# SoCal Masters Racer Busted - 2 Year Ban



## Local Hero

And claims he unintentionally ingested some controlled substances. 

Amateur Cyclist Richard Meeker Responds To Suspension


This wasn't some guy who finished 5/5 in a TT. Meeker was a prolific winner, having snagged ten national titles over the years. In the past Meeker raced for the US national team and was an olympic hopeful in the 80s. In 2012 he won more than a dozen races in a row on the hyper competitive socal racing scene. Results are here: https://www.usacycling.org/results/?compid=23914

Here's a video after one of his national titles: Richard Meeker

Meeker Interview The guy has been racing bicycles since before I was born.


Meeker has been suspended since his Sept 2012 positive and will return to racing in Sept of 2014.


A picture of Richard Meeker with Chris Horner:


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## Local Hero

I read up on 19-norandrostenediol.

It looks like you can test positive from GNC "prohormone" supplements: Knowing your supplements can help you avoid a positive nandrolone test | ACTIVE

_No professional and Olympic athlete should take these supplements, because their urine will test positive for nandrolone in as little as three days and for as long as 60 or more days._

No professional and Olympic...or amateur.


This isn't to say that I buy Meeker's story. I don't care if he took the stuff intentionally or unintentionally.


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## Alaska Mike

I... I just don't know how to respond to this. I figured if there was a clean field left in cycling, it would have to be the Southern California Masters scene. Imagine my shock.
[/sarcasm]

The supplements at GNC are just a horror show- even if you believe what's on the label is all that's in them. A friend of mine was taking one of their multipacks and was excited about the results, until I researched the ingredients for him and showed him the doses. One of them was a key ingredient in ****** (that can have serious side-effects), except at over 10 times the recommended dose. There was a bunch of other stuff in there that were equally as questionable, and a few items that probably were clumsy masking agents.

This will continue until the FDA or some other regulatory agency starts enforcing standards on supplements. Until then, you get what you get.

Do I believe Meeker's story? Not really. Should he get a ban? I think so. At any rate, no matter what the length of the sanction, he'll be branded. Any results, past or present, will be suspect. Hell of a thing to deal with.


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## jeff262

Great? Does this mean all those 2012 mid pack results of mine get moved up a spot


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## kmak

Steve Tilford's view on the subject, worth a read:

Tainted Supplements? Rich Meeker Suspended | Steve Tilford


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## stevesbike

It's pretty sad - that team has a bunch of guys who for various reasons either failed at the top level or never made it to that level and still train like pros, have little outside of cycling, and seem to need some sort of weird vindication by beating a bunch of part-time masters. And now it looks like they'll even dope to do it. Pathetic (the tainted supplement story also pathetic).


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## Cinelli 82220

Alaska Mike said:


> The supplements at GNC are just a horror show- even if you believe what's on the label is all that's in them


I can't stand GNC, they are the equivalent of a brick and mortar Amway, complete with pushy sales staff. 

Product could contain anything and nobody knows who actually manufactured it. Layers and layers of subcontractors and generic makers putting labels on stuff for others.


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## Guest

I feel sorry for him. No family, crap job and a substance abuser. Now he cannot even race and is down to just going for a bike ride after work like most folks. But he is not to old to take up golf.


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## MR_GRUMPY

A quote from the Tilford blog that hits the Bullseye.


"If you race masters in SoCal and you don’t understand that drugs are rampant here, you are an imbecile."
.
.


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## Local Hero

stevesbike said:


> It's pretty sad - that team has a bunch of guys who for various reasons either failed at the top level or never made it to that level and still train like pros, have little outside of cycling, and seem to need some sort of weird vindication by beating a bunch of part-time masters.


All of amateur racing is like that, not just masters.


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## foto

Not just a doper, but a sandbagging doper. Win 12 races in a row and you still race 45+? What a shithead.


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## woodys737

foto said:


> Not just a doper, but a sandbagging doper. Win 12 races in a row and you still race 45+? What a shithead.


I get your general drift but, I just don't think AG racers can be called sandbaggers as they can't change their age with points. Unless I'm mistaken, any age grouper (at least cat3) can go to nationals if they pay the money right? So, in the traditional sense of not winning to avoid upgrade points so you can win at will later (say to qualify for or do well at nats in a lower cat) this doesn't qualify as sandbagging.

edit: pathetic and cheating, yes. Sandbagging no.


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## foto

woodys737 said:


> I get your general drift but, I just don't think AG racers can be called sandbaggers as they can't change their age with points. Unless I'm mistaken, any age grouper (at least cat3) can go to nationals if they pay the money right? So, in the traditional sense of not winning to avoid upgrade points so you can win at will later (say to qualify for or do well at nats in a lower cat) this doesn't qualify as sandbagging.
> 
> edit: pathetic and cheating, yes. Sandbagging no.


Ok fine not technically sandbagging. How about cockblocking? Whatever you want to call it. He has clearly outclassed his competition winning everything he enters but still doesn't step up and race senior open or 35+.


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## woodys737

foto said:


> Ok fine not technically sandbagging. How about *cockblocking*? Whatever you want to call it. He has clearly outclassed his competition winning everything he enters but still doesn't step up and race senior open or 35+.


lol!

Well, he outclassed them doped so basically I don't think he outclassed them. Anyways, if a guy is clean and wins everything at any age (not cat) then more power to them. JMO but, I want to race against the best guys and am not concerned with winning that much that we should start relegating guys to a different age group just because they are kicking my ass.

This is a unique situation in that when you mix doping and winning all traditional and accepted rules/etiquette go out the window. I'm more hardcore and think if you get caught it should be for life or at least subject to testing every race. But that's just me.


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## den bakker

insert joke of his former team here.


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## jmorgan

Here is a good blog post about it.

Doped. | Cycling in the South Bay


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## Local Hero

lighthouse54.1 said:


> I feel sorry for him. No family, crap job and a substance abuser. Now he cannot even race and is down to just going for a bike ride after work like most folks. But he is not to old to take up golf.


Crap job?


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## Local Hero

foto said:


> Not just a doper, but a sandbagging doper. Win 12 races in a row and you still race 45+? What a shithead.


I agree that the guy should have been racing P1/2 at that point. But if his entire team is 35+ or 45+, should he race P1/2 without a team? Good luck getting those guys to join in on the P1/2 fun. And from experience I can say that racing P1/2 without teammates is a real challenge. Maybe he should have joined another team. I don't know. 

In my area, there are a few dominant masters riders. Every so often they will jump in the P1/2 crit at the end of the day. What's their justification for only racing masters? Winning the masters points series. 

On another note, the "Doped." blog posted above makes an interesting point about retired pros joining the masters ranks in SoCal. It's in NorCal too. Masters racing is no joke. Many masters racers say it's "just as fast but not as sketchy" -- which I do not believe. I'm looking forward to masters road races because the courses will often be an entire lap shorter than the P1/2.


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## stevesbike

maybe you should take a look at their roster - it's loaded with ex-pros like Thurlow Rogers and Malcolm Hill. They still mostly train like pros - most have some bike industry job and few other commitments. Sure, they are entitled to race masters but these guys have always seemed a bit too fixated on winning and not the quality of competition. 

Steve Tilford (who was a teammate with Rogers on La via Claire) put it well in a recent interview:

"I’ve won the mountain bike Worlds masters five times – but that was for my sponsors; I’m not so interested in beating up on a bunch of old guys. I’d rather be tenth in pro race than win a masters" 



Local Hero said:


> I agree that the guy should have been racing P1/2 at that point. But if his entire team is 35+ or 45+, should he race P1/2 without a team? Good luck getting those guys to join in on the P1/2 fun. And from experience I can say that racing P1/2 without teammates is a real challenge. Maybe he should have joined another team. I don't know.
> 
> In my area, there are a few dominant masters riders. Every so often they will jump in the P1/2 crit at the end of the day. What's their justification for only racing masters? Winning the masters points series.
> 
> On another note, the "Doped." blog posted above makes an interesting point about retired pros joining the masters ranks in SoCal. It's in NorCal too. Masters racing is no joke. Many masters racers say it's "just as fast but not as sketchy" -- which I do not believe. I'm looking forward to masters road races because the courses will often be an entire lap shorter than the P1/2.


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## Local Hero

stevesbike said:


> They still mostly train like pros - most have some bike industry job and few other commitments.


I'm not trying to stick up for anyone here. But I'm not too worried about my competition's commitments outside of cycling. If a guy has created a life that allows him to train more than average, what's the problem? Maybe he wins but works less and has a crappy car and rents an apartment, while a guy who works more and places 17th and owns a home. So what? Or maybe a masters racer made millions early in life and has all the time in the world to train under the supervision of a world class coach, meals prepared by a dietitian, gets regular massages and HJs from a beautiful female Swedish masseuse, and so on. Again, what's the problem? 

It's just cycling. If another grown man wants to make it his #1 priority, I cannot complain when they are better than me, especially since I have other priorities. 



> these guys have always seemed a bit too fixated on winning and not the quality of competition


Can you talk a little about the quality of competition? 


Also, thanks for a discussion on this. I have a similar friendly conversation with a riding partner. He wants there to be a class for married cyclists who work full time and make six figures. He is positive that he can win that series.


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## izza

Looks like Horner will fit in just fine.


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## Guest

Who pays for the lab work in amateur racing and how often do they have it done?


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## bigbill

When I turned 30 in 95, I requested a downgrade to cat 3 so I could race masters. P/1/2 races were just frustrating because I was only riding for teammates who were much better than me. I didn't have the time to train like they did and compete at their level. The masters races were 3/4 and with the exception of a few ringers, pretty evenly matched. The level of competition was good, the races were fast, and the knowledge that you were diving into a corner with guys with mortgages and kids. When I went to nationals the first time, it was obvious that people were doping. It was like they had another gear, especially on the climbs.


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## trailrunner68

Does anyone know how the handicapping system works in Australian racing? Maybe that could work for U.S.


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## Local Hero

izza said:


> Looks like Horner will fit in just fine.


Meeker and Horner


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## Doctor Falsetti

AAA award 

http://www.usada.org/uploads/aaadecisionrichardmeeker.pdf

A few things that stand out. The guy took this all the way to Arbitration. Hired Jacobs. That means he spent some $$$

Also this.....Meeker was a nine time Masters National Champion and this was the “first anti-doping test sought from or provided by Respondent in his career.”


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## spade2you

50/50 he's not tellin the truth. (Whatevs)

Beyond that, didn't we learn from Zirbel's "supplement" fiasco?


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## Doctor Falsetti

ouch 

Saved by a shitty lawyer | Cycling in the South Bay


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## jjmstang

After reading that, Hammer Nutrition should go after him for defamation of character and he should have a life ban


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## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> AAA award
> 
> http://www.usada.org/uploads/aaadecisionrichardmeeker.pdf
> 
> A few things that stand out. The guy took this all the way to Arbitration. Hired Jacobs. That means he spent some $$$
> 
> Also this.....Meeker was a nine time Masters National Champion and this was the “first anti-doping test sought from or provided by Respondent in his career.”


Hired JACOBS???

Sorry, should we all know Jacobs? 

OK, I just looked. It appears as though Howard Jacobs represented Landis. Maybe that's why you have written with familiarity. 

Welcome to the Law Offices of Howard L. Jacobs

He specializes in representing athletes. He is a cyclist himself. He is good standing with the California Bar Association. From all account and he looks like a good attorney to me. Jacobs is an expert in doping defenses » Ventura County Star

If a guy wants to fight charges, why not hire a good attorney? 




jjmstang said:


> After reading that, Hammer Nutrition should go after him for defamation of character and he should have a life ban


A lawsuit is a dumb approach for Hammer. Meeker could simply present the lab results as his defense.

Rather than suing Meeker, Hammer could use this as an advertising opportunity. They could present all sorts of evidence which shows that their products are safe, healthy, and help endurance. They could post advertisements in Trithlete and Cycling magazines with statements about their quality control, purity, and dedication to clean racing.


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## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> If a guy wants to fight charges, why not hire a good attorney?


Sure, but he didn't hire a good attorney, he hired Jacobs. A guy with a long history of failing to get dopers off. Landis, Hamilton, Jones, Montgomery, Harrison


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## tom_h

I rcently read an interview with David Epstein, author of the "Sports Gene". 

IIRC, Epstein said that some 30% of MLB pitchers are getting a surgical procedure in their elbow (or shoulder?) that involves a tendon or something.
The effect, is a much faster pitch.
The procedure is perfectly legal under all rules.

Does this seem "fair" ?


Is it "fair" that both your parents had higher vO2max than my parents? 
If I doped with EPO, wouldn't that simply be "leveling the playing field" because you had an unfair advantage by virtue of your parents, and you have "unearned privelege"?

Liberals in particular will rant about "unearned" and "too much" wealth (whatever that means) but AFAIK they never never complain about "unearned athletic ability" genetically inherited from parents. To do so would also force them to acknowledge that "intelligence" has a large heritability factor, which goes against their worldview of "aggrieved victims" needing coercive govt interventions to "level the playing field".

My point is that a lot of the controversies over "athletic performance enhancements" is highly arbitrary and logically inconsistent.


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## foto

Doctor Falsetti said:


> ouch
> 
> Saved by a shitty lawyer | Cycling in the South Bay


Wow! That was entertaining.


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## Cableguy

bigbill said:


> When I went to nationals the first time, it was obvious that people were doping. It was like they had another gear, especially on the climbs.


I don't know, others being faster than you isn't very good evidence of doping. Suspicious? Perhaps. Obvious? Hmm


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## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Sure, but he didn't hire a good attorney, he hired Jacobs. A guy with a long history of failing to get dopers off. Landis, Hamilton, Jones, Montgomery, Harrison


There's no need for you to defame this attorney. Representing guilty clients does not mean the guy is a bad lawyer or that he put on a bad defense. He very well may be one of the best in his field. 

There are countless examples of good attorneys losing cases. For example, Clarence Darrow lost the Scopes Trial but is universally recognized as a great lawyer. 


Since you seem to know about good and bad lawyers, who would you recommend to an athlete accused of doping?


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## Cableguy

In his statement he said, "Cycling is my hobby, not my career, and it would make no sense for me to use an illegal substance."

Interesting that he didn't realize how stupid this sounds before he said it. Also seems to suggest if cycling *was* his career he would dope, because it would make sense?


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## Local Hero

Cableguy said:


> In his statement he said, "Cycling is my hobby, not my career, and it would make no sense for me to use an illegal substance."
> 
> Interesting that he didn't realize how stupid this sounds before he said it. Also seems to suggest if cycling *was* his career he would dope, because it would make sense?


Vaughters makes a compelling case for professional cyclists to dope, childish fantasies: 

_People who end up living their dreams are not those who are lucky and gifted, but those who are stubborn, resolute and willing to sacrifice. Now, imagine you’ve paid the dues, you’ve done the work, you’ve got the talent, and your resolve is solid as concrete. At that point, the dream is 98 percent complete but there is that last little bit you need to become great.

THEN, just short of finally living your childhood dream, you are told, either straight out or implicitly, by some coaches, mentors, even the boss, that you aren’t going to make it, unless you cheat. Unless you choose to dope.
...
The choice to kiss your childhood dream goodbye or live with a dishonest heart is horrid and tearing. I’ve been there, and I know. I chose to lie over killing my dream. I chose to dope. _


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## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> There's no need for you to defame this attorney. Representing guilty clients does not mean the guy is a bad lawyer or that he put on a bad defense. He very well may be one of the best in his field.
> 
> There are countless examples of good attorneys losing cases. For example, Clarence Darrow lost the Scopes Trial but is universally recognized as a great lawyer.
> 
> 
> Since you seem to know about good and bad lawyers, who would you recommend to an athlete accused of doping?


Pointing out that Jacobs has failed often is not defaming him. 

I would recommend that he saved his money and not taken this to arbitration. He would have got the same result and not spent $100,000


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## Doctor Falsetti

tom_h said:


> I rcently read an interview with David Epstein, author of the "Sports Gene".
> 
> IIRC, Epstein said that some 30% of MLB pitchers are getting a surgical procedure in their elbow (or shoulder?) that involves a tendon or something.
> The effect, is a much faster pitch.
> The procedure is perfectly legal under all rules.
> 
> Does this seem "fair" ?
> 
> 
> Is it "fair" that both your parents had higher vO2max than my parents?
> If I doped with EPO, wouldn't that simply be "leveling the playing field" because you had an unfair advantage by virtue of your parents, and you have "unearned privelege"?
> 
> Liberals in particular will rant about "unearned" and "too much" wealth (whatever that means) but AFAIK they never never complain about "unearned athletic ability" genetically inherited from parents. To do so would also force them to acknowledge that "intelligence" has a large heritability factor, which goes against their worldview of "aggrieved victims" needing coercive govt interventions to "level the playing field".
> 
> My point is that a lot of the controversies over "athletic performance enhancements" is highly arbitrary and logically inconsistent.


You should actually read David's book, it is excellent. He would laugh at your "logicly inconsistent" post


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## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Pointing out that Jacobs has failed often is not defaming him.
> 
> I would recommend that he saved his money and not taken this to arbitration. He would have got the same result and not spent $100,000


No, I wasn't referring to that. I was talking about when your zealousness took over and you claimed that the guy is not a good attorney. 

So, who would you recommend to represent an athlete accused of doping?


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## jjmstang

Local Hero said:


> A lawsuit is a dumb approach for Hammer. Meeker could simply present the lab results as his defense.


Any judge in a trial would not allow the lab results as proof due to there being no chain of custody, therefore the doper has no proof that it was a Hammer product that return the adverse findings.


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## Local Hero

jjmstang said:


> Any judge in a trial would not allow the lab results as proof due to there being no chain of custody, therefore the doper has no proof that it was a Hammer product that return the adverse findings.


No. 

Chain of custody would be an issue if Meeker were bringing a case against Hammer for poisoning him. If Meeker were trying to prove that the supplements were tainted he would need a proper chain of custody. 

Meeker may claim that what he said was said in good faith because his investigations--despite being faulty--support his claims. The tests would be admissible to support Meeker's belief that the supplements were tainted. (But not to prove that they were tainted.) 

If Hammer were to bring a case against Meeker the chain of custody issues may actually cut against Hammer because it makes it more difficult for them to definitively prove that Meeker fabricated evidence.


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## mpre53

In any event, the rules of evidence that apply to civil/criminal trials may, or may not, apply to arbitration hearings, which are only quasi-judicial. Even in small claims civil proceedings, the hearing officers often accept evidence that isn't properly authenticated under the rules of evidence.


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## Cableguy

Local Hero said:


> Vaughters makes a compelling case for professional cyclists to dope, childish fantasies:
> 
> _..._


The irony though is that even though cycling is his "hobby", Meeker probably treats it like an all or nothing childhood fantasy described by Vaughters


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## ArkRider

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You should actually read David's book, it is excellent. He would laugh at your "logicly inconsistent" post


When I read that post, I couldn't help but wonder if tom_h had ever heard the term "non sequitur."


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## Local Hero

Cableguy said:


> The irony though is that even though cycling is his "hobby", Meeker probably treats it like an all or nothing childhood fantasy described by Vaughters


Oh yeah, the guy is obsessed with cycling. Nobody is that good without dedicating their life to it. And who is going to spend an estimated $100,000 on a legal defense to protect their hobby? 

One of my hobbies is reading library books. I go every week. It's a true hobby and not an obsession. But I love the library. If I were accused of breaking some library rules and had the decision of paying $100,000 on a legal defense or facing a 2-4 year ban from all libraries, I would take the ban.


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## Local Hero

One my post from me and I'm done screwing around for the night: 


I do not believe that he intentionally took Nandrolone. No athlete subject to testing would intentionally take a drug that can show up in their system for two months. 

That part of his defense is true. He did not take it intentionally. And I believe that getting caught for Nandrolone was a surprise. 

I believe that Meeker is a victim of a cross contamination. 

Something he took intentionally was laced with Nandrolone. It must have been bottled on the same machine or in the same facility. But it wasn't from Hammer. Before Meeker returns from cycling he definitely needs to figure out if the it was his EPO or testosterone.


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## spdntrxi

I do remember a story earlier in the year that made some local headlines.. I don't remember details but there was a supplement that tested positive for steroids due to cross con tam. Don't know if was Hammer but it was something sold by places like GNC.


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## foto

Local Hero said:


> ...
> 
> One of my hobbies is reading library books. I go every week. It's a true hobby and not an obsession. But I love the library. If I were accused of breaking some library rules and had the decision of paying $100,000 on a legal defense or facing a 2-4 year ban from all libraries, I would take the ban.



Excellent analogy!


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## MojoHamuki

woodys737 said:


> lol!
> 
> Well, he outclassed them doped so basically I don't think he outclassed them. Anyways, if a guy is clean and wins everything at any age (not cat) then more power to them. JMO but, I want to race against the best guys and am not concerned with winning that much that we should start relegating guys to a different age group just because they are kicking my ass.
> 
> This is a unique situation in that when you mix doping and winning all traditional and accepted rules/etiquette go out the window. I'm more hardcore and think if you get caught it should be for life or at least subject to testing every race. But that's just me.


When I started racing in NYC the field was full of guys who would remain in lower classes for the wins. None of them were looking to become pros just bragging rights


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## skitorski

*Tommy John.*



tom_h said:


> I rcently read an interview with David Epstein, author of the "Sports Gene".
> 
> IIRC, Epstein said that some 30% of MLB pitchers are getting a surgical procedure in their elbow (or shoulder?) that involves a tendon or something.
> The effect, is a much faster pitch.
> The procedure is perfectly legal under all rules.
> 
> Does this seem "fair" ?
> 
> My point is that a lot of the controversies over "athletic performance enhancements" is highly arbitrary and logically inconsistent.


Eh. That's kinda selective about what is and what isn't. I follow baseball a lot. I ride a bike.

I believe you are referring to Tommy John surgery. Now all the experts, web warriords, and yes, MDs can chine in now.

That surgery is for a crippled, destroyed, finished arm. No one get's that done to a good arm. And no one throws better. That's BS. And, the surgery isn't always successful.

Mostly a not true posting regaridng a parallel to baseball.

Probably 80% of baseball pitchers are done, dead arm or shoulder before they are 23 yo. One has to be a freak, a true freak of nature to survive a MLB or even an instructional league regimen of pitching at that high level. And it takes freak of nature skill to do it. And a mental toughness. Can't even go there from a bike perspective. The chemicals yes, the surgery, I can't really think of anything like it that would help a pro cyclist.


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## Alaska Mike

I think the reason a lot of amateurs dope is that they can't accept a ceiling on their performance. You start off and you make huge strides in the early days. That tapers off, so you begin a structured training plan to continue the trend. Along the way you spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on equipment, but even that has a limit to how much faster it will get you. You might hire a coach, try any sort of supplement or recovery agent advertised in the magazines, but sooner or later, for whatever reason, you'll hit your peak and level out or start to decline.

Most of the people attracted to the sport are the sort that don't particularly like that to happen. Most people learn to accept it, though, even if they don't like it. However, there are some that are wired to always want more- at any cost. Those are the guys that dope, and while I don't want to line up next to them, I can understand the desire. It's a handful of synapse misfires away from where I am every season. The same impulse that causes me to build up multiple "new" bikes every season (I have an eBay/Craigslist problem) or add another wheelset or three to my ProTour-sized collection has the potential to take a darker turn if I let it. When I honestly look myself in the mirror, I'm not "better" than those guys who dope, I just make different choices.

Rules aside (because I race exclusively non-USAC sanctioned races), is my mechanical doping any different than their chemical doping? When I do a time trial on my pupose-built TT bike with a carbon disc and aero helmet, and I crush a guy on a 'cross bike, do I have an unfair advantage? I am driven to maximize my performance and willing to pay for it, and he's out there to do his best with what he has. Take it up another level, and you have the doped vs the non-doped.

Ethics are such a variable thing sometimes. That place where the line is set can shift as time passes, from "Reefer Madness" to legalization. I hope doping is never legalized, and that sanctioning bodies will actively pursue offenders, because at a certain point it becomes a battle of wills- those willing to accept any risk to win, and the rest of us.

Meeker has more natural ability than I do, without doping. I'm never going to be at his level, unless I take that next step. I hope I never do.


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## bigbill

skitorski said:


> Eh. That's kinda selective about what is and what isn't. I follow baseball a lot. I ride a bike.
> 
> I believe you are referring to Tommy John surgery. Now all the experts, web warriords, and yes, MDs can chine in now.
> 
> That surgery is for a crippled, destroyed, finished arm. No one get's that done to a good arm. And no one throws better. That's BS. And, the surgery isn't always successful.
> 
> Mostly a not true posting regaridng a parallel to baseball.
> 
> Probably 80% of baseball pitchers are done, dead arm or shoulder before they are 23 yo. One has to be a freak, a true freak of nature to survive a MLB or even an instructional league regimen of pitching at that high level. And it takes freak of nature skill to do it. And a mental toughness. Can't even go there from a bike perspective. The chemicals yes, the surgery, I can't really think of anything like it that would help a pro cyclist.
> 
> View attachment 289389


Many pitchers choose to have this surgery well before their arm is trashed. It basically modifies the arm structure to do something it wasn't designed for, pitching. I know of several young teens (13-15) that have had the surgery because of overuse in Select and Little League. My son is a pitcher and I keep track of how many pitches he throws, even in practice. The kids that have had the surgery as a teen typically go on to good high school and college pitching careers.


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## Full_Spectrum

MojoHamuki said:


> When I started racing in NYC the field was full of guys who would remain in lower classes for the wins. None of them were looking to become pros just bragging rights


Cherry-picking. 
Happens all the time in motorcycle club racing. Ive seen guys win championships as Amateurs- which means you are upgraded to Expert status the following year- and then they will petition the sanctioning body to remain Amateurs the following year.

I couldnt wait to get to race with the Experts, knowing that I was going to get much faster- even if I didnt win right away, or ever. I wanted to be challenged, a lot more than I wanted the trophy from a hollow win...


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## Guest

In 1976 I went to watch a Master class race in Capitola Calif and they rode about a 2 mile loop in the Criterium. After the first loop I got bored and went down to the beach. I guess I have not thought about amateur bicycle racing since then. Now that I know that they use drugs I can see I made a good choice. 

Myself all I have to do is enjoy the day, have a good time, socialize and go on an occasional tour. I just have to maintain basic fitness to have fun. Drugs not needed for that. Tomorrow I am riding 70 with my son-in-law and my son. It should be a nice day out and with low traffic. 

I think the guy this thread is about should be suspended for life and all his victories revoked. Substance abusers are a poor role model to junior riders. It's best to weed them out for good. The same with all sports sounds good to me. Even golf if you call that a sport.


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## stevesbike

1. it's not a 'hobby' for Meeker. I've known him since around 1988 and it's always been the focus of his life. Jobs, relationships, etc. were made to fit around the bike. After never making it to the top level, he rode on a wannabe pro masters team.

2. The real crime here is the fact that USA cycling (and before that USCF) never tested him before 2012. There's a few dozen national championships in there. It's pathetic that the regulating federation didn't safeguard the sport more. 

3. Not much stopping a guy who feels like cheating if he wants to even at a national championships event if he's never been tested in 30 years. 

4. The hearing testimony is a disgrace. Tampering with evidence, claiming not to know the rules, etc. Should have at least received a 4 year suspension.


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## Guest

stevesbike said:


> 1. it's not a 'hobby' for Meeker. I've known him since around 1988 and it's always been the focus of his life. Jobs, relationships, etc. were made to fit around the bike. After never making it to the top level, he rode on a wannabe pro masters team.
> 
> 2. The real crime here is the fact that USA cycling (and before that USCF) never tested him before 2012. There's a few dozen national championships in there. It's pathetic that the regulating federation didn't safeguard the sport more.
> 
> 3. Not much stopping a guy who feels like cheating if he wants to even at a national championships event if he's never been tested in 30 years.
> 
> 4. The hearing testimony is a disgrace. Tampering with evidence, claiming not to know the rules, etc. Should have at least received a 4 year suspension.



I guess since I know nothing about amateur racing my comments are more of an emotional response. It's just a whack the turkey type thing. What really should be done obviously needs to be handled by those involved. I do pay attention to pro road racing a little but mostly so that my son and I have something common to talk about. 


Does an amateur top tier rider receive things from sponsors such as equipment, money, bikes , clothing, travel expenses, entrance fees?

Also what are the rules on testing in Amateur racing and who pays for the labs.


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## spdntrxi

I'm for a 10yr ban on this one… strip titles in last 10 too


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## Alaska Mike

Somehow I don't think this will send a shudder through the Southern California Masters peloton. Those that are doping will likely continue to dope, because the chances of getting caught are so small and the penalty is so short (relatively speaking). Now if they set up at a State Championships without prior notice, announced that everyone that started the race will provide a sample (no matter if they finished or not), took samples from *everybody*, and then tested just the Top 5 and a random sampling of the rest of the field, I bet you would see some cold sweat. Obviously it would cost some money, but I bet it would get better results in the short term. Of course, then the "youth regeneration" doctors would have to get savvy on tapering protocols and masking agents, and the game would move into a new stage.

When Meeker lawyered up and started sending samples into a lab for testing, it became clear to everyone it wasn't just a hobby. Even if he never became a pro, he certainly acted like one that has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Unfortunately, his actions after the fact cost USADA resources that could have been utilized catching more dopers.


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## Local Hero

Alaska Mike said:


> Somehow I don't think this will send a shudder through the Southern California Masters peloton. Those that are doping will likely continue to dope, because the chances of getting caught are so small and the penalty is so short (relatively speaking). Now if they set up at a State Championships without prior notice, announced that everyone that started the race will provide a sample (no matter if they finished or not), took samples from *everybody*, and then tested just the Top 5 and a random sampling of the rest of the field, I bet you would see some cold sweat. Obviously it would cost some money, but I bet it would get better results in the short term. Of course, then the "youth regeneration" doctors would have to get savvy on tapering protocols and masking agents, and the game would move into a new stage.
> 
> When Meeker lawyered up and started sending samples into a lab for testing, it became clear to everyone it wasn't just a hobby. Even if he never became a pro, he certainly acted like one that has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Unfortunately, his actions after the fact cost USADA resources that could have been utilized catching more dopers.


I would like to think that it was not a complete waste. Hopefully having one of these guys busted will have a chilling effect on the doping.


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## Alaska Mike

Local Hero said:


> I would like to think that it was not a complete waste. Hopefully having one of these guys busted will have a chilling effect on the doping.


Not a complete waste, because it indicates how far USADA will pursue it, but I think the long-term effect of such limited testing is that guys that are already on the dark side will just be a little more careful about their glow time and their suppliers. This guy obviously wasn't on par with Ferrari when it came to doping and how not to get caught, because he didn't have to be. Nobody was watching, and it's common knowledge that USADA doesn't have the resources to do even a cursory testing program. Unless he names names and that leads to another Papp-esque list (that USADA actually prosecutes), this is likely to be seen as a "keep your head low and it will all blow over" moment.


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## tom_h

MR_GRUMPY said:


> A quote from the Tilford blog that hits the Bullseye.
> 
> "If you race masters in SoCal and you don’t understand that drugs are rampant here, you are an imbecile."


That's not actually from Tilford's blog, he quotes it from another cyclist's blog.
The other blogger is noted for flamboyant hyperbole ...

I'd disagree that PEDs are "rampant" in SoCal Masters racing.


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## aclinjury

tom_h said:


> That's not actually from Tilford's blog, he quotes it from another cyclist's blog.
> The other blogger is noted for flamboyant hyperbole ...
> 
> I'd disagree that PEDs are "rampant" in SoCal Masters racing.


Not rampant like the pro tour, but the presence of doping in socal is probably stronger than most regions around the country.


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## JohnStonebarger

aclinjury said:


> Not rampant like the pro tour, but the presence of doping in socal is probably stronger than most regions around the country.


What makes you say that? I've raced Masters in New England and in the Midwest and I couldn't really tell you how prevalent doping is in either. I just don't know. What makes you think it's most common in socal?


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## aclinjury

JohnStonebarger said:


> What makes you say that? I've raced Masters in New England and in the Midwest and I couldn't really tell you how prevalent doping is in either. I just don't know. What makes you think it's most common in socal?


What makes me think it's prevalent? A lot of indicators.

1) I know at least one masters racer who at the peak of his life almost made a pro-continental team (ie, he's pretty good). He's under 40. He is no sprinter, but he has one of the best power to weight ratio around here. He's on a local masters team now. Tells me that he's getting dropped when his power meter says he shouldn't be. Mind you, this guys has been training at a very dedicated level. Yes, he has a family and a real job, but very committed to training. He's a physiologist, so if anything, he knows exactly how to optimize his training time.

2) I've guys in their 40s improve drastically after they have been racing for a decade. Did these guys suddenly find the fountain of youth or some training secret after a decade? You tell me. On top of that, their power is not always consistent. Sometimes they seem amazing, and yet there are period when they seem to struggle, I mean really struggle

Steroid use. Except for Miami, I'd say steroid access from the local muscleheads is pretty easy. Basically, getting steroid here is not much harder than walking in a Rite-Aid requesting for a flu shot. I know a guy about mid45 y/o, guy uses it. I can definitely see his intensity during training (at least less than 2 hr).


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## wesb321

Wait.. I thought the charges were dropped? 


:shocked:


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## Local Hero

aclinjury said:


> What makes me think it's prevalent? A lot of indicators.
> 
> 1) I know at least one masters racer who at the peak of his life almost made a pro-continental team (ie, he's pretty good). He's under 40. He is no sprinter, but he has one of the best power to weight ratio around here. He's on a local masters team now. *Tells me that he's getting dropped when his power meter says he shouldn't be.* Mind you, this guys has been training at a very dedicated level. Yes, he has a family and a real job, but very committed to training. He's a physiologist, so if anything, he knows exactly how to optimize his training time.
> 
> 2) I've guys in their 40s improve drastically after they have been racing for a decade. Did these guys suddenly find the fountain of youth or some training secret after a decade? You tell me. On top of that, their power is not always consistent. Sometimes they seem amazing, and yet there are period when they seem to struggle, I mean really struggle
> 
> Steroid use. Except for Miami, I'd say steroid access from the local muscleheads is pretty easy. Basically, getting steroid here is not much harder than walking in a Rite-Aid requesting for a flu shot. I know a guy about mid45 y/o, guy uses it. I can definitely see his intensity during training (at least less than 2 hr).


Can you explain the bold? 


Do you race?


----------



## Guest

Since nobody answered my questions about who pays for lab testing on bicycle racers I have been surfing around. I found an old article from Bicycling magazine that says that the USADA is doing the testing and paying for it. Because it's expensive they do very little testing and that primarily the cheaters are in the Masters Class. The article assumes it's because Masters class racers can afford the products, high end bikes and such. 

Amateur American Bicycle Race Doping | Bicycling Magazine

But it's all interesting and a good reason to ignore bicycle racing which is what I do mostly. I watch or read on the net about the TDF and a couple of the classics. Then I wonder what drugs the winner was using and how they avoided testing positive.


----------



## tom_h

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Since nobody answered my questions about who pays for lab testing on bicycle racers I have been surfing around....


Since last year, USAC has been imposing a substantial fee on road events to fund some type of testing program. I don't know the details of the testing program, but I do know the fee is as much as $800 for an NCC category, 1 day event.

Given the high testing costs, it's clear that testing will only be done at select events, presumably more likely at the state & national championship levels.


----------



## Guest

tom_h said:


> Since last year, USAC has been imposing a substantial fee on road events to fund some type of testing program. I don't know the details of the testing program, but I do know the fee is as much as $800 for an NCC category, 1 day event.
> 
> Given the high testing costs, it's clear that testing will only be done at select events, presumably more likely at the state & national championship levels.



Thanks, that is good to know. Lab work can be very expensive for sure and I can see if they receive fees from smaller events then at the larger races they would have enough to do some testing. Just testing one rider could easily be more then the $800.00 dollars. Which is why I am curious about how it gets paid for. 


I guess myself I like the Century rides. You can dope all you want and at the end you just get something to eat and a T-shirt. Or you can ride clean and get the same thing to eat and a T-shirt. I was going to ride a couple next year as I will be retired and would like to participate. We have the Condor classic around here and I would like to ride in that one and maybe something around Santa Cruz, Ca. I will ride the metric century routes. It makes a good ride for me. Fun to do and afterwards I am not to tired to play with the Grandchildren.


----------



## Alaska Mike

JohnStonebarger said:


> What makes you say that? I've raced Masters in New England and in the Midwest and I couldn't really tell you how prevalent doping is in either. I just don't know. What makes you think it's most common in socal?


I'd say a lot of factors play in here.
The first is size. SoCal has a large percentage of USAC's membership (something like 20%?). Big fields increases the chances of someone being a doper.

The second is that youth/health-obsessed SoCal is a hotbed of the "youth regeneration" movement. There are a lot of clinics pushing testosterone, human growth hormone, and all sort of other big-league doping products to middle-aged people looking to turn back the clock.

The third is that Mexico and its loose regulation of it's pharmacies is just a hop across the border. 

I just finished Andrew Tinlin's "The Doper Next Door". I paid $1 for it on the used book market, so hopefully I don't encourage other such "experiments". It does provide a fascinating look into the culture, and convinced me that my choice not to dope is the right one. YMMV.


----------



## Local Hero

Alaska Mike said:


> The third is that Mexico and its loose regulation of it's pharmacies is just a hop across the border.


I think black market drugs are a likely candidate for Meeker's cross contamination.


----------



## tom_h

Alaska Mike said:


> ... The third is that Mexico and its loose regulation of it's pharmacies is just a hop across the border. ..


 heh-heh, a buddy told me he saw clenbuterol being sold over-the-counter in a Mexican airport pharmacy ... the drug for which Alberto Contador was suspended.
I'd imagine there's a lot more stuff being sold OTC there, without requiring a prescription. AFAIK, clenbuterol is illegal in US, with or without a prescription.


----------



## Fireform

aclinjury said:


> What makes me think it's prevalent? A lot of indicators.
> 
> 1) I know at least one masters racer who at the peak of his life almost made a pro-continental team (ie, he's pretty good). He's under 40. He is no sprinter, but he has one of the best power to weight ratio around here. He's on a local masters team now. Tells me that he's getting dropped when his power meter says he shouldn't be. Mind you, this guys has been training at a very dedicated level. Yes, he has a family and a real job, but very committed to training. He's a physiologist, so if anything, he knows exactly how to optimize his training time.
> 
> 2) I've guys in their 40s improve drastically after they have been racing for a decade. Did these guys suddenly find the fountain of youth or some training secret after a decade? You tell me. On top of that, their power is not always consistent. Sometimes they seem amazing, and yet there are period when they seem to struggle, I mean really struggle
> 
> Steroid use. Except for Miami, I'd say steroid access from the local muscleheads is pretty easy. Basically, getting steroid here is not much harder than walking in a Rite-Aid requesting for a flu shot. I know a guy about mid45 y/o, guy uses it. I can definitely see his intensity during training (at least less than 2 hr).


Why "except for Miami"? I would say there's no shortage of fountain of youth clinics, locally.


----------



## Alaska Mike

Local Hero said:


> I think black market drugs are a likely candidate for Meeker's cross contamination.


I wouldn't doubt it. Most of these guys have no idea of what they're putting in their bodies. It doesn't matter what the label says- it could be the real thing, it could be placebos, it could be some other substance altogether. Even the guys paying big bucks at clinics don't always get a quality product. While they're cracking down on pharmacies in the US that are "mixing their own" with ever more stringent regulations, the game is completely different in Mexico and overseas. Not a pretty scene.


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## The Tedinator

IMO, he was glowing because he felt he could dope with impunity. It was his first test, right? Well, he is batting 1000.00 then. However, if you feel it was accidental supplemental contamination, I ain't gonna argue with you.


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## Local Hero

The Tedinator said:


> IMO, he was glowing because he felt he could dope with impunity. It was his first test, right? Well, he is batting 1000.00 then. However, if you feel it was accidental supplemental contamination, I ain't gonna argue with you.


Yes, it could be either. 

I just think it's fun to say, "Yes, Meeker is correct about cross contamination. But he was caught because the *other* illegal drugs he took were tainted!" Still guilty, just for other reasons, a la Contador's echo positive. 

The arbitration only says "above 2" or something. It would be nice to know what that means. Yes, there was a measurable amount in the guy's sample. But how much? Was it tantamount to a BAC of .0001 or .08?


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## stevesbike

who cares what the level was - none of the Hammer products were contaminated. It was the loose powder mixed among the capsules. The only link to a Hammer product was that if you believe a bunch of capsules broke, someone threw out the empty capsules, and the broken capsules content was different than the intact capsules. Clearly enough to lead USAC to press for 4 years for tampering. Oh, and sure every rider downs 30+ capsules before each race....





Local Hero said:


> Yes, it could be either.
> 
> I just think it's fun to say, "Yes, Meeker is correct about cross contamination. But he was caught because the *other* illegal drugs he took were tainted!" Still guilty, just for other reasons, a la Contador's echo positive.
> 
> The arbitration only says "above 2" or something. It would be nice to know what that means. Yes, there was a measurable amount in the guy's sample. But how much? Was it tantamount to a BAC of .0001 or .08?


----------



## Local Hero

stevesbike said:


> who cares what the level was - none of the Hammer products were contaminated. It was the loose powder mixed among the capsules. The only link to a Hammer product was that if you believe a bunch of capsules broke, someone threw out the empty capsules, and the broken capsules content was different than the intact capsules. Clearly enough to lead USAC to press for 4 years for tampering. Oh, and sure every rider downs 30+ capsules before each race....


Does anyone think the nandrolone came from Hammer? 

I don't.


I would be interested in knowing the levels because it might indicate whether he was taking nandrolone straight up or if mt pet theory is correct, that the nandrolone had contaminated another illegal substance.


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## foto

Local Hero said:


> Does anyone think the nandrolone came from Hammer?
> 
> I don't.
> 
> 
> I would be interested in knowing the levels because it might indicate whether he was taking nandrolone straight up or if mt pet theory is correct, that the nandrolone had contaminated another illegal substance.


Since nothing is on the line but pride and principle, Masters racing really should have two categories, stock and modified. Let's see how freaked these juicers can get if they don't have to sneak around USADA etc.


----------



## Cableguy

foto said:


> Since nothing is on the line but pride and principle, Masters racing really should have two categories, stock and modified. Let's see how freaked these juicers can get if they don't have to sneak around USADA etc.


I think you know as well as I do that there would still be cheaters in the "stock" category. The modified category would be interesting in a sort of bizzare way... I can only imagine the conversations at the starting lines, 

Rider A: "How's it goin? Try any new stuff?"
Rider B: "Man I'm just glad I didn't die last night... put in more blood than usual." 
Rider A: "Bastard!"
Rider C: "Hey who's your doc??"
Rider D: "My doc has me on some new stuff, although I think I'm hallucinating a bit... honestly keep your distance from me fellas"
Rider A: "... umm, guys I think George is dead"
Rider C: "Yes! Not last place!"


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## foto

Cableguy said:


> I think you know as well as I do that there would still be cheaters in the "stock" category. The modified category would be interesting in a sort of bizzare way... I can only imagine the conversations at the starting lines,
> 
> Rider A: "How's it goin? Try any new stuff?"
> Rider B: "Man I'm just glad I didn't die last night... put in more blood than usual."
> Rider A: "Bastard!"
> Rider C: "Hey who's your doc??"
> Rider D: "My doc has me on some new stuff, although I think I'm hallucinating a bit... honestly keep your distance from me fellas"
> Rider A: "... umm, guys I think George is dead"
> Rider C: "Yes! Not last place!"


 well played.


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## den bakker

Cableguy said:


> I think you know as well as I do that there would still be cheaters in the "stock" category. The modified category would be interesting in a sort of bizzare way... I can only imagine the conversations at the starting lines,
> 
> Rider A: "How's it goin? Try any new stuff?"
> Rider B: "Man I'm just glad I didn't die last night... put in more blood than usual."
> Rider A: "Bastard!"
> Rider C: "Hey who's your doc??"
> Rider D: "My doc has me on some new stuff, although I think I'm hallucinating a bit... honestly keep your distance from me fellas"
> Rider A: "... umm, guys I think George is dead"
> Rider C: "Yes! Not last place!"


sounds like Gewis-Ballan.


----------



## thighmaster

stevesbike said:


> 1. it's not a 'hobby' for Meeker. I've known him since around 1988 and it's always been the focus of his life. Jobs, relationships, etc. were made to fit around the bike. After never making it to the top level, he rode on a wannabe pro masters team.
> 
> 2. The real crime here is the fact that USA cycling (and before that USCF) never tested him before 2012. There's a few dozen national championships in there. It's pathetic that the regulating federation didn't safeguard the sport more.
> 
> 3. Not much stopping a guy who feels like cheating if he wants to even at a national championships event if he's never been tested in 30 years.
> 
> 4. The hearing testimony is a disgrace. Tampering with evidence, claiming not to know the rules, etc. Should have at least received a 4 year suspension.


Not an excuse, but the top line fits excersice adiction to a tee. The more of these old dudes who should have gotten on with life years ago, who just can't handle decline, seem inclined to also find there way to the PED bar. Just like an alchoholic always finds a reason to drink, even on deaths bed. Google excersice addiction--I have it. I didn't and don't dope, but I can bend my mind around many good reasons to do it. Of all the addictions it's not so bad, but your social, family and work life can suffer--just like any other addiction.


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## 80sroadie

thighmaster said:


> Not an excuse, but the top line fits excersice adiction to a tee. The more of these old dudes who should have gotten on with life years ago, who just can't handle decline, seem inclined to also find there way to the PED bar. Just like an alchoholic always finds a reason to drink, even on deaths bed. Google excersice addiction--I have it. I didn't and don't dope, but I can bend my mind around many good reasons to do it. Of all the addictions it's not so bad, but your social, family and work life can suffer--just like any other addiction.


As an "old dude" I hear what you are saying. I don't dope, I have never doped, and I don't race anymore. However, I will admit that the idea of being able to turn back the clock so I could just go out hammer longer with my son (25yrs old) and his buddies holds a certain attraction! I won't ever go there but I also won't claim it hasn't ever crossed my mind.


----------



## foto

80sroadie said:


> As an "old dude" I hear what you are saying. I don't dope, I have never doped, and I don't race anymore. However, I will admit that the idea of being able to turn back the clock so I could just go out hammer longer with my son (25yrs old) and his buddies holds a certain attraction! I won't ever go there but I also won't claim it hasn't ever crossed my mind.


See, this is what I don't understand. If taking PEDs safely, with the guidance of a good doctor, can give these kinds of benefits, why shouldn't people be "allowed" to do it, and even compete in non-serious racing events? It should fall under "the pursuit of happiness" and can really be victimless if taken out of the shadows and made socially acceptable.


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## 80sroadie

Since I don't ride competitive events, for me it really just comes down to my reluctance to take chances with any drugs I don't really need. I'm not worried about cheating anyone. If you aren't breaking the rules of a competition or organization you belong to such as UCI then it's between you and your doctor to decide if it's right for you. I wonder how many people on this site are incensed by the idea that someone would break the rules of a sport but then then break the law by sharing some herb with friends.


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## Local Hero

foto said:


> See, this is what I don't understand. If taking PEDs safely, with the guidance of a good doctor, can give these kinds of benefits, why shouldn't people be "allowed" to do it, and even compete in non-serious racing events? It should fall under "the pursuit of happiness" and can really be victimless if taken out of the shadows and made socially acceptable.


Part of me agrees with you. From what I understand a little HGH can be a fountain of youth. It can improve vision, smooth out wrinkles, help with back pain, and even help a person sleep. I don't suffer from any of those things--I'm not even old enough to race masters--but I would not hesitate to have a conversation with an anti aging dr in a few years if I suffered from something that could be easily fixed. Why suffer needlessly? 

On the other hand I think that doping violates the entire idea of sport and sportsmanship -- the purpose of competition is to test what the body is capable of doing. Ultimately it's a simple decision: Race bicycles clean or do something else. If someone really needs a few drugs to regain their youth maybe they can find a way to stay active without violating any rules. After all, there's no drug testing for mountain climbing, base jumping, cross fit, motocross racing, polo, warrior dashes, et cetera.


----------



## Wookiebiker

80sroadie said:


> I wonder how many people on this site are incensed by the idea that someone would break the rules of a sport but then then break the law by sharing some herb with friends.


The reality is everybody picks and chooses what rules/laws are OK to break and which are not. How many people on this forum have decided the laws in place around the speed limit don't really apply to them? Going over the posted speed limit is "Breaking the Law", but it doesn't stop ... pretty much anybody from doing it. Kinda falls under the ... everybody else is doing it, so it's OK ... yea, it's not doping, but it the same excuse.

People get incensed about doping but at the same time find it perfectly fine to cheat on their taxes, perform some less than ethical practices at work or do what ever it takes to get ahead. Is stealing peoples life savings in a Ponzi scheme less of a crime than what a doper does? I know a guy that used to be a stock broker and would throw up every day on his way to work because he knew how unethical the field was, but it kept him going back for years until he couldn't take it any longer and got a pharmacy degree.

There are much worse things in the world than a masters rider using testosterone, or professional riders using PED's to gain maximal performance ... It's against the rules, but in this day and age when has that mattered aside from the times they are doing it against you?


----------



## 32and3cross

foto said:


> See, this is what I don't understand. If taking PEDs safely, with the guidance of a good doctor, can give these kinds of benefits, why shouldn't people be "allowed" to do it, and even compete in non-serious racing events? It should fall under "the pursuit of happiness" and can really be victimless if taken out of the shadows and made socially acceptable.


Because if you do that you now set that as the entry point to be able to compete. The level of training as already increased alot for where it was in the past, adding doping basicly means that to some degree is gonna who can afford the better doctor instead of who can ride harder. Having raced agains people who where proven to have been doping I can tell its very frustrating to find out that you were not beaten because they were better but because they were doped (and Im not talking about a doped guy won and I finished in the pack, I talking about making the break multiple times only to get beat by a doper).


----------



## Fireform

32and3cross said:


> Because if you do that you now set that as the entry point to be able to compete. The level of training as already increased alot for where it was in the past, adding doping basicly means that to some degree is gonna who can afford the better doctor instead of who can ride harder. Having raced agains people who where proven to have been doping I can tell its very frustrating to find out that you were not beaten because they were better but because they were doped (and Im not talking about a doped guy won and I finished in the pack, I talking about making the break multiple times only to get beat by a doper).


^^^^^^^this.


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## Guest

PED's are not a fountain of youth actually. They do improve performance for a while but they also have side effects depending of the substance you are abusing. Side effects can be cancer, mood disorgers, stroke etc, etc. Also if you allow PED's in racing then you set a new standard to compete and this standard will also apply to junior racers. Also allowing PED's in cycling would come as an agreement for other sports such as baseball, track and field etc, etc. 

Here is some side effects that we would welcome when setting a new standard of competition allowing PED's. .Anyway I support a lifetime ban on the first offense. In team sports I support sanctions against the entire team for the actions of a single competitor (peer pressure rules). 



Effects of PEDs | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)


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## Local Hero

lighthouse54.1 said:


> PED's are not a fountain of youth actually. They do improve performance for a while but they also have side effects depending of the substance you are abusing. Side effects can be cancer, mood disorgers, stroke etc, etc. Also if you allow PED's in racing then you set a new standard to compete and this standard will also apply to junior racers. Also allowing PED's in cycling would come as an agreement for other sports such as baseball, track and field etc, etc.
> 
> Here is some side effects that we would welcome when setting a new standard of competition allowing PED's. .Anyway I support a lifetime ban on the first offense. In team sports I support sanctions against the entire team for the actions of a single competitor (peer pressure rules).
> 
> 
> 
> Effects of PEDs | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)


Unfortunately those scare tactics don't work very well. 

If educating the public on side effects and dangers of a drug were effective we wouldn't have any smokers in society. Either people don't think it will happen to them because they subscribe to some sort of personal fable or they simply don't want to worry about it because in their mind, by the time things catch up to them medicine will have a cure. A final possibility is that people know the truth about PEDS. 

The reality is that *some* drugs can make us stronger, look younger, or able to study for longer. Drugs give old impotent men the ability to achieve the best erections of their lives. If properly monitored, drugs can do these things safely. 

So the scare tactic is a poor tactic. A better tact is to say, "Yes, it's true that these drugs can help. But they are against the rules. Rules are rules and if you don't want to play by the rules you need to find another game." If a masters racer cannot live without drugs he'll have to learn to live without cycling.


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## spade2you

How many of us haven't taken a drug test? I haven't in 6 years worth of racing.


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## mpre53

Outside of the people who transport us to one place or another, how many professionals are subject to mandatory drug testing? Not employer imposed testing, now, but mandatory testing across the board. I had an anesthesiologist casually tell me, once, that I'd be shocked to hear how many of his colleagues abuse propofol. People entrust their life savings to investment professionals without a clue as to whether they have a substance abuse problem. Lawyers---tell me about it. Over the years I got admitted to practice in several states and never once had to pee in a cup. Hell, I've never even been fingerprinted.

But, we want to make damn sure that the guys who get paid money to entertain us through sports aren't bending the rules. ut:


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## spade2you

I'm required to take a drug test if there's an incident. (Knocks on wood)

We had an incident a few years back and that guy tested positive for a few things. He lost his license for a few years.


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## Cableguy

Wookiebiker said:


> I know a guy that used to be a stock broker and would throw up every day on his way to work because he knew how unethical the field was, but it kept him going back for years


Wow, his job was so bad he threw up in his car every day to work for years... I think anyone who did that for just a month (...years??) and didn't outright quit has severe issues. My mental picture of this is actually pretty funny, sounds like something from South Park.

_ ... Must keep going to work... can't stop... must make p-p-paper... *vomit*_


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## JohnStonebarger

Wookiebiker said:


> The reality is everybody picks and chooses what rules/laws are OK to break and which are not. How many people on this forum have decided the laws in place around the speed limit don't really apply to them? Going over the posted speed limit is "Breaking the Law", but it doesn't stop ... pretty much anybody from doing it. Kinda falls under the ... everybody else is doing it, so it's OK ... yea, it's not doping, but it the same excuse...


Good point, but it's true of doping as well. How many racers do you know who have never done cough medicine, an asthma inhaler, or even cannabis? (Cannabis a PED? Ha! About like alcohol, I'd say!) Remember, that the ephedrine or cannabis or whatever isn't meant to serve as a PED does'nt really matter: it's cheating.


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## Uncle Jam's Army

If anything, shouldn't cannabis be a PID (Performance Impairing Drug). Imagine showing up to a race stoned and saying, "Hey, why is everybody going so hard? Screw this, I'm going to the ice cream shop." 

Not that I think racing while impaired is safe (be it cannabis, alcohol, or anything else) or should be tried. 



JohnStonebarger said:


> Good point, but it's true of doping as well. How many racers do you know who have never done cough medicine, an asthma inhaler, or even cannabis? (Cannabis a PED? Ha! About like alcohol, I'd say!) Remember, that the ephedrine or cannabis or whatever isn't meant to serve as a PED does'nt really matter: it's cheating.


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## Local Hero

mpre53 said:


> Lawyers---tell me about it. Over the years I got admitted to practice in several states and never once had to pee in a cup. Hell, I've never even been fingerprinted.


California's moral character and fitness application includes a live scan.


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## 80sroadie

I work in nuke industry and get random tested constantly! We are required to report everything including supplements like fish oil! Lol, Get questioned about anything that is not natural if we didn't report in advance(not sure if they are testing for trace salmon). Some people complain that it is overkill testing for things that aren't illegal, but if you don't want to play by their rules you don't have to work there!


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## foto

Local Hero said:


> Unfortunately those scare tactics don't work very well.
> 
> If educating the public on side effects and dangers of a drug were effective we wouldn't have any smokers in society. Either people don't think it will happen to them because they subscribe to some sort of personal fable or they simply don't want to worry about it because in their mind, by the time things catch up to them medicine will have a cure. A final possibility is that people know the truth about PEDS.
> 
> The reality is that *some* drugs can make us stronger, look younger, or able to study for longer. Drugs give old impotent men the ability to achieve the best erections of their lives. If properly monitored, drugs can do these things safely.
> 
> So the scare tactic is a poor tactic. A better tact is to say, "Yes, it's true that these drugs can help. But they are against the rules. Rules are rules and if you don't want to play by the rules you need to find another game." If a masters racer cannot live without drugs he'll have to learn to live without cycling.


Rules are stupid.


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## jnbrown

I used to race 30 years ago and doping was unheard of back then.
Even if I wanted to race now, I wouldn't because of this.
It explains the huge difference in speed and power among cyclists at this age group which is not explainable by differences in training.
Two years is way too lenient it should be more like ten.


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## den bakker

jnbrown said:


> I used to race 30 years ago and doping was unheard of back then.
> Even if I wanted to race now, I wouldn't because of this.
> It explains the huge difference in speed and power among cyclists at this age group which is not explainable by differences in training.
> Two years is way too lenient it should be more like ten.


amphetamine is considered doping at that has been used for a lot more than 30 years.


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## SNS1938

Depressing reading really. Pro's are taking away from the spectacle of the ProTour by playing chicken with whoever will risk taking the most drugs. Amateurs are taking amateur racing way too seriously and prepared to copy the Pros. Amateurs are virtually never tested, so virtually never busted.

The only racing that appeals to me right now, are things like Rapha's Gentlemen's Races (if they still do them).

A surprise blanket test of all competitors at some races this year to catch (and ban for life) a few dozen riders. Shake things up and have a bit of a purge of the field.


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## mpre53

Local Hero said:


> California's moral character and fitness application includes a live scan.


You also have one living ***** of a bar exam, I hear. With no way to waive in on experience in another state. So the chances of me ever practicing there are just about nil. :wink:

Drug tests, fine. No problem there. But I've taken my last bar exam, ever.


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## hummina shadeeba

It was just recently caffeine was removed from the banned list at the olympics. Used to be that if you had more than the equivalent of a couple cups of coffee you were cheating and now I think you can have as much as you want. Cyclists love coffee cause it works. I'll bet the Ped users are loving how whatever drug they're taking works too. It's hard to argue with performance benefits. 

I think they should increase testing. But then people could get all doped up in the off-season training and come racing clean like the pros. And then there'd have to be off-season testing too, and it goes on and on. I still feel this is the best path. 

Marijuana is a performance enhancer. There's lots of anecdotal evidence from weight lifters on the web. I also read in a book about Pantani's life and death that he and other pros would take a combination of coffee and marijuana for training. The mixture had a name and I haven't been able to find it since and the book was too big.


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## tom_h

hummina shadeeba said:


> It was just recently caffeine was removed from the banned list at the olympics. Used to be that if you had more than the equivalent of a couple cups of coffee you were cheating and now I think you can have as much as you want. Cyclists love coffee cause it works. ...


Are you sure? I don't recall caffeine being a problem , within my memory ... but I could be wrong.

re caffeine, some interesting reading:

Christmas Book List for Endurance Nerds | Runner's World 
which had a link to this book:
Caffeine for Sports Performance: Louise Burke, Ben Desbrow, Lawrence Spriet: 9780736095112: Amazon.com: Books


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## den bakker

hummina shadeeba said:


> Marijuana is a performance enhancer. There's lots of anecdotal evidence from weight lifters on the web. I also read in a book about Pantani's life and death that he and other pros would take a combination of coffee and marijuana for training. The mixture had a name and I haven't been able to find it since and the book was too big.


you are probably thinking of pot belge. It does not have marijuana in it.


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## David Loving

Yes, but Darrow took on Scopes to send a message. There is Jacobs in his office and across the desk is this amateur cyclist with a grocery sack full of money. What's Jacobs going to do? He knows the guy's toast. If he doesn't take the case, some other lawyer gets the bag of money.


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## Cinelli 82220

hummina shadeeba said:


> There's lots of anecdotal evidence from weight lifters on the web.


I've never seen any on bodybuilding dot com or getbig. Nor in person. Very skeptical of this.


> The mixture had a name and I haven't been able to find it since and the book was too big.


You may be confusing it with "pot Belge" which is something else entirely!

Sorry, posted before seeing den bakker's reply


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## hummina shadeeba

caffeine was illegal till 2004 olympics at a higher dose.
sorry bout the pot belge mistake but I do still remember reading Pantani was into the green. As far as being a performance enhancer there are lots of people out there who will vouch for it on the web if you keep looking and I know lots of riders/racers who smoke...keeps them moving similarly to caffeine. Smoking isn't good for you..as smoking anything is bad.


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## den bakker

hummina shadeeba said:


> caffeine was illegal till 2004 olympics at a higher dose.
> sorry bout the pot belge mistake but I do still remember reading Pantani was into the green. As far as being a performance enhancer there are lots of people out there who will vouch for it on the web if you keep looking and I know lots of riders/racers who smoke...keeps them moving similarly to caffeine. Smoking isn't good for you..as smoking anything is bad.


lots of common "knowledge". for example, it's well known from former pros that a cigarette before a big climb is good to open up the air ways.


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## hummina shadeeba

Marijuana Shows Promising Results in Successfully Managing Asthma Related Symptoms | Medical Jane
I have asthma. It, as well as caffeine, noticeably open my lungs and I can get a full breath.


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## den bakker

hummina shadeeba said:


> Marijuana Shows Promising Results in Successfully Managing Asthma Related Symptoms | Medical Jane
> I have asthma. It, as well as caffeine, noticeably open my lungs and I can get a full breath.


leaving the safety of everybody else as a non-issue, does that compensate the impairment?


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## hummina shadeeba

its ok, I'm an expert. 

the safety of everyone else is a non-issue.


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## den bakker

hummina shadeeba said:


> its ok, I'm an expert.
> 
> the safety of everyone else is a non-issue.


lost the thread halfway through my question?


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## OnTheRivet

Thought I'd throw this out there. These (see picture) are the legs of a 58 year old SoCal master who suddenly in August of last year quit racing after crushing it for years, oh and he's one of Meekers ex-teamates. In fact every one of Meekers teamates bar one quite racing last year after rumors of his positive started circulating. In fact that one teammate was the only one who went to nationals from a team that usually sends everybody and stacks the podiums.


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## atpjunkie

OnTheRivet said:


> View attachment 290932
> Thought I'd throw this out there. These (see picture) are the legs of a 58 year old SoCal master who suddenly in August of last year quit racing after crushing it for years, oh and he's one of Meekers ex-teamates. In fact every one of Meekers teamates bar one quite racing last year after rumors of his positive started circulating. In fact that one teammate was the only one who went to nationals from a team that usually sends everybody and stacks the podiums.


Team wide doping I thought it was only US Postal?


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## spade2you

atpjunkie said:


> Team wide doping I thought it was only US Postal?


..and I thought that all stopped after 2005!


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## atpjunkie

spade2you said:


> ..and I thought that all stopped after 2005!


yeah, ask team lampre


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## perpetuum_mobile

Leave the old guys alone! Anyone who is older than 45 and still racing should be allowed to take whatever they like. Common guys, have some sympathy!

Why bashing those old dopers like they are some kind of criminals or child molesters? Why so much hate? They are hurting nobody. Let them have it. And stop crying about lost placings in amateur races! It is more pathetic than doping. It is just an amateur racing and they are not stealing your income or ruining your pro carrier.

I am 29 and healthy. For the past 5 years I have not had a single pill or injection. But when I am in my mid forties and things are starting to go downhill I will be taking T and HGH and whatever else I can lay my hands on. YOLO


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## Fireform

I'm a master's racer, and there is no more excuse for doping at this level than any other. Much less, in that no family's income is ever going to depend on the results. If you can't win without doping, don't race. Ride for fun or sell your bike. Just don't expect any sympathy from me.


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## T K

perpetuum_mobile said:


> Leave the old guys alone! Anyone who is older than 45 and still racing should be allowed to take whatever they like. Common guys, have some sympathy!
> 
> Why bashing those old dopers like they are some kind of criminals or child molesters? Why so much hate? They are hurting nobody. Let them have it. And stop crying about lost placings in amateur races! It is more pathetic than doping. It is just an amateur racing and they are not stealing your income or ruining your pro carrier.
> 
> I am 29 and healthy. For the past 5 years I have not had a single pill or injection. But when I am in my mid forties and things are starting to go downhill I will be taking T and HGH and whatever else I can lay my hands on. YOLO


I hope you are joking. If not, get back to us when you are in your forties and tell us the same crap.


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## Alaska Mike

perpetuum_mobile said:


> But when I am in my mid forties and things are starting to go downhill I will be taking T and HGH and whatever else I can lay my hands on. YOLO


Tell you what- listen to the side effects the next time a popular testosterone cream commercial comes on TV. Not just the ones the user can experience, but his family as well. Read the book _The Doper Next Door_. Then get back to me about your projected doping program.

Ethics aside, doping can have serious consequences.


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## redondoaveb

Meeker is back and winning again.
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/hes-baaaaaaack/


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## Local Hero

redondoaveb said:


> Meeker is back and winning again.
> https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2015/02/04/hes-baaaaaaack/


Bummer. He should have moved on to crossfit, warrior dashes, or BJJ. 

Oh well, it's not like the rest of the SoCal crew is clean.


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