# Help determining frame



## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

Hey all.

So after the events of this morning, I've decided to figure out who made the frame I repainted Molteni orange, and get proper decals for it.

I have been doing research, and apart from it being made in Italy of Columbus SL tubing, I don't know much more in regard to the manufacturer. There is a four diget serial number stamped in the bottom bracket of only numbers. 

The only distiguishing features are that the lugs have heart cut outs throught the frame.

*The first series of pictures, in orange are of my bike:*





































*These are also of my bike prior to painting:*


















*
The next one is borrowed from Classic Rendevous and is of an Ugo DeRosa:*










*The last series, also borrowed from Classic Rendevous is of two Gino Milani bicycles, who built for Colner (Colnago), Chiorda, Moser and others: *














































The Milani used a four diget serial number system, but Mr. Milani passed away in 1990 so it is hard to get in touch with him. 

Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks.

P.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

What maufacturer used hearts on the fork crown? I think that is a big clue.

Pete, what about a pic of the underside of the BB shell?

[edit: my bad on the fork crown. I must have been confused looking at the pics]


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## josephr (Jun 17, 2010)

if you don't find a SN on the bottom of of the BB, check the lower backside of the seatpost. my guess is high end Fuji....

PS-Don't ever say a Fuji is mid-range unless you want to get flamed.


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

It's not a De Rosa, that much I know, nor is it a Colnago .
Is the BB Italian thread?


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## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

My vote is a Moser..Francesco Moser, Lugwork | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

I am pretty sure it isn't a Fuji because there was the remnants of a made in italy decal.


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

yes, BB is Italian Thread, I'll take a picture of the BB cup tonight. 

are you sure it isn't a Colnago..hahahhahah =)


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

That Moser lug work looks interestingly similar. Classic Rendevous site said that the first Mosers were built by Milani, the milani lugwork is near similar to mine as well. Milani was a contract builder...

I may never know other than it is for sure not a colnago.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Why not keep the decals you have on it but also add a small decal next to it that says "replica". You can have it made cheaply through bikenames.com. That way, for those that are offended that it isn't real, you clearly are indicating that it is not. "Win-Win"!

Also, regardless of who made it........it looks to be a nice ride and maybe just as good a frame as what you are replicating. Nice lugs, nice tubing, etc..... Some shots of the bottom bracket and rear drop outs would also help.

Also, I doubt that it is a Moser. I don't think he ever used fluted seat stays. Also, he often put his logo on the seat stay/lug juncture, too.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Use this a headbadge on the orange frame...... Problem solved.....:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Use this a headbadge on the orange frame...... Problem solved.....:thumbsup::thumbsup:



Wow! That is awesome. Seriously, I would use that in a heartbeat. Now that would be an homage to Eddie and Freddie! :thumbsup:

Imagine the conversations that it would start.


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## abarth (Aug 12, 2008)

pete2528ca said:


> I am pretty sure it isn't a Fuji because there was the remnants of a made in italy decal.


Don't you know, every unlabeled high end bike is a Fuji. You should change the title to "Help determining a Fuji frame". ut:


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> Wow! That is awesome. Seriously, I would use that in a heartbeat. Now that would be an homage to Eddie and Freddie! :thumbsup:
> 
> Imagine the conversations that it would start.


I think we're having t-shirts made....I'll let you know.....


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

I totally love the Freddie Merckx headbadge! I'd use that too!

My wife's ringtone for me is "Bicycle Race" from Queen!


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

frpax said:


> I totally love the Freddie Merckx headbadge! I'd use that too!
> 
> My wife's ringtone for me is "Bicycle Race" from Queen!


You would have to be pretty secure with who you are to sport that. ...........not that there is anything wrong with that. :thumbsup:


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

Holy crap, please let me know if you are getting tee shirts. that is fan-fricken-tastic.


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

Dave, would you be pissed if I got that made as a decal?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

pete2528ca said:


> Dave, would you be pissed if I got that made as a decal?


Go for it.........


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Pete, do you have a photo of the fork crown before the repaint (or after for that matter) that you can post?


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## josephr (Jun 17, 2010)

abarth said:


> Don't you know, every unlabeled high end bike is a Fuji. You should change the title to "Help determining a Fuji frame". ut:


Exactly!!! gotta expand your knowledge base of 'old bike frames'...just cause you find an old steel bike with ornate lugwork doesn't mean you've struck Colnago gold for cryin' out loud. 

there were several companies that made lugs with heart shape cutouts and they sold them around the world. Unless ita "B" or a clover or clubs shape,there's a hundred different builders that it come from. Including Fuji!!!

Seriously though...the Moser is a good guess...as could be a Rossin....the tear-drop rear seat stays and the cube-shaped rear brake mount were familiar features to both of those shops...I've seen them on Tommasini's before, but with the Tommasini "T"" in the lugs. 

Again...check for a SN...send pics of the bottom of the BB....also the rear drop-outs without the wheel or RD mounted.


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## cusailor (Feb 14, 2009)

*Viner Special Pro?*

Hi guys,
I do more lurking than posting, but the lugwork looks very similar to the work on my Viner Special Pro. Mine does not have a heart cutout on the bottom bracket. Does the fork have any cutouts inside the blades? Mine has stars. Just a guess. It is Columbus SL and italian!

Someday I'll get around to posting the stable you guys have inspired.
Cheers,
Ian


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

Not an expert, but those appear to be standard Bocama lugs, used by dozens of builders. Could be anything (except Fuji, De Rosa, Cinelli or Colnago). It does appear to be well built, though.

Just ride it, and decal it with a variation of your name, or Freddie Mertz.

Here's the correct version, BTW:



















From here: Cycling Greats, volume 1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> I think we're having t-shirts made....I'll let you know.....


Remember me for a large if you do.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

zmudshark said:


> Not an expert, but those appear to be standard Bocama lugs, used by dozens of builders. Could be anything (except Fuji, De Rosa, Cinelli or Colnago). It does appear to be well built, though.
> 
> Just ride it, and decal it with a variation of your name, or Freddie Mertz.
> 
> ...


ahhh,.........all kidding aside,.........this bike IS a Colnago; a pre 1981 Colnago; for real.


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

HAHA fantastic.

I'll snap some pictures in the morning. Too burned out tonight.

Mine has stars on the inside of the fork crown.

P.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

pete2528ca said:


> HAHA fantastic.
> 
> I'll snap some pictures in the morning. Too burned out tonight.
> 
> ...


 No,no; The Freddie Mertz frame is actually a Colnago frame, pre 1981.
I'm not sure what your Orange frame is. You might want to check and see what
you can find on OLMO bikes; another great Italian frame frome back in the day.
Good luck & Merry Christmas to yeh.


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

Yes, The Freddie Mertz is a real Colnago.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

cusailor said:


> Hi guys,
> I do more lurking than posting, but the lugwork looks very similar to the work on my Viner Special Pro. Mine does not have a heart cutout on the bottom bracket. Does the fork have any cutouts inside the blades? Mine has stars. Just a guess. It is Columbus SL and italian!
> 
> Someday I'll get around to posting the stable you guys have inspired.
> ...


I think we've got a winner!


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

velodog said:


> Remember me for a large if you do.


XL for me please! Cotton right?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

TWB8s said:


> XL for me please! Cotton right?


yep.....we are working on it.....I'll let everyone know


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## lbbjkt (Dec 24, 2011)

Dave Hickey said:


> I think we're having t-shirts made....I'll let you know.....



Hi, sorry, I'm the original creator of that image and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using it  

I'm planning on making this and a few more designs into t-shirts, so if you would like to have one, you can order them as soon as they're ready.

Thanks!

Kevin Oei
Life Behind Bars 
lbbjkt(dot)tumblr(dot)com


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

lbbjkt said:


> Hi, sorry, I'm the original creator of that image and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using it
> 
> I'm planning on making this and a few more designs into t-shirts, so if you would like to have one, you can order them as soon as they're ready.
> 
> ...


No problem at all. We planned all along reaching out to you for permission


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

Medium for this kid please.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

Try this one as a match. It is a Losa. If so, you might have a ride that is actually more rare and collectable. Losa was the main man at Cinelli and also made frames under his own name. Look, it came in orange, too!


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

oops!


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## abstrait (Jun 27, 2007)

That's Ugo with Eddy, not Giovanni. Thought Viner was the best guess at this stage.


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## lbbjkt (Dec 24, 2011)

Dave Hickey said:


> No problem at all. We planned all along reaching out to you for permission


cool, thanks


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Someone on the Falcon thread posted this "Harpo Merckx"--one of the Falcon-made Eddie Merckx bikes from the early '70s.

Maybe not quite as cool as Freddie Merckx, but it made me laugh.

We need a picture of the "stars" on the fork tangs--I agree about the Bocama heart shaped cut outs being common to a lot of builders, but the one builder who used stars was Guercciotti....


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

*Here are the Stars and the Bottom Bracket Cup*

Allrighty, here are the stars on the fork crown as well as the bottom bracket cup and one of the rear drop out (Campagnolo).


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## pete2528ca (Jun 17, 2011)

That Vinir has the exact same rear brake bridge as mine.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> Wow! That is awesome. Seriously, I would use that in a heartbeat. Now that would be an homage to Eddie and Freddie! :thumbsup:
> 
> Imagine the conversations that it would start.




wc stripes should be changed to rainbow coalition stripes... now THAT would start conversations...


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