# Approx. value of an Ultimate frame?



## WTaylorA

Looking at potentially buying my 1st Litespeed next week. Local seller has an Ultmiate frame+fork (Time CF), with an older Dura Ace crank listed for about $650. Polished frame - I'd honestly prefer brushed, but I know the polished may add a little value. He thinks it is an early 2000's, but looking at the pics, it has the curved seat tube (vs the cut-out) so I'm guessing a '99. That also means a 1 inch steerer, which may be an issue if/when looking for forks in the future.

Any thoughts? Seems like a good build project for the winter, but does the price sound about right? All I'm really seeing on ebay are full bikes.


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## smcnees

That seems like a pretty fair price as long as everything is straight, not dented, etc. I have a '98 Ultimate frame that I continue to upgrade around and have no plans to ever part with it. The ride is just too nice for me.


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## WTaylorA

Thanks smcnees! 
Picked it up last night. Went over all the welds as carefully as I could, no signs of any cracks or damage, no dings, a few scratches on the polished finish, but not worried about them at all. Seller has about 75lbs on me, and said he had zero complaints other than the frame being too small (he's also about 5 inches taller). Tossed in a cheap used stem/handlebars, enough to help build it up until I choose permanant units, so seemed like a fair deal.
Going to start removing decals tonight I think, I know Litespeed will refinish a frame for about $150, but don't know if that only applies to brushed finishes, or polished. I may give them a call. Meanwhile, going to send in the S/N to have them verify the year... as far as I can tell, I'm pretty confident that it is a '99 (curved seatpost vs. cut-out), but the headset and fork are definitely threadless - I thought the '99's were threaded stems and was bracing for sourcing a quill stem. Guess that could have been added after the fact, but the fork appears to be the original Time Equipe... I'll see what the factory says.

Thanks! Really looking forward to finally getting it on the road, probably sometime in the Spring if budget will let me build it all up by then. What are you running currently on yours?


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## pmf

You got a good deal on a great bike. 

I bought a 1999 Litespeed Ultimate frame and Look fork on close out for $1700 in early 2000. It was the last year of the curved seat tube -- UCI rules on bike geometry forbade curved seat tubes starting in 2000. So 2000 was the first year it came with a cut out seat tube. Mine had yellow Litespeed decals, a head tube badge and a Lynskey signature decal on one of the chainstays. You can find old Litespeed manuals here:

http://www.tirides.com/wp/fabricators/jkl/litespeed/litespeed-catalog-archive/

The curved seat tube bikes showed up around 1997. You should be able to identify what year your frame is by the decals -- they changed pretty much every year. Yep, the fork was threadless and 1". I had the option of either a Look HSC2 fork or a Reynolds Ouza Pro. I chose the look because it looked cool. I regret not getting the Ouza Pro. Mine is brushed. The polished ones were a couple hundred more, but as you note, not as desirable to a lot of folks (me included). You can see every fingerprint on it. 

I've ridden the bike countless miles. I rode it to work today. Its been my go-to bike for the last decade. I ride it more than my Colnago or my Merckx. Its a great touring/commuting bike because there's no paint to worry about. It has a great ride. I'm never going to sell it. From time to time, I look at ads on ebay selling LS Ultimate frames thinking maybe I ought to buy a spare one.


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## WTaylorA

Thanks pmf - the bit about the threadless stem in particular is good news, since it confused me a bit. For some reason I thought that they switched to threadless in 2000 with the move to 1 1/8 head tubes. I'll still send the S/N in for confirmation, but as far as I can tell, it IS a '99. I'm in the middle of stripping the decals off, but have plenty of pictures if I need to compare (I'm going to order a set of '99 decals, and possibly some later, 2004-5 decals, and very sparingly apply the newer ones - I'll keep the '99 stored just in case I ever decide to sell, but right now, I don't see that happening. I also pulled the headtube badge last night (will keep it safely stored) and will be replacing with the less colorful current version available on Litespeed's website.
(I'd seen the decals on Litespeed's site, but just took a closer look. Decals definitely look like a '97 - I've got the blue background on the "Ultimate" decal, but other aspects suggest '99 from the descriptions here: http://www.tirides.com/wp/fabricators/jkl/litespeed/model-history-litespeed-ultimate-road-frame/ Specifically, mine has the cable stop adjusters on the downtube, and a standard seatpost clamp. Definitely is the 3/2.5 and 6-4 tubing though, so no older than a '97.... Hmm.. looks like the serial # may really be the trick to answering the question....


Personal jury is still out on the polished vs. brushed... I wasn't crazy about the polished, but after spending a little bit of time last night cleaning and polishing... MAN can it look nice. That being said, going to be a pain to keep clean, and I've never gone for "flashy" looks. My ideal bike would be matte black from top to bottom 

Next task is to set a budget for getting it on the road, and start making decisions based on that budget. I'm thinking Ultegra is the "sensible" choice, but since most of my bikes have been Shimano, tempted to try to go Campy or Sram on this one just to be different.


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## pmf

If it has cable stops for down tube shifters then its probably not a 1999. If it has those blue background cables, its probably a 1997. The frame changed little from 1997-1999. It changed a lot over the decade or so that Litespeed sold it. 

The polished finish can look really sharp when its cleaned up. Keeping it that way might become a chore. I rarely see polished titanium bikes, so its a bit unique. 

One other thing ... the Litespeed of today is not the same outfit that made that bike. They were bought by American Bicycle Group. I've heard bad things about them regarding customer service. I doubt they'd view that bike as one of their own. The head guy at the old Litespeed waited out a no-compete agreement and has since gone into business himself making titanium bikes. I doubt he'd touch anything that says Litespeed on it with a 10 foot pole out of legal concerns. Mention the word Litespeed in an e-mail to them and they won't respond to it.


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## WTaylorA

Just FWIW - sent an email last night with the serial # to Litespeed - had a pretty courteous reply this morning, confirming that it was a '97, and offering to check any other info I was curious about. Sounds like their customer service isn't TOO awful. I already knew the story on Linksky, etc. with the sale of the company, but was pleasantly surprised by the email this AM.

I'll confess to having mixed feelings on the frame... measured it last night, and realized it was larger than I'd believed. Bought it believing it was a 57cm, measuring C-T of seat tube, it seems to be a 59. Threw on the wheels from my Trek, and definitely don't have a LOT of clearance on the top tube. Rideable certainly, I own an old steel Raleigh as well that has almost identical measurements to the Litespeed, but if investing in a frame for the "long haul", I'm debating.

There is a 2000 Ultimate frame in 53cm on ebay about an hour away from me... I may make them an offer if I am swayed enough - they're asking $900 for frame, fork, and chris king headset, which is more than I'd like to pay, but I may make them an offer and just see what they say.. Wrenchscience suggests a 53-54cm as ideal for me, my current rides are 56 and 59cm. (5'9, with a 32.25 inch inseam).


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## WTaylorA

(just a PS - sent Litespeed a reply asking if they had the frame size listed in the database - they replied within 5 minutes to let me know it was a 58cm. Can't complain at all about their cust. service, that's for sure.


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## pmf

Litespeed measured their bikes center to center. I find, compared to me other bikes, that what they state is pretty much true. I've heard Treks run small.

I'm about the same dimensions as you and ride 56 cm bikes. There's a pretty big difference between a 56 cm and a 59 cm. Is one measured C-C and the other C-T? I think you ought to figure out what size bike is best for you before you go any further. 

That LS on ebay is a 1999, not a 2000. For $900, its not a bad deal given you get a really nice fork and a CK headset (the best HS on the planet). The guy is even throwing in a seatpost. 

BTW, you say you're an hour from Baltimore? I'm in DC (line in Northern VA). If you're in the arera, you could try out my 56 cm Ultimate.


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## WTaylorA

pmf: that would actually be awesome if we can work out a good time - I'm up in Silver Spring. I'm carless these days, but if you're anywhere metro/bus (or bike) accessible, I'm reasonably flexible schedule-wise.

Re: sizes... for better or worse, I've always been a little accustomed to riding frames that were too big. Most of my biking was back in high school, when I bought a 58cm Fuji expecting to grow a bit more  I've had the Trek (56cm) since 2005 or so, but have not ridden a great deal in that time. Starting to get back into riding more over the past year or so, bought the Raleigh about 6 months ago - love the ride, but realize in comparison to the Trek that it IS too large, even though I'm comfortable on it (considering it is close to the size of the Fuji that I put thousands of miles on).

I know I'm perfectly comfortable on a 56, most "fit charts" I've seen suggest that I should be on a 54, Wrenchscience pegs me at needing a 53. Saw the 53 last night right after measuring the frame I bought, and it got me to thinking....

FWIW, I rode the Raleigh (59cm) to work today. Once I've ridden a block or so, I tend to forget about the size. Granted, most of my rides these days are short (<5miles to work, sometimes a 20 miler on the weekends, just starting to work up to riding hard again), so I'm sure at the end of a longer ride I would notice a bit more.

FWIW, here are the measurements of my 3 road bikes (as measured by me last night):
Measurements Raleigh Trek	Litespeed
BB-ST (C-T) 59 56	59
TT (T-T, inside) 54 51	54
BB-TT (C-T) 57 52	57

IOW - the Litespeed is almost exactly the same size as the Raleigh, which I'd conceded was too large.


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## rdtindsm

This is new enough that I hope I won't be resurrecting a dead thread. Thanks for the link to tirides. I bought an ultimate w/ reynolds fork at a close out price from la bicicleta in toronto I thought in 99. Found out the frame is 2000.

I have been pretty low income since 2000 and my ability to engage in a sport like cycling has suffered, but I decided that I need to ride and am restoring a bike that has an inch of dust on it. But there was enough work to do on it that I was considering selling it and getting another new bike. I found at least one bike at colorado cyclist that was tempting - Focus Cayo Carbon w/ SRAM Force. But all carbon is not the same and I've liked the lite speed as well as any of the many bikes I've owned, so I will restore. Just wish I could still as fast as this bike should be ridden.

Somebody in the day mentioned that master riders should put their names on their top tubes so that they could find their own bike in the pile of litespeeds after multi-person crashes.

I have Campy Chorus 9 speed on it and will replace the brifters because the thumb lever is stuck and I need new cables, so I looked for new shifters and found a NOS deal on 2001 Record levers. Just bought new bars (corroded from sweat near shifter clamp) and tires.

Found the NOS levers at velomine.com for 259. Not shilling, just happy with a great deal. I was thinking of bidding on some nice chorus levers on the auction site. They went for 200, used, no cables. Velomine has the levers on the auction site for 299, but you'll save about $30 by going to his website and not paying the listing fees


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## pmf

rdtindsm said:


> This is new enough that I hope I won't be resurrecting a dead thread. Thanks for the link to tirides. I bought an ultimate w/ reynolds fork at a close out price from la bicicleta in toronto I thought in 99. Found out the frame is 2000.
> 
> I have been pretty low income since 2000 and my ability to engage in a sport like cycling has suffered, but I decided that I need to ride and am restoring a bike that has an inch of dust on it. But there was enough work to do on it that I was considering selling it and getting another new bike. I found at least one bike at colorado cyclist that was tempting - Focus Cayo Carbon w/ SRAM Force. But all carbon is not the same and I've liked the lite speed as well as any of the many bikes I've owned, so I will restore. Just wish I could still as fast as this bike should be ridden.
> 
> Somebody in the day mentioned that master riders should put their names on their top tubes so that they could find their own bike in the pile of litespeeds after multi-person crashes.
> 
> I have Campy Chorus 9 speed on it and will replace the brifters because the thumb lever is stuck and I need new cables, so I looked for new shifters and found a NOS deal on 2001 Record levers. Just bought new bars (corroded from sweat near shifter clamp) and tires.
> 
> Found the NOS levers at velomine.com for 259. Not shilling, just happy with a great deal. I was thinking of bidding on some nice chorus levers on the auction site. They went for 200, used, no cables. Velomine has the levers on the auction site for 299, but you'll save about $30 by going to his website and not paying the listing fees


It may be a 1999. I got my 1999 Ultimate from Labicicletta in early 2000. I saw it on an ad in Velonews. I had the choice between a Reynolds Ouza Pro fork and a Look HSC2 fork. I chose the Look. I wish I'd gone with the Reynolds -- its a better fork. 

I have three nice bikes and I ride the Litespeed probably 50% of the time. It's a great bike. Most of my miles are commuting, so I never worry about messing up the paint (there is none). Before I had kids, I always used it on bike vacations. Yeah, it's not gee whiz light, but neither am I any more. The Dura Ace 7700 components are still working (they crapped out on my Colnago C-40), and I will definitely replace them when they go and keep riding the bike. It's my work horse. 

You're doing the right thing keeping it. Litespeed is another company now, and not in a good way. To me, it's up there with a steel Merckx or Colnago -- they just aren't making them anymore. Lynskey is making titanium bikes, but they're no better than what you have and cost a buttload. If I could only find a new 1" fork for my Litespeed that's a bit stiffer than what I have ... I'll definitely have no qualms about putting the new Dura Ace 9000 group or Campy Chorus on it when the time comes.

As far as the carbon bikes from China go -- they do nothing for me. They all look the same and have no soul. I hope you rediscover what a nice bike you have. Mine sat unappreciated for several years after I bought my C-40 until I started riding it again


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## rdtindsm

You must be right. Same buying experince. Same ad, same dealer.

The link you posted to tirides took me to a text file that only note the down tube adjusters starting with 20000. But the 1999 catalog says the braze-ons (weld-ons? -it's hard to learn a new language with advancing age) were new that year.


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## pmf

rdtindsm said:


> You must be right. Same buying experince. Same ad, same dealer.
> 
> The link you posted to tirides took me to a text file that only note the down tube adjusters starting with 20000. But the 1999 catalog says the braze-ons (weld-ons? -it's hard to learn a new language with advancing age) were new that year.



The braze-ons refers to cable guides welded onto the down tube near the head tube. Prior to that, there were shifter bosses on the down tube, but further down for shifters. By the late 1990's most manufacturers concluded that no one was going to use anything but ergo/sti shifters anymore so they moved the cableguides to the end of the down tube.


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