# How much faster is a supported centurty than a solo?



## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

The short of my question is how much is carrying 12 lbs of stuff on my solo distance rides slowing me down compared to when I do a supported century where I will carry one 22 oz water bottle.

The longer explanation:

I have been doing longer road rides recently (60 - 90 miles) in anticipation of a century at the end of May (Mountains of Misery, 104 miles, ~10,000' climbing). I have been doing these rides in the same area as the century (SW VA), which is very mountainous, basically it is all up and down, with 1000'-1500' sustained climbs typically occurring every ~25-30 miles, and some rides may include one that is more like 2,000.

Once I was riding over 60 miles, I began keeping better track of the time, and found that from start to finish I average about 11 mph, including stops and eating. I never really though about whether this was fast or not, but then I looked at the median finish times for Mounatins of Misery, and after accounting for the fact that it ends a lot higher than it starts (it ends with a nightmarish 2,000' climb, ridiculously steep in places), I figure these people were averaging around 13.5 to 14 mph over similar terrain as I am riding, before the final 2K' crawl.

I realize there are a few things that are likely slowing me down that will change during the century, but I wondering if they really make that much of a difference. For one, I am carrying all my food and most of my water. Once I got to 70 mile rides, between food, water, extra clothing, and rear rack, my 21 lb Casseroll (rack-less), weighed in at 34 lbs. For the century, I will only be carrying a water bottle, and probably loose the rack. Basically, I will be about 12 lbs lighter off the start. I'm also wondering is the mini-panniers that I sometimes have deployed are significant in term of wind resistance over the long haul.

This is not a race, but I am wondering what to expect.

So, I am not really looking for advice on how to go faster, just trying to get an idea how much difference the weight I am lugging around is making, as well as things like how much quicker stops are when they are all prepared for you.

FWIW, I have been riding a lot for the past 12 years. More mountain than road. Road has, in the past, always been something I did when I had less time. Long, epic rides have always been on dirt. I just got the long-distance road bug last fall, and ditching the CF race bike for the Casseroll made it a lot more pleasant (albeit slower).

Thanks.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

1 or 2 mph faster.. Are you going to be drafting too? Then maybe several mph faster still.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*depends*

All of my solo centuries were faster. The supported ones I did, were just exercises in frustration. 

What do you mean by supported?


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

kapusta said:


> The short of my question is how much is carrying 12 lbs of stuff on my solo distance rides slowing me down compared to when I do a supported century where I will carry one 22 oz water bottle.


Less than people selling light bike parts want you to believe.

Here are a few numbers for a hypothetical 150 pound rider putting out 150W with .4 Sd/.760 Cd/.004 Crr atop a 20 pound bike. The effects will be less pronounced if you're bigger.

No extra weight: 19.5 mph flat, 11.1 mph up 3%, 6.7 mph up 6%
12 pounds (6kg): 19.4 mph flat, 10.5 mph up 3%, 6.1 mph up 6%

Aerodynamics can be significant though - I loose about 1.5 MPH with the same 15 pounds in a pannier on my commute instead of a back pack which is about what I predict from the change in CdA. I take the pannier though - it's a lot more comfortable.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

ttug said:


> All of my solo centuries were faster. The supported ones I did, were just exercises in frustration.
> 
> What do you mean by supported?


By supported I mean that they have food and water at all the stops, so I do not need to it carry it all myself. I figure all I will need are the basic saddlebag tools, spare tube, and one water bottle.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

Double post.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

cyclesport45 said:


> Are you going to be drafting too? Then maybe several mph faster still.


You know, I had not even thought of that:idea: 

I don't know. I never do group rides around here, so I am pretty out of practice with drafting or riding in a pack in this sort of terrain. I did it some when I lived out west, as there would be long flat stretches between the big passes but around here (at least where the Century is held) it seems like it is mostly either up or down, very little flat. There is some, just not much. So, I don't know how much the other riders draft in hilly terrain, but I don't think I would be very good at it (except on the flats), and I don't want to be the guy getting everyone else killed in the pace-line. 

I don't even know what the etiquette is in regards to drafting with people I don't know, I've only done it with my friends, and they'ed tell me when to line up and when not to.

So, I guess I probably won't be. I am now curious if most of the people whose times I am looking at were drafting much.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Less than people selling light bike parts want you to believe.
> 
> Here are a few numbers for a hypothetical 150 pound rider putting out 150W with .4 Sd/.760 Cd/.004 Crr atop a 20 pound bike. The effects will be less pronounced if you're bigger.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what Sd, Cd, Crr, or CdA are, but I get both points. Thanks.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Riding in a group and drafting makes far more difference than carrying less stuff. that accounts for most of the difference you see in times on those rides.


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## coachstevo (Sep 11, 2009)

I average close to the same as you on my non-supported climbing centuries-no drafting, etc

on supported climbing centuries there's no difference really- not much drafting help at 7mph.

on flattish ones big diff... just over 5hrs on Tour de tucson v 10 on Death ride --only 30 min of that 5 hours was NOT spent in a pack of 100+ riders v. only about 30 min of that 10 was spent with a few other riders on DR


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Exacto*



kapusta said:


> You know, I had not even thought of that:idea:
> 
> I don't know. I never do group rides around here, so I am pretty out of practice with drafting or riding in a pack in this sort of terrain. I did it some when I lived out west, as there would be long flat stretches between the big passes but around here (at least where the Century is held) it seems like it is mostly either up or down, very little flat. There is some, just not much. So, I don't know how much the other riders draft in hilly terrain, but I don't think I would be very good at it (except on the flats), and I don't want to be the guy getting everyone else killed in the pace-line.
> 
> ...


The best SOLO time I had was just under 5 hours, I recall 4:54 or 57. I think 57. The corse was rather flaty and it was fun.

The best GROUP time (me and 3 other riding buds) I had was in Nags Head NC with freak winds, we finished in just under 4, but again. FLAT, and FREAK winds. 

Supported, was pacing at under 5, and then everyone decided this was their day to pretend they were in euro peleton and feed zones blocked roads, people sprinting out of line, into your line etc etc. I finished at 5:28 and swore I would never ride one again.


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## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

If the ride is hilly, weight matters. I wouldn't carry more than two water bottles and typical repair stuff. I use to lug a lot of stuff just in case.... But it's just not needed. I would definitely lose the rack. I can't imagine what you would need that for. The rack and extras weigh as much as a bike. As far as cloths go, you can check, but clothing drops are common. That being said, time is the wrong goal. Go out at a medium pace and learn what your body can do. Save something for that climb. You want this to be a fun experience, so you do it again.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Yeah, why are you carrying all that stuff? I regularly do 200k brevets with two bottles, one small seat bag, and a few things in the jersey pockets.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

vontress said:


> If the ride is hilly, weight matters. I wouldn't carry more than two water bottles and typical repair stuff. I use to lug a lot of stuff just in case.... But it's just not needed. I would definitely lose the rack. I can't imagine what you would need that for. The rack and extras weigh as much as a bike. As far as cloths go, you can check, but clothing drops are common. _*That being said, time is the wrong goal.*_ Go out at a medium pace and learn what your body can do. Save something for that climb. You want this to be a fun experience, so you do it again.


Excellent point.


I'm doing my first half century tomorrow morning (On the way to work!). I'll have to keep telling myself, "Slower; steady pace. Slower!"


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

pmt said:


> Yeah, why are you carrying all that stuff?.


Because I eat it, drink it, or wear it.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

vontress said:


> If the ride is hilly, weight matters. I wouldn't carry more than two water bottles and typical repair stuff. I use to lug a lot of stuff just in case.... But it's just not needed. I would definitely lose the rack. I can't imagine what you would need that for. The rack and extras weigh as much as a bike. As far as cloths go, you can check, but clothing drops are common. That being said, time is the wrong goal. Go out at a medium pace and learn what your body can do. Save something for that climb. You want this to be a fun experience, so you do it again.


Yes, I am going to loose that stuff for the supported century.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

cda 455 said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> 
> I'm doing my first half century tomorrow morning (On the way to work!). I'll have to keep telling myself, "Slower; steady pace. Slower!"


I have this same problem, too hard, too fast. 

What I did at Livestrong in Austin was to watch cadence and heart rate only. Keeping myself in zone 3 and cadence above 80. I started with 3 water bottles, but quickly moved to 1 1/2 and skipping every other rest stop. I could have probably done it faster as I was hammering up a bit in the last leg because I was feeling good.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

pmt said:


> Yeah, why are you carrying all that stuff? I regularly do 200k brevets with two bottles, one small seat bag, and a few things in the jersey pockets.


That's about my recipe. Only I'll carry an extra small bottle in the middle jersey pocket.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Aren't there any churches or other buildings with a water hose where you can stop along your route? Even in the middle of summer, I do my 5-6 hour training rides with three 26oz bottles that I'll stop & refill at a couple of spots along the way. Jersey pockets are plenty large enough to carry a bottle and enough calories in food.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

Andrea138 said:


> Aren't there any churches or other buildings with a water hose where you can stop along your route? Even in the middle of summer, I do my 5-6 hour training rides with three 26oz bottles that I'll stop & refill at a couple of spots along the way. Jersey pockets are plenty large enough to carry a bottle and enough calories in food.


Sometimes. sometimes not. I am often doing new routes, so I don't know where I can count on food or water, Last ride I did, I could not count on water or food for the first 70 miles. Turns out there was one country store before that, but I did not know if it was open on Sundays. 

It's really not a big deal to me, I don't mind carrying the extra water if it means I don't need to think about where to refill if I am not sure. I'd rather just carry the extra bottles than have to keep looking around for a hose somewhere in the middle of the boondocks. If I know that I will be able to refill, I do carry fewer water bottles.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

If you don't ride in pacelines, I would predict that the supported century would be slower because you would be stopping more often and longer for food, drinks, etc. I doubt that carrying the extra weight riding solo would make much difference. However, riding in a paceline could easily add 2 mph to your average speed, particularly if it's windy.

If you are not familiar with riding in pacelines, learn about it and practice on some longer weekend rides before your century. The century is not the place to learn about paceline riding if you've never done it before, for the sake of your health and others involved.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*ding ding ding*



tarwheel2 said:


> If you don't ride in pacelines, I would predict that the supported century would be slower because you would be stopping more often and longer for food, drinks, etc. I doubt that carrying the extra weight riding solo would make much difference. However, riding in a paceline could easily add 2 mph to your average speed, particularly if it's windy.
> 
> If you are not familiar with riding in pacelines, learn about it and practice on some longer weekend rides before your century. The century is not the place to learn about paceline riding if you've never done it before, for the sake of your health and others involved.



AND HE GETS IT RIGHT!!!!!!


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

tarwheel2 said:


> If you are not familiar with riding in pacelines, learn about it and practice on some longer weekend rides before your century. The century is not the place to learn about paceline riding if you've never done it before, for the sake of your health and others involved.


I'll most likely be skipping the pacelines. As I said, I have done it before, but with people I knew, and it was really flat and straight.


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## jmx (Feb 17, 2011)

kapusta said:


> I'll most likely be skipping the pacelines. As I said, I have done it before, but with people I knew, and it was really flat and straight.


...not to mention a paceline kinda takes away some of the achievement for some people. Almost anybody can go fast when drafting. Why anybody would sign up to spend 100 miles sitting inches off somebodies rear, I don't know.


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

Since you are climbing a fair bit the drop in weight will make the climbs easier but it won't make you that much faster. The pack aero benefits are the biggest advantage though as mentioned above.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

ZoSoSwiM said:


> The pack aero benefits are the biggest advantage though as mentioned above.


This was driven home to me yesterday. I did my first century on Monday (102 miles in the mountains), and when I told a couple of people I know that road bike a lot about it they mentioned that having done it solo was an even bigger accomplishment (they don't know how slow I was  )


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

jmx said:


> ...not to mention a paceline kinda takes away some of the achievement for some people. Almost anybody can go fast when drafting. Why anybody would sign up to spend 100 miles sitting inches off somebodies rear, I don't know.


Because with a tight group of fellows, it's really fun to set a course record or simply complete the route quickly, working like a well-oiled machine. That also leaves more time afterwards to hang out and drink beer.

Both ways of doing endurance riding can be fun; I've done 200k rides that had a rolling time of 6:24 with total time out 6:47, and I've done them that took over eleven hours with a lunch stop and plenty of time to gaze at the countryside. Both are valid ways to do it.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

pmt said:


> Both ways of doing endurance riding can be fun; I've done 200k rides that had a rolling time of 6:24 with total time out 6:47, and I've done them that took over eleven hours with a lunch stop and plenty of time to gaze at the countryside. Both are valid ways to do it.


I totally respect the dedication and discipline in doing it the first way, but I am definitely all about the second, at least on the road.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Solo vs with others:

Certainly depends on who and how motivated the "others" are. When I do a century with a rider who's not up to giving much help, or alone, I figure on about one more hour riding time. When I go with a really strong rider or two...I subtract an hour's anticipated riding time. If it's a race...you never know...sometimes fast, sometimes slow.

If you buy into a Grand Fondue...you can hook on to fast groups and really get a tow, or contribute or team up and go really fast. As for me, I figure about one more hour if I do all the work myself. Three big bottles will get me about 50 miles on a really hot hard ride. A good pre-ride meal and some liquid or gel is adequate fuel.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I've done a bunch of solo centuries. Each time I left with my food and filled bottles along the way. I left on early mornings with a full bottle and an empty bottle since I didn't need much water before it got hot. About two hours in, I would fill the second bottle. I used a Bento Box (bento is Japanese for box so it's a box box) on my top tube next to the headtube to carry food, typically Clif Bloks, Clif bars, and Gels. I need a bar or package of blocks per hour with gel packs inbetween. I've done it on gels alone but I like having some solid food (bars) to settle my stomach. 

As far as organized centuries, I'm a faster rider so either I going from group to group or settling into a fast group, I find the ride to be stressful since there are so many people with varying levels of ability. Strong rider doesn't necessarily mean good rider. I typically have a group of people behind me after an hour or so because I'm a big, tall guy and offer a good draft. The downside is when I want to roll off and sit in the draft, the average speed usually drops a few mph or the line tries to roll off with me. 

I'm rambling on, but I'm off today. For me, the biggest downside to organized (supported) rides, is the spacing of rest stops. Most recreation riders look for a stop every hour or so but I like at least 30-40 miles between stops. I was the pres of cycling club and responsible for organizing century rides. To attract riders, I had to space the rest stops around 15-18 miles apart. Fortunately the course I organized was figure 8 shaped so it wasn't too difficult.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

When I do long rides solo, they are often faster than rides with groups as I rarely stop and get off the bike, which tends to happen a lot more with groups.


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## JimF22003 (Apr 30, 2009)

I've done MoM twice, and am doing it again this year (god help me...)

You can get into some pretty decent pacelines on the first half of the ride if you want to. There's actually a quite long slightly downhill stretch that you can really motor on if you want.

The rest stops are great. I'd use 'em if I were you. There's one right before the first big climb where they always serve baked potatoes in salt. Yumm!

There's also a stop about 2/3rds of the way up the last climb. I've previously skipped it on the theory that if I stop I'll never get started again. I may have to rethink that one this year...

Have fun!


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

JimF22003 said:


> I've done MoM twice, and am doing it again this year (god help me...)
> 
> You can get into some pretty decent pacelines on the first half of the ride if you want to. There's actually a quite long slightly downhill stretch that you can really motor on if you want.
> 
> ...


Mmmmmm baked potatoes! I like the sound of that.

I just realized yesterday that I've been mistaken all this time about the direction the loop from Newport to New Castle went (I thought it was cw, not ccw.) as well as the direction of the loop up into Clover Hollow. I think think both are actually good news for me.

Good luck with the ride. I'll be the one towards the back on the bike that looks like I meant to show up for a tweed ride.


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## durielk (Jan 8, 2011)

Why all the stuff, get rid of the rack. If you need a jacket, wear it, if you don't need it leave it in the truck. You will be a lot faster in a group. You will be a lot faster if you don't stop at the cookie stops, you can never make up time when you take 20 minutes to piss & eat. If your looking for overall time, do not stop. Just carry 1 bottle of accelorate or something, mixed for the time you will be riding & one camelback with 8 oz of water for each hour you will be riding. Take a sip from the calorie bottle every 30 min, take a sip of water every 15 minutes.


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## kapusta (Apr 26, 2004)

durielk said:


> Why all the stuff, get rid of the rack. If you need a jacket, wear it, if you don't need it leave it in the truck. You will be a lot faster in a group. You will be a lot faster if you don't stop at the cookie stops, you can never make up time when you take 20 minutes to piss & eat. If your looking for overall time, do not stop. Just carry 1 bottle of accelorate or something, mixed for the time you will be riding & one camelback with 8 oz of water for each hour you will be riding. Take a sip from the calorie bottle every 30 min, take a sip of water every 15 minutes.


As far the jacket and other layers, it has often been in the 30's when I leave, and in the 70's when I finish. So I am not leaving in just short sleeves and shorts in the morning, and I am not riding with a jacket, outer layer on my legs, skullcap, thicker gloves at the end of the ride.

The rest is food. And I eat it all. I know from years of day-long mountain bike rides that I need to eat a lot, and what I like to eat.

All kind of moot, though, as I am not carrying this stuff (or the rack) for the event itself. I'll just have a water bottle and a small saddle bag. Maybe a 2nd bottle with a sports drink.


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## iamcyclingforfun (Apr 25, 2011)

I haven't yet done a century, however, in my experience with hiking in groups, and the shorter cycling rides, solo tends to be faster, however, it often *feels* longer.

Good luck with your ride!


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