# Faster Single Speed? (old bike or new)



## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

I love the single speed... I ride it at least once a week - twice this week. It's not just a novelty that I dust off a couple times a year... I can't explain it to my club mates - you guys get it - but, I think I like riding the SS more than my "other" bike. 

My other bike is the typical carbon multi-speed and weighs in around 16 pounds, and of course, it's very stiff, very quick. 

My single speed is around 19 pounds... and, not so stiff. The Stage was a touring bike (it had a triple) and I suspect the frame was designed with long 15mph rides with panniers and pretty views... not 60 miles at 23 mph, in rotating pace lines, battling for county sprint lines. 

So, after Saturday's big group ride (sprints, attacks, breaks, gaps... all the typical fun of a group ride), I starting thinking... Should I build a "modern" single speed, e.g. carbon frameset, light/stiff wheels (my SS has Aksiums), better components, etc?

The "bike vs. rider" discussion has been beaten to death - we know it's the rider, the engine, the legs, the lungs... But. But, I still wonder... I mean, I know playing at the front of the Saturday ride on a single speed makes it harder, but is doing it on a soft, squishy, heavy (ish) making it any, significantly, noticeably harder?

(or am I a typical cyclist trying to justify the N+1 mantra?)


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## dwt (Apr 2, 2002)

A light frame to power uphill in a high SS gear would be great. 
Do it


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

For sure, it's the rider.
But. It is also the bike. This year I really splurged on a high-end MTB and am now much faster than before and able to keep up w/ my friends, when I didn't used to be able to. It's not my fitness, it's two things- lighter bike and wheels and better skills. I know the skills are a big part of it, but I am absolutely certain that the new bike is helping.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

I think we're dodging the real question here.

Would you enjoy riding a newer, lighter, fancier single speed bike more than your current one? Is your love of riding single speed because it's a single speed alone, or is part of the appeal because it's _that_ bike?

If you'd have fun building up a new one, would enjoy riding the new one just as much or more than your current one, then knock yourself out. When you come to, go ahead and build the new bike.

On the other hand, you may find yourself with a nice carbon single speed that collects dust because it just doesn't feel the same as your trusty old Klein. There are plenty of people who have built up a new bike because, on some level, they felt like they _should_ want the fancy new whiz-bang-ama-jig or they _should_ care more about the bike's performance than they actually do.

So I'd say there are two scenarios that justify building up a new bike in this instance:

1) You're honestly dissatisfied with the performance of your current bike.

2) You want the fun of building a new bike.

If neither of these describe your motivation, I'd suggest saving the money and enjoying some really fancy meals or a blinging up your old trusty Klein instead. There's nothing wrong with being satisfied with what you have.


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## fatnold (Jul 11, 2009)

I know what you're saying. I love riding fixed in the Saturday morning bunch. Would love something a little more refined than my Soma Rush but it is hard to find high end frames with track drop outs and highish bottom bracket. Been thinking a racey carbon road frame with BB30 and an eccentric bottom bracket adapter might be the answer.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

UrbanPrimitiv and fatnold - I think it's a bit of both... I really do like the old Klein, the classic look, that paint... that paint. And what cyclist doesn't get excited about planning out and building a new bike. But (as fatnold is experiencing too), hanging with a bunch of "A-Group" roadies on a fast ride - on a flexy, heavy bike can be tough - assuming matched or close fitness levels.

Going back and forth from my other bike - Scott Addict SL (carbon), Ultegra and Dura-Ace, etc., the best way I can describe the ride of the Klein is: imagine if the roads were paved by Serta - where every pedal stroke is absorbed or "cushioned" - particularly when standing. Oh, it's comfy... just not so efficient. 

Maybe the thing to do is put my other wheels on the Klein - Ksyriums - and see how much of the side-to-side flex goes away (the Aksiums kiss the brake pads on each standing pedal stroke). And, if that shows significant improvement, maybe a carbon fork - to eliminate that curved touring fork - to limit the visible (!) elongating of the wheelbase with each standing pedal stroke.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Hmmm....Klein's aren't known to be squishy. Or noodly. While the stiffness could vary based on model (and tubing choice), most Kleins were known for being fairly stiff. 

And, no, it is not a touring bike. The chain stays are way too short for that. The Stage was designed as a basic road/sport bike...with a triple. The Quantums were the serious race bikes.

By the way, how much do you weigh?

If the rear wheel is tagging the brake pads, take a look at the wheels. Is all of this happening when you stand and really honk on the pedals? I won't say that "it comes with the territory" when riding fixed or single speed, but you do end up in situations where you are wildly overgeared and transmit a lot of twist/torque through the bars and pedals, way more than if you were properly geared.

Also, the "elongating" wheelbase probably isn't the curved fork blades, but rather the 1 inch steerer. If the fork is flexing when you stand and honk on the pedals, I'll bet that it is the steerer or crown flexing at the crown race on each downstroke. Is it a steel steering tube? Or aluminum? A new fork with a carbon steerer (your fork might already have carbon legs, if I'm not mistaken - some years had a Trek-sourced OCLV fork, and some years had a Klein aluminum fork) might stiffen it up a bit. 

I'd also check the fork around the crown/steerer for cracks, etc., if it is really flexing on you. Especially look along the crown race - that's a high stress area.


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## jrm (Dec 23, 2001)

Ive ended up with a on one v4 pompino with a mary & 68GI gearing. Its a fun hack around bike and great to commute on thats for sure.


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## UrbanPrimitive (Jun 14, 2009)

I'm inclined to agree with Gregory Taylor on the damaged fork theory. Seeing the fork flex so much that it's noticeably elongating your wheelbase sounds like something is wrong. The fork in the photo definitely looks like a traditional steel fork with a 1" steerer tube. If you want to hang onto this beauty you may consider replacing the fork with something stiffer.

I could be wrong, but the frame itself appears to be made from over-sized aluminum tubing with some seriously beefy chainstays and seat stays. I strongly suspect the culprit behind your brake rub when mashing out of the saddle is wheel flex. When hammering out of the saddle, the softest component will flex first and will flex the most. The brake rub your getting sounds to me like the vast majority of your force is being transmitted to the wheels rather than flexing the stays. Stiffer wheels may very well fix the problem entirely.

With all that said, it's kind of funny looking at how beefy the back end of that bike is compared to the front. The stays are monstrous by most standards today, but the headtube and fork steerer look out of place with their willowy dimensions. It's an interesting juxtaposition in that the dimensional and stiffness priorities appear to be almost exactly reversed compared to current trends. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with it, but it's interesting to notice.


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Klein riders used to call the Cannondale folks *****s for riding such soft, flexy bikes...and my CAAD3 was nicknamed "Blunt Force Trauma" for the ride that it imparted. Cipollini rode a CAAD3, and that was all that mattered at the time.

You are right that Klein road bikes are oversized aluminum. The Quantum was a kick as bike back in the day.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

I built a 17lb singlespeed bike based on a track frame and it is a blast to ride. But not for a group ride where there is a lot of climbing and/or a lot of fast peloton riding. 

Last weekend I did a group ride (100 miles in just over 5 hours) and without gears I would have been screwed. We climbed about 4000 feet, but the real ugly part was the last 25-30 minutes where we were going 31-35 mph. There is no way I could do that with the 48:16 gearing on my SS.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

serious said:


> I built a 17lb singlespeed bike based on a track frame and it is a blast to ride. But not for a group ride where there is a lot of climbing and/or a lot of fast peloton riding.
> 
> Last weekend I did a group ride (100 miles in just over 5 hours) and without gears I would have been screwed. We climbed about 4000 feet, but the real ugly part was the last 25-30 minutes where we were going 31-35 mph. There is no way I could do that with the 48:16 gearing on my SS.


Ya just need a bit more gear! 

I ride my SS on the Saturday group ride (60 miles, 4,000' gain, 21-22 mph avg.) pretty regularly (like yesterday). The 52:18 spins out - for me anyway - at about 34 mph. The steeper sections are tough. I usually, move left and go a head of the group to keep a reasonable cadence. 

100 miles would be hard. My quads take a beating on that 60-mile ride... 100 would hurt.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Gregory Taylor said:


> Hmmm....Klein's aren't known to be squishy. Or noodly. While the stiffness could vary based on model (and tubing choice), most Kleins were known for being fairly stiff.
> 
> And, no, it is not a touring bike. The chain stays are way too short for that. The Stage was designed as a basic road/sport bike...with a triple. The Quantums were the serious race bikes.
> 
> ...


Lots of great info in here - thanks! 
- Good correction on the "touring" bike bit. I kinda lumped the non-race lines into the touring group. But, nope. You're right. 
- Great point - pushing a 52:16 up steep hills puts a TON of force through the entire bike. I actually worried about pulling the damn handle bar off the bike at one point! The amount of force... I kept looking at that old bar... envisioning it braking UPWARD from how hard I have to pull. I inspected that fork... no crack.
- I'm about 188 lbs. 
- And finally... I am thinking more an more (based on this feedback) that those $225 wheels are likely the majority of the flex I'm feeling. Easy test huh... just swap'em with the other bike and see how it feels. 

Thanks again!


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

UrbanPrimitive said:


> Stiffer wheels may very well fix the problem entirely.
> 
> With all that said, it's kind of funny looking at how beefy the back end of that bike is compared to the front. The stays are monstrous by most standards today,


I think you're right about the flex coming from the cheap wheels. It may be that that pic is making both chainstays look like one - making them look FAT.

This pic shows the chainstays a bit better...


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

OldZaskar said:


> Ya just need a bit more gear!
> 
> I ride my SS on the Saturday group ride (60 miles, 4,000' gain, 21-22 mph avg.) pretty regularly (like yesterday). The 52:18 spins out - for me anyway - at about 34 mph. The steeper sections are tough. I usually, move left and go a head of the group to keep a reasonable cadence.
> 
> 100 miles would be hard. My quads take a beating on that 60-mile ride... 100 would hurt.


I actually have more gear than you at 48:16, but I admit to be a poor spinner. In fact, I am no longer comfortable after about 23-25 mph. I cannot imagine spinning my SS at 34 mph, even for 10 seconds.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

serious said:


> I actually have more gear than you at 48:16, but I admit to be a poor spinner. In fact, I am no longer comfortable after about 23-25 mph. I cannot imagine spinning my SS at 34 mph, even for 10 seconds.


Whoops. Typo - should've been 52:16 (or 85.4 gear inches). I ran a 52:18 for a while, but struggled to keep up on those fast flats. Man... could you imagine 34 mph with a 52:18!? 160 RPM... I'm sure someone can muster that kinda cadence for a few seconds... not me


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

OldZaskar said:


> Whoops. Typo - should've been 52:16 (or 85.4 gear inches). I ran a 52:18 for a while, but struggled to keep up on those fast flats. Man... could you imagine 34 mph with a 52:18!? 160 RPM... I'm sure someone can muster that kinda cadence for a few seconds... not me


Aha, 52:16 makes more sense. Although for me, that would still 
be too spiny at 34 mph.


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## bmwjoe (Jul 15, 2012)

I was never muck of a spinner. I was taking the basic racing course at the velodrome this summer and I was lamenting on my lack of speed at the end of a race. coming out of turn 4 I had nothing. My friend lent his converted fixed gear road race bike to help me with over speed training. It was geared at 42:18 or 60 GI. 

It was a pain to commute on for the first few weeks but I stuck with it and managed to do my commute and weekend riders for 100+ miles a week. I got to the point where I could cruise at 19-20 mph. Down hills I could spin up to 32-33 mph. (180+ rpm). This made a profound effect on my track racing. I was now able to finish strong and win some races.

I am still riding the bike and I plan on taking it on the MS City to shore ride. I have changed the gears to 52:18 for the ride. My motto: One gear, one cause.. No coasting.

Here is my video:
City to Shore pre ride thanks - YouTube

Ride Safe,

Joe


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

bmwjoe said:


> I was never muck of a spinner. I was taking the basic racing course at the velodrome this summer and I was lamenting on my lack of speed at the end of a race. coming out of turn 4 I had nothing. My friend lent his converted fixed gear road race bike to help me with over speed training. It was geared at 42:18 or 60 GI.
> 
> It was a pain to commute on for the first few weeks but I stuck with it and managed to do my commute and weekend riders for 100+ miles a week. I got to the point where I could cruise at 19-20 mph. Down hills I could spin up to 32-33 mph. (180+ rpm). This made a profound effect on my track racing. I was now able to finish strong and win some races.
> 
> ...


Very nice Joe. I did a similar ride to raise money for cancer recently. It was a complete hammer fest instead of just a ride, but for a good cause. 

As for the spinning, I tried for years to improve myself. I have about 8 years of XC racing experience (all of it on a single speed) and appreciate the need for both power and spinning ability. I even used to ride fixed for a while, but I hated it because many times I forgot I am on a fixed. Except for the climbs. I love, love climbing on a fixed bike.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Bit of a thread dredge... 

Per a few suggestions - the Klein got a makeover: 6800 crank, 6700 brakes, Mavic Ksyrium wheels, carbon seat post, light saddle... the bike's a bit lighter and a LOT stiffer. Turns out, most of the flex was the wheels and crank. Also nudged the gearing up a bit - from 52:16 to 53:15. If it's possible, I love this thing even more. I actually have to talk myself out of riding it too much - spinning that big gear in hilly Atlanta, seems to require a bit more recovery time.










But... I still really want to build a new, carbon, light, stiff single speed. All of my single speeds (mountain and road) have been converted geared bikes. I'm envisioning a carbon frameset with road (race, not commuter) geometry and track dropouts, all the requisite carbon parts...

Any suggestions for frames/manufacturers to look at?

Oh, (edit) it's worth mentioning: Gary Klein assured me I have nothing to worry about - the frame and fork will hold up for thousands more miles and decades of use. He said he approves of the "update" and even offered to sign it... if I shipped to him. Pretty damn cool.


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Sounds like you want a Calfee

http://calfeedesign.com/product/frame/


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


> I'm envisioning a carbon frameset with road (race, not commuter) geometry and track dropouts, all the requisite carbon parts...
> 
> Any suggestions for frames/manufacturers to look at?


You most likely need to go custom/big bucks for that. Or learn to like track geometry on the road.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You most likely need to go custom/big bucks for that. Or learn to like track geometry on the road.


^that^'s what I'm finding. I think my choices are likely: 
1. Repurpose a road frame and find the magic gear.
2. Be happy with the old Klein


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## KeithNorCal (Oct 10, 2016)

OldZaskar said:


> I think my choices are likely:
> 1. Repurpose a road frame and find the magic gear.
> 2. Be happy with the old Klein


I vote for both.  Glad you like your updated Klein, but wishing you a brand new custom-built SS too.


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