# Im not liking the tour this year....



## pr0230 (Jun 4, 2004)

Now dont get me wrong... The action today was stunning , exciting, and had be glued to the tv.... but adding the Classic type of riding (coble stones, dirt, crashes) mixing it up is great.... BUT FOR THE ONE DAY CLASSICS.... NOT FOR THE TOUR

Lets say, Andy , lance and contador crash out.... exciting yes... but I dont get to see them in the mountains.... I want the typical boring flat stages for the sprinters and mountain stages for the GC.... 

I dont want to watch the paris roubiax during the TOUR! 

Let the debate begin!


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## Speedi Pig (Apr 18, 2004)

A. Schleck made a comment this morning in his pre-race interview that cobbles don't belong in the Tour. Phil/Paul expressed disagreement saying that the best all around rider should win the Tour.

While I agree with the comment about the best all around rider, I think Schleck has a point as there is too great a chance that random events on the cobbles could have too big an influence over the final GC. Armstrong today is a perfect example losing 50 seconds to AC due to a puncture on the cobbles. Also, F. Schleck is out due to a crash. Sure there are going to be crashes, but that doesn't mean the course should be designed to produce them.

I think being the best all around rider means having the most natural talent and developing strenths and minimizing weakness versus avoiding incidents that are basically random...yes, you can practice cobbles and stay at the front to minimize risk, but luck is still a huge part of the equation.

Congrats to A Schleck and AC for great rides on the pave' today.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I Kinda agree

the spring classics are for the hardmen.

GC contenders tend to be skinny climbers who can TT. Not the same build and goal in the race.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

We are back to normal tomorrow, except for some key players. Hopefully tomorrow is a rest day for the wounded except for Tyler who would like to be sprinting.


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

I feel just the opposite. I find most TDFs dull and uninspired. If it's flat stage, there are four sprinters that will likely get the win. If it is brutally mountainous, then only three or four climbers have a shot. Thanks to radios, 99.5% of all breakaways fail. In the end, the best climber that can stay out of trouble on the flatter stuff and rides a better than average TT wins. Snooooze...

Look at this year's Giro. That was one of the most wide open and unpredictable grand tours ever. Fans enjoyed three full weeks of drama rather than watching an LA or AC type rider put it to bed with four or fives stages remaining. 

Cobbled stages, steep climbing ITT, dirt road sections. Give me more of that, please. After seeing the uphill TT at the Giro, I'd love to see a short but steep climbing TTT to really shake things up at a grand tour.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Mixing it up is good. It gives a chance to riders who usually do not feature in the boring flat stages or mountain stages.
Everyone knew that this years tour had cobbles. If a rider had concerns, they had long enough to train and get used to the conditions.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Speedi Pig said:


> A. Schleck made a comment this morning in his pre-race interview that cobbles don't belong in the Tour. Phil/Paul expressed disagreement saying that the best all around rider should win the Tour.
> 
> While I agree with the comment about the best all around rider, I think Schleck has a point as there is too great a chance that random events on the cobbles could have too big an influence over the final GC. Armstrong today is a perfect example losing 50 seconds to AC due to a puncture on the cobbles. Also, F. Schleck is out due to a crash. Sure there are going to be crashes, but that doesn't mean the course should be designed to produce them.
> 
> ...


I generally agree with Andy Schleck. Can you imagine if most of the top contenders, top climbers were knocked out before the mountain stages? It's one thing to say the winner should be a complete rider, but another to set it up to be merely a race of attrition and luck rather than the "courage" that is so often cited as characteristic of winners.


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## petalpower (Aug 10, 2009)

I liked the cobbles of today, and wish there would be more. Heck, throw some dirt roads in there too.

I haven't been into cycling for long ( just got my first road bike last August, and started racing a few months ago ), but IMHO, when I look at videos of the TdF of years ago, and it's beginings, it seems as if the race has lost some of it's hardiness.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Tour de France = Tour of France. Include all types of roads, etc. The best overall guy wins. HTFU. That's all.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

After watching this year's giro, which I have to say was one of the most exciting to watch in a long time, that I would have to disagree. The tour is trying to eliminate the very thing that has been labelled of it in the past. Boring, typical racing. Thats why the tour organizers went to visit the giro to take notes. 

As everyone has noted, today was epic & I for one was glued to the screen. Its always up to the racer's to make a race what it is. If they're presented with the same old flat stages where everyone just cruises along for the first 4 hrs & then picks it up in the last 1.5 hrs to catch some breakaway before the final 2k to go, then thats the type of racing you will get all the time. Boring. 

Crashes happen all the time. Thats part of racing. Emotions were running pretty high yesterday, but in reality that course is the same one that they do in the spring every year. I for one like what I'm seeing this year thus far. Really great racing.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Pluses and minuses.

But, so much chatter was going on about "_gee might as well skip watching the first week or so of the Tour, it's going to be boring"._

Well, there's been more Tour action packed into the first three days than we sometimes see in three weeks.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

pr0230 said:


> Now dont get me wrong... The action today was stunning , exciting, and had be glued to the tv.... but adding the Classic type of riding (coble stones, dirt, crashes) mixing it up is great.... BUT FOR THE ONE DAY CLASSICS.... NOT FOR THE TOUR
> 
> Lets say, Andy , lance and contador crash out.... exciting yes... but I dont get to see them in the mountains.... I want the typical boring flat stages for the sprinters and mountain stages for the GC....
> 
> ...


If Andy, Lance and Contador were all crashed out I would agree with you. But it was "only" Frank Schleck, and this kind of crash could have happened on any stage, cobbles or not. And let's not forget that his teammates Andy Schleck and Fabian Cancellara benefited from the cobbles, so it goes both ways. 

I think cobbles provide for an interesting, albeit somewhat unpredictable, element to the Tour, and in grand scheme of things it was a good thing.


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## sjhiker (May 14, 2010)

If someone wants to claim they are the best rider in the TdF, then they should be the best rider, no matter what the conditions (road or weather). They knew they would be on cobbles, so train on cobbles and put on tires that are more suited towards cobbles. Just like they know there are hills coming, so they train for hills. They know there are long stages, so they train for those.

If it rains, sleets or snows, flat roads, hills. Long straightaways or peloton splitting rotaries.

They can complain all they want, but really, I don't want to hear:

"It was too bumpy"
"It was too hot"
"It was too windy"
"it was too wet"
"It was too dry"


In every sport or competition there is an aspect of luck to it. Some were unlucky today and got a flat, others got dirt kicked up by the rider in front of them and it got in their eye.

To quote the movie Dodgeball (with cameo by Lance):

*Lance Armstrong*: Could I get a bottle of water. - - Hey, aren't you Peter La Fleur?
*Peter La Fleur*: Lance Armstrong!
*Lance Armstrong:* Yeah, that's me. But I'm a big fan of yours.
*Peter La Fleur:* Really?
*Lance Armstrong:* Yeah, I've been watching the dodgeball tournament on the Ocho. ESPN 8. I just can't get enough of it. But, good luck in the tournament. I'm really pulling for you against those jerks from Globo Gym. I think you better hurry up or you're gonna be late.
*Peter La Fleur:* Uh, actually I decided to quit... Lance.
*Lance Armstrong:* Quit? You know, once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit. So what are you dying from that's keeping you from the finals?
*Peter La Fleur*: Right now it feels a little bit like... shame.
*Lance Armstrong:* Well, I guess if a person never quit when the going got tough, they wouldn't have anything to regret for the rest of their life. But good luck to you Peter. I'm sure this decision won't haunt you forever.​


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I agree that the mix thus far has made this something of a decathlon for cyclists with different conditions bringing out different (and sometimes surprising) strengths and weaknesses. As a fan, it's been compelling to watch. 

I do see the point made by some cyclists, though, that the level of difficulty (i.e. danger) comes at a high price for them. The rumor is next week includes a course with a rope bridge. Once the GC men are safely over, the bridge will be lit on fire...who won't make it before the bridge collapses??? Stay tuned... 

While I have the utmost respect for these riders and what they do, for those that complain my question would be: what did you expect? This is the most prestigious bike race in the world. You've known about this course and its condition for nearly a year. Chances are pretty good that you have ridden or at least been driven over every part of it. You likely fought to earn a spot on whatever team you're on to earn the privilege of being here. You have teammates that would cut off an appendage to have your spot. If you didn't, then you likely had the mojo to decline a slot if you wanted to. Just ride the race and do the best you can each day.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Speedi Pig said:


> A. Schleck made a comment this morning in his pre-race interview that cobbles don't belong in the Tour. Phil/Paul expressed disagreement saying that the best all around rider should win the Tour.


My guess is that P&P made those comments under the assumption that the outcome would favor their golden child. Watch for them to do an about face on this topic during tomorrow's commentary.


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## LesDiablesRouges (Jul 17, 2009)

Hrmm let me see what would the greatest rider ever think about the cobbles ...


Yeah Eddy Merckx would have embraced the cobbles and would have won the damn stage .. 

3x winner of Paris Roubaix

Cobbles in TDF ... absolument 

You want to be the best you do it flat, cobbled, hills, mountain and time trial.

There's no question he was the greatest ever he was the equivalent of Cancellara, Armstrong (in his prime) and Cavendish all wrapped in one.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

Omega-Pharma directeur sportif Roberto Damiani said it best "Riders who don't want to race in these conditions ought to ask themselves whether they'd rather go and spend their day in a factory,"
From cyclingnews.com


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

i like how they mix it up a bit and make it a more diverse race, but i don't like the crashing. Crashes are expected and smart riders know how to survive in any condition, but occasionally you just get those routes that are tough and you combine them with bad weather and it becomes a race of luck.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

maybe everyone should view it as a way for riders to back to being riders, like mercks and kelly's time where they actually raced the cobbles...the mini tours..the GT's...the WC...and everything else in between.

Before the days of specialisation like _indurain _in the tour, and more recently like armstrong, or say the notion of cobbled specialists at all?

A rider should be a complete rider, a complete rider should win the tour

down with the days of:

week 1 = sprinters/TT
week 2 = tour riders mountains
week 3 = TT/sprinters


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

May the best man win. 

I like the mixing in of the cobbles. The mountains are predictable in my view. We all know who the favorites are and that it will come down to the stick guy winning. With the cobbles thrown in you actually have to be a tough rider and have your wits about you.


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## velopediadominati (Apr 11, 2010)

I like the fact that it mixes it up. Climbers who lose on the cobbles---- have to go harder in the mountains to make it up. I would have liked to see Contador lose 2 or 3 minutes more and see if he could "climb his way" out of it. Today was awesome. A COBBLE STAGE each and EVERY year should be MANDATORY. Next year they should make the second to last stage a cobble stage with possibilities of rearranging the standings.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MarshallH1987 said:


> i like how they mix it up a bit and make it a more diverse race, but i don't like the crashing. Crashes are expected and smart riders know how to survive in any condition, but occasionally you just get those routes that are tough and you combine them with bad weather and it becomes a race of luck.


My thoughts exactly. Armstrong apparently got a puncture. CVV and Frank Schleck crash out (among plenty of others). 

I might be fine with this late in the Tour, but early on seems to just be picking off unlucky riders. I realize stuff happens, but this is getting a shade obscene.


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## Mordy (Aug 30, 2006)

I think the organizers mixed it up with these selections in order to shake things up. They want the tour to be more than just rider x vs rider y, and set the course to make it more open for more people to have chances, even if its trough attrition. 

So far, fun to watch, if a bit gory. I've seen a lot of blood and flaps of skin on HD.


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## Kaleo (Jun 15, 2008)

I think it's pretty easy for me to sit here and say yeah, I like the idea of mixing it up to see who's really the "best" it makes for an interesting race. As some of the racers have expressed that they are not so sure the "cobbles" have a place in the Tour, and it places them in unecessary danger. 

But if we (the fans) weren't watching, they really wouldn't be racing at all. They are paid by their sponsors to race, if they are not challenged then the same guys win all the time. No fun in that, people would stop watching, sponsors would stop supporting the sport. And for a sport that isn't very well understood outside of Europe, it wouldn't be very good for it. So in the end, I say mix it up. Racers are always going to look for ways to improve their abilities... any way...


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

The cobbles are nice and let's face it, it's no where the same level of challenge as a springs classic. Still, makes for interesting shake ups.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

I'd much rather see cobbles than a TTT, and I also think it makes for a better race.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Mordy said:


> So far, fun to watch, if a bit gory. I've seen a lot of blood and flaps of skin on HD.


I take zero joy in watching crashes. Any racer (who have 99% of the time crashed themselves at one point) doesn't take any pleasure in such a thing.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

it's a tour of France. Are there cobbles in France?

People complained the giro was dull until they started doing some slick stages. Remember the ITT up a dirt hill? riders have protested some of the giro stages, but they also shorten them when the weather frowns on themm.


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## sjhiker (May 14, 2010)

The general public loves to see crashes in NASCAR, and they also love to see fights break out in hockey.


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## stealthman_1 (May 2, 2004)

Why not just eliminate all rain days, all hard corners, road paint, sidewalks, dogs, Normandy, and just ITT up Alpe d'Huez three times?
This is shaping up to be the most exciting tour in...well since the last time they hit the cobbles. Coincidence? Maybe.


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## Wildcat5957 (Feb 12, 2010)

nate said:


> I'd much rather see cobbles than a TTT, and I also think it makes for a better race.



I would like to see a TT over the cobbles.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

As much as I love seeing the race up the mountains, I get tried of only the climbers having a chance for the GC. This years Giro was the most enjoyable GT I have seen. The Tour may be headed the same way.


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## ronbo613 (Jan 19, 2009)

> Tour de France = Tour of France. Include all types of roads, etc. The best overall guy wins.


I agree. Ride all the Euro roads under all Euro weather conditions. Mountains, ITT, cobbles; let's see the best cyclists in the world tested under all conditions. Sure it's going to be tough, but how satisfied is the winner of this year's Tour going to be?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

From a commercial viewpoint it wouldn't be in the sponsors best interest if the top GC men and sprinters all bought it in the first week. But hey, why should I give rat's arse about the money men? If you're good enough you're good enough. LA didn't complain (to his credit) nor did Wiggins ( a possible contender). Explain to me how any rider has some entitlement to victory just because he's a former champion/a poster boy for armchair fans who know nothing about the sport/ has trained super hard and foregone the Giro or a few classics to win the TDF? To finish first, first you gotta finish. I'm tired of just a few mountain stages virtually deciding the race year in year out.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm sad that Lance lost out, but damn was that an awesome stage!

They need to add more crazy stages that push the riders' abilities in different ways. Like a year or two ago when the crosswinds tore the group apart. That was excellent!


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I look forward to seeing the stages every night - even though I already know the outcomes.
While no fan of crashes (and there sure have been a lot), I have to agree that the difficult conditions has made this a more interesting Tour.
If the Tour stuck to it's well known formula, iy would become too boring and predictable and would find itself being eclipsed by the Giro (which was amazing this year).


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## biketyke (Sep 4, 2008)

If today's racers had to run the old routes, they would not get in the saddle.
The cobblestones are part of the race. 

Only one thing to change perhaps is that the bikes of old were a bit longer wheel base and would handle the rough stuff with more aplomb.


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## davcruz (Oct 9, 2007)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Pluses and minuses.
> 
> But, so much chatter was going on about "_gee might as well skip watching the first week or so of the Tour, it's going to be boring"._
> 
> Well, there's been more Tour action packed into the first three days than we sometimes see in three weeks.


Well said. I think they need another day of pave' toward the end too!


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Whaaaaa....cobbles.....whaaaa...no radios....whaaaaa.....other riders arent racing/riding the way *I* want them to.

I dunno....These guys go through hell and all but they do seem to chirp a lot. If I see "Spartacus" roll his eyes or throw up his hands one more time Im going to fly to France and slap him myself. 

Sure...he will then pummel me and Ill wind up in a French clink for the night, but Ill get my point across....lol.


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## J24 (Oct 8, 2003)

RkFast said:


> Whaaaaa....cobbles.....whaaaa...no radios....whaaaaa.....other riders arent racing/riding the way *I* want them to.
> 
> I dunno....These guys go through hell and all but they do seem to chirp a lot. If I see "Spartacus" roll his eyes or throw up his hands one more time Im going to fly to France and slap him myself.
> 
> Sure...he will then pummel me and Ill wind up in a French clink for the night, but Ill get my point across....lol.


Thor may beat you to it, and I hope he does after Spartacus screwed him by neutalizing stage 2.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

J24 said:


> Thor may beat you to it, and I hope he does after Spartacus screwed him by neutalizing stage 2.


Im a huge Cancellara fanboy, but man....when hes driving his attitude seems to get a bit...dooshy. Even during the neutralization, at the line an AG2R rider seemed to just drift in front of the pack at the line...he certainly wasnt "attacking" or making any kind of move....and Fabian still went nuts on him.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

> Im not liking the tour this year


neither is Cav - that is all


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Kaleo said:


> I think it's pretty easy for me to sit here and say yeah, I like the idea of mixing it up to see who's really the "best" it makes for an interesting race. As some of the racers have expressed that they are not so sure the "cobbles" have a place in the Tour, and it places them in unecessary danger.
> 
> But if we (the fans) weren't watching, they really wouldn't be racing at all. They are paid by their sponsors to race, if they are not challenged then the same guys win all the time. No fun in that, people would stop watching, sponsors would stop supporting the sport. And for a sport that isn't very well understood outside of Europe, it wouldn't be very good for it. So in the end, I say mix it up. Racers are always going to look for ways to improve their abilities... any way...


Any fan of the classics, loved yesterday's stage. In fact I would like to see the ASO include a Flanders like stage as well. The skinny guys will get their chance come the mountains. The thing I hated the most in the past was when someone like McEwen would rack up 3 wins in the first week.

Imagine this: A short time trial that includes going up the Koppenberg or the Kapelmuur. Who wins, someone like Contador or Boonen?


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

I think if they are going to add the cobbles they need to get over the "motor in the bike" hysteria and allow bike replacement from the sidelines.

It's not just that Lance flatted (and he was ahead of AC at this point lets not forget), but that the race organizers restricted replacement bikes to those on the team cars because they were concerned about illegal bikes being slipped in. 

So LA's flat turned into a bit of a disaster--one team-mate gives up a wheel (one fewer to pace you back), and you drop well over a minute on GC because of slow response from the support car.

Let them go back to having replacements available on the cobble sections...otherwise it is equipment roulette that will decide the GC results.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

paredown said:


> I think if they are going to add the cobbles they need to get over the "motor in the bike" hysteria and allow bike replacement from the sidelines.
> 
> It's not just that Lance flatted (and he was ahead of AC at this point lets not forget), but that the race organizers restricted replacement bikes to those on the team cars because they were concerned about illegal bikes being slipped in.
> 
> ...


In either Flanders or Roubaix, if your bike fails for any reason except a flat in a cobbled section, it's more or less game over. Team cars can't get to you on these sectors because it's just too narrow. Just ask Cancellara what happened during Flanders 2009 edition. On open road however anyone can change their bikes. Besides why would team cars carry a half dozen bikes on the roof if changes were not allowed?


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

MG537 said:


> In either Flanders or Roubaix, if your bike fails for any reason except a flat in a cobbled section, it's more or less game over. Team cars can't get to you on these sectors because it's just too narrow. Just ask Cancellara what happened during Flanders 2009 edition. On open road however anyone can change their bikes. Besides why would team cars carry a half dozen bikes on the roof if changes were not allowed?


We all understand on a one-day classic--it's make or break. GC racing over multiple days is a bit different. You shouldn't in effect be penalized in GC standing if the course selection makes traditional TdF support unworkable.

What had been suggested and vetoed by the organizers (because of the fear of "illegal" bikes getting into the mix) was the stashing of replacement bikes on the sidelines in the cobble sections precisely because the team cars would have difficulty supporting their riders through those narrow sections, & this turned out to be the case for LA.

Of course replacements were allowed from the team car, just not from anyone else.


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## InfiniteLoop (Mar 20, 2010)

First time I've paid much attention to anything in the first week except the final 5 minutes. Bike racers and races are funded by sponsors, sponsors want people like you and me to watch and see their name on jerseys, bikes, commercials, signs, and sponsored segments on TV, cobbles made you and I watch and see sponsors name.

I hate to see crashes and I hated seeing CVV and FS finished, but I'd vote for more cobbled stages and less radios and whatever else can make the 18 non-mountaintop finishes more exciting.


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

biketyke said:


> If today's racers had to run the old routes, they would not get in the saddle.
> The cobblestones are part of the race.
> 
> Only one thing to change perhaps is that the bikes of old were a bit longer wheel base and would handle the rough stuff with more aplomb.


Yep, throw in a 40KM TTT after a 97KM stage the same day and have another 77KM TTT 3 days later and you'll have the peloton screaming like little girls.


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