# coaching expectations unlrealistic?



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

I started working with my current coach in May. He's a very experienced masters Cat 3. Charges $50 per month. Every week or two weeks, he emails me workouts for the next week or two. 

I typically commute to work by bike 3-4 times per week, 13 miles each way, and then have time for a long ride on weekends, usually Sunday. I had asked that he try to design workouts around this format.

My goals were to complete an uphill time trial in mid September in a certain time/power, as well as complete a 10 mile tt around that time at a certain power. I did a 10 mile tt at the beginning of our working together in mid May, and my average power in a full tt position/bike was about 270 watts. I said I'd like to shoot for as close to 300 watts as I could by September for the climbing tt, which takes about 45 minutes, and the 10 mile tt. Then, move back to base mode for next spring.

I have an SRM, and offered to upload my data files for his review on a weekly basis. My understanding is that the primary usefulness of a power meter is this, to show the coach exactly what you did. Seeing the file, with all the nuances, is not the same as just knowing the average results for the ride.

I started getting workouts. Typically, it was like:

Mon: commute easy or rest
Tues: off
Wed: commute, include 2x20 minute ME (muscle endurance) at 230 watts
Thurs: off
Fri: commute, include 2x20 minute ME at 230 watts
Sat: off
Sun: 4-5 hours, including 1x40 minute climb at 230 watts

These same workouts came weekly, with only minor variations, until a few weeks ago, when it changed to 2x15 minute SE at 230, and a minor variation on the 40 minute climb (yes, we have huge hills here); same workouts week after week.

He also prescribed doing some light squats, which I have done.

I asked about doing a power profile, as I felt my strength was excellent (frequently hitting over 1200 watts on accellerations on my commute). He just asked about my historical sprinting abilities (good), and said no, it would do no good.

Just kept getting the same workouts every week. They would arrive first thing Monday morning, before I had a chance to communicate the prior weeks results. I typically emailed at least an image of a graph of my Sunday ride. I asked whether it might be more beneficial for him to wait to prescribe workouts until he saw my report of the prior week, but he did not respond. To me, it seemed important to consider feedback on how things were going.

I asked about him looking at my data files again, but he said his WKO license only allowed 2 riders, and it was consumed with his and another coached rider. So, he's never actually looked at any of my SRM files, but only a screenshot of a graph. No power over time, and all that other stuff that WKO does.

Getting a little frustrated. While $50 is cheap, I'd rather not just throw the money down the toilet. After 10 years plus of racing everything from short time trials to road races to a 508 mile race, I could probably do just as well on my own.

Any thoughts on this situation? Am I getting what I should expect for $50 a month? My belief is that I'd rather pay more and have a coach actually look at my data files, giving analysis and feedback, and working with me on some testing to see where my strengths and weaknesses are. A little variation and creativity would be nice, too, not the exact same workouts for two months straight. Oh, and there's been no consultation on nutrition, weight loss, stretching/flexibility, bike fit, or anything like that. 

Thanks.


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

If you bought a $3K power meter, don't cheap out on a coach who won't help you learn to use it. I'd look for a coach who knows about and plans to use performance manager with you.

All that ME and SE stuff should be a red flag (at least for the PM crowd). Cadence is a red herring.

If you want to be putting out 300w for 40 minutes in a month, when are you going to start at least doing 2x20s near there? Working at 75% of threshold is GREAT for building a base, but IME it takes longer than a month to turn that aerobic bank account into top speed fitness. If you want I'll e-mail you my build for Sattley two years ago. 

But that's all second guessing your coach's particular plan, and I know that's not the question you asked.

In sum, yeah, I don't think you are working with the right guy to exploit your equipment. There are lots of coaches out there who are working with power but they aren't working for $50 a month (I'd think more like $150-250 depending on level of personalized attention).


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*thanks -- this isn't working*

Yes, with all that ME (low cadence) and no threshold work, my cadence, and I think my power, too, has been falling. Great for base, but I'm wanting to get beyond that. In May I timetrialed at 95 rpms average, including the start and turn around, but now I'm stuck in the low 80's. I keep thinking, "when am I going to work hard?" and I hate to start doing something that's not prescribed while I'm paying for the advice.

Did a 10 mile tt last night. Since I averaged 270 in May, I tried averaging 280 for the first half, thinking I should have made that much progress by now. Completely blew up and ended up at 231 over all, even with my heart rate going off the chart. Something is not working.

Would love to see your workouts. Take all the help I can get.

In any event, I assume you agree that to take advantage of a power meter, the coach really needs to see and analyze the actual files? 

Thanks.






shawndoggy said:


> If you bought a $3K power meter, don't cheap out on a coach who won't help you learn to use it. I'd look for a coach who knows about and plans to use performance manager with you.
> 
> All that ME and SE stuff should be a red flag (at least for the PM crowd). Cadence is a red herring.
> 
> ...


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

Fixed said:


> Would love to see your workouts. Take all the help I can get.
> 
> In any event, I assume you agree that to take advantage of a power meter, the coach really needs to see and analyze the actual files?
> 
> Thanks.


Yes, with the caveat that it's still voodoo -- trying to apply "this usually works" principles with a sample size of one. 

When I've had a coach the biggest value for me personally has been qualitative, not quantitative. It's not that the coach can read my numbers and see something I don't. It's more like he believes that I can achieve something that I cannot hope to believe. There's a certain peace in being able to turn my training over to someone else ... I don't have to think, to plan, to worry... just to perform the impossible that this guy says I can do.

I'll e-mail ya the crappy pdf that was my plan to the e-mail you use for the wattage list.


----------



## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Screw the equipment you own (which BTW is very nice, and makes me jealous) - if your workouts haven't really changed since May that guy is just taking your money. Your workouts should start working different zones as the season progresses, and your main goal for the season gets closer.

Seems like a lot of time off as well, instead of recovery rides. Just my opinion.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Fixed said:


> My belief is that I'd rather pay more and have a coach actually look at my data files, giving analysis and feedback, and working with me on some testing to see where my strengths and weaknesses are.


In that case as a minimum the coach should have a USCF coaching certification with the certified power based coach designation. It's not that someone can't be competent without them, but if someone takes coaching seriously as a profession, then he or she should want to show this level of training.


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2008)

For $50 a month I will gladly mail anyone the same training plan over and over while not looking at any of their data. For $100 I will even shuffle the order in which the workouts fall in a given week.


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

asgelle said:


> In that case as a minimum the coach should have a USCF coaching certification with the certified power based coach designation. It's not that someone can't be competent without them, but if someone takes coaching seriously as a profession, then he or she should want to show this level of training.


+1. If that is not the case, make sure they are familiar with WKO+ and have a degree in exercise physiology or the like. Not all coaches are USAC certified, but it helps to know that they are at least regulated by a governing body that (presumably) cares about its athletes.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Fixed said:


> Any thoughts on this situation? Am I getting what I should expect for $50 a month? My belief is that I'd rather pay more and have a coach actually look at my data files, giving analysis and feedback, and working with me on some testing to see where my strengths and weaknesses are. A little variation and creativity would be nice, too, not the exact same workouts for two months straight. Oh, and there's been no consultation on nutrition, weight loss, stretching/flexibility, bike fit, or anything like that.
> 
> Thanks.


I think your questions have been answered. Essentially your expectations aren't matched by the service/price point you are buying at.

$50/month isn't coaching. That's just cut n paste stuff.

Excellent knowledge of training and racing with power is an important element to get the most out of your training tools, as is a solid understanding of physiology as it pertains to cycling training but I wouldn't say a physiology degree was absolutely necessary.

But there is more to coaching than a knowledge of the tools. Communication style and professionalism are very important elements to consider.

Suggest you consider alternative options and interview prospective coaches. Talk to some of their clients as well to see what they think.

One of the really powerful things about using the power meter data is the ability to work with someone anywhere is the world.


----------



## STARNUT (Jun 19, 2005)

You need to make sure both you and your coaches goals are in line. Your coach needs to know exactly what your goals are, what your strengths and weakness are on _and_ off the bike, what your expectations of them are, what their expectations of your are, etc etc.

I'm a Level II coach with said power cert and I turn down "cases" all the time. The things I really look for is a good work ethic, willingness to adopt new things, open communicator/honest, drive to do well, and check to see if the rest of their life is in order without getting to personal.

I turn down more stuff because they just want be to cut and paste them a workout plan together and email it over without giving any feed back to how the previous week went and how they "feel" currently (tired, sore, super, fast, slow). I have an actual job and don't coach a lot of athletes (5 at most and have had 8 at a time). So the doing it is not about the $$$. I have two now that I only charge $20 a month but they are highschool/college kids, with no money, and no parents to give them money. Both are promising and have the ability to be a competitive Cat 1 racer on a national level. I only ask them to be open and tell me if something ain't right or if they need to cut back for school or.......... whatever. Since my time is limited (hey, I train too ) I want to make sure I can do the most amount of good with that limited time. My goal is to get them to a point where they don't need me anymore and can coach themselves. Unlike a lot of professional coaches, I feel you can be self coach if you can remain objective all the time. With the new softwear its pretty easy to see where you are at any point in time. My certs came from my wanting to coach my self. I never actually considered coaching others until someone asked me to.

Some people can do it others can not; you have to be pretty self-motivated to coach yourself.

Starnut


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

STARNUT said:


> you have to be pretty self-motivated to coach yourself.


and sometimes I see that self motivation lead to the wrong sort of training, over training or a mis-guided emphasis on certain elements.

As a professional coach, I still have a coach myself (Ric Stern) and several of my clients are professional coaches. For me it's about ensuring objectivity and accountability, and being focussed on executing rather than worrying about the plan. And having another (valued) opinion can really help.

Like Starnut, I don't do the cut n paste stuff, even though there seems to be a demand for it. Indeed I have the tools to very easily produce a plan based on training availability, performance test results and primary goals but that's not coaching and it's coaching I enjoy.


----------

