# Dirty ticks and below the belt punches during races?



## MerckxTeamSC (Nov 19, 2004)

Just curious... how many of you have been victims of "foul play" during races or yourself played dirty during races?... have you ever "accidentally" bumped the rear of another racer or brought them down?... I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race... I myself can be a real ass during races when the tetesterone and adrenaline gets to me...  ...


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

MerckxTeamSC said:


> Just curious... how many of you have been victims of "foul play" during races or yourself played dirty during races?... have you ever "accidentally" bumped the rear of another racer or brought them down?... I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race... I myself can be a real ass during races when the tetesterone and adrenaline gets to me...  ...


And I was just about to congradulate you on your performance in your race. Maybe I'm a PollyAnna but I don't see any room for that kind of destructive behavior in a race. The consequences are too great. Especially since you can't win a race alone. You NEED the help of others to end up in the front. The racing community is very small. You will be known as the guy to stay away from, if not ostriscized, penalized or worse.
BTW it is usually the guy to "hits" the front rider who goes down, not the other way around.


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

MerckxTeamSC said:


> have you ever "accidentally" bumped the rear of another racer or brought them down?...


If you "accidentally bump" a rider's rear wheel, chances are YOU will be the one going down.

People who can't win races based upon their own racing/aerobic ability are the ones that don't play fair.


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## triple shot espresso (Aug 27, 2002)

*Yeah, that would be very dumb.*

Very very stupid. It's not football or hockey. There is some amount of pushing and elbowing to get to the front in a pack sprint but nothing that would intentially cause a crash.

I have been punched in the gut in a race. Being 145 pounds of pure fury I brought my 240 pound friend with me when I went looking for the guy. I found him and embarrassed him in front of his buddies.

I saw this other guy that I know had a bad temper tackle, yes literally tackle another guy in a Cat 4 race. The guy that got hit ended up in the hospital. The tackler was basically ostricized and disappeared at the end of the season.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*If...*



MerckxTeamSC said:


> Just curious... how many of you have been victims of "foul play" during races or yourself played dirty during races?... have you ever "accidentally" bumped the rear of another racer or brought them down?... I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race... I myself can be a real ass during races when the tetesterone and adrenaline gets to me...  ...


If you're playing "dirty tricks" to get ahead at races, do the rest of us a favor and stay home, don't bother coming out. Speaking as a person who races because he thinks it's fun and spurs his competitive spirit, I don't need jerks out there trying little tricks, it's not warranted. If it's accidental, yeah, that happens. If it's on purpose, you can bet someone might get a talking to in the parking lot post race. It's not hard to play fair. Ride your line, don't do anything on purpose, even when the testosterone and adrenalin pumping. You hook someone on purpose, or take them to the curb, or run their wheel, you suck.. What cat are you again? If you're a 5 and doing this in that field (or any field for that matter), or a masters field, you need to just go away. If you can't play nice with the other kids on a weekend when the vast majority of people there are working class stiffs like most of us, like I said, just stay away and practice your "dirty tricks" on your friends on the group ride at home.


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## MerckxTeamSC (Nov 19, 2004)

haha... before i get flamed, i wud just like to clarify that i do not play dirty during road races... i have grown out of that stage and am mature enuff to understand the meaning of sportsmanship... i started this thread because i recalled my younger days as an xc racer (16-20yr old) who did do some ungentlemanly things to win races... and another reason is that noticed during my last race, some dirty tactics employed by some to gain advantage... in the final sprint of the crit, this one rider jammed his brakes in front of another guy who was threatening to out-sprint his team mate... this resulted in the rider jamming his brakes and endoing meters from the finishing line... he broke a wheel and lost some skin...


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## benInMA (Jan 22, 2004)

I saw a lot of this crap as a Cat 5 in *flat* criteriums. It was always the bigger/heavier guys who had no chance in a harder race. It seemed like as soon as the race was dead flat they would see it as their opportunity.

Punching, pushing, swerving in front other riders, etc.. all common in these races. Worst case was a "team" getting to the front and doing what looked like a choreographed swerve that caused a major pileup and caused one guy to take an ambulance ride with a broken hip.

It really frustrated me and I pretty much gave up in competing in those races just to save my skin. I did quite a few of those, it was such a breath of fresh air the first few races I did that actually had hills to drop those idiots on. For some reason when the race is actually tough the guys with ethical issues are the first ones to be dropped.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

*Obligatory BA quotation*



MerckxTeamSC said:


> I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race.


DAVE: Everyone cheats
PAPA: Well, now you know.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

guys who don't play fair get marked. when you have an option of breaking your line to let someone in, if it's a guy you know and like, you let him in. If not, even in a non-critical situation, you are entitled to hold your line, and you just pretend you didn't see it. I would never intentionally slam anyone into a curb, but if someone's being a jackass, I'm inclined to let them.


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## RockyMountainRacer (Mar 12, 2002)

The only "dirty trick" I see applied with any consistency is when the pack is setting up for a corner and some jerk sprints up the inside as the pack is slowing and moving over to the outside to take the corner. This guy of course will end taking the inside to outside line because of his speed going into the corner which can chop wheels of the lead riders and cause a pile-up right at the front of the pack. And if the aforementioned jerk is yelling "inside!" while he pulls this move it just adds insult to injury.

The other "dirty trick" I really hate is when those skinny climber bastids attack pretty much every time the road goes uphill. I don't know how they can look at themselves in the mirror after pulling that dirty trick time and time again. Dirty dirty climbers...


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*new perspective*

How about actually training hard and trying your best?

Otherwise, you are begging for an industrial can of whoop a55 to be opened on you and I am speaking of the 55 gallon variety.

If you train in structured manner that actually has a goal, there is this vague concept of results through hard work. Wooo, time for a beer...


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

In a move that I still think about, a guy in the last lap cuts into my line from the inside. I instinctually swung wider to avoid him, causing a big pile-up. Did I need to swing as wide as I did? I'll never know. But one of the guys I took down, bloodied (as was I, although fortunately no one got really hurt), helped me to my feet before losing his temper and unloading on me. What could I do? I apologized to defuse the moment, and I was sorry, but I still don't know it was my fault.


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## curveship (Jan 26, 2005)

MerckxTeamSC said:


> I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race... I myself can be a real ass during races when the tetesterone and adrenaline gets to me...  ...


Reputations build up quickly in the local race scene ... and also on internet boards. For instance, it looks like you just nominated yourself as "the dude with the nice bike who is an ass in races" in the RBR list of characters. You seem to be asking for a lot of advice on the board. You might find you're getting fewer responses in the future ...


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

The other "dirty trick" I really hate is when those skinny climber bastids attack pretty much every time the road goes uphill. I don't know how they can look at themselves in the mirror after pulling that dirty trick time and time again. Dirty dirty climbers...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and when those super fast damn sprinter types, blow me away at the finish. Damn those guys who are fast! They're all dirty tricksters.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

In the "real world", very few racers break the rules, or are noted as being "rough riders" If they break the rules, or cause more than their fair share of crashes, they soon find that "bad things" start to happen to them. It might be something as simple as a group of riders who become quiet as you walk by, or something as serious as getting jammed in a turn. (quite often)
One of the guys that I race against, has been caught cheating more than a few times. He's one "those" guys that, after he walks past, everybody laughts about how much the guy is a moron.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

curveship said:


> Reputations build up quickly in the local race scene ... and also on internet boards. For instance, it looks like you just nominated yourself as "the dude with the nice bike who is an ass in races" in the RBR list of characters. You seem to be asking for a lot of advice on the board. You might find you're getting fewer responses in the future ...


 I think he got the point. I'm sure he has no plans of misbehaving,


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*a true dirty trick*



MerckxTeamSC said:


> Just curious... how many of you have been victims of "foul play" during races or yourself played dirty during races?... have you ever "accidentally" bumped the rear of another racer or brought them down?... I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race... I myself can be a real ass during races when the tetesterone and adrenaline gets to me...  ...


This is the worst dirty (literally) trick I've seen. I once followed a guy who had such bad B.O. that it nearly made me throw up. Don't know whether it was him or the fact that maybe he hadn't washed his uniform in a month. It was so disgusting that no one wanted to draft him or even be near him. Now, this tactic wouldn't be great for teaming up with someone for a break, but it might give you a little wider berth in the group and turn a dual break into a solo. ;-)

BTW, I think officials can require a clean uniform, and that's probably not only a visual thing.


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## Refuel (Feb 28, 2005)

I've had a team both run me to the side of the road slowly as attacks happen, and for the final sprint, surround me and box me in while their designated sprinter took off. I think the adrenaline caused me to break through and win the sprint  

Note this is at local races where there is an intense rivalry. I love it.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Those aren't...*



Refuel said:


> I've had a team both run me to the side of the road slowly as attacks happen, and for the final sprint, surround me and box me in while their designated sprinter took off. I think the adrenaline caused me to break through and win the sprint
> 
> Note this is at local races where there is an intense rivalry. I love it.


Those aren't dirty tricks, but what we prefer to call strategy. Those are legal moves. If you can box someone in, that's better. If someone can move you to the side of the road, that's OK as well. Those are common tactics in road racing. Dirty tricks are things like, pushing off someone else, hand slings, chopping someone's wheel, riding off your line, hooking someone in a sprint, and so on and so forth.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Fredke said:


> DAVE: Everyone cheats
> PAPA: Well, now you know.


I don't think that's right. What I remember is:

"The Italians cheat!"

"They all cheat, son."

TF


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I think you both are right. Fredke's I remember more vividly, however. Unless I made up remembering more vividly. I mostly remember the line, "well, now you know."


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

WI State Championship Cat4/5 RR. 4 miles into a 45 mile race. I'm in row 3, left side next to center line. Guy comes over from my right, sticks his elbow under mine and lifts hard. I barely stay up by turning sharp left and am headed straight for the ditch. Luckily, no cars. Turn sharp right and am going the right direction down the wrong lane 6 inches from the gravel. I was a new racer and simply could not believe that anyone would do this. Now I know. - TF


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## Spinnerman (Oct 21, 2004)

Why, why would you even admit to doing this? You claim you were joking, but in every joke there is a little truth. We have family and friends who love us and support our passion to race, train and just plain be out there on the bike suffering when we could be on the couch sucking down a beer because we love this sport. They all want us to come home safely from each race we enter. We don't get paid for doing this, at least I don't and all I want to do is improve as a rider, have a fun race, do my best as safely as I can and then go home to do it all over again.


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## sinkingship (Oct 29, 2004)

Slight bumping for position is a part of racing. Maybe not in the 4's, sometimes in the 3's. Often in the 1/2's. Always in the pro's. Read McEwen or Rodriguez interviews in Cycle Sport or at cyclingnews.com. Having a someone put their hip on your handlebars to move you sucks, but not knowing how to react is even worse. Pinching or getting pinched in a sprint, again, totally normal... That's tactics meets good bike handling, and it happens all of the time.

Things that aren't ever cool: Hooking. Punching. Elbow take downs (Saeco guy to Michael Barry at Philly this year). Riding dudes into holes. That's the kind of thing that should get people suspended.


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## Zone_5_Junkie (Mar 13, 2003)

One of the stupidist "dirty" trick is for some lame team to "block" by putting all of their team across the road and riding slow...some of them were actually embarressed after we started yelling at them.

In the pro ranks it is definately not-pro to block and the riders won't do it no matter how much the DS begs!


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

On occaision I've thought about hooking someone's front wheel cause they did something monumentally stupid. 

I never have. By the time I get caught back up with whatever arsehat did whatever, I've cooled down some.

I HAVE moved people off wheels, ridden people off the back of the paceline, pushed guys that were crowding me, etc. but I've never done anything 'evil*' in a race. *evil defined as something done deliberately to hurt someone.

I still have memories of Michel Zanoli punching Davis Phinney in the Tour du Pont way back when. You shoulda seen the blood!

M


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Wrong...*



Zone_5_Junkie said:


> One of the stupidist "dirty" trick is for some lame team to "block" by putting all of their team across the road and riding slow...some of them were actually embarressed after we started yelling at them.
> 
> In the pro ranks it is definately not-pro to block and the riders won't do it no matter how much the DS begs!


This my friend is where you're wrong...

Blocking goes on ALL THE TIME in pro 1-2 races. Always happens, and it happens in pro races all the time. This is a tactic, and sometimes a useful tactic. The only way to break it is to ride through the block. So I digress, it is indeed "pro" to block. You've got a guy or guys up the road, you're going to do whatever it is you can to give them the best chance at succeeding.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

magnolialover said:


> This my friend is where you're wrong...
> 
> Blocking goes on ALL THE TIME in pro 1-2 races. Always happens, and it happens in pro races all the time. This is a tactic, and sometimes a useful tactic. The only way to break it is to ride through the block. So I digress, it is indeed "pro" to block. You've got a guy or guys up the road, you're going to do whatever it is you can to give them the best chance at succeeding.


But blocking at upper levels is not done the way you two are describing it (lining up across the road and blocking riders from getting through). Blocking is a subtle art - slowing at the front of a chase by soft pedaling slightly, or staying on the front too long, or pulling off with the lead rider, etc. Trying to line up across an entire road at the upper levels won't work if for no other reason than teams don't have enough riders.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*I disagree again...*



asgelle said:


> But blocking at upper levels is not done the way you two are describing it (lining up across the road and blocking riders from getting through). Blocking is a subtle art - slowing at the front of a chase by soft pedaling slightly, or staying on the front too long, or pulling off with the lead rider, etc. Trying to line up across an entire road at the upper levels won't work if for no other reason than teams don't have enough riders.


I disagree again, as last weekend I was in a Pro 1-2 race, and a certain team had their entire team (except for the 3 guys that went into the break) strung out across the road, therefore stifling the other teams from trying to chase the break. It was very effective.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

You've got to be kidding..............This is the sort of thing that happens in citizen and Cat 5 races.
In the "real world", guys that tried that , would be knocked on their a$$'s so fast, their heads would spin.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*My least favorite "tricks"*

First, what is the point in cheating when you are racing for beer and pastry! Wouldn't knowing you had to cheat to do well really take the fun out of the result!

My least favorite tricks that have been done to me. Guys that have no regard for the yellow line rule and go zipping to the front of the peloton while the rest of us who are following the rules are stuck with no way to move forward until the road opens up. (they should be shot on sight)

Guys that change their lines to intentionally block and edge you out in the final sprint. (they should horse whipped)

Now, I don't think I've seen anyone intentionally bump another rider to take them out. I've had other riders close in on me intentionally to the point we rubbed shoulders or elbows, but I've never had one intentionally try to take me out. 

Now, there are ways to be an "aggressive rider" without cheating. Mainly by holding you line and controlling your space or spot in a race. I see a big difference in this when I race masters vs. Cat 4. In masters people control their space and spot in the lineup by keeping the distance between them and the wheel in front small and by not shying away if another rider tries to force their way in. In many situations, like the final sprint, you can box riders in by riding your established line to the right or left. Or block riders behind for your teammate by holding you line and not chasing. 

I race with a few folks known to be "wreckless" riders. People that maybe go a little beyond holding the line. With those folks you need to make it clear with body and bike language that they are not going to push you around. Sometimes it's an elbow or shoulder brush, sometimes it's yelling, screaming and cusing at them. But I have not seen them intentionally "take another rider out". We are always racing with the same crowd in every race. If you were to intentionally take another rider out, I would imagine life would be rough for you for quite a while. 



MerckxTeamSC said:


> Just curious... how many of you have been victims of "foul play" during races or yourself played dirty during races?... have you ever "accidentally" bumped the rear of another racer or brought them down?... I kinda believe that no one can play totally fair during any race... I myself can be a real ass during races when the tetesterone and adrenaline gets to me...  ...


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

In a Cat 4 race a couple of years ago (I wasn't there, but I heard about it), on a narrow course with a center-line rule, a team that happens to be the largest in the area sent a couple of guys off at the gun and then basically linked arms across the road (again I wasn't there, but this is what I heard) at like 18 mph. People are still pissed about that. It seemed so cheesy. At some point you understand that smarts can beat strength, but this seemed rather crude instead of smart. I thought that the rules prohibited deliberately impeding another's progress, which is admittedly a relative and subjective thing, but this seemed over the line.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*i agree about the hill climbers*

Clearly unfair! They should be forced to carry weights on their backs.

But you are all wrong about the sprinters. What's wrong with avoiding all the work and waltzing across the line at the last second?



AlexCad5 said:


> The other "dirty trick" I really hate is when those skinny climber bastids attack pretty much every time the road goes uphill. I don't know how they can look at themselves in the mirror after pulling that dirty trick time and time again. Dirty dirty climbers...


Yeah, and when those super fast damn sprinter types, blow me away at the finish. Damn those guys who are fast! They're all dirty tricksters. [/QUOTE]


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

Double checked it with the DVD:

DAVE: How do you feel, Dad?

DAD: "Dad"? Well, I'll tell you how I'm feeling, son. I had nightmares all night that everyone I ever sold a car to came in to ask for a refund. And you were there handing out the checks. "One for you and one for you and..."

DAVE: I'm sorry I gave him back his money. I really am.

DAVE: Everybody cheats. I just didn't know.

DAD: Well, now you know.

DAD: Where's your trophy?​


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## sinkingship (Oct 29, 2004)

Bill, regarding "that race" -- actually there was a break of 18 riders up the road, 5 of which were "that team". It was a combination of two teams blocking that allowed the gap to grow to be so big.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

My biggest gripe is about people violating the centerline rule. It just bugs the sh!t out of me when riders do this in order to advance themselves. If a group of riders ever tried to ride in front and "block" for a break, I wouldn't have any problems crossing the centerline to get in front of them to lock up my brakes. Of course, I'd tell the other riders in the pack to back off first.
If you're not willing to eat some pavement in order to protect yourself from some clowns, you might as well cut them off and put them in a jar on the shelf.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Umm...*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> You've got to be kidding..............This is the sort of thing that happens in citizen and Cat 5 races.
> In the "real world", guys that tried that , would be knocked on their a$$'s so fast, their heads would spin.


This was real world, as it was a race. It happens all the time. It's not that hard to do, especially when you have a small lane in which you have to stay in less the motor official slap your wrist and send you to the back of the group if you cross the yellow line. 

Just for your edification, I saw Colavita do the same thing last year in a race I rode in that they were at. It happens all the time. This does happen in other races than cat. 5 or citizen's races.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*centerline*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> My biggest gripe is about people violating the centerline rule. It just bugs the sh!t out of me when riders do this in order to advance themselves. If a group of riders ever tried to ride in front and "block" for a break, I wouldn't have any problems crossing the centerline to get in front of them to lock up my brakes. Of course, I'd tell the other riders in the pack to back off first.
> If you're not willing to eat some pavement in order to protect yourself from some clowns, you might as well cut them off and put them in a jar on the shelf.


The centerline rule is one that not only keeps it fair, but safe. Around here, that is the surest way to get DQ'd. The guy who won a local Cat 1 race was DQ'd for it recently.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

DougSloan said:


> The centerline rule is one that not only keeps it fair, but safe. Around here, that is the surest way to get DQ'd. The guy who won a local Cat 1 race was DQ'd for it recently.


 How many miles can a group of riders realistically (and I imagine that this is often more a situation of circumstance at Cat 4/5) keep you back? If you're talking about a 60 mile race. Assuming there is no immediate breakaway, it's our impatience to get farther forward, than actual need. If you aren't in position toward the end of the race you have blown it anyway. Verdad? I've yet to do a RR so I'm actually asking, but in the Crits I've done, there is more than enough time to move back and forth through the pack about as many times as you might wish.


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## Zone_5_Junkie (Mar 13, 2003)

magnolialover said:


> This my friend is where you're wrong...
> 
> Blocking goes on ALL THE TIME in pro 1-2 races. Always happens, and it happens in pro races all the time. This is a tactic, and sometimes a useful tactic. The only way to break it is to ride through the block. So I digress, it is indeed "pro" to block. You've got a guy or guys up the road, you're going to do whatever it is you can to give them the best chance at succeeding.


I'm friends with the DS of one of the top teams in the US...that's from his mouth not mine.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

*Centerline*

One or two years ago, the entire Cat 3 field was DQ'd in a local race.
.
.
.
.
Here's one of my favorite photos.


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## stinkyhelmet (Sep 15, 2003)

I race 35+ (cat 1/2/3) in Colorado. In this category, there are probably 50 or so regulars that all know each other. We rarely see blocking the way some of you are describing blocking. Blocking here is passive blocking, it is rarely physically blocking the road with an entire team. Sitting on as 2nd or 3rd wheel and not pulling through, disrupting the chase, that's what we call blocking. But if a team is pulling on the front to pull back a break, the blockers often say to go ahead and pull and work but I won't help you. If the blocker is sitting 3rd wheel and 2 opponents are pulling, then often times he will allow the guy pulling off the front to slide into 2nd position to get back at the task at hand...pulling. Here, we allow guys the opportunity to work and pull back a break....fair and square. It's a small community and your reputation as either an honest rider or someone that will stab you in your back will proceed you.


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

stinkyhelmet said:


> I race 35+ (cat 1/2/3) in Colorado. In this category, there are probably 50 or so regulars that all know each other. We rarely see blocking the way some of you are describing blocking. Blocking here is passive blocking, it is rarely physically blocking the road with an entire team. Sitting on as 2nd or 3rd wheel and not pulling through, disrupting the chase, that's what we call blocking. But if a team is pulling on the front to pull back a break, the blockers often say to go ahead and pull and work but I won't help you. If the blocker is sitting 3rd wheel and 2 opponents are pulling, then often times he will allow the guy pulling off the front to slide into 2nd position to get back at the task at hand...pulling. Here, we allow guys the opportunity to work and pull back a break....fair and square. It's a small community and your reputation as either an honest rider or someone that will stab you in your back will proceed you.


That's great, BUT at Cat 4/5 you just don't have that level of teamwork lots of times. You get all yer guys on the front waiting to close down the chase and no one goes around you. Not your fault...

I've been on both sides of that situation. 

M


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## RockyMountainRacer (Mar 12, 2002)

bimini said:


> I race with a few folks known to be "wreckless" riders. People that maybe go a little beyond holding the line. With those folks you need to make it clear with body and bike language that they are not going to push you around. Sometimes it's an elbow or shoulder brush, sometimes it's yelling, screaming and cusing at them.


Indeed. The riders that try to intimidate and muscle others off a wheel or what not are the kind of folks that are bullies at heart. And bullies are cowards because they are afraid of what might happen to their results should they simply try to win with their legs rather than resort to intimidation tactics.

I have also found that if you make it clear to these folks that you will not back down when they attempt to intimidate you or scare you off a wheel, they will back off quite quickly and go find someone else to pick on. Screaming and cursing at them is usually overkill (though sometimes necessary), as I've found that if you simply lean back on them when they rub shoulders with you and say something akin to "piss off NOW, or I will happily put you into the curb" it does do the trick nicely and they will go away.


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## treebound (Oct 16, 2003)

MerckxTeamSC said:


> ...and another reason is that noticed during my last race, some dirty tactics employed by some to gain advantage... in the final sprint of the crit, this one rider jammed his brakes in front of another guy who was threatening to out-sprint his team mate... this resulted in the rider jamming his brakes and endoing meters from the finishing line... he broke a wheel and lost some skin...


If the guy who jammed his brakes on purpose in the final sprint did not get reported then he should have been. You saw it, you should have reported it or else next time it might be you going down. (deleted text due to Wednesdayitis)

Nothing funny about it.

Have a nice day.

=====
And also have a piece of cherry pie, would you like it warmed up and a scoop of vanilla ice cream to go with it?


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*And this....*



treebound said:


> If the guy who jammed his brakes on purpose in the final sprint did not get reported then he should have been. You saw it, you should have reported it or else next time it might be you going down. If it were me at the very least I'd be walking over to the braker's bike afterwards and clipping his brake cables, small cost, clear message, nuf said.
> 
> Nothing funny about it.
> 
> Have a nice day.


And this is where you get beat down in the parking lot after the race. I'd love to see you try to clip my brake cables after a race if I was boxing you in for a sprint I knew my teammate was going to win, and I didn't avert my line, it's your responsibility to go AROUND me, not the other way around my friend. You wouldn't get within 2 feet of my bike with a pair of cable cutters. I can guarantee that one.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*more stupid than that*



AlexCad5 said:


> How many miles can a group of riders realistically (and I imagine that this is often more a situation of circumstance at Cat 4/5) keep you back? If you're talking about a 60 mile race. Assuming there is no immediate breakaway, it's our impatience to get farther forward, than actual need. If you aren't in position toward the end of the race you have blown it anyway. Verdad? I've yet to do a RR so I'm actually asking, but in the Crits I've done, there is more than enough time to move back and forth through the pack about as many times as you might wish.


Frequently, it has nothing to do with being blocked, but just cutting corners on descents, crossing over to straighten out the line and go a tiny bit faster. Of course, that's the worst place to do it, because a car could be coming around the corner. I see it also in sprint finishes, and there your only hope is to be up near the front when the sprint starts.


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## treebound (Oct 16, 2003)

*the sponsor's ear*

.....


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*proving intent*

The whole issue here is rather simple. Proving the intent. If a person makes a mistake, goes out to lunch for a moment, is tired and has bonked so the brain goes ta ta, rolling the dice by "showing them" in a parking lot or in a line is really kind of asking for it.

Why taunt a person who could fold your spine after a sprint in the parking lot. What about the little guy or gal who goes to the car, gets the baseball bat, and beats you like a rented pack mule because of your "obvious" attempt etc etc etc 

This is the precise issue that really makes racing a sucky thing to do. Bad enough you inject, intent. You have to have the courage to endure the results of your actions. What if you ge approached by a sasquatch you curbed back a few miles and they ask you that ever popular question:

Hey Man, ever wonder what your right ball tastes like? Great, today you are going to find out. Yeah, that svcks.


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## treebound (Oct 16, 2003)

*Carefull there and go re-read his comment*



magnolialover said:


> And this is where you get beat down in the parking lot after the race. I'd love to see you try to clip my brake cables after a race if I was boxing you in for a sprint I knew my teammate was going to win, and I didn't avert my line, it's your responsibility to go AROUND me, not the other way around my friend. You wouldn't get within 2 feet of my bike with a pair of cable cutters. I can guarantee that one.


He said the guy "jammed on his brakes", said nothing about boxing him in or even sitting up, but jammed on his brakes. Big difference. Please re-read what he wrote. I have no problem with getting boxed in, apart from the _frustration_ of getting boxed in, serves me right for allowing myself to be placed in that position, better luck next time and all that. I do have a big problem with someone deliberately slamming on their breaks heading into the final sprint and forcing a crash when everyone is ramping up their speed for the sprint - hopefully you see the difference.

Have a good, _safe_, and fair within the rules season. Think I"m done with this thread. Apparently reading comprehension isn't practiced on Wednesdays.

Bye.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Get with it "wheel stealing" and muscling are what happen in races esp during crucial times - you do it or you ride in the wind. Pushing someone with a shoulder or hip is getting a bit over the top but I have done it when me and another guy were trying for the same wheel, a little contact is standard in races and usually not meant to make people crash just move people around. 

Issuing theats is not such a good idea you might run up aginst someone who will crash you just to remove you as a threat - this is not something I would do but i have seen it done.




RockyMountainRacer said:


> Indeed. The riders that try to intimidate and muscle others off a wheel or what not are the kind of folks that are bullies at heart. And bullies are cowards because they are afraid of what might happen to their results should they simply try to win with their legs rather than resort to intimidation tactics.
> 
> I have also found that if you make it clear to these folks that you will not back down when they attempt to intimidate you or scare you off a wheel, they will back off quite quickly and go find someone else to pick on. Screaming and cursing at them is usually overkill (though sometimes necessary), as I've found that if you simply lean back on them when they rub shoulders with you and say something akin to "piss off NOW, or I will happily put you into the curb" it does do the trick nicely and they will go away.


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## cbass (Nov 14, 2001)

*like a brick wall*



sinkingship said:


> Bill, regarding "that race" -- actually there was a break of 18 riders up the road, 5 of which were "that team". It was a combination of two teams blocking that allowed the gap to grow to be so big.


the blocking was definitely effective and helped out our break, but the initial gap was absolutely created by a bunch of guys literally slowing to a crawl and impeding any progress as a handful of teammates and a few others rode away. several more guys (including me) literally bumped shoulder to shoulder to bust through the "wall" of guys blocking the front.

this all went down just a few minutes into the race.

now i'm told that once our break got away the "blocking" became much more traditional and fair, sitting on any chase attempt and shutting it down.

in the end the pack was very close to catching the break and would have done so given another lap.

i'm not saying this was dirty or unfair, but it certainly pushed the limits a bit. the narrow road and yellow-line rule made it tough enough to advance so i don't think the aggressive blocking was really necessary.

i'll tell you one thing, it was a lot nicer riding that course in an 18-man break than in a 75 rider field! at least we don't have to deal with that course any more. the new venue sounds a lot better.


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## RockyMountainRacer (Mar 12, 2002)

32and3cross said:


> Get with it "wheel stealing" and muscling are what happen in races esp during crucial times - you do it or you ride in the wind. Pushing someone with a shoulder or hip is getting a bit over the top but I have done it when me and another guy were trying for the same wheel, a little contact is standard in races and usually not meant to make people crash just move people around.
> 
> Issuing theats is not such a good idea you might run up aginst someone who will crash you just to remove you as a threat - this is not something I would do but i have seen it done.


Ah yes, sort of a "pre-emptive strike" if you will? Dirty tricks indeed.

In any event, although a little contact does seem to occur in most races I've been in, the fact remains that the rule book states that a racer is allowed to hold his line and the wheel in front of him. Therefore, if someone is attempting to move him off his line he is well within his rights to defend his position aggressively and make it clear that he will not be moved around.


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## RockyMountainRacer (Mar 12, 2002)

RockyMountainRacer said:


> the fact remains that the rule book states that a racer is allowed to hold his line and the wheel in front of him.


I think that's only in the "un-written rules of race peloton etiqutte" book actually. The one I wrote anyway...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

RockyMountainRacer said:


> Ah yes, sort of a "pre-emptive strike" if you will? Dirty tricks indeed.


Yea very dirty - unfourtunatly I have seen it happen and had someone try to do it to me - luckly I am hard to knock down sometimes.



RockyMountainRacer said:


> In any event, although a little contact does seem to occur in most races I've been in, the fact remains that the rule book states that a racer is allowed to hold his line and the wheel in front of him. Therefore, if someone is attempting to move him off his line he is well within his rights to defend his position aggressively and make it clear that he will not be moved around.


Yeah but what is "your" wheel is subjective 2 miles from the finish line you open a gap to the wheel infront of you I would decided that was no longer your wheel and since I could get my bars are in front of yours I would win. you could get really mad about that or you could put it down to just racing - there are ways to defend your wheel without pushing or making threats. Contact happens fairly often in my races but like I said its mostly just racing and not people trying to hurt each other.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Spelling not a strong point either...*



treebound said:


> He said the guy "jammed on his brakes", said nothing about boxing him in or even sitting up, but jammed on his brakes. Big difference. Please re-read what he wrote. I have no problem with getting boxed in, apart from the _frustration_ of getting boxed in, serves me right for allowing myself to be placed in that position, better luck next time and all that. I do have a big problem with someone deliberately slamming on their breaks heading into the final sprint and forcing a crash when everyone is ramping up their speed for the sprint - hopefully you see the difference.
> 
> Have a good, _safe_, and fair within the rules season. Think I"m done with this thread. Apparently reading comprehension isn't practiced on Wednesdays.
> 
> Bye.


1 "L" in careful my friend.

I was trying to say, lots of things happen in a bike race. Some good, some bad. It's a race. Leave it on the race course. I wouldn't really care what I did or what someone else perceived I did, if they tried to mess with my bike post race, they'd have a fist in the face. Simple as that. As I seem to remember (from some old posts of yours) you haven't raced a road bike much. So race some this season, and get back to me when you have some more experience under your belt, and see what really happens out there on the courses and races.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

RockyMountainRacer said:


> ... the fact remains that the rule book states that a racer is allowed to hold his line and the wheel in front of him.


What rule is that? I haven't been able to find it.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

*Not even close.*



magnolialover said:


> This my friend is where you're wrong...
> 
> Blocking goes on ALL THE TIME in pro 1-2 races. Always happens, and it happens in pro races all the time. This is a tactic, and sometimes a useful tactic. The only way to break it is to ride through the block. So I digress, it is indeed "pro" to block. You've got a guy or guys up the road, you're going to do whatever it is you can to give them the best chance at succeeding.


"Real" pros would NEVER put all their guys on the front of the bunch across the road to block, NEVER. At worst they might roll into the front line of guys chasing and soft pedal but even this will get you shoved out of the way. Mostly just roll around the front to keep things unorganized. I know because I've asked DIV I riders.


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## bimini (Jul 2, 2003)

*The only time I got into a yelling and screaming contest*

Is after another rider and I made contact earlier in the race and then later in the race the same rider came in and intentionally tried to muscle me off the wheel I was on. When I stuck the elbows out and pushed back he started yelling and screaming, telling me I was a wreckless rider. I yelled and screamed back that he was the freeking idiot that cut into ME and almost took ME out. This lasted a short while and he went up the line and bullied his way in front of someone else.

It really pissed me off. First, the earlier contact was caused by him. (at least from my perspective and the perspective of a friend that was behind me). I was behind his wheel and there was an attack going on at the front. He was about 3 rows back. He went off to the left like he was going around to follow the attack. I moved up to his old position so I could follow around if needed or at least capture 3rd wheel. Then he changed his mind and ducked back in without looking to his right before making his move. His pedal brushed my front spokes and I heard the loud ping, ping ping and I was fishtailing back and forth 3-4 feet on the wet road. I'm not sure how I keep the bike upright. It could of been nasty, because we were towards the front of a fast moving tight peloton on the flats. I was already worked up from the near disaster and when the SOB came back to intentionally muscle me off the course. I got real POed. When he started yelling, I yelled, cused and waved my arms around like a mad Italian. 

He is clearly someone I don't treat as a friend in any of the races since then.



RockyMountainRacer said:


> Indeed. The riders that try to intimidate and muscle others off a wheel or what not are the kind of folks that are bullies at heart. And bullies are cowards because they are afraid of what might happen to their results should they simply try to win with their legs rather than resort to intimidation tactics.
> 
> I have also found that if you make it clear to these folks that you will not back down when they attempt to intimidate you or scare you off a wheel, they will back off quite quickly and go find someone else to pick on. Screaming and cursing at them is usually overkill (though sometimes necessary), as I've found that if you simply lean back on them when they rub shoulders with you and say something akin to "piss off NOW, or I will happily put you into the curb" it does do the trick nicely and they will go away.


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

asgelle said:


> What rule is that? I haven't been able to find it.


You just can't resist trying to start a flame war can you? You know very well that nothing good is going to ever come of you and RMR exchanging "pleasantries". I think it's pretty obvious that all RMR is saying is that he's allowed to hold his line and to do what he sees fit within the rules to make sure that happens. Whether it's written in that context in "the rule book" is debateable, but your question was obviously rhetorical.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

The Human G-Nome said:


> You just can't resist trying to start a flame war can you? You know very well that nothing good is going to ever come of you and RMR exchanging "pleasantries". I think it's pretty obvious that all RMR is saying is that he's allowed to hold his line and to do what he sees fit within the rules to make sure that happens. Whether it's written in that context in "the rule book" is debateable, but your question was obviously rhetorical.


I had no intention of starting any kind of flame war and asked a simple question, and no it was not rhetorical. As far as I know, there is no such rule regarding being allowed to hold your line and the wheel in front of you, but I'm open to the fact that I might be wrong and want to know for sure. As far as I know, the only rules that comes close to applying are:
USCF
1O6. No rider may make an abrupt motion so as to interfere with the forward progress of another rider, either intentionally or by accident [relegation or disqualification; possible 20 days suspension if a crash results]. 
1O7. Dangerous Rider. Any rider who appears to present a danger to the other competitors may be disqualified by the Chief Referee, either before or during a race.
3B10. Foul Riding. A rider near the edge of a road who leaves a gap sufficient for an opponent to pass may not suddenly close the gap upon being overtaken [relegation or disqualification]. 

with similar rules under ACA. None of these says anything about holding your place in a line or stopping others from getting behind a wheel in front of you.

As for what RMR might have meant, it's hard to read the phrase "the fact remains that the rule book states ..." As anything other than he (she?) is telling readers that some organization's rule book has this written down. If what was meant was that this is some unwritten code, it would have been easy enough to write that instead.


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## jim hubbard (Mar 10, 2002)

*the list*

Evil
-punching
-headbutt
-pump in the front wheel
-pushing someone into a ditch
-pushing someone into a storm grate
-hooking a bunch
-locking breaks to take down a bunch

dirty
-shoulder charge
-hip into handlebars
-not holding your line
-leaning on someone
-knee into hamstring

Standard
-undercutting in a crit
-blocking passive and aggressive

I have seen all of the above done and done some of it. It can be a bad world out there so play nice, least someone pick from the evil category.


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