# Does every racer - pro and amateur - use Specialized Turbo Cotton tires?



## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

And if not, why?

According to Velo News - Where the rubber meets the road: What makes cycling tires fast? | VeloNews.com - the range of watts that account for the rolling resistance of race tires is massive - from 60 watts - to 120 watts (set) with the tires they tested. 

Even being "fair" in the selection of tires - picking a $160 set of Schwalbe tubulars - there's a 20-watt advantage to the Spec' Cottons. 20 Watts. Imagine, on your last race or hard ride, just upping your avg by 20 watts.

We read/hear about all the watt savings from aero wheels, frames, helmets, etc. but those are A. much smaller than this tire test and B. only when you're the one in the wind. The tires' rolling resistance doesn't care about your headwind or lack thereof. 

So... what am I missing? Are the test results bull****, or is every rider currently switching to the Spec' Cottons?


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

Pros pretty much use tubular tires, and they did not test any tubular tires in that article. 

They also did not test some of the fastest existing clinchers, such as the continental supersonic or TT or force/attack. It also doesn't have results from newer tires such as the Vittoria graphene tires or Michelin power.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

cobra_kai said:


> Pros pretty much use tubular tires, and they did not test any tubular tires in that article.


Several tubulars tested. The two I ref'ed - Specialized Cotton and Schwalbe - are tubular


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

No, they are open tubular. Very different.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

cobra_kai said:


> No, they are open tubular. Very different.


Roger that. But, the question still (somewhat) stands - who would not spend a few dollars more to save 20-50 watts? I'm having a hard time accepting that these ranges are real.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

Here's another site that has tested a lot of tires: Bicycle Rolling Resistance | Rolling Resistance Tests

They have a similar order to the rankings, although the spread is much smaller. However keep in mind their test is done at 29 km/h while the velonews one was done at 40 km/h so that accounts for some of the difference. 

Also check on Tom A's blog blatherboutbikes for testing of bother aerodynamics and resistance. 

Flo also recently did a large tire wind tunnel study looking at both aerodynamics and rolling resistance of tires on their wheels. 

Josh Poertner at Silca has had several interesting blog articles recently looking at rolling resistance and aerodynamics and how it is affected by pressure and road surface.

There's lots of sources of good information out there.

edited for typo


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> So... what am I missing? Are the test results bull****, or is every rider currently switching to the Spec' Cottons?


Maybe in the real world, riding on asphalt, doesn't provide the same giant wattage benefits as testing on a "steel diamond-plate drum"


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

Actually they've been found to correlate pretty well: Training and Racing With a Power Meter Journal: Crr - roller vs. field test results

I wouldn't put much stock in the exact wattage values but the relative differences should be fairly similar.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

The performance difference (Crr) between a set of Specialized Turbo Cottons and a set of Tufo S33's is obvious. But when you take a set of Turbo Cottons and ride them back to back with the latest version of a Conti GP4000, for example, the difference in Crr becomes very much less noticeable. Considering aero, durability and cost the GP4000 is way more attractive than 2W/tire the Cotton has over the GP4000...For me. And I would say I have a healthy obsession looking for free speed. But I still have limited income. And not being a pro or top amateur I tend to run tires longer than I should. Given how thin the tread is on the Cotton to begin with they will never be as reliable as I need a tire to be.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

+1. I won't give up my GP4000s any time soon. From what I can tell the Turbo Cottons are not aero at all.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


> Roger that. But, the question still (somewhat) stands - *who would not spend a few dollars more to save 20-50 watts?*


People who know it's BS.

Just an anecdote but my speeds are pretty similar when I use tougher tires for crappy spring road conditions. Pretty sure I'd know if I was putting out an extra 50 watts to do it. So either I have a spike in fitness in the early spring after goofing off for a couple months, I'm putting in much more effort and don't notice it, or that watts savings between rugged tires and cotton race tires isn't 50 watts. I'm going with the third option.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I think Pro's ride on the tires of their sponsor. Amateur cyclists without sponsors just buy what they buy and I do not know about that either. Locally all the racer types are racing cyclocross and again I do not know what tires they prefer. 

However in the world I live in of recreational road cyclists I would say the most popular tire in this area is the gatorskin as it has very good durability. I ride Michelin service course at the moment but I generally shop sale items and will ride something different next time most likely.

Anyway I would not spend extra for more watts. I just go for bike rides with friends or solo and am not in training for the big race or anything.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

BikeLayne said:


> I ride Michelin service course at the moment but I generally shop sale items and will ride something different next time most likely.


This is a great example of what I'm getting at - you're giving up 25 watts by not riding (example) Conti 4000s IIs. 25 watts! Those tires are on sale right now for $78 for a pair. If you've ridden with a power meter, you know that jumping from say, 250 watts to 275 is an enormous feat. Just hard to believe that there's that much advantage rolling around for $50 or so


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## NordieBoy (Oct 13, 2016)

Our roads are generally course chip seal, I wonder what I'm giving up by running 28mm Roubaix Pro's at 65psi?
A Specialized 2 for 1 deal is hard to pass up.


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## JDCowboy (Jun 7, 2004)

OldZaskar said:


> Those tires are on sale right now for $78 for a pair.


Who has them on sale for $78 a pair?


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

JDCowboy said:


> Who has them on sale for $78 a pair?


No way, I'm giving that up - and have all you guys reaping those free watts!
(Pretty sure it's Excel Sports that had/has them that cheap)


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

OldZaskar said:


> No way, I'm giving that up - and have all you guys reaping those free watts!
> (Pretty sure it's Excel Sports that had/has them that cheap)





JDCowboy said:


> Who has them on sale for $78 a pair?


Don't worry, he can keep his secret $78 source. You can get them for $60 a pair. :thumbsup:
Continental GP4000S II Twinpack - Folding Tyres - Ribble Cycles


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Most serious racers I know, myself included, race Conti GP 4000s II. 

I tried the Specialized model right below the cottons but the performance in the wet was so abysmal I ditched them for the Contis. 

CRR is a big consideration, but also have to consider flat protection and tire wear, especially at those prices. The Contis check a lot of the boxes for people not getting their stuff for free.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

JDCowboy said:


> Who has them on sale for $78 a pair?


Saw them on wiggle or one of those uk sites for 70 bucks a pair yesterday.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

tlg said:


> Don't worry, he can keep his secret $78 source. You can get them for $60 a pair. :thumbsup:
> Continental GP4000S II Twinpack - Folding Tyres - Ribble Cycles



Dang.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

OldZaskar said:


> This is a great example of what I'm getting at - you're giving up 25 watts by not riding (example) Conti 4000s IIs. 25 watts! Those tires are on sale right now for $78 for a pair. If you've ridden with a power meter, you know that jumping from say, 250 watts to 275 is an enormous feat. Just hard to believe that there's that much advantage rolling around for $50 or so



I tried a set of Conti GP II's once and they flatted on every ride and I was glad to be rid of them. What I need being a recreational rider is a tire that will go the distance with durability to handle pot holes, chip seal, road debris, some gravel, hard packed dirt and traction in the rain. . One thing about a flat tire is it takes time to repair and you cannot make that up on a normal ride again.

So for me durability is much more important then watts. Besides those watt tests on a steel drum have nothing to do with life on the road. It's baloney designed to get you to pay $78.00 for a junk tire.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I've never had any luck with Continentals either, but pretty decent luck with Vittorias of equivalent level. Go figure.

I think the gains or losses (apples to apples) are overstated, although Specialized has put significant money into their tire development program. I just can't afford to change tires that much- I need to get more than a couple races out of a set. Tires aren't losing me races. I can do that all on my own.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> I've never had any luck with Continentals either, but pretty decent luck with Vittorias of equivalent level. Go figure.
> 
> I think the gains or losses (apples to apples) are overstated, although Specialized has put significant money into their tire development program. I just can't afford to change tires that much- I need to get more than a couple races out of a set. Tires aren't losing me races. I can do that all on my own.


 Since you are racing I can see looking to every advantage.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

BikeLayne said:


> Besides those watt tests on a steel drum have nothing to do with life on the road. It's baloney designed to get you to pay $78.00 for a junk tire.


Pretty much everyone who actually knows about this subject disagrees with you. So, there's that.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> Pretty much everyone who actually knows about this subject disagrees with you. So, there's that.


I guess that is a pretty good argument. However I will stick to a tire that is not flat on the bottom anyway. It's my favorite kind.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Vitoria Corsa G+ graphene, $76 for a pair (after a 10% discount if you buy 2)
Vittoria Corsa G+ Clincher Graphene Road Tyre | ProBikeKit.com


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

BikeLayne said:


> I guess that is a pretty good argument. However I will stick to a tire that is not flat on the bottom anyway. It's my favorite kind.


Tire choice is about trade offs. If flat protection is your only priority why are using pneumatic tires? Solid would be a better choice.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Tire choice is about trade offs. If flat protection is your only priority why are using pneumatic tires? Solid would be a better choice.


Well that would certainly help the flat tire situation but I think I will stick with my Michelin Service course for a while. After my GP 4000 II tires turned out to be a disaster I went back to Gatorskins and they ride kind of like a solid tire. However I moved on to Michelin Endurance which I liked and now I bought four Michelin Service Course which is a faster tire and very nice all around tire. I only have 600 miles so far but I took them out gravel riding and they were fine. Kind of slippery. Not enough miles to say for sure how they will hold up but so far so good. The Pro 4 series is discontinued so after this batch of tires is worn out I do not know what I will try out.

Basically with all purchases the consumer will assess their personal needs, look at the options available, price and whatever and then buy accordingly.

Back in the day when I was a very young cyclist I wanted performance so like the other performance oriented cyclist we rode on tubulars (sew-ups back then). Pro's race on them so I figure they are still the best tire for ultimate performance.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

I've had great luck with GP 4000s. So has my partner. This includes many thousands of miles of racing and recreational riding on roads of varying quality, including gravel. It's not a bad tire.









Meanwhile I've never understood peoples' phobia of flatting. "Durable" tires may not flat often, but they handle horribly and cost a lot of extra watts. Why? To avoid four flats a year? To stretch a $40 tire's life to three years instead of one? 
Life is too short for that.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

JohnStonebarger said:


> I've had great luck with GP 4000s. So has my partner. This includes many thousands of miles of racing and recreational riding on roads of varying quality, including gravel. It's not a bad tire.
> 
> View attachment 316902
> 
> ...


 If you get out in the country far enough around here you lose cell service. Out on Browns Valley road which is a gravel road with severe steep pitches you can ruin a performance tire easy enough. Without cell service you then get to walk for miles. So try and walk in gravel with cycling shoes or barefoot for miles. It's not good. 

Anyway for me it's not a phobia but rather selecting proper equipment for the activity. I do not race so I do not need a race tire. I prefer a road tire that has the best performance while also being tough enough for pot holes, glass, debris, gravel, hard pack. The Gatorskin works, The Michelin Endurance works, and so far the Service course works but it may turn out to be to light. I may try one of the all season tires. Road tire with some tread may work better for road and gravel.. Maybe with winter upon us I might as well try a set on my back-up wheels. Riding gravel is probably the most fun in cycling for me currently.

I like a tire that performs well for the activity. I like a tire that will get me home again.


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## JohnStonebarger (Jan 22, 2004)

Some tires do both -- perform well and get you home. They just cost a little more and don't last as long.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

JohnStonebarger said:


> Some tires do both -- perform well and get you home. They just cost a little more and don't last as long.



I think that is what I am trying to do. I tried the Conti GP 4000 but it was just not tough enough. If it was holding air it was a pleasure to ride on. It just would not hold air for more then 20 miles. Rough roads and all I guess. Most of the road riders around here just ride Gatorskins and I would to if they just did not feel like wagon wheels. I think it's that bullet proof side belt that makes it ride without any hint of suppleness. 

Back in the day I loved the Clement del Mundo. It was not a clincher but that was the normal thing back then.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

This seems like it's turned into a "using a racing tire as a training tire", but that's not where I was going with my previous posts. 

I certainly wouldn't train on GP4000s. I have cheap Vittoria or Vredsteins for that. I don't care about rolling fast in training, I care about rolling period, with good flat protection and durability. 

Race wheels and tires are for races only so they don't get f'ed up in regular training.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> This seems like it's turned into a "using a racing tire as a training tire", but that's not where I was going with my previous posts.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't train on GP4000s. I have cheap Vittoria or Vredsteins for that. I don't care about rolling fast in training, I care about rolling period, with good flat protection and durability.
> 
> Race wheels and tires are for races only so they don't get f'ed up in regular training.


 And since I do not race I just want a good all around tire to ride on. There is no getting around flat tires but the fewer the better as far as I am concerned.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

GP4000s are reasonably durable. For the last couple of years, I have been using a GP4000 front tire and a Gator Skin back tire. I spend a lot of time training indoors due to my "lovely" work schedule. I find this combo pretty solid and both seem to wear at about the same rate and doesn't require to tire rotation.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

I train on gp4000. When you can get them for 25-30 dollars per tire from the uk websites it's hard to find a much cheaper tire. I wouldn't recommend them for gravel though as they have no side wall protection.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

BikeLayne said:


> I tried a set of Conti GP II's once and they flatted on every ride and I was glad to be rid of them.


And yet in the past 10K miles on Conti GP 4000 IIs I have had exactly two flats. Either I am incredibly lucky or you are incredibly unlucky but don't blame the tires.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> And yet in the past 10K miles on Conti GP 4000 IIs I have had exactly two flats. Either I am incredibly lucky or you are incredibly unlucky but don't blame the tires.


I am not blaming the tires. I think they are probably excellent racing tires. It's my fault for buying tires that are not suited for the cycling I participate in. 

Well on second thought the first tire did rip down the middle with zero miles on it. Only 80psi. That should not ever happen. And then the rear tire blew out because I hit a pot hole (100-105psi) and it had a hole in the sidewall big enough to stick my finger in. I came close to crashing because the tire failed. That should not have happened. However I guess other people seem to like the tire. 

For me I moved on and will not re-visit that tire. I have moved on from Continental overall and currently doing fine with Michelin. No problems at all. 

I just got back from a short ride (23 mi) with my friend and we both enjoyed the day. No flats or problems with our bikes. He has a Roubaix which he loves. But we Chit chatted and he has talked me into joining "SIRS" so I figure I will do that. We could possibly bring cycling to the Seniors in our area. It would be nice if there was some retired guys out there besides the two of us. Well actually there are 3 of us and tomorrow we are going to ride Cienaga Valley which is an amazing and beautiful valley. It's a 35mi loop with a good climb up to the summit. Just right for old guys.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

JDCowboy said:


> Who has them on sale for $78 a pair?


Planet Bike is having very low prices on Continental tires. I used that price for a price match at biketiresdirect, drove over in 10 minutes and picked them up. 
Please, don't everyone decide to move to Portland! It's so wet you know.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

MerlinAma said:


> Planet Bike is having very low prices on Continental tires. I used that price for a price match at biketiresdirect, drove over in 10 minutes and picked them up.
> Please, don't everyone decide to move to Portland! It's so wet you know.



I love Portland and I can run full fenders.


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