# steel road framesets under $500?



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

Needs to be a steel road frameset (frame AND fork) designed for caliper brakes that retails NEW for $500 or less. Seems like there are a billion cheap steel fixie framesets now but still only a handful of cheap steel road framesets for those of us who like gears. The Salsa Casseroll is going to cantis so all I got is this:

Surly Pacer
Soma Smoothie and Smoothie ES

What else? Does Kona make the Honky Tonk available as a frameset or did Bikeman just score a batch?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

I've seen some NOS Bassos on Ebay recently for that kind of pricing.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

So nothing else?


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## OldSkoolFatGuy (Sep 6, 2007)

I've looked myself for a cheap steely. Best was on the fleabay. Got a NOS Basso for 200 and I picked up a NOS Rossin for 275. Both are from the mid '90s..

Let us know if you find any other sources!


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

Try a Specialized dealer to see if the Allez (steel) is available as a frameset. About a month ago, I was told over the phone that frameset is available - but needed to come in for a price quote. Not sure if LBS wanted to make a deal or if Specialized sells framesets.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

SantaCruz said:


> Try a Specialized dealer to see if the Allez (steel) is available as a frameset. About a month ago, I was told over the phone that frameset is available - but needed to come in for a price quote. Not sure if LBS wanted to make a deal or if Specialized sells framesets.


I was wondering about that and checked their site but didn't see anything. Next time I'm at the LBS I'll ask.


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## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

OldSkoolFatGuy said:


> I've looked myself for a cheap steely. Best was on the fleabay. Got a NOS Basso for 200 and I picked up a NOS Rossin for 275. Both are from the mid '90s..
> 
> Let us know if you find any other sources!


Yeah, it's a good idea to watch eBay, I just sort of lack the patience...


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## otiebob (Jun 25, 2002)

Steel Frame ($279) : http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd-722rs-2010-road-frame.cfm
Steel Fork ($119): http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd-leader-s803-steel-fork.cfm


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Very few inexpensive framesets nowadays. You've got the best answers here. Believe me, I've looked too.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

otiebob said:


> Steel Frame ($279) : http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd-722rs-2010-road-frame.cfm
> Steel Fork ($119): http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd-leader-s803-steel-fork.cfm


No mention of steel. I'll assume 4130. Still they look like a nice frame. Leader makes very nice AL frames.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

I bought a Ti frameset from an RBR member for just under $500 - used, but check the forum ads.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Since you already know about the Surly and Soma, sry, but all I've got are near misses... Velo Orange has a $400 frameset, but it has canti bosses.

Masi has a nice frameset for caliper brakes (Speciale Premio) but that one's $600, not 500 (though I believe that, unlike the SOMAs, that includes a fork, thus bringing the prices pretty close). 

Kona Kapu frameset still available in some sizes on Amazon, but for $750-ish. 

Still, there's a ton of good '80s steel on Craigslist. A good Reynolds 531 Trek _bike_, not frame, can be had for sub-$400, if you look around. I know, 'cuz I've done it, and lately too. 

I'm certain you can do the same for Tange #1 bikes of that era as well, perhaps even Tange Prestige.
.


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## acckids (Jan 2, 2003)

You can get a custom frame for around $600 from Franklin Frames in Newark. Most of us (or friends) have a cheap carbon fork around the house. So $650 tops. Jack will even paint your cheapo fork the same as your frame for free. 

Try http://sellwoodcycle.com/consignment.htm#drop also. Sellwood has some Kona and sometimes some really good used frames.


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## kmc (Oct 16, 2002)

*gvh bikes*

GVH bikes has khs steel frames with carbon forks for $500 as well as Viner steel frames with carbon forks for $500.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

acckids said:


> You can get a custom frame for around $600 from Franklin Frames in Newark. Most of us (or friends) have a cheap carbon fork around the house. So $650 tops. Jack will even paint your cheapo fork the same as your frame for free.
> 
> Try http://sellwoodcycle.com/consignment.htm#drop also. Sellwood has some Kona and sometimes some really good used frames.



Just curious. I checked the w site and all the frames are at least double that.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

SystemShock said:


> Still, there's a ton of good '80s steel on Craigslist. A good Reynolds 531 Trek _bike_, not frame, can be had for sub-$400, if you look around. I know, 'cuz I've done it, and lately too.


Yes it can be done but you have to be REALLY REALLY LUCKY, with the emphasis on lucky. Vintage Treks are starting to reach cult status. Cult is code for over priced. Most riders don't want to wait months when they can spend an extra $100 and get something new right now.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

acckids said:


> You can get a custom frame for around $600 from Franklin Frames in Newark.


That's Newark OH not NJ. Jack painted one of my bikes about 4 years ago. He's a nice guy and his work is very good. I just checked out his site and can't say I see a $600 frame.

http://home.windstream.net/franklinframe/


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*ebay*



Henry Chinaski said:


> Needs to be a steel road frameset (frame AND fork) designed for caliper brakes that retails NEW for $500 or less. Seems like there are a billion cheap steel fixie framesets now but still only a handful of cheap steel road framesets for those of us who like gears. The Salsa Casseroll is going to cantis so all I got is this:
> 
> Surly Pacer
> Soma Smoothie and Smoothie ES
> ...


I know you said you don't want to use ebay but there are bargains to be found there. Over the past coupe of years I picked up a new Torelli and a Coppi Genius for less than $400. On ebay you can set up a saved search based on frame material, size and price. Then you get an email with the hits. This will save time. With some patience you be able to find something that fits the bill


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

My former Serotta Classique (853, fillet-brazed) I picked up off Ebay for under $400. That was an awesome bike. 

I hear really good things about that Leader steel frame. I dig the green with chrome fork.


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## blantonator (Apr 25, 2007)

i bought a Serotta Atlanta for $600, complete bike.


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## acckids (Jan 2, 2003)

DaveG said:


> I know you said you don't want to use ebay but there are bargains to be found there. Over the past coupe of years I picked up a new Torelli and a Coppi Genius for less than $400. On ebay you can set up a saved search based on frame material, size and price. Then you get an email with the hits. This will save time. With some patience you be able to find something that fits the bill



I never knew this. I went to Ebay and did this "saved search." Thanks for the heads up.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

blantonator said:


> i bought a Serotta Atlanta for $600, complete bike.


Serotta NHX frame and fork with DA 7400 headset, BB and crank for $167.00 here.

Steel serottas are way underrated.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

cs1 said:


> Yes it can be done but you have to be REALLY REALLY LUCKY, with the emphasis on lucky. Vintage Treks are starting to reach cult status. Cult is code for over priced. Most riders don't want to wait months when they can spend an extra $100 and get something new right now.


O RLY? A search today in my neck o' the woods turned up 3 such Treks, only 1 of which was overpriced.

Yes, I'm lucky... I live in the SF Bay Area, where there's a lot of such bikes. But geez, I doubt we have much, if anything, over Portland, NYC, or lots of other large metro areas.

Also saw some very nice jewels-in-the-rough on said search... a couple of Dawes and a Bob Jackson, for quite cheap:

.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Henry Chinaski said:


> Needs to be a steel road frameset (frame AND fork) designed for caliper brakes that retails NEW for $500 or less. Seems like there are a billion cheap steel fixie framesets now but still only a handful of cheap steel road framesets for those of us who like gears. The Salsa Casseroll is going to cantis so all I got is this:
> 
> Surly Pacer
> Soma Smoothie and Smoothie ES
> ...


Just went down this road a month ago. Kona has no Honky Tonks as frames left, only the INC, which is a disc brake frame. JensonUSA has the Surly Pacer in green, assorted sizes for $450 (as do other on-line vendors). You can find assorted on-line dealers for the Soma Smoothie ES as well as the regular Smoothie, all under $500 with fork, but pay attention to the forks available as some vendors have the frame in the size and color you want, but no forks, so you might end up as frame from vendor 1 and fork from vendor 2, etc... which drives up the cost a bit. Velo Orange, Rivendell, Gunnars and Bob Jacksons are all above $500. 

As an attempt to narrow down what you are looking for, the Soma Smoothie ES as example has slightly longer chainstays then the Smoothie, with primary difference being greater tire clearance that requires 57mm reach brakes. Then you need to pay attention to the fork as the carbon forks that use that brake have limitations as to tire sizes. The steel forks don't but are not color matched to the frame. The Smoothie, on the other hand, uses regular reach road brakes, and can take up to a 29mm tire, but if you use a carbon fork, maybe a 28. Both the Smoothie and ES have eyelets for a R rack and fenders, while the Surly Pacer does not have rack eyelets, as comparison. The Smoothie, BTW can be ordered direct from Soma as a matched white frame and fork for about $575 shipped, which is what I did 300 miles and one month ago.

So my original response was to recommend a Smoothie. It's a great riding bike, handling is dead on, doesn't feel like a "heavy" steel bike, even though it's 2 lbs heavier then my carbon. I LOVE this bike, in truth, does it all for me, so highly recommended.

Here's some pic's on Flickr: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5002049302/

SB


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice looking bike Steve, congrats!! :thumbsup:


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## bigman (Nov 30, 2004)

Hurry Rawland cycles - 500 shipped - prices go up on the 16th. Great rigs - I am sure the new rigs will be improved models.


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## Slow Ride (Jul 10, 2008)

Steve B,

I'm curious what brand/model tire are you running?

Thanks.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Slow Ride said:


> Steve B,
> 
> I'm curious what brand/model tire are you running?
> 
> Thanks.


I normally use Panaracer Ruffy Tuffies, which I got from Rivendell a few years back. It measures 27.5mm on a Mavic MA4 rim @ 100psi. Bikes Direct has these tires as well. The other tire I use is an Avocet Cross K's, inverted tread that are 28.5mm (85psi) on a typical road rim (I think it's a Open Pro). Both clear the front and back on the Soma. I also just did a long hilly road ride in eastern PA with my "racing" wheels/tires that were 23m Bike rode great. 

FWIW, I really like the Ruffy Tuffies. They have lasted a long time, have a very round profile that corners great and have been very flat resistant on my commutes thru Brooklyn, NY

SB


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Henry Chinaski said:


> I was wondering about that and checked their site but didn't see anything. Next time I'm at the LBS I'll ask.


 Heck just buy the Specialized for another $100 and sell the parts that you don't want. That should bring you down to under $400 with some parts left on the frame. I think the frame is Reynolds 520- which is higher end than 4130.


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## acckids (Jan 2, 2003)

cs1 said:


> That's Newark OH not NJ. Jack painted one of my bikes about 4 years ago. He's a nice guy and his work is very good. I just checked out his site and can't say I see a $600 frame.
> 
> http://home.windstream.net/franklinframe/


You will need to call him to get price on his Dedaccia Zero Tre tig welded. I went back and checked my notes and it was $725 with a cheap no name fork. I was off $75 or $225 over the $500 limit. Still pretty good for made in the USA, custom and from a quality artisan.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

salsa has the pistol is 0x, but it is a carbon fork with 0x steerer


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

terbennett said:


> Heck just buy the Specialized for another $100 and sell the parts that you don't want. That should bring you down to under $400 with some parts left on the frame. *I think the frame is Reynolds 520- which is higher end than 4130*.


I don't know the grade of tubing spec'd on the Allez, but FYI Reynolds 520 is just their proprietary name for 4130. Same grade. 

Good thought on getting the Allez steel and selling of the unwanted parts.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

bigman said:


> Hurry Rawland cycles - 500 shipped - prices go up on the 16th. Great rigs - I am sure the new rigs will be improved models.


Seems like nice bikes. 

Odd though that they offer a cross bike, a fixed/single and a disc brake model in 700 and then a steel and titanium, but only in 650B wheels. 

Nothing in 700 that uses standard road brakes (as per the OP). Seems a big hole in their line-up so curious what their thinking is.

SB


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

acckids said:


> You will need to call him to get price on his Dedaccia Zero Tre tig welded. I went back and checked my notes and it was $725 with a cheap no name fork. I was off $75 or $225 over the $500 limit. Still pretty good for made in the USA, custom and from a quality artisan.


He does make nice frames. Plus he does all his own paint. I haven't heard anyone mention Joe Bringhelli in Parma OH. He get's about $700 for an unpainted frame & fork. Everything is Dedaccai tubing. Actually, he's the US importer. Everybody that uses that tubing buys if from Joe.


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## OldSkoolFatGuy (Sep 6, 2007)

cs1 said:


> He does make nice frames. Plus he does all his own paint. I haven't heard anyone mention Joe Bringhelli in Parma OH. He get's about $700 for an unpainted frame & fork. Everything is Dedaccai tubing. Actually, he's the US importer. Everybody that uses that tubing buys if from Joe.


Joe does nice work! I own 2 bringheli's.. I'm not sure Joe is still building, but he may decide to do one if you ask nicely. Be prepared to wait as he can get backed up with other things.. He'll also do a order a deda carbon frame for you too. He'll even sell you the kit to build it yourself. Joe is a top notch guy, and fun to talk to!


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## LigonierA1 (Aug 12, 2005)

I scored a Salsa Casseroll frame/fork/headset on ebay for $300. It built into a fantastic riding bike, very pleased. The Soma on the first page is very nice in appearance. It's amazing how little money you need to spend to get some amazingly good stuff when you really focus....


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> I don't know the grade of tubing spec'd on the Allez, but FYI Reynolds 520 is just their proprietary name for 4130. Same grade.
> 
> Good thought on getting the Allez steel and selling of the unwanted parts.


That kind of misses the point. The majority of tubesets are chromoly steel alloy, like 4130. But a Reynolds 520 tubeset is a mandrel butted tubeset that is considerably lighter and livelier than a straight gauge 4130 tubed frame. Reynolds numbers refer to both alloy, origin, heat treatment and shape. 520, 525 and 725 are all the same alloy.

The choice of steel alloy is almost irrelevant compared to the way the steel is formed.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

Anyone ridden or seen the voodoo rada? Looks like a decent option.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> That kind of misses the point. The majority of tubesets are chromoly steel alloy, like 4130. But a Reynolds 520 tubeset is a mandrel butted tubeset that is considerably lighter and livelier than a straight gauge 4130 tubed frame. Reynolds numbers refer to both alloy, origin, heat treatment and shape. 520, 525 and 725 are all the same alloy.
> 
> The choice of steel alloy is almost irrelevant compared to the way the steel is formed.


Given the remark I was responding to and within the context of this thread, it doesn't miss the point at all. I wasn't referring to "the way steel is formed". I was responding to terbennetts remark that Reynolds 520 is higher end than 4130. Being the same grade steel, it's not.

The choice of steel alloy is IMO/E not at all irrelevant.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> Given the remark I was responding to and within the context of this thread, it doesn't miss the point at all. I wasn't referring to "the way steel is formed". I was responding to terbennetts remark that Reynolds 520 is higher end than 4130. Being the same grade steel, it's not.
> 
> The choice of steel alloy is IMO/E not at all irrelevant.


It is higher end. It isn't a higher end_ alloy_, but it is a higher end tubeset. 


> think the frame is Reynolds 520- which is higher end than 4130


Terbennetts wasn't making a metalurgical only comparison, and I completely agree with him. "4130", in the context of this thread, refers to aerospace strait guage tubing pressed into service for frame building. There is no butted tubeset referred to as '4130'.

Virtually all steel tubing with either a very 4130ish chromoloy or its a relatively similar chrome manganese. Which one hardly matters, since both have so successfully been turned into great tubesets. 

520 IS better than straight guage 4130. 725 IS even better than 520.


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

I second used. I got a late 80s Shogun samurai frame and fork made with Tange Infinity for like 70 bucks. It could use a repaint, but it's a very comfy frame. I like new stuff too but if you don't have any strange requirements, there are just so many nice steel frames of that era floating around.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> It isn't a higher end alloy.


Thanks. That was_ exactly _my point.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> Thanks. That was_ exactly _my point.


But your point has nothing to do with what he was saying, so pointing that out is just a red herring. You could also point out that all steel bikes are made of steel. So what?

520 is better than 4130. That is a statement about tubesets, nothing else. And it is a correct statement, your statement has nothing to do with that point, and only serves to create confusion about the relative performance and value of the frames being compared.


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## draganM (Nov 27, 2001)

this company has lots of steel frame choices, real classic stuff too like lugged Columbus. I rode a Debernardi for 10 years and it was a very smooth frame, maybe not the best climber but comfy. Mine was the first one pictured, Thron OS. Their cable routing through the top tube is beautiful too. Makes me sad looking at the pics but pushing all that steel up 14% grades here in CO was really hard 

https://www.smartcycles.com/frame_closeouts_list.htm


> Columbus Thron O/S steel tubeset with steel chromed fork - tigged $535.





















> Columbus Thron steel tubeset - lugged with steel fork- tigged, chrome - $420.













> Columbus SL double butted steel tubeset w/chromed rear triangle and tigged fork $642.














> Columbus Zona steel tubeset - tig welded, with carbon fork (chro-moly steer) $707.


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## raymond7204 (Sep 22, 2008)

draganM said:


> this company has lots of steel frame choices, real classic stuff too like lugged Columbus. I rode a Debernardi for 10 years and it was a very smooth frame, maybe not the best climber but comfy. Mine was the first one pictured, Thron OS. Their cable routing through the top tube is beautiful too. Makes me sad looking at the pics but pushing all that steel up 14% grades here in CO was really hard
> 
> ]


Beautiful frames. I'll have to check them out.

Ray


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

The fact that Reynolds 520 is _literally_ 4130 _is_ the point when someone says 520 is higher grade. It's not. 4130 is manipulated into a tubeset that Reynolds refers to as 520, which is their proprietary name. Other manufacturers do similarly, so there is no 'better' here, unless one concludes that Reynolds process is somehow superior. But that would be purely subjective.

This is the extent of which I'm willing to stray off topic, but feel free to continue...


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> The fact that Reynolds 520 is _literally_ 4130 _is_ the point when someone says 520 is higher grade. It's not. 4130 is manipulated into a tubeset that Reynolds refers to as 520, which is their proprietary name. Other manufacturers do similarly, so there is no 'better' here, unless one concludes that Reynolds *process* is somehow superior. But that would be purely subjective.
> 
> This is the extent of which I'm willing to stray off topic, but feel free to continue...


520 is the end result of a* process *that turns 4130 steel into a butted, lightweight tubeset. It is not a proprietary steel, it is a *proprietary tube forming process*.

Just as when someone refers to "alloy" rims, we bicycle people know they mean "aluminum alloy", Terbennett's reference to "4130 frame" was bicycle world short hand for "straight gauge 4130" frame.

520, 525 and 725 are all the same alloy. 631 and 853 are the same alloy. SL, SP, SLX and TSX are all the same alloy. None of them are "the same", and all of them could be ranked as good, better and best.

It is your insistance that the underlying metal makes two tubesets the "same". They aren't in any way that applies to this thread or any meaningful discussion of frame construction. 520, despite its alloy, is most like a chrome manganese 531 tubeset than any tubeset advertised as simply "4130".


Your so-called "point" is just a pointless and trivial distraction when someone is trying to compare a 4130 (straight gauge) frame with a much nicer 520 (butted) frame. I suppose it would be important if you don't want to ride either bicycle, but were just going to recycle the steel.

I would suggest that two red bikes are just as much "the same" by your way of thinking as two bikes composed of aluminum, like a Vitus and a Cannondale. They must be comparable - same alloy and all.


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## EastCoast (Apr 15, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> Your so-called "point" is just a pointless and trivial distraction when someone is trying to compare a 4130 (straight gauge) frame with a much nicer 520 (butted) frame. I suppose it would be important if you don't want to ride either bicycle, but were just going to recycle the steel.


+1
Thanks for clearing this up. 



rx-79g said:


> The fact that Reynolds 520 is _literally_ 4130 _is_ the point *when someone says 520 is higher grade*.


Nobody said 520 was from higher grade steel than 4130 (go back and check the thread), they said it was a higher end tubeset. rx-79g already explained this.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Both of you need to concentrate on reading comprehension. Misquoting and taking what I say out of context won't make your arguments more credible. 

Go back, reread and try again.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> Both of you need to concentrate on reading comprehension. Misquoting and taking what I say out of context won't make your arguments more credible.
> 
> Go back, reread and try again.


I did already. Here we go:


> I think the frame is Reynolds 520- which is higher end than 4130.


 Note that he doesn't say "higher end_ alloy_" or "than_ any tubing made of_ 4130." He compares 520 (a tubeset) to 4130, which is an alloy name that in the bicycle world is short for "4130 straight gauge aviation tubing, not specifically designed for bicycle use".

Here's you correcting him:


> I don't know the grade of tubing spec'd on the Allez, but FYI Reynolds 520 is just their proprietary name for 4130. Same grade.


Sometimes different steels do have proprietary names. 50100-B, 1095V and 0170-6 are three names for the same alloy formulation used by different companies. But Reynolds 520 isn't a name that refers to an alloy - it is a name for a tube forming process that includes alloy, heat treatment, shape and application.

4130 is the name of an alloy. But, as pointed out to you ad nauseum, it's use in bicycle circles doesn't refer to a block of cast metal, but extruded seemless straight gauge tubing. Your statement, while inspired by a bit of truthful trivia, is misleading and false.


So here's what I want to know, PJ352: Did you mean to make people think that they are getting the equivalent bicycle frame whether it is labeled as being made from "Reynolds 520 tubing" or "4130 tubing"? Do you think there are bicycles advertised as made from "4130" (without further modifiers) that are as nice as those made of "Reynolds 520"?

I'm not even sure what you are defending: That these two tubing types are completely equivalent, or your right to insert confusing, off topic trivia as misleading corrections?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Henry Chinaski said:


> *Needs to be a steel road frameset (frame AND fork) designed for caliper brakes that retails NEW for $500 or less*. Seems like there are a billion cheap steel fixie framesets now but still only a handful of cheap steel road framesets for those of us who like gears. The Salsa Casseroll is going to cantis so all I got is this:
> 
> Surly Pacer
> Soma Smoothie and Smoothie ES
> ...


And there will be
even in lugged


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

rx-79g said:


> I did already. Here we go: Note that he doesn't say "higher end_ alloy_" or "than_ any tubing made of_ 4130." He compares 520 (a tubeset) to 4130, which is an alloy name that in the bicycle world is short for "4130 straight gauge aviation tubing, not specifically designed for bicycle use".
> 
> Here's you correcting him:
> 
> ...


Save for where you confuse your opinions with fact (and that has happened more than once here and elsewhere) you haven't offered me anything I wasn't fully aware of. 

If you notice, I never said anything about _tubesets_. As a response to terbennett (who also didn't mention tubesets) I stated that Reynolds 520 is the same grade as 4130. It's not only the same grade, it IS 4130. Reynolds can manipulate it till the end of time (and you can detail the process ad nauseum (which you have and I already knew), but it will STILL be 4130. If anyone misled, IMO it was terbennett, thus my response to him (and apologies to him for indirect references). 

As far as my posts serving to confuse or mislead, I think the only one I've managed that with is you, but not because I intended to, you just decided to read into my remarks and went off topic to prove a point that wasn't necessary (IMO). 

Funny that you think I'm defending anything. I'm not. All I said since the beginning is that Reynolds 520 is 4130, and_it_is. You put the burden on yourself ever since to prove that Reynolds 520 tubesets (it was only you using the term) are 'better' than 4130 (subjective).

So, as I've said before (then reneged on by posting again) this is the extent I'm willing to stray off topic, but feel free to continue.


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## EastCoast (Apr 15, 2007)

PJ352 said:


> If you notice, I never said anything about _tubesets_.


As soon as you talk about Reynolds 520 you are talking about tubesets since that's what the term denotes (and since this is a cycling forum, it's a reasonable interpretation).



PJ352 said:


> As a response to terbennett (who also didn't mention tubesets) I stated that Reynolds 520 is the same grade as 4130.


The point is that saying it's the same grade and therefore _just_ a proprietary name for 4130 is misleading and incorrect. 'Reynolds 520' denotes both the grade and form of the material, '4130' does not necessarily.



PJ352 said:


> Reynolds can manipulate it till the end of time (and you can detail the process ad nauseum (which you have and I already knew), but it will STILL be 4130.


But those manipulations are what warrant the name 'Reynolds 520' and thus would matter to someone asking about a 4130 vs. a 520 frame  You might as well tell somebody that there's no distinction between a tree and a canoe (it's STILL wood), or a liter of gasoline and a liter of dinosaur (it's STILL hydrocarbons).


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Let's review:
4130=straight gauge
Reynolds 520 is 4130 only in the way that a square is a rectangle. It is, but it's a particular special type of rectangle, and 520 is a special particular type of frameset which though made of the same basic alloy, has double-butted tubes.

Most people "subjectively" find a double-butted frames set to be a better, higher-end product, than frames that just say they are made of 4130 as it should be lighter and ride better as well.


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## M-theory (Jul 16, 2009)

Since you guys seem to be very knowlegeable, is Reynolds 853 better than Reynolds 520? And if so, what's the difference. 

I ask because the Jamis Eclipse is Reynolds 853...and the frame alone sells for $1300. Seems pricey.


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## M-theory (Jul 16, 2009)

OK nevermind. A quick search on wikipedia indicates that 853 is much stronger...and hence can be made lighter than 520.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Still confused.*



pacificaslim said:


> Let's review: 4130=straight gauge


4130 denotes a steel grade in The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) steel classification system. The digits indicate the steel's chemical composition. They have nothing to do with tubing, gauge, shape and form. Nitpicking, but I think it's in order here to get some clarity.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Of course. But in the bicycle industry, if a company says their frame is "4130", without making any other claims, they are saying it is a straight gauge frameset. They are saying it's made of good material, but because it's not butted it's likely heavier by comparison to something like a Reynolds 520 frame, which is double-butted 4130.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

wim said:


> 4130 denotes a steel grade in The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) steel classification system. The digits indicate the steel's chemical composition. They have nothing to do with tubing, gauge, shape and form. Nitpicking, but I think it's in order here to get some clarity.


This has been already stated elsewhere in this thread. I'll offer you this, for clarity:

In the bicycle world (and several other enthusiast/sports spheres), many shorthand phrases are used that, while borrowed from engineering manuals, no longer have that meaning because all the participants understand that they are using shorthand. Examples:

Alloy = aluminum alloy (despite nearly every metal on bikes being an alloy)
Titanium = 3/2.5 or 6/4 titanium alloy, rather than Comercially Pure.
Carbon = carbon fiber/epoxy laminate construction
Stainless = Steel with enough chromium to not corrode easily, but not truly impossible to stain.
Brazed = a join that uses a metal with a lower melting point than the joined metal, regardless of whether brass is used.
Bar = a hollow handle for steering, despite "bar" meaning solid rod
Braze on = The actual mounts OR parts for those mounts that attach with bolts to the frame. Phrase used regardless of actual "brazing" used for any of it.
4130 = Short for straight gauge chromoly tubing, usually sourced from a non-bicycle manufacturer.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> Of course. But in the bicycle industry, if a company says their frame is "4130", without making any other claims, they are saying it is a straight gauge frameset. They are saying it's made of good material, but because it's not butted it's likely heavier by comparison to something like a Reynolds 520 frame, which is double-butted 4130.


Makes sense. It's just that the 4130=straight gauge equation isn't an absolute. I ride a frame that had a 4130 sticker on it, but the main triangle is double-butted. Not that it does me any good, still slow....
rx-79g: good examples, thks.

/w


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