# Bootie/shoe cover question brand not the issue...



## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

After reading about a thousand threads on this subject, I've come to the conclusion that there simply is no magic bullet to fix cold toes via a shoe cover alone if you are susceptible to chilly piggies. That said, here's my question....is there really any major difference between the extremely expensive shoe covers and rather cheap ones in terms of warmth? I'm not talking about workmanship differences, just purely function as it relates to keeping you warm. My experience has been that a) no bootie has ever effectively stopped the cold on its own and b) I tend to wear through/destroy a pair every 2-3 seasons anyway. I've always opted for more expensive shoe covers but this time I'm thinking of a more budget route and just combining them with taped vents, great socks and/or chemical warmers if its really cold. I typically don't ride much outside in temps below about 25F fwiw. Anyway, does saving some cash make sense here or should I plunk down for more expensive booties again this time?


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

No. It's partially the road shoes themselves that are conducting the heat away from your foot.

A second, just as important factor, is the fit of the shoe. Most road shoes are form-fitting (I hesitate to use the words "tight" or "snug" but you get the idea.). As a result, if you try to fit a bulkier winter sock in the same shoe, you squish all the insulating properties out of the sock. Inside your shoe is a "micro-climate" and the loft or bulk of a thick winter sock is by necessity to trap air and create a heated environment. If you could purchase a second pair of shoes slightly oversized for winter riding you might be better off. I would try the shoes on with a thin sock liner and a thicker, winter sock, to check for that winter fit. It would be nothing to go up a half or full size in a winter shoe.

Also, you could be a heavy "foot-sweater". Once your feet start to sweat, it's key to wick that moisture off your feet-a dry foot is a warm foot. Here's where thin sock liners worn in addition to a bulkier winter sock are a must in winter riding.

You also have to distance your feet from the cold, heat sucking materials that are part of your shoe. Synthetic uppers and thin insoles along with hard plastic or carbon soles don't do squat for keeping your feet warm. My suede upper/rubber soled mountain bike shoes are definitely warmer than my plastic/synthetic road shoes.

Another tip to help keep your feet warm: Keep your legs warmer than you'd like them to be. While your legs might feel fine down to those 25 degree temps you mention, that heat may be lost by the time it reaches your feet. Slipping on a pair of leg warmers over your tights, or wearing a second pair of tights may preserve more heat to reach your feet.

Once you address your issues from INSIDE the shoe OUTWARDS, then consider an insulating, windproof bootie.

I commuted to work for decades through Connecticut winters so I have experience with these issues. Hope some of these suggestions will help you.


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

Thanks for the reply and tips (with huge credibility!). I'm in NE Ohio so our winters can be brutal and I usually wind up putting the road bike on a trainer and putting flats on the CX or MTB and riding in boots. My winter road shoes are a bit on the big size (44 and I usually wear a 43) but my other shoes aren't oversized. I may tape the insides a bit more but I will also try wear a thin merino sock and then my winter socks over those. I'd like to add some booties as well but I think it sounds like just about anything windproof will be as good as anything else if I first address all of the possible "culprits". Big shoe, warm socks, taped shoes, windproof bootie, tights, and if needed, chemical warmers and if its still too cold, Zwift it is!


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I think the problem here is that the bottom of the shoe is always open. Even if the booties are well insulated, the bottom of the shoe is conducting so much heat away that you can't tell if you're sensitive. 
Over size shoes, thick wool socks, & put plastic over my toes & front of the shoe (inside the shoe) to block wind, that is about as good as it can get. For me that would be a 36F start with a eye towards climbing temps. If it ain't getting warmer fast, I'm going skip that one.


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

agreed that there is only so much anyone can do.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

When it's cold, I wear neoprene toe warmers under my neoprene booties. If it's cool, high 30s and above, I wear knit Roubaix type sockies-shoe covers with my neoprene toe warmers over them. Doubling up on the front of your foot is how to keep the wind off your tootsies. I also like the Roubaix knit materiel because it keeps my feet from sweating too much by letting the vapor go out the back, while the toe warmers keep my forefeet warm.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Just like jerseys, bibs, layers, knee/arm and leg warmers and hats.......there's not necessarily a correlation between price and warmth. People who ride when it's 40 degrees like to buy expensive stuff too.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I have been happy with a pair of neoprene shoe covers that I bought years ago off eBay. They are still going strong.

Consider getting some felt insoles to insulate between the bottom of your foot and the shoe.


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

again, thanks all. I am going to purchase a new pair of booties (either the Craft Neoprenes, Assos Winter booties if on sale, or maybe the Gore booties). I'll order them on the large size and use my PI toe covers under when needed. That with a thin merino sock under my Heat Holder socks and I think I'll be as warm as I can hope to be. If its too cold for that, I'll be on the trainer!


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

2 summers ago I broke down and bought some Sidi Hydro GTX road boots. They are a bit warmer than neoprene covers and far more convenient. Good sales can be had in the summer.


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

We had a great deal this summer through our team on some 45 NTH boots and I should have jumped on it. I wasn't thinking right about and thought booties were more versatile since I flip between pedal systems on my cross and road bikes all winter. After the fact I remembered that I had another set of Candy SLs sitting in the parts drawer and could have just swapped the road pedals for the winter months and been all set. Live and learn. 

I did buy some Assos Winterbooties yesterday and think that should do the trick. I rode yesterday in a thin pair of Merino wool socks, my Heat Holder socks and just some thin PI toe covers and was good for an hour before I started getting chilly toes. Another half hour and I'd have been uncomfortable I think. Temps were upper 30's and a solid 16-20mph wind. I figure that adding the bootie and even chemical warmers if needed should get me down near 20-25F for an hour to 90 mins. Anything colder and I'm inside!


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I just remember another tip, which I have not tried.

I've heard applying antiperspirant on the bottoms of your feet will help keep them warm. Don't confuse that with deodorant, however. Like I said, I've never tried this but I've heard it works.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

Here are a couple of other ideas. Check your shoes, some have vents in them, if yours do you can remove the insole and put tape over the vents and put the insole back in. Another idea is to check out winter cycling boots/shoes.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Peter P. said:


> I just remember another tip, which I have not tried.
> 
> I've heard applying antiperspirant on the bottoms of your feet will help keep them warm. Don't confuse that with deodorant, however. Like I said, I've never tried this but I've heard it works.


I posted about this last Winter. My findings were:

1) Feet are incredibly slippery once covered in antiperspirant. Basically you have to slide a sock on immediately before touching the ground, or you're going to fall...
2) My feet did initially feel drier than without the antiperspirant. Although my feet would get cold on descents, they would warm up afterwards because the socks were not wet.
3) The effectiveness decreased after about 30 minutes. By the time I got home my feet were wet as always, and more importantly freezing as always.


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## jmeloy (Jan 22, 2004)

Have tried several covers and had better luck with a pair of Gore and the PI Barrier's. Bought some Castelli's and they were terrible. Stepped up to a pair of Northwave boots on sale early this season.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Brands do absolutely matter. No comment on price really but I own booties from many different companies, at least 6, and they're all quite different.

Bellwether is really low quality but honestly is the standard in the industry as far as I'm concerned. Their prices, construction/materials are probably better than PI if not at least on par. That being said although I own lots and lots of stuff from both I'll never buy anything from either again. I'm done spending money over and over again and not being satisfied with it so I switched to Assos for pretty much everything.

The old school Assos winter booties really trump most any common winter bootie out there. Their thermal fabric is a little thicker and more waffley which is nice/fine/whatever but it's the addition of their 851 Airblock material that makes the difference. They're also sturdier than others and last more than a season or two. Their rain booties make my Bellwether rain booties look like a joke.

But even with Assos gear it's a huge pain to me, one I really don't care for. Just yesterday I said to myself that it took as look to get my shoes on as it did to get the whole of the rest of my body ready. Embrocate toes, put on socks, wrap toes in foil, put on shoes, put on toe covers, put on winter booties, put on rain booties, make sure cleats still work... that was a fun 10 minutes... not. And when I get back I'm all sweaty and worn out and I just want to jump in the shower. But no. Have to get the rain booties and winter booties and toe covers off enough to get the straps open on the shoes...

Today I gave up, well I gave in. Today I ordered a pair of those Northwave arctic boots. I really hope they work and can save me all the time and frustration of putting booties on and taking them off.


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

eh, I've found the booties don't make much of a difference. For extreme cold I'll put a plastic bag over my toes (outside the sock, inside the shoe), toe warmers (the kind that stick to the bottom of your feet) and then hand warmers on top of the shoes but under the booties.

I've also found that lately I'm using serfas or time "windproof" shoe covers (they're made by the same manufacturer) as a base for the really cold days and then a pair of garneau neoprene booties over those-- the garneau booties are not super thick, but coupled with the other layer and any variation of warmers, layers, etc, I find I can manage just about any temps into single digits.


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## tommybike (Dec 30, 2015)

Try winter boots. I have a pair of Northwaves that really help. Use booties over them when really cold.


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## LuckyB (Sep 9, 2012)

tommybike said:


> Try winter boots. I have a pair of Northwaves that really help. Use booties over them when really cold.


This would be my advice, along with "Gore" booties. As I have different work shoes for the summer than I do for the winter.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

last year I started using Hotronics inserts when it got much below 30 degrees - they take me down to below zero without any issues. That's combined with some Winter cycling boots and covers too. Probably half the hard core Winter guys I ride with use these, they are THE solution to cold toes IMHO.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

when it gets cold you want to be in boots and not cycling shoes. I'm partial to lake mxz 303's, and when the temperature really drops i simply add chemical toe warmers. if you're going to be out in zero degree temperatures you'll want super heavy boots such as wolfhammers.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> 2 summers ago I broke down and bought some Sidi Hydro GTX road boots. They are a bit warmer than neoprene covers and far more convenient. Good sales can be had in the summer.


I would think, especially after I've tried the cover thing and still having cold feet, that a boot dedicated for the winter would work far better. There are other brands too like Shimano MW81 which is pretty decently priced, or the top of the line winter boot like the Northwave Extreme Winter shoes.

There are other less expensive options that could keep your feet warm like the EXO battery powered heated insoles, or lesser degree there is non powered 3M Thermal insoles, but I've never tried any of those.


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

quick update, I'll likely pick up a pair of Fasterkat 45NTH shoes (maybe even before winter is done through our team. I had a great chance to buy some cheap over the summer but foolishly passed, not this time. In the interim, I bought some Assos Winterbooties as suggested above. I've only used them once but they worked much better than other booties I've tried and yet were far more minimalist. Temps were in the mid to upper 20's with a steady wind at 15ish so it was a good test. Under them, I only wore a thin merino sock and my Heatholder socks. First half hour, I was very comfortably warm. Second half hour I was comfy but could tell it wouldn't last forever. By the end of the third half hour, I had chilly toes but not truly cold. Can't complain much about that experience. Had I not stepped in a puddle when I broke through some ice (I was on the CX bike), it might have been even better. For much colder, I'll add my toe covers and a sticky chem warmer and I think I can get down to the teens. Below that and Zwift is calling! Thanks again for all of the great input here. Ride safely all!


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Today I gave up, well I gave in. Today I ordered a pair of those Northwave arctic boots. I really hope they work and can save me all the time and frustration of putting booties on and taking them off.







Well I've had time to put the Northwave Arctic 2 GTX boots to the test.

They failed miserably.

They fit good, they fit true to size. A pair of woolie boolie socks and still plenty of room to wiggle the toes around in there. Not a big toe box at all but just big enough. Overall size is spot on to older Fizik and Shimano Dynalast.

Closure system is pretty good. Speed laces and two velcro covers for them. Fairly robust gusseted tongue, nice construction overall. Quality is good. Not real flexy or anything but not Bont stiff.

Basically they're a good cycling shoe/boot/whatever. They're built nice and feel nice, they're comfortable and have an average stack height.

But they don't keep my feet warm.

I'm comparing them to a pair of all leather Fizik R1 Uomo covered by Assos Winter Booties which are covered by Assos Rain Booties. That setup gets me down below zero without my feet getting the slightest bit cold until about 1.5 to 2 hours in, depending on wind and such. Same single pair of woolie boolie's inside. I no longer embrocate or use foil, I find both completely ineffective.

I found that the Northwave Arctic 2 GTX boots will only take me down to about 40 degrees by themselves. And if it's a 40 on the cold side with plenty of wind and no sun then they don't even do well then. When riding with them my feet get cold but nothing else on me is cold when usually my feet aren't a concern at all.

After my last ride with them I took out the insoles to feel if the vents on the bottom go through, they don't. But I could feel the cold in the toe box as being quite evident when I stuck my hand in there. These things get cold and stay cold. 

Basically they completely fail at keeping my feet warm but do everything else fine.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Maybe you should add that battery powered EXO insole heat thingy I mentioned and add that to your new shoes, but they are expensive, see: http://www.amazon.com/EXO2-HeatSole-including-Lithium-Ion-Batteries/dp/B008GWKIQ0

There is a lessor expensive one too, see: http://www.amazon.com/Thermacell-Re...39&sr=8-1&keywords=therma+cell+heated+insoles

Or for lot less money initially but a lot more money as time goes by are those Hothands insole foot warmers; see: http://www.amazon.com/Hothands-Inso...id=1453081020&sr=8-11&keywords=heated+insoles But at least you could try one of these and if they work with your shoe than you'll have a pretty good idea the more expensive ones would work.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm just going back to the Fizik shoes and double covers. It's weather-proof and keeps my feet toasty warm and comfy as cold as I'll ride. I just wanted the same thing without having to deal with two layers of booties (oh, I forgot, I have toe covers on under the winter booties) and straps under them and such. I wanted to just pull on a boot and go and have it still work. I wanted them to be the magic bullet but that they are not.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

My recipe:

- bare feet in thin plastic bags;
- thick socks;
- thin plastic bags over socks;
- regular cycling shoes;
- shoe covers (cheap, no-name);
- warm bibtights;
- a warm hat;

and then my secret ingredient

- an overheating torso under a (very) windproof jacket. 

This may be the worst advice ever for rides in freezing temperatures, but yes: an overheating torso. 
It's uncomfortable. If you stop on the road and cool down, it's unpleasant and perhaps dangerous - you have to keep on moving. But it's the only thing that keeps my extremities warm. Not forever: after two hours or so in 20 F it doesn't work anymore. But it's the best there is for me. If my torso is comfortable, my feet and hands are cold.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

bmach said:


> Here are a couple of other ideas. Check your shoes, some have vents in them, if yours do you can remove the insole and put tape over the vents and put the insole back in. Another idea is to check out winter cycling boots/shoes.


I can attest to the fact that taping over the bottom slits for my SPD's (under the insert, and then replacing it), as well as taping over the vents in my shoes, have kept my feet warmer than the neoprene booties that I bought.

GH


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

MMsRepBike said:


> I'm just going back to the Fizik shoes and double covers. It's weather-proof and keeps my feet toasty warm and comfy as cold as I'll ride. I just wanted the same thing without having to deal with two layers of booties (oh, I forgot, I have toe covers on under the winter booties) and straps under them and such. I wanted to just pull on a boot and go and have it still work. I wanted them to be the magic bullet but that they are not.


These are the magic bullet with a decent pair of shoes and covers. Just replace the insole with the ones in the kit and you can have this on and off in not much more time than regular shoes with covers and they will last longer than you will want to ride in sub freezing weather. Pretty much everyone in the group I ride with uses these when temps drop to the 20's or below - I've used them a few degrees below zero and have been quite comfortable. 

Amazon.com : Hotronic FootWarmer S4 Custom : Sports & Outdoors


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## namaSSte (Jul 28, 2004)

Update is that I wound up buying some 45Nrth Japanther boots and have been very happy with the purchase. I wrote an initial review on them over at MTBR (Initial impressions of 45NRTH Japanther boots inside...- Mtbr.com) if you want more info. I suppose I could add the Assos booties over them if needed but I'm not sure that would even accomplish much. Bottom line, I've been using these boots this week when temps have been in the low teens (single digit with windchill) and I can last about an hour and a half before becoming even a little uncomfortable. With some chem warmers, I am sure I could extend that in a meaningful way. I won't ride outside in colder weather so I'm good to go. Could have gone warmer with the Wolvhammers or something but I want to race in this boot as well so I wanted something a bit more lean. Thanks to all who chimed in with advice, it really helps!


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I found some good quality super cheap shoe covers.










They can be bought from China for less than $10 a pair.
Size medium fits tight on a 43 and can probably go down to 41 or so.
Size large fits over a medium on a 43 tightly but on it's own would be from size 44 to probably 46 or so.

The matching toe covers aren't as good because the holes are cut for SPD cleats and it's a real stretch to get SPD-SL in them. The full shoe covers though have a large and correctly located cut out.

They use an airblock type of fabric that's just like the stuff I've seen on many brands. Have some Hincapie gloves with very similar stuff and older Assos airblock stuff. They do well in the wet, they're warm, they're sturdy, they go on easy and come off easy, they fit okay (guy in the picture is wearing a size too big) and they're cheap.

Pro Tip: use a black sharpie on the white seams to drastically improve their gaudiness.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Here's an old Astronaut trick, and it's free if you have a kitchen:
Put a single sheet of aluminium foil between the shoe and the inner sole. The aluminium reflects the heat back to your foot. Also tape any metal hardware in the shoe so that the foil does not contact it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

kbwh said:


> Here's an old Astronaut trick, and it's free if you have a kitchen:
> Put a single sheet of aluminium foil between the shoe and the inner sole. The aluminium reflects the heat back to your foot. Also tape any metal hardware in the shoe so that the foil does not contact it.


You won't notice much of an effect doing it that way, you have to wrap your foot with the foil, but a plastic bag wrapping your foot will do the same thing. Either way your feet could sweat, and either way you need to put the AL foil or the plastic sheet over a wool sock covered foot. Next time on a ride try one foot with AL foil and the other with a Plastic wrap and see which is the warmest.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Well, froze. I've tested my method, and it works pretty well. Bagging the foot causes moist feet and moisture makes my feet cold.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

kbwh said:


> Well, froze. I've tested my method, and it works pretty well. Bagging the foot causes moist feet and moisture makes my feet cold.


exactly moisture will make your feet cold. I just think that if all you're doing is adding a foil to the foot bed that the coldness from outside will come through the shoe where the foil isn't which is the entire sides and top of the feet. BUT, I'v never tried your stunt so I can't say for certain.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

A friend uses electric socks, Lenz?, for about $300 a pair, to shoot skeet/stand on ice/concrete. He states that its the best money ever spent and that they keep him warm all evening. Might be worth a try? Being a cheap basturd,, I just freeze..


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## Bnystrom (Oct 27, 2007)

*Layers and plastic bags*



kbwh said:


> Well, froze. I've tested my method, and it works pretty well. Bagging the foot causes moist feet and moisture makes my feet cold.


If your feet sweat, you basically have a choice between getting damp and cold or getting very damp, but staying dry. Let me explain...

For cold temps off-road, I wear thin wool liners covered with plastic newspaper bags, with a heavy wool sock over them. This setup fits nicely into Lake MXZ303 shoes, which are insulated and completely windproof. I've worn this combination in temps around 10 degrees and my feet stayed warm.

The reason this works is that the sweat from my feet is trapped by the bags (vapor barriers) _before it can get to the thick, insulating sock_. While the liners and my feet get very damp, _all of my insulation (sock and shoe) stays dry_ and consequently, my feet stay warm.

Unfortunately, there are very few 3-bolt (road) winter shoes on the market and nothing as warm as the Lake303s (I want to use road cleats, so 2-bolt shoes are not an option). I don't generally ride the road when it's below freezing, so I don't need that much insulation anyway. If I can find a pair of left-over Japanther _road _shoes (they're discontinued), I may give them a try. Otherwise I'll probably have to go with Lake CX-145s or Specialized Defrosters. I haven't tried the Lakes, but I have tried the Defrosters and I'm not impressed with their really stiff uppers.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

duriel said:


> I think the problem here is that the bottom of the shoe is always open. Even if the booties are well insulated, the bottom of the shoe is conducting so much heat away that you can't tell if you're sensitive.
> Over size shoes, thick wool socks, & put plastic over my toes & front of the shoe (inside the shoe) to block wind, that is about as good as it can get. For me that would be a 36F start with a eye towards climbing temps. If it ain't getting warmer fast, I'm going skip that one.


I wore a pair of Sidi winter shoes for years. I recently got a pair of Lake 303 winter shoes. They come with a cushioned, thick insole that claims to conserve heat. I rode them with the insole and my feet never got cold. I wore them the next day without the insole, but with thick wool socks. My feet were frozen bricks within 10 miles. You can buy these insoles for $30. I'm going to order a pair for my Sidi winter shoes which lighter than the Lakes, but not as warm, for use on cool days.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Tape up all the hoes in your shoes, especially the sole vents. Take a toe warmer, place it ON THE OUTSIDE TOP OF THE SHOE OVER YOUR TOES. Now put a neoprene shoe cover on.


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## HyperCycle (Sep 5, 2012)

I wear regular, non-winter, Pearl Izumi mountain shoes for riding on my road bike. I don't like road bike shoes and prefer Speedplay Frogs for my clipless setup. I wear ski socks and cheap Teo Sport Windtex Shoe Covers ($35) with mountain shoes and NEVER have any issues with cold feet... even down to 10° F. For the mountain shoes, I bought a size larger in shoe covers and they fit perfectly. Actually, my feet are usually sweating after cold rides, even below 20° F.


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