# how do I know if I need a longer stem?



## osteomark (Jun 15, 2011)

My right low back was aching yesterday after a 20miler. I have a 54cm Trek 1.2 triple. The LBS said after I bought it I might need a longer stem. I'm 5'9 and 31" inseam. I'm seeing the front wheel hub when I'm riding and I've heard that the handle bars should hide the hub. A longer stem would do that. More aerodynamic also. Thanks.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

The hide the hub thing doesn't always work, and people these days are going shorter than that because they spend ALL their time on the hoods.

In the days when riders used the drops, a distance of 2 to 4 inches from bent elbow to knees when down low was a sensible starting point.

Comfort trumps aerodynamics. But your back stiffness might be the saddle position, not the bars.

Either use the information from Lemond's book or another decent source to fit yourself, or spend the money on a recommended professional.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

osteomark said:


> *My right low back was aching yesterday after a 20miler*. I have a 54cm Trek 1.2 triple. The LBS said after I bought it I might need a longer stem. I'm 5'9 and 31" inseam. I'm seeing the front wheel hub when I'm riding and I've heard that the handle bars should hide the hub. A longer stem would do that. More aerodynamic also. Thanks.


Being _right_ lower back pain may or may not mean something, but generally speaking, _lower_ back pain signals the possible need for higher bars. In the absence of neck pain (and given your proportions/ frame size), I wouldn't rule out the need for a longer stem, but not knowing your current set up, that's a guess.

Since you mentioned your LBS, I'd work with them on this, but first thing I'd suggest is to raise the bars about 1cm, put in some saddle time and assess from there. If the pain subsides, try raising the bars a little more (but keeping them below saddle height). If not, try a 1cm longer stem (initially maintaining the new bar height). 

Assuming you're relatively new to riding a drop bar bike, don't fret about being 'more aero' at this point in time. It's better to taylor fit to your anatomy, and as you build saddle time (and fitness/ flexibility) you can always increase saddle to bar drop incrementally in the future.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Lower back pain can come from bad saddle position (fore, aft, up down), bars too far, bars too close, bars too high or bars too low. And sometimes it isn't a position thing at all.

Not knowing your starting position, it is impossible to guess how to fix your position to resolve pain with an unknown source. I would start with some sort of at least general fitting, THEN see if that needs to be modified. Randomly raising your bars is just flailing around in the dark, not addressing the problem's root.


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## osteomark (Jun 15, 2011)

My seat is level with the handle bars. Knees are over the pedals ( I dropped a weighted string from front of knee and was at ball of down foot. About 10* bend at the bottom also. So I think the seat is OK.
I noticed in this ride I did not have the right shoulder blade ache that some people and myself complain of, so that was good.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

osteomark said:


> *My seat is level with the handle bars*. Knees are over the pedals ( I dropped a weighted string from front of knee and was at ball of down foot. About 10* bend at the bottom also. So I think the seat is OK.
> I noticed in this ride I did not have the right shoulder blade ache that some people and myself complain of, so that was good.


Then I advise against raising the bars. As your LBS fitter suggested, a (1cm) longer stem would be the next adjustment to consider, assuming you've had an initial fitting. 

If you're unfamiliar with stem swaps and headset bearing pre-load adjustments, have the LBS work with you on this change.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> Being _right__lower_ back pain signals the possible need for higher bars.


Also signals the "possible" need for lower bars. My back is much happier with lower bars: tops of the bars 10 cm below the top of the saddle.


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## osteomark (Jun 15, 2011)

Went to the LBS and he said I should put in 200mi on the bike before we can tell if needs new stem. He is going to flip it today so the handle bars will be lower. Cheap way to see if the bar height is the issue.
He forgot to tell me yesterday that the old clips that I put on the new bike were coming off. He said I would have ridden them right off soon. He is putting on new Shimano's. I like having clips on top and bottom of the clip.
When I rode last PM I thought there was some drag ( not from my fatigue. LOL) on the rear tire. Sure enough walking it into the shop it was rubbing. I don't think I like the real close adjusted brakes.Rub too easily if bumped. I'll make sure there is more gap. I don't have to have quick short brakes. No wonder I was dogging it!


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

osteomark said:


> My right low back was aching yesterday after a 20miler. I have a 54cm Trek 1.2 triple. The LBS said after I bought it I might need a longer stem. I'm 5'9 and 31" inseam. I'm seeing the front wheel hub when I'm riding and I've heard that the handle bars should hide the hub. A longer stem would do that. More aerodynamic also. Thanks.


"aching" what kind? fatigued muscle soreness? deep burning pain? Does the pain extend to your buttocks? or to your upper back? How often do you ride? Are you trying to support your upper body with your abs or lower back muscles? Are your hamstrings tight? how often do you change positions while riding?

I am 5' 9 3/4" and ride 56cm or 58cm frames 'cause I have lower back problems (two surgeries) and in my case, the lower back discomfort was due to a combination of:
saddle too low (puts stress on lower back); weak abs ( I work my abs every day now); saddle too far forward (not enough weight supported by my butt); too long reach (adjusted based on new saddle setback). My position now is not the most aero and does not look "fast" but I can do 100 miles without discomfort. 
You'll be amazed how just a few mm make a difference!!
The key for lower back issues is getting the correct relationship (angle) of your hips to your upper body and then adjusting the bars accordingly; "Correct" means what works for you.


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## osteomark (Jun 15, 2011)

Rob,
Right low back, not radiating, just aching. I've, thank God never had a back issue.
I do saddle adjustment by: Height = around 10 degee angle on down leg. 
The saddle front/back by level pedals have front of knee over ball of foot. 
The clip is under the ball of my foot also.
I'll see if the flipped stem helps.
I'll let you know.
Glad you can do a Century with s/p 2 lumbar surgeries!!!!!!


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## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

Post a profile picture of you on your bike on the hoods and in the drops.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

osteomark said:


> My seat is level with the handle bars. Knees are over the pedals ( I dropped a weighted string from front of knee and was at ball of down foot. About 10* bend at the bottom also. So I think the seat is OK.


Knee Over Pedal Spindle is a starting point that often happens to work, not a hard rule based on anatomical facts.

Depending on your proportions you might need to be someplace else to keep your weight balanced (My 15 year old well-loved saddle cracked and got uncomfortable so I replaced it with the current model having a slightly different shape and found too much weight on my hands and sore shoulders for the first several rides until I moved 1/4" back from KOPS).


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## ultraman6970 (Aug 1, 2010)

+ 1 in the picture because the back pain could be many things, even a problem with the femur sockets, but since the OP had to flip the stem I'm not expecting to see anything out of the usual bad posture.

Probably the best thing you have to do is to set up the saddle height and the back seat in an average way and use that as starting point. I would advice you to calculate the saddle height using the lemond formula just to start, then put the saddle 3 to 4 cms behind the BB center (somebody mentioned KOPS) Then Level the saddle because big chance the saddle is pointing up and maybe the pain comes from there.

Then change the saddle for a descent one, why? because if the saddle doesnt give support the back will hurt too. For the record the bontranger affinity sadle has too much padding, maybe the pain is coming from there. that u have padding doesnt mean that the saddle gives you support and like 99.9% of the time as much padding it has the worse it is. For you to understand, have u ever seated in those super comfy sofas that has like 4 tons of padding? usually u can seat on those for more than 30 mins because the low back starts hurting.

Flip the stem the bike will look better too 

Good luck


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

looigi said:


> Also signals the "possible" need for lower bars. My back is much happier with lower bars: tops of the bars 10 cm below the top of the saddle.


If you're going to quote me, please keep it in full context. What I said was...
_Being right lower back pain may or may not mean something, but* generally speaking*, lower back pain signals the possible need for higher bars_.

The qualifiers were included for a reason, and are meant to convey a slightly different opinion than your partial quote suggests. 

That said, I agree that some rider benefit from a lower, more aero position and hold the belief that there's a lot more gray to bike fit than there is black and white.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> If you're going to quote me, please keep it in full context. What I said was....


HTFU. I quoted you in a thread where your full response was there to be read by anybody interested, not in a vacuum. Also, I put quotes around "possible" to emphasize your use of the word, possible, which was good because it allows for other possibilities, like lowering the bars, which has worked for me.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

osteomark said:


> My seat is level with the handle bars. Knees are over the pedals ( I dropped a weighted string from front of knee and was at ball of down foot. About 10* bend at the bottom also. So I think the seat is OK.
> I noticed in this ride I did not have the right shoulder blade ache that some people and myself complain of, so that was good.


10 degrees is not a lot of bend at the bottom of the stroke. I've had 15 recommended, and people throw around some other, larger numbers too.

Try putting the saddle a little lower. Just a few millimeters will make a difference you can feel. Getting this stuff right takes some experimentation. Paying someone else to fit you on your bike can save some time.


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