# Frame or wheels, what's more important?



## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Which would have more impact on climbing and distance:

Wheels or frame ?


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## Pancho's Balls (Aug 15, 2009)

Bearing grease trumps them all.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

motor


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## jimmythekidd (Nov 13, 2009)

Motor will always be the real defining characteristic, but I doubt you were looking for that answer so here is my two cents. Essentially its going to boil down to where you start off. If you have a frame that is poor quality(i.e. flexy, weird geometry), or it doesnt fit you well, then you will suffer ill consequences no matter what kinda wheels you are riding. However, if the frame is decent and fits reasonably well, then wheel will definitely have a bigger impact. A good wheelset will significantly alter the feel of the bike and make riding much more enjoyable and efficient. Acceleration will be faster, and the coasting will be better. So if the choice is between super high end frame and super high end wheels, I say wheels.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Frame affects fit, and fit affects how many watts the 'motor' (i.e. _you_) can put out, so I'm gonna say frame is #1.

Wheels are second, but definitely quite important too. I hate accelerating heavy wheels all the time... it's just kinda demoralizing.
.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

You won't go anywhere without either.

There is no answer to your question really. If you were talking about upgrading one or the other and your starting point was known then it would be worth discussing.


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## j-man (Sep 3, 2009)

frame is the foundation of the whole bike


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Since I see this post as an offshoot of your Madone vs R3 post, I'll answer this way.

IMO riding an ill fitting frame adversely affects the power you make, and the longer distance you ride, the ill fit translates into some level of pain. Seems to me at that point you could be riding a high bling Di2 equipped bike with a pair of sub 1500g CF wheels and it wouldn't make a lot of difference.

That given, first pin down your fit requirements, get a bike sized as close to those requirements as is reasonably possible, _tweak_ fit, _then_ worry about upgrading wheels at some point.


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## jrz1 (Mar 15, 2006)

I believe that there are plenty of fairly low cost decent frames in all materials (carbon, aluminum, steel, ti). I don't believe that the difference between these frames and super high cost frames is that great. But having gone from average wheels (Mavic Ksyriums) to low weight, carbon, semi-aero wheels (2010 Zipp 303 tubulars) I can say that the difference is huge. Very noticeable, especially climbing and at maintaining high speeds on flats for long distances. I wouldn't have said this before, but I now believe that your choice in wheelsets has the greatest affect on how a bike feels given that whatever frame you are on "fits" properly.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Some thoughts.*



tanner3155 said:


> Which would have more impact on climbing and distance:
> 
> Wheels or frame ?


Climbing: most noticeable impact on climbing by far is to shed weight, doesn't matter how: frame, wheels, rider. Forget the notion that there's such a thing as a "climbing frame geometry". Even if there would be such a thing, the supposed benefit is insignificant compared to the benefit of less weight. A stiff frame is good to have on a climb, but you can ride a noodle to King-of-the-Mountain status if you know how to spin smoothly uphill instead of pounding the pedals.

Distance: comfort coming out of a good fit trumps reasonable frame or wheel weight.


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## tlc4bikes (Dec 31, 2009)

When I talk to people looking to purchase a bike I break the bike down to 3 areas - Frame , wheels and components. First start out with a frame that fits. Then you look at the wheels and lastly look at what components will complete the package (in the price range that the client wants). So to me the frame is the first/most important then comes the wheels and to a certain degree the components comes last because they wont make you go any faster. There's no really bad frames/wheels being sold at your local shops just frames/wheels that you can afford and frames/wheels that you can not afford. Both are very important and can be argued that each is the most important. As for myself I will start with a frame and go from there.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

jrz1 said:


> I believe that there are plenty of fairly low cost decent frames in all materials (carbon, aluminum, steel, ti).


There's cheap Ti? Where?? Point me at it!!! :arf:


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ok, so heres the dealeo..... since I need to get fitted first, I'll do that, then they will tell me that my Madone frame is too big. Then they will tell me that I need a 58 or maybe even a 56. Now, at this point I guess the answer to my question has to be to get the R3 frame in the proper size and worry about the wheels as soon as I get the $$$$. 

When it is time to get the wheels, what should I replace my Bontrager race lite's with for climbing? Do I have to get those $1500 carbon aero things? Is there a good non-aero clincher ?

Thanks all for your help!


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

tanner3155 said:


> When it is time to get the wheels, what should I replace my Bontrager race lite's with for climbing? Do I have to get those $1500 carbon aero things? Is there a good non-aero clincher ?
> 
> Thanks all for your help!


my advice is do your wallet a favor and forget you ever heard the term 'climbing wheels'. I've never used Bontrager race lites but from what I understand they're decent wheels. You shouldn't need another set of wheels to go up a hill.
Unless you're racing for money where split seconds count attention to proper gears and your legs is really all you need to worry about for climbing.


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## mitmoned (Apr 7, 2008)

tanner3155 said:


> When it is time to get the wheels, what should I replace my Bontrager race lite's with for climbing? Do I have to get those $1500 carbon aero things? Is there a good non-aero clincher ?
> 
> Thanks all for your help!


Not sure about the current weights of Race Lites, but my '05 version is 1500 grams. That's about all you need in terms of light weight vs. durability. Well, I should say, for the money, that is. If you want lighter than 1400 gram wheels that will last long and take abuse, expect to pay at least a dollar per gram. What wim points out holds the most water - overall weight of rider and bike will matter the most when climbing. Buying a $2000 wheelset to drop 200 grams doesn't make sense when you carry a 135 gram iPhone and/or more than a couple extra pounds around the mid-section (like I have).


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

Climbing wheels are only useful in racing. I race with 1250g aero wheels that retail for far more than I would ever want to admit to. I train on a wheelset that weighs over 2000g.

Riding recreationally, just get some moderately light wheels - something between 1500 and 1800g. It'll cost you under $700 for a wheelset, and they'll serve you wonderfully. 

The difference between my 1250g special wheels and my 2000g wheelset is truly minimal - think of it this way:

Weight = Weight of You + Weight of bike. 175lb + 16lb = 191lb. Is saving 200g really that important? Mehhhh.

Race Lites are just fine to ride on. I wouldn't bother upgrading them! Cheers :thumbsup:


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

If you are fit, both are equally important.
If unfit, neither is that important, IMO.....


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## Infini (Apr 21, 2003)

tanner3155 said:


> Ok, so heres the dealeo..... since I need to get fitted first, I'll do that, then they will tell me that my Madone frame is too big. Then they will tell me that I need a 58 or maybe even a 56. Now, at this point I guess the answer to my question has to be to get the R3 frame in the proper size and worry about the wheels as soon as I get the $$$$.
> 
> When it is time to get the wheels, what should I replace my Bontrager race lite's with for climbing? Do I have to get those $1500 carbon aero things? Is there a good non-aero clincher ?
> 
> Thanks all for your help!


1 - Isn't the R3 pretty expensive? You could buy a less expensive frame and a nice set of wheels for the same price. Less expensive doesn't specifically mean lower quality, comfort, or speed. The most comfortable bike I've owned had a $600 BMC Aluminum frame. I'm sure the R3 is a very nice bike. Is it worth the money to you?. 

In Competitive cyclist dollars, compared to an R3 frame, you could buy this full bike and have money left for another set of wheels. (this is just an example)

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...ine-slt-01-sram-force-complete-bike-6949.html


2 - If you're not racing, don't bother with tubular wheels. (or carbon)


3 - If are really interested in light wheels, you can get clinchers that are pretty light, and sometimes cheap. (FLIT Leticias are an example I've used - $400 and I think 1,300gm)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

SystemShock said:


> *There's cheap Ti?* Where?? Point me at it!!! :arf:


If you notice, jrz1 said 'fairly low cost...', not cheap. IMO/E there _is_ a difference.  

But at around $1,400 the Lynskey Cooper comes to mind.
http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a...itanium-road-bikes-road-houseblend-cooper.php


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> If you notice, jrz1 said 'fairly low cost...', not cheap. IMO/E there _is_ a difference.
> 
> But at around $1,400 the Lynskey Cooper comes to mind.
> http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/pages/frames-_-products/road/titanium-road-bikes-road-houseblend-cooper.php


I was going to nitpick your nitpick, but decided not to, on account of not caring very much.

Thanks for the Lynskey info. :thumbsup:
.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

SystemShock said:


> *I was going to nitpick your nitpick, but decided not to, on account of not caring very much.*
> 
> Thanks for the Lynskey info. :thumbsup:
> .


Sure you do. And you're welcome!


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> Sure you do.


 Nah.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, I'm old. I can retire in October at 55 (but I'm not). So, I've always promised myself that I would get an awesome machine for my last bike which I could ride to my death. So I'm kinda thinking of this as my last best bike I'll buy, so I want it to be nice. I don't care about racing, but I love climbing and want to train for a century. The R3 seems to be comfortable for distance and light for climbing. If there's a better frame for doing that then I'd like to hear about it. But I also have to like the look.


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## RussellS (Feb 1, 2010)

SystemShock said:


> There's cheap Ti? Where?? Point me at it!!! :arf:


Depends on what you considere cheap. Habanero for around $1000. Bikes Direct for $1000. Performance for $1000 (less $200 sale right now). $800 for a titanium frame built by the Mr. Lynskey everyone seems to think so highly of is not too bad is it?


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## Infini (Apr 21, 2003)

Sounds like there's no better time then now. Go for it


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

You could be riding for over 20 years... maybe a custom steel or ti bike would be better to take you there as your "last" bike.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tanner3155 said:


> Well, I'm old. I can retire in October at 55 (but I'm not). So, I've always promised myself that I would get an awesome machine for my last bike which I could ride to my death. So I'm kinda thinking of this as my last best bike I'll buy, so I want it to be nice. I don't care about racing, but I love climbing and want to train for a century. *The R3 seems to be comfortable for distance and light for climbing.* If there's a better frame for doing that then I'd like to hear about it. But I also have to like the look.


If you haven't already done so, I suggest taking the R3 and any other bike you're considering on at least one test ride of some duration - ideally doing some climbs along the way. Personal preferences vary widely, but when I was shopping for bikes one test ride on the R3 was all that I needed to take it out of the running. _Way _too stiff/ jarring for my liking. As always, YMMV.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

RussellS said:


> Habanero for around $1000. Bikes Direct for $1000. Performance for $1000 (less $200 sale right now).
> 
> $800 for a titanium frame built by the Mr. Lynskey everyone seems to think so highly of is not too bad is it?


Which frame is this? The Lynskey that PJ linked to is $1400. So I'm assuming you mean the Performance Ti Bike. 

(btw, checked out the Habanero Ti. It's nice-looking and quite inexpensive, but it's also straight-gauge tubing. Am I being too picky? :idea
.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

SystemShock said:


> *Which frame is this? * The Lynskey that PJ linked to is $1400. So I'm assuming you mean the Performance Ti Bike.
> 
> (btw, checked out the Habanero Ti. It's nice-looking and quite inexpensive, but it's also straight-gauge tubing. Am I being too picky? :idea
> .


Yeah, that confused me a little as well. I think RussellS is referring to the Performance Scattante Ti frame (_built_ by Lynskey) for $1,000 minus $200. 

If the claimed weights on the Habanero's is close to accurate, they aren't bad for using straight gauged tubing. Then again, I'm not a WW.


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## tanner3155 (Apr 5, 2008)

Well of course, the test ride is the ultimate. That will be done. Thanks everyone.


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## philg123 (May 16, 2009)

I was interested by the following quote from post number 18 of this thread from wim:

"if you know how to spin smoothly uphill instead of pounding the pedals"

Please can someone suggest how best to achieve smooth spinning uphill? 

I entered the Everest challenge in Bishop, CA last year and, through being vastly under-prepared, I found myself pounding the pedals even on the easiest climbs :blush2: 

I have been riding for 2 years

thanks in advance


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

High cadence, low gears, lots of fitness = smoothness.

There's not really any way to get to smooth pedalling other than those 3.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

philg123 said:


> Please can someone suggest how best to achieve smooth spinning uphill?


estone2 pretty much nailed it in as few words as possible, but let me add a few thoughts.

"Smooth spinning" implies a gradual force application and gradual cessation of force over the crank circle (as opposed to "pounding"), as well as a relatively high number of revolutions per minute, aka "cadence." Neither of these comes easy. One problem is that turning a small gear at a high cadence feels "slow" to most riders, so they avoid riding or, worse, training in that fashion. The other issue is that high cadences are only more efficient at higher power outputs, so a recreational rider noodling around at 100 watt or less is actually better served by a low-cadence, high-force pedal stroke.

To pull yourself out of that recreational-riding arena, my suggestion would be to ride, by yourself, a section of flat road at least once a week at a cadence and in a gear you consider "inappropiate for speed" for a set time, like two to four minutes. Towards the end of such a low-gear, high-cadence interval, you'll probably find your pedal stroke getting very choppy, but that's OK. It'll teach you to think "smooth, smooth, smooth" even if the pain is telling you to stop pedaling. In short, you need to train for a smooth, competitive uphill spin—with "train" meaning many repetitions over a few months on flat terrain unitil you can apply your smooth spin to your uphill competitive event.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

+1.

There are 2 types of intervals you should be doing.

Very fast, very hard, high cadence intervals. Pedalling as fast as you can, to get up that legspeed. So sprinting on flat land in tiny gears, basically, but for 1-3 minutes.

Very fast, very hard, low cadence intervals. Put the bike in a massive gear, and crank along in that for 2-4 minutes, focusing on a quality pedalstroke, "pedalling in circles".

An easy trick for focusing on pedalling circles? Imagine there's mud on the bottom of your shoes. Scrape it off at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Scrape! Scrape! Scrape! That'll get you a good, circular pedalstroke.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

tanner3155 said:


> When it is time to get the wheels, what should I replace my Bontrager race lite's with for climbing? Do I have to get those $1500 carbon aero things? Is there a good non-aero clincher ?
> 
> Thanks all for your help!


You do not have to spend big $ on wheels. First, Race Lites are not the worst wheels, especially if you are under 180#. I weigh 200# and did find my Race-X-Lite Aeros too flexy. 

I have two sets of wheels, Rolf Prima Elans and Easton EA-90's. The Rolfs are right about 1,400g and the Eastons tip the scale at 1,450g or so. The Rolf's came on my bike and I found the Eastons on sale for less than $500. 

In April I am going on a cycling trip to the Napa area and will be doing about 25,000 feet of climbing over 4 days. I am less concerned about how my wheels do going up hill than I am about how they do going down hill. I will probably go with the Eastons as they feel a bit more solid and when cruising down descents at 40+ mph you want to know your wheels are plenty solid.

Unless you are racing, I do not see any reason someone would "need" to spend anything over $600 or so for a superb set of wheels.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

estone2 said:


> +1.
> 
> There are 2 types of intervals you should be doing.
> 
> ...


I would add one legged drills as well. They are done most easily on a trainer, but can be done outside, on flat ground, as well. Just unclip one foot and pedal with the other one. You quickly find you need to pedal in more of a circle to eliminate the jerky motion. 2 minutes w/ each leg then 2 minute light spin with both feet clipped in. Try it first at 60 rpm then try it at 80 rpm. Use an easy gear.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

estone2 said:


> An easy trick for focusing on pedalling circles? Imagine there's mud on the bottom of your shoes. Scrape it off at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Scrape! Scrape! Scrape! That'll get you a good, circular pedalstroke.


Agree with that, especially since many people apply force to the pedal for much too long. Force applied to the crank at bottom dead center (which many people do) does nothing for forward propulsion. In technical terms, it's "unused force."

On the other hand, the term "pedaling circles" can be misleading. Elite cyclists do not "pull up" on the back stroke during seated riding, and most of their pedal force is applied from 2 to 4 o'clock on the crank circle. Perhaps a good definition of a "circular pedal stroke" would be "a pedal stroke during which no or very little unused force is applied."


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> pin down your fit requirements, get a bike sized as close to those requirements as is reasonably possible, _tweak_ fit, _then_ worry about upgrading wheels at some point.


I think that's the best possible advice anyone could give.:thumbsup:


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

_"Frame or wheels, what's more important? "_

Yes!


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## philg123 (May 16, 2009)

*smooth spinning*

I find that after nearly 2 yrs of road biking I am only just starting to address cadence etc. I was really envious watching CAT1 riders spinning uphill with no apparent effort. Of course I sort of knew that such results could only be achieved with disciplined reps done over a long period of time, but specific exercises were what I needed. I especially like the idea of one-legged drills.

Thanks everyone

(sorry Mr V - didn't mean to hijack the thread)


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## FlatlandRoller (Jan 22, 2004)

tanner3155 said:


> Well, I'm old. I can retire in October at 55 (but I'm not). So, I've always promised myself that I would get an awesome machine for my last bike which I could ride to my death.


With even bad luck you'll be riding for a long time, this won't be your last bike, no freaking way. It's gonna be hard to find a wheel that is "way better" than bonty race lites so let's go for a well fitting, nice riding frame and blingy wheels in a year or two.


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