# Vino



## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

Does that mean he's out. Did you see the head nod neck cutting sign?

Hmmm no clear leaders this year for GC


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

From CN:
18:03 CEST 192.5km/7km to go
Vino is at the back looking unhappy. He gives a sign - a slice across the throat - perhaps indicating that he's done.

Non, Vino! NON!

You made it this far! just try tomorrows climb!


----------



## HokieRider (Oct 6, 2005)

I think things are looking pretty bad for Vino. Who's left as the "favorite" now? Rasmussen? Lepheimer? Piero?


----------



## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

He shook his head in a no signal just before the slicing motion


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

*ill have to watch it tonight*

was it a no as in, "no way i can keep goin on," or more like, "no way im gonna quit!"



zeytin said:


> He shook his head in a no signal just before the slicing motion


----------



## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

weltyed said:


> was it a no as in, "no way i can keep goin on," or more like, "no way im gonna quit!"



It looked like a response to a question as in "No, I'm finished"


----------



## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

zeytin said:


> It looked like a response to a question as in "No, I'm finished"


You think he is playing possum? It has happened before! :idea:


----------



## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

man, i was really hopin hed win the thing. plus i was really lookin forward to seein him in teh mountains and on the last stage.

kloden is pretty messed up, too. how will astana ride if they are both out? is salvodelli still riding for them? stage wins in the mountains?



zeytin said:


> It looked like a response to a question as in "No, I'm finished"


----------



## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

The sages don't think he'll quit.
I hope not, I like him as well.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Vino the mummy!

Man, that guy is all wrapped up... even to the fingers. If he's that injured, makes his performance yesterday quite inspiring.

Anybody got a shot of him after he got up after the crash yesterday? He slammed his fists and let out a rebel yell. I think he said MOTHER____ in kazakh.

fc


----------



## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

francois said:


> Vino the mummy!
> 
> Man, that guy is all wrapped up... even to the fingers. If he's that injured, makes his performance yesterday quite inspiring.
> 
> ...


I saw the video, you mean when he hit his legs? He looked really angry. He is really torn up I guess.


----------



## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

A man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Vino will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.


----------



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*The axe falls*

I felt horrible when I saw that, even before P&P started talking. Vino just winced, shook his head, chopped his hand like an axe, and drew it across his throat.

"That's it, I'm done." is what it looked like to me. I don't think he'd ever QUIT, per se, but I very much doubt we'll see vintage vino tomorrow.

My call: he will try and make it through the stage tomorrow, even if it's with the grupetto. If he does that, then he'll hang in and forget about the GC, try to get a stage later and / or help Kaschekin (sp?).


----------



## harlond (May 30, 2005)

From the TdF site, it does appear that he finished with the main group, though well back. Being able to finish with the main group is at least somewhat encouraging.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

HokieRider said:


> I think things are looking pretty bad for Vino. Who's left as the "favorite" now? Rasmussen? Lepheimer? Piero?


Leipheimer the only one of those I'd put as a favorite to podium, and even that would have been a great result. But with two of the likely podium finishers in Kloden and Vino on the canvas, his chances are certainly looking up.

If I had to name one favorite I'd pick Valverde now. But the likes of Karpets, Menchov, Sastre, Leipheimer can't be discounted.


----------



## Kris Flatlander (Sep 9, 2006)

HokieRider said:


> I think things are looking pretty bad for Vino. Who's left as the "favorite" now? Rasmussen?


Probably not, unless of course he has found out how to keep his TT bike upright yet


----------



## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Vino will win the stage tomorrow. Mark it down.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

FondriestFan said:


> Vino will win the stage tomorrow. Mark it down.


I highly doubt it. His injuries are probably going to be even worse for him tomorrow. If he can get thru the pain and it doesn't affect his power too much, I imagine he will just be content to follow the other favorites to limit his losses and try to recover.


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I highly doubt it. His injuries are probably going to be even worse for him tomorrow. If he can get thru the pain and it doesn't affect his power too much, I imagine he will just be content to follow the other favorites to limit his losses and try to recover.


Sleeping tonight (and for the next few nights) is going to be tough and with the mountains starting........don't look good for blondie.


----------



## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*well*



Kris Flatlander said:


> Probably not, unless of course he has found out how to keep his TT bike upright yet



and has found a way to keep himself in the same timezone as the rest of the group doing the TT......he's a mountain goat, but that's where it ends!


----------



## hookypro (Aug 1, 2006)

I thought it was the sign of the cross.....he did that at the end of a stage earlier.


----------



## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

> I highly doubt it. His injuries are probably going to be even worse for him tomorrow. If he can get thru the pain and it doesn't affect his power too much, I imagine he will just be content to follow the other favorites to limit his losses and try to recover.


You're wrong, Barry. Vino will SMASH!!

Doubters can shove it.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

hookypro said:


> I thought it was the sign of the cross.....he did that at the end of a stage earlier.


Sign of the cross is the obvious one. He made it to the end... he is thankful.

Wait, maybe the sign of the cross really has 'slash my throat' undertones.

fc


----------



## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Yep, I remember a few years ago some big name coach was doing tour commentary for Velonews or something. He said it took 3 days to recover from that kind of crash. Your body focuses on healing and not so much on bike racing.

Nevermind the problems sleeping...


----------



## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

francois said:


> Sign of the cross is the obvious one. He made it to the end... he is thankful.
> 
> Wait, maybe the sign of the cross really has 'slash my throat' undertones.
> 
> fc


If that was indeed a sign of the cross his condition is worse than anyone expected, the poor man has no control over his arms.


----------



## JohnniO (Jan 11, 2003)

zeytin said:


> I saw the video, you mean when he hit his legs? He looked really angry. He is really torn up I guess.


He was angry because he was leaking out all of the "good blood".


----------



## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

rogger said:


> If that was indeed a sign of the cross his condition is worse than anyone expected, the poor man has no control over his arms.


LOL! Exactly - Vino knows how, and that definitely wasn't the sign of the cross.

I can't see him getting past the next three days in the Alps with those injuries - little good quality sleep, body trying to heal plus the pain of doing a mountain stage in his condition. If he makes it, it'll be a bigger miracle than in Floyds '06 Tour.


----------



## flyboy50 (Mar 13, 2007)

> He was angry because he was leaking out all of the "good blood".


 

I think now Leipheimer has a great chance. If Hincapie hadn't let me down so many times before :mad2: I would be betting on him. Does anybody think George is over working and will run out of gas later? If he feels good and can keep riding fast, he could win.


----------



## SamDC (Mar 22, 2002)

Kestreljr said:


> You think he is playing possum? It has happened before! :idea:


I was just thinking the same thing. He's taking a page out of LA's book o' mind games. We'll find out tomorrow whether he's seriously injured or pulling a fast one on the entire peleton.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

flyboy50 said:


> If Hincapie hadn't let me down so many times before :mad2: I would be betting on him. Does anybody think George is over working and will run out of gas later? If he feels good and can keep riding fast, he could win.


He won't run out of gas. He's working a lot less than previous years when he used to pull Lance around through most of the flats.

He will however be at the wrong place at the right time I'm afraid.

fc


----------



## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

People are putting too much emphasis on the first Alp stage. A group will go up the road to win, the main contenders will ramp it up to shed some of the excess pack fodder. But there won't be huge gaps in the main GC guys. I say a group of at least 40 finish together. It's a Cat1 climb but the the last 15k are down hill. And Vino can go down hill pretty fast, if you recall the stage in the Vuelta where he took 1:30 out of Valverde on a descent/run in with the help of Tommy D. So even if he does get dropped, he has time to make it back on. Mind you, he lost time on the descent yesterday.
He'll survive tomorrow easily, but he will lose time on Sunday.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

mtbbmet said:


> He'll survive tomorrow easily, but he will lose time on Sunday.


All depends on how his injuries evolve.


----------



## kmac (Feb 13, 2007)

Has there been any more information after the stage about how Vino and Kloden survived today?


----------



## ElvisMerckx (Oct 11, 2002)

zeytin said:


> It looked like a response to a question as in "No, I'm finished"


To me, it looked like he just wanted the moto-cam to stop filming him. He was simply signalling to them to cut off the camera feed.


----------



## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

ElvisMerckx said:


> To me, it looked like he just wanted the moto-cam to stop filming him. He was simply signalling to them to cut off the camera feed.


I just watched it a few minutes ago, and I have to agree. I'm sure he's hurtin', however he finished in the pack so hopefully he can soldier on.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Ahh, the internet... 

where we can all theorize on the definition of a TDF rider's silly little on-camera gesture :biggrin5:

fc


----------



## ElvisMerckx (Oct 11, 2002)

francois said:


> Ahh, the internet...
> 
> where we can all theorize on the definition of a TDF rider's silly little on-camera gesture :biggrin5:
> 
> fc


Nice to know you're above it all. Enjoy the thread.


----------



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

ElvisMerckx said:


> Nice to know you're above it all. Enjoy the thread.


Hey I'm in it too as my theory is this thread too. 

It's just a commentary as we approach a plethora of 'meanings' for his gesture.

I gotta say your theory has the most creativity though.

fc


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

FondriestFan said:


> You're wrong, Barry. Vino will SMASH!!
> 
> Doubters can shove it.


It would be crazy for him to go for the win tomorrow, even if he does feel really great.
The best strategy for Vino is to limit his losses to main contenders for now and hope his body can recover. I don't know if you ever tried to recover from a crash, but the last thing you should do is go balls to the wall two days after injury - this will come back to haunt you.

On the other hand, I don't think Vino is the kind to give up easily. He will fight till it's absolutely impossible to keep going. He is like a leg-less, arm-less Monty Python knight "'is just a scratch!"


----------



## snowman3 (Jul 20, 2002)

francois said:


> Ahh, the internet...
> 
> where we can all theorize on the definition of a TDF rider's silly little on-camera gesture :biggrin5:
> 
> fc



Heck, I just got home and watched it. I'm still not sure what it meant after getting my own two eyes on it. We'll see what tomorrow brings....

And yeah, I also fear GeorgeH will be at the wrong place at the right time... although Noval has a knack for that. Hopefully he is the only one to pay off the karma gods.


----------



## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

could been the most important weekend for Vino's and Kloeden's career. gentleman, are you ready?? the Alps is next!! yes!! finally waiting all week for the first mountain stage..and it's next.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

I think it's more likely Vino will win one of the stages in the Pyrenees.


----------



## mtbykr (Feb 16, 2004)

*well*

Vino (and kloden) stayed with the main GC guys today and didn't look like he was hurting. He's only going to get better so we'll see what happens tommorow...if he can get through tommorow then the rest day will be very welcome for him.


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

ok, here's some facts: astana is a very strong team with 4 riders who could make it into the top 10 of the gc (klöden, vino, kashechkin & savoldelli). i do understand that vino is their captain as not only he but also the team is from kazachstan. i do understand that a captain in trouble needs support.

but what i do not understand is that klöden had to stay with vino. sorry, but for me, klöden was and still is the best astana-rider. he's strong in the mountains, he's an excellent time trialist. so why sacrifice a rider like klöden for a struggling vino who doesn't have a chance of winning the tdf (he never had, he's amazing in 2-3 days but there's always 1-2 "jours sans" for him; i don't see that this is different this year).

anyway, astana did a great job yesterday by eliminating klöden! CONGRATULATIONS! :mad2: 

i should mention one thing: i am neither a fan of astana nor klöden. i am just a tdf-enthusiast.


----------



## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

That's how team orders work. Kloden works for Vino, so that's what he was doing. Personally, if I was Vino and was hurt, and saw my teammate riding that strongly, I'd tell my teammate to go ahead. Vino has to know that his chances are slim at best with his injuries. Why not let a teammate get the glory if he can't do it himself? Personally I'm somewhat of a Vino fan, but he just looks too battered and bruised (and cut and stitched for that matter) to really be a factor in the tour...


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

IAmCosmo said:


> That's how team orders work.


i know that. and i do accept team orders *if *they make sense. team order is there to help the team. but in this case, respecting the team order just for the sake of respecting team order makes no sense at all. klöden was/is the best rider in this team for me, he's astana's best man and their best chance to win the tdf. by not letting him go yesterday, klöden may have lost the tdf. so, the whole team may have lost the tdf. great job! :mad2:

i know how cycling works and, as is said, i am neither a fan of astana, nor klöden, nor vino. i'm just saying...

during the tdf 1997, riis let ullrich go in the pyrenees - a hard decision for riis. but it was the right one. ullrich was off and he won the stage and thus the tdf. in that respect vino is not half the man as riis - at least, yesterday he wasn't.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Daddy yo yo said:


> in that respect vino is not half the man as riis - at least, yesterday he wasn't.


Unless of course it was a decision Kloden took on his own to stay with Vino.


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Unless of course it was a decision Kloden took on his own to stay with Vino.


of course. but i strongly doubt that klöden took and would take such a decision. did you see vino patting klöden on the back when they crossed the finish line? nice move from vino but klöden seemed to be really pi**ed off... so, i doubt that anyone else but vino took that decision. so much about _"we're not having one single team leader, we have several. they're all equal"_.


----------



## JohnnyChance (Dec 13, 2006)

kloden finished 30 seconds behind levi, and just under a minute behind menchov and sastre. its not like he lost _huge, tour ending_ time to these guys. hes a better time trialist than them.

also, he signed up for this ****. he knew vino was the leader when he joined the team. im sure when the team manager goes over the strategy, hes reminded of this fact.

and we dont really know what klodens or vino's injuries really are. we dont know how bad they are, or if they are hamming it up a bit. we dont know if kloden will last 2 more weeks, or if hes just trying to put in some week for vino for a couple days before he bows out.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Daddy yo yo said:


> but what i do not understand is that klöden had to stay with vino. sorry, but for me, klöden was and still is the best astana-rider. he's strong in the mountains, he's an excellent time trialist. so why sacrifice a rider like klöden for a struggling vino who doesn't have a chance of winning the tdf (he never had, he's amazing in 2-3 days but there's always 1-2 "jours sans" for him; i don't see that this is different this year).


I think Astana should have had Kashechkin drop back to nurse Vino and let Kloden ride for himself.


----------



## spyro (Aug 3, 2004)

Daddy yo yo said:


> of course. but i strongly doubt that klöden took and would take such a decision. did you see vino patting klöden on the back when they crossed the finish line? nice move from vino but klöden seemed to be really pi**ed off... so, i doubt that anyone else but vino took that decision. so much about _"we're not having one single team leader, we have several. they're all equal"_.


I just thought he looked TIRED like he had just pulled the group back from loseing huge time to the boys in that middle group.


----------



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

il sogno said:


> I think Astana should have had Kashechkin drop back to nurse Vino and let Kloden ride for himself.


I wondered that also... Considering that Astana is backed by Kazakhstan oil magnates, there may be a lot of pressure to have a Kazakh rider doing well. 

Or maybe Kloden didn't have acceleration to get up there to go with Moreau. Or maybe his injury was acting up.

If I were Astana DS, I would tell semi-injured Kloden/Vino to take it relatively easy and stick together in stage 8, not do anything crazy, hoping for a recovery day to heal things up and come back in Pyranees - even if it means losing a minute or two. This may be smarter than burning yourself out on the first mountain stage and having to drop out altogether due to the flared-up injury issues.

It is still a puzzle why Kloden was ordered to basically stop pedaling to wait for Vino, so close to the finish. Maybe Kloden/Vino know something we don't?


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

il sogno said:


> I think Astana should have had Kashechkin drop back to nurse Vino and let Kloden ride for himself.


i agree! as i've said a couple of times, klöden is astana's best man. of course vino is a great rider, a rider who seeks his chance to win. he's good for 2-3 glorious stage victories but not for winning the whole tdf. klöden can do that. anyway, let's hope that next time vino's in trouble (and that will happen for sure) klöden's free to go!

i know that last time rasmussen went for a couple of stage victories, he lost serious time in the time trials. but that was also due to some technical problems with his machine. there are still 2 real mountain stages to come where no one will be able to follow rasmussen if he seriously attacks. so let's see how big his lead will be before the time trials and then let's wait how much time he will lose there...

all the main competitors are now (at least) almost 3 minutes down, let's say rasmussen can win the 2 mountain stages to come by a lead of 2 minutes, so he'll be 7 minutes ahead of his main competitors... how much time will he lose in a 50km time trial? what do you think?


----------



## nostromo (Apr 1, 2006)

Daddy yo yo said:


> i agree! as i've said a couple of times, klöden is astana's best man. of course vino is a great rider, a rider who seeks his chance to win. he's good for 2-3 glorious stage victories but not for winning the whole tdf. klöden can do that. anyway, let's hope that next time vino's in trouble (and that will happen for sure) klöden's free to go!
> 
> i know that last time rasmussen went for a couple of stage victories, he lost serious time in the time trials. but that was also due to some technical problems with his machine. there are still 2 real mountain stages to come where no one will be able to follow rasmussen if he seriously attacks. so let's see how big his lead will be before the time trials and then let's wait how much time he will lose there...
> 
> all the main competitors are now (at least) almost 3 minutes down, let's say rasmussen can win the 2 mountain stages to come by a lead of 2 minutes, so he'll be 7 minutes ahead of his main competitors... how much time will he lose in a 50km time trial? what do you think?


Yes but Vino has now won the Vuelta which he never did before. Of course it will now take a miracle for him to win here though. Poor guy riding around with munched up knees.

Based on watching the chicken a few years back in the TT when he was in a strong position I would say the answer to your question above is that the amount of time he will lose is whatever is required to blow it.


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

nostromo said:


> Yes but Vino has now won the Vuelta which he never did before.


no offense, but the vuelta has always been the event for the losers of the tdf. the favorites for the tdf aren't there, so, if a former tdf-favorite shows up there, it should be rather easy to win the vuelta (compared to the tdf, of course; i'm not saying that the vuelta is easy)


nostromo said:


> Based on watching the chicken a few years back in the TT when he was in a strong position I would say the answer to your question above is that the amount of time he will lose is whatever is required to blow it.


i am not too sure about that. i do not believe that rasmussen's time trial abilities are as bad as they seemed in the legendary time trial where he looked like, well, me in a formula one car, i'd say!  seriously, he crashed, switched bike and then had technical problems with the spare bike which made him look like a beginner... but i don't think he's THAT bad. of course, he won't be in the top 20 or top 30 in the time trials. but i'm curious to see rasmussen in the mountain stages still to come, i am curious about the next _"stroke of genius" _of astana's team manager, and i am curious how big rasmussen's lead will be before the time trials, and i am curious how much time he will lose in the time trials... i am a curious fellow!


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Daddy yo yo said:


> no offense, but the vuelta has always been the event for the losers of the tdf. the favorites for the tdf aren't there, so, if a former tdf-favorite shows up there, it should be rather easy to win the vuelta (compared to the tdf, of course; i'm not saying that the vuelta is easy)


Armstrong could only finish 4th 

I think it's a bit of a different kettle of fish, as is the Giro. More emphasis on climbing, less time trialing, seems more "intense" racing for the GC over more days.

The Tour by contrast seems to be focused into a few key times although a lot of that could have been Armstrong's dominance. Obviously the long TTs, and then a few serious mountain days, probably only 3 (?) in this Tour.


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

klöden's free to go, he doesn't have to stay with vino!!! good decision!!! :thumbsup:


----------



## ru1-2cycle (Jan 7, 2006)

*Vino- tough road warrior.*



ElvisMerckx said:



> To me, it looked like he just wanted the moto-cam to stop filming him. He was simply signalling to them to cut off the camera feed.


Good point.Maybe that is what he meant.
I just have tons of respect for Vino, since he has displayed a remarkably extraordnary
courage and determination rarely seeing today. I bet you that even after his injuries and misfortune Vino can still wipe any one of us "aficionados", even on our best form or day.
Vino, I salute your courage and guts- thank you for the consistent quality road racing!:thumbsup:


----------



## pedal power (Jun 16, 2007)

It`s clear why Vino was the favourite this year, but with his present condition and time deficit it`s goodbye TDF `07 for Vino and I doubt Rasmussen can hold out.

My money is on Valverde and with the TTs, Leipheimer has a strong chance as well especially when you have GeorgeH pushing you along.


----------



## Daddy yo yo (Apr 2, 2005)

pedal power said:


> It`s clear why Vino was the favourite this year, but with his present condition and time deficit it`s goodbye TDF `07 for Vino


totally agree.


pedal power said:


> and I doubt Rasmussen can hold out.


until yesterday i thought that rasmussen was untouchable in the mountains. but he was struggling yesterday, so, rasmussen won't be on the podium in paris, that's for sure!


pedal power said:


> My money is on Valverde and with the TTs, Leipheimer has a strong chance as well especially when you have GeorgeH pushing you along.


big george can't help levi in the time trials (it's individual time trials, no team tt). and levi's not that strong, neither in the mountains nor in time trials. for me, the race is between valverde and klöden. klöden is incredibly strong this year. and he only lost a couple of seconds yesterday because he's not the acceleration type guy. he's good in going a constant pace, but he doesn't have excellent acceleration abilities like contador or valverde... the only thing against klöden is the gap of 1:15 over valverde... but i believe that can close the gap in the 2 time trials! it will be interesting to follow the upcoming mountain stages!!! can't wait to watch them!


----------



## DLine (Aug 20, 2004)

Kloden's got a history of skewering his teammates, so I was actually surprised to see him pull Vino the other other day. But I think that Kloden is probably the biggest threat in the tour (excellent TT, great climber), and the one everyone else should be marking now instead of Vino.

I'd still like to see Vino come back in the Pyrenees, but it's looking more and more unlikely. It'd make for a great story if he can overcome the injuries and a pretty significant time gap...but stranger things have happened.


----------

