# Canadian LBS robbing us blind!



## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

After years of shopping at my local LBS for everything I have finally seen the light. Buy on line and save big bucks! What is it with Canadian retailers and why are we paying so much for stuff that can be found for much less on line. Yes I know sometimes its the wholesaler that is doing the gouging. But the exchange rate is 1.045 ....we are getting HOSED! Here in Calgary some places are charging more than double what you can buy stuff on line for.(even after shipping and the unfortunate luck CPS dings you for tax and duty) I for one will no longer buy anything from an LBS that I can get on line for less. :thumbsup:


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## Sixty Fiver (Jul 7, 2007)

It's just not bikes and parts that can be found cheaper online... conventional stores just can't compete with online retailers as they have things like staffing, buildings, insurance, and utilities to cover.

I'm just up the road in Edmonton where things are pretty much the same as they are in Cowtown.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Having to charge more than an online service is understandable. Staffing here in Calgary is probably more expensive then the rest of the country. But some times their prices are even higher than the manufacturers suggested retail price.Thats called robbery!


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## IcemanYVR (Jul 27, 2006)

It's not always the LBS. On many of the items, the LBS' cost is more that we can buy it for in the US. The distributors are usually the culprits, more so than the LBS.

FSA is one of the worst, along with Mavic (distributed by Outdoor Gear Canada).

Companies like Cervelo have figured it out, the bikes are the same price in Canada as in the US.

Some of the LBS do charge too much markup, especially in this day and age, but they don't start at the same place as do their American counterparts.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

+1 on the distributors......That is the true problem, not the LBS!!! Things begin cheaper online is to be expected, but the price discrepancy between Canadian LBS and US LBS is all due to the distributors in Canada sticking it the Canadian LBS...Then of course we get screwed, or we buy online...


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

rbart4506 said:


> +1 on the distributors......That is the true problem, not the LBS!!! Things begin cheaper online is to be expected, but the price discrepancy between Canadian LBS and US LBS is all due to the distributors in Canada sticking it the Canadian LBS...Then of course we get screwed, or we buy online...


I wouldn't blame it all on the suppliers some stores are just plain greedy.

If we keep buying on line and leave LBS to fend for themselves maybe someday they will fight their suppliers for better pricing. Either that or they could just start boycotting certain manufacturers.

It really is pathetic though when you consider how much the Canadian dollar has increased in value and we save ZIPO when you want to spend it in your own country. Its not just bikes, new cars cost 15 to 20% more in Canada even after you take in the exchange rate.


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

my buddy actually drove all the way from Toronto to Detroit to buy a Cervelo P3C... of course he's a crazy tri guy so he'd try anything. Yeah, I haven't bought much from any of the LBSs around my area because everything is so goddamn expensive... roll that in with Tax and they have a party. It's probably a bit of the supplier and a bit of the shop... it all depends on how aware the shop are of the Online threat... I know one LBS who gives deals on accessories and most items in his store just so we'll buy there and not online.. another store i know will grab you for whatever he can, so basically, its how positively and negatively a LBS approaches it, they either concede defeat against the online sellers and try to rip you, or they'll try to make up the difference with volume.


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## Kenacycle (May 28, 2006)

I've been buying online from Probikekit or Ebay. The only time I buy from LBS is when I need something ASAP and am willing to pay premium. 

Another thing, why is Powergel or GU so much more expensive in Canada than the US??
A pack of Powergel or GU cost CAD$2 each, while in the US it's around US$0.80-$1 each.

I bought 6 GU from my LBS for CAD$13, while a week later I was in Seattle and found a BOX of 24 GU for US$19.

Day Light Robbery!!


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

I try to by everything from Mountain Equipment Co-Op (supplies/food)
Then if I need parts I buy from:
probikekit.com 
procyclingdiscount.com
universalcycles.com

Their prices are lower than what the canadian distributor charges the local bike stores in Canada. You can blame it on outdoorgear Canada, Norco and 1 other canadian distributor who have the canadian market in a stranglehold.

I can take the items I buy online from USA, pay taxes, brokerage fees, shipping and still manage to undercut the local bike store. 

Now with the dollar so strong it is a no brainer. I remember when 68 cents US bought 1 CAD. Even then you were saving money buy going mail order/internet USA. 

Now with the 96 cents US equaling one 1 CAD. It's like everything is 30% cheaper! Craziness!


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

i buy nothing from the LBS. All online for me. Delivered to family/friends in the US, and picked up by myself...

This is one aspect I wish the Dominion of Canada would further promote/allow for.. that being the streamlining of online commerce and shipping.

...won't happen though....taxes are fun


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## wayneanneli (Jul 8, 2004)

When I go back to Montreal, I usually stock up on certain things at MEC, but I otherwise buy over the Internet here in Sweden. Their prices aren't great, but not so bad that I feel like I'm getting taken. It would just cost too much for me to ask my family in Canada to mail over packages of stuff for me, both in time and money for shipping. It's just easier for me to suck it up and buy locally. However, on occasion, I have had an American living here, but travelling to the US bring, back certain items that are definitely not available here.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Mecs prices are not all that fabulous anymore. Their selection has really taken a nose dive as far as cycle clothing is concerned. And cycle shoes! Its great that they sell Sidis if you have small feet other wise FORGEDABOUTIT I've been waiting for some 47s for the last 6 weeks.


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## f1junkie (Feb 19, 2006)

Just received a Dura Ace crankset last week all the way from Japan. Arrived in a week to my door and cost me just a bit over cost here. Anyone able to get a brand new DA crankset here for around $400? Doubt it...

Sadly, I do a lot of shopping online, I've gotten everything for my bike except for the wheels, and that's including the frame! Tough for the shops to compete...

Dave


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## kanfive (Jun 25, 2007)

CDN$950 for an entry level Specialized Allez? Come on Canada...


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## iherald (Oct 13, 2005)

i know a lot of the distributors do one catalogue a year. so perhaps the 08 version will have better pricing.


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## hooligan (Sep 30, 2006)

Cheers! said:


> I try to by everything from Mountain Equipment Co-Op (supplies/food)
> Then if I need parts I buy from:
> probikekit.com
> procyclingdiscount.com
> ...


THIS IS THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE...A MIDDLE MAN BETWEEN THE MANUFACTURER AND THE STORES...I AM QUITE A GOOD FREIND OF A SHOP OWNER AND HE IS CONSIDERING PACKING UP AND GOING BACK TO HIS TRADE BECAUSE HE CAN'T COMPETE WITH ONLINE SHOPPING...THOSE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE OVERHEAD A SHOP DOES

DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR LOCAL BIKE SHOP THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT 

P.S. WARRANTY SUPPORT IS A LOT DIFFERENT ONLINE...IF I SOMETHING BREAKS I GET A NEW ONE RIGHT AWAY FROM MY LBS

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS


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## zunow (Feb 27, 2007)

its not the LBS, its the guys in the middle. What the LBS has to get is that if they are going to survive they need to prune the middle men out by making their purchases online. i am happy to support my LBS, but i am not going to subsidize them. Business models are changing all around us, so to must our LBS way of doing business, lest they become a dinosaur!


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## jhbeeton (Dec 8, 2004)

*short sighted behaviour...*

The great products that we ogle over online only exist because of the past ingenuity of some backyard garage or mom and pop based shop owner putting pen to paper and cutting tool to metal?

If you take out the human contact element out of the bicycle retail, we will soon be relegated to email notifications of the release of the new online price lists for generic products made oversees coming in 12 different colors and sizes s, m & l.

My bikeshop is becoming a place to get together, a place to find out new things and to debate the merits of the old vs the new. It's a place where a complete stranger walks in and has the opportunity to share a fine espresso and perhaps get fitted for a new set of shoes or splurges on some new handlebar tape that matches his custom singlespeed 29'er.

Think of all the silly questions that you see on line that are more likely to be solved in the comfort of a professional shop run by professionals ... is it the right one for me? Does the color match my eyes? Should I order a 54 or 56cm frame? Ride it, see it, touch it!

My LBS owner is a pal of mine ... I didn't know him before I began seeking a custom build Orbea Onix for my wife. We hit if off during the process and have since developed a long lasting friendship.

Can you say the same for the 20% you think you saved with the online checkout or the faceless voice on the other side of the 1-800 line?

When did you last participate in a group ride put on by probikefit.com or get shoes custom fit by MEC?

Don't get ripped off, get educated on where your money is going ... 

Professional bike shops have been around longer than cars ... they will evolve with the changing times and consumers will benefit if they take time to invest their own time and purchasing power to support those that take the initiative to bring more value to you than the "wholesale" online offerings.

I spin around online to see what others are talking about and to contribute to the conversation once and a while... I hope that my little contribution offsets some of the other sentiments that have dominated this discussion.

Julian


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

jhbeeton said:


> The great products that we ogle over online only exist because of the past ingenuity of some backyard garage or mom and pop based shop owner putting pen to paper and cutting tool to metal?
> 
> If you take out the human contact element out of the bicycle retail, we will soon be relegated to email notifications of the release of the new online price lists for generic products made oversees coming in 12 different colors and sizes s, m & l.
> 
> ...



So everything we buy is created by a shop owner?

A lot of silly questions on line! mine included have been answered on line. by forums like this not my LBS.
I get along with people at my LBS, but when they price things above suggested retail and then offer me a discount friendships are soon forgotten.

The fact that your comparing MEC to PBK makes me suspicious about your motives. People who shop at MEC know where their money is going.

Bike shops in Canada are not evolving fast enough. Extinction is knocking on their back door.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

SCC said:


> Bike shops in Canada are not evolving fast enough. Extinction is knocking on their back door.


I agree wholeheartedly!!! To the poster above, good for you that you have a supposed great LBS, but those are few and far between. An example is this past Friday when I decided to check out some LBS's around Hamilton and Mississauga. All I found was a limited selection of stuff and/or old stock at somewhat discounted prices, but still too high. The thing that gets me is why the shops around here aren't putting their old stock on ebay?? Or just pricing the stuff to get it out the door. Do they really think I'm going to buy a 2 year old helmet, shoes, gloves, shorts, jersey...etc...for 15% off....When I can get this years model for 30% off??

Not to mention walking into some shops and not even getting asked if you need help?? Cripes if I want to hunt and peck through a bunch of stuff I'll do that online...

Plus! I find most of the shops have a very limited knowledge about the products they sell and especially products that have problems. If I had a dollar for everytime I hear the statement "we've never seen that problem before" on whatever part I'm having a problem with, I'd have a bunch of dollars...Fact is if I go online I usually run into a number of threads where people are having the same problem. Why aren't they online researching their product lines to see if there are issues...Don't tell me they don't have time...It's called market research.

I think anyone who just lives and breaths LBS's is really losing out...

The internet is wealth of information and the deals are plentiful, but you must balance that with the LBS support.

It just burns me when the do gooders come on here and blast people for using the internet and basically saying you are wrong for not supporting your LBS....Well I support mine, I've bought every bike I own at one, but the rest of the stuff gets bought where I can get the best price.

The more money I safe now, the more money I can spend at the LBS buying the next bike...


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Being Canadian, and having lived in the US for the past 10 months now, I can confirm - yes, Canadians are definitely being ripped off in many ways. Just take a look at the MSRP's for the exact same bike on the US site, vs. the Canadian site - you'll see what I mean. And if you think bikes are bad...look at cars! I can buy a 2008 Infiniti G35 after negotiations and taxes for about US$ 33 - 34K on the road. That same car...no chance to get it for < C$ 50K by the time taxes are done.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Someone is making a ton of cash on the higher Canadian dollar and it sure isn't us...the consumer...Is it the LBS?? I doubt that too, but I really think somewhere along the line we are getting shafted....


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Having spent many years working in a LBS I can safely say that it is not the shop that is raking in the dough. OGC, Norco, and Cycles Lambert are the three big offenders here. OCG offers a discount to shop staff of 15% below cost. But a set of Ksyiums at cost less 15% is still more than what you can get them for online. OGC is taking huge margins on Mavic products. So blame them.


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## porage (Sep 8, 2007)

An LBS Owner weighs in.

Hey guys interesting thread. A topic that can incense any LBS operator. I think there is the usual internet VS LBS thread that I won't comment on. Anyone trying to touch a product... there is an obvious cost to that. If you're someone that doesn't need to ask a bunch of questions, solicit opinions from paid staff standing in a high rent building shouldn't feel they have to pay for that overhead. In my estimation that overhead is approx 10%-15% of the cost of the product in an LBS.

I think everyone should calm down just a bit in terms of the dollar. Most products are currency converted and locked in during the fall marketing season. Because most things are made overseas in large quantities and floated over, it would not be economically feasible to fluctuate the price of products in an international market. Remember a year ago the Canadian dollar was not nearly as strong. During very abnormal years like this, the Canadian consumer gets hosed. Hopefully when the US dollar corrects itself, the reverse will hold true and we'll get a few months of great cost savings.

Any product that I purchase directly from the US (Litespeed, ZIPP, Chrome Bags) the savings get passed on directly to the consumer. So for the Zipp 404 buyer that means a $300 savings buying it now, instead of December of last year. Cycles Lambert has just become the Canadian supplier so that opportunity it gone. 

What drives me insane is that I do have accounts with some major US distributors, like QBP. So I do see the 10-15% difference that I get charged here in Canada. Unfortunately QBP can't sell me FSA, I have to buy it from Orange sport supply in Canada.

The challenge of being a supplier in Canada is that you are trying to service a larger land mass with a much smaller population. If anyone remembers pre-NAFTA remember all the **** in the 80s we couldn't even buy. 

This message is getting long and hopefully flames will be limited. If the problem was simple it wouldn't exist. But with fluctuating currencies, grey marketers, middle men charging too much for what little service they offer, LBS store not staying on top of trends... it's a complex issue.

So if there is something that your LBS is charging too much on, the smart guy will chat with you. I won't move on my margins. The extra I charge pays for all my bills and at the end of the year maybe there is something left over for my family. So when someone tells me they can buy XX groupset for 5% above my wholesale, I know something isn't right. Occasionally it even means I find a different route to get the product, and pass those savings on. Unfortunately most is beyond my control and I hope that when the dollar goes back down to .67, most of the issues are solved. 

Not trying to justify anything. God knows if I could buy the product at the same price as competitvecyclist.com and get warranty issues resolved, I would in a hot damn!

my .02


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

One thing you can bet on when the dollar goes down to 67 cents we will still be getting hosed! Most people don't expect to pay internet prices at their LBS however if I can buy something and have it shipped half way around the world, get hit by customs and still pay 100 bucks total. Why should I fork over 165 bucks plus GST at all the LBS in my city?If they charged me 130 I might buy it from them but thats not going to happen. I'll keep my 75 bucks!
Thank you. 
On line outlets have overhead too they do pay for some kind of location or warehouse, staff etc. 

You guys are just going to have to put more pressure on the suppliers because in the end its your problem not the consumer.


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## lewdvig (Oct 4, 2004)

In Calgary, shop at Bow or Campione. If you buy lots of stuff there you will get good deals. Better than online or eBay.

In Edmonton I think Velocity and Union have good prices - especially when there are sales.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

lewdvig said:


> In Calgary, shop at Bow or Campione. If you buy lots of stuff there you will get good deals. Better than online or eBay.
> 
> In Edmonton I think Velocity and Union have good prices - especially when there are sales.



Bow is better than online:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :yikes: what have you been smoking. They're the most expensive in the city even if you get your 15% "discount":thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

Guys... the CDN dollar is at 97.X cents USD. There is not a single LBS in Canada or Online store in Canada that can compete against the USA mail order stores. I have found out and experieneced just recently that the stores in Hong Kong and some in Europe can even undercut the USA guys. WOW!


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

SCC said:


> You guys are just going to have to put more pressure on the suppliers because in the end its your problem not the consumer.


Exactly!

I like to support my LBS, and often do. But, there are far, far too many times that there is just such a huge price gap between online (be it, in the US or UK) vs LBS'. 

Case in point, I just bought a Record group for $1650CDN from the UK, arrived in 3-days. I owed $231 in taxes (which, I'd pay locally anyway). So, total = $1881 CDN, shipped.

That same group is listed at $3550 in the Marinoni catalogue. Hmmm. Cheapest I found in Canada was $2400 + taxes = $2736 CDN (vs $1881 CDN...you do the math). Something is wrong.

I've never liked distributors (OGC, Lambert, etc.). IMHO, they are taking way too much of the small pie and leaving the LBS hanging. I understand that items are purchased well in advance of the season and the dollar has surged since, but it doesn't appear that the distributors are discounting...instead, forcing the LBS to do it, which they can't.


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## IcemanYVR (Jul 27, 2006)

I've been meaning to add to this thread for a while.

It just goes to prove the distributors (OGC, Cycles Lambert, Marinoni, GWB, Norco, etc) don't care the least little bit about the LBS, or Canadian cyclists for that matter. They only care about the bottom line.

They pay the same amount for cycling products/gear as their American counterparts, yet jack up the prices to the point where they are making what should be the LBS's profit as well. I used to be in the bike business, and I am really glad that I have chosen another path.

My LBS has been very good to me, and that is where I will buy my bikes. All the staff know bikes, and they know cycling. I rarely buy stuff online, but I did buy my Chorus Group (for less then their cost) and a Eurus Wheelset online. The rest of the stuff I buy at the LBS, I don't usually even check the price online. I trust them to give me a fair deal for both of us, and they do. 

Now for the second part of my reply. Why are so many people conernced where those of use who support an LBS spend our money. It's our money and we can spend it however we please. If I want to spend an extra $50 or $100 to support my local shop so they will be there in the future, or give me the odd free service, then that is my perrogative. I don't need your unsolicited advice on how to manage my affairs. It's my money, and it's my business.


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## Sixty Fiver (Jul 7, 2007)

For the most part I really like our local shops and know most of the folks who work at them... there are some really knowledgable mechanics and good people behind the counters. 

I volunteer at our community shop (that does a huge volume of repairs) and have the good fortune to buy a good number of parts at wholesale. As a non profit society that only employs a few part time staff over the summer we don't have to make the same margins on sales so our prices on many things is much lower than the local shops.

We don't deal in the super high end but cater to everyday commuters and recrerational riders so don't step on the toes of the other shops too much which is good, as they support our society with donations of bikes and parts. 

The thing that a local shop has that online retailers don't is people... most of our shops are social hubs as well as bike shops.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Actually the dollar hasn't surged, it's been pretty high for the couple years. Only this year did the talk of it being on par start. I travel to the US yearly and I know that I haven't been concerned about the exchange rate for the last few years.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

We're at 99 cents whens the power of our dollar gonna kick in. PBK here I come:thumbsup:


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

98 cents... pffff!!

overseas trading right now has it at 1:1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shopping time!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Cheers! said:


> 98 cents... pffff!!
> 
> overseas trading right now has it at 1:1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> shopping time!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I heard a buck 4 or 5 is not out of the question in the next few days!!!! Time to book that Feb or March vacation.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*Good service means a lot*

Today I was able to exchange two rained out Sigma computers for a new one, albeit a much more expensive model. Bayview cycle here in Toronto gave me full credit on two old computers. You don't get that on-line

When my Ksyriums wheels with 10,000 km started to fail at the rim D'Ornellas sent them to the distributor, Outdoor Gear. They rebuilt the wheels with new rims and new hub bearings and it cost me some freight. I get free fittings and lots of good advice and same day service there as well.

When my Look CX7 pedals failed after 1000km I got no service or support from Total Cycling in Ireland. None at all. They just ignored my emails, kept the returned pedals and ceased contact.

Do I buy on-line. Yes lots, but I pick my spots. It depends on the price difference, the risk of failure or the possibility I will need to return it. Some stuff you can only get on-line or on e-bay where I have bought two bikes

I buy tires, chains, cassettes, pedals, brifters and a lot of the hard to get stuff for my vintage fix on-line. I buy wheels, clothing, shoes, a saddle and stuff I need quick at the LBS. I bought a complete front end with fork, headset, stem and bars at the LBS and had it installed.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Gee, hot topic on the news today" CANADIANS ARE GETTING RIPPED OFF" thats from more than one consumer group. Go ahead shop at your LBS if you're rich or like to throw away your money.:thumbsup:


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

I'm going broke buying bike goodies from the states... 
2 sets of Crankbrothers 4ti
Avid Juicy Ultimate Carbons... 

dang... then I picked up a new frame.....


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

I know, it's great! I'm about to buy a new Moots roadie! I've been to the local CanadaPost outlet 4 times this week for goodies from Santa. My Kidz think I'm nuts!


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## shorelocal (Jan 12, 2007)

Here's an option .. develop a relationship with an LBS in the States. That way you can get the service and warranty support and still save some coin over Canadian LBS's. I've been dealing with a shop in Oregon (tax free) for a couple years now, and they always give me great deals on parts ... sometimes better than online prices. Plus, in the many years I've been cycling, I've never had a warranty issue ... and that's with owning 4 bikes currently.


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

I've sent stuff back to the states via canada post to have the item warrantied. It wasn't a problem at all. 

I've taken a brand new bike that I bought at a bike show and brought it to the local bike store 2 blocks away. The fox fork bushing was defective. They pulled the old fork off, sent it back to fox fork service centre in Quebec somewhere and put it back on my bike. They originaly didn't want to charge me money for any of it, but I said that wasn't fair since I didn't buy the bike from there, and they didn't carry specialized. I paid them their standard price for installing a fork (30 bucks) because it didn't feel right just walking out not paying anything. 

In the end there are two options for companies for warranty. You deal with them directly (ie send it back to manufacturer via RMA) or you have to goto a local authorized dealer. Which is a local bike store.


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## kevlar1973 (Sep 22, 2005)

There are a couple of things that you are all missing. First the distributors in Canada pay duty or import tariffs on anything coming into Canada not covered under free trade. Second pricing is set annually and the distributor buys futures on the Canadian dollar giving him a consistent rate throughout the year. So for example if I buy futures right now I can probably get them for about $0.90 if the CND dollar suddenly drops to $0.70 I still get to buy at $0.90 and suddenly you would all be saving money buying from the LBS. Conversely if the dollar hit $1.10 I am still stuck buying them at $0.90. There is no other way to do it and maintain a consistent cost, retail and profit margin for the whole year. There are a lot of things that go on that you are maybe not aware of. 

The other thing is that this is business, people are in business to make money. If it was your business you would want to make money. Do you really think that a Cervelo P3C is worth $5000? No, a big part of pricing some times is based on market weight, i.e. what people are willing to pay for goods. A better example might be clothing, what do you think your $150 Banana Republic jeans cost to make? I would guess no more then $10 if that. The market weight though means that they can sell them for huge margin. If you could do the same thing don't tell me that you wouldn't.

Support your local shops, if you think these guys are all getting rich off of you shopping there your crazy. Most of them make less then most of you to be honest.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

kevlar1973 said:


> There are a couple of things that you are all missing. First the distributors in Canada pay duty or import tariffs on anything coming into Canada not covered under free trade. Second pricing is set annually and the distributor buys futures on the Canadian dollar giving him a consistent rate throughout the year. So for example if I buy futures right now I can probably get them for about $0.90 if the CND dollar suddenly drops to $0.70 I still get to buy at $0.90 and suddenly you would all be saving money buying from the LBS. Conversely if the dollar hit $1.10 I am still stuck buying them at $0.90. There is no other way to do it and maintain a consistent cost, retail and profit margin for the whole year. There are a lot of things that go on that you are maybe not aware of.
> 
> The other thing is that this is business, people are in business to make money. If it was your business you would want to make money. Do you really think that a Cervelo P3C is worth $5000? No, a big part of pricing some times is based on market weight, i.e. what people are willing to pay for goods. A better example might be clothing, what do you think your $150 Banana Republic jeans cost to make? I would guess no more then $10 if that. The market weight though means that they can sell them for huge margin. If you could do the same thing don't tell me that you wouldn't.
> 
> Support your local shops, if you think these guys are all getting rich off of you shopping there your crazy. Most of them make less then most of you to be honest.



The buck has been strong for the last couple of years but prices are still reflecting a 70 cent buck. How many years do Canucks have to wait? 

Price is always dictated by what the market will stand. Canadians have gotten used to paying high prices its only now they realize how much they are actually paying.

Of course the consumer expects to pay higher prices than buying on line, there is a limit .
As I mentioned before its up to the LBS to put pressure on their wholesaler if they want to survive. Drop product lines, search out new suppliers etc.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

kevlar1973 said:


> First the distributors in Canada pay duty or import tariffs on anything coming into Canada not covered under free trade. .


If I order something from the States, like say a set of Crossmax wheels, I still pay the Duty and taxes on it. And someone in the States is making money on that product having it shipped from France. But I can still get it for less than *dealer* cost in Canada. OGC is screwing Canadians.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

Why the heck do you guys think Cdn bike distributors buy all their products of the year in ONE HUGE LUMP SUM at the beginning of the year? That is the stupidest business practice I've ever heard of.
Its all about liquidity and not having to keep inventory.

Someone is profiting from the exchange rate. Its not the LBS, it could be the distributor, or the manufacturer.

Yes someone has to pay duties, but that's the same if I order online, so that is not a rational argument for the price difference.

The only argument that works is someone is making a lot of profit...


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

For stuff that are comparable in price, Internet vs. LBS, then buy LBS.
If there is a huge gap in price, then buying from LBS would just be silly. 

Survival of the fittest! If LBS is unable to negotiate better deals with distributors/ manufacturers when such large price gaps exist and they end up going out of business, so be it. Hopefully the next LBS owner has a better business model and can truly compete.

Re. who profits from the exchange rate - my guess is the manufacturer, if the manufacturer is US based. However, that's almost irrelevent. If I were a LBS owner in Canada, I would try to set-up co-ops (like grocery co-ops in the past) to negotiate better prices in face of the favourable exchange rates. Manufacturers aren't happy either when a segment of their business (i.e. their Cdn sales) goes to the drain because everyone's scrambling for cheaper inventory. In the end, the government is the only party that wins from all the additional duties collected by people RATIONALLY buying online due to uncompetitive prices.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

Agree on the first point. Agree on the 2nd point.

3rd, about the government winning, they would've won either way. The duties have to be paid whether I buy from the US, or a distributor imports a product.

What do you guys think the markup is for the Canadian Bike distributor?
I've always had my suspicions about what a LBS make on a bike (based on the industry I know), and its way higher than ppl normally on forums like this think. This was pretty much confirmed by a dealer I was just talking to about a Look 555.

I also know what Disti's make in my industry. I would've originally thought it followed as well, but I have sneaking suspicion that they make at least 20 points which is way too much in my book.

With a weak American Dollar, it doesnt make sense that American consumers can get a better price on a European Brand whos Euro has held relatively steady.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

kevlar1973 said:


> There are a couple of things that you are all missing. First the distributors in Canada pay duty or import tariffs on anything coming into Canada not covered under free trade.


Yep, so do I. When I get my parts from the US/UK, whatever, I pay my taxes and duties, if applicable. Some stuff sneaks through, but for the most part, I get dinged. Next....



> Second pricing is set annually and the distributor buys futures on the Canadian dollar giving him a consistent rate throughout the year.


I'd agree to an extent. I'm sure there's a lot of buying going-on right now in prep for 2008. But, there is also buying throughout the season, too, at different currency values. So, if they are buying now, then they are buying at par. When they filled their inventory this time last year, the dollar was lower. In order to sell old inventory, they'll have to adjust their prices. Simple as that. You can expect to keep inflated prices and still sell...or, maybe they do and that's the problem.

But, as a consumer, I have options and the market needs to adjust accordingly. If it's the CDN distributors business practice to buy all of their inventory at once and the currency suddenly surges, then you are SOL. Sorry, that's the gamble you took. I shouldn't have to pay for that...and, trust me, I don't. I spread the love around and shop in the US and UK because CDN prices are just too inflated.



> So for example if I buy futures right now I can probably get them for about $0.90 if the CND dollar suddenly drops to $0.70 I still get to buy at $0.90 and suddenly you would all be saving money buying from the LBS. Conversely if the dollar hit $1.10 I am still stuck buying them at $0.90. There is no other way to do it and maintain a consistent cost, retail and profit margin for the whole year. There are a lot of things that go on that you are maybe not aware of.


Oh yes, I'm aware of this...but, frankly, I don't care. It's my $$ and I'll spend it accordingly. OGC, Lambert, Norco, etc are all taking way, way too much of the pie! So, I just spend my money outside Canada and keep it out of their deep pockets. It's unfortunate, but at the end of the day, it's my hard-earned money and no one can tell me how to spend it. 



> The other thing is that this is business, people are in business to make money. If it was your business you would want to make money.


Yep, certainly. But, at the same time, I'm not out to blow my money inexplicably when I have perfectly viable options elsewhere that are 50% off. There's something wrong with the pricing/distribution structure when I can buy Item X from the US/UK at 50% less (if not more) than I can here in Canada...for the exact same item! In some cases, the item is actually CDN made...go figure!



> Support your local shops, if you think these guys are all getting rich off of you shopping there your crazy. Most of them make less then most of you to be honest.


I agree....the LBS are the ones getting screwed! The distributors will keep their prices high and it will be the LBS that suffer. I feel for them, and I know it's a tough business, but business is business. It's a competive market and you'd better learn to swim fast!


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Having spent many years working in a shop, I know the markup on a bike is not that great. It's barely making money when you factor in the cost of shipping, building, and the time of the guy selling you the bike. Add on rent/power overhead and suddenly you are losing money. The LBS makes the money on repairs, helmets, clothing, parts/accsesories. I'm sure that most shops would rather just sell the stuff that makes them money, but you can't call yerself a bike shop if you don't sell bikes.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

So with your experience what is the GM on an avg bike?

I inquired about a look 555 at a LBS, and he gave me a price. He basically told me he's making about 50% GM on that bike. Well for a 2007 closeout, if you wanna make 50% GM your not gonna get any of my business now, or ever in the future...


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Avg full price markup would be around 1.4-1.5 for a bike under $1500, 1.25-1.4 for anything over that. 1.6-1.7 for a bike under $600. These are averages. Really high end stuff is rarely over 1.3. It also depends on the manufacturer. A LBS generally has to sell bikes for what people are willing to pay. A brand like Specialized overprices the bike so the LBS has to sell it for a smaller margin to make it competitive with a Giant. But they make up for it with the money from Specialized's P&A. A Spec will never sell at the same margin as a Giant.
If your LBS was trying to make a 1.5 on a 555 closeout he's a dick. Unless he was getting it on a distrubutor end of season blowout. Sometimes you can get last years stuff for dirt cheap (gives you an idea of distributor mark-up) from the distributors but it's generally odd sizing, unpopular product, or something they only have a handfull of. I remember a few years ago Norco was blowing out some 853 team MTB frames for $175 and Ti frames for $350. I think about 5 people in the shop got one or the other. My point is that if your LBS got 30% off of cost he can mark it up 50% and you still get a decent price.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

mtbbmet said:


> Avg full price markup would be around 1.4-1.5 for a bike under $1500, 1.25-1.4 for anything over that. 1.6-1.7 for a bike under $600. These are averages. Really high end stuff is rarely over 1.3. It also depends on the manufacturer. A LBS generally has to sell bikes for what people are willing to pay. A brand like Specialized overprices the bike so the LBS has to sell it for a smaller margin to make it competitive with a Giant. But they make up for it with the money from Specialized's P&A. A Spec will never sell at the same margin as a Giant.
> If your LBS was trying to make a 1.5 on a 555 closeout he's a dick. Unless he was getting it on a distrubutor end of season blowout. Sometimes you can get last years stuff for dirt cheap (gives you an idea of distributor mark-up) from the distributors but it's generally odd sizing, unpopular product, or something they only have a handfull of. I remember a few years ago Norco was blowing out some 853 team MTB frames for $175 and Ti frames for $350. I think about 5 people in the shop got one or the other. My point is that if your LBS got 30% off of cost he can mark it up 50% and you still get a decent price.



Wish that was the case.
Lets see... Buy in the US for 1850, or buy from LBS for 2700... How bout I just buy in the US, donate 50% of the savings to the LBS, and everyone is still happy? 
:idea: 

On a side note. Another LBS which I frequent a lot, got me a great deal on a park TS-2 and rotor truing tool last night. Probably about the same price or slightly less from ordering form the US depending on how I get dinged at the border. 

He's ordering these from Norco, and the price in their catalogue is astronomical for these items (more than double US prices). I'm not sure what his margin is on these items, but he just pulled out his calculator and did his thing.


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## 6up (Jul 23, 2007)

Give it some more time...LBS will be forced to be competitive or pack it in.


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## blm (Nov 20, 2001)

ahhh....dont you love being sucked dry!

Here a little one for you guys: lbs sell a carbon Lemond (zurich) for $3100 and some shops on the net sell it for $2009.99 so say the dollar is at par this is a difference of 1090.01...i dont mind encouraging local businesses but this is highway robbery. They dont even want to talk about the price...they WILL keep the bike, for sure!

Now i hear all the voices about the middleman, warranty, after sales service, encouraging lbs etc...it is a luxury i simply can not afford...but come on:3100 + tax=3565 at say 30% income taxe level(very conservative) brings me to spend 4635 hard earned $$$...not even an option if you have half a brain, and after that you wonder why reps drive around in big Volvos!

I dont mind taking my chances with this one, worse comes to worse and the frame breaks for some reason i know Lemond/Trek are very customer friendly, if not a Look 555 frameset is less than $1000 wich still costs less than the 3100+taxes for the full bike!

Anyone found a Lemond dealer who can ship?


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

6up said:


> Give it some more time...LBS will be forced to be competitive or pack it in.


IMHO, it's not up to the LBS to be competitive. They can only do so much. How can they compete when they've got both hands tied behind their backs by the distributors not reducing prices accordingly? The distributors need to get in line with the reality of our current Global market. They are stuck in the stone-age. Passing the responsibility off the LBS is passing the buck. But instead of passing it, they are keeping the buck for themselves. If I were a LBS owner, I'd be venting right now to OGC, Lambert, Norco, etc. to get in touch with what's really going on!


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## blm (Nov 20, 2001)

ahhh....dont you love being sucked dry, i hope you're heard and they are quick on thi one!

Here a little one for you guys: lbs sell a carbon Lemond (zurich) for $3100 and some shops on the net sell it for $2009.99 so say the dollar is at par this is a difference of 1090.01...i dont mind encouraging local businesses but this is highway robbery. They dont even want to talk about the price...they WILL keep the bike, for sure!

Now i hear all the voices about the middleman, warranty, after sales service, encouraging lbs etc...it is a luxury i simply can not afford...but come on:3100 + tax=3565 at say 30% income taxe level(very conservative) brings me to spend 4635 hard earned $$$...not even an option if you have half a brain, and after that you wonder why reps drive around in big Volvos!

I dont mind taking my chances with this one, worse comes to worse and the frame breaks for some reason i know Lemond/Trek are very customer friendly, if not a Look 555 frameset is less than $1000 wich still costs less than the 3100+taxes for the full bike!

Anyone found a Lemond dealer who can ship?


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

1speed_Mike said:


> IMHO, it's not up to the LBS to be competitive. They can only do so much. How can they compete when they've got both hands tied behind their backs by the distributors not reducing prices accordingly? The distributors need to get in line with the reality of our current Global market. They are stuck in the stone-age. Passing the responsibility off the LBS is passing the buck. But instead of passing it, they are keeping the buck for themselves. If I were a LBS owner, I'd be venting right now to OGC, Lambert, Norco, etc. to get in touch with what's really going on!


LBS are the face to consumers, so ultimately, yes it is the LBS that needs to be competitive. Alternative is to go out of business. 

As for distributors, I doubt they are the ones making the highest margins. They get the fun of supporting a sales team, calling on bike shops, and distributing heavy bikes... Seems pretty risky to me with high overhead, and distributing product in Canada - the HUGE land of very few people - is horribly expensive.

If you want your local LBS to be competitive? Don't allow the manufacturer to make profits through exchange rates. In Canada's case, continue to buy from US where ultimately, the manufacturer will be making less. In fact, if possible, import through the web and sell on ebay in Canada at lower prices than LBS. Make it impossible for the Mfr to do business in Canada, and eventually, they will be forced to adjust their prices. 

The same is the case not only for bikes, but for everyday items such as toothpaste, soap, food, etc. Create a healthy parallel import / grey market - the Canadian division of the bike manufacturer will cry to their headoffice about big bad US division, and ultimately, in time, prices will get adjusted. 

Supply and demand. No demand for Canadian market products...the Canadian product prices will eventually come down.


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## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

kevlar1973 said:


> The other thing is that this is business, people are in business to make money. If it was your business you would want to make money.


We are all in "business". I'm in the business of running my life and household so that we don't go bankrupt. Does that sound like you or anyone else with a store? Would you, today, buy from a distributor that gave you a better price if you could?

I'm the same as you then. I go for the best price so that I have more money left at the end of the year.


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## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

mtbbmet said:


> you can't call yerself a bike shop if you don't sell bikes.


Really? Then you don't know about Toronto's  Velotique do you? They're twenty years into being a bike shop that doesn't sell bikes.


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## ferday (Feb 20, 2007)

> If you want your local LBS to be competitive? Don't allow the manufacturer to make profits through exchange rates. In Canada's case, continue to buy from US where ultimately, the manufacturer will be making less. In fact, if possible, import through the web and sell on ebay in Canada at lower prices than LBS. Make it impossible for the Mfr to do business in Canada, and eventually, they will be forced to adjust their prices.


he he....sounds good, but who _*really*_ cares that much? if i wanted to sell bikes i would've started my own LBS i'm sure.

the plain truth is the LBS needs to find a way to survive, i have an LBS that i love and i really like the guys there....but if they can't offer at least _better_ prices then the online super-shops will continue to get my $$$. doesn't matter to me if it's the LBS' fault or not, in the end it's about how light my wallet is.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

ferday said:


> he he....sounds good, but who _*really*_ cares that much? if i wanted to sell bikes i would've started my own LBS i'm sure.
> 
> the plain truth is the LBS needs to find a way to survive, i have an LBS that i love and i really like the guys there....but if they can't offer at least _better_ prices then the online super-shops will continue to get my $$$. doesn't matter to me if it's the LBS' fault or not, in the end it's about how light my wallet is.


Well said and totally agree. Even at my local US LBS, I like them, but told them to match the lowest web price I found on the net for a TACX Fortius trainer. They did, so I bought from them. If they didn't, and they're truly your "friend" - they should understand. I bet you if the LBS found cheaper inventory on the net than their distributor, even they would consider buying on the net!


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## djb1 (Oct 10, 2007)

Up until recently I've totally missed out on the online shopping thing. When shopping for a trainer (KK Road Machine) I got the unit and the computer online from the US (duty, taxes and shipping in) for less than I could get the unit itself ONLINE in Canada (without the shipping).

Yup, Canadians are being GOUGED and its not just the LBS doing it. The Local Online Retailer said they had a supplier agreement with Kenetic NOT to sell below a certain price. BTW is this LEGAL?


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

Yep, totally legal. And very common. Not just in the bike industry either. Look at Apple. What Apple says is the price, is the price. You are not allowed to advertise for less than what Jobs says is the going rate. Same thing with most Oakley dealers. People don't want their product to become a discounted brand. It's all about protecting the corporate image.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

djb1 said:


> Up until recently I've totally missed out on the online shopping thing. When shopping for a trainer (KK Road Machine) I got the unit and the computer online from the US (duty, taxes and shipping in) for less than I could get the unit itself ONLINE in Canada (without the shipping).
> 
> Yup, Canadians are being GOUGED and its not just the LBS doing it. The Local Online Retailer said they had a supplier agreement with Kenetic NOT to sell below a certain price. BTW is this LEGAL?


Think of it this way. I'm the manufacturer, if you wanna sell my stuff at some crazy price that pisses off all my other dealers, I'm just going to raise your price. So now if you wanna sell my stuff, your going to have to pay 20% more than the guy next door, so you can take your 1% margin and shove it up you know where.

Thats a bit extreme, but is typical of how companies control price in the market.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

unagidon said:


> Well said and totally agree. Even at my local US LBS, I like them, but told them to match the lowest web price I found on the net for a TACX Fortius trainer.


I'm looking at the Tacx Fortius....what was the lowest price you found?

Just back from the LBS with some CDN MSRP pricing (which I don't pay) on some Tacx trainers:

1 - Fortius - $2200
2 - Cosmos - $1850
3 - Flow - $820
4 - Satori - $460

and, the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine - $470


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

djb1 said:


> Up until recently I've totally missed out on the online shopping thing. When shopping for a trainer (KK Road Machine) I got the unit and the computer online from the US (duty, taxes and shipping in) for less than I could get the unit itself ONLINE in Canada (without the shipping).


Where did you get your KK Road from? Norco lists the MSRP as $470CDN. La Bicicletta has it for $370CDN.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*It's not legal if that is what they are doing*



djb1 said:


> The Local Online Retailer said they had a supplier agreement with Kenetic NOT to sell below a certain price. BTW is this LEGAL?


Manufacturers are not allowed to set retail prices. They can suggest a retail price. Retailers are free to discount to any level they want. If a manufacturer punishes a retailer for cutting price it's called retail price maintenance and it's illegal under Canadian competition law.

Manufacturers do have the right however to refuse to sell to someone for what ever business reasons. Some companies like Oakley and TAG strictly control retail price discounting by pulling the line from retailers that discount their product.


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

Chainstay said:


> Manufacturers do have the right however to refuse to sell to someone for what ever business reasons. Some companies like Oakley and TAG strictly control retail price discounting by pulling the line from retailers that discount their product.


ding ding ding... we have a winner!


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## ferday (Feb 20, 2007)

Chainstay said:


> Manufacturers are not allowed to set retail prices. They can suggest a retail price. Retailers are free to discount to any level they want. If a manufacturer punishes a retailer for cutting price it's called retail price maintenance and it's illegal under Canadian competition law.
> 
> Manufacturers do have the right however to refuse to sell to someone for what ever business reasons. Some companies like Oakley and TAG strictly control retail price discounting by pulling the line from retailers that discount their product.


can anyone say Chris King?
same price within a couple bucks no matter where you shop.


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## djb1 (Oct 10, 2007)

I got the unit WITH the computer for under $350 C including shipping. I gave La Bicycletta the chance to sell it to me on eBay from the US side and I'd pick it up at the store. They had no problem sending it from US using UPS but I've been cautioned against that.

Bottom line, I had an amazing experience with theracksource on eBay! When will these guys learn? Now if they'd sell things like they were at the bike show today, that would be more like it.

I've also heard that they don't make any money on bikes. BS! The same dealer that was telling me they have higher margin on bottle cages etc said that they were clearing bikes out at the show at cost. I saw bikes that their cost then was around 3K, their MSRP was 4400. They ought to be able to remain in business when their minimum mark up is 30%.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

1speed_Mike said:


> I'm looking at the Tacx Fortius....what was the lowest price you found?
> 
> Just back from the LBS with some CDN MSRP pricing (which I don't pay) on some Tacx trainers:
> 
> ...


$2200...wow...that's a huge rip, especially with the current exchange rate. C$ 2,200 = US$ 2,250 approx.

Anyway, I paid US$ 1,025.99 for the trainer, and US$ 159.99 for the steering system. My LBS even set-up the trainer for me. I've been down here in the US for a year now and if there's 2 things I love, it's: 1) lower taxes 2) much, much, much cheaper shopping! And if you think bikes are bad...just wait till you start looking at cars!


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

unagidon said:


> $2200...wow...that's a huge rip, especially with the current exchange rate. C$ 2,200 = US$ 2,250 approx.
> 
> Anyway, I paid US$ 1,025.99 for the trainer, and US$ 159.99 for the steering system. My LBS even set-up the trainer for me. I've been down here in the US for a year now and if there's 2 things I love, it's: 1) lower taxes 2) much, much, much cheaper shopping! And if you think bikes are bad...just wait till you start looking at cars!


Thanks for the info!

Change-o-plans now....going with a PTSL wheel + Kurt Road/Tacx Satori. Same overall price in the end. But, I like the versatility of the PTSL/Kurt. I'm hoping to get out this week to try a Fortius and a CompuTrainer, so this might change based on these rides.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

djb1 said:


> I got the unit WITH the computer for under $350 C including shipping. I gave La Bicycletta the chance to sell it to me on eBay from the US side and I'd pick it up at the store. They had no problem sending it from US using UPS but I've been cautioned against that.


Yes, shipping cross-border with UPS is risky. They charge 'brokerage fees' for the paperwork/processing of the item at Customs. This fee can be ridiculous! USPS/CanadaPost = $5 flat fee for the same service! I hate UPS!

MSRP on the Kurt Road = $470CDN (no computer). Amazing how you can get the same trainer + the computer + shipping for $120CDN less!


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Looks like the squeaky wheel is getting the oil, hopefully this continues:thumbsup: http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/268573


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## rlim (Oct 28, 2007)

I have been away from cycling for 2 decades and am getting back into it. I'm in the market for a new bike and is shopping online for one. I must say I've been a US shopper for quite a few years and have most of my purchases sent to a fulfillment warehouse in Buffalo. I've declared all my puchases when re-entering Canada and majority of the time, the custom officer would wave me through without duties. The odd time I will be requested to pay only PST and GST which is nothing compared to the saving from shopping online. 

There are plenty of discussions I read on after service support for purchasing bikes online. To me, It is a none issue considering I service my own bikes and I have all the tools needed to fine tune it. I've built all my bikes including wheels.... 

My latest purchase ... none bike relates ... are car tires off eBay. I was quoted $390 for each Dunlop snow tire at a local tire stores in Toronto . Two (2) similar Dunlop tires were going for $109 + $40 shipping. These are new tires, not used!! 

I've been making almost monthly trips to Buffalo to pick up my purchases. Next trip is next weekend. Also, I have setup US credit cards for retailer who do not accept Cdn credit cards. Even most Cdn banks offers US credit cards now.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Typical Canadian gouge and sc**$ I laughed when I read this today. I think Banff will be empty this Christmas .
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=d6bf8090-cd59-4e93-a468-c1507e5485f8&k=56942


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## lane (Dec 15, 2006)

Interesting thread. I have this same conversation on a regular basis with some of my customers. Why should I pay this price when I can get it for this price online, etc... We can't compete with the online guys, period. Not if we want to pay our staff a living wage, pay other overhead costs, have the shop generate a profit which means a bit of cashflow to keep things running etc. It sucks that we have to buy our product from Canadian distributers who are often more expensive than anywhere else. Even more so when the US distributers are not allowed to sell to us by the manufacturer. But, such is our business environment. In order to be competitive, we don't mark our product up beyond MSRP, and we try to offer great service to everybody, not just the bros. We'll kick down savings to the consumer when we can but most times its just not possible. The fact of the matter is this, if we don't mark our product up enough to cover its cost and pay the bills, we couldn't be here. Think about that the next time you can't do a repair yourself, (we're the ones who keep the very expensive tools to do some of that stuff), have to pick up a tube (dosn't cost much to you but how much does it cost to buy a few thousand of them so that people don't have to wait a week to fix a flat) or a part in a hurry (ever consider the cost of something as simple as a bolt bin?), need that cliff bar or shot block,or any other little service that a LBS can provide which the online guy can't. 

Or, look at it this way. Would you work for less than what it costs you to survive? If not, why would you expect anybody else to?


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

I hear you on the troubles of operating an LBS, but come on....I can get a pair of Michelin Krylion Carbon tires on ebay, delivered to my door in about a week, for less then I can get one tire at any LBS around here! And that is not the only product that has that kind of price discrepancy. I could handle a 20%-25% price difference with US retailers, but when it's getting upwards of 50% there is a problem. The LBS's, like other retailers, need to get off their collective @sses and start giving it to the distibutors, if they are in fact the problem. Fact of the matter is that if we aren't buying from you, then you aren't buying from them, and they in turn lose money too.

As a consumer I'm tired of getting raped at the cash register! It was one thing when our dollar was around 70cents US, but now it's hovering at $1.05US. Something has to give or it's just going to get worse! For example, read in the paper yesterday that Canada Post is suffering through a huge backlog of parcels stuck at customs because there just isn't enough people to process everything. It just shows you that the movement is on...

Oh yea, another example...Wife bought a pair of khaki slacks at Eddie Bauer, in Hamilton, for $80...Got the same pants from the Eddie Bauer website (US) delivered to the door in less then a week for $40...I love supporting the local guy, but come on....

And another thing....More money I save on the little purchases the more I spend on the big ones, like a full bike....Which BTW I buy at the LBS...

And another one...Had to renew my Norton Subscription. Went through the process and they wanted $49.99Can, I thought let's switch to US dollars. When I did this the price was $39.99US. I said screw it, bill my CC in US dollars. I checked my bill, online, yesterday and it cost me $39.53Can...So once again I saved myself some cash...

OK I'm done....

BTW I could probably go on a lot longer about all the examples where we as consumers are getting gouged....Don't even get me going on cell phone costs, internet costs, cable costs...ARGH!!!


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2007)

Whistler too.

For years they have priced everything in US dollars and basically given locals with Cdn dollars the finger.

Even restaurant menus were in US dollars.

Now they have announced that they are going to treat the US dollar as being even and take the US dollar at PAR over the winter.

I doubt I will ever set foot in Whistler again.





SCC said:


> Typical Canadian gouge and sc**$ I laughed when I read this today. I think Banff will be empty this Christmas .
> http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=d6bf8090-cd59-4e93-a468-c1507e5485f8&k=56942


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

Yeah...there's no way LBS can compete online stores with prices.

That tire example is pretty good. I can go online and buy Michelins or Vittorias at the same price my LBS buys tires from distributors. I would say that distributors are the main reason for high prices. If one bikeshop decides to go "independent" it's not enough because all the others will stick with the distributors. There are good distributors but then there are bad ones too like OGC and others alike. Good example of pricing is OGC's suggested retail price of 2200C$ for PT SL 2.4, I can get the same hub online for 1420C$.

Distributors have pretty firm grip over bike shops and it's very difficult to be in business without these distributors. Distributors are just a useless middle men only adding cost. I can't see any value added by most distributors.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

hooj said:


> Yeah...there's no way LBS can compete online stores with prices.
> 
> That tire example is pretty good. I can go online and buy Michelins or Vittorias at the same price my LBS buys tires from distributors. I would say that distributors are the main reason for high prices. If one bikeshop decides to go "independent" it's not enough because all the others will stick with the distributors. There are good distributors but then there are bad ones too like OGC and others alike. Good example of pricing is OGC's suggested retail price of 2200C$ for PT SL 2.4, I can get the same hub online for 1420C$.
> 
> Distributors have pretty firm grip over bike shops and it's very difficult to be in business without these distributors. Distributors are just a useless middle men only adding cost. I can't see any value added by most distributors.



Maybe Walmart will start selling bike parts:lol: :lol: :lol: if thats the only way we can get a brake. I just picked up my blue bag from the post office...3 tires cost me 70 bucks tax , duty and delivery....closest price in Calgary 49.95 each....156.72....sorry I'm not rich


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

SCC said:


> Maybe Walmart will start selling bike parts:lol: :lol: :lol: if thats the only way we can get a brake. I just picked up my blue bag from the post office...3 tires cost me 70 bucks tax , duty and delivery....closest price in Calgary 49.95 each....156.72....sorry I'm not rich


At my LBS Corsa CX clincher is 89,99$ and for example probikekit sells the same tire for 36,19$. Price at PBK is much lower than LBS's cost. Pro2Race gives even nastier example as it costs 90$ at my LBS and PBK sells it for 29,90$. Even if the cost would be the same as PBK price these tires would cost ~55$ at the LBS at best.

For LBS it's pretty difficult or impossible I would say to match the online prices. People tend to buy wherever they find the same stuff for good price. The thing that I cannot understand are these people who buy stuff online and then come to my LBS with their bike and expect to get help for free or for some "deal" price with their latest online bargain basement widget.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

hooj said:


> At my LBS Corsa CX clincher is 89,99$ and for example probikekit sells the same tire for 36,19$. Price at PBK is much lower than LBS's cost. Pro2Race gives even nastier example as it costs 90$ at my LBS and PBK sells it for 29,90$. Even if the cost would be the same as PBK price these tires would cost ~55$ at the LBS at best.
> 
> For LBS it's pretty difficult or impossible I would say to match the online prices. People tend to buy wherever they find the same stuff for good price. The thing that I cannot understand are these people who buy stuff online and then come to my LBS with their bike and expect to get help for free or for some "deal" price with their latest online bargain basement widget.



Whats the difference if they got it online or a different LBS? Would they always know? Thats like buying a car from an out of town dealer then bringing it to a local one for service.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

If I buy online, and can't install myself, or need adjustment at the LBS I pay em.
I dunno who would expect them to do it for free...

I also for the life of me can't figure out why a LBS wouldn't be ok with this. Since everyone says they don't make any money and the distributors are screwing them, they should jump at the chance to make money off of service, create a loyal customer, and get his mechanic some work since he should have nothing to do since no ones buying anything for him to install.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

bbgobie said:


> If I buy online, and can't install myself, or need adjustment at the LBS I pay em.
> I dunno who would expect them to do it for free...
> 
> I also for the life of me can't figure out why a LBS wouldn't be ok with this. Since everyone says they don't make any money and the distributors are screwing them, they should jump at the chance to make money off of service, create a loyal customer, and get his mechanic some work since he should have nothing to do since no ones buying anything for him to install.


It's ok if you're ready to pay for the service. But believe me...I've spent enough time wrenching to know that there are lots of people who don't want to pay. The people I was talking about are those who never buy anything from the LBS but expect to get some special service and prices.


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## lane (Dec 15, 2006)

Something to consider with some online purchases. Quite often manufacturers will make a couple of different versions of a product. I know that with MEC's tires, the casings have a much lower threadcount than what you get from QBP. To take that another step forward, the Maxxis Ignitors that are sold by Lam for $50 are a tad different than the ones sold by Orange for $60. Thats just a couple of examples as far as bikes are concerned. The same thing happens with skis. Now I know that quite often its the same product that you get from the bikeshop but sometimes its just false economy if you're getting a lesser product.


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## lane (Dec 15, 2006)

Oh, and as for installing parts bought online, I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is the customer coming to me to complain when that product fails and expecting me to take care of it for him. I'm thinking of a particular BMX rat here in town who does that.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

lane said:


> Oh, and as for installing parts bought online, I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is the customer coming to me to complain when that product fails and expecting me to take care of it for him. I'm thinking of a particular BMX rat here in town who does that.


That too. I can't stop wondering how someone can expect a LBS to take care of a warranty with their online purchased product that the LBS doesn't even carry.

And I repeat, I don't have any problem with installing parts bought online IF customer is willing to pay for that service.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

lane said:


> Interesting thread. I have this same conversation on a regular basis with some of my customers. Why should I pay this price when I can get it for this price online, etc... We can't compete with the online guys, period. Not if we want to pay our staff a living wage, pay other overhead costs, have the shop generate a profit which means a bit of cashflow to keep things running etc. It sucks that we have to buy our product from Canadian distributers who are often more expensive than anywhere else. Even more so when the US distributers are not allowed to sell to us by the manufacturer. But, such is our business environment. In order to be competitive, we don't mark our product up beyond MSRP, and we try to offer great service to everybody, not just the bros. We'll kick down savings to the consumer when we can but most times its just not possible. The fact of the matter is this, if we don't mark our product up enough to cover its cost and pay the bills, we couldn't be here. Think about that the next time you can't do a repair yourself, (we're the ones who keep the very expensive tools to do some of that stuff), have to pick up a tube (dosn't cost much to you but how much does it cost to buy a few thousand of them so that people don't have to wait a week to fix a flat) or a part in a hurry (ever consider the cost of something as simple as a bolt bin?), need that cliff bar or shot block,or any other little service that a LBS can provide which the online guy can't.
> 
> Or, look at it this way. Would you work for less than what it costs you to survive? If not, why would you expect anybody else to?


I sympathize with you, as a shop owner. You've got rent to pay, wages, utilities, etc. You are put in an unfortunate situation in our growing global economy and your distributors are screwing you, to put it bluntly. Nobody expects you to run a business at a loss, but, your customers are becoming smarter, more savy, etc. Well, at least I know I am and will buy online in a heartbeat. Take a look at the recent news reports about CanadaPost being bottlenecked at it's major centers. Unfortunately, my new carbon tubulars are stuck in shipping :mad2: Do you think the trend is going to stop? The flood gates have opened, and with Xmas rapidly approaching, it's going to get worse. 

I've been buying from the US for 10+ yrs. Even back then, there were still deals to be had despite our dollar. I bought from the US for availability and selection (CDN LBS never stocked exotic stuff), but still came-out ahead. Fastforward to 2007 and with our dollar now sitting at 1.05 (vs 0.70), there's even more incentive. 

With my savings over the last 10+ yrs, I've accumulated most of the required bike tools required for installing parts, etc. I can build-up my own bikes and do my own wrenching.

There needs to be a little give-n-take in this new economic environment. CDN distributors need to discout, as do LBS'. Everyone needs to share the new reality. Or, if not, LBS' will close and CDN distributors will feel it in the end. Pay me, or pay me later. Adapt, or die.

Case in point, I'm looking for a PowerTap SL 2.4 hub. Got a quoted 'deal' price from my LBS (well below MSRP) that is just ridiculous compared to those in the US. As a LBS, he can only discount so much. If OGC isn't discounting to offset for the currency, then how can the LBS even hope to compete?

And the end of the day, it's my hard-earned $$ I'm spending. If I can get Item X in the US for 30-50% less than I can get it here (not MSRP, deal pricing), I'm buying in the US. Sorry, nothing personal.

IMHO, you need to start pressuring your CDN distributors (OGC, Lambert, Norco, etc) to get in-touch with reality. The sluggishness to react is slowly killing CDN LBS.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

rbart4506 said:


> And another one...Had to renew my Norton Subscription. Went through the process and they wanted $49.99Can, I thought let's switch to US dollars. When I did this the price was $39.99US. I said screw it, bill my CC in US dollars. I checked my bill, online, yesterday and it cost me $39.53Can...So once again I saved myself some cash...


Thanks for the tip....my Norton AV expires in 10-days.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

1speed_Mike said:


> Case in point, I'm looking for a PowerTap SL 2.4 hub. Got a quoted 'deal' price from my LBS (well below MSRP) that is just ridiculous compared to those in the US. As a LBS, he can only discount so much. If OGC isn't discounting to offset for the currency, then how can the LBS even hope to compete?


This is the #1 item on my shopping list and my LBS matches the US prices. OGC suggested retail price is 2200CAD but my LBS understands that there is no way they can charge more than 1500-1600CAD. Obviously this is not a good item for LBS but once they add rim, spokes and wheelbuild with front wheel to this and it becomes little bit better business.

Too bad OGC is the Easton distributor in Canada as well as OGC is the worst of all the bigger distributors and Easton is one of my favorite brands.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

The only way Canadian LBS can get products at better prices is if a bunch of them get together and try to order directly from the manufacturer. Say 4 bike shops get together and make one truckload order, directly from Specialized instead of going through some distributor. I'm very curious about how to create a "grey market" business selling bikes & bike accessories. Working in marketing at a cpg company, I know grey market is what causes manufacturers to make changes because it hits the P&L...


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

I know a little about how Small computer stores get "grey market" products. From what I've seen, none of the LBS I go to do these kinds of activities. I wonder how many of them know how to do it? Would be good for some of them to work in a computer store and learn how they order parts and scam everyone.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

hooj said:


> This is the #1 item on my shopping list and my LBS matches the US prices. OGC suggested retail price is 2200CAD.


US MSRP is $1500US. How does OGC get-off charging ~50% more for the exact same thing! For any CDN LBS to compete, CDN MSRP should be close, not 50%!!!!. Whose fault is that there's a 50% difference in pricing? That ridiculous! If I was a LBS owner, I'd be demanding a new pricing structure to account for today's reality! It seems the CDN distributors are living in the dark-ages and refuse to accept our new global economy, e-commerce, etc. In the end, the LBS' are paying the price.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

bbgobie said:


> I know a little about how Small computer stores get "grey market" products. From what I've seen, none of the LBS I go to do these kinds of activities. I wonder how many of them know how to do it? Would be good for some of them to work in a computer store and learn how they order parts and scam everyone.


Because the CDN distributors run a cartel, for lack of a better word. Good luck getting anything most customers want through outside channels. The distributors have a stranglehold. It's an antiquated system that needs to be overhauled ASAP!


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

1speed_Mike said:


> US MSRP is $1500US. How does OGC get-off charging ~50% more for the exact same thing! For any CDN LBS to compete, CDN MSRP should be close, not 50%!!!!. Whose fault is that there's a 50% difference in pricing? That ridiculous! If I was a LBS owner, I'd be demanding a new pricing structure to account for today's reality! It seems the CDN distributors are living in the dark-ages and refuse to accept our new global economy, e-commerce, etc. In the end, the LBS' are paying the price.


With current exchange rate OGC MSRP is ~$2350US. I don't understand why Saris/CycleOps/PowerTap is dealing with such greedy middlemen. Distribution is part of marketing and in this case distribution is very bad...I would like to get my PT through my LBS since they have helped me a lot this year but it seems almost impossible to even get PTs from OGC. I'll wait till the end of November and if my money is not good enough for OGC I'll give my pennies to some US online shop.

Just estimates here but OGC must be paying under $700 for each SL 2.4 hub. Then the wholesale for those shops that buy in to their program is somewhere around $1000 or even bit more. PT is very bad item for LBS but they "must" have it and OGC is taking advantage of this.


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## lane (Dec 15, 2006)

And there lies another problem with Canadian Distribution, lack of selection. Norco, Lam, and OGC carry a very slim line of product, makes it hard to work for customers who have special needs such as non standard parts etc. Simple soloution would be to order from the Stateside guys but if a line is carried by a distributer here, good luck getting it, chances are they wont sell to the shop.:mad2: Trying to make the distributers work for you is a battle not worth fighting. Case in point. A few years ago I ordered something from Lam, it was a part that was desperately needed for a guy heading into a major race. Called the distributer, found out there was only one left, ordered it on the spot, a week later, no part. I called the order desk and found that the part was rerouted to a bigger shop out east. The explanation... "you are just a little shop in Alberta, why should we worry about you?"


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

theres really no way to break the cartel unless producers stop dealing with distributors, however they signed over their souls to the cdn distributers and we are left footing the bill. The distributors aren't going to change their ways unless the producers force them to..and they aren't going to do anything... so we are pretty much screwed. for emergency purchases there's the LBS, for everything else, there is the internet.

i used to buy exclusively from the net, but now i find myself hitting up the local lbs more even though they are slower than internet ordering and more expensive. they don't even carry stuff i want, but at least the owner is a good guy who deserves my business.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Canada is a big land of nothing - 80% of population lives around a few major urban hubs like Vancouver, Edmonton/Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, QC and Halifax. Bikes and bike parts are heavy - extremely difficult for manufacturers to have efficient supply chain system to get stuff across the country. That's where the distributors come in - they help "distribute" for multiple manufacturers. So, logisitics (for the Canadian market) is bound to have an effect on pricing. 

And since I don't really know the bike business, I'm not sure whether it's the manufacturer that's keeping Canadian prices high, or whether it's the distributor charging high prices. Bottom line - to get lower prices, you'll have to make the people making the $ hurt whether it be the distributor or the manufacturer. 

Grey market does not equal illegal products, as many link "grey" to black. It simply means products deemed for another country (such as US) is being sold through a different country (like Canada). And manufacturers hate grey market products because the grey market "creator" is essentially taking profits out of the manufacturer. The grey market creator will buy from the lower cost country, and sell in the higher cost country, reducing the profits the manufacturer makes from the subsidiary in the higher cost country.

What can you do to make the manufacturer hurt? Buy from the net. Heck, for the more entrepreneurial ones out there, buy from US and sell on ebay. Create a web store (like competitivecyclist.com) for Canada so there is a powerful purchaser and can buy direct fom the manufacturer. Ask bike shops to band together to buy direct from Trek, and not go through some distributor. 

I got into biking in the past year I've been living in the US. Maybe I can come back to Canada and set up a profitable business servicing all the disgruntled Canadians! And like I've always said, you think bikes are bad...look at cars! I can buy a fully loaded Infiniti G35 on the road for around US$ 33K, or a Lexus IS350 for US$ 35K. Go check out what those cars cost after the multiple pdi's, air tax, tire tax, pst and gst...my goodness...you're in the C$ 50's...


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

unagidon said:


> I can buy a fully loaded Infiniti G35 on the road for around US$ 33K, or a Lexus IS350 for US$ 35K. Go check out what those cars cost after the multiple pdi's, air tax, tire tax, pst and gst...my goodness...you're in the C$ 50's...


Yeah but Canada has a socialized system of health care. The money to pay for it has to come form somewhere. Sure..... the U.S is a cheap consumer product heaven but you're kinda screwed if you don't have health insurance.


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

SCC said:


> But the exchange rate is 1.045 ....we are getting HOSED!


Open the flood gates....1.08 this morning! Time to get my order in for Xmas


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Italianrider76 said:


> Yeah but Canada has a socialized system of health care. The money to pay for it has to come form somewhere. Sure..... the U.S is a cheap consumer product heaven but you're kinda screwed if you don't have health insurance.



The price of the car has nothing to do with health insurance, the manufacturers are screwing us from the start.http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experienc...eh_group.jsp?model=CK262T&series=is&year=2008

somebody justify 35000 US to 47000Can....gouge and screw

I guess Lexus is contributing to our health:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Italianrider76 said:


> Yeah but Canada has a socialized system of health care. The money to pay for it has to come form somewhere. Sure..... the U.S is a cheap consumer product heaven but you're kinda screwed if you don't have health insurance.


Agree and disagree. Socialized health care true, but the service sucks unless you're a politician or hockey player. My sister was having dizzy spells and the doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her through routine physical examination and hence, needed an MRI. The wait was for 2 months. Lucky she left Canada and immediately received MRI and surgery - waiting 2 months would have possibly killed her because they found a huge tumor in her brain. Hockey players after being body checked and suffering from concussion can get an MRI immediately...so much for fairness.

As for cost of insurance. I can tell you my company pays for part of it, and I pay an additional $300 per month, totalling approx. $3,600 out of pocket. I probably paid about $500 out of pocket for drugs for my family, so let's call it $4,100 for medical care. 

With my savings in straight income taxes, the opportunity to claim my mortgage interest, lower sales taxes, and lower cost of living...I'll pay the $4.1K for medicare anyday. If you're jobless, that's a totally different story. 

Ultimately, I like the Hong Kong healthcare system - it's two tiered. You want to pay very minimally and have government subsidized benefits, you can certainly do that. It's 4 or 8 patients to a room, service is not as quick (but no way as slow as Canada), and I can tell you the nurses aren't as nice to you as you'd like because they're all stressed out. Alternately, you can pay if you choose to have world-class, 5 star service in hospitals that are hotel like, plasma tv's in a private room. 

The problem with Canada - the low income have it great. They have many socialistic programs that help them such as welfare and free healthcare, etc., benefits better than many places in the world. The ultra-rich, they have the wealth and enough advisors to teach them how to avoid taxes, etc. Who get's screwed? The middle-class. And who feels it most? Call it the "educated" middle class, household income between $120 - 250K. Taxed to the max, but not wealthy enough to be eligible for the "rich" loopholes, ultimately supporting the rest of the country.

Very off topic. Getting back to bikes - I'm drooling for a Trek 5.2 Madone, LBS offer of US$3,060. I don't know what the price is in Canada, but my guess, around C$4.5K minimum. Very unfair...


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## rlim (Oct 28, 2007)

1speed_Mike said:


> Open the flood gates....1.08 this morning! Time to get my order in for Xmas


--------------------------

Yeah!!! Monitoring a few items on eBay. Looking to buy presents for myself


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

unagidon said:


> Agree and disagree. Socialized health care true, but the service sucks unless you're a politician or hockey player. My sister was having dizzy spells and the doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her through routine physical examination and hence, needed an MRI. The wait was for 2 months. Lucky she left Canada and immediately received MRI and surgery - waiting 2 months would have possibly killed her because they found a huge tumor in her brain. Hockey players after being body checked and suffering from concussion can get an MRI immediately...so much for fairness.
> 
> As for cost of insurance. I can tell you my company pays for part of it, and I pay an additional $300 per month, totalling approx. $3,600 out of pocket. I probably paid about $500 out of pocket for drugs for my family, so let's call it $4,100 for medical care.
> 
> ...


thats spot on. plus Hong Kong citizens dont' even pay tax on goods and have a very very low income tax. All the revenue is generated from trade and corporate tax... this model would never work for canada though we are too big, and we specialize in different things. Canada's middle class take the blunt of it all. Not to say we shouldn't be helping our fellow citizens regardless of class, but they take the blunt and thats fact.

5.2 Madone is 3699... at the local trek dealer... and thats not the new model.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

unagidon said:


> The problem with Canada - the low income have it great. They have many socialistic programs that help them such as welfare and free healthcare, etc., benefits better than many places in the world. The ultra-rich, they have the wealth and enough advisors to teach them how to avoid taxes, etc. Who get's screwed? The middle-class. And who feels it most? Call it the "educated" middle class, household income between $120 - 250K. Taxed to the max, but not wealthy enough to be eligible for the "rich" loopholes, ultimately supporting the rest of the country.


Well not really...Me and my wife are in the low income group. Or my wife has decent salary but I'm not allowed to work in Canada so one decent salary doesn't help that much. We are low income but since I don't exist in the eyes of Canadian government there's no tax cuts or social benefits. Not that I would try to get any benefits anyways...I'll leave them to those who really need them or don't have any moral issues abusing them.

It sucks that many manufacturers are helping to maintain this monopolistic situation in canadian bike business. With the pricing, buy ins to different programs etc. they shouldn't survive very long but unfortunately many LBS's keep supporting the system.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

OneGear said:


> thats spot on. plus Hong Kong citizens dont' even pay tax on goods and have a very very low income tax. All the revenue is generated from trade and corporate tax... this model would never work for canada though we are too big, and we specialize in different things. Canada's middle class take the blunt of it all. Not to say we shouldn't be helping our fellow citizens regardless of class, but they take the blunt and thats fact.
> 
> 5.2 Madone is 3699... at the local trek dealer... and thats not the new model.


What's the price for the new one? For US$3060, that's the LBS price for the 2008 5.2, not 2007. They had huge sales in the US for the 2007 models, and from what recall, the 07 5.2 was sold off for $1999.


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## OneGear (Aug 19, 2005)

i see a 07 for 2499, no prics up for 08 and i'm sorta lazy to look.


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## rlim (Oct 28, 2007)

$1.10 exchange rate this morning!!!... I'm going to purchase some US funds and sock it into my US acct.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

rlim said:


> $1.10 exchange rate this morning!!!... I'm going to purchase some US funds and sock it into my US acct.


Or better yet, but it in USD Stock...
you get double the benifits
:thumbsup:


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

I lost so much cash, leaving Canada when I did 

Although shopping in US is fun  Hopefully my LBS will offer me a super deal for the 08 Madone 5.2 in his upcoming "biggest sale of the year" event...


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

hooj said:


> With current exchange rate OGC MSRP is ~$2350US. I don't understand why Saris/CycleOps/PowerTap is dealing with such greedy middlemen. Distribution is part of marketing and in this case distribution is very bad...I would like to get my PT through my LBS since they have helped me a lot this year but it seems almost impossible to even get PTs from OGC. I'll wait till the end of November and if my money is not good enough for OGC I'll give my pennies to some US online shop.


Ya, my LBS said the can't get them until Dec.

What's/where's the cheapest you've found for the PT SL 2.4 (as a hub or wheel)? I'd like to buy something sooner than later because a wheel I had shipped 5+ weeks ago from the US just arrived, so there are huge, huge delays in shipping through USPS/CanadaPost.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

1speed_Mike said:


> Ya, my LBS said the can't get them until Dec.
> 
> What's/where's the cheapest you've found for the PT SL 2.4 (as a hub or wheel)? I'd like to buy something sooner than later because a wheel I had shipped 5+ weeks ago from the US just arrived, so there are huge, huge delays in shipping through USPS/CanadaPost.


I think the cheapest ones are at Alfred E. Bike in here 

I don't want to wait very long...I want and kind of need the PT last week. I might just go ahead and contact CycleOps since at least they want their distribution to work.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

It took a while but my LBS offered a pretty sweet deal for AC 420/PT SL 2.4 wheel. Almost the same price as Alfred E. Bike but the wheel is something else than with the DT RR1.1...more race ready I mean. Well this was kind of one off thing for me and my friend but my LBS owner told me that they are going to do lots of price matching in next couple of months. They claimed that they could offer SL 2.4 with KinLin 30mm rim for $1600-1700 depending on the spokes and nipples. I would call that a decent deal.


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't even know why people still post in this thread. It's a waste of time whinning. Just order online from USA, UK, Hong Kong... I've found that UK pricing beats even USA pricing. 

I just spent about 2000 bucks on parts to build up my new full suspension XC race bike for 2008 season. The only thing bought in Canada was the frame from my LBS. That is because shipping something that big was not cost effective. I had to call around to 6 bike stores that sell Konas. 5 of the 6 wanted 50% markup on a non stock frame! I dont' get it... all they need to do is take my money for prepay, pick up phone, recieve item, call me, I pick up. Why do you need 50% markup for that?!?!?!? On the 6th store they finally gave me what I calculated to be around 10% markup.


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## hooj (Apr 8, 2006)

Cheers! said:


> I don't even know why people still post in this thread. It's a waste of time whinning. Just order online from USA, UK, Hong Kong... I've found that UK pricing beats even USA pricing.
> 
> I just spent about 2000 bucks on parts to build up my new full suspension XC race bike for 2008 season. The only thing bought in Canada was the frame from my LBS. That is because shipping something that big was not cost effective. I had to call around to 6 bike stores that sell Konas. 5 of the 6 wanted 50% markup on a non stock frame! I dont' get it... all they need to do is take my money for prepay, pick up phone, recieve item, call me, I pick up. Why do you need 50% markup for that?!?!?!? On the 6th store they finally gave me what I calculated to be around 10% markup.


It would be better to get good prices from your LBS. I've been talking with the people at my LBS (well now there's only one LBS for me since others are sticking to 50% markup.) and kind of consultating them a bit and they will change their pricing. Special orders will be with much less markup...that 10% might be pretty close since that's in the ball park if bike shop wants to cover their costs and maybe get a little bit of profit. Even if it's a special order the product needs to cover it's share of overhead costs etc. which will be much smaller than in the case of stocked items. Even most stocked items will have under 50% markup though.

I was ordering a Garmin for my father in law for christmas and asked for a quote from my LBS. Even their wholesale prices (Lambert prices are ridiculous) are higher than the retail prices I can get from another dealer in the same province. If bike shops would tune their supply channels and manage their business bit more professionally they should be able to cut the prices quite conciderably.

I post because I want to go to LBS and see the products rather than just ordering them online. I want to go to the bike shop and talk about bikes and local stuff...I want some personal service. There's a huge social aspect with having a good LBS close by.


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## dover (Apr 5, 2007)

I just read through this whole thread and it kinda makes me laugh how contradictory you all are. So many of you are saying that you don't feel that an LBS should be making the mark ups that they are charging. 
How would you feel if someone said to you that you should be making less money than you make because you are charging too much. How would you like it if your boss took 60% off your salary because people in china are doing the same job as you for a lot less. Does that sound fair? Do you think that you are WORTH your salary?? Bike shop owners think they are WORTH their salary? If you think your salaries are so important then why is the LBS owner's salary not important at all? You do your job for a certain amount of money??? Bike shop owners sell bike products as their job, they do that for a certain amount of money. Is he or she not allowed to make money JUST LIKE YOU???? 

When you are considering a new bike part, do you go into the LBS and look at it first? Do you pick it up and see how much it weighs? Do you look at it from all angles and see how cool it is? Do you then you go home and give some crook in the UK (grey market sales) your money? What happens when the LBS closes its doors because you never buy anything from them, but wasted their time looking at the products first? How will you go and see the next exciting new bike part again if all of the bike shops close down. That guy in the UK cant let you see that new light set before you buy. He cant let you pick it up and play with it. He can't fix it if it's not working correctly. What happens when that fork you got at rock bottom prices blows a seal and there is no-one in canada left to repair it??

If you stop shopping in Canada, CANADA gets hurt. Simple fact! It can and will snow ball and eventually all of our stores will close down (not just bike shops) because other countries are offering things cheaper than here. 
Gas, groceries, electronics, cars, alcohol, hardwares, ect, ect, are all cheaper in the states. Are you going to start buying all of your consumables down there as well? 
Also, There are 350,000,000 people in the states. There is 10% of that in canada. I think they have slightly better buying power? if you want the same prices here you're gonna have to have a lot more babies, and they are all gonna have to start buying a lot more stuff. 

If you all continue to shop abroad we will all be affected. 

Next time you consider taking away a Canadian's lively hood, (and line the pockets of someone who lives somewhere else) consider how you would feel in the same shoes and think hard about how bad things can get if this trend continues. 
How would you like it if the people who pay you money started paying someone, somewhere else less money for your job, just because they offered it cheaper. Would you want to "adapt", which has been mention in this thread as the thing bike shop owners have to do. I'm thinking not.

Have you noticed all of the tech industry jobs that are being shipped off shore? India in particular. they are being shipped over there because someone, somewhere thought the canadian that was doing that job was overpaid and that the indian guy would do the same job for a fraction of the price. Now..... have you had to call one of these "help" desks..... great service eh????? Wouldn't you rather pay a bit more and get someone locally that spoke the language and offered great service. You are making this exact same decision about your LBS. By sending your dollars off shore you are doing the exact same thing. 
Yes, someone, somewhere, can offer better prices than here in canada. But I bet your job can be done by someone, somewhere for a better price as well. 

There is a famous saying in the bike industry and it goes.
If you want to make a million dollars in a bike store........ start with 2 million.

Bike shop owners are not making fistful's of money. some , if not most, are just getting by.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

dover said:


> I just read through this whole thread and it kinda makes me laugh how contradictory you all are. So many of you are saying that you don't feel that an LBS should be making the mark ups that they are charging.
> How would you feel if someone said to you that you should be making less money than you make because you are charging too much. How would you like it if your boss took 60% off your salary because people in china are doing the same job as you for a lot less. Does that sound fair? Do you think that you are WORTH your salary?? Bike shop owners think they are WORTH their salary? If you think your salaries are so important then why is the LBS owner's salary not important at all? You do your job for a certain amount of money??? Bike shop owners sell bike products as their job, they do that for a certain amount of money. Is he or she not allowed to make money JUST LIKE YOU????
> 
> When you are considering a new bike part, do you go into the LBS and look at it first? Do you pick it up and see how much it weighs? Do you look at it from all angles and see how cool it is? Do you then you go home and give some crook in the UK (grey market sales) your money? What happens when the LBS closes its doors because you never buy anything from them, but wasted their time looking at the products first? How will you go and see the next exciting new bike part again if all of the bike shops close down. That guy in the UK cant let you see that new light set before you buy. He cant let you pick it up and play with it. He can't fix it if it's not working correctly. What happens when that fork you got at rock bottom prices blows a seal and there is no-one in canada left to repair it??
> ...



I think you should read the whole thread again.

How much is your dollar worth? why is it worth so much more in the US then on this side of the border?


do you like getting screwed.......if the answer is yes you are a truly spineless Canadian!


have you not noticed the ads for" canadian consumer price adjustment" in the last 6

weeks?


translation"oops sorry you caught us trying to screw you"


as posted people are not above paying higher prices for convenience but above suggested retail and more than double on-line prices is friggen robbery.


wake up and smell the coffee...or the Molsons my LBS friend...owner or employee.....

I don't know about Peterborough but our economy is overheated people are getting paid 12 or 14 bucks an hour at Tim Hortons and they are still short of staff, we need to shut down some obsolete over priced retail establishments. Service will improve in the existing ones.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

Hate to say this, but reading comprehension > than you.
Seeing words is very different from reading.
Just as hearing is different from listening...
Sit down, read the thread 5 more times, and when you comprehend it please come back. Reading the first post not = reading whole thread.

By the way, GREY market is a term manufacturers made up. In no way it is illegal.



dover said:


> I just read through this whole thread and it kinda makes me laugh how contradictory you all are. So many of you are saying that you don't feel that an LBS should be making the mark ups that they are charging.
> How would you feel if someone said to you that you should be making less money than you make because you are charging too much. How would you like it if your boss took 60% off your salary because people in china are doing the same job as you for a lot less. Does that sound fair? Do you think that you are WORTH your salary?? Bike shop owners think they are WORTH their salary? If you think your salaries are so important then why is the LBS owner's salary not important at all? You do your job for a certain amount of money??? Bike shop owners sell bike products as their job, they do that for a certain amount of money. Is he or she not allowed to make money JUST LIKE YOU????
> 
> When you are considering a new bike part, do you go into the LBS and look at it first? Do you pick it up and see how much it weighs? Do you look at it from all angles and see how cool it is? Do you then you go home and give some crook in the UK (grey market sales) your money? What happens when the LBS closes its doors because you never buy anything from them, but wasted their time looking at the products first? How will you go and see the next exciting new bike part again if all of the bike shops close down. That guy in the UK cant let you see that new light set before you buy. He cant let you pick it up and play with it. He can't fix it if it's not working correctly. What happens when that fork you got at rock bottom prices blows a seal and there is no-one in canada left to repair it??
> ...


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## dover (Apr 5, 2007)

Export A said:


> "How much is your dollar worth? why is it worth so much more in the US then on this side of the border?"


Dude, you're arguing against points I didn't even make. What does my dollar's worth have to do with the other side of the border? you said it yourself..... it is the other side of the border. IT IS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY!!!!. how can you expect the prices of products to be the same down there as they are up here? they have a different currency, a different laws system, a different tax system. everything is different, now why should our retail prices be the same???? most of the products we get in canada never had anything to do with the US. they were ordered in canada from a factory in asia. months ago!

Lets use a product (any product) as an example.
Giant bicycle...... the Giant bikes you see in canada come from Giant Canada. not Giant USA. they were ordered in CDN funds from the factory in Taiwan. The Giant bikes in the US come from Giant USA. They order about 100 time more of each different model down there than we do up here. that is why their bikes or parts cost less. they have better buying power. the US dollar might also be stronger against the Taiwan Yen at the time of ordering. There are many more factors to this but I am not going to get into them all. (Unless you would like to )



Export A said:


> "do you like getting screwed.......if the answer is yes you are a truly spineless Canadian!"


How am i getting screwed??? 
I live in Canada. I get paid well, in CDN funds. I buy things using CDN currency from CDN stores. I dont see the screwing?????

If you would prefer to buy things in the US why dont you move to the US and really reap the rewards? Speaking of truly spineless Canadians!!!
No-one up here in canada is screwing you. the world is a complicated place that you don't seam to understand but no-one is screwing you.



Export A said:


> "have you not noticed the ads for" canadian consumer price adjustment" in the last 6 weeks?
> translation "oops sorry you caught us trying to screw you""


Yes, I have noticed these, and you are incorrect in your translation. This is retailers trying to help the non-understanding consumers. The retailers are taking the hit. In some cases the manufacturers are as well, but mostly it is the retailers. this has had to be done because people like yourself think the US and Canada should be the same place. (I dont, I like Canada, even with its flaws) These people do not understand that there are 2 very distinct countries here that do things very differently. We cannot expect to get the same pricing on things. buying is done on very different scales, with different currency. Their economy is tanking right now. people down there are losing their houses at about 9000 foreclosures a day. If you want the same things in Canada as they have in the US you have to take that sort of **** as well. the grass is NOT greener over there my friend.



Export A said:


> "as posted people are not above paying higher prices for convenience but above suggested retail and more than double on-line prices is friggen robbery.
> wake up and smell the coffee...or the Molsons my LBS friend...owner or employee....."


If there are stores charging above suggested retail that is what they feel the market can bare and what the product is worth, but its your responsibility as a consumer to not buy it from them. Now I agree that I would not want to buy from that guy either but the S in MSRP does stand for SUGGESTED retail price. That price is not set in stone. Wouldn't you like to make more money for some of the things you do? That is what the retailer is doing as well.

Now, dont get me wrong. I am all about saving money. I dont like giving one penny more for something than I need too, but I dont believe that the retailers are out to "screw us". I do think that retail outlets are necessary, especially in the bike industry. we have a thirst for the latest and greatest and I dont think people will want to buy everything from the internet "sight unseen". As I said in my last post, people will want to touch and feel the latest and greatest. you cant get that from the internet. Retail outlets cost lots of money to run, inventory, staff. I do believe that the people who have chosen this line of work deserve to be paid fairly for their efforts. By competing with internet sales they cannot be paid fairly.

I do believe we live in a distinct society (Canada) that has its goods and it bads. Its goods include health care, good roads, clean cities, fresh air, ect ect. It's bads include things like occasionally paying higher prices than other countries for the same product. I have chosen to take the good with the bad. you should too!
you can still be a smart consumer and a loyal canadian at the same time.

Oh and BTW, I am not a retailer, LBS owner or employee. I am a consumer just like you. i am also a realist.


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## rlim (Oct 28, 2007)

This may be off topic as the thread discusses LBS. 

My opinion regarding the whole discussion around Cdn vs US pricing, the distributors here in Canada and US are not willing to adjust the price of the product to reflect the stronger Cdn dollar. There is an article published in the Toronto Star Friday, Dec 14th in the Business Section that states that magazine publishers have removed US prices off the magazine covers to eliminate "confusion" in the marketplace. Price of magazine in the US that sells for $4.79 is selling for $5.99 in Canada. I just returned from Walmart and can confirm that majority of the mainstream magazines actually have US prices removed.

It was coincidental that a couple ahead of me in line at the cashier was discussing the same topic and we got into a discussion over it. I can understand that the Cdn dollar fluctuates and is now sitting around 98 cents; I would like to see the price of goods aligned closer to the US. It may not have to be on par, however the price should not be such a hugh gap.

Regarding off shoring of jobs …
I work in IT and work with our partners in Asia and South America. With the demand from majority of the mid and large corporations seeking competitive support cost, plenty of the helpdesk and development efforts have certainly been off shored. The Indians are experiencing Hugh demand from their services where the support staff are pretty much going through what north American experienced back in the 80’s … job loyalty. They’re demanding more money and leaving their jobs for better paying jobs. 

Then again we’re experiencing a similar challenge in Canada out west in BC. We’re proposing a helpdesk opportunity for a major client, using Canadian helpdesk resources. I was on a call with the helpdesk manager yesterday to review and discuss the proposed helpdesk solution. He raised concerns on retaining helpdesk resources as the market in BC is “hot” and to include additional funding into my solution. I’ve already factored risk/contingency into my solution and my reaction to his request is that we have to be competitive or we’ll lose the business. This is just an example of challenges North American face if they’re to compete globally. 

Mind you, India is just one place offering competitive labour. There are others which you don’t hear much of … Argentina, Brazil, etc …


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## dover (Apr 5, 2007)

*please enlighten me then*



bbgobie said:


> Hate to say this, but reading comprehension > than you.
> Seeing words is very different from reading.
> Just as hearing is different from listening...
> Sit down, read the thread 5 more times, and when you comprehend it please come back. Reading the first post not = reading whole thread.
> ...



Oh, yee of great wisdom. can you explain the "JIST" of this thread to me then.

I also fully comprehend the term "Grey Market" and you obviously dont.
The reason it is called grey market and not Black market is because it is not illegal, it is however unethical. Products on the grey market get that name because they were sold by the manufacturer for distribution somewhere other than where they actually get sold. 
IE. Shimano product from PBK.com. this was sold to a bike manufacturer to be assembled onto bikes. It is sold to them without packaging and installation instructions. they sell it to PBK.com who sells it to you. the reason they sell it so cheap is because it was intended to be assembled onto a bike. If you get an ultegra RD from them it comes in a bag not in a box.


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

dover said:


> Oh, yee of great wisdom. can you explain the "JIST" of this thread to me then.
> 
> I also fully comprehend the term "Grey Market" and you obviously dont.
> The reason it is called grey market and not Black market is because it is not illegal, it is however unethical. Products on the grey market get that name because they were sold by the manufacturer for distribution somewhere other than where they actually get sold.
> IE. Shimano product from PBK.com. this was sold to a bike manufacturer to be assembled onto bikes. It is sold to them without packaging and installation instructions. they sell it to PBK.com who sells it to you. the reason they sell it so cheap is because it was intended to be assembled onto a bike. If you get an ultegra RD from them it comes in a bag not in a box.



Everything I have ever ordered from PBK came in the original packaging.


You commented that the US and Canada are different therefore the pricing should be different. I guess we should just forget about NAFTA when it comes to Canadian consumers.


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## dover (Apr 5, 2007)

Export A said:


> Everything I have ever ordered from PBK came in the original packaging.
> 
> 
> You commented that the US and Canada are different therefore the pricing should be different. I guess we should just forget about NAFTA when it comes to Canadian consumers.



I didnt say the pricing SHOULD be different, I said that is WHY pricng is different. its logical that a country that can purchase more will get a better price. 
"the more you buy, the cheaper it gets" you know the saying.

NAFTA has nothing do with this. NAFTA covers items made in Canada, the US, and Mexico. and only very selected items at that. soft wood lumber, some clothing and stuff like that. do some research and you'll see that Mulroney pretty much just hooped us with that deal. But that is besides the point. NAFTA does not have anything to do with bicycle parts being sold in canada that were manufactured in the orient. Asia is not in north america therefore does not factor in. Very few bicycle parts get built in North America and the ones that do get built here, very rarely get sold at reduced prices (ie, Chris King).


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

dover said:


> Dude, you're arguing against points I didn't even make. What does my dollar's worth have to do with the other side of the border? you said it yourself..... it is the other side of the border. IT IS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY!!!!. how can you expect the prices of products to be the same down there as they are up here? they have a different currency, a different laws system, a different tax system. everything is different, now why should our retail prices be the same???? most of the products we get in canada never had anything to do with the US. they were ordered in canada from a factory in asia. months ago!
> 
> Lets use a product (any product) as an example.
> Giant bicycle...... the Giant bikes you see in canada come from Giant Canada. not Giant USA. they were ordered in CDN funds from the factory in Taiwan. The Giant bikes in the US come from Giant USA. They order about 100 time more of each different model down there than we do up here. that is why their bikes or parts cost less. they have better buying power. the US dollar might also be stronger against the Taiwan Yen at the time of ordering. There are many more factors to this but I am not going to get into them all. (Unless you would like to )
> ...


blah blah blah....Same old crap being churned over and over again...

I'm in the process of purchasing a new Specialized Tarmac from my LBS, they're getting $3000 of my hard earned cash for the bike. I got the pedals on ebay, and the Polar sensors and new Thompson seatpost are coming from PBK. Oh yea and I just got a new helmet off of ebay too. All that other stuff could have been purchased at the LBS, but I thought $3000 was a good gift to them and I thought it was time to save myself some cash.

So if you want to buy stuff at the LBS all the time, you go right ahead. I on the otherhand will spread my dollar around. Some stuff will come from the LBS, but a fair share will be found through online sources.

The fact remains that most of the stuff I want I can't get at the LBS without it being ordered anyway. I can go online myself and get it delivered more quickly and cheaply.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Wow...so heated. One simple fact - the principle of supply and demand will hold. 

Price = high, low demand, too much supply. Either price comes down, or someone goes out of business. Competition is good, forces people to be more efficient. So Cdn LBS charging too much vs. competition...hey, someone smarter will open an LBS that can actually compete vs. websites.

Paying prices higher than necessary because you're a nationalist? Not serious correct? Oh, and going back to that salary argument...how would I feel if I was told to cut my salary? Well, if there was someone just as good as me, available to work, and willing to work for less, and I couldn't find another job, I say tough luck for me. In fact, that's happening - look at all the jobs going to low salary, high education places like India. You want to keep your job - upgrade your skills! That would be the equivalent of an LBS offering better services to compete with lower prices.

If you want to pay C$ 139.99 for a pair of bike shoes that I paid US 75.00 for in order to keep $ in Canada...hey, go right ahead. Free country.


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

dover said:


> Oh, yee of great wisdom. can you explain the "JIST" of this thread to me then.
> 
> I also fully comprehend the term "Grey Market" and you obviously dont.
> The reason it is called grey market and not Black market is because it is not illegal, it is however unethical. Products on the grey market get that name because they were sold by the manufacturer for distribution somewhere other than where they actually get sold.
> IE. Shimano product from PBK.com. this was sold to a bike manufacturer to be assembled onto bikes. It is sold to them without packaging and installation instructions. they sell it to PBK.com who sells it to you. the reason they sell it so cheap is because it was intended to be assembled onto a bike. If you get an ultegra RD from them it comes in a bag not in a box.


Arguing with you would be like arguing with a 5 year old. So much crying and rage, and so little understanding.

Believe me, I understand much more about grey market than you do, especially since you've so gracefully shown how little you understand it.
I've delt with tons of stores that sell so called "grey market" goods, and its a helluva lot more sophisticated than that. And I can say, because I've always worked for the manufacturers. We call it grey market because we want to screw the customer.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Perfect competition, market forces dictate. Capitalism at it's best - that's what makes the economy work!



dover said:


> I just read through this whole thread and it kinda makes me laugh how contradictory you all are. So many of you are saying that you don't feel that an LBS should be making the mark ups that they are charging.
> How would you feel if someone said to you that you should be making less money than you make because you are charging too much. How would you like it if your boss took 60% off your salary because people in china are doing the same job as you for a lot less.
> 
> If fact is, my boss can hire an exact duplicate of me for less $, that's good for him/her! I'd better go upgrade myself so that I can "charge" more.
> ...


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## dover (Apr 5, 2007)

not heated at all. 


unagidon said:


> Wow...so heated. One simple fact - the principle of supply and demand will hold.
> 
> Price = high, low demand, too much supply. Either price comes down, or someone goes out of business. Competition is good, forces people to be more efficient. So Cdn LBS charging too much vs. competition...hey, someone smarter will open an LBS that can actually compete vs. websites. you cant compair apples to oranges. you arent talking about product only. LBS offer service that internet does not.
> 
> ...


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

dover said:


> not heated at all.



population..... 100X 
its 10X

what is stopping the guy in india from upgrading his skillset. 


who cares about the guy in India
This discusssion started about Price!!!Period!!!. 

you keep bringing service into the argument.?

They could offer the same prices as the internet but they would have to charge you to go into their store. 

do you remember the outlets called "Consumers Distributing" back in the 70's and 80's
ahead of their time.


Yes but what do you do if those shoes are just a bit too small? what then? what if they have a stitch come loose after 3 weeks of riding? What then? then you wasted $75 US and have to buy another pair or you have to go to the trouble of sending then back for warranty (if they will) and waiting for the them to be returned. 


I wouldn't buy any thing online that I wasn't sure of the sizing.
For the price paid I am willing to send it back for warranty.

Warranty is also available locally on many products.Having said that I am not going to pay double the price for that piece of mind.You must be a dream for retail salespeople...they can make big bucks selling you an extended warranty. 


Are you filthy rich? I'm not


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## bbgobie (Aug 13, 2007)

Warranty service better be pretty gd when paying 2x the price.  You've already paid for your replacement?

When you crash what happens? You might get lucky and be able to buy one a 2nd one at the same cost the person who bought online did. Your still losing.

Buying online does not mean no warranty. A lot of companies will pay shipping both ways, and in my experience this is the way to go, especially with computers and electronics.

Have a Hard drive fail? Have dell send you a new one next day shipping, and you ship the old one back in the same box. Buy that from Futureshop and what happens? You pack it up to the store, argue with some kid about why it should be covered, have him hassle you about not buying their warranty, and wait 60 days for a replacement, which they will mess up your computer installing something else for. No thx.

Seems like most people who are critical of buying online have not really looked into it or tried it. Kinda like Racism or any other stupid thing society has gotten over it. It's new, it's different and it's change, so it's scary.

For defective products that happen to come across my desk where a customer is alreayd upset, I would prefer to have defective products shipped and a replacement sent back. Relying on service centers to repair products is spotty at best. You dunno how qualified the person working on your stuff is, they get lazy, next thing you know a customer is without product for 6 months and yelling at you. They charge you whatever they want. Like a dirty car mechanic who tells you, you need a new flux capicitor.


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## dover (Apr 5, 2007)

......


Export A said:


> population..... 100X
> its 10X
> You're right , My bad. Point still holds true. they have better buying power, they get better prices. if you want their prices, you need to have their population.
> what is stopping the guy in india from upgrading his skillset.
> ...


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

dover said:


> ......


You are like a dog on a bone man.....Give it up....We could go on about this forever!

You do your thing and the rest of us will do our's....


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Dover has a different mentality than most of us. He places much more value on service. And either he's somewhat unsecure about his job, or he's thinking extremely long term where even if he upgrades himself, the educated guy in India/China/wherever can also upgrade him/herself to take his job. 

To each his own... I will continue to buy certain things from my bike shop when I feel it's good value for me (for example, forwarding Internet prices to him so that he'd match the price, but do free install for me). And when I want to take the risk, I'll buy from PBK, Nashbar, Performance, REI, etc... I love Internet shopping! Just bought 3 tacx real video's from PBK for $31 each, while most other places (internet sites included) sell for $40+, and free shipping!


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## Was98strat (Nov 21, 2007)

Export A said:


> Mecs prices are not all that fabulous anymore. Their selection has really taken a nose dive as far as cycle clothing is concerned. And cycle shoes! Its great that they sell Sidis if you have small feet other wise FORGEDABOUTIT I've been waiting for some 47s for the last 6 weeks.


I don't know about that...47 is a SIZE 13!!!!!! that's massive!

Average shoe size is around 10-11 ( 44-45)

Then again Ii'm a 44 and never had an issue getting cycling shoes from MEC!


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

Was98strat said:


> I don't know about that...47 is a SIZE 13!!!!!! that's massive!
> 
> Average shoe size is around 10-11 ( 44-45)
> 
> Then again Ii'm a 44 and never had an issue getting cycling shoes from MEC!


The wait is over I got them online for 175 instead of the MECS 239.00


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Export A said:


> The wait is over I got them online for 175 instead of the MECS 239.00


So just because you can save $64 (approx. 25%, and don't know whether you had to pay tax), you decided to buy from a website instead of a lbs? Shame on you! You're going to lose your job to Chinese, Indians, or Americans! 

I love the glorious internet. By the way, if you need a stem, the Ritchey 4WS is on sale for $30 at Nashbar - 70% off!


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## cyclocommuter (Jun 30, 2002)

Just want to add my 2 cents... I don't mind paying a few hundred more dollars for a bike so I could support my local LBS shop. 

Here is my story... Last Summer I was involved in a nasty crash during a group ride which landed me in a hospital and rendered my bike inoperable. The guys I was riding with called an ambulance and assisted me right after the crash. They also called the LBS which sent out a recovery vehicle to bring the bike to the shop. So when I decided to get a new bike recently I had no second thoughts on where to get it. They managed to give me a fair price for it and even threw in a water bottle, water bottle cage and a messenger bag for free.

Oftentimes its not just the sticker price on that bike or on those parts. Many thanks to the folks at D'Ornellas Racing Team in Scarborough Ontario!


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## Export A (Mar 18, 2007)

absolutely disgusting:thumbsup: 


View attachment 113558


PBK with free shipping

Look Keo Sprint Pedal Grey
RRP Can$100.88 You Save 8.35% PBK Price Can$92.45
Further Reduced By Another 15% Now OnlyCan$78.58!! 


Mountain Equipment Coop ....Canada's best price:lol: 
NEW
Look KéO Sprint Pedals

$165.00CAD

Product Number: 5013-528


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

Here's another one: 

Sigma Sport PC15 HRM 

Braun's Cycle: $129.98 Cdn + $10.34 shipping + $7.02 GST = $147.34
PBK: $51.43 + no shipping + no GST = $51.43


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## rlim (Oct 28, 2007)

What is the acornym for PBK? I would like to check out the site but isn't sure if it is Performance Bike .. Thanks


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## jitters (Jul 8, 2007)

rlim said:


> What is the acornym for PBK? I would like to check out the site but isn't sure if it is Performance Bike .. Thanks



PBK stands for ProBikeKit

http://www.probikekit.com/


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## rlim (Oct 28, 2007)

Thanks Jitters ...


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Just add to the fuel...Stopped by my LBS to check the price of 08 Specialized S-works road shoes....$415Can...$280US from the Specialized web site...This sucks!!!!


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2008)

The biggest contributor to the prices we pay is the fact that the CAnadian market has "distributors" for most products.

This practice is left over from the 1960's and in most cases we have only one distributor for the whole country.

Our stores cannot compariosn shop amongst various wholesalers or distributors, nor can they purchase directly from the manufacturer as the Mfrs. have signed exclusive deals with the distributors.

The worst is, of course, Lambert Cycles. On one of my favourite pet peeves - LAmbert are the primary distributor of tires in Canada. They charge your LBS more for a tire than you can buy the tire for in a store in the US or certainly on-line.

Given that the store has had to pay more for the tires than the PBK price it is no small wonder that tire prices are as high as they are.

I feel sorry for the LBS owners but they are getting shafted by the distributors in this chain.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Oh yea, I realize that...But, it still sucks!


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## 1speed_Mike (Feb 16, 2004)

Well, I just bought a front wheel from my LBS. Nothing too fancy: WI H2 laced to a DT Swiss RR1.2 with DT Aerolites (to match my rear PowerTap (which I bought from the US)). They actually came under where I was going to buy it from in the US (and, that's without including shipping)!

This is my second purchase at this LBS, but I'm sure there will be more. These guys are a small shop who don't deal with the big distributors, so they can be more flexible on pricing and have realized the discrepancy in pricing and have adjusted accordingly...they got my biz :thumbsup:


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## Jayzonk (Aug 14, 2006)

I'd be careful about blaming the distributors for prices on complete bikes. It's often not their fault either. What you are seeing right now in the US is a combination of the dollar difference, plus European brands are dumping their product on the US market at lower prices in order to expand their market share. This is a retaliatory move to US manufacturers who are expanding into traditional European markets. I know for a fact that some distributors cannot even buy product for the Canadian market for complete bikes at a comparable wholesale price that would be given to the US. It's crazy but it's true!
I think there's also some transfer pricing issues that are keeping prices artifically low in the States in an attempt to minimize taxes for the entire corporation. This would be true of European manufacturers that also distribute their product in the US.


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## superflychief (Mar 25, 2008)

I would love to support my LBS but I'd have to be an idiot to do that. Recently I made 2 big online purchases for my bike. I got EA70 wheels and the K-wing bar. I got the wheels shipped to my door for $400 where my LBS was asking $650 and the K-wing I got for $190 and the shop was asking 340. I'm not brain damaged and dont like throwing my money away on nothing. Bottom line is that I want to get as much for my dollar as possible so the $400 I saved by buying on line I can put towards more goodies.


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## kangaroo (Dec 19, 2007)

To All Those Internet Shoppers...

How about striking a balance between the two? Maybe try and save on the Web and then spending a few bucks at the LBS too? 

One day when you're thinking of the next disparaging comment against the LBS and dummy yourself in a pothole, whose gonna wrench your bike? Are you?, are you really that good? 

Sooner or later you'll have to bring the rig into the shop for something or other. And believe me when they say membership has its privileges. I recall last summer a rec rider taco'd his front wheel and hauled it back into the shop on a busy Saturday. The staff immediately recognised him and in 16 minutes was back on the road. Could the internet take care of that problem? Of course not. Why? It's called SERVICE. 

The bottom line for me is patience. If I can afford to wait, I probably will. If I need something asap, then off to the LBS I go. I don't begrudge them because I've made a point to establish a relationship with them. As a 'familiar face', even just dropping in to shoot the breeze is useful in maintaining the relationship and personalises your experience with them

We live in an age where technology(web stores) and the established (LBS) have violently collided. There are and will be more victims: small shops disappearing, Internet stores merging and offering less discounts ( BikeNashbar/Performance) and the consumer trying to make the best/most informed choice. 

I love cycling and probably always will, but something has to be said about the simplicity of bowling. What happened to the days of going to the bowling alley, plunking down a dollar for a lane and an extra dime for those stinky ,warm shoes? 

Oh yeah, I remember, my friend got a job in highschool and bought that hot sh!t Pinarello and that's when the real competing started. Not to be outdone, I got mine too. And so it started. Damn him.

OK- so I'm waiting for the requisite volley of criticism.


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## superflychief (Mar 25, 2008)

I make my large purchases online because the discount can't be ignored. I actually did buy my bike from an LBS but bought my fiance's online. Although I always do my own service, I occasionally go to the shop for suspension work or for repair parts for my bike and client's bikes. I do repairs/maintenance from my garage. I agree with supporting local business when you can but saving of up to 50% online can't be ignored.


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## kangaroo (Dec 19, 2007)

superflychief said:


> I make my large purchases online because the discount can't be ignored. I actually did buy my bike from an LBS but bought my fiance's online. Although I always do my own service, I occasionally go to the shop for suspension work or for repair parts for my bike and client's bikes. I do repairs/maintenance from my garage. I agree with supporting local business when you can but saving of up to 50% online can't be ignored.



Yep, that's pretty much the ideal balance under such circumstances. I wish we all had the moolah to throw at the LBS but damn, I know wheels are that much less online. But a 5 dollar tube or 20 buck cage...no way - off to the LBS I go !


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## superflychief (Mar 25, 2008)

The way I judge it is if the item online + shipping + duty < item at LBS + gas to drive there and time is not important then I get it online. My fiance's bike was purchased online as a close out on Jenson and was marked at 1100 down from 1700. My LBS couldn't even get within a couple of hundred bucks of the 1100 so that made our decision easy.


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## kangaroo (Dec 19, 2007)

That's a deal for sure...LBS can't beat online closeouts. It's the new economy. To me, the LBS must invent or revisit new ways to attract and/or keep business. Maybe a rewards program of some sort. Performance Bike has a pretty good one I hear. Perhaps the LBS are in some kind of denial. Sooner or later they'll have to come to terms with all the potential business flying out into cyber world. If not, confront the main perpetrators at the distribution level. Is greed the main driver of this? I don't really know...the argument of course is "everyone has to make a living" ... well, Darwin might be inclined to suggest something else. If the LBSs are to survive the electronic age, they'd better think of something more universally appealing.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

kangaroo said:


> That's a deal for sure...LBS can't beat online closeouts. It's the new economy. To me, the LBS must invent or revisit new ways to attract and/or keep business. Maybe a rewards program of some sort. Performance Bike has a pretty good one I hear. Perhaps the LBS are in some kind of denial. Sooner or later they'll have to come to terms with all the potential business flying out into cyber world. If not, confront the main perpetrators at the distribution level. Is greed the main driver of this? I don't really know...the argument of course is "everyone has to make a living" ... well, Darwin might be inclined to suggest something else. If the LBSs are to survive the electronic age, they'd better think of something more universally appealing.


As a cycling enthusiast I would hate to see local stores disappear from the scene, to only leave behind large chains such as "Sports Experts". Online shopping may be good for things such as tires, tubes, stems, seatposts, cycling computers etc. but full bikes? I like to try before I buy. 
If "Sports Experts" was my only choice then I'd be stuck either with Giant or Louis-Garneau frames. 
And what about tuning for us non-mechanics? I'll stick with my local store any time.


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## kangaroo (Dec 19, 2007)

*Hmm...Can the LBS wage any meaningful war against online shops?*

Now I'm wondering if the LBS can launch any specific war against online shops. Let's face it, for small items (tubes, cages , waterbottles etc), are you really going to pay 15 or 20 for shipping plus the 5 bucks for Canada Post...prolly not. Should the LBS be more aggressive in the small stuff department? Maybe they could, I'm not sure cause I don't know their margins.

I'm really on the fence on this issue because I'd really like to avoid small LBS 's from disappearing but inflation has increased in everything but my salary. We really need the expert mechanics doing their thing to ensure bike safety on the road, but can we still afford Mavics for $1200.00 ? The same one's online now for $850.00 or less? That's the difference. 

I'm attempting to disconnect myself from my horrible cycling conscious. My heart tells me to avoid ebay, my wallet says don't take your hand off that mouse. I'm torn between two paradigms. I can't seem to satisfy either one.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

kangaroo said:


> I'm really on the fence on this issue because I'd really like to avoid small LBS 's from disappearing but inflation has increased in everything but my salary. We really need the expert mechanics doing their thing to ensure bike safety on the road, but can we still afford Mavics for $1200.00 ? The same one's online now for $850.00 or less? That's the difference.
> 
> I'm attempting to disconnect myself from my horrible cycling conscious. My heart tells me to avoid ebay, my wallet says don't take your hand off that mouse. I'm torn between two paradigms. I can't seem to satisfy either one.


As so many posters before me said, try to find a good balance between LBS and online shopping. My GF recently purchased a Garmin 305 online. It took forever to get here but she did save over $50 after shipping and handling costs as compared to the LBS.

However I still like the feeling of walking into an LBS where the owner or mechanics know me by name, and don't charge me a dime for the occasional wheel truing.
Another LBS actually gives me a 10-15% discount for the whole year following the purchase of my bike on most items (jerseys, shorts, tires etc.)


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## kangaroo (Dec 19, 2007)

Couldn't agree more...Too bad we don't have the supply and demand like more populous countries do. Just because we look and act like a big country- as in the US/ Uk/France etc- doesn't necessarily mean it'll translate into showroom savings. 

I know for sure that the small shop owners are not millionaires. Oh well...I'm gonna take my bike out for a rainy spin after work. Can't solve the bikeworld's problem in a day !


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2008)

I love my local LBS however:

2008 Pinarello Prince Carbon
Bora Ultras
Record Group
Look Keo Ti
all the other high carbon goodies

Local LBS $14500

Wrench Science Online $11200

This was when the CDN $ was at par with the US dollar. As bad as I felt, I could not ignore the savings. The LBS' are not at fault - the Canadian distributors are to blame here.

Cheers!


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## kangaroo (Dec 19, 2007)

*Wrench Science*

You're the second person I know who's built a bike through Wrench Science. Unless of course your Prince is Yellow and you ride out of Gearz for Team RACE... then I already know you!

Nonetheless, that's too much too overlook. Can't blame you for trying to save 3500 bucks. 

Hey nice ride by the way.! Was considering the frame and swapping out the Dura Ace but realised there is no replaceable hanger 'cause you just never know...


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2008)

Not me. I am just a casual rider, 250 to 300km per week, and would never race a bike like that. I would not even race my Look 595. I would rather race a beater with decent wheels. The Pinarello in my "Sunday bike".

Cheers!



kangaroo said:


> You're the second person I know who's built a bike through Wrench Science. Unless of course your Prince is Yellow and you ride out of Gearz for Team RACE... then I already know you!
> 
> Nonetheless, that's too much too overlook. Can't blame you for trying to save 3500 bucks.
> 
> Hey nice ride by the way.! Was considering the frame and swapping out the Dura Ace but realised there is no replaceable hanger 'cause you just never know...


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## tungsten (Mar 24, 2008)

jhbeeton said:


> or get shoes custom fit by MEC?


Guy at MEC baked and fit the liners of my Garmonts. Did a damn fine job too!


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