# Buying a bike online: Not worth it with exorbitant Hawaii shipping costs?



## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

*Buying a bike online: Not worth it?*

Hi everyone, so after about a year of cycling, I am already starting to feel the itch of upgraditis taking hold. I already must have spent at least $900 this month on bikes! Half of that alone was just for one wheelset! :blush2: (Easton EA90 Aero closeout on P-Bike)

Anyway, I know I really should stop spending at this point and save up for a bigger upgrade later on. Mainly I am thinking of upgrading from my Alu Giant Defy 2 with Tiagra to a carbon frame with Ultegra or up. Budget will be set at around $2,000, but I prefer to spend less than that if I can get away with it. I think with such a big upgrade to carbon on my mind and a relatively small budget in regards to carbon (a lot of carbon bikes here don't even start at $2,000!), I would be better off buying online.

The only problem with the online route is shipping costs. I live in Hawaii, so we get reamed extra hard for oversize shipping items like bikes. Bikesdirect is especially bad with this ($150 to get here!), which is a shame, since a lot of their bikes seem to be great deals. Would it be worth it to grit teeth through the shipping cost and order through them regardless? I.e. would Bikesdirect still be a good value even with $150 shipping cost tacked on to the asking price? I'm not too familiar with other online bike stores.. shipping from Performance is $51, while JensonUSA is $60.

Here are some of the bikes I am looking at from Bikesdirect:
Road Bikes, Titanium Frame SRAM Rival Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Ti Heat | Butted and multi-shaped titanium tubing with High modulus carbon fiber fork
Road Bikes, Titanium Frame Shimano Ultegra Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Ti | Butted and multi-shaped titanium tubing with High modulus carbon fiber fork
Shimano Ultegra 6700 Carbon fiber Road Bikes, Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Immortal Force
Ultegra Road Bikes | Carbon Fiber | Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Immortal Ice

As you might notice, I threw in a couple of Ti bikes in there. I am not completely dead set on getting a carbon frame; I have great interest in trying out a titanium frame too. From what I've read, Ti is one of the top tier frame materials out there, with the stiffness of carbon while retaining the cushy feel and durability of steel. Another thing I am interested in trying out is SRAM. What is the SRAM equivalent of Ultegra, anyway? I think that's Force, right? Well, regardless, I think I will be doing a few test rides on some Ti/SRAM bikes I can find at the LBSs here just to give me an idea of what to expect.

Finally, since I'm posting in the Beginner's Corner (still very much a beginner after one year :aureola I know I am going to be getting a bunch of "But fit first is important over price!" Yeah, I've read that line a lot the first time I came here a year ago, but I think one year of riding has given me a solid idea of how my bike fits; which is pretty well actually, now that I've finally gotten a fitting recently (just another small part of the $900 bike fund blown this month ) I'm sure I could simply pull out and compare geometry charts and get the size that most matches the geo of my current Giant Defy 2, no?
Defy 2 (2011) - Bikes | Giant Bicycles | United States


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## RJP Diver (Jul 2, 2010)

13thcyclist said:


> I'm sure I could simply pull out and compare geometry charts and get the size that most matches the geo of my current Giant Defy 2, no?


That's a definite "possibly" in my book.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Since I agree with your "fit over price" comment, I'll start at the end of your post and work to the front.

Assuming your current bike really does fit well, your logic is sound for comparing bike geo of interest with it. Because (presumably) you don't understand what those numbers represent and how deviations may affect your fit, there are potential pitfalls, but you could always post here and ask for assistance. And speaking of assistance, you'll likely need your LBS's, but more on that later.... 

Sizing/ fit concerns aside, next comes frame materials. Judging from your comments, I think you're placing too much importance on the materials themselves and generalizing a bit too much. For example, both a CF or Ti frame can be designed/ manufactured to ride like a rock, or flex like bamboo. What dictates the ride characteristics is in the design/ execution, not just materials. Even a bikes geo can affect not only handling, but ride. All this given, you may want to rethink just why you're looking to go with a certain frame material, because there are inherent differences between them.

Before getting to the buying online arguments, I'll offer that (IMO) 'upgrading' from your current bike to a CF/ Ti Ultegra/ force equipped bike might get you better aesthetics, another gear and a little less weight, but it's likely to have little effect on your performance. So, depending on what you're looking for this next bike to do, some things to consider re: cost/ benefit.

Lastly, while I agree that having a current (well fitting) bike to compare geo of online bikes to takes away one of the biggest risks of buying online, it doesn't negate the others. For example, assuming you aren't doing your own wrenching, you'll not only pay the $150 more for delivery, you'll also be tapping your LBS for final assembly, tuning, fit assistance and any subsequent issues you'll have with the bike. Assuming the LBS will charge for these services (which they're certainly entitled to do) adding the $150 to that financial outlay will tend to equalize the cost of buying from your LBS. So again, some things to consider.


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I bought a couple bikes second hand off ebay and the shipping charges were around $100 each time, so $150 doesn't sound too bad for a bike to go out to Hawaii. I thought y'all out there on the islands are already used to paying more for everything anyhow? 

Obviously, the greatest concern would be making sure you don't buy a bike you can't ever get set up to fit comfortable on.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Thanks for the responses all. PJ352's especially, helpful as always. I forgot to mention I am not really planning on upgrading in the immediate future or any time soon really.. maybe like half a year to a year down the line? Cause I definitely don't have $2,000 sitting in the bank right now, 'specially after spending $900 on bike upgrades last month. I just want to get my research done early so I will know definitively what to get when the time comes.

PJ352's comments on the upgrade 'not really being an upgrade' has me reevaluating why I want to upgrade in the first place, aside from the 'Shiny!' aspect of it. Well, after riding Alu for a year and then riding this old steel bike I bought recently, I am reminded why so many people think Alu is 'harsh.' On roads where the buzz is enough to numb you to the elbows on my Alu, I hardly notice how bad it is on the steel bike. I guess I just want a bike that gives that road-smoothing feel of steel without the weight, which either carbon or Ti should do well, right?

Regarding the fit part, the things I've changed out on the two fittings I got for my current Defy 2 were: 
1) Narrower bars. The stock 44cm bars were way too wide for me and caused lots of neck & shoulder pain; as soon as I switched out to 40cm (I'm tall & skinny.. that bar width just about matched my shoulder width) everything felt immediately better in the neck & shoulder department
2) Shorter stem. The original 120mm stem made me feel too stretched out aka often sliding forward on the seat later in a ride, neck pain from straining to look up, etc. That was swapped out with a 100mm stem, which was also flipped upward. I think it should be of note that I still have 4 spacers under the stem as well, so I think I like a more upright position?
3) Seat fore-aft adjustments. Mostly pushed back a little bit to get KOPS and alleviate some of the weight I've been feeling in my hands which led to numbness if I didn't wear gloves.

Those are the only major changes I can remember from the two fittings I did. Aside from those, the bike is pretty much stock for the fit-wise components. So assuming I will have to change out the stem & handlebars (which I probably will since the bigger sizes have longer stems/wider bars for some reason), I am spending maybe another $30-40 for the stem and then $30-40 again for the bars? That's about $80 max on top of the $150 shipping cost, so I'm looking at an additional $230 tacked on to the asking price.

Of course, that doesn't count any other issues I might have with fit or the mechanical workings of the bike. I know that bikes have a break-in period where the shifting, etc need adjustment due to cable stretch after a few months. I had the LBS do the free tuneup for that on my first bike, but I'm sure I could easily learn how to make those adjustments myself. If I can't, well, the LBS I go to often does those adjustments for free if you tell them exactly what needs to be adjusted instead of saying, "hey, tune up this bike for me, it's acting funny"

And then there's the fitting. The two places I've been to offer fittings at $35, not counting any new parts they have to install. So assuming worst case scenario where I have to get a fitting and the expensive end of the bars & stem replacement, I am looking at $35 + $80 + $150 = $265 on top of list price for Bikesdirect. Does that still seem like a good deal for their bikes regardless?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

13thcyclist said:


> Thanks for the responses all. PJ352's especially, helpful as always. I forgot to mention I am not really planning on upgrading in the immediate future or any time soon really.. maybe like half a year to a year down the line? Cause I definitely don't have $2,000 sitting in the bank right now, 'specially after spending $900 on bike upgrades last month. I just want to get my research done early so I will know definitively what to get when the time comes.
> 
> PJ352's comments on the upgrade 'not really being an upgrade' has me reevaluating why I want to upgrade in the first place, aside from the 'Shiny!' aspect of it. Well, after riding Alu for a year and then riding this old steel bike I bought recently, I am reminded why so many people think Alu is 'harsh.' On roads where the buzz is enough to numb you to the elbows on my Alu, I hardly notice how bad it is on the steel bike. I guess I just want a bike that gives that road-smoothing feel of steel without the weight, which either carbon or Ti should do well, right?
> 
> ...


IMO even if you aren't planning on making a purchase for the next 6 - 12 months, you're wise to start researching/ garnering opinions/ narrowing choices now so that when the times comes, you'll have a clear plan.

Linking a couple of your fit related comments with your Alu/ harsh comments, generally speaking and IME, I think your focusing on Ti and CF is a good start, but I'd add steel to the list. Good ride quality, durable and (in your price range) any weight penalty isn't going to be meaningful/ discernible. Remember though, that if a comfortable ride is the goal, more enters into this than frame materials alone. Geometry, wheelsets, tire construction/ size, PSI (among other factors) can contribute to ride quality.

Your #2 above makes mention of a flipped up stem and 4 spacers, with a question re: preferring a more upright position. Given that the stem is flipped up, it's fairly safe to assume the answer is yes, but not knowing the size of the spacers, a better measurement would be saddle to bar drop. We're talking in general terms here, but if the bars are about level with or slightly lower than the saddle, they'll allow for a more upright position. Lower than that (~5+ cm's) gets a rider in a somewhat more aggressive position, depending on just what the + is. I suggest measuring your saddle to bar drop along with head tube length, because that info (along with other geo numbers) will help you narrow the field later on. 

As far as the cost benefits of buying online, you know your LBS and I don't, but I think you're low balling your potential costs. For example, you didn't add anything in for final assembly, so assuming the shop is going to perform the service, there will likely be a charge. Also, while it's true that after a couple of hundred miles as cables 'bed in' it's sometimes necessary to make minor adjustments, that won't suffice in the case of a misaligned FD (as one example), so there may be additional costs.

In summary, all things considered, I think if you're willing to pay the associated costs of buying online, it's a viable alternative for you. Probably the biggest factor is that you (presumably) have a well fitting bike that can be used as a baseline for comparison when determining a frame size, and resources available to assemble, tune and tweak fit on the new bike. All that leaves is your honing in on just what bike that might be, but that's 1/2 the fun! :thumbsup:


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

One low cost suggestion if you feel your aluminum bike is harsh right now. If you're running 23 mm tires on it but 25 mm tires will fit (not all frames will have enough clearance but I'm betting a Giant Defy probably will), try a higher quality 25 mm tire so you can run lower pressure and get better ride quality.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

If you can get them to ship the wheels separately, it might work out better for shipping. The frame might fit in a USPS size box and parcel post and even priority mail might be half of that $150. Even with a separate box for the wheels, it might still save you significantly.

Just a thought.

But $150 for a complete bike to HI doesn't make me choke; sounds "high, but not ridiculous".


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Hey, sorry for the late reply, but I am still in the market for a bike upgrade later this year. I think I am pretty set on getting myself a Ti frame, specifically the Le Champion Ti from BD because I don't think you can find any Ti frame that gets any cheaper while still maintaining similar quality levels.

I have read that some heavier/powerful riders can flex these Ti frames; but I'm pretty sure that I won't have to worry about that if I'm more of a lightweight climber guy (~128 lbs here) who intends to ride long distances and not do much racing, right? But if I do get the itch to race later on, will Ti still do just as fine as CF? Mostly, I want to go with Ti because it is a frame material built to last, and I want this to be as close to a 'final' upgrade as possible; I just don't want to be 'upgrading' again in the next few years just because my CF frame cracked/got outdated/got melted into a puddle after being left out in the sun .

Unless someone can convince me to save up another $600-800 for the Dura Ace or RED equipped models, I'm pretty much set on this model with Ultegra for $1999, because I read some bad things about the Cane Creek brakes with the cheaper models. If only the cheaper Rival model @ $1595 weren't completely sold out, I would have pretty much settled for that since it has full Rival on everything (no cheaping out on crank, brakes, etc), and I always wanted to try a SRAM bike out. By the way, does anyone know how long it takes for Bikesdirect to restock after a bike goes Out of Stock? A good lot of those bikes I am looking at are at Low Stock right now and I have a feeling everything will be Out of Stock when I finally do have the cash :mad2:.

For the fit problem, I have compared the geo charts between my Giant and the Le Champion Ti, I believe a 56cm Le Champion would work best for me. For my Giant Defy 2, I am put on a size L or 55.5cm. The top tubes look to be about the same length (57.5 cm for the Giant; 57.2 cm for the Moto), and I read that TT length is far more important than seat tube/standover height. 

Only things I'm concerned about are the smaller headtube on the Moto (16.5cm vs 20.5cm Giant) and the head & seat tube angles (73deg for both on Moto vs 72.5deg head/72 seat on Giant). On the headtube issue, that just means I have to run more spacers, right? But I'm not too sure about the significance of the head & seat tube angle differences and what that would affect. The chain stay is also longer on the Giant (42 cm) vs the Moto (40.5 cm). Again, not too sure about what that would affect. Also, the Giant has a longer wheelbase (100.8 cm) compared to the Moto (99.5 cm). I believe that would mean the Moto has a little bit more sharper/twitchier handling than the Giant?

So in general, I think the slightly longer measurements for the Giant just means that it has more of an 'endurance'/'comfort' geo, right? If so, I think the Le Champion Ti with its ever so slightly shorter measurements would be a bit of a welcome surprise from this upright position I've been using for a while; yet not too much of a difference to be very noticeable. Do you guys think the 56cm Moto would be a good fit for me? (I still, amazing, have not exactly measured my inseam or even my height yet, but I know for sure that the Giant fits me perfectly right now)


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

How much are you saving by buying this bike online? 

I think you're DRASTICALLY under estimating the costs you'll incur during the build/fit process as well. 

If you buy that locally you can have it fit to you and ride it BEFORE you buy it. Imagine how bad it would suck to pay that shipping, pay the build up fee, etc...just to find it you don't like it? 

$80 for handlebars and a stem? I midst be getting ripped off! On my last bike I doesn't ~$375 (after a discount!) on an Easton EA70 stem, Easton EC70 Aero bars, handlebar tape and installation. 

If you buy local they will likely swap it the stem and bars while getting you fit and do it no charge...just trade component for component. I know the last "off the shelf" bike I bought they did that for me. 

Additionally, paying to have the bike built won't be cheap. Here a bike build is $150. 

Imagine if it's damaged in shipping and had to be sent back? These "free" little adjustments your local shop does for you will probably stop the day you take that bike in and tell you bought it online because you saved a free hundred bucks. 

Know what your getting support your local economy and local bike shop and buy it there.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

13thcyclist said:


> *For the fit problem*, I have compared the geo charts between my Giant and the Le Champion Ti, I believe a 56cm Le Champion would work best for me. For my Giant Defy 2, I am put on a size L or 55.5cm. The top tubes look to be about the same length (57.5 cm for the Giant; 57.2 cm for the Moto), and *I read that TT length is far more important than seat tube/standover height. *
> 
> *Only things I'm concerned about are the smaller headtube on the Moto *(16.5cm vs 20.5cm Giant) and the head & seat tube angles (73deg for both on Moto vs 72.5deg head/72 seat on Giant). On the headtube issue, that just means I have to run more spacers, right? But I'm not too sure about the significance of the head & seat tube angle differences and what that would affect. The chain stay is also longer on the Giant (42 cm) vs the Moto (40.5 cm). Again, not too sure about what that would affect. Also, the Giant has a longer wheelbase (100.8 cm) compared to the Moto (99.5 cm). I believe that would mean the Moto has a little bit more sharper/twitchier handling than the Giant?
> 
> So in general, I think the slightly longer measurements for the Giant just means that it has more of an 'endurance'/'comfort' geo, right? If so, I think the Le Champion Ti with its ever so slightly shorter measurements would be a bit of a welcome surprise from this upright position I've been using for a while; yet not too much of a difference to be very noticeable. *Do you guys think the 56cm Moto would be a good fit for me? *(I still, amazing, have not exactly measured my inseam or even my height yet, but I know for sure that the Giant fits me perfectly right now)


I'm going to focus on the part of this post that I see as potentially causing you some real problems if you go with the Motobecane.

If you refer back to an earlier post, you mentioned using a 100mm stem flipped up with (presumably) close to 40mm's of spacers. The '40' being a guess, because you just mentioned four. That aside, if you look at the head tube lengths of the Giant versus the Moto, you'll see that (as you noted) in the size that comes closest to meeting your reach requirements (56cm), you're losing 4cm's of head tube length. 

Given the setup on your Giant, and since the Moto's fork steerer is pre-cut and will only accommodate ~40mm's of spacers, I think you're going to have to resort to a fairly steep stem angle to make up that difference - not an ideal compromise, IMO and an indicator that this bikes geo may not be right for you. 

The other geo differences you noted are very minor by comparison, so I suggest going back and re-reading my previous post responding to your #2, because those comments tie into this HTL issue. As I suggested, measure your current saddle to bar drop. If you'd like some feedback/ advice, update this thread and we'll estimate what you'll end up with for a stem angle/ spacer setup on the Moto, but my first impression is that it isn't going to be your ideal geo.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Ok, so I measured the saddle to bar drop, and it's +- 2cm. Mind you, it probably wasn't very accurate because I measured using a tailor's tape and I had to prop the bike against something (I measured top of saddle to floor and top of bars to floor then subtracted those values) I also finally measured my inseam and height, and they are 34.5" and 5'11" (always thought I was at least 6' this whole time :blush2 Along with that, I moved one spacer on top of the stem of my Giant since I feel I am in the drops a lot these days, so now I have about ~3.7cm of spacers under the stem (all of the spacers are different heights for some reason)



Cyclin Dan said:


> How much are you saving by buying this bike online?
> 
> I think you're DRASTICALLY under estimating the costs you'll incur during the build/fit process as well.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I really don't intend on using carbon bars or expensive stems, because what's the point? You're only saving a few grams for quite a few more dollars. I just get some reasonably cheap Al bars (~$40) and Al stem (another ~$40). Also, I have stated I am pretty much set on a Ti bike, and none of the shops here on my little island of Oahu offer any Ti bikes.. unless they order it but then why do that when I can order for myself from BD (and for a lot cheaper too, since I still have not found any other cheaper complete Ti bike elsewhere)

Seems a lot of people assume I can't assemble a bike myself. Uh, I am, in fact, willing to learn how to do that, you know? Besides, I've researched heavily into threads about BD bikes and the most people had to do to assemble were simple things like putting the handlebars on, putting the wheels on, etc which I know how to do already. If the derailleurs, etc need adjustment, I got Zinn's Book and the Park Tools site right here to help me.


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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

Hopefully it all works out for you. FYI...I don't run carbon bars because of weight. They help absorb the chatter from the road...and it can molded in to shapes much more comfortable tl hold than aluminum can. Also, wait until your handlebars snap in half during a sprint and you wipe out terribly. That happened to me. I don't skimp on handlebars.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Cyclin Dan said:


> ... wait until your handlebars snap in half during a sprint and you wipe out terribly. That happened to me. I don't skimp on handlebars.


IME, I've seen/ read of more CF bar failures than alloy, probably due in part to incorrect installation, so IMO that's not a valid reason to go CF. As always, YMMV.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

13thcyclist said:


> Ok, so I measured the saddle to bar drop, and it's +- 2cm. Mind you, it probably wasn't very accurate because I measured using a tailor's tape and I had to prop the bike against something (I measured top of saddle to floor and top of bars to floor then subtracted those values) I also finally measured my inseam and height, and they are 34.5" and 5'11" (always thought I was at least 6' this whole time :blush2 Along with that, I moved one spacer on top of the stem of my Giant since I feel I am in the drops a lot these days, so now I have about ~3.7cm of spacers under the stem (all of the spacers are different heights for some reason)


While it's good to know ones cycling inseam, given that your Giant meets your saddle height requirements and the Moto is close in the applicable measurements (seat tube and stand over) and similar holds true for reach, as I've mentioned, I'm more concerned with differences in HTL/ bar drop.

You've provided good info above re: your drop/ spacer setup, but one key element we'd need to make correct comparisons is your current stem _angle_. Apologies if I neglected to mention that earlier, but if you could provide that, it would be very helpful.

Until we get your stem angle, making an assumption that you're now running 35mm's of spacers and a fairly standard 7 degree (flipped up) stem, I'm estimating that the Moto will need a 110mm, +17 degree stem and 40mm's of spacers. Even at that, you'll be adding a little over 1cm of drop, so something to consider. The reason for the change to a 110mm stem length is because the higher the bars are set, the closer reach, due to HT angle.

All that said, this scenario only applies if your current stem angle is about 7 degrees (_and_ that I calculated correctly. )

Other options to get the bars higher would likely include using adjustable stems or shims, but IMO that's getting into those 'unnecessary compromises' that might indicate a bikes geo isn't ideal for a given rider.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Just checked out the stem, and it's an 8 degree stem. Also attached a pic below to show what the setup looks like now. But even if the drop will be significantly lower on the Moto, I think once enough time has passed and I finally saved up enough money, I should have grown the flexibility to go lower. Right now, I have my stem flipped up and all those spacers because I was just getting back into riding after about a ~3 month break due to shitty rainy weather (yep, even in Hawaii, winter sucks!)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

13thcyclist said:


> Just checked out the stem, and *it's an 8 degree stem*. Also attached a pic below to show what the setup looks like now. But even if the drop will be significantly lower on the Moto, I think once enough time has passed and I finally saved up enough money, I should have grown the flexibility to go lower. Right now, I have my stem flipped up and all those spacers because I was just getting back into riding after about a ~3 month break due to shitty rainy weather (yep, even in Hawaii, winter sucks!)


With the 8 degree stem and what appears to be a 37.5mm spacer stack, I was probably off on my earlier estimate by about 5mm's. So instead of the Moto's setup (as I described) being just over 1cm lower, it'll be closer to 1.5-2cm's lower. 

Whether your assessment that you'll gain enough flexibility to tolerate the added drop is correct, will IMO/E depend on just where that drop is in relation to your acceptable range. By that I mean, given the relatively narrow range (usually measured in mm's) in key fit parameters most of us have, if ~4cm's of drop is well outside your tolerable range, you'll likely suffer fit issues. Conversely, if it's within your range, you'll likely be ok with that set up.

Keep in mind that even with this scenario, you'll be running max spacers and a 110mm/ +17 degree stem. Literally, it's an acceptable set up, but personally I'd look for geo that would suite me with a more moderate stem angle.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2012)

> Unless someone can convince me to save up another $600-800 for the Dura Ace or RED equipped models, I'm pretty much set on this model with Ultegra for $1999, because I read some bad things about the Cane Creek brakes with the cheaper models. If only the cheaper Rival model @ $1595 weren't completely sold out, I would have pretty much settled for that since it has full Rival on everything (no cheaping out on crank, brakes, etc), and I always wanted to try a SRAM bike out. By the way, does anyone know how long it takes for Bikesdirect to restock after a bike goes Out of Stock? A good lot of those bikes I am looking at are at Low Stock right now and I have a feeling everything will be Out of Stock when I finally do have the cash .


Have you seen the SRAM force model for $100 more? It's actually not listed under the Titanium section for some reason, but under the SRAM category.

I personally like the SRAM shift levers ergonomics a lot more than Shimano -- particularly how the brake lever reach is adjustable, and the shifter levers pivot so you can grab onto them with an index finger and shift easily while riding on the bar-tops (climbing) or down in the drops (descending). 

Looks like the biggest difference I can tell between the bikes (besides SRAM/Shimano) is both have 11-28 cassettes, but the SRAM bike comes with a compact 50-34 instead of a standard 53-39 crank. 

IMO the 53-11 is overkill for almost everyone as a top gear. 50/11 is basically the same as 53/12 and is a much more sensible top end. I'm not sure if you looked into what gearing you have on your current bike but I would if I were you. What are your highest/lowest gear combos and how often do you use them? Do you have a cycle computer that measures what cadence you usually ride at? I'd try to find this out then look at gear-calculator.com which allows you to put in your preferred cadence, and gear choices and it will give you the corresponding speeds in each gear. 

You can see how the gearing in the BD bikes will compare to what you currently have.



PJ352 said:


> With the 8 degree stem and what appears to be a 37.5mm spacer stack, I was probably off on my earlier estimate by about 5mm's. So instead of the Moto's setup (as I described) being just over 1cm lower, it'll be closer to 1.5-2cm's lower.
> 
> Whether your assessment that you'll gain enough flexibility to tolerate the added drop is correct, will IMO/E depend on just where that drop is in relation to your acceptable range. By that I mean, given the relatively narrow range (usually measured in mm's) in key fit parameters most of us have, if ~4cm's of drop is well outside your tolerable range, you'll likely suffer fit issues. Conversely, if it's within your range, you'll likely be ok with that set up..


Another thing to consider when talking about saddle-bar drop and stems etc is exactly what kind of handelbars are being used? Some bars have more reach than others. Some bars have a lot more drop than others. If the OP has standard or deep-drop handlebars presently, a move to a compact handlebar with less difference between the hoods/drops position might be a way to make a lower handlebar setup work. 

I currently have two bikes -- a steel singlespeed cyclocross rig I use for around-town commuting, and a carbon fiber road bike. The distance between my saddle position and the lowest position in the drops is the same on both bikes. On the roadbike though I have more saddle-bar drop and compact bars, whereas on the singlespeed I have deep drop bars with more spacers, which produces more exaggerated differences between the different riding positions (drops, hoods, bar-tops).

When riding for sport, I like to be in a fairly aggressive position the whole time, whereas riding in town I spend a lot more time riding in an upright position but like to still have the option to getting down really low in the drops to deal with a headwind or something.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

PhotonFreak said:


> Have you seen the SRAM force model for $100 more? It's actually not listed under the Titanium section for some reason, but under the SRAM category.....
> 
> 
> Looks like the biggest difference I can tell between the bikes (besides SRAM/Shimano) is both have 11-28 cassettes, *but the SRAM bike comes with a compact 50-34 instead of a standard 53-39 crank. *


You know, I.. totally overlooked the gearing aspect. Also, I did not notice there was a Ti Force model, too. Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway, I think I will skip out on the Ultegra model in that case. My Giant is currently a compact 50/34 with 12-25 in the back. I have some mean hills where I ride, so a standard double aka the Ultegra Ti is out of the question.

As far as the handlebars, I actually bought them used (which is why I am probably underestimating the cost of new handlebars). It's a 40 cm Al Bontrager bar with ergo drops. I am not sure how deep the drops are, but they seem to be deeper than the original 44 cm compact bars which did not fit me.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

PhotonFreak said:


> Another thing to consider when talking about saddle-bar drop and stems etc is exactly what kind of handelbars are being used? Some bars have more reach than others. Some bars have a lot more drop than others. If the OP has standard or deep-drop handlebars presently, a move to a compact handlebar with less difference between the hoods/drops position might be a way to make a lower handlebar setup work.
> 
> I currently have two bikes -- a steel singlespeed cyclocross rig I use for around-town commuting, and a carbon fiber road bike. The distance between my saddle position and the lowest position in the drops is the same on both bikes. On the roadbike though I have more saddle-bar drop and compact bars, whereas on the singlespeed I have deep drop bars with more spacers, which produces more exaggerated differences between the different riding positions (drops, hoods, bar-tops).
> 
> When riding for sport, I like to be in a fairly aggressive position the whole time, whereas riding in town I spend a lot more time riding in an upright position but like to still have the option to getting down really low in the drops to deal with a headwind or something.


Given the OP's 'drop' situation , I agree that shallow reach/ drop bars are certainly a consideration, but I'd temper my enthusiasm as to just how much they'd help. 

I think it depends on a number of factors, among them; his current bar setup and where he most frequently positions his hands. If he's like most riders, seldom riding in the drops, shallow drop is of little benefit. Reach not really being an issue here, short reach doesn't buy much. Lastly, no matter what bar is installed, (top) bar height remains pretty much static, so no gain there.

All that said, I do agree that this is something the OP should consider, based on his style of riding.

'Groupset' preferences being highly subjective, I'll sidestep that debate and simply say 'ride, then decide', but good points made re: considering fitness/ terrain when choosing gearing.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Thanks for the fit input guys. So, in summary, the only problem I have with the Moto geo is the shorter head tube, yeah? Everything else for the size 56cm Moto looks nearly identical to my size L 55.5cm Giant. As much as I really hate neck pain (which is partly why I prefer a more upright position), I think I just need to rebuild my cycling base after the long winter break. Hopefully by summer, which is when I think I will have saved up enough, the stem on my Giant will be flipped and slammed down all the way into the headtube ! Ok, maybe a bit ambitious there, but hopefully I can get it flipped down at least with minimal spacers so it don't look like no old fogie's bike .

Also, I emailed BD themselves for their opinion on my fit issue. Hopefully they won't tell me to go one size lower, because I hear for some reason the Ti frames run big? I already have another bike with a too small frame that's why (a size 54cm straight TT 80s Novara) and it's a literal pain in the neck to ride for longer than an hour. But if the BD guys themselves say the frame can work for me, then I'm pretty much set on the Road Bikes, Titanium Frame SRAM Rival Roadbikes - 2011 Motobecane Le Champion Ti Heat | Butted and multi-shaped titanium tubing with High modulus carbon fiber fork! Only thing I really don't care for are the gaudy red MOTOBECANE and Le Champion decals. And I may have to deal with them too, because apparently your warranty becomes void if you remove the decals. Oh well, I'm going to be riding the damn thing, not staring at it!

And to keep with the spirit of the original thread title/concern, assuming I have to swap out components for fit, I am looking at $150 (shipping) + $40 (stem) + $40 (bars) + ~$100-200 (saddle, cause apparently these stock BD saddles suck ass) + $35 (fitting) + ~$50 (random adjustments the LBS may have to make.. remember I am totally willing to do my own wrenching, and I have 2 other bikes to experiment on!) = *$515 total*, on top of the price of the bike itself. I'd say that's not bad at all, considering the price of a Litespeed frame (and this is only just the frame itself!) is twice as much as the complete Le Champion Ti bike from BD! And that total is assuming the worst, and I'd have to change out every single one of those components, so the extraneous costs may be even less :thumbsup:.

EDIT: Probably a little random & OT, but I was looking through my user gallery, and found this thread http://forums.roadbikereview.com/be...tween-sub-$1000-entry-level-bikes-240027.html I made a year ago when I first became a roadie. Uncanny how PJ352 predicted the future so accurately a year ago!



PJ352 said:


> I agree. IMO the 'biggest' difference between Tiagra and 105 is an added cog - 9 spd versus 10, and IME the 'real world' difference isn't that great. Beyond that, the differences are in finish and weight. Both groups are durable and function well when set up correctly.
> 
> Assuming the Defy fits well, I vote to stay with the lower priced bike for now. *Anyone telling you to spring for 105 to avoid 'upgraditis' is just plain BS'ing you. If you stick with cycling, inevitably you WILL upgrade to that 'next' bike*, and before that you'll be looking to *upgrade your OEM wheelset.*


Upgrade OEM wheelset to Easton EA90 Aero? Check. Upgrade again to a Ti bike? Also check.. soon (tm)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

It's safe to say I've offered all I can re: the fit issues I see with the Moto. To answer your question, as I see it, the potential stumbling block to a good fit on the 56cm Moto is the HTL (or lack thereof) when compared to your Giants HTL and stem/ spacer set up. From what you've offered re: the Novara, I think there's a lesson to be learned, so I would proceed accordingly - and not base a decision on BD's feedback.

Re: my prediction, it was merely a statement that probably represents ~80% of cyclists who stick with this for any length of time. Some upgrade sooner rather than later, but most do ultimately upgrade. So a prophet, I am not.


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

Hey man, I live out here too and I feel your pain! See you've got a lot input from guys who know a lot more about size and fit then I do. I personally won't buy a bike with out sizing it up myself. The last two I bought, I was on the mainland, and few back with them. Checking a bike box was $60 I think. (of course finding a bike box is another issue) Have you checked craigslist, that's my recommendation. My buddy has been shopping around and there's a handful of 56cm bikes listed- I don't know your budget, but there's a few really good deals on used bikes... anyways. I haven't found a bike shop I'm comfortable with out here- and many frustrating and infuriating experiences with multiple shops around the island - I've learned to do all my own wrenching over the last few years. Parktools, Sheldon Brown, YouTube, Zinn, RBR all have good guidance to setting up your own ride. Good luck to you!


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

A bit of a bump here.



rose.johnp said:


> Hey man, I live out here too and I feel your pain! See you've got a lot input from guys who know a lot more about size and fit then I do. I personally won't buy a bike with out sizing it up myself. The last two I bought, I was on the mainland, and few back with them. Checking a bike box was $60 I think. (of course finding a bike box is another issue) Have you checked craigslist, that's my recommendation. My buddy has been shopping around and there's a handful of 56cm bikes listed- I don't know your budget, but there's a few really good deals on used bikes... anyways. I haven't found a bike shop I'm comfortable with out here- and many frustrating and infuriating experiences with multiple shops around the island - I've learned to do all my own wrenching over the last few years. Parktools, Sheldon Brown, YouTube, Zinn, RBR all have good guidance to setting up your own ride. Good luck to you!


Wow man ever heard of the 'enter' key? . Anyway, trust me I've looked at used and it just isn't any good on this small rock of a state. It's either overpriced crap, or overpriced better crap. Either way, I'd probably get my money's worth buying online, since I even have the aptitude now I think to tackle a bike build and its problems.

Speaking of buying online, I think my plan to buy a Ti bike is pushed off. As you all may know, I crashed recently (if not, ctrl+f Crashed! in General). My fault completely, so I may be hearing from the car owner soon :cryin:. I am just trying to save my money at this point to prepare for that, but it's hard when you have to keep spending on repairs upon repairs that you missed last repair .

So, assuming I am going to make the Ti bike a _loooong term_ goal (like, a few years or decade from now long), I think I am going to do a sort of 'step-grade' here; that is, buy a moderately upgraded bike, but of a different 'grade'. What I mean is, buying a better specced mtn bike, TT bike, or something along those lines. Definitely not another road bike, cause I have enough of that stuff already with 2! (yes, even with n+1 )

I am leaning toward the TT bike, because mtn really doesn't seem to interest me that much. Of course, it doesn't help that I haven't even tried serious mtn biking yet (when I had a mtn bike before, I just rode it on the road, hence getting a road bike now.) Esp now that I tried my first TT, I think I may be addicted to beating the time, and just getting faster in general.

Of course, this will be an online buy from BD, unless someone can convince me otherwise. I am thinking one of the cheaper Kestrel models, or the Motobecanes.
**Triathlon and Sprint-Tri Bicycles from bikesdirect.com
*Save up to 60% off Triathlon Bikes - Motobecane 2011 Nemesis
*Save up to 60% off Triathlon Bikes - Motobecane 2011 Nemesis PRO
*Shimano 105 equipped Triathlon Bikes, Tri Bikes - 2011 Kestrel Talon Triathlon Tri Bikes

Buying a TT bike is, obviously, going to introduce a whole load of new fit problems. Like the shorter reach, or shorter TTs, et al. What should I be aware of when comparing road geo to TT geo? Should I just buy a TT bike local (they get preettty expensive here..)? Should I just get a Tri/TT fitting here (go local economy! )?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

13thcyclist said:


> Buying a TT bike is, obviously, going to introduce a whole load of new fit problems. Like the shorter reach, or shorter TTs, et al. What should I be aware of when comparing road geo to TT geo? Should I just buy a TT bike local (they get preettty expensive here..)? Should I just get a Tri/TT fitting here (go local economy! )?


Given your financial situation, and until you're fairly certain that TT'ing is going to represent an appreciable amount of your road riding, I'd advise against purchasing such a specific use bike. 

Rather, keeping investment to a minimum, spring for aero bars and fit them (and you) to one of your existing road bikes. Since this will be a retro-fit, it's not going to exactly emulate a TT bike in position or handling, but (similar to the lower end Dawes) it'll serve the purpose. 

To answer your fit related questions, a TT bike moves the rider forward and low, so chainstays, effective top tube and head tubes are shorter, and seat tube angle is steeper. Fork rake is lower and trail is higher, resulting in slightly slower (more predictable) steering. 

As with any bike purchase and given the financial investment, a fitting (from a knowledgeable fitter) is highly recommended.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> Given your financial situation, and until you're fairly certain that TT'ing is going to represent an appreciable amount of your road riding, I'd advise against purchasing such a specific use bike.
> 
> Rather, keeping investment to a minimum, spring for aero bars and fit them (and you) to one of your existing road bikes. Since this will be a retro-fit, it's not going to exactly emulate a TT bike in position or handling, but (similar to the lower end Dawes) it'll serve the purpose.
> 
> ...


To be honest PJ, I want this new bike just for change for change's sake. Like I said, I already have 2 road bikes, so I am getting just a tiny bit worn on the roadie scene (_not quitting_ any time soon, of course!) I have tested out a TT bike once before, and it was a crazy high end Cannondale from the shop I bought my Giant from. Just from that one ride alone, and the fact that I saw many, _many_, *many*, many rolleyes people passing me on that TT who were on TT bikes, makes me now want a TT bike :blush2:.

Anyway, I think I will get quotes from the tri shops in the area for a fitting. Hopefully they won't be pissed at me buying online. I will be going to them for mechanical, training, and further fit help, of course. Local economy isn't going to tank _that way_ at least .

As for aerobars, I really hate the look of clip-on aerobars. Just looks so unnatural on a road bike. Besides, I can somewhat emulate them on my own by doing the 'prayer stance' aero bars aka 'invisible' ones aka 'you're going to crash soon you idiot' aero bars. 

And yeah, that TT just made me realize the need for speed! I want a bike that I can train on to _go fast_, and I think a TT bike is perfect for that since you'll be automagically faster anyway on the aero bars.


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

TT in Hawaii is joke - unless you're doing an actual race. I was riding back from Hawaii Kia today - and pull 4 TT guys behind me. The roads/shoulders (and traffic) are so bad out here- TT bikes don't give you much of an advantage unless the road is closed off. On a TT - hammer hammer hammer... stop for the stop sign/turn. Hawaii just doesn't have the roads.

IMO- invest in an MTB- much safer (off the road) and better way to see more of the island. I love riding the road - but sometimes it's just more stressful (bad roads x bad drivers x rain x same boring routes week after week) But getting off the road-- spices things up! Works for me anyways.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

rose.johnp said:


> TT in Hawaii is joke - unless you're doing an actual race. I was riding back from Hawaii Kia today - and pull 4 TT guys behind me. The roads/shoulders (and traffic) are so bad out here- TT bikes don't give you much of an advantage unless the road is closed off. On a TT - hammer hammer hammer... stop for the stop sign/turn. Hawaii just doesn't have the roads.
> 
> IMO- invest in an MTB- much safer (off the road) and better way to see more of the island. I love riding the road - but sometimes it's just more stressful (bad roads x bad drivers x rain x same boring routes week after week) But getting off the road-- spices things up! Works for me anyways.


Okay, so that's one endorsement for MTB. Yeah, it sounds like fun now that you explain it that way :thumbsup:. Plenty of new stuff to be discovered in the MTB scene too, so it's like starting road cycling all over again but in the mtns. And cheaper too, huh; a good bike can start at less than $1k, right?

So you were out today? There was the Castle to Hanauma TT today if you weren't aware. That's why there were a bunch of funny looking guys in weird kit :lol:. Hey, if you saw a 12-year old looking kid in a ToC Rabobank jersey with grey leg warmers and white arm warmers on a Giant Defy 2, you just saw me! You were probably one of the guys that passed me on the return back to Kailua :cryin:.


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

I rode - didn't do the race though.


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## 13thcyclist (Jan 23, 2011)

Hey again, sorry to dredge up this dinosaur once more, but here's a _third_ bike to throw into the mix (first being that Moto LeChamp Ti, second Kestrel Talon Tri, now this.. [if you can't tell already, I am _pretty_ indecisive {I also love using parentheses (also smilies :crazy}]): Save up to 60% off new Shimano Ultegra Di2 Electronic shifting Road Bikes, Roadbikes - Motobecane Le Champion CF

Yep, the marketing has worked on me, and now my stokedness (apparently not a word according to Firefox ) is focused in the general direction of Di2! The prospect of not having to bother with derailleur adjustments sounds awesome to me. Or chain rub. Or letting off on shifting while climbing. Or always worrying about what the latest and greatest would be like (yes, yes, I know there's Dura Ace Di2, but apparently the newest Di2 tech is on Ultegra?). Or.. You get the picture. If there's one upgrade to end them all, at least regarding groupsets, it has got to be electronic shifting at this point. Now, if only BD had a Moto Ti w/Ultegra Di2.. I'd be shitting my pants hard enough to drop a hole right down to China

Only thing I'm worried about is getting obsoleted fairly quickly. If you're familiar with the tech industry, you know the deal with the latest 'n greatest.. it's also the first to get outdated fast when the new latest 'n greatest comes out aka the new Dura Ace Di2 which should take the improvements of Ui2:cryin:. Oh well, I'm sure Shimano would have the foresight to not leave their big ticket buyers in the dust with their tech advancements.. right? Right...? 

BTW if someone can recommend other online shops besides BD to buy a complete bike that can compete with BD's pricing/returns policy/customer service, I'd appreciate that. And no, before you ask, LBS is out of the question. I'd really like this next bike to be as much of a 'real' upgrade as possible (aka CF/Ti frame, top or close to top of the line components [Ultegra/Dura Ace/Di2, Force/RED, Campy???]), and with my budget of <$3,000, I simply don't think that would be possible with the bikes at that pricepoint here in the LBSs. Of course, there is always mechanical and fit support but meh, what's the point when I already have one year of road cycling experience behind me and still have many more to come to gain the necessary tools/fit knowledge/repair experience by myself? And if anyone thinks I should start a new thread for this, feel free to suggest that too :thumbsup:


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