# Cat 4/5 or Masters?



## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Trying to decide if I should do an upcoming crit as a Cat 4/5 or Masters 45+. I'm going to go ahead and admit it - I'm a hypocrite. I have very (!) little road racing experience. When I race, it's mountain bikes. But, I have been road riding with groups for years. While I have to race with Cat 4/5 (because of points, mass start entries) I hate racing with Cat 4/5 guys (they hypocritical part).

I did a Cat 4/5 50-mile road race last year and it absolutely sucked. I made the mistake of starting toward the back - figured with 50 miles of pavement ahead... nope. If with I had a dollar for every time I heard "STOPPING" or "HOLD YOUR LINE!" and "GUYS... Relax"... It took 26 miles of hammering, braking, hammering, braking to get to the front. I pulled for a bit, chased down two team breakaway attempts (why are teams in a 4/5 anyway).... then, when I was about 5 rows back, some jackass stood up and and essentially tackled the guy beside him - took down about 8 guys. I was out. 

So... 18 months later, torn hamstring is healed... and I'm thinking of racing again. But... having heard the jokes, e.g. "The battle cry of the Cat 5 crit: INSIDE! INSIDE" and that "Cat 5 crits are the most dangerous form of road racing"... I'm wondering if I should do the 45+ Masters - in hopes that the pack will be a bit more seasoned, more racing under their belt??? Yeah - I expect this group to have some very fast guys too.

Thanks for any input.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Race both. 

Deal with it.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Race both.
> 
> Deal with it.


Is that what a lot of guys do - race a couple. e.g. their cat and their age (if masters)?

And yeah, I know I'll have to deal with it... was just looking for insight into which would have less to deal with ;-)


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

The masters will probably drop you in the first mile so it'd be safer and basically a time trial


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

nOOky said:


> The masters will probably drop you in the first mile so it'd be safer and basically a time trial


That's funny as hell.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

My Masters 45+ are, for the most part, ex Cat 1/2 racers. As Nooky suggested, only way to know is to try.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

OldZaskar said:


> That's funny as hell.


But true


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I was being semi-serious. Those old guys are fast! Cat 4's and 5's are fast, but the masters are more serious, better conditioned (imho), better tacticians, and usually comparable in times to cat 3's. At least around here.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


> Is that what a lot of guys do - race a couple. e.g. their cat and their age (if masters)?
> 
> And yeah, I know I'll have to deal with it... was just looking for insight into which would have less to deal with ;-)


Yes, race both. Dealing with sketchy riders is part of racing. Just get used to it. It's good experience. If you race both you'll be closer to upgrading. Yes, it will be difficult. Isn't that why you're doing this anyway, for the challenge? You need to accept that you'll never go pro -- so make your race days count for what they are.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

In a very general sense 45+ will be safer more controlled but many of the guys are deceptively strong for being old, bald and salty. With that said, sh!t happens at every level. Race both and get the experience if you like racing.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Most places you have to be a 4 to race masters. Some races you have to be a 3 or better. My personal favorite. Depending on where you live Masters races will be the fastest field other than the P12. You will likely get pummeled. Just suck it up and get your 10 Cat5 races in and then race masters.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Please enter the cat5 races until you have 10 race finishes for an automatic upgrade to cat4, _then _enter masters races.

The masters racing is faster, more aggresive, and requires good bike handling in close-quarters pack

Ealier this year, I suffered broken ribs and several others were moderately injured, when a cat5 triathlon dude entered the 55/60 race. He was fit, but didn't know how to safely ride thru the turns, and he caused a crash taking out several of us.

My local district has since decided to restrict 55/60 to cat4 and above. Our 45+ have always been cat1-4. There's good reasons for that ...


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

My advice is for people to race Cat 5 (or in this case 4/5) until you can upgrade. Yes, it is dangerous (I was crashed out in my first two Cat 5 road races), but it will teach you bike handling skills. Racing in Masters doesn't count for upgrades, so why waste your time. Cat up, and then race masters if you want. 

Don't expect the races to get any safer though. People like to think it is safer as you go up, but that's not exactly true. I know plenty of Cat 1, 2, and 3 racers that have had crashes in the past two years. Heck, I just watched a Cat 1/2 YouTube video where there was a super close call midway through the race and a huge crash near the end. There wasn't a crash in any of the other categories for that race. 

If masters is "safer" it is only because there are less people to crash into. 

Best of luck!


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## tazunemono (Jun 5, 2013)

Masters 40+ is as fast (or faster!) than cat 1/2 ... prepare to get your a$$ handed to you! Field is chock full of ex-1,2 and pro cyclists. Also, cat 5 is where you learn. It is NOT slow, it's full of guys who will be cat 4,3,2,1 in a matter of months. I don't think you can race master's as a cat5 anyways (I'm only 37, what do I know?)


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

OldZaskar said:


> Trying to decide if I should do an upcoming crit as a Cat 4/5 or Masters 45+. I'm going to go ahead and admit it - I'm a hypocrite. I have very (!) little road racing experience. When I race, it's mountain bikes. But, I have been road riding with groups for years. While I have to race with Cat 4/5 (because of points, mass start entries) I hate racing with Cat 4/5 guys (they hypocritical part).
> 
> Thanks for any input.


See "You're Not As Good as You Think You Are" (especially the part about self evaluations of grammar and logic skills) and then reconsider.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

nOOky said:


> I was being semi-serious. Those old guys are fast! Cat 4's and 5's are fast, but the masters are more serious, better conditioned (imho), better tacticians, and usually comparable in times to cat 3's. At least around here.


Yep, n00ky's hit it on the head- that's what it's like here too.
If you don't want to ride w/ the 4/5's because they're sketchy, you should try and hang w/ the Masters.
DO EEET!!


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Sounds like the thing to do is race only the Cat-4/5. Based on what you guys are saying, I don't think I can push the hypocrite thing that far - racing the Masters 45+. As much as I don't like racing with the likes of me, I don't want to add another me to the Masters class... they've earned their class. I'll have to do the same. 

And yeah, I get the "You're not as good (fast) as you think you are". I know riding with or hanging in a group of fast guys on a Saturday training ride is NOTHING like racing with/against them. I have very limited road racing experience, but I've seen it both directions (crushing and being crushed) in mtb racing. 

Thanks guys


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I call BS on the masters being as fast (or faster) than the P1/2. There may be a small handful of TRT guys in the masters fields who would be competitive in the P1/2s. And those are the small handful of guys who regularly win the masters races and win the masters state championships. Or maybe it's just that one guy who is a freak that keeps winning master races and then jumps in the P1/2 crit and gets top five there too. But for the most part, masters racing is not as fast or aggressive as P1/2. Why? Because P1/2 has professionals, guys who get paid to ride fast. And a bunch of 21 year old kids who have ALL DAY to ride. And the P1/2 guys are used to racing against the pros. That's not to say that masters racing isn't fast or awesome. Masters racing is fast and awesome. It's just not P1/2 racing. 

/rant

Why did someone say that the 45+ race would not count towards your upgrade? Is that a USAC rule? 


Either way, I still think you should race both. 

Everyone needs to start somewhere. There will be exactly zero professionals in the 4/5 or masters fields. 

I don't believe anyone needs to get good enough to qualify to race Cat 5 OR open masters races. Cat 4/5 is, after all, the beginner class. Same goes for the 45+. Some of those guys will be fast/savvy enough to get in there and win with relative ease. If the guys are strong enough to wreck the field they will not be anywhere near the weaker riders -- let them battle it out up front. But some riders will be at your level.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> I call BS on the masters being as fast (or faster) than the P1/2. There may be a small handful of TRT guys in the masters fields who would be competitive in the P1/2s. And those are the small handful of guys who regularly win the masters races and win the masters state championships. Or maybe it's just that one guy who is a freak that keeps winning master races and then jumps in the P1/2 crit and gets top five there too. But for the most part, masters racing is not as fast or aggressive as P1/2. Why? Because P1/2 has professionals, guys who get paid to ride fast. And a bunch of 21 year old kids who have ALL DAY to ride. And the P1/2 guys are used to racing against the pros. That's not to say that masters racing isn't fast or awesome. Masters racing is fast and awesome. It's just not P1/2 racing.
> 
> /rant
> 
> ...


I agree that P/1/2 is faster than the masters. Where I race, the masters are the fast guys that may have a hard time keeping up with the P/1/2 race.

I was the one that said masters doesn't count toward upgrade. I don't know if that is a USAC rule per se, but I have heard conversations between experienced racers, novices, and one official where the statement was made that masters races don't count toward an upgrade. That may be erroneous, as I never verified the statement.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I cannot say for certain but I'm pretty confident that masters races count for mass start experience. But you cannot get to Cat 1 by only doing masters races. 

Guidelines and Notes by Category
Category 5 to 4: Finish 10 mass start races.
Category 4 to 3: 20 points; or experience in 25 races with a minimum of 10 top-10 finishes with fields of 30 riders or more; or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50. 30 Points in 12 months is a mandatory upgrade.
USA Cycling-sanctioned rider camps and clinics that are approved by the Local Associations for upgrading will count as a maximum of three upgrade points when upgrading from category 4 to 3.
Category 3 to 2: 30 points; 40 points in 12 months is a mandatory* upgrade
Category 2 to 1: 35 points**; 50 points in 12 months is a mandatory* upgrade

*Junior riders are exempt from the mandatory upgrade rules on the road.
***For category 1 upgrades, only 10 of the points may be earned in races that are part of a training series or may be earned in masters races.*


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

I usually race my cat then the 35+ masters or the other way around. I always do better my second race. It's the same leg flushing like if you take a break during a very long hill or hard group ride, you get back on and the pedals just spin a little easier.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

jspharmd said:


> I was the one that said masters doesn't count toward upgrade. I don't know if that is a USAC rule per se, but I have heard conversations between experienced racers, novices, and one official where the statement was made that masters races don't count toward an upgrade. That may be erroneous, as I never verified the statement.


You can upgrade with Master results. I have spoken to USA Cycling corporate. It is a little tricky depending. If you are a Cat4 racing masters in a normal situation where you have to be a Cat4 or higher your result would be like any other race as everyone you beat was your Cat or higher. If you are a Cat3,2,1 it is a little trickier. You have to show the Cats of every racer you beat and that beat you. Makes sense though. If you are a Cat2 master and the whole field was 1's and 2's why wouldn't you get upgrade points?


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Sonomasnap said:


> If you are a Cat2 master and the whole field was 1's and 2's why wouldn't you get upgrade points?


For the road racing 2 to 1 upgrade, you can only use 10 points from masters races.
See Rule 1E2 at USA Cycling Rule Book - USA Cycling


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

If you've made the choice to race masters once you get to cat 3 for nationals, why would upgrades be a concern at all? Seems to me if you're worried about upgrading you should always just race your category.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Mafjrk said:


> The masters will probably drop you in the first mile so it'd be safer and basically a time trial




Damn...you used more smilies in your first 10 posts that most of use all year...easy there new guy.


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## goldsbar (Apr 24, 2002)

Agree that moving up in race ranks is not really safer. I'd like to see stats. I'd think Cat 5 is only slightly more dangerous.

Also agree that masters is safer because it's generally (not always) a smaller field and you'll probably be shelled if it's a hilly race. If it's flat, you can probably hang. At least in my area, it seems like a few really fast guys and a bunch of guys probably the same as younger 3s and fast 4s. I was/am a lifelong 4 and I could hang with them in the flat races with 5-7 hrs/week of training. Of course there was always a breakaway of 3 guys going the same speed without a pack and I was always dropped in the last 500 meters or so.


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