# Which Cables?



## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I was reading through the "Cable Breaking in the Shifter" thread, and I was wondering about people's experiences with cables. 

On my 6600 setup, I found Jagwire cables shifted more smoothly than the stock Shimano cables. 

I upgraded to 6800, and it comes with PTFE-coated cables. Do y'all prefer the Shimano PTFE-coated cables, the Jagwire Teflon coated cables (like the Road Pro) (p.s. I'm pretty sure that PTFE and Teflon are either the same substance or pretty darn similar), or do you just figure a cable is a cable? 

Thanks!


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

PTFE is teflon. And the Shimano cables you have are not teflon, they're polymer coated.

I prefer the polymer ones. The Dura-Ace version have more polymer strands than the Ultegra ones and that's what I run. They're pretty expensive. They're not for people that have issues setting up their bike right the first time. Once the polymer starts unwinding and shredding it becomes a pain and an eyesore.

For most people's bikes I work on I use teflon cables. That's the black coating. 

What I never hear mention of though is Shimano's SP-41 special grease. I know their newer housings have a little in them but most people are not running that setup and would benefit greatly from the stuff.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

MMsRepBike said:


> What I never hear mention of though is Shimano's SP-41 special grease. I know their newer housings have a little in them but most people are not running that setup and would benefit greatly from the stuff.


Hard to imagine what Shimano grease would have to offer over any other quality grease.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> Hard to imagine what Shimano grease would have to offer over any other quality grease.


Low viscosity without runout is the intent. As best I can determine, it's a low viscosity silicone grease.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

SP41 is the 'slipperiest' grease I've ever seen. It really is different than anything else out there, although I rarely use it for cables/housing. Comes in handy for lots of other stuff.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> SP41 is the 'slipperiest' grease I've ever seen. It really is different than anything else out there, although I rarely use it for cables/housing. Comes in handy for lots of other stuff.


I use it a lot as well for almost everything really including cables/housing. It does everything I need, no complains at all.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> Hard to imagine what Shimano grease would have to offer over any other quality grease.


Maybe you should try it.
And while you're at it I suggest you try their Dura-Ace grease as well.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I purchased a container of the Shimano SP-41 'special grease'. Based on the price I'm thinkin its got some gold flakes in it. What an idea, distill Shimano Special grease, get the gold and become rich. See you suckers in the funny papers.

I've always been a Rock-n-Rol Cable Magic liquid carrier impregnated with Teflon kinda guy. The stuff is slick.

I bought the Shimano grease to lube up the little 'noodle' cable router that bends the shift cable through that 90deg before it wraps on the barrel. 

So MMSRepBike, you're suggesting its good to slather some Shimano special grease on the cables as well?
That Dura Ace grease looks like something from the X-Files. 

CXWRENCH, you have always promoted 'dry' cables, and you know your stuff...............but lubing my cables is like my warm 'blanky' I've had since the beginning of cycling. Without it I don't think I could face that cold cruel world.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Thank you for the information about the grease, but back to my original question. 

What are your preferred cables? Shimano Polymer-coated, Jagwire Teflon-coated, or something else? 

Thank you.


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## Manning (Jul 8, 2010)

After putting DA 9000 on a couple bikes, that's all I'll use from now on. Amazingly low friction.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

I've been running Jagwire's sealed cable kit. Polymer cables with lubed liner end to end. Smoothness hasn't dropped one bit since putting them on. Don't think I'll ever use anything else.
Road Elite Sealed Shift | Jagwire


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

TiCoyote said:


> Thank you for the information about the grease, but back to my original question.
> 
> What are your preferred cables? Shimano Polymer-coated, Jagwire Teflon-coated, or something else?
> 
> Thank you.


When I bought my new bike in 13 I opted to have the original standard Shimano cables swapped out for Dura Ace 9000 which really improved the smoothness of the feel of the levers, so much so that they feel like Ultegra levers, one of my friends who has a Dura Ace group after riding my bike thought they were Dura Ace levers. I'm going on my third season on these cables and yet to see any signs of cable wear inside the levers which is where supposedly the wear occurs the quickest.

The other good cable that I like is the Yokozuma Reaction from all the reports that I've read about them, haven't tried them yet, but when the Dura Ace 9000 gets ready for replacement I'll try those just to see if they feel better and or last longer, if not I'll go back to the Dura Ace 9000's.

I know most people replace their cables every season, but I'm a tightwad but not foolish either, I inspect my cables about 4 times a season and can tell if it's time for a change. I've never had a cable yet fail on me and I've had cables last 5 seasons before I replaced them.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

metoou2 said:


> So MMSRepBike, you're suggesting its good to slather some Shimano special grease on the cables as well?
> That Dura Ace grease looks like something from the X-Files.
> 
> CXWRENCH, you have always promoted 'dry' cables, and you know your stuff...............but lubing my cables is like my warm 'blanky' I've had since the beginning of cycling. Without it I don't think I could face that cold cruel world.


Yes, but probably not the way you've seen it done or had it taught.

What I suggest is putting the grease in a small syringe, a grease syringe or one used to irrigate out wisdom teeth holes. Before running the cable into the housing, squirt a small amount of grease into the housing where the cable will enter. It will coat the whole cable as the cable enters the housing and zero grease is wasted. This is how Shimano recommends it to be done. So you never really grease the cable directly, you just grease the housing and it takes over. If there's a little bit of extra on what comes out of the other side of the housing just wipe it away.

Dura-Ace grease is the only thing our shop and I will use in warmer weather for bearings. And we use a very sparing amount. In the winter or if it's a rain bike we switch to thick waterproof grease (phil) and pack things full. General assembly stuff is done with Park's grease. 

Most people think all grease is about the same. Well it's not. If it's cleaned out and replaced often it might not matter, but that's rarely the case. Usually we only see a bike once every year or two for maintenance, so we like to do it the best we can.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW, Teflon is a polymer, more specifically a fluoropolymer. A polymer coating could be Teflon, polyethylene, polypropylene or dozens of other things. 

Whatever "polymer" was on Gore cables was NG, as it would slough off and gum stuff up after awhile, similar to what the new Shimano cables appear to be doing.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Are the DA's noticeably smoother than Ultegra? Are they more/less resistant to wear?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

looigi said:


> FWIW, Teflon is a polymer, more specifically a fluoropolymer. A polymer coating could be Teflon, polyethylene, polypropylene or dozens of other things.
> 
> Whatever "polymer" was on Gore cables was NG, as it would slough off and gum stuff up after awhile, similar to what the new Shimano cables appear to be doing.


After 2 seasons that hasn't happened YET to my Dura Ace 9000 cables, I'll see what happens if they last the entire 3rd season.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

looigi said:


> FWIW, Teflon is a polymer, more specifically a fluoropolymer. A polymer coating could be Teflon, polyethylene, polypropylene or dozens of other things.
> 
> Whatever "polymer" was on Gore cables was NG, as it would slough off and gum stuff up after awhile, similar to what the new Shimano cables appear to be doing.


That never happened to me. Did you strip the coating at the end before the derailleur pinch bolt like the instructions said?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

I do prefer to run my housing dry. That said, the way @MMsRepBike and Shimano do it is definitely the correct way if you want to lubricate them. Let the cable pull the grease through the housing. 

My go-to cable is and has for years been the SRAM Pit Stop 1.1 mm non-coated derailleur cable. Smooth and cheap. SRAM shifters rarely have the fatigue/fray/break the cable problem, and I just happen to use them. I have never personally had any problems w/ any of my cables fraying or breaking. I repair this issue on a weekly basis as part of my job. I replace my shift cables about every 6mos. And the housing. 

Since the OP was asking about cables, I'd recommend the standard Shimano, SRAM PS, or the Jagwire (not exactly sure of the model name, but they make quality stuff).


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> I do prefer to run my housing dry. That said, the way @MMsRepBike and Shimano do it is definitely the correct way if you want to lubricate them. Let the cable pull the grease through the housing.
> 
> My go-to cable is and has for years been the SRAM Pit Stop 1.1 mm non-coated derailleur cable. Smooth and cheap. SRAM shifters rarely have the fatigue/fray/break the cable problem, and I just happen to use them. I have never personally had any problems w/ any of my cables fraying or breaking. I repair this issue on a weekly basis as part of my job. I replace my shift cables about every 6mos. And the housing.
> 
> Since the OP was asking about cables, I'd recommend the standard Shimano, SRAM PS, or the Jagwire (not exactly sure of the model name, but they make quality stuff).


Have you ever tried die drawn cables?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

TiCoyote, too bad, your Thread done got hi-jacked! 

Just kiddin. Last count I have read thru (8) threads from many diff. sites.

I plan on running the 6800 cables that came with my new shifters. We'll see.

The cables that came up as 'the best' replacements for the 9000 / 6800 cables as I read and read are;
(you know that Dura Ace grease is really a weird green) 
o.k. back on subject

in order of popularity
1) Jagwire Ripcords
2) Yokozuna
3) last gen. Dura Ace 7900 stainless cables with the Sp-41 coating. I find that last one a bit odd, even Shimano admitted the Sp-41 was coming off these cables and gumming up the housings just a few yrs back.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

MMsRepBike, yes that is a new one for me. I have always put a glob between thumb and fore finger and slid it up and down the cable. Looks like a syringe is in my future. 

mfdemicco, o.k. what's this about stripping off the poly coating? I thought the 'new clamping mech.' on the 9000 / 6800 / 9001 / 5800 components was all that was needed to grab these cables. 
I'm pretty confident the higher end cables are all die drawn.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

TiCoyote said:


> Are the DA's noticeably smoother than Ultegra? Are they more/less resistant to wear?


I am of the opinion they are the same product simply packaged in diff. boxes.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

metoou2 said:


> I am of the opinion they are the same product simply packaged in diff. boxes.


The Dura-Ace cables have a greater amount of polymer on the cables. There's more of it and it's wound tighter.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Have you ever tried die drawn cables?


Most if not all of the decent, major name-brand cables out there _are_ die-drawn, both coated and uncoated.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> TiCoyote, too bad, your Thread done got hi-jacked!
> 
> Just kiddin. Last count I have read thru (8) threads from many diff. sites.
> 
> ...


Where did you gleam this information from? I asked this because I went and checked a bunch of road forums and the most popular was the Shimano Dura Ace followed by Yokozuna Reaction, actually those were pretty much tied, with Jagwire Ripcords coming in third. However if I check mountain bike forums then Jagwire and Shimano XTR cables come up pretty much tied with maybe the Jagwire Ripcord leading by a nose.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> MMsRepBike, yes that is a new one for me. I have always put a glob between thumb and fore finger and slid it up and down the cable. Looks like a syringe is in my future.
> 
> mfdemicco, o.k. what's this about stripping off the poly coating? I thought the 'new clamping mech.' on the 9000 / 6800 / 9001 / 5800 components was all that was needed to grab these cables.
> I'm pretty confident the higher end cables are all die drawn.


The stripping of the coating at the clamp was only for GoreTex cables to prevent shredding of the coating as the coating could slip on the inner wire. GoreTex cables aren't made anymore.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Maybe there is confusion between the green fluorescent Shimano grease, and SP41 cable grease. You should never use the green stuff on cables. 
From my experience, you need to be really careful about compatibility of lubricants with certain materials. Some lubricant bases can make certain plastic or polymer materials turn to jelly, or swell, creating a sticky non-lubricating mess. 

I know Rock'N Roll discourages using their cable product on coated cables
"Use it with non-coated cables"
Rock"N"Roll Lubrication - Products - Bicycle Lube - Cable Magic 

So if you use anything on coated Shimano polymer cables, be sure it's SP41 cable grease. 

On cables and grease, in general - I always do it. On motorcycles, it can make a huge difference in clutch lever effort. I use one of these to get lubricant into cables on my Suzuki dualsports. You are limited to lubricants in a spray can, though.
http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08...im_auto_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0D1F14MJY7B29CDY31Q1


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

tlg said:


> I've been running Jagwire's sealed cable kit. Polymer cables with lubed liner end to end. Smoothness hasn't dropped one bit since putting them on. Don't think I'll ever use anything else.
> Road Elite Sealed Shift | Jagwire


I just switched to this set, and I doubt I'll ever go back to any other cable set.
Love'em.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

jlandry said:


> I just switched to this set, and I doubt I'll ever go back to any other cable set.
> Love'em.


I love 'em too, but have no idea how long they'll last. They were pricey too.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> SP41 is the 'slipperiest' grease I've ever seen. It really is different than anything else out there, although I rarely use it for cables/housing. Comes in handy for lots of other stuff.


I wouldn't use it on bearings. Silicone grease is actually not a very good lubricant as compared to other bearing greases. We used to use it in vacuum applications as it has a very low evaporation rate. 

I still have some pure DuPont Teflon lube. I would think that would be the best cable lubricant, as Teflon/PTFE Is supposed to be the slipperiest subsistence known to man.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> I love 'em too, but have no idea how long they'll last. They were pricey too.


I have about 4k miles on mine. I haven't pulled a cable out to see what it looks like. But still operating smooth as new.

One nice thing about them is you can replace the liner and cable and reuse the housings. The liners are around $10 on ebay. I'd imagine the housings would last quite a while as there's nothing to wear.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

tlg said:


> One nice thing about them is you can replace the liner and cable and reuse the housings. The liners are around $10 on ebay. I'd imagine the housings would last quite a while as there's nothing to wear.


Thanks for pointing that out. I agree, it appears to have the best of everything. I like the idea of replacing liners and cables, keeping the housing in place.

Looks like almost no one is carrying the cable/liner/grub seal service parts kit yet. They are shown on page 8 of the Jagwire catalog - JSAC150, etc. 
http://jagwire.com/images/uploads/2014_Jagwire_Catalog_English.pdf


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Z'mer
man I'm glad you posted that up about Rock n Rol. It never occurred to me that it could attack the coating on a 'coated cable'. But it makes sense.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> I wouldn't use it on bearings. Silicone grease is actually not a very good lubricant as compared to other bearing greases. We used to use it in vacuum applications as it has a very low evaporation rate.
> 
> I still have some pure DuPont Teflon lube. I would think that would be the best cable lubricant, as Teflon/PTFE Is supposed to be the slipperiest subsistence known to man.


I don't use it on bearings either. Never said I did.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> The Dura-Ace cables have a greater amount of polymer on the cables. There's more of it and it's wound tighter.


I smell a Thread war comin on...............grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Nah, I like your avatar way too much. You can't be all bad.

From your posts I get that you are a shop mechanic or owner. I was a mech. (20) years back and alot has changed for sure. I do my best to stay up on what's going on as I do my own wrenching.

I own both the 9000 and 6800. Am looking at them right now. 
9000 purchased Jan. 2013 (new, never used)
6800 purchased Jan. 2015 (new, never used)

The 6800 shift cable is .002 inches larger in diam. when compared to the 9000 shift cable. This would indicate that 'more' poly coating exists on the 6800. And this lines up with what Caley Frets was reporting in a Weenie Thread.
Of course the one handicap I have is the fact my 9000 shift cable is from 2013 (it is the original gen. Dura Ace 9000 cable).

"wound tighter", not gettin that part of your post. The actual steel strands of cables are 'wound' (some tighter than others) and some are even die drawn. I just don't think of 'winding' when it comes to a polymer coating. 

Member 'ibericb' will chime in shortly, he's a materials guy. 

When I called Shimano a few weeks back I asked if 6800 and 9000 cables were the same thing just diff. packages.
Just checked my notes and the Tech Rep said the exact same thing, "the 9000 cables have a more tightly wound polymer coating resulting in smoother shifts". Some of those Techs are really sharp and some can only quote the Shimano Party Line.

A more tightly wound polymer coating..................please, some of you Materials Engineers 'splain that one to me. The term 'winding' is indicative of some sort of a 'mechanical' process. The poly coating on a Shimano cable couldn't withstand a mechanical process like that. It can barely get out of the rear der. without shredding all over the place. 

Let the record show I am not stating absolutes, just trying to gain some clarity from you awesome members.


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## Manning (Jul 8, 2010)

The polymer coating on the DA 9000 cables looks like it's wound around the steel cable. Maybe like a slinky (polymer coating) around a fire hose (steel cable). The polymer "thread" appears to be around 0.000000001mm in dia. It's really really small.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I have a question about cables. I'm not a big MTB rider by any means, but I have read glowing reports about Shimano XTR cables that work extremely well for keeping dirt out and for smoothness of operation, some claimed they are better than the Jagwires, so why can't XTR cables be used on road bikes? I know my MTB cables (which I don't know what brand) look to be the same diameter as my road bike cables, so wouldn't the XTR cables work?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

To me they look like tiny polymer doughnuts stacked one on top of the other.

https://biketestreviews.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Shimano3.jpg

Bike Test Reviews | CABLESETS ? Part 4: SHIMANO BC-9000


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I still don't know why stainless steel cables in plastic lined housings are lubed. Does the lube make much difference in cable friction?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

froze, I took a look and there it is. A poly coated XTR cable. Looks promising. 

From a manufacturing stand point there is NO way Shimano has a multitude of specialty production lines making shift cables.

A dedicated production line for each;
9000 / 6800 / 5800 and XTR shift cables. No way.

I can only envision (4) possible cables being produced;
road poly coated shift
MTB poly coated shift
road poly coated brake
MTB poly coated brake

An engineer or marketing specialist asking for more specialization than that would get shot down by the Production, Operations and Plant manager before he / she could finish the sentence.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

TiCoyote said:


> I was reading through the "Cable Breaking in the Shifter" thread, and I was wondering about people's experiences with cables.
> 
> On my 6600 setup, I found Jagwire cables shifted more smoothly than the stock Shimano cables.
> 
> ...


My understanding from multiple sources is that Shimano has reformulated 6800 wire to last longer. What I don't know is how to recognize it.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Manning, that no. you posted up is out in the range of scanning electron microscopes, but I get your point, it is tiny.

But is it a 'slinky' or a 'doughnut'? 

que music for the Homer related posts.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Trek_5200, exactamente!!! I have been quietly harboring that same thought. You have just been nominated to call Shimano Tech. 949.951.5003 Pretty sure they have my ph no. blocked.

Even if Shimano can give us a way to I.D. the packages that have the new cables it will be impossible to get an e-tailer to check it out before shipping. Most all of them are doing nothing more than drop-shipping the stock housed at QBP or Seattle Bike Supply. Same is going to happen at the LBS.

maybe Shimano will purge all 'old gen.' cables from everyone's stock. Holds breath.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> To me they look like tiny polymer doughnuts stacked one on top of the other.
> 
> https://biketestreviews.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Shimano3.jpg
> 
> Bike Test Reviews | CABLESETS ? Part 4: SHIMANO BC-9000


That review seems to be what I too have observed and what I've been saying about those Dura Ace 9000 cables: they make the mostly 105 components I have feel like at least all Ultegra, and one friend of mine thought I had Dura Ace briftors.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> froze, I took a look and there it is. A poly coated XTR cable. Looks promising.
> 
> From a manufacturing stand point there is NO way Shimano has a multitude of specialty production lines making shift cables.
> 
> ...


That's the information that I've been finding out too on the internet is that the XTR cables seem to be more reliable due to the ability to prevent dirt and crud from entering the system that the road cables do not do, and still be as slick as Dura Ace 9000. I got to look into this more. Maybe someone else can chime in on what they think about using them on a road bike.


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## Poonjabby (Dec 31, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> PTFE is teflon. And the Shimano cables you have are not teflon, they're polymer coated.
> 
> I prefer the polymer ones. The Dura-Ace version have more polymer strands than the Ultegra ones and that's what I run. They're pretty expensive. They're not for people that have issues setting up their bike right the first time. Once the polymer starts unwinding and shredding it becomes a pain and an eyesore.
> 
> ...


Ilove the Shimano polymer cables

Poon


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Maybe someone could go drop a seed over at an MTB Forum and direct those guys back over here.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

metoou2 said:


> I smell a Thread war comin on...............grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Nah, I like your avatar way too much. You can't be all bad.
> 
> From your posts I get that you are a shop mechanic or owner. I was a mech. (20) years back and alot has changed for sure. I do my best to stay up on what's going on as I do my own wrenching.


Nah, no war needed. I'm very much like the tech guy you talked to probably. I am a shop mech. but I'm also a certified Shimano tech. with all of the latest training completed. What I tell you comes directly from what I learn from them. They show in their fancy videos (that I'm unable to share with the public) how the polymer cable is wound and how there's more of it and it's more dense on the Dura-Ace cables. So that's just what I reiterate here. Are they lying? I doubt it, they're a pretty stand up company. I am just towing the company line or whatever though and I am just some dude on the internet. So all I'm good for is to regurgitate training material. I'm not saying that I'm not a sharp tech., I think I'm rather good and keen, but in terms of stuff like this, I don't actually care. I do have a microscope at home and I could take the time to verify their claims and all that, I just don't care to.

Edit:
On a non related mater that's now sort of related. When testing the new MTB group that just came out they decided to try out the chain on a road bike.

Well it worked better on the road bike than the dura-ace chain they designed for the 9000 group. So now they're putting out all new chains for the 11-speed systems on road that are really just the MTB chains. They just work better. Not sure about the cables though, hadn't thought to look into that, wonder if they have.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

That's cool, you are definitely getting more exposure to front line info than most us here. 
So if you share the videos some plain clothed dudes with Dura Ace grease under their nails make a knock on your door?

No I don't think Shimano is lying either, that would never make any sense. How could you train a tech to tell some lies, he quits and then starts making YTube videos about how he was manipulated by Shimano.


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## VTBike (Jul 10, 2011)

I've been using the GoreTex Ride on Sealed Professional for years (like 6) and I love them. I still get new sets off ebay even though they aren't made anymore. I've heard that people have issues with them, etc, etc.., but i have never had one. They will last season after season - riding in winter, through rain, with zero maintenance. The only time i replace is if I get a new bike, change stem length or setup (requiring new cable lengths), or when I switched to the Red 22 from Red 20 group. 

Recently, when I built up a new C/X bike, i bought the jagwire sealed road set - and was SO sorely disappointed. They didn't compare in quality in the slightest to the gore. The housing inner cable construction was relatively terrible, as well as the connections between cable lengths. I also found the cables themselves to be pretty ordinary. I had them on my bike for a week, ripped them off, and bought a set of NOS Gore on ebay for $45.. worth their weight in gold.

I found though that its really the gore housing that's the best part of the system. Recently, I had to replace a derailleur and frayed the cable. I replaced it with a kncn teflon derailleur cable, and found shifting to be exactly on par with the gore setup. Going strong now for 5 months through a ton of wet and winter riding, and not one adjustment needed, save the very occasional barrel adjustment (these stretched more than the gore).


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

mfdemicco said:


> I still don't know why stainless steel cables in plastic lined housings are lubed. Does the lube make much difference in cable friction?


Yes, in my experience it does. You have a hard material (steel) rubbing against a soft material (plastic lining). The plastic will wear, so a lubrication that does not hurt plastic can and will help IMHO. Read the reviews for Cable magic here. 
Amazon.com : Rock N Roll Cable Magic Lubricant, 2-Ounce : Bicycle Lubricant : Sports & Outdoors

The problem can be dirt intrusion into the housing by sticking to exposed greasy cable. To lessen this, you can wipe the lubricant off the exposed cable after exercising it to the limits both ways. Or use a product that "drys" after depositing the fine powder lube like teflon.

But in really bad environments with lots of dust and mud, the best choice is fully sealed cable end to end.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Never had any dealings with GORE or any other 'fully sealed' cable sets. 

So does the housing run the entire length of the cable so that no shift or brake cable is ever exposed?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

VTBike said:


> I've been using the GoreTex Ride on Sealed Professional for years (like 6) and I love them. I still get new sets off ebay even though they aren't made anymore. I've heard that people have issues with them, etc, etc.., but i have never had one. They will last season after season - riding in winter, through rain, with zero maintenance. The only time i replace is if I get a new bike, change stem length or setup (requiring new cable lengths), or when I switched to the Red 22 from Red 20 group.
> 
> Recently, when I built up a new C/X bike, i bought the jagwire sealed road set - and was SO sorely disappointed. They didn't compare in quality in the slightest to the gore. The housing inner cable construction was relatively terrible, as well as the connections between cable lengths. I also found the cables themselves to be pretty ordinary. I had them on my bike for a week, ripped them off, and bought a set of NOS Gore on ebay for $45.. worth their weight in gold.
> 
> I found though that its really the gore housing that's the best part of the system. Recently, I had to replace a derailleur and frayed the cable. I replaced it with a kncn teflon derailleur cable, and found shifting to be exactly on par with the gore setup. Going strong now for 5 months through a ton of wet and winter riding, and not one adjustment needed, save the very occasional barrel adjustment (these stretched more than the gore).


What you're missing from this discussion is that whatever 'coating' is on the cable does NOTHING to keep it from fatiguing and then fraying, and eventually breaking. Your shifting may be great for quite a while, but your cables could be really close to fraying and breaking inside the shifter and you'll never know...til it happens. I would NEVER...EVER... leave a shifter cable in use for 'season after season'. I repair lots of bikes that have had cables break in the shifter and strand the rider wherever they are in high gear. You have your own personal experience...I have the experience of repairing broken stuff for 20 years, for thousands of customers. Trust me, one of these days you'll have a cable let go.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> The Dura-Ace cables have a greater amount of polymer on the cables. There's more of it and it's wound tighter.


I have both recently purchased Dura-Ace 9000 and Ultegra 6800 cables here. I took my best magnifying glass and looked close. Here's my conclusion. 

The cables start being the same. They are both SS 19 strand to start, which are then apparently radially forged to give the strands a flat outer surface. This process does not appear to be perfect, as you can see some spots flatter than others. 

The SS cables are then coated with some sort of bronze color uniform flat material. This material stays in place and appears to be fairly hard to scrape off, so it's clearly a dual coating process with 2 different materials. 
Then it appears to me the coated cable is wrapped like a screw thread with a thin thread of polymer material. After this process, you have a 6800 cable. Observed closely, you can see what appears to be a fine rounded thread spiraling around the cable.

The Dura-Ace version appears to get an additional gentle swage process that then flattens this polymer thread to be flat on the outside (versus 6800 which is rounded). This additional step appears to make it less susceptible to catching and "furring", which is fairly easy to accomplish, even with light pressure from your fingernail. Possible also explains the 9000 version being ever so slightly smaller in diameter. 

At my favorite US online bike site , replacement inner shift cables cost $17.50 for 9000 and $14. for 6800. If you are going for the polymer, I'd go the extra $4 for 9000. The SP41 housings and fittings are identical. Probably 6800 is fine for brakes. 

For comparison, they also sell - 

Shimano shift cables - PTFE / SS for $11., and SS for $5. 

Sram shift cables - PTFE / SS is $13., SS $6. 

Jagwire shift cables - PTFE / SS $7.50, SS $3.00

Fairwheel Bikes sells the Alligator 31 stand SS for $5. I just received a package with this cable yesterday, and it looks very nice, probably the best choice for non-coated use. The outer surface appears consistently flatter than the shimano SS cables (with coated removed).


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

cxwrench said:


> My go-to cable is and has for years been the SRAM Pit Stop 1.1 mm non-coated derailleur cable. Smooth and cheap. SRAM shifters rarely have the fatigue/fray/break the cable problem, and I just happen to use them. I have never personally had any problems w/ any of my cables fraying or breaking. I repair this issue on a weekly basis as part of my job. I replace my shift cables about every 6mos. And the housing.


I'm with you on the SRAM cables. Work really well for the $. One of the shops I worked in used QBP slick cables. That worked well as well.

Over the years, I've run lots of cables and housing. Biggest 'upgrade' I've seen is new cables and housing on a regular basis. Makes the bike shift so much better in one easy step.

M


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

metoou2 said:


> Never had any dealings with GORE or any other 'fully sealed' cable sets.


They're great things. Nice and smooth for a long time 'cause nothing gets inside the housing.



> So does the housing run the entire length of the cable so that no shift or brake cable is ever exposed?


Si.

M


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## Manning (Jul 8, 2010)

Z'mer said:


> ......
> 
> The SS cables are then coated with some sort of bronze color uniform flat material. This material stays in place and appears to be fairly hard to scrape off, so it's clearly a dual coating process with 2 different materials.
> Then it appears to me the coated cable is wrapped like a screw thread with a thin thread of polymer material. After this process, you have a 6800 cable. Observed closely, you can see what appears to be a fine rounded thread spiraling around the cable.
> ...


Exactly what it looks like to me. 

And I've see the entire cable set for brakes or shifters for less than $40. Wires, housing and all the fittings. Doesn't make sense to me to purchase the wires individually when the set is only a couple bucks more.


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## Doug B (Sep 11, 2009)

I installed all new cables on my Trek 2.3 after 3000 miles and the rear derailleur cable frayed. I installed jag wire. 2500 miles later, the rear derailleur cable frayed and broke. I bough about a dozen replacement cables, just the cable, not the outer conduit, from the local Performance Bike store that was going out of business last year. I think I pad $2 each. They are stainless with about 7 or 8 strands. 

I'll I'll change out the cable at 2000 miles, and have enough cables for eight to ten years at my current rate of usage. 

I guess I could replace the conduit in another year or two.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Z'mer said:


> At my favorite US online bike site , replacement inner shift cables cost $17.50 for 9000 and $14. for 6800. If you are going for the polymer, I'd go the extra $4 for 9000. The SP41 housings and fittings are identical. Probably 6800 is fine for brakes.
> 
> .



What online store is this you are talking about? Asking this because the store you mentioned, FairWheel, doesn't list Shimano cables on their website.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

froze said:


> What online store is this you are talking about?


ebikestop

All the cables mentioned above except Alligator is available there. May not always be in stock, and sometimes shipping may take an extra day or two. But faster than from the UK, and usually fairly low free ship hurdle. After maybe 5 orders, never a problem. Check the rims, too, especially H Plus Son.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Manning said:


> And I've see the entire cable set for brakes or shifters for less than $40. Wires, housing and all the fittings. Doesn't make sense to me to purchase the wires individually when the set is only a couple bucks more.


Unless after buying the whole cable set, you replace the rear cable and housing only, and replace the front cable set every 2nd or 3rd time you do the rear. 

This may make sense if you shift the rear 5-10X more than the front. That basically is my usage. You can get the SP41 housing in bulk pretty cheap, and re-use the fittings. Or experiment with different cables like the Alligator 31 stand. 

Agreed, makes no sense if you replace both front and rear every time. But not sure you really need to, especially if you replace the rear cable / housing 2X a year.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

What a great post Z'mere, thanks for the detailed analysis.

I noticed some Ti cables (KCNC) over at Fair Wheel Bikes. Would be curious to see how those hold up. I will never know. It would take Bill Gates money to afford them.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Doug B said:


> I installed all new cables on my Trek 2.3 after 3000 miles and the rear derailleur cable frayed. I installed jag wire. 2500 miles later, the rear derailleur cable frayed and broke.
> 
> I'll I'll change out the cable at 2000 miles, and have enough cables for eight to ten years at my current rate of usage.
> 
> I guess I could replace the conduit in another year or two.


I wouldn't expect that sort of life out of modern housing. While my replacement interval with unlined housings was too long to remember and the rear loop gunked first I'm only getting 5000 miles out of my plastic lined rear derailleur housing under the bar tape until it goes high-friction and degrades shifting to smaller cogs.

I'm also down to 2500 miles on right shifter cables before they're frayed and slow shifting now that I've moved on to Campagnolo Ultrashift levers with a 90 degree guide in the body; although starting at 4000-5000 miles with pointy-hood ergo levers that's not as big of a difference.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Drew, you're the first Campy guy reporting early cable failures. So, new Campy turns the cable on a 90 deg?


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

metoou2 said:


> Drew, you're the first Campy guy reporting early cable failures. So, new Campy turns the cable on a 90 deg?


Yup.









Pointy-hood ergo levers from 1992-1998 relied on the housing approaching nearly vertically to get the cable to the shift drum which resulted in a larger radius - note where it goes on the outside of each shifter body. 









Presumably the trend to hoods level with the bar top motivated the change since we no longer had the drop curve aiming the housing at the shift mechanism.

I skipped over the rounded-hood levers introduced in 1998 and couldn't tell you what their configuration or relative cable life was like.

FWIW, my 2010 Centaur Ultrashift levers use the revised cable drums not the 2009 originals if that makes a difference; although with the new lever cable breakage farther from the head than the old it's clearly the right-angle guides contributing to the problem.

2637 miles, genuine Campagnolo cable


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

edit........................................................................................


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

They're gonna kick you out of the Campy Club for airing their dirty little secrets.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

What I don't understand is that after 70 years or more of making derailleurs, and 20 years or so of integrated shifters companies come up with bonehead ideas that make stuff like cables to break. I can understand if an engineer can't think, maybe they're on something or got their degree from a paper mill, fine, but why aren't these products thoroughly tested before being shoved onto unsuspecting customers that are paying large amounts of money for components who are expecting to buy a quality product? And I seriously doubt that Campy will issue a recall since it's "just" a minor cable wear problem and thus will be called part of ongoing maintenance that we should be doing regularly so it's not their problem if the part fails but ours for allowing it to fail.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I hear ya Froze.
Its almost like a company is driven more by the 'swank look and style' of something rather than the practical mechanics.

Cables under the bar tape necessitated a diff. cable entry point and resulted in some sever angles. Visible cables, hidden cables, I would much rather have the butter smooth shifting created by the Shimano 7800 type design. 

And before anyone else posts it up, NO, NO, I truly don't want to push little electronic buttons on my bike.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

metoou2 said:


> I hear ya Froze.
> Its almost like a company is driven more by the 'swank look and style' of something rather than the practical mechanics.
> 
> 
> And before anyone else posts it up, NO, NO, I truly don't want to push little electronic buttons on my bike.


Exactly their driven by looks.

I also hear you on the electric stuff, there's too much to go wrong with servos, batteries, notoriously bad wireless sending units, etc. Nor do I want to access my computer to set up the electronic system and or run diagnostics, I can run diagnostic on my mechanical system without any of that crap nor spend any money to diagnose my mechanical stuff. If an engineer can't make a shift lever use a cable without damaging the cable I don't have much faith in their abilities to get more complicated with electronics!


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

7 pages and it finally came to mechanical vs electric.........geez.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)




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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

I'm about to build a bike for my nephew. I use Campagnolo cables on my other bike (Campy obviously) and Yokozuna on my SRAM Red bike. Thinking about using Jagwire cables. What is everyone's experience with the Jagwire Road Elite or Pro cables?


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## Teuthis (Jul 29, 2015)

...and my two cents from left field:

I had el-cheapo Jagwire cable coating start peeling off between the cable stop and bottom bracket guide, and when I removed the cable to replace it, the coating balled up on the way out, clogging the housing. Besides infuriating me, this got me to thinking about guitar strings. 

Yes indeed, Elixir brand guitar strings are covered in a "Polyweb" coating that prevents rust and gunk buildup and keeps the strings looking and sounding new much longer than non-coated strings. And despite dirty sweaty fingers, steel slides, pick slides, fretting, bending, being wrapped through a bridge, over a nut, and around a tuner post, the coating never peels, frays, or falls off. Maybe Shimano, Jagwire, et al should look into this. :thumbsup:


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I think I've found a sweet setup for cables. Normal stainless steel Shimano SP41 housing and cables. PTFE tubing purchased on eBay. Run the tubing between cable stops and lube the cable with SP41 grease. Seal the gaps with short piece of tight fitting clear tubing over the Shimano sealed ferrule end and the PTFE tubing. Hard for dirt to get in and you've eliminated the friction point of the dirty bottom bracket cable guide.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mfdemicco said:


> I think I've found a sweet setup for cables. Normal stainless steel Shimano SP41 housing and cables. PTFE tubing purchased on eBay. Run the tubing between cable stops and lube the cable with SP41 grease. Seal the gaps with short piece of tight fitting clear tubing over the Shimano sealed ferrule end and the PTFE tubing. Hard for dirt to get in and you've eliminated the friction point of the dirty bottom bracket cable guide.


This works well enough that I usually use the liners that SRAM gives sponsored teams. They're a liner like that w/ a little 'nub' on one end that helps hold the liner at the cable stop, or if used w/ the ferruels that come w/ the kits it goes inside the ferrule and the hole is big enough for the liner. Works great for keeping things clean, but don't think that there isn't any wear occuring in the housing just because it's clean(er) than w/o the liner. It still happens, you're just slowing it down a bit, especially at the ends of the housing that would normally be open. I won't use the 'sealed' ferrules because of the drag they create.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

config said:


> I'm about to build a bike for my nephew. I use Campagnolo cables on my other bike (Campy obviously) and Yokozuna on my SRAM Red bike. Thinking about using Jagwire cables. What is everyone's experience with the Jagwire Road Elite or Pro cables?


Depends on the groupset the bike for the nephew has. I read on the internet, which I can't find right now, that someone said that the best cables to use is the manufactures cables, except in the case of SRAM where Yokozuna Reaction is far better choice than SRAM cables. I think Jagwire cable is not as good as Dura Ace 9000 cables, but everyone has their opinions.


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

froze said:


> Depends on the groupset the bike for the nephew has. I read on the internet, which I can't find right now, that someone said that the best cables to use is the manufactures cables, except in the case of SRAM where Yokozuna Reaction is far better choice than SRAM cables. I think Jagwire cable is not as good as Dura Ace 9000 cables, but everyone has their opinions.


I'm using my old (original) SRAM Red group but I didn't want to splurge on the Yokozuna cables since my nephew is only 15.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

froze said:


> Depends on the groupset the bike for the nephew has. I read on the internet, which I can't find right now, that someone said that the best cables to use is the manufactures cables, except in the case of SRAM where Yokozuna Reaction is far better choice than SRAM cables. I think Jagwire cable is not as good as Dura Ace 9000 cables, but everyone has their opinions.


I love SRAM cables, they're very smooth and seem to hold up well inside the shifter. After a couple of years building bikes w/ the 'new' polymer Shimano cables I can say w/o a doubt that I hate them. Overpriced, over-tech'd...I wouldn't ever pay for them. 
As a reference I probably build anywhere from 50 to 100 bikes a year w/ those silly cables so I know them pretty well. I always pulled the Gore cables out of new SRAM shifters on all the team bikes too, so it's not just Shimano I have an issue with.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Since the thread has been resurrected...

I notice that Jenon's website lists the DA-9000 cables has having a lubricant, and the Ultegra-6800 does not mention that. 

The price is only a difference of $8, which I would happily spend to get something smoother, but my concern is still durability. Are the DA cables less durable?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

TiCoyote said:


> Are the DA cables less durable?


I don't think they are, while I don't ride mountains and thus don't shift and brake as much as I use to when I did live in those areas I'm now at the end of my 3rd season with the DA9000's and so far I see no evidence of fraying which leads me to believe I should be good for at least another season.

A website I visited and Adrenalin Bikes confirmed what I read that said if you replace base Shimano cables, which is what came on my Lynskey outfitted with 105 components (Ultegra rear derailleur) with the 9000 cables the shifting performance and the feel of the briftors would improve a lot, and they did. When I test rode bikes with the standard cables and 105 gear they didn't feel bad but you could tell they weren't quite as smooth as Dura Ace components, but when I got my bike with the 9000 cables the components I had felt very much like Dura Ace. So as far as I'm concern they make a really nice and noticeable upgrade to a bike for not a whole lot of money.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

TiCoyote said:


> Since the thread has been resurrected...
> 
> I notice that Jenon's website lists the DA-9000 cables has having a lubricant, and the Ultegra-6800 does not mention that.
> 
> The price is only a difference of $8, which I would happily spend to get something smoother, but my concern is still durability. Are the DA cables less durable?


I don't think they're any _less durable_, but I have seen a number of them frayed in the shifter. Give their price and the extra care that must be taken when installing them they're not worth it. I built a bike for our Trek rep the other day (Trek full suspension mtb) and the one cable on the whole bike was unuseable from the factory. The polymer coating was damaged in numerous areas and would not move smoothly through the housing at all. It was basically not possible to shift the derailleur w/ that cable. Replaced it w/ a Jagwire 1.1mm cable, normal stainless. Perfect shifting.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> I don't think they're any _less durable_, but I have seen a number of them frayed in the shifter. Give their price and the extra care that must be taken when installing them they're not worth it. I built a bike for our Trek rep the other day (Trek full suspension mtb) and the one cable on the whole bike was unuseable from the factory. The polymer coating was damaged in numerous areas and would not move smoothly through the housing at all. It was basically not possible to shift the derailleur w/ that cable. Replaced it w/ a Jagwire 1.1mm cable, normal stainless. Perfect shifting.


Are the DA cables any more or less likely to fray than the Ultegra cables?


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

So now it actually is time to replace the cables, and here's what I decided: 
1. The Dura-Ace 9000 cables seem to break more often than the Ultegra 6800 cables, but this is probably because of the shifter, not the cable. The DA shifter forces the cable through a tight bend, and cables fray and snap inside the shifter. I'm not sure whether anyone has tried putting different cables in the DA shifter to see if it makes a difference. 

2. The mechanic at my LBS told me to "just get a good, lined housing, and a good steel cable." He also told me to avoid the polymer-coated cables, because the polymer frays quickly, and increases friction. 

3. I got another recommendation for the Jagwire Road Pro cable set. The inner wires are teflon coated, the housings are lined, and the price is good. I got the set for $29. 

4. I've used Jagwire in the past, and I find them to be smoother than Shimano.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I'm going on my 3rd season with Dura Ace 9000 cables and they're like new, but I have 105 briftors and the problem with short lived cables was due to Dura Ace briftors, I don't know if Shimano fixed that issue with the newest DA briftors or not.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Hahaha...."briftors". ......


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

as far as cables fraying i believe there's no important design difference.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> as far as cables fraying i believe there's no important design difference.


Stress Test: Shimano Dura-Ace 9000 long-term review - VeloNews.com Apparently it is only Dura Ace 9000 shifters that do this


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

froze said:


> Stress Test: Shimano Dura-Ace 9000 long-term review - VeloNews.com Apparently it is only Dura Ace 9000 shifters that do this


I had 6800 on my C-59. Same issue. I'm also missing where they say 6800 does not have the problem.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I just pulled the 6800 derailleur cable out of the right/rear shifter, because shifting was starting to hang up. It had a serious kink right near the head, and the wires look a little mashed and separated, but it's not fraying... yet. The cable has been in there for 1 season. Interestingly, the first 6 inches or so (aka everything inside of the shifter) had the coating completely stripped away to the bare wire. I'm planning to replace the cables and housings with Jagwire Road pro when I do an overhaul later this month. I don't like to do the overhaul too early, because I want to wait until the roads and weather are a little cleaner and drier In the meantime, I put a Jagwire stainless steel cable that I had lying around in its place. 

TBF, my 6600 Ultegra shifters will eventually shred cables too. Just a matter of time.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

This appears to be a problem that occurs with all Shimano STI shifters of the last two generations. I have seen 5700 shifters shred cables in less than 2000 miles.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

Just replaced the cables and housings with THe Jagwire Road Pro. Jagwire Road Pro Complete Cable Kit > Components > Cables & Housing > Brake Cables & Housing | Jenson USA. Jenson did a price match for $27. It's like night and day. Rides like a new bike. Effortless, silky-smooth shifting.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

TiCoyote said:


> Just replaced the cables and housings with THe Jagwire Road Pro. Jagwire Road Pro Complete Cable Kit > Components > Cables & Housing > Brake Cables & Housing | Jenson USA. Jenson did a price match for $27. It's like night and day. Rides like a new bike. Effortless, silky-smooth shifting.



Isn't it amazing what a new set of cables can do?


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I think that the old cables, the coated 6800 cables, were shedding their coatings and clogging up the housings. Also, my BB-shell cable guide was totally packed with dirt.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

goodboyr said:


> Hahaha...."briftors". ......


That is a great description of a Shimano Brake/Shifter. The brake lever is part of the shifter. Unlike Campagnolo where they are separate.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

cs1 said:


> That is a great description of a Shimano Brake/Shifter. The brake lever is part of the shifter. Unlike Campagnolo where they are separate.


I've started my stopwatch.......


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

goodboyr said:


> I've started my stopwatch.......


Wow....still waiting for cxwrench......


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Is it "briftor" or "brifter"? Not a very descriptive term. When I first heard it, I thought it meant bar end shifter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

mfdemicco said:


> Is it "briftor" or "brifter"? ...


Brake & shifter = Brifter. If you don't like that, you can use "integrated brake lever and shifter" or the more cryptic Shimano "STI", Campy's "Ergo Lever," etc... Personally, I like the non-denominational and succinct brifter.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> Is it "briftor" or "brifter"? Not a very descriptive term. When I first heard it, I thought it meant bar end shifter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The word "brifter" a.k.a. the B-word is:

1) A combination of "brake" and "shifter". Could possibly be "shrake". Most commonly used to describe Shimano STI shifters or similar road shifters made by SRAM or Campagnalo. They are most commonly referred to as just "shifters" even though the brakes are an integral part oft them.

2) A word that CXWrench despises and may manically threaten you if/when you use it. You will rarely hear any bike mechanics use the B-word.


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