# Who's the best? CycleArt vs. Joe Bell for refinishing



## brewster

So, I want to restore a vintage Italian steel frame with a solid metallic color with contrasting white lugs. I've narrowed the list to these top candidates for the job; CycleArt or Joe Bell. 

These are my preferences in order:
1. Quality of work
2. Price
3. Delivery time

Any recommendations either way? I'd like to hear experiences and see some photos if you have any.

brewster


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## JaeP

My vote: Joe Bell.
He's the official painter for Richard Sach's and Vanilla. What more can I say. He's a nice guy to boot. When I had my '99 LeMond Zurich repainted just a single color he asked if I wanted a set of LeMond decals on my bike. He had some laying around the shop and he put them on. I had 6 of my bikes painted by him 5 were just a simple one color job. The other, well I bought it with a Joe Bell paint job. 

The bike is my beloved Schwinn Wheaties Paramount.


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## Dave Hickey

JaeP said:


> My vote: Joe Bell.
> He's the official painter for Richard Sach's and Vanilla. What more can I say. He's a nice guy to boot. When I had my '99 LeMond Zurich repainted just a single color he asked if I wanted a set of LeMond decals on my bike. He had some laying around the shop and he put them on. I had 6 of my bikes painted by him 5 were just a simple one color job. The other, well I bought it with a Joe Bell paint job.
> 
> The bike is my beloved Schwinn Wheaties Paramount.



Dang..I love that bike..... +1 on Joe Bell..My JP Weigle is painted by Bell


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## Kuma601

That's a beautiful Paramount.


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## curlybike

Joe Bell work is incredible, I built up a Fuso frame that he did in black with antique gold leaf flames. Wowsers! Top notch work


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## Richard

Joe Bell does stellar work, but so does Jim Cunningham at CyclArt. I don't think you can go wrong with either.


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## Mapei

The way I see it, go to Joe Bell if you want your bike to look as if it were painted by Michelangelo. Go to CycleArt if you want your bike to look as if it's come fresh from the bike builder's hands...on a very, very, very good day. Putting it another way, CycleArt makes a bike look authentic. Joe Bell makes them look like they've descended from heaven.

Anyway, my wife had her 1980's Pogliaghi repainted by CycleArt. It was done in a timely fashion. And done beautifully, too.


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## Fivethumbs

I had JB paint a fork for me. Great job. Done just about when he said it would be. Fair price. I would go to him again.


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## abstrait

While he is not an option listed above, and some debate his taste among other things, I will say that Brian Baylis should also be considered as one of the top frame painters out there. His attention to detail is extraordinary and the jobs I've seen look better than factory, perhaps even better than a few I've seen from above. Granted, I have no idea how much of a backlog exists or if he's even taking orders these days. I just thought he deserved a mention based on samples I've seen.


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## 89dk

I've never used either---but anyone who sooo perfectly lines up that Paramount's color line from the top tube thru the pump and down to the front fork deserves serious consideration. That's pride in workmanship there. NICE!!

dk


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## brewster

Brian Baylis duely noted. I offered JB and CA since they are the most well known to me. But, not saying that there aren't others should be considered in the same quality pool. Thanks for all the comments, keep them coming.

I'm a little curious how you the customers handle the decal conversation with the painters. Of course, with something like the Wheaties Paramount, they know exactly what it should look like, but with others, how much direction do you give them? I suppose some just say, "I want it red" and let them figure out the rest. Myself, I'd be rather particular and may resort to some Photoshop work to illustrate to them what I'm after.

brewster


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## JChasse

JaeP said:


> My vote: Joe Bell.
> He's the official painter for Richard Sach's and Vanilla. What more can I say.


I'd vote Joe Bell, too. And that Paramount is stunning.

But are you sure about Vanilla? Website says his paint is done by COAT in OR.


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## JaeP

JChasse said:


> I'd vote Joe Bell, too. And that Paramount is stunning.
> 
> But are you sure about Vanilla? Website says his paint is done by COAT in OR.


That may be true. The last time I was at Joe Bell was two years ago. I was picking up my re-painted track bike. He was prepping a Vanilla frame. We started talking and he said he was now painting Vanilla. I could be wrong.


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## Maybeck

Cyclart has too many rules. Like putting a manditory "painted by cyclart" decal on the chainstay. To me that looks terrible on a vintage restoration.

Joe Bell's work is pretty impressive.

I've had Baylis do a few (have a frame down there now). I would not send him anything I needed back in a hurry, but the wait has always been worth it. He's a great guy as well.


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## Sacha White

JaeP said:


> That may be true. The last time I was at Joe Bell was two years ago. I was picking up my re-painted track bike. He was prepping a Vanilla frame. We started talking and he said he was now painting Vanilla. I could be wrong.


 Joe Bell is awesome and has done great work for us in the past.

Vanillas are being painted here in Portland by COAT custom paint and design house.


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## JaeP

Sacha White said:


> Joe Bell is awesome and has done great work for us in the past.
> 
> Vanillas are being painted here in Portland by COAT custom paint and design house.


Ooops. I stand corrected.


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## theomdude

*You Can't Go Wrong with Joe Bell*

I have only one bike, a 1988 Holland in Reynolds 653 with some custom features, and it's going in to Joe Bell for its 4th paint job (not counting painting a new fork in 2003) as soon as he has an opening. Yes, I crash a lot. Joe's attention to detail (those tiny contrasting color accents in the lug windows!) is beyond reproach. When our first experiment with a pink pearl coat over blue to get an electric blue effect didn't work, he repainted it for free without a blink. He went outside the box to non-Imron and found a genuine Ferrari Red for it on the last repaint. I have no experience with Cycleart but I agree that if they have a requirement that their ad has to appear even on classic repaints, that's tacky, but I'll admit I consider the JB on my left chainstay is for bragging rights. Brian Baylis has a stellar reputation and if Joe hadn't been the first gun to lay a coat on my Holland, I wouldn't hesitate to give him the job. Right now (07-28-2010) Joe quoted me a three month lead time on my repaint. I'll suck it up and wait, because I know it will be worth it.


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## LejeuneCdM

Both JB and CyclArt are excellent choices. But why are you limiting yourself to them? Southwest Frameworks in Dallas does excellent work as does Franklin Frame in Ohio. SW did my Merckx Corsa










Franklin Frame did my Lejeune Pro


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## josephr

all are awesome bikes! 

On your Eddy Mercx, how did they handle the decals,etc? I'm looking at having my Bianchi redone, but a few of the decals on the seat tube are trashed from bike racks, etc. Do they airbrush those back on if they cannot find the original decals?


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## theomdude

He probably was limiting himself to local guns in the Southern California area. That's why I was surprised he wasn't considering Brian Baylis. I live on the West side of L. A. and I don't ship my frame to Spring Valley. I pop it in the trunk, take a weekend in San Diego and have a long chat with Joe. He's very patient with us poor dudes agonizing over the Imron color chart, considering how much in demand he is. Face-to-face counselling is an important part of the process. He's going to have to do it again with me soon, as I'm considering green this go-round.


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## buck-50

never used him, but I've seen his work and it's pretty stunning...

http://www.keithandersoncycles.com/Keith_Anderson.html


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## theomdude

Thanks for posting that link. I knew the Northwest was chock full of great bicycle peeps but I had not seen Keith's work. I'm always looking for new ideas. We were up that way this May and I might have dropped in for a visit.


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## ciclisto

*My 2c on paint jobs*

Living in San Diego I have access to Joe Bell, Brian Baylis and CycleArt...My opinion, 
Having a 1988 Holland Steel painted by Joe in pearl white with gold pinstripes and a red panel with black logos lined in matching gold. His best job now 22 years old and ridden al this time although never in rain.. it still looks brand new ( i wax it a lot) always asked how many times i painted it (only the first one) he also painted a damaged Merckx corsa 01 I bought off ebay in belgium, also white pearl and for $200 he matched the damage then sanded off all the decals and recleared it.. looks like a $300,000 ferrari paint job. I think he is the best have been to the shop and watched them they are perfectionists period!!. I can not feel the decals the sign of a stellar job.
That said I have seen CycleArt they are more flamboyant and do excellent work just prefer Joe..he is a great guy... Also personally know Brian Baylis he does paint as art,, his are perfection also, he likes some unconventional stuff (i.e. gold leaf etc.) would like his paint on one of mine,,, i just prefer Joe Bell,, Richard Sachs is not dummy and he can have anyone he chooses..........none are substandard and to mention with factory paint is ridiculous
with this group...........Joe Bell is stellar chip resistant long lasting perfection.


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## Maybeck

buck-50 said:


> never used him, but I've seen his work and it's pretty stunning...
> 
> http://www.keithandersoncycles.com/Keith_Anderson.html


He's done a few for me. Top quality, and his turn around is much (much!) faster than any of the other guys doing this level of work.


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## theomdude

You won't get any argument out of me. Your frame must have come out of the shop the same time Bill was building my 1988. I don't need to say anything other than that I am going back to Joe for this repair and repaint. That's endorsement.


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## moschika

i'll throw www.velocolour.com into the mix in this thread. noah did a great job on my waterford cx-bike, lug lined and all. he was also very responsive to emails. the cost of shipping to toronto from the SF bay area was no more then shipping to the other side of the bay. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=2272696#poststop


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## dombey19

Let me put in a plug for Waterford, who does restorations on Waterfords, Paramounts, and a number of other brands. I have a 1990 Paramount OS that developed a spot of rust from perspiration dripping onto the cable guides. They rotated the top tube so that the guides were no longer on the top, but at the 7 o'clock position. Then they repainted it with a red/white/blue fade to match a diagram I sent them. They then replaced the decals and clearcoated it. The clearcloat is so thick that after 20,000 miles there is not a scratch on this bike. I think to scratch it I would have to slide it across the pavement. Just the usual bumps and knocks don't affect it. I would use them again in a heartbeat.


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## raleighgranprix

> Let me put in a plug for Waterford, who does restorations on Waterfords, Paramounts, and a number of other brands. I have a 1990 Paramount OS that developed a spot of rust from perspiration dripping onto the cable guides. They rotated the top tube so that the guides were no longer on the top, but at the 7 o'clock position. Then they repainted it with a red/white/blue fade to match a diagram I sent them. They then replaced the decals and clearcoated it. The clearcloat is so thick that after 20,000 miles there is not a scratch on this bike. I think to scratch it I would have to slide it across the pavement. Just the usual bumps and knocks don't affect it. I would use them again in a heartbeat.


See, this is the way it should be though is not always practical but clearly, the way it is in the UK, whoever the bike came from should and will totally refurbish it if it was their make.

Brooks does it with their saddles, ah, the good ol' days.


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## Richard

Bayliss, Bell, and Jim Cunningham (CyclArt) are all top notch. I had my Bob Jackson 753 done by CyclArt back in the '80's and it was drop dead gorgeous (too bad it broke).

Jim was great to deal with. I was recently at the SoCal Custom Builders Show and saw new examples of all their work. You just couldn't go wrong with any of them.


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## Phaseshift

I know this is an old thread, I was thinking of getting my frame repainted to the original color. I live in LA so Joe Bell and CyclArt is nice drive down south, how much can one expect to spend to get a frame repainted?


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## High Gear

*Kieth Anderson does some of the greatest work I have ever seen.*

Take a peek.

Keith Anderson Cycles


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## theomdude

*Update: '88 Holland Repaint by Joe Bell and Robert Gagnon*

I posted last year about my 88 Holland. I wrecked it on the Ballona Creek bike path last summer, riding with my head up my you-know-what. For its fourth paint job (not including a new front fork) I went all out. I don't do the red mist any more (wife's orders) so I switched from Ferrari Red to British Racing Green (Imron 44413 Dark Jade) with gold Copperplate Gothic outline on the downtube and custom pinstripes by Robert Gagnon. Joe suggested the fake lug outlines on the fork, and I designed the downtube graphic and top tube stripe myself. Robert's striping on the down-tube graphic got a little lumpy, but Joe puts so much clear coat on it that it's smooth as glass. I couldn't be happier! At group rides a guy on last year's $16,000 Pinarello Dogma is just riding an old used bike, and my 24 year-old lugged steel frame beauty still gets Ooos and ahhs!


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## Quattro_Assi_07

*Cyclart = Pain in the A$$*

I've never dealt with a more unprofessional operation than Cyclart. Jim and his wife Susan were such a pain to deal with, I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy. PM me if you need the nauseating details. I can highly recommend Spectrum Powder Works in Colorado Springs. They finished the Zullo that Cyclart F'ed up. :thumbsup:


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## theomdude

*Joe Bell Only Uses Paint*

You mention Spectrum Powder Works. Does that mean they powder coat? That's a very durable finish for an off-road bike, I'm sure. 
For beauty, gloss, and depth of finish though, you can't beat the multiple-coat approach that Joe's shop employs.
Couple of caveats. 
Joe is a consumate professional and that kind of work takes time.
I follow the auto show circuit - concours d'elegance and rod shows - and if the cars in those shows got the kind of detail Joe's shop lavishes on them, the paint alone would be a million dollar proposition.
The other is that while Joe is intimately involved in the most important parts of the work - giving you all the face-to-face time it takes to leave you pleased, comfortable and satisfied that the final product will meet your desires and expectations, and the all-important prep work, he doesn't wave the gun himself, and Bob Roberson does the tube repair/replacement.
In 14 year retrospect, my frame was probable too short for me. Bob added a centimeter to my frame length, and now the bike feels more comfortable in my somewhat upright riding position. (The titanium Brooks B-17 saddle - Rivendell cycles, no longer available - in the pix has been adjusted since then.)


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## Quattro_Assi_07

Yes, it is powder coating. Please don't be so dismissive about powder coating unless you have actually seen in person the work by Spectrum. It easy for anyone to speculate about powder coating when they have not actually seen the work produced by Spectrum who are probably one of the best at custom powder coating. The beauty, depth of finish and gloss are as good as anything Bell, Baylis or Cycart can produce but it is much more durable. I have frames painted by both Bell and Baylis and thank G*d I didn't have to go through with the job by Cyclart. I went to see the work that Spectrum did in person and was so impressed I sent them two frames for finishing, the aforementioned Zullo and a Tesch S-22. The painting on my Zullo is a work of art and the guys at Spectrum were so easy to work with. The S-22 is equally as good but just a basic one color finish while the Zullo is a gorgeous pearl orange.

As soon as I finish both builds in the next week or so, I'll post detailed, close-up photos so that you and others can see how exactly how high a quality Spectrum's work is and how reasonable the cost is compared to any of the traditional liquid finishers. They are much quicker as well. I was probably almost as skeptical as you but it has certainly made a believer out of me.




theomdude said:


> You mention Spectrum Powder Works. Does that mean they powder coat? That's a very durable finish for an off-road bike, I'm sure.
> For beauty, gloss, and depth of finish though, you can't beat the multiple-coat approach that Joe's shop employs.


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## Phaseshift

theomdude said:


> You mention Spectrum Powder Works. Does that mean they powder coat? That's a very durable finish for an off-road bike, I'm sure.
> For beauty, gloss, and depth of finish though, you can't beat the multiple-coat approach that Joe's shop employs.
> Couple of caveats.
> Joe is a consumate professional and that kind of work takes time.
> I follow the auto show circuit - concours d'elegance and rod shows - and if the cars in those shows got the kind of detail Joe's shop lavishes on them, the paint alone would be a million dollar proposition.
> The other is that while Joe is intimately involved in the most important parts of the work - giving you all the face-to-face time it takes to leave you pleased, comfortable and satisfied that the final product will meet your desires and expectations, and the all-important prep work, he doesn't wave the gun himself, and Bob Roberson does the tube repair/replacement.
> In 14 year retrospect, my frame was probable too short for me. Bob added a centimeter to my frame length, and now the bike feels more comfortable in my somewhat upright riding position. (The titanium Brooks B-17 saddle - Rivendell cycles, no longer available - in the pix has been adjusted since then.)


so how much did that cost paint job cost you?


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## il sogno

Phaseshift said:


> I know this is an old thread, I was thinking of getting my frame repainted to the original color. I live in LA so Joe Bell and CyclArt is nice drive down south, how much can one expect to spend to get a frame repainted?


I got my Pogliaghi painted in 1995 at Cycle Art. They did a great job and it cost me about $250 or so.The price has probably gone up.


.


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## theomdude

Thanks for the info. I stand (actually I'm seated) corrected. 
I was probably influenced by the dismissive attitude toward powder-coating that Joe exhibited in an interview.
I suspect my preferrence is also at least partly a prejudice in favor of an older craftsman-style "technology" although it's not as though a spray booth, respirator, and catalyzed polyurethane is low-tech.
The preparation work that's so important is just as adaptable to powder-coating as to a spray nozzle.
How do they handle decals? Does their work accommodate pinstriping?


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## jr59

I don't think you can go wrong with either one.
Both Cycleart and Joe Bell do GREAT work, you won't be disappointed in either one!

Don't be in a hurry for your frame. No matter who does it!


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## Quattro_Assi_07

jr59 said:


> I don't think you can go wrong with either one.
> Both Cycleart and Joe Bell do GREAT work, you won't be disappointed in either one!
> 
> Don't be in a hurry for your frame. No matter who does it!


I can attest to the fact that Cyclart has been the worst business dealing that I have experienced EVER. If you go that route, don't say that you weren't warned. PM for full details if necessary. Both Jim and Susan Cunnigham (I presume that they are still the owners) were both a pain in the a$$, but Susan was especially. They severely lack the most basic skills of customer service as well. 

They may still put out good work (technically performed by workers) but getting a good paint job and having a great experience are two different things. If you want a great paint job AND a good experience, do not go down the path of cyclart. Period.


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## Quattro_Assi_07

theomdude said:


> Thanks for the info. I stand (actually I'm seated) corrected.
> I was probably influenced by the dismissive attitude toward powder-coating that Joe exhibited in an interview.
> I suspect my preferrence is also at least partly a prejudice in favor of an older craftsman-style "technology" although it's not as though a spray booth, respirator, and catalyzed polyurethane is low-tech.
> The preparation work that's so important is just as adaptable to powder-coating as to a spray nozzle.
> How do they handle decals? Does their work accommodate pinstriping?


 Powder coating to this degree and level takes the same kinds of skills and craftsmanship as liquid finishing. Only the medium is dry and not liquid.

You are right in the sense that the prep work must good no matter the finish.

On my Zullo, the decals were painted on using custom made masks. My decals were a combination of the original (for 1990) and Zullo's current decal, with a little artistic license on my part in adding the drop shadow. This all necessitated the use of the masks to create the decals. On the Tesch, Spectrum was able to source the original decals from the supplier who still has a cache of them.


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