# Tiagra 4700 shifter pull ratio



## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

I'm trying to understand the best way to use my 10 speed hub wheels with new pull ratio Shimano shifters. 
From published info, the Tiagra 4700 cassettes use the same cog spacing as previous 10 speed units - 2.35 mm. This apparently means all old 10 speed cassettes will work with the 4700 group. 
The guys at Velo News say the new Shimano 11 speed cassettes use closer spacing, 2.18 mm. From what I can see, both 10 and 11 speed systems both use cogs that are 1.6 mm thick. 

Lastly, reports from at least one mechanic says 4700 rear derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800 units. Which makes me wonder...

Are the 4700 shifters unique, that they pull "more" per click than 5800/6800 shifters? 
But 4700 derailleurs are the same pull ratio as 5800/6800? 
This would seem to make sense, if 4700 and 5800/6800 derailleurs are truly interchangeable. Any one know?


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

The 4700 derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800/9000 and now even 9100. Remember that pull 'ratio' is a two part equation. Just because the derailleurs use the same design lever arm, doesn't mean the shifter does... So the 10sp cassette in use on the 4700 group shares the same spacing as previous 10sp groups because the shifter itself has a pull that complements the derailleur to make it work.
So a 4700 shifter on said derailleurs will only work with a 10sp cassette, and the 5800/6800/9000/9100 shifters will work with 11sp cassettes even when paired with a 4700 derailleur.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

rcb78 said:


> The 4700 derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800/9000 and now even 9100. ... So the 10sp cassette in use on the 4700 group shares the same spacing as previous 10sp groups because the shifter itself has a pull that complements the derailleur to make it work.
> So a 4700 shifter on said derailleurs will only work with a 10sp cassette, and the 5800/6800/9000/9100 shifters will work with 11sp cassettes even when paired with a 4700 derailleur.


OK, thanks. any comments on the the front derailleur compatibility? Will the 5800 front der work ok with the 4700 left shifter? The crank will be 50/34, 5800 or 6700 (on hand).

I'm looking to upgrade one or two older bikes and plan to use 4700 shifters, but go with 5800 or 6800 derailleurs. Use existing stock of 10 speed chain, cassettes, wheels.


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

It's 'supposed' to,, if that helps. And for that matter, what I said about the rear is also 'supposed' to work though I have not personally tried it. Shimano officially says no, but I've gotten the ok nod from one of them off the record.


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## kawal (Aug 17, 2017)

*10 speed Rear will not work with 11 speed shifter*

Just tried this by accident and used the 10 speed rear will not shift properly with 11 speed cassette and shifters. The stroke is longer and that make the shifting is OK for first 3..4 gears then skips a gear and OK again and skips again. 
In general the cable pull is different on the total system to make this a very bad setup. The 11 speed pull ratio is 2.7mm per gear and 10 speed is 2.3mm per gear. 
Because of the different pull ratio the derailleur also have different ratio (10 speed is 1.8 and 11 speed 1.44). Making all parts not interchangeable. 

Reference Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility 

There are some articles out there that it should work but it will absolutely not work as needed and shifting will be bad. I tested this and it will not work. Do not mix 11 speed and 10 speed rear derailleur. all 7.8.9.10 speed rear have the same pull ration so mix that if you like but never mix 11 with any of the other speed.




rcb78 said:


> It's 'supposed' to,, if that helps. And for that matter, what I said about the rear is also 'supposed' to work though I have not personally tried it. Shimano officially says no, but I've gotten the ok nod from one of them off the record.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

kawal said:


> Just tried this by accident and used the 10 speed rear will not shift properly with 11 speed cassette and shifters. The stroke is longer and that make the shifting is OK for first 3..4 gears then skips a gear and OK again and skips again.
> In general the cable pull is different on the total system to make this a very bad setup. The 11 speed pull ratio is 2.7mm per gear and 10 speed is 2.3mm per gear.
> Because of the different pull ratio the derailleur also have different ratio (10 speed is 1.8 and 11 speed 1.44). Making all parts not interchangeable.
> 
> ...


You may have mistaken the original question for something else, which is what you tried. You used 11 speed shifters and 10 speed derailleur.

This thread is about using the NEW long pull Tiagra 4700 10 speed shifters with 5800/6800 11 speed rear derailleurs. This is very different than what you tried. 

The new 4700 10 speed shifter is NOT compatible with the old 5700/6700 10 speed derailleurs, but IS compatible with old 10 speed cassettes and hubs when using 4700 or 5800/6800 derailleurs.


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## kawal (Aug 17, 2017)

So the 4700 10 speed has the same pull ration as the new 11 speed ?


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

For all intents and purposes yes, but that doesn't mean an 11sp shifter will work with a 10sp cassette or vice versa. Just like it used to be where you could mix and match derailleurs as long as the shifters matched the chain and cassette.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

kawal said:


> So the 4700 10 speed has the same pull ration as the new 11 speed ?


Yes, both rear derailleurs have a ballpark 1.4 ratio. 
I assume in your previous message you used an older Shimano 10 speed rear mech, which has a ratio of 1.7 - which will not work with 11 speed or 4700. 

The 4700 shifters have a pull per shift of about 2.9, which when multiplied by the 1.4 ratio gives the 10 speed cassette cog pitch of 3.95.

This 3.95 pitch has been the longtime 10 speed cassette standard for both Shimano and SRAM, and has not changed with the new 4700.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

Z'mer said:


> The 4700 shifters have a pull per shift of about 2.9, which when multiplied by the 1.4 ratio gives the 10 speed cassette cog pitch of 3.95.


Are you sure about this? I tested my 4700 RD just now, marking the cable in the big cog, shifting to small, and measuring the difference. I got about 21mm. Over 9 shifts, this implies an average cable pull of about 2.3mm, oddly the same as what the 4600 shifter is claimed to be.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

alexdi said:


> Are you sure about this? I tested my 4700 RD just now, marking the cable in the big cog, shifting to small, and measuring the difference. I got about 21mm. Over 9 shifts, this implies an average cable pull of about 2.3mm, oddly the same as what the 4600 shifter is claimed to be.


What else have you measured and compared it to? 5700/6700 ? 
This was derived by math from the knowns 
1) 4700 10 Speed cassette is same as 4600, and all other shimano 10 speed cassette
2) 4700 rear derailleur is compatible with 5800/6800 derailleur

Pitch for 1) is known, ratio for 2) is known, that leaves pull ratio to be computed.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

Z'mer said:


> What else have you measured and compared it to? 5700/6700 ?
> This was derived by math from the knowns
> 1) 4700 10 Speed cassette is same as 4600, and all other shimano 10 speed cassette
> 2) 4700 rear derailleur is compatible with 5800/6800 derailleur
> ...


I just pulled a 5600 STI shifter off a bike and measured 2.2cm over the whole range. It was so close to my 4700 number that I swapped the 4700 RD on a different bike with a 5600 RD just to see what would happen. It ended up impossible to index with about a half-shift worth of extra movement over the whole range, but not evenly distributed; it hesitated between big cogs and overshot on the small ones. 

What I'm interested in is 11-speed compatibility. At least one person reports the 4700 shifter pairs well with an 11S RD. You're saying, though, that the 4700 RD can pair with an 11S shifter. If the sprocket pitch differs between 10S and 11S, these can't both be true. 

https://www.bikeforums.net/18408796-post24.html


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

alexdi said:


> ... I swapped the 4700 RD on a different bike with a 5600 RD just to see what would happen. It ended up impossible to index with about a half-shift worth of extra movement over the whole range, but not evenly distributed; it hesitated between big cogs and overshot on the small ones.
> 
> What I'm interested in is 11-speed compatibility. At least one person reports the 4700 shifter pairs well with an 11S RD. You're saying, though, that the 4700 RD can pair with an 11S shifter. If the sprocket pitch differs between 10S and 11S, these can't both be true.


What problem are you trying to solve? What do you have now, and what do you want to do with it? 
Going from 10 speed to 11 speed means new 11 speed shifters, and maybe a new 11 speed compatible rear hub or wheel. Plus 11 speed FD and RD, 11 speed cassette. You may also need to check brake and shifter compatibility. 
If you have a 4700 group now, you may be able to save the FD and RD and re-use it for a shimano 11 speed upgrade. But why would you do it? Do you really need the extra gear?


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

Z'mer said:


> What problem are you trying to solve


Resolving conflicting statements. I was writing a comment on this and realized I was declaring what appeared to be an impossibility.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

alexdi said:


> At least one person reports the 4700 shifter pairs well with an 11S RD. You're saying, though, that the 4700 RD can pair with an 11S shifter. If the sprocket pitch differs between 10S and 11S, these can't both be true.


Is this what you are talking about? Read this site, quoted above by another poaster
The RD does not care about number of speeds. It translates cable pull to chain movement. It does this with a "ratio". If 2 different groups use the same RD ratio, then their RD are interchangeable. 
Cable pull * Derailleur shift ratio = Cog pitch​The shifter determines cable pull, so different cable pull * same shift ratio = different pitch. 

Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

I made an error above in the comparison. The successful example I linked was an 11S RD with 4700 shifters and a _10S_ cassette. That jibes with your assertion that the 4700 RD and 11S RDs are interchangeable. 

I do wonder why my cable pull measurements differ from your calculation, but it doesn't matter.


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## hpapagaj (Mar 15, 2018)

Hi all,


I have an older road bike with an Ultegra 6600 10 speed set. I want to change the shifters to a newer Tiagra 4700 10sp. After installing I realised that the Tiagra from 4700 series changed the pull ratio. What are my options? It will be possible to replace the casette with a newer 10 speed one? It should work after the change? Do I need to change the original rear derailleur too?


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

hpapagaj said:


> Hi all,
> I have an older road bike with an Ultegra 6600 10 speed set. I want to change the shifters to a newer Tiagra 4700 10sp. After installing I realised that the Tiagra from 4700 series changed the pull ratio. What are my options? It will be possible to replace the casette with a newer 10 speed one? It should work after the change? Do I need to change the original rear derailleur too?


You need to get the 4700 Front and rear derailleurs as well to make it all play well together. The old 4600 cassette and crank will work fine. 

If the old chain and cassette have high mileage, I'd replace them too, at least the chain if the cassette looks OK. Any 10S chain will be OK. 
Also assume you replaced the shift cables and housings? If not, good idea to do that as well. Usually these are packaged with the new shifters.


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## hpapagaj (Mar 15, 2018)

Z'mer said:


> You need to get the 4700 Front and rear derailleurs as well to make it all play well together. The old 4600 cassette and crank will work fine.
> 
> If the old chain and cassette have high mileage, I'd replace them too, at least the chain if the cassette looks OK. Any 10S chain will be OK.
> Also assume you replaced the shift cables and housings? If not, good idea to do that as well. Usually these are packaged with the new shifters.


I changed the shifters + full cables. The casette + chain are brand new, because this is a new bike (from old stock). Front derailleurs works fine with the new 4700 shifter.

The problem is with the rear one, the first 3-4 speed is fine, only above is problem. 

But after reading your reply, not the casette what matters, but the rear derailleur. My first thought was the casette because of the different spacing. I thought that rear derailleur itself does not matter too much, because it position is determined by shifter pull ratio.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

hpapagaj said:


> Front derailleurs works fine with the new 4700 shifter.
> 
> The problem is with the rear one, the first 3-4 speed is fine, only above is problem.
> 
> But after reading your reply, not the casette what matters, but the rear derailleur. My first thought was the casette because of the different spacing. I thought that rear derailleur itself does not matter too much, because it position is determined by shifter pull ratio.


Cassettes are the same for 6600, 4700 - you can use any Shimano 10S cassette from any series. 
Good to know you got the front derailleur to OK. 
Yes, the rear derailleur pull ratio changed for 4700, after being a standard for 20+ years across Shimano road groupsets. 

And as mentioned above in this thread, you can use the 4700 rear unit, or an 11s rear D like 5800 or 6800 if you want to go "better", or if they are easier to find.


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