# building a "do it all bike" around a steel frame



## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

Hey everyone,

In my continuing quest for a do it all road/trail/commuter bike, I am beginning to feel like I'd prefer steel over aluminum. The reason is just because I haven't been to excited about any of the aluminum bikes I have tried... kona jake the snake, cannondale caadx105, felt f75x... Don't get me wrong, they were all nice bikes but they just didn't "feel" as nice. They were light, they were quick, they had good components, but just didn't feel as good as I would think they should for the price. I am new to the world of road/cross bikes (have always ridden a MTB with some suspension), so maybe my expectations are just set too high. For fun, I tried a few carbons and they felt great, but are totally impractical for my purposes, meaning I have no intentions of racing, and I want a bike that can take a bit of beating and last (I'm not saying carbon is fragile, just not practical for me)

So that leads me to Steel. But the issue is they are obviously heavier... at least the ones I have tried... cross check, salsa casseroll and vaya, I thought the vaya handled well and had a very nice ride, but I did not like the weight of it. The casseroll felt like i was driving an old cadillac. Maybe I'm incorrect in my thinking, but occasionally I would like to really fly on the road with my new purchase, and I feel like a heavier steel bike will hinder me in some way...

So I'm looking for a lighter, lively steel bike. I weigh 165-170lbs if that matters in your opinion. Being a hands-on DIYer, I feel like it would be a lot of fun to build up a bike. I already have most of the tools. I've come across soma double cross, gunnar cross hair, and a couple other custom steel builders. I also came across the habanero Ti 'cross... which to me looks really good. But is the quality really all that? 

So again, (and I say again because I'm sure some of you may have seen my posts and when reading this are probably saying, "not this guy again  " but I ask for you help in choosing a frame, and recommending components to fit the frame. I'd love a frame that is somewhat light (i understand I can't achieve aluminum or carbon light), lively, comfortable for extended distances (probably up to 100 miles), has fender and rack mounts, and can be quick on the gravel trails and road when I want it to be. I'll save the single track for the mtb. I'd be happy with sram apex or shimano 105, but I would like some nice(er) wheels that say whats on the caadx105 or kona jts. Picking up used components wouldn't bother me either. I don't know much about which bottom bracket fits which bike and what components will work together, but we can work on that once the frame is chosen  

I know I'm way past my original budget of $1500 (unless someone knows something I don't), so if the bike is going to last going up a little over $2k isn't much that big of a deal if I'll be truly happy with it. Biking is one of my favorite hobbies, so I've decided I don't mind sinking a little more money in it. 

Thanks for reading this long drawn out post, and I hope you offer your advice, because the weather is getting warm, and I'm driving myself crazy over this decision and want to get out there and ride!


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## SSRider (Sep 25, 2007)

i say go for gunnar! i have a roadie and currently building up a crosshairs. my roadie is kinda light at 17lbs complete and i can probably get my crosshairs to be around 18-19. great quality for the price.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

ssrider, can you describe your build around the crosshairs?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

All City makes a great steel hybrid bike called the Macho Man. Part cross bike, part commuter bike. And fairly inexpensive.
All-City Cycles Macho Man


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## SSRider (Sep 25, 2007)

sram rival group, deda cockpit, paul canti brakes, hed c2/white industries wheelset. not high end by any means but rock solid stuff.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

Jamis makes nice steel road bikes.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

Nightfend - have you had experience with that bike? Do you know the cost and weight?

ssrider - what did your build kit cost you?

Girchy - I'll check them out, thanks.

It seems by the replies that the habenaro Ti cross frame isn't the way to go? 

Lets say I went with (just for the purpose of example) a Gunnar Crosshairs. Where would I start with choosing my build components? Is it possible to build a gunnar for around $2k? (or less)?


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## smcnees (Aug 5, 2008)

Ritchey Breakaway CX Steel if you're looking to truly define DO IT ALL. :thumbsup:


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## SSRider (Sep 25, 2007)

let's see...

used crosshairs frame/fork - $400
used rival group - $500
new brakes - $140
new cockpit - $150
new wheels - $700
total - $1890


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

wow, that's great that you found a used crosshairs and rival group. Is there a place I should be looking besides ebay and craigs?


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

If cost is a major concern have you considered a used frame? There are great deals to be had (with a bit of searching) on used frames that would likely fit the bill.

Also, steel and aluminum can both be built into light or heavy frames. Just because a frame is built from aluminum does not mean that it will be light - aluminum is often used because it's inexpensive. There are plenty of heavy aluminum frames on the market (most entry level aluminum frames are pretty heavy).

A high-quality steel frame can be in the 1500-1800 gram range (that's under 4 pounds). When you're talking about a bike that will weight 18-20 pounds (or maybe more) you can save a lot more weight on components than you can on a frame. Find a frame that rides really well regardless of weight (so what it's it's 3 oz. heavier than another frame), and build from there.

If you look at used frames, you can buy a high-end steel frame for the same amount of money that you'll spend on an "average" new frame.


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## Herbie (Nov 12, 2010)

i have the casseroll. I agree with your discription, but it does not slow me down. I have 3 loops that I ride quite often. I finish about the same time regardless of of bike. My bikes range from a dura ace tarmac to the salsa. the tarmac is fun to ride with a group, but it's not what i would want to take on a long brevet. everything has a place. to have a bike that does everything you are going to have to make some compromises

Go with something you enjoy riding. if you don't like how a bike handles go with something else. just don't go with something because someone else likes it. You might want to consider a surly pacer or something along that line as well.


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## Paul1PA (Sep 16, 2006)

Hey Zeppman, a few years ago I had the exact same plan as you. Below is a pic and specs of the bike I ended up with. Like you, this was also my first "frame up" custom build. It was a lot of fun to handpick the components and assemble. Plus, I now have the confidence to fix anything myself. BTW, I'm a clyde riding in a mountainous area so the disc brakes and MTB rear cassette work great!

Sadly, LeMond bikes are now history but nice Poprad framesets do show up periodically on eBay and CL. Highly recommended since it has lively handling without being twitchy. Very comfortable on rough roads as well. Not sure if you would call the frame light, but typical for a high-end steel frame in a 'L' size. 

Good luck and hope my project gives you some ideas! :thumbsup:

-Paul


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## david.dean (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm looking for a very similar bike. I've taken a long look at the Gunnar Roadie, and I'm close to finally putting in an order. 

In addition to a do-it-all bike, I'm also thinking about adding S&S Couplers and turning it into a travel bike as well. Anyone here ever coupled a Gunnar Roadie?


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

Guys, again, thanks for the replies. The issue is I do not have access to any of these "nicer" steel frames. I'm not sure if they are nicer, but what I'm getting at is that in my area there is only the treck, spec, and QBP bikes to try. Some stores do sell the Gunnar and other brands that slip my mind at the moment, but you still have to purchase or at least put a deposit down on the bike before trying it. 

I understand that at the frame price point I am looking at, weight savings won't be much. That's why I stated I wanted a decent set of wheels, because I heard rolling weight effects the feel more than weight of the frame. I also understand that when going for versatility, I will have to make compromises. I know I will never be as fast as the roadies on there carbon/ti bikes, and that is fine. I was just hoping to get a "quicker" feeling frame than say the cross check. It seem that Herbie finds a heavier frame doesn't slow him down much though... 

As a cost saver, I was looking at the soma cross. But again, I have no way to know how this bike will ride (or even the gunnar) until I purchase it. And this is why I'm asking the internet for help


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## SSRider (Sep 25, 2007)

zeppman - i scoured ebay and cl for weeks before finding the crosshairs frame. the other stuff wasn't too hard to find though.

you can also use this site to search for stuff:
bikes site mash : combined site search


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## david.dean (Mar 27, 2011)

What about an older, used bike? There's tons of bikes from the 70's and 80's floating around, some in good condition. I don't personally have experience with them, but they're made of steel and seem relatively versatile. I'm sure some of them are even fast.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

zeppman said:


> I know I will never be as fast as the roadies on there carbon/ti bikes, and that is fine. I was just hoping to get a "quicker" feeling frame than say the cross check.


The weight of the frame will not determine if you can keep up wit the "roadies on there carbon/ti bikes." Your leg strength and tire choice will determine that. If you run road tires a "do it all" bike can easily keep pace with other bikes - the difference in frame weight will likely be less than a full water bottle.

The "quicker" feeling will come primarily from a combination of head tube angle and fork offset. Knowing how to read a geometry chart helps, but ultimately you'll need to ride the bike. Most "race oriented" CX frames should give you a fairly quick bike. CX bikes that are aimed more to the commuting and/or touring crowd will tend to handle slower.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

Thank you all for the replies. I'm afraid this post has only given me more options and ideas... I was trying to narrow the list!

So what would you all do in my position? I find it difficult to make a decision because I simply can not try all these bikes, unless I were to purchase them. Bottom line I want a good, fun, quick, comfortable ride that will last, and can take a rack. I should be buying two bikes (or 3!) but that just isn't feasible.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

Well if you want a fast steel bike that can hold light loads, and not so much a cross bike, then actually the All-City Space Horse might be a better bike. They run about $1300 fully built up, but the frames themselves run about $600.

Here is a retailer that has some:
All-City Space Horse Complete Bike Orange in Tree Fort Bikes Touring (cat45)


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

nightfend, that looks nice! Any idea what the weight is? 

I should specify too (as you reminded me). My load on the rack would never exceed 15 lbs. I'd be carrying a lap top, sack lunch, and a change of clothes.


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## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

Go on... blow your budget out the water. talk to Eric at Winter Bicycles.

| For all the seasons of your cycling

I saw his bikes at the Seattle expo last week. Gorgeous. Plus he specializes in do-it-all bikes.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

I would guess the bike is at least 22 to 24lbs with the lower spec parts. But I'm not really sure.


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## esldude (Jan 3, 2009)

Some have suggested a Gunnar Roadie. It is a fine bike, but not quite what the OP has in mind. It won't take a rack nor tires bigger than 26 mm. The Gunnar Crosshairs or possibly Gunnar Sport is more like what the OP describes. Since trails are mentioned the Crosshairs is more what he is describing. The Crosshairs will mount racks and fenders as well as using larger tires. As someone mentioned it can be built a bit below or right at 20 lbs. Now unless he can get a used frame it or even complete used bike it may push the budget out of whack.


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## harrypy (Dec 30, 2011)

I got a Fantom Cross Team Titanium from bikesdirect.com as a do all bike and it rides great. I converted to disc and put on vitoria randeneur 32 tires for winter commuting in Seattle. Was riding in driving rain today no prob. With some Conti GP 4 season 25s it rides close to like my road bike with those tires. The Ti frame rides very nicely on rough roads. Just one example of what might be considered a good compromise for do all.


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## laxpatrick (Jan 22, 2012)

+1 for the Gunnar sport. Mine is designed around long cranks and my height 6'8".


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

For those of you with the Gunnar frames, were you fitted for the frame, or did you just call them and order a size that you thought would work?

I thought about the Ti cross bikes at BD, but they are all sold out of my size. 

Am I wrong in thinking that I shouldn't even be looking at aluminum? I'm just worried that an aluminum bike will beat the hell out of me on longer rides.


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## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

I would rather ride an Aluminum frame with wider tires than a steel or carbon bike with <25mm tires.

28mm tires at lower pressures can really give a smooth ride.



zeppman said:


> For those of you with the Gunnar frames, were you fitted for the frame, or did you just call them and order a size that you thought would work?
> 
> I thought about the Ti cross bikes at BD, but they are all sold out of my size.
> 
> Am I wrong in thinking that I shouldn't even be looking at aluminum? I'm just worried that an aluminum bike will beat the hell out of me on longer rides.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

196- can you explain your reasoning? I'm not trying to disagree with you, i just want to hear why you feel that way.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

A nice aluminum frame will ride nicely. A cheap aluminum frame can ride poorly (but so can a cheap steel frame).

The tire size, air pressure, wheels, and fork all have at least as much (and likely more) impact on the quality of ride than the frame's material.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

laffeaux... could you recommend some nice aluminum frames, just so i have other options to look out for?


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

There are fewer aluminum choices for a "do it all frame." It's less "trendy" for that style of bike - but that's not to say that there are no bikes out there.

I own a Gios aluminum frame and it rides great - I've done 200 miles in a day on it. A friend of mine has a Cannondale CAAD10 and loves how it rides (he said that he preferred it to his carbon frame). Both frames are likely more race oriented than what you're after though. I'm sure others have examples of other aluminum frames that ride well. If you find an aluminum frame that fits your needs I'd not avoid it due to the material.

I'm hesitant to recommend specific brands, because what fits one person well may not fit another. Two people can ride the same bike and one will love it and one will thing that it's just "okay." How a bike fits and what each person values in a frame varies a lot.

IMO, when you're picking a first bike there's no way for you to know what you'll like. Buy it and either you'll like it and ride it forever, or you'll find out what you don't like and replace it with a frame that works better for you. No one on the internet will know how a bike fits you. A local shop can guide you through fit and features better, but you do have limited choices in frames.

As long as you get the correct size frame you'll likely be okay on most bikes (unless your body is outside of "normal" parameters). The difference between different bikes is often subtle (but not always so) and may not be noticeable to a newer rides, or may not be noticeable until you've put several hundred miles on the bike.

Don't get too bogged down in the details at first. Buy a reasonably priced frame/bike that fits your needs, and one that you like (either because of the brand, color, shop that sells it, etc). If you like your bike you'll ride it more. If the bike doesn't work out it's not the end of the world, you can move your components to a different fame in the future (which is a lot cheaper than buying a new bike).


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## ScottInCincinnati (Feb 20, 2004)

Another vote here for the Gunnar Sport. It takes good ol' caliper brakes, has room for racks and fenders, but feels like a regular road bike. It really is a "do anything" bike. 

I run mine with a triple and 28mm Gatorskins. I would not hesitate to take it on dirt roads of other rough spots.


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## laxpatrick (Jan 22, 2012)

*Gunnar*

Extensive research, fitting and measurement - with a good dose of collaboration with my LBS and Richard Schwinn from Gunnar. Still waiting on the cranks...

LAX



zeppman said:


> For those of you with the Gunnar frames, were you fitted for the frame, or did you just call them and order a size that you thought would work?
> 
> I thought about the Ti cross bikes at BD, but they are all sold out of my size.
> 
> Am I wrong in thinking that I shouldn't even be looking at aluminum? I'm just worried that an aluminum bike will beat the hell out of me on longer rides.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

lax, do you have pics? I called Gunnar today and spoke to a woman named Johanna (I probably butchered that spelling..) Anyway, she was very helpful and actually pointed me more towards the sport than the crosshairs, stating the sport would be more comfortable over longer distances and the crosshairs had a much more aggressive geometry. 

I'm still thinking....


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## harrypy (Dec 30, 2011)

laffeaux said:


> A nice aluminum frame will ride nicely. A cheap aluminum frame can ride poorly (but so can a cheap steel frame).
> 
> The tire size, air pressure, wheels, and fork all have at least as much (and likely more) impact on the quality of ride than the frame's material.


+1 on how much components other than the frame have to do with ride quality.

If you are prepared to swap out tires "for the occasion", the range of do-it-all will be considerably expanded. For that, you just need a frame/brakes designed to take tires up to a minimum of 32 and a "tire jack" to save your hands (or multiple sets of wheels which is of course a lot more expensive).


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## erickB (Jan 3, 2012)

have you seen the raleigh roper? steel disc cross bike


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## esldude (Jan 3, 2009)

I think Laffeaux is giving you some good advice. Steel has some good qualities, but it isn't magic. Well done aluminum is fine. If you aren't sure what you want a good aluminum frame might be just the ticket. Even if you decide steel for later you will learn about what geometry you need. 

I also think Gunnar told you right the Crosshairs is a bit more aggressive than the Sport. I have a Roadie and Crosshairs. Have a spare Roadie frame I would like to swap for a Sport frame just to try it out. It all depends on where you riding will be done, what gets priority.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

Is the jake the snake frame considered a good aluminum frame? Again, this seems like something I just don't have access too, as I can only test ride the QBP offererings, specialized and trek frames. 

For those who have the gunnar sport, have you ridden the salsa casseroll and can you compare the two?


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## laxpatrick (Jan 22, 2012)

*Gunnar Roadie Gigantor Edition*



zeppman said:


> lax, do you have pics? I called Gunnar today and spoke to a woman named Johanna (I probably butchered that spelling..) Anyway, she was very helpful and actually pointed me more towards the sport than the crosshairs, stating the sport would be more comfortable over longer distances and the crosshairs had a much more aggressive geometry.
> 
> I'm still thinking....


It's still hanging in the local shop en frame - as I'm waiting for my cranks to get done. Waterford/Gunnar has been great to deal with and they build my frame WAY fast (hit them at the right time). Will post pics when it's built up - Some ultegra and HED's on Phil Wood blacks... If you're looking for all around, have 'em build you a sport with discs just for funzies.

Also had heard that Gunnar paint jobs were sub par when compared to Waterford (same building, I toured it and met the fine folks). Mine turned out deeeeelightfully.

Sh!t, no image posting til I get 10 posts. Sheesh. Please hold.


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## laxpatrick (Jan 22, 2012)

*Gunnar Sport Gigantor*

Let's try this again:

<img border="0" alt="" src="https://thumb2.webshots.net/t/81/81/3/44/64/2827344640030341182AxgHQS_th.jpg"/>

Webshots Rides offers thousands of the best car wallpapers.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

I own/ride a Salsa Vaya, and it's an incredibly versatile machine. If by "trails," you mean dirt/gravel, it's a great choice. If someone told me that I could only have one bike, the Vaya would be on the short list.

In commuter mode:


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

By trails, yes, I mean that... gravel paths (not much dirt). I haven't completely forgotten about the vaya, I did like it, I was just concerned with it being "too relaxed". I felt as if I was riding more of a mtn bike? I don't know. It was fun, and if the vaya 2 was priced a little lower I would of probably gotten it. I'm assuming putting some skinnier tires on it would make it more of a road machine?


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

zeppman said:


> By trails, yes, I mean that... gravel paths (not much dirt). I haven't completely forgotten about the vaya, I did like it, I was just concerned with it being "too relaxed". I felt as if I was riding more of a mtn bike? I don't know. It was fun, and if the vaya 2 was priced a little lower I would of probably gotten it. I'm assuming putting some skinnier tires on it would make it more of a road machine?


When I have slicks mounted on the Vaya, it feels much livelier than when I'm running fatter/sturdier tires. But even with treaded 37mm tires (Cont Contact Extralight), it's still plenty fast.


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## zeppman (Jul 13, 2011)

What size slicks? Do you know the most narrow tire size you can put on there?


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

zeppman said:


> What size slicks? Do you know the most narrow tire size you can put on there?


I built my Vaya up from a bare frameset, so I'm not familiar with the stock rims/wheels on the complete bikes.

That said, I never bother running anything narrower than 32mm. My favorite slicks are Vittoria Randonneur Hypers, and the ride is smooth and lively. Plenty of rubber so that bad or broken pavement isn't an issue.


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## velohound (Apr 21, 2008)

built one from pipes when i was a kid...that thing was dangerous!


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

SSRider said:


> let's see...
> 
> used crosshairs frame/fork - $400
> used rival group - $500
> ...


Honestly, you can find complete bikes for less, Gunnar that is. While they're sort of pricey new they're a great value used.


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