# Moved my cleats back, now what's going on!!



## Rondo (Apr 27, 2006)

I have been fighting numb toes for a while now, annoying as heck and very uncomfortable. So I finally took the advise posted here, removed the cleat off my shoes (speedplay) and looked at the adapter underneath. The adapter was already back but I was able to move it back to the last hash-mark on the bottom of the shoe and took a ride. My toes were better, not numb but the right foot was still uncomfortable. I now believe the shoes are just a tad too small. Something else was going on, it felt like I did not have as much power, this is a seat of the pants feling since I don't have a power meter but is could this be possible? Would a side effect of having the cleats too far back effect the ability to power the pedal stroke?


----------



## jimcav (Jun 15, 2003)

*you've might've shortend the length from saddle to spindle*

wow--just noticed my nice typing; you might've shortened...since you slid your foot forward realtive to the cleat-- depending on how your heel is when you pedal (flat, up down) you may need to adjust your saddle to get your position the same--for example you may need to go slightly down or back.

jim


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I think it's worth getting a good shop with a fitting system to help when there's numbness/pain/uncomfortable cleat stuff going on. Having your cleat as far back as it can go doesn't sound good to me (unless you have weird shaped feet). Numbness can also be caused by shoes with really stiff soles, and can be fixed with better insoles (there are a bunch available for cycling shoes, but aren't cheap-I think the cheapest is $50), or there may be a foot lenght discrepency going on. A good shop/fitter can help (and can get the seat adjustment worked out with the changes in cleat position etc).


----------



## jabpn (Oct 14, 2005)

I was having a similar situation. I moved my cleats back. It helped a little but not much. I then got a larger shoe. Cleats moved back to the same relative first position. I no longer have a problem with numb toes.


----------



## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

Moving your cleats back will definitely affect your ability to deliver power to the pedals. Just imagine and extreme example where the cleat is in the middle of your arch. You certainly wouldn't be able to get as much power down in that position. There is an optimal power position for your cleats and it generally puts the ball of your foot over the pedal spindle.

As far as numbness, I vote for a different shoe. It may not be the wrong size but might not have a toe box big enough for your honkers.


----------



## Spinfinity (Feb 3, 2004)

*I think this is backwards.*

With your cleat all the way back, your foot is further forward at the forward point on the pedal revolution. You may need to move your seat forward a bit to compensate for the change. I made these changes a few years ago. My hot spots, at the base of my toes on both feet, pretty much went away. I moved my seat forward a bit and ultimately got longer stems, but, until now, hadn't associated the new stems with the other adjustments. 



jimcav said:


> wow--just noticed my nice typing; you might've shortened...since you slid your foot forward realtive to the cleat-- depending on how your heel is when you pedal (flat, up down) you may need to adjust your saddle to get your position the same--for example you may need to go slightly down or back.
> 
> jim


----------



## esenkay (Jan 1, 2006)

Hmmmm......which brings up this article:


http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/blog.html

Scroll down to the entries entitled Biomac shoes and Cleat position. 

Thoughts........

Anyone try this?


----------



## Alter Ego (Sep 10, 2005)

Rondo said:


> I have been fighting numb toes for a while now, annoying as heck and very uncomfortable. So I finally took the advise posted here, removed the cleat off my shoes (speedplay) and looked at the adapter underneath. The adapter was already back but I was able to move it back to the last hash-mark on the bottom of the shoe and took a ride. My toes were better, not numb but the right foot was still uncomfortable. I now believe the shoes are just a tad too small. Something else was going on, it felt like I did not have as much power, this is a seat of the pants feling since I don't have a power meter but is could this be possible? Would a side effect of having the cleats too far back effect the ability to power the pedal stroke?


 If you belive that your shoes are just a tad too small, why don't you try removing the soles now......? And see if things improve a little in the comfort zone.


----------



## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Your cleats should be centered under the balls of your feet. I tried moving mine once when I installed new cleats (can't remember if it was back or forward), and started developing calf pains. It took me a while to figure out that the calf pains were due to moving my cleats. Moved them back to the original position and the calf pains went away.

Your shoes might be too small, or it might be a simple matter of wearing socks that are too thick or tightening your shoes too much. What kind of shoes do you wear? Have you tried different (thinner) socks? With Sidis, it can be easy to overtighten them, which has caused hot spots for me. Ironically, I can also get hot spots if my shoes are too loose.


----------



## Rondo (Apr 27, 2006)

*Good Idea*

I have not tried removing the inserts but will on today's ride. The shoes are Specialized Pro, thats the silver carbon soled shoe with a boa closure.


----------



## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

While I respect Friel a lot I'm not ready to jump on this band wagon quite yet. Very limited info and a fair amount of speculation. More tests are needed to convince me.

I liked his wind tunnel testing of the helmet also. Reinforces what others have found about head position and aero helmets. I thought it was enlightening that even a poorly designed (at least for the turtle position) aero helmet cut off a fair amount of time. Aero helmets help a lot, no matter what position your head is in.


----------



## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*you may have reached the wrong conclusion*



tarwheel2 said:


> Your cleats should be centered under the balls of your feet. I tried moving mine once when I installed new cleats (can't remember if it was back or forward), and started developing calf pains. It took me a while to figure out that the calf pains were due to moving my cleats. Moved them back to the original position and the calf pains went away.
> 
> Your shoes might be too small, or it might be a simple matter of wearing socks that are too thick or tightening your shoes too much. What kind of shoes do you wear? Have you tried different (thinner) socks? With Sidis, it can be easy to overtighten them, which has caused hot spots for me. Ironically, I can also get hot spots if my shoes are too loose.


My experience/opinions below, based on 18 months of ridign with cleats right back.

I have been there. If you moved your clears back towards the heel of the shoe by a few mm (say 3mm) you should have also lowered your saddle by the same amount (but not moved it back/forth). I had the same issue, sore calf muscles after cleats moved back - then I lowered saddle by 2-3mm and all was well again and with cleats right back my achilles pains and numb toe issues improved markedly. I strongly recommend it.

On my SPD-SL pedals and Shimano R151 carbon shoes (size 45) I ride with my cleats all the way back towards the heel of the shoe and I wish I could move them a few mm further back. Been riding like this for 18+ months now - on flats and up to 9% gradients. Would not turn back. The idea of cleat/ball-of-foot-centre alignment over centre of pedal spindle has as much merit as KOPS does i.e. a starting point only. I think most riders should move their cleats a few mm back behind (or possibly even a lot back).

I know several well known fitters and they all tend to shove the cleats as far back as possible. Some shoes are better then others in this respect though.


----------



## jimcav (Jun 15, 2003)

*same here--cleats back, saddle down also, also back*

becase i found for me, a bit back of KOPS helped. I also strongly disagree about stiff soles causing hot feet. too tight, yes that will do it,. but fo r me i had horrible ball of foot pain, better when i moved cleats back. it went away with carbon soled shoes--sidi carbon and now i use specialized s-works or pro carbon.

my experience--move them back. 

jim


----------



## Rondo (Apr 27, 2006)

*I decided to make a change*

I feel like I am fighting a loosing battle with shoes that are too small, so I ordered a new pair and will work on my set-up from this point forward. Thnaks for all the help.


----------



## cheifoshkosh (Apr 10, 2005)

*saddle*

I had the same problem with my toes. I knew it wasn't the cleats or shoes as I had been using them for many years. I changed the saddle to my old one the problem went away. I looked over my new saddle and found that the plastic shell had a sharp edege that cut off the circulation to my toes.


----------

