# bus passenger attacks cyclist



## bjm (Feb 21, 2005)

this is bizzare to say the least.....

http://easylink.playstream.com/katu/060117_trimet_attack_pkg.wvx


----------



## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

bjm said:


> this is bizzare to say the least.....
> 
> http://easylink.playstream.com/katu/060117_trimet_attack_pkg.wvx


This event played out about a month ago in Portland, OR. The story is that dude riding his bike over one of Portland's many bridges gets buzzed (he claims) by the bus. He was not on the designated bike path on the bridge because, he claims, it contained dangerous amounts of gravel. He catches said bus and stands in front. Bus driver lets aggrieved passenger off bus to assault cyclist. Passenger then gets back on bus and bus continues on route. Cyclists sues transit authority.

Lots of blame to go around. Lots of hashing and rehashing in Portland blogs and forums. Coverage in the news.


----------



## Thommy (Sep 23, 2003)

*Very unfortunate*

Hopefully the victim will win his lawsuit.


----------



## studiddy (Sep 27, 2005)

From what I have gathered here I hope he loses. Gravel or not, if there is a bike land and he's not in it, what does he realistically expect? Like the jackasses who jog in the bike lane around here and get pissed if I don't go out of my way to avoid them. Run on the sidewalk. If I were on the bus I'd want to beat his ass too for standing in front of it.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Oh yeah!*



studiddy said:


> From what I have gathered here I hope he loses. Gravel or not, if there is a bike land and he's not in it, what does he realistically expect? Like the jackasses who jog in the bike lane around here and get pissed if I don't go out of my way to avoid them. Run on the sidewalk. If I were on the bus I'd want to beat his ass too for standing in front of it.


That vigilante justice - it's the best! And you bet, city bus drivers should not only buzz cyclists, they should encourage their passengers to beat up anyone who gets in their way. Or, they could just save time and run over the bike riders. This is the way things should work, in your bizzarro world.


----------



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Kerry Irons said:


> That vigilante justice - it's the best! And you bet, city bus drivers should not only buzz cyclists, they should encourage their passengers to beat up anyone who gets in their way. Or, they could just save time and run over the bike riders. This is the way things should work, in your bizzarro world.


ROLF! Good one, Kerry.


----------



## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

*Ohh jeeeez.*



studiddy said:


> Gravel or not, if there is a bike land and he's not in it, what does he realistically expect?


And therein lies the argument _against_ having bike lanes. Are you sure you shouldn't be at forums.carsrule.com?

Btw, as far as I know, streets are softer than sidewalks, which is why joggers prefer them. I agree they can be a nuisance, but at least there's a reason why ...


----------



## M.J. (Jan 28, 2004)

*Beware*

troll flamebait contained here


----------



## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

For those interested in more details including a mini-interview with the assailant (last link)...

http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/13/cyclist-sues-trimet/
http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/17/mainstream-media-coverage-of-albrighttrimet-suit/
http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/23/witness-says-bus-driver-didnt-like-cyclists/
http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/20/reactions-to-the-maelstrom/
http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/27/trimet-passenger-talks-to-the-tribune/


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

*running on asphalt v. concrete*

the notion of someone running on asphalt (the street) because it is "softer" than concrete (the sidewalk) is specious.

the asphalt would indeed be "softer" if the runner weighed a couple of tons; but even a 250 pound runner won't make a dent (literally) in the asphalt.





DrRoebuck said:


> And therein lies the argument _against_ having bike lanes. Are you sure you shouldn't be at forums.carsrule.com?
> 
> Btw, as far as I know, streets are softer than sidewalks, which is why joggers prefer them. I agree they can be a nuisance, but at least there's a reason why ...


----------



## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

stuart said:


> the notion of someone running on asphalt (the street) because it is "softer" than concrete (the sidewalk) is specious.
> 
> the asphalt would indeed be "softer" if the runner weighed a couple of tons; but even a 250 pound runner won't make a dent (literally) in the asphalt.


I don't think you have to make a "dent" in order for your body to appreciate a difference. I don't know this for a fact, but it's something I've read here and there.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Specious?*



stuart said:


> the notion of someone running on asphalt (the street) because it is "softer" than concrete (the sidewalk) is specious. the asphalt would indeed be "softer" if the runner weighed a couple of tons; but even a 250 pound runner won't make a dent (literally) in the asphalt.


How about some simple experiments? Put down the kickstand on that Huffy on asphalt and see how soon it leaves a dent. There is NO QUESTION than asphalt is more forgiving under a foot strike than concrete. No advanced scientific understanding to see/feel this.


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Lack of maintenance*

for the bike laneshould be grounds for another suit. Our local bike lanes aren't maintained of debris and are unsafe to ride on. In one 2 mile section I ruined 2 tubes and cut a brand new Conti Gatorskin, so I had to walk home.


----------



## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Here's the video link*

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/multimedia/index.ssf?MM_trimet011606


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

*where is the asphalt?*

The asphalt in your driveway is likely to be "soft" and "dentable" with a kickstand. The asphalt on the street in a McNeighborhood is likely to be soft and dentable. (Asphalt that was poured as quickly and cheaply as possible)

The asphalt on a major approach to a major city (Portland OR in this case) carries big busses full of people (see the video) and 18 wheelers full of goods. These vehicles weigh dozens of tons. 

If that asphalt is "soft" and "dentable", then the local taxpayers are keeping the road crews busy 24/7!

A simple test would be to go out to a real asphalt roadway that carries truck and bus traffic. Try to "dent" it with your kickstand and take a picture of the results for us to see.








Kerry Irons said:


> How about some simple experiments? Put down the kickstand on that Huffy on asphalt and see how soon it leaves a dent. There is NO QUESTION than asphalt is more forgiving under a foot strike than concrete. No advanced scientific understanding to see/feel this.


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

*where is the asphalt?*

The asphalt in your driveway is likely to be "soft" and "dentable" with a kickstand. The asphalt on the street in a McNeighborhood is likely to be soft and dentable. (Asphalt that was poured as quickly and cheaply as possible)

The asphalt on a major approach to a major city (Portland OR in this case) carries big busses full of people (see the video) and 18 wheelers full of goods. These vehicles weigh dozens of tons. 

If that asphalt is "soft" and "dentable", then the local taxpayers are keeping the road crews busy 24/7!

A simple test would be to go out to a real asphalt roadway that carries truck and bus traffic. Try to "dent" it with your kickstand and take a picture of the results for us to see.








Kerry Irons said:


> How about some simple experiments? Put down the kickstand on that Huffy on asphalt and see how soon it leaves a dent. There is NO QUESTION than asphalt is more forgiving under a foot strike than concrete. No advanced scientific understanding to see/feel this.


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

"Learn to run properly and the surface on which you run will matter very little. I have, quite literally, run barefoot on concrete with no ill effects.

Steve Freides, NSCA-CPT, RKC"

"Recent clinical studies, however, have looked at the kinematic
adjustments runners make. That is, how “runners adjust the stiffness
of their stance leg to accommodate surface stiffness during steady
state running.”

“Runners Adjust Leg Stiffnesss For Their First Step on a New Running
Surface,” by D.P. Ferris, K. Liang and C.T. Farley. Journal of
Biomechanics, vol. 32, issue 8, pp. 787-794, August 1999.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10433420&dopt=Abstract


What this suggests is that as runners adapt to whatever surface they
are running and lessening the ill effects that might otherwise be
expected from running on a harder surface, which would go to support
your hypothesis that there is no real difference."





Kerry Irons said:


> How about some simple experiments? Put down the kickstand on that Huffy on asphalt and see how soon it leaves a dent. There is NO QUESTION than asphalt is more forgiving under a foot strike than concrete. No advanced scientific understanding to see/feel this.


----------



## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

stuart said:


> the notion of someone running on asphalt (the street) because it is "softer" than concrete (the sidewalk) is specious.
> 
> the asphalt would indeed be "softer" if the runner weighed a couple of tons; but even a 250 pound runner won't make a dent (literally) in the asphalt.


Before I blew out my knee and thereby removed 2/3s of my miniscus, I would have agreed with you. Now that I have much less cushioning in my knee, I can state without a doubt that the asphault is softer than concrete and it can be a very noticable difference.


----------



## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

studiddy said:


> From what I have gathered here I hope he loses. Gravel or not, if there is a bike land and he's not in it, what does he realistically expect? Like the jackasses who jog in the bike lane around here and get pissed if I don't go out of my way to avoid them. Run on the sidewalk. If I were on the bus I'd want to beat his ass too for standing in front of it.


Brilliant... not. An adjacent bike lane whether safe to use or not does automatically require the cyclist use it legally speaking. Nor does it's mean a motorist has the right to not pass safely or for a knucklehead like you to commit assault and battery. Why someone such as you would ever look at much less participate in cycling forum is baffling. Have a nice ride... and watch your back.


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

*barefoot on any surface...*

..and loving it!

http://tinyurl.com/d9w8v

apparently it is all about the stride. (sorry to hear about your knee)



bsaunder said:


> Before I blew out my knee and thereby removed 2/3s of my miniscus, I would have agreed with you. Now that I have much less cushioning in my knee, I can state without a doubt that the asphault is softer than concrete and it can be a very noticable difference.


----------



## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

stuart said:


> apparently it is all about the stride.


That doesn't mean that one is not softer than the other. It just means that an experienced runner can adapt.


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

*skydiving w/failed parachute*

Punch asphalt as hard as you can with your strongest arm. Then pull your fist out of the gooey softness that is asphalt... and then punch concrete as hard as you can with your other arm. 

Ask an orthopedic surgeon at the nearest hospital to rate the destruction of each of your hands/arms. The arm that sustained the least amount of damage is the one that hit the asphalt; no doubt!

And so: running on concrete with padded shoes, designed to cushion impact on any surface at all, is much *harder* on your body than running on asphalt? If that asphalt, any asphalt, is buckling under the weight of your padded shoes as you strike the pavement - odds are that your weight could use a little trimming. The padding in your shoes is what gives - not the surface you are running on. 

If anyone can demonstrate that asphalt literally "gives" or buckles under a runner's weight (hence cushioning the stride), then you'll get lots of media attention and we'll all see it on Nightly News. Otherwise, the notion that asphalt is softer for a runner than concrete is a specious one.




DrRoebuck said:


> That doesn't mean that one is not softer than the other. It just means that an experienced runner can adapt.


----------



## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

stuart said:


> If anyone can demonstrate that asphalt literally "gives" or buckles under a runner's weight (hence cushioning the stride), then you'll get lots of media attention and we'll all see it on Nightly News. Otherwise, the notion that asphalt is softer for a runner than concrete is a specious one.


Pull out any civil engineering or technical construction book and you will see that asphalt is softer than concrete. You do not have to reach a material’s yield point to have it elastically deform from a low force impact - if you took a high speed camera and recorded a runner's impact on asphalt and concrete, you would see that both will deflect - the amount will be minuscule, but it will deflect non-the-less. I will further state that the asphalt will show more deflection; just because you consider it a negligible amount - does not mean it is not an actuality.

BTW - input from my wife ( degreed geotechnical engineer); concrete is classified as an rigid pavement and asphalt is a flexible pavement.


----------



## Djudd (Jan 29, 2004)

*Two arrogant idiots, one on a bike...*



bjm said:


> this is bizzare to say the least.....
> 
> http://easylink.playstream.com/katu/060117_trimet_attack_pkg.wvx


the other on a bus, they eventually clash. This incident is NOT indicative of any larger problem, other than reasonable people need to get jackasses out of our lives. If you get buzzed by a metropolitan transit bus you write down the number and report it to the proper folk. Standing in front of it, demanding an apology, is stupid and selfish. Unbelievable!!!! Typical of a child (my feelings are hurt and everyone must know!!!). 
The passenger is just as ridiculous. This tape should be played in grade schools to show how NOT to handle conflicts. It is truly bizarre that the our country has any tolerance for this kind of behavior. 
peace


----------



## stuart (May 21, 2005)

*very scholarly*

I'll look for your article in Runner's World Magazine or similar publication! Please post here when the publication date is set. JAMA is likely to publish your findings. It will be big news in both the realms of running and sports medicine. Those African runners who compete in the NYC Marathon every year sans shoes will no doubt make mention of your research before and after this years' event. You've transformed their sport for them - They'll insist on asphalt-only courses now that you've proven it is softer on their bare feet. It will be crucial to saving their careers as athletes.

You've revolutionized the sport and science of running, right here on Roadbikereview.com!





bsaunder said:


> Pull out any civil engineering or technical construction book and you will see that asphalt is softer than concrete. You do not have to reach a material’s yield point to have it elastically deform from a low force impact - if you took a high speed camera and recorded a runner's impact on asphalt and concrete, you would see that both will deflect - the amount will be minuscule, but it will deflect non-the-less. I will further state that the asphalt will show more deflection; just because you consider it a negligible amount - does not mean it is not an actuality.
> 
> BTW - input from my wife ( degreed geotechnical engineer); concrete is classified as an rigid pavement and asphalt is a flexible pavement.


----------



## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

stuart said:


> ..and loving it!
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/d9w8v
> 
> apparently it is all about the stride. (sorry to hear about your knee)


Back in high school, I and the rest of my team would do our preseason conditioning barefooted, so I'm familiar with its benefits and pitfalls. Yes, stride can help, but only up to a point - in my case; even with coaches for my stride, I am no longer able to run >5k on concrete; yet, I can run 15k+ when the majority of the surface is asphalt. For soccer (where I blew out my knee), it really doesn't matter as dirt/grass is much more supple. 

Hurting my knee wasn't all that bad - it got me back into cycling


----------



## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

stuart said:


> I'll look for your article in Runner's World Magazine or similar publication! Please post here when the publication date is set. JAMA is likely to publish your findings. It will be big news in both the realms of running and sports medicine. Those African runners who compete in the NYC Marathon every year sans shoes will no doubt make mention of your research before and after this years' event. You've transformed their sport for them - They'll insist on asphalt-only courses now that you've proven it is softer on their bare feet. It will be crucial to saving their careers as athletes.
> 
> You've revolutionized the sport and science of running, right here on Roadbikereview.com!


I'm sorry you don't have the mental fortitude to comprehend what I was saying - the fact that concrete is harder does not make it a surface that is unable to be run upon. I would venture to say that you obviously are not a runner yourself, nor do you have any friends or acquaintances that run distances either. If you did - they would tell you the same thing - and so would the bare-footed marathon runners - that concrete is noticeably harder than asphalt; especially over the duration of a marathon. Since you seem to be so intent on keeping to your guns - please go out and do a little research on the subject and talk to some of those that you say I should notify. I'm sure you'll be heart broken to find out that the information that I have shared is nothing new to them - apparently only to you.

for some references:
Running Injuries -- Starting Off on the Right Foot -- Part II 
Runnersworld - A 7-Step Plan for Running Injury-Free 
RUNNING AND JOINT HEALTH -- ASPHALT vs. CONCRETE? 
RUNNING SURFACE-THE HARD FACTS 

I only spent a few minutes with the search engines to find the above articles - please spend at least a couple minutes educating yourself before making blind assumptions.


----------



## jimcav (Jun 15, 2003)

*SPECIOUS? 2 different subjects*

yes concrete is harder (proven to transmit more shock from a runner's impact) 
yes you can adapt to surfaces.
apart from the science showing the forces, i myself can feel it--an aircraft carrier deck was harder than concrete, which was about equal to frozen tundra in alaska, which was harder than asphalt. I have bad biomechanics and so like to run on grass and dirt (not frozen). a guy with bad ankles (poor stability from many sprains for instance) might prefer concrete to grass. sometimes the crown of a road means the asphalt sucks to run on--you could adapt to that angle to, but liekly you'd get an over use injury before you did.

and why so adamant on bike lanes--if they are full of crap why ride there. if the shoulder or bike; lane is full of shards and such then i stay in the road. 
unless local law requires it, the bike lane is open to bikes and closed to cars, not that the road is the other way around

jim


----------



## M.J. (Jan 28, 2004)

stuart said:


> I'll look for your article in Runner's World Magazine or similar publication! Please post here when the publication date is set. JAMA is likely to publish your findings. It will be big news in both the realms of running and sports medicine. Those African runners who compete in the NYC Marathon every year sans shoes will no doubt make mention of your research before and after this years' event. You've transformed their sport for them - They'll insist on asphalt-only courses now that you've proven it is softer on their bare feet. It will be crucial to saving their careers as athletes.
> 
> You've revolutionized the sport and science of running, right here on Roadbikereview.com!


am looking forward to your first post here asking for help, advice and/or tips - everybody's gonna bend over backwards to help you out

if you wanna get into these kinda brawls - you should go to the politics forum

if I were you I'd change my handle, log in and try again


----------



## VictoriaJujitsu (Feb 17, 2006)

I'm not a serious runner, but I usually run on the road (not busy ones). It's not because of asphalt vs concrete, but because the sidewalk doesn't allow a nice steady stride because of curbcuts at driveways and crosswalks, tree roots (in my area), and dodging baby strollers.

Just a different perspective on why a runner might be avoiding the sidewalk.


----------



## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

bsaunder: Wheeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
MJ: Wheeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
Victoria: That makes a lot of sense. Seems like a lot of those reasons are the same as why cyclists [should] avoid sidewalks. That, and because the asphalt is easier on our bikes.


----------

