# Stage 16 - ALPE D'HUEZ discussion



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Absolutely astounding!!

1 001 Lance ARMSTRONG USA USP 39' 41" 
2 011 Jan ULLRICH GER TMO 01' 01" 
3 017 Andréas KLÖDEN GER TMO 01' 41" 
4 002 José AZEVEDO POR USP 01' 45" 
5 023 Santos GONZALEZ ESP PHO 02' 11" 
6 014 Giuseppe GUERINI ITA TMO 02' 11" 
7 075 Vladimir KARPETS RUS IBB 02' 15" 
8 061 Ivan BASSO ITA CSC 02' 23" 
9 097 David MONCOUTIE FRA COF 02' 23" 
10 067 Carlos SASTRE ESP CSC 02' 27" 
11 144 Stephane GOUBERT FRA A2R 02' 33" 
12 108 Michael ROGERS AUS QSD 02' 34" 
13 025 José Enrique GUTIERREZ ESP PHO 03' 04" 
14 027 Oscar PEREIRO SIO ESP PHO 03' 06" 
15 117 Marcos SERRANO ESP LST 03' 09" 
16 081 Georg TOTSCHNIG AUT GST 03' 15" 
17 162 Sandy CASAR FRA FDJ 03' 19" 
18 142 Mikel ASTARLOZA ESP A2R 03' 25" 
19 107 Juan Miguel MERCADO ESP QSD 03' 25" 
20 051 Christophe MOREAU FRA C.A 03' 25" 


General Classification
------------------------------------
1 001 Lance ARMSTRONG USA USP 67h 53' 24" 
2 061 Ivan BASSO ITA CSC 03' 48" 
3 017 Andréas KLÖDEN GER TMO 05' 03" 
4 011 Jan ULLRICH GER TMO 07' 55" 
5 002 José AZEVEDO POR USP 09' 19" 
6 071 Francisco MANCEBO ESP IBB 09' 20" 
7 081 Georg TOTSCHNIG AUT GST 11' 34" 
8 067 Carlos SASTRE ESP CSC 13' 52" 
9 134 Pietro CAUCCHIOLI ITA ALB 14' 08" 
10 151 Levi LEIPHEIMER USA RAB 15' 04" 
11 027 Oscar PEREIRO SIO ESP PHO 15' 27" 
12 171 Gilberto SIMONI ITA SAE 15' 41" 
13 129 Thomas VOECKLER FRA BLB 16' 04" 
14 051 Christophe MOREAU FRA C.A 17' 23" 
15 158 Mickael RASMUSSEN DEN RAB 18' 58" 
16 101 Richard VIRENQUE FRA QSD 19' 32" 
17 075 Vladimir KARPETS RUS IBB 19' 37" 
18 141 Laurent BROCHARD FRA A2R 20' 26" 
19 162 Sandy CASAR FRA FDJ 20' 28" 
20 144 Stephane GOUBERT FRA A2R 20' 55" 


What do you think of the stage? Is the race over? How did Basso, Ullrich, Kloden, Voeckler do?

francois

<img src="https://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/ng/sp/afpji/20040721/040721155155.bib6l4f30b.jpg">


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## oldschool (Dec 22, 2003)

An amazing win!!!!

What more can be said....
Tim


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*Azevedo 4th?! Klöden 3rd?! Daaaaaaaaamn!!!*

These guys are THE surprise this year (ok, Voeckler too)!

Props to Ullrich for his effort. I gave up on him days ago, but I'm happy to see him fight on. I give him credit for having the guts to keep trying, unlike a certain Basque who withered away before the start yesterday. However, he's almost 8 minutes down on Lance, the biggest margin at this point in a TDF where they've battled (I think...). 

Man, what happended to Basso? Oh well, "race of truth" right? Maybe he's better/smarter with others around him on a climb. Lets see him on the flat TT.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*There still is a race left but*

I now doubt if it will be for the yellow jersey. 2nd and third places will become very interesting.

What tactic will Ullrich & Kloden use to push Basso off the podium? Will there be a hail Mary attack Thursday or Friday? (I still think so, probably 2 or 3, Ullrich is not a quiter)

Will USPS & CSC continue to work together to fend off the T mobile camp? I think so. It's been working so far. With Basso at 3' 48" down, they can let Basso tag along knowing LA will pip him at the line for the bonus seconds to get LA's lead over the magic 4 minute mark going into the last ITT. 

There is the slight chance that Basso may make a run a LA with an early break. He would have to finish 8-10 minutes ahead of LA in that stage to stand a chance to get the yellow. 

More likely. USPS will continue to have the Big blue train up front, and get help from all of CSC. That slip of paper passed between team cars was probably a pact between the two teams to work together with the goal of LA first, Basso second. LA likes Basso so I doubt if there would be a problem there and I think Bruynell and Riis have mutual respect and trust for each other. 

Teams working together like this is routine in racing at all levels. But, you can never fully trust these pacts. If a hole of opportunity opens up, often all bets are off.

Also, there is a chance that T-Mobile changes lead horses in the next day or two. If during one of the Ullrich attacks USPS/CSC covers Ullrich, I could see Kloden counter attacking once they reel Ullrich. Then when push comes to shove who will T-Mobile back. Ullrich or Kloden?

Now the Green Jersey competition will get VERY interesting.

Zabel is stronger than McEwen in the hills and all it takes is a hard drop of McEwen or a break by Zabel to turn the tables. There is also a chance that O'Grady sneeks off in a break or hangs with a group while the other two or dropped. 

I would not be surprised to see McEwen and Zabel going after each other down the Champs-Elysee (even though that's not the way the game is normally played). I could see McEwen turning it into a real race if he was a point or two down.

1 Robbie McEwen (Aus) Lotto-Domo 225 pts
2 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Crédit Agricole 213
3 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile Team 212
4 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Cofidis - Le Crédit Par Téléphone 204


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

wongsifu_mk said:


> These guys are THE surprise this year (ok, Voeckler too)!
> 
> Props to Ullrich for his effort. I gave up on him days ago, but I'm happy to see him fight on. I give him credit for having the guts to keep trying, unlike a certain Basque who withered away before the start yesterday. However, he's almost 8 minutes down on Lance, the biggest margin at this point in a TDF where they've battled (I think...).
> 
> Man, what happended to Basso? Oh well, "race of truth" right? Maybe he's better/smarter with others around him on a climb. Lets see him on the flat TT.


Acevedo is the real deal!! He's a great lieutenant and a great individual climber as well. 

The real genius of the tour is US Postal coach Bruyneel. He runs a team engine that is so perfect that it gets the most out of riders. Look at how Heras has done with him and how Heras has done without him. Picking Acevedo was incredible and I am sure they elevated Acevedo to a new level with their training and organization.

Bravo Bruyneel!


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Basso and CSC are being criticized for racing for second place.

And rightfully so!! Basso seemed happy to finish second to Lance. Seemed in awe...

This was confirmed when Jan Ullrich attacked on Stage 15. Instead of Isolating Lance and his team so they can weaken the leader, they come out and help him. They were clearly trying to protect their position instead of trying to topple the leader.

francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

My take:
Ullrich was great today - On a race where he got dropped on 2 previous stages, on a stage better suited for lighter riders with faster cadence, Jan was absolutely incredible. To beat Basso and Kloden and all the rest is absolutely spectacular.

Also Jan's attack on stage 15 was epic. Given how badly he performed to date, it's such a treat to see him fight. It was brave, sucidal and it failed. But it was an act of defiance that shook up the field and produced the greatest stage of the TDF to date.

It reaffirmed why Jan won me over last year.

---
Lance is the greatest - Lance confirmed today that he will win the 04 TDF. I just hope that there is no injury or accident so he is awarded what he deserves. And as he wins his 6th tour it will erase any doubt in my mind (and I hope with many others) that he is the greatest cyclist that ever lived. And it seems he's not done.

francois


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*my 2 cents*

about the mtt and Basso's ride...

Is it humiliating to be passed in any TT? yes. But, there are only 3 riders that could have started right before LA and not been passed. Only JU, Kloden and Azevedo finished within two minutes of the winning time. Basso just happened to be in a 'bad spot' when it came to starting order.

26 riders under 4:00
70 riders under 6:00...80ish riders could have been caught for 6:00...that would have been humilating..."Armstrong has passed his two minute man, and his four...now he has his six minute man in his sights" and it could have been half the riders still in it.

Basso did not have a horrible ride. Not great, but not bad either. He was just one dude out of 155 riders who started that day and would have been passed by LA. The rest of the peloton should be glad that today was fairly late in the race and they did not have to start anywhere near LA.

Basso on a humiliating ride? I don't think so. Now if he were the defending world champion in the discipline and LA passed him that would be something different...we'll have to ask Senor Olano about that.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

francois said:


> Basso and CSC are being criticized for racing for second place.
> 
> And rightfully so!! Basso seemed happy to finish second to Lance. Seemed in awe...
> 
> ...


Not sure I follow. Suppose Ullrich stays away and with time bonuses gets 3 min on Basso and Lance. So after today's stage Ullrich is 1min behind Basso, who is almost 4 min behind Lance. How does this situation better for Basso than what is now? Let's face it, Basso is racing for 2nd because his ITT ability doesn't allow him to race for the 1st. Your strategy would probably result in him getting 3rd or 4th. Is 2nd better than 3rd or 4th?


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## mellowman (Apr 17, 2004)

*Is Jan retarded or something...*

He was the only one using aero bars (saw Basso had something but no where near the setup Jan had). Even LA managed only a 15mph average. The flat 1.5km at the bottom would not make much difference with aero bars. Seemed batter to just use the normal bar and put your hands on the hoods to get the most breathing room. I thought I saw a couple of times he wanted to do that then saw the camera on the motorbike next to him and thought it would make him look like a fool for bringing the aero clip-ons and not using them. Probably hurt his time by quite a bit, maybe even cost him second place GC if I'm right.

Remembering pics from the Tour de Sussie when he didn't use a disk rear wheel for a TT but I saw pics of others using disk makes me wonder if he has got something seriously wrong in his head.


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## Bocephus Jones (Feb 3, 2004)

francois said:


> My take:
> Ullrich was great today - On a race where he got dropped on 2 previous stages, on a stage better suited for lighter riders with faster cadence, Jan was absolutely incredible. To beat Basso and Kloden and all the rest is absolutely spectacular.
> 
> Also Jan's attack on stage 15 was epic. Given how badly he performed to date, it's such a treat to see him fight. It was brave, sucidal and it failed. But it was an act of defiance that shook up the field and produced the greatest stage of the TDF to date.
> ...


Didn't I hear them say Jan was running 177 cranks? That guy must generate some huge power climbing like that. Must be hell on his legs. Strong guy.


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## Bocephus Jones (Feb 3, 2004)

mellowman said:


> He was the only one using aero bars (saw Basso had something but no where near the setup Jan had). Even LA managed only a 15mph average. The flat 1.5km at the bottom would not make much difference with aero bars. Seemed batter to just use the normal bar and put your hands on the hoods to get the most breathing room. I thought I saw a couple of times he wanted to do that then saw the camera on the motorbike next to him and thought it would make him look like a fool for bringing the aero clip-ons and not using them. Probably hurt his time by quite a bit, maybe even cost him second place GC if I'm right.
> 
> Remembering pics from the Tour de Sussie when he didn't use a disk rear wheel for a TT but I saw pics of others using disk makes me wonder if he has got something seriously wrong in his head.


I would imagine he is comfortable with a certain position for TTing--hills or no--and trained using the bars so didn't want to change before a big race. He didn't TT too bad today--Lance was just faster.


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## JPRider14 (Feb 9, 2004)

mellowman said:


> Remembering pics from the Tour de Sussie when he didn't use a disk rear wheel for a TT but I saw pics of others using disk makes me wonder if he has got something seriously wrong in his head.


Here's my question(s): why did Basso use 404s, which are more aero yet heavier than 303s, or even the 202s? Even if he had to add more weight to the bike (which was reported he had to), wouldn't there be an advantage of having the 202s? 

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform&04tourSt16

Also, see the pic that follows it: I like Lance's wheels. Yup, I do.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

MaRider said:


> Not sure I follow. Suppose Ullrich stays away and with time bonuses gets 3 min on Basso and Lance. So after today's stage Ullrich is 1min behind Basso, who is almost 4 min behind Lance. How does this situation better for Basso than what is now? Let's face it, Basso is racing for 2nd because his ITT ability doesn't allow him to race for the 1st. Your strategy would probably result in him getting 3rd or 4th. Is 2nd better than 3rd or 4th?



Ahhhhh. That is the difference between racing for the win and racing for second. I follow your logic and it makes sense if you're racing for second.

However, racing for second is racing to lose. Basso should be racing to win. And if Lance is to be beaten the racing to win means an all out attack by all teams... like last year.

If Basso and Riis think second is all they can shoot for that's fine. But as a fan and with all hopes for competition resting on him, I am disappointed.

francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Don't get me wrong. I think Basso rode an admirable time trial.

My negative comments against Basso and CSC are directed towards Stage 15. When they helped Lance chase down Ullrich.

francois


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

francois said:


> Ahhhhh. That is the difference between racing for the win and racing for second. I follow your logic and it makes sense if you're racing for second.
> 
> However, racing for second is racing to lose. Basso should be racing to win. And if Lance is to be beaten the racing to win means an all out attack by all teams... like last year.
> 
> ...


Agree but only to a point. From practical point of view, I doubt there's much Basso & Co could do to get to the top of the podium, except to hope for Lance having a terrible day, bonking, crashing, getting sick, etc.

Meanwhile they have to protect their lead over Ulrich. Lance would be happy to let Ulrich get away for up to a minute or even more. Had CSC not chase him down, not much would change, as I seriously doubt Lance would have trouble staying with Basso if the pace was slower and they didn't chase down Ullrich.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

*What I want to know*



JPRider14 said:


> Here's my question(s): why did Basso use 404s, which are more aero yet heavier than 303s, or even the 202s? Even if he had to add more weight to the bike (which was reported he had to), wouldn't there be an advantage of having the 202s?
> 
> http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/updateframesetcall?openform&04tourSt16
> 
> Also, see the pic that follows it: I like Lance's wheels. Yup, I do.


Is how did Watson get those Bontrager logos lined up?


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## wongsifu_mk (Mar 5, 2002)

*New Cervelo frame made bike come in under weight*



JPRider14 said:


> Here's my question(s): why did Basso use 404s, which are more aero yet heavier than 303s, or even the 202s? Even if he had to add more weight to the bike (which was reported he had to), wouldn't there be an advantage of having the 202s?


I bet using the heavier 404s brought it within the weight limits. Just a guess.

http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/tech/articles/6632.0.html


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## curtybirdychopper (Jun 10, 2002)

*i desktopped the image of lance passing basso in the ITT*

great shot showing the two riders, the crowd, the course. suprised graham lets those be copied in good quality. i guess as long as i dont sell it!






Mel Erickson said:


> Is how did Watson get those Bontrager logos lined up?


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## JPRider14 (Feb 9, 2004)

wongsifu_mk said:


> I bet using the heavier 404s brought it within the weight limits. Just a guess.
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/tech/articles/6632.0.html


Huh. I still would think adding the weight elsewhere (seat post, water bottle cage, etc.) would've been better than adding the weight to the wheels. 

Thanks for the link.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

*no bars for LA after all....*

I was surprised to see that LA didn't use the mini TT bars after all today after seeing all the spots on LA chronicles and all the equipment gurus pouring over him and his bike. For a stage like this, lightness is probably way more important than any aero advatage, which isn't going to be much, uphill at 15mph. If it were me, I would have made the same decision.

brewster


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

brewster said:


> I was surprised to see that LA didn't use the mini TT bars after all today after seeing all the spots on LA chronicles and all the equipment gurus pouring over him and his bike. For a stage like this, lightness is probably way more important than any aero advatage, which isn't going to be much, uphill at 15mph. If it were me, I would have made the same decision.
> 
> brewster


The decision to ride with TT bars is influenced by riding style. Lance stands up a lot and rocks the bike back and forth while Jan mainly sits down and mashes the big gears.

I wouldn't second guess these guys. I'm sure they each rode each stage and rode and timed both set-ups. After all they both rode spectacularly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

francois


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## czardonic (Jan 11, 2002)

*Psychology.*

He just wanted to sucker Ullrich into running clip-ons. He knew that if they were on the bike, Ullrich wouldn't be able to resist using them and would thus lose even more time.

Seriously, Ullrich seems to be a creature of extreme habit. It is impressive what he accomplished with his cadence and position today, but I can't help but wonder what he <i>could</i> do (just maybe) if he were a little more flexible.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

oh, I'm not second guessing. I'm just saying that I'm sure there are lots of things that get tried and proposed by all his "experts" that he nixes in the end that the public never sees. 

Like his aero guys wanting to put his radio transmitter on his chest for the TT to reduce drag, and he said, "Ahhh...no."

brewster


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## Bocephus Jones (Feb 3, 2004)

czardonic said:


> He just wanted to sucker Ullrich into running clip-ons. He knew that if they were on the bike, Ullrich wouldn't be able to resist using them and would thus lose even more time.
> 
> Seriously, Ullrich seems to be a creature of extreme habit. It is impressive what he accomplished with his cadence and position today, but I can't help but wonder what he <i>could</i> do (just maybe) if he were a little more flexible.


true. he had to know that his mashing style of riding hasn't been working against Armstrong. Armstrong changed his style so why can't Jan? He's got to try something differerent if he hopes to ever beat him. That said, I think many riders are creatures of habit. Lance used those heavy D/A pedals for years because he liked them.


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## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

francois said:


> Don't get me wrong. I think Basso rode an admirable time trial.
> 
> My negative comments against Basso and CSC are directed towards Stage 15. When they helped Lance chase down Ullrich.
> 
> francois


I agree to your original point. It did seem like Basso was very content with riding up to the line positioning Lance to take 1st. I agree, he seemed to be in awe, as if not to stop Lance from taking his 6th win this year. 

He should have been more aggressive and not taken the handmaiden approach as if he were a team mate.


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## tube_ee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bocephus Jones said:


> true. he had to know that his mashing style of riding hasn't been working against Armstrong. Armstrong changed his style so why can't Jan? He's got to try something differerent if he hopes to ever beat him. That said, I think many riders are creatures of habit. Lance used those heavy D/A pedals for years because he liked them.


Let's not forget that Lance is a totally different rider post-cancer. Pre-cancer, he was considered a classics and short stage race rider. Without cancer, he would not have been a Grand Tour rider. Ullrich's style is what it is, and is dictated by his body. Short of a radical change in his physiology, he'll ride the way he does, because it works. The difference isn't climbing style, Lance is just a better climber.

Lance isn't the first to climb the way he does, nor is Ullrich. And power climbers have beaten spinners before. Just ask Hinault.

IIRC, Lance used the 7401s because Shimano SPD-Rs hurt his feet. Lots of people shared that opinion, which is why they went away.

You can't really criticize JU for his choice of equipment or gearing... unless you think you could stay with him on a climb.

--Shannon


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## cyclist1969 (Jun 25, 2004)

tube_ee said:


> Let's not forget that Lance is a totally different rider post-cancer. Pre-cancer, he was considered a classics and short stage race rider. Without cancer, he would not have been a Grand Tour rider. Ullrich's style is what it is, and is dictated by his body. Short of a radical change in his physiology, he'll ride the way he does, because it works. The difference isn't climbing style, Lance is just a better climber.
> 
> Lance isn't the first to climb the way he does, nor is Ullrich. And power climbers have beaten spinners before. Just ask Hinault.
> 
> ...


On top of that, JU was essentially using his regular TT bike with just a slightly altered position. Oh yea, 177mm cranks! How many of us would end up with articulated knees if we tried his "style?" I have to say, aside from LA's performance today, JU's was pretty damn impresive.


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