# Excessive ankling



## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

I had a bike fit. The place had more than one person doing fitting and at one point, the other fit coach stopped in and was talking to the fit coach who was working with me. I was pedaling at the time. The other fit coach said "did you notice his excessive ankling?" and she replied "Yes, I noticed". I asked "what is excessive ankling?" and she responded "oh, that's not a fit issue, that is coaching, that will cost extra." I initially thought she was kidding, but she really would not answer. I did some web searching and found conflicting info. Apparently it is when the heel comes up too much at the top of the stroke and the heel goes down too much at the bottom.

I didn't find much useful info on how to correct it other than seat height and I feel like the fitter got the seat height correct.

Are there exercises or something that can be done to correct excessive ankling? What is the effect -- does it make my calf muscles fatigue sooner? 

It would have been nice if the fit coach would have offered a few nuggets about cause, effect, and correction. It was NOT a cheap fit.


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

I used to ankle quite a bit when my seat was lower than the present position which is 2.5cm higher. We also stretched out the reach by 2cm as well which put my pevis in a different position. So for me it appears to be a fit thing which changed my pedaling. Not saying my fit is right/more right/etc..just that seat height and hip position had everything to do in my experience.


----------



## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

The conversation occurred at the end of the fit session, so everything was set and I was pedaling to see if it was comfortable. It seems like she would have made whatever adjustments were possible to compensate/resolve by that point. 

I wear Specialized Carbon Pro shoes, so I think that's a factor.

I'm comfortable and have no pain, but the comment goes through my mind rather frequently.


----------



## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

As I'm thinking about it, she recommended a 10mm shorter stem which would be the opposite direction -- shorter reach, more upright position -- to alleviate what she thought was a slightly excessive neck angle. I decided not to go with a shorter stem because I race and I'd rather be aero than comfortable.


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

I don't agree 100% with your fitters comments, but then I'm not a trained fitter. My thinking is if a fit affects pedaling anything that changes how you pedal is subject to evaluation during the fit session. 

After we raised the seat and lengthened the reach I still had a tendency to ankle. Pretty hard to unlearn something I had been doing for years. The fitter basically said focus on applying pressure more in the center of the pedal over the top and down through the stroke. I forget his exact words...He was just trying to get me to consciously think about it as I had a tendency to drop over the top through 3-4 o'clock-ish.

Over time I have changed how I pedal. It's subtle yet noticeably different if that makes sense. It was not hard to see the difference in our follow up session.


----------



## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

How is that a coaching question???? Furthermore, its such a minor question it seems like a coach would be behooved to give an intelligent answer simply to convince you of the value of said coach's knowledge. Penny wise, pound foolish type of thing.

FWIW, the best advice I got regarding ankling was "dont do it", but it wasn't a major issue for me anyway.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Just a general thought: you have to differentiate between something you do naturally and something that you are consciously doing or trying to do.

If your foot naturally moves a quite a bit from dorsiflexion (toes up) to plantarflexion (toes down) and back during one crank revolution and you're comfortable, so be it and forget the comment.

But if you're consciously flexing your foot in an attempt to "ankle," the comment might have some validity. Conscious "ankling" as a way to achieve that mythical round pedal stroke has been discredited thoroughly for decades now. As kbiker said, "don't do it."

As a footnote: Sometimes you can see a lot of dorsiflexion at the bottom of the crank circle with someone whose saddle is much too low. They will do this in order to extend their knee joint - - effectively "raise" their saddle, so to speak. But I don't think that's your problem.


----------



## multirider (Nov 5, 2007)

kbiker3111 said:


> How is that a coaching question???? Furthermore, its such a minor question it seems like a coach would be behooved to give an intelligent answer simply to convince you of the value of said coach's knowledge. Penny wise, pound foolish type of thing.


I agree with that! My fit was at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine where I expected to get superior treatment. It was stunning to be hear "excessive ankling" but then be told that an explanation would be "coaching" that would "cost extra". 

Mine was the last appointment of the day and Andy Pruitt had done the prior appointment. He ran way over time, so my appointment got started very late. Tami Dick, the fitter, mentioned numerous times that, in spite of the late start, she had to leave right on time because she had to pick up her kids. Thus, she was in a big rush throughout the appointment. Frankly, I felt pretty short-changed.

Anyway, it was just my normal pedal stroke -- I was not trying to do anything different. In spite of the fact that it was a 3D fit with video from the side and the rear, she did not review the video to show me what was meant by "excessive ankling", so I don't know how bad mine was or is. 

I continue to hear people talk about pedaling round strokes, applying force throughout the circle. Particularly at TT events. Most of them are long time cyclists - 20+ years. Is pedaling round circles a myth? Are there any advantages? Is it possible? 

Is there any value to one-legged drills? When I do one-legged drills (not at all frequently, perhaps once a month), I've noticed that I scrunch my toes at the bottom of the stroke. I've wondered if I should do that when pedaling with both legs to help round out my stroke. But I only think about it when doing one-legged drills.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

If by "pedaling circles" someone means "applying significant and useful force to the pedal around the entire crank circle," they're telling a myth. It's biomechanically impossible to do that. If they mean "don't pedal against yourself" (like exerting useless force, lifting one leg with the other, and such), it makes some sense. But really: research this with serious books and pubs and you will see that the winning racers simply push down harder on the downstroke than the also-rans. Riding fast is all about power (watts), not efficiency or, God forbid, elegance of pedal stroke.

When riding at low cadences and low speeds (like in loaded touring), at least attempting to pedal circles makes some sense because the time spent in each segment of the crank circle is so much longer than it is when riding fast at high cadences.

My take on one-legged drills: good if you need to do all your cycling one-legged.


----------



## jsellers (Feb 14, 2008)

Somebody wants some money to coach and I do believe ankling is a fit question.


woodys737 said:


> I don't agree 100% with your fitters comments, but then I'm not a trained fitter. My thinking is if a fit affects pedaling anything that changes how you pedal is subject to evaluation during the fit session.
> 
> After we raised the seat and lengthened the reach I still had a tendency to ankle. Pretty hard to unlearn something I had been doing for years. The fitter basically said focus on applying pressure more in the center of the pedal over the top and down through the stroke. I forget his exact words...He was just trying to get me to consciously think about it as I had a tendency to drop over the top through 3-4 o'clock-ish.
> 
> Over time I have changed how I pedal. It's subtle yet noticeably different if that makes sense. It was not hard to see the difference in our follow up session.


----------



## g-Bike (Jan 25, 2006)

Are you concerned about your pedaling tech as it causes pain or you feel you are wasting potential power? If you have always pedaled in this manner and it does not cause you pain as well as you are not trying to squeeze every possible watt out of your pedal stroke I say go ride your bike and enjoy yourself. If you do train with power and notice that after a few weeks in the new fit position your Average power over a specific distance that you routinely ride has gone up consistently then there you go. Dropping your heal during the pedal stroke does cause an eccentric contraction of the calve which is of no benefit but it does cause fatigue.


----------



## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

In my opinion it's a fit issue 100%. Slide the cleats back, towards the center of the foot and away from the toe. Maybe read up from Steve Hogg about midfoot cleats and how cleat position directly affects the ankling motion. Very much part of fit. Not so sure I'd trust that place you went.


----------



## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Email Andy and explain the situation, then ask for another appointment. I am sure they will accommodate you if you are unhappy. If they will not, then its time to address this situation on a forum.


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

multirider said:


> Frankly, I felt pretty short-changed.
> 
> 
> I continue to hear people talk about pedaling round strokes, applying force throughout the circle. Particularly at TT events. Most of them are long time cyclists - 20+ years. Is pedaling round circles a myth? Are there any advantages? Is it possible?


I think you were shorted as well, if they felt it necessary to mention it to each other they could have talked about it with you. Seems the focus was to get you out the door so the kids could be picked up. I would definitely ask for some more info and a 1 on 1 to review things.

As to circles, think of "turning circles" or a fluid motion/spinning vs. the staccato strokes that some riders have. Riders with a good cadence pedal technique can adapt to an attack.


----------



## AndyMc2006 (Oct 27, 2006)

I agree, I think it was a fit issue and I think you should express to him your dissatisfaction about the ankling issue but also the poor customer service. Your paying big money, i feel you should be treated as an important customer and not one that is rushed out the door. Also, I wonder if the other fitter mentioning the ankling and then not being willing to discuss without paying more is some sort of baiting tactic to get you to come for another session.


----------

