# New vs Old



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Comparison by GCN


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## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Very nice...thanks for posting.


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

The old bikes are very nice to ride.
I have a 1980 ALAN with the old Campy SR and a 1986 Tommaso but with more modern 1998 Campy 9 spd with DT shifters, in addition to my more modern bikes.

They all offer a different type of ride and various attributes. They're all fun to ride but technology has provided a significant gap in exact performance. Though, my ALAN is a 17lb bike.

Great video.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

That was a treat!


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## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

paredown said:


> That was a treat!


Gotta agree, that was cool!


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

great treat. thanks for sharing. 

Its funny, even today, how many of the parts could simply swap between the bikes. Despite so many years, many of the hard and fast rules still apply so to speak

Until you have owned and rode a classic small tubed steel frame, you just wont get it. they have a way of giving back that is hard to explain, but easy to feel once you ride it. 

That being said, modern gear ratios are still my favorite. So you can build up a steel frame and modern components and literly have the best of both worlds. 

Bill


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I really hate the feel of those old handlebars when riding on the hoods.


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I really hate the feel of those old handlebars when riding on the hoods.


I've upgraded my old bikes to the 1998-9ish Campy TT carbon brake levers.
I don't like the old brake levers either (campy's or Shimanos) until the Shimano Dura-Ace 7400 & 7402s - those ones fit my small hands like a glove and were so comfortable.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

crossracer said:


> That being said, modern gear ratios are still my favorite. So you can build up a steel frame and modern components and literly have the best of both worlds.
> 
> Bill


I agree with this 100%.

A modern drivetrain and caliper brakes on a steel bike is a combination that can't be beat.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm in the process of rebuilding a 50's motobecane, with 70's peugeot pr10 parts and wheels. we'll see what moves, what doesn't.

gotta ride the old to appreciate the newer. 

but I've enjoyed my 853 steel bikes from around the turn of the century, modern gearing. but the older rides beg the question, just how the "modern" fast riders of today would fair, suddenly, if they had to ride with 5 rear 2 front speed gearing of the 60's - 80's. pit greg lemond with "modern" gear" against a non-drugged lance at the height of both careers...eddie merckx, too, you say? ok, un-drugged for him too. I take lemond hands down, and the best of today would have a tough time with him as well.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

trumpetbiker said:


> gotta ride the old to appreciate the newer


Old steel has a nice look and feel but mine hangs on the wall and modern carbon is what I actually


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

It is a cool episode of theirs. And doubly so for me! I am building a Carrera team Roche Replica bike like that one as I speak. Frame is at Toxiclabs getting the Carrera colour scheme, and I ordered the rest of the vintage Campy I needed to make it whole. Have the decals, the Benotto tape, and even a vintage Rolls saddle en route. Owned this SLX Battaglin since new, myself, in a very non-Roche 63cm.

Just not sure I am ready to go full-retard with the toe clips. I mean even in 87 most everyone was on Look clipless .. well except Roche. My objection to going that far is the need to try and find some old Detto leather shoes in size 48 , ugh. And at 47, can I count on myself to flip open the clips in time, every time? LOL. OK more of a Chiapppucci -replica then, as I have seen his Carrera Battagling with Looks on.

I will ride the bike sometimes, maybe if they have some Eroica events on the Pacific west coast. But mostly hang on the wall of our den for decoration.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Most of my bikes are vintage steel so watching the video was nothing new for me except the older guy climbing the grade and he couldn't get a low enough gear and stalled because he was using the old school racing cluster called a corncob which was not the best gear cluster to use climbing gears with since it was intended for flat ground crit type of racing. 

But compared to aluminum and carbon fiber steel is indeed more comfortable, but I find titanium to be as comfortable and in some respects maybe a bit more, but ti is also more responsive...at least with my Lynskey and a couple of others I test rode, there are some smaller diameter TI frames that give a really nice comfortable ride but owners say their wippy, and on the other end I knew a guy who had a Lightspeed Blade and felt the ride was harsh, and I'm sure other designs will have other effects.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

Ti is a great modern compromise between high end steel and CF.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

I still love how my old steel Cilo rides. Amazingly comfortable frame that I enjoy every time I ride it. But the handlebars feel sooooo narrow and I shift a lot more with 6 speed and 42-52 front rings. Now riding with clips today is almost insane, especially if you're switching back and forth between bikes.

Thinking about gearing, the Gitane Super Corsa I owned in the 1970s had a 11-21 cluster on the back. Think about it. At least I was 40 lbs lighter back then!

The Cilo is about to get the SRAM group and handlebar from my Pina which is getting a new drivetrain. Which made me nostalgic to have at least one truly old school bike, so I picked up a higher end Lotus off Craigs List for cheap. LOL!


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

AJ88V said:


> I still love how my old steel Cilo rides. Amazingly comfortable frame that I enjoy every time I ride it. But the handlebars feel sooooo narrow and I shift a lot more with 6 speed and 42-52 front rings. Now riding with clips today is almost insane, especially if you're switching back and forth between bikes.
> 
> Thinking about gearing, the Gitane Super Corsa I owned in the 1970s had a 11-21 cluster on the back. Think about it. At least I was 40 lbs lighter back then!
> 
> The Cilo is about to get the SRAM group and handlebar from my Pina which is getting a new drivetrain. Which made me nostalgic to have at least one truly old school bike, so I picked up a higher end Lotus off Craigs List for cheap. LOL!


Back in '97 I had my '86 Tomasso rear triangle spread to accept 130 wheels. It ran Dura-Ace 8spd for a while but has since reverted to Campagnolo with DT 9 spd shifters and 9 speed wheels. 

The only issue I came across was the original Campy Titanium 9 spd small cog was 3mm away from the drop out and the chain would rub against the dropout. The '98 spd OS hubs were about 3.75mm away with no chain rub. 

My bars have always been wide at 46cm O-O. You can always get wider bars even vintage ones. I think I'm using the Cinelli Eubios bars.
On my '80 ALAN all my old wheels I updated to 7 spd compact freewheels and Sedis-sport chains. Gives you more gearing.

You can always make a few updates to make it more comfortable, even vintage specific you just have to look around.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

AJ88V said:


> I still love how my old steel Cilo rides. Amazingly comfortable frame that I enjoy every time I ride it. But the handlebars feel sooooo narrow and I shift a lot more with 6 speed and 42-52 front rings. Now riding with clips today is almost insane, especially if you're switching back and forth between bikes.
> 
> Thinking about gearing, the Gitane Super Corsa I owned in the 1970s had a 11-21 cluster on the back. Think about it. At least I was 40 lbs lighter back then!
> 
> The Cilo is about to get the SRAM group and handlebar from my Pina which is getting a new drivetrain. Which made me nostalgic to have at least one truly old school bike, so I picked up a higher end Lotus off Craigs List for cheap. LOL!


My Falcon San Remo still has its original parts from 1971--an unusual (for the time) 53-42 Campy front--and I used to race with a 13-18 5 speed on the back for flat courses, and something like a 13-21 for hilly courses. 40 cm c-t-c bars and a Brooks pro.

And I too was about 40 pounds lighter at racing weight. Worse yet though is that I am shrinking--I'm a good inch and a bit shorter than I was in my 20s, and the frame was already on the large size--saved only by the fact that they used to not scale up the top tube lengths for the larger frames.

I've been looking at vintage Campy triples, and thinking about a wider ratio 6 speed block, since I have dreams of riding an Eroica-style event on it and I *hate* walking up hills.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

paredown said:


> My Falcon San Remo still has its original parts from 1971--an unusual (for the time) 53-42 Campy front--and I used to race with a 13-18 5 speed on the back for flat courses, and something like a 13-21 for hilly courses. 40 cm c-t-c bars and a Brooks pro.
> 
> And I too was about 40 pounds lighter at racing weight. Worse yet though is that I am shrinking--I'm a good inch and a bit shorter than I was in my 20s, and the frame was already on the large size--saved only by the fact that they used to not scale up the top tube lengths for the larger frames.
> 
> I've been looking at vintage Campy triples, and thinking about a wider ratio 6 speed block, since I have dreams of riding an Eroica-style event on it and I *hate* walking up hills.



compact and 11-30 or 12-32, I ride that on most of my 2001 -2014 bikes. you won't walk up hills, the ratio is that of triple and 11-25. if you go modern. if you stay with the older because of the rear spacing, then triple is your only route.

I'll say I love my steel rides, although they aren't the older lugged columbus/reynolds from the 70's or 80's, they are all tig w 853 or modern tig w cromo and ride great. the most comfortable frame--------not set up---------was a miyata 1000 triple, cromo frame and fork, lugged, japanese. I was a snot nosed college kid and could ride anything and not get tired. but I'm sure if I compared that or the 80;s trek training frame to any of my 853's or ti, I wouldn't like it for long. the new geometry and dialed in material choices for stays and fork have changed the rides completely.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

trumpetbiker said:


> compact and 11-30 or 12-32, I ride that on most of my 2001 -2014 bikes. you won't walk up hills, the ratio is that of triple and 11-25. if you go modern. if you stay with the older because of the rear spacing, then triple is your only route.


He's talking about an Eroica event, so that 10- or 11-speed stuff wouldn't be allowed. Downtube shifters only.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

JCavilia said:


> He's talking about an Eroica event, so that 10- or 11-speed stuff wouldn't be allowed. Downtube shifters only.



no I got it. I wasn't familiar with what those events were called, I read about one last year, very fun. just googled to find out the particulars with one. thx for the education!!


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

Falcon, Tomasso, ahhh, the stuff of dreams. These old classic frames didn't happen by accident. They were the products of 100 years of evolution. I liken the high end lugged steel frames of yesteryear to the piston-engined fighters at the end of WWII. Just like carbon has surpassed steel and aluminum (mostly), those old fighters were soon made obsolete by the jet engine. But it doesn't take away from what truly amazing machines they were (and still are).



JCavilia said:


> He's talking about an Eroica event, so that 10- or 11-speed stuff wouldn't be allowed. Downtube shifters only.


Just out of curiosity, why doesn't Eroica allow bar end shifters? Surely those were available in the 1970's, at least the friction variety. Maybe even earlier. I used bar ends on most of my bikes. No scraping your fingers into the front tire during a hasty shift under pressure, and much easier to access when in the drops and pumping it out.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

AJ88V said:


> ...
> Just out of curiosity, why doesn't Eroica allow bar end shifters? Surely those were available in the 1970's, at least the friction variety. Maybe even earlier. I used bar ends on most of my bikes. No scraping your fingers into the front tire during a hasty shift under pressure, and much easier to access when in the drops and pumping it out.


They do allow period correct bar-ends according to the last iteration of the rules that I saw.

Funny thing is that my Falcon shipped with the first-gen Campagnolo bar ends--I liked them a lot, especially for stealth shifts in a race, but the cables/action were never as good as they should be. If I can find mine in my mom's basement, I'm going to try reinstalling them with modern quality cables and see if that does the trick.



> <<6.1 – BICYCLES
> Historical Bikes (also called Bici Eroiche in Italian) are all road racing bikes built before 1987 both with gears and without gears, as those built in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. These bicycles most likely have a steel frame, but also other types of rare frames are permitted, such as the aluminium frames built by Alan and Vitus with screwed or glued joints and the Exxon Graftek frames of the late 1970’s with carbon tubes glued to aluminium lugs.
> Regarding the components the bicycles should be in line with the following general guidelines:
> a) older geared bicycles should have original shifters such as Cambio Corsa, Cambio Paris Roubaix, Cambio Vittoria Margherita, etc.
> ...


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

AJ88V said:


> Falcon, Tomasso, ahhh, the stuff of dreams. These old classic frames didn't happen by accident. They were the products of 100 years of evolution. I liken the high end lugged steel frames of yesteryear to the piston-engined fighters at the end of WWII. Just like carbon has surpassed steel and aluminum (mostly), those old fighters were soon made obsolete by the jet engine. But it doesn't take away from what truly amazing machines they were (and still are).
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why doesn't Eroica allow bar end shifters? Surely those were available in the 1970's, at least the friction variety. Maybe even earlier. I used bar ends on most of my bikes. No scraping your fingers into the front tire during a hasty shift under pressure, and much easier to access when in the drops and pumping it out.


pre 1980 bar ends only, they say. of course bar end shifters came out in the 40's or so, so they've been a part of cycling for quite a long time. but as I understand it, these events are steel frame only, and limited to pre 1980 rides with mid century traditions. just the sight of so many rides from the 40's- 60's would be worth it to be there.

love to hear people's experiences with these rides. anyone out there ride with a front derailleur lever from that time? and anyone have experience dealing with the simplex/huret/campy derailleurs from that time as well? thinking of building one up...


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

trumpetbiker said:


> pre 1980 bar ends only, they say. of course bar end shifters came out in the 40's or so, so they've been a part of cycling for quite a long time. but as I understand it, these events are steel frame only, and limited to pre 1980 rides with mid century traditions. just the sight of so many rides from the 40's- 60's would be worth it to be there.


I haven't done The original Eroica, nor others yet. But the rules are restricted to 1987 (or 1989?) and earlier, no indexing, no aero cable routing, and no clipless pedals. Also they say no bar end shifters unless before 1980. So plenty of 80s bikes are fine for it

translation from the italian L'Eroica site from 5 years ago:


> By 'bikes for the Eroica' we mean all the road race bikes built before 1987, with downtube shift levers, pedal cages and toe straps, brake cables routed outside the frame tubes. Bikes with more recent built frames can be used, but features like handlebars, shifters, pedals, etc. must be vintage.
> The organizers may concede exception for other types of bikes, if requested, for physical/sensory disabled participants.
> For the 38Km ride, other vintage bike types are allowed, such as work bikes, postman bikes, leisure bikes, with the exclusion of mountain bikes.
> It is expressely forbidden to take part in the event using bikes that do not possess the above requirements. Any individual attempting to do so will be made to eat a large plate of 3 week old polenta and generally be made fun of, especially if he is foreign.


I have never touched a front tire using downtube shifter for 30 years - that's a new one for me.

Simplex, Huret - they work like derailleurs today, just on friction. I built hundred of bikes with those back in the day. Would be neat to see a complete classic like my 1974 Lejeune again.


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## AJ88V (Nov 14, 2012)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I have never touched a front tire using downtube shifter for 30 years - that's a new one for me.
> 
> Simplex, Huret - they work like derailleurs today, just on friction. I built hundred of bikes with those back in the day. Would be neat to see a complete classic like my 1974 Lejeune again.


How tall are you? The front tire is a lot closer to the downtube on small frames.

Agree with your comments about friction shifters. In fact, the first index shifters I had allowed you to switch to friction, which is what I did immediately, since the index always seemed to have a little chain clatter. Friction let's you dial it in perfectly every time. 

Of course, modern index systems are very good, but I still wonder if friction shifting isn't still superior for the front rings.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

AJ88V said:


> How tall are you? The front tire is a lot closer to the downtube on small frames.
> 
> Agree with your comments about friction shifters. In fact, the first index shifters I had allowed you to switch to friction, which is what I did immediately, since the index always seemed to have a little chain clatter. Friction let's you dial it in perfectly every time.
> 
> Of course, modern index systems are very good, but I still wonder if friction shifting isn't still superior for the front rings.


I'm a big fan of the modern combo brake/shifter and the indexing--I feel it is the single biggest improvement in bike ergonomics in the modern era. As my eyesight and balance get a little worse, I really appreciate being able to ride on the hoods, keep my head up and eyes forward, and not have to take my eyes off the road for those occasional shifts when you haven't got it quite right.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

BCSaltchucker said:


> I haven't done The original Eroica, nor others yet. But the rules are restricted to 1987 (or 1989?) and earlier, no indexing, no aero cable routing, and no clipless pedals. Also they say no bar end shifters unless before 1980. So plenty of 80s bikes are fine for it
> 
> translation from the italian L'Eroica site from 5 years ago:
> 
> ...


Over 40 years for me and I never have touched the front tire either, even when I was a beginner. Maybe if I got drunk and decided to ride that could happen.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

paredown said:


> I'm a big fan of the modern combo brake/shifter and the indexing--I feel it is the single biggest improvement in bike ergonomics in the modern era. As my eyesight and balance get a little worse, I really appreciate being able to ride on the hoods, keep my head up and eyes forward, and not have to take my eyes off the road for those occasional shifts when you haven't got it quite right.


well of course, pretty much everything new is better in cycling. But this is the retro subforum. For folks into the antique aesthetic, or just nostalgic.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

BCSaltchucker said:


> well of course, pretty much everything new is better in cycling. But this is the retro subforum. For folks into the antique aesthetic, or just nostalgic.


I kind of agree but I also disagree. When it comes to the integrated shifters I do agree ergonomically it's nice, but mechanically it has more problems than either SIS or Friction ever remotely had, nor does integrated systems last anywhere near as long, and the odd part is integrated shifting shifts SLOWER than SIS!!! I have 2 bikes with SIS and 2 with integrated and both SIS bikes shift faster, I found the same to be true with my friends integrated systems. I find that integrated shifting is about on par with friction in terms of positiveness in the engagement and speed of the shift; now of course with friction if you're not real proficient with it you can mess up shifts whereas with SIS or integrated you can't really do that unless something is not adjusted correctly.

I also, opinion here of course, think that CF frames and parts is an inferior material that is not built to last a long long time of constant use.

I like modern tires, they're far better that what I use to have to train and race on; but tubes have actually gotten worse, they use to put a reinforcement grommet at the base of the valve stem to prevent accidental tearing but the companies have removed that, and I find more flaws in the thickness consistency of the tube. I like aero rims, that would have been great to have back in my racing days. Toe straps vs clipless, I don't see any advantage of the clipless other than theres no strap to contend with so entry is faster especially with my dual entry pedals. Lights and batteries are way way better than the crap I had when I first started riding. Pumps are better, at least the smaller ones are, the frame pumps are still the same; but the first small ones (and for many years after they came out) were a complete waste of time, but in the past 5 years or so there has been a big improvement in the mini pump world for a few, but there are still a lot of bad ones being sold.

So I don't hate everything that's new, what I hate is to get something new at the expense of reliability and then having to replace newer stuff all the time. At the same token I'm not going to lie to you and say I don't like the look of older bikes, I like the looks of older bikes because they're much more artistic looking then they are today. I go to the Auburn museum in Auburn Indiana with friends about once a year, the first time I went I spent about 4 hours in the place and when I stepped outside I realized that the cars we drive today have no artistic value to them, they all look the same and they all look plasticky and cheap; I have this same thought when I look at vintage bikes vs modern bikes. 

Of course all that I said is just my opinions.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Froze. Some things are way better. 

Tires, insanely better. And thank god people have gotten away from that 17-18mm crap. 

Brakes. Older where prettier, but didn't stop quite as well as today's stuff. Not a huge issue if you don't have huge hills. 









Shifters? Again. I'm 50/50. For every day relaxed riding not a huge thing to have ergos. But if you are trying to be a bit competetive, they are a huge help. 

Bikes work better today, the engineering is light years above what it was back in 1989 (when I started) that said, I'm not impressed with today's computer stuff. That's completely IMHO. I've allways said, show the wright brothers a non computer bike of today, they would figure it out in an hour or so. The computer stuff (while amazing) still violates my personnel KISS rule. 

Bill


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

crossracer said:


> Froze. Some things are way better.
> 
> Tires, insanely better. And thank god people have gotten away from that 17-18mm crap.
> 
> ...


I did mention the tires that they are better today.

Wrong about the brakes though, as surprising as that sounds with all the marketing geniuses that say otherwise. I use to race the mountains of S California with single pivot brakes and I never flew off a mountain and neither did pros. Any type of brake will stop a bicycle just as fast if certain things are the same, total weight and distribution of said weight, same tire and psi, same road and conditions, condition of brake pads and rims. It's all about tire adhesion, how good the rider is at using brakes; and that's it. So less grippy tires will not stop as fast as high grip tires, a heavy rider won't stop as fast as a light rider, rough pavement won't stop as fast as smooth pavement. 

In other words if you could clone a biker, his bike, and road conditions then gave one a set of single pivot brakes and the other disk brakes and asked each to go the same speed and then stop as fast as they can they both will stop in the same distance.

Granted with some single pivot brakes it takes a bit more squeeze of the lever to get the same amount of force that dual pivot will, but that's not always the case. I have a set of Suntour Superbe single pivot brakes and their as smooth and use the same amount of force that my Campy Athena or my Shimano 105 dual pivots do, and just as easy to modulate. Cheap single pivot brakes had quite a bit of flex in the calipers but even those you could still stop fast if needed, but cheap brakes like that were found on department store bikes where kids or slow riding adults bought their bikes and thus they never went fast enough to worry about it! 

Also of course on snowy and muck roads or off road, or all carbon wheels (no aluminum brake track) disk brakes are superior but otherwise they're not. 

Bikes may work better overall today but they are less reliable today and cost more to fix or replace bad components.

Computers, the weird thing is I have an old Paramount computer from the early 80's that still works except for the wire got pulled out about 10 years or so ago, that thing lasted over 20 years; since about 10 years ago I've went through 3 wireless computers and I'm on my 4th! There's that nasty reliability thing again. I also keep my computers simple, but the last wireless I got was a combo HRM and computer downloadable mumbo jumbo that I don't use, I do use the HRM though. I was going to buy a wired job but I got a $200 something VDO Z2 computer for $40, so I figured if the sending unit goes bad like all the others did then I would wear it as a HRM watch and buy a wired computer! 

I like the KISS principle too which is why I would never buy a electronic shifting system, disk brakes unless I decided to get serious about dirt riding which at my age is highly doubtful! LOL I even do the kiss principle in my cars I buy and other things, simplicity has less things to go wrong.

Please note, this stuff I've said is just my opinion based on my experiences over a 40 year span of riding. I still have my last racing bike and that bike has over 160,000 miles of racing/training/recreational riding on it and its never had a component failure except the front derailleur band snapped so I had to use my extra one I bought years prior, other than that no bearings have failed, nothing, with the complete Suntour Superbe group. Try doing those sort of miles on modern stuff.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Froze, not arguing. I've been doing this over 25 years. It's allways fun hearing different opinions. 
When I said computers I was referring to electronic shifting systems. Sorry about the confusion.
The one thing over the years I sold that I really hate I got rid of was a set of Superbe pro brakes. The brakes with the spring hidden
In the arms. Those where so pretty. 

Bill


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

crossracer said:


> Froze, not arguing. I've been doing this over 25 years. It's allways fun hearing different opinions.
> When I said computers I was referring to electronic shifting systems. Sorry about the confusion.
> The one thing over the years I sold that I really hate I got rid of was a set of Superbe pro brakes. The brakes with the spring hidden
> In the arms. Those where so pretty.
> ...




I just can't buy into the e-shifting thing, you have too much that can go wrong with servos, batteries, wireless sending unit (which if my wireless computers are any indication about 3 years is all they'll last) with no way of repairing it on the road, and much more costly repairs than mechanical. Of course with todays world of cell phones one just needs to call their mommy when their bike fails but I'm not like that, so much so that to resist the temptation I don't even carry a cell phone when I ride unless I'm expecting an important call. But that is not new to me because I've been riding bikes for almost longer than cell phones have been around! I carry tools and stuff in my bag so I can fix the most common problems, but I keep my bikes in very good condition and can't even remember when the last time I had a mechanical breakdown on the road. I broke a spoke once on a ride about 20 years ago due to a stick sticking out I failed to see while watching something else, but with 36 spokes minus 1 all I had to do was wrap the spoke around another and rode it home without even having to adjust the nearby spokes, try doing that with low spoke wheels.

The Superbe Brakes I have do not have the hidden spring ones, but they work incredibly smooth, so smooth you would think you were using top of the line dual pivots instead of single pivot brakes. Mine are the 1984 flavor when I got the group, here is what they look like: https://velobase.com/CompImages/Brakes/5B26525B-90DB-4B59-B6B2-B4FB0F261205.jpeg (slight differences is mine has a reddish adjusting thumb barrel (whatever that thing is called) and it came with reddish brake pads probably made by Matthauser but with Superbe name on, (of which I have a set of brand new ones when the current ones wear out). My understanding is that the Superbe brakes were made by Dia Compe, but what most people don't realize is that the Superbe brakes were an exact copy of the Campy Record and all the parts were interchangeable! I don't ride that bike much anymore because of having 160,000+ on the components, everything seems good but I don't want to risk being out 50 miles from home with them, so I ride it only occasionally and on a short trip just for old times sakes.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Froze, disc brakes are HUGE HUGE improvement over all the rim brakes on mtn bikes. Utterly night and day difference here in the PNW. Now I could ride contentedly with my 1990 Klein attitude in the desert with Xt cantilevers. But in the wet and insanely technical conditions here, the Atti was outmatched, and the brakes being the worst weakness (lack of suspension was not a hardship, imho - I prefer rigid and hardtailers)

Pumps - the best is still the old Zefal pumps. They are ugly and heavy, but still the best I think. And I don't use them as it is not a priority.

Carbon fibre wears out does it? I just got my first CF bike, so just getting familiar with it. Kind of perturbed about what it does when I stand up and sprint. Really liking the Ti I have ridden a couple years now. Alu road bike finally sold this week.

The trouble with toe clips and the old metal cleats is .. float. I like the adjustable float we get with modern clipless - but this was available even in the late 80s.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Froze, disc brakes are HUGE HUGE improvement over all the rim brakes on mtn bikes. Utterly night and day difference here in the PNW. Now I could ride contentedly with my 1990 Klein attitude in the desert with Xt cantilevers. But in the wet and insanely technical conditions here, the Atti was outmatched, and the brakes being the worst weakness (lack of suspension was not a hardship, imho - I prefer rigid and hardtailers)
> 
> Pumps - the best is still the old Zefal pumps. They are ugly and heavy, but still the best I think. And I don't use them as it is not a priority.
> 
> ...


I did say in my post that disk brakes are the way to go with MTB's used in harsh conditions.

Pumps? I have an old Zefal and that thing is extremely rugged and reliable, I hit a dog with it once real hard and never damaged the pump except for some blood on the head of the pump. However I will say as far as ease of use goes the Topeak Road Morph G I think has the Zefal beat, with it's fold out footpeg and handle along with the hose makes pumping air into a tire about as easy as a floor pump! And it has a gauge so you know your close to your idea psi level. But I call that Topeak a half frame pump because it is rather large. 

I used toe clips for years and was never bothered by it, but I do agree that clipless design is easier and faster to get into the pedal, getting out is about the same. The pedals I have are the SpeedPlay Frogs and they have full float which at first bothered me because it felt like I was squirming on the pedal but now I don't even think about it. However there is more to go wrong with the clipless design in general with their springs and catches, but that's why I like Speedplay because they eliminated all that. In addition to clipless problems is the cleats only last about 3 to 4 seasons, my toe clip shoes use a plastic screw in cleat instead of metal cleat that was probably nailed in like yours, are over 30 years old and never wore out...the tops of the shoes are getting a bit worn though! 

The newest information about CF is that it is fatiguing, see: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/frames-going-soft/

The fatigue issue, which I had a close friend of mine who worked in the Aerospace field for years told me to stay away from consumer grade CF they use in bike frames because of the fatigue issue and other issues long before the above article finally admitted it publicly. So when I considered the different frame materials for my bike I finally got in 2013 I only considered steel and TI, I had so many steel bikes already so I decided to try something different and got TI instead, and I love it. I got the Lynskey Peloton, I see you got the Cooper...nice bike! I got the Peloton on a introductory sale, I originally was going to buy a Motobecane TI bike because I have friend who has one and it rode great but Bikes Direct was out of stock of them for almost 2 years so I got the Lynskey instead because it was the best deal price wise other than the Motobecane of any TI bike I found.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

just got back from the bicycle painter. hey only 7 hours round trip



and then I got the treat of doing the pantographs and decals tonight


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

BCSaltchucker said:


> just got back from the bicycle painter. hey only 7 hours round trip
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful!!!


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## wsriii (May 23, 2006)

BCSaltchucker said:


> just got back from the bicycle painter. hey only 7 hours round trip
> 
> 
> 
> and then I got the treat of doing the pantographs and decals tonight


Man, I remember those Battaglin frames, loved the look.


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## Chombi (Jun 23, 2012)

CrankyCarbon said:


> The old bikes are very nice to ride.
> I have a 1980 ALAN with the old Campy SR and a 1986 Tommaso but with more modern 1998 Campy 9 spd with DT shifters, in addition to my more modern bikes.
> 
> They all offer a different type of ride and various attributes. They're all fun to ride but technology has provided a significant gap in exact performance. Though, my ALAN is a 17lb bike.
> ...


Glad to hear from another ALAN fan!.....
As for me, I do not see any logic going for any modern bikes these days to repalce my C&V bikes, as I do not need the fastest bikes that might be 5-10 seconds faster per kilo than my own ALAN Carbonio,








I go for classic style and looks mainly these days and not ultimate performance
Now really, why the heck would I trade my baby for a modern bike that does not look even a half as good as my Carbonio....... Plus the bike and my other 80's bikes are certainly fast enough for me, and I suspect many other riders.....


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

What can I tell ya? At the moment I've got a trio of racing bicycles that stretch from a mid eighties Campy Nuovo Record equipped steel Somec to a plastic 2014 Bianchi Infinito with Campy Eleven (yes, the gearing is mechanical, not electric). Over the past several centuries (okay, 40 years), I've also had other bicycles pass in and out of my hands. They've been alu, CF and steel, including a Colnago Master. My verdict? The plastic Bianchi reigns as my all-time fave.


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

Chombi said:


> Glad to hear from another ALAN fan!.....
> As for me, I do not see any logic going for any modern bikes these days to repalce my C&V bikes, as I do not need the fastest bikes that might be 5-10 seconds faster per kilo than my own ALAN Carbonio,
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely exquisite !!. Love those ALANs
What is your Rear Derailluer? Deltas or Modolo brakes?

Here's mine. All Campy with full OMAS replacements (with the race tub wheelset (not shown), the shown wheelset is Clincher with a Hi-Lo - the Ti SR pedals are off, with some early Looks instead). 17lbs and an Original Avocet computer.
100 by stevesklar, on Flickr


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CrankyCarbon said:


> Absolutely exquisite !!. Love those ALANs
> What is your Rear Derailluer? Deltas or Modolo brakes?
> 
> Here's mine. All Campy with full OMAS replacements (with the race tub wheelset (not shown), the shown wheelset is Clincher with a Hi-Lo - the Ti SR pedals are off, with some early Looks instead). 17lbs and an Original Avocet computer.
> 100 by stevesklar, on Flickr


Those, and others like it, were the best looking carbon fiber bikes ever made, of course I like the looks of lugs so it is obviously an opinion. I also liked the Merlin Cielo: https://www.pedalroom.com/p/merlin-cielo-prettiest-bike-ever-1861_1.jpg I always wanted one of those but the price was just too much.


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

crossracer said:


> .... The one thing over the years I sold that I really hate I got rid of was a set of Superbe pro brakes. The brakes with the spring hidden
> In the arms. Those where so pretty.
> 
> Bill


Just read this. I used to have 1 copy of each manufacturers Pro brake calipers. The Suntours were my favorite too.
Enjoy the pic from 2001 when I sold them. I wish I kept them too.
View attachment 303369


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

froze said:


> Those, and others like it, were the best looking carbon fiber bikes ever made, of course I like the looks of lugs so it is obviously an opinion. I also liked the Merlin Cielo: https://www.pedalroom.com/p/merlin-cielo-prettiest-bike-ever-1861_1.jpg I always wanted one of those but the price was just too much.


This is not Carbon Fiber. I bought it from an old sponsor that retired back in '97. I told him decades ago if he ever sold it to sell it to me.
It was supposedly a 1982 (?) Alan Sprint model (screwed and glued) made for the Polish Olympic Team(? - or they used them too). All Aluminum, top tube squished, he put in a 1st gen Campy Ti BB too, it's just anodized from the factory.

edit: ALAN282 is the stamp .. so I guess 1982 it was made.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CrankyCarbon said:


> This is not Carbon Fiber. I bought it from an old sponsor that retired back in '97. I told him decades ago if he ever sold it to sell it to me.
> It was supposedly a 1982 (?) Alan Sprint model (screwed and glued) made for the Polish Olympic Team(? - or they used them too). All Aluminum, top tube squished, he put in a 1st gen Campy Ti BB too, it's just anodized from the factory.
> 
> edit: ALAN282 is the stamp .. so I guess 1982 it was made.


I liked those aluminum ones too. The pic showed black tubes so I assumed it was one of the CF jobs. I have a friend who has a Vitus with all aluminum tubes and lugs and he never rode it since he brought it home from the LBS back in late 80's or so, with Campy components. He never rode it because it was the third warranty replacement from Vitus in a 2 year period so he got a Klein instead. But he was too much for the Vitus and would break the BB area, anyway I told him to sell to me if he ever wanted to get rid of it, so far it's just sitting in his garage...and not mine!


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

Our women's team back then used Vituses and I know they had problems with those frames. Nice and light but so were the ALANs.

I was riding a Schwinn Superior back then and I only have the head badge left.
908 by stevesklar, on Flickr


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CrankyCarbon said:


> Our women's team back then used Vituses and I know they had problems with those frames. Nice and light but so were the ALANs.
> 
> I was riding a Schwinn Superior back then and I only have the head badge left.
> 908 by stevesklar, on Flickr


Too bad you have just the head badge left, those were really nice bikes.

Sean Kelly raced on those Vitus bikes and never had a failure with the frame, but my friend was a 224 pound body builder which was a bit much for a Vitus I guess.

There were a lot of that style of aluminum tubes with aluminium lugs made by all sorts of manufactures.

By the way Adrenalin Bikes still has a bunch of those Vitus NOS frames all the way to a size 56. something, and you can either have it equipped with modern components or get your own vintage stuff and do it yourself. Adrenaline Bikes


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

froze said:


> Too bad you have just the head badge left, those were really nice bikes.
> 
> Sean Kelly raced on those Vitus bikes and never had a failure with the frame, but my friend was a 224 pound body builder which was a bit much for a Vitus I guess.
> 
> ...


I still have my custom bike too ... which was never built. Yup, I have a bunch of lugs and a Columbus SLX tubeset sitting in the basement. But I still also have my set of TSD Guerciotti and Tomasso bikes from back then too. My road bike I upgraded to Campy 9spd DT '98 years ago so it's my semi-vintage bike 
150 by stevesklar, on Flickr


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CrankyCarbon said:


> I still have my custom bike too ... which was never built. Yup, I have a bunch of lugs and a Columbus SLX tubeset sitting in the basement. But I still also have my set of TSD Guerciotti and Tomasso bikes from back then too. My road bike I upgraded to Campy 9spd DT '98 years ago so it's my semi-vintage bike
> 150 by stevesklar, on Flickr


Sweet, it looks brand new, do you ever ride it?


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

froze said:


> Sweet, it looks brand new, do you ever ride it?


Nowadays I ride it from time to time but not often as it's #4 or 5 on the list.

It was my main race bike the last year in 87. I was the sprinter, so I'd stay out of the way of the positioning and stuff throughout the races. I think it was crashed only a few times. One time I recall it ended up probably 40 feet away as it was just launched off of me. Fun times.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CrankyCarbon said:


> Nowadays I ride it from time to time but not often as it's #4 or 5 on the list.
> 
> It was my main race bike the last year in 87. I was the sprinter, so I'd stay out of the way of the positioning and stuff throughout the races. I think it was crashed only a few times. One time I recall it ended up probably 40 feet away as it was just launched off of me. Fun times.


Sounds like you quit racing the same year I did, I too was a sprinter, like I was in track. I got lucky though and never had a crash in training or racing, and in amateur racing that takes some real luck.


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

froze said:


> Sounds like you quit racing the same year I did, I too was a sprinter, like I was in track. I got lucky though and never had a crash in training or racing, and in amateur racing that takes some real luck.


I love track. but I had one had high speed accident where I fell down the track and hurt my left hip on the concrete.
I had 2 track bikes, for some stupid reason I sold one of them 
Still have the other.
300 by stevesklar, on Flickr


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

CrankyCarbon said:


> I love track. but I had one had high speed accident where I fell down the track and hurt my left hip on the concrete.
> I had 2 track bikes, for some stupid reason I sold one of them
> Still have the other.
> 300 by stevesklar, on Flickr


Nice Bike, you have quite a collection, I'm always keeping my eye open for a vintage road bike with chrome stays and forks, so far nothing around where I live for the last 12 years!

When I said track I mean't running, sorry, I should have said track and field, but I loved seeing that track bike though. Cool, really cool bike.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

froze said:


> Too bad you have just the head badge left, those were really nice bikes.
> 
> *Sean Kelly raced on those Vitus bikes and never had a failure with the frame, but my friend was a 224 pound body builder which was a bit much for a Vitus I guess.*
> 
> ...


At the shop I worked for in Georgia we would sell the Vitus only to women and small guys. The frame was just too flexible for big men. They were gorgeous bikes but the frame were noodles.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

That Battaglin is just gorgeous. What was the original color?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bradkay said:


> At the shop I worked for in Georgia we would sell the Vitus only to women and small guys. The frame was just too flexible for big men. They were gorgeous bikes but the frame were noodles.


It's funny the noodle thing, Sean Kelly never seemed to care about it and won races in spite of it. 

I never got to ride the Vitus my friend has in storage but I tried to get him to get it out of storage, so I never got to experience riding one to see if they were noodly. I also tried to buy it from him but he didn't want to let it go even though he never rode it nor ever will.

The most noodly bike I ever rode was a Peugeot PX10, yup the famous PX10, the frame on those were just plain bad.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

rufus said:


> That Battaglin is just gorgeous. What was the original color?


before the Carerra treatment (and with hodge podge of 90s parts)



just got the vintage wheel set today, mounting some Conti tubs now and will ride her for the first time in years on Saturday if the rain eases up


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## CrankyCarbon (Dec 17, 2014)

froze said:


> It's funny the noodle thing, Sean Kelly never seemed to care about it and won races in spite of it.
> 
> I never got to ride the Vitus my friend has in storage but I tried to get him to get it out of storage, so I never got to experience riding one to see if they were noodly. I also tried to buy it from him but he didn't want to let it go even though he never rode it nor ever will.
> 
> The most noodly bike I ever rode was a Peugeot PX10, yup the famous PX10, the frame on those were just plain bad.


The ALAN I have I had to borrow it for a few races due to my bike being hospitalized back in the 80s ... anyways I found out back then that it too was a noodle. But I learned that when pushing hard you had to pull up at the same time pushing on the cranks in order to minimize the BB sway. And also to keep your body in a front to rear motion instead of side to side when tired. The side to side and only pushing down on the crank really caused that frame to twist all over the place and handling suffered. If you did the 2 techniques the frame was very nice and directed power just like any other bike. And it was a 49 !! I heard the bigger ones were far far worse probably like the Vituses.

The more I think back, the more crashes I recall.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

more or less finished now. going for a ride on her right now too! Ok with modern Look type pedals


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

BCSaltchucker said:


> more or less finished now. going for a ride on her right now too! Ok with modern Look type pedals


That is one sharp looking bike, great job!


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

You really need to find a silver stem for that.


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## Carpbum (Feb 10, 2015)

Gotta love the steel, just look at the well filed lugs, enjoy the smooth ride, and know that YOUR bike was made by a craftsman in a small shop with a 6-18 month back order; what wasn't to like? I've owned steel bikes from makers like Eisentraut, DiNucci, Medici, and Serotta, plus more mundane 531 frames from Schwinn, LeJeune, and Peugeot. I just wish I still had every one of them.

I don't remember any steel bike that ever scared me with the dreaded "high speed shimmy" on steep descents. I need a pretty tall frame, and shimmy is a common problem with modern bikes. Two of my carbon road bikes are a little "loose and scary" at higher speeds, but I have one that I will not ride over 50mph under any circumstances. 

On the other hand, my steel bikes were all so flexible in the bottom bracket that I was constantly fiddling to center the front derailleur to keep the chain from buzzing against it. I used to race crits in the 70's without a front derailleur, it was only in the way. The bottom brackets on my plastic bikes don't don't flex enough to buzz the cage, even when the front derailleur isn't close to being centered. That stiffness would certainly mean a more efficient transmission of power, wouldn't you think?


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

I second the comment about the silver stem, that ride is flawless otherwise. beautiful.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

rufus said:


> You really need to find a silver stem for that.


Hey thanks guys! This is a lot of fun restoring too.

I used to have a silver stem on her (Ritchey). But my restoration job on her was to make her as close to a Carrera team bike as reasonably possible (OK I cheaped out on several items). So I searched high and low to find this Cinelli 80s stem in black finish, new old stock. Similar to the black Cinelli stem on the actual Roche-Carrera bike used for the video in the first post of this thread.

Roche and his Battaglin

















there are a few more of these 'homage to Roche' bikes out there, like this one:
Battaglin gets official signature of approval from Mr Roche! | Retrobike


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

I see now. Very nice job, a bike after my own heart.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

I'm trying to work up the motivation to sell my 1976 Eisentraut Limited (everyday rider), so I will have space to hang up a new bike I'm waiting to build.


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## trumpetbiker (Oct 9, 2013)

rufus said:


> I see now. Very nice job, a bike after my own heart.


niiiiiiice. rides like that make your eyes bug out when you see them in person. wow.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

That Roche Battaglin is great and thanks for the link.

Stephen Roche is a classy guy.


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