# Advice / Guidance on Buying LiteSpeed 2nd Hand (Used) Bike, PLEASE!



## jsmilgin (Apr 16, 2013)

*Hello everyone. I could really use some professional guidance here. I have a shot at a Litespeed Vortex Road Bike (57cm)2002 Litespeed Vortex titanium road bike (Lotto Adecco Team edition 57cm) with full Shimano Dura-Ace group and Shimano wheel set. Bike has maybe 5,000 total miles and wheels about 500 miles. Purchased new from Colorado Cyclist for $4,200. 172.5 cranks and 53/39 rings and 11-25 cog set. 120mm Deda stem with 42cm Deda bars. Includes Shimano Flight Deck computer, Look pedals, and new fi-zik saddle. Looks like it is in pristine condition for a bike of that age. Price is negotiable. Could someone out there let me know if this looks like a good buy / what a good price would be? Many thanks 4 any feedback!
*
John


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## Setteman (Apr 16, 2013)

I hope you are not going to pay $4,200 for an 11 year old bike. I am not an expert but what is the price being asked for the bike?


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## jsmilgin (Apr 16, 2013)

*Used LiteSpeed Price Guidance*



Setteman said:


> I hope you are not going to pay $4,200 for an 11 year old bike. I am not an expert but what is the price being asked for the bike?



No way. He's asking $2,200 (negotiable). Have heard / read some things about speed wobble, cracked tubes and lousy customer service at LiteSpeed. This bike does come with some nice extras though. What would be a fair price for this set up?


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

jsmilgin said:


> *Hello everyone. I could really use some professional guidance here. I have a shot at a Litespeed Vortex Road Bike (57cm)2002 Litespeed Vortex titanium road bike (Lotto Adecco Team edition 57cm) with full Shimano Dura-Ace group and Shimano wheel set. Bike has maybe 5,000 total miles and wheels about 500 miles. Purchased new from Colorado Cyclist for $4,200. 172.5 cranks and 53/39 rings and 11-25 cog set. 120mm Deda stem with 42cm Deda bars. Includes Shimano Flight Deck computer, Look pedals, and new fi-zik saddle. Looks like it is in pristine condition for a bike of that age. Price is negotiable. Could someone out there let me know if this looks like a good buy / what a good price would be? Many thanks 4 any feedback!
> *
> John


Take the original price of the bike = $4200

Divide by its life expectancy = 100 yrs.

Therefore: 4200/100 = $42 (annual depreciation amount)


Now multiply by the number of years since that specific bike was manufactured. Since the bike was manufactured in 2002, you subtract 2002 from 2013 (our current year). 2013 -2002 = 11 yrs.

Therefore, 11 X $42 = $462 

Now finally, subtract 462 from 4200 = $4200 - $462 = $3738 That's the fair market price.

I'd offer $2000 and try to gauge a response. Then try negotiating from there. Just don't exceed $3740!

******************************************

* I do believe that there might have been some structural issues with respect to the Litespeed Vortex. Due to this problem, I'd only offer about $1500, after considering expected repair costs.

Reference links concerning recurring problem with the Vortex:

www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-362243-p-2.html

Lifetime Frame Warranty: your opinion. « Competitor Forums

Just Google, "Litespeed Vortex Frame Failures" to get the gist of the overall Vortex problem and the various Litespeed responses.

_*You just might be better off moving away from this deal altogether. *_


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## jsmilgin (Apr 16, 2013)

Thank you!!!


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

jsmilgin said:


> No way. He's asking $2,200 (negotiable). Have heard / read some things about speed wobble, cracked tubes and lousy customer service at LiteSpeed. This bike does come with some nice extras though. What would be a fair price for this set up?


I'm thinking $1500 or maybe less. Do some searches on eBay or just general Google and you will find sale prices. I have known a few people with these frames and never a mention of speed wobble but that can be causes by a number of factors beyond the frame. A buddy did crack a frame but then the deer he hit at 35 mph might have been part of the problem.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Zeet went through some considerable math to come up with a nutty price. $3738? Perhaps it was humor?

Do a search of sold Vortex bikes on E-Bay. That's the best market gauge available.

Based on a search I just completed, I think you can expect a range of $1600-$2000 depending on condition. I think the seller's $2200 asking price is a reasonable starting point, and if you're a good negotiator, I think $1700 would be possible.

FWIW, Litespeed bikes made through 1999 were built by the Lynskey family before they sold the company to a conglomerate.

I own a 1999 Litepseed Tuscany, which I just built up with Dura Ace 9000. Love that frame.


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## RoadrunnerLXXI (Jun 3, 2012)

Use this bike price calculator to give you a ball park figure.

Used Bicycle Value Calculator


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## rgordin (Oct 22, 2010)

I have a 2000 Vortex and after putting on a new set of wheels and Sram components, it rides wonderfully. No structural problems at all. My guess is that $1500-1800 should take it, though I am not adding much for the Flight Deck. You might feel differently about that accessory.

2000 was right after the Lynskeys sold the company. Not sure if some of the original builders stuck around for awhile, so mine might have been built by the Lynskeys or their builders.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

I think litespeed was not sold to the present owners until the mid 2000's. As for customer service I would not pay much attention. This is a used bike. There is no warranty and no reason to have anything to do with the present owners

the vortex is 6/4 ti. I don't believe anyone uses it any more. It is simply too hard to work with. 

My vortex was purchased in 2004. It is a very quick bike and is subject to shimmy. It is the twitchiest bike I have ever owned. there is quite a bit of flex in the front end. It is a fun bike to ride, but I would not much like to take it down any mountains.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

tvad said:


> _Zeet went through some considerable math to come up with a nutty price. $3738? Perhaps it was humor?
> _


No. I used the Livestrong formula for calculating used bicycle prices. It was not for the purpose of humoring anyone deliberately. However, if you managed to squeeze a giggle or two from those elementary school calculations, then just knock yourself out and have some fun! 

www.livestrong.com/article/117012-calculate-cost-used-bicycle

Sure, the calculated price seemed high initially to me, as well. However, I have no real idea as to how much Ti holds its value. I'm most certain that Ti has a much lower depreciation rate, than do all of the other frame materials.

It really doesn't matter though, because at the end of the day, it's really all about how much the buyer is willing to pay for the bicycle being sold. 


The livestrong formula tends to work best with aluminum and steel. Aluminum would have a service life of 5 years, while steel would have a service life of 7 years. Perhaps there should be a better standard for the expected service life for bicycle frames.

Perhaps we should use the service life of Motobecane's bicycle frames:

Motobecane USA | Warranty

Of course, if we were to do that, CF frames would be practically free after only one year. Now THAT would be "Nutty" for certain! 

Ti = 100 yrs.

Steel = 20 yrs.

Al = 10 yrs.

C = 1 yr.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

Zeet said:


> Divide by its life expectancy = 100 yrs.



It won't last 100 years. Maybe the frame and a few other parts will, but a lot of it will wear out long before that.
Even if it did last 100 years, you won't, so you won't get 100 years use out of it.
The quality of a part reduces as it wears, so a part with 1/n of its life left is worth less than 1/n of its original price.


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Zeet said:


> No. I used the Livestrong formula for calculating used bicycle prices. It was not for the purpose of humoring anyone deliberately. However, if you managed to squeeze a giggle or two from those elementary school calculations, then just knock yourself out and have some fun!
> 
> www.livestrong.com/article/117012-calculate-cost-used-bicycle
> 
> ...


How are you getting an aluminum service life of 5 years and steel service life of 7? It's not mentioned on the Livestrong website. There are plenty of guys riding 1970's steel in the retro sub forums.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Tachycardic said:


> How are you getting an aluminum service life of 5 years and steel service life of 7? It's not mentioned on the Livestrong website. There are plenty of guys riding 1970's steel in the retro sub forums.


I actually agree with the fact that steel should be given a service life of much longer than just 5 to 7 years. However, I tried to adhere to Livestrong's formula on their website, as close as possible, as it does state in step 2, that a "reasonable" service life should be between 5 and 7 years for a bicycle frame. Therefore, knowing that steel should outlast aluminum, I arbitrarily selected steel as having a service life of 7 years and that of aluminum, as having one of 5 years. 

I personally own a road bike that over twenty five years old. Therefore, you're preaching to the choir. I'm just a student attempting to follow the teacher's unexplained rules! Livestrong really should have been more explicit concerning the lifespan of certain bicycle frame materials.


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

Just for frame of reference, I picked up a Litespeed Tuscany for my wife with Campy Record 9spd for $850. All it needed was a bit of a tune up and some new cables and bar wrap (mostly just for looks).

I would definitely not go anywhere near $3700 or whatever that crazy number is. 2k would be pushing the upper limits IMO.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Mr Evil said:


> It won't last 100 years. Maybe the frame and a few other parts will, but a lot of it will wear out long before that.
> Even if it did last 100 years, you won't, so you won't get 100 years use out of it.
> The quality of a part reduces as it wears, so a part with 1/n of its life left is worth less than 1/n of its original price.


Actually, the owner of a Ti bicycle will most likely pass his bicycle on to his heirs, and those heirs, will pass it on to their heirs, because 100 years is a very conservative estimate for the lifespan of Ti. That's only because it practically has no natural environmental nemesis. Since it doesn't oxidize within a PH neutral environment and is resistant to acids, Ti can practically last indefinitely.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

the OP would do well to simply ignore the bogus 'calculations' offered...they're total crap.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Zeet said:


> Take the original price of the bike = $4200
> 
> Divide by its life expectancy = 100 yrs.
> 
> ...


Would you like to buy some used bikes from me?


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

pmf said:


> Would you like to buy some used bikes from me?


Nope. I personally don't buy used bikes. Besides, I already own four bikes. I think that's enough. Thank you very much! :thumbsup:


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

What fork does the bike have? Wheels? I assume the Dura Ace components are 7700? 

I bought a 1999 Litespeed Ultimate in 2000 on a close out (frame and fork were $1700). I bought the parts, wheels, etc and put it together myself. I think I came out around $4000. I still ride it a lot after 12 years. Last year I rode 4800 miles and 50% of that was on the Litespeed. I plan on completely rebuilding it with Campy Chorus, new wheels and a new front end sometime soon. Its a great bike. It does not flex or shimmy, and I've ridden it down some really big mountians pretty fast. 

Its an old bike, but if it really has that low miles, $1500 would be a good price. No more than $2000. Looking on ebay is a good idea. Titanium Litespeeds are fast approaching things of the past. The Lynskey ones are slated to be classics by some folks. Even though this is a 2002, it was still made when Litespeed resembled the company when it was owned by the Lynskey family. It really doesn't anymore.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Oxtox said:


> the OP would do well to simply ignore the bogus 'calculations' offered...they're total crap.


 Actually, I think if we could find suitable numbers to use for bicycle frame lifespans, the Livestrong calculations would work much better.

Therefore, I wouldn't call them "total crap". The Livestrong formula does have potential, afterall!

Oh ye of little faith


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Zeet said:


> Actually, I think if we could find suitable numbers to use for bicycle frame lifespans, the Livestrong calculations would work much better.
> 
> Therefore, I wouldn't call them "total crap". The Livestrong formula does have potential, afterall!
> 
> Oh ye of little faith


Yah, but the number you came up with was crap.

I am in the 1500 price group. The DA stuff may have low miles but its old. If something craps out you are now shopping for old parts. I dont know but I am not sure I would want to go down that road. Especially if it was an only bike.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

tihsepa said:


> Yah, but the number you came up with was crap.


Well, it might not be too useful within the context of this forum, but the number doesn't preclude its usefulness within another venue, perhaps! 




> I am in the 1500 price group.


Me too, my friend! :thumbsup:

If you noticed, I also recommended that price to the OP...


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

Zeet said:


> Actually, I think if we could find suitable numbers to use for bicycle frame lifespans, the Livestrong calculations would work much better.
> 
> Therefore, I wouldn't call them "total crap". The Livestrong formula does have potential, afterall!
> 
> Oh ye of little faith


No, it's totally useless because the value doesn't scale linearly with age like that, for the reasons I pointed out earlier.


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Mr Evil said:


> No, it's totally useless because the value doesn't scale linearly with age like that, for the reasons I pointed out earlier.


There are basically three reasons that any bicycle frame will fail. It will fail from impactive force (collision), stress, or from a natural chemical nemesis within the environment (like oxidation or rust). 

Much like steel, Titanium has a fatigue limit amplitude, below which there exist no number of stress cycles that will cause it to fail. Titanium is also resistant to both oxidation and acid attack. Therefore, it not subject to corrosion, it doesn't rust, and it's not affected by mild PH changes. Titanium is therefore, an excellent candidate for a bicycle frame material that will most likely last for much longer than just a mere one hundred years.

Fatigue limit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Titanium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

Zeet said:


> There are basically three reasons that any bicycle frame will fail. It will fail from impactive force (collision), stress, or from a natural chemical nemesis within the environment (like oxidation or rust).
> 
> Much like steel, Titanium has a fatigue limit amplitude, below which there exist no number of stress cycles that will cause it to fail. Titanium is also resistant to both oxidation and acid attack. Therefore, it not subject to corrosion, it doesn't rust, and it's not affected by mild PH changes. Titanium is therefore, an excellent candidate for a bicycle frame material that will most likely last for much longer than just a mere one hundred years.
> 
> ...


You already said that before. It's not a rebuttal of any of my points...


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## Zeet (Mar 24, 2013)

Mr Evil said:


> You already said that before. It's not a rebuttal of any of my points...


Ooops, my bad...

That's right! You weren't contesting that the frame wouldn't last, you were merely stating that the components, or the parts wouldn't last, and that the cyclist himself wouldn't outlive the service life of the bicycle.

Well in that case, you weren't addressing the frame life issue at all. Which is what any bicycle frame warranty is all about, and what should be linearly related to the lifespan, or the service life of any bicycle. 

Who really cares about components or parts when discussing the predicted lifespan of a bicycle? Afterall, the frame is the heart of the bicycle, not the parts.

As for the cyclist expiring before his bicycle frame, at least he gets greater satisfaction in knowing that his Ti frame has kept both its service life and value for a very long time. He can rest assured that his most fortunate heirs will receive a most worthy bicycle, if nothing else at all.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Mr Evil said:


> You already said that before. It's not a rebuttal of any of my points...


For a guy who has been a member here for a few weeks, he sure does have a lot of posts and knowledge to dispense. 

Wikipedia -- now there's the ultimate reference.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Zeet said:


> Reference links concerning recurring problem with the Vortex:
> 
> www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-362243-p-2.html
> 
> ...


Perfect example of what happens when a company is sold off to a corporation.

Lifetime Warranties are a starting point when assessing a buy - typically they don't transfer but if they are offered it's a sign that the company feels fairly secure with the product

I bought some "Lifetime" siding 20+ years ago, if you buy the product now it is "20 years". I'm opting to reside with a different product at this point vs. having to deal with it again in 20 years.


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