# Touring wheels



## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

To the mods (MB1), this might not be the right forum, but questions of this type have previously received rather low responses in Wheels and Rims. Please give this question a chance in Commuting & Touring. Thanks.

So, I'm upgrading the wheels on my touring bicycle. The plan is to buy a BOB trailer with about 35 kg and tour with that instead of panniers on my rear rack, as I have done in the past. If I do have a pannier, it'll be something like a single Ortleib with some light stuff, maybe about 5 kg. I weigh only 65 kg (143#), so my weight should not be a problem. My question is should I go for something heavy duty like a Mavic A719 or something light like a Mavic CXP 33 / Velocity Dyad? What about Velocity Aeroheads? Any others? Those of you who ride with a trailer, chime in.
Thanks.
Cheers, Wayne


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

wayneanneli said:


> To the mods (MB1), this might not be the right forum, but questions of this type have previously received rather low responses in Wheels and Rims. Please give this question a chance in Commuting & Touring. Thanks.
> 
> So, I'm upgrading the wheels on my touring bicycle. The plan is to buy a BOB trailer with about 35 kg and tour with that instead of panniers on my rear rack, as I have done in the past. If I do have a pannier, it'll be something like a single Ortleib with some light stuff, maybe about 5 kg. I weigh only 65 kg (143#), so my weight should not be a problem. My question is should I go for something heavy duty like a Mavic A719 or something light like a Mavic CXP 33 / Velocity Dyad? What about Velocity Aeroheads? Any others? Those of you who ride with a trailer, chime in.
> Thanks.
> Cheers, Wayne



I am no mechanical engineer, but it seems like the bob trailer takes away the vertical loading that you would get with loaded panniers. Based on that, it seems that the only additional stress would be the torque applied to the rear wheel to accelerate and pull the weight of the trailer. If it was me and only weighed 143#, I would go with something with 36 spokes and a decent tire. For the sake of comfort, something like a Pasela or Rolly Poly tire. As far as rims, the ones you mentioned are good choices. DT swiss makes some decent treking rims as well. My biggest concern would be traction and handling due the weight behind me. That mostly falls into the realm of brakes, frame geometry, and tires. 

You are always welcome here. MB1 doesn't bite.


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## Bikehigh (Aug 2, 2004)

bigbill said:


> I am no mechanical engineer, but it seems like the bob trailer takes away the vertical loading that you would get with loaded panniers.


The BOB trailer by no means removes the vertical loading of loaded panniers. With the BOB, the load is distributed pretty much equally between the trailer's own wheel and the bike's rear wheel. Not trying to push the Burley trailers, but if unloading the rear wheel with a trailer is the object, then a Burly Flatbed and even the Burley Nomad will significantly reduce tongue weight when compared to the BOB.

I've got nothing regarding the wheels, because I tip the scales at 225lbs.


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## Sledgehammer03 (Mar 7, 2006)

I woululdn't woory about your rear wheel. Even if you have the trailer load evenly distributed, 50% on it's wheel, 50% on the bike's, your vertical loads will be as follows.

1/2 of your and the bike's weight on hte front wheel, 1/2 of your weight plus the loaded trailer weight on the rear bike wheel. 1/2 of the loaded trailer weight on the trailer wheel.

Ball park, 72 lb on the front wheel, 107 lb on the read wheel, and 35 on the trailer.

I was 260 a year ago, now 230. that is 115 on ech wheel. I have a 2k miles on the bike shop Mavic OPen Pros (32 spoke) and they are still true.

Sledge


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## The Walrus (Apr 2, 2000)

The wheels on my proper touring bike are 36h Araya rims on STX hubs--not glamorous or high-zoot, but I've lost track of how many thousands of miles I racked up on them without incident. Never pulled the BoB with this bike; strictly panniers with maybe 50 lbs distributed 60/40 front/rear. 

I did pull the trailer with a couple of Bianchi Axis 'crossers (obviously not both at the same time), using the stock 32h Mavic MA3/105 hub wheels, and again had no incidents. 

I think any decent 32h/36h wheelset will be fine for you.


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

Thanks for your responses. It seems that a 32/36 should do fine. Any idea how a Burley attaches? I checked their website, but can't find any information regarding the attachment system. My main reason for getting a BOB is because of availiability (it's easy to buy at MEC in Canada, when I go back) and the good things I've read about them. 
Hey Bill, when are you going to Italy?
Cheers, Wayne

edit: Sorry, I have just found the service manual from Burley in a PDF. It seems similar to BOB, but doesn't attach through the skewer. Rather the rear dropout.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Watch out for that big mean moderator!*

How dare you ask a touring question in the touring fourm. I've a mind to move this whole thread to the PG forum!?!    

Now, back to reality.....IMHO the performance part of a loaded touring rig is to have a bike that will hold up. With wheels the way to go is good and sturdy so don't mess with the spoke count or tire width. 36 spokes and a tire that is at least 28mm wide on the front and at least 32mm on the back. That way you just won't have anything to worry about.

I've done both the Burley and the BOB. I do like the Burleys a lot but I'm sticking with the BOB since I find the single wheel design to be superior while on the road although it isn't as nice as a 2 wheel design when you are parking or stopping a lot.

BTW the Burley attaches with a wedge sort of deal to the left chainstay and seatstay just above the dropout. It is a really nice attachment; about the best I have seen other than the BOB attachment which is also really good.


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## Andy M-S (Feb 3, 2004)

One more thing to think about:

Braking surfaces. If you're touring with a load and not using disk brakes, your rims are going to need to be nice and strong to take braking forces and dissipate heat. CXP33 rims are fine for dissipation, as they've got the rest of the rim behind them, but the braking surfaces could be larger.


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

Andy M-S said:


> One more thing to think about:
> 
> Braking surfaces. If you're touring with a load and not using disk brakes, your rims are going to need to be nice and strong to take braking forces and dissipate heat. CXP33 rims are fine for dissipation, as they've got the rest of the rim behind them, but the braking surfaces could be larger.


Hi Andy,
What do you mean by "they've got the rest of the rim behind them"? I have old style Shimano cantis that I'm thinking of upgrading, possibly to something like these.
Wayne


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

MB1 said:


> the BOB since I find the single wheel design to be superior while on the road although it isn't as nice as a 2 wheel design when you are parking or stopping a lot.


Thanks MB. Do you mean that the BOB tracks better? Smoother roll?


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

wayneanneli said:


> Thanks MB. Do you mean that the BOB tracks better? Smoother roll?


The BOB is skinnier than your handlebars and it tracks really well (the Burley also tracks well) so there is never an issue about getting through narrow spots or having the trailer wheel dropping into a hole that your bike wheels just missed. 

With a 2 wheel trailer the wheels do not follow the same track as the bicycle wheels and they stick out wider than the bicycles handlebar so you can hit potholes with the trailer that the bicycle missed and you have to be extra cautious about riding through narrow spaces (such as the entrances to MUTs). 2 wheel trailers also are going to have more wind and rolling resistance but this is no big deal unless you are riding in really strong side or head winds.

Honestly I think that you would be really happy with either a BOB or Burley trailer as they are both top notch units and both are very well made. IMHO the BOB is better on the open road but good enough in town and the Burley is better in town and good enough on the open road.

MB1
Decisive and oh so helpful.


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## Sledgehammer03 (Mar 7, 2006)

I have a Burley kiddie trailer, and had to convert the hitch to the skewer style. It cost an additional $40.00. Available wherever the traliers are sold, usually special order.

I had to get it because of disc brakes. makes attaching the trailer a snap.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

I believe Andy is saying that the braking surface of the csp33s are not just the part of the rim that holds the bead on the tire. It has air behind it that is part of the rim structure. If you heat the brake surface up, it doesn't directly heat up the tire/tube.

I am with others on this one. Buy a setup like one that us big guys use. First I don't think you can go wrong with 36 spoked cxp33 or velocity aeroheads. Use brass nipples and double butted spokes with a 3x pattern and you can't go wrong. Also, use a big tire like the pro commuters stated earlier. Keep the pressure at 80 to 90 on a big tire and you save your wheel and your back a lot of punishment. I have 32s on my Soma Smoothie ES, Panaracer Urban Max and leave them at 85 to 90 psi. It saves the worry of pinch flatting and provides a nice smooth ride.


Bigbill's tire suggestion is right on. Paselas are made by Panaracer and are nice tires for cheap.


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

Sledgehammer03 said:


> I have a Burley kiddie trailer, and had to convert the hitch to the skewer style. It cost an additional $40.00. Available wherever the traliers are sold, usually special order.
> 
> I had to get it because of disc brakes. makes attaching the trailer a snap.


I wish we could convert our kid trailer. The set up is a such a pain, where you screw the trailer on to the left dropout. It just never stays still and I always have to look down to make sure that it's in place.


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## Andy M-S (Feb 3, 2004)

Close...

What I mean is that the CXP33 is a BIG rim--there's a lot of alloy there to soak up and dissipate heat. Unfortunately, the braking surface itself is comparatively narrow. A less "aero" rim with a little extra depth would give you a wider braking surface...


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

I like the Salsa Delgado rims I have. They accept a 28mm and larger tire quite nicely, and have held up well for the use I have given them. I think they are cyclocross rims.


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

Andy M-S said:


> Close...
> 
> What I mean is that the CXP33 is a BIG rim--there's a lot of alloy there to soak up and dissipate heat. Unfortunately, the braking surface itself is comparatively narrow. A less "aero" rim with a little extra depth would give you a wider braking surface...


Andy,
Thanks for the explanation, now I understand what you mean. If not the CXPs due to their small braking surface, which would you suggest? Velocity Aerohead? Dyad?


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

Hey Bigrider,
Thanks. I have to ask, though, how big are you? I'm 1.75 m (5'9") and 65 kg (143). Which rims do you ride?
Wayne


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## HeronTodd (Feb 7, 2004)

For touring use, weight of the carried load is not the only reason to consider a conservatively-built pair of wheels. You also want to consider the "cost" of a wheel failure and how much risk you want to take. There is a difference in having a wheel fail on a ride around town and having one fail in the middle of a long, self-supported tour. 

Lots of coast-to-coast riders used to stop by my shop every summer. The most common mechanical failure that I saw was a wheel failure, and that applied whether the rider used panniers or a trailer.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Bad John said:


> I like the Salsa Delgado rims I have. They accept a 28mm and larger tire quite nicely, and have held up well for the use I have given them. I think they are cyclocross rims.



Just an update, my third Salsa rim now has small cracks. The two common denominators are the rim and the LBS that built the wheel. The cracks are only on the drive side. The spoke tension has been checked numerous times with a park tension tool. I check the cracks weekly for propagation but they don't seem to be growing. The small crack may have relieved the tension. I still ride them everyday. The front rim has around 16K on it with no problems other than getting thin on the brake track. I use the front brakes way more than the back.


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

Thanks Bill for the update. But with 16k on the rim, I would imagine that you have gotten your money's worth from them. How is the planning going on your move to Italy?


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

HeronTodd said:


> For touring use, weight of the carried load is not the only reason to consider a conservatively-built pair of wheels. You also want to consider the "cost" of a wheel failure and how much risk you want to take. There is a difference in having a wheel fail on a ride around town and having one fail in the middle of a long, self-supported tour.
> 
> Lots of coast-to-coast riders used to stop by my shop every summer. The most common mechanical failure that I saw was a wheel failure, and that applied whether the rider used panniers or a trailer.


Thanks Todd. I read in a recent post that you like Velocity Dyads and Sun CR18 rims. Any other suggestions? We may not be able to get them here in Sweden.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

wayneanneli said:


> Thanks Bill for the update. But with 16k on the rim, I would imagine that you have gotten your money's worth from them. How is the planning going on your move to Italy?


I will leave Hawaii during the first week of May to fly to Olbia. It should be interesting, the flight should go from Honolulu to Vancouver to London to Olbia. Alot of time on a plane. My current record is 32 hours when I flew from Norfolk, VA to Manama, Bahrain with five stops. I don't know my schedule when I get there, but I would like to participate in a EuroRBR gathering. The ship that I will serve on is leaving Italy this fall to transfer to Bremerton, WA for overhaul. We are purchasing a home in the area. We will live in the "Little Norway" of Poulsbo, Washington. The Swedes are outcasts. You know how those Norwegians can be.


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## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*I've had very good luck with Mavic box rims.*

They used to be silver MA-2's and dark brown MA-40's - don't know what they call them now. They have held up well, take a big tire, and don't feel terribly slow when I put on 25c's for brevet riding on a touring bike. I haven't noticed any difference in durablilty between a set with 32 spokes and a set with 36.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

bigbill said:


> Just an update, my third Salsa rim now has small cracks. The two common denominators are the rim and the LBS that built the wheel. The cracks are only on the drive side. The spoke tension has been checked numerous times with a park tension tool. I check the cracks weekly for propagation but they don't seem to be growing. The small crack may have relieved the tension. I still ride them everyday. The front rim has around 16K on it with no problems other than getting thin on the brake track. I use the front brakes way more than the back.



Thanks, that's good to know. I'll keep an eye on mine.


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## bigrider (Jun 27, 2002)

wayneanneli said:


> Hey Bigrider,
> Thanks. I have to ask, though, how big are you? I'm 1.75 m (5'9") and 65 kg (143). Which rims do you ride?
> Wayne



I am 6'2" and vary from 230 to 260lbs. I presently ride two different rims. CXP33s 36sp 3x double butted spokes with brass nipples and on my fixed gear rear wheel I ride a Velocity Aerohead 36sp 3x double butted spokes with brass nipples.

The moral of the story is when I ride my bike around I have more weight on my back wheel than your heaviest day of touring. Sad but true.


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## damon (Dec 24, 2001)

wayneanneli said:


> My question is should I go for something heavy duty like a Mavic A719 or something light like a Mavic CXP 33 / Velocity Dyad? What about Velocity Aeroheads? Any others? Those of you who ride with a trailer, chime in.


I'm not sure if you feel like you got an adequate response regarding wheels for trailer use, but in my experience (primarily alaskan back roads - lots of washboard and dirt), is that a BOB is harder on the rear triangle than the wheel. I was using a relatively light weight steel mountain bike with fairly light weight wheels and had more issues with the rear dropouts getting tweaked than my rear wheel getting out of true. Based on your list, i'd go with the lighter weight option.

Secondly, for your wheels, you should try to keep spoke length equal for all spokes (different crosses on the back, etc.), and also think about getting some rims with very common ERDs. You want to make replacing bits super easy while on the road. 

Back to trailers, I have a burley kid trailer and a bob stuff trailer, and like the way the bob rides a fair bit better. The burley simply feels more like you have a trailer back there (the two wheels bouncing over differeng things than the bike is), while the bob tracks really nicely and handles rough roads very well. You definitely feel the weight of both, though.

-Damon


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

bigbill said:


> Just an update, my third Salsa rim now has small cracks. The two common denominators are the rim and the LBS that built the wheel. The cracks are only on the drive side. The spoke tension has been checked numerous times with a park tension tool. I check the cracks weekly for propagation but they don't seem to be growing. The small crack may have relieved the tension. I still ride them everyday. The front rim has around 16K on it with no problems other than getting thin on the brake track. I use the front brakes way more than the back.



My Salsa rims have cracked, too. Only mine went on both sides, not just the drive side. Some of the cracks extend to the braking surface. I didn't notice in time I guess. At least I caught it before they completely broke. I am having them replaced with Velocity rims. Salsa won't warranty them, claiming abuse.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Bad John said:


> My Salsa rims have cracked, too. Only mine went on both sides, not just the drive side. Some of the cracks extend to the braking surface. I didn't notice in time I guess. At least I caught it before they completely broke. I am having them replaced with Velocity rims. Salsa won't warranty them, claiming abuse.



I continued to ride my rear wheel with the cracks until two weeks ago. I was wiping the rims with a damp rag and felt a bulge next to a spoke hole. That did it for me. I was hoping to use them until the end of next week, but no more. I will cut the rim out today and save the hub for a build later. At this point I have to say that it is the rim that is at fault. All three of my back wheels were built by the same LBS but by different people. The wheel never went out of true or had any uneven tension, it just cracked. Salsa did warranty the first two rims, but I am done with them. My new wheelset is from Joe Young in Texas. Velocity rims, DT supercomp X36, and Phil Wood touring hubs. They weigh a ton, but with PW hubs my son will be riding them with their tenth set of rims in the year 2020. 

I should fire off a nasty email to Salsa.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

bigbill said:


> I continued to ride my rear wheel with the cracks until two weeks ago. I was wiping the rims with a damp rag and felt a bulge next to a spoke hole. That did it for me. I was hoping to use them until the end of next week, but no more. I will cut the rim out today and save the hub for a build later. At this point I have to say that it is the rim that is at fault. All three of my back wheels were built by the same LBS but by different people. The wheel never went out of true or had any uneven tension, it just cracked. Salsa did warranty the first two rims, but I am done with them. My new wheelset is from Joe Young in Texas. Velocity rims, DT supercomp X36, and Phil Wood touring hubs. They weigh a ton, but with PW hubs my son will be riding them with their tenth set of rims in the year 2020.
> 
> I should fire off a nasty email to Salsa.


I don't think a nasty email will help. The rep told me that for me to be riding their rims constitutes abuse, because of my size. The funny thing is, they sell these rims as cyclocross/29er wheels. Commuting on them, and road riding with 28c tires shouldn't even compare to that. I won't consider replacing mine with Salsa rims either. I have a set of Velocity rims that have seen much more abuse than the Salsa's, and way more miles, and I have had no problems with them. My wheels were build by a big guy who thinks building bike wheels is a religion. If it is, he is the pope. The build wasn't the problem. The rim material and/or design is.


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## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

wayneanneli said:


> Andy,
> Thanks for the explanation, now I understand what you mean. If not the CXPs due to their small braking surface, which would you suggest? Velocity Aerohead? Dyad?


I have the Velocity Aeroheads on my Roubaix. They are wonderful roadie rims, but they wouldn't be my 1st choice at all as a touring wheel. They're strong for what they are, but just too light and skinny for touring. I've got Velocity Synnergy rims on my Bleriot; now _those_ I wouldn't hesitate to take across a continent, heavily loaded- 650Bness not withstanding. Strong as hell...more braking surface, wider, etc...I'm sure they must have a 700C model. The Dyads would probably be even better. I am just very impressed with Velocity rims.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Bad John said:


> I don't think a nasty email will help. The rep told me that for me to be riding their rims constitutes abuse, because of my size. The funny thing is, they sell these rims as cyclocross/29er wheels. Commuting on them, and road riding with 28c tires shouldn't even compare to that. I won't consider replacing mine with Salsa rims either. I have a set of Velocity rims that have seen much more abuse than the Salsa's, and way more miles, and I have had no problems with them. My wheels were build by a big guy who thinks building bike wheels is a religion. If it is, he is the pope. The build wasn't the problem. The rim material and/or design is.



I fired one off anyway. It wasn't a flame-fest, I just laid out the background and facts. They are frickin cross rims, I had a CPX33 wheelset that lasted seven years and many tens of thousands of miles before the HUB cracked. I am impressed with the velocity rims, good call on that one. For the last two weeks I have been commuting on my Specialized Roval Classique Pave wheelset. Twenty spokes in the front, twenty four in the rear with big flange hubs. I would recommend them to any big rider.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

I am replacing the DelGado's with Dyads. My Fusions have been great, but I want something that handles the big tires better. I ran the 28's on the Fusion rims, and I thought I could feel some tire roll on corners. The Dyads are just as wide as the DelGado's, so I think they will work well.

By the way Bill, let me know if you hear back from Salsa, if you don't mind. I am curious about what they have to say.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Bad John said:


> I am replacing the DelGado's with Dyads. My Fusions have been great, but I want something that handles the big tires better. I ran the 28's on the Fusion rims, and I thought I could feel some tire roll on corners. The Dyads are just as wide as the DelGado's, so I think they will work well.
> 
> By the way Bill, let me know if you hear back from Salsa, if you don't mind. I am curious about what they have to say.



Salsa has responded. They want to know my weight, wheel build, riding weather, mileage, etc. I see where it is heading. I don't want to get into a whizzing contest like I did with Soma, I don't want a new rim, I just want them to know that their rims have a problem. I am very anal-retentive about maintaining my commuter. The bike gets me to work and being on time every day is important to me. The car is dirty, the bike is clean.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Bad John said:


> I am replacing the DelGado's with Dyads. My Fusions have been great, but I want something that handles the big tires better. I ran the 28's on the Fusion rims, and I thought I could feel some tire roll on corners. The Dyads are just as wide as the DelGado's, so I think they will work well.
> 
> By the way Bill, let me know if you hear back from Salsa, if you don't mind. I am curious about what they have to say.



Pepperman responded from Salsa. Apparently they will take care of the problem I am having with my rim. I don't want another rim. The ultegra hub has been relaced three times, I don't really want to lace another rim on that hub. I got 20K or so out of it, time to move on.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Go for the Dyads*



wayneanneli said:


> Thanks Todd. I read in a recent post that you like Velocity Dyads and Sun CR18 rims. Any other suggestions? We may not be able to get them here in Sweden.


It may have been more attributable to the build (machine built), but I had a set of CR18's that tweaked so bad from hitting a buldge in the asphalt due to a protruding root that they couldn't be trued again.

I currently have 36h Dyads with 700x32's that have worked well. I struggled with getting the tension consistent in the original build, but they've been a bomber set of wheels just the same.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

bigbill said:


> Pepperman responded from Salsa. Apparently they will take care of the problem I am having with my rim. I don't want another rim. The ultegra hub has been relaced three times, I don't really want to lace another rim on that hub. I got 20K or so out of it, time to move on.


That's about the point I'm at. I don't care if they will replace the rim for free, and pay for the build. I want something else.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Big Bad John said:


> That's about the point I'm at. I don't care if they will replace the rim for free, and pay for the build. I want something else.



Salsa has offered to give me another rim and pay the shop for their labor. The new rim would be a 36 hole, so I would need another hub. I have to think about it. New wheel for the cost of a hub. Been looking at hubs, probably go with a 105 or Veloce if I do it.


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## comuter (Apr 6, 2007)

*my experience*

For what good it is, I've been riding my rigid 29er on a set of Mavic T520's laced to a set of XT disc hubs. I consider these to be one heck of a bomber set of wheels. I also have been riding a set of Velocity Dyads on my other 29er but it is a squishy hard tail so I doubt they take quite as much abuse. Either way, I have yet to need to true either rim after a year. 

Just my feelings on the matter,


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