# Vittoria Cross Evo XG = poor traction, is it just me?



## haikalah (Oct 5, 2004)

I'm in my second season. Last year I raced with Panaracer Cinder X Clinchers (block pattern). They seemed fine, but you guys all convinced me that tubulars are the way to go.

This year I've raced on Vittoria Cross Evo XGs (220 tpi). I run 25/30 psi and they seem to roll very well, don't flat, and have worked ok in dry grass conditions. Today the course had some off camber turns with very dry soft dirt. The Vittorias were incredibly sketchy. I thought it was just the conditions, but when I used the Panaracer Cinder X tires for the second race, it was night and day. It felt as if the rubber in the Panaracers gripped, while the tread of the Vittorias was slippery. I rode through the turns faster and never had the wheel slide.

Is it just me? Do I just need to buy some Griffos?


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## Albino (Mar 24, 2007)

Go back to the panaracer on the front. I run tufo's and have the same issue. If the course is fast and doesn't require cornering, I'll run Tufo front and back. Otherwise I run the Panaracer cinder on the front. Great tire, no reason not to use it. Oh, and I just swap front wheels when I need the cinder, so yeah they are mismatched, but who cares?


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

There are definitely some more aggressive treads to be found on clinchers, but FWIW it took me a season to really get comfortable on tubulars (Grifos, older XGs and Tufo Elite LPS).

I'm not sure if it was a matter of evolving my style or simply becoming used to the way they feel, but I raced on Tufos in the mud today and they felt awesome. We'll see what happens if we get deep snow, because that was my nemesis last season.

Also, with fewer worries about pinch flats and better bump absorbtion, I find that I can cut more efficient turns -- wider arc, less breaking and less reliance on the tread.


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## the pope (Mar 28, 2004)

Vittoria Cross Evo XG = poor traction. You are correct. Probably a decent grass tire but dangerous on dry dirt turns in my experience.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

the pope said:


> Vittoria Cross Evo XG = poor traction. You are correct. Probably a decent grass tire but dangerous on dry dirt turns in my experience.


Which begs the question why does everyone use that sucky arrow pattern with very few side knobs? The only tubular tread that I would consider using for a front tire is the Dugast Rhino but I ain't dropping that kind of coin. I've heard people rave about custom Michelin Mud treads on Dugast casings...how hard would it be copy the Mud?


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## roseyscot (Jan 30, 2005)

i just used fango tubulars this weekend for the first time after using tufo flexus for 2 seasons. holy cow, those fangos are so much better for cornering! consider a pair of fangos.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> Which begs the question why does everyone use that sucky arrow pattern with very few side knobs?


And how are so many people so fast on it?


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## welcomdmat (Jan 1, 1970)

One other thing that I have found with the Vittorias (I am running the 290 tpi, 32mm this year) is that the casing is small. I don't think that the 32mm Vittoria is as large around as a 30mm Griffo. The Challange stands considerably taller giving a softer ride and a large contact patch. A 32mm Griffo is alot bigger than the 32mm Vittoria. This smaller casing requires a bit more pressure and the contact patch reduces grip.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> And how are so many people so fast on it?


Probably because the advantage of tubulars outweighed the sucky tread pattern. Look around, Dugast now has the Rhino which has more tread and Challenge has added more side knobs to that old Clement Grifo pattern. Tufo now has the Flexus pattern. Obviously they've added more tread for a reason.....it's better.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> Probably because the advantage of tubulars outweighed the sucky tread pattern. Look around, Dugast now has the Rhino which has more tread and Challenge has added more side knobs to that old Clement Grifo pattern. Tufo now has the Flexus pattern. Obviously they've added more tread for a reason.....it's better.


And why sell people 1 tread when you can sell them 3? Pretty soon, only a fool will show up to a race without 3 wheelsets. 6 if they are "serious".


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

The Vittoria Cross Evo XGs are super sketchy. Get a pair of Racing Raplhs and you will wonder why anyone rides anything else.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Wimps.

Personally, I prefer the conti competition 19mm tubies for cross. They cut right through the sand.

Plus, they pick up speed quickly when I'm hammering on my 56-11 singlespeed gear.


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## MaestroXC (Sep 15, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> I've heard people rave about custom Michelin Mud treads on Dugast casings...how hard would it be copy the Mud?


You have to buy a Mud (or pay for Dugast to buy one, I guess), they cut the tread off, and glue it to a Dugast casing. 

Call and ask for an estimate.


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## c-record (Mar 18, 2004)

*Ahh!*



roseyscot said:


> i just used fango tubulars this weekend for the first time after using tufo flexus for 2 seasons. holy cow, those fangos are so much better for cornering! consider a pair of fangos.


Don't tell me that when I'm running Tufos.  

Seriously the tire to get?


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

no - don't get the fangos...

they are terrible, horrible, aweful tires...

and I will keep saying that until there is enough available for me to get my skinny fingers on, then once i have them i will start echoing the chorus of converts who have been amazed at how kick ass they are in all conditions. Faster in dry and what not than the venerable grifo tread. And pretty darn good in the mud reportedly (but then maybe not seeing as Page was carrying his bike not riding it) :thumbsup: 

i've heard nothing but good reports about the Fangos... but, then again everyone is still on the new tread high. if they are still the bomb next year then well they be the real deal. Last year it was all about the Rhyno... and then the low profile Rhyno... now the buzz is fango


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

gewilli said:


> Last year it was all about the Rhyno... and then the low profile Rhyno... now the buzz is fango


I thought last year was the year of the Grifo(?) And before that the Flexus. And the Flexus rendered all other Tufos hopelessly obsolete though I remember when respectable riders ran them. Obviously the Rhyno was the best tire ever for 15 min. at some point, but FMB held the spot with some tread or another in recent memory. Actually, until the surprise appearance of the Fango, this was shaping up to be the year of the file tread. 

I just buy whatever is cheap and available.


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

the file tread does seem to be the tire of the year...

the fangos though are a very close second...

but it breaks down more like this i think...

for those with more than one wheel set the tire of the year is definately a File tread. Those who only have one set it seems to be the Fango (this year)....

based on my observations only


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## VeldrijdenAddict (Apr 29, 2008)

Isn't the Evo XG essentially just a copy of the oringinal Dugast tread or the Grifo. Geez, just 2 or 3 years ago, these were the tires you just had to have... Now it is a diamond tread with only some knobs on the side, or the Fango, or the Rhino. 

They're better, 'cause they're newer...


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

I LIKE the feel of my Tufos with the diamond treads. Yeah, they tend to slide around a bit in the corners, but its a very predictable slide. 

Now all I hafta do it race em again!

Missed ALL the races here in DC this fall 'cause I'm workin weekend nights. Its tough to get to races 45-60min away when yer brain damaged from bein up all nite. :nod

M


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## welcomdmat (Jan 1, 1970)

I don't think the XG tread patterin is the issue but instead the size of the casing. So far as tread design, I think that Hutchinson has some good modern designs in their tubless setups and the new Conti World Cup tires look like they are going to be a pretty nice design as well. Still, there is no one tire for all conditions and the best tire setup is more than one option.


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## c-record (Mar 18, 2004)

*You can't come in here all logical and making sense*



welcomdmat said:


> I don't think the XG tread patterin is the issue but instead the size of the casing. So far as tread design, I think that Hutchinson has some good modern designs in their tubless setups and the new Conti World Cup tires look like they are going to be a pretty nice design as well. Still, there is no one tire for all conditions and the best tire setup is more than one option.


Your comment smacks of well-though out logic and reason. Cross is a passion. Where's the emotion!? This just works because I say so! It's the internet man!


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## mr_pitiful (Aug 21, 2008)

I've never raced anything but the S-works Houff'ies....rain or shine. Does that smell of newbie? 

I have a pair of Mud 2's someone gifted me with considerable tread left. Should I use 'em next week if it's muddy or stick with the Specialized?


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## c-record (Mar 18, 2004)

*Michelin*



mr_pitiful said:


> I've never raced anything but the S-works Houff'ies....rain or shine. Does that smell of newbie?
> 
> I have a pair of Mud 2's someone gifted me with considerable tread left. Should I use 'em next week if it's muddy or stick with the Specialized?


A team mate had the Specialized tires and never went back after he swapped them out. They've become the thrasher training tires. 

The Michelins rock about everywhere. Go Mud 2s.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

welcomdmat said:


> I don't think the XG tread patterin is the issue but instead the size of the casing.


And maybe the rubber compound. It definitely feels less grippy to the touch than other tires...but less grippy to the ground? Maybe some placebo effect there.


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## haikalah (Oct 5, 2004)

Well it may be too soon give up on the Vittorias. Today I did a number of rolldown tests on a grass hill. Mostly dry grass but a wee bit of hard dirt. Did enough runs to be confident the numbers were repeatable. Clincher Cinder-X (32/40 psi) were about 28.5 seconds and Vittorias were about 27.0 seconds (25/30 psi). I reckon if it is a grass course, I'll go with the Vittorias, but if there are many sketchy, soft dirt turns, I'll put a Cinder-X in front.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

haikalah said:


> Well it may be too soon give up on the Vittorias. Today I did a number of rolldown tests on a grass hill. Mostly dry grass but a wee bit of hard dirt. Did enough runs to be confident the numbers were repeatable. Clincher Cinder-X (32/40 psi) were about 28.5 seconds and Vittorias were about 27.0 seconds (25/30 psi). I reckon if it is a grass course, I'll go with the Vittorias, but if there are many sketchy, soft dirt turns, I'll put a Cinder-X in front.


That is awesome. Not the results as much as the methodology. If you knew the elevation change, could you convert it to watts? :idea:


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## haikalah (Oct 5, 2004)

What I've discovered today (and one earlier test) is that a timed rolldown of about 30-40 seconds produces repeatable numbers. Last time I discovered that the Cinder-X tires are 3-4 seconds faster on a dirt trail when you reduce pressure from 40/45 to 35/40. That is in line with that powermeter study that has been posted here, but it is interesting to be able to see it yourself.

Of course, one response to this is to say, duh, most folks here have been saying that low pressure tubulars are faster.

Don't know about converting to watts, gotta think about that one.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

haikalah said:


> Of course, one response to this is to say, duh, most folks here have been saying that low pressure tubulars are faster.


It's one thing to take it on faith, another thing to actually prove and quantify it. The fact that your method requires no gear fancier than a stopwatch is cool.


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## DPCX (Nov 11, 2004)

MaestroXC said:


> You have to buy a Mud (or pay for Dugast to buy one, I guess), they cut the tread off, and glue it to a Dugast casing.
> 
> Call and ask for an estimate.


I ran Rhino's on the A bike last year & Dugast Mud on the front of the B bike for muddy races. From my experience the Rhino is much better in these conditions. The Dugast mud is a little better than a Grifo (new tread pattern) though but not much. 

Anthony (Giovanni), you rode my Dugast/Mud for a couple laps on sunday when you flatted, did you notice anything on the off camber grass/mud?

DP


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## pbayne (Sep 2, 2008)

*I actually like the Vittoria's*

I think the Vittoria's are great. I like them in sand, wet grass, off camber, mud, water, etc. I find that they are predictable at high speed sandy, loose turns. They definitely break loose and slide at first, but they hook up predictably after that. It takes some practice to get used to, but its fun and you can fly.

Just the other day we were doing high speed turns on a grassy, wet, off camber turn. I felt fine on the Vittoria's.

Lots of guys on my team ride them, tubular and clincher. I think with cross tires the important thing is to set the pressure based on the course, your weight, and your riding style.

My 2 cents.


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## haikalah (Oct 5, 2004)

thanks for the feedback. sounds like I may just need to learn to ride.


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## jimmythegimp (Mar 22, 2005)

I think I recognize your name from the Tuscaloosa results. Am I right, and have you ridden the course for tomorrow? Any idea on conditions, besides dry as a bone? The Bamacross blog says something about a creek crossing.


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## bchuang (Sep 28, 2006)

I got a preview of the course. Some loose gravel, mud crossing a drainage area, and maybe a run through a big pile of sand.


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## jimmythegimp (Mar 22, 2005)

Thanks.


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