# Welded vs. Sleeved or Pinned Rims



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Hi all,

Looking around the internet, the only complaints I see about sleeved or pinned rims is from mountain bikers who beat up on their rims a lot.

So for the rest of us, are there any differences between these methods of manufacture besides about $50 per rim? And if that is the only difference, why don't more rim makers go to sleeved or pinned to save on costs?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Looking around the internet, the only complaints I see about sleeved or pinned rims is from mountain bikers who beat up on their rims a lot.
> 
> So for the rest of us, are there any differences between these methods of manufacture besides about $50 per rim? And if that is the only difference, why don't more rim makers go to sleeved or pinned to save on costs?


You can buy welded rims for cheap. What leads you to believe a pinned rim would necessarily be cheaper? It might have been in 1992, but manufacturing has changed as well as consumer expectation of how a brake track should feel.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

With pinned rims, often the ends don't quite line up perfectly and you may feel a little "tick" as the seam passes through the brake pads. Some rims have their sidewalls machined after pinning, which minimizes and sometimes eliminates the problem. If I notice a problem on a pinned rim, I smooth the joint with some sandpaper.

With welded rims, they HAVE to machine the sidewalls after welding, virtually guaranteeing a smooth sidewall.

I have often wondered whether the weight of the splice in pinned rims causes an out of balance condition which leads to front end shimmy. I have no proof to back up my suspicion, however.

That's been my experience. I don't bother to consider the construction of the rim when I buy them. Pinned vs. welded has never been an issue that couldn't be surmounted.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Peter P. said:


> With pinned rims, often the ends don't quite line up perfectly and you may feel a little "tick" as the seam passes through the brake pads. Some rims have their sidewalls machined after pinning, which minimizes and sometimes eliminates the problem. If I notice a problem on a pinned rim, I smooth the joint with some sandpaper.


I did notice a very slight "tick, tick tick" on my DT R460s for about 200 miles after I built them. The brakes eventually smoothed the joints out and the noise went away.



Peter P. said:


> I have often wondered whether the weight of the splice in pinned rims causes an out of balance condition which leads to front end shimmy.


Nope, never noticed this on any welded rims I own. It is only evident in the truing stand. Once a tire is mounted, the weight of the valve offsets any weight of the joint. I have never noticed any shimmy.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Lombard said:


> I did notice a very slight "tick, tick tick" on my DT R460s for about 200 miles after I built them. The brakes eventually smoothed the joints out and the noise went away.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, never noticed this on any welded rims I own. It is only evident in the truing stand. Once a tire is mounted, the weight of the valve offsets any weight of the joint. I have never noticed any shimmy.


Most people have never experience high speed shimmy. But once you do it is unforgettable. Peter is saying that out of balance rims could contribute, but since no one knows for sure what causes shimmy, it is a guess.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Welded rims are generally better, but sleeved or pinned rims usually are good enough. Even if the sleeved rims are less expensive and good enough, many riders just want a better rim and the cost is usually not much more, all other things being equal (weight, width, depth).

Now something like a ceramic bearing can cost much more than a chromoly bearing so you're not going to find as many riders willing to pay such a premium for these when the chromoly bearing is good enough.


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## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

I have a set of sleeved rims and even with a tire, and tube and valve, the unbalance from the sleeve can be noticed where it falls spinning the wheel in the air, but never on the road. 

I've felt your 'shimmy', and IME it was always a result of the tire being broken or mounted badly. Maybe for you it was because you're way, way faster than me, a lot of people are. 

So IME a sleeved rim doesn't make any difference when you're riding.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Kontact said:


> Most people have never experience high speed shimmy. But once you do it is unforgettable. Peter is saying that out of balance rims could contribute, but since no one knows for sure what causes shimmy, it is a guess.


In order for wheel imbalance to cause shimmy, the force of the rotating imbalance would have to be sufficient to actually deform the tire every time it came around. No way does this happen.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> In order for wheel imbalance to cause shimmy, the force of the rotating imbalance would have to be sufficient to actually deform the tire every time it came around. No way does this happen.


A lot smarter people than you and me have investigated high speed shimmy, and they don't know exactly what causes it. Why do you think you know?

Clearly, shimmy is a type of resonance, probably involving the operator. But its origins on some bikes but not others has never been clear.

Spectrum Cycles | Geometry


It isn't that pinned rims _cause _shimmy, or that if they do it is a balance thing. It could be a flex thing, too. But a pinned rim adds more variables to the system than a welded rim.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

Peter P. said:


> With welded rims, they HAVE to machine the sidewalls after welding, virtually guaranteeing a smooth sidewall.


Not necessarily. Our disc brake rims are a welded seam and are not machined at all. There is grinding that happens on every welded seam to remove the metal flash afterwards. We do sandblasting on the rims which helps to smooth out any inconsistencies and make for a smoother finish. It also allows more anodization to sleep into the rim.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

coachboyd said:


> Not necessarily. Our disc brake rims are a welded seam and are not machined at all. There is grinding that happens on every welded seam to remove the metal flash afterwards. We do sandblasting on the rims which helps to smooth out any inconsistencies and make for a smoother finish. It also allows more anodization to sleep into the rim.


Why would anyone riding disks care about the benefit of a machined sidewall?

The point Peter was making was a rim brake benefit of welded rims.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

More even spoke tension
Stronger seam
Cleaner looking

That's why we wanted to do the welded seam on both rim and disc brake rims.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

coachboyd said:


> *More even spoke tension*
> Stronger seam
> Cleaner looking
> 
> That's why we wanted to do the welded seam on both rim and disc brake rims.


I built up a pair of wheels with the sleeved DT Swiss R460s last winter. Spoke tensions were just as even as the welded HED C2s I built the year before. Just saying.


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## Veloptuous (Oct 13, 2017)

Either way you go you are bound to find cheaply made rims and high quality rims using both joining techniques. I believe the quality of the build or joining is what will make the difference specifically with regards to strength of the rim and any noticeable tick or grabbing on the breaking surface.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Kontact said:


> A lot smarter people than you and me have investigated high speed shimmy, and they don't know exactly what causes it. Why do you think you know?
> 
> Clearly, shimmy is a type of resonance, probably involving the operator. But its origins on some bikes but not others has never been clear.
> 
> ...


Curious that you somehow know how smart I am. 

Your point is correct, that shimmy is a complex resonance problem that has not yielded to simple analysis, but this does not alter my point that wheel weight imbalance would have to be sufficient to cause tire deflection in order for it to be a trigger for shimmy.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> Curious that you somehow know how smart I am.
> 
> Your point is correct, that shimmy is a complex resonance problem that has not yielded to simple analysis, but this does not alter my point that wheel weight imbalance would have to be sufficient to cause tire deflection in order for it to be a trigger for shimmy.


You are smart, but apparently haven't heard that figure of speech before.

Where did you read tire deflection would be required? And why wouldn't an imbalance be enough to cause the already contantly variable tire deflection to change?

Shimmy is speed related, which means that it has something to do with either road noise, steering or wheel rotation.

For all we know, the seamed rims may flex _out_ under high speeds at the seam, creating a "bump" on the wheel that feeds back. That wouldn't require the tire to do anything different than it already does.

I just think there are too many variables to start dismissing any as "impossible".


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Kontact said:


> And why wouldn't an imbalance be enough to cause the already contantly variable tire deflection to change?


I believe the balance would have to be pretty far out and the speed pretty high (as in 40+mph) for you to feel a wheel imbalance while riding.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Lombard said:


> I believe the balance would have to be pretty far out and the speed pretty high (as in 40+mph) for you to feel a wheel imbalance while riding.


No one who gets into shimmy reports "feeling" anything before it starts.


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## bobf (Apr 3, 2015)

I have felt wheel imbalance w/o feeling shimmy. For a while back in the 70's I rode a Schwinn Super Sport that came with the then-brand-new feature of spoke reflectors. Unlike those of today, they were heavy enough to unbalance the wheels quite a lot. When I got up to 20mph or so, and if the reflectors on the wheels were lined up, I could feel a front/back surge in time with wheel rotation. It went away when I took the reflectors off. I never felt any up/down bounce or sidewise shimmy.

I've also scared the bejeezus out of myself with a shimmy on a different bike. It was one of the first times I ever approached a big, downhill curve at something north of 20mph. Not a big deal today, but at the time my novelty meter was pegged. My handlebars got to wiggling a good 1 or 2 inches at the ends at what felt like 100 cycles per minute, and it seemed like the whole frame was flexing side to side like noodle. I was convinced my bike had broken somehow and that I was headed for the ER at best. When after an eternal 8 seconds I managed to stop I was shocked to find my bike and body both intact. 

Turns out I didn't know how to relax my arms in a big, fast curve. The shimmy started when I began to clutch and it got worse as I began to panic. Nowadays, through a combination of practice, better bike fit, and more dependable brakes I'm a lot more relaxed.

I'm of the opinion that wheel imbalance has to be pretty strong before it matters, and you'll feel a front/back oscillation before anything else happens. Also, while I know close to zero about any theory behind shimmy, I'm convinced that the rider's arms and upper body, combined with bike geometry, are the dominant factors.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Kontact said:


> You are smart, but apparently haven't heard that figure of speech before.
> 
> Where did you read tire deflection would be required? And why wouldn't an imbalance be enough to cause the already contantly variable tire deflection to change?
> 
> ...


You don't have to "read" that tire deflection would be required to induce shimmy. Shimmy is a resonance, and in order to trigger a resonance you need a forcing function. If wheel imbalance is to be that forcing function, then it needs to induce movement that is transmitted into the bike/rider system. In order for that to happen, the tire must be deflecting as a result of the wheel imbalance. Note this is vertical deflection due to weight, not lateral deflection due to an out of true wheel.

You seem to take the "argue from ignorance" approach that "anything could be the cause so even logic cannot be used to argue against it."

"For all we know"? For all we know, God looks down on us and punishes sinners by inducing shimmy. But that would make no sense. Let's use reason, logic, and fundamental physics instead.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> You don't have to "read" that tire deflection would be required to induce shimmy. Shimmy is a resonance, and in order to trigger a resonance you need a forcing function. If wheel imbalance is to be that forcing function, then it needs to induce movement that is transmitted into the bike/rider system. In order for that to happen, the tire must be deflecting as a result of the wheel imbalance. Note this is vertical deflection due to weight, not lateral deflection due to an out of true wheel.
> 
> You seem to take the "argue from ignorance" approach that "anything could be the cause so even logic cannot be used to argue against it."
> 
> "For all we know"? For all we know, God looks down on us and punishes sinners by inducing shimmy. But that would make no sense. Let's use reason, logic, and fundamental physics instead.


What you seem to be missing is that the tire is already deflected at the contact patch, and an imbalance doesn't need to further compress the tire, it can also momentarily decompress the tire.

The other factor that I mentioned is that the tire doesn't have to change deflection (increase or decrease), it can change roundness if the seam bows out. And those are just vertical effects that ignore phase lag that could induce a fore-aft shimmy from a vertical input.

I'm not "arguing from ignorance", I'm saying that you've decided that wheels and tires only behave one certain way and have discounted all the other ways that a dynamic pneumatic/tension/compression structure can change shape in rotation. I don't know why you think a tire that is compressed can only compress more or that a pinned seam can't act as a joint, but as you're now stooping to ad hominem, I think you don't have any idea what you're saying and are merely being a defensive grouch.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

changingleaf said:


> Welded rims are generally better, but sleeved or pinned rims usually are good enough. Even if the sleeved rims are less expensive and good enough, many riders just want a better rim and the cost is usually not much more, all other things being equal (weight, width, depth).


On the same page ^

Also don't think anyone mentioned yet - some sleeved rims have a reputation for the pinned area getting loose over time, and make annoying rattle noises. Mavic Open Pro rims come to mind, but there are others. 
Sure you can re-pin, glue, whatever, but all things equal...I prefer welded for the long haul.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Open Pros are welded.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Mackers said:


> Open Pros are welded.


OK, I guess I should have known that, I have a set downstairs on my indoor trainer bike. 
A percentage of them rattle over time with decent mileage. The sleeve used to pin the rim together (before welding), can work free and rattle.
So I guess it's not a welded versus pinned issue, my bad.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Z'mer said:


> OK, I guess I should have known that, I have a set downstairs on my indoor trainer bike.
> A percentage of them rattle over time with decent mileage. The sleeve used to pin the rim together (before welding), can work free and rattle.
> So I guess it's not a welded versus pinned issue, my bad.


Are you sure it's not the eyelets that are rattling? I believe they are known to do that.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Are you sure it's not the eyelets that are rattling? I believe they are known to do that.


With spoke tension on them?


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Are you sure it's not the eyelets that are rattling? I believe they are known to do that.


The pin coming loose at the seam, welded or not, is a pretty well known problem on some rims. Discussed here and elsewhere in the past
BTW, Pacenti SL23 also are known for doing this, see last link

noisy rebuilt wheel

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=925036&postcount=6

Pacenti SL23 Issue - Update with solution in first post - Weight Weenies


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