# How would the UCI handle the new Speedo suit?



## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

Hypothetically speaking of course. 

I'm guessing with all the speed that its adding, they would have banned it by now. I'm guessing the decision would come down just before the swimmer steps up to the platform. Afterall, innovation and timeliness be damned.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Hate to go there, but I think there are other reasons why the Swimmers are breaking every record out there.

That suit ain't shaving 3 seconds off a world record. Anyway, it's the same idea as some of the new TT skin suits, with the dimpled surface and all. So I'd say that UCI does not care one bit.


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

But if they can draw a correlation between the new TT suits and improved times, I'd imagine they'd start to care. Remember the mantis?


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## UK rider (Aug 19, 2004)

Apparently, the reason Nicole Cooke's team kit looked darker than the other GB member's, was because it was a tt skin-suit.

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/Cookes_secret_was_the_skinsuit_article_265375.html


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Why should we care so much about suit technology. Unless it gives the athlete a direct increase in speed (ie, jet packs on the back) who cares?


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

One word: tradition. It honors former athletes who set records without the aid of the suit.

I



jsedlak said:


> Why should we care so much about suit technology. Unless it gives the athlete a direct increase in speed (ie, jet packs on the back) who cares?


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## UK rider (Aug 19, 2004)

filtersweep said:


> One word: tradition. It honors former athletes who set records without the aid of the suit.
> 
> I


a slippery slope though,
you could argue against any new technology that way, maybe.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

crumjack said:


> Hypothetically speaking of course.


Hypothetically speaking, they should all be nude. Advertisers would love the ratings.

The men, they would hate it. Shrinkage.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Einstruzende said:


> Hate to go there, but I think there are other reasons why the Swimmers are breaking every record out there.
> 
> That suit ain't shaving 3 seconds off a world record. Anyway, it's the same idea as some of the new TT skin suits, with the dimpled surface and all. So I'd say that UCI does not care one bit.


Well there was at least one occasion recently where the UCI did ban something radically different in cycling. 
Back in 2000 the UCI did ban all bikes that did not conform to the diamond shaped frame, thus effectively putting the nail in the coffin of small companies such as Softride.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

MG537 said:


> Well there was at least one occasion recently where the UCI did ban something radically different in cycling.
> Back in 2000 the UCI did ban all bikes that did not conform to the diamond shaped frame, thus effectively putting the nail in the coffin of small companies such as Softride.


I'm not saying the UCI doesn't care about anything, just seemingly not dimpled time trial suits. They banned the super man TT position too, and that definitely seemed to have a big effect on times.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

UCi would let the ASO decide for everyone. (sorry) Its nice to have at least some restraint in technology. When I see pro golfers hit the ball 380yards on a slight downslope, its making everthing obsolete and comparisons difficult. There are some cool advances in bikes but its nice to see the bike basically looks the same, right? I mean, only one person has been faster than Lemond in the TT, I think thats unbelievable given the tech nowadays, but that might be a thread of its own.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

jsedlak said:


> Why should we care so much about suit technology. Unless it gives the athlete a direct increase in speed (ie, jet packs on the back) who cares?


The suits _do_ give a direct increase in speed. For one, they act like a girdle and actually make the swimmer's body more hydrodynamic.

It's obvious (I think) that hand paddles and swimfins shouldn't be allowed in swimming. These suits are in the same category.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

pretender said:


> The suits _do_ give a direct increase in speed. For one, they act like a girdle and actually make the swimmer's body more hydrodynamic.
> 
> It's obvious (I think) that hand paddles and swimfins shouldn't be allowed in swimming. These suits are in the same category.


Especially since few people can get their hands on them.



It would be as if Zipp were the sole manufacturer of disc wheels, and they only sold their goods to the few teams they directly sponsered.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Room 1201 said:


> Especially since few people can get their hands on them.
> 
> It would be as if Zipp were the sole manufacturer of disc wheels, and they only sold their goods to the few teams they directly sponsered.


IMO it goes even beyond that. There still _is_ the idea that a sport has certain characteristics, and spending a half hour squeezing into a titanium suit just doesn't jibe with the spirit of swimming.

(BTW Speedo is offering the suits free to all Olympic swimmers, regardless of who their suit sponsor is.)

In speedskating, they introduced clap skates, broke a ton of records, then realized that they had changed the nature of the sport, and outlawed them. Now they skate a bit slower.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

pretender said:


> IMO it goes even beyond that. There still _is_ the idea that a sport has certain characteristics, and spending a half hour squeezing into a titanium suit just doesn't jibe with the spirit of swimming.
> 
> (BTW Speedo is offering the suits free to all Olympic swimmers, regardless of who their suit sponsor is.)
> 
> In speedskating, they introduced clap skates, broke a ton of records, then realized that they had changed the nature of the sport, and outlawed them. Now they skate a bit slower.


How forward thinking of them. 

Considering for the last year, competitive swimmers everywhere have been wanting to pay the $600+ premium to get them-and there weren't any to buy, as they couldn't make them fast enough.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Room 1201 said:


> How forward thinking of them.
> 
> Considering for the last year, competitive swimmers everywhere have been wanting to pay the $600+ premium to get them-and there weren't any to buy, as they couldn't make them fast enough.


Perhaps Speedo was worried their cash cow would be outlawed in competitive swimming, so they made it easier to get for the biggest event. That would be my guess anyway.


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## Xray_ed (Mar 17, 2005)

dr hoo said:


> The men, they would hate it. Shrinkage.


No they wouldn't cause it would minimize drag!


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

Xray_ed said:


> No they wouldn't cause it would minimize drag!


Mine would maximize drag.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigmig19 said:


> UCi would let the ASO decide for everyone. (sorry) Its nice to have at least some restraint in technology. When I see pro golfers hit the ball 380yards on a slight downslope, its making everthing obsolete and comparisons difficult. There are some cool advances in bikes but its nice to see the bike basically looks the same, right? I mean, only one person has been faster than Lemond in the TT, I think thats unbelievable given the tech nowadays, but that might be a thread of its own.


The only comparisons that matter is current technology vs. current technology. If the swimmers of yesteryear had had these suits, they would have worn them without pause. I couldn't care less what Mark Spitz wore. Unless he is racing against current swimmers in modern suits in a high tech pool, it's irrelevant. He did what he did with the technology available to him at the time. That doesn't mean we freeze it to "honor" him.

Nobody wants to go back to what Dorothea Douglass Chambers used to wear when she won Wimbledon seven times.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

pretender said:


> In speedskating, they introduced clap skates, broke a ton of records, then realized that they had changed the nature of the sport, and outlawed them. Now they skate a bit slower.


They never outlawed them. All records stand.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

bigmig19 said:


> I mean, only one person has been faster than Lemond in the TT, I think thats unbelievable given the tech nowadays, but that might be a thread of its own.


That was on a straight, flat (slightly downhill, no bumps) course with a good tailwind.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Susan Walker said:


> They never outlawed them. All records stand.


Oops my bad.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

crumjack said:


> Hypothetically speaking of course.


Nothing hypothetical about it. See this article from 2003: http://velonews.com/article/4694

The UCI regulations are open to interpretation with respect to texture of clothing. From http://www.uci.ch/includes/asp/getTarget.asp?type=FILE&id=34033



> 1.3.033
> 
> It shall be forbidden to wear non-essential items of clothing or items designed to reduce air resistance.
> 
> ...


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

Susan Walker said:


> Nothing hypothetical about it. See this article from 2003: http://velonews.com/article/4694
> 
> The UCI regulations are open to interpretation with respect to texture of clothing. From http://www.uci.ch/includes/asp/getTarget.asp?type=FILE&id=34033


Thanks for the info. I was thinking I was all wet (bad pun, sorry) because I could only think of examples where rider safety was cited (superman and mantis positions, disc brakes for cross, etc). I do recall rules against additional farings on helmets and humps under the jersey that are not camelbaks.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Susan Walker said:


> Nothing hypothetical about it. See this article from 2003: http://velonews.com/article/4694
> 
> The UCI regulations are open to interpretation with respect to texture of clothing. From http://www.uci.ch/includes/asp/getTarget.asp?type=FILE&id=34033


Interesting situation then. By what loophole are TT helments and dimpled suits allowed?


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

Not sure what loophole allows TT helmets, but I do remember a couple years ago when they redefined what a TT helmet could be... something about safety and being more than just an aero shell.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

Einstruzende said:


> Interesting situation then. By what loophole are TT helments and dimpled suits allowed?


"Non-essential". Helmet and suit are essential. The idea of the rule is that nothing may be worn/fitted of which _the sole purpose_ is reducing air drag.

The wording is far from exhaustive, it's prolly not even comprehensive, so yeah: there may be other interpretations.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

Einstruzende said:


> Hate to go there, but I think there are other reasons why the Swimmers are breaking every record out there.
> 
> That suit ain't shaving 3 seconds off a world record. Anyway, it's the same idea as some of the new TT skin suits, with the dimpled surface and all. So I'd say that UCI does not care one bit.


No kidding. I think everyone is being particularly naive if they think a swimming suit is making that much difference.

They used to talk of past riders who suddenly became Tour champions saying it was their new "training" or because they lost 10lbs. Yeah right. I think the Olympic committee needs better drug testing.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

brianmcg said:


> No kidding. I think everyone is being particularly naive if they think a swimming suit is making that much difference.
> 
> They used to talk of past riders who suddenly became Tour champions saying it was their new "training" or because they lost 10lbs. Yeah right. I think the Olympic committee needs better drug testing.



Call me naive, but I think it's entirely possible that the reduced hydrodynamic drag caused by a combination of suit and pool design is responsible for the multiple WR's in Beijing. 

When considering cycling TT's we obsess about aerodynamics, mostly because the force of drag increases by the square of the velocity. This is for air, with a fluid viscosity of 17.4E-6 Pa-s. In water at 20C, the fluid viscosity is 1E-3 Pa-s, 2 orders of magnitude greater. Simply, as important as aero is for a cyclist moving through air, it's 100 times more important for a swimmer moving through water.

EDIT: Actually, if the cyclist is going 30mph (13.4m/s), and the swimmer is Michael Phelps in the 200 free (1.9m/s), the relative difference is only about 8.29, since the velocity term is squared. Still, the point stands.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

justinb said:


> Call me naive, but I think it's entirely possible that the reduced hydrodynamic drag caused by a combination of suit and pool design is responsible for the multiple WR's in Beijing.


I don't think it's naive at all.

If there were some alternative explanation (i.e. a change in doping policy, some new undetectable RBC enhancer, etc) then it would make sense to doubt the effect of the suits. But AFAIK there is no competing explanation for the dramatic (unprecedented?) number of WRs being broken.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

pretender said:


> If there were some alternative explanation (i.e. a change in doping policy, some new undetectable RBC enhancer, etc) then it would make sense to doubt the effect of the suits. But AFAIK there is no competing explanation for the dramatic (unprecedented?) number of WRs being broken.


There certainly have been a lot of records. Old WRs are being torn apart by swimmers coming 5th and 6th in the finals. I am sure the suits are extremely important (apparently more so for free and backstroke, not quite sure why). Another reason (especially for backstroke and breastroke) is that some of rules have changed (mostly around what is permissible on turns). Also, the top athletes are competing against each other more - more "world cup-type" races and the like. Further, the pool is very "fast", with extremely efficient "gutters" (they aren't really gutters) to minimize the surface turbulence and it is very deep (3m uniform depth, I think) which helps as well.


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## Art853 (May 30, 2003)

Articles listing factors contributing to the breaking of swimming records. Sponsorships have allowed the ability to be a professional swimmer instead of retiring after college. Consider the difference between professional and collegiate abilities in other sports. The refinement of the dolphin kick is another contributor along with rule changes about turns. Goggles were not allowed when Spitz was racing. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/sports/olympics/12records.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sports/olympics/13age.html?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Yep, the pool was designed specifically to be fast. 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93478073



> The Water Cube pool also has 10 lanes instead of eight. Waves churned up during races don't bounce back into the swimming lanes. Waves that reach the sides are siphoned off by perforated gutters.
> 
> "It's physics and it's not sports, but it makes sense," says Christine Brennan, a veteran of 13 Olympics and an Olympics columnist for USA Today. "You make a deeper and a wider pool, and you ... give all of those waves and all of that splashing and all of that moving water a chance to move away from the swimmers and get out of their way, which makes them go faster. It's as simple as that."
> 
> ...


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Fast (i.e. deep and guttered) pools are not that new. Same with the rule changes (possible exception, a single dolphin kick is allowed on each turn in breast stroke).

AFAIK the recent rash of WRs can only be attributed to the suits. Similar to when clap skates came out in speed skating.


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

I remember a year ago sitting a doctors office reading an article in Popular something (mechanics, science) about all the building going on for the Olympics. I recall that in the article they made mention of the special pool design and how it would result in the shattering of several world records.


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## Art853 (May 30, 2003)

Swimming becoming a professional sport has the greatest influence on the increase in speed bringing increased sophistication in training techniques and time available to train and recover. Also the world's population has almost doubled since 1972 and, more importantly, the number of competitive swimmers has increased much more. Records will continue to fall as a result.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

funktekk said:


> I remember a year ago sitting a doctors office reading an article in Popular something (mechanics, science) about all the building going on for the Olympics. I recall that in the article they made mention of the special pool design and how it would result in the shattering of several world records.


It's wide (10 lanes) and deep (3 metres) and that, and some other features, cuts down the amount of turbulence experienced by the swimmers.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

justinb said:


> Call me naive, but I think it's entirely possible that the reduced hydrodynamic drag caused by a combination of suit and pool design is responsible for the multiple WR's in Beijing.
> 
> When considering cycling TT's we obsess about aerodynamics, mostly because the force of drag increases by the square of the velocity. This is for air, with a fluid viscosity of 17.4E-6 Pa-s. In water at 20C, the fluid viscosity is 1E-3 Pa-s, 2 orders of magnitude greater. Simply, as important as aero is for a cyclist moving through air, it's 100 times more important for a swimmer moving through water.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, if the cyclist is going 30mph (13.4m/s), and the swimmer is Michael Phelps in the 200 free (1.9m/s), the relative difference is only about 8.29, since the velocity term is squared. Still, the point stands.


:thumbsup: 

I love physics. 

Do you think that the dimples in TT suits really make that much of a difference? I've always been under the impression that dimples could only help an object that is spinning- such as a golf ball or a wheel.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Andrea138 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I love physics.
> 
> Do you think that the dimples in TT suits really make that much of a difference? I've always been under the impression that dimples could only help an object that is spinning- such as a golf ball or a wheel.


Air flow is air flow, right? It may just be a magnitude of improvement factor- i.e., wheels/golf balls are going fast enough that the improvement is noticeable.


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

I've read also that vents clear air just above the water's suface of clorine fumes, allowing the swimmers to take in more oxygen with each breath.


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

mendo said:


> I've read also that vents clear air just above the water's suface of clorine fumes, allowing the swimmers to take in more oxygen with each breath.


pools...vents...what's next a tow rope?


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

The Weasel said:


> pools...vents...what's next a tow rope?


genetic manipulation for webbed fingers/toes.


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## Kestreljr (Jan 10, 2007)

mendo said:


> I've read also that vents clear air just above the water's suface of clorine fumes, allowing the swimmers to take in more oxygen with each breath.


where did you read that?


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

crumjack said:


> Hypothetically speaking of course.
> 
> I'm guessing with all the speed that its adding, they would have banned it by now. I'm guessing the decision would come down just before the swimmer steps up to the platform. Afterall, innovation and timeliness be damned.


lycra is lyrca


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

crumjack said:


> I'm guessing with all the speed that its adding, they would have banned it by now. I'm guessing the decision would come down just before the swimmer steps up to the platform. Afterall, innovation and timeliness be damned.


It should be banned. Swimming should be a simple sport. When you have the situation of swimmers worried about not being able to compete because they do not have the right swimsuit then there is something seriously wrong. That was exactly the situation with regards to swimming in Japan during the run up to the Olympics.

Sports should place the emphasis on the athlete--not technological development by his sponsors. If you want to watch hundreds of millions of dollars spent on research and development then watch Formula 1.


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

New Zealand are wearing some pretty radical looking skinsuits in the pursuit events and Great Britain have invested a great deal of money in their's as well.

But is it all that essential? It still comes down to the athlete. Plenty of track and field athletes are wearing high tech suits to reduce their drag and then you have Usain Bolt wearing a baggy singlet that looks a couple of sizes too big, running with an untied shoe lace and making the rest of the field look like chumps.


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## burkley (Apr 18, 2008)

Tugboat said:


> then you have Usain Bolt wearing a baggy singlet that looks a couple of sizes too big, running with an untied shoe lace and making the rest of the field look like chumps.


I'm a bit disappointed Bolt did not go all out, to honor and respect his own greatness. He probably figures he's young and can stomp the WR any time he chooses.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

burkley said:


> I'm a bit disappointed Bolt did not go all out, to honor and respect his own greatness. He probably figures he's young and can stomp the WR any time he chooses.


He made it very clear during the post-race interview, he didn't care about the time, just about winning the race.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

Kestreljr said:


> where did you read that?


google (welcome to 2008) 
http://outside.away.com/outside/culture/200808/beijing-china-olympics-guide-1.html
http://www.zimbio.com/Zhu+Qianwei/articles/3/Olympic+Trivia+Water+Cube+built+speed
http://www.statesman.com/SPORTS/content/sports/stories/other/08/08/0808olyswim.html


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

burkley said:


> I'm a bit disappointed Bolt did not go all out, to honor and respect his own greatness. He probably figures he's young and can stomp the WR any time he chooses.


He probably figured he can make boatloads of money on the circuit if he breaks it once or twice again. See Bubka's endless 1 cm improvements. But I do believe his main reason: he was there to win the gold. Records will be broken, medals keep.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

crumjack said:


> Hypothetically speaking of course.
> 
> I'm guessing with all the speed that its adding, they would have banned it by now. I'm guessing the decision would come down just before the swimmer steps up to the platform. Afterall, innovation and timeliness be damned.


the pool depth is different too.. that's an advantage.

throw away ALL WR's


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