# This is how they dope..the truth!



## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

Post is gone as per request.


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## darbo (Dec 9, 2002)

*No flames...*

... but name names. "Trust me... I know." I am a cycling fan, which means I've been rendered incapable of trust. I have no idea if what you write is plausible or not. But if your really 'know', don't tell us, tell a journo or doping agency or whatever. The weakest part of your story is that you're telling it here.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

While his delivery may be hard to digest Realgains does know what his is talking about. He is pretty well know on some of the non cycling doping forums. 

The information he gave on microdosing EPO to keep recyclates up while transfusing is common method, but not one that is well know outside Pro teams. Heras was likely caught for this in the Vuelta a few years back. I have heard Pros talk about it but his is the first time I have see someone write about it.

But because he is not a Doctor we know that whatever he writes is worthless
:thumbsup:


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## slowdave (Nov 29, 2005)

with my minimal knowledge of the practices of blood dopeing, i see this acount as plausable


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## AH1 (May 26, 2008)

Why does anyone respond to this guy (Realgains) He posts nothing but doping info, his forum name is REAL GAINS for F**K sake. He's obviously someone trolling for people to ask him for drugs OR He's a LEO trolling to find abusers. Ask yourselves, why would someone subscribe to a cycling forum and post nothing but "How to do performance drug" posts


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Realgain,

You may know a thing or two about doping but I'm not so sure if your assessment on 90/91 tour is correct.
LeMond won 90 tour because he was ordered to follow wheels of Bugno/Breukink since his teammate Pensec was in yellow and Indurain sacrificed his chance for Banesto captain Perico (Pedro Delgado) even though he was the more talented rider.
At the end it was Chiapucci's tactical mistake in L'Alpe and lack of team support from Carrera were the reasons why LeMond took the yellow. Also, him not wearing the aero helmet and not using the aerobar in the last TT didn't help. You would think people would've learned from what happened to Fignon in 89 tour....
For LeMond, 91 tour was lost because he showed up with huge set of arms and extra 10 to 15 pounds of body weight. Also, Indurain showed up as a captain this time with the support of Pedro Delgado, Cuevas and Bernard....


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks to REALGAINS for the discourse on doping. I suspected it had a lot to do with Hgb/Hct and the Retic Count.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

cpark said:


> Realgain,
> 
> You may know a thing or two about doping but I'm not so sure if your assessment on 90/91 tour is correct.
> LeMond won 90 tour because he was ordered to follow wheels of Bugno/Breukink since his teammate Pensec was in yellow and Indurain sacrificed his chance for Banesto captain Perico (Pedro Delgado) even though he was the more talented rider.
> ...



Hi.

Lemond came in at 150...two pounds over his usual starting weight..a least this is what he told me. He also said he was in the best shape of his life. He said in 90 he was not in that great a shape.
What about Fignon. He was in top shape and ended up 6th.!
Where does epo come into the equation bro?
Chiapucci was one of the biggest dopers going bro.
Bugno was too. 
Indurain wads doped through the roof on epo and so was Delgado bro.

Cheers


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> But because he is not a Doctor we know that whatever he writes is worthless
> :thumbsup:


Unlike you, he says he is a medical professional, and he certainly seems to have a lot of knowledge in this field that backs that up. Also unlike you, he's also not making diagnoses of people he's never examined, which is totally unethical for any medical professional. Except for an excessive use of "bro," he carries a great deal of credibility in this field. Unlike you, of course.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Sounds old school, but would it work now?

Post is gone now, but the method Realgains described only works if the riders don't get dope tested immediately after the stage. It's a method dependent on morning-only tests.

They're getting guys before they've even had a chance to drop their HR. I saw a picture of Valverde still on his bike waiting at anti-dopage. There's a video of Beltran trying to out run his minder after one of the first stages.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Unlike you, he says he is a medical professional, and he certainly seems to have a lot of knowledge in this field that backs that up. Also unlike you, he's also not making diagnoses of people he's never examined, which is totally unethical for any medical professional. Except for an excessive use of "bro," he carries a great deal of credibility in this field. Unlike you, of course.


I am glad you find him credible, as I am sure he agrees with every thing I have written.

Realgains,
- have you found that some riders respond better then others to PED's?
-Do you find that riders with denser muscular structure (Armstrong, Ulrich, Indurain) benefit more from EPO then riders with less muscle mass (Light weight climbers)?
-Can you think of a rational reason for EPO to be found in 6 of Armstong's samples from the 99 Tour? Mohair says he has a dozen reasons but has yet to share any with us, perhaps you could add some light to how EPO materializes in a sample.


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## Racer C (Jul 18, 2002)

Realgains said:


> Post is gone as per request.


Top Secret video of Realgains and friends.

<div>



<br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ovs0_montell-jordan-this-is-how-we-do-it_music">Montell Jordan - This Is How We Do It</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/PeteRock">PeteRock</a></i></div>


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

jorgy said:


> Sounds old school, but would it work now?
> 
> Post is gone now, but the method Realgains described only works if the riders don't get dope tested immediately after the stage. It's a method dependent on morning-only tests.
> 
> They're getting guys before they've even had a chance to drop their HR. I saw a picture of Valverde still on his bike waiting at anti-dopage. There's a video of Beltran trying to out run his minder after one of the first stages.


Interesting note about the time of testing. From CFA

"Italian anti-doping authorities wanted to test for CERA during the Giro, but the UCI refused to allow them to collect samples from riders in the evening, which is said to be better timing for CERA testing. This is interesting, as clearly the AFLD's freedom from UCI control has been essential to their success, and the Italian anti-doping officials did not have such freedom.Quite a few riders from the Giro must be thankful to the UCI for saving them from testing positive."


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

why is the post gone? I caught the original and came back for an update--- it was one of the more sensible posts in this sub-forum.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

cpark said:


> For LeMond, 91 tour was lost because he showed up with huge set of arms and extra 10 to 15 pounds of body weight. Also, Indurain showed up as a captain this time with the support of Pedro Delgado, Cuevas and Bernard....


The beginning of the EPO era... is why Lemond lost. 

Where is the proof he was 10 to 15 lbs overweight?? Not true.



v


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## Racer C (Jul 18, 2002)

This is a video of Lemond's medical check in prior to 1991 Tour. Doesn't look overweight to me, though, his comments to the reporter hint that he's less than confident with his form.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

filtersweep said:


> why is the post gone? I caught the original and came back for an update--- it was one of the more sensible posts in this sub-forum.



The First Rule about Doping Club, is that you DO NOT..... ?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

bigpinkt said:


> Interesting note about the time of testing. From CFA
> 
> "Italian anti-doping authorities wanted to test for CERA during the Giro, but the UCI refused to allow them to collect samples from riders in the evening, which is said to be better timing for CERA testing. This is interesting, as clearly the AFLD's freedom from UCI control has been essential to their success, and the Italian anti-doping officials did not have such freedom.Quite a few riders from the Giro must be thankful to the UCI for saving them from testing positive."


Rumor is that they did detect evidence of CERA at the Giro. No leaks to L'Equipe about who they were, all though it's sure easy to speculate. I wish Astana was in Le Tour if for no other reason than to see how they'd do with AFLD's anti-dopage controls.

The switch from random to targeted testing also seems to be playing a role here.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

filtersweep said:


> why is the post gone? I caught the original and came back for an update--- it was one of the more sensible posts in this sub-forum.


I missed it the first time. This is why you should quote in your replies!

Although I'm guessing it was EPO microdosing, blood transfusions, and maybe one or two new things that we haven't thought of yet. If you've been following doping for the last 5 years then the basic methods are pretty obvious.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

jorgy said:


> Rumor is that they did detect evidence of CERA at the Giro. No leaks to L'Equipe about who they were, all though it's sure easy to speculate. I wish Astana was in Le Tour if for no other reason than to see how they'd do with AFLD's anti-dopage controls.
> 
> The switch from random to targeted testing also seems to be playing a role here.


The ASO/AFLD certainly are doing a better job then the UCI could ever do.

Here is a good article about the Giro tests
http://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/tour-de-france/2008/et-maintenant_sto1639117/story.shtml

another good one, supposedly they certified the test the day before!
http://www.sportwereld.be/Article/Detail.aspx?ArticleID=5J1UECK2

The Giro tested found a strange molecule and worked with AFLD to figure out what it was. Good thing they did not tell the riders.

I would assume that others use this as well.....Wonder why Sella pulled out of an Italian race today?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

bigpinkt said:


> I would assume that others use this as well.....Wonder why Sella pulled out of an Italian race today?


Sounds like Sella is due for an out of competition test.

Thanks for the link.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

jorgy said:


> Sounds old school, but would it work now?
> 
> Post is gone now, but the method Realgains described only works if the riders don't get dope tested immediately after the stage. It's a method dependent on morning-only tests.


Last year at the Giro the authorities said they would no longer restrict blood testing to the morning. They would test closer to the start and also after stages. Up until then the vampires would come at seven or eight in the morning, leaving the riders free to do as Realgains described. That change in testing indicates that the testers became aware that riders were taking advantage of the time gap between the traditional testing time and the start of a stage and the gap after a stage but before the next morning's testing. That change should tell you that what Realgains said is legit.

The blood test that got Vino last year at the TdF was done after his time trial win.

During the last years of the Armstrong era, I am convinced that the method that Realgains described is how the most sophisticated doping was done. Prentice Steffan told about the method of blood doping just for the duration of a stage several years ago. It also explains the truly huge performance gains we saw from a certain rider and his crew, even though they were supposedly racing with hematocrits under 50%.

I don't know how good this works today. The testing has become more sophisticated. The time between being summoned for testing and the actual testing has been shortened. The use of chaperones after stages complicates things. The testers say they will do blood tests at times other than in the morning, but there is a question about how often they actually do so.

I am also convinced that at least up to a couple of years ago, the UCI's testing was corrupt. Certain teams were given a free pass, and other teams were targeted. Some teams were getting information about OOC random testing. We still see odd things like McQuaid publicly announcing that Contador is clean. That is just plain bizarre coming from the head of a supposedly neutral organization that is responsible for testing.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> I am glad you find him credible, as I am sure he agrees with every thing I have written.


Don't forget to ask him about the affair that Armstrong supposedly had with Haven Hamilton, and some of your other more fanciful claims. If he is going to agree with everything you've written, he should know what kind of hole he is climbing into. You're nothing but a poser, who proves that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

I heard that they targeted Rico over a number of days and "boiled up" combined urine samples to find a detectable result. Does this sound feasible/ethical/reliable?


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Don't forget to ask him about the affair that Armstrong supposedly had with Haven Hamilton, and some of your other more fanciful claims. If he is going to agree with everything you've written, he should know what kind of hole he is climbing into. You're nothing but a poser, who proves that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


You must be embarrassed.

So far you have done nothing to contradict anything I have written, instead focused on calling me names....a sure sign of a weak case.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Realgains said:


> Hi.
> 
> Lemond came in at 150...two pounds over his usual starting weight..a least this is what he told me. He also said he was in the best shape of his life. He said in 90 he was not in that great a shape.
> What about Fignon. He was in top shape and ended up 6th.!
> ...


I watched a LeMond's interview after the 91 tour.
He claimed that the reason he lost the tour in 91 was because he did a lot of cross country ski training in Minnesota during the winter of 1990 through 91 and his upper body bulked up way too much and spent too much time trying to shed body weight leading up to tdf......
I'm looking at some pictures of him from 89 through 92 in Winning magazine and he has gotten noticeably bulkier each year.
As far as Fignon is concern, I thought 6th place in the twilight of his career is pretty good result especially against the younger, Chiapucci, Bugno and Indurain.

You should've not delete your OP.
It was very intrigue and eye opening, at least for me.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

baker921 said:


> I heard that they targeted Rico over a number of days and "boiled up" combined urine samples to find a detectable result. Does this sound feasible/ethical/reliable?



Apparently three WADA labs were involved. LNDD, Lausanne, and Barcelona each tested the sample to insure the test was correct. The good news is that the developer of CERA (Roche) worked with the testers to develop the test. Roche spent $100's of millions to develop, test and bring to market CERA. They should know how it works with the human body.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

cpark said:


> I watched a LeMond's interview after the 91 tour.
> He claimed that the reason he lost the tour in 91 was because he did a lot of cross country ski training in Minnesota during the winter of 1990 through 91 and his upper body bulked up way too much and spent too much time trying to shed body weight leading up to tdf......
> I'm looking at some pictures of him from 89 through 92 in Winning magazine and he has gotten noticeably bulkier each year.
> As far as Fignon is concern, I thought 6th place in the twilight of his career is pretty good result especially against the younger, Chiapucci, Bugno and Indurain.
> ...



In 91 he and Hampsten noticed that the pace was a lot faster then the year before. They knew "something was up" but didn't know what it was.
Lemond was in the best shape of his life and not excessively heavy.
Fignon wasn't even 30 years old and two years prior he was dominant and should have won the TDF but he screwed up in the last TT. Fignon and Lemond were both in their prime and the most naturally gifted riders in 91...the difference was epo. If Lemond and Fignon were doped on epo in they would have been 1 and 2 with perhaps Fignon winning.


I will try to dig up an interview in which Lemond talks about 91.

Cheers


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> You must be embarrassed.
> 
> So far you have done nothing to contradict anything I have written, instead focused on calling me names....a sure sign of a weak case.


I'm embarrassed that I have to respond to a petulant child. But if I don't do it, who will?


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## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

Why was the post removed? I skimmed it quickly before work and was going to read it more thoroughly later, and then it was gone! It sounded credible to me--just your average cycling fan.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> I'm embarrassed that I have to respond to a petulant child. But if I don't do it, who will?


As expected. No information, just insults.


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## giovanni sartori (Feb 5, 2004)

Realgains said:


> In 91 he and Hampsten noticed that the pace was a lot faster then the year before. They knew "something was up" but didn't know what it was.
> Lemond was in the best shape of his life and not excessively heavy.
> Fignon wasn't even 30 years old and two years prior he was dominant and should have won the TDF but he screwed up in the last TT. Fignon and Lemond were both in their prime and the most naturally gifted riders in 91...the difference was epo. If Lemond and Fignon were doped on epo in they would have been 1 and 2 with perhaps Fignon winning.
> 
> ...


In 92 Lemond was heavier also attributed to XC skiing. He stated his arms and back bulked up. If he noticed the peloton got a lot faster he must have thought his teammate and good buddy - Duclos-lasalle - was on the juice with back to back wins in PR at the ripe age of 38 and 39. Let him point the accusatory finger at him and also explain why he thought he could have won PR in 92 if duclos got caught.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> As expected. No information, just insults.


You get what you give. If I find one post you've ever made where you didn't insult me, I'll be sure to point it out, so you can go back and edit it to add one. The vitriol that spews from your keyboard is pretty revealing of your character.

Interesting how Realgains hasn't jumped to your defense, despite your request. I guess he sees what we all see, which is that while you may be able to throw around lingo and link to a few studies, you don't really know what you are talking about. Like I told you before, just because I read a lot of books about flying planes, doesn't mean I can actually fly one, and I certainly can't call myself a Pilot.


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## AH1 (May 26, 2008)

No, not a cycling fan at all. 
Realgains
<dl id="additionalinfo_list"><dt class="smallfont">*Occupation*:</dt><dd class="smallfont">RN and Personal trainer</dd><dt class="smallfont">*Country*:</dt><dd class="smallfont">Abu Dhabi</dd><dt>He posts about using and advising on use in any forum that has a place for discussing performance enhancing drugs, Bodybuilding.com, steroidology.com, elitefitnness.com (bodybuilding), anabolicminds.co, to name a few. Also an admitted user. Cycling gets enough bad press without idiots like this giving how-to instructions to the masses, and promoting (if not also selling) to atheletes.
</dt></dl>


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

AH1 said:


> No, not a cycling fan at all.
> Realgains
> <dl id="additionalinfo_list"><dt class="smallfont">*Occupation*:</dt><dd class="smallfont">RN and Personal trainer</dd><dt class="smallfont">*Country*:</dt><dd class="smallfont">Abu Dhabi</dd><dt>He posts about using and advising on use in any forum that has a place for discussing performance enhancing drugs, Bodybuilding.com, steroidology.com, elitefitnness.com (bodybuilding), anabolicminds.co, to name a few. Also an admitted user. Cycling gets enough bad press without idiots like this giving how-to instructions to the masses, and promoting (if not also selling) to atheletes.
> </dt></dl>


So what? If you don't want to know the mechanics of doping so you can hide your head in the sand and pretend there is not a problem then don't read any of his posts. Knowledge of the details gives a better understanding of what you are seeing when you watch pro cycling.

The sport has a bit more of a problem that bad press.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> You get what you give. If I find one post you've ever made where you didn't insult me, I'll be sure to point it out, so you can go back and edit it to add one. The vitriol that spews from your keyboard is pretty revealing of your character.
> 
> Interesting how Realgains hasn't jumped to your defense, despite your request. I guess he sees what we all see, which is that while you may be able to throw around lingo and link to a few studies, you don't really know what you are talking about. Like I told you before, just because I read a lot of books about flying planes, doesn't mean I can actually fly one, and I certainly can't call myself a Pilot.


Please find one of my posts where I called you a poseur or petulant child? Disagreeing with your position is not an insult. If you equate flying a plane to doping in Pro Cycling then it is clear you do not understand the issue.

You have been embarrassed so you are acting out by calling names, it is to be expected.


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## AH1 (May 26, 2008)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> So what? If you don't want to know the mechanics of doping so you can hide your head in the sand and pretend there is not a problem then don't read any of his posts. Knowledge of the details gives a better understanding of what you are seeing when you watch pro cycling.
> 
> The sport has a bit more of a problem that bad press.


I know the mechanics of doping, as a Physician I also know the negative effects it has on the body, particularly young athletes. I think you're hiding your head in the sand if you think this guy is posting here out of benevolence or love of ANY sport. Knowledge of professional sports (cycling in this case) and drug use, doesn't necessarily require how-to guides, cocktails, how to avoid detection or actual dosage regimens.


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## WeakMite (Feb 20, 2005)

*If you're interested, Google's still got it...*



filtersweep said:


> why is the post gone? I caught the original and came back for an update--- it was one of the more sensible posts in this sub-forum.


As of Monday 5p eastern US time google's cache of this thread still shows Realgains original post. I don't want to post the URL here out of respect to RBR's moderators (assuming that they were the ones that requested Realgains remove it originally) .


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

http://www.steroidreport.com/2008/07/23/blood-oxygen-carriers-and-epo-mimetic-peptides/

HGH, IGF-1 and Actovegin are pretty much the minimum that riders take. Ok…a few might just be on HGH because after all HGH converts in the liver to IGF-1. NONE of these drugs can be dectected…

[...]

Now for a one day classic they just come to controls with a 49% hematocrit. They can get there with blood doping or Dynepo use (human identical epo) After morning controls they have about an hour, and sometimes a little more, to blood dope. Units of their own blood are slammed into them with blood pumps. You can infuse a litre of packed cells in about an hour with no issue. This is at least 3 units of pure red cells. This will boost your hematocrit by at least 5% and sometimes 8-9%! The top riders then line up at the starting line with a 55-59% hematocrit!!!

After the race the extra blood is taken out, the plasma is spun off and the red cells are frozen as above. They end up with a 50% hematocrit. Alternatively they can just bleed the extra blood out of you until you are at 50%.

[...]

In grand tours you have to pass morning controls with no more than a 50% hematocrit, just like for any race, so they either take the extra blood out of you after the stage and save for re-infusion after morning controls, or they simply jack you with IV saline and volume expanders like Hespan right before morning controls so your hematocrit is diluted to 49-50%. You still have the same O2 carrying capacity that you had at say 56% …the blood is just diluted down. This extra fluid also comes in handy in the stage.

If you blood dope for any length of time you must supplement with very tiny doses of epo and only via the IV route. Blood doping shuts down your own red cell production so you will have next to zero retics (immature red cells) in you …and if control sees this they will know you are blood doping.


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## Don Duende (Sep 13, 2007)

What is Actovegin?


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## Exciton (Aug 8, 2008)

Realgains,

You seem to know quite a bit about doping. 
I am wondering how much would the performance increase for a good rider, say elite amateur, if he starts taking EPO? How much faster would a such rider be able to climb for instance the Alpe d'Huez?
Any clue?

Cheers,


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

Exciton said:


> Realgains,
> 
> You seem to know quite a bit about doping.
> I am wondering how much would the performance increase for a good rider, say elite amateur, if he starts taking EPO? How much faster would a such rider be able to climb for instance the Alpe d'Huez?
> ...


Jacking crit from the very typical aerbic athletes 39-43% crit to 50% will give most men at 12% increase in sustainable power. That doesn't sound like much until you realise that this will allow you to hold your 5 minute VO2 repeats power for a bloody hour(pun intended 
Also, repeatability goes through the roof...you literally recover from a very hard effort in seconds as opposed to minutes.

Most guys can get a 15% increase at 52-55% with some really hard training.
At 55-60% some guys can get 20%!!!

Not everyone repsonds the same though.....epo use or blood doping does not "even the playing field".....evidence of this is seen in Armstrong who had only an 82 VO2 max(good but not great) without his crit being jacked.....after full jacking he was a unstopable machine. My guess is he got a 20% increase in sustainable power and a huge boost to his VO2 max. Of course Ferarri had the whole package for him so his perfromance gain was not just due to a jacked crit, although this has BY FAR the biggest impact on performance.

As an aside....if it was not for Eddy Mercyx getting Ferrari to see Lance then Lance would have never have been able to see Farrair at all.

Lets say your functional threshold power is 375 watts at 70 kilo's. That's pretty damn good indeed. Now add even 10% and you get over 410 watts !

If a talented rider is jacked to 55% then a VERY taleneted rider has no chance in hell...he would be dropped on the first decent climb or totally destroyed in a TT.

So for so called "clean" riders to ride anywhere near Ricco and others up a mountain pass for even 20 minutes they would have to at at least 49-50% crit.

Times up a climb like Alpe d'Huez jacked at 55-60% are what you see in Pantani's record and Armstrongs second.....literally minutes ahead of very talented climbers jacked to 49-50%.

Cheers


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## Exciton (Aug 8, 2008)

Realgains said:


> Jacking crit from the very typical aerbic athletes 39-43% crit to 50% will give most men at 12% increase in sustainable power. That doesn't sound like much until you realise that this will allow you to hold your 5 minute VO2 repeats power for a bloody hour(pun intended
> Also, repeatability goes through the roof...you literally recover from a very hard effort in seconds as opposed to minutes.
> 
> Most guys can get a 15% increase at 52-55% with some really hard training.
> ...


No wonder so many riders have been doped if this is the kind of effect you can get.
A performance increase of 20% means that an Alpe d'Huez time of 50 minutes is reduced to 41:40 !


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

lookrider said:


> http://www.steroidreport.com/2008/07/23/blood-oxygen-carriers-and-epo-mimetic-peptides/
> 
> 
> After the race the extra blood is taken out, the plasma is spun off and the red cells are frozen as above. They end up with a 50% hematocrit. Alternatively they can just bleed the extra blood out of you until you are at 50%.


 This can't work, If you boost hematocrit concentrations up to 50+% there is no way to draw off the concentration after the fact. The percentage is by volume, if you draw off blood you reduce blood volume but you don't change the concentration of hematocrit by volume. The rider would still test high.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

davidka said:


> This can't work, If you boost hematocrit concentrations up to 50+% there is no way to draw off the concentration after the fact. The percentage is by volume, if you draw off blood you reduce blood volume but you don't change the concentration of hematocrit by volume. The rider would still test high.



The body immediately senses the loss of blood volume when you take blood out. The body will quite amazingly pull fluid into the circulation as a result, to make up for the loss in volume, and the crit will drop. This is all compensated for very quickly. Not only that but the riders are given IV saline or ringers lactate.


Cheers


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## Exciton (Aug 8, 2008)

Realgains said:


> Lets say your functional threshold power is 375 watts at 70 kilo's. That's pretty damn good indeed. Now add even 10% and you get over 410 watts !


Are there legal ways (besides training) of increasing your crit and/or FTP that you know of?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Exciton said:


> Are there legal ways (besides training) of increasing your crit and/or FTP that you know of?


My understanding is that training typically lowers your hematocrit because it stimulates plasma expansion but not an increase in red blood cells.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> My understanding is that training typically lowers your hematocrit because it stimulates plasma expansion but not an increase in red blood cells.


True. Also when under great stress your body slows or shuts down some functions, hence Damsgaard's studies showing the Hct dropping 2-6 percentage points during a GT


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