# Will Contador work for Lance on Ventoux?



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Now that Contador's tour victory is all but assured and Lance's hold on 3rd place is tenuous, will Alberto help Lance fend off the attacks from the Schlecks and Wiggins? Will he pace Lance back to any breaks? Or will he seek personal glory on the big mountain?


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

No. He'll mark Andy, but LA is going to have to go up the road by himself.

You don't mess around with the maillot jaune 'pacing' teammates.


----------



## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

TmaxR said:


> Now that Contador's tour victory is all but assured and Lance's hold on 3rd place is tenuous, will Alberto help Lance fend off the attacks from the Schlecks and Wiggins? Will he pace Lance back to any breaks? Or will he seek personal glory on the big mountain?


I have a feeling after yesterday's Kloden moment that contador didn't mean to drop Kloden but was trying to help him win the stage. I dunno, I think he's less of an ahole that people make him out to be. For sure the move was stupid and brash but not malevolent. (I believe Levi and Lance are think along those lines too.) All the team hate is French/VS media bullshit. Yeah they competed for team leadership but I don't think there is any true hate between all the teamates.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*really*

Oh Hell No


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Um. No

He'll mark anyone who goes up the road (and LA ain't attacking his teammate). Lance is going to have to hang onto the Schlecks himself, and it's likely he can.

What could Contador do, anyway, other than sit on their wheels, which he would be doing anyway? Protecting his own lead is the most he can do, the rest is up to LA.

If they're all together at the end, I doubt he contests LA for the stage win, though


----------



## elcameron (Aug 10, 2002)

Astana wants the win, if they get another slot so much the better, but no way is AC going to less than he can. The Schlecks won't let him.


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

why would he? you work for teammates or friends. i only recall LA working for teammates twice; george and landis, but i could be wrong.

conti just needs to stay upright (and not get ticked by controls, sorry coolhand) until paris. ventoux will be exciting as the schlecks shadow LA, kloden, wiggins, and vandevelde up the hill. the question is who will work with whom and who will break whom? this is a stage that is truly pas cadeaux.


----------



## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

elcameron said:


> Astana wants the win, if they get another slot so much the better, but no way is AC going to less than he can. The Schlecks won't let him.


I agree with that. BUT I don't think Contador will attack unless he has too. Playing it safe in a way.


----------



## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

No gifts.


----------



## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

nims said:


> I dunno, I think he's less of an ahole that people make him out to be. For sure the move was stupid and brash but not malevolent. .


The move was brilliant and malevolant towards his Astana "team-mates" the same ones who clearly were supporting Armstrong from Day 1. 
The result is that not only has Contador defeated Armstrong comprehensively; but also with Andy Schleck in 2nd, he has Saxobank, de-facto, working for him as well as Andy. Armstrong has his work cut out keeping Wiggins at bay.

Yesterday's move was masterful.


----------



## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

I think Contador will have his hands full with the Schlecks. Unlikely Andy will get two minutes on him, but I think he will pressure him as much as he can and hope he cracks.
Lance will be on his own. I doubt he can get by Andy, but he has a champion's heart and will not give up a podium spot without a fight. If it's Contador and Armstrong at the line, I believe Contador will let Lance win. However; I think the more likely scenario is repeat of Stage 17.
Gotta hand it to Armstrong; he's ridden a great Tour; a true professional and worthy champion.


----------



## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

not a chance.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

No f'ing way AC works for LA.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

If Lance has been playing possum this whole time, he should have no time marking the Schlecks. Hell, maybe the team makes a deal that if they're feeling up to it LA and Contador attack the Schlecks on the last kilometer or so. That way LA can improve and there's no real threat for Contador if the attack fails miserably.

At this point, though, anything's possible from Astana.

If Contador is as much of an idiot a-hole as a lot are suggesting, he's gotta be the greatest Tour raw talent ever. Beating every team in the tour - including his own - while employing the most boneheaded tactics imaginable. Have they checked his bike for a gasoline engine?


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

No friggin way. He might try and slow things down, but rest assured that he'll go if someone goes. He's got time to spare, but he won't help much other than slow things down perhaps.

Impressive ride by Andy today.


----------



## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

If Lance can keep up with the attacks, I think Contador would help him get a win. That's a big IF. But it would solidify his role as "patron" of the TDF (to use a Liggetism). 

I think better odds are that Lance won't be able to keep up with the Schleck attacks, Contador will and then will go on to win the stage, just to stomp on them a bit more.


----------



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I think Lance will be free to defend third with no responsibility to AC. If he sees an opening I could see him being set free to attack Andy and go for a stage win.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Contador would be an idiot to work for anybody. Nor should we expect it.

He is the leader and everybody works for him. He should pummel everyone and get a lead of 10 minutes as a safety net for all mechanicals, stumbles and all the internet forum haters.

My heart is for Lance but Contador is the king right now.

fc


----------



## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

jptaylorsg said:


> If Lance has been playing possum this whole time, he should have no time marking the Schlecks. Hell, maybe the team makes a deal that if they're feeling up to it LA and Contador attack the Schlecks on the last kilometer or so. That way LA can improve and there's no real threat for Contador if the attack fails miserably.
> 
> At this point, though, anything's possible from Astana.
> 
> If Contador is as much of an idiot a-hole as a lot are suggesting, he's gotta be the greatest Tour raw talent ever. Beating every team in the tour - including his own - while employing the most boneheaded tactics imaginable. Have they checked his bike for a gasoline engine?


Is "Norwegian Blue" a pedigree of possum?


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Sorry, I left Klöden out of the mix. He still has a shot at the podium despite yesterday.
I guess Alberto will mark Andy, then a free for all for third. Or will someone find the legs to attack Andy Schleck?
...and if it's Lance or Klöden will Alberto work to consolidate the attack and take his teammate up the road, or will he continue to mark Schleck?


----------



## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

AC has not worked for anyone before, why would he start now? Now, if the schlecks, AC and LA are alone together on ventoux, *Maybe* AC would let LA go alone if LA attacked. AC would mark the schlecks and obviously follow them if they chase LA'


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

rogger said:


> Is "Norwegian Blue" a pedigree of possum?


I figure it's the Texas Yellow possums that are the best climbers.

I should have put quotes around "playing possum" to indicate my sarcasm.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

TmaxR said:


> Now that Contador's tour victory is all but assured and Lance's hold on 3rd place is tenuous, will Alberto help Lance fend off the attacks from the Schlecks and Wiggins? Will he pace Lance back to any breaks? Or will he seek personal glory on the big mountain?


This is a joke, right?

Winning the Tour de France is, like, the biggest deal in cycling. The rest of Astana is supposed to be working for Contador, not the reverse. Nothing is guaranteed until you reach Paris.

Egad the idiocy.


----------



## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

I think Lance has shown all Tour long that he's not what he used to be. He wont beat Andy Schleck on the Ventoux, he may even lose more time. Lance will worry more about Wiggins who's just a few seconds down, he'll mark him to keep his GC place... Contador will mark anyone, Schlecks, Wiggins, Nibali, maybe even Lance and Klöden. Astana pissed him off and he clearly showed them that he could win the Tour without any of their help...


----------



## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

> i only recall LA working for teammates twice; george and landis, but i could be wrong.


Armstrong sat on Wiggins while the Shlecks and Contador went up the road on Stage 17. Not exactly throwing himself on the stakes; but it was a supporting move.


----------



## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

jptaylorsg said:


> I figure it's the Texas Yellow possums that are the best climbers.
> 
> I should have put quotes around "playing possum" to indicate my sarcasm.


I'm sure you recall a certain Monty Python sketch revolving around the indeterminate state of a "Norwegian Blue" parrot. Lance is pining for the fjords. :wink5:


----------



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*too funny!!*



jptaylorsg said:


> I
> At this point, though, anything's possible from Astana.
> 
> If Contador is as much of an idiot a-hole as a lot are suggesting, he's gotta be the greatest Tour raw talent ever. Beating every team in the tour - including his own - while employing the most boneheaded tactics imaginable. Have they checked his bike for a gasoline engine?


too funny! i don't quite agree. but the image of this group of awesome riders bumbling their way into first place, like clouseau solves a crime, is too funny and almost true!


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

rogger said:


> I'm sure you recall a certain Monty Python sketch revolving around the indeterminate state of a "Norwegian Blue" parrot. Lance is pining for the fjords. :wink5:


This bike rider has shuffled loose the mortal coil.

It is an ex-cyclist!


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

Best thing Astana could hope for is no more off script attacks from Contador. Its hard enough marking your rivals when your own guy is throwing curve balls at you.

I wouldn't expect Contador to work. I mean first priority is the jersey. But he doesn't need to help the others by lifting the pace. Its up to them to attack. Lance to defend. And Contador to relax.


----------



## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

wiggins would probably follow wheels all day on sat.... frank would surely attack 1st.. then maybe kloden will cover the move....

IF frank went alone and got a gap... andy will attack to get to frank and work together.... contador probably go along and it might be 3 of them again for ventoux and frank might get 3rd....


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

pretender said:


> This is a joke, right?


Just trolling.


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Conti attacks at some point. Stupid pointless move - just his style.

Funner question: Does lance give a wheel when he flats?


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

danl1 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Conti attacks at some point. Stupid pointless move - just his style.
> 
> Funner question: Does lance give a wheel when he flats?


Yes, he should attack at Ventoux, win the stage, gain time on his rivals, become a Ventoux legend and secure the yellow jersey.

If that's a stupid pointless move and something he doesn't need to do, then I don't know what true racing is. 

stop the hate,
fc


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

jptaylorsg said:


> Um. No
> 
> He'll mark anyone who goes up the road (and LA ain't attacking his teammate). Lance is going to have to hang onto the Schlecks himself, and it's likely he can.


What have you seen that makes you think it's likely?

len


----------



## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Yes, Contador will help Lance, but only after he gets monkeys to fly out of his butt, which I would not put above him. He's amazing.


----------



## macalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Heh, heh...good one. Of course the yellow jersey works for a team subordinate who has never worked for him. Listen...let me show you some real estate I have in Florida....


----------



## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

weltyed said:


> why would he? you work for teammates or friends. i only recall LA working for teammates twice; george and landis, but i could be wrong.


Lance worked for Levi a couple of times this year.


----------



## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

danl1 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Conti attacks at some point. Stupid pointless move - just his style.
> 
> Funner question: Does lance give a wheel when he flats?


 I agree with Contador doing another needless attack. It is in his Jr. High school "Macho" style to do that. 

Lance give him his wheel? Boy, I don't know about that one. If LA could just ride by and finish ahead of him after some of the 'iffy' situations he's created with his 'attacks'? If it happens that Contador is ahead and has a mechanical..and Lance rode on by to take the win...Wouldn't that create a shi*-storm! Whooooeee! That would be so cool, listening to the rap after that...

Pretty far-fetched scenario..


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

francois said:


> Contador would be an idiot to work for anybody. Nor should we expect it.
> 
> He is the leader and everybody works for him. He should pummel everyone and get a lead of 10 minutes as a safety net for all mechanicals, stumbles and all the internet forum haters.
> 
> ...


It actually will be _very very _simple tactics. AC will sit on Andy's wheel, Armstrong and Kloden on Frank's. All the pressure will be on Frank and Wiggo to make time- a quick glance at the leader board times will show that. 

Prediction: Wiggo can't drop Frank, Armstrong or Kloden and finishes off the podium- Garmin gets nothing again for the entire tour and prays the Wiggo to Sky rumors are untrue. Frank tries attacking on the Ventoux and gets nothing in the end. Overall the top 6 stay basically the same.


----------



## Blue Sugar (Jun 14, 2005)

TmaxR said:


> Now that Contador's tour victory is all but assured and Lance's hold on 3rd place is tenuous, will Alberto help Lance fend off the attacks from the Schlecks and Wiggins? Will he pace Lance back to any breaks? Or will he seek personal glory on the big mountain?


You're kidding me right? No, he won't pull back to pace Lance, he'll do what he has to to ensure victory. I predict he'll attack on Ventoux and increase his lead. He's the leader, they work for him. Bruyneel would _never __let _him do anything else.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

TmaxR said:


> Just trolling.


Really? We have a cure for that now.


----------



## rensho (Aug 5, 2003)

I think the big question is if Kloden will be allowed to leave LA once LA slows to a crawl on Ventoux.


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> Lance worked for Levi a couple of times this year.


sorry. i was thinking of le tour.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

rensho said:


> I think the big question is if Kloden will be allowed to leave LA once LA slows to a crawl on Ventoux.


I predict both will crack on Ventoux pretty hard.


----------



## rensho (Aug 5, 2003)

Yeah, it would be cool to see JB and LA ask AC to pull back and pull LA up to the top, all the while, Schlecks and wiggy go right on by and one of them gets the Yellow.


----------



## dfltroll (Nov 27, 2006)

Contador needs to ask himself "What would Hinault do?"

I'm expecting this to be an exciting stage. Why shouldn't Contador attack and go for a stage win if he's feeling strong? Why shouldn't he assert himself?


----------



## rensho (Aug 5, 2003)

dfltroll said:


> I'm expecting this to be an exciting stage. Why shouldn't Contador attack and go for a stage win if he's feeling strong? Why shouldn't he assert himself?


Cuz LA desperately wants to finish on the podium. He didn't come back to racing to finish lower than that. His ego wouldn't handle it too well.

""I'll kick their asses," he told author John Wilcockson in a conversation soon after last year's Tour while discussing his planned comeback. "The Tour was a bit of a joke this year. I've got nothing against Sastre … or Christian Vande Velde. Christian's a nice guy, but finishing fifth in the Tour de France? Come on!""


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Len J said:


> What have you seen that makes you think it's likely?
> 
> len


Likely might be a bit strong, but he has recovered well in the past two mountain stages after sitting on Wiggins and letting AC mark the Schlecks (which makes some sense team-wise).

Maybe I should have said "possible" as likely probably seems to ignore the fact that they've gapped him - for whatever reason - on the past two big mountain stages and the time trial today seems to seal the fact that he's just not the rider he used to be.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

rensho said:


> Cuz LA desperately wants to finish on the podium. He didn't come back to racing to finish lower than that. His ego wouldn't handle it too well.
> 
> ""I'll kick their asses," he told author John Wilcockson in a conversation soon after last year's Tour while discussing his planned comeback. "The Tour was a bit of a joke this year. I've got nothing against Sastre … or Christian Vande Velde. Christian's a nice guy, but finishing fifth in the Tour de France? Come on!""


And why is that Contadors problem now?


----------



## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

A lot of what happens tomorrow will depend on what Lance has to say to Conti after his announcement this afternoon.


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_Bruyneel would never let him do anything else._

If I was AC, Bruyneel could bite my shiny yellow ass; It's not LA time anymore, and his standing as a DS is only good while he's got the best on his team...


----------



## unai (Oct 10, 2003)

Dan Gerous said:


> I think Lance has shown all Tour long that he's not what he used to be. He wont beat Andy Schleck on the Ventoux, he may even lose more time. Lance will worry more about Wiggins who's just a few seconds down, he'll mark him to keep his GC place... Contador will mark anyone, Schlecks, Wiggins, Nibali, maybe even Lance and Klöden. Astana pissed him off and he clearly showed them that he could win the Tour without any of their help...




Finally, I totally agreed. Astana was set up for a successful Lance come back, Contador spoiled the plan!


----------



## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

From everything I've seen AC is an ass... He's gone against the team plans and hurt his own team mates. He's not riding with Lance or Johan next year and all he cares about is himself...


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_gone against the team plans _

...which were to win the Tour?

_hurt his own team mates._

Boo Hoo, they'll get paid anyway, and their job is to help him win, not hold his hand on the podium.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

olr1 said:


> _gone against the team plans _
> 
> ...which were to win the Tour?
> 
> ...


Yes
The concept of captain and helpers seems to have flown over the head of quite a few people.


----------



## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

francois said:


> Yes, he should attack at Ventoux, win the stage, gain time on his rivals, become a Ventoux legend and secure the yellow jersey.
> 
> If that's a stupid pointless move and something he doesn't need to do, then I don't know what true racing is.
> 
> ...


No hate. Immense talent, but has shown himself to be a just a bit impetuous. 

There'd be more than some argument (JB certainly takes a different view) that you don't know what true racing is. He doesn't need the time, the jersey is already secured unless he does something stupid and risky. He's already shown that he can mark anyone, and he's already got plenty of time for mishaps on such a stage. 

For the stage win? OK, maybe. But that's more a last few km's attack. I was thinking more an early charge, try to 'dominate' and be a 'legend' sort of thing. Watch Someone (anyone) grab his wheel and not let go until he gets sense or blows. That sort of thing. A bold, legendary move could backfire and give the Schleks and opening. 

Then there's the whole Simpson sort of legend. Not sayin', just sayin.


----------



## dcp_nz (Jun 20, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> It actually will be _very very _simple tactics. AC will sit on Andy's wheel, Armstrong and Kloden on Frank's. All the pressure will be on Frank and Wiggo to make time- a quick glance at the leader board times will show that.
> 
> Prediction: Wiggo can't drop Frank, Armstrong or Kloden and finishes off the podium- Garmin gets nothing again for the entire tour and prays the Wiggo to Sky rumors are untrue. Frank tries attacking on the Ventoux and gets nothing in the end. Overall the top 6 stay basically the same.


BINGO!!!

But I think Frank can drop Armstrong, Kloden and Wiggo.
Can he get 35 seconds - maybe.

Contador will want to win the stage and go down with Merckx and Pantani as Ventoux stage winners.

He definitely ain't working for Armstrong.

I'm calling Contador and two Schlecks on the podium in Paris.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Ill say this that after blowing up Astanas chance for a 1-2-3 finish if AC unfortunatly goes down or bonks Id be surprised if LA or Kloden helps him. Astana could lose it if this scenario plays out. LA seems to be happy with either 2nd or 3rd but if AC gives him an opportunity believe me LA will take it away from him. AC knows this. I have a gut feeling that AC will blow the entire field away. I think he will want to put the final nail by winning Ventoux and the TDF. What better way to show your dominance adn that you never really needed your team. He kept saying as much a few times. He is that scarry good that it almost seems like he doesnt need team mates.


----------



## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

*My predictions for Ventoux*

I don't think Wiggins will be able to gap Armstrong or Kloden. In fact, I think the opposite will happen - both Armstrong and Kloden will put time into Wiggins.

I think the real battle will be between Armstrong/Kloden and Frank Schleck. A third place finish is a very real possibility for Frank, especially with Andy at his side. I'm not sure Armstrong and Kloden can hang with those two on Ventoux. Frank won't have to set tempo/pace for Andy at this juncture.

Of course, all bets are off if Armstrong has been holding back - as some are suggesting. You have to acknowledge the fact that he has lost a fair amount of time because he's missed some breaks, and chasing would not have helped the team in those situations. I think his ITT today was telling, in that he looks to be flirting dangerously with his limits. He seemed pretty hammered at the end of the last mtn top yesterday. He looked a little clumsy and out of rhythm. I get that way all the time on climbs, but I'm just not used to seeing Lance look like that.

And what will Kloden's role be on Ventoux? I'll be upset if Lance cracks and Kloden doesn't charge (if he appears able).


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Buzzard said:


> I don't think Wiggins will be able to gap Armstrong or Kloden. In fact, I think the opposite will happen - both Armstrong and Kloden will put time into Wiggins.
> 
> I think the real battle will be between Armstrong/Kloden and Frank Schleck. A third place finish is a very real possibility for Frank, especially with Andy at his side. I'm not sure Armstrong and Kloden can hang with those two on Ventoux. Frank won't have to set tempo/pace for Andy at this juncture.
> 
> ...


If Lance cracks he will tell Kloden to go ahead like he did on Verbier. No need to cost them both a possible podium.


----------



## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

I find it funny that the roadbikereview collective give Evans crap because he doesn't attack, then give Contador crap because he attacks just because he can... 

Sure Contador doesn't 'need' to attack but hey, he can! I would too if I was him, that's what winners do. He's not there to pull old guys to help them secure a lower step of the podium, he's there to win. Attacks make racing interesting why should he just wait for Lance?


----------



## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> From everything I've seen AC is an ass... all he cares about is himself...


wow, you must not have seen much and misinterpreted what little you have seen. From all of his untranslated interviews and all of the race and press coverage here in Europe, Alberto seems like a genuinely nice guy - he just likes to win and since he is clearly the dominant rider on his team, that's what he gets paid to do.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Dan Gerous said:


> I find it funny that the roadbikereview collective give Evans crap because he doesn't attack, then give Contador crap because he attacks just because he can...
> 
> Sure Contador doesn't 'need' to attack but hey, he can! I would too if I was him, that's what winners do. He's not there to pull old guys to help them secure a lower step of the podium, he's there to win. Attacks make racing interesting why should he just wait for Lance?


Are you serious? Thats the whole point of the team especially if you have 4 GC threats. 3 weeks is a long time for you to repeatedly attack and not have teammates to pull you when you tire. They could have gotten 1-2-3 with AC getting the win. Maybe AC needs to be on his own then. Why bother with a team. Would that make you happy?


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

Buzzard said:


> I don't think Wiggins will be able to gap Armstrong or Kloden. In fact, I think the opposite will happen - both Armstrong and Kloden will put time into Wiggins.
> 
> I think the real battle will be between Armstrong/Kloden and Frank Schleck. A third place finish is a very real possibility for Frank, especially with Andy at his side. I'm not sure Armstrong and Kloden can hang with those two on Ventoux. Frank won't have to set tempo/pace for Andy at this juncture.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.

Wiggins is going to suck wheel and hopes something shakes out in his favor. He's the weakest and needs to attack. And the chances of him attacking and out riding Kloden/Lance/Frank is slim. Any one of them should be able to mark him. He's a long shot for 3rd.

Kloden is in the worst spot. Lance is a higher priority on the team....not to mention he's placed higher in the GC. So it's not likely he can attack because it'd be against his own teammate. So Kloden is in a tough spot. He could do well...but probably won't get to attack. Worse is he may be forced to set tempo for Lance/Contador and get used up on the lower slopes.

To me its Frank and Lance. Both are riding well. Slight nod towards Frank. Both have had to do team duties so they'll be free to duke it out now. Should be interesting.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

*My scenario for the stage*

Frank buries himself in a last desperate attempt to separate Andy from Contador. He fails.
Andy and Contador ride away from the rest of the group. Contador flies with one or two kilometers to go. Sastre comes flying by at the finish to take the stage! Just kidding, Contador basks in glory as the master of Ventoux and the Tour. Third place is more difficult. Frank fades after his effort for his brother, Wiggens tries to attack and is pulled back. Lance counters, digs into his suitcase of courage and rides away from Klöden and Wiggens to secure the third step on the podium. Klöden takes fourth (for the stage and the tour).


----------



## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Snakebitten said:


> Are you serious? Thats the whole point of the team especially if you have 4 GC threats. 3 weeks is a long time for you to repeatedly attack and not have teammates to pull you when you tire. They could have gotten 1-2-3 with AC getting the win. Maybe AC needs to be on his own then. Why bother with a team. Would that make you happy?


Apparently you don't really understand the team concept.

Under Lance EVERYONE rode for him. There was ONE leader. That's it.

The reason you bother with a team is that the team is there to support their leader. Period.


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

TmaxR said:


> Frank buries himself in a last desperate attempt to separate Andy from Contador.


I would love to see that! I just like the way those boys ride. With all the Lance/Contador drama I have to say it was nice watching those two work together. Frank burying himself for Andy. I'd love to see them give it one more shot!


----------



## NextTime (Oct 13, 2007)

My thoughts:

1. Contador does nothing for LA that would have the slightest chance of hurting his GC chances. The yellow jersey is the highest prize in cycling - this just makes sense. Contador - if he's listening to Bruyneel - plays it conservative and does not attack. He can't afford to blow his engine. All he has to do is ride wheels and the jersey is his.

2. No way that Andy can beat Contador, so Andy rides for Frank. When Andy attacks Contador follows. When Frank attacks, LA will follow if he can. Kloden too.

3. Will LA attack early on Ventoux? Yes, but only if he feels it in his legs and the Schlecks are having an off day.


----------



## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> Apparently you don't really understand the team concept.
> 
> Under Lance EVERYONE rode for him. There was ONE leader. That's it.
> 
> The reason you bother with a team is that the team is there to support their leader. Period.


Well, it depends on the team. That is certainly the strategy for some teams, but not for others. Columbia HTC, for example, rides with the strategy of winning as many stages as possible and achieving a high score in the team rankings. 

I can certainly see the rationale behind a team trying to get other members on the podium if one of them already has a comfortable grip on the yellow jersey, or to help them get a big stage win. Armstrong tried to do that for Landis remember, and only took the stage when Landis didn't have the legs.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> Apparently you don't really understand the team concept.
> 
> Under Lance EVERYONE rode for him. There was ONE leader. That's it.
> 
> The reason you bother with a team is that the team is there to support their leader. Period.


Apparently you dont understand that Astana this year had chance at a 1-2-3 podium and could have taken 4th. It was a unique situation. No reason AC wouldnt have won the TDF and all his team mates come in behind him. No one can stay with him so his win is not in jepardy. Whats better for a team than a TDF win? Having more than 1 podium spot. AC antics possibly cost Astana a shot at history. This wasnt an ordinary team.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Snakebitten said:


> No one can stay with him so his win is not in jepardy. .


Until he has to spend the night on the crapper and was fatigued the next day. Until he crashes. Lot's of things can happen, leaving the win to chance is foolish at best.


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Buzzard said:


> Of course, all bets are off if Armstrong has been holding back - as some are suggesting.


I think that it's funny that, for Lance fanbois (not that you're one), hope always springs eternal.

'Playing possum'? 'Holding back'? C'mon now. Lance has been balls (ball?) to the wall throughout, he just got beat by a better rider. Two, actually.

If he can make the podium in Paree though that's quite a feat, considering the layoff and his age. Nothing to feel bad about at all.
.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Lance's definition of team during his tour run - one leader, everyone on the team sacrifices for the leader. Lance's definition of team during his comeback - it's good to have two leaders, we'll sort out who the strongest rider is on the road. Funny how the definition changes to whatever is best for Lance, regardless of AC's accomplishments for the team over the previous couple of years. 

As for Ventoux - I think it looks a lot like Wednesday's stage. AC, and the Schlek boys up the road with Kloden hanging on. LA marking Wiggins, not to be a good teammate since AC pretty much has this wrapped up and LA will have more freedom, but because he can't hang with the other 3. LA doing his best to hold onto the podium, but not succeeding.

The interesting part is 3rd place, can Kloden hang on, or do the brothers shell him?


----------



## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> Apparently you don't really understand the team concept.
> 
> Under Lance EVERYONE rode for him. There was ONE leader. That's it.
> 
> The reason you bother with a team is that the team is there to support their leader. Period.


Yep. Having 4 GC threats in one team doesn't mean they should finish 1-2-3-4 but make sure that one wins, the road decides who's number one then the focus shifts to help the strongest win. With such strong teamates, you have more power to deliver the strongest to the win.

The reason people see something bad in Contador's attacks is because Lance was shelled. A team usually work for it's leader and Astana have not shown much support for Contador, who should have been the leader from the start. He more than proved he should have been and should have got the support of the team he deserves. Lucky for him, he is stronger alone than Lance with the team. Sure Lance's fans are deceived that he wasn't as strong as they thought he would be but that's bike racing and that doesn't mean the deserved yellow jersey wearer should lose time, even if he had 15 minutes on 2nd, to help Lance.

JB and Lance say things to journalists like the only goal is that the team gets the yellow jersey. Contador made sure they did. He was the favorite, he was told he was the number one of the team and that his job was to win the race, Astana didn't really commit to it through him so he did what he had to do. Chapeau to Contador. I don't really like him all that much but he raced very well!


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

+1.

If you are going to make a comeback, do it with grace, with a little bit of class, not like a grumpy old man.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Buzzard said:


> Of course, all bets are off if Armstrong has been holding back - as some are suggesting/QUOTE]
> 
> There's an old saying - past performance is a good indicator of future performance. in all the important phases of this tour (mtn stages and TT's) LA has been unable to threaten the leaders. I'm betting that string continues.
> 
> ...


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Well maybe I stand corrected. But it would have been nice to see a 1-4 finish for Astana.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Snakebitten said:


> Well maybe I stand corrected. But it would have been nice to see a 1-4 finish for Astana.


No one has been corrected. 

We're all just guessing based on what we'd like to see happen and our biases for or against certain riders. That's all, in the end, most of us will be wrong.


----------



## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

godot said:


> We're all just guessing based on what we'd like to see happen and our biases for or against certain riders. That's all, in the end, most of us will be wrong.


There is much truth in this statement.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Snakebitten said:


> Apparently you dont understand that Astana this year had chance at a 1-2-3 podium and could have taken 4th. It was a unique situation. No reason AC wouldnt have won the TDF and all his team mates come in behind him. No one can stay with him so his win is not in jepardy. Whats better for a team than a TDF win? Having more than 1 podium spot. AC antics possibly cost Astana a shot at history. This wasnt an ordinary team.


This makes sense except for the inarguable fact that neither Lance nor Kloeden has shown -even once - that they can ride up hills with the Schlecks (Maybe - MAYBE they could have hung with Frank, but not a chance with Andy). 
And I'm not sure who you had slotted in for fourth place, unless it's Levi and you're blaming AC's attacks for the crash that took him out on a flat stage.

Ignore those two facts, though, and you're right in that thing, so job well done.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

jptaylorsg said:


> This makes sense except for the inarguable fact that neither Lance nor Kloeden has shown -even once - that they can ride up hills with the Schlecks (Maybe - MAYBE they could have hung with Frank, but not a chance with Andy).
> And I'm not sure who you had slotted in for fourth place, unless it's Levi and you're blaming AC's attacks for the crash that took him out on a flat stage.
> 
> Ignore those two facts, though, and you're right in that thing, so job well done.


LOL....Not sure how to take this post. Buuuut the "antics" Im refering to was the pull that dropped Kloden. It was unnessessary and not according to team tactics from the DS. That move is what I feel cost Astana that chance at podiuming 1-3 or 1-4 at that point. Or at least have 2 guys on the podium. Ventoux would have ultimately determined it but up until than AC move changed the game for AStana instead of another team or the climbs. Not good if yo uhave to fight all that an a team mate too.

Really dont know how you read Levi's crash into what I wrote but I guess I see which side of the fence you are on. You are really reaching with that one. Its pretty obvious that Kloden had a good shot at 4th before AC took it upon himself to attack. Sometimes the number one looks out for his domestiques a la F. Schleck winning yesterdays stage and moving him up the GC. Im just saying the move cost the team so it wasnt a good move imho especially since it wasnt remotely necessary.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Snakebitten said:


> That move is what I feel cost Astana that chance at podiuming 1-3 or 1-4. Or at least have 2 guys on the podium.


Kloden would have gotten dropped regardless. Kloden and Armstrong cost themselves podium spots, not Contador.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Snakebitten said:


> LOL....Not sure how to take this post. Buuuut the "antics" Im refering to was the pull that dropped Kloden. It was unnessessary and not according to team tactics from the DS. That move is what I feel cost Astana that chance at podiuming 1-3 or 1-4 at that point. Or at least have 2 guys on the podium. Ventoux would have ultimately determined it but up until than AC move changed the game for AStana instead of another team or the climbs. Not good if yo uhave to fight all that an a team mate too.
> 
> Really dont know how you read Levi's crash into what I wrote but I guess I see which side of the fence you are on. You are really reaching with that one. Its pretty obvious that Kloden had a good shot at 4th before AC took it upon himself to attack. Sometimes the number one looks out for his domestiques a la F. Schleck winning yesterdays stage and moving him up the GC. Im just saying the move cost the team so it wasnt a good move imho especially since it wasnt remotely necessary.


You said Astana had a chance at a 1-2-3 finish and could have taken 4th. By my count, that's four riders. I was just wondering who the 4th rider was, and I assumed you meant Levi. Since AC is the problem by your estimation, and Levi crashed out, I was looking for ways to blame Levi's crash on him.

Hell, saying 1-4 is assuming 4 Astana riders, too, isn't it? Unless you meant 3 of the top 4, which is what you should have said if that's what you meant.


----------



## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

dfltroll said:


> Contador needs to ask himself "What would Hinault do?"


Hinault said he's coming out of retirement and going to race the Tour again after seeing Lance's results this year. So is Indurain.  





























:thumbsup:


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

francois said:


> Contador would be an idiot to work for anybody. Nor should we expect it.
> 
> He is the leader and everybody works for him. He should pummel everyone and get a lead of 10 minutes as a safety net for all mechanicals, stumbles and all the internet forum haters.
> 
> ...


Better question is: will Andy work for Frank?


----------



## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

Snakebitten said:


> LOL....Not sure how to take this post. Buuuut the "antics" Im refering to was the pull that dropped Kloden. It was unnessessary and not according to team tactics from the DS. That move is what I feel cost Astana that chance at podiuming 1-3 or 1-4 at that point. Or at least have 2 guys on the podium. Ventoux would have ultimately determined it but up until than AC move changed the game for AStana instead of another team or the climbs. Not good if yo uhave to fight all that an a team mate too.
> 
> Really dont know how you read Levi's crash into what I wrote but I guess I see which side of the fence you are on. You are really reaching with that one. Its pretty obvious that Kloden had a good shot at 4th before AC took it upon himself to attack. Sometimes the number one looks out for his domestiques a la F. Schleck winning yesterdays stage and moving him up the GC. Im just saying the move cost the team so it wasnt a good move imho especially since it wasnt remotely necessary.



True, but I'm betting if it was Armstrong instead of Contador in this position people would praise him for establishing his alpha-male position in the peloton.

I miss the days where riders as Merckx just took everything in reach, no gifts, just pure raw ambition.


----------



## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

I agree that Contador's attack probably upset Bruyneel's plans--boneheaded, since it blew of Kloeden and left Contador exposed to possible mechanical or other problems. Two on one is never a good situation, esp. when the two are the Schlecks...

It occurs to me that Lance is more of a team rider than people give him credit for--it is just possible that his job was to mark Wiggo & then blow him off when he got the chance--you can imagine Wiggo thinking 'Well I'm not doing so badly because Lance is still here,' then WHAM! 

Both times that Lance has uncorked on the climbs the riders that he'e been with have been unable to stay with him & I'm thinking that this was part of Bruyneel's plan--lull people into a false sense of Lance's potential, & then let him uncork & try to catch up as much as possible--once he has done penance by not pace-making with the followers.

When Lance was chasing it really looked like he slowed down once he was joined by Nibali--and that whole switch across the road to Kloeden was a classic call to arms--if Kloeden hadn't been out of gas at that point, I think the two Astana riders would have blown off Nibali and tried to repair some of the damage that Contador caused by his acceleration. 

All Contador had to do was mark the Schlecks--clearly he was more than capable--there was no need to try to blow them off. Then Kloeden stays, the gap is smaller, the four-up finish leaves the GC more in play, protects Contador against mechanical or other problems (even leaves the possibility of an Astana rider in the top three if Contador crashes) & there is some possibility that Lance finishes closer (and Wiggo is still neutralized which I think was one of Bruyneel's main objectives for the day).

As far as the Ventoux--Lance has nothing to lose & Contador has a pretty solid lead. If I were Bruyneel, I'd let the big dog run & let Lance go for it...If that takes Contador doing some soft-shoe misdirection in the bunch then he should do it.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Better question is: will Andy work for Frank?


Or will Contador work for Frank as a final f you to Johan and Lance.

No way this happens but it would be fun on a few of fronts
1 - watching Roll, Liggett and Sherwen's heads explode and/or spontaneously combust
2 - all the whining that would ensue on RBR, velonews, etc
3 - sets up another great soap opera for the 2010 tour

As I said, no way this happens, but it would be fun.


----------



## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

Nope. He will too busy doing his thing. Lance is going to be on his own with the Schlecks.


----------



## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

My analysis:

1. Andy Schleck will try to crack Contador. A stage win over the yellow jersey is a nice consolation prize and this strategy maintains his second place finish. Schleck may win the stage but he won't make up over 4 minutes on Contador even if Contador hits a spectator, which requires a bike change, and then runs over a dog, which requires a second bike change. That battle will be exciting.

2. The alliance on the road will be Wiggins and Frank Schleck vs Armstrong and Kloden. Wiggins and Schleck will be trying to crack Armstrong to get the spot on the podium but Kloden is the ace in the hole. Kloden will take off if Armstrong does crack, otherwise he will be the loyal teammate pulling LA back up to Schleck. (Who is more in need of gainful employment in the future--Kloden or Armstrong? Who will be suggesting the staffing of the new RadioShaft team?)

So the question is whether Armstrong can hang with Wiggins and Schleck to a null difference at the top. All 3 riders looked shellacked at the end of the ITT. I think that Armstrong can do it but I wouldn't bet anything of importance.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Im thinking tommorow is the last "team tactics" day for Astana. Ventoux will be every man for himself imho. Not much of a "team" feel left at Astana. The Schlecks may set the pace and people will drop like flys except for AC of course and just maybe LA and Klodin. Eitherway Astana will win so I will be happy. I think AC easily deserves the win despite some questionable, to me, decissions he made. No way he works for Lance.


----------



## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Swish said:


> True, but I'm betting if it was Armstrong instead of Contador in this position people would praise him for establishing his alpha-male position in the peloton.
> 
> I miss the days where riders as Merckx just took everything in reach, no gifts, just pure raw ambition.


These are the days, except Contador is doing it, and it's sticking in the craw of all the Lance fans.  

Alberto is a cannibal, just like Eddie, and it is fun to watch.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> These are the days, except Contador is doing it, *and it's sticking in the craw of all the Lance fans. *
> 
> Alberto is a cannibal, just like Eddie, and it is fun to watch.


Hence your avatar lol  ....


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

den bakker said:


> Until he has to spend the night on the crapper and was fatigued the next day. Until he crashes. Lot's of things can happen, leaving the win to chance is foolish at best.


I agree. If I were Contador, I would also want people to remember that I dominated the hell out of the Tour, not just gained a little of time and played it safe for the remaining part of the Tour. EVen on this forum people say: oh yeah, Contador, but he doesn't win his Tours by a large margin.

Honestly, I don't think Contador should have been nursing Kloden or Armstrong to podium. If they can remain protected and it doesn't hurt his chances too much, fine. But if they crack in the mountains (which is what happened!), well, maybe the podium is not for them.

On Saturday I want Contador ride like the team leader that he is, not like a domestique for his majesty Armstrong. That's Popo's job.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Foot of Ventoux, Contador turns to Armstrong and says: 

"Where is my water, BEEEYOTCH?"


----------



## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Snakebitten said:


> Hence your avatar lol  ....


Don't be bitter.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Spunout said:


> Foot of Ventoux, Contador turns to Armstrong and says:
> 
> "Where is my water, BEEEYOTCH?"


LOL, good one!


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> Don't be bitter.


LOL.....Never that. The best man will win. Believe it or not Im a fan of both for very different reasons. Conty deserves to win. I got a slight problem with his percieved motive/tactics on to his team mates but that is a far cry from being a Lance jockey or an AC hater 

It will be bittersweet for me if they BOTH dont podium.


----------



## tbgtbg (Mar 13, 2009)

I think Wiggins may turn out to be a non-issue. I guess his leg cramped during the ITT today... That could be a problem for the next day or two. As others have suggested, Andy helps Frank get 3rd, as 1st is out of his (Andy's) reach. It will be interesting if LA and Kloden can hang on, for AC, it's a ride in the park.


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

tbgtbg said:


> I think Wiggins may turn out to be a non-issue. I guess his leg cramped during the ITT today... That could be a problem for the next day or two. As others have suggested, Andy helps Frank get 3rd, as 1st is out of his (Andy's) reach. It will be interesting if LA and Kloden can hang on, for AC, it's a ride in the park.


My guess...

It won't be Kloden's job to hang on. There is no way both Armstrong and Kloden will be on the podium, so Kloden will be working for the team until he cracks. That's his job. I think Contador may attack to go for the stage win, which means both he and Armstrong will use Kloden until he pops. Armstrong will definitely need him and I think it still won't be enough.

The only way Kloden goes for the podium would be if one of the top three has a disastrous stage before Kloden has used himself up in service to his team.


----------



## jecjec81 (Jan 28, 2008)

AC said in his interview that he will try to help Lance keep his position.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/reaction-from-stage-18

"At Mont Ventoux there are others who have to attack; I will try to help Armstrong keep his position on the podium and if Klöden also obtains it, much better.

"I have heard that he [Armstrong] has a project for the future, but I want to be concentrate on the race until Paris. Only then will the moment come to think about my future and that of the team."


----------



## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

jecjec81 said:


> Contador: "I have heard that he [Armstrong] has a project for the future, but I want to be concentrate on the race until Paris. Only then will the moment come to think about my future and that of the team."


Sounds like some not-so-subtle needling of Lance. As in, "Lance is already looking past Astana and promoting his new team even before the Tour is over, I'm the better team player 'cuz I don't do that."

Behind the scenes, it must be just _frosty_ among the Astanas.  
.


----------



## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

pretender said:


> Kloden would have gotten dropped regardless. Kloden and Armstrong cost themselves podium spots, not Contador.


Please tell us how it is you know that Kloden gets dropped regardless.

We will never know if Kloden would have been dropped had Contador not attacked. Conversely, we cannot know that he would have been able to stay on their wheels without the attack. The only thing we do know is that Kloden was holding on until the attack.


----------



## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

wake up Conti haters, an attack is not needless especially if it creates a gap between you and your rivals.


----------



## tecnosabba (Jan 10, 2007)

1. I do not think Andy will commit suicide by trying to gain over 4 minutes on Contador to get top spot in GC, wasting himself so much as to endanger his 2nd position in the overall

2. I think Andy will help Frank to get the 3rd podium spot.

http://www.wort.lu/wort/web/sport/artikel/34627/der-dritte-rang-ist-nun-das-ziel.php

"Der dritte Rang ist nun das Ziel" means "The 3rd spot is the goal now"


"_Wir werden angreifen und alles riskieren. Dabei werde ich mich voll in den Dienst meines Bruder stellen, da ich nichts zu verlieren habe. Mein Vorsprung auf die Verfolger sollte groß genug sein und vorne ist Alberto (Contador) einfach zu weit weg. Er müsste schon vollkommen einbrechen und daran glaube ich eher nicht. Wir werden uns auf die Eroberung des dritten Platzes für Fränk konzentrieren._"

That's Andy saying : "We will attack and risk it all. I will be at the complete service of my brother Frank, since I have nothing to lose. My advantage over the chasers should be consistent enough, and Alberto is too far away. I do not think he will have a complete breakdown [which is the only possibility for me to win the Tour]. We will concentrate ourselves on conquering 3rd spot for Fränk"

3. I do not believe BW, AK or LA can match the Schlecks' teamwork on the Ventoux, and 35 seconds is nothing on such a climb.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

tecnosabba said:


> 1. I do not think Andy will commit suicide by trying to gain over 4 minutes on Contador to get top spot in GC, wasting himself so much as to endanger his 2nd position in the overall


LMAO! He will attack. Saving second with 2 minutes advantage? Go watch a bicycle race sometime. 

There are no seconds. You are first loser.


----------



## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

gimme a break. AC has been thinking of his future, and only of his future since his first attack on Verbier. for him to try and be a "team player" now, is just pro-speak, canned buzz phrases. doesn't matter. AC likely has an out-clause in his astana contract based on Mgmt leaving. he will goto spain(Santander/renault) and make 10mm euro's next year. that said, I DO think that if the 2 schlecks, AC and LA are on ventoux together, and LA manages a solo attack, AC will do the "team thing" and block the schlecks. he would become a frickin hero for doing that. any other scenario, and AC is taking care of AC


----------



## Snakebit (Mar 18, 2002)

Spunout said:


> No. He'll mark Andy, but LA is going to have to go up the road by himself.
> 
> You don't mess around with the maillot jaune 'pacing' teammates.


I agree. That is not his job but there will be help for Lance from the team overall. Lance is going to have to have a spectacular ride pretty much on his own at the critical part of the race. He will have to get on Andy or Frank himself and stick and then kick.


----------



## tecnosabba (Jan 10, 2007)

Spunout said:


> LMAO! He will attack. Saving second with 2 minutes advantage? Go watch a bicycle race sometime.
> 
> There are no seconds. You are first loser.



Hey, take it easy. I was just quoting AS...and I happen to agree with him, simply because, from what I have seen until now, Andy is not (yet) on AC's level, let alone capable of wrecking him.

Second spot in the TdF, at 24, cannot be compared to 2nd spot in a parking lot crit, so yes, I thik Andy will gladly accept to be "only" second, and he'll definitely concentrate on helping Frank to get third.

Now, if I happen to be wrong, and Andy kicks ass on the Ventoux and gets yellow, so be it. I wouldn't mind, on the contrary.

BTW, for the non-native English speaker that I am, what does LMAO mean ?


----------



## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

Not a chance. To me Contador's attack was to help the Schlecks get onto the podium, and knock Lance off. He may have been tapping Fank on the back to indicate he wouldn't contest the sprint, but I also think he wanted to say something like 'let's put an end to the 'age of Armstrong'.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

How many teammates did Lance help onto the podium in 99-05?


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

The Weasel said:


> Not a chance. To me Contador's attack was to help the Schlecks get onto the podium, and knock Lance off. He may have been tapping Fank on the back to indicate he wouldn't contest the sprint, but I also think he wanted to say something like 'let's put an end to the 'age of Armstrong'.


Thats a load of crap Chrismas Poo


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_Not a chance. To me Contador's attack was to help the Schlecks get onto the podium, and knock Lance off. He may have been tapping Fank on the back to indicate he wouldn't contest the sprint, but I also think he wanted to say something like 'let's put an end to the 'age of Armstrong'._

You have a vivid imagination.


----------



## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> How many teammates did Lance help onto the podium in 99-05?


   ..


----------



## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

Frank Schleck is only 38 seconds behind LA.

My prediction - repeat of Wednesday. The Schleck's will attack, AC will be the only one that can go with them, and the 3 of them will cross the finish line together 2 plus minutes ahead of everyone else with AC, AS & FS being the podium.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know if Lance will do well or not but I'm willing to bet he digs deeper than usual for this stage.. As he's said.. he has unfinished business on this mountain. He very well might surprise everyone and take the win. I Hope he is at least able to maintain his lead...


----------



## moonstation2000 (Sep 5, 2008)

It's obvious that LA and AK have to fight against the shlecks and wiggins, but seriously AC and the schlecks should be out in front. 

The real battle is AK vs LA. I think AK is stronger as he's lower on the team but still right there in position with LA. He has been able to hang with the schlecks longer - LA will have to run him into the ground first, then take off.

I think LA will use AK to tire wiggins out and hope that AK will tire too. Worst thing for LA is that AK takes off with the schlecks and AC again and manages to hang on this time!


If I were AC, I'd be supporting whoever had a chance to beat LA at this point. They will be enemies next year, and realistically have been since LA joined the team. Obviously he will try to keep his standing at all costs and won't spend time pacing anyone, but maybe he'll be a little easier on AK if AK manages to keep up this time!


----------



## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_He very well might surprise everyone and take the win._

Faith can only *move* mountains, not get up them faster...


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

sbindra said:


> My prediction - repeat of Wednesday. The Schleck's will attack, AC will be the only one that can go with them, and the 3 of them will cross the finish line together 2 plus minutes ahead of everyone else with AC, AS & FS being the podium.


Except that AC will continue attacking and solo to victory with nobody else in the camera frame.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

olr1 said:


> Faith can only *move* mountains, not get up them faster...


LOL well put. Hope springs eternal among the deluded.


----------



## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

pretender said:


> Except that AC will continue attacking and solo to victory with nobody else in the camera frame.


This is what I expect as well. Actually, this could even be the best (though possibly unintended) thing for Astana: Schlecks attack, can't shed Contador, Contador counters, Shlecks try desperately to follow - crack completely, drift off down the mountain, totally spent. 

Don't think that will happen, at least with Andy. If he realizes he is reaching his limit and can't follow Contador, he will throttle back and protect his position.

Whatever happens, it will be a terrific stage.


----------



## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

> Foot of Ventoux, Contador turns to Armstrong and says:
> 
> "Where is my water, BEEEYOTCH?"


I'm a Lance fan and only slowly warming up to AC, but this made me laugh and laugh and laugh.

Lance will go for it but after reading more and more about the results of the last few days, I predict Contador solos to victory on Ventoux.


----------



## moonstation2000 (Sep 5, 2008)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> I don't know if Lance will do well or not but I'm willing to bet he digs deeper than usual for this stage.. As he's said.. he has unfinished business on this mountain. He very well might surprise everyone and take the win. I Hope he is at least able to maintain his lead...



I'm guessing he was already digging deeper in the ITT and look where that got him. I don't see him keeping up with the Schlecks in their playground.

If he does I'll be impressed.


----------



## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

If Contador works for Armstrong, he will lose the Jersey as the contendors ride up the road.


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

The Schlecks will attack several times and then Conti will get ticked off and will put the final nail into all them with the last attack of the day at 3k to go. He knows he has about 15-20 mins at max so he just hangs on until then. Sastre, Nibali, Lance are my dark horses.


----------



## squadra (May 20, 2009)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> I don't know if Lance will do well or not but I'm willing to bet he digs deeper than usual for this stage.. _*As he's said.. he has unfinished business on this mountain.*_ He very well might surprise everyone and take the win. I Hope he is at least able to maintain his lead...


Bingo! 
You hit the nail right on the head.
Moreau beating LA in the ITT yesterday? Thats never happened, and they are essentially the same age, so either LA now totally sucks at ITT, OR, he was holding something back.....for tomorrow. Will it be "something special", or something not so special, theres the question.
One things for sure, he will empty the tank on Ventoux. If by some miracle he takes the stage, any takers that he will dedicate the stage victory to Marco?  
Going to be great fun.


----------



## pchrosto (Feb 12, 2008)

danl1 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Conti attacks at some point. Stupid pointless move - just his style.
> 
> Funner question: Does lance give a wheel when he flats?


You mean like the move Armstrong made in 2000? chasing pantani down who was more than 10mins down on GC and his nearest rival ullrich who was down over 4mins? what Armstrong did was 'consolidate his margin', when Contador does it it's stupid and pointless. I see how it works now.


----------



## DM_ARCH (Feb 23, 2007)

The ITT proved Lance is running out of gas, because we all know he gave it everything because he expected to gain time there. 

Ventoux will definitely sort out everything, and although I want Lance to do well, at this pint, I think it will be a miracle if he makes up much time and will be doing well to not lose his current spot. 

There's going to be so many people throwing down all they got in a last ditch effort. This is going to be amazing.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

The more I absorb the last 2 3/4 weeks I just dont see AC allowing anyone to beat him on Ventoux. He is just as determined as LA to win it but he has the clear physical advantage. Everyone else looks worn except AC. AC will dominate Ventoux. Why would he not just lay waste to the field on the last day and put his stamp on this TDF? What would he be saving anything for? He crushes LA and the Schlecks and establishes himself as THE MAN without a doubt if he dominates one of the hardest stages in the TDF. Plus he knows LA wants it bad Id be surprised if he "let" anyone else win this final stage. I would like LA to get this stage since its the one that eluded him but I dont see it happening with the assassin at large.


----------



## pchrosto (Feb 12, 2008)

i'm rooting for the schleck bros to take 1-2 but doubt contador will crack at this point. 

astana was never a "team" this tour, up until this comeback they employed the same strategy for contador that they used for lance in years past. the only people that worked for contador were rast, popo, muravyev, zubeldia and paulinho. other than these true domestiques i haven't really seen any of the others pacing contador as had been done for lance in his past wins.

if they were truly committed to supporting the best rider on the team you would have seen bruyneel put kloden out front first drive the pace and redline himself, then levi would do the same, then lance would do the same and contador would have had an easy tour. instead what happened was contador had to chase down attacks on his own because astana let other teams dictate the pace on the major climbs in hopes of a grand 1-2-3 finish in paris. and i don't think contador appreciated the complete reversal of bruyneel's past game plans.

not once did levi, lance or kloden sacrifice themselves for contador, like you saw voigt, cancellara, the sorensen brothers and frank doing for andy. if you argue that sitting on a wheel is being a good teammate then you don't have any concept of the complete sacrifice the saxo-band riders made for their team leader. astana just figured he could win it on his own. they were lucky cause it turns out they were probably right. if they worked for him like they did for lance in tours past contador would be up 15mins in GC.


----------



## C6Rider (Nov 15, 2008)

*Not a chance*

There is no way that Alberto will work for Lance...why should he risk his yellow jersey to him up the mountain. If the roles were reversed, I doubt that there would be such a controversy.

Alberto always was the leader...everyone else (including Lance) works for him.


----------



## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

squadra said:


> Moreau beating LA in the ITT yesterday? Thats never happened, and they are essentially the same age, so either LA now totally sucks at ITT, OR, he was holding something back.....for tomorrow.


Earth to squadra: Riders vying for a TdF podium spot don't hold anything back on an ITT.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

pchrosto said:


> i'm rooting for the schleck bros to take 1-2 but doubt contador will crack at this point.
> 
> astana was never a "team" this tour, up until this comeback they employed the same strategy for contador that they used for lance in years past. the only people that worked for contador were rast, popo, muravyev, zubeldia and paulinho. other than these true domestiques i haven't really seen any of the others pacing contador as had been done for lance in his past wins.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of what you said but I dont see what JB was trying to accomplish as some conspiracy against AC. JB tried to get a 1-2-3 finish because he had that deep of a team this year that could do it. 4 guys that could take care of themselves with real podium potential. Special circumstance imho. I dont think this tactic was to slight Contador in anyway like some believe. JB saw a chance to make history and he was on track to do it until circumstances out of his control [i.e. AC lol & Levi] ended that chance. He still has an outside chance to get 2 on the podium if F. Schleck bonks or cracks and LA doesnt. 

Dont know why everything having to do with LA and JB has to be nefarious in regards to AC. From everything Ive seen from JB decissions it certainly looked like his plan was to sweep the podium, NOT to make LA win it all at everyone elses expense. JB knew Conty didnt really need alot of help even Conty said he dont need the help.


----------



## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Well, whatever happens, Contador _said_ that he would help Armstrong on Ventoux if he can.

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/...ays-the-goal-is-for-brother-frank-to-join-him


----------



## pchrosto (Feb 12, 2008)

not really saying bruyneel and lance were out to get contador. but if you have a proven grand tour rider like contador you support him completely, not a dream of 1-2-3. lance had guys on his teams like landis, hamilton, heras that could have competed for podium spots also but it never crossed bruyneel or lance's mind to develop a strategy to get them there. they were told to sacrifice themselves for lance and the yellow with the hopes of maybe a stage win in return.

i think it proved a fairly boneheaded plan. if they controlled the race with their obvious power they could have had contador well in yellow (over 10mins) and ended up with stage wins for kloden and lance but now it looks unlikely because they're too high in GC for others to allow up the road. also they might not have had to use all their power to shred the field and still had 2 podium spots by saving one of the 3 riders.

instead contador is the bad guy because he wants yellow with the team's full support to get it and not the 1-2-3 plan. i feel for the guy a bit because i think he signed a contract with bruyneel thinking he's THE man and things changed.


----------



## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

pchrosto said:


> not really saying bruyneel and lance were out to get contador. but if you have a proven grand tour rider like contador you support him completely, not a dream of 1-2-3. lance had guys on his teams like landis, hamilton, heras that could have competed for podium spots also but it never crossed bruyneel or lance's mind to develop a strategy to get them there. they were told to sacrifice themselves for lance and the yellow with the hopes of maybe a stage win in return.
> 
> i think it proved a fairly boneheaded plan. if they controlled the race with their obvious power they could have had contador well in yellow (over 10mins) and ended up with stage wins for kloden and lance but now it looks unlikely because they're too high in GC for others to allow up the road. also they might not have had to use all their power to shred the field and still had 2 podium spots by saving one of the 3 riders.
> 
> instead contador is the bad guy because he wants yellow with the team's full support to get it and not the 1-2-3 plan. i feel for the guy a bit because i think he signed a contract with bruyneel thinking he's THE man and things changed.


This pretty much sums up my feelings as well.


----------



## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

So how is AC able to help? Andy attacks (with his brother) and AC follows with LA. the brothers continue to attack and the Astana duo lead by AC follow. When the time is right AC attacks, LA follows and the Schleks are broken. AC then pushes LA over the line for the win! I don't think so. Substitute LA for Andreas Kloden and this was wednesdays game plan.
More likely I think AS will be defending his 2nd spot rather than chasing AC. He has got 3/4 guys within catching distance behind him and AC is a loooong way ahead. I'm sure LA is a great poker player but all AS has to do is defend against LA and ignore everything else. LA's best help can only come from others behind him trouble is if any of them are to threaten AS they will have overtaken LA too.
I fear they might all ride up the Ventoux together with a mad dash for glory as they reach yke 1k kite.


----------



## DM_ARCH (Feb 23, 2007)

pchrosto said:


> not really saying bruyneel and lance were out to get contador. but if you have a proven grand tour rider like contador you support him completely, not a dream of 1-2-3. lance had guys on his teams like landis, hamilton, heras that could have competed for podium spots also but it never crossed bruyneel or lance's mind to develop a strategy to get them there. they were told to sacrifice themselves for lance and the yellow with the hopes of maybe a stage win in return.
> 
> i think it proved a fairly boneheaded plan. if they controlled the race with their obvious power they could have had contador well in yellow (over 10mins) and ended up with stage wins for kloden and lance but now it looks unlikely because they're too high in GC for others to allow up the road. also they might not have had to use all their power to shred the field and still had 2 podium spots by saving one of the 3 riders.
> 
> instead contador is the bad guy because he wants yellow with the team's full support to get it and not the 1-2-3 plan. i feel for the guy a bit because i think he signed a contract with bruyneel thinking he's THE man and things changed.


Yup, and now Lance will not even get a stage win in this tour. Maybe Contador would have worked for him if he had 15 min. on the GC, well at least to some extent, but now he is somewhat secure but I don't seem him working for lance.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

pchrosto said:


> not really saying bruyneel and lance were out to get contador. but if you have a proven grand tour rider like contador you support him completely, not a dream of 1-2-3. lance had guys on his teams like landis, hamilton, heras that could have competed for podium spots also but it never crossed bruyneel or lance's mind to develop a strategy to get them there. they were told to sacrifice themselves for lance and the yellow with the hopes of maybe a stage win in return.
> 
> i think it proved a fairly boneheaded plan. if they controlled the race with their obvious power they could have had contador well in yellow (over 10mins) and ended up with stage wins for kloden and lance but now it looks unlikely because they're too high in GC for others to allow up the road. also they might not have had to use all their power to shred the field and still had 2 podium spots by saving one of the 3 riders.
> 
> instead contador is the bad guy because he wants yellow with the team's full support to get it and not the 1-2-3 plan. i feel for the guy a bit because i think he signed a contract with bruyneel thinking he's THE man and things changed.



I see what you are saying and it does have merit. I guess JB just couldnt help it with LA being added and such a strong team he figured he could do it. Hey if that 1-2-3 worked out we would be calling him a genius. Up until the Levi and Kloden mess he was looking that way to me. You really think AC needs help? I agree LA coming to the team deffinately changed JB's stratagy. How could it not? Look where he is in the standings. He aint no ordinary team mate and I dont see why he should be even though its the norm for team stratagy. Im saying that as a fan of both AC and LA. Changing the game can cost you sometimes but at the same time risk/reward has its advantages. All that said they still have a slim chance at two podiums. Astana with two podiums would make me bounce off the walls.


----------



## RonSchon (Jul 4, 2009)

I just don't think AC intentionally dropped Kloden. I think the Schleck Bros were going, and he went with them. AC turned to look for Andy several times, then fust said "Juck it" I gotta go.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

baker921 said:


> So how is AC able to help? Andy attacks (with his brother) and AC follows with LA. the brothers continue to attack and the Astana duo lead by AC follow. When the time is right AC attacks, LA follows and the Schleks are broken. AC then pushes LA over the line for the win! I don't think so. Substitute LA for Andreas Kloden and this was wednesdays game plan.
> More likely I think AS will be defending his 2nd spot rather than chasing AC. He has got 3/4 guys within catching distance behind him and AC is a loooong way ahead. I'm sure LA is a great poker player but all AS has to do is defend against LA and ignore everything else. LA's best help can only come from others behind him trouble is if any of them are to threaten AS they will have overtaken LA too.
> I fear they might all ride up the Ventoux together with a mad dash for glory as they reach yke 1k kite.


I really hope LA has something up his sleave as he kinda indicated that he will be ready for Ventoux [read 3rd place]. I just dont see the Schlecks breaking. I see them not being able to stay with AC because he is a ridiculous climber. Question is can LA stay with the Schlecks and AC when the climb gets tough? I wouldnt be surprised to see Kloden pulling LA all day till he cracks while AC sucks Schlecks wheel and let them work.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

RonSchon said:


> I just don't think AC intentionally dropped Kloden. I think the Schleck Bros were going, and he went with them. AC turned to look for Andy several times, then fust said "Juck it" I gotta go.


IIRC AC attacked first and left the Schlecks and Kloden in his wake. He had a good lead over all of them till he realised Kloden wasnt with him and slowed. Schlecks caught up and AC had to stay and mark the Schlecks. AC didnt do it to implode the team or Kloden it just happend that way. Even Levi said he didnt like what AC did but it wasnt intentional. He thought he was doing something good for the team and it back fired. I have a nit to pick with him for that move but I got over it as it doesnt appear that it was done with malice.


----------



## RonSchon (Jul 4, 2009)

Yes, Snake, your replay is more accurate. I agree - maybe not a perfect move, but didn't look like an intentional bad move.


----------



## bertoni (Jan 10, 2008)

Snakebitten said:


> Apparently you dont understand that Astana this year had chance at a 1-2-3 podium and could have taken 4th. It was a unique situation. No reason AC wouldnt have won the TDF and all his team mates come in behind him. No one can stay with him so his win is not in jepardy. Whats better for a team than a TDF win? Having more than 1 podium spot. AC antics possibly cost Astana a shot at history. This wasnt an ordinary team.



Your last sentence is true. Astana this year was WAY too top heavy with riders who were never going to ride for one person or anyone else but themselves. The chemistry was toxic, and Bruyneel had no ability to keep things balanced, and was delusional for thinking that he could. He needs to become Lances puppet again, which is exactly what will happen when he joins Dream Team Radio Shack. I give them two years tops.


----------



## mcd (Jun 22, 2002)

you guys are sooo uncreative...

right after the feed break, lance looks around the peloton, give's a special "livestrong" wink, and hincapie, vandevlede, popo, kloden and evens form a train "arc-en-ciel" and begin dancing out a rhythm and then "oh, my look at the old man go" "why they've certainly turned on the sharp and narrow" and blow the peloton away by time trialing their way up col day fontaube, col days abeilles, and then launching LA in a shower of golden glitter to the top of ventoux where he sits up, waits and then gifts the win to kloden... 

duh!?!?


----------



## Cycle Buddha (Jun 23, 2009)

AC has never worked for anyone, even when he was supposed to.

Before AC became leader, originally Bruyneel had in mind Leipheimer as leader. Even then, he was himself a saboteur of Leipheimer when he should have been a supporter. Then last year in the T-o-Spain, AC *****ed and moaned when Leipheimer (who had spent much of the race working for AC without complaint) came too close after the final TT to his overall time. In short, whether he is leader or not, AC only works for AC.

He may win several TdFs, but that quality alone, the inability to be a good teammate, precludes him from ever being a true champion in my book. Just how I feel 

My heart is cheering for LA, but I don't think this is his year.


----------



## JohnHemlock (Jul 15, 2006)

Glorious day here in Provence, heading up the road to witness some sweetness!


----------



## movern (Jul 19, 2009)

pchrosto said:


> i'm rooting for the schleck bros to take 1-2 but doubt contador will crack at this point.
> 
> astana was never a "team" this tour, up until this comeback they employed the same strategy for contador that they used for lance in years past. the only people that worked for contador were rast, popo, muravyev, zubeldia and paulinho. other than these true domestiques i haven't really seen any of the others pacing contador as had been done for lance in his past wins.
> 
> ...



Just for the record; 
The Sorensens are not brothers! Sørensen is a very common surname in ´Denmark


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

bertoni said:


> Your last sentence is true. Astana this year was WAY too top heavy with riders who were never going to ride for one person or anyone else but themselves. The chemistry was toxic, and Bruyneel had no ability to keep things balanced, and was delusional for thinking that he could. He needs to become Lances puppet again, which is exactly what will happen when he joins Dream Team Radio Shack. I give them two years tops.


This is silly talk imho Look at the race up until AC started thinking only about himself or just innocently making rash decissions. Still trying to figure him out. JB plan was working to perfection. Astana was at one point 2-5 positions. Up until both ill timed moves by AC that went against the DS team decissions. AC is a great racer but even the AC jockeys have to admit he did cost the team by his actions. The LA haters see conspiracies in everything JB and LA does so logic wont penetrate. If you have a chance at history imho you take it and JB had such a chance and I dont fault him at all for trying. 

This team wasnt top heavy imho it was a special team that could have made history but for one guys solo ambition or boneheaded decissions. Im still trying to figure AC out so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and consider his age as well as what he may have percieved by LA being brought on the team. Cant blame a guy for wanting clarity on where he stands. I think it would have worked. Who was gonna beat AC?????????? No one in this years TDF. Just my 2c


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

*Bruyneel*

In today's intro, they show Johann saying:
"You can't race for second and third if you have first. At some point, you have to sacrifice your strongest guys to keep only one guy on the podium."

Why not say that right after the last mountain stage rather than hemming and hawing about Contador's attack (which he ended the second he saw Kloden couldn't go)? Or did they tape that before he thought he could sweep? They never sacrificed Lance for the yellow. Not once did he ride tempo.

If that's the strategy, that's the strategy, right? When did it change, and are we sure they told Contador? Would they ever have changed it for LA.

Lance, of course, threw AC under the bus before the stage, saying, "I think we all know what's going on there, so I'm not going to comment. We just want to keep the core of the team strong," when he was asked if Contador should work to help LA's podium spot.
Seems to me "what's going on" is AC is winning the race for Astana. What a douche he is for continuing to feed the beast and suggesting that something more insidious is going on. I rooted for Lance before, and I'm glad he's made his comeback seem legit, but he's every bit the ego-driven a-hole he's always been interpersonally, and he's undermined his clear team leader at every step.

AC never had full support. What a bunch of d!cks. He has every right to attack and bury these hypocrites.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Snakebitten said:


> This is silly talk imho Look at the race up until AC started thinking only about himself or just innocently making rash decissions. Still trying to figure him out. JB plan was working to perfection. Astana was at one point 2-5 positions. Up until both ill timed moves by AC that went against the DS team decissions. AC is a great racer but even the AC jockeys have to admit he did cost the team by his actions. The LA haters see conspiracies in everything JB and LA does so logic wont penetrate. If you have a chance at history imho you take it and JB had such a chance and I dont fault him at all for trying.
> 
> This team wasnt top heavy imho it was a special team that could have made history but for one guys solo ambition or boneheaded decissions. Im still trying to figure AC out so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and consider his age as well as what he may have percieved by LA being brought on the team. Cant blame a guy for wanting clarity on where he stands. I think it would have worked. Who was gonna beat AC?????????? No one in this years TDF. Just my 2c


I understand you wanted this to happen, but the evidence is clear it was never going to. Kloden couldn't go uphill with the Schlecks - ever - and Lance only took 15 seconds from Andy in the ITT. Andy Schleck is the second-best rider in this race. There was never a way that Astana was going to fill the podium. If AC doesn't attack and Kloden doesn't crack, the only difference is maybe Kloden's in third instead of Lance. There was never a chance they were going to knock Andy off the podium. I would think that would be clear to everybody by now.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

^^Yeah I heard them both. Curious how they both had a different perspective on todays race. I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays out. Im still not sure if the infighting is as destructive as the media or our perceptions make it out to be. I do remember LA and AC having good conversation and exchanging daps a few days ago so who knows. Ventoux may just decide it for all of them. Sure is very windy from the shots Ive seen this morning.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

jptaylorsg said:


> I understand you wanted this to happen, but the evidence is clear it was never going to. Kloden couldn't go uphill with the Schlecks - ever - and Lance only took 15 seconds from Andy in the ITT. Andy Schleck is the second-best rider in this race. There was never a way that Astana was going to fill the podium. If AC doesn't attack and Kloden doesn't crack, the only difference is maybe Kloden's in third instead of Lance. There was never a chance they were going to knock Andy off the podium. I would think that would be clear to everybody by now.



Things happened to change the outcome and everyones elses stratagy. No way to be that sure as you are. What happens if AC doesnt attack Kloden. He stays with them and the pace stays the same which Kloden was handling and LA would have been able to bridge again thus keeping the "dream" alive. Remember the Schlecks didnt attack. They both [LA, Kloden] lost massive time because of that "one" impetuous move by AC. Once you change the equation you cant use the resultant changes as proof the original plan wouldnt have worked.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Snakebitten said:


> ^^Yeah I heard them both. Curious how they both had a different perspective on todays race. I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays out. Im still not sure if the infighting is as destructive as the media or our perceptions make it out to be. I do remember LA and AC having good conversation and exchanging daps a few days ago so who knows. Ventoux may just decide it for all of them. Sure is very windy from the shots Ive seen this morning.


Well, it's easy for Contador (if in fact he hasn't been the problem) to take the high road considering he's wearing yellow anyway. But without really knowing what's going on, it's all speculation. I feel like LA hit the road undermining AC, and the interview today does nothing to change my mind, but whatever else is going on, who knows? It could be that this has been the strategy all along, and they're laughing every night at dinner over all the speculation, but I have no idea why they would do that as messing with the press and spectators doesn't seem to have anything to do with the actual race.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

jptaylorsg said:


> Well, it's easy for Contador (if in fact he hasn't been the problem) to take the high road considering he's wearing yellow anyway. But without really knowing what's going on, it's all speculation. I feel like LA hit the road undermining AC, and the interview today does nothing to change my mind, but whatever else is going on, who knows? It could be that this has been the strategy all along, and they're laughing every night at dinner over all the speculation, but I have no idea why they would do that as messing with the press and spectators doesn't seem to have anything to do with the actual race.


Agreed.....Weird stratagy unless it was just to punk the media and keep the other teams from knowing who was the captain and who to go after. AC kinda put a kink in the latter if that was the stratagy lol. Itll all come out soon as the TDF is finished. Also dont know if you saw the Levi interview. He was upset at AC for dropping Kloden as it was wholey unnesessary as Astana had a decent hold up the GC with Nocentini still in yellow. But he did say he didnt think AC did it unpurpose to harm the team. Maybe nothing more than youthful exuberance with a dash of selfishness thrown in. I dotn think he is a horrible, slimey guy like some are making him appear to be. Same I feel with LA. He is an intense competitor and that can be misconstrued as well.


----------



## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

Snakebitten said:


> Agreed.....Weird stratagy unless it was just to punk the media and keep the other teams from knowing who was the captain and who to go after. AC kinda put a kink in the latter if that was the stratagy lol. Itll all come out soon as the TDF is finished. Also dont know if you saw the Levi interview. He was upset at AC for dropping Kloden as it was wholey unnesessary as Astana had a decent hold up the GC with Nocentini still in yellow. But he did say he didnt think AC did it unpurpose to harm the team. Maybe nothing more than youthful exuberance with a dash of selfishness thrown in. I dotn think he is a horrible, slimey guy like some are making him appear to be. Same I feel with LA. He is an intense competitor and that can be misconstrued as well.


All true, but they're all intense competitors, and being an intense competitor doesn't excuse Lance from undermining his team leader from the start (unless, of course that was the strategy). If it was the strategy, though, it was weirdly executed as Lance never really gave them anything to worry about. He never attacked to set up AC or anything, you know? Either way, I think they'll mostly come away happy barring catastrophy, and I hope Lance does well. As I said, douche or not, that would be the stuff of legend.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

jptaylorsg said:


> All true, but they're all intense competitors, and being an intense competitor doesn't excuse Lance from undermining his team leader from the start (unless, of course that was the strategy). If it was the strategy, though, it was weirdly executed as Lance never really gave them anything to worry about. He never attacked to set up AC or anything, you know? Either way, I think they'll mostly come away happy barring catastrophy, and I hope Lance does well. As I said, douche or not, that would be the stuff of legend.


I hear ya. But Im giving AC and LA the benefit of the doubt since we just dont know everything yet. 

Edit: Case in point. I just heard the comentator say that "AC said HE WILL help LA up MT Ventoux". See lol. Too many twists in As Astana Turns lol. Its a soap opera.


----------



## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

the easiest way for AC to "help" LA would be to simply coordinate his attack with LA so that LA is not caught off guard, not that he would be sleeping, but if 3 pedal strokes makes a difference sometimes. if the schlecks start the 1-2 punch like they did on ADH last year, AC WILL have a hard time responding to everything alone, assuming the attacks start at the bottom and not the top. I can easily imagine Frank blowing himself up to help andy take podium. now if AC survives all of he Astana attacks AND all of the Saxo attacks, AND all of the Garmin attacks, AND all of the Eusketel attacks, AND AC shows a VAM of 2000, clearly he is the best man to win.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

bauerb said:


> the easiest way for AC to "help" LA would be to simply coordinate his attack with LA so that LA is not caught off guard, not that he would be sleeping, but if 3 pedal strokes makes a difference sometimes. if the schlecks start the 1-2 punch like they did on ADH last year, AC WILL have a hard time responding to everything alone, assuming the attacks start at the bottom and not the top. I can easily imagine Frank blowing himself up to help andy take podium. now if AC survives all of he Astana attacks AND all of the Saxo attacks, AND all of the Garmin attacks, AND all of the Eusketel attacks, AND AC shows a VAM of 2000, clearly he is the best man to win.



This scenario is scary if it does turn out that way. If AC survives all this and wins he isnt human lol. Im worried about the Schlecks and Saxo more than Garmin or Astana canabalizing themselves. Im thinking an AC, LA and Kloden coordinated attack my just soften up F. Schleck and everyone else. If they can do that then its Astana 1 and 3. A. Schleck aint cracking.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

I guess it wasn't such an outlandish proposition after all.


----------



## moonstation2000 (Sep 5, 2008)

Well who would have thought? AC helped LA up Ventoux after all! Didn't go for the stage win (surprising), maybe he gets an invite to team radio shack in two years when LA retires in return.


----------



## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

TmaxR said:


> I guess it wasn't such an outlandish proposition after all.


Indeed.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

moonstation2000 said:


> Well who would have thought? AC helped LA up Ventoux after all! Didn't go for the stage win (surprising), maybe he gets an invite to team radio shack in two years when LA retires in return.


LOL...Helped hin.

Alls he did was sat on Andy's wheel.

AC marked Andy & LA marked Frank.....all day.

AC was riding to protect first....LA was riding to protect third. Anything else you think you saw was fiction

len


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Len J said:


> LOL...Helped hin.
> 
> Alls he did was sat on Andy's wheel.
> 
> ...


Right.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

TmaxR said:


> Right.


You are projecting what you want to see on sound tactics.

AC & LA each had seperate missions today....and they executed them perfectly.

AC defend against Andy....LA defend 3rd against Frank.

Len


----------



## moonstation2000 (Sep 5, 2008)

Len J said:


> LOL...Helped hin.
> 
> Alls he did was sat on Andy's wheel.
> 
> ...



You don't think AC had it in the tank to go for the stage win today? There is no reason left to mark and conserve energy - he won't need it tomorrow!

He helped LA by not taking off and dragging a schleck or two with him. He's proven he's the best climber - he could have won the stage. But he hung back for LA.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

moonstation2000 said:


> You don't think AC had it in the tank to go for the stage win today? There is no reason left to mark and conserve energy - he won't need it tomorrow!
> 
> He helped LA by not taking off and dragging a schleck or two with him. He's proven he's the best climber - he could have won the stage. But he hung back for LA.


Nope....His only mission today was to make sure Andy didn't take time. I

Len


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Alberto Contador:

"On the Ventoux, the number one priority will be to protect my yellow jersey, so I am going to race conservatively," said the Spaniard.

"But if the opportunity comes up, I will also help my team - Lance for example, to improve his place in the overall standings.

"That I can do no problem." - Velo News


----------



## svrider (Jan 14, 2009)

Len J said:


> LOL...Helped hin.
> 
> Alls he did was sat on Andy's wheel.
> 
> ...



Exactly.

All Conti did was follow Andy and save protect the yellow. 

Lance covered Frank and Wiggo.


----------



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Another opinion:



identifiler said:


> AC stuck perfectly to the right of LA, Winds came from the front right side at 45 kmh the last 3 kms.


----------



## vandalbob (Dec 13, 2001)

I think TMax and Len have hit it right on. Solid race by Astana and Saxo gave it a go.


----------



## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

TmaxR said:


> Another opinion:


Those crosswinds hurt especially on a steep grade like Ventoux. Placing himself strategically in the right angle behind AC to buffet those winds - I'm sure that helped Armstrong. And the fact that AC didn't just zoom up when he could, and leave his teammate in the dust. That was teamwork, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## moonstation2000 (Sep 5, 2008)

izzyfly said:


> Those crosswinds hurt especially on a steep grade like Ventoux. Placing himself strategically in the right angle behind AC to buffet those winds - I'm sure that helped Armstrong. And the fact that AC didn't just zoom up when he could, and leave his teammate in the dust. That was teamwork, nothing more, nothing less.



agreed!


----------



## tbgtbg (Mar 13, 2009)

izzyfly said:


> Those crosswinds hurt especially on a steep grade like Ventoux. Placing himself strategically in the right angle behind AC to buffet those winds - I'm sure that helped Armstrong. And the fact that AC didn't just zoom up when he could, and leave his teammate in the dust. That was teamwork, nothing more, nothing less.


I saw that also, and when AC crossed the finish line, I got the feeling he was pumping his fist in the air as much for LA keeping 3rd as himself at first. I think it was the plan, AC executed the plan magnificently and Astana gets 1 and 3. I actually think all the top riders had excellent rides today...


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Snakebitten said:


> This scenario is scary if it does turn out that way. If AC survives all this and wins he isnt human lol. Im worried about the Schlecks and Saxo more than Garmin or Astana canabalizing themselves. *Im thinking an AC, LA and Kloden coordinated attack my just soften up F. Schleck and everyone else. If they can do that then its Astana 1 and 3. A. Schleck aint cracking.*



What do I win?


----------



## seeborough (Feb 3, 2004)

Snakebitten said:


> What do I win?


50 Euros. 

Which also happens to be the fine for quoting your old posts.


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Snakebitten said:


> What do I win?


Nothing, none of the Astana guys ever attacked.


----------



## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Lol....At least it isnt 50 pesos...Oh wait


----------

