# #1 Reason Why You Won't Buy Rivendell Bikes or Stuff...



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

See subject. Poll'll be up in a minute. 

(_Note:_ A number of Rivendell fans have misunderstood this poll to be a 'slam' on Riv. That's really not the case. Rather, the goal is to see what exactly are ppl's objections to Riv, and then pass that info along.

Maybe it'll matter, maybe it won't, but at least a good discussion should ensue. And if you're wondering, yes, I personally do like Rivendell.)
.


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## holy cromoly (Nov 9, 2008)

Rivendells are unique niche bikes for those who like that style and are followers of Grant Peterson's bike philosophy.

I think Rivendell and Grant have their place in the bike world. A unique stance against the current tide in bike trends.

But they are not my cup of tea. Maybe when I am 60 years old, but not now.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

I like the retro-ness, steel, wool, leather, but... don't like the fit philosophy, don't like the high prices on bits (frameset prices reasonable last time I checked, other stuff can be found cheaper almost anywhere else), don't like all the whining about business being tough


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

FatTireFred said:


> I like the retro-ness, steel, wool, leather, but... don't like the fit philosophy, don't like the high prices on bits (frameset prices reasonable last time I checked, other stuff can be found cheaper almost anywhere else), don't like all the whining about business being tough


+10,000

Many years ago I subscribed to the reader and it was interesting for the most part. The thing that bugged me though, a lot, was the constant whining about how tough it was to make a living, meeting payroll, paying suppliers, etc. Frankly I'm shocked he's still in business. He always made it sound he was on the brink of bankruptcy. I might actually consider buying one of his frames but they are simply too darn expensive.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

holy cromoly said:


> Rivendells are unique niche bikes for those who like that style and are followers of Grant Peterson's bike philosophy.
> 
> I think Rivendell and Grant have their place in the bike world. A unique stance against the current tide in bike trends.
> 
> But they are not my cup of tea. Maybe when I am 60 years old, but not now.


Well, you don't actually have to be a follower of GP's bike philosophy to ride a riv, and they can be enjoyed in yer mid to late 30s with very little problem.

Here's what I learned from rivendell that I didn't learn riding ultramodern wunderbikes-

Fenders are awesome. I will always have at least one fendered bike from now on. 

Tire clearance is awesome. Riv got me looking at vintage steel race bikes, which have awesome performance and room for 28s.

Versatility in a bike is awesome. It's nice to have a bike that can do a couple things well instead of three bikes that can only do one thing. 

Old school sizing is awesome for me. I've never been comfortable with my bars way lower than my saddle. I was actually thinking that I might just have to stop riding, as it had become increasingly more uncomfortable. Riv got me riding and enjoying myself again. 

Brooks saddles are awesome. As are the Rolls and Regal saddles I discovered when I tried to find something like a brooks that I could leave in the rain.

Just riding for the fun of it, like you did when you were 15 is really awesome. Years of reading a certain bike magazine had me convinced that every ride was a training ride. Problem was, I wasn't training for anything, so my rides were just unenjoyable stopwatch driven slogs. Now I just ride. 

I'm not going to say I love everything about riv- they're ridiculously overpriced, grant can't stay focused on any one thing long enough to actually make money at it, tweed bags are ridiculous, and their bikes do not live up to the hype (to be fair, nothing could live up to the purple prose of riv fanboys). Mustache bars are beyond stupid. 

Riv's insane prices are what convinced me to order my first custom frame (full custom was cheaper than riv's stock frames), and that's pretty awesome. Doubt I would have done that without their financial prodding...

And, like I said, riv got me to enjoy riding again, and that's awesome.

edit- also, surly and soma exist because Riv blazed the trail. The Pacer is pretty much a cheap (price, not quality) knockoff of the Romulus/Rambouliet, the LHT is a pretty direct copy of the Atlantis, etc... Without Riv, the Salsa Caseroll wouldn't have seen the light of day.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

I just bought a rough as guts RB-1 so I would have to say I like GPs ideas( that and I worked in the factory making them way back in the early nineties). Not all of his ideas push my buttons but if he doesn't float your boat move on to another brand. End of the day he has created something a lot of people enjoy. More power to him.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Love their looks. Don't like the way they ride.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I have no trouble just tooling along on my modern racing bike. It goes fast when I want it to. And when I want it to, it'll go Rivendell slow, too. I just don't pedal as hard.


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

as much as i dig old retro bikes, the whole new-retro thing ain't doing it for me. if i'm gonna buy a new bike, it's gonna be a _new bike!_


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## rcnute (Dec 21, 2004)

Hmm. I can't think of a reason not to!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

rcnute said:


> Hmm. I can't think of a reason not to!


*Love* the red/white paint scheme. :thumbsup:

Reminds me a bit of the late '80s Centurion LeMans RS, a bike I very nearly bought as a college kid.
(kinda wish I had, the 54 size in it fit me PERFECTLY, better than the bike I ended up buying.)

_PS–_ 'nute, what handlebars are those? The bend is just _perfect_, kinda like medium-drop 3TTT's.
.


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## Leopold Porkstacker (Jul 15, 2005)

Umm… I guess the reason would be that I’m unemployed.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

I like the whole sturdy, tried and true bike philosophy. I've been through 3 Bridgestones, which Grant probably had a hand in spec'ing. But when I want such a bike now, my 'style' is to entertain myself shopping for bits to build such a bike on Ebay and rolling my own, not browsing the Reader trying to get the jump on what color shellac'd cloth tape is hawt this season. And for the millionth time - great if somebody else loves moustache bars, but I don't like them. No matter how many times I'm told they're the best choice for everybody, they're not.


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## rcnute (Dec 21, 2004)

Nitto Noodles. I've since moved on to Nitto Randonneur bars, which are much more comfortable.



SystemShock said:


> *Love* the red/white paint scheme. :thumbsup:
> 
> Reminds me a bit of the late '80s Centurion LeMans RS, a bike I very nearly bought as a college kid.
> (kinda wish I had, the 54 size in it fit me PERFECTLY, better than the bike I ended up buying.)
> ...


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

*I like Riv...*

I've learned some good things about riding from them and have bought a fair amount of stuff from them, but not a bike. Anyone extolling the virtures of steel bikes by Surley, Soma, etc., and maybe even many custom frame builders, ought to question whether they'd even exist now if not for Rivendell keeping alive the interest and discussion of steel bikes while leaving an opportunity for cheaper, lugless, welded frames.

Carbon or aluminum racing style frames are to the only way to ride a bike. To think otherwise is to suffer from the same smugness that some in this thread (wrongly) attribute to GP.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

*Two bridges to cross with Rivendell...*

RC's Saluki pic does bring up an (annoying to some ppl) thing about Rivendell... their design orthodoxy can be a bit maddening at times. Again, to some.

For example, Riv firmly believes in a seating position that puts the bars at seat height level or a bit above. Fine, okay, that could be a good position. It might well work better for a lot of ppl than the 'wannabe racer' position many rec riders attempt to adopt. 

But, Riv doesn't like up-angled stems. And they don't like frames with a significant amount of top-tube slope. So, how do you get the bars way up there then? Oh, okay, let's spec no-rise, ultra-long-neck Nitto Technomic stems (which look fugly/weird to some when yanked way up high), and size all our bikes REAL BIG. You rode a 54 before? WRONG! You actually need a 59, boy! 

Mmm... okay. Huh?  

It's like you got two bridges to cross with Rivendell sometimes... the new idea they're pushing (which might be good), and then the often odd/bass-ackwards way they get there.

I think one of Riv's problems popularity-wise is that a lot of potential customers are willing to cross one bridge, but not two.
.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Where's the poll?

My #1 hate for Rivendell is how they quit making some very nice bikes (eg, Rambouillet, Romulus) so they could force-feed 650b bikes on cyclists who actually agree with their philosophy in many ways.

Hate #2 is how they jacked up the prices on all of their frames so they cost as much as a custom.

In general, however, I agree with the Rivendell philosophy in most respects. Unfortunately, they don't seem to know how to run a business and their ideas get dismissed my many as a result. I visit their web site all the time for ideas, but have never actually bought anything from them. That should tell you something.


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## Le Wrench (May 12, 2009)

tarwheel2 said:


> Hate #2 is how they jacked up the prices on all of their frames so they cost as much as a custom.


They need to find another source to manufacture their frames. I might be wrong, but I think they are using Toyo in Japan for the frames. Not cheap if that is the case. The bike business has long moved into Taiwan and now mainland China.

But that is part of their mystique. Those who want them, are still willing to pay dearly for one.

I remember wanting an Atlantis back in 2001 or so. They were $995 for a frame back then and I thought that was expensive. Now the Atlantis is around $2000 eight years later.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Le Wrench said:


> They need to find another source to manufacture their frames. I might be wrong, but I think they are using Toyo in Japan for the frames. Not cheap if that is the case. The bike business has long moved into Taiwan and now mainland China.
> 
> But that is part of their mystique. Those who want them, are still willing to pay dearly for one.
> 
> I remember wanting an Atlantis back in 2001 or so. They were $995 for a frame back then and I thought that was expensive. Now the Atlantis is around $2000 eight years later.


To be completely fair, Riv does offer a couple of $1000 frames for sale... though one is a women's mixte.  

Still, even comparing to those, you can get a Surly or Soma frame for less than half that. Or, a complete bike (like the Crosscheck) for about the same price. 

And, of course, Riv does indeed have a slew of $2000 production frames for sale. You wanna say, "Wow, they should just offer custom for that price...", but they do offer custom– at $3,000. 
.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

SystemShock said:


> RC's Saluki pic does bring up an (annoying to some ppl) thing about Rivendell... their design orthodoxy can be a bit maddening at times. Again, to some.
> 
> 
> Mmm... okay. Huh?
> ...


 and this from a year ago. Another poll about Rivendells. It got locked.07-09-2008. Your third post mirrors your last post on this thread. 



SystemShock said:


> You either already know of Rivendell (purveyors of wool, 650B, and the country bike, among many other things) and their philosophy, or you don't, and if you do, you probably know a lot about them.
> 
> Grant P and Co. seem to be a lightning rod for controversy and strongly-held ideological beliefs, part of the 'war' for the heart of the cycling consumer, and framers of the debate over what is and is not appropriate technology.
> 
> Love 'em or hate 'em, they seem to be one of the most interesting bike companies out there, so... what's your opinion? Do you agree or disagree with their philosophy and products? And why or why not?


This fixation can't be healthy man, let go....... If your not trolling your pretty darn persistent at gnawing on that bone. Go pick on Trek or someone that has millions of dollars.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

kiwisimon said:


> and this from a year ago. Another poll about Rivendells. It got locked.07-09-2008. Your third post mirrors your last post on this thread.
> 
> This fixation can't be healthy man, let go....... If your not trolling your pretty darn persistent at gnawing on that bone. Go pick on Trek or someone that has millions of dollars.


Yah, you're right. *Two* threads on Rivendell in a ten-month span is flat out _stalking_. What was I thinking???  

Srsly though, the threads are different. The other was very general, this one's more for ppl to say exactly what is keeping them from going with Riv.
.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

obviously weren't


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

kiwisimon said:


> obviously weren't


Sigh. There's always a hater.  

From your 'picking on' comment, you seem to be worried that I hate Riv. It's actually the opposite.

And, if you don't like a particular thread, well, no one's really forcing you to read it. That's the great thing about web browsers... they all have these things called 'back' buttons. 
.


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## Le Wrench (May 12, 2009)

SystemShock said:


> To be completely fair, Riv does offer a couple of $1000 frames for sale... though one is a women's mixte.
> 
> Still, even comparing to those, you can get a Surly or Soma frame for less than half that. Or, a complete bike (like the Crosscheck) for about the same price.


True about Surly and Soma.

The Long Haul Trucker is basically a modestly priced Atlantis sans the lugged construction and Rivendell perceived brand value.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> RC's Saluki pic does bring up an (annoying to some ppl) thing about Rivendell... their design orthodoxy can be a bit maddening at times. Again, to some.


I think it's less a problem of design orthodoxy than an undiagnosed case of ADD in Grant Peterson.

He just can't stay focused. Canvas. Tweed. 650b. 650a. English design. French Design. Can't wait for him to make the jump to Italian design and offer a steel race bike. 

If they just had a consistent line of products for a couple years, they might be able to convince more people to buy their product.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> See subject. Poll'll be up in a minute.
> .


You should have had a poll option for "could care less."

All of your options presuppose that I've taken the time to develop an opinion on some aspect of Riv's business or products. Well, except for the last one which claims ignorance.

In my case - I'm simply not interested in anything they have to offer - frames, accessories or philosophy. There is such a banquet of choices out there, why even bother thinking about something that doesn't have enough eye appeal to drag you in?

I put them in the same category as Lemond - they don't offer a single item that encourages me to stop and look at the advertising.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

We like our Rivendells just fine.

We may not ride them as much as our Waterfords but they are very nice bikes indeed (too bad they are not available with polished stainless steel lugs.....).

BTW your poll has no option for folks who like Rivendell and are happy with their purchases.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Not Italian. too heavy.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

Rivendell? That's a bike company? Oh, I see. Nope, not interested. Is there an "all of the above" option in the poll?


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

MB1 said:


> BTW your poll has no option for folks who like Rivendell and are happy with their purchases.


Yep, but the poll is for ppl who _aren't_ buying Rivendell. 

After all, the question is, "What is the #1 reason why you won't buy Riv bikes or stuff?".

That doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of ppl who are thumbs-up on their Riv purchases... but what the poll is trying to do is figure out specifically why there aren't more such ppl.



TerryB said:


> You should have had a poll option for "could care less."


You mean, "couldn't care less." And I did think about it, but decided that if someone wasn't focused enough in their 'meh-ness' towards Riv to be able to be specific about it, it wasn't really worth having as a poll option.

I mean, there's about a zillion different things that Riv could potentially do to draw someone's attention- which of those zillion would work, which wouldn't, and why? :idea:


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> Yep, but the poll is for ppl who _aren't_ buying Rivendell.


Fixations are like car wrecks and large Navy ships. They're just fascinating to see and watch as they go by...


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PdxMark said:


> Fixations are like car wrecks and large Navy ships. They're just fascinating to see and watch as they go by...


Sigh. Looks like the 'Riv defenders' are out in force. 

Gentlemen, let me say it again– I _like_ Riv. I've exchanged emails with Grant. I've been to their shop in Walnut Creek. I've bought things from them.

Now, ask yourselves, what would be more helpful to Riv... a 'high-five', 'pat yourself on the back' thread, or one that gets to the root of ppl's objections to/problems with Riv, and gives them data that just might be a lil' useful? Hmm... :idea: 

But, I guess everyone's knee-jerk reaction is to always think everything is a personal attack against their buying choices. Gets a bit old, even for RBR. :frown2:
.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

SystemShock said:


> <snip>
> Now, ask yourselves, what would be more helpful to Riv... a 'high-five', 'pat yourself on the back' thread, or one that gets to the root of ppl's objections to/problems with Riv, and gives them data that just might be a lil' useful? Hmm... :idea:
> <snip>
> .


So you want to do market research for Riv? Is this something that they've asked you to do or has Grant told you that he'd be interested? Or is this just personal curiosity?

I've looked at the Riv site and I don't agree with their design philosophy, nor the results that they draw based on whatever they did for research that wasn't scientific but based on feel. They seem to spend a lot of time trying to justify themselves. It doesn't give me confidence in them.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

JoelS said:


> So you want to do market research for Riv? Is this something that they've asked you to do or has Grant told you that he'd be interested? Or is this just personal curiosity?


It's me being nice, basically. And, yup, a bit of personal curiosity.  

They didn't ask me to do anything, nor do I have any desire to work for 'em. But I would like to see them keep going, as an alternative to the industry's 'groupthink'.
.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> You mean, "couldn't care less." And I did think about it, but decided that if someone wasn't focused enough in their 'meh-ness' towards Riv to be able to be specific about it, it wasn't really worth having as a poll option.


I knew I shouldn't have wasted my time writing that answer. Thanks for the reminder that I type too quickly.


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## rlchriss (Jun 13, 2007)

What? I just bought some super-fresh Nitto stuff from Riv - cage, road bar and quill stem. Beautiful.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*not sure how this is a poll*



SystemShock said:


> See subject. Poll'll be up in a minute.
> .


All the categories are biased. Not sure why anyone would "hate" a bike comapny especially one that is such an advocate of riding, even if you don't care for their bikes. I think alternative views are good for the sport. How does this hurt you or the bike industry?


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

So this part:


> Now, ask yourselves, what would be more helpful to Riv... a 'high-five', 'pat yourself on the back' thread, or one that gets to the root of ppl's objections to/problems with Riv, and gives them data that just might be a lil' useful? Hmm...


 is entirely that you think whatever you come up with will be helpful to them and they'll be interested? Ok then.

I'm not at all interested in Riv. I'm glad others are. More bikes and advocacy are good for the industry as a whole.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

DaveG said:


> All the categories are biased. Not sure why anyone would "hate" a bike comapny especially one that is such an advocate of riding, even if you don't care for their bikes. I think alternative views are good for the sport. How does this hurt you or the bike industry?


Don't be a hater. Oops that's me.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

*Judging by the comments, there's now a 'poll' about the poll...*

Gotta luv RBR. Always some unnecessary drama, no matter what you say or do. Ah well. :lol:
.


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

If this comment:



PdxMark said:


> Fixations are like car wrecks and large Navy ships. They're just fascinating to see and watch as they go by...


triggers the below response.... I think you've made my point... 



SystemShock said:


> Sigh. Looks like the 'Riv defenders' are out in force.
> 
> Gentlemen, let me say it again– I _like_ Riv. I've exchanged emails with Grant. I've been to their shop in Walnut Creek. I've bought things from them.
> 
> ...


By the way, point out in my passage above any "knee-jerk reaction" "to always think everything is a personal attack against their buying choices." I'm looking forward to seeing another fascinating analysis and how many obscure emoticons you can sprinkle about.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

buck-50 said:


> I think it's less a problem of design orthodoxy than an undiagnosed case of ADD in Grant Peterson.
> 
> He just can't stay focused. Canvas. Tweed. 650b. 650a. English design. French Design. Can't wait for him to make the jump to Italian design and offer a steel race bike.


You forgot about the new '603' wheel size Grant' been threatening to unleash. 

But 650A too? Really? I must've missed that one.
.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PdxMark said:


> If this comment:
> 
> triggers the below response.... I think you've made my point...


I honestly don't care about whatever axe it is you have to grind. Go hijack someone else's thread. Thanks.

.


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> I honestly don't care about whatever axe it is you have to grind. Go hijack someone else's thread. Thanks.
> 
> .


No axe. Just asking if you can support what you said I said. I guess not.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

SystemShock said:


> .... Go hijack someone else's thread. Thanks.


So what you are sayin' is that you want discussion but only if you can control it all.

Nice but that is not how the internet works.

Unless you want to start your own web site.

Then have at it.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Wow, this thread makes the triple thread so much clearer. I understand what kind of bike riding you do.

Anyway, i can't choose just one reason. In order of most hate to least:

Don't agree with their bike design philosophy - who needs a 'country bike'?
Personally find Grant/the way he advocates to be obnoxious/off-putting
Riv's prices = ridiculous: custom bike/frame pricing for production bikes/frames
Aesthetics - fugly bike color choices, parts that look old not cool, etc
Other companies do much of what Riv does (Surly, Soma) & do it better/cheaper


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

MB1 said:


> So what you are sayin' is that you want discussion but only if you can control it all.
> 
> Nice but that is not how the internet works.
> 
> ...


I don't know how to break this to you, but yer missing half yer rivendell... Did yer new carbon bike eat it?


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

kbiker3111 said:


> Other companies do much of what Riv does (Surly, Soma) & do it better/cheaper


THis is the one I've just got to disagree with.

Riv is a lot like apple- they do a lot of crazy R&D that no one else thinks makes any sense. THey think different, they market different, and when they get things figured out, others copy them. 

There's a whole lot of stuff that wouldn't exist right now if riv hadn't figure out that someone actually wanted it. THink of how many custom builders build riv style bikes. Suddenly, there's a niche for steel that frankly, ten years ago, was dying off. 

So, give 'em props- no one does it like rivendell, for better or worse.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

buck-50 said:


> edit- also, surly and soma exist because Riv blazed the trail. The Pacer is pretty much a cheap (price, not quality) knockoff of the Romulus/Rambouliet, the LHT is a pretty direct copy of the Atlantis, etc...




I don't buy that... Surly's first bike was either the instigator dirt jumper or 1x1 singlespeed, both mtn bikes that filled a niche- solid inexpensive frames for specific purposes, like all their bikes. they followed those with the cross check in 1998 or 99, right when the cx boom started going. others followed over the yrs- steamroller fg, karate monkey 29er, conundrum uni, pacer, LHT, pugsley, dummy, traveler's check... each filling a small corner of the market, perhaps a bit lucky in their timing (or not). of all those, the pacer and LHT are the only ones that remotely resemble any rivendell, and those are relative noobs to the surly lineup

soma is a direct gank of surly


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

MB1 said:


> So what you are sayin' is that you want discussion but only if you can control it all.


Nope, ppl can say whatever, on-topic. Just don't care about the petty bickering. Think most would agree, 'cept for the bickerers.
.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PdxMark said:


> No axe. Just asking if you can support what you said I said. I guess not.











.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I like that they have their own design philisophy.... it's just 100% opposed to my riding philosophy. Heavy slow old stuff is just junk to me. I started riding when toe clips and unindexed downtube shifters were the norm. So I've used "retro" gear already and I have no interest in repeating the experience. To me it's about the riding, and the better the equipment is the more I can focus on riding.

OTOH, I know people who have either gotten into riding or continued riding because the whole Rivendell aesthetic appeals to them. Anything that gets more people riding is good. Cycling is big; there's room for all kinds of riders.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

kbiker3111 said:


> Wow, this thread makes the triple thread so much clearer. I understand what kind of bike riding you do.


Nope. I don't really truly ride 'Riv-style'. Grant would castigate me as a heretic, prolly.  

I have, however, achieved 'Riv-acceptance' on a lot of things, such as bar-end shifters, wool, fatter-than-23C-road-tires, steel frames, practical wheels, etc. I also generally prefer the look of alloy components to carbon.
.


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

SS - I believe you are illustrating here what a friend of mine calls "slipping a turd in someone's pocket". You claim to be a supporter, yet all your poll options are worded in a way that is insulting to Riv.

In the same way you want your critics to click the back button, or not open your thread, will you please stat the f away from Riv in the future? Thank God there are options for people who aren't like you.

What marketing insight do you hope to gain from the first option? "My friends will laugh at me." Seriously? You want us to believe that you have no axe? You're spreading your stinky crap around and calling it petuli oil. You're a republican, aren't you...

Yes, I'm calling BS on you.

Go away.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

brujenn said:


> SS - I believe you are illustrating here what a friend of mine calls "slipping a turd in someone's pocket". You claim to be a supporter, yet all your poll options are worded in a way that is insulting to Riv.
> 
> In the same way you want your critics to click the back button, or not open your thread, will you please stat the f away from Riv in the future? Thank God there are options for people who aren't like you.
> 
> ...


Sigh. It's amazing how easily ppl can miscontrue something, especially when it concerns something close to their heart.

Let me ask you this... if you got a knock on the door, and some marketing pollster asked you all the reasons why you're not with AT&T, would you

a) assume he was legit, and wanted to know in order to help AT&T improve, or
b) assume he *HATED* AT&T, for listing the major possible reasons why you're not with them?

Sorry, but b) is simply not rational in that situation. So why would it be on the internet? 

Yes, the poll options *are* negative. That's exactly the point. The question, again, is why *WON'T* you buy Riv bikes or stuff?

What exactly is offending you here? Do you think there's a better way the poll could've been done? How else do you find out what a company's perceived negatives are, except by discussing them?

I love the fact that there are such enthusiastic Riv fanatics out there, that speaks well to their customer loyalty, but at the same time, you can't always be preaching to the converted. 

'Call BS' 'til the cows come home, I don't think you really understand what this poll/thread is really about. But I would suggest keeping an open mind.

Oh, and no, I'm not a Repub. Dem since the early '80s, actually. Does it really matter?
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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

rlchriss said:


> What? I just bought some super-fresh Nitto stuff from Riv - cage, road bar and quill stem. Beautiful.


Indeed. I have a 46cm Nitto Noodle bar I got from Riv, and I like it quite a lot.
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