# Beet Root



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

I broke down today and bought some beet root powder from Whole Foods. I plan to use it 2-3 hours prior to training. 

Anyone know if it is best to use this everyday regardless of training/riding or should it be used just prior to training events only?


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

woodys737 said:


> I broke down today and bought some beet root powder from Whole Foods. I plan to use it 2-3 hours prior to training.
> 
> Anyone know if it is best to use this everyday regardless of training/riding or should it be used just prior to training events only?


I'd start off slowly with beet juice, maybe once or twice a week, like is mentioned here just to make sure you don't see any of the side-effects beside purple piss. 

And as that article and Allen Lim mention, be sure to mix it up with other food and juices. Lim says in his book that his athletes were drinking beet juice daily.

2-3 hours before riding is probably the right time frame.


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## MTBer4life (Dec 9, 2008)

hmm hadnt heard of the beet juice thing before, but a google search reveals some interesting results. not to hijack, but have you considered beta-alanine supplements? seems they are mentioned in the same breath with beet juice, but I cant decipher if they offer better performance benefits than beet juice.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

Beet juice was getting a lot of hype this summer at the Olympics, where athletes of all types were drinking it.

Here's Allen Lim, making beet juice for Boonen and Leipheimer:


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

It is late...so quick post. Use google scholar to look up the studies.

beetroot jones - Google Scholar

beetroot jones cost - Google Scholar

At a recent meeting, they were presenting data that it might not work for elite athletes. (but that is none of us).

It seems to work in most of the studies thus far. Beet It | Concentrated Beet JuiceBeet It | Concentrated Beet Juice makes 'shots' and has a research page too. 

and for the thread jacker. Beta-alanine seems to work in many but not all individuals (thus far in the literature) stout has done many of those studies IIRC.

Beta-alanine is a H+ buffer after conversion to carnosine.

The nitrate in beet juice converts to NO and then causes vasodialation and may impact UCPs or other mitochondrial membrane properties. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yo0cSeruTI

https://www.youtube.com/user/NNInstitute


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## scottz123 (Nov 15, 2012)

*The study I read*

The study I read says results after drinking 450ml off beetroot juice - that's over 15oz - that's a l lot of juice!

ScienceDirect.com - Appetite - Modulation of cerebral blood flow parameters in humans following consumption of nitrate-rich beetroot juice


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

sdeeer said:


> It is late...so quick post. Use google scholar to look up the studies.snip...


Thanks sdeeer! After reading through a half dozen abstracts or so it appears to help but, the results will definitely be hard to separate from the noise of all the other factors that could make one perform better or worse. Day to day and/or long term. Besides a fish oil supplement I just try and eat 100% whole, natural, unprocessed and hormone free foods so this is pushing it for me.  I just don't think for the average joe like me the cost is worth the performance gain but I will give it a try for a little while as I see no negative side affects.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

how do you standardize the beet root powder to the appropriate nitrate equivalent of 500ml juice?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> how do you standardize the beet root powder to the appropriate nitrate equivalent of 500ml juice?


Still researching. What I've found is 1 tsp (3g) is equivalent to 1 beet. Need to convert but, 500ml is a lot of beets. This may prove far too expensive for any performance benefit.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

I don't know the cost of beet powder but the alternative is not inexpensive either. You can get an Omega masticating juicer like the one Allen Lim uses in the video for around $250 and the daily portion of three beets at my mass-market grocery store are in the $1.50 to $2.00 neighborhood. Costs could be driven down if you could find a source of beets in bulk.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

I've been doing it daily for a year now & here are some of my observations. Its time consuming. Expect to spend 35 minutes approx. at least. If you follow the recipe, it makes a lot of juice to consume in one sitting. I use a beer mug & it makes a full pint and a half of juice. I've experienced no side effects aside from the colored pee. 

I don't know if it makes me faster or not. I don't have access to a power meter but I've had my best season in terms of riding this year. I think you have to look at the big picture in the scope of things. Its true that you are what you eat. With juicing, you get health benefits of nutrient dense foods without the bulk. 

If you sat down & ate all those vegetables, it would take a long time to digest them. Juicing negates that. Is it costly? Truth be told, though many people thought that I ate very healthy. I wasn't. I wasn't getting enough fruits & vegetables. If you opened my fridge 3yrs ago, you would find a big jug of store bought juice sitting in there. That was my staple back then. So I'm just merely consuming what I should have consumed anyway is the way I look at it. 

If you plan on using beet root powder, you're looking for a performance advantage but you would be missing out on the nutritional benefit that the real thing would offer. A good proper diet is the most important thing & although everyone likes to think that they eat healthy until you really examine your diet, I'm pretty sure there's always room for improvement.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

gamara-Always room for improvement. Performance and more importantly as you stated general health wise. My diet is full of veg/fruit and as a family we try and minimize chemicals in general, preservatives, some dyes and added hormones. I even filter the city water. Easy to do but, not many think of it I bet. 

Off the top of your head what is the difference between juice and powder/extract?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I tried it, and had a very unpleasant experience. I'm just glad I was experiementing on the off-season instead of trying it before a race. That would have been a bad thing.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

*Thanks*



Alaska Mike said:


> I tried it, and had a very unpleasant experience. I'm just glad I was experiementing on the off-season instead of trying it before a race. That would have been a bad thing.


I missed your thread. When I searched I typed in "Beet Root" rather than "Beetroot" and nothing popped up.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

I don't think that beet juice is just a fad. All the pro teams have incorporated it into their meal routines. Here's the link for team Sky's recipe:






I think the main difference between the powder vs juicing boils down to your needs & what you want to get out of it. With the powder, I guess its easy, inexpensive & fast. Just add to water or OJ. 

As I said before I started this not with the intention of a gaining a performance advantage but just better overall health. Which it has but also I've had my best season as well. I haven't had a season go this well in a long time. My last race was a crit back in September & I ended up finishing top 20 with an avg speed of 28mph with the same time as the winner. The last lap we were doing 34mph & I was suffering like crazy despite the fact that I didn't even train for this. I thought my season was over but I got talked into doing it by a buddy who didn't want to go there alone. 

Its no secret that for a cyclist to succeed requires proper training & diet. My training hasn't changed. Eating has never been a problem for me. I eat essentially whatever I want because my body just burns it off. Since juicing over a year ago, I'm consuming daily 4 large carrots, 3 med sized beets, an apple & for additional flavoring either pomegranate/pinapple/ginger/orange/pear. 

If I didn't juice that, do you realized how difficult it would be to consume that much fruit & vegetables on top of all the other stuff that I eat on a daily basis? As Lim explains it, you gain the benefits of these nutrient dense foods by eliminating the bulk that requires you to expend extra energy to digest it. Thats the reason that I wasn't consuming enough fruits & vegetables in the past. You eat a big meal be it breakfast or dinner. If after consuming a large pasta dinner, where do you have room for all that fruit & vegetables unless it was in juice form?

The other benefit is that I'm replacing all the fluid & electrolytes that I lost. Some other observations on juicing: Its improved my digestion. Drinking the juice doesn't make you feel bloated like after eating a large meal. Its quickly absorbed by your body. I've noticed that after hard training rides that I'm not as sore afterwards as I used to be. I don't use my compression leggings anymore. Although I love cooked beets, raw beet juice is something entirely different. People use the term dirt quite often when describing its taste. Depending on the type of juicer that you use will also effect its drinkability. The ones with the blade will result in juice that is frothier which some people find unpleasant. Also because it results in a more oxygenated juice, it has to be consumed right away and cannot be stored. To make it more drinkable I add something like ginger or pears etc. Really its not as bad as some people make it out to be. I guess I'll continue with this routine until going fast is no longer something I want to do. At which point I might consider making donut smoothies with bacon & maple syrup for flavoring. MMmmmmm!


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

Threads like these always remind me of Chris Horner before Philly, knocking back a McDonald's quarter-pounder, fries, and a coke. I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless. If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.

I remember a science of nutrition class I took many years ago, and the professor explained to us that the main benefit we receive when consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is that we are leaving less room to consume foods which would otherwise be bad for us. Basically, fruits and vegetables are good at taking up space. This made a lot of sense to me. The nutrients that we receive are really the fringe benefits rather than the catalyst.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Threads like these always remind me of Chris Horner before Philly, knocking back a McDonald's quarter-pounder, fries, and a coke. * I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless*. If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.
> 
> I remember a science of nutrition class I took many years ago, and the professor explained to us that the main benefit we receive when consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is that we are leaving less room to consume foods which would otherwise be bad for us. Basically, fruits and vegetables are good at taking up space. This made a lot of sense to me. The nutrients that we receive are really the fringe benefits rather than the catalyst.


You can 'think' what you want, but when you look to the empirical data from the multiple clinical trials where the primary intervention was the appropriate dose of beet root juice standardized for nitrate (the non-fringe benefit and actually active ingredient), you will see that this is an showing to be an ergogenic aid for the 'amateur racers' and in other clinical trials, may be less effective for the elites......

But.....As you did state....Getting your general nutrition (macros/micros/timing) and training on point will also do a lot of good for your performance!


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

sdeeer said:


> You can 'think' what you want, but when you look to the empirical data from the multiple clinical trials where the primary intervention was the appropriate dose of beet root juice standardized for nitrate (the non-fringe benefit and actually active ingredient), you will see that this is an showing to be an ergogenic aid for the 'amateur racers' and in other clinical trials, may be less effective for the elites......
> 
> But.....As you did state....Getting your general nutrition (macros/micros/timing) and training on point will also do a lot of good for your performance!


I'll go ahead and contend based on no evidence whatsoever that drinking beet juice regularly won't provide for a competitive advantage where a racer actually gains top placings in an event because of such intake for a single racer reading this thread. So, thanks for letting me think what I want.


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## MTBer4life (Dec 9, 2008)

The Human G-Nome said:


> I'll go ahead and contend based on no evidence whatsoever that drinking beet juice regularly won't provide for a competitive advantage where a racer actually gains top placings in an event because of such intake for a single racer reading this thread. So, thanks for letting me think what I want.


so youll just ignore all the actual research and continue ahead with your hand over your ears and eyes closed saying "i cant hear you, i cant hear you"...that seems intelligent


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

MTBer4life said:


> so youll just ignore all the actual research and continue ahead with your hand over your ears and eyes closed saying "i cant hear you, i cant hear you"...that seems intelligent


Are you trying to persuade me that I should simply take as fact any health research that's been posted on the internet? Are you further trying to persuade me that since you have been drinking beet juice, that it has been responsible for your meteoric rise in performance? What are you saying exactly? 

p.s. Keep trying to make quips about my intelligence because that does a lot for your argument.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Threads like these always remind me of Chris Horner before Philly, knocking back a McDonald's quarter-pounder, fries, and a coke. I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless. If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.
> 
> I remember a science of nutrition class I took many years ago, and the professor explained to us that the main benefit we receive when consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is that we are leaving less room to consume foods which would otherwise be bad for us. Basically, fruits and vegetables are good at taking up space. This made a lot of sense to me. The nutrients that we receive are really the fringe benefits rather than the catalyst.


So I guess if we don't eat bad food (processed food, lardy food, red meat, etc), then there is no need to eat fruit and veggies right? Then what exactly can we eat that is not fruits nor veggies and still not bad for us? As I look around the supermarket isles, I see almost nothing.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> So I guess if we don't eat bad food (processed food, lardy food, red meat, etc), then there is no need to eat fruit and veggies right? Then what exactly can we eat that is not fruits nor veggies and still not bad for us? As I look around the supermarket isles, I see almost nothing.


There sure isn't a shortage of logical fallacies on this site. If you can't argue what I wrote, just argue about what you wish I wrote, and make it sound as ridiculous as possible while you're add it. 

see: Straw Man
A straw man argument attempts to counter a position by attacking a different position – usually one that is easier to counter. The arguer invents a caricature of his opponent’s position – a “straw man” – that is easily refuted, but not the position that his opponent actually holds.


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## scottz123 (Nov 15, 2012)

In my little mind, there is evidence that beet root juice helps, but have a hard time with expense and hassle. That is not even getting into potential side effects


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Threads like these always remind me of Chris Horner before Philly, knocking back a McDonald's quarter-pounder, fries, and a coke. *I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless. If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.*
> 
> I remember a science of nutrition class I took many years ago, and the professor explained to us that the main benefit we receive when consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is that we are leaving less room to consume foods which would otherwise be bad for us. Basically, fruits and vegetables are good at taking up space. This made a lot of sense to me. The nutrients that we receive are really the fringe benefits rather than the catalyst.



Can you clarify or expand a little here?

edit...clarify meaning just the bolded text.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Are you trying to persuade me that I should simply take as fact any health research that's been posted on the internet? Are you further trying to persuade me that since you have been drinking beet juice, that it has been responsible for your meteoric rise in performance? What are you saying exactly?
> 
> p.s. Keep trying to make quips about my intelligence because that does a lot for your argument.


I will assume that he was referring to the research that has been peer-reviewed and published in multiple differing journals and has stood up to the critique of other researchers while still illustrating that the dose of nitrate in an appropriate dose of beet root juice has been shown to be ergogenic in many of these trials. The fact that this research has been posted on the internet on this forum/thread is not relevant to the validity of the experiments which have been originally published elsewhere. One individual's experience is an n=1 experiment (so to speak) and when done correctly can give that individual meaningful results to interpret. But those testimonials are not a good reason for others to use/try a methodology per se and should not persuade and individual to use a supplement or method. An appropriate method is to search the scientific evidence on the supplement and assess the cost (monetary, potential benefit, negative side effects) with the potential benefit prior to consuming the supplement/method. 

An honest question to you. Do you understand scientific method? Are you just trolling, or are you being obtuse? 

If you do understand scientific method, you will understand that the data is what it is. I implore you to read the primary literature regarding the use of beet root juice/nitrate on endurance performance before you form an opinion and go 'spouting off' on the internet. Your beliefs may be true for you, but are not supported by the body of literature as I stated previously.

I would hope that you would know that one study _proves nothing_. But multiple well controlled double blinded trails with a valid mechanism of action start to solidify our understanding of an area/topic so that we may make recommendations about that topic. Even then it is not 'proven', just well supported and may not be applicable to all individuals in all cases. 

Creatine for example is a well researched ergogenic aid, but is not applicable or useful to all individuals even for the exercise modalities that it would be expected to 'work' for. But, the pottential benefit outweighs the cost for these individuals and a 'placebo' effect for the non-responders using this supplement in the real world can also benefit them.

Nitrate/beet root is not placebo....Unless you can will your body (when you are blinded to the treatment) to lower the oxygen cost of exercise. That would be a neat trick!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

The Human G-Nome said:


> There sure isn't a shortage of logical fallacies on this site. If you can't argue what I wrote, just argue about what you wish I wrote, and make it sound as ridiculous as possible while you're add it.
> 
> see: Straw Man
> A straw man argument attempts to counter a position by attacking a different position – usually one that is easier to counter. The arguer invents a caricature of his opponent’s position – a “straw man” – that is easily refuted, but not the position that his opponent actually holds.


you keep trying to sound logical, trying to sound scientific, but you have no real knowledge about nutrition to offer. You see someone saying beet is beneficial, you question it. And if someone says so-and-so food is beneficial, you would also question it also. And your foundation for this is "you see no evidence for such beneficial claim". Keep playing the logic game of yours, or offer us your knowledge of nutrition?

Go ahead, show us the plethora of healthy non-fruit non-veggie based food (according to your professor) in a typical supermarket. I doubt you'll find much, because of these isles are filled with prepacked cans and bottles. Sheesh how about stop your strawman stuff and show us your real knowledge in nutrition, professor?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Threads like these always remind me of Chris Horner before Philly, knocking back a McDonald's quarter-pounder, fries, and a coke. I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless. If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.
> 
> I remember a science of nutrition class I took many years ago, and the professor explained to us that the main benefit we receive when consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is that we are leaving less room to consume foods which would otherwise be bad for us. Basically, fruits and vegetables are good at taking up space. This made a lot of sense to me. The nutrients that we receive are really the fringe benefits rather than the catalyst.


Ironically, Chris now blames his formerly poor dietary habits as a major limitation of his performance. He is now a beet juice convert and credits his better dietary habits with his ability to perform highly as he gets older.

Also, what you're referring to as a logical fallacy is in fact an informal fallacy...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

woodys737 said:


> I broke down today and bought some beet root powder from Whole Foods. I plan to use it 2-3 hours prior to training.
> 
> Anyone know if it is best to use this everyday regardless of training/riding or should it be used just prior to training events only?


If it were me, I'd rather take things naturally, unprocessed. And take in a varieties of veggies and fruits.

Our body is a complex, and it's hard to pin point down to taking one "superfood" for that energy boost. I don't believe in any 1 superfood, but I do believe in a balanced (aka, varietal) diet high in veggies & fruits and other healthy carbs.

Western science seems to me obssessed with find a superfood. Does't exist. However many many of them together can make a "super healthy diet". East Asians have been doing this for centuries.. that's all the proof I need to see.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Does the beet sugar I used in a homebrew dark saison count?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> If it were me, I'd rather take things naturally, unprocessed. And take in a varieties of veggies and fruits.
> 
> Our body is a complex, and it's hard to pin point down to taking one "superfood" for that energy boost. I don't believe in any 1 superfood, but I do believe in a balanced (aka, varietal) diet high in veggies & fruits and other healthy carbs.
> 
> Western science seems to me obssessed with find a superfood. Does't exist. However many many of them together can make a "super healthy diet". East Asians have been doing this for centuries.. that's all the proof I need to see.


I ask because I'm an airline pilot. On the road a bit so juicing isn't an option that I'm willing to do. BR powder on the other hand is easy to manage.

Not looking for a superfood and agree whole foods are best. Just hard to enough beets in my diet given what I do.


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## scottz123 (Nov 15, 2012)

It's hard to eat - lets say 1000 calories of fruits and vegetables - it is physically a lot of food and time consuming to eat it all. Versus how easy it is to pound down a burger, fries and coke. (1000 calories).

If you look at paleo diet basically all they want you to east is lean proteins(free range fed beef, ocean caught fish) and fruits and vegetables. When I follow it - it is hard for me to get all my calories

Does that help?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

scottz123 said:


> snip...
> 
> Does that help?


No. I meant what I highlighted in bold. I think only The Human G-Nome can respond to that.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> Ironically, Chris now blames his formerly poor dietary habits as a major limitation of his performance. He is now a beet juice convert and credits his better dietary habits with his ability to perform highly as he gets older.
> 
> Also, what you're referring to as a logical fallacy is in fact an informal fallacy...


Chris has no way of isolating his beet juice intake as a determining factor for better performance. Likely, it is the combination of healthy habits parlayed with increased dedication and consistency that has lead to overall better results. 

Logical vs informal fallacies...


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> you keep trying to sound logical, trying to sound scientific, but you have no real knowledge about nutrition to offer. You see someone saying beet is beneficial, you question it. And if someone says so-and-so food is beneficial, you would also question it also. And your foundation for this is "you see no evidence for such beneficial claim". Keep playing the logic game of yours, or offer us your knowledge of nutrition?
> 
> Go ahead, show us the plethora of healthy non-fruit non-veggie based food (according to your professor) in a typical supermarket. I doubt you'll find much, because of these isles are filled with prepacked cans and bottles. Sheesh how about stop your strawman stuff and show us your real knowledge in nutrition, professor?


I'm not trying to sound like anything. If someone presents a health claim of any kind, it is in your best interest to question it. I cannot prove nor disprove that beet juice in such high quantities is beneficial to any degree. But for anyone thinking that it's some kind of performance cure all or wonder tonic, you're going to be mistaken. 

As for my "credentials", just like most of you, I have none other than a handful of classes I took. Also, please tell me where I recommend that someone not eat fruits and vegetables? That was never said. You simply extrapolated nonsense from what I wrote. What I did say is that the benefits you receive from consuming fruits and vegetables is first and foremost the fact that you are not eating foods other than fruits and vegetables while the nutrients you receive from these meals come in a distant second. If my textbook lies to me, my professor lied to me, and the other literature I read lied to me, at least be generous enough to offer your studies which prove that I was merely sold a bill of nonfactual goods. 

Yeah, call me "professor" and make me defend that as if I claimed to be a professor at the same time you whine about a strawman. You have about 3 in this post. Show me where I have employed even one.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

sdeeer said:


> I will assume that he was referring to the research that has been peer-reviewed and published in multiple differing journals and has stood up to the critique of other researchers while still illustrating that the dose of nitrate in an appropriate dose of beet root juice has been shown to be ergogenic in many of these trials. The fact that this research has been posted on the internet on this forum/thread is not relevant to the validity of the experiments which have been originally published elsewhere. One individual's experience is an n=1 experiment (so to speak) and when done correctly can give that individual meaningful results to interpret. But those testimonials are not a good reason for others to use/try a methodology per se and should not persuade and individual to use a supplement or method. An appropriate method is to search the scientific evidence on the supplement and assess the cost (monetary, potential benefit, negative side effects) with the potential benefit prior to consuming the supplement/method.
> 
> An honest question to you. Do you understand scientific method? Are you just trolling, or are you being obtuse?
> 
> ...


Someone on these boards posts some miracle performance booster every 6 months, and a huge group of amateur cyclists jump on it as if it's the magic tonic that's going to put them over the top in their next race. The findings from the studies themselves is not what I'm taking exception to. I'm taking exception to the fact that people vastly overvalue quick fixes like this in relation to their training and diet as a whole, and that a balanced, healthy diet in general parlayed with a sound training regimen will trump the hell out of the latest wonder revelation, whatever that may be. I'm sure you were paying attention when all the literature told us that consuming wine daily was healthy... and then it wasn't... and then it was.... and then it wasn't... and each time, the evidence was "overwhelming" and "conclusive". 

If you want to believe that it's beet juice that's giving you that secret edge and that sly smile at the start line, and that makes you happy, then no worries. However, far too many people that push the latest trend fail to acknowledge the other, more important caveats. Similarly, people believe that their aero wheels are gaining them valuable places in their local crit so they drop 2k on wheels. If you really broke down the benefits in terms of percentages, as a scientist yourself, what do you postulate that percentage to be? Taking it further, is someone who races bicycles but does not consume beet juice regularly simply being negligent and ignoring the obvious and overwhelming benefits in your estimation?


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> Can you clarify or expand a little here?
> 
> edit...clarify meaning just the bolded text.





> I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless. If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.


Sure. Consuming beet juice, in my humble estimation, is entirely meaningless minus context. Who will it benefit and by how much? Will it benefit a professional more than an amateur? What kind of amateur? A Cat 2 or a Cat 4? What other dietary factors must be in play before a consumer of this much beet juice will reap the apparent benefits? Must the rest of their diet be sound? Does the rest of their diet not matter? Will this benefit them more during aerobic efforts or anaerobic efforts, and does making such a distinction even matter? If you were to qualify the apparent benefits, and contrast those benefits with, let's say, aero wheels, which would provide the greater benefit in terms of endurance? Average miles per hour? Top speed? Is the benefit one might get from beet juice worth a place or two at your local crit? Or, do the benefits appear more in relation to training and increased training volumes? 

Yeah, lots of questions. A few isolated studies aren't going to sell me on beet juice, but it wouldn't prevent me from incorporating beet juice into my diet as part of an overall healthy approach assuming it was also cost effective. 

As for my quote specifically, I simply meant that if you are consuming beets or beet juice (or any fruits or vegetables for that matter), then it may mean you are consuming those fruits and vegetables in lieu of something much less nutritious. So, just by default, beets are going to be a healthy alternative to a non fruit, vegetable, or lean meat. 

People seem really up and arms that I would dare even question how awesome beets are. Isn't that a prereq for any type of scientific discussion. Believe me when I say, as it must be obvious, that I am no scientist. I'm an analyst in an organ transplant clinic that works with databases all day. So before someone chimes in with "you think you're a super smarty pants professor, genius you idiot", save it (not saying you said that specifically of course).


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Threads like these always remind me of Chris Horner before Philly, knocking back a McDonald's quarter-pounder, fries, and a coke. I think that for amateur racers, most of this is pretty meaningless.  If it's really just all about your diet, and you're not otherwise eating healthy enough? Sure, it makes some sense.
> 
> I remember a science of nutrition class I took many years ago, and the professor explained to us that the main benefit we receive when consuming a diet rich in fruits and vegetables is that we are leaving less room to consume foods which would otherwise be bad for us. Basically, fruits and vegetables are good at taking up space. This made a lot of sense to me. The nutrients that we receive are really the fringe benefits rather than the catalyst.





The Human G-Nome said:


> I'll go ahead and contend based on no evidence whatsoever that drinking beet juice regularly won't provide for a competitive advantage where a racer actually gains top placings in an event because of such intake for a single racer reading this thread. So, thanks for letting me think what I want.





The Human G-Nome said:


> Are you trying to persuade me that I should simply take as fact any health research that's been posted on the internet? Are you further trying to persuade me that since you have been drinking beet juice, that it has been responsible for your meteoric rise in performance? What are you saying exactly?
> 
> p.s. Keep trying to make quips about my intelligence because that does a lot for your argument.





The Human G-Nome said:


> Someone on these boards posts some miracle performance booster every 6 months, and a huge group of amateur cyclists jump on it as if it's the magic tonic that's going to put them over the top in their next race.  The findings from the studies themselves is not what I'm taking exception to. I'm taking exception to the fact that people vastly overvalue quick fixes like this in relation to their training and diet as a whole, and that a balanced, healthy diet in general parlayed with a sound training regimen will trump the hell out of the latest wonder revelation, whatever that may be.  I'm sure you were paying attention when all the literature told us that consuming wine daily was healthy... and then it wasn't... and then it was.... and then it wasn't... and each time, the evidence was "overwhelming" and "conclusive".
> 
> If you want to believe that it's beet juice that's giving you that secret edge and that sly smile at the start line, and that makes you happy, then no worries.  However, far too many people that push the latest trend fail to acknowledge the other, more important caveats. Similarly, people believe that their aero wheels are gaining them valuable places in their local crit so they drop 2k on wheels. If you really broke down the benefits in terms of percentages, as a scientist yourself, what do you postulate that percentage to be? Taking it further, is someone who races bicycles but does not consume beet juice regularly simply being negligent and ignoring the obvious and overwhelming benefits in your estimation?





The Human G-Nome said:


> *I'm not trying to sound like anything.* If someone presents a health claim of any kind, it is in your best interest to question it. I cannot prove nor disprove that beet juice in such high quantities is beneficial to any degree. But for anyone thinking that it's some kind of performance cure all or wonder tonic, you're going to be mistaken.
> 
> As for my "credentials", just like most of you, I have none other than a handful of classes I took. Also, please tell me where I recommend that someone not eat fruits and vegetables? That was never said. You simply extrapolated nonsense from what I wrote. What I did say is that the benefits your receive from consuming fruits and vegetables is first and foremost the fact that you are not eating foods other than fruits and vegetables while the nutrients you receive from these meals come in a distant second. If my textbook lies to me, my professor lied to me, and the other literature I read lied to me, at least be generous enough to offer your studies which prove that I was merely sold a bill of nonfactual goods.
> 
> Yeah, call me "professor" and make me defend that as if I claimed to be a professor at the same time you whine about a strawman. You have about 3 in this post. Show me where I have employed even one.


Nice. Where did anyone on this thread, besides you, claim that beet root would enhance performance in the way you have written?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

People have reacted to you because you are spouting off without even the faintest understanding or familiarity with the peer-reviewed literature on this issue. Speaking as a scientist, that is the first step to any reasonable discussion or critical analysis. Do some homework and read the literature (Andy Jones, Exeter, etc)


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> Nice. Where did anyone on this thread, besides you, claim that beet root would enhance performance in the way you have written?


All that quoting and underlining just for this quip? It sounds like people are willing to go pretty far out of their way for what we're now claiming is "no great benefit"? Is that correct? Someone just wrote that Chris Horner credits his recent success to consuming beet juice. Did I not read that correctly? So which is it? Is beet juice a big performance enhancer, or is it not? 

Here is us right now:


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> People have reacted to you because you are spouting off without even the faintest understanding or familiarity with the peer-reviewed literature on this issue. Speaking as a scientist, that is the first step to any reasonable discussion or critical analysis. Do some homework and read the literature (Andy Jones, Exeter, etc)


You keep coming off with the "I'm a scientist" and "you're just spouting off" thing. You want to tell me what kind of logical fallacy that is? I'm sure you know it. And yet still, none of the "true scientists" here are putting the benefits of drinking beet juice in real world terms. 

This is a really simple question:

Will drinking beet juice help me gain placings in a race, or alternately, help me to train more effectively? If either of the answers to those questions are true, then by how much? If you can't answer the questions because they are too esoteric in relation to the literature, then that's fine as well.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Sure. Consuming beet juice, in my humble estimation, is entirely meaningless minus context. Who will it benefit and by how much? Will it benefit a professional more than an amateur? What kind of amateur? A Cat 2 or a Cat 4? What other dietary factors must be in play before a consumer of this much beet juice will reap the apparent benefits? Must the rest of their diet be sound? Does the rest of their diet not matter? Will this benefit them more during aerobic efforts or anaerobic efforts, and does making such a distinction even matter? If you were to qualify the apparent benefits, and contrast those benefits with, let's say, aero wheels, which would provide the greater benefit in terms of endurance? Average miles per hour? Top speed? Is the benefit one might get from beet juice worth a place or two at your local crit? Or, do the benefits appear more in relation to training and increased training volumes?
> 
> Yeah, lots of questions. A few isolated studies aren't going to sell me on beet juice, but it wouldn't prevent me from incorporating beet juice into my diet as part of an overall healthy approach assuming it was also cost effective.
> 
> ...


Good lord. If a person already eats "well". Trains to the best of their ability (quality and quantity). Gets plenty of rest. In short does everything right that they can do to get the most performance out of their body AND then want to add beet root to their diet, why not?

Yes we all get that if a person who expects beets to take them from joe to pro is missing the boat. But, no one but you is saying that. No one expects huge gains. But to tell me that doing something healthy is a waste of time just isn't right. I fully believe my performance is due to a great many things that all work in concert. Some account for more performance than others that's true. But they all add up. Beets may be just 1% but 1% is better than zero wouldn't you say?


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> Good lord. If a person already eats "well". Trains to the best of their ability (quality and quantity). Gets plenty of rest. In short does everything right that they can do to get the most performance out of their body AND then want to add beet root to their diet, why not?
> 
> Yes we all get that if a person who expects beets to take them from joe to pro is missing the boat. But, no one but you is saying that. No one expects huge gains. But to tell me that doing something healthy is a waste of time just isn't right. I fully believe my performance is due to a great many things that all work in concert. Some account for more performance than others that's true. But they all add up. Beets may be just 1% but 1% is better than zero wouldn't you say?


I agree with most of what you wrote. I think that acknowledging that drinking boat loads of beet juice daily is perhaps expensive and time consuming, and that the gains you are likely to achieve because of this ritual are rather minuscule is pretty important though. It's like spending $600 on weight weenie carbon handlebars. At some point, it's difficult to explain why you invested the resources. 

If I really could gain 1% power by drinking beet juice, however, I would say that that's no small gain, and I'd be pretty compelled to spend the time and effort. 1% would be a pretty big number actually.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

^^^that's actually pretty damn funny. As I posted yesterday or so I don't think I'll be able to separate any performance gains from the noise. As I just posted to one of you other posts I think many small gains can add up to something noticeable.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

woodys737 said:


> ^^^that's actually pretty damn funny. As I posted yesterday or so I don't think I'll be able to separate any performance gains from the noise. As I just posted to one of you other posts I think many small gains can add up to something noticeable.


I agree wholeheartedly with this. Also, I think I could have written some of my questions, perhaps, in a less adversarial way. I tend to get nervous when I hear what sounds like an avalanche of awesomeness for whatever the latest craze may be, fitness, diet, or otherwise.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Before I beat on the beet bandwagon, let me confess that I juice with real beets once or twice a week. And the answers to my questions probably will not change the once or twice a week frequency. Here goes:



Are there any scientific studies out there to support beets/beet juice as a performance enhancer? Are there specific studies that support health benefits of beets? 

Or is it all anecdotal?


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> Before I beat on the beet bandwagon, let me confess that I juice with real beets once or twice a week. And the answers to my questions probably will not change the once or twice a week frequency. Here goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are real studies out there which, to Steve's dismay, I have not read. They apparently prove that drinking beet juice is "awesome". Hey, I am just quoting what the scientist wrote in his double-blind peer reviewed study. 

Really though, there is actual evidence and it's more than anecdotal. However, quantifying and qualifying that boost relative to the time, money, and effort needed to adopt the ritual is not quite so obvious. Steve? Will it become obvious to me once I read the literature?


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Someone on these boards posts some miracle performance booster every 6 months, and a huge group of amateur cyclists jump on it as if it's the magic tonic that's going to put them over the top in their next race. The findings from the studies themselves is not what I'm taking exception to. *I'm taking exception to the fact that people vastly overvalue quick fixes like this in relation to their training and diet as a whole, and that a balanced, healthy diet in general parlayed with a sound training regimen will trump the hell out of the latest wonder revelation, whatever that may be. * While true, this (beet root juice) has been shown to work in seds, athletes, elites, etc.I'm sure you were paying attention when all the literature told us that consuming wine daily was healthy... and then it wasn't... and then it was.... and then it wasn't... and each time, the evidence was "overwhelming" and "conclusive". The media told us that. The scientists presented their data and made conclusions based upon their data. The media/bloggers/forums are to blame for trumped up claims
> 
> If you want to believe that it's beet juice that's giving you that secret edge and that sly smile at the start line, and that makes you happy, then no worries. However, far too many people that push the latest trend fail to acknowledge the other, more important caveats. Similarly, people believe that their aero wheels are gaining them valuable places in their local crit so they drop 2k on wheels. If you really broke down the benefits in terms of percentages, as a scientist yourself, what do you postulate that percentage to be? Taking it further, is someone who races bicycles but does not consume beet juice regularly simply being negligent and ignoring the obvious and overwhelming benefits in your estimation?


If you would like to follow the literature, and protect amateur cyclists from bad information, then have at it...... Here are just a few of the articles that I found in with a quick google scholar search. I have fully read some, and others only the abstract (as beet juice is not me specific area)

Acute Blood Pressure Lowering, Vasoprotective, and Antiplatelet Properties of Dietary Nitrate via Bioconversion to Nitrite

MMS: Error

A toast to health and performance! Beetroot juice lowers blood pressure and the O2 cost of exercise

Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract

ScienceDirect.com - Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics - Whole Beetroot Consumption Acutely Improves Running Performance

Acute and chronic effects of dietary nitrate supplementation on blood pressure and the physiological responses to moderate-intensity and incremental exercise

The Nitrate

The Effects of Acute Dietary Nitrate Supplementation on Constant Work Rate Exercise in Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) Patients

The Effects of Acute Dietary Nitrate Supplementation on Constant Work Rate Exercise in Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) Patients

The Effects of Acute Dietary Nitrate Supplementation on Constant Work Rate Exercise in Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) Patients

And many more..

Read them. Gain information. Find the 'holes' that you claim exist. Then comment. Why have the majority of studies show a benefit of beet root juice with individuals consuming all sorts of differing diets. 

Read the data, then come out guns blazing to protect 'us'.

Steve, Kerry, and I have the BS buster role pretty well wrapped up here. :thumbsup:


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

So now you and your merry band of revelers are the white knights of the board, saving them all from BS'ers like me? How chivalrous and thoughtful of you. That's like saying "you're not just debating me... You're also debating all the cool kids". 

I notice you bother to answer zero of my completely legitimate questions. Instead, you just say "I'm a scientist", "you're a bull$itter", "read the literature" while ignoring every question I pose. What good is the science if you won't bother to provide any actual comment on that science beyond "it's really super, I swear"?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Most interesting so far...

_Lansley and colleagues (11) demonstrate that dietary NO3−, administered in the form of beetroot juice (500 ml/day for 6 days), decreases resting systolic blood pressure (SBP) and O2 consumption during walking and running. This study is part of a series of investigations, led by Prof. Jones, demonstrating the effects of beetroot juice on cardiovascular and metabolic responses to exercise (1, 2, 15). So what is novel? In this double-blind, placebo-controlled study, the authors selectively remove NO3− from beetroot juice to produce a NO3−-free juice as placebo. There was no placebo effect in any of the variables measured. Thus the decrease in O2 uptake and SBP in their investigations can be assigned to dietary NO3−, rather than other compounds present in beetroot juice (e.g., polyphenols and/or quercetin). Moreover, the responses occurred in the absence of changes in phosphocreatine (PCr) recovery kinetics (estimate of mitochondrial oxidative capacity). Lastly, the effects of dietary NO3− occurred within 2.5 h and promoted an increase in exercise tolerance (11). Whether dietary inorganic NO3− is given as beetroot juice (1, 2, 11) or pharmacologically (12), the responses are seemingly consistent across different exercise modalities, although the precise mechanisms remain unclear._

[...]

_The novel findings of Lansley et al. (11) have several clinical implications (13). A dietary therapy that lowers blood pressure and increases exercise tolerance may obviate the use of expensive drugs with potentially deleterious side effects. However, before beetroot juice can be safely used in the clinical setting, further research is necessary to address questions pertaining to the applied aspects of dietary NO3−, including 1) defining the dose dependence, 2) determining the impact on human health of prolonged supplementation, and 3) evaluating the effects of chronic dietary supplementation on adaptations elicited by exercise training. Answers to the following research questions for basic scientists are needed to clarify the mechanisms of action of inorganic NO3−. 1) Are the effects of dietary NO3− consistent among striated muscles or exclusive to skeletal muscles? If the myocardium responds in a similar fashion to skeletal muscle, beetroot juice will emerge as a powerful therapy for patients with angina. 2) Does the cGMP pathway mediate the effects of inorganic NO3− on O2 cost of force production? 3) What site(s) of action and posttranslational modification(s) of proteins confer the effects of dietary NO3− on muscle metabolism?_

A toast to health and performance! Beetroot juice lowers blood pressure and the O2 cost of exercise



2.5 hours prior to exercise...


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

The Human G-Nome said:


> So now you and your merry band of revelers are the white knights of the board, saving them all from BS'ers like me? How chivalrous and thoughtful of you. That's like saying "you're not just debating me... You're also debating all the cool kids".
> 
> I notice you bother to answer zero of my completely legitimate questions. Instead, you just say "I'm a scientist", "you're a bull$itter", "read the literature" while ignoring every question I pose. What good is the science if you won't bother to provide any actual comment on that science beyond "it's really super, I swear"?



I am done with this argument. I have real work to do. Please read the literature. Hell the video has some of the answers to questions you asked (Andrew Jones talking about the application) if you don't want to become fully informed by reading.

It is easier to shut down your belief/statements with data (for others to benefit) thus removing your creditability than to go point for point.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

From the most compelling title above, "ScienceDirect.com - Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics - Whole Beetroot Consumption Acutely Improves Running Performance"

"Eleven recreationally fit men and women were studied in a double-blind placebo controlled crossover trial performed in 2010."

and...

"During the last 1.1 miles (1.8 km) of the 5-km run, running velocity was 5% faster (12.7±3.0 vs 12.1±2.8 km/hour; P=0.02) in the beetroot trial, with no differences in velocity (P≥0.25) in the earlier portions of the 5-km run. No differences in exercise heart rate were observed between trials; however, at 1.8 km into the 5-km run, rating of perceived exertion was lower with beetroot (13.0±2.1 vs 13.7±1.9; P=0.04). "

So of the "eleven recreationally fit men and women" tested, they got a 5% increase in speed over the last 1.1 miles of their 5k. Heart rates were the same, but perceived exertion was less in the beet group. 

But you can't understand why I could even question whether this science is debatable? And with your constant arguments from authority, it's hard to understand why such an authority could run with this kind of evidence to the extent that you have. 

I will read the rest of these when I get home tonight, and thanks for the links. The literature itself is pretty interesting. Your conclusions, so far, have been less than overwhelming by contrast.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

sdeeer said:


> I am done with this argument. I have real work to do. Please read the literature. Hell the video has some of the answers to questions you asked (Andrew Jones talking about the application) if you don't want to become fully informed by reading.
> 
> It is easier to shut down your belief/statements with data (for others to benefit) thus removing your creditability than to go point for point.


The problem is that all of your arguments in this thread have been about your appeal to authority with little substance behind your reasoning. You were never interested in actually discussing the merits to begin with. But again, I will follow through and read the literature. Also, nice "I'm a busy, important man and don't have time for your nonsense" exit. You have "real work to do". I guess this is where I thank you for your time.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It looks like you can use it to beet down your blood pressure.


Blood pressure-lowering effects of beetroot juice and novel beetroot-enriched bread products in normotensive male subjects
_
In the present study, two separate randomly controlled, single-blind, cross-over, postprandial studies were performed in normotensive volunteers. 
...
These data strengthen the evidence for cardioprotective BP-lowering effects of dietary nitrate-rich vegetables._


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

The Human G-Nome said:


> The problem is that all of your arguments in this thread have been about your appeal to authority with little substance behind your reasoning. You were never interested in actually discussing the merits to begin with. But again, I will follow through and read the literature. Also, nice "I'm a busy, important man and don't have time for your nonsense" exit. You have "real work to do". I guess this is where I thank you for your time.


again, you are misusing these informal fallacies. No one appealed to authority - you were told to read the literature before making a number of uninformed comments. I don't believe anyone has made 'miracle' claims for beet juice. Read Jones as well - e.g., from his abstract of:

Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of low-intensity exercise and enhances tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans

plasma nitrite concentration was significantly greater following dietary nitrate supplementation compared with PL (BR: 273 +/- 44 vs. PL: 140 +/- 50 nM; P < 0.05), and systolic blood pressure was significantly reduced (BR: 124 +/- 2 vs. PL: 132 +/- 5 mmHg; P < 0.01). During moderate exercise, nitrate supplementation reduced muscle fractional O2 extraction (as estimated using near-infrared spectroscopy). The gain of the increase in pulmonary O2 uptake following the onset of moderate exercise was reduced by 19% in the BR condition (BR: 8.6 +/- 0.7 vs. PL: 10.8 +/- 1.6 ml.min(-1).W(-1); P < 0.05). During severe exercise, the O2 uptake slow component was reduced (BR: 0.57 +/- 0.20 vs. PL: 0.74 +/- 0.24 l/min; P < 0.05), and the time-to-exhaustion was extended (BR: 675 +/- 203 vs. PL: 583 +/- 145 s; P < 0.05). The reduced O2 cost of exercise following increased dietary nitrate intake has important implications for our understanding of the factors that regulate mitochondrial respiration and muscle contractile energetics in humans.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

stevesbike said:


> again, you are misusing these informal fallacies. No one appealed to authority - you were told to read the literature before making a number of uninformed comments. I don't believe anyone has made 'miracle' claims for beet juice. Read Jones as well - e.g., from his abstract of:
> 
> Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of low-intensity exercise and enhances tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans
> 
> plasma nitrite concentration was significantly greater following dietary nitrate supplementation compared with PL (BR: 273 +/- 44 vs. PL: 140 +/- 50 nM; P < 0.05), and systolic blood pressure was significantly reduced (BR: 124 +/- 2 vs. PL: 132 +/- 5 mmHg; P < 0.01). During moderate exercise, nitrate supplementation reduced muscle fractional O2 extraction (as estimated using near-infrared spectroscopy). The gain of the increase in pulmonary O2 uptake following the onset of moderate exercise was reduced by 19% in the BR condition (BR: 8.6 +/- 0.7 vs. PL: 10.8 +/- 1.6 ml.min(-1).W(-1); P < 0.05). During severe exercise, the O2 uptake slow component was reduced (BR: 0.57 +/- 0.20 vs. PL: 0.74 +/- 0.24 l/min; P < 0.05), and the time-to-exhaustion was extended (BR: 675 +/- 203 vs. PL: 583 +/- 145 s; P < 0.05). The reduced O2 cost of exercise following increased dietary nitrate intake has important implications for our understanding of the factors that regulate mitochondrial respiration and muscle contractile energetics in humans.


There was no point to this reply. I didn't ask you to copy/paste the findings from any of the studies. I asked very specific questions, they are all on public record within this thread, and neither of you have bothered addressing them even a little bit. You've just posted more numbers from the study, none of which I've asked for. If someone asked you to actually decipher what you've copy/pasted, and then relate them to the actual questions I posed, would you be able to do so? Or would you just keep go on proving your ignorance in regards to logical or informal fallacies? Don't pee on my leg and then tell me that it's raining. I get that you pride yourself on the geek-chic, but step off your pedestal for just half a second and answer the actual questions posed. They are all there in front of you, and I'm confident that you have adequate reading comprehension skills to interpret them.

Since you don't appear willing to answer the questions I posed in this thread in actual English, I'll post the more prevalent ones here:

- One of the studies was 11 test subjects long. It concluded that the test subjects, on average, realized a 5% average gain in speed during the last 1.1 miles of a 5k. They also registered lowered perceived exertion. In your estimation, as someone who has researched this quite a bit, would these numbers translate well to cycling? Would realizing a 5% gain in speed at the end of a criterium, for example, seem reasonable based on the research you've done?

- The athletes tested in the studies seem to be mostly comprised of enthusiasts and not professionals or higher end athletes. Is there any reason to expect that the gains a cyclist might receive could be influenced by their athletic prowess and fitness?

- Do you feel like the studies are conclusive enough at this point that it would actually be negligent for a competitive cyclist to not make the effort to start supplementing heavily with beets? Should it be standard for any aerobic athlete going forward?

- Is the impact of a supplement like this enough to push our wattage to a point where we are gaining placings in races?

- Has there been anything written about whether we should distinguish between aerobic and anerobic efforts in relation to how beets will help us improve? 

These aren't rhetorical questions. This would be a great way for you, a scientist and an expert, to convince me, a skeptic, non-scientist, non-expert, but someone who has seen a lot of fads go just as quickly as they've arrived, that I really should be paying more attention to this relatively new phenomenon.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

The Human G-Nome said:


> There was no point to this reply. I didn't ask you to copy/paste the findings from any of the studies. I asked very specific questions, they are all on public record within this thread, and neither of you have bothered addressing them even a little bit. You've just posted more numbers from the study, none of which I've asked for. If someone asked you to actually decipher what you've copy/pasted, and then relate them to the actual questions I posed, would you be able to do so? Or would you just keep go on proving your ignorance in regards to logical or informal fallacies? Don't pee on my leg and then tell me that it's raining. I get that you pride yourself on the geek-chic, but step off your pedestal for just half a second and answer the actual questions posed. They are all there in front of you, and I'm confident that you have adequate reading comprehension skills to interpret them.
> 
> Since you don't appear willing to answer the questions I posed in this thread in actual English, I'll post the more prevalent ones here:
> 
> ...


again, read the literature (that you were so quick to dismiss). No need to extrapolate from runners. There is data on trained (not elite) cyclists (which are representative of most people here). Short answer: a 6% increase in power during time trial performance (under lab conditions) which results in a 2.7-2.8% improvement in times. How that translates into gaining points in races is obviously complex and beyond the protocol of an experiment, but many cyclists are willing to spend lots of money on equipment that provides less gains.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

woodys737 said:


> Anyone know if it is best to use this everyday regardless of training/riding or should it be used just prior to training events only?


To my knowledge, no studies have been done analyzing long term use of it. Because of the expense and/or difficulty preparing it (to say nothing of the off-putting flavor) I have chosen to use it in off season testing and plan to use it in the 10 days leading up to a few main events. The risk of over using something is that your body gets accustomed to an external aid and natural systems can atrophy. I don't know if that is a risk with beetroot, but that is my present opinion. I'm curious what others have concluded.

There is a bit of debate in this discussion about whether it works. In my experience it does. Two affirming experiences I can think of offhand:

1) On a group ride during the first two hours I felt like I could breath through my nose while climbing. It was a bit freaky. After the effect wore off I resumed labored breathing for otherwise hard efforts. I was not particularly well rested going into the ride.

2) I tried it once for my indoor trainer vo2max intervals (5 minute sets). I use a CompuTrainer with the resistance watts and I calibrate it well. Usually I'm begging for mercy by 3:30. On the day I tried the beetroot in my second interval I looked up and the time was 5:30. It wasn't easy, but I've never said "that puke-hard interval sure went by quickly".

I'll be doing some more tests this winter. I don't feel like I have a handle on it entirely. I'm not doing double blind tests or anything but I think I have a pretty repeatable set up to find out if it works for me. Now I just need to make sure my competition remains skeptical about it.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

Thanks for the insight Duane. I would love it if you would do followup on your personal experiences with beet, especially in relation to your 10 day runups to an event. I realize this is all anecdotal, but it's interesting. Gaining 5% power at anytime during your ride when that power may be associated with a single supplement is rather dramatic. Of course, we all have great days sometimes when we're breathing through our nose during seemingly harder efforts, and they seem to come and go for no apparent reason sometimes. In the end, I am really just trying to establish whether the price and effort is really on par with the potential results.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

I'll try to remember to post back with more info as I conduct more tests. I used it on several other rides, but these two were the most pronounced examples but generally I felt like I was breathing easier for the same effort when using beetroot. I can't rule out coincidence because I've had great days and bad days without much success identifying the cause, but I only have a handful of great days a year and two them have been while testing with beetroot, so I'm inclined to think it works.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of low-intensity exercise and enhances tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans


After my experience with beetroot juice, I prefer to get my nitrates from their natural source







Seriously though, I wish my experiment had gone better, because it was so negative that I don't think I can ever attempt it again. The pre-packaged stuff isn't cheap ($8 a bottle from what I remember), so I was planning on juicing my own if it worked for me.

Oh well, my coach got a good laugh out of it.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

Here is a perfect example of why I am weary of "the literature", even when that literature may be read in peer-reviewed journals.



> PARIS: Cyclists who dope themselves with EPO may not gain any performance advantage even though they are putting their health at risk, scientists said on Thursday.
> In a review of the evidence, a team of European researchers scoffed at the entrenched notion that EPO gives cyclists an edge.
> And they pointed out that the drug has many perils for those who use it illicitly, including blood clots that can cause strokes and heart attacks.
> "Athletes and their medical staff may believe EPO enhances performance, but there is no evidence that anyone performed good experiments to check if EPO would actually improve performance in elite cyclists," said Adam Cohen, a professor at the Centre for Human Drug Research in the Netherlands.
> ...


http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...wed-journal-20121206-2awx3.html#ixzz2EIk3Mocc


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Here is a perfect example of why I am weary of "the literature", even when that literature may be read in peer-reviewed journals.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...wed-journal-20121206-2awx3.html#ixzz2EIk3Mocc


These are the same guys who slighted the Australian EPO researchers by saying that the Aussies don't know what they're doing. Nice example of extremism. Who says all peer review literature are sound? In fact, the professor at a Texas university (forget the name of the uni) who did a series of test on Amrstrong to prove to the world that Armstrong was clean and not doping, and printed his findings in a peer-review journal, was later found to be borderline misconduct,.. but alas, the university didn't quite go as far as disciplining him. But crap happens in peer review just like it exists anywhere else. It does not mean we should disregard everything we see (see theory of evolution).


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> These are the same guys who slighted the Australian EPO researchers by saying that the Aussies don't know what they're doing. Nice example of extremism. Who says all peer review literature are sound? *In fact, the professor at a Texas university (forget the name of the uni*) who did a series of test on Amrstrong to prove to the world that Armstrong was clean and not doping, and printed his findings in a peer-review journal, was later found to be borderline misconduct,.. but alas, the university didn't quite go as far as disciplining him. But crap happens in peer review just like it exists anywhere else. It does not mean we should disregard everything we see (see theory of evolution).



Do you mean Coyle EF

coyle EF armstrong - PubMed - NCBI

Edward F. Coyle, Ph.D

Do you have a link / something pointing to misconduct? edit .... found a link:

Scientific Error Reignites Debate About Armstrong’s Past - NYTimes.com

Let's not get this sent to the forum that shall remain nameless......


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> These are the same guys who slighted the Australian EPO researchers by saying that the Aussies don't know what they're doing. Nice example of extremism. Who says all peer review literature are sound? In fact, the professor at a Texas university (forget the name of the uni) who did a series of test on Amrstrong to prove to the world that Armstrong was clean and not doping, and printed his findings in a peer-review journal, was later found to be borderline misconduct,.. but alas, the university didn't quite go as far as disciplining him. But crap happens in peer review just like it exists anywhere else. It does not mean we should disregard everything we see (see theory of evolution).


Who said we should disregard everything we see? I just pointed this out because we receive contrary peer-reviewed studies all the time. I never even said that beet juice wouldn't "work", but merely that it was unlikely to be the key reason for anyone's success, and I questioned aloud, "is it worth the hassle?" 

In another forum (the one that shall remain nameless), folks were pointing out that you could hope to get a 5% increase in wattage via EPO. In this thread, simple beet juice was lent an "up to 6%" figure. So many statistics get thrown around that it become pretty difficult for a non-scientist (myself) to see the forest through the trees. 

I think, as will most people that read it, that the article sounds pretty absurd considering all of the evidence that we have gathered already about EPO.


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## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

What's all this talk about beer root? I mean, what's the big deal? We used to just call it root beer, plop in a scoop of vanilla ice cream, and settle back in a recliner drinking one of the world's best recovery drinks. :thumbsup:

Now where did I leave that carton of espresso Haagen-Dazs???


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

marathon marke said:


> What's all this talk about beer root? I mean, what's the big deal? We used to just call it root beer, plop in a scoop of vanilla ice cream, and settle back in a recliner drinking one of the world's best recovery drinks. :thumbsup:
> 
> Now where did I leave that carton of espresso Haagen-Dazs???


I like pie


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

sdeeer said:


> Do you mean Coyle EF
> 
> coyle EF armstrong - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> ...


That's the dude I'm talking about. Your link to the NY Times is just a summary.
There is a really lengthy article in the form of a blog on the net where one of the Australian scientists (again sorry I can't recal his name but I think he was the one tasked with developing the EPO test) was giving his side of the story regarding Coyle's study of Armstrong. It's a very detailed blog that basically amounts to accusing Coyle of borderline scientific misconduct (and not just an "error"). He said that Coyle had data missing when asked about them; said he can't think how a researcher like Coyle could have data missing. He pointed out various inconsistencies in the timeline relating to Coyle's claim of data loss and the publication of the Armstrong study.

If you're really intrested in reading that blog then PM me and I'll see if I had it bookmarked somewhere.


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## Ultegra134 (Nov 30, 2013)

Let me revive the thread a little bit.Has anyone used Beetroot supplements?I do not have a juicing machine so I could make myself juice everyday.


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