# Does the seat have to move forward?



## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I keep hiking the seat up 1 or 2 cm and now I like it where it is but I don't have knee over pedal. At this point, I can't move the seat any more forward because there's no more rail. Different seat? Different seat post? Stressing over nothing? What's the best VALUE option? Okay, now what's the most definitive option?

I could take it in for a re-fit, but I don't know if it will change my current predicament.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

generally yes...as you raise the saddle you'll have to move it forward to maintain the same saddle-to-bar measurement. if you can't move the saddle forward enough you need one of two things:
a post w/ less set-back 
or...
a frame that fits _you_ properly


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Okay so I panicked when you said "Find a frame that fits you" because that basically means this bike is scrap metal, so I ran downstairs and took a second look at my seat. The seat has this "ruler" on the rail that is printed in white, and to move the seat forward past that would be to violate the "max" line. But I did, and I moved it forward 1.5 cm according to my measuring tape (I'm assuming such an adjustment is considered "large" or "reckless" in bike fit parameters) and I have another 0.8-1 cm left on the rails, but now we are past the "max" setting. The seat still fits comfortably within the confines of the seatpost clamp and tightens well, will take it out for a ride tomorrow and see that it doesn't move, but now I am either exactly on KOP, veeerry close to it, or maybe even past it. Ideally, I would have to take a video camera and dissect a recording with Kinovea on my laptop, but I have a board exam on Tuesday.


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## gte105u (Aug 12, 2012)

jfd986 said:


> Okay so I panicked when you said "Find a frame that fits you" because that basically means this bike is scrap metal, so I ran downstairs and took a second look at my seat. The seat has this "ruler" on the rail that is printed in white, and to move the seat forward past that would be to violate the "max" line. But I did, and I moved it forward 1.5 cm according to my measuring tape (I'm assuming such an adjustment is considered "large" or "reckless" in bike fit parameters) and I have another 0.8-1 cm left on the rails, but now we are past the "max" setting. The seat still fits comfortably within the confines of the seatpost clamp and tightens well, will take it out for a ride tomorrow and see that it doesn't move, but now I am either exactly on KOP, veeerry close to it, or maybe even past it. Ideally, I would have to take a video camera and dissect a recording with Kinovea on my laptop, but I have a board exam on Tuesday.


You don't want to move the seat past the "max" portion on the rails. You could potentially be putting too much leverage on the front of the seat which could cause failure in a number of different places, especially if you came down hard on it. Its probably not going to hurt anything for a short period, but not a good idea to keep that way and you should look at addressing very soon.

As for what the previous poster said, the answer given is correct. Most bikes have a small setback on the stock seatpost. Assuming yours does, you can get one with less or no setback. This will move your seat forward. The other part he said is correct, it is likely unless you have very strange proportions that your frame is too small for your build. That is why you have the seat so high. But it does seem strange that a stock seat post would go high enough to render the saddle impossible to line up correctly. You may want to be sure your seatpost isn't higher than the max as well. Also is the seatpost stock to your bike?


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

This is the current setup:

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8154977091/" title="photo by Remytwo1, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8154977091_518be8afb5.jpg" width="500" height="374" alt="photo"></a>

Got a piece of electrical tape on the seat post to tell where it meets the seat tube. There's no "max" indicated on the seat post.

I'm 5'5 and the bike is 51 cm, I have tried 52 before and it hadn't fit me so didn't think this one would give me any problems when I test-rode it. 

I'm gonna take a big shot at this, will THIS solve my problem? Or at least help?

Race Face Ride XC Seatpost (375mm) - Mountain Equipment Co-op. Free Shipping Available


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Chill out. The marks on the saddle rails are meaningless. If they help you track your setup changes and dial in, great. Otherwise, ignore them.

Your seatpost has setback. So if you actually do run up against the curve in the saddle rails and still want to go forward, try a straight post. Or even flipping the post you have around.

The seat post in your link would help in the sense that it's a straight post. Seat posts come in diameters and you have to get it right, so this is something I usually just buy from my shop. Otherwise, at least check the diameter of your existing post before you buy the wrong thing.

Bear in mind also that just because bike sizes are named after measurements doesn't mean they follow any real standard. IME, things are especially inconsistent at the low end. The idea that a 51 from one brand could be reachier than the 52 from another is not particularly far fetched. In other words, bikes are sized like women's clothing.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Have you thought about a shorter stem?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Chill out. The marks on the saddle rails are meaningless. If they help you track your setup changes and dial in, great. Otherwise, ignore them.
> 
> this is not true. not all rails have a warning on the rail, but it is indeed a bad idea to clamp a rail at one end or the other, for exactly the reason the other poster stated. i've seen plenty of broken saddle rails of all materials. you can probably clamp past them a few mm, but i would never go all the way to one end or the other.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I had considered a shorter stem when the hands couldn't make it all the way to the handlebars, but then we moved the seat forward and that went away. Now that I've been moving the seat up, if this whole rail thing is indeed an issue then I might have to revisit dropping from whatever I have now (I think 90, I can't remember) to something shorter.

If I were to buy another seat post, I'd pop the seat post out and take it to MEC they're cheaper than my bike shop and they have their own repair shop so the guys there will take calipers to the seat post and I'll be able to select the right diameter.

Didn't think of flipping the seat post, that seems like a decent enough idea to try if I get desperate.

For now I think I'm a few mm past without jamming to the end of the rail, what do you guys think? I think it's still sturdy, as long as I fit the bike properly on Tuesday evening after my exam, before Wednesday's long ride.

So when I test rode this bike, how was I supposed to know that this was going to happen? What should I have done? I couldnt take the thing out for a half hour, and i wasnt as flexible then as i am now in terms of reach.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I took a 2 hour ride on a few bikes and had the LBS set them up on a trainer before the size was decided. If you get a shorter stem you can move the seat back and may have better front to back weight distribution and KOP.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

jfd986 said:


> So when I test rode this bike, how was I supposed to know that this was going to happen? What should I have done? I couldnt take the thing out for a half hour, and i wasnt as flexible then as i am now in terms of reach.


I'm confused. How is being more flexible making you want to put your saddle further forward?

Was the saddle too far back when you test rode? IMO, it's well within the bounds of test riding, especially if you're seriously considering a bike, to ask the shop to slide the saddle further forward or whatever else gives you a better idea of the bike. Some people even bring their own.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I meant flexible in terms of wanting the seat higher to get more extension and use my glutes more than my knees.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jfd986 said:


> I keep hiking the seat up 1 or 2 cm and now I like it where it is but I don't have knee over pedal. At this point, I can't move the seat any more forward because there's no more rail. Different seat? Different seat post? Stressing over nothing? What's the best VALUE option? Okay, now what's the most definitive option?
> 
> I could take it in for a re-fit, but I don't know if it will change my current predicament.


No offense OP, but your comments in this thread illustrate exactly why I don't generally subscribe to the "claim ownership of your fit" philosophy for many cyclists. You're clearly winging it here, with little regard to KOPS (+/-) or f/r weight distribution.

Since you mentioned a re-fit, I'm assuming you've been fitted to this bike. If so, IMO at this point you have little choice but to return to the shop and discuss your concerns with the fitter. Considering you've made some (in bike fit terms) very large changes to your initial fit, this may indicate that you're less than confident with the fitters abilities.

If that's the case, before investing in what (IMO) are highly questionable 'fixes' such as no-setback posts and/ or shorter stems, seek out a reputable fitter and opt for another standard fitting. You've made enough adjustments to warrant a 'start over'.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree with your assessment. I was gonna do it myself with motion-capture software to ensure:

1) knee extension angle less than 20 degrees

2) KOP with straight vertical line

3) appropriate elbow flexion while on the hoods

but if you think I should just take it into the lbs then that's what I'll do. 

When I was fitted for the bike, the fitter said that, and I quote:

"as you get more used to the bike, you're gonna wanna start moving the seat post up more"

Maybe he figured I'd do best with a lower seat, and now I should o to him and ask to be fitted to favor a more aggressive riding style?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jfd986 said:


> I agree with your assessment. I was gonna do it myself with motion-capture software to ensure:
> 
> 1) knee extension angle less than 20 degrees
> 
> ...


I won't go so far as to say saddle height would _never_ change under _any_ conditions, but IME barring a change in shoes/ pedal systems or the saddle itself, the least likely fit parameter to change would be saddle height. That given, if you understood your fitter correctly, I'd suggest asking _why_ next time you see them. 

Yes, I think you should find a reputable fitter and get a good standard fitting. We could walk you though the basics of the fit process, but (again, IMO) a fitter working one on one with you will better the odds of getting your fit right.

Just a BTW, there are two situations where I see employing a no-setback post. One is for TT/ tri set ups, because the rider wants to utilize aero bars and bias weight forward (compared to a road bike) - so, a perfectly acceptable use. The other situation is to compromise for a too slack seat tube angle (given the riders femur length). IMO, this is a 'make do' scenario where the (better) alternative is for the cyclist to get a road bike with geo that better suites their anatomy. 

I'm not suggesting that the above applies to you, but if it does, it's something that a knowledgeable fitter will recognize once adjustments are made to saddle fore/ aft. Another reason why working one on one with a fitter is the better way to go.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

jfd986 said:


> "as you get more used to the bike, you're gonna wanna start moving the seat post up more"


This makes no sense at all. Most beginners like an almost excessively high seat position because it feels good to their running- or walking muscles (knee angle around or even less than 15 degrees). As the rider develops his or her cycling muscles, the saddle generally comes down a bit for maximum power and to smooth the stroke at crank bottom dead center (knee angles around or even more than 25 degrees).

Not saying that one should necessarily emulate a pro's fit. But watch pros pedal their bikes on a video clip and see how huge amounts of power are made with saddles generally lower than those of most beginning recreational riders.


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## cirederic (Sep 26, 2021)

I had the same issue and no way to set saddle further forward.

But I have found a solution by reversing the seat post and expanded the hole screw so that the seat post clamp can still hold the saddle trail horizontally.

By doing this, I slid the saddle for at least 75cm.

Now I am still using 170cm crank arm and looking for 165cm then I can slide backward a little bit of my saddle.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cirederic said:


> I had the same issue and no way to set saddle further forward.
> 
> But I have found a solution by reversing the seat post and expanded the hole screw so that the seat post clamp can still hold the saddle trail horizontally.
> 
> ...


This setup is a recipe for broken rails.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Lombard said:


> This setup is a recipe for broken rails.


Yep. And that’s a LONG ride home... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

OK, Ciredric, first of all you are commenting on a post that was declared dead 9 years ago. Secondly, your idea is just plain dumb, because now you are placed too far forward of the pedals. If you have to resort to an idiotic setup like this, then your bike frame is just too large for you. Get rid of it, and buy a bike that actually fits your shorter size.

BTW, my "troll alarm" is ringing on this post.....


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> OK, Ciredric, first of all you are commenting on a post that was declared dead 9 years ago. Secondly, your idea is just plain dumb, because now you are placed too far forward of the pedals. If you have to resort to an idiotic setup like this, then your bike frame is just too large for you. Get rid of it, and buy a bike that actually fits your shorter size.
> 
> BTW, my "troll alarm" is ringing on this post.....


You really get off on being an internet tough guy, don't you? You need to seek help for your troll paranoia.


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## Benjamin Huffy (5 mo ago)

It is not a recipe for broken rails, it is better for the rails. Anyone should know that most of the weight on a seat is put on the wide part of the seat, so moving the seat all the way forwards so the wide part is closest to the clamp and post puts the least leverage and strain on all components. Also the science research shows that having a seat a little two low has a very small effect on power, but a seat a little high is much worse for power production, so moving your seat forward without raising it is at most just going to take getting used to and will have no dire penalty. The best thing you can learn is that internet forums are the worst place to get information no matter what you are looking for information on. Most of those spending a lot of time on them are just there to hear their own voices whether they actually know anything or not.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Benjamin Huffy said:


> The best thing you can learn is that internet forums are the worst place to get information no matter what you are looking for information on. Most of those spending a lot of time on them are just there to hear their own voices whether they actually know anything or not.


Irony is a dish best served ice cold... (did I get that quote wrong?)


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Benjamin Huffy said:


> It is not a recipe for broken rails, it is better for the rails. Anyone should know that most of the weight on a seat is put on the wide part of the seat, so moving the seat all the way forwards so the wide part is closest to the clamp and post puts the least leverage and strain on all components. Also the science research shows that having a seat a little two low has a very small effect on power, but a seat a little high is much worse for power production, so moving your seat forward without raising it is at most just going to take getting used to and will have no dire penalty. The best thing you can learn is that internet forums are the worst place to get information no matter what you are looking for information on. Most of those spending a lot of time on them are just there to hear their own voices whether they actually know anything or not.


Moving your saddle all the way forward is also a good recipe for knee problems.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Benjamin Huffy said:


> ...... The best thing you can learn is that internet forums are the worst place to get information no matter what you are looking for information on. Most of those spending a lot of time on them are just there to hear their own voices whether they actually know anything or not.


_Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt...._


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