# Pinarello F4:13 Disaster



## arech

F4:13 means: Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."

My PINARELLO F4:13 BROKE and i'm looking for some answers. I'ts hard to accept this from a HIGH QUALITIY ITALIAN FRAME, if are Italian made!

A label into the head tube can be the weak point. But were the QUALITY CONTROL? 
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151449&stc=1&d=1231097369

I try the warranty, but they don't heard me. Specialized, Merdida, Trek offer a great warranty service, but PINARELLO....

The big teams frames are made in ITALY our TAIWAN?...


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## Nimitz

more info on this catasrophic failure? was it an accident? (wet condtions)

or what?

Chad


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## tjjm36m3

Compound fractures on carbon frames are usually a result of a crash. Hope you are ok and don't blame Pinarello for a weak warrenty. You bring a frame like that to Specialized or Trek and see if they would reimburse you.


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## arech

tjjm36m3 said:


> Compound fractures on carbon frames are usually a result of a crash. Hope you are ok and don't blame Pinarello for a weak warrenty. You bring a frame like that to Specialized or Trek and see if they would reimburse you.


The question isn't warranty but security! I buy a high quality frame because i think they are secure! When the frame broke i didn't believe because was a stupid fall. And after i see the label into the head tube, it seems a manufacture failure, that can cost my life!


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## arech

I was racing and deviate a race accident, i didn't lost the control, i was estable but the front road lock, my body was back and made an handspike, the frame broke, and i fell!


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## Nimitz

arech said:


> The question isn't warranty but security! I buy a high quality frame because i think they are secure! When the frame broke i didn't believe because was a stupid fall. And after i see the label into the head tube, it seems a manufacture failure, that can cost my life!


so your blaming the failure on the sticker on the inside of the tube?

and I can see that your first language isn't English but I had a hard time understanding your last post about the accident...

Chad


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## tjjm36m3

arech said:


> I was racing and deviate a race accident, i didn't lost the control, i was estable but the front road lock, my body was back and made an handspike, the frame broke, and i fell!


Sorry I give up. I fail to understand what you are trying to claim even after reading your statement multiple times.


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## arech

tjjm36m3 said:


> Sorry I give up. I fail to understand what you are trying to claim even after reading your statement multiple times.


The purpose isn't put multiples times.Sorry, I made a mistake!


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## arech

Nimitz said:


> so your blaming the failure on the sticker on the inside of the tube?
> 
> and I can see that your first language isn't English but I had a hard time understanding your last post about the accident...Chad


I'm just looking for answers, and the sticker did't appear like a failure. Sorry about my English


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## eff_dee

On the F4:13, is the tube shape constant on the top and down tubes?


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## arech

eff_dee said:


> On the F4:13, is the tube shape constant on the top and down tubes?


No, the frame broke at the thinner seccion!


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## T-Dog

I cracked my Pinarello Team Telekom frame after 4 and a half years and Pinarello were fantastic. It was well out of warranty but Pinarello gave me a brand new F4:13 in any colour. I have had the frame for 2 years and it has been perfect. I am 90 plus kilos and have crashed it a couple of times and it is still perfect.

There is no way your frame just broke like that. I can understand Pinarello not coming to the party becuase I wouldnt if I was them either.


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## HBPUNK

Theirs NO WAY? You're saying he's lying?

thats bullsht and they should replace the bike


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## arech

T-Dog said:


> I cracked my Pinarello Team Telekom frame after 4 and a half years and Pinarello were fantastic. It was well out of warranty but Pinarello gave me a brand new F4:13 in any colour. I have had the frame for 2 years and it has been perfect. I am 90 plus kilos and have crashed it a couple of times and it is still perfect.
> 
> There is no way your frame just broke like that. I can understand Pinarello not coming to the party becuase I wouldnt if I was them either.



My PINARELLO was bought in SPAIN, Madrid. The store that sold me made a great service, contact the distribuitor, etc...but, BELIEVE, they lost the fork, the seller was crazy, and me to...I believe that some noise at the chain service happened.


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## arech

HBPUNK said:


> Theirs NO WAY? You're saying he's lying?


Lying, not, but confuse yes...Seems that they have affraid to hear me...I'm very worried about safe, i dont need replacement to ride. I bought other, but not PINARELLO. I have one bike to race and another to train. My race bike was the F4:13, to train Galileo...But i lost the credit...Now i'll change...

It easy pressume something, i'm nothing, nobody for them. my word against Pinarello word, is nothing....They can say anything to protect their image...


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## MERAKMAN

No idea whats going on here, apart form a broken F4:13. 

Please could you answer with a YES or a NO. Did the frame break as a result of the accident or did it break and cause the accident? Many thanks and glad your ok!


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## T-Dog

No way it just broke! Pinarello should NOT replace it. 
Hbpunk do you still believe in the tooth fairy?


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## Sriajuda

arech said:


> I was racing and deviate a race accident, i didn't lost the control, i was estable but the front road lock, my body was back and made an handspike, the frame broke, and i fell!


This is how I understand (interpret) your statement:

1) You were racing
2) You avoided running into a crash ahead of you
3) You locked the front wheel (brake)
4) started to go over the handlebars
5) the frame broke
6) you crashed to the ground, frame already broken.

Correct?


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## arech

Sriajuda said:


> This is how I understand (interpret) your statement:
> 
> 1) You were racing
> 2) You avoided running into a crash ahead of you
> 3) You locked the front wheel (brake)
> 4) started to go over the handlebars
> 5) the frame broke
> 6) you crashed to the ground, frame already broken.
> 
> Correct?


1) Yes;
2) Yes,and i went out of the road, at a grass ramp;
3) Yes;
4) Yes, and the body went back to the seat to avoid to throw ahead;
5) Yes;
6) Yes.


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## arech

MERAKMAN said:


> No idea whats going on here, apart form a broken F4:13.
> 
> Please could you answer with a YES or a NO. Did the frame break as a result of the accident or did it break and cause the accident? Many thanks and glad your ok!


NO, YES.


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## MERAKMAN

arech said:


> 1) Yes;
> 2) Yes,and i went out of the road, at a grass ramp;
> 3) Yes;
> 4) Yes, and the body went back to the seat to avoid to throw ahead;
> 5) Yes;
> 6) Yes.



Thank you for that!


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## Sriajuda

Well, one more report that reinforces my mistrust in composite materials. I come from the sailing scene, where carbon has been common for 20 years in racing, and I've seen way too many masts, booms, rudders, etc. break without apparent cause. I stick with metal, trusty steel!!, thank you very much.

And I do hate flying in modern aircraft, especially Airbus. No way I'd set foot on a A380, for that matter!


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## dnalsaam

This whole story is a crock. The OP admits that he was riding off the road when the frame broke. This is not a case of a catastrophic failure, but of a frame that was designed exclusively for road use effectively being used for a purpose that it was not designed for and failing when it was submitted to stresses that exceeded those that could be considered reasonable when used according to specs. All you need is some soft wet ground like that seen in the photo of the rider and the front wheel can decelerate from perhaps 40 mph to 0 mph in a matter of a second. I have seen that type of deceleration cause breakage of steel and aluminum too. This is the equivalent of crashing a bike into a brick wall.

This is one example of both builders and consumers wanting to push the weight envelope so far, to where there simply isn't enough material when you exceed the parameters set forth when the frame project was developed. 

The sticker is likely used in the fiber lay-out phase and has absolutely nothing to do with the breakage.

Por ARECH, por favor escrever em portugues, entao é possivel compreender.


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## Sriajuda

dnalsaam said:


> All you need is some soft wet ground like that seen in the photo of the rider and the front wheel can decelerate from perhaps 40 mph to 0 mph in a matter of a second. I have seen that type of deceleration cause breakage of steel and aluminum too. This is the equivalent of crashing a bike into a brick wall.


Sorry, but that is moot. Crashing into a wall puts magnitudes more stress into a frame than going off the shoulder of a hard pavement. Any sort of hard deceleration on the front wheel simply throws off the rider; the remaining forces should never be enough to break or, in the case of a metal frame, even bend a frame.

As we can see in the picture, the front wheel and the fork both remain intact. It is quite absurd to have a frame that yields before these two inherently weaker components. Either the frame had some damage prior to the incident, or it was designed or built inadequately. Simple as that.

And, BTW, *steel* does not break in that way, never. It might bend, fold, or even tear, but it won't break into pieces.


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## arech

dnalsaam said:


> . All you need is some soft wet ground like that seen in the photo of the rider and the front wheel can decelerate from perhaps 40 mph to 0 mph in a matter of a second. I have seen that type of deceleration cause breakage of steel and aluminum too. This is the equivalent of crashing a bike into a brick wall.
> Por ARECH, por favor escrever em portugues, entao é possivel compreender.


Thanks for your effort to understand me. But i was at 10 mph not at 40 mph! 

Quando o acidente ocorreu eu estava a 16 Km/h e não a 63 Km/h. Como você pode observar eu não me machuquei quando caí, por sorte, na grama. Se eu estivesse a 40 mph quem teria se quebrado ao meio seria eu e não o quadro.

A questão é que o quadro deveria aguentar as forças pois o guidon (handlebar), avanço (stem), roda dianteira (front wheel) e garfo (fork) aguentaram. Já tive experiências semelhantes numa delas entortei garfo e roda mas o quadro aguentou (Eddy Merckx de aço)! 

Obrigado, desculpe pelo péssimo ingles!


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## arech

dnalsaam said:


> All you need is some soft wet ground like that seen in the photo of the rider and the front wheel can decelerate from perhaps 40 mph to 0 mph in a matter of a second.


10 mph to 0 mph!


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## arech

Sriajuda said:


> As we can see in the picture, the front wheel and the fork both remain intact. It is quite absurd to have a frame that yields before these two inherently weaker components. Either the frame had some damage prior to the incident, or it was designed or built inadequately. Simple as that..


3 cases have already been reported!


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## Getoutandride

Ok, If ive read this right, 

You were riding a road bike offroad at the time of the crash (a racing frame at that) 

You put further force on the frame by heavy breaking on the front wheel?

And then you want a warranty on the frame you have clearly misused?

Ok think of it this way - youve just bought a ferrari, you have taken it down a dirt road and for some reason have swerved and ended up in the verge, rock and tree have mechanically destroyed the bottom of the car, would you then go to ferrari and ask for a new car because it was too low, when the car is clearly designed for road use only?

If you ask me you have been very irrational and have blackened the name of a reputable company who have made some of the greatest frames currently on the market


Thats my two cents anyway


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## steiger1

So, I have a F4:13 as well. This case concerns me a little bit; however I don´t understand this accident clearly.

However, two points:

1.The bike business and technology is overpriced and overestimated. In secret the developers admit, that the frames brake all the time and they are produced much simplier than we could imagine in China or Taiwan.

2. Unfortunately, the frame triangle of the F4:13 was the first step of Pinarello into the carbon business and nothing special. The triangle was produced in Taiwan, the rear cage and the fork elsewhere. Its heavy and the mold was not exclusively used for Pinarello; there were some models from other brands on the market; although they were not very common or widespread.

However, I like the brand Pinarello and my bike very much as ist is stiff and goog on downhills but less forgiving or light.

The Paris and the Prince use unique molds.

Finally, I would recommend a Colnago from the point of the production process.


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## arech

Getoutandride said:


> Ok, If ive read this right,
> 
> You were riding a road bike offroad at the time of the crash (a racing frame at that)
> 
> You put further force on the frame by heavy breaking on the front wheel?
> 
> And then you want a warranty on the frame you have clearly misused?
> 
> Ok think of it this way - youve just bought a ferrari, you have taken it down a dirt road and for some reason have swerved and ended up in the verge, rock and tree have mechanically destroyed the bottom of the car, would you then go to ferrari and ask for a new car because it was too low, when the car is clearly designed for road use only?
> 
> If you ask me you have been very irrational and have blackened the name of a reputable company who have made some of the greatest frames currently on the market
> 
> 
> Thats my two cents anyway


1) the whell and fork support a force that a frame did't support! 

2) I don't want warranty, i'm asking for help to understand what's happened. 

3) i didn't bit, i stop out of the road at a clean grass, no rocks, no trees, and the frame broke! like i explain...

4) I agree, but if they are so "great" why they have a poor custemer service? The great companies try to develop better products (SPECIALIZED, TREK, MERIDA...great costumer service) and i think they can analyse tha case and tell me what happen!


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## arech

steiger1 said:


> However, I like the brand Pinarello and my bike very much as ist is stiff and goog on downhills but less forgiving or light.
> Finally, I would recommend a Colnago from the point of the production process.


I like PINARELLO too, and i like they can develop better and better bikes. I have a Galilleo to train and the F4:13 i just use for racing (no more). Now i'm riding a Colgano Criastallo..lighter and sttifer and made in Italy, with a ISO 9000 control quality...

To understand (interpret) the statement:
1) i was racing
2) I avoided running into a crash ahead of you
3) I locked the front wheel (brake)
4) started to go over the handlebars
5) the frame broke
6) I crashed to the ground, frame already broken.


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## Sriajuda

arech said:


> 2) I don't want warranty, i'm asking for help to understand what's happened.


How many kilometres are on that frame? Do ride a lot in the hills & mountains? What is your weight?


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## arech

Sriajuda said:


> How many kilometres are on that frame? Do ride a lot in the hills & mountains? What is your weight?


15000 Km. 50% hills, 6% avg, 71 Kg (156 lbs).


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## arech

Getoutandride said:


> Ok think of it this way - youve just bought a ferrari...


COLNAGO/FERRARI....PINARELLO/?...FIAT....


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## dave2pvd

arech said:


> COLNAGO/FERRARI....PINARELLO/?...FIAT....


No, Ferrari.......FIAT

Colnago, Pinarello.....Chery


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## arech

dave2pvd said:


> No, Ferrari.......FIAT
> 
> Colnago, Pinarello.....Chery


Chery?! NO!!!! Beijin Auto


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## T-Dog

Pinarello = Porsche


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## Sriajuda

arech said:


> 15000 Km. 50% hills, 6% avg, 71 Kg (156 lbs).


Well, consider this: Every time you put pressure on the Pedal, the frame has to flex (bend) in the opposite direction. After half a crank rotation, direction of flexing reverses. Estimating an average of 5 meters per crank revolution, your frame has gone through 3 million flexing cycles.

The position at which your frame broke is the part of the frame with the most flex / twist due to pedaling. Ergo: Fatigue break. Simply don't trust carbon. It sure is a good material for the pros, but how long do they ride their bikes? Especially in races? More than a 1000 kms? Probably not. All composite materials have less-than-optimal fatigue characteristics, and progressing fatigue is almost undetectable in composites.

Of course the bike makers could simply design and build on the safer side, with more material in the frame, but then the weight would easily come up to that of a good aluminium frame.


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## arech

T-Dog said:


> Pinarello = Porsche


POSH you mean! But for those who like to dream....Colnago/Ferrari it's real!


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## steiger1

Sriajuda said:


> Well, consider this: Every time you put pressure on the Pedal, the frame has to flex (bend) in the opposite direction. After half a crank rotation, direction of flexing reverses. Estimating an average of 5 meters per crank revolution, your frame has gone through 3 million flexing cycles.
> 
> The position at which your frame broke is the part of the frame with the most flex / twist due to pedaling. Ergo: Fatigue break. Simply don't trust carbon. It sure is a good material for the pros, but how long do they ride their bikes? Especially in races? More than a 1000 kms? Probably not. All composite materials have less-than-optimal fatigue characteristics, and progressing fatigue is almost undetectable in composites.
> 
> Of course the bike makers could simply design and build on the safer side, with more material in the frame, but then the weight would easily come up to that of a good aluminium frame.


Actually its a good opinion, but it does not explain the fact, that pretty new Prince frames have broken.


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## schimanski

Getoutandride said:


> Ok, If ive read this right,
> 
> You were riding a road bike offroad at the time of the crash (a racing frame at that)
> 
> You put further force on the frame by heavy breaking on the front wheel?


This is my beef here. Imagine someone riding a RACE FRAME (that by definition should be able to be raced not just cruised around) on their lawn and pulling the front brake hard at 10mph. You and lots of others seem to be more than willing to accept that this WILL destroy the frame since its a lawn, not a road. To me this is total bull. Think of Lance cyclocrossing in TdF 2003, crappy frames get destroyed in something like that, good ones don't.

A race frame has to be able to withstand racing where there's hard braking, even bunny hops over a pothole etc. If hard braking or bunny hopping is not allowed on a certain frame just let's not equip it with any mounts to brakes and state it's not made to withstand anything but light cruising, huh? Simple really.


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## T-Dog

arech your a liar! It broke becuase you crashed it. End of story!


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## Sriajuda

schimanski said:


> This is my beef here. Imagine someone riding a RACE FRAME (that by definition should be able to be raced not just cruised around) on their lawn and pulling the front brake hard at 10mph. You and lots of others seem to be more than willing to accept that this WILL destroy the frame since its a lawn, not a road. To me this is total bull. Think of Lance cyclocrossing in TdF 2003, crappy frames get destroyed in something like that, good ones don't.
> 
> A race frame has to be able to withstand racing where there's hard braking, even bunny hops over a pothole etc. If hard braking or bunny hopping is not allowed on a certain frame just let's not equip it with any mounts to brakes and state it's not made to withstand anything but light cruising, huh? Simple really.


Exactly. I get the impression that some of those who state crap like 'hard braking on soft ground will break a frame' simply are afraid to consider that their own, super-light weight carbon bike might be unsafe.

Unfortunately, there is no way to verify the safety of such a frame that is nondestructive.


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## Sriajuda

T-Dog said:


> arech your a liar! It broke becuase you crashed it. End of story!


You have been there and witnessed the OP crashing and breaking his bike, yes? If not, better shut up.


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## MERAKMAN

Sriajuda said:


> You have been there and witnessed the OP crashing and breaking his bike, yes? If not, better shut up.


Lets all chill abit. The op sounds like a geniune chap. It is possible the frame broke upon riding on the grass, but it could also have broken anywhere. Carbon can have structual weakness's, breakages DO happen. The guys on the Parlee stand at UK cycle show told me carbon can have weakness's and break (Parlees are pretty good frames aren't they?) Nothings perfect, if theres a weakness in the frame (may have happened in a previous crash I don't know) and then forces are applied to it, it can break. Look at George Hincappie in the Paris Roubaix; his all carbon fork broke...:idea:


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## arech

schimanski said:


> Think of Lance cyclocrossing in TdF 2003, crappy frames get destroyed in something like that, good ones don't.
> A race frame has to be able to withstand racing where there's hard braking, even bunny hops over a pothole etc. If hard braking or bunny hopping is not allowed on a certain frame just let's not equip it with any mounts to brakes and state it's not made to withstand anything but light cruising, huh? Simple really.


EXACTLY! i watched a lot of times the Lance's video, and watched a lot of other TDF videos when the guys leave the road and crash. It's common. I don't want to compare my crash but i have never seen a frame broke!

But the pro's use the same frames which are sold in stores? i think no....


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## arech

T-Dog said:


> arech your a liar! It broke becuase you crashed it. End of story!


This can kill somebody. I have had worst crashes, i'm racing to 25 years and i have never seen a frame broke like this. I am not dawdle lie or inventing stories. I am very concerned about this...


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## arech

MERAKMAN. The op sounds like a geniune chap... carbon can have weakness's and break said:


> Not so much as seems...i agree but, PINARELLO can be better...A lot of people were saw when the crash happened, they don't have believed because it was a spill light...About Hincappie the aluninum fork crown broke, not the frame...


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## J T CUNNINGHAM

It seems to me as if the "sticker", was within the laminate, thus the possible

creation of an unbonded area leading to failure. 


Regards,
J T


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## Hooben

arech said:


> EXACTLY! i watched a lot of times the Lance's video, and watched a lot of other TDF videos when the guys leave the road and crash. It's common. I don't want to compare my crash but i have never seen a frame broke!


Come on now, frames and carbon stems break all the time.
There is no way that I could do an endo over the handlebars, off road on my road bike and expect the frame to be okay. And I'm talking about aluminum, titanium, carbon. Every crash even at slow speed could be the end of your frame. Heck, if you let a broom stick fall on your frame, it will dent or damage it and could be the end.

Watch this video and see the carbon bike torn in 2 !


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## T-Dog

The frame broke becuase he crashed. If there was any doubt Pinarello would have replaced it as they did my frame.


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## Slim Again Soon

Man, that's an ugly break.

Unclear of the cause, but shouldn't a frame stand up to a simple accident? Didn't sound like he committed an atomic crash. Racing or not, a frame should be robust -- enough to survive some of the unexpected events that we all get tangled up in every now and then.

And any frame I buy dang should hold up if I run off the pavement onto the grassy shoulder.


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## Sriajuda

arech said:


> But the pro's use the same frames which are sold in stores? i think no....


Of course not. Even if it looks the same, you can bet that the pro's frame was handcrafted, handpicked, checked and rechecked with every technology available, before every race...

I recall reading that the pro teams at the TDF 2008 were searching for bike mechanics with super sensitive fingers, some apparently can run their fingertips over a carbon frame and feel micro damages that are undetectable by sonography or x-ray!


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## MERAKMAN

arech said:


> About Hincappie the aluninum fork crown broke, not the frame...


Sorry not correct, George was testing a Prototype all carbon fork for the Paris Roubaix. Apparently it was the first time he'd used it and had ridden it over a few cobbles and bumped it down a kerb or two before riding the race. Then it broke in the race. Think he may have broken his collar bone in that one. Luckily you were ok.


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## arech

Hooben said:


> Come on now, frames and carbon stems break all the time.
> There is no way that I could do an endo over the handlebars, off road on my road bike and expect the frame to be okay. And I'm talking about aluminum, titanium, carbon. Every crash even at slow speed could be the end of your frame. Heck, if you let a broom stick fall on your frame, it will dent or damage it and could be the end.
> >


But It is not just about the product, all the company has defects in projects and unfortunately sometimes fail. Mavic R-sys Wheel, a responsable manufacture that made a mistake and now is doing a recall, and Giant replace the fork, Look KEO, axis ...

AND as I can verify these defects? I always see the state of the bicycle before riding, but has verifications I cannot do and therefore I trust in the orientation of the manufacturer...But if the manufacturer is aware of the limitations of the product the manufactures must warn about!


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## arech

T-Dog said:


> The frame broke becuase he crashed. If there was any doubt Pinarello would have replaced it as they did my frame.


4 SIMILAR CASES...Isn't coincidence...


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## T-Dog

arech said:


> 4 SIMILAR CASES...Isn't coincidence...


arech get over and buy a new frame, preferably a Prince.


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## 358pe68

This thread is absolutely hilarious ! 

Carry on, I'll get popcorn and enjoy !


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## arech

T-Dog said:


> arech get over and buy a new frame, preferably a Prince.


Pinarello no more...the Pinarello guys need to learn a lot about consumer satisfactio...


Now i'm riding a Colnago Cristallo, great for critériums...


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## gambo2166

MERAKMAN said:


> Sorry not correct, George was testing a Prototype all carbon fork for the Paris Roubaix. Apparently it was the first time he'd used it and had ridden it over a few cobbles and bumped it down a kerb or two before riding the race. Then it broke in the race. Think he may have broken his collar bone in that one. Luckily you were ok.


 He crashed and got up on the same bike then his fork broke.


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## T-Dog

arech said:


> Pinarello no more...the Pinarello guys need to learn a lot about consumer satisfactio...
> 
> 
> Now i'm riding a Colnago Cristallo, great for critériums...


Well hopefully do you dont crash this one; then everything will be fine.


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## MERAKMAN

T-Dog said:


> Well hopefully do you dont crash this one; then everything will be fine.



Poor bloke, he'll be scared to ride anything again!  

Arech, enjoy your Cristallo and don't worry about what the cynics have said .....


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## arech

MERAKMAN said:


> Poor bloke, he'll be scared to ride anything again!
> 
> Arech, enjoy your Cristallo and don't worry about what the cynics have said .....


Thanks, i just like to have a bike that can support the race... One week after the crash i was racing....with my PINARELLO GALILLEO, my training bike (Aluminum frame)...then i bought Colnago for race...


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## MERAKMAN

gambo2166 said:


> He crashed and got up on the same bike then his fork broke.


There you go..a crash can weaken carbon...then it CAN break!


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## MERAKMAN

arech said:


> Thanks, i just like to have a bike that can support the race... One week after the crash i was racing....with my PINARELLO GALILLEO, my training bike (Aluminum frame)...then i bought Colnago for race...


Could you post picks of your new Cristallo please?


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## dave2pvd

MERAKMAN said:


> Could you post picks of your new Cristallo please?


But please do so on a different fcuking thread!


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## MERAKMAN

dave2pvd said:


> But please do so on a different fcuking thread!


Nice!


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## proy

MERAKMAN said:


> Nice!


May not have been nice but it was honest, relevant and timely:thumbsup:


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## ping771

arech said:


> Pinarello no more...the Pinarello guys need to learn a lot about consumer satisfactio...
> 
> 
> Now i'm riding a Colnago Cristallo, great for critériums...


I feel for you, really I do. But do you really think it is wise, after the failure of a very expensive bike (Pinarello), to get back on another expensive bike (Colnago), and for racing criteriums for that matter?!? 

Not just me, but many many people here on this site who race presently and in the past, have said that steel and aluminum bikes are not only adequate, but those materials are great for amateur racing. Save the Cristallo for club and coffeeshop rides, and get yourself a workhorse bike for the crits, really. I wouldn't want to see another carbon bike failure posted by you (and the subsequent 300+ posts by people that follow)! All kidding aside, I've talked to alot of racers, and they say that while carbon is good, you don't need it for 2-3hr races, And even on the hilly races, I know so many people who just use all alum or a mix of alum and carbon frames. Guess I am just being practical.


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## arech

ping771 said:


> I feel for you, really I do. But do you really think it is wise, after the failure of a very expensive bike (Pinarello), to get back on another expensive bike (Colnago), and for racing criteriums for that matter?!?


Thanks! I have a Pinarello Galileo for training and try to race and the difference quality race is huge... i have a EDDY MERCKX steel frame too. When i race a criterium i consider the 60 to 100 corners and nothing like a stiff frame, aluminum and steel can not offer the same that carbon. I had race whit Specialized Tarmarc and Roubaix too but Colanago are the best...


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## HigherGround

MERAKMAN said:


> Sorry not correct, George was testing a Prototype all carbon fork for the Paris Roubaix. Apparently it was the first time he'd used it and had ridden it over a few cobbles and bumped it down a kerb or two before riding the race. Then it broke in the race. Think he may have broken his collar bone in that one. Luckily you were ok.


With all due respect, it seems that Hincapie was actually riding a fork with an aluminum steerer:

Link #1: 

"Scott Daubert [edit: of Trek]: One thing I forgot to tell you about is that George is running with a different fork; it has a longer axle to crown dimension, and it has a longer rake than the normal Bontrager Race Lite fork.

CN: Is this something new you'll bring into the Trek line?

SD: No, it's actually from Bontrager's Satellite line, almost from their commuter level, but it has dimensions that are appropriate for Roubaix. It's an in-house made fork, made at Trek from OCLV carbon, it's just on a different model bike.

CN: Is it a steel steerer?

SD: No, it's aluminium; it's been blasted then anodized black."


Link #2: "...The steerer that broke was an anodized alumnium Bontrager model..."

In Hincapie's case, apparently he had crashed earlier in the race, continued with the same bike, and then the steerer tube failed dramatically. 

Despite all the concerns surrounding the potential for catastrophic failure with carbon, I think people can have a false sense of security with steel, aluminum, or ti. Carbon is not the only material that can fail spectacularly. I had a set of aluminum handlebars shear off at the stem, and I know two friends who have also broken aluminum stems and/or handlebars. I found 8 or 9 cracks around the eyelets of a Campagnolo aluminum rim that was less than 3 years old, and had not been crashed. A friend's aluminum mountain bike had a crack over half way around the down tube - which we discovered while pumping up his tires before a ride!  

Despite having ridden steel, aluminum, ti, and carbon frames over the last 25 years, the only one I have cracked was a five-year-old steel model. I have met two people who have broken their ti frames (which were made by the same well-known manufacturer) at the bottom bracket. 

Any material can fail, sometimes spectacularly, under the "right" (or wrong) conditions. Whether the failure was caused by substandard materials, bad engineering, a manufacturer's defect, improper installation, or concealed damage from a previous crash will be irrelevant while you're airborne and looking to stick the landing. The importance of inspecting your bike carefully and routinely can not be overemphasized. Were there warning signs before arech's frame failed? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, now that riding season is approaching for many of us, now is a great time to give your bike a thorough cleaning and inspection. It may prevent a long walk home, or worse.  

(I hope this post doesn't come across as being too preachy. I just hate the idea of someone being injured by an accident that could have been easily prevented.)


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## Sacke




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## MERAKMAN

HigherGround said:


> With all due respect, it seems that Hincapie was actually riding a fork with an aluminum steerer:
> 
> Link #1:
> 
> "Scott Daubert [edit: of Trek]: One thing I forgot to tell you about is that George is running with a different fork; it has a longer axle to crown dimension, and it has a longer rake than the normal Bontrager Race Lite fork.
> 
> CN: Is this something new you'll bring into the Trek line?
> 
> SD: No, it's actually from Bontrager's Satellite line, almost from their commuter level, but it has dimensions that are appropriate for Roubaix. It's an in-house made fork, made at Trek from OCLV carbon, it's just on a different model bike.
> 
> CN: Is it a steel steerer?
> 
> SD: No, it's aluminium; it's been blasted then anodized black."
> 
> 
> Link #2: "...The steerer that broke was an anodized alumnium Bontrager model..."
> )


Interesting, but we've only his word to go on and I'm cynical. Where did you get that conversation from please?


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## HigherGround

Link #1 takes you to CyclingNews.com. The article was posted on April 8, 2006, which was the day before Paris - Roubaix. I doubt that Daubert would have been spreading "misinformation" the day before the event, but of course anything is possible. 

There is an editor's note at the end of the article that, "George Hincapie's Paris-Roubaix ended some 45km from the finish when the fork on this bike snapped. The team said it believed an earlier crash damaged the fork and the subsequent repeated pounding eventually caused it to break." However it does not specify when that note was added.


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## HigherGround

I did not bother to hunt through the link to ThePaceline.com which is referenced in link #2. However, it appears that the comment quoted in my "link #2" above is based on information in the CyclingNews.com link.


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## CLTracer

The way his bike broke is fairly typical for carbon bikes these days. I've seen a dozen of the exact same failures as the result of crashes.


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## thumper8888

If the sticker was BETWEEN layers of carbon in the buildup it could have contributed. That's a serious flaw and a moderately common cause of laminate failure (contamination). If it's simply pasted to the outer layer of the inside of tube, it's meaningless.


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## gabollini

No way. The picture of the Pinarello you see is precisely what I saw happen right in front of me. This guy didn't really hit anything on a group ride on a c-50 (I think it was) brand new. cracked on the laminated joint on the top tube, then stress from that completely delaminated the down tube. He almost fell off a 50 foot bridge. Crashed right in front of my wife and I, who were following on our sturdy aluminum RT1000 Cannondale tandem. This was the 2nd time this happened without warning to the same fellow. He hit the deck pretty hard, and thank God he didn't take out any more people (including us) with him. Colnago sure got a crummy reputation from my end with that sort of failure. I've seen folks w/ carbon bars, stems, etc have the same problems. This guy, as I talked to him(he was pretty shook), was a skilled rider and cared well for his bike. He had no warning, and certainly kept his bikes in pristine condition (campy components). No thanks, Colnago. BTW, I have a Pinarello Prince SL 2004. Any failures on that rig that we know of--I'm guessing it was made in Italy and the build quality might be a little better?


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## kyrider

*Cracked Prince frame*



358pe68 said:


> This thread is absolutely hilarious !
> 
> Carry on, I'll get popcorn and enjoy !


I had a different opinion of Pinarello frames but after my frame cracked few days ago (after not even 6 mo of riding) I would never buy a bike from them! I’m waiting now to get a replacement from Gita, unless they try to pin this issue on “user mistake”, which I know it’s not. But I would not be surprised if they try.
I’ve had Trek and Scott bikes for years and had no problems at all, for a much lower price per frame I must add!


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## MERAKMAN

kyrider said:


> I had a different opinion of Pinarello frames but after my frame cracked few days ago (after not even 6 mo of riding) I would never buy a bike from them! I’m waiting now to get a replacement from Gita, unless they try to pin this issue on “user mistake”, which I know it’s not. But I would not be surprised if they try.
> I’ve had Trek and Scott bikes for years and had no problems at all, for a much lower price per frame I must add!


Hi Sorry to hear about your Pinarello frame. Was this the carbon Prince or alloy one please?


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## kyrider

*prince*

it's the FP Carbon 08 model


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## MERAKMAN

kyrider said:


> it's the FP Carbon 08 model


Sorry to hear this, I hope you find a suitable replacement soon.


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## koyaanisqatsi

I was looking to buy the Pinarello FP3 Dura Ace 7900 thru realcyclist.com, but then I saw they have only a one year warranty on carbon parts. Clearly Pinarello has little confidence in their frames. They should replace this frame for arech, unless they can show the frame was abused in some other way.

Now, arech comes to you guys with his story and you call him a liar. Not cool. Why would he lie to you? No benefit to doing so. I believe him. From he picture, conditions are wet, so a locked wheel due to braking is plausible. I see no damage other to frame or components, but their may be. This looks like a frame failure.

Short story. I bought a reasonably expensive Schwinn bike. I rode it for a couple weeks or maybe more, but the frame flex terribly whenever I hammered, hill or no hill, to the point of the chain rubbing on the chain stays. I complained to the bike shop and they said "bikes do that". Poorly made bikes/frames do that. Then I got lucky. I reached down to shift one fine day and the shift lever broke off the frame. They then replaced the frame, and that new frame did not flex mush at all. I finally had the good bike I originally thought I was getting.

Sometimes, manufacturing defects occur. As for Pinarello, I'm now very skeptical. I don't doubt they are great bikes in many respects, but their warranty is poor.


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## Specialized6000

Specialized have a great replacement warranty/system, many people here in the Spec forum have had their Tarmac/Roubaixs-Comps/Elites/Pros brake & Specialized will send them an S-Works frame, that is customer service


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## southparkcycles

We had a large team on the 4:13 racing crits and road races for 2 years and ZERO failures, many of the riders were 185 to 200 lbs. As a dealer we have seen zero warranty issues out of this frame set as well.


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## stampadams

This is an incredible story. I think the validity to it can be found in that it is simply FYI. And also the video of the bike splintering...is that due to the rider hitting the road sign by the way? Still, is it reasonable for a frame to fracture like that even if he did? Hmmmm, maybe I will stick to metal frames after all. Thanks for the story.


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## koyaanisqatsi

*Don't sugarcoat it.*

Tell us what you really think.



DavidSmith said:


> I've owned 2 Dogmas and 1 Galileo. Pinarello is a bunch of concieted and generally incompetent idiots who are surfing on marketing-hype and pseudo Italian flair in order to sell frames to unsuspecting victims. I've dealt personally with Pinarello by phone in Italy and with their incredibly-incompetent and utterly wortless French representative, and I can attest that they are indeed a company to be avoided. They are arrogant and irrespective of customers. The three frames I owned suffered from cracks and weld-joint failure.
> 
> DON'T BE A MORON, AVOID PINARELLO!


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## svard75

Sriajuda said:


> Sorry, but that is moot. Crashing into a wall puts magnitudes more stress into a frame than going off the shoulder of a hard pavement. Any sort of hard deceleration on the front wheel simply throws off the rider; the remaining forces should never be enough to break or, in the case of a metal frame, even bend a frame.
> 
> As we can see in the picture, the front wheel and the fork both remain intact. It is quite absurd to have a frame that yields before these two inherently weaker components. Either the frame had some damage prior to the incident, or it was designed or built inadequately. Simple as that.
> 
> And, BTW, *steel* does not break in that way, never. It might bend, fold, or even tear, but it won't break into pieces.



oops sorry for resurrecting this dead thread.

I second that from personal experience. Hit a large black lab dog doing 34km/hr with my Steel bike and bent the frame and steel fork. It didn't break it just bent and I was able to safely ride the bike home another 30+km without incident. The front end was pushed right back against the downtube (the front wheel was about a pinky finger away) so the geo was way off but it still rode fine. Let's see that happen on a carbon bike. Either way the end result was a frame which could not be fixed but at least the bike was safe to ride home after.

(btw to defend myself from crashing into a poor doggie.. The Dog ran out of the bush right in front of me. The stupid owner didn't have him on a leash and they were playing in the bush off a public pathway frequented by cyclists and runners)


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## southparkcycles

I bet the guys handlebar hit the top tube when he crashed and thats what caused the failure. Shouldn't affect the intgrity of the wheels.


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## vladvm

original?


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## Nicole Hamilton

Stories like this are why I've pretty nearly decided to accept Liberty Mutual's offer to add a rider to my homeowner's insurance to cover a Pinarello Paris I've ordered. For $400 / year, it includes collision with a $0 deductible.


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