# Toe in or toe out with cleats?



## novetan (Oct 4, 2012)

I just bought a Shimano SM-SH11 cleats that have 6 degree free play.

Though the cleats has free play pointing inwards or outwards either direction by 3 degree, I like to centralised the cleats for a start. Do we toe in, toe out or with toe pointing towards center during cycling?

Note: I'm not refering the position of ball


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Which ever your biomechanics dictate.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

I've always been told to find your proper placement you must sit on a counter and let your legs dangle off the edge. That natural position in which your feet dangle will tell you how to angle the shoes, toes in or out. Too far in either direction could result in knee pain.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Yes to all the above and: I find that seated, I pedal a bit knock-kneed and standing with the knees spread a bit more for the rocking top tube. The first angles my feet inward a bit compared to the latter angling them more outward. Pedal/cleat float helps accommodates the range needed.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

Hooben said:


> I've always been told to find your proper placement you must sit on a counter and let your legs dangle off the edge. That natural position in which your feet dangle will tell you how to angle the shoes, toes in or out. Too far in either direction could result in knee pain.


I usually suggest walking normally. With wet feet on a dry surface. If you do it parallel to an expansion crack, on foot on either side, it's easy to get a pretty good idea for a starting place. For each foot individually.

That gets at the dynamic process of feet in motion a bit more directly, imo.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

The only opinion that really matters is yours. They're your feet and legs. And you need to position your cleats to fit your body, not to match some theoretical optimum, or the opinions of a cycling forum.

Start with them straight. Ride a little. Make adjustments as necessary.


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## x37 (Jan 8, 2013)

If you have access to Retül fitting somewhere in your area they can analyze your pedal stroke with cameras and their software. It's a cool experience and gives you objective and concrete information on how turn the cranks. The path that your knee moves in throughout the stroke is traced on-screen. It's definitely worth checking out...


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Hooben said:


> I've always been told to find your proper placement you must sit on a counter and let your legs dangle off the edge.


I know this gets repeated over and over by copy-and-paste writers, but it's basically bunk. On a bike (and especially so while exerting significant force on the pedals), your feet position themselves very differently than they do with your legs dangling off the edge of a counter or walking down a concrete sidewalk. As said, observe your feet while you ride and you'll see where they want to be. Keep in mind that left and right may be different.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

*A factor that no one ever addresses*

For more years than I can remember, my left foot has always toed-out more than my right. It was this was while I was walking, and even felt better while cycling. So natually, I toed my left foot out on the cleat adjustment. For years I had no idea where the difference originated, but I also felt that it allowed my left arch to collapse easier upon being weighted than my right foot.I've worn rigid orthotics for years to control this, but only use them when cycling or cross-country skiing. At some point a few years ago, it was determined that the offset originated in my hip. And because I had more muscle tightness at times of long rides, I felt it was important to put more emphasis on stretching this leg to help with that. It helped at times, but on the longer rides, 150+ miles, it still gave me problems. In fact, on a 30 mile record setting ride across Wisconsin last August, my leg cramped up so bad I was riding the bike at an angle for tha last 40 miles. Nothing I did could release the cramp, and the pain was incredible for each pedal stroke.

Okay, I'm FINALLY getting to my point!
Fast forward about 4 months. On December 23, I slipped on ice and broke my left femur. The result was a total hip replacement. After the surgery, I noticed that my left leg no longer toed out. After speaking with the surgeon about this, I learned that the toing out was a result of having had arthritis in this hip. It's common for this to occur over time, as the proper position produces pain and doesn't feel "right". Now, I aparently was affected with this changed position for at least 25 years, more than half my life. I unconsciously compensated for it, and even tried to address it with stretching. But for those 25+ years, I never knew that the misaligment was actually caused by 25+ years of slowly progressing arthritis. 

It will be interesting as I rehab from this surgery, and move into a new cycling season. I might find that my left left, which has always felt less stable and weaker (and showed visibly when comparing legs muscles), will now have the ability to grow stronger and work harder than ever before.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

wim said:


> I know this gets repeated over and over by copy-and-paste writers, but it's basically bunk. On a bike (and especially so while exerting significant force on the pedals), your feet position themselves very differently than they do with your legs dangling off the edge of a counter or walking down a concrete sidewalk. As said, observe your feet while you ride and you'll see where they want to be. Keep in mind that left and right may be different.


I will say I have seen people ride and move their feet all over the place. Not much help there, if the person does not already have a pretty stable foot position.

Note I said the walking angles work as a starting place, not as a final perfect positioning. That said, I've never had a complaint from people I helped using this method, and there have been a few over the past 25 years or so.

If you want to use on bike angles, I suggest looking at the shoes worn while riding flats (most people only have to worry about the angle when they first switch from flats to clipless.) There will be lines from the pedals, dirt lines, wear lines, something. Those will show the dominant angle a person has for the foot/pedal interface. That also makes for a good starting place.

If there is a worn surface, showing a range of angles, that indicates foot movement during pedaling, and so requires either a lot of float or better technique.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

wim said:


> I know this gets repeated over and over by copy-and-paste writers,


I'm not a copy and paste writer at all, that's just what all the cyclist I know do. To say it's bunk is a stretch. I'm merely trying to get the point across that you must find your normal foot position. This can probably be done in many ways. Failure to do so can result in knee pain.


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## nolight (Oct 12, 2012)

Toe in or center seem more right than toe out. Was told that pros toe in more to favor leg position closer to top tube for more aerodynamic position.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

nolight said:


> Toe in or center seem more right than toe out. Was told that pros toe in more to favor leg position closer to top tube for more aerodynamic position.


I certainly wouldn't follow that advice. Some of the old cycling books used to suggest this, but today we know that it's best to make the bike fit the ride than force the rider to fit the bike and cause an injury that would shorten a career.


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## TheSlug74 (Aug 20, 2012)

[CAMEL] TOES? They appear to be IN at the moment....but who knows....Fashion changes all the time....


View attachment 275228


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