# andrew tilin, 46 yr old, cat 4 doper, san fran, 4/1/11



## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

http://www.cxmagazine.com/tough-wee...ons-peter-cannell-alberto-blanco-andrew-tilin

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/04/andrew_tilin_steroids_the_doper_next_door.php


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

This story is just plain douche-tastic on so many levels. The only thing that would have made it worse is if he had actually gotten any significant results. A lifetime ban is too short.


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

*No testing for amateur racers?*

amazing thing is that this is at cat4, imagine the number of cat5/4 who are doping their way up the ranks who race and rise category-wise - undetected, since for Tilin it was an actual admission from that gave him the suspension, not a urine test.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Like I mentioned in another thread. Doping at the amateur level with Testosterone and HGH is probably worse than it is in the pro ranks.

What they need is a massive sting operation where they try to bag as many amateur riders as possible before the word gets out.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It must vary by region, but I highly doubt anyone in the lower cats are doping where I race. 

Regardless, I think it would be hard to catch them without making everyone submit a urine sample. Given the budget of smaller local racing scenes, you'd basically get rid of prize money across the board, unless you really hike up the entry fees.

My guess is that random testing wouldn't be particuarly beneficial. Do you test the winners? That's all fine and dandy, but most of them will inevitably be from good riding/training and not doping.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

This will help to sell books won't it?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

A massive sting to catch amateurs? Why would anyone spend any money or time chasing amateurs?


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*not surprised*

This is where we all say..........not suprising, golly, I bet all the pros dope


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

mohair_chair said:


> A massive sting to catch amateurs? Why would anyone spend any money or time chasing amateurs?


When you get down to it why test the pros? Aside from the "advertisement on wheels" riders provide they really aren't all that important to me or to society in general. 

Why should another pro care if someone is doping, if he already has plenty of cash in the bank. I'm gonna guess it's because honest competition is what really matters and when you have a good chunk of the riders both amateur and pro cheating then the sport eventually becomes meaningless.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

The reason this douch bag got caught is that he wrote a book about his doping. 

The real crappy thing about him is he wanted to write a book about amature doping but when he could not find an amature that was doping (that would admit it to him) he decided to dope himself so he could write a book about that. So he basicly fabricated a story that makes it looks like there is lots of amature doping so he could profit off it. 

The guy got an advance to write this piece of crap (quite large I heard) and unfortunatly will likely make money off book sales (tho if there is any justice no one will buy the book). What he really deserves is a kick in the sack.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

heathb said:


> When you get down to it why test the pros? Aside from the "advertisement on wheels" riders provide they really aren't all that important to me or to society in general.


Because pros are pros. 

Nobody cares what amateurs do, because nobody cares who they are and what they do in obscure races that are contested largely for fun and where there is little to no prize money.


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

You're 100% kidding yourself if you think other CAT IVs aren't doping. I have ridden with more than a few guys who get from a V to a II in 2 years and they all went and trained by power, counted their calories, rode the rides their coaches said, spent mega money on equipment and purchased altitude tents. These are married men, mind you, who sleep in tents - their wives laugh at them. Then when they get to a II and see how hard it is they all quit - sell their **** at a loss and gain a bunch of weight. I know 3 guys who did all of what I said prior - all 3 admitted they looked into HGH online and one asked his father inlaw, who was a vet, to get him HGH. If you do all that, you think everyone is a clear as the morning snow - I think not.


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## petepeterson (Jan 4, 2011)

ronderman said:


> You're 100% kidding yourself if you think other CAT IVs aren't doping. I have ridden with more than a few guys who get from a V to a II in 2 years and they all went and trained by power, counted their calories, rode the rides their coaches said, spent mega money on equipment and purchased altitude tents. These are married men, mind you, who sleep in tents - their wives laugh at them. Then when they get to a II and see how hard it is they all quit - sell their **** at a loss and gain a bunch of weight. I know 3 guys who did all of what I said prior - all 3 admitted they looked into HGH online and one asked his father inlaw, who was a vet, to get him HGH. If you do all that, you think everyone is a clear as the morning snow - I think not.


cat 5's in altitude tents!!!! Only in america... LOL


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## ronderman (May 17, 2010)

petepeterson said:


> cat 5's in altitude tents!!!! Only in america... LOL


One guy - Trek with ultegra - then the dude went all out, red, carbon wheels, power tap and altitude tent. Then he let people know about the tent, cause he's a sales guy, everything he has is the best, and 3 other dudes bought tents and then switched to his coach. One guy is a master who ALWAYS gets dropped, it's comical. :blush2:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Some of you guys must live in really rich areas. I just can't see this stuff happening locally. Either that, or the type who have more $ than common sense simply don't have an interest in cycling.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

Bottom line was this guy wasn't tested (as was already pointed out). He is (claims to be) a journalist, trying to make a buck. Got busted because of his book, which was probably his intent for free publicity. I'm gonna show my appreciation by not buying the book. What he wants is more people to say "What! Cat IV dopers!!!, OMG".

btw, I only know one cat IV racer with an altitude tent.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Some of you guys must live in really rich areas. I just can't see this stuff happening locally. Either that, or the type who have more $ than common sense simply don't have an interest in cycling.


Have you been to a local weight lifting gym?


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

I looked into making an altitude chamber after seeing the one floyd landis uses lol. I'm a barely competitive cat 5! 
To me half the fun of racing is the experimentation. New techniques and stuff. If it was legal I'd be doped to the gills. Not because I think it would bring wins, but I'd love to see just how much this stuff really works.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

What is it about Outside magazine?

Anyone remember this one from 2003?
_I'd read reams about cheating as an issue, but I'd never read anything describing what it felt like to do it. ... So I wondered, Do performance drugs make you just 1 percent faster and stronger? Or 10 percent? Are the enhancements so subtle that only elite athletes gain an edge, or are they powerful enough that an everyday wannabe like me would notice a dramatic change? 

Though I knew I would be courting health risks, I decided there was only one way to find out: try it myself, and see what it did. _ _

My plan was simple. I would train as I always do—about 15 to 20 hours a week—while taking various supplements under Dr. Jones's supervision. ... In eight months, I intended to ride the 1,225-kilometer (761-mile) Paris-Brest-Paris bicycle race... 

The PBP was a quirky event, a ride rather than a real race, with no prizes, no ranking of finishers, no doping controls. So if the drugs helped me, I wouldn't be knocking anybody else down in the standings._​


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## mhk (Feb 26, 2006)

Baseball fans and baseballers themselves called Jose Canseco a douchebag (and he arguably is); people generally agree that Landis conducted himself in a douche-like capacity; this guy Tillin is pretty universally disdained as an asshat. 

I suggest that betwixt them lies a common denominator: Because nothing is left to lose, a truth is loosed that happens to piss off a lot of people for myriad reasons. 

I, for one, am glad to have the stone turned over, because, with truth, the world is a more beautiful place.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

bas said:


> Have you been to a local weight lifting gym?


I left one gym because of the juiceheads and their horrible behaviour. It was a really nice gym in a condo complex but the juicers took over and ruined the atmosphere. I don't know why the owners allowed it, the freaks must have chased an awful lot of customers away besides me. There seems to be two kinds of gyms, ones that tolerate obnoxious, loudmouth roid heads, and those that don't. 
Few weeks ago I was at a minor hockey game with my buddy watching his 14-year old. A guy approached us, he told my buddy that if he wanted his boy to be successful he'd have to start "using", so he wouldn't be pushed around by bigger kids. And that he had some for sale if my buddy wanted them. He even gave his phone number, in case my bud changed his mind.
I'd say drug use is pretty much epidemic if 14 year olds are being pushed to use them.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Cheaters suck. Simple, no?


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Simple question - did he win? If not, double loser!


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*question*

The thread titale, 4/1/2011, not April Fools is it?


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

*Problem starts at kindergarten*

Doping in cat5/4 is like having drugs being peddled to kindergarteners. Problem is way deeper and earlier than what people would admit.

You ask yourself, if you're starting out and are a level-headed honest individual are you even going to try the sport now when even at cat 5, you encounter dopers. You're setting yourself up for a very miserable, risky and expensive sport: not just the lightest carbon frame, wheel-set, groupo, but the most efficient, expensive drugs.

What a sham this sport has become!!


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

izzyfly said:


> Doping in cat5/4 is like having drugs being peddled to kindergarteners. Problem is way deeper and earlier than what people would admit.
> 
> You ask yourself, if you're starting out and are a level-headed honest individual are you even going to try the sport now when even at cat 5, you encounter dopers. You're setting yourself up for a very miserable, risky and expensive sport: not just the lightest carbon frame, wheel-set, groupo, but the most efficient, expensive drugs.
> 
> What a sham this sport has become!!


The problem started when people with money started racing. I've never had any mistrust for the ragtag bunch that I raced against for years, but when these guys with money started rolling up to my races I started noticing the game changing and now it's all but ruined.

These people are extremely driven in their chosen profession, there's no way they're going to be unsuccessful at cycling even if they're only a Cat 5/4/3 or Masters....they'll do whatever it takes.


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I left one gym because of the juiceheads and their horrible behaviour. It was a really nice gym in a condo complex but the juicers took over and ruined the atmosphere. I don't know why the owners allowed it, the freaks must have chased an awful lot of customers away besides me. There seems to be two kinds of gyms, ones that tolerate obnoxious, loudmouth roid heads, and those that don't.
> *Few weeks ago I was at a minor hockey game with my buddy watching his 14-year old. A guy approached us, he told my buddy that if he wanted his boy to be successful he'd have to start "using", so he wouldn't be pushed around by bigger kids. And that he had some for sale if my buddy wanted them. He even gave his phone number, in case my bud changed his mind.
> I'd say drug use is pretty much epidemic if 14 year olds are being pushed to use them*.



This is why I think that it is important to go after the pros for PED use. A message needs to be sent to the lower ranks that PEDs are not OK. A few years ago when my nephew entered high school in an affluent town in southern Connecticut, the parents of all the kids on sports teams were called to a meeting with the school authorities and were given a lecture about the dangers of PED use by aspiring athletes. My sister thought that the whole thing was overblown and unnecessary until the Q&A when some parents started arguing with the school authorities and justifying PED use. My nephew no longer plays on any of the organized sports teams. Would it be any surprise that the kids of the parents who were justifying PED use are still playing and doing well?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

MarkS said:


> My nephew no longer plays on any of the organized sports teams. Would it be any surprise that the kids of the parents who were justifying PED use are still playing and doing well?


That's because they are on a bike 6 hours a day, 9 days week, busting their @ss. What's you nephew on?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

most PED use isn't even related to competitive sports - its due to recreational body builders. The documentary bigger, stronger, faster is worth a look.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> most PED use isn't even related to competitive sports - its due to recreational body builders. The documentary bigger, stronger, faster is worth a look.


The sad thing about that documentary is that most of the people that were on PED looked like total crap, fat and flabby. These people didn't need steriods, they needed a good nutritionist and someone to pull the fork out of their mouths.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

How much faster does HGH or T make someone? I know there are many variables involved, but can anyone give us a general ball park answer here??


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

rydbyk said:


> How much faster does HGH or T make someone? I know there are many variables involved, but can anyone give us a general ball park answer here??


How steep is a hill?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

mhk said:


> I, for one, am glad to have the stone turned over, because, with truth, the world is a more beautiful place.



In this case exactly what rock do you think got turned over? This guy could not find anyone taht was acatually doping taht would admit it to him rather than do some real investgative work he simply started doping himself - its not even really a tell all (as it would have been had he been doping prior and been succesful because of it). He just started doping so he could write a book about doping and make the sport looks worse. 

Sure we can likely figure there are others out there doping but this book as far as I have heard does nothing to prove that. No truth is revealed No progess is made, just a jack ass trying to make a buck off trashing the sport.


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## Axe (Sep 21, 2004)

"Doping" is too broadly defined.

I am not even a racer, and I would not be surprised if I fail a doping test due to some drugs or supplements I take on rare occasions.

As far as testosterone or hgh, I see nothing wrong with using it, if you want to.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Axe said:


> "Doping" is too broadly defined.
> 
> I am not even a racer, and I would not be surprised if I fail a doping test due to some drugs or supplements I take on rare occasions.
> 
> As far as testosterone or hgh, I see nothing wrong with using it, if you want to.


Really? What utter BS.

I see a problem with you using it, because its cheating. 

So now we just raise the bar up and make those two things (which can damage your health BTW) ok. So now to be compedative you will need to get on drugs and really get a Dr thanks thats exactly what we need the idea that everything should become prohibative to enter. I know what you saying - I don't have to take them. True but see now me and the guy on that stuff are not on a level playing field anymore and thats not what this is suppose to be about.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

bas said:


> Have you been to a local weight lifting gym?


Not in years, although the only competition _those_ fellers do is with themselves in front of the mirror. The cromagnon brow and bad acne/backne are usually dead giveaways.


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

Wait! Do we know if maybe Tilin did a lot of good for a lot of people? Cuz that would make a difference, right?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I do*



Fredke said:


> What is it about Outside magazine?
> 
> Anyone remember this one from 2003?
> _I'd read reams about cheating as an issue, but I'd never read anything describing what it felt like to do it. ... So I wondered, Do performance drugs make you just 1 percent faster and stronger? Or 10 percent? Are the enhancements so subtle that only elite athletes gain an edge, or are they powerful enough that an everyday wannabe like me would notice a dramatic change?
> ...


that was a great article, well written


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Axe said:


> As far as testosterone or hgh, I see nothing wrong with using it, if you want to.


HGH is potent and has serious side effects, that can cripple or kill you.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> How much faster does HGH or T make someone? I know there are many variables involved, but can anyone give us a general ball park answer here??


One guy I know personally is 6' tall, about 180-190 pounds non juiced.
When he was using he was around 265 pounds with <5% bodyfat. He could bench over 500 no problem. The stuff, if used properly, is so powerful it's amazing. The funny thing is, if you don't know how to use it, it doesn't do anything for you.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Dr. Ferrari says EPO is worth a couple % in actual practice in pro cycling, HGH and T worthless. I think at least in this case he's being honest. There's a difference between feeling like you're going well and actually doing it. EPO basically does both, HGH and T really only the former in endurance sports.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

HGH and T would benefit stage race riders if they could get away with using them during the race. Both speed up recovery after hard workouts in the gym, and should do the same after a hard day in the saddle.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

We all saw what Landis did on stage 17 after he left his testosterone patch on too long. Did you see the aggression when he crossed the line, he still had energy to shove the reporters out of the way. Also remember during that stage when he got a bike change the way he went into a roid rage moment with his bike mechanic when he wasn't make his bike change fast enough, those words coming out of his mouth were not endorsed by the Amish I can assure you. 

Testosterone gives a man his vigor. Even women that I've talked to that have taken T say they love it as it really boosts their energy levels.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> that was a great article, well written


A compelling read, but I finished it very very skeptical about the benefits he claimed from the drugs. I suspected a hell of a lot of placebo effect.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Big-foot said:


> Wait! Do we know if maybe Tilin did a lot of good for a lot of people? Cuz that would make a difference, right?



How much does he charge for the wrist bands?


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## Axe (Sep 21, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Really? What utter BS.
> 
> I see a problem with you using it, because its cheating.


I could not care less about what you think.  



32and3cross said:


> True but see now me and the guy on that stuff are not on a level playing field anymore and thats not what this is suppose to be about.


There is no level playing field. We are not genetic clones of each other.



Cinelli 82220 said:


> HGH is potent and has serious side effects, that can cripple or kill you.


Eating hamburgers has serious side effects. Folks should decide for themselves what they want to consume.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

jlandry said:


> This will help to sell books won't it?


I'm a sucker for first-person accounts. I bought this book on my Kobo. Opinions on doping aside, it really is a good read. Very interesting and it makes you wonder... :idea:


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## Jetmugg (Sep 22, 2010)

Have you seen the TV commercials targeting men in their 30's and 40's suffering from fatigue, lack of sex drive, etc. They are now directly marketing testosterone to middle aged guys suffering from "Low T". How many guys who suffer from "Low T" and are being treated for this dreadful condition also race bicycles? It doesn't seem to be much of a stretch from being treated for Low T to being in a condition of High T.


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## nathanbal (Feb 23, 2009)

heathb said:


> We all saw what Landis did on stage 17 after he left his testosterone patch on too long. Did you see the aggression when he crossed the line, he still had energy to shove the reporters out of the way. Also remember during that stage when he got a bike change the way he went into a roid rage moment with his bike mechanic when he wasn't make his bike change fast enough, those words coming out of his mouth were not endorsed by the Amish I can assure you.
> 
> Testosterone gives a man his vigor. Even women that I've talked to that have taken T say they love it as it really boosts their energy levels.


I'm pretty sure he has confirmed that he received a blood transfusion tainted with artificial T rather than taking additional T... and it was the highly oxygenated blood that brought him back?


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

mohair_chair said:


> A massive sting to catch amateurs? Why would anyone spend any money or time chasing amateurs?


Err, 'cause maybe if they got the message that it isn't ok to dope your way to a pro contract, it might at least partially stick in their thick skull* that it isn't ok at any level.

* I was going to say 'fat head' but that's probably not appropriate, as they'll have a thin head from all the clenbuterol.**

** Come to think of it, thick skull probably isn't a good phrase for a cyclist either, given they've done so little impact sport, and starved themselves to bone density problems. :skep:


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Axe said:


> I could not care less about what you think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 There are a significant number of people who have Axe's attitude...that is why we have so many dopers racing bikes at all levels.

If you want to be assured you are starting with the same advantages as *everyone* in your race you should probably dope up to the max. Chances are good you will have to compete against people who have decided for themselves what they want to put in their bodies...

It is pretty widely accepted that doping up will give you a competitive edge. There are many many 'wanna be' winners who see nothing wrong with taking whatever measures they can afford, in order to win. It is a race, right? They spend $6k on a TT bike, another $6K on their road ride, have multiple sets of carbon wheels, hire coaches, go to training camps, etc etc etc...all to get an "edge" on the people they race against, so they have a better chance of winning. What's another $10 k to go to an 'aging clinic' and get PEDs from a doc...or fly to Europe, or spend an hour on the Net and find a mail order source?

For me, it's taken the "Race" out of racing. I'll still train and I still do some timed events and endurance ultras...but I won't dope, and chances are I've 'left something undone" rolling to the starting line of any race...something that at least a couple of the guy's right there +Have done+...so what's the point?

As long as there are people who see nothing wrong with doping and there is little chance of them being busted for cheating...well....


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*precisely*



Jetmugg said:


> Have you seen the TV commercials targeting men in their 30's and 40's suffering from fatigue, lack of sex drive, etc. They are now directly marketing testosterone to middle aged guys suffering from "Low T". How many guys who suffer from "Low T" and are being treated for this dreadful condition also race bicycles? It doesn't seem to be much of a stretch from being treated for Low T to being in a condition of High T.


and I imagine, like ****** or Levitra it is probably pretty easy to get a diagnosis to get you on the drug

average Americans not realizing they are on performance enhancers


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

atpjunkie said:


> and I imagine, like ****** or Levitra it is probably pretty easy to get a diagnosis to get you on the drug
> 
> average Americans not realizing they are on performance enhancers


Believe me, urologists will go out of their way to prescribe this stuff.

I told a GP I was uptight and he prescribed some Xanax, no questions asked.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

From what I've read in Tilin's book, T is right up my alley.

I don't race, so no problems there. I'm 40 y/old, 30 lbs overweight, have always had trouble with weight, always tired, unmotivated, and always need a kick in the a$$ to do anything.

If I were to need insulin for diabetes, I would take it.
T seems to be just what I need.


PS: Not trolling


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

jlandry said:


> From what I've read in Tilin's book, T is right up my alley.
> 
> I don't race, so no problems there. I'm 40 y/old, 30 lbs overweight, have always had trouble with weight, always tired, unmotivated, and always need a kick in the a$$ to do anything.
> 
> ...


 So, join the crowd. Go to your doctor and ask for a 'script for Testosterone, HGH and EPO..."for your problems" with weight, motivation and ambition. The doctor will be happy to prescribe for you....and then, when all that "kicks in" you will probably be motivated and fast enough to race, because you will be beating all your undoped buddies on group rides, etc.

Or maybe you ARE a doctor or have a doctor relative...simply self-medicate...I am pretty sure that may be happening around the Masters racing scene.

I have to say, if someone's quality of life can be improved by taking Testosterone or any other chemical that has been shown to work and is tested as semi-safe...they should feel free to get some and use it....but please, don't come racing, it is not fair to un-juiced racers..


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Axe said:


> I could not care less about what you think.  QUOTE]
> 
> Luckly I don't need you to care what I think. Its cheating and wrong as recognized by the governing body. IE don't matter if you think its A OK you do it your a cheater full stop no excuses or justifications.


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