# Round 2: LBS > BD.com



## cjsiege (Dec 8, 2010)

After reading all the posts on my last thread (Which BikesDirect bike...) and scouring the internet for advice, I've decided to go with a bike from my LBS. I don't mean to call out BD.com at all and I don't have any problem with what they do. I just decided that I want the peace of mind of having support right down the street, especially for my first bike.

I visited one of my LBS today (not a big box store) and had a very good experience. I wasn't quite ready to buy (holding off until after christmas) but I wanted to figure out my size and see what they recommended on my budget (under $600 at this point). The LBS guy fitted me to a 56cm (though he said I might like a 54cm better depending on the bike). The weather sucks (pouring rain!) so I couldn't test-ride today, but they offered to let me as soon as the weather clears up. 

The two bikes suggested were the Trek 1.1 ($579) and the Marin Portofino ($499). The Marin has a carbon fork, and the 1.1 has an aluminum fork. The Trek has 2300 components while the Marin has Sora (not sure which is better -- still learning :blush2. 

I know a lot of this choice will come down to which one feels better on the road, and that's fine. I'm just looking for inputs from anyone who owns/has owned one of these, and who is more knowledgeable than I am, so that I can make a smart decision. 

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Kind of weak calling out BD in the title when this doesnt have much to do with them. Its not really a fire that needs to be fueled.. but moving on. Usually attracts more dead horse beating and biased comments than anything.

My fiancee has a 1.2.. the up spec'd model. Its got pretty junky components on it! I definitely wouldnt want that bike one bit cheaper, its about as low end as is usable. Its a nice bike though, rides well fit-wise, but thats very personal and subjective.

Sora is above the unnamed number series gear. Its also 9spd versus 8 (I personally have no problem with 8 what so ever, and actually prefer it to 9 or 10). 

If the marin fits you better, its a no brainer, go with it. If the trek fits you better, id save up a little for the 1.2, or look for a closeout (paid 720 out the door for my girlfriends).


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IMO you're making a smart move going with your LBS for a first bike. The sizing/ fitting assistance they offer along with the ability to test ride bikes of interest cannot be matched buying online. Those services (among others) are very important to noobs.

That said, Once sized/ fitted to both bikes, I suggest riding them back to back and out on the roads for some duration. Focus on fit/ feel, ride and handling. Even placement of shifters and shape of bars may influence how confident you feel on the bikes. 

Since this is your first road bike purchase, you may want to branch out some and check out other makes/ models. There's nothng wrong with these two choices, and in your price range the components will be pretty similar, but by test riding more bikes you'll be exposed to slightly different geometries/ riding positions and you may find that one stands out. And speaking of geometry, FWIW the Trek has slightly racier geo compared to the Marin, which will allow for a slightly more upright rider position. 

Good luck, enjoy the experience and keep us updated on your progress.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> IMO you're making a smart move going with your LBS for a first bike. The sizing/ fitting assistance they offer along with the ability to test ride bikes of interest cannot be matched buying online. Those services (among others) are very important to noobs.
> 
> That said, Once sized/ fitted to both bikes, I suggest riding them back to back and out on the roads for some duration. Focus on fit/ feel, ride and handling. Even placement of shifters and shape of bars may influence how confident you feel on the bikes.
> 
> ...



It is very interesting what different 'experts' will find important.
You feel sizing is all importatnt; OP says "The LBS guy fitted me to a 56cm (though he said I might like a 54cm better depending on the bike). "

And you feel these two choices are 'pretty similar'
I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT
A Carbon Fiber fork is so much better than an Aluminum fork that these two bikes should not even be considered in the same class. You will note that I think even a 4130 steel forks beats an Alumninum fork.

The long term pleasure in riding will be more effected in the case by the fork than weather OP gets a 54c or 56c IMO. And I will go further than that; OP should budget long term for a new fork if he goes with an Alumnium fork [which is easy enough install and he can get a good 4130 steel fork or CF fork for about $100 online or $200 in a shop]


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bikes Direct is better than every LBS on the planet and sells the best bikes in the world. Everything else is overpriced.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I hsv o say it. I gained a little bit more respect for Mik and BD with that post.

Also, keep your eyes out for closeouts. I just bought a Salsa because they were not moving.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> It is very interesting what different 'experts' will find important.
> You feel sizing is all importatnt; OP says "The LBS guy fitted me to a 56cm (though he said I might like a 54cm better depending on the bike). "
> 
> And you feel these two choices are 'pretty similar'
> ...


You are quite right, I do feel that sizing/ fit are all important. I also agree with the LBS guy offering that a 56 might fit in one model, while a 54 may fit better in another. There's nothing odd about that considering how geometries can vary between brands, and sometimes models. BD's offerings are no different, which points up a potential pitfall for noobs when buying online. 

As far as the bikes in question being similar, IMO they are. The biggest difference is that one has a more relaxed geo (Marin calls it Natural fit) while the Trek has a more race oriented geo. These differences point up the importance of test rides, because (as I suggested initially) they'll enable the OP to compare the two bikes back to back for fit, ride and handling. 

While I agree that a CF fork is preferred over alu (and probably on a par with steel as far as ride quality), _it alone _doesn't put the Marin in a different class, and ultimately it's the OP's call which to go with, if either. I say test ride, then decide.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

I think fit is more important than fork material.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Camilo said:


> I think fit is more important than fork material.



Maybe if fit is off by a huge amount; but 2cm on a bike sized as these do will not make nearly as much difference as having an Aluminim fork; IMO.

Of course, everyone has opinions and their own experiences. I do not spec CF off-road bikes nor Aluminum forks. And I could make more money by doing either or both. My decision is based on my experience; each cyclist must rely on their own judgement.

In my experience; cyclists with Aluminum forks who ride much soon start thinking of 4130 or CF forks. And as I said; it is an easy upgrade and cost can be low. But if you can get a 4130 or CF fork to start with; why not?


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I think its an assumption that the lbs even cares what size they stuff you on. If you base the whole lbs argument on the idea that they're going to fit you properly, you might quickly be let down. 

The buyer has a lot of personal responsibility to figure out what fits them when buying an entry level bike. It might not be "right", but thats the truth. If you've got a tape measure and 15 minutes or so, you can take your measurements and figure out where you should be fit wise. 

For a 600 dollar bike, the lbs isnt going to do a ton more than measure your inseam and compare it to a wall chart.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

TomH said:


> I think its an assumption that the lbs even cares what size they stuff you on. If you base the whole lbs argument on the idea that they're going to fit you properly, you might quickly be let down.
> 
> The buyer has a lot of personal responsibility to figure out what fits them when buying an entry level bike. It might not be "right", but thats the truth. If you've got a tape measure and 15 minutes or so, you can take your measurements and figure out where you should be fit wise.
> 
> For a 600 dollar bike, the lbs isnt going to do a ton more than measure your inseam and compare it to a wall chart.


Yes, yes.... we're all trying to screw customers and put them on bikes that don't fit them because that's what we have in stock. Even though I could get the correct size of bike in 1 day. Much better to put the customer on the wrong size and have him/her never come back. Yeah, that's the way most bike shops operate....


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## felix5150 (Mar 15, 2009)

TomH said:


> I think its an assumption that the lbs even cares what size they stuff you on. If you base the whole lbs argument on the idea that they're going to fit you properly, you might quickly be let down.
> 
> The buyer has a lot of personal responsibility to figure out what fits them when buying an entry level bike. It might not be "right", but thats the truth. If you've got a tape measure and 15 minutes or so, you can take your measurements and figure out where you should be fit wise.
> 
> For a 600 dollar bike, the lbs isnt going to do a ton more than measure your inseam and compare it to a wall chart.


Have to disagree. My LBS spent more than an hour sizing and fitting me to a $500 bike that I use for commuting and running errands. They went to the top of my list when I was shopping to upgrade my road bike and bought my tarmac pro from them.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

I didnt say it doesnt happen. You even made it a point to say that bumped them up a notch as its not something you can get everywhere. Thats really really abnormal for a bike shop. 

Out of 10 local shops, one both had a any clue what they were doing and attempted to fit me/my fiancee. The others either had no idea what they were doing (but tried), or just asked us only how tall we were and then pointed to a bike. This is a whole lot more normal than getting a hour fit for a 500 dollar bike.

Its not that they're trying to screw you.. its that the average bike shop employee has no idea what they're doing in terms of fit. People open specialty shops that do nothing but fit people.. and $200 bucks is a pretty normal charge for a real true fit. Its just asking a LOT to expect a great fit from any bike shop. You either gotta pay a pro, or do a lot of the footwork yourself.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'd rather have a nice tire, inflated to "my" pressure and an aluminum fork than a carbon fork and a cheap, over-inflated tire. For that aspect of ride comfort, I think the tire, and the wheel to a lesser extent, are much more important.

Honestly, I'm not even sure I could tell the difference between an aluminum and a carbon fork if they had the same front wheel and good-quality tire at "my" pressure. Sometimes I think I the carbon fork takes the edge off things a little, but I already know my nicer bike has a carbon fork, and that it should.

My harshest-riding fork is steel.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'd rather have a nice tire, inflated to "my" pressure and an aluminum fork than a carbon fork and a cheap, over-inflated tire. For that aspect of ride comfort, I think the tire, and the wheel to a lesser extent, are much more important.
> 
> Honestly, I'm not even sure I could tell the difference between an aluminum and a carbon fork if they had the same front wheel and good-quality tire at "my" pressure. Sometimes I think I the carbon fork takes the edge off things a little, but I already know my nicer bike has a carbon fork, and that it should.
> 
> My harshest-riding fork is steel.



It is not exactly fair to compare ride of forks based on varing tire type & pressure.

And if you have a harsh riding steel fork; something is is different there too. High Grade 4130 forks should ride as smoothly as a nice CF fork. It is easy to note that most nice touring bikes have high grade steel forks; Trek, Fuji, Motobecane, Windsor, Waterford, Jamis, Surly, etc use 4130 forks. If you flip thru about 100 pictures on http://www.fullyloadedtouring.com/ you will see a trend in fork selection. 

Fork has a big effect on ride; and for most people way more impact than weather their dealer put them on a 54, 55, or 56 cm bike. During the boom in touring [which I use as the standard for cyclists that require long term comfort] most bikes came 17", 19", 21", 
23", and 25". So it was 5cm between sizes: so basiclly you could pick say a 53c or 58c. We sold thousands of bikes to people that went cross country and were very happy and comfortable: even though their size under some 'theory' was 55.75cm and they got a 58c.

Size is a personal prefference; and different shops will size the same exact cyclist as different sizes on the exact same bike. This is a know fact. And material & design of fork has a huge impact on bike performance chactertistics. This is also a know fact.

Some shops would put me on a 50cm bike.
Most would advise me to get a 52cm bike.
I size myself on a 54cm [and I certainly am as qualified to size myself as any shop]
BUT I would prefer to ride a 56c or 52c with a CF fork or 4130 fork; than any size bike with an aluminum fork.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> Yes, yes.... we're all trying to screw customers and put them on bikes that don't fit them because that's what we have in stock. Even though I could get the correct size of bike in 1 day. Much better to put the customer on the wrong size and have him/her never come back. Yeah, that's the way most bike shops operate....


Many bike shops will be hesitant to order that bike if they feel they can unload the one they have in stock- especially at that price-point. Other than the obvious shipping costs they'll likely have to eat, they'll also lose a good deal of their profit margin on that bike if does not sell within the model year and is discounted- but of course you already knew that.

I've found very few bike shops around the country that will swap stems and other components at little to no cost to get a fit dialed in for bikes under $2000, although they are out there. More often I get the:
"How tall are you?"
"What's your pants inseam?"
"Here, sit on this spring-loaded seatpost."
"You look about like a..."
"Ride around the parking lot a couple times and tell me what you think."​Any of those would get you in the ballpark, but I would not consider any of them any more valid that what BikesDirect or an other online seller would do via email or over the phone. 

Some shops will spend more time with you based on workload in helping you pick the right size and make sure the saddle is adjusted properly. You can be reasonably sure that the shifting will be dialed in and that the components will be properly installed. Which I think is probably the biggest advantage your average LBS has service-wise (again, at that price point).

I'm a big fan of my local LBSs, and I try to send as much business their way as I can afford. I do a lot of my own wrenching, but I also defer to their expertise to fine-tune things. They're also there when I completely screw things up through ignorance or over-confidence. It's an incredible resource, and I do my best to keep them in business.

I don't believe anyone is trying to "screw customers", local or online. Different business models have different strengths and weaknesses. It's up to the consumer to explore the various options and decide what's best for them.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

you're whole line of reasoning is very flawed.

So you would rather have a bike that doesn't fit then an aluminum fork. Great. That's like saying you'd rather get punched in the arm rather than the face. Anyone who had the customers best interest in mind would probably say that both suck.

And you're very right that fit is personal preference. I'm not sure how you reconcile that with fitting over the internet/phone being on par with being able to actually sit on and ride a bike.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Hank Stamper said:


> you're whole line of reasoning is very flawed.
> 
> So you would rather have a bike that doesn't fit then an aluminum fork. Great. That's like saying you'd rather get punched in the arm rather than the face. Anyone who had the customers best interest in mind would probably say that both suck.
> 
> And you're very right that fit is personal preference. I'm not sure how you reconcile that with fitting over the internet/phone being on par with being able to actually sit on and ride a bike.


I made it clear that is my personal choice: I perfer 2cm off my 'target' size to an AL fork.
Some cyclists are very senstitive to 'sizing'.
Most riders are not that sensitive and I am not very sensititive to size; I perfer a 54c in a traditional road frame but can be happy on a 52 or 56 -- and much happier than I have ever been on a bike with an aluminum fork.

The question of taking advise from others [weather online or in a shop] on sizing is very complicated and gets into the motivations of the 'sizer' and the philosophy of the 'sizer' and the sensitivity of the cyclist being 'fitted'. Luckily, most riders are not that hard to make comfortable size wise.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> It is not exactly fair to compare ride of forks based on varing tire type & pressure.


I'm not comparing the rides of the forks. I'm comparing the difference in ride between different kinds of fork and between different tires and tire pressures. And if it's not fair to compare different forks with different tires, I think you actually reinforce my point - that the tire is more important. By how much? I have my opinion, you have yours, and neither of us is going to change the mind of the other.

I think the OP is going to go back to his shop and test-ride his two candidate bikes on a nicer day. If he can tell the difference between forks, maybe that will make his decision. If he can tell the difference between fits, that will make his decision. I think that the best return on money spent on a bike is on places where the rider touches the bike or the bike touches the road. The fork is neither.

FWIW, I'd consider a BD bike myself, if I wanted to replace one of my current ones.

EDIT: I glanced at the specs for both bikes. It's only the rear derailleur on the Portofino that's Sora. Everything else is 2300. So you can pretty much compare the bikes on ride alone - don't worry about the components on one vs. the other.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

bikesdirect said:
 

> Maybe if fit is off by a huge amount; but 2cm on a bike sized as these do will not make nearly as much difference as having an Aluminim fork; IMO.
> 
> Of course, everyone has opinions and their own experiences. I do not spec CF off-road bikes nor Aluminum forks. And I could make more money by doing either or both. My decision is based on my experience; each cyclist must rely on their own judgement.
> 
> In my experience; cyclists with Aluminum forks who ride much soon start thinking of 4130 or CF forks. And as I said; it is an easy upgrade and cost can be low. But if you can get a 4130 or CF fork to start with; why not?


I don't understand the venting about aluminum forks. When introduced, aluminum forks were hailed as a step forward both in weight AND ride over harsher steel forks. In fact, most aluminum forks defect in a similar manner to carbon forks in lab tests.

Aluminum is fine for forks. It is not as expensive a fork as carbon or, currently, steel. But they ride reasonably well and are light. If I was on a budget I'd certainly wouldn't rule them out.


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## TreeKiller (Sep 3, 2007)

I realize it may push your budget up a few hundred dollars, but I was riding a Trek 1000 (same a the 1.1 but a few years older) and the aluminum fork makes for a very harsh ride. I have a Specialized Allez now and it is worlds smoother. I'm not saying that's what you should buy, but having recently test rode a number of mid-entry level bikes, I'd look at pushing my budget up to the $1,000 range. Check out the Specialized Secteur & Cannondale Synapse Alloy. Both are very smooth and can be had for $900-$1300 depending on which version you'd like. I'd also say it's worth spending a few more $$$ for Tiagra or 105 components. Sora & 2300 work fine, but being able to shift from the drops helps more than I thought.


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## |3iker (Jan 12, 2010)

Look for end of season sale OP! I still see some 2009 stock in huge discounts. But sizes will be limited to what's in the inventory.


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## Lou3000 (Aug 25, 2010)

One, yes, first time buyers are probably better off at a LBS.

Two, go with the Marin, I've never ridden it, but if you are trying to get the most bike for the money, I'm pretty sure Trek is never that bike.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

My buddy sells Marin. I am impressed with their build for te price. Jamis too.


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## My Own Private Idaho (Aug 14, 2007)

2300 basically the same as Sora. just so you know. Good stuff. My kids have Sora on their bikes. Its tough, easy to maintain, and it just works. It may not be as smooth and slick as Dura-Ace, but it gets the job done. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my own bike, except I have Ultegra now. If I had it to do over again, and if my bike were a different style, I wouldn't hesitate to use Sora on my commuter.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> Yes, yes.... we're all trying to screw customers and put them on bikes that don't fit them because that's what we have in stock. Even though I could get the correct size of bike in 1 day. Much better to put the customer on the wrong size and have him/her never come back. Yeah, that's the way most bike shops operate....


I absolutely refuse to sell a bike that doesn't fit - even a "closeout" that we're dying to get rid of.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

TomH said:


> I didnt say it doesnt happen. You even made it a point to say that bumped them up a notch as its not something you can get everywhere. Thats really really abnormal for a bike shop.
> 
> Out of 10 local shops, one both had a any clue what they were doing and attempted to fit me/my fiancee. The others either had no idea what they were doing (but tried), or just asked us only how tall we were and then pointed to a bike. This is a whole lot more normal than getting a hour fit for a 500 dollar bike.
> 
> Its not that they're trying to screw you.. its that the average bike shop employee has no idea what they're doing in terms of fit. People open specialty shops that do nothing but fit people.. and $200 bucks is a pretty normal charge for a real true fit. Its just asking a LOT to expect a great fit from any bike shop. You either gotta pay a pro, or do a lot of the footwork yourself.


+1. I couldn't agree more. Those shops aree out there that will fit you on a less expensive bike, but they are few and far between. Iknow too many riders who had to get a proper fitting after they were "fitted" on their new entry and mid level bikes.


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

To the OP, I would rethink the decision not to buy online, or even used for that matter. You can simply get so much more bike for your money that it may be worth it in the long (and short) run. 
The simple fact is that most good (Marin and Trek both qualify) bikes simply won't need warranty work in most cases. Basic maintenance is very easy to learn, and truly a vital skill if you are going to be riding far from home. Knowing how to adjust your brakes, tune your drivetrain, or replace a chain may be the difference between riding or walking home. 

If you have issues with your bikesdirect.com bike, you will still have the support of your LBS, but the most likely scenario is that your issues will be something other than warranty issues.

I am not saying don't support your LBS. I buy clothing, helmets, accessories from my LBS (I would assume they make more margin on those items anyway) and will continue to do so. But I have no desire to pay 75% more for a bike for the warranty. If something breaks I will use the money I saved to upgrade the part, instead of replacing it.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

LBS's support all people who have $...doesn't matter where you bought the bike. It’s a business, not a commune. I bought a bike for my wife from BD and found their service to be excellent – easy 5 out of 5 stars. I like the bike too. I did tons of research and learning because I find it fun so I felt OK, even excited to get the BD bike for her.

I'm now in the mkt for myself and considering all options (ebay, LBS, BD, CL, etc.). I sway between options all the time but am leaning towards a LBS. Still looking for a satisfying one though. I am leaning towards LBS because I can ride the bike (as opposed to on line) and have a certain measure of its reliability (as opposed to used). I’ve test ridden enough bikes to know that I need to feel it before I buy it. Last bike I test rode was in the $1,500 range – not much bike to most people here, but a lot to me. I thought it would feel amazing and was excited to ride it. Nope…didn’t like it. So, how can I get a bike I’ve never ridden? I know it’s probably a bad idea for me to get a bike I haven’t tried out, but I guess it’s a great idea for some. I must admit, every time I go to the BD website (or others – look at Neuvation – SRAM Apex, nice wheels, just over 1k!), my mouth waters and I feel a bit like a sucker paying LBS prices. And, I again re-hash the argument in my head – is a test ride really worth twice as much as a BD bike? Depends on how much I intend to ride I guess.

Wish a BD brick and mortar store was in New England (or New York) so I could take one for a test ride. 

Hey BD guy…any plans in the next few months?


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## |3iker (Jan 12, 2010)

My Own Private Idaho said:


> 2300 basically the same as Sora. just so you know. Good stuff. My kids have Sora on their bikes. Its tough, easy to maintain, and it just works. It may not be as smooth and slick as Dura-Ace, but it gets the job done. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my own bike, except I have Ultegra now. If I had it to do over again, and if my bike were a different style, I wouldn't hesitate to use *Sora *on my commuter.



My commuter has Sora shifters and RD. My non-biking friends thought it was Dora edition from Shimano.  Works fine.


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