# Steroids or EPO



## jc1981 (Oct 4, 2005)

Hello everyone, I have one question or a favor to ask everyone. i am doing a research paper at school on Steroids and would like to know if anyone could recommend me some good articles or books that talks about steroids or EPO in the cycling world. 
Thanks in advanced for your help.
John C


----------



## geneseo (Nov 2, 2005)

*don't know exactly what type of article you're looking for*



jc1981 said:


> Hello everyone, I have one question or a favor to ask everyone. i am doing a research paper at school on Steroids and would like to know if anyone could recommend me some good articles or books that talks about steroids or EPO in the cycling world.
> Thanks in advanced for your help.
> John C



but Outside Magazine published an article where a guy took EPO, Steroids, and HGH and wrote about how they affected his cycling:

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html


----------



## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I would be embarassed to use that Outside article as the basis for any paper since it was totally anecdotal and largely placebo effect based on what was written.

Breaking the Chain by Willy Voet, The Crooked Path to Victory by Les Woodland, A Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage are all books that cover a variety of doping in cycling. Peter Winnen wrote a book, can't remember the title since it's not in english, that would be a good source as well. Winnen's point about EPO was that it totally changed the landscape of drugs in cycling because it was the first (and only if you include derivatives like Aranesp) drug that actually made a real difference in performance and outcomes.

The UCI website uci.ch also has a list of all drug suspensions and the drug involved somewhere on it, I haven't looked for it lately.

Unfortunately there isn't much published on EPO and other drug usage and practice in cycling other than accusations and rumors because nobody wants to talk about it. In actual use in pro racing EPO doesn't produce anything near the 8-10% gain that is typically quoted from lab results. But since there is typically only 3% between the first and last finisher in the Tour de France it doesn't take much to be effective.


----------



## Flaming OTB (Oct 28, 2005)

*Ergogenics*

The Sandro Donati website has some great info on the history of doping in sport. Some of the site is in German but most on the main page is in Engish.

http://www.ergogenics.org/donati.html


----------



## rrabbitt (Oct 4, 2005)

*great*



geneseo said:


> but Outside Magazine published an article where a guy took EPO, Steroids, and HGH and wrote about how they affected his cycling:
> 
> http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html



Great read, very entertaining and interesting article.
Thanks very much


----------



## rrabbitt (Oct 4, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> it was totally anecdotal and largely placebo effect based on what was written.


What do you mean "it was largely placebo effect"?
The guy took HGH, Deca, EPO etc... where's the placebo effect?


----------



## Tahoma (Feb 4, 2005)

*Good read*

Try reading Breaking the Chain Drugs and Cycling: The True Story by Willy Voet...very interesting.


----------



## netso (Feb 27, 2004)

*Book*



jc1981 said:


> Hello everyone, I have one question or a favor to ask everyone. i am doing a research paper at school on Steroids and would like to know if anyone could recommend me some good articles or books that talks about steroids or EPO in the cycling world.
> Thanks in advanced for your help.
> John C


I published a book with Ken Passariello called "Steroids". You may find this book in a library since it is now out of print. It definitely is not pro steroid, but informative. It is a little technical if you have no Science background. You can also reach Dr. Stanley Morey at [email protected] if you have a specific question.


----------



## ebroil (Feb 10, 2003)

rrabbitt said:


> What do you mean "it was largely placebo effect"?
> The guy took HGH, Deca, EPO etc... where's the placebo effect?



He means that the effects may have been psychological or physiological.

It was entirely anecdotal. The guy carried out an experiment on a sample size of 1 with no controls and no effort to accurately quantify any changes.

While it is interesting, it isn't scientific.


----------



## rrabbitt (Oct 4, 2005)

ebroil said:


> He means that the effects may have been psychological or physiological.
> 
> It was entirely anecdotal. The guy carried out an experiment on a sample size of 1 with no controls and no effort to accurately quantify any changes.
> 
> While it is interesting, it isn't scientific.


The placebo effect is when the subject is given a "dummy" drug containing no active ingredients but responds to this "treatment" nevertheless because he believes what he has taken is a legitimate medicine to address his condition.
To apply this to the article, you would have to say that the doctor gave him "dummy" drugs; that he was not in fact taking HGH, Deca, testosterone, EPO etc...
The article has nothing at all to do with the placebo effect.

"Pla·ce·bo ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-sb)
n. pl. pla·ce·bos or pla·ce·boes 

A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to reinforce a patient's expectation to get well"

I agree that the article is unscientific, anecdotal and interesting. I think it's silly to say that the effects of taking anabolic steroids may be merely psychological, though. We already know what anabolics etc do for performance, he didn't have to establish this in his "experiment". 
All he was doing, is explaining how it feels to do these drugs. That it was unscientific and experiential is precisely what made it interesting. He didn't make any claims or try to quantify any changes.


----------



## ebroil (Feb 10, 2003)

rrabbitt said:


> The placebo effect is when the subject is given a "dummy" drug containing no active ingredients but responds to this "treatment" nevertheless because he believes what he has taken is a legitimate medicine to address his condition.
> To apply this to the article, you would have to say that the doctor gave him "dummy" drugs; that he was not in fact taking HGH, Deca, testosterone, EPO etc...
> The article has nothing at all to do with the placebo effect.
> 
> ...



No, you're not understanding the placebo effect. You gave the definition for "placebo." No one said that the drugs he took were placeboes. The statement was that the results came from the placebo effect. I will repay you the courtesy of quoting from the dictionary.

From m-w.com

Main Entry: placebo effect
Function: noun
: improvement in the condition of a sick person that occurs in response to treatment but cannot be considered due to the specific treatment used 

This is precisely what we are discussing relating to this article. The author had a response to the treatment, but it isn't clear to what degree the response was a result of the specific treatment used. 

Indeed, the author undertook the expeirment expecting to experience changes and planning to write an article about them.

Of course, we may never know in an individual patient the degree to which the effects of a drug are psychological or physiological.  This is why we have randomized controlled clinical trials. So that we can say, with a relative degree of certainty, what the physiological effects of a drug actually are.

There's nothing wrong with this article for what it is. There is, however, something wrong with using it as your sole source for understanding the effects of doping in cycling, which is exactly what the original poster was pointing out.

Again, if you still don't see why the placebo effect is important here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect

If those references are insufficient to convince you, I'll gladly point you to some appropriate texts.

I don't mean to belabor this point, however, given that serious cyclists often spend a lot of time reading scientific reports on training methods, I think it's important to be clear about things like this.


----------

