# Merlin are refusing to repair my Cielo.... HELP Please



## infopete

Hi Everyone,

I started a thread under Manufacturers but I need more help so I hope you don't mind me starting another.

"I have just received this email from the ABG Group:

"We do not want to guess as to how the frame has come to be damaged. The rest of the frame does have damage as indicated through the photos. I am sorry that your frame is damaged and I do sympathise with you, but as it stands, we are not going to repair or replace the frame under warranty. 

I am sorry that I cannot help you further."

This was in reply to me asking them to indicate why and how they thought my merlin was in an impact.

The original thread is here http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=232616

My Merlin has been pampered and has never been in an impact but the ABG Warranty department think I am a liar, what can I do?


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## Hooben

Anytime a bike breaks at the welds, I blame the welders. Too bad as I used to think of Merlin as a quality bicycle name. I feel really bad for you. are they offering you anything at all, perhaps a discounted frame? Are they going to send your parts on t he bike back to you...
( the grouppo?. I mean they have to do something...


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## FBinNY

You should write a letter to the president of ABG group, and ask him to appoint someone in his office to review the claim. The denial of warranty letter referred to other frame damage and you should ask them to specify the *exact * nature of this damage, and how it justifies not warrantying a weld failure at the right chainstay.

As a final recourse, you can initiate a suit in small claims court, which often generates a more pro-active response.


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## infopete

I'm in the UK, how would I make a claim in your courts?

Regards

Pete



FBinNY said:


> You should write a letter to the president of ABG group, and ask him to appoint someone in his office to review the claim. The denial of warranty letter referred to other frame damage and you should ask them to specify the *exact * nature of this damage, and how it justifies not warrantying a weld failure at the right chainstay.
> 
> As a final recourse, you can initiate a suit in small claims court, which often generates a more pro-active response.


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## FBinNY

That makes it tougher if not impossible. You could sue them here through an attorney but the cost would be prohibitive, but I suggested suit as a *last * step.

Start with a short but clear letter to the president of ABS, not flaming them, but asking that he look into the matter on your behalf. Well written letters of this type are amazingly effective at getting positive results. In your case, you're asking them to clearly and specifically explain what the other damage is, and how it could be related to a weld failure. If ABS/Merlin have an agent in the UK, and you bought it through channels be sure to copy the agent and the local dealer. 

IMO, a properly done weld should be stronger then the tube, and if the break were caused by misuse then it's the tube that would have failed at the weld, not the weld itself. Cracking through a weld is (again IMO) indicative of a weld problem. 

Also if you bought it through channels in the UK, you might have legal recourse against the agent, or at least a bit of leverage.

BUT, start with non-legal steps, and save suits and even threats of suits as a last measure.


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## dcl10

That's clearly a bad weld. Even if you hit it with a car that should be the last point which breaks. I know a guy who works there, and being a fairly small company maybe just bringing it to the attention of someone who knows what they are talking about will do something.


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## infopete

I bought it in San Diego, off the internet, as it's much cheaper than in the UK (everything is).

I'll get the email address of the CEO and compose a suitable letter and see what happens.

The warranty department are impossible to deal with :mad2:


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## tarwheel2

I would be willing to bet that if you had bought your bike/frame through a bike shop Merlin would have honored the warranty claim. Some manufacturers do not seem to honor warranties for items bought through internet sales. I'm not saying this because I'm one of those LBS-at-any-cost people, just stating a fact. It's something to keep in mind, though, when buying expensive items like frames.


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## infopete

Hi

I did buy it through a shop (I think) during their winter sale. It just happened not to be a very local bike shop, great service too.

The Merlin I originally had only lasted 6 weeks before the bonding failed so this one is a warranty replacement.

ABG used to have an office in the UK but this closed down a few years ago. The support I had with the original frame was superb, totally the opposite now.

:mad2:


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## krisdrum

tarwheel2 said:


> I would be willing to bet that if you had bought your bike/frame through a bike shop Merlin would have honored the warranty claim. Some manufacturers do not seem to honor warranties for items bought through internet sales. I'm not saying this because I'm one of those LBS-at-any-cost people, just stating a fact. It's something to keep in mind, though, when buying expensive items like frames.


Was just thinking this as well. Might be a case of the internet seller not being an "authorized dealer" and Merlin making the claim that warranties are void if not purchased from an authorized dealer. Its crappy, but I've seen it happen.


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## tarwheel2

infopete said:


> Hi
> 
> I did buy it through a shop (I think) during their winter sale. It just happened not to be a very local bike shop, great service too.
> 
> The Merlin I originally had only lasted 6 weeks before the bonding failed so this one is a warranty replacement.
> 
> ABG used to have an office in the UK but this closed down a few years ago. The support I had with the original frame was superb, totally the opposite now.
> 
> :mad2:


Have you tried handling it through the shop where you bought the frame? My experience is that shop owners have better success dealing with manufacturers on warranty issues than individuals. If the shop is an authorized Merlin dealer, they should be willing to go to bat for you.


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## rx-79g

Looking at your thread in the Merlin forum:

How do you think the dropout itself got bent? That is an extremely tough piece of metal that is machined from flatstock. Bad welds I understand, but that doesn't fit with the bent dropout.


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## infopete

Hi

I have no idea how it got bent, I can't remember ever having to re-index the rear gear.

Strange it's bent outwards though.


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## FBinNY

It's impossible to tell from the photo, but if the cracked parts now have a bit of twist between them, it might have been welded mis-aligned and then cold set square. This could have left some unrelived stress and contributed to the fracture later on. 

In any case there's no way that hanger mis-alignment, or re-alignment should have caused that weld to crack, since minor cold-setting is par for the course in bike construction and maintenance, and should have been provided for.

I handled warranty for a dealer for 5+ years, then ran Campy's east coast service center for a few years. I had a simple rule, bending, buckling, dinging, etc. was the customer's fault, fracture of a casting, forging, or welded or brazed joint was always a defect, unless I could point to a specific way that something their fault caused it.


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## infopete

I just received a reply from Hank at Hi-Tech Bikes and he's going to see if he can do something to help. 

After 6 years and just a single purchase, that's very friendly service. 




tarwheel2 said:


> Have you tried handling it through the shop where you bought the frame? My experience is that shop owners have better success dealing with manufacturers on warranty issues than individuals. If the shop is an authorized Merlin dealer, they should be willing to go to bat for you.


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## infopete

I have asked the warranty department to explain, in detail, why they think the bike was in a crash but they have refused.

If you look at the first picture it's easy to see the rest of the bike is in perfect condition and the fault must be a flaw in it's manufacture.



FBinNY said:


> It's impossible to tell from the photo, but if the cracked parts now have a bit of twist between them, it might have been welded mis-aligned and then cold set square. This could have left some unrelived stress and contributed to the fracture later on.
> 
> In any case there's no way that hanger mis-alignment, or re-alignment should have caused that weld to crack, since minor cold-setting is par for the course in bike construction and maintenance, and should have been provided for.
> 
> I handled warranty for a dealer for 5+ years, then ran Campy's east coast service center for a few years. I had a simple rule, bending, buckling, dinging, etc. was the customer's fault, fracture of a casting, forging, or welded or brazed joint was always a defect, unless I could point to a specific way that something their fault caused it.


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## Jetmugg

That looks very much like the results of hydrogen embrittlement of the weld. In titanium weldments, hydrogen embrittlement failures can occur years after the initial welds are made.

I'm not a super-expert on this particular phenomena, but I know it when I see it. I'm a metallurgical engineer by profession, you could use the services of a good metallurgical engineer (but not me).

A good metallurgist can do a pretty thorough failure analysis, perhaps good enough to convince Merlin to replace the frame or repair it with good welds. 

I suggest asking around at your local technical university. Perhaps you can find a professor or grad student who is into cycling and would help you out a bit.

SteveM.


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## infopete

The frame is currently with the American Bicycle Group and I'm in the UK so my local University won't be much help.

I have thought about contacting the UTC College of Engineering and Computer Science
and asking if they can help.


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## rx-79g

FBinNY said:


> It's impossible to tell from the photo, but if the cracked parts now have a bit of twist between them, it might have been welded mis-aligned and then cold set square. This could have left some unrelived stress and contributed to the fracture later on.
> 
> In any case there's no way that hanger mis-alignment, or re-alignment should have caused that weld to crack, since minor cold-setting is par for the course in bike construction and maintenance, and should have been provided for.
> 
> I handled warranty for a dealer for 5+ years, then ran Campy's east coast service center for a few years. I had a simple rule, bending, buckling, dinging, etc. was the customer's fault, fracture of a casting, forging, or welded or brazed joint was always a defect, unless I could point to a specific way that something their fault caused it.


You can't and don't cold set titanium. That's only steel frames (though some warpage can apparently be corrected in a first couple hours after welding 6061 aluminum).

I would imagine ABG is seeing a bent dropout AND twisted looking welds and assuming that something pretty fierce involving the rear wheel happened. And your hanger isn't necessarily bent outwards - we might also be looking at a dropout that has been twisted counter-clockwise so that the top of the drop out running into the seat stay is the part that has been bent. Such a twisting motion would account for the two simultaneous failures AND the bend in the dropout. I would not be surprised to see a similar bend in the other dropout.

Thinking more about this, perhaps the bend is from the hub pushing up against the seat stay immediately after the weld failed.

So - two explanations: Something happened sometime (your choice when) that twisted the rear wheel counter-clockwise hard enough to bend the top of the dropout and crack both welds. This would require a huge side impact to the wheel at the rim without the wheel failing.

The other explanation is that the welds were contaminated, suffered oxygen embrittlement or hydrogen embrittlement. The right side failed, the right side of the hub twisted up, the carbon seatstays flexed enough for the top half of the dropout to bend and the bad weld on the left cracked as it twisted counter-clockwise. This would explain how two bad welds could also bend the dropout without an impact. So I would take that tact with ABG.


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## infopete

rx-79g said:


> You can't and don't cold set titanium. That's only steel frames (though some warpage can apparently be corrected in a first couple hours after welding 6061 aluminum).
> 
> I would imagine ABG is seeing a bent dropout AND twisted looking welds and assuming that something pretty fierce involving the rear wheel happened. And your hanger isn't necessarily bent outwards - we might also be looking at a dropout that has been twisted counter-clockwise so that the top of the drop out running into the seat stay is the part that has been bent. Such a twisting motion would account for the two simultaneous failures AND the bend in the dropout. I would not be surprised to see a similar bend in the other dropout.
> 
> Thinking more about this, perhaps the bend is from the hub pushing up against the seat stay immediately after the weld failed.
> 
> So - two explanations: Something happened sometime (your choice when) that twisted the rear wheel counter-clockwise hard enough to bend the top of the dropout and crack both welds. This would require a huge side impact to the wheel at the rim without the wheel failing.
> 
> The other explanation is that the welds were contaminated, suffered oxygen embrittlement or hydrogen embrittlement. The right side failed, the right side of the hub twisted up, the carbon seatstays flexed enough for the top half of the dropout to bend and the bad weld on the left cracked as it twisted counter-clockwise. This would explain how two bad welds could also bend the dropout without an impact. So I would take that tact with ABG.


In the first explanation, would I be killed :


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## rx-79g

infopete said:


> In the first explanation, would I be killed :


I don't know about that, but it is unlikely that a wheel could transmit that much force to the frame without exploding itself.

Their argument is that the dropout is bent, therefore the bike must have been in an accident. Your argument should be that the right dropout broke, and your body weight bent the top of the now unsupported dropout as the chainstay did all the work.

If they can't disprove your version (as explained to you by some bike shop guru), then they owe you a frame.


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## Jetmugg

Based on the photo shown, that is a brittle failure of the weld. There does not appear to be any kind of deformation along the fracture surface that would indicate any kind of failure other than a brittle failure.

Properly made welds in titanium do not fail in this manner, even with an overload or impact being applied. In any of those cases, you should see a ductile failure, with visible striations and deformation along the fracture surface.

This looks like a "clean" break, which is strongly pointing the finger at in improper weld, which most likely failed due to hydrogen embrittlement.

They must know what a brittle weld failure looks like. Either your pic doesn't look like the actual fracture, or they simply don't want to pay out. The fact that the dropout isn't properly aligned isn't related to the initial failure, it appears to be a result of either residual stresses present before the failure, or plastic deformation after the failure.

SteveM.


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## kidd546

*Litespeed frame failure*

I had a Litespeed Classic frame fail on the same weld on the derallieur side. I had R&A Cycles in Seattle repair it for $180. They said the original weld did not have ehough penetration. By the way they did a beautiful repair of the broken weld.


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## infopete

Hank from Hi Tech Bikes has been in contact with the American Bike Group and ...

They tell me they are adamant that the bike had some kind of impact, whether a crash, a hit, dropped or something. I pushed a bit and they would not budge at all. I am really sorry I could not do more.

Looks like I am doomed. I have a new signature though, what do you think?

"The American Bicycle Group, litespeed · quintana roo · merlin bikes and warranty but not warranty as we know it Jim"

Please use my new signature in everything you can and let's move it to number one slot on Google


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## infopete

I think I need a little more than a good arguement.

Hank from Hi Tech bikes has spoken to them and they are adamant my frame has been in a serious impact.

I'll email the ceo of ABG next but I can guess his response too. :mad2: 

"The American Bicycle Group, litespeed · quintana roo · merlin bikes and warranty but not warranty as we know it Jim"


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## T K

Well, guess you can add them to the list of bikes I won't be buying.


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## draganM

rx-79g said:


> You can't and don't cold set titanium. That's only steel frames (though some warpage can apparently be corrected in a first couple hours after welding 6061 aluminum)..


 really? I'm not and expert on this but if you look at the Moots factory tour video the last step is the "alignment table" for final adjustment. Any frame that doesn't end up right here is sold as B-stock.


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## infopete

I've emailed the CEO, I'm waiting for his response...... if any.

I'll keep you all posted


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## FBinNY

I hope you were tactful and polite, yet firm and on point. Ragging about lousy service and attitude won't win anybody over.

It's one of those attracting flies with honey vs vinegar things.

Good luck.


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## rx-79g

The point I was giving you was that their reasoning for the impact was the bent dropout, and I offered you another explanation that doesn't involve an impact. Did you use it?


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## infopete

I just asked them to look at the pictures and have a word with the warranty department.

If this fails then I'll start being a bit more forceful


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## pmf

infopete said:


> I just asked them to look at the pictures and have a word with the warranty department.
> 
> If this fails then I'll start being a bit more forceful


Or you could just ask them what they'd charge to repair it. That was a waaaay expensive frame in the day. It probably wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks to reweld it.


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## mtbbmet

pmf said:


> Or you could just ask them what they'd charge to repair it. That was a waaaay expensive frame in the day. It probably wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks to reweld it.


There likely can't simply re-weld it due to the carbon stays. They would get destroyed. They would have to disassemble the whole rear end. Bigger job than one may think.


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## Elfstone

T K said:


> Well, guess you can add them to the list of bikes I won't be buying.


Ditto...

Peace


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## infopete

The carbon stays are screwed to the dropout so it is possible to weld the dropout.


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## JacksonDodge

Warranty claims and fulfillment are executed solely at the discretion of the builder. I'd be willing to bet the farm that Merlin has such a Discretion Clause in the Warranty Policy. 

They've decided that it isn't a warranty situation. It's not the outcome you wanted but that's the outcome. Promising to be "more forceful" will not get you to a favorable resolution.


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## nenad

I feel for you Pete, it is quite clear this is a frame failure. Let us know how it works out...bummer...


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## shabbasuraj

Screw ABG. No wonder their entire company are no longer relevant. They will be out of business soon. ... karma... 

(just look at that current carbon mess they are trying to sell, as a bike....... hillarious.....)


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## JayTee

First of all, skip email. Either right a snail mail letter or call. Email just isn't taken seriously. Anyone trying seriously to get a refund needs to send a letter the old-fashioned way. That's point # 1 with such a serious issue. You just aren't going to be taken seriously by sending emails, no matter how high up the food chain you go.

Point # 2, do continue to discuss your problem on websites such as this one. When I had problems with another quality Ti manufacturer (Seven), they MENTIONED that they were aware of my posts on RBR (sweet!).


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## skygodmatt

That's why the cheap frames sell so well....and the warranty service is great too. 

That really sucks to have spent so much hard earned money and not have broken weld fixed.
I'll never buy an exotic frame set for this reason.


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## ClarkinHawaii

JacksonDodge said:


> Warranty claims and fulfillment are executed solely at the discretion of the builder. I'd be willing to bet the farm that Merlin has such a Discretion Clause in the Warranty Policy.
> 
> They've decided that it isn't a warranty situation. It's not the outcome you wanted but that's the outcome. Promising to be "more forceful" will not get you to a favorable resolution.


I think the point here is that "the builder" in this case is (at least) several different people. People further up the food chain may disagree with the guy who said no in the first place. The warranty guy (who said no) is fixated on keeping his department's costs down. The president of the company is probably habituated to looking at the big picture (reputation, future sales, etc) and may well see things differently.

If you go to the trouble of sending a paper letter, be sure to send it certified mail with return receipt requested. Try to address it to a specific individual high up in the company. That way a specific individual is going to be open to take flak if he treats you shabbily. Believe me, this works.


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## rydbyk

*Yep...call!*



JayTee said:


> First of all, skip email. Either right a snail mail letter or call. Email just isn't taken seriously. Anyone trying seriously to get a refund needs to send a letter the old-fashioned way. That's point # 1 with such a serious issue. You just aren't going to be taken seriously by sending emails, no matter how high up the food chain you go.
> 
> Point # 2, do continue to discuss your problem on websites such as this one. When I had problems with another quality Ti manufacturer (Seven), they MENTIONED that they were aware of my posts on RBR (sweet!).



Lame lame lame on ABG. I will never buy any of those brands now. I race on ti mtb, but not those brands! Send them a link to this FORUM! You have been very nice about all this. It might give them a wake up call.


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## atpjunkie

*I'm no metallurgist (sp?)*

but in an impact wouldn't there be some dents and bending as well????? scratches?
fractured CF?????
the bend in the other stay is most likely from it being the only support element under your backside before you noticed the failure

if they won't fix it free, have them send it back. Tell them you'd prefer a qualified person to do the weld and clearly don't trust them as the weld clearly failed and they won't stand behind it


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## infopete

I am trying to make a small claims through the UK courts.

The warranty person in the UK is refusing to give her address at the moment which will make my claim impossible.

But it does look as if they are paying a little more attention


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## JacksonDodge

infopete said:


> I am trying to make a small claims through the UK courts.
> 
> The warranty person in the UK is refusing to give her address at the moment which will make my claim impossible.
> 
> But it does look as if they are paying a little more attention


You really don't get it, do you?

A warranty denial isn't a signal for you to take the company to small claims court. They have a warranty policy set up that provides them with the legal cover to deny any and all warranty claims...at their discretion. You don't really have much say in the matter.

I handle warranty claims for a living and our Warranty Agreement contains clauses that cover situations just like this.

I'm sorry that the outcome was not favorable but you have to accept the fact that they denied the warranty claim and move on.


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## ClarkinHawaii

JacksonDodge said:


> You really don't get it, do you?
> 
> A warranty denial isn't a signal for you to take the company to small claims court. They have a warranty policy set up that provides them with the legal cover to deny any and all warranty claims...at their discretion. You don't really have much say in the matter.
> 
> I handle warranty claims for a living and our Warranty Agreement contains clauses that cover situations just like this.
> 
> I'm sorry that the outcome was not favorable but you have to accept the fact that they denied the warranty claim and move on.


Not everyone shares your viewpoint. Just because some person in the "Warranty Department" says no does not make it definite. Even if it went all the way up the line and even the CEO said no, the CEO could well change his mind if enough pressure is brought to bear in the form of public opinion, harm to reputation, prospective loss of future sales etc.

Some of these guys, like some insurance adjusters, are trained to always say no in the opening volley. If nobody complains, then the no sticks. If somebody complains loudly and publically, it will get kicked upstairs for a second look. The squeaking wheel gets the grease.

The clause you describe, if it exists, may not even be enforceable. Ever heard of "lemon laws"?. If it does exist and is enforceable, there is still public hassle to the company involved, which they may well wish to avoid.
..................................................................................................................................................................
*To the OP: You are doing the right thing in leaving no stone unturned.* If you do as I suggested earlier and send a Certified letter (return receipt) personally addressed to someone high up in the company, post the letter on here and other forums (everywhere you can think of) together with the names of the individuals you are dealing with----they will back down, even if they don't legally have to. It's just easier.

But if you just sigh and accept their NO without a fight, then they have certainly won with minimal effort. Naturally this is what a guy who "handles claims for a small builder" would want you to do.

Edit: Whatever you do, do it respectfully and politely. The only reason they would NEVER back down would be if it would cause them to lose too much face because you have been nasty and demeaning.

You want to make it easy for them to agree to help you because it will make them look like good guys; not because you are bludgeoning them into it. 

Keep personalities out of it--think of it as a game that you're both playing. The more skillful player wins; and if you do as I am suggesting, you will be the more skillful player.


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## Mapei

JacksonDodge said:


> You really don't get it, do you?
> 
> A warranty denial isn't a signal for you to take the company to small claims court. They have a warranty policy set up that provides them with the legal cover to deny any and all warranty claims...at their discretion. You don't really have much say in the matter.
> 
> I handle warranty claims for a living and our Warranty Agreement contains clauses that cover situations just like this.
> 
> I'm sorry that the outcome was not favorable but you have to accept the fact that they denied the warranty claim and move on.


Words like yours just egg people on. Obstinacy breeds obstinacy. Fine print is as ephemeral as the may-fly.

Also, I don't know what the size is of the company the OP is dealing with, and how important the Merlin line of bicycles is to them, but they obviously market luxury items, and luxury items are particularly sensitive to perceptions of quality. The most successful companies are acutely aware of how important it is to maintain the integrity of their brand name(s). An upmarket brand name like Merlin could suffer serious impact if the perception within its market niche became one of "we don't care about you," or "our product falls apart."


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## JacksonDodge

ClarkinHawaii said:


> Not everyone shares your viewpoint. Just because some flunky in the "Warranty Department" says no does not make it definite. Even if it went all the way up the line and even the CEO said no, the CEO could well change his mind if enough pressure is brought to bear in the form of public opinion, harm to reputation, prospective loss of future sales etc.
> 
> Some of these guys, like some insurance adjusters, are trained to always say no in the opening volley. If nobody complains, then the no sticks. If somebody complains loudly and publically, it will get kicked upstairs for a second look. The squeaking wheel gets the grease.
> 
> The clause you describe, if it exists, may not even be enforceable. Ever heard of "lemon laws"?. If it does exist and is enforceable, there is still public hassle to the company involved, which they may well wish to avoid.
> 
> *To the OP: You are doing the right thing in leaving no stone unturned.* If you do as I suggested earlier and send a Certified letter (return receipt) personally addressed to someone high up in the company, post the letter on here and other forums (everywhere you can think of) together with the names of the individuals you are dealing with----they will back down, even if they don't legally have to. It's just easier.
> 
> But if you just sigh and accept their NO without a fight, then they have certainly won with minimal effort. Naturally this is what a guy who "handles claims for a small builder" would want you to do.


Flunky, eh? 

Thanks for demeaning everyone who chooses to build bikes for a living.

How does it benefit any company if their Warranty Policy can be defeated by exerting enough pressure on employees. Why bother having a Warranty Department at all?

Why not just give in and replace everything that comes back? 

As far as I know, Lemon Laws only cover automobiles, RV's, motorcycles and boats.


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## FBinNY

JacksonDodge said:


> Flunky, eh?
> 
> Thanks for demeaning everyone who chooses to build bikes for a living.
> 
> How does it benefit any company if their Warranty Policy can be defeated by exerting enough pressure on employees. Why bother having a Warranty Department at all?
> 
> Why not just give in and replace everything that comes back?


He's not the one demeaning builders or others in the industry, you are.

Yes, manufacturers have warranty policies, and yes manufacturers can deny claims, and yes sometimes, or even often they;re justified in doing so.

*BUT*

That does not make them final arbiters, that's a role reserved to courts, and the OP is entirely within his rights to pursue his claim. 

BTW- IMO the OP won't have much problem getting expert opinions support his claim, and unless Merlin can support they're position with facts, and not assumptions they'll lose. Unfortunately issues of jurisdiction may prevent the OP from getting satisfaction.


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## FBinNY

infopete said:


> I am trying to make a small claims through the UK courts.
> 
> The warranty person in the UK is refusing to give her address at the moment which will make my claim impossible.


While I'm sympathetic to your cause, I think you're out of line pursuing your claim against Merlin's UK agent. 

As you said in an earlier post, you chose to buy the frame directly from the US in order to avoid paying the higher UK price. It's a choice you made and now you need to live with it. 

Unless the UK agent is wholly owned by Merlin, or ABS, they're an innocent third party to the transaction and you have no rightful claim against them.

You may feel wronged, but chasing an innocent party, and making them take your loss, or assume the expense of defending themselves is equally wrong, maybe more so, since it's an intentional act, as opposed to an accident.


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## skygodmatt

What would Tom Kellog say?


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## Jetmugg

I suspect that a re-work of the failed frame might cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $200-$300 in labor and parts.

Merlin's reputation has probably suffered a greater loss than $200-$300 at this point.

I support your effort to keep the pressure on Merlin. Try getting ahold of their US sales manager, he/she will not want to hear about any potential lost sales.

The decisions of warranty claims people are NOT final or legally binding, even if self-important warranty claim deniers think they are. 

Do you think that Toyota had any warranty claims about unintended accelleration? Did they deny any claims? How did that work out for them?

SteveM.


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## JacksonDodge

Jetmugg said:


> The decisions of warranty claims people are NOT final or legally binding, even if self-important warranty claim deniers think they are.
> 
> 
> SteveM.


They're under no obligation to fix or replace his frame. In a great majority of cases the decisions made by warranty managers _are_ final. That's why they're in Warranty. I don't deny many claims but when I do it's not because I'm having a bad day and want to screw someone. I deny a claim because there is a legitimate basis for me to do so. 

From the Merlin site:

_"Some frames may be denied warranty coverage due to crash damage, abuse or cause other than defect in material or workmanship. "_

They denied the claim. Thems is the breaks.


----------



## FBinNY

JacksonDodge said:


> From the Merlin site:
> 
> _"Some frames may be denied warranty coverage due to crash damage, abuse or cause other than defect in material or workmanship. "_
> 
> They denied the claim. Thems is the breaks.


Absolutely right, but there is a burden on Merlin to demonstrate *evidence* of abuse or neglect as a basis of the denial of warranty, and explain how the alleged abuse or neglect contributed to the failure.

Absent of scratches, dents or other physical evidence they would have a hard time prevailing in court, or convincing any neutral observer that they had a legitimate basis for invoking the crash/abuse clause in denying the claim.


----------



## shabbasuraj

ABG you suck.


----------



## nenad

FBinNY said:


> Absolutely right, but there is a burden on Merlin to demonstrate *evidence* of abuse or neglect as a basis of the denial of warranty, and explain how the alleged abuse or neglect contributed to the failure.
> 
> Absent of scratches, dents or other physical evidence they would have a hard time prevailing in court, or convincing any neutral observer that they had a legitimate basis for invoking the crash/abuse clause in denying the claim.


100%. In the other thread the images are HUGE, it is quite clear to anyone with common sense the OP is trying to hide nothing and that he is true. And images themselves tell the whole story.

This is a 100% rightful claim and it makes me said that the company I gave my business to (I own a Litespeed) is behaving the way they are. I will most certainly not buy another product from them.

I will most certainly not do a custom frame by Tom Kellog if he's gonna send the spec to Merlin to build it...

Peace.


----------



## Italianrider76

Someone really needs to make ABG aware of this thread unless someone already has.


----------



## infopete

FBinNY said:


> While I'm sympathetic to your cause, I think you're out of line pursuing your claim against Merlin's UK agent.
> 
> As you said in an earlier post, you chose to buy the frame directly from the US in order to avoid paying the higher UK price. It's a choice you made and now you need to live with it.
> 
> Unless the UK agent is wholly owned by Merlin, or ABS, they're an innocent third party to the transaction and you have no rightful claim against them.
> 
> You may feel wronged, but chasing an innocent party, and making them take your loss, or assume the expense of defending themselves is equally wrong, maybe more so, since it's an intentional act, as opposed to an accident.


The UK warranty person is not an agent, she is an employee of ABG. Therefore, she is the legal representative of ABG in the UK.

ABG are refusing my warranty claim because they think it was in an impact large enough to break both welds. I have told them repeatedly that my Merlin Cielo has never been in an impact.

In the UK such disputes can be decided in court and it is my intention, as a last resort, to take my warranty claim to court.

I would prefer ABG to look at the pictures and realise that I have a valid claim and fix my Merlin.

I'm awaiting a reply from the management of ABG and I'll keep you all informed.

Thank you all for your support.

Pete


----------



## atpjunkie

*for an impact*



infopete said:


> The UK warranty person is not an agent, she is an employee of ABG. Therefore, she is the legal representative of ABG in the UK.
> 
> ABG are refusing my warranty claim because they think it was in an impact large enough to break both welds. I have told them repeatedly that my Merlin Cielo has never been in an impact.
> 
> In the UK such disputes can be decided in court and it is my intention, as a last resort, to take my warranty claim to court.
> 
> I would prefer ABG to look at the pictures and realise that I have a valid claim and fix my Merlin.
> 
> I'm awaiting a reply from the management of ABG and I'll keep you all informed.
> 
> Thank you all for your support.
> 
> Pete


to break a weld like that there should be other damage

I'd get the bike back, send it to someone else for repair and analysis. Pay the $ (not to Merlin) and get a full on materials review, then sell the repaired frame. If the review from an independent expert comes back like most of us suspect it will, you can either sue ABG for the repair/analysis money or just spend a deal of your time bad mouthing them

heck maybe send it to the original owner of Merlin for his opinion, maybe he won't care, maybe he'll support the new ownership. Maybe he'll be pissed at what is being done to the brand he built


----------



## JacksonDodge

atpjunkie said:


> to break a weld like that there should be other damage


From the original post:
_ The rest of the frame does have damage as indicated through the photos..._

How many photos did Merlin send back? I don't think we're seeing all the evidence here.


----------



## FBinNY

infopete said:


> I think I need a little more than a good argument.
> 
> Hank from Hi Tech bikes has spoken to them and they are adamant my frame has been in a serious impact.
> 
> I'll email the ceo of ABG next but I can guess his response too. :mad2:


I understand that "impact damage" is the basis for their denial, and it's a perfectly valid argument. Did they cite any particular basis for their assertion, or point to evidence of the alleged impact, such as a dent, ripple, bend or scratch in their denial letter?

Claims are just that, claims. You claim it was never crashed, they claim it was. It's your word against theirs, but since you would know (though you may lie) and they *can't know* except by physical evidence, it's up to them to demonstrate the validity of their position by that evidence. 

Apparently this is headed to court, and a neutral party will judge the evidence (the bike) and the credibility of both parties and render a verdict one way or the other.

BTW- do not have anyone work on or repair the frame, because that would destroy any evidence.


----------



## infopete

JacksonDodge said:


> From the original post:
> _ The rest of the frame does have damage as indicated through the photos..._
> 
> How many photos did Merlin send back? I don't think we're seeing all the evidence here.


I posted the pictures that I thought were relevant however, I will post the others tomorrow.


----------



## infopete

These are all the picture ABG sent me.


----------



## FBinNY

So the hanger tab is bent outward. If it were bent inward that might lead one to believe it was the result of a crash. But crashes don't bend it outward, so are they planning to argue that someone bent it intentionally?

In any case it's impossible to tell whether the misaligned hanger is the cause of the weld failure, or the result of it. 

I've been in this industry a long time, and think that -- regardless of what they truly believe,, or whatever the actual truth of the matter is -- they're holding a losing hand, and would not prevail in a court of law.

As the song says, you have to know when to fold them, and since this won't end well for them ABG would have been better off to recognize how poor their and was, and settled with you long ago rather than drag it out this far.

As it is, they're going to warranty the frame, and not get any credit as good guys along the way..


----------



## krisdrum

I want a picture of the outside of the non-drive side chainstay.


----------



## Quattro_Assi_07

*Thank you so much for posting...*

...about your Merlin experience. I had planned on buying an XLM 29er through my LBS. I had narrower it down to that and one other, both carried by my LBS. Merlin's poor performance with respect to warranty claims has now made my decision much easier.

Again, much thanks.

James D.


----------



## wim

FBinNY said:


> So the hanger tab is bent outward..


Strictly speaking, there's no proof of even that. The only thing the picture conclusively shows is that a ruler hand-held in free space is not parallel with a dropout. Why that is so is anyone's guess. What's missing is the all-important reference line (vertical center line of the frame).

/w


----------



## infopete

The crazy thing about all of this is I was looking out for a Merlin Works CR 6/4 :nono:


----------



## infopete

Hi Krisdum,

Two pictures instead


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

wim said:


> Strictly speaking, there's no proof of even that. The only thing the picture conclusively shows is that a ruler hand-held in free space is not parallel with a dropout. Why that is so is anyone's guess. What's missing is the all-important reference line (vertical center line of the frame).
> 
> /w


This is what I've been thinking. I can see no evidence of collision. So their only grounds for refusing the claim is that unreferenced ruler hanging in space . . . ??


----------



## FBinNY

*My apologies. I should have been clearer* in the earlier post when I said "So the hanger is bent outward" I wasn't stating it as a fact, just inferring their premise for refusing to warranty the frame. 

As others have commented, that doesn't prove anything, since it could be aligned to the wheel plane, could have been that way all along, or might be spring because of the break. Whatever it _proves_ they'll have a tough time convincing anybody that it caused the weld to fail. 

My point is that Merlin has a weak hand, and I don't believe they could prevail in a court of law any more than they're doing in the court of public opinion.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

That's OK, FB--We still love 'ya


----------



## bmxhacksaw

Clearly, the imbalance caused by the presta valve stem nut on the rear wheel and its absence on the front wheel is the culprit. Alas, such noobery is not covered under waranty.


----------



## roadie01

As a former LBS employee and someone who has had some welding instruction (not titanium) it would apear that the weld was defective. I've encountered broken frames before with the typical JRA stories. When there has been an impact and the weld is correctly done the tube surrounding the weld will fail before the weld. I don't see any damage to the tubing surrounding the weld. The weld is cracked through the middle of the weld it's self. Which would lead me to believe that the environment was compromised when the weld was performed. In order to correctly weld titanium you must have a protective environment or vacuum to prevent contamination from the outside air. 

To pass my welding instruction I had to weld two pieces of steel together, then bend the metal to the point of failure, if the weld broke I failed, if the metal broke but left the weld intact I passed. 

If not cost prohibitive I would recomend getting a second opinion from and independant provider that specializes in titanium weld analysis. Then provide that to ABG along with a request to reconsider the denial of your claim. 

Even if Merlin / ABG refuses to honor your claim the good news is you can have the frame repaired by a reputable titanium builder.


----------



## infopete

bmxhacksaw does one have to put the presta valve nut on a Macic Ksyrium?

I can see why the warranty department thought it had been in a crash now....... speed wobble


----------



## baker921

Double post


----------



## baker921

Your best course of action is to tell Merlin that you intend to sue in the small claims court. If you Google it you will get an HM government website for info and all the forms you need.
You pay a small admin fee and the beauty of the system for you is even if you loose you are not liable for the other sides legal costs. Most firms fold at the 11th hour or don't turn up and loose in absentia once they calculate the cost of lost employee time and maybe legal representation even if they win.

Your stuck in a lift with Hitler, Stalin and a lawyer; your gun only has 2 bullets. Who do you shoot? 
The lawyer. Twice. just to make sure!

PS Your photos are totally screwing with my screen.


----------



## aptivaboy

Sorry about this. I've worked with some students who are also into ROP (occupation classes), including welding, and showed them the pics. Their opinion is a weld failure. Granted, they're students, not welding instructors or experts, but they say the break's size, shape and location makes a weld failure the clear culprit. I'll take their word on it. 

More on point for Merlin/ABG, I won't be buying a frame from them if this is how they treat clear workmanship issues. I recall seeing that carbon/titanium material on a Youtube video, perhaps from NAHBS or the San Diego show, I forget which, and really wanted one. I'm not really into the high tech stuff, being more of a retro steel guy, but this looked so interesting that I thought that I might, just might, save up some money for it over the next year. No longer. I'll just stick with antique steel. At least it can be easily repaired at a frame shop, and the frame will likely cost far less to begin with. I rarely spend a lot of money, and when I do its important that I buy from someone who will stand behind their product. 

As a Yank, my apologies that the AMERICAN Bike Group has screwed you. 

You may also want to refer them to this thread. It can't hurt showing them the bad press they're getting here, and wherever else you've posted. As an idea, why not set up a small website with the photos and the correspondence from ABG on it? Everytime someone does a search for "Merlin" guess what will come up?


----------



## tarwheel2

Here's an example of a comparable warranty issue I had with a Casio watch, and how I resolved it. A while ago I bought a Casio solar-powered sport watch that was supposed to be water resistant to 100 meters or something like that. It had a 1-year warranty. Six months after I bought the watch, it fogged up after getting caught riding in the rain and then quit working. I called Casio and mailed the watch to them, per their instructions for warranty issues. I assumed they would send me a new watch. Instead they sent me a bill for $50 (more than I paid for the watch) and said they would fix it for that amount, claiming that I had damaged the watch (which I had not). 

I called them several times pleading my points and wrote a letter, but they refused to budge. So I filed a complaint with the consumer protection division with the NC Attorney General's Office. The AG's Office sent them a letter asking them to explain they refused to honor my warranty, along with my explanation. 

All of the sudden, Casio became very understanding. One of their lawyers called me, saying they had reviewed my case and decided to send me a replacement watch. They also asked to write my AG's Office, telling them I had withdrawn my complaint. They did send me a new watch, but I never sent a letter to the AG. As far as I was concerned, Casio put me through a whole bunch of trouble over a stupid $50 watch, and it probably ended up costing them a whole lot more in legal fees, and I'm glad. I will also never buy another Casio product.

I say stick it to them (Merlin). What good are warranties if manufacturers won't honor them? If consumers don't fight back and hold their feet to the fire, a lot of companies will just screw them.


----------



## T K

I was getting ready for a ride and had my bike leaning up against the wall in my living room. My 15 month old daughter knocked my bike over, it fell over onto a wall to wall carpeted floor and it bent the der. hanger. I noticed It when I went for the ride and It was hitting the spokes. Sooo, even if, it does not take much to bend a hanger. Just sayin. I'm glad no welds were broken in the process. It wasn't a Merlin.


----------



## rx-79g

T K said:


> I was getting ready for a ride and had my bike leaning up against the wall in my living room. My 15 month old daughter knocked my bike over, it fell over onto a wall to wall carpeted floor and it bent the der. hanger. I noticed It when I went for the ride and It was hitting the spokes. Sooo, even if, it does not take much to bend a hanger. Just sayin. I'm glad no welds were broken in the process. It wasn't a Merlin.


Not only was it not a Merlin, it wasn't a titanium hanger, either.

Titanium is really, really, really, really difficult to bend. Call around sometime to good shops asking to respace an old 126mm Ti frame to 130 (2mm per side) and see what kind of responses you get. There really is not practical way of bending or alignings titanium with hand tools or light impacts. 

Steel you can bend. Aluminum, if it isn't too thick will bend - a couple of times. 6/4 dropouts might bend, but you'd probably have to crank it over 25 degrees to get 5 degrees of set, if it didn't simply break in the process, or brake the tool you were trying to bend it with.

Something pretty heavy happened to that bent dropout. But the bend is slight, and is probably localized at the narrow top of the dropout where it is thinnest, and took a combination of Infopete's body weight and a firm bump to deflect it far enough to bend.

TK - get you hanger fixed.


----------



## T K

Ya, actually I went to the LBS to pick up a new hanger for another bike (stick got jammed in chain and tore off hanger and der.)the manager said he recomended the cheaper aluminum hangers so they break and not yer frame. Made sense.


----------



## infopete

I've just sent an email to:

'[email protected]'; '[email protected]';

'[email protected]'; '[email protected]'

I'm hoping to extend my email list if anyone knows of senior contacts within ABG.

Also I am investigating making a small claim in the UK courts however, Hannah Conlin, the UK employee of ABG, refuses to give me the UK work address so I'm stuck as this is required to server the court papers.

I've also asked ABG how much the frame will cost to repair.

I'm surrounded by snow at the moment so I don't need my "best" bike until the spring..... and I have a sneaky feeling it will take that long.


----------



## ewitz

http://investing.businessweek.com/r...previousTitle=The American Bicycle Group, LLC


----------



## infopete

Hi ewitz,

I tried Glen Harston but his email bounced


----------



## FatTireFred

http://construction.zibb.co.uk/profile/american+bicycle+group/gb/swindon/sn5+7xg/34153451

call the number and ask for hannah to confirm that it's the correct address


----------



## infopete

The office in Swindon was closed a few years ago.

The woman who has their telephone number gets about 3 calls a day.


----------



## FatTireFred

infopete said:


> The office in Swindon was closed a few years ago.
> 
> The woman who has their telephone number gets about 3 calls a day.




ask a UK dealer for their local contact?


----------



## infopete

I have asked the warranty guy at Evans Cycles and he hasn't replied.


----------



## wim

rx-79g said:


> Something pretty heavy happened to that bent dropout..


As per a previous post, I'm not entirely convinced the hanger is bent. You seem to be very sure, but on what evidence?


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

infopete said:


> I've just sent an email to:
> 
> '[email protected]'; '[email protected]';
> 
> '[email protected]'; '[email protected]'
> 
> I'm hoping to extend my email list if anyone knows of senior contacts within ABG.
> 
> Also I am investigating making a small claim in the UK courts however, Hannah Conlin, the UK employee of ABG, refuses to give me the UK work address so I'm stuck as this is required to server the court papers.
> 
> I've also asked ABG how much the frame will cost to repair.
> 
> I'm surrounded by snow at the moment so I don't need my "best" bike until the spring..... and I have a sneaky feeling it will take that long.


This is good. Actually made me smile. I'd like to see the actual text of the emails. That would be a lot more authentic than just a statement that you sent emails.

Also, it seems to me that a corporate entity doing business in the UK or USA cannot be allowed to hide it's physical place of business, sort of like a criminal enterprise. Anybody know more about the legality of this?


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

Actually, I'd like to see a bunch of people from this forum send emails to the ABG email addresses listed above. 

For subject put "Your Public Relations/Law Suit"

For the body of the message just put a link to this thread.

It would only take a minute and would surely get their attention.

Edit: I just sent my "Message of Joy" to the 4 email addresses listed above. How about you guys?

Also, as of right now, this thread has had 91 replies and 3757 views. I wonder how many customers Merlin has lost?


----------



## infopete

ClarkinHawaii, I could not possibly agree with any form of spam ever ever ever


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

infopete said:


> ClarkinHawaii, I could not possibly agree with any form of spam ever ever ever


Well, you caught me by surprise, as I had never considered the possibility that this was spam. In a flush of shame, I actually looked up the definition of spam (from Wikipedia):
"Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages* indiscriminately*".

All things considered, though, it would certainly be *harassment* (which was my intention); and I can certainly see why you would want to disassociate yourself from it. 

I have to admit, I'm more than a bit rabid on this subject--I am a veteran of the days before internet, when companies really could (and did) screw customers like you right and left and there was really nothing you could do about it.

I hope you prevail, taking the high road. It's certainly better, if it works.


----------



## andym

We had an issue with my wife's Litespeed that we weren't happy with the results of. I assembled the bike and we found they mounted the bottle bosses on the seattube so high, you couldn't fit a normal size bottle in the frame. I talked to Jason in their warranty dept and he said they could fix it right up with a lower mount. Once they received the frame he saw it had a limited edition Tour of Georgia paint scheme and called to let me know could fix the bottle boss but couldn't repaint that scheme. I called BS on that and we argued via phone calls for a few days. He then decides that their engineers designed it that way and they wouldn't change the boss since the frame was designed for a 12oz bottle. What adult uses a 12oz bottle? He then says they found a paint defect known to frames of that time period and offered to repaint it in the Tour of Georgia paint scheme. Six weeks later we finally get the repainted frame back with the unchanged bottle boss. The LBS hooked us up with a strap on boss that fixed it right up. ABG's customer service has been on a downhill slide for awhile. When I decided to get a carbon bike I could have got a great deal on a Litespeed but couldn't bring myself to buy anything from them. If you write a letter to their president, you might just be writing one to their warranty guy at the same time. Their reduction in ti bikes for Litespeed to me is a form of outsourcing.

Sorry to ramble.


----------



## Jetmugg

Email sent.


----------



## infopete

ClarkinHawaii, I don't mind people emailing ABG stating their concerns about their warranty policy, that is perfectly in order.

But spam is not.

It's a fine line


----------



## atpjunkie

*I can think of one thing*



wim said:


> As per a previous post, I'm not entirely convinced the hanger is bent. You seem to be very sure, but on what evidence?


the weld at the stay broke
that means for however long he rode it after it broke there was no lateral support on the drive side, so the riders weight was being supported only by the hanger and seat stay.
Rider weight and pedal force would most likely cause area to 'squat' which would ben piece OUTWARD


----------



## rx-79g

atpjunkie said:


> the weld at the stay broke
> that means for however long he rode it after it broke there was no lateral support on the drive side, so the riders weight was being supported only by the hanger and seat stay.
> Rider weight and pedal force would most likely cause area to 'squat' which would ben piece OUTWARD


Yup. That's what I said in post #19 last week.


----------



## hjsalazar

im sorry to hear about your frame. this is very bad for Merlin. tsk tsk tsk... i hope mine doesn't break..


----------



## infopete

Hi hjsalazar,

I hope yours does not break, I loved my Merlin it was my pride and joy. 

Oh and maybe I should mention Merlin warranty.... or lack of!

Googling Litespeed shows up a few disgruntled owners too.


----------



## atpjunkie

*well it seems*



rx-79g said:


> Yup. That's what I said in post #19 last week.


quite logical to me, glad I am not alone


----------



## Keeping up with Junior

*Logic?*



atpjunkie said:


> quite logical to me, glad I am not alone


Just one thing that makes me a little curious. The rear wheel in the pics does not match the front wheel. For you experts (not me) would the impact sufficient to destroy a wheel have been able to cause the weld to break or the derailer to bend? My thinking is the wheel should be the weak point and an impact on the wheel would not be sufficient to cause the frame damage.

Disclaimer... not all my wheels match either when I am JRA. I own a Merlin too.


----------



## infopete

My other mavic wheel was visited by the puncture fairy and as my wife is inheriting both mavic wheels I took it off.

I have a great selection of wheels


----------



## Keeping up with Junior

*Wicked Woman*



infopete said:


> My other mavic wheel was visited by the puncture fairy...


That B!tch visited me on Sunday. Fortunately I was just rolling into the driveway when I noticed the soft tire. My wife can't borrow/steal/inherit my wheels since they dont fit in her 650c frame.


----------



## wim

Keeping up with Junior said:


> My thinking is the wheel should be the weak point


You would think so, but it's not the case. There are many crash accounts in which a frame or fork suffers damage with the wheel suffering no damage. The classic is the front-wheel jam, in which a fork gets bent or has its legs sheared off and the front wheel not only remains intact, but doesn't even come out of true.


----------



## lav25

A differnet view on the failure - since the chainstay is welded to the drop out and then bolted to the seatstay, I would assume that ABG skips an alignment of the free standing chainstay - as in the chainstay was offset when bolted to the seatstay - after 10k+ cycles, the additional stress from improperly aligned frame contributed to the failure. Or, the supposedly bent from impact dropout returned to its pre-bolted position, which was as it looks in the picture, when the cracked weld freed it from its original position. On another note, I have several friends who had warranty issues at ABG, every one of them was a "not covered, but we can sell you a new model for 1k$" In one case, a guy actually got 2 frames for 1k$ each! I do own two Litespeeds, not bad bkes.


----------



## GirchyGirchy

wim said:


> You would think so, but it's not the case. There are many crash accounts in which a frame or fork suffers damage with the wheel suffering no damage. The classic is the front-wheel jam, in which a fork gets bent or has its legs sheared off and the front wheel not only remains intact, but doesn't even come out of true.


I had that happen - ran into the back of a stopped car. Tire, tube, rim, etc all fine, but the fork was bent back slightly.


----------



## infopete

lav25, they have offered to sell me a new frame. The new Cielo though is not a patch on mine, it's just not as pretty.

The issue is that they are effectively calling me a liar by saying the bike was in an impact when it has not. Furthermore, they are refusing to back up their belief with any facts or science.

In reality, as you've pointed out, they would rather just sell another bike.


----------



## K.Pak

What a total fail on their part.
Nice bikes yet thanks for sharing, Merlin is off the list now. Moots, here I come !

They're trying to persuade you to buying a frameset w/ a discount thinking
"Hey, we'll give this guy a deal at this price so maybe he'll forget about everything with satisfaction" but I'd say you go through with this because I'm sure their were a lot of people that had to deal with this and got offered a new frameset too for a low price yet someone has to intercept this and you're the one with the spotlight.


----------



## T K

skronglite said:


> We'll get you all taken care of.
> 
> http://skronglite.blogspot.com/2010/12/holiday-must-have-skronglite-saw-and.html


Somebody has too much free time.
Too bad I just wasted some of mine reading that stupid sh!t!!!!:frown2:


----------



## infopete

Last night I had a phone call from a man at ABG.

My post on the UK Bikeradar forum has been reported to the police and is now locked.

On a positive note, they have offered to replace my Merlin. I am waiting for a letter detailing their offer.

Because of the issue with the police, I will be less visible on here until I fully understand the ramifications of ABG's actions.

Thank you all for your support.

Pete


----------



## raymonda

infopete said:


> Last night I had a phone call from a man at ABG.
> 
> My post on the UK Bikeradar forum has been reported to the police and is now locked.
> 
> On a positive note, they have offered to replace my Merlin. I am waiting for a letter detailing their offer.
> 
> Because of the issue with the police, I will be less visible on here until I fully understand the ramifications of ABG's actions.
> 
> Thank you all for your support.
> 
> Pete


They don't have freedom of speech in Europe. Best of luck!


----------



## Gaear Grimsrud

infopete said:


> Bikeradar forum has been reported to the police and is now locked.
> 
> On a positive note, they have offered to replace my Merlin. I am waiting for a letter detailing their offer.


Congrats on the replacement, though I would press instead for a refund so you never have to deal with Merlin again.

If you haven't, save or print the locked topic for your records, so they can't "embellish" later.


----------



## Jetmugg

Keep emailing Merlin sales in the US, UK, and wherever. Their reputation is falling faster than something heavy falling from someplace high.


----------



## rx-79g

Strong arm tactics, either from large retailers, boards or legal avenues seem to be effective and often necessary. That's too bad.


----------



## skygodmatt

infopete said:


> Last night I had a phone call from a man at ABG.
> 
> My post on the UK Bikeradar forum has been reported to the police and is now locked.
> 
> On a positive note, they have offered to replace my Merlin. I am waiting for a letter detailing their offer.
> 
> Because of the issue with the police, I will be less visible on here until I fully understand the ramifications of ABG's actions.
> 
> Thank you all for your support.
> 
> Pete


Let us know what you said when the time is right. We would like to know. Its called free speech first amendment rights here in the good old USA.


----------



## andresmuro

skronglite said:


> We'll get you all taken care of.
> 
> http://skronglite.blogspot.com/2010/12/holiday-must-have-skronglite-saw-and.html


Do you have the polymer joints for steel and ti? I have a couple of bikes that I'd like to make travel bikes.


----------



## atpjunkie

*just*



Gaear Grimsrud said:


> Congrats on the replacement, though I would press instead for a refund so you never have to deal with Merlin again.
> 
> If you haven't, save or print the locked topic for your records, so they can't "embellish" later.



sell the replacement frame as soon as it arrives


----------



## IronDonut

*Just got screwed by ABG too*

Don't feel alone. I just had a Litespeed mountain bike fail at the weld joint. It also looks like a poor quality weld. 

ABG denied the warranty claim. 

With story after story about this company flaking on their warranties why would anyone in the know do business with them?


----------



## infopete

I've just had two very nice policemen visit me with the view of giving me a harassment warning notice.

I pointed out I have been trying to get a work address for the American Bike Group in the UK so I can make a small claims in the UK courts.

I also pointed out I have not been harassing anyone and, at all times, I have tried to be polite and fair. 

They've gone to discuss the matter with the policeman that asked them to visit me.

It's not very nice having the police turn up at night, Mrs P wasn't happy at all.

I'll let you all know what happens ......

Pete


----------



## FBinNY

infopete said:


> I've just had two very nice policemen visit me with the view of giving me a harassment warning notice.
> 
> I pointed out I have been trying to get a work address for the American Bike Group in the UK so I can make a small claims in the UK courts.


I don't know about the UK court system, but here in New York, they'd need to furnish a response address to file their complaint. Ask the police about that, and that may give you the info you need to file your suit.

After that win your case in a court of law, because the court of public opinion, while it might give you some sense of satisfaction, will not get you financial satisfaction.


----------



## infopete

Hi All,

The man from the American Bicycle Group has emailed me to say an offer is on it's way.

The offer includes a Litespeed carbon frame and "terms".

I've looked at the Litespeed site at their carbon range and I can't help feeling that offering me a Litespeed carbon frame to replace my rather expensive and beautiful Merlin Cielo is like a Bentley owner taking his car to be serviced and returning with a Skoda. Do you think I'm being too picky?

And.... there are much promised "terms"!


----------



## Kuma601

Amazing...and in a shaking head kinda way. Not knowing what was posted in the UK forums, even so, calling the police... :frown2: With the warranty as stated, they could have handled this in a manner more reasonably. CS like that isn't going to speak well of a company and it goes worldwide in a click. 

My best for a resolution that will make you


----------



## Jetmugg

I vote for not accepting the Litespeed and "terms". I think you deserve to have your Cielo fixed under warranty to your satisfaction. 

This shouldn't be about minimizing the cost to ABG. This should be about pleasing you, the customer.

My 2 cents.

SteveM


----------



## roadie01

The Litespeed carbon frames can be found at sale prices all over the net. If your a titanum rider and prefer titanium you should insist they replace or fix your titanium bike. 

Pretty raw deal in my opinon, offer you a bike with less than stellar sales. 

"Terms" That will be interesting to see.


----------



## louise

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12744794&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


----------



## krisdrum

All that says to me is their carbon wonderbike is less expensive to make than your frame is to repair. If it were my frame, with all the uniqueness that goes with it, that would be a no deal. I'd tell them they had two choices. Fix the frame or send the frame back to me, at their expense and I would bill them for having it fixed locally if an inspection showed that the weld was faulty.


----------



## rx-79g

Screw that.


----------



## infopete

rx-79g said:


> Screw that.


Haha that made me laugh :mad2:


----------



## BetweenRides

infopete said:


> Hi All,
> 
> The man from the American Bicycle Group has emailed me to say an offer is on it's way.
> 
> The offer includes a Litespeed carbon frame and "terms".
> 
> I've looked at the Litespeed site at their carbon range and I can't help feeling that offering me a Litespeed carbon frame to replace my rather expensive and beautiful Merlin Cielo is like a Bentley owner taking his car to be serviced and returning with a Skoda. Do you think I'm being too picky?
> 
> And.... there are much promised "terms"!


Infopete:

I've been following this thread for a while. Sorry about your situation - as an owner of a Merlin Cyrene for over 6 years, I hope I never have to test out their warranty service. I have about 25,000 miles on mine and it has been the perfect bike. I don't know how you feel about switching from a Ti/Carbon mix to full Carbon, so if that doesn't suit you, maybe consider getting a full Ti (ie, Cyrene) if they will 'negotiate' with you. Might eliminate the bonding issues you have experienced and if I do say, it's a beautiful bike, on par with your Cielo. Good luck with whatever happens and keep us in the loop.


----------



## infopete

BetweenRides said:


> Infopete:
> 
> I've been following this thread for a while. Sorry about your situation - as an owner of a Merlin Cyrene for over 6 years, I hope I never have to test out their warranty service. I have about 25,000 miles on mine and it has been the perfect bike. I don't know how you feel about switching from a Ti/Carbon mix to full Carbon, so if that doesn't suit you, maybe consider getting a full Ti (ie, Cyrene) if they will 'negotiate' with you. Might eliminate the bonding issues you have experienced and if I do say, it's a beautiful bike, on par with your Cielo. Good luck with whatever happens and keep us in the loop.


My impression about the man from ABG, who is making the offer, is he is not the negotiating type. I think he sees me as a little problem he can sort in a few moments by throwing a shiny trinket my way.

Problem is a Litespeed carbon frame isn't shiny enough.


----------



## Plum

Well, if nothing else, a functional carbon frame is better than a busted Ti one, although i would push for a Ti replacement.

Ultimately, their warranty is written with a clear bias in their favor, I'm not sure they're legally required to do anything. I'm no lawyer, and despite what appears to be the right thing to do, there may be no solid legal recourse..

Plum


----------



## nenad

there may also be no solid sales course...if you know what I'm getting at


----------



## Mike Overly

Just read this thread and then read the Merlin warranties for current and former models. It's very clear that their legal twits have completely contradicted any brand or industry posturing that suggests titanium frames are fatigue proof or lifetime purchases. If you're an owner of a Merlin manufactured prior to 2001 your previous "lifetime" warranty consists of being invited to pay for repair or a frame upgrade if anything fails.

Attorneys enjoy writing stuff like this more than five minutes alone with a skin mag, but the fact that no one at a high level in the company sees how this kind of long, weasely warranty disclaimer diminishes the company as a high-end bike purveyor speaks volumes.

As others have said, best to vote with your wallets. These guys are short-timers.


----------



## skygodmatt

Guess what?

That new carbon frame you're getting is not going to have a "Lifetime Warranty" under ABG "terms" is it? 

There is a significant chance that a carbon frame will break in the next 10 years. 
I am glad I am the original owner of my new carbon frame and it has a real Lifetime Warranty.

Novel idea: Why don't they just fix your frame? That frame is way better than a mass produced Asian carbon frame like mine. They make them for about $300.


----------



## alexb618

they sent the police to your house for harassment?

wow, time to call the lawyers in.


----------



## rcekstrom

alexb618 said:


> they sent the police to your house for harassment?
> 
> wow, time to call the lawyers in.



Agreed. Things in the UK might be different, but here we would make them wish they never denied your claim.

Try and find an attorney who is a fellow rider to do this pro-bono, he seeks out justice from a bike manufacturer strong arming the little guy and you get a brand new Ti bike.

I cannot understand why they would give you a new bike that is not even close to the same as your old. Different label and material, and probably the sizing is different too. It could cost them $200 max to repaid and ship the original bike back to you which is all you really wanted in the first place and we would all move on, the this is ridiculous.


----------



## T K

Here is what's really going on. 
ABG has too many of those ugly a$$, desperate to save the company, carbon obortions that no one is buying lying around and would love to give you one to go away. Meanwhile, somebody who works there wants your frame to put in his office for lunch rides. Or, they can resell your frame easier and for more profit than aforesaid carbon POS.
I mean how hard would it be to carry your frame down to the shop, hand it to Joe Welder and say, "hey grind these welds off and reweld it, I'll be back to get it in 10 minutes. Thanks". I mean really. Really?!!!


----------



## rcekstrom

Whatever you decide make sure you get that frame back!!! 

You can have a local fix it and sell the lightspeed carbon they give you on ebay to pay for the re-weld and the rest can be restitution.


----------



## andym

During our Litespeed/ABG ordeal, I spoke with the guys at Lynskey about repairing it. I'd be they would be willing to do the repairs.


----------



## infopete

I've been offered a Litespeed C1 by the man from ABG, I don't want one and I have suggested they replace my Merlin Cielo with a Merlin Extralight. 

The Extralight is a much cheaper model than the Cielo but I think it's the only bike Merlin make now. 

Anyway, the man from ABG says it's a Litespeed C1 or nowt! 

It's time to "up" the pressure on ABG. 

What do you suggest I do next? 

What other forums should I start to post on?


----------



## draganM

it blows my mind that in UK police can be sent to your house for something posted on an internet forum? Wow, just wow! 
Anyone ever see Brazil? It's wierd to see that movie coming true in 2010.

Pete you can either take the Carbon frame and sell it to pay for the repairs or take them to court. However considering your situation with the Police visit and the fact that a company like ABG can hire expensive lawyers, you might be counter-sued for whatever damages the company can convince the judge you caused to their business.
That's probably the entire reason for the their complaint to the Police. It's the lawyers way of building a case with documented "prior events" that make this rotten company look like the "victim". It's disgusting, I hope ABG goes to bankruptcy hell for this.


----------



## alexb618

take their carbon abortion, sell it on ebay and use the money to get your ti frame fixed by someone who is not completely useless


----------



## Jetmugg

I'm guessing that within their "terms" is a clause that once you accept their POS carbon frame, you will never see the cielo again, so the "sell the carbon frame to pay for weld repairs" probably won't work.


----------



## T K

Jetmugg said:


> I'm guessing that within their "terms" is a clause that once you accept their POS carbon frame, you will never see the cielo again, so the "sell the carbon frame to pay for weld repairs" probably won't work.


Yes, where is everyone getting "I get a new carbon frame AND my other frame back"?
I would at this point tell them to just send me my frame back and go to hell mother f*ckers!!
F*ck em. Move on!


----------



## skygodmatt

Ya....LOL.

Don't give up your Cielo. The "Man" is going to have one of his welders fix it and be riding YOUR sweet bike on the club rides.

I rode your Cielo. It rides totally awesome. 
I rode the C1. It rides like a jackhammer. I wanted off in 45 minutes. The chain stays are too short and there's no seat stay or post give. 

The C1 was only designed for one purpose only--- to go really FAST at high speed. 
It accomplished that goal. If your focus is to have a Crit bike or pull the line at 27 mph then it's great. Otherwise, that frame is not light or comfortable at all. 

There's no way in hell I would part with your Cielo. I wished I could afford one when I rode it.


----------



## andresmuro

You tube has been a place where people have taken their grievances before with some return on investment. You could up the ante by telling ABG that you are considering posting your grievances on You tube.


----------



## skygodmatt

This page has over 7600 views so far. 

There is some damage being done to ABG no doubt. 
They should have just fixed your dam frame.


----------



## ciclisto

you certainly have enough feedback time to chill and get a new bike weld the old one or throw it away.........finito!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Elfstone

Dude, as most people have already mentioned, whatever you do, please get your Cielo back. You've got a really sweet bike and I would rather have the Cielo fixed, then end up on the Litespeed C1. Your Cielo is a classic, worth getting a good person to repair it.

Peace


----------



## AeolusRME

I have a pre-ABG Merlin frame I bought back when I worked at a LBS, 15 years old now. It was the 50th tailor custom frame built under a custom program they started in 1995. Tom Kellogg reviewed my design, and made appropriate changes... actually he only shortened my top tube by 5mm, the rest of my design he approved. It was built by Matt O'Keefe, now of Seven Cycles. The bike was delivered and built on St. Patrick's Day, 1995. It was perfectly aligned and balls on 130 dropout spacing, something we rarely saw on Litespeeds of the era, but the Merlin we sold were always perfect.

It had a weld fail on the drive side dropout and ABG would not honor the original "lifetime-warranty" for the repair. I coughed up $500+ dollars to have them fix the one weld because I am really attached to the bike. What caused the crack? I don't know... after 14 years of service, and plenty of crashes in category races, maybe it was my fault. So I didn't complain about paying for it.

Since I got the bike back though, it is not the same. The frame has an alignment issue that causes the chain to drop off to the outside of my chainring when I'm really putting the pressure on. It only happens in one spot, when the left pedal in near the bottom of the stroke and I'm in my big ring and the 11, 12 and sometime 13 tooth cogs in the back. There are a few other little indicators that the chainline is just a bit out, enought that the frame flex in these conditions causes a derailment of the chain. Also, the dropouts ar now space a fuzz of 129mm.

Merlin, or rather ABG, will not return any of my communications to asking if this can be resolved... and it pisses me off. I would prefer them to just say, "sorry... get a new bike" than to not hear anything.

Anyway, that's my rant... My advice it steer clear of ABG products, as they obviously don't take care of their customers, honor the warranties of the brands they have absorbed, and it seems as though they don't even support their staff, as at least three Ti companies have formed from people leaving ABG... Lynsky, Pride... and the third company does not come to mind and may be defunct now.

Thanks for reading... and I'm with the OP... ABG needs a little hit in sales to wake them up.


----------



## atpjunkie

*sorry to hear*



AeolusRME said:


> I have a pre-ABG Merlin frame I bought back when I worked at a LBS, 15 years old now. It was the 50th tailor custom frame built under a custom program they started in 1995. Tom Kellogg reviewed my design, and made appropriate changes... actually he only shortened my top tube by 5mm, the rest of my design he approved. It was built by Matt O'Keefe, now of Seven Cycles. The bike was delivered and built on St. Patrick's Day, 1995. It was perfectly aligned and balls on 130 dropout spacing, something we rarely saw on Litespeeds of the era, but the Merlin we sold were always perfect.
> 
> It had a weld fail on the drive side dropout and ABG would not honor the original "lifetime-warranty" for the repair. I coughed up $500+ dollars to have them fix the one weld because I am really attached to the bike. What caused the crack? I don't know... after 14 years of service, and plenty of crashes in category races, maybe it was my fault. So I didn't complain about paying for it.
> 
> Since I got the bike back though, it is not the same. The frame has an alignment issue that causes the chain to drop off to the outside of my chainring when I'm really putting the pressure on. It only happens in one spot, when the left pedal in near the bottom of the stroke and I'm in my big ring and the 11, 12 and sometime 13 tooth cogs in the back. There are a few other little indicators that the chainline is just a bit out, enought that the frame flex in these conditions causes a derailment of the chain. Also, the dropouts ar now space a fuzz of 129mm.
> 
> Merlin, or rather ABG, will not return any of my communications to asking if this can be resolved... and it pisses me off. I would prefer them to just say, "sorry... get a new bike" than to not hear anything.
> 
> Anyway, that's my rant... My advice it steer clear of ABG products, as they obviously don't take care of their customers, honor the warranties of the brands they have absorbed, and it seems as though they don't even support their staff, as at least three Ti companies have formed from people leaving ABG... Lynsky, Pride... and the third company does not come to mind and may be defunct now.
> 
> Thanks for reading... and I'm with the OP... ABG needs a little hit in sales to wake them up.


and once again, if you own an ABG bike and they are not gonna honor their warranty, take the bike to someone else to fix. Find the closest Ti guy in your area and give them the $. You'll get a better repair and I'd wager better service in the future in regards to said repair


----------



## BetweenRides

Me again. I still love my Merlin Cyrene and hope to have it and ride it the rest of my life. I would recommend you have your Cielo sent back and have it repaired by someone local. It's a beautiful bike that we will probably never see the likes of again - the Ti lugged Carbon frame seems to be a thing of the past, unless Seven and Serrotta still make them.
I don't think you will ever be happy with the C1.

And keep posting about the asshats at ABG. If I ever need a repair on mine, I think I'll send it to Spectrum. I understand my frame was designed by Tom Kellog, so I'm sure they will appreciate it and give it the care it deserves.


----------



## AeolusRME

I wrote to Tom Kellogg about my frame when it broke... he has ABG build his, he doesn't actually do any ti work. He's a great guy, and an awesome steel guy.


----------



## Mike T.

Probably you needed to read this book -

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1445729156/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk


----------



## infopete

Mike T. said:


> Probably you needed to read this book -
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1445729156/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk


Haha Mike, I think ABG have already ready it by the way they treat their customers.


----------



## AeolusRME

Mike T. said:


> Probably you needed to read this book -
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1445729156/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk


I just wish they would say SOMETHING! They didn't even give me a no!


----------



## infopete

AeolusRME said:


> I just wish they would say SOMETHING! They didn't even give me a no!


They don't need to speak to you if they can send the police around.


----------



## rydbyk

*No ABG bikes for me now..*

I had planned on purchasing from them. I will look somewhere else now...


----------



## krisdrum

Better than simply having them return your frame, call some of the US Ti boutique shops. Send them the pictures and ask them to quote you a ballpark repair cost (I doubt they'd be able to be fully accurate without a manual inspection). Pick a respectable builder with a good repair price and then instruct ABG to ship your frame to that builder on your behalf. That should send a clear enough message of not only will I not play ball in your silly little game, but I intend to support a company that actually supports me. Plenty of good small Ti guys, like Strong, Kish, Black Sheep, etc. ABG can watch their reputation and profits be shipped out the door to a competitor.


----------



## infopete

krisdrum said:


> Better than simply having them return your frame, call some of the US Ti boutique shops. Send them the pictures and ask them to quote you a ballpark repair cost (I doubt they'd be able to be fully accurate without a manual inspection). Pick a respectable builder with a good repair price and then instruct ABG to ship your frame to that builder on your behalf. That should send a clear enough message of not only will I not play ball in your silly little game, but I intend to support a company that actually supports me. Plenty of good small Ti guys, like Strong, Kish, Black Sheep, etc. ABG can watch their reputation and profits be shipped out the door to a competitor.


I sent an email to David Lynskey as he is a member on here asking if he would be interested in fixing my frame but he has not replied. :mad2:


----------



## notoriousdjw

You should call them. I think Lynskey has posted here only a few times and doesn't seem to check the forums.


----------



## DannyBoy

This is a really really interesting post. The "police" part more so. I'm also from the UK and that's the kind of thing I'd believe could happen in the USA as you guys appear more letigious than us - I'm gobsmacked the cops didn't tell ABG/whoever to ***k off.

I now live in NZ and there's no way on gods green earth the police here would entertain such action.

Anyhow my main reason for posting is to say I know how deeply frustrating it is when you're basically called a liar. I went through something slightly similar with Guru. I bought a Geneo from a local NZ dealer and it creaked almost from day one. 

I won't bore you with the details but to Guru's credit after a sticky start they adjusted their mindset/position, repaired and repainted my frame. I was a bit sour with them for a while, but to be frank they did the right thing and as far as I'm concerned I would by their product again.

I hope the Merlin guys see sense.

As for me, I'm on custom Roberts steel again. Can I suggest you visit the boys in Croydon. Good luck.


----------



## infopete

I've emailed Lysnkey and Dan has already replied ... on a Sunday too 

I'll let you know what happens.


----------



## giantdefy2

Lynskey has a very good reputation which is why I ordered a frame from them, but I know their schedule is super busy. If for some reason they are unable to accommodate you, try Steve Potts http://www.stevepottsbicycles.com/index.php . Hes know for fixing other brands.

Btw, looking at your photos, maybe ABG was wondering why your front and rear wheels are different, probably assuming something catastrophic happened to the rear.


----------



## infopete

Don at Lynskey doesn't want to chance repairing my Merlin because it's bonded.

Enigma in the uk will try to repair it when/if it's sent back.

As for the different wheels, as I mentioned before, the puncture fairy visited me so I swapped wheels as Mrs P is having my Mavic wheels on her Condor.

In addition, Merlin/Litespeed have never asked me any questions regarding my Merlin, they have only made assumptions.


----------



## Jetmugg

What's next? I predict that Merlin/ABG will try to prevent you from getting your frame back.

SteveM.


----------



## infopete

Jetmugg said:


> What's next? I predict that Merlin/ABG will try to prevent you from getting your frame back.
> 
> SteveM.


My Merlin Cielo is my property and I have asked for them to return it. If they don't I will have to assume they have stolen it or damaged it and call the police.


----------



## infopete

I've started my blog http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com

It's in draft at the moment so please let me know what you all think and what changes you think I should make.

If you want to link to it then please do.


----------



## JacksonDodge

_"the non-drive side drop out was cracked, *the head tube was also cracked *and the rear mech hanger was bent."_

Why was the fact that the head tube is also cracked never mentioned in any of your initial posts?


----------



## infopete

JacksonDodge said:


> _"the non-drive side drop out was cracked, *the head tube was also cracked *and the rear mech hanger was bent."_
> 
> Why was the fact that the head tube is also cracked never mentioned in any of your initial posts?


I've never seen anything backing this up from ABG I've always assumed it was a mistake from the UK warranty person. 

I also can't see anything in any of the photos I took.


----------



## infopete

Before I posted my merlin to ABG I took several pictures just in case anything happened to it while it was away.

Here are the links that show the headtube:

https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m001.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m005.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m008.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m026.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m027.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m037.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m038.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m041.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m046.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m058.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m062.JPG
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m063.JPG

I can't see any cracks.


----------



## giantdefy2

Frame was already on the jig with the argon gas attachment, why didnt they just go ahead and weld the crack??? ABG made a bad decision not to do the weld. Even assuming you were at fault, they should have considered the fact that you shipped it from the UK and thought about what 1 unhappy customer can do to spread the word on the internet. The cost to do the weld is WAY cheaper than losing a lot of current and future customers. Bad decision on ABG! I myself would not buy any products from ABG and would warn all friends to do the same.

I read your blog about the part where the police showed up at your house. What happened to freedom of speech? Customers have the right to know how a business handles its warranty claims.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

giantdefy2 said:


> Frame was already on the jig with the argon gas attachment, why didnt they just go ahead and weld the crack??? ABG made a bad decision not to do the weld. Even assuming you were at fault, they should have considered the fact that you shipped it from the UK and thought about what 1 unhappy customer can do to spread the word on the internet. The cost to do the weld is WAY cheaper than losing a lot of current and future customers. Bad decision on ABG! I myself would not buy any products from ABG and would warn all friends to do the same.


I have had the same thoughts. Perhaps their current Titanium line is so limited that they just don't have a welder employed at the moment--I mean, what would he do all day, since the current models are all out and the next years' are probably not ready to start on . . . do these guys make custom frames which would require at least one welder to be employed year-round?


----------



## giantdefy2

ClarkinHawaii said:


> I have had the same thoughts. Perhaps their current Titanium line is so limited that they just don't have a welder employed at the moment--I mean, what would he do all day, since the current models are all out and the next years' are probably not ready to start on . . . do these guys make custom frames which would require at least one welder to be employed year-round?


According to ABG, their pre-season orders jumped up 21% from 2010. I think they just dont care about previous customers because they just had a very large increase in sales / new customers. Warranty claims is just money out of their pocket when they have to worry about filling new orders.


----------



## infopete

giantdefy2 said:


> According to ABG, their pre-season orders jumped up 21% from 2010. I think they just dont care about previous customers because they just had a very large increase in sales / new customers. Warranty claims is just money out of their pocket when they have to worry about filling new orders.


I don't think they care about their customers but with everyones help they'll certainly notice us.


----------



## nenad

We had a +18 C here today and I sneaked out this afternoon for a ride on my Litespeed which rides wonderfully; it's the first and last bike I bought from ABG.


----------



## infopete

nenad said:


> We had a +18 C here today and I sneaked out this afternoon for a ride on my Litespeed which rides wonderfully; it's the first and last bike I bought from ABG.


It's warm here today it got to -1 (so much better than -14) but there's so much snow about I didn't cycle.

I wanted a Litespeed once!


----------



## andresmuro

Hey Pete:

I am very happy that you created the website to share your experiences with ABG. Corporations have grown so powerful that they can deny customers their rights, send cops to their homes and pretty much abuse them however they feel instead of treating them right. In fact, they are willing to spend more money in denying customers their rights than actually making it right to make an example. Had it been a small custom builder that made your bike he would have repaired it not questions asked even though his financial losses would have been way greater. 

Fortunately, the internet provides a forum for people with grievances to defend their rights as consumers. I hope that enough people see your site so that ABG has to beg you to close the site. At this time, repairing your frame should not be enough to you. ABG should account for your time w/o the bike, the expense of taking it apart and shipping it, and all the pain and suffering incurred by your dealings with them including the visit by cops to your house. A new frame, money to put it together, additional money for pain and suffering, and a very nice apology letter should be the least that you can accept. 

I wish you the best in your struggle.


----------



## infopete

andresmuro said:


> Hey Pete:
> 
> I am very happy that you created the website to share your experiences with ABG. Corporations have grown so powerful that they can deny customers their rights, send cops to their homes and pretty much abuse them however they feel instead of treating them right. In fact, they are willing to spend more money in denying customers their rights than actually making it right to make an example. Had it been a small custom builder that made your bike he would have repaired it not questions asked even though his financial losses would have been way greater.
> 
> Fortunately, the internet provides a forum for people with grievances to defend their rights as consumers. I hope that enough people see your site so that ABG has to beg you to close the site. At this time, repairing your frame should not be enough to you. ABG should account for your time w/o the bike, the expense of taking it apart and shipping it, and all the pain and suffering incurred by your dealings with them including the visit by cops to your house. A new frame, money to put it together, additional money for pain and suffering, and a very nice apology letter should be the least that you can accept.
> 
> I wish you the best in your struggle.


Thank you 

I only want my Merlin Cielo repaired and sent back.

Mrs P, on the other hand, is thinking more along the line of plagues.


----------



## rx-79g

infopete said:


> Thank you
> 
> I only want my Merlin Cielo repaired and sent back.
> 
> Mrs P, on the other hand, is thinking more along the line of plagues.


Have you considered how anyone is going to straighten the dropout? It seems like it is going to be tough to do, but imporant to so the seat stays aren't side loaded.


----------



## infopete

rx-79g said:


> Have you considered how anyone is going to straighten the dropout? It seems like it is going to be tough to do, but imporant to so the seat stays aren't side loaded.


Unless the dropout got bent as I cycled the last two miles home after it snapped then the gear shifting was always fine.

If the dropout did get bent because of the breakage then I am sure it will get repaired under warranty or maybe I'm just dreaming.

Anyway, If I ever get my Merlin Cielo back I'll see how it effects the gears.


----------



## infopete

Happy Christmas Everyone and thank you so much for your support.


----------



## rx-79g

infopete said:


> Unless the dropout got bent as I cycled the last two miles home after it snapped then the gear shifting was always fine.
> 
> If the dropout did get bent because of the breakage then I am sure it will get repaired under warranty or maybe I'm just dreaming.
> 
> Anyway, If I ever get my Merlin Cielo back I'll see how it effects the gears.


Well, like I mentioned when I first proposed that the dropout bent after the failure, it isn't bent below the axle. My theory is that it bent above the axle, which won't affect shifting, but will put a constant side load on the carbon seat stay if it isn't straightened.

If an outside welder fixes the Cielo, that will have to be addressed, if not fixed.

BTW, a close examination of where, exactly, the dropout is bent may convince Merlin that the bend is post failure. But it may not be bent in an a measurably definitive way.


----------



## froze

Merlin is a Litespeed company (all part of the ABG group) and Litespeed won't pay out on warranties either thus Merlin won't. There has been many complaints about Litespeed handling warranties on this and other forums.


----------



## rx-79g

froze said:


> Merlin is a Litespeed company (all part of the ABG group) and Litespeed won't pay out on warranties either thus Merlin won't. There has been many complaints about Litespeed handling warranties on this and other forums.


I think that has been well discussed in this thread. It predates that Litespeed Niota thread.


----------



## infopete

I'm thinking of seeing if http://www.bbb.org/ can help as I see other people have used them.

I know nothing of them, are they a respected organisation?


----------



## andresmuro

infopete said:


> I'm thinking of seeing if http://www.bbb.org/ can help as I see other people have used them.
> 
> I know nothing of them, are they a respected organisation?


The BBB is a very well respected organization in the US. The will mediate for you. Having a bad score with the BBB is something that businesses like to avoid. I had a problem with Hyundai once. I filed a complaint with them BBB. They replied within a few days and within a week Hyundai returned a check to me for something that they wrongly charged me for. This was 2004.

Good luck,

Andres


----------



## lml1x

I haven't gone through the whole thread, but another suggestion is to send a note to the various cycling mags like Velonews, Cyclingnews, etc. and see what they think. Zinn writes a column on Velonews where he answers technical questions from readers. A few years ago my friend's Merlin (purchased in the early 90s) developed a crack at the downtube shifter braze-ons. Merlin made him produce the original receipt (which he had) and they replaced the tube. I guess things have changed since then. That thing about the cops is just ridiculous.


----------



## HigherGround

I'm appalled at how ABG has handled this situation. I currently own a Litespeed Classic, which I enjoy, but I do not see myself purchasing another ABG product (Litespeed, Merlin, or otherwise) in the future. I have read enough threads on multiple forums complaining about ABG's warranty service that I don't have much confidence in how they handle their claims or treat their customers.

The funny thing is that when I received my frameset originally, I refused the first one they sent. It appeared that part of the seat binder bolt mount had been welded too high, and when you viewed the seat tube from above, you could clearly see that the welded area reduced the wall thickness of the seat tube. It wasn't until after I told the dealer that I wanted a different frame that we realized Litespeed had shipped the wrong size frame! I had ordered a 55 cm, and that was what the dealer had written down, but they shipped a 53 cm frame. The dealer went out of his way to make sure I received a new frame in time to build it up over the weekend, but Litespeed stuck him with an extra shipping charge for what appeared to have been their mistake.

On a side note, I remember someone talking about how Moots repaired one of their ti frames for free, even though he was not the original owner of the frame. That impressed me. My next ti frame may very well be a Moots or a Lynskey, but it won't be a Merlin or a Litespeed.

Edit: To be clear, I was just looking at the Moots site, and their official warranty position is that the warranty applies only to the original owner. The repair I alluded to above may have been the exception, rather than the norm, and is certainly at their discretion.


----------



## DrD

infopete said:


> Before I posted my merlin to ABG I took several pictures just in case anything happened to it while it was away.
> 
> Here are the links that show the headtube:
> 
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m001.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m005.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m008.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m026.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m027.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m037.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m038.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m041.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m046.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m058.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m062.JPG
> https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m063.JPG
> 
> I can't see any cracks.


I doubt there are any... sucks they are treating you like that.

As an aside - it really is a visually stunning frame - would be a shame if you couldn't get it fixed and back on the road!


----------



## Squint

Well, you got their attention on Slowtwitch where they're now trying to spin things in their favor:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....372;page=5;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


----------



## HigherGround

Interesting.


----------



## atpjunkie

*again*



HigherGround said:


> Interesting.


at this point, find a local Ti Guy. Have it fixed. Sell frame. Have local Ti guy build you a bike.


----------



## HigherGround

atpjunkie said:


> at this point, find a local Ti Guy. Have it fixed. Sell frame. Have local Ti guy build you a bike.


I'm not the one with the broken frame. I was simply pointing out the Better Business Bureau's rating of the American Bicycle Group.

Ironically, my local ti guy would be Tom Kellogg at Spectrum... which would be built by Merlin.


----------



## Bacana

BBB Rating of American Bicycle Group



> Based on BBB files, [highlight]this business has a BBB Rating of F[/highlight] on a scale from A+ to F.
> 
> Reasons for this rating include:
> 9 complaints filed against business
> 3 complaints filed against business that were not resolved.
> Failure to respond to one complaint filed against business.
> Click here for an explanation of BBB Ratings
> 
> BBB encourages consumers to be clear and understand warranty pertaining to the bike they are purchasing.


Wow, that's REALLY bad. I've never seen a major manufacturer with an F rating. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen an F rating period.

The BBB is about as objective as they come--it's not a Yelp-like site where disgruntled users can fire off tirades within minutes; the users have to register complaints with the BBB and follow up on them.

Sounds like some higher-up somewhere is being pretty hard-nosed about things.


----------



## rx-79g

Bacana said:


> BBB Rating of American Bicycle Group
> 
> Wow, that's REALLY bad. I've never seen a major manufacturer with an F rating. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen an F rating period.
> 
> The BBB is about as objective as they come--it's not a Yelp-like site where disgruntled users can fire off tirades within minutes; the users have to register complaints with the BBB and follow up on them.
> 
> Sounds like some higher-up somewhere is being pretty hard-nosed about things.


It isn't hard to receive an F rating. If you have one BBB complaint and it remains filed as "unresolved", that will do it.

However, ABG is not doing very well with the number of complaints listed.


----------



## froze

Squint said:


> Well, you got their attention on Slowtwitch where they're now trying to spin things in their favor:
> 
> http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....372;page=5;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


I went on that web site and wrote a post about the complaints here and SlowTwitch removed it because I can't find it!!! I guess SlowTwitch must have some sort of financial thing going on with LiteSpeed and post negative proof against them.


----------



## nachoman

Based on these types of experiences, I would certainly not buy any ABG product.


----------



## infopete

froze said:


> I went on that web site and wrote a post about the complaints here and SlowTwitch removed it because I can't find it!!! I guess SlowTwitch must have some sort of financial thing going on with LiteSpeed and post negative proof against them.


I was going to post a link to my blog on SlowTwitch later today, we can test your theory by seeing if it gets deleted too :mad2: 

http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com please email the link to your friends, tweet it to everyone and spread the word :idea:


----------



## froze

infopete said:


> I was going to post a link to my blog on SlowTwitch later today, we can test your theory by seeing if it gets deleted too :mad2:
> 
> http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com please email the link to your friends, tweet it to everyone and spread the word :idea:


At first I thought somehow I didn't save my post, but then I checked my profile and it shows my last post was 12/28/10. I checked again today and the post still isn't there yet my last post is still listed as yesterday!!!


----------



## froze

froze said:


> At first I thought somehow I didn't save my post, but then I checked my profile and it shows my last post was 12/28/10. I checked again today and the post still isn't there yet my last post is still listed as yesterday!!!


EDIT: I just posted again, it looks like it still there, I did see yours Info Pete so maybe there was a glitch? Wait and see if it sticks.


----------



## infopete

froze said:


> EDIT: I just posted again, it looks like it still there, I did see yours Info Pete so maybe there was a glitch? Wait and see if it sticks.


My post on SlowTwitch has gone or I am being blind.

Also, I couldn't log on to SlowTwitch a minute ago so I asked to have my password sent to me.

I got this reply on SlowTwitch:


_ "Home: An error occurred 

infopete is not a valid username"_ 

It looks like I am not welcome on SlowTwitch, I wonder why?


----------



## infopete

Ok, managed to get back onto SlowTwitch and posted again.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3135249#3135249

:mad2:


----------



## T K

I just clicked that link and it said "post does not exist". 
Note to self, don't buy ABG or waste my time on slow twitch! This kind of sh!t makes me sick!
I say send the troll brigade to Slow Twitch!


----------



## infopete

T K said:


> I just clicked that link and it said "post does not exist".
> Note to self, don't buy ABG or waste my time on slow twitch! This kind of sh!t makes me sick!
> I say send the troll brigade to Slow Twitch!


I thought this was the season of goodwill to all men except me :mad2:


----------



## Mike T.

infopete said:


> It looks like I am not welcome on SlowTwitch, I wonder why?


Because the truth hurts maybe? Someone get embarrassed?


----------



## Jetmugg

Is ABG still holding your frame hostage?

SteveM


----------



## rx-79g

Mike T. said:


> Because the truth hurts maybe? Someone get embarrassed?


WTF? Truth about what, exactly?


----------



## infopete

Jetmugg said:


> Is ABG still holding your frame hostage?
> 
> SteveM


Yes :mad5:


----------



## Jetmugg

Have they responded to your requests to return YOUR frame to YOU?

If not, that sounds a lot like theft.

SteveM.


----------



## infopete

Jetmugg said:


> Have they responded to your requests to return YOUR frame to YOU?
> 
> If not, that sounds a lot like theft.
> 
> SteveM.


Respond! They ignore me.


----------



## rx-79g

infopete said:


> Respond! They ignore me.


Use the telephone.


----------



## infopete

rx-79g said:


> Use the telephone.


I'm going to 

I have, of course, spoken to the sales director in Ireland but he ignores me now.

I've been assuming, half the world is off until the 4th January so I will call then.


----------



## froze

Slow Twitch deleted my post a second time and InfoPetes. Wow, talk about protecting Litespeed. I guess I was right, Slowtwitch has their alliances.


----------



## atpjunkie

*I know HG*



HigherGround said:


> I'm not the one with the broken frame. I was simply pointing out the Better Business Bureau's rating of the American Bicycle Group.
> 
> Ironically, my local ti guy would be Tom Kellogg at Spectrum... which would be built by Merlin.


I know you are not. I was pointing out your addition (that BBB report) just further illustrates why he should dump that bike. I wouldn't want to ride it and advertise for them. I wouldn't send it to them for repair as their work will most likely suck and they won't back it.


----------



## Mike T.

Hi Pete. A few thoughts on this sad saga. You seem to be a man of reasonable means so do you really want this frame back and to advertise for these people for whom, I assume, you have now no respect? Maybe you should write the frame off as a bad experience and buy something that will give you some pride. I'm sure a custom builder would be able to reproduce the dimensions of this frame.


----------



## froze

I wrote a moderator at Slow Twitch and they said in a nutshell that they will not post any negative comments about Litespeed, their forum is not a vehicle for that!


----------



## T K

froze said:


> I wrote a moderator at Slow Twitch and they said in a nutshell that they will not post any negative comments about Litespeed, their forum is not a vehicle for that!


I'm speachless.


----------



## froze

T K said:


> I'm speachless.


The letters that I wrote and their forum wrote back came directly from Dan Empfield, who had the courtesy to respond but won't hear the complaints. My last letter to Dan was a bit terse where his last comments to me were after two other letters from me being politically correct:

> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:12:00 -0800
> Subject: Re: Litespeed post
> From: [email protected]
> To: froze
> 
>" I understand your concern. Nevertheless, our forum is not the vehicle."

Where my last reply was: 

"Hate to beat a dead horse, but correct me if I'm wrong, your forum is then only for lolly pops, sunshine, and flowers; no rain storms, overcast days, or hurricanes? You have a very unusual forum compared to others. Your forum has a lot in common with the former Soviet Union's public media."

I have a feeling he won't respond to me anymore.


----------



## krisdrum

infopete said:


> Respond! They ignore me.


If the phonecall to their HQ does not garner any results, time to call the cops on them. Get in touch with their local police precinct and tell them that ABG has ceased communication after taking possession of your property and you can only assume they have stolen what is rightfully yours. Forget the BBB (was actually a 60 minutes piece or another investigative journalism piece on how the BBB can be bought for a good rating and basically issues less than good ratings to those who refuse to pay the "bribe"). 

Looks like the town of Ooltewah, TN (current ABG HQ) falls under the jurisdiction of the City of Collegedale. I'd reach out to them as well as the TN attorney generals office. They want to play hardball and bully you around and ignore you, have someone more meaningful knock on their door asking questions.


----------



## Squint

froze said:


> I went on that web site and wrote a post about the complaints here and SlowTwitch removed it because I can't find it!!! I guess SlowTwitch must have some sort of financial thing going on with LiteSpeed and post negative proof against them.


Sorry to hear that. I've always known Empfield was a wXXre, just not how much. He's taken consideration for favorable "reviews" in the past.

Somewhere out there, plans for an ad-blocking Firefox add-on specific to Slowtwitch have been accelerated...


----------



## ToF

Consider posting to the Consumerist too.


----------



## wickedwheels

I just came across all of this today. Infopete... my sincerest condolences for your troubles. I manage a shop (that is not an ABG dealer) and have a customer who is a heavy investor in ABG. Would you like me to point him to your thread and blog?

I don't check here often, so if you reply to me please send it in the form of an email.


----------



## T K

froze said:


> The letters that I wrote and their forum wrote back came directly from Dan Empfield, who had the courtesy to respond but won't hear the complaints. My last letter to Dan was a bit terse where his last comments to me were after two other letters from me being politically correct:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:12:00 -0800
> > Subject: Re: Litespeed post
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: froze
> >
> >" I understand your concern. Nevertheless, our forum is not the vehicle."
> 
> Where my last reply was:
> 
> "Hate to beat a dead horse, but correct me if I'm wrong, your forum is then only for lolly pops, sunshine, and flowers; no rain storms, overcast days, or hurricanes? You have a very unusual forum compared to others. Your forum has a lot in common with the former Soviet Union's public media."
> 
> I have a feeling he won't respond to me anymore.


Your last reply is exactly what I was thinking. Good job. 
So what the hell do they talk about over there? I call major BULLSH!T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Mike T.

rx-79g said:


> WTF? Truth about what, exactly?


Truth about ABG and their crappy treatment of Pete.


----------



## froze

T K said:


> Your last reply is exactly what I was thinking. Good job.
> So what the hell do they talk about over there? I call major BULLSH!T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


DAN DID REPLY!!!! His first word to my comments was: "BINGO!" I about died laughing!

He did mention that they have a comments section that is seperate from the forum where people can post comments supposedly about such things as we've been trying to do, But I wrote him back to find out if we're allowed to post neg comments on the comment section. That would be funny if the comments section was only for lolly pops. flowers, and sunshine!!


----------



## froze

infopete said:


> Yes :mad5:


If you haven't already done this please do so. File a complaint with the BBB as others have done, the more that file the more likely that the BBB will investigate; not that they will resolve anything, but they might be able to force them to resolve issues, but it goes against AGB's business for all to see making that F a solid F.

I'm surprised by all the negative comments I've read over the last at least 5 years that AGB is still in business. If they don't want to handle warranty issues then they should do the cycling community a favor and just close their doors forever instead of ripping us all off.


----------



## froze

krisdrum said:


> If the phonecall to their HQ does not garner any results, time to call the cops on them. Get in touch with their local police precinct and tell them that ABG has ceased communication after taking possession of your property and you can only assume they have stolen what is rightfully yours. Forget the BBB (was actually a 60 minutes piece or another investigative journalism piece on how the BBB can be bought for a good rating and basically issues less than good ratings to those who refuse to pay the "bribe").
> 
> Looks like the town of Ooltewah, TN (current ABG HQ) falls under the jurisdiction of the City of Collegedale. I'd reach out to them as well as the TN attorney generals office. They want to play hardball and bully you around and ignore you, have someone more meaningful knock on their door asking questions.


Not sure if the police can do anything since it's a business and the business will simply say the owner sent it to them and their still looking into the problem. But small claims court may be the route to go. If you have all photos, all docs and e-mails etc, you could easily win.


----------



## gibson00

I'm sure if they knew up front the publicity this was going to get on the forums, they would have just warrantied the frame....lol
That said, I say move on. Is it really worth your time? I'd take the carbon replacement, sell it (it's butt ugly anyway), and move on to something like a Serotta Ottrott, which will be vastly superior to your Merlin IMHO.


----------



## Lifelover

*What a bunch of Bullshit*

My take, for what it is worth, is that the OP is leaving out quit a bit of the story. It all sounds a little to mad eup to me.

He wrecked the, tried to screw over the company and is now screwing them over in another way.

I also think he is lying about the police coming ot his house.

Just my opinion!


----------



## andresmuro

gibson00 said:


> I'm sure if they knew up front the publicity this was going to get on the forums, they would have just warrantied the frame....lol
> That said, I say move on. Is it really worth your time? I'd take the carbon replacement, sell it (it's butt ugly anyway), and move on to something like a Serotta Ottrott, which will be vastly superior to your Merlin IMHO.


Move on my ass. If ABG cannot prove that the frame was crashed, they need to replace it or fix it. It is not a Chinese $300 carbon frame. It is one of the most expensive frames made, originally at something like $8,000. I think that in court, Pete will likely recover the frame's value plus a little on top for harrassment, loss of riding time, etc. 

A frame at that price should be made to last even w/ some moderate abuse. From ABG's position It looks like Pete's frame had an accident where only a very small area of the frame was affected and everything else stayed intact. That sounds like BS too me. An $8000 frame should come with a better warranty. I think that someone like Tom Kellog would have taken care of Pete no questions asked.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

andresmuro said:


> Move on my ass. If ABG cannot prove that the frame was crashed, they need to replace it or fix it. It is not a Chinese $300 carbon frame. It is one of the most expensive frames made, originally at something like $8,000. I think that in court, Pete will likely recover the frame's value plus a little on top for harrassment, loss of riding time, etc.
> 
> A frame at that price should be made to last even w/ some moderate abuse. From ABG's position It looks like Pete's frame had an accident where only a very small area of the frame was affected and everything else stayed intact. That sounds like BS too me. An $8000 frame should come with a better warranty. I think that someone like Tom Kellog would have taken care of Pete no questions asked.


I agree with this. If it were me, I would NEVER give up. But then again, I'm a stubborn SOB . . .


----------



## jswilson64

Pete,
I just came across this thread, and I feel your pain. I would get the frame back and have it repaired by someone who knows what they're doing. I'm not a lawyer, but I work in a department that pursues financial claims and legal actions for fraud. I work with ex-FBI and ex-DEA agents on a daily basis on criminal and civil legal actions. I'm not quite sure how it would work with you being in the U.K. and them being in Tennessee, but your correspondence with them needs to be a physical document, mailed or Fed-Exed, with some sort of proof of delivery. You need this documentation for legal purposes, to prove they actually received your correspondence. E-mail is OK for informal conversations, but to prove it in a court of law, if you can show a piece of paper with a signature and delivery date, you're golden.

Secondly, Merlin's business address is in Tennessee. Here is a link (at the Univ. of Tennessee, Knoxville) to some information about Tennessee law, and what constitutes a felony: http://web.utk.edu/~scheb/overview.html#property
Here is a relevant section regarding theft of property (*bolding is mine*):


> Theft Offenses. In Tennessee, theft is divided into “theft of property” and “theft of services.” One is guilty of theft of property “if, *with intent to deprive* the owner of property, the person knowingly obtains or exercises control over the property *without the owner’s effective consent*.” T.C.A. § 39-14-103. One is guilty of theft of services if he or she “(1) Intentionally obtains services by deception, fraud, coercion, false pretense or any other means to avoid payment for the services; (2) Having control over the disposition of services to others, knowingly diverts those services to the person’s own benefit or to the benefit of another not entitled thereto; or (3) Knowingly absconds from establishments where compensation for services is ordinarily paid immediately upon the rendering of them, including, but not limited to, hotels, motels and restaurants, without payment or a bona fide offer to pay.” T.C.A. § 39-14-104. In Tennessee, “theft” includes embezzlement, false pretenses, fraudulent conversion, larceny, and receiving stolen property. T.C.A. § 39-14-101.
> 
> Theft is graded as a misdemeanor or felony depending on the value of goods or services that are unlawfully obtained, according to the following criteria:
> 
> A Class A misdemeanor if the value of the property or services obtained is five hundred dollars ($500) or less;
> A Class E felony if the value of the property or services obtained is more than five hundred dollars ($500) but less than one thousand dollars ($1,000);
> A Class D felony if the value of the property or services obtained is one thousand dollars ($1,000) or more but less than ten thousand dollars ($10,000);
> A Class C felony if the value of the property or services obtained is ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or more but less than sixty thousand dollars ($60,000); and
> A Class B felony if the value of the property or services obtained is sixty thousand dollars ($60,000) or more. T.C.A. § 39-14-105.


I'm not sure how much the Merlin frame would be worth alone, but it is probably at least $500, which puts their holding on to it (at least arguably) in the Class D felony range. Full Cielo bikes have been going in the $2000 range on eBay lately, so you might even convince a cop that it's a class C felony. The sections I bolded above are key - one is ABG's *intent*, and the other is your *consent*. If you write them a demand letter, declining their settlement offer, and demanding return of your property, I would think you have met the "consent" clause. Intent is the sticking point and what would have to be determined in a court of law.

You might have difficulty filing a police report in Chattanooga, TN, if you live in the UK, but it couldn't hurt calling them, if ABG doesn't return your property after you officially (and able to prove it in a court of law) notify them that you want it back. If you can get the police to pursue the case as a felony (criminal) matter, you will have ABG's full attention very quickly.

That's my 2 cents worth, and how I would proceed were it my frame. 

Best of luck, and happy New Year!


----------



## atpjunkie

*yes, and js wilson thx for posting this*



jswilson64 said:


> Pete,
> I just came across this thread, and I feel your pain. I would get the frame back and have it repaired by someone who knows what they're doing. I'm not a lawyer, but I work in a department that pursues financial claims and legal actions for fraud. I work with ex-FBI and ex-DEA agents on a daily basis on criminal and civil legal actions. I'm not quite sure how it would work with you being in the U.K. and them being in Tennessee, but your correspondence with them needs to be a physical document, mailed or Fed-Exed, with some sort of proof of delivery. You need this documentation for legal purposes, to prove they actually received your correspondence. E-mail is OK for informal conversations, but to prove it in a court of law, if you can show a piece of paper with a signature and delivery date, you're golden.
> 
> Secondly, Merlin's business address is in Tennessee. Here is a link (at the Univ. of Tennessee, Knoxville) to some information about Tennessee law, and what constitutes a felony: http://web.utk.edu/~scheb/overview.html#property
> Here is a relevant section regarding theft of property (*bolding is mine*):
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how much the Merlin frame would be worth alone, but it is probably at least $500, which puts their holding on to it (at least arguably) in the Class D felony range. Full Cielo bikes have been going in the $2000 range on eBay lately, so you might even convince a cop that it's a class C felony. The sections I bolded above are key - one is ABG's *intent*, and the other is your *consent*. If you write them a demand letter, declining their settlement offer, and demanding return of your property, I would think you have met the "consent" clause. Intent is the sticking point and what would have to be determined in a court of law.
> 
> You might have difficulty filing a police report in Chattanooga, TN, if you live in the UK, but it couldn't hurt calling them, if ABG doesn't return your property after you officially (and able to prove it in a court of law) notify them that you want it back. If you can get the police to pursue the case as a felony (criminal) matter, you will have ABG's full attention very quickly.
> 
> That's my 2 cents worth, and how I would proceed were it my frame.
> 
> Best of luck, and happy New Year!


DEMAND your property back. UNFIXED. They are holding it hostage to force you to pay for the repair and/or to prevent any other Ti professional to see it and call it for what most here agree it is. A BAD WELD. Write the letters making the demand, make a copies and send to the local DA and the BBB so they are aware of the actions you are taking. Keep all your records. Hell if they demand you pay shipping DO IT. Heck I'll chip in some $ to get your frame back to you.


----------



## rx-79g

Lifelover said:


> My take, for what it is worth, is that the OP is leaving out quit a bit of the story. It all sounds a little to mad eup to me.
> 
> He wrecked the, tried to screw over the company and is now screwing them over in another way.
> 
> I also think he is lying about the police coming ot his house.
> 
> Just my opinion!


Any reason for having this opinion, or did it just pop into your mind during an LSD trip?

-The frame shows no crash damage - scapes, marring, dents, cracks.
-ABG's evidence of crash damage is a dropout bent the wrong way for a crash, but the right way for post failure bending.
-The welds failed in the center of the bead, indicative of embrittlement.
-Both dropouts simulataneously cracked.
-ABG isn't discussing their reasoning with anyone, including the OP and neutral third parties.

I believe that monkeys fly out of your butt, regularly.

Just my opinion.


----------



## atpjunkie

*and this is what*



rx-79g said:


> Any reason for having this opinion, or did it just pop into your mind during an LSD trip?
> 
> -The frame shows no crash damage - scapes, marring, dents, cracks.
> -ABG's evidence of crash damage is a dropout bent the wrong way for a crash, but the right way for post failure bending.
> -The welds failed in the center of the bead, indicative of embrittlement.
> -Both dropouts simulataneously cracked.
> -ABG isn't discussing their reasoning with anyone, including the OP and neutral third parties.
> 
> I believe that monkeys fly out of your butt, regularly.
> 
> Just my opinion.


we call a succinct and well supported counterpoint
there is all kinds of stuff pointing to weld failure
and next to nothing in regards to a crash

this is straight up chicken$h!t on the part of ABG. I will avoid any of their products


----------



## jkm

Of course, Slowtwitch will not allow badmouthing of ABG. I am pretty sure that Dan Empfield has been consulting to QR on their line of Tri bikes in recent years, thus us profits from them having a good reputation. One of the guys who posts and who used to write articles for hte ST site (Herbert) used to be a Litespeed employee. ABG is "family" to slowtwitch.


----------



## infopete

jswilson64 said:


> Pete,
> I just came across this thread, and I feel your pain. I would get the frame back and have it repaired by someone who knows what they're doing. I'm not a lawyer, but I work in a department that pursues financial claims and legal actions for fraud. I work with ex-FBI and ex-DEA agents on a daily basis on criminal and civil legal actions. I'm not quite sure how it would work with you being in the U.K. and them being in Tennessee, but your correspondence with them needs to be a physical document, mailed or Fed-Exed, with some sort of proof of delivery. You need this documentation for legal purposes, to prove they actually received your correspondence. E-mail is OK for informal conversations, but to prove it in a court of law, if you can show a piece of paper with a signature and delivery date, you're golden.
> 
> Secondly, Merlin's business address is in Tennessee. Here is a link (at the Univ. of Tennessee, Knoxville) to some information about Tennessee law, and what constitutes a felony: http://web.utk.edu/~scheb/overview.html#property
> Here is a relevant section regarding theft of property (*bolding is mine*):
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how much the Merlin frame would be worth alone, but it is probably at least $500, which puts their holding on to it (at least arguably) in the Class D felony range. Full Cielo bikes have been going in the $2000 range on eBay lately, so you might even convince a cop that it's a class C felony. The sections I bolded above are key - one is ABG's *intent*, and the other is your *consent*. If you write them a demand letter, declining their settlement offer, and demanding return of your property, I would think you have met the "consent" clause. Intent is the sticking point and what would have to be determined in a court of law.
> 
> You might have difficulty filing a police report in Chattanooga, TN, if you live in the UK, but it couldn't hurt calling them, if ABG doesn't return your property after you officially (and able to prove it in a court of law) notify them that you want it back. If you can get the police to pursue the case as a felony (criminal) matter, you will have ABG's full attention very quickly.
> 
> That's my 2 cents worth, and how I would proceed were it my frame.
> 
> Best of luck, and happy New Year!


Wow and thank you, that's very impressive research.

My next step is to telephone then I will follow your plan


----------



## Bacana

Am I reading this correctly? ABG doesn't want to send your bike back?

I highly doubt they'd engage in such shenanigans. I think if you sent a registered letter, signature required, you'd get your bike back. They, most likely, will ask you to cover return shipping.

Reading between the lines, I think that this has become personal for ABG; they're clearly aware of you and this post.

Good timing, this thread. The Pride thread seems to have died down. Popcorn threads bring traffic to forums.


----------



## jkm

If you take the frame back unrepaired, then I would think that would be withdrawing your warranty claim, and thus foregoing the replacement Litespeed. As a Merlin owner (and former titanium Quintana Roo owner), I feel your disappointment in the whole process. At this stage, I think their offer is as good as you are going to get. If you get the frame back and get it fixed yourself, it will be at your expense.


----------



## rx-79g

jkm said:


> If you take the frame back unrepaired, then I would think that would be withdrawing your warranty claim, and thus foregoing the replacement Litespeed. As a Merlin owner (and former titanium Quintana Roo owner), I feel your disappointment in the whole process. At this stage, I think their offer is as good as you are going to get. If you get the frame back and get it fixed yourself, it will be at your expense.


If he takes the carbon Litespeed deal, he gets a much less expensive frame with a shorter warranty. If he repairs his frame, he spends $300 to keep the expensive frame he already purchased. And, if he gets the frame back, he can pursue ABG for repair costs. Is that really a bad deal compared to trading in the Cielo for a much cheaper carbon Litespeed.

Once a good repair person is identified, that person can also submit documentation that the frame was not obviously crashed, which could be used in court.


Infopete, you may want to identify a repair person ahead of time and have the frame sent directly to them within the the US. I would be inclined to try someone like Jim Kish or Kent Eriksen. Kish not only makes a first class frame, he teaches the titanium class at United Bicycle institute - that means he knows good vs. bad welds and would look good as an expert witness.


----------



## infopete

I can't say Merlin/Litespeed/ABG are refusing to send my Merlin Cielo back as they are ignoring all my emails.

As it's the Christmas holidays I am waiting a few days until I telephone to ask them to send it back.

As for the offer of a Litespeed Carbon, I don't feel the bike is a suitable replacement for a Merlin Cielo. 

My Merlin is a design classic and I intend to get it back.


----------



## Bacana

Email is great for relatively informal communication, but at some point, I think you'll need to send a registered letter. I've done this before with unresponsive businesses with good success. If you need help with that, let me know. It's not too hard to do, and I need to make a trip to the post office in the next couple of days anyway.


----------



## BetweenRides

infopete said:


> I can't say Merlin/Litespeed/ABG are refusing to send my Merlin Cielo back as they are ignoring all my emails.
> 
> As it's the Christmas holidays I am waiting a few days until I telephone to ask them to send it back.
> 
> As for the offer of a Litespeed Carbon, I don't feel the bike is a suitable replacement for a Merlin Cielo.
> 
> My Merlin is a design classic and I intend to get it back.


Definitely get it back, Pete. I agree with rx-79g: Check around for good Ti framebuilders here in the U.S. to have it sent to for repair. You have loads of pictures to send them and they should be able to make a determination on fixing it for you. As a fellow Merlin owner, I think that beautiful frame is a keeper. If it's repaired correctly, it should last you a lifetime, which is what they promised you (and me) when you bought it.


----------



## wim

*A thought.*



infopete said:


> My Merlin is a design classic and I intend to get it back.


Good for you, and I would try to do that as well were I in your shoes. But at one point in the future, your reasonable efforts to get what you're entitled to could turn into a fanatical quest for justice. While that in itself is not a bad thing, it can turn bad on you if the efforts you expend are growing completely out of proportion to what you could possibly hope to gain. With all this centering on what is basically an adult toy, even the best outcome could gain you no more than a feeling of mild satisfaction that will fade quickly.


/w


----------



## Lifelover

Just because I'm bored.



rx-79g said:


> Any reason for having this opinion, or did it just pop into your mind during an LSD trip?
> I used the same one sided, sketchy information that you used. I'm just smarter than you.
> 
> -The frame shows no crash damage - scapes, marring, dents, cracks.
> I think a cracked head tube is a decent indication.
> 
> -ABG's evidence of crash damage is a dropout bent the wrong way for a crash, but the right way for post failure bending.
> Since only the owner knows the nature of the impact, I'm not sure how you can derive this.
> 
> -The welds failed in the center of the bead, indicative of embrittlement.
> It is indicative of that section being the thinnest and having surface imperfections.
> 
> -Both dropouts simulataneously cracked.
> Thank You. That is a good point. Most likely caused by impact, not a bad weld.
> 
> -ABG isn't discussing their reasoning with anyone, including the OP and neutral third parties.
> They spelled their reasoning out very clearly in an email to the owner. Do you expect them to call and discuss it with you?
> 
> I believe that monkeys fly out of your butt, regularly.
> Monkeys out of mine and Roosters in yours. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> It is worth every penny I paid for it.


----------



## nenad

froze said:


> Slow Twitch deleted my post a second time and InfoPetes. Wow, talk about protecting Litespeed. I guess I was right, Slowtwitch has their alliances.


The guy running slowtwitch.com is a former Quintana Roo owner which he sold to ABG. You think that might be it ?


----------



## rx-79g

Lifelover said:


> Just because I'm bored.


There is no cracked head tube.

That was a misstatement on the part of the UK rep - not a finding of ABG. RIF.

Infopete wants the damaged dropouts fixed, not necessarily the frame replaced. Does that sound like someone who knows they destroyed a frame in an impact?

They didn't spell out anything. They said "this part is bent - must be a crash" and haven't discussed the frame itself since. Myself and another person looking at it both came to the same independant conclusion - the way the dropout is bent is most likely from after the failure.

I'm shouldn't bother to try and convince you, since you are smarter than everyone else that has posted their support to the OP on this thread. I doubt any argument would make it "up" to your level.


----------



## steve90068

FYI: This is now part of a thread on BikeForums as well http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/703633-Ti-Manufacturers-Any-to-stay-away-from/page4


----------



## steve90068

FYI: this is now a thread on Bikeforums as well http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/703633-Ti-Manufacturers-Any-to-stay-away-from/page4


----------



## atpjunkie

*I too*



rx-79g said:


> There is no cracked head tube.
> 
> That was a misstatement on the part of the UK rep - not a finding of ABG. RIF.
> 
> Infopete wants the damaged dropouts fixed, not necessarily the frame replaced. Does that sound like someone who knows they destroyed a frame in an impact?
> 
> They didn't spell out anything. They said "this part is bent - must be a crash" and haven't discussed the frame itself since. Myself and another person looking at it both came to the same independant conclusion - the way the dropout is bent is most likely from after the failure.
> 
> I'm shouldn't bother to try and convince you, since you are smarter than everyone else that has posted their support to the OP on this thread. I doubt any argument would make it "up" to your level.


came to that conclusion that the bend came from riding after it broke

geez enough impact to snap a ti weld and the CF is undamaged

hmmmmmmmmm

yup we're not so bright


----------



## froze

I'm working on something on my end to see if by some slim chance I can get this bike issue resolved, it may take a long time if ever. I've have been in a series of long communications with Dan today and last night, and he now knows me and knows of the situation. I'm hoping Dan will get with the officers of AGB group and reverse this warranty hassle, but time will tell, hopefully sooner rather then later, but if they can resolve it satisfactory even later it would be better then never! This is all a big IF so don't get your hopes up too much. I wish I could post all content of all the e-mails I sent and Dan sent me, but Dan hasn't given me permission, but for right now those e-mails are mostly private. The very second I get a possible positive result I'll let you know.


----------



## Lifelover

rx-79g said:


> There is no cracked head tube.
> 
> That was a misstatement on the part of the UK rep - not a finding of ABG. RIF.
> 
> Infopete wants the damaged dropouts fixed, not necessarily the frame replaced. Does that sound like someone who knows they destroyed a frame in an impact?
> 
> They didn't spell out anything. They said "this part is bent - must be a crash" and haven't discussed the frame itself since. Myself and another person looking at it both came to the same independant conclusion - the way the dropout is bent is most likely from after the failure.
> 
> I'm shouldn't bother to try and convince you, since you are smarter than everyone else that has posted their support to the OP on this thread. I doubt any argument would make it "up" to your level.


The basic difference is that you believe the OP and I do not. Unless we resolve that difference we will never agree on the details.


----------



## Lifelover

You almost have me convinced! Work a little harder.



rx-79g said:


> There is no cracked head tube.
> Per the OP whom I do not believe.
> 
> That was a misstatement on the part of the UK rep - not a finding of ABG. RIF.
> Per the OP whom I do not believe.
> 
> Infopete wants the damaged dropouts fixed, not necessarily the frame replaced. Does that sound like someone who knows they destroyed a frame in an impact?
> I have no knowledge of what pete is thinking. Maybe someone from ABG banged his wife, maybe he is bored, I have no clue and since I don't believe him it really does not matter.
> 
> They didn't spell out anything. They said "this part is bent - must be a crash" and haven't discussed the frame itself since. Myself and another person looking at it both came to the same independant conclusion - the way the dropout is bent is most likely from after the failure.
> They made a decision and have moved on. Two guys on the internet disagreeing with them is really some the do or should care about. I assume they have a bit more experience than you two.
> 
> *Myself and another person* looking at it both came to the same independant conclusion - the way the dropout is bent is most likely from after the failure.
> This just seemed worth repeating because it's funny.
> 
> I'm shouldn't bother to try and convince you, since you are smarter than everyone else that has posted their support to the OP on this thread. I doubt any argument would make it "up" to your level.
> But yet you can't resist. What is that indicative of?


----------



## krisdrum

Lifelover said:


> You almost have me convinced! Work a little harder.


RE: headtube condition. The OP posted several pictures of the headtube and surrounding areas from what appears to be the same photoshoot just prior to shipping to ABG. No indication of damage in those photos.


----------



## Lifelover

krisdrum said:


> RE: headtube condition. The OP posted several pictures of the headtube and surrounding areas from what appears to be the same photoshoot just prior to shipping to ABG. No indication of damage in those photos.



The OP also failed to notice (or photograph) the visible crack in the non drive side drop out. It does not surprise me that he didn't notice (or photograph) the head tube. It's consistent.

Which means he clearly (even if not intentionally) mis lead ABG with his initial email describing the problem. He told them there was one crack they receive a frame with 3.


----------



## krisdrum

Lifelover said:


> The OP also failed to notice (or photograph) the visible crack in the non drive side drop out. It does not surprise me that he didn't notice (or photograph) the head tube. It's consistent.
> 
> Which means he clearly (even if not intentionally) mis lead ABG with his initial email describing the problem. He told them there was one crack they receive a frame with 3.


Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The OP did photograph the headtube before sending to ABG. Those photographs are in this thread or linked in it. Take a look for yourself.


----------



## Lifelover

krisdrum said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The OP did photograph the headtube before sending to ABG. Those photographs are in this thread or linked in it. Take a look for yourself.



Maybe I wasn't clear enough:

It does not surprise me that he didn't notice (or photograph) the head tube damage.


----------



## krisdrum

Lifelover said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear enough:
> 
> It does not surprise me that he didn't notice (or photograph) the head tube damage.


Is that an assumption or have you actually looked at the photos? If memory serves, there aren't too many angles that aren't pictured that would "hide" any damage directly to the headtube or other components that would indicate an impact.


----------



## rx-79g

Lifelover said:


> The basic difference is that you believe the OP and I do not. Unless we resolve that difference we will never agree on the details.


Actually, you have me convinced. I no longer believe that Infopete did not smash the frame. In fact, after reflecting more on the nature of the internet, I no longer believe that there is a Cielo. This is clearly a smear campaign against ABG Holdings by a malevolent artificial intelligence that is loose on the world wide web, posing as one "Infopete".

It is simply a matter of connecting the dots. The most reasonable assumption given the information provided involves machine intelligence.


----------



## wickedwheels

Has anyone else noticed that all the contributors blew this up much more than the original poster? I feel like his tone has been polite and tempered, while others seem to be getting quite upset over this.


----------



## T K

wickedwheels said:


> Has anyone else noticed that all the contributors blew this up much more than the original poster? I feel like his tone has been polite and tempered, while others seem to be getting quite upset over this.


So by that reasoning, an NFL coach should be jumping up and down screaming more than the fans?
It's in his (Pete) best interest to remain cool until the game is over. The rest of us on the other hand can get drunk and cheer as loud as we want.


----------



## wickedwheels

I'm glad that you were able to read into what I was actually trying to say. The point really was that NFL coaches should be screaming more than the fans. The rest of the thread was leading up to just that. Thank you for contributing.



T K said:


> So by that reasoning, an NFL coach should be jumping up and down screaming more than the fans?
> It's in his (Pete) best interest to remain cool until the game is over. The rest of us on the other hand can get drunk and cheer as loud as we want.


----------



## jlwdm

Merlins not being made anymore; just stock Litespeed ti for ABG.

Jeff


----------



## infopete

jlwdm said:


> Merlins not being made anymore; just stock Litespeed ti for ABG.
> 
> Jeff


I thought Merlin were still making their mtb frame and doing custom frames?


----------



## froze

Haven't heard squat back from Dan, I'm hoping that's due to the holiday, otherwise I will re-email him the same letter again next Monday.


----------



## BetweenRides

infopete said:


> I thought Merlin were still making their mtb frame and doing custom frames?


Here's the scoop on Merlin, straight from the original horse's mouth:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...ial-everyone-back-working-together-19101.html


----------



## froze

That's great, but they don't answer a darn thing about their warranty issues. Which by the way I have yet to receive a reply from Dan, I give him a bit more time before I resend it to him.


----------



## CaliBuddha

XLMs are being produced as we speak. OK, maybe only during the day but you know what I mean...


----------



## CaliBuddha

Your frame is there now? I work there, I'll find it and see what the deal is.


----------



## infopete

CaliBuddha said:


> Your frame is there now? I work there, I'll find it and see what the deal is.


yes, it's there unless it got posted back over Christmas which I very much doubt.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## froze

CaliBuddha said:


> Your frame is there now? I work there, I'll find it and see what the deal is.


If you work there, I've been trying to communicate with Dan over at SlowTwitch. Dan has been informed of all the details as I know it and passed on Petes personal e-mail, I hope Dan will follow up on this. If you let your end know that Dan knows about this from me maybe we can resolve this faster? Thanks for your help too.


----------



## CaliBuddha

Well, apparently there is more to the story than this that I am not at liberty to speak about but to get the frame back you would have to pay for the return shipping, that's it. It would actually only come out to be a little bit extra just to go ahead and have the work done b/c they are going to charge less to ship it back. To have the work done it will only cost $100 or so extra than it would for us just to ship it back without doing the work...


----------



## krisdrum

CaliBuddha said:


> Well, apparently there is more to the story than this that I am not at liberty to speak about but to get the frame back you would have to pay for the return shipping, that's it. It would actually only come out to be a little bit extra just to go ahead and have the work done b/c they are going to charge less to ship it back. To have the work done it will only cost $100 or so extra than it would for us just to ship it back without doing the work...


Was this ever communicated to Pete? If so, that is a major piece of information he left out of the story. If not, ABG would have saved themselves alot of bad press.

$100 + shipping seems reasonable for the repair. Not sure if Pete was expecting it to be free because it was pretty clearly a defect or if he would even trust the repair work, given the original defect, but I would have to assume getting the repair done by a third party would cost at least $100.


----------



## CaliBuddha

I don't believe they ever got down to shipping prices.


----------



## krisdrum

CaliBuddha said:


> I don't believe they ever got down to shipping prices.


It wasn't really the shipping price I was referring to. 

Based on the account Pete has provided, ABG has taken his frame as a potential warranty item and have denied warranty service. I don't recall any mention of them offering to fix it for a fee. They have also offered him a new carbon frame as a replacement, which he has declined. 

So Pete - are you aware that ABG is offering to fix the frame for $100 + shipping? And you were holding out for free under warranty or ship me my broken frame back?

Now, I can understand the principle of not wanting to pay the $100 as it is pretty clearly a material defect and should be covered under warranty.

But you seem to just want the frame that you love back so you can ride it. So I am really confused why the repair offer would not be mentioned if you were aware of it. And if you weren't aware of it, looks like you have another option on the table to consider.


----------



## T K

A hundred bucks?!!!!! That's all it cost to repair it and they want Pete to pay it? I'm a small time work for myself carpenter and I would eat a hundred bucks any day of the week to keep my customer happy. Seems pretty petty. On the other hand, if I was Pete, I would just pay it and get my frame back.


----------



## krisdrum

T K said:


> A hundred bucks?!!!!! That's all it cost to repair it and they want Pete to pay it? I'm a small time work for myself carpenter and I would eat a hundred bucks any day of the week to keep my customer happy. Seems pretty petty. On the other hand, if I was Pete, I would just pay it and get my frame back.


Agreed. Pretty petty. Especially for a company that just announced record breaking pre-orders for 2011.

Unfortunately, I think the damage is done. Plenty of folks that were potential customers on this thread have outright said they'd never buy from them. Not smart business in my opinion. And just to be clear, I ride a Ti bike (not theirs) and love it and would never consider one of their products after seeing how this situation has played out.

As for Pete, I'd just pay the $100 if I was in his shoes and get back on the road. Then again, I'm not sure I'd ever fully trust the repair job either.


----------



## CaliBuddha

I'm not saying the work is necessarily going to cost $100 exactly. I'm just saying they will charge you less for shipping if we do the work. So if we did do the work then it wouldn't be that much more than as if we just sent it back as is...

I haven't seen the frame myself as I don't know where it is but I'm told it is here. The problem w/ all of this is Pete was doing some things that he shouldn't have been doing and I'll leave it at that...


----------



## srracer

Dude, if you work at ABG and you want to clear their name, you really shouldn't leave it at that.. 

Because otherwise, I still call BS on ABG and say that this is just to plant doubt in the minds of all the people reading these threads that Pete did something, when he probably did nothing wrong at all..

And seriously... ~$100 more than shipping to fix it and ABG would rather give away a new carbon frame that they'd have to ship anyways.. Again.. I call BS. No *successful* business owner would ever make that stupid of a tradeoff, pissing off their customer and ruining their image to hundreds (or thousands) of potential customers..


----------



## T K

CaliBuddha said:


> I'm not saying the work is necessarily going to cost $100 exactly. I'm just saying they will charge you less for shipping if we do the work. So if we did do the work then it wouldn't be that much more than as if we just sent it back as is...
> 
> I haven't seen the frame myself as I don't know where it is but I'm told it is here. The problem w/ all of this is Pete was doing some things that he shouldn't have been doing and I'll leave it at that...


Unless he was doing things "to the bike" he shouldn't have been doing, like jumping cars or somthing, it has no bearing on anything.


----------



## CougarTrek

CaliBuddha said:


> I'm not saying the work is necessarily going to cost $100 exactly. I'm just saying they will charge you less for shipping if we do the work. So if we did do the work then it wouldn't be that much more than as if we just sent it back as is...
> 
> I haven't seen the frame myself as I don't know where it is but I'm told it is here. The problem w/ all of this is Pete was doing some things that he shouldn't have been doing and I'll leave it at that...


So you are saying your company intends to gouge him on shipping should he elect not to have you fix it (which is 100% understandable given the situation from his perspective)?

Shipping cost should be actual shipping cost, and the company shouldn't be making a profit on it. Especially after denying a pretty darn obvious warranty issue.


----------



## ChilliConCarnage

CaliBuddha said:


> The problem w/ all of this is Pete was doing some things that he shouldn't have been doing and I'll leave it at that...


Been casually following this thread for the same reasons I find it hard to switch off the Kardashians TV show. 

If you'd asked me before reading the above quote, I probably would have sided with Pete. But anytime you only hear one side of a story, it's always got some skew to it - so now I'm uber curious as to what really happened here.

Pete - could you possibly explain what you were doing? Because the above quote implies that you were doing something weird like having carnal realtions with your bike while bungie jumping. (It's a pretty bike, so NTTAWWT). Inquiring minds want to know.....


----------



## GoingCarbon

CaliBuddha said:


> I haven't seen the frame myself as I don't know where it is but I'm told it is here. The problem w/ all of this is Pete was doing some things that he shouldn't have been doing and I'll leave it at that...


Surely that's an outrageous statement  

You original posts indicated you would offer an independent opinion but your above comment suggests either a cover up or an attempt to discredit infopete.

For me you owe infopete an apology or an explanation


----------



## froze

If the election is to fix the bike for $100 then go for it and get it over with. It's a much better deal to pay $100 then to get a Litespeed C1 because the Cielo is a far nicer bike. Pay the $100 plus shipping and call it quits...I would do that in a flash.


----------



## infopete

I've never been offered anything regarding a repair. I asked the woman from the warranty department for a price weeks and weeks ago and I have never had a reply.

And, please tell me what I've been doing that I shouldn't have been doing?


----------



## notoriousdjw

the-dude said:


> This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's head. Luckily I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind limber.


Gotta go get more popcorn...


----------



## penn_rider

Every time I begin to post, one of you makes sense for me and I delete or decline to write. But the statement from the insider is ill advised and such an unofficial mistake to make. Did ABG give you the authority to toss out dollar figures and basically say that they will gouge on the shipping if he did not have his bike fixed by you? Not to mention the blaming of the customer for this...
I am at a loss and will not ever think of spending money with ABG nor will I ever recommend any of their brands...

*belch*

And that's the end of that..


----------



## paloaltorider

So I don't understand why they (ABG) are being so cryptic in their assertions that infopete did something wrong with the merlin? Just say what he did. If it is so blatantly obvious that he invalidated the warranty, it should be obvious to all observers. 

ABG does have every incentive to prove him wrong in order to save the bad PR they are garnering from this thread. And they are generating a ton of bad PR from this thread. The clientele that purchase high end bikes i.e. people with a lot of disposable income appreciate artisans that stand behind their product. Not only that but we value peoples’ word above all else. If you tell me that you have a lifetime warranty you had better back it up. When I pay a decent amount for a product, I not only pay for the actual product but I also pay for the accompanying service. This seems the biggest transgression of ABG. They violated the service part of their contract.

Because of this thread, I don’t believe many customers (myself included) would take a chance with ABG products. Why? Not because Infopete has proven his case. Far from it...but because ABG has failed to prove theirs. If I purchase a product like a custom ti bike with a lifetime warranty, I should not have to prove my warranty issue. ABG should treat their customer’s with respect and give them, the benefit of the doubt. It seems that this equation has been flipped 180 degrees. They are assumming infopete is guilty, without proving in that he invalidated the manufacturer’s guarantee. Why would I spend my money on a company that views its customers with warranty issues this way? This failure to understand this key concept, is why I believe people are outraged on this thread. 

I am thankful that I own a serotta for my ti roadsetup. I have yet to hear of someone with a seven, a Kish, a Strong, or a moots being treated like this. These manufacturers are much smaller than ABG and their relative loss from repairing a frame is so much higher than a large company like ABG. It just boggles the mind as to why they are willing to lose such goodwill for such a pittance. Then again, if you are a corporate giant you may have lost touch with your customers anyway. 

Infopete, my heartfelt sympathy. I do understand your doggedness in this conflict. When someone maligns my honor or my honesty, I will stop at nothing to prove my case.


----------



## CaliBuddha

You're right. I shouldn't have thrown numbers out there b/c they are not 100% accurate. Pete didn't do anything to the frame as far as I know. I have been talking w/ Warranty about what is really going on. I don't want to see anyone get ripped off, not get their bike back or whatever. I'm trying to get all sides of the story and I'm hearing several different things here and there.


----------



## atpjunkie

*well that is what happens*



paloaltorider said:


> Why would I spend my money on a company that views its customers with warranty issues this way? This failure to understand this key concept, is why I believe people are outraged on this thread.
> 
> I am thankful that I own a serotta for my ti roadsetup. I have yet to hear of someone with a seven, a Kish, a Strong, or a moots being treated like this. These manufacturers are much smaller than ABG and their relative loss from repairing a frame is so much higher than a large company like ABG. It just boggles the mind as to why they are willing to lose such goodwill for such a pittance. Then again, if you are a corporate giant you may have lost touch with your customers anyway.
> 
> Infopete, my heartfelt sympathy. I do understand your doggedness in this conflict. When someone maligns my honor or my honesty, I will stop at nothing to prove my case.



when a corporate giant buys up a boutique company
what makes the boutique company great (service) is usually the first thing tossed out the window

and yes, lost touch or just doesn't care


----------



## Bacana

I think CaliBuddha is trying to help and doesn't necessarily represent the 'official' stance of ABG. It's good to hear what he has to say, IMO.

Also, I don't think a business can divulge a customer's information without permission; it's just not right to do so.


----------



## infopete

Once again, let me say, I have never had an offer of $100 repair from ABG.

If I had, I would have accepted and not spent days and days on the internet trying to get my Merlin back.

As to the shipping, I have always understood I would have to pay for shipping.

So ABG send me an offer or make it later today when I phone.


----------



## andresmuro

infopete said:


> Once again, let me say, I have never had an offer of $100 repair from ABG.
> 
> If I had, I would have accepted and not spent days and days on the internet trying to get my Merlin back.
> 
> As to the shipping, I have always understood I would have to pay for shipping.
> 
> So ABG send me an offer or make it later today when I phone.


If they have offered to repair the frame originally from something like 100-300, I think that it would have been very reasonable. That would have not represented an investment on their part and would have satisfied you, I think. I think that they have lost a lot of potential customers with their display. 

If you had posted an email saying that after your cielo failed, Merlin promptly repaired it for $300, I would have been inclined to consider them because they seem to be willing to back up their products at minimum cost. Now they lost me a s a client. In the past, I have always admired merlin for the beautiful ti bikes they produced and have always considered an extra light, cirene or classic. That will never happen now.

The only way for Merlin to save face is to post a huge apology letter saying that the employee who made the decision was erred and that they will fix your bike for free and compensate you w/ additional goodies for inconveniencing you, etc, etc. They should also state that future guarantee problems would be handled in a much better fashion in order to make their clients, who pay big bucks for a ti frame, happy.


----------



## krisdrum

Bacana said:


> I think CaliBuddha is trying to help and doesn't necessarily represent the 'official' stance of ABG. It's good to hear what he has to say, IMO.
> 
> Also, I don't think a business can divulge a customer's information without permission; it's just not right to do so.


I agree that Cali is trying to help, and based on pete's description of the communications so far, Cali is the only ABG employee trying to help.

But throwing $ figures around without back-up is ill-advised.

Hopefully ABG's quote to make the repair and ship the bike back won't be too far off from Cali's 'ballpark". 

And I hope that ABG does the right thing by pete and repairs his frame for a reasonable cost, if any. That will save a bit of face or at least stop the bleeding.


----------



## Keeping up with Junior

*J R A*



krisdrum said:


> ...But throwing $ figures around without back-up is ill-advised...


Hey, no big deal, it's the internet! Where everyone can become a metallurgy expert and reach a well founded conclusion based on some web photos and hearing one side of the story. Not sure who is right or wrong but there is a definite slant in this thread, kind of like when a car hits a cyclist and the immediate conclusion on the bike forums is that the auto driver is at fault.


----------



## krisdrum

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Hey, no big deal, it's the internet! Where everyone can become a metallurgy expert and reach a well founded conclusion based on some web photos and hearing one side of the story. Not sure who is right or wrong but there is a definite slant in this thread, kind of like when a car hits a cyclist and the immediate conclusion on the bike forums is that the auto driver is at fault.


Huh? What does that have to do with the piece of text you quoted from me?

Believe Pete or not, that is your opinion.

The piece you quoted is in reference to an identified employee of the company referenced in this thread "publishing" $ figures for repairs. I'm sure he meant well, but not a smart business move, especially considering the heated tone this thread has taken on and the amount of views it is receiving.


----------



## Keeping up with Junior

*Anonymous*

Ain't the internet great?




krisdrum said:


> The piece you quoted is in reference to an identified employee of the company referenced in this thread "publishing" $ figures for repairs.


Guess I must have missed reading one of the many post. My recollection was that an *anonymous* person on the internet who says he works for ABG threw out a ballpark estimate for the repair of a bike which he says he has not actually seen. 



krisdrum said:


> ...but not a smart business move...


Well I do not think ABG getting into a pissing match on the internet with a customer over a warranty claim would be a smart business move either. But many people watching this thread seem to expect that ABG tell their side of the story on the internet.

Remember through all of this we are only hearing one side of the story.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Ain't the internet great?
> 
> 
> 
> But many people watching this thread seem to expect that ABG tell their side of the story on the internet.
> 
> .


I think ABG really shot themselves in the foot by not doing so. How much do they pay in advertising costs? Yet the internet and these forums are free. So they could have done themselves a lot of good by getting on here and stating their case.

Most people understand this; and are interpreting ABG's silence as a tacit admission of "guilt" or at least an uncooperative attitude.


----------



## krisdrum

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Ain't the internet great?
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I must have missed reading one of the many post. My recollection was that an *anonymous* person on the internet who says he works for ABG threw out a ballpark estimate for the repair of a bike which he says he has not actually seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I do not think ABG getting into a pissing match on the internet with a customer over a warranty claim would be a smart business move either. But many people watching this thread seem to expect that ABG tell their side of the story on the internet.
> 
> Remember through all of this we are only hearing one side of the story.


Point taken. My "grain of salt" meter was running low.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

Wow. This thread is like the Energizer Bunny. I've been watching, popcorn in hand, for two weeks, and have a couple of observations.

First, most are taking infopete's information as fact. Some have posted in excess of 20 times to support and defend him. info's posts may very well be factual. They probably are. I have no reason to disbelieve him. But I also have no reason to take his information as fact or the whole story either. There is always another side. And as CaliBudda implies, there may be other information from the other side regarding the situation that we are not privy to.

Second, several have suggested that ABG ought to jump into this thread, present their side of the story, and/or issue a public apology. It's never going to happen. A corporation is not going to go on open forum to discuss specifics of an ongoing issue with a single customer. Their legal representation would have a seizure, and it's just not good business, especially if there are similar open issues with other customers. It's a Pandora's Box. What ABG should be doing, is making a good faith effort to resolve the issue directly with the customer, even if they can't do it under warranty. It sounds like ABG thinks they have done that, while infopete thinks they haven't - hence the disconnect.


----------



## rx-79g

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Wow. This thread is like the Energizer Bunny. I've been watching, popcorn in hand, for two weeks, and have a couple of observations.
> 
> First, most are taking infopete's information as fact. Some have posted in excess of 20 times to support and defend him. info's posts may very well be factual. They probably are. I have no reason to disbelieve him. But I also have no reason to take his information as fact or the whole story either. There is always another side. And as CaliBudda implies, there may be other information from the other side regarding the situation that we are not privy to.
> 
> Second, several have suggested that ABG ought to jump into this thread, present their side of the story, and/or issue a public apology. It's never going to happen. A corporation is not going to go on open forum to discuss specifics of an ongoing issue with a single customer. Their legal representation would have a seizure, and it's just not good business, especially if there are similar open issues with other customers. It's a Pandora's Box. What ABG should be doing, is making a good faith effort to resolve the issue directly with the customer, even if they can't do it under warranty. It sounds like ABG thinks they have done that, while infopete thinks they haven't - hence the disconnect.


It wouldn't be without precedent for a company to clarify a warranty dismissal on a forum. As someone posted a link on one of these ABG threads, Serotta has done just that.

The problem here is that Infopete's story is compelling. Those who have been around bike forums for long enough get used to the telltales of a half story or someone who is just trying to libel a company. Pete's story has been consistant, free of invective and entirely too plausible given my own lackluster ABG warranty experience.

Infopete does not seem to be on any sort of smear campaign. From the beginning he has asked for help in pressuring ABG to do something about his frame failure. ABG has acknowledged that this Cielo failure exists and that Pete is a real person in email exchanges with several people not involved, myself included. And now we have an ABG employee talking about it. 

Frames don't have moving parts, they don't need "service", oil or proper operating temperatures. Therefore, when they break it can only be due to two things - outside forces beyond design, or defects. ABG provided the pictures Pete posted, and if the pictures are incomplete, ABG can certainly provide the rest of them - if they are interested in doing so, since Pete already made them public. But those are not pictures of anything like an accident or abuse that ANYONE here has ever seen.

So we have a consistant but one sided story, with pictures and confirmation from ABG, of a frame that doesn't look crashed and is still sitting in TN for some mysterious reason. It isn't that it is all clearly ABG's fault, but they only have so many ways of dealing with this situation left to them.

It is a crappy situation all around. No one is going to be entirely happy with the outcome after all of this - not Pete, ABG or potential ABG customers. I think most of us believe that this is more complicated than presented, but some of the complications seem to involve ABGs shift away from titanium production and a general lack of care in handling warranties of late. I would like to hear that ABG has done or will do the correct thing, but my own experience leads me to believe that this has not been well handled so far.


----------



## infopete

I telephoned ABG today (isn't skype amazing) but you can't telephone the warranty department, only email.

I asked to speak to the boss and others but they were all out.

I'll try tomorrow.

:mad2:


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

Are you a lawyer? You sure like to argue and make a case. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just say'n.


----------



## infopete

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Are you a lawyer? You sure like to argue and make a case. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just say'n.


Naaaaa I'm a cyclist without a bike, Just say'n :mad2:


----------



## T K

infopete said:


> Naaaaa I'm a cyclist without a bike, Just say'n :mad2:


 I don't think he was talking to you. He was refering to the guy in post #304.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

T K said:


> I don't think he was talking to you. He was refering to the guy in post #304.


Correctomundo. Intended for rx-79g.


----------



## B2

infopete said:


> I telephoned ABG today (isn't skype amazing) but you can't telephone the warranty department, only email.
> 
> I asked to speak to the boss and others but they were all out.
> 
> I'll try tomorrow.


Good Move!! Email and forums have their place, but if you truly want resolution to this, you need to talk to each other. Unfortunately (or not) it sounds like there needs to be a little give and take from both sides to get it all worked out. You have voiced your desire to participate in the solution. Let's hope ABG feels the same way. I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## andresmuro

Keeping up with Junior said:


> Ain't the internet great?
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I must have missed reading one of the many post. My recollection was that an *anonymous* person on the internet who says he works for ABG threw out a ballpark estimate for the repair of a bike which he says he has not actually seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I do not think ABG getting into a pissing match on the internet with a customer over a warranty claim would be a smart business move either. But many people watching this thread seem to expect that ABG tell their side of the story on the internet.
> 
> Remember through all of this we are only hearing one side of the story.


I love to hear the other side of the story too. If they don't want to post it on the internet, how will we know? There has to be a means for a company that is attacked by members of the public to battle for its image. Most corporations do so one way or the other. If they have a legitimate grievance, I like to hear it. An F rating from the BBB, several unresolved claims, etc suggest that this is not the first time their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. 

forums like this ought to be places for grievances between businesses and the public can be discussed. In fact, there are some businesses that, in fact, do that. 

Bikes direct is a small company that seems to do well by its customers but is often criticized. However, the owner, regularly posts trying sharing his position and trying to offer explanations. There are even Chinese manufacturers that have, on occasion posted in these forums to clear out an issue. 

I cannot believe that ABG cannot articulate the other side for gullible and naive people like me to figure out the truth that pete is hiding. 

Until I hear the other side of the story, I will not be able to get a good image of ABG. In my ignorance I will chose to believe the member of the public sharing his truth to the silence of the corporation who subtly tries to subvert the act of the public by stating that there is another side. I'm sure that ABG does not care for my preferences and your message has trully persuaded the other ignorant members of this forum that pete is liying. 

In terms of public spaces, these sorts of forums are some of the most democratic spaces that a society can hope for. I prefer that to the quiet negotiations between corporations and individuals. I for one rather side with the evil member of the public than with the benign mega corporation. But that is just gullible me.


----------



## andresmuro

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Wow. This thread is like the Energizer Bunny. I've been watching, popcorn in hand, for two weeks, and have a couple of observations.
> 
> First, most are taking infopete's information as fact. Some have posted in excess of 20 times to support and defend him. info's posts may very well be factual. They probably are. I have no reason to disbelieve him. But I also have no reason to take his information as fact or the whole story either. There is always another side. And as CaliBudda implies, there may be other information from the other side regarding the situation that we are not privy to.
> 
> Second, several have suggested that ABG ought to jump into this thread, present their side of the story, and/or issue a public apology. It's never going to happen. A corporation is not going to go on open forum to discuss specifics of an ongoing issue with a single customer. Their legal representation would have a seizure, and it's just not good business, especially if there are similar open issues with other customers. It's a Pandora's Box. What ABG should be doing, is making a good faith effort to resolve the issue directly with the customer, even if they can't do it under warranty. It sounds like ABG thinks they have done that, while infopete thinks they haven't - hence the disconnect.



actually, the corporation has many ways to publicly remedying their image. a simple way is contacting the customer, solving the grievance and seeing what happens. I've seen it many times in these groups that once the corporation makes amends, the customer posts what the company has done, restoring their good image. 

The public apology is not a letter directed to us saying "Dear members of RBR:".
It is resolving with the customer the issue in a way that will help them to recover their public image. It will have to be a grand gesture for me to recover their face in them. That is something that they will have to solve with pete and pete will have to share. 

There could be some "leaks" about how ABG has made a trully honest effort to re mediate the situation but pete has ignore them. Other leaks could state that Tom Kellog, or other respected ti guy, saw the frame and determined that it was in fact a crash. 

Corporations are not defenseless weak puppies. They are megaempires that don't give a **** about customers beyond their own bottom line. In this case they screwed up. 

Before the internet, a customer had to rely on expensive representation to battle a mega-corporation. Fortunately, this forum has given the weaker member in the confrontation to somewhat equalize the odds.


----------



## infopete

T K said:


> I don't think he was talking to you. He was refering to the guy in post #304.


OOoooooops sorry :blush2:


----------



## skygodmatt

Ah yes...

The old "Don't call us because we don't have a phone" 
Seems to be more common these days with companies. The downside to email.


Will someone please pass the popcorn?...


----------



## HigherGround

rx-79g said:


> No one is going to be entirely happy with the outcome after all of this - not Pete, ABG or *potential ABG customers*.


Are there any left?


----------



## rx-79g

HigherGround said:


> Are there any left?


I think if it was suddenly revealed that ABG was in the right about some of the things we've been hearing, then some people might give them the benefit.

At this point, we don't _really_ know what's really going on. All we know is Pete's convincing side of the story.


----------



## HigherGround

rx-79g said:


> I think if it was suddenly revealed that ABG was in the right about some of the things we've been hearing, then some people might give them the benefit.
> 
> At this point, we don't _really_ know what's really going on. All we know is Pete's convincing side of the story.


Fair enough.


----------



## jlwdm

BetweenRides said:


> Here's the scoop on Merlin, straight from the original horse's mouth:
> 
> http://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...ial-everyone-back-working-together-19101.html


Thread was moved to VSalon; Smoked Out; Spectrum Cycles; page 5; post 99.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/spectrum-cycles-16052-5.html


Jeff


----------



## Kuma601

> Tom Kellog: OK, now I'll make it official, everyone is back working together
> 
> Both Merlin (now ABG) and Seven Cycles have their hands in producing our titanium frames.


Not diving into the other posts of that thread, does ABG still have control of the warranty on past frames or will Seven be handling it?


----------



## jkm

The way I read it, the only relationship that Seven has with ABG is sourcing tubing for Tom Kellogg's custom Spectrum frames. ABG is responsible for warranties on ABG bikes, and Seven for Seven bikes. Any problems with Spectrum will be dealt with through Mr. Kellogg. I am certain he will take care of his customers fairly.


----------



## infopete

I have just received an email from ABG:

"_The issue regarding your Merlin Cielo has been forwarded to me for resolution. As a deviation from our normal practice we will offer you two options: 

1.)	We will ship the frame back to you as is, with a letter stating our determination regarding the denial of the warranty claim and the fact that the frame is deemed unsafe in its current condition and therefore we will accept no liability regarding use of the frame. 
2.)	As a one-time consideration, we will agree to repair the frame at our cost, provided you cease the “bullying” activities that you have engaged in. You will be expected to agree to this in writing. This does not mean that we have changed our determination, but as reasonable people we are going above and beyond to attempt to satisfy you. 

Please reply to this email and advise which option you would like to take. If I have not gotten a reply within the next 5 business days, the frame will be shipped back to you as is. _ 
"

I have accepted their offer of a repair.

It's time to move on but before I do, I have to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who has supported me.

Thank you all.


----------



## andresmuro

infopete said:


> I have just received an email from ABG:
> 
> "_The issue regarding your Merlin Cielo has been forwarded to me for resolution. As a deviation from our normal practice we will offer you two options:
> 
> 1.)	We will ship the frame back to you as is, with a letter stating our determination regarding the denial of the warranty claim and the fact that the frame is deemed unsafe in its current condition and therefore we will accept no liability regarding use of the frame.
> 2.)	As a one-time consideration, we will agree to repair the frame at our cost, provided you cease the “bullying” activities that you have engaged in. You will be expected to agree to this in writing. This does not mean that we have changed our determination, but as reasonable people we are going above and beyond to attempt to satisfy you.
> 
> Please reply to this email and advise which option you would like to take. If I have not gotten a reply within the next 5 business days, the frame will be shipped back to you as is. _
> "
> 
> I have accepted their offer of a repair.
> 
> It's time to move on but before I do, I have to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who has supported me.
> 
> Thank you all.


Congratulations Pete. I'm glad you will get your frame repaired at cost, and that you will stop engaging them here.

However, I'd like to share my perspective on ABS. 

1. It was not you who bullied them at least in public. You made your desire to arrive to a satisfactory solution for an uber expensive bike that you purchased. They should have repaired immediately

2. You were always. polite and reasonable in your public engagements with them. I don't know how your private interactions with them was.

3. In my eyes, ABS has not gone above and beyond their responsibilities as reasonable people. In fact, they did just opposite. They never proved your frame was crashed. Reasonableness would have meant that they offered to repair your investment at cost from the beginning. 

4. What are other customers of ABS expect? If in your case they went above and beyond as a one time action, they will not act the same way for other investors in their products. 

5. I for one will never invest in a bike from them. My long time admiration for Merlin and Litespeed has completely and forever disappeared.

6. Public discussions about corporations' mistreatment of customers are not bulling. It gives the individual an opportunity to bring dissatisfaction to the public eye. I am glad that we have this resource and that you used it to your satisfaction. This doesn't mean that people will buy into any public attack on a business. There are other people who criticize them and this fall on deaf years. Yours was reasonable and that is the reason it was successful.


----------



## infopete

Before I get tooooooo excited ABG are sending me "terms" tomorrow 

:mad2:


----------



## krisdrum

Bullying? Not sure that is the word I would have used. Mr. Webster says this about "bully": 1: to treat abusively 2: to affect by means of force or coercion. I guess they could claim the coercion part, but that might be a bit of a stretch. I'm certainly not aware of Pete making any threats towards them (the more common definition when I think of bully). If he did make any assertions about potential next steps on his end, they appear to be completely within his legal right. 

Regardless, I applaud Pete's persistence. Many of us would have given up long ago and companies like ABG take advantage of that. It is the same thing when the little guy sues the big guy and the big guy just keeps issuing frivilous motions to drain the little guy's money. If Pete is 1 in 10 of every warranty customer they are getting, they should consider themselves lucky. They have lost alot of potential customers through this and they would have saved themselves alot of grief and retained potential future revenue if they had provided some options right off the bat. Really short sighted.


----------



## DrD

infopete said:


> Before I get tooooooo excited ABG are sending me "terms" tomorrow


I am sure their "terms" will basically ask you to sign a legal document that you will no longer post/discuss this issue or otherwise badmouth ABG in the future, and in exchange, they will repair your frame and send it back - I can't imagine it would be more than that, and imho, that's perfectly reasonable - they want the issue resolved, and don't want it to haunt them after they try to bring it to a conclusion.


----------



## ZoomBoy

I guess that bullying is by their definition not caving in or backing down when you feel that you are right. Good for you. I hope this all works out in the end and I will never buy any ABG product ever!

Jeff


----------



## krisdrum

DrD said:


> I am sure their "terms" will basically ask you to sign a legal document that you will no longer post/discuss this issue or otherwise badmouth ABG in the future, and in exchange, they will repair your frame and send it back - I can't imagine it would be more than that, and imho, that's perfectly reasonable - they want the issue resolved, and don't want it to haunt them after they try to bring it to a conclusion.


Hopefully true. It is too bad if they had done things differently initially, there would be no need for additional terms on a repair of this nature.

I know if I were in Pete's shoes and they had come back with, we do not agree it is a warranty issue, but we can make the repair for a small charge, this thread and the others out there would have never existed. They made no attempt to satisfy their customer initially.

The price of bad press like this far outweighs the cost of satisfying a customer during the initial request.


----------



## Jetmugg

I wouldn't sign anything unless I was advised by my own lawyer to do so.

SteveM.


----------



## rx-79g

infopete said:


> I have just received an email from ABG:
> 
> "_The issue regarding your Merlin Cielo has been forwarded to me for resolution. As a deviation from our normal practice we will offer you two options:
> 
> 1.)	We will ship the frame back to you as is, with a letter stating our determination regarding the denial of the warranty claim and the fact that the frame is deemed unsafe in its current condition and therefore we will accept no liability regarding use of the frame.
> 2.)	As a one-time consideration, we will agree to repair the frame at our cost, provided you cease the “bullying” activities that you have engaged in. You will be expected to agree to this in writing. This does not mean that we have changed our determination, but as reasonable people we are going above and beyond to attempt to satisfy you.
> 
> Please reply to this email and advise which option you would like to take. If I have not gotten a reply within the next 5 business days, the frame will be shipped back to you as is. _
> "
> 
> I have accepted their offer of a repair.
> 
> It's time to move on but before I do, I have to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who has supported me.
> 
> Thank you all.


Congratulations. This was never going to be resolved any better than this since you took it public, so this is a victory.

If the document is what they say it is, sign it and stick to it. You're not going to do better than that. Good luck.


----------



## Kwantani

*Is Merlin Cielo repairable?*

Cielo repairable at all?
You gonna re-weld the ti dropout with a new one? what happen to all the carbon tubing after the weld? Hopefully the carbon tube won't burned to ashes after the ti welding is done. Are you gonna un-glue all the carbon tubes before attempt to perform ti welding?
then re-glue them again? is it even possible to reglue it? 

maybe this is one of the reason merlin refuse to service your bike, because they will have to give you a new one.


----------



## Bacana

Of course it's completely your decision, but I personally would not like the thought of having a gag order issued to me for only a few hundred dollars.

Pure speculation here, but I imagine that the Wordpress site you threw up (not vomited) would be more unwelcome than this thread. In fact, were ABG to pursue a legal avenue, they could probably get the site taken down since the name of the sub-domain incorporates (or better, uses entirely) a registered trademark.

No matter what, there are probably several thousand people here familiar with your story. The damage has been done, and could have easily been avoided. I think in this case, a little politeness (calling your tactics 'bullying'?? C'mon! What corporation talks like that?) and common sense would have gone a long, long way.

I'm surprised that they're not claiming copyright on the photos or the emails.

Most important thing, though, is that you feel happy and enjoy riding that beautiful bike of yours. (Have I mentioned that I have a Merlin, too? I think now I'd go to Tom Kellogg before I'd go to ABG for my next titanium bike, though.)

And heaven forfend your Merlin break again...


----------



## rx-79g

Kwantani said:


> Cielo repairable at all?
> You gonna re-weld the ti dropout with a new one? what happen to all the carbon tubing after the weld? Hopefully the carbon tube won't burned to ashes after the ti welding is done. Are you gonna un-glue all the carbon tubes before attempt to perform ti welding?
> then re-glue them again? is it even possible to reglue it?
> 
> maybe this is one of the reason merlin refuse to service your bike, because they will have to give you a new one.


Go back to post #63 and LOOK at the picture of the dropouts. The carbon stays are bolted to the dropouts. They will unbolt them for the welds.


----------



## FatTireFred

curious how much? and did you ask them if bullying includes sending cops to your door? don't think they win back any lost customers on this, esp w/ the tone used


----------



## Bacana

FatTireFred said:


> curious how much? and did you ask them if bullying includes sending cops to your door?


Haha. Great point.



FatTireFred said:


> don't think they win back any lost customers on this, esp w/ the tone used


Agreed. Whoever's handling the corporate communications needs to get up to speed on how to communicate with customers in the age of the Internet.


----------



## B2

*Terms*



rx-79g said:


> Congratulations. This was never going to be resolved any better than this since you took it public, so this is a victory.
> 
> If the document is what they say it is, sign it and stick to it. You're not going to do better than that. Good luck.


Reasonable "terms" would limit the ABG "gag order" to this particular issue / warranty claim. Knowing they have the attorneys involved, my guess is that it will not restrict infopete's discussion to just this issue and therefore require his silence regarding all future and independent ABG issues. None the less, it's time to move on. If it were me I would sign it.


----------



## T K

infopete said:


> I have just received an email from ABG:
> 
> "_ As a deviation from our "NORMAL PRACTICE"
> 
> 2.)	As a "ONE-TIME" consideration
> 
> _


_
Translation: We are still right, you are wrong! So don't any other customer who ever has a problem expect us to fix it for you, EVER!!!!!!!!!_


----------



## FatTireFred

B2 said:


> Reasonable "terms" would limit the ABG "gag order" to this particular issue / warranty claim. Knowing they have the attorneys involved, my guess is that it will not restrict infopete's discussion to just this issue and therefore require his silence regarding all future and independent ABG issues. None the less, it's time to move on. If it were me I would sign it.




he should make them agree that repairs shall be completed in a reasonable amount of time and to his satisfaction... given how they have dealt w/ this it would not surprise me if they try to do an ugly bs halfarsed repair for him


----------



## Kwantani

That will take care of the carbon seat stays. What about the carbon seattube and downtube? don't they need to be "removed" before welding?



rx-79g said:


> Go back to post #63 and LOOK at the picture of the dropouts. The carbon stays are bolted to the dropouts. They will unbolt them for the welds.


----------



## Jetmugg

Kwantani said:


> That will take care of the carbon seat stays. What about the carbon seattube and downtube? don't they need to be "removed" before welding?



If the frame gets hot enough from welding the dropouts that the seat tube and down tube are damaged, then I'd say the torch is set a little bit too high.


----------



## Mapei

Eighteen thousand and a half views, so far. Over three hundred posts. Boy did that corporation screw up....


----------



## giantdefy2

Mapei said:


> Eighteen thousand and a half views, so far. Over three hundred posts. Boy did that corporation screw up....


Thats 18K less possible future customers. Plus the folks that have viewed this thread will tell their friends, the numbers increase exponentially. It would have been way cheaper for them to just send the OP a new frame. Id like to see how their sales will compare this year vs the previous years. Major screw up on their part! This I guarantee will affect their whole product line. I personally wanted a Merlin myself until I came across several threads like this. Now my money is with Lynskey, way better reputation.


----------



## rx-79g

Kwantani said:


> That will take care of the carbon seat stays. What about the carbon seattube and downtube? don't they need to be "removed" before welding?


Nope. Welding heat won't travel across 40cm of tubing in any appreciable way. And epoxies are good for at least 200 degrees F.

Even if it was a problem, a wet rag wrapped around the center of the tubes would stop the heat from propagating.

This is not the first time a Ti/carbon bike has been repaired.


----------



## krisdrum

FatTireFred said:


> he should make them agree that repairs shall be completed in a reasonable amount of time and to his satisfaction... given how they have dealt w/ this it would not surprise me if they try to do an ugly bs halfarsed repair for him


I was thinking something very similar. No harm in putting your own terms on things.


----------



## robdamanii

Personally, I'd take the frame, spend the money to have it repaired by someone who knows what they're doing in the first place (it wouldn't have failed if welded properly the first time, right?) and tell them to take their terms and shove 'em. 

There's something inherently wrong to me with a corporation trying to "make this all go away" by flexing the muscle of their legal team. That email was sarcastic and patronizing, and that in itself would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Look at it this way: you were thinking of buying a chinese carbon frame? Take that money and use it to fix your baby, and move on. Leave ABG with yet another stain on their reputation and forget about ever purchasing from them again.


----------



## Kuma601

What are they accomplishing by hiding/silencing you in their terms?! That looks bad again. I'm glad there is a resolution in site, I don't like them silencing you by hanging this "carrot" in front of you...meaning fixing the frame, then telling you to STFU. 

What many of us want to see is a happy consumer not one gagged into silence. If they had fixed your frame and then sent along a new one for the PITA, you'd probably be very happy and tell all of us..."Hey, the peeps at ABG do have their end user's happiness in mind." That would have carried others over to buy. I'm not implying ABG throw their business model out and do this for every broken frame which would run themselves out of the biz. Their handling plain sucked from what I've read here. The consensus is us jumping up-down over their treatment of you. :nono:

I had looked at a Merlin Cielo and Cyrene at a LBS some years ago. The Cyrene was to ornate for me but the Cielo was within the upper limits of my reach. I've wanted a Ti frame at some point. Obviously dealing with CS like this is a big turn off. 

We look forward to hearing how masterfully they fixed your frame and you have a  riding it again. :thumbsup:


----------



## rx-79g

Kuma601 said:


> What are they accomplishing by hiding/silencing you in their terms?! That looks bad again. I'm glad there is a resolution in site, I don't like them silencing you by hanging this "carrot" in front of you...meaning fixing the frame, then telling you to STFU.
> 
> What many of us want to see is a happy consumer not one gagged into silence. If they had fixed your frame and then sent along a new one for the PITA, you'd probably be very happy and tell all of us..."Hey, the peeps at ABG do have their end user's happiness in mind." That would have carried others over to buy. I'm not implying ABG throw their business model out and do this for every broken frame which would run themselves out of the biz. Their handling plain sucked from what I've read here. The consensus is us jumping up-down over their treatment of you. :nono:
> 
> I had looked at a Merlin Cielo and Cyrene at a LBS some years ago. The Cyrene was to ornate for me but the Cielo was within the upper limits of my reach. I've wanted a Ti frame at some point. Obviously dealing with CS like this is a big turn off.
> 
> We look forward to hearing how masterfully they fixed your frame and you have a  riding it again. :thumbsup:


By asking Pete to shut up, ABG is making their problem go away. And that's fair.

Pete made this public to get a repair out of ABG that they did not believe was their fault. They are doing the repair for free in exchange for him shutting up already.

Remember - from ABGs perspective (right or wrong) this isn't a warranty situation. From our perspective, having heard only one side, it is. But we're in armchairs.

It's a good deal. Both parties get what they want - an end to this.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

giantdefy2 said:


> Thats 18K less possible future customers.


I don't think so. The thread does have legs, and it did finally get ABG's attention. But I believe that is 18K views regardless of whether the viewer has been there before - not 18K individuals. Some have viewed this thread hundreds of times. The OP has over 70 posts by himself, and probably 3 or 4 times that many veiws.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

krisdrum said:


> I was thinking something very similar. No harm in putting your own terms on things.


Think of this as a long hard negotiation, where the holdout finally caves. But they still want to hold some cards and save some face, so they ask for something back. So you capitulate a little, agree to the terms, get it done, and move on. No sense in trying to negotiate the "terms" now. You may lose everything you just gained. If there is nothing fatal in there, just go with it. In business, not all successful negotiations conclude with drinks, and high fives.

As for ABG's attitude - remember that infopete shared his e-mail from ABG, which was intended to be private, and not meant for public consumption on this forum. Frankly, I think that was inappropriate on pete's part. In fact, something like that could cause them to pull their offer, or maybe that post is what prompted the addition of "signing" "written" term. Who knows. He could have just relayed to the Forum that he did get a positive response, without sharing the text, and let it go at that. Others will certainly disagree. But looking beyond that, even if ABG's attitude is crappy, at this point, you just hang the emotions and pride at the door and get this thing finished.


----------



## Bacana

Gimme Shoulder said:


> I don't think so. The thread does have legs, and it did finally get ABG's attention. But I believe that is 18K views regardless of whether the viewer has been there before - not 18K individuals. Some have viewed this thread hundreds of times. The OP has over 70 posts by himself, and probably 3 or 4 times that many veiws.


Yes, every time the page is loaded, a view is recorded. If Google, Yahoo, Bing, Baidu, etc. spider the site, that's a view, too. If a spambot views the page, that's also a view. (And trust me, a lot of bandwidth is wasted to spammers, bots, scraping, etc.)

But it's a lot of views nonetheless.


----------



## jkm

A "deal" is exactly that. ABG made an offer, infopete had the choice to accept or not. I suppose he could counter offer, but the terms are reasonable under the circumstances. ABG should not be expected to let pete have a fixed frame and the freedom to continue to bash their reputation publicly.

Can't have to both ways, folks.


----------



## robdamanii

Gimme Shoulder said:


> Think of this as a long hard negotiation, where the holdout finally caves. But they still want to hold some cards and save some face, so they ask for something back. So you capitulate a little, agree to the terms, get it done, and move on. No sense in trying to negotiate the "terms" now. You may lose everything you just gained. If there is nothing fatal in there, just go with it. In business, not all successful negotiations conclude with drinks, and high fives.
> 
> As for ABG's attitude - remember that infopete shared his e-mail from ABG, which was intended to be private, and not meant for public consumption on this forum. Frankly, I think that was inappropriate on pete's part. In fact, something like that could cause them to pull their offer, or maybe that post is what prompted the addition of "signing" "written" term. Who knows. He could have just relayed to the Forum that he did get a positive response, without sharing the text, and let it go at that. Others will certainly disagree. But looking beyond that, even if ABG's attitude is crappy, at this point, you just hang the emotions and pride at the door and get this thing finished.


Unfortunately, in the digital world, you MUST expect that everything written will see the light of day in the real world at some point. Unless it was marked "strictly confidential for the intended recipient" there's really not much stopping him from sharing with the world. Is it right to do so? Maybe, maybe not, that's up to the morality police to decide.


----------



## infopete

Hi Everyone

In all of this I have only asked for one thing, for my Merlin Cielo to be repaired.

I've not asked for compensation, trinkets or a new bike.

I've only asked for my Merlin Cielo to be repaired under it's Lifetime Warranty.

A Merlin Cielo is a classic and very few bike frames can compare.

The pen pushers at ABG should reflect upon the history of the Merlin brand and realise quality matters.


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

Bacana said:


> But it's a lot of views nonetheless.


Yep. It's a lot of views. And like I said, this thread did grow some legs. (Note that some threads have over 200K views). Just trying to make the point that it really isn't 18K (19K now) "potential customers". It probably boils down to a couple hundred individual bicycling devotees, of which maybe several are actually in the market for a product type that ABG participates in. We on the Forum tend to think of these types of threads as big deals, with huge impacts, because we're soaking in them every day, waiting for the next shoe to drop. The probable reality is that ABG has much bigger fish to fry, the bad press from this one issue is probably not as Earth shaking as we think, it won't really affect their bottom line in any appreciable way, and it's likely nothing more than a nuisance issue for them. That is not to say that bad management or generally inappropriate customer service won't affect their bottom line in a significant way. But then this one issue would just be a symptom of that affliction.


----------



## froze

InfoPete, I knew something was going to happen after I wrote Dan, but I hadn't heard from him so I thought he ignored it, but instead he must have investigated and got with the officers of the company. Maybe by bulling AGB meant having forum members of this forum writing them? All my words were not bulling I can tell you that, but I did tell him I knew who the top officers of the AGB were and that I knew he was under contract with AGB as a consultant and that he knew the officers first hand.

I don't know if he had anything to do with it or not but I did, just in case, wrote a thank you note to him just about a minute ago.

I never read anything here about you bulling them. If posting on forums your complaint is bulling then so be it!!!! Any company who is going to do business with people of a particular group such as cyclists have got to know that we communicate with one another about how businesses treat us. And if a company treats us good then we honor that by doing business with them and spreading the word; if they treat us badly then dishonor that by not doing business and spreading the word. Companies have to know that this is going to happen and eventually the bad companies will lose out and go out of business. This isn't bulling on our part, its self protection. 

If anything AGB bullied you by harassing you all this time!!! I love it when companies try to twist the truth and lay the guilt on us. Regardless, I will never do business with them because I do not want to expose myself to that kind of treatment that you, InfoPete and others on other forums had to endure.

At any rate congratulations, now get the bike fixed and start riding it again. Don't break it again because I doubt the next time will be successful.


Edit: Maybe not as earthshaking in regards to profits...but it could have an impact. This isn't the first time AGB group had a complaint about their warranty hassles, so if you take the sum total of all these forums it could be damaging them more then we think. Once a authorized AGB dealer starts having warranty issues do you think that LBS will just keep selling the bikes? No, and I personally know of one LBS who did stop selling their line of bikes due to that very reason! I know I decided not to buy one because of the compliants, and I know there's at least one of you here on this forum decided not to buy one, and I heard others on other forums over the years say the same thing. So I believe all of this has had some effect.


----------



## froze

Heard back from Dan, all he had to say was: "Sometimes things work out to everybody's satisfaction." Read between the lines everyone.

Well I do hope AGB group will stop thinking their above their customers and go back to the roots which established themselves as one of the best high end bike companies in the world...we can only hope.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

rx-79g said:


> By asking Pete to shut up, ABG is making their problem go away. And that's fair.
> 
> Pete made this public to get a repair out of ABG that they did not believe was their fault. *They are doing the repair for free in exchange for him shutting up already*.
> 
> Remember - from ABGs perspective (right or wrong) this isn't a warranty situation. From our perspective, having heard only one side, it is. But we're in armchairs.
> 
> It's a good deal. Both parties get what they want - an end to this.


Unless I misread something, they are not at all doing the repair for free.

In fact, what they are doing by not quoting a firm price for the repair is leaving themselves complete freedom to charge whatever they want, and that's AFTER the OP has agreed not to talk about it.

Surely this is obvious to all, no?

Not to mention that the ABG guy is certainly no charm school graduate. But then they are not marketing or psychology school graduates, either.

Everything they do seems so slimy and unwholesome.


----------



## Kuma601

infopete said:


> I have just received an email from ABG:
> 
> "_The issue regarding your Merlin Cielo has been forwarded to me for resolution. As a deviation from our normal practice we will offer you two options:
> 
> 1.)	We will ship the frame back to you as is, with a letter stating our determination regarding the denial of the warranty claim and the fact that the frame is deemed unsafe in its current condition and therefore we will accept no liability regarding use of the frame.
> 
> *2.)	As a one-time consideration, we will agree to repair the frame at our cost, provided you cease the “bullying” activities that you have engaged in. You will be expected to agree to this in writing. This does not mean that we have changed our determination, but as reasonable people we are going above and beyond to attempt to satisfy you. *
> 
> Please reply to this email and advise which option you would like to take. If I have not gotten a reply within the next 5 business days, the frame will be shipped back to you as is. _
> "


The repair was agreed on by InfoPete. 
However it is, he's the man and so long as he is happy, this will come to an end. I will be looking forward to his build and him being happy.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

ClarkinHawaii said:


> Unless I misread something, they are not at all doing the repair for free.
> 
> In fact, what they are doing by not quoting a firm price for the repair is leaving themselves complete freedom to charge whatever they want, and that's AFTER the OP has agreed not to talk about it.
> 
> Surely this is obvious to all, no?
> 
> Not to mention that the ABG guy is certainly no charm school graduate. But then they are not marketing or psychology school graduates, either.
> 
> Everything they do seems so slimy and unwholesome.


To clarify: 

My understanding of what they mean by "fixing the frame at their cost" is that they will fix the frame and then decide how much it cost them to do so and then charge the customer that (arbitrary) amount.

Others are interpreting it to mean that they will absorb the cost of fixing the frame (ie free to the customer).

So which applies here?


----------



## T K

I took it as Pete would be paying them to fix the frame at their cost. 
I'd rather just get my frame back, pay someone else to fix it RIGHT and tell em to f off.
At this point I would not trust their worksmanship.


----------



## PlatyPius

I've been reading the title of this thread on the "New Posts" thing for a while now....

Am I the only one who cringes every time they read it?
"*Merlin are refusing to repair my Cielo.... HELP Please"

Merlin IS refusing to repair my Cielo...

*Merlin is a company....an entity. It is not a "they", it is an "it". It IS refusing....


----------



## Bacana

PlatyPius said:


> Am I the only one who cringes every time they read it?
> "*Merlin are refusing to repair my Cielo.... HELP Please"
> 
> Merlin IS refusing to repair my Cielo...
> 
> *Merlin is a company....an entity. It is not a "they", it is an "it". It IS refusing....


Some would say we Americans have it wrong; British usage allows this--Apple are, Microsoft are, Trek are, my family are, etc.


----------



## rx-79g

ClarkinHawaii said:


> To clarify:
> 
> My understanding of what they mean by "fixing the frame at their cost" is that they will fix the frame and then decide how much it cost them to do so and then charge the customer that (arbitrary) amount.
> 
> Others are interpreting it to mean that they will absorb the cost of fixing the frame (ie free to the customer).
> 
> So which applies here?


"Fix at our cost" means ABG pays. It takes some creativity to interpret this phrase differently.


----------



## infopete

I am waiting for the terms which should be with me on Monday so not long to wait 

As long as the terms are not silly I will accept them.

I'll let you all know on Monday.


----------



## wim

Bacana said:


> British usage allows this--Apple are, Microsoft are, Trek are, my family are, etc.


Not only allows it—in British usage, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals than they are not. _The government have not announced a new policy_.


----------



## PlatyPius

wim said:


> Not only allows it—in British usage, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals than they are not. _The government have not announced a new policy_.


I have seen it used occasionally, in an SEO ad on one of my sites and a few other places. My wife - my standard in 'British-Speak' - doesn't use 'are' for companies or other entities. Not while speaking, at least. She may write that way for all I know.

Saying 'Are' just sounds so wrong (since I've been taught otherwise since birth) that I really do cringe. Of course, so does saying 'learnt'...


----------



## robdamanii

Lol. I <3 you platy, I really do.


----------



## PlatyPius

robdamanii said:


> Lol. I <3 you platy, I really do.


Why, because I iz a moron?


----------



## frdfandc

PlatyPius said:


> Why, because I iz a moron?




I think there is a little bit of that in all of us.


----------



## tihsepa

please dont clog up this thread with are english lesson.

start your own thread morons.


----------



## wim

PlatyPius said:


> My wife - my standard in 'British-Speak' - doesn't use 'are' for companies or other entities. Not while speaking, at least.


When I came to America, the little English I knew was British English. Can't remember if using the plural with compound nouns was among those, but very quickly, I dropped as many Britishisms as I could. I sensed, rightly or wrongly, that people thought my speech was, well, "weird."


----------



## froze

INFOPETE; do not respond on this or any other forum UNTIL after you got your bike repaired and in your hands, because they state as one of the conditions not to speak of this matter again. They have some how came to the conclusion that writing about your problems on forums is a form of bullying...they reached deep for that one. Also send a letter okaying the repair by NEXT DAY AIR, regular mail may not reach them in 5 days then they will claim they didn't hear from you in writing in 5 days thus your screwed AGAIN!

The words "fixing the frame at their cost" usually implies that they will fix the frame for free. But even if the words imply we fix you pay for our cost, it's the best offer they have had. It shouldn't cost more then $300 to fix plus shipping back, I would pay for the repair. I hope their implying they will pay for everything. Either way this surely has left in awful impression in InfoPetes mind and on others here about a company that is supposedly is making some of the best bikes in the world. To bad AGB operates this way.

Maybe instead of riding the bike and risk breaking it again, you should just hang it on a wall in the living room as art work!


----------



## CaliBuddha

Posting on the boards was not the form of bullying they were talking about. The full truth is only known by Pete and ABG and I'm sure its best left that way. I'm glad his bike is returning home.


----------



## KenS

CaliBuddha said:


> Posting on the boards was not the form of bullying they were talking about. The full truth is only known by Pete and ABG and I'm sure its best left that way. I'm glad his bike is returning home.


Vague assertions like the above will be fertile ground for conspiracy theories.

ABG should be able to state what actions constituted bullying.


----------



## froze

CaliBuddha said:


> Posting on the boards was not the form of bullying they were talking about. The full truth is only known by Pete and ABG and I'm sure its best left that way. I'm glad his bike is returning home.


You may have a point, however, AGB could also be making it up to save face. Regardless if InfoPete bullied them, that may have occurred only after numerous attempts to get the bike fix under warranty and being denied that. If I sent a bike in for warranty repair and was told I was going to be denied, then after numerous attempts to try to handle it in a nice way, trust me...I would bully them! I would threaten them with small claims, reporting them to the BBB etc. Personally I believe the company initiated the bulling, and InfoPete pushed back and AGB didn't like that. When a major company decides to screw someone your pretty much screwed, with small cheap items you just give up and buy another product from a different company, but with a $8,000 bike you just don't give up. And if in that attempt not to give up comes across as bullying then so be it.

Look, if it can't be determined that the bike broke due to an accident, such as obvious mars or serious bends that an accident would create then AGB should of, even if they thought it may have been a possible accident but they can't prove it, then they should have fixed the bike without asking questions and denial.


----------



## infopete

ABG have clearly stated they think my Merlin Cielo was in an impact.

I pay a lot for insurance for my bicycles and, I can assure you, dealing with my insurance company would have been a lot easier, quicker and cheaper than dealing with ABG.


----------



## robdamanii

PlatyPius said:


> Why, because I iz a moron?


That's why we all <3 ya!


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

rx-79g said:


> "Fix at our cost" means ABG pays. It takes some creativity to interpret this phrase differently.


I agree that it's open to question, which is why I mention it.

Common usage in the US for* "fix at our cost"* means we fix it and then decide how much it cost us to fix it and then you pay us that amount.

Common usage in the US for *"fix at our expense"* means we fix it for free and you don 't pay us anything..

My point is that, according to the terms ABG has laid out, ABG can charge literally anything they want (figures don't lie but liers can figure) and OP's only defense (announcing the rip-off to the world through forums like this) will not be available because of the gag order. So if they decide to charge him $3000, what's he going to do about it?

Since OP is in Britain (where the English sometimes varies from the US variety), he needs to be aware of this subtle point, since it can make a big difference. The ABG guys have not demonstrated that they can be relied upon to act fairly or honorably.


----------



## froze

Interesting point. Then InfoPete needs to specify in his letter to AGB to go ahead with the repairs only if they explain the full cost involved to him...if any.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

froze said:


> Interesting point. Then InfoPete needs to specify in his letter to AGB to go ahead with the repairs only if they explain the full cost involved to him...if any.


Yes, exactly.

Another point--Some people opine that the alleged "bullying" is all this writing on public forums.

Others say that there is "something else" he has been doing which they are calling "bullying".

I would get this point clarified and be very reluctant to give up my right to enlist public opinion on my behalf in the event of further screwings. For instance, what if the "repair" fails the first time he rides it, etc, etc.

Unfortunately I get the opinion that the OP is so tired of this whole deal that he's ready to cave at the first sign of an acceptable solution, without rigorously examining the details of this "solution". This is what ABG is banking on. Don't do it! *ABG has much more to lose than you if this thing drags out unresolved*, so continue to be firm and businesslike. 

Insist on full disclosure in writing and make sure you have some way to announce to the world if there is further misbehavior on the part of ABG. They are trying to pressure you to act fast before you have a chance to really think about it, seek advice, etc--or you lose this wonderful one-time limited-time offer. What a joke. Don't get sucked in!

I wouldn't be surprised if they demand that you remove all your postings on this case and try to get all the threads deleted so future readers can't find out about how they have failed to honor their warranty. I hope you do not agree to this.


----------



## wim

ClarkinHawaii said:


> Unfortunately I get the opinion that the OP is so tired of this whole deal that he's ready to cave at the first sign of an acceptable solution.


I dont know, perhaps it's not all that unfortunate. If your life starts getting dominated by a fanatical quest for justice over a piece of outdoor sports equipment, an imperfect solution may not be such a bad thing. Keep in mind that infopete is bearing the ill effects of this mess, not the peanut gallery.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

wim said:


> I dont know, perhaps it's not all that unfortunate. If your life starts getting dominated by *a fanatical quest for justice *over a piece of outdoor sports equipment, an imperfect solution may not be such a bad thing. Keep in mind that infopete is bearing the ill effects of this mess, not the peanut gallery.


Do you feel in this case that his quest is fanatical?

I personally feel as though he has maintained a positive tone through this thing; and continuing to keep his guard up is especially important now that he has come all this way and is so (seemingly) close to getting what he's after.

But you are entirely correct that the peanut gallery is not suffering the strain as he is; and I really wouldn't have any place criticizing him no matter what he does.

But I hope he hangs tough.


----------



## Jetmugg

ABG's terms will have been drafted by one or more of their corporate lawyers. Their terms will be slanted entirely in their favor.

My recommendation would be to not sign anything unless you are a lawyer yourself, or are advised by your lawyer to do so.

SM


----------



## wim

ClarkinHawaii said:


> Do you feel in this case that his quest is fanatical?


Not yet. But as these things go, it could become fanatical. Not a bad thing if life, love, your family or your honor is at stake. But laser-etched lug decorations notwithstanding, this is only about a bicycle.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

Jetmugg said:


> ABG's terms will have been drafted by one or more of their corporate lawyers. Their terms will be slanted entirely in their favor.
> 
> My recommendation would be to not sign anything unless you are a lawyer yourself, or are advised by your lawyer to do so.
> 
> SM


This is good advice. However, attorneys are expensive and dealing with them can be another hassle in itself.

A good possible alternative could be to say "my attorney has advised me to get everything in writing" whether one actually has retained an attorney or not.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

wim said:


> Not yet. But as these things go, it could become fanatical. Not a bad thing if life, love, your family or your honor is at stake. But laser-etched lug decorations notwithstanding, this is only about a bicycle.


What you say is entirely true if it's just about a bicycle. On the other hand, if it's about the principle involved, which I interpret to mean whether or not a company should be allowed to default on their obligations and treat the helpless customer like s**t, then perhaps it doesn't matter whether the symbolic object is a bicycle or an automobile or an international treaty. 

But I readily concede that it's a matter of personal opinion how one interprets this. It's a hard choice.


----------



## wim

ClarkinHawaii said:


> On the other hand, if it's about the principle involved, which I interpret to mean whether or not a company should be allowed to default on their obligations and treat the helpless customer like s**t, then perhaps it doesn't matter whether the symbolic object is a bicycle or an automobile or an international treaty.


Agree.


----------



## rx-79g

ClarkinHawaii said:


> Do you feel in this case that his quest is fanatical?
> 
> I personally feel as though he has maintained a positive tone through this thing; and continuing to keep his guard up is especially important now that he has come all this way and is so (seemingly) close to getting what he's after.
> 
> But you are entirely correct that the peanut gallery is not suffering the strain as he is; and I really wouldn't have any place criticizing him no matter what he does.
> 
> But I hope he hangs tough.


You, in particular, are making this harder than it should be.

Whatever spin or interpretation your try and put on the language used, it is clear that ABG is going to fix the bike for free.

And however much of a corporation we'd like to think ABG is, it is a relatively small company with one US facility and some offshore manufacturing that makes a few boutique lines of bikes. This isn't Specialized or even Pacific Cycle. They are going to have the local lawyer make sure the language covers the bases, and that language will be straightforward enough that Pete will not need a magic decoder ring to understand it.

Pete won. ABG is relenting and protecting their interests. End of story. 

There is no great "justice" - ABG might not be anyone's favorite group of people right now, but they aren't crooks. They had some honest concerns about what happened to the Cielo. That may be due to nothing more than a lack of imagination on their part.


Pete, at this point I'd start honoring the spirit of the agreement and leave the blogging alone. Read the document, call or email ABG with any questions and get it back to them in a timely manner. When you get the bike back - post that they did a nice job and you're happy. Then ride it and leave the issue alone.

If there are any bumps along the way, handle them FIRST with ABG in both the spirit and letter of your agreement. Don't make this public again unless ABG violates their side first. That's the deal and your best course to getting what you want. Just my opinion, but don't scratch the wound once it has started to heal.


I suggest, for Pete's benefit, we leave this topic be until Pete reports back that he is satified. The deal is made, ABG is doing their part, there is nothing more to vent about.


----------



## CougarTrek

I don't think it's "clear" in any way shape or form that ABG has agreed to fix the bike completely for free.

My very first initial reaction to that wording (before the 2-3 pages analyzing it) was that ABG was going to make up a figure for their costs and charge Pete that much, but that they were not going to put the profit overhead they normally would on the bill.

Yes, they could be offering him a free repair, but no, it's not obvious at all. That is not the typical way that phrase is used, at least not in the US in my experience. At this point only Pete knows if they've clarified it; I hope for his sake they have, or that he makes them before signing anything.


----------



## froze

InfoPete will need to do this ASAP because he only has 5 days from when he got the notice. So if he e-mails or sends a letter they will then have to respond and if they take too long the 5 days will be up then he's screwed again. Hopefully they provided a phone number.

If they repair the bike and come up with some stupid amount like $3,000 instead of $300 then AGB is going to look like complete and utter idiots and con artists, I'm not sure if they want to look that way, they've done enough damage to their reputation. So personally I don't think they will play that game.


----------



## infopete

I've told the man from ABG to make sure the terms are not silly as life is too short and I am too old to care.

I won't be accepting anything unless I'm happy with it.

If the terms are not to my liking I will get them to send it back and I'll pay for the repair..... and plague ABG until I die 

Oh and maybe after that too


----------



## froze

Fanatical? You sometimes have to be fanatical to get something done and done right and fairly. The old saying is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. There was even a short poem for that saying entitled: "The Kicker" by Josh Billings: "I hate to be a kicker, I always long for peace, But the wheel that does the squeaking Is the one that gets the grease." A kicker was a complainer in old English. 

About 9 years ago I bought a $580 self propelled Honda Lawn mower on sale at a dealer for $420 and it came with a 2 year warranty. 13 months went by and the transmission failed so I took it for warranty repair, which they did no problem. 3 weeks after I got it back it broke the trans again, again they fixed it. This went on for 13 or 14 times breaking about every 3 weeks on average. I started my complaining with dealer who then complained to the Honda rep to no avail. So I proceeded to complain directly to the company, one of the service operators even went so far as to say I bought a low price lawn mower what did I expect! I told her $580 is not cheap, if I wanted a cheap Walmart type of lawn mower I would have paid $100 and be happier then I was with theirs! I called and called at least 40 times and sent about 15 letters to various heads of Honda. Tried to get it replaced under the lemon law (this was in California). Around about the 10th time it broke and the mowers warranty was about to run out I complained and got the offer of a lifetime repair! A lifetime repair I told one of the managers at Honda...are you kidding me? I have to take my mower in for repair every 3 weeks and then not be able to mow my lawn for 2 weeks? I even told one of the department heads that the cost of the part was $250 plus labor, for god's sakes man you could have bought a riding mower for what all the repairs has cost Honda! Finally on the last call they offered me a new mower, but even then they weaseled me by only wanting to give me a $420 valued lawn mower which was 2 steps below mine because I bought it on sale, Huh? I read the warranty provisions where it said that if they decide to replace the lawn mower that they would replace it with the same model or upgrade to a better model if the original model was no longer available. They denied that aspect of the warranty, so I told them to send me a check for $420 instead and I will buy a different brand of mower, So they sent me a check and I bought a Toro Super Recycler self propelled which has been great after 7 years. I took a loss but by that time to argue for months for $130 dollars wasn't worth it to me.

The other positive note on that Honda train wreck, the dealer due to all the frustration and having to pay for the labor themselves, and spending maybe as much time as I did trying to get it resolved, canceled being a dealer with Honda. So I bought the Toro through them for all the hard work they did when they became a Toro dealership after cancelling Honda.

I vowed I would never buy a Honda product as long as I live, and I do tell people about that experience...now I told you all.


----------



## ciclisto

will this go away now?


----------



## KenS

ciclisto said:


> will this go away now?


No, this will not go away. 

The tale thus far seems to be honest guy seeking what he was promised vs. conniving legalistic corporation trying to save some money. People are interested in how the tale will end.

ABG should be concerned about the story hitting the major media. Little guys vs big corporation -- it didn't work out so well for Toyota from a PR viewpoint.

I bought a Sierra Designs 60/40 parka that came with a lifetime warranty. After 5 or so years, the fabric began to deteriorate around the snaps. I sent it back to be repaired. The company cut out the shell around the snaps and replaced the shell fabric plus snaps. They didn't charge me a cent. I was working in a backpacking store at the time and I showed my parka to every potential customer -- saying "SD has a lifetime warranty and here is what they did for me." The $10 (back then) that they put into honoring my warranty paid off in many sales at full retail.

Hey, ABG is that "60 Minutes" on the phone


----------



## HigherGround

CougarTrek said:


> I don't think it's "clear" in any way shape or form that ABG has agreed to fix the bike completely for free.
> 
> My very first initial reaction to that wording (before the 2-3 pages analyzing it) was that ABG was going to make up a figure for their costs and charge Pete that much, but that they were not going to put the profit overhead they normally would on the bill.
> 
> Yes, they could be offering him a free repair, but no, it's not obvious at all. That is not the typical way that phrase is used, at least not in the US in my experience. At this point only Pete knows if they've clarified it; I hope for his sake they have, or that he makes them before signing anything.


Agreed.


----------



## ciclisto

you must be a liberal, excuse me"progressive" wanting to stick it to the man... the guy broke his bike big deal get it fixed...60 minutes really, and Obama is all about hope...wow


----------



## robdamanii

ciclisto said:


> you must be a liberal, excuse me"progressive" wanting to stick it to the man... the guy broke his bike big deal get it fixed...60 minutes really, and Obama is all about hope...wow


Take it to PO, neo-con moreon.


----------



## PlatyPius

ABG has a BBB rating of "F"....

http://www.bbb.org/chattanooga/busi...american-bicycle-group-in-ooltewah-tn-6008451


----------



## BetweenRides

ciclisto said:


> will this go away now?


I hope it never goes away. You certainly don't have to read the post if you don't want to. 

Pete:

I just hope this all works out to your satisfaction. I agree it would probably be better for you to just stay quiet until it's resolved, or at least until you have review the 'terms'. My two cents on the whole shebang, sorry if it is a bit long:

I own a Merlin Cyrene which I purchased over 6 years ago. As of yesterday, I have ridden it 24,580 miles - those have been good times on a bike I really love. The Cyrene was a replacement for a Lemond Carbon Maillot Jaune which I crashed and broke myself. Trek was wonderful to deal with during the time I had the bike, which had 26,722 miles on it when I retired it. The MJ had a lifetime warranty and I had 2 minor warranty claims on it in 8 years - Trek never questioned me or my LBS on the claims. Even on the broken frame, they offered me a great crash replacement - a Lemond steel frame with carbon fork and Project 1 paint job of my choosing for $150. I considered the offer as more than fair and held them up as a company I would do business with again in the future and recommend to friends and acquaintances. As a result, I have always gone out of my way to speak well of Trek, even though their new bikes have the nefarious 'Limited Lifetime Warranty' statement instead of the old 'Lifetime Warranty'. I still have the steel Lemond as one of my backup road bikes.

I chose the Merlin because I had always wanted to try a Ti frame, the Cyrene is a beautiful work of art to me, they had a great reputation in 2004 and because it had a Lifetime Warranty. I expected to own it for the rest of my life - the parts on it might not last, but the frame would. Besides, ABG was a great company with quality products that they stood behind. I paid a lot for it and I know Pete paid a lot for his Cielo, and I am as attached to it has Pete is to his.

This affair and others I have read about recently lead me to question the value of the Lifetime Warranty I was promised 6 and a half years ago. Bottom line, I won't do business with a company that doesn't stand behind their products or treat customers right. I have several Garmin products and will continue to buy from them based on their great customer service. Apple has also been great to deal with; on the flip side I will never buy another MS product because they have failed miserably at customer service in my experience. I will reserve final judgment on ABG because I have not had a personal experience to base it on, but I will probably leave them off my buy list in the future because of how they have handled this whole fiasco.

ABG is the big loser in this. Their reputation has suffered in the court of public opinion. I only hope you end up being the winner, Pete. :thumbsup:


----------



## ciclisto

actually i voted for the more-on... moron???pitty your education...


----------



## froze

Any warranty, whether lifetime or limited, is only as good as the company. I have never heard any complaints about Trek's handling of warranty issues, not saying there hasn't been just haven't heard of any. One can only conclude that Trek handles their warranty issues better then some other companies like AGB just to mention one.


----------



## FatTireFred

ciclisto said:


> actually i voted for the more-on... moron???pitty your education...



lol... oh, and "pitty"??? lolol


----------



## froze

I don't understand why some members get their panties all bunched up about spelling in an informal setting with an emphasis on content not spelling. G I hop I spilled everthang rat.


----------



## robdamanii

ciclisto said:


> actually i voted for the more-on... moron???pitty your education...


Holy crap, you completely missed the point...


----------



## roshea

Bump - any news on their "conditions"?


----------



## infopete

roshea said:


> Bump - any news on their "conditions"?


Sorry, I was keeping my head down.

I received news last night that my Merlin Cielo has been repaired. 

I have signed the agreement but it looks like their spam filter has blocked it. Once they have my signed agreement they will send my Merlin back.

Looks good so far


----------



## kiwisimon

wim said:


> Keep in mind that infopete is bearing the ill effects of this mess, not the peanut gallery.


400 posts I think the peanut gallery is paying a price as well.


----------



## froze

infopete said:


> Sorry, I was keeping my head down.
> 
> I received news last night that my Merlin Cielo has been repaired.
> 
> I have signed the agreement but it looks like their spam filter has blocked it. Once they have my signed agreement they will send my Merlin back.
> 
> Looks good so far


Don't you just love spam? Lovely Spaaam! Wonderful Spaaam!
Lovely Spaaam! Wonderful Spam.

Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.
Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.
Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.
Spa-a-a-a-a-a-a-am.

Lovely Spaaam! (Lovely Spam!)
Lovely Spaaam! (Lovely Spam!)
Lovely Spaaam!

Spaaam, Spaaam, Spaaam, Spaaaaaam!


----------



## Jetmugg

They probably put your ISP address on their corporate Black List to prevent any more emails from you.

SM.


----------



## froze

Jetmugg said:


> They probably put your ISP address on their corporate Black List to prevent any more emails from you.
> 
> SM.


That way his 5 days will expire and they can refuse to warranty the bike under the conditions they stated... that's smart, real smart. That's why I told InfoPete to also send a letter by next day air which I doubt he did. The games corporations play.

If AGB plays that game the only recourse InfoPete will have is to keep a record he can print out of when he sent those response e-mails, but again another drawn out battle.


----------



## giantdefy2

Just create a new email address


----------



## infopete

giantdefy2 said:


> Just create a new email address


I'm dealing with a very reasonable and pleasant guy at ABG and I am hopeful we will sort the agreement out on Monday. Once this is done they will ship my Merlin back.


----------



## ClarkinHawaii

So if I understand you correctly, they have fixed your frame before you know the terms? Have they told you how much it's going to cost?


----------



## infopete

ClarkinHawaii said:


> So if I understand you correctly, they have fixed your frame before you know the terms? Have they told you how much it's going to cost?


I know the terms but I have agreed that they are confidential however, I can say, the terms are ok and not bad at all.

The cost will be zero


----------



## Fireform

I've just taken the time to click through this thread. Wow. IMO that is plainly a failed weld. ABG provided no plausible evidence to support their claim of an "impact theory", and their photo of the "bent" hanger is bogus--the ruler is not flush against the hanger anywhere. 

ABG may, and I think should, learn pronto the merciless rule of commerce in a competitive marketplace: the customer is always right. That is why companies like LL Bean and Sierra Designs and Leupold optics have the love and devotion of their customers come hell or high water, good economy or bad. Their warranties mean you will be happy with their products every single time or they will make it right. Not "we have your cash and good luck to you." 

To spend that kind of money on a top of the line product and then get jerked around when it fails is completely unacceptable in this day and age. To accuse the OP of "bullying" because the online community is outraged over how they've jerked him around puts the last nail in the coffin, IMO. I wouldn't buy a t-shirt from any ABG company after reading this, and they're welcome to sue me over it.


----------



## BetweenRides

infopete said:


> I'm dealing with a very reasonable and pleasant guy at ABG and I am hopeful we will sort the agreement out on Monday. Once this is done they will ship my Merlin back.


That's great news, Pete. Looking forward to your first ride report. :thumbsup:


----------



## andresmuro

infopete said:


> I know the terms but I have agreed that they are confidential however, I can say, the terms are ok and not bad at all.
> 
> The cost will be zero


Congrats!

Its the least you deserved. Enjoy your bike and I am glad that you fought for your rights to have the product fixed. Hopefully, this will make ABG be more considerable of others with legit claims. 

A few favorable posts in this forum about ABG standing by their customers will restore some of the faith in Merlin.


----------



## froze

giantdefy2 said:


> Just create a new email address


New email address won't work "IF" they are tracking his IP address. He would have to reset his IP address and generally that will create a new one, or call his cable company and have them reset it.


----------



## infopete

froze said:


> New email address won't work "IF" they are tracking his IP address. He would have to reset his IP address and generally that will create a new one, or call his cable company and have them reset it.


I am a computer specialist, changing my IP address is only a few clicks. And as for email addresses I have a few.

I'm sure though the one I have been using will work. 

I'll use Skype to telephone on Monday. It's very useful that Skype allows dialing 800 numbers from the UK.


----------



## Fitzm

infopete said:


> I am a computer specialist, changing my IP address is only a few clicks. And as for email addresses I have a few.
> 
> I'm sure though the one I have been using will work.
> 
> I'll use Skype to telephone on Monday. It's very useful that Skype allows dialing 800 numbers from the UK.


Pete, like many others I've been following with interest. My I congratulate your resilience and wish you luck when your frames returns.

And like you I work in IT but sometimes you have to look back to move forward. Can you send them a fax?


----------



## Bacana

I can't imagine a company would go to the trouble of blocking an IP address, or even filtering his emails to trash, for that matter.

It appears to me that ABG genuinely wants to resolve this (now).


----------



## froze

Bacana said:


> I can't imagine a company would go to the trouble of blocking an IP address, or even filtering his emails to trash, for that matter.
> 
> It appears to me that ABG genuinely wants to resolve this (now).


I can't imagine they would cause or want any more trouble...but stranger things have happened. But I think AGB knows that Road Bike Review forums are widely read and the bad rap they were getting here was something they wanted to stop, plus I think Dan Empfield that I communicated with had some sort of an investment in getting the issue resolved.


----------



## Fireform

Well, if they've done a quality repair at no charge, its a win. However, it's no more than what they should have done to begin with, before all the jerking around.


----------



## giantdefy2

froze said:


> New email address won't work "IF" they are tracking his IP address. He would have to reset his IP address and generally that will create a new one, or call his cable company and have them reset it.


I work IT also, but Im more of a hardware guy. From what I understand, its possible to block an IP, but the issue would be, you would have to block a whole group of IPs. Plus, doesnt it only see the IP of the router from where he emailed it from. So if he emails it from a different location or uses his mobile phone to email, it should show a different IP. So, just curious how you guys block individual IP addresses preventing a specific email address from passing a firewall, I just cant figure out how it could be possible. Id like to know how you guys do it.


----------



## froze

giantdefy2 said:


> I work IT also, but Im more of a hardware guy. From what I understand, its possible to block an IP, but the issue would be, you would have to block a whole group of IPs. Plus, doesnt it only see the IP of the router from where he emailed it from. So if he emails it from a different location or uses his mobile phone to email, it should show a different IP. So, just curious how you guys block individual IP addresses preventing a specific email address from passing a firewall, I just cant figure out how it could be possible. Id like to know how you guys do it.


If the router is a cable or Verizon type the company can change the IP or if you all are IT guys you can go directly inside the router and change it yourself. I'm not an IT guy, but I know my IP address changed when I went from Cox cable to Verizon and and I know Verizon said if I ever needed to change the IT I could just call them and they would do it for free.


----------



## giantdefy2

froze said:


> If the router is a cable or Verizon type the company can change the IP or if you all are IT guys you can go directly inside the router and change it yourself. I'm not an IT guy, but I know my IP address changed when I went from Cox cable to Verizon and and I know Verizon said if I ever needed to change the IT I could just call them and they would do it for free.


Yeah, you threw me off, coz I know you cant block someones email by cutting off a certain IP, which you would have to cut off a group of IPs to shut out one, then you have issues blocking others out. Changing an IP is easy with Release and Renew commands on the router, no need to call the service provider not unless they are using static IPs. So, to make a long story short, the only smart way for ABG to block him is through putting his email address in the Spam folder. The OP just needs to create a new email address to get his agreement back to ABG on time.


----------



## froze

giantdefy2 said:


> Yeah, you threw me off, coz I know you cant block someones email by cutting off a certain IP, which you would have to cut off a group of IPs to shut out one, then you have issues blocking others out. Changing an IP is easy with Release and Renew commands on the router, no need to call the service provider not unless they are using static IPs. So, to make a long story short, the only smart way for ABG to block him is through putting his email address in the Spam folder. The OP just needs to create a new email address to get his agreement back to ABG on time.


I know a forum such as this can block your particular IP address, not a block of them, so you can't re-register under another handle, thus you have to change your IP address then go back in under another handle. So assuming a forum such as this can do that then I assumed any one with that type of technology can block anyone's IP address.

My router I had with Comcast I could not release and renew, I tried to do that and it didn't work, it wasn't till I went with Verizon that I was able to get a new IP...but not being very computer literate I may not known how to it the right way from what I was told.


----------



## dracula

infopete said:


> I know the terms but I have agreed that they are confidential however, I can say, the terms are ok and not bad at all.
> 
> The cost will be zero


Did they at least - on top of the free repair - explain to you why they still think the first warranty claim is void based on their research clashing with your "no crash report".?

It reminds me on a man who is chain-smoker going to a doctor and finding out he has got lung-cancer. However, the doctor denies his request to explain to him why he the doctor thinks his lung-cancer is not related to his smoking habit.

Needless to mention I will never for the hell out of my life buy anything from them (by the way: I do boycott the clowns from Specialized and stick to my guns).


----------



## Spanky_88007

ciclisto said:


> actually i voted for the more-on... moron???pitty your education...


Rule 4) the terms "imbasil," "*moreon*," and "asshat" and the phrases "your a idiot" and "retarded ewok" (*with those spellings*) are ritual insults, and we all agree they are meaningless. Feel free to use them ritually.

Oh, wait, wrong forum.


----------



## froze

dracula said:


> Needless to mention I will never for the hell out of my life buy anything from them (by the way: I do boycott the clowns from Specialized and stick to my guns).


Curiosity is killing the cat...err me. What did Specialized do to you, do tell.


----------



## dracula

froze said:


> Curiosity is killing the cat...err me. What did Specialized do to you, do tell.


I bought a pair of those Roubaix 23/25mm tyres. The tyres came straight off a brand new Specialized road bike and been sold through ebay.

Specialized has the policy that any warranty turns void on products bought through the internet. Of course is this policy a joke and would not hold in court.

However, the front tyre developed a bulge after the first ride. I contacted Specialized UK and offered them to send it in for further inspection. I thought they must be interested in to leaern from their mistakes. However, the idiots from the customer service insisted the tyres are faked without asking me for a serial number or any photos that would proof their point. They are not very clever because if the tyres were really faked they would have long asked me for the ebay transaction number so as to stop the seller on ebay. 

I also got the feeling Specialized does not really know who manufactures their tyres in China. They then claimed I am the first person who complains about a bulge or failure on their tyres. Of course did the rear tyre develop the same bulge a couple of rides later.

I was not so upset about the fact that they refused to honor the warranty. What really upset me was the fact they were not interested in to find out what happend to their own tyres. After all this could have been a fatal safety issue for me and for other rides who still buy the **** crap from Specialized.

By the way fatbirds.co.uk is on my blacklist as well. I colleague orderd a pair of wheels from them. It turned out they made a mistake and just listed the price for the rear wheel. My colleague later was asked to pay the remaining difference for the front wheel. He then went on and insisted it was their fault. Long story short: they wrote to him if he is further writing or phoning to them they will report him to the police. He then filed a complaint with the Fair Trading Association (of course did the FTA never come back to him).
If it were me I as a customer wouldn't have insisted on the wrong listed price for the wheel-set. However, it was ill judged from fatbirds to threat my colleague with the police. We all here have a PhD and I do not think my colleague speaks like a chap from the council estate while he ringed up fatbirds.


----------



## rx-79g

dracula said:


> I bought a pair of those Roubaix 23/25mm tyres. The tyres came straight off a brand new Specialized road bike and been sold through ebay.
> 
> Specialized has the policy that any warranty turns void on products bought through the internet. Of course is this policy a joke and would not hold in court.
> 
> However, the front tyre developed a bulge after the first ride. I contacted Specialized UK and offered them to send it in for further inspection. I thought they must be interested in to leaern from their mistakes. However, the idiots from the customer service insisted the tyres are faked without asking me for a serial number or any photos that would proof their point. They are not very clever because if the tyres were really faked they would have long asked me for the ebay transaction number so as to stop the seller on ebay.
> 
> I also got the feeling Specialized does not really know who manufactures their tyres in China. They then claimed I am the first person who complains about a bulge or failure on their tyres. Of course did the rear tyre develop the same bulge a couple of rides later.
> 
> I was not so upset about the fact that they refused to honor the warranty. What really upset me was the fact they were not interested in to find out what happend to their own tyres. After all this could have been a fatal safety issue for me and for other rides who still buy the **** crap from Specialized.
> 
> By the way fatbirds.co.uk is on my blacklist as well. I colleague orderd a pair of wheels from them. It turned out they made a mistake and just listed the price for the rear wheel. My colleague later was asked to pay the remaining difference for the front wheel. He then went on and insisted it was their fault. Long story short: they wrote to him if he is further writing or phoning to them they will report him to the police. He then filed a complaint with the Fair Trading Association (of course did the FTA never come back to him).
> If it were me I as a customer wouldn't have insisted on the wrong listed price for the wheel-set. However, it was ill judged from fatbirds to threat my colleague with the police. We all here have a PhD and I do not think my colleague speaks like a chap from the council estate while he ringed up fatbirds.


This is pure idocy, and BS. Of course it would hold up in court - your tires were not bought in accordance with the written warranty, what sort of stupid legal system would say that a warranty (which is not something that is even necessary to offer) has to work the way you think it should, rather than the way it is written?

I think Specialized (and anyone else who sells anything) is lucky to be rid of a non-customer like yourself.


----------



## dracula

rx-79g said:


> This is pure idocy, and BS. Of course it would hold up in court - your tires were not bought in accordance with the written warranty, what sort of stupid legal system would say that a warranty (which is not something that is even necessary to offer) has to work the way you think it should, rather than the way it is written?
> 
> I think Specialized (and anyone else who sells anything) is lucky to be rid of a non-customer like yourself.


[I do not know what a non-customer is to be honest.]

Firstly, if you wanna buy Specialized crap please do so. If you crash next time with Specialized tyres crap please do so. Maybe the latter constitutes a "customer".

Secondly, warranties are tales. It is no different than all the small prints when you tick a box while installing software: they would not hold in court. Next time put up a traffic sign in front of your house and ask the authorities what they think about the sign.

Thirdly, I clearly stated I was not after warranty. However, the idiots from Specialized made no attempt to find out why their crap tyres developed a bulge.


----------



## rx-79g

dracula said:


> [I do not know what a non-customer is to be honest.]
> 
> Firstly, if you wanna buy Specialized crap please do so. If you crash next time with Specialized tyres crap please do so. Maybe the latter constitutes a "customer".
> 
> Secondly, warranties are tales. It is no different than all the small prints when you tick a box while installing software: they would not hold in court. Next time put up a traffic sign in front of your house and ask the authorities what they think about the sign.
> 
> Thirdly, I clearly stated I was not after warranty. However, the idiots from Specialized made no attempt to find out why their crap tyres developed a bulge.


Look,tires don't have "serial numbers", Specialized probably does have an enormous problem with fake tires sold as "take offs" and you don't know anything about the legal system.

You bought into some jokers scam tires, and now you're peeved because Specialized doesn't want to waste their time and money investigating the cause of flat in a knock-off provided by someone who didn't use their dealers to buy stuff. Awesome. 

Your posts are the reason that Infopete's claim seem so convincing - for every one like his there are 100 from jokers like you that think bike companies owe them something. But you didn't buy anything from Specialized, and now you're wanking about it.

Specialized has always been an importer of bike components. They know EXACTLY where everything comes from. Your naivete about the this decent company, warranties and the chances of getting a $20 black market tire turned into a legal issue are just stunning.

To be perfectly clear, I don't even like Specialized products - I just think your story is so ridiculous that I can't help having my sensibilities offended. Wake up.


----------



## dracula

rx-79g said:


> Look,tires don't have "serial numbers", Specialized probably does have an enormous problem with fake tires sold as "take offs" and you don't know anything about the legal system.
> 
> You bought into some jokers scam tires, and now you're peeved because Specialized doesn't want to waste their time and money investigating the cause of flat in a knock-off provided by someone who didn't use their dealers to buy stuff. Awesome.
> 
> Your posts are the reason that Infopete's claim seem so convincing - for every one like his there are 100 from jokers like you that think bike companies owe them something. But you didn't buy anything from Specialized, and now you're wanking about it.
> 
> Specialized has always been an importer of bike components. They know EXACTLY where everything comes from. Your naivete about the this decent company, warranties and the chances of getting a $20 black market tire turned into a legal issue are just stunning.
> 
> To be perfectly clear, I don't even like Specialized products - I just think your story is so ridiculous that I can't help having my sensibilities offended. Wake up.


Sorry I do not have time (like you) to explain it again and again: the tyres came off from a stock genuine Specialized road bicycle. I have no reason not to believe the tryes are not genuine.

But as clever as you seem to be: you know better than me about the ebay deal. I wouldn't be surprised you also know the seller and the ebay transaction number. Chances are high you even know the guy in China who faked the tyres.

So I am gonna stop reading your junk now. Are you working for the Specialized customer service? Please improve your language.


----------



## joker

I had a Specialized toupe saddle replaced no problems at all ,it was bought from an internet site ,I couldn't even remember who i'd bought it from ,maybe it was the charm from a chap from a council estate that did it


----------



## rx-79g

joker said:


> I had a Specialized toupe saddle replaced no problems at all ,it was bought from an internet site ,I couldn't even remember who i'd bought it from ,maybe it was the charm from a chap from a council estate that did it


Didn't even need a serial number, eh?


----------



## dracula

joker said:


> I had a Specialized toupe saddle replaced no problems at all ,it was bought from an internet site ,I couldn't even remember who i'd bought it from ,maybe it was the charm from a chap from a council estate that did it


Who knows (as a person with a strong foreign accent I come - more than often - across as someone from a council estate).

The thing is I was really not so much after warranty as much as I would have expected them to investigate the cause of the effect. The rear tyre also developed the same bulge (which could have cost me my life in a fast descent; maybe it is this what I deserve as a non-customer).

The tyres came from a brand new Specialized Roubaix (as far as I remember). It was a woman who replaced the tryes for narrower ones (the 23/25 are more like 27mm tyres).


----------



## cda 455

dracula said:


> Sorry I do not have time (like you) to explain it again and again: the tyres came off from a stock genuine Specialized road bicycle._* I have no reason not to believe the tryes are not genuine.*_
> 
> But as clever as you seem to be: you know better than me about the ebay deal. I wouldn't be surprised you also know the seller and the ebay transaction number. Chances are high you even know the guy in China who faked the tyres.
> 
> So I am gonna stop reading your junk now. Are you working for the Specialized customer service? Please improve your language.


Check; And mate  .


You don't know any more than rx-79g does about the tires you bought on eBay :lol: !

Companies aren't responsible for second or third party warranties. Only original ownership warranties.


----------



## rx-79g

dracula said:


> The tyres came from a brand new Specialized Roubaix (as far as I remember). It was a woman who replaced the tryes for narrower ones (the 23/25 are more like 27mm tyres).


Oh? Were you and this "woman" very close? Same bridge club?


----------



## dracula

cda 455 said:


> Check; And mate  .
> 
> 
> You don't know any more than rx-79g does about the tires you bought on eBay :lol: !
> 
> Companies aren't responsible for second or third party warranties. Only original ownership warranties.


Of course they are genuine (I offered Specilaized to send it to them on my own expenses). I would agree with you if the seller sits somewhere in China.

Lets now assume for a moment the tyres are not genuine and faked. So Specilaized is happy that there is someone on ebay selling faked tyres.

Come on now, if Specialized had any reason to believe the tyres are faked they would have asked me for the transaction number to report it to ebay that faked goods are being sold. The more so since the seller sits in Europe. Of course did they not ask me for the transaction number because also Specilaized had no reason not to blieve into my story: bought off ebay and tyres came from a brand new stock Specialized. 

Either way Specilaized knows about all the "bulging" problems related to their tyres or they do not care a **** if their tyres blow-out.


----------



## GirchyGirchy

dracula said:


> Of course they are genuine (I offered Specilaized to send it to them on my own expenses). I would agree with you if the seller sits somewhere in China.


Lol, this is all too funny.


----------



## penn_rider

Where in the world did you get your PHD? Reasoning plays a big part in IQ and I highly doubt that you have put a lot of this to use during your train wreck.

This has totally derailed Pete's thread and it should be locked...


----------



## stevesbike

rx-79g said:


> This is pure idocy, and BS. Of course it would hold up in court - your tires were not bought in accordance with the written warranty, what sort of stupid legal system would say that a warranty (which is not something that is even necessary to offer) has to work the way you think it should, rather than the way it is written?
> 
> I think Specialized (and anyone else who sells anything) is lucky to be rid of a non-customer like yourself.


Actually, he is generally correct about the warranty issue. All goods are covered by an implied warranty of merchantability and fitness. There need be no express warranty at all - this is basic consumer protection. Of course, if the item is counterfeit, then that's a different story...


----------



## dracula

penn_rider said:


> Where in the world did you get your PHD? Reasoning plays a big part in IQ and I highly doubt that you have put a lot of this to use during your train wreck.
> 
> This has totally derailed Pete's thread and it should be locked...


That was exactly the reason why Pete had such problems in the first instance: as long as there are people like you who believe everything what comes out from a customer support department nothing will change in the long run. 

Have you ever considered they granted me a Phd because I can make a judged opinion (they even pay me money for doing research at high ranked university in physics). What will you think of me if I told you the Rolex one can buy on the beach is 100% faked? Would you have expected me to believe it is not faked? You must really think I am stupid or what?


----------



## penn_rider

Then you obviously knew that the tires were fake. Someone with your great intellect should have also figured out that you are not the first to contact Specialized about knockoff merchandise and that they more than likely have heard every kind of excuse, complaint and claim about said products. I am also sure that you have deduced that Specialized probably has almost every knockoff vendor on a list and is doing all they can to stop the forgery... 

Why in the world would hey then want your fake tire(s) to examine?

You messed up and bought knockoff merchandise ad a now crying to the Internet/Specialized... Grow up... 

P.S. - Please do not buy your Rolex on the beach an then cry to rolexforums.com when it tarnishes...


----------



## dracula

penn_rider said:


> Then you obviously knew that the tires were fake. Someone with your great intellect should have also figured out that you are not the first to contact Specialized about knockoff merchandise and that they more than likely have heard every kind of excuse, complaint and claim about said products. I am also sure that you have deduced that Specialized probably has almost every knockoff vendor on a list and is doing all they can to stop the forgery...
> 
> Why in the world would hey then want your fake tire(s) to examine?
> 
> You messed up and bough knockoff merchandise ad a now crying to the Internet/Specialized... Grow up...
> 
> P.S. - Please do not buy your Rolex on the beach an then cry to rolexforums.com when it tarnishes...


Sorry I give in. They are not faked. How can you know?

What comes next: I tell you my name and you gonna reply: "This is not your name". I show you my passport and you without further ado: "No this is not your passport and the passport is surely faked".

Sorry I give in. Your imagination blows me off: you are talking about a deal using "knockoff merchandise" without the slightest idea if your speculation has anything to do with reality.

If I wanna win the lottery I will ask you as it seems you could make a fortune as a "fortune teller". 

Holly Jesus, penn_rider you are not real are you?


----------



## dracula

penn_rider said:


> Then you obviously knew that the tires were fake. Someone with your great intellect should have also figured out that you are not the first to contact Specialized about knockoff merchandise and that they more than likely have heard every kind of excuse, complaint and claim about said products. I am also sure that you have deduced that Specialized probably has almost every knockoff vendor on a list and is doing all they can to stop the forgery...
> 
> Why in the world would hey then want your fake tire(s) to examine?
> 
> You messed up and bought knockoff merchandise ad a now crying to the Internet/Specialized... Grow up...
> 
> P.S. - Please do not buy your Rolex on the beach an then cry to rolexforums.com when it tarnishes...


As add on to my earlier and last post:

Please before you complain about my PhD: A) Read the thread again B) Improve your reading skills, because: Firstly, They never asked me for the tyres to investigate (they acted like you and thought the tyres are faked a priori), Secondly: they never asked me for the ebay transaction number (they are again like you and know more than me since as it seems they didn't know who the seller on ebay was but it must have been crystal clear to them it is a seller selling faked goods). 

And now lets assume everything in the sales corner is faked a priori.


----------



## DaveT

Is dracula really really Andre Jute?


----------



## penn_rider

Add nothing Drac, this is not your thread to complain in. Start one of your own if you feel compelled to complain.. 

I am done with this one,,,


----------



## robdamanii

dracula said:


> As add on to my earlier and last post:
> 
> Please before you complain about my PhD: A) Read the thread again B) Improve your reading skills, because: Firstly, They never asked me for the tyres to investigate (they acted like you and thought the tyres are faked a priori), Secondly: they never asked me for the ebay transaction number (they are again like you and know more than me since as it seems they didn't know who the seller on ebay was but it must have been crystal clear to them it is a seller selling faked goods).
> 
> And now lets assume everything in the sales corner is faked a priori.


Frankly, why the hell would they care about your tires? You bought them second hand, so most likely any warranty is negated by the second hand private sale.

Now really, you're not pissed off at them because they didn't care to take your tires and "find the reason they blew up." You're pissed that they didn't warranty them and give you new tires. Your whole whining, poorly written diatribe smacks of sour grapes.

I'm no fan of Specialized products, but they are a pretty solid company to deal with when issues arise. Your petty pissing and moaning about their refusal to warranty a couple tires in a thread where a guy had a real issue with a high dollar frame is laughable.

Crawl back under your rock and do your research. Leave the human interaction to people who are good at it.


----------



## dracula

robdamanii said:


> Frankly, why the hell would they care about your tires? You bought them second hand, so most likely any warranty is negated by the second hand private sale.
> 
> Now really, you're not pissed off at them because they didn't care to take your tires and "find the reason they blew up." You're pissed that they didn't warranty them and give you new tires. Your whole whining, poorly written diatribe smacks of sour grapes.
> 
> I'm no fan of Specialized products, but they are a pretty solid company to deal with when issues arise. Your petty pissing and moaning about their refusal to warranty a couple tires in a thread where a guy had a real issue with a high dollar frame is laughable.
> 
> Crawl back under your rock and do your research. Leave the human interaction to people who are good at it.



Oh my God another funny fortune teller. You seem to be from a different university. And your contribution now was? 

I have been asked why I boycott Specialized. I gave an answer. After that a lot of people started to run a vendetta. Think again before you start accusing of others of improper interaction.

It is really no surprise why Pete had all the problems: prodigies like you and other idiots are the best example why the fuzzy customer service departments can do what they want. Congratulations.


----------



## DaveT

dracula said:


> Oh my God another funny fortune teller. You seem to be from a different university. And your contribution now was?
> 
> I have been asked why I boycott Specialized. I gave an answer. After that a lot of people started to run a vendetta. Think again before you start accusing of others of improper interaction.
> 
> It is really no surprise why Pete had all the problems: prodigies like you and other idiots are the best example why the fuzzy customer service departments can do what they want. Congratulations.


You my fine friend, are the fuzzy one. Keen logic and human kindness are not your strongest points. You seem bent on putting, to coin a phrase, another brick in the wall.


----------



## covenant

I say we cut our losses and just delete everyone who registered in 2010. :thumbsup:


----------



## DaveT

covenant said:


> I say we cut our losses and just delete everyone who registered in 2010. :thumbsup:


Well, maybe some who registered in 2010.


----------



## evs

*Guys, your hi jacking the thread*

start a new thread or move it off line. You guys are totally hi jacking this thread.


----------



## Bacana

I for one hope the sidetrack ends.

More to the point of the thread--I'm sure others had the same thought, but I thought perhaps the gag order was having its intended effect.


----------



## andresmuro

DaveT said:


> Is dracula really really Andre Jute?


Has he ever been here? :crazy: 

Please don't invoke him. :yikes:


----------



## DaveT

andresmuro said:


> Has he ever been here? :crazy:
> 
> Please don't invoke him. :yikes:


The similarity of the tone and tenor of both dracula's and Jute's posts are somewhat similar; what I feel is entirely correct and the rest of you are stuff on the bottom of my shoe.

BTW: Andres, your print hangs on my wall and has evoked many nice comments from my cycling friends!


----------



## T K

PhD? Was it on-line or Mexican college?
Dracula is sucking the life out of this thread.


----------



## robdamanii

dracula said:


> Oh my God another funny fortune teller. You seem to be from a different university. And your contribution now was?
> 
> I have been asked why I boycott Specialized. I gave an answer. After that a lot of people started to run a vendetta. Think again before you start accusing of others of improper interaction.
> 
> It is really no surprise why Pete had all the problems: prodigies like you and other idiots are the best example why the fuzzy customer service departments can do what they want. Congratulations.


And idiots like you with absolutely nobody but themselves to blame for their own mistakes try to pass it off on someone else. 

If you had a modicum of personal responsibility and/or integrity, you'd realize you should A) not buy crap online that you can't vouch for the history of and B) not complain when they ignore your warranty claim for something that's second hand and a wear item.

I'd not have warrantied them either, and I would have told you to pound sand.

As for improper interaction, you can hardly put together a coherent sentence and you're accusing US of creating customer service problems?

Go suck the life out of some other thread. This one actually served a very necessary purpose.


----------



## robdamanii

covenant said:


> I say we cut our losses and just delete everyone who registered in 2010. :thumbsup:


I'm behind ya. Let's get the n00b spray out and gas 'em.

Pete, any update on getting confirmation of your terms acceptance?


----------



## froze

dracula said:


> I bought a pair of those Roubaix 23/25mm tyres. The tyres came straight off a brand new Specialized road bike and been sold through ebay.
> 
> Specialized has the policy that any warranty turns void on products bought through the internet. Of course is this policy a joke and would not hold in court.
> 
> .


They, Specialized, says they won't honor their warranty of any product that is sold on the internet? Crap, they sell their own products through their own website on the internet, does that mean they won't even honor that? Anyway, Specialized makes good products but they do have strange policies, if someone is selling their product that is not an authorized dealer then there is no warranty or service, problem is Specialized sells their stuff to unauthorized dealers! Also Specialized has price fixed products, which means all authorized dealers sell their products for the same price no matter where you go. The tricky part is that Specialized sends their closeouts to the unauthorized dealers so that's where you get your best prices, just beware there is no warranty.

I like a lot of Specialized products, like their helmets, tires, ultralight Turbo tubes; it's too bad their so weird in how they handle customer relations.


----------



## PlatyPius

dracula said:


> Sorry I do not have time (like you) to explain it again and again: the tyres came off from a stock genuine Specialized road bicycle. *I have no reason not to believe the tryes are not genuine.*
> 
> But as clever as you seem to be: you know better than me about the ebay deal. I wouldn't be surprised you also know the seller and the ebay transaction number. Chances are high you even know the guy in China who faked the tyres.
> 
> So I am gonna stop reading your junk now. Are you working for the Specialized customer service? Please improve your language.


So....

If you have no reason NOT to believe that the tires are NOT genuine, does that mean that you KNOW the tires are fakes?

Psychic Vampires are cool.


----------



## Camilo

Guys quit feeding the dracula troll. He's gotta be toying with us because nobody's that naive or ignorant.


----------



## froze

I feel like my blood is being sucked right out of me.


----------



## infopete

It's just left Louisville should be with me by Friday.


----------



## rx-79g

infopete said:


> It's just left Louisville should be with me by Friday.


Congrats, Pete. I hope it gives you years of great service.


----------



## froze

The end is finally coming after a unnecessarily very long drawn out process. They should give you free jersey or something for the trouble...right they will.


----------



## cda 455

robdamanii said:


> Frankly, why the hell would they care about your tires? You bought them second hand, so most likely any warranty is negated by the second hand private sale.


Winner! Winner!

Also, as stated in post #438.


----------



## infopete

Oh nooooooo it's stuck in customs...... bean counters Eeeeeeek.


----------



## evs

*Is it coming or going?*

Has it been repaired and is being returned to you? Hoping for the best for you.....that is one fine looking ride.


----------



## infopete

evs said:


> Has it been repaired and is being returned to you? Hoping for the best for you.....that is one fine looking ride.


It's been repaired and it should be with me soon


----------



## evs

*Sweeeeet*

Im really glad for you. That is a great looking ride and I know how one can get attached to things like that besides the other obvious stuff discussed here. Will you be able to post pics of the repair or is that against the agreement? I'd like to see you riding away on it with a big smile just because of the fact that you're on your special ride.  That would be a great ending to the story.


----------



## FatTireFred

infopete said:


> It's been repaired and it should be with me soon




post pics of the repairs... let the peanut gallery judge


----------



## Dajianshan

Lets see the pics so we can lay this thread to rest. We need closure.


----------



## SlowMover

Welcome to the wonderful world of ABG. I owned 4 Mark Lynskey built Litespeed frames and had one issue in all those years with one of the very first Ultimate's to come off the line. Cracked at the down tube/bb shell weld, quick phone call to Lynskey's crew I sent the bike up for repair.....~5 days later I had a brand new Ultimate WITH the newer upgraded Kestrel EMS fork and a note saying how sorry they were for the inconvenience. This was on a frame with ~ 20K miles.

ABG is a joke now and apart from your thread I know 2 others who have had this exact same warranty experience. 

THIS is why I own a Kellogg made Merlin Extralight and a Lynskey Level 4. ABG will never see another dime of my money and I do everything I can to let people know who are shopping for bikes what a disaster they are messing with in ABG.


----------



## rx-79g

SlowMover said:


> Welcome to the wonderful world of ABG. I owned 4 Mark Lynskey built Litespeed frames and had one issue in all those years with one of the very first Ultimate's to come off the line. Cracked at the down tube/bb shell weld, quick phone call to Lynskey's crew I sent the bike up for repair.....~5 days later I had a brand new Ultimate WITH the newer upgraded Kestrel EMS fork and a note saying how sorry they were for the inconvenience. This was on a frame with ~ 20K miles.
> 
> ABG is a joke now and apart from your thread I know 2 others who have had this exact same warranty experience.
> 
> THIS is why I own a Kellogg made Merlin Extralight and a Lynskey Level 4. ABG will never see another dime of my money and I do everything I can to let people know who are shopping for bikes what a disaster they are messing with in ABG.


Kellogg didn't make the Merlin. Merlin made the Spectrums. Kellogg designed the geometry. Is your Merlin pre or post ABG buy out?


----------



## DaveT

rx-79g said:


> Kellogg didn't make the Merlin. Merlin made the Spectrums. Kellogg designed the geometry. Is your Merlin pre or post ABG buy out?


More than Tom just designing the geos, he dictates complete specifications, including butting specs of the tubing that Merlin was to supply. I had a Spectrum and the AutoCad drawing he sent me was overwhelming.


----------



## rx-79g

DaveT said:


> More than Tom just designing the geos, he dictates complete specifications, including butting specs of the tubing that Merlin was to supply. I had a Spectrum and the AutoCad drawing he sent me was overwhelming.


That's true of Spectrums, but not of the Merlins we're talking about. While the geo is undoubtedly Kellogg on the Merlin road bikes, my Extralight has a "Designed by Rob Vandermark" sticker on it. Not saying that some of Merlins may have been completely spec'd by TK, but many of them were not.


----------



## SlowMover

rx-79g said:


> Kellogg didn't make the Merlin. Merlin made the Spectrums. Kellogg designed the geometry. Is your Merlin pre or post ABG buy out?


Oh ok weird I thought it was Tom's design. I purchased mine well before the ABG debacle. Have you seen the Extralight that Rob Kish won on in '95? That's the exact model and decal set on mine, bought in the summer of 1994 though. I never associated Merlin with Gwyn and Gary, always thought of Tom since he was the brain power behind the geometry. And NO it's not for sale As they say...out of my cold, dead hands. I even have a pretty little decal on the non-drive seat stay with Tommy Boy's autograph on it. 
.


----------



## drejr1

InfoPete, you may have already contacted us and I just wasn't made aware of it, sorry if so. 

I would be happy to have my production manager take a look at some photos that you could provide, and then offer you a cost of repairs done here at the Lynskey plant. 

It wouldn't be free, but at least you'd know someone is available to do our best to repair a broken frame for you.

If you choose to do so, please provide detailed, clear digital photos to the email address below. We always like to help a fellow cyclist back on the road or trail.

Don Erwin
Sales Manager
[email protected]


----------



## Gimme Shoulder

drejr1 said:


> InfoPete, you may have already contacted us and I just wasn't made aware of it, sorry if so.
> 
> I would be happy to have my production manager take a look at some photos that you could provide, and then offer you a cost of repairs done here at the Lynskey plant.
> 
> It wouldn't be free, but at least you'd know someone is available to do our best to repair a broken frame for you.
> 
> If you choose to do so, please provide detailed, clear digital photos to the email address below. We always like to help a fellow cyclist back on the road or trail.
> 
> Don Erwin
> Sales Manager
> [email protected]


You're just a little later than fashionably late on this. You might want to read through the the last several days posts to this thread.


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## drejr1

Gimme Shoulder said:


> You're just a little later than fashionably late on this. You might want to read through the the last several days posts to this thread.


you're right, i am. doh!! i remembered this one about the time i hit send. we don't have the set up to be able to repair the bonded tubes. we are willing always though, to help with most other brand's full ti frame repairs.


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## infopete

drejr1 said:


> InfoPete, you may have already contacted us and I just wasn't made aware of it, sorry if so.
> 
> I would be happy to have my production manager take a look at some photos that you could provide, and then offer you a cost of repairs done here at the Lynskey plant.
> 
> It wouldn't be free, but at least you'd know someone is available to do our best to repair a broken frame for you.
> 
> If you choose to do so, please provide detailed, clear digital photos to the email address below. We always like to help a fellow cyclist back on the road or trail.
> 
> Don Erwin
> Sales Manager
> [email protected]



How odd, spooky even.

On the 21st December 2010, Don said he wasn't interested in fixing my Merlin Cielo in case they cooked the carbon.


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## infopete

Well...................... 

My Merlin Cielo arrived home this morning, fully repaired, well packaged and at no cost to me.

The new welds look very good and I'll post pictures in the next day or so.

I'm looking forward to getting it back on the road.

Thanks everyone.


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## drejr1

infopete said:


> How odd, spooky even.
> 
> On the 21st December 2010, Don said he wasn't interested in fixing my Merlin Cielo in case they cooked the carbon.


Did you get the frame replacement resolved with Merlin?? Glad to hear it worked out.


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## SilentAssassin

All this trouble over a bicycle. Come on now, titanium isn't gold, lol.


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## frdfandc

So what's the warranty on the repair? Or is this the the last of it?


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## robdamanii

SilentAssassin said:


> All this trouble over a bicycle. Come on now, titanium isn't gold, lol.


Maybe not to you, but to him it was.

And honestly, it was the principle of the thing: not getting screwed by a douchey company like ABG on a warranty issue that SHOULD have been resolved much more amicably, without having to round up the villagers with the torches and pitch forks.


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## evs

*Bravo, Come on now*

let's see those pics.  I was most interested in seeing if the rear wheel fit in to the rear wheel drop outs. CONGRATULATIONS hopefully not prematurely.





infopete said:


> Well......................
> 
> My Merlin Cielo arrived home this morning, fully repaired, well packaged and at no cost to me.
> 
> The new welds look very good and I'll post pictures in the next day or so.
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting it back on the road.
> 
> Thanks everyone.


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## DrD

We need closure - post the pics!!!!


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## FatTireFred

Spanky_88007 said:


> Rule 4) the terms "imbasil," "*moreon*," and "asshat" and the phrases "your a idiot" and "retarded ewok" (*with those spellings*) are ritual insults, and we all agree they are meaningless. Feel free to use them ritually.
> 
> Oh, wait, wrong forum.




"the first rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club"


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## froze

FatTireFred said:


> "the first rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club"


Fight? Who wants to fight? You want a piece of me? Do you feel lucky? well do you punk? My name is Froze; learn it well, for it's the chilling sound of your doom! They will say that I have shed innocent blood; what's blood for, if not for shedding? This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. When engaged in combat, the vanquishing of thine enemy can be the warrior's only concern. This is the first and cardinal rule of combat...suppress all human emotion and compassion. Can I join the fight club? I wonder now if I'll be banned for what I just said?


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## SilentAssassin

srracer said:


> Dude, if you work at ABG and you want to clear their name, you really shouldn't leave it at that..
> 
> Because otherwise, I still call BS on ABG and say that this is just to plant doubt in the minds of all the people reading these threads that Pete did something, when he probably did nothing wrong at all..
> 
> And seriously... ~$100 more than shipping to fix it and ABG would rather give away a new carbon frame that they'd have to ship anyways.. Again.. I call BS. No *successful* business owner would ever make that stupid of a tradeoff, pissing off their customer and ruining their image to hundreds (or thousands) of potential customers..


Fixing this frame will only add more liability to ABG if something goes wrong with the repairs, which is probably why they are electing not to fix it. But I'm guessing the document pete signs probably doesn't make ABG liable for anything, even if the repair is a botch job.

I myself would taken the litespeed carbon, that was pretty generous.


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## robdamanii

SilentAssassin said:


> Fixing this frame will only add more liability to ABG if something goes wrong with the repairs, which is probably why they are electing not to fix it. But I'm guessing the document pete signs probably doesn't make ABG liable for anything, even if the repair is a botch job.
> 
> I myself would taken the litespeed carbon, that was pretty generous.


It's also a piece of crap compared to the Merlin. It's also NOT what he wanted. The value of that Merlin is far greater than that hideous bastard they call a carbon bike.


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## T K

SilentAssassin said:


> I myself would taken the litespeed carbon, that was pretty generous.


Trading a $5k hand built frame for one that is a $1500 China cookie cutter POS, and is ugly, is generous?
Are you retarded?!!!


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## PlatyPius

T K said:


> Trading a $5k hand built frame for one that is a $1500 China cookie cutter POS, and is ugly, is generous?
> Are you retarded?!!!


Pssst..... he thinks all titanium frames are the same, and only moreons spend lots of money on one. So, I'm gonna have to go with "affirmative".


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## froze

SilentAssassin said:


> I myself would taken the litespeed carbon, that was pretty generous.


The litespeed carbon is nowhere near the looks, quality or price of the Cielo, so no it was not generous. And the CF frame and fork are made in Asia.


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## T K

PlatyPius said:


> Pssst..... he thinks all titanium frames are the same, and only moreons spend lots of money on one. So, I'm gonna have to go with "affirmative".


Thanks, I just sprayed Molson Canadian all over me keyboard!!!!


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## infopete

Pictures of my repaired Merlin Cielo.

I've done them as links as they are big pics.

Rear drop-outs

https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r1.png
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r2.png
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r3.png

Full Frame
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r4.png
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r5.png

And was there a crack after all?
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r6.png
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r7.png
https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r8.png


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## FatTireFred

500!

not bad... but not a top notch repair. you can see how the driveside d/o isn't quite aligned right w/ the seatstay. and you know someone is gonna comment about the blue in the ht-dt weld


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## wim

FatTireFred said:


> 500! and you know someone is gonna comment about the blue in the ht-dt weld


If someone wants to, could they start a new thread, please?


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## T K

Glad you got yer frame back! I'm thinking though, if it was me, I'd sell that thing and buy myself a new Lynskey. I just have a feeling that frame is going to give you more trouble down the road. Make this whole thing into a positive and ABG a distant memory.
That's just me. Enjoy what ever you do, you earned it!


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## froze

Great looking welds, but I see a bit of scorch TI, hopefully that hasn't weakened the metal and lead to more problems. But I know very little about welding TI and the effects of that.


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## froze

Great looking welds, but I see a bit of scorch TI, hopefully that hasn't weakened the metal and lead to more problems. But I know very little about welding TI and the effects of that.


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## rx-79g

FatTireFred said:


> 500!
> 
> not bad... but not a top notch repair. you can see how the driveside d/o isn't quite aligned right w/ the seatstay. and you know someone is gonna comment about the blue in the ht-dt weld


If you're referring to the angle between lower dropout and the bolt on seat stay piece, they are not going to line up except for the one particular frame size. That's an adjustable angle seat stay dropout and designed to work like that.



Generally, the slight discoloration on the welds are pretty localized. I think they'll be okay.


I am interested in the fact that there was indeed something wrong with the headtube. There must have been a whole lot of miscommunication going on throughout this incident.


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## covenant

rx-79g said:


> I am interested in the fact that there was indeed something wrong with the headtube. There must have been a whole lot of miscommunication going on throughout this incident.


And a whole lot more damage to the frame...Maybe ABG was right after all. :blush2:


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## infopete

covenant said:


> And a whole lot more damage to the frame...Maybe ABG was right after all. :blush2:


before the repair

https://www.polysym.com/merlin/m062.JPG

after the repair

https://www.polysym.com/merlin/r6.png

that's a huge amount of damage, don't you think?


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## Sebastionmerckx

The point is, you time and again said there was no damage to the headtube at all and provided pictures to show that. Now, we see that they indeed did make a repair to the headtube. It doesn't matter if it's a small repair, the point is there was more damage than you previously indicated. I never saw anything in your photos to indicate any headtube damage but the fact remains, they performed a repair.


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## wickedwheels

I would demand an explanation as to why the head tube was touched and why it looks so unclean.


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## froze

The head tube was damaged? This is new information INFOPETE you failed to tell us. I wonder why? I also wonder why there was nothing mentioned about the head tube in the letters from AGB? Did you, INFOPETE, pull a fast one on us? Dan Empfield never mentioned to me about the head tube either. Something is wrong somewhere.


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## rx-79g

froze said:


> The head tube was damaged? This is new information INFOPETE you failed to tell us. I wonder why? I also wonder why there was nothing mentioned about the head tube in the letters from AGB? Did you, INFOPETE, pull a fast one on us? Dan Empfield never mentioned to me about the head tube either. Something is wrong somewhere.


Read the thread before you get outraged. There's several references to it throughout the thread.


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## DrD

So looking at the weld bead on the head tube and comparing it to the before picture, I am not convinced they actually re-welded it - unless they managed to get the bead almost identical, and also re-welded the cable adjuster posts (they were clearly welded after the headtube was welded - and appear that way in both pictures)

Overall, the repair looks a-ok to me - I say build it back up and enjoy!


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## infopete

rx-79g said:


> Read the thread before you get outraged. There's several references to it throughout the thread.


Hi Froze, the pictures have been up for all to see for weeks, I've never noticed anything on the headtube before, have you?


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## tihsepa

infopete said:


> Hi Froze, the pictures have been up for all to see for weeks, I've never noticed anything on the headtube before, have you?


Remember, everyone is an Expert on the internet. Build up and enjoy that killer bike.


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## Ride-Fly

froze said:


> Fight? Who wants to fight? You want a piece of me? Do you feel lucky? well do you punk? My name is Froze; learn it well, for it's the chilling sound of your doom! They will say that I have shed innocent blood; what's blood for, if not for shedding? This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. When engaged in combat, the vanquishing of thine enemy can be the warrior's only concern. This is the first and cardinal rule of combat...suppress all human emotion and compassion. Can I join the fight club? I wonder now if I'll be banned for what I just said?


AWESOME! Where did you compile all that from? I know the Clint Eastwood part but the rest, I can't place. Still, I read it with voice of the "Old Spice" dude, you know..."look back to me, look at you, look at me...I'm on a horse" guy!! 

Anyways, GREAT job infopete! I too will never buy an ABG product. I have always wanted to pick up a used Merlin or Litespeed but now, I won't even look at them, not even the used ones.


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## frdfandc

infopete said:


> Hi Froze, the pictures have been up for all to see for weeks, I've never noticed anything on the headtube before, have you?




I personally can't see any damage or difference in the headtubes. But what do I know since I do the warranty processing for the LBS I work for.


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## rx-79g

Ride-Fly said:


> AWESOME! Where did you compile all that from? I know the Clint Eastwood part but the rest, I can't place. Still, I read it with voice of the "Old Spice" dude, you know..."look back to me, look at you, look at me...I'm on a horse" guy!!
> 
> Anyways, GREAT job infopete! I too will never buy an ABG product. I have always wanted to pick up a used Merlin or Litespeed but now, I won't even look at them, not even the used ones.


Well, buy an old one from the Lynskey or Massachusets eras of the two companies. But really, who cares about the activities of a company that made something nice, when you are buying it without a warranty?

If you don't want to advertise, take the stickers off.


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## froze

infopete said:


> Hi Froze, the pictures have been up for all to see for weeks, I've never noticed anything on the headtube before, have you?


I saw pics of the head tube and what appeared to be a mark that all I thought was a mark from a cable or smudge of dirt. In fact I thought you were just showing us the pics to show that the bike hadn't been in an accident. Is this not the case? Or am I an idiot?


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## DrD

froze said:


> I saw pics of the head tube and what appeared to be a mark that all I thought was a mark from a cable or smudge of dirt. In fact I thought you were just showing us the pics to show that the bike hadn't been in an accident. Is this not the case? Or am I an idiot?


back in the thread a bit, there were some claims that the headtube was damaged - the pics which were shown initially didn't show any sort of damage - the new pic shows a spot which appears to be a heat tint associated with a new weld - looking at the weld bead, unless they redid everything on the head tube, it hasn't been rewelded at all, and the mark must be from something else (unless they did something on the inside of the tube, which would be surprising)


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## infopete

DrD said:


> back in the thread a bit, there were some claims that the headtube was damaged - the pics which were shown initially didn't show any sort of damage - the new pic shows a spot which appears to be a heat tint associated with a new weld - looking at the weld bead, unless they redid everything on the head tube, it hasn't been rewelded at all, and the mark must be from something else (unless they did something on the inside of the tube, which would be surprising)


The mark is too small to tell what it is and I can't actually tell what they did except turn it blue.

There isn't anything on the inside.

Anyway, once I get back from skiing, I'll be rebuilding it. Then riding it


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## froze

DrD said:


> back in the thread a bit, there were some claims that the headtube was damaged - the pics which were shown initially didn't show any sort of damage - the new pic shows a spot which appears to be a heat tint associated with a new weld - looking at the weld bead, unless they redid everything on the head tube, it hasn't been rewelded at all, and the mark must be from something else (unless they did something on the inside of the tube, which would be surprising)


I've never heard of any type of technology that would allow a repair to be made inside a tube. Maybe AGB service people cleaned and polished the frame and in the process of shining it up reviewed an original heat mark that was there from birth?


----------

