# Tubular tire mileage worry



## stevepeter833 (Dec 22, 2012)

Hi all,

This is the very time for me to get tubular wheels. They're yet to arrive but they will be my day-to-day wheels. I don't race and only commute daily to work at about 40km a day as well as long-hill ride ~150km on either Saturday or Sunday.

The reason I got onto tubular is because that's the wheel that came with the bike. I have been reading a lot of articles on tubular and what makes me concerned is the mileage of these tires. I'm yet to see a tubular tire that lasts more than 1000km without a single puncture happening prior. Is that true?

Can you suggest any particular brand/model that will last for at least 1000km? Vittoria Corsa Evo CX came with the wheel but I also just bought Tufo Pro S33 from Wiggle because they're the cheapest. The more expensive ones - based on the user reviews - don't hold that long either. Anything that can last longer than 1000km is good for where I live (Perth, Western Australia).

Also, I'll be using Tufo tape instead of glue. I know a lot of people avoid using tape but I have a friend who speaks highly of it especially on how easy it is to change tires. I also bought the Tufo sealant.


Thanks heaps,
Steve


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Why would tubular tires last only 1000km? That doesn't seem logical. And why on earth would you want them for commuting and everyday wheels? That isn't logical either.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I've found they last about as long as the equivalent clincher tires. Just as it is with clinchers, macho ones will last longer and be more resistant to foreign intrusion than the lighter, racier variety. They also won't ride as sweetly. Back in the distant past (the 1970's), I was able to get a couple of years out of a pair of tubulars. They'd look like hell, but they'd still hold air. I can't recommend any particular tire, though, as I'm currently more a clincher guy than a tubular one. ...Simply a matter of circumstance, not preference.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

stevepeter833 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is the very time for me to get tubular wheels. They're yet to arrive but they will be my day-to-day wheels. I don't race and only commute daily to work at about 40km a day as well as long-hill ride ~150km on either Saturday or Sunday.
> 
> ...


I'll only say this once. DO NOT use tape. Having a tire that is 'easy' to change is not a good thing. To be honest you don't sound like the type to ride tubulars. To reinforce my first point, GLUE...properly applied, is the ONLY correct way to mount tubulars. I have a vast amount of experience w/ them, road, cx, and track. Glue is the only safe way to mount them. If you choose to ignore this advice I hope you're lucky and don't roll a tire.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Seems like a bad idea for every day wheels. Maybe some Vitt Paves with Bontrager RL sealant will fend off the inevitable road side gluing spare swaps when you flat.

I'd sure go tubeless first myself. I sold off all my sew-up stuff with my 85 Colnago Victory early this year.

And remember to calc in what you will be carrying with to support your system as parts of the system...


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> I'll only say this once. DO NOT use tape.


As in one last time? [I could search for more maybe]

Tubular Tape or Glue?


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Good time for a Fast Tack conversation?


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

There are tubulars that include a reasonable degree of puncture resistance, like Conti Gatorskins.

How long tubulars or clinchers can go without flatting is more a function of how much garbage you are riding over. Where I reside these days, I haven't had a flat in years - I pull tubulars off when threads start showing through the tread. If you're flatting as often as you say, it would be a lot more cost effective to stick with clinchers.

I am not a fan of any tapes for mounting tubulars, as they plain and simply do not hold a tire to the rim as well as a good to excellent glue job. You definitely do not want to choose a glue/tape based on how easy it is to remove the tire, as that means the tire is likely to roll off through a corner.


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## pittsey (Oct 12, 2012)

stevepeter833 said:


> The reason I got onto tubular is because that's the wheel that came with the bike.


My bike came with tiagra, doesn't make sense to buy new tiagra for it. Makes more sense than commuting with tubbies though.


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## Kemmelberg (Dec 27, 2005)

Anybody try Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape? I've never used tape, but this stuff sounds like it might be pretty good. I do wonder, however, how you deal with replacing a taped tire on the road. Carry more tape? Also, it sounds like this tape is so strong that it's really tough to pull a tire off.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Most, if not all, tubular tires are not high mileage puncture proof tires because virtually no one uses tubular tires for anything but racing. 

But if all you're asking for is 1000km just about any tire will do unless you sprint up hills exclusively. 

What you should really do is put the wheels on ebay and get the right tool for the job. Commuting on tubular race tires doesn't make much sense.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> What you should really do is put the wheels on ebay and get the right tool for the job. Commuting on tubular race tires doesn't make much sense.


+1 on that..


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> What you should really do is put the wheels on ebay and get the right tool for the job. Commuting on tubular race tires doesn't make much sense.


Well; if he gets Vit Paves and not Conti Sprinters is it really race tires just because it's sewups? I still think it a bit foolhardy frankly...


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## stevepeter833 (Dec 22, 2012)

OK thanks all. I've always used clincher thus far...it just so happens that the bike comes with tubular. And I'm keen to get out of my comfort zone and just try it for at least few months to see what it's like to own tubulars.

Well my clincher Gatorskin holds for about 1400km before I started seeing a lot of cuts. I don't know why tires somehow don't last that long at where I live and ride from/to. I ride on a lot of chip-sealed and gravelly-asphalt road. That's what the road is like here in Perth.

OK glue and tape discussion aside, should I decide to use tape, is removing the tires as easy as glue? I've seen a lot of videos on removing glued tubular tires but yet to see one that's on tape. THanks heaps for all your help.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

stevepeter833 said:


> OK glue and tape discussion aside, should I decide to use tape...


You should resolve to not use tape.


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

craiger_ny said:


> You should resolve to not use tape.


I get an easy 2,000 miles out of Gatorskin tubular's.

I have been through one set and I have right around 1,000 miles on my current set.

I have never had a single flat on this combo and we ride some nasty chip-seal, I bunny-hop my bike a lot, I weigh 190-198 lbs and it's not unusual for me to hit a little gravel riding.

I don't race and I use these wheels everyday year round. I normally wouldn't suggest tubulars to be used like this but I got a killer deal on them and I was going to just use them for events(we do a lot of charity rides) but I put them on and never took them off again.

I hear people say that Gatorskins are horrible in the rain but I have never had an issue with that either.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Kemmelberg said:


> Anybody try Effetto Mariposa Carogna tape? I've never used tape, but this stuff sounds like it might be pretty good. I do wonder, however, how you deal with replacing a taped tire on the road. Carry more tape? Also, it sounds like this tape is so strong that it's really tough to pull a tire off.


Zinn said he's a fan (even for CX use) but on the Amazon reviews I read that someone rolled a tire with it. I'd really like to hear if anyone has tried it. It's one of those products that I'm really hoping works, but I don't want to be a first adopter.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

deviousalex said:


> Zinn said he's a fan (even for CX use) but on the Amazon reviews I read that someone rolled a tire with it. I'd really like to hear if anyone has tried it. It's one of those products that I'm really hoping works, but I don't want to be a first adopter.


The possible outcome of a rolled tubular doesn't bear thinking about. I'd take a 10-minute tire removal time (if I was silly enough to go back to tubulars for training) over chancing a rolled tire.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I only use Tufo tape to mount Tufo Tubeless Tubular tires on my bike.

They work fine.

Do you have something against products from the Czech Republic?

He doesn't:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/muzi.html


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I only use Tufo tape to mount Tufo Tubeless Tubular tires on my bike.
> 
> They work fine.
> 
> ...


OP, don't pay any attention to this guy, he's just the resident troll-like member. You don't even want to know how he builds a bike. I speak from VAST experience on this matter...you want to have someone that knows what they're doing GLUE your tires if you end up going tubular.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> OP, don't pay any attention to this guy, he's just the resident troll-like member. You don't even want to know how he builds a bike. I speak from VAST experience on this matter...you want to have someone that knows what they're doing GLUE your tires if you end up going tubular.


I have eye witness that it works fine.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I have eye witness that it works fine.


For YOU. I have, as I've posted...a LOT more experience that it fails. Just stop w/ the Tufo ****.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> For YOU. I have, as I've posted...a LOT more experience that it fails. Just stop w/ the Tufo ****.


But apparently I don't know what I'm doing and it still works, for me only.


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## billendk (Dec 10, 2014)

Works great for me too!, never going back to messy glue job.


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## WeakSister (Oct 30, 2009)

Re commuting on tubulars, I've kinda changed my thinking on that. Over a year ago I started riding Tufo cross tubulars on trails. Damn things are indestructible. Well over 200 hours of trail riding and they look brand new after I wash bike. I put Stan's in them and have had no problems at all.

This might be apple/orange argument since it's a cross tire, but I would think you could use a sturdy, low tpi road Tufo with good results.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

myhui said:


> But apparently I don't know what I'm doing and it still works, for me only.


Have you ever considered you don't take corners as aggressively as other people? I bought a used tubular wheel from eBay and could easily remove the tire with one hand. It worked for the previous (triathlete) owner in HIS conditions because he never took turns during races. It certainly wouldn't work for my applications (road races and criteriums).


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I will be asking the moderators to undo the negative rep @Bridgestone gave me.



deviousalex said:


> Have you ever considered you don't take corners as aggressively as other people?


Yes, I have. This is my 25mm wide rear tire, over 1000 miles now. See how the sidewalls are worn from aggressive cornering and not from under inflation? If you mount them on clean rims of the right material, then they'll hang on. If you mount them on rims of unsuitable material, or use the wrong mounting technique, or the rim surface is dirty, or you did not center them properly before activating the glue, then they will fall off.

Tufo Elite Ride 25 Tubular Road Tire

Far Sports Home page


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## Bridgestone (Sep 6, 2007)

myhui said:


> I will be asking the moderators to undo the negative comment @Bridgestone gave me.


Why would they do that? You gave bad advice that could result in injury as already noted in this thread. Is that not the purpose of the reputation system?


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

myhui said:


> Yes, I have. This is my 25mm wide rear tire, over 1000 miles now. See how the sidewalls are worn from aggressive cornering and not from under inflation?[/IMG]


Respectfully, you would need to have some pretty amazing cornering abilities to put a bike down so far as to wear the labeling off the tires. I'm not buying it.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

RHankey said:


> Respectfully, you would need to have some pretty amazing cornering abilities to put a bike down so far as to wear the labeling off the tires. I'm not buying it.



Or just not air up all the time before riding...


For the thread and record for the OP, I solidly agree with not using said tape.


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

robt57 said:


> Or just not air up all the time before riding...


Not that it matters, but the wear pattern looks more consistent with the tire potentially rubbing the chain stays on occasion, as the letters are worn most wear the tire is the widest. It almost looks like you can see scuffing in the direction of tire rotation.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

No chance whatsoever that label is worn from cornering. Not. A. Single. Chance.

That's pretty obviously from the tire rubbing the frame for whatever reason. The label is worn more on the side than the tread, can't be from lean. Jesus, MotoGP bikes are the only thing capable of that lean angle.


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## Rob-c (Jul 4, 2014)

Perth Scotland or Perth Western Australia ?


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## Kendogz161 (Aug 17, 2007)

stevepeter833 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is the very time for me to get tubular wheels. They're yet to arrive but they will be my day-to-day wheels. I don't race and only commute daily to work at about 40km a day as well as long-hill ride ~150km on either Saturday or Sunday.
> 
> ...


 Give the tubulars a try, it's the only way you'll know if it for you. 
The key is finding the tires the work for you for the riding that you do.
I run Continental Competition, Sprinter or Gatorskins with the last two as my training tires. I carry a Tufo Pro 33 as a spare and a small bottle of Stans. I don't run sealant in my tires to start out with because I like to know how long they last before a puncture.
I also do a lot of city riding and these tires have held up nicely.
I've have some buddies that have taped there tubs on there wheels and have never rolled them but I stay away from that stuff and just use the Vittoria glue.
If you look over some old post under CX Wrench he has some good instructions on gluing that the wrench at my LBS and myself uses that are spot on.


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## The B (Feb 2, 2014)

RHankey said:


> Respectfully, you would need to have some pretty amazing cornering abilities to put a bike down so far as to wear the labeling off the tires. I'm not buying it.


I have no rub marks on my frame or fork, and these wheels haven't been on any other bike... All of my tires look like this...


















I do have some amazing cornering skills.. and specifically, high-speed windy mountain descent cornering... I'm top-10 or KOM on some long, fast, windy descents - outpacing some pros on a couple. And I definitely always top off to 100PSI for my 160lbs before every ride... so I'm not running 'em low.

You tellin' me that's not asphalt wear?

---

To the OP - I ride tubulars 100%. Train, race, and commute on them, and I personally think they're SUPERIOR for commuting, even on my shitty dirty ass local roads. With Stan's in the tube, I've never once gone flat while riding. I've had one cut that eventually put the tire out of commission, later, but I finished my ride and got home with plenty of air in the tire. And I ride gravel fairly frequently - there's lot of gravelly linkups between tarmacked country roads out here, and it's not uncommon for me to see 10 or even 20 miles of gravel on a non-gravel ride, on my road bike.

I've never changed a tire in the field, to the point that I don't even carry a spare. Only time I've ever carried a spare was last year's Seattle To Portland (203 miles), and carried it in case of total blowout, not puncture. I did have one puncture, in my FRONT tire, right after crossing the bridge in Longview, so about 75% of the way- I didn't have any Stan's in it, as I was only rolling Stan's in the rear at that point... so I hopped off the bike, quickly spun out the core with my handy-dandy Park core-removal tool, squirted some pre-peppered Stan's in the valve, wheel still on the bike - barely took any more time than getting a swap from a support car... sealed the hole immediately and I finished the final 50 miles at full PSI. Tire was permanently fixed, too... never leaked again.

F'ing love tubulars. And has anyone mentioned how much better they ride? I can only hit it as hard as I do on descent because of the security of good tubular tires. GLUED - with Mastik One. No way I'd ride tape.

As to that... I've never ridden Tufo road tires, because of the overwhelmingly consistent hatred for them in the road community. Vittoria Corse Elites are a GREAT tire that can be had for $35 from Ribble. I've got 1200 miles (so, what, 2000KM?) on the set pictured above, and see no reason to think the rear won't go several hundred more and the front probably more than twice that. 

Definitely owe it to yourself to try them. But with a good tire.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The B said:


> You tellin' me that's not asphalt wear?


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Tufo S3 Lite Tubular Tire

Far Sports Home page

My front tire.










"Don't feel you have to listen to others who insist that you must use one product with another product." That's what Andrew Muzi told me. He further told me that his advice also goes for everything else in life, not just for bicycle parts.

I just came back from a wonderful ride, where on my favorite high speed right turns (just going around the block, really), I put the left foot down, put the right foot up, press down on the right side handlebar with my right hand, lean right, lean further than how the bike is leaning, and just go for it, going as fast as I dare, which can be as high as 22mph on a 90 degree turn on those right hand turns with the traffic island in between.

These tires work fine, over and over again, not just this afternoon.

Perhaps I ought to move to Belgium and ride Tufos with those guys. Or move to the Czech Republic and ride Tufos with those guys.

Note that you could die if you ride Tufos. So, don't listen to me ... just don't ride Tufos, since you could die riding them.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I ride tubulars daily. I have Conti Gatorskins on now. I've gotten as much as a 1500-2000 miles on tubulars (Vittoria CX, Conti sprinters). It all depends on how lucky you are with flats.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I will be asking the moderators to undo the negative rep @Bridgestone gave me.


Just saw this. Are you freakin kidding me? Grow up you entitled, whiney baby.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Just saw this. Are you freakin kidding me? Grow up you entitled, whiney baby.


TUFO - Tubeless bicycle tyres - About us


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

The B said:


> I do have some amazing cornering skills.. and specifically, high-speed windy mountain descent cornering... I'm top-10 or KOM on some long, fast, windy descents - outpacing some pros on a couple. And I definitely always top off to 100PSI for my 160lbs before every ride... so I'm not running 'em low.
> 
> You tellin' me that's not asphalt wear?
> 
> ---


sure, I'll tell you; That's not asphalt wear. Just go lean your bike over in the basement to see when the label touches ground and if you think you're actually leaning that far on the road....well, you'd be wrong.

By the way my Corsas look just like that and, unlike you, I'm definitely not the worlds greatest high speed descender. I just assumed my labels got like that from riding though gravel and debris kicking up but I don't know. I do know for sure it's not from leaning into corners though


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> sure, I'll tell you; That's not asphalt wear. Just go lean your bike over in the basement to see when the label touches ground and if you think you're actually leaning that far on the road....well, you'd be wrong.
> 
> By the way my Corsas look just like that and, unlike you, I'm definitely not the worlds greatest high speed descender. I just assumed my labels got like that from riding though gravel and debris kicking up but I don't know. I do know for sure it's not from leaning into corners though


^This^ The wear would luck MUCH different if it was from lean angle. In all my years as a team mechanic I only know one guy that actually wore the hot patches on Vittoria tires from lean angle and it was one corner on one course that was very different from other corners. He was a crit nut job and had insane skill. He didn't _need_ to lean that far, but did because he thought it was cool.


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## RHankey (Sep 7, 2007)

The B said:


> You tellin' me that's not asphalt wear?


Unless you are riding lower pressures or over rough roads, that would be correct. The labeling on my tubulars often looks like that too, and I have no need in recent years to push the bike to the ragged edge - and even in my younger years when I did, my labels looked no worse than they do now. It comes from scuffing edges of potholes, riding over gravel driveways and the like, and in general rough roads. If you don't believe me, see how far you have to lay your bike over by hand before the labeling is on the pavement - you'll have a case of road rash long before that point.

MyHui's worn labels comes purely from tire rubbing the frame (as there is a narrow strip next to the tread that is not worn), which is further proven by a front tire that has labels that are completely untouched.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I have submitted an official request to have the neg rep given to me by @Bridgestone reversed.



RHankey said:


> MYHui's worn labels comes purely from tire rubbing the frame (as there is a narrow strip next to the tread that is not worn), which is further proven by a front tire that has labels that are completely untouched.


My rear wheel's bearings are tight, and there is no rub at all. I ride these tires everywhere. I'm a commuter. I'm not a poseur. I don't have another bike to ride. If I go ride, I ride this bike.

I once rode them for a mile over cement road bed freshly ground up in preparation for putting down new tar. The shaking was downright violent as that scouring machine was adjusted for max effort. The tires survived. I stood up all the way, expecting the tires to pop any moment.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I have submitted an official request to have the neg rep given to me by @Bridgestone reversed.
> 
> 
> My rear wheel's bearings are tight, and there is no rub at all. I ride these tires everywhere. I'm a commuter. I'm not a poseur. I don't have another bike to ride. If I go ride, I ride this bike.
> ...


1) You're a baby about the whole rep thing. Give it up, your reputation has always been in the psych ward. 
2) Your tire has been rubbing on your frame. Look at it...it's totally obvious. The wear is on the side of the tire...the hot patch is more worn on the side than the tread. Jesus...are you that ignorant?


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Your tire has been rubbing on your frame. Look at it...it's totally obvious.


Nope, not rubbing on the frame at all. If you're going to debate the usefulness of Tufo Glue Tape, you need to change your strategy.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Nope, not rubbing on the frame at all. If you're going to debate the usefulness of Tufo Glue Tape, you need to change your strategy.


Well, it rubbed on something that wasn't the pavement. Knowing you it could've been anything. But not the road. You HAVE to be able to see that. This has nothing to do w/ shitty Tufo product. 

Which is shitty.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> Nope, not rubbing on the frame at all. If you're going to debate the usefulness of Tufo Glue Tape, you need to change your strategy.


It seems obvious enough there are two issues/topics. The tape and the label. Try to follow along now. 

Your attempt to tag the strategy of one 'debate' issue of the two to obfuscate the other. . . to do what, bolster your position on, which? This seems either ignorant or contrived in a very obvious way. So perhaps it is you that might consider a different strategy. This from someone with no dog in the hunt.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Well, it rubbed on something that wasn't the pavement.


What else could it possibly rub on? It didn't rub on the frame. Oh, I sometimes ride up the 1/2" step at the front of my driveway at an angle. Maybe that's it. All it takes is one scrape to rub off that label.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> Your attempt to tag the strategy of one 'debate' issue of the two to obfuscate the other. . . to do what, bolster your position on, which?


Let's get back to the "shitty" Tufo Tape debate then.

Someone called me out on the side wall rub, saying it's not a sign of me taking fast corners, and things got sidetracked.

Let's get back to the "shitty" Tufo Tape debate then.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> Let's get back to the "shitty" Tufo Tape debate then.
> 
> Someone called me out on the side wall rub, saying it's not a sign of me taking fast corners, and things got sidetracked.
> 
> Let's get back to the "shitty" Tufo Tape debate then.



Good luck if you think you can control thread divergence.  Especially when you make a claim like the performance angle of the label wear. And then try to remove yourself from any responsibility having done so. Something I probably would have done myself.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> Especially when you make a claim like the performance angle of the label wear. And then try to remove yourself from any responsibility having done so.


I honestly think the performance angle of the label wear is due to fast cornering. I still think so. Others offered alternative explanations, so I just followed them.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> I honestly think the performance angle of the label wear is due to fast cornering. I still think so.


Fair enough.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Tufo versus the world ... who will win? Let's say the bear is Tufo, and the bull is everybody else.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

User @Mackers gave me a neg rep on this thread just now. I have asked forum mods to reverse that neg rep.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

The B said:


> I have no rub marks on my frame or fork, and these wheels haven't been on any other bike... All of my tires look like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only time I have ever seen sidewalls worn like that is from riding on gravel which from what you say, you do quite regularly. 
You would have to have your bike almost laying on it's side to get wear half way down the sidewall like that on a normal asphalt surface.


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## The B (Feb 2, 2014)

Hey... I'm an open-minded individual. Just 'cause I've always assumed something sure as sheet doesn't mean that's the way it is. I'll have to pay close attention to what I'm riding and where I'm wearing, when I replace the rear next


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I have submitted an official request to have the neg rep given to me by @Bridgestone reversed.


I'll just leave this here:








Should I be a b***h and 'submit an official request' to have @myhui's negative feedback (which is a parrot of my post, nothing else) removed? No, I'm an adult and I'd rather have a negative rep from this tool than positive.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

It's ironic that @cxwrench taught me a few years ago how to mount a tubular tire.

At that time, I made no mention of what brand of tire it is, and whether I'll use glue or tape.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> I'll just leave this here:
> 
> Should I be a b***h and 'submit an official request' to have @myhui's negative feedback (which is a parrot of my post, nothing else) removed? No, I'm an adult and I'd rather have a negative rep from this tool than positive.


I am wondering which of you two got more black stars in kindergarten for works well and plays well with others. 

Did you at least respond in kind with some neg feedback? I forgot to look.

These are of course rhetorical and attempts of mood lightening jocularity.
Too late for that maybe? :mad2: The pertinent Rodney King Conundrum would obviously be lost post haste...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

robt57 said:


> I am wondering which of you two got more black stars in kindergarten for works well and plays well with others.
> 
> Did you at least respond in kind with some neg feedback? I forgot to look.
> 
> ...


No I didn't give him any (more) negative rep, I've dumped enough for 2 or 3 idiots on him, why bother. He takes part in many threads soley to troll. He's the person that pokes and prods and makes comments trying to get people to snap. I'll post a reply here and there in an effort to put the proper information out there, and counter his random idiocy but I have a feeling he may be the first member ever to get the 'ignore' button.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I've been riding tubeless and tubular tires over the past 8 years almost exclusively. I get about 2300 miles out of Vittoria Paves (tubulars) on the front and about half that on the rear. I find both tubular and tubeless tires to be far more reliable and puncture resistant than clinchers--including Pave clinchers. I use Stan's in both tubular and tubeless. Do understand that tubulars lose far more air overnight than clinchers and you need to pump them up almost daily. 

Regarding tape: If you ride traditional narrow rimmed tubular rims with 23mm tires at traditional tire pressures, you should be fine using Tufo. Wide rims with big tires using lower pressure, maybe not so much--especially if you are pushing the limit through turns. There are some tubular cements that I believe are weaker than Tufo tape. Use vittoria mastic to be safe.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> I've been riding tubeless and tubular tires over the past 8 years almost exclusively. I get about 2300 miles out of Vittoria Paves (tubulars) on the front and about half that on the rear. I find both tubular and tubeless tires to be far more reliable and puncture resistant than clinchers--including Pave clinchers. I use Stan's in both tubular and tubeless. Do understand that tubulars lose far more air overnight than clinchers and you need to pump them up almost daily.
> 
> Regarding tape: If you ride traditional narrow rimmed tubular rims with 23mm tires at traditional tire pressures, you should be fine using Tufo. Wide rims with big tires using lower pressure, maybe not so much--especially if you are pushing the limit through turns. There are some tubular cements that I believe are weaker than Tufo tape. Use vittoria mastic to be safe.


The only times I've ever seen Tufo tape come close to working as well as glue were narrow rims and Tufo tires. Some bonded pretty well, many did not. Worst case I've seen (repeatedly) is Continental tires w/ black uncoated base tape on wide-ish carbon rims. Tape stuck well to rim, but didn't come close to the edge which is the most important place to have a good bond. Absolutely zero adhesion to the Conti base tape. None. I inflated the tires to 100psi and pushed them off the rim easily, right in front of the horrified customer. The customer that had just paid good money to have the tires mounted by the shop that sold him the wheels and tires. He actually recorded it on his cell phone so he could go back and get a refund. 

I agree w/ you, I use ONLY Vittoria Mastik One.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

My riding partners are nearly all on clinchers (with tubes). They flat frequently on groups rides. When I ride my Enve clinchers with tubes (only infrequently--mostly while waiting for glue to dry) I too get a disproportionate number of puncture flats).

On the same enve rims riding tubeless, no issues other than overnight air loss. On Pave tubulars with Stan's--almost never an issue(Zipp 303's and Bontrager Aeolus tubular rims). Still a lot of overnight air loss.


RHankey said:


> There are tubulars that include a reasonable degree of puncture resistance, like Conti Gatorskins.
> 
> How long tubulars or clinchers can go without flatting is more a function of how much garbage you are riding over. Where I reside these days, I haven't had a flat in years - I pull tubulars off when threads start showing through the tread. If you're flatting as often as you say, it would be a lot more cost effective to stick with clinchers.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Tufo tubular tires are tubeless, hence they're the lightest.

That's why I only use Tufo Glue Tape with Tufo tires. I have said time and time again that the material must be compatible.

Our chemistry professor Dr. Scott here can probably confirm that obvious observation.

Since Tufo tires are the lightest, and they ride very nicely, I don't see the need to use Continental tires with their ancient inner tubes.

The bear will win. But it'll take time. Just fourteen months.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Tufo tubular tires are tubeless, hence they're the lightest.
> 
> That's why I only use Tufo Glue Tape with Tufo tires. I have said time and time again that the material must be compatible.
> 
> ...


Here you are again w/ your ill-informed information. The inside of the casing of Tufo tires are coated w/ butyl. The same material that tubes are made with. It's what allows them to hold air, and to allow the sealant to work. The fact that they don't have seperate tubes has nothing to do w/ their weight. There is the same amount of butyl in the tires contruction as a lightweight tube. 
The fact that Tufo tires are light is in no way related to their ride quality which is universally agreed to be among the worst in the world of 'tubulars'. An overinflated Conti Sprinter will ride better than a Tufo, mostly due to it's softer tread compound, partially due to it's contruction. 
Once again you're just trying to stir things up. I could easily give you negative rep, but again...why play little kid games? I'm just trying to supply the correct information.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> attempts of mood lightening jocularity..


Come here for that: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/lounge/spot-five-amano-shrimps-photo-your-sunday-morning-relaxation-350776.html#post4938138


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> The inside of the casing of Tufo tires are coated w/ butyl. The same material that tubes are made with. It's what allows them to hold air, and to allow the sealant to work. The fact that they don't have seperate tubes has nothing to do w/ their weight. There is the same amount of butyl in the tires contruction as a lightweight tube.


Butyl sprayed onto the inside of a casing should be lighter than butyl formed into the shape of an inner tube that must be free standing and sold as a product in a box.



cxwrench said:


> The fact that Tufo tires are light is in no way related to their ride quality which is universally agreed to be among the worst in the world of 'tubulars'.


I would question that blanket statement just as I would question a blanket statement saying that all Fords are worse than all Chevys forever and ever. Some Tufos must ride better than some Contis, and vice versa as well.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> I don't see the need to use Continental tires with their ancient inner tubes.



Dude, ancient? I think perhaps you are trying a little too hard to convince [yourself via the thread by proxy]. BTW, my use of the word 'perhaps' is just to color a little politeness onto the comment.


And isn't definition of a coating which is a tube bonded onto the inner surface of the casing just semantics really?  If one want to conceptualize into ones own thinking and call it fact. 

And having said that, although my tubular days are over by choice . . . I can say no Tufo I used did I feel added to the tubular experience, quite the opposite. 
Even the yellow jersey clement factory sewups rode better and flatted less, and cost a whole lot less. 

Although I quit before the 'tubeless' Tufos made it onto any of my wheels admittedly. Which is EXACTLY why I stopped and sold all the sewup stuff off. The tires I felt made the tubular use worthwhile was a lot more money that I was willing to pay out of my own pockets anymore.

And read my sig line, That is all opinion I put out here as only that, and not making claims of what folks should take as fact. Hopefully different form mis-infomation.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> And isn't definition of a coating which is a tube bonded onto the inner surface of the casing just semantics really?  If one want to conceptualize into ones own thinking and call it fact.


No, from a mechanical strength point of view, you can indeed make a thinner layer of butyl sprayed inside a casing compared to having it free standing to be sold inside a box and handled with bare hands when changing the tube in a tire. Thus, my contention is that the sprayed butyl is always lighter than the butyl in a free standing tube.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> No, from a mechanical strength point of view, you can indeed make a thinner layer of butyl sprayed inside a casing compared to having it free standing to be sold inside a box and handled with bare hands when changing the tube in a tire. Thus, my contention is that the sprayed butyl is always lighter than the butyl in a free standing tube.



And you must know how thick that coating is ?? ["you can indeed make a thinner layer of butyl"] Are you claiming Tufo 'can' or 'does' in the tires at issue?

And/but is the casing thicker as a result of the non ancient tech [like some of my tubeless road tires are] and there-fore not being taken into consideration prior to your claimed opinion? And counter acting the weigh equation, cause are these really SO light??


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> And counter acting the weigh equation, cause are these really SO light??


The manufacturer claims 215 grams.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> The manufacturer claims 215 grams.


And is this born out in reality ?? Not being sarcastic, I dunno. It is more of a rhetorical question. I have to say I would never run such a light tire as a non racer, so I don't why I am even participating at this point.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

robt57 said:


> And is this born out in reality ?? Not being sarcastic, I dunno. It is more of a rhetorical question. I have to say I would never run such a light tire as a non racer, so I don't why I am even participating at this point.


The front wheel mentioned and shown in this post Tubular tire mileage worry - post 37 weighs 771 grams. That same wheel has served me for at least two years and many thousands of miles. I have never replaced that wheel, and only occasionally trued it. I have replaced at least four Tufo tires on it due to punctures. The glue surface is just as spotlessly clean as ever, provided I take great pains to remove tiny blobs of glue from the carbon wheel rim whenever I change the tire.

Thus, Tufo's tubeless tubular construction has three advantages: no sidewall on the rims (but this is not exclusive to Tufo) to save weight, no need to have butyl thick enough to withstand manual handling, no need to have air tight interface between tire and rim as you do on tubeless clinchers.

Tufo has one serious disadvantage: a puncture has no place to go once it gets past the casing, so it goes right through the butyl pretty quickly, whereby with an inner tube there's a tiny chance that it'll go through the casing and not go through the butyl since the two aren't bonded together.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

myhui said:


> The front wheel mentioned and shown in this post Thus, Tufo's tubeless tubular construction has three advantages: no sidewall on the rims (but this is not exclusive to Tufo) to save weight, no need to have butyl thick enough to withstand manual handling, no need to have air tight interface between tire and rim as you do on tubeless clinchers.
> 
> Tufo has one serious disadvantage: a puncture has no place to go once it gets past the casing, so it goes right through the butyl pretty quickly, whereby with an inner tube there's a tiny chance that it'll go through the casing and not go through the butyl since the two aren't bonded together.





Please, some data points; you weigh how much? You ride where and on what surfaces [excuse if you said already in thread]

I think we get the liner, those of use using the tech on our mtn bikes certainly.

Not sure with sealant the disadvantage noted last with sealant use is really a consideration personally. Do I take that to mean you run them sans sealant?
Again if already said in thread my apologies..

When you say "Thus" and following points, can I take this top mean your personal observations and not a wiki entry not made by you. [] As authoritative as you sound wording things like that, all due respect.


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