# Group Ride. Was I in the wrong?



## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Perhaps Mr. Sprinter didn't know you were part of the group ride. That wouldn't explain why he got bent about you passing him though. You got me on this one.

You'll have to ask your friend to find out what's up with that. I'm guessing there's another version of this story. Not to imply you're BSing.....just that two people can see the same exact thing totally different from each other.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

How bizarre.

I don't do a ton of group rides, but I've always been welcomed, including sitting in in other team's rides. I'm on an aging steel LeMond and rarely have matched kit on.

Anyway, I'm with the others. Stick to groups that don't suck. :wink5:


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

Passing someone on the type of group ride (even if they were riding steady) you describe is OK. I would definitely guess they didn't know you were on the ride.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

'Roid-rage asshats....no thanks :Yawn:

**


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## Drattner (Feb 11, 2010)

First a little background. Over the past year I have been attending a group ride every sunday with my local bike shop. I ussually ride with the B group for the first half and try to keep up with the A group on the way back. 

Last night I promised a friend that I would meet him for the Trek store's group ride. I looked the ride up before i left and it stated:

Ride Name: Tuesday night ride
Day: Tuesdays
Time/Location: 6pm @ Papillion Trek Store
Level: Fast group and moderate (@ 16 mph average) no drop
More Info: Trek Bicycle Store 

I showed up 15 mins early and got the bike ready. It was 98 degrees with 20-30 mph winds last night so I went into the store to use the restroom and filled up my waterbottles. I asked about the ride and was told details would be given out by the ride leader in the parking lot. I finished up in the store and started doing laps in the parking lot waiting for someone to make an announcement. 

I talked with a few of the guys before the ride but they really didn't want to have anything to do with me. I noticed that I stuck out like a sore thumb at this ride. I was the only one not in a full Trek Store Kit and the only one that was not riding a Madone. 

Anyway I came around the building (its a small building) and everyone was gone. I hammered and caught up with the main group 2 miles down the road. I drafted for a bit until the guy in front of me would slow down then sprint to catch the group. He did this a few times till finally when he slowed down I just passed him. He pulled up next to me asked me what I thought I was doing and I told him "riding". I got a few dirty looks from the other guys when we stopped at the light so I just let them go. I never saw a B team that day (I did pass maybe 3 people catching up to the main group) and I never saw the A group after I dropped. 

Now that my blabbering is over, was I in the wrong? Should I have not passed the guy who kept slowing down and sprinting? Did I break some sort of group ride law? 

Thanks

Ratt


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Sounds to me like the only thing you did wrong was accidentally pick a bunch of jerks to try to ride with.

What happened to the friend who invited you?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Sounds like they didn't want to on their ride. So the group ride law you broke was joining a group that didn't want you. But I would definitely pass someone who kept dropping off the back and then sprinting back on. (In fact, I have done that.) That kind of behavior breaks group ride law, negates the whole point, and it will wear you out a lot faster trying to hang on. If someone wants to do that crap, they can do it behind me.


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## Drattner (Feb 11, 2010)

My friend didn't show b/c his son had a baseball game. To his defense he did call me before the ride but I didn't see the missed call till I got home.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

some group rides are friendly and inclusive...this one wasn't.

but, it didn't cost you anything to find out. so, just look for some other group to ride with. 

reminds me of trying to sit at the cool kid's table in the junior high cafeteria...rejection ensued.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Sounds like you need to get a Madone, get their team kit, and become an arrogant SOB.

Don't worry about it. You did nothing wrong. Keep riding with the genuine cool group.


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## Vee (Jun 17, 2010)

In for hearing what your friend has to say about this...


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## Drattner (Feb 11, 2010)

Its good to know I didn't do anything wrong. I did try to talk to a few of the guys before the ride but they all seemed to be more interested in talking to each other. 

Talked to my friend today at lunch. He said he didn't try and keep up with the A group but found that the B group wasn't very organized. He also said he ended up turning around early b/c he wasn't sure what the route was. 

Were going to try another store ride next week and post about our experiences on our local city cycling Blog. Omaha has a group ride section under their fitness section. 

Thanks for all the feedback.


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## dclutter1 (Jun 6, 2011)

I was thinking about going to that exact ride last night. Now I'm glad I passed. I didn't buy my bike from them and the attitude you described is part of the reason.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I wonder if the guy that kept slowing down was intentionally trying to wear you out, so you'd drop behind. Maybe you should join the ride again, and drop the entire group (if you can). Let them know that overpriced bikes and kits don't make a better rider.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Peanya said:


> I wonder if the guy that kept slowing down was intentionally trying to wear you out, so you'd drop behind. .


Clearly. Or rather, he was just hoping to drop him one of the times he surged, and hoped the OP wouldn't be able to chase back. Considering OP had chased for 2 mies to catch the group, this was not a well-thought-out strategy. 

A bunch of jerks, as I said. The sort who make this sport occasionally deserving of its bad reputation.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Drattner said:


> ...............More Info: Trek Bicycle Store
> 
> full Trek Store Kit and .............riding a Madone. ......


Getting a sense of the issue?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I have ridden with that group many times, although not recently due to schedule issues. 

I would assume the B group would have been what you were looking for, but their attendance would have been diminished by the weather yesterday. 

The A group often consists of some of the best local racers. When they're there, the goal is working extremely hard and flawless pacelines. A lot of the riders in that group are the quiet type and not particularly social. Don't take it personally. 

If you're looking for something more social, the Bike Master's Wednesday and Bike Rack Thursday night rides aren't as fast, but more social and geared towards beginners.


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## mcsqueak (Apr 22, 2010)

I think if you want to have an elite "private" group ride, perhaps don't advertise it and have it leave at the same time, from the same location, as the "B" group ride?

To the OP, I don't think you did anything wrong, but I'd find a more friendly group to ride with. You should be able to find a group that rides hard but has nice folks in it without too much of a problem.


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## sw150 (Jul 29, 2009)

Check out Bike Masters. They have 2 rides a week and are a great bunch of guys. Its one of those kind of shops where you can go and just hang out. So much now the wife gets mad at me. 
http://www.bikemastersomaha.com/


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mcsqueak said:


> I think if you want to have an elite "private" group ride, perhaps don't advertise it and have it leave at the same time, from the same location, as the "B" group ride?


A good chunk of the local rides around here will have a strong A group and more of a recreational group taking off at the same time. Usually the first couple of hills will sort out who is in which group.


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## new_rider (Jun 8, 2011)

Sounds like you shouldn't let this bother you and just find a nicer group of people to ride with and who will enjoy your company.


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

I hate when cyclists act like that, thankfully not to often around where I'm from. Let it bother you, I would. They should not advertise even the A group slogan. They should just ride off and contact themselves with texts or facebook. Really sad that there are riders out there so stuck up on themselves like that. What a shame.


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

Luckily you get to choose whether to ride with them or not...sounds like an easy choice! This is supposed to be fun..unless you are getting paid.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Hooben said:


> Really sad that there are riders out there so stuck up on themselves like that. What a shame.


Since I know most of the riders personally, I can assure you that they're not stuck up. They're very serious and it's usually a great hammerfest. That's the goal of this ride with the A group. Unfortunately, the B group wasn't there, although I can't recall the B riders being particularly strong in numbers on that ride on a regular basis. They have a lot of miles to cover as fast as possible. They helped make me a stronger rider over the years.

That being said, there are all sorts of rides around town and the schedule has remained the same for quite a while, other than most shops finally putting an end to 5pm rides due to lower turnout, given work schedules.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

From the OP story I guess part of the problem is that they were't actually expecting to suddenly have him at the back of the group. A few words would have been good, though, explaining what the ride was about, and recommend OP to let the group go. I would not under any circumstances have let OP into the paceline, that's for sure.


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## Kai Winters (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd send your post, letter form, to the owner of the shop and the manager. I'd also include the forums link and ask if they thought this was respectful and appropriate for them to act considering it seemed to be part of the shop and reflects poorly on the shop, its' integrity and respect for others.

It would be interesting to see if they respond and how they respond.
Be sure to post their response here for us to read.

Not all shops are like that...matter of fact the vast majority welcome new riders and usually will tell a new rider, especially one that is unknown to the riders, what sort of ride it is, no prisoners, etc.
Shop rides are as much advertising for the shop as it is for the ride itself and welcoming new riders generally means sales and a new face/customer in the shop for at least a tube.

Too bad you were treated so rudely but it was nice that the "drop him" tactic didn't work...that must have been great to see...good on you mate.
Keep us informed.


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## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Since I know most of the riders personally, I can assure you that they're not stuck up. They're very serious and it's usually a great hammerfest. That's the goal of this ride with the A group. Unfortunately, the B group wasn't there, although I can't recall the B riders being particularly strong in numbers on that ride on a regular basis. They have a lot of miles to cover as fast as possible. They helped make me a stronger rider over the years.
> 
> That being said, there are all sorts of rides around town and the schedule has remained the same for quite a while, other than most shops finally putting an end to 5pm rides due to lower turnout, given work schedules.


Not stuck up to you maybe but to complete stranger that just wants to ride, according to the OP, pretty much a group of dicks. I guess it could be elitist or they just don't like new comers but regardless of skill level, sounds like they are jerks to people they don't know. Perhaps they just lack social skills.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Well.....you weren't on a Trek, so your chances of 'keeping up' were pretty slim.....those bikes are FAST!!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

forge55b said:


> Not stuck up to you maybe but to complete stranger that just wants to ride, according to the OP, pretty much a group of dicks. I guess it could be elitist or they just don't like new comers but regardless of skill level, sounds like they are jerks to people they don't know. Perhaps they just lack social skills.


Perhaps they're Cat 2 and 3 racers. We can play that game that all racers are snobs, but this is designed to be a very tough ride. Between the heat, wind, and still recovering from last weekend's efforts, I wouldn't have been able to hang with them, either. It's known for being one of the hardest local rides and that's not going to change. 

The racing scene here is very small and you tend to know everyone. As fast as they go, they want someone who they're confident can keep up as well as handle some very tight and fast pacelines. At these speeds, you can't afford to have mistakes. The selection process has kept this ride pretty safe overall. Prove that you can survive their pace, take pulls, and handle a paceline safely and you'll become a regular. 

It's unfortunate that the B group is so small with this group ride, but as I stated, there are others. Feel free to tell me about the guys I've been riding with for years, but this one is for the guys who are out to hammer and build fitness towards upcoming races. It's not a good one for getting into riding.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I have ridden with that group many times, although not recently due to schedule issues.
> 
> I would assume the B group would have been what you were looking for, but their attendance would have been diminished by the weather yesterday.
> 
> ...



I don't think he said anything on looking for a more social ride. 

Here are my observations over the past 20 years.

1. Team Kits are lame. Yea, wear them, but when people where them ALL THE TIME and do so in a group - be prepared for a bunch of jerks. I would put Trek team store kits at the very, very bottom.

2. Good riders know they are good and don't need to do crap like this. This is typical local jerk behavior. In this situation it's best to mess with them - have some fun - pull up to the group and ask "does this ride ever go fast?" 

2a. While we at it, that is having fun, speak only French and Italian - be like Kevin Klein in A Fish Called Wanda, just grab anything - cheese names, meal names, locations - but say them quick and fluid.

2b. Tell them you wanted to a get a madone, but they were all out of them at Toys R Us and Walmart

2c. Show up with a camel back, your stem turned up and your helmet pushed back - extra points if you can do toe straps - you must be able to keep up and throw in an attack - trust me, they will hate themselves.


Enjoy!!!!!!


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I was assuming from spade2you's description that this was not a double paceline for novices. I was also assuming that OP was a paceline novice. No offense.

In my club we don't paceline babtize people in flat out paceline training, but in more relaxed technical paceline training. Let them sit "in the bag" with a tutor explaining what's going on and then letting them in betwwn a couple of the most secure, calm and helpful riders we have.
Norway is btw probably the double paceline hell/nirvava on earth.

Edit: This post is an answer to clayton.cole23's answer #34 below. (Server's not very good at sorting posts in the right order nowadays.)


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## config (Aug 16, 2002)

Matador-IV said:


> Well.....you weren't on a Trek, so your chances of 'keeping up' were pretty slim.....those bikes are FAST!!


Too funny!!!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

They may have assumed at the start that they knew everyone who was leaving with them. It always takes time for a new rider to gain the trust of a group that's been together for awhile. My strategy would have been to stay on the back and not try to move up in the pace line until I had a good sense of how fast they really wanted to go. Let the riders who pull off get back in file ahead of me for awhile. If I'm strong enough and together enough to ride with them, then I'd move up and start taking my turns, and if not drop off into the next group they pass. 

FWIW, a ride posted with a 16mph minimum does not sound so exclusive, and if I were them I would not be surprised by or rude to new riders trying to come along. My favorite ride is a monthly century with a 22mph minimum, and those guys are not rude to newcomers or people not in the shop kit--new riders can either hang or they can't. Someone might suggest they stay to the rear or otherwise save their effort, but nobody gets the stink-eye. As a general rule, it's always good to be polite to newbies and strangers--you never know who is going to turn out to be tuning up a big motor.


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## clayton.cole23 (Feb 25, 2011)

kbwh said:


> From the OP story I guess part of the problem is that they were't actually expecting to suddenly have him at the back of the group. A few words would have been good, though, explaining what the ride was about, and recommend OP to let the group go. *I would not under any circumstances have let OP into the paceline*, that's for sure.


1. Ok, I don't get this. Why not let him in the pace line. If he can hold a line what is the problem? 

2. Not attacking you KBwh, but I ride in Italy, and we never ever have the sort of problems that people write about in this forum (states mainly I guess). ie wheelsuckers, piss poor attitude with new guys, not letting people in your pace line, yelling at people for silly reasons. I’m on a amateur club, and we never treat people that way, not even during the races. I go to the A group rides here of over 70+ riders and they ARE drop everybody rides and even still, it is friendly. On the A group rides we have a common belief that If you can pull at 45kph, by all means get up there. If not, hang on! I just don’t get it. Not that I want to go back stateside (I’m riding close to heaven) but I really can’t wait to get back and hammer on these jack ##s who really have to think they are god’s gift to cycling to act that way . 

BTW, Colorado was where I rode before and it was friendly too (disclaimer, I was not within 100miles of Boulder-nites).


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Fireform said:


> As a general rule, it's always good to be polite to newbies and strangers--you never know who is going to turn out to be tuning up a big motor.


I think as a general rule it's always good to be polite to other human beings, because it's the right thing to do, except in rare circumstances that demand different behavior. These guys may have had good reasons not to want the OP in their ride, but there's absolutely no excuse for not saying something to him and explaining. He tried to talk to them, and they just acted like rude jerks. There's no justification for that.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Agreed.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

We can try to blame them as much as we want, but it just wasn't the right ride for the OP, at least not yet. Had the OP showing up for a chit chat ride and trying to rip everyone's legs off, he would have been left to ride on his own as well. Find the right ride and stick with it.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

What does that mean? Because he was chit chatting at the begining and being friendly that he wasn't a strong rider. Come on man. One can be extemely competitive with their fellow man and have it be done in a nice manner. Being rude to a new comer or anyone for that matter is unacceptable. If its a team group ride (which it would seem it was) then it should be labeled as such and not advertised as a shop ride were all are welcome. WTF, just because I'm friendly...... Blah Blah Blah, you know people like this will always be like this. It doesn't matter what someone thinks or says. They sound like dicks to me and you can stick up for them all you want but it's just plain rude to act the way they did. Take off while the guy was behind the building? Niiice..... Good way to introduce people to the sport. 

"Had the OP showing up for a chit chat ride and trying to rip everyone's legs off, he would have been left to ride on his own as well."


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

sounds like you ran into a group of real dyckheads. oh yeah just wait out back while we take off in front. a-hole majorus. and mr spinter man, i have unfortunately run into that type before. and made efforts to keep my distance, when cyclists start doing strange shyt in close proximity, i usually go off throttle and give em plenty of space. and keep my steel helmet handy.

i agree with the above, eff em. or, if you want, you can get with the "leader" or the guy who posted the ride and give him a good wtf. or not, may not be worth the time...


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## easyridernyc (Jan 10, 2008)

Matador-IV said:


> Well.....you weren't on a Trek, so your chances of 'keeping up' were pretty slim.....those bikes are FAST!!


oh, i agree. 

+1


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## rcjunkie3000 (Sep 5, 2009)

Forget those sausages, find a group ride with chicks...Giggity! :thumbsup:

The ride should NOT have been advertised. It appears to have been a team ride and labled as such. I do agree that the team should have at least given the OP the low down on the ride when he attempted to communicate. That's just rude behavior to ignore him, team or no team. THIS is exactly one of the reasons "roadies" have this stigma of being called snobs, real bad for the sport.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

evs said:


> Good way to introduce people to the sport.


It's not a good introductory ride. 



rcjunkie3000 said:


> The ride should NOT have been advertised.


It has been advertised for years. All local rides are, although almost all riders know the days, routes, pace, etc.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rcjunkie3000 said:


> It appears to have been a team ride and labled as such.


Racers from other teams have always been welcome. Whenever a local club hosts their scheduled ride, it's not hard to notice that their team will generally show up in the biggest numbers. Last night, at another shop, their team dominated the numbers, but other teams were represented.


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## jswilson64 (May 20, 2008)

Matador-IV said:


> Well.....you weren't on a Trek, so your chances of 'keeping up' were pretty slim.....those bikes are FAST!!


So, Trek makes good bikes?


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## LandShark'n (Jan 10, 2011)

I can see both sides of the situation. As for the A group appearing to be snobs or elitists, it's usually not the case. They treat each ride as a bit of a competition and a new rider is going to be sized up accordingly. If I were the OP, I'd continue to join this ride but would probably ride with the B group (when one shows up). In time, he might find that the B group is too slow for his tastes and he's ready to roll with the big dogs. I don't blame these guys for not wanting to let him in yet; they don't know his riding style or his abilities yet and it's risky to ride in a fast, tight paceline with someone who might not be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'...


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

"They treat each ride as a bit of a competition and a new rider is going to be sized up accordingly."


Does this mean you can't be friendly and say HI and be generally nice to a fellow cyclist? Be nice and size him up. Smile and joke before dropping him.  Serioulsy, it was a tues night ride for cripes sake. I ride to have fun. Even racing can be fun. I do understand about someone getting shaking and not holding their line well. They could have easily asked him if he's ever done any groups rides, pace lines and what the pace was ect. Nobody asked those questions? It's not effing rocket science.....


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jswilson64 said:


> So, Trek makes good bikes?


Sort of a Roadbikereview meme. I don't think RBR thinks too much about them either way, although it's often humorous if you have a $$$$ bike, but some n00b looks down on it because it's not a Trek.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

LandShark'n said:


> I can see both sides of the situation. As for the A group appearing to be snobs or elitists, it's usually not the case. *They treat each ride as a bit of a competition and a new rider is going to be sized up accordingly.* If I were the OP, I'd continue to join this ride but would probably ride with the B group (when one shows up). In time, he might find that the B group is too slow for his tastes and he's ready to roll with the big dogs. I don't blame these guys for not wanting to let him in yet; they don't know his riding style or his abilities yet and it's risky to ride in a fast, tight paceline with someone who might not be ready for it.
> 
> I'm just sayin'...


Things must be different where you're from.

Where I ride the A riders have had and get enough real competition (if they want) in races that they don't need to scrath that itch during a group ride. 
It's generally only C riders who think they are A riders that have some sort of foolish initiation process for newbies just looking to ride.
A riders generally just go and if you're dropped they don't even notice and if you keep up you're treated the same as anyone else on the ride.

It's the same in most sports really. When I was playing hockey it was funny how most of the fights were in the real hack leagues whereas the true A players had been there done that and didn't need to prove anything at a recreational level.
I understand town line sprints and friendly trash talk with buddies during a group ride but I find people who treat them as real competition and 'size up' new riders are A riders in their own mind only.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> Things must be different where you're from.
> 
> Where I ride the A riders have had and get enough real competition (if they want) in races that they don't need to scrath that itch during a group ride.


You can't just race weekends and expect that to be enough. This one is excellent for race prep. Some climbing, a lot of power intervals, and a few sprint points.


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## LandShark'n (Jan 10, 2011)

Hank Stamper said:


> Things must be different where you're from.
> 
> Where I ride the A riders have had and get enough real competition (if they want) in races that they don't need to scrath that itch during a group ride.
> It's generally only C riders who think they are A riders that have some sort of foolish initiation process for newbies just looking to ride.
> ...


Indeed they are quite different where I'm from. Competitive athletes have it in their psyche to compete; even those of us who are less-than-competitive have a tendency to want to be first to the signpost sprint or the first to crest the big hill. It's human nature 'round here. I can't imagine getting "enough competition" that somehow this urge is suppressed when surrounded by one's peers.

Also, around here, the C riders don't think they're A riders...or if any do, it doesn't take long before they realize that they aren't. Nonetheless, on our nightly group rides, all of us start together and within the first few miles things are sorted out as to which group a rider belongs. Anyone is welcome to keep up with the A group if they can, but being realistic, those guys are in a different league than the rest of us.

Personally, I'll hang with the A group for the first 8 miles or so, then I back off to where I belong. Usually it's the B group, last night I was looking for a D group to draft off of.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> You can't just race weekends and expect that to be enough. This one is excellent for race prep. Some climbing, a lot of power intervals, and a few sprint points.


Yea you can. There is a difference between doing work and training and doing racing. Go do your climbing, your power intervals and sprints - no reason to be a male genital - unless of course you are insecure (which most races and riders are, we can't all be winners  )


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## Physix (Jun 9, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> Sounds to me like the only thing you did wrong was accidentally pick a bunch of jerks to try to ride with.


 for real


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## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It's not a good introductory ride.
> 
> 
> 
> It has been advertised for years. All local rides are, although almost all riders know the days, routes, pace, etc.


You say that but if I was there on vacation/business and wanted to attend a ride, this one fit my schedule, I show up expecting an advertised 16mph pace but instead it's a hammerfest. How the hell would I know that, and why should I be treated as such?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

mtrider05 said:


> You say that but if I was there on vacation/business and wanted to attend a ride, this one fit my schedule, I show up expecting an advertised 16mph pace but instead it's a hammerfest. How the hell would I know that, and why should I be treated as such?


I would feel sorry for anyone on vacation here. 

The avg. speed is an error and I don't know why it's posted as such. I suppose I could ask someone to change it, but not too many people check for these things since almost everyone who rides knows when, where, and how hard the local rides are. Like I said, it's a very small scene.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> Like I said, it's a very small scene.


Easy to see why.


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## Road Hazard (Feb 5, 2011)

What I find amusing about this thread is that Drattner apparently did belong with this group in terms of fitness. He solo'd and caught a group of "A" riders who had the benefit of a paceline. Then he matched the sprinter guy's blocking and accelerations repeatedly. 

It also sounds like he had a fair bit of group riding experience.

Drattner, I think you need to find a faster group actually.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> Easy to see why.


Yes, it's totally because of the Tuesday Trek ride and has nothing to do with the fact that few people ride.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Look, there's no reason to treat a rider who is new to the group like that. If he can hang, let him hang! If he can't, he'll drop off anyway. Why make anyone feel unwelcome? At least someone should have said that since he was new to their group they would prefer him to stay at the back at first. 

I am fortunate to live in a place where the "scene" is big. If I fall in with a pack of jerks or legends-in-their-own-minds there's always another peloton the next day if not around the next corner. As others have pointed out, really fast riders aren't threatened by a newbie and often go out of their way to offer tips, food, water, or whatever. If these guys want more riders in their scene, they should try to cultivate them. If they just want to rule their little fishbowl, the OP will hopefully look elsewhere. He did nothing wrong by trying to join this group and shouldn't have been made to feel that way.

That's the point several of us are trying to make. You, of course, are free to ignore it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

You can advise me on my scene as much as you'd like, but it's more a matter of people getting bikes, but they're too cheap as well as getting off the couch, but they're too lazy.

Had they told him that he's not ready for this ride, we'd be complaining about that, too. All y'all want to hear is how much of snobs racers are. If you want to hang with them you must prove you can handle yourself in tight quarters and at full speed. Failure to do so destroyed 8 bikes, sent one guy to the ER, and lots of road rash with a new guy's mistake in Lincoln.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> You can advise me on my scene as much as you'd like, but it's more a matter of people getting bikes, but they're too cheap as well as getting off the couch, but they're too lazy.
> 
> Had they told him that he's not ready for this ride, we'd be complaining about that, too. All y'all want to hear is how much of snobs racers are. If you want to hang with them you must prove you can handle yourself in tight quarters and at full speed. Failure to do so destroyed 8 bikes, sent one guy to the ER, and lots of road rash with a new guy's mistake in Lincoln.


Spade, some unsolicited advice, let it go. It was an advertised ride. Repeat after me: advertised ride. Done. No one needs to say anything else (though the Trek store is just rich). You want to have your own top-secret, invite only, wanna be alpha male, pseudo pro ride, then DON'T ADVERTISE. :idea:

You seem really defensive over this. Where was this again - I'd love to show up and have some fun with the little boys - hanging wont be an issue. :thumbsup:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ronderman said:


> Spade, some unsolicited advice, let it go. It was an advertised ride. Repeat after me: advertised ride. Done. No one needs to say anything else (though the Trek store is just rich). You want to have your own top-secret, invite only, wanna be alpha male, pseudo pro ride, then DON'T ADVERTISE. :idea:
> 
> You seem really defensive over this. Where was this again - I'd love to show up and have some fun with the little boys - hanging wont be an issue. :thumbsup:


It's not top-secret or invite only or most riders wouldn't be in the know or allowed to go there. It's not my fault or problem that all group rides are advertised or if it's not all up to date. 

This was my former team, so yes, I'll be a little defensive if that's ok with you. Will I allow some interw3b know-it-alls bash them? Nope. 

When you're ready for this ride, they'll let you in. 

As for them selling Treks, they sell a lot of them. I ride a Bianchi.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It's not top-secret or invite only or most riders wouldn't be in the know or allowed to go there. It's not my fault or problem that all group rides are advertised or if it's not all up to date.
> 
> This was my former team, so yes, I'll be a little defensive if that's ok with you. Will I allow some interw3b know-it-alls bash them? Nope.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like a few heros hijacked what's intended to be an open group ride. Why do they have to have a closed practice ride that coincides with what some store advertises as a group ride?

I can understand a closed group but hijacking a shop ride and 'unofficially' closeing it by acting like a tool to anyone new isn't the way to go about it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> Sounds to me like a few heros hijacked what's intended to be an open group ride. Why do they have to have a closed practice ride that coincides with what some store advertises as a group ride?
> 
> I can understand a closed group but hijacking a shop ride and 'unofficially' closeing it by acting like a tool to anyone new isn't the way to go about it.


It wasn't hijacked at all, but the B group just wasn't there, which wouldn't have surprised me with the heat and wind going on that day. The Tuesday ride has never had much of a B group, despite the Wednesday Trek store AND Bike Master's having huge B groups.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

spade2you said:


> You can advise me on my scene as much as you'd like, but it's more a matter of people getting bikes, but they're too cheap as well as getting off the couch, but they're too lazy.
> 
> Had they told him that he's not ready for this ride, we'd be complaining about that, too. All y'all want to hear is how much of snobs racers are. If you want to hang with them you must prove you can handle yourself in tight quarters and at full speed. Failure to do so destroyed 8 bikes, sent one guy to the ER, and lots of road rash with a new guy's mistake in Lincoln.


You know, I've been there. I understand that issue and I have the scars and fractures and bills to prove it. Just a month ago a noob went down right in front of me for no discernable reason and I had to hop him in a split second. But a guy on the back of the paceline isn't causing any wrecks and if they're really as fast as they think they are he'd stay there.

Other posters have this part right, too--if they don't want new people showing up, they shouldn't advertise the ride. A posted ride is an invitation, especially if the speed guideline is that low. Not the OP's fault that he took them at their word.

Not meaning to stir anybody up. The OP asked whether he did anything wrong, and I think we've pretty well established that he didn't.


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## aaric (Mar 10, 2011)

Fireform said:


> The OP asked whether he did anything wrong, and I think we've pretty well established that he didn't.


I don't know that...We're only hearing one side of the story. It's entirely possible the OP was hopping around like a chimp on crack and irritating everyone on the ride. In the least, I'd think the OP missed some clues that the group wasn't up for him tagging along.

The lack of support from his friend who invited him raises questions in my mind to what went on.

As for him keeping up....it's also entirely possible the group was still warming up.

To be clear, I'm not making accusations, just playing devil's advocate.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It's really not the OP's fault that the B group didn't show up. It's not the A group's fault, either. The real riding with the A group starts about 5-6 miles in since the goal is to get out of the city and to the good highways.

Edit: perhaps the numbers were low since the following day was 20 degrees cooler.


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## Road Hazard (Feb 5, 2011)

I admit I was trying to stir things up with my post about the OP keeping up. 2 miles is in warm up range.

Let's face it, it's a free country and nobody has to allow an unwanted rider in their pack. It's just that when you've been in a similar situation, the story makes you want to root for the underdog.

The A group did give the OP signals before the ride began, and the OP did get them. But that's part of getting into an A group. It is intimidating (more or less) and that serves a purpose. You have to have enough confidence in your abilities/fitness to persist. Not that all cocky riders are good riders, but riders who lack that confidence probably shouldn't be riding with the group. 

Yea the shop should edit their website, up the speed, or maybe even have the B group leader invite people to the A rides. Either way, getting into an A group is just another one of the challenges of cycling.


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## Shaba (Mar 16, 2011)

So, does anyone know anything about the Trek Store group ride in Schererville, IN that happens on Thursday nights? I'm planning on showing up when I get back into town in early July. Advertisement says 15 mph. I'm really new to road riding and hope there's a "B" group.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Must have went something like this...........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuvF113uty4&feature=player_detailpage


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I refuse to punish myself by keeping company with unfriendly people. Life's just way too short for that.


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## ebtromba (Aug 16, 2010)

lame.


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## ParkCity (May 11, 2011)

I am a novice bicyclist, and new to this forum. All I can say is wow - what a thread. I guess I am still confused by the "Advertised Ride" labeling of this event. If open to the public, shouldn't the group be willing to accomodate all public riders? And if they want to train, why not call it a "By Invitation" event? Sounds easy to me...

I am learning about bicycle racing, and of course am an enthusiast of Versus and all bike events on TV. However, I do notice that the sport seems to be ultra-competitive - even among the amateurs. I've run into this same alpha-male mindset on the golf course, but the simple solution there is to memorize the rule book. No one can argue with the rules of the USGA! 

So where is the rule book for cycling? Is it just he with the strongest legs is the prom king? In my town of Park City, we have lots of outdoor enthusiasts. Unfortunately, the road bike guys seems to have the most 'tude. Why is that? 

-Blake


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ParkCity said:


> I am a novice bicyclist, and new to this forum. All I can say is wow - what a thread. I guess I am still confused by the "Advertised Ride" labeling of this event. If open to the public, shouldn't the group be willing to accomodate all public riders? And if they want to train, why not call it a "By Invitation" event? Sounds easy to me...
> 
> I am learning about bicycle racing, and of course am an enthusiast of Versus and all bike events on TV. However, I do notice that the sport seems to be ultra-competitive - even among the amateurs. I've run into this same alpha-male mindset on the golf course, but the simple solution there is to memorize the rule book. No one can argue with the rules of the USGA!
> 
> ...


It's open to the public, but from the racers' perspective, they don't want to have to stop and wait a long time. It's easy to whip out the alpha male, pissing contest, etc,. but they've got a hard workout ahead of them and limited daylight to accomplish the route. Keep in mind that most local racers have jobs and families, so this workout may be very critical to their training. These guys are also very strong, so without being that competitive, they'll still blow newer riders out of the water. That's just how it is. 

My guess is that all rides are now advertised because many years ago they weren't advertised and it took a while to get in the know locally. 

The "rule book" is always controversial, but if you show up to a group ride, different rides will have different goals. There's a lot of trial and error, but expecting very strong racers to wait for a beginner is asking a lot. Expecting dedicated B riders is a novel idea, but if you become that dedicated, you'll ususally end up hanging with the A group.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

spade2you said:


> The "rule book" is always controversial, but if you show up to a group ride, different rides will have different goals. There's a lot of trial and error, but expecting very strong racers to wait for a beginner is asking a lot. Expecting dedicated B riders is a novel idea, but if you become that dedicated, you'll ususally end up hanging with the A group.



It's sooooooo simple, stop making it harder than it is - The rules are as follows: if it is an advertised ride AND if it is a ride out of the trek shop - there is absolutely, positively ZERO need for attitude. In fact, given the above two variables they should do everything to foster a newbie and turn him/her onto a trek. Done. Stop acting like it's a fast ride, cause it's not - it's an advertised ride out of a trek store - they have a public facebook page


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ronderman said:


> It's sooooooo simple, stop making it harder than it is - The rules are as follows: if it is an advertised ride AND if it is a ride out of the trek shop - there is absolutely, positively ZERO need for attitude. In fact, given the above two variables they should do everything to foster a newbie and turn him/her onto a trek. Done. Stop acting like it's a fast ride, cause it's not - it's an advertised ride out of a trek store - they have a public facebook page


If you don't think it's a fast ride, be my guest. After the abuse I took over the weekend, it was way too fast for me. Once they got going, they could easily have had to wait ~20 minutes at the regroup point. 

As for the advertising, I'll tell them that RBR complains about them and they need to stop advertsing it so people aren't hurt. Yes, they need someone to lead the B group, but I rarely have that day off and am only interested in the A group. 

Y'all can complain about this ride as much as you'd like, but part of the group ride process is finding the right ride for YOU, which isn't always the right group ride for me. I know these guys personally and don't feel like letting them get dragged through the mud. Besides, the OP has long stopped posting and everyone here seems to hate racers who don't roll out the red carpet. You can either cry about it or build your fitness and skills to stick with them. I chose the latter.


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## sw150 (Jul 29, 2009)

spade2you said:


> It wasn't hijacked at all, but the B group just wasn't there, which wouldn't have surprised me with the heat and wind going on that day. The Tuesday ride has never had much of a B group, despite the Wednesday Trek store AND Bike Master's having huge B groups.


Bike Masters clearly states what their rides are like. Wednesday race training ride with no regrouping. Saturday ride with regrouping.
Wednesday:Wednesday Night Ride – Wednesdays at 6 P.M. at Bike Masters on 129th & Fort. This is a up tempo race-training ride. Slower group will form on-route. Rides will be between 30 to 40 miles in length. Ride leader: Brandon F. 

Saturday:Saturday Morning Ride – Saturdays at 8:30 A.M. at Bike Masters on 129th & Fort. Moderate pace with stops for regrouping. 40-50 miles. Route depends on weather and wind direction. Check our Facebook for updates. Ride leader: Dave R.All ride times are subject to change. Please check back here for updated start times.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sw150 said:


> Bike Masters clearly states what their rides are like. Wednesday race training ride with no regrouping. Saturday ride with regrouping.
> Wednesday:Wednesday Night Ride – Wednesdays at 6 P.M. at Bike Masters on 129th & Fort. This is a up tempo race-training ride. Slower group will form on-route. Rides will be between 30 to 40 miles in length. Ride leader: Brandon F.
> 
> Saturday:Saturday Morning Ride – Saturdays at 8:30 A.M. at Bike Masters on 129th & Fort. Moderate pace with stops for regrouping. 40-50 miles. Route depends on weather and wind direction. Check our Facebook for updates. Ride leader: Dave R.All ride times are subject to change. Please check back here for updated start times.


The other Trek store ride on Wednesday also has good numbers and a similar format.

Bike Rack on Thursday usually has more social riders, but a few racers tend to show up. Since they sponsor my team, I try to make it when I can. 

The Bike Way has a Monday ride, but I've only done that once.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

More than anything, it sounds like this group doesn't take the time, for whatever reason, to communicate what they're about. The posting for the Bike Masters rides above is quite clear and gives everyone a good idea what to expect. The group the OP was trying to join should do something similar, instead of posting a misleading ride announcement and then turning off the guy who believed it. I don't care what excuses are made, that's just rude. I know everyone is busy, but it takes 5 minutes to type up something like the BM ride schedule, and then everyone is clear on what's happening. Or, don't post the ride at all.

And really, is it that hard to talk to someone new? Just let them know in a friendly way, because he hasn't ridden with them before, that the group is really going to be hammering that day and they won't wait up if he drops? Once again, having someone tag along on the rear is no skin off their nose, elbows or anywhere else. It takes a few seconds to be nice and has no adverse effect on them at all.

I've posted a lot in this thread because I've been riding a long time and seen a lot of cyclists act rudely toward complete strangers on the road. It's not a situation that's improving over time, and I don't care how you rationalize it, it is pointless and damaging to the sport. Nine times out of ten, the strongest riders on the road are the friendliest to newbies because they don't feel threatened and want to see them enjoy riding and improve their skills. When I was a youngster I was on an off-season training ride in a group with one of Greg Lemond's teammates, and I flatted in the middle of a long climb. Although we barely knew one another, he stopped and helped me change my flat and together we continued up the climb, reeled in the group, and finished the day with a great ride. That's class, and not enough people these days know about it.


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## zacattack (Jun 13, 2011)

In my estimation, if they guys on this ride wanted to do "intense" training, they should not have been doing it within the context of a "shop ride." When I train for races, I usually don't use the shop rides for my "intense" training. Shop rides can be up tempo and spirited, but they are still an extention of the shop and should be "inviting" to new participants. While I can't speak for all shops, this situation would have never happened at Bike Masters under any circumstance.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bike Masters is very fortunate to have such consistent riders. The Tuesday Trek Store ride is inconsistent. Yes, I realize you'll blame it on attitudes, but that's just how it has almost always been. Even within the A group, turnout can be hit or miss sometimes. Given the number of Wednesday rides, you can just as easily skip Tues for Wed. 

Telling the rider that he's not ready for the ride would be polite, but the world is full of delicate flowers. 

Next time on the ride or at that shop, I might mention something about correcting the entry, but it's not like they owe anyone a group ride. Heck, my shop of choice doesn't even have group rides, so anything is an improvement on that.


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## zacattack (Jun 13, 2011)

My interpretation was that the ride was posted as a Trek Shop ride. If it isn't a shop ride, then the complexion changes immensely, wouldn't you say? Any ride that is not posted or sponsored by a shop is really just an eclectic grouping of folks who happen to come to a mutual place based upon word of mouth. Now if this is a ride posted by the shop, the stakes change. In this case, it sounds like there was an indication of a ride leader and other instructions posted at the shop. I wouldn't want the shop name associated with any ride which wouldn't have a positive reflection on the shop. In this case, this ride was anything but a positive reflection on the shop. If I were a neutral party looking for a shop or ride or whatever, and I saw this thread......well, I wouldn't be going to that shop. I know the BM shop management and owners wouldn't allow any ride to occur under the aforementioned circumstances.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Should I be upset that Bike Masters didn't wait up for me when I cramped up then had a flat once? I mean, talk about a bunch of wannabe racer snobs.....


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## zacattack (Jun 13, 2011)

LOL. Nice one Spade. Which ride were you talking about. If you were talking about the Saturday ride, I will call BS on you! Never happens with Dave (the manager) running the ride personally. And if you are talking about the Wednesday ride, it says specifically what the ride is and isn't. You are not comparing apples to apples here, my friend. If you see where the thread started.....the person was talking about the formation of the ride start and of course the deportment of the riders....things like that. You are talking about something different. As is, sounds like you are a fairly accomplished rider, so if you cramped, I am sure you had a cell or a way to stretch it out. Any time you need a ride or need assistance, use your cell to call the shop, there will be help. And the flat. If you are like most of us, you have flat repair items with you. Again, you are only a phone call away from getting assistance. I am thinking your sarcasm is misplaced here! Some shops have it and some don't!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I don't actually care that nobody waited. I fixed it, continued riding, and eventually limped home. 

As for how much the store is obligated to say/do, to my knowledge, group ride leaders aren't being paid, a sag wagon isn't following us, and we're not paying a dime to ride.


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## Jean-Claude (Jun 11, 2011)

If those guys didn't want him there they should man-up and tell him they were invite only. Being rude does not a point make. There are tons of people who come across rude and don't have a point to make. Either tell him and be done with it or suck it up and be a man.

With that said, as a new rider, if I were in your shoes and that dude said that, I would have outright told them it was a pleasure riding close to them and hopefully some of their awesome rubbed off on me, but I'll have to pass on the snobbery. Then I would have turned around left.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm fine with the group being leery of new riders or having a set of expectations for those who join a ride, but this group is just plain dysfunctional. (Based on the OP's description and other information posted here.)

It sounds like two things are going wrong here and both of them are the fault of the group or shop organizing the ride. 

First, the website information needs to be updated to give riders a good sense of what kind of ride is happening. People do move to an area, are in town on business, etc. so the ride information should be updated and correct (to assume "everyone knows" is bad and the source of problems). Moreover, if the group has rules or expectations for the different groups, those should be stated clearly. For example, my club's ride descriptions make it clear that the "A" group rides require excellent paceline skills, the ability to hold a certain MPH, are clear about the distance, etc. Our club has everyone from fitness riders on fitness bikes to really fast racers. We all meet up together and someone always makes contact with new riders to make sure they know what's what. 

Second, either the person in the shop or the group leader (someone should have stepped up if there's no "leader") should have told the new rider what the situation was. Ideally someone in the group of "A" riders should have said to the new rider, "hi...this is the deal with this ride, we go this fast, we expect good/excellent paceline skills, etc." It's not like the OP showed up two minutes before the ride; he was there in plenty of time and _someone_ from the group should have stepped up to inform the OP about the group and the group about the OP. 

Assuming "everybody" knows isn't a good strategy. Maybe the group "figured" the OP got the message, but why take chances? A new rider shows up, make contact, especially if your group has certain expectations about fitness and skills. Sending "messages" through body language, etc. just doesn't work in such situations. If the "A" group wants to gate keep, then they need to do it explicitly.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*that's what...*



Road Hazard said:


> What I find amusing about this thread is that Drattner apparently did belong with this group in terms of fitness. He solo'd and caught a group of "A" riders who had the benefit of a paceline. Then he matched the sprinter guy's blocking and accelerations repeatedly.
> 
> It also sounds like he had a fair bit of group riding experience.
> 
> Drattner, I think you need to find a faster group actually.


I was thinking. seems he had the ability to hang just fine...and I would guess some of them knew it and didn't like the fact they were being outclassed potentially.

I hate dicks on rides. Our race squad doesn't allow them. Period. You're a dick, you're out. We cordially break up the rides if need be...


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

bahueh said:


> I was thinking. seems he had the ability to hang just fine...and I would guess some of them knew it and didn't like the fact they were being outclassed potentially.
> 
> I hate dicks on rides. Our race squad doesn't allow them. Period. You're a dick, you're out. We cordially break up the rides if need be...


Hammering to catch up 2 miles into the ride is hardly what I would consider "hanging", especially when this is usually still a part of the warmup. Not saying the OP couldn't hang, just that your conclusion doesn't seem to have much merit.


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## mcsqueak (Apr 22, 2010)

redlude97 said:


> Hammering to catch up 2 miles into the ride is hardly what I would consider "hanging", especially when this is usually still a part of the warmup. Not saying the OP couldn't hang, just that your conclusion doesn't seem to have much merit.


Well, when they leave without you, you'll have to hum along at a pace greater than theirs to catch them, without the benefit of drafting in a paceline. Seems like pretty solid work to me.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

Peanya said:


> *I wonder if the guy that kept slowing down was intentionally trying to wear you out*, so you'd drop behind. Maybe you should join the ride again, and drop the entire group (if you can). Let them know that overpriced bikes and kits don't make a better rider.


LMFAO!!! Ya think?

To the OP... those guys were just a bunch of arrogant pricks. And YES that guy was deliberately trying to break you from the group. Screw those guys and screw the shop they ride out of. There's no way in hell I would even think about spending money in a shop that supports a whole team of a-holes.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

bahueh said:


> I was thinking. seems he had the ability to hang just fine...and I would guess some of them knew it and didn't like the fact they were being outclassed potentially.
> 
> I hate dicks on rides. Our race squad doesn't allow them. Period. You're a dick, you're out. We cordially break up the rides if need be...


The route goes through some neighborhoods, a MUT, and some relatively busy roads. The goal is to use this area as a warmup since it's too hard to keep everyone together and it's unsafe at full speed. The hard riding starts several miles later. If you can catch a bunch of Cat 2 and 3 riders going all out and rotating in a group by yourself, you should be racing and your only strategy will be to ride away from the field.


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## zacattack (Jun 13, 2011)

What puzzles me is that the guy goes into the shop and asks about the ride. Sounds like shop personnel didn't know much about the ride or really didn't want to engage the newby in conversation about the ride. I realize that a specific shop may not "own" or officially "sponsor" a ride, but any ride starting from shop property on a REGULAR BASIS, should be known about by shop personnel. I would think it would be good PR by the shop to get to know the newby and have appropriate info for this rider. After all, you want to create goodwill which might lead the person to come back to the shop and purchase bicycling items. Am I on the wrong track here? If I read this right, the TREK store folks really didn't engage in this way?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I think there are a few newbies working there at the moment.


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## zacattack (Jun 13, 2011)

Must be the case. If anything this could be some good feedback for this shop. Overcommunication is always key to preventing misunderstandings. I would think that the management at the TREK store woudl want to clean up the communication. If you look at the entire thread, none of this does anything to build goodwill for the shop. Positive feedback, vibe, feeling.........all are the lifeblood of small bike shops. You need the people who like to hang out and call that shop "my own." These people, typically, bring in a lot of business through connections and word of mouth. Th is one incident has certainly done some amount of damage to the image of the shop. I am not saying I know how much damage, but I am saying that it hasn't helped! Wouldn't you agree, Spade?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I suppose disclosing that it's _mostly_ geared towards racers with a fairly inconsistent B group might help clear things up. Although, 2-3 years ago, I showed up and it turned out that all the racers were in France for the Etape du Tour or something. No B group, either.  

I thought there was someone working on a complete-ish listing of Omaha group rides, but I found it to be somewhat incomplete, too.


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## 2513fj (Jun 14, 2011)

Remember, there are plenty of other groups and rides to go on. Keep looking you'll find the right one. 
Cheers


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

spade2you said:


> *Since I know most of the riders personally, I can assure you that they're not stuck up.* They're very serious and it's usually a great hammerfest. That's the goal of this ride with the A group. Unfortunately, the B group wasn't there, although I can't recall the B riders being particularly strong in numbers on that ride on a regular basis. They have a lot of miles to cover as fast as possible. They helped make me a stronger rider over the years.
> 
> That being said, there are all sorts of rides around town and the schedule has remained the same for quite a while, other than most shops finally putting an end to 5pm rides due to lower turnout, given work schedules.




LMFAO!!!

OK... so they aren't stuck up...

They just act like it!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> LMFAO!!!
> 
> OK... so they aren't stuck up...
> 
> They just act like it!


Do YOU know any of them?


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

*1.*


spade2you said:


> Perhaps they're Cat 2 and 3 racers. We can play that game that all racers are snobs, but this is designed to be a very tough ride. Between the heat, wind, and still recovering from last weekend's efforts, I wouldn't have been able to hang with them, either. It's known for being one of the hardest local rides and that's not going to change.
> 
> *2.* The racing scene here is very small and you tend to know everyone. As fast as they go, they want someone who they're confident can keep up as well as handle some very tight and fast pacelines. At these speeds, you can't afford to have mistakes. The selection process has kept this ride pretty safe overall. Prove that you can survive their pace, take pulls, and handle a paceline safely and you'll become a regular.
> 
> *3.* It's unfortunate that the B group is so small with this group ride, but as I stated, there are others. Feel free to tell me about the guys I've been riding with for years, but this one is for the guys who are out to hammer and build fitness towards upcoming races. It's not a good one for getting into riding.




1 = sorry bud but that dog don't hunt... they are arrogant pricks... at least they were acting like it. I can give two craps about wether they were Cat 2 or 1 or 3... that doesn't matter. I was a Cat 2 racer in my teens and I was at one time a resident of the Olympic Training Center and I NEVER... not one single time.... treated a new rider like that... and neither did my riding partners. Not even as teenagers... this group we are talking about sounds like it was made up of adults (at least they were adult age wise... because they were acting like a bunch of 5 year olds)

If they didn't think this guy should ride with them the ADULT thing to do would have been talk to him in the parking lot... let him know what the ride would be like and give him some friendly advice that it might not be for him... not give him a smug shoulder and acting like dicks from the start of the ride.

2 = You say this guy will be welcomed if he proves he can hold a line and take a pull etc... How in the hell is he supposed to prove anything when the other riders wont even talk to him and deliberately try to drop him on the road that leads out of the fracking parking lot?

3 = It may not be a good ride for a newbie... and that's fine... but if these guys weren't pricks they would have the social skills to be able to communicate that without making themselves look like a group of douchbags.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Do YOU know any of them?


Why do I need to know someone personally to know they are acting like they are stuck up?

They wouldn't even talk to this dude in the parking lot... I don't know these guys personally... but I know the type. 

You might be right, they might be nice guys normally... but they were acting like dicks in the situation that was described.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

Kai Winters said:


> I'd send your post, letter form, to the owner of the shop and the manager. I'd also include the forums link and ask if they thought this was respectful and appropriate for them to act considering it seemed to be part of the shop and reflects poorly on the shop, its' integrity and respect for others.
> 
> It would be interesting to see if they respond and how they respond.
> Be sure to post their response here for us to read.
> ...


^
^
+1

I co-sign this 1000% The shop should be made aware of how IT'S TEAM is representing IT'S SHOP. If I was the owner of that shop I'd be at the next team meeting and rip the faces off the riders that were involved in that situation.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> Why do I need to know someone personally to know they are acting like they are stuck up?


I dunno, this may be teh interw3b, but you weren't there and I think a few people are taking their insecurities out based on a brief description of a dude who hasn't since posted. So, without people being there or knowing them, I'm getting some strong opinions here. 

Truth be told, a lot of them are the quiet type. I've been riding with a lot of them for a few years and have learned to understand they don't say much. No clue if they talk or what they talk about in the van after races, but I can't imagine it's much.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

spade2you said:


> I would feel sorry for anyone on vacation here.
> 
> The avg. speed is an error and I don't know why it's posted as such. I suppose I could ask someone to change it, *but not too many people check for these things since almost everyone who rides knows when, where, and how hard the local rides are. Like I said, it's a very small scene*.




Sounds like that local scene isn't too interested in gaining new riders... especially if all riders are expected to know the score of each and every ride even though they are advertised wrong.

Think about what you just said and tell me how your "local scene" makes any attempt to help new riders out.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> Sounds like that local scene isn't too interested in gaining new riders... especially if all riders are expected to know the score of each and every ride even though they are advertised wrong.
> 
> Think about what you just said and tell me how your "local scene" makes any attempt to help new riders out.


Shops can want more people to ride, but it's not a very active community. Good or bad group rides aren't going to change that. This is Husker country. We're fortunate to have a modest cycling community, but I don't really see significant growth happening. Most want as many cyclists OFF the road as possible.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

spade2you said:


> I think there are a few newbies working there at the moment.



I think you have an aweful lot of excuses for that shop and for that group of riders.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> I think you have an aweful lot of excuses for that shop and for that group of riders.


New people start there every summer. They have their regulars at each store, but there's always new people there that I haven't seen before and part-timers.

So, what about the OP's friend not showing up? Seems like the racers are turds but this is ok? 

You seem to have an awful amount of hatred for riders and store in an area of the country you'll likely never visit. 

Care to hand out MORE opinions?


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*have you ever..*



redlude97 said:


> Hammering to catch up 2 miles into the ride is hardly what I would consider "hanging", especially when this is usually still a part of the warmup. Not saying the OP couldn't hang, just that your conclusion doesn't seem to have much merit.


soloed to catch up to a "A" group for 2+ miles?


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Shops can want more people to ride, but it's not a very active community. Good or bad group rides aren't going to change that. This is Husker country. We're fortunate to have a modest cycling community, but I don't really see significant growth happening. Most want as many cyclists OFF the road as possible.



Of course shops want more people to ride. That just makes good business sense for a bike shop to want more bike riders in the community. So it's in their best interest to do anything possible to garner new riders. A good group ride may not neccesarily put more riders on the road but a bad ride MOST certainly can take riders off the road... or at the very least prevent ridersd from shopping in the shop a bad ride comes out of.

Back when I was competitive this area had a very modest cycling community. In fact of the 3 bike shops in a 40 mile radius there were exactly ZERO shop sponsored teams in this area. I was fortunate enough to race for a very competitive team from the Bay Area but team meetings were a 2 hour drive for me. Since then... now there are 4 teams in the area 2 of which come out of shops. 

The growth in the cycling community here grew for what ever reason... but riders being dicks on advertised shop rides wont help the community so stop making excuses for it.

To be honest... the post of yours I quoted (above) and am responding to right now is just completely useless nonsense.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> Of course shops want more people to ride. That just makes good business sense for a bike shop to want more bike riders in the community. So it's in their best interest to do anything possible to garner new riders. A good group ride may not neccesarily put more riders on the road but a bad ride MOST certainly can take riders off the road... or at the very least prevent ridersd from shopping in the shop a bad ride comes out of.
> 
> Back when I was competitive this area had a very modest cycling community. In fact of the 3 bike shops in a 40 mile radius there were exactly ZERO shop sponsored teams in this area. I was fortunate enough to race for a very competitive team from the Bay Area but team meetings were a 2 hour drive for me. Since then... now there are 4 teams in the area 2 of which come out of shops.
> 
> ...


I know shops would like more people to ride, but that would mean people getting off the couch. Not gonna happen. 

The Trek shops tend to have turnover with their younger employees. It is what it is. 

You're opinionated. That's for sure.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

spade2you said:


> Truth be told, a lot of them are the quiet type. I've been riding with a lot of them for a few years and have learned to understand they don't say much. No clue if they talk or what they talk about in the van after races, but I can't imagine it's much.


*It's not about being social*. *It's about being responsible.* When you put on a team jersey you become an ambassador for your sport and for all the companies that put their name on the jersey or otherwise support the team. As a team rider you need to realize that it isn't all about you and your needs. The support you get as a racer/team member comes with price and since amateur racing gets little to no press, a big part of that price is paid with being "social" and not so self-absorbed when the occasion calls for it.

No one sponsors a team out the goodness of their heart (ok a few do). Everyone one of those sponsors--from Trek on down do so to advertise or build community goodwill. Part of the deal of getting free stuff or deep discounts is that you as a team member act as a member of team--and that includes being an ambassador, being an example. That doesn't mean you need to do all kinds of community service, invite every new rider out for a beer after the ride, ride really slow to accommodate a new rider, put yourself in danger by riding with someone with no paceline skills, etc. but it does mean acting in a responsible manner when new folks show up, when dealing with other cyclists, etc. This includes not blowing through stop signs when all kitted up, saying "hi...this is a leave no prisoners ride...it looks like no one from the B group showed up, if you want to ride with us here are the expectations...," etc. 

You say the local area wants cyclists off the road, well if this team is a an example no wonder. Imagine this, the OP is a cyclist and he or she has a neighbor on a neighborhood committee that's being asked to close a road for a cycling event or maybe the neighbor owns/manages an office park being ask to allow a crit to take place on the property. Said neighbor mentions it to his or her cyclist neighbor....you get the picture. If you want the community to do stuff for you like close roads, allow crits in office parks or light industrial parks, or just be more receptive to cycling in general, you (or the team in question) need to be more interested in something other than your race results and fitness.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

vagabondcyclist said:


> *It's not about being social*. *It's about being responsible.* When you put on a team jersey you become an ambassador for your sport and for all the companies that put their name on the jersey or otherwise support the team. As a team rider you need to realize that it isn't all about you and your needs. The support you get as a racer/team member comes with price and since amateur racing gets little to no press, a big part of that price is paid with being "social" and not so self-absorbed when the occasion calls for it.
> 
> No one sponsors a team out the goodness of their heart (ok a few do). Everyone one of those sponsors--from Trek on down do so to advertise or build community goodwill. Part of the deal of getting free stuff or deep discounts is that you as a team member act as a member of team--and that includes being an ambassador, being an example. That doesn't mean you need to do all kinds of community service, invite every new rider out for a beer after the ride, ride really slow to accommodate a new rider, put yourself in danger by riding with someone with no paceline skills, etc. but it does mean acting in a responsible manner when new folks show up, when dealing with other cyclists, etc. This includes not blowing through stop signs when all kitted up, saying "hi...this is a leave no prisoners ride...it looks like no one from the B group showed up, if you want to ride with us here are the expectations...," etc.
> 
> You say the local area wants cyclists off the road, well if this team is a an example no wonder. Imagine this, the OP is a cyclist and he or she has a neighbor on a neighborhood committee that's being asked to close a road for a cycling event or maybe the neighbor owns/manages an office park being ask to allow a crit to take place on the property. Said neighbor mentions it to his or her cyclist neighbor....you get the picture. If you want the community to do stuff for you like close roads, allow crits in office parks or light industrial parks, or just be more receptive to cycling in general, you (or the team in question) need to be more interested in something other than your race results and fitness.


You are 100% right. Snobby racers is the main and only reason that the fat slobs in oversized cars want us off the road. Glad you figured it out.

Next world problem you'll solve?


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

spade2you said:


> You are 100% right. Snobby racers is the main and only reason that the fat slobs in oversized cars want us off the road. Glad you figured it out.
> 
> Next world problem you'll solve?


Did I say that? No, but if you want more community support, you have to work for it. I've lived and cycled in a lot of areas (including big college football towns/areas) and have seen how being proactive can help make life better for cyclists by not isolating yourself as a group. Does it happen overnight, no but it can start to happen if people realize that we all live in the same community. 

Will there always be hostile motorists or members of the community, most likely, but that doesn't mean we as cyclists should retreat into self-centeredness and mirror the behavior of those "fat slobs in oversized cars" who can't see beyond their own narrow self interests. 

Either that or you are a *troll* or were one of the* idiot snobs* on that ride because you're being awfully defensive about their behavior.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

vagabondcyclist said:


> Did I say that? No, but if you want more community support, you have to work for it. I've lived and cycled in a lot of areas (including big college football towns/areas) and have seen how being proactive can help make life better for cyclists by not isolating yourself as a group. Does it happen overnight, no but it can start to happen if people realize that we all live in the same community.
> 
> Will there always be hostile motorists or members of the community, most likely, but that doesn't mean we as cyclists should retreat into self-centeredness and mirror the behavior of those "fat slobs in oversized cars" who can't see beyond their own narrow self interests.
> 
> Either that or you are a *troll* or were one of the* idiot snobs* on that ride because you're being awfully defensive about their behavior.


Those idiot snobs were former team mates and that shop has done a lot for me over the years. So, feel free to throw in your informed opinions. The ride leaders know who is ready and who isn't. I was nothing special when they allowed me to hang. They then taught me basically everything. If the OP was ready for that, they would have taught him. 

I'm sure the lack of attendance of the B group had nothing to do with Tues being ~100 degrees with 30mph winds and the Wednesday forecast being in the 80's with minimal wind. 

What y'all are determining as snobs is fairly entertaining. They didn't say anything and you'd be hard pressed to tell if anyone gave him the stink eye since only a few guys don't wear shades and I don't think they were on that ride.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

I think you're letting your history with these guys cloud your judgment on this issue. The fact that the B group didn't show has nothing to do with how your friends acted. To bring it up is a red herring. 

I don't care how shy or quiet or reserved they are, would it have killed them to be civil? Would it have been a hassle to say, "hey it looks like no one from the B group is showing, this is the 'A' take no prisoners ride, we're a tight group?" It would have been the responsible thing to do, especially if they're wearing the team jersey of the shop whose parking lot their sitting in. What did they think the new guy was there for? To ride by himself? They need to realize they represent the shop if they've the shop's jersey on and they should act accordingly--especially if no one from the B group showed and they thought he was looking for the B group. 

Now maybe the OP misrepresented the facts. Maybe the parking lot is really big and your friends thought he had split. Maybe he should have gotten the clue, but it sure sounds like your friends are pretty cold and self-centered to just roll out of the parking lot with no notice, no nothing. It sure sounds like they consider themselves a world apart from the B group, despite both riding out of the same shop ride calender. I mean if the ride is posted, there's an implied invitation. 

In short, based on the information here, your friends acted badly. Deal with it, but stop trying to rationalize it away with explanations or rhetorical fallacies.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

spade2you said:


> I know shops would like more people to ride, but that would mean people getting off the couch. Not gonna happen.
> 
> The Trek shops tend to have turnover with their younger employees. It is what it is.
> 
> You're opinionated. That's for sure.




I'm opinionated??? That's rich!

YOU are sitting here defending a group of guys who were acting like total douchebags... I'm only pointing out the flaws in your arguement.


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## Drattner (Feb 11, 2010)

My apologies for not replying sooner, it has been a long couple of weeks at work and home and haven’t been able to check the forum. 

First thank you for all the feedback. I had no idea my post would generate such a big response. After talking to a few guys on my Sunday group ride, were going to try some different rides in town and/or get together on the side. I also got feedback by several people about negative experiences they have had with the trek store ride and even some complaints from friends who run on the trail on Tuesdays about getting buzzed by groups of cyclists. 

I agree that there are 2 sides to every story. Maybe I missed something or mis-interpreted something. Maybe it was pure ignorance on my part who knows. In the future I’ll try a few other rides out around town and find the right fit for me. 

Thanks


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Both Tues and Wed rides go through the MUT system, but one of the rules is to behave on them since it's unsafe to ride them at full speed given the runners, cyclists, dogs, roller bladers, etc. The complaint of being "buzzed" is a little subjective, but we don't ride at full speed and we announce our presence. That being said, the usual group leader and I were about taken out on the trail because some jack-ass about swerved into us. Can't say I'm as fond of the new route since the shop moved.


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## royd (Dec 15, 2008)

*Bunch of Jerks*

These guys are a bunch of JERKS! 
I ride with A/B riders on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the A riders let their legs do the talking, if you can hang fine if not.... Why not give the "new" rider a little information on the dynamics of the ride/course, this will go a long way in keeping everyone safe.
Two weeks ago on our A/B ride I met a "new" rider before the start of the ride and I told him about the ride and what to expect, such as the sprint sections, where the steep hills are etc. Last Sunday before the ride he came up to me and expressed his appreciation for the information. 
To the OP come ride with my group and leave those JERKS alone.


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## Rugergundog (Apr 2, 2011)

If the Store promotes that behavior and the group ride was a function of the store and its workers i would go spend my coin at another shop.

If it was a inclusive group ride and they didn't want you there they should have said so up front.


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## TirePopper (Jun 6, 2011)

ronderman said:


> I don't think he said anything on looking for a more social ride.
> 
> Here are my observations over the past 20 years.
> 
> ...


ROTFL. 

Having said that, the Trek store guys in my area are very nice. That group of guys sound like a bunch of douches, good riders or not.


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## BXR4T (May 20, 2011)

My question is, what does an incident like this, with this type of response, have to do for the sponsors who have their name on the team jersey? Personally, if my company was sponsoring a team that pulled that stunt, I would pull my sponsorship. The two main reasons being, I personally don't stand for that type of behavior, and I would not want any potential customers getting the impression that my company supports the teams that act in this way. I just don't see how any behavior from the "A" riders was appropriate. I know that I am new to riding, but wouldn't it be customary to have the "B" team join with the "A" team as long as possible in the event of a no show of said "B" team? Especially considering the the advertised ride time, the advertised speed, and the lack of communication from the ride leader informing the OP of the technicality of the "A" specific ride? It also sounds like they be a little worried about their ego to have someone ride with them with out the Trek jersey or a Madone. Because if they are as good as YOU say they are, could they have not just left him in their dust? I am sure the OP was big enough to find his way back to the shop, back to his car and then back home after getting dropped and realizing that the "A" group might not be the right fit for him when he completely loses sight at mile 10. Even if they were your "previous" team, although your recent post kinda suggests that they might be your current team (which explains your defensive response to every opinion about the said "A" team), the ride leader clearly lacks the leadership responsible for running a "well" managed team that is lucky enough to have sponsors with names as big as Trek. You would think with this type of a gift, the team would have a greater respect for all aspects of the sport, you should be able to respect more from the team, and you should definitely respect more from that specific ride leader.
R.

*edit* I do not know why it decided to put my post up here, please accept my apologies.


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## GradyPhilpott (Jun 18, 2011)

I've never done a group ride and may never get there, so my advice probably isn't worth much, but if I were you, I'd talk with the group leader, whom I presume is a Trek store employee or at least affiliated in some way.

The people at my Trek store here in ABQ are the most accommodating folks I've done business with in a long time and they treat this newbie with respect each time I go in.

I can't imagine that Trek would want to be associated with riders who abuse new riders. It's just not good for business.


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