# Some brazing detals on Columbus EL frame



## Impul (Nov 3, 2014)

Hi i'm Johnny Knoxville, and today we trying to buy a vintage Colnago in Russia. Welcome to Jackass. )

Found normal one with some defects (photos included). Tubing is Columbus EL (not EL/OS, just EL). I think this is an Elegant 93/94. It has some of this ****:













Is this very bad?

And another question. This bike has Campy Record 8-spd groupset, but rear derallieur is not marked whith "Record" label. It's from previous groupset, i think. Are this ergo-power's and rear derallieur compactible?














What you can tell me about price of frameset and groupset?

Waiting for your answers. And please sorry for my English!


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Early Record and Chorus didn't mark the rear derailleur with such. http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/d/118802-2/1993+Campagnolo+Catalog.pdf

My '94 De Rosa and Mondonico are EL OS but have a EL Columbus decal and over (the dove) size on the decal like in the pic. As far as the braze goes. It looks like the the bater bottle braze ons may have pulled out of the frame and the holes sealed...not sure. Anyway, in my opinion you have a top shelf bike on your hands, the best of the best of the time. EL OS to many in the know is the best riding tube set Columbus ever made.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

That is odd with the water bottle brazons. Is that glue in them? Can it be removed? It does kind of mess up the paint work, and will be difficult to match. You could go with blue, or try airbrushing in a little extra color.

As far as derailleur compatibility, a lot of derailleurs show up on E-Bay.

If it has a "B-Screw", then it should be compatible with your levers. That would be any of the 8, or early 9 speed derailleurs. Late model 9 speed and newer derailleurs lack the B-Screw, have an adjustment screw where the body attaches to the cage, and have a different cable pull. How does the bike shift? Can you get to all the gears on your cassette?

Looking on E-Bay, the 8 speed derailleurs often are unmarked, the 9 & later speed derailleurs have the speed noted.

I suppose the ultimate decision is whether you think you're getting a good deal on your bike.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

BTW, if you are looking to get this frame repaired, I know of a great painter/frame builder that is very reasonable. Google Allan Wanta. He has done work for me in the past with great results.


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## Impul (Nov 3, 2014)

I can't answer to questions because *i dont' have this bike*, i just thinking about buying it. All i have is some photos.

to: High Gear
Sticker on this frame is like «B» on this image:







Are you sure that the «A» variant is not EL/OS?
I hear about: «EL OS to many in the know is the best riding tube set Columbus ever made». But i heard nothing about simple ES. All i know that this is lightest tubeset (The Bicycle Info Project :: Columbus tubing chart), but did it really good?

to:CliffordK
I don't understand about «B-screw», here the photo:







Is this compactible?



> It looks like the the bater bottle braze ons may have pulled out of the frame and the holes sealed


No! Braze braze-ones are re-lugged. 








Is this frame crapped? I don't like this sealed braze-ons.
And i'm in Russia, here we don't have wide range of vintage cycles.

Complete bike:


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Ok, you have the old style derailleur WITH THE B-SCREW









The "New" style of Campy Derailleur does not have this B-Screw, but rather has a Tension Adjustment Screw on the cage. This would be a poor match for your 8-Speed shifters.









Note, your Bike also has a Shimano Cassette.









As far as I can tell, the cassette is a 7-Speed Cassette rather than an 8-Speed Cassette. 

However, looking at the Cassette Spacing Chart, The Campy-8 Speed and the Shimano 7-Speed should both have 5mm sprocket spacing so they should be compatible. 

However, a Shimano 8-Speed Cassette would have 4.8mm spacing, and IS NOT compatible.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Looking at your latest photos the braze-ons are OPEN and not sealed. 
It is impossible to tell if the threads are ok. However, one might assume that bad ones have been replaced with good ones. It certainly is something to test, or ask the seller about.

Looking at the bike as a whole, it looks nice. 

As long as it is painted, clear-coated, or something so that it doesn't rust, then when you cover those braze-ons with a water bottle cage and water bottle, then they will be hard to see. 

So, as you're cruising down the road, people will see the Colnago, not the brazing work.


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## Impul (Nov 3, 2014)

to: CliffordK 
This bike now has 8-speed shimano cassete, and rear wheel on dura-ace hub. If i buy this bike — i'll buy it without wheels, and then trying to buy old (silver) campy Eurus, and record cassete: https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Record-8-fach-Kassette-p508/ I'm planning it like this.

Seller don't know about who and how do this "braze-on operations". Installing bottle cage on this braze-ons may be risky cause they may just pulled out.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

If the threads are good, I'd go ahead and use the bottle cage mounts. What is the worst that can happen?

You also have cage mounts on the seat tube if you want to use those. If nothing else, you can use straps to hold your cage in place.

Hopefully you're getting a reasonably good deal on the bike, especially without wheels. But it still looks nice. I could imagine a lack of some western products from the Iron Curtain era. However, they should have been available for the last 20 years or so, although poverty and the devalued currency would have been problematic for imports. 

Now you should have relatively good access to European bikes and components, so don't pay more than what someone from Europe would ship a similar frame to you.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

RD is consistent with being a '94. Need a picture of the front of the shifters to confirm. All in all it's a mash-up of inconsistent parts that look well worn. I would not be paying too much for this.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Impul said:


> No! Braze braze-ones are re-lugged.
> View attachment 302101
> 
> 
> ...


From the pictures, it looks crapped to me. The left braze on looks like there is a big void in it. You have to ask why someone would need or want to fiddle with the bottle mounts, unless something was wrong. It looks like there was some damage - a rust out? - and the repair is attempting to fill a hole in the frame where the bosses were. Plus, the brazing ain't the best. 

I would pass - this frame was great when new, but I would be afraid to spend my money and find out what other (bigger) problems were lurking.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Are you getting this very cheap?

Are you a "gamblin' man"? :wink5:


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## Impul (Nov 3, 2014)

AJ88V said:


> Are you getting this very cheap?
> 
> Are you a "gamblin' man"? :wink5:


Well, i usually play poker in holidays... But i think 650$ is expensive for this one, cause i can buy Bianchi XL Ti with «Pantani» color scheme, with campy for 800$.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Impul said:


> Well, i usually play poker in holidays... But i think 650$ is expensive for this one, cause i can buy Bianchi XL Ti with «Pantani» color scheme, with campy for 800$.


Definitely not anywhere close to $650 in that condition.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

If you were in the USA, you could likely part it out and flog it on E-Bay for close to $650. Perhaps not so easy from Russia, even in an international market. However, Colnago bikes can go for funny money.

Little things like wheels are easy to replace, but not having wheels does limit the bike somewhat, and means you'll be spending money to put it back together (even if the wheels aren't a perfect match, as long as it does in fact shift).

Somewhere around $450 would be a better price point.

Gambling Man? Not really, but I do enjoy tinkering.

I'm not a big celeste fan, but titanium would be nice.


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## KensBikes (Feb 6, 2005)

I also have a Mondonico ELOS, and it is a great riding frame, possibly my best. 

My understanding of the tubing is that EL and ELOS are both Extra Light (Leggeri = Light) because the tubing walls are very thin. The OS means Over Sized, which means the outer diameters are bigger than standard - top tube should measure about 28 mm for ELOS and 25.4 for EL, for example. Because of the larger diameter, expect ELOS to be slightly heavier and considerably stiffer than EL. Because of the thin tubing walls, expect the EL to considerably more flexible (some of us think this is a good thing) than the old standard SL.

The frame has been modified, at least the bottle braze-ons. Normally one repaints after such a modification, and the frame will rust if it isn't painted. The Campy derailleurs should have enough swing to handle anything that can be on a 130 Campy hub. Might not handle 11 speed, but that is just a guess. 

If you were in the USA, I'd say just find a good frame builder within a 200 mile (300km) drive and have him fix the bottle brazes and dropouts, align the frame and fork, face otherwise treat the head tube and BB, and paint the bike (the most expensive part of this work), but for about $1000 or less you could have a like-new super light Colnago. I tend not to like powder coat. Colnagos were and are great frames, and EL could not have been a cheap tube set.

Given the right shifters those older Campy derailleurs should shift as well as when new. You can argue about brands, but many of us who have owned several sets of Campy would not use anything else.


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## KensBikes (Feb 6, 2005)

Impul said:


> I can't answer to questions because *i dont' have this bike*, i just thinking about buying it. All i have is some photos.
> 
> to: High Gear
> Sticker on this frame is like «B» on this image:
> ...


My Mondonico ELOS has a Columbus sticker that says "ELOS."

If I were to buy this bike, first thing I would do is get a cheap set of Campy hub wheels and try to tune the derailleurs to Campy specs, to make sure they work. If they work you don't have to worry about additional compatibility issues. Record was usually the first version to be given any new tech in any given year. Then I'd ride it a few rides to make sure it fits and I like it. After that you know what you have. Considering age and visible condition I'd say it should sell for $300 max, especially without any wheels. 

As I said I think the frame and fork could be fully refurbished for about $1k, but I also think you could buy a very good used Colnago frame for $500 to $700.

Unless you love it, keep looking.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

KensBikes said:


> ...
> 
> The frame has been modified, at least the bottle braze-ons. Normally one repaints after such a modification, and the frame will rust if it isn't painted.


Possibly the owner had the second set of braze-ons added to his frame, and did not like the results (or perhaps tried to do them himself?). They are not finished, and it looks like no one has run a tap through them to clean up the threads.

I think you could clean those up to useable state, and touch them up, but they will be noticeable.

In my opinion, repainting does not make sense unless the frame is very special.


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