# Made in Italy



## MERAKMAN

Hi All

I have heard from very good sources in the bike trade; from people that own and manage UK bike shops, that Italian bikes are not that Italian any more. I know this has been talked about before, but I just wanted to use this forum to discuss the implications of this. I realise some people are probably sick of hearing about it, so don't worry about reading this if you are....

A) If this is true then what do the employees at the Italian factories do all day now that they no longer make bike frames? Have some been laid off? What about all that talent going to waste now the Taiwanese are welding their frames. Will the art of welding frames/frame building be forgotton in time in Italy?


B) Why hasn't the cost saving of making a frame in Taiwan or China been passed down to the buyer? The prices are still high and don't go down year to year? 


C) Is the quality affected? I guess for carbon frames the answer would be no, because the carbon quality in the Far East is apparantly very good and equal if not better than what the Italians can produce. Though what about the alloy frame welding quality?

D) Why don't the Italian frame builders just tell the truth about where their frames are made? One Italian frame builder is doing the honest thing and telling us some of their frames are made in Italy, some in Taiwan. If it is to be believed, then I think this is fair enough.

E) In the UK there is a Trade Descriptions Act that protects the buyer from any BS that a manufacturer may give. To say that a product is made in eg: Britain and it was actually found out to be made in the Far East, it would be against the law and would constitute selling a product under false pretence. Is there not one in Italy, or is this a cover up to help the Italian economy? I mean how much would it affect sales if all the Italian frame builders said they didn't produce frames in Italy anymore, but just designed and tested the prototypes there? 

F) Should we care whether they are made in Italy or not? Well I believe we should if we are being told they ARE made in Italy and they are not, beacause we are being lied to. Plus we do pay a premium for the Made in Italy frames. Eg: King £2600 compared to Cervelo R3 £2000.

Hopefully I haven't offended anyone, but I really think this issue should be discussed more in depth (hopefully resolved one day too)


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## kjmunc

*My $.02*

A) A socialistic government and bloated pension spending should give you this answer. Don't kid yourself.....the welders in Taiwan aren't monkeys with typewriters, they manufacture some of the world's highest quality goods in the most modern factories.

B) See A) for why they need to capture more margin.....plus they don't have scale to help offset their inefficiencies.

C) Quality in very small batches is one thing.....high rate production quality is another. Italy as a whole has traditionally been good at the first and relatively inefficient, which didn't matter since people were willing to pay for a premium good and the associated OH. Taiwan is great at the second, and in comparison is incredibly efficient. Most high-rate production welding for bikes is commodity stuff anymore.....and even some carbon layup for all but the highest end models is too (which is why entry level Colnago's are now Taiwanese made)

D) Because they cling to the idea that brand equity is somehow inseperably linked to the physical assembly of the good by Italian hands (which support point A.) yet again). Nike proved that you can be a design and sourcing shop and people really don't care, as long as you consistently create cool stuff.

E) International labor and manufacturing laws are inconsistent at best when it comes to proving, much less protecting the "made in XYZ" label. Most of the Italian luxury garment industry has moved to Eastern Europe and Asia Minor, but the tags that actually say "Made in Italy" are.....you guessed it.....sewn in Italy. It's a technicality, but it's the same thing a lot of car makers do when they manufacture major sub-assemblies overseas and ship to to be assembled in the US, hence "Made in the USA". 

F) Value is determined by the buyer, not the market. Your point is dead on, and Cervelo is a great example of how a new brand has stormed into the high end market and captured huge share. Their products are easily on par (or even superior in many cases--although I wouldn't want to personally argue with Ernesto or Ugo!), yet they command a lower price point and are often deemed a greater value by those new to the sport who hold no romantic dreams of a master Italian craftsman laboring over their frame as if it were his own. Many of the Taiwanese bikes are made by the same people, or at very least with very, very similar processes, yet have different paint schemes and wildly varying prices.

It's definitely a topic that should spur a lot of discussion, but people will pay for what they value, even if you think it's overpaying for the brand name.


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## MERAKMAN

Hi Kjmunc

Great reply, just what I suspected sadly.

Will there is any point in buying an 'Italian frame' in the future based on the Italian dream (as alot of people still do buy them for this reason)? More to the point, a buyer might as well purchase what they think is the best product on the market for them, rather than getting hung up on the idea of an 'Italian' hand made frame.

It will be interesting to see how the market goes when more people pick up on the made in Taiwan 'Italian' frame building reality...

Also do you have any idea when the Italian companies started out sourcing their production? I think Pinarello was about 2005 with Galileo and Colnago was 2006 with the Arte etc, but De Rosa; I'm not sure if they out source or not?


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## vision

MERAKMAN said:


> Hi All
> 
> I have heard from very good sources in the bike trade; from people that own and manage UK bike shops, that Italian bikes are that Italian any more. I know this as been discussed before, but I just wanted to use this forum to discuss the implications of this. I realise some people are probably sick of hearing about it, so don't worry about reading this if you are....


Well some bikes are still genuine Italian made - like all De Rosas, except for the Avant.




> C) Is the quality affected? I guess for carbon frames the answer would be no, because the carbon quality in the Far East is apparantly very good and equal if not better than what the Italians can produce. Though what about the alloy frame welding quality?



The best artisans will always make something better than a mass production factory.




> D) Why don't the Italian frame builders just tell the truth about where their frames are made? One Italian frame builder is doing the honest thing and telling us some of their frames are made in Italy, some in Taiwan. If it is to be believed, then I think this is fair enough.


On their old website, Colnago were honest about the CLX being made in Taiwan,
but in the new one, they fail to mention it 

Bianchi put 'made in Italy' stickers on thier bikes, even though all of the bikes are constructed in East Asia.

They make more money by 'streching the truth':wink5: 





> F) Should we care whether they are made in Italy or not? Well I believe we should if we are being told they ARE made in Italy and they are not, beacause we are being lied to. Plus we do pay a premium for the Made in Italy frames. Eg: King £2600 compared to Cervelo R3 £2000.


Yes, we should care.

An artisan is a highly talented person, whose talents should be made useful for everyone's
benefit.
A factory worker is just a drone. There is no human element in a factory product.
It is souless garbage.

People who don't care about such things are often drones themselves ie the mass consumer.




btw, De Rosa is still family owned and run and headed by Ugo De Rosa.


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## MERAKMAN

Hi Vision

Thanks for the information, btw where did you hear/see that all De Rosa's are made in Italy? I agree with you that the Avant is made by Mizuno in the Far East, but not sure about the other frames with all the rumours flying around. I'd like want it to be true that they are made in Italy........maybe I'm a sucker for wanting this. Also agree with you about the drones, some people just can't see class....

I also hope Ugo continues to run the company with his sons for a long time more and not sell out to some faceless comglomerate company.


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## vision

MERAKMAN said:


> Hi Vision
> 
> Thanks for the information, btw where did you hear/see that all De Rosa's are made in Italy? I agree with you that the Avant is made by Mizuno in the Far East, but not sure about the other frames with all the rumours flying around. I'd like want it to be true that they are made in Italy........maybe I'm a sucker for wanting this. Also agree with you about the drones, some people just can't see class.....





De Rosa's website http://www.derosanews.com/ states somewhere in the forum section
that all of the frames are cut, welded and painted in thier factory (except for the 
Avant, the frame being made in Asia, but painted in the De Rosa factory)

Here is a good link

'Where was my bike made?'

http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328


I'm pretty confident that your Merak/King was 100% made in the De Rosa facory in Milan 




> I also hope Ugo continues to run the company with his sons for a long time more and not sell out to some faceless comglomerate company.


I also own a (new) Masi, which is now 0% Italian... I laugh when I hear this described as an 'Italian bike'. The only thing in common with the old Masi is the name, there is no Italian influence whatsoever.


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## MERAKMAN

Hi Vision

Thanks for the link that (almost) confirms that De Rosa's are made in Italy....

Do you own a Vision btw? Hows the Masi compare to you De Rosa?


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## steel515

*why Avant?*



vision said:


> De Rosa's website http://www.derosanews.com/ states somewhere in the forum section
> that all of the frames are cut, welded and painted in thier factory (except for the
> Avant, the frame being made in Asia, but painted in the De Rosa factory)
> 
> Here is a good link
> 
> 'Where was my bike made?'
> 
> http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328
> 
> 
> I'm pretty confident that your Merak/King was 100% made in the De Rosa facory in}
> 
> Why would Derosa build non-derosa built Avant when rest are built by them? Is there a big price difference?


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## barry1021

THe best steel bikes are now made in

America.

That is why my modern steel frame will be built by Carl Strong.

YMMV.

b21


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## MERAKMAN

Hi Steel515

The Avant, when launched, was significantly cheaper than the next carbon model in the range, the Idol. In the UK it was about £1300 in 2007, the Idol being about £1800 for frame and fork. So there is a saving there over the other carbon models in the range. It's now £1700 compared to £2300 for the Idol..

The whole world has increased its prices it seems....NICE! 

It annoys me that companies are outsourcing their production which will save them money, but they are still increasing their prices. I'm not saying De Rosa ARE outsourcing, but others have and have not lowed their prices...Campagnolo for one..

To add, there's nothing wrong with the quality coming from Far East production; I just would like companies to be honest about the origin of production, of their products, rather than pull the wool over their customers eyes..


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## dave2pvd

vision said:


> The best artisans will always make something better than a mass production factory.


IMO, this is a myth, particularly in the case of welding.

I work in the automation field. I firmly believe that robots can weld better than humans. In fact, some very talented welders have agreed with me on this point. 

We frequently get involved with welding applications where a welder will actually program the automation/robot weld paths. So, I suppose there is still some artisan involvement.

Incidentally, it's not just mass production that lends itself to robotic welding. If you were making 3 frames a day - even of different sizes or materials, a single $60,000 robot would be an economical way to ensure high quality. Of course you would need numerous jigs - just as you would with hand welding.


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## MERAKMAN

dave2pvd said:


> IMO, this is a myth, particularly in the case of welding.
> 
> I work in the automation field. I firmly believe that robots can weld better than humans. In fact, some very talented welders have agreed with me on this point.
> 
> We frequently get involved with welding applications where a welder will actually program the automation/robot weld paths. So, I suppose there is still some artisan involvement.
> 
> Incidentally, it's not just mass production that lends itself to robotic welding. If you were making 3 frames a day - even of different sizes or materials, a single $60,000 robot would be an economical way to ensure high quality. Of course you would need numerous jigs - just as you would with hand welding.



Thanks for your input. 

Do you have any pics of robots welding frames? If its an Italian made robot then I don't mind if they weld my Italian frame


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## Gnarly 928

Interesting thread.

I had the "pain" of delving into the quality of an Italian-made DeRosa Dual. Last fall I crashed my Dual and crimped the downtube. I loved the bike so that I couldn't stand to just toss it, so I repaired the frame with composites and re-painted it. During my repair, I removed lots of paint and 'bondo' from the welds..Now, I've only dug into this one DeRosa Dual, so this may be pretty wide spread as a pracitce on welded frames, but there was quite a bit of cosmetic filler around the welds at the headtube and the paint 'substrate' was also a lot of 'filler'.

Don't get me wrong, the Dual is one of my favorite bikes and I also had a King that was super, too. The finish on the Dual, a step above most other bike brands. Classy! But I didn't see anything special about the bike's construction once I sanded-off the paint and got down to the metal.

Still ride my Dual often. One of the best climbing bikes I've ever ridden.

Don Hanson


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> I had the "pain" of delving into the quality of an Italian-made DeRosa Dual. Last fall I crashed my Dual and crimped the downtube. I loved the bike so that I couldn't stand to just toss it, so I repaired the frame with composites and re-painted it. During my repair, I removed lots of paint and 'bondo' from the welds..Now, I've only dug into this one DeRosa Dual, so this may be pretty wide spread as a pracitce on welded frames, but there was quite a bit of cosmetic filler around the welds at the headtube and the paint 'substrate' was also a lot of 'filler'.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, the Dual is one of my favorite bikes and I also had a King that was super, too. The finish on the Dual, a step above most other bike brands. Classy! But I didn't see anything special about the bike's construction once I sanded-off the paint and got down to the metal.
> 
> Still ride my Dual often. One of the best climbing bikes I've ever ridden.
> 
> Don Hanson


Your story amazes me. So what 'composites' did you use to repair your Dual top tube? Not being funny, but is it safe to ride? Is that the original Dual or the Dual HF?

Also what is 'bondo' and 'substrate' ?


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## Gnarly 928

*Original Dual, I guess...Don't know about HF..*



MERAKMAN said:


> Your story amazes me. So what 'composites' did you use to repair your Dual top tube? Not being funny, but is it safe to ride? Is that the original Dual or the Dual HF?
> 
> Also what is 'bondo' and 'substrate' ?


 I got the frame and fork on a close out deal. Deduci (sp) main triangle with carbon rear and fork. A super climbing bike. 

The crash broke a fork leg and put a crimp into the downtube behind the head tube..as you'd expect in a front on crash. I'd felt the front end of the Dual was a little too soft for my liking anyway. The bike was super light anyhow, so I decided a few hundred grams of carbon might actually make the bike ride better...though it had totally lost any value to anyone but me. Who'd want a 're-worked' DeRosa? Nobody but me..

I worked in high-tech racing yacht yards with alloys and carbon in spars and hulls and I've done a few racecars using the materials, so I did the work. I used unidirectional carbon tows and epoxy to add a slightly larger radius into the junction of the down tube and the headtube..Kinda like a monocoque frame joint. I fixed the fork and added some depth to the chord (fore and aft) of both legs, wanting a bit more stiffness when standing on climbs. Re-painted the whole deal and I've been riding it now for over a year. No problems anywhere. Probably have about 3k miles on the repair...

For what it's worth: I do a hillclimb TT every late winter in California..The Montezuma Grade out of Borrego Springs..It's here 
http://www.julianactive.com/montezumamap.htm
with 3300' elevation gain in 11 miles. I couldn't decide which bike I liked better for climbing: the Dual or a Look 585 that I had too. I did some hill repeats on another little climb, using my Garmin to time the two bikes, averaged out over 10 runs for each bike. they were within 3 seconds of each other over 10 tries! I used the Dual and dropped almost 3 minutes from my previous best time...still slow..but ...

When I was sanding into the Dual's frame to get all the paint off for a good carbon bond, I noticed the Bondo (a generic term for body putty) and lots of filler around the joint where the ovalized downtube joined the headtube...I expected a nice weld, something like I see on Merlins or something..But it was nothing special...a lot of 'substrate' or what we call 'fairing compound' in the boat building world...usually we use microballoons and epoxy..The DeRosa putty was a bit softer than that..I didn't bother to see what it actually was, but it came off with acetone...


I've got 100% confidence in my repair. I have bunny-hopped speed bumps at 45+ mph on the Dual and 'banged over" lotsa cattle guards at speed..It's stonger than new..but it's no longer a 'pristine' DeRosa..

Don Hanson


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> I got the frame and fork on a close out deal. Deduci (sp) main triangle with carbon rear and fork. A super climbing bike.
> 
> The crash broke a fork leg and put a crimp into the downtube behind the head tube..as you'd expect in a front on crash. I'd felt the front end of the Dual was a little too soft for my liking anyway. The bike was super light anyhow, so I decided a few hundred grams of carbon might actually make the bike ride better...though it had totally lost any value to anyone but me. Who'd want a 're-worked' DeRosa? Nobody but me..
> 
> I worked in high-tech racing yacht yards with alloys and carbon in spars and hulls and I've done a few racecars using the materials, so I did the work. I used unidirectional carbon tows and epoxy to add a slightly larger radius into the junction of the down tube and the headtube..Kinda like a monocoque frame joint. I fixed the fork and added some depth to the chord (fore and aft) of both legs, wanting a bit more stiffness when standing on climbs. Re-painted the whole deal and I've been riding it now for over a year. No problems anywhere. Probably have about 3k miles on the repair...
> 
> For what it's worth: I do a hillclimb TT every late winter in California..The Montezuma Grade out of Borrego Springs..It's here
> http://www.julianactive.com/montezumamap.htm
> with 3300' elevation gain in 11 miles. I couldn't decide which bike I liked better for climbing: the Dual or a Look 585 that I had too. I did some hill repeats on another little climb, using my Garmin to time the two bikes, averaged out over 10 runs for each bike. they were within 3 seconds of each other over 10 tries! I used the Dual and dropped almost 3 minutes from my previous best time...still slow..but ...
> 
> When I was sanding into the Dual's frame to get all the paint off for a good carbon bond, I noticed the Bondo (a generic term for body putty) and lots of filler around the joint where the ovalized downtube joined the headtube...I expected a nice weld, something like I see on Merlins or something..But it was nothing special...a lot of 'substrate' or what we call 'fairing compound' in the boat building world...usually we use microballoons and epoxy..The DeRosa putty was a bit softer than that..I didn't bother to see what it actually was, but it came off with acetone...
> 
> 
> I've got 100% confidence in my repair. I have bunny-hopped speed bumps at 45+ mph on the Dual and 'banged over" lotsa cattle guards at speed..It's stonger than new..but it's no longer a 'pristine' DeRosa..
> 
> Don Hanson


Thanks for the info. I'm so impressed with this! So does the old De Rosa downtube still exist under the composite material you've used to repair it? Please post some pictures. 

Also what is 'fairing compound'? Did you take any pictures during the repair of the welds etc. I take it the welds weren't that smooth under the filler?


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## eff_dee

So essentially, De Rosa are using body filler around the welds to make the junction look smoother?

Did it look like there was a sufficient amount of weld to start with?


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## smokva

No welds can look that good as De Rosa's do without filler. I haven't heard about single case of welding problem with AL De Rosa fremaes so I conclude that there is sufficient ammout of welds there.


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## Gnarly 928

Yes, the welds look fine. I am no welder. I was, however, amazed at the classy welds I saw on my Merlin Extralight frame. I am sure those were done with full knowledge that the frame was going to be sold un-painted, so extra skill and care was taken to make them very pretty.

Building a bike, it's not rocket science. It's a balance of making some money by efficient production of a desirable product. So if it takes a bit of cosmetic putty to smooth the surface for a fine paint finish, the builders have to do that rather than trying to find a bunch of tube welders who can lay down 'perfect' welds on every frame. Welders like that would likely demand a big fat wage, which would increase the cost of the bike's production without actually making much difference in how it rides..Balancing act...DeRosa's do have an outstanding finish. Their ride is superbe, too. Price is up there, also...
Don Hanson


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## dave2pvd

The Merlin is Ti, right? Ti isn't easy to weld, but you do end up with a neat, narrow weld bead when it's done right. Aluminum on the other hand is usually TIG welded and can produce some 'fat' looking beads. Any aluminum TIGing I've seen on frames has been robot-welded. Or hand-welded by magicians.

The filler around the welds is normal. In fact, it reminds me of how limited production Alfa Romeo bodywork was done. LOTS of filler to smooth out the panels. Many were actually skim-coated with Bondo-like compound.

Italian robots? There aren't many.....so many robots are Japanese or German now. But made in China. There are some Italian robot brands (Comau, owned by FIAT is one). Afterall, when it comes to robot automotive assembly/fab/welding, the Italians were close to the forefront in the 1980s. They may still be....?


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## MERAKMAN

dave2pvd said:


> The Merlin is Ti, right? Ti isn't easy to weld, but you do end up with a neat, narrow weld bead when it's done right. Aluminum on the other hand is usually TIG welded and can produce some 'fat' looking beads. Any aluminum TIGing I've seen on frames has been robot-welded. Or hand-welded by magicians.
> 
> The filler around the welds is normal. In fact, it reminds me of how limited production Alfa Romeo bodywork was done. LOTS of filler to smooth out the panels. Many were actually skim-coated with Bondo-like compound.
> 
> Italian robots? There aren't many.....so many robots are Japanese or German now. But made in China. There are some Italian robot brands (Comau, owned by FIAT is one). Afterall, when it comes to robot automotive assembly/fab/welding, the Italians were close to the forefront in the 1980s. They may still be....?


Look at that little bugger go, welding away! Looks like he knows what his doing. :thumbsup: You've opened my eyes up to bikes welded by robots, which is probably going to be the norm for the future of frame building...thanks for the pics!


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> Yes, the welds look fine. I am no welder. I was, however, amazed at the classy welds I saw on my Merlin Extralight frame. I am sure those were done with full knowledge that the frame was going to be sold un-painted, so extra skill and care was taken to make them very pretty.
> 
> Building a bike, it's not rocket science. It's a balance of making some money by efficient production of a desirable product. So if it takes a bit of cosmetic putty to smooth the surface for a fine paint finish, the builders have to do that rather than trying to find a bunch of tube welders who can lay down 'perfect' welds on every frame. Welders like that would likely demand a big fat wage, which would increase the cost of the bike's production without actually making much difference in how it rides..Balancing act...DeRosa's do have an outstanding finish. Their ride is superbe, too. Price is up there, also...
> Don Hanson


Hi Not wanting to sound too ignorant, but exactly what makes a particular bike makers frames ride better than others? How do De Rosa come to the end product and know it's better than the competition, which from my experience of riding quite a few makes of racing bikes, they are...


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## Gnarly 928

MERAKMAN said:


> Hi Not wanting to sound too ignorant, but exactly what makes a particular bike makers frames ride better than others? How do De Rosa come to the end product and know it's better than the competition, which from my experience of riding quite a few makes of racing bikes, they are...


 It's all pretty subjective, isn't it? Depends on the bike, the person riding it, how they ride, what they are looking for, etc etc etc. Dunno if I could pick one brand as THE best. I've had probably 10 different high end frames from different builders over the past few years, it's kinda a hobby of mine, switching bikes just for fun. I keep about 3 rideable all the time and then swap out one at a time, changing over my components and re-selling the "old" one without losing too much each time.

Any of the "good" frame makers, those who've been around a while, they all offer excellent bikes..Different brands have different strong points, a different fit, etc. Many have very different bikes, but still high end..Like the DeRosa line with the 3 top models that work well for different stuff. I think part of it is just plain 'knowing what works' from having built thousands of bikes over the years. 

Some brands are simply not suitable for some riders...physically, the rider won't match the frame's geometry. I seem to be able to fit onto most stock frames, lucky me.

I didn't like some of the high end bikes I've owned...not cause they were crappy bikes, but more because I wasn't able to be 'comfortable' on the bike. Not comfortable like riding in a Rolls, but more like I wanted something other than the bike could furnish me. Like, I loved my King but I didn't want a bike that excelled at giving the rider a smooth ride in the saddle, I want a bike that gives me the most speed without killing my butt..(this year..hee hee..)

Any of the Italian makers probably would please me with one or two of their offerings...I have a CX-1 Colnago coming right now...probably sell off my Ridley Damocles..Never owned a Pinarello...maybe next...

fun stuff, Don Hanson


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> It's all pretty subjective, isn't it? Depends on the bike, the person riding it, how they ride, what they are looking for, etc etc etc. Dunno if I could pick one brand as THE best. I've had probably 10 different high end frames from different builders over the past few years, it's kinda a hobby of mine, switching bikes just for fun. I keep about 3 rideable all the time and then swap out one at a time, changing over my components and re-selling the "old" one without losing too much each time.
> 
> Any of the "good" frame makers, those who've been around a while, they all offer excellent bikes..Different brands have different strong points, a different fit, etc. Many have very different bikes, but still high end..Like the DeRosa line with the 3 top models that work well for different stuff. I think part of it is just plain 'knowing what works' from having built thousands of bikes over the years.
> 
> Some brands are simply not suitable for some riders...physically, the rider won't match the frame's geometry. I seem to be able to fit onto most stock frames, lucky me.
> 
> I didn't like some of the high end bikes I've owned...not cause they were crappy bikes, but more because I wasn't able to be 'comfortable' on the bike. Not comfortable like riding in a Rolls, but more like I wanted something other than the bike could furnish me. Like, I loved my King but I didn't want a bike that excelled at giving the rider a smooth ride in the saddle, I want a bike that gives me the most speed without killing my butt..(this year..hee hee..)
> 
> Any of the Italian makers probably would please me with one or two of their offerings...I have a CX-1 Colnago coming right now...probably sell off my Ridley Damocles..Never owned a Pinarello...maybe next...
> 
> fun stuff, Don Hanson



Variety is the Spice of Life! But I've mainly bought De Rosa's because they fit me well. I guess its about taking the plunge and buying another makers frame and hoping I'll like that as much. The CX-1 looks very good, I hope you enjoy it when you get it! 


Did you get rid of the King? What did you most like about it and how did it compare to your other steeds? Sorry for all the questions.


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## smokva

Don't like Colnago CX-1 and EPS. C50, Extreme C or Extreme Power are the frames from Colnago lineup I would choose. Extreme Power would probably be my 1st Colnago choice.


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> Don't like Colnago CX-1 and EPS. C50, Extreme C or Extreme Power are the frames from Colnago lineup I would choose. Extreme Power would probably be my 1st Colnago choice.



H Ante

Please explain your choices

Y don't you like the CX-1 and EPS?


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## smokva

Well...for C50 and both extremes you are sure they are made in Italy...for other two...well not really  Back to the "made in Italy" question


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> Well...for C50 and both extremes you are sure they are made in Italy...for other two...well not really  Back to the "made in Italy" question



Ohh! Thats a thought, the CX-1 is definatly made outside of Italy, but the EPS? I'm not sure about that?  Don't you just wish all this doubting and chinese whispers were cleared up and people were HONEST about where their products are made?!  Seems like their consciences have left them, or maybe they are choosing to ignore them and putting the money first.
I reckon it will bite them one day soon though..when people stop buying over priced 'Italian' designed Far East made frames and go buy American designed, made in the Far East frames, with the buyers full knowledge of where its made and no BS! Or go buy a made in the far east frame, by a far east based company ; like Giants for one.

Sometimes I wonder if theres any honesty left in this world, sorry to sound dispondant, but look at whats going on in the world now. Seems everyones out for themselves and out just to make money, no one seems to care too much about each other and being geniune anymore. I like forums like this where people just say what they think and are honest about things....well about bikes anyway.:thumbsup:


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## smokva

Lets get back to bikes 
If EPS is made in Italy, I don't see the need for it in Colnago lineup with Extremes and C50 already there. Why do they need 4th lugged carbon frame frame that is made in Italy? It just doesn't make any sence to me. But the fact that custom geometry is possible with EPS could suggest it really might be made in Italy.
I thought, and that is logical to me, they introduced EPS and CX1 as their top technology alternative that isn't done in Italy which will eventually through high prizes and aggressive marketing boost and maximize their earnings. There is enough customers that don't care where are the frames done and those frames are intended for them. Probably they earn more on one chinese frame than two italian.


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> Lets get back to bikes
> If EPS is made in Italy, I don't see the need for it in Colnago lineup with Extremes and C50 already there. Why do they need 4th lugged carbon frame frame that is made in Italy? It just doesn't make any sence to me. But the fact that custom geometry is possible with EPS could suggest it really might be made in Italy.
> I thought, and that is logical to me, they introduced EPS and CX1 as their top technology alternative that isn't done in Italy which will eventually through high prizes and aggressive marketing boost and maximize their earnings. There is enough customers that don't care where are the frames done and those frames are intended for them. Probably they earn more on one chinese frame than two italian.



Do you know of any Pro teams that Colnago are sponsoring next year? 

Also, if it were your money, what would you take: C-50 standard, C-50 Extreme Power, De Rosa Idol or King3? I'm guessing you wouldn't touch the EPS and CX-1..?


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## Gnarly 928

According to the 'hype' in some of the publications, Colnago, with it's CX-1, is responding to the market demand by producing a more modern frame for the big bad racers who want to ride the latest tech frames. Not many companies are still making frames out of tubes, for various reasons that are not appropriate for discussion here on a rider's forum. If the hot-shots no longer want to race the lugged/tube style bikes, sales will soon dwindle. 

I'm just guessing, but in a few years, I'd guess we won't be seeing very many lugged tube frames in carbon and those few still being built will probably be bought by "traditionalists". Or by riders who can't get a 'standard size' frame to fit their body..

What's this have to do with DeRosa? Well, the King I had recently was a molded frame. The newer Kings are much lighter. As the frame makers learn how to take advantage of the material and manufacturing processes involved in molding a frame, they seem to be getting better and going beyond tubes and lugs. Debatable, for sure...But if no one wants to ride a lugged tubed frame anymore, they become difficult to market.

Another consideration is the building process. Take the Look frames, for instance. They offer 'standard' and "Ultra" models of the same frame. They can use the same molds and the same Tunisian factory workers to build two distinctly differnt handling bikes for wider customer base. They only have to vary the material lay up somewhat to get a claimed 15% stiffer frame. 

Don Hanson


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## smokva

MERAKMAN said:


> Also, if it were your money, what would you take: C-50 standard, C-50 Extreme Power, De Rosa Idol or King3? I'm guessing you wouldn't touch the EPS and CX-1..?


From the Colnago lineup Extreme Power is my favorite, but I would never buy Colnago because all my friends are driving them. Our large group rides are like 5 Colnagos, 3 Looks and 1 De Rosa 
So, I think I'll buy De Rosa again, and it would probably be Titanio XS or Neo Pro...something traditional that won't be out of the fashion year after. I would like to have both of them, but I'm in no position to collect bikes now :mad2:


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> From the Colnago lineup Extreme Power is my favorite, but I would never buy Colnago because all my friends are driving them. Our large group rides are like 5 Colnagos, 3 Looks and 1 De Rosa
> So, I think I'll buy De Rosa again, and it would probably be Titanio XS or Neo Pro...something traditional that won't be out of the fashion year after. I would like to have both of them, but I'm in no position to collect bikes now :mad2:


All good things come to those who wait. 
Interesting that you'd take the new Neo Pro over the C-50, with respect the C-50 has been raced and has massive success and reliability. Do you think the Neo Pro will be raced?


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## smokva

No, I don't think Neo Pro will be raced. I think De Rosa will force King 3 as their racing frame. I'm sure King 3 is cheaper in production than Neo Pro so ppl from De Rosa will try to make it look that King 3 is better and true racing frame, only to boost selling of it.


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## smokva

BTW One of my friends that has C50 and Extreme C is selling C50 and buying EPS. In a few months I will tell you his impressions about new EPS.


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> According to the 'hype' in some of the publications, Colnago, with it's CX-1, is responding to the market demand by producing a more modern frame for the big bad racers who want to ride the latest tech frames. Not many companies are still making frames out of tubes, for various reasons that are not appropriate for discussion here on a rider's forum. If the hot-shots no longer want to race the lugged/tube style bikes, sales will soon dwindle.
> 
> I'm just guessing, but in a few years, I'd guess we won't be seeing very many lugged tube frames in carbon and those few still being built will probably be bought by "traditionalists". Or by riders who can't get a 'standard size' frame to fit their body..
> 
> What's this have to do with DeRosa? Well, the King I had recently was a molded frame. The newer Kings are much lighter. As the frame makers learn how to take advantage of the material and manufacturing processes involved in molding a frame, they seem to be getting better and going beyond tubes and lugs. Debatable, for sure...But if no one wants to ride a lugged tubed frame anymore, they become difficult to market.
> 
> 
> 
> Another consideration is the building process. Take the Look frames, for instance. They offer 'standard' and "Ultra" models of the same frame. They can use the same molds and the same Tunisian factory workers to build two distinctly differnt handling bikes for wider customer base. They only have to vary the material lay up somewhat to get a claimed 15% stiffer frame.
> 
> Don Hanson


I agree with what you say about carbon lugged frames, which is why its so interesting that De Rosa has just launched its first Carbon lugged frame at a time when, as you say they are somewhat going out of fashion. Personally I think there is a good market for them, on looks and ride alone, but would I take one over an Idol or King3?? I probably wouldn't, because being abit vain perhaps, I want the racers bike that the pro's race.  Though if I rode them both and I preferred the Neo Pro, then I would be torn between head and heart..


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> BTW One of my friends that has C50 and Extreme C is selling C50 and buying EPS. In a few months I will tell you his impressions about new EPS.


Ok thanks. Lucky man! Not being funny, but where does he believe the EPS is made? On reflection, I think they are made in Italy, with the CX-1 out-sourced without doubt..


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## smokva

MERAKMAN said:


> I agree with what you say about carbon lugged frames, which is why its so interesting that De Rosa has just launched its first Carbon lugged frame at a time when, as you say they are somewhat going out of fashion. Personally I think there is a good market for them, on looks and ride alone, but would I take one over an Idol or King3?? I probably wouldn't, because being abit vain perhaps, I want the racers bike that the pro's race.  Though if I rode them both and I preferred the Neo Pro, then I would be torn between head and heart..


It is not De Rosa's first lugged frame...old King and King Xlight were lugged, Protos aswell.
When you look others...Colnago C50, Colnago Extreme C/Power, Look 585, Look 595. All top frames, and all lugged...so nothing wrong with lugs.


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> It is not De Rosa's first lugged frame...old King and King Xlight were lugged, Protos aswell.
> When you look others...Colnago C50, Colnago Extreme C/Power, Look 585, Look 595. All top frames, and all lugged...so nothing wrong with lugs.



True. U got me there!  

I was thinking more about the obvious looking lugged frames, like on the Neo Pro and C50 range, that stand out. But yes, your right, King and King XLight were both lugged frames..

Might as well bang in a question here to you, Neo Pro or C50 Extreme Power?


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## eff_dee

MERAKMAN said:


> True. U got me there!
> 
> I was thinking more about the obvious looking lugged frames, like on the Neo Pro and C50 range, that stand out. But yes, your right, King and King XLight were both lugged frames..


I think the old Kings and Protos were only lugged at the seat tube. Everything else was made with tube-to-tube construction it looks like (same as Idol)


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## smokva

eff_dee said:


> I think the old Kings and Protos were only lugged at the seat tube. Everything else was made with tube-to-tube construction it looks like (same as Idol)


This was King (Xlight I think) in parts:









And this is assembled, with yellow where the joints were:


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## smokva

MERAKMAN said:


> Might as well bang in a question here to you, Neo Pro or C50 Extreme Power?


Easy one...Neo Pro of course :thumbsup:


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> Easy one...Neo Pro of course :thumbsup:


Even though the C50 EP has race predigree? You truely are a real De Rosa lover! 


I was thinking how about how much research and development goes into a frame? How much time would have been spent designing, testing, re-designing etc, until the finished product is ready for the punters??


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## merckxman

*DeRosa Ti*

If I had one DeRosa to buy it would be the Ti because it's still made by a DeRosa...Doriano DeRosa (one of Ugo's sons). See:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2008/01/ct-review-january-2008.html


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## smokva

merckxman said:


> If I had one DeRosa to buy it would be the Ti because it's still made by a DeRosa...Doriano DeRosa (one of Ugo's sons). See:
> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2008/01/ct-review-january-2008.html


I agree 100%, from the current collection it's gotta be Titanio XS. It's s keeper.


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## MERAKMAN

smokva said:


> I agree 100%, from the current collection it's gotta be Titanio XS. It's s keeper.


Have you seen the price of that bugger now? Nearly 4k in the UK!


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## smokva

THe reason why am I not buying one


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## BikeNerd2453

smokva said:


> Lets get back to bikes
> If EPS is made in Italy, I don't see the need for it in Colnago lineup with Extremes and C50 already there. Why do they need 4th lugged carbon frame frame that is made in Italy? It just doesn't make any sence to me. But the fact that custom geometry is possible with EPS could suggest it really might be made in Italy.
> I thought, and that is logical to me, they introduced EPS and CX1 as their top technology alternative that isn't done in Italy which will eventually through high prizes and aggressive marketing boost and maximize their earnings. There is enough customers that don't care where are the frames done and those frames are intended for them. Probably they earn more on one chinese frame than two italian.


Extreme C, Extreme Power, EPS, C50 - all built in Italy.
CLX, CX-1 - built in Asia.

The EPS I'm sure will replace the Extreme Power after this year, a year of overlap is probably all that's needed. C50 is classic, like the Master X Light, no need to replace it...


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> It's all pretty subjective, isn't it? Depends on the bike, the person riding it, how they ride, what they are looking for, etc etc etc. Dunno if I could pick one brand as THE best. I've had probably 10 different high end frames from different builders over the past few years, it's kinda a hobby of mine, switching bikes just for fun. I keep about 3 rideable all the time and then swap out one at a time, changing over my components and re-selling the "old" one without losing too much each time.
> 
> Any of the "good" frame makers, those who've been around a while, they all offer excellent bikes..Different brands have different strong points, a different fit, etc. Many have very different bikes, but still high end..Like the DeRosa line with the 3 top models that work well for different stuff. I think part of it is just plain 'knowing what works' from having built thousands of bikes over the years.
> 
> Some brands are simply not suitable for some riders...physically, the rider won't match the frame's geometry. I seem to be able to fit onto most stock frames, lucky me.
> 
> I didn't like some of the high end bikes I've owned...not cause they were crappy bikes, but more because I wasn't able to be 'comfortable' on the bike. Not comfortable like riding in a Rolls, but more like I wanted something other than the bike could furnish me. Like, I loved my King but I didn't want a bike that excelled at giving the rider a smooth ride in the saddle, I want a bike that gives me the most speed without killing my butt..(this year..hee hee..)
> 
> Any of the Italian makers probably would please me with one or two of their offerings...I have a CX-1 Colnago coming right now...probably sell off my Ridley Damocles..Never owned a Pinarello...maybe next...
> 
> fun stuff, Don Hanson


Could I ask why you went for a CX-1, rather than the similarly priced C-50? Or do you have a C-50 already, I don't recall?


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## Gnarly 928

MERAKMAN said:


> Could I ask why you went for a CX-1, rather than the similarly priced C-50? Or do you have a C-50 already, I don't recall?



Sure. A couple of reasons. Reading the reveiws, I gather the CX-1 is lighter and more race-oriented. Reveiws are often kinda silly, though. 

One of my team mates, who is a good masters racer and a bike shop owner, tested one recently. "Thumbs-up" was his reveiw. He said it beat his Extreem Power's performance significantly. I highly respect his opinion...He is about my size and is a stellar climber who can have any bike he chooses. He's waiting on his CX-1, too. He rides a C-50 sometimes, but doesn't race it.

Perhaps I am gullible or 'trendy'..but when I read about professional riders getting less enthusiastic about a frame that's been essentially unchanged for many years, like the C-50s, and I see Colnago respond with a whole new-style frame, I choose to get the new one. The published ride reveiws do back up the advertising hype. I've read nothing negative about the CX-1 other than it is made "not in Italy so it sucks.." and that I read right here on RBR.

Also, I recently owned a Look 585. Quite similar to a C-50 (I have not ridden a C-50, so that's second-hand, from others) I am told. Similar geometry and construction, similar price range, similar 'snob-appeal' similar quality. I'm guessing the C-50 would be much like the Look (heavier though, according to the specs) and while the Look was a super all-around bike, I don't need another all around bike...expecially not one for $4-5 grand.

I have a Ridley Noah for sprints and "power races" so the EP doesn't fit in. I am looking for a climbing and mountainous RR frame. I have a Ridley Damocles for an all around frame...at 25% of the cost of a C-50. That one will likely go on the market if the CX-1 ever arrives.

So there you are..
Don Hanson


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## MERAKMAN

Gnarly 928 said:


> Sure. A couple of reasons. Reading the reveiws, I gather the CX-1 is lighter and more race-oriented. Reveiws are often kinda silly, though.
> 
> One of my team mates, who is a good masters racer and a bike shop owner, tested one recently. "Thumbs-up" was his reveiw. He said it beat his Extreem Power's performance significantly. I highly respect his opinion...He is about my size and is a stellar climber who can have any bike he chooses. He's waiting on his CX-1, too. He rides a C-50 sometimes, but doesn't race it.
> 
> Perhaps I am gullible or 'trendy'..but when I read about professional riders getting less enthusiastic about a frame that's been essentially unchanged for many years, like the C-50s, and I see Colnago respond with a whole new-style frame, I choose to get the new one. The published ride reveiws do back up the advertising hype. I've read nothing negative about the CX-1 other than it is made "not in Italy so it sucks.." and that I read right here on RBR.
> 
> Also, I recently owned a Look 585. Quite similar to a C-50 (I have not ridden a C-50, so that's second-hand, from others) I am told. Similar geometry and construction, similar price range, similar 'snob-appeal' similar quality. I'm guessing the C-50 would be much like the Look (heavier though, according to the specs) and while the Look was a super all-around bike, I don't need another all around bike...expecially not one for $4-5 grand.
> 
> I have a Ridley Noah for sprints and "power races" so the EP doesn't fit in. I am looking for a climbing and mountainous RR frame. I have a Ridley Damocles for an all around frame...at 25% of the cost of a C-50. That one will likely go on the market if the CX-1 ever arrives.
> 
> So there you are..
> Don Hanson


Hi thanks. I concur and as say, it doesn't matter where its made; its a f##g good frame!


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## tecnosabba

BikeNerd2453 said:


> Extreme C, Extreme Power, EPS, C50 - all built in Italy.
> CLX, CX-1 - built in Asia.
> 
> The EPS I'm sure will replace the Extreme Power after this year, a year of overlap is probably all that's needed. C50 is classic, like the Master X Light, no need to replace it...



I missed this thread a few weeks ago.

Basically, to keep things simple:

All lugged carbon Colnago's are made in Italy (tubes and lugs by ATR http://www.atrgroup.it/clienti.htm#8, mitering, assembly, painting, and everything in between I forgot to mention) from scratch, whereas the non-lugged constructions, CLX, and CX-1 ( I do not say monocoque, because they are no pure monocoques: according to the info on C's website, the front triangle only is a monocoque construction, whereas the seat- and chainstays are glued to the main triangle) are made in Asia. I do not know where they source the carbon for these models, though.

Seems quite coherent : the "traditional" constructions remain in Italy, where traditionalists (to which group I belong for road bike aesthetics) want their bikes to be built, whereas the more "modernist" bikes are outsourced to Asia, where I believe the quality is as excellent as it can be in Europe. The romantic "made in..." factor will probably not matter to those who want a lighter and maybe more "modern" looking bike, no matter the place where it was built.

However, assuming the ride and product quality is similar, if I were to buy a bike looking like a Giant, I'd take...well, a Giant, not a CX-1.:idea: 

Just my 0.02


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## MERAKMAN

tecnosabba said:


> I missed this thread a few weeks ago.
> 
> Basically, to keep things simple:
> 
> All lugged carbon Colnago's are made in Italy (tubes and lugs by ATR http://www.atrgroup.it/clienti.htm#8, mitering, assembly, painting, and everything in between I forgot to mention) from scratch, whereas the non-lugged constructions, CLX, and CX-1 ( I do not say monocoque, because they are no pure monocoques: according to the info on C's website, the front triangle only is a monocoque construction, whereas the seat- and chainstays are glued to the main triangle) are made in Asia. I do not know where they source the carbon for these models, though.
> 
> Seems quite coherent : the "traditional" constructions remain in Italy, where traditionalists (to which group I belong for road bike aesthetics) want their bikes to be built, whereas the more "modernist" bikes are outsourced to Asia, where I believe the quality is as excellent as it can be in Europe. The romantic "made in..." factor will probably not matter to those who want a lighter and maybe more "modern" looking bike, no matter the place where it was built.
> 
> However, assuming the ride and product quality is similar, if I were to buy a bike looking like a Giant, I'd take...well, a Giant, not a CX-1.:idea:
> 
> Just my 0.02



Hi I agree with all you say. Also about the Giant option. I've been told that you'll get more of a bike in a Giant TCR then in the CX-1, its what my LBS told me. Personally I like them both..


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## eff_dee

All monocoque Colnagos were made in Italy, up until the Cristallo. Fabsroman can verify.

I guess it became too expensive or too difficult for ATR to produce those frames in the #'s Colnago needs. So off to Taiwan.


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## tecnosabba

*Re : Made in Italy*



eff_dee said:


> All monocoque Colnagos were made in Italy, up until the Cristallo. Fabsroman can verify.
> 
> 
> I didn't know precisely since when production of the non-lugged frames had been outsourced.
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> TS


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## ultimobici

eff_dee said:


> All monocoque Colnagos were made in Italy, up until the Cristallo. Fabsroman can verify.
> 
> I guess it became too expensive or too difficult for ATR to produce those frames in the #'s Colnago needs. So off to Taiwan.


Thought Colnago's first monocoque WAS the Cristallo. C-40,C-50 Extremes were all lugged. Having said that, Colnago's first carbon frame was not made in house as ALAN made the Bi-Carbon in the late 80's.


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## MERAKMAN

ultimobici said:


> Thought Colnago's first monocoque WAS the Cristallo. C-40,C-50 Extremes were all lugged. Having said that, Colnago's first carbon frame was not made in house as ALAN made the Bi-Carbon in the late 80's.



HI There was a frame called the President too, which had enormous tubing on it...


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## eff_dee

ultimobici said:


> Thought Colnago's first monocoque WAS the Cristallo. C-40,C-50 Extremes were all lugged. Having said that, Colnago's first carbon frame was not made in house as ALAN made the Bi-Carbon in the late 80's.


Colnago have made a few monos since they started playing with carbon.

The Carbonissimo for example:

http://members.lycos.nl/michaelmuusse/colnago carbonissimo lx37 2.jpg


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## MERAKMAN

eff_dee said:


> Colnago have made a few monos since they started playing with carbon.
> 
> The Carbonissimo for example:
> 
> http://members.lycos.nl/michaelmuusse/colnago carbonissimo lx37 2.jpg


Jeez, du think that frame was made for stifness or what? Thats the largest bottom bracket area ever!!


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## smokva

MERAKMAN said:


> Jeez, du think that frame was made for stifness or what? Thats the largest bottom bracket area ever!!


If I remember right it was TT or track frame what would explain the looks of it.


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