# An Open Letter to Campagnolo - Embrocation Cycling Journal



## Guest (Jul 29, 2010)

An Open Letter to Campagnolo - Embrocation Cycling Journal

http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/campagnolo


----------



## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

I guess I should be a magazine editor. I have said similar things for years.

Except and this is a big disagreement with the writer of that article; Campy does not need to necessarily ditch the retro aspect of their business. In fact they need to pay a little more attention to it. I don't feel that it would hurt Campy to produce a 7 or 8 speed group; a NR with a cassette. There are lots of riders in the late 40's on up who have very little need or desire to replace their entire drive train with 10 or 11 speeds but do not really want to ride a cheap Shi(t)mano sub Tiagra hub.

I do agree that marketing is Campy's weird point. They have produced great products that at times they simply didn't market well. Case in point the flatbar shifters. I believe that if Campy had marketed those as a group with a group name they'd have sold well enough to still be made. 

Other times Campy were way ahead of a curve but the product was only about 85% percent correct. The Delta brakes were an example of that as were the Bullet shifters. They were the first shifter to index front and rear shifting. They work well are totally bullet proof and last for years but had issues with weight and not being usable with bar end. They are also a bear to install properly. I've ridden them on a commuter for years but MTB riders are always afraid of an accidental shift because of the twist (It isn't a problem as the action on them is quite stiff) The funky way that the Record OR chain-wheels were all held onto the crank by a lock-ring just like the cassette and bottom bracket is another example. These were innovative products that if they'd been made by Shi(t)mano would, with the possible exception of the shifters, still be produced


----------



## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

Fai Mao said:


> Except and this is a big disagreement with the writer of that article; Campy does not need to necessarily ditch the retro aspect of their business. In fact they need to pay a little more attention to it. I don't feel that it would hurt Campy to produce a 7 or 8 speed group; a NR with a cassette. There are lots of riders in the late 40's on up who have very little need or desire to replace their entire drive train with 10 or 11 speeds but do not really want to ride a cheap Shi(t)mano sub Tiagra hub.


Agreed, CF is great stuff but not everyone wants or can afford it. Lets see what the future holds for an all alloy Athena group. If it succeeds in the market then maybe someone will get that CF isn't all that.



Fai Mao said:


> I do agree that marketing is Campy's weird point. They have produced great products that at times they simply didn't market well. Case in point the flatbar shifters. I believe that if Campy had marketed those as a group with a group name they'd have sold well enough to still be made.


The Japanese made wonderful cars in the early years but couldn't market them until they started their American design studios. Americans aren't Europeans and just don't want the same thing. Give us what we want and we'll buy it.

I agree on the flat bar parts. Look at how Shimano and SRAM are grabbing up market share on the flat bar road market. Why couldn't Campy do the same. Their product is better.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

metanoize said:


> An Open Letter to Campagnolo - Embrocation Cycling Journal
> 
> http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/campagnolo


It's hard for me to distinguish Campagnolo International's problems versus Campagnolo USA's problems. Take the US pricing white elephant for example. To me, it is merely a Campy USA problem, not a Campy Intl problem. I am happy to buy from abroad, because:
1. I have all the necessary tools.
2. I have the confidence to install my own parts.
3. I have the confidence to be able to fix 95% of the problems that I encounter.
4. And more importantly, so far I have not had to deal with any warranty issues.
However, I do not know what percentage of Campy users are like me. Even on this forum there are many posts of unhappy buyers who require warranty service from Campy USA. 

And this brings up another "issue", which is that very few OEM complete bikes come with Campy anymore. And this correlates with fewer bike shops having favorable disposition to Campy. I agree with the article that Campy needs to step up involvement at the grassroots level, both by trying to convert younger riders to Campy and also in supporting bike shops. Their advertising can definitely be BETTER. 

Through all these discussions though, one thing that we should think about is what Campy's take on growth is. Do they actually care to try to grow another 10%? Another 50%? Or another 100%? And are we talking about Campy USA or Campy Intl?


----------



## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Good point. It's totally possible that they are satisfied with the size and profitability of their company and can carry on status quo indefinitely. I know it's some sort of sin in american business to not try to grow every freakin' business to the size and dominance of walmart. But this is not as common of a desire in other countries.


----------



## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

There is an entire generation of riders that have neever seen or worked on Campy and the new Campy NA guys know that. The released a program to dealers and for teams a few weeks ago so they are at least headed in the right direction.

On the 'new' chainring bolt thing. Cannondale has been doing that for a while with its ''no nuts'' system.

Starnut


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

pacificaslim said:


> Good point. It's totally possible that they are satisfied with the size and profitability of their company and can carry on status quo indefinitely. I know it's some sort of sin in american business to not try to grow every freakin' business to the size and dominance of walmart. But this is not as common of a desire in other countries.


I dunno... in a good, stable market, there's seemingly nothing wrong with being niche. 

But when things turn/the unexpected happens, or there's ever a need to invest heavily in expensive new tech/tooling, niche players sometimes get wiped out, or bought out. I think having a broader-based appeal is more conducive to long-term independence/survival. 

Ppl will say, "Well, Lamborghini and Ferrari seem to do fine being niche." Yeah, but Lamborghini is owned by Audi/VW and Ferrari is owned by Fiat, lol. 

I think Campy just gave up on trying to compete against the Shimano juggernaut, and decided that they were 'going to be where Shimano weren't' in order to survive. Then SRAM comes along years later and proves its possible to take Shimano on head-on and do well. Hmm.

Maybe it's bitter memories for them, or a lack of vision at the top, but Campy just doesn't seem to be that interested in expanding their share of the market, and they and their faithful have all the rationalizations in the world as to why that's okay. Just my 2.0 cents.


/ btw, I do like Campy. I just wish they were a bit bolder.
.


----------



## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I'm a campy guy, even my commuter is campy. I buy my stuff overseas because even a "bike shop buddy hook up deal" is considerably more than what I would pay at Ribble or PBK. Campy has a marketing problem in the US and it all goes back to OEM. ShimaNo and SRAM can drop the big bucks on support and advertising because they can convince joe biker with his Trek or Sbrand to upgrade his parts to DuraAce or Red. Campy is a greater commitment and very few bikes are OEM campy. Most of the campy riders I know start out with Chorus or Record and ride it until it's obsolete and beyond.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

You're absolutely right about the scaling of size/market share and survivability. One real risk here, I think, is increasing difficulty in finding a Campy-experienced shop. Not only for sales, but also for support and warranty issues. But maybe the technical support angle is already being satisfied by online remote service providers like Branford Bike. 

I think that right now Campy USA/NA is banking on a zero-growth strategy. Or maybe even NEGATIVE revenue growth but positive profit growth. At least I hope that they are, given the way they have set their pricing policy. Whether this is good or bad for Campy Intl remains to be seen. This kind of strategy is far from unique, just look at Harley-Davidson. Even with falling revenue, their profit has increased steadily. 

Compared with the Ferrari and Lamborghini comparison, I think that one key issue the car industry is facing is the very high cost of developing significantly different new technology, such as hybrids. That's why Ferrari and Lambo cannot survive on their own, and they have to have a large-revenue outfit like Fiat and VW/Audi to shore up the cost effectiveness of the technology investments.

Right now, if a magical new material were to come around to replace the role of carbon and alu, steel, Ti, then I expect that Campy would be in deep trouble whereas Shimano and SRAM may be able to absorb the costs. Either that, or increased regulation such as in the pharma industry.


----------



## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

Dear Campy-- Your product rocks. Why don't you flood the market so I can get it cheap?

Best regards....


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

orange_julius said:


> Compared with the Ferrari and Lamborghini comparison, I think that one key issue the car industry is facing is the very high cost of developing significantly different new technology, such as hybrids. That's why Ferrari and Lambo cannot survive on their own, and they have to have a large-revenue outfit like Fiat and VW/Audi to shore up the cost effectiveness of the technology investments.


Not saying that your general point is wrong, but just as a heads-up, Audi/VW didn't buy Lamborghini 'til the late '90s, and Fiat took a 50% stake in Ferrari back in _1969_. Obviously well before hybrids were ever an issue. 

What is true is that developing new car platforms is a pricey business, and it's hard for small companies to absorb those kind of costs/make those kind of investments unless absolutely everything they make sells well. And it's difficult to have that kind of winning steak forever and ever amen. 



orange_julius said:


> I think that right now Campy USA/NA is banking on a zero-growth strategy. Or maybe even NEGATIVE revenue growth but positive profit growth. At least I hope that they are, given the way they have set their pricing policy. Whether this is good or bad for Campy Intl remains to be seen. This kind of strategy is far from unique, just look at Harley-Davidson. Even with falling revenue, their profit has increased steadily.


I think that's probably an accurate assessment. And maybe in the short term, 'milking it in the US' will help Campy's bottom line. 

But in the long-term, what are they doing? Destroying the brand with most any LBS in one of the richest markets in the world. Ensuring that only hobbyists/DIYers who order from Euro online shops will use Campy in the US. Pretty much killing any hope of making any American converts or growing the market signficantly here.

Might work well for 'em in the short-term. But long-term, doesn't seem like the most brilliant move.

I only hope this strategy isn't borne out of desperation, i.e. things are worse at Campy than is commonly believed.
.


----------



## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

I THINK the reason that they have the Euro blow outs is not that they sell it out the back door locally but the Law. The EU has VERY strick price fixing laws. Either Campy or Campy USA actually has the US distributors sign a contract with a minimum price (according to the distributor my local shop spoke to recently when they decided to order from over seas for their personal rides), this is strictly illegal in Europe so the pricing is much more effected by the market itself. 

So I have my Campy Chorus 11 spd for WELL under a grand cause I bought from Europe and they offered free shipping. Whats funny (or sad depending on your view) is that there were even steeper discounts on Record and Super record, but for me Chorus has always been fine so I didn't see a need to spend more cash.

So it may be they don't care about the US market. It may also be that they are looking at the US market as a place to make up for some of they cash they lose in Europe.

I do know that if I could not order from Europe, when I did swap out my Chorus 10spd for something new, it would have been SRAM and not Campy that I bought.


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

badge118 said:


> I THINK the reason that they have the Euro blow outs is not that they sell it out the back door locally but the Law. The EU has VERY strick price fixing laws. Either Campy or Campy USA actually has the US distributors sign a contract with a minimum price (according to the distributor my local shop spoke to recently when they decided to order from over seas for their personal rides), this is strictly illegal in Europe so the pricing is much more effected by the market itself.
> 
> So I have my Campy Chorus 11 spd for WELL under a grand cause I bought from Europe and they offered free shipping. Whats funny (or sad depending on your view) is that there were even steeper discounts on Record and Super record, but for me Chorus has always been fine so I didn't see a need to spend more cash.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying about pricing laws. But you should distinguish between Campy Intl, Campy NA, and Campy Europe (if there is such a thing). If Campy Intl feels that they need to make more money, they can increase their wholesale price. That's how they make money anyway. 

From what you are saying, European Campy retailers are more willing and able to work with smaller margins, and that their distributor cannot stop them from doing this. Whereas Campy NA decided on much higher margins and insisted that the NA retailers comply with this (there being no legal impediment to this insistence in NA?). 

I'm not sure how this affects Campy Intl's bottom line, however.


----------



## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

orange_julius said:


> Compared with the Ferrari and Lamborghini comparison, I think that one key issue the car industry is facing is the very high cost of developing significantly different new technology, such as hybrids. That's why Ferrari and Lambo cannot survive on their own, and they have to have a large-revenue outfit like Fiat and VW/Audi to shore up the cost effectiveness of the technology investments.


Sorry but this was bothering me. Ferrari is turning profits for Fiat who is struggling. Even with all of Ferrari's development cost they turn healthy profits. This is because most of the technological advanced are done at the track. Be it in F1, GT2, their challenge car series, or the FXX and 599XX programs. These are are sponsored by companies or individual with way too much money. Thats why Ferrari and Porsche are so great because theres produces come from what they learn in a race environment, much like what Campy seem to do.

But you right about Lambo. It wouldn't surprise me if they are sold within a few years.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

SEK82089 said:


> But you right about Lambo. It wouldn't surprise me if they are sold within a few years.


You think Audi/VW will sell Lambo?

Wonder who the potential takers would be. :idea: 
.


----------



## SEK82089 (Dec 19, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> You think Audi/VW will sell Lambo?
> 
> Wonder who the potential takers would be. :idea:
> .


I could see them selling off Lambo, Bugatti, and maybe Bentley. The way it stand, Lambo only has 2 models with only one of them offering something the Audi/VW don't have. The Lambo Murciélago is the only thing that Audi/VW aren't replicating in one of their auto lines. And even then that car is due to be replace in the next year or so. 

The Lambo Gallardo is a flashy version of the Audi R8. They both use the same engine and now both come in convertible. I'm not 100% sure but I think the R8 is cheap by some margin and imo looks way better.

Those 3 manufactures just don't really seem to fit into Audi/VW family tree without some justification. The whole VW means "people's car" seems to point to a company producing vehicles that are attainable but everyone and those 3 companies produce cars that are not. Don't get me wrong, I love sports cars, but I think that If Lambo doesn't fit into VW's way of thinking. With costs of developing a new super car I think they will not stay.


----------



## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

I read that article and laughed out loud. Have you ever seen these embro guys? Talk about a bunch of insecure dudes that have to make themselves stick out by plastering their bodies with tattoos - it was comical. Here is what I don't get - SRAM came in and took on Shimano, not campy - at least here in the US. Sure there are some euro teams who ride SRAM whereas they used to ride Campy, but most of the teams were on Shimano (think saxo). As for the domestic scene, well, sure, SRAM has a lock there, but so too does Trek, Specialized and Dale and not everyone is on one of those. I think it's clear - Campy will never, ever make a hard play here in the US. That's fine by me, but it does get frustrating that shops don't know the brand, but then again they don't know the first thing on bikes either.

I can say this, I have a shimano bike, I've used SRAM and I can say without hesitation campy chorus kills em all. I'm not saying it will make you faster, but I am saying it's better.


----------



## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

What do you expect from a bunch of relocated NYC hipsters


----------



## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> Good point. It's totally possible that they are satisfied with the size and profitability of their company and can carry on status quo indefinitely. I know it's some sort of sin in american business to not try to grow every freakin' business to the size and dominance of walmart. But this is not as common of a desire in other countries.


Exactly, one only needs to look at Harely Davidson (circa 1980, 1981 with the AMF buyout), and GM or Toyota USA for that matter to realize that sometimes companies should be happy with ensuring they do what they do best (what got them to that point) rather than trying to conquer the world. I'd prefer to run a smaller, leaner, profitable company than an overgrown gorilla that is a slave to creditors, shareholders, etc.


----------



## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

Mr. Scary said:


> rather than trying to conquer the world. I'd prefer to run a smaller, leaner, profitable company than an overgrown gorilla that is a slave to creditors, shareholders, etc.


By overgrown you mean like Shimano.


----------



## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

GMs problems were self inflicted and all product quality based. I don't see Campagnlo as having that problem


----------



## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

badge118 said:


> I THINK the reason that they have the Euro blow outs is not that they sell it out the back door locally but the Law. The EU has VERY strick price fixing laws. Either Campy or Campy USA actually has the US distributors sign a contract with a minimum price (according to the distributor my local shop spoke to recently when they decided to order from over seas for their personal rides), this is strictly illegal in Europe so the pricing is much more effected by the market itself.
> 
> So I have my Campy Chorus 11 spd for WELL under a grand cause I bought from Europe and they offered free shipping. Whats funny (or sad depending on your view) is that there were even steeper discounts on Record and Super record, but for me Chorus has always been fine so I didn't see a need to spend more cash.
> 
> ...


There is another factor that no one seems to comment on. Campag is European so if you buy it anywhere in the EU there is no duty on it. If it is imported into the US there is import duty to pay if it is a commercial import. 
For some reason you are exempt if it is a personal import, although if I buy an old s/h Record crank from the US I pay 18% VAT on it when it arrives in the UK!! Go figure.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Mr. Campagnolo replies:

http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/a-response-letter-from-mr-campangolo


----------



## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

I wish they'd reply here.

Honestly, I think most of the posters on this form are better informed than many of the writers in cycling journals


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Fai Mao said:


> I wish they'd reply here.
> 
> Honestly, I think most of the posters on this form are better informed than many of the writers in cycling journals


Interesting that they actually bothered to reply, and to be honest the answers are very measured and not very informative. If only they would post here, that would be great.


----------



## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

My favorite part:

"I am particularly pleased to state that our 2011 new range does definitely contain tremendous changes.

I only have two ways to convince you and other riders to confirm or regenerate your enthusiasm for Campy: rather than go through a long and detailed technical description of the new features and weights, I will simply invite you to ride the new products.

Please just try one of our 2011 groupsets!
Whatever you will choose, from “Veloce” up to “Super Record”, you will immediately feel the goal we pursued in developing our new groupsets, i.e. to outperform the current benchmarks today available in the market in terms of braking, and front and rear shifting performances."

Really? If anyone can tell the difference between 2010, and 2011 record groups I'd be baffled. It does not even make sense. Alloy fixing bolt on the rear mech, slightly different cable interface on the front. Oh it must be the Red graphics, improves shifting by 23%! How they could even consider calling them "new" is beyond me. They are mid product cycle updates and suggesting anything beyond that is idiotic. Just like they say the carbon bits on Record and S. Record improve stiffness and shifting. Can you tell the difference between a Record and Chorus front derailleur? I love campy products I really do, but the one thing that turns me off is the amount of complete BS marketing drivel they come up with. Stop treating your customers like idiots because generally were not, and if anything I'd say campy riders tend to be more technically inclined than others. I did not buy a SR front derailleur because it's "stiffer" than chorus, I bought it because it looks better and that was worth it to me. So lets be honest here campy. You're getting you ass handed to you by Shimano and Sram, and there are basically a fixed number of people who are going to buy your stuff. So you've come up with some new graphics and stupid little updates that don't make any real difference whatsoever after only two years in the hopes that those who have already bought into 11 speed, will get the "new" groupsets. It's a lame attempt to sell more product, and it will probably work.


----------



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

May be code for electronic shifting for 2011.





dcl10 said:


> My favorite part:
> 
> "I am particularly pleased to state that our 2011 new range does definitely contain tremendous changes.
> 
> ...


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

orange_julius said:


> Interesting that they actually bothered to reply, and to be honest the answers are very measured and not very informative. If only they would post here, that would be great.


+1. Campy's response seemed very 'artful dodger-y'.  

Even the part (quoted below) where they sorta kinda acknowledge their awful North American dealer pricing was pretty limp, if you parse it. They make no firm commitment to attack the problem directly... they may just be talking about having their advertising highlight how important the dealer is to 'the Campy experience.' 

Well, goooood luck with that. Obviously, if the pricing continues to be this out-of-whack for your friendly neighborhood LBS vs the Euro online shops, very few ppl indeed will care how much Campy 'highlights' the contribution of the dealer. :nonod:

_I then would like to come to some of your very intelligent and proper considerations on the route-to-market. To get the control of our Distribution is world-wide and one of our major targets: the way our products today sometimes come to the market, bypassing the Dealers, their role and their added value to Campy is a cash-flow killer, not at all a positive aspect. The shortcut price flow, whilst protecting naturally the final consumer in terms of product cost, generates a price battle along the distribution chain, so that the immediate undisputed price advantage for the consumer risks to set aside both the competence of the Dealers in conveying our product to the market and the technological content of the product itself.

Through several activities that you will see soon (also in the US) we will give more and more importance to the Dealers, highlighting their competence, their ability to correctly address the rider’s choice, their importance to provide the after sales service.​_


----------

