# Ceramic Speed vs. Enduro Ceramic Bearings



## lotoja

Ceramic Speed bearings are nearly 3 times more expensive than an equivalent set from Enduro. What are the differences? Are there any? I've been looking around and really can't find much information on the Ceramic Speed bearings so I'm kind of wondering if there are any differences. Anyone have any information on the pros/cons of each?


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## bikeboy389

lotoja said:


> Ceramic Speed bearings are nearly 3 times more expensive than an equivalent set from Enduro. What are the differences? Are there any? I've been looking around and really can't find much information on the Ceramic Speed bearings so I'm kind of wondering if there are any differences. Anyone have any information on the pros/cons of each?


How much more expensive than conventional bearings are the Enduro ones? Easily three times, I'd bet. The way I see it, if you see going to ceramic as worth the cost, it shouldn't be too hard to rationalize spending three times that on "the best" ceramic while you're at it.

But that's just me.


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## Kung Fu Felice

Like they say, at this high level of performance, you're looking at diminishing returns for the money. The jump from $300 wheels to $900 wheels is huge. But the difference between $900 and $1800 is less dramatic, and even less dramatic from $1800 to $2700. 

So, if you are going to invest that much in getting the best out of your bearings, why not go all the way and see what all the commotion is about? If you can't tell the difference let the rest of us know so we can just stick with our steel bearings


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## Jack Hammer

Some ceramics only replace the balls, some have hardened races, some have rounder balls, etc. I found this out when looking into them recently. If you look at the specs for each one you will see the subtle differences. I'm not convinced that the advantages are fully applicable to bicycles. Ceramics biggest advantages are at higher temps and rpms, neither of which bicycles develop. I've decided to wait longer and see what happens. Stay away from the ones that only replace the balls in a normal bearing (generally the less expensive ones), due to the hardness of the ceramic balls the bearing races may wear out quicker. The biggest benefits (still relatively small) seem to come from fully ceramic bearing$. Let us know what you decide.

Best wishes

Jack


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## cy1

*Fwiw*

FWIW from the Rotor Cranks Website

http://www.rotorcranksusa.com/i1-sabb.shtml

"The CeramicSpeed balls are constructed of Grade 3 Silicon Nitride (Si3N4). This is the highest grade for hybrid ceramic bearings. The Enduro ABEC-5 hybrid bearings will give you most of the benefits of the Grade 3 Silicon Nitride (Si3N4) CeramicSpeed bearings, but at a much lower price tag. Compared to the Enduro steel bearings, both type of ceramic bearings have lower friction, lighter weight and longer service life. They are also less susceptible to dirt, dust and poor lubrication."


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## COLNAGOLMO

*ceramic bearings*

Re the debate over ceramic bearings. They all will give advantages over steel, at what cost and application. The derailleur pulleys are the most important, next are the crank, and then the wheels. My Zipps roll very, very well and I would never change them. Most importantly, their biggest advantage is NOT as high speeds, but rather LOWER speeds, like when you are climbing. While you're at it, best be prepared to order from your LBS finish line road cr ceramically reinforced, made for ceramic pully bearings, lubricant.


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## Kerry Irons

*Distilled nonsense*



COLNAGOLMO said:


> Re the debate over ceramic bearings. They all will give advantages over steel, at what cost and application. The derailleur pulleys are the most important, next are the crank, and then the wheels. My Zipps roll very, very well and I would never change them. Most importantly, their biggest advantage is NOT as high speeds, but rather LOWER speeds, like when you are climbing. While you're at it, best be prepared to order from your LBS finish line road cr ceramically reinforced, made for ceramic pully bearings, lubricant.


These claims are just nonsense. At a comparable specification, ceramic bearings in bicycle applications offer only a tiny weight savings. No reduction in friction that would be measureable in use. And how on earth do you conclude that the derailleur pulleys are most important? Likewise, since friction is proportional to speed, just what could the mechanism be that would offer a higher performance advantage at lower speeds?

Please advise what you are smoking/drinking so that we can all enjoy some of it


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## wim

Kerry Irons said:


> Likewise, since friction is proportional to speed, just what could the mechanism be that would offer a higher performance advantage at lower speeds?


The ceramic hucksters are using aerodynamic drag in relation to rolling resistance as their mechanism. Inasmuch as drag figures less at low speeds, a reduction in rolling resistance must figure more. Don't you see?


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## Forrest Root

Kerry Irons said:


> These claims are just nonsense. At a comparable specification, ceramic bearings in bicycle applications offer only a tiny weight savings. No reduction in friction that would be measureable in use. And how on earth do you conclude that the derailleur pulleys are most important? Likewise, since friction is proportional to speed, just what could the mechanism be that would offer a higher performance advantage at lower speeds?
> 
> Please advise what you are smoking/drinking so that we can all enjoy some of it


Whatever he's smokin' must be good stuff. I was given a set of derailleur pulleys that come with ceramic bearings and are oversized compared to the OEM pulleys. With all that I should be going at least 7-8 mph faster over an 11 mile course with 3-4000 feet elevation gain, but sadly I'm only going 4-5 mph faster. Of course, these gains are at low speeds, so when I say I'm going 4-5 mph faster, I mean for the same power output it require to go 3 mph with the OEM set up, I can now go 7-8 mph. Maybe it's 'cuz I didn't get the chain with the ceramic bushings.


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## jmoryl

lotoja said:


> Ceramic Speed bearings are nearly 3 times more expensive than an equivalent set from Enduro. What are the differences? Are there any? ....


Yeah, the owner Enduro has to be satisfied with a Lexus whilst the Ceramic Speed guy is able to afford a Bentley.


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## csboy

*Stick With The Enduro!*



I've Been Sticking Alot Of Enduros In All Kinds Of Wheels, Great Bearings. I Use The Grade 5 Ball Ceraqmic Hybrid Enduros Mostly. But Some Are Opting For The New Enduro Zero With The Grade 3 Usa Made Balls. Again Great Bearings. The Speed Claims Will Be Minimal, About 1 Sec A Kh For An Elite Athlete. Mainly Its The Durability As The Ceramic Ball Is 10 Times Harder Than The Steel Ball. With The New Hardened Races That Are Cryogenicly Treated And Matched With The Ceramic Ball The Durability Is Unmatched. For The Price Of The Enduro Grade 5 Bearing I Recommened To All Needing New Bearings. Believe Me Its Well Worth It. Just Don't Get Carried Away With The Speed Or Weight Claims, The Biggest Benifit Is Durability For The Amateur Rider.


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## Troy16

I got some bags of fairy dust for sale which you can sprinkle generously over your super ,stiff, super explosive, almost pedals itself, but also super comfy carbon frame with all the other cute weight weenie gadgets attached. This dust is good stuff i kid you not, you will explode up hills and punish bigger guys on the flats. Free shipping too, just $100 per bag. Send me a PM if you are interested. LMFAO


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## Kerry Irons

*Say what?*



csboy said:


> Believe Me Its Well Worth It. Just Don't Get Carried Away With The Speed Or Weight Claims, The Biggest Benifit Is Durability For The Amateur Rider.


So, the 90,000 miles I put on one set of Campy hub, pedal, and BB bearings or the 55,000 miles I put on another set, is not nearly enough? Given the cost differential, those ceramic bearings would have to last a REALLY long time to justify their cost. Longer, in fact, than virtually anybody ever rides a set of components. In practice for bicycling uses, there is zero benefit of ceramic bearings over comparable quality steel. If the ceramic bearings (and races - VERY important) are of better quality, then yes, they will last longer, but so will higher quality steel bearings and races. All else equal, ceramics will probably last longer, but it is longer than anyone can make use of. Otherwise, nothing is brought to the party except a nice niche market for the bearing sellers.


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## flyjoe

while ceramic balls are all the rage right now I am going to hold out for the diamond balls. Thats right, you heard it here first, balls made of diamond (man made or natural) ALL, the cool kids will be using them! and I want to be the first, at a mere $100.00 apeice(man made or $300.00 natural) so perfectly round, so hard, so totally cool, so totally out of reach of everyone else you will be the absolute badest man to ever ride a bike. dont wait start saving your pennies today!


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## csboy

*Poke Fun If You Must*

You Can Poke Fun At The Latest Craz If You Must, But Thats The Kind Of Thinking That Pokes Fun When Wood Rims Gave Way To Metalic Then Alum. Or Frames Move From Lead Pipes To Steel Thin Wall To Alum Alloy To Carbon. Or Components Change From Hand Operated To Cable To Battery. Laugh It Up Guys, But The Jokes On You. I Bet If I Saw Any Of Your Bikes You've Jumped On All The Advances That Have Come Along Also. I Doubt If Your Riding Circa 1920 Rigs, Pick And Choose The Advances You Want To Imbrace, And Others Will Do The Same. Ceramic Bearings Are Very Affordable Now Thats Why They Have Come Into The Bicycle Market. A Few Play On The Hype And Over Price, But Over All Very Affordable. Like Enduro Grade 5 Ball With Abec 5 Specs, Very Affordable. Like Itor Not The Advances Will Continue To Come, If Some Don't Float Your Boat Don't Adopt.


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## Kerry Irons

*Turn it off?*



csboy said:


> You Can Poke Fun At The Latest Craz If You Must, But Thats The Kind Of Thinking That Pokes Fun When Wood Rims Gave Way To Metalic Then Alum. Or Frames Move From Lead Pipes To Steel Thin Wall To Alum Alloy To Carbon. Or Components Change From Hand Operated To Cable To Battery. Laugh It Up Guys, But The Jokes On You. I Bet If I Saw Any Of Your Bikes You've Jumped On All The Advances That Have Come Along Also. I Doubt If Your Riding Circa 1920 Rigs, Pick And Choose The Advances You Want To Imbrace, And Others Will Do The Same. Ceramic Bearings Are Very Affordable Now Thats Why They Have Come Into The Bicycle Market. A Few Play On The Hype And Over Price, But Over All Very Affordable. Like Enduro Grade 5 Ball With Abec 5 Specs, Very Affordable. Like Itor Not The Advances Will Continue To Come, If Some Don't Float Your Boat Don't Adopt.


Could you please fix your browser, or whatever it is that capitalizes the first letter in every word? It makes your posts really hard to read. And don't convert to all capitals, like you did in another thread on brake pads. Give the rest of us a break.


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## jmoryl

csboy said:


> You Can Poke Fun At The Latest Craz If You Must, But Thats The Kind Of Thinking That Pokes Fun When Wood Rims Gave Way To Metalic Then Alum. Or Frames Move From Lead Pipes To Steel Thin Wall To Alum Alloy To Carbon. Or Components Change From Hand Operated To Cable To Battery. Laugh It Up Guys, But The Jokes On You. I Bet If I Saw Any Of Your Bikes You've Jumped On All The Advances That Have Come Along Also. I Doubt If Your Riding Circa 1920 Rigs, Pick And Choose The Advances You Want To Imbrace, And Others Will Do The Same. Ceramic Bearings Are Very Affordable Now Thats Why They Have Come Into The Bicycle Market. A Few Play On The Hype And Over Price, But Over All Very Affordable. Like Enduro Grade 5 Ball With Abec 5 Specs, Very Affordable. Like Itor Not The Advances Will Continue To Come, If Some Don't Float Your Boat Don't Adopt.


I'm glad I missed the lead pipe frame era! Still, I'm not ready to Imbrace ceramic bearings.


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## estone2

Kerry Irons said:


> Could you please fix your browser, or whatever it is that capitalizes the first letter in every word? It makes your posts really hard to read. And don't convert to all capitals, like you did in another thread on brake pads. Give the rest of us a break.


I'M TYPING THIS MESSAGE TO YOU IN ALL CAPITALS. THUS, ROADBIKEREVIEW AUTOMATICALLY CONVERTS IT TO FIRST WORD CAPITALIZED SO AS TO NOT MAKE IT ALL CAPS.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE POST IN ALL CAPS. IT JUST PROVES THEM TO BE AN IDIOT, AND IT'S KIND OF REALLY ANNOYING.

Edit: Interesting. RBR apparently only does that for thread titles. It lets actual messages be all caps?
Or maybe it's because I quoted you, and within the quote are lowercase letters, thereby making the message not all caps.


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## Troy16

Kerry Irons said:


> So, the 90,000 miles I put on one set of Campy hub, pedal, and BB bearings or the 55,000 miles I put on another set, is not nearly enough? Given the cost differential, those ceramic bearings would have to last a REALLY long time to justify their cost. Longer, in fact, than virtually anybody ever rides a set of components. In practice for bicycling uses, there is zero benefit of ceramic bearings over comparable quality steel. If the ceramic bearings (and races - VERY important) are of better quality, then yes, they will last longer, but so will higher quality steel bearings and races. All else equal, ceramics will probably last longer, but it is longer than anyone can make use of. Otherwise, nothing is brought to the party except a nice niche market for the bearing sellers.



You are clearly missing the point Kerry. These CAT 2's, CAT 3's and 4' and 5's are accelerating their bikes at near supersonic speed. They are generating far more heat and strain on their components than what you find in a Nascar engine or a NASA shuttle. I have seen these ceramic bearing riders go from a 17mph average to 21mph or more just with the addition of ceramic bearings and an extremely strong tailwind. But the tailwind had little to do with it probably??? LOL


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## koch

jmoryl said:


> Yeah, the owner Enduro has to be satisfied with a Lexus whilst the Ceramic Speed guy is able to afford a Bentley.


Best comment yet...

Think of it this way. Sometimes placebos have real effects, psychologically speaking that is.


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## flyjoe

csboy
ok I'll bite; define "very affordable". and if they are very affordable then why cant I get them at the local hardware store?


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## cocoboots

buy the hype! :thumbsup: 

it's a lot of money for a 1% return


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## csboy

*One week of lunch*



flyjoe said:


> csboy
> ok I'll bite; define "very affordable". and if they are very affordable then why cant I get them at the local hardware store?


I piss away more money in a week for lunch then it took to install enduro grade five ball ceramic bearings in my Reynolds carbon fiber wheels. Hows that for a definition of "very affordable". I know your new to cycling, but hardware stores carry no bike bearings of any kind for high end road bikes. If you don't believe me drive around town and see for yourself.


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## koch

csboy said:


> I piss away more money in a week for lunch then it took to install enduro grade five ball ceramic bearings in my Reynolds carbon fiber wheels. Hows that for a definition of "very affordable". I know your new to cycling, but hardware stores carry no bike bearings of any kind for high end road bikes. If you don't believe me drive around town and see for yourself.


Then I would suggest bringing your lunch from home in a brown paper sack. Even if I could afford your lunch budget, I certainly wouldn't use it to justify the expense of ceramic bearings. It's affordable for me to buy titanium brake bosses for my mountain bike, but I don't think it's worth the extra ten bucks or so.

Forgive me if I'm not impressed with your "enduro grade five ball ceramic bearings in [your] Reynolds carbon fiber wheels." I guess boutique components were made just for people like you. Enjoy...


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## csboy

*Not Bringing My Lunch*



koch said:


> Then I would suggest bringing your lunch from home in a brown paper sack. Even if I could afford your lunch budget, I certainly wouldn't use it to justify the expense of ceramic bearings. It's affordable for me to buy titanium brake bosses for my mountain bike, but I don't think it's worth the extra ten bucks or so.
> 
> Forgive me if I'm not impressed with your "enduro grade five ball ceramic bearings in [your] Reynolds carbon fiber wheels." I guess boutique components were made just for people like you. Enjoy...


Look, my lunch is my business. The bearing set is $108. Thats cheap to me. Further more, didn't buy the wheels or the bearings to impress, got it. They are to race. Your new to this also, why jump in on this thread? Why make comments like "I'm not impressed", "people like you". Some of you guys kill me. Get over the fact some people have higher budgets for road cycling then others, and spend some money how "they" choose to. Does it really take a 7 series BMW to run to the store? No. But they sure sell the piss out of em, don't they!


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## koch

flyjoe said:


> csboy
> ok I'll bite; define "very affordable". and if they are very affordable then why cant I get them at the local hardware store?





csboy said:


> I piss away more money in a week for lunch then it took to install enduro grade five ball ceramic bearings in my Reynolds carbon fiber wheels. Hows that for a definition of "very affordable". I know your new to cycling, but hardware stores carry no bike bearings of any kind for high end road bikes. If you don't believe me drive around town and see for yourself.


Let me reiterate. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen... And with 25 posts under your belt, you're hardly an old-hand on this forum


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## Forrest Root

csboy said:


> I piss away more money in a week for lunch then it took to install enduro grade five ball ceramic bearings in my Reynolds carbon fiber wheels. Hows that for a definition of "very affordable". I know your new to cycling, but hardware stores carry no bike bearings of any kind for high end road bikes. If you don't believe me drive around town and see for yourself.


Oh, please: instruct us poor, unknowing sods about where quality bearings can be found. Let us sip from your fountain of bearing knowledge so that we may know where the good bearings are hidden.


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## QQUIKM3

*You are dead right. .*



Kerry Irons said:


> These claims are just nonsense.


When I was working as an engineer for a aerospace company, I used ceramics once! Of course this was on a shaft spinning at 35K RPM. It's truly humorous what some will dump money on when a 100 gram lighter wheel-set at 20mph would bring actual measured benefit in regards to drag.


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## gfoley

Greetings Everyone:

It could be all about the bearing if you want it to be.

I guess regardless of what is said, it all boils down to physics, then you buy according to your budget and/or preferences. In my case I am a young 52, meaning that I ride more than most riders my age. Since I have ridden all my life, and since I made a trek from Colorado Springs back home to Grove City, Ohio (some 1,500 miles our route) I, felt like moving up in the world in which I live, cycling. Thus, after I crashed my Lotus cycle two years ago, and have been without a cycle since, I decided it was time to move up in the world, so I splurged and am now in the process of building the "best" cycle for me,i.e., and that would be the Pinarello Dogma FPX. No, it's not for everyone, but it's for me. There is nothing cheap about the process -- over 5k for the frame, over 4k for the Lightweight Standard wheelset, Fazik saddle, etc. And yes, according to how I want to do it it will have grade 3 ceramic speed bearings in both wheels, pawl, and campy record BB, then grade 5 will go into the pulley set up. Although the grade in 3 has less rolling resistance than a 5, the rear pulley set will continue to be loose enough for me, as the drag coefficient (the constant in math, not a variable) will decrease much more than steel, but will not increase noticably over the grade 3 ceramic ball. 

Bottom line says, if you want to spend money on a grade 3 set up, do it where it counts the most,e.g., cranks & both hubs. At least go the grade 5 in the pulleys -- way better than steel, but a human will never notice the difference using grade 3 -- case closed. 

By the way, the guy with the expensive lunch is right, if you can do it, why not. All I can say is just do it for YOU. Remember, Bubba down the street who rides his 40 pound schwinn may surprise you, as he keeps up with you when you ride your grade 3 bearings, lol. It's all relative my friends! It's what you want, and are will to pay for or charge -- it's up to you. YES, CERAMIC IS BETTER. 

Take care!


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## SwiftSolo

gfoley said:


> Greetings Everyone:
> 
> It could be all about the bearing if you want it to be.
> 
> I guess regardless of what is said, it all boils down to physics, then you buy according to your budget and/or preferences. In my case I am a young 52, meaning that I ride more than most riders my age. Since I have ridden all my life, and since I made a trek from Colorado Springs back home to Grove City, Ohio (some 1,500 miles our route) I, felt like moving up in the world in which I live, cycling. Thus, after I crashed my Lotus cycle two years ago, and have been without a cycle since, I decided it was time to move up in the world, so I splurged and am now in the process of building the "best" cycle for me,i.e., and that would be the Pinarello Dogma FPX. No, it's not for everyone, but it's for me. There is nothing cheap about the process -- over 5k for the frame, over 4k for the Lightweight Standard wheelset, Fazik saddle, etc. And yes, according to how I want to do it it will have grade 3 ceramic speed bearings in both wheels, pawl, and campy record BB, then grade 5 will go into the pulley set up. Although the grade in 3 has less rolling resistance than a 5, the rear pulley set will continue to be loose enough for me, as the drag coefficient (the constant in math, not a variable) will decrease much more than steel, but will not increase noticably over the grade 3 ceramic ball.
> 
> Bottom line says, if you want to spend money on a grade 3 set up, do it where it counts the most,e.g., cranks & both hubs. At least go the grade 5 in the pulleys -- way better than steel, but a human will never notice the difference using grade 3 -- case closed.
> 
> By the way, the guy with the expensive lunch is right, if you can do it, why not. All I can say is just do it for YOU. Remember, Bubba down the street who rides his 40 pound schwinn may surprise you, as he keeps up with you when you ride your grade 3 bearings, lol. It's all relative my friends! It's what you want, and are will to pay for or charge -- it's up to you. YES, CERAMIC IS BETTER.
> 
> Take care!


I think you have it exactly right. I just finished reading "Younger Next Year" and loved the comment that us older guys who are "frugal" in our purchase of bicycles /skis / etc. have failed to calculate how long we'll be dead. I enjoy my Tarmac pro so much that I'm going to purchase a new tarmac s-works sl2 with the new Shimano groupo soon and use my current Tarmac for winter riding in the rain--most of the winter up here.

It seems to me that every thread has about 55% Ludites, 35% technogeeks, and 10% who really want to know the answer--independant of some social agenda. I wonder what will happen if we start a thread tittled "Shifters, down tube or brifters?". Likely to get a real education


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## Wheel Right

lotoja said:


> Ceramic Speed bearings are nearly 3 times more expensive than an equivalent set from Enduro. What are the differences? Are there any? I've been looking around and really can't find much information on the Ceramic Speed bearings so I'm kind of wondering if there are any differences. Anyone have any information on the pros/cons of each?


Back to the point of the thread. Assuming you believe there is a reason to use ceramic bearings, the question is whether there is a reason to choose one brand over another if the products are identical . . . the answer is no, not if the products are identical . . . but in this case, the products may or may not be identical.

Quality specifications in hybrid ceramic bearings include 4 or 5 basic parameters that are important to consider [it is easy to believe you are looking at two similar products that are actually worlds apart in price and justifiably so]:

1. Ceramic Ball Bearings are "graded" by their roundness. Rounder is better. The smaller "Grade" for a Ball Bearing, the rounder it is, therefore Grade 1 is rounder than Grade 10. Rounder is better because the bearing has less rolling resistance the smoother it is, and because Ceramic balls are much harder than the steel races they run in, so a "rough ball" would pit the races and degrade the system. Ceramic Speed bearings use Grade 3 balls, which is the tolerance standard for the Tour de France. Grade 2 (used by Zipp) has zero advantage in a bicycling application. On the other hand Grade 5 Ceramic Bearings have inferior durability and friction performance in a bicycling application like bottom bracket or hub bearings. 


Ceramic Speed = Grade 3 only
Enduro = Offers bearings with Grade 5 balls which contributes to a reputation that they are not as high of quality as CS, on the other hand, they also offer Enduro Zero bearings which use Grade 3 ceramic balls.
Steel = I do not know of any Grade 3 steel ball bearings

2. Steel races are typically graded by ABEC #s. Unlike ball roundness, where smaller numbers are better, in this case, higher numbers are better. ABEC 5 races are a minimum for ceramic bearings, but ABEC 7 is better. Without getting too techy, you want a hardened steel that is treated for corrosion resistance. Rockwell C-64 is a good hardness metric to mate with a Grade 3 Ball.


CeramicSpeed Hybrid = good hard corrosion resistant races
Enduro = offers a range of quality and price tradeoffs including ABEC 5 races mated to Grade 5 balls. 
Enduro Zero = Races are Rockwell C-64, Corrosion resistant, and of at least the same caliber as CS.

3. Seals. Much of the hoo ha around reduced friction is actually in the redesign of seals to reduce drag. Although this can be a part of any bearing, it makes sense to put low drag mechanical seals in ceramic and hybrid bearings. CeramicSpeed and Enduro Zero make low drag effective seals available for bicycle applications, whereas the middle of the range Enduro Hybrid bearings do not have similarly nice seals . . . 

In other words, when comparing Enduro and Ceramic Speed Hybrid Bearings, consider Enduro Zero Bearings as similar to CeramicSpeed and then decide for yourself what price/value, access, and convenience tradeoffs you want to make. 

I recently installed a set of 7 Enduro Zero Hybrid Ceramic bearings in a set of White Industry H2 hubs. It cost me $220. The same set of mid range Enduro Hybrid Ceramic bearings would have cost me $110. I have no idea what the price of a similar set of CeramicSpeed bearings might cost, but I know I did a similar upgrade a few years ago using CeramicSpeed bearings, and they are still going strong . . . I pulled apart the hub to check before writing this, and sure enough . . . like new and smoooth. You can't go wrong with either Enduro Zero or CeramicSpeed Hybrid Ceramics.

[note: at 6'3" tall, 220#, living on the top of a 2.5mi x 7.5% grade, near the salt water air of an ocean, I can measure both the extended life of hybrid ceramic bearings versus steel and the marginal increase in performance. On the other hand they are neither necessary or the right solution for everyone.]. 

Have a good ride.


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## Jesse D Smith

Kerry Irons said:


> These claims are just nonsense. At a comparable specification, ceramic bearings in bicycle applications offer only a tiny weight savings. No reduction in friction that would be measureable in use. And how on earth do you conclude that the derailleur pulleys are most important? Likewise, since friction is proportional to speed, just what could the mechanism be that would offer a higher performance advantage at lower speeds?
> 
> Please advise what you are smoking/drinking so that we can all enjoy some of it


Considering the joke name, and only one post, I think it's nonsense by design. Somewhere a troll is belching in appreciation of a good meal.


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## UnitedWeRide

I run the Enduro Ceramics in my American Classic wheels and my Ultegra BB. I am not an expert on the science of all the hoopla between ceramic vs steel, but I noticed a difference myself. They just feel smoother to me and my wheels spin for days. But this is my opinion and I am glad I spent the extra money.


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## Blue CheeseHead

I just replaced my Dura-Ace bottom bracket with an Enduro Zero unit. I can tell you that there is a noticable difference. You can see it when you spin the crankset without a chain on it. 3-4 revolutions with Dura-Ace and 15-20 seconds of spinning with the Enduro. Once the chain is installed, you can feel a difference in the effort required to turn the crank when tuning the bike vs the old bottom bracket. On the road it is much smoother and I swear I and feel an effort difference. I'm sold.

I wish I had a power meter to be able to see if there is an imperical difference.

I am happy with the $150 spent. (and I'm cheap :wink


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## flyboy50

> I just replaced my Dura-Ace bottom bracket with an Enduro Zero unit. I can tell you that there is a noticable difference. You can see it when you spin the crankset without a chain on it. 3-4 revolutions with Dura-Ace and 15-20 seconds of spinning with the Enduro. Once the chain is installed, you can feel a difference in the effort required to turn the crank when tuning the bike vs the old bottom bracket. On the road it is much smoother and I swear I and feel an effort difference. I'm sold.
> 
> I wish I had a power meter to be able to see if there is an imperical difference.
> 
> I am happy with the $150 spent. (and I'm cheap )



I'm glad you like your new BB, but spinning the cranks and seeing how long they spin is meaningless. This bears no resemblance to how they will perform UNDER LOAD. Read the thread, this has been discussed numerous times.


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## Blue CheeseHead

flyboy50 said:


> I'm glad you like your new BB, but spinning the cranks and seeing how long they spin is meaningless. This bears no resemblance to how they will perform UNDER LOAD. Read the thread, this has been discussed numerous times.


I read the thread. Read my post. I stated it could be seen with no load, felt with minimal load (as in when tuning) and when riding (heavy load). Oh, by the way, I am an engineer and as a hobby have been squeezing extra horsepower out of engines for years. Reducing friction is key in that effort. 

While not bicycle specific, check this out:

http://www.semiconductor.net/article/CA6589942.html 

Reduced deformation in ceramic under load does nothing but reduce it's rolling resistance as compared to steel. I am also to understand that ceramic bearings can use a less viscous lubricant and have looser seals than steel. All three of those items help reduce drag.

Bottom line is that I have no regrets and will enjoy my ceramic bottom bracket for years to come.


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## mr_pitiful

flyjoe said:


> while ceramic balls are all the rage right now I am going to hold out for the diamond balls. Thats right, you heard it here first, balls made of diamond (man made or natural) ALL, the cool kids will be using them! and I want to be the first, at a mere $100.00 apeice(man made or $300.00 natural) so perfectly round, so hard, so totally cool, so totally out of reach of everyone else you will be the absolute badest man to ever ride a bike. dont wait start saving your pennies today!


I have brass balls, or so I'm told. I know you're talking bottom brackets here but on impulse I clicked on the Neuvation advert that's all over this site and ordered a set of wheels in which I opted for the ceramic's. They do "seem" faster and smoother that I'd hoped, especially for the price. 

I guess I'd have to have the same set without the ceramics to be sure but for the price,$428 shipped, I'm very happy. I must admit however, I have never bragged about, or even mentioned my ceramic balls.

Until now.


----------



## cxwrench

i got the chance to install enduro zero hybrids in my rr track wheel and full ceramics in the front as well as the enduro zero hybrid bb the week before masters nats. the wheels are Cane Creek Endurance 85's, and the hubs are machined really well, the stock bearings feel really smooth. other than those changes, the bike was the same. i wore the same skinsuit as usual, but added a tt helmet w/ what looks to be a decent aero fit. i managed to drop 2.5 seconds off my kilo PR in absolutely perfect conditions. i know the helmet is worth a bunch, but i guess the bearings could have been worth a tenth or so. the bike sure felt smoooooth that nite! when the announcer read off my time, i thought he was talking about someone else...i can't wait to try a kilo at ADT one of these days.


----------



## gatorling

Spend that $300 or $900 on an indoor trainer and squeeze in 2 more hours of quality training into your super busy week (which I'm sure you have since you're able to even consider $900 ceramic bearings!).

Or put that $900 towards a power meter and learn to train with one to improve the quality of your existing training efforts.

Either path will give you much more performance per buck.
Someone with a SRM/Ergomo/Cinco should spend 1 hr on a trainer with and without ceramic bearings and see the power reduction at different speeds. I bet you it's less than the margin of error on most PMs.


----------



## android

The bearings in my DA BB went bad, so my shop pressed in an new set of Enduro steel bearings with the low contact seals. (the rubber kind, not the aquatic mammal) My crank now spins so freely that I passed some people with ceramic bearings. Technology is amazing sometimes!


----------



## Hoffman

Velonews did a test a couple years ago (roughly). They tested a bunch of BBs. Winner was a used, old-ass Campy Mirage w/ steel bearings. It didn't win by 1-2%, it won by a large, large margin. Smoothness of bearings by feel/spinning cranks is a crap measurement.

Feel an old BB w/ caged steel BB vs ANY outboard system and the old one will be smoother almost every time, at least by hand feel. There is a thread around here somewhere about new carytridge bearing seal drag. The net concensus is that seal drag (which you can feel by hand) is meaningless in real situations, so moving from steel outboard to ceramic outboard should be the same. No difference.

Although I don't believe in them, at the end of the day, an elite racer at the peak of his/her physical prowess should enjoy the slight perf gain in ceramics (thanks sponsors!). Most riders, myself def included, should stop deluding themselves that saving 50g or reducing rolling resistance by1-3watts will make a difference. It just really doesn't.

That being said, if money is no object, then fk it. Buy em up. Eventually those moreons are supporting the development of pro cycling (in a roundabout way...sponsors), which is a bonus to me because maybe one day we'll get more than just our Sunday Cyclism on VS!

Hoffman


----------



## aaronis31337

Troy16 said:


> You are clearly missing the point Kerry. These CAT 2's, CAT 3's and 4' and 5's are accelerating their bikes at near supersonic speed. They are generating far more heat and strain on their components than what you find in a Nascar engine or a NASA shuttle.


Tell me you're joking.


----------



## Dr_John

> Tell me you're joking.


So the part about accelerating to near supersonic speed wasn't a big enough clue?


----------



## zzzman20

*how did all the 6 year olds get in here?*

Oh, my god, I look at this forum to try to find some info about differences between ceramic bearings, and almost all of it is whiny b!tches giving opinions about equipment they have never even used and don't know anything about!! :idea: 

You sound like a bunch of elementary school kids making fun of each other! :mad2: 

Thank you to WheelRight and a few others for putting down actual technical information about bearing differences and some first hand experience. The rest of you idiots, shut the [email protected] up! 

The durability factor is a large difference, I have worn out bearings in bottom brackets. Maybe in super clean road riding they might last forever but I primarily mountain bike (and yes I maintain, clean and grease my bearings). The hardness is 2.5x that of steel (1600 kg/mm^2 vs 700 for steel) not 10x as one person said, but that equates to 5-10x durability, at least with very hard steel races not soft stainless ones. Ceramic bearings have less friction than steel, although the actual power loss difference is quite small, it is still there. If these advantages are worth the extra money is up to you... probably not for most riders, but if you've got a super sweet bike and ride all the time and are in great shape, maybe so. 

If you have spare cash, why not reduce your friction amd increase durability? Yes, get yourself in the best shape possible, for free, then if you want to go a little faster, and and don't mind spending a lot of money (on a part that will last forever) go for it. Its not THAT much money, anyway, geez. Don't know why so many people are being ignorant a$$holes on here...


----------



## cocoboots

Welcome to the forum, nice first post. Do you always fling insults and vulgarities when you meet new people? 5 internet points to the first person to figure out who's troll account you are.

i had an enduro bearing that lasted a few months before the race became heavily pitted from winter riding/wet weather. to my surprise the shop replaced the bearing. they said they have enough margin to cover the bearing replacement for a long time cust. I think I'll pass on the bearing upgrade for my new 7900 group.





zzzman20 said:


> Oh, my god, I look at this forum to try to find some info about differences between ceramic bearings, and almost all of it is whiny b!tches giving opinions about equipment they have never even used and don't know anything about!! :idea:
> 
> You sound like a bunch of elementary school kids making fun of each other! :mad2:
> 
> Thank you to WheelRight and a few others for putting down actual technical information about bearing differences and some first hand experience. The rest of you idiots, shut the [email protected] up!
> 
> The durability factor is a large difference, I have worn out bearings in bottom brackets. Maybe in super clean road riding they might last forever but I primarily mountain bike (and yes I maintain, clean and grease my bearings). The hardness is 2.5x that of steel (1600 kg/mm^2 vs 700 for steel) not 10x as one person said, but that equates to 5-10x durability, at least with very hard steel races not soft stainless ones. Ceramic bearings have less friction than steel, although the actual power loss difference is quite small, it is still there. If these advantages are worth the extra money is up to you... probably not for most riders, but if you've got a super sweet bike and ride all the time and are in great shape, maybe so.
> 
> If you have spare cash, why not reduce your friction amd increase durability? Yes, get yourself in the best shape possible, for free, then if you want to go a little faster, and and don't mind spending a lot of money (on a part that will last forever) go for it. Its not THAT much money, anyway, geez. Don't know why so many people are being ignorant a$$holes on here...


----------



## Happy_Efjon

Hello Everyone!!

I never had ceramic bearings before until this past spring before going to Leadville Colorado for a 125 mile century ride. My good friend from Florida who owns a bike shop http://1procycling.info/ told me to ship the Mavic Wheels so he can slap some ceramic speed bearings. http://www.ceramicspeed.com/. I was already pretty satisfied with the bearings that were on my Mavics Sl to begin with but he said you will see what I am talking about when you get them back. Anyways to make a long story short I got the wheels back in time and I took them to colorado with me and I had no problem passing the 50 MPH barrier on the downhills during the Leadville trip. All I can say is the Ceramic bearings are trully Fast. As for CeramicSpeed itself. Brian told me the big diffrence is how they make thier casings they are built to last thats what separate them from the competition. So far I have logged over 1000 miles on the wheels this year and all I can say is they are even faster now that they are broken in. I just purchased some Reynolds Assaults and I can tell you that when I spin both wheels at the same time with the bikes upside down the Mavics bearings are spinning longer than the stock Reynolds. But off course the Reynolds are still more Areo so that gives them and advantage on higher speed. I am very Happy I did the upgrade with the Mavics Brian gave me a deal off course because of our friendship but it will cost anyone at least $325.00 to get them on a set of wheels. Thats installed and shipped. I dont know if you are aware Ceramicspeed only sells to the dealers. 

Now for the Enduro Bearings. I have an 09 Super Six Cannondale I purchased this year and the Original bearings that were used on the BB30 crank were crap. I purchased the Enduro Zero from Enduro as an upgrade http://www.endurobearings.com/bicycle.html. All I can tell you is that I am very Happy with the upgrade as well my Crank BB30 is buttery smooth and Joe who is the Customer rep has one fo the best Customer service you can ask for. He is quick to response to questions. So Bottom line is I have had nothing but good luck with both brands. I dont think anyone can go wrong either way. Ceramic speed is more expensive but hey these things are built not in china or taiwan but in Europe and check out their Facility they have trully invested some technology to ensure you are getting a quality product so you get what you pay for. it all depends on how many weeks you want to go on a peanut butter sandwich diet thats how I look at it.lol

Hope this helps

Happy


----------



## Rok63

anybody seen this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Tc1U1Tg34
Please, comment!


----------



## laffeaux

Wheel Right said:


> Back to the point of the thread. Assuming you believe there is a reason to use ceramic bearings, the question is whether there is a reason to choose one brand over another if the products are identical . . . the answer is no, not if the products are identical . . . but in this case, the products may or may not be identical.


I just read this post (made more than a year ago). This is likely the best post I've read on RBR. It's full of facts, well written, seemingly unbiased, and answers the original question. I wish that we saw more post like this.


----------



## danl1

Rok63 said:


> anybody seen this one?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Tc1U1Tg34
> Please, comment!


Big deal.

This is the one that really proves it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqiNL4Hn04A

















You can get that magnitude of difference from the same wheelset with normal bearings, with nothing more than skewer tension providing the difference.


----------



## Mark Kelly

As someone stated on the first page of this thread, derailleur pulleys will make the largest dfference as their rotational speed is highest.

I recently tested some derailleur pulleys with plain (sleeve) bearings vs some stainless steel ball bearings and found that under typical conditions the steel ball beairngs in your derailleur consume about 60 mW at full speed - that figure is for two bearings with a load (as applied by the cage spring). The advantage of ceramic over steel is thus limited to less than 60 mW, and remember these are the bearings where the power consumption is likely to be the greatest. 

Since 60 mW less than 1/5000 of my power output the price difference seems a little tough to justify.

In the interests of science, however, I've just ordered a set of ceramic bearing jockey wheels and will test them for power conumption and report back.


----------



## Midwest Playa

Mark Kelly said:


> As someone stated on the first page of this thread, derailleur pulleys will make the largest dfference as their rotational speed is highest.
> 
> I recently tested some derailleur pulleys with plain (sleeve) bearings vs some stainless steel ball bearings and found that under typical conditions the steel ball beairngs in your derailleur consume about 60 mW at full speed - that figure is for two bearings with a load (as applied by the cage spring). The advantage of ceramic over steel is thus limited to less than 60 mW, and remember these are the bearings where the power consumption is likely to be the greatest.
> 
> Since 60 mW less than 1/5000 of my power output the price difference seems a little tough to justify.
> 
> In the interests of science, however, I've just ordered a set of ceramic bearing jockey wheels and will test them for power conumption and report back.



Dam Mark you lost me.LOLS


----------



## Blue CheeseHead

Mark Kelly said:


> As someone stated on the first page of this thread, derailleur pulleys will make the largest dfference as their rotational speed is highest.
> 
> I recently tested some derailleur pulleys with plain (sleeve) bearings vs some stainless steel ball bearings and found that under typical conditions the steel ball beairngs in your derailleur consume about 60 mW at full speed - that figure is for two bearings with a load (as applied by the cage spring). The advantage of ceramic over steel is thus limited to less than 60 mW, and remember these are the bearings where the power consumption is likely to be the greatest.
> 
> Since 60 mW less than 1/5000 of my power output the price difference seems a little tough to justify.
> 
> In the interests of science, however, I've just ordered a set of ceramic bearing jockey wheels and will test them for power conumption and report back.


Yes, the pulleys rotate 2-3 times as much as the wheels, but the load imposed by the derailleur spring is minimal. The wheels experience much greater loads.


----------



## Aerod79

Mark, post your report! =p


----------



## tubeman

I just replaced the old beaarings in my ten year old campy record bottom bracket with ceramic grade 3 balls. I have to say that the difference was amazing. I did go to a full complement loose bearing set up vs the retainer ring set up that was original. I am not sure if it was worth the extra money (yet) but I have to honestly say the difference is noticeable. I think the largest part of it is the higher grade (rounder) bearings you get with ceramic. All the other claims (lighter weight, high temperature performance) don't really matter in a bike. But if you are riding a $5,000 bike why not put $200 in bearings?


----------



## Mark Kelly

Aerod79 said:


> Mark, post your report! =p


I made an error and used bearings with different kinds of seals in them so the initial results are invalid.

On re-testing with commercially available jockeys wheels, I found that there was no measureable difference between steel and ceramic bearings, they both cost about 1/4 of a watt. From the shape of the power loss / load curves it looks as though seal drag is a major component so this is to be expected.

For Bluecheesehead: yes the wheel bearings support a greater load but they are also larger. Since the friction in a rolling bearing is strongly dependent on the diameter of the rolling elements I think the idea that the derailleur pulleys make the largest difference is still feasible. Of course if you want to send me some wheel bearings I'll test them too.

Given the results I've had so far there's no way I'm paying for ceramic bearings to test, they're a total waste of money.


----------



## tubeman

Of course bearings are called bearings for a reason. They have to be tested under load. Any POS bearing will work well if it is not bearing anything. Wheels, cranks, or even pulleys must be tested under load. If you can't distinguish seal friction from bearing friction then your tested is flawed and invalid.


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## Mark Kelly

Umm, what part of "from the shape of the power loss / load curves it looks as though seal drag is a major component" leads you to think that I "can't distinguish seal friction from bearing friction".The radial load on derailleur pulley bearings is determined by the cage return spring so it is relatively easy to measure and to replicate. I tested the bearings at no load, half load and full load (approx 12N ).

What I can't distinguish is the power loss difference between ceramic and steel bearings under any of these load conditions because it is so small it isn't measurable. 

I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable with the money you just wasted on ceramic bearings but I didn't sell them to you.


----------



## tubeman

Not trying to be controversial, and the extra $50 I spent means nothing to me, but we do see a significant reduction in heat in the wheel bearings on the race cars. I understand that we are testing at much higher speeds and loads, but I would think the same principle would apply. Did you apply load assymetrically to the bearing while you tested it? Did you exaggerate the speed? I agree that in bicycle applications that ceramic bearings may not be cost effective but are you suggesting that there is no benefit in any application?


----------



## Mark Kelly

Not at all. I am suggesting that according to my results there is not enough difference in frictional loss to justify the use of ceramic bearings. They could still be justified on the grounds of longer life or greater robustness, or even general bling value. I use ceramic thrust ball bearings in some applications in audio equipment simply because I am convinced they sound better.

The way I loaded the bearings was to mount two of them on a common shaft, support one and load the other. Simple force balance says that the reaction force on the supported bearing must balance the down force on the unsupported bearing. The frictional loss values are for two bearings. The tests were run at 500 RPM which is equivalent to a cadence of 90 and a 55 tooth chainring on a Campy derailleur. (I run a 54 ring so it's pretty close).

I posted a more complete description on biketechreview.com


----------



## Tonis_t

Mark Kelly said:


> I use ceramic thrust ball bearings in some applications in audio equipment simply because I am convinced they sound better.


Totally off topic here but about being convinced that something sounds better...
http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and


----------



## MCF

The difference you are feeling is because you replaced a 10 year old bottom bracket. You would feel a noticeable improvement if you replaced a 10 year old BB with a normal non-ceramic bb. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between ceramic and non-ceramic. And my bike costs much more than $5000 and I use a $30 non ceramic bottom bracket.


----------



## tubeman

MCF said:


> The difference you are feeling is because you replaced a 10 year old bottom bracket. You would feel a noticeable improvement if you replaced a 10 year old BB with a normal non-ceramic bb. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between ceramic and non-ceramic. And my bike costs much more than $5000 and I use a $30 non ceramic bottom bracket.


I think you are correct about that. I also upgraded the configuration so that helps also. I agree that there is no way to feel a difference in the ceramic vs steel if you are using the same grade, etc. Any benefit will likely takes years to realize. Anyway, I decided to experiment so I will post the result around this time in 2020.


----------



## teckel

The same people who are so against ceramic bearings are the same people who are against aero frames, weels, helmet, body position, and the same people who I pass and lap on the bike leg. I guess they're convinced they're slow for other reasons. I really don't care why they believe they're slow, as long as they stay that way I'm happy. So I totally agree, ceramic bearing are crap, so are aero frames, wheels, helmet and body position. It's *only* about the engine sitting on the bike, and a 30 pound Huffy is just as fast as a 16 pound $10,000 bike.

Spoken from a multiple time top 5 overall triathlon finisher, so I obviously don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about and you should just ignore me and discount me as a ceramic bearing manufacture trying to sell useless product to the nieve. In no way do I want you to buy ceramic bearings as then you may actually be compeition instead of just a seemingly stationary object I need to steer my bike around to avoid.


----------



## Uncle Grumpy

teckel said:


> In no way do I want you to buy ceramic bearings as then you may actually be compeition instead of just a seemingly stationary object I need to steer my bike around to avoid.


Welcome aboard. I haven't seen trolling this good for days now.

You should try Di2. It kills everything.

Oh, and your spelling (or typing) is awesome. Weels? C'mon dude!

Grumps


----------



## jim_reed

Last year, I bought a set of HED Jet 4 Flamme Rouge wheels. As I found out after 5000 km, the Enduro Ceramic Bearings were junk, and HED was no longer using those bearings for their wheels. I received replacement bearings from HED, Enduro steel, and after less than 2000 km, they are going away. Wheels Manufacturing, or Ceramic Speed? My two LBS' are divided. I'm just looking for a set of bearings that will last a year.


----------



## ruger

Mark Kelly said:


> Not at all. I am suggesting that according to my results there is not enough difference in frictional loss to justify the use of ceramic bearings. They could still be justified on the grounds of longer life or greater robustness, or even general bling value. I use ceramic thrust ball bearings in some applications in audio equipment simply because I am convinced they sound better.
> 
> The way I loaded the bearings was to mount two of them on a common shaft, support one and load the other. Simple force balance says that the reaction force on the supported bearing must balance the down force on the unsupported bearing. The frictional loss values are for two bearings. The tests were run at 500 RPM which is equivalent to a cadence of 90 and a 55 tooth chainring on a Campy derailleur. (I run a 54 ring so it's pretty close).
> 
> I posted a more complete description on biketechreview.com


Mark,
Did you find the ball cage types made a difference? Was the plastic cage any benifit over the metalic crown or ribbon cage?


----------



## Mark Kelly

ruger said:


> Mark,
> Did you find the ball cage types made a difference? Was the plastic cage any benifit over the metalic crown or ribbon cage?


The tests I ran were on commercially available cartridge bearings which I did not disassemble, so no changes to the ball cages were measured.


----------



## DJBAMBINA

OK boys - had enough of people talking about stuff they don't know nothing about. 
I was the UK distributor for CeramicSpeed bearings up until recently ( so i have no vested interest in selling you them) - i fitted over a thousand bearings over 6 years and seen power data from existing and ceramic'd wheels/bb's and pulley wheels - and the difference "can be amazing".
Firstly tho' - ceramic bearings make a difference - well good ones do, if they are set up right and the tolerances are correct. 
How much difference is based on what you had in your bike beforehand. Good example is that guy with the Zipp wheels - their stock bearings are pretty darned good. Not as good as ceramics but you'd only notice a few watts difference. HED3 bearings on the other hand are so crap that you'd be saving 5-6 watts just with the front wheel . sometimes it doesn't matter what bearings you use - the bearing seats on some wheels aren't parallel so the bearings will never spin freely.. much like a BB housing that hasn't been faced properly.
Difference between ceramic manufacturers is mostly clear cut - Chinese stuff is shite - (Enduro/Zero'/Super Fly /Boca etc) - tolerances are generally poor ( seize up when fitted), run loose so break up - yep, i've seen pieces of bearings fall out of hubs. 
CeramicSpeed bearings are made by SKF and cost lots because they are made properly ( they supply SRAM Red groupsets FSA Red BB's & FFWD Wheel sets). Wheel Manufacturing - not sure but their reputation for good quality is on the line so they've probably done the right thing too. 
Full ceramics - total waste of time - only the chinese make them, plus if a ball is running on a hard surface - what does it matter what the surface is made of?
Ceramics aren't about weight loss - they're about low rolling resistance, better rigidity and greater acceleration, plus they should last longer if properly maintained.
Low rolling - i have wheels where the axles spin like a top ( yes, i did this with my campy steel ones once where i removed the cages and filled it with 3 in 1 oil - spun wheel but melted the hub on a really long fast ride) . I did Chris Hoy's Octalink BB for his La Paz World record attempt at the kilo. Spun like a top, super rigid so accelerated better, plus not full of sticky shimano grease.
Greater rigidity /acceleration - steel balls aren't the same size, so usually 3 or 4 are rolling around loose not doing anything (until the cups wear down and they they do all the work and the other 5-6 don't - BB failure ensues).
When you get 9 balls either side , all making contact, there is greater acceleration because the load is spread evenly, no damage is being inflicted on the poor BB cup faces, and as an aside - they last longer too - even wear on the faces.
Longer lasting - ceramics are 10 times harder - nice test that Ceramicspeed use to do is going into a bike shop - squeezing a steel ball in their vice until it breaks - do the same thing with a CS bearing and the vice broke.
Bottom line is - unless you're using a decent power meter you won't notice the difference. if you have an old bike or you don't maintain your bike regularly, you're wasting your time buying ceramics - they only work when they are maintained well. 
Ceramic grease - is only actually there to keep the faces lightly lubed so that in the event of moisture/rain the faces don't rust.
oh, and pleased don't ask why they don't use stainless steel races - SS has a higher % of aluminium so the races would be too soft.
Greatest return
BB and wheels - BB's are packed to within a micron of their lives with grease so will never spin. wheels - if set up right can make as much as 10 watts difference - yep.
Pulley wheels - minimal advantage but add to the improved drive chain efficiency so definitely worth doing too. 

Price - crikey - people spend mor emoney on posing outfits than ceramics - posing outfits don't make you faster ergo - forget ceramics - you're not serious enough. get your comb out and go home.

I had a mate who we upgraded his front Hed 3, Shimano Hollowtech BB and D-ace pulleys - he uses a SRM for time trialling and in back to back weeks - same course - he saw 15 watts improvement ( or less effort to go the same speed), over 10 miles ( 15km's to the U.S. readers). He averages 300 watts for this effort, so now he only averages 285 watts - improved by 42 seconds that evening.

i'll stop bleating now - but just remember Cancellara buys his bearings from CeramicSpeed, so does Mark Cavendish ( before they sponsored HTC), the Aussie, Kiwi and GB track squads use ceramics, if they're all using them, it means they make a difference. 
Good luck everyone. i look forward to your responses.
David


----------



## cxwrench

great...thanks for bringing this long dead thread back to life sounds like you've done the research and your post seems pretty much right on. 

i'd be interested to know what things you did when you set up the octalink bb for Sir Chris...what was involved in that?


----------



## DJBAMBINA

*Octalinks*

octalinks can be pulled apart.. not many no this.
i simply replaced the existing bearings with free rolling ceramics, removed the outer seal (which is only necessary if you're riding in the wet ), and occasionally flushing the grease i used to install the bearings, by using ptfe spray.

if you use Octalink BB's and you'd like this done i still have a bunch of bearings left over ( as you do when they pull the rug from under you.. nice bearings poor comms).

Thanks for the heads up.. i saw the thread - i didn't see the date it was last responded to. Still, so few people no the difference between good and bad bearings.

cheers

DJ


----------



## trailrunner68

Sounds like somebody just bought a lot of marketing BS hook, line, and sinker.

15W for magic bearings? I think I will rely on magic beans instead. When those don't work at least I can eat them.


----------



## DJBAMBINA

when you do the tests, then you can talk knowledgeably.... or as i said previously, there's no benefit from me talking them up, so why would i talk up the marketing BS? 
If you don't use them, thats your decision, but then you'll not understand that small changes like this, across the bike, body position, helmet as well as improved understanding of your body through training, as well as diet, and reduced life stress. all factors that can make you faster - or slower.
But don't mind me, I've only worked in the bike industry for 15 years, coached riders to 15 world, 19 European and over 30 National titles... i know nothing!

magic beans eh??? like the sound of those!


----------



## maxxevv

Seriously ... you've get to be smoking some strong stuff there ... 15W difference ? You barely touch 80W going at 40km/h for rolling resistance in tyres. (Schwalbe published diagrams of rolling resistance versus speed) And that is like 20-22% or total power output at that speed. Frictional drag in hub bearings is in the order of 200X smaller than that of tyres. I quote "Bicycling Science" by David Gordon Wilson. Which would be in the range of 0.4~0.5W at best. 

Unless you can show some published data, I'm not buying that ...


----------



## trailrunner68

DJBAMBINA said:


> when you do the tests, then you can talk knowledgeably.... or as i said previously, there's no benefit from me talking them up, so why would i talk up the marketing BS?
> If you don't use them, thats your decision, but then you'll not understand that small changes like this, across the bike, body position, helmet as well as improved understanding of your body through training, as well as diet, and reduced life stress. all factors that can make you faster - or slower.
> But don't mind me, I've only worked in the bike industry for 15 years, coached riders to 15 world, 19 European and over 30 National titles... i know nothing!


This, folks, is called an argument from authority. We are supposed to accept outrageously exaggerated claims because you coached somebody to a world title.

Here's a tip. The genius of Bernie Madoff was in promising people steady good but not spectacular returns. He knew that people would ask questions if the promises were too far from being realistic. You need to dial back your claims by a factor of ten to get to the same level of believability. It will still be BS, but it will be believable BS.


----------



## Kontact

I attempted to install a customer's Enduro BB that was set up for his Force crank. Long story short, Enduro engineers appear to be bozos who don't understand how SRAM cranks work. Buyer beware.


----------



## DaveKGold

Hi,

I had ceramic bearings in my crank, pulleys, and wheels. Since that time, I had to replace the rear wheel bearings, bottom bracket, and pulleys.

So while I think the ceramics do indeed ride smooth...they do not last forever. In terms of real performance benefit, unless you are racing like a pro, it probably won't help that much, and at some point you'll have to replace them.

Just my two cents.

Dave


----------



## qwezxc123

Enduro


----------



## qwezxc123

enduro


----------



## qwezxc123

ceramic speed


----------



## qwezxc123

is it worth the mbjgj


----------



## Ventruck

Midwest Playa said:


> I HOPED YOU HAD A GREAT THANKSGIVING WEEKEND AND I AM DOING THIS IN PURPOSE TO ANNOY YOU.LOL
> 
> HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO YOU :
> 
> 
> 
> GET OVER IT AND STICK TO THE TOPIC WE HAVE ANOTHER THREAD FOR COMPLAINS:thumbsup:


You realize he posted that over 3 years ago and likely "got over it"? Probably had 3 decent Thanksgiving weekends at that.


----------



## Kontact

Midwest Playa said:


> I HOPED YOU HAD A GREAT THANKSGIVING WEEKEND AND I AM DOING THIS IN PURPOSE TO ANNOY YOU.LOL
> 
> HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO YOU :
> 
> 
> 
> GET OVER IT AND STICK TO THE TOPIC WE HAVE ANOTHER THREAD FOR COMPLAINS:thumbsup:


Are you referring to the all caps, or the bad grammar and spelling?


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## evolux

Hoffman said:


> Smoothness of bearings by feel/spinning cranks is a crap measurement.
> 
> Hoffman


So. Why?


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## MMsRepBike

evolux said:


> So. Why?


Because they're not under load.


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## cxwrench

evolux said:


> So. Why?


Tell me how you manage to dig up a thread that no has bothered to comment on since November of '11, and then you post this gem? Are you always so eloquent?


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## evolux

cxwrench said:


> Tell me how you manage to dig up a thread that no has bothered to comment on since November of '11, and then you post this gem? Are you always so eloquent?


So. 
No cheating here. 
CeramicSpeed is up and running. 
And this thread, not closed, yet. 
Hope you're a moderator, at least. 


Inviato dal mio SM-N9005 utilizzando Tapatalk


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## evolux

MMsRepBike said:


> Because they're not under load.


Many thanks but... > in that video bearings are under grease, not under load. 

Inviato dal mio SM-N9005 utilizzando Tapatalk


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## Tachycardic

BLUF: If you have the coin to buy ceramics, buy them. Most of us don't really care what balls you're spinning with. They just don't make that big of a difference in the real world. If you beat me in a race, it's not because you're running ceramic bearings. It's because I didn't try hard enough.


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## evolux

Tachycardic said:


> BLUF: If you have the coin to buy ceramics, buy them. Most of us don't really care what balls you're spinning with. They just don't make that big of a difference in the real world. If you beat me in a race, it's not because you're running ceramic bearings. It's because I didn't try hard enough.


Thanks for wise reply. Think we can close the forum at moment. 

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## BikeLayne

I built a set of wheels last year. H+ Archtype rims, 105 Shimano Hubs and DT spokes. They have been completely reliable for the first year. In 3 years from now I will still be out there riding on the same wheels.. Could I have bought a set of wheels that would allow me to go on my usual loop a couple seconds faster. Maybe but then what would I gain if I got home 3 seconds faster. The weird thing is I would rather be out on the bike 3 seconds longer. 

Anyway for those folks that want to go shopping and buy some extra speed. I say go for it. When an old man on a steel bike rides past like your standing still make sure you say something about how your getting a flat.


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## Migen21

evolux said:


> Many thanks but... > in that video bearings are under grease, not under load.
> 
> Inviato dal mio SM-N9005 utilizzando Tapatalk


Um.. watch the video again, and listen to what the guy is actually saying.. the last minute or so is particularly relevant to MMsRepBike comments.


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