# Noob question: What makes a good climbing bike/climbing + descending tactics?



## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm jumping on the gas-prices-are-high-so-i'm-going-to-start-cycling bandwagon, but i also want to get good at cycling.

My friend lent me his Specialized Roubaix...i believe it's an Elite Triple. 
Is this a good climbing bike? I would think so because the triple gearing would help me on the hills.

So what makes a good climbing bike?

I live on a very hilly area with 11-15% grades (it's on the signs). So i'm sure there are portions that are slightly steeper too. I want to get started right away so I can get better, because as it is, there's no way that I'd be able to get out of my neighborhood and make it back too.
If I want to get to school, I have to climb up the 11% hill (0.73 mi according to walkjogrun.net) which is maybe a quarter of a mile. I've done it before on a cheap mongoose mountain bike with some effort, so I'm pretty sure that with practice, it'll become easier. After that is (1.35 mi) of 15% descent. There's another pretty long hill that gets somewhat steep toward the end, but it looks do-able. 
I'm worried about the way back. The 15% grade is extremely steep in some spots.

So where can I read up on climbing tactics?

Thanks for listening.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

A good climbing bike is a bike that is being ridden by a good climber. It is rare for a good climber to use a bike with a triple chainring. As you shift into easier gears you slow down and that third chainring gives the bike much easier gears.

Much easier gear=riding slower.

OTOH that third chainring sure makes climbing easier for someone who doesn't race.


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## Schrödinger's_Fridge (Jul 5, 2006)

mikejungle said:


> I'm jumping on the gas-prices-are-high-so-i'm-going-to-start-cycling bandwagon, but i also want to get good at cycling.
> 
> My friend lent me his Specialized Roubaix...i believe it's an Elite Triple.
> Is this a good climbing bike? I would think so because the triple gearing would help me on the hills.
> ...


The only way to get good in the hills is to ride heaps of hills.

It's not the bike, it's the bloke riding it. Climbing is all about rider fitness.


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

Descending a 15% grade depends a lot on the road. How smooth is the pavement? How clean is the pavement? How tight are the curves? Are there cross streets? Dogs? Deer? What's at the bottom?

In ideal conditions with a smooth, clean, straight road with no cross streets, no animals and nothing you need to stop for at the bottom, you could probably just let it run. In less than ideal conditions, you'll probably need to brake all the way down, maybe even stopping to let the rims cool occasionally. In this latter case, I would probably look for another way to go, even if it's longer.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

hm.
well. i know that rider fitness is obviously paramount; which is why i asked about climbing techniques so i could get better. And that's why I mentioned triple gearing; i think it'd help me acclimate to climbing better than a double geared bike. 

or am i wrong?

climbing techniques? or is it just straightforward, "pedal until you get to the top" kind of thing?


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

Climbing long, steep hills is usually a matter of alternating sitting and standing. Put it in the gear that allows you to sit and pedal. Pedal there until your legs are screaming. Then shift up one to three gears and stand for a while (perhaps 30 seconds). Then sit again and shift back down. Repeat until you get to the top. I would keep my hands on the hoods the whole time.

Let the bike rock a bit (not too much) while you are standing. If the hill is very steep, pedal the bike like you are climing stairs (while standing).

If you're just beginning to build stamina, you may need to stop and rest periodically as you climb to get your wind back.

Keep climbing that hill until it is easier.


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## immerle (Nov 6, 2007)

Just read somewhere, that while seated, you should scoot your butt back in the saddle a bit and force your heal down at the top of the pedal stroke. Tried it this week end and my glutes and calves were screaming. Before trying this technique, it was my quads that would spent on a climb. I think the idea is, alternating between the seated and standing changes the muscle groups being used. Fatigue one group and switch to the other.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

thanks. that's helpful.

does resting periodically help your thighs recover too? It'd be sort of lame if I got halfway up the hill but couldn't finish because my thighs were shot.

There are no cross streets until the bottom and the pavement is pretty rough and it's a very windy road. is it hazardous for the brakes if i don't stop on the way down? I would have thought that brake fading wouldn't be so bad because there's plenty of ventilation.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

immerle said:


> Just read somewhere, that while seated, you should scoot your butt back in the saddle a bit and force your heal down at the top of the pedal stroke. Tried it this week end and my glutes and calves were screaming. Before trying this technique, it was my quads that would spent on a climb. I think the idea is, alternating between the seated and standing changes the muscle groups being used. Fatigue one group and switch to the other.


nice.
that helps too.

is the source somewhere online where I could read about it?

thanks


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

The danger of overheating your brakes is not primarily brake fade, but overheating your tire to the point of failure. It's not common, but it does happen, usually with disastrous results.


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## csh8428 (Aug 2, 2007)

Pretty good info above on techniques...
I'll go ahead and comment on the bike.

The lighter and stiffer the better, but this also = much more money. Once you get past the $4,000 price point, it's all about bling. 
Lighter = easier climbing
Stiffer = more responsive

Just about any bike company puts out good bikes above $2,200, so I can't really comment on "what a good climbing bike is." You definately want to make sure the bike is comfortable and fits you well. A good local bike shop will be able to help you with that.
With your situation, IMO, you would be better offer putting more money into lighter wheels than a lighter bike. You might also want to think about getting a compact crank on whichever bike you choose. The ratios on a compact crank tend to be better for lots of climbing.
Generally for name brand bikes:
17.5 - 18lbs: $2,200 - $2,500
16 - 17.5:$2500 - $2,900
you get the idea

You can get other deals from bikedirect.com and some other customer order shops that have good prices for the same types of bikes.

I noticed talk about rim overheating... Does this happen with carbon rims? In auto racing carbon brakes don't even work well until they heat up. 

Craig


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## 99trek5200 (Jan 26, 2007)

mikejungle said:


> thanks. that's helpful.
> 
> does resting periodically help your thighs recover too? It'd be sort of lame if I got halfway up the hill but couldn't finish because my thighs were shot.
> 
> There are no cross streets until the bottom and the pavement is pretty rough and it's a very windy road. is it hazardous for the brakes if i don't stop on the way down? I would have thought that brake fading wouldn't be so bad because there's plenty of ventilation.


A 15% descent for 1.35 miles on a curvy, rough road is a death ride. There is a 15% grade near me that is a little more than 1/4 mile long. I have appoached 50 mph on the hill (I worry about squirrels, frogs, anything at that speed). While gas is expensive, it is cheaper than the medical bills. 

I am certain that I could not climb 1.35 miles at 15% (1,000'+ elevation gain) without severe pain if at all. If you could manage 6 mph, that would a 13-14 minute grind. Granted, with practice and fitness I it could be done, but ouch.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

Just a guess, but when John mentioned the rim heating up, i think it was because the heat would be perilous to the innertube or tire itself, not the wheel itself.

and I'll venture a gas that it's not as big a problem with carbon fiber rims because cloth isn't great at heat transfer, and although resin might increase its heat rentention/conduction properties, it's probably still better than metal.

hopefully i'm not too off. seems logical.

the 15% hill really looks insane. I remember the very first time I drove up it, i felt like I was driving to heaven. I would think that at some parts, it's between 25-40 degree incline? I think i'll have to have someone on stand by to pick me up when i attempt the climb.

Is the descent really that dangerous?
You guys are scaring me 

Thanks for the info about bikes. I can't really afford to buy a whole new bike, so i'll stick with the roubaix...but what's a crank? 

Where can I learn about bike parts?
I don't know the different parts of the handles, or the names of all the different parts. I thought there would be some sort of sticky in the beginner's forum, but couldn't find any.

thanks


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## sharkey00 (Aug 22, 2007)

Regarding brakes heating to failure...

Typically when my brakes heat to the point of getting sloppy I will alternate braking between front and rear. The idea being I give one wheel a few seconds to cool then the other ect. 

Anyone have any thoughts on that style of descent? I think it works as braking slop is reduced. But that is based solely on feel (or the placebo effect).


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## Mad_Hun (Jul 3, 2007)

mikejungle said:


> the 15% hill really looks insane. I remember the very first time I drove up it, i felt like I was driving to heaven. I would think that at some parts, it's between 25-40 degree incline? I think i'll have to have someone on stand by to pick me up when i attempt the climb.


Could you tell us where this road is? I'd love to have a look with GoogleEarth!

In any case, I doubt any section is even approaching 40%. That would probably make it the steepest road on the planet. There's an older thread floating around here about steep roads, and I think there's a 38% grade in New Zealand that holds the record.

Notwithstanding that, 15% is pretty steep. There's a 15% grade near my house that's about 1/10 - 1/5 of a mile long. I take it on regularly, but it's never easy. I can't imagine climbing that grade for over a mile.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

A stiff frame does nothing for getting you up a climb faster. It does make the bike feel fast though, especially when you are standing. 

Good climbers are smart enough to pick gearing that works for them on the climbs they'll be doing. Some like to have high gears; most prefer gears low enough so they can sit and spin, although they may not do that for every hill. Of course gears that let a fast climber sit and spin will be too high for someone who is not that good a climber.

You should pick the gearing and system that gives you low enough gears. If that's a triple, get it.

The grades on signs are often the steepest grade on that section of road, not the overall average grade. 1.3 miles of 15% would be very very steep, close to the steepest road that long in the US. It's likely that the average grade for that 1.3 miles is less, and the steepest part is 15%. That's still pretty steep!

On steep descents I use both brakes at the same time but only to slow for turns, or if it's really steep, to slow down a bit. There's an article in _Cycling Science_ that shows that trying to brake to maintain 20 mph puts the most heat into the rims. Going either faster or slower results in less heat.


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## csh8428 (Aug 2, 2007)

Crankset = crank arms(the things the padeals are connected to) + chainrings + bottom bracket(the thing that connects he 2 crankarms).

Just type in compact crankset in the search and you'll find TONS of stuff about them.


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## 99trek5200 (Jan 26, 2007)

mikejungle said:


> the 15% hill really looks insane. I remember the very first time I drove up it, i felt like I was driving to heaven. I would think that at some parts, it's between 25-40 degree incline? I think i'll have to have someone on stand by to pick me up when i attempt the climb.
> 
> Is the descent really that dangerous?
> You guys are scaring me
> ...


Check this out http://www.geographylists.com/list17y.html for a list of really steep roads in the US. I have walked the road in Hawaii and it was tough to walk.

To work on your descents, start out on less steep streets. You will be surprised how poorly bicycle brakes work compared to automobiles/motorcycles. I just started cycling last year and after 4,000 miles I still pucker up on 30 mph twisty descents.

To learn about the pieces and parts of bicycles as well as how to tune and roughly fit a bike, I would recommend this http://www.amazon.com/Zinn-Art-Road-Bike-Maintenance/dp/1884737706


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

thanks for all the comments.

I thought that the grade was an average, but I guess just the steepest on the sign would make more sense. Even so, the hill is consistently very steep. only for a short section in the middle does it level off slightly. 

concerning brakes.
I've seen rotors on mountain bikes...do any road bikes do that or are they purposely left off to reduced weight?


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## funknuggets (Feb 4, 2004)

I like the fact he used the word "tactics"... 

Unless you are planning to race, it sounds like you are just looking to survive. Thats fine. The more you survive these things, the easier they will become. I have provided some people and provided advice for doing what would otherwise be considered impossible rides like Triple Bypass and the most recent 3S3M for us flatlanders and they have had good results with the 'survival mode'.

My advice is to practice. No duh, right? But there is a technique to what could be considered "survival" climbing mode that works to task different muscles and different aerobic systems so that you can ... postpone the fail. I would find a gear within which you feel you can ride all day when climbing. Find the combination and remember it. Then when you get into the thick of it (on longer climbs this is more effective)... pedal seated in this gear for say... 40 revs, then stand in a harder gear for 20, or for 10... I dont care... just alternate between seated and standing in a gear that is not too hard or BLAM. You will roast.

Also, I find that many people in your... what I would consider inexperience... tend to focus on the downward portion of the pedal stroke... the mash. However, I find that by switching to a bit lighter gear and focusing on bringing the knee UP will engage the core, hip flexor and sartorious and significantly decrease the pressure put upon the opposite quad/calf. I also think this helps to reduce the propensity for some riders to load up on the front wheel. 

So, these are the two things I would do. Work on effective transition between seated and standing, and start focusing on pushing lighter gears and integrating the lifting of the knee and not just the mashing down. I feel these will help you become a better climber.


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## 99trek5200 (Jan 26, 2007)

There was a recent thread about disc brakes on road bikes. You might try a search. I did not read it.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

sharkey00 said:


> Regarding brakes heating to failure...
> 
> Typically when my brakes heat to the point of getting sloppy I will alternate braking between front and rear. The idea being I give one wheel a few seconds to cool then the other ect.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on that style of descent? I think it works as braking slop is reduced. But that is based solely on feel (or the placebo effect).


I don't think that technique is very wise. First, braking effectiveness isn't evenly distributed between front and rear. It only takes a gnat's fart to lockup the rear, so that severely limits the amount of braking it can do. The rear brake is most effective in modulating speed in corners or in braking in conjunction with the front. While the front, does provide the majority of braking effectiveness, it should be used in conjunction with the rear for best braking.

Where braking goes all pear shaped on descents is when a person is either dragging their brakes--thus not allowing the pads to cool off--or overusing either the front or the rear. Both situations can result in the brake pad turning to goo. Worse is the case where the heating causes a tube and/or tire, or glue failure. 

The best descending techniques have a rider only braking when braking is needed, i.e. just before corners (or mid-corner with a bit o' rear brake.). Get the braking done, and be done with it. Do *NOT* drag brakes down the mountain. If the descent is steep at all, using only one brake or the other to slow way down won't work. Shorter, harder braking efforts are much better thermodynamically for the brake pads than prolonged periods of braking with either both brakes or only one brake. 

I learned braking on two wheels from motorcycle racing, and the lesson applies very well to bicycles, especially given a bicycles comparitively tiny contact patches. Mid-corner braking with the front brake risks using up and going beyond the traction you have available, as well as using up what ever good mojo you had going on. Going down in a corner, on a descent, is always sub-optimal, if not skeletally disruptive.

As important as braking is looking ahead to where you want to go and not looking at the ground only a few feet in front of your front tire. Looking further ahead keeps you from target fixating.

As for climbing, you've had lots of good advice here, with the most important big being climb, climb, and climb if you want to get better at going up. No bike is going to make you a better climber, but the best bike for you in the hills will be the one that fits best.
Climbing is never really easy, and there will always come a time when it hurts. Don't, however, shy away from that pain: it's that pain that feeds the rat and makes you want to go back for seconds!:thumbsup:


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*



mikejungle said:


> the 15% hill really looks insane. I remember the very first time I drove up it, i felt like I was driving to heaven. I would think that at some parts, it's between 25-40 degree incline? I think i'll have to have someone on stand by to pick me up when i attempt the climb.
> 
> Is the descent really that dangerous?
> You guys are scaring me
> ...


What a bunch of whimps. A 15% grade is an 8.5 degree angle. Percent grade is the tangent (rise/run) of an angle times 100, but with roads the "run" can't be measured horizontally, so it's really the sine of the angle. 

I love to ride a 50 mph if I can find a road that's steep enough with a good tail wind, but it does have to be smooth and free of critters. I managed to hit 48 today on my regular mountain descent, since there was a good tailwind.

As for climbing a 15% grade, that's exactly what a triple crank is made for - riding an extreme grade with no more torque on the pedals than a much easier grade using a double. The biggest mistake I see people make when climbing is using too low a cadence. Keep the cranks turning at 70-85 rpm and you'll probably go faster than those who bog down to 50 rpm. Climbing is about power to weight, so anyone with excess body weight will be handicapped. A lot of guys get by racing flat crits when they are on the heavy side, but put them on a mountain and they slow to a crawl.

The other big mistake I see with inexperienced riders is using a a low cadence all the time. They never learn to spin at 90-100 rpm and ride slowly as a result.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

C-40 said:


> I love to ride a 50 mph if I can find a road that's steep enough with a good tail wind, but it does have to be smooth and free of critters.


That's a big "if" around here with all the javelinas about. They are particularly unsmart and seem to enjoy standing in the middle of the road. A year or two ago, a rider on a group ride, on a big descent, greeted a javelina at high speed. He was knocked out and driven away in an ambulance, while the javelina sauntered off to continues its S.O.P., i.e., eating and pooping.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*Campy brakes...*



Forrest Root said:


> I It only takes a gnat's fart to lockup the rear, so that severely limits the amount of braking it can do. The rear brake is most effective in modulating speed in corners or in braking in conjunction with the front. While the front, does provide the majority of braking effectiveness, it should be used in conjunction with the rear for best braking.


To my knowledge Campy is the only company smart enough to have a much lower braking force on the rear. It's much more difficult to lock up a rear wheel with a Campy single pivot rear brake, but still possible. I only did it once in a panic situation when a car I was following down a steep descent decided to slam on their brakes. Some drivers like to pass cyclists on a straight section of road, then get mad when the cyclist stays close in the corners. 

I brake as you suggest, applying the brakes before reaching a critical corner and at no other time. If a road is in poor condition with lots of potholes and broken pavement, I avoid it if at all possible. We have some montain roads in that condition, but not many. The descent down Mt. Evans isn't the best, nor is the road on down to Evergreen, although they are improving it. 

I had a friend ask me if I'd used up a lot brake pads since moving to Colorado. I've still got the original pads on 5 year old brakes, so I obviously don't brake a lot.


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## 99trek5200 (Jan 26, 2007)

C-40 said:


> What a bunch of whimps. A 15% grade is an 8.5 degree angle. Percent grade is the tangent (rise/run) of an angle times 100, but with roads the "run" can't be measured horizontally, so it's really the sine of the angle.
> 
> I love to ride a 50 mph if I can find a road that's steep enough with a good tail wind, but it does have to be smooth and free of critters. I managed to hit 48 today on my regular mountain descent, since there was a good tailwind.
> 
> ...


First off, I am a wimp. I'm fine with that. However, keep in mind that the OP stated that his 15% descent was curvy, rough and he is new to riding. Hmmm. What is the appropriate advice? I have seen a very experienced rider taken on a Flight for Life ride cause he ran out of road trying to avoid a downed rider on a twisty 7% grade. He hit a tree and suffered 5 broken ribs and a punctured lung. You never know what is around the next bend.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

C-40 said:


> To my knowledge Campy is the only company smart enough to have a much lower braking force on the rear. It's much more difficult to lock up a rear wheel with a Campy single pivot rear brake, but still possible. I only did it once in a panic situation when a car I was following down a steep descent decided to slam on their brakes. Some drivers like to pass cyclists on a straight section of road, then get mad when the cyclist stays close in the corners.


My last two emergency stops had the rear wheel chirping as it would unweight, load, unweight, load, and etc. In both cases, I had front brake left to use, but it wouldn't have done me any good, as it would have put me on my head. IMHO, a not so small number of cyclists could use a better understanding of braking on two wheels.


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## brurider (May 14, 2002)

Posters are correct in that power to weight ratio is most critical along with practice, practice, practice. I suggest doing some studying up on gear ratios. Picking the proper cassettes and chainrings will make all the difference. Some may think this blasphemous, but you don't have to go with the big 3 of components (Campy, Shimano, Sram) to get what will work - especially if the budget is tight. Some after market stuff will work just fine. If it doesn't and you deal with a reputable bike shop (another HUGE factor) they will make it work or find a solution that will. And think out of the box a bit - maybe wide range mountain bike cassettes with road chainrings.

Going back to the gearing thing. If you get gears too high, you'll blow yourself up and never want to do the cycling thing again. That happened to a fellow rider, a newbie. After a year he switched to a triple making his riding experience much better while still plenty of challenging enough on the hills. If you get gears too low, you will be able to climb anything with the sacrifice of perhaps plateauing out from a fitness perspective. That is what happened to me when running a Raleigh 500, '98 version, with 26-36-46 triple and 7 speed rear end spec'd out to 11-28 - my first road bike. After about 6 years I thought I needed a "new lighter bike" because soon as the road went up, my riding partners dropped me. My LBS cycling guru suggested I keep the money and go with a 34/50 compact with the caveat that "You won't like me for a while." He was right. The climbs were harder, but over time, a couple seasons, I got better on the hills. Of course one can always switch to a higher gear once you've mastered a climb in granny. But if honest, we all want to reach for that extra low gear when the climbs get merciless.

Keep on spinnin'.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

99trek5200 said:


> First off, I am a wimp. I'm fine with that. However, keep in mind that the OP stated that his 15% descent was curvy, rough and he is new to riding. Hmmm. What is the appropriate advice? I have seen a very experienced rider taken on a Flight for Life ride cause he ran out of road trying to avoid a downed rider on a twisty 7% grade. He hit a tree and suffered 5 broken ribs and a punctured lung. You never know what is around the next bend.



Well, experienced riders make mistakes, too. Again, dragging your brakes down a long descent is a great way to melt your pads and end up with zero braking. Likewise, riding your front brakes through corners is a muy bad habit that will likely result with you being on the ground someday. Braking before a corner does not have to mean waiting until you see the face of your god and then counting five steamboats before you throw out the anchors. 

Proper descending and braking techniques are the same, whether you're a newbie or a Pro Tour god.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

I have another question.
Like I said, the hill is quite a windy descent, and due to its grade, i would think that it'd be very easy to hit 40 or 50 if not faster.
How can i try to take those turns without having the bike slip out under me? I've seen a few cycling videos of bikes slipping out from under pro cyclists that take turns too fast...so i'm wondering what's too fast? I'm not looking to race; just have fun with speed/not ruin brakes.
thanks


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

There's no easy answer to that. Soft tire compounds stick better, but wear out quickly. My suggestion is to just ride it. Take it slow, and give yourself plenty of time in both directions. If you have to get off and walk part of the way up, or stop and rest, then so be it. But you'll eventually build your fitness to where you can make it easily, then eventually start getting faster. 

Because of the speeds on the dh part, I would take it easy on that too. No sense in risking a brutal crash. The different in time that it takes you to go 1 mile at a 35 mph average, vs a 45 mph average is not worth the risk of losing control. Especially with rough pavement and cross winds. You'll start to get a feel for your bike, and what it, and you, are capable of. But only push it in the corners on flat, lower sped, sharper curves. You'll get a feel for how much lateral force you can build up before it starts to slip out on you. But be aware that different tires, tire wear, road surface, and temperature will affect how much they stick.


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