# Menchov



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Sounds like the questions are starting to be raised again about Rabobank's and Menchov's involvement in the Humanplasma blood doping that was going on in Austria, precipitated by the recent admissions of Kohl.

Menchov, like Di Luca, is no doubt "tranquillo"


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

damn hard not to be cynical watching that stage today. Menchov and Di Luca were on another planet, had an extra gear, whatever you want to call it. I know LA isn't in top form, but, seriously, not only couldn't he hold their pace, he couldn't even match their speed when they came by him.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> damn hard not to be cynical watching that stage today. Menchov and Di Luca were on another planet, had an extra gear, whatever you want to call it. I know LA isn't in top form, but, seriously, not only couldn't he hold their pace, he couldn't even match their speed when they came by him.



On top of that I thought it rather strange how Di Luca repeatedly kept trying to jump away from Menchov... gritting his teeth but not pulling away (except in last 200m or so) while Menchov just kept motoring consistently planted in his saddle with a calm looking poker face. It was like there was bungee cord connected between Di Luca's bike and Menchov's that prevented a gap from opening up. Di Luca looked very frustrated.

I'm not big on doping speculation (not that I would be surprised at all if they are all doping) but it's hard not to be cynical about what I can see with my own eyes.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

I read it on cyclingnews a few minutes ago.
Will Rabobank throw another grand tour away and pull Menchov?
Talk about your extra-terrestrial performances today (both light and dark pink jerseys).


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

"I gave explanations last year, I have nothing to do with it - I don't want to speak about it again," Menchov said after the Giro d'Italia stage to Blockhaus. "We're in a race now, I'd rather speak of the race."

Another non-denial denial.

A few days ago watching the Giro I was telling a friend about Menchov's 2006 climb up Alpe d'Huez and the look of agony on Menchov's face, like he was being skinned alive. I contrasted that image against what I see now on these mountain-top finishes, where he is almost expressionless.

Hope he's investigated and that the TdF keeps him out until the investigation is complete.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

No reason for Menchov to get the boot until Di Luca and Pellizotti are booted.

Does Pellizotti always climb with a smile while pulling from GT winners?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

waiting for the VAM from today..anyone know where to get the data to calculate it?


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Today's stage was a joke.

This Giro is just stupid. Too many damn dopers in this sport.

Pelizotti's performance was a testament to doping. Same goes for Menchov and DiLuca.

What a load of crap. 

But hey, nobody tests positive, so everyone must be clean, right?


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## ECXkid04 (Jul 21, 2004)

I really enjoy watching pro cycling and I try my best not to be as cynical as some, but I think Di Luca's juiced up, and watching Menchov close the gaps (straight-faced and seated) had me thinking "wtf???"... I would not be surprised in the slightest if he was found to be involved in something. It's a shame for guys like Cunego (assuming he is clean/cleaner than the others) who take a bunch of s**t for trying to do things honestly.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Today's stage pretty much tells you what this sport is all about at the professional level.

A complete disgrace.


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*I feel badly for the commentators that have to narrate this stuff.*

They surely know what they are commenting on is probably farse. I don't blame them for doing it, after all, it's money to them...but man, how much oomph and passion can you have for your job when you see these feats day in and day out? Pretty tough to stomach, I'm sure.

Much love to them.

bt


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Maybe we should turn this topic around a bit.

So, today's stage was amazingly aggressive and animated. There's no way non-dopers could make the mountain finish this exciting. Even with the doping, imagine the amount of hard work and effort they put into themselves to get to the level they are at.

...ugh, as true as the above paragraph was, it's still hard to feel passion for riders who, despite working hard and being extremely gifted, are closer to machines than they are people. How do you cheer for a robot?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

stevesbike said:


> damn hard not to be cynical watching that stage today. Menchov and Di Luca were on another planet, had an extra gear, whatever you want to call it. I know LA isn't in top form, but, seriously, not only couldn't he hold their pace, he couldn't even match their speed when they came by him.


I bet come July he'll be fully prepared again and the tables will be turned. No way someone with his ego and attitude is going to let these riders walk over him when he has the recourse to prevent it. Of course, I strongly suspect he's not doing this race on bread and water alone, but that doesn't mean he's fully prepared.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> Maybe we should turn this topic around a bit.
> 
> So, today's stage was amazingly aggressive and animated. There's no way non-dopers could make the mountain finish this exciting. Even with the doping, imagine the amount of hard work and effort they put into themselves to get to the level they are at.
> 
> ...ugh, as true as the above paragraph was, it's still hard to feel passion for riders who, despite working hard and being extremely gifted, are closer to machines than they are people. How do you cheer for a robot?


Same way auto racing fans cheer for Jenson Button.


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## JChasse (Sep 16, 2005)

Some racing fans actually cheer for Jenson Button??


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I hate doping allegations, and I'm not one of the people that likes controversies and pointing fingers, but........

The Menchov/DiLuca domination of this race is surprising me. I keep expecting the miles to catch up with them, but they do not falter. 

I'm going off of past performances, watching what happens to human beings when they push themselves like this. The Blockhaus climb was not really suited to Menchov or Diluca, as Menchov has had a tendency to crack on long climbs like that, and DiLuca is better with short, steep accelerations. I thought that Levi or Sastre would gain some time back, but they could not. 

If Menchov had not won the big time trial, Leipheimer would have been heralded with a dominant victory, but Menchov defeated him comfortably. If Leipheimer had not participated, Menchov's victory would have been even more significant. 

I am so sick and tired of watching clean riders getting raked over the coals (by the fans) for their "lackluster" performances. Every stage, the pro cycling forum has a hatefest for the "unexciting" riders. I so desperately wish that my mind didn't have to go in that direction, and I was able to avoid it until Blockhaus. I think that..............Blockhaus was a total farce. I lost some interest in the race on that one. 

I'm sorry. The GC favorites coming into this race are the finest athletes in the world. Are Menchov and DiLuca such monsters that they are actually that much greater than the other favorites in the sport? Maybe so, I guess. Otherwise has not been proven.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

JChasse said:


> Some racing fans actually cheer for Jenson Button??


Who the hell is Jenson Button?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

iliveonnitro said:


> Who the hell is Jenson Button?


Formula 1 driver, who has won 5 out of 6 races (or 6 of 7?) so far this year, prior to this year he was mostly known as a driver who had not fulfilled his much-hyped potential.


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## smbrum (Jul 9, 2008)

glad to see I'm not the only skeptic of that stage. DiLuca at least showed signs of struggling. Playing for the camera or not, he at least looked like he was at max towards the end. Menchov didnt even bother to do that. despite Diluca's best efforts Menchov just sat there like he was on a sunday morning stroll through the park. wasnt even breathing hard. way to effortless of a ride to be legit IMO.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

smbrum said:


> glad to see I'm not the only skeptic of that stage. DiLuca at least showed signs of struggling. Playing for the camera or not, he at least looked like he was at max towards the end. Menchov didnt even bother to do that. despite Diluca's best efforts Menchov just sat there like he was on a sunday morning stroll through the park. wasnt even breathing hard. way to effortless of a ride to be legit IMO.


Well Di Luca did drop him at that end, and Menchov had outsprinted him on 2 previous stages, so that suggests that Menchov was likely riding near his limit regardless of his appearance.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> Today's stage pretty much tells you what this sport is all about at the professional level.
> 
> A complete disgrace.



It sounds like you're not that psyched about cycling anymore. You should give you bikes away to test your barameter.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SicBith said:


> It sounds like you're not that psyched about cycling anymore. You should give you bikes away to test your barameter.


Is quiting your response to a challenge?


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

This is hilarious, doping detection via facial expressions, i presume we also know whether Di Luca really wasn't turning out any power and is burning out? Haven't any of you ever been in a race where no matter how hard you try, nothing comes out? I'm not saying that they are or are not doping, but this sort of speculation is laughable.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

function said:


> This is hilarious, doping detection via facial expressions, i presume we also know whether Di Luca really wasn't turning out any power and is burning out? Haven't any of you ever been in a race where no matter how hard you try, nothing comes out? I'm not saying that they are or are not doping, but this sort of speculation is laughable.



What you can't wrap your mind around is that people are not believing what they are seeing.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

lookrider said:


> What you can't wrap your mind around is that people are not believing what they are seeing.


I'm perfectly capable of stepping back and making sure that the conclusions i'm drawing have some form of solid foundation. This doesn't seem to be in use by some of the arguments here. If your form of reasoning was used in sports arbitration, there would be a lot of unfairly ruined careers. Anyway carry on with the speculation.


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## smbrum (Jul 9, 2008)

function said:


> I'm perfectly capable of stepping back and making sure that the conclusions i'm drawing have some form of solid foundation. This doesn't seem to be in use by some of the arguments here. If your form of reasoning was used in sports arbitration, there would be a lot of unfairly ruined careers. Anyway carry on with the speculation.


yes but my opinion as a spectator and fan are surely not going to ruin careers. Obviously if I were in a position of influence there would hopefully be more restraint in my speculation. However, as just a fan, yes it was hard to believe what I was seeing. I mean after all these guys have been through over the last few weeks I guess its just extremely hard ot fathom that kind of effort with little to no emotion. Normally, when an athlete is at their limit there is some indication of the pain and suffering they are going through. Hats off to the both of them though if it was a clean effort.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

smbrum said:


> yes but my opinion as a spectator and fan are surely not going to ruin careers. Obviously if I were in a position of influence there would hopefully be more restraint in my speculation. However, as just a fan, yes it was hard to believe what I was seeing. I mean after all these guys have been through over the last few weeks I guess its just extremely hard ot fathom that kind of effort with little to no emotion. Normally, when an athlete is at their limit there is some indication of the pain and suffering they are going through. Hats off to the both of them though if it was a clean effort.


It's a well known trick to try and look like you have no problems when someone attacks. Just as some fake tiredness earlier on in a stage. 
If you look back and the guy on your wheel looks fine, you are more likely to give up than if he is looking sh!t and is trying to keep his tongue out of the front wheel.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

SicBith said:


> It sounds like you're not that psyched about cycling anymore. You should give you bikes away to test your barameter.



What's a barameter???

Anyway, I'm drawing a distinction between cycling in general, which I love, and professional cycling, which is approaching the image of professional wrestling and bodybuilding.


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## smbrum (Jul 9, 2008)

den bakker said:


> It's a well known trick to try and look like you have no problems when someone attacks. Just as some fake tiredness earlier on in a stage.
> If you look back and the guy on your wheel looks fine, you are more likely to give up than if he is looking sh!t and is trying to keep his tongue out of the front wheel.


true enough if you can pull it off. heck of a poker face I suppose


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Facial expressions aside, Blockhaus was garbage.

I agree that excellent riders are absolutely getting shelled by dopers who are heralded as heroes when, in reality, they are destroying this sport.

Look, at this point, this whole bio passport, testing, etc., is nonsense. They can barely make a dent in doping.


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> Facial expressions aside, Blockhaus was garbage.
> 
> I agree that excellent riders are absolutely getting shelled by dopers who are heralded as heroes when, in reality, they are destroying this sport.


I agree. Who are some of the excellent riders at Giro getting shelled by dopers, other than Cunego, Levi Leipheimer and (today) Danny Pate?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

fornaca68 said:


> I agree. Who are some of the excellent riders at Giro getting shelled by dopers, other than Cunego, Levi Leipheimer and (today) Danny Pate?


I'd put money on at least one of those guys not being clean


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

I'd put money on the other two being ex-dopers


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

CabDoctor said:


> I'd put money on the other two being ex-dopers


Pate? No way


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> Is quiting your response to a challenge?



Not really. I like complaining about it first then belittling the sport I'm passionate about on the internet. I find that works way better than tolerance.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

fornaca68 said:


> I agree. Who are some of the excellent riders at Giro getting shelled by dopers, other than Cunego, Levi Leipheimer and (today) Danny Pate?


I think the following riders would be closer to the top of the classification but for the extraterrestrials:

1. Cunego
2. Simoni
3. Lovkvist
4. Pinotti
5. Danielson
6. Sastre

Look, these time gaps are enormous. The breakpoint between the top and bottom halves of the classification is over 2 hours and 20 minutes.

There is some serious sauce being used in the peloton. Nothing has changed. Absolutely nothing.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

funny how sastre rode away from the extraterrestrials huh. 



FondriestFan said:


> I think the following riders would be closer to the top of the classification but for the extraterrestrials:
> 
> 1. Cunego
> 2. Simoni
> ...


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

den bakker said:


> funny how sastre rode away from the extraterrestrials huh.


Funny how you didn't realize that he rode away because they let him since he wasn't a real threat at that point. DiLuca said as much.

Funny how you didn't realize he got shelled like a circus peanut once they deemed him a threat.

Seriously, did you watch the race at all??


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> Funny how you didn't realize that he rode away because they let him since he wasn't a real threat at that point. DiLuca said as much.
> 
> Funny how you didn't realize he got shelled like a circus peanut once they deemed him a threat.
> 
> Seriously, did you watch the race at all??


I'm sure his ride to win a stage did not cost him anything the next day.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

den bakker said:


> I'm sure his ride to win a stage did not cost him anything the next day.


I'm sure it didn't either, considering the next day was a rest day.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> I'm sure it didn't either, considering the next day was a rest day.


hold on a minute, I need to get my foot out of my mouth


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

SicBith said:


> Not really. I like complaining about it first then belittling the sport I'm passionate about on the internet. I find that works way better than tolerance.


I am passionate about our sport, and have been for 25 years. That is why I do not ignore it's problems. If you tolerate the problems instead of addressing them they will only get bigger.....this has been proven repeatedly.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

den bakker said:


> hold on a minute, I need to get my foot out of my mouth


No worries, I usually keep both feet in mine!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the thing that really bugs me is the arrogance of guys like Di Luca - calling out other riders for not racing aggressively etc. Ricco did the same thing (and then got popped).


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> the thing that really bugs me is the arrogance of guys like Di Luca - calling out other riders for not racing aggressively etc. Ricco did the same thing (and then got popped).


Ricco and Di luca share the same doctor, in fact Ricco said it was Santuccione who gave him CERA


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## eyebob (Feb 3, 2004)

*Mad respect for you now Den Bakker*

Way to own up.

Good to see.

bt


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I still fail to see how doping will "ruin the sport" as so many claim. It won't, and there's no proof of it.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

FondriestFan said:


> Facial expressions aside, Blockhaus was garbage.
> 
> I agree that excellent riders are absolutely getting shelled by dopers who are heralded as heroes when, in reality, they are destroying this sport.
> 
> Look, at this point, this whole bio passport, testing, etc., is nonsense. They can barely make a dent in doping.


Again, I really wish that I did not think the same thing, but I can not help it. I was really enjoying this race at first, but the last several stages have made me lose interest.

I hate saying it out loud, but I think this thing is a farce.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I still fail to see how doping will "ruin the sport" as so many claim. It won't, and there's no proof of it.


Chances are it won't...except for those that take it personally and or personally invest themselves in the racers. Most fans take it for what it is...entertainment and no different than any other professional sport.

If anything cycling will, in the end, take a page from successful sports in other areas...they drug test, but it's more of a "Look, we are doing something about it" than real testing. The reason: People want to see "Super Human" performances, not something that is just slightly beyond their own capacity. The only people that get caught are the truly stupid, those that really ticked off the sanctioning bodies, or those that are throwing it in the face of the sanctioning bodies.

The reason...doping will never be out of the sport. As long as there is a way to get a "Leg" up on the competition racers will use it and they are always 2 steps ahead of the tests.

If they want to see close "non drug enhanced" races they can go and watch the local racing scene. There is plenty of good racing going on there and not a whole lot of EPO/CERA usage


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## chiefinspector (Jul 4, 2007)

*no positives?*

would this be the first grand tour where no rider was busted?


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

chiefinspector said:


> would this be the first grand tour where no rider was busted?


its the giro, translation, a free for all


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*the drugs have me a little confused*



alexb618 said:


> its the giro, translation, a free for all


Then what does that make the Vuelta e Espana?


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

piano said:


> Then what does that make the Vuelta e Espana?


The poor man's Giro.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

At least DiLuca looks like he's trying. Talk about a poker face from Menchov.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I bet come July he'll be fully prepared again and the tables will be turned. No way someone with his ego and attitude is going to let these riders walk over him when he has the recourse to prevent it. Of course, I strongly suspect he's not doing this race on bread and water alone, but that doesn't mean he's fully prepared.


He started the race looking like a linebacker, today he looks somewhere between a triathlete and a pro bike racer. By the Tour he should be in good enough shape again to keep up with his fuel additives.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)




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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

In all honesty, I prefer Menchov to win it over Di Luca. Di Luca has been involved in multiple doping incidents. They saved the Menchov accusations until a few days before the end of the Giro.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> In all honesty, I prefer Menchov to win it over Di Luca. Di Luca has been involved in multiple doping incidents. They saved the Menchov accusations until a few days before the end of the Giro.


Actually Menchov's involvement in the Vienna lab was reported over a year ago, nobody paid much attention until he had the pink jersey.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Nice pic of that doper Fignon lying with his face trying to show he's clean.

Who are these non-dopers that are being robbed? I think there are some who've refused to go the transfusion route but seriously doubt any of them are clean by what the US anti dope armchair analysts would consider clean.

The time differences between front and back in grand tours have always been hours. More than 3 hours in the old days before blood doping. When a race is 100 hours long you're only 2% worse when you're 2 hours back. It doesn't take much to produce that difference and when the anti dopers routinely claim EPO is worth 8-10% what does that say about any claims that there are clean riders in the peloton? Can't have it both ways.

Sastre's TdF victory was over extraterrestrials so he's either off and on again with his doping (which the bio passport scheme very strongly discourages) or he's a doper.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

terzo rene said:


> claim EPO is worth 8-10% what does that say about any claims that there are clean riders in the peloton?


On a climb is where you would see the most pronounced difference. You certainly saw a select group this year when the road when. Last year we saw the clear difference CERA could do as Ricco and Sella rode away like it was a game. 

In 1998 over 60 riders broke 45 minutes on Alp D'huez.....last year less then 10 did. Must be the heavier bikes they use these days.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> The time differences between front and back in grand tours have always been hours. More than 3 hours in the old days before blood doping. When a race is 100 hours long you're only 2% worse when you're 2 hours back.


Come on, terzo, you know that's not an accurate representation. Time gaps are not evenly distributed. Time gaps generally occur in clusters, either on mountain stages or on time trials. It's usually on mountain stages where the majority of time is lost. 2 hours is a ton of time to lose, given where the time is lost.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> In 1998 over 60 riders broke 45 minutes on Alp D'huez.....last year less then 10 did. Must be the heavier bikes they use these days.


What stage was that in 1998? Notwithstanding, there are myriad reasons why time on one section of a course could change from year to year. Besides equipment weight there is stage profile leading up to the final climb, position of stage in tour, numebr of riders still competing for various placings, team tactics on that day and preceding and following ones, and the list goes on. Did you consider all of those before concluding it was the weight of the bikes that made the difference? Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

asgelle said:


> What stage was that in 1998? Notwithstanding, there are myriad reasons why time on one section of a course could change from year to year. Besides equipment weight there is stage profile leading up to the final climb, position of stage in tour, numebr of riders still competing for various placings, team tactics on that day and preceding and following ones, and the list goes on. Did you consider all of those before concluding it was the weight of the bikes that made the difference? Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


It was 1997 that 60 riders broke 45 minutes. Certainly there are a variety of reasons why over 10 years later only a fraction of that figure are able to crack 45. The most obvious being the increased testing at the Tour last year.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> Certainly there are a variety of reasons why over 10 years later only a fraction of that figure are able to crack 45. The most obvious being the increased testing at the Tour last year.


There are a variety of possible reasons why only a fraction actually cracked 45 (we don't know how many were capable of doing it but did not). The most obvious possibility (to you) is not necessarlily the one most likely to be correct.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

asgelle said:


> There are a variety of possible reasons why only a fraction actually cracked 45 (we don't know how many were capable of doing it but did not). The most obvious possibility (to you) is not necessarlily the one most likely to be correct.


Of course it could always be a French conspiracy that has resulted in large groups of riders suddenly slowing over the last 10 years.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> Of course it could always be a French conspiracy that has resulted in large groups of riders suddenly slowing over the last 10 years.


In the absence of data all hypotheses are equally credible. Instead of trying to expand the list, maybe attention should be turned to getting the supporting evidence.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

asgelle said:


> In the absence of data all hypotheses are equally credible. Instead of trying to expand the list, maybe attention should be turned to getting the supporting evidence.


The data only supports one hypotheses, the French are secretly poisoning all the top foreigners in order to win the Tour......it is the only way they can do it as they are too lazy to train correctly.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> The data only supports one hypotheses, the French are secretly poisoning all the top foreigners in order to win the Tour......it is the only way they can do it as they are too lazy to train correctly.


So where is this data of which you speak? Let's see it.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Cyclismag is one of the best sources for VAM and Watts data. 
www.cyclismag.com

There is a huge amount of info on their site that goes back years. They calculate various performances with specific focus on climbing and TT's. Here is one of the many charts on their site. You can see that the number of riders able to hold 410 watts and the output of the winner. You can see it has dropped since 1996. They have some more recent figures from 2007 and 2008 if you look around the site


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


>


What does that have to do with a French conspiracy? Where is the data that show causality of climbing rate increases to French conspiracies? Or are we looking at global warming and pirates again? https://asecondhandconjecture.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pirates_and_globalwarming.jpg


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

FondriestFan said:


> Come on, terzo, you know that's not an accurate representation. Time gaps are not evenly distributed. Time gaps generally occur in clusters, either on mountain stages or on time trials. It's usually on mountain stages where the majority of time is lost. 2 hours is a ton of time to lose, given where the time is lost.


just because it doesn't support your thesis doesn't mean it's not an accurate representation. A statistic based on subjectively picking and choosing which stages count and which don't would be inherently biased. Which stages would've counted in the Giro this year? They have climbs that aren't even categorized or shown on the profiles that would be cat 3 or 4 in the TdF. 

bigpinkt: nice chart - evidently it only takes a year or two at most to adapt to any new testing regime before they're right back up where they were before. The only thing they can't match is the unlimited HCT era.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> just because it doesn't support your thesis doesn't mean it's not an accurate representation. A statistic based on subjectively picking and choosing which stages count and which don't would be inherently biased. Which stages would've counted in the Giro this year? They have climbs that aren't even categorized or shown on the profiles that would be cat 3 or 4 in the TdF.
> 
> bigpinkt: nice chart - evidently it only takes a year or two at most to adapt to any new testing regime before they're right back up where they were before. The only thing they can't match is the unlimited HCT era.


Did I propose a thesis??

What I was pointing out is that the time gaps happen over shorter distances. So, saying that 100 hours should be the denominator is very misleading. Many of the stages are sprint stages, where most, if not all the peloton arrive together. What about the Milan stage? That was basically a group ride.

I think you have to look at the time gaps generated when the peloton starts to break up. The issue is certainly complicated, I agree, but the analysis you presented is both simplistic and misleading.


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