# Too Short for a 585 Optimum Elle XS



## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

*Too Short for a 585 Optimum Elle XS?*

First, I'm a guy and I know the Elle is a women's bike...but I have found a '09 model that doesn't look too "girly" to me. My real concern is that the top tube at 50.9 is a bit long. I'm 5'4.5 and have 30" arms. My current bike has a TT of 50.5 and with a 100mm stem I am stretched out plenty and that includes a seat post with no setback and the saddle pushed almost all the way forward. Also it appears the headtube on the 585 may only be a millimeter longer than my current bike at most. 

I've always liked these bikes and I guess I'm sort of trying to talk myself into thinking/hoping it will fit. Is there anything I'm missing or is there a chance that there is some inherent aspect of the frame that may make them fit on the smaller side...even though the math doesn't seem to indicate so. The only big difference between my current bike and the Look is that my seat tube is 49 C-C and the ST on the Look is 44 C-C. That will give me less stand over but I can't see anyway that would impact reach. By the way, LOOK doesn't provide Reach or Stack dimensions anywhere and that is a real oversight from my perspective. Knowing reach on the XS frame would help me a lot.

Thanks folks.


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## OrenPerets (Feb 22, 2006)

TT length does not tell you the whole story; you should consider the ST angle when looking at tt length. each Degree effectively lengthens the TT by ~ 1 Cm.
so, if the current bike has an ST angle of, say, 75 degrees while the look has 74.5, than effectively the look TT is 0.5 cm shorter than the stated length (from 509 to 504).

Rule is - the steeper the ST, the longer the TT is effectively, and by 1Cm per degree.

hope i fits well 

ORen


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## BrunoLuong (Sep 28, 2013)

The reach depends on - 3 parameter on the frames horizontal TT length (50.9 on 585 elle) ST angle (sta=74.5) HT angle (hta=71) - stem geometry, mainly length (sl) and angle - height of the seapost (hst) - height of the stem (hs) distance between saddle tip and center of the seatube (d), backforth of saddle Here is an example of mine (595 S-size) TT = 53 (cm) hts = 15 (cm) hs = 8 (cm) d = 14 (cm) sta = 74.5 (degree) hta = 71 (degree) d = 14 (cm) sl = 9 (cm) This is the horizontal distance between saddle tip and handlebar dx=TT+cosd(sta)*hts-cosd(hta)*hs-d+sl = 49.4 [cm] This is thevertical drop of the handlebar dy = hts - hs = 7 [cm] This is the reach (saddle tip, handle bar center) sqrt(dx^2+dy^2) = 49.9 [cm]


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

Thanks guys, even though I didn't take trig...I actually understand what you are saying.
Guess now I need to go back to the bike shop and see if we can figure out what my current seat tube angle is. I think they have a device that can work that out.

Thanks again.


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## BrunoLuong (Sep 28, 2013)

Actually we were not saying a same thing. If you use the formula I use, you'll see the tube angle effect is minimal. Take the number above, with - ST angle = 74.5 degrees, the saddle-to-bar reach is 49.90 cm - If I change ST angle to 75.5 (straighter, more forward) the saddle-to-bar reach is 49.65 cm (everything being equal) So about 2.5 mm of shift, but you would any compensate that with your hip position with respect to the crank. Bruno


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## OrenPerets (Feb 22, 2006)

BrunoLuong said:


> Actually we were not saying a same thing...Bruno


 - And we disagree (respectfully, though :aureola.

For a given seat tube length the Projection of that length on the TT axis is simply (ST length) * cos(ST angle). 
In simple words, given a ST length of 50 cm, for a 75 degree ST angle it'll be 12.94 cm, and for a 74 degree ST angle i'll be 13.78. the difference is 8.4 mm.

now, as
1) The (theoretical correct) position of a specific rider fore-aft is at a specific location *relative to the BB*.
2) Manufactures measure Effective TT from the TT-HT junction to the ST horizontally... 
So, *moving between the two ST angles while keeping the correct fore-aft position for you* you are changing the effective TT by the calculated 8.4 mm.

see 
Going to smaller frame - Weight Weenies
or
Tall headtubes & shorter reach geometry - Weight Weenies

Hence the disagreement.

*To the op*
I am still hoping it may suit you fine.

now, as for understanding what is the ST angle on your current rig - just tell us what frame make/model and year it is. the internet does wonders when you search correctly 

as for reach, the calculated reach is 369.12mm for an XS 585 optimum. i used this bb2stem
Oren


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

Oren,
Thanks for the help. As for figuring out the ST angle on my current ride, I'm afraid that won't happen. I am riding a custom Land Shark that was not originally made for me. There is no record as to who owned this bike, etc. I have searched how to measure ST angles and it does not appear to be all that easy for the average Joe (me) at least without a few pieces of equipment. If you have a suggestion along those lines that doesn't involve college level trig...I would be happy to hear it. I'll be very disappointed (not to mention broke) if I go ahead and buy this Look and it doesn't fit.


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## BrunoLuong (Sep 28, 2013)

Another measurement that correlates to the reach is the distance between bottom bracket and front hub (C in Look chart). They are completely related to the reach assuming the ht angle and fork shift (f in Look chart) are the same.


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## BrunoLuong (Sep 28, 2013)

One thing you need to pay attention as well is the shape of the seatpost. With the relative straight seattube, it is more logic to use seatpost that have a back offset of the saddle clamp (as with the Look epost or Look ergopost, which have 15mm of offset). They compesate for the straight seat-tube, but the handle-bar will be father.


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## OrenPerets (Feb 22, 2006)

hawker12 said:


> As for figuring out the ST angle on my current ride, I'm afraid that won't happen..


makes sense. maybe (if you have it available) you could compare the two bikes, side to side? it would give you a rough estimation which is steeper / shallower ...
(if the look is same or shallower - it should be fine).
anyhow - any news?

Oren


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

I wanted to fill you all in. I ended up purchasing this frame and building it with Dura-Ace from another bike I owned. I rode it a few days ago for the first time...and absolutely LOVE it. Ultimately the TT length is working out fine and while the front-reach is only a tiny bit shorter than what I had been riding, when combined with the taller head-tube it feels great with a 100mm stem. This is the first all carbon bike I have owned or ridden and even though my 17lb Land Shark rides very nice, the 585 feels even better. The overall weight is 15.3 and is very noticeable, at first almost felt too light.  The bike is not twitchy but is certainly quick and responsive. I can also feel the reduction in vibration and while not huge it is noticeable and comfortable.

Since this is my first carbon bike I have no idea how this compares to current carbon frames. But compared to my Giant TCR aluminum, my Vitus aluminum and my Land Shark Deddachai steel...this is the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. At times it felt like I had an extra gear...very smooth and very light. Did I mention that I love it? 


Thanks guys for all your help.


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## OrenPerets (Feb 22, 2006)

The 585 is one of the best carbon frames ever made. a true classic.

you actually started very much at the top 

its a good bike. enjoy it.
(also... as its no more in production - think twice before ever getting it sold... you may regret it)...


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## tv_vt (Aug 30, 2007)

Congrats on your purchase. I love my Optimum, too! They're great bikes. Hang on to you other bikes, though. Variety is fun - and you don't want to ride the Look in crap weather.

Enjoy!


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