# Front or Back Squats?



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Coaches, athletes, and couch potatoes: Forgive me if this has been done before--or done to death--which do you prefer and why? 

I lifted for years and feel pretty comfortable in the weight room. I do not have any joint or back problems. No injuries here. Racing season has ended and right now I am alternating between front and back squats. 5X5 one week of front; 5X5 the next week back. I also do a few other leg lifts (eg deadlifts), core, upper body, etc. 

Interweb bro science says that front squats are better for the quads. And back squats are better for glutes. 

Which is better for cycling?


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

Cycling is better for cycling. 

I got out of the weightroom and on the bike and improved every CPV, including sprinting. Also have two different friends who said they set new max powers this season after not having spent the winter in the weightroom. 

So for cycling, I just think cycling is better. Weight room is good for improving weight room.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Cycling is better for cycling. Agreed. Although I have a personal anecdote: I won my state's championship at the track after spending a winter in the weight room. But let's not get into that debate. For me, cycling is part of overall fitness. And so is lifting weights. And hiking. And swimming. And plenty of other things. Right now I am riding less. I raced dozens of times this past year and during my off season from racing I am enjoying lifting and other things. That said, it does not stop me from looking for an answer: Which lift is better for cycling? 

So thanks for your non answer. Does anyone have a real answer?


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

Real answer:

Why not just do both? If it targets two different muscle groups, and both groups are activated somewhat in cycling, then I'd just do both of them mixed in to an overall routine. Maybe not on the same day, but some how.


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

I think the answer is both - depending on what you are doing on the bike. I know that on a long ride there are portions where I'm using my quads way more, but also portions where I'm not and my glutes are being used more. Not trying to be snarky at all. I would love to be able to add weights to my routine, but it isn't happening given how my home is set up.

I absolutely agree that weight training has a place in overall fitness. But for me, I'm limited at the moment to riding and pushups (which are as close to a perfect exercise as there is imho.)


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## CoachTJCormier (Sep 16, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Coaches, athletes, and couch potatoes: Forgive me if this has been done before--or done to death--which do you prefer and why?
> 
> I lifted for years and feel pretty comfortable in the weight room. I do not have any joint or back problems. No injuries here. Racing season has ended and right now I am alternating between front and back squats. 5X5 one week of front; 5X5 the next week back. I also do a few other leg lifts (eg deadlifts), core, upper body, etc.
> 
> ...


Yeah I would do both. But from a conversation I had afew years ago with soem of the track coaches at T-Town, they said that they suggest fro roadies to do more fronts and trackies doing more back squats.
I do them both soemtimes in the same session soemtmes in different sessions.
To those who say just ride I think you miss the point.
I feel that adding strength training sessions helps cycling in many ways.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

edited for tangent.


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

I would stick with back squats since it activates more muscles particularly the glutes. Most of your pedal power comes from the hip flexors not the quads so it is important to work those glutes.


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## bitterertundra0 (Jun 17, 2012)

Since it happens to be on the picture you uploaded, I'd like to draw attention to the hip angle. The back squat looks more like an angle you'd be in when cycling. Strength training through full range of motion :thumbsup:.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

crowaan said:


> I would stick with back squats since it activates more muscles particularly the glutes. Most of your pedal power comes from the *hip flexors* not the quads so it is important to work those glutes.


Say WHAT now? :confused5::shocked:


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Sure, I have an a answer, it's easy. Real squats. They are "back" squats but lets just call them squats. Front squats are kind of silly in reality, and I'm not trying to start a flame war, but spreading weight across your clavicles simply reduces the weights you can handle and increases the risk of injury because you are front loaded (if you try to reach levels to tech failure). There is no reason to front squat. You simply lower the load and subsequently reduce the benefit. Spreading weight across your clavicles serves no purpose. Split squats, leg pressing on negatives, nice and slow... Plyometrics... Great.

if you want more targeted "cycling" range squats use chains instead. Drop weight off your max (chains are usually 45lb. ea.) and let the weight adjust from the bottom to the top of the lift. As the chain bundles on the ground the load lessens. As you rise and it lifts off the floor it increases. You can get a similar effect with bands but I HATE squats with bands, they feel unnatural to me. Chains on the other hand are great, albeit a bit loud in the gym... But the work your core stabilizing muscles will do will absolutely shock you. I love the cage.


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

robdamanii said:


> Say WHAT now? :confused5::shocked:


Should I have said hip flexors and extendors, basically the muscles that move the hips. Which includes the quads to some extent, so I was wrong there. But most of your power comes from the hip joint not the knee joint.

I'll even provide my source.
Sure its about mountain biking but its still pedaling.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

crowaan said:


> I'll even provide my source.
> Sure its about mountain biking but its still pedaling.


But what's the point of that workout program? It says it's to build max strength. But what good is squatting or deadlifting all this weight if you can't adequately transfer it to the bike in a meaningful way?

Maybe you can increase your max wattage, maybe, but what good is that going to do if you still lack the power necessary to get you in position to sprint? 

What's it going to do for your 1 min power, 5 min power, or 10 min power? That's why I don't get the weightroom stuff if your goal is simply to improve cycling performance. There just doesn't seem to be that much of a correlation and my experience and that of a few others I know is improved performance (on the road) when the weightroom is taken out of the equation.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

jajichan said:


> What's it going to do for your 1 min power, 5 min power, or 10 min power? That's why I don't get the weightroom stuff if your goal is simply to improve cycling performance. There just doesn't seem to be that much of a correlation and my experience and that of a few others I know is improved performance (on the road) when the weightroom is taken out of the equation.


I have not doubt the Internet will turn up articles on both sides of weightlifting argument. However, as OP discussed there are more reasons to lift than cycling performance alone, e.g. another form of exercise while taking time off or reducing time on the bike. 

I don't think anyone says, can I lift weight instead of cycling to improve my cycling. The question is whether adding some weight lifting to a cycling program will improve cycling (and possibly overall general health - bone density, core strength, etc.). The answer to that question appears to be yes, some weightlifting in combination with cycling can improve cycling performance. 

Actual science trumps anecdotal experience. Abstract only: Strength training improves 5-min all-out performance following 185 min of cycling


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

PBL450 said:


> if you want more targeted "cycling" range squats use chains instead.


Good idea. I used chains when benching back in the day.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

Rob was questioning your statement about hip flexors being the source of pedal power then you say to work glutes.

Glutes are hip extensors, hip flexors include psoas and rectus femoris (middle quad).

Probably typo on your part but confusing as you posted originally.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

jajichan said:


> But what's the point of that workout program? It says it's to build max strength. But what good is squatting or deadlifting all this weight if you can't adequately transfer it to the bike in a meaningful way?
> 
> Maybe you can increase your max wattage, maybe, but what good is that going to do if you still lack the power necessary to get you in position to sprint?
> 
> What's it going to do for your 1 min power, 5 min power, or 10 min power? That's why I don't get the weightroom stuff if your goal is simply to improve cycling performance. There just doesn't seem to be that much of a correlation and my experience and that of a few others I know is improved performance (on the road) when the weightroom is taken out of the equation.


Yes, there are plenty of things I do so that I can get to the line with enough power to sprint. And there is a time and a place for very specific training. Now that I'm entering off season mode, my winter training is much less specific to racing. On the bigger picture, I like to broaden my activity base so that my mind gets a break from the intensity that comes from a season of dozens of races. I already mentioned swimming, hiking, and other activities which may not be optimal for bike racing. So without even engaging in the argument on whether weights are optimal for cycling, I will lift weights. 

Maybe weights are not for you. That's OK! I like to lift in the winter months.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> Actual science trumps anecdotal experience. Abstract only: Strength training improves 5-min all-out performance following 185 min of cycling


No argument there. And that's a good link demonstrating some crossover.

But that sort of circles back to the original issue regarding specificity:

From your link:

Twenty well-trained cyclists were assigned to either *usual endurance training combined with heavy strength training* [_E+S; n_=11 (♂=11)] *or to usual endurance training only *[_E; n_=9 (♂=7, ♀=2)].

So what that doesn't address is whether or not specific, on the bike work would trump the weightroom. 

If they had another group of 20 doing VO2 max intervals or something similar, I'd place my bets on that group.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

jajichan said:


> If they had another group of 20 doing VO2 max intervals or something similar, I'd place my bets on that group.


Me too! ...especially if we're talking about a 8-12 week study. But I don't know if VO2max intervals are _best_ for winter training._ Best_ meaning optimal for fitness in the summer. Rather than short study, it would be nice to see a two year study with periodized training. 

Also, I question whether VO2max intervals in the winter are best for keeping a good balance on and off the bike, which prevents burnout and allows for faster/harder training when it counts, at least that has been my experience. As the debate rages on, I will continue with my personal preference: Variety. 

Good articles from the good Dr: 
Off-Season and Winter Gym Sessions: Yes or No?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I am alternating between front and back squats. 5X5 one week of front; 5X5 the next week back.


I do squats twice a week in my regular split. Maintain your regular squats and add the front squats as a supplementary, not replacement, exercise, maybe five sets of eight to ten reps.
Start really light and inside a cage. It takes time to learn the movement and it is harder to balance than back squats. Some squatters put their elbows forward and hold the bar with a palms-up grip. Some cross their arms and put their hands palms down on top of the bar.
They are quite different from regular squats, after doing them you can feel the difference.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Local Hero said:


> Good idea. I used chains when benching back in the day.


Yep, same principal. The bench chains are shorter with collars. The longer chains usually don't have a collar, sometimes they will have a collar and leader but not in my gym, it's just a big heavy chain. I just lay it over the bar ends and I bring clips I got in my local hardware store to use to adjust the amount of chain lifted off the floor. No clip means most chain on the floor=lightest option. Clip so that at the top of the rep almost the whole chain comes up=heaviest option. (I know you know that, just figured if anyone wanders past...)

It's impossible for me to use them without at least some bunching on the base of the cage. That's what I mean by loud, and it bugs some people.

I like lifting and I try to use it to help my cycling and other sports but I'd lift just to lift.


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

BacDoc said:


> Rob was questioning your statement about hip flexors being the source of pedal power then you say to work glutes.
> 
> Glutes are hip extensors, hip flexors include psoas and rectus femoris (middle quad).
> 
> Probably typo on your part but confusing as you posted originally.


That's my bad. Its been a while since I took anatomy. Clear that up in my second post.

Strength training has actually been shown to improve endurance but has no effect on VO2 max. Higher lactate threshold, likely due to greater use of slow twitch muscles to power the bike, rather than the fast twitch muscles which produce a lot more lactic acid.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Me too! ...especially if we're talking about a 8-12 week study. But I don't know if VO2max intervals are _best_ for winter training._ Best_ meaning optimal for fitness in the summer. Rather than short study, it would be nice to see a two year study with periodized training.
> 
> Also, I question whether VO2max intervals in the winter are best for keeping a good balance on and off the bike, which prevents burnout and allows for faster/harder training when it counts, at least that has been my experience. As the debate rages on, I will continue with my personal preference: Variety.
> 
> ...


Last night was a back squat, deadlift, calf raise routine. I may add pistol squats. Every other week or every third week I will replace the back squat with front squats and lunges. It's a work in progress.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

late reply here

Cycling involves mainly the quadriceps first and foremost, followed by the hamstrings. Gluts are a distance third.

But the "quads" have 4 major muscle groups, from wiki:



> It is subdivided into four separate portions or 'heads', which have received distinctive names:
> 
> Rectus femoris occupies the middle of the thigh, covering most of the other three quadriceps muscles. It originates on the ilium. It is named from its straight course.
> 
> ...


Quadriceps femoris muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And of these 4 groups, it is the _vastus lateralis_ group that contributes to the overwhelming majority of your power. So you will want to train the vastus lateralis.

So here is the deal. There are 2 factors to consider when squating, and these 2 factors can be combined together to give you a permutation of 4 possible positions (generally speaking).

factor 1:
*Frontal* squat hits the quads much more then the gluts. *Back* squat hits the gluts much more than the quads.

factor 2:
Extremely *narrow* stance hits the *outside* part of the quads. Extremely, *wide* stance hits the *inside* part of the quads. All stances in between hits a mix of muscle groups, depending on how wide/narrow the stance is.

So you have frontal, back, narrow, wide.

To optimally target the vastus lateralis muscle, you want to do _narrow-stance_ *and* _frontal_ squat. Narrow-stance and _back squat_ will also hit the vastus lateralis but to a lesser degree.

Want to target your gluts more? Then do wide-stance and back squat.

But usually, nobody just go to the gym to work on the vastus lateralis solely. Reason is because your legs will develop a power imbalance. An overpowering muscle group can actually cause injury to your leg. It's advised that you also hit all the rest of the legs, including the hamstrings. Your legs are only as strong as its weakest muscle, so don't forget to work on hamstrings too. When doing hamstrings, best to go light weight and hight reps to avoid injury. Btw, deadlift is an exercise that also hit the hamstrings. So if you deadlift, especially straightlegged deadlift, then you're doing hamstrings too.

Gluts contribute to some power in cycling, but they're not as significant as the vastus lateralis. Most endurance cyclists have well developed quads, but their gluts are relatively flat as a pancake. If anything, I think cyclists should work on their gluts not because of trying to improve their cycling, but because I'd imagine no woman likes a man with a pancake flatass!


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

aclinjury said:


> Your legs are only as strong as its weakest muscle, so don't forget to work on hamstrings too. When doing hamstrings, best to go light weight and hight reps to avoid injury. Btw, deadlift is an exercise that also hit the hamstrings. So if you deadlift, especially straightlegged deadlift, then you're doing hamstrings too.


So are you recommending high rep deadlifts and straighlegged deadlifts?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

dcb said:


> So are you recommending high rep deadlifts and straighlegged deadlifts?


yes. and when I say high rep, i mean 20 reps/set, for 3 sets. Use your judgement and pick a weight that you can perform this while still keeping good form. I like to pick a weight that would exhaust my legs and make me struggle a bit in the last 3-4 reps, but still keeping "ok" form. Obviously my form on these last 3-4 reps will not be as nice as when I was starting the set, but that's acceptable to me.

It's always safer to start light and build up, and stay injury free, than it is to start heavy and get hurt. Number 1 goal in weightlifting should be to avoid injury. Can't build muscle if you're on the injury list!


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## bitterertundra0 (Jun 17, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> yes. and when I say high rep, i mean 20 reps/set, for 3 sets. Use your judgement and pick a weight that you can perform this while still keeping good form. I like to pick a weight that would exhaust my legs and make me struggle a bit in the last 3-4 reps, but still keeping "ok" form. Obviously my form on these last 3-4 reps will not be as nice as when I was starting the set, but that's acceptable to me.
> 
> It's always safer to start light and build up, and stay injury free, than it is to start heavy and get hurt. Number 1 goal in weightlifting should be to avoid injury. Can't build muscle if you're on the injury list!


Food for thought:
In the traditional deadlift, it can be easier to keep good form with higher weight. If you start cheating the exercise, the weight can deviate off of a perfect vertical path and still allow you to complete the lift. With a heavy weight, cheating throws you off balance. This doesn't mean go home and slap 400lbs on the bar and go throw out your back trying to do a single rep.

To me and many others (Mark Rippetoe for example), squats and deadlifts are strength exercises. As such they should involve both anaerobic and CP systems (like you would use in sprinting on the bike). 5 sets of 5 for these two exercises and save the sets of 20 reps which work only the anaerobic system for exercises like the straight leg deadlifts and any one-legged exercise like lunges.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

bitterertundra0 said:


> Food for thought:
> In the traditional deadlift, it can be easier to keep good form with higher weight. If you start cheating the exercise, the weight can deviate off of a perfect vertical path and still allow you to complete the lift. With a heavy weight, cheating throws you off balance. This doesn't mean go home and slap 400lbs on the bar and go throw out your back trying to do a single rep.
> 
> To me and many others (Mark Rippetoe for example), squats and deadlifts are strength exercises. As such they should involve both anaerobic and CP systems (like you would use in sprinting on the bike). 5 sets of 5 for these two exercises and save the sets of 20 reps which work only the anaerobic system for exercises like the straight leg deadlifts and any one-legged exercise like lunges.


^^^ yep.


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## crowaan (Aug 13, 2013)

I completely disagree with everything aclinjury said. Refer to my previous posts about what muscles are actually used to pedal. Your quads primarily move your knee joint, power for your pedal stroke comes primarily from the hip.

Also, high rep deadlifts, really? Is your source for this one wikipedia as well?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

crowaan said:


> I completely disagree with everything aclinjury said. Refer to my previous posts about what muscles are actually used to pedal. Your quads primarily move your knee joint, power for your pedal stroke comes primarily from the hip.
> 
> Also, high rep deadlifts, really? Is your source for this one wikipedia as well?


^^^ yep... High rep deadlifts? I can't even imagine... Speed deadlifting? I just don't understand...


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## bitterertundra0 (Jun 17, 2012)

crowaan said:


> I completely disagree with everything aclinjury said. Refer to my previous posts about what muscles are actually used to pedal. Your quads primarily move your knee joint, power for your pedal stroke comes primarily from the hip.
> 
> Also, high rep deadlifts, really? Is your source for this one wikipedia as well?


I read your blog. Judging by the dates of the posts, perhaps you were inspired to do the "Strength Training for Cyclist" parts 1 and 2 by this thread. I agree with much of what is said there, and it's obviously more in-depth than what can reasonably be posted in a single post on a forum. Specifically, I like #2 and #5 of the top 5 reasons cyclists should pump iron in part 1. Those hadn't been brought up here. It seems we have similar interests in the search for knowledge regarding weight training. If you haven't yet, check out Kelley Starrett on the web or his book "Becoming a Supple Leopard". He's a jacked-up looking cross-fit dude, but has trained pro cyclists. 

Minor quibble in part 2 of the blog post about weight training... that picture of the girl doing squats. Nice eye candy, but that form is atrocious. She has a narrow stance so the hip impinges at the bottom of the lift preventing full range of motion at the hip, and she's looking up so the neck is not in line with the spine which causes loss of power and hyper-extension of the spine exposing her to potential injury.

P.S. Only skimmed the other blog articles, but seemed pretty decent. I'll be back.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

When lifting 5 by 5, how much rest between sets? 

Rest interval between sets in strength training. [Sports Med. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

_When the training goal is muscular hypertrophy, the combination of moderate-intensity sets with short rest intervals of 30-60 seconds might be most effective due to greater acute levels of growth hormone during such workouts. Finally, the research on rest interval length in relation to chronic muscular endurance adaptations is less clear. Training with short rest intervals (e.g. 20 seconds to 1 minute) resulted in higher repetition velocities during repeated submaximal muscle actions and also greater total torque during a high-intensity cycle test. Both of these findings indirectly demonstrated the benefits of utilizing short rest intervals for gains in muscular endurance. _

60 seconds?


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## bitterertundra0 (Jun 17, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> When lifting 5 by 5, how much rest between sets?
> 
> Rest interval between sets in strength training. [Sports Med. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> ...


Check out this program, it has guidelines for rest based on how well you complete each set.
StrongLifts 5x5: A Simple Workout To Get Stronger


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Yes thank you. Prior to my post I read and enjoyed that blog. My question stands though, as I do not know if the information in that blog--while good--is particularly germane to cycling.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

crowaan said:


> I completely disagree with everything aclinjury said. Refer to my previous posts about what muscles are actually used to pedal. Your quads primarily move your knee joint, *power for your pedal stroke comes primarily from the hip.*
> 
> Also, high rep deadlifts, really? Is your source for this one wikipedia as well?


You stated in here, and in your blog, that the hip flexors are the main driving force. 

According to this article,
On the biomechanics of cycling. A ... [Scand J Rehabil Med Suppl. 1986] - PubMed - NCBI,
the hip flexors contribute about 4% to the total force in extending the knee (as measured at the cranks).

But I understand, you did correct your word in here to say hip "extendors" (sic) when you were pointed out. For a person who has taken anatomy, even if it's been "awhile", I would have expected you to differentiate between "extendors" (no such thing) and "extensors". (Honestly, did you really take anatomy?).

Additionally, in the book entitled Biomechanics of Cycling by Rodrigo R. Bini, the author stated that studies indicated the knee joint is the main driver of power, contributing ~60% of total power, followed by hip and ankle.


So now that we have established that the main driver of power comes from the knee joint, and therefore from the quadriceps, let check out the 4 quadricep muscles. (At this point, if you still want to contest about where the main power delivery come from, then you'll need to come up with worthy sources from the academia, not some dude's blog, agree?). 

The 4 quadriceps are comprised of the rectus femoris, vastus lateralis, vastus intermedius, and vastus medialis. The rectus femoris is considered primarily a hip flexor muscle (but it can also act weakly to extend the knee too). When a person is in a seated position (such as on a bicycle), the rectuc femoris is very weak at contributing to extend the knee. In such seated position, all power that goes into extending the knee joint comes from the vastus lateralis, vastus intermedius, and vastus medialis. And of these 3 muscles, the vastus lateralis is the biggest muscle of them all, and therefore the vastus lateralis is the dominant contributor of knee extension.

I have given 2 sources from the academia regarding power generation on a cycling ergometer. Your "Bikejames" source is a nothing but a blog, who pulled his images from "Pinkbike", seriously, pinkbike? Wow since when did pinkbike become the gold standard of a research gateway? I thought those guys on there mainly talk about how radical they can case a jump. I like how you mock me for using a wiki link, and then failing to see the irony of seeing your "source" picking images from pinkbike. Also like how you post a pic of Arnold the steroid freak abuse; heart surgery comes to mind when I see Arnold now.


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## bitterertundra0 (Jun 17, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> Additionally, in the book entitled Biomechanics of Cycling by Rodrigo R. Bini, the author stated that studies indicated the knee joint is the main driver of power, contributing ~60% of total power, followed by hip and ankle.


So, back to the OP's question. During the back squat, muscles are used in about the same proportion as a pedal stroke.
http://www.hertssportsvillage.co.uk/downloads/The Effect of Back Squat Depth.pdf


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

ACL - Interesting stuff and thanks for posting the research. In the end though, this is all just majoring in minutia that is unlikely to have any direct impact on pedaling power. The evidence for weight training having a positive impact on cycling performance is equivocal and that's putting it nicely. 

I take issue with your recommendation for high rep deadlifts for this reason:
Although there are people out there with the experience and technique required to keep their backs in a good position during a hi rep deadlift set, they are few and far between. I think it's a bit irresponsible to recommend them to novices or intermediates. A safer alternative for hi rep hip extension would be reverse hyperextentions on a ball, bench or hi table. 

There's a similar issue with narrow stance squat technique in that although it's achievable by select individuals with experience and good mobility, it will present some pretty big issues for a lot of people.

In regard to this debate about which particular squat or deadlift exercise is going to most directly mimic pedaling.......good grief, it REALLY doesn't matter. Again, even if you find the best exercise to mimic your particular pedal stroke, it still may not help you push on the pedals harder during a meaningful interval on your bike. 

It's great to look at the studies, however there are several other things that will impact contributions from particular muscles that may make you fall outside the percentages shown in the research like: 
1. torso length
2. upper leg length
3. lower leg length
4. foot size 
5. crank length
6. pedal position
7. overall bike fit
8. hands on hoods, in the drops or on the tops
9. pedaling seated or standing
10. etc........
I'm sure I'm leaving things out but this should be enough for now. 

Regarding the studies done showing muscle recruitment ratios, unless you are built exactly like the average person in those studies and you ride a bike that's set up exactly the same as those they used in their labs, it's unlikely that you will recruit your muscles during pedaling just like they did in the lab. 
There are also problems with surface electrode measurements that are well known.

When it comes to exercise selection, don't think about squatting or deadlifting any significant amount of weight until you have mastered the goblet squat and the hip hinge. If you can't do both of those movements, you have no business loading up a barbell. Also, don't forget about single leg movements.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

dcb said:


> ACL - Interesting stuff and thanks for posting the research. In the end though, this is all just majoring in minutia that is unlikely to have any direct impact on pedaling power. The evidence for weight training having a positive impact on cycling performance is equivocal and that's putting it nicely.
> 
> I take issue with your recommendation for high rep deadlifts for this reason:
> Although there are people out there with the experience and technique required to keep their backs in a good position during a hi rep deadlift set, they are few and far between. I think it's a bit irresponsible to recommend them to novices or intermediates. A safer alternative for hi rep hip extension would be reverse hyperextentions on a ball, bench or hi table.
> ...


Thanks dcb. What a great reply! High repping dead lifts is much more likely increasing the likelihood of injury rather than decreasing it. And absolutely, building strength to be generally applied is the goal, not crazy hyper-specific modified lifts that aren't likely to see application in reality... Also, I am a fan of and add in moderate (and some high) intensity Plyos 1X per week. It helps keep the strength gains functional for cycling, skating, skiing, and life. At least IMO. Thanks again.


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## GlazedHam (Mar 1, 2005)

I have no Knowledge to help the OP decide, but I agree with the poster who said mix it up. There is something compelling about the way the front squat engages the hips over a greater range of motion that draws me to them when I'm in a long term maintain strength phase.


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## FullRageAce (Nov 2, 2014)

Front squats are pretty rough on the collar bone, I think its less natural of a movement than regular squats. Make sure you get a good range of motion with both, try and at least go parallel or lower. (ATG) Find weight ranges that are not too heavy for you, poor form and too heavy will get you hurt quick.
I think I have videos on youtube of me doing them as examples.

Other exercises to mix in would be to help strengthen and tone your glutes, quads, hams, calfs are:
Hack squat
lying leg curls (those hamstrings)
Another good exercise would be lunges with dumbbells (or a barbell but why risk it).
Dead lifts are a nice compound exercise that hits your back and legs as well.

Having a diverse lifitng routine will help strengthen
supporting muscles to help you excel in your staple exercies as well.

You wanna kill your legs, like DOMs for a week.
Try stiff legged dead lifts, do them on a lifted box and get that extra extension.

Idk about helping cycling but these will help you build muscle mass, keep your test levels higher, help circulate more oxygen to muscles, keep muscles flexible, increase neuromuscular connections. You will be less prone to injuries and recover quicker, not to mention bone density since you are putting a load on essentially your whole body.
Don't forget to have a clean diet and get enough sleep. 
Non of that 200 bananas a day stuff...


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

crowaan said:


> Should I have said hip flexors and extendors, basically the muscles that move the hips. Which includes the quads to some extent, so I was wrong there. But most of your power comes from the hip joint not the knee joint.
> 
> I'll even provide my source.
> Sure its about mountain biking but its still pedaling.


Just incorrect terminology. Hip extension, knee extension and dorsiflexion of the foot drive the pedal stroke. All posterior chain musculature.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

aclinjury said:


> late reply here
> 
> *Cycling involves mainly the quadriceps first and foremost, followed by the hamstrings. Gluts are a distance third.
> *
> ...


I generally like your replies, but the bolded statement proves you know very little about power generation during the pedal stroke. 

Glutes are typically "flat as a pancake" because we sit all day and they are poorly activated by most of our daily activities. Compensations in the low back are extremely common and other posterior chain musculature is very common. Actually spending time working on glute strength will give you more power on the bike (if integrated properly and the neuromuscular patterns are developed with specific work on the bike.) I've seen it in practice with the athletes I treat. It's actually quite surprising the prevalence of glute muscle dysfunction because of the sitting we do.

More info:
Frontiers | Feedback of mechanical effectiveness induces adaptations in motor modules during cycling | Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience

See particularly 8 and take note of W2 and W3. Yes, there's quad function in W1, but there's a huge portion of the pedal stroke that's hip dominant (and quads are a two joint muscle, don't forget.) The explains why people become "quad dominant" if they have poor glute function. 

Now, if actually utilizing those muscles is a possibility, how does it not produce more power?

Balance is everything. Strength trumps all the bike work you can do. If you have a weak foundation (or imbalanced foundation) you're not hitting your performance potential nor are you protecting yourself from injury. Why do you think many cyclists have knee pain? A good portion of them are due to an overworked, overly dominant quad with poor posterior chain muscle recruitment. Balance, balance, balance.

And this doesn't even delve into the concept of lifting being an exercise that promotes HGH and testosterone production, both of which are necessary to strength growth and recovery.


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## ycastane (May 1, 2014)

In my opinion the only reason to do front squats is because it gives you better lower back posture as you go down, meaning it gets used slightly less and also it targets the quads more. Collar bone when doing front squats? Whomever is doing it this way is doing it wrong and I'm sure with just the bar it has to be uncomfortable, bar is supposed to be on top of the front delts, I particularly do 2 sets of front squats and use them as my warm up and continue the rest with regular squats.


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