# Rider Weight Limit for this Wheel Build?



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm pretty sure over the summer I'm going to have a custom wheelset built. 

Thing is, I'm a bit heavy (not 'NFL lineman heavy', but heavy) and I'm curious as to what the experienced among us would think would be the rider weight limit on the following build:

Pacenti PL23 rims (i.e. the 'retro' box-section version of the Pacenti SL23, with only a 15mm depth– I dig their classic look. These are 430g rims).

Ultegra 6700 10-spd rear hub (heavy, but quiet), and either a WI T11, BHS, or Velocity front hub

28/32 on the spokes, Wheelsmith 1.8/1.55/1.8mm (or equivalent) on everything but the DS rear, which I think would be 2.0/1.7/2.0mm

Brass nipples (I live near the coast, we gots salt air)

Total weight: ~1650g


Yes, I could just tell you my current weight, but that's a moving target and seems to be heading on its way down. 

So this gives me an idea of what to shoot for, and is sort of a reward once I hit a certain weight (or I may be there already, dunno). 

Thanks for any and all info.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Additional notes: 

The roads I'm riding are 'okay, but not great' in terms of their condition. They're not Beirut, but are far from being glass-smooth either. Probably would give them a 4 or 5 out of 10, if I were to rank.

Tire-wise, I've been running rubber 26-28mm wide, at around 90psi. Will probably never go to 23s, even if I drop a lot of weight.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

My custom build was Pacenti SL23 rims, with CK hubs and 24 x 28 spoke count. Builder said I was good up to 200. Some motivation to keep me in check but currently at 170. 

Hit a huge pothole on Sunday. Wheel locked up, brakes stuck, derailleur was off. Wow! Not a single broken spoke. After a couole of quick fixes from the sag van. Rode 50 miles home and took it in to get a bit of a re-tune. 

That said I broke 5 spokes on my Rovals which Spec claimed to be good for up to 240 pounds. 

I think Ultegra hubs are as durable as the CK's (my LBS lent me an Ultegra wheel a couole of those times) and the higher spoke count should help so I would guess you would be fine up to 220?

Just an amateur opinion from someone who had enough of wheel issues.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

This should be a pretty beefy build. We build SL23s in 24/28 hole counts all the time for riders who are in the 180lb-230lb range. 
With regards to the hubs, I think the Ultegra/T11 combo is a good choice. Both of those hubs are super durable and easy to pull apart.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Those components should work out well for you, but you may want to choose 2.0/1.5(5)/2.0 spokes instead of the 1.8/1.55/1.8. 

The weight difference is small, but keeping the same size nipple all around is better in case a repair is necessary. 2.0mm nipples are much more common. Also, a person could mistakenly thread a 2.0 nipple on a 1.8 spoke, which can often hold to pretty high tension on the non-drive side before failing.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

A word of caution on the PL23; if they are tensioned more than 100kgf they may show a bit of a bump around the spoke drillings that you may not find aesthetically pleasing.
No first hand experience; it has happened to reputable sources and have seen the pictures. A similar situation was also happening with the Synergy rims and nipples pulling through the rim when tensioned to 120 kgf (I have not heard this happening with the Pacenti PL23s).

My preference in building wheels is to max out the tension to around 125-130kgf on the drive side. This allows a decent tension on the non-drive side and the assurance of a more durable wheel (higher NDS tension = spokes not unscrewing/slackening when going over bumps, etc.). With the Ultegra 6700 (my favorite training day hub, BTW) the NDS tension will be around 61 kgf when the DS tension is 125 kgf; this is pretty good. If you were to keep the DS tension to around 100kgf, the NDS tension would not be adequate and IMO, I would not trust the wheel under the weight of a heavy rider for any extended trip.

If you decide to stay with the PL23s, your choice of the heavier butted spokes on the DS may be a necessity to draw any smidgen of benefit out of the extra elasticity of the NDS spokes with the hope of keeping them tight longer. Otherwise, I would not bother; the 6700 has enough geometry to build to decent tensions and I would not want to deal with the winding of the light butted spokes.

Have also a look at the H Plus Son Archetype in silver; it may be aesthetically adequate for what you are trying to accomplish although not a retro rim.

The DT 540 is another box section trekking type rim; it could be tensioned to around 125 kgf but does not come in silver


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

A thank-you to all replies thus far.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

mtbpete said:


> Those components should work out well for you, but you may want to choose 2.0/1.5(5)/2.0 spokes instead of the 1.8/1.55/1.8.


Hmm... but I hear that 2.0/1.5/2.0mm spokes (like DT Revs) are too elastic/'twangy' for heavier riders, oftentimes? What's your take on that?

Conversely, apparently Jobst Brandt thinks that 1.8/1.6/1.8mm is wonderful for most uses, so I guess it's a fine line between 'awesome' and not, i.e. a matter of 0.1mm in the spoke center-section? :blush2:

Confusing.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> A word of caution on the PL23; if they are tensioned more than 100kgf they may show a bit of a bump around the spoke drillings that you may not find aesthetically pleasing.
> 
> No first hand experience; it has happened to reputable sources and have seen the pictures. A similar situation was also happening with the Synergy rims and nipples pulling through the rim when tensioned to 120 kgf (I have not heard this happening with the Pacenti PL23s).
> 
> ...


Many thanks for the detailed reply, griz. :yesnod:

That IS troubling though... while you say the issue with the Pacenti *PL*23 (for other readers: don't confuse the PL23 with the popular and often-mentioned SL23) is not nearly as bad as what's going on with the Velocity Synergy, still... should there be cause to worry, or is the issue a purely cosmetic one?

Obviously, if the spoke bed is too thin/flimsy and the wheel can't be built with sufficient tension (and the ability to hold that tension long-term), then I'd have to cross the PL23 off my list. 

If so, not sure I'd go with the SL23 instead, or your suggestions of the Archetype or DT540, even as good as those rims are. 

What I'm going for is a combination of 


'old school' aesthetics, i.e. low-profile box-style
wide dimensions (23mm+ width)
excellent ride quality
The last of these is really key. For example, I have a pair of Rolf Vectors on one of my bikes, and I definitely dislike the harsh ride quality, even though they are only 25mm depth rims. 

They ride very harshly compared to any low-profile box section rims I've had, and this is despite some ppl telling me that that's 'impossible!' since the tires deflect far more than any rim ever will. All I know is what I feel, and no, it's not a case of expectations being fulfilled, as I bought the Rolfs before I knew any of this stuff. 

So, if the PL23 is not good, I'd then be looking for a wide-but-shallow box rim, or failing that maybe I'd move up to a 20mm depth rim (but no more). Archetypes are too deep, DT540s are narrow and kinda heavy (though both rims work very well for a lot of ppl).

Wonder if anyone else is coming out with wide box rims anytime soon? :idea:

But I'd like to go with the PL23s if possible, as they are everything I want, assuming they can be built up right and will last while not having to be re-tensioned constantly.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Those rims should be good for someone up to the 220 range, but check with the manufacture to make sure.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

More on the PL23 controversy (or possible non-troversy?):

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rcog/dUEeqf1jRNc/1gJ5-43xG28J

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/650b/YFVcbvDHi6Q


Assuming Pacenti's own recommendation of 90-100 kgf tension, what does that do to the build?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I have no experience with the H Plus Son TB14 rims but they look to be what you are looking for visually. They are my choice for the next set of wheels I get built.

Like I said, I have no experience but maybe someone else knows.

TB14 | H PLUS SON


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> That IS troubling though... while you say the issue with the Pacenti *PL*23 (for other readers: don't confuse the PL23 with the popular and often-mentioned SL23) is not nearly as bad as what's going on with the Velocity Synergy, still... should there be cause to worry, or is the issue a purely cosmetic one?


I have not heard of any cracked rims at the eyelets of the PL23s; just the bulging out which, so far, appears to be cosmetic and visually enhanced by the shape and finish of the rim. Long term use will eventually show if the issue is contained.

The cracks on the Synergy rims were happening after use and when builders were tensioning those rims to 120kgf; the Velocity response and remedy was to limit tension at 100kgf which builders did and the problem has gone away.

Personally, I do not consider limiting the DS tension to 100kgf to be a real solution while a reinforcing extrusion thickening around the rim drilling is seemingly needed to limit the bulging. Such thickening would add a bit of weight though which apparently is a no-no. 

If you decide to build with the PL23s, consider reversing your view on reducing the number of spokes. I would build the rear wheel with 36 spokes to limit the tension each spoke sees and go from there. If the resulting NDS tension does not produce a reasonably durable wheel you could later retension higher.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

dcgriz said:


> If you decide to build with the PL23s, consider reversing your view on reducing the number of spokes. I would build the rear wheel with 36 spokes to limit the tension each spoke sees and go from there. If the resulting NDS tension does not produce a reasonably durable wheel you could later retension higher.


This makes the most amount of sense.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

dcgriz has good advice... the PL23 is a light rim with a single eyelet, and can't take high tension. So plan on 100kg on the DS, max... and adjust your spoke count accordingly. If you told us what you weigh, I missed it... but I don't think this is a good rim choice if you are >220lb. 

Do you care about color? Maybe try the Sun CR18 which come in polished silver also. Real weights are ~550g I hear... and they are cheap. Or HPS TB-14s which are a bit lighter. Or the DT TK540 which do not have a polished option.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

rruff said:


> dcgriz has good advice... the PL23 is a light rim with a single eyelet, and can't take high tension. So plan on 100kg on the DS, max... and adjust your spoke count accordingly. If you told us what you weigh, I missed it... but I don't think this is a good rim choice if you are >220lb. .


To you and dcgriz (and any other EWBs)... so, go 28/36 on the spoke count? And with the gauge of spokes I mentioned previously?

Oh, and I'm not sub-220 lbs yet, but I'm within striking distance. I guess this wheelset will be my present to myself when I get there, hopefully by end of summer. 

Many thanks for the advice and guidance.

Btw, I guess I'm correct in assuming that there are no fairly-light low-profile box rims out there that can take high tension? Especially in 23mm or wider?


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## woz (Dec 26, 2005)

I'd suggest a couple changes since you don't seem to be overly concerned about having a superlight wheelset. 

I'd definitely recommend the H+Son TB14 over TL23, though there is a fairly significant difference in weight. The TB14 is a stellar rim for those wanting old school looks with new school function. I like the Pacenti, I just think that for heavier riders, spoke tension can be an issue. 

I'd also take issue with the spokes but not because of .1mm in the center sections, or the more common use of 14g nipples but it's the 1.8mm at the jbend. The 2.0 fits into the spoke holes better and will provide more longevity. Not that you can't go with a 1.8 but if you go that route I'd strongly suggest spoke head washers to help seat things solidly.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I think HPS TB14s are pretty light at ~490g... considering. I'm planning to use PL23s on my classic steel bike, but I already have 36h hubs and weigh 170, so low tension is fine. I think they are perfect for that sort of application. But if you are pushing the strength/weight limits it makes sense to use heavier rims. And use heavier DS spokes.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I think 36 on the rear is great, but I would go no less than 32 on the front not 28.

The best spoke to use is the DT Competition double butted spokes, and then use brass nipples for service durability, then use a 3 cross lacing style for superior strength. Hubs are whatever you want, if you're looking to save money the Shimano 105 for about $65 is a great deal and they come in silver if you want. 

As far as brand of rim...there are several brands of nice old school rims you could use from the expensive but very nice Torelli Triumph at about $90 each, to the VO PBP for about $63, to the Mavic Open Pro for $80, to the lowest costing rim the Sun M13 II for $31 on Amazon (this rim may be a closeout since I don't see it on the Sun site). Make sure you order one rim with 36 holes and the other with 32 holes, and make sure their double eyelets for better spoke pull out strength. And make sure you get the right color too. I just mentioned those rims as alternatives, the other rims mentioned are fine too, but for the least expensive rim the Sun would be the best option.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

froze said:


> I think 36 on the rear is great, but I would go no less than 32 on the front not 28.


I gotta agree with Froze on this. Main reason being that I'm a big fan of 32 spokes, Shux, I've got my share of 36's too.

But the real reason is that if your going to worry the rear into 36 spokes, what's the point of 28 in the front. 3x 36R/32F is gonna be one solid set of comfortable wheels and those xtra 4 spokes and nipples ain't gonna make no big weight difference.

I'm weighing in at 185lbs and sporting 3x 32s front and rear with no issues but if you're gonna worry 4 spokes, I think that 32R/32F is a better choice than 36R/28F. But that's just me.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

froze said:


> _I think 36 on the rear is great, but I would go no less than 32 on the front not 28._





velodog said:


> But the real reason is that if your going to worry the rear into 36 spokes, what's the point of 28 in the front. 3x 36R/32F is gonna be one solid set of comfortable wheels and those xtra 4 spokes and nipples ain't gonna make no big weight difference.
> 
> I'm weighing in at 185lbs and sporting 3x 32s front and rear with no issues but if you're gonna worry 4 spokes, I think that 32R/32F is a better choice than 36R/28F. But that's just me.


Well, I definitely hear what you're saying, but I think I'm influenced by Sheldon Brown's take on this:

_If you want highest performance, it is generally best to have more spokes in the rear wheel than the front. For instance, 28/36 is better than 32/32. People very rarely have trouble with front wheels:
__

Front wheels are symmetrically dished.
__

Front wheels carry less weight.
Front wheels don't have to deal with torsional loads (unless there's a hub brake).
__If you have the same number of spokes front and rear, either the front wheel is heavier than it needs to be, or the rear wheel is weaker than it should be.

_Wheelbuilding_

_Any EWBs want to weigh in?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SystemShock said:


> Well, I definitely hear what you're saying, but I think I'm influenced by Sheldon Brown's take on this:
> 
> _If you want highest performance, it is generally best to have more spokes in the rear wheel than the front. For instance, 28/36 is better than 32/32. People very rarely have trouble with front wheels:
> __
> ...


Well, there ya go. It's hard to argue with Sheldon Brown when it comes to anything bicycle related.

But I can't help but think that 28/36 would be visually awkward. Although a 36 is pretty much bullet proof.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> If you want highest performance, it is generally best to have more spokes in the rear wheel than the front.]


This optimization is true and particularly true for racing wheels where every gram or morsel of drag force could count and possibly affect the outcome of a race. However, the preface "highest performance" would best apply to the entire wheel (rims, hubs and spokes) and not just the spokes. The rims are box profile and although not the heaviest, they offer no aero benefit at all to be complemented by type and number of spokes. 

Furthermore, the quest for the "highest performance" is often concluded at the expense of durability and that's fine if the wheel is intended for such use. A 28 spoke front wheel with these rims should be adequate but a 27 or 26 spoke count may not be able to keep the rim in place. If you happen to brake a spoke or two, you may need to walk home. 

My personal view on the matter is that a 36/32 arrangement laced 3x throughout would be my choice if I was in your position. I don't see any reason whatsoever to limit the front to 28 spokes for this particular case; the few grams harvested, I fear, will be more of a detriment than benefit.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

SystemShock said:


> Any EWBs want to weigh in?


I think you will have problems with the rear 36h before you have problems with the 28h front. And it will look fine.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

rruff said:


> I think you will have problems with the rear 36h before you have problems with the 28h front. And it will look fine.


Thanks, ruff. And I agree, the looks shouldn't be an issue. An 18/24 wheelset doesn't look 'weird', and it has a higher percentage difference in # of spokes between the two wheels than 28/36 does. 

What does concern me is the broken spoke thing Griz brought up (though I've never broken a spoke). But is it a case of, '32 spokes, break a spoke, you can still ride home, 28 spokes, you break one, you're calling a cab'? Is the dividing line that hard and clear?

Again, I ask as one who doesn't know, 'cuz I've never broken a spoke (though I did once break a rear axle on a freewheel-equipped rear wheel, which was highly annoying ).


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> Thanks, ruff. And I agree, the looks shouldn't be an issue. An 18/24 wheelset doesn't look 'weird', and it has a higher percentage difference in # of spokes between the two wheels than 28/36 does.
> 
> What does concern me is the broken spoke thing Griz brought up (though I've never broken a spoke). But is it a case of, '32 spokes, break a spoke, you can still ride home, 28 spokes, you break one, you're calling a cab'? Is the dividing line that hard and clear?
> 
> Again, I ask as one who doesn't know, 'cuz I've never broken a spoke (though I did once break a rear axle on a freewheel-equipped rear wheel, which was highly annoying ).



Well, you can still ride home with a broken spoke with a 20/24 set up or 24/28 if your wheel is fairly true or at least not rubbing. That is a lot easier to fix if the nipples are external as opposed to internal.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

SystemShock said:


> But is it a case of, '32 spokes, break a spoke, you can still ride home, 28 spokes, you break one, you're calling a cab'?


It depends on rim stiffness and tension, but... if you can carry a spoke wrench, just loosen the two spokes next to the one that broke, and you should be able to ride any wheel home.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

rruff said:


> It depends on rim stiffness and tension, but... if you can carry a spoke wrench, just loosen the two spokes next to the one that broke, and you should be able to ride any wheel home.


Good tip. Thanks again, ruff. :thumbsup:


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

rruff said:


> It depends on rim stiffness and tension, but... if you can carry a spoke wrench, just loosen the two spokes next to the one that broke, and you should be able to ride any wheel home.


Depending on the weight of the person, if the person is over 200 pounds and breaks a spoke with 32 spokes he might or might not be able to adjust the wheel enough to ride home depending on the rim and which wheel (front would be no problem but the rear may be questionable). I broke a spoke on a 36 spoke rear wheel and all I had to do was twist the spoke around another spoke to keep it out the way and rode it home without ever having to adjust the other spokes, but at the time I weighed about 160, the wheel just barely missed rubbing the brake pads.

I have a touring bike with 40 spoke wheels I still carry 6 FiberFix spokes in case of a problem...which frankly I doubt would ever happen but if you're miles from home out in the middle of nowhere and perhaps a crash eliminates a few spokes it may be a good idea to have some sort of way to fix the problem. Those FiberFix spokes take up very little space and weigh next to nothing, so it's not an issue to carry them. I carry one in my seat bag on my normal road bikes just in case. The FiberFix spokes are cool because you don't have to remove the freewheel or the cassette to install it like you would have to with a rigid spoke thus you don't need to carry special tools.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

I also think that the weight of the rider has a lot to do with whether a lower spoke count wheel could be ridden after breaking spokes.

The last spoke broken while riding happened on a Ksyrium SL, from all wheels, when a pair of farm dogs decided to test my sprinting and give me chase. Make a long story short, when the fastest of the two darted for my ankle, he missed and shoved its snout in my wheel. The Ksyrium blade twisted 90 degrees where it hit bone and all the anodizing flaked away. I am amazed that the chainstay did not shutter; I did have to scrape hair off of it though. A mile or so later the spoke completely broke off and the wheel was not ridable no matter what I tried and I tried a lot. It took my wife 3 hrs to find me in the middle of nowhere.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, maybe I've even worrying too much about this, as again, I've never even broken _one_ spoke, ever. Knock on wood. 

28/36 is then lookin' pretty good. May even move up to a DA hub in the back, 7900 is almost reasonably-priced right now if you look around (thanks to 9000 being introduced), and the 36h hubs should be the last to sell out.

But Ultegra 6700 rears (though the UK sites and the like) are so damn cheap right now. 
My weight-weenism is apparently colliding with my cheapskate-ism. :idea:


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> I also think that the weight of the rider has a lot to do with whether a lower spoke count wheel could be ridden after breaking spokes.
> 
> The last spoke broken while riding happened on a Ksyrium SL, from all wheels, when a pair of farm dogs decided to test my sprinting and give me chase. Make a long story short, when the fastest of the two darted for my ankle, he missed and shoved its snout in my wheel. The Ksyrium blade twisted 90 degrees where it hit bone and all the anodizing flaked away. I am amazed that the chainstay did not shutter; I did have to scrape hair off of it though. A mile or so later the spoke completely broke off and the wheel was not ridable no matter what I tried and I tried a lot. It took my wife 3 hrs to find me in the middle of nowhere.


Horrible story, Griz. Sounds like a bad day. 

And it sounds like that mutt's face got messed up something fierce, though I don't feel too sorry for dogs that try to attack cyclists.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> Horrible story, Griz. Sounds like a bad day.
> .


Aahhh! There is good on everything if you look deep enough!😏

That morning I discovered I still had sprinting reserves hidden deep enough I had forgotten I still had!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> Aahhh! There is good on everything if you look deep enough!
> 
> That morning I discovered I still had sprinting reserves hidden deep enough I had forgotten I still had!


Yup, and ditto. Best sprint I ever did was probably on a back country road with two big mean dogs chasing me. :thumbsup:

Sidenote: Just ordered my rear hub. Dura Ace 7900, 36h.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

SystemShock said:


> Sidenote: Just ordered my rear hub. Dura Ace 7900, 36h.


Excellent choice!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> Excellent choice!


Thanks, it was a really good deal too... $199 for DA 7900 rear hub over at Colorado Cyclist.


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