# Frame Materials



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Most of the newest top end bikes are carbon fiber and the latest trends are for lighter and ever lighter bikes. This causes manufacturers to make lighter and lighter frames.

While carbon fiber has higher strength to weight ratio than most other materials it also has its own problems - the thread length of a carbon fiber is short. This means that as the frame resin embrittles with age the frames can fail catastrophically.

Exactly how much of a problem this seems to be is a question since Trek offers a lifetime limited warranty (they replace the frame only). I think that Specialized matches this but I haven't actually found it written anywhere. But Colnago who has more experience with the material than most other companies only offers a 3 year warranty and that only because it is the minimum by law in many states. They state, when asked, that they don't trust them beyond two years, Now I'm not sure I understand this since most of the Colnagos are constructed quite conservatively and not for minimum weights. Virtually all of the top end CF bikes are lighter than Colnago. And the Taiwanese versions (CLX etc.) pioneered the stress management techniques used in Aerospace industries. Is this only self protection? I don't know.

Titanium frames have roughly the same weight as CF plus they are extremely resilient as long as they are welded properly. It is always possible though rare, for the helium envelope that the welding is accomplished under to allow some oxygen in and cause titanium oxide to form in or around a weld. This is a brittle material and generally if you don't find a crack within a month you're safe forever. This is a long lived material.

Aluminum frames also CAN last forever but they began pressing the envelope of weight pretty rapidly so some frame cracks started appearing relatively early. And unlike titanium they can occur at any time over the life of the material. However, it must be noted that these failures are seldom catastrophic. Usually they will begin making odd noises and you will look and discover a broken tube while the others are fine.

Steel bike frame are another matter. By the time they started making very high quality steel tubing at Columbus, Reynolds and others, it was long after WW II and steel had become a science. There was no guesswork in the double and triple butted tubes and only the very occasional manufacturing errors caused these frames to break. What's more, although they give away a small weight penalty, the frame and fork are only a part of the weight of a bicycle so this penalty is relatively small.

At the moment that UCI has a weight restriction on bicycles of approximately 15 lbs and this isn't very far from the very top end steel bikes though even one ounce is now considered extreme on race tracks and in truth only those with a lot of climbing.

So what we're presently seeing in cycling is probably a very bad trend - lightest weight possible which is similar to the latest trend in components which are the largest number of speeds possible. This will cause little more than headaches for the sports/recreational rider. Though some trends are good (tubeless tires) most of the others are not, More speeds means narrower cogs and rings, higher ratio differences with 11-32 cogsets for hard Tour stages and derailleurs now so weak that picking up a rock or wire into your rear derailleur can end your ride. It makes you yearn for the old days of 8 speeds when you could have a gear for every purpose without having to shift two or three times every time you are changing terrain. So maybe manufacturers should be building bikes more for the actual use of a rider rather than getting them to play at racing rather than buying a bike that actually serves a purpose. This is fine for kids but I have ridden in a lot of areas and what I'm seeing is that riders tend to be in the mid 30's and later. Racers are very few but people trying to keep up with them are far too plentiful. And here I am now in the higher age group and most of my riding buddies are dead or having extreme health problems.

I have a good day when I do a metric and average 15 mph. And yet when I did a very large metric with about 2,000 riders in it when I crossed the line I was told that I was the 182nd finisher. And several hundred of the Century riders started an hour before me! Does this sound like people should be worried about maximum performance and only using the lightest and most expensive bikes made? You could get a high quality high quantity manufactured bike made of steel with top line components on it for $2,500 or less vs a $13,000 carbon fiber wonder. If you are in your mid to late 30's that $10,000 in your retirement account can made a huge difference to having a longer and more comfortable retirement on your original bike!


----------



## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

mispost


----------



## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

I have a 13 year old carbon cyclocross bike I thrash every winter. No failures, a 23 year old To bike no issues and a 32 year old steel bike no issues.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

mackgoo said:


> I have a 13 year old carbon cyclocross bike I thrash every winter. No failures, a 23 year old To bike no issues and a 32 year old steel bike no issues.


Since the actual rates of failures is very low I don't think that your examples are anything we couldn't expect


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

I don't think the OP knows as much as he thinks he does about carbon bikes in particular and carbon fiber construction in general. I'm actually certain he doesn't.


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Titanium is welded in an Argon environment, not helium.

I tend to agree with cxwrench. I'm not sure what the OP's point was.


----------



## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Since the actual rates of failures is very low I don't think that your examples are anything we couldn't expect


So what is your point? By the way it's a 23 year old Ti bike.


----------



## smokva (Jul 21, 2004)

Peter P. said:


> I tend to agree with cxwrench. I'm not sure what the OP's point was.


I think it was...enjoy riding and not buying. 
Prices got ridiculous high last few years and they are basically selling us nothing that we need.


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

These "they're selling bikes we don't need" threads are hilarious. Nothing new about them, complainers been going on for years. 
All you NEED are two wheels and pedals. Hell, they use to do the tour DE France on single speeds. So you don't need all those fancy gears lol. 
There's bikes at all price levels. You can buy a decent bike for $1000, better than a bike from 10 years ago. 

Buy what you want. Ride it and have fun.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> Though some trends are good (tubeless tires)......................


Seriously, you must be joking. Sorry, but I am not convinced that the advantages of tubeless outweigh the headaches. 



Tom Kunich said:


> You could get a high quality high quantity manufactured bike made of steel with top line components on it for $2,500 or less vs a $13,000 carbon fiber wonder. If you are in your mid to late 30's that $10,000 in your retirement account can made a huge difference to having a longer and more comfortable retirement on your original bike!


I'm not really sure what your point is here. While I am not arguing that spending more than $3,000 on a bike gets you nothing more than fluff, the difference between the $2,500 bike vs. the $13,000 bike isn't the frame material. Contrary to what you believe, the cost difference between a carbon fiber frame and a CroMo frame isn't that different. The componentry on the bike makes for the biggest price difference.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> These "they're selling bikes we don't need" threads are hilarious. Nothing new about them, complainers been going on for years.
> All you NEED are two wheels and pedals. Hell, they use to do the tour DE France on single speeds. So you don't need all those fancy gears lol.
> There's bikes at all price levels. You can buy a decent bike for $1000, better than a bike from 10 years ago.
> 
> Buy what you want. Ride it and have fun.


Well, I don't think that you can buy a "decent" bike for $1,000 but then I have had absolutely top end second hand bikes of every material and have probably a different idea of what "decent" is. Aside from my Colnago CLX 3.0, I presently have a Lemond Zurich made of Reynolds 853 which is the finest riding bike I've ever ridden. Ready to ride in a Metric the Colnago weighs 19.8 lbs and the Lemond 22.2 lbs. These are both "Extra Large" models,

Now, since I've built these up myself they are cheaper than if you had it built up by a shop but I still have about $1,500 in either. The Basso Loto which is presently being reconditioned will be in the same price range. But these are absolutely top of the line in my opinion and I've been riding the best money can buy until the last 5 years. And if the newest bikes are in any way better it sure as hell doesn't make any difference to a 75 year old.

I'm presently close to 4,500 miles for the year. I missed the first three months because of first my eye surgery and then having to take by brother back and forth to the eye doctor every couple of days for his eyes. Then we had almost a solid month of rain. So I'm well behind my norm. And since around here we do a lot of climbing I'm just about to break 200,000 ft of climbing for the year. And I only count climbing that is 5% or more in the majority.

So it isn't as if I haven't had a great deal of experience or miles. Before I had a head injury in 2009 I had done 3 years over 10,000 miles and almost a half million feet of climbing in a row. 2009 was just under that.

I used to mostly ride Colnagos and Masi's. But the Colnagos were all materials from steel to titanium to aluminum to carbon fiber. I also had several English steel bikes and the Mersian was really a dream bike. In the Early days it was French bikes with Peugeot P-series the most common.

People that put in 1,000 miles a year on the flats seem the most likely to criticize other people talking about anything and these forums attract them like flies. 

I have worked in metals and heliarc'd titanium. That they use argon these days doesn't mean some one that knows that is some sort of expert. Helium is lighter than air and tends to needs to have a higher flow rate to maintain the envelope. Argon as anyone in first year chemistry would know is heavier than air slightly and would tend to hold the envelope far more cheaply. Should we be impressed that they use argon these days and someone knows that?

This being a discussion forum should be used for discussions and not for those who want to think they are exerting some sort of superiority over others. They certainly aren't and it only interrupts the discussions.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> I don't think the OP knows as much as he thinks he does about carbon bikes in particular and carbon fiber construction in general. I'm actually certain he doesn't.


Yup. He starts right out with a falsehood: "Titanium frames have roughly the same weight as CF." Simply not true. Note that I am on my second Ti frame, and if it got wrecked I would buy another, but I know full well that you can't make a comparable Ti frame to a CF frame at the same weight.

Beyond that the OP puts a lot of words together but I'm not sure what is the point of it all. Ignoring the technical misperceptions, the argument for anything in particular is not clear.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> This being a discussion forum should be used for discussions and not for those who want to think they are exerting some sort of superiority over others.


You do realize that's pretty much what your entire wall of bragging text was. 

Oh... and I ride more than you bro. :thumbsup: Which is irrelevant. Whether you ride 100mi or 10,000, ride what makes you happy. 

You don't NEED a Colnago CLX or a Lemond Zurich.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, I don't think that you can buy a "decent" bike for $1,000 but then I have had absolutely top end second hand bikes of every material and have probably a different idea of what "decent" is. Aside from my Colnago CLX 3.0, I presently have a Lemond Zurich made of Reynolds 853 which is the finest riding bike I've ever ridden. Ready to ride in a Metric the Colnago weighs 19.8 lbs and the Lemond 22.2 lbs. These are both "Extra Large" models,


I think you are giving frame material a lot more credit for difference in ride quality than it deserves. You should read the following:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, I don't think that you can buy a "decent" bike for $1,000 but then I have had absolutely top end second hand bikes of every material and have probably a different idea of what "decent" is. Aside from my Colnago CLX 3.0, I presently have a Lemond Zurich made of Reynolds 853 which is the finest riding bike I've ever ridden. Ready to ride in a Metric the Colnago weighs 19.8 lbs and the Lemond 22.2 lbs. These are both "Extra Large" models,
> 
> Now, since I've built these up myself they are cheaper than if you had it built up by a shop but I still have about $1,500 in either. The Basso Loto which is presently being reconditioned will be in the same price range. But these are absolutely top of the line in my opinion and I've been riding the best money can buy until the last 5 years. And if the newest bikes are in any way better it sure as hell doesn't make any difference to a 75 year old.
> 
> ...


Good god you can ramble.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Good god you can ramble.


It must be raining in San Leandro.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Seriously, you must be joking. Sorry, but I am not convinced that the advantages of tubeless outweigh the headaches.
> 
> I'm not really sure what your point is here. While I am not arguing that spending more than $3,000 on a bike gets you nothing more than fluff, the difference between the $2,500 bike vs. the $13,000 bike isn't the frame material. Contrary to what you believe, the cost difference between a carbon fiber frame and a CroMo frame isn't that different. The componentry on the bike makes for the biggest price difference.


I don't know what "headaches" you've had using tubeless tires but I haven't had headaches at all after the initial learning period. When you first install them they are slightly messy until you learn how to deal with them and then they are no problem if you use the proper sealants. Orange has to be replaced every 3 months and Finish Line is more or less permanent and you MIGHT have to add some additional after about the first three months and then you're OK. Like tube or tubular you have to maintain the pressure though it is lower and the rolling resistance of the tires are so much lower that even pro teams are moving over to them for their TT bikes. While I wasn't having flats using Continental Gatorskins the road feel was terrible and I was always afraid of losing traction. Using the Vittoria tubeless tires or the Continental GP5000TL's is GREAT.

A pro mechanic told me that the only reason that they use tubulars is because they can change a flat inside the team car on the move since they have limited roof rack room and you can watch the coverage of the Grand Tours and see them leaning out the windows and replacing the re-tired and refilled tire in the available wheel rack. This is especially important now with different disk brake and axle diameter standards from team to team.

As recreational riders we were using clinchers rather than the far better tubular tires because of convenience. Tubeless gives you tubular performance with even better convenience than clinchers because you never get a flat. Well, you can but it would take almost the destruction of the tire and that would stop you with any type of tire.

A friend of mine had his C40 collapse on him and now has a carbon fiber phobia so he wants only metal everything on his bikes. He would allow carbon shifters but Campy no longer makes a Record triple and he and his wife ride the smallest gears possible which is a bit odd since he was a Cat A racer. Maybe he considers himself old and broken down at 60. In any case, going to Italy and being measured by Tomassini himself and having custom bikes made with Campy Centaur and Mavic top end wheelsets and shipped to this country through their official US dealership, assembled here and delivered to him was $3,000/bike new.

While I'll grant you that putting electronic shifting and American deep section aero wheels with hydraulic disk brakes on a bike will shoot the price through the roof not a whole lot of people are willing to pay $3,000 for a bike, let alone $13,000. And damned if I can see one single advantage of electronic shifting. 

Disk brakes are a hazard as far as I'm concerned, My hydraulics put me over the bars on a hard descent when the front wheel hit a hard pothole and I did the natural thing and tightened my grip on the bars hard to avoid being thrown off. So the only advantage they seem to have is in rain where they clear the braking surface more rapidly. I do not purposely ride in the rain like a European pro is forced to do.

I buy Chinese deep section wheels and I have had ONE rim become delaminated. The company sent me a new rim which I stupidly accepted. Though I'm a fair wheel builder, carbon wheels are NOT put together like aluminum rims. They are put together on fully automated machines using torque measurements and not distance as old aluminum wheels were. So while it takes me less than an hour to build an aluminum wheel it took me three days to build the new deep section carbon rim. What a pain! It should be noted that because carbon fiber rims have a large variation in the bed thickness/strength, unlike an aluminum wheel in which the spoke tensions are nearly equal the CF wheel can have very large differences in spoke tension.

I have four sets of these wheels and that one failure on initial filling. The 50 mm deep clincher wheels are the best. They have almost no response to side gusts of wind. Maybe even less than a shallow section Campy aluminum wheel. The 55 mm deep tubulars were not safe - they did not have high enough spoke tension so I boosted it up and they are pretty good now. They do not wander around from insufficient spoke tension. 

You have to be aware that Continental GP5000's have such great traction that they wander a bit because of road irregularities even where it appears to be flat. The Vittorias do not do that since they have longitudinal tread on them. And they appear to have as good traction. (Be absolutely certain you put the Continentals on in the correct direction of rotation as noted on the sidewall).

So you can spend a great deal of money on a bike but what are you gaining? The UCI race weight limit is about 15 lbs so most carbon fiber frames are built without serious regard to weight. So you can make an aluminum alloy, titanium or carbon fiber bike that all weigh nearly the same if you are that interested in weight.

Assistant professor for the department of exercise and sport science at the University of Utah James C. Martin, Ph.D, put the weight of a bicycle to the test by measuring a rider's time on a 7 percent incline over 5 kilometers using a 15-pound bike (the minimum for racing as per the UCI rules) and the same bike with 5 pounds added. The difference in the climbing averages was about six seconds. That means that you can expect a mere 6 seconds over about 2 1/2 miles of 7 percent which is fairly steep. Around this country most people cannot climb at that sort of speed on that incline for 2 1/2 miles. Around here it is just a normal incline with "real" climbing at 10% and above. Although I can't go very far, I have done 1/8 mile of 24% and could actually coach people on a 16% incline. (This is on road bikes. On a full suspension 29er I found that I could BARELY climb a 24% in the lowest of gears because of the massive increase in weight and not at all on a CX bike since the super low gears it required would lift the front wheel causing the bike to spin around. This is why CX racers run and carry.)

If on a normal incline a normal incline a 30% increase in weight makes nearly no difference in climbing speed who is fooling who about bicycle weights in the modern range? For the recreational rider, age and training makes FAR more difference than weight or number of speeds.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> I think you are giving frame material a lot more credit for difference in ride quality than it deserves. You should read the following:
> 
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html


So you're a tourist commenting about frame material on a posting obviously meant for sports cycling? And the "ride" of a material used to be important with 20 mm tires pumped to 160 psi. With 25 mm tubeless tires the tires do all of the ride quality. Or if you're that sensitive you can use 28 mm tires. Perhaps you should take your "news" elsewhere.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Good god you can ramble.


Exactly who twisted your arm to be involved in the thread? Because of social media people have totally lost the art of conversation. They now comment not because they have anything to add but because they can. That doesn't say much for them.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

You ought to think a bit about how to express yourself more concisely. I'm not sure what the point to all those words you just wrote was.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> They now comment not because they have anything to add but because they can. That doesn't say much for them.


Bwahahahahaha





> And damned if I can see one single advantage of electronic shifting.





> Disk brakes are a hazard as far as I'm concerned, My hydraulics put me over the bars on a hard descent when the front wheel hit a hard pothole and I did the natural thing and tightened my grip on the bars hard to avoid being thrown off.


What do these have to do with frame materials? Or are you just commenting... cause you have nothing to add


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Tom Kunich said:


> While I'll grant you that putting electronic shifting and American deep section aero wheels with hydraulic disk brakes on a bike will shoot the price through the roof not a whole lot of people are willing to pay $3,000 for a bike, let alone $13,000. And damned if I can see one single advantage of electronic shifting.


This is totally crazy statement... my Di2 electonic was less than $4K, it's CF too!
NOT one advantage? How's about never having to change cables?


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

That Pro mechanic lied to you. They do not glue new tires to rims inside the moving team car for later use in the race. That is ludicrous!


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

duriel said:


> This is totally crazy statement... my Di2 electonic was less than $4K, it's CF too!
> NOT one advantage? How's about never having to change cables?


Not just changing cables, but never suffering degraded shifting from wear and gunked up cables/housing. And not having to adjust your derailleurs. Between mine and my wife's bikes, ~30,000 miles, I've never made a derailleur adjustment. Shifting is as perfect as day #1
All my road bikes are Di2. I would never own anything but Di2 again. 

No advantages. lol


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

202cycle said:


> That Pro mechanic lied to you. They do not glue new tires to rims inside the moving team car for later use in the race. That is ludicrous!


You have never used sewups have you?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> You have never used sewups have you?


You have never been inside a team car have you?
(Irrelevant questions are irrelevant)


No, they do not glue new tires to rims inside the moving team car for later use in the race. Whoever told you this lied. Or you're just making it up.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> You have never used sewups have you?


I raced and trained on sewups for 15 years and I've glued hundreds upon hundreds of them thank you. Never in one million eons would I glue one in the back of a race team car and allow a rider to use it that same day. Properly glued tires take time. I think you have sewups and clinchers confused.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> So you're a tourist commenting about frame material on a posting obviously meant for sports cycling? And the "ride" of a material used to be important with 20 mm tires pumped to 160 psi. With 25 mm tubeless tires the tires do all of the ride quality. Or if you're that sensitive you can use 28 mm tires. Perhaps you should take your "news" elsewhere.


Oh, so you not only have a reading comprehension problem, but now you're being an internet tough guy? :Yawn: The article applies to road frames as well as touring frames.

My point to linking that article was in response to your claim that your Reynolds 853 frame is the best riding bike you ever had. Maybe so, but not because of the material. There are many factors which can make a ride smoother or harsher and the one which will have the most impact are YOUR TIRES.

I agreed with you that it is silly to spend $13,000 on a bike, but hey, if it makes someone feel good, there will be a market for it. Carbon has become the go-to material for medium-high end bikes and whether we like it or not, it is what it is. As a result of mass consumption and production, carbon has come down in cost almost to where there isn't that big a price jump between an Al, CroMo or carbon frame. As I said, it is the componentry which pushes prices up. I have 7 bikes (including 2 carbon bikes) and have never spent more than $2,200 on a bike. The most expensive bikes I have ever bought are my 2014 full carbon Cannondale Synapse and my 2017 Reynolds 631 Jamis Renegade gravel bike - both were 105 groupos and both were $2,200. 

As far as tubeless, it is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. I get a flat less than once a year. I have seen people with tubeless tires get flats that weren't repairable and didn't seal. I felt sorry for the poor guy who had to call Uber while he and his bike were bathed in gooey sealant. The argument that tubeless gives you a nicer ride is offset by the fact that tubeless tires need stronger sidewalls and therefore will negate any of the "cushy advantage".

As far as e-shifting, no thank you. As far as hydraulic disc brakes, while I wouldn't go out of the way to get them, my gravel bike has them and they do have very nice modulation. Your incident with them was an obvious case of user error.



Tom Kunich said:


> I buy Chinese deep section wheels and I have had ONE rim become delaminated.


Your credibility in this thread just dropped a few more notches. Nuff said!


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

202cycle said:


> I raced and trained on sewups for 15 years and I've glued hundreds upon hundreds of them thank you. Never in one million eons would I glue one in the back of a race team car and allow a rider to use it that same day. Properly glued tires take time. I think you have sewups and clinchers confused.


I rode sew-ups for maybe 4 years. Pre-glued sew-ups simply pull over the old pre-glued rim that just had a flat. They even work better since they don't have to dry. If you are unaware of that you sure must have raced as a real expert and paid a mechanic to work on your bike. Maybe that is why there are so many second hand tubular carbon wheelsets on eBay for so little.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> What do these have to do with frame materials? *Or are you just commenting... cause you have nothing to add *


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tlg again.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tlg again.


Let me see if I understand you correctly you think that I should give my street creds to a man who has a puppet as his ID and another who uses an emoji? Should I ask if you're old enough to use mommy's laptop?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Let me see if I understand you correctly you think that I should give my street creds to a man who has a puppet as his ID and another who uses an emoji? Should I ask if you're old enough to use mommy's laptop?


You're seriously concerned about what avatars people use? lmao. 

In case you missed it, you have no street creds here. It's not a gang. But it's clear when you have no argument, you attack others. 

And still.. you are just commenting... cause you have nothing to add. Who was it that said that?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Trolls taste like chicken.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Kerry Irons said:


> Yup. He starts right out with a falsehood: "Titanium frames have roughly the same weight as CF." Simply not true. Note that I am on my second Ti frame, and if it got wrecked I would buy another, but I know full well that you can't make a comparable Ti frame to a CF frame at the same weight.
> 
> Beyond that the OP puts a lot of words together but I'm not sure what is the point of it all. Ignoring the technical misperceptions, the argument for anything in particular is not clear.


The smallest size Pinarello Dogma has a claimed weight of 1.75 lbs. The smallest size and lightest titanium frames are said to weigh about 2 lbs. Is that what you want to argue about? 

Even the smallest size Linskey which isn't a particularly light Ti bike is 3.5 lbs for the smallest size.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> The smallest size Pinarello Dogma has a claimed weight of 1.75 lbs.


Who weighs their frames in lbs???
Try some reading comprehension. He said a comparable frame. Carbon frames are light and AERO . You can't come remotely close to a comparable frame in Ti.
(a Trek emonda is 640g)



> The smallest size and lightest titanium frames are said to weigh about 2 lbs. Is that what you want to argue about?.


Who says? The guy who told you they glue sew ups in the back of team cars?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

duriel said:


> This is totally crazy statement... my Di2 electonic was less than $4K, it's CF too!
> NOT one advantage? How's about never having to change cables?


I assume you're talkin about SRAM's wireless electronic shifting. Great if it turns out that they aren't subject to interference. I don't know about that and it was my business for awhile. In general, you can have it fast (with low power) or you can have it secure. Pros ride most of the time in high gear and don't shift. In the hills with lots of shifting they don't have high power lines nearby. No big deal but it is something to think about. 

As for myself, it seems rather silly to have someone saying that they are horrified with having to turn an adjustment 1/4 turn every year or so to take up wear. And that is with my Campy which is the worse case with adjustments. DuraAce is always working. Though they are all getting less reliable shifting with compact gearing and a hill climbing 11-32. Of course I don't have any experience with the 11's and 12's since with a 10 speed I'm shifting two and three gears at a time in changing terrain.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> I don't know what "headaches" you've had using tubeless tires but I haven't had headaches at all after the initial learning period. When you first install them they are slightly messy until you learn how to deal with them and then they are no problem if you use the proper sealants. Orange has to be replaced every 3 months and Finish Line is more or less permanent and you MIGHT have to add some additional after about the first three months and then you're OK. Like tube or tubular you have to maintain the pressure though it is lower and the rolling resistance of the tires are so much lower that even pro teams are moving over to them for their TT bikes. While I wasn't having flats using Continental Gatorskins the road feel was terrible and I was always afraid of losing traction. Using the Vittoria tubeless tires or the Continental GP5000TL's is GREAT.
> 
> A pro mechanic told me that the only reason that they use tubulars is because they can change a flat inside the team car on the move since they have limited roof rack room and you can watch the coverage of the Grand Tours and see them leaning out the windows and replacing the re-tired and refilled tire in the available wheel rack. This is especially important now with different disk brake and axle diameter standards from team to team.
> 
> ...



For one thing you have absolutely no clue about tubular tires/wheels and have received some completely untrue information about them. If you want the facts feel free to ask me, I've been an actual pro team mechanic since 2004. I will answer any questions you have.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I assume you're talkin about SRAM's wireless electronic shifting. Great if it turns out that they aren't subject to interference. I don't know about that and it was my business for awhile. In general, you can have it fast (with low power) or you can have it secure. Pros ride most of the time in high gear and don't shift. In the hills with lots of shifting they don't have high power lines nearby. No big deal but it is something to think about.


lol 

You should stop trying to show off how little you know.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> You don't NEED a Colnago CLX or a Lemond Zurich.


What are you riding if that seems of any importance to you?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> What are you riding if that seems of any importance to you?


I'm not the one lecturing people on what they don't need. 
As I said, ride what makes you happy. But you don't need all those gears. So don't be a hypocrite and tell others what they need


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> You're seriously concerned about what avatars people use? lmao.
> 
> In case you missed it, you have no street creds here. It's not a gang. But it's clear when you have no argument, you attack others.
> 
> And still.. you are just commenting... cause you have nothing to add. Who was it that said that?


I didn't attack anyone? I responded in like manner. Perhaps you should actually look back through the string.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> For one thing you have absolutely no clue about tubular tires/wheels and have received some completely untrue information about them. If you want the facts feel free to ask me, I've been an actual pro team mechanic since 2004. I will answer any questions you have.


Good, How many riders do you have on your team and how many spare wheels front and rear do you carry?


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Tom Kunich said:


> .......
> Aluminum frames also CAN last forever ..........


Not according to my Materials professor at the engineering school where I received my engineering degree. Aluminum, by definition, ALWAYS has a finite life. You seem to know _ugatz _about everything you talk about in your screed. I am now that much dumber for wasting my time reading your drivel. Don't you have better things to do than post long-winded tomes on stuff which you are profoundly ignorant about?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Good, How many riders do you have on your team and how many spare wheels front and rear do you carry?


This doesn't have anything to do w/ any discussion in this thread but I said I'd answer anything. Generally 6 riders at any given race( AToC), sometimes 8. Mostly 6 for UCI races. I'd usually take 4 rears and 2-3 fronts. All tubulars. I've probably glued well over 1500 tubulars in the last 20-some years and I can say for sure you don't know the first thing about them. Nor do you have any meaningful knowledge of Di2. 

Troll.


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

Lombard said:


> It must be raining in San Leandro.


Guys and Gals, just go ogle Tom Kunich. Ignore him, let this thread die.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> Though they are all getting less reliable shifting with compact gearing and a hill climbing 11-32. Of course I don't have any experience with the 11's and 12's since with a 10 speed I'm shifting two and three gears at a time in changing terrain.


WTF are you talking about? Shimano mechanical shifting became much better with the advent of 5800/6800 and then 7000/8000 groupos which happen to be 11 speed. Of course you wouldn't know that since you have no experience with 11 speed groupos.

Perhaps you need a hug?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> WTF are you talking about?


You can't question an armchair quarterback.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Looks like our friend here has a trolling history and a posting vacation history as well:

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/search.php?searchid=2395041


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Looks like our friend here has a trolling history and a posting vacation history as well:
> 
> https://forums.roadbikereview.com/search.php?searchid=2395041


Bwahahahaha.... makes this thread even funnier! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:



Tom Kunich said:


> I was sort of hoping that a materials scientist would chip in with the reason that CO2 leaves a tube somewhat faster than air (which is mostly nitrogen). I am not a chemist *but an engineer.*


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Bwahahahaha.... makes this thread even funnier! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Yup!

What happened to your green emoji?


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I rode sew-ups for maybe 4 years. Pre-glued sew-ups simply pull over the old pre-glued rim that just had a flat. They even work better since they don't have to dry. If you are unaware of that you sure must have raced as a real expert and paid a mechanic to work on your bike. Maybe that is why there are so many second hand tubular carbon wheelsets on eBay for so little.


With all due respect (which you deserve very little of at this point), you don't have a clue.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Your credibility in this thread just dropped a few more notches. Nuff said!


So you have a problem with Chinese carbon wheels do you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87MsGZ8fP9k


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

I was mistaken about the cost of the new custom built from the rider's measurements Tomassini. They were $5,000 each for him and his wife.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> WTF are you talking about? Shimano mechanical shifting became much better with the advent of 5800/6800 and then 7000/8000 groupos which happen to be 11 speed. Of course you wouldn't know that since you have no experience with 11 speed groupos.
> 
> Perhaps you need a hug?


I still haven't seen you post what you're riding. I suggest that if you're going to tell me about the 11 speed shifting that you actually be riding it.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I still haven't seen you post what you're riding. I suggest that if you're going to tell me about the 11 speed shifting that you actually be riding it.


Lots of us are riding 11sp. YOU are not. YOU do not know what you're talking about. (when you're in a hole... stop digging)



Tom Kunich said:


> Though they are all getting less reliable shifting with compact gearing and a hill climbing 11-32. *Of course I don't have any experience with the 11's and 12's* since with a 10 speed I'm shifting two and three gears at a time in changing terrain.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> This doesn't have anything to do w/ any discussion in this thread but I said I'd answer anything. Generally 6 riders at any given race( AToC), sometimes 8. Mostly 6 for UCI races. I'd usually take 4 rears and 2-3 fronts. All tubulars. I've probably glued well over 1500 tubulars in the last 20-some years and I can say for sure you don't know the first thing about them. Nor do you have any meaningful knowledge of Di2.
> 
> Troll.


So you have 6 to 8 riders and 4 rear wheels and 2-3 front. There are areas in European races in which the entire Peloton will get flats all at once. We watched coverage of one of the lead riders get a flat three times over the length of a stage. In spring classis getting several flats is all part of the race.

So what you're saying is that you simply kiss off part of your team because you believe that you have to put fresh wet glue on ever wheel and let them dry overnight.

I haven't the slightest idea where you're coming from. On training rides we always had two sewups tied under the back of the saddle with toe clip straps. If we got a flat we just pulled the flat off of the rim and pulled the replacement on. You'd ride carefully for the first 10 minutes and then ride normally after that.

It is not as if this was any sort of magic so I cannot understand why you seem to think that you can throw away perhaps half of your team because you don't know how to change a sewup.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> There are areas in European races in which the entire Peloton will get flats all at once.


Bull$#it. Never happened. Ever.




> It is not as if this was any sort of magic so I cannot understand why you seem to think that you can throw away perhaps half of your team because you don't know how to change a sewup.


No pro changes a sewup in a race. Ever. 


Of course it should be easy for you to show some YouTube videos of these occurrences. An entire peloton getting flats all at once would be the biggest news in the history of bike racing. As well as a team mechanic fixing a sewup roadside.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> So you have 6 to 8 riders and 4 rear wheels and 2-3 front. There are areas in European races in which the entire Peloton will get flats all at once. We watched coverage of one of the lead riders get a flat three times over the length of a stage. In spring classis getting several flats is all part of the race.
> 
> So what you're saying is that you simply kiss off part of your team because you believe that you have to put fresh wet glue on ever wheel and let them dry overnight.
> 
> ...


Stop it. Stop it. Stop it! This argument of yours is just plain wrong. For anyone out there riding tubulars, please do not follow this guys advice. CX and I along with i assume many others in this thread know how to mount a F(&^ing tubular. No mechanic on this planet would let someone ride a tire in the condition you described above EVER.go back to your other silly ideas about disc brakes and 11 speed drivetrains. At least those opinions won't kill someone.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> lol
> 
> You should stop trying to show off how little you know.


How little I know about what? I'm an electronics engineer specializing in embedded systems which electronic shifting is. I have communications boards I designed and programmed on the International Space Station. I designed the micro-titration device used to discover HIV and clear it out of the world wide blood banking system so that people like Greg Lemond could be treated in a fraction of the time. So I suppose I should wonder what you know about it?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> I'm not the one lecturing people on what they don't need.
> As I said, ride what makes you happy. But you don't need all those gears. So don't be a hypocrite and tell others what they need


Then perhaps you can explain your comments about Ti not being Aero? Or your belief that Chinese carbon wheels are inferior? Or how 11 and 12 speeds shift better than 10 speeds even though they have extremely wide gear ratios? Oh yeah, and how you know all about Di2?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Not according to my Materials professor at the engineering school where I received my engineering degree. Aluminum, by definition, ALWAYS has a finite life. You seem to know _ugatz _about everything you talk about in your screed. I am now that much dumber for wasting my time reading your drivel. Don't you have better things to do than post long-winded tomes on stuff which you are profoundly ignorant about?


Indeed your professor is correct. BUT if that finite life is longer than your own lifespan what difference does it make? Alan and Vitus aluminum bikes are all over the place and not failing. You can go to Trek and buy lower end aluminum framed road bikes with a lifetime warranty on them.

Aluminum is a material that always has a stress to failure point. But it is entirely dependent upon the percentage of stress to material strength. Heavier tubes (relatively) last longer. Some aluminum alloys have such a high strength that the stress of a rider on a frame is so small that you can effectively say that they are not being stressed.

What do you suppose the lifespan of a B52 is? They are made entirely of aluminum alloy and were initially brought into service in 1954. Although most of the fleet is moth-balled virtually every one of them is flyable.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> So you have 6 to 8 riders and 4 rear wheels and 2-3 front. There are areas in European races in which the entire Peloton will get flats all at once. We watched coverage of one of the lead riders get a flat three times over the length of a stage. In spring classis getting several flats is all part of the race.
> 
> So what you're saying is that you simply kiss off part of your team because you believe that you have to put fresh wet glue on ever wheel and let them dry overnight.
> 
> ...


You are lying. Outright lying. You have absolutely ZERO idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever. People like you spouting bullshit like this are what causes members to get angry and turn threads into shouting matches...which in turn keeps new members from wanting to ever post anything. I've seen your crap on other forums and what people say about you there as well. You live for this ****. You know a very tiny little bit about a bunch of random topics and it's just enough to start **** everywhere you post. You'll never stop because you crave the attention. You're desperate for it.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Then perhaps you can explain your comments about Ti not being Aero? Or your belief that Chinese carbon wheels are inferior? Or how 11 and 12 speeds shift better than 10 speeds even though they have extremely wide gear ratios? Oh yeah, and how you know all about Di2?


Ti is less Aero than carbon. There's nothing to explain 

I never said anything about Chinese carbon. Pay attention to what you read. 

11 shifts as good or better than 10. I've had both. It does. Period.. You don't know what you're talking about. 

I know all about di2 because as I've said I have 3 bikes, all with Di2, and I built them all. I know what I'm talking about. You don't.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> I still haven't seen you post what you're riding. I suggest that if you're going to tell me about the 11 speed shifting that you actually be riding it.


Eeeeegad Beavis, pay attention! Did you not read my post #28 where I said:



Lombard said:


> I have 7 bikes (including 2 carbon bikes) and have never spent more than $2,200 on a bike. The most expensive bikes I have ever bought are my 2014 full carbon Cannondale Synapse and my 2017 Reynolds 631 Jamis Renegade gravel bike - both were 105 groupos and both were $2,200.


And both are 11 speed. Now, pay very, very close attention here. My 11 speed bikes shift smoother than my 10 speed and 9 speed bikes. But not because of 11 speeds, but because Shimano made improvements when they went to 11 speed. Got it?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> How little I know about what? I'm an electronics engineer specializing in embedded systems which electronic shifting is. I have communications boards I designed and programmed on the International Space Station. I designed the micro-titration device used to discover HIV and clear it out of the world wide blood banking system so that people like Greg Lemond could be treated in a fraction of the time. So I suppose I should wonder what you know about it?


We're on a bicycle forum. We're talking about bicycles. Unless you're an engineer working in the bicycle business I don't give a rat's ass what you do. You know what I do and at what level I do it. Knowing that you should just not post in this thread anymore but that won't happen.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

duriel said:


> This is totally crazy statement... my Di2 electonic was less than $4K, it's CF too!
> NOT one advantage? How's about never having to change cables?


To tell you the truth I had to think on this for awhile. Unless I'm changing components I've never changed shift or brake cables. I takes a ride or two on a new set of cables for them to "stretch" so that you can reset the adjustments. And that only is on the shift cables. I've never had brake cables stretch. Well, at least not since we started using stainless steel.

The SRAM eTap levers alone with hydraulic disk capability are $2400. I suppose that you can buy a finished bike with these sorts of components on them for perhaps 30% cheaper but American deep carbon wheels are nearly $2,000. That doesn't leave a great deal of room for a disk brake capable carbon frame. Nor the rest of a build package.

So exactly what is crazy about what I wrote?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> So you have a problem with Chinese carbon wheels do you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87MsGZ8fP9k


Not as long as I have a good dental plan. And you yourself said you have one that delaminated. See below:

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/bulges-spoke-holes-carbon-wheels-photos-355401.html

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/w...after-5-rides-less-than-200-miles-365053.html

Furthermore, the wheels in the video you linked are from a reputable brand, not a Chinese knock-off.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> To tell you the truth I had to think on this for awhile. Unless I'm changing components I've never changed shift or brake cables.


lmao 



> The SRAM eTap levers alone with hydraulic disk capability are $2400.


omg your cluelessness knows no limits. etap isn't di2. And di2 (or etap) come in rim brake versions.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> To tell you the truth I had to think on this for awhile. Unless I'm changing components I've never changed shift or brake cables. I takes a ride or two on a *new set of cables for them to "stretch"* so that you can reset the adjustments. And that only is on the shift cables. I've never had brake cables stretch. Well, at least not since we started using stainless steel.
> 
> The *SRAM eTap levers alone with hydraulic disk capability are $2400*. I suppose that you can buy a finished bike with these sorts of components on them for perhaps 30% cheaper but American deep carbon wheels are nearly $2,000. That doesn't leave a great deal of room for a disk brake capable carbon frame. Nor the rest of a build package.
> 
> So exactly what is crazy about what I wrote?


Both points you just made. 

No cable 'stretches'. Doesn't happen. 

SRAM AXS etap hydro levers (and brakes and derailleurs and rotors and charging stuff) is $2500 for Red, Force is $2000. Red AXS etap shifters/disc calipers are $1200 a set, not $2400. 

Keep going, every post you make chisels away at any last shred of credibility you might have. Wanna talk about tubulars again? Di2 security? 11 speed drivetrains that you haven't even ridden yet?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Eeeeegad Beavis, pay attention! Did you not read my post #28 where I said:
> 
> 
> 
> And both are 11 speed. Now, pay very, very close attention here. My 11 speed bikes shift smoother than my 10 speed and 9 speed bikes. But not because of 11 speeds, but because Shimano made improvements when they went to 11 speed. Got it?


And yet you still haven't said what you're riding. The entire reason behind a 12 speed was a single chainring. To have the same gear spread as a Campy Record 10 speed on a compact crank with an 11-28 rear cogset that would be something like an 11-60. That means that the 12 speed has a reduced ratio set. But it is STILL over a much larger cogset of 11-34 or even 11-36, These do not shift better despite your claims about it. The rear derailleur has a much larger throw and in order to control the hopping they are putting hydraulic movement controllers in them.

And you aren't a pro-racer. You don't even use half of the ratios you have with a 10 speed let alone an 11. What in the hell do you do with a cogset of 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28? Oh, wait, you need a 32 don't you? So it is 11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-25-28-32. Oh wait - you can't put linear chain pickups on a cassette like that.

That 11 speed should work well on your Trek 2300.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> And yet you still haven't said what you're riding. .................


I told you twice. Arrrrrrgggghhhh, I give up! :mad2:


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> And you aren't a pro-racer. You don't even use half of the ratios you have with a 10 speed let alone an 11. What in the hell do you do with a cogset of 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28?


lmao you're a hoot. Pure ignorance. 
You don't need to be a pro racer to use all your gears. That's just stupid. 

11-32 shifts like butter. Big ring or little. Cross chain. Doesn't matter. 

Thanks for all the laughs!


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> You are lying. Outright lying. You have absolutely ZERO idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever. People like you spouting bullshit like this are what causes members to get angry and turn threads into shouting matches...which in turn keeps new members from wanting to ever post anything. I've seen your crap on other forums and what people say about you there as well. You live for this ****. You know a very tiny little bit about a bunch of random topics and it's just enough to start **** everywhere you post. You'll never stop because you crave the attention. You're desperate for it.


Look, you haven't answered the questions I posed. Is that why you're getting upset? Because you don't actually have any answers? Last year (year before?) in the early stages of the Tour when they went through the Paris-Roubaix course the first three riders were the ONLY members of all of the teams not to get a flat.

Explain how they managed to not lose half of their 9 man teams while only carrying 4 rear wheels. 

The team mechanic I talked to was lying to me right? 

Do you suppose that the Mavic neutral support car was able to give everyone a wheel? Oh, wait, they only carry normal rim brake wheels with the small axles. There are several different axle sizes for disk brake wheels. And two different diameter disks.

I am sorry that this is upsetting you but YOU are the one telling ME that I don't know what I'm talking about even though we normally rode sew-ups like this. As good clinchers came out we stopped using them because everyone was tired of scraping off the glue, cutting the sew-ups open and repairing the tubes and sewing them back up again and regluing them on.

You said that you've glued on HUNDREDS of these and yet you cannot carry enough for a team. Then you start talking about CX which is an entirely different circus. You have a pit and a large stack of spare wheels.

Do you think that I haven't raced before and know at least a little about it? I can sure tell the BS when it is flowing. I'm sure that you know what you're doing but I'm also sure that you only do a rather small part of it.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> lmao
> 
> omg your cluelessness knows no limits. etap isn't di2. And di2 (or etap) come in rim brake versions.


At what point are you going to learn what this string is about? It ended up being about $13,000 bikes what with your continuing to change the subject. Now you're trying to find a cheaper version to offer?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Look, you haven't answered the questions I posed. Is that why you're getting upset? Because you don't actually have any answers? Last year (year before?) in the early stages of the Tour when they went through the Paris-Roubaix course the first three riders were the ONLY members of all of the teams not to get a flat.
> 
> Explain how they managed to not lose half of their 9 man teams while only carrying 4 rear wheels.
> 
> ...


It's obvious to me and everyone else that you don't know what you're talking about. I NEVER mentioned CX...that's my screen name. You asked me what I took in the car, I told you. I've NEVER run out of wheels. If that's the case I've never had a rider not finish a race because I didn't have a wheel for them. I've NEVER worked P-R so I don't worry about massive numbers of pinch flats/punctures. I can tell by how you talk about tubulars you're clueless. 
There has never been a race...any race...where over 180 riders flatted at the same time. If you think there has been the burden of proof is on you. 
I've worked for mens pro teams, womens pro teams, the US National Team, UCI ranked CX, Track, and Mtb riders. I've worked at multiple World Cups and National Championships in all disciplines. Yes, I know a little of what we're talking about. 
You? You're a guy that rides bikes and claims to have 'talked' to people.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> lmao you're a hoot. Pure ignorance.
> You don't need to be a pro racer to use all your gears. That's just stupid.
> 
> 11-32 shifts like butter. Big ring or little. Cross chain. Doesn't matter.
> ...


Oh, that's right - you have everything ever built on a bicycle you cannot tell us about. I keep forgetting these little points.

This was about frame materials. The point was that it doesn't MATTER what materials you use. Carbon fiber is more aero? Prove that it makes any difference at all since 90% of the drag on a bike is the rider. The infinitesimal difference in drag between a CF frame and any other round tube frame is completely negated with one single gust of wind while you're sitting upright to round a corner.

Tour de France times are coming down? Gee, maybe that has something to do with the average stage length getting shorter. That is what is known by big boys as "marketing".

As for your idea that you don't have to be a racer yada yada - there's a large difference between putting it in a gear and it making any difference. 8 speeds were about all that was needed on a human powered bicycle. Armstrong wanted a 9th so that he could always have a climbing gear and whatever Lance did was magic. The component manufacturers were inundated with the demand for 9 speeds and they discovered that simply adding another gear would cause everyone to trash perfectly good components and buy an entirely new group.

That doesn't mean that there haven't been perfectly good improvements. Skeleton brakes have a higher leverage and make easier application of the brakes. Compact cranks allow you to use only two speed rings without the complication and weight of a triple. Shimano pioneered the Compact front derailleur which is far less likely to drop a chain. Through shaft cranks are lighter and stiffer.

But number of gears? What a joke.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JdU7e38RqzdlakU/giphy-facebook_s.jpg


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Oh, that's right - you have everything ever built on a bicycle you cannot tell us about. I keep forgetting these little points.
> 
> This was about frame materials. The point was that it doesn't MATTER what materials you use. Carbon fiber is more aero? Prove that it makes any difference at all since 90% of the drag on a bike is the rider. The infinitesimal difference in drag between a CF frame and any other round tube frame is completely negated with one single gust of wind while you're sitting upright to round a corner.
> 
> ...


As NTT posted...old men yelling at clouds, what a joke.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> Indeed your professor is correct. BUT if that finite life is longer than your own lifespan what difference does it make? Alan and Vitus aluminum bikes are all over the place and not failing. You can go to Trek and buy lower end aluminum framed road bikes with a lifetime warranty on them.
> 
> Aluminum is a material that always has a stress to failure point. But it is entirely dependent upon the percentage of stress to material strength. Heavier tubes (relatively) last longer. Some aluminum alloys have such a high strength that the stress of a rider on a frame is so small that you can effectively say that they are not being stressed.
> 
> What do you suppose the lifespan of a B52 is? They are made entirely of aluminum alloy and were initially brought into service in 1954. Although most of the fleet is moth-balled virtually every one of them is flyable.


Well, except this one...

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-ga...-bomber-plane-crashes-connecticut/3843288002/

Granted a B-17.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Indeed your professor is correct. BUT if that finite life is longer than your own lifespan what difference does it make? Alan and Vitus aluminum bikes are all over the place and not failing. You can go to Trek and buy lower end aluminum framed road bikes with a lifetime warranty on them.
> 
> Aluminum is a material that always has a stress to failure point. But it is entirely dependent upon the percentage of stress to material strength. Heavier tubes (relatively) last longer. Some aluminum alloys have such a high strength that the stress of a rider on a frame is so small that you can effectively say that they are not being stressed.
> 
> What do you suppose the lifespan of a B52 is? They are made entirely of aluminum alloy and were initially brought into service in 1954. Although most of the fleet is moth-balled virtually every one of them is flyable.


There you go again...spouting w/ limited knowledge. The B-52 has undergone wing repairs/upgrades/reskins/replacements since the early 60's when they weren't even 10 years old. That's definitely 'finite'.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> At what point are you going to learn what this string is about
> It ended up being about $13,000 bikes what with your continuing to change the subject.


It's clearly about whatever bats#it crazy new thing you make up. You're the only one changing the subject every time you get busted on your BS.



> Oh, that's right - you have everything ever built on a bicycle you cannot tell us about. I keep forgetting these little points.


Nope, never said that. Your wheels are spinning in your sad deflection. 



> .Carbon fiber is more aero? Prove that it makes any difference at all since 90% of the drag on a bike is the rider.


lmao there you go changing the premise. Carbon is more aero. Period. Fact. Undisputed.

As far as difference, since you brought it up, there is a difference. Period. Fact. Undisputed 



> The infinitesimal difference in drag between a CF frame and any other round tube frame is completely negated with one single gust of wind while you're sitting upright to round a corner.


uhhhh. No. 10000% wrong. That gust of wind would affect both bikes. Net gain still goes to the aero bike. 



> Tour de France times are coming down?


I never said it was or wasn't. Stop yelling at clouds 




> As for your idea that you don't have to be a racer yada yada - there's a large difference between putting it in a gear and it making any difference.


there you go changing the premise again. You said you have to he a racer to use all the gears. Which is flat BS.
Your concept of difference is irrelevant and silly 


Thanks for the laughs. But I think the clouds are tired.


----------



## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Maybe we can have "Roger" test his sprinting on a carbon versus Ti bicycle? That would be fitting.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ASFOS' troll threads were more fun.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

GKSki said:


> Maybe we can have "Roger" test his sprinting on a carbon versus Ti bicycle? That would be fitting.


If the frames pass the _eXtreme_Roger[SUP]®[/SUP] tests, they'll be eligible to wear the coveted LBD *Roger Tested - Roger Approved*[SUP]®[/SUP]


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

No Time Toulouse said:


> https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JdU7e38RqzdlakU/giphy-facebook_s.jpg


Well it certainly takes a great deal of intellectual capacity to add as much to the conversation as you have. PS - you didn't explain why B52's built no later than the early 1960's are still flying after your comments about aluminum always failing.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> It's obvious to me and everyone else that you don't know what you're talking about. I NEVER mentioned CX...that's my screen name. You asked me what I took in the car, I told you. I've NEVER run out of wheels. If that's the case I've never had a rider not finish a race because I didn't have a wheel for them. I've NEVER worked P-R so I don't worry about massive numbers of pinch flats/punctures. I can tell by how you talk about tubulars you're clueless.
> There has never been a race...any race...where over 180 riders flatted at the same time. If you think there has been the burden of proof is on you.
> I've worked for mens pro teams, womens pro teams, the US National Team, UCI ranked CX, Track, and Mtb riders. I've worked at multiple World Cups and National Championships in all disciplines. Yes, I know a little of what we're talking about.
> You? You're a guy that rides bikes and claims to have 'talked' to people.


Funny, I could have sworn I just talked about the entire field getting flats in a stage of the Tour de France that covered the P-R course except for the front three finishers. That front three had been four and one of them got a flat. Again, you tell people they don't know what they're talking about simply because it is something beyond your experience. I tell you that we would carry pre-glued tires with us and you tell me I'm full of it. But Europeans do exactly the same thing on training rides. Your comments about a team of 6 shows that you maybe worked for a small semi-pro American team only in the US. All of that is fine but if you don't know what you're talking about do not tell us that you've glued on "hundreds" of tubulars. Plainly you haven't because simply removing a used tire would show you that the glue is still effective after you've pulled it off. 

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/bu...ke-tyres-in-2019-everything-you-need-to-know/

"The disadvantage of tubulars — one that’s felt much more keenly by regular cyclists than the pros — is that having a tyre that’s glued to the rim makes repairing a puncture during a ride very difficult.

Your two options are using a CO2 inflator cartridge containing sealant or tearing off the punctured tubular and replacing it with another, which obviously means riding with a spare. (Actually repairing a punctured tubular, rather than simply replacing it, means breaking out the sewing kit.)

You can — carefully — ride home on a spare tubular stretched over a rim, but you must glue this new tubular in place before your next ride. Gluing a tubular is no piece of cake either and a bad job can result in the tyre rolling off the rim and a painful crash."

I suppose this guy gets the idea that the tire isn't really glued on because he never used "used" (already glued) tires as the spares. And if you could use tape what prevents you from carrying tape? I've never used that but if you're so knowledgeable about this why didn't you think of that rather than tell me that mechanic lied to me?

There is something wrong with the group of you who had nothing but brainless chatter rather than any conversation at all. Is this the sort of life you guys live? You live to make yourselves feel superior simply by taking pot shots at others? Well. I guess like the rest of your lives, you failed yet again. When someone has done something you can't tell him he hasn't.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

GKSki said:


> Maybe we can have "Roger" test his sprinting on a carbon versus Ti bicycle? That would be fitting.


What do you think that would prove? UCI bikes all weigh the same and sprints are far too short for any aero advantage to have any effect. That would be like being concerned with rolling resistance of the tires - definitely makes a difference over the length of a stage but has no effect on the sprint.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

So you're back on the pastry board flat east coast telling us all about riding bicycles huh?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Funny, I could have sworn I just talked about the entire field getting flats in a stage of the Tour de France that covered the P-R course except for the front three finishers.


No. That is not what you said. YET AGAIN, you make outlandish claims, get called on it, then change what you "think you said".

Here is what you said


Tom Kunich said:


> There are areas in European races in which the entire Peloton will get flats all at once. We watched coverage of one of the lead riders get a flat three times over the length of a stage. In spring classis getting several flats is all part of the race.


This is a bull$#it lie. This never happened. An entire peloton has never all got flats at once. Never. Not in the Tour de France. Not in "European races". 
Surely you could provide proof of this. It's so fantastical it's be all over the news, youtube, and every bicycle related site around the world.







> I tell you that we would carry pre-glued tires with us and you tell me I'm full of it. But Europeans do exactly the same thing on training rides.


And... YET AGAIN, changing your story.

Here is what you said


Tom Kunich said:


> A pro mechanic told me that the only reason that they use tubulars is because they can change a flat inside the team car on the move since they have limited roof rack room and you can watch the coverage of the Grand Tours and see them leaning out the windows and replacing the re-tired and refilled tire in the available wheel rack.


This is a bull$#it lie. Pros do not do this. Ever.
Surely you could provide proof of this with videos from the Grand Tours.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Funny, I could have sworn I just talked about the entire field getting flats in a stage of the Tour de France that covered the P-R course except for the front three finishers. That front three had been four and one of them got a flat. Again, you tell people they don't know what they're talking about simply because it is something beyond your experience. I tell you that we would carry pre-glued tires with us and you tell me I'm full of it. But Europeans do exactly the same thing on training rides. Your comments about a team of 6 shows that you maybe worked for a small semi-pro American team only in the US. All of that is fine but if you don't know what you're talking about do not tell us that you've glued on "hundreds" of tubulars. Plainly you haven't because simply removing a used tire would show you that the glue is still effective after you've pulled it off.
> 
> https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/bu...ke-tyres-in-2019-everything-you-need-to-know/
> 
> ...


Again you're trying to change what you previously said. It's common practice to carry a pre-glued tire _on a training ride_, and ride home gently after flatting. NOT carrying a pre-glued tire in the team car and haphazardly putting it on a wheel that had flatted w/o any fresh glue. 
Your comment about me working for a _small, semi-pro team_ reinforces your ignorance. The womens team I've spent the last 11 years with is a UCI World Tour team. They are limited to 6 riders in some races by the UCI, not because they can't field more riders. It's the team of 3 time Olympic Champion Kristin Armstrong and 8 time World Champion Chloe Dygert-Owen. Not to mention numerous other Nation Champions from USA, Cananda, Mexico. 
You have very limited experience w/ everything you post about and because of your massive insecurities can't imagine admitting you're wrong and learning something. Therefore you deny the knowledge and experience of numerous other posters as being legitimate. You live pretty close to me, why don't you come up and we'll chat about bikes in general and racing in particular? You might learn something if you'd allow yourself to do so.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

From the article you linked to support your claim that you can just stick a pre-glued (and dried) tubluar on a rim and ride it in a race:

"You can — carefully — ride home on a spare tubular stretched over a rim,* but you must glue this new tubular in place before your next ride*. Gluing a tubular is no piece of cake either and a bad job can result in the tyre rolling off the rim and a painful crash."

Go home Dad, you're drunk


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

202cycle said:


> From the article you linked to support your claim that you can just stick a pre-glued (and dried) tubluar on a rim and ride it in a race:
> 
> "You can — carefully — ride home on a spare tubular stretched over a rim


Meh.... what pro racer doesn't like to _carefully _ride to the finish line after their mechanic puts a pre-glued tire on in the back of a moving car. Happens all the time. Sometimes the entire peloton rides carefully after they all simultaneously flat at once.


Hilarious when someone clueless provides their own evidence to further prove their cluelessness.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

tlg said:


> Meh.... what pro racer doesn't like to _carefully _ride to the finish line after their mechanic puts a pre-glued tire on in the back of a moving car. Happens all the time. Sometimes the entire peloton rides carefully after they all simultaneously flat at once.
> 
> 
> Hilarious when someone clueless provides their own evidence to further prove their cluelessness.


Anxiously awaiting the next wall of text that will no doubt explain this all away.
This is better than P.O.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

202cycle said:


> Anxiously awaiting the next wall of text that will no doubt explain this all away.
> This is better than P.O.


I still say ASFOS was more fun to play with.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Tom Kunich said:


> So you're back on the pastry board flat east coast telling us all about riding bicycles huh?


I've ridden in the tallest areas of Berkshires in upstate NY and the Appalachians in western PA.

Pastry board flat? 

Not even Roger, bike tester _par excellence_, would say something so goofy.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> I've ridden in the tallest areas of Berkshires in upstate NY and the Appalachians in western PA.
> 
> Pastry board flat?
> 
> Not even Roger, bike tester _par excellence_, would say something so goofy.


I'll be you didn't know that Mount Greylock is flat?


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Two things Tom.

Please provide a link to the time the entire Tour peloton got flat tires at the same time. I googled that and came up short. I've watched every tour since 1986 and don't recall having seen this.

Who is the pro mechanic who told you the tubular tire bologna and what team did he work for?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> There you go again...spouting w/ limited knowledge. The B-52 has undergone wing repairs/upgrades/reskins/replacements since the early 60's when they weren't even 10 years old. That's definitely 'finite'.


I was Air Force in the Vietnam War including flying combat missions. The Framework of the B52 cannot be updated or changed and if you know anything about them you'd know that. The aircraft flexes in flight and so the wing panels become twisted and need replacement. THAT IS NOT UPDATING. Over the last 10 years the skin has been replaced with carbon fiber I believe since it doesn't stretch. Again, that is NOT the framework which would require total rebuild to replace.

The B52D would get vertical stabilizer damage to the vertical stabilizer from aerodynamic forces and the tail was replaced with a shorter version. The aircraft who broke the tails off still maneuvered and returned to base.

Now tell me what in the hell you know about the Air Force.

Bomb/Nav Tech 32130L


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Next to janky threads about sketchy new pedals named after a hinky breed of dog, this thread is The Best Thread.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

SPlKE said:


> Next to janky threads about sketchy new pedals named after a hinky breed of dog, this thread is The Best Thread.


I need to go back and read the OP again. 

Hey Tom! Tom? How about that Tour link?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> I've ridden in the tallest areas of Berkshires in upstate NY and the Appalachians in western PA.
> 
> Pastry board flat?
> 
> Not even Roger, bike tester _par excellence_, would say something so goofy.


There are small very steep hills I will grant you. Why don't you come out here and do the Death Ride with us? 5 passes and 15,000 feet of climbing all topping out over 8,300 feet where the air is so thin that you have to pretend you're breathing. Or the 70 miles or so around Lake Tahoe. If memory serves it has a high spot of 10,000 feet. And of course you could be in the middle of that when the sky opens up and drops hail the size of ping-pong balls on you.

Aside from a very few areas in the Appalachians in which the hills are so damn steep that they don't even build houses on them we can say exactly the same thing about San Francisco here where the hills are so steep that the sidewalks are actually steps.

Going up HOLY BEJESUS 17th Ave in a 34-28 could make you dream of a 32 or 34 but three blocks down the grade is 5%. There is a 1/8th mile hill at aquatic park that is 17% and one near the Rodeo Grounds in the Dublin Grade near Dublin that is 16% for a 1/4th mile.

I have seen the coverage of that yearly ride in (Pennsylvania?) that goes up all of the super hard climbs but you don't think that these CS guys who are talking so big could even think of that do you?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> There are small very steep hills I will grant you. Why don't you come out here and do the Death Ride with us? 5 passes and 15,000 feet of climbing all topping out over 8,300 feet where the air is so thin that you have to pretend you're breathing. Or the 70 miles or so around Lake Tahoe. If memory serves it has a high spot of 10,000 feet. And of course you could be in the middle of that when the sky opens up and drops hail the size of ping-pong balls on you.
> 
> Aside from a very few areas in the Appalachians in which the hills are so damn steep that they don't even build houses on them we can say exactly the same thing about San Francisco here where the hills are so steep that the sidewalks are actually steps.
> 
> ...


Great story bro

So... where is the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once? 
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> Next to janky threads about sketchy new pedals named after a hinky breed of dog, this thread is The Best Thread.


Sorry that it has drifted so far from the original discussion. Or perhaps I should say, attempted discussion. From a position of "frame material doesn't make any difference for recreational riders" We have some knothead telling us that because a tubeless tire was destroyed they aren't any good. It doesn't matter that the same thing could happen with a clincher or sewup. Or that if you get a flat out on a training ride with a sewup you have to call AAA.

And I think you mean SpD not Pug.........


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> I'll be you didn't know that Mount Greylock is flat?


I'll be - you don't know that we have three hills in the bay area taller than that? You must sure be weak if you need 11 speeds and a 32 to climb something like that. On a NORMAL Tuesday ride yesterday I did more climbing than that.

Imagine having to pick the tallest hill in the entire state of Massachusetts and pretend that you've ever ridden it.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I'll be - you don't know that we have three hills in the bay area taller than that? You must sure be weak if you need 11 speeds and a 32 to climb something like that. On a NORMAL Tuesday ride yesterday I did more climbing than that.


You must sure be weak if you need 9 or 10 speeds and a 28.
They use to do the Tour de France with single speeds.

Man up! You don't need all those gears.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

You want to hear some gnarly climb stories? Ask Frederico about Mount Wilson.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> You must sure be weak if you need 9 or 10 speeds and a 28.
> They use to do the Tour de France with single speeds.
> 
> Man up! You don't need all those gears.


The simple Saturday ride two weeks in a row were over 3400 feet of climbing and 50 miles and I'm 75. Mt Hamilton is 5,000 feet high and you have to do 1,500 over a hump and back down to get to the start of the Hamilton climb. We consider that an easy climb since it is only about 7% for the most part.

I don't pretend to be fast or strong but you and the sock puppet do.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> The simple Saturday ride two weeks in a row were over 3400 feet of climbing and 50 miles and I'm 75. Mt Hamilton is 5,000 feet high and you have to do 1,500 over a hump and back down to get to the start of the Hamilton climb. We consider that an easy climb since it is only about 7% for the most part.
> 
> I don't pretend to be fast or strong but you and the sock puppet do.


Cool story bro. Still don't need all those gears.


*So... where is the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.
*


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> The simple Saturday ride two weeks in a row were over 3400 feet of climbing and 50 miles and I'm 75.........


Honestly, by your posting style, I would've guessed that you were a bored 15 year old with no friends to play with.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> I was Air Force in the Vietnam War including flying combat missions. The Framework of the B52 cannot be updated or changed and if you know anything about them you'd know that. The aircraft flexes in flight and so the wing panels become twisted and need replacement. THAT IS NOT UPDATING. Over the last 10 years the skin has been replaced with carbon fiber I believe since it doesn't stretch. Again, that is NOT the framework which would require total rebuild to replace.
> 
> The B52D would get vertical stabilizer damage to the vertical stabilizer from aerodynamic forces and the tail was replaced with a shorter version. The aircraft who broke the tails off still maneuvered and returned to base.
> 
> ...


Touch a nerve, did I? You probably know more about aircraft than I do, just as I know more about bicycles and racing than you do. See how easy that was?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Touch a nerve, did I? You probably know more about aircraft than I do, just as I know more about bicycles and racing than you do. See how easy that was?


The nerve you touched is your entire lack of information about anything and your belief you do. Since I've been building bicycle since 20 mm tires were "clinchers" all I've seen from you guys is a bunch of BS. You know all about B52's like you know about tubulars. With a team of 9 riders in the 250 km Paris-Roubaix or the Tour of Flanders you don't think you'd get more than 4 flats for the entire team. I'll bet you actually think that after gluing "hundreds of tubulars".

You know, it isn't a crime to not know something. I don't want to buy all of the special tools so I have the ex-7-Eleven team mechanic install headsets and rethread bottom brackets.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> If the frames pass the _eXtreme_Roger[SUP]®[/SUP] tests, they'll be eligible to wear the coveted LBD *Roger Tested - Roger Approved*[SUP]®[/SUP]


Here everything had to be Jobst Brant tested and approved. He finally got so outrageous that I told him that when he has a bunch of new guys with him he should warn them if he was going to be descending at 30 mph and lead a group of newbies onto a dirt trail.

That dinked him off so much he published my address complete with a map. That would have been bad enough but it was the wrong address and a little old lady lived there. I lived 20 miles away.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Honestly, by your posting style, I would've guessed that you were a bored 15 year old with no friends to play with.


Honestly, by your posting style I'm quite sure you ARE a sock puppet.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> You know, it isn't a crime to not know something.


So educate us smart guy

So... where is the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

I see an orange chicklet in Tom Kunich's near future.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> I'll be - you don't know that we have three hills in the bay area taller than that? You must sure be weak if you need 11 speeds and a 32 to climb something like that. On a NORMAL Tuesday ride yesterday I did more climbing than that.
> 
> Imagine having to pick the tallest hill in the entire state of Massachusetts and pretend that you've ever ridden it.


Until this post you were simply obnoxious, just an idiot poser making ridiculous claims about everything, including rides you do... But you turned the corner and now you are an outright d!ck


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well it certainly takes a great deal of intellectual capacity to add as much to the conversation as you have. PS - you didn't explain why B52's built no later than the early 1960's are still flying after your comments about aluminum always failing.


In material science, there is something called the "endurance limit", an amount of stress which, if kept below, a metal theoretically will never fatigue. Aluminum has no endurance limit, since given enough stress cycles, is guaranteed to eventually fail. This is why aircraft landing cycles are so carefully recorded; after a certain number of cycles, the airframe is retired and the plane is scrapped. The reason why they are still flying is because a certain number of them have yet to reach that number, just as why a few DC-3's are still flying.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> The nerve you touched is your entire lack of information about anything and your belief you do. Since I've been building bicycle since 20 mm tires were "clinchers" all I've seen from you guys is a bunch of BS. You know all about B52's like you know about tubulars. With a team of 9 riders in the 250 km Paris-Roubaix or the Tour of Flanders you don't think you'd get more than 4 flats for the entire team. I'll bet you actually think that after gluing "hundreds of tubulars".
> 
> You know, it isn't a crime to not know something. I don't want to buy all of the special tools so I have the ex-7-Eleven team mechanic install headsets and rethread bottom brackets.


The only races in Europe w/ 9 rider teams were the Grand Tours before this year. They are now 8 rider teams. The 'classics' are 7 rider teams. P-R...7 rider teams. ToF...7 rider teams. 
You persist in referencing P-R for some reason. Obviously the American based women that I work for don't race it nor anything like it. P-R and Tour de Flanders are massively important and very unique races because of the pavé. Teams will bring virtually every employee they have to those races as well as every team vehicle. They will bring extra wheels to virtually every cobble section in the race. There is extra neutral support as well. With the advent of disc brakes most teams will go for a bike change rather than a wheel change if they can do it. They will probably have 8-10 wheels in/on the car plus 6 bikes.

None of the mechanics will do any tire mounting in the car. Does not happen. Team mechanics are incredibly picky about mounting tubulars and I'd be willing to be pretty much anything that the odds of a mechanic putting a tire on a wheel...in a team car...with no glue...during a race...has NEVER happened. Not once. Since you brought it up it's on you to provide the proof. Mounting new tires on new rims is a 2.5-3 day process for me. I have NEVER had a rider roll a tire that I've installed. 

Not sure what you mean by "since 20mm tires were clinchers"...it makes no sense. I know lots of guys that have been building bikes for years and years...doesn't automatically make them good mechanics. Most of them are in fact over confident, stubborn, and arrogant. They don't keep up w/ new equipment, instead thinking that the way they did things in the old days is fine. Sound familiar? Remember...it's not 'Practice makes perfect', it's 'Perfect practice makes perfect'.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Honestly, by your posting style I'm quite sure you ARE a sock puppet.


Oooooooohhhhh...you really got him w/ that one. I'll bet he's deleting his account right now and will never post again. Ouch.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

The empennage on my B-52G needs some TLC. 

Is this the right thread for this request?


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

SPlKE said:


> The empennage on my B-52G needs some TLC.
> 
> Is this the right thread for this request?


No. Your request should be posted in the Strategic Bombers subforum.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

There are areas in Europe where entire fleets of B52's all reach their endurance limit and fail all at once. A pro told me the mechanics put them back together with pre glued parts in the back of a car.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tlg said:


> There are areas in Europe where entire fleets of B52's all reach their endurance limit and fail all at once. A pro told me the mechanics put them back together with pre glued parts in the back of a car.


I tried...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tlg again.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

This was supposedly a group for bike riders. So far you have convinced me that you own a bike.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> This was supposedly a group for bike riders. So far you have convinced me that you own a bike.


It is 

So... where is the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

If you quit feeding the trolls, they go away. Unless this is the kind of person you like to converse with.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> The nerve you touched is your entire lack of information about anything and your belief you do. Since I've been building bicycle since 20 mm tires were "clinchers" all I've seen from you guys is a bunch of BS. You know all about B52's like you know about tubulars. With a team of 9 riders in the 250 km Paris-Roubaix or the Tour of Flanders you don't think you'd get more than 4 flats for the entire team. I'll bet you actually think that after gluing "hundreds of tubulars".
> 
> You know, it isn't a crime to not know something. I don't want to buy all of the special tools so I have the ex-7-Eleven team mechanic install headsets and rethread bottom brackets.


Ahh, now we're getting somewhere. The ex-7-Eleven team mechanic. The back seat tire gluer. 
Special tools to install headsets? Like a headset press and a couple of wrenches? If you built enough bikes to be even close to proficient, these tools would pay for themselves in no time. 20mm clinchers? Clinchers are clinchers regardless of the width of the tire.

Now, how about that Tour de France mass puncture event that left the entire peloton on the side of the road with flat tires? Still waiting on that link.

GO HOME DAD


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> I don't think the OP knows as much as he thinks he does about carbon bikes in particular and carbon fiber construction in general. I'm actually certain he doesn't.


Carbon fiber frames break. That isn't a question. But apparently you know better. They just had a CF fork break in the Tour of Poland 50 km from the end of the stage. Hopefully without any serious injuries to the rider.

What we need now is for you to say, "Duhhh, a fork ain't no frame."


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Carbon fiber frames break. That isn't a question. But apparently you know better. They just had a CF fork break in the Tour of Poland 50 km from the end of the stage. Hopefully without any serious injuries to the rider.
> 
> What we need now is for you to say, "Duhhh, a fork ain't no frame."


Frames break. Forks break. Carbon, Aluminum, Ti and Steel. I've seen all of those break. What's your point?

I got you on this CX. Duhhh, a fork ain't no frame. If it was it would be called a frame.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

pmf said:


> If you quit feeding the trolls, they go away. Unless this is the kind of person you like to converse with.


Have you even tried to follow this thread? I'll admit that it became difficult from the second posting but try to read it and then tell us who the trolls are and why.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I don't want to buy all of the special tools so I have the ex-7-Eleven team mechanic install headsets and rethread bottom brackets.


I have all the 'special' tools to build every bike I've ever owned. Never had to have someone else fix something.
So yea.... lecture us about how you're the expert on everything bike. 



Tom Kunich said:


> Carbon fiber frames break. That isn't a question. But apparently you know better. They just had a CF fork break in the Tour of Poland 50 km from the end of the stage. Hopefully without any serious injuries to the rider.
> 
> What we need now is for you to say, "Duhhh, a fork ain't no frame."


Cool story bro. 

So, when are you going to provide the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

202cycle said:


> Frames break. Forks break. Carbon, Aluminum, Ti and Steel. I've seen all of those break. What's your point?
> 
> I got you on this CX. Duhhh, a fork ain't no frame. If it was it would be called a frame.


Exactly why are you passing out BS? Carbon frames break often enough and catastrophically so that most people will see some failures. Aluminum frames break and almost never catastrophically - they crack a tube and start making noise and you look for something wrong. I have seen ONE Titanium frame break and it was a cracked headtube on a new bike on its first ride, I have owned three Ti bikes - all Colnagos. The cracked bike was ridden back to the dealer and replaced, I'd like to see you showing a picture of a failed high end steel bike. I'm sure that some have but it is so rare that in 30 years of riding bikes I have only seen one cheap steel bike crack a seat tube just above the bottom bracket. The owner finished the ride and bought a better steel bike.

This is not the same as a frame dissolving under you which carbon fiber frames do far too often. People with even a passing education know that a FRAMESET includes a fork just like it includes a seat tube and a down tube etc. But then you don't seem to know that.

The real question is what hill do you want to die on? The one that says that a UCI legal bike doesn't matter what material it is made from because they all weigh in at the UCI minimum? Or are you going to argue that the world's lightest CF bike is safe at 9 lbs?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> I have all the 'special' tools to build every bike I've ever owned. Never had to have someone else fix something.
> So yea.... lecture us about how you're the expert on everything bike.
> 
> Cool story bro.
> ...


I absolutely certain that you own Italian thread cleaners because they are so common and they only cost around $350. It is the same for an English thread cleaner. You aren't impressing anyone with your transparent lies.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I absolutely certain that you own Italian thread cleaners because they are so common and they only cost around $350. It is the same for an English thread cleaner. You aren't impressing anyone with your transparent lies.


Unlike you I don't have to lie and make up stories.

Thread cleaner? You mean a tap? Never needed one. And if I did, I'd go buy one or borrow from a buddy. Can get them pretty cheap. More of your BS ruined.
https://www.amazon.com/HOZAN-C-402-...ords=bottom+bracket+tap&qid=1574350710&sr=8-1

*So now why don't YOU prove YOUR blatant lie. You keep running away from it. *
When are you going to provide the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Exactly why are you passing out BS? Carbon frames beak often enough and catastrophically so that most people will see some failures. Aluminum frames break and almost never catastrophically - they crack a tube and start making noise and you look for something wrong. I have seen ONE Titanium frame break and it was a cracked headtube on a new bike on its first ride, I have owned three Ti bikes - all Colnagos. The cracked bike was ridden back to the dealer and replaced, I'd like to see you showing a picture of a failed high end steel bike. I'm sure that some have but it is so rare that in 30 years of riding bikes I have only seen one cheap steel bike crack a seat tube just above the bottom bracket. The owner finished the ride and bought a better steel bike.
> 
> This is not the same as a frame dissolving under you which carbon fiber frames to far too often. People with even a passing education know that a FRAMESET includes a fork just like it includes a seat tube and a down tube etc. But then you don't seem to know that.
> 
> The real question is what hill do you want to die on? The one that says that a UCI legal bike doesn't matter what material it is made from because they all weigh in at the UCI minimum? Or are you going to argue that the world's lightest CF bike is safe at 9 lbs?


BS? You sir are out of your mind. I have sold hundreds and hundreds of carbon bikes over the last 25 years. I handle all the warranty claims that come through my shop. I see so few broken carbon frames (or forks) and not one catastrophic failure. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it is rare and you are delusional.

Ti can fail catastrophically. I've actually seen that more often than carbon.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bro...U6FjQIHaC0ARUQ_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1309&bih=688

A frame is a frame. A fork is a component. A frameset is a frame and fork. 

No, I never argued that a 9 lb. bike was safe. Besides, a bike like that, the majority of the weight saving comes from hanging barely usable weight weeny parts on a lightweight carbon frame. A bike like that, is built to show that it can be done. 

This has been an interesting thread, but is becoming a waste of time.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Sung to the tune of a line in Born Under a Bad Sign:


♫ If it wasn't for troll threads, we wouldn't have no threads at all. ♫


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Have you even tried to follow this thread?


Oh yes indeed. I'm considering making a third bag of popcorn if things heat up again this afternoon.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

tlg said:


> Unlike you I don't have to lie and make up stories.
> 
> Thread cleaner? You mean a tap? Never needed one. And if I did, I'd go buy one or borrow from a buddy. Can get them pretty cheap. More of your BS ruined.
> https://www.amazon.com/HOZAN-C-402-...ords=bottom+bracket+tap&qid=1574350710&sr=8-1
> ...


I'll help Tom out here, as he seams to be in dire need of help.

https://theprovince.com/sports/tour-de-france-tacks

30 riders. Not 180 riders were affected by this act of sabotage. One rider crashed as a result and abandoned the Tour with a broken collarbone. Not one team lost a rider from the race because they didn't have enough wheels to go around.

Not one team mechanic replaced a tubular in the back seat to put back out on the road under one of his riders.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Please, everyone, I have a request.

Kindly put Tom Kunich on your ignore list. Thank you.


----------



## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

tlg said:


> ...
> 
> When are you going to provide the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
> Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?
> ...


Perhaps it was a typo, and what he meant to say was that an entire peloton was _on_ the flats, all at once (happens routinely in "flat" stages of road races), and that there was a team mechanic who got tubular glue all over the back of a team car while trying to glue up tires? 

(Although for that last, it'd have to be a pretty stupid team mechanic who'd even be trying _that_ stunt).


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I've ridden on the 'flats' once, how did I miss out on this !!!! OMG!


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

202cycle said:


> I'll help Tom out here, as he seams to be in dire need of help.
> 
> https://theprovince.com/sports/tour-de-france-tacks
> 
> 30 riders. Not 180 riders were affected by this act of sabotage. One rider crashed as a result and abandoned the Tour with a broken collarbone. Not one team lost a rider from the race because they didn't have enough wheels to go around.


Well sure, everyone who follows cycling remembers that. But that was the Tour de France. 
Tom said "There are areas in European races in which the entire Peloton will get flats all at once."
This implies it's a regular occurrence in "races". And if it were the Tour, surely Tom an expert in call thing cycling, would've said the Tour and not "European races".

Give that Tom has yet to address this despite numerous requests to clarify himself, it's obvious he's just full of it and can't back up his claim.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Campag...653053?hash=item41dd0036fd:g:I4YAAOSwAy5aoloI


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Campag...653053?hash=item41dd0036fd:g:I4YAAOSwAy5aoloI


That's a nice set of tools. If you buy that, you can install your own headsets and "Clean" the bottom bracket threads.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

xxl said:


> Perhaps it was a typo, and what he meant to say was that an entire peloton was _on_ the flats, all at once (happens routinely in "flat" stages of road races), and that there was a team mechanic who got tubular glue all over the back of a team car while trying to glue up tires?
> 
> (Although for that last, it'd have to be a pretty stupid team mechanic who'd even be trying _that_ stunt).


Well, I'll tell you what, since you seem convinced that no one wants President Trump simply wait for the election in 11 months and see for yourself. Trump gives a campaign speech and tens of thousands show up and thousands that can't get in the door remain outside watching the large screens put up for them. Joe Biden's campaign speech drew TWENTY-FIVE people and they were media telling us how exciting Biden is. The Democrat debates drew 200 people. Yeah, if there is one thing we can all be sure of is that Trump really didn't win.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

202cycle said:


> That's a nice set of tools. If you buy that, you can install your own headsets and "Clean" the bottom bracket threads.


I totally recondition bikes. My Basso Loto is presently in the process. You have to reface the headset and bottom bracket as well as cleaning the bottom bracket threads and being absolutely certain that they are parallel with each side since this is the single shaft crank. You also have to space the old 7 speed rear axles out to the 10 speed standard so that the wheel slips in and out properly. The threads on the fork have to be cleaned.

Bike Shops are closing all around the bay area because people aren't buying bikes because of the preposterous prices. Rather than pay $9K for a set of tools that will only see once a year use, I pay the local good shop $200 to do this stuff.

Or do you believe in screwing the local shops out of a buck so that you can prove to yourself that you can use a bottom bracket refacing tool?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, I'll tell you what, since you seem convinced that no one wants President Trump simply wait for the election in 11 months and see for yourself. Trump gives a campaign speech and tens of thousands show up and thousands that can't get in the door remain outside watching the large screens put up for them. Joe Biden's campaign speech drew TWENTY-FIVE people and they were media telling us how exciting Biden is. The Democrat debates drew 200 people. Yeah, if there is one thing we can all be sure of is that Trump really didn't win.


This isn't PO. Try and stay on topic

*So now why don't YOU prove YOUR blatant lie. You keep running away from it. *
When are you going to provide the proof of an entire peloton all getting a flat at once?
Where is the proof of a team mechanic gluing tubulars in the back of a moving car?

EVERYONE wants to know. This is fascinating. We'd all like to see it.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> I totally recondition bikes. My Basso Loto is presently in the process. You have to reface the headset and bottom bracket as well as cleaning the bottom bracket threads and being absolutely certain that they are parallel with each side since this is the single shaft crank. You also have to space the old 7 speed rear axles out to the 10 speed standard so that the wheel slips in and out properly. The threads on the fork have to be cleaned.
> 
> Bike Shops are closing all around the bay area because people aren't buying bikes because of the preposterous prices. Rather than pay $9K for a set of tools that will only see once a year use, I pay the local good shop $200 to do this stuff.
> 
> Or do you believe in screwing the local shops out of a buck so that you can prove to yourself that you can use a bottom bracket refacing tool?


I am the local shop.
Shops go out of business for a lot of reasons. The price of high end bikes is not the reason.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Tom Kunich said:


> I totally recondition bikes. My Basso Loto is presently in the process. You have to reface the headset and bottom bracket as well as cleaning the bottom bracket threads and being absolutely certain that they are parallel with each side since this is the single shaft crank. You also have to space the old 7 speed rear axles out to the 10 speed standard so that the wheel slips in and out properly. The threads on the fork have to be cleaned.
> 
> Bike Shops are closing all around the bay area because people aren't buying bikes because of the preposterous prices. Rather than pay $9K for a set of tools that will only see once a year use, I pay the local good shop $200 to do this stuff.
> 
> Or do you believe in screwing the local shops out of a buck so that you can prove to yourself that you can use a bottom bracket refacing tool?


Let me understand this, you're paying a shop to face the BB and head tube surfaces and chase the threads because you don't have those tools, but you have the tools to do the rest of the reconditioning so you're screwing the local shop out of doing the entire job.

Are you too cheap to buy the more expensive tools?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

velodog said:


> Let me understand this, you're paying a shop to face the BB and head tube surfaces and chase the threads because you don't have those tools, but you have the tools to do the rest of the reconditioning so you're screwing the local shop out of doing the entire job.
> 
> Are you too cheap to buy the more expensive tools?


Do you even know what a restoration is? From your posting you've never held a wrench in your hand.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Tom Kunich said:


> Do you even know what a restoration is? From your posting you've never held a wrench in your hand.


What's a wrench?

Are you restoring or reconditioning that bike of yours? And are you going to rebuild the wheels in the back seat of a moving vehicle, or just glue the tires on?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, I'll tell you what, since you seem convinced that no one wants President Trump simply wait for the election in 11 months and see for yourself. Trump gives a campaign speech and tens of thousands show up and thousands that can't get in the door remain outside watching the large screens put up for them. Joe Biden's campaign speech drew TWENTY-FIVE people and they were media telling us how exciting Biden is. The Democrat debates drew 200 people. Yeah, if there is one thing we can all be sure of is that Trump really didn't win.


If you want to post political stuff, go join the gang over in the Politics Only forum. Posting this here is a clear violation of forum rules.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> I totally recondition bikes. My Basso Loto is presently in the process. You have to *reface* the headset and bottom bracket as well as cleaning the bottom bracket threads and being absolutely certain that they are parallel with each side since this is the *single shaft crank*. You also have to space the old 7 speed rear axles out to the 10 speed standard so that the wheel slips in and out properly. The threads on the fork have to be cleaned.
> 
> Bike Shops are closing all around the bay area because people aren't buying bikes because of the preposterous prices. Rather than pay $9K for a set of tools that will only see once a year use, I pay the local good shop $200 to do this stuff.
> 
> Or do you believe in screwing the local shops out of a buck so that you can prove to yourself that you can use a bottom bracket *refacin*g tool?


What's 'refacing'? Is that like facing? High prices are _definitely_ not stopping people from dropping large dollars at our shop. We sell high price bikes ALL the time.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Exactly why are you passing out BS? Carbon frames break often enough and catastrophically so that most people will see some failures. Aluminum frames break and almost never catastrophically - they crack a tube and start making noise and you look for something wrong. I have seen ONE Titanium frame break and it was a cracked headtube on a new bike on its first ride, I have owned three Ti bikes - all Colnagos. The cracked bike was ridden back to the dealer and replaced, I'd like to see you showing a picture of a failed high end steel bike. I'm sure that some have but it is so rare that in 30 years of riding bikes I have only seen one cheap steel bike crack a seat tube just above the bottom bracket. The owner finished the ride and bought a better steel bike.
> 
> *This is not the same as a frame dissolving under you which carbon fiber frames do* far too often. People with even a passing education know that a FRAMESET includes a fork just like it includes a seat tube and a down tube etc. But then you don't seem to know that.
> 
> The real question is what hill do you want to die on? The one that says that a UCI legal bike doesn't matter what material it is made from because they all weigh in at the UCI minimum? Or are you going to argue that the world's lightest CF bike is safe at 9 lbs?


Dissolve?!? You've posted a ton of crap but this is just lunacy.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

202cycle said:


> BS? You sir are out of your mind. I have sold hundreds and hundreds of carbon bikes over the last 25 years. I handle all the warranty claims that come through my shop. I see so few broken carbon frames (or forks) and not one catastrophic failure. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it is rare and you are delusional.
> 
> Ti can fail catastrophically. I've actually seen that more often than carbon.
> https://www.google.com/search?q=bro...U6FjQIHaC0ARUQ_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1309&bih=688
> ...


Well, seeing is believing. I will grant you that the ultralight Ti frames can break catastrophically. But I have seen a LOT of catastrophic failures of carbon fiber frames or forks. The almost fatal failure of my fork was mistaken construction so I don't count that. Just one friend had three cf failures though as you say, in his case they were not catastrophic failures. But other were such as the attachment.








It has been my belief that the failures usually occur on older cf bike constructed as if they wee steel tube bikes. The new cf bikes use much better engineering principles which spread the forces over a greater area and in the proper directions.

But you also remember that you are a snapshot on a large marketplace and it you don't have frame failures doesn't mean the cf is forever safe. I find it odd the way that Pro bikes fail. Usually without warning and not in the places you would expect.

If you look at the Titanium failures you can see that most of them are faulty welds since inert gas welding can sometimes run out of gas without your realizing it. But there was that one case where it was nowhere near a weld and the crack did not appear to be running in a direction that would lead you to believe that it was a Vanadium Alloy which are usually rolled and welded rather than extruded. Perhaps overheating?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Dissolve?!? You've posted a ton of crap but this is just lunacy.


Did't you know carbon dissolves as often as entire pelotons getting flats all at once. (Which of course is... never)


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> It has been my belief that the failures usually occur on older cf bike constructed as if they wee steel tube bikes.


Your beliefs are ignorant. Carbon bikes aren't welded. They are in no way constructed like a steel bike. NO WAY.




> The new cf bikes use much better engineering principles which spread the forces over a greater area and in the proper directions.


Leave the engineering speak for mechanical engineers, not electrical engineers. You're clueless.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> If you want to post political stuff, go join the gang over in the Politics Only forum. Posting this here is a clear violation of forum rules.


I would very much like to see no politics at all but that includes pictures of Trump and off-handed insulting comments by others. Aiming that at me alone is also a clear violation of the rules.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

tlg said:


> Your beliefs are ignorant. Carbon bikes aren't welded. They are in no way constructed like a steel bike. NO WAY.
> 
> 
> Leave the engineering speak for mechanical engineers, not electrical engineers. You're clueless.


Before answering anything it is normal to actually understand what you're reading. Perhaps English is your second language?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

202cycle said:


> I'll help Tom out here, as he seams to be in dire need of help.
> 
> https://theprovince.com/sports/tour-de-france-tacks
> 
> ...


When I went to the Tour de France for Lance's 5th win and was walking up Le Alpe d'Huez, the fans would wait for their favorite to come by and then break beer or whiskey bottles on the road. Apparently that is tradition since the cops leading the pack didn't do a thing.

Paris-Roubaix is famous for the lucky guys winning - most of the pack flats and others crash. Those cobblestone roads aren't driven on normally like the ones in the Tour of Flanders, so they have all of the cracks washed clean and the cobbles all have sharp edges.

But this doesn't answer why cxwrench doesn't know that when you train with tubulars you carry spare tubulars that have been used and glued before. If you get a flat, you pull the flat off. There's still glue on the rim and there's still glue on the used spare. You pull them on, inflate and off you go. You have to be careful for the first 10 minutes or so as the glue warms up and adheres to both surfaces and then you can ride normally. Though I forget how often you ended up scraping off the rims and gluing on new tubulars. I HATED cutting the sewups apart and patching the tubes and resewing them again. And being a yachtsman I was pretty good with a needle and palm.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Before answering anything it is normal to actually understand what you're reading. Perhaps English is your second language?


I understand his posts perfectly.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> What's 'refacing'? Is that like facing? High prices are _definitely_ not stopping people from dropping large dollars at our shop. We sell high price bikes ALL the time.


If you don't know the difference between facing and refacing I can't help you.

I see a LOT of high end bikes but they seem to be being sold either from Specialized or Trek shops or over the Internet. We had a LOT of bike shops go out of business. My local mechanic that I prefer sells a dozen different brands but his sales are very slow and he depends a great deal on his mechanic work. He was a team mechanic for 7-Eleven so I assumed that he was brought in by Bob Roll who comes from Berkeley. Right up the road a way.

If you're selling top end bikes more power to you but I can go to 5 different bike shops within 20 mikes from me and most of them don't even bother to stock top end bikes anymore. They sell so slowly that they're out of date before they have interest.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)




----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

At this particular point in time, can somebody net out for me what we've learned thus far in this thread?

My take: Steel? Real! Totally.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

SPlKE said:


> At this particular point in time, can somebody net out for me what we've learned thus far in this thread?
> 
> My take: Steel? Real! Totally.


Pay attention. It's obvious. You can assemble a carbon frame with steel construction techniques, as long as you pre glue it in the back of a moving car. Just don't do it in a Pelton or you'll get a flat.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> I would very much like to see no politics at all but that includes pictures of Trump and off-handed insulting comments by others. Aiming that at me alone is also a clear violation of the rules.


Having a political avatar or auto signature is _*not*_ against forum rules. Posting political stuff anywhere other than P.O. _*is*_ against forum rules.

And it is YOU who started being combative before anyone else here did. Do you need to be reminded of this:




Tom Kunich said:


> Let me see if I understand you correctly you think that I should give my street creds to a man who has a puppet as his ID and another who uses an emoji? Should I ask if you're old enough to use mommy's laptop?


Coolhand?


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Tom Kunich said:


> If you don't know the difference between facing and refacing I can't help you.
> 
> I see a LOT of high end bikes but they seem to be being sold either from Specialized or Trek shops or over the Internet. We had a LOT of bike shops go out of business. My local mechanic that I prefer sells a dozen different brands but his sales are very slow and he depends a great deal on his mechanic work. He was a team mechanic for 7-Eleven so I assumed that he was brought in by Bob Roll who comes from Berkeley. Right up the road a way.
> 
> If you're selling top end bikes more power to you but I can go to 5 different bike shops within 20 mikes from me and most of them don't even bother to stock top end bikes anymore. They sell so slowly that they're out of date before they have interest.


The shop I worked in Reston, VA also sold very few bikes over $2500. in price. So we had to sell real jewels for 10% above cost or practically give them away. Nice carbon Dura Ace models priced $5000. and up would sit in the rack collecting dust for several years. We'd sell them at a loss to get rid of them, crying every time.

I'm sure markets vary widely. Two shops in Georgetown sell the good stuff and they've always done great.

Some of the steel frames came years ago with unfaced BB shells. I've changed out quite a few BBs and noticed to my dismay plenty of un-faced shells on the cheaper models. They'd be flexible riding and would come apart. So we always faced the shells, It made all the difference. 

Don't know how they do it with carbon or aluminum. Steel is real. I've never worn out a properly faced shell on a steel frame using standard threaded 68 or 70mm threaded BB. They're solid and last forever.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, I'll tell you what, since you seem convinced that no one wants President Trump simply wait for the election in 11 months and see for yourself. Trump gives a campaign speech and tens of thousands show up and thousands that can't get in the door remain outside watching the large screens put up for them. Joe Biden's campaign speech drew TWENTY-FIVE people and they were media telling us how exciting Biden is. The Democrat debates drew 200 people. Yeah, if there is one thing we can all be sure of is that Trump really didn't win.


What is with all the political rambling in GD? This is not cool.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> The shop I worked in Reston, VA also sold very few bikes over $2500. in price. So we had to sell real jewels for 10% above cost or practically give them away. Nice carbon Dura Ace models priced $5000. and up would sit in the rack collecting dust for several years. We'd sell them at a loss to get rid of them, crying every time.
> 
> I'm sure markets vary widely. Two shops in Georgetown sell the good stuff and they've always done great.
> 
> ...


Fred! I referenced you several posts back, when we were discussing climbs, east coast vs. west coast. I mentioned that the OP should talk to you about climbs up Mount Wilson.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

tlg said:


> Pay attention. It's obvious. You can assemble a carbon frame with steel construction techniques, as long as you pre glue it in the back of a moving car. Just don't do it in a Pelton or you'll get a flat.


tlg, I love you like a cheeseburger. But watch the microaggressions about me not paying attention and whatnot. I'm already quasi-pre-triggered.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> Your beliefs are ignorant. Carbon bikes aren't welded. They are in no way constructed like a steel bike.


He's referring to early carbon frames *glued* together with lugs using the same diameter tubes as steel. Like the Giant Cadex. Colnago and DeRosa still use internal lugs, hear tell, so they can offer more sizes than monocoque frames. The closest thing in steel would be lugless tig welded frames.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> Fred! I referenced you several posts back, when we were discussing climbs, east coast vs. west coast. I mentioned that the OP should talk to you about climbs up Mount Wilson.


Yeah, 22 miles on Mt. Wilson is not that bad a climb until the last 5 miles at the top. The Appalachians aren't as high as the Rockies or Mt. Wilson, but man, those roads have some steep grades. Nobody in their right mind would attack Mt. Wilson with 44-22 lowest gear. Yours truly, at the tender age of 43, did, however, and made it. Twice. So there. Riders have gotten soft. I'd have trouble staying upright in a 1:1 gear. I don't know how you guys do it.

This is obviously a far ranging thread dealing with matters important to posters. :yesnod: 

I HAVE "refaced" steel BB shells, however, that is, used the facing tool on already faced BBs that possibly got dinged up when the original BB was installed, had loosened up very slightly when riding, or in any case had irregular surfaces. 

CX probably doesn't encounter these bikes in his high end shop. :idea: Carbon may have rendered facing a lost art.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

SPlKE said:


> You want to hear some gnarly climb stories? Ask Frederico about Mount Wilson.


Hey man, on the trusty Columbus SL frame with SLX seat tube, it was a piece of cake. I even enjoyed the hell out of the descent! :thumbsup:


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Yeah, 22 miles on Mt. Wilson is not that bad a climb until the last 5 miles at the top. The Appalachians aren't as high as the Rockies or Mt. Wilson, but man, those roads have some steep grades. Nobody in their right mind would attack Mt. Wilson with 44-22 lowest gear. Yours truly, at the tender age of 43, did, however, and made it. Twice. So there. Riders have gotten soft. I'd have trouble staying upright in a 1:1 gear. I don't know how you guys do it.
> 
> This is obviously a far ranging thread dealing with matters important to posters. :yesnod:
> 
> ...


Not much these days but I remember facing and chasing the frame on nearly every bike we built back in the 90's. I even remember sending the bb taps in to get sharpened. Or should I say 'resharpened'?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Fredrico said:


> Hey man, on the trusty Columbus SL frame with SLX seat tube, it was a piece of cake. I even enjoyed the hell out of the descent! :thumbsup:


SL? That stuff is light...I had a TSX De Rosa. They _added_ material to those tubes! Talk about heavy:yikes:


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SPlKE said:


> Fred! I referenced you several posts back, when we were discussing climbs, east coast vs. west coast. I mentioned that the OP should talk to you about climbs up Mount Wilson.


You making a stew, or just stirring the pot?


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

velodog said:


> You making a stew, or just stirring the pot?


Bored outta my gourd upgrading a bunch of AD stuff in AWS and Azure.

So yes. Yes I am. Stirring the stew.

See also: Pitbull Pedal thread.


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

SPlKE said:


> I'm already quasi-pre-triggered.


We're just getting over a spate of apostrophe abuse and now we have to deal with hyphen abuse?!?!? You better prepare for the grammar hammer.


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm ah ... going t'a stay out'a this one.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> Bored outta my gourd upgrading a bunch of AD stuff in AWS and Azure.
> 
> So yes. Yes I am. Stirring the stew.
> 
> See also: Pitbull Pedal thread.


The Pitbull Pedal thread is getting old. This one is more fun.

Say, which one of you hit Tom Kunich with negative rep? Was that you CX? 

Now time to make more popcorn.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> The Pitbull Pedal thread is getting old. This one is more fun.
> 
> Say, which one of you hit Tom Kunich with negative rep? Was that you CX?
> 
> Now time to make more popcorn.


I never neg-rep anybody. I think to myself, what if that person decides to run for president? Do I want a neg-rep hanging over his or her head? Nosir.

I agree about pitbull getting stale.

We need somebody to come along with another revolutionary new bicycle product, one that changes everything, one that will obsolete old fashioned things like chains, seats, handlebars, pedals, etc. Fresh meat, that's what we need.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> He's referring to early carbon frames *glued* together with lugs using the same diameter tubes as steel. Like the Giant Cadex. Colnago and DeRosa still use internal lugs, hear tell, so they can offer more sizes than monocoque frames. The closest thing in steel would be lugless tig welded frames.


The Colnagos use external lugs and still do even on the C62 to this day. It isn't clear to me why they do it since their C series hat were made in Taiwan used a very high level of engineering that included the fairing into other tubes which spreads the loads over a much greater area and hence reduce any local loads. 

When people talk about poor Chinese components they clearly do not know anything about it and do not know that their best engineers have attended the greatest universities in the world. Before WW II the Japanese had the best engineering there was at the time. Today the Chinese are much the same though government military contracts retain as good American engineering.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Dissolve?!? You've posted a ton of crap but this is just lunacy.


That is what as known as an "exaggeration for effect". I continue to wonder why I was reading large classic novels in the third grade and people today cannot understand them in high school. Mark Twain, Jack London and the like were common fare in the third grade. Since that was a common technique then why is it that you could not understand that in this day and age?


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Having a political avatar or auto signature is _*not*_ against forum rules. Posting political stuff anywhere other than P.O. _*is*_ against forum rules.
> 
> And it is YOU who started being combative before anyone else here did. Do you need to be reminded of this:
> 
> ...


Having a political avatar and a tag line is political speech.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> What is with all the political rambling in GD? This is not cool.


You and I may have disagreements about bicycle things but we agree on that sort of thing. He doesn't use that Avatar and tagline because he wants to talk about bicycle related anything - that is a political statement clear as a bell.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> You and I may have disagreements about bicycle things but we agree on that sort of thing. He doesn't use that Avatar and tagline because he wants to talk about bicycle related anything - that is a political statement clear as a bell.


He also happens to be the moderator of Politics Only.

Whether you agree or not, it is not against forum rules to have a political avatar or auto signature, but it IS against forum rules to post political stuff anywhere other than Politics Only.

What you think and what is reality are two very different things.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Lombard said:


> He also happens to be the moderator of Politics Only.
> 
> Whether you agree or not, it is not against forum rules to have a political avatar or auto signature, but it IS against forum rules to post political stuff anywhere other than Politics Only.
> 
> What you think and what is reality are two very different things.


Then if he the moderator of the politics only and it is not against the rules for him to make political speech this is not the site for me. Obviously you will be happy with my removal.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Then if he the moderator of the politics only and it is not against the rules for him to make political speech this is not the site for me. Obviously you will be happy with my removal.


Bye .


----------



## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, I'll tell you what, since you seem convinced that no one wants President Trump simply wait for the election in 11 months and see for yourself. Trump gives a campaign speech and tens of thousands show up and thousands that can't get in the door remain outside watching the large screens put up for them. Joe Biden's campaign speech drew TWENTY-FIVE people and they were media telling us how exciting Biden is. The Democrat debates drew 200 people. Yeah, if there is one thing we can all be sure of is that Trump really didn't win.


Hey, here _I_ was, trying to _help_ you out, offering possible alternative explanations for your earlier bone-headed posts, and _this_ is how you repay my kindness?

Words hurt, you know.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Then if he the moderator of the politics only and it is not against the rules for him to make political speech this is not the site for me. Obviously you will be happy with my removal.


I’m pretty sure this isn’t the site for you. Maybe there’s a forum somewhere for calling the moon the sun.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Lombard said:


> The Pitbull Pedal thread is getting old. This one is more fun.
> 
> Say, which one of you hit Tom Kunich with negative rep? Was that you CX?
> 
> Now time to make more popcorn.


It wasn’t CX. 🍻


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> You and I may have disagreements about bicycle things but we agree on that sort of thing. He doesn't use that Avatar and tagline because he wants to talk about bicycle related anything - that is a political statement clear as a bell.


xxl didn't post ANYTHING that had to do w/ politics. YOU on the other hand posted:

"_Well, I'll tell you what, since you seem convinced that no one wants President Trump simply wait for the election in 11 months and see for yourself. Trump gives a campaign speech and tens of thousands show up and thousands that can't get in the door remain outside watching the large screens put up for them. Joe Biden's campaign speech drew TWENTY-FIVE people and they were media telling us how exciting Biden is. The Democrat debates drew 200 people. Yeah, if there is one thing we can all be sure of is that Trump really didn't win._"

That does not belong in GD. I don't think I could agree w/ you about anything.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

202cycle said:


> It wasn’t CX. 🍻


You did it too? :thumbsup:


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> That is what as known as an "exaggeration for effect". I continue to wonder why I was reading large classic novels in the third grade and people today cannot understand them in high school. Mark Twain, Jack London and the like were common fare in the third grade. Since that was a common technique then why is it that you could not understand that in this day and age?


Whatever. You made a post, you chose to use 'dissolve' knowing full well it was not the correct word nor even close. You exaggerate a ton. Like the 'whole peloton flatted'. Guess what I'm reading right now?


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> You did it too? :thumbsup:


Damn right I did. Shop guys are subject to certain liability. If I told someone they could ride a basically unglued tubular, I’d lose my shop in the lawsuit after they crashed. Tom is saying things that could be dangerous to someone if they believed him. He can do whatever he wants, but repeatedly spewing that BS earned him that chiclet.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

SPlKE said:


> Fred! I referenced you several posts back, when we were discussing climbs, east coast vs. west coast. I mentioned that the OP should talk to you about climbs up Mount Wilson.


Is Fred REALLY his name, or just a descriptor?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Tom Kunich said:


> Then if he the moderator of the politics only and it is not against the rules for him to make political speech this is not the site for me. Obviously you will be happy with my removal.


I doubt we'll miss you. I'm running out of popcorn anyway. 
Apparently you have plenty of other places where you regularly troll:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tom...69i61j69i60.6592j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## tfinator (Nov 4, 2009)

Wow. This was great work. Reading this on my phone got me through four poops and even a few minutes before going to sleep. A+ work RBR, you never disappoint

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Is Fred REALLY his name, or just a descriptor?


A descriptor, No Time. :yesnod:

The name is an Americanization of Federico Fellini, one of my all time heroes. I modeled my life after "La Dolce Vita," but, like Marcello, failed spectacularly. Went to Hollywood to make films, but ended up with two bike rides up Mt. Wilson instead. I still ride the same bike with the 42 ring back on it. Hollywood will forever remain a failed dream.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> A descriptor, No Time. :yesnod:
> 
> The name is an Americanization of Federico Fellini, one of my all time heroes. I modeled my life after "La Dolce Vita," but, like Marcello, failed spectacularly. Went to Hollywood to make films, but ended up with two bike rides up Mt. Wilson instead. I still ride the same bike with the 42 ring back on it. Hollywood will forever remain a failed dream.


Thanks Fred!

```

```
Doubters! Am I right or am I right?

Mount Wilson says BAM! emmereffers.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Tom Kunich said:


> The Colnagos use external lugs and still do even on the C62 to this day. It isn't clear to me why they do it since their C series hat were made in Taiwan used a very high level of engineering that included the fairing into other tubes which spreads the loads over a much greater area and hence reduce any local loads.
> 
> When people talk about poor Chinese components they clearly do not know anything about it and do not know that their best engineers have attended the greatest universities in the world. Before WW II the Japanese had the best engineering there was at the time. Today the Chinese are much the same though government military contracts retain as good American engineering.


Yep, external lugs. How about that? Ernesto knows when something works really great, stick with it and win world fame. External lugs hold the frame steady while the tubes can be slim and absorb shocks nicely. Stiff at the joints, resilient in the tubes. Calfee uses the same techniques. No plastic shock absorbers glued in, just straight, natural, seamless steel [or carbon].

Well, I guess you're on point portraying Chinese engineers as clever as the Sony and Toyota guys a few decades ago. The Chinese have always been creative with "Western technology," ever since steamship days. Trouble is, they always seem to cut corners, to get a little more bang for the buck. 

The desk I'm sitting at looked really spiffy out of the box, but 5 years later the paper thin wood laminate is separating and wearing off in the spots I put stuff on; the trim has separated so many times, it's now duct taped; the slide-out keyboard shelf is drooping. Underneath the laminate it's fiberboard, so the only repair would be pasting another laminate over the top. 

Had to put a bigger switch on the desk top lamp. Its base is so short it has to sit up on a box to get a good spread of light. The original switch in the base lasted about a year. The spring broke. Another lamp came with a little twist grip switch on top that lasted about two years. It couldn't handle the electrical current or heat from the bulb, or provide enough grip for the fingers to turn it on or off. So put a more substantial switch on it with a heat absorbing porcelain socket, and had to wrap a zip-tie around it to make it turn. I mean, come on, if the switch has a wimpy grip, make it larger.

The Sansom flip phone I carry on bike rides has worked great for years electronically, but the buttons have split, the numbers are hard to read, and it finally flipped open being dropped one too many times. I'd say a result of insufficient engineering, using materials that didn't hold up under use. 

Three small examples. 

And then there's the legacy of cars made in Detroit in the '70s. The Americans can do it when they try, but the Germans and Japanese have higher standards. Now that China has more millionaires than the US, they can afford to squander on R&D and also turn out some nice stuff, huh?


----------



## exracer (Jun 6, 2005)

[QUOTESo what we're presently seeing in cycling is probably a very bad trend - lightest weight possible which is similar to the latest trend in components which are the largest number of speeds possible. This will cause little more than headaches for the sports/recreational rider. Though some trends are good (tubeless tires) most of the others are not, More speeds means narrower cogs and rings, higher ratio differences with 11-32 cogsets for hard Tour stages and derailleurs now so weak that picking up a rock or wire into your rear derailleur can end your ride. It makes you yearn for the old days of 8 speeds when you could have a gear for every purpose without having to shift two or three times every time you are changing terrain. So maybe manufacturers should be building bikes more for the actual use of a rider rather than getting them to play at racing rather than buying a bike that actually serves a purpose. This is fine for kids but I have ridden in a lot of areas and what I'm seeing is that riders tend to be in the mid 30's and later. Racers are very few but people trying to keep up with them are far too plentiful. And here I am now in the higher age group and most of my riding buddies are dead or having extreme health problems.

I have a good day when I do a metric and average 15 mph. And yet when I did a very large metric with about 2,000 riders in it when I crossed the line I was told that I was the 182nd finisher. And several hundred of the Century riders started an hour before me! Does this sound like people should be worried about maximum performance and only using the lightest and most expensive bikes made? You could get a high quality high quantity manufactured bike made of steel with top line components on it for $2,500 or less vs a $13,000 carbon fiber wonder. If you are in your mid to late 30's that $10,000 in your retirement account can made a huge difference to having a longer and more comfortable retirement on your original bike![/QUOTE]

Much blather about nothing. more opinion that actual fact. The whole spew nonsense about weight weenie crap has been long over. Weights on major components have come down by small percentages with each new group but haven't changed drastically in 15 yrs at least. Most companies are no longer pushing the weight limits on every single component they produce. You will always have companies that will build uber light brakes or pedals or wheelsets. Speedplay and their $600 (at one time. don't know if they still make the them) ultralight titanium pedals. Less weight = more $$$$$ and they are now playing to the bigger audience.

From your other posts we've learned your an engineer or so you claim and yet you say that you have never changed your cables except when you have changed components. You do know that cables stretch? and can fray? Just FYI. Also a "good" steel frame (Independent Fab for example) these days will cost $2k+.

You live in the bay area and yet you bash others when they have talked a climbing. The bay area? Really? You live someplace with a bunch of foothills. While the climbs can be steep the are also generally short. 

And you are 75. Well if you have been cycling for any length of time, you would have known that your opening statement was 95% misconceptions and misstatements.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

exracer said:


> [QUOTESo what we're presently seeing in cycling is probably a very bad trend - lightest weight possible which is similar to the latest trend in components which are the largest number of speeds possible. This will cause little more than headaches for the sports/recreational rider. Though some trends are good (tubeless tires) most of the others are not, More speeds means narrower cogs and rings, higher ratio differences with 11-32 cogsets for hard Tour stages and derailleurs now so weak that picking up a rock or wire into your rear derailleur can end your ride. It makes you yearn for the old days of 8 speeds when you could have a gear for every purpose without having to shift two or three times every time you are changing terrain. So maybe manufacturers should be building bikes more for the actual use of a rider rather than getting them to play at racing rather than buying a bike that actually serves a purpose. This is fine for kids but I have ridden in a lot of areas and what I'm seeing is that riders tend to be in the mid 30's and later. Racers are very few but people trying to keep up with them are far too plentiful. And here I am now in the higher age group and most of my riding buddies are dead or having extreme health problems.
> 
> I have a good day when I do a metric and average 15 mph. And yet when I did a very large metric with about 2,000 riders in it when I crossed the line I was told that I was the 182nd finisher. And several hundred of the Century riders started an hour before me! Does this sound like people should be worried about maximum performance and only using the lightest and most expensive bikes made? You could get a high quality high quantity manufactured bike made of steel with top line components on it for $2,500 or less vs a $13,000 carbon fiber wonder. If you are in your mid to late 30's that $10,000 in your retirement account can made a huge difference to having a longer and more comfortable retirement on your original bike!


Much blather about nothing. more opinion that actual fact. The whole spew nonsense about weight weenie crap has been long over. Weights on major components have come down by small percentages with each new group but haven't changed drastically in 15 yrs at least. Most companies are no longer pushing the weight limits on every single component they produce. You will always have companies that will build uber light brakes or pedals or wheelsets. Speedplay and their $600 (at one time. don't know if they still make the them) ultralight titanium pedals. Less weight = more $$$$$ and they are now playing to the bigger audience.

From your other posts we've learned your an engineer or so you claim and yet you say that you have never changed your cables except when you have changed components. *You do know that cables stretch?* and can fray? Just FYI. Also a "good" steel frame (Independent Fab for example) these days will cost $2k+.

You live in the bay area and yet you bash others when they have talked a climbing. The bay area? Really? You live someplace with a bunch of foothills. While the climbs can be steep the are also generally short. 

And you are 75. Well if you have been cycling for any length of time, you would have known that your opening statement was 95% misconceptions and misstatements.[/QUOTE]

I agree w/ most of your post but cables do NOT stretch.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

I think he's gone. He started posting after 2 years of being away. Hopefully it will be at least another 2 years before we see him again.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Lombard said:


> I think he's gone. He started posting after 2 years of being away. Hopefully it will be at least another 2 years before we see him again.


He found the Down is Up/Up is Down Forum. They'll love him over there.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

exracer said:


> > So what we're presently seeing in cycling is probably a very bad trend - lightest weight possible which is similar to the latest trend in components which are the largest number of speeds possible. This will cause little more than headaches for the sports/recreational rider. Though some trends are good (tubeless tires) most of the others are not, More speeds means narrower cogs and rings, higher ratio differences with 11-32 cogsets for hard Tour stages and derailleurs now so weak that picking up a rock or wire into your rear derailleur can end your ride. It makes you yearn for the old days of 8 speeds when you could have a gear for every purpose without having to shift two or three times every time you are changing terrain. So maybe manufacturers should be building bikes more for the actual use of a rider rather than getting them to play at racing rather than buying a bike that actually serves a purpose. This is fine for kids but I have ridden in a lot of areas and what I'm seeing is that riders tend to be in the mid 30's and later. Racers are very few but people trying to keep up with them are far too plentiful. And here I am now in the higher age group and most of my riding buddies are dead or having extreme health problems.
> >
> > I have a good day when I do a metric and average 15 mph. And yet when I did a very large metric with about 2,000 riders in it when I crossed the line I was told that I was the 182nd finisher. And several hundred of the Century riders started an hour before me! Does this sound like people should be worried about maximum performance and only using the lightest and most expensive bikes made? You could get a high quality high quantity manufactured bike made of steel with top line components on it for $2,500 or less vs a $13,000 carbon fiber wonder. If you are in your mid to late 30's that $10,000 in your retirement account can made a huge difference to having a longer and more comfortable retirement on your original bike!
> 
> ...


tl;dr


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

What happened to Mr Know it all/Done it all? Did he give up or get a vacation?


----------



## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

He is posting on usenet again (about electronic shifting).


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> What happened to Mr Know it all/Done it all? Did he give up or get a vacation?


I think he was butt hurt when you hit him with negative rep.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> What happened to Mr Know it all/Done it all? Did he give up or get a vacation?


Last I heard he was scouring Youtube trying to find evidence of an entire peloton getting flats all at once.


----------



## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Got Time said:


> He is posting on usenet again (about electronic shifting).


They still refer to it as "electrically actuated shifting" on usenet.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Usenet still exists? Is it all elderly crackpots now?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Usenet still exists? Is it all elderly crackpots now?


I never used it on old days...someone post a link, I want to check it out. Could be good entertainment.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Well, the old man has some great points. Steel is real. Carbon is plastic. The whole reason behind gravel bikes is to retrieve a market for strong bikes that reliably go the distance, hold up to abuse, and don't split apart in a crash and leave rider stranded in the middle of nowhere.

10 speeds is nuts, 11, 12 even more insane. So builders go to one chainring--back to 10 speed bikes! And long cage derailleurs that bend up about twice as fast as short cage derailleurs. Those skinny 10-11 speed cogs wear out twice as fast as the old 6-8 speeds. The thin chains separate more readily and you have to use a special link, the one that always breaks, instead of just popping in normal links with a chain tool. Friction shifting is much simpler, trouble free, fast and easy on 6-8 speed gear clusters. The cables are nice and short, so the shifts are fast and stiff. 

I don't care what the magazines tell us, put on a 28mm, 32mm or 40mm tire on your go everywhere road bike and you won't go as fast and sprightly as on 25mm tires. 

Steel is cheap and easy to work with, so a great steel frame costs 1/3rd or less that of the latest carbon wonders.

Its telling, gravel bikes are the thing. They're a return to practical bikes most riders want, and won't cost as much as a late model used car. I paid a whopping $1400 for my '84 DeRosa Professional, the exact same frame ridden by Eddy Merckx, the one he copied in his original bikes. It has at least 75,000 miles on it, crashed more times than I can count, and still rides the same as it did in '84. I could put 28mm tires on it, hell, ride it on 25mm tires, and go on hard packed dirt roads just fine. Cinelli Campione Del Mondo bars bend, but have never seen any break in a crash. 

The trusty Silca floor pump still works 35 years later, while all the others lasted about three years. The new owners resurfaced the frame fit Imperio, same pump with a slightly upgraded head, not quite as bullet proof than the original head offered by Campy.

Who needs 10-11-12 gears in back? 6 or 7 will do it, 8 speeds a luxury. Hardly ever see riders on their big inner cogs. They're riding those sub 17# carbon wonders out on the middle cogs, the 17, 16, 15, 14, on those wimpy 36 tooth chain rings. The difference in shifting is, like he said, let the legs adjust cadence. Larger shifts teach the legs to spin nicely on the downshifts and build strength on the upshifts. I find myself shifting all the time, often across two or three gears, on 10 speeds. The really small jumps are great on the flats, except I like to stay in one gear and let the legs and grade determine speed. The shifts from 52 to 39 are bad enough, even worse jumping down to the 36 or 34. Best shifts are no more than 10 tooth jumps; 52-42 is great; 53-44 even better. Bigger cogs have more teeth and don't wear out as fast as smaller cogs.

36 or 32 cross 3 spoking builds reliable, bullet proof wheels that last for years. When the rims get scored from braking, I've replace them on the old hubs and probably also the old spokes if I'd tensioned them evenly around the rim. I've done this 4 or 5 times and never broken a spoke.

For the riding I've had available, only ever needed two bikes, one with fenders, 28mm tires and a 28t freewheel, for commuting and bad weather, the other the DeRosa "race bike." Aside from the one time I caught a coat hanger in the derailleur and bent the derailleur boss, I've always made it home after a crash.

Ah, clipless pedals! I can ride rat traps, clips, and straps, with cleated cycling shoes or tennis shoes, no problem. My feet don't come off the pedals but I can pull out in a second and put my foot on the ground, no twisting the foot disrupting balance. Keirin trackies and Greg LeMond still used toe clips and straps after clipless became the fashion, finding they provided a stiffer platform when racing hard.

Then there's threaded cup and cone BBs and wheel bearings, entirely serviceable; they don't loosen up, and last forever. I would have trouble finding a new bike with all the features of my old steel bikes from the '80s. Gravel bikes come closest. Who woulda known? What goes around comes around. 

That $1400 was the best investment I've ever made. Campy Super Record, too, top of the line. Then again, no reason to be snotty. Some riders like to stick with what suits them. Others like to experiment with the latest trick stuff. I could never afford it and sure can't now. I wouldn't want to ride an 18 year old carbon bike, that's for sure and would have to win the lottery to afford a spiffy new Pinarello. So forget it. 

It's not the bike. It's the legs. I have no handicap except advanced age. Quality steel and cup and cone bearings make up for it.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Well, the old man has some great points.
> 
> 10 speeds is nuts, 11, 12 even more insane.


Bwahahahahaha :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Good job throwing the old man under the bus! The old many you're attempting to apologize for rides a 10 speed. Too F'n funny.

This whole "x" number of gears in enough argument is just stupid. Why do you need 6 speeds? 5 was enough. What do you need 3 speeds? 1 was enough when they started the Tour de France. 
So unless you're riding a single speed, you should just STFU and HTFU because you're guilty of your own hypocrisy.



> And long cage derailleurs that bend up about twice as fast as short cage derailleurs.


 You're just making stuff up. I've never had a derailleur 'bend up". Long or short. 



> The thin chains separate more readily and you have to use a special link, the one that always breaks, instead of just popping in normal links with a chain tool.


Been using 'special' links since 8 speed. Never has one break. (and I reuse them too )



> Who needs 10-11-12 gears in back? 6 or 7 will do it, 8 speeds a luxury. Hardly ever see riders on their big inner cogs. They're riding those sub 17# carbon wonders out on the middle cogs, the 17, 16, 15, 14, on those wimpy 36 tooth chain rings. The difference in shifting is, like he said, let the legs adjust cadence.


Who needs 6 or 7? You should be riding a single speed. 6 or 7 is a luxury. 
I have a riding buddy who's 68yro. He rides a fixie. Last week he did a ride on it with 70ft/mi. You must be a pu$$y with those 6 gears.





> It's not the bike. It's the legs. I have no handicap except advanced age.


Which is utter bull$#it proven by the fact that you don't ride a single speed. Or a 3 speed. Apparently your legs aren't enough.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Bwahahahahaha :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> Good job throwing the old man under the bus! The old many you're attempting to apologize for rides a 10 speed. Too F'n funny.
> 
> This whole "x" number of gears in enough argument is just stupid. Why do you need 6 speeds? 5 was enough. What do you need 3 speeds? 1 was enough when they started the Tour de France.
> ...


Who needs gears? And for that matter, who needs safety bikes, penny farthings were good enough! :idea: No chains, cassettes or cranksets to wear out! :thumbsup:


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Who needs gears? And for that matter, who needs safety bikes, penny farthings were good enough! :idea: No chains, cassettes or cranksets to wear out! :thumbsup:


Who even needs a bike? Just walk, ya pantywaist!


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> Bwahahahahaha :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> Good job throwing the old man under the bus! The old many you're attempting to apologize for rides a 10 speed. Too F'n funny.
> 
> This whole "x" number of gears in enough argument is just stupid. Why do you need 6 speeds? 5 was enough. What do you need 3 speeds? 1 was enough when they started the Tour de France.
> ...


Hey, 42-22 may as well be single speed! I'm in it all the time! Yep, another 9 gears are like overdrive! When conditions are favorable. 

The thing about all these gears is style. You wanna pedal at the same leg speed all the time? Have short jumps between gears. You wanna vary leg speed, like your fixie buddy? Have larger jumps between gears. Single speed works great for perfecting spin and developing leg strength, consistent with my argument for fewer gears with bigger jumps. 

Riding 10 speed cassettes, I noticed immediately that using closely spaced low speed gears, 39/19 to 26, made me shift more than one cog over to pick up the cadence while simultaneously adapting to the changing grade. One gear wouldn't make enough difference. The grade would always be slightly too much. With 6 speeds, shifting once into the next cog, the jumps are just right and the legs pick up the cadence without strain. 

Why have a bunch of low and high gears you never use? I've never been able to pedal for any length of time in 52-13 solo without a tailwind or downgrade, but on a good day can handle 52-14. At 90 rpm, 52/14 is a great gear for building up a nice aerobic spin right below anaerobic threshold. Standard "fast touring" freewheels in the '70s were 14-28. !3s came along in the '80s, then 12s, then 11s, more gears outside the range most riders use at normal bicycling speeds, 6 to 25 mph. So manufacturers shrank the chainrings, "compact gearing" that mortals can actually handle.

Approaching a climb, I drop the chain into the smaller chain ring first. The 52/42 ten tooth jump is just right. I can maintain speed without spinning out. 52-39 would be slighly too much, one freewheel cog in back too little. Lots of riders attack the hill in the large ring and then slow way down midway up, when they shift from the 52 or 50 to the 39 or 34. The ranges in gear inches don't overlap, like with 52-42, so there's a double shift in back to pick up cadence without losing speed. 

On the rolling flats in the midwest, close gearing may shine, but on hills you want gears tuned to the grades. Around DC most grades are doable in 42-19, 24, or 28 for the steepest. A reasonably fit rider wouldn't need anything lower. In the mountains out west, or in Pittsburg, PA, or SF, sure, nice to have some low speed climbing gears so you can "spin" up the grades.

Found out after returning to the old climbs out of Rock Creek Park after a 15 year absence, they're slightly easier. The challenging climb up Morrow Drive from the creek to the amphitheater seems like no big deal, not the painful end of the ride it used to be. The cardio system is noticeably improved, largely from ability to slow twitch just at anaerobic threshold at 40-60 rpm your fixie buddy rides. When it hurts, the legs can handle it. 

Haven't ridden a century for years, so don't have the same endurance. But your 68 year old cycling mate proves my point. Climbing in 42-22 at 40-50 rpms builds up the legs really well, so I never felt the need to go fixie. But yeah, that's the way to go. Then riding up hills in 34-28 is ridiculously easy. 

Here's the thing with all these gears: have the gears you use. Get rid of the ones you don't use. Adapt gear selections to current fitness or terrain. 42-28 lowest and 52-14 highest is great around DC, so I want all the other gears to be in between or they're excess baggage. On a 10 or 11 speed, that would eliminate the 30 and 32 on the low end and the 11, 12, 13 on the high end. That leaves room for a 16t. cog, the one right in the middle of cycling speeds they always skip. On a 6 speed, 4 gears in between high and low provide a nice spread my legs can handle nicely, one tooth jumps up to the 17, then two, three and four tooth jumps on the climbs, speed adjusted to the grade and lactate threshold.  IOW, one tooth jumps are significant at high speeds. At low speeds, 3 and 4 tooth jumps are about right. 

I also still assert big rings last longer than small rings and are easier to pedal. Francesco Moser broke the hour record in 55-17, besting Merckx's record in 52-14, about the same gear inches. Moser claimed he could get better leverage on the larger hoops. So give me 52-14, forget 50-12, about the same gear inches. 

Chains: When I can use any chain link to tie it together, I don't need a funky special link lying around. I like it simple. The marketers want to make it complicated so they can sell you their solutions. Some of us old farts ain't buying the hype.

I've found working shops in the '90s and '00s, if a chain broke, it was half the time the "master" link ham-handedly assembled on the chain. Pressing in a normal link pin on these skinny chains must be so precise, they provide this special link. 

I also noticed rear derailleur cages start to bend inwards after miles and miles and laying the bike down in cars, et. al. I'll concede they've gotten much better now that the slightest misalignment causes havoc on 10 speed shifting. :frown2:


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> I also noticed rear derailleur cages start to bend inwards after miles and miles and *laying the bike down in cars*, et. al. I'll concede they've gotten much better now that the slightest misalignment causes havoc on 10 speed shifting. :frown2:


Ummm, if you lay the bike down derailleur side up, this won't happen. :idea:


----------



## M-theory (Jul 16, 2009)

Fredrico said:


> Well, the old man has some great points. Steel is real. Carbon is plastic. The whole reason behind gravel bikes is to retrieve a market for strong bikes that reliably go the distance, hold up to abuse, and don't split apart in a crash and leave rider stranded in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> 
> Its telling, gravel bikes are the thing. They're a return to practical bikes most riders want, and won't cost as much as a late model used car.
> Then there's threaded cup and cone BBs and wheel bearings, entirely serviceable; they don't loosen up, and last forever. I would have trouble finding a new bike with all the features of my old steel bikes from the '80s. Gravel bikes come closest. Who woulda known? What goes around comes around.


Yes, and thank goodness for gravel bikes. But they've only been around for a few years. Without them, cycling would be the disaster he was ranting against in the OP. 

The thing for the average cyclist to remember is simply this...lower cost components and frames will last longer than higher cost components and frames. So there is a 'sweet spot' as to what anyone should spend on a bike based upon their needs. It's not just about cost effectiveness, or diminishing returns, its about truly get less of a bike if you spend too much.

A Dura Ace cassette won't last as long as an Ultegra, which in turn won't last as long as a Tiagra. The extra weight/material provides longevity. The same can be said for aluminum bike frames, and carbon frames, assuming the same reliable name brand manufacturer. 

Most bike models have a whole host of 'versions' and a wide price range. What unites them as a single entity is merely that the geometry stays the same...but the construction and materials differ across the price range. So, if you are going to 'upgrade' to the lightest, most professional version of a particular bike, well you are also to going to have the shortest lifespan.

You can always shave weight with a wheel upgrade. But a little extra weight on the frames and forks is a good thing. 

Resist the urge to 'buy the best', because there is no best; everything is a trade-off. 

With that in mind there is really no need to spend big money on a modern, fully equipped gravel bike. 

So yeah, For me gravel bikes have saved the day, and have revived my interest in the sport...even though I still do most of my riding on the road.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Haven't ridden a century for years, so don't have the same endurance. But your 68 year old cycling mate proves my point. .


Uh no. It doesn't. 
He started 8min ahead of the group. I caught him before half way. And finished 10-15 min ahead of him. Maybe more, I didn't stick around. 

It proves you don't need all those gears, but having them makes you faster. 




> I also noticed rear derailleur cages start to bend inwards after miles and miles and laying the bike down in cars, et. al.


Wow.. who woulda thunk that. 

If you lay your bike on the derailleur, you deserve to have it bent.


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Who in their right mind would lay their bike on the RD, seriously .... who said they did that?

You read his posts? OMG!

The only REAL frame material is BAMBOO!


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

duriel said:


> Who in their right mind would lay their bike on the RD, seriously .... who said they did that?
> 
> You read his posts? OMG!


His posts here are nothing compared to the vile sewage he posts over in P.O.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Tom Kunich said:


> Most of the newest top end bikes are carbon fiber and the latest trends are for lighter and ever lighter bikes. This causes manufacturers to make lighter and lighter frames.
> 
> While carbon fiber has higher strength to weight ratio than most other materials it also has its own problems - the thread length of a carbon fiber is short. This means that as the frame resin embrittles with age the frames can fail catastrophically.
> 
> ...


+1.. I agree with this. Now that I'm in my mid 40's, I look back at the past 30 years of riding and racing. What you're saying is true. This is real world experience, not lab testing or marketing jarb. However, this is an industry and their job is to sell product. That's their livelihood. I know that most of the new tech is garbage or recycled stuff, but if this wasn't happening, less people would be on bikes and product wouldn't be selling as well as it has been. As for the steel to carbon comparison. That ride compliancy that everyone is looking for in aluminum and carbon fiber bikes, is inherent in steel bikes. Titanium is in another league all it's own. By the way, I'm not a luddite if anyone is wondering. All of my steeds are aluminum or carbon fiber( I love my Cannondales) . I am just giving credit where credit is due. My next steed will be a Colnago Masters, which is steel by the way.


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

What exactly is the thread length of CF in CF frames?


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

terbennett said:


> +1.. I agree with this. Now that I'm in my mid 40's, I look back at the past 30 years of riding and racing. What you're saying is true. This is real world experience, not lab testing or marketing jarb. However, this is an industry and their job is to sell product. That's their livelihood. I know that most of the new tech is garbage or recycled stuff, but if this wasn't happening, less people would be on bikes and product wouldn't be selling as well as it has been. As for the steel to carbon comparison. That ride compliancy that everyone is looking for in aluminum and carbon fiber bikes, is inherent in steel bikes. Titanium is in another league all it's own. By the way, I'm not a luddite if anyone is wondering. All of my steeds are aluminum or carbon fiber( I love my Cannondales) . I am just giving credit where credit is due. My next steed will be a Colnago Masters, which is steel by the way.


As someone in my late 50's, I seem to be travelling back in time. Increasingly, I have a preference for steel framed bikes. Only one of my five bikes are carbon, and I don't ride it much. I ride the titanium bike in the winter and use it for travelling. I was riding/racing a carbon fiber bike in the early 1990's (Kestrel 200 Sci) and taking a lot of [email protected] from the steel is real crowd about my plastic bike. 

I disagree with the OP. There's nothing wrong with spending money on a bike if it makes you happy. Name one hobby where almost anyone can afford the very top of the line. Boats? Cars? Machine guns? Plus it's a good for you hobby. Will that expensive bike make you faster? Probably not. Will 423 less grams make you top that big hill sooner? If yes, barely. But if it makes you happy and gets you out more often, its money well spent. Part of the goal of retirement is to be able to survive to enjoy it for a while. 

If titanium is in a league by itself, then why on earth aren't you getting a titanium bike next? Instead of the Master (there is no 's'), spend a bit more and get an Arabesque. But don't get the blue one --- that's mine. 

https://www.colnago.com/en/bikes/arabesque/


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

duriel said:


> What exactly is the thread length of CF in CF frames?


From the article
"Carbon bikes can contain up to 500 pieces of pre-preg, assembled in 40 or more layers—often combining different grades. Some pieces are as long as a down tube, while others are no bigger than a postage stamp."

OP under informed as usual. Also, in terms of volume I really doubt Colnago has more experience than any other manufacturer and who knows if their engineers are actually more knowledgeable than the folks at Trek or Specialized. 

https://www.colnago.com/en/assistance-and-warranty/

Colnago warranty covers all frames for 3 years if registered and purchased from a dealer. They do not specify frame material. Basically, they don't really trust anything they make.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

202cycle said:


> From the article
> "Carbon bikes can contain up to 500 pieces of pre-preg, assembled in 40 or more layers—often combining different grades. Some pieces are as long as a down tube, while others are no bigger than a postage stamp."
> 
> OP under informed as usual. Also, in terms of volume I really doubt Colnago has more experience than any other manufacturer and who knows if their engineers are actually more knowledgeable than the folks at Trek or Specialized.
> ...


I'm pretty sure Colnago makes their frames from Toray tubesets. At least their Italian made "C" series frames. The rest of their bikes (except for Masters and Arabesques) are made by Giant. Toray is a world leader in carbon fiber technology and Giant has been making bikes for countless manufacturers for years. It wouldn't surprise me if many of those carbon bikes with "lifetime" warranties are made by Giant (e.g., Trek and Specialized). 

https://www.toray.us/products/prod_004.html

If there's a manufacturing defect is a frame, it will manifest itself within three years -- and most likely a lot sooner as in when you build it up and see that something is wrong. Good luck collecting on a warranty from any manufacturer unless its an obvious manufacturing defect. Its a bike frame. They wear out over time. Saying "they don't trust anything they make" is a silly statement. No one wants to get a reputation for making things that break. Is a short warranty worse than a lifetime warranty promise that you'll never collect on? And by the way, have you, or anyone you know, ever returned a bike frame under warranty? Its a bike frame. It doesn't get much more simple. There's no moving parts. 

I'd guess the requirement that the frame be purchased through a dealer is to dissuade a grey market, and counterfeits. Kind of hard to buy a Trek or Specialized from anyone other than an authorized dealer. 

The high end Colnago carbon frames are nice. I have a C-40 that I recently refurbished that's 20 years old. It was the first successful carbon bike in the pro peloton (remember Mapeii?). The use of lugs seems cave man, but it allows them to build frames of custom geometry. I had mine custom built. You can't do that using a mold.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

terbennett said:


> That ride compliancy that everyone is looking for in aluminum and carbon fiber bikes, is inherent in steel bikes.


If you are looking for compliance, look no further than YOUR TIRES. Everything else will make a negligible difference.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

terbennett said:


> As for the steel to carbon comparison. That ride compliancy that everyone is looking for in aluminum and carbon fiber bikes, is inherent in steel bikes.


No, it's not. There is so little difference in 'compliancy' that most people would be hard pressed to notice it...and I'm talking between the stiffest frame out there and the most 'compliant'. If you think that you can build a traditionally shaped frame out of any material and have 'vertical compliance' you need to rethink what's going on when you're riding your bike. Here's a hint: The seat tube has a LOT to do with it.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> No, it's not. There is so little difference in 'compliancy' that most people would be hard pressed to notice it...and I'm talking between the stiffest frame out there and the most 'compliant'. If you think that you can build a traditionally shaped frame out of any material and have 'vertical compliance' you need to rethink what's going on when you're riding your bike. Here's a hint: The *seat tube* has a LOT to do with it.


Seat tube?? Do tell. From my understanding, the best shock absorbers are YOU and YOUR TIRES.


----------



## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Lombard said:


> From my understanding, the best shock absorbers are YOU and YOUR TIRES.


It's the legs, to be specific.


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Not if you have 15" of seat post showing!


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Seat tube?? Do tell. From my understanding, the best shock absorbers are YOU and YOUR TIRES.


Exactly. The seat tube does a great job of stopping any flex that could provide 'vertical compliance'. As do most seatstays.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bvber said:


> It's the legs, to be specific.


Not unless you are out of the saddle.


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

This thread needs a little Tom Kunich input.


----------



## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Lombard said:


> Seat tube?? Do tell. From my understanding, the best shock absorbers are YOU and YOUR TIRES.



Isn't the entire concept of 'compliance' to reduce the impact to the rider?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Finx said:


> Isn't the entire concept of 'compliance' to reduce the impact to the rider?


Precisely. So if the best shock absorbers are the *rider* and the *tires*, what area could you improve to reduce the impact on the rider? :idea:


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I find it very odd that they say carbon fiber can be made both stiff and compliant...
Yet... nobody has managed to come up with this magical permutation... because every new model claims to be stiffer and more compliancy than the previous. LOL. Now why can't manufacturers just make a carbon frame stiff and compliant the first time around? Come on it's been 20 years since the introduction of carbon fiber in the bicycle industry and yet today we're still not perfecting the technique yet?

I'm afraid that carbon fiber application in bike frame has reached its zenith and don't expect any more stiffness nor compliance out of it. Anyone claiming that they can now make a more compliant frame is talking BULLSYit!


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Seat tube?? Do tell. From my understanding, the best shock absorbers are YOU and YOUR TIRES.


the problem with relying on tires for compliancy is that they also ride smushy when you need instant response. And yes you can use you legs and arms for shock absorption, but then you'll get tired, hence that's where material science and design come into the rescue, something that the bicycle industry has put a huge spin on it to confuse things further.


----------



## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Not unless you are out of the saddle.


That depends on what the definition of "out" is. If it has to show a visible gap between saddle and the bike shorts, then no, it can still be legs. If it just means reducing the body weight bearing on the saddle, then yes. :idea:


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

aclinjury said:


> I find it very odd that they say carbon fiber can be made both stiff and compliant...
> Yet... nobody has managed to come up with this magical permutation... because every new model claims to be stiffer and more compliancy than the previous. LOL. Now why can't manufacturers just make a carbon frame stiff and compliant the first time around? Come on it's been 20 years since the introduction of carbon fiber in the bicycle industry and yet today we're still not perfecting the technique yet?
> 
> I'm afraid that carbon fiber application in bike frame has reached its zenith and don't expect any more stiffness nor compliance out of it. Anyone claiming that they can now make a more compliant frame is *talking BULLSYit*!


Isn't that the job of the marketing dept.


----------



## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Not unless you are out of the saddle.


If you're driving the pedals it's the legs while in the saddle.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I find it very odd that they say carbon fiber can be made both stiff and compliant...
> Yet... nobody has managed to come up with this magical permutation... because every new model claims to be stiffer and more compliancy than the previous. LOL. Now why can't manufacturers just make a carbon frame stiff and compliant the first time around? Come on it's been 20 years since the introduction of carbon fiber in the bicycle industry and yet today we're still not perfecting the technique yet?
> 
> I'm afraid that carbon fiber application in bike frame has reached its zenith and don't expect any more stiffness nor compliance out of it. Anyone claiming that they can now make a more compliant frame is talking BULLSYit!


You can definitely make things out of carbon and end up w/ wildly different stiffness/flexibility. I made some samples at the Cervelo facility in SoCal years ago. They were popsicle stick shaped and both were 4 layers of exactly the same uni-directional pre preg. One had the fibers all aligned lengthwise and the other had them biased at 45*, each later 90* to the ones on each side of it. The one w/ the lengthwise orientation could NOT be flexed lengthwise but could be twisted very easily. The other was exactly the opposite. That's 4 layers, super basic layup, no CAD, no CFD. 
That said it's very hard to make an object like a bicycle frame with it's conveniently located seat tube have much in the way of vertical 'compliance' unless you add some kind of pivot point, like the Domane. You can continue to make the frame laterally stiffer and stiffer, but only the marketing dept thinks this is getting you anywhere. 
Engineers and designers learn new things all the time, if your argument of 'why didn't they do this 20 years ago' was legitimate then why weren't cars as efficient and fast 20 years ago as they are today? Why is there new anything? Progress happens, just not overnight.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Ummm, if you lay the bike down derailleur side up, this won't happen. :idea:


Well, you shoulda told all these guys who didn't think about that, and brought their bent derailleurs in for adjustment. Rear derailleurs are in a vulnerable position. I've seen long cages scrape the curb when rider jockeys the bike around. 

I only mention this because I've seen the dreaded bent derailleur cages many times. Short cages take a lot longer. The Shimano 600EX I ran came loose at the bushings. The late model 10 speed derailleurs down to Shimano Sora are laterally stiffer than the older ones, have to admit.

Why would builders want to eliminate the front derailleurs and one chain ring? Front derailleurs stay put and last forever; the two I have are still original. At some point one bushing will give way, but that day hasn't arrived. 

One chain ring and a big pie plate rear cluster saves a buck, but the tradeoff isn't worth it. I'd much rather split my 12 gears between two chain rings rather than set up 12 gears in linear fashion. I can skip over 3 gears in back with an instant front derailleur shift in front. Why would I want to give that up?


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Well, you shoulda told all these guys who didn't think about that, and brought their bent derailleurs in for adjustment. Rear derailleurs are in a vulnerable position. I've seen long cages scrape the curb when rider jockeys the bike around.
> 
> I only mention this because I've seen the dreaded bent derailleur cages many times. Short cages take a lot longer. The Shimano 600EX I ran came loose at the bushings. The late model 10 speed derailleurs down to Shimano Sora are laterally stiffer than the older ones, have to admit.


Huh?? When was the last time you worked on bikes? It's the hanger that bends, not the derailleur. That's what the hanger is for - it's a sacrificial item.



Fredrico said:


> Why would builders want to eliminate the front derailleurs and one chain ring?
> 
> ........saves a buck.


You answered your own question.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> His posts here are nothing compared to the vile sewage he posts over in P.O.


Damn, Lombard, I thought we were friends! . Could we stick to the issues? Apparently not.

Look, gang, I post the truth that I have seen many times bikes laid in the van with derailleur DOWN, often on top of other bikes with derailleurs up. Riders don't realize how delicate bikes are in the drive train. They also fall over to the right as rider handles them from the left, seldom the other way. And bingo: rear derailleur cage hits the dirt. I've seen it happen more times than I can count.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> Uh no. It doesn't.
> He started 8min ahead of the group. I caught him before half way. And finished 10-15 min ahead of him. Maybe more, I didn't stick around.
> 
> It proves you don't need all those gears, but having them makes you faster.


Didn't ask you what gear this fixie was using. He'd be spinning out frequently in 42-19 on a century with a bunch of big boys in their awesome compact gearing! 

Your original point however, is he'd kick everyone's a$$ if he had a higher gear, right?


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Exactly. The seat tube does a great job of stopping any flex that could provide 'vertical compliance'. As do most seatstays.


True, but only between the saddle and BB, a relationship rider wants to always be the same, or on seat post shock absorbers, always return to the same height over a bump and not bounce up and down under hard pedaling.

Shocks come from the front wheel through the fork, head tube to the seat post, and down tube to the BB, already weighted by the rider, which in turn weights the shocks coming in from the rear wheel through the chain and seat stays.

I've always surmised the recent trend towards pencil thin seat stays is chosen as better at absorbing shock waves along their lengths than thicker stays. Same with skinny top tubes and skinnier down tubes. Monocoque frames were so uncomfortable, builders went back to smaller diameter tubes because they absorbed shocks much better. Colnago shied away from fat tubes for this reason. 

Tube diameters have an unappreciated function making the ride comfortable while not giving up response. No hydraulics necessary. Just that ole modulus of elasticity of narrow diameter tubing that oscillates as the shock waves travel along its lengths and roll off by the time they get to the seat tube. 

Long top tubes absorb shocks nicely. So do long seat posts, hear tell, the longer the better. Compact frames are touted to be stiffer than horizontal top tube frames, and therefore not quite as comfortable.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Huh?? When was the last time you worked on bikes? It's the hanger that bends, not the derailleur. That's what the hanger is for - it's a sacrificial item.


. 

Yep, disposable derailleur hangers. :thumbsup: Great point. 

The original reason was the aluminum also tended to break when bent. The old CRMO hangers could 90% of the time be bent back with the appropriate tool. If not, the drive side dropout could be replaced with a brazing torch. Ah the good ole days of brazing torches and hot metal!

But you're right. Put the weakest link in the hanger. The old steel hangers were just too stiff. :nono:


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> I have seen many times bikes laid in the van with derailleur DOWN, often on top of other bikes with derailleurs up.


What can I say? You can't fix stupid. Though most riders I have come across know better than to do this.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Didn't ask you what gear this fixie was using. He'd be spinning out frequently in 42-19 on a century with a bunch of big boys in their awesome compact gearing!
> 
> Your original point however, is he'd kick everyone's a$$ if he had a higher gear, right?


A single higher gear? No... no he wouldn't.
When he rides his 6 speed, he can hang with the 'big boys'... until the hills. Then he gets dropped.
And when he rides his 11sp... he doesn't.

Physics is physics.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Fredrico said:


> .
> 
> Yep, disposable derailleur hangers. :thumbsup: Great point.
> 
> ...


OK, boomer


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> OK, boomer


Hey, I'm a boomer, but at the tail end. And I think Freddy admitted awhile back he's before the boomers.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

tlg said:


> A single higher gear? No... no he wouldn't.
> When he rides his 6 speed, he can hang with the 'big boys'... until the hills. Then he gets dropped.
> And when he rides his 11sp... he doesn't.
> 
> Physics is physics.


Two things missing here. 

1. His 6 speed bike weighs 22 pounds and he's got a low gear of 42-28? 

2. His 11 speed bike weighs 17 pounds and has a 39-32 lowest gear? 

I've been told and witnessed myself, those fixies can be very light. So they climb like bandits in gears such as 42-17. I notice, all else being equal, a bike that is 5 pounds lighter climbs faster. That's why I was interested in what gear this fixie guy is riding.

Sure, not a great idea to ride a fixie in a group ride with freewheelers. So what gear is he in when he gets dropped? What gear is he in when he doesn't get dropped? I ask because I have no problem keeping up with riders in 42-28, almost all the time pedaling faster than they are, on a 24# bike.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fredrico said:


> Two things missing here.
> 
> 1. His 6 speed bike weighs 22 pounds and he's got a low gear of 42-28?
> 
> ...


Gee...it's almost like you're saying gears make a difference.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Gee...it's almost like you're saying gears make a difference.


I think he's trying to use a "weight makes more difference than gears" argument, or some such horse pucky.


----------



## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Lombard said:


> Hey, I'm a boomer, but at the tail end. And I think Freddy admitted awhile back he's before the boomers.


Well, being born in 1961, I guess you could call me a 'boomer', but I never identified as one. Couldn't stand the popular music of the time, I had older parents, and identified with the emerging punk scene more than anything else.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Well, being born in 1961, I guess you could call me a 'boomer', but I never identified as one. Couldn't stand the popular music of the time, I had older parents, and identified with the emerging punk scene more than anything else.


Same here. My teen years were during the........ecccccchhhhh..........disco age.


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Lombard said:


> Same here. My teen years were during the........ecccccchhhhh..........disco age.


A bit off thread, but yeah, every generation has its own sound track.

Went to a Joan Baez concert around '63 in Queens, NY, where teens booed her special guest, Bob Dylan, off stage. Picked up AM radio stations at night in Buffalo and Tullahoma, TN, that played R&B Cousin Brucie wouldn't run on WABC. 

Drove home Saturday nights from my job at the airport, "jumping with my boy Symphony Sid" at the Palladium Ballroom, hosting Joe Cuba, Ray Barretto, and La Lupe, the voice that would turn a man into jello.

There was a bouzouki band over at the Egyptian Gardens that played like Bill Monroe and his Bluegrass Boys, with graceful belly dancers tapping finger cymbals. Wealthy old men would slip dollar bills in their bras and they'd do a little dance just for them. I've never seen anything like it on videos; must be a dying art; a relic of the pre-industrial age.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

pmf said:


> As someone in my late 50's, I seem to be travelling back in time. Increasingly, I have a preference for steel framed bikes. Only one of my five bikes are carbon, and I don't ride it much. I ride the titanium bike in the winter and use it for travelling. I was riding/racing a carbon fiber bike in the early 1990's (Kestrel 200 Sci) and taking a lot of [email protected] from the steel is real crowd about my plastic bike.
> 
> I disagree with the OP. There's nothing wrong with spending money on a bike if it makes you happy. Name one hobby where almost anyone can afford the very top of the line. Boats? Cars? Machine guns? Plus it's a good for you hobby. Will that expensive bike make you faster? Probably not. Will 423 less grams make you top that big hill sooner? If yes, barely. But if it makes you happy and gets you out more often, its money well spent. Part of the goal of retirement is to be able to survive to enjoy it for a while.
> 
> ...


That Arabesque is gorgeous. I still want to buy a Ti bike one day, but I've always wanted a steel Nag Master. I think I should buy one before I buy any other bike. I love the feel of steel. My love for Ti is due to it being such an amazing material. However, I have told myself that I will be buying a steel bike soon and it has to be the Nag. Never owned one, but I want to see how light I can build the Master X Light to be and still be useable.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

terbennett said:


> That Arabesque is gorgeous. I still want to buy a Ti bike one day, but I've always wanted a steel Nag Master. I think I should buy one before I buy any other bike. I love the feel of steel. My love for Ti is due to it being such an amazing material. However, I have told myself that I will be buying a steel bike soon and it has to be the Nag. Never owned one, but I want to see how light I can build the Master X Light to be and still be useable.


An Arabesque is just a Master with fancy lug work. They're both still made in Italy. That means something to me in the age of mass produced Chinese carbon bikes. I think once Ernesto dies, that'll be it. Still usable? My Arabesque would probably be lighter than my titanium bike if it had a carbon fork. But that would be a crime. Fact is, you'll never notice a few extra pounds difference. I built the Arabesque with Campy Chorus parts. The Eddy got a Campy Athena group that I had laying around. I have no idea why they quit making that group. It's the most attractive modern group out there. For me, the weight isn't something I care about a lot.


----------



## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> Whatever. You made a post, you chose to use 'dissolve' knowing full well it was not the correct word nor even close. You exaggerate a ton. Like the 'whole peloton flatted'. Guess what I'm reading right now?


Judging from your postings "Look Dick, See Jane Run".


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

202cycle said:


> This thread needs a little Tom Kunich input.


Interesting. This thread also just had a subtopic celebrate a six month anniversary.....


----------



## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Tom Kunich said:


> Judging from your postings "Look Dick, See Jane Run".


This may be the single worst thread dredge EVER!


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Anybody want to make bets when Tom Kunich will get another ban?


----------



## armybikerider (Oct 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Anybody want to make bets when Tom Kunich will get another ban?


It'll happen only if the moderators are paying attention. And man I HOPE to heck they are!


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

armybikerider said:


> It'll happen only if the moderators are paying attention. And man I HOPE to heck they are!


Not really. Someone needs to report bad behavior


----------



## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

tlg said:


> Not really. Someone needs to report bad behavior



^This. 

There aren't many moderators around these days, and we don't read every post on every sub-forum. Admins are even scarcer.

Also, not every mod can operate as a mod outside of their sub-forum (this is my case). So, someone can be an utter tool in another sub-forum, and all I can do is complain, same as everyone else.


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

Coolhand has already picked up the scent on another thread.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ogre said:


> Coolhand has already picked up the scent on another thread.


because someone alerted him.


----------



## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

xxl said:


> ^This.
> 
> There aren't many moderators around these days, and we don't read every post on every sub-forum. Admins are even scarcer.
> 
> Also, not every mod can operate as a mod outside of their sub-forum (this is my case). So, someone can be an utter tool in another sub-forum, and all I can do is complain, same as everyone else.


And that's a good thing.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> because someone alerted him.


I wonder who that "someone" was.


----------

