# Single ring on the outside postion of spider/crankset



## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Due to my decision to to run a single 44T, I can't fit the ring in the middle position on the crankset. Have you guys encountered any issues with crosschaining when using a outside single ring setup?


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

MIN in PDX said:


> Due to my decision to to run a single 44T, I can't fit the ring in the middle position on the crankset. Have you guys encountered any issues with crosschaining when using a outside single ring setup?


I really like my 38/44 setup. I'm assuming from your handle that you race in Oregon? At the Barlow race this year, I was glad to have the 38. Late in the race, the climb after the run up I was either in the 44x27 or somewhere in the 38 ring. I also liked the 38 for Hornings. You may well be stronger than me and running the 44 exclusively might be the right choice.

Anyway, I have considered going to a single ring but then I keep asking myself, what's the point?


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Gripped, this single will be using with a XTR 11-34T cassette so the gear range is as wide as a compact double setup.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

MIN in PDX said:


> Gripped, this single will be using with a XTR 11-34T cassette so the gear range is as wide as a compact double setup.


Ah. I see.

FWIW, since I've been getting stronger, I've enjoyed riding with a smaller gear spread in the back. The smaller gearing steps lets me dial in the optimum gear ratio.


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## elmar schrauth (Feb 19, 2007)

we usualy fix the singlering on the outside
so its no problem .
i


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm not running a single ring but I routinely cross-chain the crap out of my big ring and I haven't had any problems.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Last night, I went to my LBS and got some 3mm spacers for the chainring bolts. Using that, I tried to install the new FSA carbon guard on the outside of the ring. 

(BB) => (ring) => (spacer) => (ring guard)

Well, this did _not _work due to the tight clearance against the crank arm (the space in between the crank arm and the ring.) 

So I am abandoning the ring guard idea and going to a modified "FD" setup to keep the chain in place. Stay tuned.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

This thread from MTBR discusses some options I am exploring in regards to a 1x9 drivetrain without a guard.

I like the idea of the Rohloff chainguide, which replaces the FD & N-Gear chain stop.



















Another resource for single ring options.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

That Rohloff guide looks cool. Any idea why more crossers aren't using it?


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

pretender said:


> That Rohloff guide looks cool. Any idea why more crossers aren't using it?


I have found that crossers are a highly traditional bunch. I've personally received a lot of disdain for my very anti-purist ride. Not that there is anything wrong with tradition, but there are multiple ways to achieve the same result.

My background is downhill racing and freeride MTB, and in those circles, 1x9 drivetrains are very common. So is the Rohloff guide or roller-based guides. I don't believe roller based guides are appropriate for cross bikes however, due to their inherent friction/noise.


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

here's a random just goofy thought to toss out...

why not just use a front Der????

Seriously

what is wrong with it that necessitates(sp) gaurds on a chainring?

*shrug*

i'm with brooke though, gimme two rings... you can never have enough gears. If ya don't use it? so what, at least it is there 'if' you need it.

not to dissuade you from coming up with an elegant solution there MIN in PDX


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## gregdogg62 (Aug 9, 2004)

pretender said:


> That Rohloff guide looks cool. Any idea why more crossers aren't using it?


The Rohloff guide is pricey and seems to me looks to do the same thing as FD placed over the chainring in a locked out position.

I ran a N Gear Jumpstop and outside chainguard this year with no problems


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

gewilli said:


> here's a random just goofy thought to toss out...
> 
> why not just use a front Der????
> 
> ...


Why not a FD? 

(1) Aesthetically cleaner
(2) A bit lighter AND I can remove the FD shifter (I'm running downtube shifters.)
(3) less prone to getting mucked up in mud with only one ring
(4) Less is more

"you can never have enough gears."

My 1x9 has there gear range of a double compact setup so that's a moot point. In addition, there is a lot of gearing overlap with a 46/38T cyclocross double crankset.


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

okay - so take the shifter off, the cable off and leave the FD on there.

any 1/2 way decent FD will weight less and work better than two plates or a plate + 3rd eye.

After watching scores of single ring folks drop chains with all maner of combinations... it just makes me wonder. Sure double ring folks drop a chain now and then, but the beauty of a FD (even one locked in place) is that you pedal forward and magically (if done well) the chain goes back on the crank. No need to stop, and muck about with the chain. Yes there are plenty of folks who run single w/o dropping. Just opining a bit.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

gewilli said:


> okay - so take the shifter off, the cable off and leave the FD on there.
> 
> Sure double ring folks drop a chain now and then, but the beauty of a FD (even one locked in place) is that you pedal forward and magically (if done well) the chain goes back on the crank.


There's a big difference between a derailleur without a cable on it and one with. Yes, a derailleur will allow you to pedal the chain back on, however in my experience if you drop it off the low side you'll need to shift the derailleur to the big ring and pedal gingerly to get it to pick back up. Key word there being "shift." If you have no cable, you can't move it, so you can't perform this move. 

I agree that when you go off the outside of the rings you can often pedal it right back on without trimming the front der.

Speaking of trimming, if you're running front der with no cable how do you trim it? Or do you just set it up _perfectly_ so that you can go all the way from the biggest cog to the smallest without the chain rubbing on the cage?

I have heard a ton of people say that they rode the entire season with a jump stop and outer guard and didn't drop once. In fact I'm not sure that I heard a single person mention that they dropped a chain with a jump stop. I think it's far superior to a cable-less front der.



MINinPDX said:


> In addition, there is a lot of gearing overlap with a 46/38T cyclocross double crankset.


Well...that's a good thing... if you're racing. But you aren't, right? If so, I think you should start every post about this bike with "I'm not building a race bike" so people will lay off your choices :


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

colinr said:


> Well...that's a good thing... if you're racing. But you aren't, right? If so, I think you should start every post about this bike with "I'm not building a race bike" so people will lay off your choices :


I'm not sure how redundant gearing is a good thing, whether racing or otherwise. A tight gear cluster is a good thing for racing, but not gearing overlap.

re: FD vs guide

A FD, especially Shimano, is intended to be used with trimming. Since that's not possible without a shifter, I believe a better choice is a guard or a guide. In particular, the Rohloff guide allows you to basically dial in the trim from the start by adjusting the width of the guide plates. 

Also, the N-Gear stop is only 29 grams. The Rolhoff guide is 60 grams. So the sum of the two is lighter than a FD at 100 grams (Shimano 105.) I think either would work, honestly, but I prefer to not use the FD for vanity's sake.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

MIN in PDX said:


> I'm not sure how redundant gearing is a good thing, whether racing or otherwise. A tight gear cluster is a good thing for racing, but not gearing overlap.


You want overlap between the high end of your big ring and the low end of small ring so you don't have to switch between chainrings very often. If I'm running 38/46 I can do an entire muddy race in the 38, or an entire fast dry race in the 46. 

With this setup my common cx gear ratios are available from both chainrings. I can go as easy as 46x27 (1.7) in the big ring and as hard as 38x12 (3.16) in the small ring -- If I had less overlap say a 34/50 road compact up front then I can only go from 1.85 (50x27) to 2.83 (34x12) in both rings, increasing the odds that I'll need to shift the front der multiple times per lap.

Basically, I have better things to worry about when I'm trying to accelerate out of a corner in muddy conditions than soft pedaling a few strokes while I get my drivetrain sorted out during a chainring change. A lot of people run single rings for just this reason. For me, the double with lots of overlap gives you the ability to run a no-front-shift race in a lot of conditions and more versatility when you need it.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Good insights, Colinr


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

For sh1ts and giggles, here's my DH bike. It's a 1x9 XTR drivetrain with a doulbe bash guard setup. Absolutely no dropped chains with a double bashguard setup, in my experience. 

I'm exploring the world of cross recently, but my roots are expert-class DH racing.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

colinr said:


> For me, the double with lots of overlap gives you the ability to run a no-front-shift race in a lot of conditions and more versatility when you need it.


Yeah, exactly.

I did a bunch of races where I never shifted out of the 44. I did one race I was in and out of the front chain rings more than a couple times per lap (Horning's, for the record). The balance were races I'd shift rings a couple times a lap.

You want a nice usable range in either chain ring.

I went to 44 because I was able to stay in that ring much more than the 46.


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

my commuter has been single ring upfront for, hmm. 10+ years now. Maybe 15. I have a bashed up old 600 der on there. Used the bike on mt bike trails in Michigan as a cross set up (it is an old paramount road bike) no issues. 

Der is all locked down. No trimming, all function. Lossa easier to clean, assuming I get around to cleaning it.

I understand the desire to make it look like your DH bike and all that. I'm just too much of a lazy ass to spend hours re-engineering something that works perfectly well  (yes colin, i'm perfectly willing to sit and hammer out on the keyboard about it, as it appears).


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

On another note - Erin, the BBG ring guy, delivered this to my work just now since we live in the same town and had a shipping mishap earlier on. 

I ordered it a while back before I knew it woudn't fit.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

gewilli said:


> Der is all locked down. No trimming, all function. Lossa easier to clean, assuming I get around to cleaning it.


Plus, you can say you've got the same chain guide as Rhonda Mazza -- former Worlds team member and wife of Erik Tonkin. Erik set her bike up that way ...


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## shorelocal (Jan 12, 2007)

MIN in PDX said:


> but my roots are expert-class DH racing.


I'm guessing that wasn't your "expert-class" DH race bike. That rig looks HEAVY.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

shorelocal said:


> I'm guessing that wasn't your "expert-class" DH race bike. That rig looks HEAVY.


Doh, I mistakenly posted my coffee bike instead of the race bike. :mad2:


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Can I get an opinion on the aesthetics of the ring guard? It fit where the FSA carbon didn't because it was 1/16" and not 1/8" like the carbon one. But - I'm not sure about the red. 

The weight was the same at 27 grams for this BBG superlight and the FSA carbon.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Too much, IMHO. But if you were going to take _my_ advice. . .

Its amazing how simplifying your drivetrain makes everything so much more complicated :mad2: That is, until you simplify it al the way and go SS. 42:17 that sucker!


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

The reds don't match.


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

Neither do the springs in the Candies for that matter.

But I would race it nonetheless.


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## eyefloater (Jul 3, 2006)

I'd probably go black vs. clashing reds.

Also, that valve cap has to be adding at least an extra gram or two.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

I might paint it matte black on the outside and leave it ano on the inside. It's just a bit too pink.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Update on my drivetrain:
*Front*
44T FSA unramped ring. 
alloy bolts
3mm spacer between the ring and the guard
BBG superlight (27gram) guard
Pulsion Ti crankset
Dura Ace rear downtube shifter (40 grams for the single shifter)
N-Gear chain stop


*Rear*
XTR 11-34T cassette
XTR Shadow (low lateral profile compared to other RDs and the lightest in the Shimano lineup.)
SRAM superlight hollow 9sp chain
Avid Rollamajig since the RD was intended for a chainstay routing. 


*Math*
Lowest gear 1.3 gear ratio or ~35 gear inches. 
Highest gear 4 gear ratio or ~106 gear inches

As a comparision, a triple crankset 30-34-52T with 12-23T cassette has about the same range over 30 gears.
So same range, less gears in between. 

I rode 50 miles yesterday and I always found a gear that I liked and the shifting is divinely crisp.


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## dyg2001 (Sep 23, 2004)

Your bike is definitely unique. Enjoy it in good health.


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## tedgrant (Jun 13, 2006)

*run it on the inside*

ive ran it both ways, inside is best.

dont take my word for it , install it both ways and look at the chainline, the outside position looks BAD when in lowest gear. when mounted on the inside of the outer position (looks goofy but one gets used to it), the chainline is much straighter when in top gear

Ive converted most of my bikes to a 1x8 or 1x9 set up, I miss the lowest 2 gears, but not the 1.5 pounds, so its atradeoff..


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

tedgrant said:


> Ive converted most of my bikes to a 1x8 or 1x9 set up, I miss the lowest 2 gears, but not the 1.5 pounds, so its atradeoff..


1.5lbs? Really? You get rid of a F/D, and a chainring, and a handful of chain links, and come out a pound and a half ahead? That really adds up that much?

Just to be clear, I'm wondering, not arguing.


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## liveonedge (Dec 21, 2005)

For you crossers out there while on the subject of chainrings and guards I've got a Salsa Crossing Guard 44t max 110mm BDC for anyone that wants to run a single ring setup. It's not carbon or shiny red but rather stealth black!
http://classifieds.roadbikereview.com/showproduct.php?product=7030&cat=16
Nice bike Min in PDX


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## hoovermd (Feb 1, 2008)

MIN in PDX said:


> Due to my decision to to run a single 44T, I can't fit the ring in the middle position on the crankset. Have you guys encountered any issues with crosschaining when using a outside single ring setup?


I just set up a bike this way but I faced the BB first because I was looking for a narrow Q.
I had to put the CR on the outside to clear the Chainstays.
I still had to space my freewheel out almose half of the avail threads on my ENO hub.


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