# Dogma Sizing Question



## mykol77

I currently have a Dogma 60.1 in size 53. I have a feeling that I'm in between sizes 53 and 51.5. Currently, top tube wise I'm all good (running a 110mm stem) but I feel that seat tube length wise the 53 is too tall for me. I'm thinking of getting a 51.5 for my next upgrade but I fear that by downsizing to the 51.5 the reduction in head tube length will tilt me too aggressively. I have the stem slammed now and the seat post is in up to half the "A" in DOGMA.

Additionally, I know the DOGMA 2 has a .5cm shorter seat tube compared to my Dogma 60.1 in the same size. But I think I'll need more than .5cm to play with.

So to recap, do you guys think downsizing to the 51.5 would be a problem for me?


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## Nicole Hamilton

There's the $6000 question!

I suspect I'm also in between a 51.5 and a 53. In December, I rode a 2011 Dogma in 54 and a Paris in 51.5. The Dogma was clearly too big, complete with the usual "straddling a fence" feeling. The Paris instantly felt great. But it was late in the day and I didn't get a lot of time on the Paris. They also didn't have a 53, so I never found out how that would have felt. (And once I realized they weren't going to be competitive on price and that I wouldn't be buying from them, it didn't seem fair to go back just to ride their bikes for free.) I also have a professional (very detailed) fitting I paid for using Cyfac's system and comparing it to the Pinarello geometry best I can (they're not 100% comparable) suggests I'm between the 51.5 and 53.

In the end, I decided to order a Paris in 51.5. My thinking was that traditional wisdom used to be (back in day, 38 years ago when I bought my Paramount) that if you're struggling to choose, go with with the smaller frame because it'll be lighter and easier to control. (Who knows if that's still the conventional wisdom but if it's not, perhaps someone can step in to comment.) Also, you can do things like spacers to fix something that's a little too small but fixing something that's a little too big is another matter entirely.

The swing factor, though, was the crank. I've been on 170s for 38 years. Two years ago, I had an overuse injury in my right knee. I recovered (with a few months of PT) but it was definitely a reminder that good health can be quite fragile. I've made it 61 years; let's not screw it up now. I love bicycling and I'm not interested to risk that. I know 170s work for me and that's what's on the 51.5. Size 53 uses the "proportionally" larger 172.5.

I'm still waiting for the Paris to arrive (CC told me they received it from Gita yesterday) and I'm pretty sure I made the right decision or, at least, a pretty good one. But that doesn't mean I'm not a little scared. After all, this is a $6000 bike. Let's do something dumb. Yesterday, I was back on the phone with CC for some handholding, reassuring me down out of the tree one last time before they ship it to me.

I think I'm going to be very happy with my choice. But my goodness, I'm going to feel a lot better after I've had the bike for a while and have had a chance to confirm that.

For comparison to your own situation, I'm 5'9", with a 32.2" inseam, 56" shoulder height and 41.8" arm length.


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## mykol77

Nicole Hamilton said:


> There's the $6000 question!
> 
> I suspect I'm also in between a 51.5 and a 53. In December, I rode a 2011 Dogma in 54 and a Paris in 51.5. The Dogma was clearly too big, complete with the usual "straddling a fence" feeling. The Paris instantly felt great. But it was late in the day and I didn't get a lot of time on the Paris. They also didn't have a 53, so I never found out how that would have felt. (And once I realized they weren't going to be competitive on price and that I wouldn't be buying from them, it didn't seem fair to go back just to ride their bikes for free.) I also have a professional (very detailed) fitting I paid for using Cyfac's system and comparing it to the Pinarello geometry best I can (they're not 100% comparable) suggests I'm between the 51.5 and 53.
> 
> In the end, I decided to order a Paris in 51.5. My thinking was that traditional wisdom used to be (back in day, 38 years ago when I bought my Paramount) that if you're struggling to choose, go with with the smaller frame because it'll be lighter and easier to control. (Who knows if that's still the conventional wisdom but if it's not, perhaps someone can step in to comment.) Also, you can do things like spacers to fix something that's a little too small but fixing something that's a little too big is another matter entirely.
> 
> The swing factor, though, was the crank. I've been on 170s for 38 years. Two years ago, I had an overuse injury in my right knee. I recovered (with a few months of PT) but it was definitely a reminder that good health can be quite fragile. I've made it 61 years; let's not screw it up now. I love bicycling and I'm not interested to risk that. I know 170s work for me and that's what's on the 51.5. Size 53 uses the "proportionally" larger 172.5.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the Paris to arrive (CC told me they received it from Gita yesterday) and I'm pretty sure I made the right decision or, at least, a pretty good one. But that doesn't mean I'm not a little scared. After all, this is a $6000 bike. Let's do something dumb. Yesterday, I was back on the phone with CC for some handholding, reassuring me down out of the tree one last time before they ship it to me.
> 
> I think I'm going to be very happy with my choice. But my goodness, I'm going to feel a lot better after I've had the bike for a while and have had a chance to confirm that.
> 
> For comparison to your own situation, I'm 5'9", with a 32.2" inseam, 56" shoulder height and 41.8" arm length.


Thank for the very through rough response. I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam (I have a long torso). After researching on this topic the whole afternoon, I think downsizing to a 51.5 shouldn't be a problem. My fitter keeps telling me to lower the saddle an additional 5cm and that would probably somewhat even out the head tube reduction on the smaller 51.5 Dogma. Oh well, should have gotten it right the first time. 

Then again maybe I should go for a sloping top tube frame, A Spesh SL4 maybe. In comparable size they have a more relaxed geometry which might be good for longer rides (not that I have any existing problems with my position now).

Please feel free to update this post with your experience on your Paris once you get it from CC. I'd love to know how your "fitting in" your new bike. Congrats!


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## AnthonyL88

mykol77 said:


> Thank for the very through rough response. I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam (I have a long torso). After researching on this topic the whole afternoon, I think downsizing to a 51.5 shouldn't be a problem. My fitter keeps telling me to lower the saddle an additional 5cm and that would probably somewhat even out the head tube reduction on the smaller 51.5 Dogma. Oh well, should have gotten it right the first time.
> 
> Then again maybe I should go for a sloping top tube frame, A Spesh SL4 maybe. In comparable size they have a more relaxed geometry which might be good for longer rides (not that I have any existing problems with my position now).
> 
> Please feel free to update this post with your experience on your Paris once you get it from CC. I'd love to know how your "fitting in" your new bike. Congrats!


I'm 5' 71/2" with a 30" inseam. My Dogma2 frame is a size 50cm.


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## Nicole Hamilton

mykol77 said:


> Then again maybe I should go for a sloping top tube frame, A Spesh SL4 maybe


I'm so traditional after so long on a chrome-lugged Reynolds 531 frame, it's quite daring for to me to try carbon. But I draw the line at top tubes. Those have to be level. Sloping top tubes just don't look right to me.


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## mykol77

Nicole Hamilton said:


> I'm so traditional after so long on a chrome-lugged Reynolds 531 frame, it's quite daring for to me to try carbon. But I draw the line at top tubes. Those have to be level. Sloping top tubes just don't look right to me.


Ha! Yes, I agree if it was not for my short legs and long torso.

As for trying out a CF frame you won't regret it. I came from a Trek 2.1 before upgrading to a Pina FP3 and then to the Dogma and I have to say upgrading from Aluminum to CF was a world of difference. You are gunna love your Paris!


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## socal-k

I am 5'8" with a 32" inseam. I ride a 53" FPQuatro with 172.5mm cranks, a 100mm stem and 110mm of seat post showing. My LBS fit me with several follow up adjustments over two weeks. Not sure how you guys are riding 51.5 at 5'9"...


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## Nicole Hamilton

socal-k said:


> I am 5'8" with a 32" inseam. I ride a 53" FPQuatro with 172.5mm cranks, a 100mm stem and 110mm of seat post showing. My LBS fit me with several follow up adjustments over two weeks. Not sure how you guys are riding 51.5 at 5'9"...


Maybe I have short legs and long torso or some other oddness and don't know it. I can't say. All I know is that I am 5'9" and I've now got enough experience (a bit over 200 miles and all my adjustments finished) to confirm that the 51.5 works perfectly for me. Funny thing was that when I got all done tweaking, not because I set out to do this (I started out trying to set things according to my fitting instructions) but because it wasn't comfortable until I did, I ended up with almost exactly the same riding position as I have on my Paramount but on this much more compact, agile frame. Seat to BB angle is exactly the same. Seat to pedal at full extension is exactly the same. Crank arm length is exactly the same. (I tried the 172.5s they sent in error and they hurt my knees.) I also ended up with the same Brooks saddle after discovering that the Most Ocelot was really just a torture device.

The only thing that ended up changing was the reach to the bars, which came a little closer and dropped a little, exactly as I'd intended.

The bike fits me. But that's not to say I might not have been able to recreate the same riding position on the next size up. Who knows. I think there is overlap given the way you can move the seat up and down, etc.


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## tjjm36m3

If your seatpost clamp is at the "A" on the "Dogma" decal, then I think the 53cm is too big for you. Naturally the bike doesn't even look right if the the seatpost is that low. Remember Pinarello frames tend to run larger. A 53cm Pinarello seat tube length is more like a 55cm for other brands (Specialized, Trek, etc). I'm 5'11 with 32" inseam and ride a 53cm Dogma. The Specialized I once had was a 56cm and fitted me well.


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## mykol77

tjjm36m3 said:


> If your seatpost clamp is at the "A" on the "Dogma" decal, then I think the 53cm is too big for you. Naturally the bike doesn't even look right if the the seatpost is that low. Remember Pinarello frames tend to run larger. A 53cm Pinarello seat tube length is more like a 55cm for other brands (Specialized, Trek, etc). I'm 5'11 with 32" inseam and ride a 53cm Dogma. The Specialized I once had was a 56cm and fitted me well.


Yes. It is a tad big, although I am running a 110mm stem so I know length-wide I'm all good. I actually also ride a 54 Spesh. My next Pina will be a 51.5

And when I meant the "A" on the "DOGMA" decal, its viewed from the drive side where the orientation for the "DOGMA" decal is with the "D" pointing up. Like:

D
O
G
M
A


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## [email protected]

*Dogma Sizing and Standover height.*

I am 5'7" (170cm) with a 31' (79cm) inseam. 
This afternoon I had a fitting and compared my fit sizes to the Dogma 51.5 and the 50.
The one stumbling block that we had was standover height. 

I currently ride a compact frame with a 54.5 Top Tube but with a slanting toptube - compact frame - a Giant TCR. I am looking to make the move to the shorter toptube with the Dogma purchase but am wondering about standover height.

Any suggestions?


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## Nicole Hamilton

[email protected] said:


> I am 5'7" (170cm) with a 31' (79cm) inseam.
> This afternoon I had a fitting and compared my fit sizes to the Dogma 51.5 and the 50.
> The one stumbling block that we had was standover height.


How much of a standover problem do you have? I assume you mean that when you lift the handlebars, you get the front wheel only maybe a couple inches off the ground (give or take) before it hits you? That's what you should expect with a flat top tube. Given your inseam (I'm 32.2 on a 51.5 Paris), I suspicious the 51.5 would be too big. The 50 should be okay, but could be a tiny bit big. Unfortunately, it's a big jump to 46.5, the next size down, so that one might be too small.


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## Yangpei

I am 5' 10" with a 32.5" inseam and I ride a 55cm Dogma 60.1. I also have a Willier Cento1 (large) and a Moota Vampots CR (56 cm). All 3 bikes are running 100 mm stems. When I was ordering my Dogma, I was deciding between 54 and 55 cm sizes. I'm glad I opted for the 55.


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## Frankie13

51.5 Dogma2 here. I'm 5.8 and my inseam is 33. It fits great and came of a 55cm 2008 Prince. It was to big and didn't look sized right. I'm sure I could easily ride a 53 Dogma as well and it would look right sized as well.


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## mykol77

Frankie13 said:


> 51.5 Dogma2 here. I'm 5.8 and my inseam is 33. It fits great and came of a 55cm 2008 Prince. It was to big and didn't look sized right. I'm sure I could easily ride a 53 Dogma as well and it would look right sized as well.


Do you have any spacers under the stem and how long of a stem are you using?


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## Frankie13

I have one 10mm spacer and a 120X42 Most Talon integrated handlebar. I could slam the stem, but I ride close to 200mi just on the weekend and the extra 10mm spacer us just perfect for those long rides.


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## mykol77

Frankie13 said:


> I have one 10mm spacer and a 120X42 Most Talon integrated handlebar. I could slam the stem, but I ride close to 200mi just on the weekend and the extra 10mm spacer us just perfect for those long rides.


Perfect. I'm currently have the 110X42 slammed. So downsizing would have me running a 120x42 with a 10mm spacer to approximate my current saddle to handlebar drop. Thanks!


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## Frankie13

My saddle handlebar drop is 9cm with a saddle height of 73cm from center BB to top of saddle (middle)


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## mykol77

Frankie13 said:


> My saddle handlebar drop is 9cm with a saddle height of 73cm from center BB to top of saddle (middle)


Thanks Frankie! Do you think you can post a picture showing how much seatpost is showing on your Dogma? I'm curious to know since my center BB to top of saddle is 28" .7 inch lower than what you have now.


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## Frankie13

Here you go mykol77. I hope this will help since buying a new frame isn't exactly cheap.
Please note, these pictures have been taken first week January when I just finished the build and they show 20mm spacers. I was more then 2,5 month of the bike because of some skin issues and had to get my flex back before I started to remove 10mm of spacers and did cut down the fork tube.The saddle height stayed the same and is still like the picture shows.
I also changed the saddle to an all white Romin Evo Pro but didn't change the height of the seat.


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## mykol77

Thank you soo much Frankie. The pics look familiar, I think we bought our frames from the same place. I also see we prefer the same saddles. I have an sworks toupe on my Dogma and the Romin Evo Pro on my Spesh. Tried all the nice Italian saddles but my butt still preferred the Spesh saddles. LOL.

Have you ridden the Dogma 60.1, if so, can you give a comparision? Any real noticeable difference?! And are those HEDS tubulars or clinchers?


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## Frankie13

No problem, I always love to help out a fellow cyclist. I have not ridden a Dogma but came of a Pinarello Prince. I can not help you with a comparison between the two Dogma's. The wheels are HED Stinger 6 Tubular with a Power Tap Pro SL+ , and the front HED Stinger 4 Tubular and have the new Continental Competition 25mm mounted. I also have a set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra two, but the new wider HED rim design makes this for me the best wheels I have ever ridden, and have not used my Boras since last year June. 
I just started my own Rennrad Camp and coaching Buisness and became a HED wheel dealer as well. I love my Dogma2, but I also just did build another Bike that I use for my Cycling camps and training, and it's an Canyon Ultimate CF.


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## mykol77

Frankie13 said:


> No problem, I always love to help out a fellow cyclist. I have not ridden a Dogma but came of a Pinarello Prince. I can not help you with a comparison between the two Dogma's. The wheels are HED Stinger 6 Tubular with a Power Tap Pro SL+ , and the front HED Stinger 4 Tubular and have the new Continental Competition 25mm mounted. I also have a set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra two, but the new wider HED rim design makes this for me the best wheels I have ever ridden, and have not used my Boras since last year June.
> I just started my own Rennrad Camp and coaching Buisness and became a HED wheel dealer as well. I love my Dogma2, but I also just did build another Bike that I use for my Cycling camps and training, and it's an Canyon Ultimate CF.


Would love to get those HEDs if only they were clinchers...


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## Frankie13

mykol77 said:


> Would love to get those HEDs if only they were clinchers...


Well, PM and we can look into it. The also come as clincher version. 
Like I said shoot me a PM.


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## mykol77

Frankie13 said:


> Well, PM and we can look into it. The also come as clincher version.
> Like I said shoot me a PM.


All carbon clincher with the ghosted decals? When the time comes, I'll pm you.


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## Frankie13

At this moment the clincher version only comes with an aluminum brake track with the carbon aero part bonded to it. The ghost or all blacked HED decals are designed and made by me and not available from Hed, but I can provide them.


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## gibson00

Don't suppose anyone has a pick of a 53cm setup with a 73cm saddle height?
I too feel I am between sizes. I am 5'10 with a short inseam. I think my saddle height is about 73.3cm. I currently ride a 54cm Cervelo S3, which has a 54.8 eff. top tube, and 14cm head tube, with just the 2cm top cap under the stem. I run a 120 stem.

It seems like the 53cm Dogma would be on the tall side for me, but the right length. The 51.5 might need an extra spacer, and would probably need a 130 stem....


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## gibson00

....................


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## mykol77

gibson00 said:


> Don't suppose anyone has a pick of a 53cm setup with a 73cm saddle height?
> I too feel I am between sizes. I am 5'10 with a short inseam. I think my saddle height is about 73.3cm. I currently ride a 54cm Cervelo S3, which has a 54.8 eff. top tube, and 14cm head tube, with just the 2cm top cap under the stem. I run a 120 stem.
> 
> It seems like the 53cm Dogma would be on the tall side for me, but the right length. The 51.5 might need an extra spacer, and would probably need a 130 stem....


Here is my current setup. 53cm Dogma 60.1 with 28.5" saddle height. Seat post height is ok if I'm using a flat, minimally padded saddle but looks too low when I need to lower it by .25-.50 inches when I opted for a more curved saddle with more substantial padding.

Currently running a 110 stem. If I upgrade to a 51.5 I'll will need a 120 stem. And of course I dont have any spacers below the stem now. :thumbsup:


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## gibson00

mykol77 said:


> Here is my current setup. 53cm Dogma 60.1 with 28.5" saddle height. Seat post height is ok if I'm using a flat, minimally padded saddle but looks too low when I need to lower it by .25-.50 inches when I opted for a more curved saddle with more substantial padding.
> 
> Currently running a 110 stem. If I upgrade to a 51.5 I'll will need a 120 stem. And of course I dont have any spacers below the stem now. :thumbsup:




Thanks. If I'm calculating right, your saddle height is about 72.5cm. Looks higher than I would have expected. Perhaps a 53cm wouldn't be so bad for me for height after all. I wish I had a local shop that stocked them so I could try in person...


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## mykol77

gibson00 said:


> Thanks. If I'm calculating right, your saddle height is about 72.5cm. Looks higher than I would have expected. Perhaps a 53cm wouldn't be so bad for me for height after all. I wish I had a local shop that stocked them so I could try in person...


trying one in person would be the best option but its hard to find a bike shop that would stock multiple sizes. I'm 5'10" but have long torso and short legs. When I get my next dogma it would definitely be a 51.5 that if they don't change the current geometry for the dogma 2


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## gibson00

Sounds like you and I are same height and almost same inseam. Lets trade bikes for a couple weeks..


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## gibson00

.....whoops, never mind, missed your comment about the spacers


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## mykol77

gibson00 said:


> .....whoops, never mind, missed your comment about the spacers


lol yes I'll just need to add one 10mm spacer to approximate my drop in my current setup. And additionally they have actually made the headtube height higher on the Dogma 2 vs. the Dogma 60.1


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## Yangpei

I'm also 5'10" and my 55cm Dogma's saddle height is 74 cm. I'm running a 100mm stem. I f you want more standover, you can go with either 54 or 53. But, 51.5 sounds small. 



gibson00 said:


> Don't suppose anyone has a pick of a 53cm setup with a 73cm saddle height?
> I too feel I am between sizes. I am 5'10 with a short inseam. I think my saddle height is about 73.3cm. I currently ride a 54cm Cervelo S3, which has a 54.8 eff. top tube, and 14cm head tube, with just the 2cm top cap under the stem. I run a 120 stem.
> 
> It seems like the 53cm Dogma would be on the tall side for me, but the right length. The 51.5 might need an extra spacer, and would probably need a 130 stem....


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## antihero77

I ride a 53 dogma2. With a 100mm stem. I am 5'9 and have a inseam of 33. 
This machine is as comfy as a lazyboy chair with the headset slammed. 
This is my first dogma. I came off a Roubaix expert and what a difference. By far the best bike I have ever ridden. So responsive. Goes when you hit the pedals. And descends with confidence. 
I can not express how amazing this bike is. Anyone thinking of getting this bike GET IT.


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## mykol77

antihero77 said:


> I ride a 53 dogma2. With a 100mm stem. I am 5'9 and have a inseam of 33.
> This machine is as comfy as a lazyboy chair with the headset slammed.
> This is my first dogma. I came off a Roubaix expert and what a difference. By far the best bike I have ever ridden. So responsive. Goes when you hit the pedals. And descends with confidence.
> I can not express how amazing this bike is. Anyone thinking of getting this bike GET IT.


Can you post pics? I wanna see how your setup is in relation to seatpost height.


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## antihero77

mykol77 said:


> Can you post pics? I wanna see how your setup is in relation to seatpost height.


Sure I will try to snap it tonight and show you.


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## antihero77

Sorry best i can give you right now is a pic taken by my iphone


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## antihero77

best i can do from my iphone


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## mykol77

That's weird, I really must have short legs. I'm 5'10" with a real inseam of 32" (book at crotch method) and 30" pant inseam and my seatpost is at least a couple of inches lower than yours in the picture.


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## antihero77

Mykol post a pic of yours


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## mykol77

antihero77 said:


> Mykol post a pic of yours


I actually did. Look up several posts. It's the image of a red Dogma 60.1 with Easton wheels.


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## jathanas

mykol77 said:


> I actually did. Look up several posts. It's the image of a red Dogma 60.1 with Easton wheels.


We're about the same height and after a few changes to my set-up yesterday we seem to have the same amount of seatpost exposed. 

Your bike looks just fine!


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