# Steel Road Bikes



## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

Who still makes affordable steel road bikes? Who makes affordable steel road bikes for racing? Anyone have thoughts or opinions on steel road bikes in general? I'm interested in learning as much as possible.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

Steel is real!!!

www.surlybikes.com
www.somafab.com
www.rivbike.com
www.ridetommasini.com
www.vanillabicycles.com
www.velo-orange.com

There is a bunch more here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=99922


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## addict42 (Nov 2, 2006)

*It all really depends on what you mean by affordable...*

Surly, Soma, Gunnar and some others, whom I cannot think of at the moment, make good steel frames (so I've heard) which you might consider to be "affordable."


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

A lot depends on how big you are, and how much you weigh. (If you weigh under 150, you can race on an "old school" bike......if you weigh over 180, you probably need oversized tubes and more modern tubesets)


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## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

*To Lugged Or Not To Lugged*

I've been reading about lugged versus lugless or tig welded. Much of what I'm reading suggests that lugged is the strongest, but I'm seeing that many steel bikes are tig welded. Is there any significant difference?


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## torrefaction (Jun 25, 2006)

*Racing steel*

Hi Eithr,

I race steel. I'm definitely the only guy riding steel in the Quebec elite peloton. I've pulled off a bunch of podiums, can't say the bike is holding me back!!! 

This frame was custom made by Foundry Frameworks in Montreal, Quebec. Deda Zero tubeset, lugged bb, filet brazed. Very nice work, sweet sweet ride. Paint by Exor. 

It's hard to find nice racing steel for cheap - try for a sponsorship deal with a local builder. Rocky Mountain makes decent production steel frames, as does Salsa, but they'll be pricey. Stay one degree below the superfly metals like Spirit, S3 and EOM 16.5 and you'll get great performance and 100g penalty. If money is no object, you can easily spend more on steel than almost any other material (Reynolds 953 - owtch!). You may find dusty "old" frames for cheap too, like Foco and Ultrafoco racing frames - check your local shops and ebay. 

Enjoy the pics - finally learned how to post em!


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

You could have a look at Marinoni bikes. Their Piuma Spirit steel frame is $900 Cdn with a Columbus full carbon fork. I'm leaning toward this frame myself at the moment

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca


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## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

What do you think of combining steel frames with carbon forks or carbon seat stays? Does it seem counterproductive to the overall durability of the bike or do those components tend to hold up better than a full carbon frame set up?


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

eithr said:


> What do you think of combining steel frames with carbon forks or carbon seat stays? Does it seem counterproductive to the overall durability of the bike or do those components tend to hold up better than a full carbon frame set up?


I think it is a great way for a company to separate fools from their money.

Personally I think it is really stupid to add plastic to a nice steel frame.


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## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

*And weight*

I have a relatively light cro-moly frame from the early 80's... are the modern steel bikes honestly much lighter? And - when it comes to speed over greater distances, does the weight of the frame play as big a role as the weight and performance of the wheels and the comfort of the geometry?


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## bopApocalypse (Aug 30, 2006)

a few more, perhaps a little more affordable (ps. vanilla and affordable don't really belong in the same sentence, IMO...)

http://www.primusmootry.com/
http://www.curtlo.com/
http://www.rocklobstercycles.com/


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## eithr (Jun 27, 2007)

*That's what i thought...*



brianmcg said:


> I think it is a great way for a company to separate fools from their money.
> 
> Personally I think it is really stupid to add plastic to a nice steel frame.



Don't steel forks absorb shock from the riding surface a lot better than a carbon fork?


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

eithr said:


> I have a relatively light cro-moly frame from the early 80's... are the modern steel bikes honestly much lighter? And - when it comes to speed over greater distances, does the weight of the frame play as big a role as the weight and performance of the wheels and the comfort of the geometry?


Unless you are going straight up, weight will play almost no roll in the performance of the bike.

Most of the bike weight comes from the components that are hanging on the frame. You can take a frame weight 6lbs and get it
under 20lb for the complete bike. Once you stick a rider on it at 150lb+, the frame weight is a very small percentage.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

eithr said:


> Don't steel forks absorb shock from the riding surface a lot better than a carbon fork?


Larger size tires will absorb much more shock than any rigid type fork can regardless of material. 
If you want shock absorption in a road bike use 700x25 or 700x28 tires with lower pressures.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

bopApocalypse said:


> (ps. vanilla and affordable don't really belong in the same sentence, IMO...)


I know lots of people that can afford them.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

www.curtlo.com as already mentioned....$755.00 for an OX Platnium frame, S3 is a bit more expensive. All of his frames are totally custom...


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## IAmCosmo (Jul 26, 2005)

bopApocalypse said:


> a few more, perhaps a little more affordable (ps. vanilla and affordable don't really belong in the same sentence, IMO...)


Yeah. As much as I'd like to have one, I can't see waiting 5 years on one. Of course, by then I know I could probably afford it...


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## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

GVHbikes.com has a number of Viner steel frames for $500 -$600 with a carbon fork, $500 Soma Smoothies with a carbon fork, some $700 Lyons with steel fork, and some more expensive Cinellis and Ritcheys.


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

If you're going to spend a around $2300, definitely go custom S3 steel with Curtlo including Ultegra (or Centaur) level components. $1200 for the frame/fork, $1100 for the component package.

edit: ooops, your post originally requested "affordable steel". I assume that to mean under $1000 - not possible unless you get it used on Ebay. You can put together a decent steel racer using Ultegra 9-speed components plus vintage steel frame/fork and Ebay wheels for around $1000. Or even a complete bike! I picked up my 2006 Gunnar Roadie off of Ebay, fully equipped with Ultegra, a few months ago for $900 plus shipping on Ebay - I was the only bidder!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yup*



brianmcg said:


> Larger size tires will absorb much more shock than any rigid type fork can regardless of material.
> If you want shock absorption in a road bike use 700x25 or 700x28 tires with lower pressures.


but a steel fork (and stays) are better at bump absorbtion

CF is better at high frequency chatter absorbtion

get some CF bars and you can take care of that (if ya have to)


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

from the Tommasini link above the "fire" gets reintroduced, all steel, really pretty frame to race. http://www.ridetommasini.com/frames/fire.html


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## majura (Apr 21, 2007)

Jamis still make Steel road bikes:

http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/road/index.html

$775-$2500


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## jamesm029 (Jul 13, 2007)

*Lets get the facts straight*

I own a custom Tig Welded bike and its as strong and well made as any lugged frame and this evaluation is based on real use not here say!

Please see below:




The 411 on Joining Methods
Tig bikes suck! No, lug bikes suck! Read this friendly discussion on the matter and chill; it's all good!


You suck! No, you suck!

The whole "fillet brazing vs. lugged construction vs. tig welding" war of words is steeped in misinformation and prejudice. Before tig came along, it used to be between fillet brazing and lugs and silver brazing versus brass brazing and so on and so on.

Long, long ago, say 15 years, there was a difference between lugs and fillet brazing, but it was largely a matter of overheating the tubes. When fillet brazing with brass fillers, it's very easy to overheat the tubes but the same problem applied to brass brazed lugged frames. Silver brazed frames were considered superior since silver brazing didn’t require heating the tubes as hot as brass does. Overheating the tubes gives you a large heat affected zone, or HAZ, and that’s a bad thing.

A few words about the HAZ. Heating steel above a certain temperature, generally called its transition temperature, can cause phase transformations, strength loss, grain growth, embrittlement, softening, precipitation, or cracking of the parent or filler metal (parent metal is what you're welding, filler metal is what your adding to the joint). Those are all bad things. 

The transition temperatures in most steels used in bicycle fabrication generally falls between 1200-1800F. Brass fillet brazed and brass brazed lug frames can have very large HAZ areas. Tig welding also creates a HAZ area but it is very small and the heat is highly localized. Frames properly silver brazed should have no HAZ area but you’re limited to lug building. Most silver filler materials are not suitable for fillet brazing on the primary frame tubes due to their tendency to have interstitial cracking within the filler and their relatively low strengths.

On lugged bikes, silver brazing, due to its lower heat requirements was a superior method of fabrication for both styles, though silver was less often used on mass produced bikes due to its expense. From that position, a silver brazed lugged bike would be superior to a brass-brazed bike and the joining method is inconsequential if properly performed (with air hardening tube sets, this is not always true). With today's heat resistant tube sets, it's not such a concern as long as the builder matches his tube selection to the joining technique. Overheating is still a bad thing, but the tube sets are more tolerant and most modern steel tube sets are designed with Tig welding in mind.

With fillet brazing and Tig welding, the builder has more freedom in the design of the bike since you're not in "lug jail." Lugs, by virtue of how they're made in limited designs, restrict the builder to the angles and tube sizes the lug is available in - which ain't many - there are lots of different lugs out there, but most are made at the same angles and the same relative tube sizes and shapes, i.e., round cross sections. Lugs can be “set” to achieve a range of angles other than the nominal design would dictate, but you’re still limited in tube sizes. Other than that, with proper tubing selection and care, one joining method has no real advantage or disadvantage though a brass fillet brazed or lugged bike might pay a weight penalty depending on fillet size and lug style. 

Tig bikes will always be lighter if using the same materials and is the only real choice for Aluminum and Ti (you can't really braze Ti and bonding Al or Ti is poor option IMO). Each method is an excellent way of building a frame and bike frames rarely fail at the joint of a frame assembled using proper technique. They typically fail somewhere in the heat affected zone or where there is highly localized stress.

You’ll often hear comments about the labor savings when building with Tig vs. lugs. This is not really accurate when you're discussing hand built bikes. To properly build a tig-welded frame using modern, high performance tube set calls for very precise miters - typically machine miters as you're not relying on a lug to "bridge the gap" so to speak. This takes time, and if you don't have precision mitering equipment, you become intimate with your file and emery paper. Building a lug bike does not require that kind of investment in time or equipment. Manual Tig welding also requires a very steady hand and careful technique. The act of manually Tig welding (not the act of prepping for welding) demands you work three body components in precision increments: left hand, right hand, and foot. Most often you're doing that in a position not conducive to steadiness which is rather like double jeopardy. Brazing simply does not make those demands on the craftsman. 

To make this crystal clear, I'm not talking about craftsman's time and skill required to prepare fine lugs, I'm just comparing basic joining techniques. Lots of people tig weld on bikes and a lot of them don't do it very well - same as brazing. I guess it depends on how you'd define a good weld - most welding procedures and codes require a suitable appearance (in addition to mechanical competency), but nothing like expected on a high quality bike frame. There are welds that will "hold" and those that will "hold" and have an appearance befitting a fine bicycle and a huge gap between the two.

Obviously, automated welding (and brazing) machinery exists and is often used in the mass produced end of the bike world and anything done many times and done very fast without much human involvement is going to lower costs. This is where Tig got its "cheaper" reputation that the brazing only folks like to toss around. Remember, we're just talking about the joining process - not the design and cost impacts of mass-producing lugged bikes. Tig welding better facilitates design freedom. Lugs have to be cast/stamped/cut and for a mass producer geared towards meeting the whimsy of the market, that extra production step (getting lugs made) can be a huge obstacle. From the bean counters perspective, lugs add cost without adding benefit (of course I'm making the assumption that the average bean counter's decision making process is not influenced by aesthetic preferences), especially so in a market where product success can be tied to a lighter product and considering that a decent set of lugs can cost as much as a decent steel tube set and usually add weight.

As far as repairability, you can repair a Tig bike just as easily as a lug bike, sometimes it's even easier. A person who can only braze obviously isn't going to have the skill set to replace a tube on a Tig bike and vice versa. That said, frame repairability is not something I'd place a lot of weight on when buying a frame.

Let me step up to the pulpit here: there is a lot of propaganda out there. Tig welded bike frames arrived late on the bicycle scene and was seen as an immediate threat by builders who practiced only the traditional assembly methods (lugs/brazing). Everybody has a preference for style and aesthetics and that is where the "real" difference lies. You're not going to be able to "feel" the difference in ride between one assembly method and another anywhere but in your head. Frankly, folks who say one joining method (Tig, lug, fillet) is better than another, for steel, is either ill-informed, prejudiced, or attempting to protect their own interests, e.g., "I can't Tig weld therefore Tig welding is bad."

Bottom line is that for traditional road bike design you decide what style (lug, fillet, tig) you like in a bike and then select a builder/Mfr. whose competency in that technique you're comfortable with. For shaped tubes or designs that stray from the traditional double diamond, you may be limited to fillet brazing or Tig welded construction. Either way, you'll end up with a bike that gives up nothing up to frames assembled using other methods and yet it meets your specific aesthetic preferences and that's a win-win situation.


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## mness (Feb 9, 2005)

*LeMond*



eithr said:


> Who still makes affordable steel road bikes? Who makes affordable steel road bikes for racing? Anyone have thoughts or opinions on steel road bikes in general? I'm interested in learning as much as possible.


http://www.lemondbikes.com/bikes/road_racing/classic_steel/sarthe.php


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## kyler2001 (Sep 8, 2005)

*IONIC* (Same as Dean Ti Bikes Company)

True Temper S3 tubing for under $1000 (just over 3 lbs.)
Reynolds 953 for $1,500 (just over 2.5 lbs)

Great prices for custom steel...

http://www.ionicbikes.com/rdbikes.html

or

*Salsa*

Off the shelf S3 tubing with full carbon Alpha Q fork for $1,200

http://www.webcyclery.com/product.php?productid=17455


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

eithr said:


> What do you think of combining steel frames with carbon forks or carbon seat stays?


Works great, I love mine.


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## otb4evr (Feb 2, 2003)

jamesm029 said:


> I own a custom Tig Welded bike and its as strong and well made as any lugged frame and this evaluation is based on real use not here say!
> 
> Please see below:
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post this...

Jim


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## Pete2464 (Dec 2, 2013)

Hello. I am Peter A. O'Brien. I am looking for a Steel Road Bike that will be my ONLY transportation for a few (2-3 years). I am a VERY good Bicyclist and have done my Homework and Research on Bikes,I rode one for many years as my ONLY form of transportation. I only have $500.00 but I believe I can get a suitable one for that amount. If anyone has any suggestions I would be very happy to hear from you. 
[email protected] (480) 689-0267 Thank You.


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