# ***** wins MSR by way of blatant cheating



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Riders accuse Demare of taking a tow from a team car during Milan-San Remo | Cyclingnews.com

Numerous eye witness accounts and reports.

Obvious questionable happenings.

No review of transponders.

No review of bike computers.

No action taken.


So this tells me that without that video last year they never would have even penalized Nibali for being towed by his team car.

This piece of trash takes a car tow up a climb to get to a sprint finish with fresh legs.... at MSR.... where the point is that nobody has fresh legs left at the end... Really blatant cheating here. Really obvious too.


Who was Demare in that crash with? Who remounted at the same time? Where were those guys at the end? He's just that much better than Matthews and company right now right?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

This part of that article stings: _According to reports race judge Herve Borcque was notified of the allegations but with no video or photographic proof, the matter was taken no further._


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Exactly my point about Nibali. Without that video being plastered everywhere they probably would have done nothing.

Things like this piss me off the most. So motors you can use for a little bit to get up a climb are an immediate lifetime ban or whatever right? But you can do EXACTLY THE SAME THING holding on to a team car and they just let it go?

So the camera crews gave the crash victims zero chance. They never bothered trying to follow them back to the bunch, it was never going to happen. It wasn't physically possible to make it back to the lead. And because there wasn't cameras behind the group anything goes?

So if there isn't a helicopter or camera moto you can team car it up climbs? And they're really going to do nothing about it? Even if you get toed back up to a sprint finish and win? At ****ing MSR?


**** the UCI... really... they can eat dicks.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

Seems like it would be pretty easy to grab his computer and look at his files for that stretch of racing? Or am I missing something?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

You're not missing anything.

How corrupt is it to have a "race judge" being the sole person in control of this sort of thing? What is his fee to be quiet?


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

demare posted his strave file. you can compare his pace directly against visconti's on the cipressa. yes, he got KOM, but i don't know what that means in the least wrt to this controversy.

https://www.strava.com/segments/626918/compare/MTI1NTAxMzM3MzUsMTI1MjYwNzEzNzI=


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Demare's Milan-San Remo data file deleted from Strava | Cyclingnews.com

Demare hits back at Milan-San Remo tow allegations | Cyclingnews.com


The flyby and data is pretty damning.

He admits he was behind the team car getting shelter from the wind but says he wasn't being towed.

The team car driver admits he was with him up the climb and that he did have him aside handing him a bidon but that it wasn't a sticky one.

They both are blaming Bling Matthews for "doing the same thing" whatever that is.

In the back stage pass from OGE you can tell that FDJ are full of it, just watch it.

The team car says the 80 kph isn't possible, that the cars weren't driving that fast. This is the key right here. He's right. 

They claim if these allegations keep up they'll just release the power data.
So... we're waiting... the flybys and other data look really bad.


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2004)

So I know the race was yesterday but I was going to DVR the replay tomorrow on bein sports. Please consider not putting the winner's name in any future post's title. I know you posted down in a racing forum but it does show in an "unread posts" view many use. It's all good, just a request.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

I did kind of raise an eyebrow....I have to really scratch my head to think of FDJ wins at all in the last several years....and suddenly there are 2 back to back?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

MisterMike said:


> So I know the race was yesterday but I was going to DVR the replay tomorrow on bein sports. Please consider not putting the winner's name in any future post's title. I know you posted down in a racing forum but it does show in an "unread posts" view many use. It's all good, just a request.


Will do my best.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Marc said:


> I did kind of raise an eyebrow....I have to really scratch my head to think of FDJ wins at all in the last several years....and suddenly there are 2 back to back?


Well, the French have always ridden clean, and now the rest are too.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> They both are blaming Bling Matthews for "doing the same thing" whatever that is.


Michael Matthews did make it back so did Peter Kennaugh, so if he didn't cheat it was clearly possible for Demare to make it back to the bunch.



> The team car says the 80 kph isn't possible, that the cars weren't driving that fast. This is the key right here. He's right.


They quoted one rider from the peloton claiming the 80kph figure and this has been widely discredited. If anything it shows how bad humans are as an estimator of speed. My room mate thought people in track racing were doing laps at 130kph. I don't think it's possible to drive up the Cipressa at that speed while someone is hanging onto your bike and the Strava data that you claim "proves" he was cheating doesn't even show 80kph.

I'm not saying he didn't cheat, but jumping on this bandwagon of BS isn't going to help the he cheated argument. He should definitely release his power file but that can easily be doctored after the fact. So if he indeed cheat and they cover this one up properly there's nothing we can do. On the other side of the coin, people know this and he will never be able to silence the deniers.

Another point, I think this points to how people believe in Strava way too much. They point out he took the KOM and pretend that makes him faster than the climbers. Andre Greipel is 6th on the segment, and that's when he got dropped (2015). Demare averaged .8kph faster than him, which is certainly plausible. Even the commentators were talking about how no one was really driving the pace super hard (Katusha was setting a lot of tempo so Kristoff could get over it). Kwiat attacked towards the top which explains his higher up position. Gerald Ciolek held the previous KOM from 2015 and that guy is also a sprinter.

https://vimeo.com/159805601

But hey, lets ignore facts and realities to try to come to a realistic conclusion and believe some crap about someone riding 80kph holding onto a car .


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

His DS has a point. How would they tow him up the climb when all the vehicles are bumper-to-bumper in a caravan heading up the climb?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

The point is that they didn't tow him at 80 kph. 

My point is that they might have towed him at exactly how fast they were going, about half that.

The DS isn't helping anything.
The DS admitted he was riding right beside the car going up the hill.
He says he wasn't though, he says he was behind it drafting.
The Strava flyby is very damning, showing him fly right by others as they said he did.
The DS says the Strava data is corrupted/false and that he never went the speeds he did. I think Strava says he topped out at 54 kph at the top.
Kwitko tried to back him up saying he pulled 52 kph at the top.
The DS though says it's all false, that he has the real data and that AD never even hit 50 kph, that he was always under 50.
Comparing Strava data and times he would have had to hold about 500 watts for about 10 full minutes to achieve what he did. And then do another climb before the end.

There's several people out there who have put this all together and have very convincing arguments. He's dead in the water if you ask me. Only way to prove otherwise is to release power data. And as Harley notes, that can be doctored as well as shown by JP.

So is Strava lying? Is the DS then telling the truth? I doubt it.

And the DS is already saying that the real data and that from Strava don't match. So even if it did get released the chances of being doctored are sky high due to these preemptive comments.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> So is Strava lying? Is the DS then telling the truth? I doubt it.


Lying implies Strava is a sentient being intentionally deceiving someone or someone that works at Strava is lying. I prefer the term "inaccurate". If he wasn't using a speed sensor (and even soemtimes with one) it's very very plausible that the speed is incorrect.

Where are you getting this 500W figure from? Visconti's data (3s behind) shows 401W. Ciolek from 2015 shows 424W and that was in a break of 3 riders. If Demare was drafting the car (just a reminder that this is legal) he could have outputted less w/kg than Visconti.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> Where are you getting this 500W figure from? Visconti's data (3s behind) shows 401W. Ciolek from 2015 shows 424W and that was in a break of 3 riders. If Demare was drafting the car (just a reminder that this is legal) he could have outputted less w/kg than Visconti.





andriusj7 said:


> Look at that Cipresa KOM short segment,. he did 2.33, which is 7s faster than Visconti who is a climber and went on attack full gas. So unlikely Demare did that climb on his own, and he is a sprinter.
> 
> ...it wasnt steep, but that was after a crash and + 260km in a saddle. However, he also got a KOM on the longer 10min segment (5.6km Cipressa) for the same climb, where Visconti had 400w and Visconti is 62kg, so for Damare it would have been over 500w for 10min, which I doubt he could do. Maybe it was just drafting behind a team car as he claimed.


Well I guess the sticking point is the drafting the car thing. As noted before, given his performance on the next climb and at the finish, the results of this climb in question are, well questionable.

He admits to drafting the team car up the climb.

I guess that's really the end of it. The data points to him going up with assistance. But if the assistance is legal, as in he was just drafting the cars while other riders chose not to... well... that's that then really. As long as it's legal to draft cars up climbs he has a solid case and he should just tell his DS to shut up. 

Just a thought though... motor pacing isn't legal on Strava and he admits to doing it. So technically his ride should be flagged. Right?

Edit: After a rule checkup there's a little grey area. Surprise, surprise. After a crash riders are allowed to draft cars to move back up to the group. However they are mandated to move from car to car, moving up the pack, not staying behind one car. This is written pretty clear. The sticky bottle thing... well they're allowed a count to three and most likely he obeyed that we'll just say.

The only grey area is the one car drafting thing. Going up a climb with a bunch of cars, well you're not going to just be passing them. And that's really a minor part of a rule.

I would have liked the race judge to come right out with this instead of nothing: Riders are allowed to draft team cars and move back to the pack after a crash. We're unsure if riders moved up the pack of cars or stayed behind single ones on the climb, there is no footage of that. Therefore we cannot take any action.

Boom, that would end it. Power data? For what? Who cares. He and others as he says were drafting team cars up and it's legal. Or mostly legal. Legal enough. It's allowed, that's where we'll put it. Debate what? Strava shows him easily passing others on the climb and setting a record pace. Of course, he was motor pacing. There is no debate. Well I guess the only debate is motor pace vs. sticky bottle. But if you're moving the same speed either way who cares? Posting the strava data and claiming the KOMs and then openly in interviews admitting to have motorpaced them is kind of scummy but who cares about that too?


I was under the impression you couldn't draft cars up climbs/mountains. But having crashed right at the base and no proof if anyone moved up through the cars or not on the climb makes the rules bend their way. Doesn't seem right to me but there's no way to prove it wrong. Did he cheat? Maybe a little, but no more than anyone would be expected to in his position. Not a Nibali cheat, that was a caught red handed too long sticky bottle case. Who doesn't draft cars after a crash right?


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

i was under the impression that drafting one's own team car is accepted (if not legal) after a crash and/or mechanical to get back on. however it is NOT legal if used to gain an advantage otherwise. 

looking at the video, he caught the group in the last 2KM of the cipressa, so i guess that would be the highest power output.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MisterMike said:


> So I know the race was yesterday but I was going to DVR the replay tomorrow on bein sports. Please consider not putting the winner's name in any future post's title. I know you posted down in a racing forum but it does show in an "unread posts" view many use. It's all good, just a request.


i just watched my DVRd MSR. I stayed away from this sub forum... This is exciting stuff. People want and should be posting reactions to races! Spoiler alert nofificarions may be good form, but it is ultimately your responsibility to stay clear until you watch it. Just IMO. And not meaning to be snarky, really. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people that have watched a race not to want to talk about it. If you watch it after the fact then come join in then. That's what I am doing. I think the burden of caution lies far more with the reader than the poster. Especially if you are a day or even days behind real time.


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## L_Johnny (Jul 15, 2006)

Well, it depends on the way you read the forums. I opened the forum today on Tapatalk and bam... no escaping the spoiler. Unfortunately the only TV broadcast was this morning. Probably in the future it is a good idea not to put the spoiler in the title. Although Tapatalk shows the first few lines of the posts, so probably I'd would have seen it anyway.
What I should do is totally stay away from cycling forums/news until I watch the event. 



PBL450 said:


> i just watched my DVRd MSR. I stayed away from this sub forum... This is exciting stuff. People want and should be posting reactions to races! Spoiler alert nofificarions may be good form, but it is ultimately your responsibility to stay clear until you watch it. Just IMO. And not meaning to be snarky, really. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people that have watched a race not to want to talk about it. If you watch it after the fact then come join in then. That's what I am doing. I think the burden of caution lies far more with the reader than the poster. Especially if you are a day or even days behind real time.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

So flag his Strava ride


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm over it.

Learned how not to post a spoiler though, that's worthy.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

It's happened before. Any old-timers remember the controversy when Jan Raas took multiple tows from teammates up the Cauberg to win the World's in '79? Lots of riders reported it but no penalties.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

These threads do allow spoilers. It is indeed each members responsibility to see or read about the race themselves before coming on these forums. I try to add a Spoiler Alert in thread titles right after or during a race, but there is no obligation to do so and I don't expect others to do the same.


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## superg (May 9, 2010)

So how did this story start after all ? Italian riders arguably ticked off by a frenchman winning the biggest one-day race in Italy ? Because everybody knows Italians are by no means given to exaggerating ...and that's why everybody loves them.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

LostViking said:


> These threads do allow spoilers. It is indeed each members responsibility to see or read about the race themselves before coming on these forums. I try to add a Spoiler Alert in thread titles right after or during a race, but there is no obligation to do so and I don't expect others to do the same.


This thread was initially titled "Demare wins...." which means by simply seeing the title you got the spoiler. These types of titles are not allowed.


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2004)

deviousalex said:


> This thread was initially titled "Demare wins...." which means by simply seeing the title you got the spoiler. These types of titles are not allowed.


Yep it sure did. And it was promptly edited by MMsRepBike once I asked. I don't believe MMsRepBike had any intention of ruining anyone's day at all and I usually find his (assuming he, sorry if wrong) posts to be informative. So I chalk it up to an honest oversight. Yeah, it's your own risk to come to the site if you still have not watched a race you care about. All I was asking is no spoilers in titles. Let's get back to the MSR part of the OP


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

MisterMike said:


> Yep it sure did. And it was promptly edited by MMsRepBike once I asked. I don't believe MMsRepBike had any intention of ruining anyone's day at all and I usually find his (assuming he, sorry if wrong) posts to be informative. So I chalk it up to an honest oversight. Yeah, it's your own risk to come to the site if you still have not watched a race you care about. All I was asking is no spoilers in titles. Let's get back to the MSR part of the OP


02-18-2010 #1
Coolhand:
" The Official Word on Race Spoilers -- Doping Posts/Threads go in the Doping Forum
Please do not put them in the title until the event is shown on TV. This includes the winner/losers name a something like "Cadel Evans OMG!! (spoilers)" that's still a spoiler. 
Just use the event title and call it a discussion thread-- so "Giro stage 6 discussion thread".

After the event is shown in the evening, title your threads however you want.

And don't attack/harass anyone who gets it wrong. Unless someone is intentionally being a jerk about it, this is not a posting vacation offense."

In other words, once it has been televised there is no such thing as a spoiler - it is considered common knowledge. If you have to wait for days after others have seen it before you see it - tough! Avoid forums like this until you have seen it. It is not reasonable to expect this whole community to take a vow of silence until you get around to seeing it.

That said, use the words "Spoiler Alert" or just the race name/stage number as a courtesy, this is what I do and I've yet to hear any whining about it.


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