# Sizing for Upgrading a Wheelset 23 C vs 28 C?



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

*Sizing for Upgrading a Wheelset*

Hi folks

I want to upgrade my road bike wheelset. Current bike has 700 x 23C tires on rims. I see an ad for Bontrager X Lites with 700 x 28 C tires on them. Is this the "wrong" rim size or simply a different tire size on rims compatible with my bike/tires? In other words, do 23C tires fit on a rim that currently has 28 C tires? I want to ride on 23Cs, so if I get the new rims, I plan to swap the 28C tires out. Can I buy these rims?


----------



## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

No
Simply different
Yes
Yes

(the wheels are fine). The 700 number on both tires means they both fit on a 700c rim. Make sure the new wheels are actually an upgrade for you though. Not saying they aren't but I don't think Bontrager X lites are super premium wheels.

For more than you ever wanted to know:

Measuring Bicycle Rim Sizes
Tire Sizing Systems


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks for very specifically answering the questions I asked. Just a few more.

I'm assuming anything referring to 26" or 29" doesn't apply to road bikes, is that correct?

The spindle thing on the back wheel that holds the cassette... I have a 9 speed now. The wheel I'm looking at is an 8 speed. This isn't a problem right? I just have to remove the 8 speed cassette and replace it with my 9 speed cassette?

Regarding my current wheels - there's no name on them and they are an unusual yellow/gold shiny colour (pretty ugly). Anything will be an improvement, at least cosmetically.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Just curious... what wheelset do you now have and can you link to the Bonty's you referred to??


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

armstrong said:


> Thanks for very specifically answering the questions I asked. Just a few more.
> 
> I'm assuming anything referring to 26" or 29" doesn't apply to road bikes, is that correct?


That's correct. Current road wheels are 700c.



armstrong said:


> The spindle thing on the back wheel that holds the cassette... I have a 9 speed now. The wheel I'm looking at is an 8 speed. This isn't a problem right? I just have to remove the 8 speed cassette and replace it with my 9 speed cassette?


The spindle thing is a freehub. The freehub and your cassette need to be compatible for your cassette to fit, so the answer is.. it depends.

Generally speaking, SRAM and Shimano cassettes are interchangeable, but not all. Find out what freehub the wleelset has (or what cassette is installed on it) before purchasing. 



armstrong said:


> Regarding my current wheels - there's no name on them and they are an unusual yellow/gold shiny colour (pretty ugly). *Anything will be an improvement, at least cosmetically*.


Maybe cosmetically, but some Bonty's aren't known for their reliability. If the one's you're considering have paired spokes, I advise you take a pass.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Ad is here. I've got an old yellow Schwinn fastback from the early 2000s with alloy rims coloured yellow. The shiny yellow rims just kinda makes it look old. The bike itself is pretty unridden (NOS).Bontrager Race X Lite Clincher Wheelset + tubes tires cassette - City of Toronto Bikes For Sale - Kijiji City of Toronto Canada.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

A few more questions/suggestions: \

Why do you want 23mm tires? Unless you're very lightweight, most people would recommend the slightly larger 25, allowing lower pressure for better comfort and handling.

Why those particular wheels? Those paired-spoke wheels are kind of a gimmick, and have some disadvantages (go way out of true if a spoke breaks) and few advantages. You might better off looking for more conventional wheels.

Why pay for a wheelset that includes parts you're going to throw away or try to sell? This deal includes tires you don't want and a cassette you don't want.

I'd keep shopping.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

armstrong said:


> Ad is here. I've got an old yellow Schwinn fastback from the early 2000s with alloy rims coloured yellow. The shiny yellow rims just kinda makes it look old. The bike itself is pretty unridden (NOS).Bontrager Race X Lite Clincher Wheelset + tubes tires cassette - City of Toronto Bikes For Sale - Kijiji City of Toronto Canada.


I would advise (more, urge) you to pass on that wheelset. Bonty paired spoke wheels have known problems with cracking rims (around the spoke holes). I think Trek got so tired of warrantying them (which won't be an option for you) that they went back to a more traditional design.

If you're hellbent on replacing your current wheels, look elsewhere, but (as with any upgrade) make sure your criteria for doing so is sound.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

>Why do you want 23mm tires? 

My bike now has 23 mm tires so I figured I'd just stay with what I have. I'm not familiar with anything else. (I'm pretty light though, 135 lbs).

>Why those particular wheels? 

I told a friend who's knowledgeable in cycling that I wanted a new wheelset, and he said getting those wheels for $200 would be a steal (he probably didn't have any other information about the listing other than what is there). I googled Ebay for the same wheelset, and they all seem to go for $400++, so I thought if I got it for $200 it would be a good deal. Cheap wheelsets (say ~$200) are uncommon here in Toronto.

I'll "keep looking" but I really don't like the look of my bike now (it looks its 10 years even though its unridden - because of the wheels). I put a brand new wheel on the front the other day (all black R500) and it gave the bike a much more better look - so it is a bit of a plan of mine to get new wheels.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Like, I think these are the same wheels on ebay.

Bontrager Race x Lite Wheelset with Skewers Tires and Tubes | eBay

Bontrager Race x Lite Bladed Paired Spoke DT Swiss 700 C Wheel Set Pro II Tires | eBay

Bontrager x Lite Lite 26in Wheelset New | eBay

All $$$, so I thought if I could get those for $200, it would be a "good" deal.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

armstrong said:


> ... I thought if I could get those for $200, it would be a "good" deal.


It's your money and your choice, but I'm telling you the truth about Bonty paired spoke wheelsets. 

People put all kinds of prices on all kinds of stuff they want to unload to unsuspecting souls. One reason I hate ebay, but it's prevalent everywhere. 

Let the buyer beware....


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

700c /29 inch / ISO 622 Bicycle Wheels from Harris Cyclery


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Another good choice, IMO:
Mavic CXP22 + Shimano 2200


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

PJ352 said:


> It's your money and your choice, but I'm telling you the truth about Bonty paired spoke wheelsets.


I'm not "doubting" you or any of the advice anyone has given on this forum. I find the level of expertise and willingness to assist neophytes outstanding on this forum. I was just trying to explain the specific reasons why I was interested in those wheels; I wasn't trying to explain why they were a "good buy" for me.

I've decided to pass on these. Just curious - paired spokes - are the wheels in this ad considered "paired spokes" as well? Or just the parallel-type found in the Bonty's? And if so, are all paired spoke styles now out of vogue? (I'm not considering these wheels, just asking.)

Shimano wheel set - City of Toronto Bikes For Sale - Kijiji City of Toronto Canada.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

armstrong said:


> I'm not "doubting" you or any of the advice anyone has given on this forum. I find the level of expertise and willingness to assist neophytes outstanding on this forum. I was just trying to explain the specific reasons why I was interested in those wheels; I wasn't trying to explain why they were a "good buy" for me.


Gotcha.. 



armstrong said:


> I've decided to pass on these. Just curious - paired spokes - are the wheels in this ad considered "paired spokes" as well? Or just the parallel-type found in the Bonty's? And if so, are all paired spoke styles now out of vogue? (I'm not considering these wheels, just asking.)
> 
> Shimano wheel set - City of Toronto Bikes For Sale - Kijiji City of Toronto Canada.


Those are paired spokes as well. That's not to say all paired spoke wheelsets are problematic, but (coincidentally) Shimano's had some problems along the way as well.

It's unfortunate, but aesthetics/ style/ bling sometimes trumps good design, and oftentimes durability suffers. While I fully understand you wanting to like the looks of your bike, try to find a balance between aesthetics and a design that'll offer a level of durability.

When shopping for wheelsets, consider rider weight, tire size, road conditions and riding style, keeping in mind that lighter/ less materials. lower spoke count generally hurts durability.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Hi folks

I've decided I want Italian-branded wheels for my road bike (Cinelli) and have looked at them new online. I checked out this site: 

Road Wheels | ProBikeKit Canada

There's two "inexpensive" campy wheels but both seem to have those paired (tripped?) spoke arrangements. Should I avoid these? There doesn't seem to be any other low-end italian options available.
Campagnolo Khamsin Cyclocross Wheelset - Clincher Sports & Leisure | ProBikeKit Canada

Campagnolo Vento Reaction Wheelset Sports & Leisure | ProBikeKit Canada


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

And the Khamsin model is "cyclocross". Does that matter to me? Khamsin gets a much better review (4.5 stars) than Vento (2 stars) on bike radar. Based on that I'd probably go with Khamsin, but what is cyclocross?


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

more information on Campy wheels is here Wheels - MEDIUM PROFILE - Campagnolo - The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling

Campy wheels generally have an excellent reputation for quality and durability.

BUT, Unless otherwise stated Campy wheels have Campy freehubs and only accept Campy cassettes. So if you are looking for Shimano compatible wheels, these won't work (at least not without buying a Campy cassette followed by some fudging workarounds that we don't need to go into).

No idea why they would label the Khamsin as "cyclocross" other than they are cheap. Cyclocross racing is a form of offroad racing performed by masochists in Sept-Nov.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm confused. Earlier on you said this 



> I've got an old yellow Schwinn fastback from the early 2000s with alloy rims coloured yellow.


Now it's a Cinelli?



> I've decided I want Italian-branded wheels for my road bike (Cinelli)


With a shimano 9-speed setup currently?

More info is always useful.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> No idea why they would label the Khamsin as "cyclocross" other than they are cheap.


The Khamsins linked by the OP come with extra seals in the hubs. For the OP: a little more friction drag (not noticeable when you ride), but better water- and mud protection.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

wim said:


> The Khamsins linked by the OP come with extra seals in the hubs. For the OP: a little more friction drag (not noticeable when you ride), but better water- and mud protection.


Did not know that. Did a double check of the Campy catalog and tech doc. They certainly don't make it obvious. But that's Campy sometimes.

Probably all irrelevant for the OP, who we think wants Shimano compatible wheels, although even that is uncertain.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> Did not know that.


I didn't either. And I'm just parroting the probikekit.ca marketing hype at the link provided by the OP. Under "Description."


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

wim said:


> I didn't either. And I'm just parroting the probikekit.ca marketing hype at the link provided by the OP. Under "Description."


You are right. Campy have a "cyclocross" section on their wheels site Wheels - CX - Campagnolo - The official Campagnolo web site - Bicycle Parts and Components Cycling. I'd missed it. They are more correctly called "Kahmsin CX" Live and learn.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

OK - so I have 2 bikes. A cinelli with brand-new R500 and a Schwinn with ugly yellow alloy rims.

I think the R500s are "lower tier" than the bike (almost full ultegra). Those rims seem to match better with the Schwinn (full tiagra). So it occurred to me the better option would be to upgrade the cinelli, and hand-me-down the R500s to the Schwinn. So i'm looking at changing the cinelli wheels. hopefully that explains everything.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

armstrong said:


> OK - so I have 2 bikes. A cinelli with brand-new R500 and a Schwinn with ugly yellow alloy rims.
> 
> I think the R500s are "lower tier" than the bike (almost full ultegra). Those rims seem to match better with the Schwinn (full tiagra). So it occurred to me the better option would be to upgrade the cinelli, and hand-me-down the R500s to the Schwinn. So i'm looking at changing the cinelli wheels. hopefully that explains everything.


Those Khamsin wheels are only compatible w/ Campy cassettes and you have Shimano. It won't work unless you want to start adding bits and pieces to your rear derailleur to make it work w/ Shimano spacing.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

OK so that's not an option for me. (thanks for letting me know)

I think I'll just use the wheels I have for now and wait for wheels that are within my budget that will fit what I'm looking for. I think for low-200s I can get lightly-used ultegra hubs with mavic open-pro (some guy was selling that over the weekend but had it sold within the day). Otherwise I can go a little higher if something really excites me, but I probably won't exceed 300. I don't think I can get the caliber of wheel I want with the budget I have if I buy new.


----------



## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Those Khamsin wheels are only compatible w/ Campy cassettes and you have Shimano. It won't work unless you want to start adding bits and pieces to your rear derailleur to make it work w/ Shimano spacing.


IIRC, fulcrum racing freehub bodies are plug and play with campagnolo hubs--but I don't see the point of that. 

I too would avoid the paired spoke bonties. 

OP, by "italian" are you going by the name on the decal? or you want it made by an italian company (probably assembled in asia somewhere, but still technically "italian")"? I'm not sure any Italian companies make wheels and "look" especially italian outside of campagnolo. And campagnolo wheels on a shimano group bike would confuse lots of people--almost like a honda badge on a toyota. If you don't care about that, campagnolo makes great wheels. 

Campagnolo also makes Fulcrum wheels, they're a solid set of offerings over a wide swath of price points and are compatible with shimano out of the box. seems to me that finding a set of used Fulcrum Racing 7's on craigslist for $200 or less shouldn't be hard.

ribble has good pricing on factory wheelsets but you'll also have to pay $50-70 in shipping. Still lower than US MSRP though.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

OK - bit of an update. Kinda embarassed about this but I thought I should get some advice from you guys to better understand the situation I'm in.

The yellow Schwinn - I was fiddling around with it last night (put my SPDs on the shoes for the first time and clicked in) when I noticed the front wheel had a spoke that was way way loose. Like, it was so loose it was basically falling out of the eyelet on its own. I noticed I could turn the cylinder thingy that goes in the eyelet and tighten the spoke. I noticed another spoke was the same, so I tightened that one too. So as smart as I am, I thought the spokes should all be tightened (it was an old bike and I assumed out of a state of repair, which it probably is). So I went about with a wrench and "finger tightened" all the spokes by turning that little rectangular cylinder thing. When I was done, I realized the wheel was massively out-of-true. I'm not sure if what I did CAUSED it to go out of true (cause the bike was travelled around and its wheel removed etc. in the last week) but I don't think anything else would've made it go out of true. I immediately "loosened" the cylinders and the wheel remains out of true. So my question...

I was planning on just keeping the wheels I have and if something came along that would fit nicely with my Cinelli, then I'd get it and pass the R500s down to the Schwinn. Under that plan, I really had no specific timeframe or urgency to get new wheels.

Now - I can't even ride my Schwinn (which is the bike I plan to use more) unless I get this wheel fixed. I know without seeing the wheel, it might be hard for you guys to opine, but is it worth fixing this or is the wheel shot? Would it be more efficient for me to just upgrade the Cinelli wheels now and basically ditch the yellow alloys? Or is what I did "minor" and can be fixed by the LBS with minimal financial cost? If its costly to fix, then I'd rather put that money towards the new wheelset. I had thought, that if I got a new wheelset for the Cinelli, I'd be able to sell of the yellow alloys for some amount of money (it has reinforced eyelets and bladed spokes), but given their current out-of-true state, they would be unsellable. Like - would the repair cost be MORE than what I could sell them for? If so, I'd be better off just buying new wheels. The only disadvantage of this, is as I said in earlier posts, is that I was willing to wait for the right wheels to come along. If I decide I need wheels NOW (because I don't have a bike to ride), I'll probably not find the exact deal I was hoping to find.

No matter what, both bikes are going to the LBS to sort everything out and get tuned-up, but I thought if I was planning on doing wheel/cassette swapping, I would want everything (like new wheels) with me upfront, so I wouldn't have to make multiple visits to fix multiple problems.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

Another question.

If you guys had $225 spend, would you buy new wheels that cost $225 (and have a retail/quality "worth" of that amount), or lightly-used wheels that had a retail worth/quality of $400 when it was brand new? Assume the used wheels are true (if that's fair to assume).


----------



## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

armstrong said:


> OK - bit of an update. Kinda embarassed about this but I thought I should get some advice from you guys to better understand the situation I'm in.
> 
> The yellow Schwinn - I was fiddling around with it last night (put my SPDs on the shoes for the first time and clicked in) when I noticed the front wheel had a spoke that was way way loose. Like, it was so loose it was basically falling out of the eyelet on its own. I noticed I could turn the cylinder thingy that goes in the eyelet and tighten the spoke. I noticed another spoke was the same, so I tightened that one too. So as smart as I am, I thought the spokes should all be tightened (it was an old bike and I assumed out of a state of repair, which it probably is). So I went about with a wrench and "finger tightened" all the spokes by turning that little rectangular cylinder thing. When I was done, I realized the wheel was massively out-of-true. I'm not sure if what I did CAUSED it to go out of true (cause the bike was travelled around and its wheel removed etc. in the last week) but I don't think anything else would've made it go out of true. I immediately "loosened" the cylinders and the wheel remains out of true. So my question...
> 
> ...


The wheel is certainly repairable, it just needs to be trued. I would go ahead and get a spoke wrench and start looking up the process for truing wheels, since it's a useful skill. Aside from the wrench, you don't need any special equipment like a truing stand, which is nice, but not necessary. If you had 2 spokes with zero tension on them, and the wheel was already true, then that wheelset needed to be re-tensioned anyway. It just needs to be retensioned in a way that the wheel will be true with even spoke tension all around. 



armstrong said:


> Another question.
> 
> If you guys had $225 spend, would you buy new wheels that cost $225 (and have a retail/quality "worth" of that amount), or lightly-used wheels that had a retail worth/quality of $400 when it was brand new? Assume the used wheels are true (if that's fair to assume).


I'd rather buy used wheels. they're certainly durable items, as long as they're true (enough) and haven't sustained fatal damage; and have enough brake track--which shouldn't be a concern with lightly used wheels.


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

charlox5 said:


> The wheel is certainly repairable, it just needs to be trued. I would go ahead and get a spoke wrench and start looking up the process for truing wheels, since it's a useful skill.


Thanks. This is good advice. Are wrenches specific to a company or will "any" spoke wrench work. I have no idea who made my wheels (Schwinn?). Will this work for me or is it specific to Mavic?

Mavic Tools - Oshawa / Durham Region Bikes For Sale - Kijiji Oshawa / Durham Region Canada.



charlox5 said:


> I'd rather buy used wheels. they're certainly durable items, as long as they're true (enough) and haven't sustained fatal damage; and have enough brake track--which shouldn't be a concern with lightly used wheels.


Thanks - this is a helpful perspective too.

I managed to spin around the block after lunch for about 20 mins. It occurred to me I could use the front wheel of the Cinelli on the Schwinn - and I took it for a ride (still can't ride the Cinelli yet cause I haven't got cleats for SPD SL yet). First time locked into a bike in 13 years. Nice feeling - forgot how much I love cycling. I've decided to get everything right equipment-wise eventually.


----------



## drussell (Aug 6, 2010)

armstrong said:


> Thanks. This is good advice. Are wrenches specific to a company or will "any" spoke wrench work. I have no idea who made my wheels (Schwinn?). Will this work for me or is it specific to Mavic?
> 
> Mavic Tools - Oshawa / Durham Region Bikes For Sale - Kijiji Oshawa / Durham Region Canada.
> 
> ...


Any spoke wrench will work, as long as it is the proper size for the nipple (just like using a proper sized socket on a bolt). I've got a couple of the Park Tool ones (the SW1, 2 and 3, IIRC) for different wheels on different bikes, and quite like them. If you just need 1, I'd go with a new one of those - they're cheaper than the tools in the ad you're looking at.

One other thing you'll need is a bit of patience when doing it the first time - I find wheel truing to be a bit of a "zen" activity. Go slow when starting out, make small adjustments (less than 1/4 turn), and think your way through it.

edit...forgot to add, get a good guide for it as well. Park Tool (again) is a good place to start.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

That Mavic wrench is completely wrong. 

Since you are in Toronto, I'd suggest you try one of the self-help bike places. Bikepirates. U of T etc. Even your LBS should be able to tell you what kind of spoke wrench you need.

You need a lot of help.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Reading through this thread, I'm gonna buck the buy used/ do it yourself trend and suggest that if you want to get the Schwinn wheelset 'road ready', bite the bullet and bring (at least the out of true wheel) to your LBS for truing. One of the shops in my area charges around $25 for both, but prices can vary by region.

Re: buying used, unless you know what to look for (and more importantly, look out for) I suggest going with a new wheelset. You can get a decent set for around $250+/- (two suggestions offered previously) and here's another:
Vuelta Corsa Lite Road Wheelset - Road Bike Wheels / Wheelsets


----------



## armstrong (Jul 9, 2013)

>Reading through this thread, I'm gonna buck the buy used/ do it yourself trend and suggest that if you want to get the Schwinn wheelset 'road ready', bite the bullet and bring (at least the out of true wheel) to your LBS for truing. One of the shops in my area charges around $25 for both, but prices can vary by region.

I agree with this and will take the wheel into the shop to be trued.

Regarding buying used wheels... Can anyone give a few rules of thumb for what to look for and what to look out for? I've decided on getting Ultegra wheels (aiming for 6600), but buying them separately (folks on occasion seem to have either the front or back wheel for sale separately, and they seem to overall be priced a lot cheaper since its missing the other half). I figure I can get them one at a time since I have no time frame to getting these wheels, so I'll be able to get them both for probably under 250 (while a used pair would usually run over 350). So any hints on buying used wheels would be helpful. Thanks.


----------



## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

armstrong said:


> >Regarding buying used wheels... Can anyone give a few rules of thumb for what to look for and what to look out for? I've decided on getting Ultegra wheels (aiming for 6600), but buying them separately (folks on occasion seem to have either the front or back wheel for sale separately, and they seem to overall be priced a lot cheaper since its missing the other half). I figure I can get them one at a time since I have no time frame to getting these wheels, so I'll be able to get them both for probably under 250 (while a used pair would usually run over 350). So any hints on buying used wheels would be helpful. Thanks.


Wheels will wear through normal use, and much more so when used in bad weather. In addition to normal wear, they can become damaged through hitting things.

So, you are looking at wear on the rim's brake track, wear on bearings, play, rim damage, internal corrosion, out of round, out of true, poor spoke tension etc.

If you feel comfortable assessing these things, then look at used wheels, otherwise remember a nice new set can be had for about $300 following the suggestions earlier.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

armstrong said:


> I've decided on getting Ultegra wheels (*aiming for 6600*)


I suggest avoiding the 6600's if at all possible. They, too, have had their share of problems and warranty claims. The newer version (6700) are MUCH better.

Add me to the 'buy new' for wheelsets. As was stated, they're wearable items, so buying used (IMO) isn't worth the gamble for the money you _may_ save.


----------

