# Ion, Jake, CX???



## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

I have now finally decided on the style of bike that is right for me. Wanting to start longer road rides, commute to and from work, and still be able to take the kids on rails-to-trails I have decided on a Cyclecross and really like the 2012 Kona Jake. I am also considering the Trek Ion and Scott CX. Looks like I am in the same price range across the board. Sell me on them.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

spidr62 said:


> Sell me on them.


No. 

Go ride them. Buy your favorite. At this pricepoint, everything's going to be pretty comparable unless you run into a closeout or something.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> No.
> 
> Go ride them. Buy your favorite. At this pricepoint, everything's going to be pretty comparable unless you run into a closeout or something.


Tussah. Just trying to see if I am missing anything about them. I really like the Jake but may have an in with a family friend Trek dealer. Noticed the Jake is a 20 speed and Trek is a 10 though. Should this concern me?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Road drivetrains are often discussed in terms of the number of cogs on the cassette. It can be pretty confusing, because 10-speed is now an ambiguous expression that can refer to a current model mid- to high-end bike or a bike from the 1970s or early '80s. It's also not brilliantly expressive because you can have different numbers of chain rings. Road bikes most frequently have two chainrings, but some have three and some 'cross racers set theirs up with just one. In mountain bike circles, it's become a more common practice to give both the number of chain rings and the number of cogs. For example...

The '12 Jake has a 3x10 drivetrain. If you wanted to, you could express that as 30, but that forces whoever you're talking to to decipher you. And we may not be too far off from contemporary bikes having both 3x8 and 2x12 drivetrains, which will make things that extra bit more confusing.

A triple could be good for you, it gives you some lower gear ratios to start with. It was annoying for me.  I'm a fan of triples on my strict road and strict mountain bikes, but I race mine, and sometimes had problems with the chain coming off when I remounted after running barriers. On my road bike, the triple (3x10, for me) setup is kind of a "have my cake and eat it too" drivetrain. I get both a couple of really low gears for climbing steep grades and closely-spaced gears, which are nice when I'm riding at high effort or pacing someone else.

The Trek Ion for this year has a 2x10 drivetrain, so 20 speeds, although there's a ton of overlap so not that many that are usefully different from each other. It's a more serious drivetrain for a person with an interest in competing, but the bike ships with a mountain bike cassette. Out of the box, it'll feel like it has one less low gear than the Jake, although there's more room to go lower with the Jake, like if you wanted to pull your kids in a trailer up a hill, carry a load up a hill, climb hills off-road, not have to work so hard to get to the tops of things, or just stay in the saddle more during climbs.

Find out "your" price on the Trek, so you really know what you're comparing. Did you ride the bikes? If so, you can probably stop thinking about the Scott - focus on the bike that impressed you, and the one that might stretch your dollar, no reason to think about one that didn't grab you and costs more.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

Find out "your" price on the Trek said:


> Well I will get my price probably tomorrow. Trek seems to start out a lot higher price MSRP. Since I don't really understand components all yet, is there a reason for the price difference or are you paying for the Trek name? Trek Ion is more along price of Jake the Snake, about $600 more than the standard Jake.
> I really do like the standard Jake and it is more than I planned on spending so unless I get a steal on the Trek I don't see me getting it. Just wish I understood the components a little better.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

LOL, can't tell why the Trek's more expensive. I don't know SRAM's groups the way I know Shimano, so I'm not sure if Apex is supposed to compete with Tiagra or 105. That's often the biggest difference at this pricepoint, although sometimes there are significant differences among wheels, and the Ion's got a tapered head tube. Frankly, I prefer Shimano STI to DoubleTap, as far as shifters are concerned. I also think Shimano really got it right with their external bottom bracket design, which is good for how long the crank will last. That can be an expensive replacement, so it's nice that it's done right from the get-go.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> the Ion's got a tapered head tube.


Help me out, what is the tapered head tube and is it a good thing? I checked this bike out online and think you are talking about where the forks and handlebar attach to the frame, but could be way off. If I am right, they said this provides better response. School me a little on these terms. Thanks.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

A tapered head tube should be at the "bottom of the list" in terms of variables to consider when choosing your CX bike. Look at fit and components.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

A tapered head tube provides a little more opportunity for the engineers to design either a lighter or stiffer fork, and either lighten or stiffen the head tube/down tube interface and a lot more opportunity for marketing people to sell you things you don't need.

It also makes it a little harder to find a replacement headset if you kill the stock one. But not much, the headset people are getting good at reacting to the majors cramming new standards down their throats. It makes it more expensive to replace the fork.

The bike industry used to consist of a ton of small business that made frames, ordered forks from other small businesses, parts from somewhat larger businesses, and then assembled everything. Sometimes the end users did all the purchasing and assembly. It's moving more and more toward a product model, in which the end user buys a bike and doesn't try to change much about it. I think changing head tube/steerer/headset standards and changing bottom bracket standards are a part of that. I have a nice older (not very old. 1999) bike that's still my go-to for my on-road training or recreational rides and because of this slow drift, I can't move the build onto a contemporary frameset I was considering without having to replace the front derailleur and crank while I'm at it. If that was a bare frame, I'd have needed a new fork and headset too.

Don't worry about tapered head tube vs. not-tapered head tube. Just don't buy a bike thinking you might replace this or that after purchase - it gets harder and harder to make changes over time, so you're best off getting as close as you can to your desired spec right from the beginning. So far, the industry has managed not to screw up saddles and pedals, and they've stuck with the same tires for long enough to lull us into complacency, but they screwed up handlebars a few years ago and they seem to have enough of an allergy to standards to do that again at any time. Buy the bike as a complete product that you intend to fit immediately after purchase and then maintain for the life of the bike.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

Looks like it will be the 2012 Trek Ion CX for $1350. Pretty awesome deal I think.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Did you find out why it's more expensive? It still sounds like you're paying $250 more for it...


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

AndrwSwitch said:


> Did you find out why it's more expensive? It still sounds like you're paying $250 more for it...


Well it has SRAM Apex which are on the Shamino 105 level components based on what everyone is telling me and the Jake has Shamino Tigara one level down. Also, carbon fork.


Snufkin said:


> The 2012 Ion cx has a carbon fork, with alloy steerer.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I think the Tiagra 4600 is as good or better than Apex.

I have built and ridden both. Shimano is a better value imho.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tihsepa said:


> I think the Tiagra 4600 is as good or better than Apex.
> 
> I have built and ridden both. Shimano is a better value imho.


I agree on both points.

The new Tiagra 10 speed is said to be modeled after the previous generation 105 (5600) and (IMO/E) lives up to that claim. 

On the make/ model bikes I test rode, the Apex equipped bikes were ~$200 more. Based on performance/ function, I didn't see where the added cost was justified.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Shimano is still a juggernaut in the OEM space. SRAM simply can't compete at the pricepoint Shimano can sink to. That is why the SRAM bikes are usually a bit more expensive. It comes down to shifting ergonomics and style and seeing which one works best for you. Personally, I don't think I could ever go back to Shimano after riding DoubleTap for the past several years.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

Guess I will figure it out and since I am not use to any certain one just yet, I will adjust. Seems like there are different opinions and it comes down to personal pref.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

spidr62 said:


> Guess I will figure it out and since I am not use to any certain one just yet, I will adjust. Seems like there are different opinions and it comes down to personal pref.


Have you test ridden both shifting systems yet? The differences should be pretty apparent and you won't take long to decide on a preference.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

Tested both and could get use to either. Thought the double tape seemed pretty cool.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

*2012 Trek Ion CX*

Just picked it up. Love it. Can't wait to put some miles on it. Think someone might loose their job. $1350 out the door.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I think somebody did just fine at his job. :wink5:

But it should be a lot more fun than the hybrid you were thinking about.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

spidr62 said:


> Just picked it up. Love it. Can't wait to put some miles on it. Think someone might loose their job. $1350 out the door.


What?

Well at least you got a bike right.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

So, I've found that those pedals with the straps rub the tire when I turn. Is this a common thing with the strap ones? When I get a set of clip in pedals and shoes will my shoe rub as well? Seems like the plastic shoe guard just sticks out too far on these ones.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Does your toe rub, or just the plastic cage? If you're pedaling with the balls of your feet and your toes rub, that may still happen when you get cycling shoes. My cycling shoes are all a little shorter than my running or casual shoes, but not by all that much.

If it's just the cage, then yeah, the problem will go away.

If you're using 'cross tires, road tires will take care of the problem but IIRC you wanted to be able to use biggish tires. A lot of smaller cyclocross bikes have this problem - the designers are trying to keep a relatively short wheelbase and steep head angle. Stuffing in a bigger tire at the same time means things get a little crowded.

You only turn the wheel enough, relative to the frame, to cause a problem at low speeds. So it's not too big a deal at more normal road bike speeds.


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## spidr62 (Apr 16, 2012)

It is just the cage. If I use the pedals upside down I have no problem. Guess I will have to get som shoes and other pedals.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

You don't _have_ to do anything. Toe overlap is only a problem in practice when you're riding at very low speeds and really yanking the bars around.

Wait a couple weeks and see how you end up using the bike. I choose to use toe cages on my commuter because I'd just as soon not arrive at school wearing funny shoes. I kick my fenders when I'm track standing (badly) at the top of one hill waiting for the intersection to clear, but that's about it for any impact from having toe overlap, and it's really no big deal. I'd rather live with that than have to change shoes. I remember you wanted to do some commuting, and some casual riding.


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