# Questions on Chorus 11 Speed for you Campy experts



## Taskmaxter (Apr 11, 2004)

Guys, I'm planning on building up a frame and I think I'm going to go with Campy Chorus 11 speed (first time for me since I usually run Shimano). Being the I'm a total newbie when it comes to Campy I need a little help.

1) Are there any differences between the 2009 Chorus 11 speed groupo and the 2010 groupo? Would you buy one over the other?
2) Can is use my existing 10 speed Mavic SL wheels (2009) with the Chorus 11 Speed casstte and Groupo, or do I need to buy a different wheel set due to the size of the 11 speed cassette?
3) Any place in particular you might order this groupo from? I'm looking for a good price from a reputable source.

Anything else I should think about going this route? 

Thank much.


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## RayGun (Dec 8, 2006)

The 2010 cogs will go up to 29t if that's a concern to you.

I just purchased the 2009 group for $1,200 (USD) from Merlin Cycles in the UK.

My wheels are Mavic 2006 SLs and there was no problem fitting the 11 speed cog on the rear.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2010)

Ribblecycles has it for under $1100 right now. They show it out of stock under groupsets but if you look up the individual pieces only the cups are out of stock.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*

The RD for 2010 is compatible with a 12-29, while the 2009 is not. From what I've been able to gather, it only requires one part to covert a 2009 RD.

Check out Shiny Bikes or Ribble for low prices - both $1100 or less.

Your wheels will work fine, but if you now have a Shimano cassette, you'll need a new cassette body with the Campy splines.


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## Taskmaxter (Apr 11, 2004)

Thanks everyone. I think I would want the 2010 then since I would like that option to go with the 12-29. I've had some folks tell me that I will need to change out my rear hub (from Shimano 10 speed) to work with Campy. From this thread I can't tell if this is what you are also telling me or if this is not actually necessary. I've I have to change the hub, is this expensive? (sounds like it might be)


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

You could use that wheel and the hub, but you would need to change part of the hub. The freehub can be swapped, sounds like you have a shimano one now, but it can be changed to campy to work with the 11 speed cassette.


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## Taskmaxter (Apr 11, 2004)

kytyree said:


> You could use that wheel and the hub, but you would need to change part of the hub. The freehub can be swapped, sounds like you have a shimano one now, but it can be changed to campy to work with the 11 speed cassette.



Thanks - I just checked out online how to replace a freehub and it's not as invasive as I thought it was. Where did you guys pick up the Campy compatible freehubs from? The local LBS?


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## voodooguy (Aug 18, 2007)

I got my Shimano to Campy cassette conversion here: http://www.speedgoat.com/

Take a look at Texas Cyclesport. There is an instant rebate on the chorus 8 piece that brings it to 1350. This is for the 2010 model. I e-mailed them to confirm. 

http://www.texascyclesport.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=3178


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*Excel...*

http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?...scription=Cassette+Body+FTSL&vendorCode=MAVIC

You need the ED10 body. Takes about 10 minutes to install.


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## Double-IPA (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm also thinking of Chorus. Seems that some people upgrade the brake calipers to Record because they like the black color, but Record also has bearings vs bushings in Chorus. Any performance or durability issues or differences between the two? Is it worth spending more money? Thanks!


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

If you want black brakes, get a set of mavic ssc brakes - the best brakes in the world! I have 'em on an otherwise all chorus (10 speed) bike.


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

just curious - what's the difference between chorus and record? 

i've heard that there is a difference in the bearings used in the brakes, anything else?


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Double-IPA said:


> I'm also thinking of Chorus. Seems that some people upgrade the brake calipers to Record because they like the black color, but Record also has bearings vs bushings in Chorus. Any performance or durability issues or differences between the two? Is it worth spending more money? Thanks!


I'm one of those. I paid about $80 more for Record brakes, it was "worth" it to me, but YMMV.

Comparing to a friend's Chorus skeleton brakes, the geometry seems identical, so I don't expect any braking performance differences. I did replace pads with Koolstop Salmon, mainly because they're softer and I expect rim wear will be reduced ... I'd rather replace $10 pads more frequently, than Campy Shamal wheels 

Record calipers are ~40g lighter, if you're shaving grams. The Record crankset is the only other component with "significant" weight difference.

re caliper bearings (Record) vs bushings (Chorus), I have only about 2500 miles on the groupset, so I can't really say about multi-year longevity. I do a full sponge-wash on the bike every month, and haven't noticed any degradation of smoothness of the Record calipers. Whatever bearings Campy uses, appear to be well-sealed against incidental water & moisture. My other bike, with Tektro calipers (bushings), doesn't feel anywhere near as nice and smooth.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

r_mutt said:


> just curious - what's the difference between chorus and record?
> 
> i've heard that there is a difference in the bearings used in the brakes, anything else?


IIRC, other _major_ difference is crankset.

-- hollow carbon crankarms on Record , about 40g (?) lighter.
-- better bearings on Record (? ceramic balls, 'better' steel alloy races) ... should be more tolerant of moisture, and IIRC are re-greasable.


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## thedog (Nov 6, 2005)

Taskmaxter:

May be totally worthless advice to most on this forum, but if you are a newbie to Campy 11 (like I am) and you are switching from Shimano, make sure to go easy when shifting from the big to small chainring. If you jam the left thumbshifter down to hard, you'll often throw the chain...regardless of FD adjustment. I learned this the hard way after droppping my chain a few times (albiet sporadically). Never had the issue when throwing the small FD lever using Shimano. But you will find the upgrade to Campy is awesome (especially the brakes).


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

thedog said:


> Taskmaxter:
> 
> May be totally worthless advice to most on this forum, but if you are a newbie to Campy 11 (like I am) and you are switching from Shimano, make sure to go easy when shifting from the big to small chainring. If you jam the left thumbshifter down to hard, you'll often throw the chain...regardless of FD adjustment. I learned this the hard way after droppping my chain a few times (albiet sporadically). Never had the issue when throwing the small FD lever using Shimano. But you will find the upgrade to Campy is awesome (especially the brakes).


This has happened to me several times in 2500 miles riding.
It seems more likely to happen when I'm in the big ring, and biggest or 2nd biggest cog, ie when you're _needing_ to shift to small chainring.

What seems to be happening is that in the big-big combo, the chain is noticeably angled and under some _lateral_ tension, especially with shorter chainstay length.

Then, when fast-shifting to small chainring (with or without a simultaneous shift to smaller rear cog), that extra sideways tension in the chain can be enough to throw the chain off , inboard.

My temporary workaround is to slightly slow the chainring downshift, by momentarily delaying that last final click , and/or first shifting the rear cogs at least 1-2 cogs smaller ... neither of which is desireable, especially in a race or a fast paceline, where you don't want to lose any forward velocity.

I'm close to installing a chain guard or catcher as a robust 'solution' -- either a home-made, K-Edge, or Rotor model. The oversized, oval, tapered seat tube on my bike does not accomodate a cheap, simple chain guard, such as the Deda "dog fang" design.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*more...*

I've never dropped a chain in two seasons of riding 10 and 11 speed compacts, but I've also been using Campy since 1995. I guess I never mash the thumb button that hard.

One other possible contributor to the problem, other than needing to loosen the low limit screw, is ultra-short chainstays. I had a similar problem with a Cervelo R3 that I sold after only 200 miles of use. Those have a 399mm chainstay length. The only way to keep from dropping the chain was to shift from the 23, at least down to the 21 before making the chainring shift, or it would drop the chain nearly every time. That same crank and FD worked perfectly on several other frames. No amount of FD adjusting cured the problem.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

C-40 said:


> ...
> One other possible contributor to the problem, other than needing to tighten the low limit screw, is ultra-short chainstays. I had a similar problem with a Cervelo R3 that I sold after only 200 miles of use. Those have a 399mm chainstay length. The only way to keep from dropping the chain was to shift from the 23, at least down to the 21 before making the chainring shift, or it would drop the chain nearly every time..


Yes, I think that's what I'm experiencing : 405 mm chainstay length on my Specialized Tarmac. That extra few mm is enough to make my chain-drop occurrence infrequent, but not zero. 

When shifting from the 25 or 23 cog, I first shift 1-2 cogs smaller, before shifting to the 34t chainring ... rather than simultaneously. This seems to prevent the chain drop. 

Of course, I'd need to go 3-4 cogs smaller _anyway_ , when shifting from 50 to 34 chainring, so I suppose my workaround isn't a big deal. Some would say I shouldn't be running 50-23 or 50-25 in the first place, but sometimes it happens for brief periods :shrug:


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## thedog (Nov 6, 2005)

tom_h and c-40:

Thanks much for sharing your experiences. I also ride a tarmac SL2 which has the 405mm chainstays. I agree with you solution "...temporary workaround is to slightly slow the chainring downshift, by momentarily delaying that last final click". ....this seems to work the best for me to avoid chain drop. I too am thinking about a chain catcher - would hate to drive all the way to a race a drop chain mid-pack. 

FYI - my FD gets 4 clicks, cable routing correct, with low limit screw appropriate (actually have tried w/ slight rubbing inner cage in small chainring to avoid chain drop), but so far i think it comes down to not slamming the left thumb shifter down and instead going easy on it. You can get away with throwing the small shifter over on Shimano as hard as you want, but it appears campy requires just a little finesse. 

Having said all of this, I wouldn't trade my campy 11 for anything.......


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

thedog said:


> tom_h and c-40:
> 
> Having said all of this, I wouldn't trade my campy 11 for anything.......


You could try one of these:

http://cycling.lohudblogs.com/2009/06/28/kristin-armstrongs-chain-catcher-ready-for-the-tour/


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Yes, that's the K-Edge chain guard mentioned above.


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## thedog (Nov 6, 2005)

After reading tom_h's idea about a chain watcher, and doing a little research, I found an interesting article on the different types of chain watchers. As you will see in the article, Ballan, Wiggins, M. Rogers and Bettini use them.

Check it out: http://coachlevi.com/cycling/prevent-dropped-chain/


(The site above even has a link on how to shave your legs!)


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

*Chorus shifters*



Double-IPA said:


> I'm also thinking of Chorus. Seems that some people upgrade the brake calipers to Record because they like the black color, but Record also has bearings vs bushings in Chorus. Any performance or durability issues or differences between the two? Is it worth spending more money? Thanks!



According to the guys at Competitive Cyclist, the Chorus shifters use bearings as well. The bushing idea was scrapped.


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

Can you use 11 speed Record BB with 11 speed Chorus, it says record only on the box?


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

Eyorerox said:


> Can you use 11 speed Record BB with 11 speed Chorus, it says record only on the box?


Chorus 11, Record 11, and Super Record 11 all use the same BB. The only difference is the finish, black vs silver.:thumbsup:


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

thedog said:


> After reading tom_h's idea about a chain watcher, and doing a little research, I found an interesting article on the different types of chain watchers. As you will see in the article, Ballan, Wiggins, M. Rogers and Bettini use them.
> 
> Check it out: http://coachlevi.com/cycling/prevent-dropped-chain/
> 
> ...


Check out the link to Ballan's bike.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/phot...7/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/BallanBike007

From this angle, it looks like the chain catcher is designed to keep his chain on the big ring!!


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

kevin32 said:


> Chorus 11, Record 11, and Super Record 11 all use the same BB. The only difference is finish, black vs silver.


If you mean the bearing cups that screw into the BB shell of frame, I don't think that's quite correct. Also note that, the bearings themselves are press-fit onto the two halves of crankset.

1) There is no Chorus-specific cup. Chorus groupset uses a Record cup.

2) Super Record cups can only be used with the all-ceramic bearings used on Super Record cranks. I think they lack a seal, but there may be other differences, too.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*the facts...*



Eyorerox said:


> Can you use 11 speed Record BB with 11 speed Chorus, it says record only on the box?


The bearings are press fit onto the spindles, not into the cups and all models have the same dimensions. Chorus and lower have conventional steel bearings, Record has a ceramic hybrid and SR has CULT ceramic bearings. 

There are only two cups. The SR model has no onner seal and should only be used with SR CULT bearings. The rest use Record cups that have inner seals.


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

tom_h said:


> If you mean the bearing cups that screw into the BB shell of frame, I don't think that's quite correct. Also note that, the bearings themselves are press-fit onto the two halves of crankset.
> 
> 1) There is no Chorus-specific cup. Chorus groupset uses a Record cup.
> 
> 2) Super Record cups can only be used with the all-ceramic bearings used on Super Record cranks. I think they lack a seal, but there may be other differences, too.


I've used both Record 10 and Super Record 11 BB cups with Record 10 (non-ceramic) and SR 11 cranks. There is no difference and they are interchangable as well. Check Competitive Cyclist if you need to verify. Hope this helps


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## cendres (Dec 18, 2002)

tom_h said:


> 2) Super Record cups can only be used with the all-ceramic bearings used on Super Record cranks. I think they lack a seal, but there may be other differences, too.


How does that work? I have never seen a photo showing how a seal is integrated into the Record/Chorus 11 cups, and I am having some trouble visualizing it. 

The reason I ask is that I have recently installed SR cups in two frames, one using a SR crankset and one using Record 11. As it is still very much winter here on the tundra, the Record-cranked bike hasn't been ridden yet. Now I'm wondering if those bearings are going to be very short lived once I do get to ride the bike. Would someone be so kind as to clue me in?

BTW, I have the same issue with downshifting to the small ring (53/39) on both bikes. It is supremely frustrating, as my previous Record 10 had no such issue.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

On the 2009 Campy Spare Parts lists (available at campy's website), look at the section on cranksets. 

It shows what appears to be the inner cup seal, part # OC-RE002, on Record cups (also used for Chorus), but NO seal on Super Record cups.

Whether that seal will directly fit into Super Record cups, I personally don't know. But since all dimensions are same (see C-40's post above), maybe it will.

Competitive Cyclist's advice to use cups interchangeably seems wrong to me. It was my understanding, which could be wrong, that the ceramic CULT bearings on Super Record don't need the inner seal due to CULT's enhanced durability.

Using Chorus or Record bearings with Super Record cups could lead to premature bearing wearout, if riding in wet weather.


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## cendres (Dec 18, 2002)

Ah, so they're inner seals. That makes far more sense. Thanks for help.

Has anyone tried adding these (OC-RE002) to the SR cups? I suspect the cups are otherwise identical besides the anodizing? On a bike almost never ridden in the rain, I wonder if it's even worth being concerned...


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

cendres said:


> How does that work? I have never seen a photo showing how a seal is integrated into the Record/Chorus 11 cups, and I am having some trouble visualizing it.
> 
> The reason I ask is that I have recently installed SR cups in two frames, one using a SR crankset and one using Record 11. As it is still very much winter here on the tundra, the Record-cranked bike hasn't been ridden yet. Now I'm wondering if those bearings are going to be very short lived once I do get to ride the bike. Would someone be so kind as to clue me in?
> 
> BTW, I have the same issue with downshifting to the small ring (53/39) on both bikes. It is supremely frustrating, as my previous Record 10 had no such issue.


Campagnolo uses the same bottom bracket cups for 10 speed and 11 speed. I've used SR 11 "black finish" cups with both Record 10 and SR 11 cranks. There is no such thing as SR 11 specific cups. The silver Record cups are still available because some people want the traditional silver finish like they use to get on the 10 speed groups. The new SR 11 cups are black to match the SR 11 group colors. I have multiple sets of both cups at home and they are all identical except for the color.

What's your downshifting problem as my Record 10 and SR 11 shifting has been flawless?


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

RayGun said:


> The 2010 cogs will go up to 29t if that's a concern to you.
> 
> I just purchased the 2009 group for $1,200 (USD) from Merlin Cycles in the UK.
> 
> My wheels are Mavic 2006 SLs and there was no problem fitting the 11 speed cog on the rear.


Carefull, as you cannot use the new 29t cog unless you either have the 2010 rear derailluer or have modified your 2009 rear derailluer.  I have the 2009 SR 11 rear derailluer and I had to order a $6 part from Campy to make it compatible with the 29t rear cog. If you don't make the modification, the 2009 rear derailluer can only go up to a 27t cog.


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

C-40 said:


> The RD for 2010 is compatible with a 12-29, while the 2009 is not. From what I've been able to gather, it only requires one part to covert a 2009 RD.
> 
> Check out Shiny Bikes or Ribble for low prices - both $1100 or less.
> 
> Your wheels will work fine, but if you now have a Shimano cassette, you'll need a new cassette body with the Campy splines.


You are very correct. The part is $6.:thumbsup:


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

C-40 said:


> The bearings are press fit onto the spindles, not into the cups and all models have the same dimensions. Chorus and lower have conventional steel bearings, Record has a ceramic hybrid and SR has CULT ceramic bearings.
> 
> There are only two cups. The SR model has no onner seal and should only be used with SR CULT bearings. The rest use Record cups that have inner seals.


I stand corrected. Record cups indeed use an extra inner seal and should be used on the Chorus cranks as well. I wonder why Campagnolo says they are interchangable then?

www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/downloader/docid_139.jsp


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

kevin32 said:


> Is that new for 2010 models? I used 2009 SR 11 cranks with 10 speed Record BB cups with zero problems.


SR cranks having the durable ceramic CULT bearings, used on Record cups, is probably not an issue -- the Record cups have the inner seal (see my post #31).

The other way around -- Record cranks having conventional bearings, installed on seal-less SR cups -- may not be desireable if you are prone to getting moisture inside the frame's BB housing.


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## cendres (Dec 18, 2002)

kevin32 said:


> What's your downshifting problem as my Record 10 and SR 11 shifting has been flawless?


Ninety-eight out of 100 times, it is perfect. But occasionally when downshifting to the small ring while on the 3 or 4 largest cogs, it will intermittently throw the chain. Soft-shifting, as mentioned above, seemingly is a solution but in the heat of the moment, I'm not sure I can rely on myself to slow down and shift _oh-so-carefully_. And frankly, I don't think I should have to. With my old 7-, 8-, 9-, and 10-speed groups, I could slam-shift all day long and they never, ever threw the chain. 

I've tried everything I can think of to cure this. I've moved the derailleur up the seat tube, down the seat tube, toed it in, toed it out, screwed with the limit screws and cable tensions endlessly. No matter what I do, every time I think I've got it licked, it will still randomly toss the chain. The cable is routed correctly, over the protrusion on the FD arm.


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

cendres said:


> Ninety-eight out of 100 times, it is perfect. But occasionally when downshifting to the small ring while on the 3 or 4 largest cogs, it will intermittently throw the chain. Soft-shifting, as mentioned above, seemingly is a solution but in the heat of the moment, I'm not sure I can rely on myself to slow down and shift _oh-so-carefully_. And frankly, I don't think I should have to. With my old 7-, 8-, 9-, and 10-speed groups, I could slam-shift all day long and they never, ever threw the chain.
> 
> I've tried everything I can think of to cure this. I've moved the derailleur up the seat tube, down the seat tube, toed it in, toed it out, screwed with the limit screws and cable tensions endlessly. No matter what I do, every time I think I've got it licked, it will still randomly toss the chain. The cable is routed correctly, over the protrusion on the FD arm.


I'm guessing it's the derailluer because that twice happened to me on my old Cervelo SLC-SL with Campy SR 11 while under load and trying to quickly shift to an easier gear. I was coming off a fast downhill that went almost instantly into a sharp uphill, so I guess it was my fault for not anticipating the shift sooner. That same group is now on a new frame and that problem has disappeared. 

However, I had a new problem in that the upshift to the large front ring twice caused chain drop/suck because the outer adjustment was too short, which caused the large ring to fail engaging the chain. Instead of falling back onto the small ring, it completely flew off onto the BB. Ripped the finish on the frame and this was right after having it adjusted by a very well known shop. Guess every mechanic has a bad day.


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## cendres (Dec 18, 2002)

Both bikes are using SR11 FDs and Chorus 11 chains, and both behave about the same. If I shift slowly, no problem. If I do a quick, full-travel shift, often it works fine, sometimes it doesn't. I'm out of ideas, so I'm granny-shifting it on the trainer for now, and hoping someone else might have an idea I haven't tried. 

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of the group, but I don't think so.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*???*



kevin32 said:


> I stand corrected. Record cups indeed use an extra inner seal and should be used on the Chorus cranks as well. I wonder why Campagnolo says they are interchangable then?
> 
> www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/downloader/docid_139.jsp


Where do you get that idea? SR cups are only shown with SR cranks. The dimensions are the same but all cranks other than SR need the seals. You can get the seals separately and put them in the SR cups, but they don't come with the seals.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*wrong...*



kevin32 said:


> Campagnolo uses the same bottom bracket cups for 10 speed and 11 speed. I've used SR 11 "black finish" cups with both Record 10 and SR 11 cranks. There is no such thing as SR 11 specific cups. The silver Record cups are still available because some people want the traditional silver finish like they use to get on the 10 speed groups. The new SR 11 cups are black to match the SR 11 group colors. I have multiple sets of both cups at home and they are all identical except for the color.
> 
> What's your downshifting problem as my Record 10 and SR 11 shifting has been flawless?



As noted elsewhere, this is not correct. Using no inner seal on a Record or lower crank could lead to short lived bearings. It's not just water to worry about. Dirst gets inot the BB sheel is there is a drain hole. I've found sand particles in my BB shells.


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

cendres said:


> Both bikes are using SR11 FDs and Chorus 11 chains, and both behave about the same. If I shift slowly, no problem. If I do a quick, full-travel shift, often it works fine, sometimes it doesn't. I'm out of ideas, so I'm granny-shifting it on the trainer for now, and hoping someone else might have an idea I haven't tried.
> 
> Perhaps I'm expecting too much of the group, but I don't think so.


I've definitely found the 11 speed group to be a bit more finicky. The 10 speed group was pretty bomb proof. I'm sure 11 will get there someday. Good Luck


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## kevin32 (Mar 27, 2008)

C-40 said:


> Where do you get that idea? SR cups are only shown with SR cranks. The dimensions are the same but all cranks other than SR need the seals. You can get the seals separately and put them in the SR cups, but they don't come with the seals.


I believe that's what the link I posted shows and verifies what you said previosuly. That the Record 11 BB cups use spacers (Part #OC-RE002), while the Super Record does not. 

My personal experience after 1000s of miles using Record 10 cranks with SR 11 BB, was that performance and durability did not suffer. However, knowing what I know now, I would use the BB Campy specifies.


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