# Most durable groupo?



## g_5706 (Aug 5, 2008)

*Most durable group?*

What is the most durable group from your experience? 

I guess a combination of high mileage and low maintenance is what I am looking for. Not too concerned about weight. 

Thank you


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## Doc_D (Mar 16, 2006)

I've owned shimano ultegra, dura ace, XT, XTR, SRAM apex, rival, X7 and X9. I can't count the miles I've ridden. I have never had to do anything but standard preventative maintenance to any of them.

I believe any mid to high end group from Shimano or SRAM are pretty much bullet proof. That's obviously assuming you set the up correctly and maintain them correctly.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

You know you're starting a war don't you?

Personally the most durable ever made was mid to high end Suntour components! But in today's world I would say Campy rules over the others. I threw in the "rules" part to help fan the flames of war for you.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm in the best maintained camp. I don't think higher level groups last longer. I just think they weigh less with the same durability


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

For durability & low maintenence I would choose Campy Record. Shimano Dura Ace is a close 2nd if not essentially equal. I know nothing much about Sram. I rode a friends Sram Red bike for 60-70 miles & didn't like it. That doesn't mean it's not good.

One of my bikes is a steel frame that came equipped with Campy record. A few of the parts started to become pretty worn at 60,000 miles. i wanted to replace it with ne Record atuff, but I couldn't afford it. It's Shimano now.


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## customfab (Sep 12, 2010)

The most durable group is the one that's maintained the best. Aside from maintenance a Di2 group needs less care than a mechanical groupo.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

For me the group thats lsted the longest has been my 10sp Campy Record group. I have had mostly old ultegra on othe bikes. But my Record stuff has probly 20k miles on it and it still feels and works like the day I put it on. I also put new cables on it every year.


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

I was once told at the LBS that DA should last 30K with no adjustment/wear, Ultegra 20K and 105 10k , I know theres no sexy carbon bits but that avoids any composites/metal interfacing issues


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## nolight (Oct 12, 2012)

latman said:


> I was once told at the LBS that DA should last 30K with no adjustment/wear, Ultegra 20K and 105 10k , I know theres no sexy carbon bits but that avoids any composites/metal interfacing issues


You do realise that's probably because he earns more from selling DA, followed by Ultegra, followed by 105 right?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

"Gruppo" (Italian) or "group" (English). Not "groupo."


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

"High mileage and low maintenace" eh? Sort of a "set and forget" kind of group set? 

The way that I would approach this, given the "low maintenance" requirement is to put together a combo that won't cost you an arm and a leg to fix when the "low maintenance" part catches up to you and you have to replace the high-wear items - cassettes, rings, and chains.

That rules out high end stuff like Dura Ace or Record/Chorus. I mean, have you priced out a Record cassette/chain lately? Ditto Dura Ace. Sit down with a Nashbar or Performance catalog and look at what the consumable parts (and chains, cassettes, and rings are consumables, like tires and brake pads, just more slowly) cost.

(To be clear, if you maintain these group sets, they do last. Given the cost of replacement parts, I'm religious about lubing chains, re-packing hub bearings, and keeping stuff like brake pivots clean and oiled. I have 2003 Record 10 speed on one of my bikes, and it shifts and stops like new.)

If it were me, and I were buying new, I would plop for mid-range Shimano. If it were not new, I would spring for 9 speed Ultegra or 105. If I were going retro, I'd get Shimano 600 or Suntour Superbe Pro or Sprint.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

If you're looking at Campy, the answer is always Chorus. Best price, best wear, best looks!

Disclaimer, I don't own much Chorus. I own the old Record and the new Super Record, and Centaur. I do however have a compact Chorus UT crank.


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

nolight said:


> You do realise that's probably because he earns more from selling DA, followed by Ultegra, followed by 105 right?


he would know that , but he knows in Australia people mostly buy stuff online (standard UK sites)and he fits it all together for those that can't.


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## Otterinaround (Aug 7, 2005)

I've had Shimano's... Dura Ace... 105's.... I have broken or worn all of them to pieces... Even with OCD maintenance practices.
I was converted to a campy user in 2006... I began with a record... I STILL HAVE IT... the thing shifts like a dream despite a crash which knocked a section of carbon fiber off the rear derailleur. The parts can be bought one at a time to allow for replacement... I HAVE YET to replace a chain despite putting over 200 miles a week on the bikes. I converted to CT once I moved to more mountainous areas and haven't changed since... The carbon works wonderfully and has no signs of stress or strain over nearly 7 years. 
I switched out my 105's which fell to pieces first at the shifters and the brakes... then the front derailleur just 2 years after purchasing the bike that had them on stock... brand new. 
Once I popped the Campy on there... it has remained. Amazing kit. I have only replaced 3 cables when the idiots overseas destroyed them by trying to cut them without the correct tool (the curse of the campy mummy's appears to occur when you use pliers and wire cutters).
Tough riding stuff... took the gorilla tactics of wrenchs' who shouldn't touch road bikes... took the snow, the sand, the heat, the diesel(which said gorillas use to grease and de-grease) as well as acids(cause they thought it would make it shine).


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

Get a vintage Campy Record gruppo - there's usually a good selection on e-Bay. As an example, a retired fellow came by my shop early this summer and he was riding his dad's Eisentraut with the original complete Campy Record gruppo (Hubs, bottom bracket, crankset, headset, derailleurs, downtube shifters, pedals, seatpost; and a Brooks Pro saddle, five-speed Suntour freewheel and a nice fat Sachs chain, and Cinelli bars & stem). He said his dad rode it constantly and he'd been touring on it non-stop for two years with zero mechanical problems, and figured he'd have pedaled through all the lower 48 states by this year's end. I laced up a new set of Open Pro's to the Record hubs (The sidewalls were getting a bit thin), made a couple minor adjustments, and he headed off to the Washington coast via Canada. His plan was to keep touring year-round for another few years. He e-mailed me a couple days ago from San Diego and all was well. 

I, and many others have similar tales to tell about our decades old Camp stuff.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

nolight said:


> You do realise that's probably because he earns more from selling DA, followed by Ultegra, followed by 105 right?


That's what I was thinking too. Lighter weight parts give up reliability to get that weight, so I don't buy into Dura Ace lasting longer then Ultegra, and I think Ultegra is the sweet spot on the group, not as light and fragile as Dura Ace, but smoother then 105. Also when Shimano breaks there's a good chance you can't fix it, you have to replace it, try pricing a Dura Ace briftor. Also some things are just plain weird, last I checked Dura Ace and Ultegra chain rings are hollow to save weight, 105 is solid cnc machined thus the 105 chainrings will far outlast the other two.

It's kind of like buying a Ferrari vs a Honda S2000, the Ferrari will cost you about $35,000 to tune it up, the Honda about $500. Unfortunately in this case, your the engine.

But I like Campy, and I think the sweet spot for them is Athena, priced between Ultegra and 105, lower cost to maintain then Shimano, and lighter then 105 about on par with Ultegra.


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## demonrider (Jul 18, 2012)

latman said:


> I was once told at the LBS that DA should last 30K with no adjustment/wear, Ultegra 20K and 105 10k , I know theres no sexy carbon bits but that avoids any composites/metal interfacing issues


My LBS tells me the true "workhorse" group is 105, wears and works much like the others, just a bit heavier and doesn't have carbon and/or Ti bits.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

froze said:


> That's what I was thinking too. Lighter weight parts give up reliability to get that weight, so I don't buy into Dura Ace lasting longer then Ultegra, and I think Ultegra is the sweet spot on the group, not as light and fragile as Dura Ace, but smoother then 105. Also when Shimano breaks there's a good chance you can't fix it, you have to replace it, try pricing a Dura Ace briftor. Also some things are just plain weird, last I checked Dura Ace and Ultegra chain rings are hollow to save weight, 105 is solid cnc machined thus the 105 chainrings will far outlast the other two.
> 
> It's kind of like buying a Ferrari vs a Honda S2000, the Ferrari will cost you about $35,000 to tune it up, the Honda about $500. Unfortunately in this case, your the engine.
> 
> But I like Campy, and I think the sweet spot for them is Athena, priced between Ultegra and 105, lower cost to maintain then Shimano, and lighter then 105 about on par with Ultegra.


I have to disagree with some of this. First off, Ultegra is not the sweet spot of the Shimano line...105 is. I've owned Tiagra, 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace. There is a difference between Dura Ace and Ultegra. It cracks me up that people say that Ultegra shifts the same. If anything, 105 shifts the same as Ultegra. Teg feels no crisper, if both groups are tuned correctly. Dura ace is indeed lighter, but it lasts a really long time. Dura Ace doesn't just use lighter parts like Ultegra; Dura Ace uses Titanium parts which are lighter and stronger. That's what you're paying for. Onw of my riding buddies has a 1989 Klein with Dura Ace 7400 on it. That group has gone through 23 years of abuse- crit racing and cyclocross racing. The only thing that has ever been replaced is the chain which was replaced about two years ago. I do run Dura ace on three of my bikes and 105 on one. Ultegra is 105SL. It looks more polished but internally,it is designed exactly the same as 105. I "upgraded" a bike from 105 to Ultegra once. Biggest waste of money to save a few grams. It means nothing if you don't race. Dura Ace trumps them all when you look at function after a few years. That's when D/A shines. Not sure about 7900 or 7900, but 7800 and older has always been exceptional. 105 has 30 years pedigree behind it and it performs flawlessly. Whenever you here about issues with a Shimano group, you rarely here 105 spoken in that conversation. It's race-ready, relatively inexpensive, and it just works.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

terbennett said:


> I have to disagree with some of this. First off, Ultegra is not the sweet spot of the Shimano line...105 is. I've owned Tiagra, 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace. There is a difference between Dura Ace and Ultegra. It cracks me up that people say that Ultegra shifts the same. If anything, 105 shifts the same as Ultegra. Teg feels no crisper, if both groups are tuned correctly. Dura ace is indeed lighter, but it lasts a really long time. Dura Ace doesn't just use lighter parts like Ultegra; Dura Ace uses Titanium parts which are lighter and stronger. That's what you're paying for. Onw of my riding buddies has a 1989 Klein with Dura Ace 7400 on it. That group has gone through 23 years of abuse- crit racing and cyclocross racing. The only thing that has ever been replaced is the chain which was replaced about two years ago. I do run Dura ace on three of my bikes and 105 on one. Ultegra is 105SL. It looks more polished but internally,it is designed exactly the same as 105. I "upgraded" a bike from 105 to Ultegra once. Biggest waste of money to save a few grams. It means nothing if you don't race. Dura Ace trumps them all when you look at function after a few years. That's when D/A shines. Not sure about 7900 or 7900, but 7800 and older has always been exceptional. 105 has 30 years pedigree behind it and it performs flawlessly. Whenever you here about issues with a Shimano group, you rarely here 105 spoken in that conversation. It's race-ready, relatively inexpensive, and it just works.


You may be right. I knew at one time about 15 years or so ago 105 was the sweet spot, even knew guys who raced on it. But I thought this last year Shimano significantly brought down the quality of 105 because it was stealing sales from Ultegra...but after reading your post I think I'm wrong.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Last year Shimano brought the 105 up a level. The 5700 105 is a very nice groupset. Works just as well as Ultegra, but is heavier.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

latman said:


> I was once told at the LBS that DA should last 30K with no adjustment/wear, Ultegra 20K and 105 10k , I know theres no sexy carbon bits but that avoids any composites/metal interfacing issues


Must be true since an expert at an LBS said so, but I can't imagine why it would be, or how he could possibly put mileage numbers on it.


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

g_5706 said:


> What is the most durable groupo from your experience?


Can't answer your question. What's a "groupo" anyway?

Italian to English Translation


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## Sheepo (Nov 8, 2011)

Its all good. Pick one and when the chain wears out, replace it with a Campy or a Connex.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

Hard to believe that6 repairing Campagnolo group was more expensive that a complete switch over to Shimano.... Ever think of Chorus?


Mr. Versatile said:


> For durability & low maintenence I would choose Campy Record. Shimano Dura Ace is a close 2nd if not essentially equal. I know nothing much about Sram. I rode a friends Sram Red bike for 60-70 miles & didn't like it. That doesn't mean it's not good.
> 
> One of my bikes is a steel frame that came equipped with Campy record. A few of the parts started to become pretty worn at 60,000 miles.* i wanted to replace it with ne Record atuff, but I couldn't afford it. It's Shimano now.[/*QUOTE]


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

martinrjensen said:


> Hard to believe that6 repairing Campagnolo group was more expensive that a complete switch over to Shimano.... Ever think of Chorus?
> 
> 
> Mr. Versatile said:
> ...


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Funny how no one mentions SRAM. For good reason, too. I guess if you count SRAM replacing stuff for free when it breaks then it might qualify.

The answer is Chorus or Ultegra but once you get to Chorus and above or 105 and above then there is little durability difference. You don't want any titanium cassette cogs. The Chorus FR is better than the Record/Super Record one. There is no reason to use the top level cassettes or chains.


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## Benneke (Dec 24, 2012)

I ride thousands of miles a year and have never had to replace anything other than chains and cassettes from wear. I only replace things when they break from crashing.


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## Benneke (Dec 24, 2012)

My LBS tells me to buy Dura Ace because they want all my money


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## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

Ultegra 6700 is a better groupset than 105 5700. It's not the same but just lighter. Front shifting is better with Ultegra and it uses the same stiff carbon composite chainring as Dura-Ace 7900. 105 chains are not zinc-plated and prone to surface rust. I've read claims in earlier posts that there's no difference in function or performance between these groupsets and this is incorrect. I have over 12,000km on an Ultegra 6700 groupset and it shifts just as perfectly as on day one. Given you can buy a complete Ultegra groupset for $750 this is the value purchase for a durable, low maintenance groupset.


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## Slow but old (Dec 31, 2011)

I have to agree. I bought a new bike last winter with a 105 group set. Both derailleurs went bad, and my LBS replaced them with Ultegra- no problems since, and a clearly smoother shift pattern.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Slow but old said:


> I have to agree. I bought a new bike last winter with a 105 group set. Both derailleurs went bad, and my LBS replaced them with Ultegra- no problems since, and a clearly smoother shift pattern.


Interesting because this goes a long with what I had heard about with the 105, Shimano isn't making it as good as they use to due to sales being taken from Ultegra and Dura Ace. That's what I read somewhere why they cheapened 105. But another poster refuted it and he made his arguement sound reasonable, but now I'm wondering.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

I had a 2011 bike with 5700 105 and put about 7000 mi on it before I crashed it. It worked perfectly in that time. I replaced the chain at about 5000 mi. I've ridden 6700 Ultegra and could not tell any difference in how it shifted. Not that 7000 mi is anything at all, but it worked as good as the day i bought it in that period with basically no manintannce other than oiling the chain. The 105 group has been transferred to a new frame and expect to be riding it for many more miles. The 5700 105 is a very nice group for a reasonable price IME.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Tour Qtr did a pretty big group comparison not too long ago. Durability was one of the criteria. There are also some nice wheel comparisons in this issue among other good articles. 

TOUR QTR 4-2011


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

demonrider said:


> My LBS tells me the true "workhorse" group is 105, wears and works much like the others, just a bit heavier and doesn't have carbon and/or Ti bits.


I think that's pretty much true. My wife's bike is 105 and a lot of high mileage riders I know use it. Reliable and slick.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

scottma said:


> Tour Qtr did a pretty big group comparison not too long ago. Durability was one of the criteria. There are also some nice wheel comparisons in this issue among other good articles.
> 
> TOUR QTR 4-2011


Is it my computer? I can't read that site for nothing. I tried enlarging it then it cuts off large sections of pages without anyway to move the page around to view what was cut off, so if you shrink it back down to fit you can't read it at all.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

IDK. It is a very large doc that runs in Flash. The type that looks like a magazine. You can turn the pages, zoom, etc. Maybe wait longer for it to load if you dont have a real fast Internet connection?? I would make sure you have the latest version of Adobe Flash as well.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

scottma said:


> IDK. It is a very large doc that runs in Flash. The type that looks like a magazine. You can turn the pages, zoom, etc. Maybe wait longer for it to load if you dont have a real fast Internet connection?? I would make sure you have the latest version of Adobe Flash as well.


Thanks for that, I have a fast connection, loading the pages is almost instantly: I checked the Adobe Flash and it's the latest version, and my Chrome automatically updates it when a new version comes out anyways. So I don't know either, never had that problem before. Wonder if anyone else can view it well enough to read it and can shed some light on how I can get it to be able to read it.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Weird. Maybe try launching it from the main page www.tour-quarterly.com Its the link under the SPECIAL for our readers! heading.


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## Slow but old (Dec 31, 2011)

My bike store guys were both surprised and a little embarrassed. They think there was a bad batch of 105 last year, but it usually is close to Ultegra, but heavier and less reliable. I was happy to have the Ultegra drive train.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

scottma said:


> Weird. Maybe try launching it from the main page www.tour-quarterly.com Its the link under the SPECIAL for our readers! heading.


That didn't work either, it loads the up the same. Weird.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

That's a shame. It's a 105 page magazine with huge comparisons. The component and wheels articles are really good.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Slow but old said:


> My bike store guys (are idiots) were both surprised and a little embarrassed. They think there was a bad batch of 105 last year, but it usually is close to Ultegra, but heavier and *less reliable*. I was happy to have the Ultegra drive train.


There was no "Bad batch" and 105 is in no way, I repeat........ NO WAY less reliable than Ultegra or Dura Ace. He!!, probably even Tiagra. 

They all hold up fine.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

The only groups in the Tour QTR comparison that got dinged for reliability were all SRAM below the Red level. High rate of drivetrain wear was the comment. All the Campy and Shimano groups had good durability.


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## Slow but old (Dec 31, 2011)

My 105 crank and brakes are very Ultegra like, but for some reason the FD and RD were both clunky and finally stuck at the chainline. In the two thousand miles since, the whole bike has been great.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Slow old, your problem could have been cable related or some other odd issue unique to your bike. IME 105 FD & RD like the rest of the 105 5700 groupset perform nearly identical to Ultegra 6700.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

scottma said:


> Slow old, your problem could have been cable related or some other odd issue unique to your bike. IME 105 FD & RD like the rest of the 105 5700 groupset perform nearly identical to Ultegra 6700.


Yep, In fact I beat my 105 worse because its cheaper. I run it on the cross bike and the winter bike. Always preforms great. Even when covered in road salt, ice and frozen gunk. It gets washed with a hot water in the driveway and sprayed with tri-flow on a regular basis. Works great.


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## wetPNWbiker (Jun 29, 2011)

I'll weigh in here, and pose a question as well. I have Ultegra 6700 and I've blown out a couple of the little chain lifters riveted to the big chain ring. I live in very hilly terrain and I do a lot of loaded shifting, but I am relatively disappointed in Ultegra after just 2 years of hard riding. Has anyone else had this problem? I am very meticulous about maintenance and clean up after every ride, so its not like its been abused.


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