# Best all around TT wheelset??



## MqtMtnBkr (Mar 29, 2009)

Looking for some opinions on a really good all around wheelset choice for a TT bike. Rider weight 135. 20-21 mph. 

what do you all think?


----------



## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

By all around, I guess you mean one set for any weather condition. It would depend on where you plan on racing and the average wind conditions you would see. 

Calm: HED Stinger Disk rear with Stinger 9 front. 

Windy: HED Stinger 9 rear and HED stinger 6 front. 

Disclaimer: I don't actually know anything about time trialing and I don't own a set of aero wheels, but I love to give opinions.


----------



## Ghost234 (Jun 1, 2010)

Wait, is 20-21mph your TT speed? If it is, don't bother with spending money on wheels because you won't see any benefit. I wouldn't bother with upgrading wheels until you start breaking 40km/h (25 mp/h) consistently. Put money into an Aero helmet and/or aerobars first, skin suit second, overshoes third and then worry about wheels and TT frames. 


There is also no "best" TT wheelset. It depends on wind conditions, hills, how many turns etc. For non-windy flat TT's you might be best off with a Hed tri-spoke with a zipp disc in the back, but on very windy/hilly TT's you might be best off with a set of 404's.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Haven't tried the Stinger disc, but I tried a flat disc and my Zipp Sub9. The Sub9 seems to be much easier for us smaller folk in a cross wind. If you're looking for one front wheel, the Edge 68 is deep without having to worry too much about not being able to use it most of the time. If it's too windy, I just swap out my Sub9 for an Edge 68 in back.


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Price Range? Also is there a weight your shooting for?


----------



## MqtMtnBkr (Mar 29, 2009)

trying to stay under 1500. no particular weight just trying to get best bang for the buck. the rider is not very heavy so no need for anything to beefy. these will be used for triathlons ranging from sprint to half ironmans.

really just trying to get some opinions. there is so much stuff out there its hard to choose.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

If you're looking for bang for the buck, used is a good option since triathlons have become a bucket list item these days. Provided you're not a Campy guy, used tri stuff by people who "were planning on doing lots of 'em" can be pretty abundant.


----------



## rudedog55 (Aug 10, 2009)

my opinion is use a set of 50-60mm deep wheels and get a wheelbuilder cover for the rear. You can make it a disk or leave it as a semi deep aero wheel set for training. Williams makes a nice 58mm deep wheel, and i use a set of Chinese made 60's that work great that did not cost an arm and leg, the wheelbuilder cover goes for about $100 i think. I also have a set of Tri spokes that cost me around $1200, but since i went with the 60 and cover, i do not use the rear much anymore.

best of luck


----------



## MqtMtnBkr (Mar 29, 2009)

rudedog - great idea. never thought about using the cover. this would make one set of wheels much more versatile. 

.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Ghost234 said:


> Wait, is 20-21mph your TT speed? If it is, don't bother with spending money on wheels because you won't see any benefit. I wouldn't bother with upgrading wheels until you start breaking 40km/h (25 mp/h) consistently. Put money into an Aero helmet and/or aerobars first, skin suit second, overshoes third and then worry about wheels and TT frames.


A) The slower you go, the more benefit there is to aero equipment*, so it certainly makes sense for the 20 mph rider to invest in aero wheels.

B) Aero wheels are about equal in effectiveness to an aero frame and both are far more effective than aero helmets and skin suits (both of which show wide variations in effectiveness for different models between individuals).

* As measured by time saved. If measured by drag reduction, there is no difference with speed. If measured by power saved, the benefit increases with speed.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Frame drag*



asgelle said:


> Aero wheels are about equal in effectiveness to an aero frame


Is this really the case? Last I heard, an aero frame was not going to give you 0.4 mph at 25 mph (0.6 km/hr at 40 km/hr) which is what the best wheels can offer compared to 32 spoke/box section rims. I haven't been keeping up on the frame side of things, so I would be impressed if there was that much speed increase/drag reduction from frame design. At least frame design that is UCI legal.


----------



## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

The new Hed Stinger 9 and Zipp Firecrest 808 (with a disc on the back) are probably neck and neck for winning the aero contest. 

If you are on a budget, there are other options.


----------



## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> Last I heard, an aero frame was not going to give you 0.4 mph at 25 mph (0.6 km/hr at 40 km/hr) which is what the best wheels can offer compared to 32 spoke/box section rims.


Actually that wouldn't surprise me... seems about right for the overall drag reduction between a top TT frame and a standard road model.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Kerry Irons said:


> Is this really the case? Last I heard, an aero frame was not going to give you 0.4 mph at 25 mph (0.6 km/hr at 40 km/hr) which is what the best wheels can offer compared to 32 spoke/box section rims.


The frame data comes from Jeukendrup, "High-Performance Cycling" comparing a Cervelo Prodigy to a P3 (aluminum).


----------



## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

MqtMtnBkr said:


> Looking for some opinions on a really good all around wheelset choice for a TT bike. Rider weight 135. 20-21 mph.
> 
> what do you all think?



With your body weight of 135, you probably have a far less drags than most of the cyclists out there.
I suggest a set of Kinlin XR-300 or 270 rims with CX-Rays spokes (20/24) on a good set of hubs. You might even be able to get away with 16/20, base on I have had no issue with 20/24, and I weigh 185 lbs.


----------



## jmt8345 (Feb 6, 2005)

Don't forget to look at Sram wheels i.e. S60s. Great bang for the buck wheelset. I have about 4k miles on a set (FP60s) and they are just like new still.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

The problem with most tests is that it's too hard to replicate and every single variable adds up. The most consistent way to test things is on the track, you tend to notice a lot of differences going into the wind, which is basically impossible to control and often hard to replicate. By virtue riding on a TT bike enough, you start to notice these differences.


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*Waaaaayyyy to may varaibles*

As you can see your getting answers all over the place......we really don't have enough info. Might help tp let us know what your currently riding and what areo products your currently using. Bike, current wheels, helmet, clothing. There could be some bigger aero benefits to gain for a heck of a lot less $$ than a new wheelset.

Than being said. My choice fo the biggest bang for the buck wheelset would be Planet X 82/101 (only available in tubular). From there - a rear disc would be an excellent choice and for $100 you could probably just have a wheelcover made for your current rear wheel and add a tri spoke on the front - used on ebay all the time for ~$500. 

I think you need to give us some additional info and narrow down what you want in a wheelset. I started doing Tris and TT last year and bought the Planet X wheels. Great wheels, but this year I'm looking to buy a little more additional speed (my 40k TT speed is about 24-24.5mph and my 20k TT is about 25mph). This year I'm possibly looking to switch to a tri spoke front/disc rear.

Michaek


----------



## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Kramer you saying a new helmet would make you faster than a new set of wheels?


----------



## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Kramer you saying a new helmet would make you faster than a new set of wheels?


Isn't it pretty commonly accepted that an aero helmet gives more bang-for-the-buck aero improvement than aero wheels?

Maybe not absolute speed (I'm having a hard time finding numbers), but the total power saved isn't that different, is it?

Asad


----------



## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*helmet*



asad137 said:


> more bang-for-the-buckAsad


Thats the key word since helmets are relatively inexpensive......
Then again so is wearing a $20 compression shirt instead of a baggy cycling jersey.

Michael


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

asad137 said:


> Isn't it pretty commonly accepted that an aero helmet gives more bang-for-the-buck aero improvement than aero wheels?
> 
> Maybe not absolute speed (I'm having a hard time finding numbers), but the total power saved isn't that different, is it?
> 
> Asad


I thought the conventional wisdom was that aero bars and helmets offered the most savings in resistance. Subsequently, they're generally the cheapest part of the equation. 

While there's still a variable amount of resistance savings with wheels, the bang for the buck isn't great. I believe the frame tend to offer similar numbers. 

Things like shoe covers and skin suits offer a little, but are cheap enough that most won't complain.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

spade2you said:


> I thought the conventional wisdom was that aero bars and helmets offered the most savings in resistance.


Aero bars add resistance, the position they allow reduces drag. The distinction is important because just slapping on a set of aero bars does not have any specific effect. It's not hard for many people to have lower drag in a good drops position than a bad aero bar one.

Helmets never reduce drag more than good wheels. The best they can do is equal them and then only with a perfect head-on wind.


----------



## trigeekyooper (Oct 20, 2010)

*More info*



KMan said:


> As you can see your getting answers all over the place......we really don't have enough info. Might help tp let us know what your currently riding and what areo products your currently using. Bike, current wheels, helmet, clothing. There could be some bigger aero benefits to gain for a heck of a lot less $$ than a new wheelset.
> 
> Than being said. My choice fo the biggest bang for the buck wheelset would be Planet X 82/101 (only available in tubular). From there - a rear disc would be an excellent choice and for $100 you could probably just have a wheelcover made for your current rear wheel and add a tri spoke on the front - used on ebay all the time for ~$500.
> 
> ...


Since he's asking for me, I'll give you more information. I'm on a Specialized Transition Comp with Mavic Aksiums (stock). I already have an aero helmet. I do roughly 10 - 15 triathlons per year (mostly sprints) and wear a Zoot race suit. I'm also planning on upgrading the cranks and seat post. The Aksiums are roughly 1800g, so I'm wondering if I should ride a lighter wheel, or an aero wheel.  I've also been debating clincher/tubular. I don't know much about the tubular wheels, having never used them before, so I've been leaning toward clincher.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

asgelle said:


> Aero bars add resistance, the position they allow reduces drag. The distinction is important because just slapping on a set of aero bars does not have any specific effect. It's not hard for many people to have lower drag in a good drops position than a bad aero bar one.
> 
> Helmets never reduce drag more than good wheels. The best they can do is equal them and then only with a perfect head-on wind.


Clip ons add a little more resistance, but I'd think most conventional TT bars will have less reistance than drops. Obviously, the better position is where the most resistance is saved. My Vision bars have a very small frontal profile. I could probably save more if I had the straigh ski poles, but that wrist position would probably give me problems. 

The article I saw a while back mentioned that aero helmets were ahead of wheels in savings, which made the watts/$ that much "better". Keep in mind the drag of a head on wind and the drag from going really fast aren't too different.


----------



## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

trigeekyooper said:


> Since he's asking for me, I'll give you more information. I'm on a Specialized Transition Comp with Mavic Aksiums (stock). I already have an aero helmet. I do roughly 10 - 15 triathlons per year (mostly sprints) and wear a Zoot race suit. I'm also planning on upgrading the cranks and seat post. The Aksiums are roughly 1800g, so I'm wondering if I should ride a lighter wheel, or an aero wheel. I've also been debating clincher/tubular. I don't know much about the tubular wheels, having never used them before, so I've been leaning toward clincher.



Aero is much more important than weight until around 7%-8% average grade, which is similar to what you'll find in the high alps. In fact, while a lighter wheelset will accelerate faster, and heavier wheelset has more forward momentum and will maintain speed better. The extra energy that it takes to accelerate a heavier wheel it not lost as many people assume, but is stored. In fact there are something called active mass spokes, which temporarily increase the rim weight while in the flats, but retract while at lower speeds (climbing) to reduce the rim weight.

From An article by Leonard Zinn

As the wheel’s rotational velocity increases, the weights are thrown to the outside of the wheel, effectively concentrating more mass out at the rim. And as the wheel slows down, the springs retract the weights back toward the center, effectively decreasing the rim mass. Inventor Russell Kalil originally came up with the idea while riding an interval workout on a stationary bicycle with a heavy flywheel.

“I thought it would be great to harness the momentum produced by a wheel with heavy rim weight, but with the advantages of a lightweight rim wheel during a hill climb,” says Kalil. “It’s like a figure skater doing a spin with their arms out; when they pull their arms back in, their spinning rate increases.”

He first utilized long, hollow fishing weights connected to rubber bands on his spokes. Now, the system is quite elegant, incorporating thread-together modular weights with a slot in them so that adjacent segments causes the slots to be offset and lock the weights onto the spoke.

I got a set to try, and the amazing thing is how strong the springs are. Two spring rates are available; there are springs for normal folk and then there are “professional” springs, which are much stiffer. The wheel must be spinning much faster for the same mass to move out to the rim with the stiffer spring, and you can tune the system to your preference not only with stiffer or less stiff springs, but also with different stacks of masses, as they thread together.

The angular momentum of each mass about the hub increases 16 fold as the radius to the mass increases from 3 inches to 12 inches. The idea is similar to what Ondrej Sosenka was thinking when he set the world hour record on a 10-pound rear wheel – the wheel’s high angular momentum maintains speed better, except that Active Spokes are not as hard to accelerate once you slow down, since the masses are concentrated near the hub. Active Spokes aid you in going downhill faster and carrying your momentum up the next hill."


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

spade2you said:


> Keep in mind the drag of a head on wind and the drag from going really fast aren't too different.


Different enough. Most manufacturers agree the most common yaw angles fall somewhere between 5 and 15 degrees. There has been only one article published suggesting an aero helmet can reduce drag more than aero wheels and that conclusion has been disavowed by the researchers quoted in it. Also, unlike wheels, aero helmets are very dependent on the rider's body shape and position. A helmet that works well for one person may be very poor for another.


----------



## trigeekyooper (Oct 20, 2010)

dcl10 said:


> Aero is much more important than weight until around 7%-8% average grade, which is similar to what you'll find in the high alps. In fact, while a lighter wheelset will accelerate faster, and heavier wheelset has more forward momentum and will maintain speed better. The extra energy that it takes to accelerate a heavier wheel it not lost as many people assume, but is stored. In fact there are something called active mass spokes, which temporarily increase the rim weight while in the flats, but retract while at lower speeds (climbing) to reduce the rim weight.
> 
> From An article by Leonard Zinn
> 
> ...


This answers one burning question. Thanks.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

asgelle said:


> Also, unlike wheels, aero helmets are very dependent on the rider's body shape and position. A helmet that works well for one person may be very poor for another.


Agreed 100%. I realize that TT helmets probably aren't best sellers, but I wish there were more options for different styles on the market. I also wish more were available with face shields, which I prefer unless it's extremely hot.


----------



## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

KMan said:


> Then again so is wearing a $20 compression shirt instead of a baggy cycling jersey.


And here I thought I was so clever for going and buying a compression shirt for my last TT!

Asad


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*Zipp*



MqtMtnBkr said:


> Looking for some opinions on a really good all around wheelset choice for a TT bike. Rider weight 135. 20-21 mph.
> 
> what do you all think?


Zipp 999, disc plus deep front. I have the clincher set. At least arguably, the clinchers have less rolling resistance. I use them with the Zipp Tangente clinchers and latex tubes. If the course does not involve a ton of climbing or wicked cross winds, I don't know what would be faster.

Anyone who says you too slow to benefit from aero equipment has no clue what they are talking about. Do some research and you'll see that the slower you ride, the _more_ time you save from aero stuff. If you are racing, you want every benefit you can get. The entire point of racing is to get to the finish as quickly as possible. If you are not racing, then don't worry about it.


----------



## Zipp0 (Aug 19, 2008)

20-21 mph TT - You'll be DFL with Discs F&R or open pros, so get whatever you want. (I'm not much better, so no offense intended!)


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*but*



Zipp0 said:


> 20-21 mph TT - You'll be DFL with Discs F&R or open pros, so get whatever you want. (I'm not much better, so no offense intended!)


But if he's 20-21 mph with Open Pros, he migh be 22-23 with aero wheels, especially if he makes bunch of aero improvements -- position, aero frame, aero bars, helmet, skinsuit.


----------



## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

How about proper training instead?
20 to 21mph on a TT bike, in the aero position?


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

nightfend said:


> How about proper training instead?
> 20 to 21mph on a TT bike, in the aero position?


Perfect. You know I had to sell my aero wheels. Everything was fine until I bought them, but then once they arrived, I could only train seven hours a week (down from the 18 I was doing before). Obviously performance suffered. Luckily, since getting rid of them, I can train 18 hours again and I'm improving.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*instead?*



nightfend said:


> How about proper training instead?
> 20 to 21mph on a TT bike, in the aero position?


To me, there is no "instead". You do both. If you have the money, you get the fastest equipment you can afford and train the best you can. If you have to choose between training and equipment, then it gets far more difficult to allocate resources. Equipment can pick up a quick 1-2 mph, but training can take you much further.


----------



## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

But what's the point of spending so much money on wheels if you are that slow? You certainly won't win any Time Trials. About the only thing you are doing is keeping the bike industry going.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

nightfend said:


> But what's the point of spending so much money on wheels if you are that slow? You certainly won't win any Time Trials. About the only thing you are doing is keeping the bike industry going.


How do you know how much that money means to the OP. Have you ever read the VeloNews story on Bill Cartwright buying a bike? You also don't know how fast the OP is relative to his/her peers. I know many poeple who have won TT's at that speed or slower. Heck, you could set a national record at that speed.


----------



## Zipp0 (Aug 19, 2008)

Fixed said:


> But if he's 20-21 mph with Open Pros, he migh be 22-23 with aero wheels, especially if he makes bunch of aero improvements -- position, aero frame, aero bars, helmet, skinsuit.


Going from open pros to aero wheels might mean going from 20-21 to 21.5 - maybe, depending on the wheelset and other factors. If he goes totally aero he would see bigger gains, as long as he trained to be comfortable in the TT position, and assuming the course is flat.

I say go for it. Do everything that you want to be faster. Just don't expect miracles from equipment.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

nightfend said:


> But what's the point of spending so much money on wheels if you are that slow? You certainly won't win any Time Trials. About the only thing you are doing is keeping the bike industry going.


Even though we consider this avg. TT speed a little on the slow time, what do we know about the OP's TT/tri routes? My ~40k route is full of rolling hills and runs north/south, which basically means you'll be fighting strong winds, especially the later your start time is. My average speed was usually about 22mph and put me near the lower 1/2 of Cat 4, but most people who aren't TT guys tend to skip the TTs all together. I tried a relatively flat course and happened to go on a day with minimal wind, and managed to average about 24mph, despite having to slow down significantly for a semi on the one hill of the route that was a little too wide to consider passing into oncoming traffic. These speeds were faster than last year despite having to cut my training significantly due to home repair costs (working overtime). 

I get annoyed with how people like to discount riders either with good TT gear or who spend a lot of time focusing on this discipline, but I do well because of how I (usually) train, know the routes inside and out, and use good gear. I have no doubt there would be a rider or two who might be faster if they upgraded, but that's their deal, not mine.


----------



## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

Most bang for buck? Skinsuit, aero helmet, and your position on the bike.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*illegal*

Energy storage devices like that are illegal in all forms of bike racing I'm aware of. 



dcl10 said:


> Aero is much more important than weight until around 7%-8% average grade, which is similar to what you'll find in the high alps. In fact, while a lighter wheelset will accelerate faster, and heavier wheelset has more forward momentum and will maintain speed better. The extra energy that it takes to accelerate a heavier wheel it not lost as many people assume, but is stored. In fact there are something called active mass spokes, which temporarily increase the rim weight while in the flats, but retract while at lower speeds (climbing) to reduce the rim weight.
> 
> From An article by Leonard Zinn
> 
> ...


----------



## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

I bought used wheels through slowtwitch. For $1100 I got an 808 front and Zipp disk rear. This was a steal and had very little use. The trick is to buy wheels from triathletes and find a woman or a super lightweight rider to buy a one season old wheelset from 
Avoid buying a used wheelset from a roadie or a Clyde.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mimason said:


> Avoid buying a used wheelset from a roadie or a Clyde.


You're probably right with normal racing wheels, but most TT stuff is handled a little more delicately and used for special occasions. A lot of roadies aren't terribly dedicated to the TT discipline, which would be a main reason a roadie is selling TT gear.


----------

