# Wheels for fast/short rides



## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I’m new to these forums and would really appreciate some insights.

A few weeks ago I bought my first road bike, a Specialized Allez Expert EU version. It has an E5 frame (which is not the latest ‘Race’ frame) and mostly Ultegra parts. For the price a great bike with great parts, but of course the wheels are budget oriented (DT Axis 2.0).

I’m not new to bikes as I have ridden BMX and mountain bikes all my life, but a road bike is something new and I’m only starting to learn about wheels and such. Here I would appreciate some advice. 

I live in the Netherlands (i.e. very few hills) and train mostly fast, relatively short distances (one or two hours on the bike at most), a bit like time trails or triathlons as I also run a lot. This led me to have a look at possible deeper section wheels. The roads I ride are however mostly on the typically Dutch ***** and there crosswinds can be a bit of an issue, so my guess is the wheels can’t be too deep. What sort of wheels would be best for me to look at?

Budget-wise I think a set of Zipp 101’s would be as high as I would go. That’s around 1,200 euros and I think it would be similar in dollars. Ideally though I would like to keep it well under 1,000. One wheel set that looks good is the Vision Trimax T42, but I can find little about these wheels and don’t know many alternatives. 

Weight isn’t too much of an issue, reliability is as I don’t plan on changing the wheels if the weather is bad.

Thanks.
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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

What are you expecting to get from new wheels?


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

mikerp said:


> What are you expecting to get from new wheels?


Mostly I would like stiffer wheels, the DT Axis 2.0 wheels don't feel very stiff. Some aero advantage to help maintain speed would be nice as well as decent, smooth rolling hubs.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Zipps are way overpriced (although I don't know for a fact that's the case in Europe) and I don't know anything about the others you mentioned.

I've got nothing against factory wheels but with a particular want for stiff wheels you might want to talk to a wheel builder. Depending on your weight. If you're a lightweight then any decent wheel will probably do but if you're heavy and/or very powerful you might need something more than the 'average' wheels will give you.

Something like Hed C2 or H Plus Son Archetype rims with Dura Ace hubs and what ever spoke number and brand the builder thinks would get you the stiffness you want at your weight would be a good choice and would come in below you max budget. 
I think Dura Ace hubs build a pretty stiff wheel and the quality is great. Feels that way to me anyway. With you being in Europe......Royce, PMP and Goldtech are a few other hubs to check out if you want to get fancy and get something a little different but very high quality.


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## Whale_520 (Aug 16, 2012)

You're on the right track with that price range and alloy. One reason to stay away from the 101 is the 21mm width. I'm sure if you browse around this forum you can find a lot of riders that are very pleased with a wider rim. Like Jay suggested the H Plus Son and C2 are really good options. The C2 is extremely well made and the H+S Archetype is an extremely strong rim. The only other rim I'd add for you to think about is the SL23. It's a bit cheaper than the C2, builds similarly and isn't as heavy as the H+S. It's also a millimeter wider. For hubs I understand the loose ball bearing appeal of DA hubs and think that's a great choice. The other one to think about is a DT Swiss hub. They're serviceable worldwide with common tools and easy to find bearing sizes.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Should you decide to go the custom hand built route, I can hook you up with reputable builders in the Netherlands.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks for the replies!

I'm not very heavy but no lightweight either, around 76 kg (167 lbs). Don't know how strong I am compared to cyclists. I train multi-sport, mostly running, cycling and crossfit type trainings. So I'm strong, but not a specialist in cycling.

I have looked a bit at getting wheels built and it might be an option. Never heard of H Plus Son, so I don't know if they are available here but they look good. HED I do know, but only for their wheels. (The Jet 5 and Ardennes could be options.)

For hubs I would certainly look into Shimano, DT Swiss or Chris King. I think those are the most regular quality hubs out here.

How about deeper rims than the ones mentioned? Maybe 30 up to 45mm deep (H Plus Son SL42?). Those seem to offer some advantages for flat rides at speed. I've never used wheels like that, but maybe it would suit my riding style that is aimed at speed more than distance.

Mackers, do you know some websites where I can have a look at custom wheel options and possibly prices? Thanks!


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## Whale_520 (Aug 16, 2012)

Wyville said:


> I'm not very heavy but no lightweight either, around 76 kg (167 lbs). Don't know how strong I am compared to cyclists. I train multi-sport, mostly running, cycling and crossfit type trainings. So I'm strong, but not a specialist in cycling.


167 is not a problem with most wheels out there. Enjoy picking anything you'd like. 



Wyville said:


> I have looked a bit at getting wheels built and it might be an option. Never heard of H Plus Son, so I don't know if they are available here but they look good. HED I do know, but only for their wheels. (The Jet 5 and Ardennes could be options.)


Look around here for opinions on the HED Belgium C2s, you'll notice they're positive. The Ardennes are built with that rim so if you're looking for a complete wheelset and like that rim you could pull the trigger on those. Also the Pacenti SL23, the rim we helped design, has a European distributor, I believe they're in the UK. I couldn't imagine H PLUS SON not having a European presence. 



Wyville said:


> How about deeper rims than the ones mentioned? Maybe 30 up to 45mm deep (H Plus Son SL42?). Those seem to offer some advantages for flat rides at speed. I've never used wheels like that, but maybe it would suit my riding style that is aimed at speed more than distance.


The SL42 is a 19.5mm wide rim! Any advantages that you gain through the deeper rim are going to be lost with a rim that wide which will lead to a less than optimal tire shape. Go with the wider shapes and you'll be happy you did in cross winds, corners, and rough roads. The rim might be a bit less aerodynamic and definitely won't looks as aero but it will be a faster complete package once you consider the tire.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Sending you some addresses in a PM.

Doesn't seem right to plaster people's email addresses all over the Internet ;0)


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## mjduct (Jun 1, 2013)

look at these guys: FLO Cycling Home - Aerodynamic Cycling Wheels

very aero, carbon fairings on aluminum rims for good braking. And well within your budget...


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

Whale_520 said:


> 167 is not a problem with most wheels out there. Enjoy picking anything you'd like.


I didn't think it would be much of a problem and I might loose a few more lbs as my diet has not been as well balanced as it should be. 



Whale_520 said:


> Look around here for opinions on the HED Belgium C2s, you'll notice they're positive. The Ardennes are built with that rim so if you're looking for a complete wheelset and like that rim you could pull the trigger on those. Also the Pacenti SL23, the rim we helped design, has a European distributor, I believe they're in the UK. I couldn't imagine H PLUS SON not having a European presence.


I saw the Ardennes used the C2 yesterday. It will be interesting to see what is possible with a hand built set compared to the Ardennes. I also found H Plus Son on Dutch forums, so they should be available.

The Pacenti rims look nice too. Much to think about.



Whale_520 said:


> The SL42 is a 19.5mm wide rim! Any advantages that you gain through the deeper rim are going to be lost with a rim that wide which will lead to a less than optimal tire shape. Go with the wider shapes and you'll be happy you did in cross winds, corners, and rough roads. The rim might be a bit less aerodynamic and definitely won't looks as aero but it will be a faster complete package once you consider the tire.


So a higher rim will only make sense if the width is 23mm in order to get the tire shape more optimal? I can see how that makes sense.
How should I see higher, 23mm wide rims? Say, HED Jet 5 Express (54mm high, 23mm wide, 1,681g) on one end of the spectrum (in terms of price) and 3T Accelero 40 Pro (37mm high, 23mm wide, 1,725g) on the other end.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

mjduct said:


> look at these guys: FLO Cycling Home - Aerodynamic Cycling Wheels
> 
> very aero, carbon fairings on aluminum rims for good braking. And well within your budget...


I saw a review of the FLO 30 on a triathlon website a few days ago and the conclusions were very positive. I also understand these are very popular with FLO having trouble to keep up with demand. They certainly look very good, but I will need to see if they are available here. Importing directly from the US will increase the price by an obscene amount due to taxes.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

whitestone said:


> Hey Guys thanks for sharing all this information about the wheels.. It will be help me in my future because I also bought my new bike for my personal training and for body fitness..


What kind of bike did you buy?

I'm currently leaning towards the Vision Trimax T42 wheels. There isn't much information about them, but the few reviews I found all state the wheels are stiff, durable and offer a bit of aero advantage without being too sensitive to crosswinds. They also look really nice, of course.

If I decide to go for custom wheels instead I would probably have a look at the H Plus Son Archetype rims and DT Swiss 240s hubs. That would make a pretty good looking wheel.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

Sorry for bumping an older thread, but I had a question related to the discussion I had here.

I've looked at all the options and spoken with a wheel builder (thanks Mackers!) and am convinced a custom set is the way to go for me. Mostly because I like getting higher end hubs. It will be a set H plus Son Archetype rims, CX Ray spokes (24/28) and brass nippples, but I'm not sure yet about the hubs.

I have looked at three options so far; DT Swiss 240s, White Industies T11 and Goldtec road. I'm leaning towards the T11 hubs, but the 240s are (surprisingly) a cheaper option, a bit lighter and with the new 36t ratchet quick to engage. Goldtec seems great but is quite a bit more expensive. What do you guys think? Any other hubs I should consider?


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I would go with WI hubs.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

For the price the T11s are a steal. That is a solid hubset especially now that the flange spacing has been improved.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

Seems to be a pretty universal preference. I was leaning towards the T11 hubs myself and the builder had a soft spot for them too. I guess that makes the choice a lot easier. Thanks!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Wyville said:


> Seems to be a pretty universal preference. I was leaning towards the T11 hubs myself and the builder had a soft spot for them too. I guess that makes the choice a lot easier. Thanks!


With your goal being to get a stiffer wheel you should ask the builder which hub will result in the stiffer wheel. I do not know the answer to that but I doubt it's the T11 especially if you don't have a need to 11 speed compatibility.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> With your goal being to get a stiffer wheel you should ask the builder which hub will result in the stiffer wheel. I do not know the answer to that but I doubt it's the T11 especially if you don't have a need to 11 speed compatibility.


^^^^^ this.

The answer is there for the asking but most dont. 

Run the Spocalc spreadsheet with the hub geometry and look at the bracing angles and since you are at it, calulate the NDS tension based on the tension ratio output. Then you could make an educated decision on which hub fits your needs best.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

Is that also true for the improved version of the T11?
I'm also using a 24/28 spoke count instead of the 20/24 I initially wanted to aid stiffness and the Archetype rim itself is pretty stiff too. 

I have to wait a bit to see what kind of budget I end up with. The Goldtec hubs will probably build a stiffer wheel, but are more expensive.

I will discuss it in more detail with the builder. Thanks!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Wyville said:


> Is that also true for the improved version of the T11?
> I'm also using a 24/28 spoke count instead of the 20/24 I initially wanted to aid stiffness and the Archetype rim itself is pretty stiff too.


T-11 : 7 deg L bracing angle, 49% tension ratio => stiffer but with lower NDS tension

DT 240 : 6.5 deg br. angle, 52% tension ratio => higher NDS tension but not as stiff

Based on:
588 ERD and x3 lacing.
T-11 hub offsets @ 17/35 (not 18/35; dimensions need to be further verified with actual measurement).
DT 240 hub offsets @ 16.9/32.6

As far as spokes are concerned, higher number of sturdier spokes will increase stiffness.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> T-11 : 7 deg L bracing angle, 49% tension ratio => stiffer but with lower NDS tension
> 
> DT 240 : 6.5 deg br. angle, 52% tension ratio => higher NDS tension but not as stiff
> 
> ...


Thanks, a bit too technical for me though. Had a quick look at the spreadsheet and think I will leave it up to the professionals to advise me.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Wyville said:


> Thanks, a bit too technical for me though. Had a quick look at the spreadsheet and think I will leave it up to the professionals to advise me.


Dont get overwhelmed with the numbers. The principles are simple.

The average recreational rider will do best selecting a hub with geeometry favoring higher NDS tension (read: more durable).

The racer will typically do best selecting a hub with geometry favoring lateral stiffness (read: higher efficiency in power transfer)

There are excemptions, as always with everything cycling related, but the above IMO is roughly all there is to it.

Time after time I see post from people agonizing over the use of 4 more or less spokes while being totaly indifferent about the effects of the hub geometry to the wheel. IMO, the hub is the heart of the wheel and that is where one needs to start the wheel component selection optimization from.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> Dont get overwhelmed with the numbers. The principles are simple.
> 
> The average recreational rider will do best selecting a hub with geeometry favoring higher NDS tension (read: more durable).
> 
> ...


Thanks again.

I will ask specifically for these issues. Lateral stiffness is more important for me as I ride short and fast rides. Because I also run and train strength I don't do a lot of miles so durability isn't as high a priority.

Also thinking about maybe using Kinlin XR 380 rims instead of the Archetype rims. Might make a stiffer wheel more suitable for my type of riding.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Wyville said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> I will ask specifically for these issues. Lateral stiffness is more important for me as I ride short and fast rides. Because I also run and train strength I don't do a lot of miles so durability isn't as high a priority.
> 
> Also thinking about maybe using Kinlin XR 380 rims instead of the Archetype rims. Might make a stiffer wheel more suitable for my type of riding.


The 380s will be plenty stiff but plenty heavy as well. They will be slower to accelerate but after they do they will keep their speed. At your weight of 167 lbs, I don't believe you absolutely need to go to such an extreme considering that you have not indicated anything significantly different about your riding style (i.e. pronounced side to side motion when out of the saddle) that would necessitate such action.

The Hed C2 or the Archetype with 28 spokes will build to a plenty stiff wheel specially when laced to a hub of suitable geometry. If you want to dial it a bit further, changing the cx-rays to race will add stiffness to the wheel but at the expense of some loss on aero performance (which loss, IMO, will be very difficult to detect)

I think you may be over thinking this thing. There will always be trade-offs in wheel performance because getting more on a virtue requires giving up a portion of another.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> The 380s will be plenty stiff but plenty heavy as well. They will be slower to accelerate but after they do they will keep their speed. At your weight of 167 lbs, I don't believe you absolutely need to go to such an extreme considering that you have not indicated anything significantly different about your riding style (i.e. pronounced side to side motion when out of the saddle) that would necessitate such action.
> 
> The Hed C2 or the Archetype with 28 spokes will build to a plenty stiff wheel specially when laced to a hub of suitable geometry. If you want to dial it a bit further, changing the cx-rays to race will add stiffness to the wheel but at the expense of some loss on aero performance (which loss, IMO, will be very difficult to detect)
> 
> I think you may be over thinking this thing. There will always be trade-offs in wheel performance because getting more on a virtue requires giving up a portion of another.


Thanks again. It's not that I'm over thinking things with some particular aim. I don't race and will likely be happy which ever way I go, I just enjoy thinking about the options and would like to end up with something that will suit my wishes as best as possible.

The main reason to emphasize stiffness is that my current wheels, DT Axis 2.0, are quite flimsy and hit the brakes every now and then. That probably won't happen with either the archetype or the Kinlin 380. I also prefer a wheel that maintains speed well because that is the type of riding I do. I never coast, always flat out.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Another choice between the 380 and the Archetype is the Kinlin XC279 at 23x28.

I believe you will be fine with either of the last two when laced on a suitable hub.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> Another choice between the 380 and the Archetype is the Kinlin XC279 at 23x28.


I've seen that one. It's also an option.



dcgriz said:


> I believe you will be fine with either of the last two when laced on a suitable hub.


Spoke to a builder and he said the German Acros .54 hubs are good options for a stiffer build. With Kinlin 380 rims the wheels would be 1,600g, which I think is pretty light for a 38mm alloy rim. Most factory wheels at that depth are closer to 1,750g.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Wyville said:


> Spoke to a builder and he said the German Acros .54 hubs are good options for a stiffer build. With Kinlin 380 rims the wheels would be 1,600g, which I think is pretty light for a 38mm alloy rim. Most factory wheels at that depth are closer to 1,750g.


Not familiar with the Across but you could check their expected performance through Spocalc. 

Your wheel weight estimation seems a bit off to me. My estimate with 24/28 CX-rays and alum nipples comes to 1374 gr excluding hubs and skewers. This leaves 226 grams for both hubs/skewers which I think is not a realistic expectation or, at least, does not match with the published weight of the Across 54. 
It seems to me the 1600 gr expectation is off by about 130-150 grams even if ti skewers are used.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> Not familiar with the Across but you could check their expected performance through Spocalc.


The builder listed the various hub options in order of their geometry lending them to a stiffer wheel build. The Acros would build stiffer than Tune Mig70/Mag170.



dcgriz said:


> Your wheel weight estimation seems a bit off to me. My estimate with 24/28 CX-rays and alum nipples comes to 1374 gr excluding hubs and skewers. This leaves 226 grams for both hubs/skewers which I think is not a realistic expectation or, at least, does not match with the published weight of the Across 54.
> It seems to me the 1600 gr expectation is off by about 130-150 grams even if ti skewers are used.


It's a different build from what I had planned for the Archetype rims (different builder too) the Kinlins would be built with 20/24 spokes and a mix of CX ray and CX sprint. No skewers or rim tape were included in the weight.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

IMO, its not a good idea to mix an uber stiff rim with few and flexy spokes because you loose at both fronts.

Weight wise, the few grams you save by reducing the number of spokes are eclipsed by the extra weight of the deep profile aluminum rim which also happens to be at the worst part of the wheel. 

Lateral stiffness wise, the rim is prone to move laterally in its entirety (like a deep progile carbon does) and the few and flexy spoke will not do much in stopping it from rubbing the pads if you sprint with a good power output and specially if you tend to rock the bike.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> IMO, its not a good idea to mix an uber stiff rim with few and flexy spokes because you loose at both fronts.
> 
> Weight wise, the few grams you save by reducing the number of spokes are eclipsed by the extra weight of the deep profile aluminum rim which also happens to be at the worst part of the wheel.
> 
> Lateral stiffness wise, the rim is prone to move laterally in its entirety (like a deep progile carbon does) and the few and flexy spoke will not do much in stopping it from rubbing the pads if you sprint with a good power output and specially if you tend to rock the bike.


Well I haven't decided anything yet, just looking at the options. It might be possible to get the Archetype wheels just under 1,500g with 24/28 and the Acros hubs and that might be a pretty stiff wheel. Could be a great allrounder and I have to say I tend to think it would be a better option. As I understand the H plus Son rims are very high quality and Kinlin is good, but not quite up to the same standard.

There should also be a 38mm carbon/alloy rim available in a few weeks, so maybe that's an option as well.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Wyville said:


> .... As I understand the H plus Son rims are very high quality and Kinlin is good, but not quite up to the same standard.


I think this is a fair assesment.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

Just came back from a ride and have another reason to go for the archetype rims. Strong winds! Even with my current 25mm high rims and normal (non-aero) spokes I had a bit of a fight on my hands on the local ****. An amazingly good ride though! Had been a long time since I last went as deep as that.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

mjduct said:


> look at these guys: FLO Cycling Home - Aerodynamic Cycling Wheels
> 
> very aero, carbon fairings on aluminum rims for good braking. And well within your budget...


And also ridiculously heavy.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

youre going to get as many answers as there are wheels. You'll get custom vs factory. tubular vs tubeless and every other flame war.
I'd go deep. I've ridden deep wheels in chicago regularly in spring and fall and the wind only catches you out on occassion. i'd say it adds to the "charm" or character of the wheels. The benefit of deeper wheels on short fast rides is worth it.


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## Wyville (Jun 19, 2013)

jhamlin38 said:


> youre going to get as many answers as there are wheels. You'll get custom vs factory. tubular vs tubeless and every other flame war.
> I'd go deep. I've ridden deep wheels in chicago regularly in spring and fall and the wind only catches you out on occassion. i'd say it adds to the "charm" or character of the wheels. The benefit of deeper wheels on short fast rides is worth it.


I noticed that even for myself there are options for whatever mood I'm in. A few things are pretty clear now though; It should be a clincher as I'm happy with those. Will be a custom build because I like the idea of getting a better hub than they usually use for wheels in my price range. 

A deeper wheel or not is still the main issue. I don't think I want to go up to 50mm because it's very open where I ride and the wind is often quite strong. Do you think it would be okay to ride with 50mm wheels in open areas with strong winds? I've never ridden with those, so I couldn't say how much of a problem it would be for me. (I am quite strong and not too light at 167 lbs.) That said, I will of course keep my old wheels so I could change between them depending on the conditions. Don't know if I would want to bother with that, but it's something to consider.


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