# Campy UT BB Loctite or Grease?



## Nacracer (Oct 27, 2005)

Campy installation says the preferred installation of the UT BB is Loctite. Can anyone confirm that this is really true? I have heard a few cons to this over grease. Thanks for your comments.


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## tjcoogan (Mar 4, 2008)

New Record BB cups come pre-impregnated with a small ring of yellow thread lock (I assume) However when you watch the Campy Bike 2007 UT recommended fitting video they show the use of extreme amounts of Loctite 222 being used.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*grease....*

I've installed two sets of Campy UT cups this year and the right side cup on both sets had a large amount of yellow thread locker material on the threads. There's no point at all in using loctite, with the amount of this stuff they put on the threads. The last pair I put on required about 15 lbs of torque just to turn the cups, before the shoulder touched the face of the BB shell. I torqued mine on up to 30 lbs and I'm sure that they won't come loose.

The loctite method might be OK if the yellow thread locker is removed or becomes ineffective on a second installation, but I would not use it initially.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

i've used grease before, and now i use loctite... listen to campy... they used to recommend both, now they say only loctite... they may know something about their own product...

IME, i much prefer the loctite... what's the drawback? grease was messy, loctite is NOT hard to remove (i did it recently due to a warrantied cracked frame)... its much cleaner and keeps everything in place.... grease always seemed to leak and cause a mess on very hot days over here... i really don't like to use it anymore on my bike for fixing bolts/cups etc...


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*the instructions...*

I just got a 2008 crank a few months ago and my instructions listed the loctite method as the alternate. The preferred method included chasing and facing the BB shell, followed by torqueing the cups. 

As I stated, if there is a large amount of yellow thread locker on the cup threads, using loctite make no sense. If you read loctite instructions, the threads should be clean, dry and free of foreign material before it is applied. 

If loctite is use, all of the yellow thread locker should be removed with a rotary wire brush. You don't want two different products trying to do the same job.

Grease is messy?


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

*Campy website*

The Campagnolo website has the latest version of the Ultra-Torque installlation instructions and they list the loctite 222 hand tighten as the preferred method now. Tightening with a wrench to 35 Nm is now the standard method. Both require BB facing before installation. The third method is when the frame can't be faced/chased, to install with loctite 222 and hand tighten.

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/7225447 - Ultra torque-04-08.pdf

The original instructions did not have the face/chase/loctite method listed at all. Face/chase and torque to 35 Nm was the preferred method. Who knows why they changed, but using loctite and hand-tightening BB cups seems kind of stupid to me. I just installed a UT crankset on a frame that was faced and chased and I used my traditional method of Phil Wood grease on the threads and torqued to spec. I also coated those UT bearings and the bearing seats in the cups with a healthy dose of Phil. I guess we will see how my setup does.


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## chas0039 (Jun 26, 2007)

Does anyone have an opinion on the use of Teflon tape? A number of non-Campy sources seem to recommend it.


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## capt_phun (Jun 14, 2004)

The method stated by Eric_H is what I did after originally greasing but still getting a ticking from the BB. Once I did the loctite 222 & let it dry for 48 hours (long time but makes a difference), all is quiet.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm getting a creak when standing, with the right hand crank arm in the forward horizontal position. I don't know how the BB cups were previously installed, but I can remove, make sure the frame is properly faced (it should be, with a machined Ti BB insert, and no paint), and use liberal Loctite 222 and hand-tighten the cups.

The Campy instructions (link above) say you can also use 222 on the fixing bolt threads, but do not mention using grease when inserting the BB bearings into the cups. It is a snug clearance fit, so I can see that being a potential source of noise. Any particular recommendations, there?


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

yes, u can lube the bearing face and shell with a quality teflon grease - it can't hurt and may silence what you are experiencing...

as noted above, i use loctite 222 for the cups and the fixing bolt, tho i do use the hand BB tool (shimano) to snug the cups only finger tight... just easier if you have that tool, but not essential (but is if you wanna take those cups off)

i always torque the fixing bolt. correct range is on the bolt face.. (40nm?)


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I'll try the grease on the bearing. I didn't install the cups, originally, but I did swap cranks (from Chorus 175 to Record 180). I think I used a little light grease on the wave washer, but not in the cups. I do have one of the short Shimano cup spanners that they used to include with the cranks, so assuming I can get the cups out with that, it should be fine for installation. It does seem odd to me that the preferred technique would be to not torque the cups. 

40Nm (31ft*lb) is correct for the fixing bolt. I don't think Loctite should be needed, there.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*no loctite...*

I highly recommend against using loctite. Grease the cup threads and tighten to 35Nm. Grease all metal to metal contact areas.

To use loctite properly, all of the factory thread locker must be removed and both threads must be very clean. Hand tightening would be stupid. I'd apply at least 5-10Nm of torque, even with loctite. The bike must not be ridden for at least 24 hours after the cups are installed - perhaps longer. Read the loctite instructions.

Creaks can come from the chainring mounting bolt area too. Apply some WD-40 or other light lube of your choice to the mounting bolt areas.

I've also had a rear skewer creak. Some lube and a tighter setting fixed that.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

I would guess the hand tight Loctite method is intended to put the cups aligned with thread axis instead of aligning cups and bearings with the possibly non-parallel unfaced BB ends. Aligning with unfaced ends is a potential cause of the sporadic bearing problems reported.

I don't blame anyone for deciding to put cups on tight -I would torque also unless I was suspicious of my BB face. I have a Madone w/o cups so I don't use cups to have all this fun.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

oh yeah, but it is a sloppy mechanic who doesn't check facing...

that and a lot of shells these days are cnc machined alu shells inserted into carbon frames...


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

fallzboater said:


> I'm getting a creak when standing, with the right hand crank arm in the forward horizontal position. ...


Creak sounds can be deceptive. Recently I had creaking when pedalling out of saddle, that I swore was BB related, as did riders next to me.

Turned out to be a front hub/ fork interface problem!

Light grease on fork's lug/dropout contact surfaces, and generous grease on QR skewer, fixed it.


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## ericjacobsen3 (Apr 27, 2007)

*Sloppy mechanic*

In a good shop, yes you could argue only a sloppy mechanic doesn't check facing. The guy excited about his Campy group that came in the mail from England usually isn't going to have tools to check facing and is even less likely to have tools to face a shell. Maybe for once Campy is thinking about what is practically possible for many people.

Having said that, I don't like at all the idea of finger tight cups as Campy suggests, even with loctite.




wankski said:


> oh yeah, but it is a sloppy mechanic who doesn't check facing...
> 
> that and a lot of shells these days are cnc machined alu shells inserted into carbon frames...


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

This is a carbon frame with machined Ti insert. I was able to easily remove the cups with the short Shimano cup spanner, so I believe the installation torque was low (I bought it as a complete used bike). The threads did have some (copper-colored) anti-seize on them. Unfortunately, none of the three small LBSs in town had a tool for sale to allow me to use my torque wrench, but all three did have it in the shop, so I had one wipe out the threads and apply more anti-seize, and torque it to 35Nm. I then smeared some Phil grease in the cups and reinstalled the cranks. That seems to have taken care of the creak, but we'll have to see how long it stays quiet. I also e-mailed the frame mfg (Parlee), and they recommended anti-seize. If it doesn't keep it quiet for long, I'll try the Loctite method, next.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Well, it was quiet for maybe 150 miles, now creaking again out of the saddle. I haven't worked out whether it's between the bearings and cups, or cups and frame, yet.


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## Nacracer (Oct 27, 2005)

*No Fix*

My whole team was fitted with Campy when i originally posted this back in '08. I can tell you that all our BB's would creak at one point or another. The creak will always come back because the UT is a bad design. What's creaking is the bearing inside the bb cup. You can try new cups and that will help for a very short time....but it will come back. The only way to truly stop it is to go with a different brand crank and BB. Sorry.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

Nacracer said:


> My whole team was fitted with Campy when i originally posted this back in '08. I can tell you that all our BB's would creak at one point or another. The creak will always come back because the UT is a bad design. What's creaking is the bearing inside the bb cup. You can try new cups and that will help for a very short time....but it will come back. The only way to truly stop it is to go with a different brand crank and BB. Sorry.


Yeah, that's not really what I wanted to hear. I'll try a heavier axle grease and see if that keeps them quiet longer. I wonder if the Super Record cups, which are anodized, would be better or worse than the nickel-plated ones. It seems like the SR could be made to a tighter tolerance, since the plating thickness must have some variability.

I use 180mm cranks, so I don't have a huge number of options.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Nacracer said:


> My whole team was fitted with Campy when i originally posted this back in '08. I can tell you that all our BB's would creak at one point or another. The creak will always come back because the UT is a bad design. What's creaking is the bearing inside the bb cup. You can try new cups and that will help for a very short time....but it will come back. The only way to truly stop it is to go with a different brand crank and BB. Sorry.


I don't really buy this ... after 3K miles my Chorus11 crank is still quiet.

As several have mentioned above, it's essential that all metal-metal contact surfaces , including the Hirth joint and inside of both cups, be liberally coated with medium weight grease (eg, Park Tool blue grease), and everything torqued to spec. 

Both cups' threads should be liberally coated with grease (or antiseize when mandated), and torqued to spec (not by "feel" !!)

Of course, verify crank's driveside spring clip and non-driveside wave washer are properly in place.

Finally, the crank fixing bolt should rarely or never come loose. IIRC it has a small "belleville" style washer held captive under the bolt's head, and those washers are exceptionally good at preventing any vibration-related loosening, IF torqued to spec. Natch, lube bolt threads to ensure proper torque.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*not for me...*

I've got three bikes with Campy UT cranks and never had a single problem. There is not a design problem. In most cases, it's simply an installation problem, or a case of blaming the BB for creaks that really come from elsewhere.

All I did to insure success was verify that my BB cup faces were square to the threads (easily done with feeler gages between the cup and BB shell face), grease the threads and torque the cups to 35Nm. I also apply grease to ALL surfaces of the bearing and cups where metal to metal contact occurs.

I had a creak develop last season, so the first thing I did was lube the crank spider and chainring mounting area. That didn't fix it, so I then lubed and tightened the rear skewer. That stopped the creak, so it was never related to the crank or the BB.

I've read of people leaving the c-clip off the right side. That's a huge mistake. It's absolutely necessary for the crank to function properly. Someone once posted that the c-clip was merely a safety feature to keep the crankarm from falling off. Not true at all.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I just bought a Colnago Extreme Power frame, used,

It was delivered with the Campy UT cups on.

I want to remove them but they are very tight, I can't do it with the Shimano short tool as fallzboater said.

I am afraid to dammage the frame if I force it more.

Can anyone tell me if this is normal with this UT Cups ? Do they need a lot of force to remove ?

How can I loosen it to remove it ?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*

Remember that Colnagos are Italian threaded, so both sides have right hands threads. Campy UT cups are no different than any other outboard bearing cup, at least with regard to tightening them. The recommended torque is only 35Nm, while the old style square taper cups used 50-70Nm.

Since you bought the frame used, who knows what some idiot may have done. If they put a huge amount of blue loctite on the threads, it may be tough to remove them.

Try a cheater bar with the Shimano tool. The worst you can do is cut grooves into the splines. As a last resort, you could try a big pipe wrench, if you intend to trash the cups. The only other way to loosen-up loctite is with heat and that would also damage the frame.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks for the info, that solved the problem... it was grease only but I guess I tightened it more when I tried to put them out


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

I just ordered some SR cups for around $22 from PBK, so I'll grease everything up good and see if I have better luck than with my current nickel-plated cups.


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## fallzboater (Feb 16, 2003)

C-40 said:


> I had a creak develop last season, so the first thing I did was lube the crank spider and chainring mounting area. That didn't fix it, so I then lubed and tightened the rear skewer. That stopped the creak, so it was never related to the crank or the BB.


Good tip. I replaced my Salsa skewer with a Campy one, and my heinous BB creak disappeared. The Salsa skewer never gave me any trouble on other frames (always with the same Chris King hubs), but on this one with Ti dropouts it made some noise. Lubing it might've helped, but would probably also attract dirt. I'm still getting an occasional minor clicking when out of the saddle to track down, but I can live with it, if needed.


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