# Are 23mm wide wheels really that good?



## trashysquid (Oct 14, 2013)

*Mavic Open Pros v. H Plus Son Archetype...*

So I did some research on here looking for recommended 200 pound Clyde wheel builds, and decided on some black 2014 Mavic Open Pros with Sapim spokes, 25m Conti Skins, alloy nipples, 32/32 and 105 hubs based on the mostly positive reviews that build had. I don't race (yet), and do mostly endurance riding.

Then Murphy's Law prevailed because the day after I received and installed the wheels, I read about the new H Plus Son Archetype wheels, and how those are "so much better Clyde builds than Open Pros, especially because they are 23mm wide" vice my 19mm Pros.

Should I stick with the Mavic wheels, or should I get the Archetype wheels and build those out using the hardware I just acquired because 23mm wheels are really that much better? Thanks.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

Keep what you have. The wheels you have are perfect for putting in miles. If you decide to race, you will need another set anyway. I'm 200 lbs and use open pros with 25mm PR4 endurance. My HED c2 Belgium rims are 28 spoke with 23mm PR4 and latex tubes. They feel a little more responsive and have a slightly better ride. Neither set makes a bit of difference in speed or when I get dropped.


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

The biggest difference I noticed when moving to the 23mm rim (assuming the rest of the build is nominally similar) is more stability at big efforts. 

Like rolling along in a race at 28mph and jumping up to 32. Putting in big power while you're already on it, the wider rim seams happier about it.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

The only part you will be able to reuse is the hub. The spokes are contingent on the rims and these two rims are of different inner diameter. It just does not make any sense to dismantle a perfectly fine set of brand new Mavic Pros just to go with a wider rim. The quote about the "so much better Clyde wheel....." is nonsense; maybe if you were 250 lbs, the extra meat of the Archetype could be put to good use but at 200 lbs you are a baby Clyde and have nothing to fear about using the Pro.
Ride wise you will be hard pressed to feel the difference on rim widths alone. So don't sweat it and go ride your wheels.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

The wheels you have now are good to go. 

I switched over to 23s and I'm happy. Maybe they're a little smoother or I can descend just a wee bit faster but it's not the orgasmic ride quality claimed by some. A lot of what you hear is confirmation bias or positive self talk to justify the 23mm/25mm rim purchase. 

Open Pros are a classic. Enjoy them until they fall apart and then get something else.


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## trashysquid (Oct 14, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> The wheels you have now are good to go.
> 
> I switched over to 23s and I'm happy. Maybe they're a little smoother or I can descend just a wee bit faster but it's not the orgasmic ride quality claimed by some. A lot of what you hear is confirmation bias or positive self talk to justify the 23mm/25mm rim purchase.
> 
> Open Pros are a classic. Enjoy them until they fall apart and then get something else.


That's exactly the kind of input I was looking for...thanks much.


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## trashysquid (Oct 14, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> The only part you will be able to reuse is the hub. The spokes are contingent on the rims and these two rims are of different inner diameter. It just does not make any sense to dismantle a perfectly fine set of brand new Mavic Pros just to go with a wider rim. The quote about the "so much better Clyde wheel....." is nonsense; maybe if you were 250 lbs, the extra meat of the Archetype could be put to good use but at 200 lbs you are a baby Clyde and have nothing to fear about using the Pro.
> Ride wise you will be hard pressed to feel the difference on rim widths alone. So don't sweat it and go ride your wheels.


Great input also....thanks again.


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## LookDave (Sep 29, 2007)

Wheels you just got are classic training wheels - will serve you well for years. Used to ride Open Pros, have since owned 2 sets of 23mm wheels - Velocity A23 and now Kinlin 279s. I can tell and like the difference, but nowhere near enough that I'd ditch a new set of Open Pros. Frankly I think you'd notice more difference with a smoother riding tire. Gatorskins are great for training - for an "event" ride try some Conti GP4000S, Michelin PR4, etc. Any of those in 25m will give you a more noticeable immediate change.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2013)

I have a set of Open Pro's and another newer build on A23's. Not much difference really and I think they are both good wheelsets. I ride on 25mm tires and have no experience with 23mm tires on the wider rims.


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## calrider61 (Jul 1, 2012)

Keep the Open Pros. Try latex tubes. Challenge/Vredestein. Then when your 25m Conti Skins wearout try 23m Conti 4000s. Try 23m front 25m rear. Also experiment with PSI.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> ...but it's not the orgasmic ride quality claimed by some...


Well that kinda kills my enthusiasm!


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

I don't know how much difference you'd feel going from a 19mm rim with 23mm tires to a 23mm rim with 23mm tires. Personally, I felt a difference, albeit not that huge, going from 19mm rims with 23mm tires to 25mm rims and 25mm tires.


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## Clipped_in (May 5, 2011)

I'm very near your weight and I ride 23/24mm wide rims. I like them a lot, but the differences between them and 19mm rims are subtle.

Ride what you've got, they'll be fine.


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## trashysquid (Oct 14, 2013)

calrider61 said:


> Keep the Open Pros. Try latex tubes. Challenge/Vredestein. Then when your 25m Conti Skins wearout try 23m Conti 4000s. Try 23m front 25m rear. Also experiment with PSI.


Definitely going to try these suggestions. Thanks to all for helping my not-too-bright self save some scratch.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*exactly what I was thinking tooo*



SauronHimself said:


> I don't know how much difference you'd feel going from a 19mm rim with 23mm tires to a 23mm rim with 23mm tires. Personally, I felt a difference, albeit not that huge, going from 19mm rims with 23mm tires to 25mm rims and 25mm tires.


I am in similar position at the OP - been riding OpenPro rims (32-spoke F/R) with 23mm tyres and then 25mm tyres for the last >20,000 miles without any issues. I was thinking to try 23mm HED C2 Belgium rims and from what I read here it's not worth the money but skipping 23mm rims and going to PLUS + 25mm HED C2 rims with 25mm tyres may just be worth it..... 

Question to all: what is the weight difference between HEC C2 Plus 25mm rims and the standard silver unpainted Mavic Open Pro rims (everything else being the same i.e., spokes, nipples, hubs, tyres) ??


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*answering my own*



acid_rider said:


> I am in similar position at the OP - been riding OpenPro rims (32-spoke F/R) with 23mm tyres and then 25mm tyres for the last >20,000 miles without any issues. I was thinking to try 23mm HED C2 Belgium rims and from what I read here it's not worth the money but skipping 23mm rims and going to PLUS + 25mm HED C2 rims with 25mm tyres may just be worth it.....
> 
> Question to all: what is the weight difference between HEC C2 Plus 25mm rims and the standard silver unpainted Mavic Open Pro rims (everything else being the same i.e., spokes, nipples, hubs, tyres) ??


I Google-d around for answers and here is what I found: 

Mavic Open Pro rim is 435 grams and HED C2 Belgium 23mm and HED C2 Belgium Plus 25mm rims are 475grams, i.e., 40 grams more per rim compared to Open Pro. 
I don't know if the aero advantages of HED C2 Belgium rims will compensate for the 40*2 grams of rotational weight penalty per wider rim (total of 80 grams more of rotational weight), even if the handling, grip and comfort of the wider rim is better, at 10% reduced air pressure.

Thoughts?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

calrider61 said:


> Keep the Open Pros. Try latex tubes. Challenge/Vredestein. Then when your 25m Conti Skins wearout try 23m Conti 4000s. Try 23m front 25m rear. Also experiment with PSI.


I think you mean mm when you refer to tire widths. A 25m tire would be VERY wide.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*yes indeed*



Kerry Irons said:


> I think you mean mm when you refer to tire widths. A 25m tire would be VERY wide.


yes, indeed, I meant 'mm' as in millimetres.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Kerry Irons said:


> I think you mean mm when you refer to tire widths. A 25m tire would be VERY wide.


But on the plus side it would have infinitely low rolling resistance.


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## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

acid_rider said:


> I Google-d around for answers and here is what I found:
> 
> Mavic Open Pro rim is 435 grams and HED C2 Belgium 23mm and HED C2 Belgium Plus 25mm rims are 475grams, i.e., 40 grams more per rim compared to Open Pro.
> I don't know if the aero advantages of HED C2 Belgium rims will compensate for the 40*2 grams of rotational weight penalty per wider rim (total of 80 grams more of rotational weight), even if the handling, grip and comfort of the wider rim is better, at 10% reduced air pressure.
> ...


I would doubt very much if you (or anyone for that matter) could tell the difference that either 80g of rotational weight or the aero advantage of HED C2 Belgium rims would make under average riding conditions. A lot of people claim they can which is a different thing altogether.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

trashysquid said:


> Definitely going to try these suggestions. Thanks to all for helping my not-too-bright self save some scratch.


Pass on the latex tubes. They're a PITA and they offer no change in how your bike rides. I tried them on a lark a few years ago and wasn't impressed. Plus, they bleed air so fast that you have to pump your tires up every day. I'd never bother with those silly things again. .


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

I have heard for decades that latex leaks.


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

So there are people who don't check there air pressure every day?

Maybe me and everyone I ride with are neurotic but very rarely do I head out on a ride without a pressure check.


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## trashysquid (Oct 14, 2013)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I have heard for decades that latex leaks.


I'm not as fast as I used to be, but upon the second look I got a good chuckle...


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

Sorry to convolute the thread with my unsavory humor.


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## eickmewg (Feb 11, 2012)

I have a set of Ultegra-Open Pro 32-spoke wheels and a set of Velocity Pro-build 23-mm A23 wheels. While the difference between the wheelsets is small, I prefer the Velocity wheels. I do think wider rims offer advantages and the Velocity wheels are considerably lighter than the Ultegra wheels. 

I will add my comments on latex tubes. I have had excellent results with Vredestein latex tubes in conjunction with Veloflex 23-mm Corsa tires. At 80 psi F and 90 PSI R, the Veloflex-Vredestein combination is very light and comfortable. I've had one slow leak with the Vredestein tubes due to a very small sliver of glass that worked its way through the tread in about a year. I do pump my tires up before every ride but that is not a hardship and part of my pre-ride ritual.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

I tried Corsa latex tubes and developed a slow leak on the rear tire within a month. Removed the front tube to inspect it and found the same issue developing (chaffing near the valve.) I could not find any indication that I had installed the tubes improperly. I have a low tolerance for mechanical issues like that so I'm rolling on lightweight butyl tubes now.

Latex tubes do feel a little smoother (like lowering pressure ~5psi) but they are not worth the high cost and low durability to save a watt or two of rolling resistance IMO.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

OK here's my .02.

First of all, I just want to say that I'm a lightweight at about 120 lbs, and if you have read my thread on RBR, I've persistantly saying that 19-20mm wide rims on 23mm wide tires are FINE for the majority of the riders (under 180 lbs) out there. And I still hold this perspective.

Having said that, let's proceed...

1) Wheelset #1: 19mm wide rims with 23mm regular clincher tires

This is my training wheelset. It's a Mavic Askium with Michelin endurance tires (hard high carbon content tires). I roll with 90/100 psi here.


2) Wheelset #2: 20.8mm wide rim with 23mm tubeless tires

This one is a Dura Ace C24 Tubeless wheelset. These rims are 20.8mm wide. I'm using tubeless 23mm tires. I generally use 80/90 (front/rear) PSI. Now I know guys will say why am I using 80/90 psi and not 70/80 (since I'm only 120lbs). That's because I ride on mostly smooth roads, and I hate seeing my front tires squish down when the psi gets down to 70! And 70/80 psi feels like the wheels are squishing too much during out of saddle effort. So I roll with 80/90 psi.


3) Wheelset #3: 23mm wide rims with 25mm wide TUBELESS tires

This is the Bontrager TLR wheelset (tubeless), has 23mm wide rims, and using 25mm wide tubeless tires. At 80/90 PSI, it feels just like wheelset#2 the Dura Ace above. But drop down to 70/80 PSI, then I can honestly say it's day and night difference in term of COMFORT. I put this wheelset at 70/80 PSI on a Cyfac Nerv (a rough riding crit type bike), and the bike becomes a couch. Usually, I cringe going over railroad tracks on the Cyfac Nerv because I know my feet and arms will be rattled, but with 23mm wide rim, 25mm wide tires, AND in tubeless configuration, this is where the "magic" of wide rims will happen. With the Bontrager at 70/80 psi, I do not feel as slugghish like I would with the Dura Ace C24 at the same PSI. However, the slugghish is STILL there compared to when pumped to 80/90 PSI. But 80/90 psi is where the comfort magic disappears off significantly.


Conclusion: 
If you're looking for comfort and not sacrifice much performace, then you need to go all the way to 23mm rims, with 25mm TUBELESS tires. Anything less,... you might as well stay with 19mm rims on 23mm tires, because you will not feel much difference.

Now the new HED+ rims are 25mm wide (where as the older C2 was 23mm wide) AND tubeless compatible. I would be most curious to test a 25mm rim with 25mm tubeless tires. But my suspect is that going from 23mm tubeless rim to 25mm tubeless rim is not as significant as going 19mm nontubeless to 23mm TUBELESS rims.

23mm rim + 25mm tubeless tire is pure sweetness flat terrain.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> If you're looking for comfort and not sacrifice much performace, then you need to go all the way to 23mm rims, with 25mm TUBELESS tires.


Why tubeless though? I would think a 23mm wide rim with a good 25mm clincher tire like the GP4000s or PR4 would ride just as smoothly at lower pressures.

I just moved from 19mm rims to 23mm aluminum rims with 25mm GP4000s tires and the wide rims definitely ride better with 10psi less pressure. The wide rims also feel more confident in corners. I had my doubts about wide rims but feel like they are worth spending a few more bucks for if you're in the market for new wheels.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> Why tubeless though? I would think a 23mm wide rim with a good 25mm clincher tire like the GP4000s or PR4 would ride just as smoothly at lower pressures.
> 
> I just moved from 19mm rims to 23mm aluminum rims with 25mm GP4000s tires and the wide rims definitely ride better with 10psi less pressure. The wide rims also feel more confident in corners. I had my doubts about wide rims but feel like they are worth spending a few more bucks for if you're in the market for new wheels.


Tubeless because at lower psi, you're more vulnerable to pinch flats.

The other benefits of tubeless as I have found out is:

- tubeless hold air very well. My tires lose less than 10 psi in a week. This means I don't need to check my tire pressure before every ride (which answer a previous poster's question in here about "who doesn't check their tire pressure before every ride?". With tubeless, I don't).

- when you do get a catastrophic flat (eg, a major cut that can't be sealed by the sealant), then the tire will not roll off the bead anywhere as easily as a regular clincher. Think "run flat". This has happened to me 2 times, with 1 time being in a fast descent, thank god the tire didn't roll off!

The ONLY major knock against tubeless is if you get a major cut, sealant can't seal, and you need to put a tube in it. Ugh..ok then it is a PAIN to do this on the road. But it can be done with some patience. I've done it twice on the road!

As far as cornering confidence goes, a lot of folks say wider tire "feel" more confident to them. I reckon this is a psychological effect. The fact is, 99% of the folks out there do not come near the limit of the available grip of a 23mm tire. If they don't come near the limit of available grip, then going to 25mm tire doesn't enhance any cornering performance. Personally, I rail equally fast on 23mm and 25mm tires, in fact, I may even rail faster on the 23mm because I feel that it's snappier to flick it into corners. Rubber compound affect grip much more than the difference between a 23mm and 25mm tires. If you want to corner like a badass MotoGP style, then you get a tire with grippy rubber compound. That's how it works.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> Tubeless because at lower psi, you're more vulnerable to pinch flats.


Right but 23mm wide rims allow you to run ~10psi lower pressure without the risk of pinch flat already. You said you don't like going below 70-80psi anyways so I still don't really see much advantage to tubeless as far as running lower pressures. Plus, I don't think tubeless tires are as good as the best clincher tires like the GP4000s or PR4 in terms of rolling resistance and ride quality.

I do think tubeless are good for someone who gets a lot of punctures on (tubed) clincher tires. There's no denying sealant works for sealing small punctures.

As far as handling I was skeptical but I did notice a pretty immediate difference on the wider rims (with the same tires.)


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> Right but 23mm wide rims allow you to run ~10psi lower pressure without the risk of pinch flat already. You said you don't like going below 70-80psi anyways so I still don't really see much advantage to tubeless as far as running lower pressures. Plus, I don't think tubeless tires are as good as the best clincher tires like the GP4000s or PR4 in terms of rolling resistance and ride quality.
> 
> I do think tubeless are good for someone who gets a lot of punctures on (tubed) clincher tires. There's no denying sealant works for sealing small punctures.
> 
> As far as handling I was skeptical but I did notice a pretty immediate difference on the wider rims (with the same tires.)


Let me clarify. If you run a tubed tire at 70 psi, then it WILL be squirmy during hard cornering, or out of saddle effort. This is in addition to getting pinched flat. If you run a 25mm tubeless tire at 70 psi, then it will not squirm during the same hard cornering, and out of saddle effort will also be less squirmy compared to tubed version. If you just roll in a straight line, then there's not much difference in terms of the squirmimess (because you're not doing anything much other than roll).

In other words, what I'm saying is that a tubed tire running 10 psi lower (going from say 80 to 70) does not perform the same as a tubeless tire running 10 psi lower (also going from 80 to 70).

And btw, I've ridden the GP4000s plenty. I know lots of folks praise it, and that's good for them. But to me, GP4000s are only marginally better than an endurance type tire. GP4000s ride harsh, and they don't roll nice. The Bontrager R3 tubeless tire in 25mm wide will outperform the GP4000s 25mm clincher anyday, and by performance, I mean rolling, snappiness, suppleness, cornering. The GP4000s does last longer, that's about it.

Anyway, i've tried a lot of tubeless tires and by now I'd say I'm completely sold on tubeless 25mm wide tires. This is where the proverbial magic carpet ride starts to happen.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Fair enough, I know the CRR tests place the GP4000s at the top the charts in terms of rolling resistance. The only tires that beat it are fragile race tires that have much less puncture protection. For those that find it too "harsh" the Michelin Pro Race 4 is a better option (at the expense of durability.) I know Schwalbe makes a tubeless version of the Ultremo ZX. I've tried the tubed clincher version of that tire and was not impressed compared to the GP4000s (harsher and slower feeling.)

Anyways, you should really try wide rims with good tubed tires. They are smoother in the straights and more confident in the corners. I don't really understand how a tubeless tire can be less squirmy at the same pressure (all else being equal.)


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> - tubeless hold air very well. My tires lose less than 10 psi in a week. This means I don't need to check my tire pressure before every ride (which answer a previous poster's question in here about "who doesn't check their tire pressure before every ride?". With tubeless, I don't).


That is what I experience with Michelin Airstop A1 70 gm inner tubes - about 10 psi per week. If you were having to pump your tires every day when using tubes then you either were using latex tubes or you had a pinhole leak or a leaky valve.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> That is what I experience with Michelin Airstop A1 70 gm inner tubes - about 10 psi per week. If you were having to pump your tires every day when using tubes then you either were using latex tubes or you had a pinhole leak or a leaky valve.


Same with Schwalbe inner tubes; about 10psi loss per week. Conti inners don't hold air as effectively (about 20psi loss /week) but still quite well when compared to my Vittoria latex inners that show me about 30psi loss per day.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

This past week I rebuilt my wheels which formerly used Velocity Aerohead rims and CX-Ray spokes. I have been riding some sort of wheels with Aerohead rims for at least 10 years and nothing else. The new rims are Pacenti SL23. On the front I went with DT Aerolite spokes 20H. The rear is 24H with DT Comps on the drive side and Revs on the NDS. I have ridden the wheels about 100 miles over past two days with today having some very steep climbs. I normally ride Michelin Pro3 tires but I decided to try a Veloflex Corsa on the front the first day. The ride was harsher than before and it seemed to be coming from the front wheel. Today I changed back to the Pro3 and feel the ride is smoother. Normally I use 100 PSI but today I went with 90. I think I could probably go with 95 without making the ride much rougher. There were several things I noticed with the new wheels. The first being the back wheel felt stiffer especially when standing during a climb. I am not sure if this is due to the thicker spokes, the rim or some of both but it was immediately noticable and unexpected. The other thing I noticed is the ride feels more stable and I feel more confident going downhill fast and cornering. On paper these rims should be a bit more aero than the old ones but it's not something I could feel.
So now I going to stop thinking about my wheels and ride these until they die.


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