# Loosing the lawyer tabs



## boblikesbikes (Sep 28, 2007)

I have done this with every bike I have owned, but the fork on my 595 has carbon dropouts. I'm assuming no ill effects, but wanted to see if there was any experience on doing this out there in RBR-land.


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

Why??


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## boblikesbikes (Sep 28, 2007)

If you have ever gotten a front wheel change from Mavic neutral service in a crit, you would know why....


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

boblikesbikes said:


> If you have ever gotten a front wheel change from Mavic neutral service in a crit, you would know why....


Cool, I didn't even think of that. Sorry I can't help, as I have no experience with full carbon dropouts.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

boblikesbikes said:


> If you have ever gotten a front wheel change from Mavic neutral service in a crit, you would know why....



Again, why? In a crit, you have a free lap---- or, plenty of time. Does it really take you that long to change a front wheel?


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## texass4 (Oct 13, 2005)

filtersweep said:


> Again, why? In a crit, you have a free lap---- or, plenty of time. Does it really take you that long to change a front wheel?


Agreed. It's really not THAT hard to pop a wheel out of the fork. 

This topic gets tossed around from time to time and I still don't get it. I would be much more worried about damaging my dropouts. Good luck getting warranty repair if you file them down.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

texass4 said:


> Agreed. It's really not THAT hard to pop a wheel out of the fork.
> 
> This topic gets tossed around from time to time and I still don't get it. I would be much more worried about damaging my dropouts. Good luck getting warranty repair if you file them down.


What damage to dropouts? The lawyer tabs are on the end of a fiber run, so shortening those fibers, then covering them with a clear coat isn't going to do anything to harm them.
Does finishing up a fresh cut CF steerer to remove burrs and edges damage the steerer? No.

Why keep lawyer tabs? They serve zero purpose.


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## chas (Aug 10, 2006)

Forrest Root said:


> Why keep lawyer tabs? They serve zero purpose.


Au contraire... they keep the lawyers happy.  

They also keep the warranty on your fork intact. 

*[email protected]*


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

boblikesbikes said:


> I have done this with every bike I have owned, but the fork on my 595 has carbon dropouts. I'm assuming no ill effects, but wanted to see if there was any experience on doing this out there in RBR-land.


What do they do when you set them loose?


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## chas (Aug 10, 2006)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> What do they do when you set them loose?


Duh...they rave!

P.S. Who called the grammar police?


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## heavydutytrek (Mar 9, 2008)

Someone explain what "lawyer" tabs are?


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## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

heavydutytrek said:


> Someone explain what "lawyer" tabs are?


http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_l.html

For reference, that is the first hit from a google search. It amazes me sometimes that people go through the trouble of posting, but won't even do a quick search online first. It takes pretty much the same amount of effort, and with the latter you get an immediate answer most of the time.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts..*

I rode my 585 for portions of two seasons and left the tabs in place, but finally got tired of them and filed them off this spring. Although is may void the warranty, it's worth the risk to me. If the fork fails anywhere except the dropouts, it would be hard for LOOK to argue that that the failure was due to my modification. Either way, a fork failure is likely to hurt.


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## boblikesbikes (Sep 28, 2007)

filtersweep said:


> Again, why? In a crit, you have a free lap---- or, plenty of time. Does it really take you that long to change a front wheel?



OK, in a 1K crit lap, you DON'T have plenty of time - plus, the nice Mavic Neutral Service guys that have to struggle with your wheel change because you neglected to file off your lawyer tabs will scream at you like the beeotch that you are, 'cause they have better things to do than mess around with your silly quick release. (it didn't happen to me, but I saw it happen to a friend)

BTW, as the great, late Mr. Brown points out, those lawyer tabs kind of defeat the purpose of a "quick release". Forrest is correct - they serve no function other than to cover the butts of the manufacturers from litigious dopes that are incapable of mastering the complex closing procedure required of a quick release.

I appreciate Chas' input - I'm well aware that warranties would be voided. I just wanted some assurance that functionality would not be compromised from those that may have already done it.

And no, I probably won't be taking my 595 to any cat 3/4 crits in the near future, but anyone that travels with their bike and is constantly taking the front wheel off and replacing it knows what a hassle it is to keep adjusting the QR.

I love the fact that the Star fork on my C-50 is sans lips. That's so pro. At least the lawyers aren't running things at Colnago (yet).


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## boblikesbikes (Sep 28, 2007)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> What do they do when you set them loose?



Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, I tried to edit my post, but couldn't change the title.


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

*Tabs? What Tabs*

The lawyer tab removal voiding the warranty is a veiled threat from LOOK. Lawyer tabs are there to _protect the manufacturer _from suits file by morons who don't know how to operate a QR. My lawyer, who I ride with several times a week, said the if a fork failed under warranty and LOOK or any other manufacturer denied responsibility or claims against them because someone had removed the lawyer tabs, he'd have them for breakfast. So would any other competent attorney. There's no way that the removal of a couple grams of carbon or aluminum could let the manufacturer off the hook for a faulty product that's under warranty. As the risk of sounding elitist, I don't know why we even have to deal with this. I propose a bill that requires lawyer tabs on any bike with a kickstand.:thumbsup: Case closed


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## chas (Aug 10, 2006)

oily666 said:


> The lawyer tab removal voiding the warranty is a veiled threat from LOOK. Lawyer tabs are there to _protect the manufacturer _from suits file by morons who don't know how to operate a QR. My lawyer, who I ride with several times a week, said the if a fork failed under warranty and LOOK or any other manufacturer denied responsibility or claims against them because someone had removed the lawyer tabs, he'd have them for breakfast. So would any other competent attorney. There's no way that the removal of a couple grams of carbon or aluminum could let the manufacturer off the hook for a faulty product that's under warranty. As the risk of sounding elitist, I don't know why we even have to deal with this. I propose a bill that requires lawyer tabs on any bike with a kickstand.:thumbsup: Case closed


"Lawyer tabs" were introduced as a response to several lawsuits against bicycle manufacturers from people who did not fasten their quick releases properly and were injured as a result. To answer your question, we have to deal with this now because lawyers went after the bicycle manufacturers involved, hence the name. From the Sheldon Brown link above: _Since this extra stuff was installed as a defense against frivolous lawsuits by ambulance-chasing shysters, the extra bumps are sometimes known as "lawyer lips" or "lawyer tabs."_

As a result of this, manufacturers have to do what they can to protect themselves - they'd be stupid if they didn't. They also have to include clauses in their warranties notifying the user that any modifications to their product may void the warranty. You've seen people drill out things like crank arms and chainrings right? That's just a few grams of material gone too, but there's no way I would ride stuff like that because I've seen what happens to a leg when a chainring goes into it. 

Now, obviously dropout tabs don't contribute to the structural integrity of a fork, so if the fork broke at the crown or blade, one would have a tough time arguing in court that the failure was caused by the removal of the safety tabs. But what if someone filed off the tabs and their dropout broke? Not so cut and dry this time.

Quickreleases need flat surfaces to clamp against in order to distribute the clamping pressure evenly. If someone files their safety tabs off, he should be aware that removing too much material can cause the pressure from the quickrelease to be uneven, posing a potential risk to the rider. 

*[email protected]*


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

chas said:


> "Lawyer tabs" were introduced as a response to several lawsuits against bicycle manufacturers from people who did not fasten their quick releases properly and were injured as a result. To answer your question, we have to deal with this now because lawyers went after the bicycle manufacturers involved, hence the name. From the Sheldon Brown link above: _Since this extra stuff was installed as a defense against frivolous lawsuits by ambulance-chasing shysters, the extra bumps are sometimes known as "lawyer lips" or "lawyer tabs."_
> 
> *[email protected]*


Sorry, Chas. I dumped on LOOK unfairly because that was the bike in the OP. However,
I think the rules should state that the manufacurer should be held harmless in the event of an accident or injury arising out of removal of safety tabs rather than voiding a warranty. Morons and quality products should be separate in status. As for LOOK, I've been on one since 1993 and will probably never switch. You and LOOK can take credit because of superior products in every price range and great customer service. Plus I love the visual exclusivity while surrounded by a bunch of blue Treks on a club ride and Ja Ja's signature initiates conversations that reveal there were other pro cyclists than Lance. Imagine that.

_Will this get me a new 585?_


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

oily666 said:


> Sorry, Chas. I dumped on LOOK unfairly because that was the bike in the OP. However,
> I think the rules should state that the manufacurer should be held harmless in the event of an accident or injury arising out of removal of safety tabs rather than voiding a warranty. Morons and quality products should be separate in status. As for LOOK, I've been on one since 1993 and will probably never switch. You and LOOK can take credit because of superior products in every price range and great customer service. Plus I love the visual exclusivity while surrounded by a bunch of blue Treks on a club ride and Ja Ja's signature initiates conversations that reveal there were other pro cyclists than Lance. Imagine that.
> 
> _Will this get me a new 585?_


I think that Chas' latest response hints that Look USA, at least, holds a more "realistic and rational" view of the lawyer tab warranty killer. The way I read things, if I had a steerer issue that was covered by the warranty, Look would be unlikely to penalize me for having removed my lawyer tabs.

In fact, I'm currently awaiting my hand-delivered, by Chas, 595 so that I can file, with loving care and finger nail polish at the ready, the 595's lawyer lips into non-existence. Why have such an unsightly, unnecessary wart on an otherwise scrog-worthy bicycle?


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## chas (Aug 10, 2006)

Forrest Root said:


> I think that Chas' latest response hints that Look USA, at least, holds a more "realistic and rational" view of the lawyer tab warranty killer. The way I read things, if I had a steerer issue that was covered by the warranty, Look would be unlikely to penalize me for having removed my lawyer tabs.
> 
> In fact, I'm currently awaiting my hand-delivered, by Chas, 595 so that I can file, with loving care and finger nail polish at the ready, the 595's lawyer lips into non-existence. Why have such an unsightly, unnecessary wart on an otherwise scrog-worthy bicycle?


I think you're reading the wrong thing into it, so here's the official answer from our owner's manual:

"_[LOOK's warranty] is null and void if the user has made any technical modifications to the frame or fork, or if the frame or fork has been repaired, repainted anywhere other than in a LOOK approved repair center. 

*In particular do not remove the safety pins from the fork tabs*_"

I hope that clears up any questions anyone has regarding this issue :thumbsup: 

_*[email protected]*_


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Well, mine will still come off since they serve zero technical purpose and since any other possible frame or fork failure can have zero causal relationship with said lawyer tab removal...and since I know how to use QRs.

I'm a rational consumer and a stand up guy, so I would hope that respected companies would behave the same way, with respect and integrity.


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## HammerTime-TheOriginal (Mar 29, 2006)

What does "repainted" mean? What about touch ups? If you use apply some fingernail polish on a scratch does that void the warrany? Note the provision "Do not drill, paint, strip, or revarnish (clearcoat) the frame or fork."


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

HammerTime-TheOriginal said:


> What does "repainted" mean? What about touch ups? If you use apply some fingernail polish on a scratch does that void the warrany? Note the provision "Do not drill, paint, strip, or revarnish (clearcoat) the frame or fork."


That's the problem with letting lawyers draw up such documents: the restrictions placed on the owner/user are extreme and unreasonable, and they prevent the company from from providing reasonable customer service. Such documents make black and white what shouldn't be black and white.

And the lawyers come up with some Guiness Book of World Records worthy warranty and warning language. On the inside of a fair number of firefighting bunker gear (aka, the jacket and pants firefighters wear when fighting fires) is the line--or something similar to--"Not to be used in proximity to open flame." The warning labels--"Skydiving and/or parachuting is dangerous and may result in serious injury or death"--on skydiving gear are so numerous that they almost outweigh the gear itself. Of course the unspoken reality is that since these sorts of statements are crafted by lawyers, they can be beat by lawyers.

The sad thing is such ridiculous warranty language gets in the way of good companies, like Look, providing the best customer service they can.

With the abundance of blame skirting consumers and money drunk lawyers, us reasonable folks sometimes get screwed as a result of the shenanigans of the aforementioned.


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

HammerTime-TheOriginal said:


> What does "repainted" mean? What about touch ups? If you use apply some fingernail polish on a scratch does that void the warrany? Note the provision "Do not drill, paint, strip, or revarnish (clearcoat) the frame or fork."



This is for your protection as well as LOOK's. I have 18+ years in the polymer flooring and tank lining industry but, the basic properties of the resinous materials are pretty much the same. Epoxy, which is what holds the fibers together, is not UV stable. No epoxy is, not completely. It will break down in sunlight. LOOK uses an aliphatic ( I think ) polyurethane as well as a UV resistant varnish on their nude carbon frames and forks to stop UV from attacking the carbon/epoxy matrix. I believe that as carbon frames evolve and get lighter and thinner walled, there will be no nude carbon frames at all unless someone comes up with a urethane binder for carbon which, to me, doesn't sound that far fetched. Ugly as most of them are, Trek carbon frames have always been painted except for the first one. 

As an aside, nail polish may contain acetone which could attack the matrix if your chips are all the way through the finish coats. However, as the scratches are probably small and nail polish dries quickly, I wouldn't worry too much. Just a thought floating through my V.O.C. laden brain. 

Bottom line, if you buy over the counter spray paint to paint your nude carbon frame, you could be in for problems, especially at bond points. If you know the products you can do most anything but most people don't, hence the warranty exclusion. 


_To me, young has no meaning. It's something you can do nothing about.....nothing at all.
But, youth is a quality and if you have it, you never lose it.

Frank Lloyd Wright_


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