# Value of Derailleurs (7, 8, 9...)



## SpikedLemon (May 15, 2015)

Considering that I'm looking at a budget bike: I'm trying to understand the value of the derailleurs. There seems to be much talk of better components leading to a better ride but I find it hard to understand what I'm missing here on this specific, much talked about, item.

Is having a Shimano 7-speed (A070/Tourney/2300?) a noticeable difference from a Shimano 8-speed (Claris/2400)?

What do you get, beyond an additional gear ratio, in practical terms?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

SpikedLemon said:


> Considering that I'm looking at a budget bike: I'm trying to understand the value of the derailleurs. There seems to be much talk of better components leading to a better ride but I find it hard to understand what I'm missing here on this specific, much talked about, item.
> 
> Is having a Shimano 7-speed (A070/Tourney/2300?) a noticeable difference from a Shimano 8-speed (Claris/2400)?
> 
> What do you get, beyond an additional gear ratio, in practical terms?


Properly maintained, the simple answer to your question is: one more gear. 
That may not seem like much, but it can make a big difference depending on where you live (terrain) and the kind of riding you do, or want to do.

As you make your way up the component ladder... Tourney, Claris, Sora, Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, Dura-Ace... you will _generally_ find:



Lighter weight
More durable materials
"Better" performance (though again, set-up and maintenance are big factors)
Higher price

Someone much smarter than me coined the expression... When it comes to components you can have

Lighter / Stronger / Cheaper - (pick two).

At some point, you can make the argument for a law of diminishing returns. Does the weight saving from Ultegra to Dura-Ace, for example, really justify the cost? Maybe not.

Personally, I like the 105 as a middle-of-the-road balance between price and performance. But, I'm sure others here will have different opinions. Then the SRAM and Campy fans will weigh in...


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

I have Tiagra, and haven't really tried the others except for road tests. From what I have heard, there is a difference in quality between Tourney and Claris, and then incremental quality changes up to 105 (with the addition of the extra gear). Ultegra and DA have a little better quality, but are mostly lighter weight (which can cause durability issues for some components). 

I'd probably try to avoid the Shimano Tourney group, but anything above that should be good. Just avoid the thumb shifters on some of the older versions of the groups, because they are hard to use from the drops. 

I chose my bike with Tiagra, because it was $800 (which was only $50 more than the Sora group bike). But it was an extra $200 to go up to 105. 

GH


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

Now...I may be talking out of my rear here...who knows. I spent quite a bit of time with 5600 105, 5700 105 and 4600 Tiagra. I spent a small amount of time on a 6700 Ultegra.

I recently rode 5800 105...and well...I'll talk about that in a min.

The 5700/6700 are darn near identical in performance. Enough so that I didn't opt for buying new components to replace my 5700 when I had the chance. I've read time and time again that the difference between the 105 and Ultegra is normally finish and a small difference in weight. With that said, I actually feel the 5600 and 4600 were better groups. Not nearly as pretty, but the cables just worked better not being under the handlebar wrap. I've used my buddy's 4600 set quite a bit...and I set it up for him in the first place...its been pretty nice so far.

Now...the difference between 105 5700 and 5800? Yeah...no comparison. The 5800 is a giant leap forward...so much in fact that I have a new 5800 group sitting in my basement right now ready to be slapped on.

I know I'm not addressing your question directly...but to be 100% honest, if you plan on spending quite a bit of time on a road bike...I wouldn't go much further down the line than Tiagra. Ultimately, I fully believe the 105 is the bargain workhorse of the shimano group line. Great shifting, easy to adjust and so far...built like a rock...you just can't break the stuff.


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## bigjohnla (Mar 29, 2010)

The additional gears help you get a better peddling cadence to suit the various terrains and speeds you may desire to ride. Everybody has an optimum cadence or number of pedal strokes per minute that is not too hard and not too easy. A seven speed set up such as Tourney covers the entire range of gears from lowest to highest with 7 options. My wife's Hybrid has a Tourney 7 speed derailleur with a 14-34 cassette. That is a 20 tooth difference between smallest and largest. She is a causal rider who rides for relaxation and fitness. She isn't riding really fast or trying to ride in a pace line where she has to match the speed of others in her group. She can just pick one of the 7 gears and ride in comfort. My 10 speed 105 derailleur road bike has a 12-28 cassette. A 16 tooth difference b between smallest and largest with 10 options. Tighter spacing. This suits me better because I ride a bit faster and sometimes ride with a group in a pace line. The extra three gears keep the gaps between gears a little tighter and make it much easier to select a gear that allows me to pedal efficiently in a paceline. Many folks ride an 11-25 cassette which makes their gear spacing even tighter. I am 60 years old so I like the 28 tooth gear for climbing some hills. The same concept also applies to cranksets. The combinations can go on ad nausem. The bottom line is the more options you have the more likely you are to get the perfect combination for your riding style. Fewer is cheaper also.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

For me, that's really two questions.

I commuted a bike with a 2x6 drivetrain for a few years. I always used a 14-28 freewheel, but I changed chain rings about halfway through. With the right rings, I was quite happy with the gear ratios I had available. I'd sometimes wanted lower gears before. And I think that can apply to a lot of us - it doesn't take a huge range to have the right gears for any given kind of riding, but I think it demands that the person riding the bike understands what he wants and it may not tolerate a really broad range of riding that well.

With more gears, you can have tighter steps between gears, a broader total range, or both. That can be nice for riding with other people and using the bike for a couple different jobs.

You also asked about Shimano's spec levels. I remember it seeming important to me that I had 105 and lusting after Ultegra. I even have a couple Dura-Ace cogs for my track bike. I don't care as much lately.

I have some Sora shifters on one bike. They work fine and let me leave it 9-speed. I haven't owned Sora derailleurs, but friends' Sora stuff has worked fine. It's fairly no-frills, but if you see your bike more as a tool than a luxury good, meh. I also demoed 2300, the group Claris replaces, and was pleasantly surprised by how well it works. Would I buy a bike with it? Well, if a friend hadn't sold me his for less, I was about to.

Tourney, I don't feel so positive about. I feel like parts don't fit together great and there sometimes plastic in places where I think it detracts from the performance, and makes it harder to tune.

If you're buying a complete bike, the wheels can be a concern too, though a lot of expensive bikes have garbage too lately.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SpikedLemon said:


> Considering that I'm looking at a budget bike: I'm trying to understand the value of the derailleurs. There seems to be much talk of better components leading to a better ride but I find it hard to understand what I'm missing here on this specific, much talked about, item.
> 
> Is having a Shimano 7-speed (A070/Tourney/2300?) a noticeable difference from a Shimano 8-speed (Claris/2400)?
> 
> What do you get, beyond an additional gear ratio, in practical terms?


Aren't those derailleurs on beginner level bikes only? Don't see any 7 or 8 speed road bikes being marketed anymore. The standard is 10 or 11 now. The 7-8 speed derailleurs aren't designed to work the wider 10 speed gearing. They've been relegated to kids' bikes and entry level hybrids. 

So methinks we're talking a bit about apples and oranges. What bikes carry those derailleurs?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Don't see any 7 or 8 speed road bikes being marketed anymore.



A number of Claris 8-speed road bikes are being marketed now. One example: 2015 Raleigh Grand Sport. Steel, Claris, room for 28 mm tires with fenders, about $850. Bikes Direct peddles a 2015 7-speed Tourney STI bike, can't remember the name. People coming into the sport are beginning to understand that 10 or 11 "speeds" isn't necessarily what they want or need.


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## romrah (Mar 19, 2015)

I have Motobecane Mirage SLX as a starter with Claris 2400, 8 Speed 11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32T, triple crank 50/39/30T setup and road that for a few thousand miles. I would say Claris is not bad and has it place in the market to get someone started riding. Just like anything your setup should somewhat match what your plan on doing. This setup was great for me on semi flat road with a little hilly climbing mixed in NE Ohio not Colorado climbing. 

Though, I quickly realized I was really only using like maybe 6 gears three each on 50/30 which lead me to move to a Felt with 105 double and more of a ten speed setup that lets me climb these little hills 2x faster than than the Moto because of gearing. So I would say look into gearing for the riding you'll be doing like others here have said. 

So if budget dictates 2400 or A070 I would say 2400 and 8 speed if that and the 7 speed are the same cost. Chances are when you upgrade or sell the old bike people will know Claris versus generic A070 anyway and it might fetch you an extra 20 dollars. . Over all performance will be minimal and depend on how the bike is setup Online vs Local store.


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

I will say that I set up a friend's bike that came with 2300 components (2013 Allez Compact)...I was not impressed in the slightest.

No matter how much I messed with it, it just wasn't a great groupset. Yes, it shifted, no, it never failed to do it's job...but the action was rough as sandpaper, the shifters suck (those horrible "thumb buttons...ugg) and not a single thing about it was smooth in the slightest (save the crank).

After spending time on the thing while doing adjustments, it really made my thankful for my 105 setup...the difference was huge. Especially with the rear shifting which shifting would drag a bit no matter how much I messed with it.

*edit*
What got me was that it was a $700 bike...while I know that in the cycling world, $700 isn't a big deal, to a vast majority of people, it is. That $700 got him a clunky, half-ass kit that was rough and disappointing to ride. As a package, it just wan't a good bike. I know it's $500 more, but my other friends $1200 Allez elite with a Tiagra group is a FAR better bike and much closer in ride quality to my Tarmac.

In the end, my friend rode it for 1 year, sold it at a loss and bought a Felt. To this day he'll admit he should have listened to me (I warned him against it).

Concerning my buddy that bought his Tiagra Allez last year...he and his friend were shopping at the same time, both were looking at Trek 1.2 bikes (9spd Sora). I warned my friend against it, he listened and got a bike with 4600 Tiagra on it. His buddy went with the Sora...and now is wanting a different bike. Riding with the two, the Tiagra just performs better and is easier to work with.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

When Shimano went to an 8 speed system the spacing in the rear triangle went from 126mm to 130mm. (basically the distance between the rear dropouts) The modern road bike spacing with caliper brakes is 130mm. To me the 8 speed system is a truly budget system. It works very well and the maintenance costs for replacement parts is very friendly. My daughter is on a bike camping trip at this very minute and she rides a Bianchi steel bike with a compact crankset (50/34 gears) and an 8 speed cassette. She uses down tube indexed shifting which is also a very functional budget system.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

BikeLayne said:


> To me the 8 speed system is a truly budget system. It works very well and the maintenance costs for replacement parts is very friendly


Agree 100%. The 8-speed setup is a good one, and Claris is a well-designed group that, in my view, actually works better (and certainly looks better) than Sora.


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## SpikedLemon (May 15, 2015)

Typetwelve said:


> What got me was that it was a $700 bike...while I know that in the cycling world, $700 isn't a big deal, to a vast majority of people, it is. That $700 got him a clunky, half-ass kit that was rough and disappointing to ride. As a package, it just wan't a good bike. I know it's $500 more, but my other friends $1200 Allez elite with a Tiagra group is a FAR better bike and much closer in ride quality to my Tarmac.


You're very much right. Breaking into it: the prices for road bikes are quite a jump from the average big-box bike to which I'm accustomed to looking at. I'm struggling with the price delta for kit which, as far as my untrained eyes can discern, is down to derailleurs . I've found two such examples with a $200 delta between A070/Tourney and Claris - but then other bikes, at the same price point as the Claris example with an A070 setup. I'm going to spend a little time, when I have it, with the LBS to understand the rest of the kit differences.

My current, cheap, bike has a Tourney setup (mountain bike) with trigger shifters (3x7). Even towing my daughter in a trailer: I rarely use the full gamut of gears. I would classify it has never shifting nicely when on the lowest cog on the front but I have it adjusted to shift fine for the rest. I considered it par for the price I paid and it's not bothered me much. It would, however, bother me a lot if it were a much higher pricepoint.

Perhaps, on the other hand, it's like acquiring a taste for Scotch. Being happy with Johnny Walker Red is still being happy - no sense ruining it by developing a test for Johnny Walker Blue and being, now, unhappy with Red.


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## Typetwelve (Jul 1, 2012)

SpikedLemon said:


> You're very much right. Breaking into it: the prices for road bikes are quite a jump from the average big-box bike to which I'm accustomed to looking at. I'm struggling with the price delta for kit which, as far as my untrained eyes can discern, is down to derailleurs . I've found two such examples with a $200 delta between A070/Tourney and Claris - but then other bikes, at the same price point as the Claris example with an A070 setup. I'm going to spend a little time, when I have it, with the LBS to understand the rest of the kit differences.
> 
> My current, cheap, bike has a Tourney setup (mountain bike) with trigger shifters (3x7). Even towing my daughter in a trailer: I rarely use the full gamut of gears. I would classify it has never shifting nicely when on the lowest cog on the front but I have it adjusted to shift fine for the rest. I considered it par for the price I paid and it's not bothered me much. It would, however, bother me a lot if it were a much higher pricepoint.
> 
> Perhaps, on the other hand, it's like acquiring a taste for Scotch. Being happy with Johnny Walker Red is still being happy - no sense ruining it by developing a test for Johnny Walker Blue and being, now, unhappy with Red.


(Bourbon guy here...I'm currently a Four Roses fan...)

Spending time around a good amount of riders and being the "mechanic" of the group at times...I've got to mess with quite a bit of stuff.

There are definitely cut lines in groups (aka diminishing returns and/or big performance jumps). Often, the upper level bikes come with better equipment outside of just the drive line...better wheels, better saddles, etc.

Concerning that $1200 Tarmac...the saddle, wheels, and tires were crap. I sold him my take off Fulcrums and a Specialized Romin right off the bat, he purchased a set of Conti GP 4000 tires. Sad, really figuring he dropped $1200 on a bike.

I'm rambling.

I guess my point is, if you are looking to get into endurance cycling, you'll need to understand one thing. If something is annoying on a 30 min ride, wait until you've put up with it for hours on end...you will loath it.

A crappy saddle, junky wheels, lousy brakes, junk shifting...all will drive you mad when you're on mile 62 or a 75 mile trek.

I do not personally know a single endurance road cyclist that bought a base line bike and stuck with it...all of them landed up hating it.

It's the same with anything...I started out with cheap riding shorts...figured out real quick that shorts (bibs, for me) can make or break a ride. Now...you won't find me dropping $300 on a pair of Assos bibs...but the bargain bin is no place to shop either.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

Fredrico said:


> Aren't those derailleurs on beginner level bikes only? Don't see any 7 or 8 speed road bikes being marketed anymore. The standard is 10 or 11 now. The 7-8 speed derailleurs aren't designed to work the wider 10 speed gearing. They've been relegated to kids' bikes and entry level hybrids.
> 
> So methinks we're talking a bit about apples and oranges. What bikes carry those derailleurs?


Claris systems (8-speed) and above have the same spacing as the 10-11 speed bikes. There is a difference in the rear wheel for the 11-speed wheels. For example, in the Fuji Sportif bikes, the same frames carry Claris through 105. 

Also, Claris was upgraded in 2014 (from 2300 to 2400), so the 2014 and above Claris systems may show a marked improvement from the 2013. 

Most people say that there is a big difference between Tourney -> Claris, and then incremental improvemnts from Claris << Sora << Tiagra << 105, and then up to Ultegra and Dura-Ace, the big improvement is in weight. 

It'd probably be best to look for Claris equipped bikes, and then see what the price break is between Claris, Sora, Tiagra, and 105. And see which level fits your budget best.

GH


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

wim said:


> Agree 100%. The 8-speed setup is a good one, and Claris is a well-designed group that, in my view, actually works better (and certainly looks better) than Sora.


Are you thinking older or newer Sora? I feel like the Sora shifters I bought a year or so ago are a big step up from previous years. I don't know the rest of the current group that well, but it looks like they gave it some revisions all 'round, to slot it between where they've positioned Claris and where Tiagra has gone lately.

OP, what do you want from a new bike? You can (and I have) pay as little as $100 for a functional road bike, and the sky's the limit. I haven't broken a MSRP of $2000 on one yet, though my mountain bike would have retailed for more. I think both ends of the market and most of the points in between have something to be said for them and can be the right choice. It comes down to what you want to do with your bike and what you're comfortable spending.

I will say, I really like integrated shifters on drop bar bikes.


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## SpikedLemon (May 15, 2015)

Looking for a casual use bike. I called around to a few LBS and found what they had and have access to. 

Long story short: one LBS had access to some left over Cannondale bikes and I've got a Synapse Sora on the way for less than a Claris or Tourney outfitted new bike with lower kit.


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## Winn (Feb 15, 2013)

Nothing wrong with Sora at all. I actually don't mind the look of it either. I have it on a bike and it's mixed with Dura Ace bar end shifters and Tiagra hubs. It shifts nice and crisp and the 9 speed is plenty. You won't be disappointed with your pick.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

Winn said:


> Nothing wrong with Sora at all. I actually don't mind the look of it either.


My Sora still functions well after dumping the right shifter pretty hard into a pile of sandy mtb trail… Its ugly as sin now, but Shimano didn't design it with all of my added "modifications." It did take about two cans of high pressure finish line to blow all of the sand out. 

The only reason I would move the cross bike to 10 or 11 spd is to keep up with the other wheels in the garage - for interchangeability, not because of any performance improvements.


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