# Reporting Sandbaggers?



## Blue Bird (Jul 21, 2011)

So in a local road race this past weekend, a team of 4 racers from VA came up to participate in the Men's 3/4. They registered 2+ months ahead of time, and were some of the very few people traveling any significant distance for the race, so I suspected they might be ringers.

Reviewing their results beforehand confirmed my suspicions. In the race, they went to the front and hammered for the 4 miles to the first hill to discourage attacks, and then went up at ludicrous speed. The strongest member went off the front at the top, tied the Strava KOM (shared with a Cat 1), and soloed the remaining 40 miles for a win by minutes. The other three teammates controlled the field, and finished 3rd, 5th, and 6th. 

So, obviously they were stronger than the vast majority of the other Cat 3s and 4s that day, good for them, but it seems like they ALL have a lot of success in the recent past. What are your feelings on giving USAC a heads up to review their assigned category?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Public humiliation is the appropriate course of action.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

They may have a larger, faster cat 3 group than you have locally. It may also be more difficult to move up to Cat 2 where they live. I wouldn't make too much of a stink unless they come down and dominate your local races every week.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I would not call this sandbagging. Different areas of the country will have different capabilities, especially in Cat 3. I know a Cat 3 rider in my area that did ok in 4 moved to Cat 3, didn't do so well. He moved to Austin, now he is really not doing well as Cat 3 in Austin has a large turn out and stronger riders.
As 202cycle stated, chances are they may not be able to make points in their area to Cat up and they are strategically looking for races to place and make points.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

foto said:


> Public humiliation is the appropriate course of action.


Based off what? winning a bike race? Should anyone who wins a race at anything below the pro level feel shame? What a bunch of bullshit.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Based off what? winning a bike race? Should anyone who wins a race at anything below the pro level feel shame? What a bunch of bullshit.


hmm...sandbagging much lately? Sounds like your conscience is less than clear.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> hmm...sandbagging much lately? Sounds like your conscience is less than clear.


Ya know how I say this forum is full of angry MAMILs? 

I present this.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Ya know how I say this forum is full of angry MAMILs?
> 
> I present this.


Interesting interpretation. Between the sourgrapes and the swearing on this thread, I am the one you single out as being angry?


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

I've done similar things in 3 races since I moved up (last August). It's not sandbagging. I do have plans to cat up in the near future, but until you can win in a dominating fashion on a regular basis, it's best to hold back a little and learn. I know way more people that moved up too fast than I know people who are sandbagging. 

If you don't like it, mark them and jump on when they take off. Then make them do most of the work or the break fails. To me it sounds mostly like the team worked really well together vs being way too strong, but that's just my opinion.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

foto said:


> Interesting interpretation. Between the sourgrapes and the swearing on this thread, I am the one you single out as being angry?


consider it public humiliation.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Guod said:


> I've done similar things in 3 races since I moved up (last August). It's not sandbagging. I do have plans to cat up in the near future, but until you can win in a dominating fashion on a regular basis, it's best to hold back a little and learn. I know way more people that moved up too fast than I know people who are sandbagging.
> 
> If you don't like it, mark them and jump on when they take off. Then make them do most of the work or the break fails. To me it sounds mostly like the team worked really well together vs being way too strong, but that's just my opinion.


what exactly do you learn by riding off the front and TT home? in terms of mass starts.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> consider it public humiliation.


Now cat up?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Now cat up?


Would that be cyclingnews.com? I don't know, that seems like a big jump from rbr. Maybe bikeforums?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

den bakker said:


> what exactly do you learn by riding off the front and TT home? in terms of mass starts.


That you're AWESOME! Rarrrrgh!!!


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

den bakker said:


> what exactly do you learn by riding off the front and TT home? in terms of mass starts.


Ok, well maybe not too much learning in that scenario (at least for the guy that rode away). However, like it or not, cat3 is only a stepping stone. I realize some people stay in the 3s, but alot just go out to accrue the needed points.

That may have been that guy's last 3 race. You don't know. Either way, calling someone a sandbagger is uncalled for unless you see the guy do it every weekend. Even then, there is a maximum for points you can accrue in a 12mo period that requires a mandatory upgrade. Only juniors are exempt from that.

Again, to me it just sounds like a well organized team that had some strong guys who are probably not going to be 3s for much longer.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

mikerp said:


> Different areas of the country will have different capabilities, especially in Cat 3.


yes, there's that and you also may need to consider the time of year as it relates to ability to ride outside.

Around here this early it's common for someone to do really well if they managed to swing a month in Arizona or something like that while the rest of are just coming off having sat on a trainer looking out the window cursing the snow. Then come June/July a lot of these guys are pretty average.
Could be similar with them coming "up" from VA too though I don't know if winter is a factor where you are as far as being able to train well on the road goes.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Guod said:


> That may have been that guy's last 3 race. You don't know. Either way, calling someone a sandbagger is uncalled for unless you see the guy do it every weekend. Even then, there is a maximum for points you can accrue in a 12mo period that requires a mandatory upgrade. Only juniors are exempt from that.
> 
> Again, to me it just sounds like a well organized team that had some strong guys who are probably not going to be 3s for much longer.


I don't even know they are 3s from the info given. it was a 3/4 field. 
I asked a specific question and we agree then for the winner this was a pointless exercise if the goal was to gain experience? Maybe going full out for 4 miles before taking off that valuable that one should really plan a few months ahead.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

foto said:


> hmm...sandbagging much lately? Sounds like your conscience is less than clear.


Nope but I have heard people like you whinge after they got beat. I have won a few races and lost a lot more when I get beat I get beat I don't go around whining about sandbaggers.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

den bakker said:


> I don't even know they are 3s from the info given. it was a 3/4 field.
> I asked a specific question and we agree then for the winner this was a pointless exercise if the goal was to gain experience? Maybe going full out for 4 miles before taking off that valuable that one should really plan a few months ahead.


I dunno. If you consider it was probably their game plan to get a guy in the break and control the field, then the whole team got experience executing the plan and being successful. The rest of the field just made the mistake of not countering the one guy going away.

I'm pretty sure they didn't plan on no one being able to follow. I've only had a handful of successful solo breaks. Somebody almost always goes with you. Plus, you're more likely to make it all the way if you have someone to work with.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

den bakker said:


> I don't even know they are 3s from the info given. it was a 3/4 field.
> I asked a specific question and we agree then for the winner this was a pointless exercise if the goal was to gain experience? Maybe going full out for 4 miles before taking off that valuable that one should really plan a few months ahead.


Actually you pretty much pointed out how it could have been a experience gaining session. Sounds like these guys showed up with a plan that they put into effect and it worked, now if you saw these same guys doing this same thing in cat 4 races for a season or more you could just put them down as a bunch of under achievers and shake your head and move on, but maybe this was them trying something and having it work a few times. 

This is what happened with me when I was cat 4 and a cat 3 I had team mates and we made plans and we tried things and some times they worked like a charm and we dominated races start to finish and some times they didn't and we got nothing out of it but every single one was a learning experience mainly because we had different plans for different races and different people. Out of that I learned how to race with a team and alone and I learned how to recognize when other people were racing as a team (even if they were in different kits) and how I could try and use that to my advantage. If you see that team again and they line up at the start and start drilling it you know to get on their breakaway guys wheel and try and go with him (so you learned something from that race as well).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Nope but I have heard people like you whinge after they got beat. I have won a few races and lost a lot more when I get beat I get beat I don't go around whining about sandbaggers.


That's seems like a smart play. It would be unwise for a sandbagger to whin(g)e about other sandbaggers. Could draw unwanted attention to one's own abilities and the hollowness of said "wins", hollowness that can be filled with the satisfaction that others don't realize you could uncork one whenever/wherever, etc. :thumbsup:


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

foto said:


> That's seems like a smart play. It would be unwise for a sandbagger to whin(g)e about other sandbaggers. Could draw unwanted attention to one's own abilities and the hollowness of said "wins", hollowness that can be filled with the satisfaction that others don't realize you could uncork one whenever/wherever, etc. :thumbsup:



None of my wins were hollow I worked hard for everyone of them and proud of everyone of them. I'm not sure I have ever been the strongest guy in a group ride or race but still managed to have a decent amount of success and help other people get some wins and places as well, I enjoyed my time racing and I proudly threw my hands up every time I won.

BTW you sound really bitter about something, not sure what but good luck with that.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

foto said:


> That's seems like a smart play. It would be unwise for a sandbagger to whin(g)e about other sandbaggers. Could draw unwanted attention to one's own abilities and the hollowness of said "wins", hollowness that can be filled with the satisfaction that others don't realize you could uncork one whenever/wherever, etc. :thumbsup:


I don't know too many that hung out in the lower categories just so they could "uncork" victories at will. You stand to win more prestige and money higher up anyway. Plus, no one gives a crap if you win a 4 or even a 3 race. The next question will be 'Great, when are you going to move up?'. If you don't want "sandbaggers" winning races you enter, then beat them.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but people who find something to complain about when they get beat is really annoying. Train harder, race smarter.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

LOL, it's rare when other people agree that a "few" posters here are bitter. There was an anti-TT bike thread and it turned out the dude didn't even have a road bike.

Sandbagging happens in my area because of the small amount of racers. Cat 3s have to race Cat 1/2/3 most of the time, so guys hang around 4 unless they know they can hang with the Cat 1/2 guys.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Sandbagging happens in my area because of the small amount of racers. Cat 3s have to race Cat 1/2/3 most of the time, so guys hang around 4 unless they know they can hang with the Cat 1/2 guys.


I can feel your pain there, my wife raced almost every race of the start of her time racing with and open field meaning beginners through pros (her race have a doped up Genevieve Jeanson in it). It was very daunting and lots of women raced a few times and never came back.

I will say that I can see why the guys who can't hand with the Cat 1,2,3s stay in the 4s because getting shelled out of a race every race is pretty boring.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> I can feel your pain there, my wife raced almost every race of the start of her time racing with and open field meaning beginners through pros (her race have a doped up Genevieve Jeanson in it). It was very daunting and lots of women raced a few times and never came back.
> 
> I will say that I can see why the guys who can't hand with the Cat 1,2,3s stay in the 4s because getting shelled out of a race every race is pretty boring.


It's very challenging. I hope to improve over the next year or two since my work hours are better as of a few months ago. Part of why I've had to focus on the TTs is due to the sandbagging. They're still very tough, but my odds are best there. Hopefully the additional riding this year should put me on the podium at least.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

spade2you said:


> It's very challenging. I hope to improve over the next year or two since my work hours are better as of a few months ago. Part of why I've had to focus on the TTs is due to the sandbagging. They're still very tough, but my odds are best there. Hopefully the additional riding this year should put me on the podium at least.


The one thing you can use to your advantage tho is you will know who the players are. Honestly this is what I ran into once I moved into the masters catagory. I was up against the same guys week in and week out and they were always they guys that were way stronger than me but I knew who they were and I knew what they were good at so instead of a X factor every time I at least knew if rider A B C and D were in the break that break was mostly likely going to the line so I worked to get strong enough to make that break and while I never beat them I got good placings by being able to read the race and work things around to as much of an advantage as I could muster honestly sometimes that is as good as you can get but you never get a chance at winning unless you are willing to play.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> It's very challenging. I hope to improve over the next year or two since my work hours are better as of a few months ago. Part of why I've had to focus on the TTs is due to the sandbagging. They're still very tough, but my odds are best there. Hopefully the additional riding this year should put me on the podium at least.


Hey Spade, whining about sandbaggers is considered quite gauche.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> I can feel your pain there, my wife raced almost every race of the start of her time racing with and open field meaning beginners through pros (her race have a doped up Genevieve Jeanson in it). It was very daunting and lots of women raced a few times and never came back.


yeah, I was going add that the issue is wide spread in the womens fields due to number.

I'm anti-sandbagging but jeez I can definitely see the motive in this scenario. Some of these poor women (and men too where the numbers are low) who might not be genetically gifted have already worked their arse off to peak at being a decent 4. To go from there, with nothing left to give, and race 1's has gotta put a real damper on racing for them.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> yeah, I was going add that the issue is wide spread in the womens fields due to number.
> 
> I'm anti-sandbagging but jeez I can definitely see the motive in this scenario. Some of these poor women (and men too where the numbers are low) who might not be genetically gifted have already worked their arse off to peak at being a decent 4. To go from there, with nothing left to give, and race 1's has gotta put a real damper on racing for them.


In my collegiate conference there were more than enough females to hold 2 sometimes 3 races. For some reason and I won't pretend to know why, the numbers fall off in the general population USAC races, and it is a real bummer and the ladies tend to move on to cross.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Blue Bird said:


> So in a local road race this past weekend, a team of 4 racers from VA came up to participate in the Men's 3/4. They registered 2+ months ahead of time, and were some of the very few people traveling any significant distance for the race, so I suspected they might be ringers.
> 
> Reviewing their results beforehand confirmed my suspicions. In the race, they went to the front and hammered for the 4 miles to the first hill to discourage attacks, and then went up at ludicrous speed. The strongest member went off the front at the top, tied the Strava KOM (shared with a Cat 1), and soloed the remaining 40 miles for a win by minutes. The other three teammates controlled the field, and finished 3rd, 5th, and 6th.
> 
> So, obviously they were stronger than the vast majority of the other Cat 3s and 4s that day, good for them, but it seems like they ALL have a lot of success in the recent past. What are your feelings on giving USAC a heads up to review their assigned category?


My feelings? No one will care but you. 

There can be an enormous difference between 3s and 1/2s. I can totally understand why someone wouldn't want to make that jump if they had busy careers and families and all. 

You can always train more...


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Blue Bird said:


> So in a local road race this past weekend, a team of 4 racers from VA came up to participate in the Men's 3/4. They registered 2+ months ahead of time, and were some of the very few people traveling any significant distance for the race, so I suspected they might be ringers.
> 
> Reviewing their results beforehand confirmed my suspicions. In the race, they went to the front and hammered for the 4 miles to the first hill to discourage attacks, and then went up at ludicrous speed. The strongest member went off the front at the top, tied the Strava KOM (shared with a Cat 1), and soloed the remaining 40 miles for a win by minutes. The other three teammates controlled the field, and finished 3rd, 5th, and 6th.
> 
> So, obviously they were stronger than the vast majority of the other Cat 3s and 4s that day, good for them, but it seems like they ALL have a lot of success in the recent past. What are your feelings on giving USAC a heads up to review their assigned category?


You could send the email. 

But the mandatory upgrade requirements are X points in a given year. And that's a calendar year. The earliest anything will be done is January 2015. 

USAC is not going to pull someone who is leading a regional points series midway through the year. 

My advice is to just let it go and improve your fitness.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> Hey Spade, whining about sandbaggers is considered quite gauche.


I have about as much control over my racing scene as I do with the weather. No real point in complaining about things I can't change. Most of it is due to the small amount of road racers and that's not going to change. 

Some guys complained and stopped racing entirely. I chose to specialize in time trials.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> I have about as much control over my racing scene as I do with the weather. No real point in complaining about things I can't change. Most of it is due to the small amount of road racers and that's not going to change.
> 
> Some guys complained and stopped racing entirely. I chose to specialize in time trials.


Well said.

Complaining about sandbaggers in road racing is less than pointless. For one thing, unless someone has more points than the mandatory upgrade, they are under no perogative to move up. If they are really "sandbagging" according to the strict definition, they are avoiding getting points in order to stay in an easier category, which implies there are opportunities for others to win.

If "your" scene is fast, work on getting faster, or work on becoming a more complete roadie, such as what you did. The whole point of having a challenging hobby is to be challenged. If someone doesn't want to have to struggle, to work to improve, they may find masturbation to be a more rewarding pass time.

This reminds me of the complaining around mtb trails, some riders would prefer to make the trail easier, to dumb it down, rather than to work on their own proficiency. Usually, those that complain really only reinforce their own inadequacy in the eyes of their peers.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Unless I can quit my job and/or un-have kids, being able to keep up with that Cat 1s is not realistic for me. My athletic ability is fairly modest. Unlimited time to train would bump me to a 2 at best. 

The Cat 3s get to have their own races for some of the bigger and more popular races. Leaving the area often means a bigger scene and this wouldn't be a problem. 

My biggest gripe is probably being a climber in the midwest. I get one race with a nice climbing finish and this year it was 36 degrees with rain, sleet, and 40mph winds. Climbed off my bike at the ~20 mile mark to avoid hypothermia. That part just plain sucked.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I don't know how it is anywhere else, but in my neck of the woods it's possible to earn far more than the points for a mandatory upgrade and remain in your category. Basically, if you don't request an upgrade and nobody reports you, you can stay put indefinitely. The local officials rely on emails to alert them to upgrade cases. 


Last year there was a guy in my area who was finally upgraded after winning two separate jerseys at the state championships. That's what it took for the officials to notice that he'd had 12 wins and 32 top 10s in cat 4 that season.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

For reference…

*Guidelines and Notes by Category*

Category 5 to 4: Finish 10 mass start races.
Category 4 to 3: 20 points; or experience in 25 races with a minimum of 10 top-10 finishes with fields of 30 riders or more; or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50. 30 Points in 12 months is a mandatory upgrade.
USA Cycling-sanctioned rider camps and clinics that are approved by the Local Associations for upgrading will count as a maximum of three upgrade points when upgrading from category 4 to 3.
Category 3 to 2: 30 points; 40 points in 12 months is a mandatory* upgrade
Category 2 to 1: 35 points**; 50 points in 12 months is a mandatory* upgrade




Fireform said:


> I don't know how it is anywhere else, but in my neck of the woods it's possible to earn far more than the points for a mandatory upgrade and remain in your category. Basically, if you don't request an upgrade and nobody reports you, you can stay put indefinitely. The local officials rely on emails to alert them to upgrade cases.
> 
> 
> Last year there was a guy in my area who was finally upgraded after winning two separate jerseys at the state championships. That's what it took for the officials to notice that he'd had 12 wins and 32 top 10s in cat 4 that season.


From USAC: *Rider upgrades are handled electronically. You can request an upgrade online through your USA Cycling account.* 

What good are the email alerts or even an email to the regional coordinator when the upgrade *must* go through the USAC account? 

Even then the 'mandatory upgrade' can only be effected on a calendar year. Neither the regional coordinator or USAC has any desire to upgrade a rider in the midst of winning a regional points series. 

Also, an involuntarily upgraded can always request a downgrade.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I know this because I won a points series as a Cat 3. The series ran from Jan1-May31. During those months I won a number of races and people were calling me a sandbagger at the start line. A few times I won the Cat 3 crit and then went on to get on the podium in the P1/2/3 crit later in the day. A few riders sent emails to the regional coordinator complaining that I was a big meanie. I had no desire to continue racing with the 3s and just wanted to win the series and get going. When I submitted my upgrade request on June 1st I had double the points needed to get Cat 2.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

You meanie, what a bunch of whiners. LOL


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

Until usacycling actually keeps track of people's upgrade points. Its up to the regional coordinator(or whoever is responsible for handling upgrades for your region) to know or the rider to apply. So the mandatory is kind of a joke if you ask me.

This is a reoccuring issue in cyclocross, as people often want to finish a points series or season then cat up.

I was always of the opinion once you get the minium points required you should apply to upgrade.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

seppo17 said:


> Until usacycling actually keeps track of people's upgrade points. Its up to the regional coordinator(or whoever is responsible for handling upgrades for your region) to know or the rider to apply. So the mandatory is kind of a joke if you ask me.
> 
> This is a reoccuring issue in cyclocross, as people often want to finish a points series or season then cat up.
> 
> I was always of the opinion once you get the minium points required you should apply to upgrade.


But if you hold out, like I did, you might get a tiny trophy and t-shirt at the end of the year!


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Unless I can quit my job and/or un-have kids, being able to keep up with that Cat 1s is not realistic for me. My athletic ability is fairly modest. Unlimited time to train would bump me to a 2 at best.


I think you're selling yourself short, but it sounds like you have a system that works for you.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> But if you hold out, like I did, you might get a tiny trophy and t-shirt at the end of the year!


Holding out until june is one thing. 

refusing to cat up even when you have the series locked and will win even if you never race again is another.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

seppo17 said:


> This is a reoccuring issue in cyclocross, as people often want to finish a points series or season then cat up.


This is an issue in cross and I can see why its frustrating on both sides, If I could every get in the position of winning the B series I would def want to follow through but I can see how its annoying if the same guy wins every race in a B series esp if he(or she) is riding away from the field from the get go.




seppo17 said:


> I was always of the opinion once you get the minium points required you should apply to upgrade.


Im not so sure I buy this one, for sure get out of the %s after you prove you can handle your bike and and hang in the field BUT it you picking up your points from finishing 5th or 6th in the 4s and 3s I would not be ins such a hurry to upgrade when you hit the minimum points because its not going to get any easier and winning its really fun so unless you finishing top 3 every weekend for an entire season or more I say get yourself a win before you move on. I know after I moved up to Cat 2/1,2,3 Masters racing I never won another race on the road I cat-ed up from 3 to 2 as soon as I had the points and I think staying a 3 a bit longer would have been more helpful and fun for me considering how much time I wanted to dedicate to training.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

32and3cross said:


> This is an issue in cross and I can see why its frustrating on both sides, If I could every get in the position of winning the B series I would def want to follow through but I can see how its annoying if the same guy wins every race in a B series esp if he(or she) is riding away from the field from the get go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On a related note, there's a former Cat 2 on my team who downgraded to Cat 3 a while ago. He's not particularly dominant--I don't think he has won a race in years--because his work as a traveling consultant makes for spotty training. His main reasoning for backing off to Cat 3 was to give him a chance to get on the podium. Actually it's several different podiums. 

35+ Category 3 racers can sometimes race three or four crits in a day. I often see Elite 3, 2/3, 3/4, 35+ 1/2/3 and even 35+ 3/4 fields.


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## SNS1938 (Aug 9, 2013)

If they were coming up to race in an easier region and thus gain points to move up a CAT, then surely that's pointless? If you're not fast enough to gain sufficient points to move up in your regular region, then what's the point in winning in an easier region to then go back home a CAT up from the one you previously weren't at the top of locally?

And if they just rode the race to feel good about themselves by smashing weaker riders, well ... I hate to think what that could mean. 

I like riding with and racing people who are just a little faster than me, so for me to win, I have to really work for it.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

foto said:


> Would that be cyclingnews.com? I don't know, that seems like a big jump from rbr. Maybe bikeforums?


Try weight weenies


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Here is my take. If one guy showed up rode away from the entire Cat 3/4 field and soloed to victory, you might have a case of sandbagging. Based on the information given, it could have just been really good tactics. 

Another issue is this. If the racers were working their way up the Cats, they may just be trying to amass enough points to move up. There may not have been a sufficient race close by and their planning put them at your race. I've seen several examples of this in years past. A guy was a Cat 2 10 years ago. Comes back and works his way back to Cat 2. In process, he dominates Cat 4 and Cat 3 races until he has enough points to move up. Is this sandbagging? Another guy was just so naturally talented that he went from Cat 4 to Cat 2 in a season...not having raced in the previous years. He totally crushed fields in Cat 4 and 3. In fact, he had enough points in Cat 3 (after only racing long enough to Cat up to 2), that he placed 2nd in the state points competition. Was he sandbagging?

Somebody else made the profound statement that you shouldn't get too worked up unless they come back next year.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

jspharmd said:


> A guy was a Cat 2 10 years ago. Comes back and works his way back to Cat 2. In process, he dominates Cat 4 and Cat 3 races until he has enough points to move up. Is this sandbagging?


He had to request a downgrade to 4. That's a bit too much of a downgrade, in my opinion. I don't think you should be able to downgrade past 3s in the first place. 

On another note, I know a "pro" who downgraded to a 3 the next season and that was a total joke. I don't know why he'd want to do that in the first place. He was moved back up to the 2s pretty quickly, though.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

runabike said:


> He had to request a downgrade to 4. That's a bit too much of a downgrade, in my opinion. I don't think you should be able to downgrade past 3s in the first place.


some are forced.


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## misterwaterfallin (Sep 14, 2012)

jspharmd said:


> Here is my take. If one guy showed up rode away from the entire Cat 3/4 field and soloed to victory, you might have a case of sandbagging. Based on the information given, it could have just been really good tactics.
> 
> Another issue is this. If the racers were working their way up the Cats, they may just be trying to amass enough points to move up. There may not have been a sufficient race close by and their planning put them at your race. I've seen several examples of this in years past. A guy was a Cat 2 10 years ago. Comes back and works his way back to Cat 2. In process, he dominates Cat 4 and Cat 3 races until he has enough points to move up. Is this sandbagging? Another guy was just so naturally talented that he went from Cat 4 to Cat 2 in a season...not having raced in the previous years. He totally crushed fields in Cat 4 and 3. In fact, he had enough points in Cat 3 (after only racing long enough to Cat up to 2), that he placed 2nd in the state points competition. Was he sandbagging?
> 
> Somebody else made the profound statement that you shouldn't get too worked up unless they come back next year.


We had a guy do that at one of the early races this year in the 3's. The next race I went with him and beat him. We are now both 2's that upgraded as soon as we had enough points. It's not always sandbagging.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

runabike said:


> He had to request a downgrade to 4. That's a bit too much of a downgrade, in my opinion. I don't think you should be able to downgrade past 3s in the first place.
> 
> On another note, I know a "pro" who downgraded to a 3 the next season and that was a total joke. I don't know why he'd want to do that in the first place. He was moved back up to the 2s pretty quickly, though.


Ha! There's a former US Pro winner in these parts who came back to racing as a cat 5. After three years he upgraded to cat 4. The guy has never lost a cash prime. Sits out the final sprint unless there's decent cash involved. Claims he's doing it 'just for fun'.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

den bakker said:


> some are forced.


Some are forced to downgrade? By who? 

I've never heard of anyone forced to downgrade. It doesn't matter if you don't ride for ten years, when you renew your license you'll be the same category as when you quit, right? 

That's how it was for me. Same category 8 years later. Only way to downgrade was to request it.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

carlosflanders said:


> Ha! There's a former US Pro winner in these parts who came back to racing as a cat 5. After three years he upgraded to cat 4. The guy has never lost a cash prime. Sits out the final sprint unless there's decent cash involved. Claims he's doing it 'just for fun'.


You have cash primes in the 4s? Nice.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

runabike said:


> You have cash primes in the 4s? Nice.


yeah like 6 dollars.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

The Midwest still has some reasonable money crits - even for 4s. Usually the primes are $20, but occasionally they'll throw a $100 one in in there - often with a lap or two to go.

Worst crit crash I've seen was two guys running themselves into the barriers over a box of Jelly Bellies.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

runabike said:


> Some are forced to downgrade? By who?
> 
> I've never heard of anyone forced to downgrade. It doesn't matter if you don't ride for ten years, when you renew your license you'll be the same category as when you quit, right?
> 
> That's how it was for me. Same category 8 years later. Only way to downgrade was to request it.


Here's what I answered to: "He had to request a downgrade to 4. That's a bit too much of a downgrade, in my opinion. I don't think you should be able to downgrade past 3s in the first place. "
person requested 3 was sent to 4.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

runabike said:


> Some are forced to downgrade? By who?
> 
> I've never heard of anyone forced to downgrade. It doesn't matter if you don't ride for ten years, when you renew your license you'll be the same category as when you quit, right?
> 
> That's how it was for me. Same category 8 years later. Only way to downgrade was to request it.


I've heard of it happening. 

A former Cat 2 I know restarted as Cat 5 after a 10+ year hiatus from cycling. He was pretty upset that they could not reinstate his Cat 2. After a year of racing he made it back to Cat 3. Then he got a girlfriend and his cycling went down the tubes. Sucker.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

runabike said:


> He had to request a downgrade to 4. That's a bit too much of a downgrade, in my opinion. I don't think you should be able to downgrade past 3s in the first place.
> 
> On another note, I know a "pro" who downgraded to a 3 the next season and that was a total joke. I don't know why he'd want to do that in the first place. He was moved back up to the 2s pretty quickly, though.



As stated by Den Bakker, some are forced. This was the case with the guy to which I'm referring.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

runabike said:


> Some are forced to downgrade? By who?
> 
> I've never heard of anyone forced to downgrade. It doesn't matter if you don't ride for ten years, when you renew your license you'll be the same category as when you quit, right?
> 
> That's how it was for me. Same category 8 years later. Only way to downgrade was to request it.


No they can force downgrade you - Local guy who rode for a regional pro team took a year off when he tried to get a new licence they insisted he was no longer a cat 1 but now a cat 4, that real fun for the rest of us in the 4s for the few races he was in.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

carlosflanders said:


> Ha! There's a former US Pro winner in these parts who came back to racing as a cat 5. After three years he upgraded to cat 4. The guy has never lost a cash prime. Sits out the final sprint unless there's decent cash involved. Claims he's doing it 'just for fun'.


That guy is a sandbagger.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

32and3cross said:


> No they can force downgrade you - Local guy who rode for a regional pro team took a year off when he tried to get a new licence they insisted he was no longer a cat 1 but now a cat 4, that real fun for the rest of us in the 4s for the few races he was in.


That makes no sense. 

Again, I just went through this this very year. Didn't ride a bike for eight years, logged on to USACycling and my category was still a 1. Bought a license and was still a 1.

The whole point of the categories is to keep a relatively comparable field. Why would an official take an expro a year off the bike and put then in a fours race which they could probably win with zero training at all?


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Seen it happen a couple times. If you're coming off a pro or international license, they sometimes don't know how to deal with it and will force you to start as a 5 and work your way back up. It's a safety thing and they don't want to risk it. Depends a lot on the local upgrade coordinator.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

carlosflanders said:


> Seen it happen a couple times. If you're coming off a pro or international license, they sometimes don't know how to deal with it and will force you to start as a 5 and work your way back up. *It's a safety thing *and they don't want to risk it. Depends a lot on the local upgrade coordinator.


Any ideas on how they think it's a safety thing?

And international licenses list your USA cycling category. Or at least the one I had did.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Say what now? You realize that's not even against the rules right? It sounds like they legitimately trained over the winter and are racing strong. They'll be upgraded soon enough.


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