# Boonen and Disc Brakes



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

All of the headlines read,

Tom Boonen says disc brakes "the biggest improvement I've seen in my career"


Sorry Tom, I'm calling bullshit.










Out of all of the things that have changed, all of the improvements, disc brakes are the biggest improvement?

So that clothing, that skinsuit you're wearing now isn't a bigger improvement? It sure saves you much, much more time, it's always working for you. Your helmet and such too. Not the carbon advancements with weight and aerodynamics? Aero isn't everything? And you don't really care for that Di2 you're using now? Not really anything big over what's in the picture above right? Sprint shifters... pft, those are nothing, right?

Sorry Tom, I call bullshit.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> Not the carbon advancements


His only Green Jersey win was on a steel bike. So I'll believe he doesn't see carbon as being a big improvement.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Retirement bonus coming his way.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Have any of those other improvements you mentioned been such a huge leap in performance? Especially in the wet, disc braking performance is miles above carbon rim braking. No more having to worry about how long to pre-load the brakes to dry them off. No more completely non-linear brake modulation. The ability to dive deep into a corner and know you can hit the brakes in the sweet spot hard enough to slow down but not quite enough to lock them up. 

I bet when they switched from aluminum wheels to carbon wheels, the braking performance dropped dramatically, so having this huge swing in performance the other direction feels incredible. 

Aluminum bikes can still be just as light as carbon, so how is that a big change? Electronic drivetrains don't really affect the riders as much as they do the mechanics. The clothing fits basically the same as the early picture. Aero bikes aren't a super noticeable difference I'm sure. But slamming on the brakes and stopping when you want to stop is 100% noticeable. 


But I forgot, you're on this forum to tell us all that manufacture marketing runs the entire peleton and nobody says anything or uses any equipment without their sponsors telling them to. And all the engineering that goes into the bikes and apparel is BS and we should all be riding steel bikes made of round tubes with 30 year old cable drivetrains. Carry on, I'll know better next time.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

People can feel how they want to, but eventually most pros are going to ride them. Some of them will really like them, others will not. We are not pros, so we get to choose for *ourselves*, but we don't get to force others to see it our way. That's life....

Oh, and why are there two threads for this topic????


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I think this thread is for the haters, and the other one is more informative?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

dcorn said:


> Have any of those other improvements you mentioned been such a huge leap in performance? Especially in the wet, disc braking performance is miles above carbon rim braking. No more having to worry about how long to pre-load the brakes to dry them off. No more completely non-linear brake modulation. The ability to dive deep into a corner and know you can hit the brakes in the sweet spot hard enough to slow down but not quite enough to lock them up.
> 
> I bet when they switched from aluminum wheels to carbon wheels, the braking performance dropped dramatically, so having this huge swing in performance the other direction feels incredible.
> 
> ...


Have they been a leap in performance?

Well if we trust Specialized, having modern aero stuff will save you 5 minutes every 25 miles. That's about 30 mintues on a typical stage.

You're going to argue that being able to brake better when it's wet out will save more time than 5 minutes every single 25 miles?

So you bet that when they switched to carbon wheels they all got much slower, that's what you're saying right? Anything to back that up? And now that they're much slower, going to discs will make as fast as they were before and then again even faster, right?

Carbon bikes are much stiffer than aluminum bikes. Are you saying that a frames stiffness doesn't matter in competition? 

And again you're arguing that sprint shifters make no improvement during sprints? Really? Have you listened to any actual sprinters at all talk about them? So they do nothing and it only benefits the mechanics to have them?

And you're really saying that the clothing back then fits basically the same as a modern aerodynamic speed suit? Really? Care to take that up with the engineers from Castelli or Endura or Assos or Specialized?

And now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said any of that bullshit you're spewing. I think it's time for you to crawl back into your troll hole now.

Waiiiiiit. Are you now accusing me of saying that all of the engineering that goes into modern equipment is BS after you just argued the other point? Are you serious? I'm done with you, welcome to the ignore list, where you belong.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Have they been a leap in performance?
> 
> Well if we trust Specialized, having modern aero stuff will save you 5 minutes every 25 miles. That's about 30 mintues on a typical stage.
> 
> ...


Leap in performance. Leap. Big jump. Large difference. Of course all that stuff is important technology but comparing the performance of what came before it to the new stuff, I can see disc brakes being at the top of the list. And no, I don't have numbers because the manufacturers don't give us any 60-0 times to compare braking performance and I'm not prepped to do my own independent testing. 

I will say that I have Mavic Exalith wheels and high dollar TRP brakes on my road bike that should be one of the best performing braking setups you can get with rim brakes. And when I switch back from my cross bike with hydro discs, it feels like my brakes aren't even working. 

The Specialized claim of 5 mins over 40k is indeed marketing because the basis of their comparison wasn't a pro rider who already wears skin tight clothes with a 15.4 lb bike and fancy shoes/helmet. 

But hey, I guess you can't read this anyway because you took your ball and went home...


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> I think it's time for you to crawl back into your troll hole now.



Oh the irony, how many threads are you in whining about disc brakes now? 


And who says an improvement has to be measured in performance numbers?


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

MoPho said:


> Oh the irony, how many threads are you in whining about disc brakes now?


Sounds like he just hates the Venge ViAS all together, especially the disc model. Maybe he bought a Venge right before the ViAS came out?

(From Venge ViAS disc thread, although I think I was initially confusing MMsRepBike with Mile2424 or 11spd)



MMsRepBike said:


> Has it been 3 years or whatever yet?
> 
> Can we get a redesign on the Venge already please?
> 
> ...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Tom Boonen gets custom Specialized Tarmac for the classics | Cyclingnews.com

Boonen has ditched disc brakes.

No disc Venge.

No disc Tarmac.

No disc Roubaix.


He asked for a rim brake Tarmac to be made custom for him. 

That's right, he's racing rim brakes now that it matters.










The PR stunt is over, it has been, he's been on this bike for weeks now.

It was fun to try to sell stuff for the big S, but now it's time to try to win.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Good looking bike... discs or not.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

It's a nice looking bike.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't know why he's switched back to a Tarmac as he seemed intent on riding the Venge all the way through, but, did he _ASK _for rim brakes, or is it more to the point that the Tarmac only has post mounts and won't accommodate DA 9150 direct mount calipers and only has QR wheels instead of TA's?


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Carbon bikes are much stiffer than aluminum bikes. Are you saying that a frames stiffness doesn't matter in competition?


Um... at the risk of nitpicking... frame stiffness doesn't matter one bit. It's good ad copy for selling bikes, but a stiff frame is no faster than a "whippy" frame. Science.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Tom Boonen gets custom Specialized Tarmac for the classics | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Boonen has ditched disc brakes.
> 
> ...


I still dig the color scheme. Very classy.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

JohnStonebarger said:


> Um... at the risk of nitpicking... frame stiffness doesn't matter one bit. It's good ad copy for selling bikes, but a stiff frame is no faster than a "whippy" frame. Science.


Oh No, ya hadda go and say it, dint ya.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

velodog said:


> Oh No, ya hadda go and say it, dint ya.


I'm often unpopular. It's only once in a while I get to be correct, too.


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## fiziks (Jul 22, 2016)

JohnStonebarger said:


> Um... at the risk of nitpicking... frame stiffness doesn't matter one bit. It's good ad copy for selling bikes, but a stiff frame is no faster than a "whippy" frame. Science.


I really don't have the experience to say one way or another about stiffness of aluminum vs carbon fiber, but if I give you a bike with a frame with tubes and stays made out of garden hose, would you race me on my aluminum frame bike?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

fiziks said:


> I really don't have the experience to say one way or another about stiffness of aluminum vs carbon fiber, but if I give you a bike with a frame with tubes and stays made out of garden hose, would you race me on my aluminum frame bike?


First you need to build a bicycle, that will support itself and a rider, out of garden hose.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Tom Boonen gets custom Specialized Tarmac for the classics | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Boonen has ditched disc brakes.
> 
> ...


You're being hysterical. now you're putting words in his mouth, thoughts in his head. Silly conjecture here

for all we know he just needs a bike that will be usable for whenever the UCI has their ban on/off over various events.

also could be pressure from the Riders Association for all we know

though it makes very good sense to use the rim brakes / QR if the neutral support (and heck the team support) is not equal when using discs!

(fwiw, I like discs, but use rim brakes myself. not even sure I would spend money to change to discs if I was still racing)


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

TmB123 said:


> I don't know why he's switched back to a Tarmac as he seemed intent on riding the Venge all the way through, but, did he _ASK _for rim brakes, or is it more to the point that the Tarmac only has post mounts and won't accommodate DA 9150 direct mount calipers and only has QR wheels instead of TA's?


If it was only the Tarmac that he was using rim brakes for that would make sense but he is also riding a rim brake roubaix which still hasn't been released to the public. In a way the best part of all this is that they will have to release a rim version of the new roubaix for consumers.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

BCSaltchucker said:


> You're being hysterical. now you're putting words in his mouth, thoughts in his head. Silly conjecture here
> 
> for all we know he just needs a bike that will be usable for whenever the UCI has their ban on/off over various events.
> 
> ...


He was riding disc brakes and said he was going to finish his career on disk brakes but he has gone back to rim brakes to truly finish his career. For whatever reason he decided that disc brakes was the wrong idea, no conjecture, just reality.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

taodemon said:


> If it was only the Tarmac that he was using rim brakes for that would make sense but he is also riding a rim brake roubaix which still hasn't been released to the public. In a way the best part of all this is that they will have to release a rim version of the new roubaix for consumers.


i read somewhere that it was due to the availability of neutral service and likelihood of punctures out on the cobbles that was the main reason, still a work in progress...


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

His bike at Flanders. 

Boonen races new front-suspension Specialized Roubaix at Flanders | Cyclingnews.com


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Suspension?! Solution looking for a problem! And the spring is dangerous, someone could poke an eye out! 



.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> His bike at Flanders.
> 
> Boonen races new front-suspension Specialized Roubaix at Flanders | Cyclingnews.com


In hindsight, that was a little odd choice for a guy who doesn't use gloves. One would think that if you want a bit more cushy, then put some gloves on.

Not sure what the hell Boonen was thinking when he wanted to experiment with disc and suspension in his last year? Usually, last-year guys tend to just stay with what they have.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

MoPho said:


> Suspension?! Solution looking for a problem! And the spring is dangerous, someone could poke an eye out!
> .


Yea, but at least they don't need to be worrying about their feet any more.

Fizik introduces the world?s first disc brake-proof cycling shoes | Cycling Today


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

velodog said:


> Yea, but at least they don't need to be worrying about their feet any more.
> 
> Fizik introduces the world?s first disc brake-proof cycling shoes | Cycling Today


That's a good start but I think you need the matching gloves too

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Mesh-Hand-Glove/dp/B000NNT2GC

With these two items I think you prevent the roadways from becoming littered with severed appendages due to discs


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

velodog said:


> He was riding disc brakes and said he was going to finish his career on disk brakes but he has gone back to rim brakes to truly finish his career. For whatever reason he decided that disc brakes was the wrong idea, no conjecture, just reality.


I imagine it also might be he didn't want the end of his career marred by another dumbass in the peleton falling into his bike and claiming he was cut by the disc rotor.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

CPA expresses optimism about disc brake covers | Cyclingnews.com


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

That is rediculous - a solution to a problem that didn't exist.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

TmB123 said:


> That is rediculous - a solution to a problem that didn't exist.


It's not about finding a solution to a problem. It's about taking something good and making it better and if you're trying to make braking better, disc brakes are an answer. I have what amounts to mid-level disc brakes on my fat bike and every time I get on that bike, I'm blown away by the control and power they offer and that's on a bike that weighs twice as much as my road bikes, stopping wheels that are probably 3 times as heavy and in conditions that offer little to no grip, at least compared to tarmac. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that disc brakes are a saving grace.... there are definitely issues to work and solve as far as road bikes go, but they definitely stop better.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

the part that I find to be most confusing is that the riders want to argue that disc brakes are dangerous, but seem to be perfectly fine with racing on courses that poorly planned and marked out... Yes again, today in Tour of the Basque Country, 7 or 8 riders taken out by random cones in the middle the road way.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

TricrossRich said:


> It's not about finding a solution to a problem. It's about taking something good and making it better and if you're trying to make braking better, disc brakes are an answer. I have what amounts to mid-level disc brakes on my fat bike and every time I get on that bike, I'm blown away by the control and power they offer and that's on a bike that weighs twice as much as my road bikes, stopping wheels that are probably 3 times as heavy and in conditions that offer little to no grip, at least compared to tarmac. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that disc brakes are a saving grace.... there are definitely issues to work and solve as far as road bikes go, but they definitely stop better.


You misunderstood me - I agree, discs are awesome to use, what I meant is that I don't believe a rediculous cover (the article linked in the comment above my reply) is required to protect people from something that I don't believe is an issue - being injured by a disc.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

TmB123 said:


> You misunderstood me - I agree, discs are awesome to use, what I meant is that I don't believe a rediculous cover (the article linked in the comment above my reply) is required to protect people from something that I don't believe is an issue - being injured by a disc.


Ahhh... gotcha.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

TricrossRich said:


> Ahhh... gotcha.


And you are right, there are a heap of other safety issues that ARE causing injuries that need to be resolved that the CPA seem quite happy to let slide. Why they have chosen to draw a line in the sand with disc rotors I don't know.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Sinyard may well be right...

Specialized founder says in two years everyone will be on disc-equipped bikes | Cyclingnews.com


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Not only that but Specialized plans to sue anyone not using discs


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

DaveG said:


> Specialized plans to sue everyone.


hahaha! Fixed it for you.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PBL450 said:


> Sinyard may well be right...
> 
> Specialized founder says in two years everyone will be on disc-equipped bikes | Cyclingnews.com


Fck Sinyard and Fck Specialized.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't know that I can buy the "everybody" part, but what I think he is trying to say is that the vast majority of bike manufacturers will likely be exclusively producing disc brake road bikes by that time. I think that could be correct if you bump the timeframe out to five years. We'll see though.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

daveg said:


> not only that but specialized plans to sue anyone not using discs


Specialized plans to sue everyone



pbl450 said:


> hahaha! Fixed it for you.


bam!!


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

velodog said:


> Fck Sinyard and Fck Specialized.


Don't sugar-coat it, tell us how you really feel

The industry is pushing this hard so he may well be right. Maybe it will take a little longer than 2 years though. I will continue to ride my non-modulating rim brakes in the hopes of reinforcing my Luddite street cred


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

PBL450 said:


> Sinyard may well be right...
> 
> Specialized founder says in two years everyone will be on disc-equipped bikes | Cyclingnews.com


There's really zero change everyone who owns a rim brake bike will replace it within two years.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

He can get on his knees and suck it.

Zero chance of me being on disc brakes in two years. I have five road bikes, one I just bought this Christmas.

I don't care if he moves to discs exclusively, I'll just never buy a bike from them, boo hoo.

If they improve the technology quite a bit, I might consider it. But as it is now they can pack it.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

LOL...

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/1...ad-disc-rotor-covers-lightweight-specialists/


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

PBL450 said:


> Sinyard may well be right...
> 
> Specialized founder says in two years everyone will be on disc-equipped bikes | Cyclingnews.com


I've noticed the most eager to "upgrade" seem to be 50+ yr old cyclists who ride at 15 mph. Same ones who think they need a Roubaix "endurance" bike to do an 80 mile ride.

That big "mass market" in the middle is where the $$ is, so of course the Mfrs are keen to see millions of bikes scrapped because they're "not safe". 

New frames & forks , new wheels, new groupsets -- doesn't lend itself to incremental upgrades, it's all or nothing.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Marc said:


> LOL...
> 
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/1...ad-disc-rotor-covers-lightweight-specialists/


Gives dork disc manufacturers something new to make and consumers something new to take off and throw away when they buy a new bike.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

tom_h said:


> I've noticed the most eager to "upgrade" seem to be 50+ yr old cyclists who ride at 15 mph.



I've noticed it's the 50+yr old cyclists who ride at <15mph who are whining the most about disc brakes 



.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

deleted


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

tom_h said:


> I've noticed the most eager to "upgrade" seem to be 50+ yr old cyclists who ride at 15 mph.





MoPho said:


> I've noticed it's the 50+yr old cyclists who ride at <15mph who are whining the most about disc brakes.


Boy am I happy I'm only 48.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Well I'm in my 30's, I ride well above 15mph average, and disc brakes can pack it. They're not for me, my terrain or riding style. They don't belong in the mountains if the rider has the proper skill. You may think you can descend faster than me with them, but I will have dropped you by so much on the climb you won't be seeing me again on the way down at all.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

I stand corrected, the whiners are in their 30's too 




> You may think you can descend faster than me with them, but I will have dropped you by so much on the climb you won't be seeing me again on the way down at all.



Here's a cookie











.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Fort the sake of clarification, in the piece he doesn't claim all cyclists will be on discs in 2 years, peeps. He claims the whole pro peloton will be. Both claims sound like BS to me, but manufacturers have a serious impact on what pros ride so he may have a point?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jetdog9 said:


> Give's dork disc manufacturers something new to make and consumers something new to take off and throw away when they buy a new bike.


That's a dork disc's dorc disk.

Now I really don't want disc brakes.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

tom_h said:


> I've noticed the most eager to "upgrade" seem to be 50+ yr old cyclists who ride at 15 mph. Same ones who think they need a Roubaix "endurance" bike to do an 80 mile ride.





MoPho said:


> I've noticed it's the 50+yr old cyclists who ride at <15mph who are whining the most about disc brakes


I'm 64. I ride a new Domane with discs. My friend Strava tells me I've ridden 838 miles so far this year with 27,677 feet of climbing at an average pace of 13 mph. 

I will endeavor to keep my complaints to myself.


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## K Dub Cycle (Oct 22, 2013)

tom_h said:


> I've noticed the most eager to "upgrade" seem to be 50+ yr old cyclists who ride at 15 mph.


I've noticed it's the 50+ year old cyclists who ride at



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

PBL450 said:


> Fort the sake of clarification, in the piece he doesn't claim all cyclists will be on discs in 2 years, peeps. He claims the whole pro peloton will be. Both claims sound like BS to me, but manufacturers have a serious impact on what pros ride so he may have a point?


okay, I didn't read it and though you (he) meant ALL period. Definitely could happen at the top level where sponsorship has such large influence.

Anyway, emergency stopping scenarios aside, being able to descend faster with disc brakes is total BS. 
I've never done a descent and thought to myself I would have done it faster if I had better brakes. 
Bigger/softer/more grip tires and more skill are the only things that'll make a descent faster. Well, other than being more crazy.

I wonder if there's any correlation between body weight and preference for disc brakes though? It doesn't take much to scrub the necessary speed off my 145 pounds bombing down a hill and doing it with rim brakes is no problem. Maybe a 200+ pounder would need disc brakes to do what much lighter riders can do without them?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I wonder if there's any correlation between body weight and preference for disc brakes though? It doesn't take much to scrub the necessary speed off my 145 pounds bombing down a hill and doing it with rim brakes is no problem. Maybe a 200+ pounder would need disc brakes to do what much lighter riders can do without them?


Quintana: Disc brakes are heavier, less aero, and dangerous | Cyclingnews.com

Quintana expressed his dislike for disc brakes a while back. I haven't tried them, but I'd assume most super light climbers share a similar opinion.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Well, other than being more crazy.
> 
> I wonder if there's any correlation between body weight and preference for disc brakes though? It doesn't take much to scrub the necessary speed off my 145 pounds bombing down a hill and doing it with rim brakes is no problem. Maybe a 200+ pounder would need disc brakes to do what much lighter riders can do without them?


Clyde with a crazy streak, I'm absolutely more confident on descents using my Tarmac with discs compared to my Allez without. Totally subjective, I know, but that's my story.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> okay, I didn't read it and though you (he) meant ALL period. Definitely could happen at the top level where sponsorship has such large influence.
> 
> Anyway, emergency stopping scenarios aside, being able to descend faster with disc brakes is total BS.
> I've never done a descent and thought to myself I would have done it faster if I had better brakes.
> ...



On a regular group ride that had a 5 mile technical descent, a friend of mine would alternate between disc and rim brake bikes, when on the disc he would ride away from me every time, when on the rim brake I could stay with him. This was repeated many times last year. One ride I even had a head start and he still beat me. But it takes even more skill to take advantage of it.
Your comment about rider weight is silly, better braking is better braking regardless of weight, a 145lb rider is going to be able to take even more advantage. 
That said, I don't think it will make a difference in pro racing, they can use the whole road so don't need the brakes as much and it would be foolish to take the risk.






spade2you said:


> Quintana: Disc brakes are heavier, less aero, and dangerous | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Quintana expressed his dislike for disc brakes a while back. I haven't tried them, but I'd assume most super light climbers share a similar opinion.


Reads like someone who never actually used them. Much heavier? 250g isn't much, likely imperceivable. Noise? My disc brakes are quieter than my rim brakes were, especially carbon wheels. Aero, maybe, if you're in a time trial in a controlled wind tunnel. 




.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

MoPho said:


> Your comment about rider weight is silly, better braking is better braking regardless of weight, a 145lb rider is going to be able to take even more advantage.


It's a fact that the heavier a rider is the 'better' braking they will need to brake. Better braking is indeed better braking but that's only relevant if you use it. I almost never use rim brakes to their full potential so 'better' is lost on me. And yes I do ride a lot of steep twisty descents. My tires or courage would give out long before lack of braking becomes an issue. For cross, though steep trails in the woods, I could use better braking. I get it. But we're talking about road here.


I may not be correct about heavier riders tending to correlate with preference for better braking (disk) but the only thing that's silly here getting all worked up about defending your choice in brakes at the slightest hint of someone else feeling different about it.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> It's a fact that the heavier a rider is the 'better' braking they will need to brake. Better braking is indeed better braking but that's only relevant if you use it. I almost never use rim brakes to their full potential so 'better' is lost on me. And yes I do ride a lot of steep twisty descents. For cross, though steep trails in the woods, I could use better braking. I get it. But we're talking about road here.
> 
> 
> I may not be correct about heavier riders tending to correlate with preference for better braking (disk) but the only thing that's silly here is you getting all worked up about defending your choice in brakes at the slightest hint of someone else feeling different about it.



No, what's silly (and offensive) is people like you feeling the need to constantly tell people how bad disc brakes are, how much they are unnecessary and stupid people are for wanting disc when you have little to no experience with them and are passing off mis-information. What's silly is people constantly having to start threads to whine about disc brakes. No one is starting threads telling people to go out and buy disc brakes, it's always defending against ignorance. 
If you don't want them, don't buy them, but STFU already! 



.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MoPho said:


> Reads like someone who never actually used them. Much heavier? 250g isn't much, likely imperceivable. Noise? My disc brakes are quieter than my rim brakes were, especially carbon wheels. Aero, maybe, if you're in a time trial in a controlled wind tunnel.



250g per wheel of rotating mass. Quintana is ~118lbs with a pretty high power to weight. I'll take his word. I'm a pound heavier and about half the power to weight and I notice the ~250g difference of my aero wheels to my ultra light climbing wheels when going up a nice mountain.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

spade2you said:


> 250g per wheel of rotating mass. Quintana is ~118lbs with a pretty high power to weight. I'll take his word. I'm a pound heavier and about half the power to weight and I notice the ~250g difference of my aero wheels to my ultra light climbing wheels when going up a nice mountain.



No, 250g total! My disc TCR is only 1/2lb heavier than my friends near identical rim brake version. 1/2lb is nothing!! And there are already disc bikes at or below the UCI minimum. 


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MoPho said:


> No, 250g total! My disc TCR is only 1/2lb heavier than my friends near identical rim brake version. 1/2lb is nothing!! And there are already disc bikes at or below the UCI minimum.
> 
> 
> .


Welll yeah, every bike in the pro peloton will be or will be able to be the minimum but t money is no object at that level. Some folks spend good money making their bikes lighter on a budget... Wheels. Groupo. Getting off 1/2 lb is easy there but far from free. Then the gains get smaller and the cost overall rises per ounce saved. Adding 1/2 lb may be meaningless to most riders but weight does matter and adding rather than subtracting is a turn off for some people especially if they are spending good scratch to get sub 16, near 15lb bikes. Aero has its place in there as well. Small, yes, but compared to what? Shoe covers maybe? I don't know. But if you climb a LOT why ride a heavier bike than you can afford to make lighter? And for what gain? Again, to each his own, I love my discs on my mtb especially in the snow and ice. But even on rain rides I feel like my rim brake road bike operates fine. But that's just me... ride what you like.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> Welll yeah, every bike in the pro peloton will be or will be able to be the minimum but t money is no object at that level. Some folks spend good money making their bikes lighter on a budget... Wheels. Groupo. Getting off 1/2 lb is easy there but far from free. Then the gains get smaller and the cost overall rises per ounce saved. Adding 1/2 lb may be meaningless to most riders but weight does matter and adding rather than subtracting is a turn off for some people especially if they are spending good scratch to get sub 16, near 15lb bikes. Aero has its place in there as well. Small, yes, but compared to what? Shoe covers maybe? I don't know. But if you climb a LOT why ride a heavier bike than you can afford to make lighter? And for what gain? Again, to each his own, I love my discs on my mtb especially in the snow and ice. But even on rain rides I feel like my rim brake road bike operates fine. But that's just me... ride what you like.


People whine about the weight as if it adds pounds, not ounces. . Unless your paycheck comes from all that climbing, it is just a hobby and 6oz doesn't matter. If you believe that you "need" to have a weight weenie bike or aero bike so you can recreational ride, then you've fallen for that same marketing BS that you folks like to accuse the bike companies of when it comes to disc brakes. 
Now if building a weight weenie bike is your hobby and you don't want disc brakes, that is fine, but that doesn't mean that no one else should get them. 


And quite a few of the pro bikes weigh about the same or more than my disc brake tcr and as you note they have the big budget to build them light, so apparently the weight doesn't matter as much as you say. Complaining about the weight of disc brakes is a red herring 




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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

MoPho said:


> No, what's silly (and offensive) is *people like you feeling the need to constantly tell people how bad disc brakes are, how much they are unnecessary and stupid people are for wanting disc when you have little to no experience with them and are passing off mis-information.* What's silly is people constantly having to start threads to whine about disc brakes. No one is starting threads telling people to go out and buy disc brakes, it's always defending against ignorance.
> If you don't want them, don't buy them, but *STFU* already!
> 
> 
> ...


Well there is the fact that I didn't say that or anything even close to that. I wondered if heavier riders are more prone to appreciate disk brakes. Based on my experience of grocery shopping on a bike and carrying 30 extra pounds home down a steep hill that seems like sound theory to me but whatever.

Take a chill pill. We're talking about bike brakes. The chivalry is cute an all but when you snap at someone for saying something they didn't actually say it's probably a good sign you need to take a few deep breaths, at least.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MoPho said:


> People whine about the weight as if it adds pounds, not ounces. . Unless your paycheck comes from all that climbing, it is just a hobby and 6oz doesn't matter. If you believe that you "need" to have a weight weenie bike or aero bike so you can recreational ride, then you've fallen for that same marketing BS that you folks like to accuse the bike companies of when it comes to disc brakes.
> Now if building a weight weenie bike is your hobby and you don't want disc brakes, that is fine, but that doesn't mean that no one else should get them.
> 
> 
> ...


It is not a red herring. Adding weight and adding drag is not a red herring. It's simply a matter of tolerance and application. Sure, plenty of bikes on certain stages are over minimum, that's why I wrote what I did how I did... but that doesn't mean adding weight is a red herring. It's simply a matter of degrees. Maybe to many/most people they don't care. But again, why add weight when disks don't solve anything?


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> It is not a red herring. Adding weight and adding drag is not a red herring. It's simply a matter of tolerance and application. Sure, plenty of bikes on certain stages are over minimum, that's why I wrote what I did how I did... but that doesn't mean adding weight is a red herring. It's simply a matter of degrees. Maybe to many/most people they don't care. But again, why add weight when disks don't solve anything?


Why buy a Colnago instead of a Trek when it doesn't solve anything? Why get Di2 instead of mechanical when it doesn't solve anything? Why get 11-speed instead of 10 when it doesn't solve anything? Why get clipless pedals when toe-clips worked just dandy? etc.?

And disc brakes do solve the issue of overheating the rims and blowing the tire, heat delamination of carbon rims, better feel, better consistency, and better power, and better foul weather performance. Again, just because you don't want to accept it, doesn't mean that there are not benefits 

And the point was that if they have the budget to make them light and it's so important as you insinuate, why don't they? And yes, the weight issue is a red herring because it is not the real reason certain pros don't want to use them since obviously many of them are already riding heavy bikes


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

MoPho said:


> Why buy a Colnago instead of a Trek when it doesn't solve anything?


Why buy a Colnago or a Trek when you can buy _anything_ else.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

velodog said:


> Why buy a Colnago or a Trek when you can buy _anything_ else.


Perhaps because they actually build some pretty nice bikes? 


Too old _not_ to ride plastic. pphhbbttt!!!


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

spade2you said:


> 250g per wheel of rotating mass. Quintana is ~118lbs with a pretty high power to weight. I'll take his word. I'm a pound heavier and about half the power to weight and I notice the ~250g difference of my aero wheels to my ultra light climbing wheels when going up a nice mountain.


250g of rotating mass at the hub to be clear, there's not a lot of inertia to overcome. With your aero wheels, it's all in the rims. I have a friend who is a brake engineer and he told me that by taking the braking track out, they can reduce the weight of the rim to help offset the increased weight of the hubs.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

harryman said:


> 250g of rotating mass at the hub to be clear, there's not a lot of inertia to overcome. With your aero wheels, it's all in the rims. *I have a friend who is a brake engineer and he told me that by taking the braking track out, they can reduce the weight of the rim to help offset the increased weight of the hubs.*



People who make bike wheels and rims say "no, not to any meaningful degree" on clinchers. You cannot shave much material off, because if you do, then the 90PSI of tire will cause the rim sidewall to fail catastrophically by exploding out. The sidewall is structural, it is to resist the force of the tire/tube wanting to expand out. By removing material to such a degree as to achieve weight savings, you undermining the strength of the rim.


Weigh a HED Belgium disc and rim brake rim (or any rim sold in both versions)....the difference is close to being within manufacturing tolerance.


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