# 11-25 and 50/34 compact gearing



## PoorCyclist

Hi.. I notcied most of the bay area rides involves climbs..
I was wondering if my gearing is adequate for a beginner.
I know I suck at climbing, but sometimes I am on the 25T on the back,
I am thinking if it was any steeper I am pedalling so slow I would fall over or have to mash or stand the whole way. 

What are you guys using? Would a 11-28 cassette help much?


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## Daren

That's the gearing my daughter started out with and we routinely did climbs of 3 miles at 8%


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## JoelS

Ride it and get stronger.


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## orangeclymer

JoelS said:


> Ride it and get stronger.


yes continue riding and the strength will come...............i use an 11/27 with my compact but have use for it with all the mountains surrounding me.


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## Allez Rouge

You're saying you already have a 50/34 crankset, and it's still not low enough?

The next-to-lowest cog on your 11-25 cassette is almost certainly a 23. Find a hill that you can Just. Barely. Climb. using the 34x23 combination. Then shift to the 25t cog and note how much easier things get. That will be *roughly* the difference between your current 25 and a 28 and will give you an idea of how much a 28 would help.

The "ride it and get stronger" advice may seem unsympathetic but it's also correct. The way you get better and stronger at riding hills is ... by riding hills.


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## PoorCyclist

I am used to triple gear crank, but since you guys say it's fine,
I will keep at it, thanks!!


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## poff

Jeeezz, I live right off Marin Ave in EB and it averages 21% for just over a mile. I welcome you to ride it every day using 34X25.


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## johnny dollar

I ride a compact with an 11-32 cassette. So there has never been a hill I couldn't climb (at least at a snails pace).


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## tinman143

Ugghh...you would need more than 25 if you're even asking. The hills up here aren't a joke, I'd go with up to 28, even with your compact. Happy climbing!


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## PoorCyclist

poff said:


> Jeeezz, I live right off Marin Ave in EB and it averages 21% for just over a mile. I welcome you to ride it every day using 34X25.


If you ride on that street everyday maybe you could start tell others the actual slope is more like 17% max and less than a mile...


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## moschika

depends on how much you want to work for it, and to some degree your age. i think you'll be fine with that gearing for a lot of climbs, but climbing takes work no matter what your gearing.


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## CoLiKe20

I use 50/34 and 11-25 and 11-27. I prefer the 11-27 more.


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## orangeclymer

tinman143 said:


> Ugghh...you would need more than 25 if you're even asking. The hills up here aren't a joke, I'd go with up to 28, even with your compact. Happy climbing!


 Relatively speaking that is since your at or near sea level those are hills and while they pose a challenge i'd suggest being @ altitude (4k+) and taking on mountain passes in order to necessitate the use of an 11/27 or 28...now thats happy climbing on a daily basis.


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## kbwh

I'm a Campagnolo guy, so 11-27 is not an option, but I can put 12-27 and 12-29 on .

I for one cannot sit and spin a 34x25 on a 17% grade, so trading off the 50x11 for better climbing is just fine. I still have nice close gearing for the flats, and should I spin out the 50x12 (it's longer/bigger than 53x13) I might as well tuck in. 

I'd say get some shorter gears.


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## spade2you

Yes, the bigger gear in back could help, but one downside is that there may be big jumps in tooth changes in the rear cog. At this point, losing your 11 in back shouldn't be too big of a deal. 



kbwh said:


> I'm a Campagnolo guy, so 11-27 is not an option


It's too bad this isn't an option. While I do fine on my race bike with the 11-23, the 11 speed would could theoretically offer some nice gearing and not too many big jumps in cogs.


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## Chef Tony

PoorCyclist said:


> If you ride on that street everyday maybe you could start tell others the actual slope is more like 17% max and less than a mile...


On mapmyride.com, the slope graph becomes more accurate over shorter distances. From Euclid to Grizzly peak my Garmin shows Marin to be over 15% for the first 2 blocks and over 20% for the last 2 blocks. It would be very painful for me to do that in a 34x25....


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## robwh9

*I've got a 30 x 32 low gear. Beat that! Beat that!*

I use it for weekend touring, and I'm usually too lazy to swap out the cassette afterward.


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## CHL

PoorCyclist:

That depends on your ability. If you find yourself struggling with a 34/25 on the majority of your climbs, then switch over to a wide range cassette. You'll be amazed at how much better you'll feel using gear that you can actually use. I've seen plenty of strong climbers use a compact crankset with a 26 or 27 cassette.

CHL


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## shibaman

There is nothing wrong with using rears to climb hills. I have a compact with a 12x27. Most of my friends have a 11x28 on the rear. 1 tooth makes a difference when you are climbing a 6 mi climb full of 20% grades. Swap your 11x25 for a 11x28 if you can. you will be much happier climbing tough hills. 
That said about gears, I am going to do this hill ride on my single speed 42x16. 
http://ridewithgps.com/routes/99872


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## PoorCyclist

The reason I am asking is I found out my knee is not as strong as they were.. not talking muscles but joint and tendon..
One can certainly damage the knees pushing too big of a gear, could take years of abuse but could happen quite suddenly

Right now I am somewhat glad to learn that my lungs and cardio give out first and not due to leg muscle burn or pain. So there is some room to improve in that aspect and a bigger gear probably won't help that much.

Thanks for everyone's reply so far.


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## poff

PoorCyclist said:


> If you ride on that street everyday maybe you could start tell others the actual slope is more like 17% max and less than a mile...


 This is BS since it incorporates short flat parts (intersecting streets). The actual is 21% without those and it is close to 25% on the last section between Euclid and Grizzly. In fact, here is what Berkeley Death Ride has to say:

Marin Street from the Marin Circle to Grizzly Peak, 190 meters climb in 1.5 km distance. Steepest block (just above Euclid) over 25% grade

From the Campanile, ride campus paths to Hearst and Oxford. Take Oxford north to Rose; turn left on Rose and right on Shattuck. Just before the tunnel to Solano, turn right on Del Norte; there's a short climb to the Marin Circle. Marin is the second street on the right (the steep climb).

Marin is simply ridiculous; one advantage of doing it first is that all the rest of the hills will look easy by comparison. The main disadvantage is that it could kill you before you get a chance at any of the other hills. I plan to ride it as slowly as I possibly can, and I recommend you do as well. It crosses a number of quiet streets, which people often use as an opportunity to rest without getting off the bike; just turn down the side street and coast for a while as your heart rate comes back under your anaerobic threshold.

The first block is rather steep, perhaps a 14% grade. After that it eases up for 3 blocks, hanging at around 10% until the block before Spruce. That block is again above 15%, and it looks a little like it might be the road's peak--it's so steep you can't see the road above it.

Of course, it's not the peak. Crossing Spruce gives you a little break (remember to take advantage of CVC 57492.1: "the right-of-way must be yielded to people in extreme pain"), and then the next couple blocks again aren't quite so bad. Then the block before Euclid is pretty nasty, pushing 20% grade, but really it's just letting you know that you're about to begin the hard part.

Past Euclid is where the road gets really absurd. The average grade from Euclid to Grizzly Peak is 22%, but that includes the flat intersections. Actual riding is closer to 25%, and that first block is probably near 30%. I don't care how low your gears are, or how light your bike is; either you have the leg strength and aerobic capacity to ride up this hill, or you don't. Good friggin' luck.

The first block, as mentioned, is the steepest. The second block is a little less steep but still ridiculous. The final block is about the same as the second, but it's also much longer than the other two. I always feel tempted, if I have anything left in my legs, to power up the last few meters just to get the damn thing overwith; I recommend against doing that, because we have a lot more climbing to do today.


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## Rhymenocerus

I know some look down on them, but I find my Triple very appropriate for Bay Area riding.


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## shibaman

PoorCyclist said:


> The reason I am asking is I found out my knee is not as strong as they were.. not talking muscles but joint and tendon..
> One can certainly damage the knees pushing too big of a gear, could take years of abuse but could happen quite suddenly
> 
> Right now I am somewhat glad to learn that my lungs and cardio give out first and not due to leg muscle burn or pain. So there is some room to improve in that aspect and a bigger gear probably won't help that much.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's reply so far.


 Get the gears. Protect your knees. I quite running years ago because of knee pain. Too many yrs. of heavy weights at the gym, and running. So far I am ok on the bike. Today I really pushed the limit on my legs, and knees. The ride I did is not easy on a geared bike , much less a Single Speed. 80 mi. of climbing! I am going to be very sore tomorrow!


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## shibaman

Rhymenocerus said:


> I know some look down on them, but I find my Triple very appropriate for Bay Area riding.


A lot of people think that triples are for wimps. I have a triple that I don't use because it requires more shifting in the hills, and mine needs to be adjusted all the time during the ride. Plus the frame climbs well(CAAD7), but is not as comfortable, or stable as my Dale System Six with a compact. I am plenty strong on the compact, but there have been times climbing 20%+ grades when I would have liked more gears. Use what ever gets you up the hill to finish your ride. Don't worry what other people say. I ride with a group of guys who race, for them triples is a wuss crank.


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## Rhymenocerus

shibaman said:


> A lot of people think that triples are for wimps. I have a triple that I don't use because it requires more shifting in the hills, and mine needs to be adjusted all the time during the ride. Plus the frame climbs well(CAAD7), but is not as comfortable, or stable as my Dale System Six with a compact. I am plenty strong on the compact, but there have been times climbing 20%+ grades when I would have liked more gears. Use what ever gets you up the hill to finish your ride. Don't worry what other people say. I ride with a group of guys who race, for them triples is a wuss crank.


I like to ride my old cheap triple just to shut people up. I love blowing the doors off guys with bikes 10 times as expensive. My bike is like 23lbs dry with it in full tri mode and I can still outclimb most. Its all about the motor


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## izzyfly

Rhymenocerus said:


> I like to ride my old cheap triple just to shut people up. I love blowing the doors off guys with bikes 10 times as expensive. My bike is like 23lbs dry with it in full tri mode and I can still outclimb most. Its all about the motor


A triple is the best kept 'secret' in cycling - gives you the full range at the high and low ends. 

To the OP, get the 11-28, or 12-27 cassette for your compact. I know really strong riders who do the low-key hill climbs (Welch Creek, Sierra with 20+ percent grades, Mt.Hamilton with the long endurance climb) - and these riders do these climbs with a *compact and 12-27 cog-set*.


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## orangeclymer

Rhymenocerus said:


> I like to ride my old cheap triple just to shut people up. I love blowing the doors off guys with bikes 10 times as expensive. My bike is like 23lbs dry with it in full tri mode and I can still outclimb most. Its all about the motor



yes triple or not and go climb mountains instead of hills..


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## Rhymenocerus

orangeclymer said:


> yes triple or not and go climb mountains instead of hills..


Climbed Mt D today.


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## jetdog9

Pretty non-avid cyclist here and my perspective... I rode quite a bit more than usual this summer and sought out some climbs/hills in particular. My normal neighborhood ride includes Pig Farm, have done 3 Bears plenty of times, and recently Mt. Diablo, Mt. Hamilton, Palomares Rd, El Toyonal. My setup has always been compact with 12-27 and there has been nothing undoable even when the legs start to tire. 

I very rarely used the 27 up to the point where I actually went the other direction and recently switched from the other direction, going from 12-27 to 11-25. It's taking a little getting used to but the 11 is nice to have for things like going down hills and not wanting to spin out so easily. To be honest, though, for me the 12-27 range of gears seemed more balanced (I can't think of a better word to use) even without using the 27 much. But I figure over time I will adjust.


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## Pierre

When gears are available, I think it is ridiculous not to use them. I have a triple on most of my bikes, and I'm happy to use them every year at the Death Ride. And when I train on super-steep Sonora Pass, somehow I don't see many riders with doubles. Actually, I rarely see any other cyclist at all over there


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## orangeclymer

Pierre said:


> I have a triple on most of my bikes, and I'm happy to use them every year at the Death Ride. And when I train on super-steep Sonora Pass, somehow I don't see many riders with doubles. Actually, I rarely see any other cyclist at all over there



It is indeed steep although i've only driven over and ridden my MC many times but never the bike, i did do the Ebbetts MC this yr though and parts of it were pretty tough.


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## SystemShock

PoorCyclist said:


> Hi.. I notcied most of the bay area rides involves climbs..
> I was wondering if my gearing is adequate for a beginner.
> I know I suck at climbing, but sometimes I am on the 25T on the back,
> I am thinking if it was any steeper I am pedalling so slow I would fall over or have to mash or stand the whole way.
> 
> What are you guys using? Would a 11-28 cassette help much?


34/28 would be a sweet climbing gear for the steeps, but the 11-28 casssette you'd be using to get there wouldn't be so wonderful, IMO... some of the jumps in it are too big and not very comfortable. The 15-to-17 jump, for example, is kind of redonkulous.

To my mind, 12-27 is a better cassette, and 34/27 is still quite low.

You lose the 11, but on a steep descent you're usually faster aero-tucking instead of pedaling anyway. Check out vids of the pros hitting 100kph (62mph) on some _screaming_ Tour de France descents... and they ain't pedaling. 
.


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## PoorCyclist

So I have a triple women's bike on order for my wife... with 105 derailleurs
11-25 + 30/39/50.. Is it going to rubbing the front cage alot?
How is 30-25 for a weaker rider? Plenty of slack right?


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## CHL

PoorCyclist said:


> So I have a triple women's bike on order for my wife... with 105 derailleurs
> 11-25 + 30/39/50.. Is it going to rubbing the front cage alot?
> How is 30-25 for a weaker rider? Plenty of slack right?


I used to ride a triple and never found rubbing an issue. If you ride in a cross gear, chain rub will always occur. Using a 30/25 combo, she should be to climb most of the hills in our area. Remember, it's not a race and enjoy the climb. 

CHL


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## slow.climber

You're riding a road triple with a 11-25 cassette? So, your small chain ring is 30 tooth and your biggest cassette cog is 25; your easy gear ratio is 30:25 = 1.2

IOW, your rear wheel will go around 1.2 times for every time you complete one full turn of the pedals.

A compact road double with an 11/25 is going to be more difficult, not less,
34/25 = 1.36

A compact road double with an 11/28 is going to be very slightly more difficult,
34/28 = 1.214

There will always be fast kids who can storm up hill in stupidly low gearing (39:21 or there abouts), but a lot of us are going to need to spin an easier gear. There's nothing wrong with getting up off the saddle when you're climbing hard.

Any grade over 8-10 percent is going to fell like real work if it goes on for more than a block or so. Fifteen percent grades require getting out of the saddle. Anything more than 15% is a very serious grind.

I agree that a 30:25 ratio will get most riders up most hills but it's still going to be hard work on some rides. For example, she'll probaly think it's a fairly big deal the first couple of times she climbs Hawk Hill (up Conzelman). Climbing Mt. Tam may be out of her comfort zone until Hawk Hill starts to feel like no big deal.

I have a friend with serious knee damage. She rides a Dura Ace road triple ( 53/39/30 ) with a mountain bike cassette ( 11/34 ). She had to replace her (road) rear derailer with a mountain bike derailer but that's easy. There will be chain rub in the most extreme (cross chained) conbinations but there's no reason to ride cross chained. There's a lot of 'overlap' in bike gearing; there are combinations that give you the same gearing but without being cross chained.

She rides about 4000 miles a year and can grind her way to the top of Mt. Tam. Not fast, but steady, and that's what count's. Find a set up that won't tear you up, and then have a great time.


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## poff

Mt. Tam does not have steep grades (15+%) IMHO the toughest climb of 5+mi in length within 4hrs of driving from BA is Sonora Pass. There you are hitting Golden Stairs at around 8500ft of elevation and it is 12-15% for 3/4mi.


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## slow.climber

poff, don't know if that was in response to my posting. I didn't mean to say that Mt. Tam had any steep pitches. But you do score almost 3000' on that ride and it's one that shows up on many local's short list of 'must do' rides.

The OP had a concern about his lady friend being able to handle climbs with her setup. My point was that my friend has bad knees but with the right set up, can still do rewarding climbs. 

FWIW, when it gets seriously foggy in the city, she has been know to head south and ride King's Mountain every day. Only a few hairpins at 15% but still a worthy climb. Also done the ride out from Bishop on Hwy-168, mostly easy grade with two long pitches at 8% but it starts at 4000' and it doesn't end until you get to 9000+. Done other rides at 7000-10,000 feet, all with thousands of feet of climbing. Not fast mind you, but enjoyable and a good work out.

I wouldn't expect the OP to be too familar with these rides, or many of the other climbs we've done, so I picked Hawk Hill and Mt Tam because those are rides that are very familar to locals.


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## poff

Oh no, I just wanted to point out that unconditionally around the BA there is no "tough" long stuff. So any average rider baring some bad knees or stuff like that should be OK with a compact. Now Bishop is a different animal all together. I am familiar with those (Whiney Portal, Onion V, Horseshoe M, Lake Sabrina, and many more) beasts.


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## willieboy

This is a great thread for me and I'm glad I came across it. I am a new road biker and live in the hills. My rides always start by going down and finish by coming up to the house. My new bike has the compact 34/50 and an 11/28 on the rear. I am looking for a little help on the hills. 51 years old, mild heart issue (should be above 160 for any length of time) and find myself struggling a little. I'm riding between 200 and 250 miles per month, as that's all the time I have for it. Wish I had more because I really enjoy being out there. I will never race and may never be able to do a group ride as my average speed over a 30 miles run is 16 MPH. I have been thinking about changing the cassette to a 12/30 or even a 12/32. If my research is correct it appears I will need to change my derailleur as well  I keep telling myself to work through it but the balance between training and heart rate is a fine line for me. In any case, thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Very helpful.


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## shibaman

When I first road with some old timers in the mountains i was always amazed how well these guys in their late 60s and 70s could climb. They used either compacts, or triples with a 12-34 XT cassette/ Derailleur. They weren't real fast, but they always got up the hill in a timely speed.:thumbsup: It is not an expensive swap to do.


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## slow.climber

I agree that pretty much any thing you find in the BA is easier than most of what you'll find in the Sierras (or other Mountain rides). But what surprised me was how relatively easy rides like Lake Sabrina or Bryce Canyon felt. OTOH, I'm not sure that I'll be doing Sonora Pass any time soon  

There are a couple of multi-thousand foot climbs with short steep segments that might be a bit too much for many casual riders. Maybe that's just a matter of overall fitness. More an issue of just plain running out of steam as oppossed to needing different gearing.

Still, Mt Diablo's kind of tough, especially that last pitch.

Mt Hamilton's a bit easier but still it's got 4000+ feet of fun times.

Sierra road will get your attention. Same for Mt Umunhum.

Even just an out-and-back from Woodside, west bound over Kings, out to the shore, and then back home via Tunitas Creek could be too much for many folks.

There's a huge range of capabilities, it's hard for me to judge what's going to work for the people in the middle of the distribution.


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## ericm979

I've done all the Bishop area climbs except Horseshoe. They're longer, but not steeper than what we have here. But you can simulate the big sierra stuff by doing repeats- three Diablos is like doing Mosquito Lake and Pine Canyon.

On some of the Bishop climbs (south lake, bristlecone pine) the steep part is at the top, so you get it when you're tired and at altitude, making it extra hard. But you could ride up 9 a couple times then do Bohlman/On Orbit for a similar effect.


To get that 12-32/34 gearing you can swich to a 9sp MTB derailleur (for Shimano). The 9sp mtb derailleurs use the same cable throw as Shimano road derailleurs (except 7900). For Sram, get an Apex derailleur. Sram cassettes will work on either, as will IRD.


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## slow.climber

ericm979 said:


> ...
> To get that 12-32/34 gearing you can swich to a 9sp MTB derailleur (for Shimano). The 9sp mtb derailleurs use the same cable throw as Shimano road derailleurs (except 7900). For Sram, get an Apex derailleur. Sram cassettes will work on either, as will IRD.


Yes, that's the configuration that I described on my friend's bike.

She's riding a Dura Ace triple with a M770 cassette
The CS-M770 is an 11/34 , 11, 13, 15, 17, 20, 23, 26, 30, 34

In top gear, you can grind away at 53:11 = 4.82

In low gear(s) you can windmill at,
30:34 = 0.88
30 = 1.00
26 = 1.15
23 = 1.30
20 = 1.50
.
.
.

For comparision, low gear with a compact double and an 11/27 cassette gives you,
34:27 = 1.26

And low gear with a compact double and an 11/34 cassette gives you,
34:34 = 1.00


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## SelfPropelledDevo

I ride a custom Hunter 29er, rigid, with a standard MTB drivetrain.
the only difference is that I use a 48t for the big ring.

48x11t with 29x2.0" approx 127 gear inch
about the same as 53x11t with 700x23c

gear inch calculator: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

and of course being a MTB it has 22x32t... heck-a-low

and of course all the gears in between


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