# Raam 2016



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Hi, my 4 man team is signed up for the 2016 RAAM. Any recommendations on how to train? Do we need to focus on long hours in the saddle? Or focus on hammering for 20 minutes at a time? Both? Somewhere in between? Thanks.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Are there qualifying rides before the event?


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

wow you're signed up for probably one of the toughest ultra endurance events on earth and you're asking basic these questions? Probably only the folks who have done RAAM could know. But I don't think all these traditional racing methods, like 20 min interval, or threshold training, will help in an event like RAAM. RAAM will be about food metabolism, managing your sleep, and managing saddle sores and back and neck sores. Those factors will be your enemies, accordinging to the various stories I've read about this event. Hell just to finish it is a monumental feat in itself. If I were ever to fancy this, I'd definitely do it in a recumbant bike.


----------



## Social Climber (Jan 16, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> wow you're signed up for probably one of the toughest ultra endurance events on earth and you're asking basic these questions? Probably only the folks who have done RAAM could know. But I don't think all these traditional racing methods, like 20 min interval, or threshold training, will help in an event like RAAM. RAAM will be about food metabolism, managing your sleep, and managing saddle sores and back and neck sores. Those factors will be your enemies, accordinging to the various stories I've read about this event. Hell just to finish it is a monumental feat in itself. If I were ever to fancy this, I'd definitely do it in a recumbant bike.


^^^ This. RAAM is not the kind of thing you do on a whim. It takes months or even years of preparation and experience in long distance cycling. Join Randonneurs USA, get to the point where you can do a 1200 km brevet, and then think about doing it 4 times over, except at a racing pace.


----------



## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Does seem like quite the undertaking for something you have no idea how to train for. (Been there, done that, though not quite off the magnitude of RAAM)

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest many, many looonnnggg rides between now and then, often back-to-back. And even 3 day weekends of 100-200 miles each day.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

start here

RAAM


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

I've been doing ultras since the early 80s. My longest was a 700-mile RAAM qualifier race back in 1985. You can't do this kind of stuff unless you have a lot of time in the saddle, and yes, over years when it comes to something like RAAM.

Last year I met 2 guys who had signed up for the 2-man team division. One guy could hardly ride more than 50 miles in one day. The other guy, the strong one, couldn't keep up a moderate 17mph pace in our 70-100 mile rides. It seems they thought that they could easily milk out a 6-hour ride segment, then take a rest while their team mate takes the relay for their 6 hour. But they didn't seem to think that within each 24 hour period, each rider would still be on the bike for 12 hours, not an easy task for someone who hadn't even done one double-century yet, and his longest ride was only a 6 hour INDOOR ride.

I think it's crazy that the RAAM organizers don't make it a requirement to make it through a qualifier ride for the relay teams. Even the relay segments of RAAM still go far beyond what most cyclists ever experience.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Is it a basic question? Because I'm not seeing any basic answers. I don't know why you're throwing your two cents in, you haven't done it. "I don't think all these traditional racing methods, like 20 min interval, or threshold training, will help in an event like RAAM" - Yea thanks for tell me what won't work. "RAAM will be about food metabolism, managing your sleep, and managing saddle sores and back and neck sores." Any grand ideas how to train for those?


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Velodog, you're a genius. I never thought to look at the RAAM website....:thumbsup:

Marathon, Maybe I can, maybe I can't. We have been researching, training, planning since June. So I thought I throw out the question in here and see if what I've read, heard, and been doing is consistent- so far I've heard a lot of "oh wow- that takes years of experience." Nothing on this forum has been very helpful yet. 

Jwiffle came the closest to being consistent- 2-3 day weekends cranking out 100+ miles each. 

Ol Social Climber up there is saying to get out and ride 750 miles at a time, four times over. I'm not riding the entire race brain child. I'm on a four man time. It averages out to 120 miles a day. And what is "race pace" after 1000 miles? We're just out for the experience, for the challenge. Not necessarily to beat anyone else. And most of the other actual training plans I've read- from actual people who have done it- are saying you DON'T need be able ride some retarded 1,000 mile ride. 

The endurance rides are definitely a necessity. However, we're only riding in short intervals - 15-30 minutes at time. Again- how would you training for that? Maybe hammer for 30 minutes- pull over on the side of the road for 10-20 minutes and repeat for 8 hours? I don't know...

Anyways- its time to go ride. See ya in July.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Jwiffle: Just because I ask a question- ask for other people's thoughts and ideas; does not mean I "have no idea how to train". I have my "ideas" on how to train, doesn't mean there aren't different, better ways to go about it.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

rose.johnp said:


> Velodog, you're a genius. I never thought to look at the RAAM website....:thumbsup:
> 
> Marathon, Maybe I can, maybe I can't. We have been researching, training, planning since June. So I thought I throw out the question in here and see if what I've read, heard, and been doing is consistent- so far I've heard a lot of "oh wow- that takes years of experience." Nothing on this forum has been very helpful yet.
> 
> ...


I think that you're undertraining if you only prepare to ride 120 miles a day average. What if one of the team can't ride for a day or two, is everyone going to quit or do three keep riding hoping that the fourth can resume the ride. What if two can't go on, time to quit or try and finish shorthanded?

What if the four of you get mid way through Pennsylvania, and one of you can't go on, the rest gonna pack it in because they're only prepared to ride 120 mile avg. days and they're behind schedule and tired and short a rider.

It's probably more important to look at the finish of the race\ride than the beginning.


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

rose.johnp said:


> Is it a basic question? Because I'm not seeing any basic answers. I don't know why you're throwing your two cents in, you haven't done it. "I don't think all these traditional racing methods, like 20 min interval, or threshold training, will help in an event like RAAM" - Yea thanks for tell me what won't work. "RAAM will be about food metabolism, managing your sleep, and managing saddle sores and back and neck sores." Any grand ideas how to train for those?


Food metabolism: Check out the articles on the ultracycling.com website. Then go out an experience things on your own. 

Managing your sleep: Check out the articles on the ultracycling.com website. Then go out an experience things on your own.

Mmanaging saddle sores and back and neck sores: Check out the articles on the ultracycling.com website. Then go out an experience things on your own.


----------



## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

rose.johnp said:


> Jwiffle: Just because I ask a question- ask for other people's thoughts and ideas; does not mean I "have no idea how to train". I have my "ideas" on how to train, doesn't mean there aren't different, better ways to go about it.


Your initial question was worded such that you came across as someone who signed up, but had never trained for an event of this type. Most people don't try RAAM as the first endurance event they attempt. I don't have much experience with such an event. Most I've done is 2 centuries in a row.

Didn't realize a team event was only in 20-30 minute intervals. Assumed it was more like 6 hour turns (would still add up the same, I guess, though maybe the work would be different).


----------



## marathon marke (Nov 14, 2011)

Jwiffle said:


> Your initial question was worded such that you came across as someone who signed up, but had never trained for an event of this type. Most people don't try RAAM as the first endurance event they attempt. I don't have much experience with such an event. Most I've done is 2 centuries in a row.
> 
> Didn't realize a team event was only in 20-30 minute intervals. Assumed it was more like 6 hour turns (would still add up the same, I guess, though maybe the work would be different).


rose.johnp, are you required to keep to 20-30 minute turns/pulls? If not, I don't think I would keep them that short for an event that is as long as RAAM. I would think that each rider should take at least a 2 or 3 hours for each turn. 

Does that help?

It's really difficult to know to what level of advice you're looking for, when we have no idea what level of rider you currently are, or the experience you've had with ultras. Then add onto it, the RAAM is taking ultras to the extreme, and so any advice would be even more difficult to offer. In other words, if you've never done a double-century, don't be concerned withh what it takes to do RAAM. Be concerned with what it takes to do a double-century.

Oh, by the way...you know those two RAAM cylclists I mentioned in reponse #9?
Well, they never made it to 400 miles, because neither of them had any long road rides under their belt (150+).


----------



## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm willing to bet that 15 to 30 minute intervals get abounded fairly quickly. You will not be able to get any significant rest changing off this often. 

Based on my experience velo has given you something to think about. In addition to his points are you going to ride as individual riders, or 2 at a time? You need to be prepared for all kinds of conditions like a30 mph headwind. You may find yourself riding as pairs a part of the time

I have not paid much attention to RAAM in recent years, and when I did, they did not have a relay, but do they have a time limit you have to make at the check in points like the solo division? I would check to see what other teams are doing, time wise, then try to match up for a minimum of three days based on what it takes to be an official finisher. Remember that you will slow down as you go, so factor this in as well. 

I suggest you also include your support vehicle and personnel in some of these rides. They need to know what they are getting into. In some aspects driving the support vehicle is more exhausting than riding you don't want to abandon the ride because your support can't go the distance


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

You will need to ride your bike to train. 
On a 4 man team I would not plan any segment less than one hour, if the wind is bad you may have to shorten the segment.
You should research sleep, you will want to get off the bike and sleep... as much as you can or lay down. I would use a big support vehicle with beds and a kitchen.
You will need a team captain, not a rider, and several drivers.
Get spare parts that will fit all the bikes, tires, tubes, batteries, probably a good idea to have a wrench as a support driver.


----------



## echo7 (Sep 7, 2010)

rose.johnp said:


> Hi, my 4 man team is signed up for the 2016 RAAM. Any recommendations on how to train? Do we need to focus on long hours in the saddle? Or focus on hammering for 20 minutes at a time? Both? Somewhere in between? Thanks.


20 minutes at a time? meaning none of you will sleep.?


----------



## ClayL (Dec 14, 2012)

echo7 said:


> 20 minutes at a time? meaning none of you will sleep.?


Here's the way the winning four man team in 2014 did it: split into 2 man teams, one team goes ahead in a motor home about 6-8 hours and rests/sleeps. The other two take 20-30 turns and trade off for 6-8 hours. Then the other team takes over and they rest. 

Its very important to have have a great support team. An RV to sleep in, another chase vehicle, and at least 4 non riders. 2 to drive, a navigator, someone with first aid training


----------



## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

ClayL said:


> Here's the way the winning four man team in 2014 did it: split into 2 man teams, one team goes ahead in a motor home about 6-8 hours and rests/sleeps. The other two take 20-30 turns and trade off for 6-8 hours. Then the other team takes over and they rest.
> 
> Its very important to have have a great support team. An RV to sleep in, another chase vehicle, and at least 4 non riders. 2 to drive, a navigator, someone with first aid training


Yup, that's how it's done. Teams have been a part of RAAM since the early 90's and that's the tried and true formula.

I crewed for a solo rider in 2006 and then the following year was hired by the RAAM Media crew and have been working with them ever since. 2016 will be my 11th consecutive year on the road with RAAM.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

I guess we could train for every "what if" scenario.


----------



## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

rose.johnp said:


> I guess we could train for every "what if" scenario.


Yup. Everyone has a plan...and usually by the end of day one they've moved on to "plan B," and then by Annapolis they're well into "plan U" or "plan W."


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Big-foot said:


> Yup. Everyone has a plan...and usually by the end of day one they've moved on to "plan B," and then by Annapolis they're well into "plan U" or "plan W."


There's a big difference between training & planning for every "what if" scenario. Plans are easy to develop and follow- the four of us do that for a living. Training is a different story. What if my three other team mates can't ride? Well I'm certainly not going to train to ride the whole thing myself, but we'll have a plan if that happens. What if our RV breaks down? We'll have a plan for that, there's not much training that will help that scenario.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Thanks for the references. I'll definitely check them out.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Clay & Big-foot, our research has shown that is the best way to do it as well. We have a manager who's organizing the crew of 13-ish. (mechanic, medical, pt, food prep, etc). 

So the question remains- how to train for multiple 20-30 minute pulls for 6-7 days in a row? Obviously "time in the saddle". Easy to give that generic answer. Like most people, I work full time, have a family. So when I go out for a training ride, it needs to be for a purpose. I don't have time to waste on junk miles. I know enough to train in blocks of 4-6 weeks with the focus to peak at the end of June. I have time for 3 training blocks. Endurance / long miles will be worked into all three. I already have a pretty solid base. Basically I'm just working out what to focus on. Work outs focused on building power during the week with my long endurance rides on the weekends?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

rose.johnp said:


> There's a big difference between training & planning for every "what if" scenario. Plans are easy to develop and follow- the four of us do that for a living. Training is a different story. What if my three other team mates can't ride? Well I'm certainly not going to train to ride the whole thing myself, but we'll have a plan if that happens. What if our RV breaks down? We'll have a plan for that, there's not much training that will help that scenario.


On a ride like RAAM, solid training will go further than the best laid plans.

Do you plan on finishing or just want to say that you tried to ride RAAM?


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Yea, thus the original question: Any recommendations on how to train?


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

rose.johnp said:


> Yea, thus the original question: Any recommendations on how to train?


Why not the four of you get together with a chase vehicle and take a two/three day ride as you plan to do the race. You'll get an idea of what to expect, and where your weaknesses are. Base your training on that. 

Do a coupla qualifying rides and see how you fair in race conditions.

Do long rides for a good base and endurance, intervals to build a little explosiveness and speed.

Research any blogs of teams that have already done it and ask questions of them.

Use your imagination.


----------



## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

rose.johnp said:


> Yea, thus the original question: Any recommendations on how to train?


Include learning to ride at night on unfamiliar roads while sleep deprived.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

We completed RAAM 2016 in 7 days, 7 hours and 14 minutes. This was my first endurance event, I had never ridden more then 150 miles at time, or 300 miles in a week. I did sign up on a whim, not really knowing what an under taking RAAM would be. Of my 4-man team, I rode 740 miles, 43 hours of saddle time, 31,500 ft of climbing. My RAAM specific training started in January 2016, I had 6 months of solid training, not years. My training was spot on, I felt strong all week. 

For those who would like to know my training- based off my schedule, I broke my time (Jan-June) into 3 training blocks. For the first two training blocks I used Strava's grand fondo training plan. I bought a power meter to train with, and focused on increasing my FTP. I would increase the length of the workouts to get 12-15 hours of riding a week.

The last training block focused on shorter, more frequent rides, but with a total of at least 15 hours a week. For example over Memorial Day weekend, I did 22 rides (all within 30-45 minutes long). Distance doesn't matter; factors such as grade, elevation, wind, weather will affect your distance. I focused on putting out consistent power each ride, and for the set amount of time.

During the race, that's exactly how it worked out. Early in the week, we did longer pulls, 30-45 minutes. But as the week went on, weather, terrain and fatigue adjusted the length of our pulls. When it was 110 degrees in Arizona, we did 10-15 minutes. When it was cool in the West Virginia, and I was feeling strong, I climbed for an hour. I just focused on keeping my power consistent where I knew it needed to be.

If anyone is looking at doing this in the future and has questions, feel free to PM me.


----------



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

So, you rode across the country and you're reporting on it like it was a Strava segment? Not only were you insulting and condescending to people here who answered your asinine questions, but you seemed to have missed the entire purpose of the event itself. Congratulations on your "success".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## redcon1 (Jul 22, 2008)

Wow.. Opus, however he did it, he and his team FINISHED. In my mind that IS in fact the entire purpose of the event itself. Do you have a different criteria?

LARGE props to rose.johnp and all of the competitors who completed RAAM this year. I live near TS 51 and had the opportunity to see some of the riders only about 90 miles or so from the finish. Most looked far better than I did at the completion of my sole double-century.


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

If this is how we now report starva segments, then yes, Opus I am. I'm not sure if you read the thread in its entirety, there was very little useful information to my "asinine" question. There was mostly nay sayers, negativity and with minimal constructive or useful information. It's sad that asking a for information on cycling, in a cycling forum is considered "asinine". The nerve right? It's no wonder why our sport is diminishing, any newbie who came here looking for help/assistance would surely be discourage. I am very proud of my "success." Me and my entire team worked very hard to finish the race. (Which I thought was the purpose of the event).


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

This is exactly how we broke down the race. We had a total of 4 vehicles and 12 crew. We could have certainly used another 2 more crew members, but we pushed through and made it work. Navigation was KEY as we moved past Indiana, there were more and more turns in each state, and the crew is increasingly more tired. We got lost a handful of times, but nothing that cost us to much time.


----------



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

rose.johnp said:


> If this is how we now report starva segments, then yes, Opus I am. I'm not sure if you read the thread in its entirety, there was very little useful information to my "asinine" question. There was mostly nay sayers, negativity and with minimal constructive or useful information. It's sad that asking a for information on cycling, in a cycling forum is considered "asinine". The nerve right? It's no wonder why our sport is diminishing, any newbie who came here looking for help/assistance would surely be discourage. I am very proud of my "success." Me and my entire team worked very hard to finish the race. (Which I thought was the purpose of the event).


Correction. There was very little useful information _because_ your initial question was asinine. That's an important distinction to make.

You started off presenting yourself as someone about to embark on a race across America looking for "Any recommendations on how to train?" Do you honestly not see why that was met with skepticism? 

So, rather than taking ownership for the fact that your OP was... shall we say ambiguous... at best, instead you chose to get snarky with the people who (in my opinion, rightly) called you on the ridiculousness of your original premise.

You finally clarified your position by post #9, but not before tossing out these gems...

"I don't know why you're throwing your two cents in, you haven't done it."
"Yea thanks for tell me what won't work."
"Velodog, you're a genius. I never thought to look at the RAAM website...."
"I'm not riding the entire race brain child."

So please don't play the innocent newb card. 
But yeah, you're right. I'm to blame for "why our sport is diminishing"...


----------



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

The quality of the responses you get to a question is directly related to the quality of said question.

Or, as my Father used to say, "ask better questions and you get better answers". 

Of course there is also the considering of *who* you ask. Asking a bunch of strangers on an internet forum how to train for something as challenging and difficult as RAAM is a recipe for getting some bad answers.

That said, congratulations to you and your team. You've definitely accomplished something special.


----------



## Mcfarton (May 23, 2014)

Great job! I went to the finish line that Saturday and cheered on the riders! RAAM has been on my bucket list for a few years. 

If you don't mind how much did you spend $ on a team of 4?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Very true on both points. Lesson learned.


----------

