# Campagnolo and Shimano Compatibility Possibilities



## handsomerob

Ok, I always read about the incompatibility of these two brands, but I have recently read about its possibility and feasibility and it got me wondering. I took some information for Sheldon Brown's site and I would like someone to poke holes in this theory.

Campy 9 speed cogs center to center are 4.55mm apart and Shimano is 4.34mm apart.
This is a difference of .21mm per shift. If one were to set the middle cog as the perfect alignment, wouldn't 4 shifts up or down only result in a total error of .84mm. Could an "offset" of less than a mm be an issue?

The same logic for 10 speed cogs proves even less of a difference of .17mm per cog for a total of only .68mm on one side (4 shifts) to .85mm on the other side (5 shifts).

Basically I would like to know how well a 9 speed shimano cassette would work with a 9 speed Campy gruppo. Any replies are appreciated. Thanks.


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## AlexCad5

Getting tired of paying for campy casettes? They are rediculously expensive. You will probably get some gears to work while others at the opposite end of the range will skip. Constant fiddling with barrel adjusters may work, but why bother. Cough up the extra cash.

I'm currently running DA10 shifters and Ultegra 10 rear derailleur with Record front derailleur and Record Cranks. I'm pretty sure a Campy rear d will work as well. The pivital items are the cassette and Shifters have to be the same.


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## ultimobici

handsomerob said:


> Ok, I always read about the incompatibility of these two brands, but I have recently read about its possibility and feasibility and it got me wondering. I took some information for Sheldon Brown's site and I would like someone to poke holes in this theory.
> 
> Campy 9 speed cogs center to center are 4.55mm apart and Shimano is 4.34mm apart.
> This is a difference of .21mm per shift. If one were to set the middle cog as the perfect alignment, wouldn't 4 shifts up or down only result in a total error of .84mm. Could an "offset" of less than a mm be an issue?
> 
> The same logic for 10 speed cogs proves even less of a difference of .17mm per cog for a total of only .68mm on one side (4 shifts) to .85mm on the other side (5 shifts).
> 
> Basically I would like to know how well a 9 speed shimano cassette would work with a 9 speed Campy gruppo. Any replies are appreciated. Thanks.


Simple. Find a mate who has a Shimano 9 rear wheel and try it. Then hand wheel back and continue to use Campag.

If you're balking at the cost of Campag cassettes, try changing the chain more frequently. I notice many posters complaining about Dura Ace's longevity & replacement cost. I don't get it as I'm using 4 year old cassettes with no problem. Mind you I change my chain every 4 - 6 months and don't use Shimano chains. Sram PC89R's last longer and stretch less easily in my experience.

As far as cassettes go, use a Chorus all steel to get the best value.


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## dgsbikes

I have used the JTEK Shiftmate and it worked great. Shifting was much better with the Shiftmate than without it. I used it with Campy 9spd components and Shimano wheels. <http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm>


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## C-40

*best solution...*

The shiftmate is the obvious solution if you've got shimano wheels or if you're just too cheap to buy campy cassettes.

Although the mismatch at the end of four shifts may not sem like much, it's over 20% off position, which is quite a bit. It also makes adjusting the RD much more critical.

Changing chains more frequently will only help to increase cog life if you're currently running your chain beyond the allowable 1/16" per foot elongation. Depending on the cost of the chain you select compared to the cost of the cassette, using more than 2 or 3 chains per cassette is usually not cost effective. Alternating between two chains can increase the useful life of any cassette, because it eliminates the extreme mismatch of placing a new chain on worn cogs.

Ti cog life is much shorter than steel, so if you want to save real money, consider buying Chorus, Centaur or Veloce cassettes instead of Record.


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## bigbill

*My solution*

I have racked up around 14K miles on my shimagnolo commuter. I run 9 speed chorus ergo levers, RD, and FD. I use SRAM 9 speed chains and SRAM 9 speed cassettes on shimano hub wheels. Using a 12-23 cassette, the only noise issues are when I have used the 21 or 23 and a quick tap of the thumb lever fixes that. Once the chain starts to elongate due to wear, it goes to hell pretty fast and starts skipping. I usually ride a chain for 1500-1800 miles due to the dirty conditions I commute through and the red volcanic dirt that wears everything down. For whatever totally unproven and unscientific reason, I find the SRAM cassettes work better with the setup. I did use an ultegra 9 cassette for about six months, but found when I switched out wheels to a SRAM cassette wheel, it just shifted better. Can't explain why. Both commuter wheelsets currently have brand new SRAM cassettes on them along with a new chain on the commuter. FWIW, I use the cheap ones that cost me around $30 with a steel lockring.


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## Argentius

Short version:

It works fine with 9 speed.

10 speed works not so fine.


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## Guest

I have a number of wheels with Shimano hubs ( I try not to admit this) and all of my bikes are Campy equipped.

I run American Classic 10 speed cassettes with Campy 10 and it works flawlessly.

I have also used respacer kits from Branford Bike to space a 9 speed Shimano CAssette for use with Campy 10. You get 9 speeds rather than 10 - and my thought is who cares, I have the range.

The spacer kits also work flawlessly. They are available in 8, 9 and 10 speed versions. For about $25 I think they are great.

These two methods work well for me, I have never tried the Shiftmate but understand it works well too.


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## handsomerob

Well, I finally picked up a Campy 9 speed cassette and haven't yet got all the parts for the Colnago that the Zondas are intended for. I figured what the hell.... give it a shot.

WELL........

With a new Campy cassette on there, it shifts better than it did with the used Shimano cassette. I mean it is spot on, no skips, no jumps, just good solid gear shifting. 

To think that I can throw these Zondas on any of my rigs makes my giddy as a school girl. :blush2: 

Here they are on the Spicer that I recently finished.


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## fmw

The problem is more than cassettes. I assume you want to use Campy control levers but you rear wheel has a Shimano hub? If so, you either need to change the cassette carrier on the hub or use a Shiftmate. I've tried to do what you want to do and it works to a degree but things get dicey at the extreme ends of the cassette. That produces, noise, missed shifts and excessive wear on the cogs. It's OK for a temporary solution until you do something better. The best approach is to change the cassette carrier and use Campy cassettes.


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## Squidward

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946


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## shotojs78

*campi-shimano*

Hi, is it possible to have a campi chorus shifters with campi rear derailleur and front D + crank shimano and brakes caliper shimano or campi??


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## Lab Worker

Hopefully this will help with some of the Campy / Shimano questions:

http://wheelworks.co.nz/drivetrain.php

ps, there are 94,371,840 combinations that it will sort through....


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## nick450hp

I have campy 10sp cranks, campy rear der., campy front der., campy shifters, and a shimano compatible hub, with a shimano cassette (and a jtek #1 shiftmate), but what chain should I use?

The website you posted says a shimano chain will cause problems with the campy chainrings, but a SRAM 10spd chain will work just fine with the mix of both parts. Is this true? I'm kinda stuck as to what chain to get: Wipperman, Shimano, KMC, or SRAM. I know the Campy UN chain will not work at all with this combo, so which other chain will?

Thanks :thumbsup:


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## C-40

*???*

How do you know that a Campy UN chain won't work? I've read postings that said it will work just fine. All modern 10 speed chains now have the same 5.9mm width so that it not an issue.

FWIW, I've used the original Campy 10 chain, the new Campy UN, Shimano DA 10 and KMC DX10SC chains with FSA cranks and Campy cassettes with no problems. Right now I've got a KMC on my new Campy compact crank and it's working great.

If you want a quick link, try the KMC. At this point, I don't know how long it will last compared to the best I've tested (Campy) but it certainly shifts well.


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## nick450hp

C-40 said:


> How do you know that a Campy UN chain won't work? I've read postings that said it will work just fine. All modern 10 speed chains now have the same 5.9mm width so that it not an issue.
> 
> FWIW, I've used the original Campy 10 chain, the new Campy UN, Shimano DA 10 and KMC DX10SC chains with FSA cranks and Campy cassettes with no problems. Right now I've got a KMC on my new Campy compact crank and it's working great.
> 
> If you want a quick link, try the KMC. At this point, I don't know how long it will last compared to the best I've tested (Campy) but it certainly shifts well.


I always thought Shimano cassettes used 6.1mm chain, and the new Campy stuff used 5.9mm chain? So the KMC DX10SC can be used with both the Shimano cassette and the Campy cranks? If so, that would be great. I am not looking for any super special race chain, just something durable and of good quality. (I had been looking at KMC's, but was constantly seeing the X10SL which is rather pricey, the DX10SC is much cheaper!)

Thanks


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## shotojs78

I saw a road bike this morning..... with shifter campi chorus, dura-ace brakes caliper, shimano front Der. shimano crankset. chorus rear Der. cassette and chain are shimano..everything work perfectly....


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## kriskros

*Campy 10spd and shimano 9spd*

Hello, I have been using shimano dura ace 9spd cassette with campy 10spd shifters and campy derailers. works extremely well under most demanding conditions. 

Just purchased 11spd campy chorus shifters and rear derailler in order to test compatibility with shimano/sram 10spd cassettes. i will post as soon as tested.


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## C-40

*???*

I don't see much point in that. The cog spacing on Shimano and SRAM cassettes is 3.95mm, while the new Campy 11 has been reduced from the 4.12mm used for 10 speed to only 3.8mm. You don't have to do any tests to know that a RD shifting to 3.8mm spacing won't match up well to a cassette with 3.95mm spacing. In general, an overshifting setup is more tolerable than a undershifting setup like this would be. The key with these mismatched setup is too try to center the RD on the cassette, so the error is split between up shifts and downshifts.

There are already J-tek shiftmates to correct the cable pull, so Campy 10 shifters be used with other mixed setups. Campy makes the new ultrashift ergopower design in a 10 speed models too. They've got all the quality of the higher level 11 speed models. 

I can't imagine why anyone would want to spend the money to buy 11 speed shifters and RD and not take the last step to an 11 speed cassette. If all that is desired is a 10 speed system, buy the new 10 speed shifters.


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## Carbune

C-40 said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would want to spend the money to buy 11 speed shifters and RD and not take the last step to an 11 speed cassette. If all that is desired is a 10 speed system, buy the new 10 speed shifters.


 He also need a Campagnolo compatible freewheel or hub or rear wheel. And don't forget the 11 speed chain.

I use a similar combination with kriskros. Campagnolo Centaur 10sp shifters, Campagnolo Centaur 10 speed rear derailleur, 10 speed Shimano 105 chain, and Sram 9 speed cassette. The initial plan was to use 10 speed Shimano 105 12-27, but is not working correctly. Instead on Sram 9 run correctly. 

It is strange, because on Sram 9 speed cassette, the cog spacing(4.42mm) is far away from spacing on Campa 10 speed (4.12mm). The Shimano 10 (3.95mm) is more close to Campa cog spacing.

kriskros, don't forget the 10 speed chain, and i think is better to keep the 10 speed rear derailor, is built for the 10 speed chain.
Good lack !


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## kriskros

*Campy 11spd and shimano 9spd, 10spd*

Hello, I have some exciting news to report:

Campagnolo 11 speed shifters and 11 speed rear derailler with any 10 speed chain work with Shimano 10 speed and 9 speed cassettes!!!

Here is the setup I have: Chorus 11spd shifters, Chorus 11spd rear derailler, Shimano Ultegra 10spd chain CN-6600 and Shimano Dura Ace 10spd 11-23 cassette CS-7800 and/or Shimano Dura Ace 9spd 12-21 cassette CS-7700.

C-40 is just a depressed salesperson full of anger and negativity over the fact that she can't sell the $300 campy titanium 11spd cassette because people can get $100 shimano cassette. Look missy, not everyone here is a wallstreet type with unlimited resources. The fact is people can ride whatever setup they like. I know for a fact that campy doesnt offer certain cassette ratios available in shimano and vice versa. Certain wheel manufacturers dont offer campy versions, or whatever. 

Good luck all and please report any other interesting setups... peace.


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## Guest

kriskros said:


> Hello, I have some exciting news to report:
> 
> Campagnolo 11 speed shifters and 11 speed rear derailler with any 10 speed chain work with Shimano 10 speed and 9 speed cassettes!!!
> 
> Here is the setup I have: Chorus 11spd shifters, Chorus 11spd rear derailler, Shimano Ultegra 10spd chain CN-6600 and Shimano Dura Ace 10spd 11-23 cassette CS-7800 and/or Shimano Dura Ace 9spd 12-21 cassette CS-7700.
> 
> C-40 is just a depressed salesperson full of anger and negativity over the fact that she can't sell the $300 campy titanium 11spd cassette because people can get $100 shimano cassette. Look missy, not everyone here is a wallstreet type with unlimited resources. The fact is people can ride whatever setup they like. I know for a fact that campy doesnt offer certain cassette ratios available in shimano and vice versa. Certain wheel manufacturers dont offer campy versions, or whatever.
> 
> Good luck all and please report any other interesting setups... peace.


It never ceases to amaze me when new people join the board and as their first foray into the community decide to lash out at established and very knowledgeable members of the forum.

You make a lot of assumptions in this post, none of which, to the best of my knowledge are true.

C-40 is one of the most consistently helpful members of this community, with a deep rooted knowledge matched by few.

C-40 to the best of my knowledge does not sell any bicycle components and most likely could not care less if your set up works or not. I do know that C-40 is concerned about making sure that readers have full and complete knowledge and understanding with which to make decisions.

You may want to back up, re-read your post and maybe do some editing.

The secret to a happy and valued existence on the forum is to be judicious in criticism, and respectful of others. You can even do that if yu dis-agree with them.

My view, for your 2nd post on the board, this is pretty shameful.


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## C-40

*really...*

Your post certainly shows your ignorance and it's good for a laugh. 

Campy 11 cog spacing is 3.8mm, Shimano 10 is 3.95mm and Shimano 9 is a huge 4.32mm. You could probably get by in a pinch with a Shimano 10 wheel as neutral support replacement with a Campy 11 drivetrain, but the shifting wouldn't be great. You could have spent a lot less money with the new Centaur 10 ultrashift ergopower and any Campy 10 speed RD. It would shift better than the setup you created, since it overshifts, not undershifts, but I would still use a J-tek shiftmate to correct the RD travel.

FWIW, I'm a retired mechanical engineer, I don't sell anything and I'm not a she. I do have the money to buy whatever I want, but don't own any Super Record 11 parts, just Record and Chorus 11. The SR group just doesn't offer much for the money, IMO. I bought Chorus 11 cassettes for about $110, so I have perfect shifting and the cogs last a lot longer. The life of Ti cogs is about half that of steel, so I never buy them anymore. I would like to have seen 11-27 or 11-29 11 speed cassettes from Campy, but those may come next year, along with a medium cage RD. You can't expect everything in one year. They put out a huge effort to offer three 11 speed groups and new shifters for all five groups all in one year.


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## kriskros

C-40 wrote: 
You don't have to do any tests to know that a RD shifting to 3.8mm spacing won't match up well to a cassette with 3.95mm spacing.

toomanybikes wrote: 
C-40 is one of the most consistently helpful members of this community, with a deep rooted knowledge matched by few.

Look my friend "toomanybikes", C-40 is a champion on paper. He has been feeding you very useful THEORY. However practice or real life is different. In this case C-40 is just plain WRONG. And you my friend have been punked by C-40. 

Peace buddy.


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## Val_Garou

Heads up, people.


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## Carbune

kriskros said:


> Campagnolo 11 speed shifters and 11 speed rear derailler with any 10 speed chain work with Shimano 10 speed and 9 speed cassettes!!!













I was hoping for some useful information


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## Guest

kriskros said:


> C-40 wrote:
> You don't have to do any tests to know that a RD shifting to 3.8mm spacing won't match up well to a cassette with 3.95mm spacing.
> 
> toomanybikes wrote:
> C-40 is one of the most consistently helpful members of this community, with a deep rooted knowledge matched by few.
> 
> Look my friend "toomanybikes", C-40 is a champion on paper. He has been feeding you very useful THEORY. However practice or real life is different. In this case C-40 is just plain WRONG. And you my friend have been punked by C-40.
> 
> Peace buddy.



One more dim-witted troll added to my ignore list.


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## Carbune

I have managed to make working a 10-speed Campa ergopower, a 10-speed Campa rear derailleur, and a 10-speed Shimano cassette.
Making a grove where the cable sit in ergopower is the solution for less cable pull/click. It is not the easiest way, but i have now a Shimagnolo groupset


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## theone29

here is a question for C-40 or anyone, i owned a set of bontrager aeolus 5.0 and a set of the race x lite, both have shimano freehub. i am setting a new bike up with 2009 campy chours 11. is their a cheaper converstion kit i can buy other than the one bontrager is selling for $160? thanks.


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## strathconaman

Here is something that I have always wondered:

If we can swap out parts in our ergo levers to make them 8,9 or 10 (and at some point, 11) campy compatible (see http://branfordbike.com/page.cfm?pageID=71) then why can't someone manufacture cams that would make ergo levers compatible with shimano cassettes? With a campy derailleur it should be trivial to design...there seems to be a market...


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## Carbune

I smell that on branfordbike, they disassemble the ergopowers, and sell the parts.
If a manufacturer make a part identical or similar with one from Campagnolo, Campagnolo will sue that company for patent infringement, or, pay royalties.
And it is a very small market for manufacturing the index gear component.


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## C-40

*info....*



strathconaman said:


> Here is something that I have always wondered:
> 
> If we can swap out parts in our ergo levers to make them 8,9 or 10 (and at some point, 11) campy compatible (see http://branfordbike.com/page.cfm?pageID=71) then why can't someone manufacture cams that would make ergo levers compatible with shimano cassettes? With a campy derailleur it should be trivial to design...there seems to be a market...


J-tek has the problem covered with their shiftmate device. If you take the index gear out of a Campy ergo lever, you will find it to be quite complicated in construction. The cost to produce this part in small quantities would be every high and the market for it quite small.

There is another method to reduce the travel of a Campy 10 RD, so it will more closely match a Shimano cassette. To make the lever arm on the RD effectively longer, the cable needs to be moved further away from the clamp bolt. I've never experimented with the amount, but it might require something as simple as laying a short piece of shift cable next to the clamp bolt. Another option might be a special washer with a gooved filed in it, to move the cable a little further from the clamp bolt.

The 2009 ultrashift levers have no interchangeable parts with the older model shift levers. Campy will never make an index gear so those old shifters will operate an 11 speed drivetrain. They want to sell you the new shifters that work better and require less maintenance.

Current prices for the 2009 shifters, bought from the UK, are so low, that anyone wanting to change to the new shifter design should do it now. I've bought new Chorus 11 speed shifters for as little as $210 from Ribble, including a cableset worth $40. I then sold my used Record levers for $100 on E-bay. That makes the net cost about $70. A new index gear alone, costs $50 or more. The new Centaur 10 speed levers cost even less, for those wanting to stick with 10 speed, but get the new shifters.


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## strathconaman

I actually run campy 10 shifters on a shimano 9 drivetrain for my cross bike with the pinch bolt flipped around. It runs like a charm.

What I would really like is to run Campy shifters with SRAM mountain derailleurs. There was a tandem company that ran this with modified derailleurs (I suspect by messing with the derailleur arm length as you suggest).


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## strathconaman

I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that campy makes and sells the replacement parts. As for the market for these cams...well JTEK seems to think there is a market...


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## Squidward

C-40 said:


> There is another method to reduce the travel of a Campy 10 RD, so it will more closely match a Shimano cassette. To make the lever arm on the RD effectively longer, the cable needs to be moved further away from the clamp bolt.


Do a Google search for Hubbub. That's what this type of cable installation is called.


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## C-40

*9/10*



Squidward said:


> Do a Google search for Hubbub. That's what this type of cable installation is called.


The hub bub routing is to make a 10 speed campy shifter work with 9 speed shimano, not 10 speed. The hubbub mod would produce far too much travel for a Shimano 10 cassette.

With a very small change to the lever arm length, you could eliminate the overtravel that occurs with a Campy 10 drivetrain, shifting a Shimano 10 cassette.


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## C-40

*J-tek*



strathconaman said:


> I actually run campy 10 shifters on a shimano 9 drivetrain for my cross bike with the pinch bolt flipped around. It runs like a charm.
> 
> What I would really like is to run Campy shifters with SRAM mountain derailleurs. There was a tandem company that ran this with modified derailleurs (I suspect by messing with the derailleur arm length as you suggest).


The problem with this idea is that SRAM RDs use a uniform cable pull, while Shimano and Campy use nonuniform pulls. Just correcting the actualtion ratio will not produce perfect results.


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