considering when shopping for a new bike, if anything to at least see how much a 'baseline' bike of a certain component level will cost. I actually had a phone number that connected to their sister retail company. called cyclone cycles or something like that. They are in florida i believe. More helpful than I thought they would be. 

What you lose in name recognition and customer service you make up for in price. You can never have all three. If I ever did buy a motobecane now I would probably have to tear it apart and build it over again so I could trust it. I've heard a few complaints about bottom bracket needing to be faced and horrible cable routing, also some people get 90mm stems on 58cm bikes and so on.

You could probably buy one build up another frame with all the components and then through some cheap parts on the frame to make a nice rain bike out of.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Your spelling is junk, plain and simple.*



b24fsb said:


> there frames are junk, plain and simple.


*Their* frames may not be the best available and I am no fan of the company or *their* business practices but I have never seen a new "junk" Motobecane frame from Bikes Direct.

I have proven that your spelling has issues, other than your opinion do you have any facts to back up your claim regarding the quality of Motobecane frames?


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## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

I wonder just how much BD thinks the name recognition helps sales. If memory serves, Motobecane wasn't as popular a brand as Gitane or Peugeot (although I owned 2 in the 70s), and the other "brands" they sell, Mercier and Windsor were hardly household names. I guess what I'm getting at is why don't they just come up with their own brand name? As I understand it, these are just generic (NTTAWT) Kinesis frames with decals.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

MB1 said:


> *Their* frames may not be the best available and I am no fan of the company or *their* business practices but I have never seen a new "junk" Motobecane frame from Bikes Direct.
> 
> I have proven that your spelling has issues, other than your opinion do you have any facts to back up your claim regarding the quality of Motobecane frames?


I would assume you get what you get. If you get one of the immortal bikes you'd be a somewhat plush ride and if you got the champion or whatever the aluminum line is you'd get a slightly stiffer, heavier, harsher ride. I'm sure if you outfitted a carbon motobecane the same way a Trek or a specialized was speced and blindfolded a rider, you wouldn't be able to notice much of a difference, probably not the $1000 or so in price difference.

It seems like most of the people who own a motobecane on this forum think rather highly of the bike. It seems like most of the negatives are about the business practices, which I admit are probably not the most admirable.


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## b24fsb (Dec 21, 2006)

MB1 said:


> *Their* frames may not be the best available and I am no fan of the company or *their* business practices but I have never seen a new "junk" Motobecane frame from Bikes Direct.
> 
> I have proven that your spelling has issues, other than your opinion do you have any facts to back up your claim regarding the quality of Motobecane frames?



ok you got me on the spelling, i used the wrong "there/their". all you have to do is look at the quality of the frame and you will see. the quality control standards are not high and the quality of the alum. is the same. there is a reason that these bikes cost so little, its because you are paying for the groupset and wheels. i mean think about it an ultegra groupset is going to cost around $650 and thats cost, now bike builders get it for cheaper i know but it a close baseline. wheels we will go super cheap and say that the AC are only $150, this is WAY off but just for argument sake. now you want to add ritchey WCS stem and seatpost and FSA CF cranks. just start to add up all the parts and you will see that the frame is going to cost literally like $20. for them to say it cost $2500 but we are selling it for $1000 and we are going to loose $1500 is just crazy. its a marketing strategy, if you put good quality parts on a bike and make a super cheap frame to put them on and charge a crazy low price people will say its to good of a deal to pass up. I hear that from SO many people that ride a Motobecane, " it was such a good deal i couldnt pass it up".


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

What is wrong with the frame? Does it fail? Flex a lot?


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## taikuodo (Aug 7, 2006)

Theres nothing wrong with these frames, except they don't look super cool.


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## I am The Edge (Jul 27, 2004)

b24fsb said:


> there frames are junk, plain and simple.



do you own one?


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

b24fsb said:


> ok you got me on the spelling, i used the wrong "there/their". all you have to do is look at the quality of the frame and you will see. the quality control standards are not high and the quality of the alum. is the same. there is a reason that these bikes cost so little, its because you are paying for the groupset and wheels. i mean think about it an ultegra groupset is going to cost around $650 and thats cost, now bike builders get it for cheaper i know but it a close baseline. wheels we will go super cheap and say that the AC are only $150, this is WAY off but just for argument sake. now you want to add ritchey WCS stem and seatpost and FSA CF cranks. just start to add up all the parts and you will see that the frame is going to cost literally like $20. for them to say it cost $2500 but we are selling it for $1000 and we are going to loose $1500 is just crazy. its a marketing strategy, if you put good quality parts on a bike and make a super cheap frame to put them on and charge a crazy low price people will say its to good of a deal to pass up. I hear that from SO many people that ride a Motobecane, " it was such a good deal i couldnt pass it up".


Wow, you don't seem to have too much experience with the bike/brand you are bashing. I have owned treks, specialized and litespeed roadbikes as well as the Le Champ SL I bought a couple of years back. I didn't see any issues with the quality of the frame or the performance. The bike I got performed on par with any other road bike that I have had the pleasure to throw a leg over. They are made in the same factories as many other "quality" road bikes. I believe their internet distribution strategy is a lot cheaper than selling bikes in stores. The only "off" brand part of the bike was the brakes (tektro) and possibly the seat (velo). Bottom bracket and cassette were ultegra and the FSA carbon crank is probably better than an ultegra crank IMO. The cables and housings were a good quality jagwire. Seatpost and stem are Ritchey WCS and the wheels are AC 350s. 

The bike is fast/light/stiff. Your logic for the bike being shite is just ridiculous. There are a number of satisfied customers on this board and I haven't seen any real complaints from people who have bothered to actually ride the bikes. I've seen plenty of complaints from ignorant people like you and from people who don't like Moto's marketing (which I am in agreement with).


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*We were discussing the frame, not the bike.*

Not to defend the man all that hard but he stated that the frame was "junk" and didn't say anything about the components.

I'm the one that doesn't think all that much of the parts selection  but I am not knocking it, I am just not buying one.


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

I've had a Mercier Draco LTD for two years with no frame issues whatsoever, as a matter of fact I have compared my frame with the 2004 Fuji team, both in terms of ride quality and workmanship, and I really can find no difference between the two. As always, the hotness of this BD\LBS debate confounds me, not that big of a deal. Of course, every time I take my bike to the LBS I have to deal with the attitude (which I know I deserve). 
With two kids and a mortgage, etc., I had to make an economic compromise which otherwise I surely would not have even concieved of.


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

He also spoke of the components and their prices in relation to the price of the complete bike to come up with a price tag of $20 for the frame. Others were mentioning no-name parts used and corners cut to make the bikes affordable. While you may not like the parts selection, I don't think you would characterize them as "cheap" by any means. In comparison to other brand name frames with similar designs and materials, my frame performs well. Just get tired on the bashing of the product. Bashing on sales techniques I'm ok with!


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## Jwh445 (Dec 2, 2002)

I think the old Motobecane is now a company called MBK. They sponsored Team Agritubel in this years' TdF. The ride supplied was the RD1200, if you ask me, a damn fine looking bike. I'm no expert, but I did read this somewhere on the internet. 

This other company bought the name, "Motobecane". MBK is related, somehow, to the old company. I think.???

John


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm the one who mentioned no name parts and cut corners. I wasn't referring specifically to the model originally mentioned but to the general lineup of bikes sold by them. I should have clarified this. By cut corners I don't mean the parts won't work or are dangerous but the quality isn't always there, the finish is sometimes lacking and their longevity is probably not as good. You do get what you pay for and you are paying a very low price for some of these bikes so your expectations shouldn't be too high. OTOH, they are functional bikes and generally won't be the weak link in the cycling stardom equation for our budding Lance wannabes.


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## taikuodo (Aug 7, 2006)

phoehn9111 said:


> I've had a Mercier Draco LTD for two years with no frame issues whatsoever, as a matter of fact I have compared my frame with the 2004 Fuji team, both in terms of ride quality and workmanship, and I really can find no difference between the two. As always, the hotness of this BD\LBS debate confounds me, not that big of a deal. Of course, every time I take my bike to the LBS I have to deal with the attitude (which I know I deserve).
> With two kids and a mortgage, etc., I had to make an economic compromise which otherwise I surely would not have even concieved of.


I don't think a competent LBS should give any customer attitude just because of the bike he rides..


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## b24fsb (Dec 21, 2006)

taikuodo said:


> I don't think a competent LBS should give any customer attitude just because of the bike he rides..


well when a customer comes in time and time again with a walmart road bike that needs service and them complains everytime, you will start to have some attitude. I had this lady come in time and time again to get her bike fixed and finally i lost it one day and said that you reason she had so many problems was because she bought a walmart bike and there quality is lacking so say the least. she got really offended and said that is wasnt a walmart bike, it was a traget bike! ya cause there is a big differnce 

whats the moral of the story.....you get what you pay for, plain and simple!


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## I am The Edge (Jul 27, 2004)

b24fsb said:


> whats the moral of the story.....you get what you pay for, plain and simple!



in the case of the motobecane immortal carbon frame, you are incorrect.

i'd put mine up against any american manufacturer's frame. it will meet or exceed those in performance and workmanship since they are made in the same factories in taiwan.


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## 514Climber (Oct 19, 2005)

*The moral of the story is*



b24fsb said:


> well when a customer comes in time and time again with a walmart road bike that needs service and them complains everytime, you will start to have some attitude. I had this lady come in time and time again to get her bike fixed and finally i lost it one day and said that you reason she had so many problems was because she bought a walmart bike and there quality is lacking so say the least. she got really offended and said that is wasnt a walmart bike, it was a traget bike! ya cause there is a big differnce
> 
> whats the moral of the story.....you get what you pay for, plain and simple!


your outburst, in all likelihood, alienated a customer. She, in turn, will tell anyone who asks to avoid the shop you work at.

Given the means, I would absolutely love to own a 595 Ultra with Lightweight or Lew wheels. One with Dura Ace and another with Record. Yeah, that would be nice indeed.

Unfortunately, that is simply not in the cards for me.

Perhaps this woman can only afford a Target bike. At least she's one more person on a bike, which is fine by me.

Perhaps she has the means to upgrade on her own timetable. If this was the case, you would've been wise to explain to her why the Target/K-Mart/etc bikes are ultimately more costly in terms of down time and repairs than a good commuter. And perhaps she would have purchased that reliable commuter from the shop you work at. And perhaps she would have referred her friends, relatives, and co-workers to your shop because of the patient and friendly staff.

Unless your boss is incredibly short-sighted, your secondary function should be as an ambassador to the shop and the cycling lifestyle.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

I am The Edge said:


> .....i'd put mine up against any american manufacturer's frame. it will meet or exceed those in performance and workmanship since they are made in the same factories in taiwan.


I'm thinking you are overstating the case here. American Manufacturers make their frames in America; otherwise they wouldn't be American Manufacturers would they?


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

*Motobecane = Kinesys frames!*

I think it is not very nice to bash on a name just because it is a name.

Just as equally stupid to give credit to a name... because it's just a name.

Motobecane represents all that; a once renowed bike name bought out to be massively produced.

Same can be said of Iron Horse, GT, Masi, Peugeot, Raleight, even Bontrager...
People think Giant's frame are not good because they are not italian or american but they will by an american bike that was made by Giant for another namebrand....

Motobecane have bad, good and better frames, like Trek or Giant and Specialised.

They are Kinesys frames. 

Question is how do you really justify 200$ Nike shoes, or 800$ K2 skis, or 50$ Levi's jeans, or 3000$ bike frame or 80$ 5oz perfume bottle

I'd swap the seat and fiddle a long time with those bar and stem, but I don't think Motobecane offers are junk...


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## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> Question is how do you really justify 200$ Nike shoes, or 800$ K2 skis, or 50$ Levi's jeans, or 3000$ bike frame or 80$ 5oz perfume bottle
> QUOTE]
> 
> Agree with everything except the Levi's (which I wait for sales and pay only around $35), at least the 501s. I just don't like zippers, and it is hard to find non-Levi button fly jeans. What I can't understand is the jeans that go for triple digit prices.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

I saw somewhere in the MB forum the frames are made by Fuji. If memory serves me I think it was a Fuji SL, in fact. Maybe not all the frames are the same, they were discussing a particular one. OK, I just went back and checked the site, it is a MB Champion, full campy, evenskeleton brakes. Shore looks purty.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

*agreed on the 501*



bwana said:


> tempeteOntheRoad said:
> 
> 
> > Question is how do you really justify 200$ Nike shoes, or 800$ K2 skis, or 50$ Levi's jeans, or 3000$ bike frame or 80$ 5oz perfume bottle
> ...


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

denmikseb said:


> I saw somewhere in the MB forum the frames are made by Fuji. If memory serves me I think it was a Fuji SL, in fact. Maybe not all the frames are the same, they were discussing a particular one. OK, I just went back and checked the site, it is a MB Champion, full campy, evenskeleton brakes. Shore looks purty.



Yeah, a full Campy Record bike with WCS cockpit and wheels. 2000 even is a pretty amazing deal. It is risky business because you don't know how much steerer tube is cut, or what length the stem is. Also, full Dura ace carbon bike for 2000. And if you race and crash, most warranties won't help you out anyways. Even if you bought the campy record bike, took it to get professionally fitted and worked out. You're still saving 1000's. I still wouldn't buy one because Their sales model sucks. They love to talk to you when talking about buying, but questions about bikes won't get you much of a response.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

bwana said:


> I wonder just how much BD thinks the name recognition helps sales. If memory serves, Motobecane wasn't as popular a brand as Gitane or Peugeot (although I owned 2 in the 70s), and the other "brands" they sell, Mercier and Windsor were hardly household names. I guess what I'm getting at is why don't they just come up with their own brand name? As I understand it, these are just generic (NTTAWT) Kinesis frames with decals.


Since you were wondering; I thought I might tell you without the boring Statistics part

We know that the Motobecane name increases sales
I was envolved with Motobecane sales and design since the late 70s and have the numbers on purchases. Over 1 million baby boomers purchased Motos during the bike boom; many more than that wanted a Moto and went for Schwinn, Ross, or Raleigh instead. {Moto was number 4 - but number one in the 'special' group; however more pricy than a Schwiin or Ross]

Baby bommers have driven bike sales since the 1970s and they are still an important segment. Lots of our customers want a Moto and buy it.
We continue to have 6 road bikes in high grade steel {not counting the 3 track models]. Six high grade steel road bikes is more than Trek, Fuji, Specialized, and Giant together - I think. And our sales of that group is growing, many of those buyers are boomers who still want to get out there and do it.. For the younger & more modern material oriented, we have dozens of aluminum models, 6 full carbon models - doubling to 12 CF bikes this coming year, and just adding some Ti in the spring. More and more sales to GenX, GenY and so on - we intend to keep Moto name current with their desires too.

Gitane was never as strong here as Moto -- I was their top dealer several years and found them easy to sell but not the same grade as the Motos of that day.

Peugeot was very good; I was their top dealer in the world for over a decade. The main guy in cycling division was my best friend and best man at my wedding. I had Peugeots made to my spec in Canada after they gave up manufactuing in France. Peugoet is a great name; but never had the bling of Moto for some reason {mainly I think due to the Ben Lawee effect on Moto Design]

I have made and continue to make efforts to get Giitane and Peugeot names in the USA.

What we find is: people who know Motobecane - like it
People who do not know it - go off spec
Baby Boomer sales will slack off in the next decade; but by that time there will be plenty of 'modern' Motobecane purchasers. I have a 20 year plan on bringing Moto back to the position it once had; at this time I am running 3 years ahead of schedule. 

Lots of unsponsored average income ameatur racers on Motos now; including some of the most impressive semi pros to ever ride. Most of those are on FLY class and le Champion SL bikes. For 2009, we will have 9 bikes aimed at that special group -- for XC ATB racing, Road Racing, Cyclo Cross, and Tri; at specs that compete with any brand on earth but at prices that are at least 50% below equal performance bikes
. 
Today you see lots of Motos in Tris, adventure races, XC off road, and road races. By 2010 it will be impossable to not see them in all events. This will back up the tens of thousands that already are seen on the road. 


My plan only goes thru 2023; but it is progressing very well and actually way ahead of forecast.


~~~~

question of who makes our frames
Kinesis makes many
Sunrise makes some
ADK makes some
Advanced makes some
Maxway makes some
all these frame builders make frames for other companies like Fuji, Trek, Specialized, Felt, Giant, Kona, Jamies, Raleigh, Look, etc

Our frame quality is no different than any other bike you see coming out of Taiwan
NO Motobecanes are made in China

Some frame designs are by outside sources, some are by me
but in general, I prefer proven designs and performance over unproven designs
example, I had to design the 29er frames as it is new terriotory
but classic road bike design is proven over decades - do radial departure is likely to improve it

~~~~~

my guess is that many words were mis-spelled - that is not my strong area

mike


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I just can't help but wonder what would happen if you took a dozen or maybe 18 bike frames made from the 4 most common materials, equipped with the exact same gruppos, disguised them by wrapping them with thick layers of duct tape, had 12 or 18 relatively experienced riders test ride them, then pick their favorites.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

MB1 said:


> *Their* frames may not be the best available and I am no fan of the company or *their* business practices but I have never seen a new "junk" Motobecane frame from Bikes Direct.
> 
> I have proven that your spelling has issues, other than your opinion do you have any facts to back up your claim regarding the quality of Motobecane frames?


Not to get technical, but since you insist, he spelled it correctly, he merely used the wrong word.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

wouldn't it be great if an unbiased party could test a few motobecane frames along side some of the leading frames. Why doesn't bicycling.com do some testing?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Since you were wondering; I thought I might tell you without the boring Statistics part
> 
> We know that the Motobecane name increases sales
> I was envolved with Motobecane sales and design since the late 70s and have the numbers on purchases. Over 1 million baby boomers purchased Motos during the bike boom; many more than that wanted a Moto and went for Schwinn, Ross, or Raleigh instead. {Moto was number 4 - but number one in the 'special' group; however more pricy than a Schwiin or Ross]
> ...


Just so you can clarify for people as well...Just because the frames you sell are made i the same factory as others, does not mean they are the same quality as other Bigger name frames coming out of the same factory. I am not saying they are either and you know this as a fact. The same factory can produce a bike of better quality or lower quality and depending what you ask from them.

Also what factory builds your bikes doesn’t always mean what type of ride it will give. If the bike is not designed right or designed on certain parameters that you want your bike to feel like, etc it may or may not compare to others.

What's worn with bikes form China? Cervelo and SCOTT are made in China. Mainland China that is. Isn't Taiwan part of China anyways? Ok, separate but still China? 

Yes, overall Taiwan's bikes are much better. BUT like I said Cervelo and SCOTT and both made in China AND the same factory. Are they the same bike?

There are PLENTY of Carbon Fibers bikes and parts all coming from the same factory that are in looks the same exact bike. Sometimes they are not due to engineering and QC that separates them even though they are the same bike or parts as the big boys. Sometimes it IS the exact same thing, quality and all just you don't pay for the name.

Again BD frames might be the EXCAT Quality and Engineering you find in other bike name bikes or they may not. It does not matter if the same factory makes them, correct??

I just want to be clear on this point.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

b24fsb said:


> well when a customer comes in time and time again with a walmart road bike that needs service and them complains everytime, you will start to have some attitude. I had this lady come in time and time again to get her bike fixed and finally i lost it one day and said that you reason she had so many problems was because she bought a walmart bike and there quality is lacking so say the least. she got really offended and said that is wasnt a walmart bike, it was a traget bike! ya cause there is a big differnce
> 
> whats the moral of the story.....you get what you pay for, plain and simple!


Does not matter. #1 Rule "The customer is always right."

You can always explain this in a nicer way. Or maybe you are not the mech you think you are?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

I am The Edge said:


> in the case of the motobecane immortal carbon frame, you are incorrect.
> 
> i'd put mine up against any american manufacturer's frame. it will meet or exceed those in performance and workmanship since they are made in the same factories in taiwan.


That does not mean SQUAT!

Just because it's made in the same factory that it will have the same quality!

You can have any of these same factories build you frames as well. Depending what you pay is what quality you will get. Say just because your frame was made in the GIANT factory, it does not mean it will have the same QC as a GIANT or ride like one. Even if you pay top dollar for the building. Engineering and design of the frame will have a lot to do with it. You think GIANT is going to build generic frames with their technology? Unless they are getting paid nice $$$ I doubt it.

The same factory that make s Cervelo and SCOTT makes generic frames? Do you think you will get the same bike, QC, etc for $300 generic frame? 

Maybe close, but not the same.

Again same factory does not always mean same frame or same quality.

Let's see what Mike form BD has to say when I question him on this.

But yes, there are frames that are soo close to the big boys in QC and feel that you can buy for cheaper. But they are NOT $200 frames. BUT cheaper!


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

*Thank you for your comments*



DIRT BOY said:


> Just so you can clarify for people as well...Just because the frames you sell are made i the same factory as others, does not mean they are the same quality as other Bigger name frames coming out of the same factory. I am not saying they are either and you know this as a fact. The same factory can produce a bike of better quality or lower quality and depending what you ask from them.
> 
> Also what factory builds your bikes doesn’t always mean what type of ride it will give. If the bike is not designed right or designed on certain parameters that you want your bike to feel like, etc it may or may not compare to others.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments

I would like to point out a few problems with them as I see it

1 - Quality and Spec are two different items. I know of NO FRAME FACTORY that will take or price orders based on level of quality. None - zero! A factory runs at a designed QC level. If you want smooth welds [not a quality issue - just specs - that's say $2] If you want DB tubing not SG - that's say $3 [here againj not a quality issue.

If you go to Kinesis China and say I want the highest QC frame build I can get; they will say 'why not spec frame ffom our factory in Taiwan?' -- Nothing wrong with frames from China; just everyone knows you pay more in Taiwan and get higher QC.

2 - True that who builds frames today has less to do with ride quality or feel than it used to. Design is a factor. However, most designs are very very close. Now a maker can change downtube to 'bi-axle oval' and make up some sales BS to make the frame seem real different. Are you going to fall for that? Even with real actual different designs like in the case of dual suspension bikes; there is more talk than proof.

3 - Main pint I wanted to make in response to "Isn't Taiwan part of China anyways? Ok, separate but still China?"
HELL NO - Taiwan is not like China - not part of China. In Taiwan you can stand in the street and scream the President is a jerk and he sleeps with goats. You can leave the country and go on a vacatiuon whereever you like. Your google search is not filtered by the government. You can pick where to send your kids to school. We should all want China to be taken over by Taiwan - not the other way around. {and I think that will happen in a way -- thru increased commerce}

You are correct that which high grade Asian factory makes your frame is not that important as long as QC is spot on; but to me it matters as we have always paid for the best and then been attacked as 'cheap crap from China'. Truth is; I could save money by taking Motobecanes to China; Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, and others surely do. But as we have to prove our quality more than others due to lower prices AND due to my attitude about QC - we will keep Moto 100% in Taiwan for now. 

A good example of this is our first Ti frame bike:
I could get frame in China for less than half the cost of the one I will be using from Taiwan. But I can tell a real difference in the two; maybe not all customers could; maybe I could have them painted to hind sins; maybe a lower price would move more; but the Taiwan Ti frame is just so nice....


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

gradosu said:


> wouldn't it be great if an unbiased party could test a few motobecane frames along side some of the leading frames. Why doesn't bicycling.com do some testing?


GREAT IDEA

I have pressed Bicycling for 10 years to do 'shoot outs'

I am not affraid of that!

Most riders just getting serious want to spend $1000
Compare what you can get with $1000 across the industry; that is my idea

Have you seen what $1000 in a 2008 Trek Road Bike gets you?

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/road/1_series/15/

I have to wonder if a moving up racer on a budget would be more competitive on this?
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp420_aug_only_sale.htm


Anyway - Dave House is talking about doing a shoot out site for ROAD and DECLINE
you can bet we have offered to send him lots of test bikes


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> True that who builds frames today has less to do with ride quality or feel than it used to. Design is a factor. However, most designs are very very close. Now a maker can change downtube to 'bi-axle oval' and make up some sales BS to make the frame seem real different. Are you going to fall for that? Even with real actual different designs like in the case of dual suspension bikes; there is more talk than proof.


Well, you got that right. Marketing BS masquerading as engineer-speak seems to be the way to sell bikes nowadays. Your web site isn't entirely free of it that either, but at least there's not pages and pages of that dreary stuff.

On another tack: I appreciate your openness, especially in telling us who makes your frames. That information is hard to come by for the average consumer, and I wonder if potential buyers wouldn't actually appreciate that disclosure on your (or anyone else's) web site. But perhaps out of 1,000 site visitors, it would be a positive for 10 people and run off the rest. I'd be interested in hearing your take on that.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

*Bicycling Mag*

might lose some of their big buck advertisers in a fair comparison of several different brands. Could you imagine what would happen if Bicycling told Trek: "Yeah, we want to do a step by step comparison of your $1000 bike against Motobecane's $1000 bike." It will never happen.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

wim said:


> On another tack: I appreciate your openness, especially in telling us who makes your frames. That information is hard to come by for the average consumer, and I wonder if potential buyers wouldn't actually appreciate that disclosure on your (or anyone else's) web site. But perhaps out of 1,000 site visitors, it would be a positive for 10 people and run off the rest. I'd be interested in hearing your take on that.



I am in favor of it: Just like weights:

I wish everyone posted true source of frames, final assembliers, and exact weights. Of course, without a standard or industry leadership; no one company can change the system.

However, I can tell you many companies try to hind that data from not only the public; but the dealers, and even their own employees. I have personnly seen employees get in trouble for 'slipping out' who the soiurce of frames was.

Example: new Cannondales from China - I know that the dealers and many of the reps have not been told who makes those. My guess is; they will not be told either. And I would guess Cannondale and Dealers will go out of their way to keep it unknown.

I would be in favor of some industry standards on things like this - but my guess is; it will not happen. On forums it is one thing; only a small percentage of buyers come on these forums. But in magazines and on the salesfloor -- I do not think companies would favor full disclosure. {and of course, some things must be kept secret, but way too much is considered private in my opinion}


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

denmikseb said:


> might lose some of their big buck advertisers in a fair comparison of several different brands. Could you imagine what would happen if Bicycling told Trek: "Yeah, we want to do a step by step comparison of your $1000 bike against Motobecane's $1000 bike." It will never happen.


That's a great idea!

Lets take the fastest rider in the world that rode a Trek last year and put him on the Trek 1.5 that Mike linked and than we can take the fastest rider in the world that rode a Moto last year and put him on the Le Champ.

Who would win? We could make it a crit, a one day classic, a Grand tour, flat and fast or vertical.


Mike loves to talk out of both sides of his mouth. On one side he goes on about how very little, if any, difference there is between a $200 frame and a $2000 frame.

However, he also likes to point out how superior a $600 group is over a $300 group.

There is absolutely no proof that would suggest that a $1000, ultegra equipped Moto would out perform a $1000, Tiagra equipped Trek.

It is all marketing hype and I'm sure he knows this better than any of us. He just takes every op to push his own product. Self promotion is what makes him a great salesman!


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> I wish everyone posted true source of frames, final assembliers, and exact weights. Of course, without a standard or industry leadership; no one company can change the system.


Thanks, I appreciate your informative response. I knew that most everyone tries to hide the source of their off-shore frames, but I wasn't aware of how much the industry is together on this.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

Lifelover said:


> Mike loves to talk out of both sides of his mouth. On one side he goes on about how very little, if any, difference there is between a $200 frame and a $2000 frame.
> 
> However, he also likes to point out how superior a $600 group is over a $300 group.



The difference between a 200 frame and a 2000 frame? about $1800 I think. 

Have you ever ridden a moto before? How many of us on this forum can say 'I need the lightest, stiffest, most aero frame possible because my fitness is so good, my bike is the only weakness'. I ride a Trek 5500 and love it. I know that it is quality because of the pedigree and who has ridden them. 

I think bragging about a better component group is less difficult to do. Is there anyone who will argue that Tiagra is better than ultegra?

By the way, I don't own a moto, never have, and my impressions of bikesdirect is a little tarnished because of poor communication on their end. But I think it is unfair to rip into someone's company because their bikes cost less than others.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Thanks for your comments
> 
> I would like to point out a few problems with them as I see it
> 
> ...


I meant the quailty of material and and what not.

Like there are differnt grades of aluminum and carbon fiber.

These will also effect price and the overlal quality of the frame and it's feel/ride/stifness, etc.

I am sure those Motot frames are not using the same quality and they are not as HQ say as a Specilalized, TREK or Colonago.

But if the frames you sell are good quality, it's a nice chance for someone to get a good bike with good componenets for a good price.

My advice to anyone loooking to get a bike for the long term is not go with frame choice first, then componets.

hey, look at Lightspeed. They were selling Pedal Force frames with thier paint job for $2000 when the public can get them for $500 andf thos are VERY nice frames. What happend? The public was aware of this and they stopped selling them! :thumbsup:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> GREAT IDEA
> 
> I have pressed Bicycling for 10 years to do 'shoot outs'
> 
> ...


I actucally owned one a TREK 1000 bike (same frame as the onew you posted). The frames are pretty nice, ride well and the overall quality is very good.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

JayTee said:


> Different company now completely. No connection whatsoever to the old French manufacturer, other than the purchase of the long-defunct name to smack on mass production entry level frames. NTTAWWT... whatever floats one's boat and whatnot. But I just hate to see someone think that they are buying the latest in the "Motobecane line" or the latest example of "Masi heritage" etc. etc. in purchasing the current bikes e-marketed under those old names.


Well, I wouldn't call them "entry level" but otherwise I'd pretty much agree. I looked them over pretty well at the Sea Otter a couple of years ago and they were built SUPER LIGHT. I don't know what the reliability of those frames are but I'm sure they have to be somewhat reasonable or they'd be sued out of their skins. I think that it's a Canadian registered firm if memory serves.

There isn't much to a bicycle. The Chinese and Taiwanese factories don't have any trouble making bikes that are as good as anything Europe has to offer below the level of Colnago, Pinarello, Time, Look or Trek Madone. Even the workmanship is getting to be as good as anything you'll find anywhere else.

If I wanted a good bike at a fantastic price I'd think really hard on the Motobecane.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Mel Erickson said:


> Most of the people buying these bikes would have no idea this was once a respected bike company in the 60's and 70's. To them it would be just another French name by a manufacturer trying to project a european image. Gee, I guess that's exactly what it is.


Let's remember that most of the bikes sold by the French here were perfectly awful junk. Motobecane gained its reputation mostly from two or three models at the very top such as the Grand Jubilee and the Super Mirage. Today these bikes would be rated very middle of the road. Peugeot had the same sort of thing with the PX-10. These rare bikes were quite passable for their time but are barely adequate today and most of the Peugeots people see are the junk of the universe. Similar with Gitane, Mercier and others.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> I meant the quailty of material and and what not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> I actucally owned one a TREK 1000 bike (same frame as the onew you posted). The frames are pretty nice, ride well and the overall quality is very good.


No question about it! There are lots of aluminum frames made by sunrise and kinesis in China that are very nice. This level frame does not compare well to the Taiwan made Moto LSL or Fuji Team SL frame. But there is no question you can get many happy miles out of an entry level aluminum frame.

And I would say the same about the Sora/Tiagra on the Trek 1000 - very good components to start with. Not the same level as Ultegra; but very good stuff.

The nice thing is that Shimano has really raised the bar compared to the 'old days'. Now riders get nicely finished well functioning components even at the enry level. 

The question is: if you are a rider without a sponsor and with limited funds, do you want to do this on an LSL or a Trek 1000 [now Trek 1.5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WCRk8bvNiE


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

gradosu said:


> While I have no personal experience with the 'new generation' motobecane I think it is fair to say that if one gets the fit dialed in, a bike from bikesdirect would be more than plenty for most any rider out there.


I think that this can't be stressed to highly. I have a lot of very top of the line and expensive bikes. But you know what? The kid with an old Gitane his father used to use is having as much fun and I do.

I wouldn't buy from Bikes Direct for one reason only - I prefer to support my local shops whenever possible.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

does bd have a crash replacement program?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> does bd have a crash replacement program?



well kind of

What we do is sell any customer crash replacement stuff at cost all the time

Examples - I know of myself , 1 WCS wheel, 1 AC420 wheel, 1 frame, and 2 forks in the last week or so that we sold to customers at dealer cost [or below]

I have thought a lot about making this program more public
however, I am concerned about those that would take advantage and want a new crank everyweek 'due to crash' -- but really be wanting to buy for other reasons [including ebay]

So in general, we make a call from the tone of the e-mail or call the customer and talk about it.

Often, if not always, on these replacement parts we lose money; sometimes we even do complete rebuilds for free. that is not really the point; the point is keeping our customers happy and on the road.

I am very sensitive to unsponsored 'not too rich' ameatuer racers. We have tons of those in Tri, Crit, Cross, XC, Track, and especially a lot of adventure racers, {as the Fly series bikes are the best adventure racing bikes you can get}

So the answer is Yes; but we do not promote it as a sales tool.

Mike


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> DIRT BOY said:
> 
> 
> > I meant the quailty of material and and what not.
> ...


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> bikesdirect said:
> 
> 
> > I am also sure they get better pricing then you do as well so they can get a better frame than you do for the same amout of money.
> ...


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

DIRT BOY said:


> bikesdirect said:
> 
> 
> > I am also sure they get better pricing then you do as well so they can get a better frame than you do for the same amout of money.
> ...


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

Mike, are you considering building a Full chorus bike? Also, it would be helpful on the website if specs for each size of bike was listed, like crank arm length, stem length, handlebar width.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

gradosu said:


> DIRT BOY said:
> 
> 
> > Just because a company like Trek or Specialized purchases a frame for the same amount of money as 'motobecane' doesn't mean that they sell the frame for the same price as 'motobecane' would. The large companies have huge overheads to satisfy. You're paying a lot of people's salaries when buying from a giant bike company.
> ...


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

gradosu said:


> Mike, are you considering building a Full chorus bike? Also, it would be helpful on the website if specs for each size of bike was listed, like crank arm length, stem length, handlebar width.


Thanks for the question

When the Euro returns to a sane level against the USD - we will do more Record and Chorus {Campy prices in Euro} 

Current le Champion Team is our last Campy deal until currency changes some

We need to add a lot to our site; including that extra data you site; just a matter of time and man power; but its on our to do list

thanks

Mike


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> Thanks for your comments
> 
> A good example of this is our first Ti frame bike:
> I could get frame in China for less than half the cost of the one I will be using from Taiwan. But I can tell a real difference in the two; maybe not all customers could; maybe I could have them painted to hind sins; maybe a lower price would move more; but the Taiwan Ti frame is just so nice....


What frame or bike are you referring to? I don't see a Titanium bike on your website. I could have missed it though.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Tom Kunich said:


> gradosu said:
> 
> 
> > If you think that Made in Taiwan means junk you're seriously out of date.
> ...


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## ThaFurnace (Nov 16, 2005)

I work for one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world, I would like to point out a few things:

1. Taiwan produces world class goods at world class prices. We have suppliers that supply pulleys, torque converters, and other engine components with less than 1ppm. That's absolutely stellar. I don't know why many Americans, to this day, assume that if it's not made in the lower 48, it's crap. To be honest, I could make a case for the exact opposite. 

2. The myth that the same factory can produce different quality levels. This is simply not the case. Taiwanese manufacturing is extremely lean and process rigorous. These are contract services, and the processes, employees, and raw materials are the same. BD and other smaller manufacturers use the same levels of materials as the big boys. They can, of course, choose between different weaves and grades of CF, however the quality of the different grades will be the same whether it goes into a Giant or a Moto. The only area I can think of that you could "skimp" on is the tooling & molds. Again, the factory will have ONE process for all of its frames. Think about it - could you really go to a manufacturer and ask him for a price break if they produced a frame with 20% more inclusions, and 30% looser tolerances? Absolutely not. However, which frames BD chooses to reject back to the supplier for whatever issues is their issue. This could be a difference between them and the big 4.

3. How does a supplier price its product?

1. Raw Materials
2. Process Time (curing cycle time, trim, set-up, etc)
3. Packaging
4. SG&A
5. Reasonable Profit

4. How can BD get the same price as Trek and Giant? Remember that it's not necessarily the total yearly volume that determines price. It's all about lot sizing. If BD has close to the same run size as Trek or Giant, the supplier won't care whose bikes they are running down the production line that day, and the pricing will be close to the same. Depending on the life of the mold, BD might have a higher price per frame in mold amortization, but that should be fairly minimal when you think about the BD distribution model. They have a much less complex supply chain, and have a much more simple distribution model - essentially "Factory-direct". 


Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with BD, nor have I purchased anything from them. I am simply a guy who knows a thing or two about suppliers, quality, manufacturing, and supply chain.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> DIRT BOY said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the difference in what we pay for frames vs Specialized or Trek is in the less than 3% range. On some we may get a bit lower price; on some they might get a bit lower.
> ...


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## ThaFurnace (Nov 16, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> bikesdirect said:
> 
> 
> > So you are saying your Moto is on par or better than the S-Works carbon frames?
> ...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

ThaFurnace said:


> I work for one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world, I would like to point out a few things:
> 
> 1. Taiwan produces world class goods at world class prices. We have suppliers that supply pulleys, torque converters, and other engine components with less than 1ppm. That's absolutely stellar. I don't know why many Americans, to this day, assume that if it's not made in the lower 48, it's crap. To be honest, I could make a case for the exact opposite.
> 
> ...


Sounds right. But there are different grades of carbon like you said. Do you think BD is buying the same quality CF that the top bikes in the indusrty get on their budget?

Or are they buying lower grade CF and building bikes with it? I know TREK's Madon is using on of the highest grade CF around, right?

There is High Moduls, SHM and other grade right? They cost more as you go up, correct?

BD buying frames of the same quality?

So I have a question. I have seen parts coming from the same factory for parts fro one of the larger component makers. Then generic stuff form the same factory that is not up to par in performance or QC.

So what's that? Also several generic companies putting out CF stuff under different brads. Many times you can tell the differnce in thier quality by the naked eye. yet they come from the same factory?

Thery parts will not have the same perforamce. Say like BB or chainrings? Same factory spittin out the same generic cranks. Yet ride some and you will see the differnce sometimes pretty quickly.


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## ThaFurnace (Nov 16, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> Sounds right. But there are different grades of carbon like you said. Do you think BD is buying the same quality CF that the top bikes in the indusrty get on their budget?
> 
> Or are they buying lower grade CF and building bikes with it? I know TREK's Madon is using on of the highest grade CF around, right?
> 
> ...


To some of your key points:

BD will have access to the supplier's raw material. Do they pick the highest, most expensive grade carbon? Probably not. Do they use the same carbon as some of the big 4's entry level bikes? Probably. 

Again, the complexity of the molds is a pretty big deal, and the likes of Giant may spend more time developing their molds, while BD may rely on the suppliers expertise to build a mold. Big bike OEM's might also have more refined geometry.

I think you might be referring to gray market goods. These are likely parts that originally did not meet customer requirements, however instead of scrapping them, the factory sells them as "generic" through other channels. This is where the poor quality reputation comes to mind. 

As previously mentioned, the rejection criteria may be different for an S-Works frame and a Moto, but what those differences are we'll never know. 

I do think BD has been very open in this post. A potential buyer has more information on the origin of their frames than they would get from anyone else. Whether it's the right bike for them is their choice.

Isn't it great to be a consumer?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

ThaFurnace said:


> I think you might be referring to gray market goods. These are likely parts that originally did not meet customer requirements, however instead of scrapping them, the factory sells them as "generic" through other channels. This is where the poor quality reputation comes to mind.


This i know. But take for instance FSA and Token. From what I heared (I may be wrong) FSA and Tokens stuff come from the same facoty for cranks. FSA cranks are nicer and beter pefroming than TOKEN.

Now TOKEN re-badges OEM stuff with thier name. Lot's of stuff from them is top notch. Others stuff the QC SUCKS!


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

So, how about a 2000 bike with full campy record and WCS everything else? are these parts bogus?


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Same could be said for any manufacturer in the 60's and 70's. They all had a lineup of bikes with a few top end models but most of the sales being middle to bottom numbers, including Schwinn. French bikes were as good as any others back then and most bikes sold in the 60's and 70's don't compare favorably with todays bikes. There was limited tubing choices (4130 steel being the most common) and component groups were of varying quality, top names being Campy and Suntour. Some French equipment was not very good (most of the Simplex line) but it worked, for a while. Drivetrains were very forgiving (when 10 speeds really meant 10 total combinations).


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

gradosu said:


> So, how about a 2000 bike with full campy record and WCS everything else? are these parts bogus?


Correct me if I misunderstood your post, but why would these parts be bogus? If nothing else, this thread made it fairly clear how little you pay for a decent frame nowadays if you buy a boatload of them. It's not like back in the day when the frame was the treasured, keep-forever heart of the bike, and the most expensive component by far.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

stated a few posts ago 
"This i know. But take for instance FSA and Token. From what I heared (I may be wrong) FSA and Tokens stuff come from the same facoty for cranks. FSA cranks are nicer and beter pefroming than TOKEN.

Now TOKEN re-badges OEM stuff with thier name. Lot's of stuff from them is top notch. Others stuff the QC SUCKS!"

I total agree with you wim, I'm just asking DB.

Does anyone know how much it costs for a distributor to purchase a full campy record group?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Does anyone know how much it costs for a distributor to purchase a full campy record group_


Got it. And you ask a very interesting question which is probably going to go unanswered.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

I've found the group alone going for 2200 on the intertubes. Did mike and bikesdirect highjack a truck carrying them or something?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

gradosu said:


> So, how about a 2000 bike with full campy record and WCS everything else? are these parts bogus?


Of course not

I do not even know of any such thing; nor would we be a part of it

every part on every bike we sell is what we say it is - no knock offs, seconds, or even gray market

very simple


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

gradosu said:


> Does anyone know how much it costs for a distributor to purchase a full campy record group?


Why would I give out dealer info on pricing?

Nothing wrong with the 90% of the parts on these bikes. Some parts are just real generic stuff, but not biggie. Like saddles and seatpost on some models.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

wim said:


> If nothing else, this thread made it fairly clear how little you pay for a decent frame nowadays if you buy a boatload of them.


Correct. If you buy even top quailty frames the pricing is pretty good.

Look these are decent frames at best for most of them. Regradless of what BD dsays, these are not on par with Spec S-Works frames.

But without a big brands name on the bikes, the cost comes way, way down for the the same quality on middle to lower end bikes.

Think of buying generic medicine or what nots...

Same factory, but not always the same quality!


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

gradosu said:


> I've found the group alone going for 2200 on the intertubes. Did mike and bikesdirect highjack a truck carrying them or something?



There is a big price difference for most manufactured things based on the number of the things you plan to buy. I have seen this firsthand, and it really is staggering. If the group costs the general public $2200, and they are buying one at a time, some bicycle seller could probably get them for less than $800 if they are buying 5000 at a time. Potentially much less than $800 each.

I saw something similar on hydraulic cylinders once. If we wanted to buy one, it was $350 from the manufacturer. If we bought 50,000 a year, they were about $30 each.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

DIRT BOY do you work for/own a bike shop? 

The bike direct frames probably aren't on par with S-work frames. Not many frames are. 

I don't know if the generic medicine is a good argument. Generic medicines are often identical to brand name medicines, it is just that brand name medicines do not have to go generic for I believe 5 years. 

Let's say bikesdirect pays 900 for the group, 300 for the frame and 400 for the wheels and cockpit. Another 60 for shipping. For a 2000 bike, this only gives them 340 to cover the other expenses of advertisement and the rest of the over head. As opposed to a shop that has much greater overhead, they would sell the same bike for a higher price. Does this make the bike sold from the LBS a better bike?


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

gradosu said:


> ....Let's say bikesdirect pays 900 for the group, 300 for the frame and 400 for the wheels and cockpit. Another 60 for shipping. For a 2000 bike, this only gives them 340 to cover the other expenses of advertisement and the rest of the over head. As opposed to a shop that has much greater overhead, they would sell the same bike for a higher price. Does this make the bike sold from the LBS a better bike?



If you search some of Mike's post in the Moto forum you will see that the frame cost is closer to $50 than $300


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

Lifelover said:


> If you search some of Mike's post in the Moto forum you will see that the frame cost is closer to $50 than $300


Fifty $ is closer to the frame price for ALL bike brands manufacured in Taiwan than $300. It is the bike sellers OVERHEAD that has the greatest bearing on the final customer cost. Brick and mortar businesses with several employees have an extremely high overhead. They also have high inventory cost. They must keep some bikes on display in the shop, and in any business a product that is sitting in inventory is costing that business, until the product is sold. I can see the writting on the wall. The LBS better be planning NOW how to meet the low prices of online sellers, or he will not be able to compete and will go out of business. You can see it happening now, there are more online bike sellers than, say, a year ago, and this trend will continue. Consumer demand will increase for all online businesses, and lessen for brick and mortar, due to the price. It doesn't mean online products are inferior because they cost less, but that the online business is extremely efficient, compared to brick and mortar. I almost forgot to mention, online shops also don't require the middlemen, another cost cutter. To those of you who say, "You get what you pay for", you are correct. At an LBS you pay for the service and knowledge of the employees, but you also pay for the building rent, electricity, insurance, warehousing and the additional shipping, local taxes, etc, etc. The best business practice is the one that most satisfies the customer, and online shopping is gaining more satisfied customers daily.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

denmikseb said:


> Fifty $ is closer to the frame price for ALL bike brands manufacured in Taiwan than $300. It is the bike sellers OVERHEAD that has the greatest bearing on the final customer cost. Brick and mortar businesses with several employees have an extremely high overhead. They also have high inventory cost. They must keep some bikes on display in the shop, and in any business a product that is sitting in inventory is costing that business, until the product is sold. I can see the writting on the wall. The LBS better be planning NOW how to meet the low prices of online sellers, or he will not be able to compete and will go out of business. You can see it happening now, there are more online bike sellers than, say, a year ago, and this trend will continue. Consumer demand will increase for all online businesses, and lessen for brick and mortar, due to the price. It doesn't mean online products are inferior because they cost less, but that the online business is extremely efficient, compared to brick and mortar. I almost forgot to mention, online shops also don't require the middlemen, another cost cutter. To those of you who say, "You get what you pay for", you are correct. At an LBS you pay for the service and knowledge of the employees, but you also pay for the building rent, electricity, insurance, warehousing and the additional shipping, local taxes, etc, etc. The best business practice is the one that most satisfies the customer, and online shopping is gaining more satisfied customers daily.


Very well said
And as a seller that operates both stores and on-line sites, I can tell you that the overhead difference is huge.

On the OE cost of full aluminum frames cost for ALL BRANDS
In China - cost is $8 to $40 depending on style & tubing etc
In Taiwan - cost is $25 to $80 -- 
This would be for Road or Hardtails -- not full suspension; which all over the place in design and cost.Funny thing ~~ everyone knows Carbon Fiber and Ti frames cost more than Aluminum; but few realize that high grade steel is also more than aluminum. {I am not saying which is best; each have their place}

On distribution costs for every level of the channel, bicycles are not too different than any other consumer product.


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## denmikseb (Aug 7, 2005)

Lifelover said:


> That's a great idea!
> 
> Lets take the fastest rider in the world that rode a Trek last year and put him on the Trek 1.5 that Mike linked and than we can take the fastest rider in the world that rode a Moto last year and put him on the Le Champ.
> 
> ...


I don't believe the discussion was about the riders, but the bikes. I bet Trek's best rider has never touched a $1000 Trek.


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## fikto (May 25, 2007)

*I just rode a Moto*

It's funny how this MB "controversy" continues to rage. I actually just came back from riding my Le Champion Force which has about 1,000 miles on it. It has been a terrific bike so far with zero problems. I really can't see why BD's low prices are a mystery. The bikes have practically no marketing costs attached, the paint jobs are simple (but nice), and if you compare the various models, you can see that they share many of the same components, wheels, etc., further cutting the costs. My bike has a full SRAM Force group, Ritchey Protocol wheels, stem and bars and a Cane Creek headset. The SL alum. frame seems to be identical to a Fuji Team and judging from these posts, probably is.

I could probably get a Team with a similar group for about $2500. I got this on sale for $1500. That doesn't seem to be too out of wack considering that the bike also comes right out of the box in "factory" condition and has to be fiinally assembled by the purchaser.

One gives up a few things when buying on line, namely the service to build and maintain the bike, not to mention the peace of mind that comes with that. You also will not be riding a "name brand." But those things don't come for free. If you can live without that stuff, then Bikes Direct is a good deal.


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## gradosu (May 17, 2007)

I've heard reports of poor assembly, Bad cable routing and the like. Also, i've heard that many of the threads (BB in particular) are not assembled with any grease. Did you have any of these problems? $1500 for a full force bike is pretty ridiculous.


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## fikto (May 25, 2007)

I had no such problems. However, the front derailleur cable was not attached and I ended up repositioning it. All the cables needed to be adjusted as well. Otherwise, you put on the front fork, bars, seat post and that's it. The bike arrives as it would at an LBS, so if you can do basic tasks, it's no big deal. But I would not recommend building it if you have never worked on a bike before. Better to spend the $50 and let a shop do it. Overall, I was and remain very satisfied and the price cannot be touched.


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## ahhchon (Apr 16, 2007)

i think that the average new comer or even experienced rider should do very well with a moto. 

personally, i have NEVER owned or ridden one. i have 3 cannondales, 2 treks and 2 novara bikes. i am very happy with all of them.

my most recent purchase, a 2007 system six team si1 is one hell of a bike. personally, i don't think i think there would be a difference in performance if i rode the same components on a caad9 frame. the only difference is that the ride would not be as harsh i guess. 

it would have been better for me to get a frame that was less stiff, seeing that i only weigh about 125.

that's the problem right there. too many people when going to purchase a bike gets sucked into the "best" product. this frame is the "best" because it's the stiffest of them all etc. alot of people just won't realize that they DO NOT need the stiffest frame. in fact a frame that isn't as stuff might do them damn well. the same goes for the person who gets sucked into getting an all carbon frame because aluminum frames are too harsh.. what if he weights 200 + an alum frame might be better for him. 

the reason i know all this is not because i regret purchasing my system six. i love it to death. it is because i work at a bike shop and i am constantly correcting customers on what they need. i have people coming in looking for full carbon bikes willing to dish out the money. i have them leave with a 1400 dollar bike that suits their current and future needs. if they need "more" later on they can spend more. 

the great thing is that my store LOVES that i do that. not only do they know that the customer left with what they needed, plus lights, shoes, pedals, cages, helmets etc.. the actual important stuff, they realize that when that customer needs a new bike they'll come right back because they know that my store isn't going to take them for all they are worth.

best of luck to all purchasing a new bike.. you're not a pro, don't go spending pro money.. unless you can afford it of course.


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## vpkb (Jul 30, 2007)

my own private idaho, you need to chill out. this is a bike board not an english class.

please use punctuations would sound a lot better than, "is english your third language", but you're excused since opinion is like an a**hole, everybody has one

i read his his post and understood it completely, so just learn to pretend the punctuations are there


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