# Making MAYOnnaise on cobblestones...



## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

<<..the Mayo/Hushvod group comes in 4 minutes down>>>


Well, I got roasted on these boards for criticizing Ullrich for his Lance is bluffing comments.. but now its time for some other people to eat some yummy crow - cus it turns out the cobbles had much more of an impact than any of us ( I don't think anyone said they would be this bad, please correct me if I am wrong) thought. And once gain Lance was right, that smart *******, he said someone's GC hopes would be over after today and he was right...

As far as T-Mobile, Phonak and postal driving the pace that is another interesting story line. I guess Mayo and Zubella should have let ullrich get the time bonus in last years tour when they came around him at the last minute.


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## JPRider14 (Feb 9, 2004)

Old_school_nik said:


> As far as T-Mobile, Phonak and postal driving the pace that is another interesting story line. I guess Mayo and Zubella should have let ullrich get the time bonus in last years tour when they came around him at the last minute.


Ha. Good memory.

In case people are talking about it already, I don't believe that Postal/Phonak/T-Mobile were attacking Mayo directly because he fell. Keep reading, please. I think USPS's strategy at the beginning of the day was to get on the front pre-cobbles, push the pace on them, and then keep the tempo up for the rest of the way. It just so happened that Mayo fell during the run-up to the cobbles, and Postal had already had their tactics underway. I think Phonak and T-Mobile were more mimicking USPS, and I don't think they had plans to push the pace at any point today. So just in case people wanted to say that those teams were attacking Mayo when he was down, they're right, but the reason for the attack was not because he was down. The reason was that it was a pre-empted plan, at least by USPS. That's my opinion.

Qs: Are Mayo's chances ruined? How much more time will he lose tomorrow?

As: 90%. 2:30.

Comment away!


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I totally agree. As I said in another post, the attack was already underway when Mayo went down. The race was to be first on the cobbles and Postal was determined to win that battle. There is no rule that says you have to stop an attack because the guy you are attacking fell off.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*In Theory*



JPRider14 said:


> Ha. Good memory.
> 
> In case people are talking about it already, I don't believe that Postal/Phonak/T-Mobile were attacking Mayo directly because he fell. Keep reading, please. I think USPS's strategy at the beginning of the day was to get on the front pre-cobbles, push the pace on them, and then keep the tempo up for the rest of the way. It just so happened that Mayo fell during the run-up to the cobbles, and Postal had already had their tactics underway. I think Phonak and T-Mobile were more mimicking USPS, and I don't think they had plans to push the pace at any point today. So just in case people wanted to say that those teams were attacking Mayo when he was down, they're right, but the reason for the attack was not because he was down. The reason was that it was a pre-empted plan, at least by USPS. That's my opinion.
> 
> ...


In theory, Mayo could still win the day and be a GC contenda......

BUT, we have to consider the following:

1)If Mayo trained on the surface of Mars and thus boosted his red blood cell count

AND

2)If Lance, Jan and Tyler decide hey, lets bag it and go home, I like this Mayo guy....

AND

3)If the TDF organizers allow the riders to use motor bikes

Mayo could win yellow. I mean, hey, its theory and it wont happen.


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## feathers mcgraw (Mar 15, 2002)

Mayo wasn' t the guy they were attacking. He was up front with Postal when he went down. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a Postal took him down. Bad luck for Mayo. All I know is that if the shoe was on the other foot Lance would be screaming bloody murder. (And don't say the shoe can't be on the other foot because Lance was better prepared. I'm pretty sure Mayo was right up front with him.)


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Mayo fell, thats it,sorry*



feathers mcgraw said:


> Mayo wasn' t the guy they were attacking. He was up front with Postal when he went down. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a Postal took him down. Bad luck for Mayo. All I know is that if the shoe was on the other foot Lance would be screaming bloody murder. (And don't say the shoe can't be on the other foot because Lance was better prepared. I'm pretty sure Mayo was right up front with him.)


He fell. Thats all there is to it. I have seen the video at least 6 times and the fact is, he fell.

Others fell too.

Postal drove the pace high and yup, some folks probably crashed out as a result. Looks like another race to me.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*More results just came in too.. Eusk E. will start last in the TTT*

I don't think they will finish last and lose 2 minutes, not that it matters because Mayo is now 4 minutes down to LA et al.. including prologue.

On the plus side, he can hammer like no tomorrow on the L Alpe TT - he is now my overhwhenling favorite for that day....

poor guy, he has a few more yars to win though....


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## jch2112 (Feb 5, 2004)

*I thought the last place team went first in the TTT*

If that's so then I believe that is why Postal, T Mobile and Phonak were pushing the envelope today.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

feathers mcgraw said:


> Mayo wasn' t the guy they were attacking. He was up front with Postal when he went down. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a Postal took him down. Bad luck for Mayo. All I know is that if the shoe was on the other foot Lance would be screaming bloody murder. (And don't say the shoe can't be on the other foot because Lance was better prepared. I'm pretty sure Mayo was right up front with him.)


The attack wasn't a standup and ride away kind of attack. It was crank up the speed and see who can hold on. Some did, some didn't. Some who didn't, like Heras, came back later. Good for them.

True, Lance would be pissed if the tables were turned, but there's no way Lance would lose 4 minutes like Mayo did. For one thing, USPS is without question a better team on the terrain they rode on today. Second, USPS is great at team time trialing. I'll guarantee that if Lance went down instead of Mayo, he would have caught back on before the end. Third, USPS wouldn't throw in the towel like Euskatel did and lose another 2 minutes.

Lance <u>was</u> better prepared. He had Ekimov (3rd at Paris-Roubaix) and Hincapie (4th at Paris-Roubaix) as his lieutenants leading up to and through the cobbles. That wasn't by accident. It was because USPS knew the course and set it up that way. There's preparation, and there's execution, and USPS did both superbly.


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## JPRider14 (Feb 9, 2004)

jch2112 said:


> If that's so then I believe that is why Postal, T Mobile and Phonak were pushing the envelope today.


You're right, Mayo's team will start first, I think Nik got it a little confused. Postal will be last, Phonak 4th to last, T-Mobile 6th to last. 

What are the time intervals between teams?


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## feathers mcgraw (Mar 15, 2002)

First of all, I half agree with you, just playing some devil's advocate. As for having stronger support riders, that's related to the size of the team's budget. I'm sure Euskatel would have some big engines on board if they were loaded. That doesn't make Postal smarter, just richer. What galls me is the way Armstrong complained about Ullrich not sitting up, but has no problem exploiting other's bad fortune, at the Passage du Gois and today.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Correction: finished last and will start first.. my bad....*

in my rush to relay this news I crossed wires in the brain.....


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## JPRider14 (Feb 9, 2004)

feathers mcgraw said:


> What galls me is the way Armstrong complained about Ullrich not sitting up, but has no problem exploiting other's bad fortune, at the Passage du Gois and today.


That's the point. He wasn't exploiting Mayo's bad luck - he was sticking with a pre-determined and pre-implemented plan. 

And you really must be playing devil's advocate, I don't know what stage it was, but Lance completely sat up when Ullrich flipped himself off the road on a descent in the Tour 2 (I think) years ago. And when Lance and Mayo went down last year, Ullrich (and others) flat out accelerated, which he wasn't doing prior to the crash.


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## theBreeze (Jan 7, 2002)

The main difference is that when Lance and Mayo went down last year, Lance was in yellow. Someone else has posted that it's the jersey you respect, not necessarily the rider. While perhaps Armstrong wished Mayo no ill will, he's also not going to bring out the violins if he can't hold his own on the road. re: Passage du Gois, that was a huge split due to a crash, and it's one of the many risks in this race, or any race for that matter. Otherwise the whole race would be just one big neutral zone with a bunch sprint at the end of every stage. ZZZZzzzzz.


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## nwilkes (Jun 21, 2004)

feathers mcgraw said:


> As for having stronger support riders, that's related to the size of the team's budget. I'm sure Euskatel would have some big engines on board if they were loaded.


Doesn't EE only recruit riders regionally (the Pyrenees) as per the sponsors' wishes. If so it doesn't matter how rich they will ever be -- they won't have as big a talent pool to draw from as everyone else. 
As for Mayo's terrible finish, I wonder how the desperation will effect his performance in the mountains? When LA or TH crash they ride like demons for a time afterwards. It would really fun to some panic and adrenaline driving IM for the rest of the race


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## Miggido (Sep 17, 2002)

*I agree with MOHAIR here...*

If Lance had gone down today, instead of Mayo, no one would have been expected to let him catch up. There was a huge portion of the race still left. They weren't near the finish, and they weren't on the side of a mountain. A team like US Postal would have pulled Lance back today, no doubt in my mind. Euskatel simply did not have the team to get Mayo back into the race. They threw up the white flag when they realized the gap wasn't coming down. I think this is going to set up some really ruthless and exciting attacks by Mayo in the mountains. He's gotta' take some risks now. Should be exciting!


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*That would be cool to see IM go like a testosteron driven dog with distemper...*



nwilkes said:


> Doesn't EE only recruit riders regionally (the Pyrenees) as per the sponsors' wishes. If so it doesn't matter how rich they will ever be -- they won't have as big a talent pool to draw from as everyone else.
> As for Mayo's terrible finish, I wonder how the desperation will effect his performance in the mountains? When LA or TH crash they ride like demons for a time afterwards. It would really fun to some panic and adrenaline driving IM for the rest of the race



But I am afraid that he will just go for stage wins now and not tray to get back 4:00 minutes... 

-Nik


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## KevinJH87 (May 19, 2004)

*no way to wait in peloton*

the difference between this and say lance waiting for ullrich, or saying ullrich did not wait for him is that it wasnt a few gc contenders fighting for the lead on a mountain stage. Mayo fell near the peloton and while you can wait and slow a few people down on a mountain stage you cannot slow the whole peloton down. Lance had no choice but to keep on going. I dont think the sprinters would be happy about it either. 
-kevin.


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## feathers mcgraw (Mar 15, 2002)

Good points, everyone. Like I said, playing a bit of the devil's advocate. The race will be a bit more boring in the mountains as a result. I just hate to see all that hard work and preparation lost due to a bit of bad luck, but I guess that's just racing.


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## PbOkole (Feb 10, 2004)

feathers mcgraw said:


> First of all, I half agree with you, just playing some devil's advocate. As for having stronger support riders, that's related to the size of the team's budget. I'm sure Euskatel would have some big engines on board if they were loaded. That doesn't make Postal smarter, just richer. What galls me is the way Armstrong complained about Ullrich not sitting up, but has no problem exploiting other's bad fortune, at the Passage du Gois and today.


Euskaltel has a $7.2 Million budget, Postal $9 Million. THis really isn't that huge of a difference. Just for reference, T-Mobile has $14.4 Million. IF you are going to talk about huge differences in budget, at least know the figures.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*Yes, preplanned*

Just yesterday there was an interview with USPS's team dirrector about plans and stratagies. He did not give any real answers, just grins and hints. First, was USPS was going to take advantages of any and all situations that might unfold. He also stated that USPS would be at the front of the pack when they hit the cobbles today to assure themselves that LA would be in the front pack if there were a split or crash. He also hinted that Lance would be in yellow long before the Alps. The reporters probed to see if he meant the Pyranese (sp?). He gave no real answer. 

The way things unfolded today, there is a good chance LA will be in yellow after the TTT, and this may of been the plan all along. Put the yellow on Lance early and make it clear the yellow is not up for grabs. 

It seems several teams were talking about winning the yellow before the race, thinking there was weakness in the LA / USPS camp. I think USPS is sending the message out loud and clear. Go ahead, position yourself for second place, but the yellow belongs to LA.

The USPS Team looks very well oiled and mighty this year. LA may not be in the same form as a couple of years back (then again he may be), but it is very clear the USPS machine is hitting on all eight cyclinders and is a mighty force that will be hard to stop.



JPRider14 said:


> Ha. Good memory.
> 
> In case people are talking about it already, I don't believe that Postal/Phonak/T-Mobile were attacking Mayo directly because he fell. Keep reading, please. I think USPS's strategy at the beginning of the day was to get on the front pre-cobbles, push the pace on them, and then keep the tempo up for the rest of the way. It just so happened that Mayo fell during the run-up to the cobbles, and Postal had already had their tactics underway. I think Phonak and T-Mobile were more mimicking USPS, and I don't think they had plans to push the pace at any point today. So just in case people wanted to say that those teams were attacking Mayo when he was down, they're right, but the reason for the attack was not because he was down. The reason was that it was a pre-empted plan, at least by USPS. That's my opinion.
> 
> ...


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## thatsmybush (Mar 12, 2002)

feathers mcgraw said:


> Mayo wasn' t the guy they were attacking. He was up front with Postal when he went down. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a Postal took him down. Bad luck for Mayo. All I know is that if the shoe was on the other foot Lance would be screaming bloody murder. (And don't say the shoe can't be on the other foot because Lance was better prepared. I'm pretty sure Mayo was right up front with him.)


Few problems with your theory. One it has happened to Lance in an earlier tour lost 30 seconds. Two there were people off the front. Three the concept of the team. If it had happened to Lance his boys would have been able to get him back up to the front. That is why the sport is said to be a "team" sport. Mayo does not have the strength of a strong team and he suffered today because of it.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

*Balance it out...*

I still think that continued attack after the cobble section was a bit cheap knowing that a contender fell. But, if they take the jersey tommorow and try to hold it the rest of the Tour, that would be an effort worth of a great champion (and I'll look past today's tactics).


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## Go Kart Motzart (Jan 26, 2004)

*Mayo was not a contender anyway*

Sorry to disapoint all you Mayo lovers out there, but he was in no danger of actually winning. He is a great cyclist and possibly the best climber in the world, but he not a Tour winner. Not when guys like Lance, Jan and Tyler are around. Go back to last years Tour results and check his TT and TTT results. Some will argue that the uphill TT is the great equalizer this year, but I think you will be suprised by how little time Mayo will put on Lance on L' Alpe. 

I am of the opinion that Mayo will never win a tour as long as he stays with EE or until they change their hiring practices.


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## Tri_Rich (Aug 13, 2003)

PbOkole said:


> Euskaltel has a $7.2 Million budget, Postal $9 Million. THis really isn't that huge of a difference. Just for reference, T-Mobile has $14.4 Million. IF you are going to talk about huge differences in budget, at least know the figures.


All EE riders must be from the Basque country, so despite the budget they do not have the talent pool from which to draw. In fact they probably have the best rolleurs the tiny Basque area has to offer.


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## 4bykn (Jan 28, 2001)

*I think...*



JPRider14 said:


> .
> 
> What are the time intervals between teams?


The intervals are either 3 or 5 minutes between teams.

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]
The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this same time, even if they actually finish
quicker.
The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).
If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]
Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete the stage.
However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.
As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the 5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]


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## Trek_envy (Jun 15, 2004)

*What was Postal supposed to do?*



mmoose said:


> I still think that continued attack after the cobble section was a bit cheap knowing that a contender fell. But, if they take the jersey tommorow and try to hold it the rest of the Tour, that would be an effort worth of a great champion (and I'll look past today's tactics).


Sit up and wait, and let Fassa, Lotto, or CA launch an attack to put their big guns up front? 

And really, come on, was Mayo ever really a contender? Gets pounded in the Prologue. Has no big pulls for the TTT. Lets not even look forward to the 60km LONGEST TT IN HOW MANY YEARS. Seriously, what did he do last year?

1. Attacked on l'Alpe d'Huez. Granted - good climb (he wasnt marked - Beloki was)
2. Rode on Ullrich's wheel to the the top of Luz Ardiden, then he an his EE teammate steal a time bonus - (hows that for cheap)

Thats it.

So he won the Vetoux TT by 2 min. Its an hour long. The uphill TT will be far under 40min.
(probably 36ish minutes) Do you really think that he'll take that same 2 minutes?

I guess we'll see. LA said it though. He's only threatened by JU, and his own bad luck.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well it was close to what I predicted (sort of)*

(someones hopes would be crushed before a French start).I called the wind, it turned out to be cobbles and I called that EE wouldn't be strong enough to defend Iban ( I thought it would be in the Alps week 3). Both came true today, I think it a tactical error to 'shut it down' today where total time lost was 'open' and tomorrow has a max of 3:00. so EE and Credit Ag could have burned their rides today and taken a max loss, instead they lose 4 and a half and possible 2-3:00 tomorrow. If they could have held gap at 2:00 today add 3:00 tomorrow and that's 5 min. add todays 4 and a half to whatever tomorrow (especially EE with 8 Basque non TTers and Mayo will be out 6 and a half plus.


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## TryingNotToGetDropped (Jan 2, 2003)

*Isn't this like 1998? Ulrich v Pantani*

In 1998, when Ulrich lost to Pantani, there was a critical mountain stage that was ridden in the rain. If memory serves correctly, Ulrich flatted at the bottom of the climb (in the rain) while Pantani was already on the attack. At the time of such flat, Pantani I believe had already opened a multi-minute gap on the German. Pantani did not wait or slow -- he continued on and secured his TDF win.

Isn't today's stage similar? Postal and others were pushing the pace, already on the "attack," and there was a problem in the pack. Nobody stopped to wait, not Lance, not Ulrich, not Hamilton, no one. So, where is the problem.

if Lance and mayo were together in a break, Lance could have waited. But, based on the situation, and the fact there was a huge group of riders, everyone simply continued on.

Also, it underscores this is a TEAM event! Trying training some horses to protect your climber/leader and this might not be a problem.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Early weather reports show that Eusk E. might luck out...*

tomorrow witht hem starting 1est and the worst weather expected much later int he afternoon when postal and T-mobile are going. How crazy would that be if EE is the only team to do the course fully dry and they smoke back 3 minutes on some of the better teams? ( I know, I know it won't actaully happen like that)

check out Procycling.com's report about the TTT.

-Nik


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## PbOkole (Feb 10, 2004)

Tri_Rich said:


> All EE riders must be from the Basque country, so despite the budget they do not have the talent pool from which to draw. In fact they probably have the best rolleurs the tiny Basque area has to offer.


I was ONLY addressing the budget issue. The original poster implied that if EE had Postal's budget they would be as good. I was simply pointing out that they have very similar budgets compared to T-Mobile. If you are going to try to argue a point, at least argue the point I was making. I mentioned nothing about their hiring practices, just their budget.


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## glavint (Jun 10, 2004)

*Accident versus obstacle*

Someone may have pointed this out already, but one thing I was thinking about comparing today to Luz Ardiden last year, or Ulrich going off the mountain, is that the cobbles cause falls and flats and therefore the chaos that ensues is designed to happen, whereas accidents are clearly not part of the course. Maybe that can account for at least part of the difference between waiting and not waiting. 

Can't wait to actually watch the stage tonight. Thank god for Tivo!


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## JPRider14 (Feb 9, 2004)

Old_school_nik said:


> tomorrow witht hem starting 1est and the worst weather expected much later int he afternoon when postal and T-mobile are going.-Nik


I caught that too, fierce winds and rain expected as the day goes on. 

Also, and this is important, will coverage on OLN still be on at 9amEST tomorrow? Or is it a later start? I think OLN says it's the same time, but the race actually gets going later, right?


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## feathers mcgraw (Mar 15, 2002)

I guess I was speaking from the wrong orifice about team budgets. Sorry. Couple other points. Mayo didn't crash in the cobbles, but in the leadup to the cobbles. Seems the strategy went from 'keep Lance safe in front' to 'eliminate Mayo' once they realized he was down. I thought Brunyeel was brilliant in the Vuelta with the crosswinds, but this seems below the belt to me. Obviously they couldn't have just sat up, but they didn't have to pour on the coals, either.


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## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*not sure about OLN's time coverage but the VCR will record the taped*

verssion. I got burned the first day for the prologue when they ddint start the coverge when they said they would. Unfortunately, OLN sometimes functions like a mom and pop store.

But god bless their 12 hours of TDF per day!

-Nik


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## Inspector Gadget (Apr 5, 2002)

*If the shoe was on the other foot*



feathers mcgraw said:


> Mayo wasn' t the guy they were attacking. He was up front with Postal when he went down. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a Postal took him down. Bad luck for Mayo. All I know is that if the shoe was on the other foot Lance would be screaming bloody murder. (And don't say the shoe can't be on the other foot because Lance was better prepared. I'm pretty sure Mayo was right up front with him.)


 If the shoe was on the other foot, Postal would have assisted Lance back to the lead group with relatively little difficulty, because unlike EE, Postal is actually a GOOD team.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

If EE cared about supporting Mayo, they would have brought nine riders. As it stands, they only brought eight and they are tired puppies after today. I don't see them putting out much effort tomorrow and just taking the full time punishment. EE put out a full effort last year and still lost 3:20 with nine riders last year. I can't see them killing themselves to still lose the maximum. It will be a training ride for them. Make that three rest days for EE.What do you think the times are going to be like for Rabbobank? They lost Leipheimer once and chased back, then lost two more riders right at the end. It is going to be a long sore day for those guys tomorrow.


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## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

JPRider14 said:


> And you really must be playing devil's advocate, I don't know what stage it was, but Lance completely sat up when Ullrich flipped himself off the road on a descent in the Tour 2 (I think) years ago. And when Lance and Mayo went down last year, Ullrich (and others) flat out accelerated, which he wasn't doing prior to the crash.


WTF? Ullrich (And others) flat out accelerated?


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## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

bimini said:


> It seems several teams were talking about winning the yellow before the race, thinking there was weakness in the LA / USPS camp. I think USPS is sending the message out loud and clear. Go ahead, position yourself for second place, but the yellow belongs to LA.
> 
> The USPS Team looks very well oiled and mighty this year. LA may not be in the same form as a couple of years back (then again he may be), but it is very clear the USPS machine is hitting on all eight cyclinders and is a mighty force that will be hard to stop.


I couldn't agree more with you on this statement. Yellow tomorrow for lance, and it will probably stay that way for as long as possible. It is so clear to me that the team is on fire, keeping up in the GC, and protecting lance, showing that Yellow is not up for grabs and that indeed he will get his 6th title.


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