# zone training--can't stay in a low zone on hills (any hills!)



## drecktx (Oct 27, 2009)

This is my first post. I have been lurking for a bit and have found this forum to be the most constructive. There is a lot I need to learn, and I find the advice on the board to be very helpful. I started biking again about a year ago. I am 43 and am biking to get in shape and be able to keep up with friends who always kick my ass on rides. I want to build endurance and associated speed. I am really enjoying biking, and I don't have any desire to take it too seriously, but at the same time I am trying to figure out how to get the most bang for the buck (or the most results for my miles).

One question that I am sure has been addressed before, but I can't find, relates to zone training or base miles. I have been trying to mix up my training, doing some intense and shorter workouts, but also a fair amount of longer rides (1.5-2.5hr) at lower intensity. I use a heart rate monitor to help me understand how much exertion I am putting in.

My question is, what do I do about hills? If I am trying to keep in my "aerobic zone" (for me that is apparently between 127 and 140), I can do that on the flats, but when I get to any kind of hill (and I mean any!), my HR always goes up beyond where I am trying to keep it. Does this matter? Do I need grannier granny gear? Should I care? How important is all this? Am I being too literal in my interpretation of this training method?

Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2009)

Welcome to the forum.

Don't get too worried about it in general. As long as the bulk of your ride is meeting your goals you'll be fine, now if you're intent is to go ride at that pace and you spend half the ride winding up a mountain at a higher level you've turned it into something else. Maybe not detrimental but not what you intended. The only time I would consider it is if you're trying to do an easy or recovery ride then its counter to your purposes.

Its very likely that it is actually helping you and that if you got to the point where you could do those hills at that lower level you would be the one they were trying to keep up with.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IMO you're doing fine following this course of action, but I'd lighten up on thinking in such rigid terms re: HR zones. If you want, for the majority of the ride try to stay in the zone you mentioned, but when you get to a hill, don't sweat that for a period of time you're out of the zone. When you're at the top and can take some time to recover, do so by doing an easier spin for awhile to get back to the 127-140 range. And at the risk of causing you _more_ worry, you'll probably be _below_ that range on the downhill!  

Another option would be to leave the HR monitor home some days and just ride the ride you feel like that day. That's my method, but YMMV.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

> Does this matter?
> Do I need grannier granny gear?
> Should I care?
> How important is all this?
> Am I being too literal in my interpretation of this training method?


no
probably not
no
not so very
yes

What the others said. Don't worry so much. You're benefiting from the ride, and even if you're trying to stay in a lower zone, a few intense intervals won't hurt. Don't overthink it.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2009)

I didn't think of it early and don't remember who said it first but this is pretty good advice, "Don't be a slave to the monitor".


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

What they said.

I seriously doubt anyone ever got in great shape by worring about going above their "aerobic zone". I should mention I don't know squat about this stuff, though I do understand the benefits of reaching the "aerobic zone" the thought that going over it would be detrimental sounds downright crazy to me.


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## drecktx (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks. I think part of my question did have to do with "recovery" and then staging my workouts so they increase in intensity. My intuition prior to taking some time to study training methods was to go as fast and hard as I could for as long as I could. It seems like the "experts", though, counsel against that, calling it "overtraining". I am trying to put the theory into practice, and like anything other theory when it hits the real world its not so clean.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Not necessarily*



> My intuition prior to taking some time to study training methods was to go as fast and hard as I could for as long as I could. It seems like the "experts", though, counsel against that, calling it "overtraining"


.

Whether it's "overtraining" depends on lots of things, including your condition and, very importantly, how much time you're putting in. If you're a full-time pro racer and you ride 6 hours every day, eventually you'll get "overtrained" ("real damn tired") if you go hard all the time. If you're a regular working stiff like most of us, and can ride an hour or two every other day, you may never be able to put in enough miles to get overtrained.

There are signs of overtraining you can watch for, including a general fatigued feeling, elevated resting heart rat, and slow recovery to normal pulse after a hard effort. For most regular folks, taking it a little easy after a hard day, or if you just feel a little "off", is good enough.

Another question: how did you determine that aerobic zone target? There are various ways to determine heartrate zones, some of them notoriously imprecise. If it's based on a percentage of max heartrate, you need to determine the max accurately. The simple formulas (like 220 minus age) are not too reliable.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

put your HRM in the bin and just smash yourself


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2009)

alexb618 said:


> put your HRM in the bin and just smash yourself



you'll go blind doing that


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

I think in this context any "over training" that needs to be considered could be better described as "under recovering". As long as you stop short of hurting yourself.....the effort put out during a particular ride isn't something I'd be concerned with (within reason). Not recovering is and that's not something you can measure as you describe above during a ride.


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## funknuggets (Feb 4, 2004)

*My 2 cents...*

a little bit of training knowledge is dangerous to someone calling themselves a newbie. 

While in and of itself knowledge about the various inputs into cycling are often more a curse. I think its fairly common practice though. I know guys that read an article about lance and feel its necessary to have an average cadence of 100-110. I have seen dudes that know absolutely nothing go and get a powertap and focus on watts to sit in the pack on group rides. There are those that focus on average speed, and all the weird metrics that when used by themselves make little or no sense.

For a self-professed newbie... heartrate, while important should be one of the last things on your mind. As a newbie, I would focus on other things... like miles, which I would focus on getting at least one ride a week that is at minimum 2x the length of the group ride you are on. Have a real goal, that is perhaps weight oriented, or your diet... those will have far more profund effects on your life and bike than you think.

Once you start getting miles, hammer when you can hammer... maybe start some structured intervals. Here is where the heartrate monitor comes in handy. You make sure you recover smarter by keeping your hr low on recovery rides. You target hitting upper zones on your shorter more intense intervals, etc....

There is no perfect plan, I think for a new person, a heart rate monitor is good tool for getting data, but should not in any way be used as some sort of effort limiter especially when it comes to group rides. Take the thing off or put the monitor in your pocket when you ride in groups. There is nothing worse than feeling just fine in a group... looking down and seeing an unreal heartrate. Ive seen guys just brake and drop out... and thats retarded. Some of the best miles for getting faster will likely be in a group.

Like anything... too much of something is a bad thing. Just try not to overthink this. Right now, as you are LEARNING about training, don't be so narrow focused. Start big picture, then focus... a little more, a little more.

I think as your power increases, and your body's efficiency at delivering power increases, you will see things like heartrate start to decrease. If these small hills worry you, I think you could use some structured intervals, some hill repeats, and at minimum more miles. 

There are ways to train smart, and there are ways to train stupid. For beginners, in my opinion, you simply need to train and train more. 

Read about finding your resting heartrate, check it in the morning before you get out of bed. do that for a week and you will get a decent of average of what it is. If the day after a hard ride, your hr is significantly higher than your average heart rate, you might consider taking it easy that day.

Other than that.... dont become a slave to it. The posters here have given decent advice. Dont sweat it. If you ask me... go harder.


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## drecktx (Oct 27, 2009)

I appreciate all the comments. I totally agree that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in my hands (head)! 

Bottom line, I am really enjoying training on the bike. I may have gotten over-excited in my effort to learn how to get better and taken some of the advice too literally. That said, the idea of how to pace yourself, how to think about recovery, how to work intervals, is not something that is intuitively obvious (at least to me). 

I have had gone hard, as hard as I can. The results have not been ideal. I am quite useless for sometime afterwards and its hard to get back to where I was in my training. I have learned that killing yourself on a ride is ok if you recover appropriately and don't try to follow a killer ride immediately with another killer ride.

So that said, I think I get what it means to go as hard as I can for as long as I can, I think I understand recovery rides, I have an idea of how to do intervals, but my original question really dealt with how to think about those base miles I am trying to get under my belt.

Your collective advice has been very useful.

thanks


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## funknuggets (Feb 4, 2004)

*my advice*

It sounds like your goal is the simple and easy one: get faster

first thing... look at your stomach. If it could stand to lose some lbs, start there. 

make sure you are getting adequate base and rest.

Go find a group ride where there are a good many experienced riders who are better than you. Go, shut up, listen and watch, learn when people shift, when they stand, watch how the group works. If they are fairly experienced, watch how they move in the group, how they draft, and if you have to pull, keep your turns relatively short and remember your PULL does not end until you latch back on to the back rider. 

You are not going to do yourself any favors or impress anyone with a dreadful long pull where you are immediately punted off the back afterwards. You should pull the skin off your teeth to stay with the faster group as long as you can. You will more than likely get dropped at some point, its all part of the plan. Recover and rest. Then come back next time, and focus on hanging on longer, and longer. Just make sure you get adequate miles that are not simply anerobic a$$ kickings. 

Getting faster in cycling is not a passive thing. It will happen with greater inputs, and being smarter about how you eat, rest, and ride your bike.


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## cjd (Aug 27, 2009)

Just to be clear, are you recommending the poster keep riding with the group in order to improve speed, but be sure to get 1) adequate recovery from the group ride, and 2) base mileage (zone 2, non-anaerobic) in between the group rides?

I ask b/c I'm in a similar position as the original poster. Had my bike a couple of months and was invited on a so-called novice group ride and had my butt handed to me. So, I'm trying to sort out the advice I've gotten from riders.

Rider #1--Keep a cadence between 85-90 and worry little about everything else. (After the ride, "Do a bunch of zone 2 riding, that will be important for you. Get in a couple spinning classes, those would be good for you.)

Rider #2--Spinning would be good to add intensity to your workouts, but building an aerobic base would be more about just riding more miles.

Rider #3 (one that didn't ride that day)--How was the ride? (Me: I was dropped about 45 min. in) Well, if you lack a strong base then that can happen.

I've read on here that riding slow (e.g. in zone 2) only teaches you to be good to be good at riding slow. Other say, "avoid junk miles." Others says, the best way to get faster is to ride with those (groups or individual training partners) that are faster than you. So, I can empathize with those like myself who are wondering "Where do I start?"

Does it make sense for me to go on a weekly group ride and really push my limits? Or would I be better served trying to build an aerobic base, then return to riding in a group setting? Or do I try and get a ride or 2 in during the week to build base AND do the group ride on the weekend?

Advice from those more experienced than myself is appreciated.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2009)

cjd said:


> Rider #1--Keep a cadence between 85-90 and worry little about everything else. (After the ride, "Do a bunch of zone 2 riding, that will be important for you. Get in a couple spinning classes, those would be good for you.)
> 
> Rider #2--Spinning would be good to add intensity to your workouts, but building an aerobic base would be more about just riding more miles.
> 
> Rider #3 (one that didn't ride that day)--How was the ride? (Me: I was dropped about 45 min. in) Well, if you lack a strong base then that can happen.



For #1: Maintaining a cadence without any other parameters attached to it is to have no plan at all. A rider can noodle along doing little at around 90 and at the same time you could be rolling along like a freight train. 

#2-Not sure what you mean by "spinning" here, class or something else? There are a lot of opinions about building a base, which one will work best for you has a lot to do with your goals and how much time you have to train. Long slow distance works, if you have plenty of time to ride, but its hard to apply that if your time on the bike is limited.

#3-Everybody starts somewhere, don't feel bad about getting dropped. If you enjoy the group ride then do it, but count it as one of your hard rides for the week.


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## cjd (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts.

I meant spinning classes.

As far as time available for biking, I would say 3-4 hours during the week and time for 1 longer ride on the weekend. Once the time changes, I would have a little more time and could ride a bike to work (10 miles each way) too. What would you recommend given that training time available right now? 3 1hr. rides? 2 2hr. rides? I do have a trainer, so I can ride inside.

I don't have any racing goals right now, but would like to get to a level of fitness where I could do a group ride on weekends and not get dropped (those rides usually say 18-20 mph avg). Once I reach that point, I would be open to training for a race if I felt I wanted to spend the time on the bike.


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## funknuggets (Feb 4, 2004)

*Here is my take*

Its all a matter of what you want.

You need to ride different types of rides for different reasons. Do you want to ride longer, faster.... etc. Typically the normal answer is yes to all. So oftentimes you need to consider a holistic approach to training that allows you to attain the greatest good in what little time most of us have to train. 

Since the two of you are just starting, it is my guess that you lack a couple of things, longer rides at pace, and two poor recovery after hitting anerobic zones, thus... the physical propensity to get dropped immediately after a hill or an attack, a pull, etc.

These two things are almost at the absolute ends of the training universe, so you might just try to train generally to improve them both. And get to a point where you are at least a pack type of rider... then you can start to hone your skills.

What I was suggesting before is that new riders typically lack base and intensity. So I think its important to structure training... especially on limited hours to get both types of rides. One of the hardest rides around here occurs on Tuesdays. Its pure hell. Ride it hard. Recovery ride on wednesday. Thursday do some intervals if you can. Friday, recover.... then Saturday go for a long decent paced ride. Structure it how your schedule works. But get intensity, and get miles. 

I just know for a fact that just going to the group rides is going to do one of two things to structured training.... they typically will either go too fast, or too slow for your particular day. So, on limited hours you need to be flexible which carmichael and friel are not.

When you go hard, go hard like hell. On the group death ride... put your monitor away. Its a distraction. Focus on the wheel in front of you and hold onto it like grim death. When it is interval day.... work the intervals hard.... not like you have 10 more to go and you conserve. But, when its recovery day.... RECOVER. Its these days that the HR monitor becomes invaluable. 

I think the base portion of the standard periodization training plans is very important. If you are a beginner, get some adequate base first.

That is what I am saying.


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