# Ultegra SL regrets? Go DA for an extra $600?



## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

Lots of threads and opinions on Ultegra SL vs. Dura-ace and the new Madonne's. I'm down to buying the 5.2 or 5.5 and the difference in price is basically $600.

Anyone out there that went with Ultegra SL and wishes they had spent the extra cash?

Seem like all comments I've read minimize the value and suggest to go with Ultegra SL and spend more cash on wheels if you've got it. 

I'm really on the fence guys so any comments w/b great. Aside from this issue, can't wait to get the bike


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

I don't wish I spent the extra cash. Performance is virtually identical, so for the average rider (anyone who is not a professional), they probably wouldn't notice a difference in performance or weight.


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

PJ - thanks for the note. 

Did you go with the stock wheels? I was kinda thinking about swapping those out, but seems unless I went with a carbon clincher, doesn't look like there's any better option for the money.

Do you have an opinion on the stock saddle...


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## Liquidgas (Jun 14, 2008)

I was in the same position as you looking at the Madone 5.2 and 5.5. For me the price difference was not the deciding factor. I like the 5.2 because the new Ultegra SL really closes the gap between DA and Ultegra, but I also thought about how cool it would be to have a DA bike. I ended up going with the 5.2 because DA 7900 is coming out and even though the DA 7800 is still a nice grupo I know it will be "outdated" next year and no longer be the top of the line. I agree that Ultegra vs. Dura Ace would be a tougher decision but the new Ultegra SL is only about 200g which could easily be achieved through a nicer wheel set. The race lites are good, especially with the DT swiss hubs but $600 would be better spent towards some new Fulcrum or Mavic wheels.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

I'd definitely spend the $$ on wheels instead--or look at the SRAM Force model instead. At least with Force you get lighter weight and features more similar to 2009 Dura Ace.

In either case, the wheels are a better way to spend the $600--and hopefully they'll give you another $300-400 credit for the Lites on the 5.2.


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## leviathans_child (May 23, 2008)

no one should by 7800 dura-ace at the moment...7900's just aound the corner!


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## Falling Snow (Apr 2, 2008)

*Ultegra SL*

I've been really happy with the Ultegra SL, the brakes in particular. Bear in mind that I've never ridden a bike with DA but I do agree with others that, in this case, you're just as well to save some money for something else like wheels. I think the 5.5 also comes stock with a Bonty crank and not the DA - I'm not sure what the cost difference would be to exchange.

I've been reasonably pleased with the stock wheels. I have had to tighten the rear hub a couple of times, however. It's only about a five minute job, but it's a little annoying to develop play like that for someone who is as gentle on equipment and as much of a lightweight as I am. I am seriously considering having some custom wheels built, but I'll definitely keep the RL's as spares/training wheels.


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## leonrice (Jun 16, 2006)

I purchased the 5.2 last year and love the Ultegra SL setup. Mind you, I never rode DA. I saved the extra money and bought Mavic Elites for $520 at my LBS.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

If money weren't a concern, I would say go with the DA, it is just better than either Ultegra or Ultegra SL. The 7800 brakes alone are the best on the road. Is it $600 better? Only you can answer that, but I would tend to say, probably not. I will tell you that DA is more durable than the other Shimano offerings, and is like the Trek Madone (OCLV) line, in that it's manufacturing process is different from the rest of the stuff the company makes. Also the finish of DA is jewel like and does not get beat up like Ultegra and less.

That being said, unless you are pushing the envelope, or don't plan on keeping the group more than a few years, go with the Ultegra SL. The Ultegra stuff is top of the line and performance wise, other than the brakes, you will not notice a difference. I am not saying the Ultegra brakes are not good, they are indeed fantastic, and suitable for high performance riding, I am just saying that the DA brakes have that shade more intangible especially under severe conditions...I have ridden both extensively.

As far as wheels go: why the heck would you want an all carbon clincher? Expensive and toast after your first pothole or railroad crossing. If you are looking for a deep cross section wheel, there are plenty of sub 1800gram aluminum clinchers with carbon "fairings" that are bomb proof.

HTH
zac


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## catfan (Jul 1, 2003)

I went with the DA on the 5.5 for a few reasons, first I've always wanted a DA bike, second I like the paint scheme more on the 5.5, lastly the difference was less than $600 - more like $300 or so.

Are you basing the $600 difference on the msrp listed on Trek's website, or were you quoted that difference at your LBS? My 5.5 with Keo Carbon pedals was about $400 less than msrp.

Either way you go, you can't lose. Both bikes are awesome.


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

zac said:


> why the heck would you want an all carbon clincher? Expensive and toast after your first pothole or railroad crossing.


Not so with regard to OCLV carbon clinchers. Those rims are stronger than any of the aluminum rims in their road line. 

Any impact that would damage the OCLV carbon would also damage virtually any aluminum rim on the market. 

I've taken a ballpeen hammer to samples. It easily crushed aluminum, and it bounced right off of OCLV. I even felt the inside, looking for delamination or damage that's not immediately apparent, and found no evidence whatsoever.

You just can't generalize carbon, zac. Carbon components can look identical from the outside and perform (and fail) in completely different ways.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

WhiskeyNovember said:


> Not so with regard to OCLV carbon clinchers. Those rims are stronger than any of the aluminum rims in their road line.
> 
> Any impact that would damage the OCLV carbon would also damage virtually any aluminum rim on the market.
> 
> ...



That's good to know WN, but I am referring to the "lower end" Carbons that many recreational riders seek out cause they can't stomach the high price tags of a "real" set of carbon wheels. I would hardly throw a set of OCLV XXX lites in that catagory. Ney, a set of Lews or Reynolds or Mavic's either.

High end carbon wheels are still very expensive and high end carbon clinchers are really very expensive. I don't think the OP was referring to this kind of wheel, but maybe I am wrong. I don't know about you, but I generally don't like to use a high zoot wheel for an everyday application, especially when there are wheels just as strong for much less $$$.

Heck an XXX Lite in clincher is incredibly strong, but they are also north of $2k - and not really what the OP is talking about if he is in the 600-1000 range. Likewise the Aeolus. The only "cheap" one is an aluminum rim with carbon fairing (the 5.0 AC) The rest of them are well north of $2k.

I have seen and heard about too many a Carbon Clincher biting it over obstacles that a good aluminum rim will usually handle without fail. 

I recently had the pleasure of watching a mechanic at my LBS take a shop hammer to the rear triangle of an OCLV 110 frame. I was impressed. I thought he was going to break an ankle when he started jumping up and down on it too. Barely even a scratch to the frame. 

I am rambling; but we agree. OCLV is amazing stuff, I think people get the impression that it is fragile, but for the applications that it is used in by Trek. Hell my next set of wheels will probably be a set of the Aeolus 5.0s. But I think I would get them in tubies.

zac


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## tg3895 (Mar 14, 2006)

Zac,

Thanks for sharing the mechanic story. It further builds my confidence in these frames. Once in a while I hit a pothole that I am sure just cracked my frame. But no damage to my bike whatsoever. Gotta love it!

To the OP,

If DA is important enough to you, then spring the extra bucks. If not, the Ultegra SL will serve you just fine. DA 7800 will probably be dropping in price significantly once DA 7900 hits the market.


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

I appreciate all the input. 

It's really not so much about the cash as the value. With DA changing this year, my thought is to go Ultegra SL since its' soooo close in weight AND less expensive, then use whatever cash difference for wheels. Either way I'm targetting around $4000 total.

The 5.2 I ordered today (can't wait) was at $3,299, including swapping out for the longer seat cap and a longer stem. I know I'll like the Ultegra SL as I'm coming from a 5 + year old Shimano 105 gruppo on a Trek 2000.

So as for wheels, if I went with a carbon clincher, the LBS is suggesting Reynolds Attack or Assault - easily will absorb and go over the extra I would've paid for the 5.5 w/DA, and from what I've read, $'s in these wheels would vastly improve the ride over putting the $'s into the 5.5. True? Votes please.

Lastly, I asked my LBS about going from the Bontrager Race Lite to Bontrager Race X Lite and he thought that would not be a material difference - cost would be about $400 more and I'd only save 125 grams - a non-event.

Not having ridden the Reynolds, I don't have a basis for comparison so what I might do is ask them to let me test ride both the stock wheels and the Reynolds before finalizing.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

I believe the Reynolds Attack and Assault are good wheels but, I believe the Race-XXX-Lite are even better wheels. Since your dealer is a Trek dealer, perhaps you can drive a bargain on a pair of Race-XXX's. My second choice would be the new Shimano 7850-24CL wheels that are just starting to ship. Heck, they might even be my first choice.


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

May I make a suggestion? Take delivery of your new 5.2 - congrats and good luck - and ride it for 500, 1000 miles. Then see if you need to make any upgrades. Chances are you won't. You are going to love this bike as is. You would be hard pressed to find a better bike for the dollar.

Also, you never made it clear that you were coming out of an older Trek, aluminum if I'm correct, with 105s. Your new 5.2 will be so vastly superior that I highly doubt you will need to make any changes. As I like to say, ride it and enjoy it, don't worry about what you MIGHT need to upgrade. Its unbelievable, just enjoy it.


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

08Madone5.2 - as you can prob. tell, I've put LOTS of thought into this and am thinking at this point your advise is solid.

I did test ride a 5.1 for about 75 miles (3 rides) last weekend prior to placing my order for the 5.2, and think you are right on track. That bike was great! The 5.2 will be even better - this forum has been helpful to hash over ideas and get opinions and coming from someone who's got the bike already, helps. Thanks again

Time to ride....


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

One more thing 08Madonne - did you keep the white bar tape? If so, how does it wear? I would think it might get dirty looking after a few hundred miles and sweat?

If not, actually I like the look.

I've got a Fizik Arione saddle that I was going to put on for mile #1, but the credit for the stock seat was so small that I'm going to take it for initial rides and see if I like it better. What seat are you riding? The stock one?


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## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

I did keep the white bar tape. After 1000 miles since Jan, the tape is starting to get a little dirty, but for some reason, it looks better - its taking on a hue somewhat darker than the white but lighter than the frame so it looks pretty cool. The tape itself is holding up well so I'm leaving it for now.

As for the seat, mine is the stock seat, and I like it a lot. I've had no problems with it whatsoever. Thats just me though - seats are a very subjective thing.

The greatest piece of advice I can impart to you is to make sure the seat cap bolts are torqued to factory specs. If you do that you should have no slippage at all. I set my seat level and took a permanent marker and marked the seat mast just below the clamp. If the line disappears, I know my cap slipped on the mast but I have yet to have this problem. Ask your dealer to put a little Loctite carbon on carbon stuff when he adjusts your seat. This also helps to prevent any slippage of the cap on the mast.

As I said before, the bike is awesome - the Swiss Army knife of bikes - does everything well.


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## Falling Snow (Apr 2, 2008)

I've also kept the white bar tape and it's definitely showing some discoloration after a thousand miles or so. I wouldn't mind it if I hadn't recently changed saddles (which of course is a very clean white, for now), but oh well. I thought the stock seat was okay but that there was probably something out there that would work significantly better for me.

I've actually pondered what it would look like to go with red tape and red striped tires along with a a little red on a white seat. I did a rough photo edit awhile back to get an idea of what it might look like and... well, I haven't made the change yet, but I'm still thinking about it (especially since I'm still evaluating my new saddle). 

Also agreed with 08Madone5.2 on the seat bolt torque issue.


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## tg3895 (Mar 14, 2006)

I-Ride,

08Madone gave you some great advice. Get the bike and ride. After 1000 miles, you will know what you will like and dislike about the bike. THEN make the changes, if any.

I also kept the white bar tape. Very easy to keep clean with Simple Green and water.


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## mtbdcd (Jul 7, 2002)

I have used DA for years, but because of looks bought the 5.2 with the Ultegra SL. SL works every bit as good, looks better in my opinion. Even if the price was the same, i might opt for the SL.
Really do not like the RaceLite's though. Been using X-lites and X-Lite carbon for years with no problems at all. The Race Lites have been a royal pain.


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

mtbdcd -thanks for the comment. I agree on looks, espec. WRT the crank vs. the Bontrager one that comes with the DA gruppo.

Define "royal pain".....Did you know the Race Lites were redesigned this past year?


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## mtbdcd (Jul 7, 2002)

These are the 2008 Race Lite's. Less spoke count than previous years, do not know if the hubs have changed though.
Problems i have to date:
Freehub got real loose, had to be retightened.
Had to be retrued after about 2000 miles, spoke was real loose.
Inside bearing is dragging after 3k miles, needs to be replaced.
All not serious problems, but cannot get the hub/wheel quite, i.e. under moderate pressure kind of a grinding noise like you hear in a wheel that has a broken rim. But that does not seem to be the case. 
Any suggestions on how to get rid of the noise would be appreciated.

Previous X-lites have had none of these problems adfter 10-2k miles.


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## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

I agree that the SL is a nice groupo. I have about 3800 miles on my 5.2 and have been VERY happy with the bike so far. I have to agree that the $$ saved easily pays for your pedals (I spent $230 on my DA's). I have thought about a set of wheels, but only as a 2nd set with a "climbing" cassette - rather than a replacement, because so far the Race Lites are holding up just fine.

Just my $0.02


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mtbdcd said:


> These are the 2008 Race Lite's. Less spoke count than previous years, do not know if the hubs have changed though.
> Problems i have to date:
> Freehub got real loose, had to be retightened.
> Had to be retrued after about 2000 miles, spoke was real loose.
> ...


I'm not sure if I'm understanding the problem correctly, but my guess is the grinding noise is caused by a bad bearing and/ or scored cones/ races. I don't know how adept you are at wrenching, but it'll take less than an hour start to finish to overhaul a hub. If you suspect the freewheel, a very light lubricant (I use a teflon spray) may help.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Tape: Hell go with white hoods too. IMHO, the Bonty gel cork tape is some of the best you can get. Cleans easy with soap and water.










Upgrading: 08Madone is on the money...ride the damn bike and break it in...after that, change what bother's you, keep what you like...you will be surprised, you may not change anything.

Saddle: FWIW the new Bonty saddles are OEMed by Selle Italia. I agree the prior year Bonty saddles were crap. I even preordered a white SI SLR in anticipation of my Madone's delivery. You know what, 4k miles later, I am still on the stock Bonty saddle. (Side Note: My LBS owner is a top 50 Trek dealer and good friend. He indicated that Trek/Bonty had received alot of complaints about the saddles on the Madones in years past. Basically how can you put a crappy saddle on such a high end bike. Last year, Dick Burke told him that the new saddles were going to be great as they (Trek) had finally done something about them.)


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Right now Ultegra SL and SRAM Red are the nicest looking groups... I'll have to see 09 Dura Ace in person, but it might look good--although the granite-like surfaces don't look great in pictures. 09 Campy levers are just about the ugliest things I've seen (they make Shimano hoods look good).

Too bad Trek's SRAM choices are so anemic. Rival is lighter than SL, and priced similar to regular Ultegra. Plus the hoods are ergonomic and the under tape cabling looks a lot cleaner.

As far as the sadle goes, it's too bad they arent putting the new Bontrager Inform saddles on any of their bikes. It's much nicer than any Bontrager saddle I've ever tried.


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## vboy19 (Mar 24, 2008)

zac said:


> Tape: Hell go with white hoods too. IMHO, the Bonty gel cork tape is some of the best you can get. Cleans easy with soap and water.
> 
> 
> Upgrading: 08Madone is on the money...ride the damn bike and break it in...after that, change what bother's you, keep what you like...you will be surprised, you may not change anything.
> ...


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

vboy19 said:


> zac said:
> 
> 
> > Tape: Hell go with white hoods too. IMHO, the Bonty gel cork tape is some of the best you can get. Cleans easy with soap and water.
> ...


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## mtbdcd (Jul 7, 2002)

This hub has cartridge bearings. Have them on order, but do not believe they are the problem. Have had the hub apart 3 times, lubed everything. Noise will go away but comes back in maybe the same form or different type noise. I believe last time, the loose spoke might have caused some wind up type noise. I have a feeling one of the spoke eyelets is starting to pull through causing the noise. 
Will eventually find it. Can't stand a creaky bike!


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

Zac - Dude.....is that snow on the ground? 

WTH - gotta ride anyway right?


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## I-Ride (Jan 18, 2008)

'08 - FYI - I ordered Tuesday, picked it up today. A smokin' hot lookin' bike and I am jazzed to ride it. 

Thanks again for the input. 

Will post pic's in a week or so when I get a chance, but went with the white tape and added white bottle cages. Looks awesome. A short ride tonite and WOW. Actually much better feeling than the 5.1 I test road for about 75 miles.....lighter (somewhat) smooth as ever and all effort on the pedals goes forward!


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

Got a new bike this year. Older one had 9 speed 105 with triple up front. New one is a full 10 speed dura ace. Frankly, I can't tell any difference in shifting performance or anything. (Also I can't tell you if either bike is stiff or soft). SL vs dura ace really won't matter unless it matters to you.


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## lionheartdds (Mar 24, 2007)

Save your money and spend on better,lighter wheels. Performance is identical between Ultegra and DA imho. Actually, I think Ultegra shifts smoother, but I might be alone here with that opinion. Better wheels are a better value to spend an additional $600.
just my two cents of course.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

I-Ride said:


> Zac - Dude.....is that snow on the ground?
> 
> WTH - gotta ride anyway right?


Yes snow. Ended up on the mountain cruiser that day. Just couldn't pass up the fresh snow for a good pic. I hate riding in the snow. I had only had her for a couple of weeks I think when that one was taken. Been some changes since then.


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