# Train with power meter = race with power meter?



## obiwan kenobi (Dec 14, 2009)

We all know the value of the data we get from our training rides with a power meter, how many of you who train with a power meter also race with it? Do you have two sets of wheels each with a power meter? 

We see the pros race with SRM cranks but what about racing with a Cycleops Power Meter, is the weight offset by the data you get back?


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Train and Race with PowerTap. Have training wheels and racing wheels both have a PT Hub.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Weight is minimum, especially since it's centered around the hub.

Race with a PM to find your true weaknesses. Train with a PM to fix them. Hand-in-hand relationship.

If you can afford to buy tubulars with a PM, you can probably splurge for a 2nd set of clinchers for training. Or, do what most people do and just buy nice clinchers with a PT and use it for both.


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## Doctor Who (Feb 22, 2005)

I train and race on my 24H PT SL laced to a DT Swiss RR585. Deep sectionish, sturdy, etc.


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## silver7 (Oct 26, 2005)

*Not necessary every race*

I can only afford one power tap. So, I will race with my rear training wheel a couple of times a year: in an early season crit, and a mid season road race that I have no hope of doing well. This allows my coach to see the numbers and create/adjust my training around them. I couldn't care less about my power in a race. I am going to give it everything I have on a given day anyway, so I go for the race wheels over power meter, hands down.


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## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

I raced and trained with my powertap for a year and it was incredible. But I recently picked up a Quarq so that I could use some deep section wheels without having to buy another PT. (I'm selling my Powertap if anyones interested)


Power data is just too valuable for me when racing. I only look at my Heart rate when I'm racing, but the post-race analysis of the power data I find is incredible.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

silver7 said:


> ...I am going to give it everything I have on a given day anyway, so I go for the race wheels over power meter, hands down.


So, don't you want to know what your power numbers are when you're giving it everything you have?


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

I read a quote about this the other day;

Amateur cyclists using power meters is like employing an accountant to tell you how poor you are...


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

olr1 said:


> I read a quote about this the other day;
> 
> Amateur cyclists using power meters is like employing an accountant to tell you how poor you are...


the forum is fortunate to have you here to offer your insightful commentary.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

JustTooBig said:


> the forum is fortunate to have you here to offer your insightful commentary.


Agreed. While I have no intention of using a PM during a RR or crit, I plan on using one in the TT setting. No, it's not about dropping big numbers, but pacing myself better and watching for the hopeful improvement.


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## Borti (Aug 1, 2008)

olr1 said:


> I read a quote about this the other day;
> 
> Amateur cyclists using power meters is like employing an accountant to tell you how poor you are...


I just don't get this. If amateur's are not supposed to use what the pro's use - then we shouldn't be using nice carbon bikes, expensive wheels, gear and clothing....

Powermeters are hands-down the most effective way of quantifying / qualifying the work you do on a bike. It allows so much more efficient use of your time. This way I can get so much more done on solo / interval rides - and stay a little more focused / dialed on group rides as well.

If we're not supposed to achieve the greatest understanding of our physiological capacities and limitations possible - then why should we invest in bikes, gear and etc... that do nothing of the sort?

The PM such an effective tool - I really wish more people understood this. 

Note this is NOT an attack. I respect your position I just wanted to offer insight into why some people purchase them.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm not a data guy but I don't 'get' the value of using one in a race. For example if I were to compare power numbers of a race I managed to be smart in to one where I got gapped or fell off the back the power meter would show the opposite of how I raced. My goal in a race is not to do the most work I can.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Hank Stamper said:


> I'm not a data guy but I don't 'get' the value of using one in a race. For example if I were to compare power numbers of a race I managed to be smart in to one where I got gapped or fell off the back the power meter would show the opposite of how I raced. My goal in a race is not to do the most work I can.


For me, it's been useful for identifying and quantifying limiters. E.g., exactly what was happening when you got gapped and what significant events led up to it?


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

ah, that makes sense, undecided.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

JustTooBig said:


> the forum is fortunate to have you here to offer your insightful commentary.


Yes, it's a reminder of the core purpose of internet forums.


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

A millionaire can have a shi**y account. He's got enough money that he can afford imperfections in his budget. 
A poor man needs to squeeze ever penny out of every dollar to survive. He needs the good accountant. 

Contador has all the time and resources he needs to train day after day. Its his job so his entire life is built around it. Most of us would love that schedule. If I can find 10 hours to ride in a week I'm thrilled and I believe many amateurs are in the same boat as me. With family, work and other commitments its crucial we get every possible watt we can out of our very limited training time. I'm anal about collecting and analyzing data for this very reason.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

I have one wheelset right now...It's a basic wheelset with open pro rims, 28 spokes (14/15) front and 32 rear with a Dura Ace front hub and a Powertap Pro+ rear hub. I use them to both train and race on and have put a little over 13,000 miles on this wheelset over the past two seasons.

The information you get from races is pretty important in the grand scheme of a training program. You will generally find out that races tend to be easier than your regular group training rides...other than the surges that take place and maybe the final sprint if it ends in a sprint finish. However, the information will show you why you were dropped (or were able to stay on) and where your weaknesses are in a race instead of training rides...and how much you need to improve in those areas to become competitive.

I would love to get a second set of deep dish, tubular, carbon wheels with a Powertap rear wheel for racing...but I don't have the extra 2k sitting around to spend on them (I can get a team deal on a set if I can ever get the 2k). However, my current wheelset does great for all intents and purposes from road races to crits...I however don't use one in TT's since I run a rear disc and don't have 3.5k sitting around to purchase a powertap rear wheel or an SRM/Quark crank.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

competitivecyclist.com has some of the Quark cranks for about 2k or less.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

spade2you said:


> competitivecyclist.com has some of the Quark cranks for about 2k or less.


Gotta have 2k laying around though  

Then you have to spend another 1k - 2k for some deep dish wheels on the road bike...though I own my TT wheels. So then it would be which would be better, a crank for my TT bike or power tap race wheels for my road bike?


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

olr1 said:


> I read a quote about this the other day;
> 
> Amateur cyclists using power meters is like employing an accountant to tell you how poor you are...


Amateur cyclists using power meters is like people earning in the bottom 99.9% of incomes using a financial planner. You know, it's probably a good call for some of them, might seem premature for others, but ultimately up to each person to understand why they might want to, what the costs are, and then decide.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> Gotta have 2k laying around though
> 
> Then you have to spend another 1k - 2k for some deep dish wheels on the road bike...though I own my TT wheels. So then it would be which would be better, a crank for my TT bike or power tap race wheels for my road bike?


Gotcha. When you mentioned $3.5k, I wasn't sure where the pricing was coming from. 

Depending on your gearing, the same crank could theoretically be used on two bikes. I was also hoping to get a generic power tap wheel for general training and a power crank for my TT bike. 

Given some new home repair bills, probably just getting the crank for my TT bike.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

I was only passing on a quote I heard, no need to thank me!

(I don't get the whole powermeter thing, but that's a whole different argument)

As you were gentlemen..


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Depending on your gearing, the same crank could theoretically be used on two bikes. I was also hoping to get a generic power tap wheel for general training and a power crank for my TT bike.
> 
> Given some new home repair bills, probably just getting the crank for my TT bike.


One of my teammates has an SRM crank that he switches between his TT and Road bikes. Basically, he has the same BB installed on both of them and all he needs to do is remove the non-drive side crank arm to switch it from bike to bike.

Works fairly well for his purposes, and if I could afford one (or a Quark for that matter) I'd do the same thing


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

olr1 said:


> I don't get the whole powermeter thing


I don't think anyone here doubted that.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Wookiebiker said:


> One of my teammates has an SRM crank that he switches between his TT and Road bikes. Basically, he has the same BB installed on both of them and all he needs to do is remove the non-drive side crank arm to switch it from bike to bike.
> 
> Works fairly well for his purposes, and if I could afford one (or a Quark for that matter) I'd do the same thing


Quark would be nice if they made a Campy version, although something about having to send in the SRM for batteries and calibration does not sit well with me.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Hank Stamper said:


> I'm not a data guy but I don't 'get' the value of using one in a race. For example if I were to compare power numbers of a race I managed to be smart in to one where I got gapped or fell off the back the power meter would show the opposite of how I raced. My goal in a race is not to do the most work I can.


Exactly why you want a PM. Example, I did a crit where my normalized power was way high for me, my heart rate was maxed and I bearly held on to finish. 25miles btw.

4 days later in a 50 mile park race I sat in the whole time until the second to last lap. Moved up and finished 12th out of 110 riders, half in a Cat higher than mine.

When I looked at the numbers side by side I road 1.3 MPH faster in the 50 mile race, my power output was 30% lower than the crit and my average HR was 137. I did less, went longer, faster and finished better and truth be told I thought it was my easiest race of the year.

So why power meter? Well for one it validated many things we know but maybe don't have data to support (sitting in, conserving energy, etc..)

Also really cool to see what you can do in a race and how it will feel with different overall efforts. I was shocked that my pace was that much faster and my fatigue was nil.

Anyways, I love racing with power.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Sonomasnap said:


> I was shocked that my pace was that much faster and my fatigue was nil.


So why were you only 12th? It sounds like you're not focusing on the right things in that race data file.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Ha ha ha,

I could have lied but didn't. It was a 3/4 race. I am a 4. I finished second of the Cat4 racers and got boxed on the sprint and could not go all out.

Thanks for asking though.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Sonomasnap said:


> Thanks for asking though.


It was more of a rhetorical question. If you don't understand why you didn't win, how can you do things better next time? I don't think of being "boxed in" as something that happens to me, it's something I allow to happen by failing to position myself where I should be or to protect a position I have.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

olr1 said:


> I read a quote about this the other day;
> 
> Amateur cyclists using power meters is like employing an accountant to tell you how poor you are...



Ahh yes the whole you don't deserve that argument - Total BS and usually said by someone taht has not idea how to use a powermeter. Not that they are nessary but some of us know how to use them and get them to help us maximize the little time we have to train.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

asgelle said:


> It was more of a rhetorical question. If you don't understand why you didn't win, how can you do things better next time? I don't think of being "boxed in" as something that happens to me, it's something I allow to happen by failing to position myself where I should be or to protect a position I have.


Fair enough. Could I have gotten in better position? Maybe. Probably 20-25 guys battling for position, very common to have major crashes on this course at that point, trying to pick the right point to jump, etc... etc.... but you are right, I did not win and let myself get boxed in. Working on that.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:



> One of my teammates has an SRM crank that he switches between his TT and Road bikes. Basically, he has the same BB installed on both of them and all he needs to do is remove the non-drive side crank arm to switch it from bike to bike.
> 
> Works fairly well for his purposes, and if I could afford one (or a Quark for that matter) I'd do the same thing


This is what I do with my Quark - works well


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_Not that they are nessary_

That's kind of my thinking...

I'm not against them, I just don't see the point. You still have to do the work, PMs are just another way of measuring and auditing that work, but it's the work that counts.

Anyway, I'm not here for the PM war, I'm sure it's been done to death..


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

olr1 said:


> _Not that they are nessary_
> 
> That's kind of my thinking...
> 
> ...


Not necessary to whom? 

Sure, you can train on rollers and a trainer and get some idea of performance improvement or regression, but how does one get info on the road? I was almost anti power meter last year because I was able to get some good info from my trainer in regards to the various gearings and intervals, but having done countless TTs under different weather conditions and adding some aero gear, it's honestly hard to say when I'm in better shape or if the conditions are simply easier/harder.


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## TampaUKfan (May 18, 2009)

So you are supposed to just go out and ride hard and hope you get better?

Using a Powermeter has taken my fitness to a level I didnt think I could achieve with heart rate based training.
With a Powermeter I know EXACTLY how hard I am working and I know the EXACT areas I need to work harder in. I also know what tactics to employ when in a racing or riding with stronger riders. 

When I was sick my heart rate was sky high on my rides, yet power was low.. If I had just been using a heart rate monitor I would think that I was ok and working out hard. When in reality I needed to take a few days off. 
Powermeters are the best thing that has happened to cycling and with Garmin now in the business it will make it affordable for everyone.




olr1 said:


> _Not that they are nessary_
> 
> That's kind of my thinking...
> 
> ...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

olr1 said:


> _Not that they are nessary_
> 
> That's kind of my thinking...
> 
> ...


your mis understanding what I mean by not mnessary - yes you still have to do the work but how are you measuring that? HR? That can work but it takes years to learn you HR drift to accuratly measure the effort your putting and even then it can be affected by so many things. Preceived exertion? Almost worthless to me. A power meter gives me something definative I can reference each time. If all the intervals need to be done at 400 watts+ then I know exactly what to shoot for each time. Now sure I could make a training plan not based on power but withe power I find I can get fit alot faster and I know exactly what marks I need to hit to achieve my work out.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_Sure, you can train on rollers and a trainer and get some idea of performance improvement or regression, but how does one get info on the road_

_yes you still have to do the work but how are you measuring that_


You see, this is why I don't see the point.

You are asking 'How on earth can we measure our improvements without a Powermeter?'

Um, well, given that you are training for competition, surely the way to measure improvement is in better results; better times in TTs, better results in RRs? You know, like all those racers who have gone before you, like all those racers who don't use PMs..

It's as if the training tool, the PM, takes on a significance way beyond it's original function, and the things ascribed to it are nothing short of wonderful; it's a tool, just a way of measuring stuff, not anything other than that.

As Sonomasnap eloquently reveals above; he sat in for a race then fluffed the sprint; he doesn't need a PM, he needs to learn to sprint.

As I said, I'm not against them, I just don't see the need, they produce another set of numbers to geek over, but you still have to do the work.

...and cycling competition is about so much more than watts per kilo.

Anyway, I appreciate I've pulled the thread off topic, and I'm not making any great contribution..


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## StevenG (Nov 19, 2005)

I am a new power meter user this year. Didn't spend a ton on it, with deal through bike shop sponsor and getting wired PT comp w/ open pro was around $500. I am amatuer rider with limited time to train 8-10 hrs/wk. I've really found the powertap to be very useful and with the WKO program a great tool for me and would not want to go forward without. I especially like the WKO performance manager graph, it is motivating trying to keep that blue line going up and when the fatigue line gets too high take it easy for a few days. I am more excited to do intervals and fast rides to see what kind of watts I can do that day. The only downside is those days when you can't hit the numbers I want and can be a little worrisome, but there is something to learn from that as well.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

olr1 said:


> _Sure, you can train on rollers and a trainer and get some idea of performance improvement or regression, but how does one get info on the road_
> 
> _yes you still have to do the work but how are you measuring that_
> 
> ...


Ok, do you even race? Fitness and placing do not always correlate. 

In a TT, weather is often the major variable, but using different equipment such as a deeper front whee, disc wheel, and aerodynamically enhanced (or so they say) skin suit. You can try to gauge yourself to other riders in a TT, but if a rival rider simply has an off day, it doesn't mean you're in better shape than the last event. 

In a mass start, there are entirely too many variables that can work in your favor or against you, almost regardless of condition. Somehow at my best fitness, I had gotten behind a crash or was too far back when the move was made. Hell, if you're a power sprinter and you struggle on a race with a climbing finish or if you're a climber and do mediocre in a sprint finish, what does that tell ya? Not much.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Thanks fella.
You've proved my point far more effectively than I ever could.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

olr1 said:


> Thanks fella.
> You've proved my point far more effectively than I ever could.


How so? I think you're the only one celebrating your imaginary victory. 

DO YOU RACE?


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

_DO YOU RACE?_

Hey, I'm old, but there's no need to shout.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

olr1 said:


> Hey, I'm old, but there's no need to shout.


You can't be so old that you forgot to answer the question.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm sorry sonny, you'll have to speak up...

No, ok, I'm hoping we can have a discussion about this rather than any pissing contest. 

I don't race at the moment, but have done for a number of years, starting off running marathons aged 16, then racing mountain bikes, then cyclocross, then more off-road running races, then road racing for a number of years in the UK and Europe. The only thing I never really did was time trialling; never found it attractive, couldn't afford another bike. Did a few prologues as part of stage races though.

I'm going to make an assumption; that you are how I was...

When HRMs came out I was an early adopter, same with turbo trainers, got the books, did the sweating in the garage, rode religiously to set heart rates.

I got beat.

I've been beaten by some of the best riders in the world, some who are riding as pros even now.

My not getting PMs stems from this; I did it all as well as I could, but got to a stage where the training tools became more important than the training, wearing a HM in races, trying to gauge my efforts accordingly; I've got diaries from 2000 onwards with infinite detail.

Eventually I realised that the races and the training is the real important bit, not how you measure it...

My fingers are tired now, I may need a lie down.....


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

olr1 said:


> I'm sorry sonny, you'll have to speak up...
> 
> No, ok, I'm hoping we can have a discussion about this rather than any pissing contest.
> 
> ...


the inability to use a tool effectively only makes it ineffective FOR YOU.


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## oroy38 (Apr 27, 2010)

The unit of measure is just as valuable as the training itself.

Speed and Time are perhaps the most unreliable methods, and require a much larger number of trials in order to produce an accurate visual of progress.

Power is easy to follow, convenient, and a great training measure because it focuses directly on what you're putting into the bike (watts), not the result of that (speed, heartrate, etc) . That way your measurements aren't altered by subtle variables like wind and such.

That kind of precision allows you to track precisely the level of effort at any given time.

Improvements in wattage mean a direct improvement in fitness.

On the other hand, improvements in average speed or time elapsed can be attributed to a number of factors unless compared to a large number of trials.

HR is the same way. It's subject to various metabolic processes and can be inaccurate unless compared to a large number of trials.

One day we'll be able to track the intensity of muscle contractions, energy used, and micronutrient levels, all in real time, and we'll be talking about how unreliable Power is.

Note: I don't train with power, I'm too poor. But, to be honest, if it came down to buying a new set of wheels or getting my current wheels set up with a PowerTap, I'd probably go with the PowerTap.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

I say if you are going to train with power it can be extremely beneficial to race with power, at least some of the time. 

Its been said before in this thread, a powermeter is currently the most accurate and efficient way to train. There are so many upsides to running a powermeter. You can tell if you are going hard enough, or too hard. If you dont want to look at your powermeter in training you can at least analyze the data when you get home to see if your Perceived Effort is where it needs to be. This is where even those who dont want to see anything during training can benefit from power. 

In a race it can be an awesome way to pace yourself, especially in a TT. My favorite use was to determine how hard to pull through while in a break away. I can limit how hard I go to make sure I am not the hardest working guy in the break by monitoring my power output. After the race I can analyze where I was weakest or strongest. 

I dont always recommend racing with your power visible. I find that when I need to push myself to my limit in a race, not having any distractions is extremely helpful. Looking down and seeing you power above 500 watts at the beginning of a climb can really psych you out. Other than situations like that there is really no downside to racing with power, unless you are giving up aero equipment (like a disk) in a TT. Even then just get a wheel cover and have the best of both worlds.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

olr1 said:


> _
> As Sonomasnap eloquently reveals above; he sat in for a race then fluffed the sprint; he doesn't need a PM, he needs to learn to sprint.
> 
> .._


_

Your logic is pretty flawed here. Sure, Sonomasnap may need to improve his positioning and sprinting ability, but how does that take away from what he gained by having the powermeter? 

He has the data from the race, so he can see exactly what power he was doing as he came to the line, and how that power affected his position. If he analyzes what he was doing at the time and improves upon that it could significantly improve his position in the field. 

Yes, he has to practice his positioning, but having a powermeter can only help with that (unless of course he is looking more at his PM rather than the people around him, which i really really doubt) 

Sonomasnap: Good job in that last race! Keep up the hard work and you will be winning those sprints soon! :thumbsup:_


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Agreed with the 3 above with the caveat that even a power meter has limits to what it can do. 

Back to the urination contest, I used to keep data on the bunches of TTs I'd do. It seemed like I had good info, but my local weather was not measuring the wind where I was riding, which is very exposed in many areas compared to the inner city readings. I know I could stand to benefit from being able to meter my efforts a little more consistently. 

Even with power meters, the rider needs to know what they can or can't do that given day.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

spade2you said:


> Even with power meters, the rider needs to know what they can or can't do that given day.



This is an extremely important point about training with power, and one that many who oppose power do not seem to understand. Having a power meter does not mean you should entirely discount perceived exertion. To really get the most benefit out of a PM you have to listen to your body as well as watching and responding to the number on the PM screen.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Interesting, but all a bit too evangelical for my liking, it also begs the question; how did we ever manage before?

I'll leave you guys to it, its 4am here and I've got two more nights yet to work.

Although, how about an intellectual challenge...

I'm foolishly riding the Tour of Flanders next year, the sportive, not the real thing. How would you use your powermeters to train for it?

I'll tell you my old fashioned way later.


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## chase196126 (Jan 4, 2008)

olr1 said:


> Interesting, but all a bit too evangelical for my liking, it also begs the question; how did we ever manage before?
> 
> I'll leave you guys to it, its 4am here and I've got two more nights yet to work.
> 
> ...


Your logic about "managing before" is simply put, flawed. 

Would you argue that there is no merit to using a Time trial bike and aero wheels just because riders of the past did not use them, yet still managed to win time trials? Just because Merckx won his TTs on a steel frame road bike doesnt mean he wouldnt have been significantly faster on a Cervelo with Zipp wheels. 

Do you really think that riders from the past would not have utilized a powermeter if they had been available? Just because riders were successful without powermeters does not in any way prove that a powermeter is not a more effective way to train. 

Since riders in the 60s and 70s were successful by riding huge volume with little intensity is the value of shorter structured interval training discounted? 

Must I go on? 

As for training for your sportive I would train for the efforts that the course requires, as well as basic threshold fitness. 2x20s at 95% of threshold to build baseline fitness, along with structured temp riding. As the even got closer do some 5 x 5 efforts at 110-115 % of threshold. While tapering for the event maybe some super high intensity 2-3 minute intervals to simulate the steep climbs in the Flanders course. 

Yes, you can argue that you could do the same thing off feel or heart rate, but the efforts will not be as precise and you will not be able to control your fatigue levels and taper as precisely and effectively.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm going to approach it in the following way; I'm good for 100-120 miles at the moment, not flat out racing at that distance, but then I'm old and frail...
I'm going to aim to work up to 140 miles, so 7-8 hour rides plus a series of shorter 20 mile circuits that include about 10 short climbs of up to 20%.

We shall see.

I'm aiming to finish and then drink a vast amount of beer, which I'm sure you'll agree will not require any power measurement at all...


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm going to approach it in the following way; I'm good for 100-120 miles at the moment, not flat out racing at that distance, but then I'm old and frail...
I'm going to aim to work up to 140 miles, so 7-8 hour rides plus a series of shorter 20 mile circuits that include about 10 short climbs of up to 20%.

We shall see.

I'm aiming to finish and then drink a vast amount of beer, which I'm sure you'll agree will not require any power measurement at all...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

olr1 said:


> I'm aiming to finish and then drink a vast amount of beer, which I'm sure you'll agree will not require any power measurement at all...


No it won't. Train better so you can set the goals higher. I know plenty of old guys who are still competitive. There's a guy in his 60's that's usually in the top 3 in the local time trials.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

olr1 said:


> I'm going to aim to work up to 140 miles, so 7-8 hour rides plus a series of shorter 20 mile circuits that include about 10 short climbs of up to 20%.


Here's the crux - I don't have the time to do 7-8 hour rides - I do however have the ability to use my power meter to do shorter intervals with a precise measurement to train myself for that even with shorter overall workouts. This is where a power meter is valuable to me and where I don't think it would be as easy to get the same effect without it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

chase196126 said:


> This is an extremely important point about training with power, and one that many who oppose power do not seem to understand. Having a power meter does not mean you should entirely discount perceived exertion. To really get the most benefit out of a PM you have to listen to your body as well as watching and responding to the number on the PM screen.


The mind of a cycist will never be obsolete to new hardware/software!  

To be honest, I'll admit I used to think a PM wasn't too valuable because I tend to have an extra spring in my step on race day that I can rarely duplicate during training or group rides. After adding a bunch of aero gear and somehow being faster during TTs despite a severe lack of riding, I decided it was time to stop guessing what kind of shape I'm in.


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## wfrogge (Mar 5, 2007)

olr1 said:


> I read a quote about this the other day;
> 
> Amateur cyclists using power meters is like employing an accountant to tell you how poor you are...



Its been about a year since I have posted here..... All I can say is


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