# LeMond used EPO???



## Bry03cobra

I was at my local grocery store and spotted a mens mag with LeMond on the cover(either mens journal or mens health). There was a interview with LeMond, so I read it. A few things troubled me about the interveiw. 

He (LeMond) is hung up on "test numbers". Stating how if someone doesn't test a certain number, they can't win. Not taking smart riding and team strength in to account(I'm paraphrasing, not quoting, maybe someone can help out here) 

Another thing is during a race, LeMond bonked hard,Was spent. Then in front of a Velonews editor received 3 "Iron Shots". While google searching this, read that "Iron Shot" was code word for EPO. Many riders were unaware they were being doped. 

Iam a LA supportor, but thought GL was right about riders doping. I feel LA was just the strongest doper of the dopers. I also support FL, but have no doubt he doped (T-Patch, everyone does/did use it). But always felt GL was clean and a genitc freak. But after reading that, kinda think he is just like LA. Strongest doper of his time. I don't think diferently of what he did, just he is no longer an "angel", and think somebody in a glass house shouldn't throw stones at others.

Bryan


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## Dwayne Barry

Yes, that speculation has been around for a while. Seems like from what I recall, it's pretty unlikely but maybe?

The story is from '89 which is the same year FDA approved the first EPO drug, Epogen. Would depend on the timing of when the approval occured in '89 unless willing to speculate somebody had some stolen from clinical trials or something.


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## wipeout

I believe Lemond was diagnosed as anemic, which if you have ever had that you would know what iron shots can do for you. Dope? Don't think so...


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## iliveonnitro

I'm in the "don't know" boat, like everyone else, but I feel like he did. I just think he realizes that there is absolutely no evidence out there against him so he believes he can run his mouth with no repercussions.


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## Bocephus Jones II

They all doped. It's much easier believing that.


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## Bry03cobra

wipeout said:


> I believe Lemond was diagnosed as anemic, which if you have ever had that you would know what iron shots can do for you. Dope? Don't think so...



At what age was LeMond diagnosed?? Sounds kind of like how the current crop gets diagnosed as atsmatic!!!


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## asgelle

Bry03cobra said:


> At what age was LeMond diagnosed?? Sounds kind of like how the current crop gets diagnosed as atsmatic!!!


Yeah, emergency rooms are full of athletes shooting themselves so they can be diagnosed as anemic.


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## Bry03cobra

asgelle said:


> Yeah, emergency rooms are full of athletes shooting themselves so they can be diagnosed as anemic.


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Why the hostility???
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I don't doubt somebody with anemia. But a pro cyclist who suddenly becomes anemic??? Sounds as bad as LA saying "I never failed a test", not "I never doped". Lora Torres is being accused of doping beacause of her age/performance and recent astma diagnosis.
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Did you read LeMonds interveiw???
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## asgelle

Bry03cobra said:


> But a pro cyclist who suddenly becomes anemic???


It's not like Lemond was just going along and suddenly became anemic. There was a somewhat significant event that preceded it now wasn't there? From your original question about how old Lemond was, it appears you're unaware of this.


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## Bry03cobra

I think your refering to the hunting accident?? As a 15 year old cyclist in 89, I loved LeMond. I followed as close as I could back then.....what I'm asking.......what year did GL "discover" he was enemic?? In the interview he states due to the remaining gunshot in him, his lead levels are high. So if it happened after the shooting, adding Iron helps high lead??


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## lookrider

How about '84, '85, and '86 when there was no such thing as EPO? LeMond was 23, 24, and 25 at the time and was 3rd, 2nd, and 1st in the TdF. He would have won in '85 had he not "gifted" it to Hinault.

In '87,when he was shot he nearly bled to death, and would have loved to get a transfusion or some EPO. He couldn't be transfused because the blood banks may have been contaminated with HIV and EPO did not exist yet.

GL and LA are two totally different cases. GL was a legend in the making before he was shot. LA was a Grand Tour also ran. Sorry if the facts dismay some of you...


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## Bry03cobra

here is the story I read......

Funny how simular the GL supportors sound to the LA and FL supportors........"Lemond couldnt have doped beacause he.....(race result here)", Lance couldnt have doped beacause he (insert excuse here) before he had cancer. 
There are no completley "clean" racer in a dirty sport.
_____________________________________________________________________

These days, the first American Tour de France champion seems to have more vendettas than victories. As trek bicycles, his longtime sponsor, sues LeMond to shut up about Lance Armstrong and doping, Bill Gifford tries to determine whether the former superstar is a crusader out to save cycling or one massively bitter maniac.


Greg LeMond’s attack dog is staring me down. I’ve made it as far as the living room of the family’s brick manor outside Minneapolis, but now this purebred German shepherd has stopped me in my tracks.
“His name’s Yester, as in ‘yesterday,’ ” the three-time Tour de France winner tells me, rubbing the neck of the dog he’s owned for all of six months. “Aww, he’s okay.”
“He likes you,” LeMond’s wife Kathy chimes in.
I’m not so sure. Yester hasn’t released me from his gaze, and his snout is aimed at the meaty part of my thigh. I try to remember what the Dog Whisperer advises in such situations. Should I stare back into those expressionless eyes or avoid eye contact altogether?
But even the Dog Whisperer rarely deals with creatures such as Yester, who is no house pet but a Level III Schutzhund, a highly trained German-bred police dog, used for security purposes only and costing upward of $20,000. “All I have to do is say ‘throat!’ ” LeMond whispers, “and he’d kill you.” Lucky it is then that Yester only understands commands in German.
It might seem odd to keep a lethal guard dog in the tranquil exurb of Medina, where the locals rarely get up to anything worse than foxhunting. But if you had the kind of enemies that LeMond has acquired over the last few years, you might consider getting some protection too. He has sued everyone from Tim Blixseth, the billionaire who developed the Yellowstone Club, to various sponsors and business partners. He has tape-recorded phone calls with business associates and friends, and, most famously, he’s tangled with Lance Armstrong and Floyd Landis, the only other Americans to have won the Tour de France. LeMond was among the first to suggest that media darling Armstrong might have used performance-enhancing drugs, and he testified at Landis’s doping hearing last May, after a Landis associate threatened to publicly reveal that LeMond had been sexually abused as a child.
By refusing to keep quiet LeMond has created a massive rift in the sport he left nearly 15 years ago. The Lance/Landis camp derides him as a “whiner” who’s jealous of all other American Tour winners and who may have even used blood boosters himself, while the pro-LeMond camp worships him as the greatest champion of all. “I’ve received death threats,” he says. “I’ve had people say I should have my teeth kicked out. I’m a lightning rod for everybody.”
This spring LeMond launched a new offensive in his long-running war with Armstrong by serving a breach-of-contract lawsuit against Trek, which has licensed the LeMond Racing Cycles brand since 1995 and which also sponsored Armstrong beginning in 1998. The partnership generated more than $100 million for Trek and $5 million for LeMond over the years. Ostensibly a business dispute, the complaint is filled with explosive allegations against Trek and Armstrong — among other things, that Trek stopped promoting LeMond’s products after he spoke out against doping and Armstrong. It goes so far as to say that Armstrong was trying to sabotage LeMond’s business. “Lance basically destroyed my bike company,” LeMond says.
“I’m a busy man,” Armstrong told me, when I later asked him about this. “Greg LeMond is never on my to-do list.”
Trek fired back with a massive, very public countersuit against LeMond, claiming that LeMond’s “inconsistent behavior” damaged the Trek brand and harmed his own company as well. The case may open up a Pandora’s box of cycling’s darkest secrets. Sample allegation: that Armstrong’s team paid a $500,000 bribe to persuade cycling officials to accept a backdated prescription after Armstrong tested positive for corticosteroids during the 1999 Tour. “I don’t care if he is a hero,” LeMond says. “I am going to bring that to the forefront.”
Armstrong dismisses LeMond, saying, “I feel really sorry for the guy,” but taking the high road seems unlikely to keep LeMond at bay. In his home, LeMond tells me ominously, “I was always too nice. I’m holding people accountable from now on.”
It seems wise for me to make friends with Yester, so I let him give my hand a good sniff before I reach down to rub his neck. He assents, relaxing slightly, but I still feel a vibration rising from deep within his chest, the low beginning of a growl.
His tires sizzling on the hot pavement, Greg LeMond sprints past in a blur, blond hair blowing back in the wind, still looking like the powerful athlete who stunned the world by winning Europe’s greatest bicycle race more than two decades ago.
Only it isn’t Greg LeMond; it’s his son Geoffrey, who at 23 is a dead ringer for his old man in his glory days. “That’s how he trains,” the real Greg LeMond says proudly, riding beside me. “Balls to the wall.”
The famous mane is now silver, and there are 50 more pounds of him than back in the day, but at 46 the elder LeMond still resembles his younger self. His eyes are the same dazzling blue, though now they seem sadder and heavier, more like those of an old hound dog than the eager puppy he was when he won the Tour the first time.
We’d spent the morning watching coverage of the 2007 Tour de France. LeMond’s mind seems troubled by the race he won in 1986, 1989, and 1990. He’s horrified by the extent to which performance-enhancing drugs have distorted the contest. Just the day before, a key contender had been tossed out of the race for an illegal blood transfusion — basically, for having someone else’s blood in his body.
“I can’t come to grips with how corrupt it has become,” LeMond told me earlier. “I want to be a fan, but I know too much.”
For years he barely even rode his bike, until he started riding with Geoffrey two years ago. LeMond thought it might help his son beat back the depression and substance abuse problems that had haunted him since his teens. Geoffrey has considered trying to turn pro, but LeMond opposes it because he doesn’t want his son to be tempted to use performance drugs.
It’s not clear he’d need to, if he has inherited the tiniest strand of his father’s DNA. From the moment Greg began showing up at bike races around his native Reno, Nevada, as a teenager, he won just about everything. In a tough race up Mount Tamalpais, outside San Francisco, 15-year-old Greg placed second only to the great George Mount, who’d finished sixth a few months earlier in the 1976 Olympics.
LeMond was gifted with an ungodly VO2 max of 93; sometimes he puts it at 94 or even 95, but at any rate his would have been among the highest VO2 maxes ever recorded. (The VO2 max measures an athlete’s aerobic activity; a typical fit man’s score is 60.) By age 19, LeMond had a pro contract to race in Europe, so he and his new wife Kathy moved to France, and later Belgium. He won the world championships in 1983, and in 1984 he finished third in the Tour de France. “When you’re good,” he tells me, “you’re good from the beginning.”
He rode under the wing of his superstar teammate Bernard Hinault, who had basically adopted the LeMonds, kicking them some extra prize money to supplement Greg’s $12,000-a-year salary. Once he even changed a tire on LeMond’s Renault. The great Hinault, changing a tire for l’Americain! In 1985 he finished second to Hinault in the Tour, and finally, in ’86, this blond kid with the gleaming Colgate smile led the entire Tour de France peloton onto the Champs-Elysées, a conquering hero who was nevertheless adored by everybody in France.
It should’ve been so perfect after that; his life an athlete’s fairy tale. Yet even then there were hints of trouble to come, rumblings of conflicts and conspiracies. It started with Hinault, who had attacked LeMond relentlessly during the race, despite promising to help him win. “He was a fatherlike figure who let me down,” LeMond says. “It just crushed me.”
Then the legal wrangles started, a torrent of lawsuits that has continued pretty much unabated since. LeMond sued anyone who tried to use his image for profit. A series of tough negotiations between LeMond and several team sponsors yielded the highest salary ever paid to a professional cyclist — $5.5 million over three years — but also bred acrimony. “He was a businessman on the bike — the very first,” says his former trainer, the renowned Dutch physiologist Adrie van Diemen.
In the spring of 1987, LeMond’s life took another dramatic turn when he returned from Europe to recover from a hand injury. While hunting on opening day of turkey season, he accidentally stood in the path of a blast from his sister’s husband’s 12-gauge. He lost three-quarters of his blood and endured a collapsed lung. That he went on to win the 1989 Tour de France, two years later, with 35 pellets still embedded in his body — three of them next to his heart — might qualify as a Vatican-worthy act of God. Yet there he was, hurtling down the Champs-Elysées on the final day, winning the race by a razor-thin margin of eight seconds.
The next morning Americans who barely knew what a derailleur was awoke to read about Greg LeMond’s amazing comeback. Sports Illustrated named him Sportsman of the Year, a first for a cyclist, and the next six months disappeared in a blur of awards banquets and celebrations. “I was overwhelmed,” he recalls. In 1990 he won a third Tour, staking his place among the greatest athletes ever.
He didn’t know yet that this was the peak, as good as it was ever going to get. The following year he struggled to finish seventh, and each year after that the pace of the pack got faster, especially on the climbs. In one mountain stage of the 1992 Tour, LeMond finished nearly 50 minutes behind the winner. He used to win in the mountains. He quit the race the next day. “It was a very confusing period,” LeMond says. “But it makes sense today.”
At the time, he blamed himself; the winner that day in 1992 was the scrupulously drug-free Andy Hampsten. LeMond trained harder than he ever had in his life and changed his diet, but nothing worked. “My dad tortured himself,” says Geoffrey. Finally he went to see a Belgian doctor named Yvan Van Mol. “ ‘There’s nothing wrong with you, Greg,’ ” LeMond says the doctor told him. “ ‘If you’re going to compete today, you’ve got to go see Ferrari.’ ”
Dr. Michele Ferrari was an Italian sports doctor who had become notorious for his glib comments about performance drugs, comparing EPO to orange juice, and declaring that it didn’t bother him if his athletes went to Switzerland to buy blood-boosters. Many top riders had already started seeing Ferrari, and their performances had improved markedly. But LeMond refused: Greg LeMond didn’t need anything the Italian doctor could provide. He had the highest VO2 max, and he could still beat everyone.
Except he couldn’t. In 1994 he struggled to keep up on the flat stages. “We were always in the red — dans la rouge,” he says. When the pack dropped him yet again during the sixth stage, he got off his bike and climbed into the “broom wagon,” which cruises along behind the race to sweep up exhausted riders, the most humiliating way possible to exit a race.
In December 1994, LeMond announced his retirement, citing mitochondrial myopathy, a rare condition in which the body’s cellular energy system basically breaks down. By then America was getting to know its newest young cycling superstar: a cocky 23-year-old Texan named Lance Armstrong.
After winning the world championships in 1993, Armstrong skyrocketed from newcomer to hero. When he came back from cancer to win the ’99 Tour he was deemed the second coming of LeMond, and he too was named SI’s Sportsman of the Year. At the start of the 2001 Tour, however, the London Sunday Times published an article by David Walsh detailing Armstrong’s history with none other than Dr. Michele Ferrari, who by that time was under criminal investigation in Italy. It questioned Armstrong’s return from testicular cancer, a malignancy that spread to his brain and lungs and nearly took his life in 1996, to win the Tour two times (going on three that summer). In a follow-up story, LeMond dropped this bomb: “If Lance is clean, then it is the greatest comeback in the history of sports. If he isn’t, it would be the greatest fraud.”
The uproar began immediately. Armstrong called LeMond a few days after the 2001 Tour ended. “You’re telling me you’ve never done EPO?” LeMond alleges Armstrong said, referring to the blood-boosting drug erythropoietin. “Your comeback in ’89 was so spectacular. Mine was a miracle, yours was a miracle. You couldn’t have been as strong as you were in ’89 without EPO.”
“Listen, Lance, before EPO was ever in cycling I won the Tour de France…because I had a VO2 max of 95. Yours was 82. Tell me one person who said I did EPO.”
“Everyone knows it.”
“Are you threatening me?” LeMond says he asked.
“If you want to throw stones, I will throw stones,” Armstrong allegedly replied. Later in the conversation, LeMond says, Armstrong promised to “find at least 10 people who will say you did EPO.”
“It’s my word versus his,” said Armstrong, reached by phone in St. Bart’s earlier this year. “But I’m telling you, his description of that call is 100 percent inaccurate. He was accosting me, screaming and yelling. He was not acting normal that day.” (In a deposition, Armstrong described LeMond as “like a drunk.”)
However that phone call went down, LeMond’s troubles were only beginning. Speaking out against Armstrong carried serious consequences in the close-knit cycling world. “There was this Lance mania going on, and people were angry about what LeMond said,” says LeMond’s former teammate Andy Hampsten. “He had nothing to gain and quite a lot to lose by sticking his neck out.”
LeMond spent the first two weeks of August 2001 fielding calls from cycling bigwigs, including Thom Weisel, chairman of USA Cycling and the owner of Armstrong’s team. He also heard from Trek CEO John Burke, who pleaded with LeMond to stand down and, according to LeMond’s 2008 lawsuit against Trek, “implied in graphic terms that Mr. Armstrong would financially harm Mr. LeMond.” Spooked, LeMond began taping the calls. But he was trapped; Burke demanded he issue a retraction, drafted by Armstrong’s attorney.
Two weeks later a “clarification” from LeMond appeared in USA Today. “I do not believe, in any way, that [Armstrong] has ever used any performance-enhancing substances,” LeMond was quoted as saying. “I believe his performances are the result of the same hard work, dedication, and focus that were mine 10 years before.”
He says differently now. “I only regret that a retraction was forced out of me. I wouldn’t change anything, not a word.” In fact, he ups the ante. “Lance is the epitome of the opposite of what a champion is. He gets away with it because he’s a cancer survivor.”
After an hour of riding in almost unbearable heat, LeMond and I stop for a mercy Coffee Cooler at Caribou Coffee. When I emerge with my drink he is deep in conversation with two new-agey male acquaintances about Christianity and shame. Before long LeMond casually brings up the sexual abuse he’d suffered as a child.
“It was so painful that I couldn’t tell anybody, and I was quite self-destructive,” LeMond told the two. “I would have preferred to kill myself before I told my wife.”
Starting about six years ago, at the same time that his public comments about Armstrong were keeping him in the headlines, LeMond’s personal life was beginning to unravel, triggered by his son Geoffrey’s deepening depression. The oldest of LeMond’s three children, Geoffrey had been traumatized as a toddler when his father was shot, and it didn’t help that LeMond traveled constantly. “His dad was gone 200 days a year,” Kathy tells me. “He would just sob.”
“I’m so glad I’m not a professional cyclist anymore, because it’s incredibly selfish,” LeMond says when we’re back at the house. “You’ve got everyone around you supporting you and propping your ego up.”
The only thing worse is when all that ends and the bottom drops out. As he watched his son going in and out of treatment facilities, LeMond could feel his own secret rising to the surface. It culminated on his son’s 18th birthday, in 2002, when Geoffrey showed up late to a celebratory dinner and a family confrontation ensued. “That was only the beginning,” Geoffrey says now. “I hated them for a long time.”
“I wished I could tell him I didn’t have this magical childhood,” LeMond tells me. “If he knew the suffering I had done internally, he would think differently. But I couldn’t tell him.”
One night, with the help of a bottle of scotch, LeMond tried to tell Kathy about his abuse, but it was no use. “I’ll tell you on my deathbed,” he mumbled as he passed out. Six weeks later he took off to Arizona with another woman. “Our whole family was on [the antidepressant] Celexa,” LeMond tells me, breaking into sobs. “I couldn’t console my son. Instead of giving him the care he needed, I tried to run.” He came back and finally told Kathy what had been done to him, three decades before; the thing that haunted him, that kept him running.
It happened to LeMond, as it so often does, at the hands of someone he knew well. In his case it was a man named Ron, a trusted family friend. When LeMond was about eight years old, Ron started taking him skiing and camping in the mountains. “He was kind of like a Boy Scout counselor,” LeMond says of Ron, who was considerably older than him. “If you think about pedophiles, they’re all that type.”
When Greg got a little older, Ron started showing him pornographic magazines and talking about sexual things. The young boy got aroused, and Ron took advantage of him. “He waited until I was just at the right stage of development,” LeMond says now. He can’t remember whether the abuse continued for three months or a year and three months; he just tried to shut it out.
For decades the secret ate at him. Even as he stood on the Tour de France podium in 1986, shaking hands with Paris mayor Jacques Chirac, he says, he wondered if Ron was out there somewhere, ready to tell the world and embarrass him.
A year ago, everyone with a television found out that Greg LeMond had been sexually abused, thanks to a bizarre incident at the Floyd Landis arbitration hearing. Landis, the 2006 Tour de France winner, had tested positive for testosterone during the Tour and stood to be stripped of his victory if found guilty. LeMond had been called to testify for USADA, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, about a call Landis had made to him a few days after the offending urine sample. Earlier, LeMond had told a French newspaper, “If he is confirmed positive, I hope he has the courage to tell the truth. I hope that he won’t do what another American did: deny, deny, deny.”
Landis was either perturbed about LeMond’s comments (says Landis) or seeking the older rider’s advice (says LeMond). According to LeMond, he urged Landis — if he had used drugs — to own up to it. Better to confront the truth than have it eat at you from inside. “It’s the defense mechanism of the lie that poisons you,” he told Landis. To illustrate the point, LeMond told him about the secret he’d kept for many years.
“What good would it do?” Landis replied, according to LeMond. “Everybody would hate me. I would destroy all my friends.”
What good would it do? That struck LeMond as a tacit admission. And the conversation didn’t stay private for very long. When a Canadian reporter called Landis, wondering if he’d “admitted” drug use to LeMond, Landis hit the roof. On a cycling website he posted a message saying, in part, “Unfortunately, the facts that he divulged to me in the hour which he spoke…would damage his character severely and I would rather not do what has been done to me. However, if he ever opens his mouth again and the word Floyd comes out, I will tell you all some things that you will wish you didn’t know.…”
In fact LeMond hadn’t told the reporter about the call; a friend of his wife’s had. But when USADA asked him to testify at Landis’s hearing, LeMond agreed, he says, only after Landis rejected an alleged offer from USADA to fink on his former teammate, Armstrong, in exchange for a lesser sanction. (It was a rough month; LeMond’s mother was in a coma, dying of liver disease, and he hadn’t spoken to his parents in four years, since he’d revealed his abuse to them. “I had a lot of questions I wanted answered, and it went to a shame-based reaction,” he says. “I never got to talk to my mom again.”)
The night before the Landis hearing, LeMond’s phone rang. A strange voice was on the other line, claiming to be his “uncle” — his abuser. “I’m gonna be there tomorrow,” the man said, “and we can talk about how we used to hide your weenie.”
During his testimony the next day, LeMond held up his phone, revealing the incoming call log. Several present immediately recognized that the call had come from a phone belonging to Will Geoghegan, Landis’s friend and business manager. Landis’s lawyer Maurice Suh wheeled around and faced Geoghegan. “You’re fired!” he spat.
Landis was convicted and stripped of his Tour title, and although the arbitration panel stated that LeMond’s testimony had nothing to do with its decision, the incident sealed Landis’s fate in the court of public opinion. Sports columnists and commentators who once summoned sympathy for Landis now wrote him off as an unworthy cheat, one who had violated the ultimate taboo. As even Armstrong says, “Man, you don’t wish that on your worst enemy.”
Only about eight people know for sure what happened in a certain Indiana cancer ward on October 27, 1996, the supposed date of Armstrong’s alleged hospital room confession. Armstrong watchers, cycling obsessives, and conspiracy theorists have argued about it, analyzed it, and blogged it to death, and no one would be surprised if it were to reemerge in LeMond’s suit against Trek, triggering a new flood of gossip.
The issue first came to light in the 2004 French book L.A. Confidentiel, written by David Walsh, based on his London Times piece. Drawing on interviews with former teammates and support staff — and the LeMonds, who are thanked in the credits — Walsh alleges that Armstrong had used performance-enhancing substances both before and after he was diagnosed with cancer in 1996. “I don’t know how long [Lance] can continue to convince everybody of his innocence,” LeMond told a French daily in July 2004, on the publication of L.A. Confidentiel (Walsh updated the book and published it in English as From Lance to Landis in 2007).
Though she’s not named as the source, it later emerged that Betsy Andreu, wife of former Armstrong friend and teammate Frankie Andreu, told Walsh that in October 1996, she and her husband were present in Armstrong’s hospital room when he told doctors he had used EPO, human growth hormone, and testosterone. Others there that day denied Armstrong had said any such thing, including Armstrong’s doctor, his coach, and a rep for Oakley sunglasses named Stephanie McIlvain, who worked with Armstrong and had also worked with LeMond. But the allegations led to a legal dispute between Armstrong and a company called SCA Promotions, which had promised a $5 million bonus if Armstrong won a sixth Tour. When Armstrong won a sixth time, SCA withheld the payment until an investigation could be completed.
LeMond was not in the room that day, but he ended up advising SCA and looking into the incident on his own. In 2002 he surreptitiously recorded a phone call with McIlvain, with whom he hadn’t spoken in years. “You’re not taping this, are you, Greg?” she asks jokingly on the recording (which is available online). “No, no,” he says, before leading her circuitously to the subject of the hospital room. “I was in that room,” she says. “I heard it. I definitely won’t lie.”
But McIlvain later testified that she hadn’t heard Armstrong admit to using any performance drugs. The LeMond tape was inadmissible as evidence, in part because recordings obtained without the subject’s consent are illegal in California, where McIlvain lives. Reached by phone, McIlvain declined to comment.
“Why would an icon of world sports do that?” Armstrong wonders about LeMond’s stealth recordings. “If Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did that to Michael Jordan, we would think he was the craziest guy alive!”
“The police suggested I start taping conversations,” LeMond counters. “I felt really afraid, and not just financially. That period was not a fun period.”
SCA president Bob Hamman says LeMond’s comments and testimony “pretty much convinced us we should pursue the case” against Armstrong. But in the end, SCA ended up settling, in February 2006, for $5 million, plus another $2.5 million in interest and fees. Despite the parade of witnesses, the arbitrators never ruled on whether or not Armstrong had doped.
“I’m not sitting in my house upset that he surpassed me by four Tours de France,” LeMond insists, but one could argue that Armstrong’s ascendancy was not necessarily a good thing for LeMond. Sponsors such as Oakley had dropped him unceremoniously; a deal to market a LeMond-branded line of low-end bikes and cycling accessories in Target stores also fell through, in 2002, in part because the company, PTI Holdings, felt LeMond was “no longer the preeminent American cyclist.” (LeMond sued for breach of contract and eventually won almost $3.5 million from PTI.)
Yet on balance Armstrong’s rise helped LeMond, by spurring interest in cycling to unprecedented levels. Sales of his road bikes jumped from less than $8 million in ’98 to more than $15 million, where it’s stayed until recently. It also benefited LeMond Fitness, which makes stationary bicycles and accessories. “I had everything to gain from him winning the Tour,” LeMond says. “But I couldn’t support him.”
The reason, he says, dates back to the 2000 Tour, when his former mechanic Julian DeVriese, who’d gone to work for Armstrong, told him that Armstrong’s U.S. Postal Service team was experimenting with some sort of superior blood-doping product, more powerful than EPO, that cleared out of an athlete’s body within 48 hours and was thus undetectable. “ ‘This isn’t cycling anymore,’ ” LeMond testified that DeVriese had told him. It was competitive pharmacology. (“Absolutely, 100 percent not true,” Armstrong says; DeVriese later signed an affidavit denying he’d said any such thing.)
LeMond says he was devastated. All of a sudden it made sense why he couldn’t seem to finish the Tour after 1991, and why his old teammate Philippe Casado had left for an Italian team that reputedly had an EPO program — and then died at age 30.
LeMond had had a squeaky-clean reputation as a racer, and in 1988, he quit his team when a teammate tested positive for testosterone. Even so, a whisper campaign alleging that he, too, used drugs during his career started around the time he first came to blows with Armstrong and continues online to this day. The case against LeMond goes something like this: He always used the most advanced cycling equipment. He was also a serious student of training and nutrition. Wouldn’t such an “early adopter” be drawn to a new miracle substance such as EPO? Especially if it hadn’t yet been banned from cycling? (EPO was officially forbidden in 1990 but couldn’t be reliably tested for until 2001.)
“What pissed me off about Lance’s accusations was his idea that my comeback was a ‘miracle,’ ” LeMond says. “Was I on a doping program at 15? When I was 16, I was the best bike rider in the United States.”
Others point to his final time trial in 1989, when he made up a 50-second deficit to leader Laurent Fignon in just 15 miles, ripping through the course at 34 mph and setting a Tour de France time-trial record that stood for 16 years — well into the EPO era. It’s still the third-fastest long time trial ever, surpassing all of Armstrong’s blazing-fast rides. Then there was the incident from the Giro d’Italia in that same year, when LeMond was struggling. In front of a VeloNews reporter, LeMond received three injections — of iron, he insists, nothing illegal. Nevertheless, his performance improved dramatically.
LeMond is launching into a long, complicated analysis of VO2 max, genetics, and aerodynamic handlebars when Kathy interrupts. “I think the one thing that’s indicative that you weren’t on the forefront of EPO is that you fell off the map!” she says. “You were beating your head against the wall!”
To that her husband has nothing to add.
The night before our bike ride I had dinner with the LeMonds at an upscale Italian restaurant in a mall. Afterward we walked over to a Borders, where LeMond beelined straight to the self-help section. “Have you read The Drama of the Gifted Child?” he asked.
LeMond discovered Alice Miller’s 1979 psychoanalytic classic early in therapy, as he began to face his past. Miller argues that the only cure for mental illness is to come to terms with the “unique history of our childhood.” Instead of dealing with his abuse once it stopped, LeMond transferred all of his energy into the bike. “Cycling saved my life. I know it did,” he told me at one point, breaking down. “It allowed me to reinvent myself.”
When I later read The Drama of the Gifted Child, one passage leaps off the page. “The repression of brutal abuse experienced during childhood drives many people to destroy their lives and the lives of others,” Miller writes. “In an unconscious thirst for revenge, they may engage in acts of violence, burning homes and businesses and physically attacking other people, using this destruction to hide the truth from themselves and avoid feeling the despair of the tormented child they once were.”
In those two sentences Miller describes LeMond’s sense of outrage to a T. No longer ashamed of his abuse, LeMond actually seems to feed on it, as it propels him on his endless quest for justice — consequences be damned.
After the trauma of the Landis case last year, LeMond decided to take care of some unfinished business. He hired a private investigator, who located Ron in Nevada. The LeMonds called the man at his job, only to be informed that he had abruptly moved overseas. “I don’t know what I was going to do,” LeMond says; the statute of limitations on sexual abuse had long since expired.
The next person to be held accountable by the new LeMond was Tim Blixseth, founder of the Yellowstone Club, an exclusive resort near Bozeman, Montana. LeMond was among the first investors in the club, in 1999, but later believed Blixseth was misusing the money. LeMond sued in 2006, and this past fall the club settled with him and his co-investors for $38 million.
As the case grew heated, LeMond wondered if Blixseth’s lawyers were working with Armstrong. “I’m dealing with two sociopaths here, Blixseth and Lance,” he tells me. “There’s something creepy about having somebody this obsessed with trying to destroy your credibility.” (Blixseth declined to comment because the case has been reopened.)
This spring LeMond amped up his feud with Armstrong when he brought suit against Trek. (In a case of bad timing, he served notice of the lawsuit three days after the funeral of Trek founder Richard Burke, John’s father.) The case will get ugly. LeMond claims to have tapes of conversations with John Burke that are potentially damaging. Trek shot back with a claim that LeMond offered to take a vow of silence on the doping issue — for $10 million. All indicators point to a knock-down, drag-out fight. “It’s been a crazy, sad part to a cycling career I truly felt blessed with,” LeMond says.
About LeMond and his tumultuous history, Armstrong says: “I’ve seen it all, from when I was a 17-year-old watching ABC Sports and watching him win the Tour by eight seconds. If you asked me to sum it up, I’d say it’s a tragedy, bro. It’s an American tragedy.”
Back at the lemond home after dinner, LeMond goes to return a call from a New York Times reporter in the living room, furnished with exquisite antiques and Native American artifacts. “It’s hard to feel bad for him,” a major figure in U.S. cycling once told me, “living in a mansion with millions in the bank.”
On the other hand, his last few years have been anything but pretty. The Landis case was a personal and public nightmare for him, and he’s made it clear that Armstrong infuriates him. But what he rarely talks about is the fact that the amount of lead in his blood has increased fourfold from just a few years ago. “They did a study; anybody over two micrograms [of lead] is at 60 percent more risk of heart attack or stroke,” he tells me. “Mine’s 20.”
While Armstrong has essentially fled from professional cycling, LeMond is slowly returning to it. He is invited to antidoping summits and greeted like a hero at cycling events. After years of being treated like a crazy uncle in the attic, he’s now being listened to; and if there’s one thing Greg LeMond likes to do, it’s talk. It’s getting on toward 11 pm, and I’ve been here since 8:30 in the morning.
“He’s a great guy, on the inside,” Kathy says when he’s out of the room. “He went through a difficult period, and worked hard on himself. But he never really has changed.”
Just then the LeMonds’ 17-year-old daughter Simone comes home with a classmate named Taylor. She’s the youngest, with her father’s brash outspokenness. “Are you writing about how my dad is five years old?” she asks.
Tonight she’s peeved because her dad won’t let her get a driver’s license. “He says my eyes ‘glass over’ when I’m driving,” she pouts.
There’s already tension in the house because my questions have rekindled LeMond’s anger toward Armstrong and Landis. “I’m gonna hold Floyd accountable for what he did to me,” LeMond vows.
Yester the dog senses the unease in the air. “He’s overkill for us,” Kathy says, “but if someone tries to carjack me, he will jump through the open window at them.”
There are still a few kinks to work out. Yester recently trapped the electrician in his truck; now he slips away from Kathy, jumps up, and snaps at Taylor, nipping her in the side. He doesn’t break the skin, but the girl is terrified; weeping, she flees out the front door.
“Mom!” Simone screams. “I can’t have this! We’ve got to get rid of him!”


----------



## Oli Brooke-White

lookrider said:


> LA was a Grand Tour also ran. Sorry if the facts dismay some of you...


Bahahahaaa! Call him what you like, but "also ran"??? I don't think so...


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## The Weasel

iliveonnitro said:


> I'm in the "don't know" boat, like everyone else, but I feel like he did. I just think he realizes that there is absolutely no evidence out there against him so he believes he can run his mouth with no repercussions.


I'm in the same boat about the GL dope question. I don't think there were any form of reliable testing back then.


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## asgelle

The Weasel said:


> I'm in the same boat about the GL dope question. I don't think there were any form of reliable testing back then.


Ask Gert Jan Theunisse.


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## blackhat

Bry03cobra said:


> Funny how simular the GL supportors sound to the LA and FL supportors........"Lemond couldnt have doped beacause he.....(race result here)", Lance couldnt have doped beacause he (insert excuse here) before he had cancer.
> There are no completley "clean" racer in a dirty sport.


nobody cares how "GL supportors sound to the LA and FL supportors", it's meaningless. There are factual and chronological differences between them that would make the likelihood that Lemond doped <i>via EPO</i> almost nonexistent. and re. that last sentence, are you implying that Hampsten doped?


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## stevesbike

I was at the 1991 Tour, watched Lemond, and talked with him throughout the Alps stages. For those who don't know, Lemond was winning the Tour that year into the Pyrenees, but could not cover all the attacks that went on there. Attacks by guys that could hardly hold his wheel the year before (e.g., Indurain). By 1991 these guys were unafraid to attack over and over again. In retrospect, it was clear what had happened. Lemond simply ran out of gas by the end of the Pyrenees and the peloton had gained its two speeds.

If Lemond was doping, this would not have happened. It simply makes no sense that a guy who was a former champion would have doped and then not doped during the downfall of his career - this is when guys dope the most (ask Zabel and others who felt they were losing a step). 

Finally, Lemond was clearly a more talented and pure stage racer than Armstrong. Armstrong never showed the stage racing potential early in his career. He was not a top climber or time trialer early on-in fact, he was passed by Indurain during a Tour time trial. Merckx - who should know - said of the pre-cancer Armstrong that he would never win the tour. Instead, Armstrong was seen as a potential classics racer, who specialized in a late breakaway, but did not have the all-round abilities of a top stage racer.


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## mohair_chair

Your argument about it not making sense for Lemond to dope doesn't hold water. It makes just as much sense to suggest that Lemond was doping with something, but didn't want to step up to the next generation stuff that everyone else switched to, and that is why he fell behind. 

And of course, is it really a given that Lemond was going to win the 1991 Tour? He barely won in 1989, he barely won in 1990, but because he gets his butt kicked in 1991, it's because everyone else is doping? Give me a break. I'm sure doping played a part, but Lemond just didn't have it any more. How long did he think he could keep racing at that level, forever?

Also, Zabel's doping was in the prime of his career, not the twilight.


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## Bry03cobra

Did anyone "see" Lance dope like Lemond did in front of the velonews editor? Though there is a lot more smoke around LA than GL, how can you be sure Lemond didn't dope? Yet your SURE LA doped. Don't even bring up the old samples that could have been tainted(I don't believe the french were out to get him, but he did have enemies) In the story I posted above, a question about GL came up. GL was so innovative with gear and training, was he as inovative with "Iron Shots"? As far as AH goes, I don't know. But look at all the racers from that era "coming out" I would not be surprised.


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## Bry03cobra

After re-reading the interveiw a few other things stand out. Read the GL phone conversations. He says: "my vo2 max was in the 90's, yours was only in the 80's". Sorry, he sounds extremely bitter and selfcentered. Another selfish thing about him is his parinoia to the point he is putting his family in danger. He has an attack dog living in his home....it even bit his daughter. If my dog bit a family member, he is gone.


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## Dwayne Barry

mohair_chair said:


> Your argument about it not making sense for Lemond to dope doesn't hold water.


It also doesn't jive with the what appears to be the clear advantage that Ferrari gained by doping the Gewiss riders with EPO a couple of years later. If EPO use was already widespread in the early 90's, it wouldn't make sense that in '93-'94 a single team could so comprehensively dominate so many big racers with riders who mostly disappeared in the following the years (i.e. when "everyone" was on EPO and the playing field was leveled again). Additionally many riders who have talked about this period clearly indicate the watershed events were around '93-94 that showed everyone EPO was necessary to compete and that it's use wasn't widespread before then.

It just seems pretty unlikely that the reason for Lemond's dropping off had much if anything to do with EPO as early as '91.


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## iliveonnitro

EPO may not have been approved before some time in 1989, but there are always people to test drugs on humans before being released into the mainstream. Maybe he had a bad encounter while testing the drug.

Either way, I agree with mohair. He may not have wanted to graduate to EPO when it came out, but EPO isn't the only kind of "doping."


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## blackhat

iliveonnitro said:


> EPO may not have been approved before some time in 1989, but there are always people to test drugs on humans before being released into the mainstream. Maybe he had a bad encounter while testing the drug.
> 
> Either way, I agree with mohair. He may not have wanted to graduate to EPO when it came out, but EPO isn't the only kind of "doping."


that's got to be the first time someone's suggested some sort of (non) clinical EPO trials were carried out on lemond. points for creativity but not plausibility. 

as for epo not being the sole doping agent, you're correct, but nothing else then available was anywhere as effective so it's sort of irrelevant.


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## mohair_chair

blackhat said:


> as for epo not being the sole doping agent, you're correct, but nothing else then available was anywhere as effective so it's sort of irrelevant.


It's not irrelevant if something was in use that only the heavy hitters had access to in the late 1980s became available to lesser riders around 1990. Now you have a more level playing field, and the heavy hitters have to work harder to win races. This also causes the heavy hitters to seek out even more effective dope that only they can afford, leading them to EPO in the mid-1990s.

I'm not saying that is what happened, but it is as reasonable an explanation as any for that time period.


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## lookrider

Oli Brooke-White said:


> Bahahahaaa! Call him what you like, but "also ran"??? I don't think so...


Ok, a bunch of DNF's and a 36th place finish in the TdF he finished pre cancer.

It's very descriptive, in addition to the contenders, LA "also ran." He participated for part of the TdF 2 or 3 times and finished in *36th place* once.

If not also ran, what would you call him?

I thought I was being diplomatic....


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## blackhat

mohair_chair said:


> It's not irrelevant if something was in use that only the heavy hitters had access to in the late 1980s became available to lesser riders around 1990. Now you have a more level playing field, and the heavy hitters have to work harder to win races. This also causes the heavy hitters to seek out even more effective dope that only they can afford, leading them to EPO in the mid-1990s.
> 
> I'm not saying that is what happened, but it is as reasonable an explanation as any for that time period.


that's a plausible theory, but it's only that. no one's suggested any game changing method of doping pre-EPO. there was lots of uppers and hgh/steroid use but nothing that worked like EPO. If there were, why would anyone possibly put strychnine and coke into themselves if there were a less toxic choice?


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## stevesbike

I don't think the EPO timeline in some of the posts are accurate. EPO was approved for use in the US in 1989. I don't know if it was approved before this in Europe. By 1990 there were at least 20 mysterious deaths of Dutch and Belgian racers, which were thought to be related to EPO. That suggests that by 1991 it could have been in widespread use.


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## Dwayne Barry

stevesbike said:


> I don't think the EPO timeline in some of the posts are accurate. EPO was approved for use in the US in 1989. I don't know if it was approved before this in Europe. By 1990 there were at least 20 mysterious deaths of Dutch and Belgian racers, which were thought to be related to EPO. That suggests that by 1991 it could have been in widespread use.


About those much talked about deaths, is there any documentation that that is when they occured or that they even occured in the first place? You often hear people talking about them on internet but I don't believe I've ever seen a story that actually named the riders and when they died and what evidence there is they were on EPO.

It still leaves Gewiss in '94 unexplained? And I recall stories of teams/riders scrambling to get EPO after it became known what they were up to. Rijkaert wrote a book about Festina and he was their team doctor in from '93, so might shed some light if anyone has read it.

Maybe I'll ask over at DP there tends to be some pretty informed guys there.


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## stevesbike

I dug up an article from the NYT in 1991 discussing EPO doping among cyclists (google Stamina-Building Drug Linked to Athletes' Deaths) by LAWRENCE M. FISHER, It names some of the cyclists who died. It also sources physicians who believe EPO was filtering into cycling while still in clinical trials (as early as 1986). Apparently numerous companies were trying to get approval for its use in Europe and so quantities of it were readily available to doctors in the know.


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## jim392

stevesbike you talked with Lemond in the 91 tour, who are you? racer, fan friend


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## lookrider

*Here's the article, thanks*



stevesbike said:


> I dug up an article from the NYT in 1991 discussing EPO doping among cyclists (google Stamina-Building Drug Linked to Athletes' Deaths) by LAWRENCE M. FISHER, It names some of the cyclists who died. It also sources physicians who believe EPO was filtering into cycling while still in clinical trials (as early as 1986). Apparently numerous companies were trying to get approval for its use in Europe and so quantities of it were readily available to doctors in the know.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...60&scp=1&sq=lawrence+m.+Fisher+stamina&st=nyt

Stamina-Building Drug Linked to Athletes' Deaths 


LAWRENCE M. FISHER, 
Published: May 19, 1991
A genetically engineered drug that was created for people suffering from kidney failure has become the latest substance to be abused by athletes seeking enhanced stamina and performance. The consequences, in some cases, may be deadly. 

The drug is recombinant erythropoietin, known as EPO, which was developed by the Amgen Corporation and approved by the Food and Drug Administration in 1989 for the treatment of chronic anemia in patients with kidney failure. It was later approved for treatment of AIDS-related anemia. 

But some athletes and trainers have found that the drug can enhance athletic performance by increasing red blood cells, and thus the body's ability to carry oxygen. Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years. 

Drug Called a Factor 


Only anecdotal evidence links EPO to these deaths. But the specialists say they believe the drug was a factor in at least some of the deaths. 

"There is no absolute proof, but there's so much smoke that most of us are convinced," said Dr. Randy Eichner, chief of hematology at the University of Oklahoma. "You just don't get 18 deaths in 4 years, mysteriously, with 10 of them attributed to cardiac problems." 

By increasing the red blood cells, the drug thickens the blood, and normal dehydration in a race concentrates the blood further. 

"Pretty soon you have mud instead of blood; then you have trouble," Dr. Eichner said, adding that the thick, sticky blood can cause clotting, stroke or heart failure. Dark Side of Biotechnology 

The problem with the drug demonstrates a dark side of biotechnology: the difficulties that drug makers face in assuring that their products are used for the intended purpose. 

Recombinant EPO is a genetically engineered copy of a hormone normally produced in the kidney, and is considered safe and effective if used properly. 

There is little question that EPO can enhance an athlete's performance. A study of 15 Swedish athletes by the Stockholm Institute of Gymnastics and Sports found an improvement of nearly 10 percent in aerobic performance after use of the drug. 

Injecting the drug enhances athletes' performance in aerobic endurance events. In addition to bicycle racers, marathon runners and cross-country skiers are suspected of abusing the drug. But no deaths have been reported in sports other than bicycle racing. Drug Is Not Detectable 

Because the drug is a model of a naturally occurring protein, it is not detectable by any existing test. This makes it even more attractive to athletes, who are routinely screened for use of drugs like anabolic steroids or amphetamines. 

In the United States, Amgen limits distribution of the drug to kidney dialysis treatment centers. Sports physicians say the drug is not readily obtainable here but add that it not hard to get in Mexico or Europe. 

Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood 

One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy. A doctor had pronounced him fit to ride in that race, and an autopsy did not specify the cause of death. But in a television interview afterward, his widow said she hoped the death would serve as a warning to other athletes who take the drug. 

Because several companies were simultaneously pursuing approval of EPO in Europe, "the drug was available for clinical trials in large quantities," said Dr. John Adamson, president of the New York Blood Center who is leading the United States trial of Amgen's drug. 

Dr. Adamson said the drug's potential for abuse was soon apparent because athletes were already known to be enhancing performance by having transfusions of extra blood, known as blood doping, or by training at high altitudes, which prompts the body to produce extra red blood cells. 

EPO therapy for kidney-failure patients raises their red blood cell level to 33 percent of blood volume from 25 percent; athletes injecting the drug are increasing their normal level of about 45 percent to 55 to 65 percent. 

With the dehydration that occurs in a long race, the blood concentrates further, to as much as 70 percent. 

An article by Dr. Allan J. Erslev of the Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia in the May 9 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine about the striking benefits of EPO therapy for anemia patients also concluded that its use by athletes, coupled with dehydration, could be "the cause of possible life-threatening thromboses." 

While no deaths have been attributed to the drug in the United States, sports physicians and athletes say they have heard repeatedly about its use at cycling and long-distance running events. 

"I began hearing about EPO two to three years ago through the grapevine in running circles," said John Treacy, a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympic marathon. "The story was there was this new drug that would take over from blood doping, and that it was much better." 

Len Pettyjohn, coach of the Coors Light cycling team, which is competing in the 11-day Tour Du Pont in the Middle Atlantic States this week, said: "We've all heard about EPO. I could only speculate on its use now, but it wouldn't surprise me. I don't think any Americans are using it, but anybody doing something like that is certainly not going to talk about it." Education Program Started 

Jan Gisbers of the Netherlands, coach of the PDM team, which is also competing in the race, said he had not heard of anyone in cycling using the drug. Any rider on his team who used any medical substance without the approval of the team's doctors would be dropped from the team, he said. 

To discourage abuse of the drug, Amgen has begun an educational program, including symposiums for athletes and sports physicians. Amgen, which has an exclusive license to sell the drug in the United States for kidney patients, had total sales of the drug of $304.2 million in the fiscal year ended March 31. 

Ortho Pharmaceuticals also sells the drug for other illnesses in the United States, and it is manufactured and sold by several companies abroad. 

"We heard the stories early on," said Daniel Vapnek, Amgen's senior vice president for research. "We are very concerned about abuse." 

Because EPO cannot be detected in any test, some sports physicians have suggested that Amgen add a biological or chemical "marker" to the drug that would show up in screening. But Mr. Vapnek said this was not feasible. Allergic Reaction Feared 

"The erythropoietin we manufacture and use clinically is very close to the natural protein made by a person's kidney," Mr. Vapnek said. "If you try to modify the protein in any way you have a potential to make it immunogenic," in which case patients' bodies would have an allergic reaction. 

EPO is the second genetically engineered drug known to be abused by athletes. The other is human growth hormone, which was developed by Genentech Inc. for the treatment of dwarfism in children. Athletes began to use the hormone in the 1980's because they believed it promoted the growth of muscle tissue. No deaths have been attributed to growth hormone. 

Genentech has tightly restricted the distribution of growth hormone, and says it believes that it can track more than 90 percent of the patients receiving its drug. 

Lacking a test, or an ironclad restriction of supply, the only solution may be education. Some experts fear this may only increase abuse by making athletes more aware of the drug. Others say that once the truth about the risk of EPO abuse is better known, fewer athletes will be tempted to try it. A recent issue of the Anabolic Reference Update, a newsletter that generally promotes steroid use, concludes, "EPO's risks outweigh benefits." 

Edmund R. Burke, manager of the 1984 United States Olympic cycling team, said: "You have to tell them, 'EPO can do wonders for your aerobic capacity. The problem is, it can also kill you.' "


Correction: May 26, 1991, Sunday 

A picture caption last Sunday with an article about a stamina-building drug linked to athletes' deaths misstated what is known about the death of the Dutch cyclist Johannes Draaijer. An autopsy did not specify the cause, and it is not known conclusively whether he had used the drug.


----------



## Dwayne Barry

Thanks for taking the time to find the article. Informative and certainly seems likely it was being used pre-'94 by at least some people. So what makes Gewiss special? Ferrari putting the whole team on it, or a more complete doping program with "recovery" hormones?


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## Bry03cobra

This conversation has been interesting. It looks possible that Lemond may have had access to EPO well before it became popular. Sounds like cyclists may have been using as early as 88. He states that all of a sudden he couldn't keep up.......maybe the playing field became leveled once EPO became available to lesser riders as well as the wealther ones. My feeling is that he didn't use on a regular basis, but I do think he used. Think about it, would you use something that would make you faster that cannont be tested for??(At the time). Lance is assumed guilty with arguable evidence, Lemond can be accused as well......no real proof in either case.


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## Dwayne Barry

Bry03cobra said:


> Lance is assumed guilty with arguable evidence, Lemond can be accused as well......no real proof in either case.


I think the whole Lemond vs. Armstrong, Lemond fans vs. Armstrong fans is about as silly as it gets but while there may be "no real proof" (whatever that means) there appears to be far more reasons to think Armstrong was doping than there is to think Lemond was, but of course they both may have been doing something. I'd put the chance of them both being clean at about nil.


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## blackhat

Bry03cobra said:


> This conversation has been interesting. It looks possible that Lemond may have had access to EPO well before it became popular. Sounds like cyclists may have been using as early as 88. He states that all of a sudden he couldn't keep up.......maybe the playing field became leveled once EPO became available to lesser riders as well as the wealther ones. My feeling is that he didn't use on a regular basis, but I do think he used. Think about it, would you use something that would make you faster that cannont be tested for??(At the time). Lance is assumed guilty with arguable evidence, Lemond can be accused as well......no real proof in either case.


find me a single former teammate, doctor, friend, mechanic, soigneur, neighbor, yard guy, whatever of lemonds that's actually accused him of anything and Ill stop laughing at your version of reality. until then, you're making it up as you go along.


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## Bry03cobra

blackhat said:


> find me a single former teammate, doctor, friend, mechanic, soigneur, neighbor, yard guy, whatever of lemonds that's actually accused him of anything and Ill stop laughing at your version of reality. until then, you're making it up as you go along.


------------------------
What about the shots in the Giro???? Do you really know what was in those shots??? Your drinking the LeMond koolaid, just as the LA people claim he "never failed a test". I'm a fan of both....just find it hard to believe neither doped.


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## bigpinkt

Bry03cobra said:


> ------------------------
> What about the shots in the Giro???? Do you really know what was in those shots??? Your drinking the LeMond koolaid, just as the LA people claim he "never failed a test". I'm a fan of both....just find it hard to believe neither doped.


As expected you were unable to find anything. Do you really think that Lemond would dope in front of a journalist? Clueless.

Regarding Gewiss, 1993, 94 was when you really saw the combination of a training plan that was tailored around dope. Say what you will about Ferrari the complete programs that he developed were years ahead of their time.


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## lookrider

Bry03cobra said:


> ------------------------
> What about the shots in the Giro???? Do you really know what was in those shots??? Your drinking the LeMond koolaid, just as the LA people claim he "never failed a test". I'm a fan of both....just find it hard to believe neither doped.



No, apparently you're too young to know LeMond's biography. He was competing with top US pro cyclists when he was 15 years old.

He won Tour de l' Avenir by 10 minutes over Robert Millar in 1982 at 21 years old.... He was competing for victory in the TdF at 23 years old coming in 3rd.

*He didn't need EPO to be at the very top of the sport from the beginning of his career. You're engaging in uninformed speculation.*


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## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> As expected you were unable to find anything. Do you really think that Lemond would dope in front of a journalist? Clueless.
> 
> Regarding Gewiss, 1993, 94 was when you really saw the combination of a training plan that was tailored around dope. Say what you will about Ferrari the complete programs that he developed were years ahead of their time.


Yes, as Swart pointed out, when he started on his EPO regimen, his timing was way off and it actually hurt his performance at first.

Ferrari as you've correctly pointed out is a medical expert, MD, and his was doing a lot of experimentation in conjunction with his vast knowledge of physiology and medicine.

He, Conconi, and Ceccini were also on the $hit themselves, and training hard, to confirm their observations....


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## mohair_chair

lookrider said:


> He didn't need EPO to be at the very top of the sport from the beginning of his career.


I think we have established that even if it he wanted to do it, EPO wasn't readily available at the beginning of his career. So you're not saying a whole lot. And before you get too carried away, keep in mind that Lemond is just a man, not a god. Whether he doped or he didn't dope is all uninformed speculation. You don't know.


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## Bry03cobra

mohair_chair said:


> I think we have established that even if it he wanted to do it, EPO wasn't readily available at the beginning of his career. So you're not saying a whole lot. And before you get too carried away, keep in mind that Lemond is just a man, not a god. Whether he doped or he didn't dope is all uninformed speculation. You don't know.


------------------------
Thank you
This is point I was trying to make. The Lemond backers tend to think Greg can do no wrong. I stated before, there is more speculation around Lance but to think Lemond is squeeky clean is foolish. He was a great cyclist in his era, as was Lance. Before cancer Lance did show signs of what was to come. He is the only rider to win the 3 philly races (earning a 1 million dollar bonus). Post cancer LA just trained for TDF, whereas Lemond trained for the season. Lemond had a better career, Lance had a better TDF record. Both great american cyclists. THERE IS NO PROOF THE EITHER MAN RODE CLEAN.


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## blackhat

Bry03cobra said:


> ------------------------
> THERE IS NO PROOF THE EITHER MAN RODE CLEAN.



what you're both choosing to ignore is that there's a lot of evidence one didn't ride clean, while afaik no evidence the other didn't.


----------



## mohair_chair

blackhat said:


> what you're both choosing to ignore is that there's a lot of evidence one didn't ride clean, while afaik no evidence the other didn't.


Actually, I have made no claims about Lemond either way. I don't know if he doped or not. But I do know that he raced in an era where it was much harder to amass evidence of doping. They didn't have tests to detect a lot of stuff, and they did a fraction of the tests they do now, if that much. So it's an apples to oranges comparison to put one rider from the modern era up against another from 25 years ago. It's like comparing George Washington's foreign policy to George W. Bush's. You can't, because the world is a far different place.


----------



## blackhat

mohair_chair said:


> Actually, I have made no claims about Lemond either way. I don't know if he doped or not. But I do know that he raced in an era where it was much harder to amass evidence of doping. They didn't have tests to detect a lot of stuff, and they did a fraction of the tests they do now, if that much. So it's an apples to oranges comparison to put one rider from the modern era up against another from 25 years ago. It's like comparing George Washington's foreign policy to George W. Bush's. You can't, because the world is a far different place.



so did Hampsten.


----------



## TheDon

blackhat said:


> so did Hampsten.


So did roche, and there is good evidence he doped back in 87. Epo was introduced with Moser back in 84.


----------



## bigpinkt

TheDon said:


> Epo was introduced with Moser back in 84.


No, Moser used Blood doping. EPO was not available yet


----------



## harlond

blackhat said:


> what you're both choosing to ignore is that there's a lot of evidence one didn't ride clean, while afaik no evidence the other didn't.


Here's what I don't understand. The anti-doping zealots seem comfortable with convicting some riders on the basis of mere suspicion. Indeed, mere victory is enough for many to conclude the athlete must be doping. On that basis, there would seem to be enough reason to doubt Lemond, with his three iron shots, his comeback from near-death, his 1989 TT ridden at an ungodly and pretty much unequaled-since pace. Yet it's the zealots here defending him and insisting that suspicion is just not enough. My own standard demands hard evidence, so Lemond gets a pass, but I'm a bit surprised to find the inquisitorial crowd over here in my neck of the woods.


----------



## stevesbike

1. there's no evidence that Lemond doped during or prior to his 1986 Tour victory. His performance was consistent with what he was showing as a junior. That is, there was no jump in performance. Estimates put EPO at 15% increased performance - that's not subtle. 

2. The pattern of Lemond's performance following his hunting accident in 1987 does not fit what one would expect had he doped. Lemond was never able to perform consistently at the same level after his accident. If he was suddenly getting the benefits of PEDs you'd expect a different pattern. 


If you watched the 1990 tour, you might recall a certain Spaniard holding on to dear life on Lemond's wheel up to Luz Ardiden. It was Indurain, who came around Lemond to win the stage (Lemond didn't contest it). Indurain. who was only 3 years younger than Lemond, finished the 89 tour 31 minutes behind Lemond and the 1990 tour 13 minutes behind Lemond, then beat Lemond by 13 minutes in the 91 tour. That's the pattern you'd expect with EPO...


----------



## mohair_chair

stevesbike said:


> That's the pattern you'd expect with EPO...


If you watched the 1996 Tour, you saw Bjarne Riis win while on EPO. Riis has admitted to this fact. The very next year, Riis finished over 26 minutes behind. That seems strangely reminiscent of Lemond in 1990-91.

You aren't going to prove that Lemond was or wasn't a doper through statistics or case studies. I'm guessing only he knows for sure.


----------



## bigpinkt

harlond said:


> Here's what I don't understand. The anti-doping zealots seem comfortable with convicting some riders on the basis of mere suspicion. Indeed, mere victory is enough for many to conclude the athlete must be doping. On that basis, there would seem to be enough reason to doubt Lemond, with his three iron shots, his comeback from near-death, his 1989 TT ridden at an ungodly and pretty much unequaled-since pace. Yet it's the zealots here defending him and insisting that suspicion is just not enough. My own standard demands hard evidence, so Lemond gets a pass, but I'm a bit surprised to find the inquisitorial crowd over here in my neck of the woods.


You are only looking at a small portion of the evidence.

Lemond does not have former teammates and support staff saying that he doped (in fact the opposite is true
Lemonds team was not caught dumping used dope bags 
Lemond did not employ the sports most famous convicted doping doctor
Lemond did not drop out of his first three tours, he finished 3rd, 2nd and first
Lemond did not admit to using dope to a room full of people
Lemond did not test positive for cortisone and manufacture a back dated TUE


Does anyone really think that Lemond, or any other rider, would take dope in front of a reporter? If the iron shot are the best you can do then your case is weak
'


----------



## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> You are only looking at a small portion of the evidence.
> 
> Lemond does not have former teammates and support staff saying that he doped (in fact the opposite is true
> Lemonds team was not caught dumping used dope bags
> Lemond did not employ the sports most famous convicted doping doctor
> Lemond did not drop out of his first three tours, he finished 3rd, 2nd and first
> Lemond did not admit to using dope to a room full of people
> Lemond did not test positive for cortisone and manufacture a back dated TUE
> 
> 
> Does anyone really think that Lemond, or any other rider, would take dope in front of a reporter? If the iron shot are the best you can do then your case is weak
> '


Five to ten years from now LA will just be a larger Riis. Floyd or someone else will just become sick of the deification of LA and will sell the story. That or LA will just go completely off the deep end with his serial dating/marriage thing like his mom. He'll be a laughingstock at that point and no one will be in fear of him in the sport...

No group of people can keep a secret forever, and it's already almost completely out of the bag. Somebody's going to come out and fill in the blanks when they either need the money, or don't need the money and are completely out of the sport. LA has made too many enemies...

It'll be the guy with the refrigerated panniers. LMAO


----------



## bigpinkt

lookrider said:


> Five to ten years from now LA will just be a larger Riis. Floyd or someone else will just become sick of the deification of LA and will sell the story.


Or Tyler will tell the story of the Alps training camps....now that Wonder boy and Haven had a little fling he may be more motivated to tell the truth


----------



## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> Or Tyler will tell the story of the Alps training camps....now that Wonder boy and Haven had a little fling he may be more motivated to tell the truth


Jeez, I forgot all about Hamilton. What is this fling you've mentioned? Wonder boy?


----------



## bigpinkt

lookrider said:


> Jeez, I forgot all about Hamilton. What is this fling you've mentioned? Wonder boy?


 he does not only go after blonds who look like his mother


----------



## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> he does not only go after blonds who look like his mother


Wow, he really is a sociopath.......


----------



## harlond

bigpinkt said:


> You are only looking at a small portion of the evidence.
> 
> Lemond does not have former teammates and support staff saying that he doped (in fact the opposite is true
> Lemonds team was not caught dumping used dope bags
> Lemond did not employ the sports most famous convicted doping doctor
> Lemond did not drop out of his first three tours, he finished 3rd, 2nd and first
> Lemond did not admit to using dope to a room full of people
> Lemond did not test positive for cortisone and manufacture a back dated TUE
> 
> 
> Does anyone really think that Lemond, or any other rider, would take dope in front of a reporter? If the iron shot are the best you can do then your case is weak
> '


You're missing (and also proving) my point. I'm not trying to prove Lemond doped and I didn't say a word about Armstrong. I'm asking why, just because it's Lemond, you have suddenly become a hard evidence hardliner when you have never been one before.


----------



## blackhat

harlond said:


> You're missing (and also proving) my point. I'm not trying to prove Lemond doped and I didn't say a word about Armstrong. I'm asking why, just because it's Lemond, you have suddenly become a hard evidence hardliner when you have never been one before.



what about the following differences confounds you?
<i>Lemond does not have former teammates and support staff saying that he doped (in fact the opposite is true
Lemonds team was not caught dumping used dope bags
Lemond did not employ the sports most famous convicted doping doctor
Lemond did not drop out of his first three tours, he finished 3rd, 2nd and first
Lemond did not admit to using dope to a room full of people
Lemond did not test positive for cortisone and manufacture a back dated TUE

</i><br>

Those are all factual differences between GL and LA. Speaking only for myself, I'm of the opinion GL wasn't doping <i>via EPO</i> because there's absolutely no evidence that he was. You can't say that about LA.


----------



## bigpinkt

harlond said:


> You're missing (and also proving) my point. I'm not trying to prove Lemond doped and I didn't say a word about Armstrong. I'm asking why, just because it's Lemond, you have suddenly become a hard evidence hardliner when you have never been one before.


It appears you are missing the point. There is zero evidence, hard, soft, circumstantial, that lemond doped.... none. If you could provide any evidence then I would consider it but you have nothing. No rumor, no fact....nothing.


----------



## harlond

blackhat said:


> what about the following differences confounds you?


Nothing.


blackhat said:


> Those are all factual differences between GL and LA. Speaking only for myself, I'm of the opinion GL wasn't doping <i>via EPO</i> because there's absolutely no evidence that he was. You can't say that about LA.


I wasn't speaking about LA at all. If you don't perceive a difference in the approach some people are taking to defense of Lemond and their usual approach to suspected dopers, that's fine, but I do.



bigpinkt said:


> It appears you are missing the point. There is zero evidence, hard, soft, circumstantial, that lemond doped.... none. If you could provide any evidence then I would consider it but you have nothing. No rumor, no fact....nothing.


I wasn't suggesting Lemond was doping, as I've made clear. I try to exclude mere suspicion and rumor from my judgments on this issue. Your posts about Haven Hamilton suggest the same might not be true of you.


----------



## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> It appears you are missing the point. There is zero evidence, hard, soft, circumstantial, that lemond doped.... none. If you could provide any evidence then I would consider it but you have nothing. No rumor, no fact....nothing.


The funny, well actually it's kind of a sad thing is, if LA is not exposed, and he's running for office 5 or 10 years down the line, and you point out that he's a fraud, people will look at you like you're nuts. Then they'll ask you, why do you hate LA? Why do you hate America? LMAO. At that point your only option is to crack a beer open.


----------



## mohair_chair

lookrider said:


> Wow, he really is a sociopath.......


He's also a "super responder." LMAO! You actually buy this ****? How would bigpinkt know about any affair LA had? Seriously. Ask the question, and demand a reasonable answer. He's got you hook, line, and sinker.


----------



## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> He's also a "super responder." LMAO! .


Just because you do not understand something doesn't mean it is not not true. If you ask any clinical trails researcher they will tell you the people react differently to different drugs. Some respond, some do not.... how is that so hard to understand?

I have already posted the ****** study

Here is a study discussing super responders in Hep C
http://www.roche.com/inv-update-2006-10-27b
Schizophrenia
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/565719

Google is your friend.


----------



## bigpinkt

harlond said:


> Nothing.
> If you don't perceive a difference in the approach some people are taking to defense of Lemond and their usual approach to suspected dopers, that's fine, but I do.


I think the question is far more clear if posed in the converse, why do those who protect the myth despite mountains of information to the contrary have no problem going after Greg even though there is nothing?

If there was any evidence that Greg doped I would have no problem exploring it, but there is not so I don't.


----------



## asgelle

Bry03cobra said:


> ------------------------
> ThankHe is the only rider to win the 3 philly races (earning a 1 million dollar bonus).


A) The bonus was only offered one year. B) It's amazing what a fraction of one million dollars can buy.


----------



## mohair_chair

So by those studies, are you saying that Lance a super responder to Hep C or ******? You know, in your best medical opinion? That will certainly come in handy should he hook up with Pamela Anderson. She's got Hep C, and well, the ****** may come in handy too.

I don't know how you can read two studies about drugs and apply that to Lance Armstrong. I mean, even for you, that's a stretch. I don't want to question your extensive medical training, and years of study in the field, but even a real doctor wouldn't diagnose a patient he hasn't seen. You have ZERO knowledge of how Lance responds to anything, so it's a FLAT OUT LIE to say he is a super responder. You have absolutely no basis for that finding. NONE.


----------



## lookrider

mohair_chair said:


> So by those studies, are you saying that Lance a super responder to Hep C or ******? You know, in your best medical opinion? That will certainly come in handy should he hook up with Pamela Anderson. She's got Hep C, and well, the ****** may come in handy too.
> 
> I don't know how you can read two studies about drugs and apply that to Lance Armstrong. I mean, even for you, that's a stretch. I don't want to question your extensive medical training, and years of study in the field, but even a real doctor wouldn't diagnose a patient he hasn't seen. You have ZERO knowledge of how Lance responds to anything, so it's a FLAT OUT LIE to say he is a super responder. You have absolutely no basis for that finding. NONE.


I believe bigpinkt is in a position to know......

I actually thought LA was pretty nuts before this new revelation, which seems in line with his previous behavior and confirms my opinion...

Don't worry, Tyler will clear it all up soon......

Bjarne Riis, Marion Jones, Lance Arms.........

It is tragic, but you know, you make your bed and all.......


----------



## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> So by those studies, are you saying that Lance a super responder to Hep C or ******? You know, in your best medical opinion? That will certainly come in handy should he hook up with Pamela Anderson. She's got Hep C, and well, the ****** may come in handy too.
> 
> I don't know how you can read two studies about drugs and apply that to Lance Armstrong. I mean, even for you, that's a stretch. I don't want to question your extensive medical training, and years of study in the field, but even a real doctor wouldn't diagnose a patient he hasn't seen. You have ZERO knowledge of how Lance responds to anything, so it's a FLAT OUT LIE to say he is a super responder. You have absolutely no basis for that finding. NONE.


As expected, what you do not understand you criticize. You questioned the term, I provide evidence that it is common term in medical research. 

The fact is that some riders responded better to EPO then others. EPO/Blood doping enables the body to deliver more oxygen to the muscles. A rider with denser muscle mass, while remaining light, will benefit greater then a pure climber with little muscle mass. You look at the disappearance of the pure climber, The 120 pound guy without an ounce of muscle. As the EPO era took hold you saw the emergence of a different kind of Grand Tour winner. Riis, Bugno, Indurain, Armstrong. All tour also rans/drop outs who suddenly became super competitive with the use of EPO. Add Pantani to this list, his soigner said that Marco was the most densely muscled rider he had ever worked on. Once you had the 50% limit introduced this also benefited some riders over others. A rider a naturally low Hct, like Lance's 41%, could benefit more then a rider with a natural 46%.

Part of the genius of Ferrari was that he combined EPO with muscle building steroids and watt meters to build the perfect rider. The Gewiss domination was the first evidence of his superior ability to prepare riders, Lance was the perfection of his methods.


----------



## mohair_chair

Q: How can you make a medical diagnosis without:

1. Having any medical training whatsoever
2. Having access to the patient
3. Having access to the patient's medical history

A: You can't

Just because you desperately want it to be so, doesn't make it so. You have ZERO basis for making this claim. ZERO. It is absolutely groundless, like many of your claims. Now that you've gone to salacious claims of affairs, of which you have ZERO first hand knowledge, your posts have become completely comical. What are you, a doctor or a tabloid reporter? LMAO!


----------



## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> Q: How can you make a medical diagnosis without:
> 
> 1. Having any medical training whatsoever
> 2. Having access to the patient
> 3. Having access to the patient's medical history
> 
> A: You can't
> 
> Just because you desperately want it to be so, doesn't make it so. You have ZERO basis for making this claim. ZERO. It is absolutely groundless, like many of your claims. Now that you've gone to salacious claims of affairs, of which you have ZERO first hand knowledge, your posts have become completely comical. What are you, a doctor or a tabloid reporter? LMAO!


Just becuase you wish it were not true does not mean it isn't. If there is evidence that what I am writing is incorrect then please provide it. If your only response is to say that I am not a doctor then it is clear you do not have anything.

There are plenty of cycling writers who have written well on this topic, none were doctors. If you think that doping in cycling can only be understood, and commented on, by doctors then you clearly do not understand the issue. I am not the only person to make these claims, Rendell, Walsh, Lindsy. Cyclesport and Cyclismag have also done plenty of writing that mirrors what I have written none of it by doctors. Ashaden and Damsgaard, both doctors, have said the exact things that I have written. 

Perhaps you could do some research and provide some counter evidence? If I am wrong and EPO does not help some more then others I would love to see something that shows this. If I am wrong and you are able to show that super responders do not exist then please show me.


----------



## mohair_chair

bigpinkt said:


> If your only response is to say that I am not a doctor then it is clear you do not have anything.


You aren't a doctor, and you don't have anything. That's a given.

Do you understand how this works? YOU are the one making the claim. YOU need to provide the evidence. You can't just run around saying crazy things and then dare people to prove you wrong. If you make a wild claim, YOU have to back it up. Providing unrelated studies and adding your personal thoughts does not count as evidence. In your own mind, maybe. In the real world, sorry, no.

Provide evidence that Lance is a super responder to EPO. It's a simple thing. Just provide the evidence you have that shows conclusively and physiologically, that Lance is a super responder. Just to be clear, evidence that super responders exist is not the same thing as evidence that Lance is one. All the reports and studies in the world are meaningless <u>if they weren't done on Lance Armstrong.</u>. Hell, I now proclaim Greg Lemond as a super responder to iron shots. Prove me wrong!

Because there is no way you could ever provide evidence, your claim is pure rubbish.


----------



## bigpinkt

As expected, nothing. I have given you plenty of sources you are just choose to ignore them.

Go read Lance to Landis, The death of Marco Pantani, . Pay Attention to the interviews with Dr. Ashaden regarding body types and EPO. Read Cyclesport's article, "The death of the climber". All will talk about how riders with Lance's body type recognize larger improvements from EPO. Google Damsgaard. If you really want to talk intelligently on the subject do some research instead of just ranting. you can see from the files introduced in Dr Ferrari's trial that that he was able to raise his Hct from 41 to 48.5. Something sure to help and not possible without dope.

Perhaps you figure because you are not a Dr. you are not allowed to understand the subject? Don't worry, I will not hold that against you.

The idea that there is a study of Lances response to EPO is absurd, but 3 DNF in the tour, 1 middle of the pack finish, followed by 7 straight wins? I am sure that is from high cadence alone.


----------



## mohair_chair

So you read a lot of books, none of which was written by a doctor who did a study on Lance Armstrong. I'm sure it's all wonderful reading, but it doesn't count as evidence that Lance is a super responder to EPO.

Okay, I'll humor you for a second. Let's pretend Lance is a super responder to EPO. Several people say Lance was doing EPO pre-cancer. That was when he had 3 DNF in the tour, and 1 middle of the pack finish. Is that the record of a super responder? You don't even try to explain this. You go straight to 7 straight wins as proof. Well sorry, if Lance was on EPO pre-cancer, and you have said many times that you believe he was, why wasn't he a super responder then? You don't get to pick and choose your "evidence."

Your claim is rubbish and groundless.


----------



## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> So you read a lot of books, none of which was written by a doctor who did a study on Lance Armstrong. I'm sure it's all wonderful reading, but it doesn't count as evidence that Lance is a super responder to EPO.
> 
> Okay, I'll humor you for a second. Let's pretend Lance is a super responder to EPO. Several people say Lance was doing EPO pre-cancer. That was when he had 3 DNF in the tour, and 1 middle of the pack finish. Is that the record of a super responder? You don't even try to explain this. You go straight to 7 straight wins as proof. Well sorry, if Lance was on EPO pre-cancer, and you have said many times that you believe he was, why wasn't he a super responder then? You don't get to pick and choose your "evidence."
> 
> Your claim is rubbish and groundless.


If you read the books they you would know that there are plenty of interviews with Doctors in them. It is their opinions that I reference not the writers. You should note that that I have written that it is not only Lance that benefited to a greater extent then others. I have listed a bunch of riders. Ulrich certainly did as well....perhaps even more so then Lance.

Lance' relationship with EPO began in 1995, Ferrari followed shortly afterward. This corresponded with a significant jump in his palmeres, In the next two years he won San Sebastian (a race he finished last in the year before) Won stages in the tour and finally finished the Tour, Won La Felche Wallone, the same race he watched Ferrari guided Gewiss ride away from him in. He was also suddenly competitive in the classics, instead of struggle to hang on.

Contrast this to the pre-epo tour winners....Fignon, Lemond, Merckx, Hinault all showed their Tour ability very early in their careers.


----------



## Bry03cobra

bigpinkt said:


> Lance' relationship with EPO began in 1995, Ferrari followed shortly afterward. This corresponded with a significant jump in his palmeres, In the next two years he won San Sebastian (a race he finished last in the year before) Won stages in the tour and finally finished the Tour, Won La Felche Wallone, the same race he watched Ferrari guided Gewiss ride away from him in. He was also suddenly competitive in the classics, instead of struggle to hang on.
> 
> Contrast this to the pre-epo tour winners....Fignon, Lemond, Merckx, Hinault all showed their Tour ability very early in their careers.


----------------------
You said above that LA started EPO in 95. So you just proved that LA was clean. He won the national and world championships in 93. Early success, just as the "god" Lemond did. Doesn't LA produce a unusually low amount of lactic acid?? Guess that was due to PED's as well. I know the studies that testicular cancer can be due to EPO use...shouldn't there be a bunch of pro cyclists 1 ballin then??? Compairing LA to those 4 "clean" riders doesn't hold water, didnt Merckx fail 2 drug tests??? 
---------------------
Funny how when a post about "possible" drug use by Lemond comes up, the talk goes to LA doped. Not on Lemonds innocence.


----------



## bigpinkt

Bry03cobra said:


> ----------------------
> You said above that LA started EPO in 95. So you just proved that LA was clean. He won the national and world championships in 93. Early success, just as the "god" Lemond did. Doesn't LA produce a unusually low amount of lactic acid?? Guess that was due to PED's as well. I know the studies that testicular cancer can be due to EPO use...shouldn't there be a bunch of pro cyclists 1 ballin then??? Compairing LA to those 4 "clean" riders doesn't hold water, didnt Merckx fail 2 drug tests???
> ---------------------
> Funny how when a post about "possible" drug use by Lemond comes up, the talk goes to LA doped. Not on Lemonds innocence.


Lemond stood on the podium of his first three tours, Lance dropped out of the first three he rode....you can't see the difference? On a level playing field Lance would have been a very good, if not great, classics rider. No way he would have won 7 tours. EPO does not cause testicular cancer, however there are studies that Cortisone use can increase the possiblity of it. 

My comparison to the other riders was that prior to EPO riders showed promise in the Tour early in their careers, it was not a comment on weather or not they were clean. In the past it was very common for young riders to win, in the last 15 years Ulrich is the only one.

Historically, and even more so today, the Tour has been a test of strength. The strongest rider with the biggest engine wins. In the past this meant the most naturally gifted, hence their form was show early in their career. More recently it means the best medical program. While there has always been doping the sophistication of the methods and products used in the last 15 years is far greater then what was used in the 70's and 80's, thus the choice to use or not use became the choice to be a pro or not.


----------



## harlond

bigpinkt said:


> I think the question is far more clear if posed in the converse, why do those who protect the myth despite mountains of information to the contrary have no problem going after Greg even though there is nothing?
> 
> If there was any evidence that Greg doped I would have no problem exploring it, but there is not so I don't.


From your responses to mohair, it is clear that you are not a super responder to logic. I'll repeat, I am not protecting any LA myth, and in fact, as I have previously said, I think he doped. My question to you had nothing to do with LA, and you have not answered it yet.

Let's hear more about your evidence-based approach to the Haven Hamilton rumor you've started here.


----------



## Bry03cobra

Lance was only 2 years older than Lemond was at their first tour wins (25 & 27).
Cancer took 2 years from his career, look at those seasons where Lance dropped out, he had a seriously full race schedule. During the 7 tour run, he really only raced the tour. Lance won stages of the TDF and paris-nice pre-cancer. He also won the overall at the tour dupont. I would guess one would have trouble finishing the tour in 97 when cancer is growing in your body.....

And I think Lance did dope.....I also beleive Lemond did as well/


----------



## safetyguy

OK So I am a nobody poster but consider the following:

EPO is not the only way to increase FTP. 

Take any rider who has functional threshold power of ~7w/kg. BTW this is WORLD class power and anyone with this kind of FTP is a pro and can win any one day pro race and even be world champion on any given day.

Now cut 5-6% off his body weight – with no loss of power and his FTP goes to ~7.35w/kg – this rider goes from an also ran to the winner of the tour. In a three week tour this rider will simply ride away from any and all competition.

I don’t really care who did or didn’t dope – it just doesn’t matter because all riders at the pro level – are basically using the same methods to train and gain an advantage. So in one era it is blood doping & Testosterone (and its derivatives), then EPO, then HGH (no test yet btw, hmmmmm) and soon to come re-engineered DNA.

And for anyone reading this why did the acceptable level for HCT get set at 50% - given that an average for endurance athletes is about 41-43% tops? Another hmmmm….

Bonus question - if it all comes down to genetics – why race at all – just do a couple of tests and who ever has the best genetics award them the yellow jersey and be done with the whole thing.


----------



## blackhat

safetyguy said:


> OK So I am a nobody poster but consider the following:
> 
> EPO is not the only way to increase FTP.
> 
> Take any rider who has functional threshold power of ~7w/kg. BTW this is WORLD class power and anyone with this kind of FTP is a pro and can win any one day pro race and even be world champion on any given day.
> 
> Now cut 5-6% off his body weight – with no loss of power and his FTP goes to ~7.35w/kg – this rider goes from an also ran to the winner of the tour. In a three week tour this rider will simply ride away from any and all competition.
> 
> I don’t really care who did or didn’t dope – it just doesn’t matter because all riders at the pro level – are basically using the same methods to train and gain an advantage. So in one era it is blood doping & Testosterone (and its derivatives), then EPO, then HGH (no test yet btw, hmmmmm) and soon to come re-engineered DNA.
> 
> And for anyone reading this why did the acceptable level for HCT get set at 50% - given that an average for endurance athletes is about 41-43% tops? Another hmmmm….
> 
> Bonus question - if it all comes down to genetics – why race at all – just do a couple of tests and who ever has the best genetics award them the yellow jersey and be done with the whole thing.



nice post.


----------



## asgelle

safetyguy said:


> And for anyone reading this why did the acceptable level for HCT get set at 50% - given that an average for endurance athletes is about 41-43% tops?


Because half the field would test out higher than 43%?


----------



## Under ACrookedSky

Bry03cobra said:


> ----------------------
> You said above that LA started EPO in 95. So you just proved that LA was clean. He won the national and world championships in 93. Early success, just as the "god" Lemond did. Doesn't LA produce a unusually low amount of lactic acid?? Guess that was due to PED's as well. I know the studies that testicular cancer can be due to EPO use...shouldn't there be a bunch of pro cyclists 1 ballin then??? Compairing LA to those 4 "clean" riders doesn't hold water, didnt Merckx fail 2 drug tests???
> ---------------------
> Funny how when a post about "possible" drug use by Lemond comes up, the talk goes to LA doped. Not on Lemonds innocence.


I agree. It is perfectly normal for a rider who was never able to climb or time trial at the euro-level to hire the best dope doctor, Dr. Ferrari, and then climb better than the best climber of the era, Pantani, and time trial better than the best time trialist of the era, Indurain. There is nothing suspicious about that. Armstrong was just a late bloomer.  

P.S. You might want to update your knowledge of the role lactic acid plays in performance. Your using that as an argument indicates that you are stuck in the 80s and early 90s view of lactic acid as a bad thing.


----------



## bigpinkt

harlond said:


> My question to you had nothing to do with LA, and you have not answered it yet.


I answered your question, you chose to ignore my answer. 



Bry03cobra said:


> Lance was only 2 years older than Lemond was at their first tour wins (25 & 27).
> Cancer took 2 years from his career, look at those seasons where Lance dropped out, he had a seriously full race schedule. During the 7 tour run, he really only raced the tour. Lance won stages of the TDF and paris-nice pre-cancer. He also won the overall at the tour dupont. I would guess one would have trouble finishing the tour in 97 when cancer is growing in your body.....
> 
> And I think Lance did dope.....I also beleive Lemond did as well/


Lance dropped out of his first 3 tours, Lemond was on the podium of his first three. There was nothing in his early years that pointed to winning the tour. "Late Bloomers" are a new thing in the GT world. The Tour du Pont? You are joking right? Lance did not ride the 97 tour.


----------



## bigpinkt

asgelle said:


> Because half the field would test out higher than 43%?


Still pedaling that myth?


----------



## Bry03cobra

Still its about LA and I still haven't heard why Lemond receives "shots" and there is no suspicion that he doped. The argument that nobody saw him is weak. GL is an extremely parinoid and untrusting person. I don't think he trusted anyone to know. LA is arrogant and powerful, he felt that any accusations he will defeat....which he has so far.


----------



## bigpinkt

Bry03cobra said:


> Still its about LA and I still haven't heard why Lemond receives "shots" and there is no suspicion that he doped. The argument that nobody saw him is weak. GL is an extremely parinoid and untrusting person. I don't think he trusted anyone to know. LA is arrogant and powerful, he felt that any accusations he will defeat....which he has so far.


You may want to do a tiny bit of research before you write. 

Greg has talked about the Iron shots, which were common and legal, and he took them in front of a journalist. The idea that any rider would dope in front of a journalist is absurd. You clearly have never met Greg or know him if you think he is untrusting. He is far too trusting and it has consistently got him in trouble.


----------



## Under ACrookedSky

Bry03cobra said:


> Still its about LA and I still haven't heard why Lemond receives "shots" and there is no suspicion that he doped. The argument that nobody saw him is weak. GL is an extremely parinoid and untrusting person. I don't think he trusted anyone to know. LA is arrogant and powerful, he felt that any accusations he will defeat....which he has so far.


If you can come up with any evidence at all that Lemond doped then people would be perfectly willing to believe. There have not been many clean riders in the history of the sport, so it is not like it would be a surprise. There just has not been any evidence so far. Heck, I think it was Bernhard Tapie who said the only one on his team who he could be sure was not doping was Lemond. Lemond's teammates have also said Lemond was an oddball who was not a doping rider. You find similar thoughts expressed about riders of that era like Charly Mottet and Andy Hampsten.

It was also a different era. The dope of choice was steroids. Steroids help you reach your potential faster and easier, but they don't change your potential. EPO changed that because it did raise your potential. Willy Voet that in his book. As soon as use of EPO became the norm, the careers of riders like Lemond, Mottet, Hampsten, and Hooydonck went into rapid decline. If all these guys were dopers then why didn't they switch to new stuff? A Lemond on EPO would have crushed Indurain.


----------



## harlond

bigpinkt said:


> I answered your question, you chose to ignore my answer.


I disagree. Your turn.


----------



## blackhat

harlond said:


> I disagree. Your turn.


what's your question? if you're still looking for an answer to you original navel gazing post about the "inquisitorial crowd" and "zealots" in your "neck of the woods" I think that's been answered at length.


----------



## Racer C

Maybe Lemond on EPO did crush Indurain...1990 Tour results, Lemond 1st, Indurain 10th...Just Kidding


----------



## aliensporebomb

*Um...*



Bry03cobra said:


> This conversation has been interesting. It looks possible that Lemond may have had access to EPO well before it became popular. Sounds like cyclists may have been using as early as 88. He states that all of a sudden he couldn't keep up.......maybe the playing field became leveled once EPO became available to lesser riders as well as the wealther ones. My feeling is that he didn't use on a regular basis, but I do think he used. Think about it, would you use something that would make you faster that cannont be tested for??(At the time). Lance is assumed guilty with arguable evidence, Lemond can be accused as well......no real proof in either case.


Maybe it's just me but I get the feeling a lot of riders left Lemond out in the cold
regarding EPO knowing he'd never go for it and it was like everyone in the tour was
in on the deal except Greg. And he got dropped.


----------



## aclinjury

lol I have to admit, it's funny reading this thread today, almost a decade later.
Laugh is right.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti

Wow, it is funny to look back at the hold lance had on the fake narrative 

.....and he is trying to do it again


----------



## Jackhammer

*Lance's benefactor WJC*

What's the odds he throws Bill Clinton under the bus to the Trump DOJ to save his remaining fortune?


----------



## Jackhammer




----------



## aclinjury

Jackhammer,
could you upload a higher resolution version? These are hard to read


----------



## Jackhammer

Yeah, sorry, I'm I/T illiterate. I'll try to get a better version later.


----------



## Jackhammer




----------



## Jackhammer




----------



## David Loving

You got that right, Bocephus. They all DO dope. It's foolish to believe otherwise. Besides, if you accept the fact they all dope, cycling is just like professional wrestling, full of drama and good vs evil! That's entertainment!


----------



## David Loving

I told you so; this is just like WWW wrestling. Drama, good and evil, and all that.


----------



## GlobalGuy

Of course he used PEDs. They all did. And long before his generation. 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'/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; 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location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = {  close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, innerHeight: 480, innerWidth: 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>


----------



## Jackhammer

Jackhammer said:


> View attachment 321636
> View attachment 321637





GlobalGuy said:


> Of course he used PEDs. They all did. And long before his generation. At times they used substances or included them that were useless but they though they were performance enhancing. <script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https??\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? 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window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one 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(!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; 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isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); 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}, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>


Negative, there's no evidence.


----------



## GlobalGuy

Jackhammer said:


> Negative, there's no evidence.


Yes, they did. Documented history is your friend. Google is one of your friends. Amphetamines alone go back to about as far back as you want to go. 

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var pb_whitelist = ["verizonwireless.com","foxnews.com","www.wunderground.com","wellsfargo.com","tvguide.com","metacritic.com","usaa.com","www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov","tickets.amtrak.com","creditscorecard.com","www.discovercard.com","nbc.com","linkedin.com","google","www.gmail.com","www.pinterest.com","www.youtube.com","www.facebook.com","search.yahoo.com","chrome://newtab","www.food.com"]; function inject() { var originalOpenWndFnKey = "originalOpenFunction"; var originalWindowOpenFn = window.open; var originalCreateElementFn = document.createElement; var originalAppendChildFn = HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild; var originalCreateEventFn = document.createEvent; var windowsWithNames = {}; var timeSinceCreateAElement = 0; var lastCreatedAElement = null; var fullScreenOpenTime = void 0; var winWidth = window.innerWidth; var winHeight = window.innerHeight; var abd = false; var lastBlockTime = void 0; var parentOrigin = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer || window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https??\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one second */) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a it was blured'; generatedWindow.close(); blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); } else { originalWndBlurFn(); } }; })(); } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// } else { (function () { // (useOriginalOpenWnd == false) var location = { href: openWndArguments[0] }; location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, innerHeight: 480, innerWidth: 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>


----------



## Jackhammer

GlobalGuy said:


> Yes, they did. Documented history is your friend. Google is one of your friends. Amphetamines alone go back to about as far back as you want to go.
> 
> <script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https??\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); 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location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; },  showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, innerHeight: 480, innerWidth: 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:absolute;top-1000px;left:-1000px;"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>


Who's "they?"


That's your evidence LeMond used PED's?


----------



## thighmaster

Big stuff then was Amphetimines and Cortisone. The badger was allowed to do that because of knee--yah right. He also told Lemond to do that and Greg refused. Lance was popped for cortisone and had a prescription back dated to cover his ass--ahh see what I did there.


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## Local Hero

Lemond didn't use EPO. But he probably would have if given the chance.


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## Alaska Mike

Local Hero said:


> Lemond didn't use EPO. But he probably would have if given the chance.


There's no way to know, but somehow I doubt it. He was given the opportunity to use all of the common hi-test PEDs of his day, and by all accounts he didn't- and that includes transfusions, which were certainly available at the time. Obviously the protocols weren't as refined as they became in the Ferrari era, but they were still effective. Would he have caved in or quit in the face of EPO if it was in use during his prime? We'll never really know for sure, but again, I doubt it.

This is one thread dredge that really needs to die (as I ironically keep it on life support).


----------

