# Underrated / Misunderstood / Forgotten Frames



## Minjin (Jan 9, 2007)

What are some good underrated frames? I'm not talking about the stuff that everyone knows about and is looking for. I'm talking about the stuff that flew under the radar for whatever reason or people have just forgotten about. 

I want to build a bike and need some names to keep an eye out for on ebay.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

fondriest x-status, steel frame built out DEDA 16.5 tubing. Try to get a the one with the flashy blue paint and chrome fork . had one that was a couple of sizes too big. been looking for one ever since i got rid of it.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

It depends how old.... Centurion Dave Scott Iron Man frames from the late 80's great bikes and usually underpriced.... 

A few years ago, Japanese frames were undervalued...high end Miyata, Panasonic, Bridgestone, etc...
Lately they started to really climb in value but they are still below similar Italian makes of the same vintage and quality..


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

Very subjective, but I'll play! I like the Cervelo Prodigy and Renaissance steel frames, and I'm not a steel guy. Clean, modern look with nice graphics IMO. The Prodigy was completely nickel plated, then painted, with the logos being the nickel peeking out. As aluminum was King and carbon was coming on strong circa 2000, they didn't sell well. I remember Supergo blowing them out for $300 or something, and thinking I should pick one up. I didn't.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Canadian made MIELE steel frames.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Torpado. Somec.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Celo.....


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

+1 for SOMEC



Mapei said:


> Torpado. Somec.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

*Not a brand, but a genre*

CX frames are under rated. I think they would be adequate for 90% of the "mountain" biking people do on mountain bikes, and they are excellent for commuting or touring. 

Zullo the brand is way undervalued. They are as good as it gets and he can deliver a made to measure frame in a few months at most.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

cmg said:


> fondriest x-status, steel frame built out DEDA 16.5 tubing. Try to get a the one with the flashy blue paint and chrome fork . had one that was a couple of sizes too big. been looking for one ever since i got rid of it.



Had one of these, Loved it! Sadly, in a pace line, the rider in front of me did not mention a semi truck brake part that he passed within inches. I ran right over it and it kicked up and created a super dent just above the bottom bracket :mad2: Fondriest said it could not be repaired... ugh... Loved that bike....


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

What are you looking for?

Cielo would be a rare find.
Litespeed made some nice models, I've seen a few deals.
Agree that some Japanese made frames are under-rated.


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## Minjin (Jan 9, 2007)

SantaCruz said:


> What are you looking for?


Just looking for something a little more "road worthy" than what I am riding right now ( a CX bike). I don't know what I want. That's why I'm picking your brains...

I'd just look for ugly frames with the expectation that they would go cheap but some people's definition of ugly doesn't match up with mine.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

Giant MCR.

Still ahead of its time.


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

Japanese Paramounts, nobody is exactly sure but me thinks Panasonic made them. Very good frames and undervalued.


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## racerx (Jan 29, 2004)

*Agreed...*



Retro Grouch said:


> Giant MCR.
> 
> Still ahead of its time.


Cycle design was on the verge or greatness...UCI....WHY?, WHY?


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## Guymk (Mar 27, 2009)

Now thats an oversized down tube!!


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## cxl98904 (Apr 30, 2010)

rossin colombus slx, oversize bb very stiff and responsive


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

Guymk said:


> Now thats an oversized down tube!!


That's one beefy bottom bracket.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I'll cast my vote with the vintage Japanese made frames.


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Retro Grouch said:


> Giant MCR.
> 
> Still ahead of its time.


A small mid-90s production: AFH

(custom paintjobs for a gentleman in my town and his wife)


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

*I'll second these*



cs1 said:


> Japanese Paramounts, nobody is exactly sure but me thinks Panasonic made them. Very good frames and undervalued.


Japanese Paramounts? A huge letdown for the faithful. Except - they were actually very well made frames. I nabbed one on Ebay for $150 and made a townie out of it for my sister in law. Nice lugs, paint, braze-ons...


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## orbeamike (Nov 20, 2004)

perttime said:


> A small mid-90s production: AFH
> 
> (custom paintjobs for a gentleman in my town and his wife)


Cool looking frames. not so water carrying friendly.


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## Minjin (Jan 9, 2007)

orbeamike said:


> Cool looking frames. not so water carrying friendly.


Just fill the frame up with water and use a straw...


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

what happens if you decide you need to change your saddle height by half an inch?

Internal cable routing was pretty sleek.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

motobecane


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## Topher (Jun 5, 2005)

I consistently see a lot of older titanium going for great prices... particularly merlin and dean...


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## Herkwo (Nov 8, 2002)

Under the "Forgotten Frames" -- The old defunct Airborne Ti Frames (Zeppelin, Manhattan Project, Valkyrie, etc). Not to be confused w/ the new "Airborne" MTBs.


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## sonic_W (Sep 2, 2008)

Rhygin Metax. Stainless frames before their time.


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## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

That Giant and the two AFH make me wonder what bikes would look like now if cycling was driven by the standards of "New! Exciting! Product!" rather than the UCI's determination that bikes will look as close to the 1960s standards as they can enforce...

Did idly wonder that you better know your saddle height pretty accurately with the AFH though.

D


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## acg (Feb 13, 2011)

Herkwo said:


> Under the "Forgotten Frames" -- The old defunct Airborne Ti Frames (Zeppelin, Manhattan Project, Valkyrie, etc). Not to be confused w/ the new "Airborne" MTBs.


The Airborne design was resurrected by a Dutch company called Van Nicholas:

http://vannicholas.com/

The Chinese company which originally supplied the titanium frames to the old Airborne company now makes them for Van Nicholas.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*actually that bike pictured*



Sablotny said:


> Very subjective, but I'll play! I like the Cervelo Prodigy and Renaissance steel frames, and I'm not a steel guy. Clean, modern look with nice graphics IMO. The Prodigy was completely nickel plated, then painted, with the logos being the nickel peeking out. As aluminum was King and carbon was coming on strong circa 2000, they didn't sell well. I remember Supergo blowing them out for $300 or something, and thinking I should pick one up. I didn't.


were the super prodigy model
the prodigy was white w/ red cervelo on them. Great bikes, a tad cheaper, and they had slightly less nice tubing in the rear triangle
the plated ones were the Super Prodigy and some were raced by CSC in the Spring Classics
One of the last steel bikes in the Pro Peloton, there was one other, anyone remember (besides the custom steel Ballan rode @ Lampre)?


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

Sablotny said:


> what happens if you decide you need to change your saddle height by half an inch?


Nobody has explained it to me and the LBS has sold the last one...

... but the seat seems to be fixed with some sort of a bracket. If the bracket is not adjustable, you'd have to make a different one.


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## Sablotny (Aug 15, 2002)

*Maybe*



atpjunkie said:


> were the super prodigy model
> the prodigy was white w/ red cervelo on them. Great bikes, a tad cheaper, and they had slightly less nice tubing in the rear triangle
> the plated ones were the Super Prodigy and some were raced by CSC in the Spring Classics
> One of the last steel bikes in the Pro Peloton, there was one other, anyone remember (besides the custom steel Ballan rode @ Lampre)?


Here's a standard Prodigy, not Super, all nickeled up. Just finished on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...Td0%3D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


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## 3v1lD4v3 (May 11, 2009)

I've ridden a Tange 2 tubed Shogun 800 since 2000, when I picked it up for $100. I think it's '88 or '89 by the components. There is nary a word about them online.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

3v1lD4v3 said:


> I've ridden a Tange 2 tubed Shogun 800 since 2000, when I picked it up for $100. I think it's '88 or '89 by the components. There is nary a word about them online.



That bike looks about as classy as that back yard...


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## 3v1lD4v3 (May 11, 2009)

rubbersoul said:


> That bike looks about as classy as that back yard...


Can't mow if I'm out riding.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

rubbersoul said:


> That bike looks about as classy as that back yard...



Geez. Slam the guy's bike, and his home. 

Nice!


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Looks fine to me. A bike that is obviously being used is automatically cool.


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## cbk57 (Aug 12, 2009)

*Recomended Opera by Pinarello*

I have an Opera Giorgione. This is the best handling and all round frame I have ever owned. I highly recommend anything by this brand. They are incredible bikes that are rare and can be purchased without the Pinarello premium. I especially like the earlier ones that were made of mostly aluminum except for the chain stays as these were welded in Italy. The Canova which is more common is based on the Pinarello F4:13 and I don't know where those were made.


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## cbk57 (Aug 12, 2009)

*Recommended Opera by Pinarello*

I have an Opera Giorgione. This is the best handling and all round frame I have ever owned. I highly recommend anything by this brand. They are incredible bikes that are rare and can be purchased without the Pinarello premium. I especially like the earlier ones that were made of mostly aluminum except for the chain stays as these were welded in Italy. The Canova which is more common is based on the Pinarello F4:13 and I don't know where those were made.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

rubbersoul said:


> That bike looks about as classy as that back yard...


Did you forget the smiley winky thingy? Otherwise, you are one harsh, mean, craggy old fart.


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## Keski (Sep 25, 2004)

Slingshot Bikes........


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I think that alot of older steel bikes have been forgotten in the quest for Lightness. I now have two steel frames, one is 25 years old (refurbished) and the other is 5-6 years old and they ride fantastic. No they are not light, at 21 lbs for a 60 and 22lbs for a 62 cm frame they ride out of this world. 

Alot of Kliens were really nice also, plus the paint of the nice ones was fantastic. 

Bill


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

crossracer said:


> I think that alot of older steel bikes have been forgotten in the quest for Lightness. I now have two steel frames, one is 25 years old (refurbished) and the other is 5-6 years old and they ride fantastic. No they are not light, at 21 lbs for a 60 and 22lbs for a 62 cm frame they ride out of this world.


At that weight, it's not a heavy frame, it's the components that make it 21 to 22 pounds..

There are many nice steel frames out there that sell for a reasonable price. My 10 year old steel framed (Ritchey) bike came in at just under 17 pounds (58 cm). The frame cost me about $250 on eBay several years ago. I recently replaced it with a different steel frame (Carl Strong) that's only about 6 years old - it still weights about the same (lighter frame now, but slightly heavier and nicer riding fork).

If you want a steel frame, watch for used frames or bikes (that fit you) on eBay and you can find deals fairly often.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Japanese sourced Bianchis--especially the Professional. The true Italio-philes don't like them much, but they are well made Ishiwata tubed bikes.

RBR thread here

I've got one waiting for me, if I ever get back to my mom's to pick it up.

I think there are a lot of 80s steel frames out there that the wool jersey guys dismiss since they are not from the "classic era" that are good value for money--like my filet-brazed Simonetti. Tange tubing (early'90s), and classic Italian geometry, brazed by Mike Howard (ex-Masi), who Brian Baylis says is a good crafstman. Paid less than $200 and I like it a lot!

Before they were Simonetti they were Medici (mostly lugged), and I have seen several of these sell on the 'Bay for around $500


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

The old steel Windsor frames from the 70s and such can be really nice and economical frames.


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## Lotophage (Feb 19, 2011)

Older steel serottas can be seriously undervalued.


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## kaliayev (Dec 25, 2008)

1999 Santana Stylus. Experimental limited single frame of Easton SC7000. Built here with pretty standard parts it comes in at 15.3 lbs.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

3v1lD4v3 said:


> I've ridden a Tange 2 tubed Shogun 800 since 2000, when I picked it up for $100. I think it's '88 or '89 by the components. There is nary a word about them online.


very nice......and in beautiful shape


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## Nathan (Jul 7, 2006)

Surly pacer


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

sonic_W said:


> Rhygin Metax. Stainless frames before their time.


Glad to see someone beat me to it. I lusted after a Rhygin in the mid 90's and would still love one.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

Yet another rare specimen:









BeYOND Be401 Beryllium MMC Road


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Sablotny said:


> Very subjective, but I'll play! I like the Cervelo Prodigy and Renaissance steel frames, and I'm not a steel guy. Clean, modern look with nice graphics IMO. The Prodigy was completely nickel plated, then painted, with the logos being the nickel peeking out. As aluminum was King and carbon was coming on strong circa 2000, they didn't sell well. I remember Supergo blowing them out for $300 or something, and thinking I should pick one up. I didn't.


I've always loved that frame. I remember the Supergo sale but they were sold out on my size. My LBS had one my size hanging from the ceiling around that same time but they wanted something like $700. So I passed. And have regretted it ever since. :cryin:


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## seanharvey (Jul 8, 2011)

Not old by any means but definitely under appreciated...Leader Bike.

I picked up an LD-736r back around 05 and will have to say it's hands down one of the best frames I've been on...for 300 bucks, it's better than some higher end frames. Super stiff, fast and twitchy....a little weight on the inside drops and you're in and out of the corner in no time. And, it looks cool...at least I think it does.


http://www.leaderbikeusa.com/products/frames/frames.htm


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

Yeah, I have a 796R Leader (the full carbon frame) and love it. It's too bad Leader went all fixie/track.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> It depends how old.... Centurion Dave Scott Iron Man frames from the late 80's great bikes and usually underpriced....
> 
> A few years ago, Japanese frames were undervalued...high end Miyata, Panasonic, Bridgestone, etc...
> Lately they started to really climb in value but they are still below similar Italian makes of the same vintage and quality..


+1..... Bought a Centurion Dave Scott Iron Man brand new with those crazy Gen 1 Dave Scott aerobars and Shimano PD7400 pedals. I saved up for a year (when I was in high school) to get that one after seeing a commercial on TV for it. Mine was the Expert Edition (pink and yellow color scheme... don't ask) that was fully Shimano 105 down to the BioPace cranks, brakes and hubs. There was a Masters model that was full Shimano 600. They had the high end Tange frameset and they were pleasure to ride. In fact, all of the other Japanese bikes I've owned (Bridgestone 400, Nishiki International, Nishiki Prestige and Univega Vivasport) were all great bikes that are definitely undervalued. The frame construction on those bikes were top notch and the ride was incredible.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Does anyone remember Medici or Olmo?


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## bigreen505 (Jun 10, 2007)

I had a Sampson Silverton that I never should have sold. The bike did everything I asked of it.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Anything made by Gary Klein, in Washington


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## prefect80 (Jul 25, 2011)

racerx said:


> Cycle design was on the verge or greatness...UCI....WHY?, WHY?


Money. Don't want to upset the traditional bike companies. These things were beautiful in my eyes and I enjoy classical geometry.

I am a firm beleiver in steel and beleive the carbon is one of the worst things to happen to cycling. Like big special effects in big budget movies, carbon became the fixture of making a good bicycle. Geometry and feel became a side product. Most carbon frames I have ridden are inferior to a top notch steel frame and cost several times more. On top of that, counter to the myth a good steel frame can be light. The best bike I have is a Colnago Tecnos that I picked up cheap in the early 2000s while everyone was jumping on the carbon bandwagon. I got the bike off of ebay with near mint dura ace for $1,145 US. I have picked up other bikes since but I also end up thinking "why am I riding this when I have a colnago in the garage?". I was in college when I got the bike. I sometime I wish I had a time machine so I could go back in buy a buttload of cheap quality steel frames. It saddens me that most people have no clue what a good steel frame is like. Quality steel is real.


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

Dave Hickey said:


> It depends how old.... Centurion Dave Scott Iron Man frames from the late 80's great bikes and usually underpriced....
> 
> A few years ago, Japanese frames were undervalued...high end Miyata, Panasonic, Bridgestone, etc...
> Lately they started to really climb in value but they are still below similar Italian makes of the same vintage and quality..


I had a Miyata when I was 15, it got stolen out of my garage


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

Scapin and Fondriest are two that immediately come to mind. And then there's one you probably never heard of - Bellesi.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Two road bikes I had in the past might fit in this category.

First, a Litespeed aluminum. Mine was the Antares as I recall, compact geometry with carbon seat stays. For me, this was full out racing bike--stiff, light, fit me well, and it wasn't so expensive that I'd cry if I crashed in a local crit. Sold it after I stopped racing.










Second, Lemond steel. I had a Buenos Aires. I thought Lemonds were really attractive frames. Unfortunately the slack seat tube angle didn't work too well for me (wish I had known that when I bought it). I sold it eventually.


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## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

llama31 said:


> Two road bikes I had in the past might fit in this category.
> 
> First, a Litespeed aluminum. Mine was the Antares as I recall, compact geometry with carbon seat stays. For me, this was full out racing bike--stiff, light, fit me well, and it wasn't so expensive that I'd cry if I crashed in a local crit. Sold it after I stopped racing.
> 
> ...


I had that Litespeed too!!!! Damn, that thing was STIFF. But had a lot of fun on it. And good paint jobs on all of them, until they chipped, then.....


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Had a Ron Cooper I should have hung on to.


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## pandoro (Jul 19, 2011)

bici stupende!!!


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## Flip D (Jul 6, 2004)

Retro Grouch said:


> Yet another rare specimen:
> 
> 
> BeYOND Be401 Beryllium MMC Road


Is that the $100,000 frame?


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Says DM 5995, so more like $4200


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## windmic (Jun 11, 2007)

I had a beautiful Mino Denti with these custom clamshell ridge lugs. Unbelievable bike. I have not seen one with the same lugs and look since. Also rode as good as you can imagine down a twisty road.


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## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

I had a Jim Bundy frame (Australian guy). It was beautiful and I wish I still had it. 
I also went to the little village in Italy near Genoa where Olmo frames come from. they were beautiful things too.


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## takl23 (Jul 22, 2007)

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but my current ride is a Salsa Campeon. It handles like a sports car and I can take it on long rides and still be comfortable.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*my guess is Andy*



Dereck said:


> That Giant and the two AFH make me wonder what bikes would look like now if cycling was driven by the standards of "New! Exciting! Product!" rather than the UCI's determination that bikes will look as close to the 1960s standards as they can enforce...
> 
> Did idly wonder that you better know your saddle height pretty accurately with the AFH though.
> 
> D


bikes would be uglier than they are now


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## perttime (Jun 27, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> bikes would be uglier than they are now


Dunno.... I think most of the current top TT bikes look seriously ugly to me.


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

*Little know, under appreciated*

Any steel bike from F. Moser. Seems like people don't know the brand exists, nor how fine a ride how fine ride they provide.


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## johnnyletrois (Jul 17, 2011)

Camilo said:


> The old steel Windsor frames from the 70s and such can be really nice and economical frames.


~1974 Windsor Profesional Mexinelli my dad bought new. Full Dura Ace and Crane RD.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Moser said in a Cycling interview his builder was Brandasi, but I have never seen a Brandasi frame.
I might get a Moser someday, they are as nice as any other frame. And I want some panto stuff, there isn't much of that for Cinellis. Moser stuff comes up now and then.


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## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

Lygie.
I had one in high school. Italian, beautiful paint, chrome lugs, chrome chain stays, rare. 

Mine was very touring oriented with a soft fork and bar end shifters but I'm sure they made more aggressive models.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Retro Grouch said:


> Giant MCR.
> 
> Still ahead of its time.



Aerodynamically, probably yes. But, it looks like a diseased kidney.
.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SystemShock said:


> Aerodynamically, probably yes. But, it looks like a diseased kidney.
> .


The guy in charge of making the mold was drinking vodka tonics at work...except he ran out of tonic water and used vodka in its place.


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## Bridgestone (Sep 6, 2007)

Kestrel 200SC, Miyata 1400 a true unknown gem


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