# older crankset + 9-speed group



## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm trying to work out a parts swap and have gotten conflicting answers from two different LBS mechanics (at two different shops).

Looking to put a different crankset on one of my bikes. It's currently a Shimano 105 9-speed double 53/39 setup, but the arms are too long for me (175s when I prefer 170s - bought it used, came on the bike).

I have a Shimano 600 Arabesque double crankset in my parts bin. Would I have problems running this crankset with the 9-speed setup? And why? Are the pins & ramping going to be different for a 9-speed STI vs. older stuff?

Could I just use the current rings on these older crank arms (the 600s) and be fine?

I'm also checking out other used cranksets. Can I use a 6/7/8 speed crankset on this 9-speed group?

I'm confused as to why they would/would not work, so looking to get my bike set up properly and to learn a bit. Thanks.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Put the rings on the older crank.....no worries...


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Though mine isn't as dated as the Arabesque, I'm using 600EX arms with 6500 rings. Works fine.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I'm assuming the 105 9 speed is Octalink. The 600 is definitely square taper. Do you have an appropriate bb?


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## PSC (Mar 10, 2004)

Good article by Sheldon Brown on mixing different generations of components.

http://sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

The 105 9-speed is actually square taper BB.

How can I determine the number/vintage/line of rings? (as in 6500)

I'll check out Sheldon Brown.

One reason I like the older rings/arms is that they are usually polished/shiny silver as opposed to the slate grey that much of the 105 came in. A small thing, but I'd rather the silver, not the muted grey.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

This is from Sheldon:

Old Chainrings, New Chains
There is a lot of confusion about the compatibility of narrow 9- and 10-speed chains with older cranksets. Shimano says you should replace the inner chainring(s) with specially designated 9- or 10-speed ones, but then they're all too eager to sell you stuff, whether you need it or not.

These chainrings have the teeth slightly farther to the right than the older chainrings to work a little better with the narrower chains. There is no difference whatever in the crank spiders. 

The manufacturers also concerned about clueless users. The worst-case scenario is that you will be riding along with the bike in its highest gear (large front, small rear) and then for some bizarre reason shift down in front before downshifting in the back. (There is no shift pattern in which it is reasonable to shift in this sequence.) [Not with a 9- or 10-speed cassette, to be sure -- John Allen] If you do shift this way, there's a small chance that the chain might "skate" over the edges of the teeth for maybe half a turn. 

In practice this "problem" almost never materializes. Many, many cyclists are using 9- and 10-speed chains with older cranksets and having no problems whatever.

***I'd be using a new 9 speed chain with a 9 speed FD/RD. I'd like to use an older crank set, both rings/arms. Rings look like they would be the only part causing a problem. But, seems that Sheldon says unless I'm in big/small and toss it to my inner ring, I should have a problem.

As he pointed out, this would be an odd shift and should be avoided anyway.

Seems to me I can grab a 7 or 8 speed crankset and use it with the original rings on my 9-speed setup. If it isn't shifting well or acting oddly I suppose I could put my newer rings on it. But, that likely isn't going to happen.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

The big ring on 9-10 spd system has ramps that will pick-up the chain on the upshift. The 6-7 spd big rings do not have this and a 9-10 chain does not catch easily. 6-7 spd chains have a long connecting pin, this helps for that era of set-up. With the 9-10 spd chains they have flush pins/smooth, the ramps are necessary to provide consistent big ring shifting. 

I'd used the 6-7spd big ring but invariably I could tell a big difference from the 6600 10 spd Ultegra bike and the bike using the older crankset. The 6500 (9 spd Ultegra) chainrings remedied that.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for that info, Kuma.

So is the big split between the 9/10 and the 6/7 systems?

Would Shimano 105 8-speed rings work?


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

I've not run 8spd so I don't know if the big ring has the shift ramps built into it. If it does, it should shift. These are the shift ramps on a big ring. This is on a 6500 series 9 spd Ultegra crank. These regularly turn up on that auction site in a range of conditions from $35-$65 when I was buying them. Since the cost is quite low, I tended to buy them for the chainrings. Then I sold of the arms for ~$15-20. 

105 works too but the rings aren't as nice and the Dura Ace are quite nice. Da is more $$ where Ultegra hits middle ground.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the info and photo, Kuma,

I thought I had it sorted - I'd look for an Ultegra 9 speed crankset and one turned up on ebay. Now there is a new issue - currently using a square taper BB and a lot of the 9 speed Ultegras used octalink. 

Darnit. I might just look for some arms that I like and use the rings I have.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Kuma601 said:


> The big ring on 9-10 spd system has ramps that will pick-up the chain on the upshift. The 6-7 spd big rings do not have this and a 9-10 chain does not catch easily. 6-7 spd chains have a long connecting pin, this helps for that era of set-up. With the 9-10 spd chains they have flush pins/smooth, the ramps are necessary to provide consistent big ring shifting.
> 
> I'd used the 6-7spd big ring but invariably I could tell a big difference from the 6600 10 spd Ultegra bike and the bike using the older crankset. The 6500 (9 spd Ultegra) chainrings remedied that.


This sounds logical enough but my first venture into 9 speed was a 9 speed upgrade to my old bike. I used to have a 7 speed Trek 1400 that I upgraded to 9 speed. The only things I changed were the wheelset, shifters, cassette chain and rear derailleur. The 9 speed chain never gave me an issue working with the 7 speed crankset. The shop that did the work even told me that I wouldn't have any issues.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

6/7/8 speed spacing vs. 9/10 spacing is determined by the inner ring (it is a small difference). The ramps are attached to the outer ring. 8 speed Shimano was square taper and had lifter ramps on the outer chainring. 9 speed Shimano changed the spacing with an offset inner ring that was compatible with previous cranks, and was the introduction of Octalink. I didn't think there were any square taper 9 speed 105s, but maybe there was "trickle down" delay.

If you have a nice crank that is compatible with your current BB, mount it and buy new chainrings for it, or use the ones off the other crank. Or just put up with slower shifts. STI was introduced before chainring ramps.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the info, rx-79g. Good to know that 9-speed for Shimano meant a move to Octalink.

I do have a nice older 600 Arabesque crankset.

It is pretty old so I'm guessing it was originally on a 6 or 7 speed. Are you saying I could use this crankset, with its original rings, on my 9-speed setup and be fine, minus slower shifts? This is my backup/rain/townie bike so slower shifts might not be a big deal. I could always give it a shot and see if it bothers me or not.

If it does I suppose I could pull the 9-speed 105 rings off the current crankset on the bike and mate them to the 600 arms. I'd rather not have to swap on the BB as well.

I don't know much about octalink but say I do go for an Ultegra 9-speed and need an octalink. I would be able to find an octalink BB that fits my BB shell, correct? I'm guessing without measuring that it is a 68mm and I do know its English threaded.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

nayr497 said:


> I would be able to find an octalink BB that fits my BB shell, correct? I'm guessing without measuring that it is a 68mm and I do know its English threaded.


Correct. Shimano still makes the solid 105 Octalink BBs, so these will be available for quite some time. Ultegra Octalink BBs in English are all gone, with a few showing up on eBay every so often. Dura-Ace Octalink BBs are still available, but they're expensive, need some adjustment when first installed and want some degree of regular maintenance. Octalink BBs are getting expensive now. Soon it might make more sense to just go external BB with the corresponding crank.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

wim said:


> Octalink BBs are getting expensive now. Soon it might make more sense to just go external BB with the corresponding crank.


Agree. For parts sake if you want to keep the bike going, either buy the vintage stuff up or go contemporary. I'm not one for used parts since it can be a crap shoot and NOS is $$. May not be period correct though if you want to ride the bike, you have to decide on the hunt or getting what you can easily. 

I've been looking for a 90's Athena threaded headset. I personally find it a beautiful HS over what is out now. The search and wait has been hard and with Record being readily available, I bought some to have on hand for future builds. Shimano Dura Ace...same hard search but I'm not constantly looking either. A PITA IME.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*+1.*



Kuma601 said:


> Agree. For parts sake if you want to keep the bike going, either buy the vintage stuff up or go contemporary.


Which brings to mind a third alternative: the ancient square taper, pronounced dead about 20 years ago, but refusing to die. You can get a brand-new serviceable BB for less than $20, and new cranks are available everywhere.


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