# What did it take to get you on tubulars? Are they really better?



## Scott in MD (Jun 24, 2008)

It seems like clinchers are just so much easier .... carry a tube rather than a tire. CHeaper. But I don't really know anyone riding tubulars ... so I wonder. How good are they? How different are they? Is repairing a flat a big deal? Any thoughts welcome....


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

Interested to hear responses too...


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## acidzerocool (Aug 1, 2007)

I would only rub tubulars if I had a team car following behind me while ridding.


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

acidzerocool said:


> I would only *RIDE* tubulars if I had a team car following behind me while ridding.



I think that is the general sentiment


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I probably don't have the answer you seek, as when I started riding racing bicycles tubulars were essentially the only way you could go. In 1972, the second from the bottom of the line Gitane (which I think was $150) had no-name tubing, a steel-cottered crank and tubular tires! We called them sewups, then. A cotton-carcassed sewup was seven bucks. A silk-carcassed sewup was ten bucks.

And for those of you who never got to ride a silk sewup, well, it's too bad they essentially don't exist anymore. They rode significantly more quietly and softly than other tires. They seemed to hug the road, giving you a marvelous, intuitive sense of grip. It's probably the only old school component that this old but thoroughly new school guy would like to see resurrected. At a reasonable price, of course.


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## BryanSayer (Sep 22, 2009)

I rode them in the 70s, because everyone did. I tried clinchers and I went back to tubulars. I think I like them better because I'm fat and I like the 160 psi ride.


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## eddie m (Jul 6, 2002)

Modern clinchers are way better than the clinchers we had 30 years ago, but not as good as high quality sew-ups. sew-ups get fewer flats, but fixing them on the road is harder. At the same pressure and width, sew-ups are more comfortable, because the sidewall is taller and more flexible. Sew-ups have a little more rolling resistance caused by compressing the glue, but better glues might change that. Sew-ups have a weight advantage as well, but that is offset by the need to carry spares. 
I'd like to ride sew-ups again, but the cost has become prohibitive.

em


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

It's nice to have a set of tubulars with good tires as a second wheelset. They're not that practical for daily riding, but if you like to go long on the weekends on relatively clean roads, they can't be beat. 

I raced on tubulars for years and I still have two tubular wheelsets, Mavic GEL330's with campy chorus hubs, and a carbon rim set with record hubs. I am a fan of continental competition tires, but Veloflex and Vittoria make some really nice ones as well. I never rolled a tire but I did get taken out by someone who did and got a cool cast out of it. 

If you want to get your feet wet, find a used tubular wheelset on eBay. If the tires are in good shape, replace the rear with a new tire and save the old one as a spare. A spare needs to be pre-stretched to make it easier to replace on the side of the road.


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## IAmSpecialized (Jul 16, 2008)

You can always buy a set of Fulcrum Racing 1's or Zero's with the 2 way fit system, then you can use either clincher or tubular.

Just an option...


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

IAmSpecialized said:


> You can always buy a set of Fulcrum Racing 1's or Zero's with the 2 way fit system, then you can use either clincher or tubular.
> 
> Just an option...


No you can't, you can use either clincher or tubeless.


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## JimP (Dec 18, 2001)

I weigh 190 lbs and ride on Conti Sprinters with 90 psi. If I try 90 psi with clinchers I get too many pinch flats. Tubulars don't have rim strips so there are no flats from a tube poking into a spoke hole. I have ridden the top line tubular tires and the ride and handling feels better than any clincher I have ever tried.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*TubeLESS versus TubULAR*

The 2-way fit accept regular tubes, and, TubeLESS tires -- not the same as glued-on, "sew-up" tubulars.



IAmSpecialized said:


> You can always buy a set of Fulcrum Racing 1's or Zero's with the 2 way fit system, then you can use either clincher or tubular.
> 
> Just an option...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I race tubulars, but generally train on clinchers. Perhaps I'd consider riding tubulars, but at this point, both work for their intended purposes. I'll say that riding/training on clinchers certainly makes tubulars feel that much better on race day.


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## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

I've got some 303s on order, and after some agonizing I thought I'd just go whole hog and do tubular. I'd rather they be really really good at one thing than okay at a couple of things.

They are essentially race day wheels, so if I flat I'm pretty much screwed anyway. The weight difference (1171 vs. 1623) is pretty significant.

If I'm going to spring for these hoops I want to wring them for every ounce of performance I can.

That said, it is agonizing still. Swapping brake pads back and forth will be lame. I won't be able to resist doing a few normal rides on them. I'll be nervous about flatting for sure. I guess I'll keep some Pit Stop on-hand when I do.

My friend owned a bike shop and is a pro at gluing them, so I'm going to watch and learn. I suspect that whole process will be similar to buying a house or going Stan's NoTubes with cyclocross tires: once you've done it a few times its not that big a deal.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

steve_e_f said:


> Swapping brake pads back and forth will be lame.


It certainly gets annoying, although I think some of the newer carbon clinchers seem to be doing alright.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Ignorance is bliss. If you ride tubulars you know why you do. If you don't you don't know what you are missing. 

I love carbon tubular wheels so much I can't bear to put anything else on the bike. I rode my Reynolds rim build all winter while commuting. I will have my Edge rims built up in a little while. Why on earth would I want to put clinchers back on my bike after using those wheels???

It's really not that big of a deal. I don't have a team car following me (no offense, but I hate that statement, I'm sure you are a cool guy). I have a spare tire and a tire lever with me. If I'm planning a longer ride, I will carry a can of sealant. If that combo doesn't get me home, I'm really having a bad day (tubular riders will agree this is a super rare occasion).

I change my tire faster than people with clinchers do (it's been commented to me before). You collect a few bad tires and if you don't want to fix them yourself, someone will do it for you for $18 a tire and they are good as new.

-Eric


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

No clincher comes anywhere close to the ride of a Veloflex Criterium tubular. Then, again, no clincher comes anywhere to the cost of a Veloflex Criterium tubular, especially when you factor in mileage. Go this route if you can afford it and feel like splurging. Making a high-end tubular your daily driver can send you to the poorhouse.

I think it's pointless to go to a cheap sewup like a Conti Sprinter. Most top end clinchers ride and handle equal or better.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

What did it take? A friend selling his tubular wheelset VERY cheap.

I might be a bit crazy. I had them on my commuter. I just carried an extra tire in my bag. I will be switching back to them in a few weeks after I see a street cleaner.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I guess the only thing stopping me is from regular use is that not too many other riders use tubulars. I've handed people a spare tube because I have two of them. I've also bummed a tube from a friend on one of THOSE days.


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## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

filtersweep said:


> What did it take? A friend selling his tubular wheelset VERY cheap.
> 
> I might be a bit crazy. I had them on my commuter. I just carried an extra tire in my bag. I will be switching back to them in a few weeks after I see a street cleaner.


so when you flat with a tubular, you can just rip it off the rim and stick a new tire on? How does that work exactly? Is tubular glue sticky like a sticker or does it harden like a cement?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

steve_e_f said:


> so when you flat with a tubular, you can just rip it off the rim and stick a new tire on? How does that work exactly? Is tubular glue sticky like a sticker or does it harden like a cement?


I keep a regular plastic tire lever with the spare (plastic won't mar the rim). I work off one part of the tire (opposite the valve stem). Once you get the lever in between the tire and the rim you have the mechanical advantage over the best glue job. You just keep working the tire until you have enough off to start yanking the tire off with your hands.

Use a spare that was an older tire that has glue on it already. You can retire a decent tire prematurely (previous front?). If it's your first set of tires ever, you can still mount a new one as a spare (let that tire stretch out on a rim for a few days first). There will be enough glue on the wheel to get some adhesion.

Most people don't realize that as you inflate the tire, it expands inward and secures itself to the rim quite well on its own. Try a to remove a fully inflated tire from a clean rim and it's pretty hard.


-Eric


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

fast ferd said:


> No clincher comes anywhere close to the ride of a Veloflex Criterium tubular. Then, again, no clincher comes anywhere to the cost of a Veloflex Criterium tubular, especially when you factor in mileage. Go this route if you can afford it and feel like splurging. Making a high-end tubular your daily driver can send you to the poorhouse.
> 
> I think it's pointless to go to a cheap sewup like a Conti Sprinter. Most top end clinchers ride and handle equal or better.


The more recent Sprinters are pretty good for a basic tire. They are in league with the best clinchers for wear and still feel a bit better overall. Years ago, they were junk.

-Eric


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Purchase & install a set of Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX-II (320 TPI) clinchers with Michelin latex tubes ... this gives an excellent approximation of the "feel" of a tubular tire.

With careful shopping at the UK retailers (PBK, Wiggle, or Ribble), the effective price of the Open Corsa is in US$ high-30s to low-40s each. Plus another $7-10 for the latex tube.


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## T-Doc (Apr 4, 2002)

started racing. Use the tubies only for racing and I can afford to replace them and pay for someone else to glue them on. Tubies and tubie wheels do "feel" better. But probably not worth it for training or everyday recreational riding.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

What he said.

To be honest, I was afraid of changing my first tubular on the road--- but it wasn't nearly as bad as I had anticipated. It is much easier than you would imagine. A deflated tubular comes off the rim relatively easily. An inflated one is impossible to remove by hand. Gluing isn't all that complicated either. I have yet to actually repair a flatted tubular--- but that being said, I have only flatted well after the natural life expectancy of the tire (although in full disclosure, as I was commuting, I was riding with sealant--- which I am quite convinced loses its effectiveness after a few years. Presumably it dries up).



ergott said:


> I keep a regular plastic tire lever with the spare (plastic won't mar the rim). I work off one part of the tire (opposite the valve stem). Once you get the lever in between the tire and the rim you have the mechanical advantage over the best glue job. You just keep working the tire until you have enough off to start yanking the tire off with your hands.
> 
> Use a spare that was an older tire that has glue on it already. You can retire a decent tire prematurely (previous front?). If it's your first set of tires ever, you can still mount a new one as a spare (let that tire stretch out on a rim for a few days first). There will be enough glue on the wheel to get some adhesion.
> 
> ...


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## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

T-Doc said:


> started racing. Use the tubies only for racing and I can afford to replace them and pay for someone else to glue them on. Tubies and tubie wheels do "feel" better. But probably not worth it for training or everyday recreational riding.


+1

train on record/open pro/32h with conti gatorskins. never flatted in three years.

race on my ambrosio nemesis/record tubulars with Challenge Criterium tires

the experience of racing hard, diving into criterium corners, makes you appreciate the "locked in rails" feeling of tubulars, almost feels like you're cornering on a big fat half inflated motorcycle tire, it just feels "secure"

hard to explain

but I love my tubulars, and love saving them for race day so I don't have to go through tires like mad. and of course I'll bring my clinchers as pit wheels to races, that kind of thing.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Not to be argumentative, but those who praise tubulars as race tire, have you done any actual comparisons with a premium quality clincher tire? I am seriously curious.

A friend rides Corsa EVO CX (tubular) as his every day tire, it seems to be identical construction as Open Corsa Evo CX-II (clincher).

Tire rolling resistance data at http://biketechreview.com/tires/rolling-resistance/475-roller-data shows the Open Corsa clincher to be only 1.3 watts worse (at 31 mph !) than the highest rated tubular, the Vittoria Crono Evo CS -- an ultralight & fragile TT tire.

My understanding is that a tubular may be marginally safer on a blowout -- important if you're racing 60 mph downhill! -- but other than that ?? 

That the wheels are slightly lighter (200g typical?) won't matter on flat or rolling hills, and is doubtful even on a steep incline -- fitness and race tactics trump a couple hundred grams.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tom_h said:


> Not to be argumentative, but those who praise tubulars as race tire, have you done any actual comparisons with a premium quality clincher tire? I am seriously curious.


I have owned all sorts of clinchers. I still have some. I've had Reynolds DV46 clinchers and Edge Composites 38mm clinchers. I used both with Michelin Pro Race Limited Editions.
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/michelin special edition.htm
These tires were a relatively small batch that was made one year. They clearly rode better than regular Pro Race 2s. Low mileage, but great feel. Still, a pair of Veloflex Carbons ride better. 

The problem with that test for me is it's performed on a smooth drum. The results are too close to the margin of error in the SRM. The SRM pro is accurate to about 3%. The power required to get 51kph has to be at least 200W on a roller so the differences in the tires is just noise in the results.

Anyway, you have to look past just the tire choice. The combination of lightweight aero rims (you can have your cake and eat it too) with a the best tubular tires is just too good to pass up. I don't know many people that have tried the best and didn't think is was worth it.

-Eric


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## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

*well*



tom_h said:


> Not to be argumentative, but those who praise tubulars as race tire, have you done any actual comparisons with a premium quality clincher tire? I am seriously curious.
> 
> A friend rides Corsa EVO CX (tubular) as his every day tire, it seems to be identical construction as Open Corsa Evo CX-II (clincher).
> 
> ...


My only thing to offer is 

1) The resistance is a moot point, IMO. I mean really, how much does a mm of hardened epoxy glue "squirm" anyways? Impossible to measure on the road with a PM within a margin of error. I don't think there is a speed difference, period, except for that which is accounted for in lower tubular weight.

2) Feel. This, admittedly subjectively, is a winner for tubies. Comparing my Challenge Criterium tubies to Michelin PR3 with butyl tubes... I think they just feel more supple.

3) Cornering. Again, subjective. I slid out on a fast downhill 90 degree crit corner for no apparent reason with my PR3's, rashed up really bad. One second cornering fine, next second lost my wheel. Might have been a wheel bump from behind I dunno. Either way, I just feel infinitely more confident and "inspired to push the envelope" with my tubies. Might be a subjective "i'm not on clinchers anymore" illusion, but I think it's legitimate.

4) And hey, if I ever have a racing blowout, I'm not riding metal to the ground. And I probably will never have one, since tubies are slow leakers and will never release air all the way around the rim like a clincher.

In summary...
For training, there's no way I'd put up with tubular hassle.

For racing, I love the perks, and there's something about gluing tubulars that (in spite of the chore and monotony) brings me closer to the sport's heritage and reinforces commitment to it. Same with cross...if you spent the time gluing up your Grifo 34's and it's cold and rainy and wet and muddy, HTFU, this is what cycling is all about. Gluing is a part of that commitment in a funny way for me.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

...........


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

*ergott* and *DM.Aelis*, 

Thanks for the comments. 

For about 1,500 miles, I've been riding _Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX-II_ clinchers with Michelin latex tubes. If this approaches the "tubie experience", I can appreciate its benefits. Very smooth and fast-rolling, and I feel very confident in high speed dry cornering.

BUT, I have noticed that latex inner tubes deflate much faster than regular butyl tubes. Surprising at first, but has not been a safety issue (yet) ... in fact, it may even be better to get a quick indication of a flat.

Question for the RBR community --
Since tubulars usually have latex inner tubes, do tubulars also deflate extremely rapidly? 
or is it more like a clincher with regular butyl tubes?


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

In my years of riding tubulars, I did have several big bang blowouts. Mostly from nails. Still, the tire stayed on the rim and I still had rubber between me and the road, not a millimeter or two of aluminum.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

tom_h said:


> *ergott* and *DM.Aelis*,
> 
> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> ...


The best tubulars have latex tubes as well. They lose air at about the same rate so you must inflate them each day. That's one reason I have recently been using Conti Competitions. They have butyl tubes. Overall the Conti's are a solid performing race tire that is easy to deal with riding every day. On a before/after work commute the latex were losing a noticeable amount of air.

-Eric


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

PS the best clinchers with latex tubes do ride real nice. It's just that tubulars are nicer;-)

-Eric


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Latex tubes are porous and lose air faster than butyl.

The tubulars lose the air too. 

I haven't yet tried the tubulars on the road but for Cross my Challenge Fangos and Grifos are superb


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## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

tom_h said:


> *ergott* and *DM.Aelis*,
> 
> Question for the RBR community --
> Since tubulars usually have latex inner tubes, do tubulars also deflate extremely rapidly?
> or is it more like a clincher with regular butyl tubes?


My Challenge tubies all are racing quality and have the nicer latex inner tubes. You do pay a price, they do deflate rapidly, so yes, I pump em up every day I need to use em. Often it's a part of that "pre-race" prep to get to a perfect pressure so I just do it then anyways.

Guessing my road tires lose...I dunno, 25 psi a day? no clue really. just pump em every day i need to race.

another reason to use bombproof clincher tires for training

i just pinch my gatorskins with two fingers, call it good, and ride


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## KensBikes (Feb 6, 2005)

There are a lot of tubulars with butyl tubes, but generally at the middle and lower ranges. Conti Sprinters are butyl, at least the ones I've had. I'd be surprised if there isn't a better Vittoria with butyl, because Vittoria had a butyl/latex option on their flagship model of the old days, the CG/CX combo.

In the low end, Vittoria Rallye, Yellow Jersey Servizio Corse, and the Panasonics are all butyl, among a bunch of others.

I think the World Class Cycles folks can tell you if they're selling latex or butyl.

My experience, butyl tubulars can hold pressure to a usable level for weeks to months. Latex, not for more than a few days.


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## ghastrider (Feb 23, 2010)

tom_h said:


> *ergott* and *DM.Aelis*,
> 
> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> ...


Hey tom, i ride the Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX-II clinchers with Michelin latex tubes too. What psi do you usually pump them too? I heard that higher pressure on the tires would give a lower CRR, however i use them on AC420s which have a tire pressure limit of 120psi. so i dare not go above 125psi the most.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

ghastrider said:


> Hey tom, i ride the Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX-II clinchers with Michelin latex tubes too. What psi do you usually pump them too? I heard that higher pressure on the tires would give a lower CRR, however i use them on AC420s which have a tire pressure limit of 120psi. so i dare not go above 125psi the most.


I've been typically pumping the 23mm size to 105 front, 110-112 rear. I weigh 165-167 lbs.

Higher tire pressure on a smooth surface, like a wood velodrome, gives marginally decreasing Crr. 
The last table on last page of tire Crr data, at http://biketechreview.com/tires/rolling-resistance/475-roller-data , provides some data on tire pressure effects.


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

To answer the OP's question...it just took one ride. Vittoria Corsas on a set of Mavic Heliums years ago. I was hooked instantly.I only use them for racing though. I now have a nice collection of tubulars waiting to be glued in an upstairs closet. Right now my collection is up to 35, and that's just the unglued ones. The collection includes:

Schwalbe Ultremos
Veloflex Carbons labeled as Ultremos
23-24mm wide Challenges labeled as Ultremos
Corsa Evo CX 21mm
Corsa Evo CX 23 mm
Corsa Evo CX labeled as Michelin Pro Race
Torelli Lugano (made by Challenge)
Challenge Criterium
Challenge Forte
Conti GP4000
Conti Competition
Hutchinson Carbon Comp
Bontrager Race XXX Lite (made by Vittoria)
Bontrager Race X lite Pro (ditto)
Panaracer Extreme Jet
No longer in the collection since they were sold (Vred Fortezzas Tricomp made by Vittoria, and Gommitalia Platinums)


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

All my Crits and road races are done on tubies. All my training is done on cheap clinchers.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> All my Crits and road races are done on tubies. All my training is done on cheap clinchers.


Does training include simulated Crit "practice" for yourself, like the typical Tuesday evening stuff?

Wouldn't you want to do some training with the same equipment you race on, given that some previous posters attribute different handling & cornering characterstics to a tubular?


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## Number9 (Nov 28, 2004)

Mapei said:


> And for those of you who never got to ride a silk sewup, well, it's too bad they essentially don't exist anymore. They rode significantly more quietly and softly than other tires. They seemed to hug the road, giving you a marvelous, intuitive sense of grip. It's probably the only old school component that this old but thoroughly new school guy would like to see resurrected. At a reasonable price, of course.


You're in luck: http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...rium-seta-extra-tubular-tire-5326.2127.0.html

I bought several of the pista seta extra version from another vendor that had them on clearance and they are absolutely fabulous on the velodrome. Back to the future...


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2010)

Mapei said:


> I probably don't have the answer you seek, as when I started riding racing bicycles tubulars were essentially the only way you could go. In 1972, the second from the bottom of the line Gitane (which I think was $150) had no-name tubing, a steel-cottered crank and tubular tires! We called them sewups, then. A cotton-carcassed sewup was seven bucks. A silk-carcassed sewup was ten bucks.
> 
> And for those of you who never got to ride a silk sewup, well, it's too bad they essentially don't exist anymore. They rode significantly more quietly and softly than other tires. They seemed to hug the road, giving you a marvelous, intuitive sense of grip. It's probably the only old school component that this old but thoroughly new school guy would like to see resurrected. At a reasonable price, of course.



http://worldclasscycles.com/dugast_strada_silk.htm

http://worldclasscycles.com/dugast_paris roubaix silk.htm

http://worldclasscycles.com/dugast speed silk.htm

http://fmbtires.com/fmb_strada.htm

http://fmbtires.com/fmb_competition_cx.htm

http://fmbtires.com/fmb_racing_pro.htm

Lots of choices.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Number9 said:


> You're in luck: http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...rium-seta-extra-tubular-tire-5326.2127.0.html
> 
> I bought several of the pista seta extra version from another vendor that had them on clearance and they are absolutely fabulous on the velodrome. Back to the future...


Alright. The Clement Criterium Seta was pretty much my favorite tire of all-time. So, if what Challenge says is true and they now produce essentially the same tire, then that's great news. However, not $150 each great. That's a stratospheric price.:cryin:


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

Tom Kellogg's thoughts ......

Personal, but interesting.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...ho-went-back-to-clinchers&p=184612#post184612

____________

<<
Re: Tubulars for everyday riding - who went back to clinchers?
I tried the switch to training clinchers a few years back and hated them so much that I sold them after about three months. My training wheels are DA hubs, Nemesis rims, DT 14 butted spokes. Currently the front tire is a CG Pave and the rear is a CX EVO320 (long story) I will never try clinchers again. I typically get about four thousand miles out of a front tire and about two thousand to twenty five hundred out of a rear. As often as not, I will wear through to the casing before flatting. 

Are they expensive? Yup. You get what you pay for. They are that much better. Helps?

Ps. these wheels have about 18,000 miles on them and I did have to adjust one spoke nipple a quarter turn about a year ago. Bummer. Too bad tubular wheels don't hold up.
>>


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

fast ferd said:


> Alright. The Clement Criterium Seta was pretty much my favorite tire of all-time. So, if what Challenge says is true and they now produce essentially the same tire, then that's great news. However, not $150 each great. That's a stratospheric price.:cryin:


Yeah, too expensive...Excel did have them for less than half that when they were clearing them out (and a LOT of Challenge inventory) back in November.


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## Number9 (Nov 28, 2004)

fast ferd said:


> Alright. The Clement Criterium Seta was pretty much my favorite tire of all-time. So, if what Challenge says is true and they now produce essentially the same tire, then that's great news. However, not $150 each great. That's a stratospheric price.:cryin:


While it may seem expensive, relatively speaking it's not. In the good old days silk tires commanded on the order of a 43% premium vis-a-vis comparable cotton tires. Current cotton vittoria corsa evo cx list for over $100 so the relative pricing isn't that different. Inflation sucks but the relative pricing is pretty much the same as way back when...


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Windermere said:


> http://worldclasscycles.com/dugast_strada_silk.htm
> 
> http://worldclasscycles.com/dugast_paris roubaix silk.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks guys for the links. If I were still as fanatical a gearhead as I was thirty+ years ago, maybe I'd swing for a few. Those Paris-Roubaix silks seem nice. And only about 200 bucks each. I remember paying sixteen bucks for them, once upon a time. Those, along with the even wider Campionato del Mondos, were the longest lasting tires tires I ever used. Two years? Three years without a flat? I can't quite remember. The sweetest riding ones, though, were the Criterium Setas now at the competitive cyclist website, but they never lasted long enough for me.


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

Number9 said:


> While it may seem expensive, relatively speaking it's not. In the good old days silk tires commanded on the order of a 43% premium vis-a-vis comparable cotton tires. Current cotton vittoria corsa evo cx list for over $100 so the relative pricing isn't that different. Inflation sucks but the relative pricing is pretty much the same as way back when...


Yes, inflation does matter, but for a lot of cycling goods nowadays, the price increases have nothing to do with inflation and a lot to do with distribution channel markups, price setting and "what people will pay". There have been many threads here and in other forums about that. And even though you mention the Corsa Evos listing for $100, there are many places where you can get them for $60 or less. I know that the silks are great tires, but $150 is a lot to pay for a bike tire these days, especially in this economy.

but let's not go off topic...


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Does training include simulated Crit "practice" for yourself, like the typical Tuesday evening stuff?

Nope. Been doing this long enough that I don't need to practice with race wheels.

When I'm training, I never take a corner at "full speed". There could be sand, gravel, or a truck, in a bad position.


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## jrob1775 (Jan 21, 2010)

Scott in MD said:


> It seems like clinchers are just so much easier .... carry a tube rather than a tire. CHeaper. But I don't really know anyone riding tubulars ... so I wonder. How good are they? How different are they? Is repairing a flat a big deal? Any thoughts welcome....


I think the tubular vs clincher debate depends on 3 questions.

1) What are you using them for?

2)How much hassle do you want to deal with?

3)How much money are you willing to invest?

I work at a shop, so I can get pretty good discounts straight from the manufacturer. Since I had never tried tubulars before, I decided to buy some to see what they were all about in order to better inform customers and for my own knowledge. 

I ended up with Zipp 303s with Zipp tangente tires. The first thing I noticed is how much lighter they are. On a carbon wheel like Zipps they have no aluminum braking surface so they are considerably lighter (about one third the less than the clincher version). The wheels felt really easy to spin up and were noticibly quicker. 

I used sealent inside my tires and carried a can of Vitorria sealent on rides in case of a flat. The idea is that you take off the valve core, spray the sealent inside, air it back up and hope that it holds. It's kind of like fix a flat on a car. If your tires are glued properly then they are a ***** to get off. Some will carry a extra tire and use tape, but I would never trust tape in a high speed corner. You could possibly roll a tire off. 

Ride quality of the tubular tire is better due to the higher thread count in the tire which makes them conform to the road better. Most tubulars run around 300 TPI where as the average clincher is 120 TPI. There are tires on the market called "open clinchers". They are essentially a tubular tire casing with a clincher bead. These clincher tires will give you the same ride quality as a tubular without the hassle of gluing.

If we are talking carbon wheels, then braking is an issue. I think you get about half of the braking power on a carbon surface as you do on an aluminum one. This issue is not a big deal except in a panic stop or in the rain. It can be a safety issue in those cases. You also have to run special pads, so if you are changing between carbon and aluminum training wheels, you will also have to switch your brake pads. Life span of the Zipp tires turned out to be about 1500 miles and then I had to deal with the cost and time of gluing another tubular.

In my opinion, it was not worth the hassle. Yes they were lighter and rode better, but in the end were not worth the hassle. I sold the wheels on E-Bay and bought some carbon clinchers and I am using open tubular ties. That way I get the benefits of the more supple casing without all the drawbacks of a tubular wheel. My new wheels are about 400 grams more, but the weight savings is not worth the inconvinence. I guess it goes back to the 3 questions and you can decide if the added cost and hassle is worth it.


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## DM.Aelis (Jun 19, 2007)

RC28 said:


> To answer the OP's question...it just took one ride. Vittoria Corsas on a set of Mavic Heliums years ago. I was hooked instantly.I only use them for racing though. I now have a nice collection of tubulars waiting to be glued in an upstairs closet. Right now my collection is up to 35, and that's just the unglued ones. The collection includes:
> 
> Schwalbe Ultremos
> Veloflex Carbons labeled as Ultremos
> ...


I would love to see your cyclocross quiver! :thumbsup: 

Now that's a sport for a tire aficionado.


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

DM.Aelis said:


> I would love to see your cyclocross quiver! :thumbsup:
> 
> Now that's a sport for a tire aficionado.




Sadly, there is absolutely no cyclocross racing here (I don't think cross bikes are even sold here). It's all either MTB or road. You have to understand that living here the coldest it gets is high 60s , low 70s during the early mornings in January or February (and locals consider that cold!). Most of the time it's in the 80s and 90s.


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## RC28 (May 9, 2002)

jrob1775 said:


> *Ride quality of the tubular tire is better due to the higher thread count in the tire which makes them conform to the road better. Most tubulars run around 300 TPI where as the average clincher is 120 TPI. There are tires on the market called "open clinchers". They are essentially a tubular tire casing with a clincher bead. These clincher tires will give you the same ride quality as a tubular without the hassle of gluing.*


Ride quality comes from other places. First, clinchers sit on a rim only with their beads whereas tubulars sit along the whole base tape. Also, you can run tubulars at lower pressures than a comparable clincher without fear of pinch flatting which also benefits ride quality. I think you refer to open tubulars and not open clinchers since all clinchers , by definition, are open.  If you couple a good open tubular with a latex inner tube, then the ride does feel like that of tubulars but you do not get the benefits in pinch flat resistance or safety when having a flat.



jrob1775 said:


> If we are talking carbon wheels, then braking is an issue. *I think you get about half of the braking power on a carbon surface as you do on an aluminum one*. This issue is not a big deal except in a panic stop or in the rain. It can be a safety issue in those cases. *You also have to run special pads, so if you are changing between carbon and aluminum training wheels, you will also have to switch your brake pads.* Life span of the Zipp tires turned out to *be about 1500 miles and then I had to deal with the cost and time of gluing another tubular*.


This used to be an issue before, with uneven and untextured braking surfaces. However, recent advances in this area, coupled with newer pads such as the excellent SwissStop Flash Yellow and the newer Zipp pads, greatly increase the braking power in carbon wheels. Granted, it's still not up to aluminum standards, but it is way more than half.
Also, changing all 4 pads in a Shimano or Sram brakeset takes all of 5 minutes. Not a big deal, really.
That life span of the Tangentes is on par with the rest of Vittorias such as the Corsa Evo CXs . The Tangentes are made by Vittoria on a similar casing as the Evos AND you can get the Evos for a lot less than the Tangentes therefore minimizing the cost impact. Gluing a new tire on a previously used rim is also much easier than on a brand new one since there's already a bed of glue on the rim. Put glue on new tire, put new coat or two on the rim, mount and go!


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