# Powertap build- Complete cycleops wheel, or custom build- Help!



## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Hey everybody-

I've been looking to dive into the powermeter game for a while, and the powertap sl+ prices are on closeouts right now. I have been dancing between either purchasing the complete cycleops sl+ rear wheel thru excelsports:

Power Tap SL+ Wheel With Joule 2.0 - Excel Sports

For roughly a grand, I'd get a complete rear wheel. Alloy 32H clincher, 20mm profile rim (dtswiss or velocity?). DT spokes, and also a Joule head unit. I'd eventually spend the 250 or so and get the matching front wheel.

The other option would be to buy through Neuvation, who is running a closeout on the powertap sl+. I can build a rear wheel for 695- using Neuvation r440 alloy clincher (or I can upgrade to DT 465, or 585). I can also choose spoke count, Sapim race, laser, or aero spokes, and brass or alloy nipples. I would also build a front wheel to match at the same time, using a white ind. hub (and choice of spokes and nipples). Wheel set cost would be about 950 (and i'd have to buy a Joule). So, at end of day, pricing would end up being about the same..

Now, I'm 6'4" 180lbs, a pretty big guy. Currently on 2011 Mavic Aksiums. I like the simplicity/ease of ordering the bundle from excel and getting the powertraining underway. But, I also like the idea of a lighter, more capable wheelset that I could tailor to my needs. I'd like to have a light/stiff wheelset that can take training and also do ok to race on. If this is the better way to go, I'd really appreciate some advice on what you experienced builders would reccomend for the wheelset build, front a rear:

Rim choice (Neuvation, or spend more for DT swiss 465, 585)
Spoke Count (front and rear)
Spoke Choice (Sapim race, laser, aero. Drive side and non)
Nipples (alloy or brass)

I'd really appreciate some advice- as I'd like to get it right the first time 

Thanks!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

The SL+ and Joule are cheap now... 2011 closeouts. You could go full custom with CX-Rays for just a little more from pretty much anyone.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Neuvation uses a Kinlin rim. So they are fairly strong. If you chose a 32-spoke Neuvation rim with the powertap, it would be a very strong wheel.

Oh, and choose RACE spokes, not laser for the rear wheel. I think Lasers are pretty thin, especially for a driveside spoke.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Thanks for the replys.

So, 32 spoke rear Neuvation R440, with Sapim Race on both sides...Strong enough for everyday use, and still a nice upgrade over my Aksium in stiffness (and 'raceworthiness')?

As far as front- Sapim lasers? How about spoke count?

Thanks!


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

The neuvation deal allows you to pick your fav computer if you don't want the joule. So if you have a garmin, you can use that instead.

I've never used the joule, but have read good reviews on it. Some may prefer a garmin over it though.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

I think I'm pretty set on the Joule. They have a new one coming out (but when?) that is smaller and much cheaper (but same functionality as the 2.0). The lack of GPS sucks, but I love the data fields that the Joule can display (rolling TSS, etc). I'll prob use my garmin 305 watch for GPS functionality.
Problem is, when you buy the Joule separate, the price is much higher. Still hunting for a good deal...


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

You can run 24 spokes on the front wheel with CX-Rays and have a great wheel. Fronts don't take nearly the abuse that the rear does. In fact, the standard factory Neuvation wheels are 20 front/24 rear and those get good reviews for durability.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Great advice, thanks.

Are the X-rays worth doing on the rear too (in 32h)? How are they, as far as stiffness goes, compared to the race?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

CX-Rays are strong spokes as well as aero. I think there is very little aero benefit from the spokes on a rear wheel, but you would still have a strong spoke.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Cool. Neuvation is offering a 10% discount ontop of everything also, so I'm thinking of doing the xrays to take advantage of the savings...
How about nipples- alloy vs brass?
I'm guessing alloy is lighter but more 'fragile'?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Brass for rear drive side at least. Alloy is lighter, but more fragile. Probably best for a front wheel.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Sounds good. Thanks for your advice.
Ok, as far as rear. Is there any reason I should consider a 28h over 32h? How much of a difference is there as far as stiffness, durability, and weight between the two configurations?


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

Just got mine in the mail 

I went with a 32 hole as I am around 200lbs and will use this as a training wheel and want it to be durable. If you use cx-rays, I think a 28h would be fine (IMO). Stiffness also depends on rim selected too.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Nice! what rim/spokes did you go with? How quick was it from ordering to recieving?


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

Went with the generic neuvation rim (heard it's manufactured by kinlin). Spokes were sapim lasers, meant to go with the race but :shrugs:

I ordered on Friday Oct 7th (late Friday afternoon, so essentially on Monday), processed Oct 11th, charged thee next day. Received on Oct 18th. Pretty darn good IMO, especially since it had to go through Canadian customs. I only had to pay a handling fee from Canada post (5$).

Just did a quick look-over and the wheel is nice and true lat/vert and each nipple has been greased. So far looks like a solid build. 2 skewers were included.

Edit* weight is 990-1000 grams on my alpine scale, w/o skewer/rimstrip


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

nightfend said:


> Brass for rear drive side at least.


My understanding is that the PowerTap hub applies the torque through the non-drive side, so wouldn't you reverse that recommendation?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

J-HY said:


> I think I'm pretty set on the Joule. They have a new one coming out (but when?) that is smaller and much cheaper (but same functionality as the 2.0). The lack of GPS sucks, but I love the data fields that the Joule can display (rolling TSS, etc). I'll prob use my garmin 305 watch for GPS functionality.
> Problem is, when you buy the Joule separate, the price is much higher. Still hunting for a good deal...


Apparently the power based metrics, such as TSS, will be coming to the Edge 500/800 with a firmware update. Garmin are doing this prior to the launch of Vector, but these will be available with any ANT+ power meter.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

oh really? any word on the release date of the firmware update??


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> My understanding is that the PowerTap hub applies the torque through the non-drive side, so wouldn't you reverse that recommendation?


It's the spoke angle on a rear wheel because of the dish of the wheel. 10/11 speed hubs have such a steep dish that the spokes on the drive side are almost vertical. So a stronger spoke on this side keeps the flexing down. Or that's my understanding of the principal behind it. A veteran wheelbuilder could probably elaborate.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

J-HY said:


> oh really? any word on the release date of the firmware update??


The latest update is here. Based on previous experiences, my guess is that we'll get the update in time for Christmas.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

nightfend said:


> It's the spoke angle on a rear wheel because of the dish of the wheel. 10/11 speed hubs have such a steep dish that the spokes on the drive side are almost vertical. So a stronger spoke on this side keeps the flexing down. Or that's my understanding of the principal behind it. A veteran wheelbuilder could probably elaborate.


Interesting, thanks!


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The DS spokes have a higher tension due to wheel dish. Typically the NDS is about 50% of the DS. So you put the stronger nipples on that side.

You can also use thicker spokes on the DS. I.e. Sapim race vs laser or cx-ray. That will add some lateral stiffness to the wheel.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I'm in on the Neuvation deal too! I had been considering Vector (before they announced pricing), and then started saving up for a Quarq. But this is more than a $1000 cheaper than the Quarq, and too good a deal to turn down. Finally, I can retire my old faithful wired PowerTap/OpenPro wheel.


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Just put the order through, thanks to the advice of you guys. I went with a rear wheel only (I'll get the front in time for spring- settling on a house and getting married before then so things are a bit 'tight'). Went with: the Neuvation R440 alloy clincher in black, 28h Powertap SL+ hub, Sapim CX-ray's in black with black nipples (brass DS, alloy NDS). Figured this build should be a nice all around wheel, stiffer (and maybe lighter) than my Aksium, and still durable (hopefully). Total shipped was about $680. I'm stoked. I was going to do the 32h, but it sounds like the 28h should be sufficient with the CX rays. I also though this would leave the possibility to lace the wheel into a deep carbon clincher in the future (which typically aren't available in 32h). 

Also, just found and bought a used Joule 2.0 for 99 bucks.. That should get me going nicely. I figure I'll re-evaluate the head unit market when the firmware update hits for the Garmin line, and when the new Cycleops Joule line hits. 

I'm ecstatic to (hopefully) be training with power for ~780, with a nice new wheel. Thanks everyone for your advice, this saved me nearly $250 over the pre-built cycle ops wheel package that I was about to buy, and should be a better wheel for my needs.

I'll post pics and weight when the wheel shows up..
Thanks again!


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

Nice job, joule for 99$? Score.

ebay?


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## J-HY (Mar 5, 2010)

Yep, that was an ebay score. I really wanted a Joule for the live Power metrics, but was tempted to do a garmin 500 since they're on ebay for 189 free shipping. But I saw the Joule for 99 BIN, jumped on it.
But, as of this morning the Garmin firmware upgrade released for the 800 (with the power metrics). I'm guessing the 500 update will release by the time I get my wheel...probably should have just went that route in hinsight!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ukbloke said:


> My understanding is that the PowerTap hub applies the torque through the non-drive side, so wouldn't you reverse that recommendation?


No. The drive side for a rear hub is the side with the drivetrain. It always has higher tension because of the width of the freehub and the necessary dish. .


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I decided to go with a lightweight option - the Neuvation rim, 24 holes, CX Rays both sides, and alloy nipples all round. I'm hopeful that a quality hand-built wheel will make up for my weight-weenie choices. I'm fairly easy on my wheels, and not had major problems with wheels in the past either. I can always rebuild it if it is not stiff enough. Once I remove the stickers it should be a reasonable aesthetic match to my DA 7850-SL front wheel!


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

J-HY said:


> Just put the order through, thanks to the advice of you guys. I went with a rear wheel only (I'll get the front in time for spring- settling on a house and getting married before then so things are a bit 'tight'). Went with: the Neuvation R440 alloy clincher in black, 28h Powertap SL+ hub, Sapim CX-ray's in black with black nipples (brass DS, alloy NDS).


Good wheel choice and spoke count. That wheel will be plenty strong.


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## NickTW (Jul 23, 2011)

Awesome thread - this is exactly the situation I'm in so I thought I'd bring it back from the dead for a moment. Only real difference: I weigh in at 155lbs. This is what I'm thinking, do you all think it will hold up as a good training and race wheel? I'm "upgrading" from a set up 20H Aksium Race wheels. 

Rear Wheel: 24H Neuvation R 440; Powertap SL+ hub; CX-ray spokes (DS & NDS); Brass Nipples (DS); Alloy nipples (NDS) 

Front Wheel: 20H Neuvation R 440; Hub *** (see below); CX-ray spokes (DS & NDS); Alloy Nipples (DS & NDS)

*** Front wheel hub - no idea here, and the price differences are pretty significant - would appreciate any insight. Here are the two choices I'm considering:

1) Front Hub Neuvation 20 Silver (105 grams) +$0
2) Front Hub DT 240 20 Black (108 grams) + $120 ... can afford this if its worth it, prefer the black to silver

Thanks in advance - first time purchasing a stand-alone wheelset, I'd like to get it right the first time!

Nick


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

I've had my Neuvation Powertap SL+ for about a month now. I ended up getting the 28 hole wheel, and I've been getting a lot of creaking spoke noises from the back when I stand up or put in a big effort. So I'm guessing the spoke tension is lower than it should be for the wheel, or the dish on the Powertap on the drive side is just really steep, and that's forcing the non-drive side spokes to be at a lower tension that they should be. In any case, I would not treat the Powertap as a normal hub and would definitely avoid a 24-spoke choice.

I plan to re-tension my wheel later this week, but I am really glad I didn't go with 24 spokes on the rear. BTW, I weigh 175, but you are a little lighter and might have less issues.


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## NickTW (Jul 23, 2011)

Great insight, thank you night. Did you get a Neuvation front wheel as well? Wondering if I should go 24H/28H instead of 20H/28H, or if the front sees less abuse and will be fine.

Thanks again.

Nick


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

I did get a front wheel as well, but I had them build it 24-spokes with a white industry silver hub and cx-ray spokes. The front is perfect.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

NickTW said:


> Great insight, thank you night. Did you get a Neuvation front wheel as well? Wondering if I should go 24H/28H instead of 20H/28H, or if the front sees less abuse and will be fine.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Nick


In my experience, adding spokes to the front wheel isn't quite as noticeable as adding them to the rear. Probably due to the tension despairity (sp*) between the drive and non drive. 
Go ahead and stick with a 20 hole. That will still be plenty stiff. 
Do you know what lacing pattern you will be selecting?


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## NickTW (Jul 23, 2011)

Hi Zen,

Thanks for your input. Going to show my total lack of know-how, but I have no idea what lacing pattern is used. Can't seem to find the information on the site anywhere, either. Is there an ideal pattern I should be looking for in a road wheel? Or one I should avoid?

Thanks,

Nick


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

In a somewhat similar vein to nightfend, I had some spoke creaking from my PowerTap rear wheel (Neuvation rim, 24 holes, alloy nipples, CX Rays). I heard it just a few times under very heavy torque and high power when climbing. I stress relieved the rear wheel and it seems to have gone away. I noticed that there's quite a lot of variation in tension on the non-drive side spokes, so if it comes back I will try to even them up a bit without making the wheel come too much out of true. I'm at 165 pounds.

All in all after one month - happy with the wheel, very happy with the price, but still rather wish that I'd gone for the C2 rim for the extra width.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

After another month on my PowerTap wheel I noticed that it had started to feel a bit flexy. This was noticeable under big efforts and also railing the corners during descents. After my last ride I noticed some noises too. It turned out that the wheel had lost about half of its total tension on the NDS, with some spokes down to such low tension that it would read as 0 or 1 with the Park meter, rather than the 7-8 that they had originally been tensioned to. Amazingly the wheel was still completely true, but you could deflect it into the brake pads easily with modest hand pressure. So I retensioned and retrued it, and it came up with very nicely balanced tension, significantly better than as delivered. Every NDS spoke came up to 8 and every DS spoke to 15-16. This is with the tire on and inflated so it is probably a little higher tensioned than before. I'll see how that works out. I note that Neuvation doesn't use anything to lock the nipples so I'm guessing they somehow just unwound over time mostly on the NDS.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

I had to re-tension my Powertap wheel I bought from Neuvation as well. I think they have a less than high quality wheel builder on staff.


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## pcs2 (Sep 4, 2006)

Same issue here too. However I'm quite lazy and haven't fixed it yet. Wheel is still quite true, but a couple of loose spokes on the NDS. 205 lbs btw and I've only ridden twice on the road, rest of the time on the trainer. No standing/super high efforts.

One of these days I'll take it out of the trainer.....


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