# Gravel/Road/Crit bike



## wradom

I'm currently looking to replace my current road bike with a road bike (disc) that can accomidate close to 40mm tires; if there are any suggestions out there please shout them out. 

Tricky part is I want whatever I go with to be able to be both comfortable for hours upon hours on gravel and (after some changes to the gearing/rubber) be able to hold it's own in a crit/road race. Open UP and 3T Exploro are the obvious answers but seriously pricy, Foundry Overland and Santa Cruz Stigmata have my interest right now too and are in the lead. They both look like a winners in my mind.. So if anyone has either of these and pushes them on and off the road I'm interested in hearing how you like them. 

I expect with disc brakes to continue to be pushed hard by bike manufacturers and there will be a lot more options that would fit this niche soon.. I'm a big guy 6'3'' so I'm not one that really sweats the fact my bike could be a pound or two heavier than the next guys. I've accepted the fact that I'll have to slam the stem on whatever frame I get as all the options apart from the 3T are pretty relaxed...


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## bocksta

Have you looked at the Caad 12 ultegra disc? Good review from cyclingtips in the link below.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/cannondale-caad12-vs-supersix-evo-hi-mod-road-disc-bike-comparison-review/

edit: Sorry ,I missed the part on the 40c tires. looks like the Caad 12 max is 28-30c


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## Marc

wradom said:


> I'm currently looking to replace my current road bike with a road bike (disc) that can accomidate close to 40mm tires; if there are any suggestions out there please shout them out.
> 
> Tricky part is I want whatever I go with to be able to be both comfortable for hours upon hours on gravel and (after some changes to the gearing/rubber) be able to hold it's own in a crit/road race. Open UP and 3T Exploro are the obvious answers but seriously pricy, Foundry Overland and Santa Cruz Stigmata have my interest right now too and are in the lead. They both look like a winners in my mind.. So if anyone has either of these and pushes them on and off the road I'm interested in hearing how you like them.
> 
> I expect with disc brakes to continue to be pushed hard by bike manufacturers and there will be a lot more options that would fit this niche soon.. I'm a big guy 6'3'' so I'm not one that really sweats the fact my bike could be a pound or two heavier than the next guys. I've accepted the fact that I'll have to slam the stem on whatever frame I get as all the options apart from the 3T are pretty relaxed...


Gravel and crit riding are two fairly diametrically opposed need sets.

I'd keep your road bike and get a dedicated gravel/off-road steed of which there are many. The Foundry bikes are nice, Foundry is a Salsa branding-and can be purchased locally at any QBP-supplied LBS in your area.


Doing so would also open up your choices substantially.


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## MMsRepBike

Gravel: Long wheel base, long chainstays, low bottom bracket, slack angles.

Crit: Short wheelbase, short chainstays, high bottom bracket, sharp angles.


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## Herbie

Not sure you can get one bike to do everything, but disc brakes will let you go with 650B wheels which will let you go beyond stated spec on most road bikes. 700 wheels for faster riding, and 650B wide tires for gravel

I have converted an old road frame over to 650B, and I can use 38's. With 700s 28s were the largest I could run


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## wradom

bocksta said:


> Have you looked at the Caad 12 ultegra disc? Good review from cyclingtips in the link below.
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2017/01/can...-evo-hi-mod-road-disc-bike-comparison-review/
> 
> edit: Sorry ,I missed the part on the 40c tires. looks like the Caad 12 max is 28-30c


The caad 12 would be perfect with just a little more tire clearance, but then Cannondale would have a lot of trouble selling a slate..


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## Jay Strongbow

Look into custom steel, or ti if you budget allows. You said you're a big guy so the extra pound or so shouldn't matter in exchange for being able to get exactly what you want for a decent price.

It's true that gravel bikes and crit bikes are quite different. But really racing an aggressive (by gravel bike standards) gravel bike in a crit wouldn't be a problem per se. Less than idea but your speed will be all about the tires you put on it so you'd do fine. I've raced a few crits on my gravel bike. No big deal.
The other way around, however, is less feasible. A crit bike could get to squirrely in soft gravel.


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## wradom

Marc said:


> Gravel and crit riding are two fairly diametrically opposed need sets.
> 
> I'd keep your road bike and get a dedicated gravel/off-road steed of which there are many. The Foundry bikes are nice, Foundry is a Salsa branding-and can be purchased locally at any QBP-supplied LBS in your area.
> 
> 
> Doing so would also open up your choices substantially.


I guess I would lean much more towards road races than to crits (they are just more frequent).. It would open up my choices but I don't really have the budget to spring for a road bike that would only get used 5-10 times per year..


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## Hiro11

MMsRepBike said:


> Gravel: Long wheel base, long chainstays, low bottom bracket, slack angles.
> 
> Crit: Short wheelbase, short chainstays, high bottom bracket, sharp angles.


Yeah, very different requirements. The mega-buck (and bizarre to me) 3T Exploro might work as it's racy but has large tire clearance. I'd recommend getting an inexpensive crit racer and an inexpensive gravel bike. Both of these disciplines are crash-prone and you don't want to ride something you can't afford to trash.


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## Jay Strongbow

Hiro11 said:


> Yeah, very different requirements. The mega-buck (and bizarre to me) 3T Exploro might work as it's racy but has large tire clearance. I'd recommend getting an inexpensive crit racer and an inexpensive gravel bike. Both of these disciplines are crash-prone and you don't want to ride something you can't afford to trash.


Two bikes is a good idea because changing tires and gearing all the time would be a pain......but I'm going to suggest that this business of different angles ect, while true, is being way overstatated. One could do just fine road racing and gravel riding the same frame.


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## wradom

Jay Strongbow said:


> Two bikes is a good idea because changing tires and gearing all the time would be a pain......but I'm going to suggest that this business of different angles ect, while true, is being way overstatated. One could do just fine road racing and gravel riding the same frame.


I'll be honest, I almost exclusively ride road/pavement and that won't change drastically with a new bike so there wouldn't be a great deal of hassle in changing gearing/tires around often. Leaning towards the Santa Cruz Stigmata as it is on par in terms of price of the Foundry and potentially just as light as my current road bike.
Ideally Trek comes out with a new domane with crazy clearance on it and I can just pick that up...


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## kbwh

wradom said:


> The caad 12 would be perfect with just a little more tire clearance, but then Cannondale would have a lot of trouble selling a slate..


The Slate is more like a Synapse with 650B fat tires and a shock fork.


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## Chader09

Trek Domane SL or SLR models or Trek Boone once they release the new model later this year with the front Isospeed?


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## wradom

Chader09 said:


> Trek Domane SL or SLR models?


They would be absolutely perfect with just a little more clearance. Last I heard they really only fit up to 28mm tires.


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## Lombard

Have you looked at the Jamis Renegade:

renegadeseries


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## wradom

Lombard said:


> Have you looked at the Jamis Renegade:
> 
> renegadeseries


That is pretty close to what I'm looking for, Stigmatas geometry looks slightly better for racing on the road. Thanks for bringing it in I'll look at it more for sure.


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## Chader09

wradom said:


> They would be absolutely perfect with just a little more clearance. Last I heard they really only fit up to 28mm tires.


I have a friend who just got the SLR 6 Disc and it came stock with 32 road slick. It should fit a 33 CX tire with decent room. I'd suggest looking at one in person if you get a chance.
Domane SLR 6 Disc | Trek Bikes

Also, not the best name, but the new DB Haanjo looks sweet.
Diamondback Bicycles - Bikes - Road - Alternative Road - Haanjo - Haanjo Trail Carbon


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## Lombard

wradom said:


> That is pretty close to what I'm looking for, Stigmatas geometry looks slightly better for racing on the road. Thanks for bringing it in I'll look at it more for sure.


If you are looking for a more aggressive geometry, you may want to look at some cyclocross bikes. Though I don't know if any of those can fit 40c tires.


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## ChuckDiesel

I can't commit on which frame is the best all a rounder, but I sold my road bike a year and half ago and have been riding my Specialized Crux w/disc for everything and it's a great do it all bike (gravel, road (endurance and racing), and cx). I bought a nice set of wheels for the road (ENVE 5.6s) and with those, I have no problem hanging with the fast guys. Its not the ideal geometry for serious road riding or racing crits but I do both no problem and the bike is super comfortable on long distance road rides. 

Point is, save some of your budget for a nice set of aero wheels and you'll be very happy you did when riding and racing on the road. Nice wheels will make a much bigger difference on the road than a cm difference in geometry.


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## Marc

wradom said:


> I guess I would lean much more towards road races than to crits (they are just more frequent).. It would open up my choices but I don't really have the budget to spring for a road bike that would only get used 5-10 times per year..


Since you're set on a do-it-all bike....Consider Rodeo Labs Flaanimal (in steel or Ti)

Flaanimal 3.0 Adventure Bike. specification preview - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC


I'm lining up to build one this spring for a non-paved surface bike. It is the only real many-role frameset on the market, the adjustable dropouts will come in handy for you in allowing you to shallow or deepen the wheelbase, depending on surface.


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## wradom

Marc said:


> Since you're set on a do-it-all bike....Consider Rodeo Labs Flaanimal (in steel or Ti)
> 
> Flaanimal 3.0 Adventure Bike. specification preview - Rodeo Adventure Labs, LLCRodeo Adventure Labs, LLC
> 
> 
> I'm lining up to build one this spring for a non-paved surface bike. It is the only real many-role frameset on the market, the adjustable dropouts will come in handy for you in allowing you to shallow or deepen the wheelbase, depending on surface.


That's a really cool option. Hadn't heard of it before, I'll dig into it a little. 
After reading way too many geometries and tire clearance claims, I've effectively narrowed my list down to four.
In no particular order right now:

Santa Cruz Stigmata (the most relaxed of the bunch, similar geo to what I ride right now) 

Specialized Crux (the boring option, set up with road gearing would definitely do the trick) General question on this frame, how can it have the same bb drop as the tarmac but a different bb height????? Are they just fibbing a bit using the tire size?

Scott Addict Gravel (looks like the best option right now, geo is bang on)

Foundry Overland (more of a want, definitely the heaviest of the bunch to the point it could be a drag in a hilly road race)


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## MMsRepBike

wradom said:


> General question on this frame, how can it have the same bb drop as the tarmac but a different bb height????? Are they just fibbing a bit using the tire size?


Bottom bracket drop is a frame measurement.

Bottom bracket height, or stand over height, is a fully built bike with tires on it measurement.


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## wradom

MMsRepBike said:


> Bottom bracket drop is a frame measurement.
> 
> Bottom bracket height, or stand over height, is a fully built bike with tires on it measurement.


So with the same wheels/tires a tarmac and crux would have the same bb height then right?


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## MMsRepBike

wradom said:


> So with the same wheels/tires a tarmac and crux would have the same bb height then right?


If the bottom bracket drop is the same, yes.

And just for reference, the drop for a crit bike should really be no less than 68. Crit is usually about 65 to 68 or so. Road is usually around 68 to 72 or so, most commonly about 70. Some "endurance" and gravel and such bikes are about 72 to 75. Touring bikes will be the deepest at around 78 to 80 or so. 

The deeper the bottom bracket drop the less ability you have to pedal through turns. In exchange though you get a lower center of gravity and better stability, especially at high speed.


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## wradom

MMsRepBike said:


> If the bottom bracket drop is the same, yes.
> 
> And just for reference, the drop for a crit bike should really be no less than 68. Crit is usually about 65 to 68 or so. Road is usually around 68 to 72 or so, most commonly about 70. Some "endurance" and gravel and such bikes are about 72 to 75. Touring bikes will be the deepest at around 78 to 80 or so.
> 
> The deeper the bottom bracket drop the less ability you have to pedal through turns. In exchange though you get a lower center of gravity and better stability, especially at high speed.


Thanks for the clear response. I'll be coming from an Bianchi Infinito (bb drop of 68) which is hardly a super aggressive racer (it is no slouch). Both the crux and addict gravel have bb drops of 67 which sound dead on for what I'm looking for with their ability to fit wider rubber when I need it. The big thing I want to avoid is getting a frame that is as/less aggressive than the one I have now but not so aggressive that it doesn't feel planted at a 40+ mph decent on the road. 

If I'm honest the bianchi has never really felt at home in a crit but I have managed a few good results anyway.


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## wradom

MMsRepBike said:


> If the bottom bracket drop is the same, yes.
> 
> And just for reference, the drop for a crit bike should really be no less than 68. Crit is usually about 65 to 68 or so. Road is usually around 68 to 72 or so, most commonly about 70. Some "endurance" and gravel and such bikes are about 72 to 75. Touring bikes will be the deepest at around 78 to 80 or so.
> 
> The deeper the bottom bracket drop the less ability you have to pedal through turns. In exchange though you get a lower center of gravity and better stability, especially at high speed.


Worth mentioning that I can offset a few millimeters of a lower bb height by running 28mm tires versus my normal 23-25mm tires, wouldn't be any slower either.


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## the_doctor

I thought that disc was illegal in a crit. Are you under USAC rules? I don't think that you can do this?

Bill



wradom said:


> I'm currently looking to replace my current road bike with a road bike (disc) that can accomidate close to 40mm tires; if there are any suggestions out there please shout them out.
> 
> Tricky part is I want whatever I go with to be able to be both comfortable for hours upon hours on gravel and (after some changes to the gearing/rubber) be able to hold it's own in a crit/road race. Open UP and 3T Exploro are the obvious answers but seriously pricy, Foundry Overland and Santa Cruz Stigmata have my interest right now too and are in the lead. They both look like a winners in my mind.. So if anyone has either of these and pushes them on and off the road I'm interested in hearing how you like them.
> 
> I expect with disc brakes to continue to be pushed hard by bike manufacturers and there will be a lot more options that would fit this niche soon.. I'm a big guy 6'3'' so I'm not one that really sweats the fact my bike could be a pound or two heavier than the next guys. I've accepted the fact that I'll have to slam the stem on whatever frame I get as all the options apart from the 3T are pretty relaxed...


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## babylou

40c tire capability but tight geometry for criteriums = 650b. Cannondale Slate Apex has a rigid fork, crit type tight geometry and stock wheels run 650bX42 tires. Build a 2nd set of 700c wheels and you can run 25 or 28's.


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## wradom

the_doctor said:


> I thought that disc was illegal in a crit. Are you under USAC rules? I don't think that you can do this?
> 
> Bill


Disc brakes are allowed in road events as long as the event is not a UCI race or a race where UCI regulations are being enforced


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## Trek_5200

i went custom. to accommodate 40 mm tires you'll need a cx fork. just know that when a bike is outfitted with 40 mm tires it will ride differently and you'll lose some of that road bike feel. it will feel a bit slower and the riding position will not feel as aggressive. 650 size wheels might be worth exploring.


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## Henry Chinaski

no


123


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## wradom

Henry Chinaski said:


> no
> 
> 
> 123


'No' to which part?


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## Henry Chinaski

wradom said:


> 'No' to which part?


The whole concept? If you are even remotely serious about road racing/crits. Get two bikes.


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## wradom

Henry Chinaski said:


> The whole concept? If you are even remotely serious about road racing/crits. Get two bikes.


The more I've dug into this the more I would disagree with you. I was skeptical when I first started looking around, but after finding some options there's really quite a few frames that will do exactly what I'm looking for. So many cx bikes have bb drops and geometry similar to road bikes to the point if you're looking at a disc brake road bike anyway the only difference between the two is tire clearance and 100-200 grams... I'll take the weight penalty for the ability to throw 35mm gravel tires on any day of the week.


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## Jay Strongbow

wradom said:


> The more I've dug into this the more I would disagree with you. I was skeptical when I first started looking around, but after finding some options there's really quite a few frames that will do exactly what I'm looking for. So many cx bikes have bb drops and geometry similar to road bikes to the point if you're looking at a disc brake road bike anyway the only difference between the two is tire clearance and 100-200 grams... I'll take the weight penalty for the ability to throw 35mm gravel tires on any day of the week.


You're right. I've raced a few crits on a bike that takes 40mm tires. No problem at all as compared to my pure race bike.


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## Henry Chinaski

wradom said:


> The more I've dug into this the more I would disagree with you. I was skeptical when I first started looking around, but after finding some options there's really quite a few frames that will do exactly what I'm looking for. So many cx bikes have bb drops and geometry similar to road bikes to the point if you're looking at a disc brake road bike anyway the only difference between the two is tire clearance and 100-200 grams... I'll take the weight penalty for the ability to throw 35mm gravel tires on any day of the week.


Have you ever raced a crit? Sluggish front end steering on your typical big tire gravel bike won't be your friend when you are trying to adjust your line mid corner. Two bikes are always better than one. Three bikes are always better than two. Taking a knife to a gun fight, etc etc. That said, I ride gravel and dirt all the time with 28 or 32s and caliper brakes so I'd more lean that direction if you really want one bike. Something like a Gunnar Sport or even a Ritchey Road Logic (which fits 28s).


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## Jay Strongbow

Henry Chinaski said:


> Have you ever raced a crit? Sluggish front end steering on your typical big tire gravel bike won't be your friend when you are trying to adjust your line mid corner. Two bikes are always better than one. Three bikes are always better than two. Taking a knife to a gun fight, etc etc. That said, I ride gravel and dirt all the time with 28 or 32s and caliper brakes so I'd more lean that direction if you really want one bike. Something like a Gunnar Sport or even a Ritchey Road Logic (which fits 28s).


I don't think he's talking about using big tires in crits. Just wants to have a bike that takes both crit appropriate tires and much bigger for other rides.


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## wradom

Jay Strongbow said:


> I don't think he's talking about using big tires in crits. Just wants to have a bike that takes both crit appropriate tires and much bigger for other rides.


This is exactly what I mean, though I wouldn't be opposed to trying out 28mm tires especially if it's a technical course.


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## wradom

Henry Chinaski said:


> Have you ever raced a crit? Sluggish front end steering on your typical big tire gravel bike won't be your friend when you are trying to adjust your line mid corner. Two bikes are always better than one. Three bikes are always better than two. Taking a knife to a gun fight, etc etc. That said, I ride gravel and dirt all the time with 28 or 32s and caliper brakes so I'd more lean that direction if you really want one bike. Something like a Gunnar Sport or even a Ritchey Road Logic (which fits 28s).


I do 10-15 crits a year, I prefer road races but crits are held every week. I'm not looking at the super laid back gravel bikes, but cx and gravel frames that sport similar geo to their road counterparts. I understand where you're coming from I think. 

"adjust your line mid corner" - this sort of talk is why I don't enjoy crits all the time. 

Not a huge fan of steel myself, I don't see the benefit of it for the prices it goes for, everyone is entitled to their opinion though (I will say that the Ritchey Road Logic and swisscross look amazing don't really fit my needs here though).


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## Henry Chinaski

wradom said:


> I do 10-15 crits a year, I prefer road races but crits are held every week. I'm not looking at the super laid back gravel bikes, but cx and gravel frames that sport similar geo to their road counterparts. I understand where you're coming from I think.
> 
> "adjust your line mid corner" - this sort of talk is why I don't enjoy crits all the time.
> 
> Not a huge fan of steel myself, I don't see the benefit of it for the prices it goes for, everyone is entitled to their opinion though (I will say that the Ritchey Road Logic and swisscross look amazing don't really fit my needs here though).


Cool. Yeah, never a big fan of crits myself.

Here's Thomas Frischknecht on a Ritchey cross bike in the 1996 Olympic Road Race (I think Tony Rominger decided to sit it out at the last moment, freeing up a spot on the Swiss team). So it is doable.


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## Jay Strongbow

wradom said:


> Not a huge fan of steel myself, I don't see the benefit of it for the prices it goes for, everyone is entitled to their opinion though (I will say that the Ritchey Road Logic and swisscross look amazing don't really fit my needs here though).


The benefit of steel is you can get exactly what you want fit, feature and handling wise for the price of a second rate carbon bike that would almost certainly be a compromise compared to exactly what you want. And while it think carbon being fragile is way overblown, when rocks are flying around as the can off-road steel probably runs less risk. 

So all this research you're doing trying to find the perfect bike and the give and take compromise would be completely unnecessary if you were to just speak to a custom steel builder and tell them exactly what you want.


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## Rashadabd

We discussed some of these same issues/options in my "Quiver Killer" thread. I like a lot of bikes that fall into this category, but my favorites/finalists are the 3T Exploro, Litespeed T5 Gravel, Salsa Warbird Carbon, the Niner RLT 9 (carbon, steel, or aluminum), new Orbea Terra, Fuji Jari, and Giant TCX SX. There's a bunch of different price points and features there, but they all seem like they would do the job just fine at the end of the day. I recommend checking them out.


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## phin

As a rider who enjoys gravel roads, I haven't heard any mention of Merckx gravel or cross bikes. I believe the carbon Strasbourg fits a lot into this category.


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## crit_boy

Rashadabd said:


> We discussed some of these same issues/options in my "Quiver Killer" thread. I like a lot of bikes that fall into this category, but my favorites/finalists are the 3T Exploro, Litespeed T5 Gravel, Salsa Warbird Carbon, the Niner RLT 9 (carbon, steel, or aluminum), new Orbea Terra, Fuji Jari, and Giant TCX SX. There's a bunch of different price points and features there, but they all seem like they would do the job just fine at the end of the day.


I have a Niner BSB9, which is tighter geometry than an Niner RLT 9. No way would I want to use my BSB9 in a crit. The front wheel is too far out there. the steering is slow and heavy relative to a crit geometry. The geometry is not crit bike nimble. 

Can you use the wrong tool for the job? - yes. E.g., cresent hammer.

Could a very good rider successfully race a gravel bike in a crit? - probably. 

Does that mean a gravel bike would be a good crit bike - No.

Does that mean a crit bike is a good gravel bike - probably not. 

But, I would rather ride a crit bike on gravel than a gravel bike in a crit.


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## Rashadabd

crit_boy said:


> I have a Niner BSB9, which is tighter geometry than an Niner RLT 9. No way would I want to use my BSB9 in a crit. The front wheel is too far out there. the steering is slow and heavy relative to a crit geometry. The geometry is not crit bike nimble.
> 
> Can you use the wrong tool for the job? - yes. E.g., cresent hammer.
> 
> Could a very good rider successfully race a gravel bike in a crit? - probably.
> 
> Does that mean a gravel bike would be a good crit bike - No.
> 
> Does that mean a crit bike is a good gravel bike - probably not.
> 
> But, I would rather ride a crit bike on gravel than a gravel bike in a crit.


I think it comes down to asking yourself which kind of riding will be your "main thing"/focus. That's the kind of bike I would lean toward. To address what you have stated above, however, a lot of these bikes are just endurance bikes with clearance for wider tires. I have seen scores of people race crits on endurance bikes. They may not be in it to win or be the most aero and are more likely to just be out there for fun, but they're racing regularly. To each his own though. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ra...athlons/who-racing-endurance-bike-343943.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/specialized/racing-roubaix-crit-179639.html

AG2R and other pro teams also have raced cyclocross bikes in the Classics in the past. They performed just fine there as well.






Will Lotto-Belisol riders use cross bikes at Roubaix? - Cycling Weekly


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## wradom

One thing I hadn't considered as a problem is whether or not the frame can actually take the gearing. A lot of 'adventure' type bikes cannot take a 53 chainring, ran into this when I was finalizing a purchase of a Foundry overland (it tops out at 53), major buzzkill... Does anyone know if a Santa Cruz Stigmata can fit a 53/39 crank?


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## Trek_5200

pretty uncommon to outfit a gravel bike with standard gearing. many people go compact on a gravel bike or even 46/36. We're not talking road bikes which is the only place I'd consider a standard crank.


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## wradom

My goal here is to be able to be competitive on the road 1st, then be able to throw some gearing around for the 5-10 other days of the year. 
I know I don't necessarily need standard gearing to be competitive but I'd rather have it as an option at the very least.
The more I look at this the more it looks like I'll end up with the first bike that got me looking at this, a Salsa Warbird. Which has no issues running a 53/39 and has almost the exact geo as my current road bike..


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## Trek_5200

wradom said:


> My goal here is to be able to be competitive on the road 1st, then be able to throw some gearing around for the 5-10 other days of the year.
> I know I don't necessarily need standard gearing to be competitive but I'd rather have it as an option at the very least.
> The more I look at this the more it looks like I'll end up with the first bike that got me looking at this, a Salsa Warbird. Which has no issues running a 53/39 and has almost the exact geo as my current road bike..


If my goal was to be competitve on the road first and foremost I'd get a road bike. The geometry of a gravel bike is more tilted toward stability vs agility. Chain stays tend to be a bit longer, longer wheel base, higher head tube. It will certainly be ride able on the road, but not optimum in my book. I use my gravel bike in the winter, but I instantly feel faster and more maneuverable when I switch back.

And as far as gearing, I bit the bullet and switched from 53/39 to 52/36. While i prefer the standard for my local rides it makes some of my more challenging rides a little more attainable, but to be honest, when I did Ventoux I should have been on a 50/34 with a 32 cog and I wasn't. Barely made it up.


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## wradom

Agree to disagree I guess Looking at the bianchi infinito sz 61 (current) to a warbird sz 58 (prospective) we're talking mm's of difference in terms of rider position and wheelbase, I'll probably slam the stem on the warbird and put my spare 17* stem on it to see how aggressive it can get but in reality that is much more aggressive than the 10* slammed stem I run on the road now..


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## Jay Strongbow

wradom said:


> My goal here is to be able to be competitive on the road 1st, then be able to throw some gearing around for the 5-10 other days of the year.
> I know I don't necessarily need standard gearing to be competitive but I'd rather have it as an option at the very least.
> The more I look at this the more it looks like I'll end up with the first bike that got me looking at this, a Salsa Warbird. Which has no issues running a 53/39 and has almost the exact geo as my current road bike..


You need to look at a gear chart and learn that a 53 isn't going to help you in crits at all over a 50 unless you cruise around over 32 mph and are not capable of a cadence over 90.


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## wradom

I'll be honest I tend to race a bit like a locomotive anyway (my only win last year was a 30+ mile solo move) so the maneuverability aspect isn't something I'm super concerned with as long as I can still rail through corners and get as aero as I can. 

I'm in the midwest US, no real Ventoux comparisons that I'll have to fight my way over.. I'm sure that was awesome though.


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## wradom

I know that you're right, but I absolutely would hate having to spin at 120+rpm to stay in contact on a fast descent..


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## Trek_5200

wradom said:


> Agree to disagree I guess Looking at the bianchi infinito sz 61 (current) to a warbird sz 58 (prospective) we're talking mm's of difference in terms of rider position and wheelbase, I'll probably slam the stem on the warbird and put my spare 17* stem on it to see how aggressive it can get but in reality that is much more aggressive than the 10* slammed stem I run on the road now..


Sure no biggie. I guess you could make a similar argument about bringing an endurance bike to a crit race. Most prefer something closer to a Cannondale CAAD geometry for that. But really you should ride what feels best.


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## Jay Strongbow

wradom said:


> I know that you're right, but I absolutely would hate having to spin at 120+rpm to stay in contact on a fast descent..


That would be around 44 mph. In the mid-west? Okay. You say you don't have any tough climbs to worry about (to paraphrase).  Are there hills that only go down out there?


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## wradom

To throw a bit of finality onto this, I did talk to a Santa Cruz rep who said that a 53/39 chainset will definitely work on the Stigmata and its geo is definitely on par with any aggressive road bike setup I could possibly want. I guess those are the two choices I'm down to, and my lbs doesn't carry santa cruz, I have a feeling I'll be very happy with either one. I've definitely thought through all the options I've needed to, I'll update the thread when everything is done and dusted (and ridden!).


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## Marc

wradom said:


> One thing I hadn't considered as a problem is whether or not the frame can actually take the gearing. A lot of 'adventure' type bikes cannot take a 53 chainring, ran into this when I was finalizing a purchase of a Foundry overland (it tops out at 53), major buzzkill... Does anyone know if a Santa Cruz Stigmata can fit a 53/39 crank?


Then you're better served by having two bikes then.

Chainstay shaping to permit a 53 means less tire clearance.


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## wradom

There aren't any hills that are long/steep enough to make me worry about being really overgeared and blowing up, but someone always tries to attack on the descents and 40+ is really common.. It's something I'd definitely rather have and not need, than not have and need.. Pedaling at high rpm on descents always sketches me out anyway, personal preference is all.


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## Jay Strongbow

wradom said:


> There aren't any hills that are long/steep enough to make me worry about being really overgeared and blowing up, but someone always tries to attack on the descents and 40+ is really common.. It's something I'd definitely rather have and not need, than not have and need.. Pedaling at high rpm on descents always sketches me out anyway, personal preference is all.


yeah, it probably won't matter one way or the other where you live for road and you can just deal with whatever might be lacking off road.
I have pretty much ordinary road gearing on my gravel/trail bike and it's not uncommon for that to not be enough on steep trails.....but taking a little walk in the woods certainly doesn't bother me.


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## Superdave3T

MMsRepBike said:


> Gravel: Long wheel base, long chainstays, low bottom bracket, slack angles.
> Crit: Short wheelbase, short chainstays, high bottom bracket, sharp angles.


Going to 650B for gravel really negates the need for the long stays, wheelbase, and low BB.


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