# Will Rim Brake Parts Start to Disappear By 2017?



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

With road discs becoming legal for sanctioned events in 2016 and 2017, I could see rim brake parts being available on a more limited basis eventually, but 2017 seems a bit soon for me. I just don't see the "mass extinction" thing happening, but I do agree that discs will likely become the standard once they are adopted by the pros. Thoughts on this debate and the "legalization" of road discs for pros and amateurs in general? 

http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/11/mass-extinction/


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Don't believe the hype my friend.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Rashadabd said:


> With road discs becoming legal for sanctioned events in 2016 and 2017, I could see rim brake parts being available on a more limited basis eventually, but 2017 seems a bit soon for me. I just don't see the "mass extinction" thing happening, but I do agree that discs will likely become the standard once they are adopted by the pros. Thoughts on this debate and the "legalization" of road discs for pros and amateurs in general?
> 
> http://redkiteprayer.com/2015/11/mass-extinction/


Et tu, Campagnolo?


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> Don't believe the hype my friend.


That's a completely legitimate way to feel. Having tried both, I have mixed feelings, but I live in a pretty rainy area, so discs do have some appeal in theory. But is it "hype" if it's happening and how much does it matter what you "want" if discs are what is primarily available in a few years? I am starting to realize that could truly be the case in the near future. Maybe it ends up like electronic and mechanical groupsets where both are available and almost all new bikes are compatible with both, but maybe it ends up like 9spd and 10spd groups or shifters attached to the frame, etc. and it starts to phase out. FWIW, I also think many alloy rims and narrower wheelsets (23mm and less) are on their way out too.

Disc brakes to be allowed in WorldTour races from January, can be used in amateur ranks in 2017 | CyclingTips

Bend in the Road: Road disc axle shuffle - BikeRadar USA


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Rashadabd said:


> That's a completely legitimate way to feel. Having tried both, I have mixed feelings, but I live in a pretty rainy area, so discs do have some appeal in theory. But is it "hype" if it's happening and how much does it matter what you "want" if discs are what is primarily available in a few years? I am starting to realize that could truly be the case in the near future. Maybe it ends up like electronic and mechanical groupsets where both are available and almost all new bikes are compatible with both, but maybe it ends up like 9spd and 10spd groups or shifters attached to the frame, etc. and it starts to phase out. FWIW, I also think many alloy rims and narrower wheelsets (23mm and less) are on their way out too.
> 
> Disc brakes to be allowed in WorldTour races from January, can be used in amateur ranks in 2017 | CyclingTips
> 
> Bend in the Road: Road disc axle shuffle - BikeRadar USA


I don't see OEM's supporting both indefinitely, Disc brakes impact the frame and fork design. I think you'll see more models that have disks and then eventually calipers will go the way of the dodo. The good news is that bike prices will go even higher


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

DaveG said:


> I don't see OEM's supporting both indefinitely, Disc brakes impact the frame and fork design. I think you'll see more models that have disks and then eventually calipers will go the way of the dodo. The good news is that bike prices will go even higher


I agree, but higher prices = angry rashad  . I am hoping that brands like Norco force them to keep the pricing competitive. They have produced a good road disc race bike that isn't all that expensive comparatively:

Tactic SL Disc - Race - Race - Road - Bikes - Norco Bicycles


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I'll quote one of the pro's here:

"It's not the brakes that are the limiting factor, it's the tires. Having disc brakes is just going to make that worse."


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> I'll quote one of the pro's here:
> 
> "It's not the brakes that are the limiting factor, it's the tires. Having disc brakes is just going to make that worse."


Another valid point that will probably get lost in the shuffle. I don't mind so much, so long as discs develop to be/continue to be a true improvement.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

for a traditional road bike, discs are unneeded.

for mtb's, commuters, hybrids etc. etc....they're beneficial.

The only people that say they're gonna be the future on road bikes are the same people who stand to profit from them!


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> The only people that say they're gonna be the future on road bikes are the same people who stand to profit from them!


To be fair, it seems like more than just the manufacturers are saying it now. The media is saying it, the UCI is saying it, the racers are saying it, and now we are talking about it. It sounds like it is happening whether we want it/like it or not. I agree with you that they aren't necessary, but some do say they are beneficial even out on the road. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWsSB9QGkY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JplymlruPZ8


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

More GCN goodies.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

It's all money driven.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> More GCN goodies.


Good stuff, thanks for sharing.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> It's all money driven.


That kind of thinking has to extend beyond discs to include most innovations then. Of course money has to be part of the equation (they are for profit companies after all), but does that mean that the development is always meaningless? Is the buzz about aerodynamics merely money driven in your opinion? What about lighter weight frames? What about stiffness and endurance geometry? Wider tires? Comfort features (iso speed, hertz, thinner seat stays, CGR seatposts, etc.)? Is it your opinion that none of these things are actually beneficial improvements and that all of them are just about making more money? Would you trade your modern bike for something from say 1984 if we could get you a new one? If not, where do we daw the line on what's really a worthwhile andvancement and what's not?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Rashadabd said:


> That kind of thinking has to extend beyond discs to include most innovations then. Of course money has to be part of the equation (they are for profit companies after all), but does that mean that the development is always meaningless? Is the buzz about aerodynamics merely money driven in your opinion? What about lighter weight frames? What about stiffness and endurance geometry? Wider tires? Comfort features (iso speed, hertz, thinner seat stays, CGR seatposts, etc.)? Is it your opinion that none of these things are actually beneficial improvements and that all of them are just about making more money? Would you trade your modern bike for something from say 1984 if we could get you a new one? If not, where do we daw the line on what's really a worthwhile andvancement and what's not?


easy turbo,

I am only talking about disc brakes.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> easy turbo,
> 
> I am only talking about disc brakes.


What's the difference? That's my real point/question.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

It will take a long time. Personally I like rim brakes a great deal. Shimano rim brakes have come a long way and for most applications they're pretty much anyone needs and they're simple and cheap to maintain. That said I heard Shimano is debating the next generation of Dura Ace and if they'll even come out with a new mechanical group set when they do which is also 2017.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> More GCN goodies.


GCN = marketing. Just look up who puts the stuff out.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Yes, disc brakes lock the wheels up more quickly in wet conditions but - as that GCN video shows - this means that bikes will be going into skids much more quickly as well. My feeling is that disc brakes create conditions which exceed the capabilities of all but the best riders and may just cause a lot more road rash in the future.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> To be fair, it seems like more than just the manufacturers are saying it now. The media is saying it, the UCI is saying it, the racers are saying it, and now we are talking about it. It sounds like it is happening whether we want it/like it or not. I agree with you that they aren't necessary, but some do say they are beneficial even out on the road.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Media = paid advertisers. The bike companies and the equipment makers pay for this.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

The overwhelming vast majority of road bikes out there are rim brake. Someone in the market for a new bike might choose disc brakes. The OEM market will likely go towards disc brakes but I fully expect the big three to continue to market caliper brakes. A guy who spent many thousands of dollars on SpecialTrekDale or any other really nice road bike with rim brakes will want to upgrade his stuff every few years. There's also the question of wheels. Having one road bike with disc brakes means that any spare sets of wheels will need to include a set with discs. I like the fact that I can grab another wheel and go if I have an issue heading out on a ride.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

The most you might see is development stop/slow in this area and the bike companies not putting out pre-built high end bikes using a caliper spec, but the equipment will be out there for years to come. The existing base is too large to ignore and there are many cyclists who just don't jump on an idea simply because social media and the bike industry tells them to.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Rashadabd said:


> With road discs becoming legal for sanctioned events in 2016 and 2017, I could see rim brake parts being available on a more limited basis eventually, but 2017 seems a bit soon for me. I just don't see the "mass extinction" thing happening, but I do agree that discs will likely become the standard once they are adopted by the pros. Thoughts on this debate and the "legalization" of road discs for pros and amateurs in general?
> 
> Mass Extinction | RKP


no never.

And look how Shimano structures their products. They have had Di2 for what 7 years and it only trickled down to Ultegra, not even 105! I definitely want to move to electronic shiftting more than I want road discs. Fact is, I do not want road discs so I can continue to use my stash of wheels.

If anything goes extinct it will be road disc brakes, especially cable actuated versions. Those ones all SUCK. But will grow in prominence for cyclocross of course. But cyclocross has a teensy weensy sliver of the bike market. maybe for commuters and gravel bikes it will take hold. I know I sure want them on my gravel/cyclocross bike to eliminate these awful cable discs


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

The video was interesting, but only up to the point the riders started waxing on disc aesthetics.

The situation reminds me of Windows software today, particularly my employer's LOB software. Our vendor has stopped developing the product and is focusing its efforts on the web. The Windows version will be supported indefinitely but receive no new features nor refinement. This will happen with rim brakes; engineering will focus on discs. Do you think Shimano, etc., with their expertise in electronic shifting can't build ABS if there is a market for it?

I'm guessing the Pros and their teams will get discs sorted out and never look back.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

mtrac said:


> The video was interesting, but only up to the point the riders started waxing on disc aesthetics.
> 
> The situation reminds me of Windows software today, particularly my employer's LOB software. Our vendor has stopped developing the product and is focusing its efforts on the web. The Windows version will be supported indefinitely but receive no new features nor refinement. This will happen with rim brakes; engineering will focus on discs. Do you think Shimano, etc., with their expertise in electronic shifting can't build ABS if there is a market for it?
> 
> I'm guessing the Pros and their teams will get discs sorted out and never look back.


rim brakes won't receive any new innovations? well they have not improved in over 25 years anyways. The only changes have been more aero brakes and weight weenie specialty brakes. The basic SLR dual pivot brakes from 25 years ago are essentially identical in feel and performance to the latest SRAM red, Dura ace rim brakes today (I just swapped out my 25 yr old 105 brakes for some Red brakes and there is approximately zero difference). And as for pads, the red pads that Mathauser came out with in the 70s remains the top compound today for alu rims.

Rim brakes pretty much do not need any innovations. Like someone else cited in this thread, the brakes are no longer a limiting factor and haven't been for a quarter century. it's the tires.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

BCSaltchucker said:


> rim brakes won't receive any new innovations? well they have not improved in over 25 years anyways. The only changes have been more aero brakes and weight weenie specialty brakes. The basic SLR dual pivot brakes from 25 years ago are essentially identical in feel and performance to the latest SRAM red, Dura ace rim brakes today (I just swapped out my 25 yr old 105 brakes for some Red brakes and there is approximately zero difference). And as for pads, the red pads that Mathauser came out with in the 70s remains the top compound today for alu rims.
> 
> Rim brakes pretty much do not need any innovations. Like someone else cited in this thread, the brakes are no longer a limiting factor and haven't been for a quarter century. it's the tires.



Certainly not the case. Shimano has continued to refine and produce better versions of caliper brakes over the years. More evolutionary than revolutionary but caliper brakes have definitely gotten better


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> Don't believe the hype my friend.


Have you ever ridden a road bike with disc brakes?

Even my Dura Ace brakes on my road bike (9000 series) feel like garbage and provide poor power compared to the hydro discs on my cross bike and MTB.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I am just going to ride the bike I have (steel). It works fine and I am sure Nashbar or somebody will offer the parts I need.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> The most you might see is development stop/slow in this area and the bike companies not putting out pre-built high end bikes using a caliper spec, but the equipment will be out there for years to come. The existing base is too large to ignore and there are many cyclists who just don't jump on an idea simply because social media and the bike industry tells them to.


hopefully it is not going to be the full-Jonestown-Koolaid like happened with 29er/27.5er in MTB ugh


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> The most you might see is development stop/slow in this area and the bike companies not putting out pre-built high end bikes using a caliper spec, but the equipment will be out there for years to come. The existing base is too large to ignore and there are many cyclists who just don't jump on an idea simply because social media and the bike industry tells them to.


Marketers are going to push discs along with gravel bikes, wide rims, bigger tires, to attract buyers who don't trust current uber light weight bikes addressing the racing market. Not everyone is into speed for its own sake. Many would just rather ride a reliable machine that they trust will get them home. Part of that is ease of maintenance. Disc brakes are great, but they're a PITA to adjust compared to rim brakes.

Frankly, on dry tarmac, rim brakes are really just disc brakes with a much larger disc, allowing a broader range of control modulating speed before they lock up. That's what a couple of the racers said in the video above.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Marketers are going to push discs along with gravel bikes, wide rims, bigger tires, to attract buyers who don't trust current uber light weight bikes addressing the racing market. Not everyone is into speed for its own sake. Many would just rather ride a reliable machine that they trust will get them home. Part of that is ease of maintenance. Disc brakes are great, but they're a PITA to adjust compared to rim brakes.
> 
> Frankly, on dry tarmac, rim brakes are really just disc brakes with a much larger disc, allowing a broader range of control modulating speed before they lock up. That's what a couple of the racers said in the video above.



Funny I am specing out a Gravel bike with larger tires and disc brakes for use in rain and snow or off road. My opinion is that in good weather and on road disc holds no advantage and the extra weight actually a penalty, especially on rides that emphasize climbs.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Media = paid advertisers. The bike companies and the equipment makers pay for this.


Well then, what about the number of users on here that ride disc brake equipped road bikes and say they love them? Are they on the payroll too or just fanning the hype flames? I actually think the coverage on each of the GCN videos was pretty balanced if you watch the clips in their entirety....


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> Well then, what about the number of users on here that ride disc brake equipped road bikes and say they love them? Are they on the payroll too or just fanning the hype flames? I actually think the coverage on each of the GCN videos was pretty balanced if you watch the clips in their entirety....


Some truly like them, others may be exercising confirmation bias.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

Ya, And I have thee OEM crates of SRAM and SHIMANO rim caliper brakes for sale. Only marked up 115% from MSRP. 

They made fade into obscurity, but unless you have the specific desire to get original stock parts on a bike, I wouldn't worry about it yet.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

kjdhawkhill said:


> Ya, And I have thee OEM crates of SRAM and SHIMANO rim caliper brakes for sale. Only marked up 115% from MSRP.
> 
> They made fade into obscurity, but unless you have the specific desire to get original stock parts on a bike, I wouldn't worry about it yet.


I keep buying replacement chains and cassettes for my 6500 Ultegra. The OEM market will leave owners hanging as long as their is a large base of existing bikes out there.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Rashadabd said:


> Well then, what about the number of users on here that ride disc brake equipped road bikes and say they love them?


when you pay that much for something, crap or not, you tell yourself it's good.

like someone said, confirmation bias.

I spend 99% of my time pedaling, not braking.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

factory feel said:


> when you pay that much for something, crap or not, you tell yourself it's good.
> 
> like someone said, confirmation bias.
> 
> I spend 99% of my time pedaling, not braking.


Fair enough, but I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. My feeling is that they're not a necessity or even a revelation, but that there is a real benefit particularly in the rain/really wet conditions. Is that worth the switch, probably not if you have extra wheels etc, laying around, but it might be if you are starting from scratch anyway and live in an area where you will be riding in wet conditions a significant amount of time. That seems to be the actual balanced truth that I have been able to distill from all the reviews and comments I have heard the last year or so. Both those that say disc brakes are the best thing that ever happened to cycling and those that say disc brakes bring nothing to the table and are completely irrelevent in all conditions seem to be the biased extremes. To each his own though.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Funny I am specing out a Gravel bike with larger tires and disc brakes for use in rain and snow or off road. My opinion is that in good weather and on road disc holds no advantage and the extra weight actually a penalty, especially on rides that emphasize climbs.


What about bad weather? Isn't that the conclusion that GCN and some of the riders interviewed reach in the videos linked above? Discs don't add a ton of advantages in dry conditions on the road, but are a real benefit in wet and sloppy conditions? So you agree with them (and their marketing hype) then?


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

mtrac said:


> The video was interesting, but only up to the point the riders started waxing on disc aesthetics.
> 
> The situation reminds me of Windows software today, particularly my employer's LOB software. Our vendor has stopped developing the product and is focusing its efforts on the web. The Windows version will be supported indefinitely but receive no new features nor refinement. This will happen with rim brakes; engineering will focus on discs. Do you think Shimano, etc., with their expertise in electronic shifting can't build ABS if there is a market for it?
> 
> I'm guessing the Pros and their teams will get discs sorted out and never look back.


I could see this happening. I think a lot of it will turn on how things play out in actual races in the next year or so. If we don't see all of the crashes, burns, and compatitbility issues folks seem to fear, discs will quickly become the standard in my opinion, but time will tell.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> What about bad weather? Isn't that the conclusion that GCN and some of the riders interviewed reach in the videos linked above? Discs don't add a ton of advantages in dry conditions on the road, but are a real benefit in wet and sloppy conditions? So you agree with them (and their marketing hype) then?


Not entirely. I really want larger wheels, caper brakes are out and the choice is between disc and cantilever. If the weather is really crappy, I'm staying home anyway.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> Certainly not the case. Shimano has continued to refine and produce better versions of caliper brakes over the years. More evolutionary than revolutionary but caliper brakes have definitely gotten better


still, a 25 year old shimano caliper with red brake pads which have not changed in 40 years, will still outperform a new Dura-Ace caliper and pad setup - for feel and power. The miniscule changes to their caliper to add barely noticeable improvements in stiffness or aerodynamics are laughable. The real change in their brakes is aesthetics mainly. Not that there is anything wrong with that - they achieved excellent brakes by 1990 and are smart to stick with what works ever since.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

BCSaltchucker said:


> still, a 25 year old shimano caliper with red brake pads which have not changed in 40 years, will still outperform a new Dura-Ace caliper and pad setup - for feel and power. The miniscule changes to their caliper to add barely noticeable improvements in stiffness or aerodynamics are laughable. The real change in their brakes is aesthetics mainly. Not that there is anything wrong with that - they achieved excellent brakes by 1990 and are smart to stick with what works ever since.



I don't agree with that. I prefer the stopping power of my 6800 over my 6500. And I did say 'evolutionary'


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The answer is no. 

Flat landers have little need for disc brakes so neither the market nor the availability will evaporate for rim brakes any time in the next 10 years. In addition, rim-brakianity has many rabid followers. What they intend to do with infidels remains to be seen.


Rashadabd said:


> With road discs becoming legal for sanctioned events in 2016 and 2017, I could see rim brake parts being available on a more limited basis eventually, but 2017 seems a bit soon for me. I just don't see the "mass extinction" thing happening, but I do agree that discs will likely become the standard once they are adopted by the pros. Thoughts on this debate and the "legalization" of road discs for pros and amateurs in general?
> 
> Mass Extinction | RKP


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> The answer is no.
> 
> Flat landers have little need for disc brakes so neither the market nor the availability will evaporate for rim brakes any time in the next 10 years. In addition, rim-brakianity has many rabid followers. What they intend to do with infidels remains to be seen.


Well, you gotta admit rim caliper brakes are purtier than disc brakes!  Why would you want to mess up the fine, gossamer beauty of a nice road bike with those pie plates and calipers and cables down there on the forks? :nono: Rim brakes are up out of the way, the last component you see on a road bike.

I guess discs might inspire confidence descending Alp D'Huez, if rider doesn't lock up the wheels. :ihih:


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> Well, you gotta admit rim caliper brakes are purtier than disc brakes!  Why would you want to mess up the fine, gossamer beauty of a nice road bike with those pie plates and calipers and cables down there on the forks? :nono: Rim brakes are up out of the way, the last component you see on a road bike.
> 
> I guess discs might inspire confidence descending Alp D'Huez, if rider doesn't lock up the wheels. :ihih:


I think this is why discs are coming to the tour. Drugs are out so faster climbs probably not hapening, which means faster descents. Of course is that really safe or good for the sport?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

i try not to ride in the rain. if i get caught out? oh well.

it rained about an inch where i live last year.

if you ride in the rain a lot, by all means get some discs, if you need them.

i don't need them and don't want the hassle, and yes, I have four mtb bikes with

current shimano disc brakes and have tried a ton of other brands over the years.

they work great on an mtb.


*I just don't need em on my roadies!*


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Fredrico said:


> Well, you gotta admit rim caliper brakes are purtier than disc brakes!  Why would you want to mess up the fine, gossamer beauty of a nice road bike with those pie plates and calipers and cables down there on the forks? :nono: Rim brakes are up out of the way, the last component you see on a road bike.
> 
> I guess discs might inspire confidence descending Alp D'Huez, *if rider doesn't lock up the wheels*. :ihih:


or boil their fluid


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> or boil their fluid


No kidding! Have you ever touched a rim after a long descent? :shocked: Good case for cables. 

Did you notice the two guys in the GCN link did not observe red hot disc on rear wheel from being applied the whole way down the descent? Apparently the disc cools as well as the rim. But if glue on tubular tires can be melted and tire rolls off in the next turn, boiling brake fluid couldn't be far behind. Is there a manual over ride?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> What's the difference? That's my real point/question.


Solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

It reminds me of New Coke.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Or The Edsel.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

factory feel said:


> i try not to ride in the rain. if i get caught out? oh well.
> 
> it rained about an inch where i live last year.


Thats just bragging. We got [more than] that in 24 hours yesterday. 

I rode yesterday, with cantilevers. 21 miles in to work, and 21 home. Fork shudder and all. Didn't really think that discs would be a real improvement, but eliminating the fork shudder can't be a bad deal.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

factory feel said:


> Or The Edsel.


Or shock absorber seat posts, elastomer shocks laminated in the chain stays, 50/34 gears, heavy aerodynamic rims with too few spokes, and fast approaching, 23C tires. 

What goes around comes around: wider rims [with more spokes], 25C tires, and the stubborn hold on market share of top end custom steel bikes, still much cheaper than carbon, but they perform quite as well. Carbon builders are just now getting to the point they are successfully imitating the ride quality of steel: comfort without giving up amazing response.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I'd rather have fenders, when riding in the rain, than disk brakes.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

yep. and a rain jacket.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> I'd rather have fenders, when riding in the rain, than disk brakes.


Sure got that right. 

Y'know, fenders would be easy to mount on disc brake wheels. No calipers to get in the way. :yesnod:


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Rashadabd said:


> With road discs becoming legal for sanctioned events in 2016 and 2017, I could see rim brake parts being available on a more limited basis eventually, but 2017 seems a bit soon for me. I just don't see the "mass extinction" thing happening, but I do agree that discs will likely become the standard once they are adopted by the pros. Thoughts on this debate and the "legalization" of road discs for pros and amateurs in general?
> 
> Mass Extinction | RKP


I just did a Google search for "Downtube shifters for sale" There seems to be plenty of parts available for them, and bikes haven't been manufactured with them for a while.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

thisisthebeave said:


> Have you ever ridden a road bike with disc brakes?
> 
> Even my Dura Ace brakes on my road bike (9000 series) feel like garbage and provide poor power compared to the hydro discs on my cross bike and MTB.


Rubbish. I actually think my DA9000 brakes are BETTER than the disk brakes on my CX bike! Better modulation and less finger effort.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

BCSaltchucker said:


> still, a 25 year old shimano caliper with red brake pads which have not changed in 40 years, will still outperform a new Dura-Ace caliper and pad setup - for feel and power. The miniscule changes to their caliper to add barely noticeable improvements in stiffness or aerodynamics are laughable. The real change in their brakes is aesthetics mainly. Not that there is anything wrong with that - they achieved excellent brakes by 1990 and are smart to stick with what works ever since.


10,000% expletive! You, sir, have never ridden current top-of-the-line Shimano calipers (6800 or 9000). They are orders of magnitude better than what was available 25 years ago (and I raced then too)!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think the problem here relates to using the term "discs brakes" generically. You cannot seriously suggest that different types of disc brakes are all remotely similar. Hydro discs are pretty much in a league of their own.

From your comments, I would guess that you are talking about cable activated discs?


OldChipper said:


> Rubbish. I actually think my DA9000 brakes are BETTER than the disk brakes on my CX bike! Better modulation and less finger effort.


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## TORNADOS7 (Nov 27, 2015)

Never had the opportunity to try discs personally but I doubt we'll see rim brakes and calipers disappear altogether as they've been around for far to long to become extinct, what they do need to do however is work on getting them to produce more power, a caliper similar in design to the type used on hydraulic discs brakes but designed to run on the rim in the way traditional calipers do now would do the trick quite nicely I should think !...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

the cable actuated disc brakes are junk stuff compared to the current Shimano calipers. I would never ever want to use cable disc on a freakin road bike in Socal (where I am).

Now as far as rim brake parts disappearing, it's not going to happen. If/when Shimanos, and/or Sram, and/or Campy decide to stop producing them, there will be no doubt that Taiwanese manufacuters will be more than happy to fill the void. Hell, if Shimano stop making them, and let's say Campy continues to make them, I can then see a potentially huge shift in fans shifting to the Campy camp. It will all going to depend on DEMAND, and from the looks of thing, there is still a great demand and desire from a lot of people staying with caliper rim brakes. I reckon there will be a dominant faction of people in places like flatland America, or nice weather like Socal, who will want to stick with rim brakes. Lots of business for Shimano to ignore, and like I said, even if do, there will be others stepping in to fill the void. It is utterly ridiculous to even suggest that rim brakes or rim brake parts will start to disappear by 2017. Sh*t if fixie gear bikes haven't disappeared, then hell if rim brakes will. Not everyone who wants a bicycle is gonna be ready to plop down a few thousands bux so they can get electronic shifting and hydro disc.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

mm9 said:


> I just did a Google search for "Downtube shifters for sale" There seems to be plenty of parts available for them, and bikes haven't been manufactured with them for a while.


That's probably the best comparison as far as availability.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Discs were legal in USACycling amateur road races last year and this year. They have always been been legal. I saw my first disc brake bike in a race this year. One bike, in a field of 50+. This is in NorCal masters racing where there are a lot of riders who can afford new bikes.

I don't see rim brakes disappearing any time soon. It took at least ten years for rim brakes to disappear from high end mtbs, and discs have much more of a functional advantage on mtbs than on road racing bikes.


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## Clyde250 (Feb 24, 2007)

I just went to disc, and granted I don't have a ton of time on them, but they are an improvement over rim. I weigh 220, and several of my loops have steady descents exceeding 3500 vertical ft. With my weight, I don't feel comfortable with carbon hoops and rim brakes. Everyone I know that runs them, melts them. So for me to go with Carbon, disc was the only way. 

Same complaints were used when disc brakes were introduced on mountain bikes. If it doesn't suit you, don't buy it.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

ericm979 said:


> Discs were legal in USACycling amateur road races last year and this year. They have always been been legal. I saw my first disc brake bike in a race this year. One bike, in a field of 50+. This is in NorCal masters racing where there are a lot of riders who can afford new bikes.
> 
> I don't see rim brakes disappearing any time soon. It took at least ten years for rim brakes to disappear from high end mtbs, and discs have much more of a functional advantage on mtbs than on road racing bikes.


From USA Cycling current rules:
Rule 1I1(e) indicates that bicycles must meet current UCI technical regulations at events that select 17-18, U23 and Elite riders for international competition or national teams.* All bicycles used in National Championships (for age 17 and older riders) and NRC races must comply with the current UCI regulations*. At the discretion of USA Cycling, UCI rules may be adopted or modified for Masters National Championships.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

TORNADOS7 said:


> what they do need to do however is work on getting them to produce more power,


More power? You can lock up your wheels no problem with rim brakes if they're set up properly. 

More power is not the issue.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Now as far as rim brake parts disappearing, it's not going to happen. If/when Shimanos, and/or Sram, and/or Campy decide to stop producing them, there will be no doubt that Taiwanese manufacuters will be more than happy to fill the void.


And rm brakes will always be available for TT bikes. No want wants massive rotors or calipers on those things after going through the amount of aero-weenying some do.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Solutions for a problem that doesn't exist.


But none of my examples of real "problems" that prevent one from riding and having fun. Yet, many accept them as improvements. Why aren't we willing to do this with disc brakes on road bikes?


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

mm9 said:


> I just did a Google search for "Downtube shifters for sale" There seems to be plenty of parts available for them, and bikes haven't been manufactured with them for a while.


With L'Eroica gaining in popularity I would imagine downtube shifter popularity is on the upswing. Along with the other components.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Disc brakes will become the norm. Whether people like it or not, that WILL happen. But it won't happen as soon as 2017. Maybe by 2019-2020.

Having said that, rim brakes will always be around. They still are for entry level mountain bikes, even. You won't have trouble finding rim brakes, frames, or wheels in the foreseeable future. Selection may dwindle some, as selection of disc options increase, but options will remain.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> But none of my examples of real "problems" that prevent one from riding and having fun. Yet, many accept them as improvements. Why aren't we willing to do this with disc brakes on road bikes?



Because it's not an improvement. It's not "fixing' anything or making anything better.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> Disc brakes will become the norm.


Norm for what? Not for aero (though how funny would a disc wheel look with disc brakes?!). Not for weight-weenie. 

While I could be wrong, I seriously doubt there will be a "norm".


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

pedalbiker said:


> More power? You can lock up your wheels no problem with rim brakes if they're set up properly.
> 
> More power is not the issue.


The only issue is really that rims pick up dirt, oil drippings, water, and snow from the road and the brakes don't always work very well. Out in the woods, yes, discs might be more reliable. On graded roads, not a big problem. The trade offs in weight, aerodynamics, and ease of maintenance, aren't worth it, unless you commute to work in snow.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> Norm for what? Not for aero (though how funny would a disc wheel look with disc brakes?!). Not for weight-weenie.
> 
> While I could be wrong, I seriously doubt there will be a "norm".


Unless the manufacturers impose a norm on the pro peloton, because it creates opportunities on the consumer market ... 

But I'm glad somebody mentioned here that the tires are the limiting factor when you're braking, even without discs. The only moments that braking put me in a difficult situation were when I locked up the wheels. 

I'm not against discs. When I buy a new bike in 10 yrs. or so, discs won't be the deciding factor. 
But I must confess that I don't feel the need for them. I did Madeleine, Alpe d'Huez etc. this year and never needed them. One finger braking and perfectly fine "modulation" all the way down. When I had a clear view of the road, I overtook a few cars in left-turning hairpins, which means late and hard braking because you have to be first out of the corner - cars in general won't overtake you when you're in front of them, but once they start to accelerate out of the corner they're gone and you have to wait for the next hairpin. 
My brakes worked fine. 
I'm willing to believe that discs could bring me to a new level, but I simply don't have the courage or the skills to explore that level. If other have it, good for them & be happy with your discs. But I think there are many riders like me.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

HFroller said:


> Unless the manufacturers impose a norm on the pro peloton, because it creates opportunities on the consumer market ...
> 
> But I'm glad somebody mentioned here that the tires are the limiting factor when you're braking, even without discs. The only moments that braking put me in a difficult situation were when I locked up the wheels.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that was not in pissing rain down the relatively easy descent of Alpe d'Huez. Makes it a bit more interesting when the road is essentially a river and you rely on a piece of rubber on aluminium to brake.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> . . .but I do agree that discs will likely become the standard once they are adopted by the pros.


The pros "adapted" to tubular tires too, and they are extinct among non-pro riders. They are only around for nostalgia as modern clinchers rival the ride of tubulars.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

pedalbiker said:


> Norm for what? Not for aero (though how funny would a disc wheel look with disc brakes?!). Not for weight-weenie.
> 
> While I could be wrong, I seriously doubt there will be a "norm".


As much as I hate to say it they probably will become the norm for "new" road cyclists.

Most mtn bike riders crossing over to road bikes have been riding disks and will want the same thing on their road bikes. The decision has been made that since they work better in the dirt that they must also work better on the road.

And new cyclists who know that cars and motorcycles perform better with disc brakes are going to want them on their bicycles too.

And cyclists that won't ride their bicycles in the rain need them in case they get caught in the rain.

And cyclists that want carbon rims need them because they don't like the braking performance of those carbon rims.


But I think that what it rally comes down to is marketing and peoples fear of danger/injury\accident. Nobody wants to get hurt, and it's easier to slap disc brakes on a bicycle for wet weather riding than to develop the skills to ride in the rain with rim brakes. At this point it doesn't matter which system is better the line has been drawn.

I'm a Campagnolo guy and I know that Campy went back to a single pivot rear brake early on because the double pivot wasn't needed in the rear, seeing as 70% of the braking is in the front. I bring this up because I expect that it's just a matter of time before it is decided that double discs are needed in the front to compensate for the rear disc. All in the name of safety.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Damm, you caught us. Those of us who've been claiming superior performance on twisting descents and in the rain are all on the payroll of giant corporate hydro disc brake companies. The jig is up. The conspiracy has been exposed. Good work! 

And to think you managed all of this without ever owning them!


pedalbiker said:


> Because it's not an improvement. It's not "fixing' anything or making anything better.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

den bakker said:


> I'm guessing that was not in pissing rain down the relatively easy descent of Alpe d'Huez. Makes it a bit more interesting when the road is essentially a river and you rely on a piece of rubber on aluminium to brake.


does anyone really want to descend the alpe d'huez in the rain? Disc or no disc its no fun and not as comforting as doing it in dry weather.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

den bakker said:


> I'm guessing that was not in pissing rain down the relatively easy descent of Alpe d'Huez. Makes it a bit more interesting when the road is essentially a river and you rely on a piece of rubber on aluminium to brake.


No, the weather was fine this year in France, as you certainly know. A bit too hot, perhaps. 

But thanks for making my point for me. 
If rain would have been pissing down, I wouldn't have overtaken those cars(*). I could have tried and discs might have made it feasible or more feasible, but I wouldn't have had the courage. The added advantage of discs would have been useless. 

A colleague of mine descended Ventoux (the Malaucène side). He claims he reached 114 km/h. He also says he burned his fingers when he touched the rims of his wheels. If he wants discs, it's OK with me. I'm not against them. I'll buy them without hesitation if they're on the new bike I want in 2025. 

But the advantages they offer are located in a region I don't enter. And I suspect that there are many riders like me. If there's nothing else on offer, we'll buy discs. If there's choice between calipers and discs, and the calipers are cheaper, we'll buy calipers and spend the extra money elsewhere. 

That's why I think the demand for calipers will stay significant beyond 2017. 
If the offer will stay significant, that's a whole other matter.

(*) In 1997 I descended Ventoux (Bédoin side) in the cold, the mist and the rain on a mountain bike with cantilevers. I overtook several cars. It can be done without discs! But I'm not als immortal as I used to be. In the plain the weather was sunny, hot and muggy. You gotta love Ventoux.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

:


SwiftSolo said:


> Damm, you caught us. Those of us who've been claiming superior performance on twisting descents and in the rain are all on the payroll of giant corporate hydro disc brake companies. The jig is up. The conspiracy has been exposed. Good work!
> 
> And to think you managed all of this without ever owning them!



 I thought it, but you said it... My heart is with ya, but I don't think some of these guys have it in them to acknowledge that something that they don't ride or like could have any merit or be any good. It sounds like others will only be satisfied when we go back to the original velocipede. I am cashing in early and we will see where the chips fall in the end. My guess is that we will see a bunch of R&D and $$$$ pumped into disc brake technology and in 5-10 years, most cyclists won't even be thinking about rim brakes anymore than they are 9spd drive trains or shifting on the downtube.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> does anyone really want to descend the alpe d'huez in the rain? Disc or no disc its no fun and not as comforting as doing it in dry weather.


given the choice? of course not. but if you happen to live in mountainous areas thundershowers come and go and are hard to predict. Of course one could just skip long rides for some months each year (and for the rainy days). Or just accept weather is what it is and plan accordingly and have appropriate equipment.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> does anyone really want to descend the alpe d'huez in the rain? Disc or no disc its no fun and not as comforting as doing it in dry weather.


If it's raining I stay at home. It will usually clear up at some point and then I will get out for an hour or two. Anyway I am not going to gear up for the Alpe d'Huez in the driving rain. Besides I live in Calif.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

HFroller said:


> No, the weather was fine this year in France, as you certainly know. A bit too hot, perhaps.
> 
> But thanks for making my point for me.
> If rain would have been pissing down, I wouldn't have overtaken those cars(*). I could have tried and discs might have made it feasible or more feasible, but I wouldn't have had the courage. The added advantage of discs would have been useless.
> ...


I'm not sure why you are so hooked on the cars but each their own. There tends to be way much traffic and people all over the place there in the summer for me seeing the point trying to overtake anything in the hairpins in any weather. 
In any case, if it's really pouring there's hardly any breaking at all. cars or no cars.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Personally, I think the industry will declare everyone's disc brakes obsolete when they come out with ABS for bikes. I am looking at disc though, not for road, but for a gravel bike that will be used in some rain/snow and off road. Seems to make bikes more expensive is my only certain conclusion.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Personally, I think the industry will declare everyone's disc brakes obsolete when they come out with ABS for bikes. I am looking at disc though, not for road, but for a gravel bike that will be used in some rain/snow and off road. Seems to make bikes more expensive is my only certain conclusion.


just ride on the road in the dry and no need for better brakes :thumbsup:


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

OldChipper said:


> 10,000% expletive! You, sir, have never ridden current top-of-the-line Shimano calipers (6800 or 9000). They are orders of magnitude better than what was available 25 years ago (and I raced then too)!


well they must be better than SRAM Red then


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I can see that if/when/should Shimano stop making rim brakes, the biggest winner may be the Taiwanese component maker FSA, and/or some other OEM Taiwanese component makers. I think the market for mechanical groupsets and rim brakes will continue to be so strong that the Taiwanese component makers have got to be keen on considering taking over should any of the big 3 Shimano, Sram, and/or Campy abandon mechanical groupset and/or rim brakes. Lots of money at play here given the still strong desire by many to use mechanical and rim brakes. I can definitely see a "nobody behind the scene OEM Taiwanese component maker" making a name for itself should it come to that. Shimano has to be careful or they'll find themselves losing customers and market share to Taiwan.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> I can see that if/when/should Shimano stop making rim brakes, the biggest winner may be the Taiwanese component maker FSA, and/or some other OEM Taiwanese component makers. I think the market for mechanical groupsets and rim brakes will continue to be so strong that the Taiwanese component makers have got to be keen on considering taking over should any of the big 3 Shimano, Sram, and/or Campy abandon mechanical groupset and/or rim brakes. Lots of money at play here given the still strong desire by many to use mechanical and rim brakes. I can definitely see a "nobody behind the scene OEM Taiwanese component maker" making a name for itself should it come to that. Shimano has to be careful or they'll find themselves losing customers and market share to Taiwan.


Hopefully only Ultegra and Dura Ace will be for the e-bikes and 105 down will be mechanical for people with kids and a mortgage. At least Tiagra down as that is what I have to get next time anyway.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

BikeLayne said:


> Hopefully only Ultegra and Dura Ace will be for the e-bikes and 105 down will be mechanical for people with kids and a mortgage. At least Tiagra down as that is what I have to get next time anyway.


More likely Shimano just offers them and doesn't put more r&d into upgrades. with r&d paid off from past profits, they let the price drop. Probably at some future point Shimano reduces but does not eliminate mechanical offerings which the market will use for quite some time. Parts will be available in the aftermarket for years to come. I just replaced my Ultegra 6500 rear cassette this year.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

den bakker said:


> I'm guessing that was not in pissing rain down the relatively easy descent of Alpe d'Huez. Makes it a bit more interesting when the road is essentially a river and *you rely on a piece of rubber on aluminium to brake.*


*
*
Versus the piece of rubber on tarmac?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Damm, you caught us. Those of us who've been claiming superior performance on twisting descents and in the rain are all on the payroll of giant corporate hydro disc brake companies. The jig is up. The conspiracy has been exposed. Good work!
> 
> And to think you managed all of this without ever owning them!


Maybe you should go back to rim brakes and learn how to actually descend? The brakes weren't holding back your performance...


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

there's currently over 200 sets of Shimano caliper brakes for sale on ebay...didn't bother to check on Campy or SRAM.

just stock up now if you're worried about future availability...


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Rashadabd said:


> :
> 
> 
> I thought it, but you said it... My heart is with ya, but I don't think some these guys have it in them to acknowledge that something that don't ride or like could have any merit or be any good.


Seeing as how I only ride in order to train to race, performance is _a_ll I care about, whether from a physical standpoint or a technical standpoint. 

Could it have merit? Sure. So can an umbrella attachment for your handlebars. Depends on the audience. 

For racing? No, not any that I do. Not any that most do. Maybe if we get some downhill time trials...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BikeLayne said:


> Hopefully only Ultegra and Dura Ace will be for the e-bikes and 105 down will be mechanical for people with kids and a mortgage. At least Tiagra down as that is what I have to get next time anyway.


well here's the thing that I think Shimano will have to consider.
Let's say they stop making mechanical and rim brakes for Ultegra and DA. That leaves it with 105 down. Well guess what, 105 will be about half price from Ultegra, and about 1/4 price from DA. Customers buying 105 mechanical (because they are no more Ultegra/DA mechanical) will mean loss potential revenue for Shimano if they were offered Ultegra/DA in mechanical.

Lots of decision to think about for the bean counters are Shimano headquarters.

and then of course, there's always the Taiwanese which I suspect will be all too happy to move in any void left by Shimano. 

But I also see Campy possibly not abandoning their mechanical groupset. Surely a disgruntled Shimano user who now can't get Ultegra/DA in mechanical might possibly move over to Campy?

But I also can see that Shimano while not releasing any newer mechanical groupset, but will continue to manufacturer the current 11-speed Ultegra/DA mechanical groupsets. And really, at this point, Shimano doesn't need to upgrade their 6800/9000 groups any further. These groupsets are pretty much at the pinnacle of mechanicl index shifting, and Shimano can just keep producing them for the next decade as it is. Hell, I'm still an extremely happy user of Shimano 7800 groupset, and that's like what 10 years ago?

so all this doom and gloom about rim brake (or mechanical group) disappearing in the near 1-2 year future, is a bunch of baloney.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Seeing as how I only ride in order to train to race, performance is _a_ll I care about, whether from a physical standpoint or a technical standpoint.
> 
> Could it have merit? Sure. So can an umbrella attachment for your handlebars. Depends on the audience.
> 
> For racing? No, not any that I do. Not any that most do. Maybe if we get some downhill time trials...


and let's not forget your typical cat-12345 racers will not ever be racing stage races on the wet alps of Europe. People make it like stage racing on the wet alps, or classics of Europe, is the norm. Damn. That being said, I must admit that I'm in Socal and when it rains, sh*t I hit the gym for some social bs'in with the meatheads, eff that rain and wet stuff. But I do see the hardcore gramps riding in them rain though, with their balloon bright neon jackets.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> The pros "adapted" to tubular tires too, and they are extinct among non-pro riders. They are only around for nostalgia as modern clinchers rival the ride of tubulars.


this is a very good point.
And I don't see tubs disappearing anytime soon even though 99.99% of bicyclists don't and will never use them.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> and let's not forget your typical cat-12345 racers will not ever be racing stage races on the wet alps of Europe. People make it like stage racing on the wet alps, or classics of Europe, is the norm. Damn. That being said, I must admit that I'm in Socal and when it rains, sh*t I hit the gym for some social bs'in with the meatheads, eff that rain and wet stuff. But I do see the hardcore gramps riding in them rain though, with their balloon bright neon jackets.


I bet some of those geezers have disc brakes, too!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

pedalbiker said:


> [/B]
> Versus the piece of rubber on tarmac?


yes
12345


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> I bet some of those geezers have disc brakes, too!


I won't take that bet.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> and let's not forget your typical cat-12345 racers will not ever be racing stage races on the wet alps of Europe. People make it like stage racing on the wet alps, or classics of Europe, is the norm. Damn. That being said, I must admit that I'm in Socal and when it rains, sh*t I hit the gym for some social bs'in with the meatheads, eff that rain and wet stuff. But I do see the hardcore gramps riding in them rain though, with their balloon bright neon jackets.


Well, I did race (back when it was sanctioned) everest challenge. seemed to be quite a few cat 1-5 then. Guess that's close enough for government purposes?

edit: and not exactly a shortage of riders in the alpes from spring to autumn. but I guess they don't count since not cat1-5 US style.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

How long ago did MTB start to go predominantly disc? There's not really any new development going on, but rim brakes are still readily available for that discipline, both linear pull and cantis. 2017 is a bit early to predict the end of road rim brakes.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

den bakker said:


> Well, I did race (back when it was sanctioned) everest challenge. seemed to be quite a few cat 1-5 then. Guess that's close enough for government purposes?
> 
> edit: and not exactly a shortage of riders in the alpes from spring to autumn. but I guess they don't count since not cat1-5 US style.



This going back to disc brakes becoming the "norm" and all.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

As has been pointed out endlessly, hydro discs offer far more precise braking--even in the dry. This is likely unimportant for flat landers, but if you ride in mountains with twisting descents, the advantage will become clear very quickly. 

Also, mountains tend to generate their own weather--especially in summer afternoons. The only way to have assurance about the weather is to stay in the lowlands. For many cyclists, that falls short of the definition of a "bike ride"


den bakker said:


> just ride on the road in the dry and no need for better brakes :thumbsup:


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> As has been pointed out endlessly, hydro discs offer far more precise braking--even in the dry. This is likely unimportant for flat landers, but if you ride in mountains with twisting descents, the advantage will become clear very quickly.
> 
> Also, mountains tend to generate their own weather--especially in summer afternoons. The only way to have assurance about the weather is to stay in the lowlands. For many cyclists, that falls short of the definition of a "bike ride"


you seemed to miss the snark at his previous statements included in my response. 
as for the mountain weather: why are you lecturing me on what I said a few hours ago?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

if i rode 99% mountain passes i would get some discs but only after the manufacturers get them dialed for road bike levers.

i would only ride alone though cause i wouldn't want to be seen with them.

but....i already have a sweet full rigid carbon 29er with xtr discs so i'd most likely just ride that.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> Norm for what? Not for aero (though how funny would a disc wheel look with disc brakes?!). Not for weight-weenie.
> 
> While I could be wrong, I seriously doubt there will be a "norm".


Norm for bikes to come stock with. Whether they make sense or not, the industry is trending toward discs. Converted mtbers want them. Customers new to road biking are infatuated with them and are now often choosing the disc version over the rim version.

They may never become the norm for purists. But I'll put it this way: within a few years most road bikes will be disc, and even probably over half the race bikes sold will be disc. And so, discs will be the 'norm.'

But the good thing is, first those angered by the rise of disc brakes for road bikes, there will be rim brake models available for many years, I'm sure.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

All this talk about mtb'ers wanting disc because disc stop awesome. Yes, disc stop so awesome, and modulate so awesome, that 9 out 10 mtb'ers that I see on the trail will skid and slid their rear tires at every switchback, while eroding the trails. So, where is this mythical "modulation" power of disc? Maybe mtb'ers would actually learn how to control their speed, maybe they wouldn't have to emphasize to each other not to "erode" the trails while keeping doing it. Disc don't enable skills to the skilless, ehh!


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

yep, mountain bikers don't know how to ride bikes or "control their speed" and that is why you never see them doing well in the mountains stages of road races. Good observation!


aclinjury said:


> All this talk about mtb'ers wanting disc because disc stop awesome. Yes, disc stop so awesome, and modulate so awesome, that 9 out 10 mtb'ers that I see on the trail will skid and slid their rear tires at every switchback, while eroding the trails. So, where is this mythical "modulation" power of disc? Maybe mtb'ers would actually learn how to control their speed, maybe they wouldn't have to emphasize to each other not to "erode" the trails while keeping doing it. Disc don't enable skills to the skilless, ehh!


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

No effin' way.

They will become Huge with the "wanker" crowd (and for people who like to go downhill at 50+ mph)


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> I bet some of those geezers have disc brakes, too!


shhhhht who needs disc when most of their clothings are parachutes. i'm joking, but it's funny riding behind one sometimes hehe


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> shhhhht who needs disc when most of their clothings are parachutes. i'm joking, but it's funny riding behind one sometimes hehe


Probably the reason the parachute guy is in front of you is because disc brakes are a drag (as in aerodynamics). Just kidding if you cannot tell. However one Velo news study I just googled up said about 1 to 8 watts depending on wind angle.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

FWIW, it sounds like it is a done deal for the pros as of today:

UCI approves widespread disc brakes use in 2016 professional peloton | Cyclingnews.com


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## K Dub Cycle (Oct 22, 2013)

UCI has legalized disc brakes for road racing but they have not banned rim brakes. My guess is that they will peacefully coexist for some time. Just like mechanical vs electronic shifting or clincher vs tubular tires. 

My question is if the pros adopt disc brakes 100% or continue to use rim brakes in certain situations (eg climbing stages and/or dry conditions). After all, there is about a one pound weight penalty with discs. 

I think the sponsors are dictating what the pro teams use, whether they like it or not.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> GCN = marketing. Just look up who puts the stuff out.


Wrong. Watch CGN and you'll see they are totally objective


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

SwiftSolo said:


> From USA Cycling current rules:
> Rule 1I1(e) indicates that bicycles must meet current UCI technical regulations at events that select 17-18, U23 and Elite riders for international competition or national teams.* All bicycles used in National Championships (for age 17 and older riders) and NRC races must comply with the current UCI regulations*. At the discretion of USA Cycling, UCI rules may be adopted or modified for Masters National Championships.


That's nationals, not regular amateur races. Very few people here, if any, are going to nationals.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> All this talk about mtb'ers wanting disc because disc stop awesome. Yes, disc stop so awesome, and modulate so awesome, that 9 out 10 mtb'ers that I see on the trail will skid and slid their rear tires at every switchback,


The problem there is with the disc brake controller, not the brake.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

den bakker said:


> Well, I did race (back when it was sanctioned) everest challenge. seemed to be quite a few cat 1-5 then.


I've raced EC a bunch of times, including in the rain and snow. (EC has 29,035' of climbing in two days). I've usually used carbon wheels (and of course rim brakes) there, even in the rain, and didn't feel too worried about braking. Last year I caught and/or dropped a number of people on the wet descents. The EC descents are very long and fast but like many Sierra descents they don't have a lot of tight turns.

There have been a number of other races with epic climbs and descents in NorCal. The gnarliest descent I've done in a race is in the Mt Hamilton road race. The east side is 2000' descent in 4 miles- steep and very technical. There are a lot of crashes. The race organizers station EMTs and radio operators along the descent. I've not felt a need for discs there either, though one time when a vehicle got on the course on the descent and tried to out run us rather than pulling over, I had to brake much more than usual and my carbon rims got quite hot. 

My rain training bike has rim brakes and aluminium rims. If I trained a lot in the rain, like living in Seattle, I'd probably get a disc brake bike. I've yet to feel the need for one for racing.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

It's too early to tell if Disc will become the norm. It won't be until all/most of the pro peloton is on them trouble free. If that occurs I believe they will become the norm pretty quick.

But I think we may start seeing riders lose time/wins because of wheel change problems. There will probably be an increase in crashes on descents as riders try to go faster and faster pushing the envelop. 
High profile problems like that may drastically change the opinion on the need for discs.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> It's too early to tell if Disc will become the norm. It won't be until all/most of the pro peloton is on them trouble free. If that occurs I believe they will become the norm pretty quick.
> 
> But I think we may start seeing riders lose time/wins because of wheel change problems. *There will probably be an increase in crashes on descents as riders try to go faster and faster pushing the envelop. *
> High profile problems like that may drastically change the opinion on the need for discs.


false sense of security will do that to ya. If mtb'ers are an indication, then I fully expect more than a handful of pros will be locking their rear in a switchback and eating pavement. Also, I expect some guys will be trying to be hero and do a late-braking takeover manuver, only to eat shtt. Watch.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> false sense of security will do that to ya. If mtb'ers are an indication, then I fully expect more than a handful of pros will be locking their rear in a switchback and eating pavement. Also, I expect some guys will be trying to be hero and do a late-braking takeover manuver, only to eat shtt. Watch.


well whether they eat pavement or a car. not sure why that would matter. 




He probably had a false sense of security for the anticipation of having disks on next year


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

K Dub Cycle said:


> UCI has legalized disc brakes for road racing but they have not banned rim brakes. My guess is that they will peacefully coexist for some time. Just like mechanical vs electronic shifting or clincher vs tubular tires.
> 
> My question is if the pros adopt disc brakes 100% or continue to use rim brakes in certain situations (eg climbing stages and/or dry conditions). After all, there is about a one pound weight penalty with discs.
> 
> I think the sponsors are dictating what the pro teams use, whether they like it or not.


On the weight thing I believe many of the Pro bikes are adding weight to make the weight limit so I figure there will be no penalty there. For your average cyclist riding disc brakes they will be on a heavier bike especially in the 2K range. 

TT bikes will continue to be outfitted with calipers because of aero dynamics.

Also Pro's actually race in the rain where a regular bike rider like myself will stay home and wait for the sun to come out. 

Anyway disc brakes are just an available option that you can buy or not. You just weigh the Pro's and Con's and buy what you decide is the best for you. 

I agree that the sponsors dictate what the Pro's ride as showcasing their product is the reason they sponsor a team.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> I've raced EC a bunch of times, including in the rain and snow. (EC has 29,035' of climbing in two days). I've usually used carbon wheels (and of course rim brakes) there, even in the rain, and didn't feel too worried about braking. Last year I caught and/or dropped a number of people on the wet descents. The EC descents are very long and fast but like many Sierra descents they don't have a lot of tight turns.
> 
> There have been a number of other races with epic climbs and descents in NorCal. The gnarliest descent I've done in a race is in the Mt Hamilton road race. The east side is 2000' descent in 4 miles- steep and very technical. There are a lot of crashes. The race organizers station EMTs and radio operators along the descent. I've not felt a need for discs there either, though one time when a vehicle got on the course on the descent and tried to out run us rather than pulling over, I had to brake much more than usual and my carbon rims got quite hot.
> 
> My rain training bike has rim brakes and aluminium rims. If I trained a lot in the rain, like living in Seattle, I'd probably get a disc brake bike. I've yet to feel the need for one for racing.


I've ridden the Sierra a few times, also in Bishop and Mammoth areas, and that's that I thought too. Most of those descents are wide sweeping fast turns, but not technical. If it gets wet, then it gets tricky, but this is due to a lack of traction, not a lack of bracking.

Now, in Socal, I've done Mt Wilson, Mt Baldy, plenty of times. Eg, Mt Baldy that 2000' descent in 4 miles, extremely fast with 18-20% grade leading right into a 180 degree hairpin requiring major braking effort, no problem for me with rim brakes. But to be fair, I use aluminum wheels, always for the moutain. I've seen guys on Chinese carbon rims explode though, so I guess you can say disc would have saved them. But then again, I'm one who thinks carbon wheels don't belong on 99% of the bikes out there because they're more troublesome and noisy than aluminum.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> false sense of security will do that to ya. If mtb'ers are an indication, then I fully expect more than a handful of pros will be locking their rear in a switchback and eating pavement. Also, I expect some guys will be trying to be hero and do a late-braking takeover manuver, only to eat shtt. Watch.


Yup. Discs will allow guys like Sagan to go even faster downhill. Everyone else will be riding beyond their abilities to keep up with them.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BikeLayne said:


> *On the weight thing I believe many of the Pro bikes are adding weight to make the weight limit so I figure there will be no penalty there*. For your average cyclist riding disc brakes they will be on a heavier bike especially in the 2K range.
> 
> TT bikes will continue to be outfitted with calipers on because of the aero dynamics.
> 
> ...


Not all pros bike are under the 15lb limit. The smaller sized bikes are, but the larger ones are struggling to be under this limit.

Furthermore, the UCI is already considering lowering the 15lb limit. Once they lower this limit, then it will be interesting for rim brakes again. Say they lower it to 13lb, then will riders feel compel to go with rim brakes? btw, I'm just guessing at the 13lb figure, but why not seeing how even amateur cyclists can build his own 12-lb bike with off the shelf parts, providing he's willing to spend.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> yep, mountain bikers don't know how to ride bikes or "control their speed" and that is why you never see them doing well in the mountains stages of road races. Good observation!


oh I see lots of those awesomely "precise" mtb brakers, that you spoke of earlier, on the dirt trails who for some mysterious reason like to precisely skid their rear wheels at every switchback. yep, the precision of disc brakes are clearly undeniable on the trails. Good observation!

what a joke, go to youtube and see a bunch of mtb eating dirt because they don't know what braking is, disc ain't gonna buy you skills, eh.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

The thing that is missing in all of this is that consumers, not the sanctioned racing community, are making their preference clear regarding this issue. The UCI is late to the party. Bikes with hydro disc brakes are beginning to take over the high end recreational bike market. 

It is very easy to theorize about disc brakes. An elementary understanding of physics is not enough to provide understanding of why a small solid disc with 10 times the PSI of a rim brake would work better/more accurately. A large number of older mountain bikers made the same anti-disc statements 15 years ago.

It's very hard to find actual users of Shimano's hydro disc brakes who dispute their superiority when riding/racing where braking is important. Let's face it, group rides with long climbs or twisting descents are races for most participants. Strava transforms even solo rides into races. If a cyclist is not among those who find enjoyment in having a go with riding friends, or if you live in the flat lands, you may well never feel the need for better braking.

As with MTBers, the anti-disc road crowd will eventually understand the physics and feel the same embarrassment that us MTBers felt 15 years ago. For many, the desire to understand the concept will only come with experiencing their superiority.

Bringing cable activated discs into the conversation clouds the issue because, while many of them are good, many combinations are poor to pathetic. It would be very possible for someone riding these brakes to concluded that the entire disc brake movement is nonsense.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> The thing that is missing in all of this is that consumers, not the sanctioned racing community, are making their preference clear regarding this issue. The UCI is late to the party. Bikes with hydro disc brakes are beginning to take over the high end recreational bike market.
> 
> It is very easy to theorize about disc brakes. An elementary understanding of physics is not enough to provide understanding of why a small solid disc with 10 times the PSI of a rim brake would work better/more accurately. A large number of older mountain bikers made the same anti-disc statements 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


eh you speak like you're like an mtb god who knows everything supreme about the benefits of disc, and the roadies don't know nothing about the benefits of disc, and so you need to enlight us? Oh pahleez. I ride motorcycles, with huge shiny twin rotors up front. Ever brake at 120mph transitioning into a turn with knee dragging the ground, trail braking and all? Makes all your mtb braking experience look like.. kiddy stuff. Spare us the godly mtb examples, ok commander. Some of us roadies alreayd know disc and their application. Now how about telling your mtb buddies to not skid at every switchback??


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

So, tell us again about the size of your Johnson--we never tire of hearing about it--nor do we tire of people who have a need to tell us about it.

If you should ever get to the point where you are comfortable that you've convinced everybody, maybe you could get around to telling us about your hydro road disc brake experience on bicycles.


aclinjury said:


> eh you speak like you're like an mtb god who knows everything supreme about the benefits of disc, and the roadies don't know nothing about the benefits of disc, and so you need to enlight us? Oh pahleez. I ride motorcycles, with huge shiny twin rotors up front. Ever brake at 120mph transitioning into a turn with knee dragging the ground, trail braking and all? Makes all your mtb braking experience look like.. kiddy stuff. Spare us the godly mtb examples, ok commander. Some of us roadies alreayd know disc and their application. Now how about telling your mtb buddies to not skid at every switchback??


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Nope. Considering that you can still buy brand new 5-speed cassettes, this aint happenin' any time soon and certainly not by 2017.

Also, I have to dispute the last paragraph of that article. I have known people who test rode new bikes recently and said they didn't like the feel of disc brakes.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

den bakker said:


> well whether they eat pavement or a car. not sure why that would matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that's called riding above your skillset. No equipment gonna save your a**


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> So, tell us again about the size of your Johnson--we never tire of hearing about it--nor do we tire of people who have a need to tell us about it.
> 
> If you should ever get to the point where you are comfortable that you've convinced everybody, maybe you could get around to telling us about your hydro road disc brake experience on bicycles.


blah blah blah. Funny every time a discussion of disc brakes takes place, there'll be bound to be some "mtb disc brake gurus" showing up to enlighten the "rim brake" roadies folks about the superior of disc braking, superior modulation, and yet they the mtb'ers don't see that with all the braking superiority, they still lock up their wheels at every switchback. Is this how you mtbers plan to use disc to ride on the road too? stay away the hell from me. How about you guys learn how to control your bike around a switchback the proper way insteading of sliding around and scaring hikers shttless as you're on the verge of ditching the bike? But of course, when I say I also ride motorcycle (and also mtb) and I've experienced disc braking at higher speed, and I know their benefits, and I don't care for them on a friggin road bike, you of course resort to the Johnson-size thing. That how it works?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> Yup. Discs will allow guys like Sagan to go even faster downhill. Everyone else will be riding beyond their abilities to keep up with them.


Sagan is a natural genius when it comes to bike handling. Some guys are just natural, he's one of those guys. If Joe Weekend thinks they can ride like Sagan now that they put on hydro disc, say hello to ER room and plastic surgeon now.

If disc go on road bikes, it's because more of the case of manufacturers wanting to sell new stuff, than it's about the technological benefits for the road. Don't tell me the majority of road cyclists ride wet alps passes everyday. But if you're a manufacturer, imagine selling the hype of the benefits of hydro disc (and electroshifting) to the mass, now suddenly all the gramps, the juniors, the working dads, and mom, suddenly their current bike is not safe because it has the "outdated rim brakes", gotta go out and get the lastest upgrades to disc, and of course electo shifting while we're at it too. What's not to like, if you're the seller.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> that's called riding above your skillset. No equipment gonna save your a**


correct and was the point. and people locked up before disks. they will with. not sure what you think it will prove.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Sagan is a natural genius when it comes to bike handling. Some guys are just natural, he's one of those guys. If Joe Weekend thinks they can ride like Sagan now that they put on hydro disc, say hello to ER room and plastic surgeon now.


I'm not talking about Joe Weekend. I'm talking about the rest of the Pros. Sagan will go faster downhill with Discs. And the rest of the Peloton will try as well. Likely with catastrophic results.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

tlg said:


> I'm not talking about Joe Weekend. I'm talking about the rest of the Pros. Sagan will go faster downhill with Discs. And the rest of the Peloton will try as well. Likely with catastrophic results.


Right. Same principle that explains why football players get more head injuries than rugby players. Just pushing the limits out further is not the same thing as making something safe. It's generally the opposite.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Nope. Considering that you can still buy brand new 5-speed cassettes, this aint happenin' any time soon and certainly not by 2017.


i think the question is....will technology stop moving forward on caliper brakes.

of course you'll always be able to get them.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

i'll never ride in a group with donnie disco and his new hydro's....


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Calm down. Everything will be better in the morning.

We are impressed with your first hand observation and testimony about MTB bikers skidding around hairpins--a clear indication that they and both motocross and flat trackers could use some riding lessons from someone with your wisdom and expertise. 

I'm pretty sure the pro peloton will be wanting to get some lessons from you very soon. Do keep your cell phone handy.

Incidentally, I have been on hydro disc road brakes for two full seasons now. During each of those seasons I've spent about 55 days training with various friends in the mountains around Santa Ynez in the winter, 30 days training in Washington's Cascades and 15 days riding the passes of the Dolomites with two close friends in the spring and early summer (seven of those passes will be part of the Giro this year) and several easier rides in the Cascades in the late summer. Do tell us about your experience on hydro disc brakes on road bikes?



aclinjury said:


> blah blah blah. Funny every time a discussion of disc brakes takes place, there'll be bound to be some "mtb disc brake gurus" showing up to enlighten the "rim brake" roadies folks about the superior of disc braking, superior modulation, and yet they the mtb'ers don't see that with all the braking superiority, they still lock up their wheels at every switchback. Is this how you mtbers plan to use disc to ride on the road too? stay away the hell from me. How about you guys learn how to control your bike around a switchback the proper way insteading of sliding around and scaring hikers shttless as you're on the verge of ditching the bike? But of course, when I say I also ride motorcycle (and also mtb) and I've experienced disc braking at higher speed, and I know their benefits, and I don't care for them on a friggin road bike, you of course resort to the Johnson-size thing. That how it works?


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Nope. Considering that you can still buy brand new 5-speed cassettes, this aint happenin' any time soon and certainly not by 2017.
> 
> Also, I have to dispute the last paragraph of that article. I have known people who test rode new bikes recently and said they didn't like the feel of disc brakes.


I have recently changed my mind of this subject matter. Once the disc brake craze peaks, riders will be desperate to get rid of their now obsolete rim brake bikes, to the point where they'll accept pennies on the dollar. Imagine getting a Colnago C60 for $100, or a Pinarello Dogma for $75? I say get rid of those archaic rim brake bikes now before their worthless and you'll have to pay someone to cart them off


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Not all pros bike are under the 15lb limit. The smaller sized bikes are, but the larger ones are struggling to be under this limit.
> 
> Furthermore, the UCI is already considering lowering the 15lb limit. Once they lower this limit, then it will be interesting for rim brakes again. Say they lower it to 13lb, then will riders feel compel to go with rim brakes? btw, I'm just guessing at the 13lb figure, but why not seeing how even amateur cyclists can build his own 12-lb bike with off the shelf parts, providing he's willing to spend.


Then the Pro's can just push more weight in addition to a decrease in aerodynamics. If it proves to be safer for them that might work out. However on the home front I am just going to stick with the bike I own.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

If I had to bet, I'd say there will be more crashes caused by rolled tubulars than in the past. Time will tell if the improved precision of hydro discs will compensate for higher speeds in the hairpins. I think we will see two different techniques and approaches to hairpins that could cause some problems as well--especially is the early races like the Giro. 

It should get mostly sorted out by mid season.


tlg said:


> I'm not talking about Joe Weekend. I'm talking about the rest of the Pros. Sagan will go faster downhill with Discs. And the rest of the Peloton will try as well. Likely with catastrophic results.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

factory feel said:


> i'll never ride in a group with donnie disco and his new hydro's....


Boy, that'll be their loss!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> Calm down. Everything will be better in the morning.
> 
> We are impressed with your first hand observation and testimony about MTB bikers skidding around hairpins--a clear indication that they and both motocross and flat trackers could use some riding lessons from someone with your wisdom and expertise.
> 
> ...


So what are you saying, you've got a bigger Johnson than aclinjury?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Maybe mtb'ers would actually learn how to control their speed, maybe they wouldn't have to emphasize to each other not to "erode" the trails while keeping doing it. Disc don't enable skills to the skilless, ehh!


This SOOO much. It really sounds like a few people on this thread have NO idea how to brake or handle a bike in adverse conditions and think disc brakes will magically solve this dilemma!

It's so...misguided.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> yep, mountain bikers don't know how to ride bikes or "control their speed" and that is why you never see them doing well in the mountains stages of road races. Good observation!


So aclinjunry is routinely watching dudes that fishtail around mtn bike trail turns before going on to do well in mtn stages of road races? He's riding with some pretty elite company, then!

Or.... perhaps you are pathetically twisting his words and creating ridiculous fallacies that have nothing to do with what's actually been said. 

Very disingenuous.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

No matter how you spin it, his thesis is that mountain bikers don't know how to ride or brake properly and therefore know little that applies to road riding. I was pointing out that there may be a flaw in his observation (like Peter Sagan and a hundred others).


pedalbiker said:


> So aclinjunry is routinely watching dudes that fishtail around mtn bike trail turns before going on to do well in mtn stages of road races? He's riding with some pretty elite company, then!
> 
> Or.... perhaps you are pathetically twisting his words and creating ridiculous fallacies that have nothing to do with what's actually been said.
> 
> Very disingenuous.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

And speaking of the consumer market... what do you figure the odds are that, given how much tricker disc brakes are to set up and work on that there will be an increase in injuries from home mechanics botching some aspect of disc set up/maintenance? Or will the LBSs of the world realize their wet dream when selling these that everyone will now be bringing their bikes to the shop for brake maintenance?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> This SOOO much. It really sounds like a few people on this thread have NO idea how to brake or handle a bike in adverse conditions and think disc brakes will magically solve this dilemma!
> 
> It's so...misguided.


Sort of like the way people with 4WD and AWD think they can drive on snow and ice like it's summertime. I saw all those 4WD and AWD vehicles with ABS and traction control wiped out off the highway in a snow squall.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

OldChipper said:


> And speaking of the consumer market... what do you figure the odds are that, given how much tricker disc brakes are to set up and work on that there will be an increase in injuries from home mechanics botching some aspect of disc set up/maintenance? Or will the LBSs of the world realize their wet dream when selling these that everyone will now be bringing their bikes to the shop for brake maintenance?


An unfortunate trade off compared to rim brakes. :yesnod: A millimeter too loose, and they max out the levers; a hair too tight and they'll rub the disc. Rim brakes are so easy to adjust compared to discs.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

It all depends on your cadence and twitch! If both are self adjusting (like hydro discs) you might do fine till everything xplodes. Everyone agrees that is why slow cadence and fast twitch works best with discs! That and 8 speed friction shifters.


Fredrico said:


> An unfortunate trade off compared to rim brakes. :yesnod: A millimeter too loose, and they max out the levers; a hair too tight and they'll rub the disc. Rim brakes are so easy to adjust compared to discs.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> It all depends on your cadence and twitch! If both are self adjusting (like hydro discs) you might do fine till everything xplodes. Everyone agrees that is why slow cadence and fast twitch works best with discs! That and 8 speed friction shifters.


Gosh, I wasn't aware that hydraulic disc brakes are self adjusting. Technology forges ahead. I'm waiting for them to go wireless!


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> It all depends on your cadence and twitch! If both are self adjusting (like hydro discs) you might do fine till everything xplodes. Everyone agrees that is why slow cadence and fast twitch works best with discs! That and 8 speed friction shifters.


Ah right! Self-adjusting and you never need to change pads or bleed lines - neither of which require special tools or skills. :yesnod: Honestly people who don't think this is going to be an issue must live right next to their LBS, have lots of spare bikes to ride, and plenty of cash to pay for brake work. 

Or just don't mind missing a few days of riding while their bike is in the shop aka not real cyclists.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Changing pads is much faster than on rim brakes. You simply remove one screw and easily pull the old pads, push back the pistons with a thick putty knife, slide the new ones in, replace the screw and squeeze the levers several times until they have self adjusted.

In two years of riding mostly steep climbs and descents, I've yet to bleed the brakes or have any reason to think they need it. When I detect that it may need to be done, I'll likely take my bike to the shop and watch them do it the first time as I hate to read Shimano manuals. After that, I suspect it will be as easy as others have said it is. My shop rarely makes me wait for service.

I haven't taken my Tarmac sl3 off the wall in my den for nearly two years. Disc brakes have not caused me to miss a day of riding. Neither has Di2.


OldChipper said:


> Ah right! Self-adjusting and you never need to change pads or bleed lines - neither of which require special tools or skills. :yesnod: Honestly people who don't think this is going to be an issue must live right next to their LBS, have lots of spare bikes to ride, and plenty of cash to pay for brake work.
> 
> Or just don't mind missing a few days of riding while their bike is in the shop aka not real cyclists.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

OldChipper said:


> Ah right! Self-adjusting and you never need to change pads or bleed lines - neither of which require special tools or skills. :yesnod: Honestly people who don't think this is going to be an issue must live right next to their LBS, have lots of spare bikes to ride, and plenty of cash to pay for brake work.
> 
> Or just don't mind missing a few days of riding while their bike is in the shop aka not real cyclists.


like most other things concerning bikes, a 1 minute youtube search would have gone a long way: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsqlEYJeLQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbi1HQMQIBo
is that really such daunting tasks?


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

SwiftSolo said:


> Changing pads is much faster than on rim brakes. You simply remove one screw and easily pull the old pads, push back the pistons with a thick putty knife, slide the new ones in, replace the screw and squeeze the levers several times until they have self adjusted.


Aw come on, now you guys are just messing with me. How is that faster than rim brakes? Plus I more than suspect you're describing an ideal situation when there are many other things than can complicate the process.

And how is that video simpler than ANYTHING associated with installing/maintaining/adjusting cable-actuated rim brakes????? Which BTW you can do with tools pretty much anyone has in their garage right now. No syringes, reservoir doo-hickeys, angling the bike just right etc. etc. etc. 

Put down the crack-pipe boys. Y'all are high enough.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Gotta hand it to those who've never used hydro discs but fancy themselves as experts (or x-spurts). Did you guys stay at a Holiday Inn?


pedalbiker said:


> This SOOO much. It really sounds like a few people on this thread have NO idea how to brake or handle a bike in adverse conditions and think disc brakes will magically solve this dilemma!
> 
> It's so...misguided.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> So aclinjunry is routinely watching dudes that fishtail around mtn bike trail turns before going on to do well in mtn stages of road races? He's riding with some pretty elite company, then!
> 
> Or.... perhaps you are pathetically twisting his words and creating ridiculous fallacies that have nothing to do with what's actually been said.
> 
> Very disingenuous.


there's a lot of noobtalks from Swiftsolo. He's misguided guy. He like a rookie that just discovered disc, and now he's preaching on and on about how disc has saved his life. His experience with hydrodisc boils down to 2 seasons of using them on the road. He probably ride with some mtb buddies that fishtail around every switchbacks and thinks that's so cool that disc is so awesomely powerful that they can fishtail and kick up a cloud of dirt. Homeboy probably doesn't realize that I've been doing mtb for 10 years and close to that in motorcycle. Oh shht what the f* do I know about braking at 120 mph coming into a corner on dual rotors on a 600cc. I mean, surely, fishtailing on a mtb around a switchback at 5 mph and barely in control, has definitely requires some skillz right there, skillz courtesy of the awesome modualation of disc, eh. It's like watching the rookies talk at the track. They tend to think they're slow because the lack horsepower or lacking brakes or tires. While some of that is a factor, the main factor is,,,.. skills.

Now here comes the examples of descending the Dolomites and Alps D'huez in the muddy rain. Yeah, like 99% of the cyclists out there will be riding in this condition daily.

hey, do we have any train drivers or airplane drivers in here? Maybe we can hear them making the cases for air and reverse thrust brakes too. After all, what's good for train and planes, has to be ten times gooder for bicycles.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Rashadabd said:


> FWIW, it sounds like it is a done deal for the pros as of today:
> 
> UCI approves widespread disc brakes use in 2016 professional peloton | Cyclingnews.com


58% approve of discs at the road races, 42% disapprove. I guess the argument will be solved after a year of "testing" in the pelotons. I'd guess misgivings about shorter braking times would be a simple matter of adjusting the feel to stay with the flow. Remains to be seen if discs will encourage riders to descend faster or wipe out less on the turns.

Technology marches on!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

OldChipper said:


> Aw come on, now you guys are just messing with me. How is that faster than rim brakes? Plus I more than suspect you're describing an ideal situation when there are many other things than can complicate the process.
> 
> And how is that video simpler than ANYTHING associated with installing/maintaining/adjusting cable-actuated rim brakes????? Which BTW you can do with tools pretty much anyone has in their garage right now. No syringes, reservoir doo-hickeys, angling the bike just right etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Put down the crack-pipe boys. Y'all are high enough.


I posted those videos, I never claimed it was "simpler". I asked " is that really such daunting tasks?" (sic). But by all means if that puts you off the road for days... well, what can I say.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

OldChipper said:


> And speaking of the consumer market... what do you figure the odds are that, given how much tricker disc brakes are to set up and work on that there will be an increase in injuries from home mechanics botching some aspect of disc set up/maintenance? Or will the LBSs of the world realize their wet dream when selling these that everyone will now be bringing their bikes to the shop for brake maintenance?


Don't tell that to all the mountain bikes over on mtbr that work on their own brakes without injuring themselves. You may jinx them.

seriously, you have no clue about working on discs. It's really not hard. Mechanical discs are very easy to adjust or replace pads. Hydro discs are often even easier to adjust and replace pads. Now, bleeding some models of hydro discs can be a bit off a pain, but that's something that doesn't usually need to be done more than once a year or two.

For the average Joe, discs will not cost any more in maintenance than rim brakes. Most shops charge the same to adjust either. Or with just a little practice they'll be able to work with their discs just as easy as their rim brakes.

No, the issue for racing will be when swapping out wheels to get the brakes not to rub on the disc. Unless it's rubbing real bad, it's not actually an issue that would allow you down, but psychologically, many would think it is if they hear it, so they'll be bothered by it. For teams, that may mean extra work making sure all rotors are spaced exactly to avoid rub when their own wheels are substituted, but neutral wheels will always be a crapshoot as far as avoiding any noise from the pads rubbing the rotor.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

OldChipper said:


> Aw come on, now you guys are just messing with me. How is that faster than rim brakes? Plus I more than suspect you're describing an ideal situation when there are many other things than can complicate the process.


Replacing disc pads is as fast or faster than replacing rim pads. Period. 



> And how is that video simpler than ANYTHING associated with installing/maintaining/adjusting cable-actuated rim brakes????? Which BTW you can do with tools pretty much anyone has in their garage right now. No syringes, reservoir doo-hickeys, angling the bike just right etc. etc. etc.


It appears you are greatly confused on the process. You don't need syringes or reservoir doo-hickeys to replace disc pads. Just a screw driver or hex key. 
Bleeding is more akin to replacing cable housing. Things you don't do too often.

Bleeding requires special tools. But so does replacing cable housing. A bleed kit is less than the cost of housing cutters.
I'd much rather bleed brakes (rarely) than replace cable housing. You can bleed brakes much faster than replacing cable housing.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

After reading the various arguments I think that the Pro's should use disc brakes since they actually race in all kinds of weather. I suppose it could be a nightmare for the mechanics and roadside wheel replacements but they will work out the best system in a short time. 

However for myself the Cons' outweigh the Pro's for disc brakes. If I buy a new frame sometime I will stick with caliper brakes.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

To replace caliper pads you have to screw with precise orientation both longitudinally and athwartships. Also, to replace cable housings you have to remove bar tape and then have to cut new housings, cut the cable and adjust the attachment.

You'll never do any of this with Di2 and hydro discs. There are no cables or housings. Hydro pads are self aligning and self adjusting.

That does not mean that you can always use wheels with a different brand of discs or different hub manufacturer without loosening two screws, squeezing the levers and tightening the screws back up. You have to do that with different wheels on rim brakes as well. Now wheel width or brake track angle is not a factor.


OldChipper said:


> Aw come on, now you guys are just messing with me. How is that faster than rim brakes? Plus I more than suspect you're describing an ideal situation when there are many other things than can complicate the process.
> 
> And how is that video simpler than ANYTHING associated with installing/maintaining/adjusting cable-actuated rim brakes????? Which BTW you can do with tools pretty much anyone has in their garage right now. No syringes, reservoir doo-hickeys, angling the bike just right etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Put down the crack-pipe boys. Y'all are high enough.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

disc brake noise/squeal, oh the joy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-7jVpJikRQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6tfl2lvEo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA

now here's a guy with both a front and rear noise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNj4Zx00hbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kre7V0_MDHs

Nothing like breaking the early morning still air with some disc squealin'


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> disc brake noise/squeal, oh the joy
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-7jVpJikRQ
> 
> ...


What these videos all have in common is they got lube/grease/oil on their brakes. In the first video the guy says the shock blew a seal and leaked.
Guess what, get lube/grease/oil on your rim brakes and they squeal like a banshee too. 

Of course the second video isn't disc squeal at all. It brake rub, which doesn't make much noise. Not really any different than brake rub on a rim brake.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> I'll quote one of the pro's here:
> 
> "It's not the brakes that are the limiting factor, it's the tires. Having disc brakes is just going to make that worse."



As more riders wisely move to wider tires, this becomes a moot point as long as the tire's thread count is high for a supple casing. 

The argument for wider tires running lower pressure is already won. The anti-disc brake knuckle draggers are the same type that argued against pneumatic tires and multi-speeds in days past.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

Look, yet another thread about road disc brakes.








Have fun and play nice, kids!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> What these videos all have in common is they got lube/grease/oil on their brakes. In the first video the guy says the shock blew a seal and leaked.
> Guess what, get lube/grease/oil on your rim brakes and they squeal like a banshee too.
> 
> Of course the second video isn't disc squeal at all. It brake rub, which doesn't make much noise. Not really any different than brake rub on a rim brake.


and public road has oil on them, and the dirt and grim on public roads have oil. This ain't mtb dirt here. And these examples are the just most offending, most unbearable situations. And sure rim pads rub too, but fixing them requires giving the caliper a twist, a 5 second job. Fixing the pad rubs on a disc system requires either new pads, reshimming the calipers, maybe even new rotor if it's warped, and it sure hell ain't 5 second job. 

But before we even get these, there will be plenty of instances where there will be a persistent squeal, just not as obnoxious. Want more examples of disc brake annoyances? Head over to Mtbr brake forum and read them, eh. Reading the pro-disc posts in here, one would think disc brakes are set-n-forget kinda thing. And if any issue comes up, it's a quick fix. Sorry, reality of disc brakes ain't like so.

10 years of mtb biking, I know what I'm talking about. Done plenty of bledding and effin' around to fix stupid squeals. Pahleez.

When was the last time anyone see any rim brake issues on the road? Almost never. I'd say that's a pretty damn reliable braking system.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

SwiftSolo said:


> Hydro pads are self aligning.


stop already, you're reminding me of trump.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> and public road has oil on them, and the dirt and grim on public roads have oil. This ain't mtb dirt here. And these examples are the just most offending, most unbearable situations.


lmao All those videos were MTBs that were squealing. Guess they're riding on oily dirt. 
Oil on the roads doesn't get on disc pads anymore than it gets on rims. If your rim brakes aren't squealing from oil, neither will your discs.




> 10 years of mtb biking, I know what I'm talking about. Done plenty of bledding and effin' around to fix stupid squeals. Pahleez.


So we're measuring pedigree's? Pahleez. 16yrs of MTB'ing. But unlike you I also have road disc. Ironlically they don't get oil on them from the road. 



> When was the last time anyone see any rim brake issues on the road? Almost never.


Funny you should mention that. My rim brakes were squealing last week.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Rim brakes survive, Q.R. disc brakes do not.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SwiftSolo said:


> To replace caliper pads you have to screw with precise orientation both longitudinally and athwartships. Also, to replace cable housings you have to remove bar tape and then have to cut new housings, cut the cable and adjust the attachment.
> 
> You'll never do any of this with Di2 and hydro discs. There are no cables or housings. Hydro pads are self aligning and self adjusting.
> 
> That does not mean that you can always use wheels with a different brand of discs or different hub manufacturer without loosening two screws, squeezing the levers and tightening the screws back up. You have to do that with different wheels on rim brakes as well. Now wheel width or brake track angle is not a factor.


I found taking out the old pads and installing new pads was a piece of cake, probably faster than changing out rim brakes, especially the good ones where you have to push the old pads out of an aluminum holder and slide the new ones in. :frown2:

We had problems when a disc got warped, usually from ham handed installations of a wheel. Bending them back into true was sometimes so challenging, we just put a new disc on. I don't care what the science guys say, pad rubbing on disc is a terrible state to be riding in, a real insult when rider is going 110% in a race. Forget it.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Gotta hand it to those who've never used hydro discs but fancy themselves as experts (or x-spurts). Did you guys stay at a Holiday Inn?


Nah, just hand it to the guys that actually know how to ride and race their bike and aren't arguing out their rears on subjects they're clearly ignorant about.

And I've used hydro brakes on mtn. bikes for a couple of years now. Mtn bike riding =/= road riding.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Remains to be seen if discs will encourage riders to descend faster or wipe out less on the turns.
> 
> Technology marches on!


Can you please explain how brakes have anything to do with how fast you take a turn?

There are a lot of people pandering that argument that clearly haven't thought through how your brakes (assuming they're functional at slowing you down, which all half-way adjusted brakes are) have virtually nothing to do with how fast you can take a turn.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Tig said:


> Look, yet another thread about road disc brakes.


What I don't get is why somebody started a new one when there was already a very active one at the top of the thread list with essentially the same conversation (btw this thread is the first of the two in question).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I've had it with all this talk about what kind of brakes to use.

You'll be finding me over at the fixed\single speed forum where nobody is interested is using no brakes.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

pedalbiker said:


> Nah, just hand it to the guys that actually know how to ride and race their bike and aren't arguing out their rears on subjects they're clearly ignorant about.
> 
> And I've used hydro brakes on mtn. bikes for a couple of years now. Mtn bike riding =/= road riding.


Nono, pedalbiker. :nono: Swift has cred, man. Srsly, if he rode up that Italian mountain with all those switchbacks and came back down it, disc brakes shined, I'm sure. Let's be fair. :yesnod:

He's right about maintenance. They're virtually maintenance free, just change the pads when the brake lever gets too much play. And hydraulic lines are bullet proof compared to cables from what I've seen.

And nobody has brought up the advantage of eliminating the braking surfaces on rims. So one can build a lighter wheel, shaving off weight where it matters most.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Sheeesh! Another extended RBR p!ssing match over old vs. new technology. Time to go take a nap.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> Gosh, I wasn't aware that hydraulic disc brakes are self adjusting. Technology forges ahead. I'm waiting for them to go wireless!


mechanical calipers while not self adjusting, you are able to adjust the piston(s) distance to the rotor (ie, like the SRAM Avid BB5 calipers on my MTB). At least with the SRAM's centering the caliper to the rotor isn't difficult either. Just loosen the fastening bolts, squeeze the lever, then tighten up the bolts again.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Well it will be fun to watch and see how it goes and what the Pro's have to say about it. Apparently Nibali wants rotor covers so that just makes it more fun.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

OldChipper said:


> Rubbish. I actually think my DA9000 brakes are BETTER than the disk brakes on my CX bike! Better modulation and less finger effort.


People who never ride in the rain shouldn't have an opinion on disc brakes (and chain wear).


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

dracula said:


> People who never ride in the rain shouldn't have an opinion on disc brakes (and chain wear).


All cyclists get caught in the rain and wear out chains. Opinions about disc brakes are allowed. 

However I am not anti disc brakes but my bike has calipers so it's a done deal for me. Maybe on the next bike in 20 or 30 years if I can still swing a leg over. It will be fun watching it all in this coming racing season.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

velodog said:


> I've had it with all this talk about what kind of brakes to use.
> 
> You'll be finding me over at the fixed\single speed forum where nobody is interested is using no brakes.



FWIW, I'd love to install a disc brake and fork on my fixed gear. Even with upgraded brake pads, the rim brake on it is weak even with crank back pressure. As a track and road fixed gear rider since 1990, I'd never consider riding one on the road without a front brake.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

pedalbiker said:


> Can you please explain how brakes have anything to do with how fast you take a turn?
> 
> There are a lot of people pandering that argument that clearly haven't thought through how your brakes (assuming they're functional at slowing you down, which all half-way adjusted brakes are) have virtually nothing to do with how fast you can take a turn.


You're right.  I was just picking up on what the racer said in the link, that rider could wait until the last second before slowing to make the turn! :nono:

When I went down a mountain years ago, I soon learned not to ride the brakes, but let the speed pick up and brake in short bursts at the last minute just before the turn, to keep the glue on my tubbies from not melting and the tire rolling off the rim in the corner. Also found bike would go faster through the turn than I thought, so braking before the turn wasn't all that big a deal. I'd wait until I had to slow down because otherwise it would have been a waste of effort: speed immediately picks up after releasing the brakes!


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I am shopping for a bike for a 3 y/o and went to 3 bike stores today and did not see anything that appealed to me in that market. However one store had a Roubaix disc for 4.5K and a Roubaix caliper for 3.5K. Both Ultegra but different model designations. I checked them both out and the caliper bike was very light and appealing. The disc bike had some serious weight issues. It seemed like there was lead in the front end of it somehow. Basically the tanker with disc brakes did not appeal to me. 

Not sure what to do about the kids bike as I do not want to go from store to store. Its for my Granddaughter from Santa. I will talk to me daughter and see what she thinks.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

BikeLayne said:


> I am shopping for a bike for a 3 y/o and went to 3 bike stores today and did not see anything that appealed to me in that market. However one store had a Roubaix disc for 4.5K and a Roubaix caliper for 3.5K. Both Ultegra but different model designations. I checked them both out and the caliper bike was very light and appealing. The disc bike had some serious weight issues. It seemed like there was lead in the front end of it somehow. Basically the tanker with disc brakes did not appeal to me.
> 
> Not sure what to do about the kids bike as I do not want to go from store to store. Its for my Granddaughter from Santa. I will talk to me daughter and see what she thinks.


Kids bikes are all the same, so you're going to be frustrated trying to find a cool one, technology wise. 16" wheeled bike suitable for kids age 4-6 or so, all come with training wheels, don't have hand brakes or shifters. Those are added on some 20" wheel bikes, and they don't come with training wheels. 24" wheel bikes are just like their adult cousins: shocks, gears, hand brakes, the whole thing. Heck, a 3 year old would ride a 12" wheel bike, as basic as the 16".

So there's really little choice except cute colors and accessories like plastic baskets. Schwinn, Trek, Giant, Diamondback, they're all the same quality in kid's bikes, pretty much.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think there's a much higher confidence that caliper brakes will do what they are designed to do than disc brakes which could have a host of issues at a bad moment. Hydro disc is simply a more complex system. Caliper brakes have been around far longer and there are fewer 'moving parts' so to speak


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Kids bikes are all the same, so you're going to be frustrated trying to find a cool one, technology wise. 16" wheeled bike suitable for kids age 4-6 or so, all come with training wheels, don't have hand brakes or shifters. Those are added on some 20" wheel bikes, and they don't come with training wheels. 24" wheel bikes are just like their adult cousins: shocks, gears, hand brakes, the whole thing. Heck, a 3 year old would ride a 12" wheel bike, as basic as the 16".
> 
> So there's really little choice except cute colors and accessories like plastic baskets. Schwinn, Trek, Giant, Diamondback, they're all the same quality in kid's bikes, pretty much.


My Granddaughter is a very tall 3y/o. Maybe 8-10in over other kids the same age. However she has some 6ft 5in uncles so it makes since. Not on my side. What I wanted is one that is a Red bike with 16 in wheels as later on my Grandson could just take it over. All the Pink, purple bikes will not do when it gets passed down to her little brother and the black ones will not do for her. Anyway the search is on for a Red one. No tech wanted, just training wheels and something she can pedal about. 

I will probably just call around.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

BikeLayne said:


> My Granddaughter is a very tall 3y/o. Maybe 8-10in over other kids the same age. However she has some 6ft 5in uncles so it makes since. Not on my side. What I wanted is one that is a Red bike with 16 in wheels as later on my Grandson could just take it over. All the Pink, purple bikes will not do when it gets passed down to her little brother and the black ones will not do for her. Anyway the search is on for a Red one. No tech wanted, just training wheels and something she can pedal about.
> 
> I will probably just call around.


Good luck! 

One appreciates these early attempts by bike manufacturers, presumably because that's what customers want, on early sexual identity training. Why pink? Teal? Why not red? Why not leave all the feminine flowers and colors off the bike, so parents can pass it along to a boy? Most girls don't give a damn about whether the bike is feminized or masculinized. They probably haven't decided yet.  Half the girls looking in the shop I worked liked the boys bikes as much, maybe better. But they'd get the girls bike, because they were girls.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Look on line for isla bikes. They are very good and light weight (about 30% lighter than the competition).

Incidentally, I have two grandchildren who both learned to ride at 3 years old. It is out belief that you'll do well to never let them use training wheels. Little bikes with no pedals is now the preferred method of teaching kids. Do take the time to look at this method.


BikeLayne said:


> My Granddaughter is a very tall 3y/o. Maybe 8-10in over other kids the same age. However she has some 6ft 5in uncles so it makes since. Not on my side. What I wanted is one that is a Red bike with 16 in wheels as later on my Grandson could just take it over. All the Pink, purple bikes will not do when it gets passed down to her little brother and the black ones will not do for her. Anyway the search is on for a Red one. No tech wanted, just training wheels and something she can pedal about.
> 
> I will probably just call around.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

SwiftSolo said:


> Look on line for isla bikes. They are very good and light weight (about 30% lighter than the competition).
> 
> Incidentally, I have two grandchildren who both learned to ride at 3 years old. It is out belief that you'll do well to never let them use training wheels. Little bikes with no pedals is now the preferred method of teaching kids. Do take the time to look at this method.


Thinks for the tip. I will bring that up with Mom and Dad. I can see it would be a better system.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SwiftSolo said:


> Look on line for isla bikes. They are very good and light weight (about 30% lighter than the competition).


This is good advice.

High quality children's bikes by Islabikes


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

I think Islabikes makes one of those crankless bikes for little ones and if I remember right, it has lever brakes (most have no brakes).


BikeLayne said:


> Thinks for the tip. I will bring that up with Mom and Dad. I can see it would be a better system.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

"Kids bikes are all the same, so you're going to be frustrated trying to find a cool one, technology wise."

I lucked out big time when my niece was that age. At that time the Lion King was the latest kid's movie and she was always running around roaring like a lion. So I bought her a Trek Mt Lion 20" wheeled bike which had cat paw prints all over it (grips, saddle, even the tire treads). I was the best uncle ever that Christmas...


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