# Armstrong at SuperFrog Triathlon



## PinarelloGirl (Aug 26, 2012)

Lance Armstrong has publicized that he wants to participate in the September 30 SuperFrog triathlon and compete against a group of Navy Seals. 

The SuperFrog organization's decision to extend an invitation to Lance Armstrong (a liar and cheat) makes a mockery of the men and women who abide by the core values of the US Navy -- one of the values being "honor," which involves service men and women conducting themselves in an ethical manner.* 

Two thumbs down to SuperFrog for valuing celebrity over ethics.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Well good chance he wouldn't be the only one there doped up on something.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Frankly I thought it was lame that Leadville welcomed him this year.

It's depressing to me. People claim that they want clean sport. Fairness. Honor.

But when it comes down to it, they just want publicity and money.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well good chance he wouldn't be the only one there doped up on something.


Not surprising, it appears from looking at the USADA website that no U.S. triathlete has ever tested positive!


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Well, if no triathlete has ever tested positive, they must all be doping like LA:smilewinkgrin:


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Addict07 said:


> Not surprising, it appears from looking at the USADA website that no U.S. triathlete has ever tested positive!


Over at Slowtwitch there's a thread going on about OOC testing and the like in triathlon. Might as well be cycling pre-WADA. For Armstrong it had to be like a kid in a candy shop. No wonder his times were improving at a remarkable rate over the last few months. 

If he was allowed to continue unchecked I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised if he'd won Kona, or at least been on the podium, even at his relatively advanced age.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

David Loving said:


> Well, if no triathlete has ever tested positive, they must all be doping like LA:smilewinkgrin:


More likely, they must all be "clean" like him:thumbsup:


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

PinarelloGirl said:


> Lance Armstrong has publicized that he wants to participate in the September 30 SuperFrog triathlon and compete against a group of Navy Seals.
> 
> The SuperFrog organization's decision to extend an invitation to Lance Armstrong (a liar and cheat) makes a mockery of the men and women who abide by the core values of the US Navy -- one of the values being "honor," which involves service men and women conducting themselves in an ethical manner.*
> 
> Two thumbs down to SuperFrog for valuing celebrity over ethics.


I'm sure the SEALS are reeling after receiving two thumbs down. I really doubt anyone in that organization cares about the charges. Lance was a triathlete before his road racing career and the SEALS respect that.


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## PinarelloGirl (Aug 26, 2012)

bigbill said:


> I'm sure the SEALS are reeling after receiving two thumbs down. I really doubt anyone in that organization cares about the charges. Lance was a triathlete before his road racing career and the SEALS respect that.


You may be right. Contrary to the Navy SEALS organization that maintains "uncompromising integrity is the standard, and character and honor are steadfast," it would make sense that SEALS would "respect" a liar and cheat such as Lance Armstrong.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

PinarelloGirl said:


> You may be right. Contrary to the Navy SEALS organization that maintains "uncompromising integrity is the standard, and character and honor are steadfast," it would make sense that SEALS would "respect" a liar and cheat such as Lance Armstrong.


Liar and a cheat based on all the USADA drug tests he failed?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

bigbill said:


> Liar and a cheat based on all the USADA drug tests he failed?


Exactly, now you're getting it. There's more positives coming out all the time


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

bigbill said:


> Liar and a cheat based on all the USADA drug tests he failed?


What does this even mean?

There was never a test for autologous blood doping. Same with HGH.

This kind of post just shows how poorly informed some people really are. They just want to buy the myth without any interest in the truth.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

PaxRomana said:


> What does this even mean?
> 
> There was never a test for autologous blood doping. Same with HGH.
> 
> This kind of post just shows how poorly informed some people really are. They just want to buy the myth without any interest in the truth.


I'm not buying a myth, I just want to see the evidence besides the testimony of people who are accused of the same thing. Why single out a person when it's likely the entire sport is tainted. Lance won races and made a tremendous amount of money in endorsements so he is being singled out as the "most dirty". I seriously doubt the SEALs care about that and that was my original point.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbill said:


> I'm not buying a myth, I just want to see the evidence besides the testimony of people who are accused of the same thing. Why single out a person when it's likely the entire sport is tainted. Lance won races and made a tremendous amount of money in endorsements so he is being singled out as the "most dirty". I seriously doubt the SEALs care about that and that was my original point.


Start here, then get back to us. 

Michael Ashenden | NY Velocity - New York bike racing culture, news and events

What do you mean about a "Single out"? Lance was sanctioned along with his doctors and directors. Almost every one Lance's key competitors have been sanctioned. 

Lance clearly broke the rules of the sport. USADA has positives tests, irregular blood values, and direct witness testimony. He is not being singled out.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Are they going to test all special ops guys now?


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Start here, then get back to us.
> 
> Michael Ashenden | NY Velocity - New York bike racing culture, news and events
> 
> ...


I read the link and it was interesting, but I don't feel the need to feed your ego. 

USADA is spending a tremendous amount of money and time to go after a retired athlete. Do you think cycling is clean now or has just found something new and currently undetectable?

Back to my original point, the SEALs don't care.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

bigbill said:


> Back to my original point, the SEALs don't care.


Do _you_ care? You're a military man, are you happy that a high profile section of the armed forces is happy to court a man who is now seriously damaged goods with credibility shrinking on a daily basis?


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

bigbill said:


> I'm sure the SEALS are reeling after receiving two thumbs down. I really doubt anyone in that organization cares about the charges. Lance was a triathlete before his road racing career and the SEALS respect that.


Cheating, bullying and lying, American values worth fighting for and worthy of Seal respect.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bigbill said:


> I read the link and it was interesting, but I don't feel the need to feed your ego.
> 
> USADA is spending a tremendous amount of money and time to go after a retired athlete. Do you think cycling is clean now or has just found something new and currently undetectable?
> 
> Back to my original point, the SEALs don't care.


That's precious that you think you somehow speak for all navy seals in excusing LA's fraud. As someone who works in communications, I'm guessing they'd rather you...not.

Also, it looks like you're about to get your positive LA sample.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

bigbill said:


> I read the link and it was interesting, but I don't feel the need to feed your ego.
> 
> USADA is spending a tremendous amount of money and time to go after a retired athlete. Do you think cycling is clean now or has just found something new and currently undetectable?
> 
> Back to my original point, the SEALs don't care.


I get your original point and don't doubt it. 

But with respect to the statement above about the cost of the investigation, another LA talking point which seems to have taken on mythical proportions, I have seen nothing to indicate that this case is costing an inordinate amount of money over and above what fixed costs an agency like this would be incurring anyway. Also, as has been pointed out over and over, LA may have been retired as a cyclist, but he was/is still competing as a pro triathlete, and USAT is also a signatory to WADA and thus bound by USADA findings.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

sir duke said:


> Do _you_ care? You're a military man, are you happy that a high profile section of the armed forces is happy to court a man who is now seriously damaged goods with credibility shrinking on a daily basis?


Oh, is Gen McChrystal entering the event, too?


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

blackhat said:


> That's precious that you think you somehow speak for all navy seals in excusing LA's fraud. As someone who works in communications, I'm guessing they'd rather you...not.


The SEALs invited him, weird huh? Guess all you want, do you know any SEALs or just what you see in the movies? What say you, precious?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbill said:


> I read the link and it was interesting, but I don't feel the need to feed your ego.
> 
> USADA is spending a tremendous amount of money and time to go after a retired athlete. Do you think cycling is clean now or has just found something new and currently undetectable?
> 
> Back to my original point, the SEALs don't care.


You are confused. 

USADA has spent little. If they went to trial it would have been expensive but Lance gave up

This is about today

Armstrong is currently a licensed professional in a USADA sport (Tri). He owns and runs a Junior team. He also is a principle of a Pro Tour team 
Johan Bruyneel is a current Manager for a ProTour team
Perdro Ceyla is currently employed by a ProTour team
Michele Ferrari admits to coaching over a dozen professional athtletes. CONI has tied him to 70
Luis del Moral owns a clinic in Valencia. He works with multiple riders and tennis players today
Pepe Marti currently works with Alberto Contador. 

Lets stop pretending this is about the past. 

What would the SEALS think about a guy who screws over his teammates? Are they cool with that?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

If I were a SEAL I would have all the finest docs make sure I have every reasonable advantage I could have.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What would the SEALS think about a guy who screws over his teammates? Are they cool with that?


Go find one and ask him. Like I said on a reply to blackhat, they invited him and all of this was going on.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

88 rex said:


> If I were a SEAL I would have all the finest docs make sure I have every reasonable advantage I could have.


They do. This may come as a surprise to some here but the rules of a Professional Athlete are not the same as the Code of Conduct 

If you were a SEAL would you pay off your superiors so they did not give you a Dishonorable Discharge like Lance did with the UCI?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> They do. This may come as a surprise to some here but the rules of a Professional Athlete are not the same as the Code of Conduct
> 
> If you were a SEAL would you pay off your superiors so they did not give you a Dishonorable Discharge like Lance did with the UCI?


Nah. You just publish a book 'anonymously' instead. Nobody is lily-white. Even the US military's elite special forces.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

http://www.azfixed.com/vanilla2/comments.php?DiscussionID=1713



> So one of the guys who I trained with this morning said Lance Armstrong came to visit them on the last day of "Hell Week". Apparently he brought a camera crew and it was all for some TV show or something. Well this company of SEAL recruits just spent 4 days being physically torchered and moving non-stop with only a combined 4 hours of sleep for the week. They are wet, their skin is rubbed raw by the sand in their cammies, and they could give a **** about Lance Armstrong and would just like to collapse in a heap. Well Lance comes out and runs the 'O course' (an extremely rough obstacle course), stopping for photos and smiling the whole way. The recruits didn't think there was anything funny or cute about this, and were a little offended by his clean look.
> 
> Later Lance essentially gets up and gives them a "motivational speech", comparing the Tour de France with BUD/s training. Well, the tour may be 3 weeks, but BUD/s is 16-hour days of non-stop torture for 6 months. There is a 75% attrition rate. But he gets up and gives this mundane motivational speech and all the guys have a 'piss off' attitude.
> 
> ...


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bigbill said:


> The SEALs invited him, weird huh? Guess all you want, do you know any SEALs or just what you see in the movies? What say you, precious?


I do, but I wouldn't presume to speak for him (let alone his entire ilk) publicly.

You said this:
<blockquote>
I'm sure the SEALS are reeling after receiving two thumbs down. I really doubt <b>anyone in that organization</b> cares about the charges. Lance was a triathlete before his road racing career and the SEALS respect that. 
</blockquote>

Just like any other group of people, I'm sure there are dead-enders that hold true to the thought that LA didn't dope (yourself as evidence, I surmise). I'd hesitate to make a monolith of them though.


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## PinarelloGirl (Aug 26, 2012)

I read the story and couldn't help thinking that the comment that the guy made about "no balls" in reference to Lance Armstrong could also apply to the SuperFrog RD. Given all the interviews the RD is giving, he appears so enamored with Lance's celebrity, he can't see straight.


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm still a fan of Lance. It doesn't matter to me about the doping. I'd be happy to watch him compete in any sporting event because he is and all-time great athlete.

I can't believe how bitter some of you are even after Lance has let go of his victories. The man has a long life ahead of him and, most likely, he will continue to be a prominent and inspirational figure in the fight against cancer. Let go of your hate.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

David Loving said:


> Oh, is Gen McChrystal entering the event, too?


Really generous of you to do BigBill's talking for him...


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Rolando said:


> I'm still a fan of Lance. It doesn't matter to me about the doping. I'd be happy to watch him compete in any sporting event because he is and all-time great athlete.
> 
> I can't believe how bitter some of you are even after Lance has let go of his victories. The man has a long life ahead of him and, most likely, he will continue to be a prominent and inspirational figure in the fight against cancer. Let go of your hate.


He let go of his victories?! Hardly. He was stripped of them involuntarily, and has been maintaining they are still his ever since.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

blackhat said:


> I do, but I wouldn't presume to speak for him (let alone his entire ilk) publicly.
> 
> You said this:
> <blockquote>
> ...


This is flying right over your head. The SEALs invited him knowing the allegations. It's not about denial that he doped, it's about wanting LA at their event.


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

Addict07 said:


> He let go of his victories?! Hardly. He was stripped of them involuntarily, and has been maintaining they are still his ever since.


No, he stopped fighting his case and let go of the victories as far as the official record is concerned. Of course, he rightfully continues to claim that he won those races. If he didn't win them, then who did? He sure a hell finished in the least amount of time. It is clear that all of the other contenders had access to and used the same dope as he did. The whole peloton was doped.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Rolando said:


> No, he stopped fighting his case and let go of the victories as far as the official record is concerned. Of course, he rightfully continues to claim that he won those races. If he didn't win them, then who did? He sure a hell finished in the least amount of time. It is clear that all of the other contenders had access to and used the same dope as he did. The whole peloton was doped.


Did the whole Peloton pay off the UCI? 

Are Ben Johnson and Marion Jones Olympic Gold Medalists? How about Tyler Hamilton? Rosie Ruiz finished the the Boston Marathon in the least amount of time so she must have won.

Armstrong gave up because the evidence was overwhelming


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bigbill said:


> This is flying right over your head. The SEALs invited him knowing the allegations. It's not about denial that he doped, it's about wanting LA at their event.


<blockquote>"Liar and a cheat based on all the USADA drug tests he failed? "</blockquote>
<blockquote>"I'm not buying a myth, I just want to see the evidence besides the testimony of people who are accused of the same thing. Why single out a person when it's likely the entire sport is tainted. Lance won races and made a tremendous amount of money in endorsements so he is being singled out as the "most dirty". I seriously doubt the SEALs care about that and that was my original point. "</blockquote>

That didn't fly "right over my head". As I said, I'm sure there are dead-enders such as yourself in any subpopulation--including the seals. Whether they're the majority and whether they'll be comfortable with his presence at the end of the month when more chips have fallen I wouldn't deign to guess.

Further, they invited him in June. June. As in before LA "quit fighting" to spend time with his family or something. And, again, before USADA's case is public. 

"Armstrong’s intentions of racing aren’t necessarily out of left field as the race offered an invitation to him back on June 20, before he had decided not to fight the USADA charges."

“We’d simply like to abide by the principle that Lance is innocent until proven guilty,” SuperFrog Race Director Mitch Hall said in a press release back in June.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

Rolando said:


> No, he stopped fighting his case and let go of the victories as far as the official record is concerned. Of course, he rightfully continues to claim that he won those races. If he didn't win them, then who did? He sure a hell finished in the least amount of time. It is clear that all of the other contenders had access to and used the same dope as he did. The whole peloton was doped.


Using this logic, any athlete who has ever won an event, but was then found to have cheated in some way and subsequently stripped of the victory is still the rightful winner of that event, provided that they continue to adamantly deny any wrongdoing. Did I get it right?


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

piano said:


> Using this logic, any athlete who has ever won an event, but was then found to have cheated in some way and subsequently stripped of the victory is still the rightful winner of that event, provided that they continue to adamantly deny any wrongdoing. Did I get it right?


Nope.

He won because he actually didn't cheat. He played by the rules. To be in the pro peloton before, during, and after Armstrongs era, you had to dope. That's rule #1. Either accept that or give up on your dream of being a pro cyclist.

I wonder if the USADA will continue down the list of pro cyclists who are long since retired and re-test all their samples and get their teammates to testify against them. They probably won't because they got their man. They proved thier point: Armstrong doped. Congratulations! They must feel like real heroes now. Instead of confirming that the whole peloton was doped (THE TRUTH) they give the false impression that only a few "cheaters" did.:thumbsup:

No, Armstrong obeyed the rules of the peloton and very often "The Boss" had to enforce them too. Many cyclist were able to earn more money because of the fame and legend of Lance Armstrong. Cycling in general become more popular especially in the States because of Lance.

You should all be thankful. God Bless America and the US Postal Service.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

piano said:


> Using this logic, any athlete who has ever won an event, but was then found to have cheated in some way and subsequently stripped of the victory is still the rightful winner of that event, provided that they continue to adamantly deny any wrongdoing. Did I get it right?


I am sure Floyd and Alberto are checking their mailboxes daily in anticipation of the return of their titles using the prior poster's logical gem. Even Riccardo Ricco might want to get in on this action and reclaim some stages. Hold on a sec, what's that you say...it only applies to St. Lance?! OK, now I get it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Rolando said:


> Nope.
> 
> He won because he actually didn't cheat. He played by the rules. To be in the pro peloton before, during, and after Armstrongs era, you had to dope. That's rule #1. Either accept that or give up on your dream of being a pro cyclist.
> 
> ...


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Rolando said:


> Nope.
> 
> He won because he actually didn't cheat. He played by the rules. To be in the pro peloton before, during, and after Armstrongs era, you had to dope. That's rule #1. Either accept that or give up on your dream of being a pro cyclist.
> 
> ...


Could you point out the part in the rules about paying off the UCI? 

Thanks:thumbsup:


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Could you point out the part in the rules about paying off the UCI?
> 
> Thanks:thumbsup:


Lance has always been generous. 

Has that been proven, by the way? Is that part ot the current case against him or are you just putting 2 and 2 together?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Rolando said:


> Lance has always been generous.
> 
> Has that been proven, by the way? Is that part ot the current case against him or are you just putting 2 and 2 together?


Yes, it is part of the case and it is why the UCI has ignored the rules they signed up for and are fighting hard to stop it. 

Lance bragged about this to multiple teammates over the years, I know of at least 4. 

regardless of his willingness to corrupt the sport there was never a level playing field. Doping does not effect each ride the same, if varies greatly from rider to rider. For over a decade the sport was dominated by riders who could afford the best program and responded best to dope.


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yes, it is part of the case and it is why the UCI has ignored the rules they signed up for and are fighting hard to stop it.
> 
> Lance bragged about this to multiple teammates over the years, I know of at least 4.
> 
> regardless of his willingness to corrupt the sport there was never a level playing field. Doping does not effect each ride the same, if varies greatly from rider to rider. For over a decade the sport was dominated by riders who could afford the best program and responded best to dope.


So the same clowns (UCI) that were happy to take money from Lance are now the decision makers regarding whether he gets to officially keep his victories. The circus continues.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Rolando said:


> Nope.
> 
> He won because he actually didn't cheat. He played by the rules. To be in the pro peloton before, during, and after Armstrongs era, you had to dope. That's rule #1. Either accept that or give up on your dream of being a pro cyclist.
> 
> ...


Sorry, there aren't two sets of rules. But congratulations on being the first of his supporters on here to admit he doped but that it was OK to do so under the parallel universe rules as ratified by the peloton. I don't know about you, but for most of us around first grade we learned, "just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it right." A lot has changed in our society over the years, but this has not.

Yes, many in the peloton doped...and everyone knew it was wrong, knew it was a risk, and knew if they got caught, there would be penalties. Look at all the big names sanctioned in recent years...Basso, Valverde, Vino, Ullrich, Floyd, Contador, etc etc etc. This isn't the authorities going after only Lance. He is only unique in that it took a little longer.

And yes USADA will continue going after drug cheats because that's what they do for a living. Lance had his chance, he could have cooperated but chose to stonewall. They have even said they would consider reducing his penalty iin the future if he changes his mind. I doubt we'll see him do anything along these lines.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Rolando said:


> So the same clowns (UCI) that were happy to take money from Lance are now the decision makers regarding whether he gets to officially keep his victories. The circus continues.


Nope. If the UCI does not sanction them they will be taken to CAS and they will lose. 

If the UCI is smart they will start following the rules. USADA has way to much evidence of their preferential treatment of Lance. If they continue down this path they will be decapitated.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

bigbill said:


> I'm not buying a myth, I just want to see the evidence besides the testimony of people who are accused of the same thing. Why single out a person when it's likely the entire sport is tainted. Lance won races and made a tremendous amount of money in endorsements so he is being singled out as the "most dirty". I seriously doubt the SEALs care about that and that was my original point.


Quit being stubborn and believing that these people speaking out against Lance Armstrong are just jealous and that there's some vast conspiracy the USADA got sucked into to ruin Lance Armstrong. It's silly. You have Lance's personal assistant of two years finding steroids. You have eye-witness accounts... Oh yes and there are 6 positive tests as a matter of fact... And don't forget that there exists no tests to prove you've transfused your own blood, there are only indicators of it and Lance's 2009 tests indicate blood transfusions (high hemoglobin). And don't forget he allegedly beat a peloton full of doped up riders while he was clean. Bullshit. We're all human here... No way a rider has some crazy genetic gift to overcome PED's... Not to mention, those with also great genetics who ALSO use/used PED's.

Sure, all these things can be explained away but one right after the other starts adding up. Stop being so stubborn. You Lance fans are really not engaging your brains.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

bigbill said:


> I read the link and it was interesting, but I don't feel the need to feed your ego.
> 
> USADA is spending a tremendous amount of money and time to go after a retired athlete. Do you think cycling is clean now or has just found something new and currently undetectable?
> 
> Back to my original point, the SEALs don't care.



You have no idea what USADA is going after do you? Lance is the figurehead of this entire ordeal. The implications are far more reaching than Lance Armstrong's titles. The USADA is on the cusp of potentially finding out how athletes buck the system, whether the UCI is/was in on it and in general, just exposing the drug practices within the sport. These are positive steps towards making cheating increasingly more difficult.


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Rolando said:


> I'm still a fan of Lance. It doesn't matter to me about the doping. I'd be happy to watch him compete in any sporting event because he is and all-time great athlete.
> 
> I can't believe how bitter some of you are even after Lance has let go of his victories. The man has a long life ahead of him and, most likely, he will continue to be a prominent and inspirational figure in the fight against cancer. Let go of your hate.


Let get of your bromance. There's nothing there to love... Outside of his doped up cycling career... He's a shitty family man, and according to those closest to him is a genuine ******* with no integrity.

There's a lot more people in the world that deserve the respect.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> http://www.azfixed.com/vanilla2/comments.php?DiscussionID=1713


"So one of the guys who I trained with this morning said..." :skep:

dang...that quote is from '08!


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Rolando said:


> No, he stopped fighting his case and let go of the victories as far as the official record is concerned. Of course, he rightfully continues to claim that he won those races. If he didn't win them, then who did? He sure a hell finished in the least amount of time. It is clear that all of the other contenders had access to and used the same dope as he did. The whole peloton was doped.


Yes, and all dope, doping methods and all riders have equal access to the dope, correct?


Incorrect. Your insinuation about the peloton being a level, fair and equally doped up field is faulty.

Next.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Start here, then get back to us.
> 
> Michael Ashenden | NY Velocity - New York bike racing culture, news and events
> 
> ...


I think it is fairly obvious that the general public has accepted LA's career and his exploits during his biking career and just don't care that much about it. If the Seals want to invite him to compete against their best so be it. He is not banned from all competition just from USADA controlled events at this time. We'll see what the final UCI decision is. 
The verdict is in from USADA. They've given him his sanction, taken away his career results, all but stripped him from the USADA record books, other than whatever companies are going to go after him if he had a no doping component of his endorsement contract, it is over, and people are still beating on him. I always thought this defense was a little lame on LA's part, but it does seem like certain people do single him out. News flash.... his life is going to go on. I'm sure he will continue to get invites to compete in events which are open to his participation. I'm also sure the outcome for some of those people who do single him out will not be the exactly what they expected.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You are confused.
> 
> USADA has spent little. If they went to trial it would have been expensive but Lance gave up
> 
> ...


As I understand it LA's ban is on competition not on team ownership. Also he has not been a licensed Tri athlete for a few weeks (we're talking about today right)
Brunyell has not been sanctioned yet and his employer has chosen not to fire him at this time.
De Moral owns a clinic in Valencia.... how is that bad? USADA banned him and he still operates a his clinic? Weird?. His clients choose to come to him, he does not force them to.
Marti is working with Contador? Once again Conti chooses to work with him, Marti doesn't have a gun to his head. What does that say about Conti?
Ferrari works with athletes? No say it isn't so. Until CONI or other ADA's impose serious long term bans on those caught consulting with him, he will continue to give "training" advice to athletes.

Also, as I see it, LA's teammates were there because they wanted to be. No one told them they had to dope. His teammates made their decisions based on what they wanted in their careers. From what I've read it seems like he just expected a high level of performance from his teammates and it was only after they were no longer teammates that he came down on them.

Confused? I believe USADA has spent more than you think on this case. Hopefully those costs will be available to us as well as any of LA's test results.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> azfixed.com - Lance Armstrong mocks the Navy SEALS.


If those SEALs kept up their BUDS training for several years, instead of just a few months, they might just have a shot of being able to simply complete the TdF without dropping out or missing the time cuts. Good for them!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

SicBith said:


> As I understand it LA's ban is on competition not on team ownership. Also he has not been a licensed Tri athlete for a few weeks (we're talking about today right)
> Brunyell has not been sanctioned yet and his employer has chosen not to fire him at this time.
> De Moral owns a clinic in Valencia.... how is that bad? USADA banned him and he still operates a his clinic? Weird?. His clients choose to come to him, he does not force them to.
> Marti is working with Contador? Once again Conti chooses to work with him, Marti doesn't have a gun to his head. What does that say about Conti?
> ...


The ban includes team ownership and management

del Moral works with several tennis players. The ITF said publicly they recognize USADA's ban and that no tennis player should work with him. 

Losing customers is the least of Ferrari's concerns. He is looking at long stay in jail. 

The UCI is not the last word. CAS is. They may try to create more confusion but given the evidence of Hein and Pat's actions that will be coming out they would be stupid to push it that far. 

Ultimately it comes back to this, the sanctioning of Armstrong and his co-conspirators is about targeting people active in sport today. Pretending is all about stuff that happened 14 years ago is absurd


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

PinarelloGirl said:


> You may be right. Contrary to the Navy SEALS organization that maintains "uncompromising integrity is the standard, and character and honor are steadfast," it would make sense that SEALS would "respect" a liar and cheat such as Lance Armstrong.


Umm jut so you know. I worked with the Special Ops community and at one point, before I decided not to extend my enlistment had a slot for Green Beret Selection course (MANY moons ago). Many would never pass regular USADA drug testing. So I really don't think they would care even if they did believe it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Rolando said:


> Nope.
> 
> He won because he actually didn't cheat. He played by the rules. To be in the pro peloton before, during, and after Armstrongs era, you had to dope. That's rule #1. Either accept that or give up on your dream of being a pro cyclist.
> 
> ...





badge118 said:


> Umm jut so you know. I worked with the Special Ops community and at one point, before I decided not to extend my enlistment had a slot for Green Beret Selection course (MANY moons ago). Many would never pass regular USADA drug testing. So I really don't think they would care even if they did believe it.


seals are required to sign the WADA rules? man that takes ethical war fare to a whole new level.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

misplaced post.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

blackhat said:


> <blockquote>"Liar and a cheat based on all the USADA drug tests he failed? "</blockquote>
> <blockquote>"I'm not buying a myth, I just want to see the evidence besides the testimony of people who are accused of the same thing. Why single out a person when it's likely the entire sport is tainted. Lance won races and made a tremendous amount of money in endorsements so he is being singled out as the "most dirty". I seriously doubt the SEALs care about that and that was my original point. "</blockquote>
> 
> That didn't fly "right over my head". As I said, I'm sure there are dead-enders such as yourself in any subpopulation--including the seals. Whether they're the majority and whether they'll be comfortable with his presence at the end of the month when more chips have fallen I wouldn't deign to guess.
> ...


Lance deciding not to fight the USADA charges and let it go to the UCI is an admission of guilt? Have they rescinded the invitation? What's a dead-ender, someone who wants to see the evidence instead of waiting for the public trial in the media? I could care less what happens to Lance but his presence at the Tri will bring the crowds and help raise money for worthy causes.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

MaddSkillz said:


> Quit being stubborn and believing that these people speaking out against Lance Armstrong are just jealous and that there's some vast conspiracy the USADA got sucked into to ruin Lance Armstrong. It's silly. You have Lance's personal assistant of two years finding steroids. You have eye-witness accounts... Oh yes and there are 6 positive tests as a matter of fact... And don't forget that there exists no tests to prove you've transfused your own blood, there are only indicators of it and Lance's 2009 tests indicate blood transfusions (high hemoglobin). And don't forget he allegedly beat a peloton full of doped up riders while he was clean. Bullshit. We're all human here... No way a rider has some crazy genetic gift to overcome PED's... Not to mention, those with also great genetics who ALSO use/used PED's.
> 
> Sure, all these things can be explained away but one right after the other starts adding up. Stop being so stubborn. You Lance fans are really not engaging your brains.


Don't put your own spin on my posts. I've said nothing about jealous people speaking out or a vast conspiracy. If you want to say those things, make your own post not linked to mine. I have the right to be as stubborn as I want to and your opinion or spin on my statements means you had some time to waste at work.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

badge118 said:


> Umm jut so you know. I worked with the Special Ops community and at one point, before I decided not to extend my enlistment had a slot for Green Beret Selection course (MANY moons ago). Many would never pass regular USADA drug testing. So I really don't think they would care even if they did believe it.


Wow; That's new to me. Interesting.


I remember talking with UDT/SEAL's in my neighborhood back in the early '70's in Norfolk, VA. I was elementary school age and were friends with their sons. Pretty interesting group of Navy personnel.



And thanks for serving in our military :thumbsup: !


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

bigbill said:


> Don't put your own spin on my posts. I've said nothing about jealous people speaking out or a vast conspiracy. If you want to say those things, make your own post not linked to mine. I have the right to be as stubborn as I want to and your opinion or spin on my statements means you had some time to waste at work.


If you believe Lance is innocent you have to believe in a conspiracy against him. You can't have one without the other. So please, explain your conspiracy theory as to who has enough power to manipulate an organization such as USADA and also how all these ex-teammates that would testify against him... What would be in it for them? 

You have to have a pretty elaborate theory. I want to hear it.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

The Army was probably the best experience I had in my life BUT at the time I was in I just didn't want to do another 8 year commitment (which is what selection would have cost me).

That said the excuse that cyclists use, how hard it is, actually applies to special operations teams. Now this was in the early 90's but here is an article http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0809/p01s04-usmi.html where in the 2nd gulf war and Afghanistan the Pentagon was even doing official research (though the study there was about stimulants with pilots).

Even when I was just a 19D Scout, 24 hours without sleep during an operation was not unusual. All the gear you may have to hump, if you are operating without vehicles, it makes you look for an edge. I'll be honest, I actually by the rationalization in that case as long as it is being used safely and intelligently. There is to my mind a HUGE difference between trying to win a race and get a bigger check and saving your life and the life of the cat next to you.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

den bakker said:


> seals are required to sign the WADA rules? man that takes ethical war fare to a whole new level.


No but the point is that many of them use things that are using the same substances and the attitude of a soldier is "there is no such thing as a fair fight." I am not justifying Armstrong's use of PEDs, just saying that many would not give a damn because of the attitude and just like they rationalize going on a cycle (which is technically against regs so it is not dissimilar to Armstrong breaking WADA rules) they would easily rationalize this as well. 

Heck amphetamines were officially tested by flight surgeons on pilots during the 2000's and everything I have heard from people still in says that the practice is actually in some types of duty being monitored by Doctors just like some of the cases we see in sports now. If you are in one of these special duty assignments you are given a pass on the random drug tests for the specific substances, even if your standard infantryman gets busted.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bigbill said:


> Lance deciding not to fight the USADA charges and let it go to the UCI is an admission of guilt? Have they rescinded the invitation? What's a dead-ender, someone who wants to see the evidence instead of waiting for the public trial in the media? I could care less what happens to Lance but his presence at the Tri will bring the crowds and help raise money for worthy causes.


Yes, it's the relative equivalent of a default judgement. If someone sues me for ____ and I decide that for whatever absurd reason he did that running was more advantageous than defending myself, it's not my right to continue to insist I'm not responsible for that allegation. I lost that when I chose not to answer to it through the pre-agreed avenue. 

To your other questions, wait and see what happens when USADA releases their report. I would hope that once the case is public and those that aren't swayed by multiple direct witnesses see whatever additional evidence there is, that the seals will have the respect for their own institution to not invite a demonstrated fraud.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Where have I said that Lance is innocent? As far as conspiracy theories, I don't have one. He hasn't failed a test, USADA had to dig into the past to find anything questionable and is now looking at it. 

So here are the issues if Lance doped: 
USADA is ineffective and failed to detect it.
UCI is ineffective and failed to detect and/or report it.
The people testifying are doing so in self defense and didn't say something when it was happening. No credibility if they wait years later to testify. 
Lance is singled out as the worst offender while the remaining offenders continue to make a living in cycling based on fame gained while doping. 
No one outside of cycling cares.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

badge118 said:


> Umm jut so you know. I worked with the Special Ops community and at one point, before I decided not to extend my enlistment had a slot for Green Beret Selection course (MANY moons ago). Many would never pass regular USADA drug testing. So I really don't think they would care even if they did believe it.


I was trying to figure out how to say this without making peoples heads explode on this forum. Special Ops runs on adrenaline and sleep deprivation while performing under pressure. They take PEDs to function and recover. They could give a **** whether Lance doped or not to win races. If he doped, he was beating other dopers so his plan was superior.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> They do. This may come as a surprise to some here but the rules of a Professional Athlete are not the same as the Code of Conduct
> 
> If you were a SEAL would you pay off your superiors so they did not give you a Dishonorable Discharge like Lance did with the UCI?


Stick with what you know and don't offend those of us who served.

A drug bust is at worse, a bad conduct discharge. Most of the time it is a administrative separation without benefits. Don't throw around words like Dishonorable Discharge when you don't have a clue what it means or what it takes to get one.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbill said:


> Stick with what you know and don't offend those of us who served.
> 
> A drug bust is at worse, a bad conduct discharge. Most of the time it is a administrative separation without benefits. Don't throw around words like Dishonorable Discharge when you don't have a clue what it means or what it takes to get one.


Nice attempt to twist what I wrote but your false indignation does not do you any favors. 

Lance broke rules that should have had him tossed out of the sport years ago. The UCI did nothing, they ignored it and enabled his actions. What would the military think about someone escaping justice by conspiring with their superiors? 

It is a pretty simple question.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbill said:


> Where have I said that Lance is innocent? As far as conspiracy theories, I don't have one. He hasn't failed a test, USADA had to dig into the past to find anything questionable and is now looking at it.
> 
> So here are the issues if Lance doped:
> USADA is ineffective and failed to detect it.
> ...


Stick with what you know

USADA only tested Armstrong for 2 1/2 years of his 20 year career. The UCI is ineffective, USADA is not. 

USADA has blood samples that are indicative of transfusions and EPO use that are from the 2009 and 2010 season. They have witnesses from these seasons as well. This isn't from 15 years ago

Lance was not singled out. Almost all of his key competitors have been sanctioned. 

The news was front page of the WSJ, NYT, NYDN, NYPost, Newsweek, and on Nightline. Tyler will be on the Today show tomorrow morning. Lets not pretend nobody cares.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nice attempt to twist what I wrote but your false indignation does not do you any favors.
> 
> Lance broke rules that should have had him tossed out of the sport years ago. The UCI did nothing, they ignored it and enabled his actions. What would the military think about someone escaping justice by conspiring with their superiors?
> 
> It is a pretty simple question.


This is the easiest forum ever. I get to call you on your bullshit and you get indignant. Thanks for all the entertainment, your legend precedes you.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Stick with what you know
> 
> USADA only tested Armstrong for 2 1/2 years of his 20 year career. The UCI is ineffective, USADA is not.
> 
> ...


Then USADA should take away all his victories from 2009 and 2010 and give him a ban. That should sting. 

Are his competitors testifying against him?


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

Ummm, wait a minute. Where oh WHERE are the voices of all of those competitors that Lance cheated against now? He robbed them of thier victories right? All I hear is crickets.

One would think there would be some celebration of some sort. Maybe the "real winners" are just shy. :idea:

Or maybe Lance won all those races. Doping or not.


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

MaddSkillz said:


> Let get of your bromance. There's nothing there to love... Outside of his doped up cycling career... He's a shitty family man, and according to those closest to him is a genuine ******* with no integrity.
> 
> There's a lot more people in the world that deserve the respect.


Sorrry, I remain a fan of the man. You know why? Because I was never under the illusion that these guys were racing clean.

Also, I know and care nothing about his family life or Lance's personality.

Ciao,
Rolando


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Rolando said:


>


Ah! About ten seconds after 'The look' :thumbsup: .



Thanks for sharing!


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## Rolando (Jan 13, 2005)

cda 455 said:


> Ah! About ten seconds after 'The look' :thumbsup: .
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing!


I'm going to edit and add The Look.....Thanks for mentioning it.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nice attempt to twist what I wrote but your false indignation does not do you any favors.
> 
> Lance broke rules that should have had him tossed out of the sport years ago. The UCI did nothing, they ignored it and enabled his actions. What would the military think about someone escaping justice by conspiring with their superiors?
> 
> It is a pretty simple question.


Well technically that is what the special ops community does now. The PEDs that are being used are often being used are technically against military regs and if someone not in one of the special duty slots tests positive they are subject to disciplinary action. However whether it is the case like the CS article I linked where it is being officially sanctioned and tested or simply a chain if command bending the rules, it is being done in a manner not completely dissimilar to what is alleged. The rules say it's wrong BUT, the chain of command (USPS) and the governing body (Dept. of the Army, Navy, Air Force, whatever) is allowing it to happen. In the first case it is about winning races and money (not a good reason) in my mind. In the other it is about winning battles and saving lives (a good reason in my mind). But if you want to be a purist and say that using PEDS period and bending rules period is bad and there is no rationalization... the Military is just as bad as Armstrong.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

bigbill said:


> Then USADA should take away all his victories from 2009 and 2010 and give him a ban. That should sting.
> 
> Are his competitors testifying against him?


No, since that would be hearsay as he undoubtedly never doped in front of them.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Rolando said:


> Ummm, wait a minute. Where oh WHERE are the voices of all of those competitors that Lance cheated against now? He robbed them of thier victories right? All I hear is crickets.
> 
> One would think there would be some celebration of some sort. Maybe the "real winners" are just shy. :idea:
> 
> Or maybe Lance won all those races. Doping or not.


The guys who were his competitors at the time were all dopers as well, difference being that most of them have already been sanctioned and had to deal with the consequences and moved on. Why would anyone who was basically found out to be a fraud willingly bring themselves back into that spotlight?

Nobody is saying Lance didn't finish first in all those races. Floyd and Contador finished first in theirs as well. But if it turns out later you were doping, you broke the rules and it doesn't count. End of story.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Rolando said:


> Ummm, wait a minute. Where oh WHERE are the voices of all of those competitors that Lance cheated against now? He robbed them of thier victories right? All I hear is crickets.
> 
> One would think there would be some celebration of some sort. Maybe the "real winners" are just shy. :idea:
> 
> Or maybe Lance won all those races. Doping or not.


So doing sanctions should be decided by if the dopers who finished 2nd complain? Really? Should we also include a fan vote?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

badge118 said:


> Well technically that is what the special ops community does now. The PEDs that are being used are often being used are technically against military regs and if someone not in one of the special duty slots tests positive they are subject to disciplinary action. However whether it is the case like the CS article I linked where it is being officially sanctioned and tested or simply a chain if command bending the rules, it is being done in a manner not completely dissimilar to what is alleged. The rules say it's wrong BUT, the chain of command (USPS) and the governing body (Dept. of the Army, Navy, Air Force, whatever) is allowing it to happen. In the first case it is about winning races and money (not a good reason) in my mind. In the other it is about winning battles and saving lives (a good reason in my mind). But if you want to be a purist and say that using PEDS period and bending rules period is bad and there is no rationalization... the Military is just as bad as Armstrong.


Nope, the rules allow for SEALS to use amphetamine, They get them directly from the militarily. They can also get HGH and Testosterone. 

Regardless, I doubt any of them would have an issue with lance's doping. Paying off the UCI in order to avoid sanction is something most rational people would have a problem with.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

bigbill said:


> This is the easiest forum ever. I get to call you on your bullshit and you get indignant. Thanks for all the entertainment, your legend precedes you.


Thanks for proving my point. Instead of addressing the topic you resort to an ad hominem


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope, the rules allow for SEALS to use amphetamine, They get them directly from the militarily. They can also get HGH and Testosterone.
> 
> Regardless, I doubt any of them would have an issue with lance's doping. Paying off the UCI in order to avoid sanction is something most rational people would have a problem with.


See I don't think it was a pay off, I think the testing machine was a "see I care" PR stunt in the event other stuff came out. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one and I think the UCI's complicity/blinders is the same as MLB during the Bonds home run race.

MLB had lost a lot of money thanks to a work stoppages and pissed off fans. The home run derby put butts back in the seat. After Festina I think the UCI took the wrong lesson. Fans got pissed, revenue was in danger BUT then they find this feel good story of a rider returning from cancer winning the TdF. So they felt, the same as MLB, that doping was going to happen and that there was not a damn thing they could do about it. So they ask 'what can we do to turn a crap situation into a win?" They come up with helping to build the Armstrong myth, whether through active duplicity or simply putting their heads in the sand. It's twisted, based in greed and cynicism, but it's a lot less conspiratorial than taking targeted bribes.

Now I do not think that the financial security and PR of a sport is as vital as combat operations. The use of PEDs in the later is not analogous with the former. That said I really don't think the bribe issue is even in the greater public mindset that the SEALs likely share, let alone is it real as I note above.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Chris-X said:


> You're not familiar with members of Delta being involved in a scandal where they were double dipping on travel expenses?
> 
> This guy straightened it out but a few operators were discharged..
> 
> ...


It isn't semantics. I don't think it was a bribe in terms of "here is money cover my ass." I think it was "you are covering my ass. Now I will buy this gizmo to give me even more ass coverage. This way I can say 'if I was doping why would I buy gizmos that can catch dopers.'" Hell that is precisely what he said when it came out.

It is still all wrong and shady as hell. There was a conspiracy I just think on the UCI end it was about a twisted and cynical view of what was good for the sport's growth in the wake of a scandal rather than mafia like pay offs.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

badge118 said:


> See I don't think it was a pay off,


There is some truth to that. 

Armstrong bragged to teammates how he "Owned" the UCI as early as 1998. They let him off the hook when he tested positive for Cortisone in 1999. When he tested positive for EPO in 2001 he was not concerned at all. Told people it would be taken care of.....and it was. In 2001 Dr Leon Schattenberg from the UCI called Saugy and told him to drop it, the positive was "Going nowhere" it was dropped, it went nowhere. 

There are significant financial ties between Armstrong and Hein Verburggen. At one time there was a financial incentive that developed into mutual interest......today it is all about covering up the obvious


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope, the rules allow for SEALS to use amphetamine, They get them directly from the militarily. They can also get HGH and Testosterone.



Amphetamine was developed during WWII to help military pilots stay alert while on long missions.


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Chris-X said:


> The guy you criticize has been making predictions with like a 99% accuracy for literally years....


I could go back and repost all the missed deadlines and vague innuendo that's been passed off as facts. But it's a thankless task, so I'll just leave it at that. :thumbsup:

what the heck, here's one: I thought Ferrari was going to prison?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

covenant said:


> I could go back and repost all the missed deadlines and vague innuendo that's been passed off as facts. But it's a thankless task, so I'll just leave it at that. :thumbsup:
> 
> what the heck, here's one: I thought Ferrari was going to prison?


You have irrational expectations of the timeliness of the Italian judicial system. 

Don't worry. Just last week they had some nice taped conversations from Ferrari's bugged camper. Why are the Police bugging his camper? To steal training methods? :thumbsup:

http://translate.google.com/transla...g-intercettazioni-inguaiano-ferrari-esclusivo


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

cda 455 said:


> Amphetamine was developed during WWII to help military pilots stay alert while on long missions.


Goes well beyond that. The Germans handed them out quite liberally. One of the methods for making meth in the criminal world is even called "The Nazi Method."


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You have irrational expectations of the timeliness of the Italian judicial system.
> 
> Don't worry. Just last week they had some nice taped conversations from Ferrari's bugged camper. Why are the Police bugging his camper? To steal training methods? :thumbsup:
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...g-intercettazioni-inguaiano-ferrari-esclusivo


I think it's just irrational expectations of Euro systems. He did get a 2 year suspended sentence. Such convictions are not uncommon for "victimless" crimes. Hell the Norwegians just gave someone who killed over 77 people in a terrorist attack the maximum sentence of 25 years. It is a very different world over there. There are arguably fewer protections in the US BUT at the same time usually more lax sentencing.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

badge118 said:


> Heck amphetamines were officially tested by flight surgeons on pilots during the 2000's and everything I have heard from people still in says that the practice is actually in some types of duty being monitored by Doctors just like some of the cases we see in sports now. If you are in one of these special duty assignments you are given a pass on the random drug tests for the specific substances, even if your standard infantryman gets busted.


Spot on. I was in Air Force Special Operations from 1998-2009. Benzadine was giving to us Post September 11 for extended flight operations when needed. During Operation Anaconda, my crew flew 185 hours in 10 days. That is not possible without something keeping you awake, and something putting you to sleep. The military has no issue with PEDs to win a fight. If you were concerned about a fair fight, would you invent things like stealth technology or night vision? You would square up with your enemy and slug away...wait that was the revolutionary war.

I have two cousins who are seals in Virginia. I asked them if the community was regreting the invitation. Both Will and Dan had the same answer. He was invited because he is an American sports hero. If you were hosting a charity softball tournament would you invite Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds if you could get them to come for free?


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## PinarelloGirl (Aug 26, 2012)

bigbill said:


> This is flying right over your head. The SEALs invited him knowing the allegations. It's not about denial that he doped, it's about wanting LA at their event.


Unlike other organizations that uphold Lance Armstrong's ban from competition, SuperFrog and the SEALS continue to associate itself with one of sport's greatest fraud's, Lance Armstrong. It makes a mockery of the SEALS and the US Navy. 

Years ago the US Navy, using taxpayer monies, bought the current SuperFrog Race Director and ex-SEAL a Cervelo after he was discharged so Hill could "help" with recruitment. Now they have Mitch Hall inviting Lance Armstrong and publicizing the cheater's participation at their upcoming event. The US Navy needs to alter it's values and eliminate "uncompromising integrity is my standard." As long as Mitch Hall and the US Navy idolize and publicize their partnership with a doper, cheater and "banned for life" Lance Armstrong - they are no better than he is.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Thanks for proving my point. Instead of addressing the topic you resort to an ad hominem


Are you surprised? He wanders in from P.O. where that kind of cheap and lazy debating is the norm. I put a straightforward question to him earlier in this thread and he goes AWOL. Hope he does better with the 'real 'enemy.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Chris-X said:


> if you're talking about the Navy keeping their actions in line with their rhetoric/propaganda.
> 
> The problem is that the Navy's propaganda is even worse than Armstrong's when considering what it represents and what the actual reality of the situation is.
> 
> ...


This is a tasteless poast.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

I wonder if people who are raging over this miss another important fact. Forget that SEALs and other hard core on the edge people likely give a crap about sports doping just look at American Society. This is the country where the line "winning isn't everything, it is the only thing" was coined. This is the Country where I know from personal experience, parents talk to doctors about meds that might give their high school student that extra edge for the College Scholarship. It is the country where experts say that ADHD is way over diagnosed because, in part, parents need an excuse as to why their kid isn't a straight A student and a pill to fix it because actually parenting their kid takes more effort.

The general public rides Bonds hard because he was an ******* but treat others who did the same thing much more gently because they are nice guys (sound familiar.) 

I bring this up because the alpha male kill or be killed attitude SEALs have is really not that unlike what we saw LA do on the bike or with his team. If the general public new about how military and paramilitary organizations on the edge operated they would think they were full of nothing but *******s. In the real world when a co-worker screws up, you fix it and in a nice way try to make sure it doesn't happen again. If it does then the boss may fire em but you all go to out to dinner and wish em good luck. In these other. groups when someone screws up you fix it and ride the persons ass until they don't do it again, or you all want him to be kicked the hell out without a going away party, rather with a don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

All I can say really is "welcome to the other side."


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

badge118 said:


> I wonder if people who are raging over this miss another important fact. Forget that SEALs and other hard core on the edge people likely give a crap about sports doping just look at American Society. This is the country where the line "winning isn't everything, it is the only thing" was coined. This is the Country where I know from personal experience, parents talk to doctors about meds that might give their high school student that extra edge for the College Scholarship. It is the country where experts say that ADHD is way over diagnosed because, in part, parents need an excuse as to why their kid isn't a straight A student and a pill to fix it because actually parenting their kid takes more effort.
> 
> The general public rides Bonds hard because he was an ******* but treat others who did the same thing much more gently because they are nice guys (sound familiar.)
> 
> ...


You don't get it

I doubt the SEALS care much about doping, but they do care about honor. They like do not know about the UCI payoffs, screwing of teammates, and smearing of those who told the truth


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I doubt the SEALS care much about doping, but they do care about honor. They like do not know about the UCI payoffs, screwing of teammates, and smearing of those who told the truth


Midshipmen are persons of integrity: We stand for that which is right.
We tell the truth and ensure that the full truth is known. We do not lie.
We embrace fairness in all actions. We ensure that work submitted as their own is their own, and that assistance received from any source is authorized and properly documented. We do not cheat.
We respect the property of others and ensure that others are able to benefit from the use of their own property. We do not steal.
—Honor Concept, USNA Brigade Honor Program


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## PinarelloGirl (Aug 26, 2012)

Mitch Hall, SuperFrog RD and former SEAL, is so dazzled by Armstrong's previous celebrity that the truth about UCI payoffs, screwing over of teammates and the smearing of those telling the truth doesn't resonate with him. He can't help it; the RD's enthrallment with Armstrong has gripped him like a vice cutting off any remnant of integrity.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You don't get it
> 
> I doubt the SEALS care much about doping, but they do care about honor. They like do not know about the UCI payoffs, screwing of teammates, and smearing of those who told the truth


Well the screwing of teammates is precisely what I am talking about. It is purely subjective and to an extent you make the point I am trying to express. In a unit if you are not with the program...you are out of the program, backs are turned and people walk away. The same thing happened in LA's teams. 

The pay off thing I already explained how I think it is less nefarious than that. I think it was simply two twisted agendas coming into alignment. As for smearing those who told the truth. The same attitude is what causes the teammate "screwing issue." You are either with is or against us. There is a term used for when people tell the truth and it hurts the team. It's sometimes called throwing your buddies under the bus. The nature of the military fosters a team ethic very much through peer pressure and peer pressure can be a 2 edged sword.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

badge118 said:


> Well the screwing of teammates is precisely what I am talking about. It is purely subjective and to an extent you make the point I am trying to express. In a unit if you are not with the program...you are out of the program, backs are turned and people walk away. The same thing happened in LA's teams.
> 
> The pay off thing I already explained how I think it is less nefarious than that. I think it was simply two twisted agendas coming into alignment. As for smearing those who told the truth. The same attitude is what causes the teammate "screwing issue." You are either with is or against us. There is a term used for when people tell the truth and it hurts the team. It's sometimes called throwing your buddies under the bus.


what is the term if you don't tell anything, deny anything was going on, do your time and then left alone afterwards?


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

den bakker said:


> what is the term if you don't tell anything, deny anything was going on, do your time and then left alone afterwards?


You have finished your time after doing what you did and then you go home? It's called being a veteran.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

badge118 said:


> You have finished your time after doing what you did and then you go home? It's called being a veteran.


sure buddy. whatever helps you throw this.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

den bakker said:


> sure buddy. whatever helps you throw this.


Ask a smart ass question get a smart ass response.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

badge118 said:


> Ask a smart ass question get a smart ass response.


I wouldn't know, but I trust your expertise on the subject.


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

den bakker said:


> I wouldn't know, but I trust your expertise on the subject.


Ahh ad hominem attacks. The last refuge for those with nothing substantive to contribute to a a discussion. Well done sir. The proper response would have been to clarify your rather flippant and vague post so we could make something constructive out of this.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

badge118 said:


> Well the screwing of teammates is precisely what I am talking about. It is purely subjective and to an extent you make the point I am trying to express. In a unit if you are not with the program...you are out of the program, backs are turned and people walk away. The same thing happened in LA's teams.
> 
> The pay off thing I already explained how I think it is less nefarious than that. I think it was simply two twisted agendas coming into alignment. As for smearing those who told the truth. The same attitude is what causes the teammate "screwing issue." You are either with is or against us. There is a term used for when people tell the truth and it hurts the team. It's sometimes called throwing your buddies under the bus. The nature of the military fosters a team ethic very much through peer pressure and peer pressure can be a 2 edged sword.


Got it, You are OK with screwing teammates, covering up positives, and smearing those who told the truth.....What about lying? Is lying ok? :thumbsup:


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Got it, You are OK with screwing teammates, covering up positives, and smearing those who told the truth.....What about lying? Is lying ok? :thumbsup:


For god's sake why does everything have to be voicing a personal opinion? I am keeping with the topic the OP put before us. Why would the SEALs do this....

Screwing teammates is subjective. Is it "screwing" with a team mate if they are a nice guy but aren't producing at a level that you expect? That is what I am referring to. In the outside world if someone meets a minimum standard and is a nice guy it's okay. In military and paramilitary organizations filled with alpha males (and females) meeting a minimum standard doesn't cut it, nice or not. You try peer pressure to get them to up their game and if they don't, your displeasure becomes apparent and if a way to cut the cat loose, the cat would say "screw him", you do it.

As for covering up stuff. In the early 90s a lot of the PEDs use in the community was done with the approval of immediate superiors and regulated by the team medics who are practically Physicians (check out 18D Special Forces Training) even when the regs said no and those immediate superiors covered for it. Getting "random" drug testing dates in advance so cycles could be planned, what stuff was tested for and not etc. Sound familiar? The higher ups knew about it too but turned a blind eye to it. Sound familiar? It was not until later that the military decided to test what would happen if it was officially permitted. 

So even if the community was fully versed in beating drug tests and covering up for it, they would be hypocrites if they raged about it.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

badge118 said:


> For god's sake why does everything have to be voicing a personal opinion? I am keeping with the topic the OP put before us. Why would the SEALs do this....
> 
> Screwing teammates is subjective. Is it "screwing" with a team mate if they are a nice guy but aren't producing at a level that you expect? That is what I am referring to. In the outside world if someone meets a minimum standard and is a nice guy it's okay. In military and paramilitary organizations filled with alpha males (and females) meeting a minimum standard doesn't cut it, nice or not. You try peer pressure to get them to up their game and if they don't, your displeasure becomes apparent and if a way to cut the cat loose, the cat would say "screw him", you do it.
> 
> ...


Um, the lies? It is nice that you are ok with compulsive liars, most are not. 

You can make all the excuses you like but it is clear the UCI gave special treatment to Armstrong that allowed him to cover up his doping. Most are not OK with this. 

You are welcome to pretend that Armstrong is not petty and vindictive, but most who have followed the sport for years know that he is


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

den bakker said:


>



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Um, the lies? It is nice that you are ok with compulsive liars, most are not.
> 
> You can make all the excuses you like but it is clear the UCI gave special treatment to Armstrong that allowed him to cover up his doping. Most are not OK with this.
> 
> You are welcome to pretend that Armstrong is not petty and vindictive, but most who have followed the sport for years know that he is


I am not saying he is no petty and vindictive. As a matter of fact in all of these threads I have said he is. Also I am not saying the UCI was not involved in lies and cover ups. I have said bluntly that they were. My only contention is that the UCI said "this feel good story is good for the sport let it roll" rather than "oh he gave us cash? Let it roll."

If you actually read my post you would see I am talking about a closed Alpha Male society that operates(operated) in much the same way and that this may well be the reason THEY do not care. Not that I personally share these attitudes any long.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

badge118 said:


> I am not saying he is no petty and vindictive. As a matter of fact in all of these threads I have said he is. Also I am not saying the UCI was not involved in lies and cover ups. I have said bluntly that they were. My only contention is that the UCI said "this feel good story is good for the sport let it roll" rather than "oh he gave us cash? Let it roll."
> 
> If you actually read my post you would see I am talking about a closed Alpha Male society that operates(operated) in much the same way and that this may well be the reason THEY do not care. Not that I personally share these attitudes any long.


"operates(operated) in much the same way"

Really? The SEALS are petty, vindictive, liars, who corrupt their superiors in order to cover up their actions? 

Thanks for sharing:thumbsup:


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## badge118 (Dec 26, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> "operates(operated) in much the same way"
> 
> Really? The SEALS are petty, vindictive, liars, who corrupt their superiors in order to cover up their actions?
> 
> Thanks for sharing:thumbsup:


The first bit is subjective. In sport I think the way LA treated people can be seen as petty. That said the same ridiculously high standards that made LA cut lose "dead weight" is to my mind perfectly fine in a situation like the SEAL teams.

As for the last you tell me. Like I said in the 90's this is how it worked in the community. They knew when they would be drug tested and for what (example some steroids were tested for but they did not do the testosterone test that busted Landis. Hell I don't know if that test existed then) and so planned their use around these times to beat the tests. They also often used their team medical staff to make sure the stuff was done safely. 

Did they corrupt their chain of command, or did their chain of command see this as being for the greater good even if it was technically against regulations? If they were interviewed do you think they would have told the truth and gotten themselves and their unit administrative discipline? HELL NO. Hell one has to ask since this was going on long before the Pentagon started officially permitting it, is this permission done because the Pentagon thinks its really a good idea or because they figure they might as well control it since they can't stop it.

The attitude and actions are largely similar. A win at all costs attitude being using to justify breaking the rules. The only difference is the context. One is in sport and one is in war and in the later EVENTUALLY the top of the chain of command decided to get with the under ground program rather than try and stamp it out. 

This is the reality all of your questions dance around. Most people don't look at moral distinctions in context. They don't say "he only stole the food from the market because he needed to eat or feed his family." They say "he stole the food, arrest him." AGAIN regarding the OPs question I think this is a part of what the SEALs don't give a ****. THEY, not me, look at it this way. A) we think LA is getting steam rolled and B) even if he isn't it's about getting and supporting the best team and victory because in the end victory is all that matters.

Oh one other thing. The former SF Major that was my patron in my Infantry Battalion when I was in and helped me get the Selection slot told me a method of figuring things out in certain situations when you did the right thing vs doing things right and they wanted to nail you for it. The idea being that the rules (doing things right) often get in the way of doing the right thing (winning, living and keeping your buddies alive). D.A.M.N. Deny, Analyze courses of action, Make counter accusations, Never ever tell the truth.

So do SEALs, Green Beret's, Delta etc lie. Hell yes. If they told people what it was they did, how they did it and how they got to where they are, your average American would probably write them off as sociopaths. On a LRRP and the little sheperd boy finds your hide? The boy doesn't see mommy again. (Just as an example) Hell there was a lot of out cry over the "speed" use in GW 2 when it hit the press. If the study wasn't involving pilots and was rather limited to the Community we would probably have never even heard about it because that Community is surrounded by a web of lies to the outside world and the chain of command helps weave it.

The only real difference between USPS/UCI and SEAL/Chain of Command is that the later can justify their actions as being a matter of life or death and the former can only use greed.


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