# Basso out...



## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

More riders suspended: Basso and Mancebo out 
The various teams taking part in the Tour de France have now suspended all of their riders implicated in the Operacion Puerto affair, including Ivan Basso and Francisco Mancebo. After Jan Ullrich and Oscar Sevilla were taken out this morning by T-Mobile, the teams are now pulling their other riders out. The pressure from the organisers, the UCI, the sponsors, and the non-affected teams has been intense. 

ASO public relations man Bernard Hinault told radio RTL that he expects 15-20 riders to be ejected before the day is out. The UCI will then ask the national cycling federations to start disciplinary proceedings against the riders named in the Spanish network. 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun30news3


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

chuckice said:


> More riders suspended: Basso and Mancebo out
> The various teams taking part in the Tour de France have now suspended all of their riders implicated in the Operacion Puerto affair, including Ivan Basso and Francisco Mancebo. After Jan Ullrich and Oscar Sevilla were taken out this morning by T-Mobile, the teams are now pulling their other riders out. The pressure from the organisers, the UCI, the sponsors, and the non-affected teams has been intense.
> 
> ASO public relations man Bernard Hinault told radio RTL that he expects 15-20 riders to be ejected before the day is out. The UCI will then ask the national cycling federations to start disciplinary proceedings against the riders named in the Spanish network.
> ...


The Fat lady has sung! I will be on the TDF podium this year! wooo hoooo!


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

philippec said:


> The Fat lady has sung! I will be on the TDF podium this year! wooo hoooo!


I called it first...about 2 days ago! And I'm clean...I swear!


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Can you spell FIASCO?

Already I have completely lost interest in the tour... 

It is interesting how in europe, doping is handled by police. In the US, it is largely decriminalized, unless it involves controlled substances.


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## hambinator (Aug 1, 2005)

I think i just lost all hope for professional cycling in general...


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## thefunkyplumber (Sep 27, 2004)

filtersweep said:


> Can you spell FIASCO?
> 
> Already I have completely lost interest in the tour...
> 
> It is interesting how in europe, doping is handled by police. In the US, it is largely decriminalized, unless it involves controlled substances.



BALCO
FIASCO
I can smell a haiku in the works

Are you saying the US is more 'blind eye' than Spain?


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## Bryn (Jul 9, 2005)

hambinator said:


> I think i just lost all hope for professional cycling in general...


Hear Hear!


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## R.Rice (Aug 23, 2004)

Wow.............Just,WOW.


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## hambinator (Aug 1, 2005)

Throwing out Ullrich, Basso, and Vino is basically like throwing out 3 lance armstrong's in my opinion. Ill bet the tour wont even start this year due to rider protests, and most likely expect riots across france today. Now doesnt this make you lose some credibility in Lance saying he's innocent as well?


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

This is going to be a great tour! It is an opportunity to start over, showcase new talent.

But who is really clean? Surely this isn't the only operation of its kind? Although it is wide ranging with the best riders from Italy, Germany, Switzerland participating.


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

Cadel the first mtb rider to win the tour and even better hes and aussie, maybe floyd will get close but hes a mtber too, we will rule the world


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## goshawk1 (Feb 8, 2006)

*Not worth the time*

After the fallout I guess I won't be watching the tour. How can you have a Tour de France after removing the top contenders? I am not saying that I want dopers to ride but it seems it's so widespread that you don't know who was doing what. let's hope the rest of the riders protest and refuse to ride.


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## ringroadwarrior (Dec 8, 2002)

*It seems they have to have..*

something other that hear-say. I don't see how the could throw them out unless if the evidence is not totaly damning. There could be too much backlash if that was not the case.


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## PbOkole (Feb 10, 2004)

*Now there's a good idea.....*



goshawk1 said:


> After the fallout I guess I won't be watching the tour. How can you have a Tour de France after removing the top contenders? I am not saying that I want dopers to ride but it seems it's so widespread that you don't know who was doing what. let's hope the rest of the riders protest and refuse to ride.


 Just because they remove a couple of top riders, you suddenly lose interest. If you don't watch, it's no big deal the real cycling fans will continue to support the sport and watch. I find it ridiculous that you want the other riders to protest. That is the last thing the riders should do. At least in Ullrich's case, his sponsors demanded the team pull him, not ASO. There is no reason to protest his removal. It was an internal decision on T-Mobile's part. I haven't read whether Basso's removal was an internal decision or an ASO decision so I can't speak to that circumstance.
This has the potential to be the most exciting TdF in years. This is the first Tour since 98that a former winner isn't riding. It doesn't get any more wide open than this. Riders will be riding their guts out to win this thing now. We may see a whole peloton of Thomas Voeklers riding way beyond their norm because of these extraordinary circumstances. We may just see the birth of the next generation of greats in this Tour.


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## Tomwd3 (Apr 29, 2005)

*Very Sad*

I'm personally disappointed that I won't get to see Jan and Ivan duke it out. 
The tour WILL start. I bet it will be quite interesting even. 
I know folks are saying that it's not fair that Jan and Ivan and others are being pulled out w/o testing positive. I can only imagine that the evidence must be substantial for thier own teams to pull them. (This isn't ASO banning them).
If I was a rider that wasn't doping, I'd be thrilled. Now maybe I can believe it's possible to succeed w/o the drugs.
Just my 2 cents.


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## hrspear (Mar 18, 2005)

I agree with Pb, this is going to make for an exciting, wide open tour. While I was looking forward to seeing Jan and Basso battling it out, I am at least as excited about seeing a wider field with legitimate GC hopes battling it out. This is going to be a great tour. It's miserable that this came to light at the last minute, but I'm just as excited to watch the tour now as I was before...can't wait to see things get rolling and watch new stars rise to the occasion.


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## Vel07 (Oct 28, 2005)

Spunout said:


> This is going to be a great tour! It is an opportunity to start over, showcase new talent.
> 
> But who is really clean? Surely this isn't the only operation of its kind? Although it is wide ranging with the best riders from Italy, Germany, Switzerland participating.


I tend to agree with Spunout. I am hoping there will far more attacks, riders coming out of the wood work maybe someone like a DZ placing high. This doesnt bother me too much at all. Hopefully this will also give Americans more exposure.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

It'll be interesting to be sure, but lets be honest here...Basso and Ullrich were just unlucky enough to be caught. You can't tell me that folks like Armstrong are so great physically that can can beat doped up Basso and Ullrich while remaining clean.

If it wasn't for this Operation Puerto, Basso, Ullrich (and the 50+ others) would continue to test clean...

Everyone of these top contenders are most likely doping.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

T-MObile was given evidence that they said was flatly impossible to reconcile with Ullrich's claim of innocence, so clearly they have matched blood samples. These moves to exclude the top contenders is what is needed in the fight against doping-it's one thing to kick out a water bottle carrier, but team leaders making big bucks is another thing. Personally, I think it's going to make for an especially exciting tour-look how many guys will think they can win it, none really a proven tour rider in terms of the consistency across 3 weeks-Floyd's gonna win...


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## Sintesi (Nov 13, 2001)

hrspear said:


> I agree with Pb, this is going to make for an exciting, wide open tour. While I was looking forward to seeing Jan and Basso battling it out, I am at least as excited about seeing a wider field with legitimate GC hopes battling it out. This is going to be a great tour. It's miserable that this came to light at the last minute, but I'm just as excited to watch the tour now as I was before...can't wait to see things get rolling and watch new stars rise to the occasion.


Christ we could see an all american podium now. You really want to see some euro heads explode?


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Sintesi said:


> Christ we could see an all american podium now. You really want to see some euro heads explode?


I'll be on the Champs Elysees and I can tell you it would be sweet to see Floyd, George and Levi as the podium!!!


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

So does Basso get stripped of his Giro? I'd imagine that's not looking good for him...time will tell with the evidence but what a disgrace if so.

I suppose this is the Lance after effect. When your legacy is going to be defined after Lance retires the pressure must've been thru the roof for Jan and Ivan. Maybe Jan needed the edge to get past the nagging injuries and low conditioning just one more year while Ivan needed it to come out of Lance's shadow and do the double. I could believe they both did it...Ivan was beyond dominating at the Giro...putting minutes on the real mountain goats was


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> It'll be interesting to be sure, but lets be honest here...Basso and Ullrich were just unlucky enough to be caught. You can't tell me that folks like Armstrong are so great physically that can can beat doped up Basso and Ullrich while remaining clean.
> 
> If it wasn't for this Operation Puerto, Basso, Ullrich (and the 50+ others) would continue to test clean...
> 
> Everyone of these top contenders are most likely doping.


I totally agree. Given the high stakes and how competitive those guys are, it's no surprise that most if not all have to look for "extra edge". Let's not forget, that these guys are still by far the most talented bike riders and that they are still riding their bikes many hours a day for most of the year. 

I have no idea what I myself would have done in their situation, so I won't pass judgement. I just want to see some good bike racing, dammit, I don't care if they dope to the gils - it's their bodies. 

But I think this will still be a very exciting and suspensful tour. I will bet you this is the most we talked about the Tour the week before it even started.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

filtersweep said:


> In the US, it is largely decriminalized, unless it involves controlled substances.


Well, FS, IIRC baseball's issues are a matter for the US Congress to investigate and do nothing over.


Oh, well-is there any real surprise in this? I suppose from the fact that so many riders could get exposed in one fell swoop. Enjoy thhe race, w/o the usual rivalriesit should make it more interesting methinks.


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## SuperB (Jul 1, 2004)

Or weed!


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## SuperB (Jul 1, 2004)

filtersweep said:


> It is interesting how in europe, doping is handled by police. In the US, it is largely decriminalized, unless it involves controlled substances.


or weed!


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## goshawk1 (Feb 8, 2006)

*A thing called trust.*



PbOkole said:


> Just because they remove a couple of top riders, you suddenly lose interest. If you don't watch, it's no big deal the real cycling fans will continue to support the sport and watch. I find it ridiculous that you want the other riders to protest. That is the last thing the riders should do. At least in Ullrich's case, his sponsors demanded the team pull him, not ASO. There is no reason to protest his removal. It was an internal decision on T-Mobile's part. I haven't read whether Basso's removal was an internal decision or an ASO decision so I can't speak to that circumstance.
> This has the potential to be the most exciting TdF in years. This is the first Tour since 98that a former winner isn't riding. It doesn't get any more wide open than this. Riders will be riding their guts out to win this thing now. We may see a whole peloton of Thomas Voeklers riding way beyond their norm because of these extraordinary circumstances. We may just see the birth of the next generation of greats in this Tour.


You ask why I don't want to watch,it's pretty simple. I love cycling for what it is. A beautiful sport that in racing terms pits person against person. Through the years I have come to admire the talent of certain riders, Basso and Botero among them. I read things in magazines about how they are good people who work hard to get where they are at. Procycling being one instance of such accounts. Now after following these guys I find out that they are all cheating or they must have been, for why would the teams pull there own riders if such evidence were not present. It makes me question how you can watch a race when for all you know the other riders are cheating too, they have just not been caught.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

filtersweep said:


> Already I have completely lost interest in the tour...



I disagree 100%. It's starting to get super interesting.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

hambinator said:


> I think i just lost all hope for professional cycling in general...



Perhaps you had too much stock in it in the 1st place?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

hambinator said:


> Throwing out Ullrich, Basso, and Vino is basically like throwing out 3 lance armstrong's in my opinion. Ill bet the tour wont even start this year due to rider protests, and most likely expect riots across france today. Now doesnt this make you lose some credibility in Lance saying he's innocent as well?



wrong... all wrong. it's matter of fact I think you should make that bet real.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Spunout said:


> This is going to be a great tour! It is an opportunity to start over, showcase new talent.
> 
> But who is really clean? Surely this isn't the only operation of its kind? Although it is wide ranging with the best riders from Italy, Germany, Switzerland participating.



I agree.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

goshawk1 said:


> You ask why I don't want to watch,it's pretty simple. I love cycling for what it is. A beautiful sport that in racing terms pits person against person. Through the years I have come to admire the talent of certain riders, Basso and Botero among them. I read things in magazines about how they are good people who work hard to get where they are at. Procycling being one instance of such accounts. Now after following these guys I find out that they are all cheating or they must have been, for why would the teams pull there own riders if such evidence were not present. It makes me question how you can watch a race when for all you know the other riders are cheating too, they have just not been caught.



This is reflection of so much of life, humanity and the world. It literally is what it is.


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## Stinky Hippie (Jul 19, 2002)

*What prevents a team from....*

....deciding at the last minute to reinstate a rider? I ask this because I see Basso, Ullrich et al. are "suspended" but I don't see "they will not be riding in the Tour de France" written anywhere. 

This is all too surreal. 





chuckice said:


> More riders suspended: Basso and Mancebo out
> The various teams taking part in the Tour de France have now suspended all of their riders implicated in the Operacion Puerto affair, including Ivan Basso and Francisco Mancebo. After Jan Ullrich and Oscar Sevilla were taken out this morning by T-Mobile, the teams are now pulling their other riders out. The pressure from the organisers, the UCI, the sponsors, and the non-affected teams has been intense.
> 
> ASO public relations man Bernard Hinault told radio RTL that he expects 15-20 riders to be ejected before the day is out. The UCI will then ask the national cycling federations to start disciplinary proceedings against the riders named in the Spanish network.
> ...


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## xcountry41 (Aug 20, 2005)

*What now?*

After the NHL playoffs were finished I said to my kids" Nothing on TV now until The Tour"
I guess there's nothing on now until hockey season starts again. Unless OLN re commits to World Cup XC moutain biking. Go Cadel, Go Floyd


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## mountaineer (Sep 26, 2005)

*Peaking?*

I guess the concept of peaking for a race is a synonym for "just got my transfusion".

I believe this is what we all feared but did not want to admit. They* all *have to use PED (legal and illegal) or they cannot compete.


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*What now? The Tour!*

C'mon! As bad as this is, there's good all around! No clear winner, cheaters are gone (at least the ones who got caught) and riders like Leipheimer, Voeckler, Moreau (c'mon, it's probably his last shot) and Hincapie who have showed "promise" in the past can fill the void or live up to their hype.

This'll make up for Ghana not getting into the finals this year. Long live the underdogs!


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

xcountry41 said:


> After the NHL playoffs were finished I said to my kids" Nothing on TV now until The Tour"
> I guess there's nothing on now until hockey season starts again. Unless OLN re commits to World Cup XC moutain biking. Go Cadel, Go Floyd


Why give up...are you a fan of cycling? If so then this promises to be the most wide open race in years. No clear cut favorites...any breakaway cut be fatal...possibility for 3 Americans on the France podium...sounds good to me.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

chuckice said:


> So does Basso get stripped of his Giro?


This is a good question and I'll offer my expert speculation on the matter. I would imagine that so long as he continues to deny everything, he'll keep his Giro title since he wasn't caught in any doping controls and was just implicated by paper. Heras was caught with both A and B sample (his B sample was also broken up and tested at three separate labs). Millar tested clean at Hamilton but confessed that he had a regime to prep for the event which was the only way they could strip his title. Just being caught with a syringe wouldn't have been enough.

As for DNA evidence, they don't need any hair from these riders as most provided control blood samples at the Giro. These samples were compared to many of the bags in evidence as a part of this magical 500 page document that is being presented today.

This tour will be like watching MLS instead of the world cup.


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## BenWA (Aug 11, 2004)

I'm still trying to find an up-to-date list of all the riders who have been pulled. Can anyone cough one up? I don't feel like wading thru every single one of the 90 threads there now are about this whole debacle.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

BenWA said:


> I'm still trying to find an up-to-date list of all the riders who have been pulled. Can anyone cough one up? I don't feel like wading thru every single one of the 90 threads there now are about this whole debacle.


This seems to be current...from cycling4all.com
Consequences: 
- T-Mobile has suspended: Rudy Pevenage - Jan Ullrich and Oscar Sevilla Ribera
- CSC: Ivan Basso (Ita) will not start in the Tour; Riis confirmed he is also "on the list" 
- also Francisco Mancebo Perez (Spa-A2r) and 5 riders of the scandal team from Saiz 
are expelled: Joseba Beloki Dorronsoro (Spa) - Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) - 
Allan Davis (Aus) - Isidro Nozal Vega (Spa) and Sergio Paulinho (Por)
This brings the total number of expelled riders on NINE = just confirmed by the UCI !!
- Manager Theo de Rooij: "There are NO Rabobank riders on the list" (de Telegraaf) 
- Francisco Mancebo Perez (Spa-A2r) stops per today his cycling career


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## edjhiii (Apr 29, 2006)

Hummmmm, Does France actually have a change to put a ridder on the podium? Think about it? X-files or what.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

BenWA said:


> I'm still trying to find an up-to-date list of all the riders who have been pulled. Can anyone cough one up? I don't feel like wading thru every single one of the 90 threads there now are about this whole debacle.


Velonews has a revised roster - complete with names struck through. What a depressing day I've had.


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

best tour ever!! will the absence of the big guys prompt all the dark horses to throw attack after attack to seewho really has the form now. With no real stand out leaders who will control the pelaton? we could see a tour full of guys who ride like vino wow that would be great. im ready for a lack of sleep over the next three weeks. bring it on.


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## walleyeangler (Nov 4, 2005)

*Tour de Farce*

What bunk! Penalties without trial? Guilt based on suspicion? This should never have happened this way. The finger should be pointed at a committee that seems unable to conduct its business professionally, without bias and back its actions with proof. Why not test them today? Those who fail don't ride tomorrow. Show up and test them in the morning, too. Tour de Farce. Totally unfortunate.


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## snowbound (Jan 26, 2006)

walleyeangler said:


> What bunk! Penalties without trial? Guilt based on suspicion? This should never have happened this way. The finger should be pointed at a committee that seems unable to conduct its business professionally, without bias and back its actions with proof. Why not test them today? Those who fail don't ride tomorrow. Show up and test them in the morning, too. Tour de Farce. Totally unfortunate.


Pro Tour ethical rules. It's too bad, but all riders and teams agreed to them. Nobody *under the suspicion* of doping can ride.


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## volklskier89 (Jul 29, 2004)

I think its kind of funny, over the last few years there has been a witch hunt to try to find lance using performance enhancing drugs and now they have implicated all sorts of european riders in this ring with no american riders, in fact so far the only currently suspended american is Tyler Hamilton, and does anyone else find it ironic that David Millar is back from his suspension this year?


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## Jetski (Apr 23, 2004)

*Its going to be fun!!!*

It is a shame that it had to happen like this! But, it can be a great thing for the sport to finely get rid of the drugs and wackiness in cycling. I hope it will scare the heck out of the rest of the riders so we can have a clean and wholesome sport once again. 

I cannot wait to watch the Tour this year. I think it is going to be awesome. You are going to have riders pushing past there limits like we never have seen before. It will be a very aggressive tour with hopefully a lot of dueling which will make it more interesting. 

I think that it will allow the Americans to shine. We do have some of the best riders in the World. Maybe, next year we will see more Americans riding in the Tour? I like to watch American riders they are smart, hard working and aggressive. Most of all Americans hate to be beat!


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## wheezer (Sep 21, 2004)

*bike racing is bike racing*

and i will still watch the tour with great interest. lots of drama to unfold once the wheels start rolling and everyone here will be glued to it. so all ya'll who are hatin' on spectating, we'll see once the sprinters start winding it up on a mass gallop. the alps, the pyrenees, valverde, simoni, cunego, floyd. if you think you're not into this race you're on way more than EPO.

speaking of substances, most of us know what it's like to strive for performance, whether we're racing of just testing it out on club rides, and we're not even getting paid for it. if you have the resources to go a little faster under safe supervision, how is it any different from having a technological edge in terms of your equipment or being geographically advantaged by living at high altitude? and if you're a GC contender, you most likely (most definitely) have the resources and are doing it. it's not cheating if everyone's on the same field, and they most definitely are. so anyone who thinks the cheaters have been kicked out and now it's a clean tour, the dream has finally got to stop. and anyone who thinks they're not going to watch the tour because it's now somehow spoiled, good morning. have a cup of coffee and get your OLN on, because it's still going to be a hell of a race.

finally, to the french, who make the best wine in the world and are the supreme masters of the culinary heavens: you've been frothing at the mouth to be rid of americans dominating this greuling, spectacular event that you so graciously host, your worst nightmare has now begun. go floyd! go george! bring it on!!!


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## psi_co (Sep 27, 2004)

can´t believe Ullrich being so stupid as the others, hanging out whre the devils´s made its biggest shi*t?

If I was a millionaire, they wouldn´t catch me.I´ve had some that no one knows.

And I´d use all th elegal drugs that are nearly as good and as safe as EPO.

Pro biking isn´t just riding and handing out cash to the doctores anymore, if you´re serious about it and not that stupid.


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## Bryan (Sep 19, 2004)

*Yahoo news link*

Found this story on Yahoo news...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060701/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_tour_de_france_suspensions;_ylt=AmbZS.Lfm9NWsgBCAEjyy0ys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cm82NXAwBHNlYwM3NTU-

This whole thing is just unbelievable. Who *isn't* doping should be the big question. This years tour winner will forever live under the shadow of doubt as to his ability to win if Ullrich and Basso had been in the race. So who else is waiting to be caught? Tom Boonen? Robby McEwen? This really sucks. 

Next thing you know we're going to hear that Schwarzenegger used roids! :nonod:


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

walleyeangler said:


> What bunk! Penalties without trial? Guilt based on suspicion? This should never have happened this way. The finger should be pointed at a committee that seems unable to conduct its business professionally, without bias and back its actions with proof. Why not test them today? Those who fail don't ride tomorrow. Show up and test them in the morning, too. Tour de Farce. Totally unfortunate.


Why test them? It obviously doesn't work! Millar was always tested clean, yet he admitted to taking EPO. The masking agents work as advertised! There are many examples of this. The testing is useless. 

From what we're heard from the various team DS - the evidence is "irrefutable" - not "suspicion". This SHOULD have happened this way. You have to take a hard stance against doping if the sport is to gain any credibility. It sounds like the police did a good job with the investigation. Since testing doesn't work, good old fashioned detective work is the only way to catch the cheaters, and that's what happened here.

Who knows if the rest of the peloton is clean or not - but we do know that this will likely be the cleanest tour in some time. Hurray for that! Not only that, but the race is wide open - it should be the most action filled tour in years as well. Hurray for that too!


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

chuckice said:


> I suppose this is the Lance after effect. When your legacy is going to be defined after Lance retires the pressure must've been thru the roof for Jan and Ivan. Maybe Jan needed the edge to get past the nagging injuries and low conditioning just one more year while Ivan needed it to come out of Lance's shadow and do the double. I could believe they both did it...Ivan was beyond dominating at the Giro...putting minutes on the real mountain goats was


This stuff has been going on before LANCE arrived on the scene, while he was on the scene, and it will continue to go on after this affair. Simply put, doping has been accepted as OK by the riders since the inception of professional cycling. Only WADA and the media attention have turned doping into cheating. I think it's a bit naive to think these guys just now turned to doping to grab some glory in the post-LANCE era. Ullrich won the Tour at the height of unrestricted EPO use for Christ's sake. As long as riders need results to get a contract and team directors need results to secure sponsorship doping will exist. Clearly, the drug tests are not effective.


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## psi_co (Sep 27, 2004)

As long as dope provides better performance and thus more fun in doing what you do, which clearly is the performance! it´s absolutely inevitable that one who´s performing for let´s say 3 years only as his profession wouldn´t use drugs to getting better.

It´s like being forced not eating for three days and then saying "no" when a meal is in front of you.

But then again, who in this modern world was ever forced not to eat for three days?

Who will understand the hunger and the progressions made from a simple but necessary meal?

Who wouldn´t use a tool? bla, bla bla .... a catstrophy,

But let´s spend millions on this bullshit, make some criminals, chase some Pantanis to death. It´s worth it!!! Our chlidren neeeeeed to know what these guys are doing.

Boy, what if i snorted a line, ate a shroom, threw some X every other month and no one would get to know about it, the dealers and everything.Wouldn´t that be terrible???


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## psi_co (Sep 27, 2004)

Bryan said:


> Next thing you know we're going to hear that Schwarzenegger used roids! :nonod:


I couldn´t stand watching movies being made from actors and directors/producers that are on roids or coke.

that would be catastrophy! 

What if my children saw those films?

Whow can there be morality when sin is in the actors and criminal intend in the director and the producers?

Maybe it´s infecting the minds of the good people?

Someday we´ll be having homosexuals on TV in the cinema or in pro-sports?!:mad2: 

When there´s no more room in hell, the dead´ll walk the earth.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

psi_co said:


> As long as dope provides better performance and thus more fun in doing what you do, which clearly is the performance! it´s absolutely inevitable that one who´s performing for let´s say 3 years only as his profession wouldn´t use drugs to getting better.
> 
> It´s like being forced not eating for three days and then saying "no" when a meal is in front of you.
> 
> ...


Especially if you consider all drugs we take to make our regular lives better. Penis enlargement, heartburn, mood swings - they have a pill for everything! So we wouldn't think twice to take an aspirin or drink a can of red bull before an important meeting, if our head hurts or we need to concetrate a bit better. If there was a drug that increased your IQ by 20 points, do you think white-collar workers would think twice about taking it? We get a stressful day at work and we get a couple of drinks, because it relaxes us. Antidepressants, painkillers, we are so hypocritical when we claim that athletes should be expected to train for 6 hours every day and not get any "assistance" from pharmaceuticals. We do it every day when our lives are not as stressful and the stakes are not as high.

If you had to give a presentation that you stayed up all night for and you knew that without some magic "pill" you will be falling asleep and losing focus and the job will go to some other guy, you would take the pill, without thinking twice about whether it's fair or not to the other guy. So why are we so uptight about professional cyclists? Some of us have done all-out 9-hour races, and we know it's not the most natural human activity. I just did such race a few weeks ago and I have no idea how these guys do it every day for 3 weeks - never mind train for it.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

psi_co said:


> As long as dope provides better performance and thus more fun in doing what you do, which clearly is the performance! QUOTE]
> 
> IIRC, this was essentially the reason Voet gave in "Breaking the Chain" for the widespread use of drugs, i.e. the riders become addicted to the feeling of effortlessly pedaling up the cols and being able to drop their rivals, without the drugs, they hurt a lot a more and they're the ones getting dropped.


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## xcountry41 (Aug 20, 2005)

To me it's more about honesty, Integrity and sportsmanship. When Beckie Scott was getting beat in olympic and world cup cross country ski races By a train of 5 russian women. you knew that it was'nt just superior training programs. When the dopers were finally caught ,partlty due to her anti doping stance annd example, something finally just felt right when she won. Thank God she was able to feel that before her carreer ended. She deserved it , her parents deserved it and every young athlete that wants to live clean and see's her example deserved it. My son and daughter are U-17 XC and road racers,they deserve to see it can be done clean. If they can't, then as a parent I think the sport should die. I use sports in my parenting strategy to teach them good things, like not taking the easy way out. Killing an infection with penicillin is a completley different thing.


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## spyderman (Apr 29, 2002)

What will be the sport's reaction? How long will these riders be banned? Can cycling survive such a broad scandal involving its top cyclists? I feel sorry for the fans traveling to France expecting to see a great Tour. It's really sad.

Jan Ullrich must be thinking he'll never win a Tour. First, Lance's seven year reign and now Ullrich's hit with a doping scandal. Sad.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

walleyeangler said:


> What bunk! Penalties without trial? Guilt based on suspicion? This should never have happened this way. The finger should be pointed at a committee that seems unable to conduct its business professionally, without bias and back its actions with proof. Why not test them today? Those who fail don't ride tomorrow. Show up and test them in the morning, too. Tour de Farce. Totally unfortunate.



The Director Sportiffs of each team decided to toss their riders if they were associated with the scandal.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

spyderman said:


> Jan Ullrich must be thinking he'll never win a Tour.


You mean, never win another Tour. He's already won the Tour once.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> This stuff has been going on before LANCE arrived on the scene, while he was on the scene, and it will continue to go on after this affair. Simply put, doping has been accepted as OK by the riders since the inception of professional cycling. Only WADA and the media attention have turned doping into cheating. I think it's a bit naive to think these guys just now turned to doping to grab some glory in the post-LANCE era. Ullrich won the Tour at the height of unrestricted EPO use for Christ's sake. As long as riders need results to get a contract and team directors need results to secure sponsorship doping will exist. Clearly, the drug tests are not effective.


I wasn't making a generalism to the Lance effect...more so to these 2 riders and I choose to believe that they both haven't been doping for the last 7 years. I don't think that's naive. Look at Basso and Ullrich...one gradually getting better and the other in and out of form...both looking very IN form this year. That's all I meant.

Definitely...the test are not even close to working...such a shame that the sport has come to this. Now I just assume most of the guys in the peloton are doping...


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