# Rock Racing manufacturing (or branding) their own bikes-Lord help us



## ping771

This is probably their big announcement. It looks they are partnering up with various component mfrs to create their own line of road bikes, 2 road bikes and 1 fixie. Wonder who is really making their frames, If anyone wants to add photos to this thread, please do since I can't find a photo of these bikes anywhere.
Link http://www.rockracing.com/splash.html?placeValuesBefore

Actually given their history of switching bike sponsors (or maybe the bike mfrs don't want to sponsor them) it seems every 6 mos (Fuji, De Rosa, Kestrel) I guess these guys think they be better on their own. I'm sure their bikes will be as fake bad ass as their kits.


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## robdamanii

Dear god, what a waste.


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## Coolhand

The Toyota United experiment 2.0. Remember how that worked out. . .


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## ping771

Coolhand said:


> The Toyota United experiment 2.0. Remember how that worked out. . .


Haha. Well at least Toyota United and Fuji seemed to have a respectable image. 

Michael Ball and the image he projects is like he wants to be the Dennis Rodman of cycling.


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## PaleAleYum

gegarrenton said:


> You can trash Ball all you want, he totally deserves it. But their kits are the only decent ones in the history of cycling ever that don't make you look like a butt f*****g q***r


Trust me. Anyone in lycra looks lame when 10 feet away from a bike. There is no special sauce in the "style" of Mr. Balls kit. Only trying to appeal to a different demographic.

"Everything is in the showroom man, nothing is in stock." Michael Creed


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## smartyiak

*5K Frameset?*

Given the over-priced nature of thier kits (and jeans they evolved from) what do you suppose will be the cost of a RR frame? I gonna say: frame, fork, headset = $5K.

-Smarty

P.S. I'm also guessing it's a PF or Martek that runs about $250.00 w/o the RR sticker set.


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## tron

Can't wait for the fire sale when the compny goes under.


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## hooligan

actually its all done by louis garneau


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## ping771

gegarrenton said:


> You can trash Ball all you want, he totally deserves it. But their kits are the only decent ones in the history of cycling ever that don't make you look like a butt f*****g q***r


I admit their kits are different, but the style is like Armani X-Change or Diesel, in that its kinda eurotrashy, if that's your thing. Skulls on your jersey does not make one bad ass. And if I remember correctly earlier this year or last year they were wearing kits that had red yellow and orange with "sculpted" muscles. It looked like a parody of a bad superhero costume. I'd wear a T-Mobile kit over this anyday of the week.


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## robdamanii

gegarrenton said:


> some homophobic gibberish


Nice, real nice.

Still, your opinion is just that. 

I see the future, and Rock Racing is not in it....


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## davidka

ewitz said:


> Sorry. I have to correct you on that one.
> 
> T-Mobile. 'nuff said.


Hot Pink? Really?...


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## DZfan14

smartyiak said:


> Given the over-priced nature of thier kits (and jeans they evolved from) what do you suppose will be the cost of a RR frame? I gonna say: frame, fork, headset = $5K.
> 
> -Smarty
> 
> P.S. I'm also guessing it's a PF or Martek that runs about $250.00 w/o the RR sticker set.


Beat me to it. But I think their bikes will go for much, much more. But if you pre order a bike before December 1st they will generously throw in two free authentic Rock Racing water bottles.


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## foofighter

davidka said:


> Hot Pink? Really?...


It's Man-Genta to you. 

I work for them and it's dam near impossible to find the real deal jerseys nowadays but i'd rock it.


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## brentster

ping771 said:


> If anyone wants to add photos to this thread, please do since I can't find a photo of these bikes anywhere.


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## jlandry

That's a good looking frame.


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## gegarrenton

dave2pvd said:


> Nice.


Just an expression. I have friends and relatives who are homosexual, I have zero problem with it.


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## gegarrenton

PaleAleYum said:


> Trust me. Anyone in lycra looks lame when 10 feet away from a bike. There is no special sauce in the "style" of Mr. Balls kit. Only trying to appeal to a different demographic.
> 
> "Everything is in the showroom man, nothing is in stock." Michael Creed


That's the biggest misconception ever. Tight clothes aren't the problem, it's the ludicrous styles. Football player wear tight clothes, track runners wear tight clothes, tight clothes aren't what looks silly, it's the style.

This is the only kit I would remotely be seen in public with


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## gegarrenton

ping771 said:


> I admit their kits are different, but the style is like Armani X-Change or Diesel, in that its kinda eurotrashy, if that's your thing. Skulls on your jersey does not make one bad ass. And if I remember correctly earlier this year or last year they were wearing kits that had red yellow and orange with "sculpted" muscles. It looked like a parody of a bad superhero costume. I'd wear a T-Mobile kit over this anyday of the week.


I think that Rock kit in the photo looks hilariously bad, pretty much like every other cycling kit out there.


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## brentster

Check out the amusing reader comment at the bottom of the official announcement.

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/interbike/rock-racing-reveals-new-partners-new-product-line-for-2010-exclusive-media-first-look-event-at-800-pm-tonight/


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## ping771

*A photo of the Rock Racing bike*

This is from roadbikeaction. This is kinda how I pictured it. The bike behind it in white looks less grotesque but there's no clear shot of it. Take away the wheels (which I imagine no one except the team will ride on) and the bmx looking cranks you have one regular looking bike. Actually Raleigh's SRAM Red equipped Team bike looks pretty hot.


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## brentster

ping771 said:


> This is from roadbikeaction. This is kinda how I pictured it. The bike behind it in white looks less grotesque but there's no clear shot of it.


Scott Addict


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## grrrah

brentster said:


> Scott Addict


Or at least the same factory that produces scott frames


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## PaleAleYum

*Poor business decison*

Let me get this straight. Mr Ball tells his riders that he had to fire/short pay/demote a number of them as the high priced jeans market took a crap. Things will get better when we get additional sponsors he says . Well Fall 2009 comes around and instead of courting new bike sponsors, he now intends to compete with them....... by getting into the painting and sticker business.

How does he expect the bike consumer to pay overinflated prices for off the shelf rebadged bikes??? Its not working on jeans in this market, why will it work for bikes? The mailorder model has worked for a few wheel builders, but their focus has been on value. I don't think Mr. Ball thinks in those terms. 

If I was one of his suppliers, it would be cash on the barrel head. Given his treatment of past partners, this will be another short term deal.

I've had sympathy for the RR riders in previous seasons as there are few options for domestic pros, but any anyone who signs /re-signs with RR is well aware of what bed they are getting into.

Creed said it best- 
"Everything is in the showroom man, nothing is in stock." 

Its just a dog and pony show- "style" over substance.


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## PaleAleYum

gegarrenton said:


> That's the biggest misconception ever. Tight clothes aren't the problem, it's the ludicrous styles. Football player wear tight clothes, track runners wear tight clothes, tight clothes aren't what looks silly, it's the style.



A correction to my earlier post: Trust me. Anyone in a *bike kit* looks lame when 10 feet away from a bike. There is no special sauce in the "style" of Mr. Balls kit. Only trying to appeal to a different demographic.

As far as what is silly...... that's in the eye of the beholder. I wouldn't consider wearing anything beyond my team kit, they all look kinda silly. But to me, the Rock Racing kits try too hard and end up looking kinda pathetic. Kind of like


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## gegarrenton

PaleAleYum said:


> A correction to my earlier post: Trust me. Anyone in a *bike kit* looks lame when 10 feet away from a bike. There is no special sauce in the "style" of Mr. Balls kit. Only trying to appeal to a different demographic.
> 
> As far as what is silly...... that's in the eye of the beholder. I wouldn't consider wearing anything beyond my team kit, they all look kinda silly. But to me, the Rock Racing kits try too hard and end up looking kinda pathetic. Kind of like


All I can say is that I have been looking for years for a kit that looks like this years Anarchy kit. I have searched high and low across every medium I can think of, and nada. I don't think every RR kit looks good, and I think Ball is a douche, but that new kit is good. I would have agreed that bike kit looks lame until I saw this.


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## Kenacycle

Andy at competitive cyclists posted a few pics of the Rock Racing bike at the Interbike


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## frdfandc

Kestrel - owned by Advanced Sports. World HQ - 10940 Dutton Rd, Philly, PA.

Fuji - owned by Advanced Sports. World HQ - 10940 Dutton Rd, Philly, PA.

Didn't go to far did they.


The Rock Racing bikes look like Fuji Team bikes.


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## cycledog81

Anyone can go to the far East and get a carbon frame from any of their stock carbon frames and put your own name on it. Big F***** deal Mr. Ball. Decals and a paint job and Ball has his own bike line. You know why he did this ?
Because no respectable bike company will have S**** to do with him. 
He is a total dirt bag and proves it with his every word.
P*** om him and his team.


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## cycledog81

Exactly my point, made by thousands, nothing different except paint and decals.
Real innovation from Mr. Ball........


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## ::dyslexic::

Their kits make you look like the tools that wear UFC/Tapout/Affliction shirts.


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## real stonie

When do the Abercrombie bikes hit the market?


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## Muaddib

Anyone know if Darth Maul called asking for his bike back from Rock Racing?


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## Dave Hickey

ping771 said:


> Haha. Well at least Toyota United and Fuji seemed to have a respectable image.
> 
> Michael Ball and the image he projects is like he wants to be the Dennis Rodman of cycling.




ask the suppliers who got stiffed but Toyota United and see if they agree..

I'm not a fan of Rock but at least he has the money to back up is team


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## 2ndGen

frdfandc said:


> Kestrel - owned by Advanced Sports. World HQ - 10940 Dutton Rd, Philly, PA.
> 
> Fuji - owned by Advanced Sports. World HQ - 10940 Dutton Rd, Philly, PA.
> 
> Didn't go to far did they.
> 
> 
> The Rock Racing bikes look like Fuji Team bikes.





Sure does look like it, but I can't believe they'll make this big fuss over it and come out with a Fuji clone. 
Reminds me of when auto manufacturers put out disguised test mules, 
but the final product comes out totally different. 

I'd bet that Giant might manufacture their new bikes 
(why not, they do it for some of the largest manufactuers around anyway 
like Trek, Specialized, Schwinn, Gary Fisher, LeMond, Klein and Bianchi). 

Too much branding of anything is never a good thing. 
Ultimately, despite the soap opera in the background, 
what matters is this...are they winning races? 

Once you win, you can dress however you want to dress. 
As for the gear, a resounding HELL YEAH! 
I like most of their gear. 

What I'd like to see their team in would be solid matte black retro-kits 
(ala' Mike Tyson in the early days when he'd come out in plain "all business" retro-boxing gear). 
Then, as the wins begin to pile on, they add a little dash of color here, a skull there, etc...
Anddddd, LAS for their helmets! LAS's unorthodox styling fits Rock Racing perfectly. 

For all the Hatorade being poured out for the brother that isn't here (Michael Ball), 
he's *still* doin' it and now, he has major partners.


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## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> Anyone can go to the far East and get a carbon frame from any of their stock carbon frames and put your own name on it. Big F***** deal Mr. Ball. Decals and a paint job and Ball has his own bike line. You know why he did this ?
> *Because no respectable bike company will have S**** to do with him.*
> He is a total dirt bag and proves it with his every word.
> P*** om him and his team.














*Louis Garneau, 
Prologo, 
Shimano, 
FSA, 
Lightweight, 
Vittoria. *


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## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> Real innovation from Mr. Ball........


http://www.rockthecurefoundation.com/about/rock.php

:thumbsup:

*Charitable Outreach*
Rock Racing sponsored numerous races in 2008, including the Amgen Tour of California, the Tour de Georgia, United States National Road Race Championships in Greenville,SC [44], the Commerce Bank Triple Crown of Cycling which includes the Philadelphia International Championship [45], the 35th annual Skyscraper Harlem Cycling Classic, and the Chevron Manhattan Beach Grand Prix.

The team also supported several charities. At the Tour of California, Rock The Cure donated $10,000 to a pair of after-school programs. At the Tour de Georgia, $250,000 was donated to the beneficiaries of the event, Aflac Cancer Center and Blood Disorders Service of Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta and the Georgia Cancer Coalition [46].

In an unprecedented move, Rock Racing announced on 6/3/2008, the creation of the “Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund,” a charitable entity to raise money for professional and elite amateur cyclists who suffer a catastrophic injury as a result of their participation in the competitive sport of cycling [47] . "Rock Racing will make the initial contribution with a significant donation and will continue the fund’s growth through direct monetary contributions as well as a percentage of its own sales. Ten percent of all Rock Racing on-line sales will benefit the fund as will 100 percent of proceeds from special Fund-branded products to be introduced later this year. The goal is to raise $20 million over the next two years."


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## Coolhand

*Moderators note.*



gegarrenton said:


> Just an expression. I have friends and relatives who are homosexual, I have zero problem with it.


 I do, and the word filter does- so don't do it again. Your post has been deleted accordingly.


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## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> http://www.rockthecurefoundation.com/about/rock.php
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> *Charitable Outreach*
> Rock Racing sponsored numerous races in 2008, including the Amgen Tour of California, the Tour de Georgia, United States National Road Race Championships in Greenville,SC [44], the Commerce Bank Triple Crown of Cycling which includes the Philadelphia International Championship [45], the 35th annual Skyscraper Harlem Cycling Classic, and the Chevron Manhattan Beach Grand Prix.
> 
> The team also supported several charities. At the Tour of California, Rock The Cure donated $10,000 to a pair of after-school programs. At the Tour de Georgia, $250,000 was donated to the beneficiaries of the event, Aflac Cancer Center and Blood Disorders Service of Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta and the Georgia Cancer Coalition [46].
> 
> In an unprecedented move, Rock Racing announced on 6/3/2008, the creation of the “Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund,” a charitable entity to raise money for professional and elite amateur cyclists who suffer a catastrophic injury as a result of their participation in the competitive sport of cycling [47] . "Rock Racing will make the initial contribution with a significant donation and will continue the fund’s growth through direct monetary contributions as well as a percentage of its own sales. Ten percent of all Rock Racing on-line sales will benefit the fund as will 100 percent of proceeds from special Fund-branded products to be introduced later this year. The goal is to raise $20 million over the next two years."


Howabout 2009? Got anything there?

Didn't think so.


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## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> Howabout 2009? Got anything there?
> 
> Didn't think so.












Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund
A charitable entity to raise money for professional and elite amateur cyclists who suffer 
a catastrophic injury as a result of their participation in the competitive sport of cycling 

*Ten percent of all Rock Racing on-line sales *will benefit the fund as will *100 percent 
of proceeds from special Fund-branded products to be introduced later this year*. 

This year? *2009*

https://www.rif.org/


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## PaleAleYum

*Dude, Can you lay off the kool aid?*



2ndGen said:


> Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund
> A charitable entity to raise money for professional and elite amateur cyclists who suffer
> a catastrophic injury as a result of their participation in the competitive sport of cycling
> 
> *Ten percent of all Rock Racing on-line sales *will benefit the fund as will *100 percent
> of proceeds from special Fund-branded products to be introduced later this year*.
> 
> This year? *2009*
> 
> https://www.rif.org/


I think that we get you are fan. 

Just one suggestion. Don't believe all that you read in a *press release*. Press releases are not fact checked. 

"most successful program" Hell, I can make the same claim of my cross season last year, and I never made the podium. This is marketing speak. Take a deep breath and try to be objective.

As far as the Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund, yes Mr ball got some great press time when he announced the proposed inception of this fund in 2008. I just don't believe that he bothered to follow through and actually create and fund it. It would be a non profit organization, so it financial would be available to the public. If you can't find them online, I suggest you ask your friend Mr. ball for a copy. I'm sure that he'd be glad to produce them as a viable PCCIF would be a huge marketing tool. My guess is that with a record of not paying riders, canceling contracts, and generally working over their suppliers, he probably forgot to put money into the fund.

"to be introduced later this year" more marketing speak for - we haven't figured this thing out, but we want to make a big impression now.


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## FondriestFan

I think that bike is pretty garish, but my wife really likes it.


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## 2ndGen

PaleAleYum said:


> I think that we get you are fan.












Yep! Dat's Me!......................:thumbsup: 



> Just one suggestion. Don't believe all that you read in a *press release*. Press releases are not fact checked.


So, all the cycling magazines and sites are "in on" Ball's evil plan to dominate the cyclying jeans world? 

 



> "most successful program" Hell, I can make the same claim of my cross season last year, and I never made the podium. This is marketing speak. Take a deep breath and try to be objective.


Um, I think his team has actually made the podium more than "never", 
so maybe that's not a good comparison? 

:lol: 







> As far as the Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund, yes Mr ball got some great press time when he announced the proposed inception of this fund in 2008. I just don't believe that he bothered to follow through and actually create and fund it. It would be a non profit organization, so it financial would be available to the public. If you can't find them online, I suggest you ask your friend Mr. ball for a copy. I'm sure that he'd be glad to produce them as a viable PCCIF would be a huge marketing tool. My guess is that with a record of not paying riders, canceling contracts, and generally working over their suppliers, he probably forgot to put money into the fund.



You don't "believe"? 
What do you actually "know"?
Do you know that he didn't start this fund? 



(I guess him donating $250,000.00 to cancer organizations helping children 
[that's a quarter of a million dollars] is all part of this great hoax.)  





> "to be introduced later this year" more marketing speak for -
> we haven't figured this thing out, but we want to make a big impression now.


Really? How did you come to this conclusion (that what you believe "is" true)? 

From what I see, they have a team and they win, 
they give a lot of money to charity 
and they "p" off Bike Snobs (which is my favorite thing they do!). 



Just curious, since when was being competitive a bad thing in the cycling world?
Since when did the soap opera behind the scenes matter more than actually winning in racing? 

 



The cure for R.R.D.D. [Rock Racking Derangement Disorder







] is to simply "not" care enough to get upset about it!

And knowing is 1/2 the battle!


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## Coolhand

Michael, is that you?


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## gegarrenton

Coolhand said:


> Michael, is that you?


Who, me? No, I'm Graham


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## gegarrenton

::dyslexic:: said:


> Their kits make you look like the tools that wear UFC/Tapout/Affliction shirts.


What!?! Dude, normal cycling kits look like those lame Affliction T's. These actually don't, which is why they are good.


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## bmxhacksaw

What's wrong with bmx looking cranks, huh?


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## zoikz

*Fred Racing*

You can wear whatever you want. Personally I think riding around in the full kit of a pro team is pretty junior high. Riding around in a full RR kit with matching bike, wheels etc... that is the very essence of a Fred.* Maybe he'll come up with a carbon fiber kick stand and a titanium rear view mirror. Would help target his market. (Joke don't get your latex in a bind if you love his gear)
If you want to be original, he's not where it's at. There are not a lot of others making bike clothing like this, but go to the mall and half the high schoolers have the same fashion. T-shirts and hoodies with skulls, crests and faux spray paint. Distressed denim, greasy hair and euro sneakers. 
He's taken the same fashion aesthetic and applied it to bike cloths and now bikes. Nothing particularly original in that. Obviously there are people who like this aesthetic and they will love his gear. 
Personally if I was going to spend $400 on a kit...well actually I won't spend $400 on a kit. But for others out there willing to spend that dough you'd look way cooler wearing Rapha.
I wonder how he's going to distribute his line. Hard to imagine LBS's are going to touch a product with that much mark-up. All his stuff is basically relabeled product. Hardly new, but he does not have a distribution system and his designs just won't work with other products.. Anyone at Interbike have an inside scoop on how they are going to sell this stuff? Seems like an all or nothing deal. Could you put a RR stem on a Trek? Saving every dime to buy some carbon race wheels, how about spending a couple hundred more for a RR sticker?
If he can score a major victory with the actual design of his bike he may get some points. Looking forward to tech reviews of the products. 
As entertaining as he is now, he'll be even more entertaining as he does a cataclysmic crash and burn with this stuff. God I hope someone is doing a documentary on him and we can get footage of this.

*fred n. 1) a person who spends a lot of money on his bike and clothing, but still can't ride. "What a fred -- too much Lycra and titanium and not enough skill." Synonym for poser.


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## 2ndGen

Coolhand said:


> Michael, is that you?












No!

But you'd think RR would give me something for my apologetics work on their behalf, huh?

:lol:

[Thank you for the Monday morning laugh CH! Every time I see your name pop up, this comes into my mind...]


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## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> Who, me? No, I'm Graham


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## BuenosAires

zoikz said:


> You can wear whatever you want. Personally I think riding around in the full kit of a pro team is pretty junior high. Riding around in a full RR kit with matching bike, wheels etc... that is the very essence of a Fred.* Maybe he'll come up with a carbon fiber kick stand and a titanium rear view mirror. Would help target his market. (Joke don't get your latex in a bind if you love his gear)
> If you want to be original, he's not where it's at. There are not a lot of others making bike clothing like this, but go to the mall and half the high schoolers have the same fashion. T-shirts and hoodies with skulls, crests and faux spray paint. Distressed denim, greasy hair and euro sneakers.
> He's taken the same fashion aesthetic and applied it to bike cloths and now bikes. Nothing particularly original in that. Obviously there are people who like this aesthetic and they will love his gear.
> Personally if I was going to spend $400 on a kit...well actually I won't spend $400 on a kit. But for others out there willing to spend that dough you'd look way cooler wearing Rapha.
> I wonder how he's going to distribute his line. Hard to imagine LBS's are going to touch a product with that much mark-up. All his stuff is basically relabeled product. Hardly new, but he does not have a distribution system and his designs just won't work with other products.. Anyone at Interbike have an inside scoop on how they are going to sell this stuff? Seems like an all or nothing deal. Could you put a RR stem on a Trek? Saving every dime to buy some carbon race wheels, how about spending a couple hundred more for a RR sticker?
> If he can score a major victory with the actual design of his bike he may get some points. Looking forward to tech reviews of the products.
> As entertaining as he is now, he'll be even more entertaining as he does a cataclysmic crash and burn with this stuff. God I hope someone is doing a documentary on him and we can get footage of this.
> 
> *fred n. 1) a person who spends a lot of money on his bike and clothing, but still can't ride. "What a fred -- too much Lycra and titanium and not enough skill." Synonym for poser.


Gee.....thanks for the education.


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## zoikz

glad I could be of service.


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## 2ndGen

zoikz said:


> You can wear whatever you want. Personally I think riding around in the full kit of a pro team is pretty junior high. Riding around in a full RR kit with matching bike, wheels etc... that is the very essence of a Fred.* Maybe he'll come up with a carbon fiber kick stand and a titanium rear view mirror. Would help target his market.
> If you want to be original, he's not where it's at. There are not a lot of others making bike clothing like this, but go to the mall and half the high schoolers have the same fashion. T-shirts and hoodies with skulls, crests and faux spray paint. Distressed denim, greasy hair and euro sneakers.
> He's taken the same fashion aesthetic and applied it to bike cloths and now bikes. Nothing particularly original in that. Obviously there are people who like this aesthetic and they will love his gear.
> Personally if I was going to spend $400 on a kit...well actually I won't spend $400 on a kit. But for others out there willing to spend that dough you'd look way cooler wearing Rapha.
> I wonder how he's going to distribute his line. Hard to imagine LBS's are going to touch a product with that much mark-up. All his stuff is basically relabeled product. Hardly new, but he does not have a distribution system and his designs just won't work with other products.. Anyone at Interbike have an inside scoop on how they are going to sell this stuff? Seems like an all or nothing deal. Could you put a RR stem on a Trek? Saving every dime to buy some carbon race wheels, how about spending a couple hundred more for a RR sticker?
> If he can score a major victory with the actual design of his bike he may get some points. Looking forward to tech reviews of the products.
> As entertaining as he is now, he'll be even more entertaining as he does a cataclysmic crash and burn with this stuff. God I hope someone is doing a documentary on him and we can get footage of this.
> 
> *fred n. 1) a person who spends a lot of money on his bike and clothing, but still can't ride. "What a fred -- too much Lycra and titanium and not enough skill." Synonym for poser.


[Believe it or not...]

I agree with about 95% of what you just wrote. I personally would "not" buy a full kit of any team (but would never judge/look down upon anybody that actually did). I wouldn't even by a RR Jersey unless I could do at least 1/2 a century with a respectable time (I'm getting there). That would be a small reward to myself. 

What I do is I accessorize myself as my skill level requires. For example, I'm riding with MTB shoes on my RB, but now, I'm putting in more miles so I'm ready to get a good pair of RB shoes (I have an entry level pair of RB shoes, but used them only once and the good pair of MTB shoes are way better than my entry level pair of RB shoes). 

It took me a few months just to put on lycra shorts. I used to use a fitted Champion tech t-shirt because I didn't want to look like a RBer without being able to actually put in some serious work. Now, I use MTB jerseys (which are leaps and bounds better) and am looking for my first nice RBing jerseys to get. 

As for Rock Racing and their image, their poster is what made me throw away all my misconceptions of RBing being a weaker sport than MTBing. And boy was I wrong! Now, I RB more than MTB and I love it. And, I've been rightfully humbled by my bike many a time. 

For me, personally speaking, Rock Racing "is" different. Their doing some things that weren't being done by other RB teams. And, when you see a Rock Racing member riding in a peloton, you notice them! 

The team is what? Barely 3 years old? What can anybody expect of them? For their age, are they doing well? Or poorly? I'd give up somebody else's left nut to be able to ride like their worst rider.


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## JohnHenry

zoikz said:


> Hard to imagine LBS's are going to touch a product with that much mark-up. .


Rock's stuff is over the top expensive (like many, many producers of cycling gear). 


I have never been in an LBS that doesn't like mark up...*$7* Bontrager "tubes for rubes" is one of my all time favorites. Those LBS are always looking for cost savings to pass on.


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## Sylint

What exactly are they doing that is so different from everyone else...race wise..not "look at how hardcore we are" image wise..but actually in the peleton..what is so different?

And you're going to notice whatever team you follow. I like Garmin, so when I'm watching, I can pick out a Garmin kit in a sea of colors immediatly...because I am looking for it. Pretty much the same reason you "notice" RR kits. It's cool if you like them, go for it, if it got you into riding, awesome. 

I'm just still curious what "it" is that you say they are doing that's so different in the peleton?


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## 2ndGen

JohnHenry said:


> Rock's stuff is over the top expensive (like many, many producers of cycling gear).
> 
> 
> I have never been in an LBS that doesn't like mark up...*$7* Bontrager "tubes for rubes" is one of my all time favorites. Those LBS are always looking for cost savings to pass on.


Just gotta keep an eye out for the sales they have regularly (50%+ off). 

*$85.00*


----------



## gegarrenton

2ndGen said:


> Just gotta keep an eye out for the sales they have regularly (50%+ off).
> 
> *$85.00*


See now, I find those kits hideous.


----------



## 2ndGen

Sylint said:


> What exactly are they doing that is so different from everyone else...race wise..not "look at how hardcore we are" image wise..but actually in the peleton..what is so different?


Giving guys like "these" a chance to compete again: 














> And you're going to notice whatever team you follow. I like Garmin, so when I'm watching, I can pick out a Garmin kit in a sea of colors immediatly...because I am looking for it. Pretty much the same reason you "notice" RR kits. It's cool if you like them, go for it, if it got you into riding, awesome.
> 
> I'm just still curious what "it" is that you say they are doing that's so different in the peleton?


For me, it's the fearlessness in their approach to racing. 
They really don't seem to care about conforming to what others want/expect/demand of them. 
Again, I'm a big fan of the 2nd chance concept. 
It seems that they land on two sides with really not many inbetweeners.
People either can't stand them or they really like them.


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> See now, I find those kits hideous.


Not a fan of the outrageous colors...I, myself prefer their "plainer" stuff (my word!  )...


----------



## gegarrenton

2ndGen said:


> Not a fan of the outrageous colors...I, myself prefer their "plainer" stuff (my word!  )...


Yeah, me too.


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> Yeah, me too.


 ....


----------



## Sylint

see, both of those are decent. Hell I actually own some R&R jeans, but the "Never give up, never surrender" "Rock's not dead" spraypainted anarchy kit is just atrocious.


----------



## gegarrenton

Sylint said:


> see, both of those are decent. Hell I actually own some R&R jeans, but the "Never give up, never surrender" "Rock's not dead" spraypainted anarchy kit is just atrocious.


Wow, you like that really neon junk? yikes. The anarchy stuff is awesome to me. Black and blood red colors, plenty of traditional skulls instead of that stylized new wave MMA themed crap.

For the record, I would no more buy R&R clothes than punch myself in the nuts. Same as all that Ed Hardy, Affliction, and other trendy stuff. That stuff is so faux it's retarded. My clothes consists of Dickie's work pants, cotton tee's and my Kavu, Prana and Patagonia synthetics and climbing clothes.


----------



## Sylint

gegarrenton said:


> Wow, you like that really neon junk? yikes. The anarchy stuff is awesome to me. Black and blood red colors, plenty of traditional skulls instead of that stylized new wave MMA themed crap.
> 
> For the record, I would no more buy R&R clothes than punch myself in the nuts. Same as all that Ed Hardy, Affliction, and other trendy stuff. That stuff is so faux it's retarded. My clothes consists of Dickie's work pants, cotton tee's and my Kavu, Prana and Patagonia synthetics and climbing clothes.



No, I like the white and black, normal ones. You say you like the anarchy kits, but they look just like all that MMA themed crap you just railed on.


Also for the record...the two R&R Jeans I have, look like normal jeans..they are almost 5 years old now and are great quality. However there is nothing about their newer product line that looks remotely wearable.


----------



## brentster

So THAT'S where Guns and Roses got that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## gegarrenton

Sylint said:


> No, I like the white and black, normal ones. You say you like the anarchy kits, but they look just like all that MMA themed crap you just railed on.
> 
> 
> Also for the record...the two R&R Jeans I have, look like normal jeans..they are almost 5 years old now and are great quality. However there is nothing about their newer product line that looks remotely wearable.


I don't see that at all. No gold leaf, or stylized images or any of that stuff. Just basic red and black and white with very traditional images.

FWIW, I haven't seen any old R&R jeans, but I avoid that stuff on principle. There is no way they can be any better the Lee or Levi's. Dickies are $16.99, and mine are at least 6-7 years old and going strong.


----------



## zoikz

*Anyone buy RR?*

I'm guessing even guys who like the look of the kits, are not buying them.


----------



## fab4

I wonder if the Rock Racing bike will be sold at Performance bike shops. Fuji makes the Scattante brand bikes for performance.


----------



## old_fuji

has there been any word on pricepoint of these RR bikes?


----------



## gegarrenton

zoikz said:


> I'm guessing even guys who like the look of the kits, are not buying them.


I actually bought a set of bibs after this post, just cause. One thing I will say, they are nice as ****! I'm was actually surprised how much better they are than my Volers. Plus they look rad. I actually rode to work today for the first time without shorts over since I liked them so much. Not a fan of bibs though, so not sure how much I will wear them.


----------



## jlandry

2ndGen said:


> Giving guys like "these" a chance to compete again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO THE F*CK IS THAT?


----------



## b24fsb

i remember reading an article about this guy in a cycling mag or online. he has been out of racing for like a couple years due to drug use but got into rehab and was turning his life around and was in the process of getting his tattoos removed.


----------



## CabDoctor

It's David Clinger. Ex-Postal and Festina rider


----------



## The Weasel

Well at least they look different from every other road bike out there. Oh wait, they're red white, and black too. Nevermind.


----------



## 2ndGen

jlandry said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Giving guys like "these" a chance to compete again:
> 
> WHO THE F*CK IS THAT?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Clinger. Now he's riding with Cole Sport now.
Click to expand...


----------



## gegarrenton

2ndGen said:


> jlandry said:
> 
> 
> 
> David Clinger. Now he's riding with Cole Sport now.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that from the Dept of redundancy dept?
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that from the Dept of redundancy dept?
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's from the "responding to the guy who addressed _me _directly" Dept.
> 
> :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


----------



## gegarrenton

2ndGen said:


> gegarrenton said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's from the "responding to the guy who addressed _me _directly" Dept.
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> He must have required two now's in his response then
> 
> 
> 
> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> David Clinger. *Now* he's riding with Cole Sport *now*.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> He must have required two now's in his response then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> 
> Now I get what you mean.
> 
> I thought you were mocking me for a different reason (my responding to him after someone else posted the answer).
> 
> I didn't realize you were correcting my grammar Professor.
Click to expand...


----------



## gegarrenton

2ndGen said:


> gegarrenton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> 
> Now I get what you mean (thought you were mocking me for a different reason...
> my responding to him "after" someone else posted the answer).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :cornut:
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> He must have required two now's in his response then
> 
> 
> 
> By they way, it isn't two "now's", but two "nows" and you didn't use a period at the end of that sentence.
> 
> Oh crap!
> 
> Look at that!
> 
> Now I sound like a pompous donkey for trying to correct someone!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> :cornut:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> That was the quickest flame war I've ever been in G!
> 
> :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## gegarrenton

2ndGen said:


> gegarrenton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> That was the quickest flame war I've ever been in G!
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if nothing else, we're efficient!
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndGen

gegarrenton said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if nothing else, we're efficient!
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Oh man, I've been doing this too long!
Click to expand...


----------



## cycledog81

2ndGen said:


> http://www.rockthecurefoundation.com/about/rock.php
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> *Charitable Outreach*
> Rock Racing sponsored numerous races in 2008, including the Amgen Tour of California, the Tour de Georgia, United States National Road Race Championships in Greenville,SC [44], the Commerce Bank Triple Crown of Cycling which includes the Philadelphia International Championship [45], the 35th annual Skyscraper Harlem Cycling Classic, and the Chevron Manhattan Beach Grand Prix.
> 
> The team also supported several charities. At the Tour of California, Rock The Cure donated $10,000 to a pair of after-school programs. At the Tour de Georgia, $250,000 was donated to the beneficiaries of the event, Aflac Cancer Center and Blood Disorders Service of Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta and the Georgia Cancer Coalition [46].
> 
> In an unprecedented move, Rock Racing announced on 6/3/2008, the creation of the “Professional Cycling Catastrophic Injury Fund,” a charitable entity to raise money for professional and elite amateur cyclists who suffer a catastrophic injury as a result of their participation in the competitive sport of cycling [47] . "Rock Racing will make the initial contribution with a significant donation and will continue the fund’s growth through direct monetary contributions as well as a percentage of its own sales. Ten percent of all Rock Racing on-line sales will benefit the fund as will 100 percent of proceeds from special Fund-branded products to be introduced later this year. The goal is to raise $20 million over the next two years."


They haven't dropped a dime in the fund according to a USA cycling source. In fact all the contact and web information is gone. THERE IS NO FUND available for injured pro cyclist.
Michael Ball is a liar and con artist. He has cheated riders out of pay and failed to live up to his promises.


----------



## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> They haven't dropped a dime in the fund according to a USA cycling source. In fact all the contact and web information is gone. THERE IS NO FUND available for injured pro cyclist.
> Michael Ball is a liar and con artist. He has cheated riders out of pay and failed to live up to his promises.


Where'd you get that information from?


And, are you implying that they "_only_" gave a quarter of a million dollars ($250,000.00) to charity?


----------



## ultimobici

2ndGen said:


> Where'd you get that information from?
> 
> 
> And, are you implying that they "_only_" gave a quarter of a million dollars ($250,000.00) to charity?


No hew was pointing out that there is no fund for injured professionals. All it was was smoke and mirrors. Ball has a track record of sharp practices regarding contracts etc. Perhaps if he spent less money on making a show, he might be able to honour riders' contracts and afford a good enough legal team with better reading & comprehension skills to interpret that UCI rules??


----------



## 2ndGen

ultimobici said:


> No hew was pointing out that there is no fund for injured professionals. All it was was smoke and mirrors. Ball has a track record of sharp practices regarding contracts etc. Perhaps if he spent less money on making a show, he might be able to honour riders' contracts and afford a good enough legal team with better reading & comprehension skills to interpret that UCI rules??


First question was requesting evidence.

Second part of my response was being sarcastic (to show how people will judge someone by what they "don't" supposedly do, while completely choosing to ignore what they have "actually done"). Understand?

So far, all I've seen here is griping and personal insults at a man who's probably done more to benefit someone other than himself than all the haters here combined when it comes to charitable works. 

And why? 

Because he doesn't conform to their idea of how a cycling team should be run, because he doesn't use proper attire, because he gives riders who've made mistakes 2nd chances and probably because he was supposed to have been dead last year (but instead, continue to garner wins, while expanding and branching out into other fields of the sport). 

There are just some people who are going to hate him no matter what he does and completely ignore the good he's done...just like some people just can't stand to see this name typed on these forums "Lance". 

I'll dare say this...the majority of his supporters (including myself) are Road Biking Newbies; Those of us who are too new to be snobs. I'm not saying that if someone hates him the makes them a snob, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of those that hate him have snob tendencies without a doubt. 



Well, I'm looking forward to the evidence that he never established the fund for injured riders (instead of "well, I heard it through the grapevine..."). Even if he never did, he's already given away more money than what most people pay for a home. And that alone is good enough (for those who benefit from his compassion). 

Plus, he angers Road Biking Snobs!

He should get an award just for that! 

:lol:


----------



## ultimobici

2ndGen said:


> First question was requesting evidence.
> 
> Second part of my response was being sarcastic (to show how people will judge someone by what they "don't" supposedly do, while completely choosing to ignore what they have "actually done"). Understand?
> 
> So far, all I've seen here is griping and personal insults at a man who's probably done more to benefit someone other than himself than all the haters here combined when it comes to charitable works.
> 
> And why?
> 
> Because he doesn't conform to their idea of how a cycling team should be run, because he doesn't use proper attire, because he gives riders who've made mistakes 2nd chances and probably because he was supposed to have been dead last year (but instead, continue to garner wins, while expanding and branching out into other fields of the sport).
> 
> There are just some people who are going to hate him no matter what he does and completely ignore the good he's done...just like some people just can't stand to see this name typed on these forums "Lance".
> 
> I'll dare say this...the majority of his supporters (including myself) are Road Biking Newbies; Those of us who are too new to be snobs. I'm not saying that if someone hates him the makes them a snob, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of those that hate him have snob tendencies without a doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm looking forward to the evidence that he never established the fund for injured riders (instead of "well, I heard it through the grapevine..."). Even if he never did, he's already given away more money than what most people pay for a home. And that alone is good enough (for those who benefit from his compassion).
> 
> Plus, he angers Road Biking Snobs!
> 
> He should get an award just for that!
> 
> :lol:


Nah, I have no problem with anyone who tries to buck the trend and carve their own way.

However, Michael Ball makes a lot of noise and then either doesn't deliver at all or plain stuffs it up. The team status issue is just one cock up among many.

His second chances thing is funny. ALL of the guys he gave a second chance to after their doping bans have an extra thing in common. They all protested their innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence. 

The evidence of a person's character is in the minutae of their actions, not the big gestures. Giving $250000 to charity is great, but the little stuff about deliver or your fired contracts, crappy management, and stiffing riders speaks volumes for my money.


----------



## 2ndGen

ultimobici said:


> Nah, I have no problem with anyone who tries to buck the trend and carve their own way.
> 
> However, Michael Ball makes a lot of noise and then either doesn't deliver at all or plain stuffs it up. The team status issue is just one cock up among many.


See, I don't get that. 

People say he's full of it, even though his team wins races. 
What's your definition of success if competing and winning isn't? 
Besides that, what other reason would someone have to be upset with him? 



> His second chances thing is funny. ALL of the guys he gave a second chance to after their doping bans have an extra thing in common. They all protested their innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence.


Uh, if they "were" innocent, then it wouldn't be called a "2nd chance". 

:lol:







> The evidence of a person's character is in the minutae of their actions, not the big gestures. Giving $250000 to charity is great, but the little stuff about deliver or your fired contracts, crappy management, and stiffing riders speaks volumes for my money.


Well, I'm pretty sure he didn't waste any of "your" money, so don't stress it. 

As for as performance based contracts go, it is what it is. Since it's "his" money he was putting in at the time, he had every right to choose to only employ productive riders. 

And, it looks like it's paid off. His team wins. 

Question: Would you hire someone and paid them whether they contributed to your company's production or not? If you answer yes, then you probably wouldn't be in business as long as Mr. Ball has been racing. 

He's still here (despite all the "doom & gloom forecasts). I believe one cycling site called it "Rumors of Team Rock Racing's Untimely Demise Greatly Exaggerated..." 


I mean, enlighten me if I'm wrong, but this "is" good for competitive racing, no? 

"_Rock Racing had a very successful season in 2008, winning 45 races and four national titles, while putting a rider in the top-three overall 106 times_." 
http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Peloton/teams/2009-team-rock-racing.html

His team is in the Top 10 of professional cycling for 2009 (in spite of it's troubles). 
And now, he's going to have partners for 2010? It can only get better.

If he could do that by himself, imagine how much more he can do with some backing.


----------



## old_fuji

old_fuji said:


> has there been any word on pricepoint of these RR bikes?


:9: :17:


----------



## JSR

2ndGen said:


> See, I don't get that.


I'm with you, up to a point.

I'm good with the 2nd chance stuff. Good on him and the guys he gave a riding home to. So far, only one of them, IIRC, has failed him on the doping issue, and that guy clearly has some emotional problems underlying his need to dope.

OTOH, Ball was on a track to create a Pro Continental team, but had to scale back that plan dramatically. Several riders who had expectations of a pro contract were handed a take it or leave it alternative when it was way too late to develop options. I think Ball got blindsided by the downturn in his business, but the harm to riders is extremely unfortunate.

Also, I don't know which group of 10 pro teams Rock is among, but it's not the Top ones. 

JSR


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> See, I don't get that.
> 
> People say he's full of it, even though his team wins races.
> What's your definition of success if competing and winning isn't?
> Besides that, what other reason would someone have to be upset with him?
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, if they "were" innocent, then it wouldn't be called a "2nd chance".
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm pretty sure he didn't waste any of "your" money, so don't stress it.
> 
> As for as performance based contracts go, it is what it is. Since it's "his" money he was putting in at the time, he had every right to choose to only employ productive riders.
> 
> And, it looks like it's paid off. His team wins.
> 
> Question: Would you hire someone and paid them whether they contributed to your company's production or not? If you answer yes, then you probably wouldn't be in business as long as Mr. Ball has been racing.
> 
> He's still here (despite all the "doom & gloom forecasts). I believe one cycling site called it "Rumors of Team Rock Racing's Untimely Demise Greatly Exaggerated..."
> 
> 
> I mean, enlighten me if I'm wrong, but this "is" good for competitive racing, no?
> 
> "_Rock Racing had a very successful season in 2008, winning 45 races and four national titles, while putting a rider in the top-three overall 106 times_."
> http://www.amgentourofcalifornia.com/Peloton/teams/2009-team-rock-racing.html
> 
> His team is in the Top 10 of professional cycling for 2009 (in spite of it's troubles).
> And now, he's going to have partners for 2010? It can only get better.
> 
> If he could do that by himself, imagine how much more he can do with some backing.


And yet again, you deliver results from 2008.

And his team is top 10 professional teams in 2009? I see fully 34 teams in front of them:
1 1 AST ASTANA KAZ 1100
2 6 GCE CAISSE D'EPARGNE ESP 1048
3 2 THR TEAM COLUMBIA - HTC USA 957
4 3 SAX TEAM SAXO BANK DEN 941
5 4 LIQ LIQUIGAS ITA 923
6 5 CTT CERVELO TEST TEAM SUI 804
7 7 QST QUICK STEP BEL 760
8 9 SIL SILENCE-LOTTO BEL 717
9 10 RAB RABOBANK NED 667
10 8 KAT TEAM KATUSHA RUS 637
11 11 GRM GARMIN - SLIPSTREAM USA 612
12 12 EUS EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI ESP 551
13 13 LAM LAMPRE - N.G.C ITA 465
14 14 SDA SERRAMENTI PVC DIQUIGIOVANNI-ANDRONI GIOCATTOLI VEN 379
15 15 FDJ FRANÇAISE DES JEUX FRA 238
16 16 ALM AG2R LA MONDIALE FRA 206
17 17 ASA ACQUA & SAPONE - CAFFE MOKAMBO ITA 189
18 18 MRM TEAM MILRAM GER 182
19 19 BBO BBOX BOUYGUES TELECOM FRA 170
20 20 COF COFIDIS, LE CREDIT EN LIGNE FRA 166
21 - XAC XACOBEO GALICIA ESP 128
22 22 VAC VACANSOLEIL PRO CYCLING TEAM NED 108
23 23 FUJ FUJI-SERVETTO ESP 104
24 21 LPR LPR BRAKES FARNESE VINI IRL 102
25 24 AGR AGRITUBEL FRA 34
26 25 SKS SKIL-SHIMANO NED 33
27 26 FLM CERAMICA FLAMINIA - BOSSINI DOCCE IRL 26
28 30 MCO CONTENTPOLIS-AMPO ESP 24
29 27 ACA ANDALUCIA CAJASUR ESP 21
30 28 BAR BARLOWORLD GBR 20
31 29 TSV TOPSPORT VLAANDEREN - MERCATOR BEL 11
32 31 LAN LANDBOUWKREDIET - COLNAGO BEL 4
33 32 BMC BMC RACING TEAM USA 4
34 33 ISD ISD - NERI ITA 3


And then there's 6 US pro teams ahead of them:

1 COLAVITA OLIVE OIL/SUTTER HOME PRO CYCLING T 2831
2 BISSELL PRO CYCLING TEAM 2531
3 OUCH P/B MAXXIS 2015
4 TEAM TYPE 1 1531
5 BMC RACING 1388
6 KELLY BENEFIT STRATEGIES 1281
7 ROCK RACING 1118

Now...they're the top of the professional world? Somehow I doubt it. They're barely top 10 domestically, and they're not even on the calendar in the world of UCI Pro Cycling. Hell, even BMC got invites to some European races. 

Rock is a failed experiment. Good try, but they will never be successful and move up in the hierarchy of cycling unless they get their act together, which they will never do because Ball is an idiot of a manager.

And I still don't get what this "pissing off snobs" thing has anything to do with the price of tea in China...


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> And yet again, you deliver results from 2008.
> 
> And his team is top 10 professional teams in 2009? I see fully 34 teams in front of them:


A) We're in 2009...what year am I supposed to compare them to when discussing their performance when they were started in 2007?

B) https://docs.google.com/gview?
a=v&q=cache:GJ9s30gHbaIJ:www.usacycling.org/forms/nrc/nrc_me...&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNEKGa0-BW_ZLxV1VkFuFt7F1x5HGg




> And then there's 6 US pro teams ahead of them:
> 
> 1 COLAVITA OLIVE OIL/SUTTER HOME PRO CYCLING T 2831
> 2 BISSELL PRO CYCLING TEAM 2531
> 3 OUCH P/B MAXXIS 2015
> 4 TEAM TYPE 1 1531
> 5 BMC RACING 1388
> 6 KELLY BENEFIT STRATEGIES 1281
> 7 ROCK RACING 1118


Um yeah...doesn't that place them in the top 10? 

 








> Now...they're the top of the professional world?


Top 10 is "not" good? 






> Rock is a failed experiment. Good try, but they will never be successful and move up in the hierarchy of cycling unless they get their act together, which they will never do because Ball is an idiot of a manager.


What standard are you comparing them to? 

How many teams start out from scratch using recycled riders and end up in the top 10 their first 2 seasons? 

Is this "less" than good? 

Better than average?

For me, a guy who can create a team out of rejects and finish in the top 10 is damn good. 

To have so much hatred flung at him from cycling elitists is even better (& by those who "don't" race professionally is even better than that!). 

 



..........................................................










> And I still don't get what this "pissing off snobs" thing has anything to do with the price of tea in China...


Yep! _You _wouldn't. 

:thumbsup:


----------



## ServingTruth

2ndGen has been drinking some Koolade.  RockBerry Flavored!


----------



## cycledog81

2ndGen said:


> Where'd you get that information from?
> 
> 
> And, are you implying that they "_only_" gave a quarter of a million dollars ($250,000.00) to charity?
> 
> 
> # 1 USA Cycling has no information regarding a rider fund, just call them like I did.
> #2 There is no listing of any 501 non-profit group as Ball implies.
> #3 If this was such a popular idea and he has already started it where is it ?
> #4 No website, no place to send a check to help that goal of $ 20 million.
> #5 Called the Rock Racing # listed for website clothing orders and ask for information
> on contributing to the fund. Got transfered 3X. Finally an assistant to MB
> told me that it was still in the "development stages" Nice !
> #6 250,000 was a pseudo entry/bribe fee for getting into Tour of Georgia in 2008.
> #7 Winning races do not justify screwing over riders and failing to pay them.
> #8 Next time try paying your riders and living up to contracts and commitments.
> #9 Until MB does that, he shouldn't and won't get any respect.


----------



## cycledog81

2ndGen said:


> First question was requesting evidence.
> 
> Second part of my response was being sarcastic (to show how people will judge someone by what they "don't" supposedly do, while completely choosing to ignore what they have "actually done"). Understand?
> 
> So far, all I've seen here is griping and personal insults at a man who's probably done more to benefit someone other than himself than all the haters here combined when it comes to charitable works.
> 
> And why?
> 
> Because he doesn't conform to their idea of how a cycling team should be run, because he doesn't use proper attire, because he gives riders who've made mistakes 2nd chances and probably because he was supposed to have been dead last year (but instead, continue to garner wins, while expanding and branching out into other fields of the sport).
> 
> There are just some people who are going to hate him no matter what he does and completely ignore the good he's done...just like some people just can't stand to see this name typed on these forums "Lance".
> 
> I'll dare say this...the majority of his supporters (including myself) are Road Biking Newbies; Those of us who are too new to be snobs. I'm not saying that if someone hates him the makes them a snob, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of those that hate him have snob tendencies without a doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm looking forward to the evidence that he never established the fund for injured riders (instead of "well, I heard it through the grapevine..."). Even if he never did, he's already given away more money than what most people pay for a home. And that alone is good enough (for those who benefit from his compassion).
> 
> Plus, he angers Road Biking Snobs!
> 
> He should get an award just for that!
> 
> :lol:


The man has no compassion beyond his inflated ego............
Why if your such an rider advocate would you not step up and help his own rider Justin Williams by paying his dental bills when he knock his teeth out will riding for your team in a race ?
Rashaan Bahati his teammate helped him seek donations to a fund to help Justin.
http://www.socalcycling.com/news/2009/july09.asp
Where was Michael Ball ? Spending his time figuring out his next marketing fraud I'm sure.


----------



## 2ndGen

ServingTruth said:


> 2ndGen has been drinking some Koolade.  RockBerry Flavored!


*Better to celebrate a man's successes than to harp on his defeats! 
*
Besides..“A Successful Man is one who can lay a firm foundation from the bricks others have thrown at him.”

*Plus, Kool-Aid tastes far better than BitterBerry! 
*















:lol:


----------



## cycledog81

Total pile of crap. Looks like your only measure of a successful team is winning a few races.
If along the way you end up screwing riders on your team and sponsors I guess that must be just fine in your book.
Winning must be the only benchmark you have.


----------



## LookDave

2ndGen, simple and serious question for you. Forget everything above about bikes, team kit, whether or not Michael Ball is a charity guy or an ego guy. What you have not addressed in your posts are the reports by Rock Racing riders that they are not properly dealt with financially. How will Michael Ball retain current winning racers, or sign new winning racers, with word all over the peloton that race winnings have been withheld from the riders, or that medical expenses may not be covered if you get hurt while racing for the team? 

I don't see how anyone can sustain a winning program, or successful business for that matter, with performance based contracts AND withholding earnings from your winners. 

Please note that Astana, which is very certainly ranked far higher than Rock Racing, and wins at a much higher level of competition than Rock Racing, may lose it's licensing over issues with finances, not paying or delayed paying of riders, etc. And Astana riders, particularly top riders, seem to consistently bail when their contracts are up.

It's not just Rock Racing/Michael Ball where this comes up, so all squabbling about Michael Ball aside, how will this team or any other professional team sustain either winning or credibility when it's riders have this type of problem with team leadership?


----------



## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where'd you get that information from?
> 
> 
> And, are you implying that they "_only_" gave a quarter of a million dollars ($250,000.00) to charity?
> 
> 
> # 1 USA Cycling has no information regarding a rider fund, just call them like I did.
> #2 There is no listing of any 501 non-profit group as Ball implies.
> #3 If this was such a popular idea and he has already started it where is it ?
> #4 No website, no place to send a check to help that goal of $ 20 million.
> #5 Called the Rock Racing # listed for website clothing orders and ask for information
> on contributing to the fund. Got transfered 3X. Finally an assistant to MB
> told me that it was still in the "development stages" Nice !
> #6 250,000 was a pseudo entry/bribe fee for getting into Tour of Georgia in 2008.
> #7 Winning races do not justify screwing over riders and failing to pay them.
> #8 Next time try paying your riders and living up to contracts and commitments.
> #9 Until MB does that, he shouldn't and won't get any respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You actually took the time to call someone to inquire about the Fund?
> [It's amazing what one does out of sheer rage!]
> 
> :lol:
> 
> AND you called Rock Racing too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's rich!
> I wonder what they thought about you!
> Did you tell them about your hatred for them?
> Wow! The hatred it must have took to go through all that trouble!
> Did you congratulate them on their wins while you were at it?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> [hold on, laughing too hard! need to stop typing, making too many mistakes!]
> 
> So, you admit that they gave a quarter of a million dollars to charity then, right?
> 
> I take it you're not upset with his winning races and his giving money to charity and his giving riders who may or may have not messed up in the past 2nd chances, but just with his business practices then, right (if it's true what you're saying)?
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> The man has no compassion beyond his inflated ego............
> Why if your such an rider advocate would you not step up and help his own rider by paying his dental bills when he knock his teeth out will riding for your team in a race ?
> Rashaan Bahati his teammate helped him seek donations to a fund to help Justin.
> http://www.socalcycling.com/news/2009/july09.asp
> Where was Michael Ball ? Spending his time figuring out his next marketing fraud I'm sure.


I don't understand? 

William's teammates give their winnings to help him out and this makes Ball the bad guy? 

Did Ball refuse to pay for William's work? 

Did Ball "not" help pay for it? 

If you can prove this, a link would be nice. 

You do know that you've posted what's knows as "negative evidence", right? 

How is Ball wrong for his team being so right? 

The story there is how great the team is! 

I don't get it.

Please to explain...


----------



## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> Total pile of crap. Looks like your only measure of a successful team is winning a few races.
> If along the way you end up screwing riders on your team and sponsors I guess that must be just fine in your book.
> Winning must be the only benchmark you have.


Who did he screw? 

From what I saw, everything he did was completely legal.

(Unless, you have something that says otherwise.) 

Michael Ball got together a bunch of guys who didn't have gigs, put them to work and created a "successful" team while giving tons of money to charity. 

That cannot be denied and that is success. 

And I only agree with what I've read about them by cycling publications that call Rock Racing successful, so you disagree with me and with people who actually get paid to ride and to be involved in the professional cycling world.


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> A) We're in 2009...what year am I supposed to compare them to when discussing their performance when they were started in 2007?
> 
> B) https://docs.google.com/gview?
> a=v&q=cache:GJ9s30gHbaIJ:www.usacycling.org/forms/nrc/nrc_me...&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNEKGa0-BW_ZLxV1VkFuFt7F1x5HGg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um yeah...doesn't that place them in the top 10?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top 10 is "not" good?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What standard are you comparing them to?
> 
> How many teams start out from scratch using recycled riders and end up in the top 10 their first 2 seasons?
> 
> Is this "less" than good?
> 
> Better than average?
> 
> For me, a guy who can create a team out of rejects and finish in the top 10 is damn good.
> 
> To have so much hatred flung at him from cycling elitists is even better (& by those who "don't" race professionally is even better than that!).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..........................................................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep! _You _wouldn't.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Top of pro cycling is the UCI currently, regardless of your view of it's relevance. Sorry, but US racing is pretty worthless compared to European racing, and you know just as well as I do that every team strives to race the big European races. Ball can't even get a team to a second tier race like Tour of Britain. Being seventh in the NRC rankings sucks. That means there's 34 teams in UCI rankings and 6 more teams that are a hell of a lot better than you. 

And if you want to talk about recent results, talk about 2009. 2008 is so last year.

How many teams start from scratch and end up in top 10? Cervelo Test Team, BMC (remains of Phonak), Sky (will be making a huge impact), Katusha, etc etc.

I reiterate, Ball is a failure, Rock is a failure, and this thread and your defense of them is a failure.


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> Who did he screw?
> 
> From what I saw, everything he did was completely legal.
> 
> (Unless, you have something that says otherwise.)
> 
> Michael Ball got together a bunch of guys who didn't have gigs, put them to work and created a "successful" team while giving tons of money to charity.
> 
> That cannot be denied and that is success.
> 
> And I only agree with what I've read about them by cycling publications that call Rock Racing successful, so you disagree with me and with people who actually get paid to ride and to be involved in the professional cycling world.


http://www.velonews.com/article/86501

Yeah, Ball treats people well, and really does a great job getting his guys into important races.


----------



## 2ndGen

LookDave said:


> 2ndGen, simple and serious question for you. Forget everything above about bikes, team kit, whether or not Michael Ball is a charity guy or an ego guy. What you have not addressed in your posts are the reports by Rock Racing riders that they are not properly dealt with financially. How will Michael Ball retain current winning racers, or sign new winning racers, with word all over the peloton that race winnings have been withheld from the riders, or that medical expenses may not be covered if you get hurt while racing for the team?


Fair enough. 

A) I did address the allegations of his dealings with some of his riders. 

B) How will he continue to keep these riders? Well, he went from putting out his own money to now having partners who are invested with Rock Racing. He must have done something right. From what I've read, his top riders want to stay on. So, either all the gossip is just that...gossip and slander, or he must have the dumbest team or racers in the sport if what the haters say is true and they STILL want to stay on with Rock Racing.

Me? I don't automatically take what I read on forums as doctrinal. 
I not only take what cycling publications write/say (especially those that profit from advertising). 

I take it all in, look at what's in front of me and do the math. 

Late last year, Rock Racing's demise was the celebration of all the haters. 

Wow. Fraid not. Their still here. Still competitive. Still winning and not only are they not going away, but they are expanding. So, who's right? 

And I write this to you with all due respect and not an ounce of sarcasm as I have with the others Dave. 

All Forum Posting B.S. aside, I don't focus on the negative alone nor on the positive alone, but as a whole package in general. 

And based on that, Rock Racing has proved the naysayers wrong. 

They are not only still here (despite the lies being spewed about them last year), but they are growing. 





> I don't see how anyone can sustain a winning program, or successful business for that matter, with performance based contracts AND withholding earnings from your winners.


You'll have no argument from me there. Success in one field doesn't automatically translate to success in another. But, no one can deny that a jean manufacturer is competing successfully after only 2 years. 

And, in my Rock Racing thread, you'll find that I myself have expressed my disagreement with some of his moves (for being inexperienced in managing a cycling team). 

This isn't a seasoned professional or former cycling champion with a herd of sponsors behind him when he started, but an outcast from the get-go who entered a field he had no expertise in. 

He's taking his bumps (paying his dues). He's making mistakes that he doesn't know he's making and he's paid for it. But, his team believes in him. His new business partners believe in him. And his fans believe in him. 

As I've said before, the team just has to be less Ball and more team, but without losing what got them to where they are so fast...him. 





> Please note that Astana, which is very certainly ranked far higher than Rock Racing, and wins at a much higher level of competition than Rock Racing, may lose it's licensing over issues with finances, not paying or delayed paying of riders, etc. And Astana riders, particularly top riders, seem to consistently bail when their contracts are up.


EXACTLY Dave! 

Now, what's keeping RR's team together? 

Maybe nobody else wants Rock Racing's riders (no matter how much they win).
Maybe they want to punish anybody who associates themselves with this "newbie" who entered the racing world on his terms and wins, so the team knows that they have no other place to go. One doesn't have to be a professional cyclist to know what "politics" are. 







> It's not just Rock Racing/Michael Ball where this comes up, so all squabbling about Michael Ball aside, how will this team or any other professional team sustain either winning or credibility when it's riders have this type of problem with team leadership?[


Again, you're preaching to the choir. 

I've said it before, he needs to be more hands off now that the team is underway and I could see RR climbing to the top 5 consistently and attracting riders who don't care about politics, but who care about winning. 

Michael Ball is a fashion mogul. He is not a pro cycling team manager (though he is a pro cycling team owner). Hopefully, if he hasn't already, he'll bring someone in to take over. 

(Thank you for allowing me to make "some" sense Dave with your reasonable post even if you disagree with me.  )


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> http://www.velonews.com/article/86501
> 
> Yeah, Ball treats people well, and really does a great job getting his guys into important races.



Promises are not contracts. In business, contracts are the only thing that matters.

You can agree to something, but when it all comes down to it, what is on paper is all that matters. There's a reason for that. ANYTHING can happen between the beginning of the relationship and the end of the relationship...the contract is there to remind everyone of what is agreed to. 

For example, a soldier cannot complain that he's unemployed just because there is no war on at the moment. Michael Ball does not control the racing world. He's been fighting the professional racing circuit all the way up (they seem to make things especially difficult on him). They don't want him in the racing world. 

Anyway, any good rider will get picked up if they walk away from a team or are cut.
The last thing a man should do is whine about it. 
Prove something...race and win.

Let your trophies do the talking.


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> ...gossip and slander, or he must have the dumbest team or racers in the sport if what the haters say is true and they STILL want to stay on with Rock Racing...
> 
> ...Maybe nobody else wants Rock Racing's riders (no matter how much they win)...
> 
> ...I've said it before, he needs to be more hands off now that the team is underway and I could see RR climbing to the top 5 consistently and attracting riders who don't care about politics, but who care about winning...


Nobody wants them, because of their past, so they have no career but to stay with Rock.

As I said above, you're damn right.

You can't attract riders who care about winning when you're not racing any races that are worth a damn. If you want to matter, you race (all together now) IN EUROPE! Oh man, their appearances in the Giro and Tour were AMAZING!

Wait...

No.


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> Promises are not contracts. In business, contracts are the only thing that matters.
> 
> You can agree to something, but when it all comes down to it, what is on paper is all that matters. There's a reason for that. ANYTHING can happen between the beginning of the relationship and the end of the relationship...the contract is there to remind everyone of what is agreed to.
> 
> For example, a soldier cannot complain that he's unemployed just because there is no war on at the moment. Michael Ball does not control the racing world. He's been fighting the professional racing circuit all the way up (they seem to make things especially difficult on him). They don't want him in the racing world.
> 
> Anyway, any good rider will get picked up if they walk away from a team or are cut.
> The last thing a man should do is whine about it.
> Prove something...race and win.
> 
> Let your trophies do the talking.


Considering Ball had a signed contract from a rider and then reneged on it. Cooke was very curious about why his (signed) contract was not honoured. Pretty simple request. 

Racing and winning is NOT the end all be all of cycling. Hate to tell you. Ask Astana.


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> Top of pro cycling is the UCI currently, regardless of your view of it's relevance. Sorry, but US racing is pretty worthless compared to European racing, and you know just as well as I do that every team strives to race the big European races.


SNOBBED!

:lol:






> Ball can't even get a team to a second tier race like Tour of Britain. Being seventh in the NRC rankings sucks. That means there's 34 teams in UCI rankings and 6 more teams that are a hell of a lot better than you.
> 
> And if you want to talk about recent results, talk about 2009. 2008 is so last year.
> 
> How many teams start from scratch and end up in top 10? Cervelo Test Team, BMC (remains of Phonak), Sky (will be making a huge impact), Katusha, etc etc.
> 
> I reiterate, Ball is a failure, Rock is a failure, and this thread and your defense of them is a failure.


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> Considering Ball had a signed contract from a rider and then reneged on it. Cooke was very curious about why his (signed) contract was not honoured. Pretty simple request.
> 
> Racing and winning is NOT the end all be all of cycling. Hate to tell you. Ask Astana.


Well, Ball didn't want him for some reason...is Cooke riding today?

Is he winning today?

Ball is winning.

Racing and winning is not the end all be all of cycling? 

Tell that to Lance!

:thumbsup:

“To all the cynics, I'm sorry for you, ... 
I'm sorry you can't believe in miracles. 
This is a great sporting event and hard work wins it.”

_Lance Armstrong_


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> Well, Ball didn't want him for some reason...is Cooke riding today?
> 
> Is he winning today?
> 
> Ball is winning.
> 
> Racing and winning is not the end all be all of cycling?
> 
> Tell that to Lance!
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> “To all the cynics, I'm sorry for you, ...
> I'm sorry you can't believe in miracles.
> This is a great sporting event and hard work wins it.”
> 
> _Lance Armstrong_





> Baden Cooke (born Benalla, Victoria, 12 October 1978) is an Australian professional racing cyclist for UCI Professional Continental team Vacansoleil. In 2010 he will race for Pro Tour squad Team Saxo Bank on a one year contract.


Wow, he moved way the hell up from a crappy team like Rock to a UCI continental team, and now to a UCI protour team. I'd say that's a damn good upgrade.

As for winning...

Yes, tell that to Lance, who has raised more money for cancer and done more humanitarian acts than any of us will ever hope to do in our lives.

Lance's legacy is just as much his foundation as his seven Tour wins. Don't kid yourself.


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> Nobody wants them, because of their past, so they have no career but to stay with Rock.
> 
> As I said above, you're damn right.


Yep! 

And some of them win at Rock Racing! 

:thumbsup: 






> You can't attract riders who care about winning when *you're not racing any races that are worth a damn*. .


Wait, now I'm confused... 

Whatever happend to "Racing and winning is NOT the end all be all of cycling."?




> If you want to matter, you race (all together now) IN EUROPE! Oh man, their appearances in the Giro and Tour were AMAZING!



SNOBBED AGAIN!


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> Wow, he moved way the hell up from a crappy team like Rock to a UCI continental team, and now to a UCI protour team. I'd say that's a damn good upgrade.
> 
> As for winning...
> 
> Yes, tell that to Lance, who has raised more money for cancer and done more humanitarian acts than any of us will ever hope to do in our lives.
> 
> Lance's legacy is just as much his foundation as his seven Tour wins. Don't kid yourself.


Now you're going to compare a start-up team to an established professional? 

Diversion..won't work! :lol:

Get back over "here" and let's stick to Ball and how Lance's quote applies to your attitude 
(which I'm still trying to figure out since you've already flip-flopped once! :lol: )

And, while we're comparing how much who has raised...what's your tally? 

:lol:


----------



## cycledog81

The salaries and prize money he still owes riders from 2008 are real. Nothing fabricated here.
Ask Baldwin, Creed, Grajales how much salary and prize money they are owed. 
Promises broken by MB, but no worries he didn't put in writing so no easy out for him.
After all your word and promises are as only good if you ever intended to put them in a contract. Which now, is obvious that how he does buisness. 
Ask Steve Hed of Hed Wheels what kind of great guy Ball is after failing to live up to a CONTRACT.
Ask Scott Montgomery at Scott Bicycles if he would ever do buisness with Michael Ball again.
I'm sure this is just a grand conspiracy to beat old Michael Ball into the ground.
Wake up to reality, this guy has burned a million bridges with lies and broken promises.
Please don't preach about his winning teams and he is going to do this and that.
He wants to impress people ? try paying your riders from 2008 what you owe them !


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> Now you're going to compare a start-up team to an established professional?
> 
> Diversion..won't work! :lol:
> 
> Get back over "here" and let's stick to Ball and how Lance's quote applies to your attitude
> (which I'm still trying to figure out since you've already flip-flopped once! :lol: )
> 
> And, while we're comparing how much who has raised...what's your tally?
> 
> :lol:


It was YOUR quote that winning was everything. So, playing by your standards, Rock is a failure for not winning any race worth a damn.

My comment is that winning isn't everything, so thereby I judge not only on their poor race results, but the way Ball has shafted his partners, riders and his sponsors. 

Your move, Kasparov.


----------



## Fredke

2ndGen said:


> Promises are not contracts. In business, contracts are the only thing that matters.


Therefore, until we see legal documentation that the catstrophic injuries fund exists, we will apply your standards to Ball's (empty) promise that he will create it.

Until there is a 501(c)(3) filing or other legally binding document, we have your agreement that press releases and other non-binding promises from Michael Ball are worthless. 

Personally, I think this is all too bad. When Ball got started, I thought it would be fun to have his hijinks in the peloton, and that he might do cycling a lot of good by bringing new blood and broadening the fan base demographic to kids who have very little in common with me and most of the RBR crowd. I'd be very happy for anything that would build cycling in the U.S., even if you'd never catch me dead in R&R fanboi kit (it's way too masculine for my taste, FWIW :blush2: ).

I also thought it was very cool that Bahati won USPRO crits last year.

But fact is, as much as I'd like to cheer R&R, Ball has indeed been a tool and the bad blood and broken promises he's leaving in his wake are not good for cycling.


----------



## 2ndGen

cycledog81 said:


> The salaries and prize money he still owes riders from 2008 are real. Nothing fabricated here.


Ok. If nothing's fabricated...post it. 

Just refer me to the same sites or publications you're getting your information from.


----------



## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> It was YOUR quote that winning was everything.


I never said that winning was everything...you (well, at least first you did) said that winning wasn't everything, then you suggest that winning in only certain races (in Europe?) count.















> So, playing by your standards, Rock is a failure for not winning any race worth a damn.


Failure? 
By "who's" standards? 
To professional cycling media, he's had a successful season (again).
But, I guess your standards are different than theirs. 
Now, what's that you said about playing by someone's standards?
:lol:





> My comment is that *winning isn't everything*,


And I quote...
"Racing and *winning is NOT the end all be all *of cycling."

*everything*
Synonyms:
aggregate, *all, all in all, all that, all things*, business, complex, each thing, every little thing, fixins', lock stock and barrel, lot, many things, sum, the works, total, universe, whole, whole ball of wax, whole caboodle, whole enchilada, whole lot, whole shebang

You're right...how could I have gotten what you said so confused.


----------



## 2ndGen

Fredke said:


> Therefore, until we see legal documentation that the catstrophic injuries fund exists, we will apply your standards to Ball's (empty) promise that he will create it.


Fair enough. 

And, we will accept that he's contributed a quarter of a million dollars to helping children with cancer (according to the standards we both accept as well). 







> Until there is a 501(c)(3) filing or other legally binding document, we have your agreement that press releases and other non-binding promises from Michael Ball are worthless.


Do you have documentation of everything you read and believe? 

Does that make it worthless also (including the allegations that he "didn't" start the fund)?

Swings both ways! So, that's very agreeable. 







> Personally, I think this is all too bad. When Ball got started, I thought it would be fun to have his hijinks in the peloton, and that he might do cycling a lot of good by bringing new blood and broadening the fan base demographic to kids who have very little in common with me and most of the RBR crowd. I'd be very happy for anything that would build cycling in the U.S., even if you'd never catch me dead in R&R fanboi kit (it's way too masculine for my taste, FWIW :blush2: ).


:lol: (@ fanboi comment)

I honestly never believed he would attract any fans into the sport at all.
I think cycling wouldn't be broadened to those who purchase R&R jeans/gear. 
Granted, I'm being prejudiced here, but I just don't see them rushing to appreciate or like cycling just because Ball got into it. 

I think he did it because he at some point got snubbed and in the spirit of other Entrepreneurs with time and money (Richard Branson, Larry Ellison, etc...), he said "I'll show them!" And nobody can deny he showed them. He started a team that's considered successful by racing professionals (if not by the haters) and has survived his first year without any major sponsors. Now, he's got co-sponsors. 











> I also thought it was very cool that Bahati won USPRO crits last year.


It's been said that Ball's toning down the team a lot and dumping all the fanfare surrounding the events they attend. 

Again, I'm hoping he decreases so that they can increase (they being the productive team members). He's got to let his child walk on it's own. 








> But fact is, as much as I'd like to cheer R&R, Ball has indeed been a tool and the bad blood and broken promises he's leaving in his wake are not good for cycling.


I think that his actions won't affect how other's look at the actual team. 
It looks like in spite of the Ball hatred, the team is popular still. 

Ball is not a cycling professional so he's not going to please the snobs in the profession. 

I want the concept of the team to succeed.


----------



## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> I never said that winning was everything...you (well, at least first you did) said that winning wasn't everything, then you suggest that winning in only certain races (in Europe?) count.
> 
> You really are clueless aren't you.
> 
> Your own posts prove your point:
> 
> 
> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> See, I don't get that.
> 
> People say he's full of it, even though his team wins races.
> What's your definition of success if competing and winning isn't?
> 
> *snip*
> 
> And, it looks like it's paid off. His team wins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2ndGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Promises are not contracts. In business, contracts are the only thing that matters.
> 
> You can agree to something, but when it all comes down to it, what is on paper is all that matters. There's a reason for that. ANYTHING can happen between the beginning of the relationship and the end of the relationship...the contract is there to remind everyone of what is agreed to.
> 
> For example, a soldier cannot complain that he's unemployed just because there is no war on at the moment. Michael Ball does not control the racing world. He's been fighting the professional racing circuit all the way up (they seem to make things especially difficult on him). They don't want him in the racing world.
> 
> Anyway, any good rider will get picked up if they walk away from a team or are cut.
> The last thing a man should do is whine about it.
> Prove something...race and win.
> 
> Let your trophies do the talking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is abundantly clear that you care NOTHING of anything except race results. That being the case, then put up or shut up: where are their UCI results. If race results count, then why aren't they winning the races that the world cares about? (Hint, it's NOT the NRC calendar.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Failure?
> By "who's" standards?
> To professional cycling media, he's had a successful season (again).
> But, I guess your standards are different than theirs.
> Now, what's that you said about playing by someone's standards?
> :lol:
> 
> Now you keep talking about "professional cycling media", yet you've not posted a single shred of evidence by "professional cycling media" about his "successful" season. So howabout it, Homer. You got anything to put up? Or are you going with the other option?
> 
> 
> 
> And I quote...
> "Racing and *winning is NOT the end all be all *of cycling."
> 
> *everything*
> Synonyms:
> aggregate, *all, all in all, all that, all things*, business, complex, each thing, every little thing, fixins', lock stock and barrel, lot, many things, sum, the works, total, universe, whole, whole ball of wax, whole caboodle, whole enchilada, whole lot, whole shebang
> 
> You're right...how could I have gotten what you said so confused.
> 
> And you proved my point by adding synonyms of "end all be all" for everyone to peruse. Congratulations, you know how to use google. Maybe you can figure out where those "professional cycling media" articles are.
> 
> Oh yes, and I'm still right: Racing isn't everything. Their results suck, and their management sucks. That's a complete package of fail. By your standards of "they're winning, that's all that matters", they still suck, since they aren't winning any important races.
Click to expand...

See above. Perhaps your reading comprehension is better as the evening wears on.


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## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> I think that his actions won't affect how other's look at the actual team.
> It looks like in spite of the Ball hatred, the team is popular still.
> 
> Ball is not a cycling professional so he's not going to please the snobs in the profession.


You're daft if you don't think his actions reflect on the team. Every manager reflects upon the team they manage.

You've still not even explained what the hell this "snob" thing is. I've never seen a guy on a Colnago sipping Pinot and eating Beluga on wafers.


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## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> You're daft if you don't think his actions reflect on the team. Every manager reflects upon the team they manage.
> 
> You've still not even explained what the hell this "snob" thing is. I've never seen a guy on a Colnago sipping Pinot and eating Beluga on wafers.


So, what does it say of a manager who's team wins?

:lol:


: confused : is right...


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## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> So, what does it say of a manager who's team wins?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> : confused : is right...


It says he screws his riders, his sponsors and his suppliers. Great team image. "Ride for us so you get nothing, no matter how much work you put in."

But that doesn't matter to you, because winning is everything.





And I notice how you conveniently ignored my other points. Another fail on your scorecard.


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## 2ndGen

robdamanii said:


> It says he screws his riders, his sponsors and his suppliers. Great team image. "Ride for us so you get nothing, no matter how much work you put in."
> 
> But that doesn't matter to you, because winning is everything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I notice how you conveniently ignored my other points. Another fail on your scorecard.


More "allegations"...no proof. 

As difficult as it might be for you to accept (and I really am sorry), 
not "everything" you say interests me. 

Honestly, how old are you? Like 27 or something? 

:lol:










Sometimes I get drawn into discussions with flamers and before I know it, 
my time is being stolen by them! :lol:

I'm just not as forum savvy as they are and (to quote Al Pacino):


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## 2ndGen




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## robdamanii

2ndGen said:


> More "allegations"...no proof.


I've seen no proof from "professional cycling media" that Rock Racing has been "successful" either. So your attempt at discrediting my comments is an abysmal failure, while there are documented cases of Ball screwing his riders. 

Obviously, you choose to ignore those cases and focus on NRC wins. HAH! Another fail.


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## LookDave

2ndGen, I'd suggest the possibility that the team's popularity has declined substantially. Purely annecdotal evidence: I attended 2008 Tour of California final stage in Pasadena. Nasty weather, much lower than expected crowd. But the Rock Racing display/tent was mobbed. Huge interest. They were generating enormous "buzz" at that point. Fast forward - 2009 Tour of CA final stage in Escondido. Perfect weather, HUGE crowd. And 3 or 4 people at a time stopping at Rock Racing display tent. Lots more people stopped at the much smaller Jelly Belly Team display, where they were handing out Jelly Belly Sports Beans.

You say you don't follow cycle racing, so please forgive following if this is history you know. Cycling history has a number of now revered riders who were brash, in your face, initially ticked off some cycling purists (don't know if that's the same as snob, but probably so). Bernard Hinault. Eddy Merckx. Mario Cipollini. Cipollini wore some kit at races that was every bit as over the top as anything Rock has put out, knowing he would be fined for it and happily paying the fines. But here's the difference - the aggressive, in your face, brash presentation was about the RIDERS, not the team owner. It was about those racers delivering the goods, not over a flash in the pan year or two. Each of those guys had long, enormously successful winning careers, with more individual wins (at the biggest races!!!) than during the history of many entire teams. 

By the way, I'm a cycling purist who thinks it's really great that Rock Racing had Mario Cipollini racing at the Tour of CA in 2008. Only time I got to see him race in person. Far, far past his prime, and obviously on the team for the hype, but I'm a purist/snob who was jazzed to see the guy ride. A genuine piece of big time cycling history. And I appreciate that Ball provided that opportunity. I also got enormous enjoyment from seeing videos of the Rock Racing girls around the Escalades, looking bored to tears and just wanting to get out of the weather, turn into giggling hormone struck junior high girls when Mario walked by. THEY knew where the real flash and hype belonged!

The issue, again, is that the bottom line of successful winning racing over the long term, not flash in the pan, on having an influence on the sport and fans, is treating your riders well. The accusations of non-payment of winnings, of jerking people around on completing contract signing, is coming from the riders themselves. This isn't a court. This isn't innocent until proven guilty. And from what I can tell, Rock and Ball are strangely silent on those very public rider accusations, which if untrue could likely be considered libel. Such accusations are NOT standard fare for successful cycling teams. This is very bad for the long term business of signing winning riders. Riders with a choice will not sign with a team where financial livelihood is in serious question. Riders who are hanging on, at the end of their careers or not talented enough to really ever build a winning career, maybe will sign. The team wins will decrease, and the "in your face, pi$$ off the bike snobs" niche that Ball seems to play to will become no more than a sad curiosity, leading to rapid extinction.

If filling that flashy hype, in your face, year or two of success, than decline into curiosity before extinction niche is OK with Ball, then fine. Might be precisely his "business" model for the team; I certainly don't know. All depends on whether the focus is on the short run or the long run. Looks kinda short to me.


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## 2ndGen

LookDave said:


> 2ndGen, I'd suggest the possibility that the team's popularity has declined substantially. Purely annecdotal evidence: I attended 2008 Tour of California final stage in Pasadena. Nasty weather, much lower than expected crowd. But the Rock Racing display/tent was mobbed. Huge interest. They were generating enormous "buzz" at that point. Fast forward - 2009 Tour of CA final stage in Escondido. Perfect weather, HUGE crowd. And 3 or 4 people at a time stopping at Rock Racing display tent. Lots more people stopped at the much smaller Jelly Belly Team display, where they were handing out Jelly Belly Sports Beans.


What I've seen is that they've gotten more respect from pro riders (even if they lost "fans"). 
The fact that they toned themselves down a lot now is definitely noticable. 

As for few people stopping at their tent, I think that chimes in with what I've been saying all along. I don't think that they are the team for hard core cyclists, but more for wannabe's like me. 

(O/T: Escondido...beautiful place. I used to live there.) 





> You say you don't follow cycle racing, so please forgive following if this is history you know. Cycling history has a number of now revered riders who were brash, in your face, initially ticked off some cycling purists (don't know if that's the same as snob, but probably so). Bernard Hinault. Eddy Merckx. Mario Cipollini. Cipollini wore some kit at races that was every bit as over the top as anything Rock has put out, knowing he would be fined for it and happily paying the fines. But here's the difference - the aggressive, in your face, brash presentation was about the RIDERS, not the team owner. It was about those racers delivering the goods, not over a flash in the pan year or two. Each of those guys had long, enormously successful winning careers, with more individual wins (at the biggest races!!!) than during the history of many entire teams.


A) Thank you for taking the time to tell me that. Really. I appreciate it. I always appreciate an education. 

B) I agree with you on the fashion statement stuff. Again, I'd like to see them strip their kits down to matte black and then tack on graphics as they win. 

It's kind of like working construction. You get your hard hat. You go through some training. You get a sticker to show that you've completed that training (usually, safety oriented). The guys who've been there the longest have the hats with the most stickers. The Newbs have bright and shiny hats with a couple of stickers. 






> By the way, I'm a cycling purist who thinks it's really great that Rock Racing had Mario Cipollini racing at the Tour of CA in 2008. Only time I got to see him race in person. Far, far past his prime, and obviously on the team for the hype, but I'm a purist/snob who was jazzed to see the guy ride. A genuine piece of big time cycling history. And I appreciate that Ball provided that opportunity. I also got enormous enjoyment from seeing videos of the Rock Racing girls around the Escalades, looking bored to tears and just wanting to get out of the weather, turn into giggling hormone struck junior high girls when Mario walked by. THEY knew where the real flash and hype belonged!


Actually, I don't see an ounce of snob in you at all. 

And me? I'm not a flashy person myself (I still haven't even gotten myself a real road biking jersey [using nice MTB jerseys though] until I can really ride some big miles with a solid upper teen/lower 20's mph/avg).

But, it's definitely hot what Ball's done with the team (trailer, nice rides, gear, etc...).

Judging from what I've read, it seems that his bikes will be priced at reasonably affordable prices. THAT I'd love to see and it's said that their going to be Pro quality bikes. 





> The issue, again, is that the bottom line of successful winning racing over the long term, not flash in the pan, on having an influence on the sport and fans, is treating your riders well. The accusations of non-payment of winnings, of jerking people around on completing contract signing, is coming from the riders themselves. This isn't a court. This isn't innocent until proven guilty. And from what I can tell, Rock and Ball are strangely silent on those very public rider accusations, which if untrue could likely be considered libel. Such accusations are NOT standard fare for successful cycling teams. This is very bad for the long term business of signing winning riders. Riders with a choice will not sign with a team where financial livelihood is in serious question. Riders who are hanging on, at the end of their careers or not talented enough to really ever build a winning career, maybe will sign. The team wins will decrease, and the "in your face, pi$$ off the bike snobs" niche that Ball seems to play to will become no more than a sad curiosity, leading to rapid extinction.


I'm a businessman. I'm biased. I know that when there are discrepancies between two parties, it's wise to remain silent whether guilty or not until the facts are presented and the truth comes out. 

If I had seen something other than allegations by RR Haters or disgruntled former riders (not saying their "not" justified in their feelings), then I could understand. 

I judge a person not only by those that like him but by those that hate them. 
If those that speak well of him are decent folk and those that despise him are pricks (and vice/versa), then I have to reserve judgement until I know all the facts for myself. 

And again, from day one of my own thread, I've said that he needs to decrease so that RR can increase. He's already proven whatever it was that he set out to prove. 

I predict that this upcoming season, Rock Racing will have their best year. 
I predict that Michael Ball will "let go" of the reigns a bit to others 
(a bad trait of entrepreneurs is trusting others with your business). 
I predict that Rock Racing will continue at least one more year. 
I predict that they will attract more good riders as the team matures. 

If I were a team owner with that money, I'd give my team of established riders freedom to do things there way under the guidance of a good manager. I'd totally just lay back in the cut and let nature take its course. But I'd also jump up to defend my team when needed to. 






> If filling that flashy hype, in your face, year or two of success, than decline into curiosity before extinction niche is OK with Ball, then fine. Might be precisely his "business" model for the team; I certainly don't know. All depends on whether the focus is on the short run or the long run. Looks kinda short to me.


In my honest opinion? I believe that he set out to start a team "just" to rile some people up. Then, he became a victim of his own success (literally) and it (as it happens in successful upstarts) grew too fast.

So, he had to take a year to adjust and deal with the issues that came up. 

There was a great line in a movie I saw once (Jerry McGuire) that went something this: 
"It's not "show friends." It's show *business*. 
Bob Sugar


----------



## zoikz

Ball has been really good as stirring controversy, which can be good. Just look at this post and you'll see how deep these passions run.
I don't see great things in RR future. And his putting out a line of bikes, wheels, components, sports drinks etc... may be the nail in the coffin. Getting back to the origin of the post, I think these are really him trying to force a market strategy that is just not going to work. He's running out of money and I think he's going to lose more. 
Despite some great success RR ranked 14th in the US Pro Cycling Tour. Next year he has a smaller budget and he's going to hurt. Losing Tyler to drugs, and firing well respected riders under the guise of lack of performance but in reality due to financial problems (Ball's own admission) will really hurt. Coupled with a lack of experienced leadership and things don't look good. If he had kept Frankie Andreu things may have been different. 
I saw the same thing at Tour of Cali the last 2 years. It was unbelievable the amount of fanfare around them 2 years ago. They were everywhere and everyone wanted a piece of their action. Since then they have been a hodgepodge of gear, riders and staff walking around team hotels hardly interacting with the other teams. I didn't see near the esprit de core that teams like Jelly Belly, Bissell, and others had.


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## LookDave

2ndGen said:


> I predict that this upcoming season, Rock Racing will have their best year.
> I predict that Michael Ball will "let go" of the reigns a bit to others
> (a bad trait of entrepreneurs is trusting others with your business).
> I predict that Rock Racing will continue at least one more year.
> I predict that they will attract more good riders as the team matures.


Hope you're right. Personally, I'd prefer it if Ball sells the team and disappears (wishful and unrealistic thinking, particularly in this economy), or at least becomes a silent owner, but would like to see the team stay. Not enough professional teams in USA, so not enough professional rides for a lot of very talented riders. Obviously a tough time financially for cycling, just like everything else with razor thin margins - I hate to see any pro team here fold, no matter how ridiculous or (perhaps?) unethical I think the owner is. Ball would do well to hire some real cycling folks to actually run things day to day, and as you said give them the freedom to do so. Fine if they're also edgy folks who buck the norm, so long as they are professionals who know what they're doing. Frankly, don't know if he's psychologically capable of doing that...we'll see.

There's another bad trait of too many start up entrepreneurs - assuming that your successful model in one business start up will work in another, then not recognizing and not shifting course when that's wrong, until the new gig has been driven at high speed into a bridge abutment. Shouldn't take too long to find out if that's the case here. Again, hope I'm wrong, for the riders' sake.


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## mtymxdh

Hi, 2ndGen, just a question, dont want to start the "flame war" nor anything else:

If you like Rock Racing that much, why you have the Trek logo in your avatar?

don't a R&R skull be better?


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## 2ndGen

mtymxdh said:


> Hi, 2ndGen, just a question, dont want to start the "flame war" nor anything else:
> 
> If you like Rock Racing that much, why you have the Trek logo in your avatar?
> 
> don't a R&R skull be better?


:lol:

Good question! 

Actually, I did have the R&R logo in my avatar just last week. 
Really, the only reason I did that was to temporarily engage a couple of haters here.
But, then I saw how doing something just for that reason was immature, so I took it out. 
Before the R&R logo, I had a stock photo of my bike.


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## spade2you

Didn't have time to read the entire thread, but do you suppose the chain has a Rock Racing logo on each link? I mean, there aren't enough Rock Racing logos on the bike, components, or wheels.......


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## cbuchanan

What about the proposed price of the bikes? Has that question been answered yet?

I'm just curious.


----------



## 2ndGen

spade2you said:


> Didn't have time to read the entire thread, but do you suppose the chain has a Rock Racing logo on each link? I mean, there aren't enough Rock Racing logos on the bike, components, or wheels.......


I hope the bike (when released) will have several versions...some way more laid back as far as graphics go. 

If they release it as is, only hardcore RR fans will buy it, but if they offer options, they'll leave themselves open to more buyers.

Ultimately, I'd like to believe that if it is a good bike and value, people will buy it because of that more than anything else. To buy it "just because" it's a RR bike?  

They shouldn't release a RR branded bike until they have a GREAT season and they win on that particular bike. But, let's see what happens.


----------



## 2ndGen

cbuchanan said:


> What about the proposed price of the bikes? Has that question been answered yet?
> 
> I'm just curious.


Ball said that it was supposed to bring Pro caliber bikes to everyone.

To me, meaning that they would be relatively affordable and affordable for a Pro caliber race bike would mean in the $3K range for an entry level bike.

But, I'm just basing that on what I think is reasonable for a race bike for an amateur. 
They could be cheaper, they could be significantly more.

I'm sure someone will jump in and enlighten me as to what is "reasonable" generally speaking 
in 5, 4, 3, 2...


:lol:


----------



## mtymxdh

2ndGen said:


> :lol:
> 
> Good question!
> 
> Actually, I did have the R&R logo in my avatar just last week.
> Really, the only reason I did that was to temporarily engage a couple of haters here.
> But, then I saw how doing something just for that reason was immature, so I took it out.
> Before the R&R logo, I had a stock photo of my bike.





Ok now I get it...


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## 2ndGen

Something is stirring up at the Rock Racing Website...

www.RockRacing.com

(pics of bike up?)


Prices(?): https://roadbuyersguide.net/search.php


Some one mentioned how RR's bike looked a lot like Fuji's? 
They have the same designer (who also designed RR's Kestrels).


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## mikeharper123

I saw that they weren't granted a USPRO license yet.....trouble on the horizon...


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## robdamanii

mikeharper123 said:


> I saw that they weren't granted a USPRO license yet.....trouble on the horizon...


You expected them to actually get one?


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## untoothedyouth

At this point not much surprises me with this team.


----------

