# Help with Rotor 3d+ install on tarmac sl4 osbb



## LeeBradySL2 (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi

Just building up my tarmac s-works sl4 with the OSBB. Rotor states that all you need to fit the 3d+ crankset is the two 11.5mm spacers (one either side) and one 0.5mm nylon washer (non drive side. It states that you do not need the two 1.6mm bearing seals that would normally sit against the bearing face.

I've installed as per Rotor spec and there is approx 4-5mm space left which the non drive side adjuster cannot take up. I'm convinced that the bearing seasl should be installed as well, with these Im certain all will be well. Thing is I don't have any of the seals as they don't come with specializes's osbb so will need to order some

Anyone got an sl4 running the rotor 3d+?

Can you look at your configuration and let me know what you have fitted

Cheers
Lee


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## PrivateAddress (Jul 30, 2011)

This is already 2 months old now, but did you ever resolve this? I was just trying to install a Rotor Power crank (power meter with 3D+ cranks and axle) on my 2012 Tarmac SL4 and just like you I found that there is no way to fit this without another 4-5 mm of spacers somewhere..... Agh. So, did you solve it and, if so, how?

Thanks in advance!




LeeBradySL2 said:


> Hi
> 
> Just building up my tarmac s-works sl4 with the OSBB. Rotor states that all you need to fit the 3d+ crankset is the two 11.5mm spacers (one either side) and one 0.5mm nylon washer (non drive side. It states that you do not need the two 1.6mm bearing seals that would normally sit against the bearing face.
> 
> ...


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## LeeBradySL2 (Oct 8, 2010)

PrivateAddress said:


> This is already 2 months old now, but did you ever resolve this? I was just trying to install a Rotor Power crank (power meter with 3D+ cranks and axle) on my 2012 Tarmac SL4 and just like you I found that there is no way to fit this without another 4-5 mm of spacers somewhere..... Agh. So, did you solve it and, if so, how?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Hi

Yes, all sorted. I rang Velotech who sent me out 2 x 2mm washers. 

Install was......................

Use the 2 10mm spacers that come with the crankset (approx 10mm deep I think). These go hard against the face of the bearing

Nylon washer against the left hand crank and one 2 mm washer, slide it through the bottom bracket. Fit other 10mm spacer and one 2mm spacer. Fit and torgue up driveside and then take up the small amount of play using the adjuster on the non drive side. Job sorted


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## c-bear (Jun 4, 2012)

Spacers + Spacers - any moveable parts are just potential problem points.
It works of course, for how long?
To start off there is this 10mm+ spacers, then add another 2mm spacers 
So how far are the bearings from the crankset?
You brought this very stiff wonderful 3D+ crankset and what are u getting in the end.
I just posted in another thread. YOU should choose what crankset to go with the frame of your choice, including 3D+. The goal is have the bearings as close to the crank as possible with minimal flex to achieve the optimal power transfer. You do not need to consider c-bear
Rotor 3D+, 3DF, Race OSBB Bottom Bracket|C-BEAR.COM Ceramic Bearings 4 Bicyles, 
but please rethink what you are doing.


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## LeeBradySL2 (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi C Bear

To be honest I was considering the C Bear BB. Looking at the picture of the BB I can now see what you mean in that the bearings are further out and the spacers I am currently using are actually part of the C Bear BB and behind the beraings as opposed to in front of them.

Can you just confirm a couple of questions please before I spend my hear earned cash

1. When installed to my SL4 OSBB frame will I need any spacers or is it an absolute direct fit for of my 3d+ and a quick turn of the preload nut on the non drive side crank?
2. When installing the BB am I to use loctite bearing retaining compound? On my Cervelo R5 this was an absolute recommendation for an aluminium BB being installed into carbon frames?
3. I cant seem to order one from your website, can you help with my order? (Im in the UK)

Many thanks
Lee


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## LeeBradySL2 (Oct 8, 2010)

LeeBradySL2 said:


> Hi C Bear
> 
> To be honest I was considering the C Bear BB. Looking at the picture of the BB I can now see what you mean in that the bearings are further out and the spacers I am currently using are actually part of the C Bear BB and behind the beraings as opposed to in front of them.
> 
> ...


All sorted thanks to C Bear, much better designed BB on its way to me and will be fitted as soon as it arrives. Ill post pics so it helps anyone else with the same query.


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

C-Bear rocks. That's what I use.


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## LeeBradySL2 (Oct 8, 2010)

BB arrived yesterday morning, fitted and silky smooth. No spacers required for 3d+, In my opinion the best designed BB out there for OSBB SL4 and Rotor 3D+.


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## c-bear (Jun 4, 2012)

LeeBradySL2 thks for trying c-bear osbb-3d+, and emailing us the photos, see
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.368648466598184.1073741830.126424857487214&type=3

cyclin Dan thks for your continual support

And Ben, if you called us from reading this forum, pls call again,I could not call u back. I must have written down a wrong number, sorry


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

LeeBradySL2 said:


> BB arrived yesterday morning, fitted and silky smooth. No spacers required for 3d+, In my opinion the best designed BB out there for OSBB SL4 and Rotor 3D+.


Hello. This is an old thread, but I have the same problem with mine. I only got one question, if you're still out there. Did you notice any problems with the chain alignment what so ever, when you used this bottom bracket? I'm about to mount a 3D+ power crank on a 2014 SL4 S-Works with Shimano DA DI2 9000 (11 speed). And I'm afraid that the alignment is misplaced if the crank comes to far out from the original position. 
C-bear BB adds about 2mm on the drive-side and on the non drive-side, right?


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Pope-77 said:


> Hello. This is an old thread, but I have the same problem with mine. I only got one question, if you're still out there. Did you notice any problems with the chain alignment what so ever, when you used this bottom bracket? I'm about to mount a 3D+ power crank on a 2014 SL4 S-Works with Shimano DA DI2 9000 (11 speed). And I'm afraid that the alignment is misplaced if the crank comes to far out from the original position.
> C-bear BB adds about 2mm on the drive-side and on the non drive-side, right?


I personally wouldn't mount a Rotor 3D+ crank with PM to a Specialized bike. So you are swimming upstream. Why put a $2K crank on a $5K bike when the crank is designed for BB86? Its a long spindle crank on a short spindle bike. 
First you have to identify which bike you have? Sworks with 61mm wide version of PF30 or SL4 Pro or below with BB30. You will need spacers no matter how you cut it unless you further break the piggy bank and buy a C-bear or equivalent BB 'converter' which moves the bearings outside the BB shell. FWIW the C-bear rep who comes here is wrong about using spacers on a conventional PF30. He is here to sell his product. I am not. I am a ME and understand free body forces and moments of inertia. He doesn't. There is nothing wrong with spacing out the Rotor 3D+ keeping std PF/BB30 bearings inside the BB shell. In fact there are tens of thousands DA cranks sold on Specialized bikes with this exact arrangement i.e. bearings inside the BB shell with same length GXP external bearing spindle and wheel manufacturing spacers to take up the spacing of a longer spindle. Only difference in this case is the Rotor crank has a 30mm spindle which doesn't change the force balance. Plus is is A LOT less money than any sort of BB that relocates the bearings to outside the shell.


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

Well. I did not get any information from Specialized or Rotor that this would be a problem. So, at the point where I decided to buy this I had no thought regarding these problems (sadly)..
But this is what I've got and I'm sure going to make this work 
I got the spacers so I can fill out the gap between crank arm and the spacer that is originally there (according to Rotor instruction booklet). This is 2 pieces à 2-3 mm.

My original question was: Am I to put one on each side of the crank or both on one side only? If so, what side?
Or....Does it have anything to say at all? I'm afraid that the spacers may result in a different chain line and that the gear would not work properly.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Pope-77 said:


> Well. I did not get any information from Specialized or Rotor that this would be a problem. So, at the point where I decided to buy this I had no thought regarding these problems (sadly)..
> But this is what I've got and I'm sure going to make this work
> I got the spacers so I can fill out the gap between crank arm and the spacer that is originally there (according to Rotor instruction booklet). This is 2 pieces à 2-3 mm.
> 
> ...


It isn't a problem. It just isn't perhaps the best choice of crank for your frameset.
The 3D+ crank is an effort to be a jack of all trades crank and perhaps only master of a BB86...but not PF/BB30 as with a Specialized bike. But there is no foul to running spacers as discussed and to me a vastly preferred method to spending a $100+ on a BB which relocated the bearings to the outside of the BB shell to eliminate spacers. This is a false economy is the point.
As to your question, this is easily resolved...three fold.
1. send an email to Rotor and ask them about your combination.
2. send an email to Specialized and ask them about spacing.
3. build it and try it. This is simple. The best way to evaluate chainline and X-chaining forgiveness is to build a given combination and try it on the stand. This only takes a few minutes. I personally would start with the crank as close as possible to the BB, i.e. place both 2mm spacers on the non drive side. This promotes a better chainline for the Big chainring and Biggest cog in back when X-chaining.
If you don't get optimal shift performance on Small chainring/Smallest cog X-chain, then remove crank and place a 2mm spacer on each side.

4. You want to be more scientific? When you email Specialized and Rotor customer service, ask them what mm chainline is preferred. This is best answered by Specialized because it is more frameset geometry dependent. Also propensity to X-chaining is affected by chainstay length...bigger frames tend to be more forgiving on chainline. 

So above are your options and let us what you learn and how it goes.

PS: you need to answer the question about exactly what bike you have. Is your bike a Sworks bike?...or SL4 Pro or Expert?


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

It's an 2014 S-Works size 54 (Not so forgiving then I guess :/ ).
The DI2 is in the mail as we speak, so I'm just trying to get prepared as I've heard that it might be problematic to get the gear run like they are supposed to, if I "off-center" it to mutch.
But the question I've been working on for some time now.

I've sendt the question to Specialized some time ago, but got no answer yet. I will try one more time, but add the "mm chainline" point.
I haven't sent anything to Rotor yet. So I'll try that too. 
I agree that to check by actually mount it and try it, is the best thing.
Off course I got a little higher blood ressure than normal when I got the impression that the crank was going to get alot less stiffer without the BB from C-bear.
I must say that it sound strange to actually take out the bearings from the original housing for only 3-4 mm of spacing. But then again, what do I know...

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know what solution worked for me 

Cheers from Norway (freezing by the way..... Spring, where are you???!!)


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Pope-77 said:


> It's an 2014 S-Works size 54 (Not so forgiving then I guess :/ ).
> The DI2 is in the mail as we speak, so I'm just trying to get prepared as I've heard that it might be problematic to get the gear run like they are supposed to, if I "off-center" it to mutch.
> But the question I've been working on for some time now.
> 
> ...


A couple of points to my freezing friend in Norway from a guy who has just moved to the deep south of the US so he can cycle year around. Btw, the entire continental US is going through unheard of low temperatures so artic temps maybe worldwide in spite of global warming.  I do believe Australia is pretty toasty where they just held their tennis Open. 

First point. If the frame is new and came with Delrin bushings and bearings installed, don't touch it. If the frame is used, knock out the bushings/bearings and reinstall bushings with epoxy to mitigate any creaking. Specialized now spec's a low shear strength epoxy for the Sworks BB's which makes the Delrin bushings much better supported to not move and break down. Effectively it turns their narrow version of PF30 into a carbon/Delrin composite.

Second point is, and perhaps you will understand the sensitivity of this, it is very hard to debate a guy like the C-bear rep who comes here to sell his products. C-bear creates products they believe are a better alternative to other product offerings out there. This is their technical opinion and they offer a variety of BB's and sometimes they are right. For example if you have a Campy crank and a PF/BB 30 bike, then a BSA sleeve makes a fair amount of sense. But then there is price. Sram and FSA offer essentially the same product for 25% but without ceramic bearings. But who needs ceramic bearings? What true benefit do they have? Is the cost/benefit worth it to the average cyclist? These are debatable points.
Point is you will be fine with your set up. Sworks bikes are among the best in the world as are Rotor cranks and Di2. So it will be an outstanding bike. Stick with your std Sworks bearings, add spacers and you will be good to go.
Cheers.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

> y original question was: Am I to put one on each side of the crank or both on one side only? If so, what side?
> Or....Does it have anything to say at all? I'm afraid that the spacers may result in a different chain line and that the gear would not work properly.


The standard Shimano Chainline is 43.5mm measured to the centreline between the chainrings.

If your new setup does that, then you should be OK.

All About Bicycle Chainline


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> The standard Shimano Chainline is 43.5mm measured to the centreline between the chainrings.
> 
> If your new setup does that, then you should be OK.
> 
> All About Bicycle Chainline


Agree. OP you will be fine with bikerjulio's comment about chainline.

OP, how about you do a simple test that will take three minutes. You don't have to completely mount the crank to test the chainline. With left crank arm off, put the large spacer on the drive side and without the 2mm spacer push the crank spindle through the BB and against the drive side of the BB, take a scale and measure the chainline between the two chainrings to the center of the seat tube. Let us know what his dimension is.


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

This is the answer I got from Specialized:
""Thank you for your enquiry. I am sorry to say we do not recommend the use of Rotor cranks with our frames.
Our frames are designed to work with our cranks and those from Shimano, Sram and Campag Ultratorque.

I am sorry I cannot give you the information you require."

The same question is sent to Rotor. Still waiting for a reply to that.

I asked specialized what mm chainstay they recommend with a Shimano cranck. No answer yet.


But now I've got all the bits and pieces so my bike is complete. I will try the more mechanical solutions mentioned here after mounting everything.
I hope this thread can be preventive for someone out there 

Cheers. Have a nice one!
And for those lucky bastards that live in hot conditions: Ride safe!


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Pope-77 said:


> This is the answer I got from Specialized:
> ""Thank you for your enquiry. I am sorry to say we do not recommend the use of Rotor cranks with our frames.
> Our frames are designed to work with our cranks and those from Shimano, Sram and Campag Ultratorque.
> 
> ...


I will tell you that the desk jockey that wrote that response is pretty clueless.
Even though I personally wouldn't purchase a Rotor 3D+ crank to mount to a Specialized frameset because the 3D+ has a longer spindle and they designed it to universally fit a BB386 and BB/PF30, I will tell you, it will mount a lot more effectively than any Campy UT crank. So the response you got is BS. Further Campy basically copied the Rotor 3D+ crank with new their new OverTorque crank which is also a longer spindle to fit both BB386 and BB/PF30. 
So Pope, do NOT sweat this response. You will have no problem spacing your Rotor cranks to work with your Sworks bike. Use generic 30mm spacers if necessary. Check chainline to 43.5mm as Biker Julio suggested.
HTH.


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> The standard Shimano Chainline is 43.5mm measured to the centreline between the chainrings.
> 
> If your new setup does that, then you should be OK.
> 
> All About Bicycle Chainline


My chainline is 43,5 when I use an extra spacer (aprox 2,5mm) along with the original one from Rotor (aprox 11mm). Total 13,5mm. I need to use 13,5mm on each side of the BB. I have not installed the cassette or chain. But tonight I hope I will try the whole thing! X my fingers!


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Pope-77 said:


> My chainline is 43,5 when I use an extra spacer (aprox 2,5mm) along with the original one from Rotor (aprox 11mm). Total 13,5mm. I need to use 13,5mm on each side of the BB. I have not installed the cassette or chain. But tonight I hope I will try the whole thing! X my fingers!


I Don't know anything about these really, but I did look up the instructions. The DS gets a 11.5mm spacer plus a 1.6mm seal. NDS gets those plus a 1mm spacer. http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/pdf/3dplus_bb30_manual_12-8-10.pdf


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

This is the answer from Rotor.

Hi Pal:

First of all we appreciate your interest in our products. To answer your question.
In order to have correct chainline you should assemble it *with 2 extra spacers of 2.5 mm* on each side.
It should be OK.
If you have any additional question, don’t hesitate to contact us.

Best regards:


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Pope,
Sadly, you have to be really careful the advice you get from the customer service guys. Like the advice you got from Specialized which was complete BS. Of course the engineers at Specialized and Rotor know what's up but the guys who respond to emails are lower price guys sometimes without a clue.
That said, have a look at the drawing below which shows the dimensions for BB30. I am very dubious about any 'extra' spacers. The bike you have which is narrow version of PF30 which Specialized coins carbon OSBB has identical spacing to standard BB30 in terms of 'bearing position' aka distance apart.

So lets do some quick math:

distance between snap rings = 48.5mm
+
2mm (1mm per snap ring)
+ 
14mm (BB30 bearings are 30 x 42 x7mm)
_____________________
*64.5mm
*
This is the outside dimension of bearing to bearing.

So what to do in your case if you want to confirm this. With bearings pressed in place, you can take a narrow rod, push it through the bearings holes, mark it and measure it. Vernier calipers make it easier of course, but this dimension is the same for both your Sworks frame and any BB30 frame that Specialized and other bike makers produce.

So you don't need any extra spacers for your Sworks bike other than what is spec'ed for BB30. Of course you will need the spacers on both sides because your Rotor 3D+ crank is designed for a BB386 which is 86mm wide and not 68mm. You should use the standard BB30 spacers however.
If you get lost in any of this, and one of the reasons I gave you that dimension is, you can assemble the crank outside the BB and measure the spindle length. Keep in mind you want to adjust the preload of the crank to its 'middle position' when performing this exercise. This allows nominal adjustability when you assemble the crank to the bike with correct amount of spacers on each side. If you don't do this, you don't know where you are in the range of preload adjustment. Measuring the spindle length and subtracting the 64.5mm dimension will tell you the aggregate spacing you need combining both sides. Of course chain line determines any more or less spacing on either side, but you will know what total spacer width you need.
HTH.






Pope-77 said:


> This is the answer from Rotor.
> 
> Hi Pal:
> 
> ...


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## Pope-77 (Jan 29, 2014)

roadworthy said:


> Pope,
> Sadly, you have to be really careful the advice you get from the customer service guys. Like the advice you got from Specialized which was complete BS. Of course the engineers at Specialized and Rotor know what's up but the guys who respond to emails are lower price guys sometimes without a clue.
> That said, have a look at the drawing below which shows the dimensions for BB30. I am very dubious about any 'extra' spacers. The bike you have which is narrow version of PF30 which Specialized coins carbon OSBB has identical spacing to standard BB30 in terms of 'bearing position' aka distance apart.
> 
> ...


Ok. Thanx again.

I will measure it with this method and see what I get. Right now I've mounted an extra spacer of approx 2,5 mm on each side. I need to fine-tune the gear, but so long it works "OK". But I will check out this method before I take it out on the road ( hmm.. It will be some time til that by the way, cause now it's snowing).

I'll get back to you about the result.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

Pope-77 said:


> Ok. Thanx again.
> 
> I will measure it with this method and see what I get. Right now I've mounted an extra spacer of approx 2,5 mm on each side. I need to fine-tune the gear, but so long it works "OK". But I will check out this method before I take it out on the road ( hmm.. It will be some time til that by the way, cause now it's snowing).
> 
> I'll get back to you about the result.


If its snowing, you have a bit of time to tinker and learn about optimal spacing.
I suggest you remove the crank and measure the bearing distance across...outside to outside as discussed. Here is the important thing. You want to minimize your Q-factor so you maybe needlessly running the extra bearing spacing per the questionable input you received from Rotor. Again, your bike shouldn't be spaced any different than any std. BB30 bike out there...any brand. Rotor should have known this.
You want to assemble the crank off the bike 'with preload adjusted to its middle range'.
In quotes is key. For example, you may be needlessly running two extra spacers and have your preload near the end of its adjustment range.
Please come back and update us with what you learn.
Best of luck.


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