# Lean the Bike, NOT Your Body



## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Found this on a internet site somewhere

What does this mean exactly?
Does this mean your body should be plumb vertical?

(I am learning to lean a bit more but I am always afraid the tires will hit some sand or something and slide out under me)


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

The key is to keep weight on the wheels, evenly distributed, in corners to maintain friction for cornering.

When you lean the bike, and your body is at an angle to the bike and wheels, you are pushing the bike outward. The further you lean from the tire contact with the road, the more lateral force is being applied. In other words, as you lean over, the more likely you are to slide out.

You are inately sensing this with the fear of sliding out.

If you ride trails you will learn this quickly because dirt gives way more quickly than the road/tire interface.

A useful technique is to push down on the outside pedal to better weight the tires. For example, if you are on a sweeping downhill turning to the left: drop your right pedal, lean the bike to the left, and apply weight to the right (inside) pedal. This helps anchor the tires in a turn without pedaling.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

It's a way to tighten your line towards the inside of a fast turn in order to not run off the road or in order to go faster through a turn than you normally could.

The best way to do this is to dive into the turn like you normally would, then (very carefully if you've never done this) push down and/or forward on the _inside_ end of the handlebar. _This is completely counter-intuitive._ Your brain will tell you that pushing down and forward on the the inside end of the handlebar will carry you to the _outside_ of the curve and into the ditch. However, the exact opposite will happen. The bike will lean more, your upper body will remain at the angle it was before you pushed on the bars and your trajectory will tighten. 

Cornering experts like Davis Phinney called this "counter-steering through a turn." But with as many opinions existing of what "counter-steering" means as there are cyclists, I'm not about to call it that.


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## bq_or_bust (Oct 27, 2007)

+1 to velocanman.

another way to look at it is to "countersteer" (turning right has your right hand pushing down and to the right) using your hands to lean into the turn, but, not too much with your body. thus, do not do what the motorcycle racers do in turns. when they "hang off" the bike, they have their knee slider to aid in balancing. a cyclist doesn't have this.


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## abrasive (Jan 18, 2012)

You can think of it as keeping your weight over (between) the contact patches.


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## MatchST (Mar 6, 2012)

Velo is right on. If you do any mountain biking you will quickly learn that, in the turns, you need to keep your outside foot down and your body as upright as possible while leaning the bike. You want to put weight on the outside pedal in the turn because it works as a lever to push the sides of the tires in to the road/dirt, which increases traction, and prevents the wheel from sliding out.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Meh... in any given cornering situation I could be doing both or either (leaning bike and/or body)

It all depends on specifics. 

For general cornering tips I see more riders not doing these things, which are far more important:
- weight the outside pedal (like a skier carving in powder, or Apollo Ohno carving ice)
- that down-pressure on the outside pedal tends to lift the crotch slightly off the saddle... that's good because it allows the bike to absorb the bumps that are always in corners
- but not too much, because you don't want the saddle to buck up and throw you off balance
- lean forward, not back. You want more weight on the front contact patch (it's physics: traction is partly determined by weight). Also, being on the drops is usually more stable than on the hoods or tops. Scared riders tend to sit up / lean back / shy away from the turn, which causes them to swing wide, reinforcing their incorrect self-belief that they "just can't corner".
- Look where you want to go. Seems obvious... so why can't most riders make a simple right turn from one lane to another without swinging wide?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Here's a good example from a Masters field:










Note:
single finger touching brake but not squeezing
outside foot down until it's time to pedal
posture / weight and balance is forward not upright (most are on the drops)
elbows relaxed
eyes are looking forward, already past the turn
bikes and bodies are in the same plane - e.g. not leaning one more than the other


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Creak's about right. It's mostly mumbo-jumbo. Get weight low, look where you want to go, pick a good line and adjust it as necessary. I'm a little contrary on this, but IMHO most of the talk about counter-steering is pointless. Whether or not you know what it is, and whether or not you do it with any conscious thought, you're counter-steering when you go around a turn, because that's simply how you turn a bicycle at speed. It's not a secret technique.

Similarly with all the talk of weighting the tires, contact patches, etc. The force between the tires and the road is a function of the mass of bike and rider, and the lateral acceleration, which is a function of speed and turning radius. Whether you slide out is determined by whether the lateral component of that force exceeds the friction between the rubber and the road. The other stuff is mostly mental games, which is not to say those are not useful in training. But they don't have much to do with the physics.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

JCavilia said:


> Creak's about right. It's mostly mumbo-jumbo.


It is mumbo-jumbo if you don't know the physics behind it. In skiing (high end skiing), the difference between leaning in a turn and angulating is the equivalent of leaning the bike (but not the body) and creating effective angulation. That serves to shift the CM (center of mass) to the inside of the turn, thereby shifting more weight over the tires.

While I agree that the difference beteen leaning and angulating is minor on the road (due to the limited traction the tires provide), for mountain biking it is very relevant and you see lots of DH riders doing it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> Here's a good example from a Masters field:


is that the retro 80s kit downtown crit?


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## axlenut (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi all, ever watched a road motorcycle race? The riders are leaning their bodies much more then the bike. Sometimes they even lean all the way over and drag their inside knee.

Why? Not sure but it might have to do with the very soft and sticky race tires providing so much grip that if the riders do not do this they may drag engine parts. Or is there more going on here?

Just find it interesting.

Later, Axlenut


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

axlenut said:


> Hi all, ever watched a road motorcycle race? The riders are leaning their bodies much more then the bike. Sometimes they even lean all the way over and drag their inside knee.
> 
> Why? Not sure but it might have to do with the very soft and sticky race tires providing so much grip that if the riders do not do this they may drag engine parts. Or is there more going on here?
> 
> ...


Well they have the pad on the knee and we don't, plus the motorcycle is heavier than the rider so that makes it a little different


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

axlenut said:


> Hi all, ever watched a road motorcycle race? The riders are leaning their bodies much more then the bike. Sometimes they even lean all the way over and drag their inside knee.
> 
> Why? Not sure but it might have to do with the very soft and sticky race tires providing so much grip that if the riders do not do this they may drag engine parts. Or is there more going on here?
> 
> ...



Getting off the motorcycle lets you keep the motorcycle a little more upright, so you can keep a bit bigger contact patch and, also, then get on the gas earlier as you exit the turn.


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

axlenut said:


> Hi all, ever watched a road motorcycle race? The riders are leaning their bodies much more then the bike. Sometimes they even lean all the way over and drag their inside knee.
> 
> Why? Not sure but it might have to do with the very soft and sticky race tires providing so much grip that if the riders do not do this they may drag engine parts. Or is there more going on here?
> 
> ...





PoorCyclist said:


> Well they have the pad on the knee and we don't, plus the motorcycle is heavier than the rider so that makes it a little different


The way you position your body on a motorcycle (or any 2 wheeled vehicle), like Erion is saying, allows you to use less lean angle to make a given turn. It means ultimately, that you can carry more speed through a corner before you "run out" of lean angle. The knee is "dragged" to give the rider an idea of how much lean angle he's got left, and in some instances, used to keep the bike upright. The midcorner physics of turning a bicycle should be the same--and allow for high maximum speeds through corners than keeping your body in line with the bike. 

When i'm in the twisties on a road bike I initiate turns with my shoulders/upper body and by counter steering. feels natural after all the motorcycle riding i've done. to each their own--even the MC guys argue about body position constantly. and just to illustrate the "YMMV" point even further, one of the greatest MC racers of all time has some of the ugliest riding form i've ever seen (Doohan).


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

The reason that riders on motorcycles are leaning in is because the motorcycle is way heavier than the rider. That keeps the weight over the tires where it needs to be. 

It's the other way around on a bicycle. The rider is the heavy part, not the bike.


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## tntyz (Nov 6, 2011)

Creakyknees said:


> Here's a good example from a Masters field:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And not a single one with the inside pedal down and weighted as suggested above.


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

Think about pointing the bike with your hips and steering it with your feet. I've learned this on the MTB. Try not to lean the upper body into the turn too much (I think thats what they mean by lean your bike not your body)


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

velocanman said:


> When you lean the bike, and your body is at an angle to the bike and wheels, you are pushing the bike outward. The further you lean from the tire contact with the road, the more lateral force is being applied. In other words, as you lean over, the more likely you are to slide out.


Er... When one follows the "lean your bike, not your body" rule, the one will actually try to keep one's body _upright_ in turns while _leaning_ the bike and bike alone. That means that when one follows that rule, one's body will be _at an angle to the bike and wheels_ in turns.

Meanwhile, what you said above seems to imply that "body at an angle to the bike and wheels" is somehow a bad thing.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

tntyz said:


> And not a single one with the inside pedal down and weighted as suggested above.


No. The only way to noticeably shift the weight to the the outside pedal is by keeping one's body upright, i.e. by refusing to lean into the turn. The people in these pictures are leaning with the bikes, meaning that there's no meaningful weight transfer there.


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## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

Speaking as an ex-motorcycle racer...

The reason why a motorbike racer leans into a corner is to allow the bike itself to remain more upright. This allows the tires to use a wider contact patch towards the middle of the tire rather than the edge for more grip, and it also allows the rider to flick the bike upright quicker for quicker turns in chicanes or tight corners.

It's a falsehood that bike racers balance motorbikes on their knees. Your knee is on the 'mac because it looks cool, and so that you have an instant lean angle monitor (so you know how much further you can crank the machine over if you need to). Once your toes and footpegs start scraping, you are on the limit of your machine's lean angle and any further tightening of your line will likely cause the fuselage to hit the road, which will cause a catastrophic loss of grip.

Countersteering is getting the bike to turn or go straight. It's accomplished by pushing the bars right a little when you want to go left (and vice versa). This kicks the bike's direction out to the right, causing the center of gravity to fall left. Relaxing your grip on the bars will allow the front wheel to turn left into the corner as you reach your desired lean angle, and hey presto! you've got down and into the corner much quicker than just leaning left.

Countersteering is not so important for bicycles. The speed motorbikes travel at (as well as the weight of the machine) create far more inertia, which is why you need to countersteer to flick the bike over. Motorbikes also have far heavier wheels, and the centrifugal force they create requires countersteering for fast cornering. But bicycles are so light and slow moving that leaning is as effective (unless you are going 50 mph down a mountain pass).

Whether you lean into the corner or away from it on a bicycle is largely irrelevant, it's just the extremes that are problemntatic. The more you sit up on a bicycle, the more the tires are cranked over so the closer the sidewalls are to the road (and sharp objects waiting to puncture them. And the more you lean into a corner, the less control you have over the machine as you go over bumps, etc. The best advice for cornering comes from Creaky and Velocanman above; outside foot down and put your weight on your foot, not your butt. This will give you more control over bumps. You can adjust your bike's line quickly by slightly altering the angle of the bike as long as you don't go nuts.


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## MikeWMass (Oct 15, 2011)

Countersteering works due to gyroscopic force, it has nothing to do with moving the contact patch or shifting weight. If you take a bicycle wheel and put it on an axle long enough to hold both ends with the wheel in front of you, have someone spin it with the top going away from you (as it would be when your fork is holding it and you are riding), and pull back on the right side (yaw), the wheel will lay over to the left (roll). Pull back on the left side and it will roll to the right. No weight or contact patch involved.
On motorcycles, particularly large ones which may weigh several times the rider's weight, this is the quickest way to get it to lean. It works on a bicycle, but (IMHO) is not necessary because shifting your weight works well.
As far as whether the bike or the rider should lean further, the physics are the same for both. You should be able to corner faster keeping the bike as upright as possible. The limit is when something drags on the ground or the tires lose grip. The height of the seat relative to the contact points of the feet makes it more difficult to hang off the side of a bicycle than a motorcycle. I don't ride in the dirt, so I will take your word for it that keeping upright and leaning the bike works better there.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi, do you put weight on the outside pedal and some weight on the inside handlebar at the same time? Did not see anyone recommend doing both at the same time.


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## D. W. Davis (Feb 21, 2007)

I'll jump in a say "do not put weight on the inside handlebar." Weight on the outside pedal is fine and often required. Weight on the inside handlebar could lead to disaster. All you should be looking for is just a little pressure on that inside handlebar, enough to lean your bicycle while your body stays upright.

My daily ride is up and then back down a winding, mountainous route. Countersteering makes a real improvement on such a route. Even uphill on a 12 percent incline switchback, where I guarantee you that I am slow, countersteering helps.

On a fast, winding descent, leaning the bike and not the body will definitely improve your cornering speed.

I believe countersteering is considerably safer than leaning with the bike.

I don't believe your mileage will vary in this case.

Best wishes to you, PoorCyclist.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*I don't think so.*



PoorCyclist said:


> Hi, do you put weight on the outside pedal and some weight on the inside handlebar at the same time? Did not see anyone recommend doing both at the same time.


Pushing on the handlebar initiates the turn. Then putting the foot down on the outside pedal transfers center of gravity downward and holds the wheels on the ground while scribing the curve, minimizing centrifugal force of the inertial mass, or something like that. :biggrin5:


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

so.. putting the weight on the outside pedal is counterweighting the bike so I can actually lean a bit more = turn sharper at higher speed?


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## D. W. Davis (Feb 21, 2007)

Yes, sir, it works out that way, but I do recommend that you test it out gradually to learn your limit, assuming that you might actually be fearless. 

I've found that I corner faster and much more comfortably by leaning the bike while keeping the body upright. Body upright with the outside pedal counterweighted is even mo' bettah.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Pushing on the handlebar initiates the turn.


Yes, but this is not what I was talking about in my earlier post. Everyone "pushes the handlebar" to initiate the turn. You learn that when you learn how to ride a bicycle as a kid and do it automatically now.

In my earlier post, I was talking about a slight push on the inside end of the bar *after* you've initiated the turn and continuing the slight pressure until you're through the apex. That is what "leans the bike and not the body" and tightens the trajectory. The outside pedal down with pressure on it is sort of basic procedure for all fast turns, no matter how you plan to negotiate them. That's why I didn't mention it.


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## eljimberino (Nov 29, 2011)

This thread is as clear as mud.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

D. W. Davis said:


> I'll jump in a say "do not put weight on the inside handlebar." Weight on the outside pedal is fine and often required. Weight on the inside handlebar could lead to disaster. All you should be looking for is just a little pressure on that inside handlebar, enough to lean your bicycle while your body stays upright.
> 
> My daily ride is up and then back down a winding, mountainous route. Countersteering makes a real improvement on such a route. Even uphill on a 12 percent incline switchback, where I guarantee you that I am slow, countersteering helps.
> 
> ...


Interesting, because in essence, you've just said "don't countersteer, because countersteering is what works"

The problem here is a problem common to describing and instructing physical efforts: We usually talk about what something_ feels like _to the coach / expert, not necessarily what's happening in the real, physical world. But since sense experiences and mental understandings differ between individuals, we end up arguing when we really all agree.

For example, when we're in an at-speed turn, it's usually necessary to apply some steering effort "away" from the turn to keep the turn dynamically balanced, and we refer to that as 'countersteering.' However, in this part of countersteering, the wheel axis will never go across the centerline of the bike. (although it will when first initiating a turn.)

So, there's an 'expert' advice to put a majority of weight on the outside pedal, and an amount of steering effort/weight on the inside of the bar. And that feels and looks to the rider a lot like 'leaning the bike and keeping the body upright' and 'countersteering' - but to someone watching the pictures of the race, it feels and looks like everything's in-plane and aligned. 

Both points of view are fundamentally correct. It's essentially relativity applied to a Galilean physical world.

To your specific point: The advice isn't really to 'put weight on' the inside handlebar, but is more about noting that it's the sensation of pushing the bars over/in that direction that 'drives' the bike around. And it's very dependent on the bike setup. On one of my bikes, the sensation is very much one of pushing the head tube over to one side. On another, it's very much the sensation of pushing the inside bar forward.


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## Pitts Pilot (Dec 5, 2011)

I think, for the most part, we can all lean our bikes a little bit farther over than we are and a little bit farther than we feel comfortable. It is understandable that we all would like to protect our flesh from traveling horizontally across the pavement and keeping visions of this scenario from our minds can sometimes be difficult. But if you put weight on the outside pedal (or just keep it even, as I now do,) and keep your body in line with the frame, not more upright, you can lean your bike WAY farther that most people feel comfortable and it is your fear, not the grip of your tires that will limit your speed and turn.


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

Somebody, anybody, please drop a reply with "synergy" in it. It will make my day.
Also, can anyone direct me to a website that teaches swimming by mail ?
Much obliged.


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## B.Garcia (Nov 21, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik5EdAd7zlQ&list=PLFA8065372DCB209B&index=49&feature=plpp_video

Old, short and to the point.


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## Mahatma Kane (Oct 25, 2005)

Say, were all you people racing with me in the Cat 4 crit I did last Sunday? Because it seemed like all those people were also trying to figure out how to go through a turn on a bicycle.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

MikeWMass said:


> Countersteering works due to gyroscopic force, it has nothing to do with moving the contact patch or shifting weight.


Gyroscopic force is negligible on a bicycle. The wheels are light and they're spinning fairly slowly, so there's not much gyroscopic force. In motorcycles, gyroscopic forces can contribute as much as 12% of the turning force when countersteering, but in a bicycle gyroscopic forces are much smaller on account of the lighter wheels.

As one author points out, if gyroscopic forces were a large factor then bikes would not fall over so easily on ice: they would skid while the gyroscopic forces kept them upright.

Turning the bike is almost entirely a matter of centripetal force applied by the pavement to the tires. This lateral force is purely a function of the speed of the bike and the radius of the turn, regardless how the rider's weight is distributed relative to the center of mass.

Edit to add: a bicycle traveling at about 35 mph with rims that weigh about 1 kg would produce about 6 Newton-meters of torque from gyroscopic effects in a turn. If you figure the center of mass of the wheel is about half a meter from the ground, that's 12 Newtons or a bit less than 3 pounds force. A 150 pound rider on a 20 pound bike making a turn at 35 mph with a radius of 10 meters requires about 450 pounds of centripetal force, so gyroscopic effects would produce a bit less than one percent of the total turning force.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

When I'm really trying to turn at high speed I like to focus on pushing on the inside of the bar and weighting the outside pedal. For me it works, but I've practiced it on my road and mtb bikes many times. 

I don't plan for it but sometimes I'll take my bike into an empty parking lot and practice high speed turns of different radii using different techniques. Parking space lines make for good reference points and targets for turns of different sizes. 

Arguing on the webz is fun and all but next time you get a chance, put some of the suggestions in this thread into practice in a relatively safe place. If they work for you, great! If not, trash them and continue to turn as you have been.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Yep. I missed that.*



wim said:


> Yes, but this is not what I was talking about in my earlier post. Everyone "pushes the handlebar" to initiate the turn. You learn that when you learn how to ride a bicycle as a kid and do it automatically now.
> 
> In my earlier post, I was talking about a slight push on the inside end of the bar *after* you've initiated the turn and continuing the slight pressure until you're through the apex. That is what "leans the bike and not the body" and tightens the trajectory. The outside pedal down with pressure on it is sort of basic procedure for all fast turns, no matter how you plan to negotiate them. That's why I didn't mention it.


You're right! Doing this, it's amazing how tight a turn one can make. I have fun with this on the bike trails! :biggrin5: (As well as attacking hills!)

I have to say, though, in contrast to conventional racer wisdom, the bike seems to lean into the curve about 5 or so degrees more than my body. I can hold upper body upright, but the whole mass goes right around the turn seemingly not affected by centrifugal force.


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

I saw some riders putting pedals at 3 and 9 o' clock and they just tip the body left and right going pretty fast, anyone care to comment on that? just seems there is more than one way to skin a cat.. maybe it's mostly a mental thing to overcome.. sometimes the roads are too bumpy or slick and some people have less fear than others.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

eljimberino said:


> This thread is as clear as mud.


:lol:


There's good info here. 

You just have to sift through it  .


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Here's a good video of Rasmussen descending during stage 9 of the 2005 TDF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRSFUnclJGQ


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Here's another from TDF stage 8 Descent Cormet de roselend:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kZSzB4kEE8&feature=relmfu


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Here's FC descending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA&feature=related


This is a good one showing FC really leaning into turns :eek6: ! Especially at 4:00min!


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Here's yet another with Evans and Gilbert descending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yISN7pgfCtY&feature=related

At 00:38 watch how Evans and Gilbert really lean in a left hand turn to pass a motorcycle :eek6: !


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

And here's one poasted by a member here descending Mt Diablo with Team Fast Freddie Rodriguez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai_-ZyMFB4c


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Weighting, counter steering, trajectories, centrifugal forces…blachhh, I think I’ll just drive.

Stop the insanity (remember Susan Powter?) and the analysis paralysis talk. Just take away the 3 basics: 

1) Lean your body with the outside pedal down and weighted and inside knee pointing slightly in the direction of the turn. Stay loose.

2) Very light force on the bars in the opposite direction of turn. This is less important if you are not going fast through the turn. 

3) Look through the corner to where you want to go.

Hands in the drops will give you more stability and leverage but don’t do it if you are not comfortable controlling the bike in the drops. Using the drops becomes more important as the angle for the turn and your speed increases. 

Practice on angles you can handle until it all feels natural and you don’t have to think about it, then gradually go to faster and tighter turns. Better to overpractice on things you can handle than go into a tight corner, lose your nerve and then your control.


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## socal-k (Feb 21, 2012)

BostonG said:


> Weighting, counter steering, trajectories, centrifugal forces…blachhh, I think I’ll just drive.
> 
> Stop the insanity (remember Susan Powter?) and the analysis paralysis talk. Just take away the 3 basics:
> 
> ...


Best post yet on the subject...


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

thanks everyone, I shortened 90 seconds on a 50 minute descent, just by remembering to put some more weight on the outside pedal, I have no idea if I was leaning more or not. I did touch the yellow line on a couple of right hand switchback being a bit too hot, I think I have to remember in the US the right turns is sharper due to being the inner line.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Think: Center Of Gravity (CoG)

Pedals at 3:00 and 9:00 = CoG at the height of the bottom bracket
Pedals at 12:00 and 6:00 = CoG 175cm LOWER than the BB - for the foot that's at 6:00
Feet - Majority of weight is on outside pedal, which is at 6:00
Hands - Basically even, some toward inside to initiate/sustain turn
Butt - Used for steering also... working with hands, shoulders, etc. 

The problem with leaning with the bike occurs when the tires slip - you're now leaning beyond or more than the bike... and you're down. If you're leaning less than the bike (and 12:00/6:00) and low on the bike, tire slippage is minimized and controllable with rear brake to "snap" back under you.

The more weight you've got on your pedals - specifically the outside/6:00 pedal, and the less you have on the bar and saddle... the lower that CoG... and the tighter you turn.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> Think: Center Of Gravity (CoG)
> 
> Pedals at 3:00 and 9:00 = CoG at the height of the bottom bracket
> Pedals at 12:00 and 6:00 = CoG 175cm LOWER than the BB - for the foot that's at 6:00
> ...


unless you high side it....:cryin:


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Mumbo-jumbo*

Center of gravity (more accurately center of mass) is a function of where the mass of the whole body is. Where it's attached to the bike does not change it If your body is in a given position, whether the weight is on the saddle or the pedals doesn't matter. It might affect handling because of where the control inputs are, but putting a pedal down and putting weight on it doesn't lower center of gravity when the center of your mass is somewhere up around your belly.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Just thought of a synthesis of this COG dilemma.*



JCavilia said:


> Center of gravity (more accurately center of mass) is a function of where the mass of the whole body is. Where it's attached to the bike does not change it If your body is in a given position, whether the weight is on the saddle or the pedals doesn't matter. It might affect handling because of where the control inputs are, but putting a pedal down and putting weight on it doesn't lower center of gravity when the center of your mass is somewhere up around your belly.


Center of gravity of the mass hurtling forward may be up in the belly of the rider, but putting full weight of upper body on the outside pedal certainly transfers center of mass relative to gravity down below the bottom bracket. So both you and Old Zaskar are right. :yesnod: But as thousands of cyclists will testify, pressing down on the outside pedal loads up the wheels much better than just leaning into the curve! :biggrin5:

Where did you find that awesome picture! Look at the length of that head tube! How tall is that guy, 6'8"? :shocked: I have an old Avocet knit jersey just like his! Notice, also, the slight cant upright of his shoulders and head, although his body is perfectly aligned with the bike! Looks like he's exerting pressure on his right pedal, even.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

OldZaskar said:


> Think: Center Of Gravity (CoG)
> 
> Pedals at 3:00 and 9:00 = CoG at the height of the bottom bracket
> Pedals at 12:00 and 6:00 = CoG 175cm LOWER than the BB - for the foot that's at 6:00


175 cm is about 5 feet 7 inches. Putting your pedals at 12:00 and 6:00 does not put your center of gravity several feet below the pavement.

Apart from mixing up cm and mm, this post also completely misunderstands center of mass.

CoM is NOT where your foot is. Lowering your outside pedal does not lower your CoM by 175 mm unless you also lower your ass by 175 mm. Note how far the center of mass in the figure below is from the bottom bracket.










Here, in profile, is the center of mass (green dot) of a cyclist









Most of your mass is in your torso. The saddle keeps that pretty much in the same place as you pedal, so rearranging your feet won't have a significant effect on center of mass.

CoM also depends only on *where the mass is*, not on *where your weight is supported*. Thus, shifting your weight from the 6 o'clock pedal to the 12 o'clock pedal would not move your center of mass.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Thanks, Fredke. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

Fredrico, that pic is Jobst Brandt, best known for his writings about bicycle wheels. Not sure how tall he is. the pic has been knocking around the interwebz for some time.

Outer pedal down with weight on it is pretty standard technique, but I don't think it has anything to do with center of gravity or "loading up the wheels." You put the outer one down so the inside one will be up and not strike the pavement. And having some weight on the feet (or foot) gives you better control than no weight there, because you have three (or four or five) widely separated solid anchor points on the bike (bar, saddle, pedal). If a pedal is down, it's more stable to have the weight there (because the upper one will tend to rotate, whereas the lower one tends to stay at the bottom of its arc). 

If I'm cornering hard on sketchy pavement, and I want to get some weight off the saddle to allow my legs to absorb shock, I level the cranks and put the weight evenly on the two pedals. It doesn't seem to diminish corning capability


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

There is a good series of photos of riders in the same turn during last year's Tour de France on a fast descent here:
ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Descending Technique on Pramartino


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## w-g (Mar 9, 2006)

cda 455 said:


> And here's one poasted by a member here descending Mt Diablo with Team Fast Freddie Rodriguez:
> 
> Team Fast Freddie Descending Mt Diablo (Strava Record) - YouTube


Love that vid. My home turf decent. Some great shots of the various corners and how to handle them. Some are built for max lean and swoop. Others require a proper entry and positioning on the bike to avoid the oddities of the road surface. Lean too hard and the bumps can cause some serious pucker moments of bike handling. 
Word of advice to those who may not know better... Do not attempt if you don't know the road or potential of coming traffic sight lines.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

While this certainly doesn't address everything, here are some basic notes I made for a friend who was working on improving his descending technique:

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font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> *General*


Make sure your bike is safe and well maintained
Keep weight evenly distributed between both wheels
Pick your line carefully
Be aware of potential hazards like cars, pedestrians, animals, road debris, or other cyclists
Descend in the drops, don’t descend on the hoods, you’ll have a lower center of gravity, better aerodynamics, and more braking power and control
Stay relaxed and alert, use a firm but supple grip, and keep your arms bent, being tense will take away your sensitivity, reduce your reaction time and ability to absorb bumps and imperfections in the road surface
When crossing metal grates or other potentially slippery surfaces, try to go straight, no turning or leaning, if you are in a corner try to momentarily straighten up to cross slippery spots
Don’t use too much tire pressure, unless you are very heavy, you should not be using your tires maximum pressure, you'll have reduced traction and speed
When possible follow someone who is a better descender than you, following their line and trying to emulate their technique
Smooth equals fast, watch Nibali and/or Cancellara descend
Ride within your capability and the performance limits of your equipment
*
Braking*

The front brake is where the vast majority of your braking power is
Try to do 95%-100% of your braking before entering the turn
Only brake hard when traveling in a straight line, not while turning
Brake smoothly and not abruptly, learn how to modulate your brakes
Be very aware of the varying condition of the road surface, trying not to brake on potentially slippery surfaces: wet, mossy, sandy, oily, icy, etc.
Don’t ride the brakes, it can cause overheating and reduced braking performance and can cause irreparable damage especially with carbon wheels
To help avoid overheating, sometimes use your rear brake when needing to slightly check your speed
When cornering only lightly feather your brakes for fine tuning your speed, any more is asking for trouble

*Cornering*

On two wheeled vehicles, at speed, all turning is counter-steering, when turning right, for example, lightly reach forward with your right, in other words push the right side of your bars forward
Inside pedal up, and outside pedal down
Put most of your weight on your outside pedal, with just 5-10% of your weight on the saddle
Generally keep the bike directly underneath you, if the bike is leaning, then you lean, don’t lean more or less than the bike
While being aware of what is right in front of you, look where you want to go, don’t look down or too close in front of you
Try to apex early, accelerating through and out of the corner
Stay within your lane unless you are absolutely sure that the other lane is clear and there isn’t any oncoming traffic
Approach blind corners cautiously as you may need to make an unexpected stop
When available use mirrors to see around blind corners
Be careful about getting too wide or tight in the turns, the extreme edges of the road tend to collect sand, moss and debris

Don't forget, at the end of the day it's about having fun, and being safe!


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Unless you're on a closed-to-traffic race course these are probably the most important of all:


> Stay within your lane unless you are absolutely sure that the other lane is clear and there isn’t any oncoming traffic
> Approach blind corners cautiously as you may need to make an unexpected stop


If you've ever had some idiot come speeding around a blind curve cross into your lane headed straight for your bike, you know what I mean.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

Bill2 said:


> Unless you're on a closed-to-traffic race course these are probably the most important of all:
> 
> If you've ever had some idiot come speeding around a blind curve cross into your lane headed straight for your bike, you know what I mean.


Agreed! That will definitely give you a serious adrenaline rush, and not the GOOD kind!


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## PoorCyclist (Oct 14, 2010)

Bill2 said:


> Unless you're on a closed-to-traffic race course these are probably the most important of all:
> 
> If you've ever had some idiot come speeding around a blind curve cross into your lane headed straight for your bike, you know what I mean.


Kind of like this?


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Similar. My most recent was a motorcycle descending Il Giau toward Selva di Cadore. I was slowly climbing on the far right edge of my lane around a right-hand blind bend. This clown was going so fast he had come all the way across his lane and all the way across my lane as well to make the curve. He swerved and missed me by less than a meter.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> Here's a good example from a Masters field:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Turn 4 at Dilworth?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

You guys are over-thinking this. Just go fast, stay loose, put your knee out, look through the turn, and stay loose. Don't forget to go fast.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

My tips:

Outside petal down and weighted (I may or may not be slightly off of the saddle depending on the road surface and speed).

Arms loose not locked up. (locked elbows or tense arms mean that all bumps get transmitted making the bike seem unstable).

Front end weighted (leaning back and away from the turn makes the bike unstable)

Point your chin at where you want to go (when people say look where you want to go some people just turn their eyes turn your head)

Relax you core (allows you to better control the bike with your hips)

On trick I used to get faster descending was to get to where I thought I need to start braking and then count too 2 and then see if I actually needed to brake (I did because I tended to start braking too soon).


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)




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