# Neal Schubel, 45, suspended



## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-masters-racer-suspended-for-epo-use


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

who cares


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*Duh!*

The funniest thing is to check out how much he benefited from 'juicing' this past season!
I think that he needs a better gynecologist! LOL

http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=198628 

:lol:


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

Facepalm!


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## 95zpro (Mar 28, 2010)

Went from placing 99th to top twenty's; not bad results if you ask me. Besides whose to say those dnf's weren't mechanicals?


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

rubbersoul said:


> who cares


I do because it shows to what lengths the average Joe racer will go to to improve performance. They just popped a 38 year old guy in Colorado for EPO too. It's sad.

Jeff


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

Pathetic.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

So, if he's not using the EPO, can I borrow it?


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

piano said:


> The funniest thing is to check out how much he benefited from 'juicing' this past season!
> I think that he needs a better gynecologist! LOL
> 
> http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=198628
> ...


That is pretty sad.


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

He's got an explanation on his Facebook page and it's entirely plausible/believable. I don't think that what he did is too far out of the realm for any of us to try if we could do it anonymously. I'm sure that everyone who races has asked themselves the "what if" question a time or two. It sounds like he just dwelled on it a little too long and dwelled on it a little more, making a very poor judgement call. It doesn't make it right, but he's not saying that it does either.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001853479021&v=info


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jlgoodin78 said:


> I don't think that what he did is too far out of the realm for any of us to try if we could do it anonymously.


yes it is.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

jlgoodin78 said:


> I'm sure that everyone who races has asked themselves the "what if" question a time or two.


Yeah, what if there weren't any dopers. That's the only what if question I want to know.


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## jnschwie (Apr 17, 2008)

> I had always wondered what it would feel like to cycle on it and exactly how much it could increase a person's performance.


Translation: I wanted to be the first rider on the weekend LBS group ride without doing the work.



> I am a good father, husband, and honest businessman...


Translation: Lying is second nature for me.



> My hematacrit before I took it was 42.3 and when I had it tested the lst week in September it had gone up to 49.2, and by mid-October it had dropped back to 44.5 I had trained with a powertap that year and my maxmimum wattage output had been 332 watts for 32 minutes at the Willow Time Trial. I did a 25 minute time trial test the 2nd week in September and my wattage was 361 watts. It was almost a 9% increase on end of season fatigued legs.


Translation: Obviously, it worked.



> I did not race on it during this time.


Translation: See what I mean about the lying?



> I shared the numbers so hopefully anyone curious can refer to these and NOT try it!!!!


Translation: Do as I say and not as I do, but if you are looking for an edge, I highly recommend EPO if you can avoid getting pinched. Did I mention that you can get it online?



> I stole a .98 cent car air freshener in 10th grade and got caught, I knowingly drove my car way over the legal limit when I was 23 and got caught


Translation: I have a life-long history of poor decision making. Did I mention I was a good father, husband, and honest businessman?



> I feel proud starting the West Branch race, and I want to make sure I give something positive back to the sport and not cast it in a bad light.


Translation: Starting some no-name race should more than make up for my cheating, no?


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

jnschwie said:


> Quote:
> My hematacrit before I took it was 42.3 and when I had it tested the lst week in September it had gone up to 49.2, and by mid-October it had dropped back to 44.5 I had trained with a powertap that year and my maxmimum wattage output had been 332 watts for 32 minutes at the Willow Time Trial. I did a 25 minute time trial test the 2nd week in September and my wattage was 361 watts. It was almost a 9% increase on end of season fatigued legs.
> 
> Translation: Obviously, it worked


Something that I find incredibly funny is the fact that my hematacrit a month out of competition is higher than his in competition.


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

*Doubt it*



den bakker said:


> yes it is.


Yes, in an ideal world nobody would dope. We'd all go on what we know to be the right thing and wouldn't even consider it. The fact is that we don't live in a perfect world and none of us are perfect moral agents. While doping is entirely stupid I don't believe that it's feasible to place one's self on a higher pedestal and think that absolutely, under no circumstances would one resist doping if they knew there were no chance of getting caught. Yup, it's completely idiotic, but not implausible to think that you'd never do it. How many of us said to ourselves, "I'll never try pot", got to college and decided to try it "just once" to see what it was all about. For the majority it may have been just once, and while it's stupid even just once it still doesn't make someone a terrible person for giving it a whirl. It's the world we live in. Fortunately Mr. Schubel's actions had the most direct effect on him and not anyone else.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jlgoodin78 said:


> Yup, it's completely idiotic, but not implausible to think that you'd never do it.


I can only assume you mean "you" in a general manner and not personally.


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

*I'd like to know that as well*



FTF said:


> Yeah, what if there weren't any dopers. That's the only what if question I want to know.


I'd like to know the answer to that question as well, but it doesn't make Mr. Schubel a demon to have asked himself "what would epo do for me?". I'm certain that many have asked themselves a similar question about some sort of PED. The majority of us don't ponder on the question for long enough to let it become temptation, but the reality is that PEDs are easily acquired, are obviously giving people performance enhancements, and those who train 14+ hours/week to race local/state races and work full time jobs are probably going to have the fantasy of being the strongest guy on the block play heavily in their heads, especially when training heavily and not posting strong results. 

I've never done it, never contemplated it beyond the "what does that do for one's performance" thought, and would like to see it eliminated. Heck, even if it were legal I'm too much of a chickensh1t to put anything like that in my body (eat like a monk and have only taken 1 antibiotic in the last 5 years when I was more ill than I've ever been). Most of us are probably that way.

We just live in a culture, and this board reflects it, where if someone makes a single, stupid mistake they're cast as a demon and the cynicism of that doesn't even allow them an explanation. We've all made stupid mistakes, some more stupid than others, and Mr. Schubel obviously made a really stupid blunder. At least he's owning up to it and is man enough to admit the stupidity and accept his consequences. In my mind that goes much farther than too many of the so-called "heroes" of our generation.


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## jlgoodin78 (Dec 13, 2007)

den bakker said:


> I can only assume you mean "you" in a general manner and not personally.


Of course. I don't know -you- as an individual so I can only say "you" in a general manner. I'm not about to cast assumptions at someone I don't know.


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## jnschwie (Apr 17, 2008)

waldo425 said:


> Something that I find incredibly funny is the fact that my hematacrit a month out of competition is higher than his in competition.


That's pretty impressive for basically living at sea level. Obviously there are a variety of factors that can affect it, but I'm impressed.


For reference, below are my hct concentrations over time:
I bottomed out at 37.6 (hgb of 12.7) during chemotherapy this past Spring. (I never got erythropoetin either). I'm still not quite back to my peak of 48.7 (hgb 16.5) as I was at 46.0 middle of last month. For reference, I live at just around 6,000. I can say that while the difference between 37 and 46 is _unbelievable_, there is simply no excuse for recreational EPO use.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

waldo425 said:


> Something that I find incredibly funny is the fact that my hematacrit a month out of competition is higher than his in competition.


why? if anything, training lowers the hematocrit levels.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

jlgoodin78 said:


> I'd like to know the answer to that question as well, but it doesn't make Mr. Schubel a demon to have asked himself "what would epo do for me?". I'm certain that many have asked themselves a similar question about some sort of PED. The majority of us don't ponder on the question for long enough to let it become temptation, but the reality is that PEDs are easily acquired, are obviously giving people performance enhancements, and those who train 14+ hours/week to race local/state races and work full time jobs are probably going to have the fantasy of being the strongest guy on the block play heavily in their heads, especially when training heavily and not posting strong results.
> 
> I've never done it, never contemplated it beyond the "what does that do for one's performance" thought, and would like to see it eliminated. Heck, even if it were legal I'm too much of a chickensh1t to put anything like that in my body (eat like a monk and have only taken 1 antibiotic in the last 5 years when I was more ill than I've ever been). Most of us are probably that way.
> 
> We just live in a culture, and this board reflects it, where if someone makes a single, stupid mistake they're cast as a demon and the cynicism of that doesn't even allow them an explanation. We've all made stupid mistakes, some more stupid than others, and Mr. Schubel obviously made a really stupid blunder. At least he's owning up to it and is man enough to admit the stupidity and accept his consequences. In my mind that goes much farther than too many of the so-called "heroes" of our generation.


 It is possible to hold yourself to a higher standard, like ACTUAL training is sucks sometimes, hell a lot of the time, but it's doable, and the rewards are there, something Mr. Schubal knows nothing about.

He isn't a demon, but he isn't a good person. Good people don't wait to get caught to own up to it. One of my very good friends cheated on his girlfriend of many years, when he got home, he told her, and called everyone he knew, hell he told me when I picked him up at the airport, he didn't wait until she found out from someone else, she found out from him, the hard way, that is how a good person acts when they **** up. They don't wait for people to hear about it in velonews, they don't continue racing afterwards on their own accord, they don't risk the reputation of their wife, who supposedly has good results.


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## jnschwie (Apr 17, 2008)

jlgoodin78 said:


> I'd like to know the answer to that question as well, but it doesn't make Mr. Schubel a demon to have asked himself "what would epo do for me?". I'm certain that many have asked themselves a similar question about some sort of PED. The majority of us don't ponder on the question for long enough to let it become temptation, but the reality is that PEDs are easily acquired, are obviously giving people performance enhancements, and those who train 14+ hours/week to race local/state races and work full time jobs are probably going to have the fantasy of being the strongest guy on the block play heavily in their heads, especially when training heavily and not posting strong results.


Asking a question doesn't make one a demon at all. He did more than ask.

Let's not kid ourselves here: He had to fraudulently order it somehow. This drug isn't just a pill you buy at GNC. It isn't a powder next to the recoverite at the bike shop. It's not a cream you pick up at Walgreens. It isn't even like rolling a joint. He had to _inject_ himself with it.

Personally, I consider this several steps up from trying to smoke pot in college. That's my $0.02.

If you are someone who trains 14 hours a week to race in the local events but have to hold down a full time job, why in the world would you take these kind of unsupervised risks? Since he noted he was an "honest businessman," I think we can assume he isn't well trained in aseptic technique and administration. 

"Yay me! I took 20th against all the rest of the Cat 4/5 nobodies at the 'West Branch' race!" 
WGAF?


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

den bakker said:


> why? if anything, training lowers the hematocrit levels.


That is the first that Ive heard that. In fact, Ive only heard the opposite.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

waldo425 said:


> That is the first that Ive heard that. In fact, Ive only heard the opposite.


Not that it matters but, at least to my knowledge it goes down when you are training hard and racing, up in the off season.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

FTF said:


> Not that it matters but, at least to my knowledge it goes down when you are training hard and racing, up in the off season.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

waldo425 said:


> That is the first that Ive heard that. In fact, Ive only heard the opposite.


Hard training lowers your Hct. Hard racing really hammers it, average drop of 13% in a GT.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Hard training lowers your Hct. Hard racing really hammers it, average drop of 13% in a GT.


Do you know if this is the same with sprint racers? I am a track racer and none of my races are long at all and involve a good amount of sprinting.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

waldo425 said:


> Do you know if this is the same with sprint racers? I am a track racer and none of my races are long at all and involve a good amount of sprinting.


Good question. I am not sure. 

There are two reasons why Hct % drops with exercise.

with normal exercise there is an increase in the number of RBCs in the blood....but there is also an increase in plasma volume. This volume expansion causes the Hct and hemoglobin levels to be lower

There have been many studies that show a significant (5-15%)drop in Hct during heavy training and racing. As the body gets tired it begins to limit certain functions, including Hct production. Here is a good study done during the Transalp. There have also been few done during the Tour which show a larger drop in the 3rd week. 

http://www.jssm.org/vol6/n2/16/v6n2-16pdf.pdf


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> There have also been few done during the Tour which show a larger drop in the 3rd week./quote]
> 
> And then there are those "rare" individuals who somehow manage to have consistent HTC numbers throughout the entire TDF.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

jlgoodin78 said:


> How many of us said to ourselves, "I'll never try pot", got to college and decided to try it "just once" to see what it was all about. For the majority it may have been just once, and while it's stupid even just once it still doesn't make someone a terrible person for giving it a whirl. It's the world we live in. Fortunately Mr. Schubel's actions had the most direct effect on him and not anyone else.


I doubt the relevance of the comparison.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

jlgoodin78 said:


> Fortunately Mr. Schubel's actions had the most direct effect on him and not anyone else.


Tell that to the guy who finished 5th at the Tour De Frankenmuth.

I don't know one guy who races _at any level_ that doesn't want to be the best. Heck, most of the guys on the local group ride want to be seen as the best- even if it's only the best of some very mediocre cyclists. Being the strongest, knowing it, and having everyone else recognize it is an incredible feeling.

Most of us go out there and grind away at whatever training we can squeeze in, trying to make the most of what nature has provided us. Some people actually have the opportunity to see where their upper limit is. I'm lazy, so I haven't. But some people, even after all of that hard work and sacrifice, still fall short. It gets harder to shine the higher you climb up the ladder, and the wins and glory don't come easy. Nobody likes to feel inferior, so the justification (in their mind) gets a little easier. Just "leveling the playing field" a bit, to make up for bad genetic hand they were dealt. Doesn't make it right, but I can understand it. 

I admit, I've sat back and idly contemplated it. For me, I don't think I'd feel right about doping. For one, I like the people I race with, and I'd be cheating them (like Mr. #5 at the Tour De Frankenmuth). It's one thing to get there by skill, smarts (which I don't have much of), and legal preparation (training, nutrition, equipment...), and quite another to get it from the pharmacist. Then there's the whole issue of health, which is why I ride in the first place. I won't risk my or my family's future for what is essentially a hobby. Then there's money. I'm having problems justifying to myself (not to mention the wife) the cost of a powermeter- especially for a guy who got a coach just because he knew he was too lazy to do it himself. For me, the cost/benefit equation just doesn't add up. I'm never going to be an elite athlete, and I'm completely fine with that. I want to be better, but not at any cost. It just doesn't mean that much to me.

All that said, I just don't know what I would do if I was one of those guys who dedicated my life from an early age to riding a bike. I don't think the dopers love to ride any less than the clean riders. In many cases, their obsession may be even more intense. They're willing to risk _everything_ to excel, to be that dominant rider. Nobody who races does so just to constantly be told they suck, at least no one without serious mental issues. Even when I'm sprinting to avoid being DFL, at least I beat that one guy. Even if he's 80 years old and on a touring bike, there's at least one guy out there that sucks worse than I do. I imagine it's even worse for someone who has wrapped their whole identity around cycling.

Still, Mr #5 and all the other guys who finished behind him in all the other dope-fueled races got cheated. Plain and simple. That "level playing field" just didn't apply to them (unless, of course, they happened to be doping too). He talks about how much good he did for the local cycling community, but something like this can destroy faith in the system- essentially undoing all of the hard work +1.

Understanding the mentality and thinking it's acceptable are two different things.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

When I hear of dopers like this guy or Kenny Williams, or others at the club/amateur level of racing...It really makes me sad and angry. These selfish guys are putting the whole sport at risk...Racing is pointless if you are unsure whether you really "lost" to someone, fair and square...or maybe they just 'doped'..

Lately, after most races, that ugly thought crosses my mind. I hate thinking like that, but I ain't dumb....I have raced with people who have later been busted for PEDs. I know I have probably raced against many others who weren't caught...

When you are more and more likely to be up against dopers in almost any race at every level, why bother to race at all? What is the point, if no matter how hard you train someone may come along, juice-up and ride away from you?

I won't dope to win or get better results. Racing is losing it's fascination for me. When I wonder, after each race or even spirited club rides, whether 'that guy' or 'this guy' has been doing EPO or something...Sucks!

And you Dopers? Think about it. Guys like me, the guys you dope to beat...we may all quit racing and then who will you have for Pack Fodder?....nobody but guys who're crappier Dopers than you.

rant off


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Let's open our eyes 'cause doping, medicating, and many other forms of biochemical manipulations are occuring at EVERY level in EVERY sport and in EVERY age group.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Gnarly 928 said:


> When I hear of dopers like this guy or Kenny Williams, or others at the club/amateur level of racing...It really makes me sad and angry. These selfish guys are putting the whole sport at risk...Racing is pointless if you are unsure whether you really "lost" to someone, fair and square...or maybe they just 'doped'..
> 
> Lately, after most races, that ugly thought crosses my mind. I hate thinking like that, but I ain't dumb....I have raced with people who have later been busted for PEDs. I know I have probably raced against many others who weren't caught...
> 
> ...


+1 Or how about training your ass off and WINNING A RACE CLEAN and having people think YOU are a doper?? That would suck too... That would totally cheapen your win and dedication to training. Better and MORE testing please!:mad2:


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Maybe a Zero-Tolerance rule. When some dic+-head gets caught, beyond doubt with a blatant doping incident...Ban them for ever from racing everywhere. Post it on some website...

Not for 'iffy' stuff like slightly off blood readings, but for things like EPO, for pure and unquestionable Performance Enhancers found in a racer's blood or urine...Kick em right the hell out, for life. I would have (at least) two fewer masters dopers racing around...that I know of just from being a reader here and an occasional racer..

Right now, it seems a bit silly the way it is being done..Someone tests positive so they keep racing for a while, making excuses and appeals, then maybe they get a suspension for a little while and then they are back.

Where is the deterrent? "Catch me doping, and maybe I will have to go do triathlons for a season, or cross-train, but I'll be back!" ? If someone is considering becoming a Doper to win, they'd be less likely to do so if they risked never ever being allowed to race again when caught. 

If casual dopers are allowed to get away with a year suspension or some slap on the wrist much longer...they are risking us all never ever racing again anyhow...because lots of racers are disgusted by our so called sport already...doubting the results of every "race", due to the number of drug violations happening amongst the guys we are supposed to be racing.. Our sport is turning into Pro Wrestling or reality TV...results of races are kinda meaningless when some unknown number of racers could easily be starting and finishing with significant cheating advantages...


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Our current societal values place emphasis on WINNING and not just competing....Whether that means using PED, Olympic gymnists forging birthdays, parents giving female children hormones to delay puberty (yes, I know of this practice from the BMX racing world), junior racers sporting $3,000 wheelsets,etc.

The root of the problem and the solution is in our VALUES. Until that changes, no punishment or suspension will be a deterrant.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

If I wanted to dope for a club ride/crit I'd think there are 100 better suited drugs for it than EPO. Nobody's clubs are doing multi thousand mile stage races. 

Something along the lines of just standard anabolics would seem much more fitting IMO.

And there's no shortage of this crap at gyms everywhere. And in great quantities.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

adimiro said:


> Our current societal values place emphasis on WINNING and not just competing....Whether that means using PED, Olympic gymnists forging birthdays, parents giving female children hormones to delay puberty (yes, I know of this practice from the BMX racing world), junior racers sporting $3,000 wheelsets,etc.
> 
> The root of the problem and the solution is in our VALUES. Until that changes, no punishment or suspension will be a deterrant.


 Actually, if dopers were banned from the sport for life....at least we wouldn't have to race against the Known and Convicted again when they come back from their wrist-slapping.

I do think if cheaters were being banned for life, there would be some positive effect on the overall amount of doping...

If every season, ten or twenty of the top performing Pros had to go get non-cycling jobs at McDs or Wal Mart rather than the million dollar contracts for racing...Other guys would be forced to take that into consideration... "OK, if I dope and get caught, I am gonna be making about $15k a year, selling bikes or turning wrenches. If I finish OK but maybe not in the top ten...I can still work for some team, riding my bike for way better money than if I get banned for life"

I dunno the answer, but what is going on right now is not very acceptable.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Gnarly 928 said:


> I dunno the answer, but what is going on right now is not very acceptable.


As if any of this is some sort of new trend in cycling. Racers at all levels have been looking for ways to get an advantage on the competition since the bicycle was invented. They will continue to do so.

The fact is that these latest amateur sanctions wouldn't have happened without the dealer getting busted. These guys likely wouldn't have been busted through normal testing, because they likely wouldn't have been tested or the testing would have been ineffective. A guy in the domestic peloton willing to gamble his health will likely look at the odds of being popped and figure they are his side- especially if they aren't podium material. Testing costs money, and clubs and promoters aren't exactly rolling in it. If they want to dope, they're going to dope.

Lifetime bans won't likely deter many amateur dopers, although it might thin the ranks by one or two. Until there is a better method of detection than stumbling across a doping ring, maybe one or two caught dopers a year in the US are all you can expect.

I wish I had an answer, but I don't.


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

FTF said:


> One of my very good friends cheated on his girlfriend of many years, when he got home, he told her, and called everyone he knew, ... that is how a *good *person acts when they **** up.


Actually, a good person would never ever cheat on their gf/wife/significant other. Just saying.


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## waldo425 (Sep 22, 2008)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> Actually, a good person would never ever cheat on their gf/wife/significant other. Just saying.


Mistakes are made and sometimes people forget why they are in it. People are people and people make mistakes. Honesty is commendable: just don't be too surprised if I call you stupid when you screw up. Although, pointing that out to a good/ smart person is slightly redundant.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

honestly, who cares? 

changing the rules won't deter cheating

some pretty uptight people here, no surprise given the angst among cycling buffs. he took all the risks. do you have to win races to be counted now? is that the bar we live by? the only difference between a cat5 and a cat2 is experience. the strongest rider doesn't necessarily win the race 

going 60mph down an 8 mile descent in a cat 4/5 or a cat 1,2,3 race is more risky than slipping some EPO casually - of course you know that, but that doesn't change the point right? he cheated, he clearly lost perspective thinking EPO was a good idea

did it cost anyone money or a job? no. 

did it cause damage to others? no. 

were there any consequences? not really, other than some bad publicity 

if there had been maybe that might be different, not to condone his poor choices but people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and all that

i see worse offenses on the highway, people speeding and risking others lives, smoking in cars with their kids, etc. 

should he have done it? no, but last I checked everyone I know has a long resume of really bad decisions some more than others, juxtaposed of course by some really good ones too and guess what! every day you get to walk the line or not - the whole human condition thing; temptation, integrity, desire, lust, self-reliance, judiciousness, devotion, etc 

yeah we all know it is incredibly lame and stupid to play with needles to begin with sure, and yes being a full time racer requires a lot of sacrifice, time, discipline, blah blah but at the end of the day you're a bike racer, not exactly influencing other people's lives. . . most of the time it is just a hobby and a sport YOU have decided to devout lots of time and money too 

smoking some pot would do some of the audience here a little good, it's arguably better than drinking booze anyway 

lighten up, life is short and it isn't black and white, polarizing people for mundane BS and trying to be an uncompromising individual only limits your experiences and understanding of the world. the Victorian age is over, let down your corsets and cramped shoes, your spandex is a little too tight

anyone who is free of sin and has never affronted another person should post up

this is what I don't understand about Floyd Landis, what he did AFTER winning the Tour doped was far worse than winning on dope which did have major implications. his actions after the Tour are far more illustrative of the kind of person he is than anything else - plus it shows how easy it is to get a book published - do something lurid and write 2 books - the first protesting your innocence the other proving your guilt and dishonesty yeehaaw


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

CARBON110 said:


> honestly, who cares?


I care if people I'm racing aginst cheats




CARBON110 said:


> anyone who is free of sin and has never affronted another person should post up


Since we are discussing cheating in armature cycling, I can respond to that. I have never cheated in bike racing, and it sucks to cheat, and the person cheating at a hobby sport has flaws as a person. We can discuss the larger aspect of cheating in professional sport and its reflection on personal and cultural values but the topic here seems to be people cheating at a sport we all do as a hobby, for fun. 

I equate this to a person I know coming over to my house to play nickle and dime poker and cheating. Yeah it doesn't make that person a child molester and while speeding on the freeway is more dangerous and wrong it is an anonymous crime not usually directed at any one person. But in the case of cheating me personally, at what is suppose to be a friendly game, that person is attempting to defraud intentionally people they know and maybe even consider friends, an act which makes you a someone I would not want around me (for the record I would have issues which someone I knew intentionally endangering people as well).


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

32and3cross said:


> I care if people I'm racing aginst cheats
> 
> 
> 
> ...


mmm yes, good reply. 

you sound like a reasonable fellow and present a more philosophical proposition I think

respectfully I have to disagree with your card analogy, I don't think it is fair to equate cards to racing although there are clear parallels. 

A card game much like a bike race, you enter knowing and accepting the risk, the potential gains, you accept the company and in most cases it is much more an intimate experience as you likely know the participants. 

A card game like a bike race is usually won by the best player not the best cards. The odds are much better in a card game but you stand to lose money

you don't stand to lose anything in a bike race, just the race. It doesn't diminish your effort, savvy, skill, discipline, lifestyle, or bank account

I've done my share of 20+ hour weeks, 5am wake up calls, power metering, and anaerobic efforts; I understand the devotion and sacrifice. 

But if I place 20th or 2nd so what? so long as I leave feeling I could not have performed better, meaning I gave it my all 

If I do feel I could have improved my standing I learn and gain experience to hopefully not repeat my mistakes 

so not to dismiss your feelings on cheating, I deplore it, but in amateur bike racing lets not give it credit it doesn't deserve, lets not personalize it like you might by some lackey trying to steal your money in a friendly card game. Lets not make villains out of people that are engaging in a petty practice at high risk to their health for NOTHING

so if some chump wants to risk getting his name publicly associated with EPO and cheating at a BICYCLE race while gambling his health knowingly, I guess who cares? 

Cheating in amateur races exists but it isn't ruining the sport exactly. If you or I get bumped a spot or three by some wank wannabes who gives a sh!t really? it doesn't cost me anytime with my family, or take money out of my wallet, or deny me anything

We don't train and race to merely try and win races. What a self defeating experience that would be and a miserable one at that. 

Riding a bike that much and putting your body through performance based training is about a lot more than winning a bike race. I love dropping the next guy on a climb or sprint as much as I love hanging onto someone's wheel with all that I have, or seeing wildlife from a bicycle seat, or going for a 4 hour ride in brutal weather, rain, sun, snow, testing myself and my will, watching the sun rise and set, socializing with friends, meeting new people, ticking over the pedals for hours, pain, endorphin highs, and much more

My guess is this fella and those before him and the long line that will follow his footsteps will incur some social stigmas around the local riding scene certainly requiring an explanation for much longer than he will have wanted to provide one. A guy that dopes EPO in the amateur ranks loves to ride a bike and most likely has a lot of bike riding buddies, so my guess is he will be doing some long rides alone and his future health care visits could be really scary

for now, his information is interesting, he owned it after the fact but that is more than most Professional bike racers do unfortunately, and he looks like an average bicycle racer in America

The Pros who race for fame and fortune, those whose future depends on their performance, are really the people you can hold their feet to the fire for a few simple reasons. When you get to the level of Professionalism, you become a trademark and are required to live up to a higher standard and set an example. To play fair. That's the expectation and when you cheat in Professional sports, your cheating has major implications

anyway, you sound like good company and I'd play cards with you


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm sorry, but your argument sounds a lot like "as long as there isn't serious money involved, doping is fine". That's a new twist.

While many of us race for the "love of the suck", not everyone does. There are a great many reasons people race, and I can't honestly pass judgement on any of them. As long as they race honestly, I'm happy.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

CARBON110 said:


> mmm yes, good reply.
> 
> you sound like a reasonable fellow and present a more philosophical proposition I think
> 
> ...


Sorry we do disagree but I think we can do that respectfully. I don't agree that is doesn't matter unless big money or what ever is involved.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

Alaska Mike said:


> I'm sorry, but your argument sounds a lot like "as long as there isn't serious money involved, doping is fine". That's a new twist.
> 
> While many of us race for the "love of the suck", not everyone does. There are a great many reasons people race, and I can't honestly pass judgement on any of them. As long as they race honestly, I'm happy.



Hi Mike, how are you?

I don't think it much matters why people race, that isn't the argument right?

I did not say "as long as there isn't serious money involved" I said if you're a professional there are expectations on conduct, on integrity because you have signed a contract to be a representative of the team and to others who may look up to you, your coach, your t-mates, your sponsors, and because people stand to lose large sums of money. So doping on the professional level DOES have major consequences other than health risks 

the question is, to what end does doping in the amateur ranks matter? 

Since it is not rampant and since the federation does not possess the funds or have the desire to test the amateur ranks with very few exceptions, it doesn't matter

it doesn't effect you in any way other than a position or two in a standing of 100+ field which is so highly regarded in this thread as a "bunch of nobodies" 

if you're bumped a place or three so what? it has no bearing on anything

no one here thinks doping is OK or acceptable but like I said previously, don't give it more credit than it deserves and don't make a villain out of some 45 year old who took great health risks for NOTHING

you see the difference?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

CARBON110 said:


> Hi Mike, how are you?


I just got off the trainer and my sit bones are killing me (new saddle). But thanks for asking.


CARBON110 said:


> I don't think it much matters why people race, that isn't the argument right?


For some guys, the mental game is a huge player. If you're denied a place on the podium (or even near it) because of doping, it certainly affects you. Having your records corrected afterwards isn't quite the same thing, Ask Pereiro about that. Suffering on the bike and doing your best, leaving it all out there is certainly a noble goal, but it really doesn't compare to the thrill of winning. Some people are reward-driven, and being cheated out of that reward can leave a sour taste in your mouth.


CARBON110 said:


> you see the difference?


Here's where I disagree. All of that other stuff is really secondary to the actual sport of racing a bike. "Nobility of sport" and all that nonsense, which I still subscribe to despite the evidence to the contrary. At the end of the day, I want to see the best/strongest/smartest racer win- not the guy with the best phamacist. This is at any level, and no matter what the compensation is.

Racing in the States is pretty much on a shoestring, with sponsors ever more leary of being associated with a "dirty" sport- especially in this economy. Better to sponsor a charity ride or something than to be associated with doping (unless you're AMGEN). For this reason, doping positive can kill a small race or a small team as easy as it can affect a ProTour team. That sort of publicity not a whole lot of races/teams really want. Floyd killed Bahati when he started pointing fingers, although it could be debated that they already had one foot in the grave. Schubel's team is probably scrambling to avoid the same fate, as will the teams of all of the other dopers yet to be named. Doesn't take much to kill them.

Doping matters at any level. Maybe the financial impact is a little less at the lower levels, but it does matter. The impact is more than dollars and cents.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

While I do not condone the use of PED in anyway, shape or form....I find so much focus on this matter as a factor influencing race results somewhat naive. There are so many inequalities amongst amateur competitors in any class, that to think that the only difference amongst them is whether or not they use some EPO is too simplistic:

(1) Some competitors have uber-expensive, ultra light rigs that afford a performance enhancement. Should the racer with a stock, mid-range bicycle consider this unfair advantage?

(2) Some competitors have the time and money for personal trainers...is this unfair to the full-time working parent of 2 kids with only limited training time and money?


Philosophically, I agree with CARBON110 views on amateur racing. . We should focus more on our own personal performance, do our personal best, enjoy our cycling passion, and stop worrying about those unhappy, insecure racers who feel the need to win so badly, they have no bounderies for right and wrong.

Amongst amateurs, the diffference between coming in 3rd, 15th, or 35th will never be explained by using EPO (or any other PED) alone.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

I think we all are on the same page and for the most part in agreement

I'd also like to thank you for making this thread really interesting, civil, and a good discussion. Too bad we can't have the conversation on an easy Sunday 40 miler 

adimiro, 

I think you make a fair point and I considered the same but when I thought further on what separates technical advantage, lifestyle responsibilities, and cheating the difference is that everyone accepts light bikes, training supplements, coaching, as par for the course. Cheating is different because everyone agrees not to do it when they line up at the start. Even in amateur races everyone is suppose to be abiding the code of sportsmanship

Mike,

I think we all agree the mental game is important no matter what level you ride or race. That being said, I don't know anyone who privately thinks to him/herself "I hope no one here is cheating!" haha I say that with humor btw 

I would think that is about the last thing on every riders mind. 

Everyone worries about where in the field they are starting, the weather, the twisty decent, the 3 mile climb, the guy not keeping his line around the corner, rubbing elbows, flat tires, and water bottles falling through the field. If they have gotten enough rest, enough to eat, watching for the break, etc.

The best part about cycling is that the strongest person doesn't always win. So for those using EPO it doesn't really mean anything, look at this guys record to prove the point. Much like cards, the smartest player has the best odds of playing, you have to to tip your hat to the guys and dolls at the front of the field doing on the work and sheltering the rest of us 

I guess when it comes down to it, my attitude is don't cry over spilled milk but you may very well feel differently, respectfully


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Sorry- fat fingered it before I was finished.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

Just pointing out there are many variables besides PED use that offer advantages between amateur racers. 

Regarding equipment, there was a recent USAC proposal (which for better or worse did not pass) to ban use of carbon tubular wheelsets among junior cyclocross racers in attempt to more equalize their playing field.


For the same amount of prep and all else being equal, I wonder whether EPO versus 1-2 lb lighter bike weight difference would give the greater performance difference?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

adimiro-
I'm with CARBON110 on this one- It's the difference between legal and illegal, not just who spent the most money. For the same amount of preparation, the guy who took the illegal PED has an unfair advantage, as much as if he took an unauthorized shortcut on the course. It's not just the starts that take PEDs in the pro peloton- domestiques get popped too. Sheltering your team's star rider for a final sprint with your dope-fueled lungs is another, less obvious way to cheat and not get popped. Not all dopers flaunt it like Riccardo Ricco. I wasn't there at those races, so I didn't see the role that Schubel played. He may have controlled the pacemaking or neutralized attacks.

I have a coach (recent development) and a lot of (for me) expensive gear, yet I get crushed by guys with 1/5 the investment. It's still about the engine. The coach is there to push me to train during the cold, snowy months and grow my capacities in a legal way, but the responsibility for the sucess is still on me.


CARBON110 said:


> I think we all agree the mental game is important no matter what level you ride or race. That being said, I don't know anyone who privately thinks to him/herself "I hope no one here is cheating!" haha I say that with humor btw
> 
> I would think that is about the last thing on every riders mind.


I agree, that should never have to enter your mind. It hasn't entered mine before a race, mainly because I am a slow guy in a small club league. Sure, I can control a race if it's a bunch of Beginners (kind of our equivalent of Cat 5s and mid-low CAT 4s), but I am fully expecting to be stomped into the dirt next year due to my upgrade. The coach is there to help me achieve my ultimate goal of being pack fodder. Oh, the glorious dreams I have... 


CARBON110 said:


> Everyone worries about where in the field they are starting, the weather, the twisty decent, the 3 mile climb, the guy not keeping his line around the corner, rubbing elbows, flat tires, and water bottles falling through the field. If they have gotten enough rest, enough to eat, watching for the break, etc.
> 
> The best part about cycling is that the strongest person doesn't always win. So for those using EPO it doesn't really mean anything, look at this guys record to prove the point. Much like cards, the smartest player has the best odds of playing, you have to to tip your hat to the guys and dolls at the front of the field doing on the work and sheltering the rest of us
> 
> I guess when it comes down to it, my attitude is don't cry over spilled milk but you may very well feel differently, respectfully


Again, EPO users can affect the course of the race in a lot of ways. At my level, in my league, I don't worry about it. If I was a faster racer in a higher category in a bigger league, I might. 

Having been the strongest guy in the category (and now the weakest), I actually won my last stage race on pure strength and not smarts. I relied on my prologue and TT domination to cushion me against losses in sprints and climbing stages. It was like Cancellera winning the Tour over climbing specialists. My little 4 cylinder diesel just ground away at the pace to limit the losses, although it meant I spent far too long on the front taking pulls to keep the pace high, while my competition stayed sheltered behind me, waiting for the sprint. I shelled a few off the back and out of contention, but didn't have the strength left at the end to sprint for the win. No smarts at all. There is no way I could pull that off in the higher cats, unless I was doped to the gills. 

A couple of my racing friends jokingly remarked my post-race Endurox R4 recovery drink was mostly HGH and EPO, prompting me to do my best Arnold impression (which isn't all that good). You see, even out in the boondocks of racing, doping is just under the surface of conciousness. They obviously weren't serious, but I've never been comfortable with the implications.

I'm at the point where I assume all pro racers are doping, so as not to get let down yet again when one of them gets popped. It's unfair to the clean riders, but it's how I deal with positive after positive and still stay interested in pro racing. I'm isolated from that world, as the closest I get to racing against an actual pro is a local guy who used to race for Bahati. I'd prefer that racing at my level have about as much in common with pro racing as a game of touch football has with the NFL. I'd rather not even have a glimmer of that question in my mind. I'd rather assume that everyone that beats me has trained harder/more effectively and has more restraint than I do at the buffet. I learned decades ago that I'll never be an elite athlete (genetics), but I still like to find ponds where I can at least be competitive.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

congrats on the win!

just keep your 6th sense about you for bears and moose buddy 

adimiro,

that is interesting. I owned a pair of zipp 303 tubulars for awhile that literally made it feel like I had no wheels, they were in the 1000 gram range. They took some big hits too but when it came down to it, I ebayed them for the simple reason that the probability of them coming apart while under me was much higher than a pair of wheels a pound heavier and I just did not care enough to take those kinds of risks. That and I beat the crap outta my wheels and did not like having to true them before every race ( lazy ) but they were bomb proof even after nailing pizza size potholes at high speed, the kind that loosen your teeth

well good on ya fellas for keeping an open mind

be safe out there


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

CARBON110 said:


> congrats on the win!


Thanks, but I have to put it in perspective. My category win would have put me in the lower 3rd of the class I'm moving into. There's always somebody better than you are, and if there isn't racing isn't any fun. 


CARBON110 said:


> just keep your 6th sense about you for bears and moose buddy


One of my late-fall rides this year was a foggy day- as in pretty much zero visibility. I was riding along in the whiteout when I came upon a bull moose who seemed to fill both lanes of the road. Just huge. I greeted him so he wouldn't be startled and do something moose-like (like stomping me), and he grunted back and moved off of the road. Not 50 yards down the road was a very large brown bear sitting in the middle of the road, contemplating life. I greeted him as well, because it would have been impolite not to. He nodded and also moved off of the road. Ever have a large, omnivorous bear nod at you? Kinda surreal. Another 50 yards down the road was a porcupine, who waddled off before I could engage it in conversation. That was 3 animals that don't usually hang out together within 100 yards of road. The fog likely masked their scents, so it's unlikely they knew the others were there.

I bagged my hill climbing plan and instead did an endurance ride, since I figured I had seen enough weird stuff for one day. No need to add anaerobic halucinations to the list.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> One of my late-fall rides this year was a foggy day- as in pretty much zero visibility. I was riding along in the whiteout when I came upon a bull moose who seemed to fill both lanes of the road. Just huge. I greeted him so he wouldn't be startled and do something moose-like (like stomping me), and he grunted back and moved off of the road. Not 50 yards down the road was a very large brown bear sitting in the middle of the road, contemplating life. I greeted him as well, because it would have been impolite not to. He nodded and also moved off of the road. Ever have a large, omnivorous bear nod at you? Kinda surreal. Another 50 yards down the road was a porcupine, who waddled off before I could engage it in conversation. That was 3 animals that don't usually hang out together within 100 yards of road. The fog likely masked their scents, so it's unlikely they knew the others were there.


Wow that is a great story.


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Interesting to see two things:

1) How many perfect people who never make mistakes post n this forum (not even breaking a single rule in cycling...ever...even the smallest one)

2) How many people have a complete inability to forgive.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Perico said:


> Interesting to see two things:
> 
> 1) How many perfect people who never make mistakes post n this forum (not even breaking a single rule in cycling...ever...even the smallest one)
> 
> 2) How many people have a complete inability to forgive.


Forgive what? The cheating with PEDs? This just happened correct? Also, I have never cheated in cycling....especially on purpose..


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

This has been an enjoyable read, and the first thread of this type that has not deteriorated into childish name calling and bickering that I can recall recently.

My opinion, though, differs from Carbon's. He says that cheating doesn't matter at this level because there is no real hurt being done to other competitors. It seems to me that cheating is cheating, and cheating is morally wrong, no matter if it hurts other people or not. 

Sometime during the last 50 years or so, schools of higher learning have convinced us that since no single person has the right to choose acceptable behavior for anybody but themselves that there is no absolute right or wrong; that morality is a personal thing that we cannot choose or impose on anybody but ourselves. And that thinking otherwise is just a snobbish, holier-than-thou attitude. 

I happen to believe differently. I think right is right and wrong is wrong. Cheating on your fellow competitor, or your wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/ etc. is cheating. And wrong. Stealing is wrong. Murdering is wrong. There ARE absolutes. I'm not saying I'm perfect, and I'm not going to judge other PEOPLE, but I can judge their BEHAVIOR, and declare it bad, wrong, and morally corrupt, and an affront to all those who choose to play by the rules.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> This has been an enjoyable read, and the first thread of this type that has not deteriorated into childish name calling and bickering that I can recall recently.
> 
> My opinion, though, differs from Carbon's. He says that cheating doesn't matter at this level because there is no real hurt being done to other competitors. It seems to me that cheating is cheating, and cheating is morally wrong, no matter if it hurts other people or not.
> 
> ...


Chili, you've done me a big favour with what you've just said. I don't think that I could have explained how I feel about this topic any better than what you've written here. Thank you.

One thing that I have observed is that we live in a world rife with blame. Over and over again we have to listen to people, including athletes who get caught cheating, blaming everyone and everything else for their own choices and behaviour. Playing the poor victim and making excuses (often absolutely ridiculous and pathetic ones) while rarely, if ever taking responsibility for themselves.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Perico said:


> Interesting to see two things:
> 
> 1) How many perfect people who never make mistakes post n this forum (not even breaking a single rule in cycling...ever...even the smallest one).


I actually mentioned that I've briefly, casually considered doping- in the abstract. I can completely see where it would be tempting. I just weighed the personal pros and cons and decided I couldn't do it. I'm not on a team, but being on a team isn't so important to me that I would dope to keep my spot. I have other interests, so as important as cycling is to me I can live without it and my sense of identity will remain intact. I'm not pro material, so my paycheck does not rely on my performance on the bike. I want to ride my bike and measure my abilities against those of my peers, pushing myself to truly see what I am capable of. If occasionally I get to crush a soul or two, that's just a bonus. I imagine that the vast majority of non-pros are the same way.

To be honest, hardcore penalties for the non-pros might be the only effective deterrent, given the lack of regular testing. I know it may sound cruel, but these guys aren't just pinning on their numbers wrong or riding an unapproved TT frame. They are basically cheating on the most fundamental part of the sport- which is the engine. They are cheating guys who do this for fun, not for money or any real measure of fame. And for the most part, they are getting away with it. 

Everyone makes mistakes, but they should also be held resposible for those mistakes. 



Perico said:


> 2) How many people have a complete inability to forgive.


I think most people here are willing to forgive, if the guilty party admits their transgressions in a somewhat timely manner and tries to atone for them, instead of looking to blame others for their own shortcomings and mistakes. There is a road back, but it isn't a "say you're sorry and everything's gravy", easy sort of path. That sort of breach of trust requires a lot of work to repair. I can tell you one thing, these guys are probably not going to be welcomed back into the local cycling scene with bouquets and kisses once their sanctions are done. Why would they be?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

As somebody who was beaten by this guy in an Expert level mountain bike race back in 2006, I think it's hilarious that somebody would go to such lengths at the master's level to improve performance. BTW, it is suspected he was dealing to other Master's level roadies in the area, I've got my ideas about his clients. Also, his wife used to clean up locally in the Women's Pro class, what are the odds that husband/wife are both into cycling, the husband is doping, and the wife has no idea? They should negate her results as well, that would create a true punishment scenario (coming home everyday to a p_ssed wife)...


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> This has been an enjoyable read, and the first thread of this type that has not deteriorated into childish name calling and bickering that I can recall recently.
> 
> My opinion, though, differs from Carbon's. He says that cheating doesn't matter at this level because there is no real hurt being done to other competitors. It seems to me that cheating is cheating, and cheating is morally wrong, no matter if it hurts other people or not.
> 
> ...


We all come to the crossroads in our lives though it is never at a time we'd like or prefer, a time that would make it easier to make the right decision. But we nearly always know what the right decision is

humor me here a litttle

Chili & Piano,

I think your remarks are what most people feel and think. Cheating is an unacceptable way to conduct oneself in any subject and is contrary to sportsmanship and the rules of racing

no argument there - cheaters and cheating sucks and is an unfortunate part of every competitive activity 

but to what degree does it impact your daily life or your future?

there is something very interesting about this conversation and it can be illustrated by your comments, Perico's sentiments and why I think we're all in agreement but differ only because of the mass confusion that our pop culture has ingrained in our lifestyle and perception of what we deem is right and wrong ethically

you suggest there is moral relativism in our pop culture that excuses accountability. I think that is a fair assessment on many levels but not always true!!

But don't get confused, I agree that cheating is wrong and people should be held accountable, but to what degree does it really matter and to what degree do we hold them accountable?

important questions which require consideration if you want to discuss right and wrong or morality yes?

Perico and I share a similar theme it appears; hey people are human, that doesn't excuse the behavior of misconduct, but keep it in perspective, no need to get up in arms about some guy cheating in Master's races, because doping in amateur racing isn't ruining the sport and the consequences are minimal - that does not condone it though. Piss you off absolutely, categorize it as lame and stupid and leave it at that. Especially when you consider the cheaters have really nothing to gain themselves. A simple ban from the racing scene will do, no need to make them out to be Dr. Evil 

lets not go to the mattresses over spilled milk eh

you can like love the way Virenque would go on the attack AND hate him for doping and selling his mechanic down the river. 

It doesn't have to be one way or the other!!

Piano, 

I think you make great points and yes the political world and athletic professional world are full of people trying to take short cuts, getting caught, then attempting to exit the easy way by blame shifting.

Culture - 

It is pathological in our culture but look at what we celebrate: success, money, reward through material gain; a great majority of our population assesses everything through a Machiavellian type of attitude - what's in it for me? how do I get mine? and what lengths am I willing to go to to achieve ambition? step on my coworker? step on a t-mate? 

Individuality gets lost. One can not simply be satisfied with racing a race and giving it your all and finishing 15th

More on culture -

Triangulation is rampant in American office settings with divisive dynamics in the family setting and at work influencing our daily experience. This can change how we perceive the world easily. Staying immune and keeping a balance a sort of emotional IQ is required to not get bogged down by cynicism 

A kind of American narcissism coupled with American exceptionalism - that some how I am better, faster, and cooler than you or the next guy because of my car, my bike, my wallet, my address I do not have to subscribe to civility - I am unapologetic 

Look at RBR for example. How sanctimonious and inflamed a simple discussion gets, the endless rage through sarcasm that dismisses the importance of someone's point of view while at the same time redirects the dialogue to conflict and insult instead of the original subject - any substance being lost along the way and everyone thinking it is more important to be RIGHT than actually listen to others or go through the agony of saying "oops, sh!t I'm sorry, I was wrong about that" 

and guess what, ALL of us are guilty of it at one point or another in our lives but that doesn't mean people don't change - some do some don't seems to be the case. But we take great pride in denying responsibility. Civility isn't even in the backseat anymore, we left it on the side of the road when we saw the sign for immediate gratification and self-righteousness 

Cheating -

Criminals weigh the chances of getting caught, not the consequences. Clever marketing and the notion you have to continue becoming never being ( look how cat 4/5s are frowned upon as not serious or decent bike riders in the cycling world ) or that we are entitled to certain things without having to work for them. Our principles all to often depend on what mood we are in and to what degree we are inconvenienced pretty much sums up a lot of our culture. There you find moral relativism 

If people so easily sh!t on one another for no real reason, and others escape unharmed when breaking the law, you can't be real surprised when people cheat and lie. Frustration is normal, that's expected but don't lose your footing thinking you will change the world by making examples when our culture inherently encourages all the wrong things

We watch everyday how people get away with far worse than cheating in bike races . Look at our national politics, or someone cutting you off in line, getting bumped to the waiting list of a University because some other persons father went to school there even though you're a better candidate, losing a job to keep corporate stocks high, on and on. Those things influence your life a lot more. Fairness a lot of the time requires luck or the right people in the right place at the right time 

Keeping your perspective and holding your emotions in check through self-awareness and brain power keeps your feet on the ground and will serve you much better than knee jerk reactions to a high-noon style form of justice - like condemning the poor bastards wife through association 

RACING -

So who cares about cheating in amateur races? yeah it sucks and is wrong but it doesn't cost you anything, the implications are null and the idiots who engage in it are taking huge risks to their personal health. Racing bicycles by all accounts is a hobby that can lead to a very demanding lifestyle depending on your depth of commitment 

I think it is fair to say there are certain absolutes that a person can engage in during one's life that do define who they are, stuff you go to prison for - but for the most part, over decades, you can't define a person or their experience from one instance or one error. 

Or you can and tell yourself that it is OK to judge others but that leaves you with a misleading and false impression of the truth. What about redemption?

Life doesn't have to be all peanuts all the time. That is unrealistic. Some of the biggest monsters this world has ever seen are idealists

Harley Davidson has been reporting record earnings the last year or two - $70million plus last quarter I think. Meanwhile they lay off some 3500 workers to get those earnings while exclaiming how "American" their product is - want to hang some people for outrageous behavior? go down to Wall St. hahaha 

it's a dog eat dog world out there and we encourage it as being part of how we feel our world should run - don't get too concerned about dopers and I think it is best to try not to polarize people you don't know anything about other than a paragraph in the local editorial

if you want to change the way business is being done or mark your influence on society and culture by digging below the superficial surface run for office 

in the meantime enjoy this brief sojourn we all are on, we have it better than most of the world and there is always the opportunity and potential for change


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

CARBON110 said:


> RACING -
> 
> So who cares about cheating in amateur races? yeah it sucks and is wrong but it doesn't cost you anything, the implications are null and the idiots who engage in it are taking huge risks to their personal health. Racing bicycles by all accounts is a hobby that can lead to a very demanding lifestyle depending on your depth of commitment
> 
> I think it is fair to say there are certain absolutes that a person can engage in during one's life that do define who they are, stuff you go to prison for - but for the most part, over decades, you can't define a person or their experience from one instance or one error.


I agree with the second paragraph above, but as far as I'm concerned, it need not temper expressions of outrage by racers in the context of the man's cheating _in racing_. While I tend to agree with you that few single incidents can "define" a person, single incidents can (and seemingly must) influence perception of a person, whether willingness to consider that person trustworthy, or form whatever other conclusion is relevant. If Schubel were applying for a position as an elementary school teacher, could something like this fairly influence an assessment of his character in the hiring decision? What if he was applying to be the coach of the high school track team?

Also, I disagree with the first paragraph above. I think at least one other poster touched on this, but, without getting into it in too much detail, I believe in a fairly longstanding ideal of sport, sportsmanship and fairness, especially at the amateur level. One participant's cheating "costs" other competitors the opportunity to test themselves in their chosen endeavor on its own terms. To my way of thinking (and I recognize that this may not be important to you), it's not the single placing that one may lose to a doper that is particularly bothersome, but rather that one contestant's decision to cheat essentially deprives all the other contestants the opportunity to participate in what they're entitled to expect---a fair competition where everyone is left with the combined results of their own uncontrollable genetics, very controllable training, savvy and fortune. If I just wanted to ride my bike "as hard as I could" on any given day, I could just pull out the bike and head out alone. But with a successful and demanding career, a wife and child, and a love for riding and racing bikes, I nonetheless make long-term plans, and sacrifices, to test myself in a way that I want to be able to test myself (which isn't purely to be the best cyclist I could be---as it's not my most important priority---but rather to see if I can be successful in competing against professionals and aspiring professionals while enjoying the other aspects of my life, to determine the sacrifices I am willing to make, to know myself a bit better through the process of training and racing). So what _I_ want from racing is not 3rd versus 4th in a particular race, or the top spot in the best area racer standings, but just the opportunity to compete fairly against the best racers who choose to show up. I don't let it crush me that the "fairly" aspect may not always apply, but it doesn't mean I don't resent having the opportunity taken from me, and it doesn't mean that the loss of that opportunity isn't a "cost."


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## ChilliConCarnage (Jun 1, 2006)

+1 . Well said Undecided.


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## FTF (Aug 5, 2003)

ChilliConCarnage said:


> Actually, a good person would never ever cheat on their gf/wife/significant other. Just saying.


When I was younger I would have agreed, hell a decent part of me wants to agree now. But good people screw up, cheating is one of the biggest imho, I'm just saying there's a right and a wrong way to handle your screw ups. 

I've never cheated on a gf/wife/gaylover, nor have I ever had a wife or a gay lover, but there you go. I'm 100% sure I never would, but man you never know, you know, I wouldn't have ever thought this guy would either.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

Undecided said:


> I agree with the second paragraph above, but as far as I'm concerned, it need not temper expressions of outrage by racers in the context of the man's cheating _in racing_. While I tend to agree with you that few single incidents can "define" a person, single incidents can (and seemingly must) influence perception of a person, whether willingness to consider that person trustworthy, or form whatever other conclusion is relevant. If Schubel were applying for a position as an elementary school teacher, could something like this fairly influence an assessment of his character in the hiring decision? What if he was applying to be the coach of the high school track team?
> 
> Also, I disagree with the first paragraph above. I think at least one other poster touched on this, but, without getting into it in too much detail, I believe in a fairly longstanding ideal of sport, sportsmanship and fairness, especially at the amateur level. One participant's cheating "costs" other competitors the opportunity to test themselves in their chosen endeavor on its own terms. To my way of thinking (and I recognize that this may not be important to you), it's not the single placing that one may lose to a doper that is particularly bothersome, but rather that one contestant's decision to cheat essentially deprives all the other contestants the opportunity to participate in what they're entitled to expect---a fair competition where everyone is left with the combined results of their own uncontrollable genetics, very controllable training, savvy and fortune. If I just wanted to ride my bike "as hard as I could" on any given day, I could just pull out the bike and head out alone. But with a successful and demanding career, a wife and child, and a love for riding and racing bikes, I nonetheless make long-term plans, and sacrifices, to test myself in a way that I want to be able to test myself (which isn't purely to be the best cyclist I could be---as it's not my most important priority---but rather to see if I can be successful in competing against professionals and aspiring professionals while enjoying the other aspects of my life, to determine the sacrifices I am willing to make, to know myself a bit better through the process of training and racing). So what _I_ want from racing is not 3rd versus 4th in a particular race, or the top spot in the best area racer standings, but just the opportunity to compete fairly against the best racers who choose to show up. I don't let it crush me that the "fairly" aspect may not always apply, but it doesn't mean I don't resent having the opportunity taken from me, and it doesn't mean that the loss of that opportunity isn't a "cost."


that is a solid post - great clarity and introspection!

thx for writing

I am with you all the way. I didn't mean to lessen the value of frustration caused by the disgrace cheating brings on both a sport and it's participants. I thought I emphatically stated that it sucks, it's lame, and contributes to very low gains for the cheater in the end. All frustration by those who play fair is totally understandable. Especially for people who actually live the lifestyle and make the compromises required by competitive sports like you do

anyway, good discussion all


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## Perico (Mar 15, 2010)

Based on the responses to my post I will stick with my first point as its clear some people here feel they are perfect. I will also say it's clear that some people feel that the only way for someone to be forgiven if they jump through the hoops set by that one person and that "being held responsible" means no forgiveness ever and the harshest penalty possible. In their world we would have anyone who gets arrested in prison for life and the death penalty for anything over shoplifting.


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## scarab$ (Jun 14, 2010)

Guys... It's racing. 

Just because the racer's body is the engine, don't think for a second that the 'rules' will not be bent to the point of breaking. In RACING, it's all part of the battle to not get caught.

Racing in not about religion, ethics, morality, or any of the BS most of you are spewing about... it's about winning. Plain and simple.

If winning means adding a bit more fuel to the tank with EPO, riders are going to push every bounds to use it but not get caught. Same for any other 'banned' substance, and the dozen's of others that aren't on anybody's lips right now.

Happens everyday in CART, F1, MotoGP, NASCAR, CHAMP and every other sport where there's a RACE. Since it's the sactioning body's job to catch rules infractions of all types, there's no need to get so personal with the racers. If they get caught, the punishment comes from the sactioning organization. No need for all the malice, is there?  

Let's see if we can stop being so holy where cycling is concerned and just enjoy the racing, the racers and the teams. Like NASCAR, assume every rule will be broken seeking the win and relax.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

scarab$ said:


> Guys... It's racing.
> 
> Just because the racer's body is the engine, don't think for a second that the 'rules' will not be bent to the point of breaking. In RACING, it's all part of the battle to not get caught.
> 
> ...


never use NASCAR to make a point about anything,

you lose all credibility 




In the world of the American psyche where cycling is concerned, you're simply in or out

Hero or Villain - and we eat our own ferociously 

actually the cycling governing bodies are more understanding than the cycling public. 2 year bans and all is forgiven. Many people never grasp the idea that life is actually nonlinear


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

CARBON110 said:


> In the world of the American psyche where cycling is concerned, you're simply in or out
> 
> Hero or Villain - and we eat our own ferociously
> 
> actually the cycling governing bodies are more understanding than the cycling public. 2 year bans and all is forgiven. Many people never grasp the idea that life is actually nonlinear


I think to a large degree you're right- the punishment doesn't necessarily end when the sanction does. Floyd Landis is a prime example of this, as is the Chicken and every other rider who had difficulty finding a good ride after their suspension for doping. It's not just the US public that feels this way, or many of the disgraced riders would be back on top teams. Sponsors don't want the bad publicity, teams don't want to risk being excluded from races...

In amateur cycling, it's more of a question of your peers. Any good performance on the part of the "former" doper is going to raise questions in the minds of their competitors, which is something nobody wants to think about. The unofficial sanctions can be worse than the official ones.

A felon forfeits certain rights even after their sentence is up that law abiding citizens enjoy. Most people agree that the felon has broken a basic pact with society, and therefore is deemed untrustworthy. Sex offenders have to register and are publicly identified as such- even after their punishment. Note that I am not directly equating doping to gain an advantage in a Tuesday night crit with the more serious crimes, but the principle remains. Those serious felonies go against the basic tenents of civilized society, and in the smaller, less important world of amateur cycling, doping strikes at the core of sport. At the end of the day, an athelete wants to either win or to know they were beaten by the athlete with superior ability, developed through honest effort and natural characteristics. They don't want to be beaten by a pharmacist.

I do believe that life is linear, in that you can't undo what has been done. Life is about choices and options. Your choices either increase or decrease your options from that point forward. Bad choices generally limit your options. Good choices generally expand the number. People who make major mistakes aren't neccessarily bad, but there are consequences for actions that must be faced.

I think David Millar would agree with me. I honestly believe there is a road to "redemption", but it should not be an easy one. His certainly hasn't been, and he knows that there will always be a question mark for some people behind any good result. He's a known, admitted doper. He's done it before to win and be successful, so he has the potential to do it again. I'm not 100% sure he is clean now (nor the rest of the peloton), but his actions since his return have shown him to be someone committed to clean cycling, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

A pro athlete has a shelf life. An amatuer athlete can race at various levels until their legs fall off. A 2 year ban is much more significant on the pro level, as it's a big chunk of the average pro career. "Unofficial", social sanctions level the playing field a bit.

"Throw the bums out" is a bit harsh, I think. However, getting all "hugs and kisses" once the sanction is done is a bit unrealistic as well. 

"Trust, but verify".


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

scarab$ said:


> Guys... It's racing.
> 
> Let's see if we can stop being so holy where cycling is concerned and just enjoy the racing, the racers and the teams.


Actually I'll just continue to do both


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

Alaska Mike said:


> I think to a large degree you're right- the punishment doesn't necessarily end when the sanction does. Floyd Landis is a prime example of this, as is the Chicken and every other rider who had difficulty finding a good ride after their suspension for doping. It's not just the US public that feels this way, or many of the disgraced riders would be back on top teams. Sponsors don't want the bad publicity, teams don't want to risk being excluded from races...
> 
> In amateur cycling, it's more of a question of your peers. Any good performance on the part of the "former" doper is going to raise questions in the minds of their competitors, which is something nobody wants to think about. The unofficial sanctions can be worse than the official ones.
> 
> ...


this is quickly becoming a favorite thread of mine 

you all are raising some very tough arguments about society, culture, tradition, justice, and anthropology. Your replies beg more questions than they answer! cool!! 

Plato would be proud!

again thank you for the civility, candidness, and honesty displayed here. It is like a fireside chat instead of the usual competition for disparaging remarks 

Perico - 

I entreat you to continue contributing to this thread as the conversation evolves. I hope you don't get frustrated as I think you are on to something of great importance. If you can illustrate your feelings and thoughts through practical examples, something people can taste or put their hands on or identify with I think you will make a powerful argument. I am trying to do the same 

Mike,

you hit on some really good questions and details. You sound like a really thoughtful person and though our perspectives differ it is easy to see from your remarks you have given these subjects time and consideration. Again I think we are on the same page

earlier I spoke about the implications that a 45 year old doper would have to incur. you know the guy loves to ride and has a lot of riding buddies so of course there are going to be stigmas, just like you pointed out, skepticism around his integrity and believability in being clean as there are with professionals who are either incredibly successful or have been busted. 

curiously, what about those who are successful and yet wait until their retirement to disclose the truth? It would be interesting to discuss why someone might do that especially when they have a continued stake in the cycling world - the lion king might be a good example

maybe it is the media sensationalism, maybe it is our culture. Ever since we landed on this continent we have been stringing people up and callously stripping them of their dignity for offenses ( not crimes ) that don't adhere to what we at any given moment deem as acceptable to our social culture. And it has rarely yielded any good

doping in cycling is not a crime. Against the rules yes but like you said, you can't equate it to being criminal even if it shares many characteristics of criminal behavior. And it does. 

I think that is your point, that like criminals there is a certain stigma, an air of association that frowns on the offender and like criminals there is the weighing of getting away with it and getting caught - a similar thinking process and moral compass that might make you pause and question their sincerity. That sounds pretty normal to me, to have that concern or hesitation around people who have engaged in a form of fraud basically

how easily and quickly we sell ourselves down that river for a little edge or to excuse hard work and end up wearing a dark halo 

Life being sequential 

We have all had to endure the hardness and stoicism that sometimes accompanies poor choices. To lie in the bed we make. And we have all had to strike a match and go start anew

How do you measure offenses that don't fall into the category of criminal? I would suggest that it is a hearty part of our society that believes it is more important to be right than be cordial or understanding. That is every individuals choice though and will like you said limit or gain their new opportunities and life experiences 

That influences our judiciousness though when making decisions and the lengths at which we are willing to go to permit redemption or allow an individual to continue pursuing their life without having to continually pay for what amounts to an error in judgment. That error in judgment not being criminal, usually as in this case costs the perpetrator more than any damage done. I think this is why divorce rates are what they are 

We have come a long way in a short time as a species and acquired an ease in lifestyle that required little discipline to attain. This is compounded by the fact our biology hasn't evolved enough yet to employ a powerful cognitive base that can balance our emotional roller coasters.

We remain unapologetic and uncompromising as our emotions shout down reason. No willingness to want to comprehend what we passionately disagree with yet we tout our merits as a City Upon The Hill and all that encompasses such a claim

Tenderness and acceptance will have much better gains than petulant recourse to minor infractions. 

My wife recently told me that what she loves best about our relationship, what separates it from her previous experiences, is that I accept her for what she isn't and what she is, that she need not worry about living up to some idea of who she should be or how she should be but that she is free to decide that for herself on a regular basis. When she does feel she has made a poor choice regarding something in her life, it's OK!! it isn't inflamed, no one is keeping score, she isn't judged, etc 

We all have a lot of water under the bridge yet as Bob Dylan said "the walls of pride remain high and wide so you can't see over to the other side"

anyway I hope this makes some sense as I am writing this between other activities so I hope it ends up less convoluted than I think it is

all the best


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