# Question to carbon fiber types



## Duc Stiyl (Sep 17, 2014)

Planning on building up a road bike over the winter and was confused by the great variety of finish and frame material.

What's the difference between 1k, 2k, 3k, 12k?
What's the difference between T500, T600, T700, T800, T1000 & T1100+?

PS.: I'm considering chinese frames as I have read quite a lot of reviews of satisfied buyers & because I don't wanna spend too much (I don't have a specific limit though), can you recommend any sellers with good reputation to me (I know DengFu, HongFu & Yoeleo)?


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## useless (Sep 18, 2014)

3k and 12k refer to the weave of woven materials
This link kind of explain 1k,2k,3k

From my understanding T500, T600... is different model from Toray but general higher the no. the higher strength it is

https://attach.mobile01.com/attach/201005/mobile01-073573a2b61fa799989882166c13ec63.jpg


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

Carbon Fiber Bike Construction: Peeling Back the Layers | Bicycling Magazine


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## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

The stronger the carbon fibre, the more brittle it is. No good frame can be built with just one type of fibre. The idea is for the frame builder to have a "recipe" and blend the fibres taking advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of each fibre depending on the area of intended use in the frame.

Many people report good experiences with Chinese frames. My caveat with them (other than the fact that the money leaves the west and affects everybody's pocket eventually) is that as they may not have passed the relevant EN or US equivalent testing, when you crash, they may splinter in a way that could penetrate you. This should not happen with a properly tested frame


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The recent sets of "generic" chinese carbon rims I bought directly from China arrived with EN test reports. For whatever that is worth, as I don't know what the test tests.

The vast majority of brand name frames are made in China or Taiwan. A couple years ago the center of quality bike CF manufacture was Taiwan, but it's been moving to China.

Read the threads about the product you're interested in to find out who the reputable trading houses are. DengFu, FarSport, HongFu etc are not manufacturers, they are trading houses that buy from the manufacturers.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

The unvarnished truth is that things happen in China that shouldn't. In 2008 unscrupulous milk producers attempted to fool the protein content tests by adding melamine.

From Wikipedia:

_"By November 2008, China reported an estimated 300,000 victims, with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage, and an estimated 54,000 babies being hospitalized. The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content. In a separate incident four years before, watered-down milk had resulted in 13 infant deaths from malnutrition."_


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Things happen in all countries that shouldn't.

But I will only buy Chinese carbon parts from companies that have good reputations among people who have actually bought their stuff. I'm not worried about the quality of the parts as much as paypalling a bunch of money to China. If the people I'm dealing with are shady the legal system isn't going to be much help.

So far I have yet to have a problem (quality or financial) with two frames, two pairs of wheels, a set of rims and a seat post.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I have had very good luck with Pedal Force: Pedal Force super-light carbon bicycle


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## canuckjgc (Jan 25, 2010)

How fast do you plan to ride? You can likely hit 50 mph downhill pretty quickly.

In my view, the frame is not the place to try to save money with a generic Chinese carbon frame. Maybe it will be fine, maybe not, what's your life worth - a few hundred bucks?

I like the big brands because you are assured of some quality control, and a company that backs up their products. Both Specialized and SRAM (likely others) have done recalls on faulty parts and equipment. That says they care about their customers (even if purely to avoid lawsuits).

Do you think the no-name chinese bike factory cares (or even looks for) issues in their products? Will they advise you if they do? Will the replace it if they do? And do they bother doing any research at all, or just copy/reverse engineer bikes from the big brands that support and learn from their racing teams?

If you are strapped for cash, go on Craigslist and simply search for "never ridden" or "barely ridden" etc. You'll eventually find a really nice bike that was ridden a few times (or never) for half price.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

The reputable Chinese companies do their own research and make their own products. They're original designs, not copies. The ones I consider reputable are FarSport, HongFu, DengFu, LightBicycle. PedalForce is a US based reseller of Chinese frames. They are also reputable and stand by their products. I have one of their frames that's seven years old. I have done many 55 mph descents on it.

If you buy a second hand bike, even from a major manufacturer, you are no longer covered by the warranty. You may or may not be covered under a recall.


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## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

ericm979 said:


> The reputable Chinese companies do their own research and make their own products. They're original designs, not copies. The ones I consider reputable are FarSport, HongFu, DengFu, LightBicycle.
> 
> .


Farsports just to name one your examples do not make their own products. They are manufactured by Xpace


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## canuckjgc (Jan 25, 2010)

You know this how? Seems to me getting any accurate information on Chinese manufacturers is tough even for insiders.

Specialized has its own research engineers, and just built their own wind tunnel. You can see interviews with their researchers on YouTube and see their testing facilities and their frames going through torture tests.

I don't see any of that with Dengfu or whatever. 



ericm979 said:


> The reputable Chinese companies do their own research and make their own products. They're original designs, not copies. The ones I consider reputable are FarSport, HongFu, DengFu, LightBicycle. PedalForce is a US based reseller of Chinese frames. They are also reputable and stand by their products. I have one of their frames that's seven years old. I have done many 55 mph descents on it.
> 
> If you buy a second hand bike, even from a major manufacturer, you are no longer covered by the warranty. You may or may not be covered under a recall.


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## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

canuckjgc said:


> You know this how? Seems to me getting any accurate information on Chinese manufacturers is tough even for insiders.


I am in the industry. A lot of information is also out there. Colnago - Giant. Specialized - Merida. Scott - Tenax....


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## canuckjgc (Jan 25, 2010)

Great, go for it. Not sure how knowing that Merida owns 49% of Specialized translates into knowing that Dengfu has research engineers on staff, but whatever. 



mambo said:


> I am in the industry. A lot of information is also out there. Colnago - Giant. Specialized - Merida. Scott - Tenax....


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## mambo (Jul 29, 2012)

canuckjgc said:


> Great, go for it. Not sure how knowing that Merida owns 49% of Specialized translates into knowing that Dengfu has research engineers on staff, but whatever.


You quoted the wrong person. I wasn't the one who said that Deng Fu has research engineers on staff...


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## Duc Stiyl (Sep 17, 2014)

lol I asked about the material. I did not want this to turn into a discussion.. 

I do have a Canyon Ultimate CF SLX with Dura Ace group/- and wheelset . This "chinese" frame is going to be a project I will work on when the weather (I live in germany) sucks. I want to order two frames. One for me and one for my girlfriend. I wanted to buy a training bike anyways and thought that this could be a nice solution. Anyways Thanks for your answers. For my girlfriend I want the material to be strong rather than stiff. So I think I should go for the lower Toray carbon fibers (probably T800 with 3k finish). 
I am just wondering if it's worth to pay hundred $ more for T1000 or even more for T1100. It will probably be stiffer & crisp but less tolerant. 

My only concern is that the frame might flex too much when i sprint (and I do that alot.) So T800, T1000 or T1100?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Duc Stiyl said:


> Planning on building up a road bike over the winter and was confused by the great variety of finish and frame material.
> 
> What's the difference between 1k, 2k, 3k, 12k?
> What's the difference between T500, T600, T700, T800, T1000 & T1100+?
> ...


In my opinion its not productive to focus on the composite information or brand of carbon used in a bike. Getting caught up in the hype of Toray, Modulus , NASA grade or 70 mhkz etc is not productive. At the end of the day, what will matter is geometry and whether the frame is appropriately stiff and compliant. Tubing size, thickness and length can matter just as much as what the frame is made from. You're better off making your decision on opinions you gather and a test ride if that's possible.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

I don't thiink that carbon grade makes a noticeable difference in ride or stiffness. Tube shape and layup do. Higher grade carbon just means they can use fewer or thinner layers making the frame weight less for the same stiffness.


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## Duc Stiyl (Sep 17, 2014)

Yeah I want a chinese frame because most entry level bikes don't have the geometry i'm looking for. I used to ride a tarmac and now a canyon with "sport pro" geometry. So i only look at bikes with similar geometry anyways. Still thanks for all your help.


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