# Help Determining Spoke Length



## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Greetings,

I've recently ordered a pair of H Plus Son Archetype Rims, with an ERD of 595mm (according to their web site).

I intend to lace them to a pair of Circus Monkey HDW2 32 hole disc hubs, specs for which are here for front and here for rear.

I'd like to do 3 cross using some sturdy-but-light spokes (DT or Sapim).

This will be my first wheel build, and I'd appreciate any help deciphering the required spoke length for this hub/wheel combination.

Thanks!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

digita6 said:


> Greetings,
> I've recently ordered a pair of H Plus Son Archetype Rims, with an ERD of 595mm (according to their web site).
> I intend to lace them to a pair of Circus Monkey HDW2 32 hole disc hubs, specs for which are here for front and here for rear.
> I'd like to do 3 cross using some sturdy-but-light spokes (DT or Sapim).
> This will be my first wheel build, and I'd appreciate any help deciphering the required spoke length for this hub/wheel combination.


You must do this yourself. If you trust the job to others and they are wrong then you suffer, not them.

Don't even trust makers' sites. They've been wrong before.

Read my wheelbuilding info plus Roger Musson's spoke calculator page. 

Spoke length calculator for calculating spokelengths

It shows you how to measure ERD and hubs and his calculator works fine. As he says, if it didn't he'd fix it as he wrote it. While you're at it, order his fine wheelbuilding e-book.

This job is part of wheelbuilding and you need to learn and master it too.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks, that is very valuable information. I'll search out his eboook and do the measuring myself. I was thinking that I could have the spokes in hand by the time the hubs arrive, but clearly I should first make all the measurements.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

The link MikeT provided is the spoke calculator I use too. While the hub drawings you linked to are probably accurate, it is best to check them against the hubs you actually receive. Since you can pull all the data you need from those drawings and you have the ERD from the H Son site (which you can also check on the Bike Hub Store site as they have the rim too), you could go ahead and put all the data into the Munson site as a "practice run" and save or print the results. 

Then, when you get the actual rims and hubs take your actual measurements for the hub dimensions and ERD for the rims and see how the results compare. Follow his recommendations about cross patterns to use too as he gives suggestions which I have found to be very helpful.


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## vinceflynow (Jan 31, 2012)

I just had a set of Kinlin XR19W built up with hubs from BHS. In fact, I got all the parts from BHS. Even though I knew I should have measured everything myself, I wanted to order everything at once. So I used the measurements from the BHS webpage, with Musson's Spoke calculator and everything came out fine. Basically, I'm saying is that measurements from BHS are trustworthy.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

That has been my experience with BHS provided dimensions too and I suspect, that the drawings of the Circus Monkey hubs are accurate too. However, if the OP wants to be sure, best to measure the actual hubs he will be using and compare his measurements to the drawings.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

The book by Roger Musson is an excellent resource. I just picked it up and started reading. Thanks for that suggestion.

I am going to just wait until the hubs arrive and make my own measurements. I'm using less expensive hubs/rims and a higher spoke count than I usually might since I consider this a kind of "practice" run at building a reliable wheelset.

Thanks for all the input.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

digita6 said:


> I'm using less expensive hubs/rims and a higher spoke count than I usually might since I consider this a kind of "practice" run at building a reliable wheelset.


This is an excellent way to start down the path of wheelbuilding.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> You must do this yourself. If you trust the job to others and they are wrong then you suffer, not them.
> 
> Don't even trust makers' sites. They've been wrong before.
> 
> ...


Wow, I didn't know about Roger Musson's spoke calculator. Very usefull. Thanks!


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## bmgmd (Aug 16, 2013)

+1 for BHS'/brandon's measurements, Musson's ebook and online calculator and Mike T's webpage.


I am in the middle of my build with the xr19w, race, 24/28, 2x/3x. Pre-build weight without tape or QRs was 1446g.


It will be my wheel upgrade from the Shimano RS-10s that came stock on my bike.


I am new to this forum and new to cycling (only 1 year).


This forum has been an invaluable source for my research!


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

After receiving rims and hubs, and measuring the dimensions myself, I found that the rims varied from the 595 listed by manufacturer (came in at 592 and 593 mm as measured using the Musson method and averaging several points around rim).

Spoke lengths that I came up with are:
Front: Left: 288.6, Right: 286.7
Rear: Left 286.8, Right 285.4

I've noticed that DT Compeition spokes that I'm considering using generally come in 2mm even increments. Would I round these numbers up or down to achieve the correct length?

Thanks!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

digita6 said:


> After receiving rims and hubs, and measuring the dimensions myself, I found that the rims varied from the 595 listed by manufacturer (came in at 592 and 593 mm as measured using the Musson method and averaging several points around rim).
> 
> Spoke lengths that I came up with are:
> Front: Left: 288.6, Right: 286.7
> ...


Round them up or down to the closest even number within 1mm from the calculated value.
Front: L 288, R 286
Rear: L 286, R 286

Edit to add: if you plan using DT nipples longer than 12mm don't forget to adjust for the spoke length. Musson's calculator doesn't adjust automatically.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks, dcgriz, that makes it easy--most of them are 286!

I plan on using brass nipples all around. I *think* that 14mm is standard, but I noted that DT swiss nipples seem to come in only 12 and 16mm. Am I incorrect? (I guess this is my long-winded way of asking which spoke nipple length I should use).

On a side note, the H Plus Son rims are very pretty in black anodized form, and both came in at exactly 450 grams.

Thanks Again!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

It looks like we were posting at the same time. See my edit.
I believe DTs come in 12, 14 and 16.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

For the Archetype I would use 12s unless you want the taller nipples for a visual effect.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

dcgriz said:


> It looks like we were posting at the same time. See my edit.
> I believe DTs come in 12, 14 and 16.


Indeed we were. Thanks for this info, now I have all I need (I think). I'm even building the truing stand from the Musson book out of some MDF that I had lying around in the garage!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Great! It's a good feeling when you ride the wheels you made yourself!


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

One more question. Are thread sizes on nipples uniform? If I use a 1.8/1.6 double butted spoke is the nipple same as for a 2.0/1.8?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

digita6 said:


> One more question. Are thread sizes on nipples uniform? If I use a 1.8/1.6 double butted spoke is the nipple same as for a 2.0/1.8?


Nope. There are 14 gauge and 15 gauge (1.8mm) and 14 gauge (2.0mm) nipples - in 2-3 lengths.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

I found the answer in the new (6th) edition of Roger Musson's book. Looks like there are 1.8mm nipples for the 1.8/1.6mm DT Comp spokes.

Edit: Mike and I must have been posting at the same time. Thanks, Mike!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

digita6 said:


> I found the answer in the new (6th) edition of Roger Musson's book. Looks like there are 1.8mm nipples for the 1.8/1.6mm DT Comp spokes.
> Edit: Mike and I must have been posting at the same time. Thanks, Mike!


Yes, Roger's new version (6) came out two days ago. An excellent resource.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Don't forget to order a few extra spokes and nipples in case something breaks in the future...... cheap insurance. I've done that with every set I've built and, so far, have not had to use any of them. You can label them by length, but I usually mark the package with the hub and rim, front vs. rear, info for each set of wheels I've built. 

Have fun with your first wheel build.


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