# Solid rubber knowledge



## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

People have tried to invent and market solid rubber tires over the years, but none have been particularly successful. Saint Sheldon makes it sound like any attempt is doomed to fail and anyone who tries is a snake-oil salesman.

I'm certainly no engineer, but this seems like a solvable problem. Is it a question of planned obsolescence - pneumatic tubes keep you coming back? Is it that no one has been able to balance comfort, durability, weight and price?

I want my bike to feel like it's riding on air... but never have a flat... and I want my jetpack.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Materials science needs to come a loooooong way to develop a solid material (that's as light as a gas) and exhibits similar properties. Perhaps once they figure out how to alter physics or find an alternative universe.


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

Don't forget tunability. If you weigh 125 lbs or 225 lbs, would you run the same "pressure"? 

If you don't want flats and are willing to deal with the goo, tubeless is pretty dang good.


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## bobf (Apr 3, 2015)

A cartoon I saw in an engineering magazine 15 years ago:

Frowning man says, "It's 2001! Where's my flying car??"


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

Not only is solid rubber significantly heavier it creates significantly more rolling resistance than an inflatable tire. Rolling resistance is due to the energy lost when a tire flexes. The energy that was put into flexing the tire does not get fully recovered when it regains its shape. This is multiplied many times by a solid rubber tire.

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

tlg said:


> Materials science needs to come a loooooong way to develop a solid material (that's as light as a gas) and exhibits similar properties. Perhaps once they figure out how to alter physics or find an alternative universe.





changingleaf said:


> Not only is solid rubber significantly heavier it creates significantly more rolling resistance than an inflatable tire. Rolling resistance is due to the energy lost when a tire flexes. The energy that was put into flexing the tire does not get fully recovered when it regains its shape. This is multiplied many times by a solid rubber tire.
> 
> See here:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance


I was being a little facetious using the term "rubber". I realize a solid tire would need to be a different material. I wonder if there isn't something more along the lines of a stiff gel that would hold it's basic shape (not too liquid), but be able to flex and spring back more than foam.

I also get there will likely be a weight penalty, but I think most recreational riders wouldn't care too much about that. Rolling resistance, on the other hand, would be an issue.

I don't know. Maybe it is "unobtainium" after all.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> I was being a little facetious using the term "rubber". I realize a solid tire would need to be a different material. I wonder if there isn't something more along the lines of a stiff gel that would hold it's basic shape (not too liquid), but be able to flex and spring back more than foam.


Liquid doesn't compress/flex. It'd be 1000x worse than a foam rubber. And a LOT heavier.



> I don't know. Maybe it is "unobtainium" after all.


Like I said... once they figure out how to alter physics or find an alternative universe.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Maybe aerogel - not solid gel per se (gelatin), but a porous gel. 

I was pondering this: an aerogel type of material in the tire that had enough strength/durability to act like a run flat tire and also allow for some pneumatic inflation to control/select overall tire hardness. E.g. tire with aerogel acts like a tire with 60 psi in it and user can add air to "pump" up the tire to desired equivalent pressure.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Air is a really good material for the application - it's light, can be "rigid" and is tunable. Pretty cheap too.
I think the magic should be applied to the tire and/or tube. A near weightless tube that was impervious to punctures would provide the best of all (or most) worlds.
The perfect tube could end up being better than tubeless. Tubeless is really a pain in the ass attempt at overcoming tubes... because tubes can be heavy and will puncture


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Probably the only semi-viable replacement for pneumatic tires is based on a spring-toroid with a rubber tread (similar to the tires on the moon buggies). Light, flexible, but expensive and difficult to install. If it's worth a few thousand to you, I'm sure somebody makes them.....


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Probably the only semi-viable replacement for pneumatic tires is based on a spring-toroid with a rubber tread (similar to the tires on the moon buggies). Light, flexible, but expensive and difficult to install. If it's worth a few thousand to you, I'm sure somebody makes them.....


Price might be prohibitive, but weighed against the value of tubes... the time and energy of changing said tube (sometimes in the cold rain)... the occasional sidewall blowout... possible injury from a flat at speed... and the peace of mind of knowing you can ride flat free... 

Then it gets interesting. I'm not sure it's a thousand dollars worth of interesting...


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

bobf said:


> A cartoon I saw in an engineering magazine 15 years ago:
> 
> Frowning man says, "It's 2001! Where's my flying car??"


hehe, we will still be asking that 10-20 years from now.


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## RL7836 (Jun 17, 2014)

OldZaskar said:


> A near weightless tube that was impervious to punctures would provide the best of all (or most) worlds.


Isn't that a latex tube?


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Opus51569 said:


> I want my bike to feel like it's riding on air... but never have a flat.


what's the big deal with getting a flat? 

i've only had one this year. and it feels rather good to be able to patch a tube on the side of the road and get back on my ride within ten minutes.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

blackfrancois said:


> what's the big deal with getting a flat?
> 
> i've only had one this year. and it feels rather good to be able to patch a tube on the side of the road and get back on my ride within ten minutes.


I'm gonna guess it wasn't dark, raining, and 38 degrees... 

If so, PM me your number and I'll call you to change my next flat.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Here you go:


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

dcgriz said:


> Here you go:


I bet that spins up real quickly. Those rims are basically as light as air. 


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Opus51569 said:


> People have tried to invent and market solid rubber tires over the years, but none have been particularly successful. Saint Sheldon makes it sound like any attempt is doomed to fail and anyone who tries is a snake-oil salesman.
> 
> I'm certainly no engineer, but this seems like a solvable problem. Is it a question of planned obsolescence - pneumatic tubes keep you coming back? Is it that no one has been able to balance comfort, durability, weight and price?
> 
> I want my bike to feel like it's riding on air... but never have a flat... and I want my jetpack.


Just for reference, people have been working on this issue for 150 years without anything you could call success.

"I'm certainly no engineer, but this seems like a solvable problem." I am an engineer and I disagree. Unless of course you have a way to convert "business physics" into the real thing. If you do possess that ability, you can become fabulously wealthy by selling weightless and frictionless pulleys.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm confident if the wheel is reinvented, it'll get applied to the auto industry before it transitions to bicycles. Look how many years it's been since auto tires have used inner tubes! Even today, tubeless is not mainstream, but is reaching moderate acceptance. 
Granted, something totally new could come to bikes first, but it sure as heck won't be by a tire company, but an accidental discovery. 
I'm really looking forward to going tubeless on my next rig.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Peanya said:


> I'm confident if the wheel is reinvented, it'll get applied to the auto industry before it transitions to bicycles.


Yes, I remember seeing something like this in automobile magazine 25 years ago.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

My tricycle way back in my single digit age era had solid rubber tires. I don't remember how it felt riding but it sure was maintenance free.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Scroll down a bit to see a World War I era German contingency tire ("Notbereifung") made from steel springs. There were no new bicycle tires on the market at that time. Used ones fetched a small fortune.
Fahrradbereifung - Wikiwand


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> Just for reference, people have been working on this issue for 150 years without anything you could call success.
> 
> "I'm certainly no engineer, but this seems like a solvable problem." I am an engineer and I disagree. Unless of course you have a way to convert "business physics" into the real thing. If you do possess that ability, you can become fabulously wealthy by selling weightless and frictionless pulleys.


You seem to have mastered the ability to continually pee in everyone's Wheaties. Physics, not to mention biology, would suggest that's impossible too... but here you are anyway. So nothing's impossible.


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## kjdhawkhill (Jan 29, 2011)

bvber said:


> My tricycle way back in my single digit age era had solid rubber tires. I don't remember how it felt riding but it sure was maintenance free.


Mine had "air filled" rigid plastic tires. I remember hitting some nasty bumps. And I remember the catastrophic failure of the front after too many hard stops and starts. 
If only they'd been solid unobtainium, I'd still be riding it: RBR fit experts be durned.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

wim said:


> Scroll down a bit to see a World War I era German contingency tire ("Notbereifung") made from steel springs. There were no new bicycle tires on the market at that time. Used ones fetched a small fortune.
> Fahrradbereifung - Wikiwand


I think they're on to something. We'll call it "The Tigger"!


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

Opus51569 said:


> You seem to have mastered the ability to continually pee in everyone's Wheaties. Physics, not to mention biology, would suggest that's impossible too... but here you are anyway. So nothing's impossible.


Sorry that your coffee tastes bad. Also sorry that you don't like it when reality gets in the way of your beliefs about engineering. But when you make statements like that, engineers are going to respond.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> ... once they figure out how to alter physics or find an alternative universe.



This.

There is a very good reason Mr. Dunlop invented the pneumatic tire. Because the only thing that feels like you're riding on air is........ drumroll please! ...........AIR! And unless you want to fill your tires with helium, you won't find anything lighter. Well, OK, you could fill them with hydrogen gas, but don't light a match!  

Say, now there's a thought. I wonder if anybody has ever pumped their tires with He to make it lighter.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Say, now there's a thought. I wonder if anybody has ever pumped their tires with He to make it lighter.


Actually I think it's been done. Kinda remember it being a MTB weight weenie thing.

But why not go all out and use hydrogen. It's even lighter! :thumbsup:


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> But why not go all out and use hydrogen. It's even lighter! :thumbsup:



This is why not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIexQD7QYvo


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> Sorry that your coffee tastes bad. Also sorry that you don't like it when reality gets in the way of your beliefs about engineering. But when you make statements like that, engineers are going to respond.


You mean these engineers???

31 Engineering Mistakes That Make You Wonder Who Gave Them Engineering Degrees

Granted, some of those are more a question of design than engineering. But, my coffee tastes fine.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> You mean these engineers???
> 
> 31 Engineering Mistakes That Make You Wonder Who Gave Them Engineering Degrees


Meh... most (if not all) of those are bad photoshopping. 


But sure... engineers make mistakes. However, engineers don't create or control physics. Which is why there isn't a solution to your desired magic rubber.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Opus51569 said:


> You mean these engineers???
> 
> 31 Engineering Mistakes That Make You Wonder Who Gave Them Engineering Degrees
> 
> Granted, some of those are more a question of design than engineering. But, my coffee tastes fine.


Actually, of the ones I saw (after about the first 15, I didn't see any reason to continue with this pointless piece of clickbait), all were examples of bad CONTRACTOR mistakes, or else just covering up of no longer useful entrances and staircases in odd ways. Also, it looks the majority of them were Russian contractors.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Actually, of the ones I saw (after about the first 15, I didn't see any reason to continue with this pointless piece of clickbait), all were examples of bad CONTRACTOR mistakes, or else just covering up of no longer useful entrances and staircases in odd ways. Also, it looks the majority of them were Russian contractors.


Reminds me of the joke about the three engineers arguing about what kind of an engineer god is. One says he's obviously an electrical engineer, citing the complexity of the brain and nervous system in the human body. The second says no, god must be a mechanical engineer - look at the strength and delicacy of the human musculo-skeletal system.

Third guy says, "God is obviously a civil engineer. Who else would site the hazardous-waste handling facilities right in the middle of the prime recreation area?"


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## blackfrancois (Jul 6, 2016)

Opus51569 said:


> I'm gonna guess it wasn't dark, raining, and 38 degrees...


if i'm out riding on a cold night in the rain, why couldn't i also fix a flat?



> ]If so, PM me your number and I'll call you to change my next flat.


if fixing a flat is such a problem, just carry a spare tube so you can save the 6 minutes required to patch the puncture.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Opus51569 said:


> You mean these engineers???
> 
> 31 Engineering Mistakes That Make You Wonder Who Gave Them Engineering Degrees
> 
> Granted, some of those are more a question of design than engineering. But, my coffee tastes fine.




This is obviously fake. And if these are really engineering eff-ups, one must also assume that construction contractors are nothing more than automatons who will build anything without questioning it. REALLY?? Com'on people!


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Lombard said:


> This is obviously fake. And if these are really engineering eff-ups, one must also assume that construction contractors are nothing more than automatons who will build anything without questioning it. REALLY?? Com'on people!


 That first pic is obviously a photoshop; notice that there are 2 pylons only about 30' apart? Also, why would anybody connect a beam that far off and then concrete it over?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I get why there is no good substitute for the pneumatic tube at present. I guess I'm having a harder time with those who say "...and there never will be." Really? "Never?" Forever is a fairly long time, and given the history of advances that were once labeled impossible, that kind of declarative statement seems short-sighted at best.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> I get why there is no good substitute for the pneumatic tube at present. I guess I'm having a harder time with those who say "...and there never will be." Really? "Never?" Forever is a fairly long time, and given the history of advances that were once labeled impossible, that kind of declarative statement seems short-sighted at best.


Yes never. Physics hasn't changed in the last few billion years. It's not likely to change in the next few billion years. Solids will always be heavier than gases. A LOT heavier. And they will never compress like a gas without significantly more resistance.

You set the parameters. Your parameters defy physics. 


> I'm certainly no engineer, but this seems like a solvable problem. Is it a question of planned obsolescence - pneumatic tubes keep you coming back? Is it that no one has been able to* balance comfort, durability, weight and price*?
> 
> I want my bike to feel like *it's riding on air... but never have a flat*


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Solids will always be heavier than gases.



That is unless you are at absolute zero temperature.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Lombard said:


> That is unless you are at absolute zero temperature.


There's no such thing as a gas at absolute zero. Any gas will become a liquid or solid at some temperature above that.

Maybe you're referring to a Bose-Einstein condensate, but that's not really a gas, and anyway, it's extremely low in density.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

tlg said:


> Yes never. Physics hasn't changed in the last few billion years. It's not likely to change in the next few billion years. Solids will always be heavier than gases. A LOT heavier. And they will never compress like a gas without significantly more resistance.
> 
> You set the parameters. Your parameters defy physics.



What about Jell-O??? There's ALWAYS room for Jell-O...

Graphene aerogel??

*sigh*... never mind... but in a thousand or so years, when they do crack this... I'm gonna dredge this thread and some of you are gonna look pretty damn silly... not to mention decayed... silly and decayed.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> What about Jell-O??? There's ALWAYS room for Jell-O...


You should try it! You could save yourself some time though and just fill your tire with water. Jell-O is 99.9% water. Won't be particularly light. Isn't compressible so it won't offer a comfortable ride. 



> Graphene aerogel??


Cheap? Nope.
Light? Very
Compressible? Not in the slightest. It's extremely brittle since it's essentially glass.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

JCavilia said:


> There's no such thing as a gas at absolute zero. Any gas will become a liquid or solid at some temperature above that.



Precisely my point. That is why I made that remark.  Every substance is a solid at absolute zero.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Is Tannus on to something?

http://www.tannus.co.uk


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> Is Tannus on to something?
> 
> Tannus Tyres - Solid Bicycle Tyres


No. Not in the sense of your OP.



Opus51569 said:


> I want my bike to feel like it's riding on air... but never have a flat...


Definitely not going to feel like riding on air. But for a city bike, commuter, MUP bike I'd probably give them a go. 
They claim " It now has the rolling resistance rate that closely matches premium pneumatic *city bike tires*". I'd love to see some testing on that. Besides, I don't know anyone who'd want their road bike to feel like a city bike.

Tannus has been at this since 1985. Yet the industry hasn't been revolutionized to solid tires. Barely a blip on the radar.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

blackfrancois said:


> what's the big deal with getting a flat?
> 
> i've only had one this year. and it feels rather good to be able to patch a tube on the side of the road and get back on my ride within ten minutes.


Well normally nothing however flatting during my cummute when ist raining/cold/blazing hot and Im on a schedule is a big pain. That about the only application where I would consider a solid tire really or the I took my bike to the bar and Im drunk and get a flat.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> No. Not in the sense of your OP.
> 
> Definitely not going to feel like riding on air. But for a city bike, commuter, MUP bike I'd probably give them a go.
> They claim " It now has the rolling resistance rate that closely matches premium pneumatic *city bike tires*". I'd love to see some testing on that. Besides, I don't know anyone who'd want their road bike to feel like a city bike.
> ...


So I guess you're saying John Dunlop's legacy isn't in any danger?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

tlg said:


> No. Not in the sense of your OP.
> 
> Definitely not going to feel like riding on air. But for a city bike, commuter, MUP bike I'd probably give them a go.
> They claim " It now has the rolling resistance rate that closely matches premium pneumatic *city bike tires*". I'd love to see some testing on that. Besides, I don't know anyone who'd want their road bike to feel like a city bike.
> ...


Why must you dash my dreams??? 

If they are able to make it work, I wonder if they'll run into any opposition from an industry that likes the planned obsolescence of tubes and tires that puncture and need replacing.

I would consider their 700X28 for my summer commuter/winter roller bike.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> Why must you dash my dreams???


Don't blame me. Blame physics. It has all these funky rules that you can't get around.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

tlg said:


> Don't blame me. Blame physics. It has all these funky rules that you can't get around.


Lousy physics...✊️


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

.....


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Bridgestone in 2019 anyone???

deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

I thought Walmart sold a line of solid rubber tires...


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## harryman (Nov 14, 2014)

I bet those will be fun on a windy day


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

And more from Tannus:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/tannus-launches-new-25mm-solid-tyre-326929


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Next up...

https://www.cnet.com/news/3d-printed-bigrep-airless-bike-tires-deliver-a-smooth-ride/


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