# Riding unofficially in organized ride?



## DaveW88 (Sep 3, 2006)

Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


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## Eschelon (Jan 29, 2004)

*It's legal*



DaveW88 said:


> Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


Nothing illegal or unethical. It's their event and the streets/roads are not theirs---you just happen to be in the same spot as they are.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

How would you be different from another rider who was riding the same or similar route and had no idea this event was going to happen? If you don't use the amenities the event provides, why should you be excluded? You're not stealing anything from them.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

I've been riding along when a race I didn't know about came through. I stopped to watch, but if you can keep up with them without interfering I don't see what would be the issue.


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## bellzisu (May 1, 2013)

If you don't need their support or help then you are ok. I have done Ragbrai here in Iowa several years and never registered. Never say the point if you are self supported.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

... unless it was on a private road or property (oddly enuff, there are private roads in the US long enuff to accommodate a century ride without much or any backtracking) there is no harm... free and public access.

Plus, occasionally some one will throw you a bone (water, cookie, banana) anyway.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Akirasho said:


> Plus, occasionally some one will throw you a bone (water, cookie, banana) anyway.


the things paid for by others entry fee?


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

It’s certainly not illegal but it strikes me as inappropriate. I would not do it but others probably see it differently. Its not like you just happened upon the route; you went there for the purpose of taking advantage of the route and markings


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

DaveG said:


> It’s certainly not illegal but it strikes me as inappropriate. I would not do it but others probably see it differently. Its not like you just happened upon the route; you went there for the purpose of taking advantage of the route and markings


and in some cases road closure and or blocking of intersections by the organizers or police paid for by them.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

den bakker said:


> the things paid for by others entry fee?


... yup, not everyone is uptight about squeezing a penny.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Akirasho said:


> ... yup, not everyone is uptight about squeezing a penny.


except when it comes to registration fees of course.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

I agree that it seems a little inappropriate. I don't think there would be anything wrong with 'following' the group though.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

A lot of waivers and stuff can go into an event. If someone from the outside comes in and is involved in a crash or something then I can see things getting hairy.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

RaptorTC said:


> A lot of waivers and stuff can go into an event. If someone from the outside comes in and is involved in a crash or something then I can see things getting hairy.


plus there was probably a limit for participants for a reason.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

den bakker said:


> except when it comes to registration fees of course.


... there are those among us who watch the books, there are those among us who read the books... fun!!!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

If the event is grossly overpriced, like most grand fondos, I have no problem with pirating it. 

I don't want to stop anyway, so I don't get my money's worth in ride support.


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## JStrube (Dec 19, 2013)

den bakker said:


> the things paid for by others entry fee?


Agreed. Might not be illegal, but it is unethical.

"I want to ride this cool route, with all these people, but not pay, nor sign the release, etc..."

Plus, these events are often allowed by cities & counties bsaed on participant numbers. Poaching a freebee puts that licence in jeopardy.

The list goes on.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

un·eth·i·cal [uhn-eth-i-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct.
2.
not in accord with the standards of a profession: She treated patients outside the area of her training, and the appropriate medical organization punished her unethical behavior.

The second definition wouldn't apply since cycling in this case isn't being applied as a profession, so definition #1 reigns on this situation. If the OP isn't using the support services which registered participants get, it's technically not unethical since he wouldn't be taking anything for which he didn't pay. If there happen to be police and EMTs accompanying this ride, the OP's taxes (and everyone's taxes) already paid for them to be working, so that's a wash. Moreover, not signing a release or waiver is a moot point because nobody signs these every time they ride on their own anyway. Waivers are intended to release the host organization from liabilities, but if the OP isn't participating with the event hosted by said organization, there's no need to even mention his abstinence from signing a release.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

den bakker said:


> plus there was probably a limit for participants for a reason.


This. Don't fvck things up for everyone else. Pay attention and register right when it opens or find another place to ride that day.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

SauronHimself said:


> un·eth·i·cal [uhn-eth-i-kuhl] Show IPA
> adjective
> 1.
> lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct.
> ...


from the el tour de tucson organizer: 
"DeBernardis said money from the city and county will help abate the high cost of police, about $150,000." 
You have any idea why he would say such nonsense if it's paid for over taxes? 
Should I cut and paste word definitions?


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

Technically, there shouldn't be any problem with riding along the event given it's a public road and available for all. You will probably benefit a bit from the directions that are laid out for the cyclist, but I don't think most cyclist would really have a problem with that as long as your not using the service stations.

If there are only a few cyclist doing this in an event.... I don't think it's a big issues. However, imagine everyone starts doing that and and event that is originally slated for say 1000 participants get 2000 that show up. I would be somewhat irked by that kind of turn out. Cycling Events are not typically done to make money and event cost are there to cover the promotion and support services. I'd hate for an event to get ruined if all the cyclist go there to ride the event with the notion that there is not need to sign up and pay.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

den bakker said:


> from the el tour de tucson organizer:
> "DeBernardis said money from the city and county will help abate the high cost of police, about $150,000."
> You have any idea why he would say such nonsense if it's paid for over taxes?
> Should I cut and paste word definitions?


You're awfully emotionally compromised for such a simple error. Your response still doesn't address someone who wants to ride along any roads on this route and doesn't know the event is being organized. Frankly, it shouldn't be any different than someone who wants to ride on their own and does know of it. If they don't take the sag support services being offered, they're not stealing anything.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

SauronHimself said:


> You're awfully emotionally compromised for such a simple error.


ok you were caught talking bs as usual, don't continue then second guessing my emotions, in other words. stop digging. 
it comes down to a bit of decency and respect for those actually paying for the services, even on a public road for one day. (you can look up those words as well if you want).


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## seacoaster (May 9, 2010)

I can’t speak for all organized events, but organized rides in my area require permits for every town they pass through, and the route must be approved. Hiring traffic control (usually off duty police officers) for certain intersections, etc. is required to obtain these permits. Insurance as well. There is quite a bit of work and expense that goes into organizing these events. Riding along without paying registration fees is freeloading from those who do.


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## Herkwo (Nov 8, 2002)

Completely unethical and potentially liable for any damages you are attributable for. I for one would pass on the ride and register earlier next time... Most instructions on organized events/GranFondos have this phrase (or one similar) posted:
"No unregistered participants. Unregistered riders will be prohibited from entering certain sections of the course during the Gran Fondo. They will not have access to refueling stations, finish line celebratory lunch, or other event activities."

Here is some more info regarding "poaching" an organized ride from a popular event:

The cost associated with riding the GranFondo is much more than just the cost of food along the route, and for this reason “poaching” is not allowed and even monitored.

There is a significant investment made in services related to safety. Things like motorcycle marshal escorts, on-bike marshals, CHP, police, fire, and emergency communications, protocol and SAG support are just some of the things Bike Monkey takes on to produce the event to a high standard of safety. These are things that participants pay for when they sign up for the event.

As event promoters, we must also show respect for the rural communities through which we travel. This means having control over the number of participants at any given time or place so we can communicate the impact and allow ourselves and local, working residents to plan appropriately.

All rider number plates and bibs are color-coded to route. People identified by course marshals to be riding a longer route than the one for which they registered will be asked not to return next year. This is done as a matter of safety, not exclusivity and certainly not as punishment. As the event matures we hope to offer more people the opportunity to ride its longer routes. However, we are testing the limits of mass-participation cycling events and participants who understand and appreciate this effort will help us to ensure that the GranFondo lives on for many successful years.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

seacoaster said:


> Riding along without paying registration fees is freeloading from those who do.


Bingo. If you happen to be out riding and you really did not know it was going on, no worries. But don't pirate the ride.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

SauronHimself said:


> Your response still doesn't address someone who wants to ride along any roads on this route and doesn't know the event is being organized. Frankly, it shouldn't be any different than someone who wants to ride on their own and does know of it. If they don't take the sag support services being offered, they're not stealing anything.


Trying to explain ethics to a person who lacks ethics is hopeless. You really can't tell the difference between someone who knew there's an event and someone who didn't? You have no sense of ethics. You sound just like a lawyer friend of mine. Fully obsessed with the details of a situation but without any human grasp of the overall picture. Your parents failed.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Red90 said:


> Cycling Events are not typically done to make money and event cost are there to cover the promotion and support services.


Exactly the opposite. Cycling events are typically done to make money to support a club, charity, etc. 
Fundraise | Levi's GranFondo
The Classic GranFondo San Diego Bike Ride ? Volunteer Information
Prospera Granfondo Axel Merckx Okanagan Charities | Granfondo Axel Merckx
Fundraise - Gran Fondo NJ


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Lelandjt said:


> Trying to explain ethics to a person who lacks ethics is hopeless. You really can't tell the difference between someone who knew there's an event and someone who didn't? You have no sense of ethics. You sound just like a lawyer friend of mine. Fully obsessed with the details of a situation but without any human grasp of the overall picture. Your parents failed.


When you can construct a cogent, rational argument that doesn't resort to ad hominem, come talk to me.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't think its a problem.
But if you are doing the exact same case course, riding with other participants and timing yourself for the course you are in effect doing the event. Why do just do a different course that day or enter next time? Personally I don't like riding in mass events. 
My wife and i have been on several rides where we encountered an event we did not know about before hand.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

tlg said:


> Exactly the opposite. Cycling events are typically done to make money to support a club, charity, etc.
> Fundraise | Levi's GranFondo
> The Classic GranFondo San Diego Bike Ride ? Volunteer Information
> Prospera Granfondo Axel Merckx Okanagan Charities | Granfondo Axel Merckx
> Fundraise - Gran Fondo NJ


OK, I stand corrected. I was thinking more of rides aren't really meant to make money for private profit. If you ride without paying, your taking advantage of the work put into these charities. it would behoove me even more so to pay for the event if it was a charity.


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## hubcyclist (Jan 12, 2014)

I wish, as far as charity rides go, there would be lower commitments required. I'm trying for my first, and it's $300. Some folks have extensive personal networks and can leverage those into fundraising. I'm personally in a position with only a few close friends and work colleagues, so it's tough to try and meet that threshold. As others have said, I'm sure it costs a lot to both support the event and a charity, but I think I'd try to do more if there were lower fundraising requirements.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

I wouldn't do it simply because of all the other cyclists. That would drive me crazy. Cars are bad enough.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

The ride is for those that have paid for the privilege to ride or raised enough funds to ride. All other cheap sobs ride elsewhere. I can't believe the nerve of some people.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Upnorth said:


> The ride is for those that have paid for the privilege to ride or raised enough funds to ride. All other cheap sobs ride elsewhere. I can't believe the nerve of some people.


1). They don't, in fact, own the road. I ride centuries all the time and don't feel any obligation to surrender my favorite route to some profit seeking out of town Fondo promoter. 

2). I don't pirate rides that benefit charities. That's different. 

3) If they're complaining as I'm towing their flabby butts into the headwind, I've never been able to hear it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

SauronHimself said:


> When you can construct a cogent, rational argument that doesn't resort to ad hominem, come talk to me.


this message was brought to you from mr: "You're awfully emotionally compromised for such a simple error." 
priceless.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

You cannot tell me that a Organized Century or Gran Fondo comes to town and just happens to choose exact same route you ride every day. Even in slightest chance this occurred you can pick another route for 1 day, there are more roads.

When Santa Parade or circus comes to town you join in as well?


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

SauronHimself said:


> When you can construct a cogent, rational argument that doesn't resort to ad hominem, come talk to me.


You still sound just like a lawyer and like I said, explaining ethics to someone who lacks them is hopeless. Why bother?


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

Lelandjt said:


> explaining ethics to someone who lacks them is hopeless.


Good point.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Upnorth said:


> When Santa Parade or circus comes to town you join in as well?


Back in my younger wilder days, my drinking partner and myself invited ourselves into the South Side St. Patricks Day parade. 
The Police, not so kindly, asked us to leave.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Upnorth said:


> You cannot tell me that a Organized Century or Gran Fondo comes to town and just happens to choose exact same route you ride every day. Even in slightest chance this occurred you can pick another route for 1 day, there are more roads.
> 
> When Santa Parade or circus comes to town you join in as well?


If I'm not eating their goodies or drinking their drinks or using their porta johns it's none of their damn business where I ride.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

DaveW88 said:


> Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


Nothing illegal or uncool here. They don't own the rode and as long as you don't use any of there amenties I don't see a problem with that.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

Using someone else's words - your parents failed I'm afraid. A sanctioned event is for those that are registered. A slight overlap for few miles, okay I'll give you that. But what is being talked about here is joining the ride start to finish as a pirate, using ride support or not it is still same bad lack of ethics issue. In the good old days they sank or shot pirates.


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## majbuzz (Nov 30, 2012)

Last year I rode an organized century and one guy apparently jumped in with some friends without being registered. He stopped at a rest stop I was at and was just hanging around with his friends. He didn't get a drink, banana or anything but got busted out by one of the volunteers. I overheard the conversation and it went kind of like this, "you can ride away in a different direction or we can give you a ride back to the start, but you're not continuing". He opted for the free ride back to the start. Once he was loaded in the van and drove off, everyone hanging out started clapping. Kinda funny honestly.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Upnorth said:


> Using someone else's words - your parents failed I'm afraid. A sanctioned event is for those that are registered. A slight overlap for few miles, okay I'll give you that. But what is being talked about here is joining the ride start to finish as a pirate, using ride support or not it is still same bad lack of ethics issue. In the good old days they sank or shot pirates.


Someone needs to loosen their helmet a few clicks.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

majbuzz said:


> ... "you can ride away in a different direction or we can give you a ride back to the start, but you're not continuing". He opted for the free ride back to the start.


he should have called their bluff...what was their recourse? knock him off his bike and conduct a citizens arrest...?

ridiculous self-important puffery...


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## Bevo (Dec 26, 2012)

I have been involved in motorcycle and mountain bike events that were closed to the paying participants. At two events people jumped in and participated without paying or signing waivers, one ended up paralyzed and the other badly injured.
Both events were sued and in the motorcycle event this club that was active for 12 years with 120 members was shut down.
The mountain bike event was also sued because it was a kid and the organizer was sued and this event also shut down.

Keep in mind the paying users and the event, no one expects to get hurt but if you hurt another person hundreds may lose a favoured event.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

SauronHimself said:


> How would you be different from another rider who was riding the same or similar route and had no idea this event was going to happen? If you don't use the amenities the event provides, why should you be excluded? You're not stealing anything from them.


One of the amenities is enjoying the company of others participating in the same activity. This would include riding in groups, pacelines, etc.

My opinion is, if your intent is to participate to such an extent as to enjoy the amenity mentioned above then yes, it would be totally uncool.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Kinda uncool. Depending on the event, these might not be the kind of riders you want to ride with. 

My local corporate cycling challenge is set up so everyone finishes at the same time. I went from a really nice paceline to boxed in, slow speed, and suddenly there were kids everywhere. Not my thing.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

I did it once, won't do it again. Started suffering 40 miles in, eventually decided to take a short cut, still ended up with 70 miles, about 25-30 too many. If I had paid, I'd have happily taken a ride in a sag wagon. Instead I caused more overuse issue with my knee. Went because a friend didn't want to ride alone, and he'd registered. Now if my local loop happens to overlap with a ride, I'm gonna do my normal ride. But none of my usual rides are close to exactly the same as any of the organized centuries in the area.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

SauronHimself said:


> un·eth·i·cal [uhn-eth-i-kuhl] Show IPA
> adjective
> 1.
> lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct.
> ...


Ignoring the fact that likely the event is paying for cop/EMT time on the weekend, how about you apply one of many simple ethical tests: What would it be like if everybody did it?

In the case of an organized bike ride, if everybody poached then the organizers would not raise any money (often the goal - many bike clubs use the "profits" from their big rides to finance all kinds of useful projects) or even cover their costs. A lot of volunteer effort and expenditure goes into putting together a big event and if everyone behaved like you condone, the event would be a flop.

Apply the same logic to littering - what's one gum wrapper in the vast expanse of the world? What if everybody did it?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

spade2you said:


> and suddenly there were kids everywhere.


I'm very fond of children


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## pinkrobe (Nov 26, 2008)

I was heading out for a nice 80km jaunt and came across a couple of guys on blinged-out Cervelo TT bikes. I didn't think about it too hard and rolled past them with a smile and a wave. As I rode, I kept catching up to other riders. I didn't pass many on the flats, but I would go by them en masse on even the smallest rises. Everyone was on TT or regular road bikes with aero bars. I was passing one guy on a hill, and he had a full aero helmet and a disc rear wheel, and was pushing the big ring at about 60rpm. I asked him, "Are all you guys on a group ride together?". He looked at me like I had two heads, so I rode away, puzzled. Reaching the top of the next hill, I could see a commotion up ahead, and there were some cars parked and people milling about on both sides of the road. Things started to click.
Slow people on expensive bikes.
TT bikes.
Aero bars.
Nobody drafting.
Bad gear selection.

I received applause as I reached the top of the hill - apparently I was in the top 10! I was offered a banana at the turnaround for the Chinook Winds _Triathlon_, but declined, explaining that I was not part of the race...


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## siclmn (Feb 7, 2004)

In my first 10 years of cycling I crashed every ride I could. I was cheap and didn't want to pay the 5 or 10 dollars that rides would cost back then. Now a days many rides seem to cost 50 to 100 dollars. That is ridiculous. For a bike ride?????


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

DaveG said:


> It’s certainly not illegal but it strikes me as inappropriate. I would not do it but others probably see it differently. Its not like you just happened upon the route; you went there for the purpose of taking advantage of the route and markings


Agree, I have stumbled upon a couple of rides but never intentionally.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

hubcyclist said:


> I wish, as far as charity rides go, there would be lower commitments required. I'm trying for my first, and it's $300. Some folks have extensive personal networks and can leverage those into fundraising. I'm personally in a position with only a few close friends and work colleagues, so it's tough to try and meet that threshold. As others have said, I'm sure it costs a lot to both support the event and a charity, but I think I'd try to do more if there were lower fundraising requirements.


Put forth an effort, if it is a good cause, you will top that in a heartbeat.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I've done the local ms ride and met the fundraising goal. It's good to start early and be on top of it.


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## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

Fireform said:


> If I'm not eating their goodies or drinking their drinks or using their porta johns it's none of their damn business where I ride.


So is it ok then to sneak into a football/basketball game or concert as long as you don't eat their food or use the bathrooms?


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## caad9er (Oct 25, 2011)

As with most things in life the correct answer is it depends.

Probably not cool to plan to "join" an official ride because you want to do the ride but not pay. Why not just do the ride some other time. If you really want the experience of the ride, the riders, etc. they pay and join (or be a volunteer).

On the other hand, if you ride certain roads a lot and find yourself in the middle of some event it should be fine to do your ride and not worry about what's going on. However, having found myself in this situation it wasn't really any fun. I didn't really want to be riding on crowded roads. Of course, I felt fast for once passing all the slow people at the back.

I'm thinking of doing (officially) the Copper Triangle this summer and looking at their site I notice they make a point of saying police have the authority to remove riders who are not registered riders (those without armbands, bike numbers, etc.). Personally, I'm not sure how that would work. The roads are not closed as far as I can tell so I have a hard time seeing how it can be illegal to be riding along at the same time or legal to remove someone not breaking any law. Unless someone is creating a nuisance I think it would be hard to actually do this.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Every year the Great Northwest Lemming Migration (also known as the STP) passes through on some of my favorite local roads. I try to schedule my rides on that day of the year for a little later in the day so that I only have to deal with the backmarkers but I can tell you that I wish the organizers would pay to have crews come along and clean up all the power bar and gel wrappers that get tossed along the route. One of our local MUTs always looks at its worst right after that crowd goes through...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

siclmn said:


> In my first 10 years of cycling I crashed every ride I could. I was cheap and didn't want to pay the 5 or 10 dollars that rides would cost back then. Now a days many rides seem to cost 50 to 100 dollars. That is ridiculous. For a bike ride?????


Sorry to burst your bubbles, but $50 can only buy you a "metric century" (62 miles) at the most these days. Most of the popular century rides around here in Socal are $100 - $160. And if you factor in the cost of driving there, hotel, food, well now a 100-mile bike ride now turns into a $300 deficit easily.

And some of the routes are so so lame. Sometimes the organizers will have you do loops, or go thru some really stupid road, just so they can eat up 100 miles (so they can call it a century).

I have jumped on few centuries, but I only jumped on sections that I usually train on, and it's usually a climbing section. Nothing motivates the legs to climb faster when there are a whole line sitting ducks awaiting to be picken! I never join them in the flat parts, because it's the flats parts that these guys wanna play club racing.

I have stopped doing these grand fondos because when I did them in the past, all the anemeties I've really used is for 1 water refill. I don't use the food as I carry 3 sandwiches lasting me 100 miles easily. I don't use the portapotties either as there's always a crowd at sag stations; instead, use the bush out in the middle of nowhere. I don't chat much with other riders on the ride, don't like to befriend them. In all centuries, I ride with buddies (if they don't register, I don't go).

Now there are a few centuries or double that I have to register because I have to use their sags. Reason is these centuries are in desolate locations, with absolutely no gas stations, no mom-n-pop shops, go get water. One such century in Cali is the Mammoth one.

Other then this, I say, if it's on open public roads, then it's fair game for all. It's that simple. 

Don't want people to poach your ride? Then do it on private roads, or have the city close the roads for you. Otherwise, shut up and share the roads!


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> Sorry to burst your bubbles, but $50 can only buy you a "metric century" (62 miles) at the most these days. Most of the popular century rides around here in Socal are $100 - $160.


With cycling becoming more and more popular with the wealthiest segment of the population, I see a booming business opportunity here: $160/head * 100 = 16K.

Hiring a catering company to provide food at various points is at most $3K.

I'll spend five days working on promotion and organization: $3K for my labors.

With that low overhead, I'll still make a small profit if only 40 people sign up at $160/head.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

majbuzz said:


> Last year I rode an organized century and one guy apparently jumped in with some friends without being registered. He stopped at a rest stop I was at and was just hanging around with his friends. He didn't get a drink, banana or anything but got busted out by one of the volunteers. I overheard the conversation and it went kind of like this, "you can ride away in a different direction or we can give you a ride back to the start, but you're not continuing". He opted for the free ride back to the start. Once he was loaded in the van and drove off, everyone hanging out started clapping. Kinda funny honestly.


What a stupid decision by the organizer. First of all they probably had no legal right to kick that unregistered rider off open public road. They were just bluffing, plain and simple. 

Secondly, since that rider was unregistered, then that means the event insurance did not cover that rider in the event of an accident. So... had anything happened to that rider during the possibly illegal transport back to the start, that guy could turn around and sue a lot of people.

Stupid organizers weren't thinking right. Stupid organizers who were more interested in showing who's the boss than about the consequence.

What ride is this? I want to make sure I don't ever stumble upon such an event with dumb organizers.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

myhui said:


> With cycling becoming more and more popular with the wealthiest segment of the population, I see a booming business opportunity here: $160/head * 100 = 16K.
> 
> Hiring a catering company to provide food at various points is at most $3K.
> 
> ...


Wow I can't believe you hit the nail head on!

In fact, that's what many of these popular centuries have beccome, a money making business. They would have entertainment and a party afterward, lots of time with rock bands, music. Restaurant food catered is expected, with beer sometimes. Forget them peanut butter jelly sandwiches for recovery; the crowds would scoff at such notion. 

And each year, these entertainment promises to be bigger and better. The promotions seem to get bigger every year. Yet, the route is the same. Socal is filled with rich hippity hip cyclists, all too happy to pay $100 - $160 to join the party.

The big rides have become more of an entertainment than a charity ride. Everything done on open public road, of course. 

Shut up and cry me a river.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> Shut up and cry me a river.


 And then the rich guy watches TdF on the telly one fine evening and chortles to his buddies: Sure, I can do that!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

myhui said:


> With cycling becoming more and more popular with the wealthiest segment of the population, I see a booming business opportunity here: $160/head * 100 = 16K.
> 
> Hiring a catering company to provide food at various points is at most $3K.
> 
> ...


Budget for el tour is around 1.8 mill. It was in the red in 2013 apparently. 
El Tour looks to city and county to fill financial gap
Now the guy still makes a living organizing it (plus a few other events that are smaller).


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

A bunch of us sort of crashed a ride last weekend. 42 of us planned a 300k route with 6 check points. Near the middle we went to 20 miles along a levy around a big lake and it turned out there was a big ride that day, DJ, big finish line, photographers etc for a ride that had everything from 14 miles to a full 112 miles around the lake. 

We just rode through to our check point and turned around to head back home to finish our 197 miles. As we neared the exit to the levy and crossed the finish line for the other ride, they cheered, took our photos and probably looked confused when we did not stop, just kept riding since we were only 1/2 way done.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> With cycling becoming more and more popular with the wealthiest segment of the population, I see a booming business opportunity here: $160/head * 100 = 16K.
> 
> Hiring a catering company to provide food at various points is at most $3K.
> 
> ...


Good luck trying to get the towns you go through to sign on for that.


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## majbuzz (Nov 30, 2012)

As we rode away we were all chatting about how it was a complete bluff and we would have told them to pound sand. I didn't have a big issue with it as he clearly wasn't taking any freebies or anything. Its a central Virginia wine ride and my group decided at the end of the ride that we wouldn't do it again. I think the organizers/volunteers handled it wrong for sure. Should have just said next time register and enjoy the ride please. I never found out if he started with his friends or just happened to link up with them while out on a ride. I was just shocked he agreed to get a ride back to the start area as we were only about 30 miles away.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

NJBiker72 said:


> Good luck trying to get the towns you go through to sign on for that.


Why is there any need to get the town government's permission?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

myhui said:


> Why is there any need to get the town government's permission?


Many towns/cities have ordinances for events, parades, etc and require permits. 
For my cycling club's fundraising ride they have to route around some towns because they're just a PITA to deal with.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

tlg said:


> Many towns/cities have ordinances for events, parades, etc and require permits.
> For my cycling club's fundraising ride they have to route around some towns because they're just a PITA to deal with.


This!! Also, let's face it some towns do not like cyclists. Let alone huge groups of them going through. This is made worse by poor behavior on some of these rides.

FWIW, I did an unorganized, organized century last year with about 100 people. Other than the food stops (a very overwhelmed Panera and a tiny deli) it was one of the best organized rides I have done. Good company, a good cause and good weather helped.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

tlg said:


> Many towns/cities have ordinances for events, parades, etc and require permits.


Sure, that's to be expected, but you don't have to make it so visible. If you just sit down on the sidewalk on a camping chair and hand out food or keep track of the finishing order, with no other banners or advertisements visible, then I'm sure you don't need a permit.


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## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

Several organized rides come through my vicinity on roads I frequently ride on (e.g. GranFondoNJ, Revolutionary Ramble, Covered Bridges). If I can find out the route they will be on, I will sometimes ride the route in reverse. I don't use their amenities, or otherwise interfere with those participating in the event, other than to wave at all the riders I pass. Inevitably someone will yell out to me that I'm going the wrong way.


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## seacoaster (May 9, 2010)

Requiring permits is also driven by safety concerns. Having 1,500 riders (or runners) going through a town of 5,000 (mine) puts a strain on public safety (aka police dept.).


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> Sorry to burst your bubbles, but $50 can only buy you a "metric century" (62 miles) at the most these days. Most of the popular century rides around here in Socal are $100 - $160. And if you factor in the cost of driving there, hotel, food, well now a 100-mile bike ride now turns into a $300 deficit easily.


Maybe that is a SoCal thing but other than Fondos (which I agree are overpriced) the organized centuries I ride in NJ and PA are typically $25-$35. I got that kind of coin, so I don't pirate rides


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

I think a lot of you are underestimating the cost and planing that go into these events. There is advertising, permits, area rental, insurance, SAG, food, drinks, ice, porta-potties, EMT and police to pay for before a ride makes it's first nickle.

Then route planing and dealing with different Counties, Cities and Towns. Wrangling volunteers. Finding a weekend where you aren't competing with another ride. In the Winter in Florida there are probably two or three of these things going on each week so you need to somehow make yourself stand out. Weaseling goodies from sponsors. Graphics and printing for t-shirts, jerseys and water bottles.

There is a little more involved than setting up an awning in a parking lot, charging some people some money and tooting an air horn.

I've been a road marshal on a couple of these things and can tell you that nobody really cares about who has a number or a wristband. But remember that sometimes when you give a mouse an event t-shirt, he becomes a rat. Drunk on the power of wearing a safety patrol vest, or maybe just tired of answering the same questions over and over, people can be a little stinky pants.
Q: Where do I turn?
A: If your wristband is blue, then you follow the blue arrows. You'll turn right in about a mile where the blue arrow points right.
Q: If I eat this banana will I cramp?
A: I don't know. Do you usually cramp when you eat a banana?
X 100

If you are able to justify to yourself, crashing a charity event, then good luck and ride safe. 

Now if you weasel in on one of these high dollar, for profit fondos. Good for you. If you can finish it, get past the spaghetti nazi, and have a bowl of overcooked pasta just a table away from an ex doping pro, you are a true pirate.




(The term spaghetti nazi is just a reference to a popular television character, the soup nazi who denied people soup by screaming "No soup for you" and in no way supports or endorses the nazi party,or those old time nazi guys, they were just mean. So if you have taken any offense, I sincerely apologize, but maybe you should think about lightening up just a little).


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## seacoaster (May 9, 2010)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> I think a lot of you are underestimating the cost and planing that go into these events



Here’s a few numbers…..

Pan Mass Challenge – 5,500 riders raised $39 million for the Dana Farber Cancer Institute in 2013. 100% of the money raised went directly Dana Farber, as there were 3,100 volunteers supporting this ride.

Granite State Seacoast Century – Two part-time volunteers spent 9 months handling the planning, permitting, etc. An additional 80+ volunteers were there during the event weekend to support 1,200 riders. The money raised goes to support cycling advocacy, as the sponsoring club is a non-profit organization.

I think the volunteers would appreciate if you would pony up the registration fees.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> I think a lot of you are underestimating the cost and planing that go into these events. There is advertising, permits, area rental, insurance, SAG, food, drinks, ice, porta-potties, EMT and police to pay for before a ride makes it's first nickle.
> 
> .[/SIZE]


Doesn't matter. It's either an open public road or it isn't. If it's closed to anyone but ride participants, okay. But if it's open to cars, pedestrians, whatever.....it's open to other cyclists.

Anyway, regardless of the ethics it strike me as a real cheese ball thing to do. If you want to do the route do it some other time. If you want the socialization go to a bar of something.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> Now if you weasel in on one of these high dollar, for profit fondos. Good for you. If you can finish it, get past the spaghetti nazi, and have a bowl of overcooked pasta just a table away from an ex doping pro, you are a true pirate.


A friend of mine did this one better. He pirated the fondo, then showed up at the expo at the finish with his four year old boy pedaling around in the crowd on his tiny bike. The organizers though the boy was so cute they gave them both tickets to the air-conditioned VIP tent with the real food and free beer, and he wound up schmoozing with Jan Ullrich. Never paid a dime, while I ate my $120 plate of crappy pasta.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Oh great, now doperz are involved.....


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> un·eth·i·cal [uhn-eth-i-kuhl] Show IPA
> adjective
> 1.
> lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct.
> ...


Bandit is enjoying the route that was developed and marked for the ride, sometimes at considerable cost. RAGBRAI may not care because the ride itself is a loss-leader so that the vendors can sell all those bikers food and services. Most other rides care, though. So, yes definition #1 applies and it is unethical.


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## bigjohnla (Mar 29, 2010)

Just my two cents. If it doesn't bother you, then go ahead. Who am I to tell someone else what to do? It would definitely bother me, so I wouldn't ride. There is a reason that rules are made and limits are set. I may not understand them and may totally disagree with them. But, I generally try to follow them


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

hubcyclist said:


> I wish, as far as charity rides go, there would be lower commitments required. I'm trying for my first, and it's $300. Some folks have extensive personal networks and can leverage those into fundraising. I'm personally in a position with only a few close friends and work colleagues, so it's tough to try and meet that threshold. As others have said, I'm sure it costs a lot to both support the event and a charity, but I think I'd try to do more if there were lower fundraising requirements.


People have it on both sides. I have seen a few events where you can raise $300 and reg for $50. Or, reg for $150 and no donation threshold is required. I like this approach as it allows people to ride by just throwing money at the cause.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Wow, this thread is pretty polarizing.

Personally, I think if the OP had to ask, he already knows the answer.

No, it's probably not illegal to ride bandito, but that doesn't make it right, either.


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## wjclint (Apr 17, 2012)

There is a general theme running through this thread that is incorrect. Just because it is a public road does not mean it is open to anyone that wants to use it. Pretty much every city, county, state, has some sort of permitting process where events can be held that close or restrict access to "public" roads. The reason they are "public" is because the "public," not you as an individual, controls the road. It is perfectly permissible for a traffic control plan for a permitted activity to restrict access to a road to, for example, registered participants. So if the premise to your argument is "it's a public road so I can ride on it if I want" then you need to rework your argument. The only options are not "open" versus "closed;" there is also restricted.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

seacoaster said:


> I think the volunteers would appreciate if you would pony up the registration fees.


As one of those volunteers, I was told that the roads are free for everyone to use. I wasn't there to chase down anyone sneaking in on a ride. I was there to make sure people were safe and had a good time. Personally, I don't have a problem with someone poaching a charity ride. If they are able to work it out to themselves that it's alright, that's fine with me. It's just not anything I would do, but it can be done pretty easily and is done quite often. I've had people on rides tell me that they could only come up with enough money to register two people and ask if it would be a problem if four of them rode. My answer was that it wasn't a problem with me.

I rode a couple of charity rides and have paid my way. I have also paid for other riders. I've worked on planing committees for two different rides, done route scouting, training rides and been a ride marshal several times. All as a volunteer. I'm not going to tell anyone they can't ride on a public road, but some volunteers will. They aren't supposed to, nor do they have the right to, but people are people and sometimes they do weird things. 

Truthfully I can't stand these giant rides. Hundreds on a mass start, half of them with no clue, dodging moreons for the first 50 miles isn't my idea of a fun day cycling. But a lot of people enjoy these things. So that's why I volunteer but not ride.

Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, fondos are fair game.







Fireform said:


> A friend of mine did this one better. He pirated the fondo, then showed up at the expo at the finish with his four year old boy pedaling around in the crowd on his tiny bike. The organizers though the boy was so cute they gave them both tickets to the air-conditioned VIP tent with the real food and free beer, and he wound up schmoozing with Jan Ullrich. Never paid a dime, while I ate my $120 plate of crappy pasta.



You are.......I mean your friend is a true pirate


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

wjclint said:


> There is a general theme running through this thread that is incorrect. Just because it is a public road does not mean it is open to anyone that wants to use it. Pretty much every city, county, state, has some sort of permitting process where events can be held that close or restrict access to "public" roads. The reason they are "public" is because the "public," not you as an individual, controls the road. It is perfectly permissible for a traffic control plan for a permitted activity to restrict access to a road to, for example, registered participants. So if the premise to your argument is "it's a public road so I can ride on it if I want" then you need to rework your argument. The only options are not "open" versus "closed;" there is also restricted.


Almost all of these fondoes are events being held on public roads that are to remained opened to the public. We are not talking about public roads being closed off for the event. At least in Cali, it is virtually almost impossible for any cycling event (save for maybe the Tour of California) to seek permission to close any segment of any road, much less 100 miles worth of roads. The reason is simple. Business would not allow it.

A lot of the popular fondos here use the very same roads that are also popular training routes due to either their challenging elevation or sceneries or both. Roads that also attract many cyclists on any given weekend.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

Blackbeerthepirate said:


> Truthfully I can't stand these giant rides. Hundreds on a mass start, half of them with no clue, dodging moreons for the first 50 miles isn't my idea of a fun day cycling.


agreed, I stopped doing most mass rides years ago...they're usually just giant CF sessions. 

ridiculous registration fees, jacked-up parking, 20-rider pacelines blowing past old ladies with wicker baskets on their handlebars, countless chirpy twerps calling out every conceivable road hazard...pebble! twig! leaf! shadow!...nasty pasta feeds, ugly, low-quality event t-shirts plastered with tacky advertising...

sorry, but the thrill is gone for doing these. there's no temptation to do them either as a paid entrant or as a bandit...


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Oxtox said:


> agreed, I stopped doing most mass rides years ago...they're usually just giant CF sessions.
> 
> ridiculous registration fees, jacked-up parking, 20-rider pacelines blowing past old ladies with wicker baskets on their handlebars, countless chirpy twerps calling out every conceivable road hazard...pebble! twig! leaf! shadow!...nasty pasta feeds, ugly, low-quality event t-shirts plastered with tacky advertising...
> 
> sorry, but the thrill is gone for doing these. there's no temptation to do them either as a paid entrant or as a bandit...


When I first moved out here to the left coast I thought that I would do a few of them in order to meet other riders of a similar ability. Here in Washington the vast majority of the rides are not mass start rides so I was unable to meet anyone of similar ability - those riders remaining approximately the same distance in front of or behind me. Thus I saw no reason to join in on any more of these, having pretty much the same attitude towards them that is expressed in the quoted post.


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> What a stupid decision by the organizer. First of all they probably had no legal right to kick that unregistered rider off open public road.


While I agree that the roads are publicly-owned, that rest stop was probably secured at a cost -- either a park reservation or renting a front yard. The bandit did not contribute to paying for it. The bandit should not have been offered a ride back to the start, he should have been warned that personnel at the subsequent stops had been alerted about him, and to call the police if he entered their reserved areas again or if his friends were caught taking him food.


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

It's about intent. If you wake up and think, "I don't want to pay for an overpriced ride, but I do want to ride with all the people. And rules/policies don't apply to me" Your a dick

If you happen to roll into a planned ride and tag along for a few miles without partaking of the amenities; no harm done.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

El Scorcho said:


> It's about intent. If you wake up and think, "I don't want to pay for an overpriced ride, but I do want to ride with all the people. And rules/policies don't apply to me" Your a dick
> 
> If you happen to roll into a planned ride and tag along for a few miles without partaking of the amenities; no harm done.


Well said.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I think the big issue is liability. The entrance fee usually covers insurance for the participants. This is a good thing as it usually becomes a CF. The last thing they need are any more riders in the mix. I've seen some events that draw in as many and 2000 unregistered riders. This puts a huge strain on the safety arrangements that are adequate for the registered participants, but not for a lot more than that. 

In years past I have seen two deaths in on of these races. One death was a man who had failed to meet the registration deadline and joined the ride anyway. He died of hypothermia. In the other case, a non-registerd rider grew tired and swerved into a registered rider and the registered rider fell off a cliff. In another race there were dangerous bottlenecks on some of the passes and security detail did not have enough personnel to manage the traffic flow resulting in hundreds of riders walking their bikes to the finish when way after the official end of the race when traffic was allowed onto the road. Race insurance gave a massive payout to the registered rider, but the unregistered rider's family was left high and dry. This could be true with injuries as well. 

While it is not illegal, I don't recommend unregistered riders to participate to simply reduce unnecessary traffic and remove any more hazards from the road than there really need be.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BlazingPedals said:


> While I agree that the roads are publicly-owned, that rest stop was probably secured at a cost -- either a park reservation or renting a front yard. The bandit did not contribute to paying for it. The bandit should not have been offered a ride back to the start, he should have been warned that personnel at the subsequent stops had been alerted about him, and to call the police if he entered their reserved areas again or if his friends were caught taking him food.


Call the police? are you serious my man? While it's never cool to take food/water from a sag for which you did not pay,.. but don't you think calling the police in to settle the matter is a bit too much? By calling the police, now you will have taken away a resource that could otherwise been used to patrol the road for safety. 

Remember, the bandits of today may be the one registered tomorrow, or maybe be the ones helping you on the road on your next ride. The cycling community is a small one.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Call the police? are you serious my man? While it's never cool to take food/water from a sag for which you did not pay,.. but don't you think calling the police in to settle the matter is a bit too much? By calling the police, now you will have taken away a resource that could otherwise been used to patrol the road for safety.
> 
> Remember, the bandits of today may be the one registered tomorrow, or maybe be the ones helping you on the road on your next ride. The cycling community is a small one.


Suppose you walk into a restaurant get your food and leave without paying. Should they not call the police.


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

Speaking of all this, is "No Pay Ray" still around? He would go from one ride to another, all summer long. He'd set up camp after dark, use the showers when nobody else was looking, sneak onto closed courses, sneak in back doors to get to the cafeterias, ... He even got caught trying to re-use someone else's bus pass. You name it, he's probably done it, all without paying a cent.


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## shoemakerpom2010 (Apr 25, 2011)

Dajianshan said:


> I think the big issue is liability. The entrance fee usually covers insurance for the participants. This is a good thing as it usually becomes a CF. The last thing they need are any more riders in the mix. I've seen some events that draw in as many and 2000 unregistered riders. This puts a huge strain on the safety arrangements that are adequate for the registered participants, but not for a lot more than that.
> 
> In years past I have seen two deaths in on of these races. One death was a man who had failed to meet the registration deadline and joined the ride anyway. He died of hypothermia. In the other case, a non-registerd rider grew tired and swerved into a registered rider and the registered rider fell off a cliff. In another race there were dangerous bottlenecks on some of the passes and security detail did not have enough personnel to manage the traffic flow resulting in hundreds of riders walking their bikes to the finish when way after the official end of the race when traffic was allowed onto the road. Race insurance gave a massive payout to the registered rider, but the unregistered rider's family was left high and dry. This could be true with injuries as well.
> 
> While it is not illegal, I don't recommend unregistered riders to participate to simply reduce unnecessary traffic and remove any more hazards from the road than there really need be.


I think you hit it right on the head. It seems to me also that if more and more people go against the registering and just join in and get hurt year after year then these organized rides either move location, disappear or both. Who wants that?!


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Rides with entry cut-offs exist because the organizers have, from experience, learned just how many riders the route can safely handle. That being said, there is always a certain percentage of registered riders who don't show up for the event, so a small number of pirates doesn't screw things up. But it's not fair or ethical for people to use support resources that others are paying for.

I do one of these rides every year. My club has run it for over 40 years. We limit it to 2,000 entries. But in addition to the century, we have several shorter routes, from a metric down to 26 miles, that cover parts of the same route, so people are spread all over the place, plus it's a show, check in, and go rather than a mass start. And, all of the roads are those that other riders use every weekend, so we're running into other riders all the way along.. I don't have a real problem if a few non-registered riders crash it. My only comment would be, if you do have a mechanical that can't be repaired, call someone outside for help or a ride home, and don't use the sag wagons.

We do not provide for medical assistance, though. It's only a $25 entry fee and that goes to support costs, and the T-shirts. If you crash or otherwise get hurt, it's a local FD ambulance that will respond, and either you or your health insurance will be paying for it, not the ride organizers, regardless of whether you're registered or not.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

DaveW88 said:


> Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


You mean, ride simultaneously with the "official" participants and among them? Yes, it would be totally uncool. Again, this is not a law, it is just a matter of basic ethics, something you acquire as you grow up through parenting, social interactions with good people and reading proper books. If you don't feel like you have intuitive understanding of such things, then there's probably no way to convince you. Things like that cannot be rationalized. All these considerations of "liability", "park reservations" etc. are completely secondary, even if true.

In other words, it is one of those "If you have to ask..." things. In this particular case, if you have to ask, you probably won't "get" the answer.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

A question for the right to poachers...

If I poach a ride with no regard for the work that the organizers put into creating the event, nor any regard for those who spent their hard earned money to support the event, am I also allowed to treat any or all of the stop signs or lights that I happen along while riding the route of the event with the same disregard?

I realize that I have to wear a helmet, so I can blend in with those who are supporting the event, seeing as the organizers of these events specify helmets...

so I won't ask that question.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

NJBiker72 said:


> Suppose you walk into a restaurant get your food and leave without paying. Should they not call the police.


Restaurant food, like most sag food, is low cost Costco stuff. Calling the police after letting people eat your poison? One has gotta be dumb to eat it in the first place, and dumber to pay to eat it. That is all.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Restaurant food, like most sag food, is low cost Costco stuff. Calling the police after letting people eat your poison? One has gotta be dumb to eat it in the first place, and dumber to pay to eat it. That is all.


You go to the wrong restaurants but that is besides the point. 

If you own a bike shop and someone just comes in and rides away on one of your bikes, are you good with that? 

It's stealing.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

NJBiker72 said:


> You go to the wrong restaurants but that is besides the point.
> 
> If you own a bike shop and someone just comes in and rides away on one of your bikes, are you good with that?
> 
> It's stealing.


But if you don't eat the garbage and just passes by the restaurant and peek thru the windows, and maybe sniff at the garbage aroma, then it's not stealing right?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Driving past a restaurant is not stealing from it.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> But if you don't eat the garbage and just passes by the restaurant and peek thru the windows, and maybe sniff at the garbage aroma, then it's not stealing right?


Agreed. If you do not use the services, then you should not have to pay for it.

But in an organized ride, those services include food, traffic control, and route planning.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

C'mon folks, logic being displayed here is somewhat discomforting..... so your in the park having a birthday party for your kid ... it's ok for bunch of us to pull up eat some of your food, grab drinks out of your cooler... public park....

Get real, poacher, pirate, bandit all words used to discribe.... what? outstanding individuals????

You don't jump onto any credible bike club ride without signing a waiver or being invited.....

Pay to play or go home and stay!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

NJBiker72 said:


> Agreed. If you do not use the services, then you should not have to pay for it.
> 
> But in an organized ride, those services include food, traffic control, and route planning.


So we've established that if a person does not use the sag amenities, then he's not poaching.

As for planned route. Excuse me. Unless these routes are fenced off, and closed to the general public, such as cars, pedestrians, and other non-registered participant, then the "planned route" doesn't exist. And furthermore, a lot of the major fondos (at least in Cali) use the SAME POPULAR routes that are known to many cyclists on any given weekend. These routes are not like uncharted territories eh.

Relax, and let your fellow cyclists join in the cameraderie. He's not stealing your cookies and power bars and gatorade. Let him chat along. He may be your savior the next you're on the road on a non-registered ride. Better to make friends than enemies.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Upnorth said:


> C'mon folks, logic being displayed here is somewhat discomforting..... so your in the park having a birthday party for your kid ... it's ok for bunch of us to pull up eat some of your food, grab drinks out of your cooler... public park....
> 
> Get real, poacher, pirate, bandit all words used to discribe.... what? outstanding individuals????
> 
> ...


Calm down. Nobody is stealing your kid's greasy bday cake. It's a public park, so expect the public to be there. Don't like it? Do it on your private park. Then you can whine if the public stares at your kid's funny hat!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Calm down. Nobody is stealing your kid's greasy bday cake. It's a public park, so expect the public to be there. Don't like it? Do it on your private park. Then you can whine if the public stares at your kid's funny hat!


If RBR flips this much for pirating a group ride, no wonder they want to hire a hitman for Lance.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Upnorth said:


> C'mon folks, logic being displayed here is somewhat discomforting..... so your in the park having a birthday party for your kid ... it's ok for bunch of us to pull up eat some of your food, grab drinks out of your cooler... public park....
> 
> Get real, poacher, pirate, bandit all words used to discribe.... what? outstanding individuals????
> 
> ...


You've committed the false equivalence fallacy by attempting to make a park birthday party remotely analogous to a bike ride. If you were to eat the birthday party food without paying for it, you'd be stealing. However, in a group ride you're not stealing if you don't use the sag support and their goodies. The fact that there may be traffic control present is immaterial since both participants and non-participants are responsible for their own safety. The participants sign waivers anyway, so it's not like liability matters on either side. If you venture onto a public road as part of an event or not and injure yourself, that's on you the individual. If someone else caused your injury, how would it be any different than any other day where the exact same thing could happen? A cyclist getting hit by another cyclist or by a car at an event is not an anomaly compared to normal life. 

At last year's Tour de Cure I saw a good handful of unregistered riders along the route, yet neither myself nor anybody registered whom I encountered seemed to care one iota. At this event the roads were marked but not closed. It would've been impractical to close roads spanning several towns. The unregistered riders kept to themselves and didn't use the TDC's services. I was more concerned by the registered riders who, despite the numerous admonitions from the cops, kept riding more than two abreast and blowing stop signs or red lights. It seems to me that people who are safety oriented will ride safely and those who aren't safety oriented won't ride safely regardless of circumstances.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Upnorth said:


> C'mon folks, logic being displayed here is somewhat discomforting..... so your in the park having a birthday party for your kid ... it's ok for bunch of us to pull up eat some of your food, grab drinks out of your cooler... public park....
> 
> Get real, poacher, pirate, bandit all words used to discribe.... what? outstanding individuals????
> 
> ...


Nobody is defending any such thing. If you have your kid's birthday party in a public park, do you expect all of the other joggers, dog walkers and frisbee players to be denied entrance to the park? Give me a break.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

SauronHimself said:


> You've committed the false equivalence fallacy by attempting to make a park birthday party remotely analogous to a bike ride. If you were to eat the birthday party food without paying for it, you'd be stealing. However, in a group ride you're not stealing if you don't use the sag support and their goodies. The fact that there may be traffic control present is immaterial since both participants and non-participants are responsible for their own safety. The participants sign waivers anyway, so it's not like liability matters on either side. If you venture onto a public road as part of an event or not and injure yourself, that's on you the individual. If someone else caused your injury, how would it be any different than any other day where the exact same thing could happen? A cyclist getting hit by another cyclist or by a car at an event is not an anomaly compared to normal life.
> 
> At last year's Tour de Cure I saw a good handful of unregistered riders along the route, yet neither myself nor anybody registered whom I encountered seemed to care one iota. At this event the roads were marked but not closed. It would've been impractical to close roads spanning several towns. The unregistered riders kept to themselves and didn't use the TDC's services. I was more concerned by the registered riders who, despite the numerous admonitions from the cops, kept riding more than two abreast and blowing stop signs or red lights. It seems to me that people who are safety oriented will ride safely and those who aren't safety oriented won't ride safely regardless of circumstances.


Oh great, now we're arguing about arguing.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Not that I'm condoning poaching an organized ride, but you're comparison is not apples to apples. The OP is basically asking if it's ok to also play in the public park even though you're having a birthday party there. He's going to play with his kid on the playground, too, but he isn't going to eat any of your food or take over any of your party games.

Just clarifying, as it didn't sound like you understood the OP's question.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

People stating the roads are public so they can rationalize poaching is not ethical. The park/party theory is same public park - no issues with hundred of others using park - if you did not get invited to party I would hope you would think that you are not entitled to help yourself to cake because it is public park. But clearly with statements made in this post some would think perfecly ok to help themselves. I would consider that to be terribly rude and clearly advise you to pi$$ off it was my kids party.

I just cannot see logic of those thinking it is ok to jump on ride from start to finish without paying. If ride passes or crosses your route then I see no issue. But to blatenly head out that day to join an organized ride from start to finish without registering for it is unethical in my books. I am well aware that we cannot legislate ethics as some peoples ethics change like the weather.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Who exactly is arguing that it's okay to take sag supplies without paying? Anyone? Or are you just creating a fight out of thin air?


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Oh great, now we're arguing about arguing.


What are you, God's gift to climbing?


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

DaveW88 said:


> Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


As I've never done an organized ride like that, my opinion might be crap. If you left a defined interval between yourself and the 'official' riders (say 20 minute gap), and didn't use any of the services then I wouldn't gripe.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Fireform said:


> Who exactly is arguing that it's okay to take sag supplies without paying? Anyone? *Or are you just creating a fight out of thin air?*


hey if he can create money out of thin air, i'm all ears!


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

To me it would be more like you have a party in the park, set up a volleyball net for the kids and then other people in the park, not at your party, decide they can use your net too. 

I have to ask all the poaching advocates, why do you want to poach so bad? The fact that you want to use the route suggests to me that it has some intrinsic value even without the food stops


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

I haven't ridden an organized ride in a couple of decades and I typically avoid their routes on the days that they are in my area - but that isn't always possible. Most organized rides are using routes that are regularly ridden by local cyclists - the roads are known to be scenic and low traffic. Often their "route research" consists of asking riders in the local clubs what a good century route would be. So why is this now "their route" as opposed to a favorite cycling loop?


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

Fireform said:


> Nobody is defending any such thing. If you have your kid's birthday party in a public park, do you expect all of the other joggers, dog walkers and frisbee players to be denied entrance to the park? Give me a break.


Well, if I've paid money to reserve the pavilion, then I don't expect to have to share it with the ******* family celebrating National Beer Day. And if the kid's birthday party is big enough that I felt the need to rent a couple of port-a-loos, I don't expect to see the ******** there, either.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

brad, that not the argument. The OP started by asking if it was OK to plan on showing up for a ride with the intent of poaching it. That is different from just ending up on a route by coincidence


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

DaveG said:


> I have to ask all the poaching advocates, why do you want to poach so bad? The fact that you want to use the route suggests to me that it has some intrinsic value even without the food stops


We don't want to tag along that badly actually. I personally haven't done so in my cycling career, but the reason why I don't dissuade others from it is because it's not my business to tell you what you can and can't do with your bicycle. Unless there is a local ordinance declaring that select roads are closed off strictly to registered participants, I can't force someone not to ride.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

DaveG said:


> brad, that not the argument. The OP started by asking if it was OK to plan on showing up for a ride with the intent of poaching it. That is different from just ending up on a route by coincidence


But that was not your argument in the post to which I was responding: "The fact that you want to use the route suggests to me that it has some intrinsic value even without the food stops"

Again, I try to avoid those routes on the days of the organized rides (mainly to avoid testosterone laden squirrely riders) but I can see a situation where I might have decided to travel hours away to do a ride that I liked not knowing that most of it (or all of it) is an organized ride's route. Should I have to accept a less enjoyable, probably more dangerous route because some group is running their charity ride on the roads I was planning to ride? 

The "poachers" are not using the facilities (rest stops, porta potties, etc) provided by the organizers, so they should not be banned from the roads. I believe that it would be crass to line up at the start of an organized ride not having paid and ride along with the whole crowd - but it is not an illegal use of the roads. I won't do it because I prefer not to share the road with hundreds or thousands of other riders - my favorite riding group size is four, period. 

Again, your comment that the route has some intrinsic value without the food stops is valid - but that value was there long before the organizers chose the route. It is the reason they chose the route. Should those who have long used it be banished from the route?


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Brad, I actually think we are generally on the same page. Showing up with intent to poach the ride = sleazeball. Out for a weekend ride, happen on the ride, and end up riding some of the route = unavoidable. Being a poacher requires intent


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> hey if he can create money out of thin air, i'm all ears!


But that'll be like Digital EPO. It wouldn't be right.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Seems like a pretty simple thing to figure out.

If you want to go on the ride pay. Your being a jerk, if you don't even if you don't intend to use the facilities, if you plan of starting with the ride an, riding the route and ending with the ride, you should pay. 

Now if happen on the ride and your route and its happen to be the same then of course it would be silly for anyone to think you should go ride some place else, but to be clear you and the ride routes "happening" to be the same doesn't include you starting down the street from the ride at the same time as the ride because to you planned it that way.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

What y'all think about poaching deer? Ok if ya hungry?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

notice a change of tone in this thread.

The thread started out with a tone of:

"poachers are bad because they (presumably) steal food and candies at sag stops"

Answer: waita minute, not all poachers want your Costco candies. So it's not stealing

Then comes: "poachers, even without stealing food, is still sleezy because they intend to use the marked route:

Answer: waita minute, lots of these routes are on open public road, open to anyone, so why are poachers called poachers?

Then comes: "poachers are bad because they take advantage of the planned route, with good sceneries, etc.."

Answer: waita minute, these planned route is planned because they are often well-known favorites of avid cyclists. These are not "hidden gem". In fact, the organizers planned these route based on how popular they are with cyclists.

Then come: "poachers are bad becaues they intend to use the cameraderie of the registered riders, and without such registered riders, there would be no cameraderie to enjoy"

...see how the line of reasoning is getting more and more

selfish
self absorbing
self important
exclusive
clique-ish
snobbish

All this revolves around one central issue, money. If I don't have the money, then I should not be allowed and I'm not welcome to join the clique. But if I can somehow swing $100 or so, then hell... I'm all of the sudden become a saint, welcomed to the club, arms opened from those also with money to donate. It sure doesn't take much for people to start to delineate the have and the have-nots eh?

I'm not advocating stealing material good, but to me, to deny fellow cyclists a chance to enjoy a bit of the cameraderie with you even though he does not have the money to join your ride.. well it speaks more volume of your selfishness, your ability to segregate.. than it does to your reasoning of not to poach.

Of course, the minute an ahole driver buzzes one of the registered participants, i'm pretty sure he'll come in here posting his story, expecting every cyclist in here to side with him, poachers or not.

Share the effin' road. Open your mind up. Because perhaps one day you'll need help from one of the poachers on your non-registered ride. Perhaps one day one of the poachers will be one of those who contribute greatly to the cause of cycling. Life can change. Don't be so quick to use money as a delineation.

Personally, a lot of these rides are bucket-list rides for lots of folks. They take pride in bragging having done it. Only reason I can think of why they fight so hard to keep it being exclusive. Hmm maybe I'm wrong, but seems like it to me.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

Acl- it resolves around ethics not money, nothing to do with eating the food. It is the ethics of getting up a heading out with the intention of joining ride start to finish, even if you don't use any support. Organized events are for registered or the invited period.

if ride overlaps your daily ride route no big deal, no issue with that. It is the intent to poach that pi$$es folks off.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Upnorth said:


> What y'all think about poaching deer? Ok if ya hungry?


Answer my question. Who here is arguing that it's ok to take sag supplies without paying?

The Fondo organizers choose their routes because serious riders use them. Those riders are supposed to step aside because the Fondo wants to make a profit that day? *^&* that.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Upnorth said:


> Acl- it resolves around ethics not money, nothing to do with eating the food. It is the ethics of getting up a heading out with the intention of joining ride start to finish, even if you don't use any support. Organized events are for registered or the invited period.
> 
> if ride overlaps your daily ride route no big deal, no issue with that. It is the intent to poach that pi$$es folks off.


If it's not about money, then let's examine a hypothetical situation. Suppose some rich dude hosts an event ride where registration is free and all the amenities like food and sag support are also free. However, you have to register to be part of it, and the roads will not be closed off to the general public. If some people want to tag along unregistered and don't use any of the amenities, are they still "poaching"?


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## caad9er (Oct 25, 2011)

Upnorth said:


> Acl- it resolves around ethics not money, nothing to do with eating the food. It is the ethics of getting up a heading out with the intention of joining ride start to finish, even if you don't use any support. Organized events are for registered or the invited period.
> 
> if ride overlaps your daily ride route no big deal, no issue with that. It is the intent to poach that pi$$es folks off.


So it's unethical to ride your bike on the same road at the same time as other riders if those riders paid money to ride that day and you didn't?


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## climbroadieclimb (Feb 28, 2014)

It is about hurting the ride organizer and the right of legit participants of enjoying the event again in the future. I came a cross this when looking at one of the century ride sites:

*Ride-a-Longs Jeopardize Cinderella
*Our rider numbers are limited by the police departments and cities we ride through. Your rider number is their requirement and is monitored by them. _If you are not registered, please do not ride the Cinderella route. Don't be the one to cause the termination of this ride._ Thanks for your cooperation.


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## StarTrekBiker (Oct 16, 2013)

caad9er said:


> So it's unethical to ride your bike on the same road at the same time as other riders if those riders paid money to ride that day and you didn't?


I don't think that's what he's saying. He is saying it depends on your intent. And I would agree with that. For me, personally, I would feel guilty if I decided beforehand that I was going to ride the route from start to finish without registering, even if I didn't use any of the ride support amenities. Meaning, I would feel that it is somehow not right, and that I was being a douche. This is not something you can teach or convince someone of. Either the person will feel it's right, or not.

However, if I were riding my usual route, and it happens to overlap with an organized ride, I wouldn't feel guilty at all. From my point of view in this circumstance, I was just minding my own business.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Last year I pledged to not pay for any cookie ride so I didn't ride in any of them. The only ride I really would've like to do was the hincapie gran fondo but it's cost-prohibitive for me.
What did I do?
Sent out emails/posts a few weeks before and got a great group to ride the same route the week before the real gran fondo. Win-win.
I suggest you do the same, unless you happen to be out riding and catch a ride.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

Thank you! Amen! You got it Captain Kirk! Many don't but you got it. Guess some don't mind being labeled douche bag, pirate, poacher, some even think those are nice things to be called.

ALL ABOUT ETHICS


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

caad9er said:


> So it's unethical to ride your bike on the same road at the same time as other riders if those riders paid money to ride that day and you didn't?


Yes. The organizers created an event with intrinsically desirable features: riding in groups with like-minded individuals, friendly competition, and whatever else comes with group rides. This is part of what you pay for when you register and is in fact a large part of the reason people enter such events.

Litmus test: If you knew you would be the only participant, would you sign up? Likely not.

Not paying a registration fee yet participating in the event, even if you don't use any of the other services such as sag wagon, rest stops, etc., is stealing.

If an organized ride and a rider's route for the day coincidentally merge for a brief period, that's understandable. If the rider intentionally meets up with the group ride at any point along the way, that's poaching.

It's all about intent.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> So we've established that if a person does not use the sag amenities, then he's not poaching.
> 
> As for planned route. Excuse me. Unless these routes are fenced off, and closed to the general public, such as cars, pedestrians, and other non-registered participant, then the "planned route" doesn't exist. And furthermore, a lot of the major fondos (at least in Cali) use the SAME POPULAR routes that are known to many cyclists on any given weekend. These routes are not like uncharted territories eh.
> 
> Relax, and let your fellow cyclists join in the cameraderie. He's not stealing your cookies and power bars and gatorade. Let him chat along. He may be your savior the next you're on the road on a non-registered ride. Better to make friends than enemies.


If you are so creative go create your own. Don't overcrowd the roads by taking what others pay for. 

And what about the traffic control?

Why would a poacher feel the need to ride along with people he is stealing from?


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Fireform said:


> Answer my question. Who here is arguing that it's ok to take sag supplies without paying?
> 
> The Fondo organizers choose their routes because serious riders use them. Those riders are supposed to step aside because the Fondo wants to make a profit that day? *^&* that.


I doubt you do the Fondo route everyday and leave at the same time as the Fondo goes everyday. 

No one is saying not to use the roads that day but going out with the intent of poaching and doing the event without paying is stealing.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Last year I pledged to not pay for any cookie ride so I didn't ride in any of them. The only ride I really would've like to do was the hincapie gran fondo but it's cost-prohibitive for me.
> What did I do?
> Sent out emails/posts a few weeks before and got a great group to ride the same route the week before the real gran fondo. Win-win.
> I suggest you do the same, unless you happen to be out riding and catch a ride.


Well said.


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

Lelandjt said:


> This. Don't fvck things up for everyone else. Pay attention and register right when it opens or find another place to ride that day.



Oh, so when they do the Harlem Valley Rail Trail Ride and I'm out on my usual routes I need to stay off of those roads?


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> Oh, so when they do the Harlem Valley Rail Trail Ride and I'm out on my usual routes I need to stay off of those roads?


Who said that? 

Ride your ride. But don't ride someone else's.


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Haha...so is the Marathon Crash race in LA poaching the LA Marathon course that uses the resources of the city of LA...that also uses LAPD officers at the start of the race?

or am I way off base?  

20 bucks to race and 5 to ride the course. Not sure if any of that money is going to the city of Los Angeles.

If I can wake up...I'll pay the 5 bucks to ride the course.


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## caad9er (Oct 25, 2011)

Peter P. said:


> Yes. The organizers created an event with intrinsically desirable features: riding in groups with like-minded individuals, friendly competition, and whatever else comes with group rides. This is part of what you pay for when you register and is in fact a large part of the reason people enter such events.


Now you are saying it's unethical to enjoy the ride and hanging out with everyone. So one should pay to ride in groups, chat with the other participants, etc. and not paying is unethical. What if one rides solo and doesn't have any fun. Still unethical? See, kind of ridiculous. 



> Litmus test: If you knew you would be the only participant, would you sign up? Likely not.


Actually, this is how I ride 99% of the time so if I knew a road would be empty I'd actually pay for that. I don't really want to ride with a bunch of other people most of the time.



> It's all about intent.


Agreed. And for the most part I was on the side of don't go out and ride an organized ride without joining. However, the argument is getting a little ridiculous and repetitive.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Again since I don't do organized rides I gotta ask this. In many, many, many, many threads over and again it has been stressed that you're a punk and a jerk if you jump in on a group ride/club ride/pace line/etc without asking or clearing it with the ride leaders or at least the other riders. If it's wrong to latch onto somebody's wheel without their permission, how would it be alright to join an organized ride without the same curtsies (not using the amenities being stipulated)?

Not trying to troll, but this has been bothering me all day today (it's been a slow, lazy day off).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

junior1210 said:


> Again since I don't do organized rides I gotta ask this. In many, many, many, many threads over and again it has been stressed that you're a punk and a jerk if you jump in on a group ride/club ride/pace line/etc without asking or clearing it with the ride leaders or at least the other riders. If it's wrong to latch onto somebody's wheel without their permission, how would it be alright to join an organized ride without the same curtsies (not using the amenities being stipulated)?
> 
> Not trying to troll, but this has been bothering me all day today (it's been a slow, lazy day off).


This is a damn good question, and I for one am waiting for a good answer.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

caad9er said:


> _Now you are saying it's unethical to enjoy the ride and hanging out with everyone. So one should pay to ride in groups, chat with the other participants, etc. and not paying is unethical. What if one rides solo and doesn't have any fun. Still unethical? See, kind of ridiculous. _


No, it's not ridiculous, it's that you're twisting the meaning to suit your argument.

The organizers know one of the significant draws of their ride is the collective activity; the pacelines, group interactions, friendly competition, the "experience" of the ride. The organizers created this atmosphere deliberately and it's part of the appeal of these events. Your registration fee not only covers the real costs of hosting the event but the intangibles as well. You don't have the right to enjoy the benefits of an organized event when you didn't pay to participate in it.

Group rides that don't require a registration fee or registration itself would be the exception i.e., the weekly shop ride and other such casually or randomly held events. If the organizers advertise some limitation you can't or don't meet such as entry fees, pledges, registration deadlines, then you don't have the right to participate.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

NJBiker72 said:


> I doubt you do the Fondo route everyday and leave at the same time as the Fondo goes everyday.
> 
> No one is saying not to use the roads that day but going out with the intent of poaching and doing the event without paying is stealing.


A) I doubt you have the faintest idea where I do or don't ride, and 

B) this guy was railing on and on about how wrong it is to take the support services without paying for them, and NO ONE has said otherwise. 

Again, if I'm not eating their snacks or drinking their drinks or using their porta johns, it's none of their damned business where I ride.


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## StarTrekBiker (Oct 16, 2013)

Fireform said:


> Again, if I'm not eating their snacks or drinking their drinks or using their porta johns, it's none of their damned business where I ride.


In some cases, it IS their business. Case in point: RAMROD. This is a 150 mile Ride Around Mt Rainier in One Day. Features 10,000 ft of climbing. It is held once a year, and limited to 800 riders, and the riders are selected by lottery. Part of it (the first 30 miles and the last 30 miles) is on public roads. The other part is in Mt Rainier National Park. The park is open to the public on the day of the ride. But bikes will be restricted to those in the event.

From their FAQ:
_Why can't I show up the morning of the ride to see if there are any open spots? 
RAMROD is held in difficult and remote areas with limited emergency access. We are required to distribute rider lists and emergency contact information with the Park rangers and with our HAM support team. These lists have to be finalized two weeks before the event for us to be able to get our work done on time. _*WE CANNOT ADD NEW RIDERS THE DAY OF THE EVENT AND YOU WILL BE TURNED AWAY IF YOU SHOW UP SEEKING A TICKET.

*_Why do you only allow 800 riders? 
Operating an organized ride in a National Park requires a Special Use Permit. A ride like RAMROD interferes with vehicle traffic on the narrow mountain roads and impacts access by other Park visitors. RAMROD also imposes demands on the Park for enhanced Ranger patrols and emergency services. 

After balancing the competing interests, the Park service allows us to present one event a year, limited to 800 riders on a midweek summer day. The Park has consistently applied these restrictions for a number of years and we do not anticipate any changes. _


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

I try to pay and support the event if the cost is reasonable or if I plan to use the stops. Otherwise I'm just out for a ride.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

SauronHimself said:


> What are you, God's gift to climbing?


Not at the moment. 20 minute power is only 4.1w/kg.


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Not at the moment. 20 minute power is only 4.1w/kg.


At the moment? With those numbers (I have the same number) we shall never be god's gift to climbing (or any kind of riding).


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

serious said:


> At the moment? With those numbers (I have the same number) we shall never be god's gift to climbing (or any kind of riding).


True. Haven't started intervals yet, but my usual 30min is about 4.1w/kg.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

junior1210 said:


> Again since I don't do organized rides I gotta ask this. In many, many, many, many threads over and again it has been stressed that you're a punk and a jerk if you jump in on a group ride/club ride/pace line/etc without asking or clearing it with the ride leaders or at least the other riders. If it's wrong to latch onto somebody's wheel without their permission, how would it be alright to join an organized ride without the same curtsies (not using the amenities being stipulated)?
> 
> Not trying to troll, but this has been bothering me all day today (it's been a slow, lazy day off).


It's been a day now, and still ain't nobody said why it's OK to poach an organized ride but it ain't OK to poach a wheel in a paceline.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Oops, maybe I stepped on somebody's toes. Shame on me.:cryin::frown2:


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

junior1210 said:


> Oops, maybe I stepped on somebody's toes. Shame on me.:cryin::frown2:


If you stepped on anyones toes they sure aren't coming forward to defend themselves. You've asked the best question of this thread yet...


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Well, it is pretty tough to curtsey on a bike and doing so is very likely to break up a pace line so that is extremely frowned upon. 



Okay, now to be real. A safe paceline is made up of riders who are experienced with riding together and can act in unison without communicating. Having a stranger to jump in to the paceline greatly increases the risk so it is considered a breach of courtesy to do so without invitation. 

Organized rides are designed for a bunch of strangers to ride together (though I would never ride in a paceline with a bunch of strangers) so an uninvited rider is less disrupting and not a serious safety risk, though it is considered to be a breach of courtesy for him to avail himself of the food and facilities provided by the organizers.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

Since my work schedule is such that I can't join in any of the organized rides around me, I'll admit to my ignorance about how they work. I just learned something new (i.e., how pacelines work). Does the same hold true for group rides and club rides? That is to say, is there a nuance to these types of rides that would prohibit someone from jumping in (poaching), that would be less objectionable for these other organized rides?


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

junior1210 said:


> Since my work schedule is such that I can't join in any of the organized rides around me, I'll admit to my ignorance about how they work. I just learned something new (i.e., how pacelines work). Does the same hold true for group rides and club rides? That is to say, is there a nuance to these types of rides that would prohibit someone from jumping in (poaching), that would be less objectionable for these other organized rides?


The local club here has a policy of allowing a non-member to join in their rides no more than twice. After that he has to purchase a membership or is excluded from the ride, IIRC. 

I haven't ridden with them since I first moved here in 1989... they berated me for showing up without a helmet (it was the 80's after all) and then proceeded to run every stop light and stop sign along the way. After ten miles I told them that they were nuts and turned around to go home.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Group rides are usually open to all riders of similar abilities, for example 22-24 MPH avg speed, without an entry fee or support. 
Other rides will usually be advertised as "no-drop" rides or social rides, but again, no entry fee.
If you don't pay and use any services, I think it's just wrong to poach a ride.

There have been plenty of rides that I've paid for and never even grabbed a crappy PB&J, does that mean I should get a partial refund? No, I paid to play.
Maybe we should start the RBR A La Carte Gran Fondo, you only pay for services received.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

bradkay said:


> Well, it is pretty tough to curtsey on a bike and doing so is very likely to break up a pace line so that is extremely frowned upon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a good and true answer.

But, there are still plenty of lone riders that are going to frown upon another cyclist riding riding in what is perceived as there little piece of the world. And, I'm sure that _some_ of these cyclists have no problem with poaching.

There is a double standard here. Either we're all brothers/sisters and it's share and share alike, or we are individuals who need to respect what others have, and not just barge in uninvited, whether there is a monetary cost involved or not.


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

My answer is it is still wrong. 
Even if you do not use the rest stops there are a long list of things that just raw count of riders matter. 

The police control of the intersection. That is impossible not to use. 
Sag vehicles will still stop if you are in trouble. The ems people the same. 
There are permits pull and those are based on rider count. And that is riders on the road. 

Do not forget they also marked the entire route. 

It is one thing if your normal ride cross or shares a small part with the ride it is another to ride it.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

So I "poached" part of an MS ride yesterday.

A buddy and I jumped into the lead peloton, which was almost entirely a single club from a nearby town. They had about 20 guys, and were headed by a rotating pace group of anywhere from 6 to 15 or so with the team captain calling out the changes, and they were doing a steady 26-27 or so. We checked in with the boss, who remembered us from last year, and proceeded to rotate with them for the next 50 miles. When they hit a rest stop, my buddy and I sat out on the guardrail at the edge of the road and ate our snacks.

They were so outraged at our behavior that when we finally dropped out and headed back into the wind they pelted us with a chorus of "thanks!" and "good work!" and "see you next year!". 

We felt horrible. Not.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Fireform said:


> and they were doing a steady 26-27 or so. We checked in with the boss, who remembered us from last year, and proceeded to rotate with them for the next 50 miles.


You should have done it one better. Your buddy and you should have rode 100 feet in front of their lead rider for that whole 50 miles, acting as hares in comparison to their tortoise.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveW88 said:


> Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


I've done exactly that. Didn't make any of the stops or anything, just rode start to finish and then home. Never even got off the bike.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

velodog said:


> It's been a day now, and still ain't nobody said why it's OK to poach an organized ride but it ain't OK to poach a wheel in a paceline.


Pacelines are generally quick-moving, tightly-quartered dynamic lines that require a degree of skill and fitness to navigate safely. An unskilled rider can quickly be out of their element, make a mistake and take someone down. 

Massive group rides with tons of people and groups scattered up and down all over the road are not the same. An unskilled rider can easily make a mistake and take someone down, but there's a lot more room for error for everyone involved. 

Toodling along at 15 mph with a whole bunch of other people scattered all over the place is not the same as operating 6 inches off the wheels and elbows of other riders at 25+ mph.


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## Red90 (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't think Velodog was necessarily arguing the differences between the paceline and a sanctioned group event, but used the analogy as a argument to to those that say "it's a public road and anyone has a right to ride on it". Same as pacelines where groups of riders are using public roads, there is no law against someone else riding on the same road, even if he is draft right behind someone.

It's common cycling etiquette that you don't join a private group ride or paceline unless you ask for permission from the group. The same riders that argue it's ok to pirate or poach a event would also argue that "it's a damn public road and you can't stop me from riding behind your wheel"

Bottom line is, if you intentionally poach or pirate an event because you don't agree with the fees or whatever it is, it's wrong. When people pay to join an event, they are paying for an "event", which encompasses the planning, organization, services, food, promotion, people and experience of riding in a mass group. To go in and just say I won't eat their food, you are still benefiting from having the "event" experience. If you feel that its expensive, or the routes are lame, or it's a money maker scheme or whatever the issue... you don't have to go.

If you missed out on the cutoff to join, then you should just skip and and register earlier next year.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Red90 said:


> I don't think Velodog was necessarily arguing the differences between the paceline and a sanctioned group event, but used the analogy as a argument to to those that say "it's a public road and anyone has a right to ride on it". Same as pacelines where groups of riders are using public roads, there is no law against someone else riding on the same road, even if he is draft right behind someone.
> 
> It's common cycling etiquette that you don't join a private group ride or paceline unless you ask for permission from the group. The same riders that argue it's ok to pirate or poach a event would also argue that "it's a damn public road and you can't stop me from riding behind your wheel"
> 
> ...


The point is, the analogy was a bad one. Pacelines have an element of danger that exceeds that of a large group ride. They are not in anyway comparable. 

A ride with so many people does not really meet the definition of a "private group ride". Personally, I've done group rides with 20+ people and I wouldn't have a clue if a random person jumped in or not. At some point there are just too many people to keep track of unless you're leading a no-drop ride or something and have to ensure everyone gets back. A fondo type ride would be even more extreme and no one is going to know all of the people participating. 

Everyone's personal feelings on the matter are just that and there is not really a salient analogy to be made regarding this particular subject. You either care of you don't. I hazard a guess that no one cares enough to do anything about it, so really this entire thread is just talk and bravado with little substance.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Stay out of my paceline, you can cause a crash and injure _me_.

Wear a helmet, you can crash and bust open your head, causing _my_ insurance rates to go up.

Stop at all stop signs, you're giving all cyclists, which _I_ am one, a bad name.


Go ahead and poach the organized ride, it doesn't affect _me_.


I've seen the 1st three arguments made. The 4th is just an extrapolation that I've made.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

velodog said:


> Stay out of my paceline, you can cause a crash and injure _me_.
> 
> Wear a helmet, you can crash and bust open your head, causing _my_ insurance rates to go up.
> 
> ...


But in the first three you're recounting how it affects you, and in the last how it doesn't. So how does that extrapolation work? Wouldn't it be "don't jump in because it could affect me by ... ?"


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## Weatherby (Mar 3, 2014)

pinkrobe said:


> I was heading out for a nice 80km jaunt and came across a couple of guys on blinged-out Cervelo TT bikes. I didn't think about it too hard and rolled past them with a smile and a wave. As I rode, I kept catching up to other riders. I didn't pass many on the flats, but I would go by them en masse on even the smallest rises. Everyone was on TT or regular road bikes with aero bars. I was passing one guy on a hill, and he had a full aero helmet and a disc rear wheel, and was pushing the big ring at about 60rpm. I asked him, "Are all you guys on a group ride together?". He looked at me like I had two heads, so I rode away, puzzled. Reaching the top of the next hill, I could see a commotion up ahead, and there were some cars parked and people milling about on both sides of the road. Things started to click.
> Slow people on expensive bikes.
> TT bikes.
> Aero bars.
> ...


That is a funny story.

I had a similar experience riding the 45 miles home from a Crit, I had strange feeling. Then, I noticed two guys on my wheel. Strange painted numbers on their arms and weird cycling clothing. This was probably in the early 80's and I had no idea what Triathoning was. They sucked my wheel for probably 10 miles.

If an event organizer has a cutoff of say a few hundred riders as often happens where I live and they are using my roads, roads that my local taxes paid for and roads that are policed by my township PD, I'll ride amongst the riders as I please. If the ride is for charity, I will gladly offer a donation. These small, rural roads are not exactly public roads. They are local roads maintained by local taxpayers.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Upnorth said:


> Thank you! Amen! You got it Captain Kirk! Many don't but you got it. Guess some don't mind being labeled douche bag, pirate, poacher, some even think those are nice things to be called.
> 
> ALL ABOUT ETHICS


Or rather, people are indifferent to anonymous posters on silly cycling sites hurling childish names about.

I mean, seriously, calling names is what elementary school students do because they can't form a cogent argument. 

You can present your argument in a logical fashion and then defend it if challenged, or you can just stick your fingers in your ears and call names. Won't get very far with either, but the latter is a bit cringe-worthy coming from an adult. 

But I guess it's admissible if you make sure to throw in a one-liner about ethics at the end of every post so we know you're really toeing the line of that moral high road you're peering down from.


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

Weatherby said:


> These small, rural roads are not exactly public roads. They are local roads maintained by local taxpayers.


Uh, that falls right under the definition of public roads.


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

The thought of ever "poaching" a ride never even crossed my mind, but after reading 7 pages of this, I now feel an almost uncontrollable urge to do it.


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## Weatherby (Mar 3, 2014)

rebel1916 said:


> Uh, that falls right under the definition of public roads.


Exactly, owned and maintained by the local, public taxpayer.

What does an out of state rider do to pay for the local police force or roads department? Nothing. It comes from my pocket. Thus, I will ride the roads on my bike.

I live in a town that is flooded with cyclists riding two and three abreast all the time. Thinking about it, we need to require a parade permit for these events.


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## junior1210 (May 2, 2013)

runabike said:


> The point is, the analogy was a bad one. Pacelines have an element of danger that exceeds that of a large group ride. They are not in anyway comparable.
> 
> A ride with so many people does not really meet the definition of a "private group ride". Personally, I've done group rides with 20+ people and I wouldn't have a clue if a random person jumped in or not. At some point there are just too many people to keep track of unless you're leading a no-drop ride or something and have to ensure everyone gets back. A fondo type ride would be even more extreme and no one is going to know all of the people participating.
> 
> Everyone's personal feelings on the matter are just that and there is not really a salient analogy to be made regarding this particular subject. You either care of you don't. I hazard a guess that no one cares enough to do anything about it, so really this entire thread is just talk and bravado with little substance.


In all fairness, the analogy was mine, but I grouped 'pacelines' in with club rides and group rides. My thought being that they were all types of organized rides that expect a certain level of exclusivity. I have since learned why pacelines in particular demand such exclusivity.

I will still maintain my former opinion, in that, were someone were to maintain a suitable interval between themselves and the tail of the organized ride (say 15-20 minutes) and didn't partake of the amenities that it would be fine to follow along. Riding the route but showing a definitive, unmistakable separation from the group would be fine IMO.


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## Weatherby (Mar 3, 2014)

junior1210 said:


> In all fairness, the analogy was mine, but I grouped 'pacelines' in with club rides and group rides. My thought being that they were all types of organized rides that expect a certain level of exclusivity. I have since learned why pacelines in particular demand such exclusivity.
> 
> I will still maintain my former opinion, in that, were someone were to maintain a suitable interval between themselves and the tail of the organized ride (say 15-20 minutes) and didn't partake of the amenities that it would be fine to follow along. Riding the route but showing a definitive, unmistakable separation from the group would be fine IMO.


Wow. 20 minutes. That is 5-8 miles back. Are serious. Most of these riders are slow, they clog the roads, they are spread out for dozens of mile, and it is perfectly reasonable to "On your Left" them. We aren't talking USCF races here. Century rides and charity ride type events with a wide range of cycling ability. These rides do not have exclusive use of the roads in general (Five Boros and the like excepted)

Jumping into a paceline when you are not part of an event/club ride is totally uncool unless one of the riders says, "Jump on" but staying 15-20 minutes behind is absolutely ridiculous. Once you get someone 50-100 feet behind you, they are off your wheel and there is no safety issue. I could not imagine having the stones to jump into someone's 30 man echelon. Passing a Fred on my road? No problem.

In 1986 I watched the World Championships in Colorado, the Italian Team while on a training ride waved me in to let me sit in since they saw I was spent riding a loaded touring bike as they twiddled along with ease. 

What is it with some cyclists who feel entitled to exclusivity on the road and to take the whole road riding three abreast, this is not a country club and the roads are not closed on these Fondo type poser events that charge $50-100 a head for a couple squirts of gel and an energy bar.


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## timeless (Jun 2, 2007)

junior1210 said:


> In all fairness, the analogy was mine, but I grouped 'pacelines' in with club rides and group rides. My thought being that they were all types of organized rides that expect a certain level of exclusivity. I have since learned why pacelines in particular demand such exclusivity.
> 
> I will still maintain my former opinion, in that, were someone were to maintain a suitable interval between themselves and the tail of the organized ride (say 15-20 minutes) and didn't partake of the amenities that it would be fine to follow along. Riding the route but showing a definitive, unmistakable separation from the group would be fine IMO.


Sorry but that does not exactly work.

Chances are you are more serious cyclist so this example is a good one I will give.
2 weeks ago I did a paid ride. I was doing the 56ish mile route. On the way back to the starting point I was passing people on the 22-28ish mile route. I Merge back in with short route people at around mile 45ish. So at that point I had over 20 extra miles on them. Now that one I was moving and at the very front of the long route.
now on the one I did last week it was 63 miles STILL pass people on the way back in doing 20 mile route. BTW not pushing the pace. On the way back in it was all the riders.
You can not get that separated from a paid ride. 

It is one thing if your route over laps partly with theirs. It is another if 70-80%+ of it is the route. Chances are at that point you are looking it up and take advantage of everything.
As I listed earlier there is quite a few things that have nothing to do with the rest stops that are base only on rider count on the route.
1. Sag support (sag will still stop for you as they can not tell at a distance)
2. Medical support. They will stop and render aid no matter want.
3. Police support. They are going to wave you threw. Block traffic and so. 
Those 3 items are based just on rider count.
Another is it is a large number of rider chance are it is safer. That and many of these rides are fund raisers.

People who think they are riding the "route" but not taking part in the rest stops are missing the boat.


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## transamnut (Feb 24, 2014)

Okay, I got sick and tired after reading ~40 replies. It quickly became a bit** session. JUST RIDE SOMEWHERE ELSE THAT DAY!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure most, if not all of us, have more than 1 route we ride. PICK THE OTHER ONE!!!


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## Weatherby (Mar 3, 2014)

Some of this depends upon where you live. 

In some areas, there are popular cycling roads with few other attractive alternatives. 

Police, Sag and Medical support are red herrings. Where I live, two of these are performed by volunteers while the police are not paid by the event.

Riding along the same roads as an organized ride is not a problem. Standing on the start line and rolling out with the mass is a different matter-that is not Kosher

I find myself out on my rural township roads riding and unbeknownst to me there are organized rides going on. Rides taking place on my training routes. I'll be damned if I am changing my route because of a silly perceived etiquette breach.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

transamnut said:


> Okay, I got sick and tired after reading ~40 replies. It quickly became a bit** session. JUST RIDE SOMEWHERE ELSE THAT DAY!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure most, if not all of us, have more than 1 route we ride. PICK THE OTHER ONE!!!


I genuinely don't get this type of post. Are you truly serious? Do you actually expect people to listen to the above and do what you say? 

Or is this just more internet bravado? 

Either way, it seems really silly to bark directions at anonymous people on the internet as if what you say matters in any way whatsoever.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

junior1210 said:


> In all fairness, the analogy was mine, but I grouped 'pacelines' in with club rides and group rides. My thought being that they were all types of organized rides that expect a certain level of exclusivity. I have since learned why pacelines in particular demand such exclusivity.
> 
> I will still maintain my former opinion, in that, were someone were to maintain a suitable interval between themselves and the tail of the organized ride (say 15-20 minutes) and didn't partake of the amenities that it would be fine to follow along. Riding the route but showing a definitive, unmistakable separation from the group would be fine IMO.


I see. No worries.

I don't get the point of your last paragraph, though. Why should you ride at a certain distance behind someone? Just do your ride. If you're faster, then pass, if not, they'll soon be out of sight. 

There's no reason to try and create all of these loopholes to justify being out on the road. There's way too much being made out of this. 

Like I said before, no one here actually cares enough to do anything if someone wants to line up and do the ride but not pay. Much less if someone is out on the road and happens upon one of these rides. 

Just enjoy riding your bike like everyone else (hopefully) is doing on the day. No need for mental gymnastics to justify enjoying yourself!


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## transamnut (Feb 24, 2014)

I don't EXPECT anybody to do anything; I'm simply offering my opinion. If you don't like or agree with my opinion, don't read it!

Get a life.................


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

transamnut said:


> I don't EXPECT anybody to do anything; I'm simply offering my opinion. If you don't like or agree with my opinion, don't read it!
> 
> Get a life.................


How would I know whether or not I don't like or agree with it if I don't read it?


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

I had to laugh last year when I was on a Saturday ride that coincided with a portion of the STP route. The reason for my laughter was that I came around a bend in the trail and saw a photographer starting to take photos of me. He does this every year (perhaps more than one photographer does this) - buys the start list from the organizers, takes photos of the riders, notes their registration number that is on their bike and jersey and mails them proofs of the photos in hopes that they will buy the pics from him. I waved him off, yelling out that I wasn't part of the ride - I was just enjoying a Saturday ride on one of my normal routes. 

I still think that the Cascade Bike Club (organizers of the STP) should send folks out to clean up all the energy bar and gel wrappers that get tossed along the route. Our trail never looks so trashy as it does in the week after they pass through...


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

Weatherby said:


> Exactly, owned and maintained by the local, public taxpayer.
> 
> What does an out of state rider do to pay for the local police force or roads department? Nothing. It comes from my pocket. Thus, I will ride the roads on my bike.
> 
> I live in a town that is flooded with cyclists riding two and three abreast all the time. Thinking about it, we need to require a parade permit for these events.


That's not how roads work. And almost all roads are built and maintained with some percentage of state and federal funds.


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## transamnut (Feb 24, 2014)

runabike said:


> How would I know whether or not I don't like or agree with it if I don't read it?


I must say, you got me there............:thumbsup:


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## Weatherby (Mar 3, 2014)

rebel1916 said:


> That's not how roads work. And almost all roads are built and maintained with some percentage of state and federal funds.


Depends on where you live. Sorry, your statement is not always correct.

Maintenance of dirt roads in rural areas are funded like schools. Wealthy towns recieve little state and federal funds whereas the ghettos of places like Newark (NJ) are larded over with state and federal funds not to mention $100mm donations from the likes of Zuckerberg.


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## rebel1916 (Aug 4, 2007)

Weatherby said:


> Depends on where you live. Sorry, your statement is not always correct.
> 
> Maintenance of dirt roads in rural areas are funded like schools. Wealthy towns recieve little state and federal funds whereas the ghettos of places like Newark (NJ) are larded over with state and federal funds not to mention $100mm donations from the likes of Zuckerberg.


Ah, now I see. You live in a world of imaginary taxpayer resentment. Things truly are different there.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

transamnut said:


> I don't EXPECT anybody to do anything; I'm simply offering my opinion. If you don't like or agree with my opinion, don't read it!
> 
> Get a life.................


Little ragey, there bucko. 

Everyone gets mad when I say that there are some angry people here, but this just proves me right. 

This is where someone else gets mad and calls me a troll.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

I can't believe that this discussion is still going on.

If you feel to ride the exact same route on the same day as an organized event, start a couple of hours after the official start and have fun. If you feel the need to ride with the group, then you obviously see some benefit to the organized event so pay for that benefit just as the others have. If you participate in the event without paying you are stealing - it's up to you to decide if that is okay.

If you happen to be on a ride and happen to run into an organized event, cheer the others along and modify your route to stay out of the way.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

The one way I modify my route is that I never ride against the stream when those rides coincide with part of my ride. Once on the Coeur D'Alene trail my friend and I were riding in the opposite direction of an MS150 group and were nearly run off the trail a few times by riders who refused to slide back into single file to let us by. That is one reason I don't participate in those rides - too many idiots who don't know how to ride in groups.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

this has less to do with "ethics" or "morals" than it does with INTEGRITY, personal integrity....as in lacking personal integrity. 

its really very simple, if you benefit from a product or service, then pay for that product or service. (am i talking to my 14 kid here?)

however, if one feels that the state (me/johnQpublic) should pay for your right to recreation, exercise and receive for free the benefits from the hard work of others in providing an event and space for you to enjoy this leisure activity, good.....if thats the case, im coming by your place tomorrow to ride OUR bike around YOUR neighborhood. please have the tires pumped and the chain cleaned....oh....in order for me to have the fullest cycling experience whilst riding OUR bike, i require my retul fitting setup as well, ill send you my specs, please have OUR bike setup and ready to ride by 745am. see you in the morning. thanks for your participation and understanding. (am i talking to my 14 kid here?)

enjoy.....

Reservoir Dogs Opening Scene Tipping [Full HD] - YouTube


what the City of LA has to say about Poachers......SLAP DOWN!!!!

Popular pre-L.A. Marathon bike ride canceled after city permit snag - latimes.com

Wolfpack Hustled: City Pulls Support for Marathon Crash, Threatens Legal Action | Streetsblog Los Angeles

City Squashes Cyclists' Plans to Crash the L.A. Marathon - Around Town - Santa Monica, CA Patch


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

> If you don't use the amenities the event provides, why should you be excluded? You're not stealing anything from them.


ill swim in the chummy waters.....

do you stop at every light that is red along the course? do you roll through every stop sign that is along the course? do you exceed the posted speed limits that are along the course? if you are injured will you turn away EMT services at the event? do you benefit from the traffic control efforts by local enforcement, volunteers and/or paid employees of the event? if you do, then pay up punk. if not, consider it, in your own words as "stealing"......which brings us back to my previous post regarding personal integrity. get some.

am i talking to a 14yr old child here? if we are having this conversation with an adult, this is rather sad. create some integrity, be accountable for your actions and behavior instead of seeing what you can get away with, or justifying your behavior and actions which have no integrity. in lay-mans terms "grow a pair"


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Do you guys actually stop at every stop sign and street light you come across anyway? Exceed the posted speed limit? Who are you guys kidding? You're not that fast. 

And as for refusing medical services. Would you refuse medical or emergency services if you happened to crash in front of a first responder on a solo ride? 

These examples are really a stretch. Like I said before, there's no need for such mental gymnastics to try and justify your opinion.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

runabike said:


> Like I said before, there's no need for such mental gymnastics to try and justify your opinion.


You're new here. Mental gymnastics and various Greek debate tactics are 96% of all RBR poasts.


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## Donn12 (Apr 10, 2012)

Im guessing that some of you might not ever pay for napkins or ketchup....


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

...good morning teen poachers! enough of all this gymnastics and greekyness!!! lets all go crash an event and run some signs!!.....ie....time to ride! 

here is what the city of LA thinks of punk poachers.....SLAP DOWN!!!!

Popular pre-L.A. Marathon bike ride canceled after city permit snag - latimes.com


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## JStrube (Dec 19, 2013)

Rokh Hard said:


> this has less to do with "ethics" or "morals" than it does with INTEGRITY, personal integrity....as in lacking personal integrity.
> 
> its really very simple, if you benefit from a product or service, then pay for that product or service. (am i talking to my 14 kid here?)
> 
> ...


As the father of 3 teenagers right now... Very clear, very responsible, Sent you REP!


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## mtor (Mar 1, 2007)

DaveW88 said:


> Let's say there is a century ride that limits the number of riders and you miss the cutoff. Would it be totally uncool to show up and ride the route but not use any of the sag stops or other amenities?


I dont see why it will be a issue


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

JStrube said:


> As the father of 3 teenagers right now... Very clear, very responsible, Sent you REP!


dear god Jstrube......i feel for yah man....i hope you have a "ive got teens in my life" support group. :mad2:


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## WaynefromOrlando (Mar 3, 2010)

myhui said:


> Why is there any need to get the town government's permission?


The police would notice if a large group or a string of multiple groups were to ride through most small towns. They would stop the ride and do their best to get the organizer for failing to arrange the ride and pay for the right to ride through their town. 

I have been on organized rides that DID pay the town and make prior arrangements where the police still sat out and made sure we stopped at every stop sign and followed all the laws precisely.


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## transamnut (Feb 24, 2014)

spade2you said:


> Little ragey, there bucko.
> 
> Everyone gets mad when I say that there are some angry people here, but this just proves me right.
> 
> This is where someone else gets mad and calls me a troll.


No, not "ragey". It just came out of the blue. I stated my opinion (that's what forums are for), and runabike comes at me like "who the hell are you to state your opinion!!" I have no idea who he is, nor do I care! Along with the other 10 or so pages of opinions, I stated mine, I would ride somewhere else that day. Jeesh, I registered for this forum a few days ago, and this was what I read for a reply; it's those kind of posters that make you not want to participate in the discussions.........

That's what predicated the "get a life" comment.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

transamnut said:


> No, not "ragey". It just came out of the blue. I stated my opinion (that's what forums are for), and runabike comes at me like "who the hell are you to state your opinion!!" I have no idea who he is, nor do I care! Along with the other 10 or so pages of opinions, I stated mine, I would ride somewhere else that day. Jeesh, I registered for this forum a few days ago, and this was what I read for a reply; it's those kind of posters that make you not want to participate in the discussions.........
> 
> That's what predicated the "get a life" comment.


I don't think you quite grasp the difference between "stating your opinion" and "dictating to others that said opinion is fact and ought to be followed". 

There are plenty of the former in this thread. And there are quite a few of the latter. Yours just stands out more than most. A bit hostile and aggressive if nothing else.

No need to whinge about it. Apparently you don't understand how your post comes across. Maybe now you do. Maybe you could care less. Regardless, that's why I made that response and obviously I wasn't the only one who read your post that way.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Rokh Hard said:


> this has less to do with "ethics" or "morals" than it does with INTEGRITY, personal integrity....as in lacking personal integrity.
> 
> its really very simple, if you benefit from a product or service, then pay for that product or service. (am i talking to my 14 kid here?)
> 
> ...





Rokh Hard said:


> ill swim in the chummy waters.....
> 
> do you stop at every light that is red along the course? do you roll through every stop sign that is along the course? do you exceed the posted speed limits that are along the course? if you are injured will you turn away EMT services at the event? do you benefit from the traffic control efforts by local enforcement, volunteers and/or paid employees of the event? if you do, then pay up punk. if not, consider it, in your own words as "stealing"......which brings us back to my previous post regarding personal integrity. get some.
> 
> am i talking to a 14yr old child here? if we are having this conversation with an adult, this is rather sad. create some integrity, be accountable for your actions and behavior instead of seeing what you can get away with, or justifying your behavior and actions which have no integrity. in lay-mans terms "grow a pair"


in·teg·ri·ty [in-teg-ri-tee] Show IPA
noun
1.
adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2.
the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3.
a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

Well, we can skip definitions 2 and 3 since they don't quite apply here. When looking at the first definition the discussion kind of _is_ about ethics since integrity, by definition, includes adherence to ethical principles. Clearly, though, there is much disagreement on whether or not this topic is ethical.

The irony presented here is that we're being lectured on integrity by one who overtly expressed intellectual dishonesty in cherry picking some very blatant red herrings from the internet. Somehow this vain attempt with no logical justification for why these things are remotely related proves a point. It's also ironic when one lectures on what integrity is and yet insinuates that anyone who disagrees with him on this particular subject is a 14-year-old.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

den bakker said:


> except when it comes to registration fees of course.



haha!!


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

no more howlin at the moon from wolfpack -

Pre-L.A. Marathon bike race canceled amid city crackdown - latimes.com


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## DaveW88 (Sep 3, 2006)

I'm the OP and all I can say is Wow, I never thought this thread would go on so long. Just for the record, I'm not gonna do it (ride unregistered)


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

i find it laughable that this is a topic for discussion (like someone thinks they have the right to poach events, based on a weak public roads non-argument? HA!).....wait....considering the self entitlement that children today have, its not so laughable. in fact its pathetic.


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## JStrube (Dec 19, 2013)

Bourbon. Great support group. All are boys at least. I've told each & every one, I do not want to be a grandparent for at least 15 years. The playboys are in the garage, go knock up your sock drawer.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

JStrube said:


> Bourbon. Great support group. All are boys at least. I've told each & every one, I do not want to be a grandparent for at least 15 years. The playboys are in the garage, go knock up your sock drawer.



haha!!! good one jstrube!

for me the bike is the new bourbon. i "drink" from it daily. 


as father to a 14yr old, i have an understanding for this thread. i too was once a unemployed, sockhumpin, event poachin teen-manchild.....well....i still partake in the occasional sockhumpin, but ive grown out of the poacher stage....which is why i have less tolerance for the nonsense today.


"stop making excuses for yourself and your behavior honey. get a job, become accountable, pay your way....darlin"


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Rokh Hard said:


> "stop making excuses for yourself and your behavior honey. get a job, become accountable, pay your way....darlin"


Those are the right words to say to this gorgeous girl you're about to marry too.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Rokh Hard said:


> i find it laughable that this is a topic for discussion (like someone thinks they have the right to poach events, based on a weak public roads non-argument? HA!).....wait....considering the self entitlement that children today have, its not so laughable. in fact its pathetic.


Hey, I know, why don't you try to be a bit more disparaging? I'm sure you'll win over lots of people with such startling wit and indefatigable logic in your corner.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Rokh Hard said:


> as father to a 14yr old, i have an understanding for this thread. i too was once a unemployed, sockhumpin, event poachin teen-manchild.....well....i still partake in the occasional sockhumpin, but ive grown out of the poacher stage....which is why i have less tolerance for the nonsense today.
> 
> 
> "stop making excuses for yourself and your behavior honey. get a job, become accountable, pay your way....darlin"


This constitutes "understanding"?

And what's your definition of "irony"?


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> The irony presented here is that we're being lectured on integrity by one who overtly expressed intellectual dishonesty in cherry picking some very blatant red herrings from the internet. Somehow this vain attempt with no logical justification for why these things are remotely related proves a point. It's also ironic when one lectures on what integrity is and yet insinuates that anyone who disagrees with him on this particular subject is a 14-year-old.


What's the internet equivalent of a "slow-clap"?

Whatever it is, I'd like to employ it now. 

Well put.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

myhui said:


> Those are the right words to say to this gorgeous girl you're about to marry too.


or the one you just divorced.


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## Weatherby (Mar 3, 2014)

I would never poach, I have my stamps, permit, and license duly mounted on the rear of my Filson. Somehow use of public roads seems different to me unless cyclists want to pay substantial permit fees for the exlusive use of the road during what amounts to a parade. Talk about a sense of entitlement.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

9 pages of BS so people can justify why being a d-bag is justifiable.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

ewitz said:


> 9 pages of BS so people can justify why being a d-bag is justifiable.


And then there are posts like yours that simply celebrate it.


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## Rokh Hard (Nov 25, 2013)

ewitz said:


> 9 pages of BS so people can justify why being a d-bag is justifiable.



summed up nicely. thanks.


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