# Help w/ Soloist Team harshness!



## DieselHybrid (Feb 12, 2007)

Hi folks,

I have been searching for an answer on these forums to no avail.

Here's my dilemma: I'm not getting any younger and my new '07 54cm aluminum Cervelo Soloist Team is beating me up. After a couple long rides I soon discovered that my Soloist Team was stiffer than some of the CAADs I had ridden in the past (when I was younger and could take the abuse).

I love the aero features and the out-of-saddle bb stiffness of my Soloist Team, but I'm definitely missing the silky smoothness of my last bike: '04 Merlin Agilis (great power transfer w/ 1" seatstays - yet still retained the plushness of Ti).

Here's my Soloist Team's set-up:
2007 Soloist Team + American Classic 420 clinchers, Vittoria Corsa EVO CX 700x23c tires @ 100-110psi, Ritchey Pro OS aluminum bar/stem, Selle Italia SLR Saddle, SRAM Force gruppo. 

btw- I'm 5'9" and weigh 175lbs.

My first attempt to smooth out the ride consisted of swapping out the stock Wolf CL fork for a Wolf SL (all carbon). This yielded a slight improvement in ride quality- but apparently not quite enough. 

So, now I am debating whether I should try and upgrade my wheels in hopes of taking the edge off or just cut my losses and possibly step up to a pricier Soloist Carbon, or an R3 frameset (or even an RS). (is there that much of a ride difference?) 

Would Zipp 404's (or similar aero carbon wheels) soften up my ride any?
I'love to sprint and have been looking for an excuse to finally get my hands on a set of aero wheels- but...

From my bike's specs you can see that I've invested a bit into it- so I am reluctant to part with it. However, I am equally reluctant to pour more money into a lost cause as well.

A new frame would set me back ~$2600 (or ~$2100 for an RS). A set of Zipp's ~$2200 (or similar). Which is money better spent towards easing up the harshness? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## SleeveleSS (Jun 3, 2007)

Have you tried lowering your tire pressure?


----------



## jcolley (Jul 11, 2007)

I have an SLC and if I recall, I think most people who have ridden the Soloist Team and then tried the SLC find it more harsh.

I also have a Bianchi Ti and there is a world of difference in the ride between the two. However, when I replaced the carbon seat post with a Thomson on my Bianchi, a lot of the difference in the road feel went away. It just goes to show how a small component change can make a large difference.

I am not really sure why I bought the SLC over the carbon Soloist, other than wow factor. It's beautiful and I love it, but for the money I could have saved on a regular carbon, I could have bought an extra wheelset for thrashing.

The problem with the Soloist's "aero-ness" is that the seat-tube locks you into their seatpost and I'm not crazy about that, but I can't really complain about how mine works after buying some carbon paste and the creaking noises are gone.

Perhaps a different set of tires and tubes first and maybe you can play with tire pressure? I don't have a vast range of experience for tires, but just switched to Conti Gatorskins on both bikes due to the crap winter weather in the PNW. I can tell a ride difference in them for sure. I have a set of 700x25s that I ride on occasionally when commuting (yes, insert trash-talking here, I actually commute to work on my SLC some days). The 25s make a big difference in ride as well.

At my size (5'7", 135 lbs), I can pretty much put the tire pressure wherever I want to soften things up, but don't really feel the need to yet; maybe in a few more years. I don't know if that's a good idea for anyone heavier though.

If I were out for a new frame right now, I would get and RS. It's supposed to be very smooth from the reviews I have read and seen. Besides, a little bike lust is always good, right?


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

You don't need new wheels, but new tires will definitely take the bite out of it. As has been suggested, 25c tires are the way to go. I've got those, and a Terry Fly gel saddle and find the ride quite pleasant, though I did for the first time today think, 'Hmmm, padding under the handlebar tape would be nice.' 

As a matter of course I lift for big bumps and avoid them when possible- that includes when riding on my full suspension mountain bike.


----------



## DieselHybrid (Feb 12, 2007)

Thanks for the inputs. I was really hoping someone here would have said: "Yes, by all means, the ultra-expensive Zipps not only make you faster, but they will tranform the harsh Soloist Team into a plush-riding rocket."

Will the Zipps soften the ride at all- or make it harsher?

L33 (as in L33 Solo by Blanik?)- do you have any recommendation for any 25mm clinchers? Perhaps I can double-wrap my OS aluminum bar? Would spending the extra $$$ on an OS carbon bar help?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

DieselHybrid said:


> Thanks for the inputs. I was really hoping someone here would have said: "Yes, by all means, the ultra-expensive Zipps not only make you faster, but they will tranform the harsh Soloist Team into a plush-riding rocket."
> 
> Will the Zipps soften the ride at all- or make it harsher?
> 
> ...


I have a Team Soloist with Zipp 404 tubulars. The ride is very stiff, somewhat harsh, so I wouldn't recommend it for anything but racing. I race, and I still race on Mavic Kyrsiums. No need to crash $1500 wheels. If you want a plusher ride, see if you can get a one position aero seatpost (My LBS was kind enough to take one off an unbuilt Soloist Carbon), and definitely don't use an SLR saddle. Try one with more padding or a gel padding. Btw, if anyone is interested, my bike is for sale, so email me if interested. That said the Soloist Team is still one of the best deals in road racing market.


----------



## sabre104 (Dec 14, 2006)

Any deep section wheel will give a harsher ride. You might want to try veloflex tires.

John


----------



## sabre104 (Dec 14, 2006)

I saw your post in the Trek forum also. Don't go to the dark side . Try the Cervelo R3 or RS 1st. You should be able to just swap out your components to the new frame. I think it would be cheaper than buying a totally new bike.Here's a pic of my R3


----------



## otoman (Mar 8, 2004)

I have ridden both Veloflex Pave/Black and Vittoria Evo CX's and the ride quality is very similar which makes sense given their construction. A switch to latex tubes might help you. I agree with the above: 25c tires (Michelin Pro Race comes to mind) with latex tubes at 95-100 psi should smooth things out considerably without dropping all sorts of bank on other components; Next, a handmade, three-cross wheelset with basic Mavic OP's or DT Swiss RR 1.1 rims could further smooth things out by allowing lower spoke tension then what your AC420's have. Also, consider your "contact points": a Selle Italia SLR saddle is pretty minimalist. Go with a slightly more padded saddle, thick pads in your bibs and/or gel padding under the bar tape (as with the Paris Roubaix riders).


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

DieselHybrid said:


> Thanks for the inputs. I was really hoping someone here would have said: "Yes, by all means, the ultra-expensive Zipps not only make you faster, but they will tranform the harsh Soloist Team into a plush-riding rocket."
> 
> Will the Zipps soften the ride at all- or make it harsher?
> 
> ...


L33 is from my car. In 1964 the L33 option on a Chevy Impala specified a 409 cubic inch engine, a single 4 barrel carb, and 4 speed manual transmission. 

I really don't think wheels will help much. Most of the cushioning will come from from the tires and saddle. I'm using Vittoria Diamante Pro Lights (great tires) but it will only be a matter of weeks before I have to switch to Armadillo Elites (good tires as long as you stay with the folding Elite version). I came across two mountain bikers coming off the hills Sunday with 4 flat tires between the two of them- it appears the puncturevine thorns are ripening and animals and careless cyclists will pull them onto the roads in numbers soon enough. Even though those tires are night and day different, the cushioning will be roughly the same (assuming I stay with 25c). It's air volume and pressure that most affects the perception of roughness. 

Double bar tape might help. You could also put Specialized Bar Phat under the tape, or get padded gloves.


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

Diesel- one more quick question. Did your Soloist come with a carbon seat post? All 07's should have, but I read somewhere about someone getting an aluminum post with theirs. The carbon posts provide a better ride.


----------



## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

I have a 2006 Soloist Team. I changed out the aluminum dual position seat post to a single position carbon post to save weight. In terms of comfort I couldn't tell a difference at all. 

700Cx25mm tires with latex tubes will yield you the greatest gain in comfort. In reality this is a stiff frame for maximum power transfer. You can't expect it to ride like a Ti or Steel frame. I think the soloist team frame is the stiffest aluminum frame bike on the market.


----------



## edorwart (Aug 9, 2007)

You did not metion if it was just your back side that was getting beat up. I found that when I switched from aluminum bars to carbon bars on my last bike that the ride was nicer. But that would only help if you are experiencing any discomfort in your arms / elbows / shoulders.


----------



## Kenacycle (May 28, 2006)

Sabre104, Which handlebars are you using?


----------



## sabre104 (Dec 14, 2006)

kdub said:


> Sabre104, Which handlebars are you using?


Zipp SL.....the weight came in at 168 grams +8 above advertised. They seem to be stiff enough, as I haven't felt them flex while sprinting.


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

Cheers! said:


> I have a 2006 Soloist Team. I changed out the aluminum dual position seat post to a single position carbon post to save weight. In terms of comfort I couldn't tell a difference at all.
> 
> 700Cx25mm tires with latex tubes will yield you the greatest gain in comfort. In reality this is a stiff frame for maximum power transfer. You can't expect it to ride like a Ti or Steel frame. I think the soloist team frame is the stiffest aluminum frame bike on the market.


Just curious- why recommend latex tubes? (If you want to start an argument here on RBR it seems all you have to do is suggest that latex makes you faster, but I've never seen the comfort factor mentioned before).


----------



## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

Tubular wheels do not soften a ride whatsoever. The ride becomes harsher and even moreso when they are very stiff like lightweights.


----------



## team_sheepshead (Jan 17, 2003)

I've been in your shoes. I raced and trained on a Soloist Team for most of 2007. Yep, it was sure stiff, but I found that as I got more fit through spring and summer, my body became accustomed to the "harsh" ride. I really think physical strength and flexibility have a lot to do with how "harsh" a bike feels. No offense, but you say you are getting older, so how is your fitness level? Make sure your core strength is really solid to take strain off your legs and lower back.

Also, one thing I did about 3/4 of the way through last season was get a premium bike fit. The fitter changed my position on the bike and I was quite comfortable. 

Don't think carbon (frame or wheels) will necessarily be "softer." I rode the Soloist Team on Flash-Point carbon hoops and those were felt as stiff or stiffer than any wheels I tried. Also, I rode a carbon Serotta during the winter of '06-'07 and that was by far the stiffest frame I've ever tried...as it is designed to be.

Try 25c tires and maybe some gel padding under the bars. But I really think fitness and bike fit are the keys. Good luck.


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

Trevor! said:


> Tubular wheels do not soften a ride whatsoever. The ride becomes harsher and even moreso when they are very stiff like lightweights.


In addition to the stiffness there's the air volume to consider. The air is the cushion. I thought most tubbies were around 20mm. As the the width of the tire goes up its air volume goes up considerably. The volume of a 25c is supposed to be double that of a 23c.


----------



## kervelo (Mar 19, 2007)

The 25 mm tires are not the only option. There are big differences in 23 mm tires as well: some are more comfortable than others. For example Michelin Pro Race 2 has a thing called ESC (extra supple casing) which makes a significant difference. I suppose the newer PR3 has also something similar.

A high quality gel saddle also helps: check out the Selle Italia Gel saddles, for example.


----------



## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

kervelo said:


> The 25 mm tires are not the only option. There are big differences in 23 mm tires as well: some are more comfortable than others. For example Michelin Pro Race 2 has a thing called ESC (extra supple casing) which makes a significant difference. I suppose the newer PR3 has also something similar.


I thought supple casings provided better traction. I guess they could have done something like the Specialized Roubaix tire- put a 23mm tread on a 25mm casing- the rolling resistance of a 23 combined with the air volume of the 25, because I have a feeling the old adage is true, "There's no replacement for displacement." I don't recommend the Roubaix tire. It is far and away the most difficult tire I've ever had to mount/dismount.


----------



## niteschaos (Apr 19, 2002)

I'd recommend going to a high-quality 25mm tire. I do a lot of time trials on chip-seal roads in Florida and rough roads around Atlanta and do very well. I've also seen measurements on rolling resistance and the difference between the 23mm and 25mm tire is less than the tolerance of the measurement device.

I ride a CAAD8 on Mavic Ksyriums (stock setup) with a SLR saddle. Running bigger tires at a lower pressure has been a better setup as the roads feel smoother and I have better confidence in high speed corners. Also, I don't feel like my tires are slowing me down when I'm in the breakaway, which is how I prefer to do a road race.

When I put on my Ultegra/Open Pro wheels and nice tires the ride is doubly smooth. I think you can get a 32-spoke box-section rim and some 25mm ProRaces for much less than a new carbon fork and cockpit setup.


----------



## galanz (Oct 28, 2004)

I'd recommend the 25c tires as well, it's about the cheapest place to start.
A professional bike fitting could help as well.
I have a Brooks Swift saddle on my Soloist and even though it's not broken in yet I've found it to be very comfy on my longest(5hrs) ride thus far this year.


----------



## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*High Spoke Count Wheels*

Try to borrow some good 32, even 36 spoke, wheels and try them. "Good" is the important word.


----------



## B-Rant (Nov 14, 2006)

The weight weenies will kill me for this, but I use a Specialized Phenom seat (mountain bike saddle) on my Soloist Team. I think it does a really good job of taking up some of the bumps. The guy at my LBS told me that lots of guys are using the Phenom as a road seat b/c it's so comfortable and more durable than the Toupe (specialized road saddle).


----------



## niteschaos (Apr 19, 2002)

Hey B-Rant,

I'd put money on it that getting a cushy saddle, thick cork bar tape, 25mm Pro Race2s, and some nice hand-built 32-spoke wheels with box-section (aka low profile) rims will COMPLETELY change the feeling of the bike.

Once you've changed the feel of everthing the rider touches, and the characteristics of what touches the ground, there isn't much else to do. Through personal experience I've found that changes in components that flex very little (bars, forks, even frame) lead to very little change in feel. 

Summary
1. Change to a high-quality 25mm tire and run it at 90-100 psig. $80.
2. Change to a softer/wider saddle. $100.
3. Change wheels to a light and hand-built 28-36 spoke configuration. $250.
4. Saving a fortune swapping out frames. Priceless.


----------



## mylesofsmyles (Mar 20, 2007)

I am unfamiliar with the ride quality of the Soloist team, however I'd imagine I can relate based off my experience with my CAAD9. When I first built my CAAD9, I opted for a Specialized Toupe Gel saddle, as I wanted a BG saddle and I figured the Toupe Gel would be more comfortable than the Toupe Team. I was pleasantly surprised to see just how smooth the ride was, though I still seek additional ride compliance. Since, I have exchanged my R550 wheels with Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX 23c tires for Industry Nine Ego wheels with Specialized S-Works Roubaix Open Tubular 23/25c tires and have upgraded to a Thomson Elite seatpost and aluminum Deda stem and handlebar. Again, my ride isn't harsh.

I found that the Roubaix Open Tubular tire was a prime upgrade for an aluminum frame. I have a 23c tread for minimized rolling resistance, however the high volume 25c casing to enhance compliance and ride quality; these tires work! I am going to wait until Specialized releases their Road Tubeless tire, however I think that could be the answer. Road Tubeless will allow me to ride between 85-100psi, without increasing rolling resistance...it has to be infinitely smoother. If I were to reconsider wheels, I may have chosen 32 spoke Chris King Classic hubs, DT Revolution spokes and DT RR1.1 rims...that would be a lot more compliant than my Industry Nine wheels, for sure!

Today, I ordered some Specialized Roubaix handlebar tape...I needed new tape and this stuff seems really comfortable. Aside from it's suede finish, it has a light gel membrane in the tape that has to add some level of vibration damping; we'll see. I am considering upgrading my fork to a Reynolds Ouzo Pro...I demand a stiffer fork, and the Reynolds fork is said to be very smooth for how stiff it is.

I think opting for carbon fiber rims will be a step in the wrong direction; usually, carbon fiber rims ride much stiffer than aluminum rims. I think you can effectively smoothen your ride by way of a new saddle and tires...try it out.


----------



## niteschaos (Apr 19, 2002)

Bigger tires run at lesser pressures. Softer saddles and controls. Then go to wheels, but as a last resort.


----------

