# new Secteur/Apex or trade for '08 Tarmac Comp?



## sjcaguy (Jul 14, 2005)

So I recently made a stupid Craigslist purchase of a used Italian carbon road bike that totally doesn't fit me (too small in quite a few dimensions). I am coming from a commuter bike that is cheap/cheerful and didn't know better. Fortunately I've both gotten a good fit/test ride with some new bikes and have buyers lined up for the Guerciotti. 

Let me lay out my scenarios, I'd love some advice. 
Basics: 6'2", 189lbs, 29 year old male, recovering from a torn disc at L5/S1 in Nov '09. Great shape, been riding the heck out of my commuter bike (to work, the gym, grocery store, etc). Don't have plans to race, but my commuter isn't so hot for longer weekend rides, and I signed up for a 56-mile ride in Palm Springs on 1/12/11. I'll be riding for fitness, fun, and a new and healthy hobby. 

Today I test-rode at a shop that only carries Specialized. These are GREAT guys-- spent a lot of time with me, more than any of the other 5 shops I've visited. They sent me out on test-rides on 3 bikes-- two Secteurs (diff sizes) and a Roubaix, once we'd established that I need a 61cm frame. I LOVED the 2nd Secteur-- it was the bigger one, and the setup was amazing. I felt like I was IN the bike, lots of room to stretch out and find a good position, etc. The Roubaix had Apex on it, and I liked the components but found the ride...okay, but not dazzling. It certainly was smoother, but I think I was not thrilled because the setup was so perfect on the Secteur and I didn't know how awesome it was until I rode the 3rd bike. We measured the setup of the Secteur to duplicate it (center BB to saddle top, saddle setback from BB center, effective reach, and drop) and they drew me a nice schematic with all the measurements. 

I've got two potential buyers lined up for tomorrow for the Guerciotti. Buyer 1 is a cash buyer that might actually net me some profit on the deal. If I go with him, I'd buy a Secteur Elite with Apex from the shop. Buyer 2 has an '08 Tarmac Comp Compact with 105 in a 61cm size, but the shop today didn't have a big Tarmac so I don't know how it feels. Buyer 2 wants to swap the Tarmac for the Guerciotti + $450 cash to me, which would let me pay the shop I went to today for a full 2-hour custom fit (I told them I was thinking of going used), better helmet, and some new riding clothes. The shop guys said they thought either option was a good one. 

Provided the steerer tube hasn't been cut so low that I can't get an identical stack height, will the differences between the two bikes be so obvious that I can't get a similarly awesome setup on the Tarmac? If I'm not a racer, will the VERY slight differences in geometry be noticeable, or will I likely be able to get a great setup with the shop doing a custom fit? Should I go new or is a carbon frame worth the fit and setup risks inherent in buying a used bike? Comfort and a great fit are a high priority. I want to WANT to ride, and if the Secteur is the right bike, I'll be thrilled with it. I just want some advice, because I do know that carbon has it's advantages. 

Thanks!


----------



## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Read my post in BF...

Buy the Secteur if you feel it fits you the best....You already made a mistake once...PLUS! you get a full warranty


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

All things considered, I think you have an easy choice here, but you may not agree.

As you're coming to understand, fit matters most, and you already know that the 61cm Secteur's fit is near perfect. The biggest difference in the Tarmac geo is head tube length, which is 230mm's compared to the Secteur's 245. I don't know the exact stem/ spacer set up you had on the Secteur, but I'm guessing stock. This means that there's a 1.5 cm 'gap' that would have to be made up in the way of (most likely) changes to stem angle. Not a big deal, and your fitter may end up suggesting a 'flipped up' stem, but considering that you're looking at getting a pro fit, I think starting out with a bike 'out of the box' fits great, has distinct advantages to both you _and_ the fitter.

Another important consideration is buying a used CF bike, thus no warranty. I wouldn't do it, because CF can fail differently than steel or alu and not be apparent without special equipment. The likelihood is more _possible_ than _probable_, but IMO isn't worth the risk.


----------



## sjcaguy (Jul 14, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> All things considered, I think you have an easy choice here, but you may not agree.
> 
> As you're coming to understand, fit matters most, and you already know that the 61cm Secteur's fit is near perfect. The biggest difference in the Tarmac geo is head tube length, which is 230mm's compared to the Secteur's 245. I don't know the exact stem/ spacer set up you had on the Secteur, but I'm guessing stock. This means that there's a 1.5 cm 'gap' that would have to be made up in the way of (most likely) changes to stem angle. Not a big deal, and your fitter may end up suggesting a 'flipped up' stem, but considering that you're looking at getting a pro fit, I think starting out with a bike 'out of the box' fits great, has distinct advantages to both you _and_ the fitter.
> 
> Another important consideration is buying a used CF bike, thus no warranty. I wouldn't do it, because CF can fail differently than steel or alu and not be apparent without special equipment. The likelihood is more _possible_ than _probable_, but IMO isn't worth the risk.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Because of the holiday, plans to meet the buyers got pushed back, so no decision yet. 

The space/stem setup on the Secteur I loved was stock height with the stem in the -8 degree position, a bit down. The saddle-to-bar drop was 2.5cm, basically level. I haven't test-ridden the Tarmac yet, but I will before a decision is made. I want to see how it feels. I'm going to try and set the Tarmac up as close to the Secteur as I can when I ride it to see if I can make it comfortable for me. I'll use the schematic from the shop and the ability of the Specialized stems to easily move up (they have those shims, I think) and see if I can get a good fit on it, close to the one from the shop. I figure it's worth a shot. 

All that said, your advice re: warranty and condition is excellent and worth considering. Thanks again. I'm leaning toward the Secteur, but I at least want to see the Tarmac that the seller has available.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

sjcaguy said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Because of the holiday, plans to meet the buyers got pushed back, so no decision yet.
> 
> The space/stem setup on the Secteur I loved was stock height with the stem in the -8 degree position, a bit down. The saddle-to-bar drop was 2.5cm, basically level. I haven't test-ridden the Tarmac yet, but I will before a decision is made. I want to see how it feels. I'm going to try and set the Tarmac up as close to the Secteur as I can when I ride it to see if I can make it comfortable for me. I'll use the schematic from the shop and the ability of the Specialized stems to easily move up (they have those shims, I think) and see if I can get a good fit on it, close to the one from the shop. I figure it's worth a shot.
> 
> All that said, your advice re: warranty and condition is excellent and worth considering. Thanks again. I'm leaning toward the Secteur, but I at least want to see the Tarmac that the seller has available.


Points taken re: keeping your options open on the Tarmac. Just proceed with caution.

As far as changing the set up on the Tarmac, you're right that shims are used for adjustment, but unless the owner brings spares along or has changed his OEM set up, there will be a +/- 8 degree shim installed. There is another option with that same shim, but I forget the degree of change.

I'm guessing at this because I don't know his saddle to bar drop, but to attain that 2.5cm drop on a Tarmac you might be better off turning the shim 180 degrees (to +8) and flipping the stem. Without the other shims, fine adjustment will be difficult. But as you say, it's worth a shot.


----------



## dysfunction (Apr 2, 2010)

There are 3 shims in that set 4º, 2º and 0º. Here are the total stem angles, in both stem positions (stem up/down assuming the 12º stem)


```
degree shim  Stem up   /    stem down
4º             +16/+8         -16/-8
2º             +14/+10      -14/-10
0º             +12             -12
```
Last time I asked for the shimset at my LBS it was a no-brainer to hand me some. They had a pile in a box from assemblies. It's well worth an ask if you have the multi-position stem.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

dysfunction said:


> There are 3 shims in that set 4º, 2º and 0º. Here are the total stem angles, in both stem positions (stem up/down assuming the 12º stem)
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


That might be because you (presumably) purchased a Specialized bike (or at least stem) from them. The OP has not, but is considering a Tarmac from private owner, who may or may not have the spare shims.


----------



## dysfunction (Apr 2, 2010)

I've bought a few bikes from the shop, not all specialized... Even second hand, it's still worth a shot, if he were to end up in that position. What is the shop going to do with the unused shims? 

I forgot to add, either way the shims are quite nice to have to make relatively easy tweaks as you get things sorted out.


----------



## sjcaguy (Jul 14, 2005)

Thanks guys. I found a shop about 30 miles away that sells Specialized for under the minimum floor price. They have the Secteur with Apex for 1199, but (of course) I want to call back tomorrow to find out what their price on the Roubaix Elite SL2 Apex is. 

Here's a question I'm wondering about: is it going to be worth the extra few hundred to get the Roubaix, even if I loved the Secteur? Granted, the Roubaix was amazing, but...I dunno. Would you say it's worth the extra if I want to truly love my bike? Let's presume fit and everything are identical. Is carbon going to be THAT much better over 3-4 hours of riding?


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

sjcaguy said:


> Thanks guys. I found a shop about 30 miles away that sells Specialized for under the minimum floor price. They have the Secteur with Apex for 1199, but (of course) I want to call back tomorrow to find out what their price on the Roubaix Elite SL2 Apex is.
> 
> Here's a question I'm wondering about: is it going to be worth the extra few hundred to get the Roubaix, even if I loved the Secteur? Granted, the Roubaix was amazing, but...I dunno. Would you say it's worth the extra if I want to truly love my bike? Let's presume fit and everything are identical. Is carbon going to be THAT much better over 3-4 hours of riding?


Seeing as the geo is identical between these two models, fit will be as well. That leaves the remainder of your question, which is (IMO) _highly_ subjective. 

I like the ride of most CF bikes, and think that all else being equal, a well designed CF bike will have superior ride qualities to its alu counterpart. But I also think that each frame material has its best use - alu is cheap, light and relatively stiff, so it's ideal for racing or entry level bikes. Steel is (IMO/E) similar in ride to the nicer CF bikes (or maybe it's the other way around), making both a good choice for longer rides. I'm sure my preferences and opinions are based on a variety of factors, from riding experience/ style, use, my anatomy/ weight, and road conditions, among others.

I would suggest riding both back to back - out on the roads and with the same tire pressures before deciding. If you're hard pressed to tell the difference (and this is a real possibility) I'd say save the extra money and go with the Secteur.


----------



## sjcaguy (Jul 14, 2005)

PJ-- thanks. I actually did the test pretty much as you suggested. I rode both back to back, and as weird as this sounds, I could tell the difference but I had to really pay ultra-close attention to notice the difference. The best way I can describe the Roubaix is that it was a touch more 'muted' than the Secteur, and over bumpy roads (in southern California where I am, that's a regular thing) it felt nice.

I'll say this: I certainly enjoyed the Roubaix, but I feel like I could be happy with the Secteur. I wanted to get some feedback from people here as to whether it's really worth stretching my budget to get the Secteur, or whether I can take the cash I'd spend upgrading to the Roubaix and get some extras that I'd like-- upgraded helmet, jerseys/bibs, etc-- that will also make me happy to get out and ride. If I get the Roubaix, the money I've set aside for a road bike will pretty much be soaked up by the bike. What I'm wondering is whether I'll be itching for a carbon frame in a few months and end up taking a hit trying to sell the Secteur and upgrade. I know that no one can tell me what *I will end up wanting*, but I'm wondering if other's experience can point me in the right direction. 

If the reality is that I can likely be ecstatic riding a well-fitting aluminum bike and putting my target 5,000 miles on it this year, I'll do it and not look back. Just wanting some advice.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I've found that I really notice the "comfort" characteristics of a good carbon frame in comparison to a similar fit Al frame about 80 miles into a long ride. And for those last miles I really value every ounce of comfort that has been designed into my bike. Assuming a good fit, it is the road buzz that gets me in the end. This is hard to evaluate on a test ride, but if you can find the worst possible road surface possible and try the bikes back-to-back in quick succession.

Actually up to 40-50 miles it doesn't really make all that difference at all to me whether I'm riding my crappy old Al frame rain bike, or my flashy carbon frame. Fit, saddles, wheels, tire pressure, tubeless tires, shorts and shoes on the other hand make a huge difference from the first mile, especially when they're bad ...


----------

