# Skratch Labs and Simple Sugars versus Hammer Nutrition and Maltodextrin



## dekindy (Jul 7, 2006)

I do the 160-mile Ride Across Indiana every year. Have followed Hammer Nutrition's recommendations regarding fueling and hydration strategies and used their products. Maltodextrin is their fuel of choice and anything with "ose" in the name is a forbidden fuel.

Have just read Feed Zone Portables by Allen Lim and in the introduction section he explains why he uses a combination of the Sucrose and Glucose in his Skratch Labs Electrolyte mix. Based upon his perspective I am convinced that I should be hydrating more and also eating less. This is based upon his analysis comparing calorie needs to internal energy stores and calories taken in through liquids in the form of his electrolyte mix. He also discusses Maltodextrin and does not see the need to use it.

So is it possible to use the forbidden "ose" energy sources without getting insulin spikes or are Hammer Nutrition claims about insulin spikes correct if sugars like glucose and sucrose are your energy source?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

dekindy said:


> I do the 160-mile Ride Across Indiana every year. Have followed Hammer Nutrition's recommendations regarding fueling and hydration strategies and used their products. Maltodextrin is their fuel of choice and anything with "ose" in the name is a forbidden fuel.
> 
> Have just read Feed Zone Portables by Allen Lim and in the introduction section he explains why he uses a combination of the Sucrose and Glucose in his Skratch Labs Electrolyte mix. Based upon his perspective I am convinced that I should be hydrating more and also eating less. This is based upon his analysis comparing calorie needs to internal energy stores and calories taken in through liquids in the form of his electrolyte mix. He also discusses Maltodextrin and does not see the need to use it.
> 
> So is it possible to use the forbidden "ose" energy sources without getting insulin spikes or are Hammer Nutrition claims about insulin spikes correct if sugars like glucose and sucrose are your energy source?


From my personal experience,
I do better with the combo. I seem to need some calories all the time. If I wait an hr to eat a Gu on a long ride, I kind of yo yo. More than once I have grabbed a Pepsi at a stop and put it in the 2nd bottle. I drink it on like the 2 or 3rd long climb of the day. For whatever reason, I seem to do well with that.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

iirc, Brendan Brazier's Thrive book also doesn't like maltodextrin either. The book is in my cubicle, so I can't quote it.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dekindy said:


> I do the 160-mile Ride Across Indiana every year. Have followed Hammer Nutrition's recommendations regarding fueling and hydration strategies and used their products. Maltodextrin is their fuel of choice and anything with "ose" in the name is a forbidden fuel.
> 
> Have just read Feed Zone Portables by Allen Lim and in the introduction section he explains why he uses a combination of the Sucrose and Glucose in his Skratch Labs Electrolyte mix. Based upon his perspective I am convinced that I should be hydrating more and also eating less. This is based upon his analysis comparing calorie needs to internal energy stores and calories taken in through liquids in the form of his electrolyte mix. He also discusses Maltodextrin and does not see the need to use it.
> 
> So is it possible to use the forbidden "ose" energy sources without getting insulin spikes or are Hammer Nutrition claims about insulin spikes correct if sugars like glucose and sucrose are your energy source?


Maltodextrin is simply a glucose polymer. It has the same glycemic index as glucose so you will get the same sugar spikes. The reason it is used is because it is not as sweet and it doesn't coat your teeth with those "little green sweaters" after a few hours. The reason to use more than one sugar is that you get faster absorption rates with mixed sugars (roughly 300 calories per hour with a single sugar source and 400 with a mixed sugar source). This is one of the reasons food tends to work at least as well as all the engineered products.

For energy during exercise, "ose" sugars are not metabolized as well and they cause gastric distress in some folks. Sugar spikes are not really an issue unless you tend to eat poorly while riding - a steady intake of table sugar would not cause a sugar spike because you're taking it in steadily.

What products are you considering that have "ose" sugars in them? Why do you think you need fewer calories during such a long ride? Typically the problem is more on the side of not getting enough calories (or at least not being able to process them).


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

A couple of years ago I started using Skratch Labs and making my own portables using the Feedzone Cookbook.
I've never felt better! I drink much more and the things I make to eat are much tastier than pre packaged bars. I've abandoned gels altogether.
My rides are rarely over 6 hours. 
I think a lot of what we've been sold (particularly by Hammer) is based on RAAM or other ultra events where riders go into a coma and can't chew/taste and can barely swallow? 
I am biased against Hammer since they appear to be a huge marketing enterprise for supplements which are of questionable value (like most supplements).
Supplements that work are on the banned substance list


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

What do they think malto is? It is just manipulated dextrose (glucose), they all behave alike, malto is nicer to drink because it is less sweet tasting.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Maltodextrin is made from corn starch that is processed further (in other parts of the world, it is wheat based)


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

What Kerry Irons said above ^^

and unless you are riding really slow, you do not get an insulin response to carbohydrate feedings during exercise. So Insulin is a red herring in that argument. 

If you 'need' carbs during a longer bout of exercise, the use of a glucose and fructose is best, especially if you are going for higher intensities and a longer duration (2+ hours all up intensity).

Here is a link to an article that is based on most of the latest data. I know it is hosted by Gatorade, but the author and most of the work came from non-Gatorade funded projects and is accepted by even the 'anti-carb' crowd.

SSE #106 Carbohydrate Supplementation During Exercise: Does It Help? How Much is Too Much?

I have a shorter and less 'sciencey' article with the same info, that if I can find the digital copy, I will post it.

With as much as we know, the general recommendations can only take YOU personally so far.

Practice the feeding/fueling strategy before the event under similar conditions.

The worst thing you can do is try something new on event day.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

I think this quote below is the meat and potatoes of what Lim is getting at. The entire interview can be read HERE.



> Cut n' paste from Slowtwitch (ST) interview...
> 
> ST: I’ve seen you promote a mantra of to the effect of: ‘Drink your hydration and chew your calories’. What does this mean and why do you promote it?
> 
> ...


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> I think this quote below is the meat and potatoes of what Lim is getting at. The entire interview can be read HERE.


He also demonstrates this with eggs





...Brendan Brazier's gel (in his books) are based on real food, with the base of dates (provides glucose) and agave nectar (fructose). Coconut oil also can be a fuel source (it's in the VegaSport gels).

maltodextrin can have some side effects, and considering that their are the basis for many commercial gels, might have a higher chance of suffering from the side effects: *Gas, Bloating*, Cholesterol,* Breathing Difficulty*, Weight Gain, Runny Nose, Allergic Reaction, Clogged Arteries, *Digestive Issues, Hives, Itching,* Decrease Blood-Sugar Levels

Bolded the stuff that can be annoying on a ride...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I used to take sports drinks. Quit doing it, even on long rides with med/hi intensity climbs (eg, doing a 100 mi, 10,000 ft climbing, in 6.5 hr time)

Just drink water with a touch of salt in it.

For calories, I packaged my own rice rolled in some peanut butter and jelly. Carry a few fig newton cookies and/or (as natural as possible) snack bars to mix things up. That's about it!

But for TRAINING rides under 2 hrs, I don't eat, even at high intensity. In fact, often training early in the morning right out of bed without food. I can go for 2hr at med intensity, with some high intensity intervals thrown in, and can do almost 3 hrs at low and medium intensity. If you train like this, it's quit an eye opener because it will not only teach your body to adapt and utilize fat better, but it will also teach you about pacing and how hard you can go before your blood glucose is so low that you start to get dizzy.

But I'm one of those "anti-carb" guy that Sdeer mentioned. Not an extremely anti-carb like some, but I believe in teaching my body to utilize fat first and foremost, and then dipping into the exogenous (external) carb sources. This has worked for me, and I've never been bonked due to a lack of carbs. Sports drinks are just expensive sugar'ed up water as far as I'm concerned.


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## dekindy (Jul 7, 2006)

Thanks very much for the replies. I am reading the Feed Zone Portables book and my buddy and I are going to try some of the rice cake recipes. Got along okay with Hammer Nutrition products but think this approach is going to be much better as all that stuff tastes like crap or is too dry.

I learned to separate fuel from hydration during a year on RAIN that was unseasonably cool. Lesser hydration requirement also caused calorie intake to be less also.


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## thatdrewguy (Aug 7, 2009)

MerlinAma said:


> A couple of years ago I started using Skratch Labs and making my own portables using the Feedzone Cookbook.
> I've never felt better! I drink much more and the things I make to eat are much tastier than pre packaged bars. I've abandoned gels altogether.


Same here. Picked up the Portables book and have been making my own bars to take on rides. I make a batch of sweet and a batch of savory bars and freeze them. I've found that they can keep for a month or more without losing moisture and drying out. They defrost after a couple of hours and are much tastier than a dry energy bar. Now I don't know what to do with all the energy bars left in the cupboard.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

dekindy said:


> I learned to separate fuel from hydration during a year on RAIN that was unseasonably cool. Lesser hydration requirement also caused calorie intake to be less also.


Excellent point. Likewise I separate my electrolytes from my hydration. On a long ride my liquid consumption can range more than 2X. There is no way you can manage fuel and electrolytes via your bottles under that kind of variation in fluid intake.


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## TehYoyo (Sep 16, 2012)

Full disclaimer before I answer, I'm a Skratch Labs Taste Agent (i.e. semi-sponsored by Skratch).

I've read Feed Zone Portables, and the parts you've mentioned. I've always, in the past, too, tended to stay away from artificial energy. I.e. gels, gu, blocks, bars, etc. For one, I drink a lot of water and that stuff dries me up like no other. For two, I feel like natural food is just better. It just seems like that makes sense, to me.

I don't think that "ose" is "forbidden." And even if it is, that's just Hammer's take on it and might just be marketing so they can sell their product (personally don't think so, though). I've never used their stuff (see above). I have made many Real Food recipes from Feed Zone Portables, home creations, etc. and I can tell you that, at least for me, everything tastes good, doesn't give me digestion problems, makes me want to eat it (big plus when you're 120 miles into a 160 and can't bonk), and has never given me any energy problems.

To each their own, though. Why don't you try the various stuff out and see how it affects you? You might even find that there's no difference.


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## Nubster (Jul 8, 2009)

Tailwind Nutrition. I'm giving it a try soon. I also have the Feed Zone Portables books and it's good stuff. I love the rice cakes and plan to use those this year more on the bike. I need to make a fresh batch tomorrow actually for this weekend.

Tailwind Nutrition - Mountain Bike Radio


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## jennyv (Nov 14, 2012)

Maltodextrin is made up of multiple glucose molecules linked together, and is mildly sweet to almost flavorless to the taste. It was originally marketed as a way to achieve "sustained energy" as opposed to peaks and valleys you might experience by downing a bunch of calories all at once.

The goal with any fueling strategy is to stave off the depletion of your glycogen stores. You are burning 500+ calories/hour so you are always running a calorie deficit, and yet you can physiologically only process between 200-300 calories/hour. So, you really want your calories in the most efficient form possible for immediate use by your body (ie. glucose and fructose).

As for Lim's video, it's fun to watch, but it's really just demonstrating osmosis, which isn't how our bodies actually fuel or hydrate. It's a good thing too because we'd be limited to a calorie rate that would barely let us get out of bed, let alone go ride our bikes for hours.

This is a little simplified, but we have active transport mechanisms (pumps) in the small intestine for glucose and fructose molecules. These are sodium-potassium pumps, like most of the pumps in our body (sweat pumps, cell fuel and waste, etc), and they require sodium ions present in the fuel mix to function. The transport mechanisms pump glucose/fructose + sodium from the small intestine into the bloodstream. This creates a tonicity difference that drives water into the blood as well. The transport process actually drives in water at a higher rate than if you were consuming just water alone, and it's the primary way we absorb fuel and electrolytes. None of that is happening in the egg demo.

Everything we consume goes into our stomach, where it's all mixed together and has to be broken down into small particles before it can pass into the small intestine. There aren't separate pathways for liquids and solids, so they have to be considered together as one when using both to meet calorie needs. Liquids pass the fastest, solids the slowest, and gels and chews somewhere in between (often athletes don't take in enough water with gels and chews to process them). Then in the small intestine, the fuel has to be digested into glucose and fructose so it can be absorbed via the active transport mechanisms. Foods that require a lot of digestive effort are taxing and can lead to GI distress or stomach problems, plus it's not doing your muscles any good while it's hanging around being digested.

Sipping 200-300 kcal per hour (about the practical limit most of us can utilize) of a fuel mix that mimics what our small intestines can absorb is least taxing on the digestive system and fuels muscles the fastest. Fuels with more complex molecules and solid foods take more digestive effort and time to break down into absorbable elements. Meanwhile, we're burning >500 kcal per hour at moderate+ intensities, always running a deficit, so the calories are needed without delay to keep energy levels high and preserve glycogen stores.

One last note: everyone is different so it's best to try a variety of approaches and see what works for you. Also, you might approach your fueling differently if you are out touring versus doing a brevet or road race where your levels of effort and length of time on the bike are different.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

jennyv said:


> Maltodextrin is made up of multiple glucose molecules linked together, and is mildly sweet to almost flavorless to the taste. It was originally marketed as a way to achieve "sustained energy" as opposed to peaks and valleys you might experience by downing a bunch of calories all at once.
> 
> Sipping 200-300 kcal per hour (about the practical limit most of us can utilize).


Yes, that is how maltodextrin was marketed but that had nothing to do with reality. Maltodextrin has the same glycemic index as glucose so there is no smoothing of peaks and valleys.

300 calories per hour is generally accepted as the upper limit for a single sugar, but 400 calories per hour is generally accepted as the upper limit for mixed sugars (e.g. fructose and glucose).


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## jennyv (Nov 14, 2012)

Yep, it was how maltodextrin was marketed - and very successfully. I still remember those graphs on the back of the packaging!

As for the calorie range, the 408 calories/hour is more of a theoretical maximum that was measured in a laboratory setting. The Jeukendrup study was looking specifically at the question, "Does combining multiple carbohydrates result in higher rates of absorption as compared to single carbohydrates?" He discovered that yes, it does, and I would highly recommend that any sports drink that you use contain multiple CHOs. (Tailwind, for example, uses glucose+sucrose).

However, the study did not really look at what I would call "real world" circumstances where there are practical limits on how you fuel. A 2:1 glucose/fructose solution could cause fructose malabsorption leading to GI ills. Your body also needs water to digest calories and taking in enough water to digest that many calories would be a challenge for most individuals. Or, the "taste/texture" of a 408kcal mixture may just taste awful to you. The study was also done at a lower heart rate where your GI system is less taxed. In other words, there may be other limiting factor(s) that influence how many calories you can take in vs. what they found in a laboratory setting.

We have found that most folks do well with a 200-300kcal/hour solution. You can find your "sweet spot" by listening to your body. If you feel bloated/satiated, it's probably a sign to dial back your calories. If you feel low energy, you can probably up it. Like you have said, everyone is different and we do have "outliers" - some folks who can tolerate that 400kcal/hour and others who can only go to 175kcal/hour.

Experiment with different fueling strategies and you'll find one that works for you.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

jennyv said:


> Maltodextrin is made up of multiple glucose molecules linked together, and is mildly sweet to almost flavorless to the taste. It was originally marketed as a way to achieve "sustained energy" as opposed to peaks and valleys you might experience by downing a bunch of calories all at once.
> 
> The goal with any fueling strategy is to stave off the depletion of your glycogen stores. You are burning 500+ calories/hour so you are always running a calorie deficit, and yet you can physiologically only process between 200-300 calories/hour. So, you really want your calories in the most efficient form possible for immediate use by your body (ie. glucose and fructose).
> 
> ...


If there is a difference in tonicity of solutions (eg, inside a cell vs. outside a cell), osmosis will happen whether there is a non-active or active transport system. If osmosis does not happen, then our skin would not shrink when submerged in water for prolonged period,.. and we would not suffer things like "water poisoning" if we drank too much water (because it is the osomosis drive that causes the body to absorb water even to the point of toxicity). The active transport system is simply a sophisticated version of "plain holes" in cell membrane, but the membrane is still considered semi-permeable, and will respond to differences in solution concentrations.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

The skin shrinks from submersion in water? Wrinkled fingers soles etc are due to calluses and the outer dead layers swelling.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

looigi said:


> The skin shrinks from submersion in water? Wrinkled fingers soles etc are due to calluses and the outer dead layers swelling.


Apparently my anwer is not totally correct, and neither is yours it seems. The pruning effect of the fingers and toes have more to do with the nervous system, it seems. The prunning effect is the the "how" the skin shrivel, not the "why".

Having said that, I still stand by my original reply to Jennyv regarding osmosis and solution concentrations. Put a cell in a hypertonic solution and it'll shrink; grow and even burst in hypotonic.


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