# Success with alloy wheels in Cat 4 or 5 road races?



## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

Anyone have good success stories from riding good alloy wheels in Cat 4 or 5 road races?

Did my first race last weekend - and would say maybe 50/50 on the breakdown of riders with carbon vs aluminum? I am new to racing and not ready for an expensive carbon set yet. I do not want to race and feel overmatched with equipment however.

Does anyone have good results with good alloy wheels? It would seem one should be able to do alright with good drafting abilities without carbon...?


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

there are LOTS of people getting great results riding alloy wheels. And not just Cat4-5's. 

It's all about the engine.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

They're nice, but you'll survive without them. When you're nicely tucked in the field, the aero advantage isn't nearly as dramatic. If you're solo, you're probably off the back and the aero benefits aren't exactly going to help much.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

seriously? go race your bike and don't worry about it. if your next race is your second race, you don't want carbon wheels yet. get some experience w/ pack riding and racing so you can lessen the chance of ruining them in one of your first few races. i've had a usa cycling license for almost 30yrs and there are still races that i'll use my alloy wheels for so i don't risk damaging the carbon wheels...and i race masters 1/2/3...


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

Your responses are really what I was hoping for...

My engine keeps getting a little lighter, and a little stronger... I've been at this for just under a year... but it still has a ways to go. I was a two sport, division 1 athlete in college... track and baseball. I cannot believe the quality of performance of many of the cat 5 racers.

As far as "go race your bike and dont worry about it"... I was on a stock, entry level carbon that was a couple weeks old. Wanted to see where I was at equipment wise to see what needed to be done there. WAY overmatched. Immediately upgraded the model to get 3 lbs lighter and stiffer. 1 mph gain overnight. Will lose another pound this week with Boyd Vitesse Clinchers.

Getting used to pack riding is "interesting"... but I am hooked. 

Thanks.


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

clones2 said:


> Immediately upgraded the model to get 3 lbs lighter and stiffer. 1 mph gain overnight. Will lose another pound this week with Boyd Vitesse Clinchers.


I can absolutely guarantee that the 3 pounds you lost off your bike have nothing to do with going 1mph faster. There are plenty of modeling tools on the internet that will show that given the same power, elevation profile, distance, atmospheric conditions, nutrition, rest, etc., 3 pounds *does not* equal 1mph.

Concentrating on all the things you can't buy will improve your performance more than losing another pound off your bike.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

"Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades."
- Eddy Merckx

(and if you don't know who Eddy is.... well go find out.)


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

I've bought all I can - its personal performance now.

For the 1 mph - I have a GPS app that tracks these rides including each mile lap times, avg and max speed etc.
Three previous rides within 1 week were all within 20 seconds of each other - I was trying to set a personal best each time.

The day after, and the next day after the last test with the first bike... I tried the new bike and both times were about a minute and a half faster. I can graph and compare each lap time for all 5 rides.

This is not a number I pulled out of thin air or guessed at.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

clones2 said:


> I've bought all I can - its personal performance now.
> 
> For the 1 mph - I have a GPS app that tracks these rides including each mile lap times, avg and max speed etc.
> Three previous rides within 1 week were all within 20 seconds of each other - I was trying to set a personal best each time.
> ...


Average speed only tells you so much. There may have been a difference, but were weather conditions the exact same? Did you bike with the exact same intensity?


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## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

FWIW I got third in my second crit ever on alloy clinchers. I'd be way more concerned about performing well in the race than trying to buy gear to do better. I know guys who could finish first easily (if they could cat down to 4 or 5) on any bike you put in front of them.

Also I echo the concerns of trashing nice wheels in beginner type races. I really don't think it's worth the expense for minimal gain.


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## Rhymenocerus (Jul 17, 2010)

Endurance sports take years to develop good muscles for, keep riding and the results will come.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Guod said:


> FWIW I got third in my second crit ever on alloy clinchers. I'd be way more concerned about performing well in the race than trying to buy gear to do better. I know guys who could finish first easily (if they could cat down to 4 or 5) on any bike you put in front of them.
> 
> Also I echo the concerns of trashing nice wheels in beginner type races. I really don't think it's worth the expense for minimal gain.


Crashing never really goes away.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

At least i got the first race anxiety out of the way. Didn't get as much pack riding time in as I had hoped however. haha. Started triathlons and duathlons last year so I've been getting some endurance training. I see those events as just hard workouts for cycling training now.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

With the exception of track every mass start race I ever won has been on alloy wheels. Most of my TT wins were using and old old second hand Tri spoke and a disc wheel cover on a coverted road frame. 

Equipment is nice and it does help a little but its totally not required, I still remember a guy in the cat fives kick all our asses on a old beater down tube shifter bike.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

I won plenty of CAT 4/5 races on a set of 32 spoke open pro wheels. It was all about the engine...not the bike.

To this point all my TT's have been on alloy rims (but deep carbon front and disc rear)...does that count?


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

clones2 said:


> This is not a number I pulled out of thin air or guessed at.





spade2you said:


> Average speed only tells you so much. There may have been a difference, but were weather conditions the exact same? Did you bike with the exact same intensity?


I didn't accuse you of pulling a number out of the air. All I said was the non-controversial easily backed up by physics assertion that the 3lb difference in bike weight was not the reason for your increase of 1mph.

There are so many factors that can change your average speed over a course it's not even funny.

Placebo effect and/or less drag (are the wheels different? are you lower on the bike?) would be where I would look first.


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## clones2 (Jun 26, 2012)

Im not in TOTAL disagreement with you... They are different wheels and tires...which are 1.5 lbs less. Not sure how much that lower rolling resistance helps.

I can say in the previous 20 rides I have used my GPS App - many times on the same loop, I was never over 18.6 mph... Now all of a sudden I'm pushing 19.5 mph. And still working on minor fit adjustments.

My leg muscles are looking a little bigger these days though. ;-)


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

Rear powertap wheel with open pro rim (alloy), and year 2001 Rolf Sestriere (alloy) is what I run in Masters 1-2-3 races. 

I have a set of Bontrager Aelous Carbon Tubulars and I've been trying to sell them. I really don't feel the advantage of them for *variable speed* racing. It seems i always race better with the training setup.


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

clones2 said:


> Im not in TOTAL disagreement with you... They are different wheels and tires...which are 1.5 lbs less. Not sure how much that lower rolling resistance helps.
> 
> I can say in the previous 20 rides I have used my GPS App - many times on the same loop, I was never over 18.6 mph... Now all of a sudden I'm pushing 19.5 mph. And still working on minor fit adjustments.
> 
> My leg muscles are looking a little bigger these days though. ;-)


http://bikecalculator.com/

Watts: 300
Rider weight: 170
Bike weight: 19
Drops
0% grade
Speed = 24.78mph

Change that to a 16 pound bike and the speed changes to 24.80mph.

Even if you change the grade to 5% where gravity starts meaning something (see this post), it only goes from 12.36 to 12.51 mph.

So there is probably about .85 to .98 mph that you need to attribute to something other than bike weight.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

I used to think it was crazy that so many lower-category racers in the SF bay area were on very expensive bikes and wheels, but then I noticed that the equipment was just as nice in the juniors races and that made my head hurt so much that I stopped thinking about it. I'm off to race a crit on alloy rims and (gasp!) training tires.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Just an FYI, I built up a 1.5kg wheelset using kinlin rims, BHS hubs and butted spokes for <$250. I train and race on these wheels, and they work fine. They are as light as any $2000 carbon wheelset, and in the lower categories, if you are staying away with a solo attack, it aint the wheel's aero profile responsible...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

wtfbbq said:


> Bike Calculator
> 
> Watts: 300
> Rider weight: 170
> ...


GPS isn't the most accurate way to measure speed.


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## wblas3271 (May 12, 2012)

For Cat 5 races I suggest an aluminum bike with cheapish alloy wheels. It's not a question IF you will crash ( or be crashed), it's a matter of WHEN.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

There are always loads of riders in the 3/4 races in the UK with Enve/Zipp/Boras and aero bikes. They also often have Rapha or pro team kit.

They dont win, of course. Else they would be racing E/1/2.


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## simonaway427 (Jul 12, 2010)

3 races so far this year, 3 podiums - 2 road races and a crit. All on aluminum clinchers with mismatched tires and a few round replacement spokes amongst the stock aero spokes 

On an aluminum bike.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I really really doubt that carbon wheels are going to take a pack fodder cat 5 rider and make him a champion. Matter of fact I would recommend not using expensive wheels for racing at all, unless you can afford to replace them when you crash.


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Don't drink the coolaid. Bikes, wheels, etc.... don't win Road Races and Crits. being in the right place at the right time and the engine you have is all its about. Lance had it right when he said, "It not about the Bike".


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

JustTooBig said:


> there are LOTS of people getting great results riding alloy wheels. And not just Cat4-5's.
> 
> It's all about the engine.


Cat 5 in a 4/5 weekly "training" race (averaging 23-26 for 1hr+)

I've grabbed a first place, from a two man break with my 7850 SLs on my '05 Allez.
And just this past Tuesday I took 3rd from a three man break.

Definitely all about the engine. :thumbsup:


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

clones2 said:


> Anyone have good success stories from riding good alloy wheels in Cat 4 or 5 road races?


I rode alloy wheels through both categories and won races in both. 

It has much more to do with your legs and heart than carbon. 


If you're going to go with carbon, go big or go home. Don't half a_ss_ it with a $1000 set or a used set. The wrong set will be heavy or flexy, when you could have picked up something lighter and stiffer in alloy. You'll spend time in the future thinking that you could have been just a little faster if you got the wheelset you_ really_ wanted. Until you're ready to drop $2000+ stick with high end alloy. And you probably shouldn't spend $2000 on wheels until you're Cat 3 anyway...


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

On second thought, buy the expensive wheels. They may not make you faster, but they'll make you feel better. 

And if you (and all other Cat 4/5 riders out there) buy carbon, it's going to drive the market and make things cheaper for me in the future. 

Thanks


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Cautiously, I recommend avoiding the China carbon wheels. I don't want to be riding on something with unknown reliability. If you've ever hit 60mph in a pack or ever been in a bunch sprint, now isn't the time to wonder how reliable your equipment is.


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