# Mavic Ksyrium SSC SL's - hub disintegration?



## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

Anyone have something like this happen to them? Wheels are 3 years old and have 3-4k on them.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

This is the perfect reason not to try and drive a wheel from the ND. What has happened is the excessive force on your hub shell has caused it to break. A normal hub would have the force transfered from pedaling transfered directly to the hub flange. This means that the pauls or ratchets are outside of the cassette body which will strain the hub shell much less. Instead these hubs have a extension of the hub shell that is required to be inside the cassette body which in turn applies excessive stress to a small lever arm inside the cassette body. The excessive torsional force being transfered to an aluminum shell is likely to fail. This all can be avoided by driving the wheel from the DS. I am afraid that your destroyed hub is due to a very poorly conceived design.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

If I'm interpreting the pic correctly- It appears that the plastic bushing is worn out. This usu produces noise & eventually may allow direct pressure contact between freehub & main hub with the results shown. Life of these wheels may be prolonged by following Mavic tech recommendation- service/lubrication of freehub with mineral oil every 1,000mi or so. 
I've heard other reports of similar failures but at much higher mileage than 3-4k. 
FWIW- I agree with Zen that Mavic's freehub design is suboptimal, but my 06 SSC SLs have over 3k miles on 'em with no issues (yet??). Hubs are quiet & my plastic bushing still looks fine.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

could you replace the plastic bushing with a real bearing? all you need are the inner, outter and width dimensions of bushing.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

There are some people out there doing that. I've seen aftermarket F'hub bodies on eBay and the like pre-equipped that way.

FWIW I know a lot of racers who have put a LOT of miles on K wheels without trouble, I'm talking 10,000 miles and 100 days racing, they are pretty tough all in all.


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## vortechcoupe (Jun 6, 2006)

Zen Cyclery said:


> This is the perfect reason not to try and drive a wheel from the ND. What has happened is the excessive force on your hub shell has caused it to break. A normal hub would have the force transfered from pedaling transfered directly to the hub flange. This means that the pauls or ratchets are outside of the cassette body which will strain the hub shell much less. Instead these hubs have a extension of the hub shell that is required to be inside the cassette body which in turn applies excessive stress to a small lever arm inside the cassette body. The excessive torsional force being transfered to an aluminum shell is likely to fail. This all can be avoided by driving the wheel from the DS. I am afraid that your destroyed hub is due to a very poorly conceived design.



So you really think a chunk of alum that is less then 2 inches long actually twist that much?? Come on man....

I don't like mavic products either but that just doesn't fly. Torque will transfer fine. But radial drive spokes, and crossed non-drive only cause a problem of the non-drive side going slack since then have less tension (due to dish) and also trying to drive the wheel. Not sure if that made since when typed out but i think you understand. Driving spokes should be the ones with the most tension, ie drive side spokes.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

vortechcoupe said:


> So you really think a chunk of alum that is less then 2 inches long actually twist that much?? Come on man....
> 
> I don't like mavic products either but that just doesn't fly. Torque will transfer fine. But radial drive spokes, and crossed non-drive only cause a problem of the non-drive side going slack since then have less tension (due to dish) and also trying to drive the wheel. Not sure if that made since when typed out but i think you understand. Driving spokes should be the ones with the most tension, ie drive side spokes.


The Ds spokes are radial so the power is transfered from the crossed spokes on the ND.


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## -dustin (Jan 11, 2009)

seen that 2 times in 2 years on 2 different rear SLs.


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## markj2k4 (Jun 25, 2009)

Oldteen said:


> If I'm interpreting the pic correctly- It appears that the plastic bushing is worn out. This usu produces noise & eventually may allow direct pressure contact between freehub & main hub with the results shown. Life of these wheels may be prolonged by following Mavic tech recommendation- service/lubrication of freehub with mineral oil every 1,000mi or so.
> I've heard other reports of similar failures but at much higher mileage than 3-4k.
> FWIW- I agree with Zen that Mavic's freehub design is suboptimal, but my 06 SSC SLs have over 3k miles on 'em with no issues (yet??). Hubs are quiet & my plastic bushing still looks fine.


while that is a very real issue with nearly all mavic wheelsets, thats not even close to the problem illustrated in the picture provided. the picture shows that the hub has actually sheered/severed in half on the drive side, causing the pawl/hub assembly to completely separate from the hub shell.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

markj2k4 said:


> while that is a very real issue with nearly all mavic wheelsets, thats not even close to the problem illustrated in the picture provided. the picture shows that the hub has actually sheered/severed in half on the drive side, causing the pawl/hub assembly to completely separate from the hub shell.


From what I can tell on my SL's (as well as tech Mavic diagrams) the hub nose is not a separate assembly. To further explain the (POSSIBLE-not saying that's what happened with OP's wheel) issue- as the plastic bushing wears badly lateral play of the freehub body on the hub nose (section of the hub with the pawls) can develop. 

http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguemechanic/
(scroll down to Mavic Freehub body Sep 07)

With the force of pedaling the wobbling of that freehub can cause assymetric force to be repeatedly applied to the hub nose. Over time hub nose can fail. (At least that's the theory I've heard)

OTOH- other similar SL hub failures have been reported & Mavic apparently has covered at least some of these under warranty.

http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguemechanic/2007/05/mavic_ksyrium_s.html
(see also follow-up on same web site).

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=113674&highlight=mavic+hub+failure

If these were my wheels at such low mileage I would certainly contact Mavic (through a dealer) & see what they say.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

cmg said:


> could you replace the plastic bushing with a real bearing? all you need are the inner, outter and width dimensions of bushing.


The funny thing is that the original design of Mavic' s hub had a bearing instead of a bushing. I have the original cross lands (same hub design as the original heliums) which used a bearing instead of a bushing. Mavic went to the bushing because it was lighter and I would guess cheaper to manufacture.


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## markj2k4 (Jun 25, 2009)

Oldteen said:


> From what I can tell on my SL's (as well as tech Mavic diagrams) the hub nose is not a separate assembly. To further explain the (POSSIBLE-not saying that's what happened with OP's wheel) issue- as the plastic bushing wears badly lateral play of the freehub body on the hub nose (section of the hub with the pawls) can develop.
> 
> http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguemechanic/
> (scroll down to Mavic Freehub body Sep 07)
> ...



that's really interesting, i never considered that, im pretty vigilant on maintaining all of my mavic wheelsets (i have a couple different ones) but now ill be especially sure to keep up with is... especially on the ksyrium sl's i always ride.


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

All very interesting input and theories, thank you. With regards to the maintainence the wheel received, I can assure you I've exceeded the recommended schedule, cleaning and lubing the hub at the start and end of every season (I ride less than 1k per season). In fact, 2k miles ago, I replaced the freehub body because I thought the teflon ring was worn due to the drag I was experiencing with the wheel (which I learned was normal). So, if anything, it's all overly new, if you will.

Mavic's first response was "The wheel is out of warranty." So I had it sent in for evaluation to see if that changes their mind. If they only replace the hub and restring the wheel I'll be happy with them, I'm not looking for a free wheel, the rim is mint due to such low miles (but I'm told that you should use new spokes when these are detensioned). I could be convinced this is a rare manufacturing defect/whatever, and stay with Mavic, but I judge companies (vendors and bike shops) by how they handle issues like this, not by product quality alone.


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't buy it, the axle would help keep things in line (mostly) and what would probably happen is the bearing in the outer part of the freehub body (and likely nose) would start to give way (noise, movement, etc.). ALL bearings were replaced in this wheel last season, again over concern of drag in the wheel, which I'm told is normal.

The wheel(s) are in excellent condition, this is clearly a rare but known issue with the hub. I'm willing to accept that happens and as the post above says, he's seen in twice in 2 years. That says that SOMETHING is up, even if it doesn't happen enough to warrant a recall.

It's like Fight Club and the explanation of car recalls ;-)


Oldteen said:


> From what I can tell on my SL's (as well as tech Mavic diagrams) the hub nose is not a separate assembly. To further explain the (POSSIBLE-not saying that's what happened with OP's wheel) issue- as the plastic bushing wears badly lateral play of the freehub body on the hub nose (section of the hub with the pawls) can develop.
> 
> http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguemechanic/
> (scroll down to Mavic Freehub body Sep 07)
> ...


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

ironmike said:


> It's like Fight Club and the explanation of car recalls ;-)


... and a wise man once said.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

ironmike said:


> I don't buy it, the axle would help keep things in line (mostly) and what would probably happen is the bearing in the outer part of the freehub body (and likely nose) would start to give way (noise, movement, etc.). ALL bearings were replaced in this wheel last season, again over concern of drag in the wheel, which I'm told is normal.
> 
> The wheel(s) are in excellent condition, this is clearly a rare but known issue with the hub. I'm willing to accept that happens and as the post above says, he's seen in twice in 2 years. That says that SOMETHING is up, even if it doesn't happen enough to warrant a recall.
> 
> It's like Fight Club and the explanation of car recalls ;-)


Bearings replaced at under 3-4k? Should last longer than that. If not- could be an indication that something (misalignment?? is putting unusual stress on 'em.

Bottom line- Hope Mavic does the right thing & replaces that hub.


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## TJWest (Jul 15, 2009)

Zen Cyclery said:


> This is the perfect reason not to try and drive a wheel from the ND. What has happened is the excessive force on your hub shell has caused it to break. A normal hub would have the force transfered from pedaling transfered directly to the hub flange. This means that the pauls or ratchets are outside of the cassette body which will strain the hub shell much less. Instead these hubs have a extension of the hub shell that is required to be inside the cassette body which in turn applies excessive stress to a small lever arm inside the cassette body. The excessive torsional force being transfered to an aluminum shell is likely to fail. This all can be avoided by driving the wheel from the DS. I am afraid that your destroyed hub is due to a very poorly conceived design.


You're absolutely right, GT went through this when they designed a rear disc brake hub about ten years ago. They greatly underestimated the torsional flex of the hub shell and viola! Failures! Aluminum hasa very unique property nbody seems to mention too much -  Fatigue!

BTW... Mavic will tell you that if you haven't serviced your freehub every week, you'll have a failure of some kind and oh - they have also told me that you should change your freehub body out every year. Thanks for that input Bill, can you tell me where that is stated online or in the owners manual..? :mad2: Mavic + 2009 = FAIL! :mad2:


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

One of the bearings was a little gritty, so I chose to replace them all at once. But you bring up a good point, perhaps this is indeed a manufacturing defect.

I'll let you know what I hear from them, but so far it's silencio. Not sure I trust the company with my next set of wheels to be honest. I had a pair of Open Pro rims on my previous bike and they made a clicking noise that the bike shop fixed by whacking the joint with a philips head screwdriver/hammer. It worked, but ...

Shame really, I liked riding on the SSC SL's, very nice handling and so light (which is just cool, not really helping me as i'm not that light at 210 pounds).

I'm going with a custom build Velocity/ChrisKing set up next. 



Oldteen said:


> Bearings replaced at under 3-4k? Should last longer than that. If not- could be an indication that something (misalignment?? is putting unusual stress on 'em.
> 
> Bottom line- Hope Mavic does the right thing & replaces that hub.


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## rmsmith (Feb 15, 2007)

ssauter said:


> The funny thing is that the original design of Mavic' s hub had a bearing instead of a bushing. I have the original cross lands (same hub design as the original heliums) which used a bearing instead of a bushing. Mavic went to the bushing because it was lighter and I would guess cheaper to manufacture.


 How about some contrast: Here's a Chris King hub in a cut-away view, and a drive shell depicting its helical engagement scheme.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

The thing I don't like about the Chris King freehub is that the freewheeling sound is so frantic. The one time I heard someone walking a bike with one I had to do a double-take as I thought three or four bikes were walking passed me when it was only one guy. Oh, and they don't offer a Campy freehub.


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

It can sound like a freight train for all I care, as long as it doesn't SNAP!


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

-dustin said:


> seen that 2 times in 2 years on 2 different rear SLs.


You've seen this type of shearing?


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## ozarkbikeracer1 (Jan 30, 2009)

When I first saw the picture on this post, I thought someone had taken a picture of MY wheel. Mine looked exactly like that when it failed back in May. I took it to my LBS and they said they had never seen one do that. Granted, I did have a lot of miles on mine (probably over 25,000), but I sure never expected that from a Mavic product. You can bet I'll never own another pair of their wheels.


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm starting to feel the exact same way. They are taking forever to "evaluate" my wheel which in my experience usually means "Too bad!"


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

Just heard from LBS that they have replaced the hub!

That's pretty cool I think, though it was somewhat of a letdown that it broke like that in the first place. Still, they seem to have stood by it.


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## ironmike (Jul 6, 2009)

Just to follow up, I have the wheel back and they replaced the hub and all the spokes, for zero cost. Very impressed to be honest, I really didn't expect that given their age (albeit very low miles).

Now, unfortunately, they did take a while to evaluate and I needed wheels and went ahead and had custom wheels made.

Anyone interested in the Ksyrium SSC SL set? One of the wheels is practically brand new!


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