# Wanted - recommendation for a very nice Ti road bike.



## jvj (Jan 28, 2010)

What manufacturer do you recommend?

Thank you for your help.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Moots, Form, IF, Eriksen, Blacksheep, Strong, Baum etc etc.
Cannot go too wrong with any of the above IMO.

Lots of similar threads if you search.


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## carveitup (Oct 25, 2008)

Seven, Serotta, Lynskey, Merlin


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

Passoni


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

Buy this one and ride it until your custom Ti frame is completed. Then you can transfer the components over.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Kish would be another very good one, as well as Bill Holland and Serotta. Dean is decent as well.

I think I would go Lynskey Helix if I wanted something different, or Eriksen if I wanted something classy. I have an older Merlin Extralight, so I don't have a reason to ever buy an new ti bike (or bike, for that matter).


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

If I could pluck up the nerve to announce to my Mrs that I'd like a new frame - a Ti one - I'd be getting a Steve Potts. Oooh yeah.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

rward325 said:


> Buy this one and ride it until your custom Ti frame is completed. Then you can transfer the components over.


Thanks for the recommendation
I can tell you lots of buyers of Motobecane Ti bikes are shocked by the frame quality and ride

Many owners compare directly to frames costing more than complete Moto Ti bikes and find they prefer the Motobecane


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## bike_guy (Mar 26, 2002)

Can't believe no one mentioned Pride


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## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

Moots, Eriksen, Strong

Not in the same breath as Pride


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

I've been eyeballing this one. www.bikesoul.com


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## orthobiker (Oct 12, 2007)

*Ti Bike*

Kent Eriksen... Great to work with, fast service, and will build complete bike at a reasonable price. Quality is as good as there is.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

frdfandc said:


> I've been eyeballing this one. www.ridesoul.com


I have one of Sean's bikes, custom ti. Really like it.

If money was no object, I'd probably go with Strong or Black Sheep.


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## louise (May 24, 2010)

Guru or Marinoni.

Custom Ti delivered in 4 weeks.


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> If I could pluck up the nerve to announce to my Mrs that I'd like a new frame - a Ti one - I'd be getting a Steve Potts. Oooh yeah.


Great call on the Potts. Kish or Crisp would be second choices.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

pigpen said:


> Great call on the Potts.


What I like is his re-enforced seat collar area. He says this in his blog about the insert - 

"_This makes the seat tube go from .035" wall thickness to approximately .078" wall thickness in the seat tube pinch area that is 3.250" long. This is all done to make the seat tube pinch area as strong as it needs to be to clamp the seat post properly, while keeping the rest of the seat tube as light as possible, basically putting the metal where it needs to be. _"

Here is the insert, shown upside down and the insert welded into the seat tube. He does this on all hist frames plus the Castellano Silk-Ti frames that he builds -


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> What I like is his re-enforced seat collar area. He says this in his blog about the insert -
> 
> "_This makes the seat tube go from .035" wall thickness to approximately .078" wall thickness in the seat tube pinch area that is 3.250" long. This is all done to make the seat tube pinch area as strong as it needs to be to clamp the seat post properly, while keeping the rest of the seat tube as light as possible, basically putting the metal where it needs to be. _"
> 
> Here is the insert, shown upside down and the insert welded into the seat tube. He does this on all hist frames plus the Castellano Silk-Ti frames that he builds -


Pretty much everyone's seat tube area is around .078" thickness. The normal way to do this is to bond in a (usually) titanium sleave to bring the inner diameter down to 27.2 (or whatever). This method works well and is seemless (you can't tell how it's done looking at the top of the seat tube after facing). Potts has found another way of doing it, but to my mind it isn't an improvement to add another heat cycle and mid tube span weld when a bonded ti sleave achieves the same end with considerably less labor and risk. For me, it is a turn off, both in its engineering and aesthetics.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

louise said:


> Guru or Marinoni.


Who builds them for Marinoni?


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

for ti nothing comes close to Eriksen


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

jermso said:


> for ti nothing comes close to Eriksen


*Nothing* comes *close*? That's quite a statement jerm. How much better can they be than the rest of the N.Am Ti frames?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

jermso said:


> for ti nothing comes close to Eriksen


Me thinks that you need to have a look around.
I would take a Baum over Eriksen ANY day.
I have said this before and I will say it again.
Baum is the ONLY other builder that I would sell my Moots for.


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> What I like is his re-enforced seat collar area. He says this in his blog about the insert -
> 
> "_This makes the seat tube go from .035" wall thickness to approximately .078" wall thickness in the seat tube pinch area that is 3.250" long. This is all done to make the seat tube pinch area as strong as it needs to be to clamp the seat post properly, while keeping the rest of the seat tube as light as possible, basically putting the metal where it needs to be. _"
> 
> Here is the insert, shown upside down and the insert welded into the seat tube. He does this on all hist frames plus the Castellano Silk-Ti frames that he builds -


Moots does it too.


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## gnatman (Jan 14, 2009)

The OP didn't mention budget...I have a Dean made Ti frame....very nice and generally more affordable than some of the other brands, especially if one of the stock sizes fits.


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## orangeclymer (Aug 18, 2009)

Out of pure curiosity what sets these custom builders apart from one another?? is it the welds? frameset weight? turn around time accompanied with follow up service? WTHeck is it??


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## erol/frost (May 30, 2004)

Steve Potts

BlackSheep

Moots

Seven

And lots of other builders. When going custom it`s all about fit and how well you can communicate how you ride and what you want to the builder


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

My opinion is the best you can do is to find a builder you can sit down with, who knows what they are talking about and build a bike that not only fits you but rides how you want it to. Go local.
The best guy I know in your area is Brent Steelman. http://www.steelmancycles.com He's been doing this for quite awhile and does fantastic work. While he doesn't work in Ti, he does work with Columbus XCR, which is stainless steel. Some would argue it has the same benefits of Ti with corrosion resistance, impact resistance, etc... but with more of the classic road feel of steel.
Then again I'm biased since I have a Reynolds 953 stainless steel bike.
Another great option for Ti is Ken DeSalvo http://www.desalvocycles.com/ He's up in Portland Or. Ken's one of the best builders in the business, and is a great value. Interestingly he also builds a fair share of Vanilla bikes for them. He's very, very good at what he does and is pretty low on the radar. he also doesn't have a 3yr waiting list like Vanilla.
I'd also vote for Eriksen and IF (although pretty seriously over-priced IF is a co-op and does things like give employee's health benefits and a retirement plan, which is worth supporting)


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

poff said:


> Moots does it too.


Then tell 'em to quit as *rx-79g* doesn't like them!


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## Dumbod (Dec 31, 2004)

The OP didn't indicate that s/he wanted to go custom. I love my Ti bikes but the best place to buy them is used. Ti is out of fashion so the bikes lose their resale value pretty quickly but the stuff is pretty much indestructible so you don't have to worry as much about wear and tear as you would with other materials.

Spend a little time on ebay and you'll find some GREAT deals.


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## Eben (Feb 6, 2005)

DeSalvo is a great builder, I have seen a number of his frames in both Steel and Ti and they were all beautiful with very happy owners. I should note that he's in Ashland, OR which is a good deal closer to the OP than Portland.

If the OP does want custom, and meeting with the builder is important, SyCip is in Santa Rosa and does some titanium as well. Of course, Potts is Point Reyes.


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## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

gnatman said:


> The OP didn't mention budget...I have a Dean made Ti frame....very nice and generally more affordable than some of the other brands, especially if one of the stock sizes fits.


Do a little research......


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

I've owned several ti road bikes (Litespeed, Merlin, Seven) and currently have a Kish cross tourer, Serotta cross and a Lynskey Cooper CX for my wife. Quality wise, they are all very similar and there are certain features that are unique (Seven has relatively high bb, Merlin had straight gauge tubing).

If you want an all custom, Serotta (Classique ti) or Jim Kish would be great. Having a few custom bikes, I would recommend someone local for your first. Nevertheless, I worked with Jim on this bike through phone and email and he was terrific.

I got my wife a Lynskey Cooper CX as a "budget" ti and it came out nice.

Here's pics of the bikes:


















Pics of the Seven and other Serotta Ti/Carbon:
*https://racerx.zenfolio.com/p647572513*


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

If it's me, and I want Ti.....here is the order I go in:

1.) Spectrum. I'd go the whole 9 yards and go to the Barn and have Tom Kellogg do the fit and design the bike. I'd also work with him on the paint. One time experience not to be missed from people that have done it.

2.) Erikson. Everything that used to be Moots.

3.) Serotta. I've had a Ti Bike custom from Serotta...it was awesome.

4.) Roark. Thier customer service and attention is awesome....PM JustTooBig. for personal experiencs.

Not much seperating these 4 IMO....so my order is just about my own desires.

YMMV

Len


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

veloduffer,
What bars are on your bikes?


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## rcekstrom (Oct 4, 2008)

I cant afford Erikson's bikes right now or even begin to describe how I want a custom bike to feel custom for me, but looking on his site the water bottles are cool.:thumbsup:


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

FTR said:


> veloduffer,
> What bars are on your bikes?


On the Kish, Zipp Contour SL (carbon); on the Serotta, 3TTT Ergosum (alloy). Even though the Serotta has bar-end shifters, I placed the cables under the h-bar tape for a clean look. It requires very long housing, like for a tandem.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

veloduffer said:


> On the Kish, Zipp Contour SL (carbon); on the Serotta, 3TTT Ergosum (alloy). Even though the Serotta has bar-end shifters, I placed the cables under the h-bar tape for a clean look. It requires very long housing, like for a tandem.


Thanks for the answer.
They look fairly similar to each other in shape to me.
Do you agree that they are fairly similar?
I have been looking to get a bar that is slightly shallower than what I currently have on my Moots (Pro PLT traditional shape).


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

poff said:


> Moots does it too.


Really? Can't see any weld in the seat tube.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> Really? Can't see any weld in the seat tube.


Mine does.
Just where the chainstays and seat tube meet.
It is very feint but it is there.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

FTR said:


> Mine does.
> Just where the chainstays and seat tube meet.
> It is very feint but it is there.


Cool. Can you snap a pic for us? Poster rx-79g isn't too thrilled about this method of butting the top of the seat tube. I e-mailed Steve Potts today to see if he had an opinion why his method is better than other types. I would think that if the method isn't any good then builders with the experience of Steve Potts and Moots would have changed for the better eons ago. I'll post his answer if he provides one.


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

FTR said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> They look fairly similar to each other in shape to me.
> Do you agree that they are fairly similar?
> I have been looking to get a bar that is slightly shallower than what I currently have on my Moots (Pro PLT traditional shape).



They are very similar and they are curved, rather than ergo bend. They have the same drop 128 and reach 185. But the 3TTT is longer at the bottom of the bar.

I found that the shallow drop bars are easier to ride in for longer periods than the traditional drops. But that's partly because I'm getting older and not as flexible.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Cool. Can you snap a pic for us? Poster rx-79g isn't too thrilled about this method of butting the top of the seat tube. I e-mailed Steve Potts today to see if he had an opinion why his method is better than other types. I would think that if the method isn't any good then builders with the experience of Steve Potts and Moots would have changed for the better eons ago. I'll post his answer if he provides one.


Well I think this is what you are talking about anyway:
Bad pic taken in a hurry but you can see a horizontal 'weld" there.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

veloduffer said:


> They are very similar and they are curved, rather than ergo bend. They have the same drop 128 and reach 185. But the 3TTT is longer at the bottom of the bar.
> 
> I found that the shallow drop bars are easier to ride in for longer periods than the traditional drops. But that's partly because I'm getting older and not as flexible.


Thanks again.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

That will be it. Thanks. The Potts weld is just a little lower.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Anyway, with a competent builder, the bottom line is: he needs to understand what exactly you need and want.

- do you want comfortable, stiff, agile, stabile, etc ...

Then he can pick the right tubing and geometry details.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

frdfandc said:


> I've been eyeballing this one. www.ridesoul.com


Are you sure you didn't mean:
http://bikesoul.com/2009/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32&Itemid=41
from http://bikesoul.com/

...or is it the same thing?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

FTR said:


> Well I think this is what you are talking about anyway:
> Bad pic taken in a hurry but you can see a horizontal 'weld" there.


I got an answer and a pic from Steve Potts about his seat tube insert. Here it is -

_"If I am using a 1.375" x .035" seat tube, I reinforce the pinch area at the top of the seat tube 3.250" to .0795" wall thickness. The collar I use is forced in as an interference fit approximately .005" over and it is engaged .500" into the seat tube. The part that is forced in is tapered to .007" over the whole .500" area to reduce any straight line concentration at the welding joint. It is virtually impossible to get the collar back out of the tube after pressing it in but it is fusion welded all the way around. 
There is almost no stress on the weld joint at this point because of the .500" interference fit and the taper. After welding, the seat tube is not reamed, it is machined - line bored with a single point carbide cutter to insure 360 degree contact, clean and totally free of any welding distortion seat tube."_


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> I got an answer and a pic from Steve Potts about his seat tube insert. Here it is -
> 
> _"If I am using a 1.375" x .035" seat tube, I reinforce the pinch area at the top of the seat tube 3.250" to .0795" wall thickness. The collar I use is forced in as an interference fit approximately .005" over and it is engaged .500" into the seat tube. The part that is forced in is tapered to .007" over the whole .500" area to reduce any straight line concentration at the welding joint. It is virtually impossible to get the collar back out of the tube after pressing it in but it is fusion welded all the way around.
> There is almost no stress on the weld joint at this point because of the .500" interference fit and the taper. After welding, the seat tube is not reamed, it is machined - line bored with a single point carbide cutter to insure 360 degree contact, clean and totally free of any welding distortion seat tube."_


Not really a for or against, but I would bet he's doing it that way to have a bigger piece of metal to weld the pinch, seatstays and top tube to. Seat tubes are thinner than head tubes or bb shells, so this method provides extra metal at the time of welding to make it more like the other two. From this standpoint, it seems like a good idea, and with the .5" interference section he decreases the heat damage caused by adding the extra weld.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rx-79g said:


> Not really a for or against, but I would bet he's doing it that way to have a bigger piece of metal to weld the pinch, seatstays and top tube to. Seat tubes are thinner than head tubes or bb shells, so this method provides extra metal at the time of welding to make it more like the other two. From this standpoint, it seems like a good idea, and with the .5" interference section he decreases the heat damage caused by adding the extra weld.


I'm sure Mr Potts could use any method that he figured was best as there would be no patents to worry about. I think it's a great idea and makes sense, just as you point out.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Moots RSL
________
Wellbutrin Death


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## gearguywb (Dec 26, 2006)

rubbersoul said:


> Moots RSL


We have a winner! (now if I could just afford one)


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Get a carbon bike and paint it Ti colorerd. That is the way to go for sure. Grab a Chinese carbon frame, paint it, and add some chinese carbon wheels. Plenty of threads to find the best one. Real Ti is too oldschool. You will be out of place.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

perttime said:


> Are you sure you didn't mean:
> http://bikesoul.com/2009/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32&Itemid=41
> from http://bikesoul.com/
> 
> ...or is it the same thing?




OH, you are correct. That other site is the MTB I've been looking at.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Being in Europe, I'd definitely look at a few brands on this side of the Atlantic.

http://vannicholas.com/
http://www.qoroz.co.uk/
http://www.sabbathbicycles.co.uk/
http://www.burls.co.uk/
(these are relatively inexpensive, some of them outsource the production. and I am missing many from the list. ... all the Italian, French, German, Spanish, etc. companies)

For "proper" custom work: 
http://www.crisptitanium.com/


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

rubbersoul said:


> Moots RSL


Agree.


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## mrod (Sep 4, 2002)

1. Serotta (I have a Ti Legend and love it!)
2. Spectrum (Tom Kellogg is a rock star bike builder and racer)
3. Holland (Bill Holland)
4. Eriksen
5. Independent Fabrications
6. Carl Strong
7. Moots
8. Davidson


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## juneho (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm also thinking about titanium and so far I have a short list of Kish, DeSalvo, Quiring, and Strong. Are they all equally good bets? I also heard that Carl doesn't do brushed titanium finishes. Is there anything wrong with brushed?

Spectrum is out of my price range, but I hear that their titanium bikes are made by ABG. Are there any drawbacks to this? How do the 4 builders I listed above compare to ABG? Thanks!


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## darwinosx (Oct 12, 2010)

Moots, not Litespeed or Merlin. Since ABG bought them they have gone downhill. Erickson. Serotta.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

juneho said:


> Spectrum is out of my price range, but I hear that their titanium bikes are made by ABG. Are there any drawbacks to this?


Spectrum titanium frames are designed, fit, & spec'd by Tom Kellog, then welded by Merlin**** (I presume that's what you mean by ABG?) then finished/painted by Tom...and if you order a complete bike build it's either Tom or his partner Jeff who hangs the components on it. Tom's had a relationship with Merlin for some 20+ years, so presumably their lines of communication are pretty solid...I can't imagine there are any drawbacks to the arrangement.


****Edit: Update, per Tom (via this post in the Velocipede Salon forum http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/spectrum-cycles-16052-5.html#post254293) - ABG/Merlin now only provides the materials, and the welding is performed by Seven.


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## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

Just got my Moots RSL - while other manufacturers offer nice rides, I can't recommend Moots highly enough after getting my hands on one and seeing the quality of workmanship.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

Mike T. said:


> Who builds them for Marinoni?



Not sure if you got answers for this old post.

Both Guru and Marinoni are made on premices (designed, welded, assembled)
Giuseppe is still around the shop, but son Paulo has taken over.

At Guru, they make everything (I saw the carbon manufacturing process) exepted for forks (they spec AlphaQ but one can get any other) 

while Marinoni has alu frames made in Asia, carbon tubing assembled on premises, and welds Ti and still like in the good old days.

I live in Montreal and have visited either factories.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

Someone mentionned Guru, from Laval, just minutes over the bridge from Montreal. You can get CAD design and back and forth precision through email. They will make your super frame the way you want it. 

I own two Litespeed frames (one old, one new) but if money had been no object, I would get a Moots, no question.

Second choice would be local: Guru or Marinoni. Who's your local builder?


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## armybikerider (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm loving that Moots RSL.....Ti feel with carbon light weight.....but the warranty scaes me.....one of the reasons I bought my Lynskey was the lifetime warranty.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

armybikerider said:


> I'm loving that Moots RSL.....Ti feel with carbon light weight.....but the warranty scaes me.....one of the reasons I bought my Lynskey was the lifetime warranty.


Wow, just checked that on the Moots website and was going to question what you were meaning as it says on the FAQ page:



> We offer a lifetime warranty on every Moots titanium frame. This warranty is for the original owner only.


Wasn't until I clicked on a link to the warranty detail that it said about the RSL having only a 5 year warranty.

Lifetime for me on both my Moots and my Blacksheep. :23:


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

FTR said:


> Wow, just checked that on the Moots website and was going to question what you were meaning as it says on the FAQ page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are you guys talking about? I can't find anything on the Moots website about a 5 year warranty on the RSL, which says "lifetime" right on its page.

The warranty PDF says "5 years on* Mountain* Super Light frames". Is that what you're reading?


BTW, a 2.6 pound RSL is not "ultra light" by any sort of standard. Sub 3 pound Ti road frames have been around for nearly 20 years, and Litespeed got down well below 2 pounds, pushing the 800 gram point usually occuppied by the lightest carbon. 2.6 is light-ish.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> What are you guys talking about? I can't find anything on the Moots website about a 5 year warranty on the RSL, which says "lifetime" right on its page.


Ack!!!
You are right.
I completely missed the word mountain somehow.


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## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> Not sure if you got answers for this old post.
> 
> Both Guru and Marinoni are made on premices (designed, welded, assembled)
> Giuseppe is still around the shop, but son Paulo has taken over.
> ...


Only could use Alpha Q if they have a stock of old forks, since True Temper is out of the cycling business and not producing forks anymore.


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## nor_cal_rider (Dec 18, 2006)

So far I'm loving the RSL look/feel enough to seriously consider a Vamoots as my next bike I'll build. Lynskey makes good stuff too (and I love their brushed finish and etched logos)- seriously looked at a Helix frame...just wonder how much of the shaped tubing is marketing.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

I have a Lynskey Helix OS and it is great. I've used several nice steel, carbon, and ti bikes over the decades and the Helix is by far the best. I'm a born skeptic when it comes to marketing but for whatever reasons, the frame just works for me.

That Moots RSL also looks real nice but I've never tried one. There are some real nice ti bikes out there.


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## NextTime (Oct 13, 2007)

*"Go local"*

I keep reading the advice to "go local" for a custom steel or ti build.

Who would you go to if you lived in southwest Connecticut?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

NextTime said:


> I keep reading the advice to "go local" for a custom steel or ti build.
> 
> Who would you go to if you lived in southwest Connecticut?


How far away is Spectrum in Pennsylvania?


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

rx-79g said:


> How far away is Spectrum in Pennsylvania?


Prolly a 3 or 4 hour drive. Of all the Ti builders af any repute, seems like Spectrum would be the closest to Southwest CT. I have at least 3 friends here in NYC (which is pretty close to Southwest CT) who own Spectrums, and they all took the drive to Tom's barn. Worth a day, I would think.


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## giantdefy2 (Dec 2, 2010)

FTR said:


> Wow, just checked that on the Moots website and was going to question what you were meaning as it says on the FAQ page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uber gorgeous looking bike!!! But why does the downtube say "SLOOW"?? :ihih:


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

giantdefy2 said:


> Uber gorgeous looking bike!!! But why does the downtube say "SLOOW"?? :ihih:


haha... funny, but at the same time, FYI, that is this seattube


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

giantdefy2 said:


> Uber gorgeous looking bike!!! But why does the downtube say "SLOOW"?? :ihih:


Hmmmm, maybe that is why Moots usually runs it the opposite direction.
Then again, perhaps I subconciously put it on that way as I know it is true.


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## lav25 (Nov 22, 2002)

nor_cal_rider said:


> So far I'm loving the RSL look/feel enough to seriously consider a Vamoots as my next bike I'll build. Lynskey makes good stuff too (and I love their brushed finish and etched logos)- seriously looked at a Helix frame...just wonder how much of the shaped tubing is marketing.


SO, is the RSL overly stiff or just stiff enough? Have you ever ridden any other ti frames to compare? Just curious, I really want one, but want it to ride, not really do crits, which is what it is designed for. Thanks.


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## lav25 (Nov 22, 2002)

FTR said:


> Ack!!!
> You are right.
> I completely missed the word mountain somehow.


FTR, What size is your Compact MOOTS?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

lav25 said:


> FTR, What size is your Compact MOOTS?


It is the older sizing.
Size 59 which is a 58cm ETT.


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