# Shimano Hubs - Ultegra 6800 vs. Dura-Ace 9000



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Hi all,

Now that both of these hub have the "digital" bearing adjustment, there only appear to be three differences between these:

1) Weight, because 9000 uses Ti.

2) 9000 is available in more drilling options whereas 6800 is limited to 32 and 36 holes.

3) Price

Are there any other differences anybody knows about? Are the bearings any larger/smaller, more durable/less durable, roll better/or not? Is the Ti cassette carrier or other Ti parts an issue as far as wear, being that Ti is a softer metal?

Thanks in advance!


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

It used to be that DA had better seals than Ultegra. I dont think this is the case any longer. To me, the differences are weight (Ti on DA) and number of spokes. Bearing balls are larger 3/16 vs. 5/32 but you wont be able to discern the difference and if you do you could always upgrade the class of bearing balls up a notch if $15 burn a hole in your pocket.
The Ultegra 6800 is a great value hub; more hub than most folks could ever use although rarely admit.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Thanks DC! Are you saying Dura-Ace has larger bearing balls? I would guess that larger bearing balls would be more durable, but weigh more. I would have thought it would be the other way around as Dura-Ace is usually going for the prize of least weight.

But yes, Ultegra is definitely the best bang for the buck. Add $300 for Dura-Ace.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Is the Ti cassette carrier or other Ti parts an issue as far as wear, being that Ti is a softer metal?


Ti is used to INCREASE durability. You've already been told as much in another thread.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Ti is used to INCREASE durability. You've already been told as much in another thread.


Interesting that a softer metal increases durability. Yet, hasn't it been noted that Dura-Ace Ti cassette cogs wear faster than Steel? Steel chain vs. Ti cogs - chain wins. Ti hub carrier vs. Al cassette spider - winner?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Interesting that a softer metal increases durability. Yet, *hasn't it been noted that Dura-Ace Ti cassette cogs wear faster than Steel?* Steel chain vs. Ti cogs - chain wins. Ti hub carrier vs. Al cassette spider - winner?


Ultegra has a steel freehub? I thought it was alloy, which most non-ti freehubs have and is less durable than titanium.

Whatever, durability is not an issue with titanium freehubs.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Thanks DC! *Are you saying Dura-Ace has larger bearing balls? *I would guess that larger bearing balls would be more durable, but weigh more. I would have thought it would be the other way around as Dura-Ace is usually going for the prize of least weight.
> 
> But yes, Ultegra is definitely the best bang for the buck. Add $300 for Dura-Ace.


Smaller for the front, same diameter but more for the rear. Wheels Manufacturing used to carry different grades so DA grade balls could be used in an Ultegra hub. Not sure what the real life difference is but the option was there.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, Ultegra has a steel freehub, which is primarily why it's so much heavier than the dura ace. Steel is harder than Ti, but Ti is harder than aluminum so the cassette won't dig into it significantly. 

I think Ti is too soft for cassette gears though. The Ti cogs wear extremely fast. I only use Ultegra now. The Dura ace cassette might be okay for a wheel only used for certain applications.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

dcgriz said:


> Smaller for the front, same diameter but more for the rear. Wheels Manufacturing used to carry different grades so DA grade balls could be used in an Ultegra hub. Not sure what the real life difference is but the option was there.


Smaller in the front, same size but more in the rear? Interesting. I have to wonder what the motive was in this design. I would think larger and more would be more durable while smaller and fewer would have the weight advantage.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Ultegra has a steel freehub? I thought it was alloy, which most non-ti freehubs have and is less durable than titanium.
> 
> Whatever, durability is not an issue with titanium freehubs.


Non-Ti freehubs are Al? I stand corrected. Understood.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> *Non-Ti freehubs are Al?* I stand corrected. Understood.


No all. But many. I assumed Ultegra was alloy but I was wrong about that per Changingleaf's post.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

changingleaf said:


> Yes, Ultegra has a steel freehub, which is primarily why it's so much heavier than the dura ace. Steel is harder than Ti, but Ti is harder than aluminum so the cassette won't dig into it significantly.
> 
> I think Ti is too soft for cassette gears though. The Ti cogs wear extremely fast. I only use Ultegra now. The Dura ace cassette might be okay for a wheel only used for certain applications.



Ahhh, OK. I've heard some horror stories about cassette spiders chewing into freehubs. According to one bike mechanic I talked to, this is more an issue of how tightly the cassette fits onto the freehub, than anything else.

Sounds like the Ti Dura-Ace cassette would be the "race day only" choice. Since I don't race, it's irrelevant.

Thanks for the clarification!


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Are there any other differences anybody knows about?


Dura Ace 9000 will be extinct in about 3-4 months.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Notvintage said:


> Dura Ace 9000 will be extinct in about 3-4 months.



Huh?? Do tell.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Huh?? Do tell.


Google "dura ace 9100" as it's all over the place. That's why Dura Ace 9000 stuff is marked down heavily everywhere. 9000 is past the end of it's design cycle.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Nothing to tell yet unless someone is aware of insider info. DuraAce is due for its update this summer; whatever this may be.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Does that mean that my Dura Ace-equipped bike will immediately lose 50% of its resale value? 

Seriously, I think the Shimano non-Dura Ace hubs are a little long in the tooth. They may be fine for noobs (who don't know better) and folks who obsess about durability/maintainability, but with the move towards lower spoke-count wheels and wide-spread availability of very light hubs for less cost, their feature set (spoke count, weight) speak old-school.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bluesky6 said:


> Does that mean that my Dura Ace-equipped bike will immediately lose 50% of its resale value?
> 
> Seriously, I think the Shimano non-Dura Ace hubs are a little long in the tooth. They may be fine for noobs (who don't know better) and folks who obsess about durability/maintainability, but with the move towards lower spoke-count wheels and wide-spread availability of very light hubs for less cost, their feature set (spoke count, weight) speak old-school.


Doesn't everything eventually become old school? If I got 9000 hubs for 50% off, by all means I would bite!

Do I obsess about durability and maintainability? You bet!


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Do I obsess about durability and maintainability? You bet!


Probably the same way I obsess about component weights


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

bluesky6 said:


> Probably the same way I obsess about component weights


U wouldn't be on Shimano if u were obsessed about component weight. Curious how they address this with 9001.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

bluesky6 said:


> Seriously, I think the Shimano non-Dura Ace hubs are a little long in the tooth. They may be fine for noobs (who don't know better) and folks who obsess about durability/maintainability, but with the move towards lower spoke-count wheels and wide-spread availability of very light hubs for less cost, their feature set (spoke count, weight) speak old-school.


Some may argue that picking the right hub for the job it's a sign of "knowing better" of what is merely true over what is important. Others may argue than picking components based on image impressions is a sure sign of a noob saturated in marketing kool-aid.
What should be obvious to all is that cycling is more diverse than just racing and unless one competes at high levels with peers, 4 spokes more or less won't make a lick of speed difference to your average Fred in his Sunday club ride no matter how "racy" he may be kitted-out.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

IMO titanium carriers are used for two reasons -

To prevent cog indentation that is prevalent with Al.
For weight saving over steel carriers.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bluesky6 said:


> Does that mean that my Dura Ace-equipped bike will immediately lose 50% of its resale value?
> 
> Seriously, I think the Shimano non-Dura Ace hubs are a little long in the tooth. They may be fine for noobs (who don't know better) and folks who obsess about durability/maintainability, but with the move towards lower spoke-count wheels and wide-spread availability of very light hubs for less cost, their feature set (spoke count, weight) speak old-school.


Obsessing over durability and maintainability at least has some payoff. Obsessing over grams and low spoke count it at best a waste of time.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> IMO titanium carriers are used for two reasons -
> 
> To prevent cog indentation that is prevalent with Al.
> For weight saving over steel carriers.


Or I could play Devil's advocate and say Ti carriers cost more, while weighing more than Al and not preventing cog indentation as well as steel.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Or I could play Devil's advocate and say Ti carriers cost more, while weighing more than Al *and not preventing cog indentation as well as steel.*



.....and you'd be wrong.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Yeah, you'd be dead wrong on that. I could show you Ti cassette bodies with 6000 miles on them that look brand new. And alloy ones with 500 miles on them that are ready for the pile. There's no argument to be had here.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

November Dave said:


> Yeah, you'd be dead wrong on that. I could show you Ti cassette bodies with 6000 miles on them that look brand new. And alloy ones with 500 miles on them that are ready for the pile. There's no argument to be had here.




OK Dave and Jay. So I am getting out of this that Al are the only freehub bodies that have this gouging problem? Neither Steel nor Ti have any problems with this?

Shimano Ultegra uses steel, Dura-Ace uses Ti? Who uses Al?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> OK Dave and Jay. So I am getting out of this that Al are the only freehub bodies that have this gouging problem? Neither Steel nor Ti have any problems with this?
> 
> Shimano Ultegra uses steel, Dura-Ace uses Ti? Who uses Al?


Correct.

Pretty much any hub that isn't heavy and doesn't use Ti would be using aluminum. I think DT Swiss is an example. Alchemy was the only one I've ever had that was alloy and it did indeed gouge pretty bad. From what I understand it's much less of a potential problem for campy.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Some aluminum freehubs use steel strips on the leading edge of the cog engagement area. Novatec calls this biteguard or something. The pure race wheels I use from BWW also have this, it seems to work sorta OK, but still leaves marks. 

TI freehubs are better, my other wheelsets have that (WI, DA 9000). Also check the replacement price for Aluminum freehubs, they are darn pricey, almost as much as the whole rear hub from many suppliers like Novatec. 
Pay me now, or pay me later.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Correct.
> 
> Pretty much any hub that isn't heavy and doesn't use Ti would be using aluminum. I think DT Swiss is an example. Alchemy was the only one I've ever had that was alloy and it did indeed gouge pretty bad. From what I understand it's much less of a potential problem for campy.


So is it heavy? Does it say Ti?

If no to both, it must be Al!!!


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Obsessing over durability and maintainability at least has some payoff. Obsessing over grams and low spoke count it at best a waste of time.


Judgmental are we? 

To each his/her own. It's a free Internet (at least as long as you click on the ads...


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

5 month old thread dredge. But I was reading this hub review:

Hub Review - Fairwheel Bikes Blog 

Interestingly, except for the WI T11 hub, every one has an Al freehub body. I guess cassette gouging and early failure is worth the weight savings for many, or these wouldn't exist. Oh well.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

Lombard said:


> 5 month old thread dredge. But I was reading this hub review:
> 
> Hub Review - Fairwheel Bikes Blog
> 
> Interestingly, except for the WI T11 hub, every one has an Al freehub body. I guess cassette gouging and early failure is worth the weight savings for many, or these wouldn't exist. Oh well.


Aluminum is also less expensive than titanium so the contribution of that individual component to the price and margin of the final assembly can be substantially different depending on raw material cost of said component.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

craiger_ny said:


> Aluminum is also less expensive than titanium so the contribution of that individual component to the price and margin of the final assembly can be substantially different depending on raw material cost of said component.



Al may be less expensive, but did you happen to notice that the only hub with a Ti freehub body was the least expensive hub in the review?


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm always surprised that people don't factor in long term cost and durability if they are riding more than a 2-3 thousand miles per year. I started buying DA hubs in 1988 as 7 speed(7400), converted them to 8/9/10 a few years later and am still riding them occasionally. I bought 7700 about 15 years ago and still use them. I bought 7800 about 9 years ago. 1 set is my primary wheelset on my steel ride and I just put a Wheels Mnfg. 11 speed conversion cassette on the other and use it with my DA 9000 group. Miles on all hubs are in the 10 - 30000+ mile range with only an annual bearing clean and a couple of new freehubs for servicing. All of my hubs are 24 - 32 spokes. They are hard to beat when it comes to $$/mile. Unless you are racing and must have carbon, a DA 24/28 hub set with HED rims is as good as any wheel on the market.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

steelbikerider said:


> I'm always surprised that people don't factor in long term cost and durability if they are riding more than a 2-3 thousand miles per year. I started buying DA hubs in 1988 as 7 speed(7400), converted them to 8/9/10 a few years later and am still riding them occasionally. I bought 7700 about 15 years ago and still use them. I bought 7800 about 9 years ago. 1 set is my primary wheelset on my steel ride and I just put a Wheels Mnfg. 11 speed conversion cassette on the other and use it with my DA 9000 group. Miles on all hubs are in the 10 - 30000+ mile range with only an annual bearing clean and a couple of new freehubs for servicing. All of my hubs are 24 - 32 spokes. They are hard to beat when it comes to $$/mile. Unless you are racing and must have carbon, a DA 24/28 hub set with HED rims is as good as any wheel on the market.


My hubset of choice is DA too. I have two sets on the go - a set of fall/winter/rollers/spring wheels with 32/32 and a set of summer wheels with 24/28. Their current cone adjustment system is incredibly good.

I even have two sets of DA hubs still in their boxes - waiting for the holy grail of rim and spoke combo to come along. I have a feeling that the Ryde Pulse Comp rim might be it. They're sitting here.

I do quite a bit of rim testing and for those wheels I use the more budget-minded BHS Bitex hubs.

For your DA freehub servicing, have you considered getting a Morningstar Freehub Buddy - if any are still available as Paul Morningstar is no longer with us.


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## steelbikerider (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes, I have the Freehub Buddy. Good tool.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

The Morningstar FB is one tool I don't have and wish I had. Can it be used with the 9000 series?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> I even have two sets of DA hubs still in their boxes - waiting for the holy grail of rim and spoke combo to come along. I have a feeling that the Ryde Pulse Comp rim might be it. They're sitting here.



I checked these out. A 17.8mm internal and 22.2mm external? That seems like a very thin brake track.


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