# 23c vs 25c for 215-pound non-racing rider?



## mikem1977 (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm 6'1", 215 pounds. I go on 15-30 mile rides a few times a week for exercise on roads that are pretty decent. No racing, but I like to keep up when riding with friends who are in better shape than me  

I just placed an order for 25c Continental GP4000s, but now I'm second guessing the 23c vs 25c. I'm not sure why I ordered the 25c...I googled and read they are more comfortable and just as fast, but that can't be so or all bikes would seemingly come with 25c instead of 23c tires?

I ride a 2008 Cannondale Synapse Carbon 5. Bike came with Maxxis Fuse 23c tires...only about 800 miles on them, but I think they are worn out already (rear tire is really squared off). 

Any advice? Switch my order to 23c GP4000s?


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm in the 175lb range right now. But last year I was heavier and pulled the 23's off my bike and installed 25's. I can run a lower pressure for better ride comfort and still have great flat protection. I don't need to run the tires at the 120 psi that the 23's required. I run my 25s at 105 rear and 100 front. But going to go a little lower this season to try and find the absolute sweet spot.

25's for a larger rider is actually smart. The larger tire provides more volume at the same pressure the 23's provide, therefor supporting your weight better.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mikem1977 said:


> .I googled and read they are more comfortable and just as fast, but that can't be so or all bikes would seemingly come with 25c instead of 23c tires?


Bikes come with 23's because racers use them. "Normal" people are much better off with 25mm tires. I'm 170 lbs and use 25mm tires (except for 28's on my dirt road bike) and I wouldn't go to 23's if they were free. When I switched to 25's from 23's I did not experience any difference in my average speeds.

Don't 2nd guess your choice as you did the right thing. Lower the pressures until you feel that they're just right. About 80lbs is nice for me and 90 today was a bit harsh. Don't be afraid to experiment.


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## Tommy Walker (Aug 14, 2009)

25's also provide better handling...good choice, I also purchase Conti's and 215 pounds


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## kupe (Sep 20, 2005)

Just make sure that your frame tolerances will allow for a 25c.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I am right around 200# and am switching to 25c this year the black GP 4000 is a great tire as it has the Black Chili compound. If it fits in your frame, you made a good choice. Don't look back.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

You shoulda got the Vittoria's over Conti's in a 25....


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## tone12 (Feb 4, 2007)

mikem1977 said:


> I'm 6'1", 215 pounds. I go on 15-30 mile rides a few times a week for exercise on roads that are pretty decent. No racing, but I like to keep up when riding with friends who are in better shape than me
> 
> I just placed an order for 25c Continental GP4000s, but now I'm second guessing the 23c vs 25c. I'm not sure why I ordered the 25c...I googled and read they are more comfortable and just as fast, but that can't be so or all bikes would seemingly come with 25c instead of 23c tires?
> 
> ...



No, Keep em! 25's are sweet. They really do help smooth out the ride and you aren't loosing a darn thing as far as being able to keep up with friends. I generally run them about 10psi less than 23's. I think you'll notice that your rear tire lasts a bit longer than 800 miles as well. I'm running a set of GP 4season's in 25c right now!


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

At 175, I run Michelin Pro 3 Race, 25mm tires between 90-100 PSI. They ride nicely and don't pinch flat at those pressures. I run Conti 28s on our tandem (310 pounds of riders,) at those same pressures.

I run 23mm tires on my Look, a 25 will fit, but just barely. I run 23s at 100psi.

I don't know what you guys gain by running 120 psi.


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## dan711 (Feb 26, 2010)

I agree with the other posters. Keep the 25mm tires. I owned my new bike for 2 weeks and was frustrated with the harsh ride. I took the stock 23's off and put on GP 4000 25mm tires set at 90psi. I'm 6'2" 190, and while the change is not night and day, it's definitely a noticeable change for the better.


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## ngordy (Mar 22, 2010)

Peanya said:


> You shoulda got the Vittoria's over Conti's in a 25....


I am a 260lb 44yr male and I ride Vittoria Rubino 23c. I inflate to 130psi front and 140psi rear. Yes, this does sound very stiff but a decent seat takes care of that. To go fast means that you can't have anything slow you down, so higher pressures and thinner tyres are the only way to go. The Rubinos are Kevlar Compound so that the chance of punctures from glass (can be quite a problem here in Australia) is virtually zilch. They also have a "3D" design so that the narrow middle band is harder and longer wearing while the outer bands either side are soft and grippy.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Go with 25c, no question.

I just bought a bike off Craigslist, and for the test ride, the guy had on 23s on it.

Still liked the bike enough to buy it, but it reminded me all over again why I left 23s behind many years ago, and never looked back. 'Uneccesary roughness' about covers it. 
.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ngordy said:


> I am a 260lb 44yr male and I ride Vittoria Rubino 23c. I inflate to 130psi front and 140psi rear. Yes, this does sound very stiff but a decent seat takes care of that. To go fast means that you can't have anything slow you down, so higher pressures and thinner tyres are the only way to go.


As long as you're happy then that's all that matters.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

ngordy said:


> I am a 260lb 44yr male and I ride Vittoria Rubino 23c. I inflate to 130psi front and 140psi rear. Yes, this does sound very stiff but a decent seat takes care of that. To go fast means that you can't have anything slow you down, so higher pressures and thinner tyres are the only way to go. The Rubinos are Kevlar Compound so that the chance of punctures from glass (can be quite a problem here in Australia) is virtually zilch. They also have a "3D" design so that the narrow middle band is harder and longer wearing while the outer bands either side are soft and grippy.


Welcome to the board. I don't have the research at my finger tips, but it has been shown that lower pressures and a wider tire section actually reduce rolling resistance. The concept for lower pressures is that it allows the tire to conform around irregularities in the road instead of having to lift your weight over the irregularities. 

When considering the width of a tire you first must realize that the area of tires touching the ground is roughly equal to your your weight divided by the air pressure. For easy math, lets say you have 2 sq inches (260#/130psi) in contact. Now consider what that 2" looks like. For a narrow tire it is along, skinny pattern. As the tire gets wider, the contact width gets wider, thus shorter. (remember the 2 sq inches is a constant) How is that long, skinny pattern acheived? It is acheived by the sidewall deflecting a lot. The sidewall does not have to deflect as much to create the shorter, wider pattern of a wider tire. The reduction in sidewall deflection reduces rolling resistance. The only place a narrow tire as an advantage is with regard to aero concerns. Frankly, for guys like you and me (I am 200#) the 2mm width aero difference is insignificant.


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

25's all the time.


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## Camp Connell Steve (Aug 23, 2009)

I weight 150 pounds, and I just love my Hutchinson Fusion 2 Tubeless 23 mm tires on good old Mavic rims. Bought the Stans conversion kit and paid attention to the video on Stan's website in doing conversion. Been riding these for about a year now and will _never_ go back. I run 85 psi in the back and 72 in the front. I live in the Sierra mountains with paved but roughish roads, and these tires are like riding on butter. They "mic" at 23.5 mm width on my Mavic rims, and I can't pinch flat them. Zero problems with the tubeless on both my road and mountain bike by the way (been running tubeless on my mountain bike for 4 years). Just remember you gotta add an ounce or two of Stans about once a year since the stuff dries out. When I pick up a thorn it seals within 5 or 10 seconds. After about a year, it no longer seals. No problem. Just pull the removable valve stem core that comes with the Stans conversion kit, put in a little more Stans and bingo. It seals right up. If you do decide to to the Stans conversion, be sure to call them to make sure the rim your are converting on your road bike will work with road tubeless tires and their conversion kit. Call them on the phone, don't email.
If I weighed 200, I would almost certainly be riding 25s, by the way. I did ride 25 mm Conti All Seasons for several years (we have lots of cold wet weather in the Sierra at 5,000 feet), but the precision and comfort and lower rolling resistance of the Hutchinson Fusion 2 Tubeless are just so much nicer.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Read THIS  from Zinn on the subject.


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## 103 (Oct 20, 2009)

It's like we are brothers from another mother. I just put on a set of black Conti GP4000 700-25C yesterday and pulled off my Michelin Krylion 700-23C tires. I also weigh in at 215lbs and consistently air up to 120psi to avoid pinch flats and pancaking the tires. The Michelin's are great if you're on grade-A smooth road, but riding on grade-B chip seal roads tends to give a harsh ride all the way up through the handlebars. After talking to the guys at my LBS, they highly recommended going with a 25C. I'm also a leisure rider (18-20mph) but like to try and keep up with the fast guys. I'll post some feedback tomorrow about the maiden voyage.


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## mikem1977 (Aug 5, 2009)

103 said:


> It's like we are brothers from another mother. I just put on a set of black Conti GP4000 700-25C yesterday and pulled off my Michelin Krylion 700-23C tires. I also weigh in at 215lbs and consistently air up to 120psi to avoid pinch flats and pancaking the tires. The Michelin's are great if you're on grade-A smooth road, but riding on grade-B chip seal roads tends to give a harsh ride all the way up through the handlebars. After talking to the guys at my LBS, they highly recommended going with a 25C. I'm also a leisure rider (18-20mph) but like to try and keep up with the fast guys. I'll post some feedback tomorrow about the maiden voyage.


Awesome. Looking forward to hearing about your maiden ride. My tires are on their way from probikefit.com (to the U.S.), so it may take me a few weeks.


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## teddysaur (Dec 30, 2004)

Mike T. said:


> Read THIS  from Zinn on the subject.


Yeah I was about to quote the 15% drop article too. I did a ride on Wednesday and I was amazed that I am constantly pedalling on uneven roads instead of bouncing around. Your tires pressure is the only source of suspension for road bikes.

It's going to be 80psi front and 90 psi rear for me.


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## 103 (Oct 20, 2009)

mikem1977 said:


> Awesome. Looking forward to hearing about your maiden ride. My tires are on their way from probikefit.com (to the U.S.), so it may take me a few weeks.


Put in a 60 mile ride today. All I can say is, where have these 25C's been my whole life? Super comfortable compared to the Michelin. The bike has a noticeably supple ride now. Before I would dread riding rough roads, now it's no problem. So far as the tire being slower, I didn't feel any difference and according to my mph avg, it was up about .5mph higher. Felt like the bike maintained speed easier. For now, I'm sold on these Conti's. :thumbsup:


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

103 said:


> Put in a 60 mile ride today. All I can say is, where have these 25C's been my whole life? Super comfortable compared to the Michelin. The bike has a noticeably supple ride now. Before I would dread riding rough roads, now it's no problem. So far as the tire being slower, I didn't feel any difference and according to my mph avg, it was up about .5mph higher. Felt like the bike maintained speed easier. For now, I'm sold on these Conti's. :thumbsup:


Halle-*&^%$-lujah! Your post should be quoted in bold, permanently, at the top of this forum. Hopefully you converted a few people today. 25mm tires are one of the best performance additions the average person can buy. I've had a couple of versions and my recent Vittoria Open Corsa CX with 320 tpi pumped to 80f/90r (for my 170lbs) are the best thing I've ridden on since tubulars (24 years ago).


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*krylions have 25mm too*



103 said:


> Put in a 60 mile ride today. All I can say is, where have these 25C's been my whole life? Super comfortable compared to the Michelin. The bike has a noticeably supple ride now. Before I would dread riding rough roads, now it's no problem. So far as the tire being slower, I didn't feel any difference and according to my mph avg, it was up about .5mph higher. Felt like the bike maintained speed easier. For now, I'm sold on these Conti's. :thumbsup:


FWIW 

to be 100% fair to Krylions they also have a 25mm size. I find Krylions are less cushy than GP4000, which I also ride, but their sidewalls are stronger than GP4000 and their puncture resistance is better and they last longer. I am currently on 23mm tyres but I will be converting to 25mm tyres when time is due to replace them.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

see also this thread. Even the Pro teams (Team Cervelo) are looking at 25mm tyres and lower tyre pressures and not only for cobble-stones either.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=204079


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## 103 (Oct 20, 2009)

acid_rider said:


> FWIW
> 
> to be 100% fair to Krylions they also have a 25mm size. I find Krylions are less cushy than GP4000, which I also ride, but their sidewalls are stronger than GP4000 and their puncture resistance is better and they last longer. I am currently on 23mm tyres but I will be converting to 25mm tyres when time is due to replace them.


Gotta agree with you on the Krylion's tear resistance. I had about 1500 miles on them and not one of the tires had any cuts or flatted.


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## tomcho (Jan 30, 2010)

With the preference leaning toward 25 tires why are they so hard to find? Are Conti 4000s and Vittoria Open Corsa Evos the two main options? I wound up getting a pair of Conti's on ebay for $100 which seems like a good deal.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tomcho said:


> With the preference leaning toward 25 tires why are they so hard to find? Are Conti 4000s and Vittoria Open Corsa Evos the two main options? I wound up getting a pair of Conti's on ebay for $100 which seems like a good deal.


You should have asked us where to get them. I have no problems.


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## 103 (Oct 20, 2009)

I paid $65 per tire and could of found it cheaper on the net but I try and support my local bike shop. Plus they installed them for free.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tomcho said:


> With the preference leaning toward 25 tires why are they so hard to find? Are Conti 4000s and Vittoria Open Corsa Evos the two main options? I wound up getting a pair of Conti's on ebay for $100 which seems like a good deal.


There's lots of high-quality options... the ones you mention, plus Michelin Pro Race 3s come in 25c, there's a couple of Schwalbes (Ultremo DDs come in 25c, as do Ultremo R.1s and @ 200 grams(!) too) plus there's the very low rolling-resistance Challenge Triathlon (listed as 23c, but actually runs 24-25mm on most rims) and some nice stuff from Grand Bois. Other tires too, probably too many to list.

Here's a place that has some of the hard-to-find ones... the Michelins, Contis, and Schwalbes should be easy enough to find elsewhere.

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/Tires.html
.


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## Lazy Spinner (Aug 30, 2009)

Another vote for 25c. I've been running Conti Ultra Gatorskins wire beads at 100/105 as my winter commuting tire. Since I'm essentially too lazy to swap wheels for weekend club rides, I've been very pleasantly surprised with the comfort but also that they are no slower than the Vittoria 23c that I run in the summer. The only penalty is weight on climbs but the Gators are heavier than a true performance tire.


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## sixate (Jul 6, 2009)

Just this week I went from a 23c to a 25c tire, and I'll never go back. Much more comfortable and doesn't slow me down. Actually, I was going a little faster than normal on rougher sections of the road. I went with Vittoria Diamante Pro II's because I already had the same tires in 23c so I knew I'd like them, and the weight penalty was less than 20g per tire. I don't care who you are you aren't gonna feel that weight difference while riding.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

I've ridden 23c for decades. Switched to 25c last season after all the hype and needless to say I won't be buying anymore 23c. I run both at 100psi and the comfort difference is substantial. They soak up the road chatter and smooth out the larger bumps. I don't notice any difference in rolling resistance or handling, so I don't see any negatives. In theroy they should last longer as well..we'll see. I have both Maxxis Detonator (funny name for a tire but a real nice tire for the price) and Vittoria Rubino in 25c.

brewster


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## OTG (Nov 16, 2001)

You people are nuts.

I can't think of any reason (outside of racing) to ride tires less than 28mm in diameter, and I'm only 155 lbs. I find it SO much more enjoyable to get a smooth ride, rather than getting kicked in the ass by every little crack and pebble on the pavement.
My choice training tire is the Schwalbe Marathon Plus 25mm (measures quite a bit bigger), or the 28 mm when I can fit it on my bike.

If I had a choice (sadly, my road frame won't allow anything larger than 23mm in the rear) I would be riding 28mm tires at ~85-90 psi for all my training.

Speed obviously isn't the primary concern in training, but I'm a firm believer that I'll feel better, be less fatigued, and therefore be faster (especially on bad roads) if the tires are able to soak up more of the vibration. 

Sure, for a race on good roads I'll generally use 23mm tires, but if there's a known quantity of crappy surfaces, I may switch to 25 or even 28 mm tires (for Battenkill, perhaps), on the grounds that a pinch flat will slow me down a whole lot more than a hair more wind resistance and 40 g of weight will.

I'll be in heaven f I can ever find a road bike that fits me as well as my Van Dessel and has room for 28mm tires + fenders.

-Owen


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## Camp Connell Steve (Aug 23, 2009)

*23mm versus 28mm*

I AGREE completely with OTC. The comfort that comes from 28mm tires are just wonderful compared to 23mms, and I weigh 150. The difference is that I am now running tubeless using Hutchinson Fusion 2s which mic at 23.5 on my Mavic rims. I bought the Stans conversion kit. (If you decide to do a conversion, be sure to call Stan first to make sure your rims are tubeless conversion compatible...) 
I WOULD still be running 28mm tires, which I used to do, but with the Fusion 2s I can and do run 85 psi rear and 72-75 front, I don't pinch flat. And it's not like I'm running on smooth pavement all the time; I ride plenty of rough paved roads here at 5,000 feet in the Sierra. These Hutchinson's are a pleasure to ride. For me too it is comfort first and speed second. But I'm not sure I'm giving up much speed by running these lower pressure in tubeless tires. But even if I'm a mile or two per hour slower, who cares? I love the comfort factor of lower pressures. And if its possible, this 23 mm tubeless setup feels even more compliant, precise, and buttery than the 28mm inner tubed tires I used to run. Hard to remember that far back, but the precision feels like the tubulars I ran for my first fifteen years of adult cycling back in the 1970s.
Anyway, I'm rambling, but the point is I agree with OTC. It's all about the comfort. I don't need to support my dentist by getting my fillings loosened each time I ride.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

FWIW most off-the-shelf standard size road bikes will *not* fit most 27-28mm tyres but most of those bikes *will fit* 25mm tyres which makes 25mm the most practical choice. But I agree, I dont see a lot of reasons in a 23mm tyre for road use, even for racing.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm 6'3", 215 lbs and I ride 700x23c tires. The best tires I've ridden on are the Continental 4000s and the Vredestein Fortezzas. Both seem to last a very long time (especially the Vreds) and I've used both 23s and 25s. I really can't tell the difference. To me, the difference is minimal at best. Try a pair of 25s and see if you can tell the difference.


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## rloyola0426 (Mar 26, 2009)

I would like to know if anybody has any experience fitting a 28 on an '09 Specialized Roubaix Comp. Right now I'm using Conti gatorskins in 25 but at 225 lbs, I was wondering if I could go larger. Any input would be appreciated versus buying a pair of 28's and going thru the process of trial and error. I would still like to be using the Continental Gatorskins, just in 28s instead of 25s


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