# Le Champion Ti -- Concern over integrated headset



## marcalans (Aug 13, 2011)

I like most of what I have read about the Moto Ti bikes, such as Le Champion, but what’s keeping me from buying one is the integrated headset of which I am not a fan. The bearings rub directly against the frame and, even if frequently greased, will slowly eat away at the head tube or eventually cause pitting. Perhaps the concern is not as critical with TI frames as it is with softer aluminum, but TI is not impervious to damage and is costly to repair. If I buy a TI bike I would really like it to be a "forever" bike.

I notice that higher-quality TI frame manufacturers, such as Lynskey and Seven, for the most part, do not design their frames for use with integrated headsets. I was wondering if any of the Le Champion TI steering problems I have read about (e.g., reported vibrations, wobbling, and twitchiness) may be related to the integrated headset design, not only because of possible damage, but also because integrated bearings are not as precisely seated against the head tube surface as standard, cupped bearings are against the cup.


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## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

I looked at all the Ti Champion models and they all have this headset:
_FSA IS2 Sealed Bearing Threadless 1.125 inch_
I know nothing about headsets and I don't see where it says it's integrated. It's too late now as my bike is on its way. I guess I'll just hope for the best.

My 2002 Jamis Eclipse has this headset:
_1 1/8" threadless Cane Creek S-2_
Again, I have no idea if this is an integrated one but I've had no problems with it.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

*Le Champion Ti stability and notes on fit*

macalans - Do you have an index or compilation of all the reports of "Le Champion TI steering problems"? It would be interesting to look at them all at once and read them in context. I can't definitively say that there is no problem, but I think your concerns may be overblown. I don't think I've read anything to convince me that there is a generic or widespread issue.

I just got a Le Champion Ti SL recently and have only had a chance to go for a couple rides so far, totaling about 41 miles. Based at least in part on your posts here, I specifically was on the lookout for stability issues, particularly at higher speeds.

In short, I didn't notice anything. Admittedly, I don't have any long mountain descents to test ride - there are only some short stretches around here that I can reach speeds around 40 mph on briefly (highest I got up to was ~43 mph). I reach my highest speed when in my full tuck - hands on the bars close to the stem, upper chest on those hands, elbows and knees in tight. With hands so close to the stem, there is less leverage for steering compared to when in the drops. I detected no "vibrations," "wobbling," or "twitchiness." The only time I felt less than fully confident was when I was sprinting on a downhill with my hands in the drops, out of the saddle. But when I repeated that exercise, I felt more sure the second time, so I think it has to do with technique & practice, not the bike.

I also rode the bike extensively with hands off the bars (though not at 40 mph; mostly probably around 13-16 mph, though I did briefly go hands-off in excess of 30 mph), and found it to be stable. I even coasted hand-off while standing on my pedals. No problems.

As to fit, I am just over 5'7", pants inseam of 30", bicycle inseam somewhere between 31-32". I went with the 51cm, and it fits well. With the stem down (level with the ground) and max spacers below the stem, the bars are about 2 & 1/4" below my saddle. I will probably get a 6 degree stem (compared with the 17 degree that the bike came with) to raise the bars a bit while still keeping the stem flipped down, for aesthetics (I'm so vain). Of course, some of the Le Champ Ti models come with a 6 degree stem - I think it is only the SL and up that come with the more aggressive 17 degree stem. Another thing people trying to figure out fit should do is email BD and ask them how long the stem is on the frame they are considering. The 51cm comes with a 100mm stem.

Thank you for bringing the issue of integrated headsets to my attention. I looked at the Chris King argument against them, and it certainly seems like it is a cost-saving design with potential downsides. Hopefully it is not something that any of us will have a problem with.


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## equinoxx (May 23, 2010)

paulfeng said:


> Of course, some of the Le Champ Ti models come with a 6 degree stem - I think it is only the SL and up that come with the more aggressive 17 degree stem. Another thing people trying to figure out fit should do is email BD and ask them how long the stem is on the frame they are considering. The 51cm comes with a 100mm stem.


Mine came with a 100mm 6deg stem. Let me know if you're interested in trading stems


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## marcalans (Aug 13, 2011)

I wasn’t referring to the threadless property of newer headsets (Aheadset) developed by Cane Creek – nothing wrong with that. I was referring particularly to the integrated headset (a specific type of threadless headset), which places the bearings directly in contact with the frame (a small interior lip protrusion on both sides of the head tube). A head tube has to be specially designed to accommodate an integrated headset and such a head tube will not work with a standard, cup-design headset.

Integrateds have become more popular than conventional headsets because they are composed of fewer parts, are generally less expensive, are much easier to install, and have a more seamless, sleeker appearance since there are no cup ends that extend out beyond both sides of the head tube. Bike manufacturers like them because they help expedite assembly and save on labor cost. 

By contrast, both conventional and internal (semi-integrated) headsets place the bearing cartridge inside of a cup, which is inserted into the head tube so that the bearings never come into direct contact with frame and, therefore, do not have the opportunity to bounce against or grind away at the frame’s inner surface as do integrated headset bearings. 
The LC Ti bikes are fitted with the FSA Orbit IS2, which, unfortunately, is an integrated headset (http://www.fullspeedahead.com/storage/insidetech/items/EN_fd08fce7-6d2f-484f-88fe-f022afc18309_Orbit%20IS.pdf) – a poor head tube design choice for an otherwise nice bike. I don't know to what tolerance or how well the head tube ledge on which the headset bearings rest are machined on the LC Ti, but if the quality is good and you keep your headset properly tightened so things can't bounce around, I would assume that any potential problems would not occur for a very long, long time on a Ti bike.

As far as I know, all Jamis Eclipse bikes have always been equipped with conventional headsets, not integrated, which is consistent with their overall quality of construction. The Cane Creek S2 is not an integrated headset. On your Jamis, you should see the bottom end of your headset cup between the fork and the head tube (black is the most common color). On the LC Ti there is a seamless transition between fork and head tube with nothing showing between the two. You can watch a video of a conventional threadless Cane Creek headset installation here: Cane Creek Cycling Components :: Tech Center :: Headsets. Here’s a video of a threadless integrated headset installation for comparison: How to Install Integrated Headset - YouTube.


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## marcalans (Aug 13, 2011)

Paulfeng, thanks for your post. It is reassuring to know that the LC is stable for you at high speeds. I did not compile a record of those LC owners who have made comments regarding twitchy steering or jitters at high speeds. I was just speculating on whether or not some of the steering issues described might be related to the integrated headset design, given that a few BD bike owners also reported that, upon disassembly, some of the critical components were discovered not to have been properly greased (also corroborated by one of my LBS mechanics who has worked on MB mountain bikes). If integrated headset bearings are not properly lubricated, damage to the head tube can easily result, whereas with a conventional or internal (semi-integrated) headset only the inexpensive bearing cups would be damaged. Potentially, damage to the head tube could adversely affect steering performance and reliability.

I remember that at least one LC Ti owner attributed the steering jitters to a maladjusted wheel hub. I think you are correct that most of the other reports could be related to riding technique or to other variables (e.g., incorrectly torqued cap bolt). Assuming proper maintenance, I think it’s too early for the LC Ti bikes to be displaying any kind of head tube damage due to the integrated headset design since the LC Ti bikes have only been available for a few years, but I was wondering if any of those who have reported steering-related anomalies have bothered to check their headset bearings just in case. 

I have never owned a bike with an integrated headset, but I do know of acquaintances who had aluminum bikes with integrated headsets and who ended up replacing their frames after multiple bearing replacements and constant greasing would not resolve squeaking or sticky steering issues. Although the frames were still under warranty, the manufacturer considered the head tube damage to be the result of “normal wear and tear” and not a frame defect.


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## Gary in WI (Oct 14, 2009)

*Integrated Headsets - My Two Cents Worth*

I had similar concerns with the integrated headset before purchasing a LeChampion Ti about two years ago. Here are my thoughts:

1) Integrated headsets have around a long time now and there just isn't much evidence of premature wear and damage to the headtube. Most production road bikes have integrated headsets. The Chris King article is now about 10 years old and the dire consequences predicted just haven't materialized.
2) A lot of the bikes with integrated headsets are aluminum-framed and/or BMX bikes which would show issues earlier than a TI roadbike. Yet, problems haven't surfaced.
3) Remember, it's not like the the old days when headsets had loose balls rotating on the cup. With cartridge bearings, the outer race, in many ways, acts like the cup as it is seated in the angled surface of the the headtube. All the rotating motion occurs within the the cartridge bearing, not where the cartridge makes contact with the headtube.

I came to the the conclusion that all bike designs have compromises and this is not a particularly bad one. When the bike meets its ultimate demise (hopefully, many, many years from now), it likely will not be because of the integrated headset design. If it still concerns you, do what I did and buy a good torque wrench and check the headset preload a couple of times per year. 

The Motobecane Ti's are good bikes for the price. I now have 10,000 miles on my bike. I rode it 3,800 miles cross-country this summer where it performed flawlessly. The steering is precise and predictable (and I rode up & down the Rockies).

The owners of Moto Ti's, both mountain and road, are almost universally a satisfied lot. I found the naysayers seem to be largely non-owners.


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## marcalans (Aug 13, 2011)

Thank you for your post, Gary. I think that your position is reasonable, given that there has not been a hoard of head tube damage reports in all the years since integrateds were introduced. As cited earlier, however, I do know of a couple of people who did experience head tube damage on their aluminum frames with integrated headsets – both mountain bikes. Mountain bikes, of course, get rattled a lot more than road bikes and there is a greater chance for bolts to loosen. I remember when buying my first mountain bike how the owner of my LBS shook his head in disgust as he viewed over all the bikes on his floor with integrated headsets and remarked that “these are all crap.” He was the first to steer me away of the integrated design.

I do own a torque wrench and I agree that if I just make sure the headset preload is properly tightened and keep an eye on things, I will minimize or eliminate the chance of problems. If I do decide to purchase an LC Ti, it will be my first bike with an integrated headset so hearing from you and others who have purchased the bike greatly helps with my decision. Actually, in my opinion, the fitting issue is more of a concern than the headset one.


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## tnbiker (Mar 3, 2003)

Gary in WI said:


> I had similar concerns with the integrated headset before purchasing a LeChampion Ti about two years ago. Here are my thoughts:
> 
> 1) Integrated headsets have around a long time now and there just isn't much evidence of premature wear and damage to the headtube. Most production road bikes have integrated headsets. The Chris King article is now about 10 years old and the dire consequences predicted just haven't materialized..



Chris King (probably the most well respected headset manufacturer) did write a very essay 10 years ago citing many reasons why the integrated design _might _not be as durable but I haven't heard of too many headset or frame failures. Integrated headsets are so very common these days and even Chris King produces headsets for these designs. It is somewhat uncommon to see an an aluminum or CF roadbike for sale with "standard" headsets.

If you are concerned about the headset damaging your fram
e purchase a chris king, Hope, phil wood or any other high end headset/bearings.
My concern with this titanium frame is that it might be difficult to find a replacement headset since there are multiple standards with multiple sizes. It would be really annoying to have such a durable frame and be limited by headset availability in the future.

Also, be glad it doesn't have a pressfit BB as those may issues.

Go out and enjoy your new bike, it rides very well.


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## LongIslandTom (Apr 20, 2011)

My previous bike was a 2006 Specialized Roubaix Expert Double. The integrated headset outlasted the bike, never had any issues with it. I put 8000 miles on that bike before I was forced to retire it due to a deep gouge in the carbon fiber frame from a crash.

I have no doubt the Moto LeChamp Ti Heat I bought in March 2011 won't give me any headset problems either. I've put 2000 miles on it since March, no problems with the headset whatsoever.

Haven't experienced any wierd vibrations or twitchiness from the front end. Don't know if the fact that I swapped on a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLs I salvaged from my Roubaix Expert have anything to do with that.


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## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

FWIW, I asked the mechanic who put my bike together about what he thought of the reported problems with integrated headsets. His opinion was that they aren't a problem and that he hadn't noticed bikes coming through with issues from having them.


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## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

LongIslandTom said:


> My previous bike was a 2006 Specialized Roubaix Expert Double. The integrated headset outlasted the bike, never had any issues with it. I put 8000 miles on that bike before I was forced to retire it due to a deep gouge in the carbon fiber frame from a crash.
> 
> I have no doubt the Moto LeChamp Ti Heat I bought in March 2011 won't give me any headset problems either. I've put 2000 miles on it since March, no problems with the headset whatsoever.
> 
> Haven't experienced any wierd vibrations or twitchiness from the front end. Don't know if the fact that I swapped on a set of Mavic Ksyrium SLs I salvaged from my Roubaix Expert have anything to do with that.


The Heat came with Aksiums correct? I have the SLs on my Jamis and am curious to see how the Ksyrium Elites that came with my Team Champion compare to them.

Beyond not having vibrations (not saying you had any with the Aksiums), how would you compare the difference to having the SLs?


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## LongIslandTom (Apr 20, 2011)

The Ksyrium Elites and Ksyrium SL have the same rim.. The chief difference is Elite has steel spokes and aluminum hub, while SL has aluminum bladed spokes (Zicral) and carbon-body hub on the front (slightly lighter). The bearings are actually the same according to Mavic.

I don't think you will notice much of a difference between the two, except the SL might possibly give you a somewhat harsher ride because of the aluminum spokes. The difference in weight between the two sets is only 65 grams.

The Aksiums came with my Ti Heat originally yea. There is almost a pound of difference in weight between the Aksiums and the Ksyrium SLs, and I do notice that spinning up a long hill it takes juuuust a bit less effort to maintain cadence on the SLs. The Aksiums also have steel spokes and gives a bit less harsh ride than the aluminum-spoked SLs.

I've had my SLs since 2006, back when I was of the "anything to get lighter" mindset. :blush2: Even though I got my money's worth out of the wheelset (10,000 miles), if I had to do it all over again I think I would have gotten the Elites instead. The Elites cost $500 less and had a less harsh ride (which is more important to me these days).


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

*Update on stability of Le Champion Ti*

[EDIT - PLEASE READ MY FOLLOWUP POST OF 6 NOV 2011 WHERE I CONCLUDE THERE IS NO STABILITY ISSUE IN GENERAL]

So I got out again for only my third ride and did find something:

Coasting hands-off at ~30mph on a smooth downhill, front wheel oscillation did appear. I'm guessing that the frequency of the oscillation was between 5 and 10 cycles per second, but I didn't measure it - I suppose you could do that with video. The amplitude was small and increased only very gradually; I felt safe enough to let it go for a while before grabbing the bars. Of course, at higher speeds the dynamics could be different (for better or worse).

For what it's worth, I am riding a 51cm, and my mass is about 83kg (me only). For the physicist / engineer types out there, I am guessing that there is a natural oscillation for the front wheel / fork / frame / rider? / etc. system, and that it was being driven fairly weakly at that speed (tied to the rotational rate of the wheel)?

Let me emphasize that with hands (or only one hand - probably even only part of a hand) on the bars, I had absolutely no notion of any stability issue at any speed (I've only tested up to the low 40s). So while I suppose I would not go hands-off while bombing down a mountain road to take off a jacket, peel a banana, etc., I see nothing that would prevent me from flying down, say, the Mt. Baldy Road, if only I were lucky enough to have such terrain nearby.

Now… have I tried such a test on any other bike? Not sure - I think I tend to keep my hands on the bars when at speed.


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## paulfeng (Jun 10, 2011)

*Retraction*



paulfeng said:


> Coasting hands-off at ~30mph on a smooth downhill, front wheel oscillation did appear.


Got out again yesterday, and was able to coast hand-off for at least two extended runs of ~32mph and ~36mph. NO oscillation / wobble / shimmy observed. Very comfortably steady.

The earlier run where I observed an oscillation was coating downhill on a concrete sidewalk of a bridge. I wonder if there is some periodic waviness to the sidewalk surface (an artifact of the manufacturing process?) that drove the oscillation I experienced.

My conclusion for now is that there is no stability issue in general (at least for my bike), and the one incident I experienced was specific to that particular road surface and situation.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

marcalans said:


> I like most of what I have read about the Moto Ti bikes, such as Le Champion, but what’s keeping me from buying one is the integrated headset of which I am not a fan. The bearings rub directly against the frame and, even if frequently greased, will slowly eat away at the head tube or eventually cause pitting. Perhaps the concern is not as critical with TI frames as it is with softer aluminum, but TI is not impervious to damage and is costly to repair. If I buy a TI bike I would really like it to be a "forever" bike.
> 
> I notice that higher-quality TI frame manufacturers, such as Lynskey and Seven, for the most part, do not design their frames for use with integrated headsets. I was wondering if any of the Le Champion TI steering problems I have read about (e.g., reported vibrations, wobbling, and twitchiness) may be related to the integrated headset design, not only because of possible damage, but also because integrated bearings are not as precisely seated against the head tube surface as standard, cupped bearings are against the cup.


 The better manufacturers that use integrated sets, use an insert race, top and bottom, inside the headtube so the cartridge bearings don't rub on the headtube but the race. Giant , Look are some that use that design. The headtube is milled with square edges, the race fits into it and the bearing ride on it; almost like a crown race...


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## marcalans (Aug 13, 2011)

robpar said:


> The better manufacturers that use integrated sets, use an insert race, top and bottom, inside the headtube so the cartridge bearings don't rub on the headtube but the race. Giant , Look are some that use that design. The headtube is milled with square edges, the race fits into it and the bearing ride on it; almost like a crown race...


Yes, thank you. I did research the use of an insert race by some manufacturers and, for the most part, it's a good solution. There have been some problems reported with their use, however. For example, race inserts made out of aluminum tend to ovalize with time due to the softness of the metal, which can result in creaking or a sticky headset. You just need to keep an eye (and ear) on things. 

I've also read about similar issues with some of the press fit bottom bracket designs. Some are used with a separate race insert while, in other designs, the bearings rotate against a lip (or race), which is part of the bracket shell itself so they are, in effect, always contacting the frame. One of my local LBS mechanics has told me that a lot of BB30s have been coming in with creaking issues.


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