# Too much spam in this forum



## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Yes, you read it right.

No matter what is the OP question, there is a allways the same group of posters chiming in and praising the custom hand builts, and puting down any other kind of wheels.

There are great factory wheels on the market that could also satisfy many OP needs, but everything is reduced to some Kinlin/Edge/Made-by-me recommendation,

Even though I think the custom hand builts, could be great, I think the ( interested ) bias on this forum is a bit too much. 

One of the arguments they attribute to hand builts, is that the customer will receive personalised after-sales support that he would never get from a factory builder.... but we have learned recently that this could be exactly the opposite and that some builders are overwhelmed by their tasks.


Thoughts? Comments ?


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

I agree 100%!!


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## fa63 (Aug 16, 2007)

I was thinking about the same thing the other day after observing how some people appear to have been programmed to think that factory built wheels cannot possibly be as good as custom built wheels. I will take a upper end factory-built Shimano / Campy wheel over a custom-built one almost every time, especially given how cheap they can be bought these days.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

There are some local wheel builders in town, but none will mess with carbon. Not sure why. 

I can't and won't speak for everyone here, but Zen does a good job. His stuff is really top notch and the amount I save by getting the rims from him is much cheaper than what customer service would cost. I still support my LBS, but my alternatives are Zipp and Mavic. These have proven track records for being somewhat unreliable.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Many of the regulars who bang on & on about Handbuilts versus the plethora of Prebuilts on the market are very experienced cyclists who know that Prebuilts are usually (relative to Hb's) heavy, expensive, contain dedicated parts (which are always expensive, hard to get and often need factory attention).

Most of the Newbs (the question posters), because of the total proliferation of Prebuilts on factory bikes, are not aware of any alternative. They assume, I'll assume, because of the power of marketing, that the bizzarre spoking patterns and low spoke numbers are the holy grail. They think it's ok to ride around on 16 - 24 spoke wheels when they weigh 235 lbs. They don't know that less spokes means more work per spoke and a wheel will go wildly out of true if a spoke breaks. They can't pre-imagine that they won't be able to push their disabled bike, much less ride it home.

While I'll be the first to admitt that cutting edge racers (who weight approx 2lbs per inch of height) need and deserve the lightest wheels, the vast majority of us don't fall into the critera and would be far better served with wheels that don't need a following vehicle.

I'm aware too that there are 325lb posters who claim that they have done 20,000 miles though potholes and their 18/20 spoke wheels have been "bombproof" but there are always extremes everywhere.

To the Prebuilt Users who might chime in at this point - I don't care what wheels you use if you're happy with your choice. I'm trying to offer the Newbs some alternatives that they might not be aware of. Bike shops rarely push custom handbuilts anymore. Profit motivated maybe?

So unless the site owners or moderators start to berate us "spammers" we will (I will for sure) keep passing on the message. For years I always answered "build them yourself" as my (*free* info, at *my* expense) site is meant to motivate potential wheelbuilders into action. Even though my site is still up, I've said this less and less as I know that excellent wheels can be bought ready-built for much less money that they can be built for. Even *I* have bought these wheels and consequently I haven't built a wheel for myself in over two years. I can't afford to.

Salsa, the last time I looked we're in a free society and we're abiding by forum rules (which trump free speech) so if you don't like it then give your own counterpoint to what's being said. After all, free speech works both ways. Doesn't it?

The site owners are well aware that for-profit, non site sponsoring wheelbuilders are on these forums but they're tolerated if they are giving out valuable information and advice. I think it even mentions this in the forum rules. I doubt that blatant "I'll build you a set of Kinlin blah blah for $xxx" posting will be tolerated but they seem to be smart enough to not go there directly. I'll bet PMs work great.

I mention the name of my favorite wheelbuilding company as I'm not in their employ and they *do* sponsor this site with their cash. I'd mention the names of the Kinlin custom builders too if I'd ever bought their wheels and I liked their service. Neither of those things has happened so I let 'em bang their own drum.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I have to side with Mike here. Yes, plenty of good quality factory built wheels, but dollar for dollar 9 times out of 10, going with a custom built wheel makes the most sense, as they can be had for lighter, cheaper (initial and maintanance investment), and are often easier to fix. Heck Salsa, didn't you do another of your famous pictorial on you building a set or two of tubulars from the ground up? Are you saying the performance of your factory Shimanos are dollar for dollar that superior to the tubbies you built yourself?


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Maybe the forum should be broken into numerous different forums - just like the bike manufacturer forums and custom built bike forums are......Just think if everytime you went to the Bikes/Frames forum and posted you want suggestions on a new bike/frame you were bombarded with guys from the custom frame builders telling you that you must go custom or it won't fit!!


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

It's no different from any other topic. People respond with what they know best. Ask about getting a bike for $1500 and you'll hear CAAD9 a million times. It's not the only game in town but because so many people have it and know it you hear it.

Just so happens we have a lot hand build owners here, so naturally you'll hear that.

Seemingly everyone recommends what they have or know best. Some of us are considerate enough to note we own it and/or have not tried the other options to lend perspective....others seem to make recommendations as justification for their own choices. "SRAM V Shimano? Well I have Shimano so that means that's best." You know, that sort of crap. 

Whatever. It's the internet.

Promoting what you think is best is all cool and I think people generally know enough to take internet recommendations for what they are worth and look for verification elsewhere. 

Where this particular branch goes over the top and descends into pure comedy is the sweeping generalizations of "factory built" wheels. Apparently everything built in a factor has weird spokes that take 7 years to be replaced, Las Vagas style bling and are a known cause of herpes.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Bike shops rarely push custom handbuilts anymore. Profit motivated maybe?


Most definitely! If you have access to the wholesale prices it is easy to see why. A custom will have less of a margin, and involves extra work and liability. If they get out of customs they not only don't need to retain a wheelbuilder, they can also just ship the wheel back to the manufacturer if there is an issue. 

Then add all the marketing done by manufacturers which makes the prebuilts an easy sale... it's a no-brainer for the shop. 

Good post overall, Mike...


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## Keeping up with Junior (Feb 27, 2003)

*Experience*

People post questions here because they are looking for the wisdom of those with more experience than themselves. 



Mike T. said:


> Many of the regulars who bang on & on about Handbuilts versus the plethora of Prebuilts on the market are very experienced cyclists who know that Prebuilts are usually (relative to Hb's) heavy, expensive, contain dedicated parts (which are always expensive, hard to get and often need factory attention).


As someone who rides lots and lots of miles with many different riders on a variety of equipment I see a lot of wheels requiring roadside attention. With handbuilt it is usally a matter of opening brake calipers and sometimes a turn of two of a standard spoke wrench. For prebuilts the high tension typically means an unrideable and unrepairable wheel meaning a long walk for someone or my ride is ruined as I go to retreive an automobile to rescue them. Mess up a facotry wheel in the middle of nowhere on a weeklong tour and even if there is a roving mechanic you are looking at a day off from riding and the cost of a new wheel. With a handbuilt the repair is a few dollars with a standard spoke and a six pack of beer. 

So in reality the bias is not towards handbuilt wheels as much as it is towards wheels that simply work well.


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

Hank Stamper said:


> Apparently everything built in a factory ... are a known cause of herpes.


Aha! My Ksyriums are not only unaerodynamic rubbish, but also why I'm shacked up in the dog house at home! Good to know.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I certainly agree with you about the maintenance issues with factory vs. handbuilts, especially in situations where "factory service" isn't readily available. Last year I went to CO to ride for a week with a local riding buddy and several of his friends. My buddy had just bought a new Orbea Orca with Cosmic Carbones. I offered him a set of my handbuilts to ride since they were: (i) lighter, and (ii) easily servicable if a spoke was broken. He readily accepted the offer. I took replacement spokes for both of us and, as expected, they stayed in the tool bag the whole ride. Not saying he would have had an issue with the Carbones, but if he had, his ride may well have been over. 

Another friend was unfortunate enough to have bought into the magic of the R-Sys wheelset. He sent his to back to Mavic in the recall, got his cheap replacements, and that's the last he ever heard from Mavic. He told me that they won't even respond to emails or any form of communication. He ended up spending over 1K for a set of low end OEM wheels that probably cost Mavic a fraction of that to replace. You won't have that fiasco with handbuilts.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

I've not taken the posts as spam. They are informative and opens up other possibilities for people who have wealth of choices. It is nice to hear what is working out there and these come in at a range of prices. While it may not get my wallet to open, if I were to splurge, there are possibilities to consider.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

krisdrum said:


> I have to side with Mike here. Yes, plenty of good quality factory built wheels, but dollar for dollar 9 times out of 10, going with a custom built wheel makes the most sense, as they can be had for lighter, cheaper (initial and maintanance investment), and are often easier to fix. Heck Salsa, didn't you do another of your famous pictorial on you building a set or two of tubulars from the ground up? Are you saying the performance of your factory Shimanos are dollar for dollar that superior to the tubbies you built yourself?


my hand made tubies are the best of the best for Cross, no question about it.

But there is a world of difference compared to the 7850-C24-TU.

BTW the Dura Ace line is hand built by expert workers and calibrated and tested with high end equipment as someone posted on another thread.

-- and I got the 7850-C24-TU. set plus the 7850-C50-TU new, for less than what one Edge Rim costs.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

Salsa_Lover said:


> my hand made tubies are the best of the best for Cross, no question about it.
> 
> But there is a world of difference compared to the 7850-C24-TU.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt the DA's are top quality wheels. And let's face it, Edge rims are the cream of the crop and you are going to pay for thay lineage. I'm not sure it is an entirely fair comparison. 

I just wonder if you took a more generic carbon rim, with anftermarket hub and spokes, laced it up and put it side by side with the DAs, how they'd stack up. I'm going to assume a custom build of this nature could be had for less than what you paid for one set of the DAs. I could be wrong, but doubt the performance difference would be that significant that the added cost would be worthwhile.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> -- and I got the 7850-C24-TU. set plus the 7850-C50-TU new, for less than what one Edge Rim costs.



Well Edge sells factory wheel and you can get hand built with DA hubs so I'm not sure what your point is other that your choices are the best choices.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Yes, and I would'nt buy a "factory" Edge wheel either because of the limited hub/spoke choices, thought I'm giving serious thought to a set of handbuilts with their rims. Also, the DA hubs you can buy aren't the same as they use in their "factory/handbuilt" wheels, so not a fair comparison either.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Hank Stamper said:


> Well Edge sells factory wheel and you can get hand built with DA hubs so I'm not sure what your point is other that your choices are the best choices.


my choices are only that... choices. That are good for me.

The point of this thread is not that. It is the excess of bias and spam in the wheels forum and to invite and open a debate about the subject.

Maybe everybody agrees that the handbuilts are the only good wheels to solve any wheel situation and then we just rename this forum "Handbuilt Wheels".

Or maybe we just take it like they are. A good and viable option among others.

Example, a guy asks about wheels because his Dura Ace front was stolen. simple advice would be "you can get a front replacement from CRC for $300". The answers simply were to turn him into Kinlin handbuilts for near than $1000.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> my choices are only that... choices. That are good for me.
> 
> The point of this thread is not that. It is the excess of bias and spam in the wheels forum and to invite and open a debate about the subject.
> 
> ...


Shoot, if we're talking about bias, never step foot in an LBS. What are the best bikes in the world? The ones they stock. What's junk? The brands they don't carry.


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## SwooshDaddy (May 8, 2009)

When I bought my C'Dale, I had no idea the stock wheelset wasn't made for a 240lb clyde like me. And for the first 2500 miles, they were fine. But after suffering a bent axle and both wheels out of true, I started looking here for replacements. Almost all of the factory wheels have weight limits, and most of them are out of my weight range, so it left me with very few options. The ones I had found that could handle my weight were a bit on the pricey side, so when I contacted a wheelbuilder and we worked out what I would need, the price was definitely a deciding factor. 

Getting a quality wheelset and saving money? Hardly what I would call "spam"


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> -- and I got the 7850-C24-TU. set plus the 7850-C50-TU new, for less than what one Edge Rim costs.


The retail on those two sets is $4400... and you got them for less than the price of an Edge rim which retails for <$800?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

krisdrum said:


> I have no doubt the DA's are top quality wheels. And let's face it, Edge rims are the cream of the crop and you are going to pay for thay lineage. I'm not sure it is an entirely fair comparison.
> 
> I just wonder if you took a more generic carbon rim, with anftermarket hub and spokes, laced it up and put it side by side with the DAs, how they'd stack up. I'm going to assume a custom build of this nature could be had for less than what you paid for one set of the DAs. I could be wrong, but doubt the performance difference would be that significant that the added cost would be worthwhile.


Kris,

after I made my GP4 tubies, I set my mind on building me a set of low profile carbon tubulars on Dura Ace hubs for climbing, Just like the Rasmussen wheels. 24mm carbon rims and 20/24 DA 7800 hubs.

I hunted the market for those hubs with no avail. 

I could get newer DA 7900 28/24 hubs, plus carbon rims and CX Rays at a price close of $1000 for the set counting cost, shipping, taxes etc.

I had the luck to find a set of new 7850-C24-TU for $1050 and I just jumped on it.

At the end, those wheels were based on that same Rasmussen custom set. it is the model produced for the masses.

I was afraid that it was a set of wheels built by evil machines operated by starving children on dark asian dungeons.... but they turned to be wheels hand built and tested by experts as seen here.

I am superbly happy with them... then I could get the C50 set for $1100 I am now happier than a dog with two tails.


Article about how are the shimano and the Dura Ace wheels built
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/a-look-inside-shimanos-shrouded-wheel-factory


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

I agree that there is a lot of bias towards certain handbuilt wheels. I've stopped reading a lot of threads on wheelsets as the reply's tend to be the same.


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

I was on handbuilt AC-350's and wanted to try a change. I'll say this: the Dura-Ace clinchers I'm on now are certainly a superb wheelset thus far. But as others have noted the D-A lineup is given more attention than the other Shimano wheels.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Couldn't agree more*



Mike T. said:


> Many of the regulars who bang on & on about Handbuilts versus the plethora of Prebuilts on the market are very experienced cyclists who know that Prebuilts are usually (relative to Hb's) heavy, expensive, contain dedicated parts (which are always expensive, hard to get and often need factory attention).


IMO one of the most negative trends in the bike biz in the last decade has been the shift to these wheels, resulting in higher costs and a lot more pain in the butt for the average rider and no performance improvement whatsoever.

It's not that (all) prebuilts are bad wheels, it's that they are a pretty poor value.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

MCF said:


> Maybe the forum should be broken into numerous different forums - just like the bike manufacturer forums and custom built bike forums are......Just think if everytime you went to the Bikes/Frames forum and posted you want suggestions on a new bike/frame you were bombarded with guys from the custom frame builders telling you that you must go custom or it won't fit!!


LoL... Seriuosly, I have to agree. If we have the cash and inclination, we all know your all out there just ready to build a Kick A$$ set of wheels but sometimes folks just want opinions on good 'nuff sets of nice wheels.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

All are good wheels, even many now justifying the purchase of the generic carbon's.. I see much of the bias having to do with high quality better price and often lower weight than those that are prebuilt (yes, by machine or hand). 

It is what it is. In many cases the custom just seems like a better wheel for the price. I would rather advise that to people because it is what I find more important, however there is nothing wrong with prebuilt's.......


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I guess I fall into that too-heavy-for-the-wheels category too. I am a Clyde and my bike came with Alex Race28s 20/24. I know the rims and the spoke count aren't really designed for my weight, but so far they have held up remarkably well. But, as with all things internet, that's just my experience, YMMV, etc.

To the OP's point, though, start any new thread with the question of what is the best bang-for-the-buck upgrade for a stock bike and "new wheels" are usually at the top of the list. That may well be true, but it shouldn't get to a point where it becomes an automatic response.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Many of the regulars who bang on & on about Handbuilts versus the plethora of Prebuilts on the market are very experienced cyclists who know that Prebuilts are usually (relative to Hb's) heavy, expensive, contain dedicated parts (which are always expensive, hard to get and often need factory attention).
> 
> Most of the Newbs (the question posters), because of the total proliferation of Prebuilts on factory bikes, are not aware of any alternative. They assume, I'll assume, because of the power of marketing, that the bizzarre spoking patterns and low spoke numbers are the holy grail. They think it's ok to ride around on 16 - 24 spoke wheels when they weigh 235 lbs. They don't know that less spokes means more work per spoke and a wheel will go wildly out of true if a spoke breaks. They can't pre-imagine that they won't be able to push their disabled bike, much less ride it home.
> 
> ...



Well said!!:thumbsup:


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't really understand how it's "spam" when someone's giving you good, correct advice for free. I enjoy this forum _because_ of the wheelbuilders here who take their time to post and answer questions. I don't care that they do it partly because they gain customers out of the deal. That's fine. That's good, even - it encourages them to give more back to the forum and be more of a resource. No offense, but I don't come here and read because I want to hear you talk about how you like your dura-ace wheels. I like dura ace wheels. I've ridden them. I have nothing against them. I don't have anything against you having your opinion either, but you haven't given any information other than the fact that you like them. That is useless to the rest of us, and we come here because there's useful information.

Good for you. I'm happy for you. I'm glad you're riding a good pair of wheels. Please don't attempt to chase away the reason this forum is awesome - and that is the custom wheelbuilders that give great info away for free.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

It's not 'spam' per se, but it's curious that the ones who always crap on the prebuilts happen to be wheelbuilders who make their living recommending and building high $ builds.

And don't get confused over the fact that you can get customs for less than all prebuilts, because you cannot! Sure, a set of customs can run you less than a set of Ksyriums, or HED, or Zipps, but you can also get a great prebuilts for considerably less. 
ROL, Williams and Boyd all make handbuilt wheels that are great, built with easy to replace parts and deliver the same performance as the over-priced boutique stuff.

ROL Race SLs cost $589. They're handbuilt with Kinlin 30 hoops, DT Aerolite spokes and ROLs machined hubs. The hubs always seem to be called into question, but let me assure you that they are as well built and smooth than most high $ hubsets on the market. Spec a wheelset with the same hoops, spokes and a DT Swiss 240 hubset. They'll cost you more than $600 once they're done and in your hands!


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Who pay full list price on the prebuilts ?

I've never had.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

backinthesaddle said:


> it's curious that the ones who always crap on the prebuilts happen to be wheelbuilders who make their living recommending and building high $ builds.


Your observation isn't correct. I probably crap on the prebuilts as much as (or more than) anyone and I certainly don't make a living from building wheels. I'm the exact opposite - I build some for others (friends or friends of friends) and have for decades and have yet to charge anyone a penny. I even go one step further - I operate my website that encourages newbs to build their first wheels and provides general wheel and wheelbuilding knowledge - all on my dollar, or a hundred of them per year to be exact. I even provide, at the end, links to the best wheel resources I know of - and I make zero from that too.

Plus.......I can't think of any of those around here who do make a living from wheels that crap on the prebuilts. As far as I can see they just answer some questions, give out info and suggest certain builds. One builder that springs to mind never says at the end of his advice ".....and I can build these for you." Oh we all know that it's implied (and the forum peeps, I'm sure, are aware of this too) but it's not blatant. As long as they are contributors, and not just spammers, they survive.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Who pay full list price on the prebuilts ?
> 
> I've never had.


I don't think anyone pays list. However, even with my shop discount, it's still cheaper for me to get hand builts. I suppose I could save a few bucks if I downgraded the hub, but not a big issue since I'm already saving money.


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## Stogaguy (Feb 11, 2006)

*My $0.02...*

Lots of good points raised here on both sides of the issue. Here are my thoughts:

1. Look at what lots of top pros actually ride in the cobbled classics: lots of 32h 3-cross hand built wheels. Granted there a lots of factory built wheels as well. However, marketing and sponsorship considerations tend to push pro teams toward factory wheels, so you have to ask yourself why the high spoke count hand builts?... This is a pretty strong endorsement for the reliability of properly built traditional wheels.

2. I have both low-mid level factory wheels and hand builts and they both work just fine. But if I am going on rough roads in the middle of BFE, I ride the hand-builts for all of the ease of repair reasons cited by others.

3. I was initially skeptical about factory wheels (old school curmudgeon), but my experience has been very positive.

Bottom line either option will work for most people (IMHO). Also IMHO, heavier riders should go hand built route for their everyday wheels.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Bottom line, there're good and bad samples from both camps. Ride whatever floats your boat.

-Eric


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Stogaguy said:


> 1. Look at what lots of top pros actually ride in the cobbled classics: lots of 32h 3-cross hand built wheels. Granted there a lots of factory built wheels as well. However, marketing and sponsorship considerations tend to push pro teams toward factory wheels, so you have to ask yourself why the high spoke count hand builts?... This is a pretty strong endorsement for the reliability of properly built traditional wheels.


The reason for this is that:

a) a shallow aluminum tubular can experience a fair amount of vertical flex before it takes a permanent bend. Good for when you slam into a big rock. 

b) these shallow rims need lots of spokes, but lots of spokes are nice to have anyway, since the wheel doesn't go far out of true if one breaks. 

These races are unique in that extreme road hazards are a given, and follow vehicles have a tough time staying close to the team leaders. So the ability to hit large rocks and suffer some damage and still be able to ride for awhile gives some piece of mind. If this isn't a road surface that you typically ride on, then you may have different priorities. Also note that Cancellara and some other riders still opt for aero rims for their benefit on smoother sections.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ergott said:


> Bottom line, there're good and bad samples from both camps. Ride whatever floats your boat.


But what drives me on to keep saying what I do is that most Newbs only know of pre-built boutique wheels because this is all they see in bike shops, catalogs and advertisements. They don't know there are alternatives that just might be better for them. They don't know that they don't have to buy $1000 - $1500 wheelsets or their $220 lookalikes. They don't know that they can spend $350 and get a lighter wheelset than if they spent 2-4x that price or spend $850 and get wheels, arguably, as good as anything out there, unless it's $2500+ that they're willing to spend.

They come here weekly. :mad2: Guys like me point out that there are alternatives. It's a never ending job.

I ride with guys like this and they brag on about their Ksyrium this & that and I never say a word. And I'm smug with my $350 wheels that are a few hundred grams lighter.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> But what drives me on to keep saying what I do is that most Newbs only know of pre-built boutique wheels because this is all they see in bike shops, catalogs and advertisements. They don't know there are alternatives that just might be better for them. They don't know that they don't have to buy $1000 - $1500 wheelsets or their $220 lookalikes. They don't know that they can spend $350 and get a lighter wheelset than if they spent 2-4x that price or spend $850 and get wheels, arguably, as good as anything out there, unless it's $2500+ that they're willing to spend.
> 
> They come here weekly. :mad2: Guys like me point out that there are alternatives. It's a never ending job.
> 
> I ride with guys like this and they brag on about their Ksyrium this & that and I never say a word. And I'm smug with my $350 wheels that are a few hundred grams lighter.


I agree 100%

Cheers,
Eric


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*bias?*

Don't know if I would call it spam, but I might well call it bias. Someone who makes his living selling custom built wheels is not likely going to be giving fair, impartial, advice when it comes to, for example, custom vs. Ksyriums. 

Everyone is biased in some way. It could be from experience, how you make money, or maybe even stupidity. As long as others are aware of the bias, then I don't think there is a problem. If a custom wheelbuilder is both marketing his wheels (even indirectly) and giving advice, but not disclosing it, then I don't think that is being very honest. If he is upfront about it, then take it for what it's worth and make your own judgment.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

"Wheel systems" are a mixed bag. Their appeal is that you don't have to think as much about what goes into them, but manufacturers prey on that perception and overcharge for some pretty so-so productss.

There could be a lot of discussion about which systems are legit and which are a sham. Or, just about any rider could be better served by a traditional hand-built configuration. IMO, unless you are looking for something extremely light/aero or willing to roll the dice on durability, wheel systems are an inferior choice.


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## medimond (Apr 26, 2009)

I just drank the handbuilt water last week and now 200+ miles later couldn't be more happy. In my 6 month deliberation there is a price point where handbuilts make a better option IMO.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

medimond said:


> I just drank the handbuilt water last week and now 200+ miles later couldn't be more happy. In my 6 month deliberation there is a price point where handbuilts make a better option IMO.



That interesting... I've been doing my research on this issue for a while now and my conclusion is that when it comes to aero wheels 50mm in depth a prebuilt is the cheaper way to go. You know what they say, cheap, light, durable - pick two. When it comes to aero, I still think prebuilts win out on this. 

Glad you like your wheels.

I'm finally looking to get a set of Dura Ace aero wheels. I think they're gonna be perfect for me (except for the red nipples, I dunno why they had to do that).


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

the newer Dura Ace C35 and C50 come with black nipples

I personally like them red.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> They don't know there are alternatives that just might be better for them. They don't know that they don't have to buy $1000 - $1500 wheelsets or their $220 lookalikes. They don't know that they can spend $350 and get a lighter wheelset than if they spent 2-4x that price or spend $850 and get wheels, arguably, as good as anything out there, unless it's $2500+ that they're willing to spend.
> 
> They come here weekly. :mad2: Guys like me point out that there are alternatives. It's a never ending job.
> 
> I ride with guys like this and they brag on about their Ksyrium this & that and I never say a word. And I'm smug with my $350 wheels that are a few hundred grams lighter.


Thats the thing...most people don't know you can get a set of handbuilts for 350.

Alot of people (like me) assume that HB wheels cost in the 1k+ range...thats mostly what I see in here...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

AvantDale said:


> Thats the thing...most people don't know you can get a set of handbuilts for 350.
> Alot of people (like me) assume that HB wheels cost in the 1k+ range...thats mostly what I see in here...


Handbuilt road wheels start at $135 from BWW. I doubt they have any for over $1000.

I'm wrong. $1121 with hi-zoot DT 190 hubs with ceramic bearings -

http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=120


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Thoughts? Comments ?


:aureola:


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

medimond said:


> In my 6 month deliberation there is a price point where handbuilts make a better option IMO.


True. Guys who are working on their own cannot make a decent living by offering customs in the low $ range, but outfits like BWW seem to be doing all right in this market. 

Once you get up to around $600+ there are a lot of options in quality components and craftsmanship that are made in the USA. That is an appealing feature to some people compared to pre-builts that are made in huge 3rd world factories. When you factor in the customizable aspect, and the non-proprietary parts, usually lighter weight and better aerodynamics, and lower price too... customs are easy to sell. Not to everybody, but to some. 

Some of the factory wheels in this price range are pretty good... in theory it should be possible to make a better wheel by starting from scratch and using proprietary parts. But unfortunately many have tried so hard to distinguish themselves, that they've also abandoned sensible wheel design. In that case you end up with the worst of everything.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> Handbuilt road wheels start at $135 from BWW. I doubt they have any for over $1000.
> 
> I'm wrong. $1121 with hi-zoot DT 190 hubs with ceramic bearings -
> 
> http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=120



What I find both suspicous and funny is that no handbuilder or single builder can take that same $135 wheel and throw a carbon fairing on it and just add the price of the carbon to the cost of the wheel... No way in hell a carbon faring - even laced into the wheel is $500 or more all by itself.

There's some handbuilders really missing an opportuinity out there... Or the materials they purchase are severely overpriced.

Or wait, are there any handbuilders building carbon/aluminum rim wheels?


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Salsa_Lover said:


> the newer Dura Ace C35 and C50 come with black nipples
> 
> I personally like them red.


Weird, I can't find those anywhere. Can you tell me where you saw this?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

they are new, still not on the open market, but will be soon, release expected when the TDF starts

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...-c35-wheels-ready-in-time-for-the-tour_123769


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## bigreen505 (Jun 10, 2007)

rruff said:


> Some of the factory wheels in this price range are pretty good... in theory it should be possible to make a better wheel by starting from scratch and using proprietary parts. But unfortunately many have tried so hard to distinguish themselves, that they've also abandoned sensible wheel design. In that case you end up with the worst of everything.


I have to say that for the most part I'm with Salsa_Lover and the general "I can build you a great set of wheels for $1,000 - $3,000 and anything else is expensive junk" attitude is tiring. If you want to advertise, buy an ad. That said, Ron has a great point that comparing value and price, boutique hand-built wheels shine at certain price points, even compared with hand-builts from a local builder.

Compared with a hand-builder, factories lower the price by cutting corners or cutting options. It may very well be that the corners that are cut are completely irrelevant to a particular buyer (for example a less environmentally friendly manufacturing process or customer service). The Dura Ace wheels, which are really hand-builts, are only available in a single configuration for each model -- you can't change spoking or color.

There are very few wheels where you can accurately compare a factory wheel and a hand-built, and the ones that I have seen (Zipp Team Issue Clincher, DT Mon Chasseral) are very similar in cost and quality to a hand-built of similar spec, assuming you are ok with the parts. If you want a set of wheels built around CK hubs, you have to go hand built.

Ksyriums and particularly the R-Sys are a perfect example of marketing driven wheels and what a lot of people here soap-box against. They are expensive and proprietary with little benefit to anyone. The Campy wheels aren't much different, but seem better thought out. To me the Dura Ace wheels are in a different league and show what happens when you use proprietary components to work as a system and combine with high build quality.

I say this as someone who currently rides Ksyriums, one set of Taiwanese factory built wheels (Ritchey), and one set of hand built wheels from Taiwanese components (Ritchey WCS). FWIW, the build quality on the factory built Ritcheys far surpass the hand built ones.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

I just don't understand why people would pay $2000 for any wheelset unless it was a set of Edge 45's with Alchemy, WI, or DT Swiss hubs. Can someone explain?


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## luca.grigo (Apr 29, 2010)

MCF said:


> I just don't understand why people would pay $2000 for any wheelset unless it was a set of Edge 45's with Alchemy, WI, or DT Swiss hubs. Can someone explain?


Nice stickers?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

MCF said:


> I just don't understand why people would pay $2000 for any wheelset unless it was a set of Edge 45's with Alchemy, WI, or DT Swiss hubs. Can someone explain?


Persuasive advertising?


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm holding out until there is something better so I can get a set of above decribed wheels for $1400....I hope my Reynolds hold up for a long time. Hehehe..


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

They wouldn't charge that much if the wheels weren't worth it, would they?


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

MCF said:


> I just don't understand why people would pay $2000 for any wheelset unless it was a set of Edge 45's with Alchemy, WI, or DT Swiss hubs. Can someone explain?


Many people dont have to, you can get Zipps for $1800 new and I cant find Edge 45s with alchemy hubs for less than $2300. Unless certain people get special deals from certain wheelbuilders...


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

I would really like to know what the failure rating per unit sold is in a comparison of handbuilts and factory. I am sure it is not nearly as bad as many here try to make you believe since there are so many factroy builts sold in comparison to hanbuilts. 

What say you???


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

bigreen505 said:


> I have to say that for the most part I'm with Salsa_Lover and the general "I can build you a great set of wheels for $1,000 - $3,000 and anything else is expensive junk" attitude is tiring. If you want to advertise, buy an ad. That said, Ron has a great point that comparing value and price, boutique hand-built wheels shine at certain price points, even compared with hand-builts from a local builder.
> 
> *Compared with a hand-builder, factories lower the price by cutting corners or cutting options.* It may very well be that the corners that are cut are completely irrelevant to a particular buyer (for example a less environmentally friendly manufacturing process or customer service). The Dura Ace wheels, which are really hand-builts, are only available in a single configuration for each model -- you can't change spoking or color.
> 
> ...


not only that..

Builders like Shimano or Mavic can make economies of scale that a custom builder lacing wheels on his kitchen table simply can't.

True, a ( maybe important) part of the list price is to cover research and development, marketing and logistics costs.

However, if we all chose not to pay them the part of the cost that covers research and development, we would end with an stalled industry where innovation had been killed.

on the other hand a guy promoting his wheels here, compares his prices to the full list price of the factory wheels, but you can do great economies buying those prebuilts from online discounters or when on sale or liquidation. Who pays full list price anyway ?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

JimT said:


> I would really like to know what the failure rating per unit sold is in a comparison of handbuilts and factory. I am sure it is not nearly as bad as many here try to make you believe since there are so many factroy builts sold in comparison to hanbuilts.
> 
> What say you???



We only know about 3 real R-SYS failures documented on teh InterWebzs, one of them was recognised by the team mechanic as a failure due to a crash.

However people here try to demonize the R-Sys and with it the whole line of Mavic products, just to promote theirs.

Why ? because Mavic was very successful to market their products.

Remember the Helium and then the Ksyrium that many people criticize now, was a revolutionary design, that changed forever the way wheels are built and marketed, it actually reduced to a niche market the hand builders.

The Ksyrium was the best wheel you could buy at some point, lighter and stronger than the other wheels at the time ( usually 36x3 or 32x3 handbuilts ) 

Obviously now, a decade after, many other wheel designs and builders are avaliable so the Ksyrium is not the best wheel around, there are many other good wheelsets to chose from

I laugh when I read their rants about the Ksyrium and that it won't stand a 180lbs rider ( I have been 190 on them without issue ) or that a 20/24 configuration would be too weak for a 170lbs rider etc. Simply not true. I am now 178lbs and am on a 16/20 wheelset with no issues, but there is a guy now posting about his spokes breaking on a custom built set.

About the R-SYS, I see it as innovation, maybe not in the right direction but is an start, from a company who really innovates... they made the Mektronic without success, now Dura Ace DI2 takes over the desing and makes it right... probably would be the case with the R-SYS some day. In any case the R-SYS is not the wheel I want to ride. But you see it on the Pro Tour, and on CicloCross bikes, where the wheels are really pushed to their limits.... no issues whatsoever... go figure.

Just think about it, what happens if you kill innovation ?


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> Persuasive advertising?


Much of that going on around here for free, manufacturers have to pay...


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

JimT said:


> Many people dont have to, you can get Zipps for $1800 new and I cant find Edge 45s with alchemy hubs for less than $2300. Unless certain people get special deals from certain wheelbuilders...


Agreed, but when you are paying $1800 for Zipps, $1900 for Eastons, what's another couple hundred for what I understand is the absolute best. I think you can get Edge 45s with WI hubs for $2200, maybe a little less.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

I just got '10 Eastons EC90 SL Tubulars for $950.00 from Ebay and they will get the warranty. Just shipped yesterday. I would have loved to have bought the Edge 45s but I will take the chance and for the price I can still outfit my other road bike with a set and just about have enough for a 5th wheel for just in case.


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

What I don't like about custom, is that when ever some one comes on here looking for a wheelset. The custom builders chime in with, "I can build you a super stiff set, with klingon rims, x-ray spasm spokes and photon hubs," or whatever. It sounds like their made by Star Trek. I don't know what these products are. Are White Ind. better than DT Swiss. Is klingon better that Genghis khan rims? I don't know. You ask here, you'll just get arguments. 

Then there is no picture, no price stated, etc...
I can go into a store, see the wheels, touch the wheels, put them on my bike to see if I like the ride/look and see the price. All without paying shipping, waiting for weeks, talking or emailing to someone I can't see. 
I paid $400.00 for my K SL's. My shop upgraded me. I'm 150 #'s. I don't need a super stiff wheel. I love the SL's, and in 6500 miles, haven't had an issue, and I can go into my shop if my wheel does fail, and get a loaner. Can't do that with mail order rims. I'm sure it's a phone call/email then waiting for a replacement, etc... So don't tell me factory wheels are inconvenient just because you can't carry a spoke with you. 

We can all go on the internet and see the prices for factory wheels, or post what we got them for. Why not let the builders here, post their prices? 

I'm 150 lbs. I want something less stiff than my SL's. I don't care how many spokes or what rims it has. I want something that looks good, is lighter than my SL's, and is cheaper than $400. Who wants to step up to the plate with a picture, a price, and a guarantee that these will be what I want? (being hypothetical second sentence).

Also, I posted a thread about Revolution wheels, if any one had any experience with them. I got a pm from another custom wheel builder that said he would build me something else, for more $$, if I posted comments on the forum. What kind of business model is that?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

maximum7 said:


> What I don't like about custom, is that when ever some one comes on here looking for a wheelset. The custom builders chime in with, "I can build you a super stiff set, with klingon rims, x-ray spasm spokes and photon hubs," or whatever. It sounds like their made by Star Trek. I don't know what these products are. Are White Ind. better than DT Swiss. Is klingon better that Genghis khan rims? I don't know. You ask here, you'll just get arguments.
> 
> Then there is no picture, no price stated, etc...
> I can go into a store, see the wheels, touch the wheels, put them on my bike to see if I like the ride/look and see the price. All without paying shipping, waiting for weeks, talking or emailing to someone I can't see.
> ...


That's what's great about all this. You have the right to ignore the "buy handbuilts" advice and get what makes you feel warm & fuzzy - the factory prebuilts. No-one really minds. Some of us just want to let Newbs know that there *is* a choice.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Mike, there lies the problem

There is no balance in the opinions, 

look at any N00b thread : the script goes like this.

Q : I'm a clyde what wheels should I get 
A : Ultegra/OP from BWW our one and only sponsor where I have not part in the gains.

Q : But I want something lighter
A : Blackset from BWW our one and only sponsor where I have not part in the gains.

Q : I broke a K spoke where can I get a replacement
A : Ks are evil, and the RSYS is worst than the Aids, get some Klingons/Toone from me

Q : How about china aero wheels are they any good
A : they are shite, get some Edges because they have laser-micro-sculpted holes from me

Q : Looking for a replacement for my lost Dura Ace front wheel
A : time to look at handbuilts the best thing since sliced bread, Klingons for you.


etc etc-

and this repeats to the absurdum.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm not understanding your issue here Salsa. If the same questions keep coming up and the same people are passionate enough to hang around this forum to help those in need of answers and if the personal opinions of those people doesn't change then how can the message change? Just because you don't like the message is totally irrelevant. I personally don't like the proliferation of overpriced, overweight, undervalue pre-builts but I accept that they exist and I try to do my little part, because I'm passionate about wheels and certainly passionate about assisting others, in trying to stem the tide of these wheels. I know I won't succeed as the hand-builders can't give Mr Specialized or Mr Giant a better deal or even come close to filling their needs.

But it's my opinion that some people might benefit from knowing that something other than the R-Sys garbage or the Ksyrium or the low-end 20/24 spoke Shimano wheels (heavier than my OP/Ulteg/32h) exist and that, armed with knowledge that there *is* something else out there (and they wouldn't know if they hadn't stopped by RBR) then they just might make a better choice than if all they knew of was what was on the bikes they saw at their LBS or in Bicycling magazine.

And just because you don't like what I or others are saying means diddly. I can't go away or not give out the advice just because you object. That would be self-oppressing my freedom of speech and thought just to make you happy wouldn't it?

If you don't like the balance of opinions then feel free to change that. Just don't insult me/us, as you are coming very close to that with your current post. Just play nice and add your opinion. Or maybe you could recruit other people to post - you know, someone as dedicated as me who has been at RBR since its inception (I spread the same word at MTBR too, where I've been since the mid god-knows-when). You've just gotta find someone who's retired and passionate.

I should add this - thanks for this excellent topic and thread. It's been the best breath of fresh air around here for a long time. It sure beats (no, not "beats"; it's just a change from) giving out wheel advice and/or opinion. But then your topic just might be having the opposite effect than what you originally intended. Maybe, just maybe, you helped "my" cause better than I ever did.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

the only issue is that this is a forum for discussing wheels and tires

so there should be a kind of balance, people sharing their experiences with the handbuilts, the prebuilts, the good deals online, the discounts, how do you fixed your problems with your wheels, comparisons between different models etc etc etc.

In this forum there is that info, but is inmersed on a sea of Mavic bashing and handbuilts plugs.

that is the only point.

I love my handbuilts, built by me BTW, the wheel where I spend most Kms is a Mavic A319/105 hubs set on my commuter. I ride my tubular handbuilts on the cross bike and I am absolutely happy with them. My rain bike is fitted with a Ultegra/OpenPro/Cont 4Seasons set.

there is not a problem with the handbuilts.

the only problem is that is evident that the bias here is there, and it is because theres is a clear interesest to promote their own sales.

that's all.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> the only problem is that is evident that the bias here is there, and it is because theres is a clear interesest to promote their own sales.
> that's all.


Ok I'll give it to you bluntly as the message doesn't seem to be getting through -

Then *FIX THAT*, not by oppression or censorship or intimidation but by *MAKING THE CHANGE THAT YOU DESIRE*. We (me the passionate wheelperson and them the custom builders) *WON'T DO IT FOR YOU OR HELP YOU.* 

:thumbsup:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> My rain bike is fitted with a Ultegra/OpenPro/Cont 4Seasons set.


That's exactly what I have on my dirt road/trail bike - my mint Masi. Perfection - as long as I don't air up those tires too much. See it in my profile.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> so there should be a kind of balance, people sharing their experiences with the handbuilts, the prebuilts, the good deals online, the discounts, how do you fixed your problems with your wheels, comparisons between different models etc etc etc.
> 
> the only problem is that is evident that the bias here is there, and it is because theres is a clear interesest to promote their own sales.
> 
> that's all.


I think you are reading with a bias. I have read plenty of positive reviews of the better factory wheels out there. Campagnolo/Fulcrum, Shimano, Mavic (I still think R-Sys are **** in comparison), Reynolds and a few others all make great wheels. Some companies have better models in their lineup than others. If you get a great deal on a great set of wheels, even better. 

The biggest issue I have (and I don't paste this everywhere, every day) is that factory wheel, alloy rims cost anywhere from 50% to 150% more than standard alloy rims. The spokes/nipples are marked up even more than that. Rims are a wear item and they are susceptible to impact damage and that's a fact of life for riders who race, ride in packs or on crappy roads. You can buy a replacement program, but at least according to Mavic's MP3 program, you are not covered for wear items (brake wear).

That means you have a higher maintenance cost if you plan on keeping your wheels for more than a few years. If you wear out a set of rims on a traditional set of wheels you pay less for the rims/spokes/nipples and you can get the work done by any competent mechanic. The longer you keep your wheels, the cheaper they become (another reason why I recommend the best hubs you can get if you ask me). 

I understand that there are a couple of posters that preach loud and clear the benefits of handbuilts in every query, but please don't lump all of us in the same boat. I spend most of my time here answering technical questions and offering my experience when someone asks advise about particular builds.

-Eric


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Not sure what else can be said Salsa... All the bases of this thread seem to be covered, factory and non factory, pre built and custom, BWW and LBS, and on, and on, and on. Thank you for your biased opinion of biased advice.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

penn_rider said:


> Not sure what else can be said Salsa... All the bases of this thread seem to be covered, factory and non factory, pre built and custom, BWW and LBS, and on, and on, and on. Thank you for your biased opinion of biased advice.


I was thinking the same thoughts myself Penn. That's a great summing up. Let's hope we're all done with this.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Does Mavic make good wheels?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

MCF said:


> Does Mavic make good wheels?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Mike T. said:


>


This gave me a good chuckle


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

MCF said:


> Does Mavic make good wheels?


Quite honestly, yes. The Cosmic Carbone line of wheels is great. Their rear hubs require more maintenance than I'd prefer, but it's not that big of a deal. Their track wheels are just about the best you can get. Their budget oriented Cosmic Elites are nice as well.

I still believe that you can do better than their R-Sys and Ksyrium lines almost every time (barring someone giving them to you).

-Eric


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

So, aero wheels with an aluminum rim are only built by the bigger names in the industry then?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

MaddSkillz said:


> So, aero wheels with an aluminum rim are only built by the bigger names in the industry then?


The only alloy rim depth factory wheels can get the you can't get separately is the 34mm AC 420 rim. Anyone can get 27mm, 30mm and 43mm rims.

Did you have any other rims in mind?

-Eric


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Zen Cyclery said:


> This gave me a good chuckle


I posted that because I'm not sure of the opinion I should have


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

ergott said:


> The only alloy rim depth factory wheels can get the you can't get separately is the 34mm AC 420 rim. Anyone can get 27mm, 30mm and 43mm rims.
> 
> Did you have any other rims in mind?
> 
> -Eric


I really don't know what you're asking. I don't know wheels to that extent... But I'm thinking Carbone, Zipp 404 or 303's (alum rim), Dura Ace etc...

I've not yet seen a handbuilder offer a similar option. 

Why is that? Or have I just missed it?


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Eric and you are talking about two entirely different types of rims. Eric was giving you info on All Alloy clincher rims, but your question was really about Carbon rims with Alloy braking surfaces, even though the Carbones doesn't really fall into that latter category as the "carbon" is not structural and is more of a "fairing. Eric and the other builders can certainly source the Carbon/Alloy clincher rims through Zipp, Flashpoint and possibly others, if that is what you ask them to build for you. However, I think when most people get to that price point they tend to lean towards the all carbon rims because of the weight issues, etc. that people focus on when spending 2K+ on a wheelset.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Mike, there lies the problem
> 
> There is no balance in the opinions,
> 
> ...


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## luca.grigo (Apr 29, 2010)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Mike, there lies the problem
> 
> There is no balance in the opinions,
> 
> ...


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Salsa_Lover
> Mike, there lies the problem
> 
> There is no balance in the opinions,
> ...


:thumbsup: I concur.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

If I only had a nickle for every time I heard..... I just might buy a set of Edge 45s with alchemy hubs...

Maybe we should do something like a "cuss jar" everytime somebody mentions handbuilt in a thread about factory wheels or bashes someone who has/bought factory wheels that person needs to donate 25 cents to the forum since most wheel companies and private sellers have to pay for advertising, classifieds or sponsorship.

Jim


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

cdhbrad said:


> Eric and you are talking about two entirely different types of rims. Eric was giving you info on All Alloy clincher rims, but your question was really about Carbon rims with Alloy braking surfaces, even though the Carbones doesn't really fall into that latter category as the "carbon" is not structural and is more of a "fairing. Eric and the other builders can certainly source the Carbon/Alloy clincher rims through Zipp, Flashpoint and possibly others, if that is what you ask them to build for you. However, I think when most people get to that price point they tend to lean towards the all carbon rims because of the weight issues, etc. that people focus on when spending 2K+ on a wheelset.


Okay, let's take the Carbone SL for example... A heavy wheel, but obviously durable. These wheels can probably be had for $1200 or less if you shopped around. 

Is there not a builder out there that could build them up for less and possibly even lighter? There's a lot to be said for an alloy rim. Just look at how many sets the big companies sell. Even the Dura Ace's can be had for under $2k. 

I see these wheels all over, in races, at group rides... They're still very popular. And I like the idea of a more sure stopping surface and the durability as well... The weight doesn't even bother me at all as the type of riding around these parts is not the hilliest.

I guess I'm just not sold on a full-carbon wheelset, mostly due to price when there's options out there that may actually be better for me anyway in an alloy rim. The price certainly curbs the desire to fork out the money to _try_ them.


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## alexb618 (Aug 24, 2006)

even though i may not agree 100% i would rather hear someone recommend 'kinlin rims and ultegra hubs 32h' than some marketing garbage about the latest nano tube carbon spoke wheel system for $2000.


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## JimT (Jul 18, 2007)

I think a separate wheelbuilders forum is a great idea. Builders can promote their wares there and people can exchange building knowledge as well. I think it would be a win-win for all.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

MaddSkillz said:


> Okay, let's take the Carbone SL for example... A heavy wheel, but obviously durable. These wheels can probably be had for $1200 or less if you shopped around.
> 
> Is there not a builder out there that could build them up for less and possibly even lighter? There's a lot to be said for an alloy rim. Just look at how many sets the big companies sell. Even the Dura Ace's can be had for under $2k.


It depends on whether or not the rim is available. In this case it isn't. Hed rims are similar but they also do not sell just the rims. 

Zipp originally sold the Flashpoint rims (which are similar to their premium clinchers only without the dimples) for a good price, then quickly realized their error and jacked the price up, then quit selling them at all. All of the wheel companies favor their *wheel* business and only sell rims at prices that are high (if at all), so that customs built with them end up more expensive. We can get Zipp, Edge, and Reynolds rims but only the premium models, and builds with them will not be cheap.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

JimT said:


> If I only had a nickle for every time I heard..... I just might buy a set of Edge 45s with alchemy hubs...


You are more than welcome to state your alternative opinion and why...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> and this repeats to the absurdum.


Anyone in particular in mind?


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

I guess I will throw my 2 cents in. Some of you will see this as spam but I assure you it is not. 

I have been accused of using this forum to sell wheels, which I have made a few sales from I admit. The thing is most of the guys I am selling wheels to either have never heard of this forum or visit very rarely. I am sure some of you will find that hard to believe but it is true, this forum is not the center of the cycling advise universe. I get more guys saying that they found out about me from their local bike shop then all of the cycling forums combined. If you go back and look at my posts you will see that most of my posts are answering tech related questions and have nothing to do with me pushing anything that I sell. 

A few months back I sent a email asking about being a title sponsor of the wheel and tire forum. I was told that I could not be at this time because there already was one and that I would have to wait until that person stopped paying and then I could take over. It is currently ROL and BWW, so until either of those give up their sponsorship of this forum I cannot do it. So I have tried to pay for advertising space here on RBR but there was no space left. They did have other options of having banners in the monthly news letter but I declined that because I delete the monthly news letter without reading it and I figured there are probably quite a few others who do the same thing. 

While on the phone with the guy from RBR i asked about what as a business I can and cannot post. I was told that if someone asks about wheels I am allowed to respond to that question by suggesting my own product and even give them prices. So even though I am allowed by RBR to do this I do not ever suggest my own product or post prices. I will suggest other builders or products though and have many times. What I am not allowed to do is start threads to push my product.

To the guy that asked why custom builders aren't adding a carbon fairing to a rim to make a Carbone type wheel, if it were only that easy. I have worked for a company that made their own carbon fairing rim and it is not as easy as just adding it to a existing rim. First you need to make a mold. We had a in house machine shop to make it for us but is still took them multiple days to make a all steel mold large enough to make a rim in. Then you need a heated press that will both heat the mold and put it under pressure at the same time. Once you have all that and can make the rim fairing you still need a alloy rim that is the right shape that the fairing can be bonded on without interfering with the brake surface. Once you have the fairing bonded on you need to cut slots through the fairing at the correct angles needed for what ever specific hole count and cross pattern you are building. 

As far as pre-built wheels go, I think their a lot of good ones and a lot of bad ones. If I am asked a question about the ones that I think are bad should I not give a truthful answer just because just because their are a few guys on here that look at every post by a custom wheel builder as spam? For those interested, I think Campy builds fantastic wheels, so does Fulcrum, Easton builds great wheels and even some of the Mavic wheels are really pretty good. 

Someone mentioned that we have only seen 3 documented cases of R-SYS failures. Their were 3 failures here in Chattanooga, you just didn't hear about them on the internet. I have had 2 customers of mine tell me they had spoke failures and I had a shop owner in Arizona tell me they had one failure. So there were a lot more then 3 failures, you just only heard about 3 failures online. 

To the guy that mentioned Revolution Wheelworks, They are good guys building good wheels. Call and talk with Andy and he can give you any details you need to know but if I needed wheels I wouldn't have any problem with getting a pair from them.

I think I covered most everything but then again I didn't read every post. Basically most of the stuff being called spam on here is not according to RBR, even if it is annoying.


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## cfoster (Dec 20, 2007)

Ligero said:


> A few months back I sent a email asking about being a title sponsor of the wheel and tire forum. I was told that I could not be at this time because there already was one and that I would have to wait until that person stopped paying and then I could take over. It is currently ROL and BWW, so until either of those give up their sponsorship of this forum I cannot do it.


Slight correction. BWW does not sponsor the Wheels and Tires forum. Rol and Neuvation are this forum's sponsors. We do advertise and sponsor elsewhere on RBR though.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

*Mr Salsa - a suggestion for you.*

Mr Salsa, as the same questions keep popping up from forum Newbs and the same answers are trotted out by the same dedicated forum regulars, who obviously don't mind sharing their time, expertise and opinions to help others, and seeing as the site manager (gregg - 3 g's) hasn't intervened on your behalf, it appears that the problem is yours, along with those who agree with you. As you are not the appointed Forum Policeman and Censor, I respectfully suggest that you use a great forum tool, one specially designed for people who don't like running into certain other members - that being the Ignore List. Just go into My Account (actually your account) and add your un-favorite people to your own personal Ignore list.

Problem solved. You don't see posts that annoy you, Newbs get a variety of help (if they don't it's the fault of the non-helpers) and others get to do what they do best - helping others on this wonderful resource.


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

Or just do what I am going to do, (if I get bored enough), which is extol the virtues of factory wheels, and dispel the token and cliche trash talk.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

*I sense a new Bud Light commercial*

"Here's to you, Mr. self appointed internet forum policeman"


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks alot! I appreciate the support.


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## towerscum (Mar 3, 2006)

*yep*



Salsa_Lover said:


> my hand made tubies are the best of the best for Cross, no question about it.
> 
> But there is a world of difference compared to the 7850-C24-TU.
> 
> ...


 There's not a lot that isn't less than the cost of a single Edge rim.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Does Edge make good rims?


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

Ligero said:


> As far as pre-built wheels go, I think their a lot of good ones and a lot of bad ones. If I am asked a question about the ones that I think are bad should I not give a truthful answer just because just because their are a few guys on here that look at every post by a custom wheel builder as spam? For those interested, I think Campy builds fantastic wheels, so does Fulcrum, Easton builds great wheels and even some of the Mavic wheels are really pretty good.


Troy (and others), I have read this thread with great interest. I like that you give credit where it is due as far as "factory" wheels are concerned. Let me be one to say that I am actually very interested in honest reviews of wheels, including by wheel builders. 

To me, this is driven by the fact that wheels actually have moving parts. Take a frame, for example. Reviews can be objective only about few things (weight, stiffness if measured by machine, dimensions) compared to wheels. You can talk about the impact of spoking patterns, flange height, maintenance hassle, tension, etc. etc. 

The pros of cons of groupsets have been discussed in depth, and I personally really enjoy the discussions and arguments of merits and demerits of the way Campag does their rear derailleur, versus Shimano, versus SRAM. And I think the reason the discussion are very meaningful is because they are actuated, have moving parts, and thus it brings more depth to analyses. 

So I encourage you to be honest, and perhaps even fearless, in sharing what you think are the pros and cons of wheels, including "factory" ones. I think that quite a few readers benefit from the discussion. 

Speaking of opinions, what do make of them Fulcrum Racing Zeros? I'm really thinking of getting one, not the least because I'm a Campag guy ;-).


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

MCF said:


> Does Edge make good rims?


Only if they're on a Trek.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

orange_julius said:


> Troy (and others), I have read this thread with great interest. I like that you give credit where it is due as far as "factory" wheels are concerned. Let me be one to say that I am actually very interested in honest reviews of wheels, including by wheel builders.
> 
> To me, this is driven by the fact that wheels actually have moving parts. Take a frame, for example. Reviews can be objective only about few things (weight, stiffness if measured by machine, dimensions) compared to wheels. You can talk about the impact of spoking patterns, flange height, maintenance hassle, tension, etc. etc.
> 
> ...



I run Dura Ace with Fulcrum Zero, and I like them.

Pro-

Hub seems to roll forever.
Aesthetically looks good.
Seems to be durable. After 3,000 miles, they are still true and round.
One of the easiest rims to take the tires off.

Con-

I hope I never break a spoke or two. I understand that a single spoke can cost as much as $40.
Anodized Al spokes/rims scratche easy
Not very light. Advertised at 1460grams, but mine weighs around 1560 grams.
Fat spoke creates more cross wind issue than expected.
Doesn't feel too aero even at 25mph+.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

been200mph said:


> Only if they're on a Trek.


With Mavic hubs!


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

cpark said:


> I run Dura Ace with Fulcrum Zero, and I like them.
> 
> Pro-
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comments. I am attracted by this wheelset because it looks fairly aero, and the hubs are supposed to be really awesome. Plus, I am intrigued by the idea of tubeless. 

But given the weight, and given that you don't think that it's that aero, I'll have to re-think this. Do you run them tubeless?


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## Tim Red Beard (May 1, 2010)

*You seem to have an opinion about all sorts of wheels....*



Salsa_Lover said:


> We only know about 3 real R-SYS failures documented on teh InterWebzs, one of them was recognised by the team mechanic as a failure due to a crash.
> 
> However people here try to demonize the R-Sys and with it the whole line of Mavic products, just to promote theirs.
> 
> ...


Tell me what you think about this wheel set...285lb rider mind you.

DT Swiss TK7.1/540 (Black) 36 Hole
Dura Ace 7900 Hubs 
Sapim Race Spokes (Silver)
Brass Nipples
3X Lacing Pattern

I had 18 spoke Bontrager Race X Lite's prior to the above build that my LBS put on the bike when I bought it, knowing how much I weighed.

So what's your opinion about getting a build like that for a rider my size I'm just curious!


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

That wheelset should be strong enough for your weight

I would only question the Dura Ace 7900 cost for such a build. 

7800 or 7900 hubs are 100grs less than Ultegra but cost twice as much

If you are building a wheelset to be light then you go low count spokes, DT Revolution or Sapin CX-Rays and light rims then I think it is worth to invest on the Dura Ace or other lightweight hubs.

But if the goal is to build an strong wheelset then the choice would be 36 holes a wider ( and hence heavier rim ) and strong spokes. Then the 100grs you save on the hubs wouldn't be that significative and then you could just save money and go with Ultegra hubs.

Your own weight can be lost ( I lost 45lbs thanks to cycling ) , the weight of your wheels not.

However when you eventually lose the weight and reach 180lbs or less then you can get a lightset of wheels and keep yours for your commuter bike.

That is exactly what I have on my commuter bike BTW

Mavic A319 rims
Shimano 105 hubs
DT Swiss Champion 2mm spokes
32hx3 front and rear

my road bike is on a set of Dura Ace 7850-C24-TU low profile carbon tubulars 

I am 5'11" and 176 lbs now ( and I consider me overweight, I should be 167lbs or so )


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