# What bikes brands are made in China?



## seany916 (Feb 8, 2006)

based on another thread,

What bike brands are made in China?


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## Carbonman (Jan 6, 2006)

If you include Taiwan - most of them.


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## ddonner (Apr 19, 2007)

*For what it's worth....*

I read an article about 7 or 8 years ago that stated that unless a bike cost over the 3 or 4 thousand dollar (IIRC) mark, the frame was made in either China or Tiawan. Many in the same factory. The article went on to explain that there was a limited amount of factories to produce all the various bike frames. This is from memory and unfortunately, I don't remember the source. :confused5:

Doug


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

All the bikes that aren't made outside of China are made in China.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

*Yours*



Issues like this make me glad I own a Cannondale


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

ddonner said:


> I read an article about 7 or 8 years ago that stated that unless a bike cost over the 3 or 4 thousand dollar (IIRC) mark, the frame was made in either China or Tiawan. Many in the same factory. The article went on to explain that there was a limited amount of factories to produce all the various bike frames. This is from memory and unfortunately, I don't remember the source. :confused5:
> 
> Doug




not surprising, although it would obviously have to be _non-customs_ <3-4k


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you don't need to include Taiwan to get most of them. 94% of bikes imported into the US come from China. Taiwan exports 4.5M bikes/year, China 53.5M (China also supplies most of the CF to Taiwan)


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Issues like this make me glad I own a Cannondale


Even the flag wavers at Cannondale use China on the Synapse carbon models.


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## Addicted (Jun 14, 2007)

An interesting article on where bikes are "made".

http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

teoteoteo said:


> Even the flag wavers at Cannondale use China on the Synapse carbon models.


Its a CAAD4 :wink:






Oh, and I was being facetious


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

Addicted said:


> An interesting article on where bikes are "made".
> 
> http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328


People should have this link ready to paste because this question comes up all the time.

I have a "RC" labeled Bianchi, and yes, was a little disappointed to know that my "handmade in Italy" sticker may be meaningless. BUT the bike still rides like a dream, however, it's a bit disingenuous to have some Bianchi frames labeled from Taiwan and some made in Italy, when they know full well the difference is minor (assembled in Italy? handpainted in Italy?). 

Not a big deal, but I also don't like being treated dishonestly - don't slap the "italy" sticker on it if it doesn't deserve it.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Define "bike" and define "made".


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Define "bike" and define "made".


I'll take a stab. When the average consumer sees a complete bike with a label on the frame that says "Made in U.S.A.", they should be able to reasonably assume the following:
1. The frame itself (where the sticker was placed) was welded and painted in the U.S.A., however, this frame doesn't have to include the fork as arguably, the fork may have a different sticker (made in Taiwan), however, if the fork does NOT have a sticker, than the frame and fork must be manufactured in the U.S. The tubes themselves may be sourced from China, as long as the frame itself is welded/molded in the U.S.A. In other words, wherever that sticker is placed, that item itself has to at least be made in the U.S.A.
2. The second implication is that the bike was ALSO assembled in U.S.A. If there is no other sticker that says assembled in Mexico/Canada/etc., then the consumer should be allowed to expect that not only was the frame made in the U.S.A. but the entire bike was assembled in the U.S.A. If the bike was assembled elsewhere, then place another sticker attesting to that distinction.
3. Or, if the bike is a mishmash of parts none of which is made in the U.S., then a sticker can say something like: "Assembled in U.S.A."

Unfortunately, without clear labeling guidelines, marketers can take advantage of ambiguity to mislead consumer expectations.

Car manufacturers have stickers that says show what % parts are from U.S. and where the car was assembled as well. But unlike cars, bikes are highly customizable, so most often you buy the bike for the frame because you end up replacing the other components anyway. Thus labeling accuracy should have the most bearing on the frame. Where a bike says "made in U.S.A." on the frame the following are possible inaccuracies, but only one would be acceptable I believe:
1. Frame manufactured in U.S.A. from foreign tubing, and assembled elsewhere with components including fork from elsewhere. Acceptable as long as at least the frame is made in the U.S., because that is where the sticker is placed.
2. Frame assembled in U.S.A. from all foreign components/frame. Not acceptable, must say "assembled in U.S.A." not "made".
3. Assembled in U.S.A. and fork made in U.S.A., but nothing else. Not acceptable.

I place a strong distinction between "made" and "assembled", and these terms should be used accurately.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

I doubt that the average consumer wouldn't read through everything you just posted, much less care about the distinctions you are drawing.

Trying to define where an entire bike is manufactured and/or assembled is nonsensical in this day and age. The best you could do is label each component with the country where it was manufactured, but even then you have ambiguities, especially with finishing and paint.

Which is why this whole issue is a big waste of time, IMO. Judge a product based on the company's track record and/or warantee. Leave the countries of origin out of it. The don't mean squat anyway unless you believe that intelligence, skill and integrity are linked to nationality.


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## jordan (Feb 2, 2002)

I have observed recently that some brands of aluminum and steel bike frames that were formerly made in Taiwan are now made in China,with an obvious decline in weld and paint quality.The all carbon frames often are made in China by Taiwan based manufacturers,but seem to maintain a high standard of quality.It is often difficult to tell which factory is making a carbon frame for a big name brand.The high end names are playing a game of re-branding and re-painting Taiwan/Chinese carbon frames and selling them at huge mark-ups to status conscious consumers who could buy the same or very similar frame re-badged by a lower markup/less middlemen/less marketing cost/less warranty back-up internet based company.The European manufacturers have become very slick at concealing the true origin of their frames as well as forks and components.Some European countries have very weak labeling laws and it is tough to determine where anything,especially clothing is made.It is fun but often difficult to figure out which Taiwan/Chinese frames/forks are the true low mark-up bargains versus the highly marked up/re-branded big name brands.The issue is not a waste of time for me when hundreds or even thousands of dollars in excess mark-up costs can be saved.I also feel much better riding a nice $600 carbon frame than worrying over a $2500 frame with a high-zoot name that could become toast in a fairly minor crash or mishap that lands you in the ditch.


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> I doubt that the average consumer wouldn't read through everything you just posted, much less care about the distinctions you are drawing.
> 
> Trying to define where an entire bike is manufactured and/or assembled is nonsensical in this day and age. The best you could do is label each component with the country where it was manufactured, but even then you have ambiguities, especially with finishing and paint.
> 
> Which is why this whole issue is a big waste of time, IMO. Judge a product based on the company's track record and/or warantee. Leave the countries of origin out of it. The don't mean squat anyway unless you believe that intelligence, skill and integrity are linked to nationality.


Your point makes sense in theory, but why then do bike salespeople make a big point of emphasizing that their bike is "made in Italy" or "100% made in the U.S.A." unless that statement had an influence on the buyer? Last year my LBS Trek dealer tried to sell my wife a Pilot and kept emphasizing how Trek is made in the U.S.A., until I pointed out that the label on the Pilot actually said Made in Taiwan - in his embarrassment he stuttered that they only recently moved production to Asia.

Obviously, to a sophisticated biker who peruses these forums, he is knowledgeable enough that country of origin is irrelevant, but the first time bike buyer will be impressed by the "made in Italy" label over the "made in Taiwan" label.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Kung Fu Felice said:


> Obviously, to a sophisticated biker who peruses these forums, he is knowledgeable enough that country of origin is irrelevant, but the first time bike buyer will be impressed by the "made in Italy" label over the "made in Taiwan" label.


My point is that country of origin should be irrelevent to everyone. Obviously, retailers will do anything they can (within the law) to trade on bias towards US/European manufacturing over Asian manufactuing, but the bias itself is the fault of uninformed consumers. Caveat emptor.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Plus bike salespeople "say", they don't expect an American consumer to actually "read" anything. That would require literacy, interest and personal responsibility, all of which would preclude listening to anything an LBS employee had to say in the first place.

"Made" is really a far more complicated term than people realize. Even with a pencil it's very hard to say where it's made since every component is from a different part of the world. But that doesn't keep US congressmen and regulators from claiming the expertise to do so. Gosh they're smart.


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## raghead (May 2, 2006)

Some conscientious consumers do not regard country of origin as irrelevant. It is not just about quality and value. 

Chinese manufacturing is unabashedly polluting and energy-intensive. Many asian factory workers live and work in disgusting conditions. Someone who buys a bike made in the USA, France or Italy could hope that it was made in a safe workplace by people earning fair pay.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

******* said:


> Someone who buys a bike made in the USA, France or Italy could hope that it was made in a safe workplace by people earning fair pay.


They might hope that but the point of this thread is that such hopes are naive. Few, if any, such bikes are available.


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## scwolf (Mar 27, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> They might hope that but the point of this thread is that such hopes are naive. Few, if any, such bikes are available.


A custom bike would address the concerns! Unfortunately, not everybody has (or wants to spend) the $$ for even an entry level custom bike.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

My Titus Solera is made here right in Tempe, Arizona!


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

Juanmoretime said:


> My Titus Solera is made here right in Tempe, Arizona!


where did the carbon come tubes from ???


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

sevencycle said:


> where did the carbon come tubes from ???


And where did everything other than the frame come from?

"Made" in Tempe, Arizona from imported components.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

sevencycle said:


> where did the carbon come tubes from ???


Solera is made from American titanium tubes! No carbon.


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

where was the phone made that you called Titus on.


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## rmsmith (Feb 15, 2007)

sevencycle said:


> where was the phone made that you called Titus on.


All of the "over the counter" medications come from China too. Profits!


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

All Cerveolo carbon frames are made in China.

Does this make them any less desirable?


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## TiDreaming (Jul 20, 2007)

ewitz said:


> All Cerveolo carbon frames are made in China.
> 
> Does this make them any less desirable?



Hell Yes. And if you say not you are only kidding yourself. Thats why frame makers and builders go to such great extent to misguide the consumer.

If we just lived in an honest world..hmm..lets just say ideal world, then consumers should be able to safely assume that when a a bike stickers says "Made in Country X" then that is where said bike and its bit was made ie from primary manufacturing to final assembly was ..in Country X. But alas that is not how the real world operates.

BTW very disappointed to find out RC Bianchi comes out of Asia:mad2: because being made in Taiwan is not nearly as reputable/"desirable" as being made in Italy. This may just be marketing perception..but then thats another debate altogether.


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

I posted this on another thread, but I thought I might pose a related question here:

WHY IS IT A BAD THING THAT A BIKE IS MADE IN CHINA???

Sure, it's romantic to think that an old Italian bike maker designs and creates frames in his garage. He does so with love and attention and sheds a tear every time one is sold. He then calls you once a year to check on how the bike is doing.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Many bike companies would charge an arm and a leg for their base level machines if they did it this way. Otherwise, they would go out of business. Maybe it's me, but I like the idea of my bike coming from a large factory that has a long history of creating frames with quality controls and standards.

Next thing you'll tell is that your beloved American car is 100% "Made in the USA"


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I'm surprised this question is coming from a tri. Go to slowtwitch and read some of their features on the bike biz. A lot of indepth writing on the inside of the bike business and Asian bike manufacturing especially. for example, http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/features/bikebiz.html 

The short answer is some people care because 1) Chinese manufacturing is highly unregulated, so manufacturing quality is an issue. There's a difference between designing a frame and having it built to specs with an agent overseeing the Q/C and buying lots of frames designed and built completely by a company that until two years ago either didn't exist or mostly built golf clubs. Shoddy Q/C is a big issue (e.g., toxic additives to foods that recently made the news). 2) some people care about labor laws, environmental practices etc. As the above link indicates, the paint on some frames in China wouldn't be allowed to be used in US manufacturing.


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## C_T (May 22, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> The short answer is some people care because 1) Chinese manufacturing is highly unregulated, so manufacturing quality is an issue. There's a difference between designing a frame and having it built to specs with an agent overseeing the Q/C and buying lots of frames designed and built completely by a company that until two years ago either didn't exist or mostly built golf clubs. Shoddy Q/C is a big issue (e.g., toxic additives to foods that recently made the news). 2) some people care about labor laws, environmental practices etc. As the above link indicates, the paint on some frames in China wouldn't be allowed to be used in US manufacturing.


Exactly. Do you guys really want to support the Chinese government?
Don't forget Tibet.


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

Tri Slow Poke said:


> Sure, it's romantic to think that an old Italian bike maker designs and creates frames in his garage. He does so with love and attention and sheds a tear every time one is sold. He then calls you once a year to check on how the bike is doing.


Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. Generally speaking, I observe 3 types of bicycle enthusiasts and the mixes in between.: 
1. The bicycle artiste: love of bicycle heritage, history, the art of bicycle making - cost is secondary (they'd pay $500 for 18 year old NOS Campy components); custom and vintage bikes are the bomb, because quite simply, it's all about craftsmanship and passion
2. The racer: it's all about getting faster, better, lighter - every ounce saved is worth $$ 
3. The commuter - just need to get to work on something that will last forever, and yes, money is important, so no need for Chris King if he can get something that works for $5 made in Cambodia.

So those who show a disdain for China made bikes are mostly those with the attitude and sensibilities of the #1 bicycle enthusiast. #2 and #3 by far are about value: if it works the way it's supposed to, it matters not where it comes from.

Your idea of "romantic" notions are absolutely correct. It applies to those who CARE where the bike came from, including the history of the builder as well as the history of that specific model. So, indeed, to those who have a romantic approach to bicycle ownership, "made in China" is unacceptable to them. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a preference that shouldn't be criticized, because these bicycle enthusiasts approach bicycling with the same sort of passion as wine connoisseurs approach their object d'art.


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## TiDreaming (Jul 20, 2007)

My point was never about romanticism or about being bad/good form where a product is made, its about the convolution and misleading representation of where these bike come from. 

End of the day, these tactics are used as less reputable companies know Joe Cyclist will be more likely spend his dollars on a frame/bike if he/she believes it was made in one of the highly regarded cycling manufacturers.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

*Some observations from out east.*



> Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. Generally speaking, I observe 3 types of bicycle enthusiasts and the mixes in between.:
> 1. The bicycle artiste: love of bicycle heritage, history, the art of bicycle making - cost is secondary (they'd pay $500 for 18 year old NOS Campy components); custom and vintage bikes are the bomb, because quite simply, it's all about craftsmanship and passion
> 2. The racer: it's all about getting faster, better, lighter - every ounce saved is worth $$
> 3. The commuter - just need to get to work on something that will last forever, and yes, money is important, so no need for Chris King if he can get something that works for $5 made in Cambodia.
> ...


That's a reasonable breakdown of the enthusiast demographic. I'd go so far as to suggest it's possible to be all three at once. I was when I commuted to work in London on a Campag Super Record equipped Bob Jackson 20 years ago (on tubulars naturally) and did the odd hill climb race with my club in Yorkshire.

My problem is with the cynical way that types 1 and 2 are being treated. Here in Tokyo I see lots of high end bikes in the specialist shops and a fair percentage are 'legacy models' from Italy from the likes of Colnago and De Rosa. The weekend enthusiast here is often prepared to pay $6000 + for these machines. I've been appalled by the finish quality on some of these frames. The lining on the underside of the bottom bracket shell on three Colnago Master frames I saw recently looked like it was applied by some robot arm in severe need of calibration. Similarly the paintwork around the fork crown of a De Rosa steel framed bicycle was nothing short of scandalous. Inept beyond words. I wanted to take a photo with my camera phone as it had to be seen to be believed. The price tag on this bike was over 650,000 yen! The cheaper Tommassini machines on show were far better quality in terms of finish. I'm noticing more and more examples of shoddy workmanship coming from Italy, especially from Colnago. It's fine to get misty-eyed about the works of art produced in the past and I don't want to bash these fine frame builders but these days I think it's more important to buy the bike, not the history. So 'Type 1's' beware.

I rode to this bike shop (it's called Nukaya in Naka Meguro south west Tokyo) on my 2005 model Kuota Kharma. The frame is made by Martec in China (I've heard they also make the Kestrel frames). It's a beautifully finished carbon frame with a great ride and amazing bang for buck value.(It gets maximum points in every review on RBR) I noticed a rather beautiful Klein Q Elite- the paintwork was far superior to the 6000 buck De Rosa facing it. It was also half the price. I was wishing it came as a frame only deal minus the boring Ultegra groupset (there's the bike snob in me) until I realised on closer inspection that I already owned the frame. It is identical in every respect to my Kuota frame of 2 years ago. Mmm. I went to Klein's homepage -take a look http://www.kleinbikes.com/, they have lots to say about 'their' carbon technology and the smarts that went into this new range. Just forgot to say who makes the damn thing. 
Lesson 2: Don't buy the history, buy the bike. Before you buy the bike, DO SOME RESEARCH and then buy the frame manufacturer.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

Forrest Root said:


> All the bikes that aren't made outside of China are made in China.


Orly?

You're a lying b*stard, Forrest Root. I don't believe you.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

sevencycle said:


> where did the carbon come tubes from ???


considering that it's titanium...


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

TiDreaming said:


> My point was never about romanticism or about being bad/good form where a product is made, its about the convolution and misleading representation of where these bike come from.
> 
> End of the day, these tactics are used as less reputable companies know Joe Cyclist will be more likely spend his dollars on a frame/bike if he/she believes it was made in one of the highly regarded cycling manufacturers.




What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it. Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation. 

Many of the companies in China may not be highly regarded cycling companies, but many are high qualiy bike manufacturers!


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## TiDreaming (Jul 20, 2007)

_What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it. _

If you have have read all the way down to this post I presumed you have read all the points above so I am not going to go over it again.

Some how I would doubt that most bike dealers/retailers would be enthusiastic about divulging to the consumer that the bike they are interested in purchasing was "made in China". Converse is true I find IRL, if its "made in USA' or "made in Italy" it pretty much part of the sales pitch.

_Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation. 
_
I would be worried if if the Kuota sales rep was hesitant about that information. Dont think he would sell too many bikes otherwise.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

estone2 said:


> Orly?
> 
> You're a lying b*stard, Forrest Root. I don't believe you.


It's true. I have verifiable proof.


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## raghead (May 2, 2006)

C_T said:


> Exactly. Do you guys really want to support the Chinese government?
> Don't forget Tibet.


Or harvesting organs for transplant from religious/political prisoners (Falun Dafa practicioners). Or displacing millions for the new dam...


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

They have moderate to serious quality control issues in China (and Taiwan). Since you have to buy bikes by the container full, you need a rep there to make sure that they actually filled it with bikes and not toilet paper ( which you already paid for!).

Overall they are not THAT bad (for the money). If you are the type of rider who buys a new bike every 2 years then Chinese made bikes are fine.


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

TiDreaming said:


> _What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it. _
> 
> If you have have read all the way down to this post I presumed you have read all the points above so I am not going to go over it again.
> 
> ...





I see that you (among others) are taking my comments personally and getting sensitive about it. I'm not sure why, but I'll stop posting on the subject after this. Most of our clothes., electronics, and automobiles are made in Asian countries. Heck, the computer I'm using was made in a factory! Like everything else, the consumer is responsible for what they buy and not the company's "sales pitch". 

I also find it interesting that a few folks here mentioned the "unregulated" factory workers in Asia who have terrible working conditions. I'd like to remind everyone that a two income family making minumum wage in the U.S. still lives under the poverty line.......but that's a topic for another board.


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

******* said:


> Or harvesting organs for transplant from religious/political prisoners (Falun Dafa practicioners). Or displacing millions for the new dam...


but remember they did give us fortune cookies!!!!


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## TiDreaming (Jul 20, 2007)

Tri Slow Poke said:


> I see that you (among others) are taking my comments personally and getting sensitive about it.
> 
> Please dont stop posting your side of the debate. I m not sensitive..maybe a consumer advocate:thumbsup:


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## Kung Fu Felice (Apr 17, 2007)

Tri Slow Poke said:


> What tactics are you referring to? The Trek I bought had a "Made in China" sticker on it. Kuota's U.S. sales rep told me where his frames were manufactured with no hesitation.
> 
> Many of the companies in China may not be highly regarded cycling companies, but many are high qualiy bike manufacturers!



I have been told by posters here that my Bianchi 928 C2C RC despite what the sticker says, the frame is produced in China and only assembled/painted in Italy; so even though the sticker on the frame says "handmade in Italy" it isn't exactly "handmade" in Italy to the same degree as a Look or Time frame that is entirely made in France. IMO, this is misleading, because when I purchased the bike, the retailer made a big deal about pointing out the "handmade" sticker - how bogus is that?


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

I too have a Bianchi carbon frame with a handmade in Italy sticker. I purchased a frame only so there was no "assembly" anywhere except my garage. The frame is nude carbon without any clearcoat. Should a quick spay for the downtube "Bianchi" logo qualify the made in Italy? I think they should be up front about it.

I don't have an issue with where the frame is made, as long as the company is honest about it. I applaud Colnago for doing just that, clearing stating models like the CLX are not made in Italy. Because of that, my last frame purchase was a Colnago.


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

TiDreaming said:


> Tri Slow Poke said:
> 
> 
> > I see that you (among others) are taking my comments personally and getting sensitive about it.
> ...


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## TiDreaming (Jul 20, 2007)

_First, it's the consumer's responsibility to know what they are buying. It's not the seller's. _

I completely agree, but when the manufactures purposefully mislead the consumer, the consumer has very little chance. 

_I appreciate your defense of the consumer, but a consumer educating him/herself before they spend $$$ on a bike._

In part this is why I am posting...its about education.

_Besides, I think that I would rather go with a company that makes alot of frames (i.e. Martec) rather than a place that didn't make as many._

Dont take this personally..but this is grossly wrong as what you are implying is that volume = quality. There is no way a Ferrari is gonna be inferior to a Ford, this may be an over simplication but you get the point.


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## de.abeja (Aug 27, 2006)

Steave Waugh said:


> China is the great market for bikes and China made brands are very populler in all over the world.........


Yes Steve they are very POPULLER!


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## HAL9000 (May 1, 2002)

sevencycle said:


> but remember they did give us fortune cookies!!!!


Acutally I do believe that the fortune cookie is an american (domestic) invention (or rather inovation).


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

I completely agree, but when the manufactures purposefully mislead the consumer, the consumer has very little chance. 

Every consumer has the same chances.


Dont take this personally..but this is grossly wrong as what you are implying is that volume = quality. There is no way a Ferrari is gonna be inferior to a Ford, this may be an over simplication but you get the point.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Ford has a much better track record than Ferrari in terms of quality and reliability. It's probably because they make more cars.


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## TiDreaming (Jul 20, 2007)

_I completely agree, but when the manufactures purposefully mislead the consumer, the consumer has very little chance.

Every consumer has the same chances.


Dont take this personally..but this is grossly wrong as what you are implying is that volume = quality. There is no way a Ferrari is gonna be inferior to a Ford, this may be an over simplication but you get the point.[/quote]

Actually, Ford has a much better track record than Ferrari in terms of quality and reliability. It's probably because they make more cars._

Gees..you really need to think about your responses/rebuttals...

If every consumer has the same chance..this debate/thread would be non-existent. 

Ferraris/Fords..seriously your statement here is ignorant..again nothing personal


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

teoteoteo said:


> Even the flag wavers at Cannondale use China on the Synapse carbon models.


Cannondale will have some complete bicycles built in China in 2008 model year.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

*A difference*

"They have moderate to serious quality control issues in China (and Taiwan). Since you have to buy bikes by the container full, you need a rep there to make sure that they actually filled it with bikes and not toilet paper ( which you already paid for!)."

This statement is luckily false - in a couple of ways. 

1 - no factory in China {that any brand I know of would buy from} will ship intentionally something that is not ordered.

2 -- statement implies China and Taiwan are the same. That is just not true. Brands that bring lower level bikes from China tend to bring upper level from Taiwan for a reason. And to suggest there are 'moderate to serious' QC issues in Taiwan is just crazy. QC in Taiwan beats Italy by a long shot as anyone in the biz will tell you and Taiwan is now up to where Japan was when the Yen went crazy and we all had to drop bikes from Japan.

I am sensitive to this as several years ago some members on this and other forums stated that Motobecanes were crap from China. Funny thing is NO MOTOBECANE has been made in China. All Motobecanes we import are from Taiwan. Of course, Trek, Specialized, Giant, and soon Cannondale all bring bikes from China. No problem with that. However, they and their accountants will tell you - China and Taiwan are different; in price and QC.

And one last note:
'Made In USA" standard I think is 98% USA content - some in congress recently tried to get it dropped to 75% without success. Even if it went to the logical 50% - what bike would be 'Made in USA"?

most important thing is safely enjoying your ride; just my opinion

mike


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> "They have moderate to serious quality control issues in China (and Taiwan). Since you have to buy bikes by the container full, you need a rep there to make sure that they actually filled it with bikes and not toilet paper ( which you already paid for!)."
> 
> This statement is luckily false - in a couple of ways.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion but 20+ years in manufacturing has lead me to that "quality control" statement and I stand by it.


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

My bike is made in Tunisia. Does that make it any better than a bike made in China?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Aktion said:


> I respect your opinion but 20+ years in manufacturing has lead me to that "quality control" statement and I stand by it.


I respect your 20 years in manufacturing
however I guess it is not in the cycling industry

every major quality bike maker on earth has the upmost respect for the QC in Taiwan; including all the big names in Italy or where ever you want to name

Taiwan has put a special focus on the cycling industry and they have gotten to be as good or better than anyone anywhere ever has been

That is what I think after 30 years in the bicycle business -- the list of those who agree with me on this issue includes everyone I can think of and know in the bike industry.

China is a completely different question and situation; my point is that the 2 countries should not be treated as one [on many levels]

mike


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## jmoryl (Sep 5, 2004)

ewitz said:


> My bike is made in Tunisia. Does that make it any better than a bike made in China?


Every Tunisian bike I have seen has been pretty high quality.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

2 -- statement implies China and Taiwan are the same. That is just not true...[/QUOTE]

I think whether that is, or isn't true, is the subject of a lot of guns being pointed at a lot of people right now... 

(yes, I know these days there is a practical difference, regardless of the political state of affairs)


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I don't believe that distinguishing and defining the location something is made, or assembled will be that important, or such an issue in the near future. The fact is, that China, and other "pacific rim" countries excel in the ability to manufacture. Furthermore, as time goes by, the quality will improve substantially. 
For the mfg's, its less a matter of being dishonest, as it is a matter of smart business sense. 
Several companies in my industry rely heavily on Chinese manufacturing, but also are incredibly rigid when it comes to quality, and meeting ALL of the specifications for that particular item.
I know what quality is when a nice frame is put in front of me. If it comes from china, so be it...
The more people ride high end chinese bikes (frames), the better the quality will be in the future, as long as the brand demands perfection.
My current frame is aluminum from china. It has clean welds, is perfectly straight, and is exceptional on the road.


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## jordan (Feb 2, 2002)

jmoryl said:


> Every Tunisian bike I have seen has been pretty high quality.


All the Tunisian bikes I have seen appear to have excellent QC and are made by the French company LOOK.


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## dsilver668 (Jul 31, 2007)

As far as I can say I think Taiwan has better quality control over main land China. High end frames have been produced in Taiwan longer and I think the skilled labor set might be a little better. This is why big name bike companies are slow to adopt getting frames from China. The costs are lower but so is quality. It takes time to bring a new facility online and get the workers and process up to speed. They also have to refine their QC process over time so that only the ighest quality is allowed to ship. I am not going to get into polotics or human rights because lets face it this is economy of scale and it allows places like China and lower cost labor force countires to thrive. We, i.e. the consumer wants the best for cheep. Nuf said.
To that end I saw online pedalforce.com and their QS2 frame. I am trying to find out if anyone has any experiance with them.Obviously there isn't the support of the LBS and a brand name but honestly If I ride it for two years, I can go back take the Ultegra set off it and buy a brand name frame. Nothing wrong with that.


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

I would never ride a bike made in China as my Giant is designed in USA!!!!!!


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## dsilver668 (Jul 31, 2007)

hahahaha good one seven cycle. Actually I like Giant. Don't think they are bad at all. the fact they have a single factory for their fomrula one frames is great. They also imploy technologies, i.e. lugless design that you don't see other places. So the engineers live in the US.. wooohooo wave the flag and all that.. At the end of the day Tiawan has the technology and no how to make stuff and do it cheaply, so we don't build it here anymore.


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

my last bike was t-mobile advance.I liked it. Fast & Cheap


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

sevencycle said:


> I would never ride a bike made in China as my Giant is designed in USA!!!!!!


Dude, Giant's are made in Taiwan. By Martec composites, IIRC.

Most bikes aren't _designed_ in China or Taiwan. They're made there. Just like Look is designed in France, manufactured in Tunisia.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

Forrest Root said:


> It's true. I have verifiable proof.


Well then prove it!


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

estone2 said:


> Dude, Giant's are made in Taiwan. By Martec composites, IIRC.
> 
> Most bikes aren't _designed_ in China or Taiwan. They're made there. Just like Look is designed in France, manufactured in Tunisia.


 Dude dont burst my bubble.Next thing you will tell that Lance is not French.


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## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

dsilver668 said:


> As far as I can say I think Taiwan has better quality control over main land China. High end frames have been produced in Taiwan longer and I think the skilled labor set might be a little better. This is why big name bike companies are slow to adopt getting frames from China. The costs are lower but so is quality. It takes time to bring a new facility online and get the workers and process up to speed. They also have to refine their QC process over time so that only the ighest quality is allowed to ship. I am not going to get into polotics or human rights because lets face it this is economy of scale and it allows places like China and lower cost labor force countires to thrive. We, i.e. the consumer wants the best for cheep. Nuf said.
> To that end I saw online pedalforce.com and their QS2 frame. I am trying to find out if anyone has any experiance with them.Obviously there isn't the support of the LBS and a brand name but honestly If I ride it for two years, I can go back take the Ultegra set off it and buy a brand name frame. Nothing wrong with that.


I have a PF RS, actually built two of them, several posters at the other Bike Forum have QS2 frames and could provide you with some insight


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

estone2 said:


> Dude, Giant's are made in Taiwan. By Martec composites, IIRC.
> 
> Most bikes aren't _designed_ in China or Taiwan. They're made there. Just like Look is designed in France, manufactured in Tunisia.


 From what I understand, Look's situation is a little different than most other frame makers. They own the plant in Africa where the frames are built. They have control over the process. I'm not saying frames made in Asia are not good, but Look's situation isn't the same as most other frame makers.


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## sevencycle (Apr 23, 2006)

sevencycle said:


> Dude dont burst my bubble.Next thing you will tell that Lance is not French.


Hi end Looks are still French. They even weave their own Carbon. I dont know of any bike maker doinn that!!!


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Richieg said:


> From what I understand, Look's situation is a little different than most other frame makers. They own the plant in Africa where the frames are built. They have control over the process. I'm not saying frames made in Asia are not good, but Look's situation isn't the same as most other frame makers.


please note that Look imports some frames from Advanced Composites in Taiwan
and they will certainly increase the percentage of frames coming from Asia; just like everyone else has


mike


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

Richieg said:


> From what I understand, Look's situation is a little different than most other frame makers. They own the plant in Africa where the frames are built. They have control over the process. I'm not saying frames made in Asia are not good, but Look's situation isn't the same as most other frame makers.


Oh, I know.

What I'm saying is that few companies still make the product in the same location as the company's claimed nationality. (Is that properly phrased? I'm having trouble talking today )


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## dsilver668 (Jul 31, 2007)

Estone2 I understand. Also even though Cervelo has great engineers making their frames, they then work with a Taiwan agent to manage the relationship with the factory or factories to produce the parts. It is suprising anything gets done but Taiwan has refined their carbon parts production to the point where they are some of the best. Giant is unique where they actually design their own product in Taiwan and are some of the leaders in Carbon frame production hands down.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

sevencycle said:


> Hi end Looks are still French. They even weave their own Carbon. I dont know of any bike maker doinn that!!!


I think you are confusing LOOK with TIME. TIME weaves their own carbon. All LOOK high end production is done at their plant in Africa


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> I think you are confusing LOOK with TIME. TIME weaves their own carbon. All LOOK high end production is done at their plant in Africa


Look also makes their own CF.


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## Ritalalala (Apr 12, 2018)

I accidentally clicked on this thread, as if the content of the discussion was not a Chinese brand, it was raised to "made in China".
Twelve years have passed, and some Chinese brands have indeed passed the test of time.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

You 'accidentally' posted in a thread that hasn't seen a post since '07? Yeah, right.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

cxwrench said:


> You 'accidentally' posted in a thread that hasn't seen a post since '07? Yeah, right.


We've seen worse accidents. Remember November of 2016?


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## palangmead (Dec 30, 2021)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> My point is that country of origin should be irrelevent to everyone. Obviously, retailers will do anything they can (within the law) to trade on bias towards US/European manufacturing over Asian manufactuing, but the bias itself is the fault of uninformed consumers. Caveat emptor.


If you believe that the people who make the products you buy and use deserve the same rights and privileges as you, the same access to healthcare and a safe work environment as you and at the very least a comparable standard of living as you, then it very much matters knowing where things are made.

The quality of the products may not be different, but would you rather work, in a bike factory in Europe or one in China?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

palangmead said:


> If you believe that the people who make the products you buy and use deserve the same rights and privileges as you, the same access to healthcare and a safe work environment as you and at the very least a comparable standard of living as you, then it very much matters knowing where things are made.
> 
> The quality of the products may not be different, but would you rather work, in a bike factory in Europe or one in China?


Your point being, spending more on kit made by better treated and compensated workers is legit. Just FYI… My Scott was made in Taiwan as many others are… Taiwan has a higher standard of living than the majority of the EU. IPP (Individual Purchasing Power) is very high compared to other developed countries. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## palangmead (Dec 30, 2021)

Agreed, Taiwan is a developed, stable democracy. Different country to China.


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## MDM (Jun 10, 2020)

Chinarellos and other counterfeit bikes are made in mainland China.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MDM said:


> Chinarellos and other counterfeit bikes are made in mainland China.


Where and who make something is not relevant. How it’s made and the engineering and the manufacturing following the engineering is all that matters. Obviously this reality has been lost on your racist self.


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## shrubs (Apr 6, 2021)

I remember made in Japan causing anxieties.

Let’s include where clothing of any kind is made.


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