# Cat. 5 to Cat. 3 in a season?



## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

well, it seems I have figured out how to race the local crit and consistently place in the 
top 4 positions, and often take one of the hot seat spots for additional points. I upgraded from Cat. 5 to Cat. 4 a few weeks ago and since the local races combine 5/4, 4/3, and 1/2/3, I have almost enough points after two races to upgrade to Cat. 3 (I think I need 20 points in qualifying crits)...so my question is...is it normal for a lot of other races to upgrade this fast? I thought it would be a longer road to Cat. 3 (at least two seasons), but it appears I"ll be there next week if I attend (of course I'll attend!)...

has anyone else had this experience? I'm not affiliated with a team yet so I don't have other riders to bounce questions off..


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## mattv2099 (Aug 27, 2004)

I race collegiate and I have witnessed a number of people go from cat 5 to cat 3 in a season. Actually, I've seen more people go from cat 5 to cat 2 in a couple months than I've seen go to 3...

A dude I know obliterated cat 4 and cat 3 this season and even won a stage in his first cat 2 race (a stage race) he entered... I know another guy who skipped cat 4 and 5 and entered a cat 3 stage race as his first non collegiate race and he won it...


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Not that unusual...*



bahueh said:


> well, it seems I have figured out how to race the local crit and consistently place in the
> top 4 positions, and often take one of the hot seat spots for additional points. I upgraded from Cat. 5 to Cat. 4 a few weeks ago and since the local races combine 5/4, 4/3, and 1/2/3, I have almost enough points after two races to upgrade to Cat. 3 (I think I need 20 points in qualifying crits)...so my question is...is it normal for a lot of other races to upgrade this fast? I thought it would be a longer road to Cat. 3 (at least two seasons), but it appears I"ll be there next week if I attend (of course I'll attend!)...
> 
> has anyone else had this experience? I'm not affiliated with a team yet so I don't have other riders to bounce questions off..


This is not that unusual. I've seen it, and done it myself. I went from 5-2 in one season. No big deal. How did you get almost enough points in just 2 races though? Even if you won both of your races, you'd still only have 14 points. Did you win both? If so, good jorb.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*different point system I guess..*



magnolialover said:


> This is not that unusual. I've seen it, and done it myself. I went from 5-2 in one season. No big deal. How did you get almost enough points in just 2 races though? Even if you won both of your races, you'd still only have 14 points. Did you win both? If so, good jorb.



With OBRA, they give 15 points for first, 12 for second, yatta, yatta...and hot seats for 1-3 points. I usually get a hot seat and finish top 4. I totalled 14 points in last two races and only need 20 for the upgrade according to their homepage rules. 
Maybe my math/understanding is off somewhere...I always thought the point system was ratehr generous.
if anyone has any knowledge of OBRA rules, please enlighten me...


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## bcm119 (May 22, 2002)

I was under the impression that RR's and Crits were scored by OBRA as 7-5-4-3-2-1, and there is a minimum field size for these races to count. Check it out and see how you interpret it-

http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*been all over that link..*

I interpret that the same way, but my problem in understanding comes with the points
given at each race...
check this out...

http://www.obra.org/results/2005/weekly/tues_pir/august_9.html

from this, I got more than 7 points for the race...


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## bcm119 (May 22, 2002)

Yeah, I think those points may be "series" points...I'm not sure if they count as upgrade points...it is confusing. Sorry I can't help you more than that. Try emailing OBRA or ask on the obra-topica list.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*I think...*



bcm119 said:


> Yeah, I think those points may be "series" points...I'm not sure if they count as upgrade points...it is confusing. Sorry I can't help you more than that. Try emailing OBRA or ask on the obra-topica list.


I think BCM might be correct in this one. That looks like some points they were awarding for that race, and maybe to determine who won something?? Don't know, wasn't there, but I think the points for upgrade would be determined where you finish in the race, and not so much the points gained for that specific race if they had some other competition going on within the race (think like the green jersey in le tour). You could probably discuss with your local official as to what the rules are and how many points you might have in reality. 

It appears that the OBRA points and upgrades are the same rules as USA Cycling. 

Good luck.


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## Mr_Mojo (Mar 14, 2005)

I did it last year...5 to a 3. This year I sure miss winning races! You can actually make quite a bit of money if you sandbag in the 4's for a while...


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

This has never been my problem, so, now that we've got that out of the way.
Why do you want to upgrade? Going from 3 to 4 is about bragging rights, mostly, unless you want to race 1/2/3, which is a world of difference from 3/4 races (most of the promoters around me combine 3's and 4's into one field anyway -- as a 4, I could do most of the races I would have wanted to do as a 3, anyway).
Two views -- do it now; you'll have it, you'll keep it, and who knows what next season will bring? The other -- what's the hurry? Don't worry about the upgrade and concentrate on gaining experience and bike-handling skills instead. And, getting used to winning races, and all the ways to win a race (and to lose, if you could have contended) probably will teach you more at this stage than the upgrade will.
Don't get me wrong -- if I had the points, I would do it in a heartbeat (for the bragging rights). But I'm also in my third year racing, with lots of Masters racing.


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## hrv (Dec 9, 2001)

Great job, whatever the outcome!

So have you been placing well in the 3/4's, or the 4/5's? And what 'real' crits have you recently been in , and how did you do? I'd be really suprised if Candi allowed upgrades based on PIR racing only, it being a 'practise' crit venue. I might be full of it, however. So rock on!

Can double check by emailing her [email protected] Or ask her next time you see her.

Keep up the good work!


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*I sent the Candi...*

an email...no response yet. PIR seems like a damn good way to upgrade if you can and the races qualify. closed course with familiar faces each week of who you get to know their strategies and strengths...its fun to try and counter and attack.
Mostly i"ve been placing in the 4/5 race after upgrading to Cat. 4 about a month ago..sandbagging sort of, although the 3/4 race doesn't move all so much faster. I'll be there soon enough.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

man, if you haven't been kicking butt in the 3/4, then, I'll say it again, what's the hurry?
Maybe it's true that the higher cat's not much faster incrementally, but the bigger difference is the skill level expected in the field. There are so many crashes in the 4's not so much because people don't make mistakes in the higher Cat's -- they surely do -- but because inexperienced 4's react badly. I can't tell you how many times people have seemed to go down for absolutely no reason, taking fifteen or twenty of their closest friends with them. I mean, no reason. This has zippo to do with strength. There may even be a bit of an inverse relationship -- the stronger you feel relatively, the more chances you'll take, the more dangerous you are.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

. . . and you know what? I'm sorry to seem a d*ck about it, but if you have only ten or fifteen races under your belt, you probably don't even know what I'm talking about.
se la guerre


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*gettin' all werked up..*



bill said:


> . . . and you know what? I'm sorry to seem a d*ck about it, but if you have only ten or fifteen races under your belt, you probably don't even know what I'm talking about.
> se la guerre



you seemingly have a grudge? i'm with ya there man, i'm the last guy who wants to get taken down (mostly as I don't have health insurance currently)...i'm not in a hurry there, slick, so go take a timeout. and seemingly, i'm too "dense" to understand the greatness of YOU. 
i have a hard time believing every Cat 3/4 crash is due to the inexperienced rider who "shouldn't be there"...he/we all earned the points through hard work and training and pain, no less then the great Bill.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

oh, man.
I was just making the point that points -- which can come from speed and strength -- don't equal skill or experience. 
As a matter of fact, I'm sitting here next to a f*cking cane, nursing my broken a** (pelvis cracked in two places, sacrum cracked), because some riders ahead of me in a paceline couldn't stay vertical. As a matter of fact, if fault is to be assigned in the incident, and, believe me, it was a stupid thing -- there was no good reason for it -- it probably was a Cat 3. A Cat 2 pulled off the front (nothing weird about that), a Cat 3 didn't want to pull (apparently he pulled off erratically), causing another Cat 2 to yank on his brakes, starting a chain reacton. So, whatever.
If you think this is about my aggrandizing myself at your expense, well, I don't see it, but I suppose I'm sorry.
But I'm more sorry about my lost season and my broken a**.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*it did read that way...*



bill said:


> oh, man.
> I was just making the point that points -- which can come from speed and strength -- don't equal skill or experience.
> As a matter of fact, I'm sitting here next to a f*cking cane, nursing my broken a** (pelvis cracked in two places, sacrum cracked), because some riders ahead of me in a paceline couldn't stay vertical. As a matter of fact, if fault is to be assigned in the incident, and, believe me, it was a stupid thing -- there was no good reason for it -- it probably was a Cat 3. A Cat 2 pulled off the front (nothing weird about that), a Cat 3 didn't want to pull (apparently he pulled off erratically), causing another Cat 2 to yank on his brakes, starting a chain reacton. So, whatever.
> If you think this is about my aggrandizing myself at your expense, well, I don't see it, but I suppose I'm sorry.
> But I'm more sorry about my lost season and my broken a**.



but I get ya...you have a right to be pissed at the lame ass pulling moves like that. You should send him the medical bill. Glad you're still with us after a move like that and I can't imagine what a cracked pelvis feels like. Again, I"m in no hurry...in fact, i was surprised the points came this fast..my question was more about the percentage of riders who collect points and upgrade that quick. the first response I got was sketchy..a guy moving from Cat. 5 to 2 in a season...he can't be that great of a bike handler in races. I've pulled one or two dumb moves but only to expense of myself...I'm scared to death of hurting me or anyone else out there..usually why i'm up front in the Cat. 4 race and constantly talking to guys around me. Realistically, I don't usually enjoy doing a 36mph sprint at the finish around a bunch of guys who just finished high school...too damn old somedays with too much to lose if one of those riders decides to spaz out.


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## hrv (Dec 9, 2001)

Man, if you haven't yet, you gotta try the 3/4's! You're absolutely right: it's not much faster than the 4/5's, but on the other hand, it is still fast , or faster, after like 15-17 laps, vs. 6 laps for the 4/5's. 

Dude, I've done many doubles: raced the 4/5s, then jumped into the 3/4's. Do it, you've got nothing to lose! I never raced the September handicaps, though, where all of the cats race together. Now that has to be a trip!


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*I did that Tuesday...*



SolsticeMan said:


> Man, if you haven't yet, you gotta try the 3/4's! You're absolutely right: it's not much faster than the 4/5's, but on the other hand, it is still fast , or faster, after like 15-17 laps, vs. 6 laps for the 4/5's.
> 
> Dude, I've done many doubles: raced the 4/5s, then jumped into the 3/4's. Do it, you've got nothing to lose! I never raced the September handicaps, though, where all of the cats race together. Now that has to be a trip!



I did jump on the 3/4 race on tuesday night. good pace, i just kept on the back where i wouldn't get in anyone's way who actually paid to be there..i think i ran out of water after about 10 laps and peeled off with 3 to go. it was faster, we were averaging about 28mph out of the wind. haven't heard of the september handicaps...now that sounds like fun! 
i'll keep an ear out..


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I know a guy that did it in about two years -- 5-2 -- and he's a great bike handler. He's also in his middle thirties, really smart, and incredibly disciplined, as well as physically talented. He loves cyclocross, which is very good for bike handling.
If you want to learn some sh*t, Masters is really good (you imply that you're a bit older). It's very fast, the fields tend to be smaller, and there are team tactics, which reduces the sketchiness from the Cat 4 everyone-gwine-win-this-race mentality. A solid 3 or a strong 4 can have a ball mixing it up with the 1's and 2's.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*i'm on the masters cusp...*



bill said:


> I know a guy that did it in about two years -- 5-2 -- and he's a great bike handler. He's also in his middle thirties, really smart, and incredibly disciplined, as well as physically talented. He loves cyclocross, which is very good for bike handling.
> If you want to learn some sh*t, Masters is really good (you imply that you're a bit older). It's very fast, the fields tend to be smaller, and there are team tactics, which reduces the sketchiness from the Cat 4 everyone-gwine-win-this-race mentality. A solid 3 or a strong 4 can have a ball mixing it up with the 1's and 2's.



I"m 30...graduate student (=expensive, overeducated brain) who's been riding a few years and just started figuring out the local crits., that's all. I've witnessed a few accidents but none at this crit. i've been talking about. TT are the favorite here...love the speed and solitude (away from all the elbow rubbing of crits) and gear, i just have been doing the crits for a little respite and training. i've always been sketched out by Cat 4/5 riders who can't seem to ride in a straight line most days...jumping on the 3/4 race is nice as people seem to handle bike/speed much more fluently...no grabbing the brakes every 30 seconds. most masters races are 30+..and I fully expect to have my a$$ handed to me the second i step up to one of those starts..


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## SCSkim83 (Aug 6, 2004)

Thats total small town stuff to up grade that fast if you are in a place where there is lots of racing and racers its much harder


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## kingfurby (May 9, 2004)

bahueh said:


> an email...no response yet. PIR seems like a damn good way to upgrade if you can and the races qualify. closed course with familiar faces each week of who you get to know their strategies and strengths...its fun to try and counter and attack.
> Mostly i"ve been placing in the 4/5 race after upgrading to Cat. 4 about a month ago..sandbagging sort of, although the 3/4 race doesn't move all so much faster. I'll be there soon enough.


I hope this doesn't depress you too much. This is how it works in the USCF and OBRA sounds very similar in its upgrade system: 

Training races don't usually count for upgrades. Not usually meaning pretty much never. The points you do earn are on the 7-5-4-3-2-1 scale. But that is at qualifying races, usually held on weekends in differing venues. The points listed next to the names of the results you posted are almost definitely for the series.

So if it seemed like it was too easy to earn upgrade points, there you go. If you were doing the same damage at weekend races you would still only have around seven points and need another 13.

It's tough to upgrade for most people. I spent more years racing in cat 4 than Bill has been racing and managed not to complain about it too much. The most visible people are those that upgrade multiple cats in one season, but they are the exception. If you are a reasonably talented racer you can expect to spend a year or two in each category (other than five, which you can blow through pretty quickly).

I would highly recommend joining a club. Get to know your fellow racers and chat with them as much as possible. Then slip it in that your looking for a club to join. Generally clubbers aren't going to approach you until you're winning or placing consistently, which could take a while. Riding for a club makes racing much more fun and exciting.


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## mattv2099 (Aug 27, 2004)

bill said:


> This has never been my problem, so, now that we've got that out of the way.
> Why do you want to upgrade? Going from 3 to 4 is about bragging rights, mostly, unless you want to race 1/2/3, which is a world of difference from 3/4 races (most of the .


huh??? Where I race we get huge fields. Most races fill up to maximum capacity. 3's don't race with 1/2's around here. And 3's don't race with 4's. 3's get their own race...


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## IFTreedog (Mar 12, 2003)

*Points as a 5 count?*

I got a late start to the season, and I didn't do my first race until July 4th. As is, I've done 6 races in the time being and won 4. So technically I should have 28 points. But the races have all been as a CAT 5 prior to the upgrade....so does this mean that I need get 20 points AS A CAT 4 in order to make the jump, or do you think that it all runs concurrently?

By the way, the difference I have noticed is that in CAT 4 there is more conversation and attempts at tactics, and the pace is a bit higher, but otherwise it's about the same level.


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## hrv (Dec 9, 2001)

SCSkim83 said:


> Thats total small town stuff to up grade that fast if you are in a place where there is lots of racing and racers its much harder


He is in a place where there *are* lots of racers and racing. Yeah, we don't have the east coast population centers but you would be hard pressed to find a more busy racing schedule than what we have here in Oregon. I would say a cat 3 here could more than hold their own against any in the country. Well, maybe not CO, from how LFR describes it..


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*the races aren't clearly noted..*



kingfurby said:


> I hope this doesn't depress you too much. This is how it works in the USCF and OBRA sounds very similar in its upgrade system:
> 
> Training races don't usually count for upgrades. Not usually meaning pretty much never. The points you do earn are on the 7-5-4-3-2-1 scale. But that is at qualifying races, usually held on weekends in differing venues. The points listed next to the names of the results you posted are almost definitely for the series.
> 
> ...



to be "training" races which is also part of my confusion. The past three weeks have given me a 3rd, 4th, and 5th...which from my math is then 9 points, 11 to go. I believe most of them have had the 25 rider minimum for the qualifying criterium title, although the minimum distance requirement isn't met...the rules are hardly clear. anyway, from my experience the upgrade system is honor system anyway...so, what the hell, I'm a Cat 1 now!!


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

bill said:


> man, if you haven't been kicking butt in the 3/4, then, I'll say it again, what's the hurry?
> Maybe it's true that the higher cat's not much faster incrementally, but the bigger difference is the skill level expected in the field. There are so many crashes in the 4's not so much because people don't make mistakes in the higher Cat's -- they surely do -- but because inexperienced 4's react badly. I can't tell you how many times people have seemed to go down for absolutely no reason, taking fifteen or twenty of their closest friends with them. I mean, no reason. This has zippo to do with strength. There may even be a bit of an inverse relationship -- the stronger you feel relatively, the more chances you'll take, the more dangerous you are.


Seems like your post makes a better argument FOR upgrading. Hang around as a 4 and you're just waiting to be involved in an accident that isn't your fault. 
Get out of those crazy, dangerous cat 4 crashfests, and into the more stable 1/2/3 fields where you can put your energies into getting stronger rather than learning bad habits from squirly riders.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*sage advice..*



Jesse D Smith said:


> Seems like your post makes a better argument FOR upgrading. Hang around as a 4 and you're just waiting to be involved in an accident that isn't your fault.
> Get out of those crazy, dangerous cat 4 crashfests, and into the more stable 1/2/3 fields where you can put your energies into getting stronger rather than learning bad habits from squirly riders.



my thoughts exactly...I hate having to worry about grabbing brakes on a totally flap course...rather worry about my cadence and positioning than some moron swinging wide without a glance...
I did a 3 day stage race out of Eastern Oregon in June...it was ridiculous...the field was yanking brakes seriously about every 2-3 minutes...the solo break was up on the peloton some 8 or 9 minutes the last day...for the life of me, couldn't figure out why! 
riders are much more fluent and stable in the Cat 3 races I've tagged along with...


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*Portland and suburbs...*



SCSkim83 said:


> Thats total small town stuff to up grade that fast if you are in a place where there is lots of racing and racers its much harder



constitute about 1.2 million people...and one of the largest cycling communities in this country. commuting, racing, whatever. Sunday mornings in the west hills include HUNDREDS of riders and DOZENS of group rides..OBRA has thousands of members.
ya, we're pretty small time here...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

*actually you have no points as a 4*



IFTreedog said:


> I got a late start to the season, and I didn't do my first race until July 4th. As is, I've done 6 races in the time being and won 4. So technically I should have 28 points. But the races have all been as a CAT 5 prior to the upgrade....so does this mean that I need get 20 points AS A CAT 4 in order to make the jump, or do you think that it all runs concurrently?
> 
> By the way, the difference I have noticed is that in CAT 4 there is more conversation and attempts at tactics, and the pace is a bit higher, but otherwise it's about the same level.


Points only count for the upgrade you are trying for at the time i.e. 4 to 3. You had no points as a 5 as it only requires 10 races to "upgrade" out of the 5s they really don't keep track of points. However if you were able to jump into cat 5 races and win 4 out of 6 you should not have too much trouble getting your points in the 4s.


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## toofast4u (Jun 7, 2005)

*easy now*

A couple of things...first you need to put into perspective the caliber of competition you are racing against. You can't compare true cat 3 fields in regional races to 4/5 or 3/4 weekly crit series fields. If this is the only way you're getting your upgrade points then you are in for a reality check the first time you get into a real cat 3 race. I'm not sure where you race but in Texas our cat 3 fields are routinely 50+ without combining categories and as high as 80 at certain races. Local crits should be a portion of your upgrade points not the only source. I don't mean to burst your bubble but placing top five in 4/5 local races is a far cry from being competitive in a true 3 field.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*competitive may not be the initial goal...*



toofast4u said:


> A couple of things...first you need to put into perspective the caliber of competition you are racing against. You can't compare true cat 3 fields in regional races to 4/5 or 3/4 weekly crit series fields. If this is the only way you're getting your upgrade points then you are in for a reality check the first time you get into a real cat 3 race. I'm not sure where you race but in Texas our cat 3 fields are routinely 50+ without combining categories and as high as 80 at certain races. Local crits should be a portion of your upgrade points not the only source. I don't mean to burst your bubble but placing top five in 4/5 local races is a far cry from being competitive in a true 3 field.


we all started out slow at our first few races (most of us anyway) and we all got better as we acclimated to the field, the talent, the pace, whatever. The point for each upgrade I think is not so much the initial result as it is the experience...at first. some guys might try and push it...but the reasons upgrades exist is to move us to levels of competition we're suited for, individually, correct? in Oregon, local races are mostly all we have through OBRA. there are occasional regional races but only a few have Cat 4...Cat 5 is out altogether. granted, a "real" regional Cat. 3 race is going to be challenging, as are most regional races at any level...the talent field is wider and more experienced. 
I did do a regional Cat 4/5 race (Elkhorn Classic) this past June...and the difference there was noticable. I placed mid pack with overall GC after suffering a setback the first day with broken spokes and a headwind..but still managed to finish 43/101. not bad I think for my first GC stage race...(can any of your tell I have a lot of free time at work this week?)


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## IFTreedog (Mar 12, 2003)

*A Race Is A Race Is A Race*

No my question had more to do with the nature of the upgrades themselves. USCF says below (and I just clipped this from their website www.usacycling.org), but what I wonder is if one can DOUBLE-DIP. That is, simultaneously upgrade from 5 to 4 and from 4 to 3 using the same races, or if you need to start all over at zero races and zero points in each category.
Otherinfo: I'm a recent transplant to NYC, but I have one win in a NorCal Crit.


Guidelines and Notes by Category:
5-4: Experience in 10 mass start races that meet the criteria in the table below (qualifying races).
4-3: 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races with a minimum of 10 top ten finishes. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
3 - 2: 25 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
2 - 1: 30 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
Qualifying Road Races for each category

Category Class RR Crit Field Experience 
5 – 4 Men 15 mi 10 mi 10 10 races 
4 – 3 Men 25 mi 20 mi 30 25 races 
Women 25 mi 15 mi 10 25 races 
Junior 25 mi 15 mi 10 25 races 
3 – 2 Men 50 mi 20 mi 50 
Women 40 mi 15 mi 20 
2 – 1 Men 80 mi 35 mi 60 
Women 50 mi 20 mi 30 


Points awarded for road placings

Cat. Race Type Points Places 
4 – 3 RR or Crit 7-5-4-3-2-1 1st-6th 
3 – 2 SR*/GC 20-17-15-13-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 1st-15th 
RR 10-7-5-3-2-1 1st-6th 
Crit 7-5-4-3-2-1 1st-6th 
2 – 1 SR*/GC 20-17-15-13-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 1st-15th 
RR 10-7-5-3-2-1 1st-6th 
Crit 7-5-4-3-2-1 1st-6th 
* For points earned in stage races, GC and stage places both count for points, but only up to the maximum of 20 points from a single stage race.

When deciding whether a rider qualifies for an upgrade, an administrator will take into account points earned in qualifying events per the table above. In the case of a rider who is marginally qualified, the quality of the events and the level of competition may be taken into account.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*that's another question I had...*



IFTreedog said:


> No my question had more to do with the nature of the upgrades themselves. USCF says below (and I just clipped this from their website www.usacycling.org), but what I wonder is if one can DOUBLE-DIP. That is, simultaneously upgrade from 5 to 4 and from 4 to 3 using the same races, or if you need to start all over at zero races and zero points in each category.
> Otherinfo: I'm a recent transplant to NYC, but I have one win in a NorCal Crit.
> 
> 
> ...



I would think they'd make you start over from ziltch...but double dipping would be nice. the organizations have to make their money some way I guess...25 races at 20$+ a piece...with a minimum of 25 guys? not a bad chunck of change we're each shelling out.
guess I should get back to work...
ONly difference with OBRA for Cat 5 to 4 is an option of 15 points OR 10 qualifying races.
we all have to pay our way to the top..


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*Final Word From Race Official!*



kingfurby said:


> I hope this doesn't depress you too much. This is how it works in the USCF and OBRA sounds very similar in its upgrade system:
> 
> Training races don't usually count for upgrades. Not usually meaning pretty much never. The points you do earn are on the 7-5-4-3-2-1 scale. But that is at qualifying races, usually held on weekends in differing venues. The points listed next to the names of the results you posted are almost definitely for the series.
> 
> ...



local tuesday crits at PIR DO COUNT for upgrade points and those points noted in results page are only series points. so...I have a total of 9/20 points for the Cat. 3 upgrade...and two more races out there this month to get that upgrade, plus a number of other races around the area before all is lost in late september...
however, there is a 12 month time period for the upgrade and I got Cat. 4 in late July..so I HAVE ALL NEXT SPRING TOO!!!! 
man, i need a life...and a team....anyone here know of any Oregon teams that are needing an additional Cat. 4 (almost 3) rider?


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## IFTreedog (Mar 12, 2003)

*Same Boat*

Same situation here: Older grad student, minimal insurance, no money, winning all kinds of CAT 5 and CAT 4 races but scared because the crosstown CAT 5 weekly is crashing all the time. There's no way I want a 17-year old taking me out because he sat on all day, rode my tail in and sideswiped ina sloppy sprint. On my side of town I got a club level upgrade from C to B (5 to 4) and won handily without a team. I'm content to take the normal 10-race upgrade from 5 to 4, and based on what the district rep told me today, start fresh from 4 to 3. It' can't be too hard, as these club races are considered road races, and so the points are good.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*we're like twins..*



IFTreedog said:


> Same situation here: Older grad student, minimal insurance, no money, winning all kinds of CAT 5 and CAT 4 races but scared because the crosstown CAT 5 weekly is crashing all the time. There's no way I want a 17-year old taking me out because he sat on all day, rode my tail in and sideswiped ina sloppy sprint. On my side of town I got a club level upgrade from C to B (5 to 4) and won handily without a team. I'm content to take the normal 10-race upgrade from 5 to 4, and based on what the district rep told me today, start fresh from 4 to 3. It' can't be too hard, as these club races are considered road races, and so the points are good.



same situation. i figure with a 3rd, 4th, and 5th place finish the past three weeks, I've got 12/20 points. i figure the spastic 16 year old junior can cross first, no big deal as long as I have all bones and skin intact with a 3rd, 1/2 second behind him...seems teams become more important with cat. 3 and above if everyone's willing to work together (which isn't often the case from what I've witnessed).


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

magnolialover said:


> This is not that unusual. I've seen it, and done it myself. I went from 5-2 in one season. No big deal. How did you get almost enough points in just 2 races though? Even if you won both of your races, you'd still only have 14 points. Did you win both? If so, good jorb.


One other thing to consider.....

My wife made the jump to the 2s after one year of racing, mostly by killing it in crits.

This year in the 1/2 field and NRCs, she got KILLED in most races, not finishing many NRC races and only winning one race (albeit the first stage of the Tour of Utah, where she wore the leaders jersey for 2 subsequent stages).

She got so upset about getting her rear end kicked that she has all but given up on racing.

If you have time, give it to yourself to learn how to race your bike.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

3 ain't but so much safer than 4. 
And, come on. the guy -- and I'm sure he's fast and talented and smart and brave and clean and reverent and all -- took some top 5's in a Tuesday night 4/5 training series. 1/2/3 racing, unless that boy has a lot more talent than all but a handful of people, isn't much of an option. most 3's that I know, unless their on the cusp of 2, don't do a whole lot more than hang on in the 1/2/3 fields. They'll do it for training, to see how long they can hang on. not to mention that guys in the 1/2 fields complain about the newly minted 2's being a hazard


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*I plan fully and contently...*



bill said:


> 3 ain't but so much safer than 4.
> And, come on. the guy -- and I'm sure he's fast and talented and smart and brave and clean and reverent and all -- took some top 5's in a Tuesday night 4/5 training series. 1/2/3 racing, unless that boy has a lot more talent than all but a handful of people, isn't much of an option. most 3's that I know, unless their on the cusp of 2, don't do a whole lot more than hang on in the 1/2/3 fields. They'll do it for training, to see how long they can hang on. not to mention that guys in the 1/2 fields complain about the newly minted 2's being a hazard


to sandbag in the 3's for the rest of my life! 
talk about 4/5's being f&*king dangerous...local crit this weekend had an 8 guy pileup right at the start line on the second lap..just because some lame a$$ looked down for a second....pretty frightening to watch. some cat. 4 guy mangled a Fondriest too...now that deserves a laugh...a Cat. 4 showing off his $6,000 bike. he looked pretty pissed. 
seems everyone likes to complain about everyone who hasn't been racing as long...
maybe I don't want to race anymore....everyone here, and out there, seems to miss the point.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

Get out of the 4/5 races as quick as you can! I was sandbagging in the 4's and paid the price this weekend (I was taken out by some idiot who was riding a rusted bike w/down tube shifters-his chain broke and he crashed in front of me). Usually things are much safer in the Cat 3 races. I wish the races in Oregon had the 3/4 option, but usually it is a 4/5 affair only. 

Racing in the 4's is fun (I won quite a bit of money) but sometimes (especially in Oregon) nobody decent shows up, and you end up feeling silly by crushing everyone. Then again, if you go to Elkhorn, there are lots of strong Cat 4 riders there (all from California and Idaho), so you would have to be very strong to come top 3 in that race.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*where are you?*



dawgcatching said:


> Get out of the 4/5 races as quick as you can! I was sandbagging in the 4's and paid the price this weekend (I was taken out by some idiot who was riding a rusted bike w/down tube shifters-his chain broke and he crashed in front of me). Usually things are much safer in the Cat 3 races. I wish the races in Oregon had the 3/4 option, but usually it is a 4/5 affair only.
> 
> Racing in the 4's is fun (I won quite a bit of money) but sometimes (especially in Oregon) nobody decent shows up, and you end up feeling silly by crushing everyone. Then again, if you go to Elkhorn, there are lots of strong Cat 4 riders there (all from California and Idaho), so you would have to be very strong to come top 3 in that race.


you weren't in the Crawfish Criterium were you? if so, i was sidelined and saw that accident...hope you're okay. luckily (somehow) my driveside chainstay broke a few days ago and I found it saturday morning...so I opted out of that race. I usually situate about 5 back and would have probably been taken out by that guy...
I did the Elkhorn this year...ass kicking, but a great experience and yes, the field was quite a bit stronger than anything around Portland...which was actually pretty nice. 
this chainstay deal might wrap up my season..hopefully my LBS can turn it out quick and get a replacement...


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*Pir...*



dawgcatching said:


> Get out of the 4/5 races as quick as you can! I was sandbagging in the 4's and paid the price this weekend (I was taken out by some idiot who was riding a rusted bike w/down tube shifters-his chain broke and he crashed in front of me). Usually things are much safer in the Cat 3 races. I wish the races in Oregon had the 3/4 option, but usually it is a 4/5 affair only.
> 
> Racing in the 4's is fun (I won quite a bit of money) but sometimes (especially in Oregon) nobody decent shows up, and you end up feeling silly by crushing everyone. Then again, if you go to Elkhorn, there are lots of strong Cat 4 riders there (all from California and Idaho), so you would have to be very strong to come top 3 in that race.



has a 3/4 option if you're in the area. check it out sometime. 14.00$ (11.00$ with 3 cans of food). the 3/4 race starts around 6:20 or so...counts for points if you can sprint (there are rarely break away groups that don't get caught). only drawback is the east wind and the sunset in your eyes every other week due to course changes.


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## dawgcatching (Apr 26, 2004)

bahueh said:


> you weren't in the Crawfish Criterium were you? if so, i was sidelined and saw that accident...hope you're okay. luckily (somehow) my driveside chainstay broke a few days ago and I found it saturday morning...so I opted out of that race. I usually situate about 5 back and would have probably been taken out by that guy...
> I did the Elkhorn this year...ass kicking, but a great experience and yes, the field was quite a bit stronger than anything around Portland...which was actually pretty nice.
> this chainstay deal might wrap up my season..hopefully my LBS can turn it out quick and get a replacement...


Yeah, that was the crash. I was 1st wheel behind the guy that went down-he just fell over in front of me, like somebody had just removed his training wheels for the first time. Wrecked my 2-day old rear wheel, but other than that I was okay. Somebody behind me broke their arm (teammate of the guy who casued the crash). Great reason not to race with the 4/5's! The last 2 raced I had done before that (Mt. Tabor and Vancouver Crit) I saw several WTF! crashes: people just going down for no apparent reason (locking up their rear brake/changing their line mid-corner ect.). I should have known better! 

Since you were watching, what caused that idiot to crash? I have never seen somebody just fall over on a flat, straight section of a course like that. I assumed his chain broke, which would be the only possible reason I can think of that somebody would just fall down, when leading a group riding single-file (unless he had a seizure/passed out). He was riding like a madman early in the race, flying between people, taking all sorts of risks for no apparent reason: combine that with an old, rusted 10spd, and it was only a matter of time!


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*you're not the Fondriest owner, were you?*



dawgcatching said:


> Yeah, that was the crash. I was 1st wheel behind the guy that went down-he just fell over in front of me, like somebody had just removed his training wheels for the first time. Wrecked my 2-day old rear wheel, but other than that I was okay. Somebody behind me broke their arm (teammate of the guy who casued the crash). Great reason not to race with the 4/5's! The last 2 raced I had done before that (Mt. Tabor and Vancouver Crit) I saw several WTF! crashes: people just going down for no apparent reason (locking up their rear brake/changing their line mid-corner ect.). I should have known better!
> 
> Since you were watching, what caused that idiot to crash? I have never seen somebody just fall over on a flat, straight section of a course like that. I assumed his chain broke, which would be the only possible reason I can think of that somebody would just fall down, when leading a group riding single-file (unless he had a seizure/passed out). He was riding like a madman early in the race, flying between people, taking all sorts of risks for no apparent reason: combine that with an old, rusted 10spd, and it was only a matter of time!


if that was your bike, I'm so sorry. I was rigth there and only noticed him look down and just hit the pavement like a ton of bricks...didn't see any chain problems but my eyes weren't glued there. his bike looked to be fine (minus a trashed front wheel)...my guess is a chain or flat front tire or simple idiocy. he f&*ked his friend up something good...I'll never forget his Fuji flying through the air like that. I can't explain the crash..it was totally senseless and really scary for those of us who want to go home in one piece after a race. I'm watching out for that guy in the future. that was a fairly sketchy field from teh looks at the start...the environment was all wrong. old, out of shape guys and no crowds. weird. 
nobody seemed to react to quickly to that at all..i think it involved some 8 guys..sorry about your position. glad you're okay though. I didn't see any piles at the Vancouver crit ( I was sidelined then too) but I only caught about teh first two races.


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