# Zipp 303 vs. 404



## yz_387 (Aug 4, 2005)

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on first set of tubular wheels. Due to the shop I deal with and team sponsorship, I am planning on going with Zipp, but i am having a hard time deciding between the 303 and 404. I originally thought I wanted the 404, but after talking with the shop owner and my team captain, I am now wondering if the 303 might be a better choice. I know I could go with the 343 combo, but I don't care for the look of mismatched wheels (yes, I'm that vein).

About me: I am 5'8" 150 lbs and race in cat 4 (hopefully cat 3 by mid 2011). I am a far better sprinter than time trialist and race in Michigan (no mountains, just short steep climbs.) I do race cross in the fall, and may decide to glue up a set of cross tires on these wheels, but their primary purpose will be road races and crits.

So for anyone who has ridden both wheels, how do they compare? How noticeable is the extra aero advantage of the 404 when on the front? How noticeable is the weight advantage of the 303 in a sprint or climb?


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I have a set of 2007 303 Tubulars and also have 303 and 404 clinchers. The tubulars aren't my favorites, they seem less stiff than the comparable clinchers, but I know that the later rim designs may have made them more stiff. As to the aero difference between a 303 and 404, the nod would go to the 404s, but my favorite combination is a 303 front and 404 rear. Where I live, we have a fair amount of wind and the 404s can sometime be a handful, but I haven't had that experience when using a 303/404 combination. If I were you, I'd probably go with the 404s as they aren't that much heavier than a current 303, but would have some aero advantage.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Not a Zipp hater, but Enve makes some pretty killer stuff, especially for the price. You could always go with a 68 in back and a 45 up front.


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## fa63 (Aug 16, 2007)

yz_387 said:


> I originally thought I wanted the 404, but after talking with the shop owner and my team captain, I am now wondering if the 303 might be a better choice.


What reasons did they give you for this?


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## dominicisi (Oct 21, 2009)

I am a long time Zipp rider and because I work at a shop I've had the opportunity to ride both 303 and 404 tubulars. I've ridden 20+ races on 404s and about a half dozen on the 303s. This proportion does not reflects my affinity for the different wheels, just the types of races I ride.

Some points.
I need to say I run 21s on the 404s and 25s on the 303s due to their wider tire bed. Because of this difference, the weight difference is almost negated due to the heavier 25mm. 

Even if i ran the same tires, the weight difference in the wheels is entirely at the rim, which is only slight over 50g a wheel. As far as weight going up a mountain, that amounts to a total of 4 oz different. I haven't noticed any noticeably snappier acceleration from the 303s compared to the 404s in that respect. So I don't really think the loss of aero for weight is worth it. That is not to say that I have angles pushing me along when i'm riding the 404s, but comparing wattage to speed on my garmin, there is just barely a statistically significant difference between the sets of wheels. Nothing crazy.

But where I think the true difference, and important difference comes out is in durability and the wider tire bed of the 303s. 
The fact that the tire bed is wider, they are going to be a lot more friendly to you running cross tubbies on them as well as just being more durable in general. There is a reason people use them at Paris Roubaix. For cross, I've borrowed a friend's cross 404s (24 spokes front and rear) as well as running my 303s with the same tires and the only difference was in the harshness of landings. The 404s felt rougher than the 303s but they also have a higher spoke count to account for that. I didn't notice any speed or effort differences between the two.

FWIW i'm 6'1" 170lbs cat 3 soon cat 2 (hopefully)


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Sounds like the 303 is going to be a much better wheelset if you're looking to mount some cross tubs on them. 

Also seems like it would fit your requirements better than the 404s as an all purpose set.


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## wetpaint (Oct 12, 2008)

With the little wind we have here in Michigan and no mountains, 404s are probably the way to go. There are quite a few people that race 808s without a problem.

I race on 50mm deep wheels without problems at 140 pounds.


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## iridepinarello (Feb 22, 2009)

I've had them both, and got sold the 404's. The 303's are ideal for me.


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## yz_387 (Aug 4, 2005)

cdhbrad said:


> The tubulars aren't my favorites, they seem less stiff than the comparable clinchers, but I know that the later rim designs may have made them more stiff.


Interesting, I have never heard that before... are you comparing clinchers and tubulars of the same year, or different models?


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## yz_387 (Aug 4, 2005)

dominicisi said:


> The fact that the tire bed is wider, they are going to be a lot more friendly to you running cross tubbies on them as well as just being more durable in general.


With Zipp listing new new 404 at 27mm wide, do you still believe this is true?

Thanks for the post; lots of useful info.


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## yz_387 (Aug 4, 2005)

iridepinarello said:


> I've had them both, and got sold the 404's. The 303's are ideal for me.


Interesting..... Care to elaborate?


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

HED Stinger 6.


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