# E-HUB wheelset



## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Helo everybody

I am from Slovenia. Two mounth ago I bought E-HUB 50mm carbon wheelset.So far I have done 500km. 
E-HUB is new inovation - to overcome backlashes of paddeling. At first I was confused, the weight is little higher (1730g/wheelset) but at the end I found:

-pedaling is smoothier
-have more power in my knees (dead angle, rotation
-noticeable differences especially while climbing, while pedal rotation is considerably more constant while standing
-i can conclude that it is obvious that the E-hub wheel (rim) gives me more power 

I would reccomend E-HUB to everybody who havent try it yet!


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

and I can conclude that it is also obvious that either this is spam, or you have no idea what you're talking about...


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

...or bay be you didnt heare for this thing. It is not a spam.I am a real person!!!


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

I hadn't heard of it, so I just googled it. I found one page, which is full of things that don't make sense. That a hub will enable a cyclist to push with more power is totally absurd. A given cyclist can only produce so much power. To add more power to a bike/rider system, you would need another energy/power source, such as an electric battery and motor. From what I can see, the hub has no motor included, so where does the extra power come from?

As for 'pedal backlash', what is that? AFAIK, the pedals don't suddenly turn in the opposite direction against my pedalling action at any point.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but physics are physics...


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## SteveAustin (Dec 29, 2006)

So what is E-hub?

Have you got any pics?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

foz said:


> As for 'pedal backlash', what is that? AFAIK, the pedals don't suddenly turn in the opposite direction against my pedalling action at any point.


Yep...


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## de.abeja (Aug 27, 2006)

Direct quote from the "How it works" section of the website: "The benefit of the e-Hub system should be visible *(if there is any) *as lower heart rates during the experiments and/or lower levels of lactic acid after the experiments." http://www.ehub.si/eng/default.asp?stran=teorija


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## wmayes (Aug 8, 2007)

2 Letter description of this theory....BS


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

E-hub is hub without engine or electric help. Inside it has a spring mechanism witch helps you to overcame dead points ( you have two-upper and lower). In this points your force is particularly 0. With E-hub you have constant pressure on rear gears and because of this-pedaling is smoother, you do not lose your energy in dead points,.....the rest is on ehub.si

You have 6 different models of E-hub (1....6) - difference is on spring mechanism
I found that E-hub wheel sets model 3 is perfect for me. I can also see a difference on my power meter (Ergomo). E-hub/classic hub = app. 60 watt + 

Physic is physic but you never know when is going to surprise you


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## unit (Jun 11, 2008)

I bet this thing will work great with my bio pace rings on my rotor cranks with power pedals.

Whatever makes you happy on a bike...

Seriously. No really seriously, lets take a walk through the concept. If I read this right you are loading a spring on the down stroke as you mash the pedals (Am I correct so far?). Then when your crank hits TDC and you can not produce much power due to your pedaling style, the spring unloads and pushes the wheel forward?

How does this unloading of the spring not simply push the crank backward (since you are at TDC and can not produce much power relative to what you stored in the spring)? Some sort of double ratchet system in the hub? I guess without such a system there *would* be a pronounced "backlash".

Assuming that this works in the manner I am speculating...how can that possibly result in MORE power measured at the crank (or BB)?

If I am understanding correctly you are loading a spring on the down stroke (mash) and therefore diverting some energy away from propelling yourself forward. Some of this energy is converted to heat and not returned as the spring unloads. = Fail


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

wildriver said:


> With E-hub you have constant pressure on rear gears and because of this-pedaling is smoother, you do not lose your energy in dead points,


You will only lose "energy" (a very little bit) if you ratchet the freehub during a revolution. I don't and I doubt many cyclists do.

The E-Hub may work... but only if there is a physiological benefit to storing energy in a spring during the power phase of the stroke. It will feel (and function?) the same as having a flexy bike when climbing. Most cyclist don't like flexy bikes, and feel they are slower on them. 

For a fixed power input, the output will be *lower* with the EHub because there are losses in it... this is basic physics. So the only way it can result in an improvement is because it somehow increases the ability of your legs to produce power.



> You have 6 different models of E-hub (1....6) - difference is on spring mechanism
> I found that E-hub wheel sets model 3 is perfect for me. I can also see a difference on my power meter (Ergomo). E-hub/classic hub = app. 60 watt +


TdF here I come!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

One other thing... the torque on a hub varies inversely proportional to the gear ratio. There is no possible way you could set this up to give good results when climbing and on the flat. IOW, when climbing your gear ratio will be 2-3 times as small and combining that with a slower cadence makes it even worse. The ideal climbing spring would be ~3-4 times stiffer than the ideal spring for riding on the flat. 

If the concept actually works, the best place for it would be in the crank.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

rruff said:


> One other thing... the torque on a hub varies inversely proportional to the gear ratio. There is no possible way you could set this up to give good results when climbing and on the flat. IOW, when climbing your gear ratio will be 2-3 times as small and combining that with a slower cadence makes it even worse. The ideal climbing spring would be ~3-4 times stiffer than the ideal spring for riding on the flat.
> 
> If the concept actually works, the best place for it would be in the crank.


It must be winter, you're thinking too much about this "innovation";-)

-Eric


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

Missed winter. Must be April 1


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## wmayes (Aug 8, 2007)

If this works so well, why doesn't Lance endorse it? I know why......cause it's some nutjob's B**LSH*T


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Excuse my skepticism*



wildriver said:


> Physic is physic but you never know when is going to surprise you.


Actually, if you understand physics, you seldom get surprised. Further, you seldom fall for gimmicks like this one. People have been trying stuff like this in bicycles for over 100 years. Each and every one is a "true miracle," and yet somehow, each an every one ends up in the dust bin of history. 

A few months back we were treated to spring loaded weights on the spokes, with similar outlandish claims. Five minutes with a calculator showed that concept to be completely bogus. This one is similarly flawed. The only way you can get more power by using something like this is to get more power out of a human. Despite many claims to the contrary, no one has been able to demonstrate that yet.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> The only way you can get more power by using something like this is to get more power out of a human. Despite many claims to the contrary, no one has been able to demonstrate that yet.


Waddaya mean? They have their own test results, and plenty of testimonials... 

Unlike the sliding-weights wheels, I think this one has a chance of actually providing a benefit. It all depends on whether or not it is physiologically beneficial to load a spring during the power phase of the stroke... by a great enough amount to offset the higher losses. I think it would work by reducing the peak force in the power stroke and extending the duration. I can imagine the possibility that this would be a more "efficient"... allowing your legs to produce more power... maybe. I'll wait for some independant tests, though.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

wildriver said:


> I can also see a difference on my power meter (Ergomo). E-hub/classic hub = app. 60 watt +


Now I get it! :idea: it's not E-hub, it's EPO-hub


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Excellent. I see I have a lot of you guys to talk with. Some of you know physics, some of you know Cycling world. E-hub works like it suppose to! So, another thing: when you buy E-hub you get UCI certificate, so you can go on the race too. Talking about races you can probably recognize the outfit of this biker and his club colours (check out the URL at the bottom). The red thing in the centre of his rear wheel is E-HUB Believe me there is also another big shots in cycling world riding E-hub, but at the moment I can’t talk about this. Pay attention to the next season.
https://www.ehub.si/temp/ehub_astana.jpg


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

I just still can't see how it works. I can see how it might be able to smooth out the power supplied from the rider to the rear wheel, but that's about it. There's absolutely no way it can give a cyclist more power. Use the power he has in a different way - possibly. But that isn't going to make him faster. For a given power output, the only way to make a rider/bike system faster is to reduce friction (and weight if climbing is involved).

As for a badly pixelated photo of what appears to be a pro rider, well there are many red hubs on the market and that photo is just nowhere near clear enough to be certain which hub it is. And there is always photoshop...

Some of the quotes on the webpage are also great:

"When I first tried the E-hub I immediately noticed the difference in power. When cycling uphill, the E-hub reduces the sense of resistance and consequently muscle strain is reduced"

"I noticed the biggest difference when cycling uphill where the suspension mechanism, with its rigidity, helps to gain higher speed without extra force"

"The sense of resistance is much lower"

"Why not use the extra 8-10% of energy saved for a longer cycling tour"

and the best one of all - "I believe that E-hub’s biggest added value is minor knee pain after long and demanding tours"


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## Ligero (Oct 21, 2005)

wildriver said:


> E-hub works like it suppose to!


Well since you say it works then it must work. 

If you are loading a spring on the down stroke and it is releasing that energy on the "dead spot" then it is not adding power at all. It is taking power from you on the down stroke and then giving it back on the dead spot but it still same amount of total energy output.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

wildriver said:


> ...but at the moment I can’t talk about this...


You could if you weren't spamming.

The test results on the website are convincing - the E-hub requires more power to travel the same speed. How that translates into higher performance is the stuff of placebo effect and wishful thinking. 

Why not save money and just radially lace the rear wheel? ''Twould accomplish the same thing, with no weight penalty. Of course the wheel might not last as long...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Ligero said:


> If you are loading a spring on the down stroke and it is releasing that energy on the "dead spot" then it is not adding power at all. It is taking power from you on the down stroke and then giving it back on the dead spot but it still same amount of total energy output.


That is certainly true. If this thing provides any real benefit at all it must be physiological... ie the modification of the force/motion relationship allows you to produce more power before fatigue sets in. A 5% improvement (10-20W) would be pretty huge IMO... claims of 60W peg my "BS meter". If it is UCI legal and provides *any* measurable benefit, then there will be a lot of pro riders using it (unsponsored) in 2009... I'll wait and see.

Or... if they'd like to send me one I'd be happy to test it... and I pledge to tell all the bike forums in existence about my findings.


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## jparman (Apr 18, 2006)

wildriver said:


> I would reccomend E-HUB to everybody who havent try it yet!



Awesome!


"That's custom-fitted foam insulation you'll be ridin' in, Bullseye."


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## jparman (Apr 18, 2006)

deleted - duplicate.
Just trying to increase my poast count.


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Great! Just wanted to ask if anybody knows about E-hub, and if not,try to reccomend it to some serious cyclist! IF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW THE THING WORKS, BETTER TRY IT FIRST, INSTEAD TO SPIT ON IT!!! :thumbsup:


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

If you send me one then I'll gladly try it for you and post my results. Maybe it does something, like make my bike heavier, but there is absolutely no way on earth that it can give me more power. If simply loading and unloading a spring is able to create energy, then I think you probably just found a solution to the world's energy problems, and should be put forward for a nobel prize!


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## ROGER79 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Hey Mr. Driver?????*

5 whole posts on RBR, Hmmmmm something smells "fishy" or ....... Nice try, take your hub and move along to another site.
Thank you and good day..... I said Good Day, Sir.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

wildriver said:


> Great! Just wanted to ask if anybody knows about E-hub, and if not,try to reccomend it to some serious cyclist! IF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW THE THING WORKS, BETTER TRY IT FIRST, INSTEAD TO SPIT ON IT!!! :thumbsup:


Why should we blindly test something if we can't grasp the theoretical benefit it is reporting to provide us? Especially since I doubt you are giving away free demo hubs or lending out wheelsets. Blind faith isn't much of a sales/marketing approach. Even the marketing literature on the site makes no concrete conclusions. If you are making bold statements, you better have solid data to back it up and a solid research method to validate the data.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

Seriously, what the hell is pedal backlash???
How can inserting a thick coil inside of a hub change the ride?


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Backlash - dead center of peddaling (upper-UDC and lower-LDC) 
I think that more power you have because you don`t lose so many force in dead centers in one circle. 
When I measure my input power (SRM power meter) i have 365Watt with E-hub and 337Watt with classic hub. The diference is 28Watt which is app. 7,7%.
I know that system E-hub it is not a perpetum mobile-i have lower a loss of energy
(sorry for E-hub guys, no Nobel price for them).


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

If this hub is able to provide power to the wheel while the cranks are vertical, then it's taken that power away when they're horizontal, so the total power input to the system is still the same - it hasn't provided anymore power.

If you used an SRM, then there's no way the difference in power reading can be put down to the hub, as the power is measured at the cranks. It doesn't matter what the cranks are connected to, so long as there is some resistance that requires you to do work. This could be an e-hub, normal hub, crane winch, electric generator... doesn't matter. If you wanted to measure the power difference that you say the e-hub can provide, then you need to measure both the power input and power output of you system. You've already measured the input with the SRM, but you'd need a way of measuring the power output at the rear wheel, so probably some kind of roller with a power meter attached. Take into account the minimal losses for chain and sprocket friction, and you should get the same number of watts (air resistance is nil if you test on a static testbed).


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Look

When the crank is in vertical position the press force of your leg is particularly zero. When the crank is in position one o’clock, the force on pedal start to increase till horizontal position. And then, from horizontal position to vertical ( 6 o’clock) the force on the crank start to decrease. 
E-hub divides this force evenly around the pedal turn. Seems logically to me!

Here is link (http://www.pureendurance.net/what_are_rotor_cranks_ )of other product who also eliminate dead point/spot/backlash...

I tried this system but my pedalling rhythm was disturbed. 

Guys at E-hub, moved the solution to the rear wheel/hub!


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

It might or might not do that, just as PMP cranks, biopace rings, rotor rings, and probably more ideas that I can't remember right now have also claimed to do. There is a big difference though between redistributing the power, and providing more power.


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

*to mr.ROGER 79*

I can bet, you do less than 2000miles per year. I can see you spend too much time searcing the net. Offcourse, I can`t do more writing than that, because I do miles and miles, no time to hang on the net like you! Good luck with your cycling. mister!


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## ROGER79 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Wrong again Sweetness,*

You're doing very well, you've got a whopping EIGHT posts now.
and no I don't check the net constantly and as far as my annual mileage, well anytime you'd like to Try and Hang" with me, COME ON ALONG.
I'm just saying that we have a few "Posters" come onto the site to "Push" new "Trinkets" every once in a while.
So if you're not one of those, Great.
I'd love to talk more, but I need to leave so I get to (Ride) work on time.
I'll probably get about 350mi. this week.
Later...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I want my click back. Can I get a refund from the forum managers?


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## ROGER79 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Exactly! ! ! !*

Nothing else need be said... now move on, there's nothing to be seen here.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

wildriver said:


> Backlash - dead center of peddaling (upper-UDC and lower-LDC)
> I think that more power you have because you don`t lose so many force in dead centers in one circle.
> When I measure my input power (SRM power meter) i have 365Watt with E-hub and 337Watt with classic hub. The diference is 28Watt which is app. 7,7%.
> I know that system E-hub it is not a perpetum mobile-i have lower a loss of energy
> (sorry for E-hub guys, no Nobel price for them).


Right. And using more power is a BAD thing. Tell us you go faster at the same wattage - which is contraindicated by the website information - and you'll be making an argument to support your assertion. You'll also be lying.

I'll let the 'backlash' thing go as a problem of language. But there's a problem in the very notion of what you suggest. If the spring is alleged to be 'supplying power' at TDC/BDC, it has to be pushing against...Wait for it... Leg Force. The spring can't put any more torque to the road in that moment than the legs are already supplying, or the legs would be shoved backwards instead. If anything, this silliness would CREATE backlash, not eliminate it. 

Step back, try again, and re-position this junk as a 'training device' that helps teach users to pedal more roundly; that is, learning to apply even pressure all around the pedal stroke, similar to Power Cranks. That'll be BS too, but it'll catch a few more gullible folk.


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## unit (Jun 11, 2008)

danl1 said:


> Right. And using more power is a BAD thing. Tell us you go faster at the same wattage - which is contraindicated by the website information - and you'll be making an argument to support your assertion. You'll also be lying.
> 
> I'll let the 'backlash' thing go as a problem of language. But there's a problem in the very notion of what you suggest. If the spring is alleged to be 'supplying power' at TDC/BDC, it has to be pushing against...Wait for it... Leg Force. The spring can't put any more torque to the road in that moment than the legs are already supplying, or the legs would be shoved backwards instead. If anything, this silliness would CREATE backlash, not eliminate it.
> 
> Step back, try again, and re-position this junk as a 'training device' that helps teach users to pedal more roundly; that is, learning to apply even pressure all around the pedal stroke, similar to Power Cranks. That'll be BS too, but it'll catch a few more gullible folk.


No offense, but this is basically what I said 5 days ago.

We are kicking a dead horse that for whatever reason keeps fighting back. Why don't we all agree to stop trying to educate idiots and move on. Seriously, even as I type this I realize that this whole thread (including my present efforts) are a big waste of time.


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Hello again!

I see that this discussion isn’t constructive as i thought. 
I tried and bought E-hub wheel set and for me is product E-hub fantastic. I am not engineer of physics and my English is not 100% fluently to explain how the E-hub work......

If everything in this hub doesn’t work I don’t believe that professionals in Astana will use it? 

Wright now they are with E-hub on Tenerife......https://www.ehub.si/temp/astana.jpg


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## wildriver (Nov 28, 2008)

Look at!! The first rider at the rear wheel...in the centre is E-hub - RED hub!!!!!


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## ROGER79 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Now you're at 10.....*

A WHOPPING 10 posts and STILL pushing this junk...
Move on and live in the now.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm still waiting for my click back.


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## halien (Dec 8, 2009)

wildriver said:


> Look
> 
> When the crank is in vertical position the press force of your leg is particularly zero. When the crank is in position one o’clock, the force on pedal start to increase till horizontal position. And then, from horizontal position to vertical ( 6 o’clock) the force on the crank start to decrease.
> E-hub divides this force evenly around the pedal turn. Seems logically to me!


What's wrong with single leg pedalling drills in order to improve pedalling style and smoothness of pedal stroke? With two legs operating the cranks, the dead spot is elimianted as the lower leg is compensating.
Energy input cannot equal less than energy output in a closed mechanical system assuming the laws of physics as they stand are correct.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Am I the only one who imagined this whole thread in a yakov smirnoff voice?

The link to the Astana picture was wonderful.


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