# Sarto custom carbon Italian racing frames



## tallrider721

Hi all,

Please someone tell me if I am stepping out of bounds for posting this, though I have not yet seen rules specifying the protocols for vendors to post here. 

My name is Mark and I have a small pro shop in Northern California called Optimized Cycling Solutions. I have close relationships with Sarto for custom frames (100% made in Italy) and also ENVE composites, in addition to being a Campagnolo Pro-Shop. 

I helped to get Sarto established when the brand was first being introduced in the U.S. I was also sales rep for California last year, but we now have a distribution company set up so I am focused 100% now on my shop. 

I work with people on a client basis to find out exactly what kind of bike they are looking for. Once I have their body measurements and other data I create frame design which I send to Enrico Sarto, the owner and master frame builder (and son of the founder, Antonio Sarto). He reviews and the authorizes the design afterwhich the frame is built according to the selected tube recipe. 

We have 8 models in our Custom range, meaning the frame fit and geometry are custom, but the tube set is fixed. The Super Custom range allows us to select the actual tubes, in addition to the fit and geometry. There are three different famillies of tubes to choose from, and sometimes Enrico gets creative depending on the ride characteristics or demands the bike will be subjected to (I'm 6'4 for example). The bikes are literally tailor made (Sarto in Italian means "tailor"). 

The frames are built with tube to tube construction instead of being monocoque as are most, but not all, racing frames currently in production. They have been building customer frames for countless pro racing teams in Europe for nearly 50 years. And they still do. Their amazing manufacturing prowess and flexibility allow them to emulate the appearance of any monocoque frame in the pro peleton, but build it with custom geometry and fit.

The frames also come with the best warranty of any carbon frame in the world (to the best of my knowledge). Life time, and transferable. There is a micro chip located inside the seat tube of every Sarto frame that contains all the details of the build process of the frame. The assembly data, like component serial numbers (for Campy and many other manufacturers) will be subsequently added into the data on the chip as will future service records. I already capture an enormous amount of data for each clients bikes and wheels, so this is perfectly in line with the OCS business model.

I will post photos of some of the bikes and frames I have been working with lately. I received a new one today, to be built as a demo bike for my shop: the Kilogrammo. The bike with the yellow accents is a client bike that was recently displayed at the North American Handmade Bike Show (at the Sarto booth). 


I know this is long, but I still suspect there will be additional questions. Ask and I will do my best to respond accurately and promptly. 

My website is under (re)construction but my Facebook has an enormous number of photos. Google it and you will find it under Optimized Cycling Solutions.

Thanks for your patience if you’ve made it this far.

Regards,

Mark Stemmy
Optimized Cycling Solutions (owner)
Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists


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## paule11

Nice work attractive looking bikes


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## Cinelli 82220

*Bike Porn!*

That red one is gorgeous!

This kind of spam I don't mind.


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## PaxRomana

I don't mean to be a naysayer here, but these frames look suspiciously similar. Note the same notches on the rear tubes. The frames are somewhat different though. 

Karbona:










Sarto:


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## Jay Strongbow

PaxRomana said:


> I don't mean to be a naysayer here, but these frames look suspiciously similar. Note the same notches on the rear tubes. The frames are somewhat different though.
> 
> Karbona:
> 
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> Sarto:



Naturally all road bike will have some similarity but I don't think yu could have piacked one much more different. seriously dude, what to heck are you looking at.

anyway, sharp looking bikes


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## PaxRomana

Jay Strongbow said:


> Naturally all road bike will have some similarity but I don't think yu could have piacked one much more different. seriously dude, what to heck are you looking at.
> 
> anyway, sharp looking bikes


Look at the chain stays and rear stays a bit closer.


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## aclinjury

^ so are you saying or implying that Sarto is another seller of (presumably) ebay-Chinese mass produced frames?

And I'm sure you probably know this, but there are tons of Chinarello Dogma that look closer to the real Dogma than what you posted above.


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## PaxRomana

aclinjury said:


> ^ so are you saying or implying that Sarto is another seller of (presumably) ebay-Chinese mass produced frames?
> 
> And I'm sure you probably know this, but there are tons of Chinarello Dogma that look closer to the real Dogma than what you posted above.


1. Not at all. I have no idea about Sarto. I'm always skeptical though. Caveat emptor.
2. Yes, I'm aware of that.


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## Ride-Fly

Sarto is/was the guy contracted to build Javelin's top-of-the-line carbon bike called the Cortina, which had a MSRP of greater than $10K for the frameset! The medium Cortina is purported to be less than 850 gms. There was one that sold on ebay for $2500 about 2 years ago IIRC. 

Anyhow, these new ones look pretty sweet. Hey tallrider, good luck with your business! What else are you carrying in the shop?


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## PaxRomana

Looking at their site more closely, it does indeed appear that they do make their frames in Italy. Quite rare in this day and age.


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## Dan333sp

The latest issue of Road Bike Action magazine actually has a review on the Sarto Classica, where they mention that they watched the frames being hand built in Italy in the company's shop. I wouldn't worry about it being a Chinese knock off... FWIW, they loved the bike, and those others pictured above are very, very nice.


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## svard75

Wow drool. Some nice stuff coming out of Italy!


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## tallrider721

PaxRomana said:


> I don't mean to be a naysayer here, but these frames look suspiciously similar. Note the same notches on the rear tubes. The frames are somewhat different though.
> 
> Karbona:
> 
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> 
> Sarto:



Asian manufacturers have been copying western bicycle designs for decades. Of course styling trends can flow either direction across the ocean, but generally the Italians are trend setters, in style if not also function. 

In this case you are basically calling me a liar, though. I understand that there is a great deal of incredulity on the internet these days. However, I have listed a lot of specific information and examples. I can supply a lot more. This is 100% for real and so is the quality of the frames. If we were having a conversation in person I could tell you the pro teams that were riding Sarto frames last year. There was at least one Pro tour team and a 1st Division team that had a former two time winner of the Giro d'Italia. Also, the rider that has the most Grand Tour wins of anyone currently still in the peleton also rides a Sarto. He is a private client and must ride a custom frame (it has always been written into his contract, from what I understand). 

The problem is that there are so many different shapes of bicycle frames these days, and most are made using a mold for the main sections of the frame. This style of construction means there is little to no ability to do custom geometry or fit. Sarto has been a supplier for other frame builders (in the past, Bottecchia, Guerciotti, Fondriest, Alberto Masi, Scapin and Corratech to name a few) as well as race teams and individual riders. This was easier to accomplish in the days of steel. In the last 10 years Sarto has learned how to create frames using the tube to tube style of construction. The tubes are mitered, put into a jig for alignment, bonded with epoxy to hold them in position (almost like tack brazing) then they joints are wrapped with carbon fiber fabric. They control the amount of carbon wrap, the modulus used and how far that wrap extends out from the junction of the tubes. Usually it tapers out smoothly, leaving a joint that looks like it was fillet brazed. The joints are smoothed by Italian craftsman with emery cloth so that they flow organically from one tube to the next. I will show pics of the tubes, a cutaway of a Sarto frame and also close up photos that show the way the carbon was layed, which is visible under the clear coat. 

When I design a frame, I measure it when it arrives at my shop. I also make a diagram of it using BikeCAD Pro and compare it to the diagram I created originally for the frame (also using BikeCAD Pro). Every frame so far has been within 1-2mm in every vector. It's remarkable. Now this is not to say that the bikes are flawless. They are a handmade product and have the small imperfections that any Italian hand made product might have. A ripple in the clear coat. A bit of overspray on the fork. Little things. Remember that this is a race factory. These frames remind me a lot of Ferrari vehicles, particularly back in the days when their race operations and road car production were more closely related. Every single Sarto is one of a kind. 

I hope I didn't sound too defensive earlier. However, I considered the phrasing of your questions as rude and lacking in any real foundation. The photos you showed show only a vague reseblance. Sarto has the capability to make a bike look like anything, as long as they have a paying client who will order more than 50 frames. That's about the amount that a pro team uses during a season. 

Also, one of the most reputable custom carbon frame builders in the U.S. has been buying Sarto frames for his "production" frames since they look so similar and the quality is on par, for the last 10 months. Sarto is a subcontractor like many of the Asian manufacturers that supply Specialized, Trek, Colnago, Pinarello, etc. Only in this case they are on the opposite end of the quality and volume side of things. They have 15 craftsmen in a factory located 20km west of Venice, Italy and they produce about 2500 frames a year. 

Enrico Sarto and his father, Antonio (the founder) have created a business model that combines the best of the old school apprenticeship model along with modern technology to an amazing result. This may not carry much weight, but all the industry insiders I've talked to from Europe say that Sarto, Cyfac and DeRosa are the undesputed best frame builders in Europe and the ones that have made most of the pro racing bikes in the peleton for decades. It does not happen quite as often now, as it used to, because the shapes of the frame, again, are so visually recognizable. 

Sarto, based on what I've seen and what I know, can make anything. AND, they make it ride properly too. The bikes have a very lively feel, not dead like so many carbon frames. But when I have asked shop owners or other industry insiders who have had a chance to ride a Sarto about the ride quality the first word they say (no BS) is "smooth". Seems like a kind of buzzword or hype, but I can tell you from riding MY custom Sarto that it does everything better than every bike I've ever ridden during my 32 years in this sport. 

Anyway, this has become a full on diatribe. I applogize for these long posts. But the Sarto story is long and rich. And 100% real. 

Let me know if you have any further questions and no hard feelings.

Mark Stemmy
Optimized Cycling Solutions
3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
Cameron Park, CA 95682
(530)363-2697
[email protected]
Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


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## tallrider721

Ride-Fly said:


> Sarto is/was the guy contracted to build Javelin's top-of-the-line carbon bike called the Cortina, which had a MSRP of greater than $10K for the frameset! The medium Cortina is purported to be less than 850 gms. There was one that sold on ebay for $2500 about 2 years ago IIRC.
> 
> Anyhow, these new ones look pretty sweet. Hey tallrider, good luck with your business! What else are you carrying in the shop?


Thanks Ride-Fly! It's funny that you mention the Javelin. I met a guy at a local race last year that used to work for Javelin. The MSRP was actually closer to $11k for the frame alone. It had honeycomb inside the tubes and was a very complex build. He said he visited the factory and that the Sarto family was incredibly accomodating. He also told me that he had a custom Sarto built for himself (he's nearly 6'6") while he was there, and he also had a Javelin. He said the Sarto was the best bike he's ever owned, better even than the Javelin. However, I noticed he was racing the Javelin that day in the Cat 3 event, a criterium. I asked him why he wasn't riding his Sarto, and he simply responded, "It's too precious".

Right now I am mostly carrying Sarto because I emphasize custom. I've spoken to Richard Sachs about doing some steel frames for me, but they would have to be branded with my shop name and it would need to make fiscal sense to do so. However, Richard embodies the kind of perfection I look for in the products I will sell. I am really looking to emphasize quality, function and cohesive design in the bicycles I sell. Sarto right now serves all my immediate needs, though I am keeping my option open also. The fact is that I have a strong relationship with Enrico Sarto himself after spending time with him at Interbike last year and again at NAHBS this year in Sacramento. He is the real deal, one of the most knowledgeable yet down to earth people I've ever met in this busines. But still with some Italian cool. Great guy. And I have complete faith in his team. 

Mark Stemmy
Optimized Cycling Solutions
3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
Cameron Park, CA 95682
(530)363-2697
[email protected]
Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


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## PaxRomana

This is great info, Mark. Thank you for clarifying. It's great to see another hand-made Italian bike manufacturer. I am considering a Pelizzoli Carbon 11 frame, but I will consider Sarto now as well.


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## willieboy

Beautiful to say the least. On my radar now. Thanks for posting.


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## tallrider721

*No problem....*



PaxRomana said:


> This is great info, Mark. Thank you for clarifying. It's great to see another hand-made Italian bike manufacturer. I am considering a Pelizzoli Carbon 11 frame, but I will consider Sarto now as well.


No problem my friend, and again, I understand the doubt factor in our industry right now. The fact is that Sarto has survived a very dark period in the Italian bike industry. They really are doing things right and combining the old ways and new. They do a lot of testing and provide a quantifiable stiffness rating for every model of frame they make. No conjecture, just data. I worked at Intel for 15 years. I employ a very detail oriented and methodical approach to everything I do in my shop. Sarto allows me to literally create people's dreams. At least with regards to bikes. 

By the way, they make TT/Tri frame made to measure also. Their TT frames also use tube to tube construction but the frame segments are just larger. Up to an 80 degree seat tube angle is possible and it means no more inbetween sizes on top tube length. Not everyone needs custom TT frame, but for those who don't seem to fit on any stock size TT bike, Sarto is a natural choice. The photo is of Maxim Kriat, one of our sponsored athletes. He has won and got top 3 at numerous short course professional triathlons in the last year and a half on Sarto TT bikes.

They also do MTB bikes, track bikes, cross bikes (available with disc brakes) all in custom geometry and fit.

I know. It seems to good to be true, but it's actually the real deal. 

Mark


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## Ventruck

Some nice looking stuff. 

Curious: The Cima Coppi frameset is 660g for a 54? Or is it just the frame? Nonetheless is it's the latter that's still nice for given the custom option.


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## tallrider721

The frame is 660-700 grams depending on size. The fork is about 330 grams, but I will have one in the shop next week to provide an accurate weight.


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## Ride-Fly

PaxRomana said:


> a Pelizzoli Carbon 11 frame


 Huh?!?!?! 

Giovanni is making a carbon frame??? It's not on their website. Where did you hear of this?

I have wondered how many Italian builders actually build their carbon offerings in Italy. I know Colnago's top-of-the-line frames are made in Italy. The original Fondriests' top frame the TF1 Top Carbon was definitely hand-laid carbon and hand made in Italy by Minardi. The new Fondriest company claims that their TF1 and the TF Zero frames are made in Italy. Also, Tommasini, Viner, and Basso claim that their carbon frames are as well. I've seen a small company called Bartoli who has a frame that looks just like the Javelin Cortina and is also made of honeycomb carbon which made think that those Bartoli frames were made by Sarto too. I think De Rosa also makes their top line frames in Italy too- Kings, Neo Pros, Idols, etc. Anyone know of others that I am missing???

Anyhow, sorry for drifting. Back to the Sarto! How long have they been doing carbon? I've never heard of Sarto before they became associated with making Javelin's Cortina. Did they contract out steel too? Because I don't recall ever hearing of steel Sartos either.

Also, Nick Crumpton added to his line of frame offerings by contracting out off-the-shelf frames from Italy. Thought it may have been Sarto that was building for Crumpton because of Nick's statement "we partnered with one of Italy's finest carbon frame builders." I assumed that meant Sarto.  

Tallrider, how much are the Sartos going for? How many different models are there? As far as looks go, I personally like the last all black one the best. With the money I'll get from the $640M lottery, I'll definitely be ordering one from you!


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## tallrider721

I didn't see a carbon frame either on the Pelizzoli website, but it was interesting to be sure. 

I'm not supposed to talk of such things on these message boards, but some the things you said about Sarto building for others are for sure true, though I won't specify. Obviously you are someone who talks to a lot of the right people. 

The Custom range frames are going for around $6k now (depending on paint and options) and there are a lot of models. At least 8 models just in the road category. There are also 3 TT models, a 26er and 29er in MTB, cyclocross frame, track frame and there are at least 4 models of stock bikes too. The stock models "only" come in 6 sizes instead of being custom, but they are built with exactly the same tube to tube construction, in the same factory in Italy and also with a same life time transferable warranty. They run between about $2500 for the Squadra Corsa up to about $3800 for the Davanti, which is shown in the photos above (all red bike). It used to be a top of the line model, the Cima Coppi. However, that model name is reserved for the top of the line racing frame. That model is the frame that now weighs well under 700 grams. The Davanti allows someone who doesn't require custom geometry, to buy a top level frame but save a couple grand. I have a Davanti in stock (54cm) ready for test riding. Spec'ed with Chorus and Fulcrum racing 3's it costs about $7,500 and weighs 15.5lbs. 

The frame you like is the Kilogrammo. That one just arrived at the shop yesterday. It is also a bike for stock that I will build up to be test ridden by potential clients. It is a 58cm and is built with the geometry that I like, with a slightly longer top tube and slightly steeper head tube angle. It is an astonishingly attractive bike frame. All these bikes have a lot of presence. But the Kilogrammo just takes your breath away. 

Oh, and you better check on that ticket. There's at least 3 folks out there claiming to have the winnng numbers. If you find it, give me a jingle. We will build you something very, very special.


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## Ride-Fly

tallrider721 said:


> I didn't see a carbon frame either on the Pelizzoli website, but it was interesting to be sure.
> 
> I'm not supposed to talk of such things on these message boards, but some the things you said about Sarto building for others are for sure true, though I won't specify. Obviously you are someone who talks to a lot of the right people.
> 
> The Custom range frames are going for around $6k now (depending on paint and options) and there are a lot of models. At least 8 models just in the road category. There are also 3 TT models, a 26er and 29er in MTB, cyclocross frame, track frame and there are at least 4 models of stock bikes too. The stock models "only" come in 6 sizes instead of being custom, but they are built with exactly the same tube to tube construction, in the same factory in Italy and also with a same life time transferable warranty. They run between about $2500 for the Squadra Corsa up to about $3800 for the Davanti, which is shown in the photos above (all red bike). It used to be a top of the line model, the Cima Coppi. However, that model name is reserved for the top of the line racing frame. That model is the frame that now weighs well under 700 grams. The Davanti allows someone who doesn't require custom geometry, to buy a top level frame but save a couple grand. I have a Davanti in stock (54cm) ready for test riding. Spec'ed with Chorus and Fulcrum racing 3's it costs about $7,500 and weighs 15.5lbs.
> 
> The frame you like is the Kilogrammo. That one just arrived at the shop yesterday. It is also a bike for stock that I will build up to be test ridden by potential clients. It is a 58cm and is built with the geometry that I like, with a slightly longer top tube and slightly steeper head tube angle. It is an astonishingly attractive bike frame. All these bikes have a lot of presence. But the Kilogrammo just takes your breath away.
> 
> Oh, and you better check on that ticket. There's at least 3 folks out there claiming to have the winnng numbers. If you find it, give me a jingle. We will build you something very, very special.


The Kilogrammo is sweet looking! But so is the Davanti! 

I knew the Bartoli frames were made by Sarto!!! (You didn't have to tell me- I figured it out myself.)

Which one of their frames are 700 gms? I hope it's the Kilogrammo but judging by its name, I would guess that it weighs about a kilogram???


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## tallrider721

*The Cima Coppi is the lightest Sarto frame*



Ride-Fly said:


> The Kilogrammo is sweet looking! But so is the Davanti!
> 
> I knew the Bartoli frames were made by Sarto!!! (You didn't have to tell me- I figured it out myself.)
> 
> Which one of their frames are 700 gms? I hope it's the Kilogrammo but judging by its name, I would guess that it weighs about a kilogram???


The sub 700gm frame is called the Cima Coppi. It's a bit confusing because when it was first introduced to the public at Interbike last year it was called the Leggerissima. I sold one to a client and it will be arriving in my shop next week. The attached photo is of my clients frame, before clear coat has been applied. This was a photo taken to allow my client a chance to review all graphics before getting clear. It is a complex paint job and is for her business, so she was quite particular. The painter, Antonio, did a fantastic job getting every detail right. My client is extremely happy.

The Kilogrammo I received yesterday is a 58cm and weighed in at 1222gms. Paint for a frame that size is about 100gms and the tubes are just so massive. I would not want this particular frame to be any lighter. There is such a thing as "appropriate weight" for a given application. There are a lot of factors that are considered when configuring a frame for someone. 

With such a vast number of options, I spend a lot of time interviewing my clients and also evaluating their current bike and setup. I always try to capture a photo of their current bike, import that photo into BikeCAD and then analyze the entire setup. I look at things like the geometry (head tube and seat tube angles), fork trail, offsets with saddle and handlebar to adjust for an illfitting frame, etc. I also take a clients body measurements and then create a diagram for them, purely based off their body geometry and also the result of my interview process with them. 

For example, if someone says, "I love my Colnago, and if fits me perfect, but the stearing seems a bit sluggish", I would look at designing something similar to the Colnago, but with a steeper head tube angle and/or less fork rake (offset). I can play with all of these variables in BikeCAD and look at the various relationships between each area of the bike, including things like toe overlap, which is an issue for shorter riders. Once this process is complete we choose the model of frame that has the correct properties that the rider is looking for with regard to stiffness, comfort, durability, etc. 

The structural needs for someone 5'0", 110lbs is going to be very different from someone like me who is 6'4", 225lbs. Particularly if she is going to be mostly riding club rides on smooth bike trails and I will be racing events like Copperoppolis and the Madera Stage Race. My Sarto frame is an Ultra Forte and weighs 1340 grams. And it is much lighter than I expected, based on what I told Enrico when building my frame. I told him that I wanted the strongest, stiffest frame possible, for someone my size (I take a 61.5cm). I told him I was not concerned with compliance or light weight, I wanted it to have superior stablility and power transfer. 

The bike he built for me achieved all the requirements that I had, but as a bonus, it was much smoother than I anticipated and about 150 grams lighter. It simply does everything well. And I can tell you that riding a frame built specifically for you is unlike riding anything else. I don't think it even matters what the material is (Sarto is one again building with steel again, by the way). Custom makes all the difference. 

The first photo attached here is my bike. The other bike is the Leggerissima (now called Cima Coppi) for my client. I expect her frame to weigh about 770gm due to the fact it will be painted and has a seat mast. It should arrive by Friday of nex week. 

Mark


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## tallrider721

*Extra credit*



Ride-Fly said:


> The Kilogrammo is sweet looking! But so is the Davanti!
> 
> I knew the Bartoli frames were made by Sarto!!! (You didn't have to tell me- I figured it out myself.)
> 
> Which one of their frames are 700 gms? I hope it's the Kilogrammo but judging by its name, I would guess that it weighs about a kilogram???


Well, there will be extra credit if you can use your deductive powers and tell me which Pro Tour team rode Sarto last year. Hint, the frame configuration (tube selection) looked similar to the Davanti. 


Mark Stemmy
Optimized Cycling Solutions
3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
Cameron Park, CA 95682
(530)363-2697
[email protected]
Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


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## Cinelli 82220

Ride-Fly said:


> Giovanni is making a carbon frame??? It's not on their website. Where did you hear of this?


There were pics of it on Pellizoli's blog.

Cipollini also has carbon frames made for them in Florence, but I don't know who does them.


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## PaxRomana

Ride-Fly said:


> Huh?!?!?!
> 
> Giovanni is making a carbon frame??? It's not on their website. Where did you hear of this?


It's on his website. More importantly, it's on a Youtube video that describes the tube construction.

I had no idea, actually, until I heard about this from Mike at Maestro. I admit that I saw a picture of the Carbon 11 with the green decals and was instantly smitten.

Giovanni is getting up there in age. I don't know how much longer he will be making frames, which is really a shame. His Ciocc frames are recognized around the world. 

I am leaning towards the Aeta simply because it's such a stunning frame for steel.

Anyway, here is the carbon frame I really like.


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## PaxRomana

I forgot the link. Here is the link. GP has started selling through distributors now, so Mike's price is 2200 Euros for the Carbon 11 frameset. Not bad for a handmade Italian frameset.

The framebuilder today | PELIZZOLI world

Delivery time is about 60 days from your order, I think. The geometry is custom.


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## tallrider721

PaxRomana said:


> It's on his website. More importantly, it's on a Youtube video that describes the tube construction.
> 
> I had no idea, actually, until I heard about this from Mike at Maestro. I admit that I saw a picture of the Carbon 11 with the green decals and was instantly smitten.
> 
> Giovanni is getting up there in age. I don't know how much longer he will be making frames, which is really a shame. His Ciocc frames are recognized around the world.
> 
> I am leaning towards the Aeta simply because it's such a stunning frame for steel.
> 
> Anyway, here is the carbon frame I really like.


The one thing that stands out to me about that frame is the rear dropouts are aluminum and then appear to be bonded into the carbon stays. This is a tricky method to do correcty on modern frame with tube wall thicknesses being so minimal and the emphasis on light weight. The Sarto solution is so have the dropout area be actually formed as part of the chainstay. Then, there are protrusions above where the seat stays are bonded. There is a lot of overlap between that protrusion and the tubing of the seat stay but then they wrap it with more carbon so it becomes one unit. 

The dropout arrangement is a sandwich, with the carbon portion positioned between a one piece aluminum replaceable droppout. The dropout creates a "sandwich" which is both very strong, but also controls the mechanical damage done just by using quick releases and mounting wheels. Sarto frames come with the same replaceable dropout on both sides also, not just the right (derailleur) side. And if you ever crashed bad enough to damage the inner carbon portion, it is highly repairable. Sarto frames are for life, You don't just toss it, like an Asian frame, after it's been crashed. 

I would assume that Pelizzoli has done some testing and is confident that the frames are solid. What else do you know about the design? I haven't found much about it yet.

Mark


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## Bill2

Cinelli 82220 said:


> There were pics of it on Pellizoli's blog.
> 
> Cipollini also has carbon frames made for them in Florence, but I don't know who does them.


Cipolini bikes made by ZMM Compositi
video_lg


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## Bill2

Ride-Fly said:


> Huh?!?!?!
> 
> Giovanni is making a carbon frame??? It's not on their website. Where did you hear of this?
> 
> I have wondered how many Italian builders actually build their carbon offerings in Italy. I know Colnago's top-of-the-line frames are made in Italy. The original Fondriests' top frame the TF1 Top Carbon was definitely hand-laid carbon and hand made in Italy by Minardi. The new Fondriest company claims that their TF1 and the TF Zero frames are made in Italy. Also, Tommasini, Viner, and Basso claim that their carbon frames are as well. I've seen a small company called Bartoli who has a frame that looks just like the Javelin Cortina and is also made of honeycomb carbon which made think that those Bartoli frames were made by Sarto too. I think De Rosa also makes their top line frames in Italy too- Kings, Neo Pros, Idols, etc. Anyone know of others that I am missing???
> 
> Anyhow, sorry for drifting. Back to the Sarto! How long have they been doing carbon? I've never heard of Sarto before they became associated with making Javelin's Cortina. Did they contract out steel too? Because I don't recall ever hearing of steel Sartos either.
> 
> Also, Nick Crumpton added to his line of frame offerings by contracting out off-the-shelf frames from Italy. Thought it may have been Sarto that was building for Crumpton because of Nick's statement "we partnered with one of Italy's finest carbon frame builders." I assumed that meant Sarto.
> 
> Tallrider, how much are the Sartos going for? How many different models are there? As far as looks go, I personally like the last all black one the best. With the money I'll get from the $640M lottery, I'll definitely be ordering one from you!


Marco Bertoletti in Bergamo builds Legend bikes, as well as Viner Maxima RS2, and other carbon frames under various legendary Italian badges.
Legend factory
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002196483505


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## V70R

Just wanted to add my two cents on this- Craftsmanship and quality from what you get for the price with the Sarto brand is hard to beat, and includes TRANSFERABLE lifetime warranty on their entire lineup. Mark has been excellent to do business with, highly recommended for anyone looking into the Sarto line.

-Tyler


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## PaxRomana

I don't know much about Pelizzoli's carbon frames. Of course, his steel frames are legendary, both as Ciocc and as a framebuilder for Mascaghi and others.


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## chirobike

I'll add that this is a legitimate custom builder. I was first intrigued when I was figuring out who was building Wyndimilla brand frames in the UK. After some research I figured it must be Sarto in Italy and w/o confirmation I think I'm right. At any rate there are some pics on the net (hard to find) that demonstrate the care and expertise they have in building a custom carbon frame. They know what they are doing and if you have the $$ it might be worth it.


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## Ride-Fly

tallrider721 said:


> Well, there will be extra credit if you can use your deductive powers and tell me which Pro Tour team rode Sarto last year. Hint, the frame configuration (tube selection) looked similar to the Davanti.
> 
> 
> Mark Stemmy
> Optimized Cycling Solutions
> 3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> (530)363-2697
> [email protected]
> Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
> Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
> Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


I've got no chance in valhalla! I don't follow pro cycling very closely. I love the grand tours but pro tour teams and the US cycling scene- don't have the opportunity to see those as much. 

So which team is it? Are they on re-badged Fujis? 

BTW, I like the Classico! I just love the classic looks- even in carbon frames. But the Cima Coppi is the one I am really intrigued by.


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## tallrider721

OK, no extra credit for identifying the pro team (and no I can't blast it here), but you get partial extra credit for appeciating the Classico and Cima Coppi. Even last years Cima Coppi (now called Davanti) is one of my favorite Sarto frames, but yes, the new Cima Coppi is just incredible. I will have one in the shop by early next week (could be here as early as Friday, but it’s being shipped directly from Italy). 

Some of the best custom frame builders in North America were in the Sarto booth last year, badgering Enrico with two primary questions: what is the carbon type used in the seat stays, and, are those frame tubes and components available to source for their own use. I asked Enrico myself about it later. He told me a lot of “industry secrets” during that week, but not that. He has contacts with numerous very high level carbon manufacturers in Italy that they either source tubing or carbon fabric from. 

Most of the Sarto tubes that are round are sourced from aerospace carbon manufacturers in a factory not far from the town where the Sarto factory is located. 
However, the most complex, highly shaped tubes are manufactured in house due to their proprietary nature, including the seat and chain stays on the current Cima Coppi. I’m not sure there are any good photos that show how special they are. Not only are they very slender, but they twist near the bottom and top such that the rectangular cross section is oriented at a 45 degree angle. I will post a photo I took last year, as well as a crop to show the detail of the twisted seat stays. The shape of the profile is basically a rectangular box with soft corners. I will say that the very tight weave of the external layer of carbon is very exotic looking, if that makes sense. 

I will post photos of my client’s frame once it arrives. It will be painted about 40% with color, with the remaining 60% of the surface area having gloss clear coat. Yes, I know. It’s one of the lightest frames in the world but we are adding at least 100gms just with paint. However, this is a lifetime purchase for my client. The type of paint used will be serviceable for probably 15 years, assuming she continues to wax the frame 2X a year and takes care of it. I use Meguiar’s Gold Class Carnuba Plus car wax when the frames first arrive and then Meguiar’s Cleaner Wax after that for subsequent cleanings. That way you can keep the bike looking nearly new for a decade or more.


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## PaxRomana

What are the prices of these frames?


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## tallrider721

There are a lot of options from Sarto. Probably too many, in some respects. However, it gives me, personally, the ability to really tailor a bike specifically for each person. I'm pretty sure Sarto offers more options than any other custom builder in the world. And yes, that is a pretty extreme statement.

The pricing I just receives is as follows for frames that have stock geometry (6 sizes) but are available in custom fit and geometry for $1000 extra. However, there are also a whole other range of frames, like the Kilogrammo, which are available in cusom only. Those frames range from about $5800 - $7000 with nearly every option you can list including: BB30 or BB86.5, internal routing, seat mast, Di2 routing, Italian or American paint, etc. 

Here is a list of prices for the "stock" frames:

Davanti (900gms, pro frame): $5500 ($6500 in custom)

Cima Coppi (700gms, ultra light frame): $6000 ($7000 in custom) 

Classica (1200gms, traditional geometry): $3300 ($4300 in custom)

Brezzia (1150gms, see comment* frame): $3200 ($4200 in custom)

*The Brezzia used to be called the Leggera. It is an excellent frame, but uses a slightly lower modulus tube set than the Davanti or Cima Coppi. I sold one last year and they are amazing.


I have a meeting tomorrow morning with my friend, the importer, to get the up to date pricing for the "custom only" range of frames. Models in that range include: 

Estimated Pricing (this may vary a lot)
Vipera (1050gms, stout race frame) $6300

Kilogrammo (1160gms, stable but comfortable) $6600

Forte (1250gms, built for large riders) $7000


I am extrapolating based on last fall's price list. These prices should be within a couple hundred bucks I should think. The Forte is what I ride with, and it has extra carbon wrap at the joints so that it has more strength, but also has nice visual cue. It ends up looking like a very thin lug and they are generally terminate to a chevron pattern. It provides a great opportunity for painting the "lugs" and then clear coating the rest of the frame. I had mine done in red. Another client had hers done in Tour de France yellow (or something similar). 

I will post the actual pricing for the custom only range bikes as soon as it becomes available.

Mark Stemmy
Optimized Cycling Solutions
3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
Cameron Park, CA 95682
(530)363-2697
[email protected]
Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


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## tallrider721

By the way, all weights are for no paint and with regular seat tube (not extended).

Also, the frame shown, the Leggerissima, is now called the Cima Coppi.


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## PaxRomana

You have to be kidding me with those prices. 

My interest just went to zero. I think I'll stick with Time.

Thanks for posting the prices anyway.


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## tallrider721

Does Time offer custom geometry? You understand we are talking about custom here. Not just custom paint, but custom geometry and fit. It is possible that you haven't researched the market of what is availble in custom carbon in the U.S. It can be a bit of sticker shock. But believe it or not, compared to what is offered out there from Seven, Serrotta, Cyfec (the best of this bunch), Parlee, and a few others, these frames may actually be under priced. I called on some of the best bike shops in the state of California and spoke to their managers and owners about this very subject. Every single one of them said these frames were way underpriced (and that was last year when the prices were lower).

These are bespoken bikes. Not for everyone.

The most important thing when selecting a bike is to get one that is safe, fits properly and make you happy when you ride it.

Goodluck in your search and again no hard feeling. 

Mark Stemmy
Optimized Cycling Solutions
3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
Cameron Park, CA 95682
(530)363-2697
[email protected]
Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


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## Ride-Fly

I want the Cima Coppi, but unfortunately, I am not one who would ever pay that much for any frame. The Classica, however is in a price range that I would pay for, and I love the looks of classic bikes. 

One question on the prices, it is for the frame only, and does not include a fork, correct??? 

In the case of the Classica, my eyes tell me it's the same main frame that Crumpton is importing and selling as his Corsa Team model for $3900 for frame, fork, and headset. The only difference being the Corsa's unique seatstays. If the Classica goes for $3300 for the frame, and then you add in a comparable fork (like Enve 1.0) for $400 to $600, and a CK headset for $100, you basically come out about the same. Nothing against Nick, but I always prefer to have the real manufacturer of a frame on its downtube over the re-sellers, no matter the reputation of the re-seller. Nick is probably the best custom carbon builder in America and I would love to have one of his SL Road or Corsa M frames. But between the Corsa Team and the Classica, I would rather have the Classica. The same logic would have me pick a Parlee over a Hampsten, who uses Parlee to build frames to his customer's specs. Steve Hampsten enjoys a stellar reputation and has a strong following, but I'd rather have the Parlee name on the downtube.


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## tallrider721

Ride-Fly,

All prices include frame, fork, and head set (generally FSA). 

Mark


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## tallrider721

Ride-Fly said:


> I want the Cima Coppi, but unfortunately, I am not one who would ever pay that much for any frame. The Classica, however is in a price range that I would pay for, and I love the looks of classic bikes.
> 
> One question on the prices, it is for the frame only, and does not include a fork, correct???
> 
> In the case of the Classica, my eyes tell me it's the same main frame that Crumpton is importing and selling as his Corsa Team model for $3900 for frame, fork, and headset. The only difference being the Corsa's unique seatstays. If the Classica goes for $3300 for the frame, and then you add in a comparable fork (like Enve 1.0) for $400 to $600, and a CK headset for $100, you basically come out about the same. Nothing against Nick, but I always prefer to have the real manufacturer of a frame on its downtube over the re-sellers, no matter the reputation of the re-seller. Nick is probably the best custom carbon builder in America and I would love to have one of his SL Road or Corsa M frames. But between the Corsa Team and the Classica, I would rather have the Classica. The same logic would have me pick a Parlee over a Hampsten, who uses Parlee to build frames to his customer's specs. Steve Hampsten enjoys a stellar reputation and has a strong following, but I'd rather have the Parlee name on the downtube.


You are a very cagey guy. I can't comment on the Crumpton connection directly, but you have a very discerning eye.

I will say that the manufacturers that I have spoken to directly that are Sarto customers are very happy with the output. 

Bob Parlee makes excellent frames, but they are also in the $5k-$7K range for a top level custom frame. However, most of his tubes are round and of limited diameter. Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course, but it's a bit more limiting when trying to create a dream bike for someone. 

Fly, if you are able so send me your body measurements I can run your numbers and see which frame would be the best fit for you, or determine whether you might want to consider custom. 

Mark


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## Bill2

What is American or Italian paint?


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## PaxRomana

Even the stock frames are overpriced, IMO. Why would I pay $6,000 from a relatively unknown manufacturer when I can get that from a company like Time, whose manufacturing process is legendary. 

Moreover, why would I pay that from Sarto, when I can get Pelizzoli's custom frames for half that price? His price is 2200 Euros. 

Again, to each his own. I certainly hope your business succeeds. No hard feelings at all.


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## Bill2

This fellow's Sarto cost a bit less
http://www.bdc-forum.it/showthread.php?t=85956&highlight=prezzo&page=7


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## PaxRomana

Bill2 said:


> This fellow's Sarto cost a bit less
> http://www.bdc-forum.it/showthread.php?t=85956&highlight=prezzo&page=7


Yep. Basically half of the prices quoted above. 
One poster says he built up his 900G Sarto with Ultegra Di2, Keo carbons, etc. without wheels for 4000 Euros. That's less than the frame prices listed here.


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## tallrider721

I don't have direct access to the prices in Europe and the prices have increased substantially in the last few months due to changes in the infrastructure of how the frames are imported and distributed. I have no control over this. 

The prices I see listed in the thread you linked are all from Europe and of course will be lower, for various reasons. I understand that a lot of folks are looking for a deal and the lowest price, on any product, regardless of the source or how it might effect the supply chain for a brand. However, with hand made bicycles I feel that it is a special set of services and when someone purchases a bicycle from me it is coming with a lot more than just the hardware. 

It's interesting to read these kinds of comments because most of the potential clients I deal with seem to understand the difference of making such a bicycle purchase with someone who takes a professional approach to the entire process of designing and building the frame. Quite honestly, the folks I deal with don't even ask much about price. They just want it right. They have very high expectations and are usually people who are high achievers in other areas of life, such that they can afford to be more selective. If price is a critical issue, then yes, Sarto may not be a good fit for you. There are lot of good options out there for decent prices (it's all relative of course). However, there is a lot of risk out there also. I've been doing this a long time and in my opinion Sarto, even at the prices I listed, offers excellent value, again, relative to their market segment. 

I will be honest Pax, it seems to me that you have made every effort to derail and hi-jack this tread from the first day I posted. Perhaps it's just been a while since I have been on one of these boards and I'm off base. If so, I appologize. Understand, though, that this is very serious business to me. Also, I try to always conduct myself in the most honorable and professional manner. My clients can expect the same from me. 

I was informed that there were questions being asked about Sarto bikes on this forum. I came on here to answer those questions, in good faith. 

Good luck in your search.

Mark


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## tallrider721

*American paint for Sarto: OCS version*



Bill2 said:


> What is American or Italian paint?


Bill, this is an example of American paint. This guy does most of his detail work by hand, with a brush. He is a true artist, but the cost is much greater than the Italian paint. All paint designs are by quote, so there is no fixed cost, but it ranges from $1200 extra to $2500 or more, depending on the complexity. I have a painter lined up to potentially do some bikes that have paint jobs that are more reminiscent of classic cars (think Bugatti Atlantic, Cord, Talbot, etc). He does world class show cars and motorcycles and I believe that will be a nice option to offer. Response has been favorable at this point from potential clients and current clients. 

By the way, my OCS logo was painted with a brush also. Then the "shine" at the top of the black sphere was air brushed. 

I will also post some photos of Italian paint. 

Mark


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## tallrider721

Bill2 said:


> What is American or Italian paint?


Here are some examples of Italian paint. They do not do as well with all the details of a very complex paint job (though the frame that will arrive next week was fairly complex and was done in Italy), but the clear coat is outstanding. They do better with team type paint jobs with large slashes of color or with pin striping of various kinds. The quality of the paint itself is good. The red at the joints of my bike is every bit as rich and lusterous as most Ferrari road cars. 

The Kilogrammo I just received also has Italian paint. I am very happy with the final effect. And everyone who has seen the bike in person, even non-bike people, are really stunned when they see it. They are really special objects, these frames. 

Mark


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## orange_julius

tallrider721 said:


> I don't have direct access to the prices in Europe and the prices have increased substantially in the last few months due to changes in the infrastructure of how the frames are imported and distributed. I have no control over this.
> 
> The prices I see listed in the thread you linked are all from Europe and of course will be lower, for various reasons. I understand that a lot of folks are looking for a deal and the lowest price, on any product, regardless of the source or how it might effect the supply chain for a brand. However, with hand made bicycles I feel that it is a special set of services and when someone purchases a bicycle from me it is coming with a lot more than just the hardware.
> 
> It's interesting to read these kinds of comments because most of the potential clients I deal with seem to understand the difference of making such a bicycle purchase with someone who takes a professional approach to the entire process of designing and building the frame. Quite honestly, the folks I deal with don't even ask much about price. They just want it right. They have very high expectations and are usually people who are high achievers in other areas of life, such that they can afford to be more selective. If price is a critical issue, then yes, Sarto may not be a good fit for you. There are lot of good options out there for decent prices (it's all relative of course). However, there is a lot of risk out there also. I've been doing this a long time and in my opinion Sarto, even at the prices I listed, offers excellent value, again, relative to their market segment.
> 
> I will be honest Pax, it seems to me that you have made every effort to derail and hi-jack this tread from the first day I posted. Perhaps it's just been a while since I have been on one of these boards and I'm off base. If so, I appologize. Understand, though, that this is very serious business to me. Also, I try to always conduct myself in the most honorable and professional manner. My clients can expect the same from me.
> 
> I was informed that there were questions being asked about Sarto bikes on this forum. I came on here to answer those questions, in good faith.
> 
> Good luck in your search.
> 
> Mark


Mark, to be honest the questions and comments that Pax Romana (and others) have brought up shouldn't come as a surprise to you. These days the label "made in Italy" is a very flexible definition and customers know this. And the 99% want to get the best deal possible, so I think it reasonable to ask why the pricing and more importantly the price difference between the US and Europe. 

As to hijacking and derailing a thread, wasn't this thread started with the purpose of sharing information about Sarto? All the questions and comments have been about Sarto, right? If anything else, I would say you have been given a very good opportunity to say that Sarto frames are not outsourced from Asia. 

Speaking of frame-building, are all the frames tube-to-tube? What is the construction method?


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## tallrider721

julius, 

I totally understand the incredulity of people right now regarding where bikes are made. And actually, everyone so far has been very diplomatic and, if anything, open minded and encouraging. Pax has been the only one whom I have taken exception to, and not to any great offense. Again, this could also be my issue of not being accustomed to being on this type of forum for a while. The internet is filled with opinions and interesting people of all varieties. 

I would like to say that any of you are welcome to visit my shop in Cameron Park, CA, and test ride the Sarto bikes I have available as demo bikes. I can take you on a real bike ride to get a sense of what the bikes are like. When people see and ride the bikes it either resonates with them or not. Likewise, my approach, which tends to be very detail oriented and customer service related, is not something that everyone wants or values. 

I spend an enormous amount of time working with my clients, answering their questions, scrutinizing issues with the frame design, the paint design, every detail. To be honest, most of my clients have worked with a regular "mom and pop" local bike shop in the past, even ones that carry some really high end brands. However, they are completely disallusioned with being able to get the type of service they require. Also, those type of clients are likely to be the type that would give most normal bike shops fits, because they are too demanding. My business model is setup to serve clients that want the best, are willing to pay for it, and they sure as hell expect the best in return.

By the way, have posted photos above that show the contruction methodology. It is indeed tube to tube. They have access to and utilize many different types of carbon including: M46J, T800, M30, HR40 and others. The tubes are mitered, positioned in a jig, bonded in place, and then wrapped with carbon fabric. For custom bikes, and certainly for the Super Custom range, they can apply more or less fabric or use a different modulus, based on the design criteria for the bike and it's rider. 

Let me know if you have any further questions. Honestly, I'm glad to answer them.

Mark


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## aclinjury

If custom is what you're after, then the prices listed by Tallrider is within the price range of the "custom" market. I know a friend who spent nearly (are you ready??) 18,000 USD for a totally custom Serotta MeiVici with just Sram Red and Fulcrum Zero clincher wheelsets. The bike comes in at around 14 lbs. 

Now for most cyclist, this sort of purchase would baffles them. Because the reasoning is that for $18,000, you can get the S-Works McClaren (the supposedly THE bike to get right?). Heck, there are plenty of $6000 whole bikes ready to ride from Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, Cervelo that weigh in at 14 lbs.

So if you just go by the "spec sheet" comparison, my friend's small sized Serotta, at 14 lbs, is way way over priced at almost $18k. The friend could have easily gotten ANY bike she wanted, Pinarello, Colnago,.. anything.

But you know what, the friend can afford it. Friend like the kind of clientel that Tallrider described: relatively well off, demanding, discerning, accomplished in life. For these type of people, they work hard to make their money, so they will not hesitate to splurge the $$$ if that is what it'll takes to make them happy and to pay back for the time they spent making the $$$. The custom frame fits her, and she is extremely happy. That's what she wanted, and that's what she got. She's happy.

Interestingly, one of the purchasing decisions for the friend was that Serotta as a company does not do "made in China". The friend does not want to deal with any bike company that mass manufacture bikes in China.

At this level, it's not about value buying; it's about satisfaction, and being treated like a king/queen. That's where the money is. Give good service, and you bet there will be some rich folks willing to pay for it. If you're looking for value, then head over to your local LBS with their weekly clearance event.


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## PaxRomana

tallrider721 said:


> I don't have direct access to the prices in Europe and the prices have increased substantially in the last few months due to changes in the infrastructure of how the frames are imported and distributed. I have no control over this.
> 
> The prices I see listed in the thread you linked are all from Europe and of course will be lower, for various reasons. I understand that a lot of folks are looking for a deal and the lowest price, on any product, regardless of the source or how it might effect the supply chain for a brand. However, with hand made bicycles I feel that it is a special set of services and when someone purchases a bicycle from me it is coming with a lot more than just the hardware.
> 
> It's interesting to read these kinds of comments because most of the potential clients I deal with seem to understand the difference of making such a bicycle purchase with someone who takes a professional approach to the entire process of designing and building the frame. Quite honestly, the folks I deal with don't even ask much about price. They just want it right. They have very high expectations and are usually people who are high achievers in other areas of life, such that they can afford to be more selective. If price is a critical issue, then yes, Sarto may not be a good fit for you. There are lot of good options out there for decent prices (it's all relative of course). However, there is a lot of risk out there also. I've been doing this a long time and in my opinion Sarto, even at the prices I listed, offers excellent value, again, relative to their market segment.
> 
> I will be honest Pax, it seems to me that you have made every effort to derail and hi-jack this tread from the first day I posted. Perhaps it's just been a while since I have been on one of these boards and I'm off base. If so, I appologize. Understand, though, that this is very serious business to me. Also, I try to always conduct myself in the most honorable and professional manner. My clients can expect the same from me.
> 
> I was informed that there were questions being asked about Sarto bikes on this forum. I came on here to answer those questions, in good faith.
> 
> Good luck in your search.
> 
> Mark


I can understand that you feel that your business is being questioned. If you thought that the world would accept your prices and your claims without question, you were mistaken.

If you deal with clients who are price insensitive, congratulations. I am sure we will soon be seeing lots of your "underpriced" Sartos all over the roads. Let me be frank. I have the highest respect for framebuilders like Sarto and Pelizzoli who make their frames in Italy rather than outsourcing production. For that same reason, I prefer Time. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for your average distributor making a quick buck by jacking up the prices of frames in the States. 

Would I buy a Sarto? Absolutely. They are beautiful frames. Would I pay your prices? Of course not. Naturally, there are plenty of well-off customers who are much less informed about their purchasing options and are price insensitive to boot. That is your market. You can fight with Serotta, Parlee, and others for it.

Again, no hard feelings.


----------



## PaxRomana

aclinjury said:


> If custom is what you're after, then the prices listed by Tallrider is within the price range of the "custom" market. I know a friend who spent nearly (are you ready??) 18,000 USD for a totally custom Serotta MeiVici with just Sram Red and Fulcrum Zero clincher wheelsets. The bike comes in at around 14 lbs.


$18,000 for a bike with Sram Red? 

Yes, there are stupid people in this world. Your friend is one of them. The wheels and group cost maybe $3k. Your friend paid something like 14 grand for the frame. That's not discerning. That just dumb. 

Just because someone can afford to buy something doesn't mean they're not a moron for doing it.

I'm not trying to be rude here. There is a difference between value and the perception of value. Buying a MeiVici and putting Red on it is like buying a Ferrari body with a Yugo engine inside. Nothing against Red, since I actually ride it. But at least I know what I'm riding.


----------



## aclinjury

Why paid for Sram Red when Campy Super Record or DA, electronic and all, was equally affordable. For starter, the answer is fit. It happens that the Sram fits her petite hands better than the other hoods.

But why do you think your perception of value of material things is the only one in this world?

Come to think of it, forget Serotta or Bob Marlee or Cyfac or Sarto. Let's pick a "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in China" Specialized, C'dale, Cervelo, or Trek, for say $4000-$6000... this can also be argued to be of questionable value. How can something made using cheap labor and mass produced assembly line be sold for such a high price (and don't throw the R&D cost crap at me)? Furthermore, most of the people around lesser parts of the world would be perfectly happy with a $300 bicycle, so why should we see value in spend thousands of dollar on a bicycle made in China.. when most Chinese themselves would never see it? I'll bet many people in lesser parts of the world would call YOU stupid too, and they would be absolutely right if they use your system of valuation, no?

And I would have a difficult time explaining to the people living in the poor parts of the world why you, or perhaps your value system, is not so stupid.. just as I would have a hard time explaining to you why a person like my friend would see value in an $18,000 bike. I'll bet you didn't think this through. I think your problem is that you put yourself at the center, use yourself as the point of reference, and then proceed to judge all things based on your center stance. Then it stands to reason that unless something shares the exact same reference point with you, then it is of "bad" (or at the mininum not as good) value.

And Tallguy is right. You entered this thread by throwing a stupid pic comparison, pretending to sound innocent, then proceeded to snide from there, all the while saying "no hard feelings". No need to be jealous at the rich. They work hard to earn their money, and they didn't get to where they are by being stupid. I used to be jealous of rich people spending money on things I considered to be overpriced, like buying a $300,000 Ferrari but can't really drive it. Don't hate. Learn to make money like them. Better to have money than be jealous of those with money. Using your pauper's valuation system to make fun of the rich will not make you like a smart guy who understands material value, but conversely can even make you look dumb.:idea:




PaxRomana said:


> $18,000 for a bike with Sram Red?
> 
> Yes, there are stupid people in this world. Your friend is one of them. The wheels and group cost maybe $3k. Your friend paid something like 14 grand for the frame. That's not discerning. That just dumb.
> 
> Just because someone can afford to buy something doesn't mean they're not a moron for doing it.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude here. There is a difference between value and the perception of value. Buying a MeiVici and putting Red on it is like buying a Ferrari body with a Yugo engine inside. Nothing against Red, since I actually ride it. But at least I know what I'm riding.


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## Bill2

Aren't Sram Red and Fulcrum made in Taiwan/China? Not following the reasoning here.


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## tallrider721

Bill2 said:


> Aren't Sram Red and Fulcrum made in Taiwan/China? Not following the reasoning here.


Hi Bill2,

Not sure if that post was for me but I don't usually spec SRAM, and Fulcrum wheels are still made in either Italy and/or Romania to the best of my knowledge. The wheels on the Davanti are Fulcrum Racing 3's and probably made in Romania. However, I have been impressed with them so far. Spoke tension data was very even and reasonably high. The run out was also within 0.25mm for both round and true. The hardware quality looks excellent for the relative price and the cassette body looks like it is robust. 

Mark


----------



## Bill2

No, addressing the guy above about spending $18000 to buy a bike to avoid Chinese/Taiwanese parts, then hanging SRAM Red on it.

But thanks for the Fulcrum info- found this nice video of their production process
How Fulcrum Wheels Are Made - YouTube


----------



## orange_julius

tallrider721 said:


> Hi Bill2,
> 
> Not sure if that post was for me but I don't usually spec SRAM, and Fulcrum wheels are still made in either Italy and/or Romania to the best of my knowledge. The wheels on the Davanti are Fulcrum Racing 3's and probably made in Romania. However, I have been impressed with them so far. Spoke tension data was very even and reasonably high. The run out was also within 0.25mm for both round and true. The hardware quality looks excellent for the relative price and the cassette body looks like it is robust.
> 
> Mark


I have the Campagnolo equivalent which is the Zonda, and it is a great value. Compared to the higher end Shamal the front is a touch soft and less smooth in spinning, but for the price it is hard to beat.


----------



## PaxRomana

aclinjury said:


> Using your pauper's valuation system to make fun of the rich will not make you like a smart guy who understands material value, but conversely can even make you look dumb.:idea:


Perhaps not as dumb as paying $18,000 for a bike with Sram Red on it. LMAO.
As has been pointed out, Red is made in China, and it is quite cheaply made. It is the group to use if you want to race and want a relatively disposable, lightweight group.

If you're going to build a first-class bike, go with Super Record 11 or EPS. Those are either made in Romania or Italy. EPS is still currently made in Italy, but production will expand to Romania this summer, I believe.

Same with Fulcrum, Mavic, and Campy wheels. Made in Romania. Lots of high-quality stuff is made there. 

As OJ pointed out, Campy wheels are some of the best in the business. But, by all means, hang that Sram Red on the $18,000 MeiVici. I bet that bike shop was laughing after your buddy left. 

If you are going to buy a Sarto, Pelizzoli, etc., put Campy on it. As the OP pointed out, he doesn't even spec Red. Why? Because he sells high-end Italian frames. It's common sense. 

Wealth doesn't excuse stupidity, buddy. Plenty of rich people are stupid. Look at politicians if you want to see a myriad examples.


----------



## aclinjury

PaxRomana said:


> Perhaps not as dumb as paying $18,000 for a bike with Sram Red on it. LMAO.
> As has been pointed out, Red is made in China, and it is quite cheaply made. It is the group to use if you want to race and want a relatively disposable, lightweight group.
> 
> If you're going to build a first-class bike, go with Super Record 11 or EPS. Those are either made in Romania or Italy. EPS is still currently made in Italy, but production will expand to Romania this summer, I believe.
> 
> Same with Fulcrum, Mavic, and Campy wheels. Made in Romania. Lots of high-quality stuff is made there.
> 
> As OJ pointed out, Campy wheels are some of the best in the business. But, by all means, hang that Sram Red on the $18,000 MeiVici. I bet that bike shop was laughing after your buddy left.
> 
> If you are going to buy a Sarto, Pelizzoli, etc., put Campy on it. As the OP pointed out, he doesn't even spec Red. Why? Because he sells high-end Italian frames. It's common sense.
> 
> Wealth doesn't excuse stupidity, buddy. Plenty of rich people are stupid. Look at politicians if you want to see a myriad examples.


Pot.kettle.black...

1) You keep telling other people who stupid they are, and you do this based on your self-centric notion of value. Furthermore, I have pointed out that using your self-centric valuation system, a poor person living in a poorer part of the world probably will think that YOU are also stupid for buying a multi-thousand dollar bike. In fact, you even admitted that you are dumb, just not as dumb as my friend (this is based on your perceived value, of course). How about open your mind and re-evaluate your system of valuation instead of back pedalling when someone points out the flaw in such thinking?

2) I have said that the friend went with Sram because that's what fit her hands. Could have easily gone for top-line Campy stuff, and in fact that was what she wanted, but she bought the bike for "fit & goemetry" first and foremost.

3) Regarding China. That is right, she does not want anything to do with China. But then again, the reality is that many stuff now are made in China, and at some point, one can't escape from China. The idea here is to minimize the stuff you have to buy from China. The frame is made in the US, the money stays in the US. The buyer can afford it with her income, which is made by servicing Americans. So American money (at least the bulk of it) stays in America, and that in the buyer's mind constitute a part of her value system (give back to the community).

You know, $18,000 is a lot of money, and it is by no mean chump change. But you are obsessed with your own self centerism, so much so that you let the 18,000 figure box your logic into a hole, and then you need to make exception in your logic so that it can convenience your writing.:idea:


----------



## Bill2

She must have to service a lot of Americans to earn $18,000.


----------



## svard75

PaxRomana said:


> $18,000 for a bike with Sram Red?
> 
> Yes, there are stupid people in this world. Your friend is one of them. The wheels and group cost maybe $3k. Your friend paid something like 14 grand for the frame. That's not discerning. That just dumb.
> 
> Just because someone can afford to buy something doesn't mean they're not a moron for doing it.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude here. There is a difference between value and the perception of value. Buying a MeiVici and putting Red on it is like buying a Ferrari body with a *Yugo engine inside*. Nothing against Red, since I actually ride it. But at least I know what I'm riding.


Hey I take exception to this comment (I'm Yugoslavian). But seriously why is Red so frowned on? When I was building my bike I was sourcing groupos and the Campy SR11 was only $150 more than the red black so I'm not sure your analogy "Ferrari body with a Yugo engine inside" is so accurate.


----------



## aclinjury

Tallguy,
looks like I'm starting to derail your thread a bit with my replies!
However, I'm excusing myself from any further pissing matching.

I have a Serotta, Cyfac, Casati (classic thin chromoly tubings), and the Sarto definitely perks my interest. I have read your website where it mentioned that the seatstays on one of the model has a "twist" in the carbon. I assume this twist has an effect on the characteristic of the bike? Would like to know more about this twist contruction. Lynskey has their twists in the Helix but that is Ti. I do fancy another bike in the future, and before seeing your post, I was seeting my mind on the Casati Vola, but now I might have to ponder furhter.


----------



## orange_julius

Bill2 said:


> She must have to service a lot of Americans to earn $18,000.


Will you clearly explain what you mean by this, please?


----------



## Bill2

Oops, forgot the quote


> The frame is made in the US, the money stays in the US. The buyer can afford it with her income, which is made by servicing Americans.


----------



## tallrider721

Very cool video. Thanks for posting. Not sure if that was Italy or Romania, but it definately looked like it was in Europe. Lot's of interesting details during the production process. The way the loops are cut, all at once and with great force, caught my eye. As a wheel builder I really scrutinize the area of transitions (seam or other features on carbon rims) and there is often some twisting in this area that spoke tension alone will not correct. 

Yes, you are right, that caught my eye as well, with the guy spec'ing Red on it. Honestly I only sell Campy right now, but the clients I deal with have usually been riding for over 20 years and don't want to mess around. So many of my racer friends complain that Campy is too expensive, but they don't realize the longevity for the systems and that you can get (at a cost) every spare for every component. 

The $18,000 price tag also points to the fact that the price of the Serrotta frame is pretty high. I'm guessing he paid about $8000 for that frame. That is the last price I heard from several dealers I used to call on. Wait time was between 9-12 months, from what I was told. Not sure of the pricing or wait time now. Hey, at least it's not as long as a Richard Sachs. Just saw an interview with him from NAHBS this year where he said his current wait list time is 8 YEARS. I think Richard is the best though. His finish work is probably the best in the world. 

Mark


----------



## cdhbrad

Tallrider: I stopped by the Sarto booth at the 2011 NAHBS show in Austin and spent a good bit of time with the rep. The frames looked great and the method of construction was very similar to that of the carbon Fondriest I ride, also made in Italy. I gathered from the conversation that Sarto and Fondriest use some of the same tubesets. Given the tube to tube construction and how the individual layups are done, the prices really aren't out of line with those of other "custom" carbon frame builders. 

Best of luck with your new business.


----------



## tallrider721

I agree. I will use them on my demo bikes, which are all $10,000 bikes. The weight on the Davanti with those wheels, Chorus and Deda finsh kit is 15.5lbs. Good combination of strength and light weight for the price.


----------



## aclinjury

Bill2 said:


> She must have to service a lot of Americans to earn $18,000.


Now English isn't my first language, but it's good enough for me to understand the word "service" has many good connotations, for example, service could mean anything from rendering service within the legal industry to medical to the financial or entertaiment. 66% of the American economy is service-based economy, meaning 2 out of every 3 dollar comes from someone providing a service for somebody.

I'm curious, exactly what connotation did you have in mind when you made that statement. The tone is of a petty one. I'm not the only person to note. Orange Julius notice it. Don't be petty sir, you can't go far and end up hating yourself later in life!

sorry Tallguy, i'm derailing again.


----------



## tallrider721

aclinjury said:


> Pot.kettle.black...
> 
> 1) You keep telling other people who stupid they are, and you do this based on your self-centric notion of value. Furthermore, I have pointed out that using your self-centric valuation system, a poor person living in a poorer part of the world probably will think that YOU are also stupid for buying a multi-thousand dollar bike. In fact, you even admitted that you are dumb, just not as dumb as my friend (this is based on your perceived value, of course). How about open your mind and re-evaluate your system of valuation instead of back pedalling when someone points out the flaw in such thinking?
> 
> 2) I have said that the friend went with Sram because that's what fit her hands. Could have easily gone for top-line Campy stuff, and in fact that was what she wanted, but she bought the bike for "fit & goemetry" first and foremost.
> 
> 3) Regarding China. That is right, she does not want anything to do with China. But then again, the reality is that many stuff now are made in China, and at some point, one can't escape from China. The idea here is to minimize the stuff you have to buy from China. The frame is made in the US, the money stays in the US. The buyer can afford it with her income, which is made by servicing Americans. So American money (at least the bulk of it) stays in America, and that in the buyer's mind constitute a part of her value system (give back to the community).
> 
> You know, $18,000 is a lot of money, and it is by no mean chump change. But you are obsessed with your own self centerism, so much so that you let the 18,000 figure box your logic into a hole, and then you need to make exception in your logic so that it can convenience your writing.:idea:


The issue of hand size and other ergonomic considerations are actually very important and can cause someone to change brands for that reason. This lever design, it is actually a safety issue. The three main systems (Shimano, SRAM and Campy) all have different shapes and different actuation of the brake and shift levers. After I broke my thumbs in a road race a few years ago I wondered if it would be a problem for me to use my Campy levers, due to the thumb shift lever. It ended up not being a problem, but it's a consideration.

Regarding price, there is a pretty big problem in our industry with discounting. Hey, for a while I was out of the industry, officially, working for a multi-billion $$$ tech firm. I was a consumer at that point, albiet a very educated consumer in the bike realm. Plus, I hadn't paid retail for anything in over a decade, so I had to look for deals. 

However, the part of the equation that is missing is this: Who is going to adivise you on your purchase, provide the mechanical work and then service the product afterwards? Most shops now don't provide a very high level of expertise for super high end bikes, across their entire service staff. 

Yes, there are some excellent shops out there, but unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule. Why is this? Because most bike shops aren't profitable enough to maintain a top level staff. Most bike shop employees (again, not all) are either high school or college age. Even the experienced guys that want to make it a career usually have to leave the shops and get a "real" job. So you train someone for 1-3 years and perhaps even develop them a bit (if you do any training, which many shops don't), but the then take those skill sets with them elsewhere. Because bicycle retail is not a viable profession in this country. 

With high end product, there is basically no room for screwing up. Especially dealing with Campy or with carbon frames or building carbon wheels. You need to have robust, repeatable processes in place. You need to have the correct tools and you need to also be willing to properly document things when something goes wrong. For example, when a product comes in and there is a problem with it, I use a Nikkor 60mm Macro lens to take high resolution photos and then report my findings to the manufacturer. I don't *****. I provide usuable data and feedback. This approach has proven useful with a variety of vendors. This is also an example of one of the many powerful advantages a high level shop can provide and why they are so important. 

OK, climbing off my soap box.

Mark


----------



## tallrider721

aclinjury said:


> Tallguy,
> looks like I'm starting to derail your thread a bit with my replies!
> However, I'm excusing myself from any further pissing matching.
> 
> I have a Serotta, Cyfac, Casati (classic thin chromoly tubings), and the Sarto definitely perks my interest. I have read your website where it mentioned that the seatstays on one of the model has a "twist" in the carbon. I assume this twist has an effect on the characteristic of the bike? Would like to know more about this twist contruction. Lynskey has their twists in the Helix but that is Ti. I do fancy another bike in the future, and before seeing your post, I was seeting my mind on the Casati Vola, but now I might have to ponder furhter.


aclinjury,

To be honest, Enrico wouldn't tell me either the modulus of the carbon nor the specific reason that they twisted the seat stays. However, what I gather, is that the shape of the stays (rectangular, but very soft corners) coupled with the 45 degree angle allowed for the deflection of both vertical and lateral forces to be controled in some fashion. They use both experience in the world of racing PLUS computer modeling and other modern tools, to design their tubes and frames. The seat stays act as a kind of suspension on a road racing frame and there are many different solutions that Sarto provides. This set seems to be focused on being both very light and very strong, with still excellent comfort. 

I have also looked at the Casati line of custom carbon bikes, but they are very limiting on choices (for me) and don't look as well finished. I will look at them closely at Interbike. I would like to carry a couple of other lines, but Sarto is capable of doing basically anything. The only other line I've identified that is truly in line with my business model is Cyfac. I would be interested in hearing about your experience with the one you have. 

Mark


----------



## orange_julius

aclinjury said:


> Tallguy,
> looks like I'm starting to derail your thread a bit with my replies!
> However, I'm excusing myself from any further pissing matching.
> 
> I have a Serotta, Cyfac, Casati (classic thin chromoly tubings), and the Sarto definitely perks my interest. I have read your website where it mentioned that the seatstays on one of the model has a "twist" in the carbon. I assume this twist has an effect on the characteristic of the bike? Would like to know more about this twist contruction. Lynskey has their twists in the Helix but that is Ti. I do fancy another bike in the future, and before seeing your post, I was seeting my mind on the Casati Vola, but now I might have to ponder furhter.


ACLinjury, what Cyfac did you end up getting? Mind posting a pic in the thread you had started to ask about Cyfac? Very curious to see the finished bike.


----------



## tallrider721

cdhbrad said:


> Tallrider: I stopped by the Sarto booth at the 2011 NAHBS show in Austin and spent a good bit of time with the rep. The frames looked great and the method of construction was very similar to that of the carbon Fondriest I ride, also made in Italy. I gathered from the conversation that Sarto and Fondriest use some of the same tubesets. Given the tube to tube construction and how the individual layups are done, the prices really aren't out of line with those of other "custom" carbon frame builders.
> 
> Best of luck with your new business.


If you spoke to the rep, there is a good chance it was me. I'm 6'4" and have a goatee, if that sounds familiar. I have been representing Sarto in some fashion for about a year and a half. And there is a possibility that the Fondriest you are riding was made by Sarto, as they have been a client in the past, though I don't know about now. 

Sarto has made bikes for a lot of Italian frame builders, dating back to Atala and Torpedo. Enrico Sarto's father, Antonio has been building frames since 1959. During that time they have almost always built for others, never under the Sarto name, until recently. 

The fact that these frames are available to the public in the US now is very cool. When you buy a Sarto you are tapping into one of the last true Italian race shops. The fact that they embraced tube to tube construction is the key. It allows for custom sizing and it makes for what seems to be a more reliable frame structure, such that they can offer a lifetime warranty. 

Mark


----------



## cdhbrad

Mark: it may well have been you if you were at the 2011 NAHBS show. Whoever was in the booth when I stopped by was very helpful and even mentioned the Sarto/Fondriest relatiohnship. Mine is a Domino Plus, 2005-06 vintage. It is a great bike also using the tube to tube construction.


----------



## tallrider721

cdhbrad said:


> Mark: it may well have been you if you were at the 2011 NAHBS show. Whoever was in the booth when I stopped by was very helpful and even mentioned the Sarto/Fondriest relatiohnship. Mine is a Domino Plus, 2005-06 vintage. It is a great bike also using the tube to tube construction.


Well, I'm the only other one in our group that fits that description so yes, it was probably me. Glad to get the positive feedback. It's such an easy line to get behind because of what they offer, but now that I have had a chance to spend time with Enrico Sarto it makes it even easier. Fantastic guy and super knowledgeable. One of my favorite people in the industry, and we are fortunate to have a lot of great folks in the cycling industry.


----------



## aclinjury

tallrider721 said:


> aclinjury,
> 
> To be honest, Enrico wouldn't tell me either the modulus of the carbon nor the specific reason that they twisted the seat stays. However, what I gather, is that the shape of the stays (rectangular, but very soft corners) coupled with the 45 degree angle allowed for the deflection of both vertical and lateral forces to be controled in some fashion. They use both experience in the world of racing PLUS computer modeling and other modern tools, to design their tubes and frames. The seat stays act as a kind of suspension on a road racing frame and there are many different solutions that Sarto provides. This set seems to be focused on being both very light and very strong, with still excellent comfort.
> 
> I have also looked at the Casati line of custom carbon bikes, but they are very limiting on choices (for me) and don't look as well finished. I will look at them closely at Interbike. I would like to carry a couple of other lines, but Sarto is capable of doing basically anything. The only other line I've identified that is truly in line with my business model is Cyfac. I would be interested in hearing about your experience with the one you have.
> 
> Mark



The Casati I have is the Laser from 18 years ago, and the paint work is still top notched compared to today's bike. I have not actually closely examine the Casati Vola, but I'm a little surprised at your comment on it's finish. Maybe they just don't make things like they used to anymore at Casati?

For Cyfac, I have Nerv DS2 and recently added Absolu. The Nerv is aluminum front triangle with carbon rear triangle. I use the Nerv for crit, or riding flat at high speed on smooth road. The Nerv is the kind of bike that you use to pedal violently with, power is first, comfort is second. Having said this, the Nerv, with its front aluminum triangle (where aluminum is associated with harshness), ride smoother than my thin tube chromoly Casati. The Absolu on the other hand, feels much softer and smoother on long rides, definitely! I got the Absolu frame from a seller that discounting it 50% because he's stopped carrying hte Cyfac line, I jumped on it, didn't think twice.

Also, I think the Absolu has a better finish than the Nerv. The reason why I say this is because I'm seeing some clear coat peeling off the Nerv's downtube. But I wonder if this is because I simply use the Nerv more, ride it more, in wet weather, where debris and peebles tend to knick it.

Now between the Absolut and Serotta titanium carbon is where the comparison gets more interesting for me. Both ride equally supple, but the Serotta is a bit heavier, not by much. The carbon tubes of the Serotta is a little thicker, and the tubes of the serotta is also smoother to the feel by fingers, and I think the finish on the Serotta i also a little better (but I paid for the pearl'ish gold dust paint job! of the serotta).

One final thing I want to mention about the Nerv is that the aluminum tubing is not round & cylindrical. The tubing is more complex because of the pinches. This of course means that it does cost more than straight tube aluminum, and it's one reason why I like the Nerv.


----------



## aclinjury

orange_julius said:


> ACLinjury, what Cyfac did you end up getting? Mind posting a pic in the thread you had started to ask about Cyfac? Very curious to see the finished bike.


I got the Nerv and then recently Asolut frameset. Eric from Cyfac was very helpful, didn't try to push a product on me, took the time to explain in detail of Cyfac construction. Yeah huh I should post a pic in that Cyfac thread I started. Been too happy riding and neglect to follow up! (But how I got the Absolut is an interesting story too, but I'm going to hold back from posting all the details because I want to avoide create friction/rumors between that LBS and Cyfac Co.)


----------



## tallrider721

Great information and descriptions. The only Casatis I've seen were in photos on their current website, so perhaps I need to reserve judgement. I remember when I rep'ed for a distributor years ago that carried Casati that they were very very nice. I would like to find out more about their custom carbon program as it could be something I could carry, but it would need to offer something to distinguish them from Sarto. 

I spoke at length to Eric the other day and I really like their approach at Cyfac. I'm not sure I will commit to taking on another line on an immediate basis, but from everything I know right now, Cyfac is the only other line I would consider taking on. They have been in business for 30 years, have what seems to be a solid management structure and their products look excellent. Some of the potential dealers I called on last year carried Cyfac and I was impressed with their appearance. They have a similar appearance to the Sarto, both of which look very different from any production bikes. I have serviced a lot of Trek's and Specialized bikes this year. The paint on those bikes looks incredibly bad after just a year or two. Not sure whether wax would have helped or not. 

The shapes in the tubes are not only for adding strength in certain areas, but also to introduce a controlled amount of flex for other areas. This is true with any material. But with carbon there is a weight penalty, depending on how you achieve those shapes. Typically though, round tubes are the strongest, per gram. But they can be either too stiff or too flexible depending on their diameter and their location. Typically speaking, but adding in specially shaped tubes, the weight of the frame will increase by 200-400 grams depending on the complexity and diameter of the tubes. When you see a frame with large, specially shaped tubes (think curves) but it is still under 800 grams, it may not be the most durable frame in the world. Engineering is ALWAYS a series of compromises. 

Mark


----------



## aclinjury

tallrider721 said:


> *The issue of hand size and other ergonomic considerations are actually very important and can cause someone to change brands for that reason. *This lever design, it is actually a safety issue. The three main systems (Shimano, SRAM and Campy) all have different shapes and different actuation of the brake and shift levers. After I broke my thumbs in a road race a few years ago I wondered if it would be a problem for me to use my Campy levers, due to the thumb shift lever. It ended up not being a problem, but it's a consideration.
> 
> Regarding price, there is a pretty big problem in our industry with discounting. Hey, for a while I was out of the industry, officially, working for a multi-billion $$$ tech firm. I was a consumer at that point, albiet a very educated consumer in the bike realm. Plus, I hadn't paid retail for anything in over a decade, so I had to look for deals.
> 
> *However, the part of the equation that is missing is this: Who is going to adivise you on your purchase, provide the mechanical work and then service the product afterwards? *Most shops now don't provide a very high level of expertise for super high end bikes, across their entire service staff.
> 
> Yes, there are some excellent shops out there, but unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule. Why is this? Because most bike shops aren't profitable enough to maintain a top level staff. Most bike shop employees (again, not all) are either high school or college age. Even the experienced guys that want to make it a career usually have to leave the shops and get a "real" job. So you train someone for 1-3 years and perhaps even develop them a bit (if you do any training, which many shops don't), but the then take those skill sets with them elsewhere. Because bicycle retail is not a viable profession in this country.
> 
> With high end product, there is basically no room for screwing up. Especially dealing with Campy or with carbon frames or building carbon wheels. You need to have robust, repeatable processes in place. You need to have the correct tools and you need to also be willing to properly document things when something goes wrong. For example, when a product comes in and there is a problem with it, I use a Nikkor 60mm Macro lens to take high resolution photos and then report my findings to the manufacturer. I don't *****. I provide usuable data and feedback. This approach has proven useful with a variety of vendors. This is also an example of one of the many powerful advantages a high level shop can provide and why they are so important.
> 
> OK, climbing off my soap box.
> 
> Mark


You got that right. People who pay $10,000+ for a bike expects fit and service. Let me just give an example. In one of our group ride, one of our riders hit a pothole around a blind turn, caused his front tire to pop off from rim, and he ate it pretty hard. The friend called the bike shop that sold her the bike, ask if they can repair the tire for the fallen rider, plus he needed medical attention a bit. The owner of the shop dropped what he was doing and drove 30 minutes to pick up the fallen rider, fixed his bike up, bandaid him, and off we go again. Another time, the shop owner picked us up because we hit a road construction detour and wasn't going to make it home before darkness.

The owner went out of his way to help us simply because we're friends of the friend who bought the bike. Now I would say this sort of service is probably extraordinary.

True, most people cannot afford this sort of service. But if for those who work hard to earn their money, you can't blame them for slurging. What is not known is that the friend gives back to the community a lot both in terms of monetary donations to various children's charity and some of her time at the local children's hospital. These type of over-acheiving individuals put more back into the community than they take out, and who am I to question their value system of buying an 18k bike?


----------



## milkbaby

Are the custom Sarto frames only made by Antonio and his son, or is it a workshop like Cyfac?

From the prices for stock frames, doesn't seem more expensive than Time? Time is pretty expensive around $5k for the frameset, though I admit I absolutely love the ride of the one I have...


----------



## tallrider721

milkbaby,

Antonio is "officially" retired at age 83, but he is still the first one at the shop to open up every day. 
Enrico is the company principal now, in all ways (except the head badge art was 100% Antonio's call). The factory employs 15 craftsmen, most of whom have been with Sarto for a long time. They use the apprenticeship model and I believe it is this moderate size shop that allows them to achieve something special: they retain quality, but are able to produce more than a handlful of frames per year. The number I have heard is that they produce 2500 frames a year. Many of those are in stock geometry as they are being sold to other manufacturers who have their decals on the bike. The work flow for a custom project is different and one builder then focuses on that project. All tubes are mitered individually, instead of in batches. Setup for the jig has to be changed, etc. To be honest I think the difference in price to go custom on some of the bikes is very reasonable considering the amount of extra time goes into it. I can tell you that from my end the extra time involved is massive. When someone is making a lifetime purchase for a frame that is build only for them and will have their name on it, everything needs to be perfect.

Mark


----------



## orange_julius

aclinjury said:


> I got the Nerv and then recently Asolut frameset. Eric from Cyfac was very helpful, didn't try to push a product on me, took the time to explain in detail of Cyfac construction. Yeah huh I should post a pic in that Cyfac thread I started. Been too happy riding and neglect to follow up! (But how I got the Absolut is an interesting story too, but I'm going to hold back from posting all the details because I want to avoide create friction/rumors between that LBS and Cyfac Co.)


That great, ACLinjury. My first Cyfac was a Nerv DS (the model before DS2), it is really an awesome frame. I came off of a LOOK KG361 and a Trek mid-range alu, the Nerv DS was much more responsive but comfortable for long riders. You are right that it is a bike that can take a brutal ride, both coming from the rider and the tarmac. 

Since then I've bought a Cyfac CX, Gothica, and recently a Zona Classiques special. All of them are very different and unique, but in common they share amazing finish and ride quality.

I'm saving up some coins for an Absolu with tapered fork and EPS integration. I'd love to hear impressions of how the Gothica differs from the Absolu, at least in their standard configurations.


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## PaxRomana

Cyfac is another brand that interests me very much. I have only Times, and I am very much a fan of the brand. We don't have a local Cyfac dealer so I have not seen them in person, though I have read about them.

Time, however, doesn't do custom and their sizes are limited. The small just happens to fit me quite well.


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## orange_julius

PaxRomana said:


> Cyfac is another brand that interests me very much. I have only Times, and I am very much a fan of the brand. We don't have a local Cyfac dealer so I have not seen them in person, though I have read about them.
> 
> Time, however, doesn't do custom and their sizes are limited. The small just happens to fit me quite well.


PaxRomana, where are you located? You can PM me if you don't want to disclose publicly. 

It's too bad that Cyfac is hard to find in the US.


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## Cinelli 82220

tallrider721 said:


> Who is going to adivise you on your purchase, provide the mechanical work and then service the product afterwards?


It's a bicycle, for crying out loud. They aren't hard to figure out.

And I can get all the advice I need right here, or at least most of it. There may be plenty of hapless noobs who know nothing about carbon/ti/positronium but those noobs are not going to be buying made to measure carbon frames. 
I am sceptical of the exact "value" being added by the addition of another profit layer between the fabricator, Sarto, and the end user, me.
I met a famous Italian builder once and was all fired up about getting a made to measure frame from him. Not so fast, my friend, he says, you have to go through the distributor, and the authorised retailer. That's two layers of profit that serve no purpose to me. God I was so pissed...here I am talking to him, getting measured by him, discussing my riding style with him, but I have to go to a dealer who knows nada about me because that dealer can "advise me"...give me a break!
The problem with high end bikes is not their price. There are too many people making money off the product, too many steps between manufacture and delivery. Each step adds a layer of profit, taxes, etc, and the end user pays for the whole shot. See those pictures of parties at Interbike? Us suckers are paying for them. 

I have lots of ridiculously expensive Italian/pseudo Italian bikes. But when the guys on the Chinarellos mock me they may be right.


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## aclinjury

orange_julius said:


> That great, ACLinjury. My first Cyfac was a Nerv DS (the model before DS2), it is really an awesome frame. I came off of a LOOK KG361 and a Trek mid-range alu, the Nerv DS was much more responsive but comfortable for long riders. You are right that it is a bike that can take a brutal ride, both coming from the rider and the tarmac.
> 
> Since then I've bought a Cyfac CX, Gothica, and recently a Zona Classiques special. All of them are very different and unique, but in common they share amazing finish and ride quality.
> 
> I'm saving up some coins for an Absolu with tapered fork and EPS integration. I'd love to hear impressions of how the Gothica differs from the Absolu, at least in their standard configurations.


I wish I had saved a lengthy email from Eric to me differentiating the differences in the Nerv, Nerv 2, Tiger (defunct now), Gothica, and Absolu.

But from memory of the email exchange,.. the Nerv and Nerv 2 main difference is that the Nerv 2 has the rear triangle (seat- and chain- stays) built from the exact same carbon stays as the Absolu.. where as the Nerv carbon stays were similar to that of the Tiger. The Tiger was Cyfac's first foray into carbon and in many ways Cyfac overbuilt the Tiger (and hence overbuilt the stays of the original Nerv, making the ride rougher). With the Gothica and Absolu, Cyfac then refined the carbon layups. Nerv 2 benefited from the refinement of the rear triangle too, yet still retain that aluminum stiffness front triangle and bottom bracket. 

In terms of comfort (from least comfort to most): it's Nerv 2, Absolu, Gothica. Eric also mentioned that Cyfac avoids using the super high mod carbon because they are fragile. I personally think super hi-mod carbon don't absorb vibration well (because the tubes are just too thin to provide much vibration damping). I've ridden a few top line bikes like Specialized Sworks SL3, Cervelo R5, Trek Madone 6, Scott Addict, Cannaondale Supersix & Evo, and of all these bikes, the SL3 and the Nerv 2 are very very close when it comes to comfort feel with the SL3 edging out the Nerv 2 a tad. SL3 is quite a harsh ride for a full carbon bike, where as it's expected from the Nerv 2. Except for the SL3, all of the other makes of high end carbon bikes has a similar level of comfort to the Absolu.

I did not get a chance to test the Gothica so I can't say much on it other than what Eric told me.

But ok what about real world rides? I'll share a bit, keep in mind this is just my personal feeling..

For sprinting, crit racing, I pick Nerv 2 over the Absolu and Serotta Ottrott (Ottrott is titanium with mid-modulus carbon). For rides under 50 miles, I pick the Nerv 2 almost always. Also, most of my rides under 50 miles almost always involve some friendly competitive bursts of sprint, so I like to go with the Nerv 2.

For climbing, I have no preference. I do equally well in the Nerv 2 or Ottrott or Absolu. But of the 3 bikes, I always seem to descend more aggresively and faster on the Nerv 2. I think one reason is that I baby the Ottrott and Absolu a little too much so back off when i'm on those.

Real world comfort, it's a REAL close call between the Ottrott and Absolu but Ottrott edges out a bit, if barely. I think the Ottrott uses a little thicker carbon tubes and therefore is able to absorb road vibration before the vibration gets to your body. The Ottrott is also a bit heavier. Ottrotte has titanium for the seat tube, seat tube & top tube junction, head tube, chain stays. Top tube, down tube, seat stays are all carbon. Also IMO, Serotta seat stays are curved a bit and the curve is visually appealing to my eyes. I'm sure the curve seat stays play a part in providing comfort.

Compared to my 18 yr old Casati with Columbus Genius steel tubes, all three bikes (Nerv 2, Ottrott, Absolu) ride smoother in that they absorb vibration better too. The real treat here is the Nerv 2 out-smoothing the steel Casati. I have no doubt that unless you're riding over cobblestones, you can use the Nerv 2 in a century easily if you're under 50 yr old. I have not ridden the Nerv (original version), but from Eric's email, he said the original Nerv was too harsh (in a smilar way so too was the Tiger).

Ok now what about up-close eyeball level inspection on quality? I did some unscientific comparison of the 2 Cyfac models to the Ottrott, and Sworks SL3, C'dale Evo, Cervelo R5, Scott Addict. Of all these, the Ottrott wins hands down, followed by the Absolu. Period. When I run my fingers over the tubes of the Ottrott, they exude quality. Carbon is smooth like baby's butt, no ripples, no undulating surfaces. The paint job of the Ottrott is truely top notched (changes shades like a hologram). The Sworks was a major disappointment. Seriously I don't mean to bag on the Sworks as there are lots of Sworks owners around here and don't want to turn this thread into a pissing match with the Sworks guy, but when my fingers feel unevenness on their tubes, that's when I say forget it (Sworks owners can keep their stiffness, I'll take quality). The Cervelo and Addict was so-so, nothing stood out, although I have to say the Addict uses very very light and thin tubings... and it makes it sound cheap to the ear when I flick the tubes.. I don't care much for function when it sounds cheap (if functions was all I wanted, i'd gotten a Walmart bike).

The only bike of the bunch to match my 18 yr old Casati in craftsmanship is the Ottrott. After 18 years, the Casati still shines next to all the plastic bikes eh.

In terms of weight, all of my bikes except for the Casati is within 1 lb of each other, between just under 16 to 17 lbs, and this deviate a little bit depending on what wheelsets I put on each bike, but it usually goes something like (lightest to heaviest): Absolut, Nerv 2, Ottrott. Casati is 20 lbs (which is not bad for a chromoly bike built 18 years ago, still using the original Dura Ace and Mavic wheels from 18 yrs ago!). Except for the Casati, I climb equally well in all of my bikes, but on the flat, the Nerv 2 is just a thrill when I get out of the saddle, or when descending. Please don't think the Casati is a dog either, I keep up with all of the guys on their Specialized's & Trek's & Cdale's & Cervelo's. If someone beat me, it's because they have a better legs and/or skills, almost it's never about their bike.

Now I could have gotten a Pinarello or Colnago, but didn't want the Pina because of all the Chinarellos. Didn't want to go Colnago either because I see lots of them around, and frankly I'm not impressed with their quality either.

To me, when I buy a multi thousand dollar bike, I plan to keep it for a long time, and I want quality paint and quality feel when I touch it. I'm not buying a high end bike to race. If I race, I'd get chinese Ebay carbon bikes as they're cheaper to buy and cheaper to replace (they say you only race what you can replace).

the top of the line Sworks or Cervelo or Scott or Trek all have an MSRP price of something like $8000 (I know, nobody ever pays retail for mass produced bike). But for $8500, I can get a bike custom made with way better quality and man-hours being put in. There is more intrinsic value in a custom. An $8000 Sworks bike has a much lower intrinsic value because the labor from Taiwan is cheaper (and cheaper still if in China). But to be fair, I have not seen one single non-sponsored rider who bought an Sworks at full retail price yet.

If I had to compare my bicycles to cars, it'd be something like this. Serotta Ottrott is like an old school British roadster that you ride on the weekend in the backcountry road or twisties in a club of other roadsters. Riding the Absolu makes me feels like I'm driving a Bugatti (even though I've never driven one!) because it's French and it's exclusive and its tube construction exude quality and uniqeness (Cyfac pinches their tubes, they're not round and cylindrical throughout). Now riding the Nerv 2, is like driving cross between Viper/Audi R8. I say this because it's power response is instant (Viper), and yet it's still exclusive (R8), and it's handling is superb (R8). I would like to say it's similar to a Ferrari (yes, I've ridden Ferraris and Lambos) but Ferrari is Italian and I will leave the comparison for the Colnago guys. The bike that get the most use is the Nerv 2, bikes that get babied are Ottrott and Absolu. The Casati got babied a lot but after 18 years a few crashes (one crash broke the downtube but was able to repair it by welding in a plate), it's becoming a museum piece in my house now. The older crowds and the steel crowds always have comment for the Casati. The younger carbon-centric crowds like the Absolu. Everybody loves the Ottrott because it's really a piece of art! But not a lot of people have heard of the Nerv 2, some people think aluminum-carbon is outdated, so they don't care much to comment (they probabably don't know that Cyfac is one of the best in the business when it comes to aluminum).

I'm not too old, in my mid 30s, but I've been around long enough that I don't buy into all these "light & stiff yet compliance" marketing bs being pushed out by the big guns like Big S and Trek in industry. At this age, I'm starting to gravitate toward the classical things of life, and I firmly believe that in the saying that "Not all expensive things are quality, but almost all quality things are expensive".

And if one day I decide to go crit racing weekly, then I'd get chinese ebay carbon all the way because I'm self sponsored!


----------



## orange_julius

aclinjury said:


> I wish I had saved a lengthy email from Eric to me differentiating the differences in the Nerv, Nerv 2, Tiger (defunct now), Gothica, and Absolu.
> 
> But from memory of the email exchange,.. the Nerv and Nerv 2 main difference is that the Nerv 2 has the rear triangle (seat- and chain- stays) built from the exact same carbon stays as the Absolu.. where as the Nerv carbon stays were similar to that of the Tiger. The Tiger was Cyfac's first foray into carbon and in many ways Cyfac overbuilt the Tiger (and hence overbuilt the stays of the original Nerv, making the ride rougher). With the Gothica and Absolu, Cyfac then refined the carbon layups. Nerv 2 benefited from the refinement of the rear triangle too, yet still retain that aluminum stiffness front triangle and bottom bracket.
> 
> In terms of comfort (from least comfort to most): it's Nerv 2, Absolu, Gothica. Eric also mentioned that Cyfac avoids using the super high mod carbon because they are fragile. I personally think super hi-mod carbon don't absorb vibration well (because the tubes are just too thin to provide much vibration damping). I've ridden a few top line bikes like Specialized Sworks SL3, Cervelo R5, Trek Madone 6, Scott Addict, Cannaondale Supersix & Evo, and of all these bikes, the SL3 and the Nerv 2 are very very close when it comes to comfort feel with the SL3 edging out the Nerv 2 a tad. SL3 is quite a harsh ride for a full carbon bike, where as it's expected from the Nerv 2. Except for the SL3, all of the other makes of high end carbon bikes has a similar level of comfort to the Absolu.
> 
> I did not get a chance to test the Gothica so I can't say much on it other than what Eric told me.
> 
> But ok what about real world rides? I'll share a bit, keep in mind this is just my personal feeling..
> 
> <snip>


Thanks for the impressions, ACLinjury. I used to have a Nerv Carbon (which had Tigre carbon tubes but alu lugs). And I recall that it had the same stays as my Nerv 1. The Nerv Carbon was ridiculously effective but also a bit uncomfortable. But if one wants a very reactive sprint/crit bike, I can't imagine anything better. 

Since then the only carbon Cyfac I've bought is the Gothica. I'm saving my coins for the Absolu, I'm stoked with the very positive reviews from you and from a few others on Weight Weenies I was able to find. 

I've never ridden a Nerv 2, unfortunately, so I don't have firsthand experience. Although if it's anything like the Gothica, I can guess the ride difference. 

It is cool that Cyfac continuously improves their design and production, but somehow I feel this works against them in marketing to certain groups as they expect "new models". I guess Cyfac is more like Campagnolo that way, keeping the product line names but continuously improving them. But heck, this makes sense for a company with such heavy focus on customization. 

Now, to think of what custom paint job I want with that Absolu ....

Cheers!


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## PaxRomana

Well, I've scored myself a Gothica frame to go along with my Times. Now all I need is a Look, and I will complete the French bike triumvirate.

Interestingly, as others have mentioned, Cyfac uses T800 tubes, rather than the lighter, but more brittle T1000. A lot of other brands, e.g., Cannondale, mix T700 with T1000 in order to achieve a mixture of light weight and stiffness. I'm not a weight weenie, so I don't really care. I did ride the Evo and was very impressed. However, for overall comfort, climbing, racing, etc., the Time WorldStar is hard to beat.


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## orange_julius

PaxRomana said:


> Well, I've scored myself a Gothica frame to go along with my Times. Now all I need is a Look, and I will complete the French bike triumvirate.
> 
> Interestingly, as others have mentioned, Cyfac uses T800 tubes, rather than the lighter, but more brittle T1000. A lot of other brands, e.g., Cannondale, mix T700 with T1000 in order to achieve a mixture of light weight and stiffness. I'm not a weight weenie, so I don't really care. I did ride the Evo and was very impressed. However, for overall comfort, climbing, racing, etc., the Time WorldStar is hard to beat.


Awesome! I look forward to a review once you have fully tested your acquisition!


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## Howster

*Sarto and other Stuff*



tallrider721 said:


> julius,
> 
> I totally understand the incredulity of people right now regarding where bikes are made. And actually, everyone so far has been very diplomatic and, if anything, open minded and encouraging. Pax has been the only one whom I have taken exception to, and not to any great offense. Again, this could also be my issue of not being accustomed to being on this type of forum for a while. The internet is filled with opinions and interesting people of all varieties.
> 
> I would like to say that any of you are welcome to visit my shop in Cameron Park, CA, and test ride the Sarto bikes I have available as demo bikes. I can take you on a real bike ride to get a sense of what the bikes are like. When people see and ride the bikes it either resonates with them or not. Likewise, my approach, which tends to be very detail oriented and customer service related, is not something that everyone wants or values.
> 
> I spend an enormous amount of time working with my clients, answering their questions, scrutinizing issues with the frame design, the paint design, every detail. To be honest, most of my clients have worked with a regular "mom and pop" local bike shop in the past, even ones that carry some really high end brands. However, they are completely disallusioned with being able to get the type of service they require. Also, those type of clients are likely to be the type that would give most normal bike shops fits, because they are too demanding. My business model is setup to serve clients that want the best, are willing to pay for it, and they sure as hell expect the best in return.
> 
> By the way, have posted photos above that show the contruction methodology. It is indeed tube to tube. They have access to and utilize many different types of carbon including: M46J, T800, M30, HR40 and others. The tubes are mitered, positioned in a jig, bonded in place, and then wrapped with carbon fabric. For custom bikes, and certainly for the Super Custom range, they can apply more or less fabric or use a different modulus, based on the design criteria for the bike and it's rider.
> 
> Let me know if you have any further questions. Honestly, I'm glad to answer them.
> 
> Mark



Hey Mark,

I have been reading your posts on Sarto and watched as others, such as Pax and Cinelli 82220 try and figure out why a frame costs this much over that frame, and why is this so much and all that. It just isn't rocket science. For someone who may have never heard of Sarto and other truly handmade frames, you just can't compare them to any Monocoque bike anywhere. 

I haven't been riding as long as many of you, as my first bike was a Peugeot PFN-10 way back in 1981. I haven't ridden it in many many years because I realized the bike shop sold me a bike that was too big. I still have it because of its old-school charm, but I don't really ride it anymore. However it looks brand new. 

I have only owned three bikes that I consider off-the-shelf-the Peugeot, a Specialized Allez Elite, and a brand new 2012 Bottecchia Super 8Avio. I have a Lemond Maillot Jaune I built from scratch back in 2001 which I have ridden until the Bottecchia arrived. The Lemond is all Dura-Ace with Easton bars, but really not all that different from a lot of other bikes. However I bought the Bottecchia because I wanted something new and ordered it from a nice little shop in Hungary. Never ridden Campy before, but I sure do like it so far. 

After I purchased the Bottecchia, which was about a month or so ago, I started asking the folks at Bottecchia in Italy some questions. They put me in touch with a rep who also is a Sarto rep. We spoke for a while about the Sarto brand and what they do, and what they don't do. I ended up buying a Davanti frame and fork sight unseen except for the photos on their website. When I got the frame, I just stood open-mouthed at how absolutely beautiful this thing is. It is a work of art, and that is it. Period! 

I have a good friend who supplies me with my Shimano kit, and he has told me in no uncertain terms to get the Di2 groupo and don't worry about anything else. So the Sarto will be equipped with Di2, and Deda for sure. Am also looking at the Praxis Works bottom bracket as well. At first I quipped at the prices of the Sarto frames, but then realized how much I have wanted a true hand-built Italian frame for a very long time. 

I see so many riders on Cervelo, Pinarello, Specialized S-Works and others who brag about how their bikes are all handmade, and you watch how they stick their noses up to everyone who doesn't have one. I'm not saying everyone who owns these bikes do that, but many I have seen do. So to know that these bikes are Taiwan and China made just makes me laugh at how much money they spent on a bike they thought was so special, but isn't. And for me, well, I didn't pay retail for my Sarto, but it still wasn't cheap. To know that my frame is most definitely Handmade is very cool. No, I don't make tons of money. I do ok, but I had an opportunity to have one of the best there is and I made the purchase. 

I also know this Bottecchia is not fully made in Italy. The carbon frame is made in Taiwan, but shipped back to Italy for paint, detailing and completion. I had an opportunity to buy a Bottecchia EMME2 frame and fork, but it was used and I just wasn't sure about spending the money since it was coming from Russia. To those who don't know, The EMME2 is made by Sarto, as are so many other frames in Italy. You know what I mean Cinelli82220 and Pax-someone makes a product and ten companies put their name on it. Go figure. Sucks about Pinarello though huh? They can't even say they do that. They gotta go to China or Taiwan. Ain't that a *****???

OK, sorry. I am not trying to start any fights, but to argue about a bike you have never ridden and yet you talk smack about isn't really fair is it? Go find someone somewhere who has one and compare it to your TIME. Let us all know how that one goes.

Mark, 

I would love to chat with you or hook up with you on the phone sometime and get some of your input on some things with the Sarto. Thanks and if I upset some people I apologize. I just hate it when people talk but can't back it up. If you can't buy it then don't talk about it. Simple stuff.

Howster


----------



## champamoore

Lifetime transferrable says a huge amount about the company being willing to stand behind the work, too. Nice looking rides. If I ever make the money to go custom, and am considering carbon, will keep Sarto in mind.


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## Cinelli 82220

Howster said:


> To know that my frame is most definitely Handmade is very cool.


Serious question:how is your Sarto more handmade than Cervelo, Specialised or Pinarello? 
The processes to make all of them are very similar. Why do you think having an Italian guy do something is better than having a Taiwanese guy do the exact same thing?
Cutting carbon cloth with shears is the same whether it is done by an Italian, an American or a Chinese. Same for brushing glue onto a joint, putting a tube into a mill to mitre it, or putting a completed frame into an oven to cure it. At the end of the day, a frame will not ride better because the guy cutting the cloth watched the Giro d'Italia earlier in the day. The lady on the Merida assembly line may be much more careful and precise in her workmanship.
If you can provide a reasonable argument that Italians are better at assembling carbon into a frame than Chinese, please do so.



> Sucks about Pinarello though huh? They can't even say they do that. They gotta go to China or Taiwan. Ain't that a *****???


No it doesn't suck at all. I am very happy with my Dogmas. And I think Pina and other companies who subcontract to large fab shops are doing the right thing. Making carbon frames is a lot more about knowledge of how to work with carbon than it is about knowledge of bicycling. The designer decides what they want and the fab shop produces it.
Outsourcing has been going on forever in the bike industry. Colnago did it in the 70s, Masi did it in the 60s.
Sarto's strength is their ability to fine tune the geometry and layup for an individual rider. But if they are making job lots for another label then that advantage is moot.


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## Howster

Hey,

You are absolutely correct. Outsourcing or sub-contracting has been around forever. And I in no way am dissing your Pinarellos or Cervelos. However if you are asking me how my Sarto is more handmade than either of the above, then I feel there may be a difference in what you consider handmade or not.

First Sarto does not put their carbon into a mold and let the rest of the process take its course. They manufacture, by hand, their own tubes. They cut and build the frame by hand. 

The Taiwanese do not build their frames by hand. They are Monocoque frames and that is where even any remote similarity ends. I honestly don't see any bikes coming from Taiwan or China that reads 'Handmade in China' or 'Handmade in Taiwan'. The Chinese frames are pretty much crap and many companies that have or have had their frames made there are gradually going to Taiwan. However Taiwan is not making frames by hand. Even if they were, it is a very, very small number. I can for sure speak with my go-to guy and get some accurate info for you.

I am still kind of blinded by the fact that you aren't able to distinguish a hand-made bike made in Italy, or Germany, or England from a Monocoque frame made in Taiwan or China. The process isn't even remotely the same. Not even close. If you go to this link on YouTube you will see a very neat little video about Sarto. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zF3zd12KlY

I guess if China or Taiwan were making a handmade product as nice as Sarto then we would have something to discuss. But they aren't. Sarto will even make you a custom frame if you want to, but either way all of their bikes are handmade. Also, you should look at some of the other videos on YouTube about Sarto. Listen to Marco and you will hear him mention a handful of other European bicycle builders who have their frames made by Sarto. 

These frame builders are artists in their own right and are not just laying their materials in a mold. Dang, we already went over this. If you enjoy your Cervelo or Pinarello then that is really what it is all about. But don't ride your bike up to me and act like you have a handmade bike made in Italy or wherever and not expect there to be some major discussion. We already know the problems Pinarello are now having because they have touted for years that their frames are 'HANDMADE' in Italy. Their customer base is falling because of this deceit. It isn't like it is a big secret anymore. The cycling world knows this and they, Pinarello and others now have to deal with it. I just don't understand why they wouldn't think this secret would get out at some point in time.

Bottom Line: The two processes are absolutely and unquestionably NOT even close to being simular. I will say this. If you can locate someone with a Sarto and are able to put a few good miles on it, then I say you should do that. Yes, your Dogma may ride very well and do everything you want it to. But lets not go casting stones until you have done so. If you are a discerning rider, then I am confident you will be able to pick out the various nuances of a handmade frame over a Monocoque frame. And if you doubt my words, go to this next link and you will actually hear the commentator mention the fact that the Pinarello Dogma is in fact made in a mold. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0y6S5HTtc

Here's something that will give you a little more insight.

http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/

So sir, as much as I am here not to blast anyone or their bike, I am here now to point out the differences between a true classic company that has been around for many, many years and making exquisite frames with hand tools. I won't apologize if you aren't happy with the answer to your question as it is just the way it happens to be. 

I will say this-I am so freakin' tired of Pinarello and Cervelo and Colnago and others pulling up to other riders with their noses stuck in the air as if they are so much better than all other bikes because they are handmade. THEY ARE NOT! I am not saying this is you because first off, I don't know you. But to spend as much money as owners of these bikes do thinking that they are in fact handmade in Italy is pretty silly. Well, I take that back, they may be made in Italy, but they surely aren't made by those companies. They are most likely handmade by a small company in Italy which goes by the name of Sarto. And that is if the frame is handmade. If not, look to China or Taiwan. I know it hurts, but it cannot be denied.

I will have my Sarto built in the next couple of months as I have been out of work due to an injury. But if you can't locate someone who has a Sarto for you to ride, by all means, let me know and you can come and ride mine. I won't mind a bit. I am most assuredly a friendly guy who just happened to have an opportunity to own a legend of a bike even though not many here in the USA have even heard of them. But they will. They surely will. Also pretty much any cyclist in Europe knows about Sarto and pretty much any company building their products by hand, which in Italy at least, there are many.

I have other areas where the comparison here is relatively the same. I can go into those as well if you wish. I will apologize for the long post as I do get carried away sometimes. Please take a look at some of the videos I have attached and let me know what you think. If you then are not able to differentiate the difference between handmade and Monocoque processes then I guess you would need to actually view the two processes in-person. Then you would definitely understand the difference. OK, I am finished. I already feel as though I have repeated myself a few times and it wasn't intentional. 

On another note, I just purchased a Bottecchia Super 8Avio from Europe. The frame is very different from many I have ever seen. However even it is a full carbon frame that is made in Taiwan. Once completed, the frame is shipped back to Italy where Bottecchia does all of the finishing, painting, detailing and assembly. Actually, the only frame Bottecchia has in its line-up that is handmade in Italy is the EMME2. Guess what, it is made by Sarto. I enjoy the Bottecchia, but like my Lemond Maillot Jaune, it is a Taiwan-built bike. What can I say?

Good luck and happy riding on your Dogma. Ideally that is what it's all about. Be safe and just have fun. 

Cheers,

Howie


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## Howster

Hi,

I had to add to my last post as I left out something from your post. You say that Sarto's strength is in their ability to fine-tune the geometry and layup for an individual rider. I am really hoping that after you delve into the intricacies of frame-building that this post will be moot. 

And I want to say that my argument is not just in Sarto's defense, but to any company that choose to take the time to actually make a product by hand versus a machine of any kind. Do you not understand the advantages of handmade? Sure, it is expensive, time-consuming and can take much time to become experienced. But to make your own tubes, and then assemble them by hand. Are you kidding me? 

Please take heart in knowing that your bike did actually touch land in Italy, and had Italian hands put upon it. But that is the extent of it. Your frame is not handmade. And I am most definitely not pointing fingers at Pinarello. I am pointing fingers at all of the asses who have ridden these bikes and others thinking they were handmade and making everyone else feel as though they were inadequate because their bike was not. So to all those, not you, but to all of those riders who thought that it was funny. Bite my dust. I have five bikes in my garage and all are made in Taiwan except for one. And I know the story behind it. 

I am not a show-off and I am not a person who judges others, but I can promise you this-I will never again have someone come up to me and brag about their bike being handmade anywhere, because I absolutely know 100% that mine is. Not to brag, but it is a fact. 

I think I have made my point. Have a good one.


----------



## tallrider721

Not sure how to weigh in on this. I am no longer a Sarto dealer as my relationship with the importer became untenable. I still have a very good friendship with Enrico Sarto, the company principal and son of the founder, however. However, my shop still sells frames built in the Sarto factory, because many of high quality Italian brands use Sarto frames for the top shelf models. They are distinguishable by their sandwich style rear dropouts, round tubes and the fact that they are made to measure. Also, it won't say monocoque in the contruction description, it will say something else, like "Full Carbon" or some other arbritrary nonsense. In actual fact, the basic platform of the Davanti is actually called the D57 tube set, in the Sarto catelogue of tube sets. I was the rep for California for a year and a half and had many of the tube sets in my possession, including those for the D57. I have photos and actual weights for each individual tube. The 55mm, round shaped down tube for the frame weighed 92 grams. The strength of that tube is enormous. It uses M46J unidirectional carbon fiber which is extremely exotic stuff. A lot of pros have used that frame platform, perhaps with some small changes to specific tubes in order to customize it. For example, Stefano Garzelli had his Bottecchia EMME2 built with a smaller diameter, tapered top tube and slightly smaller diameter down tube. But many other companies are using Sarto frames for the absolute top level bicycles, and more particularly, for their sponsored racers. 

I have a good friend that has been a team mechanic for 3 different teams that have won the Tour de France over the last 15 years. He is one of the best mechanics I've ever met. And he has confirmed what I and many other industry people have observed: the failure rate for chinese manufactured race frames for most of the big companies (all those mentioned above, and many others also) is astonishing. I've been in this industry for 30 years and we've never seen anything like it. I don't know exactly what the public sees and thinks, but they do appear to be drinking the koolaid, so to speak. 

I have also spent 15 years in the high tech (silicon manufacturing) industry and have worked with many Chinese engineers and companies. They do take a different approach, both from a management side and manufacturing priorities, and I'm not saying it is wrong. But the prevailing principal is on meeting the absolute lowest bid, with an emphasis on quantity, not quality. I believe that China can produce products of incredibly high quality, but they they need to make that their priority, and generally that has not been the case in the bicycle industry, in my opinion. 

There was a statement made above that the construction methods were the same, to which Howster protested. He is right, in this case. The methods are quite different. The tubes are made either inhouse at the Sarto factory or at a select few high level carbon suppliers in Northern Italy. When I say high quality I mean their other customers are Ferrari, Ducatti, the Italian aerospace industry, etc. There is more pressure used to create the tubes and the process is typically easier to control because you are only creating one tube at a time. Afterwards, you can inspect each tube for uniformity of wall thickness and other characteristics, before ever using it in a bicycle frame. 

The method that Sarto, Cyfac, Guru and several other custom carbon frame builders use is very similar to the way steel bikes were made for over a century. The tubes are mitered, they are put into a jig that hold them in place while the frame builder adjusts the geometry. They are then bonded into position with epoxy, which holds the tubes in place, similar to tack brazing in the days of steel. Then the joints are wrapped with carbon fabric. They use as much as is needed, in the correct modulus for the job. They use Kevlar when necessary and each bike is tailored to the individual, when ordered in custom. 

My job as a dealer of custom bicycles is to ask a LOT of questions of my clients in order to design the best possible frame for them. It doesn't matter what brand I am ordering from, if I submit a frame design to Enrico Sarto's factory he already knows my system and will almost always build it exacly as I have penned it in BikeCAD Pro. I do include the client's body measurements, just in case, but he has been very complimentary of my designs and we have a very productive relationship. 

The end result is a frame that ends up being more lively in feel, lighter weight relative to it's strength, and durable enough to offer a transferable life time warranty. The other thing you get is a much more beautiful frame. The shapes of the joints and transitions of the frame are not the result of a mold. They are basically like the old school filet brazed steel frames. The result of hand sanding and polishing. Organic shapes that can not be achieved through a simple mold process. I'm sure someone will try to nitpic the semantics of that point, but it is my opinion. 

The bottom line for me, as a dealer of very high end bicycles, that I generally won't sell any molded or monocoque bicycles. I select brands that use tube to tube construction, whatever the material, and I am selling more steel now than I was a couple years ago. Some people have been so snake bit by multiple failures on their Chinese made carbon bikes that they have completely abandoned carbon. They are going for either steel or Ti. There are such excellent options for those materials now that I expect to do about 20% steel next year. 

I now sell Cyfac, Moser, Tommasini, and Carrera (and possibly Calfee in the future). The top level Moser bikes are made by Sarto. The 001 model is basically a Davanti, only with an ovelized down tube. The 7.2 model by Moser is actually the top level Sarto, the Cima Coppi. At Interbike recently I identified at least 5 bike companies using Sarto frames for the top level show bike, including a stunning Cinelli, which was the best version of that frame. I sold one to a client earlier this year and it was a truly mind blowing frame. However, it had a very complex (and troublesome) paint job that ended up making the bike look a like a rolling bill board, in restrospect. But these are custom frames and this bike belonged to someone in the field of SEO and marketing. So the bike reflected her company colors and artwork. 

As far as the behavior of some of the other forum members, this is a community. And there will always be some of those who will defend their favorite brand or their own knowledge and will allow themselves to act rude to others in the process. This is all too common on the internet, partially due to the relatively annonymous nature of this format. 

I, however, am not annonymous. I am a business owner and my reputation is invaluable to me. In my opinion there are enough devisive and arguementitive people on this site that I generally choose not to participate any more. I am extremely busy and don't need to be on here to market, so there is very little incentive for me to do so. It's a shame because there are some passionate and like minded people on this site. I am all for debate, don't get me wrong. And I am someone who values data and collects a lot of data in an industry where that kind of approach is the exception rather than the rule. But there is a point of diminishing returns when dealing with people that thrive on conflict. 

Sorry for not responding sooner, Howster. I'm glad you were able to score a Davanti. It may be one of the best frames in the world. I just shipped one that I had on close out to a gentleman in Indiana. From now on the Davantis I sell will say Moser on them (and perhaps another brand or two that also use Sarto frames). They will also cost about $1000 less than an actual Sarto. For that money you get the Sarto name, more finish options and a transferable lifetime warranty. It is a 3 year warranty on the Moser versions, just because that is what they do across their whole line, most of which are actually molded/monocoque Chinese frames. However, with the exception of a TT frame that I ordered recently for a client (who already owns a Sarto I sold him) I only sell Sarto produced frames, from Moser. I don't have as much confidence in meeting or exceeding my clients expectations with a monocoque frame. 

I have some wheels to build now so back to work for me. 

Best wishes to all.

Mark


----------



## Ride-Fly

Howster said:


> Hi,
> 
> I had to add to my last post as I left out something from your post. You say that Sarto's strength is in their ability to fine-tune the geometry and layup for an individual rider. I am really hoping that after you delve into the intricacies of frame-building that this post will be moot.
> 
> And I want to say that my argument is not just in Sarto's defense, but to any company that choose to take the time to actually make a product by hand versus a machine of any kind. Do you not understand the advantages of handmade? Sure, it is expensive, time-consuming and can take much time to become experienced. But to make your own tubes, and then assemble them by hand. Are you kidding me?
> 
> Please take heart in knowing that your bike did actually touch land in Italy, and had Italian hands put upon it. But that is the extent of it. Your frame is not handmade. And I am most definitely not pointing fingers at Pinarello. I am pointing fingers at all of the asses who have ridden these bikes and others thinking they were handmade and making everyone else feel as though they were inadequate because their bike was not. So to all those, not you, but to all of those riders who thought that it was funny. Bite my dust. I have five bikes in my garage and all are made in Taiwan except for one. And I know the story behind it.
> 
> I am not a show-off and I am not a person who judges others, but I can promise you this-I will never again have someone come up to me and brag about their bike being handmade anywhere, because I absolutely know 100% that mine is. Not to brag, but it is a fact.
> 
> I think I have made my point. Have a good one.


I agree with everything you say in both of your posts. However, I have to say that you almost sound like the person you are railing against: the person who holds their nose up because they "think" are riding a "made in Italy" Bianchi/Pinarello etc. Except, yours is one of the few true handmade 100% Italian frames and theirs are not. I'm sure that isn't what you are doing, but it almost comes across that way. 

BTW, up until recently, Colnago made all their carbon frames in Italy. Handmade. The C59 is sadly, the only one still being made in Italy nowadays. If one wants to get real nitpicky, one can argue that the C59 uses Toray carbon fiber and so isn't 100% Italian.  My C40 and Ext C are 100% handmade in Italy using ATR carbon. My Fondriest TF1 Top Carbon is 100% made in Italy by Minardi. But, I don't hold my nose up against others that ride Asian frames. To each his own. If they enjoy their ride, that is all that matters. I love my bikes- all of them. I would love to get a Cannondale EVO and Giant TCR Advanced SL. Two of the top carbon frames, regardless of where it's made.


----------



## lafrancis

Mark, quick question. Does Sarto manufacture frames for Kyklos? The round down tube and top of the seat stays look very similar. Thanks!


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Howster said:


> If you then are not able to differentiate the difference between handmade and Monocoque processes then I guess you would need to actually view the two processes in-person


I've been working in a place that makes carbon and metal parts for aircraft for over thirty years and have a couple of certificates and diplomas on my wall...I am quite familiar with carbon production. I am writing from the perspective of someone who spends forty to eighty hours a week working in a manufacturing environment, not someone who gets their information from youtube or a bicycle maker's website.
I think you are equating "handmade" with carbon wrap, or carbon tape. This is not better or worse than monocoque, just different. De Rosa uses this process, I have seen it in person, it allows them the ability to make frames in any geometry. It also saves a small builder the expense of large moulds, which can cost from 50k to-well the sky is the limit depending on complexity. Some of our molds are three or four part, or more. The costs are scary and well beyond a company like Sarto.
Some people I work with think that monocoques are superior in their structural integrity, others don't. It is interesting though that even guys with degrees in composite engineering can disagree on that. 
A lot of frames that look like monocoques are not, they are tubes glued together with a plug/socket process. Trek Madones, Cervelo and Look are examples. And Time look like monocoque but are a totally different and much more complex process. 

I'm not discussing this further.

It's ironic that you rant about people sticking their nose in the air when you are doing exactly that. It's also baffling that you consider my opinion unqualified because I have not ridden a Sarto when you admit that you haven't built yours up yet.


----------



## tallrider721

lafrancis said:


> Mark, quick question. Does Sarto manufacture frames for Kyklos? The round down tube and top of the seat stays look very similar. Thanks!


lafrancis,

Based upon the photos on their website and their construction techniques I would say no. It is a modular/monocoque type set up. Looks interesting though. 

Mark


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## Richieg

tallrider721 said:


> There are a lot of options from Sarto. Probably too many, in some respects. However, it gives me, personally, the ability to really tailor a bike specifically for each person. I'm pretty sure Sarto offers more options than any other custom builder in the world. And yes, that is a pretty extreme statement.
> 
> The pricing I just receives is as follows for frames that have stock geometry (6 sizes) but are available in custom fit and geometry for $1000 extra. However, there are also a whole other range of frames, like the Kilogrammo, which are available in cusom only. Those frames range from about $5800 - $7000 with nearly every option you can list including: BB30 or BB86.5, internal routing, seat mast, Di2 routing, Italian or American paint, etc.
> 
> Here is a list of prices for the "stock" frames:
> 
> Davanti (900gms, pro frame): $5500 ($6500 in custom)
> 
> Cima Coppi (700gms, ultra light frame): $6000 ($7000 in custom)
> 
> Classica (1200gms, traditional geometry): $3300 ($4300 in custom)
> 
> Brezzia (1150gms, see comment* frame): $3200 ($4200 in custom)
> 
> *The Brezzia used to be called the Leggera. It is an excellent frame, but uses a slightly lower modulus tube set than the Davanti or Cima Coppi. I sold one last year and they are amazing.
> 
> 
> I have a meeting tomorrow morning with my friend, the importer, to get the up to date pricing for the "custom only" range of frames. Models in that range include:
> 
> Estimated Pricing (this may vary a lot)
> Vipera (1050gms, stout race frame) $6300
> 
> Kilogrammo (1160gms, stable but comfortable) $6600
> 
> Forte (1250gms, built for large riders) $7000
> 
> 
> I am extrapolating based on last fall's price list. These prices should be within a couple hundred bucks I should think. The Forte is what I ride with, and it has extra carbon wrap at the joints so that it has more strength, but also has nice visual cue. It ends up looking like a very thin lug and they are generally terminate to a chevron pattern. It provides a great opportunity for painting the "lugs" and then clear coating the rest of the frame. I had mine done in red. Another client had hers done in Tour de France yellow (or something similar).
> 
> I will post the actual pricing for the custom only range bikes as soon as it becomes available.
> 
> Mark Stemmy
> Optimized Cycling Solutions
> 3113 Alhambra Dr, Ste A
> Cameron Park, CA 95682
> (530)363-2697
> [email protected]
> Sarto Custom Bicycles | Custom Hand Made Bicycle Frames | Optimized Cycling Solutions | Optimized Cycling Solutions – High end bicycles for discerning cyclists
> Optimized Cycling Solutions | Facebook
> Twitter: @OptimizedCycle


 I think it's funny how people stand in line to pay $6200 for a Pinarello Dogma 2 but $6600 for a custom frame built by true artisans is ridiculous. Pinarello is the most over priced, overrated, over marketed, over hyped brand or product in all of cycling. It's like paying $100,000 for a Volvo... nice.car but nothing really special


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## JoopBaldyCoot

As someone who is in the market for a made to measure frame I'd just like to applaud everyone's efforts in participating in this thread, fascinating stuff!


----------



## Ride-Fly

tallrider721 said:


> I now sell Cyfac, Moser, Tommasini, and Carrera (and possibly Calfee in the future).


Hey Mark,

I clicked onto your site and it only shows Mosers. Are you not selling the other mfrs that you mentioned above? In any case, what do you think of Tommasini's VLC3? Does Sarto make those? I thought Tommasini did all of their frames in house- not contracted out to other Italian shops. I really like the Cyfac Absolu. Saw one at Western Bike Works in Portland just before I moved to Germany, and it was ABSOLUTELY beautiful. I don't think I've ever seen nicer details on a carbon frame.


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## mhk1058

Apologies for reviving and old thread but does anyone know what Sarto bike the first image on this thread is ... the red/carbon one?

Here's the pics again.

View attachment 277262

View attachment 277263


----------



## JoelS

Ride-Fly said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> I clicked onto your site and it only shows Mosers. Are you not selling the other mfrs that you mentioned above? In any case, what do you think of Tommasini's VLC3? Does Sarto make those? I thought Tommasini did all of their frames in house- not contracted out to other Italian shops. I really like the Cyfac Absolu. Saw one at Western Bike Works in Portland just before I moved to Germany, and it was ABSOLUTELY beautiful. I don't think I've ever seen nicer details on a carbon frame.


I was just at Mark's shop today. My wife was getting sized for a bike, not sure which one yet. Anyway, his site is currently under a complete redesign and isn't finished yet. There's another line he has now, Formiggli. Good looking frame, very well made, and available in custom.

Note: I don't work for Mark. Just a customer of his.


----------



## JoelS

mhk1058 said:


> Apologies for reviving and old thread but does anyone know what Sarto bike the first image on this thread is ... the red/carbon one?
> 
> Here's the pics again.


Snipped out the pics.

It's the Kilogrammo.


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## tallrider721

Hi mhk1058,

That frame is the Kilogrammo. It was recently sold and just arrived Wednesday with it's new owner in Delaware. It was a special build I had done as a demo/show bike last year. I created the diagram used for the geometry and fit (strange to design a custom bike for no single person in particular) and it was extremely accurate in all measurements when it arrived in my shop. 

I still have a couple of brands that have their top level bikes made by Sarto, as there are a number of them out there. Sarto has a well deserved reputation as being among the best frame builders in the world, in any material or configuration.

Formigli is another builder that is starting to emerge as a signifiant player in the 100% Italian made to measure bikes. KGB in Texas (one of the most elite bike dealers on the planet) is also carrying them now, which further validates them to me. I am working with a couple of potential clients right now on possible Formigli builds. They offer incredible value right now, but I suspect their prices will go up in the next year or so. The frames are excellent and the pricing is very competitve in the custom market.

My focus is on working very closely with every client to ensure that the end result is as close to the perfect bike as possible for that individual rider. From the fit, to the tubing selection, component selection, wheel design (I am a custom wheel builder) and including the paint. It's very important to me that every bike is a balanced package and offers the most value to the rider. 

I've been very selective about the brands I carry and have fantastic relationships with them all, which enables me to better serve my clients. 

Mark


----------



## mhk1058

Thanks JoelS and Mark.

It's gorgeous, I think I'm in love!


----------



## Barsuk

Howster said:


> Hi,
> 
> I had to add to my last post as I left out something from your post. You say that Sarto's strength is in their ability to fine-tune the geometry and layup for an individual rider. I am really hoping that after you delve into the intricacies of frame-building that this post will be moot.
> 
> And I want to say that my argument is not just in Sarto's defense, but to any company that choose to take the time to actually make a product by hand versus a machine of any kind. Do you not understand the advantages of handmade? Sure, it is expensive, time-consuming and can take much time to become experienced. But to make your own tubes, and then assemble them by hand. Are you kidding me?
> 
> Please take heart in knowing that your bike did actually touch land in Italy, and had Italian hands put upon it. But that is the extent of it. Your frame is not handmade. And I am most definitely not pointing fingers at Pinarello. I am pointing fingers at all of the asses who have ridden these bikes and others thinking they were handmade and making everyone else feel as though they were inadequate because their bike was not. So to all those, not you, but to all of those riders who thought that it was funny. Bite my dust. I have five bikes in my garage and all are made in Taiwan except for one. And I know the story behind it.
> 
> I am not a show-off and I am not a person who judges others, but I can promise you this-I will never again have someone come up to me and brag about their bike being handmade anywhere, because I absolutely know 100% that mine is. Not to brag, but it is a fact.
> 
> I think I have made my point. Have a good one.


Unfortunately, Italian law says that for a product to be made ENTIRELY in Italy, ALL parts must be manufactured there. The 1K Japanese carbon fiber is not.

Therefore, they cannot state it is 100% Made in Italy. Italian law doesn't allow it and ALL the manufactures' know that. That's why you'll never see a 100% Made in Italy sicker on ANY of these bikes.

1K carbon is nice, but the French make the best aerospace carbon fiber hands down.

Maybe not the best "builders" currently ... but so it goes. At any point the Sarto is awesome and ridden by quite a few "top pros" (Wiggo one of them) under many common names to satisfy the "sponsors".


----------



## aclinjury

Barsuk said:


> Unfortunately, Italian law says that for a product to be made ENTIRELY in Italy, ALL parts must be manufactured there. The 1K Japanese carbon fiber is not.
> 
> Therefore, they cannot state it is 100% Made in Italy. Italian law doesn't allow it and ALL the manufactures' know that. That's why you'll never see a 100% Made in Italy sicker on ANY of these bikes.
> 
> 1K carbon is nice, but the French make the best aerospace carbon fiber hands down.
> 
> Maybe not the best "builders" currently ... but so it goes. At any point the Sarto is awesome and ridden by quite a few "top pros" (Wiggo one of them) under many common names to satisfy the "sponsors".


Are you saying that Wiggo's Pinarello is actually a rebranded Sarto???


----------



## Barsuk

Nope. Cannot comment.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Whatever Sarto could deliver with a frame could be done by the Pinarello OEM just as easily. Actually, ever more easily. No problem at all to throw in a different layup, make the tubes lighter or stiffer or more flexible. Brailsford himself has said as much. 

I'm more and more skeptical of Sarto's claims. Next they will be claiming they built Merckx's hour bike.


----------



## Barsuk

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Whatever Sarto could deliver with a frame could be done by the Pinarello OEM just as easily. Actually, ever more easily. No problem at all to throw in a different layup, make the tubes lighter or stiffer or more flexible. Brailsford himself has said as much.
> 
> I'm more and more skeptical of Sarto's claims. Next they will be claiming they built Merckx's hour bike.


Well, I don't think you would be so skeptical if you ever had one in your hands and rode one.

Besides, we did have "tyler" chime in as a sidebar.


----------



## aclinjury

Just the other day, I went for a massive New Year Day ride here is Socal. Now Socal probably one of the most pimped out cycling location one could find. I did spot 2 Sarto's. I will say this, their paint quality is nice, and I'd compare them to the very top custom builders.

Having said that, I'll take a steel Cinelli XCR over any kind of uber carbon bike ANY DAY!


----------



## tvad

Barsuk said:


> That's why you'll never see a 100% Made in Italy sicker on ANY of these bikes.


I owned a 2013 Pinarello, and it had a Made In Italy sticker on the frame. If your point is one won't see the "100%" portion on a label...then I would argue that one won't often see "100%" on _any_ sticker no matter where a bike is made and no matter if it's made entirely of parts manufactured in the same country.

Have you ever seen a 100% Made in Taiwan sticker?


----------



## Cinelli 82220

tvad said:


> Have you ever seen a 100% Made in Taiwan sticker?


Manufacturing is so globally interconnected nowadays, nothing is 100% anything. 

BTW neither of my Pinarellos say made in Italy, I want one of those stickers.

The story about Italian made meaning 100% is so wrong it makes me laugh. Check the EC website on content regualtions.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Barsuk said:


> Well, I don't think you would be so skeptical if you ever had one in your hands and rode one


It's a bike frame, not the Shroud of Turin. There's nothing magical about it.

A couple of Sarto frames have been on EBay for a long time with no takers.


----------



## bikerjulio

tvad said:


> Have you ever seen a 100% Made in Taiwan sticker?


My Fuji proudly sports a "Made in Taiwan" sticker.


----------



## tvad

bikerjulio said:


> My Fuji proudly sports a "Made in Taiwan" sticker.


I think you miss the point of my comment, which is focused on the "100%" portion of the "Made In ____ " label as was initially brought up in post #110.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Generally as long as a certain amount of "value" is added to a product it can be seemed made in the country where the value is added.

For an Italian bicycle, and in this context I mean a complete bicycle, if it is made with enough Campagnolo parts and Italian finishing kit it could be legally "Made in Italy" despite having a Taiwan made frame. I suspect this is why some companies import bare carbon frames and add fittings, headsets and paint. Doing that adds value to the frame and enables the Italian company to call it Made In Italy.


----------



## tvad

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Manufacturing is so globally interconnected nowadays, nothing is 100% anything.


Absolutely. 



Cinelli 82220 said:


> BTW neither of my Pinarellos say made in Italy.


Neither of the above frames are mine, but both show the "Made In Italy" sticker, which is on the front of the seat tube just below the derailleur braze-on. Mine was the same.


----------



## ultimobici

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Generally as long as a certain amount of "value" is added to a product it can be seemed made in the country where the value is added.
> 
> For an Italian bicycle, and in this context I mean a complete bicycle, if it is made with enough Campagnolo parts and Italian finishing kit it could be legally "Made in Italy" despite having a Taiwan made frame. I suspect this is why some companies import bare carbon frames and add fittings, headsets and paint. Doing that adds value to the frame and enables the Italian company to call it Made In Italy.


Not quite. Under EU law it is the frame that they have to add value to by finishing it rather than just hanging a Record group on it.


----------



## Bill2

tvad said:


> I think you miss the point of my comment, which is focused on the "100%" portion of the "Made In ____ " label as was initially brought up in post #110.


100% is nonsense. Campy parts made in Vicenza contain minerals mined outside the confines of Italy, plastics made from ME petroleum, and Russian natural gas. It's nonsensical to talk about 100%. Same for frames (even steel ones). :idea:


----------



## Bill2

ultimobici said:


> Not quite. Under EU law it is the frame that they have to add value to by finishing it rather than just hanging a Record group on it.


Can you give us a link to that law? Interesting to see if the steel tubing has to be drawn in Italy, our only welded together here.


----------



## tvad

ultimobici said:


> Not quite. Under EU law it is the frame that they have to add value to by finishing it rather than just hanging a Record group on it.


The quote in your post from Cinelli 82220 mentions finishing the frame by adding "fittings, headsets, and _paint_".


----------



## tvad

Bill2 said:


> It's nonsensical to talk about 100%.


If the discussion is about complete bikes, then I agree, but this thread is discussing frame manufacture, and in this regard I believe there are many examples of frames that could be 100% made in the country of manufacture: Trek Madone 7 Series, Cervelo R5 California, BMC frames, Time, Colnago C59, etc.

Now, I don't know for certain that everything that goes into and onto these frame is made in the the country of manufacture (the paint, or the carbon fiber might be imported for example), but it'd be nice if it was so.


----------



## Bill2

tvad said:


> Now, I don't know for certain that everything that goes into and onto these frame is made in the the country of manufacture (the paint, or the carbon fiber might be imported for example), but it'd be nice if it was so.


Why does it matter? If your steel Italian-made frame contained an alloy mined in Africa that would bother you?


----------



## tvad

Bill2 said:


> Why does it matter? If your steel Italian-made frame contained an alloy mined in Africa that would bother you?


It _doesn't_ matter to me, but it'd be nice for those for whom it does matter.


----------



## Bill2

tvad said:


> It _doesn't_ matter to me, but it'd be nice for those for whom it does matter.


Personally it doesn't matter to me whether anyone goofy enough to care whether all the metal alloys, gas and welding rod used to construct his frame originate in the same country feels it's nice or not.


----------



## tvad

Bill2 said:


> Personally it doesn't matter to me whether anyone goofy enough to care whether all the metal alloys, gas and welding rod used to construct his frame originate in the same country feels it's nice or not.


I'll make a note.


----------



## Bill2

tvad said:


> Super.


And the unicycle he rode in on.


----------



## ultimobici

Bill2 said:


> Can you give us a link to that law? Interesting to see if the steel tubing has to be drawn in Italy, our only welded together here.


Can't find the exact law but this explains the situation with reference to Italy's attempts to tighten it up.
AFP: 'Made in Italy' ... by undocumented workers


> Goods whose production involved more than one country shall be deemed to originate in the country where they underwent their last, substantial, economically justified processing


So, a frame costing $100 built in China but then shipped to Europe and painted in Italy can legally be labelled "Made In Italy" if it retails for €500.


----------



## ultimobici

Read it again. The statement you refer to comes at the end of a paragraph that also contains this 


> _or an Italian bicycle, and in this context I mean a complete bicycle, if it is made with enough Campagnolo parts and Italian finishing kit it could be legally "Made in Italy" despite having a Taiwan made frame._


Funny thing is if it has a full Campagnolo group on it, Vento wheels, Deda finishing kit and Vittoria tyres it is pretty much all NOT made in Italy. Much of the 10 speed and some 11 speed Campag kit is produced in Campagnolo's factory in Romania, wheels are also Romania, or in the case of Fulcrum Taiwan, brakes are Taiwan too. Deda is Taiwan and Vittoria is Thailand.

Try finding an Italian produced fork. You'll struggle, as all the main brands are made in the Far East. Many true Italian producers use stays from Deda or Columbus. Problem is they're made in the Far East too! So very often the label really should read like the old Reynolds 531 transfers, "Main Triangle Fatto In Italia".


----------



## tvad

ultimobici said:


> Read it again. The statement you refer to comes at the end of a paragraph that also contains this...


Right. I think the fly in the ointment is what the person who wrote the paragraph specifically means by "finishing". I took it to include painting, among other things. But, I'm not going to debate his point
considering the ambiguity of his meaning of "finishing" or "finishing kit".

All I know is my Pinarello was labelled "Made in Italy", although the frame was manufactured in Taiwan. I believe Pinarello paint their frames in Italy, which perhaps in conjunction with the design originating in Italy qualifies the frame for the "Made In Italy" designation.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

tvad said:


> I believe there are many examples of frames that could be 100% made in the country of manufacture: Trek Madone 7 Series, Cervelo R5 California, BMC frames, Time, Colnago C59,


Allow me to ramble...
I think Trek use US sourced carbon. Don't know about Cervelo. BMC probably imports their spools of yarn. Time would have no problem getting French carbon. Interstingly Colnago had a Toray sticker on the very first C59s but it disappeared quick! I know Colnago used to use carbon cloth from Belgium, I saw it in the Belgian company's product info, but never on the Colnago site. 
Also, when you buy a pile of carbon, you don't always know where it comes from anyway. Many of the really big producers have plants worldwide to better serve local markets. Say I order 100 rolls of XXX from company YYY. They might not have any in stock at their Canadian warehouse so they might dropship it from the US or UK or Japan. Surely if Colnago needs a certain carbon and their regular supplier is out, they would get a similar product from someone else. They aren't going to put production on hold for two weeks while they wait. 
What matters is whether the product and vendor are reputable, not where it is made.
And I will say right now that mainland China has been producing some amazing high tech stuff lately. Anyone who thinks Italy is ahead of China should reflect on the fact that China has landed a probe on the moon, while Italy is at best a cheapskate member of ESA.


----------



## tvad

Cinelli 82220 said:


> What matters is whether the product and vendor are reputable, not where it is made.


Absolutely agree.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

tvad said:


> All I know is my Pinarello was labelled "Made in Italy", although the frame was manufactured in Taiwan. I believe Pinarello paint their frames in Italy, which perhaps in conjunction with the design originating in Italy qualifies the frame for the "Made In Italy" designation.


I will attampt to disambiguate.
We've all seen the piles of raw Dogmas at the Pina plant in Italy. The value of the raw frame is probably pretty low compared to the value of the finished product. The ones I have seen lack any fittings:bottle mounts, headsets, seat collars, cable guides. Even dropouts. Nobody outside a few at Pina know the price paid for these. 
The value added is very high when the small parts are added, the threaded BB shell is fitted, the dropouts are attached and aligned and the frames are painted. It takes a lot of man-hours to finish the frame. These aren't tasks for a home handyman, espacially on a mass production scale. There is a large cost to that labour and it requires specialised skills and specialised tooling. So I think it is fair that the frame is labelled made in Italy.
Schwinn put Made in USA on their Paramounts but they had Reynolds tubing, Prugnat or Nervex lugs (I think) and Campagnolo dropouts.


----------



## tvad

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I will attempt to disambiguate.


Be sure to wear safety goggles.


----------



## Bill2

ultimobici; said:


> Can't find the exact law but this explains the situation with reference to Italy's attempts to tighten it up.
> AFP: 'Made in Italy' ... by undocumented workers
> So, a frame costing $100 built in China but then shipped to Europe and painted in Italy can legally be labelled "Made In Italy" if it retails for €500.


Your cited article is about the garment district of Prato (in Tuscany) where illegal aliens from China are assembling (sewing together) garment pieces cut in China. This allows them to be labeled Made in Italy ("Prado" phony trademark brand labels is a separate issue). As the trades union guy is quoted "Valeria Fedeli, secretary general of the textile union Filtea-CGIL, said: "So it is the country where the last phase of production takes place that gets the 'Made in' label, even if the material comes from another country and only the assembly or finishing took place here." 

So if you're trying to make an analogy with bicycles, the precut carbon fabric pieces would be imported from China and the assembly of them into a bike frame here in Italy would warrant a Made in Italy label. That's a bit different to painting/gruppo installation.


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## ultimobici

I was referring to the EuU rules that govern the "Made in" label. This explains its current definition.
EU threat to 'Made In Britain' labels | UK | News | Daily Express


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Kind of funny the article in your link has a picture of a Rolls-Royce with the caption "Leading British Brand".

Rolls-Royce is owned by BMW now.


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## Cinelli 82220

Bill2 said:


> So if you're trying to make an analogy with bicycles, the precut carbon fabric pieces would be imported from China and the assembly of them into a bike frame here in Italy would warrant a Made in Italy label. That's a bit different to painting/gruppo installation.


Colnago did use Toray tubes in their C59? That would be a similar analogy. didn't stop all their fanboys from gassing on about it being 100% Italian.


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## ultimobici

True. But the brand is still British, no matter who owns it. The cars are still British built, albeit with a BMW engine.

By your definition this is Italian I presume?


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## Bill2

Food for thought:
ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: What Do Tomato Puree and Some Framesets Have in Common?


----------



## mambo

It's funny how the world works. I was looking for a custom frame and found this thread when I was looking for information on the Sarto frames. I contacted Mark (tallrider) to ask why he had stopped stocking Sarto, just in case it was due to quality problems. In a roundabout way, I ended up meeting Enrico Sarto at the Padova Expobike and was invited by him to visit the factory. As a result of this interaction, Mark is now a Sarto dealer again. ALL the problems stemmed from the importer at the time. I can vouch that Sarto frames are truly custom made. When I visited the factory, Enrico's father Antonio was carrying out tests to produce their own tubing for their frames (lots of tut tutting and expletives in Italian) They are now in the process of fully tooling up to manufacture the tubes in house (tubes were previously sourced in Italy from the aerospace industry - I saw the stickers on each tube) which they explained will allow them to make the frames even more tailored to individual riders as each tube can be individually tailored to the intended frame use and rider characteristics.
Whilst I was at the factory, they were building frames for a World Tour team, these were to be badged with the teams frame sponsor! The list of pros who come knocking at their door was impressive, especially considering that they have to pay for the Sarto frames out of their own pocket. But this is where Sarto are different to other frame builders. They are able to replicate tube shapes of frame sponsors whilst dialling in particular qualities as required by the rider. I will soon be a proud owner of a Sarto frame and will post photos when it arrives. I have got to know Mark quite well throughout this process and can honestly say, he is one of the most genuine and knowledgeable cycling industry professionals I have had the pleasure to meet. Anybody purchasing a frame, bike or wheels from him will get a very personal VIP service and gain access to his extensive knowledge. He doesn't advertise it, but not too long ago Mark discovered and provided solutions to a problem with ENVE rims. This is why despite the fact that I live on another continent, I may send him my rims and hubs for him to build!


----------



## keihoop

Had to chime in finally - whata thread!!

So - I am climbing OFF my Colnago C60 Italia and have just sent in my order for a Custom Sarto Dinamica. I promise to send feedback as well.


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## mambo

Hi Keihoop,

The Dinamica is a superb frame. You will not be disappointed. I sincerely think it is one of the best frames in the world (and I know a couple of pro riders who will agree with me). It is stiff and comfortable. Plus I personally like the classic look. wait until you see the size of the downtube!

I used the Dinamica as one of my references when having my own frames designed. It really is that good.

Please give us your feedback. I'd be interested to know what your personal opinion is, especially as the Colnago frame you've been riding is not to be sniffed at. A comparison would also be nice.


----------



## mambo

Cinelli 82220 said:


> What matters is whether the product and vendor are reputable, not where it is made.
> And I will say right now that mainland China has been producing some amazing high tech stuff lately. Anyone who thinks Italy is ahead of China should reflect on the fact that China has landed a probe on the moon, while Italy is at best a cheapskate member of ESA.


I think many of the people who go on about tech ect are missing something very important. 

Firstly, the tech for building carbon frames is available to anybody as are the best materials. It's not the bicycle companies who do the research into those materials but rather the manufacturers and engineers are aerospace companies or other hi tech companies. In the grand scheme of things the cycling industry is a poor relative and amounts for a tiny percentage of the carbon sold when compared to the aerospace and other tech industries.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that there is something that although intangible, I consider to be of utmost importance, and that is pride in the finished product. This to me is the big difference between mass producing in Asia and building frames in Italy. Factories in Asia, and this is just the nature of the business model over there, concentrate on throughput and numbers. As long as the product meets the standards required by the buyer that's enough, and employees work by rote.

My experience in Italy is that the frame builders consider themselves to be artisans, they take huge pride in their work and have input into how the frame can best be built for the purpose or rider. There are little touches under the paint that purchasers may not see, that make a difference both aesthetically and in final performance.

If I may make an analogy - a bit like a cake - you may use the same ingredients, but a well made home baked cake will always taste better than it's industrial well made homogenised counterpart.


----------



## Notvintage

PaxRomana said:


> If you are going to buy a Sarto, Pelizzoli, etc., put Campy on it. As the OP pointed out, he doesn't even spec Red. Why? Because he sells high-end Italian frames. It's common sense.


Well said. Couldn't agree more. SCAM and Shimano are great. . . on a mountain bike.


----------



## ultimobici

Notvintage said:


> Well said. Couldn't agree more. SCAM and Shimano are great. . . on a mountain bike.


Here's the funny thing. Go to any Gran Fondo and you'll see wall to wall SRAM & Shimano on carbon. There's plenty of Campagnolo but far less than you'd think. 

A few years back I had an Italian customer who had a Look with Dura-Ace, FSA & American Classic. Loved it, but one he day came in telling me he had to have a Tutto Campa bike as he was now in the uk. His rationale was that a bike like his was exotic in Italy, whereas he had to fly the flag abroad.

That said, it has to be Campagnolo as the rest is garbage in comparison!


----------



## stevesbike

These sorts of posts are typically from people who have no experience in the bike industry. Italian-made frames are notorious for quality control issues. It's not as bad as in the day when almost all steel frames from Italy had to spend a night on the alignment table because they were so out of alignment, but tolerances in manufacturing are still the strictest in Taiwan (and then the companies that have moved to mainland China from there). It's also not true that all the technologies are equally available to everyone in every country. There are a lot of patented technologies that are used in bike manufacturing (e.g., resin extrusion methods) that do not leave Asia. That's a reason why the most technologically advanced Colnagos are now made there. Also, a bike isn't a cake. 







mambo said:


> I think many of the people who go on about tech ect are missing something very important.
> 
> Firstly, the tech for building carbon frames is available to anybody as are the best materials. It's not the bicycle companies who do the research into those materials but rather the manufacturers and engineers are aerospace companies or other hi tech companies. In the grand scheme of things the cycling industry is a poor relative and amounts for a tiny percentage of the carbon sold when compared to the aerospace and other tech industries.
> 
> Anyway, the point I want to make is that there is something that although intangible, I consider to be of utmost importance, and that is pride in the finished product. This to me is the big difference between mass producing in Asia and building frames in Italy. Factories in Asia, and this is just the nature of the business model over there, concentrate on throughput and numbers. As long as the product meets the standards required by the buyer that's enough, and employees work by rote.
> 
> My experience in Italy is that the frame builders consider themselves to be artisans, they take huge pride in their work and have input into how the frame can best be built for the purpose or rider. There are little touches under the paint that purchasers may not see, that make a difference both aesthetically and in final performance.
> 
> If I may make an analogy - a bit like a cake - you may use the same ingredients, but a well made home baked cake will always taste better than it's industrial well made homogenised counterpart.


----------



## ultimobici

stevesbike said:


> These sorts of posts are typically from people who have no experience in the bike industry. Italian-made frames are notorious for quality control issues. It's not as bad as in the day when almost all steel frames from Italy had to spend a night on the alignment table because they were so out of alignment, but tolerances in manufacturing are still the strictest in Taiwan (and then the companies that have moved to mainland China from there). It's also not true that all the technologies are equally available to everyone in every country. There are a lot of patented technologies that are used in bike manufacturing (e.g., resin extrusion methods) that do not leave Asia. That's a reason why the most technologically advanced Colnagos are now made there. Also, a bike isn't a cake.


Funny, wasn't aware of Colnago moving C60 production to Asia. Try getting an M10 with custom geometry too. It won't happen.

Quite a few frames produced in Taiwan are now made in China. In the main this is purely down to cost. Cannondale are a prime example of this. 

To suggest that Italian built frames from the likes of Sarto, Billato et all are poorly finished suggests you have no knowledge of them at all. 

Just to be clear, I work in he industry and deal with both Italian produced frames and products from the Far East, and have done for nigh in two decades.


----------



## stevesbike

The V1-r is the most advanced frame Colnago has made. Custom geometry is a vanity issue for 99.9% of all riders. Even T.V. now chooses the V1-r over the c60. Colnagos are made in Taiwan, not China, as are Wilier, Pinarello, etc. There are still a number of patented technologies that don't leave Taiwan. 

Sarto are nice bikes, but they are tube-to-tube, which is not the best manufacturing method for carbon frames and is done primarily to get the niche market of custom carbon frames and to keep down the costs of molds. If people want to spend their money on the labor costs of a frame, then fine, but the notion that they are superior in performance or represent superior technology as the post I was responding to is simply nonsense and marketing babble. 



ultimobici said:


> Funny, wasn't aware of Colnago moving C60 production to Asia. Try getting an M10 with custom geometry too. It won't happen.
> 
> Quite a few frames produced in Taiwan are now made in China. In the main this is purely down to cost. Cannondale are a prime example of this.
> 
> To suggest that Italian built frames from the likes of Sarto, Billato et all are poorly finished suggests you have no knowledge of them at all.
> 
> Just to be clear, I work in he industry and deal with both Italian produced frames and products from the Far East, and have done for nigh in two decades.


----------



## ultimobici

stevesbike said:


> The V1-r is the most advanced frame Colnago has made. Custom geometry is a vanity issue for 99.9% of all riders. Even T.V. now chooses the V1-r over the c60. Colnagos are made in Taiwan, not China, as are Wilier, Pinarello, etc. There are still a number of patented technologies that don't leave Taiwan.
> 
> Sarto are nice bikes, but they are tube-to-tube, which is not the best manufacturing method for carbon frames and is done primarily to get the niche market of custom carbon frames and to keep down the costs of molds. If people want to spend their money on the labor costs of a frame, then fine, but the notion that they are superior in performance or represent superior technology as the post I was responding to is simply nonsense and marketing babble.


I'll take a tube to tube constructed frame every day of the week. Monocoque frames are too harsh for my liking. That's not marketing bs. That's experience of riding both types in several iterations. Same wheels, same saddle etc. Only variance was the frame set. Super6 was wooden, Centro Uno was harsh, as was De Rosa King RS. VXRS was comfortable as was C59. Current carbon is also individual tubes and manages to combine rigidity with comfort with the right balance.


----------



## Jay Strongbow

ultimobici said:


> I'll take a tube to tube constructed frame every day of the week. Monocoque frames are too harsh for my liking. *That's not marketing bs*. That's experience of riding both types in several iterations. Same wheels, same saddle etc. Only variance was the frame set. Super6 was wooden, Centro Uno was harsh, as was De Rosa King RS. VXRS was comfortable as was C59. Current carbon is also individual tubes and manages to combine rigidity with comfort with the right balance.


Correct. It's not marketing BS......it's internet poster BS.


----------



## stevesbike

that's a lot of generalizations, but Thomas Voeckler - about as traditional as they get among pro riders and who used to ride a custom c60 - thinks the V1-r isn't too harsh for long, mountainous Tour stages. Ride what you like, but I was responding to the particular myths the poster made about technology and manufacturing.... 











ultimobici said:


> I'll take a tube to tube constructed frame every day of the week. Monocoque frames are too harsh for my liking. That's not marketing bs. That's experience of riding both types in several iterations. Same wheels, same saddle etc. Only variance was the frame set. Super6 was wooden, Centro Uno was harsh, as was De Rosa King RS. VXRS was comfortable as was C59. Current carbon is also individual tubes and manages to combine rigidity with comfort with the right balance.


----------



## ultimobici

stevesbike said:


> that's a lot of generalizations, but Thomas Voeckler - about as traditional as they get among pro riders and who used to ride a custom c60 - thinks the V1-r isn't too harsh for long, mountainous Tour stages. Ride what you like, but I was responding to the particular myths the poster made about technology and manufacturing....
> 
> View attachment 300973


Think you're falling for the marketing bs mate. Tommy rides what he's paid to ride, plain & simple. I doubt very much that he actually has a true custom frame either. Velonews seem to have missed that his c59 was a stock 50s, as was his C60 too I suspect.


----------



## Notvintage

Richieg said:


> I think it's funny how people stand in line to pay $6200 for a Pinarello Dogma 2 but $6600 for a custom frame built by true artisans is ridiculous. Pinarello is the most over priced, overrated, over marketed, over hyped brand or product in all of cycling.


Absolutely! Chinarello is a hype brand devoid of any substance. They hide behind Italian heritage (Like Wilier others), and ask top dollar for a frame made in China/Taiwan for 30 cents on the dollar.


----------



## stevesbike

Actually, he rides what he wants (it's even stipulated in his contract) and he never rode an M10 although most of his team did in 2013 Tour. Here's his c60 from the Tour as well. Point is, the V1-r is the technologically superior bike in every measurable facet and that's why TV rides it on the most technologically demanding stages. The fact that it's not made in Italy doesn't mean it's somehow better because bikes are like cakes (or whatever silly analogy people here were making). 










ultimobici said:


> Think you're falling for the marketing bs mate. Tommy rides what he's paid to ride, plain & simple. I doubt very much that he actually has a true custom frame either. Velonews seem to have missed that his c59 was a stock 50s, as was his C60 too I suspect.


----------



## ultimobici

stevesbike said:


> Actually, he rides what he wants (it's even stipulated in his contract) and he never rode an M10 although most of his team did in 2013 Tour. Here's his c60 from the Tour as well. Point is, the V1-r is the technologically superior bike in every measurable facet and that's why TV rides it on the most technologically demanding stages. The fact that it's not made in Italy doesn't mean it's somehow better because bikes are like cakes (or whatever silly analogy people here were making).
> 
> View attachment 300974


The analogy is accurate. The ingredients see just one part of it, the other is the way those ingredients are combined. Cervelo frames are renowned in the industry for their abysmal failure rate. They crack at the drop of a hat. I've seen just the uk warranty returns first hand. That's what happens if you churn out frames in China. Holding Colnago up as a beacon of quality is a red herring. They're made by Giant who are one of only two companies to weave their own carbon in house. But there are a lot of frames made to a price that maximises their brand's profit margin. A high proportion of frames are produced for under a couple of hundred dollars and sold for several thousand. To deride the likes of Sarto or Bertogletti and say that they are inferior is ignorant, just as dismissing any frame from Asia. There are good frames made in the Far East, just as there are good frames made in Europe and the U.S. You're just less likely to find your top tube stuffed with the Beijing Daily News!


----------



## stevesbike

I think you're missing the point - I was responding to a claim that a frame is better simply because it is produced in Italy. This is said on these forums a lot. Fact is, frames today depend on engineering and technology, not craftsmanship. Since you claim to know so much about Sarto, I'm sure you know he says that as well. Your comment about Cervelo is ridiculous - the country of origin had nothing to do with their failure rate (which Rinard said isn't above industry rates). Asia is a technologically superior region compared especially to Italy - I posted research on this in another thread. You seem to be recycling a lot of nonsense about Asian manufacturing.



ultimobici said:


> The analogy is accurate. The ingredients see just one part of it, the other is the way those ingredients are combined. Cervelo frames are renowned in the industry for their abysmal failure rate. They crack at the drop of a hat. I've seen just the uk warranty returns first hand. That's what happens if you churn out frames in China. Holding Colnago up as a beacon of quality is a red herring. They're made by Giant who are one of only two companies to weave their own carbon in house. But there are a lot of frames made to a price that maximises their brand's profit margin. A high proportion of frames are produced for under a couple of hundred dollars and sold for several thousand. To deride the likes of Sarto or Bertogletti and say that they are inferior is ignorant, just as dismissing any frame from Asia. There are good frames made in the Far East, just as there are good frames made in Europe and the U.S. You're just less likely to find your top tube stuffed with the Beijing Daily News!


----------



## ultimobici

stevesbike said:


> I think you're missing the point - I was responding to a claim that a frame is better simply because it is produced in Italy. This is said on these forums a lot. Fact is, frames today depend on engineering and technology, not craftsmanship. Since you claim to know so much about Sarto, I'm sure you know he says that as well. Your comment about Cervelo is ridiculous - the country of origin had nothing to do with their failure rate (which Rinard said isn't above industry rates). Asia is a technologically superior region compared especially to Italy - I posted research on this in another thread. You seem to be recycling a lot of nonsense about Asian manufacturing.


True a frame is not intrinsically better merely by virtue of its country of manufacture. 

With regard to Cervelo warranty returns, Damon Rinard is hardly unbiased is he? I've seen it both as a dealer as well as at the U.K.'s previous distributor. I am not talking about failed frames that have snapped, but all QC issues. That covers paint issues, poorly aligned frames, misshaped BB shells as wee as cracked frames. For frames at this level I would not expect the same returns levels as budget frames. 

It's interesting that a few Italian manufacturers are bringing production of their top frames back to Italy. De Rosa have brought the production of their frames back after a few years of some being made in Taiwan. Colnago still produce their C60 in Italy. The reason isn't necessarily the actual quality of material or a skills deficit, but more likely the result of difficulty maintaining oversight of production to maintain those standards.

Anyway I'm off to ride the hills of Rome before tomorrow's GF Campagnolo Roma. 

Ciao!


----------



## fatcitywicked

I'd rather have my bike made for me be guys like Sarto, then in some unnamed factory in Asia. Bertoletti and Sarto make frames because that's what they want to do. While people making frames in asian factories couldn't care less if it's a bike or a washing machine. Not that they don't do a good job, but it's just a job. It might be misplaced romanticizing , but I always like the idea of buying goods from people who are passionate about the products they make.
4800 dollars for a custom Sarto frame isn't out of line when comparing it to manufactured asian frames from the big brand names.


----------



## Cinelli 82220

Jay Strongbow said:


> Correct. It's not marketing BS......it's internet poster BS.


Wouldn't it be great to do a double-blind test:

One each of tubes joined by wrapping like De Rosa or Sarto and one of mono tubes bonded like a Madone or TCR.
One of each from Italy and Taiwan.

Let these guys see if they can tell them apart.


----------



## Bill2

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Wouldn't it be grade to do a double-blind test:
> 
> One each of tubes joined by wrapping like De Rosa or Sarto and one of mono tubes bonded like a Madone or TCR.
> One of each from Italy and Taiwan.
> 
> Let these guys see if they can tell them apart.


I saw a test like that in Bicycle Guide when it still existed: one Ti frame, one cro-mo, one high end steel, one scandium, all same angles, size, paint etc. Can't remember how they ended up ranked.


----------



## Notvintage

PaxRomana said:


> You have to be kidding me with those prices.
> 
> My interest just went to zero. I think I'll stick with Time.
> 
> Thanks for posting the prices anyway.


I totally agree, I like my Time NXS more than the C59 I had. And this custom geometry crap? With all the different reach bars and stems, unless your are a 1%er freak, off the rack fits fine.


----------



## ultimobici

Notvintage said:


> I totally agree, I like my Time NXS more than the C59 I had. And this custom geometry crap? With all the different reach bars and stems, unless your are a 1%er freak, off the rack fits fine.


Have to agree to disagree.

My current bikes are both designed to give me the best of both worlds. Handling of the Merak coupled with fit of a VXRS. The Merak was always a compromise on fit. Forks had been cut already so it was a hair too low at the front. STA coupled with 545 top tube meant I had to stick with the saddle & post and a 110 stem. VXRS was a perfect fit but was twitchy on steeper descents. The solution was to combine the two. Now I have a perfect fit and sure footed handling. No stock frame fits the bill.

Fit is not just about top tube length, stem length & bar reach/drop. Saddle height & setback are the first things that need setting. Only then can the reach and drop be considered. 

Far too many riders approach selection of s frame from the wrong point in the process. Two frames can appear ostensibly the same but a fraction of a degree difference in STA makes a big difference in suitability. 

But what do I know? I only do it for a living.


----------



## stevesbike

That's BS about the STA - for one thing, if two frames are identical except for a < 1 degree STA, setting a saddle fore/aft identically in terms of setback relative to the BB will make the effective STA identical and will thus make the effective reach identical as well. 

You seem to need to appeal to ad hominen factors to try to bolster your view, but there are a lot of people in the business who perpetuate myths about fit. Usually the arguments about the limitations of stock fit are of this type. The truth is, custom geometry is almost always about vanity and not anatomy. 




ultimobici said:


> Have to agree to disagree.
> 
> My current bikes are both designed to give me the best of both worlds. Handling of the Merak coupled with fit of a VXRS. The Merak was always a compromise on fit. Forks had been cut already so it was a hair too low at the front. STA coupled with 545 top tube meant I had to stick with the saddle & post and a 110 stem. VXRS was a perfect fit but was twitchy on steeper descents. The solution was to combine the two. Now I have a perfect fit and sure footed handling. No stock frame fits the bill.
> 
> Fit is not just about top tube length, stem length & bar reach/drop. Saddle height & setback are the first things that need setting. Only then can the reach and drop be considered.
> 
> Far too many riders approach selection of s frame from the wrong point in the process. Two frames can appear ostensibly the same but a fraction of a degree difference in STA makes a big difference in suitability.
> 
> But what do I know? I only do it for a living.


----------



## ultimobici

stevesbike said:


> That's BS about the STA - for one thing, if two frames are identical except for a < 1 degree STA, setting a saddle fore/aft identically in terms of setback relative to the BB will make the effective STA identical and will thus make the effective reach identical as well.
> 
> You seem to need to appeal to ad hominen factors to try to bolster your view, but there are a lot of people in the business who perpetuate myths about fit. Usually the arguments about the limitations of stock fit are of this type. The truth is, custom geometry is almost always about vanity and not anatomy.


ad hominem? Seriously? It wasn't directed at you at all, it was poking fun at myself. you are right to an extent regarding the STA. But only if there is the option to move the saddle to the right position relative to the BB. 

I'm 5'9 with a long trunk and long thighs for my leg length. I can go for a frame a size up and use a short stem but that very often will give me an overly long head tube. Or I can get a frame made to work both for fit and handling balance. A stock 545mm top tube De Rosa has a 74+ degree STA the next size up is too long and requires a 100mm stem. That results in an overly twitchy front end for my liking. Instead I was on a 110 which was fine. But If I wanted to replace the saddle I was stuffed unless I could find one with an over wrapped rail. 

I had two frames that were almost right, one fitted perfectly but wasn't ideal in the road, the other was the opposite. I didn't want to start dicking around with different bars & stems to accommodate a 2001 frame I picked up off a mate for £300. 

I sell bike for a living, and it's true that the majority of riders are fine with stock frames, especially if they are new to the sport and haven't developed particular preferences with regard to parts. But there is a significant proportion of riders who know what they like or want and are prepared to seek it out. Should we just tell them to put up with stock? Or do we accommodate them?

Some people are perfectly happy and well served with an off the peg suit from the high street. Some people want a semi bespoke suit where the tailor has hemmed the trousers & jacket sleeves to their body. Finally there are some who appreciate or actually need a full bespoke suit from Saville Row. Bikes are no different, in my opinion. 

Each to their own.


----------



## tvad

ultimobici said:


> Some people are perfectly happy and well served with an off the peg suit from the high street. Some people want a semi bespoke suit where the tailor has hemmed the trousers & jacket sleeves to their body. Finally there are some who appreciate or actually need a full bespoke suit from Saville Row. Bikes are no different, in my opinion.


Good point. Well said. _Need_ and _want_ are often two different things.


----------



## Bill2

ultimobici said:


> ad hominem? Seriously? It wasn't directed at you at all, it was poking fun at myself. you are right to an extent regarding the STA. But only if there is the option to move the saddle to the right position relative to the BB.
> 
> I'm 5'9 with a long trunk and long thighs for my leg length. I can go for a frame a size up and use a short stem but that very often will give me an overly long head tube. Or I can get a frame made to work both for fit and handling balance. A stock 545mm top tube De Rosa has a 74+ degree STA the next size up is too long and requires a 100mm stem. That results in an overly twitchy front end for my liking. Instead I was on a 110 which was fine. But If I wanted to replace the saddle I was stuffed unless I could find one with an over wrapped rail.
> 
> I had two frames that were almost right, one fitted perfectly but wasn't ideal in the road, the other was the opposite. I didn't want to start dicking around with different bars & stems to accommodate a 2001 frame I picked up off a mate for £300.
> 
> I sell bike for a living, and it's true that the majority of riders are fine with stock frames, especially if they are new to the sport and haven't developed particular preferences with regard to parts. But there is a significant proportion of riders who know what they like or want and are prepared to seek it out. Should we just tell them to put up with stock? Or do we accommodate them?
> 
> Some people are perfectly happy and well served with an off the peg suit from the high street. Some people want a semi bespoke suit where the tailor has hemmed the trousers & jacket sleeves to their body. Finally there are some who appreciate or actually need a full bespoke suit from Saville Row. Bikes are no different, in my opinion.
> 
> Each to their own.


Agreed. Example, I needed a replacement bike and happened to see one on Italian Ebay: used custom 2011 Viner Maxima RS (back when Bertoletti was building them for Viner). I wrote to the shop selling it and the measurements were curiously close to my previous bike. It had an integrated seat post so I was certain I'd have to trim that. The price was a third or a quarter of new price (depending on spec) so I crossed my fingers and bought it. Fits me perfect, even the ISP (I did buy a 10 cm shorter stem). Blind luck but it worked. Going on 3 years later and it's still my main ride.


----------



## mambo

stevesbike said:


> The truth is, custom geometry is almost always about vanity and not anatomy.


I have to disagree. The majority of riders I see have to raise their handlebars using spacers or have to ride overly short or long stems to "fit" their bike. It should be the other way around. Having said this, a lot of riders have been sold the wrong size frame too!


----------



## mambo

ultimobici said:


> Think you're falling for the marketing bs mate. Tommy rides what he's paid to ride, plain & simple.


Agreed!


----------



## kurti_sc

wow. what a long thread for discussing italian and asian frames. I went through this recently and settled on a Sarto. I got a squadra corsa last year. cutting through all of the marketing bs, posting bs, uh what the pro riders prefer / ride bs, etc. This bike is the best i've ever ridden and i'm 100% satisfied. no bs. well, the internal cable stops could be better, but gosh, that's about all i can complain about.


----------



## aclinjury

Old thread, usual point of views presented, but always interesting rehash.

A highend off the shelf frame from one of the big makes is what?.. $5000-$6000? A very very nice custom frame costs about as much, and many custom builders can still build a custom frame, especially steel, for much lower, easily. So if anything, buying from the big manufacturers is akin to getting raped.

this argument: 

.."big manufacturers spend a lot of time and money in R&D to bring you such light and stiff, and therefore, it's only reasonable that they extort your wallet"..

..doesn't fly IMO. Reason is simple, a Hong Fu or Deng Fu knockoff can give you pretty much everything... 99% of whatever Specialized, Cdale, Cervelo, Pinarello,.. can produce... at a fraction of the price. The real question is... why are you NOT buying a HongFu or DengFu instead of an S-works or Evo or Dogma?? Surely whatever technology that Specialized or Cdale or Pina or Giant used in their patented expoxy extrusion technique... cannot be what makes you a winner or loser on the race course. Now if you're producing 6 W/kg and losing by a hair to your opponent on the battlefields, then maybe we can start to discuss weight:stiffness ratio in a frame. If you're producing anything less than 4.5 W/kg (and I'll bet most RBR folks don't even come close to 4.5 for an hour) and still getting whooped on a climb... then you need to work on the engine, or accept that your genetic is only allowing you to go that far. An upgrade in frame stiffness will guarantee you a few seconds max, not a game changer for you eh.

I will wait for the day when anyone can point to me an example, any example, where frame weight/stiffness ratio is the important determinant factor in a race. And nevermind that most folks don't even race, so the notion of having the lightest/stiffest frame is even less important... unless you're looking to savor the satisfactory moment of beating your pals on a Saturday club ride??

If prices are equal, I will take a custom frame anyday. There is nothing that soothes the eyes more than a perfectly proportioned frame. The stem is at the correct aesthetic length compared to the rest of the frame. Ever see a guy riding a too small frame and having to use a loadshiat of stem or seatpost? Or ever see a guy riding too large a frame and having to use a stubby stem and seatpost? For some people aesthetics play an important when buying a frame of such high cost, especially if the cost is not even higher than an off-the-shelf Chinese/Taiwanese mass produced.

Another area that mass produced frames cannot match, no question about it, is in the painting. Plenty of highend frame with sloppy "wavy paint" eh. There are folks complaining about this. I once saw an SL3 Sworks frame, in a special yellow edition no less, with so many mini/small lumps on the toptube.. that I dare not comment on it for fearing that it would hurt its proud owner. On the other hand, my Serotta with its *perfect* white pearlescent paint... well let's just say i dare anyone to find a smoother and more consistent paint job in white pearlescent from Asia. (White is not easy to paint due to the amount of layers required, and more layered means more chances of leaving an unsmooth surface). If you're the sort of people who appreciate such details, who appreciates a custom tailored suit.. then you'd appreciate a custom.

If you're the type that just want a utility racecraft, then I'm sorry you should'nt be buying a $6000 frame from Spesh, Cdale, Cervelo, Pina, etc.. you should be buying a Hongfu and Dengfu... and work on your engine... for I can guarantee you that there is nothing more satisfying than holding 4.3 W/kg on a long 1.5hr climb passing the kiddies on their latest super-uber-dazzling superbikes.. on your "soft and flexy" custom bike. Get back with me when you're 200lb and can hold 5.0 w/kg on the same climb, then we'll talk about stiffness/weight ratio, maybe.


----------



## ultimobici

aclinjury said:


> Old thread, usual point of views presented, but always interesting rehash.
> 
> A highend off the shelf frame from one of the big makes is what?.. $5000-$6000? A very very nice custom frame costs about as much, and many custom builders can still build a custom frame, especially steel, for much lower, easily. So if anything, buying from the big manufacturers is akin to getting raped.


Is this necessary? Mugged would be a far better and more accurate term than raped, surely?


----------



## paredown

Good thread to read while I enjoyed my morning coffee.

My question--in part because of our personal situation after the Great Recession--How did the escalation of prices get so out of control?

I'll assume that the manufacturer>Distributor>retail shop chain explains some--everyone wants to make a good living out of the product. Add to that the prosaic fact of the cost of shipping--no small thing these days. Pay the insurance and lawyers too--everything from warranty claims to product failure needs to be covered. Higher engineering costs (as mentioned above) as we leave the model of the artisan brazing some tubes until it looks right, to full-on CAD labs with materials science geeks debating how to achieve certain design targets.

But still--I am still staggered by the prices of new frames--artisinal or factory. 

Some of it has to be the luxury brand effect--perceived value to the 1 percenters goes up as the price skyrockets...

I'm starting to feel like my old French history professor who used to research often in France, but whose unrealized dream was to have a meal in a Michelin 5 star restaurant.


----------



## ultimobici

No doubt there is an element of what the market will stand, more so in the mass produced sector. 

That said, it is interesting to compare the price of a bespoke frame to average earnings. 

Carbon is difficult to compare to the "good old days" as there isn't an equivalent to Sarto 20 years ago. Steel is easier though. 

A top quality frame in 93 would have set you back £500. That equates to just under 9 day's wages. A similar frame 20 years later would be £900. Today's frame would take just as long to pay for. 

The thing that many people don't take into account is the comparison is unfair. That top frame in 1993 was lugged steel with a steel fork and threaded headset. The current frame is tigged with a carbon fork and ahead setup. Consequently it's lighter and stiffer. Carbon from 20 years ago was not that light, not particularly stiff and rode like crap. Kestrel EMS frames were horribly pricey and horrid to ride.


----------



## Notvintage

stevesbike said:


> Colnagos are made in Taiwan, not China, as are Wilier, Pinarello, etc.


LOL. . This is seriously splitting hairs. They both employ the same "cost cutting" tactics.


----------



## Notvintage

ultimobici said:


> But what do I know? I only do it for a living.


Exactly. haha


----------



## stevesbike

there are so many economic fallacies in this reply that it's hard to know where to start.... First off, economic activity - at least for the last 150 years of so - has been viewed as satisfying wants, not needs. No one needs a fancy bike - in fact, no one needs a bike at all. Differences in frames satisfy subjective preferences - the irony is that you condemn want-based preferences in the first paragraph and then embrace them in the third with the aesthetic dimension of custom frames (which satisfies no "objective" criteria).

Then you use some anecdotal claims about custom painting - you should look at all the threads about the Guru proton and the problems with Q/C. 

Fact is, carbon frames benefit more from engineering than craftsmanship. A top end production frame is the result of far more engineering R&D than a Dengfu. They are a pleasure to ride - they are like a good sports car. No one "needs" one but they are nice to drive....



aclinjury said:


> Old thread, usual point of views presented, but always interesting rehash.
> 
> A highend off the shelf frame from one of the big makes is what?.. $5000-$6000? A very very nice custom frame costs about as much, and many custom builders can still build a custom frame, especially steel, for much lower, easily. So if anything, buying from the big manufacturers is akin to getting raped.
> 
> this argument:
> 
> .."big manufacturers spend a lot of time and money in R&D to bring you such light and stiff, and therefore, it's only reasonable that they extort your wallet"..
> 
> ..doesn't fly IMO. Reason is simple, a Hong Fu or Deng Fu knockoff can give you pretty much everything... 99% of whatever Specialized, Cdale, Cervelo, Pinarello,.. can produce... at a fraction of the price. The real question is... why are you NOT buying a HongFu or DengFu instead of an S-works or Evo or Dogma?? Surely whatever technology that Specialized or Cdale or Pina or Giant used in their patented expoxy extrusion technique... cannot be what makes you a winner or loser on the race course. Now if you're producing 6 W/kg and losing by a hair to your opponent on the battlefields, then maybe we can start to discuss weight:stiffness ratio in a frame. If you're producing anything less than 4.5 W/kg (and I'll bet most RBR folks don't even come close to 4.5 for an hour) and still getting whooped on a climb... then you need to work on the engine, or accept that your genetic is only allowing you to go that far. An upgrade in frame stiffness will guarantee you a few seconds max, not a game changer for you eh.
> 
> I will wait for the day when anyone can point to me an example, any example, where frame weight/stiffness ratio is the important determinant factor in a race. And nevermind that most folks don't even race, so the notion of having the lightest/stiffest frame is even less important... unless you're looking to savor the satisfactory moment of beating your pals on a Saturday club ride??
> 
> If prices are equal, I will take a custom frame anyday. There is nothing that soothes the eyes more than a perfectly proportioned frame. The stem is at the correct aesthetic length compared to the rest of the frame. Ever see a guy riding a too small frame and having to use a loadshiat of stem or seatpost? Or ever see a guy riding too large a frame and having to use a stubby stem and seatpost? For some people aesthetics play an important when buying a frame of such high cost, especially if the cost is not even higher than an off-the-shelf Chinese/Taiwanese mass produced.
> 
> Another area that mass produced frames cannot match, no question about it, is in the painting. Plenty of highend frame with sloppy "wavy paint" eh. There are folks complaining about this. I once saw an SL3 Sworks frame, in a special yellow edition no less, with so many mini/small lumps on the toptube.. that I dare not comment on it for fearing that it would hurt its proud owner. On the other hand, my Serotta with its *perfect* white pearlescent paint... well let's just say i dare anyone to find a smoother and more consistent paint job in white pearlescent from Asia. (White is not easy to paint due to the amount of layers required, and more layered means more chances of leaving an unsmooth surface). If you're the sort of people who appreciate such details, who appreciates a custom tailored suit.. then you'd appreciate a custom.
> 
> If you're the type that just want a utility racecraft, then I'm sorry you should'nt be buying a $6000 frame from Spesh, Cdale, Cervelo, Pina, etc.. you should be buying a Hongfu and Dengfu... and work on your engine... for I can guarantee you that there is nothing more satisfying than holding 4.3 W/kg on a long 1.5hr climb passing the kiddies on their latest super-uber-dazzling superbikes.. on your "soft and flexy" custom bike. Get back with me when you're 200lb and can hold 5.0 w/kg on the same climb, then we'll talk about stiffness/weight ratio, maybe.


----------



## aclinjury

stevesbike said:


> there are so many economic fallacies in this reply that it's hard to know where to start.... First off, economic activity - at least for the last 150 years of so - has been viewed as satisfying wants, not needs. No one needs a fancy bike - in fact, no one needs a bike at all. Differences in frames satisfy subjective preferences - the irony is that you condemn want-based preferences in the first paragraph and then embrace them in the third with the aesthetic dimension of custom frames (which satisfies no "objective" criteria).
> 
> Then you use some anecdotal claims about custom painting - you should look at all the threads about the Guru proton and the problems with Q/C.
> 
> Fact is, carbon frames benefit more from engineering than craftsmanship. A top end production frame is the result of far more engineering R&D than a Dengfu. They are a pleasure to ride - they are like a good sports car. No one "needs" one but they are nice to drive....


nah. I know you like to talk up the engineering bits, i know, you like to go into the benefits of saving a 100g and while increasing stiffness, etc.. all factors mostly measured in a laboratory. Reading a lot of your posts, one can almost surmise that wheter a racer wins/loses is predicated on what frame he's riding that would enable him some technological advantage over his opponent's frame. Out in the real world, 95% of what entails in riding/racing a bicycle is in the human, not the technology. Whatever, the best Cdale, Spesh, Cervelo can make, it is very UNLIKELY that it is their technology that will make the difference on the battlefield. 95% of that will come from the human heart, lungs, and skills, eh. 

If I'm going to pay big money, then I want custom, especially when a custom can be had for just about the same price range. There are those that want qualities like a nice paint job, a perfectly proportions stems and seatpost. In other words, my priority in a highend frame is quality first, and that includes aesthetic quality. The idea of fitting any person into a frame by using whatever length stems and seatposts necessary.. makes a bike like a circus bike at times. And I will not forgo a nice paint job in exchange for a lighter/stiffer bike, because 95% of what makes me a good/badass rider is me, not the frame.

I know you tend to espouse a lot in R&D from the bigs, emphasing the R&D so much so that one would think that it's the main determining factor on the battlefield. I will not dispute with the laboratory "stiffness" number and weight number, but.. riding a bicyle is more than just looking at stiffness/weight ratio of a frame my friend. If you race, then it requires heart and rigor training, and if you ride fast descent, then it require great skills that I have no doubt steel is best here (handling is something cannot be measure in a lab). If carbon is the magic material that enable great handling, then you can get motoGP bikes would incorporating carbon fiber into their frames a looong time ago, eh.

But ok, I can be a technology guy too, so I'll play that game now. People who emphasize the greatness of carbon fiber like to emphasize that carbon fiber can be tuned to the n-th degree compared to steel, ok fair enough. But this is in theory. And in fact, it is also exactly this high degree of n-th degree that makes finding the optimal *combinatoric* amount of layers and layer types, *and* then to arrange them in an optimal permutation (and here I'm also referring to angles of the fiber). With such large number of choices, it makes finding that theoretical optimun quite elusive, probably requiring computational power of NASA or one of the few supercomputing center in the world, not a bike manufacturer. And then you would still need to spend money on the mold to try out whatever layup schedule in the real world (hey you can't just trust computer simulation, can you). There is NO WAY in hell any bicycle manufactuer will have this sort of computer power, brain power, to go about finding that perfect combination in a pool of n-th degree samples. But they don't need to eh! Because "close enough" optimum is all they need, and now use their marketing department to sell it to the mass that they, bike company A, has now found a better optimum than the rest. You buy into this easily.

For an average RBR bicycle buyer, it's ridiculous that they should be marginalizing stiffness/weight ratio. I was once such person, but no more. In fact, I remember you telling me about the Velocite, and I did look into buying that. But after a long hard analysis from this weekend warrior, I've decided that I want true quality, rather than just chasing the latest marketing hype. Now if I see a matted naked carbon from a racer, I sort of roll my eyes. I say, "oh cool black matte, guy must be into counting grams". Good for him, if it makes him happy.  But you know what, I'm 117 lbs and I have zero issue enjoying my flexy ti/carbon Serotta Ottrott on a long 20 mile climb, passing all sort of superduper bikes. And if a person is able to grab my wheel and ride alongside for even a brief moment, the FIRST thing I often hear is "nice bike!", I get this a lot from the 30something crowds riding the latest superbikes with electronic shiftings. There is something about white pearlescent paint that changes hue ever so slightly at different viewing angles, that catchs the eyes. And when I take my steel Cinelli XCR out on a club, it's indeed a treat for the guys, some of them are just waiting for me to bring it on the weekend. It's funny but in our clubs everyone has a highend carbon bike with highest of end carbon wheels (we're a club with lots of engineers, dentists, doctors,), and I hardly hardly see anyone even giving an eyebat on each other's carbon bikes. But I bring my Ottrott or Cinelli Xcr, the guys come over immediately. There is more to bicycling than just stiffness/weight ratio.

Anyway.......! I know I didn't persuade you of anything... I was more just talking out loud. To each his own, is the world.

(ps: get back with me when Spesh, Cdale, Cervelo, Velocite, etc... can actually do a paint job with zero paint bleeding and no ripples, and without resorting to using cheap decal stickers. Can these guys even paint real graphics without resorting to decals?)


----------



## stevesbike

You kind of missed the point: stiffness/weight and other properties of high-end stock frames are basically the same as the aesthetic preferences you have for a custom bike. It's no more "ridiculous" to care about stiffness/weight than it is to care about a nice paint job. They are subjective preferences.

The point about combinatorics isn't valid. Certainly a bike that has gone through extensive R&D process (like the big companies do increasingly with collaborative partners like BMW and Ferrari that have extensive R&D resources) is more optimized than one that hasn't. And while a nice paint job doesn't translate into subjective riding impressions, a high end, R&D-intensive design does. It's day and night between riding a top-end frame at the extremes - like a fast, technical descent or the last lap of a crit - than a cheap "generic" frame. 

Decals are used for the simple reason that they are lighter- when you are squeezing every gram out of a frame, the last thing you want to do is put 100 grams of paint on it. Besides, I'm not sure where you've been looking - even a 2011 Jamis Xenith SL I have has a very nice, complex paint scheme. 



aclinjury said:


> nah. I know you like to talk up the engineering bits, i know, you like to go into the benefits of saving a 100g and while increasing stiffness, etc.. all factors mostly measured in a laboratory. Reading a lot of your posts, one can almost surmise that wheter a racer wins/loses is predicated on what frame he's riding that would enable him some technological advantage over his opponent's frame. Out in the real world, 95% of what entails in riding/racing a bicycle is in the human, not the technology. Whatever, the best Cdale, Spesh, Cervelo can make, it is very UNLIKELY that it is their technology that will make the difference on the battlefield. 95% of that will come from the human heart, lungs, and skills, eh.
> 
> If I'm going to pay big money, then I want custom, especially when a custom can be had for just about the same price range. There are those that want qualities like a nice paint job, a perfectly proportions stems and seatpost. In other words, my priority in a highend frame is quality first, and that includes aesthetic quality. The idea of fitting any person into a frame by using whatever length stems and seatposts necessary.. makes a bike like a circus bike at times. And I will not forgo a nice paint job in exchange for a lighter/stiffer bike, because 95% of what makes me a good/badass rider is me, not the frame.
> 
> I know you tend to espouse a lot in R&D from the bigs, emphasing the R&D so much so that one would think that it's the main determining factor on the battlefield. I will not dispute with the laboratory "stiffness" number and weight number, but.. riding a bicyle is more than just looking at stiffness/weight ratio of a frame my friend. If you race, then it requires heart and rigor training, and if you ride fast descent, then it require great skills that I have no doubt steel is best here (handling is something cannot be measure in a lab). If carbon is the magic material that enable great handling, then you can get motoGP bikes would incorporating carbon fiber into their frames a looong time ago, eh.
> 
> But ok, I can be a technology guy too, so I'll play that game now. People who emphasize the greatness of carbon fiber like to emphasize that carbon fiber can be tuned to the n-th degree compared to steel, ok fair enough. But this is in theory. And in fact, it is also exactly this high degree of n-th degree that makes finding the optimal *combinatoric* amount of layers and layer types, *and* then to arrange them in an optimal permutation (and here I'm also referring to angles of the fiber). With such large number of choices, it makes finding that theoretical optimun quite elusive, probably requiring computational power of NASA or one of the few supercomputing center in the world, not a bike manufacturer. And then you would still need to spend money on the mold to try out whatever layup schedule in the real world (hey you can't just trust computer simulation, can you). There is NO WAY in hell any bicycle manufactuer will have this sort of computer power, brain power, to go about finding that perfect combination in a pool of n-th degree samples. But they don't need to eh! Because "close enough" optimum is all they need, and now use their marketing department to sell it to the mass that they, bike company A, has now found a better optimum than the rest. You buy into this easily.
> 
> For an average RBR bicycle buyer, it's ridiculous that they should be marginalizing stiffness/weight ratio. I was once such person, but no more. In fact, I remember you telling me about the Velocite, and I did look into buying that. But after a long hard analysis from this weekend warrior, I've decided that I want true quality, rather than just chasing the latest marketing hype. Now if I see a matted naked carbon from a racer, I sort of roll my eyes. I say, "oh cool black matte, guy must be into counting grams". Good for him, if it makes him happy. But you know what, I'm 117 lbs and I have zero issue enjoying my flexy ti/carbon Serotta Ottrott on a long 20 mile climb, passing all sort of superduper bikes. And if a person is able to grab my wheel and ride alongside for even a brief moment, the FIRST thing I often hear is "nice bike!", I get this a lot from the 30something crowds riding the latest superbikes with electronic shiftings. There is something about white pearlescent paint that changes hue ever so slightly at different viewing angles, that catchs the eyes. And when I take my steel Cinelli XCR out on a club, it's indeed a treat for the guys, some of them are just waiting for me to bring it on the weekend. It's funny but in our clubs everyone has a highend carbon bike with highest of end carbon wheels (we're a club with lots of engineers, dentists, doctors,), and I hardly hardly see anyone even giving an eyebat on each other's carbon bikes. But I bring my Ottrott or Cinelli Xcr, the guys come over immediately. There is more to bicycling than just stiffness/weight ratio.
> 
> Anyway.......! I know I didn't persuade you of anything... I was more just talking out loud. To each his own, is the world.
> 
> (ps: get back with me when Spesh, Cdale, Cervelo, Velocite, etc... can actually do a paint job with zero paint bleeding and no ripples, and without resorting to using cheap decal stickers. Can these guys even paint real graphics without resorting to decals?)


----------



## aclinjury

stevesbike said:


> You kind of missed the point: stiffness/weight and other properties of high-end stock frames are basically the same as the aesthetic preferences you have for a custom bike. It's no more "ridiculous" to care about stiffness/weight than it is to care about a nice paint job. They are subjective preferences.
> 
> The point about combinatorics isn't valid. Certainly a bike that has gone through extensive R&D process (like the big companies do increasingly with collaborative partners like BMW and Ferrari that have extensive R&D resources) is more optimized than one that hasn't. And while a nice paint job doesn't translate into subjective riding impressions, a high end, R&D-intensive design does. It's day and night between riding a top-end frame at the extremes - like a fast, technical descent or the last lap of a crit - than a cheap "generic" frame.
> 
> Decals are used for the simple reason that they are lighter- when you are squeezing every gram out of a frame, the last thing you want to do is put 100 grams of paint on it. Besides, I'm not sure where you've been looking - even a 2011 Jamis Xenith SL I have has a very nice, complex paint scheme.


You talk about about 100g saving, a lot about stiffness/weight ratio, in a frame, because you think that is all there is to racing. Fair enough. Let me ask you, can you point to multiple, real situations, where victory is won/lose by a frame? Let's look at the epitomy of bicycle racing, the Tour, Vuelta, Giro, World Road race,,.. is there one instance where you can make a clear argument a frame would make a difference in the results? I cannot come up with 1 clear cut example, nevermind finding multiple examples. Zero, zilch, nada,... at the epitomy of the sport.

Back to weekend warrior racing. Please don't tell me that Weekend Joe lost a weekend race beause of his frame. He lost because his opponents had more balls, more top end power, great at stealing and then position... all of which require the determination of a human being, not a frame.

And my point about combinatorics isn't valid? How is it not valid? Think about what you're saying. What is considered extensive for you? If there are 1 million data points in an N-pool, then a person who has sampled let's say 10 data points can make a vaguely vealed but not totally false claim that he has done "10x the R&D" as the guy who just did tried 1 sample. Maybe if N = 10, then he can claim he has exhausted ALL samples and there he can claim to have found the BEST sample. But in a pool of 1 , 10, 100+ million points, you can spend 100 years trying and claim you've done "extensive" research, and still not be making a dent in reducing the N pool of samples to try. BMW or Ferrari or McLaren are are putting into helping their bicycle partners? You know how much effort they're putting in? I also seem to recall Ferrari was putting in some significant effort in helping Ducati with their carbon swingarm, which ended to being ditch by Ducati because carbon wasn't just giving the rider the same feel as aluminum. Ferrari and Ducati couldn't seem to find the carbon fiber swingarm they were seeking. Do you conclude that Ducati and Ferrari lack experience and extensive effort? Please mah mang,... between those Ferrari and Ducati probably have put out more money and effort on their little brief swingarm experiment than the entire bicycle industry put into R&D for a year. Lababoratory experiments don't guarantee results on the track eh.

And btw, don't assume that more R&D and more trials always lead to more/better end products. Look at Formula1 and MotoGP. It's quite ususal to find next year's race craft to be not as good as last year's. But.. I reckon we will never going to hear Specialized or Cervelo admit to this... of course to these guys, each year is always better overall.. better stiffness, better comfort, better handling.. and this applies for every Weekend Joe. Amazing results, eh!

I will agree a chinese cheapo frame is cheap (chinese carbon fiber probably have fillers like fiberglass in them too), but I'll leave it at that. 

But... given a choice between a custom frame with good paint, excellent aesthetic, but rides softer (probably by design) than a pure racing frame from one of the big makes with bland boring and streaky and possibly lumpy paint job with decals (to save 20 grams??) probably by design... I will take the custom.

About the Jamis. Haven't looked at one. But looked at plenty of top bikes from Specialized, Cervelo, Cdale, Colgnago, Pinallelo, Giants... honestly I only consider top Colnagos (C59s, 60s) in the same league as a mid/high- end custom. The rest,.. well I don't want to use "junk".. but cheap decals come to mind. But if I compare a C60 to my Ottrott, the C60 looks underdressed in the aesthetic and detail department. I know, aesthetic doesn't count to you, but c'mon bro... c'mon now... Jamis, really


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## stevesbike

so, you're still missing my point: people choose stiffness/weight for the same reasons you choose a nice paint job - neither have to do with making some big objective performance basis (for the simple reason that most people who buy race bikes don't actually race). They get pleasure every time they lift their bike or accelerate on a hill. They get pleasure knowing they own something that is optimized along some dimensions. The same thing with almost all the people in the US who own a sports car - few of them ever race it and most enjoy it commuting to work.

Re frame design, why don't you come up with some NP-completeness result and mail it to Cervelo? Engineers don't care about sampling a small sub-space of all possible designs. They care about making their bike better than specific bikes within the market. Sure, sometimes they make mistakes - Cervelo did with the front end of the S5 and now have iterated the design to improve it with their new version. 

It's ridiculous to call top end frames from the big manufacturers "junk." They may not be to your liking, but they are excellent performers. Even a mid-range frame today is superior to the best frame a decade ago...



aclinjury said:


> You talk about about 100g saving, a lot about stiffness/weight ratio, in a frame, because you think that is all there is to racing. Fair enough. Let me ask you, can you point to multiple, real situations, where victory is won/lose by a frame? Let's look at the epitomy of bicycle racing, the Tour, Vuelta, Giro, World Road race,,.. is there one instance where you can make a clear argument a frame would make a difference in the results? I cannot come up with 1 clear cut example, nevermind finding multiple examples. Zero, zilch, nada,... at the epitomy of the sport.
> 
> Back to weekend warrior racing. Please don't tell me that Weekend Joe lost a weekend race beause of his frame. He lost because his opponents had more balls, more top end power, great at stealing and then position... all of which require the determination of a human being, not a frame.
> 
> And my point about combinatorics isn't valid? How is it not valid? Think about what you're saying. What is considered extensive for you? If there are 1 million data points in an N-pool, then a person who has sampled let's say 10 data points can make a vaguely vealed but not totally false claim that he has done "10x the R&D" as the guy who just did tried 1 sample. Maybe if N = 10, then he can claim he has exhausted ALL samples and there he can claim to have found the BEST sample. But in a pool of 1 , 10, 100+ million points, you can spend 100 years trying and claim you've done "extensive" research, and still not be making a dent in reducing the N pool of samples to try. BMW or Ferrari or McLaren are are putting into helping their bicycle partners? You know how much effort they're putting in? I also seem to recall Ferrari was putting in some significant effort in helping Ducati with their carbon swingarm, which ended to being ditch by Ducati because carbon wasn't just giving the rider the same feel as aluminum. Ferrari and Ducati couldn't seem to find the carbon fiber swingarm they were seeking. Do you conclude that Ducati and Ferrari lack experience and extensive effort? Please mah mang,... between those Ferrari and Ducati probably have put out more money and effort on their little brief swingarm experiment than the entire bicycle industry put into R&D for a year. Lababoratory experiments don't guarantee results on the track eh.
> 
> And btw, don't assume that more R&D and more trials always lead to more/better end products. Look at Formula1 and MotoGP. It's quite ususal to find next year's race craft to be not as good as last year's. But.. I reckon we will never going to hear Specialized or Cervelo admit to this... of course to these guys, each year is always better overall.. better stiffness, better comfort, better handling.. and this applies for every Weekend Joe. Amazing results, eh!
> 
> I will agree a chinese cheapo frame is cheap (chinese carbon fiber probably have fillers like fiberglass in them too), but I'll leave it at that.
> 
> But... given a choice between a custom frame with good paint, excellent aesthetic, but rides softer (probably by design) than a pure racing frame from one of the big makes with bland boring and streaky and possibly lumpy paint job with decals (to save 20 grams??) probably by design... I will take the custom.
> 
> About the Jamis. Haven't looked at one. But looked at plenty of top bikes from Specialized, Cervelo, Cdale, Colgnago, Pinallelo, Giants... honestly I only consider top Colnagos (C59s, 60s) in the same league as a mid/high- end custom. The rest,.. well I don't want to use "junk".. but cheap decals come to mind. But if I compare a C60 to my Ottrott, the C60 looks underdressed in the aesthetic and detail department. I know, aesthetic doesn't count to you, but c'mon bro... c'mon now... Jamis, really


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