# Why all the Specialized hate?



## Ahillock (Apr 16, 2011)

Not sure if this thread should be here or in general. If the mods think it belongs elsewhere please move it. 

I've been hearing/reading a lot of hate for Specialized. Can't pinpoint it. Just bad experiences? Upset about Specialized over handed approach re: patents? Too popular? Bad dealers that carry Specialized? Poor warranty experiences? I'm sure it probably based on several factors. Just don't seem to hear the same hate/negativity/distain for most other brands as I hear for Specialized. Just curious why. They seem to make a good product.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Their propensity to sue everyone for any hint of encroachment is not their most endearing trait.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

wgscott said:


> Their propensity to sue everyone for any hint of encroachment is not their most endearing trait.


This for one


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Those Bass Turds. The sell a lot of bikes, they win a lot of races (by cheating), they don't like folks who make lookalikes with similar names, and worst of all, reliable unknown sources know people who have proof that they hide little motors in their bottom brackets.


Ahillock said:


> Not sure if this thread should be here or in general. If the mods think it belongs elsewhere please move it.
> 
> I've been hearing/reading a lot of hate for Specialized. Can't pinpoint it. Just bad experiences? Upset about Specialized over handed approach re: patents? Too popular? Bad dealers that carry Specialized? Poor warranty experiences? I'm sure it probably based on several factors. Just don't seem to hear the same hate/negativity/distain for most other brands as I hear for Specialized. Just curious why. They seem to make a good product.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm just waiting for them to sue Bianchi for making bikes colored in Celeste.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

Specialized makes good products for sure. I use their shoes, gloves, water bottles and saddles because they work best for me. I used to own a Tarmac S-Works SL3 but after a few years decided it wasn't the best bike for me and I am now happy with a Cannondale EVO. The things I and others don't like about Specialized:

Aggressive legal action against other bicycle companies

Can only buy their products in a Specialized store at a fixed price.

Specialized stores carry only Specialized products and there are a lot of them reducing the choice of options when buying from a LBS.

Their saddle policy really sucks. You can't test a saddle, you have to buy it and then only have seven days to exchange it. That is why I bought one of my saddles off Ebay for a lower price.

I wouldn't say I hate them but find some of their business practices distasteful and its too bad they can't have a good image along with good products.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Ahillock said:


> Not sure if this thread should be here or in general. If the mods think it belongs elsewhere please move it.
> 
> I've been hearing/reading a lot of hate for Specialized. Can't pinpoint it. Just bad experiences? Upset about Specialized over handed approach re: patents? Too popular? Bad dealers that carry Specialized? Poor warranty experiences? I'm sure it probably based on several factors. Just don't seem to hear the same hate/negativity/distain for most other brands as I hear for Specialized. Just curious why. They seem to make a good product.


Personally I think Specialized is making some of the better mass market bikes. They seem to take bike fit more seriously than some of the other guys in that they actually design each size around a buyer in mind, and not just one frame and then make smaller and larger versions of it. Wouldn't get one though, I can't see getting any bike that isn't using a threaded bottom bracket design with the one exception being the Colnago C60 with its hybrid approach. I do own their shoes, decent product. 

Now as far as their propensity to sue. Companies have to do that to protect their brand. If they make exceptions they risk not being able to do so the next time someone tries to use benefit off their trademark/brand.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm one of those people who wouldn't touch anything Specialized with a barge pole. In addition to the reasons you mentioned, all of the Spesh dealers in my area (3 of them) are crooks, and that's not even an exaggeration. Of course, that could be a coincidence, but I just can't help myself seeing the parallel between their corporate identity and those dealers. 

Oh, and those dealerships offer the usual shop rides, but with a twist: You're only allowed to join the ride if you bought a bike from them, or at least ride a Specialized bike. The ride leaders, likewise, are generally @ssholes, too, and wannabe posers more often than not.


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## TheManShow (Jun 9, 2015)

jnbrown said:


> Specialized makes good products for sure. I use their shoes, gloves, water bottles and saddles because they work best for me. I used to own a Tarmac S-Works SL3 but after a few years decided it wasn't the best bike for me and I am now happy with a Cannondale EVO. The things I and others don't like about Specialized:
> 
> Aggressive legal action against other bicycle companies
> 
> ...



Aftr read is this about the Specialized Bicycle Company they seem to use the business tactics of many other corporation in other businesses. A coupe that come to mind are Apple, Microsoft. Oakley, Levi Straus, Harley Davidson, and the list goes on.

But if you really hate them so bad don't buy their products.


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## Ahillock (Apr 16, 2011)

Pirx said:


> Oh, and those dealerships offer the usual shop rides, but with a twist: You're only allowed to join the ride if you bought a bike from them, or at least ride a Specialized bike. The ride leaders, likewise, are generally @ssholes, too, and wannabe posers more often than not.


How could they stop you from riding with them? Public roads. I guess they could try and drop you, but that is about it. Would be funny to show up there on a non-Specialized bike and annoy them.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Ahillock said:


> How could they stop you from riding with them? Public roads. I guess they could try and drop you, but that is about it. Would be funny to show up there on a non-Specialized bike and annoy them.


That's simply not true. Shop rides are typically open to everyone in the hopes that the bike store can lure future customers. It's not solely about keeping the old customers.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's simply not true. Shop rides are typically open to everyone in the hopes that the bike store can lure future customers. It's not solely about keeping the old customers.


huh? I don't see where he said it had anything to do with keeping old customers or said anything subject to being true or false.


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## David23 (Jun 5, 2012)

Pirx said:


> I'm one of those people who wouldn't touch anything Specialized with a barge pole. In addition to the reasons you mentioned, all of the Spesh dealers in my area (3 of them) are crooks, and that's not even an exaggeration. Of course, that could be a coincidence, but I just can't help myself seeing the parallel between their corporate identity and those dealers.
> 
> Oh, and those dealerships offer the usual shop rides, but with a twist: You're only allowed to join the ride if you bought a bike from them, or at least ride a Specialized bike. The ride leaders, likewise, are generally @ssholes, too, and wannabe posers more often than not.


This would seem to be an issue with individual shop owner/managers, not necessarily the product. I imagine there are a wide range of personal experiences with an equal number of different Specialized shops. My experiences have all been very positive.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

TheManShow said:


> ...Apple, Microsoft. Oakley, Levi Straus, Harley Davidson, and the list goes on.


A list of some damn fine USA companies (except that Oakley is now owned by Luxottica - an Italian company).


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

They think they own the name "Roubaix"



> A Canadian veteran of the Afghanistan war who operates a tiny bicycle shop in Cochrane is being forced to change his store’s name after being threatened with a lawsuit by one of the giants of the U.S. bike industry.
> 
> Dan Richter, owner of Cafe Roubaix Bicycle Studio, located above the famous Mackay’s Ice Cream in Cochrane, says he received a letter from the lawyers of big bicycle maker Specialized several months ago, demanding he change the store’s name because the company owns the trademark on the word Roubaix, which they use to market a brand of road bike.


War vet forced to change bike shop?s name after threat from Specialized | Calgary Herald


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

wgscott said:


> I'm just waiting for them to sue Bianchi for making bikes colored in Celeste.


It shouldn't take long..


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## Mergetrio (May 28, 2012)

Hating a particular brand is kind of silly. I appreciate them all, especially the innovative ones.


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## TheManShow (Jun 9, 2015)

tvad said:


> A list of some damn fine USA companies (except that Oakley is now owned by Luxottica - an Italian company).



I honestly can buy select model Oakley at like 50% off because of my military service. I signed up for the program, and one order a set of replacemt lenes for my step son in law. 

I have a 20 year old pair of Bolle I got from LL Bean that are for driving think they we 20 or 22 bucks back than.

My cycling eye protection, are generic from Proformance that I just bought with three different colord lenes that we reasonable under 30 bucks.

Just can not see spend 100-150 bucks plus for the "O" Brand that are made off shore, but very expensive IMHO.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

TheManShow said:


> Just can not see spend 100-150 bucks plus for the "O" Brand that are made off shore, but very expensive IMHO.


Hmm my pairs of oakleys say "Made in USA"... well 3 out of the 5 pairs do anyway.

I'm sure all those companies listed would sue if someone was encroaching on their products, but Specialised are way way overzealous and will go after people that really have nothing to do with anything they are doing...or even worse go out an buy a patent that has been freely available for others and themselves to use, and screw over everone.

It leaves a bad feeling, not saying I wouldn;t buy anything of theirs, but definately pushes them down the list. Give an equal product and price, I'd buy the alternative over Specialised, just because of that.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

mik_git said:


> Hmm my pairs of oakleys say "Made in USA"... well 3 out of the 5 pairs do anyway.


Luxe acquisition started shifting production overseas I believe around 2013. Majority of O-matter pairs, from what I understand, are starting to be made there, although I've seen a new Jawbreaker with the Made in USA print. Lenses are supposedly still done in the US.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Could be, I bought some racing jackets ealier this year and are made in USA, but my carbon plate's don't say it, or my gassers, but the lenses for all were made in the US (well I had to wait for them to be made and shipped from the US, so from what i understand they are in the US).


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Mergetrio said:


> Hating a particular brand is kind of silly. I appreciate them all, especially the innovative ones.


That's why I like brands that are known for child labor abuses, destroying the environment, don;t honor warranty claims and donate profits to the nazi party. Because hating a particular brand is silly.

Not to imply those things or other ethical issues apply to Spech or any bike company but what's silly is saying hating a particular brand is silly. Sometimes it's not at all silly.


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## Mergetrio (May 28, 2012)

Jay Strongbow said:


> That's why I like brands that are known for child labor abuses, destroying the environment, don;t honor warranty claims and donate profits to the nazi party. Because hating a particular brand is silly.
> 
> Not to imply those things or other ethical issues apply to Spech or any bike company but what's silly is saying hating a particular brand is silly. Sometimes it's not at all silly.


My comment was made in the context of cycling brands. Silly me for not being so specific.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's simply not true. Shop rides are typically open to everyone in the hopes that the bike store can lure future customers. It's not solely about keeping the old customers.


Pirx didn't say all Spec shops do that, just the ones in his area. The Spec dealer/shop in my town is staffed by some great guys, and their shop rides are open to anybody who can get there. Different areas have different priorities.

My gripes against Spec are mainly that their rabid attack lawyers being given free rein, and that the products I like the best are way out of my price range.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I once saw Mike Sinyard shove an old woman out of his way, kick a puppy then take candy from a baby.
I have since sold all my Evil S products and now ride a Cannondale. Everybody loves Canadians.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> They think they own the name "Roubaix"
> 
> 
> 
> War vet forced to change bike shop?s name after threat from Specialized | Calgary Herald


That story is two years old, and the war vet got to keep his shop's name after Spesh dropped the suit. Not out of benevolence, however. But because the Roubaix trademark is actually owned by Fuji. Special Ed pays Fuji a licensing fee to use it. 

They got more than the usual egg on their faces on that one. :lol:

Fuji let the guy keep the name.


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## kanekikapu (Jan 23, 2002)

I was a spesh fan for years. owned a stumpy fsr xc and had some good memories out of that bike. The spesh dealers here are great guys too. Love them. 

I stopped buying their stuff after they sued Stratos out of business. Throw in Volagi and Roubaix and I don't think I'm going to back to the big S anytime soon. Nice products though.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

kanekikapu said:


> I was a spesh fan for years. owned a stumpy fsr xc and had some good memories out of that bike. The spesh dealers here are great guys too. Love them.
> 
> I stopped buying their stuff after they sued Stratos out of business. Throw in Volagi and Roubaix and I don't think I'm going to back to the big S anytime soon. Nice products though.




The Roubaix wheel thing had me send a nasty gram to Spesh which I actually got a reply to.

I did buy one new 2014 after that, already had 3 Spesh bikes. I just said already in a post, not likely I will be a customer in the future. Sold off 2 Roubaix recently, replaced with non Spesh. It might say something one was 7 month old and I was happy to see it go and happier to have broken even moving it out. 

Not sure the two left here count for anything like brand loyalty on my part. One is a 99 Allex permanently mounted on my trainer, the other a 1993 Steel Stumpjumper that is kinda old school best steel. Still easy to find them on best 10 lists for the decade, and reasons still better then what you can get today... although I question that last one.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

To me the important thing is whether its a good product, if the company has had recalls in the past and how they handled them, how they replaced broken frames or forks and what their warranty is. Disliking them because they sued some companies to me should be at the bottom of the list of reasons not to do business with them.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I would love to get a list that specifies all of the evil deeds that Specialized has been accused of doing. My guess is that 3/4ths of it is folk lore. Remember, the mediocre hate winners.


mik_git said:


> Hmm my pairs of oakleys say "Made in USA"... well 3 out of the 5 pairs do anyway.
> 
> I'm sure all those companies listed would sue if someone was encroaching on their products, but Specialised are way way overzealous and will go after people that really have nothing to do with anything they are doing...or even worse go out an buy a patent that has been freely available for others and themselves to use, and screw over everone.
> 
> It leaves a bad feeling, not saying I wouldn;t buy anything of theirs, but definately pushes them down the list. Give an equal product and price, I'd buy the alternative over Specialised, just because of that.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Specialized is one of many brands I avoid whenever possible. Part of my personal "vote with your wallet" initiative. I wouldn't say I actively hate them, I just try to use my money for other things.

Besides the many reasons listed here by other posters, I don't care for the fact that stifling competition through litigation seems to be a substantial part of their business model, the fact that they actually got their big advantage over other brands by taking someone else's (Tom Ritchey) designs and technology. 

Back in the early days of Mountain Biking, Tom Ritchey was one of the innovators, not just in frame design,, but in frame construction.

Mike Sinyard decided he liked what he saw, so, instead of coming up with his own variation, he blatantly took two of Toms frames to Japan, and convinced Shimano to mass produce components, and outsourced mass production of the frame to Japan. 

The result was the first Specialized Rockhopper. 

Ritchey got nothing for this (except whatever Sinyard paid for the two frames he took to Japan).

The rest is (mostly) history.

Ritchey has still carved out a niche for himself, and seems to be doing well. I much prefer to buy products from smaller, independent companies, particularly when they are being creative and doing something they love and are passionate about.

Full Disclosure: I love my Ti Volagi Viaje. I hope Volagi is successful in their endeavors. I like what they are doing.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

SwiftSolo said:


> I would love to get a list that specifies all of the evil deeds that Specialized has been accused of doing. My guess is that 3/4ths of it is folk lore. Remember, the mediocre hate winners.


OK specialised when out and bought the patent to the horst link, that many companies had been using for many years, then made eveyone either pay to use it, or go do something else. Are they legally allowed to , sure, coudl one of the other companies have done it instead (and then screwed specialised over) yes, but instead they decided it was a good thing they could all use it... till speciased decided they could screw everyone better. So you have Scott, GT, Intense and a bunch of others suddenly have a range of bieks they can't sell or have to pay to sell. Legal, yes, bastard move, for sure.
Then you have cafe roubaix, neil pride...oh you name sounds a bit like something we make...cease and desist, our legal dept is bigger than you company so you loose.
Can they do all these things, yes, but for me, it makes them a company I prefer not to buy from.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

bikerjulio said:


> They think they own the name "Roubaix"
> 
> 
> 
> War vet forced to change bike shop?s name after threat from Specialized | Calgary Herald


+1..... Fuji used the Roubaix name years before Specialized, and somehow Specialized got the rights to it.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The specialized shop I deal with is also very good. Nothing said in the post you responded to represents even a smidgen of reality with regard to their operation.

Sometimes reality is inconsistent with what folks like to believe.


David23 said:


> This would seem to be an issue with individual shop owner/managers, not necessarily the product. I imagine there are a wide range of personal experiences with an equal number of different Specialized shops. My experiences have all been very positive.


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

kanekikapu said:


> I was a spesh fan for years. owned a stumpy fsr xc and had some good memories out of that bike. The spesh dealers here are great guys too. Love them.
> 
> I stopped buying their stuff after they sued Stratos out of business. Throw in Volagi and Roubaix and I don't think I'm going to back to the big S anytime soon. Nice products though.


What about lawsuits against Epic Wheel Works, Mountain Cycle (because Stumptown sounded kind of like Stumpjumper), and Revelate Designs (was Epic Designs). So all you you, quit using the word Epic.

I love it when the blind loyalty fan boys come out to defend. Good for y'all. At least be intellectually honest, and say they're dicks, but I like their products.


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## UpHillCrawler (Jul 14, 2004)

*at least in SoCal...*

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> I don't currently own a Specialized, but over the years I've had several of their bikes and products. It's been my experience that they have one of the best warranties in the business, if you have a problem they take care of it (as long as you purchased the product thru a Specialized dealer). I had a Specialized pump that gave up the ghost after several years and when I took it to my LBS they just gave me a new one. They said their Specialized rep did whatever it took to keep their customers happy so it was no problem for them.

I also like that you can get their saddles in different widths, one of the LBS has a box of demo saddles. They measure you and ask what type of riding you do then give you a saddle to try. If you like it they sell you a new one, otherwise they let you try another. How nice is that?

The Specialized dealers around here all have shop rides and none of them 'require' you to have a Specialized bike to join them. Maybe some of the Specialized riders act like a clique, but certainly not more than some of the Trek, Giant, Cervelo, Pinarello, insert whatever brand here, riders. Face it a LOT of road bike riders tend to be cliquish and that has nothing to do with the bike they ride!

If you don’t like Specialized because of their legal issues and the fact they seemingly pick on smaller companies that’s your call. But, some of that is just business and a lot of the smaller companies would do it if they could, they just don’t have the resources to do it. Just my opinion, but the people that have an all-out vendetta against Specialized end up just hurting the LBS, not Specialized and that’s a real shame (IMO).
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2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Number 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Closing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Signature"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text Indent"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="List Continue 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Message Header"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Salutation"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Date"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text First Indent"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text First Indent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Note Heading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text Indent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Body Text Indent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Block Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Hyperlink"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="FollowedHyperlink"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Document Map"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Plain Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="E-mail Signature"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Top of Form"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Normal (Web)"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Acronym"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Address"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Cite"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Code"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Definition"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Keyboard"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Preformatted"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Sample"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Typewriter"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="HTML Variable"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Normal Table"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="annotation subject"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="No List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Outline List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Outline List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Outline List 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Simple 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Simple 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Simple 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Classic 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Colorful 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Colorful 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Colorful 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Columns 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Grid 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table List 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table 3D effects 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table 3D effects 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table 3D effects 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Contemporary"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Elegant"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Professional"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Subtle 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Subtle 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Web 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Web 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Web 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Balloon Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Table Theme"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="41" Name="Plain Table 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="42" Name="Plain Table 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="40" Name="Grid Table Light"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" 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## GOTA (Aug 27, 2012)

terbennett said:


> +1..... Fuji used the Roubaix name years before Specialized, and somehow Specialized got the rights to it.


Specialized pays Fuji a licensing fee for the rights to the Roubaix name. That's probably why they are so protective since they are paying for it. 

What's interesting about the Cafe Roubaix case is that Fuji came out and said they had no problem with the name of the shop. That made Specialized look even worse

For me personally I don't stay away from Specialized. I really like their tires and saddles. I'm not a big fan of their road bikes but that's more due to fit than anything else.


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## jjcools (Jun 28, 2011)

I think hate is a strong word for my feelings on Spesh but I usually try and pick up other brands that sell something comparable. Other brands have prices that are usually better or comparable to Spesh.

A lot of the people I know that are obsessed with S don't know about any other brands. That bothers me the most, and shops push it like it is gospel... I had a Stumpy growing up and it was a great bike. There are just a lot of other great bikes and products out there.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Ahillock said:


> Not sure if this thread should be here or in general. If the mods think it belongs elsewhere please move it.
> 
> I've been hearing/reading a lot of hate for Specialized. Can't pinpoint it. Just bad experiences? Upset about Specialized over handed approach re: patents? Too popular? Bad dealers that carry Specialized? Poor warranty experiences? I'm sure it probably based on several factors. Just don't seem to hear the same hate/negativity/distain for most other brands as I hear for Specialized. Just curious why. They seem to make a good product.


As others have said, their history of aggressively protecting their trademarks, even when bogus.

To be fair, they do make decent bikes. The big problem comes when something does go wrong, their customer support leaves a lot to be desired. For that reason alone, a few bike shops around me refuse to sell them.


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## MercRidnMike (Dec 19, 2006)

I wouldn't say I hate Specialized, per se, but they just seem to have left a bad taste in my mouth. The Specialized (and Trek / Bontrager) move to "you must carry 'X' amount of our stuff and if you're not big enough, you can only carry our stuff" didn't sit right with me. I know a local shop that got burned badly that way and it sucks.

They have some okay products....wouldn't call them anything special....like it has been said, they're decent "mass market" bikes. Ultra high-end stuff may be different, but the local dealer seems reluctant to let you anywhere near them unless you have the cash on you for a purchase.

The aggressive legal team and very public way of dealing with perceived infringement (and apparent inability to step up with an equally energetic and public apology when they are wrong)....several such examples have been noted in the thread already.

Don't get me wrong here...I think the industry as a whole would suffer if Spesh folded its tents overnight...but the overall feel I get is that they are no longer a bike company, but rather a business that also makes bikes...and that just rubs me the wrong way because if you've read _the Rules_, you know it's all about the bike


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

The local Speshy shop is by far the best shop around. Great people and service and they do a lot for the cycling community here. 
Because they are so good everybody in this town seems to ride Specialized. I call them Team Lemming. I like to think I'm cool so I always buy bikes that nobody has so no Spec for me. 

I do have a Toupe saddle.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Even if Specialized's legal team weren't so trigger happy, I'd still be reluctant to buy their recent products. Back in the early 2000s their Allez Elite was a great value for what you spent. Nowadays, though, I can easily find better bang for the buck.


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

Lombard said:


> The big problem comes when something does go wrong, their customer support leaves a lot to be desired. For that reason alone, a few bike shops around me refuse to sell them.


You can't just decide to become a Specialized dealer, pick up the phone and place an order. Bike manufacturers restrict the number of dealers based on market size.



MercRidnMike said:


> They have some okay products....wouldn't call them anything special....like it has been said, they're decent "mass market" bikes. Ultra high-end stuff may be different, but the local dealer seems reluctant to let you anywhere near them unless you have the cash on you for a purchase.
> 
> Don't get me wrong here...I think the industry as a whole would suffer if Spesh folded its tents overnight...but the overall feel I get is that they are no longer a bike company, but rather a business that also makes bikes...and that just rubs me the wrong way because if you've read _the Rules_, you know it's all about the bike


Unless you are a boutique dealer in a high population/high income urban area, you cannot afford to stock much in the way of high end bikes. If you have someone 5'6" or 6'2", you can't just bring in a high end bike for them to try out and hope they like it and buy it. Trek/Spesh/Giant make some pretty nice high end stuff, though they may not have the most eclectic bikes.

And yes, the big manufacturers are big businesses and they have to answer to boards of directors. And they have to show financial results. When you get that big, you can't rely on your passion of only producing high end road bikes. And if you're a shop, you most likely can't be that niche either. You have to stock and sell what pays the bills.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

ogre said:


> And yes, the big manufacturers are big businesses and they have to answer to boards of directors. And they have to show financial results. When you get that big, you can't rely on your passion of only producing high end road bikes. And if you're a shop, you most likely can't be that niche either. You have to stock and sell what pays the bills.


You are right, however, when the corporate headquarters (specifically the CEO) does douche moves in public and pisses off the general public and riles up the very segment he's trying to sell to, it makes it real hard to pay bills with that brand. Take the cafe incident for example. Protecting their brand/trademark/copyright/patent is good business, but if Sinyard had did his homework before unleashing his lawyers, he would have learned/remembered that Roubiax isn't their exclusive property. The resulting hoopla turned off a lot of people, some who don't even ride bikes. The LBS guys had nothing to do with that farce, yet they were the ones who took the worst of the crap by losing sales and all the rest.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

MercRidnMike said:


> The Specialized (and Trek / Bontrager) move to "you must carry 'X' amount of our stuff and if you're not big enough, you can only carry our stuff" didn't sit right with me. I know a local shop that got burned badly that way and it sucks.


I knew that Trek did this (cannot call yourself a Trek Dealer unless 60% of your stock is Trek), but did not know that Specialized does this also. So another mark against Specialized in my book.

Trek is playing hardball with its dealers in other ways too. If I dealer decides to stop carrying Trek, Trek will no longer provide support to past Trek customers through that shop.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Oh, what's with the new thread? Did they sue someone again?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> I knew that Trek did this (cannot call yourself a Trek Dealer unless 60% of your stock is Trek), but did not know that Specialized does this also. So another mark against Specialized in my book.
> 
> Trek is playing hardball with its dealers in other ways too. If I dealer decides to stop carrying Trek, Trek will no longer provide support to past Trek customers through that shop.


Trek is the same as any brand in that they offer tiered pricing. They are such a successful brand (like Specialized) that they command a majority in most of their dealers and those dealers are happy to do it, since it makes them more successful. If a shop carries both Trek and Specialized, neither makes up 60% (assuming there is another brand present) so the 60% rule is false.

If a dealer loses a brand, it is only natural that customers take their products to another authorized dealer. I don't know of any major brand, in any industry that services outside of their dealer network, mostly because their authorized dealers demand it, not the manufacturer.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I don't hate Specialized. 

But why does a size 52 Tarmac frame weigh 1032 grams (with a bottom bracket)?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

This thread has been a fun trip into folklore about Specialized and our legal system. While the notion that big companies or governments have an advantage in litigation provides high level fantasy for those who hate successful businesses or people, it is BS, except in the margin. 

The fact is that the courts get it right about 99% of the time. Court cases make news only when they appear to be part of that other 1%.


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## Ryder's (Oct 18, 2013)

Because is you anagram the words - Specialized Bikes- you can spell Sizable Dick Pies. 
Do we need any other reason Jerkstick ?


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> This thread has been a fun trip into folklore about Specialized and our legal system. While the notion that big companies or governments have an advantage in litigation provides high level fantasy for those who hate successful businesses or people, it is BS, except in the margin.
> 
> The fact is that the courts get it right about 99% of the time. Court cases make news only when they appear to be part of that other 1%.


Yep, and it is a well established fact that 99.73% of all statistics people quote are made up on the spot.

In this particular case, you have to be naïve to an extent that truly boggles the mind to not understand the role that resources (or lack thereof) play in corporate litigation.


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## FeltF75rider (Feb 10, 2012)

I just bought a Tarmac after years of hating the company. I really like the bike but the hitch is this. I paid for a brand new 2014 Tarmac Sport that after a week of ownership (less than 30 miles use) I noticed the paint pealing as well as some other weird traits like a really bad tape job. Frayed cable ends, not bad and almost unnoticabe. I believe the bike was used and cleaned up and passed off as new. It was discounted but not unlike any previous model year. 
Any way, took bike back and received a new model year Tarmac Sport, much nicer by the way. Specialized took care of me but the bike shop failed in every way. I was patient as it took most three weeks despite a very quick decision from Specialized. Once the new bike arrived at the shop I was told it would be ready the day I contacted them or the next day. I called them two days later and the bike was still in the box. I got upset and complained. Would it not be a great effort for shop reputation and customer service leading to positive word of mouth referrals from happy customers had the bike been delivered immediately. Apparantly not it took two more days to get the bike. I quote the manager " Are you not happy we got you a new bike?" I thought thats what I bought. No reply to that question by the way.
The dealer was arrogant and after getting my money less than supportive, I had expected this from Specialized. I do not care for the way they do business but I did get decent support despite the shop. Seems to be lots of drama where ever Specialized is.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

My brother and I are/were small builder developers (now both retired). Between the two of us, we've been involved in litigation against governments from the city to the federal level. We have also brought litigation against two major corporations.

We have never lost a case, including one that went to the US Supreme Court (they substantiated the findings of the 9th circuit).

I don't mean to cast doubt on your brilliance in this matter as I'm sure you are an x-spurt.


Pirx said:


> Yep, and it is a well established fact that 99.73% of all statistics people quote are made up on the spot.
> 
> In this particular case, you have to be naïve to an extent that truly boggles the mind to not understand the role that resources (or lack thereof) play in corporate litigation.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

Specialized calls for dealers to drop brands | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

Personally don't like how they manhandle their dealer network and it doesn't help that more than a few local shops that are Spec dealers aren't very good or open. Brought a friend's high end TCR in to get some chain rings and a new cassette and all they did was try and blast how bad it was and how I should (told them it's not even my bike) buy a Specialized instead of buying those maintenance parts. Needless to say I didn't buy the parts from them and I don't frequent that shop either even though it's the closest to home.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

makeitso said:


> Specialized calls for dealers to drop brands | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
> 
> Personally don't like how they manhandle their dealer network and it doesn't help that more than a few local shops that are Spec dealers aren't very good or open. Brought a friend's high end TCR in to get some chain rings and a new cassette and *all they did was try and blast how bad it was and how I should (told them it's not even my bike) buy a Specialized instead of buying those maintenance parts*. Needless to say I didn't buy the parts from them and I don't frequent that shop either even though it's the closest to home.


That can happen at any shop with lame employees. It is not a "Specialized-only" trait.

It has more to do with a lame shop trying to make a sale rather than respect customers and the good products (regardless of brand) that they bring in for maintenance.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

SwiftSolo said:


> My brother and I are/were small builder developers (now both retired). Between the two of us, we've been involved in litigation against governments from the city to the federal level. We have also brought litigation against two major corporations.
> 
> We have never lost a case, including one that went to the US Supreme Court (they substantiated the findings of the 9th circuit).
> 
> I don't mean to cast doubt on your brilliance in this matter as I'm sure you are an x-spurt.


Appeal to authority (this makes you an expert on IP law how?), anecdotal (we never lost a case), tu quoque (you didn't actually make a defensible argument, you just turned the position around), strawman ("This thread has been a fun trip into folklore..."), and of course the standard ad hominem (towards Pirx). 

For a supposed lawyer, you sure seem to lack the ability to make and support a case on a bike forum, let alone at the SCOTUS level. Do you have an actual argument where you can show that any claims in this tread regarding Specialized's legal dep't was "folklore?" Would you like to point out a specific example that someone got wrong about our legal system and explain how they got it wrong? If not, you are either full of **** or a lazy ahole. Take your pick. Or make an argument without an abundance of logical fallacies when you decide to flex your condescending muscles.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

Chader09 said:


> That can happen at any shop with lame employees. It is not a "Specialized-only" trait.
> 
> It has more to do with a lame shop trying to make a sale rather than respect customers and the good products (regardless of brand) that they bring in for maintenance.


True, but I get fed it more @ Specialized shops. But again, you're right it's a case by case issue. But it happens enough so, along with Specialized hostile business practices, that I'd choose to spend my money elsewhere. I'm not saying that they have a bad product, only one that I choose not to buy normally.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

davidka said:


> Trek is the same as any brand in that they offer tiered pricing. They are such a successful brand (like Specialized) that they command a majority in most of their dealers and those dealers are happy to do it, since it makes them more successful. If a shop carries both Trek and Specialized, neither makes up 60% (assuming there is another brand present) so the 60% rule is false.
> 
> 
> 
> If a dealer loses a brand, it is only natural that customers take their products to another authorized dealer. I don't know of any major brand, in any industry that services outside of their dealer network, mostly because their authorized dealers demand it, not the manufacturer.


If you are a small reputable dealer, you don't want to lose your past customers. If you have a good honest reliable bike shop, you don't want to have to take your business elsewhere just because your bike shop had a falling out with the brand.

Make sense?


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Your reading skills carry the same level of understanding as your argument. What part of "retired builder developer" makes me a "lawyer". Try reading my post real slow this time. 

To help you out, as a builder developer you either have to contribute to the campaign of elected officials or know that the permitting process is going to require quality legal support. Further, if you retain some of your developments you sometimes run into further issues with governments and or product manufacturers (in our case major siding and roofing issues on fairly large complexes).

Regarding Specialized--I see the blanket statements about their dealers and know first hand that those were mostly pulled out of someone's ass (I've bought several bikes from two large Specialized dealers over the last 30 years). Further, until I see evidence of litigation that was settled in a court of law, I will assume and assign the same level of credibility as the blanket statements about Specialized dealers.

Finally, I've been around long enough to realize that a certain amount of hatred is always assigned to companies that have grown to a significant amount of market share. Also-rans like losers and dislike winners. 

To further help you out, It is substantially more difficult to prove that something didn't happen than did. So the moment your provide the court findings in all of this litigation that I believe is mostly fantasy, I will apologize for suggesting that you (and others) may have been talking our of your ass. It is pretty easy to fabricate claims about business and individuals.


headloss said:


> Appeal to authority (this makes you an expert on IP law how?), anecdotal (we never lost a case), tu quoque (you didn't actually make a defensible argument, you just turned the position around), strawman ("This thread has been a fun trip into folklore..."), and of course the standard ad hominem (towards Pirx).
> 
> For a supposed lawyer, you sure seem to lack the ability to make and support a case on a bike forum, let alone at the SCOTUS level. Do you have an actual argument where you can show that any claims in this tread regarding Specialized's legal dep't was "folklore?" Would you like to point out a specific example that someone got wrong about our legal system and explain how they got it wrong? If not, you are either full of **** or a lazy ahole. Take your pick. Or make an argument without an abundance of logical fallacies when you decide to flex your condescending muscles.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> If you are a small reputable dealer, you don't want to lose your past customers. If you have a good honest reliable bike shop, you don't want to have to take your business elsewhere just because your bike shop had a falling out with the brand.
> 
> Make sense?


Makes sense, but it's not a good example of how things really happen in business. If a brand realizes that there is greater potential in the marketplace than their dealer is capturing then the choices are to get/help their dealer to grow(expand or open more stores), open other dealers, or move their business to a larger dealer with more potential.

If the small, reputable dealer is unwilling to grow, then they wind up losing out, but that's their choice.


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## GOTA (Aug 27, 2012)

Specialized apologises for anti-social cycling by its staff on company rides | road.cc

Specialized has apologized to people living in the Californian city where it is based for anti-social riding by employees on lunchtime group rides from its headquarters.

The apology was made in an open letter from the US bike brand that was published on the website of local newspaper The Morgan Hill Times.

It came after a video was shared on Facebook last month by a journalist from San Francisco based TV station KRON4, who had received it from a viewer concerned about the behaviour of some of the cyclists.

The video was accompanied by an email from the viewer, whose name was not disclosed, in which a number of allegations were made against participants on the daily rides.....

....The viewer claimed: “They run red lights, stop signs and in general take over the local streets. Although our little town has very wide bike lanes these riders ride 3-5 abreast and block all auto traffic in that direction.

“If there are children in the crosswalks as they run an intersection they are 'buzzed' by the cyclists that can number up to 60, zooming by at speed up to 24mph.

“I have seen the lead riders swarm cars that, although having the right of way, the lead cyclist seemed to feel were in their way.

“They beat on the sheet metal and pound on the glass of these cars. I have witnessed children in these cars in hysterics as they thought they would be harmed by the riders.”

The person said that they had contacted local police about the riders’ behaviour, who had in turn got in touch with Specialized.

They claimed to have received “thinly veiled threats” from people who said they worked for the company, and that Specialized had said part of the problem was hiring foreign riders who “do not understand US traffic laws” and that “many of the bikes being ridden are prototypes that must be tested in race track conditions so they are not required to obey traffic controls.”


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

GOTA said:


> Specialized apologises for anti-social cycling by its staff on company rides | road.cc
> 
> Specialized has apologized to people living in the Californian city where it is based for anti-social riding by employees on lunchtime group rides from its headquarters.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Specialized is attempting CYA.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Sound like they, being the HUGE company they are, need to build themselves a test track, or maybe just a bigger car park, so they can run some in house prototype racing.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, judging from that video and testimony from an unidentified (but completely reliable) source, it is clear that they are guilty. I did have to run the video backwards to see the part where they terrorized little children by beating on the windows and sheet metal of cars.

The running of the stop sign, on what was clearly a heavily trafficed interstate crossing, was all the evidence I needed to see to know that all the claims against them are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Lombard said:


> Sounds like Specialized is attempting CYA.


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## GOTA (Aug 27, 2012)

Specialized did apologize. They didn't dispute any of it.

Cannondale was founded in my town. They had moved a couple towns away 20 years ago but about 2 years ago returned. There have been no issues at all. In fact they've put significant money into a local walking/biking trail which I doubt would have gotten built without their help. That's a very different attitude from what is presented in the Specialized story


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

GOTA said:


> Specialized did apologize. They didn't dispute any of it.
> 
> Cannondale was founded in my town. They had moved a couple towns away 20 years ago but about 2 years ago returned. There have been no issues at all. In fact they've put significant money into a local walking/biking trail which I doubt would have gotten built without their help. That's a very different attitude from what is presented in the Specialized story


Cannondale was a totally different kind of company. I say "was" because after two Chapter 11 bankruptcies, they were taken over by Dorel, a Canadian conglomerate. They still make great bikes, but they are no longer made in the US, all are made in Taiwan.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

davidka said:


> Trek is the same as any brand in that they offer tiered pricing. They are such a successful brand (like Specialized) that they command a majority in most of their dealers and those dealers are happy to do it, since it makes them more successful. If a shop carries both Trek and Specialized, neither makes up 60% (assuming there is another brand present) so the 60% rule is false.


Not entirely true. I don't know for sure about Specialized. I know that Trek requires a 60% stock for a bike shop to call themselves an authorized Trek dealer. That is not to say the shop cannot sell any of Trek's bikes.

Furthermore, I have yet to find a shop that sells both Trek AND Specialized. It is even unusual to find a shop that sells both Trek and Cannondale, though they do exist.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> Not entirely true. I don't know for sure about Specialized. I know that Trek requires a 60% stock for a bike shop to call themselves an authorized Trek dealer. That is not to say the shop cannot sell any of Trek's bikes.
> 
> Furthermore, I have yet to find a shop that sells both Trek AND Specialized. It is even unusual to find a shop that sells both Trek and Cannondale, though they do exist.


You don't know that because it's not true. Trek, like any company will sell their goods through the best retailer in a market and if that means they get 30% of the floor in a mega store instead of 100% of a tiny mom n' pop shop a county away then that's what they'll do. I've been in shops like this. Large stores that sell Trek and Specialized are fairly common, it just depends where you are. I have been in stores that carry both lines in several states.


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## NickD (May 11, 2015)

Lombard said:


> Not entirely true. I don't know for sure about Specialized. I know that Trek requires a 60% stock for a bike shop to call themselves an authorized Trek dealer. That is not to say the shop cannot sell any of Trek's bikes.
> 
> Furthermore, I have yet to find a shop that sells both Trek AND Specialized. It is even unusual to find a shop that sells both Trek and Cannondale, though they do exist.


Gregg's has several locations in greater Seattle. Trek, Spesh, and lots more. They sell lots of bikes. Some darn good employees, some not so good. See the brands on the left of this website:
Bikes - Gregg's Cycles


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

over at MTBR, they like to use "Special-Ed".

Sold my Specialized Enduro years ago and that was the last Specialized product I have and will ever own. Adios and good riddance.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

NickD said:


> Gregg's has several locations in greater Seattle. Trek, Spesh, and lots more. They sell lots of bikes. Some darn good employees, some not so good. See the brands on the left of this website:
> Bikes - Gregg's Cycles


Greg's sells all of the big 3, and a few other brands as well. Their accessories seem to be dominated by specialized products though.

It's purely coincidence, but Greggs ( all 3 locations) are my last resort bike shops in the area. Both I and most people I know have had bad experiences ( in varying degrees) there.


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## GOTA (Aug 27, 2012)

Lombard said:


> Cannondale was a totally different kind of company. I say "was" because after two Chapter 11 bankruptcies, they were taken over by Dorel, a Canadian conglomerate. They still make great bikes, but they are no longer made in the US, all are made in Taiwan.


Which major brand isn't mostly made in Taiwan or China? That's all of them including Specialized. Specialized has been 49% owned by Taiwanese company Merida since 2001. Guess who's making a good chunk of the Specialized bikes

Danny's Bikes which has about 15 locations in the NYC area carries Specialized, Trek, Giant and a bunch of other brands. Maybe Trek and Specialized bully the smaller stores but that doesn't seem to be the case for the ones with size that carry those branfs

Road Bikes - Danny's Cycles NYC NY CT


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

GOTA said:


> Which major brand isn't mostly made in Taiwan or China? That's all of them including Specialized. Specialized has been 49% owned by Taiwanese company Merida since 2001. Guess who's making a good chunk of the Specialized bikes.


Specialized, Giant and many others have been made in China or Taiwan for quite some time. Cannondale and Trek were the last two major brands to move production there. I believe the last USA made bikes by Trek and Cannondale were either 2009 or 2010.



GOTA said:


> Danny's Bikes which has about 15 locations in the NYC area carries Specialized, Trek, Giant and a bunch of other brands. Maybe Trek and Specialized bully the smaller stores but that doesn't seem to be the case for the ones with size that carry those brands
> 
> Road Bikes - Danny's Cycles NYC NY CT


OK, I stand corrected about the "60% rule". More than one bike shop I visited stated this about Trek. I'm sure if there really is such a "rule", it can be bent with a little back scratching.

I have been in many bike shops and have yet to see Trek and Specialized together. I mostly frequent the smaller shops with the exception of Toga in NYC which has 3 different locations. Even they don't sell Trek, but sell many other brands. I think you hit the nail on the head about some of the big brands bullying the smaller shops.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> over at MTBR, they like to use "Special-Ed".


Not nice.  I much prefer Specia-Lied.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Store i bought my last road bike from sell Specialised and Cannondale... I would think the large brands wouldn't want their biggest competitors in the same store, but sometimes they won;t have a choice, or it's in their best intrest to do it.

And Trek still make their high end stuff in the US


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mik_git said:


> Store i bought my last road bike from sell Specialised and Cannondale... I would think the large brands wouldn't want their biggest competitors in the same store, but sometimes they won;t have a choice, or it's in their best intrest to do it.


Ah, the difference between push and pull retail. In this arena, might indeed makes right. Just look at Wal-Mart. If you are large enough, you call the shots regardless of which end you are on.




mik_git said:


> And Trek still make their high end stuff in the US


Only a small number of Trek's VERY high end bikes ($8,000+) are made in the US. The rest are made in China or Taiwan.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

The dominant LBS in the Houston area sells both Trek and Specialized, and keep a pretty full inventory of both on the floor, side by side. Last I saw ((2014) they were the 7th largest retailer of Trek bikes in the U.S.

What difference does it make where they are manufactured?


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Lombard said:


> Only a small number of Trek's VERY high end bikes ($8,000+) are made in the US. The rest are made in China or Taiwan.


There are 11 bikes on Trek website that they say are made in USA, from the Emoda S (custom, so probably more) satrting at $4200...

And yeah, I'd expect if they are made in USA to be higher end, wages scale of manufacturing etc. If it's going to be made in USA, or any other non Asian contry, it's usually a premium (and that s for everything, except cars maybe).


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> . I believe the last USA made bikes by Trek and Cannondale were either 2009 or 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I stand corrected about the "60% rule". More than one bike shop I visited stated this about Trek. I'm sure if there really is such a "rule", it can be bent with a little back scratching.


You don't need to " believe", it's very easy to verify on line with a little search. 
Factory Tour: Trek Bicycle Company?s Waterloo Headquarters, Part 1

Trek still makes the Emonda SLR, the new Madone, and the Speed Concept, as well as all of the carbon road wheels and all high end wheel assembly, Project 1 painting and assembly in Waterloo. You can take a tour and see all of it happen.


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## pittsey (Oct 12, 2012)

jnbrown said:


> Can only buy their products in a Specialized store at a fixed price.
> 
> Specialized stores carry only Specialized products and there are a lot of them reducing the choice of options when buying from a LBS.
> 
> Their saddle policy really sucks. You can't test a saddle, you have to buy it and then only have seven days to exchange it. That is why I bought one of my saddles off Ebay for a lower price.


1) This is good for bike shops. And they do have sales you know?

2)Not true, my LBS carries specialized, raleigh, bianchi, surly, and some more. 

3)Not true again. Same LBS allows 30 days to return saddles.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mik_git said:


> There are 11 bikes on Trek website that they say are made in USA, from the Emoda S (custom, so probably more) satrting at $4200...


OK, I stand corrected on number of bikes and lowest price. This is still a very limited number and all high end bikes - all but one are the Emonda. One high end Madone at the ridiculous price of $13,000.



mik_git said:


> And yeah, I'd expect if they are made in USA to be higher end, wages scale of manufacturing etc. If it's going to be made in USA, or any other non Asian contry, it's usually a premium (and that s for everything, except cars maybe).


I guess it serves a purpose to keep a skeleton crew of living wage workers in the US to 1) Serve a niche market to ultra-patriotic people who will pay anything to buy American. 2) Force the issue that unless you treat workers like slaves, you will pay a hefty premium.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I wonder what the standard is for the "made in USA" label?


mik_git said:


> There are 11 bikes on Trek website that they say are made in USA, from the Emoda S (custom, so probably more) satrting at $4200...
> 
> And yeah, I'd expect if they are made in USA to be higher end, wages scale of manufacturing etc. If it's going to be made in USA, or any other non Asian contry, it's usually a premium (and that s for everything, except cars maybe).


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> I wonder what the standard is for the "made in USA" label?


Good question. Does that simply mean final assembly in USA regardless of where any of the parts originate? Possibly frame made in USA? I think we can be pretty sure the origin of the components including wheelset doesn't factor in the USA label.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

jnbrown said:


> Their saddle policy really sucks. You can't test a saddle, you have to buy it and then only have seven days to exchange it.


Why would they just give you a saddle? Especially one that costs over a hundred dollars?

Two local shops have big selections of test saddles. I've tried a couple and returned them.

I don't see a problem.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Good question. Does that simply mean final assembly in USA regardless of where any of the parts originate? Possibly frame made in USA? I think we can be pretty sure the origin of the components including wheelset doesn't factor in the USA label.


The top level Trek frames are made in the US. Not much else will be. SRAM may be a US company, but their components are made overseas. Made in USA isn't the same as Assembled in USA. For a couple of years after frame production was moved to Taiwan, Cannondale bikes were "Assembled in the USA". Now that ended, too.


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## kookieCANADA (Jan 20, 2011)

As far as I know, Trek road bikes that are built using OCLV 700 are "Made in the USA"; Madone 9 H1 and Emonda SLR.

In the past, the Madone 6 series (OCLV 600) was "Made in the USA" until a couple of years ago has now moved to Asia.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

makeitso said:


> Specialized calls for dealers to drop brands | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
> 
> Personally don't like how they manhandle their dealer network and it doesn't help that more than a few local shops that are Spec dealers aren't very good or open. Brought a friend's high end TCR in to get some chain rings and a new cassette and all they did was try and blast how bad it was and how I should (told them it's not even my bike) buy a Specialized instead of buying those maintenance parts. Needless to say I didn't buy the parts from them and I don't frequent that shop either even though it's the closest to home.


That article was from 2012. I know a shop (chain of 3) that sells Specialized, Giant, and Pinarello, today.

GH


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

headloss said:


> Appeal to authority (this makes you an expert on IP law how?), anecdotal (we never lost a case), tu quoque (you didn't actually make a defensible argument, you just turned the position around), strawman ("This thread has been a fun trip into folklore..."), and of course the standard ad hominem (towards Pirx).
> 
> For a supposed lawyer, you sure seem to lack the ability to make and support a case on a bike forum, let alone at the SCOTUS level. Do you have an actual argument where you can show that any claims in this tread regarding Specialized's legal dep't was "folklore?" Would you like to point out a specific example that someone got wrong about our legal system and explain how they got it wrong? If not, you are either full of **** or a lazy ahole. Take your pick. Or make an argument without an abundance of logical fallacies when you decide to flex your condescending muscles.


While the courts may not get a case wrong, often. Often the cases don't make it to court. If Fuji's parent company had not come in to save the day with that small shop/cafe with the name Roubaix, they probably would have had to change their name, because they did not have the funds to fight the lawsuit. 

Now, in a similar vein. World Wrestling (Federation) Entertainment did lose their lawsuit againt the World Wildlife Fund for using the acronym WWF. And lost the suit so badly that they had to stop using the acronym, and, thus, decided to change their name. So, if a trademark case makes it to court, then the court will usually make the correct decision. But often they don't make it to court, because one side cannot afford the legal bill.

GH


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

davidka said:


> You don't need to " believe", it's very easy to verify on line with a little search.
> Factory Tour: Trek Bicycle Company?s Waterloo Headquarters, Part 1
> 
> Trek still makes the Emonda SLR, the new Madone, and the Speed Concept, as well as all of the carbon road wheels and all high end wheel assembly, Project 1 painting and assembly in Waterloo. You can take a tour and see all of it happen.


And how does this page answer the question to my "I believe" remark? Did I miss something?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mpre53 said:


> The top level Trek frames are made in the US. Not much else will be. SRAM may be a US company, but their components are made overseas. Made in USA isn't the same as Assembled in USA. For a couple of years after frame production was moved to Taiwan, Cannondale bikes were "Assembled in the USA". Now that ended, too.


So are you saying if it says "Made in USA", that the frame is built in the USA? And if it is assembled in USA with all foreign parts including an overseas made frame, you're saying it cannot say "Made in USA", or can it?


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## GOTA (Aug 27, 2012)

Lombard said:


> So are you saying if it says "Made in USA", that the frame is built in the USA? And if it is assembled in USA with all foreign parts including an overseas made frame, you're saying it cannot say "Made in USA", or can it?


If it is assembled in the USA with foreign parts it cannot say Made in the USA. It can only say Assembled in the USA if the assembly was substantially done in the USA. If it's partially assembled and shipped here it must have a Made in sticker from whatever country it's from. Those are the Federal Trade Commission rules


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Lombard said:


> So are you saying if it says "Made in USA", that the frame is built in the USA? And if it is assembled in USA with all foreign parts including an overseas made frame, you're saying it cannot say "Made in USA", or can it?


If it says Made in the USA, the frame is what is made here. Bike manufacturers don't make drive train components, and there are none made in the US. If you have a CAAD 9 or earlier alloy frame Cannondale, you have a frame that was made in the USA. There may be a label on the seat tube that says that, if it wasn't removed. My Synapse has a label that says Made in Taiwan. That doesn't mean that my drive group was made there. Or my wheelset, or tires, or bars, or bar tape, or saddle. Just my frame. Which is what you buy when you buy a "Cannondale"---plus the fork. Even though my frame was, in reality, likely made by Giant. Every component, or at least the box it came in, is labeled with its own country of origin. For example, my Ultegra cassette has "Japan" embossed on the lock ring, and replacement ones have that on the box.


I also doubt that there is such a thing as an automobile that is 100% American made, down to every little component. You probably don't care whether your spark plugs, for example, were made by Champion, NGK, Autolite, or whoever, or where they were made. Or where the seemingly gazillion sensors and other electronic componets of a modern vehicle were made. Neither does the FTC. My understanding is that a manufacturer can use a certain percentage of foreign components in a finished product, and still keep the "Made in USA" designation.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

kookieCANADA said:


> As far as I know, Trek road bikes that are built using OCLV 700 are "Made in the USA"; Madone 9 H1 and Emonda SLR.
> 
> In the past, the Madone 6 series (OCLV 600) was "Made in the USA" until a couple of years ago has now moved to Asia.


Actually, it may only be the "Race Shop Limited" model of the Madone that still has the frame made in Wisconsin.

In any event, the way that one would avoid the whole "Made in USA" rigamarole would be to advertise a product as "Made in the USA from both domestic and imported components" or words to that effect. So long as the major components and the final assembly were done in the US, and a substantial amount of the manufacturing process took place here. The most time, labor, and cost intensive steps of the manufacturing would be the lay up and production of the frame.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mpre53 said:


> If it says Made in the USA, the frame is what is made here. Bike manufacturers don't make drive train components, and there are none made in the US. If you have a CAAD 9 or earlier alloy frame Cannondale, you have a frame that was made in the USA. There may be a label on the seat tube that says that, if it wasn't removed. My Synapse has a label that says Made in Taiwan. That doesn't mean that my drive group was made there. Or my wheelset, or tires, or bars, or bar tape, or saddle. Just my frame. Which is what you buy when you buy a "Cannondale"---plus the fork. Even though my frame was, in reality, likely made by Giant. Every component, or at least the box it came in, is labeled with its own country of origin. For example, my Ultegra cassette has "Japan" embossed on the lock ring, and replacement ones have that on the box.
> 
> 
> I also doubt that there is such a thing as an automobile that is 100% American made, down to every little component. You probably don't care whether your spark plugs, for example, were made by Champion, NGK, Autolite, or whoever, or where they were made. Or where the seemingly gazillion sensors and other electronic componets of a modern vehicle were made. Neither does the FTC. My understanding is that a manufacturer can use a certain percentage of foreign components in a finished product, and still keep the "Made in USA" designation.


I know that 2009 Synapses have "Made in USA" on the seat tube. There are actually a few components made by "or possibly re-badged by" bike makers, like the Cannondale Hollowgram Cranks not to mention the older CODA components, Cannondale Earth hubs, stems, brake levers, etc. Specialized and Trek (Bontrager) does this too.

Regarding automobiles, new car stickers are now required to disclose significant percentages (25% or more) of where its parts come from.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I understand it. It's their business practices...the lawsuits, requiring dealers to carry ONLY their products. I know there are some shops that carry Specialized as well as a few other brands, but those shops are few and far between. Those are shops that have been around the block with Specialized for the most part. If you only knew how many shops out there used to carry Specialized, until Specialized decided to try to bully them into carrying only Specialized products. They wanted to offer the buyer options, so now they don't carry Specialized. 

Trek gets the same hate for pulling the same shenanigans, and with them now offering online sales, the hate is really gonna fly. Death to the LBS if this catches on. Ethics just don't play a part in how these companies run. I won't buy a Trek again after what they did to LeMond and sold my last Specialized three years ago. Both make great bikes, but I can't consciously support either company's business practices. I opt for other great bikes. Felt and Cannondale are my flavors now.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

terbennett said:


> I understand it. It's their business practices...the lawsuits, requiring dealers to carry ONLY their products. ...


Must be where I live. In the Houston area there are six Specialized dealers: Bike Barn (7 locations), Sugar Cycles, Daniel Boone Cycles, Bay Area Schwinn, West End Bicycles and Bike Land. They range from very large (Bike Barn) to small mom and pop (Daniel Boone. None of them are limited to just Specialized - they all have multiple brands on the floor competing for sales. Trek is similar, being sold by Bike Barn (again), Southwest Cycleries, Spring Valley Cycles, Northwest Cyclery, and Bike Werks. Uniquely in our area, Bike Barn sells both, and carry a pretty full inventory of both. The others have other competing brands in both road and off-road bikes.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

terbennett said:


> I understand it. It's their business practices...the lawsuits, requiring dealers to carry ONLY their products. I know there are some shops that carry Specialized as well as a few other brands, but those shops are few and far between. Those are shops that have been around the block with Specialized for the most part. If you only knew how many shops out there used to carry Specialized, until Specialized decided to try to bully them into carrying only Specialized products. They wanted to offer the buyer options, so now they don't carry Specialized.
> 
> Trek gets the same hate for pulling the same shenanigans, and with them now offering online sales, the hate is really gonna fly. Death to the LBS if this catches on. Ethics just don't play a part in how these companies run. I won't buy a Trek again after what they did to LeMond and sold my last Specialized three years ago. Both make great bikes, but I can't consciously support either company's business practices. I opt for other great bikes. Felt and Cannondale are my flavors now.


Trek is also getting a lot of recent hate for weaseling out of warranty claims. Pebbles should not crack a carbon frame.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Trek is also getting a lot of recent hate for weaseling out of warranty claims. Pebbles should not crack a carbon frame.


That problem isn't limited to Trek. Warranties, broadly are pretty much the same - defects in workmanship and materials only, not damage from external sources.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ibericb said:


> That problem isn't limited to Trek. Warranties, broadly are pretty much the same - defects in workmanship and materials only, not damage from external sources.


If tiny pebbles kicked up by your front tire or bike rack straps crack a frame, there is a problem with the frame. We are not talking about rocks, we are talking about pebbles. Trek will find any inane reason to get out of a warranty claim for their defective OCLV downtubes. Trek has done this in a number of instances. Cannondale and Giant do not do this unless there is evidence of obvious abuse or misuse.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> If tiny pebbles kicked up by your front tire or bike rack straps crack a frame, there is a problem with the frame. ...


Your disdain for Trek is noted. You're certainly free to choose what or who you like and don't, for any reason important to you, and will get no argument from me. But if, as you say, "tiny pebbles kicked up by your front tire ... crack a frame", then you would probably have been lucky to get even 10 miles of riding on such a weak frame. That description defies credibility, IMO.


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## bbulmann (Aug 22, 2012)

Too many stickers. I want to ride a bike, not a billboard. I'll stick to my Merckx. Hand made, rides better, and looks better, too.

Oh wait... Spec just came out with a Cavendish version of the Venge with less than 10 "Specialized" logos all over it. Man, if only I had $11k.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> And how does this page answer the question to my "I believe" remark? Did I miss something?


Your post implied that you believed Trek had not made frames in the USA since 2009. The link I provided is proof that they have been making frames (and carbon wheels) continuously through today.



Lombard said:


> If tiny pebbles kicked up by your front tire or bike rack straps crack a frame, there is a problem with the frame. We are not talking about rocks, we are talking about pebbles. Trek will find any inane reason to get out of a warranty claim for their defective OCLV downtubes. Trek has done this in a number of instances. Cannondale and Giant do not do this unless there is evidence of obvious abuse or misuse.


This is anecdotal. Pebbles don't crack the downtube of any bike that could pass CPSC testing. Plainly, this claim is a lie.

Did you know that *racing* a Giant bike voids its warranty?
FAQs - Giant Bicycles | United States


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## GOTA (Aug 27, 2012)

ibericb said:


> Must be where I live. In the Houston area there are six Specialized dealers: Bike Barn (7 locations), Sugar Cycles, Daniel Boone Cycles, Bay Area Schwinn, West End Bicycles and Bike Land. They range from very large (Bike Barn) to small mom and pop (Daniel Boone. None of them are limited to just Specialized - they all have multiple brands on the floor competing for sales. Trek is similar, being sold by Bike Barn (again), Southwest Cycleries, Spring Valley Cycles, Northwest Cyclery, and Bike Werks. Uniquely in our area, Bike Barn sells both, and carry a pretty full inventory of both. The others have other competing brands in both road and off-road bikes.


That's how it is in the New York area as well. Lots of Specialized dealers but I don't know any that don't carry other brands including other big brands. 

In my town is a Specialized/Cannondale shop. In the town North of me is a Specialized/Giant shop. To the East is a Specialized/Raleigh/Jamis/Fuji shop. To the West is a Specialized/Trek shop. I don't know any that just sell Specialized


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

davidka said:


> Your post implied that you believed Trek had not made frames in the USA since 2009. The link I provided is proof that they have been making frames (and carbon wheels) continuously through today.


OK, my comment was technically wrong, but in the grand scheme of things correct. Trek used to make nearly all of its frames in USA until either 2009 or 2010. Today, they only make a small percentage of their frames in USA and all those are high end, all except one are the Emonda.





davidka said:


> This is anecdotal. Pebbles don't crack the downtube of any bike that could pass CPSC testing. Plainly, this claim is a lie.


Possibly, though I doubt it. There are too many instances of cracked downtubes on OCLV frames to not suspect a defect.



davidka said:


> Did you know that *racing* a Giant bike voids its warranty?
> FAQs - Giant Bicycles | United States


And how could "racing" be proven? Witnesses please? This is just silly. Racing that results in a crash? Well, of course you can't expect a warranty to cover a crash or any kind of abuse or misuse. But believe it or not, Cannondale does have a crash replacement program. And I have yet to hear of Giant turning its back on a reasonable claim. As the saying goes, a warranty is only as good as the company behind it.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> OK, my comment was technically wrong, but in the grand scheme of things correct. Trek used to make nearly all of its frames in USA until either 2009 or 2010. Today, they only make a small percentage of their frames in USA and all those are high end, all except one are the Emonda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Emonda, Speed Concept, Madone 7 series, and all OCLV Bontrager rims & wheel assembly, plus all P1 bike assembly. Trek also has a factory in Germany. It's a global company. Decisions have to be made to make the most competitive products for the market. If the customers had rewarded Trek for continuing to make more in the USA (at the requisite higher price) then they would still do it (as would others). 

Why do you believe that more OCLV downtubes crack than other carbon makes? Your posts are the only place I have ever heard this.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

davidka said:


> Emonda, Speed Concept, Madone 7 series, and all OCLV Bontrager rims & wheel assembly, plus all P1 bike assembly. Trek also has a factory in Germany. It's a global company. Decisions have to be made to make the most competitive products for the market. If the customers had rewarded Trek for continuing to make more in the USA (at the requisite higher price) then they would still do it (as would others).
> 
> Why do you believe that more OCLV downtubes crack than other carbon makes? Your posts are the only place I have ever heard this.


Re: Trek cracked OCLV downtubes - I know many riders personally in a large bike club. At least 3 had this issue with Trek, no other brands. At least two local bike shops have seen this in a number of instances on recent OCLV frames (not older ones).

Re: USA made vs. not - Mostly Emonda and one Madone were the only ones listed as USA made according to their website. And who makes Bontrager wheels anyway? Does Trek actually make those or are they rebadged? And no, I am not bashing Trek for this one. Most bike brands have moved production to Asia with the exception of a few boutique brands. Your global economy point is well taken. I was just stating what was/is.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard said:


> Re: USA made vs. not - Mostly Emonda and one Madone were the only ones listed as USA made according to their website. And who makes Bontrager wheels anyway? Does Trek actually make those or are they rebadged? .


The carbon rims are molded and assembled into wheels in Waterloo, Wisconsin. You can take a tour and watch them do it.

I live and race in the Midwest, where Trek is the dominant brand. I've yet to see or hear of a downtube cracking in a JRA (no crash or obvious circumstance). I could see the SLR being on the delicate side as it's extremely thin walled and light but I still think pebble strikes are a stretch. I've seen guys racing them at gravel races before.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

davidka said:


> The carbon rims are molded and assembled into wheels in Waterloo, Wisconsin. You can take a tour and watch them do it.


Ah, here again the high end stuff. How about the alloy wheels the rest of us use. I'm pretty sure those are now made in Asia. And I have a story to tell about those too. I have a 2007 Trek Pilot 5.0 which had Bontrager Race wheels. At 4,000 miles, the eyelets in the rear wheel had cracks in them. At 170 lbs., I'm not a heavy guy either.



davidka said:


> I live and race in the Midwest, where Trek is the dominant brand. I've yet to see or hear of a downtube cracking in a JRA (no crash or obvious circumstance). I could see the SLR being on the delicate side as it's extremely thin walled and light but I still think pebble strikes are a stretch. I've seen guys racing them at gravel races before.


Gravel races? Well yes, I would consider that misuse on a road bike. I can assure you the riders I know with the cracked frames do not engage in gravel races.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

SO...what do you want? You said they didn't make US bikes anymore, but they do, you said they didn't make wheels in the US, but they do. Sure it's high end, but if they made all their frames in the US, then they would all be high end, Trek makes bikes across the spectrum and that means most are made in Asia. It pretty damn impressive they make anything in the US.

SO are you wanting them to make most of their stuff in the US, or do you just want to be right on a technicality (but still wrong)


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Gravel races? Well yes, I would consider that misuse on a road bike. I can assure you the riders I know with the cracked frames do not engage in gravel races.


You seem to be the only one who knows about all these mysteriously cracked OCLV downtubes. Why haven't we heard this more broadly?


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Their PR department really goes all out.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ibericb said:


> You seem to be the only one who knows about all these mysteriously cracked OCLV downtubes. Why haven't we heard this more broadly?


Not so mysterious:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ge...ck-voids-warranty-abnormal-riding-308696.html 

Trek Warranty..Be careful | Bicycling Magazine Forums 

Cracked carbon frames -- who has had problems?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Not so mysterious:
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ge...ck-voids-warranty-abnormal-riding-308696.html


1. Not the kind of failure (_"tiny pebbles kicked up by your front tire or bike rack straps crack a frame"_) you suggested are commonplace. 

2. Read the enitre thread - the OP's assertions that you point to is generally called out as bogus). 



> Trek Warranty..Be careful | Bicycling Magazine Forums


Again, the failure the OP noted in that thread is completely unrelated to your assertions of weak OCLV downtubes. Be sure to read all of the thread. The overwhelming message is that Trek's warranty service, by those who have experienced, is first rate.



> Cracked carbon frames -- who has had problems?


Again, another failed tube, this one a top tube, where the OP simply states they don't know how it happened. Nobody in that thread makes any assertion of a defect in the tube or frame construction.

As best I can tell, from the references you cited, your assertions remain incredible, and unsupported. The overwhelming message in those threads is Trek's warranty support is sound for defects, but that they are discerning. As one who spent the majority of his professional career in materials development research, which included a lot of failure analysis, I can tell you that it's pretty easy for those experienced in materials analysis to determine the mode of failure by inspection. The differences between impact failures vs. internal stress risers, voids, etc. is not difficult to determine. That's what Trek does when they are confronted with a warranty claim for frame failure. 

BTW, here's another thread you missed that speaks to the quality of Trek's warranty support for valid claims, oh and another from just two days ago. 

I can assure you that the very last thing that an OEM like Trek wants to to be offering to the public are flawed frames that can fail due to defects. I am sure there are some that happen. But I am also confident that the rate of failure for Trek is no greater than the industry's overall average (which is very, very low), and when real defects are found they handle those entirely consistent with their warranty.

In short, you have yet to supply anything credible to support your assertions that Trek's frames are somehow flawed, or that _"Trek will find any inane reason to get out of a warranty claim for their defective OCLV downtubes"_. Your accounts of pebbles cracking frames remain purely anecdotal and unsubstantiated.

Want to try again?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ibericb said:


> 1. Not the kind of failure (_"tiny pebbles kicked up by your front tire or bike rack straps crack a frame"_) you suggested are commonplace.
> 
> 2. Read the enitre thread - the OP's assertions that you point to is generally called out as bogus).
> 
> ...


Are you sure you aren't a lawyer for Trek? You deny that Trek refuses warranty claims when they are valid from my "anecdotal" as you put it, incidents of riders I personally know. Then you brush off links I put up as "different kind of failures than my 'anecdotal stories'". And of course, you will have a few people with good experiences who will disagree. To use this in the 2nd link as "proof that Trek's warranty service is 1st rate" is just silly. You find out what a company is really worth not when things go right, but when things go wrong and you see how they rectify the issue.

My point is that Trek has a history of trying to get out of valid warranty claims for defective OCLV frames. READ: That doesn't mean everybody will have this experience. And of course they should not cover claims when there is obvious abuse or misuse. But when Trek comes back and makes bogus claims that their customers were abusing or misusing their equipment, when there can't possibly be any real evidence of such, is not a company that stands behind its product. But you have made up your mind that Trek is in the right, so it's silly for me to continue.

Carry on.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

mik_git said:


> SO...what do you want? You said they didn't make US bikes anymore, but they do, you said they didn't make wheels in the US, but they do. Sure it's high end, but if they made all their frames in the US, then they would all be high end, Trek makes bikes across the spectrum and that means most are made in Asia. It pretty damn impressive they make anything in the US.
> 
> SO are you wanting them to make most of their stuff in the US, or do you just want to be right on a technicality (but still wrong)


I don't WANT anything. And I never said anything about wheels - yes technically wheels are components. OK, on that note, you are correct. When most people speak of components, they are talking about drivetrain and brakes - you know, those parts that are made my Shimano, SRAM, Campagnolo, etc.

You never did answer my other question. Are Bontrager parts actually made by Trek or are they rebadged?


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Lombard, anyone who has worked for a Trek dealer and has had dealings with them would refute your claims. I have seen them replace frames that were clearly broken in non-warranty circumstances. I have never once heard of them refusing to warranty a defective. Disappointment does not equal defect.

Claiming they have a history of trying to get out of valid warranty claims? If they didn't warranty it, then it's not valid. They offer a crash replacement program for non-warranty situations.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Are you sure you aren't a lawyer for Trek? You deny that Trek refuses warranty claims when they are valid from my "anecdotal" as you put it, incidents of riders I personally know. Then you brush off links I put up as "different kind of failures than my 'anecdotal stories'". And of course, you will have a few people with good experiences who will disagree. To use this in the 2nd link as "proof that Trek's warranty service is 1st rate" is just silly. You find out what a company is really worth not when things go right, but when things go wrong and you see how they rectify the issue.


I'm sure I'm not a lawyer for anyone. As for the rest, you still have yet to provide even one bit of credible support for your prior statements and claims. 

My interest is as an owner of a carbon frame Trek bike. If there's a general or broad problem with Trek's carbon frames I want to be the first to know about it. If there's a problem with Trek's resolution of _valid warranty claims_, I also want to know about that. From all sources I've seen neither is a problem. I'm certainly open to anything you can bring in support of your assertions to the contrary. But the reality is so far you've brought nothing credible. So bring facts, or go home.



> My point is that Trek has a history of trying to get out of valid warranty claims for defective OCLV frames.


The problem is the larger body of evidence, drawn for your cited references, indicates quite the opposite of what you assert. Again, all I ask is for you to bring some credible evidence to support that statements. I'm still waiting. So far you've brought nothing. 



> But when Trek comes back and makes bogus claims that their customers were abusing or misusing their equipment, when there can't possibly be any real evidence of such, is not a company that stands behind its product.


Same deal - bring something credible. You saying it happened is NOT credible.



> But you have made up your mind that Trek is in the right, so it's silly for me to continue.


Quite the opposite. I'm not defending Trek, and I have no interest in dong so. I'm a Trek owner who is a bit alarmed by your assertions and statements. I am all ears, and if there is a real issue then I really do want to know about it. But, I want real, credible facts, not internet smoke and mirrors. 

So far your attempts to support those statements have missed by a healthy measure. So I invite your to be serious and try again. But if this is just your opinion or belief, without the merit of actual facts to support your statements, then yes you are wasting your time.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Lombard said:


> I don't WANT anything. And I never said anything about wheels - yes technically wheels are components. OK, on that note, you are correct. When most people speak of components, they are talking about drivetrain and brakes - you know, those parts that are made my Shimano, SRAM, Campagnolo, etc.


er...


Lombard said:


> I think we can be pretty sure the origin of the components including wheelset doesn't factor in the USA label.





Lombard said:


> Re: USA made vs. not - Mostly Emonda and one Madone were the only ones listed as USA made according to their website. And who makes Bontrager wheels anyway? Does Trek actually make those or are they rebadged?


and it was pointed out that they do...again high end carbon ones...



Lombard said:


> You never did answer my other question. Are Bontrager parts actually made by Trek or are they rebadged?


Yes...and no. You'll just have to accept that companies contract out stuff, small companies will jsut take what is on offer and rebrand itr, larger companies Trek/Specialised etc will get the manufacturer to make what they want to their own specs that only they have - at the mid range to uper end, possibly bottom end could be just re branded generic (or specific), it's only sometimes that compaines will make their own stuff and it will be at the top end of the market.
So some of their wheels, I imagine all (but maybe not) will be made in house by Trek, more than likely all their alloy wheels will be contracted out.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Some added insight:

- On components vs wheels, it apparently will come as a surprise to some, but it is generally well known that major "component" OEM's also make wheels (e.g., Shimano, Campagnolo ). Wheels are components as much as drivetrain or brakes. Most retailers see it that way too.

- For imported bikes sold in the US the origins of various component parts (that includes wheels) made in different countries are separately indicated on the various components. Go look closely at the various Shimano parts on an assembled made-in-Taiwan bike. Some of the labels are a bit hard to find, but they are there. Go look on new Bontrager alloy wheels - they will generally say "Assembeld in Taiwan" (I believe the alloy extrusions are done in China). 

- Made in the USA on a Trek OCLV 700 frame, or Made in Taiwan on other frames, is about the frame. The components are marked separately.

It's pretty simple - just use your eyes, and read the labels. It's all there.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Quite the opposite. I'm not defending Trek, and I have no interest in dong so. I'm a Trek owner who is a bit alarmed by your assertions and statements. I am all ears, and if there is a real issue then I really do want to know about it. But, I want real, credible facts, not internet smoke and mirrors.
> 
> So far your attempts to support those statements have missed by a healthy measure. So I invite your to be serious and try again. But if this is just your opinion or belief, without the merit of actual facts to support your statements, then yes you are wasting your time.


And what do you consider credible? Well sorry, but I guess it's not widespread enough to make an article in a major newspaper. Nor do I have any engineering technospeak to feed you.

Of course these forums have to be taken with a grain of salt. So I guess I am unable to say "beyond a reasonable doubt". But I will say that I belong to a bike club of more than 1500 people, ride with and talk to a lot of riders and know owners and mechanics of a couple of reputable bike shops who sell Trek. I would say the most dominant brands in my area are Trek, Cannondale and Specialized, not necessarily in that particular order with Giant not far behind. So I would immediately dismiss that number of failures is due to one brand being dominant.

You own a Trek and haven't had any problems with it and are happy with it. Many people own brands that are statistically troublesome and haven't had problems with them. I certainly don't wish you any bad luck with your Trek. Just the opposite. I have reason to believe they are great bikes when they don't fail.

Internet smoke and mirrors? This is the internet.

So anyway, it's a beautiful day. Let's get off the internet and go ride!


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

T K said:


> I once saw Mike Sinyard shove an old woman out of his way, kick a puppy then take candy from a baby.
> I have since sold all my Evil S products and now ride a Cannondale. Everybody loves Canadians.


^^^^ This made my morning so far... LOL!


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I really didn't like the Cafe Roubaix thing. It was just a bad move on multiple levels. That being said, they make great bikes. The Tarmac is a classic and one of the gold standards performance wise for me. I absolutely love their saddles and can't see choosing anything else after trying a few others. I don't love 'em as a company, but I also don't hate them entirely. I always look for the best value at the end of the day and that typically leads me toward Giant, Fuji, Cannondale, and Felt anyway.


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## MXL (Jun 26, 2012)

I don't care for Specialized the same as I don't care for Trek, Cannondale, etc. for no other reason than I don't like ubiquity and bikes made in Asia, including my beloved Colnago. When it comes to road bikes I like mine made in Italy, other European countries, or custom frames from the USA. Also have to have components made in Italy. Not an Asian basher, I spend a lot if time there - heading to Vietnam next week for 2 months. It's just what I like. Don't know why others don't like Specialized.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

whoops...
Stans NoTubes Defends Patent Against Specialized - MBR


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

And this...
Specialized cuts three percent of global workforce - VeloNews.com


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

mik_git said:


> whoops...
> Stans NoTubes Defends Patent Against Specialized - MBR


Good find.

In the above link, there's an mp3 audio recording of the hearing for those interested

http://oralarguments.cafc.uscourts.gov/default.aspx?fl=2015-1412.mp3


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Good find.
> 
> In the above link, there's an mp3 audio recording of the hearing for those interested
> 
> http://oralarguments.cafc.uscourts.gov/default.aspx?fl=2015-1412.mp3


I can summarize it for you:

Specialized offered to buy Stan's and their patents.

Stan said no.

Specialized stole Stan's patented designs and used them to make Roval wheels.

Stan sued Specialized.

Stan won.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> I can summarize it for you:
> 
> Specialized offered to buy Stan's and their patents.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I fell asleep 5 minutes in. I could not believe how horrible the articulation from the lawyers was. Made me doze off.


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## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

Hate to revive a dead horse...but what is a Specialized?


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

https://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m14dlqshe91qh1i7ho1_400.gif
Take that Evil S!


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> Specialized offered to buy Stan's and their patents.
> 
> Stan said no.
> 
> Specialized stole Stan's patented designs and used them to make Roval wheels.


Yep, that sounds like Specialized. 
It's why I won't do any business with that outfit.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bottecchia_eja said:


> Hate to revive a dead horse...but what is a Specialized?




Specialized is a law firm. Sometimes they make bikes too.


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## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Specialized is a law firm. Sometimes they make bikes too.


C'est drole...tres drole!


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

bottecchia_eja said:


> Hate to revive a dead horse...but what is a Specialized?


49% Merida, 51% Mike Sinyard. And 100% legal department.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

mpre53 said:


> 49% Merida, 51% Mike Sinyard. And 100% legal department.


I'd rather have Merida's bikes here in the US.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

So why did Specialized intentionally and purposely stole Stan's patent outright? when they knew they were stealing it from the get go??

So here's my answer (to myself). In many patent cases, it appears to take years, usually well past 5 years, to settle. In the case of Specialized vs Stans, it took 8 years to settle. So in the time that it takes to settle, the thief (Specialized in this case) can make a profit with the stolen design. Specialized figured even if they were forced to litigate and lost, they would still be profitable from using the stolen design after factoring in the penalty (8 years from now). However, keep in mind that not every one will be like Stans who in this case has the money to lawyer up to sue. Had Stans not been able to afford to lawyer up to sue, then Specialized would be pretty much committing open piracy. And since Specialized is big with big money, small guys are not likely to want to sue them (even if he small guys feel they're right) due to legal cost alone.

You see this sort of theft in the tech industry a lot. A large company will purposely steal the patent of a smaller or emerging company. Usually, the penalty for the thief won't break their company as they still stand to gain a NET profit from stealing. One could debate the patent system even encourages big companies with deep pockets to steal ideas from smaller companies, even if the big know they're eventually will need to pay the penalty. By then, the big company already have made a huge profit or have already delivered a product that enables them to dominate the market. Think of patent infringement as "potentially free R&D" for big companies, if the small company doesn't sue, then R&D is free for the big, and if small company sues AND win, then big company is then pretty much paying back money that they would have to spend in R&D (not to mention the big would waste time on R&D too).

That's why it sometimes can be risky if you have an idea and you want to approach a big company with it. They can just say "no" to your idea, then turn around and steal from you outright. I personally know a PhD chemist who mutually approached a very big biopharm with an idea on a drug. It wasn't just a fluffy idea, he had been working on it with data to prove its viability for years. But after some months of back and forth meeting, the biopharm ditched him, saying his idea wan't a viable one. Then, they turned around to stole his idea, or at the minimum stole key components of his ideas. Since it was just an idea, but an important proprietary one (though not patented), the chemist was pretty much helpless to do anything. Even if he had a patent, he ain't gonna have the money to lawyer up anyway. To this day, he is still bitter about the encounter, and is much more guarded when dealing with big companies. I see a lot of this happening in the biopharm industry. Bottomline, if you have an idea, don't share it. Get it patent, and make sure you can afford lawyers first, then proceed to share it with big companies (because they can turn around and become thieves!)


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> So why did Specialized intentionally and purposely stole Stan's patent outright? when they knew they were stealing it from the get go??
> 
> So here's my answer (to myself).


Good call.

So if we know for sure by this proof here that Specialized did this to Stan, who else have they stolen from?

Who are the stealing from right now?

It's a disgrace to have a company like this in cycling, well anywhere really.

I have all kinds of names to call the people at Specialized, I have a lot of character assassination to dole out to them, but I guess today I don't feel like being sued...

I wish nothing but bad things to happen to them and their company.

And I wish that Stan gets a settlement that's 100x more than expected, I wish for it to ruin the big disgusting S. Ahhh, to wish.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

There is also the issue that since large companies have deeper pockets, they can try and draw lawsuits out in order to bankrupt smaller companies with legal fees.

Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Hed Cycling licenses aero rim designs to Specialized, opens doors to others - Bikerumor

With Steve gone it looks like HED is caving in to the money monsters. Shame.


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