# Bike Pure removes Froome from its website ahead of Tour



## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Interesting article regarding Froome:

Bike Pure removes Froome from its website ahead of Tour


Several members here have made the point countless times: "You riders say your clean; then show us the numbers!" That's what the organization is asking.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Does Purebike suffer from unwarranted self importance?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> Does Purebike suffer from unwarranted self importance?



What do you mean?


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## champamoore (Jul 30, 2012)

If the entire field isn't posting their numbers, why should a favorite? That is highly valuable information for rivals in pursuit of the GC.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

champamoore said:


> That is highly valuable information for rivals in pursuit of the GC.


How? At this point the fitness is there or it isn't. Knowing what w/kg froome is doing as he rides away from you or vice versa isn't going to change how your legs work.


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## ph0enix (Aug 12, 2009)

kbiker3111 said:


> How? At this point the fitness is there or it isn't. Knowing what w/kg froome is doing as he rides away from you or vice versa isn't going to change how your legs work.


Probably right. He's already the favorite and by that, a marked man in the peloton. Don't think his numbers would give anything away.
On the other hand, worrying about compliance with Bike Pure's policy a few days before his big tour is probably the last thing on Froome's mind.


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

Local Hero said:


> Does Purebike suffer from unwarranted self importance?


I agree that this is what it seems like. I had never heard of them before - nothing like calling out the big favorite and manufacturing some supposed controversy right before the TdF starts as a cry for attention.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Would a NASCAR team divulge its dyno numbers to the public the days before the Indy 500?

Would an NFL team divulge detailed info to the public on the health of the QB days before the Super Bowl?

Why should a cyclist divulge his performance data to the public days before the Tour?


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

They found a technicality to avoid a possible PR hit down the road. 

Btw, shouldn't "miraculous" be after "mutant"?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

cda 455 said:


> What do you mean?


Unwarranted Self Importance, or USI, is popculture/internet speak used to describe an individual or group who overestimates their status or weight. 

My question is this: When did Bike Pure become a governing body in international cycling and how much do they charge for hats, T-shirts and wrist bands? 



champamoore said:


> If the entire field isn't posting their numbers, why should a favorite? That is highly valuable information for rivals in pursuit of the GC.


In their defense, they said they would be happy to take the numbers *after* the event.

Still, it will open Froome to unecessary scrutiny and criticism. 



kbiker3111 said:


> How? At this point the fitness is there or it isn't. Knowing what w/kg froome is doing as he rides away from you or vice versa isn't going to change how your legs work.


NO. 

Knowing your opponents' power can change how you race against them. 

For example, if one knows an opponent can sustain X power up a climb, it will change the tempo their team sets running them down.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

RkFast said:


> Would a NASCAR team divulge its dyno numbers to the public the days before the Indy 500?
> 
> Would an NFL team divulge detailed info to the public on the health of the QB days before the Super Bowl?
> 
> Why should a cyclist divulge his performance data to the public days before the Tour?


You're not from the U.S.; are you?


NASCAR doesn't race in the Indy 500.

By NFL rules, teams can not keep secret the health of a player for any reasons. They must be reported directly to the NFL. Injury reports are then made public on a weekly basis during the season.


I was expecting your fourth point to be: 'Did the U.S. give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?! NO!!'


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

cda 455 said:


> NASCAR doesn't race in the Indy 500.


Depends on whether you consider the Brickyard 400 to be "in the Indy 500" whatever that means. Who cares anyways, RkFast's point seems valid to me.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> NO.
> 
> Knowing your opponents' power can change how you race against them.
> 
> For example, if one knows an opponent can sustain X power up a climb, it will change the tempo their team sets running them down.


I guess I don't see it this way. If Sky had known Nibali's 5/20/60 min mmp in this years Giro, would it have changed the way they raced the Giro? If Astana had known Wiggins power would he have dropped out faster? 

I guess I can understand not publishing daily numbers until after a GT is over, but publishing pre tour tests and numbers after the race is over seems innocuous. The real reason not to deal with actual power numbers seems to be validating calibration of the PM used. Its easy enough to change to offset of your SRM/whatever and give a lower/higher number than reality.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Kristatos said:


> Depends on whether you consider the Brickyard 400 to be "in the Indy 500" whatever that means. Who cares anyways, RkFast's point seems valid to me.


The Brickyard 400 is the Brickyard 400 and Indy 500 is the Indy 500. Two completely different races.


Despite his absolute failed analogy attempt, I too, was able to see his point as well. Whether it's valid is a different issue  .


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Yes, its DAYTONA 500. Im more of an NHRA fan, myself. Although after Scott Kalitta got killed in Englishtown, I felt the move to reduce the track length to 1,000 feet was rash.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

kbiker3111 said:


> I guess I don't see it this way. If Sky had known Nibali's 5/20/60 min mmp in this years Giro, would it have changed the way they raced the Giro? If Astana had known Wiggins power would he have dropped out faster?
> 
> I guess I can understand not publishing daily numbers until after a GT is over, but publishing pre tour tests and numbers after the race is over seems innocuous


Would you like to know your opponents' power numbers? 

Let's put away GC and think back to the time when the HTC train would run down a break and give Cavendish the perfect leadout. They had it down to a science...almost! 

There were times when the breakaway stayed away. Would knowing the power numbers of all of the riders in the break play into the tactics of running them down? 


A related issue is this: There are complaints about race radios and how they make races less exciting. There are complaints about team Sky and how their tactics make races less exciting. If everyone knew everyone else's power, would that make races more or less exciting? 



> The real reason not to deal with actual power numbers seems to be validating calibration of the PM used. Its easy enough to change to offset of your SRM/whatever and give a lower/higher number than reality.


I've brought this up in the past. If athletes are using countermeasures to defeat doping tests there is no reason to think their power numbers the athletes give Bike Pure (or whatever) will be 100% accurate. If they employ physicians to help them around medical tests, why not employ an IT guy to doctor the SRM numbers? 

Let's not fool ourselves into believing that releasing the power numbers is going to solve the doping problem.



On the other hand, I think cycling as a while could modernize and become a little more exciting. I would like to see live gopro feeds from riders' bikes during races with dashboard data, RPM, current speed, power, etc. It would be great to see a helicopter view and then cut to the view from Sagan's handbars!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> On the other hand, I think cycling as a while could modernize and become a little more exciting. I would like to see live gopro feeds from riders' bikes during races with dashboard data, RPM, current speed, power, etc. It would be great to see a helicopter view and then cut to the view from Sagan's handbars!


As cool as that would be, I believe it's banned under the UCI rule of "no telemetry in race situations."


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Would you like to know your opponents' power numbers?


For the most part ... knowing your opponents power numbers before a race starts is more of a "Psych Out" game than anything because after the first hard climbing effort, if the others are not there, you have a better W/Kg than the others.

With that said ... you have no idea what the other riders recovery is like. They may get blown away on the first stage, but the rider that won it may have burned too many matches and fall off on the next days climb ... thus taking them out of overall contention.

It could make a difference in a riders mental preparation knowing they have lower or higher W/Kg than other riders ... beyond that I don't think it would make a difference in preparation or change tactics any since all teams go in with their own plan of attack.

It would be interesting to see power numbers live, RPM, HR, etc. and if they were all live, it would be much harder to cheat with power numbers. If one rider shows they are putting out 5.5 W/Kg and another shows 6 W/Kg but the one with lower W/Kg is pulling away from the other ... there is a good chance their numbers are not correct and something "Fishy" is going on. It's the open nature of having numbers for everybody that would make it harder to cheat.


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## misterwaterfallin (Sep 14, 2012)

Wookiebiker said:


> It could make a difference in a riders mental preparation knowing they have lower or higher W/Kg than other riders ... beyond that I don't think it would make a difference in preparation or change tactics any since all teams go in with their own plan of attack.
> 
> It would be interesting to see power numbers live, RPM, HR, etc. and if they were all live, it would be much harder to cheat with power numbers. If one rider shows they are putting out 5.5 W/Kg and another shows 6 W/Kg but the one with lower W/Kg is pulling away from the other ... there is a good chance their numbers are not correct and something "Fishy" is going on. It's the open nature of having numbers for everybody that would make it harder to cheat.


In that scenario there are a lot of factors going on as well. Rider size/weight, bike type, drafting effects, ect. I think it would just make things more confusing if we tried to point fingers using that type of information


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> As cool as that would be, I believe it's banned under the UCI rule of "no telemetry in race situations."


I had no idea.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

It's true, Pure Bike has over 1000 followers on twitter. But we should keep things in perspective. Justin Bieber has 41 million followers.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I think you tried to give me negative rep. 










But it came out as grey. 



Who were you before you got banned? Chris X?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Local Hero said:


> I had no idea.


Neither does the UCI...


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> As cool as that would be, I believe it's banned under the UCI rule of "no telemetry in race situations."


Seems like something that should be changed. I agree it would be cool and much more interesting.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

misterwaterfallin said:


> In that scenario there are a lot of factors going on as well. Rider size/weight, bike type, drafting effects, ect. I think it would just make things more confusing if we tried to point fingers using that type of information


How so?

The riders on climbing stages are going to use bikes at the UCI limit ... so no difference there. Clothing is going to be close enough that it's a wash, maybe a "Slight" aero advantage. Equipment has such a minimal effect "Overall" that it's almost a wash ... not everything the advertising departments tell us is true.

What's so hard about putting a rider on a scale before they head to the start line in full gear so when you combine it with bike weight ... you know their w/kg numbers?

And last but not least ... there is a pretty big difference between 5.5 w/kg and 6 w/kg. Rider size and weight isn't going to make a difference here, especially on a climb.

In the end ... it's the most effective way to look at rider performances, and with everybody sharing their data live, you can see those who may be changing the calibration of their Powermeters and those that are not ... as well as those giving "Super Human" performances or not.

It seems like a lot of people want doping out of the sport, but come up with every excuse they can to show why we can't trust power numbers and performances to show doping ... when it's the best method outside of them being videoed with a syringe in their butts.

If you want to make changes and get rid of doping ... all riders have to be open sharing their numbers, weigh in before races, show power numbers, get wind tunnel drag numbers (for TT power/speed), etc. Then keep drug testing and let things sort themselves out from there. People will still cheat, but it will become increasingly harder.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Does Purebike suffer from unwarranted self importance?


Sums it up.
Another group of folks trying to create their own jobs/income on the shoulders/coat tails of others.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Wookiebiker said:


> How so?
> 
> The riders on climbing stages are going to use bikes at the UCI limit ... so no difference there. Clothing is going to be close enough that it's a wash, maybe a "Slight" aero advantage. Equipment has such a minimal effect "Overall" that it's almost a wash ... not everything the advertising departments tell us is true.
> 
> ...



Excellent post!

People who think that by revealing your power numbers, it will somehow give your opponents an edge. This is not the case at all on many levels.

1) If your opponents know your power numbers, then you will also know theirs. (This is assuming your opponents also reveal their numbers, but even if you don't know their numbers, you can still make a very reasonable guess)

2) Even if you don't reveal your numbers, your numbers can still be guestimated within reasonable range that it would be meaningful to your potential opponents should they or their team wish to use those numbers, and they probably do.

3) Grand tours are won by time trials and on the climbs. In time trial, you go all out. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it if you are the weaker man. On an attack, again, if you are the weaker man, you will get dropped. Knowing that you can only produce 5.5 W/kg versus your opponent's 6.0 W/kg will only let you know that you will ultimately lose out by so and so seconds to the top of a climb. But you can't do anything about it. It gives you zero advantage.

Bottomline is a greater athlete (doping or clean) will tend to beat a lesser athlete regardless of the strategy of the later. Everyone knows how Usain Bolt runs, everyone knows how Michael Phelps swim, everyone knows how Michael Jordan plays, everyone knows Magic Johnson will run the ball and looking to throw an assits, everyone know Kareem Abdul Jabar will be looking to post and make his skyhook. Yet, no team nor coaches have been able to come up with an effective strategy to prevent these guys from winning championships. Conclusion is knowledge of your opponents' performance capability translates to almost zero advantage on the field if you don't already have it in you to beat them.

However, if we know everyone's power number, it would make pro cycling more open. If all top tour guys release their numbers, then it would give us a database of numbers from which we can reasonable make a guess if a particular guy's performance is suddenly looking suspicious (and therefore doping). Guys will still cheat, but now the public will have one more piece of information to indict them, at least in the court of public opinion.

Regarding Froome, I guess he joined the advocacy group when he was still clean and a midpacker. Now that is doped up and a favorite, he is less open about his numbers. But one would be naive not to think that his performance is not suspicious at the very minimum.

The peloton is cleaner now today then it ever has huh?? my ass. These fools are still doping just as hard as their predecessors.


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