# 3T - Made in China/Taiwan - That sucks



## fabsroman

How pissed am I. I'm trying to build my C50 almost 100% Italian, and I buy the 3T bars and stem after reading on their website about their Italian heritage, expecting them to be Made in Italy. Well, I got the bars and stem today. Bars are made in China, stem is made in Taiwan. Campy needs to start making stems and bars. The only thing that wasn't going to be Italian was the hubs because I couldn't find some 32 hole rims I liked to use on the PowerTap so I went with 28 hole Ambrosio carbon rims. Oh well, I guess I am going to live with this bar and stem combo for a while, at least until I can get the Cinelli Ram bar situation straightened out with the airbrush artist. Trying to get a build perfect takes forever.


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## tidi

*i know what you mean*

i put my energy towards parts made in past times a bit to get around this souless manufacturing situation. i know i'm gonna get slandered on here for this but i gotta say my bit. i completely understand where your coming from.


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## fabsroman

Don't worry, I've already been called a racist for wanting to build a 100% Italian bike, even though I am 100% Italian.

Just trying to find 28 hole Italian hubs is tough. I know Miele makes them, but actually finding them to buy is impossible. I tried to buy some Gipiemme rims to use to build around the PowerTap, and that was a pain too.

Honestly, I feel as though I should just fly over to Italy, talk to all the Italian bike manufacturers, and then start my own US retail store for their parts with a presence on the internet. I cannot believe it is this difficult to find these parts. The US military should just keep its top secret information with these Italian manufacturers.


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## Ride-Fly

fabsroman said:


> How pissed am I. I'm trying to build my C50 almost 100% Italian, and I buy the 3T bars and stem after reading on their website about their Italian heritage, expecting them to be Made in Italy. Well, I got the bars and stem today. Bars are made in China, stem is made in Taiwan. Campy needs to start making stems and bars. The only thing that wasn't going to be Italian was the hubs because I couldn't find some 32 hole rims I liked to use on the PowerTap so I went with 28 hole Ambrosio carbon rims. Oh well, I guess I am going to live with this bar and stem combo for a while, at least until I can get the Cinelli Ram bar situation straightened out with the airbrush artist. Trying to get a build perfect takes forever.


fabs, i know what you mean but it seems we can't get away from "italian company, made in china/taiwan". for me, the most important thing is the frame and then fork. most forks are alos made in asia as well. but at least there are still some frames made in italy or france. hell, even campy parts are not made in italy anymore. from what i've read, they are all made in romania. i think it is impossible to have 100% made in italy bike. i bought the 3t doric seatpost because 3t is an italian company but i also knew that they were made in asia. i will probably get the 3t ergonova bar and team stem to finish my build. btw, my 2 campy 11 speed groups came in today so i will be busy building next week!! shyzza howdy!


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## FondriestFan

Fabs, you are going to have a hard time with bars/posts/stems.

These are almost always made in Taiwan or China.

Deda, Cinelli, Stella Azzurra, 3T.

Same thing.


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## fabsroman

FondriestFan said:


> Fabs, you are going to have a hard time with bars/posts/stems.
> 
> These are almost always made in Taiwan or China.
> 
> Deda, Cinelli, Stella Azzurra, 3T.
> 
> Same thing.


Yeah, the first set of Cinelli Ram bars I bought for the Cristallo say Made in Italy on them. Every freaking one thereafter, 3 total, say Designed in Italy. I guess I'm just going to have to live with the Italian names being made somewhere other than Italy. The Arte frame says Designed in Italy too.

I'm going to go and build my front wheel now.


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## shaochieh

Did you try the brand Deda?


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## mriddle

*Deda*

Fabs,

For several years now I have been using Cinelli Ram stem/bar combo on my bikes. After converting to the new 11 speed levers I wanted more adjustability w/the placement and purchased a Deda Presa carbon bar w/a deda Nero Zero stem. Both are new for 2009. 
These products are 100% Italian bliss. I can't tell you how impressed I am with them. Deda now has them in black or white, not cheap but really nice. I purchased from Como.


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## fabsroman

Thanks for the info. Deda it is going to be then. The 3T stuff wasn't really cheap either, and the only reason I went with it was because I liked the red accents, the bars were somewhat ergonomic with a flat top, and I thought they were made in Italy. I'm going to check out Deda and if they have anything I like these 3T bars and stem are going back.

I'm wondering if ITM is another option that is actually made in Italy.


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## corky

Fabs...... Deda zero100, loads of Colnago owners use the stem, I love the bars, the shape suits me.... check 'em out.


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## tom_h

My 3T Arx Team stem and Ergosum Team handlebars are both made in Taiwan.

The fit & finish is excellent. Taiwan has some of the most advanced manufacturing capability in the world. 

Unlike, say, mainland China, where the more price sensitive goods are often manufactured. In fact, certain Taiwanese products are often out-sourced to China due to cost pressures. With the proper oversight, China can make good products, but their technology is often a step or two behind Taiwan.


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## FondriestFan

Deda's made in Taiwan too. 

All these brands are made in Taiwan. 

I used to get parts directly from the factory there through a contact. Those Pinarello MoST bars? Made by Trigon. I could get them for about $150 or so. Stem, post, etc., same thing. All made there.

One seatpost I ordered was identical to my Deda Blackstick, except without the logo.

Trigon makes great stuff though. Their frames are excellent.


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## Daddy yo yo

well, "made in ..." only says that a certain amount of the added value was added in that very country. it doesn't mean that it's 100% made there. if a manufacturer says that his products are made in italy, only a certain part of the value has to be added added in italy. parts can still come from all around the world...

so, get over it. live with it. accept it. it doesn't matter. the most important thing is that you have a beautiful bike. it doesn't matter whether or not all parts are 100% italian. btw, there's a fabulous eps on weight weenies, reddish colour scheme with 3t parts. just drop dead gorgeous! :thumbsup:


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## MERAKMAN

Hate to say this but I seriously have doubts over the origin of manufacture of the whole C50 range. Why go to an English BB? I don't buy the reason given that its to make it 'easier' for Colnago's and dealers to hold all the same unified stocks and due to consumer demand. Call me a cynic but I smell a rat about the whole going English BB change...


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## ClassicSteel71

Use Deda and get over it..



I can't judge, I have French pedals and an Asian fork.


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## FondriestFan

ClassicSteel71 said:


> Use Deda and get over it..
> 
> I can't judge, I have French pedals and an Asian fork.


All I have are Deda Supernaturals anyway. Very happy with them.


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## rdolson

What about ITM? I had the same "All Italian" drive for my MXL. I was able to get an ITM bar that was made in italy, along with a Colnogo pantographed ITM stem, also made in italy.

I tried my best, but I still had to settle for some non-italian parts, the DT spokes and nipples, the look pedals, dugast tubulars, thompson masterpiece seatpost, CK headset, brooks team pro ti seat. Oh yeah, and the irish/norwegan owner.


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## wankski

eer, i thought the reynolds ouzo pro was made in US?


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## ClassicSteel71

wankski said:


> eer, i thought the reynolds ouzo pro was made in US?


Could be. I was assuming Asia, but could be wrong.


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## ClassicSteel71

Colnago w/ ITM. I can't confirm where its made. It says Italy but who knows these days. I will say this the stem is 92 grams and stiff as morning wood...


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## FondriestFan

wankski said:


> eer, i thought the reynolds ouzo pro was made in US?


The bars? No. Made in Taiwan.


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## wankski

FondriestFan said:


> The bars? No. Made in Taiwan.


naw, i meant the forks... maybe they moved to the east, but pretty sure when ouzo pro forks came out they were US...??
http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.asp?PART_NUM_SUB='2705-10


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## rogger

Italian manufacturers lost their "soul" when they entered the euro and the Italians couldn't keep their industry seem competetive by constantly devaluating the Lira. You may thank an unseemingly large amount of Italian governments for keeping those companies artificially alive for long enough that you can today festoon your bike with Italian brand names even though they are made elsewhere.


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## FondriestFan

rogger said:


> Italian manufacturers lost their "soul" when they entered the euro and the Italians couldn't keep their industry seem competetive by constantly devaluating the Lira. You may thank an unseemingly large amount of Italian governments for keeping those companies artificially alive for long enough that you can today festoon your bike with Italian brand names even though they are made elsewhere.


Oh snap. The dutch just dumped on the eye-talians.


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## ClassicSteel71

FondriestFan said:


> Oh snap. The dutch just dumped on the eye-talians.


It's worse to never have had soul to lose. :thumbsup:


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## fabsroman

Daddy yo yo said:


> well, "made in ..." only says that a certain amount of the added value was added in that very country. it doesn't mean that it's 100% made there. if a manufacturer says that his products are made in italy, only a certain part of the value has to be added added in italy. parts can still come from all around the world...
> 
> so, get over it. live with it. accept it. it doesn't matter. the most important thing is that you have a beautiful bike. it doesn't matter whether or not all parts are 100% italian. btw, there's a fabulous eps on weight weenies, reddish colour scheme with 3t parts. just drop dead gorgeous! :thumbsup:


Hey, this is my bike I'm building, so I don't have to get over anything. Plus, I'm pretty anal about a lot of things.

I'm sitting here debating whether or not to order the Deda Zero 100 stem and the Deda Electra bar, and now I find out that Deda isn't made in Italy either. This stuff is killing me.


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## ClassicSteel71

WR Compositi.....


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## corky

oh yeah!..... anyone know where I can get a 31.6 Wr seatpost??

Or maybe I should get a PMP


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## fabsroman

ClassicSteel71 said:


> WR Compositi.....


Like I have said, I need to round all these guys up and be their USA distributor/retailer over the internet. Where the heck can I get these components? I would buy the front hubs, stems, and bars for sure. Possibly a seatpost too.

They don't even list a US distributor.


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## edmundjaques

fabsroman said:


> How pissed am I. I'm trying to build my C50 almost 100% Italian, and I buy the 3T bars and stem after reading on their website about their Italian heritage, expecting them to be Made in Italy. Well, I got the bars and stem today. Bars are made in China, stem is made in Taiwan. Campy needs to start making stems and bars. The only thing that wasn't going to be Italian was the hubs because I couldn't find some 32 hole rims I liked to use on the PowerTap so I went with 28 hole Ambrosio carbon rims. Oh well, I guess I am going to live with this bar and stem combo for a while, at least until I can get the Cinelli Ram bar situation straightened out with the airbrush artist. Trying to get a build perfect takes forever.


Hi Fabs: Why not a Campag wheelset? My last build up used Marchisio wheels - been fine. Just in the early stages of building up a Merckx - can't conceive of anything oriental on it, using TTT ( Merckx panto'd) stem, bar is Italian too but can't remember maker. I have Cinelli ram on my C50 - brilliant. Recently acquired a Hetchins MO fixie with a beautiful Cinelli stem. I'd definitely hang out for Italian stuff. As you say, takes forever but.....it is quality time when you ride.


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## ClassicSteel71

fabsroman said:


> Like I have said, I need to round all these guys up and be their USA distributor/retailer over the internet. Where the heck can I get these components? I would buy the front hubs, stems, and bars for sure. Possibly a seatpost too.
> 
> They don't even list a US distributor.


You live in a global world. Contact an Italian dealer or try Competitive Cyclist. They sell the seat posts, I'm sure they can order the other stuff.


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## FondriestFan

fabsroman said:


> Like I have said, I need to round all these guys up and be their USA distributor/retailer over the internet. Where the heck can I get these components? I would buy the front hubs, stems, and bars for sure. Possibly a seatpost too.
> 
> They don't even list a US distributor.


Fabs, everything is possible.

I was surfing the internet on alibaba.com a few years ago, emailed a Taiwanese contact, and next thing, I was ordering frames and parts for cheap.

I was paying $90 for the same bars Stella Azzurra and others are selling for $400.
The Pinarello MoST integrated bars? Cost me about $165, and that's high because I was ordering small quantities.

Just email or call these WR Compositi people.


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## B15serv

Ill just say this...... if you bought a BMW made in the USA would it be any less a german automobile? I just got the 3T ergonova LTD bars with a 3T stem and post as well. Theyre great.


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## FondriestFan

B15serv said:


> Ill just say this...... if you bought a BMW made in the USA would it be any less a german automobile? I just got the 3T ergonova LTD bars with a 3T stem and post as well. Theyre great.



Yes, it would be less German if it was designed in Germany and made in the USA.

This has nothing to do with quality. The OP just wanted parts made in Italy.


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## fabsroman

edmundjaques said:


> Hi Fabs: Why not a Campag wheelset? My last build up used Marchisio wheels - been fine. Just in the early stages of building up a Merckx - can't conceive of anything oriental on it, using TTT ( Merckx panto'd) stem, bar is Italian too but can't remember maker. I have Cinelli ram on my C50 - brilliant. Recently acquired a Hetchins MO fixie with a beautiful Cinelli stem. I'd definitely hang out for Italian stuff. As you say, takes forever but.....it is quality time when you ride.


No campy wheelset because I am going with a Powertap on the rear. The G3 spoking won't work on that and I am not going to use Hyperons for training. That is why I got the Ambrosio XCarbo's. I have a set of 2007 Eurus tubulars sitting around that I am going to use in the meantime if I can ever get the rest of this bike built.

I have decided to wait on the wheel build and order a WR Compositi hub. The problem with that is they are only available from a single internet vendor and the cost is $450 for a set. I'll probably be splurging. If the bars and stem weren't so expensive, I would buy them right now too, but I think I am going to just use the 3T bar and stem until the winter and then upgrade to the WR Compositi stem and bars.

FYI - Cinelli is now made in Taiwan. The Ram bars I bought in 2006 say Made in Italy on them. Both pairs of Ram bars I bought in 2007 from a Taiwan ebay vendor both say Designed in Italy on them. So, Cinelli is pretty much out of the picture too.


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## fabsroman

FondriestFan said:


> Fabs, everything is possible.
> 
> I was surfing the internet on alibaba.com a few years ago, emailed a Taiwanese contact, and next thing, I was ordering frames and parts for cheap.
> 
> I was paying $90 for the same bars Stella Azzurra and others are selling for $400.
> The Pinarello MoST integrated bars? Cost me about $165, and that's high because I was ordering small quantities.
> 
> Just email or call these WR Compositi people.


Thanks Fondriest. I sent them an e-mail last night about buying a front hub alone instead of a hubset because I have absolutely no use for the rear hub. If they write me back, I'll ask them about the bars and stem. Right after I wrote the last post to Edmund, I started debating whether I should even use this 3T stuff or just bite the bullet and get the WR Compositi stuff instead.


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## fabsroman

B15serv said:


> Ill just say this...... if you bought a BMW made in the USA would it be any less a german automobile? I just got the 3T ergonova LTD bars with a 3T stem and post as well. Theyre great.


Is a Volkswagen built in Mexico the same as one built in Germany? To some people, it actually matters where stuff is made. Imagine a Ferrari being built in Mexico. Would that be any less Italian? Of course it would.


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## tidi

*+1*



fabsroman said:


> Is a Volkswagen built in Mexico the same as one built in Germany? To some people, it actually matters where stuff is made. Imagine a Ferrari being built in Mexico. Would that be any less Italian? Of course it would.


thank god i'm not the only one that i know that likes things made in italy, germany, swiss or the usa. it matters to me.
for me it is not a racial line of thought, just as i would like a buddha statue ornamant made in asis and not usa or australia.


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## fabsroman

tidi said:


> thank god i'm not the only one that i know that likes things made in italy, germany, swiss or the usa. it matters to me.
> for me it is not a racial line of thought, just as i would like a buddha statue ornamant made in asis and not usa or australia.


Exactly. If I buy oriental tea cups, I want them made in the Orient. Same thing goes for a Ming vase, even if it is a knock off. Same for a samurai sword.

There are just some things that have a certain history behind them, and it sucks when you see that they aren't made there any more. If I was building a Giant, I would expect it to be built in Asia because that is where its history is.


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## shaochieh

VW from Mexico is not the same from Germany because I have a Golf GTI from the states living in Germany. The VW in Germany have much better option and quality into their work.


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## smokva

fabsroman said:


> Is a Volkswagen built in Mexico the same as one built in Germany? To some people, it actually matters where stuff is made. Imagine a Ferrari being built in Mexico. Would that be any less Italian? Of course it would.


I don't know about VW, but seen on the example of Toyota Corolla that two "same" cars are not the same. One was made in japan and other somewhere in Europe (forgot is it Spain or UK). Japan one was much better built, and we are talking about Toyota here...known for it's quality.


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## fabsroman

shaochieh said:


> VW from Mexico is not the same from Germany because I have a Golf GTI from the states living in Germany. The VW in Germany have much better option and quality into their work.


A girl I used to date had a VW Beatle turbo that was made in Mexico. The first one she got to return under the Lemon Law because it was in the shop for more than 30 days in a year's period. In fact, it was in the shop the first 30 days she had it. Driving home from the dealership it just died from a computer problem. Then, instead of getting something else, she got the exact same car. She made it a year without any problems and then it just started dying whenever it pleased. So, she made me switch cars with her. One time it died on me at 65 mph on the highway. The motor would just cut off for no apprarent reason. Luckily, I knew what to do. My girlfriend at the time, who isn't my wife right now, would have probably wrecked the car.


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## fabsroman

smokva said:


> I don't know about VW, but seen on the example of Toyota Corolla that two "same" cars are not the same. One was made in japan and other somewhere in Europe (forgot is it Spain or UK). Japan one was much better built, and we are talking about Toyota here...known for it's quality.


If I were a Toyota guy, which I'm not, but if I was, I would want one of their cars that was made in Japan. It always seems like quality control is a lot better when the factory is closer to the company headquarters.


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## Eyorerox

What about Miche
website says Made in Italy

http://www.miche.it/prodotti.php


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## fabsroman

Eyorerox said:


> What about Miche
> website says Made in Italy
> 
> http://www.miche.it/prodotti.php


I am well aware of them. I tried to find their Primato Syntesi hubs online and it was nearly impossible, and when I did find them at one place they were only available in 32 hole and not 28 hole, but they are advertised in 28 hole. Plus, they don't make bars or stems.

These Italian component manufacturers, with the exception of Campy, should really hire some new marketing and distribution managers/execs.

I also tried to buy come Gipiemme carbon rims/wheels, and that was an exercise. I ended up giving up on that one since the nearest shop was in Pittsburgh almost 5 hours away from me and they weren't available online anywhere.


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## wankski

i'm with u .... f**k miche... lack of service is legendary.... i can get their 32h miche racing box hubs for cheap, but no one knows their dimensions.... mailed miche... welp.... they obviously dont wanna sell em...

i will oblige..


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## fabsroman

wankski said:


> i'm with u .... f**k miche... lack of service is legendary.... i can get their 32h miche racing box hubs for cheap, but no one knows their dimensions.... mailed miche... welp.... they obviously dont wanna sell em...
> 
> i will oblige..


It doesn't seem as though anybody really wants to sell WR Compositi either. I e-mailed the manufacturer directly and the single online retailer that I could find about the hub dimensions and whether I could buy a single front hub instead of a set. Those e-mails were sent over the weekend and I have not received a response yet. Of course, the manufactuerer and retailer are both in Italy. What is with these Italians? I can say stuff like that since my parents are from Italy. LOL


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## tidi

*their hubs are*



wankski said:


> i'm with u .... f**k miche... lack of service is legendary.... i can get their 32h miche racing box hubs for cheap, but no one knows their dimensions.... mailed miche... welp.... they obviously dont wanna sell em...
> 
> i will oblige..


quite heavy. i enquired about them here in oz a while ago from Hillbrick i think and got the weight. cant remember off hand but the weight put me off. i could have used current centaur or veloce and won on the weight weenie war.


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## tidi

*i love reading this,,,,,*



fabsroman said:


> Exactly. If I buy oriental tea cups, I want them made in the Orient. Same thing goes for a Ming vase, even if it is a knock off. Same for a samurai sword.
> 
> There are just some things that have a certain history behind them, and it sucks when you see that they aren't made there any more. If I was building a Giant, I would expect it to be built in Asia because that is where its history is.


makes me feel i have friends. anyway i'm with you fab, where is the adventure these days in bikes. soon everything will be made in the same factory. no adventure there, the thrill of the chase will be lost. good luck and happy hunting. i'm with you.:thumbsup:


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## wankski

ahh, an aussie! the hubset is s'posed to be around 460g ex skewers... lemme reiterate cheap tho.... we're talking 100AUD for the set. 

I build wheels, and in the local market, OPs w/ aci 2.0-1.7-2.0 spokes, brass nips and miche hubs for b/w $350-400 is a steal, and i could have still made money on it....maybe more than my high zoot, low weight alu builds... best of all it had both campy and shimano covered....

to put that into context for the non-aussies.... conti rubber (4000s) retail for about $120.... that's each!  so going into the LBS for retail rubber, tubes and rim strip to go with it would cost almost as much as the wheelset.... understandable when they are charging what? $800-900 for crappy kysrium elites?


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## rodist

*Modolo's*

I love my Modolo KX Curvissimi Bars. The Kali Stem is not bad looking either.
I don't know if they still manufacture in Italy. Mine say made in Italy but they are 3 years old. Below is the link to the Modolo Catolague.

http://www.modolo.com/Cat-Modolo-2009.pdf


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## Clevor

Fabrosman, I remember you were the first person to enlighten me about the Cinelli RAM bars being made in the Far East. While the first bar you have is made in Italy, there were QC problems with them (they tended to break at the center), so be thankful they switched production to the Far East. I presume they fixed the issue with new tooling. Maestro told me about 30% of those RAM bars made in Italy were breaking.

As for Deda, they haven't been making anything in Italy for years. Therefore nothing surprising about 3T. 

And if you are using Campy, keep in mind anything beyond around 2003/2004 isn't (fully) made in Italy anyway. Many components are now made in Slovenia. That's why I made sure I bought out all of Performance's stock of Campy components back in 2004, to be sure I got the 'genuine' stuff. I had the presence of mind back then to pick up a brand-new 2003 Campy carbon crank on Ebay, still in the box. It's the first Campy production carbon crank replete with chainrings when they were still made in Italy.

I considered going all Italia on my C-50 but it's not worth it if you want to install the best components. I am junking the Colnago-branded headset (made by Silva) for a Chris King. It's like the difference between a toy and an aircraft component.


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## fabsroman

I think I can get some pretty nice components from WR Compositi, but they are pricey. I've only found one online retailer so far and I sent them an e-mail on Monday about shipping to the US and I have yet to receive a response from them. So, it makes me a little leery about purchasing from them. I might make half the purchase anyway and then go from there.


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## MERAKMAN

Clevor said:


> Fabrosman, I remember you were the first person to enlighten me about the Cinelli RAM bars being made in the Far East. While the first bar you have is made in Italy, there were QC problems with them (they tended to break at the center), so be thankful they switched production to the Far East. I presume they fixed the issue with new tooling. Maestro told me about 30% of those RAM bars made in Italy were breaking.
> 
> As for Deda, they haven't been making anything in Italy for years. Therefore nothing surprising about 3T.
> 
> And if you are using Campy, keep in mind anything beyond around 2003/2004 isn't (fully) made in Italy anyway. Many components are now made in Slovenia. That's why I made sure I bought out all of Performance's stock of Campy components back in 2004, to be sure I got the 'genuine' stuff. I had the presence of mind back then to pick up a brand-new 2003 Campy carbon crank on Ebay, still in the box. It's the first Campy production carbon crank replete with chainrings when they were still made in Italy.
> 
> I considered going all Italia on my C-50 but it's not worth it if you want to install the best components. I am junking the Colnago-branded headset (made by Silva) for a Chris King. It's like the difference between a toy and an aircraft component.


Hi How did you know that Campy went to the Far East for production in 2003/2004? I presume the Campy stuff with 'Made in Italy' on are made in Italy? I noticed that wording started to disappear a couple of years back...


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## simplyhankk

Ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with components made in the East. Quit worshiping Europeans and face the reality. I can't stand people whining about stuff not made in Europe...try throwing everything in your house away that's made in Taiwan/China, you'd find yourself living in your -expensive European- car, and sure enough you won't have your computer either.


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## fabsroman

simplyhankk said:


> Ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with components made in the East. Quit worshiping Europeans and face the reality. I can't stand people whining about stuff not made in Europe...try throwing everything in your house away that's made in Taiwan/China, you'd find yourself living in your -expensive European- car, and sure enough you won't have your computer either.


Here we go again. I don't worship Europeans, my parents just happen to be from Italy. My dad was born there in 1942 and my mom in 1943. They came here in the 50's. So, is it okay for me to embrace my Italian heritage, or is that something I should get over too?

As far as cars are concerned, I drive Fords. I will continue to drive Fords as long as they are in business. Possibly a Mercury or Lincoln, but that is pretty much a Ford with wood trim.

If I could buy a computer made in the US, or anything else for that matter, I would. I try to buy American made whenever I can, but it isn't easy.

Do you live in the US? Have you read anything about our $3 trillion, that is $3,000,000,000,000.00, trade deficit? I think we need to pay a lot more attention to where we buy things from. If I cannot help the American economy, I would prefer to help the Italian one.

We are entitled to our own beliefs and the ability to spend our money wherever we want. So, feel free to buy Asian products to your hearts content. I'm not telling you not to. Just get over the fact that some of us would prefer to have our Italian heritage bikes and cars actually made in Italy.

FYI - I buy Crafstman hand tools Made in the USA by an American company. I buy DeWalt power tools Made in the USA by an American Company, Black & Decker who one of my friends works for in the finance department. Fords, do I have to say made in the USA? My rifles are all Rugers, made in the USA. Shotguns are either Beretta or Bennelli, made in Italy. There is two exceptions. A Browning BPS made in Japan and the sorriest excuse for an over/under Browning Citori made in Japan. Did I mention that Beretta actually has a plant here in Maryland where it manufactures all of its handguns sold in the US and when I had prpblems with one of their guns they took it back there and gave me a new one. Browning did absolutely nothing for me with their made in Japan POS which had way more problems than the one Beretta o/u I had. As far as electonics go, almost all of them are made in the east, but when we get a single family home I'll be buying Harmon Kardon, made in the US which one of my wife's cousins works for.

The pain about trying to figure out where things are made is that most places try to hide where they make things. I've sent e-mails to Deda, 3T, Modolo, and ITM to ask where they are and guess what, I have not received a single reply from them. Retailers don't list that stuff on their website either.


----------



## ClassicSteel71

fabsroman said:


> As far as cars are concerned, I drive Fords. I will continue to drive Fords as long as they are in business. Possibly a Mercury or Lincoln, but that is pretty much a Ford with wood trim.


And you admit it.....:cryin:


----------



## Guest

I'm not sure that I agree with the argument "everything that is made in asia by an italian company sucks, or lost its soul. It is still being designed in Italy! why is that a problem if the quality is still guaranteed to be the same! Can you imagine Europeans freaking out, and not wanting to buy BMW because it is made in South Carolina. Yes there are many cheap products that are made in the Asia. Regardless of what you think of Pinarello or Weiler their top of the range bikes are made in Asia and the quality of the bikes is peerless.


----------



## ClassicSteel71

metanoize said:


> I'm not sure that I agree with the argument "everything that is made in asia by an italian company sucks, or lost its soul. It is still being designed in Italy! why is that a problem if the quality is still guaranteed to be the same! Can you imagine Europeans freaking out, and not wanting to buy BMW because it is made in South Carolina. Yes there are many cheap products that are made in the Asia. *Regardless of what you think of Pinarello or Weiler their top of the range bikes are made in Asia and the quality of the bikes is peerless.*


Word..... I love Deda products not to mention countless other Bike frames and parts being manufactured in Asia... PS: If WR was making superior bike parts, dealers would be importing and carrying them.


----------



## fabsroman

ClassicSteel71 said:


> And you admit it.....:cryin:


I have an 11 year old Taurus that has just over 197,000 miles on it and there have been very few problems with it. Knock on wood.

On top of that, Ford's current reliability rating is higher than any other brand, including Toyota and Honda. It took a while for Americans to switch from the Big 3 to the Japanese cars, and now I think those same Americans are going to take a while to realize that Ford, and possibly GM, are very competitive with the Asian car makers. Sad thing is that GM might not be around long enough for Americans to figure it out.


----------



## FondriestFan

ClassicSteel71 said:


> Word..... I love Deda products not to mention countless other Bike frames and parts being manufactured in Asia... PS: If WR was making superior bike parts, dealers would be importing and carrying them.


No, not necessarily. History is littered with superior products that have failed because of inferior marketing.


----------



## fabsroman

FondriestFan said:


> No, not necessarily. History is littered with superior products that have failed because of inferior marketing.


Fondriest and I can agree on something. LOL

Just because daelers in the US aren't carrying them doesn't mean these products are not superior to other products. They are hand made in Italy, and according to a guy on ebay that has a set of bars for sale, they are available in Italy but not many other places.

The more I try to deal with the Italian companies, the more it seems as though they just do not care about big business. I've sent e-mails to almost all of them (e.g., Modolo, Gipiemme, Miele, Deda, 3T, ITM) and I never received a response from them, and the e-mails weren't just about where their products are made.

Colnago responded in a single day to my paint code e-mail.

I'm actually not surprised by this. When I was in Italy in 2001, it seemed as though people were not very pre-occupied with money, but more with their quality of life which wasn't measured by material possessions.


----------



## fabsroman

metanoize said:


> I'm not sure that I agree with the argument "everything that is made in asia by an italian company sucks, or lost its soul. It is still being designed in Italy! why is that a problem if the quality is still guaranteed to be the same! Can you imagine Europeans freaking out, and not wanting to buy BMW because it is made in South Carolina. Yes there are many cheap products that are made in the Asia. Regardless of what you think of Pinarello or Weiler their top of the range bikes are made in Asia and the quality of the bikes is peerless.


Yep, I have seen two Pinarello frames on this site that snapped in half. Their quality is peerless. Granted, I have no idea if that was a design defect (i.e., Italy) or a manufacturing defect (i.e., Asia), but there is room to argue over your "peerless" statement.

Plus, I don't think I ever said "everything that is made in asia by an italian company sucks, or lost its soul." I would have definitely capitalized Asia and Italian. LOL


----------



## B15serv

It only matters where its made if its built by hand. Otherwise its the same exact machine(s) just plugged in on different soil. Will my HP printer produce a better letter if I fly it to France and plug it in there?? What if I hire a french guy to push the button? Is it better now? If I take it to Mexico will the paper get jammed? I understand wanting "italian" parts and thats fine but unless theyre made by hand there is no difference that its produced in taiwan. If 3T ships the machine back to italy and plugs it in there would you be happy?


----------



## fabsroman

B15serv said:


> It only matters where its made if its built by hand. Otherwise its the same exact machine(s) just plugged in on different soil. Will my HP printer produce a better letter if I fly it to France and plug it in there?? What if I hire a french guy to push the button? Is it better now?  If I take it to Mexico will the paper get jammed? I understand wanting "italian" parts and thats fine but unless theyre made by hand there is no difference that its produced in taiwan. If 3T ships the machine back to italy and plugs it in there would you be happy?


My carbon fiber Colnagos are made by hand and in Italy, and the WR Compositi hubs and skewers I just bought are hand made in Italy according to their website. So, I have the hand made part covered.

Now, how about the quality control part? I'm assuming that if the machine is plugged in in Italy, it will be an Italian doing the quality control, correct?

If it was just as simple as plugging a machine in in Italy versus plugging it in in Asia, why even ship the machines to Asia in the first place? What is the benefit of manufacturing in Asia over Italy or the US? I think I know the answer to this, the labor rate. Somehow, it isn't quite as simple as there being no difference between where the product is made because the entire product is machine made.


----------



## ClassicSteel71

You guys should read your posts out loud so you can actually hear yourselves. Priceless...


----------



## tidi

*Crikey,,,,,*

i wish all the people that wish the people that want parts made in italy would just shut the #$&k up.. i to want my parts made in italy. if some of you that don't give a toss where your bike is made why don't you help those who do if you can, to locate italian made bits. 
if you don't care where stuff is made good on you, you are free of this obsession/passion. i assume you may have put your energies into other passions, maybe riding performance, house renovating whatever. do you get slandered for this? i'm guessin not. so as we are all bikers on this site why don't you lighten up on us that appreciate fine things in life as i'm sure you do in your way.
now that is off my chest i too may lighten up


----------



## fabsroman

I ordered the WR Compositi hubs and skewers yesterday and am hoping they get here next week. I'll have a report on them once they get here. If they look good and the retailer is good about that order, I'm going to get the stem and bars.


----------



## corky

Fabs what dealer have you used for the WR stuff?


----------



## fabsroman

corky said:


> Fabs what dealer have you used for the WR stuff?


It is an online dealer out of Italy. Here is the website:

http://www.bikeonline.it/catalog/index.php

They aren't cheap, but they are a lot cheaper than the place I found out of Japan. I'll let you know how long it takes to get the parts.


----------



## STARNUT

fabsroman said:


> Do you live in the US? Have you read anything about our $3 trillion, that is $3,000,000,000,000.00, trade deficit? I think we need to pay a lot more attention to where we buy things from. If I cannot help the American economy, I would prefer to help the Italian one.



Don't go there. We'll never ever ever have a trade surplus or even be close to net 0. That's not our role. As you so aptly pointed out, it's difficult to buy American, we're no longer a manufacturing economy. Our job is to buy stuff not make it. The simple math that goes into the "trade deficit" will tell you it's never possible for us to have a surplus. Additionally, you do realize that non domestic oil goes into that deficit as well? The same non domestic oil used to make gas for your US made gas guzzler. In fact......... how much of our deficit is attributed to energy costs? Moreover, there'd be no upside for us in having a surplus. Who's going to buy the excess stuff made in a place where people a paid more than almost anywhere else in the world? It's not China.

Look up the Big Mac index and the new hip iPod index (damn kids)

I digress.... never mind






OT





3T stuff rocks.



WR Compositi stuff rocks as well. You may call Gian Luca at Albabici in Oxnard. He's a Nalini importer and was the De Rosa importer before Trialtir got it a phucked it all up. At any rate, I think he did WR at one point and might still be able to, if not, he'd know who did.

Starnut


----------



## rook

I know this is going to hurt alot of you xenophobic and racist thinkers out there, but China actually has much better carbon manufacturers than the USA or Italy. This isn't a cost issue. Incidentally, they can produce these higher quality products at a lower cost too. Ouch.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> I know this is going to hurt alot of you xenophobic and racist thinkers out there, but China actually has much better carbon manufacturers than the USA or Italy. This isn't a cost issue. Incidentally, they can produce these higher quality products at a lower cost too. Ouch.


And we always have somebody that has to use the racist word. Look, I don't want to be throwing words around like racist, moron, uneducated, etc., but if the shoe fits, you can wear it. I've already given my reasons for wanting the Italian parts. It was pretty simple, yet you want to call me a racist.

Just to let you know, I have Asian friends, and I would be more than happy to buy these Italian made parts from an Asian retailer. Heck, I even checked out the Japanese retailer for the WR Compositi parts and did the Yen to Dollar conversion, and their prices were out of this world.

In short, stop throwing the racist word around when you have no idea about the person you are actually referring to. Kind of like me calling you a moron without even knowing you. For all I know, you might have graduated #1 from MIT.

By the way, are the Chinese and Japanese racists as a culture because for quite a while there, and maybe even to this day, they refused to purchase US goods due to a pride in their own country. So, how is it that if I prefer American (i.e., where I live) and Italian (i.e., where my parents were born) products, I am a racist. For me to be a racist, don't I have to have an issue with the people themselves, not the parts they manufacture? Good Lord, I just want parts made in Italy.


----------



## simplyhankk

fabsroman said:


> Just to let you know, I have Asian friends


Have your Asian friends read this post that you started and let us know if you still got Asian friends. 




fabsroman said:


> Good Lord, I just want parts made in Italy.


Look at the thread title that you started, whatever it means...what's the intention of the word "sucks"? It should be used like this: 










and I think this might fit you....put this atop your Italian shrine at home and worship this:


----------



## corky

simply give it a rest...... eh?


----------



## fabsroman

simplyhankk said:


> Have your Asian friends read this post that you started and let us know if you still got Asian friends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the thread title that you started, whatever it means...what's the intention of the word "sucks"? It should be used like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I think this might fit you....put this atop your Italian shrine at home and worship this:


And you are how old? Two of my Asian friends are into cycling and they both know I tried to go 100% Italian on my Cristallo, which is really close since the Cinelli Ram bars say Made in Italy on them. They have no issue with it.

My sister was always giving me crap about using the term Orientals, so when I went to lunch with one of the guys above and another guy that is half Vietnamese and half Caucasian, I asked them whether they were offended if I referred to them as Oriental if I didn't know what country they were from. They shrugged their shoulders and the one that was born in Vietnam said that only white people worry about all this PC stuff and that we spend way too much time worrying about it. Personally, I think he is right. Why do we use the term Asians? Russians and Indians are in Asia, along with a couple other countries and we don't refer to them as Asians.


----------



## ClassicSteel71

rook said:


> I know this is going to hurt alot of you xenophobic and racist thinkers out there, *but China actually has much better carbon manufacturers than the USA or Italy*. This isn't a cost issue. Incidentally, they can produce these higher quality products at a lower cost too. Ouch.


I will put Parlee or Crumpton up against anyone.


----------



## STARNUT

Uh..........

Parlee makes one of their models in Asia.

Starnut


----------



## ClassicSteel71

STARNUT said:


> Uh..........
> 
> Parlee makes one of their models in Asia.
> 
> Starnut


Pile another clown into the VW I guess....


----------



## STARNUT

:lol:

I wouldn't say that. It's the Z4 (which is probably one of the most underrated bikes at the price).

The rest are obviously built here.

Starnut


----------



## rook

This post is truly absurd. When the KKK goes on the Jerry Springer show and says, "hey, we've got Asian friends too, we just don't like our daughters and sons to be involved with Asian people, that's all. We aren't racist"... does anyone believe them?

Anyway, there are frames from all over the world that fail for one reason or another. Even the USA custom carbon manufacturers have fail rates. There is absolutely no evidence to show that frames made in the Far East fail at a higher rate than Italian, American, or some non-Asian frames. It's mostly the same type of people who get on forums and post their anecdotal mumbo jumbo about how Asian frames fail at a higher rate because of their personal experience with friends and things they've read or seen on the internet. Sheesh!


----------



## FondriestFan

rook said:


> This post is truly absurd. When the KKK goes on the Jerry Springer show and says, "hey, we've got Asian friends too, we just don't like our daughters and sons to be involved with Asian people, that's all. We aren't racist"... does anyone believe them?
> 
> Anyway, there are frames from all over the world that fail for one reason or another. Even the USA custom carbon manufacturers have fail rates. There is absolutely no evidence to show that frames made in the Far East fail at a higher rate than Italian, American, or some non-Asian frames. It's mostly the same type of people who get on forums and post their anecdotal mumbo jumbo about how Asian frames fail at a higher rate because of their personal experience with friends and things they've read or seen on the internet. Sheesh!


Does China make great carbon products? Sure.
Do they make better products in many cases than non-Asian countries? Of course.
Are your posts annoying and completely off topic? Absolutely.

Try and follow the flow of the conversation next time, rookie. Nobody was bashing Chinese or any other Asian products. Excellent stuff comes out of factories like Martec and others. The OP just wanted Italian parts. Period. That's all. This discussion had nothing to do with race until you brought it up.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> This post is truly absurd. When the KKK goes on the Jerry Springer show and says, "hey, we've got Asian friends too, we just don't like our daughters and sons to be involved with Asian people, that's all. We aren't racist"... does anyone believe them?
> 
> Anyway, there are frames from all over the world that fail for one reason or another. Even the USA custom carbon manufacturers have fail rates. There is absolutely no evidence to show that frames made in the Far East fail at a higher rate than Italian, American, or some non-Asian frames. It's mostly the same type of people who get on forums and post their anecdotal mumbo jumbo about how Asian frames fail at a higher rate because of their personal experience with friends and things they've read or seen on the internet. Sheesh!


You can believe whatever you want. This is the internet, so I cannot prove to you what kind of person I am. Likewise, you cannot prove to me that you aren't a racist that just takes offense to an American that wants to buy goods elsewhere.

Comparing me to the KKK is truly pathetic, and if KKK members had friends of the type of people that they truly despise, would they really be KKK members? Plus, if they have friends of the type of people they despise, why wouldn't they want their kids hanging around with them. I have absolutely no objection to my kids hanging around with other kids of any race or religion.

Now, to compare the fact that I want to support America or Italy economically, or that I have a preference for Italian bike parts, and turn this into a KKK thread is utterly ridiculous, and truly absurd. If I were to prefer American parts to Taiwanese parts, would I be a racist or a patriot?

If any Asian-Italian made the parts in Italy I wouldn't care. I'm not flying over there to make sure that it is an Italian with 20 generations of heritage in Italy. I just want the parts made in Italy. Likewise, I want my cars made in the US, and I could give a rat's rear if there is an Asian-American working on the assembly line and actually putting parts on my vehicle. I would rather put the money into the pocket of an Asian-American working in the US than a Caucasian-Asian working in Taiwan or China.

For those of you that don't know a thing about me, continue on with your judgment of me merely because I want Italian made parts for my bike. You can think less of me and I can think less of you. Sadly, neither of us will actually know one another.


----------



## ClassicSteel71

STARNUT said:


> :lol:
> 
> I wouldn't say that. It's the Z4 (which is probably one of the most underrated bikes at the price).
> 
> The rest are obviously built here.
> 
> Starnut


I wouldn't mind owning a Z4 ....


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> You can believe whatever you want. This is the internet, so I cannot prove to you what kind of person I am. Likewise, you cannot prove to me that you aren't a racist that just takes offense to an American that wants to buy goods elsewhere.
> 
> Comparing me to the KKK is truly pathetic, and if KKK members had friends of the type of people that they truly despise, would they really be KKK members? Plus, if they have friends of the type of people they despise, why wouldn't they want their kids hanging around with them. I have absolutely no objection to my kids hanging around with other kids of any race or religion.
> 
> Now, to compare the fact that I want to support America or Italy economically, or that I have a preference for Italian bike parts, and turn this into a KKK thread is utterly ridiculous, and truly absurd. If I were to prefer American parts to Taiwanese parts, would I be a racist or a patriot?
> 
> If any Asian-Italian made the parts in Italy I wouldn't care. I'm not flying over there to make sure that it is an Italian with 20 generations of heritage in Italy. I just want the parts made in Italy. Likewise, I want my cars made in the US, and I could give a rat's rear if there is an Asian-American working on the assembly line and actually putting parts on my vehicle. I would rather put the money into the pocket of an Asian-American working in the US than a Caucasian-Asian working in Taiwan or China.
> 
> For those of you that don't know a thing about me, continue on with your judgment of me merely because I want Italian made parts for my bike. You can think less of me and I can think less of you. Sadly, neither of us will actually know one another.



Hey dude. Chill out. I'm not the one on here spewing Anti-Asian sentiments.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> Hey dude. Chill out. I'm not the one on here spewing Anti-Asian sentiments.


Correct. You are the one on here insulting me by calling me a racist and comparing me to the KKK without knowing much more about me than the fact that I want to have Made in Italy parts on my Made in Italy Colnago C50. Do I have that right? If I were to do the same to you, would you just sit there and "chill out".

Do you drive a foreign made car? How about if I were to call you un-American for doing so? Maybe compare you to some terrorists that want to bring down the US. Do you actually live in the US? I don't even know that about you, so I don't even know if the above example would even fit.

How many people do you call a racist to their face? Isn't the internet a wonderful thing in that regard. If you worked at a bike shop and somebody asked you where a part is made, I seriously doubt you would look at them across the counter and ask them "Why, are you a racist?"


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> Correct. You are the one on here insulting me by calling me a racist and comparing me to the KKK without knowing much more about me than the fact that I want to have Made in Italy parts on my Made in Italy Colnago C50. Do I have that right? If I were to do the same to you, would you just sit there and "chill out".
> 
> Do you drive a foreign made car? How about if I were to call you un-American for doing so? Maybe compare you to some terrorists that want to bring down the US. Do you actually live in the US? I don't even know that about you, so I don't even know if the above example would even fit.
> 
> How many people do you call a racist to their face? Isn't the internet a wonderful thing in that regard. If you worked at a bike shop and somebody asked you where a part is made, I seriously doubt you would look at them across the counter and ask them "Why, are you a racist?"



Umm. I don't think you need to say much else. You've already dug yourself in that hole of yours. Anyway, you need to also directly quote people if you want to attribute their words to them.


----------



## fabsroman

> This post is truly absurd. When the KKK goes on the Jerry Springer show and says, "hey, we've got Asian friends too, we just don't like our daughters and sons to be involved with Asian people, that's all. We aren't racist"... does anyone believe them?


That is what you posted two posts above, in response to me saying that I have Asian friends. Does that quote work for you? You insinuate a lot with those words.


----------



## tidi

*+100*



FondriestFan said:


> Does China make great carbon products? Sure.
> Do they make better products in many cases than non-Asian countries? Of course.
> Are your posts annoying and completely off topic? Absolutely.
> 
> Try and follow the flow of the conversation next time, rookie. Nobody was bashing Chinese or any other Asian products. Excellent stuff comes out of factories like Martec and others. The OP just wanted Italian parts. Period. That's all. This discussion had nothing to do with race until you brought it up.


fondriest fan you said better than i could.
rook, i wish you would take your racism and go away. this is a bike convo on parts out of italy. you are bringing this thread to a point that it nearly needs to end and fabrosman may miss out on some info from another in regards to his op, because as i see it you do not understand what is going on. so it is probably a good idea for you to move on without taking up more valuable space that fabrosman could find useful. you seem to want to start arguments here, why don't you get a punch bag or something else to try and exert your views on and keep this thread clean.


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> That is what you posted two posts above, in response to me saying that I have Asian friends. Does that quote work for you? You insinuate a lot with those words.



Please use direct quotes. As in you stated that "KKK is racist". Other than that, if you wanna buy what you wanna buy, that's your biz. However, other people besides myself may interpret what you say differently than what you differently than what you want them to.


----------



## tidi

*so is that*



rook said:


> Please use direct quotes. As in you stated that "KKK is racist". Other than that, if you wanna buy what you wanna buy, that's your biz. However, other people besides myself may interpret what you say differently than what you differently than what you want them to.


an acceptance speech from you saying that you did not understand/ got it wrong? if so you could give fabsroman an apology i think.


----------



## rook

tidi said:


> an acceptance speech from you saying that you did not understand/ got it wrong? if so you could give fabsroman an apology i think.



No. I'm not going to stereotype and call people "orientals" just because my 2 Asian buddies said it was ok. So, no. I'm standing behind what I say.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> No. I'm not going to stereotype and call people "orientals" just because my 2 Asian buddies said it was ok. So, no. I'm standing behind what I say.


Are you even Asian, Oriental, or whatever today's PC term is? At this point, I wouldn't believe you if you typed it, so if you want to prove to me that I have offended you, then send me a pic with you, today's newspaper, and your bike in it. I'll even take a printout of this mornings stock market readings in lieu of a newspaper. You can PM the pic to me or e-mail it to me and I will delete it after I see it. Otherwise, I'll take my two good friends' opinion on the matter as enough for me.

Also, why is Oriental a derisive term, and why is Asian the correct term? The Orient is a much more limited land area compared to all of Asia, and there are plenty of Asians that I already mentioned such as Russians and Indians that do not fit the "Asian" stereotype that you would equate with the use of the word "Asians".

By the way, thanks for taking a decent thread and turning it into a race/bigot thread, and thanks for not knowing when to stop.

I hope I can get this thread back on track once my WR Compositi parts come in.


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> Are you even Asian, Oriental, or whatever today's PC term is? At this point, I wouldn't believe you if you typed it, so if you want to prove to me that I have offended you, then send me a pic with you, today's newspaper, and your bike in it. I'll even take a printout of this mornings stock market readings in lieu of a newspaper. You can PM the pic to me or e-mail it to me and I will delete it after I see it. Otherwise, I'll take my two good friends' opinion on the matter as enough for me.
> 
> Also, why is Oriental a derisive term, and why is Asian the correct term? The Orient is a much more limited land area compared to all of Asia, and there are plenty of Asians that I already mentioned such as Russians and Indians that do not fit the "Asian" stereotype that you would equate with the use of the word "Asians".
> 
> By the way, thanks for taking a decent thread and turning it into a race/bigot thread, and thanks for not knowing when to stop.
> 
> I hope I can get this thread back on track once my WR Compositi parts come in.




I'm African-American. I'm black, but my race is really no issue to the topic, but thanks for the inquisition. If someone were to call me a nigg**, then I would take offense to that. If there were two of your friends who were black that said it didn't bother them that a white guy like yourself were to call them nigg***, then that doesn't make it right for you to proclaim that it is suddenly ok to start calling people that based on your anecdotal experience, which I am finding to be yes, offensive.

So to your generalizations, big thumbs down to all of them. Take that for what it's worth. Good luck to finding your parts - that correspond to your title - that don't suck.


----------



## tidi

*Fabsroman*

i am awaiting my italian made de rosa titanio. should get here this week i hope. i'm trying for as much italian as possible, it has threaded steel forks ( yeah i like the traditional look and style), also have a cinelli grammo comin as well. wheels are red ambrosio excellence on 02 centaur hubs all nos. groupo is 06 and 07 record/chorus. saddle is an origional flyte on titanium selcof post. i will post a pic of it when it's ready, i cannot wait for this little hot rod. look forward to hearing about the wr compositi parts.
yours in adventure:thumbsup:


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> I'm African-American. I'm black, but my race is really no issue to the topic, but thanks for the inquisition. If someone were to call me a nigg**, then I would take offense to that. If there were two of your friends who were black that said it didn't bother them that a white guy like yourself were to call them nigg***, then that doesn't make it right for you to proclaim that it is suddenly ok to start calling people that based on your anecdotal experience, which I am finding to be yes, offensive.
> 
> So to your generalizations, big thumbs down to all of them. Take that for what it's worth. Good luck to finding your parts - that correspond to your title - that don't suck.


There is a huge difference between the n word and the word Oriental. The n word means "without a soul". Does the word Oriental come anywhere close. Now, I have asked you a couple of times what is derogatory about the word Oriental and I am waiting for a response.

As far as my title to this thread goes, it isn't Asian parts that suck, but the fact that a company with 60 years of history in Italy making parts in Italy has moved its manufacturing to Asia. Kind of like Cannondale, which has been made in the USA for 20+ years, now moving its manufacturing over to Asia this year. That sucks too.

It seems that you are so full of hatred that you will declare racism at the drop of a hat. Good luck with that. What is really ironic is that I did work for two black clients yesterday, one of whom I have known since high school and I regard extremely highly. Again, you know absolutely nothing about me. So, to your generalization about me being a racist, two thumbs down on that too. Okay, I probably should have referred to him as African-American because that is the PC term. Now, what happens if somebody happens to be black but from Italy, and I have met several people that fit that description that speak fluent Italian and fluent English. Do I still call them African-American, or do I call them African-Italian-American, and why do people call me Caucasian instead of Italian-American. About this time last year I was supposed to meet with the guy I mentioned above. I was running late so I called him and told him I would be 10 minutes late. He showed up 20 minutes late and told me that he didn't know if I had meant a black 10 minutes or a white 10 minutes. As long as the term isn't derogatory, does it really matter which one is used?

FYI - pretty soon this will be moved to PO and I will have to start another thread about Italian parts for an Italian Colnago.


----------



## fabsroman

tidi said:


> i am awaiting my italian made de rosa titanio. should get here this week i hope. i'm trying for as much italian as possible, it has threaded steel forks ( yeah i like the traditional look and style), also have a cinelli grammo comin as well. wheels are red ambrosio excellence on 02 centaur hubs all nos. groupo is 06 and 07 record/chorus. saddle is an origional flyte on titanium selcof post. i will post a pic of it when it's ready, i cannot wait for this little hot rod. look forward to hearing about the wr compositi parts.
> yours in adventure:thumbsup:


Definitely post a pic of the bike once it is done. I'm going to post a pic of my 4 built Colnagos and my Bianchi FG Lite once I get this C50 built.


----------



## rook

*Speak for yourself, not for others.*



fabsroman said:


> There is a huge difference between the n word and the word Oriental. The n word means "without a soul". Does the word Oriental come anywhere close. Now, I have asked you a couple of times what is derogatory about the word Oriental and I am waiting for a response.
> 
> As far as my title to this thread goes, it isn't Asian parts that suck, but the fact that a company with 60 years of history in Italy making parts in Italy has moved its manufacturing to Asia. Kind of like Cannondale, which has been made in the USA for 20+ years, now moving its manufacturing over to Asia this year. That sucks too.
> 
> It seems that you are so full of hatred that you will declare racism at the drop of a hat. Good luck with that. What is really ironic is that I did work for two black clients yesterday, one of whom I have known since high school and I regard extremely highly. Again, you know absolutely nothing about me. So, to your generalization about me being a racist, two thumbs down on that too. Okay, I probably should have referred to him as African-American because that is the PC term. Now, what happens if somebody happens to be black but from Italy, and I have met several people that fit that description that speak fluent Italian and fluent English. Do I still call them African-American, or do I call them African-Italian-American, and why do people call me Caucasian instead of Italian-American. About this time last year I was supposed to meet with the guy I mentioned above. I was running late so I called him and told him I would be 10 minutes late. He showed up 20 minutes late and told me that he didn't know if I had meant a black 10 minutes or a white 10 minutes. As long as the term isn't derogatory, does it really matter which one is used?
> 
> FYI - pretty soon this will be moved to PO and I will have to start another thread about Italian parts for an Italian Colnago.



No. I am black. I am African-American. It is not up to you to tell me what is or is not offensive to my own race. It is not up to you to tell me what is or is not offensive to another person's race either. So, in my mind you have no business at all to define to me what is or is not offensive to a race other than your own because of your anecdotal experience. What is offensive to my race, what is offensive to another person's race. You don't make that call. Period.


----------



## tidi

*and*



rook said:


> No. I am black. I am African-American. It is not up to you to tell me what is or is not offensive to my own race. It is not up to you to tell me what is or is not offensive to another person's race either. So, in my mind you have no business at all to define to me what is or is not offensive to a race other than your own because of your anecdotal experience. What is offensive to my race, what is offensive to another person's race. You don't make that call. Period.


who made you god. you bag others for something you are doing yourself. get out of here


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## wankski

quick!! how to unsubscribe from a thread? i made a post and now i get 100 useless stupid posts sent to my email about racism which was never the tenor of this thread.

thanks rook. why do this? bored much?

not the time nor place.

i'm sure fab was being clumsy with his title, but i'm sure he meant - "it sucks i bought these bars which i took to be italian, now find out they were likely made by trigon or gigantex... great! if i wanted that i would have bought those at a fraction of the price"...

i can tell you that Australia does not stomach such practices. not b/c of racism, but because of our law called the Trade Practices Act which covers 'deceptive and misleading conduct'..... if companies harp on about how great their Italian company is, their tradition, and how much better their bars are, and they are instead relabelled generic parts usually sold at a substantially lower price point - i believe there would be an action for the consumer under the TPA - especially when origin is not easily ascertained. 

Over here we do not agree that sourced from X, labelled in Italy = Italian manufacture.... So from this standpoint I can entirely see where Fab is coming from. It is deceptive conduct.

As for you fab... don't feed the troll. Some of your responses saw you come off a little worse for wear for my money.


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## fabsroman

rook said:


> No. I am black. I am African-American. It is not up to you to tell me what is or is not offensive to my own race. It is not up to you to tell me what is or is not offensive to another person's race either. So, in my mind you have no business at all to define to me what is or is not offensive to a race other than your own because of your anecdotal experience. What is offensive to my race, what is offensive to another person's race. You don't make that call. Period.


What makes YOU the ONE that decides what is offensive for an entire race. Do ALL blacks/African-Americans check in with you to determine if black is PC or not. My black friend used the term black. As far as I am concerned, he isn't offended by it. FYI - he is also an attorney and he used to work for a pretty large firm before he decided to cut back his pace and get a quasi governmental job. Now, the "n" word nobody should use. Speaking of that, a man in the DC government about 10+ years ago said that a black man was being niggardly and it was used in the correct context because it was referring to money. The Mayor fired the guy, and then looked up the definition and apologized. Sometimes, it just isn't good to jump to conclusions.

Alright, now taking that you speak for all African-American folk in the US, what makes you think you speak for all Asians. Would EVERY Asian in America be offended by the term Oriental. I've heard other people refer to themselves as Eurasians. I guess that is a mix between Caucasian and Asian, but I'm not sure.

All this PC stuff gives me a headache. Lord knows I don't take offense to people calling me a ***, as long as it isn't being used during an argument/debate. I am hoping that one day none of this will matter.

See, it is the throwing around of the term "racist" that shows the hatred. Do you really think I am buying bicycle parts Made in Italy because I dislike Asians? If that were the case, why would I be racing on a Colnago Arte that is made in Taiwan? Why would I own a second Arte frame that is sitting in a box should I wreck the first? If my hatred for Asians was such that I am a racist, why wouldn't I just buy a cheap American or Italian made frame?

When you are in Venice you can buy all kinds of glass ware that is made in Murano. However, if you were to buy the same exact glass ware while visiting Murano, you would pay an arm and a leg for it just to say you bought it in Murano. I'm paying an arm and a leg just to say that my bike is 100% Italian and I am suffering one heck of a headache doing it. I have had a C50 sitting in my bike stand since October and have not put a single mile on it. I have also had a Record 10 groupo sitting on the workshop bench since September (i.e., the time at which I ordered the frame).

Since this entire "racist" discussion isn't getting me anywhere to where I need to be, let's just agree to disagree on the racism part and we can let everybody else on here make up their own minds about it. You can continue to think I am a racist and I will continue to think I am not. We are both entitled to our own opinion.


----------



## fabsroman

wankski said:


> quick!! how to unsubscribe from a thread? i made a post and now i get 100 useless stupid posts sent to my email about racism which was never the tenor of this thread.
> 
> thanks rook. why do this? bored much?
> 
> not the time nor place.
> 
> i'm sure fab was being clumsy with his title, but i'm sure he meant - "it sucks i bought these bars which i took to be italian, now find out they were likely made by trigon or gigantex... great! if i wanted that i would have bought those at a fraction of the price"...
> 
> i can tell you that Australia does not stomach such practices. not b/c of racism, but because of our law called the Trade Practices Act which covers 'deceptive and misleading conduct'..... if companies harp on about how great their Italian company is, their tradition, and how much better their bars are, and they are instead relabelled generic parts usually sold at a substantially lower price point - i believe there would be an action for the consumer under the TPA - especially when origin is not easily ascertained.
> 
> Over here we do not agree that sourced from X, labelled in Italy = Italian manufacture.... So from this standpoint I can entirely see where Fab is coming from. It is deceptive conduct.
> 
> As for you fab... don't feed the troll. Some of your responses saw you come off a little worse for wear for my money.


If I could find the unsubscribe button, I would use it myself and start a new thread. It just pisses me off when somebody reads a thread on the internet and then decides to label me as a racist. This isn't the first time it has happened either.

As far as the labeling of parts is concerned, it is almost impossible to get a straight answer from anybody. I've asked several retailers about Deda, ITM, etc. and almost none of them even reply. Do you think internet retailers actually post on their site where the items are made? NOPE

Trying to buy jeans made in the US is almost impossible. I thought Carhartt was made in the US and tried to verify it on their website. They don't post a single thing about where their jeans are made. I had to search for a couple of hours to find out that they do have a Union Made Carhartt jeans that costs $3 more. However, finding retailers that carry it wasn't easy either. I found 2 retailers and am going to order a couple of pairs before the winter gets here.

Anyway, this entire "Designed in Italy" "Made in Mexico with fabric from the US" stuff is killing me. The warm weather is here and my C50 still isn't built. That hurts even more.


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> What makes YOU the ONE that decides what is offensive for an entire race. Do ALL blacks/African-Americans check in with you to determine if black is PC or not. My black friend used the term black. As far as I am concerned, he isn't offended by it. FYI - he is also an attorney and he used to work for a pretty large firm before he decided to cut back his pace and get a quasi governmental job. Now, the "n" word nobody should use. Speaking of that, a man in the DC government about 10+ years ago said that a black man was being niggardly and it was used in the correct context because it was referring to money. The Mayor fired the guy, and then looked up the definition and apologized. Sometimes, it just isn't good to jump to conclusions.
> 
> Alright, now taking that you speak for all African-American folk in the US, what makes you think you speak for all Asians. Would EVERY Asian in America be offended by the term Oriental. I've heard other people refer to themselves as Eurasians. I guess that is a mix between Caucasian and Asian, but I'm not sure.
> 
> All this PC stuff gives me a headache. Lord knows I don't take offense to people calling me a ***, as long as it isn't being used during an argument/debate. I am hoping that one day none of this will matter.
> 
> See, it is the throwing around of the term "racist" that shows the hatred. Do you really think I am buying bicycle parts Made in Italy because I dislike Asians? If that were the case, why would I be racing on a Colnago Arte that is made in Taiwan? Why would I own a second Arte frame that is sitting in a box should I wreck the first? If my hatred for Asians was such that I am a racist, why wouldn't I just buy a cheap American or Italian made frame?
> 
> When you are in Venice you can buy all kinds of glass ware that is made in Murano. However, if you were to buy the same exact glass ware while visiting Murano, you would pay an arm and a leg for it just to say you bought it in Murano. I'm paying an arm and a leg just to say that my bike is 100% Italian and I am suffering one heck of a headache doing it. I have had a C50 sitting in my bike stand since October and have not put a single mile on it. I have also had a Record 10 groupo sitting on the workshop bench since September (i.e., the time at which I ordered the frame).
> 
> Since this entire "racist" discussion isn't getting me anywhere to where I need to be, let's just agree to disagree on the racism part and we can let everybody else on here make up their own minds about it. You can continue to think I am a racist and I will continue to think I am not. We are both entitled to our own opinion.



Your argument is specious, at best. At best. And I think a little perspective is in order on your part.

I am black. African-American if you will. You are not. So, it is completely foolish for you to tell me what is offensive or non-offensive to my own race because you claim to have conducted business with 2 black clients (page 4). It is equally judgmental for you to harp about what terms are offensive or non-offensive to Asian people because you asked two of your Asian friends (page 3).


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## fabsroman

rook said:


> Your argument is specious, at best. At best. And I think a little perspective is in order on your part.
> 
> I am black. African-American if you will. You are not. So, it is completely foolish for you to tell me what is offensive or non-offensive to my own race because you claim to have conducted business with 2 black clients (page 4). It is equally judgmental for you to harp about what terms are offensive or non-offensive to Asian people because you asked two of your Asian friends (page 3).


Do you think I only have 2 black clients? That is hilarious. Go back and read where you quoted that from. I believe I said I worked on matters for 2 black clients that day. Weren't you the one telling me to use direct quotes earlier?

It also seems as though your writing style and attention to detail have all of a sudden gotten a lot better.

I'm done arguing with you. If you have nothing to offer other than to try and prove that I am racist, have a good day. If you can actually come up with some suggestions for bars, stems, and 28 hole hubs made in Italy, I'll listen. At this point, I think 10% of your total posts have been to prove I'm a racist, and the remainder might be in podium girls. Continue on if you must.


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## corky

Rook = Threadcrapper


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## ClassicSteel71

I think they still make this in Italy. I could be wrong though.

http://www.selcof.com/07/eng/dovesiamo.php


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## fabsroman

ClassicSteel71 said:


> I think they still make this in Italy. I could be wrong though.
> 
> http://www.selcof.com/07/eng/dovesiamo.php


I would be willing to bet that it is made in Italy because after spending 15 minutes trying to find internet retailers that sell Selcof I was only able to find 2 that carry a limited number of the items, and even then they were pricey. They are almost as hard to find as the WR Compositi parts, which they still have not charged my credit card for, so who knows when I will see the hubs and skewers that I ordered over the weekend.


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## dave2pvd

Soon we'll be able to buy Chryslers made in Italy


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## eff_dee

LOL

I can't believe this thread got so out of hand. The guy just wants some parts made by Italians. Geez.


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## ClassicSteel71

fabsroman said:


> I would be willing to bet that it is made in Italy because after spending 15 minutes trying to find internet retailers that sell Selcof I was only able to find 2 that carry a limited number of the items, and even then they were pricey. They are almost as hard to find as the WR Compositi parts, which they still have not charged my credit card for, so who knows when I will see the hubs and skewers that I ordered over the weekend.


Did you call the importer or do you just like to make things difficult. Also did you ever call CompetitiveCyclist.com about the WR stuff?

http://www.redroseimports.com/


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## fabsroman

ClassicSteel71 said:


> Did you call the importer or do you just like to make things difficult. Also did you ever call CompetitiveCyclist.com about the WR stuff?
> 
> http://www.redroseimports.com/


Trust me, my life is difficult enough already.

I didn't call Competitive Cyclist, but I did e-mail them about the WR Compositi components. Heck, even e-mailed them about Deda to ask if it was made in Italy and they had no idea. Here was the reply about WR Compositi:


<tt><tt>Hello,

Actually, the WR seatpost is the only product that we stock. The
distributor specifically carries the WR seatposts to fit Pegoretti
frames, but they do not stock any of the other components.

Cheers,

Brett Cole
Competitive Cyclist
888-276-7130
EXT: 8550
direct line: 501 916 8550
5050 Northshore Lane
North Little Rock, AR 72118
</tt></tt></pre>I'm going to wait a week or two to see if I ever get the charge and/or the WR Compositi components from bikeonline.it.


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## real schwinns only

China is the place that makes almost all high end bicycles so if you want get robbed buy some big brand bicycle with a euro brand name that you have been told about or you remember. (from when bicycles were really made in the country of origin and built and produced there and not just assembled there ) or just go to the real Manufacturer i.e the chinese outsourser. why pay 60% more? for a euro branded decal on the same chinese bicycle you could be paying less for, but most brand freak's and bicycle snobs dont get it and won't accept it. and worse yet the new cyclist or former cyclist that been away for bicycles some time ( i.e unknowing John Q consumer )being told about some great euro bicycle company's history by some deceptive bicycle salesman who don't even ride a bicycle and probably has not seen his toes since the doctor smacked his bottom.and he knows bloody damn well they have not produced a bicycle in the eu in years. good fortune not all salesmen are that uncouth but don't believe all the popycock that some bicycle shops will try tell you about the quality of some brands that are priced hundred's less just because they are not sold by that shop. The good news is there are many well made bicycles out there.so find a honest shop you can trust, they are out there.quality light wieght bicycles don't have to cost a fortune. and train right so you can show the weight freaks and brand snobs a thing or too on your next training jaunt. happy cycling, ride whatever whenever lifes short.


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## fabsroman

And here I thought this thread was finally dead. For one thing, I know my C50 was assembled in Italy from carbon fiber tubes that were made by ATR in Italy. Now, whether ATR gets its raw materials from China, I have no idea.

Colnago is decently up front about where its bikes are being made. With that said, the fork on my C50 was made in Taiwan, as are all Carbon 75 forks. So, that blew the 100% made in Italy dream out the window and I went with made in Taiwan Cinelli bars.

One thing I will say is that the companies with a long history probably have more capital and a larger R&D department/budget. That is just how it goes. They also have more history in the sport/process. This is kind of like Hyundai. Those cars were POS when they first came out, but by gaining market share through price point, Hyundai has been able to improve its designs, performance, and reliability. With that said, my wife paid the same amount for her top of the line Sonata as I paid for my lower level Taurus and the Sonata has been a PITA with repairs and Hyundai was cheap everywhere they could be (e.g., timing belt instead of the double roller timing chain that I have on the Taurus). Everything was fine until the warranty ran and I had to start doing the repairs. 7 years old and the heater core has to be replaced. I have never replaced the heater core on any other car, and my dad's Ford truck is 15 years old, my Taurus is 12 years old, my Mustang is 20 years old, and the Ford Fairmont I drove before the Taurus made it to 18 years of age without the heater core ever being replaced.

Don't be fooled. There is a lot more to bicycle manufacturer than just where the bike is made. I bet Pinarello doesn't design their bikes in Taiwan. Heck, I bet a majority of companies do their design work at some office far away from Taiwan and merely employ Taiwan labor to put everything together.

FYI - I bought my Colnago Cristallo for about the same price as the leading Giant frame at the time. The big difference is the price point of "Italian" good in the US. Made in Italy costs more in the US for some reason than it costs in Italy, whereas Made in China gets a discount.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman,

I don't know how I missed this thread until now. I'm ethnic Chinese and you have my *full* support. 

I myself wouldn't go near any Chinese/Taiwanese bicylce with a 40 foot pole. Hell, I won't use Japanese components. 

When I build an Italian bicycle, I myself would want it to be Italian. All of it. I ride Italian bicycles, drive German cars and wear Swiss watches. Anyone can call me any name they want... snob, elitist, n*gg*r.. its all good. I couldn't care less.


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## fabsroman

Thanks man. For some reason, some people just don't understand how heritage/history can mean anything to other people when making buying decisions.


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## The_Kraken

*Viva La France*

If it disturbs you to have Chinese parts on your bike, you do have the option of going 100% French. TIME makes their frames, bars, stems, and wheels right in Paris. Slap some Campy on their and you have a 100% European race machine.


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## chuckice

The_Kraken said:


> If it disturbs you to have Chinese parts on your bike, you do have the option of going 100% French. TIME makes their frames, bars, stems, and wheels right in Paris. Slap some Campy on their and you have a 100% European race machine.


Except that it's French.


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## fabsroman

chuckice said:


> Except that it's French.


Exactly. No Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## nrspeed

iyeoh said:


> I ride Italian bicycles, drive German cars and wear Swiss watches


iyeoh gets it. 


As a current 2x Time and 2x Colnago owner, chuckice and fabsroman are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.


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## fabsroman

nrspeed said:


> iyeoh gets it.
> 
> 
> As a current 2x Time and 2x Colnago owner, chuckice and fabsroman are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.


I guess that would mean EVERY Colnago owner is a moron if Time is just that much better. Hard to believe that Colnago even sells any frames with Time being that much better.

Your opinion is duly noted, and it is duly noted that it is merely an opinion.


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## nrspeed

You are jumping to specious conclusions all on your own. :mad2: 

FYI- you had better change your pedals before someone calls you a francophile


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## fabsroman

nrspeed said:


> You are jumping to specious conclusions all on your own. :mad2:
> 
> FYI- you had better change your pedals before someone calls you a francophile


Here is what you wrote:



> As a current 2x Time and 2x Colnago owner, chuckice and fabsroman are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.


Now, where did I go wrong? I figure with that comment you are insinuating that Time is better than Colnago. If Time isn't better than Colnago, how would I be cutting off my nose to spite my face because I prefer to buy an Italian Colnago over a French Time. Plus, if I were to go the French route, I would go Look instead of Time.

You are correct that my pedals are Look, and while I thought about going to Speedplays, I decided to stay with Look because of the customer service that Chas has given me. If I could no longer find a frame made in Italy, I would probably opt for a Look, even if they are made in France. If I couldn't find anything made in Italy and Look was also made in the far east, I would probably go Colnago - Made in Taiwan or something Made in America.


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## real schwinns only

*question?*



nrspeed said:


> iyeoh gets it.
> 
> 
> As a current 2x Time and 2x Colnago owner, chuckice and fabsroman are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.


 Does anybody ride any more?.!!! Why most are here in village blog or trying build a ultra super fly weight bicycle. that could quite possibly fatigue and take years off ones life, (ever wonder why master builder Ernesto Colnago said in Interview he does not like to build bicycles under 18lbs? the reason is quite simple as he said he likes to sleep at night.!!!!) or spending hours in bicycle shops trying to one up your cycling mates with the latest equipment, I am riding my 21lb steel tubed 27year old hand made 12 speed Japanese road racer. why? Because cycling is bloody great and thats what i enjoy.but one thing i can tell you is these bloggers are bloody more entertaining than any thing on the old telly, tell your mates the BBC could use a few good comedic writers. happy cycling, ride whatever whenever lifes short.


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## The_Kraken

*Where in France is Tunisia? I can't find it!*

The home of Carthage that Rome destroyed. Looks are made in AFRICA! The ONLY Look frame made in France is the track frame.

Watch and learn:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=36957191445

Colnago and TIME are the 2 best bike brands. Your ride preference will guide you towards which one. The aesthetic up to now goes to Colnago. But if I had to pick between the RXR VIP and a 2010 stock color EPS, the decision would be obvious.

Where Colnago's carbon fibre comes from can best be answered somewhere in the middle of the Bermuda triangle. TIME weaves their own.


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## iyeoh

Let's stop arguing about the virtues of different brands in a Colnago forum. 

I prefer steel bikes but I have to interject here. 

Colnago's carbon fiber DOES NOT come from the middle of the Bermuda triangle. 

It comes from the ATR Group in Colonnella, Italy under the famed Umberto Pierantozzi. You guys in cycling circles may not know him, but he's a visionary in auto sports.

ATR debuted in Formula Uno in 1986 with Minardi. Since then, they have supplied the fiber for the F-50, the Bugatti Veyron, the Audi GT R8 Le Mans car, the world championship Aprilia GP motorbike, Ducati Corse, Yamaha (the Japanese buy from them!), the Pagani Zonda, Porsche Carrera GT, the Ferrari Enzo, Maserati MC12, Peugeot Rally car (the Frenchbuy from them), the Agusta Helicopter, the Alcatel Space Antenna (more French customers), DTM (the European Space Station) and of course the current world champion Ferrari 333SP and McLaren Formula One cars. Hell, even Louis Vuitton carbon fiber uses their materials. Enough heritage there?

I'm too broke to own a carbon fiber Ferrari or a carbon Porsche (and probably won't ever be able to afford one.. not at a million bucks each), but I still adore those cars as owner of those brands, just like I adore Colnago but don't own a carbon Colnago. 

But don't anyone smack talk the supplier to Ferrari and Colnago!

www.atrgroup.it

No offense to Time Sport, but they are still a bicycle factory. Just Time bicycles.


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## The_Kraken

iyeoh said:


> Colnago's carbon fiber DOES NOT come from the middle of the Bermuda triangle.
> 
> It comes from the ATR Group in Colonnella, Italy under the famed Umberto Pierantozzi. You guys in cycling circles may not know him, but he's a visionary in auto sports.


A passionate argument, yet one that is not so. The tubing for some of the bikes is made in Italy, yet the carbon that forms the tubing DOES NOT come from ATR any more.


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## nightfend

The_Kraken said:


> A passionate argument, yet one that is not so. The tubing for some of the bikes is made in Italy, yet the carbon that forms the tubing DOES NOT come from ATR any more.


The 2008 Extreme Power and C-50 use ATR composite carbon fiber for all of the tubes and lugs. Since Fabrizio has a 2008 Extreme Power, I'd say the ATR mention is relevant.


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## iyeoh

So the C-50 still uses ATR carbon? Yes? If so, then why isn't their top of the line EPS frame using the best carbon fiber (or the best noted) in the world?

I guess until this is clarified, I won't be buying any carbon bikes from Colnago.


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## nightfend

If it was built in 2008, then it used ATR carbon. I am not sure about 2009 and now the 2010 models. But I wouldn't be surprised is the EPS's still use ATR carbon.


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## fabsroman

nightfend said:


> If it was built in 2008, then it used ATR carbon. I am not sure about 2009 and now the 2010 models. But I wouldn't be surprised is the EPS's still use ATR carbon.


My C50 frame with the 2008 ST01 paint scheme was ordered the first week of September 2009. So, if it was built as a 2008 frame or a 2009 frame with a 2008 paint scheme on it, I have no clue.

Let's just let me live in my fantasy world and believe that the frame is Italian, even though I now know the fork was made in Taiwan, as are all 75 Carbon forks nowadays.

I tried to make the C50 as Made in Italy as possible and it turned out to be a headache. It was so bad that I finally gave up on that dream and just succumbed to having some of the parts made in Taiwan/China, with Italian names on them.


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## sabre104

Can't believe this thread was resurrected. Here's a pic of my Italian/Japanese/Taiwanese/Chinese and German Colnago EP

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/download/file.php?id=30726&mode=view


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## rodist

Now that it's not 100 % Italian, throw on a DA 7900 group and experience what crisp perfect shifting feels like. Just kidding.

Do you use a Ram Bar or Ram Bar Bianca


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## fabsroman

rodist said:


> Now that it's not 100 % Italian, throw on a DA 7900 group and experience what crisp perfect shifting feels like. Just kidding.
> 
> Do you use a Ram Bar or Ram Bar Bianca


I just commented on the Dura Ace on your Colnago in the K-Edge thread. LOL

I have a Ram Bar one piece bar/stem on my Cristallo, Arte, and Bianchi FG Lite. The Cristallo is the traditional Ram Bar in black with a small silver stripe. The Arte and FG Lite have a Ram Bar that is all silver on the top. The C50 is a Ram Bar and Cinelli Neo Stem. The Ram Bar on that bikes is the new VRC design, but I haven't had the chance to really test it out yet.

Is that the Dura Ace 7900 groupo you have on your bike? A couple of riding buddies of mine run Shimano on their bikes and they could not believe how much the electronic shifting costs. I'll wait until Campy decides to go that way, and then maybe 11 speeds AND electronic shifting might convince me to upgrade components.


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## tecnosabba

Someone in this forum, or at least on RBR, already provided the news some time ago.

ATR is currently insolvent and under extraordinary administration (some sort of Chapter 11) under Italian bankruptcy law. it does not appear that production would have stopped, though. However, in such cases, production is usually limited to profit-generating activities only, which might not necessarily be the case for bike tubing.

http://www.atrgroup.it/

Website is also available in English.


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## fabsroman

tecnosabba said:


> Someone in this forum, or at least on RBR, already provided the news some time ago.
> 
> ATR is currently insolvent and under extraordinary administration (some sort of Chapter 11) under Italian bankruptcy law. it does not appear that production would have stopped, though. However, in such cases, production is usually limited to profit-generating activities only, which might not necessarily be the case for bike tubing.
> 
> http://www.atrgroup.it/
> 
> Website is also available in English.


What makes you think that bike tubing isn't a profitable endeavor? Do you think ATR was selling bicycle tubing as part of its charitable division?


----------



## rodist

.[/QUOTE] The C50 is a Ram Bar and Cinelli Neo Stem. The Ram Bar on that bikes is the new VRC design, but I haven't had the chance to really test it out yet.

Is that the Dura Ace 7900 groupo you have on your bike? A couple of riding buddies of mine run Shimano on their bikes and they could not believe how much the electronic shifting costs. I'll wait until Campy decides to go that way, and then maybe 11 speeds AND electronic shifting might convince me to upgrade components.[/QUOTE]


I have Dura Ace 7800 and with 18,000 miles on it still shifts like new. Granted my bike lives in my office and is cleaned after every ride. I did get to ride the DI2 electronic shifting group. It is insane how accurate and quick the shifts are. The cost is also insane. 
This is a product for DI2 that makes me like my cables and barrel adjusters.
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...ec79-system-checkerprogrammer-5968.355.0.html

I love my Modolo Bars but the Ram VCR bar looks a little more comfy where the hoods connect.


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## tecnosabba

fabsroman said:


> What makes you think that bike tubing isn't a profitable endeavor? Do you think ATR was selling bicycle tubing as part of its charitable division?



I do think nothing, at least with respect to ATR, and at this stage, I just guess. It might be that tubing was not generating profit anymore, or even losses, whereas other areas of activity are still profitable. This might be an explanation as to the fact that Colnago does not seem to source their carbon tubes from ATR anymore.

ATR must have been incurring losses, huge losses, from some activity, otherwise they would not be under extraordinary administration, would they ?


----------



## fabsroman

I tried to go the Modolo route too, but they wouldn't answer my e-mail about where the parts are made and finding the parts wasn't very easy either. I am seriously debating taking a trip to Italy once a year, buying a ton of Italian made bicycle components and opening up my own ebay store for Italian bike components. I'd carry stuff like Modolo, Miche, Gipiemme, and the list goes on and on.


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## nightfend

I've heard that if you want to buy from Europe, calling by phone is the best method. Often times, e-mails will be ignored and never read.

Even in the US many companies have horrible e-mail service. Reynold's for example can rarely be contacted by e-mail, you gotta call them if you want a reply.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> I tried to go the Modolo route too, but they wouldn't answer my e-mail about where the parts are made and finding the parts wasn't very easy either. I am seriously debating taking a trip to Italy once a year, buying a ton of Italian made bicycle components and opening up my own ebay store for Italian bike components. I'd carry stuff like Modolo, Miche, Gipiemme, and the list goes on and on.



Honestly, I would rather pack up a bunch of American-Taiwanese frames and Japanese components and bring them to Italy to sell those. The Italians seem to dig those Japanese components so much (including old man Ernesto), and they like American branded frames. 

*That* I absolutely don't understand. Its like a couple of haute cuisine chefs at a couple of Michelin three star restaurants lusting after Big Macs and fries. Like producing Dom Perignon or Cristall and lusting after Kool Aid.

Whatever. Sell them whatever they want to buy at exhorbitant prices... why is the demand for Taiwanese frames so damn high in Europe??


----------



## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> Honestly, I would rather pack up a bunch of American-Taiwanese frames and Japanese components and bring them to Italy to sell those. The Italians seem to dig those Japanese components so much (including old man Ernesto), and they like American branded frames.
> 
> *That* I absolutely don't understand. Its like a couple of haute cuisine chefs at a couple of Michelin three star restaurants lusting after Big Macs and fries. Like producing Dom Perignon or Cristall and lusting after Kool Aid.
> 
> Whatever. Sell them whatever they want to buy at exhorbitant prices... why is the demand for Taiwanese frames so damn high in Europe??


Hey, I can get it done on both ends. I can ship the Taiwanese stuff to Europe and I can import the Italian stuff into the states. I'm all about supply and demand. Show me where I can make a buck and I'll try pretty hard. Believe me, I've been kicking around this idea for 2 years now. Even been thinking about starting my own shop, but the attorney/CPA gig is paying pretty decent lately and the chance of a mass loss isn't very high compared to owning a bike shop.


----------



## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> Hey, I can get it done on both ends. I can ship the Taiwanese stuff to Europe and I can import the Italian stuff into the states. I'm all about supply and demand. Show me where I can make a buck and I'll try pretty hard. Believe me, I've been kicking around this idea for 2 years now. Even been thinking about starting my own shop, but the attorney/CPA gig is paying pretty decent lately and the chance of a mass loss isn't very high compared to owning a bike shop.


My gig pays pretty well too, and Capitol Hill wants to regulate my pay. That's the only reason why I haven't jumped into the bike shop thing myself. 

More importantly, why do those Europeans dig all that stuff from Taiwan? Meanwhile, my three Japanese friends who ride bikes only ride Super Record 11. 80% of my circle of Asian friends only ride Italian and French bikes.


----------



## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> More importantly, why do those Europeans dig all that stuff from Taiwan? Meanwhile, my three Japanese friends who ride bikes only ride Super Record 11. 80% of my circle of Asian friends only ride Italian and French bikes.


Everybody wants the new thing. The Europeans have seen Colnago, Pinarello, and Campagnolo for decades. Giant, Shimano, etc. look great, as do Trek and SRAM. It is the opposite here. It is impossible to find Italian frames and Campy components, so they are a novelty. Meanwhile, all you have to do is walk into your LBS and you can find all the Shimano you want. Pretty good selection of Giants and Treks in this neck of the woods too. I know of two shops that carry Colnago, or I should say carried Colnago because one just decided to stop carrying Colnago. If I were to walk into any bike shop within 30 minutes of me and see a Colnago on the rack, I would be shocked.


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> Everybody wants the new thing. The Europeans have seen Colnago, Pinarello, and Campagnolo for decades. Giant, Shimano, etc. look great, as do Trek and SRAM. It is the opposite here. It is impossible to find Italian frames and Campy components, so they are a novelty. Meanwhile, all you have to do is walk into your LBS and you can find all the Shimano you want. Pretty good selection of Giants and Treks in this neck of the woods too. I know of two shops that carry Colnago, or I should say carried Colnago because one just decided to stop carrying Colnago. If I were to walk into any bike shop within 30 minutes of me and see a Colnago on the rack, I would be shocked.



Then pipe down and go online for all your Italian stuff if that's all you want. Your Anti-Asian buying sentiments will garner you much respect from your ilk.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> Then pipe down and go online for all your Italian stuff if that's all you want. Your Anti-Asian buying sentiments will garner you much respect from your ilk.


Wow, if we keep this up I might just have the record for post views/posts on a thread in the Colnago forum.

Have you read this entire thread, or just the snippet that you qouted? Did you read what I wrote in the context of what I was replying to?

Continue on. Let's keep this thread at the top of the board so I can get some more views and posts on it. It is utterly amazing how this thing keeps getting revived.

What I should do is go to the General forum and post the following poll:

"Is there anything wrong with wanting to build a 100% Italian Colnago?"
1) Yes
2) No


----------



## Fai Mao

Campagnolo owns a manufacturing plant in Taiwan. The Fulcrum wheels are made there. Campy influenced but no Campy name. I've been waiting for The lower end Campy parts to have the production moved there. Romania is joining the EU they will have the strong currency issues in a couple of years.


----------



## tdi-rick

nightfend said:


> I've heard that if you want to buy from Europe, calling by phone is the best method. Often times, e-mails will be ignored and never read.
> 
> <snip>


That's what I did nine years ago when buying Extralite bits. IIRC there was no response to email, so rang, talked (they all spoke English there) and off we went, swapped a few faxes and I had my bits in the mail a few weeks later.


----------



## rook

Fai Mao said:


> Campagnolo owns a manufacturing plant in Taiwan. The Fulcrum wheels are made there. Campy influenced but no Campy name. I've been waiting for The lower end Campy parts to have the production moved there. Romania is joining the EU they will have the strong currency issues in a couple of years.




Yeah, good point. Won't make any difference to people though. People like the original poster just make underhanded racist comments and defend it with some stupid nonsense to justify their racist beliefs.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> Yeah, good point. Won't make any difference to people though. People like the original poster just make underhanded racist comments and defend it with some stupid nonsense to justify their racist beliefs.


Somehow, I just knew your simple self would have to come back on here and make a comment about this. Continue on with the racist label if it makes you feel better. The people on here that know me, and the people that really know me in person, know I am not a racist. Then there are the others that just cannot read English very well.

There is another post on here, rather recent, about when buying a Colnago one should expect it to be made in Italy, what with Italy having 100+ years of bike building history to it. I'm sure that person is a racist too according to you.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> Yeah, good point. Won't make any difference to people though. People like the original poster just make underhanded racist comments and defend it with some stupid nonsense to justify their racist beliefs.


And here is the thread I was talking about:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2553714#poststop

How dare these racist pigs think that Colnagos should be made in Italy instead of the far east. Kind of like a Ferrari owner expecting to have their Ferrari made in Italy. How dare they.


----------



## Fai Mao

I don't know about racist but the word "snob" come to mind. I think that applies and I will happily admit that it applies to me in the sense that I do not, unless it is utterly unavoidable, ride Shimano equipped bikes, not even cassettes or chains. Now, I have what are to my mind some good reasons, I don't like the feel of the shifting , they are ugly, overpriced (Compared to the Euro denominated Campagnolo parts) and so forth and so on. But a lot of it just comes down to a visceral hatred of Shimano that I developed in the late 1970's. 

That said, if Campagnolo started making derailleurs in Taiwan I'd applaud provided that they used the Fulcrum name and priced them like products made in Taiwan. 

That is the real problem. Colnago or Cinelli or 3T or ITM make something in China, Taiwan, or Malaysia and then sell it for a price like they are making it in a high labor cost country. Somehow or another I just feel I am being scammed


----------



## real schwinns only

fabsroman said:


> Somehow, I just knew your simple self would have to come back on here and make a comment about this. Continue on with the racist label if it makes you feel better. The people on here that know me, and the people that really know me in person, know I am not a racist. Then there are the others that just cannot read English very well.
> 
> There is another post on here, rather recent, about when buying a Colnago one should expect it to be made in Italy, what with Italy having 100+ years of bike building history to it. I'm sure that person is a racist too according to you.


Spot on mate i could not have put it any better.!!!!!!!


----------



## real schwinns only

Fai Mao said:


> I don't know about racist but the word "snob" come to mind. I think that applies and I will happily admit that it applies to me in the sense that I do not, unless it is utterly unavoidable, ride Shimano equipped bikes, not even cassettes or chains. Now, I have what are to my mind some good reasons, I don't like the feel of the shifting , they are ugly, overpriced (Compared to the Euro denominated Campagnolo parts) and so forth and so on. But a lot of it just comes down to a visceral hatred of Shimano that I developed in the late 1970's.
> 
> That said, if Campagnolo started making derailleurs in Taiwan I'd applaud provided that they used the Fulcrum name and priced them like products made in Taiwan.
> 
> That is the real problem. Colnago or Cinelli or 3T or ITM make something in China, Taiwan, or Malaysia and then sell it for a price like they are making it in a high labor cost country. Somehow or another I just feel I am being scammed


 yes price gouging and slave labor and inferior products has became common pactise or the favour of the day in a global economy. I just don't think it's best to be deceptive and charge your customer for what hes not getting.!!!!!!!


----------



## MERAKMAN

real schwinns only said:


> yes price gouging and slave labor and inferior products has became common pactise or the favour of the day in a global economy. I just don't think it best to be deceptive and charge your customer for what hes not getting.!!!!!!!


I agree on the whole, although I don't think Far Eastern made frames are inferior now.

Imagine, worst case scenario though, if all 'Italian' production went to the Far East. Would consumers still pay the same prices as now for a non Italian made frame? We'd have no choice.


----------



## fabsroman

Fai Mao said:


> I don't know about racist but the word "snob" come to mind. I think that applies and I will happily admit that it applies to me in the sense that I do not, unless it is utterly unavoidable, ride Shimano equipped bikes, not even cassettes or chains. Now, I have what are to my mind some good reasons, I don't like the feel of the shifting , they are ugly, overpriced (Compared to the Euro denominated Campagnolo parts) and so forth and so on. But a lot of it just comes down to a visceral hatred of Shimano that I developed in the late 1970's.
> 
> That said, if Campagnolo started making derailleurs in Taiwan I'd applaud provided that they used the Fulcrum name and priced them like products made in Taiwan.
> 
> That is the real problem. Colnago or Cinelli or 3T or ITM make something in China, Taiwan, or Malaysia and then sell it for a price like they are making it in a high labor cost country. Somehow or another I just feel I am being scammed


That pretty much sums it up for me.

An example I have is a set of Cinelli Ram bars that I paid $600 for that say Made in Italy on them and another set of the exact same model Cinelli Ram bars I bought the following year for $600 that say Designed in Italy on them. What a crock.

Me, I started racing in 1984 when I was 13 years old. I think my first bike, a Trek 560 might have had Suntour on it, maybe even Shimano. Definitely not Campy though. A year or two later, my parents bought me a Mino Denti in lieu of the Colnago I wanted, and they included some Campy stuff on it. Over the next couple of years, I upgraded all the Nuove Record to Super Record, and was really lusting over the C Record when it came out. For some reason, I just think about Italian made bikes and Italian components when it comes to cycling. Same goes for guns for me.

With that said, I happen to own a couple of Shimano rod/reel combos that I have been fishing with for the past 8 years. I'll probably replace them with something different when the time comes, but for now they are getting the job done.

By the way, I would easily label myself a bike and gun snob.


----------



## tidi

real schwinns only said:


> Spot on mate i could not have put it any better.!!!!!!!


+1, i can't believe he is still ranting about racial issues around here. i wish he would get a warning or something.


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## zoikz

*Stella Azzura*

Pretty sure the non-carbon stuff is still done in Italy. 
They've kinda dropped off the radar so it's a bit tough finding the stuff.


----------



## nicensleazy

there is nothing wrong with wanting to source Italian parts.............as when I go to the suppermarket and like to buy home grown 'British' produce. Of course, its not always possible, but I try. And by the way, thats one of the reason's why I bought an EPS, because it is 100% made in Italy!


----------



## MERAKMAN

nicensleazy said:


> there is nothing wrong with wanting to source Italian parts.............as when I go to the suppermarket and like to buy home grown 'British' produce. Of course, its not always possible, but I try. And by the way, thats one of the reason's why I bought an EPS, because it is 100% made in Italy!


Here, here! What it says on the tin is what it is. Home grown.


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> Somehow, I just knew your simple self would have to come back on here and make a comment about this. Continue on with the racist label if it makes you feel better. The people on here that know me, and the people that really know me in person, know I am not a racist. Then there are the others that just cannot read English very well.
> 
> There is another post on here, rather recent, about when buying a Colnago one should expect it to be made in Italy, what with Italy having 100+ years of bike building history to it. I'm sure that person is a racist too according to you.



No. I was only commenting about yourself, not about your cousin.


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## iyeoh

What is wrong with exercising consumer choice? Not buying Asian goods does not make one a racist.


----------



## iyeoh

Hey.. I'm ethnic Chinese. When it comes to bicycles, I rather not buy Taiwanese frames or Shimano, and if its made in Taiwan or China, I'll avoid. Heck, my 4-year old kid rides a German tricycle. I refuse to buy him any American/Taiwanese products.

I must be an immense racist!


----------



## iyeoh

Its like picking up an Aston Martin DB9 in British Racing Green, and then looking at the tyres, and find out it says "Bridgestone."


----------



## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> Its like picking up an Aston Martin DB9 in British Racing Green, and then looking at the tyres, and find out it says "Bridgestone."


Or a Ferrari in good old Ferrari red and finding Goodyear tires on it instead of Pirelli. Blasphemy I tell ya. LOL


----------



## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> Or a Ferrari in good old Ferrari red and finding Goodyear tires on it instead of Pirelli. Blasphemy I tell ya. LOL


Pfft that's nothing... for real... my 355 F1 S came with Kumho Tires from Korea.. and the rear tires were out of manufacturer spec too !


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> No. I was only commenting about yourself, not about your cousin.


Just wondering if you blame your problems in life on rascism. Me, I'm going to start blaming mine on affirmative action and reverse rascism. We all need scape goats now don't we.


----------



## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> Pfft that's nothing... for real... my 355 F1 S came with Kumho Tires from Korea !


Now I am jealous. After we get a house I'm saving for a Ferrari. This legal business stuff just isn't paying well enough.


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## iyeoh

Like taking Veal Sorrentino and pouring soy sauce on top for flavor.

Like taking Osso Bucco and serving it with ketchup and fries.


----------



## Clevor

iyeoh said:


> Hey.. I'm ethnic Chinese. When it comes to bicycles, I rather not buy Taiwanese frames or Shimano, and if its made in Taiwan or China, I'll avoid. Heck, my 4-year old kid rides a German tricycle. I refuse to buy him any American/Taiwanese products.
> 
> I must be an immense racist!


Well it's a good thing you don't have Fabrosman's original zeal to build at all Italian bike, because then you'd have to give up cycling as a hobby! :lol: 

There's a similar thread on WW which said that Colnago is being bought out by a company which is 70% owned by Giant. This used to be an old rumor but the poster claims it's the latest story with Colnago. Then a post after it which says Ernesto denies this. Well go believe who you will.

I remember around three years ago a U.S. vendor (who shall go unnamed) told me he's positive the C50 is being sourced in Taiwan or China. He told me there's a lot of C50 frames selling for cheap in Hong Kong. He also told me he's received C50s which were drop shipped direct from China. I posted this on a forum back then but don't recall which one. Maybe my post is buried somewhere on this forum.

I got my C50 in 2005 from Totalcycling.com. It was shipped in the original box from the factory. The series of labels showed it went from the factory in Italy to Madison UK and forwarded to me from there. Whew! At least I'm safe!

I'm pretty sure I've got an authentic, Made-in-Italy C50, because I checked the steerer tube on the Star fork: yup, the walls are not the same diameter all the way around. :thumbsup:


----------



## fabsroman

Clevor said:


> Well it's a good thing you don't have Fabrosman's original zeal to build at all Italian bike, because then you'd have to give up cycling as a hobby! :lol:
> 
> There's a similar thread on WW which said that Colnago is being bought out by a company which is 70% owned by Giant. This used to be an old rumor but the poster claims it's the latest story with Colnago. Then a post after it which says Ernesto denies this. Well go believe who you will.
> 
> I remember around three years ago a U.S. vendor (who shall go unnamed) told me he's positive the C50 is being sourced in Taiwan or China. He told me there's a lot of C50 frames selling for cheap in Hong Kong. He also told me he's received C50s which were drop shipped direct from China. I posted this on a forum back then but don't recall which one. Maybe my post is buried somewhere on this forum.
> 
> I got my C50 in 2005 from Totalcycling.com. It was shipped in the original box from the factory. The series of labels showed it went from the factory in Italy to Madison UK and forwarded to me from there. Whew! At least I'm safe!
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've got an authentic, Made-in-Italy C50, because I checked the steerer tube on the Star fork: yup, the walls are not the same diameter all the way around. :thumbsup:


Yep, after 6 months of searching and headaches I have found out that building a 100% Italian bike is 100% impossible nowadays. I guess it was still impossible in the 80's too because the spokes were Swiss made, but at least Switzerland is somewhat close to Italy. LOL


----------



## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> Now I am jealous. After we get a house I'm saving for a Ferrari. This legal business stuff just isn't paying well enough.


Its too bad that you doidn't choose to be a blood sucking banker who soaks the public for a big TARP bailout after big bets with the money of innocent children and widows and vets, and then seek a gigantic guaranteed bonus that you feel you are entitled to.


----------



## iyeoh

I have enough wonderful beautiful authentic Colnagos (sorry Fabs) that I don't need to buy another Colnago again if some Taiwanese private equity firm undertakes a LBO of Colnago.


----------



## Clevor

fabsroman said:


> Yep, after 6 months of searching and headaches I have found out that building a 100% Italian bike is 100% impossible nowadays. I guess it was still impossible in the 80's too because the spokes were Swiss made, but at least Switzerland is somewhat close to Italy. LOL


I too, had notions of putting predominately Italian components on my C50, but gave that up a long time ago. For one thing, I think Campy carbon cranks really look lame (and they haven't changed the design in the last five years). I do have the first carbon crank they made in 2003, but that is mainly a museum piece. I had bought a Colnago headset (which is made by Silva in Italy), but it looks like a toy next to a Chris King. So I decided to put what I feel are the best components on my C50, both from a build quality and aesthetic standpoint. So a Chris King headset will go on it, and one of the ole FSA Pro Team Carbon cranks, since the gorgeous 3K weave matches up well with the frame.

I have different 'theme' looks for the bike, so since it has the WC paint scheme, one setup would have Ritchey components installed since the WC color bands on their components go well with the frame. Towards this end, I did make sure to pick up one of the ole Ritchey compact cranks with 3K weave and WC graphics, as well as a fork. Again, all their stuff is (or was) 3K weave which will match the frame.

I also bought a Campy seatpost for the C50, but the thing is a pig at 225 gms. If I really wanted to go lightweight, I can put a 27.1 reducer shim (27 gms) and 138 gm Forte seatpost I cut down. So I may also go function over form.


----------



## Fai Mao

fabsroman said:


> Yep, after 6 months of searching and headaches I have found out that building a 100% Italian bike is 100% impossible nowadays. I guess it was still impossible in the 80's too because the spokes were Swiss made, but at least Switzerland is somewhat close to Italy. LOL


Italian is one of the official languages of Switzerland

The shop that sells Colnago in Hong Kong, at lest the only one I know of, is "Wings Bicycles" I bought my Battaglin there. The shop is hard to find because it is up stairs in a building fronted by the Ladies Street - Street Market. It is owned by an old Chinese man who sings Italian opera while he puts bikes together and sells mainly Italian frames. The guy has a voice like Pavarotti and likes to sing Verdi. Several years ago his shop was at the ground level on Tung Choi Street, he had no AC and tourist would stand in front of the shop to listen to him sing. He closes every year for a couple of weeks to go to Italy and buy frames from the factory. If you want Campagnolo in Hong Kong this is the best place to go. He stopped buying Pinnerello when they started being made in China.

Somehow I think he'd do the same thing if Colnago were being made by China Bike


----------



## iyeoh

I have friends in*Taiwan* and Japan who refuse to ride Taiwanese bikes or Shimano components. They ride only all-Italian bikes, and I don't mean just branded ones either. Does that say something? The last guy I spoke to belligerently told me that Trek and SRAM are for Americans like Armstrong.. sort of implying that us Americans are less intelligent.


----------



## Fai Mao

iyeoh said:


> I have friends in*Taiwan* and Japan who refuse to ride Taiwanese bikes or Shimano components. They ride only all-Italian bikes, and I don't mean just branded ones either. Does that say something? The last guy I spoke to belligerently told me that Trek and SRAM are for Americans like Armstrong.. sort of implying that us Americans are less intelligent.



Lots of Chinese try to have as little to do with Japanese made products as possible. That is one reason, I believe tha the best selling car in China is the Buick LeSabre. It is a history thing. I admit to being a bit of Itali-snob component wise but I don't dispute that Shimano makes some decent stuff as does Sram. I just don't like the feel of Shimano STI and Sram is not very intuitive to me. I have to think about the rear shifts too much. As too Sram being for Americans and implying intelligence, you should ask them then why can't your country make better parts?


----------



## Fai Mao

In China the word for a European or North American with light skin is "Ghwelio" it means White Devil. Real culturally sensative there. If you have darker skin they use a term that means "Soy Sauce Chicken" Try using that in polite company in the US. Now if you are a person from Nigeria who lives in Hong Kong and they have a special word for you "chimp" 

I have a friend who is ethnically CHinese but grew up in Boston and does not speak Chinese well. She is cursed at in stores in China because they can't believe she cannot speak "God's Tongue"

Also, if you were to ever actully LIVE in China you'd know that even the Chinese avoid prodcts made in China if they can. They shop for groceries at Carrefore or WalMart when possible because they can trust the quality and get actual, not pirate brands. When your one-child-by-national-law dies because of posioned baby food made in your own country, you buy American or European.

So, saying that many products made in China are poor quality is not racist. Often times it is true. If that a product is a name brand that was associated with a particular country then yes it is a deceptive trade practice to make it some where else. Cinelli or ITM or who ever should at least change the model name and lower the price a bit.


----------



## rook

fabsroman said:


> Just wondering if you blame your problems in life on rascism. Me, I'm going to start blaming mine on affirmative action and reverse rascism. We all need scape goats now don't we.



Nah, that ain't my style. Don't bother telling of your hate for affirmative action. I would've already suspected that without you opening your big fat mouth.


----------



## fabsroman

rook said:


> Nah, that ain't my style. Don't bother telling of your hate for affirmative action. I would've already suspected that without you opening your big fat mouth.


No, I think it is exactly your style. Looking for rascism wherever you can find it, thinking that is the reason for your problems. I know plenty of people like you. Some whites even blame affirmative action for their problems since they cannot seriously play the race card.

FYI - I never once opened my "big fat mouth" while typing on here. I let my skinny, dextrous fingers do the communicating.

If you really think I am a racist, why not post a poll in the Colnago forum, referencing this thread, and see how many people agree/disagree with you. Better yet, post the poll in the general forum and reference this thread. Just make sure you include two options:

1) Fabsroman is a racist and hates Asians

2) Fabsroman is NOT a racist and does NOT hate Asians

You can expand it even further and include other races in there if you like.

Oh yeah, make sure you get your friends to sign up and vote in the poll so you do not look like a complete idiot with your accusation.

When Fai Mao revived this thread I decided to refrain from commenting unless you came on here to say something smart, and you did. It took you a little while to reply, but reply you did.


----------



## iyeoh

Its really very simple. For upper society Chinese in China, Europe and America, products that are made in China and/or Taiwan are considered undesirable because of a perception of low quality, in additional to a social stigma, whether justified or not. The ethnic Chinese people that I know overwhelmingly try as hard as possible to avoid products made over there.


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## real schwinns only

Fai Mao said:


> Italian is one of the official languages of Switzerland
> 
> The shop that sells Colnago in Hong Kong, at lest the only one I know of, is "Wings Bicycles" I bought my Battaglin there. The shop is hard to find because it is up stairs in a building fronted by the Ladies Street - Street Market. It is owned by an old Chinese man who sings Italian opera while he puts bikes together and sells mainly Italian frames. The guy has a voice like Pavarotti and likes to sing Verdi. Several years ago his shop was at the ground level on Tung Choi Street, he had no AC and tourist would stand in front of the shop to listen to him sing. He closes every year for a couple of weeks to go to Italy and buy frames from the factory. If you want Campagnolo in Hong Kong this is the best place to go. He stopped buying Pinnerello when they started being made in China.
> 
> Somehow I think he'd do the same thing if Colnago were being made by China Bike


sounds like this old bloke is quite sharp, and has high standards, sounds quite like my kind of shop owner. It really says something about quality Control when when your own country man won't buy a Chinese made Faux Italian racing bicycle.Now maybe if they were made in Taiwan, no on second thought forget it, nothing better than the real thing. with that in mind many years ago the Japanese use to Dissect Cinelli frames to see what made them quite well made bicycles. maybe thats why the Japanese made some quite high quality frames and forks.


----------



## real schwinns only

Quite right the Italian brand name or who ever is using Chinese rubbish should at least have the Couth to change the model name to stop all the Confusing rubbish and drivel, and lower the price a quite bit and have some type of quality at very least level at least have reputable Taiwanese brand that has R&D department. "quote" A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on. 
Sir Winston Churchill


----------



## real schwinns only

fabsroman said:


> Here we go again. I don't worship Europeans, my parents just happen to be from Italy. My dad was born there in 1942 and my mom in 1943. They came here in the 50's. So, is it okay for me to embrace my Italian heritage, or is that something I should get over too?
> 
> As far as cars are concerned, I drive Fords. I will continue to drive Fords as long as they are in business. Possibly a Mercury or Lincoln, but that is pretty much a Ford with wood trim.
> 
> If I could buy a computer made in the US, or anything else for that matter, I would. I try to buy American made whenever I can, but it isn't easy.
> 
> Do you live in the US? Have you read anything about our $3 trillion, that is $3,000,000,000,000.00, trade deficit? I think we need to pay a lot more attention to where we buy things from. If I cannot help the American economy, I would prefer to help the Italian one.
> 
> We are entitled to our own beliefs and the ability to spend our money wherever we want. So, feel free to buy Asian products to your hearts content. I'm not telling you not to. Just get over the fact that some of us would prefer to have our Italian heritage bikes and cars actually made in Italy.
> 
> FYI - I buy Crafstman hand tools Made in the USA by an American company. I buy DeWalt power tools Made in the USA by an American Company, Black & Decker who one of my friends works for in the finance department. Fords, do I have to say made in the USA? My rifles are all Rugers, made in the USA. Shotguns are either Beretta or Bennelli, made in Italy. There is two exceptions. A Browning BPS made in Japan and the sorriest excuse for an over/under Browning Citori made in Japan. Did I mention that Beretta actually has a plant here in Maryland where it manufactures all of its handguns sold in the US and when I had prpblems with one of their guns they took it back there and gave me a new one. Browning did absolutely nothing for me with their made in Japan POS which had way more problems than the one Beretta o/u I had. As far as electonics go, almost all of them are made in the east, but when we get a single family home I'll be buying Harmon Kardon, made in the US which one of my wife's cousins works for.
> 
> The pain about trying to figure out where things are made is that most places try to hide where they make things. I've sent e-mails to Deda, 3T, Modolo, and ITM to ask where they are and guess what, I have not received a single reply from them. Retailers don't list that stuff on their website either.


 I am quite Bloody sure they have not responded i had the same rubbish happen ,Here is a quote i find quite excellent"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on." 
Sir Winston Churchill


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## John BBB

The best frames, wheels and components are made in Asia. Get used to it.


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## iyeoh

John BBB said:


> The best frames, wheels and components are made in Asia. Get used to it.


Yeah... Sure... Plasticized disposable highly pho-ed crap. Indeed, the best.


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## John BBB

Count a few Pro Tour frames that are actually made in US or Europe. Are the frames made in Asia holding teams like Columbia HTC back?


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## iyeoh

They ride what they are paid to ride, where they repace their Dura Ace every year.

They'll outride me on a steel 5 speed Huffy with flat tires.

I don't care if they win 100 Tours with what they ride. I'm not ever buying any of that.

I expect my dad's Italian bikes to be passed down to his great grandchildren, and perhaps their children. The early 70s Nuovo Record wheels I have spin as freely as any of the new stuff. 

I grew up in an environment full of Shimano and SunTour and can appreciate what constitutes quality. A McDonald's sandwich may consist of beef, but it certainly isn't Black Angus.

And for anyone who thinks I'm being racist, I am Chinese.


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## Fai Mao

Shimano and SRAM are both made in Asia. While I am a Campy rider they are not crap.


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## fabsroman

John BBB said:


> Count a few Pro Tour frames that are actually made in US or Europe. Are the frames made in Asia holding teams like Columbia HTC back?


This was your statement above:

_"The best frames, wheels and components are made in Asia. Get used to it."_

Seriously, the best frames come out of Asia? Is that the only place that great frames come from? I'm not going to disagree that Asia makes some pretty nice frames/bikes. Where I disagree is that they are the best, and that no place else in the world will you find a better frame than those made in Asia. There is so much subjective agrument to your statement that neither you nor I can ever prove who is right.


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## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> They ride what they are paid to ride, where they repace their Dura Ace every year.
> 
> They'll outride me on a steel 5 speed Huffy with flat tires.
> 
> I don't care if they win 100 Tours with what they ride. I'm not ever buying any of that.
> 
> I expect my dad's Italian bikes to be passed down to his great grandchildren, and perhaps their children. The early 70s Nuovo Record wheels I have spin as freely as any of the new stuff.
> 
> I grew up in an environment full of Shimano and SunTour and can appreciate what constitutes quality. A McDonald's sandwich may consist of beef, but it certainly isn't Black Angus.
> 
> And for anyone who thinks I'm being racist, I am Chinese.


Hey now, I was labeled a racist for being an Italian-American that wants to build a 100% Italian bike. I'm sure we can figure out a way for what I assume is a Chinese-American to be racist toward his Chinese descendants.

Just in case you don't realize this, the above was written tongue in cheek. This entire racist stuff blows my mind. Next thing you know I'll be a racist because I prefer Ford over Asian made cars or cars made by Asian majority owned companies.

I avoid Shell gas stations because they are supposedly owned by Venezuela, and I don't like Chavez's policies, but that is probably racist of me too.


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## Fai Mao

Quatto Assi Frames were made in Japan. They were really cool bike several years ago. They even looked like Italian bikes


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## fabsroman

Fai Mao said:


> Quatto Assi Frames were made in Japan. They were really cool bike several years ago. They even looked like Italian bikes


I actually looked at them before I bought another Colnago. I saw one at a race and thought it was pretty nice. Plus, I liked the name "Four Aces". Ultimately, I decided to go with another Colnago because of the short length of time that Quattro Assi had been around. I want a company with some skin in the game. Meaning that if their frame has a manufacturing/design defect that results in me being seriously hurt or injured, there is something to go after. The problem with start up companies is that there usually isn't anything for them to lose by putting out an inferior product and/or not doing the R&D and quality control.


----------



## MERAKMAN

fabsroman said:


> I actually looked at them before I bought another Colnago. I saw one at a race and thought it was pretty nice. Plus, I liked the name "Four Aces". Ultimately, I decided to go with another Colnago because of the short length of time that Quattro Assi had been around. I want a company with some skin in the game. Meaning that if their frame has a manufacturing/design defect that results in me being seriously hurt or injured, there is something to go after. The problem with start up companies is that there usually isn't anything for them to lose by putting out an inferior product and/or not doing the R&D and quality control.


Sorry nothing to loose? It would take some money to set up a new bike company plus market it. They have got plenty to loose, their livelyhood for starters, plus a lawsuit from someone who did have an accident on their bikes, God forbid.Obviously they are not going to have the money for R and D like Colnago etc but in time they might, given a chance.


----------



## fabsroman

MERAKMAN said:


> Sorry nothing to loose? It would take some money to set up a new bike company plus market it. They have got plenty to loose, their livelyhood for starters, plus a lawsuit from someone who did have an accident on their bikes, God forbid.Obviously they are not going to have the money for R and D like Colnago etc but in time they might, given a chance.


I do this stuff for a living. Trust me, they would not have much to lose if they manufactured a crap product as a start up company. Yeah, they would lose their livelihood, but how much would they have really lost if they are a start up company? Yes, they would lose the capital that they contributed into the business, but how much would that be? Would there be enough capital and liability insurance to cover a judgment for several millions of dollars should the frame crack in half and I die? I'm willing to be that my earning potential for the remainder of my life is pretty high. What would prevent them from folding up shop at that point, declaring bankruptcy or whatever protection they have wherever they are, and being done with the judgment. They wouldn't be personally liable because I am assuming that they would be insulated by a corporation of LLC. So, who would really be on the short end of the stick. If you want to read about something like this, look at the defective drywall from China. Most of the subcontractors and general contractors that installed that stuff are bankrupt. Trying to recover from a manufacturer in China is like trying to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow or like trying to win the lottery. Read up on that and tell me who got screwed on that one. I'll give you a hint, it was the consumers and there was no personal injury or death involved.

Now, compare that to Colnago. Do you think that Colnago, a well established company, would have enough capital, income, liability insurance, etc. to cover a a judgment obtained against it for personal injury caused by a manufacturing/design defect. They would be a lot less hesitant to just close up shop to try and avoid the judgment, and even if they did try to close up shop to avoid the judgment the company would either be sold or liquidated. There is a much higher probablity of recovering against Colnago than against Quattro Assi, or recovering against any other well established company versus recovering against any other startup company for that matter.


----------



## Fai Mao

Quatto Assi has been around for 30 or 40 years. They are not a new company. But obviously not Colnago or Cinelli. They were always a little weird for me because I didn't like the Italian name on a Japanese frame, it just didn't look right to me. 

However, the point was simply to reply to the poster who claimed that everything from Asia was crap. It isn't. Lots of production bikes are made in Asia and many of them are very nice indeed. There used be a couple of custom builders in Japan, their names escape me right now who were very highly respected. Calling everything crap because it made in a particular part of the Earth is like judging all US bikes by Huffy and saying a Trek or Cannondale is crap. The Toyo frame factory in Japan makes good frames as does LSL Titanium in China and China Bike (Giant) in Shenzhen makes a whole range of bikes at different price points and quality levels.


----------



## real schwinns only

The best frames, wheels and components are made in china. Get used to it???.pooh pooh bloody poppycock total bloody rubbish Iyeoh said Yeah... Sure... Plasticized disposable highly pho-ed crap. Indeed, the best. Quite right Iyeoh!!!!!!!. When will they bloody get it man, China is the place for all you'r Faux bicycle needs I.e. overpriced disposable carbon fibber/plastic bicycle rubbish. The dustman cometh.The Chinese haven’t quite got the bikes right but they do make an excellent take off.The Kung po is quite excellent and swift half to finish a near perfect meal.you can't top the Chinese's Culinary skill. quite superb. quote from sir Winston Churchill "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on." also from sir Winston " Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."


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## real schwinns only

Check the recall list from Consumer Product Safety Commission: the cpsc and others has a massive amount of Chinese carbon fibber bicycle rubbish being recalled also see broken carbon's site for more bicycle mayhem.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> Next thing you know I'll be a racist because I prefer Ford over Asian made cars or cars made by Asian majority owned companies.
> 
> I avoid Shell gas stations because they are supposedly owned by Venezuela, and I don't like Chavez's policies, but that is probably racist of me too.


Fabulous Roman Dude,

CITGO is owned by Hugi Chavez. Royal Dutch Shell (I believe its 45% British owned as well) is a Netherlands company that is the second largest oil company in the world, and has the highest proven petroleum reserves, and Chavez has no hope whatsoever of such ownership.

Now, I admire your taste in bicycles, but I must re-align your tastes in automobiles  You do know that the people of your ancestry make fine automobiles too, correct? As per standard operating procedure, mine are all European lol


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## iyeoh

Hey.. San Rensho made great frames as well. Same with Tange Champion (I had a 17 pound Dura Ace equipped steel bike when I was 16 that crumpled like origami paper). And Yamaguchi out in Colorado. They are not Ernesto Colnago. They are not Ugo De Rosa. Not Faliero Masi. Not Cino Cinelli. I'll stop there.

I made my comment in reference to the general average quality of Asian products. The market is flooded with Tiagra and RX300 equipped whatever brands. I can't walk into an average store in America and find Colnago. I sure can find lots of Treks and Taiwanese Bianchis and whatever... Naturally, select few products are positioned for the high end of the market and are of good quality. Like Dura Ace DI2, which costs more than the equivalent European product (so forget the cost leadership argument). However, I'm making my own decision not to purchase those.

I never said *everything* from Asia is crap. My televisions at home come from Asia, and so is every computer component I own. I believe my cell phone was also made in Asia. However, I have made the choice not to buy Asian made bikes. Is it such a sin?


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## real schwinns only

As has been said before the Chinese haven't quite got the bicycle lot quite bloody right yet. no R&D or low R&D. just look at the catastrophic bloody Chinese made bicycle carnage. iyeoh wants a reliable bicycle and parts. Quite understandable, nobody wants to have bikes and parts ending up in the Dustbin or worse yet ending up in hospital because of bicycle rubbish . Chinese bicycles? quality parts ? pooh pooh .they must be crackers or going completely soft, I wont spend my hard earned earnings on rubbish made in china with some bicycle euro trash rubbish name thats lives on its storied past and have outsourced there bloody soul.!!!!! in the name of a dollar. quality anyone bloody heard of it? ........A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on. 
Sir Winston Churchill


----------



## toonraid

B15serv said:


> Ill just say this...... if you bought a BMW made in the USA would it be any less a german automobile? I just got the 3T ergonova LTD bars with a 3T stem and post as well. Theyre great.


A few years ago Merc ML SUV's were only made in states and had huge technical/reliability issues compared to the rest of the range to the extent that you wouldn't see many of them on European roads - well not compared to the X5!


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## iyeoh

toonraid said:


> A few years ago Merc ML SUV's were only made in states and had huge technical/reliability issues compared to the rest of the range to the extent that you wouldn't see many of them on European roads - well not compared to the X5!


Dittos the Z3 and Z4, dude. And they hired Bangle in Munich and the 7-Series sales dropped like a brick. It goes both ways.

On the other hand, Ford was just beginning to get the Jaguar reliability issues under control.


----------



## fabsroman

iyeoh said:


> Dittos the Z3 and Z4, dude. And they hired Bangle in Munich and the 7-Series sales dropped like a brick. It goes both ways.
> 
> On the other hand, Ford was just beginning to get the Jaguar reliability issues under control.


According to Consumer Reports, the Ford Fusion beats Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in reliability, and my Taurus is 12 years old with 208,000 miles on it and very few problems. I really think Ford is catching up to the Japanese manufacturers as far as quality is concerned. Good thing since I am a Ford fan.


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## Fai Mao

Some good news on this front, or at possibly. I just purchased some Vittoria tubulars and looking at their web site, they appear to be made in Italy again rather than Thailand. Therefore, it may be possible to buy an Italian tire for your Italian bike
http://www.vittoria.com


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## John BBB

Try Veloflex. Definitely made in Italy. Better quality clinchers and tubulars than over-hyped Vittorias.


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## Clevor

Fai Mao said:


> Some good news on this front, or at possibly. I just purchased some Vittoria tubulars and looking at their web site, they appear to be made in Italy again rather than Thailand. Therefore, it may be possible to buy an Italian tire for your Italian bike
> http://www.vittoria.com


I don't see anything on their web site to indicate this. Vittoria tubulars used to be made in Italy around 2-3 years ago but not sure now.

The best way to check is look on either the box or the tire sidewall itself, the latter being the best indication. I just bought some Conti 4000S tires and dang, they are made in Germany. Hutchinson tires are made in France, not sure now. Michelin Pro Race 2s were made in France but I hear the Pro Race 3s are made in the Far East.


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## Fai Mao

Actually, when I looked on the tire, it says made in Thailand. O well.


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## toonraid

No worries - saddle, shoes, bar tape, bibs & jerseys could still be found.


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## real schwinns only

One can't be too careful. some tire manufacturers are bloody evasive when questioned about the quality of there tires made in other country's so do make sure to do what clevor Recommended check the side wall carefully for origin And also for thread per inch . This does quite matter .!!!!!!! "quote" A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on." Sir Winston Churchill "


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## blr33439

Before you can know for sure where something is made, you need to understand the country rules. Most countries have loose requirements, such as final assembly, paint, percentage of the value. Picture this, stem made in the East for a wholesale price of $35. Stem is shipped to country A where it is painted. Company in country A establishes new wholesale price of $100 and MSRP of $180. Since they added greater than 50% value, by the legal standards in many countries, they can put a made in country A sticker on the product. So, is it made in country A. Probably not, but they don't have any requirement to disclose that information to you. Personally, I believe in full disclosure on that kind of information. Maybe someday they will do like cars and put percentage stickers on products. Some of the best products come from China and Taiwan, but everyone loves that made in Italy, Spain, France, Germany, etc sticker. Don't believe the sticker.


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## toonraid

Actually some european frame manufacturers have been having problems with the quality/longivity of finish since new european regulations were introduced several years ago on type of paint that could be used in the manufacturing process due to european environment regulations while their asian counterparts have been able to use whatever they wanted - result being that in some cases Asian frames had a better quality than european finished frames - I know of atleast 2 manufacturers (De Rosa & Scapin) that had such problems but i think both have managed to sort it out now.

Anyway pretty much everything is made and even assembled in Asia now - why do you most of those low to medium priced high end brand bikes are shipped with Shimano & Sram groupsets? Its not just the cost of Veloce vs 105 or Rival but also the cost of assembly in europe (or shipping Campagnolo from Italy to Taiwan/China).


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## fxx

iyeoh said:


> Its really very simple. For upper society Chinese in China, Europe and America, products that are made in China and/or Taiwan are considered undesirable because of a perception of low quality, in additional to a social stigma, whether justified or not. The ethnic Chinese people that I know overwhelmingly try as hard as possible to avoid products made over there.


Interesting, yes I agree you are not a racist for not choosing Asian made products but like what Chris Tucker said in the movie " You're Asian, stop humiliating yourself".

Do you really think that China would forever be making inferior products? If you look back at the short time frame of just a decade ago, China has actually grown leaps and bounds, they still have a long way to go, but give them some time and they will go places.

I wish you had not admitted that you were Asian, it just makes it more painful reading your posts.


----------



## iyeoh

fxx said:


> Interesting, yes I agree you are not a racist for not choosing Asian made products but like what Chris Tucker said in the movie " You're Asian, stop humiliating yourself".
> 
> Do you really think that China would forever be making inferior products? If you look back at the short time frame of just a decade ago, China has actually grown leaps and bounds, they still have a long way to go, but give them some time and they will go places.
> 
> I wish you had not admitted that you were Asian, it just makes it more painful reading your posts.


I'm also American. I treasure my freedom of choice, and my hard earned money goes to whichever organization I deem to have the best quality products at prices that I can afford. To the extent that I cannot afford a certain item or brand, I just set my sights lower. However, I simply buy what I like to buy because I want to buy the product, and not because I have to conform to whatever and whomever. 

For example, Japan makes fine cars. They are all good, I'm sure of it. Just that I don't like most of them, or I simply choose to buy alternatives. Same reason why I used Dura Ace once in my youth: it was given to me and I could not afford anything else equivalent. Once I had money, I bought what I wanted. Another illustration. Are Fulcrum wheels good? Damn straight. Would I buy them? NFW. That's all.

Sorry that you are offended about my comments about Chinese products. For now, they still generally do not exude high quality. At least, that's my opinion. I'm not shoving my opinion down anyone else's throat.

I'm not admitting to anything. I'm merely stating a fact. Sorry that you are hurt that I'm dissing Chinese-made products while being ethnic Chinese. However, I'm not known to ever be politically correct.


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## toonraid

I agree that the high society in Asia use western made products as a symbol of wealth &/or success and surprised that it comes as a shock to some - its the same in the west and all over the world .......... which is why Gucci/Prada bags will never be made in Asia unless those brands decline an decide to mass market - it has nothing to do with quality of workmanship just status and price (the higher the better).


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## fxx

Let's all be friends, sure old perceptions die hard, but in a short span of 15 years, (me being a bike snob then) many things have changed, and going forward, products will be made all over the world, regardless of history or tradition or culture, afterall if we all really profess to be one race ie. the human race, why be so hung up on where your next favourite product is going to come from, we are one world, one people right?

Sure today we may balk at a Ferrari being made in China but who knows what is the future? or what is the difference if the Ferrari is still made in Italy but put together by Chinese, or labour from another country, would it still be a Ferrari to you?

That is why this thread smacks of racism however one puts or justifies it, thinly veiled by the idea of traditions.


----------



## fxx

toonraid said:


> I agree that the high society in Asia use western made products as a symbol of wealth &/or success and surprised that it comes as a shock to some - its the same in the west and all over the world .......... which is why Gucci/Prada bags will never be made in Asia unless those brands decline an decide to mass market - it has nothing to do with quality of workmanship just status and price (the higher the better).


There is much talk of such luxury products actually made from materials coming from Asia and heaven forbid! stitched and sewn by Asian hands in Italy, France etc


----------



## fabsroman

fxx said:


> Let's all be friends, sure old perceptions die hard, but in a short span of 15 years, (me being a bike snob then) many things have changed, and going forward, products will be made all over the world, regardless of history or tradition or culture, afterall if we all really profess to be one race ie. the human race, why be so hung up on where your next favourite product is going to come from, we are one world, one people right?
> 
> Sure today we may balk at a Ferrari being made in China but who knows what is the future? or what is the difference if the Ferrari is still made in Italy but put together by Chinese, or labour from another country, would it still be a Ferrari to you?
> 
> That is why this thread smacks of racism however one puts or justifies it, thinly veiled by the idea of traditions.


Do you just hate Americans that much? Are you a racist yourself that is anti-American?

Here we go again. "This thread smacks of racism." Here we have you, calling an American of Chinese descent, a racist for not wanting to buy a bike made in China.

It would be like you calling me a racists, because I do not want to buy a TV made in Italy, me being an American of Italian descent.

When you think of an espresso or cappucino, what country do you think of? When you think of sushi, what country do you think of? When you think of fine watches, what country do you think of? When you think of Ferrari/Colnago, what country do you think of?

When you think of children's toys painted with lead paint, what country do you think of? When you think of drywall that emits a sulphurous odor and decays piping and other things in a house, what country do you think of?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/LA15Cb01.html

Children's toys with an elevated level of cadmium.

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/01271/chinese-defective-products-suicide.html

Children's toys with lead paint. Defective pet food, toothpaste, seafood, pharmaceuticals, vitamins and food additives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_pet_food_recalls

Defective pet food that caused renal failure in pets.

The *2007 pet food recalls* comprise the contamination and wide recall of many brands of cat and dog foods beginning in March 2007 and the ensuing developments involving the human food supply. The recalls in North America, Europe, and South Africa came in response to reports of renal failure in pets. Initially the recalls were associated with the consumption of mostly wet pet foods made with wheat gluten from a single *Chinese* company. After more than three weeks of complaints from consumers, the recall began voluntarily with the Canadian company Menu Foods on 16 March 2007, when a company test showed sickness and death in some of the test animals. Soon after, there were numerous media reports of animal deaths as a result of kidney failure. In the following weeks, several other companies who received the contaminated wheat gluten also voluntarily recalled dozens of pet food brands. One month after the initial recall, *contaminated rice protein from a different source in China was also identified as being associated with kidney failure in pets* in the United States, while contaminated corn gluten was associated with kidney failure with pets in South Africa. *As a result of investigating the 2007 pet food recalls a broader **Chinese protein export contamination** investigation unfolded, raising concerns about the safety of the human food supply*.

http://www.totalinjury.com/news/articles/consumer-awareness/china-product-recalls.aspx


> _Children have died, adults have died, pets have died and many people have become sick or injured due to unsafe products that were manufactured in China._


http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-18/us/chinese.drywall_1_chinese-made-drywall-homeowners-appliances?_s=PM:US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Chinese_drywall_controversy

Defective drywall from China. The real kicker on this one is that once these people report the problem to their homeowner's insurance or their homeowner's insurance finds out about it, they get dropped and no other homeowner's insurance will pick them up. Even worse is that homeowner's insurance does not cover this expense because it is a building defect and not a catastrophic event. Without homeowner's insurance on the home, the homeowner is in breach of the mortgage because the mortgage requires that homeowner's insurance be in place on the home, and because of this breach the mortgage company can foreclose on the mortgage.

Yeah, call me a racist for not wanting to be the first one to find out that a bike manufactured in China is defective while I am descending at 60+ mph.

Of course, then there is the nostalgic effect of having a Ferrari, Colnago, or Beretta/Benelli that has been made in Italy. All four of these Italian companies have a history that is longer than China has been involved in mass producing stuff. Some Berettas (i.e., the pistols for US military and law enforcement) are made right here in the US about an hour drive from me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta



> Beretta has been owned by the same family for some five hundred years. The Beretta company was established in 1526,<SUP id=cite_ref-0 class=reference>[1]</SUP> when gunsmith Maestro Bartolomeo Beretta<SUP id=cite_ref-1 class=reference>[2]</SUP> of Gardone Val Trompia (Brescia, Lombardy, Italy) was paid 296 ducats in payment for 185 arquebus barrels by the Arsenal of Venice.<SUP id=cite_ref-2 class=reference>[3]</SUP> The bills of sale for the order of those firearms are in the firm's archives.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari

*



Ferrari S.p.A. is an Italian sports car manufacturer based in Maranello, Italy. Founded by Enzo Ferrari in 1929, as Scuderia Ferrari, the company sponsored drivers and manufactured race cars before moving into production of street-legal vehicles as Ferrari S.p.A. in 1947.

Click to expand...

* 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colnago

*



Colnago is a manufacturer of road-racing bicycles founded by Ernesto Colnago in 1954 near Milano in Cambiago, Italy

Click to expand...

* 
Alright, so Benelli has only been in business 40 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_(firearms)

*



Benelli Armi SpA is an Italian firearm manufacturer founded in 1967, located in Urbino, Italy, most well known for high quality shotguns used by military, law enforcement and civilians all over the world. Particularly famous is the Benelli M3 12 gauge, used extensively by American SWAT teams. Benelli recently introduced the Benelli M4 Super 90, an unusual gas operated semi-automatic shotgun intended for military use in urban warfare. Benelli and Benelli USA have been owned by Pietro Beretta since 2000

Click to expand...

*


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## toonraid

Funny thing is that in the engineering world neither USA nor Italy are thought of as high quality - that accolade belongs to Germans & Swiss.


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## fxx

fabsroman said:


> Do you just hate Americans that much? Are you a racist yourself that is anti-American?
> 
> Here we go again. "This thread smacks of racism." Here we have you, calling an American of Chinese descent, a racist for not wanting to buy a bike made in China.


Nope he is not racist, I just merely highlighted that he had poor self-esteem of being a Chinese. Here in Singapore, we are mainly Chinese and are more open minded with regards to China, Taiwan made products, many are enlightened to enough to pay top dollar and ride Colnagos, Pinarellos, Litespeeds, Wiliers, etc knowing very well they are made in China, Taiwan, don't get me wrong we don't just buy Chinese, Taiwanese products just because we are in Asia, there is also strong resentment from many Singaporeans here with regards to poorly made China or Taiwanese products too. Yep many actually poo poo China products but rightly so if they are of poor quality.

So there is no argument that China is *not there yet* but it has come a long way. As I said, I too was a bike snob, in 1991, I was offered to buy a Giant Cadex 980, I snubbed it, just because it was "Made in Taiwan", and chose a French Look CF bike instead, a KG156 to be exact. That bike rode like mush, the chain rub was terrible, it felt like riding on underinflated tires all the time *but it was French*, never in my wildest dreams then, would I magine that in 2010, Giant would be the world's largest mfr of Carbon fibre bikes, even manufacturing for the top European brand and being raced in the TDF.

Granted China may not be anywere near the top on quality if left on their own, but if their products are mfred under well known European, US, Japanese or Taiwanese company, China made can sure as hell can give the top brands a run for the money.

BTW I ride an Italian made Cinelli XCr frame, but I don't give a hoot to where the other components are made, I am quite sure the Cinelli Neo stem is made in Taiwan, the Selle SMP carbon seat says Made in Italy (but the materials could all come from Asia). The KCNC seatpost is Taiwanese but light as hell, the Shimano Ultegra groupset could darn well be made in Taiwan, but is super smooth and accurate in shfiting. The Look pedals say "Body made in France (Tunisia)" so ride what is best for me, not where it is made, in 1991 the minimum I would go for is Made in Japan, no Taiwanese made but the world is fast changing.

Open your mind. I know it is hard. I still would not drive a Korean car due to country bias, but I own a Samsung mobile phone and Samsung LED TV.


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## iyeoh

fxx said:


> Nope he is not racist, I just merely highlighted that he had poor self-esteem of being a Chinese. Here in Singapore, we are mainly Chinese and are more open minded with regards to China, Taiwan made products, many are enlightened to enough to pay top dollar and ride Colnagos, Pinarellos, Litespeeds, Wiliers, etc knowing very well they are made in China, Taiwan, don't get me wrong we don't just buy Chinese, Taiwanese products just because we are in Asia, there is also strong resentment from many Singaporeans here with regards to poorly made China or Taiwanese products too. Yep many actually poo poo China products but rightly so if they are of poor quality.


So, now I have poor self-esteem, huh? The hilarious part is that I was from Singapore myself. My circle of buddies were from Singapore and are now Brits, Aussies, Canadians and Americans have a uniform view: Made in China sucks. I'm not going any further.

The funny thing is that you seem to like Colnagos and Ferraris. You chose the nickname FXX yourself. I like Ferraris myself, in addition to other German brands. In a couple of years, China will eventually produce a sports car. I would like to see you buy one of those.

Not that it matters, but I own a Samsung 3D LED myself, and my iCrap 4 was definitely made by Foxconn in Guangzhou by sweatshop labour.


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## iyeoh

toonraid said:


> Funny thing is that in the engineering world neither USA nor Italy are thought of as high quality - that accolade belongs to Germans & Swiss.


Good Lord! The F22 and B2 must really suck! The last time the Germans built a space shuttle that worked was.... <when?>

Listen, I'm not going to argue that German and Swiss engineering are first class. I have a household full of their stuff. And I'm also not going to argue that America produces a boatload of pure junk, which I won't list because I seem to have this ability to offend everyone... but gimme a break about American engineering.


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## blr33439

Ok, it seems we have established that China has built some junk and lets not forget that so can the U.S. I'm sure we will never forget the exploding Pintos(Ford), or other high quality U.S. junk. Every industrialized country can build junk, and they can also build high quality. In the end it comes down to the manufacturer and their materials and processes. Machined parts, China has the major advantage of more equipment and cheaper labor. They can make a part equivalent to or better than a U.S. part for less than half the price. Ok, how about carbon fiber. Mold prices in China are about a tenth of the cost of molds made in the U.S. Same kind of equipment and materials, but a totally different cost scale. What about the carbon fiber. There is high quality and then there is aerospace. How many of you actually know the difference? If you do, than you realize that it is inconsequential for bicycles. It is important for NASA when every gram counts, but bikes are artificially limited at 14.99 lbs. If you consider safety factors when designing a bike frame, the weight savings from aerospace carbon is ridiculously small. China will have access to aerospace carbon from Japan in the next year, but they don't really need it except for marketing. If anyone really wants to get into carbon cloth specs and what they mean, start a new thread and we can talk all about materials and benefits.


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## fxx

iyeoh said:


> So, now I have poor self-esteem, huh? The hilarious part is that I was from Singapore myself. My circle of buddies were from Singapore and are now Brits, Aussies, Canadians and Americans have a uniform view: Made in China sucks. I'm not going any further.
> 
> The funny thing is that you seem to like Colnagos and Ferraris. You chose the nickname FXX yourself. I like Ferraris myself, in addition to other German brands. In a couple of years, China will eventually produce a sports car. I would like to see you buy one of those.
> 
> Not that it matters, but I own a Samsung 3D LED myself, and my iCrap 4 was definitely made by Foxconn in Guangzhou by sweatshop labour.


OK, but I just feel that sweeping statements like all things MIC sucks is a little extreme. I only call MIC junk, when it is junk, I do actually come across some gems MIC from time to time and believe it or not, that list is actually growing, albeit very, very slowly.

I do like Italian made, and that includes bicycles, hence my Cinelli XCr, because I am very sure that they were welded with true italian craftsmanship, but I think that if tradition was so important to me concerning bike frames and parts, then one should never ride a CF bike (I don't) and stick to steel, because once you ride a CF bike, that is years of tradition thrown out the door, Italians are known for their great artesan skills and craftsmanship *working with steel*, when I saw the video on how the Colnago CF EPS frames were built, all I saw was someone cut and mitre some tubes, another guy applying the glue to the lugs and frames on a jig, mind you and then just pushing it to an oven to bake, I mean where is the difference if it was done in China or Italy? Moving on to painting, unlike the old days where the painting was done by a master craftsman, the computer and computer aided cutter does all that, one just applies the computer cut templates and spray. Voila! a 100% Italian made bike.........that could be easily made anywhere else in the world.

I don't understand how a Cinelli Ram CF stem made in Italy would be better than the one made in China, if all the materials used were the same.


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## blr33439

I saw the video for the Colnago EPS also. My question involves the carbon fiber tubes and lugs. Do they have a video of those parts being made in Italy, or do they get them from Asia and just assemble them in Italy.


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## fxx

blr33439 said:


> I saw the video for the Colnago EPS also. My question involves the carbon fiber tubes and lugs. Do they have a video of those parts being made in Italy, or do they get them from Asia and just assemble them in Italy.


Shh, I did not even want to bring that up, lest some ppl get real upset. Even if the tubes were from Italy what about the pre-pegs and the resin? 

Also I remember reading somewhere that Colnago get their steel tubes from an Italian supplier, but there is no mention whether the Italian supplier gets his tubes from Italy or not.


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## chuckice

fxx said:


> Shh, I did not even want to bring that up, lest some ppl get real upset. Even if the tubes were from Italy what about the pre-pegs and the resin?
> 
> Also I remember reading somewhere that Colnago get their steel tubes from an Italian supplier, but there is no mention whether the Italian supplier gets his tubes from Italy or not.


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=226520


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## iyeoh

It's no mystery at all. The carbon is Japanese. The fabrication of the high end tubes is done in Japan. The lower end tubes seem fabricated in China. The lugs are a mystery. Rumor is that they come from Taiwan. The steel is entirely Italian, as per Alex Colnago, but the Milanese supplier's name is a mystery.


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## blr33439

That solves the carbon question on colnago. What about trek? anybody got a video of their production? I would be curious to find out how much of the 6 series is actually made in the U.S. and how much is made in other places. Finally separate marketing and reality.


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## fxx

iyeoh said:


> It's no mystery at all. The carbon is Japanese. The fabrication of the high end tubes is done in Japan. The lower end tubes seem fabricated in China. The lugs are a mystery. Rumor is that they come from Taiwan. The steel is entirely Italian, as per Alex Colnago, but the Milanese supplier's name is a mystery.


The carbon fibre sheets are from Toray Japan, same as what Pinarello uses, but knowing the Japanese, they could very well be mfred and woven in China.

So we have come one full circle, I don't know why nobody saw this, after 2 years of postings and arguments.

Pure 100% Made in Italy components and frames is as good as non-existant, OP has to change with the times and accept this.

Tradition? Well Italy may hold the tradition for the finest hand crafted steel bikes in the world, but in today's new world order, if you want to ride factory made CF and CF components, Asia is the largest producer and that would become tradition over time, maybe in 10 years when all the CF production shifts to Africa, ppl would be lamenting that they want an Asian made CF parts or frames. 

That is why I said this thread smacks of racism, take away the almost non-existent justification of buying "Made in Italy" using tradition as an excuse, in reality, Italian CF bicycle mfring tradition is practically zilch, so what tradition is there? and what other reason is there to justify the bias of not wanting Asian made?


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## iyeoh

blr33439 said:


> That solves the carbon question on colnago. What about trek? anybody got a video of their production? I would be curious to find out how much of the 6 series is actually made in the U.S. and how much is made in other places. Finally separate marketing and reality.


If I'm not mistaken, Trek is almost entirely Taiwanese, and that includes Bontrager components.


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## iyeoh

There is no racism in this thread. We buy what we want to buy. That's all. Fabsroman is a good guy. He just wants an Italian bike. And so do I, and a couple others as well.

I much rather ride old bikes than the new Taiwanese carbon stuff anyway. I would swear that old handbuilt steel frames still ride better,


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## toonraid

iyeoh said:


> Good Lord! The F22 and B2 must really suck! The last time the Germans built a space shuttle that worked was.... <when?>
> 
> Listen, I'm not going to argue that German and Swiss engineering are first class. I have a household full of their stuff. And I'm also not going to argue that America produces a boatload of pure junk, which I won't list because I seem to have this ability to offend everyone... but gimme a break about American engineering.


Quoted out of context - I wasn't having a dig at American engineering but merely pointing out that "Made in USA" to europeans is a little like "Made in China" to Americans and seeing the funny side of the ongoing discussion.

Sure there are lots of fields in engineering that USA is world leader such as Aerospace but then its a little like Track in cycling, success = resources, see british & australian teams and their budget vs rest of the world - now do that for NASA budget vs rest of the world's space program.

In defence of Amercian products and Auto industry in particular in General Asia is very receptive to American products and in some cases they even prefer it to european products - I was in Dubai a while back and surprised that most cars were Amercian or Japanese and the Taxi driver told me that European cars have a problem with air conditioning in their high temp/humidity but they loved their Toyota's - Fuel costs are on par with USA and therefore cheaper than Europe and their roads are flat as a pancake with hardly any corners which happens to be the terrain American cars are designed for where as European cars are made for expensive fuel, colder climates with lots of sharp hills and turns so fuel consumption & handling round a wet corner is very much top of their performance criteria. So its fair to say that it is not always fair to compare products that seem to be similar as each may have been produced for a different target market.


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## Sablotny

*yeah, what he said*



Daddy yo yo said:


> well, "made in ..." only says that a certain amount of the added value was added in that very country. it doesn't mean that it's 100% made there. if a manufacturer says that his products are made in italy, only a certain part of the value has to be added added in italy. parts can still come from all around the world...


I know where you're coming from, but... I wouldn't be shocked if somebody told me that the carbon tubes and lugs of the "Italian" Colnagos arrive from elsewhere, and are merely mitered, bonded, and painted at the shop. That could easily justify enough "value" to call them Made in Italy. 

This used to bother me a bunch too, but I'm slowly getting over it. One day the Taiwanese and Chinese shops that make some of the finest carbon frames and parts in the world will get the recognition they deserve... but by then their parts will probably be made in India or Africa.


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## fxx

iyeoh said:


> There is no racism in this thread. We buy what we want to buy. That's all. Fabsroman is a good guy. He just wants an Italian bike. And so do I, and a couple others as well.
> 
> I much rather ride old bikes than the new Taiwanese carbon stuff anyway. I would swear that old handbuilt steel frames still ride better,


Sure, it is the same with me, I only accept Made in Asia for the carbon components, I swear by my Columbus tubed Cinelli XCr.


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## nicensleazy

I recently ordered the 3T LTD bars. When they arrived, the finish was crap. I didn't buy them in the end, the dealer sent them back! Very poor indeed!


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## iyeoh

toonraid said:


> Quoted out of context - I wasn't having a dig at American engineering but merely pointing out that "Made in USA" to europeans is a little like "Made in China" to Americans and seeing the funny side of the ongoing discussion.


My views certainly are not representative of America. I like MBs and Porsches. I would never buy an American made MB or BMW. However, I think Corvette has done quite well at Nurburgring, which shows that America can build a world class car if it needs to. Like you said, American cars are designed for American freeway, such that a buzzy Lotus may be fantastic at a British track but miserable on Interstate 101 in Los Angeles. 

Having said that, the Europeans should flatter themselves too much. The entire British auto industry fall on it's face because of quality and union issues. It's bloody embarrassing that a national flagship like Rolls Royce and/or Bentley falls into German hands.

Thanks to Signore Macchione and Monsieur Goshn, two other important auto companies were saved.


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## 1Cebu

nicensleazy said:


> I recently ordered the 3T LTD bars. When they arrived, the finish was crap. I didn't buy them in the end, the dealer sent them back! Very poor indeed!


Not from where I am .................. got 2 3T LTD bars - an ergosum and an ergonova ..... and besides the phenomenal weight (or lack of it  ) ..... both are finished great.


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## Dajianshan

I totally get what the Italians did. I went ahead and married a Taiwanese... and the results are pretty damned impressive. Superior quality.


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## toonraid

What no ride report?


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## fabsroman

Dajianshan said:


> I totally get what the Italians did. I went ahead and married a Taiwanese... and the results are pretty damned impressive. Superior quality.


Have you tried an Italian woman?


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## fabsroman

toonraid said:


> What no ride report?


I think I have given a ride report elsewhere. However, I'll sum it up here. This is the lightest and most comfortable frame I have. My last ride was just short of 60 miles and it wasn't my butt or my hands that were giving out on me, it was my legs. With the Cristallo, I did a couple of 60 mile rides that left my butt and hands hurting. With the C50, that is not the case. As far as flex is concerned, I don't notice any with it, but then I have yet to have ever noticed any in any of my bikes. I still have not gotten descending on it completely right. I still descend faster on my Cristallo and Arte than I do on the C50. I don't know if it is because of the traditional versus sloping geometry or because the Negative G brakes feel different than the Record brakes I have on the Cristallo and Arte. I am debating whether to put Negative G brakes on the Cristallo and Arte, but that will probably have to wait until the spring.

Ultimately, I love the C50 and wish I had a lot more time to ride it.


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## Salsa_Lover

fabsroman said:


> Have you tried an Italian woman?


+ 1 gazillion

Italian women are teh hotness


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## fabsroman

Salsa_Lover said:


> + 1 gazillion
> 
> Italian women are teh hotness


LOL - I am married to one.

I prefer Italian women, bikes, and cars. Still working on the car thing ala Ferrari.


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## Allaboutvous

I thought giant make everyones bikes?


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