# Low testosterone



## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

Is anyone an expert on low testosterone and its effect on a cyclist? Does anyone have a good website with info on the same?

I'm 58 years old and a 44 year racing/training/riding cyclist and I know (through blood tests) that I'm at the low end of the T scale. It's hard for me to know if the things I experience (poor recovery, low strength etc) are due to low T or just the aging process.

Would taking testosterone therapy have the potential to improve me?

I have an appointment to talk this over with my Doc this week.

**This is nothing to do with Floyd and/or his problems so let's not go there. I've probably been low in T since before Floyd was born.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Talk to your doctor either way. If you want to get hard-core about the drugs to see a boost in performance, see an anti-aging specialist and start taking HGH.

Honestly, testosterone and/or HGH are expensive no matter what your condition. There is a 99.99% chance it won't be covered by insurance, simply because you have low testosterone.

As for testosterone therapy improving your fitness, etc - yes it will, but at a hefty cost (money and not).


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## borregokid (Jun 9, 2005)

*No one will admit to using it*

Just doing a little internet research, there were an estimated 2.4 million prescription written for Andro Gel and Testim in 2004 and the numbers were rising. So maybe 3 million prescription this year. There has to be a few guys who are amateur racers in the over 35 brackets using this stuff. Mark McGwire used Andro-Gel to hit 70 home runs and Barry Bonds used just about everything, steroids, hgh and epo. Andro Gel could be kind of expensive, $150 or more a month. There was a guy who was in his mid 50's who posted in one of the forums that Andro-Gel made him faster. Interesting that there is so little research on athletic performance and Andro-Gel and Testim. I guess it will increase your muscle mass and decrease fat without even exercising.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

borregokid said:


> Just doing a little internet research, there were an estimated 2.4 million prescription written for Andro Gel and Testim in 2004 and the numbers were rising. So maybe 3 million prescription this year. There has to be a few guys who are amateur racers in the over 35 brackets using this stuff. Mark McGwire used Andro-Gel to hit 70 home runs and Barry Bonds used just about everything, steroids, hgh and epo. Andro Gel could be kind of expensive, $150 or more a month. There was a guy who was in his mid 50's who posted in one of the forums that Andro-Gel made him faster. Interesting that there is so little research on athletic performance and Andro-Gel and Testim. I guess it will increase your muscle mass and decrease fat without even exercising.


Apparently the muscle you gain and the fat you lose only happens when you are taking the drugs. As soon as you stop, your body goes back to the way it was and it is nearly impossible to maintain your new shape simply because your body isn't making the testosterone it used to.

If you do not need steroids, do not take them - especially at an older age. You are not making a living off of bike racing and the side effects are not worth it. Yes, it does include testicular atrophy, decreased sexual drive and has irreversible changes including male-pattern baldness, gynaecomastia (breast development), liver tumors, stroke, and heart attack.

Actually, read this - this has all of what I said and more: http://www.itftennis.com/juniors/usefultips/antidoping/steroids.asp#what


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## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> Talk to your doctor either way. If you want to get hard-core about the drugs to see a boost in performance, see an anti-aging specialist and start taking HGH.
> Honestly, testosterone and/or HGH are expensive no matter what your condition. There is a 99.99% chance it won't be covered by insurance, simply because you have low testosterone.
> As for testosterone therapy improving your fitness, etc - yes it will, but at a hefty cost (money and not).


Up here in Canada, testosterone replacement therapy, when prescribed by a doctor, is covered under our national health/drug plan. I don't necessarily want it for improving my fitness; I'm looking for it to benefit the parts of my general health that the lack of it (fitness/recovery included) might be affecting. If my wife is on hormone replacement therapy, I'd like to be considered for it too if it's deemed appropriate.


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## PullThrough (Jun 12, 2006)

This is interesting. I'd like to know what your doctor says. If you wouldn't mind, please keep us posted on your experiences.


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## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

PullThrough said:


> This is interesting. I'd like to know what your doctor says. If you wouldn't mind, please keep us posted on your experiences.


For sure! I was there this morning for my appointment (a specialist urologist) and he's sending me for a bunch of blood tests - testosterone being one of them.

Then I have a follow up appointment in 6 weeks (arrgghh!) to go over the results and discuss treatment. But I will get back to you.

BTW - he says (his words) "Floyd is toast".


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## pr0230 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Mee too...*



dburns said:


> Is anyone an expert on low testosterone and its effect on a cyclist? Does anyone have a good website with info on the same?
> 
> I'm 58 years old and a 44 year racing/training/riding cyclist and I know (through blood tests) that I'm at the low end of the T scale. It's hard for me to know if the things I experience (poor recovery, low strength etc) are due to low T or just the aging process.
> 
> ...


I'm 48 and was diagnosed with Low T... I was prescribed Androgel... 

I had low libedo, getting up steps was a chore etc.... So I started using androgel... But I think it put me over the edge, too high T, so I use 1/2 pack each time, and skip a day after a pack is used... So basically I'm using 1/2 of what I should be using...

I feel better , but do not use the T as a recovery or riding super gel... I use it to feel normal...

Two points.... If you have prostate cancer or enlarged prostate, you CANNOT use testosterone... death sentence.... You have to be checked regularly ... 

A friend of mine HAS prostate cancer and has to take a treatment that ZERO's out his testosterone.... he does feel tired and it slows him down , but he rides thru it.... 

So: does it help ... Yes...
Is it safe to use ... Need to see a doctor and get checked regularly... 
Can you do 
without it ... Yes, but again see your DR....

If you want to talk , contact me offline and I will send Phone number...


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## seslabaugh (Jul 17, 2006)

dburns said:


> It's hard for me to know if the things I experience (poor recovery, low strength etc) are due to low T or just the aging process.
> 
> Would taking testosterone therapy have the potential to improve me?


Low hormone levels are part of the aging process. Many hormones peak at about age 20-25, and then decline for the rest of your life.

DHEA is a precursor to testosterone. DHEA is a normal human hormone that will improve your physical and mental well being. Therefore it is on the UCI and Olympic banned substance lists. Give that a try. You can research and purchase it on www.LEF.org. Just enter DHEA in the search field to find their DHEA articles. 

From: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag95/95dec4.htm
"Dr. Yen summarized the first two studies by saying that DHEA improved psychological and physical well-being, improved the ability to cope with stress, improved physical mobility, reduced chronic joint pain, improved the quality of sleep, elevated IGF-1, elevated muscle mass, and, in men but not in women, reduced body fat and increased strength. He further stated that he personally felt the improved sense of well-being was due to the improved physical fitness and improved sleep rather than to direct modification of brain neurotransmitters by DHEA or its sulfate."


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Sure, go for it*



seslabaugh said:


> Therefore it is on the UCI and Olympic banned substance lists. Give that a try. You can research and purchase it on www.LEF.org.


Sure, what the heck. Get your body chemistry all whacked based on promotions from a site that sells this stuff. They couldn't sell if it wasn't safe, right? I'm sure there's no chance of ANY side effects. /sarcasm


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## seslabaugh (Jul 17, 2006)

Kerry Irons said:


> Sure, what the heck. Get your body chemistry all whacked based on promotions from a site that sells this stuff. They couldn't sell if it wasn't safe, right? I'm sure there's no chance of ANY side effects. /sarcasm


Your ignorance is showing. 
Clearly:
a) you don't know anything about DHEA,
b) you don't know anything about L.E.F.
c) you don't know how to research topics of interest on reputable web-sites on the internet.

Dburns can do his own research if he wishes, as you would be well advised to do also.

You can buy DHEA anywhere you want to, but if you want pharmaceutical quality, you will consider lef.org.


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## andrello (Oct 6, 2004)

dburns said:


> Is anyone an expert on low testosterone and its effect on a cyclist? Does anyone have a good website with info on the same?


Here's an interesting and counterintuitive effect of low testosterone. It's also very common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_Male_Syndrome


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## doug in co (Feb 4, 2004)

From Medline:
"No studies on the long-term effects of DHEA have been conducted. DHEA can cause higher than normal levels of androgens and estrogens in the body, and theoretically may increase the risk of prostate, breast, ovarian, and other hormone-sensitive cancers. Therefore, it is not recommended for regular use without supervision by a licensed health professional."

I wouldn't take it, even though I am also a tired old man..


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## zentao (May 30, 2006)

*Also...*

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-08/jaaj-ltl081006.php

"Low testosterone levels associated with increased risk of death in men
Men who have a low testosterone level after age 40 may have a higher risk of death over a four-year period than those with normal levels of the hormone, according to a report in the August 14/28 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

Unlike women undergoing menopause, middle-aged men generally do not experience a dramatic decrease in the production of sex hormones, according to background information in the article. Testosterone levels gradually decline as a man ages, decreasing approximately 1.5 percent per year after age 30. The effects of low testosterone levels include decreased muscle mass and bone density, insulin resistance, decreased sex drive, less energy, irritability and feelings of depression."


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## borregokid (Jun 9, 2005)

*Rampant Testosterone Therapy?*

The percentage of "low testosterone" patients in the VA study mentioned is not 4-5% as some have mentioned but might be as high as 47% as they mentioned. We really arent too far from what the drug companies want and that is testosterone therapy for any male over 40 or so. It would mirror the "estrogen therapy" that women have been taking for years. 

The side effect I think as far as racing is concerned isnt that it levels the playing field but it distorts the playing field. With 2-3 million men on some sort of testosterone therapy I am sure that more than just a few guys are using the stuff. Why not? You can add 10-12 pounds of muscle and get rid of the bulging waist line. I was at a race earlier this year when a 61 year old guy took off at the start and left all the 55+ riders sucking air. I did another race where a different 58 year old beat more than half the field including pro's. In another TT he beat more than half the Cat 3 riders. How is it possible that a 58 year old can post the same type of times that say a very competitve 43 year old can? 

I have done a few races-never seen any drug testing at any of them. With so many guys on Testosterone therapy I think its going to eventually make a joke of the older age groups if it hasnt done so already.


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## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

Here is the belated follow-up to my "low testosterone" problem.

I went to a local urologist with my suspected low T complaint and this set off an alarm bell in his head. He told me that whenever they suspect low T they always check for the over-abundance of another hormone - Prolactin. Prolactin, if its level is high, suppresses the production of Testosterone. Prolactin is the hormone that makes women lactate after giving birth. Don't laugh as women have a small level of the male hormone testosterone.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/Prolactin-15129

My blood tests came back positive for high levels of Prolactin and, as suspected, low testosterone.

High levels of Prolactin in men is caused by benign tumors in the brain's Pituitary gland. I had a cat-scan to see if they could see the tumors but they couldn't. I was told that a single cell tumor will emit Prolactin.

So before any Testosterone replacement therapy could be considered we had to try to suppress the Prolactin. This is done with the drug Bromocriptine. The Doc sent me away with a 3-month prescription for 2.5mg tablets of Bromocriptine and I was to return after the three months and another blood test to see how I was doing.

In January I had the test and went back to see the Doc. He was pleased with the results - the Prolactin was down to almost zero (all males have some P) and my T was about 1/3rd into the acceptable range of that hormone.

He asked how I was feeling and whether the higher T had provided any benefits. As throughout all these winter months I'd been riding our indoor velodrome 2-3x per week I was eager to see if the higher T levels would improve my performance any. I told him that in the first month of taking the drug, my "libido" level (what a dumb word; he agreed that "horny" was much better) went through the roof but in the past two months that had dropped way down. I think my recovery from riding is better but my performance on the track was not improved. My 500metre TT times had not improved even though I'd gone from almost zero T to 1/3rd the way into the acceptable range (I don't remember the exact figures).

As the bromocriptine pills had reduced the prolactin hormone down to normal male levels and increased my T to acceptable levels for an almost 60 year old, he was reluctant to do anything further. The experiment was a total success to him.

I asked if I could go on testosterone replacement therapy to get me to the 3/4 level (so I could "do a Floyd") but he would not agree, re-stating his position that my two hormones were now at a realistic level.

I told him that I was disappointed that I didn't feel any improvement in my "strength" (or speed). His reply was that I was being unrealistic in my expectations.

I have to return in July for follow-up blood tests to see how I'm doing. My "libido" is still low and my recovery feels good (I can ride more frequently) but I still don't notice any speed/power improvement.

That's it folks!! I can't bend my handlebars, can't rip off an 11 second 200 metre and the ladies don't run for cover.

Conclusion - I was expecting more than I got, especially with all the press that pro cyclists get when they have an increase of testosterone. My 33% testosterone gain is providing me with barely noticeable benefits.


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## Strider (Aug 3, 2004)

I was prescribed testosterone for about three years for 'Hypo-Gonadism', meaning they didn't put out enough.

More recently I have changed doctors, and the current doctor will not give me a prescription. Too bad, 'cause it was wonderful for me. 

Your post gives me a question to ask the doctor about my issues, so I really appreciate your bringing this up.


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## dburns (Apr 10, 2006)

Strider said:


> I was prescribed testosterone for about three years for 'Hypo-Gonadism', meaning they didn't put out enough.
> More recently I have changed doctors, and the current doctor will not give me a prescription. Too bad, 'cause it was wonderful for me.
> Your post gives me a question to ask the doctor about my issues, so I really appreciate your bringing this up.


There's a lot of info out there (Google etc) about testosterone and its relationship to prolactin. A few years back my GP put me on testosterone replacement just because I had a low blood test result. My current urologist (obviously more of an expert on these issues) was disgusted that my GP had issued testosterone replacement without checking to find out why I had low T first.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

http://www.bsnonline.net/products/products_expanded.php?id=834266103058




dburns said:


> I told him that I was dissapointed that I didn't feel any improvement in my "strength" (or speed). His reply was that I was being unrealistic in my expectations.
> 
> I have to return in July for follow-up blood tests to see how I'm doing. My "libido" is still low and my recovery feels good (I can ride more frequently) but I still don't notice any speed/power improvement.
> 
> ...


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## Orbea_Carbon_Force (Apr 27, 2004)

I am not an expert but I have been told by a good cat1 coach that endurance athletes do have lower TT level than the average person. You need TT to recover from your training. That's why older athletes need to recover more often than someone who is younger. If I were you I would try to find a more natural way to increase my TT level, if there is a natural way.  



dburns said:


> Is anyone an expert on low testosterone and its effect on a cyclist? Does anyone have a good website with info on the same?
> 
> I'm 58 years old and a 44 year racing/training/riding cyclist and I know (through blood tests) that I'm at the low end of the T scale. It's hard for me to know if the things I experience (poor recovery, low strength etc) are due to low T or just the aging process.
> 
> ...


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## fleck (Mar 25, 2005)

plenty of women out there have low testosterone and still manage to beat me. I don't think it's worth it. 

racers that dope are looking for that extra 1/2% 

don't think it will buy you much more.


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## Strider (Aug 3, 2004)

In my case Testosterone did much more than raise my libido.

Before the monthly shot it was like being in a large dark windowless building on a cold winters day. After I got the shot it was liking walking to the end of the building, and into a warm shaft of sunlight. Really a great feeling that lasted about three weeks.

This was before I began riding so that was not a factor, and it didn't seem to impact my weight lifting. As for cancer; we all eventually die of something and for me it was worth the risk and I will try to get the current doctor to reconsider testosterone treatment.

Finally, it is not the answer for everyone, and I don't recommend it just to improve riding.


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## [email protected] (Mar 25, 2007)

Try the physicians at the Institute of New Medicine in Seattle. They are nationwide leaders in this area. They focus on endurance athletes and are the physicians for many top riders like George Hincapie, Ryder Hesjedal, and many many others (medical privacy keeps us from listing everyone unless they sign a release) and top triathletes like Peter Reid and Tim DeBoom. They are amazing physicians and they are worth the contacting for information. People fly to Seattle for treatment from them. My recommendation to see them is based on thier experience with hormone levels and cyclists. A common MD cannot relate to the stress on the body of cycling training - you need to see someone who specializes in that area. My advice is to give them a call. www.inewmed.com


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## Strider (Aug 3, 2004)

Russell,

If you were thinking of me in your comments......as I tried to say, I don't think testosterone should be taken without a great deal of thought, and not for sports.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Orbea_Carbon_Force said:


> You need TT to recover from your training. QUOTE]
> 
> Unfortunately it's not that clear. From what I've seen it doesn't appear Testosterone does much for endurance performance even in runners who are most likely placing much greater demand on their muscular system because of all the damaging eccentric contractions which don't occur in cycling. Even in the studies I've seen that use much more potent anabolic steroids it doesn't appear to do much, if anything, probably because endurance adaptations rely very little on increasing muscle mass.


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## seslabaugh (Jul 17, 2006)

*then why are DHEA & testosterone banned?*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Unfortunately it's not that clear. From what I've seen it doesn't appear Testosterone does much for endurance performance even in runners who are most likely placing much greater demand on their muscular system because of all the damaging eccentric contractions which don't occur in cycling. Even in the studies I've seen that use much more potent anabolic steroids it doesn't appear to do much, if anything, probably because endurance adaptations rely very little on increasing muscle mass.


So then why should the UCI and Olympics ban DHEA & testosterone?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

seslabaugh said:


> So then why should the UCI and Olympics ban DHEA & testosterone?


Because WADA bans pretty much everything regardless of it's efficacy as a PED and that is the code the UCI has agreed to follow. 

Additionally the banned drugs are across the board for all sports. Something like anabolic steroids are probably very effective for "power" sports like sprinting, weightlifting, etc. but not endurance sports, just like EPO is likely quite effective for an endurance athlete while doing nothing for an archer.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

dburns said:


> Is anyone an expert on low testosterone and its effect on a cyclist? Does anyone have a good website with info on the same?.


I had a book by a guy named Shippen, I think it was called the Testosterone Syndrome. There are many differring opinions on T replacement therapy.



dburns said:


> I'm 58 years old and a 44 year racing/training/riding cyclist and I know (through blood tests) that I'm at the low end of the T scale. It's hard for me to know if the things I experience (poor recovery, low strength etc) are due to low T or just the aging process..


Many doctors believe the aging process, and reduced hormone levels are inseperable. As one poster noted, T levels decline for most men after the teens and early 20's. Many factors can reduce T levels, stress being a major factor. When I was 35(I'm 42 now) my T tested in a low normal range and I was stressed and tired often. I applied Androgel for about 3 months and I wasn't working out or running much at the time. A little packet of that definitely gives a pretty big boost. Nothing crazy, just an increased feeling of well being. My co - workers were asking me if I was working out. It gives you a little more size, like a pump after a set of curls. The doctor I went to was kind of big on the hormone replacement regimes because I spoke to his colleague in his office and he didn't share the the same opinion. My Testosterone was tested a couple of months after I stopped applying Androgel and it was in a mid normal range, the range is very wide, however. Also, just because one person has more T in the blood doesn't mean that they can effectively use as much as a person with a lower level. There are testosterone receptors also and the issue is more complex than just blood levels.



dburns said:


> Would taking testosterone therapy have the potential to improve me??.


Oh, absolutely. I will keep it in mind myself, if I start feeling noticeably more tired.



dburns said:


> I have an appointment to talk this over with my Doc this week..


And keep in mind, a lot of doctors are behind the curve on this one. If your doctor dismisses this idea too easily I would get a second opinion. You only live once, you take vitamins and other supplements, The whole friggen society is on performance enhancers such as ******, cialis..i would urge you to do your own research....



dburns said:


> **This is nothing to do with Floyd and/or his problems so let's not go there. I've probably been low in T since before Floyd was born.


I really don't believe the positive Landis results...He's tested all the time and there is this anomaly that doesn't exist on the previous test, or the subsequent test? Also it wasn't his absolute testosterone that was high. I think his epitestosterone was just very low, throwing the whole ratio out of whack. At any rate, he didn't have a crazy level like bodybuilders take. They are taking massive amounts of this stuff. With the Androgel, if its the same as it was a few years ago, you get a little packet, and rub it on your arm and shoulder, it's transdermal..It's not going to make you crazy or anything, It may give you a decent boost, more energy..No roid rage or anything like that. If I were you, I'd strongly consider it...


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

btw, Shippen is an MD. Here are some links for the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Syndrome-Eugene-Shippen/dp/087131858X

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item33560.html

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ean=9780871318589&z=y

http://www.maxmuscle.com/index.cfm?fa=article&doc_id=112&subcat=science


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

What do you believe about Landis's other previous teammates who failed the same test?

Sasha Unweider for one. Why is it only Phonak that has failed the test (ok, I'm not sure if other riders from other teams are, but I haven't read/heard of any)?





lookrider said:


> I really don't believe the positive Landis results...He's tested all the time and there is this anomaly that doesn't exist on the previous test, or the subsequent test? Also it wasn't his absolute testosterone that was high. I think his epitestosterone was just very low, throwing the whole ratio out of whack. At any rate, he didn't have a crazy level like bodybuilders take. They are taking massive amounts of this stuff. With the Androgel, if its the same as it was a few years ago, you get a little packet, and rub it on your arm and shoulder, it's transdermal..It's not going to make you crazy or anything, It may give you a decent boost, more energy..No roid rage or anything like that. If I were you, I'd strongly consider it...


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