# looking over your shoulder while staying straight



## gutfiddle (Apr 27, 2006)

to make sure the coast is clear to cross lanes of traffic into the left turning lane can be tricky, I've learned it's safer to sometimes stop and let the cagers clear out and then change lanes. Here's some bonus footage from my stepson and I'z morning commute in Central Florida this am.

hard to bike past the ice cream shop on the way home









I truly do heart my bike









get back in the yard you cant go with us?









spanish moss in live oaks









downtown Mulberry









crossing the Alafia River









Old Ford?









not much left to graze here...









train delivering the phosphate









the end


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Nice pics. I especially like the last one of the dog. It's nice to see people dreed in shorts enjoying the obvious warm weather. It's just starting to get cold here in N. Ohio.


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## Slim Again Soon (Oct 25, 2005)

*All this...*

... just to show off your handsome ride? 

That's one clean Surly. I like the stem, the bars, the tape and the saddle — the whole deal.

And your dog should be in pictures — the little heartbreaker!

What kind of hound?


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## gutfiddle (Apr 27, 2006)

Ellie Mae is a blue tick hounddog boowwwwwww!

thanks for the kind words about the Surly, she's my daily driver and gets me where i need to be in comfort.


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## shimano4 (Aug 21, 2008)

Get a side mirror, Pal..!


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## gutfiddle (Apr 27, 2006)

shimano4 said:


> Get a side mirror, Pal..!


no way i'd trust a little mirror to cross lanes of traffic w/out looking back to make sure the coast was clear.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Thinking of a younger Pamela Anderson keeps me straight.

Touching my chin to my shoulder and shifting my weight to my left hand keeps me from swerving left. No mirror for me either.


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## thinkcooper (Jan 5, 2005)

bigbill said:


> Touching my chin to my shoulder and shifting my weight to my left hand keeps me from swerving left.


This technique works, prevents your upper body from twisting to the left and turning the bars into traffic. :thumbsup:


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

I look under my arm. That way when I hit something I'm already halfway into a tuck-and-roll.


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## gutfiddle (Apr 27, 2006)

bigbill said:


> Thinking of a younger Pamela Anderson keeps me straight.
> 
> Touching my chin to my shoulder and shifting my weight to my left hand keeps me from swerving left. No mirror for me either.


All solid advice. the weight on the left hand was the key, i'd been opening up my left shoulder and only putting weight on my right hand thus veering to the left. The mental image of a nubile Pamela helps me stay straight aswell.


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## Slim Again Soon (Oct 25, 2005)

*Bluetick hounds*

Blueticks are cool dogs. I had one once.

He was all feet when he was a pup.


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## gutfiddle (Apr 27, 2006)

Slim Again said:


> Blueticks are cool dogs. I had one once.
> 
> He was all feet when he was a pup.


she's all feet and ears...her ma and pa are great deer dogs, hopefully she will make a good hawgdog, she trails pig ears all over the yard already.










she already gives my catahoula a run for her money


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Love the dawg!


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## kykr13 (Apr 12, 2008)

Hey! I've got the same gloves!  

Nice lookin' hound.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Here's a trick I read to avoid swerving when you look back -- place your hands near the center of your handlebar before looking. It works, but I have trouble with this technique on my bikes because I have computers, lights that get in the way. Might work for you if you move the bell.


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## shimano4 (Aug 21, 2008)

gutfiddle said:


> no way i'd trust a little mirror to cross lanes of traffic w/out looking back to make sure the coast was clear.


A lot of road biker has the wrong concept that having side mirror and there is no need to turn yr head to double check the traffic when making major lane change.

U still need to turn yr head but u can do it in a shorter time cos u just double comfirm what u perceive from yr mirror. Without a side mirror, the time I need to look back is must longer. That is where, wobbling and plenty of things start to happen.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Here's a better one:

Your bike will generally go wherever you're looking. If you look over your left shoulder, your bike will likely drift left. To counter this, as you look back, push forward on the bars with your right hand. Only a very slight, gentle push is enough.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

Mr. Versatile said:


> Your bike will generally go wherever you're looking. If you look over your left shoulder, your bike will likely drift left. To counter this, as you look back, push forward on the bars with your right hand. Only a very slight, gentle push is enough.


You got that backward? (Hey, it happens often on this site.)


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

No, he's got it right. Pushing forward on the bars with right hand will turn the bike towards the right. With the right touch it'll just counteract the weight shift that is causing the bike to drift left and the bike will remain upright and track straight ahead.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> No, he's got it right. Pushing forward on the bars with right hand will turn the bike towards the right. With the right touch it'll just counteract the weight shift that is causing the bike to drift left and the bike will remain upright and track straight ahead.


When I push forward on the right, I definitely turn left (right before falling over).


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Then you must be living in a parallel universe with different laws of physics. 

Go take a ride and try it. Or just go out to the garage or wherever you keep your bike: get it to balance briefly without touching anything, push forward on the right side of the handlebar, and get ready to catch it on the right side because that'll be the way it's going to fall. The same thing happens when you're riding.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> push forward on the right side of the handlebar, and get ready to catch it on the right side because that'll be the way it's going to fall. The same thing happens when you're riding.


Yes, it will fall to the right, But if you're rolling, the bike will turn to the left as it's falling.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

How about this: if you are correct, I will make another donation to the Tara Llanes fund. If I am correct, you will do so. Deal? 

http://www.tarallanesroadtorecovery.com/

Pushing forward on the bar on the side you wish to turn to is the way that two wheel vehicles are steered. Perhaps at very, very slow speeds you can physically turn the bars like you would a steering wheel on a car and turn left to go left. But once rolling at over a few miles per hour, counter-steering is the way we turn. We all do it, unconsciously.

Wilbur Wright, from back in the day:

"I have asked dozens of bicycle riders how they turn to the left. I have never found a single person who stated all the facts correctly when first asked. They almost invariably said that to turn to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made a turn to the left. But on further questioning them, some would agree that they first turned the handlebar a little to the right, and then as the machine inclined to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made the circle, inclining inward."

The only reason the turn towards the direction of travel is needed is to keep us from completely falling over on to our side. In other words, we turn the bars in the opposite direction to initiate a lean which begins us turning and then we steer into the direction of the turn in order to put a force that wants to stand the bike up and make us turn the other way, and this keeps the bike balanced in a lean instead of falling all the way over sideways.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> The only reason the turn towards the direction of travel is needed is to keep us from completely falling over on to our side. In other words, we turn the bars in the opposite direction to initiate a lean which begins us turning and then we steer into the direction of the turn in order to put a force that wants to stand the bike up and make us turn the other way, and this keeps the bike balanced in a lean instead of falling all the way over sideways.


Well, I know all of that and have since I was a kid. Maybe that's why I said if you simply turn the bars you will fall over. To avoid that, you also have to shift your weight and then turn the bars the other way, but the post I responded to didn't call for that.

I don't think we're making any progress here.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

It was suggested that to counter the drift to the left while looking over one's shoulder, that one should push forward on the bars with his right hand. You said this was backwards. It is not.

You then claimed that when you push forward on the bars with your right hand, you turn to the left. I'm quite convinced that if you try it, while travelling at any sort of decent speed, you absolutely will not turn to the left at all. Tara will appreciate your donation.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

sometimerider said:


> Yes, it will fall to the right, But if you're rolling, the bike will turn to the left as it's falling.


You're correct, the bike WILL turn left, but only for an instant. If you're rolling at 10mph + when you turn the handlebars to the left, your bike will actually steer to the right. Naturally the reverse is true to turn in the opposite direction. Single track vehicles must lean in order to turn. There are two ways this happens. One is by shifting body weight, the other is by counter steering. Counter steering is far more efficient than just weight shifting.

Counter steering means turning the bars the opposite way of the direction you want to go. Let's say you're riding down a quiet street at ~15mph. There's a sharp turn up ahead that goes to the left. As you approach the turn, you turn the bars to the right to make the left hand turn. What happens is (assuming the bike is vertical) the front wheel turns right and is "driven" out from under the bike. As this happens, the bike will immediately (fall) to the left. Your hand/eye coordination will automatically correct to keep the bike from falling to the ground. Because the bike is now leaning to the left, you'll automatically be turning to the left.

Whew! That's a lot to think about. Try this - "_push left to go left / push right to go right.

For a demonstration, and probably a better explanation than I've provided, take a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc_ 

Now I have a favor to ask. Please don't believe me on this. Prove that I'm wrong by doing this: go to an empty parking lot, get some speed up - maybe 15/16 mph - then gently push forward on the right handlebar. Which way did the bike turn? Do the same thing only push forward on the left bar? Which way did you go? If you need to clarify this for yourself, try riding with one hand. Push forward on the bar and watch what happens.

Report back here with the answers.


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## sometimerider (Sep 21, 2007)

Mr. Versatile said:


> You're correct, the bike WILL turn left, but only for an instant. If you're rolling at 10mph + when you turn the handlebars to the left, your bike will actually steer to the right.


Not if that is all you do. You will simply fall over to the right.



> For a demonstration, and probably a better explanation than I've provided, take a look at this
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc[/I]


Good video, but nothing new to me.



> Now I have a favor to ask. Please don't believe me on this. Prove that I'm wrong by doing this: go to an empty parking lot, get some speed up - maybe 15/16 mph - then gently push forward on the right handlebar. Which way did the bike turn? Do the same thing only push forward on the left bar? Which way did you go? If you need to clarify this for yourself, try riding with one hand. Push forward on the bar and watch what happens.


I guess I haven't been clear. I know about counter-steering. But if all you do is push the right handlebar, you will fall over. To successfully make a turn, as soon as your lean to the right starts, you must immediately turn to the right. I'm not going to do your experiment (as described) - as I prefer to stay upright.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

You're being silly. All we were talking about here is the very slight correction needed to keep from drifting left when looking over one's left shoulder. Slight forward pressure on the right handlebar, to counteract any weight change to the left caused by looking over the shoulder, will keep the bike travelling forward. Most of us do it unconsciously. You will not fall over.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

After watching the video you said it was nothing new to you You already knew it. If that's the case, why are you still arguing against it?

I've had my say. I'm done with this thread.


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