# I guess Contador is the Renegade now



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*VeloNews video: Armstrong says Contador attack was unplanned*

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/...-armstrong-says-contador-attack-was-unplanned


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> *VeloNews video: Armstrong says Contador attack was unplanned*
> 
> http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/...-armstrong-says-contador-attack-was-unplanned


Levi said that, too. That's shady to me, but Contador did what he needed to do.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Contador did do what he had to. If he wants to be the leader of Astana, and take the reign from LA, he has to assert himself, if not by personality then on the bike.


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## Miiles (Oct 25, 2008)

I thought that the reporter and Lance after the stage on Versus might have been hinting at that. I am disappointed, Lance has a right to be pissed off.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Said this over on another thread, but anybody else think that Bert played right into Lance's hand by burning a couple matches on the first mountain stage?


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Miiles said:


> I thought that the reporter and Lance after the stage on Versus might have been hinting at that. I am disappointed, Lance has a right to be pissed off.


I think if anyone should be pissed, it should be AC for proving to be the best GC rider in the world over the past two years, only to have your team appear to turn on him.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

jorgy said:


> Said this over on another thread, but anybody else think that Bert played right into Lance's hand by burning a couple matches on the first mountain stage?


Maybe.. But he's still a young'un. Probably better said as that Lance new better than to burn what he had at this moment. If you assume that Lance was racing Conti, he did the right thing by himself: Stay in range and conserve energy. If he's supporting Alberto he did the right thing by the team: Cover the rear and conserve energy if help is needed (or for later deliveries.) 

Conti's move may not have been stupid, but it wasn't necessary for anything other than his fragile ego. That can be a dangerous way to make decisions on the road. 

But really, speculation is kinda silly. There's little detriment to the team or to either rider for there not to be a declared leader - at least externally. Even internally, it doesn't matter in quite the same way as in the Lemond / Hinualt days - the dynamic is quite a bit different.


Interesting side note: Reading the article helps. LA says the attack wasn't part of the plan, but that he (LA) followed the plan to the letter by covering. Uhhh, unless the attack was part of the plan, covering couldn't be, either....


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Funny. So what was the plan Tex? Ride like a bunch of donkeys and shut the whole race down?

Sometimes, you have to attack. I'm unsure what the plan was if it doesn't have the word 'attack' in it, as well as 'put rival teams under pressure'. 

It is good that he covered counter-attacks after, it is the proper thing for a teammate to do.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Miiles said:


> I thought that the reporter and Lance after the stage on Versus might have been hinting at that. I am disappointed, Lance has a right to be pissed off.



Nonsense... LA has no more reason to be pissed of than AC had to be pissed off at him when he was racing smart in the crossing headwinds in stage 3.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

danl1 said:


> Interesting side note: Reading the article helps. LA says the attack wasn't part of the plan, but that he (LA) followed the plan to the letter by covering. Uhhh, unless the attack was part of the plan, covering couldn't be, either....


Agree, the plan develops. It is a race, time must be taken at every opportunity.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

jorgy said:


> Said this over on another thread, but anybody else think that Bert played right into Lance's hand by burning a couple matches on the first mountain stage?



He should have attacked earlier for more time.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

There are only 3 mountain top finishes in this tour. Mt. top stages are where AC shines. He has to go for all three. It will be very hard to gain much time on the other mt. stages. They all finish downhill. AC can maybe drop some climbing, but they should be able to regroup some on the way down.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

jd3 said:


> There are only 3 mountain top finishes in this tour. Mt. top stages are where AC shines. He has to go for all three. It will be very hard to gain much time on the other mt. stages. They all finish downhill. AC can maybe drop some climbing, but they should be able to regroup some on the way down.



Based on what we saw today AC probably only _had_ 2 mountain top finishes to take advantage of.


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

5 uphill finishes in the entire tour, possibly the best climber in the world, growing threats from every direction, what exactly would you do if you were there and had the talent? I would have attacked them earlier but he knows what he is doing and doesnt need my help. I dont care what country you are from, I want the best racer to win the tour and I think he will.

edit, 3 uphill finishes


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

gh1 said:


> 5 uphill finishes in the entire tour, possibly the best climber in the world, growing threats from every direction, what exactly would you do if you were there and had the talent? I would have attacked them earlier but *he knows what he is doing* and doesnt need my help. I dont care what country you are from, I want the best racer to win the tour and I think he will.
> 
> edit, 3 uphill finishes


Did he know what he was doing in Paris-Nice too?


He makes stupid, rash decisions. I'm not faulting him for this, because he's young, but he really NEEDS the director yelling in his ear. He hasn't yet fully figured out all the nuances of the Tour.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

rocco said:


> He should have attacked earlier for more time.


Had he attacked earlier, he would have been brought back in. He had a good 30+ second jump on the chase pack...but they brought that back to 18 seconds or so by the end. If anything he jumped too soon to put a good gap on the pack and wore himself out a bit near the top of the climb.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> Did he know what he was doing in Paris-Nice too?
> 
> 
> He makes stupid, rash decisions. I'm not faulting him for this, because he's young, but he really NEEDS the director yelling in his ear. He hasn't yet fully figured out all the nuances of the Tour.


Has he or has he not won all three grand tours in the past 2 years?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Very interesting.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Pablo said:


> Has he or has he not won all three grand tours in the past 2 years?


Gifted the 07 tour by the withdrawl of Chicken.
Small margin of victory in 08 Giro.
Small margin of victory in 08 Vuelta (to his own teammate.)

Dropped near sure victory in Paris Nice. Could (would) not work for the win in Dauphine.

This Tour is remarkably similar to the Vuelta in which Levi got too close for comfort, and you know what he had to say about that situation. He's terrified that anyone is close to him, and that alone will cause him to make mistakes.

Don't kid yourself. Lance and Johan are blood buddies, and AC is the red-headed step child caught in the middle.

AC does not win this Tour. Lance doesn't either. While those two futz around with each other, someone sneaks out and hoses the entire field.


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## fullthrottle (Oct 26, 2003)

*Contador messed with someone out of his league*

Contador is messing with fire. Bruyneel should ask him what were his intentions and Armstrong will now take him to School in every way. The only way to win the TDF is with a great Team not riding Solo. Contador messed with the someone out of his league and let Armstrong show him.

Go Lance.......


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> AC does not win this Tour. Lance doesn't either. While those two futz around with each other, someone sneaks out and hoses the entire field.


You make fine points, but AC has won three grand tours, which is what matters and he's now older (and still very young), wiser, and probably stronger. Meanwhile, LA is getting older. I just find silly and absurd the tenor on these boards that AC is an ignorant little child while Lance is the ultimate wise mastermid. Look at post #20, for example.

As for someone else winning, I ask, like who? I think it's more likely that AC and LA destroy the field in a battle for supremacy, a la Hinault and LeMond in '85.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

fullthrottle said:


> The only way to win the TDF is with a great Team not riding Solo.
> 
> 
> > Yup. Contador is taking the team back from Lance.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Pablo said:


> You make fine points, but AC has won three grand tours, which is what matters and he's now older (and still very young), wiser, and probably stronger. Meanwhile, LA is getting older. I just find silly and absurd the tenor on these boards that AC is an ignorant little child while Lance is the ultimate wise mastermid. Look at post #20, for example.
> 
> As for someone else winning, I ask, like who? I think it's more likely that AC and LA destroy the field in a battle for supremacy, a la Hinault and LeMond in '85.


I'm not saying AC is an ignorant little child and LA is a wise mastermind. Little mistakes like the split in the peloton in stage 3, and not being up front (as AC made such a mistake) will end up costing in the end. It takes a very astute rider to catch little nuances like that. I'm simply saying that AC doesn't necessarily have that skill yet, and still may miss opportunities, or burn matches unnecessarily.

I would NOT be surprised if one of the dark horses put in a huge ride, a la Periero, and snuck into the top slot.


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## Swish (Jul 31, 2004)

This is just what this stage needed, it seemed to bleed to death. Conti did what he had to do and does best, he was after all deemed team captain by JB himself. If Lance is as good as he once was he may take the yellow in a man to man duel with Conti.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Wookiebiker said:


> Had he attacked earlier, he would have been brought back in. He had a good 30+ second jump on the chase pack...but they brought that back to 18 seconds or so by the end. If anything he jumped too soon to put a good gap on the pack and wore himself out a bit near the top of the climb.



He did seem to fade a bit at the end. Good points.


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## WAZCO (Sep 16, 2004)

Wookiebiker said:


> Had he attacked earlier, he would have been brought back in. He had a good 30+ second jump on the chase pack...QUOTE]
> 
> Where did you get this info? I wasn't aware he gained that much time and was getting reeled in? I didn't hear it on Versus. Were you following it somewhere that stated that?


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

I dunno, it sure looked to me like AC kinda 'pipped' Armstrong after sitting on him "all day"..That can't be very well received by the rest of the Astana boys...They were there too and got a chance to see. Seemed a bit shabby to me to stay right close to your teammate and let him work,him knowing you are right on his wheel and then slip back quietly and get room, so you can blast by in a surprise attack for a good enough gap to make him look bad if he chased...

Good way to make sure that 'everybody is buddy buddy" no longer on Astana..Probably bad for Astana, too....now even his own team will be looking out for another unexpected ? move by AC...If he lags back again to make another attack...maybe he won't be allowed the same luxury. I think he lost some trust from his guys...Oh, what do I know?

Does that saying "Don't take it personal, it's just business" apply to racing against your own teamates?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

WAZCO said:


> Had he attacked earlier, he would have been brought back in. He had a good 30+ second jump on the chase pack...QUOTE]
> 
> Where did you get this info? I wasn't aware he gained that much time and was getting reeled in? I didn't hear it on Versus. Were you following it somewhere that stated that?


Based on his net gain at the end, that he seemed to fade at the end and the small surges when Schleck and Wiggins attacked that eroded away at his max advantage 30+ seconds doesn't seem far fetched.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Gnarly 928 said:


> I dunno, it sure looked to me like AC kinda 'pipped' Armstrong after sitting on him "all day"..Seemed a bit shabby to me to stay right close to your teammate and let him work,him knowing you are right on his wheel and then slip back quietly and get room, so you can blast by in a surprise attack for a good enough gap to make him look bad if he chased...


How can the designated team leader (according to the DS J.B.) possibly "pip" a teammate? That's the entire purpose of having a team support a designated leader. Sheesh...


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

If AC hadn't attacked this stage would have been really boring. Maybe that was Astana's/LA's plan - bore us all to death by just grinding it out to the finish.
My idea of hell - Armstrong and Co covering each move for 3 weeks. 
Thank goodness that AC has injected some spontaneous combustion into the mix. At the end of the day the TdF is a race and now (whoever wins) we've got one.


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## identifiler (Dec 24, 2005)

I don't see a problem, Conti moved up above the boss as should be but did not put his teammates in jeopardy by getting the yellow jersey too early. It's all rosy. Why should he wait, he was so twichy on that ascent, just holding back behind a huffing LA.

Can't say the team tactivs are purely good for Conti, so he knows. It was add to see how shamefull he looked 5 second before attacking.

I will say this finish was perfect for Conti, and holding him on this was almost against his grain in favor of LA, not fair...


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## tri-ac (Aug 4, 2008)

rocco said:


> Nonsense... LA has no more reason to be pissed of than AC had to be pissed off at him when he was racing smart in the crossing headwinds in stage 3.


+1, this


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Contador did the right thing. He had the legs for a last minute attack so went for it. No reason not to. Andy Schleck was in that tempo pack and is still very dangerous, everyone had to know that. Gotta put your time in when you can.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

What would the Lance of 1999-2005 have done *on the Mountain* if a teammate attacked him like Contador doid today? How different would his response have been then compared to now?

I think that answer speaks volumes about LA's relative capabilities.

len


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

How about a totally different view -- that they both played it perfectly? AC attacked, LA covered. Next time send LA up the road and AC covers... and vice versa. If LA and AC can work together, this could be a really fun tour to watch, seeing teammates destroy the field.

Of course that assumes that they can be selfless and ride for the team. Dunno whether that's in either of them....


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

Len J said:


> I think that answer speaks volumes about LA's relative capabilities.
> 
> len


But watching a "mere mortal" LA race is what's so fun about this tour. He obviously has the ability to hang, and he's a cagey cat who doesn't show his cards till he has to. Letting a teammate go up the road at a point where there was very little time to be gained... doesn't hurt Lance much, but it makes the rest of the field paranoid about the dual Conty/LA threat. 

I'm lovin' it.


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## rensho (Aug 5, 2003)

Wookiebiker said:


> Had he attacked earlier, he would have been brought back in. He had a good 30+ second jump on the chase pack...but they brought that back to 18 seconds or so by the end. If anything he jumped too soon to put a good gap on the pack and wore himself out a bit near the top of the climb.


Or he was asked by JB to back off as to not take the frickin yellow jersey. You know how much JB hates having the yellow this early in the race...


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

jorgy said:


> Said this over on another thread, but anybody else think that Bert played right into Lance's hand by burning a couple matches on the first mountain stage?


No, it was only a couple of K's to the top from where he accelerated.. 

If he didn't attack, LA just solidifies his position.

It's not so bad burning matches if you have something to show for it, and I'm not so sure he did anyway.

Tomorrow is not a mountaintop finish and neither is Sunday. Tomorrows finish is more than 40k from the final summit and Sunday's is more than 60k. Monday is a rest day.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Pablo said:


> You make fine points, but AC has won three grand tours, which is what matters and he's now older (and still very young), wiser, and probably stronger. Meanwhile, LA is getting older. I just find silly and absurd the tenor on these boards that AC is an ignorant little child while Lance is the ultimate wise mastermid. Look at post #20, for example.
> 
> As for someone else winning, I ask, like who? I think it's more likely that AC and LA destroy the field in a battle for supremacy, a la Hinault and LeMond in '85.


What fine points does he make? Also the post numbers change and what was post #20 is no longer post #20. The main point he made was that someone besides LA or AC is going to win and you swept that aside.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

I think it is important that AC didn't get the jersey (from Lance's standpoint) as once you have it, it has to be protected. I wonder if Lance will counter and try to get it before AC for simply keeping him from attacking and Lance having to cover. I don't know. I do think Lance is riding into form and I thought AC would have taken more time today. AC is definitely strong physically, but psychologically he may stumble along the way. I love July, this is good stuff!


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

burgrat said:


> I think it is important that AC didn't get the jersey (from Lance's standpoint) as once you have it, it has to be protected. I wonder if Lance will counter and try to get it before AC for simply keeping him from attacking and Lance having to cover. I don't know. I do think Lance is riding into form and I thought AC would have taken more time today. AC is definitely strong physically, but psychologically he may stumble along the way. I love July, this is good stuff!


Really?

LA had gotten the yellow a couple of times early in the race during his reign and gave it up. Why do they have to protect the jersey from someone who's not a GC threat and goes 10 minutes up the road?

If you let the right break go and someone unexpected grabs the jersey, their team is going to kill themselves to retain it and chase down breaks.

I don't see the big deal if Contador gets the jersey by a couple of seconds. You can't still ride the same race? Now if you feel you have to defend it till the end, that's a completely different story.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Gifted the 07 tour by the withdrawl of Chicken.
> Small margin of victory in 08 Giro.
> Small margin of victory in 08 Vuelta (to his own teammate.)
> .



So the answer is YES. Contador has won all 3 grand tours.


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## tjjm36m3 (Mar 4, 2008)

Whatever. I have never seen anyone climb and accelerate like Contador did today and at the same time showing no signs of trouble. I think he should have started his acceleration much sooner at the bottom rather than picking it up half way. Wish Lance and Levi would stop their bitatching.... just let the best man win.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Circlip said:


> How can the designated team leader (according to the DS J.B.) possibly "pip" a teammate? That's the entire purpose of having a team support a designated leader. Sheesh...


Exactly.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Gnarly 928 said:


> I dunno, it sure looked to me like AC kinda 'pipped' Armstrong after sitting on him "all day"..That can't be very well received by the rest of the Astana boys...They were there too and got a chance to see. Seemed a bit shabby to me to stay right close to your teammate and let him work,him knowing you are right on his wheel and then slip back quietly and get room, so you can blast by in a surprise attack for a good enough gap to make him look bad if he chased...
> 
> Good way to make sure that 'everybody is buddy buddy" no longer on Astana..Probably bad for Astana, too....now even his own team will be looking out for another unexpected ? move by AC...If he lags back again to make another attack...maybe he won't be allowed the same luxury. I think he lost some trust from his guys...Oh, what do I know?
> 
> Does that saying "Don't take it personal, it's just business" apply to racing against your own teamates?


So what you are saying is that LA is the ultimate SOB for sitting on team mates 7 years in a row and attacking the poor bastages on the last mountain. That is something I can buy.

Is everyone forgetting they are in Spain? Home of AC. Of course he is going to go for it on home soil.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

tjjm36m3 said:


> Whatever. I have never seen anyone climb and accelerate like Contador did today and at the same time showing no signs of trouble. I think he should have started his acceleration much sooner at the bottom rather than picking it up half way. Wish Lance and Levi would stop their bitatching.... just let the best man win.


 I dunno, AC did put on a big spurt.. but then the rest of those "hacks" got a lot of it back..Wahoo! He got away, put a few hundred meters on everyone by his surprise attack but it didn't grow, it shrank after the initial jump.

Also, I just watched the videos with Lance and Levi..They weren't *****ing at all. They were saying it straight. Levi said (paraphrase) pretty much..Well, it's Ok, it is Spain, so let the guy have his fun in front of the fans...

Let's see if AC can get away again tomorrow and lets see how he's impressed his team as the race goes on..


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## husonfirst (Jul 15, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Gifted the 07 tour by the withdrawl of Chicken.
> Small margin of victory in 08 Giro.
> Small margin of victory in 08 Vuelta (to his own teammate.)


Gifted? So all 100+ riders in the tour decided to pack it in and give Contador a gift? A win is a win in my book whether by eight seconds or eight minutes.


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## KenB (Jul 28, 2004)

shawndoggy said:


> How about a totally different view -- that they both played it perfectly? AC attacked, LA covered. Next time send LA up the road and AC covers... and vice versa. If LA and AC can work together, this could be a really fun tour to watch, seeing teammates destroy the field.
> 
> Of course that assumes that they can be selfless and ride for the team. Dunno whether that's in either of them....



Taking that a bit further... they go back and forth in a dead heat all the way into Paris and then, by gentleman's agreement, sprint at the end to see who takes #1 & #2.

I don't think that's going to happen but damn, that would be wicked cool to watch.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Gifted the 07 tour by the withdrawl of Chicken.
> Small margin of victory in 08 Giro.
> Small margin of victory in 08 Vuelta (to his own teammate.)
> 
> Dropped near sure victory in Paris Nice. Could (would) not work for the win in Dauphine.


The guy's track record in winning the GC at the vast majority of stage races he has entered over the past couple of years, whether a few days or 3 weeks, is a level of consistency unparalleled by any other rider currently in the peloton, bar none. If that makes him a ticking time bomb for failure, you and I are working by a different set of definitions.

Contador can win a GT with one week's notice after slumming around on the couch for a few weeks (i.e. '08 Giro), while some others need half a year to prep for a decent peak, and have middling to mediocre performances in some or all races leading up to that point. Contador's worst races are better than just about everyone else's best races.


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## klkees (Jul 6, 2009)

shawndoggy said:


> How about a totally different view -- that they both played it perfectly? AC attacked, LA covered. Next time send LA up the road and AC covers... and vice versa. If LA and AC can work together, this could be a really fun tour to watch, seeing teammates destroy the field.
> 
> Of course that assumes that they can be selfless and ride for the team. Dunno whether that's in either of them....



Its not.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Gnarly 928 said:


> I* dunno, AC did put on a big spurt.*. but then the rest of those "hacks" got a lot of it back..Wahoo! He got away, put a few hundred meters on everyone by his surprise attack but it didn't grow, it shrank after the initial jump. .



Historically his jumps are something else to see. I wonder how many freaking timed hill intervals he's done over the years in training. Gugh.

But...sustaining those jumps is tougher. That's why I think Ventoux could be veeery interesting indeed.

And am I the only one wondering what the purposed _glare_ at (Kloden I believe) from LA was all about after Cont jumped?


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

tjjm36m3 said:


> Whatever. * I have never seen anyone climb and accelerate like Contador did today and at the same time showing no signs of trouble*. I think he should have started his acceleration much sooner at the bottom rather than picking it up half way. Wish Lance and Levi would stop their bitatching.... just let the best man win.


Did you miss the tour 99 through 05?


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## klkees (Jul 6, 2009)

vetboy said:


> Did you miss the tour 99 through 05?



+1! LMAO


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

husonfirst said:


> Gifted? So all 100+ riders in the tour decided to pack it in and give Contador a gift? A win is a win in my book whether by eight seconds or eight minutes.


Damn right. A win is a win is a win is a win is a win is a win is a win....


is a win.


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## anthrax (May 31, 2006)

When it comes to racing Teams only go so far. At the end of the day racing is an individual sport. There is not a racer alive that would not do anything to grab the Brass Ring. 

That's just racing.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> *VeloNews video: Armstrong says Contador attack was unplanned*
> 
> http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/...-armstrong-says-contador-attack-was-unplanned


Lance quite often attacked when it "wasn't in the plan". He would attack when the opportunity to put more time into rivals presented itself. Contador attacked, and put time into his rivals. 
I'm glad Contador attacked and injected some excitement into the race. Astana's "plan" is to do more of the same, ride at the front, discourage any attacks, and put ME to sleep. To me, anything that disrupts this plan is a good thing. 
I will say I was impressed with Lance today. Before the final k's, he didn't look truly at ease. His face wasn't twisted into a grimace, but it was strained. I expected him to get dropped when Evans attacked. So it looks like he's in shape to follow attacks, but he still has to prove he can himself attack and sustain it. Contador's already proven this.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

I think Lance is riding for Contador. Why else would AC trail him during the entire stage? Nobody can touch AC in the hills. He will win the tour by minutes.


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## cheddarlove (Oct 17, 2005)

After Cadel attacked, Lance and Kloden went up to the front after reeling him back and took control of the bunch.
Then Lance rode up next to Kloden and said something. Kloden hesitated and then it looked like he said yeah.
After Cadel's team mate attacked, Kloden was pacing Lance, just like Lance used to have team mates do in years past.
I believe Lance had every intention of attacking, Contador saw what was beginning to unfold and took off.
Lance can't look bad in this. He has to play the proper team mate!
I've re-watched it a few times and Lance does not chase Contador, he stays with Cadel in third position.
I do believe Lance is pretty ticked off though!! Listening to the interview, he sounded jammed up. Frustrated. He's so damn strong! It's great to watch this for sure!!

There are two stages coming up where no radio's will be used. 10 and 13 I think. 13 is mountainous!
I think Lance has many friends in the bunch that are willing to help him. Hincapie for one. Willing to pass on info. that they hear through the grapevine.
This is not over yet by a long shot! My feelings on it are that even if Lance loses, and I'm sure he will at least podium, his comeback will not have been a failure for him or for us!
I haven't been this into a Tour since 2006!


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## tjjm36m3 (Mar 4, 2008)

vetboy said:


> Did you miss the tour 99 through 05?


yes, what about it?


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## lancezneighbor (May 4, 2002)

Pablo said:


> You make fine points, but AC has won three grand tours, which is what matters and he's now older (and still very young), wiser, and probably stronger. Meanwhile, LA is getting older. I just find silly and absurd the tenor on these boards that AC is an ignorant little child while Lance is the ultimate wise mastermid. Look at post #20, for example.
> 
> As for someone else winning, I ask, like who? I think it's more likely that AC and LA destroy the field in a battle for supremacy, a la Hinault and LeMond in '85.


I agree that it is a definite battle between AC and LA. Barring weird things (maybe not so weird considering three weeks of racing) such as crashes etc the battle will go down to Ventoux. For pure power I think AC has Lance beat. A grand tour is not won by pure power though. If all stages were solo AC would win, with the group dynamics I believe Lance has a strong advantage. The big question is how much weaker than AC is Lance. If Lance is close then it is his to win. If AC is too strong then Lance's smarts will not matter. 

I don't think AC wasted too much energy today, he did what he probably thought he had to do. I do think this will be one of the more interesting TDFs since I began watching in 86.


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## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

fast ferd said:


> I think Lance is riding for Contador. Why else would AC trail him during the entire stage? Nobody can touch AC in the hills. He will win the tour by minutes.


Pretty doubtful. He may win but it's going to be very close.


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

Lance wins, he is now pissed off. the return of, "no gifts"

Alberto is an amazing child who has had the fortune to ride under Master Johan.

Yes, this is what I believe


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## somdoosh (Jul 21, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> AC does not win this Tour. Lance doesn't either. While those two futz around with each other, someone sneaks out and hoses the entire field.


Uh, who, exactly? Astana is currently 2, 3, 4, and 6, all under a minute behind the yellow jersey. 

For all intents and purposes, Astana IS the field, and the only people likely to sneak by Lance and Alberto are Levi and Andreas.

Barring the whole team getting kicked out for doping, this year's Tour is a race to see who's the best on Astana. The bright side is, the Green, White, and Polka-dot jerseys are all still anyone's ballgame!


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Gotta hand it to Contador. He pounded his fist on the Astana table and said this team is MINE!!!!


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

il sogno said:


> Gotta hand it to Contador. He pounded his fist on the Astana table and said this team is MINE!!!!


I like brash and bold which he is. And yes, he was both today. Just not so sure he should've picked today to lay down the gauntlet. But who knows?

I keep replaying in my mind however, that post race LA interview..."there'll be plenty of stages toward the end of the tour...when it will be... down to two guys..."

I believe that to be a bit of fist pounding on his part. :thumbsup: 

Should be interesting.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

The only thing in AC's favor is that Lance hasn't yet proved himself; he certainly isn't washed up, but we still don't know if the old (young) Lance is there. 

If they don't in-fight then we could see an all Astana podium. (Has one team ever done that?) If they do bicker, there might be two, but I doubt we'll see three.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

I am an American and a big fan of Armstrong's. But I'm not sure I can fault Contador here, and certainly I can empathize with him. If I was the best cyclist in the world, and very young like him, and signed with a team that recruited me as a team leader, I wouldn't be too happy to lose that clear team leader spot just because a former great came out of retirement. 

Now if it was a different race where the plan was to win with one of my teammates, while I got primed for the TDF, that is one thing. Or if another rider on the team had proven they were just flat out stronger, that is also a different scenario. But Armstrong has made a comeback and hasn't done anything yet before this Tour to show he is ready to compete for the win with the big guns when they are at peak form. Just a couple of months ago in the Giro he was getting dropped by the lead group on the big mountain stages. It wasn't that he couldn't stick with one or two guys who were in peak form, he was falling out of the lead pack and wasn't even there to try to go with the attacks when they started. 

Since Armstrong signed with a team with a clear leader already (Brunyeel as director or not), I think he ought to prove himself before being afforded the benefit of a team working for him at the expense of Contador. Isn't that the way it would happen with anyone else? You work for the team leader until you prove yourself stronger and capable of winning? 

P.S. I'm a long time member of the mtbr forum, but have been on the road bike a bunch these days so I'm having to accept the fact I'm at least a pseudo-roadie at this point.


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## rangerdavid (Jun 3, 2009)

i think i would be a little pissed if I'd pulled his ass all day and then he takes off like that. No teamwork there at all.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

FondriestFan said:


> So the answer is YES. Contador has won all 3 grand tours.


He won two. He was given the third. And none was won in convincing fashion.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Gnarly 928 said:


> now even his own team will be looking out for another unexpected ? move by AC...If he lags back again to make another attack...maybe he won't be allowed the same luxury. I think he lost some trust from his guys...Oh, what do I know?


The team won't trust one of their leaders because he decided to make a decisive move and now the team won't allow him that 'luxury'


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## mbcracken (Sep 18, 2006)

Is AC really the joker? 








Introducing a little anarchy?

I really don't follow road racing enough to make this a serious comment but to an arm chair warrior, AC seems to be a little bit on his own.

Cheers,
Mike


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

husonfirst said:


> Gifted? So all 100+ riders in the tour decided to pack it in and give Contador a gift? A win is a win in my book whether by eight seconds or eight minutes.


But he didn't win. The win came after the race therefore, *lost*.


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## Tumbleweed (Jun 6, 2005)

il sogno said:


> Gotta hand it to Contador. He pounded his fist on the Astana table and said this team is MINE!!!!


Incorrect. He pounded his fist on the Astana table and said este equipo es MINA!!!
Armstrong, Leipheimer, Kloden, and Popovych looked at each other in confusion, then let out a collective laugh.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*What are you new?*



rangerdavid said:


> i think i would be a little pissed if I'd pulled his ass all day and then he takes off like that. No teamwork there at all.


uh what you have described is called, er, um
BIKE RACING
or
Lance Armstrongs career 1999-2005

team LEADER sits on while support riders whittle away competition
team LEADER picks opportune moment to deliver the death blow


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I keep replaying in my mind however, that post race LA interview..."there'll be plenty of stages toward the end of the tour...when it will be... down to two guys..."
> 
> I believe that to be a bit of fist pounding on his part. :thumbsup:


Armstrong should be the first one to know that in bike racing the talking is done with the legs.

If he wanted to enter politics he should have run for TX Gov in 2010. It also would have given his cancer work a higher profile and more effectiveness than racing bikes.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

lookrider said:


> What fine points does he make? Also the post numbers change and what was post #20 is no longer post #20. The main point he made was that someone besides LA or AC is going to win and you swept that aside.


He made several points I agreed with, my don't you read his post. I don't need to restate them. On mine, #20 is still #20. I has not been renumbered. I don't think anyone else will win this year, which I did address in saying that LA and AC will probably ride away from the field.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> uh what you have described is called, er, um
> BIKE RACING
> or
> Lance Armstrongs career 1999-2005
> ...



I think there's a whole bunch of new here... must be Tour time again.


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## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

Has everyone forgotten Lance's little move when the Columbia boys split off the front of the peleton on that windy stage? Did the Astana team help Alberto to chase down that break? (I guess you don't chase down team-mates?) As far as I can tell Lance was encouraging his buddy George to do further damage to the rest of the field (and I'm assuming AC). Lance knew this was a good opportunity to get some time on his primary competitors.. and AC was presented with a similar opportunity to undo that deficit.. and he did. Might come back to bite him later in the TdF, it really does look like Lance's team.. but the old man will fade in the Alps, Alberto will accel.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

mikeyp123 said:


> Has everyone forgotten Lance's little move when the Columbia boys split off the front of the peleton on that windy stage? Did the Astana team help Alberto to chase down that break? (I guess you don't chase down team-mates?) As far as I can tell Lance was encouraging his buddy George to do further damage to the rest of the field (and I'm assuming AC). Lance knew this was a good opportunity to get some time on his primary competitors.. and AC was presented with a similar opportunity to undo that deficit.. and he did. Might come back to bite him later in the TdF, it really does look like Lance's team.. but the old man will fade in the Alps, Alberto will accel.


I don't think this is what happened. While it is certainly possible for Lance to broker a deal with George for them to press hard, the fact is that CHTC was already on the front pushing hard when the split happened. I believe that they were fed up with the other sprinters' teams not helping and so they decided to just push harder and basically give Cavendish the win.

Having said that, it was interesting to see Astana do much of the work in the days immediately following to chase down the breaks for the sprinters.


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## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

jsedlak said:


> I don't think this is what happened. While it is certainly possible for Lance to broker a deal with George for them to press hard, the fact is that CHTC was already on the front pushing hard when the split happened. I believe that they were fed up with the other sprinters' teams not helping and so they decided to just push harder and basically give Cavendish the win.
> 
> Having said that, it was interesting to see Astana do much of the work in the days immediately following to chase down the breaks for the sprinters.


I agree CHTC created the situation and I agree with what you said regarding their motivations.. my point was that it created a situation for LA to put some time on AC + others, and AC + others didn't get much help to avert that.. so AC took things in his own hands during that mountain stage, and undid it.. yes, from a team perspective it was a crappy move, but I don't think it was a dumb move.. on the other hand it was very well calculated. It kept LA out of yellow. I honestly think that was AC's primary motivation, if LA went yellow, that would've made LA the de facto leader of the team (and the whole VS network would've had a simultaneous orgasm).

Lance + Johan were probably massively pissed. You know there are 6 extra camera bikes following Lance around of a documentary being made by Sony. Imagine the sweet footage of Lance in yellow again... and maybe even another lame book deal on how to "livestrong" and be a winner.. blah, blah.


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## JJ_008 (Jan 20, 2009)

I think Astana has a plan and AC detoured off of it. Astana has 4 possible GC guys and I am sure each one thinks they have a shot. I think the plan is to do nothing until the other GC's do something. Then let the four guys loose and let them chase. This will weed out the weaker of the four and finally let the true GC contender come forward late in the tour. 

If AC was on any other team, we would be saying that was a great move. But with Astana's firepower, I am sure the other guys were not happy.

That's my theory.


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## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

Len J said:


> Happens every year...............
> 
> Len


And your point is.... 13,000 plus posts doesnt make anyone any better. It just means that I spend less time on my computer than you do.


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## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

Read this on Yahoo. Looks like JB is going let them fight it out. 

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_yl...lug=ro-tourdefrance071109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

g29er said:


> And your point is.... 13,000 plus posts doesnt make anyone any better. It just means that I spend less time on my computer than you do.


Point is every year a bunch of people that don't know anything about stage racing come on the site and spout all kinds of crap, their enthusiasm exceeds their knowledge....doesn't matter how many posts they or I have.......

It's all good.

len


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## LCFrecrider (Jan 4, 2006)

fast ferd said:


> I think Lance is riding for Contador. Why else would AC trail him during the entire stage? Nobody can touch AC in the hills. He will win the tour by minutes.


Yea, its clear LA is supporting AC. Like when the Columbia move was about to go down in the crosswinds, LA was on the radio alerting AC to get up front. Its great to have a seasoned vet who is ready to pass the torch with dignity to the rising star, being a great mentor, etc... LA is racing for cancer awareness anyway...

Right.

LA is for LA. The interesting thing to watch the rest of the tdf is how many astana guys LA can turn against AC.


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## adimiro (Jun 28, 2007)

LCFrecrider said:


> LA is racing for cancer awareness anyway...
> 
> Right.
> 
> LA is for LA. The interesting thing to watch the rest of the tdf is how many astana guys LA can turn against AC.




100% agree!! I could have rooted for LA and respected his return to racing if he had been more truthful and less of a hypocrite about his motives for returning to racing....It's all about him.


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## rodster (Jun 29, 2006)

Len J said:


> What would the Lance of 1999-2005 have done *on the Mountain* if a teammate attacked him like Contador doid today? How different would his response have been then compared to now?
> 
> I think that answer speaks volumes about LA's relative capabilities.
> 
> len


Wouldn't have happened because LA would have attacked far earlier and ridden everyone off his wheel.

It's a different world these days though. Other than Ricco last year, extraterrestrial peformances are a rarer sight these days in grand tours.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

g29er said:


> And your point is.... 13,000 plus posts doesnt make anyone any better. It just means that I spend less time on my computer than you do.


Len has been around these parts a long time, and a majority of those "13,000 plus posts" has been spent taking the time to help, encourage, and provide tempered wisdom and knowledge for a whole lot of very grateful people.

He's usually spot on and I've never seen him talk out of his @ss.

We kind of like him.


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## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Len has been around these parts a long time, and a majority of those "13,000 plus posts" has been spent taking the time to help, encourage, and provide tempered wisdom and knowledge for a whole lot of very grateful people.
> 
> He's usually spot on and I've never seen him talk out of his @ss.
> 
> We kind of like him.


Hey that's great! I appreciate you helping out your friend and all, and I am sure he is a great guy. But just because some of us just started posting does not mean we cant offer any insight. I love Le Tour just as much as you do and I have been watching it every year with my father since I was a kid. I find the tour this year to be compelling for obvious reasons, and it is interesting to read people's opinions about it. 

I think that qualifies me to post every now and then without the usual veteran forummer snobbery. I dont join alot of online forums for that very reason. Besides, I am either working or riding. 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I really should be going. I have some old guys on really expensive bikes to annihilate on the road.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

g29er said:


> Hey that's great! I appreciate you helping out your friend and all, and I am sure he is a great guy. But just because some of us just started posting does not mean we cant offer any insight. I love Le Tour just as much as you do and I have been watching it every year with my father since I was a kid. I find the tour this year to be compelling for obvious reasons, and it is interesting to read people's opinions about it.
> 
> I think that qualifies me to post every now and then without the usual veteran forummer snobbery. I dont join alot of online forums for that very reason. Besides, I am either working or riding.
> 
> Now, if you'll excuse me, I really should be going. *I have some old guys on really expensive bikes to annihilate on the road*.


Heee.  It's usually the old guys on an old P.O.S. wearing P.E. socks and a camel back that are cause for worry.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

g29er said:


> Hey that's great! I appreciate you helping out your friend and all, and I am sure he is a great guy. But just because some of us just started posting does not mean we cant offer any insight. I love Le Tour just as much as you do and I have been watching it every year with my father since I was a kid. I find the tour this year to be compelling for obvious reasons, and it is interesting to read people's opinions about it.
> 
> I think that qualifies me to post every now and then without the usual veteran forummer snobbery. I dont join alot of online forums for that very reason. Besides, I am either working or riding.
> 
> Now, if you'll excuse me, I really should be going. I have some old guys on really expensive bikes to annihilate on the road.


What makes you think I was talking about you?

A little sensitive it seems.

len


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## g29er (Mar 28, 2009)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Heee.  It's usually the old guys on an old P.O.S. wearing P.E. socks and a camel back that are cause for worry.


You,sir...are correct!


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## scarecrow (Oct 7, 2007)

It all makes for interesting discussion but I think it is a bit overhyped.

Fact 1. AC beat LA handily in the short Stage 1 TT which is an LA specialty.
Fact 2. AC climbing is better than everyone else right now.
Fact 3. Other Astana team members make a lot more $ if one of the team wins GC.

AC is the best on the team right now and he is not likely to get worse as the race progresses. They will support him and he will win barring a crash or a bad day. LA can grumble all he wants but his only real chance is a winning ride in the Annency TT. Even then I don't see Ventoux favoring LA over AC.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Tumbleweed said:


> Incorrect. He pounded his fist on the Astana table and said _"Este equipo es MINA!"_, in a high-pitched, whiny girl voice, then turned around, and walked away with his hands on his hips.
> Armstrong, Leipheimer, Kloden, and Popovych looked at each other in confusion, then let out a collective laugh.


_I edited your post a bit._


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## Pinarel00 (Jul 23, 2006)

Lance is able to spin the messaging because he speaks English and AC does not...The access that he grants is making the US/Anglophone journos quite biased in their TdF coverage...Velonews and all the mainstream US biking media are especially aflutter about LA, because of the marketing and sales bonanza that Lance homers represent...(Notice how prominent TREK adverst are on the velonews website? NOT a coincidence)

But the cycling facts are clear...LA took 40 seconds on stage 3 in covering a move in a smart display of tactical cycling- Chapeau to him...AC had to sit in the peoloton and watch LA put his 2 doms on the front of that group to drive home his advantage....Again, to LA's enormous credit and I think that AC learned a lesson that day...

Neither AC nor LA can attack the MJ if it is on a teammate...just poor form...AC knows this. He also KNEW that he had to get time back BEFORE Verbier. He KNEW that the flat, longer 2nd ITT  might not allow him to put 22 sec on LA like the ist one...He KNEW that there are only 3 Mtn finishes in this crazy TdF...He KNEW he had to gain time while the MJ was on another team, and he KNEW that he had to be aggressive to position himself for the MJ in the third week BEFORE Ventoux when Carlos Sastre will fly up that climb and put minutes into everyone, and sneak his way onto the podium...(btw, I buy the going theory that the Ventoux is why the Tourmalet has been so marginalised this yr)

AC showed a massive display of strength in a way that only he can in Arcalis, and LA should be saying "Chapeau to him"...That headwind on Arcalis was a blessing in disguise because it keept AC *OUT* of the MJ, and now forces LA's hand to attack HIS team leader if he wants to win the MJ-An attack that AC will counter and beat back comprehensively...

LA knows thais, and since he could not convince AC to "give" him the MJ, by playing the "Leipheimer" role he is now obliged to take it....Problem is that LA's carefully cultivated and lovingly tended image as a "superman" is under serious threat if he does this...Why? because AC will pimp slap his attack and shell LA for sure *IF* he can keep his wits about him, *IF* he does not panic, and *IF* he stays alert out there...LA knows this, and so has been trying to crawl into AC's head all week with this "Team first" Bullshit....This "Plan" crap and this "Sacrifice propoganda...

LA is waaaay too smart a rider to attack AC on Verbier, or Le Grand Bornand- AC will shell him for sure....So I expect him LA to go full gas to win in the ITT, hope for some help from CHTC (I'm sorry, but I have NEVER seen LA congratulate another rider like he did Cavendish after stage 3!) and then try solidify the win on the Ventoux- A mountain that he has never done well on...

I mean really?? It wasn't in the "Plan" for AC to attack on Arcalis??? It wasn't in the "plan for LA to make that break on stage 3 either but one is smart racing and one is "rogue racing?" Bullshit...

That logic does not hold water....Both were smart racing on the rider's preferred territory...LA in the flat in the wind, and AC on a 7% avg grade...

To paraphrase a smart rider "It does not take a rocket scientist to know that the road is 7%, AC will attack to gain time"...

Bottom line? NOONE has countered a LA attack successfully in his 99-05 TdF's, and he desperately wants to avoid looking like the talented, but older world class athlete that he is...This is NOT the way he wants to look in the spotlight (we All know how much LA loves the spotlight) and this is why he is casting the whole, "wise master vs Young Paduan" thing so hard...

Lance is doing PR..AC is doing the Tour...AC is physically superior to LA in every way...I just hope that the old LA psychological warfare tactics do not crack AC, because he deserves to win this race as the strongest, most entertaining man in it...

Cheers!


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## 2007TarmacSL (Nov 24, 2008)

If on the next mountain top finish LA breaks away with 3 kms to go..will AC play a defensive role? I doubt it. LA knows how to play the team role....AC is just in it for himself.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

2007TarmacSL said:


> If on the next mountain top finish LA breaks away with 3 kms to go..will AC play a defensive role? I doubt it. LA knows <strike> how to play the team role</strike><b>his legs don't have it any more</b>....AC is just in it <strike>for himself</strike><b> to win it for his team</b>.


fixed it for you!


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

g29er said:


> You,*sir.*..are correct!



Now, that is funny.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Pinarel00 said:


> Lance is able to spin the messaging because he speaks English and AC does not...The access that he grants is making the US/Anglophone journos quite biased in their TdF coverage...Velonews and all the mainstream US biking media are especially aflutter about LA, because of the marketing and sales bonanza that Lance homers represent...(Notice how prominent TREK adverst are on the velonews website? NOT a coincidence)
> 
> But the cycling facts are clear...LA took 40 seconds on stage 3 in covering a move in a smart display of tactical cycling- Chapeau to him...AC had to sit in the peoloton and watch LA put his 2 doms on the front of that group to drive home his advantage....Again, to LA's enormous credit and I think that AC learned a lesson that day...
> 
> ...


So, what are you saying? I don't think anyone *DESERVES* to win the Tour. If any rider wants it, they should fight for it, on the road. 
It'll make me happy to watch it all.


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## Ronman (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm not a veteran cycling fan like so many of you here, but removing so much history from the discussion (i.e., my lack of historical reference to influence my opinion) this seems pretty basic. As far as _who_ gets supported by the team I think will be the rider who sticks with the game plan which the team is following. AC, from what we've been told, didn't stick to the game plan when he took a flyer off the front. We can debate all day long how it effects the dynamics of the race, but the bottom line is he didn't follow team tactics (again, from what we've been told). Another thing, if LA had made the attack on the mountain instead of AC, would those who now support AC's decision to attack also support LA? 
And I thought Johan gave Astana orders to chase and/or stay in the breakaway in the wind that day. Lance made the break and Alberto did not, which Lance later said was simply because he was in the position to do so and followed the break. 
More than anything I hope we see a great race regardless of who wins. It's great that Lance is back in, as it really brings some of the passion back into the sport. Just follow this thread and you can see that. My point is I haven't yet uncovered the anti-AC conspiracy that so many seem to think exists. Just my ignorance I guess.


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## 2007TarmacSL (Nov 24, 2008)

philippec said:


> fixed it for you!


I didn't ask if LA had the legs to win...I asked if AC could play a team role if called upon...and he can't. AC is the best rider...but not a leader and is not gaining any respect in the Peleton.


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

In a sense I would have to agree with Eddy Merckx' assessment that in the strictest terms of team tactics, Contador should not have attacked. OTOH, I can't fault him for doing so, being a 26 yo rider at the cusp of a potentially brilliant career. He is a one Tour de France winner in a heated struggle to establish himself in a reign as a multiple Tour de France champion, and a second win in the Tour itself (as opposed to the Giro or the Espana) is in my opinion a significant moment of truth for any rider in his position. 

If we look at LA's early career, we see that for a number of years he was surrounded by a solid cadre of experienced tour racers who had nurtured and mentored him into the rider who post cancer retirement, went on to win 8 Tours. LA was furthermore able to pick his own DS, and with that DS's guidance, choose team riders dedicated solely to the proposition of helping him win the Tour. Contador was not afforded this ideal situation. Does Contador deserve this level of support? Probably. Is it written in stone that he should get it, and that all past Tour winners and contender's have historically received the same? No. Basically in the end you run what you brung, make do with your resources as best you can, and win on your own two legs. AC has shown that he still has lessons to learn before taking his place as patrone. I think Contador is obviously realizing all of this, and given the Astana team make up and the potential threat of LA, how can he avoid playing to his strength as a climber on the road to the ITT and Mt. Ventoux?


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

2007TarmacSL said:


> I didn't ask if LA had the legs to win...I asked if AC could play a team role if called upon...and he can't. AC is the best rider...but not a leader and is not gaining any respect in the Peleton.


except for all the riders whose respect he has gained --- and there are a lot of those!

And he is playing a team role, that of the team leader


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## scarecrow (Oct 7, 2007)

Given all of the stuff going on with Astana over the last 2 yrs I think AC has shown to be very reserved and classy. His team gets barred from the TDF last year and he can't defend his title. He did not complain about it too much. This year they bring back Armstrong and then aren't paying the riders. It was not clear there would even be an Astana team at the TDF until a month ago. He could have justifiably bailed on the team or started complaining to the media but he has not. He has largely stayed out of the team leader stuff. Anyone that has won 3 grand tours has the respect of the peleton. From what I have seen most in the race seem surprised that this is even an issue. Riis said if he was running Astana it would be everyone for AC, no question.


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## Pinarel00 (Jul 23, 2006)

*Exactly..No one "deserves" to win the Tour*



turbogrover said:


> So, what are you saying? I don't think anyone *DESERVES* to win the Tour. If any rider wants it, they should fight for it, on the road.
> It'll make me happy to watch it all.


.....But LA is spinning the message to make it seem as if AC is out of order for actually attacking on Arcalis- which is the hieght of hypocrisy, given that given his oppoprtunity LA had no problems attacking AC, and using 2 doms to help him do it....

I'm sorry, but by the time he put Popo and Zubeldia on the front in the stage 3 breakout, he KNEW that AC did not make the break, and attacked anyway...Fair, tough, no-nonsense racing in my book...So I cannot accept his crap when AC attacked HIM in the mountains as "not being according to plan"- Again, it was fair, tough, no-nonsense racing- 

If LA did not like the move then he should man up, bridge to AC, give him a tongue lashing like he gave to Simeoni back in the day, and send his ass back to the group...He chose not to do that...he chose some weak, rearguard action in the press criticising a move that LA himself would have done (and has done in the past) given the same opportunity...Complete bull****

This is even MORE crap, since LA was NOT in the MJ...As far as I am concerned, the objective should be to ensure that ASTANA wins the MJ in Paris, not that they follow some plan in the damn Pyrenees...AC knew this and went for it...Again, Chapeau to him, and if you don't like it, bridge to him and tell him so to his face, not on damn Velocenter!!

LA needs to shut it about "plans" and "playing the right teammate role" and the whole LA as martyred hero bull***....he is willing so slice the neck of his own grandmother to win the Tdf, and so is AC...LA should shut up, admit that he got shelled on stage 7, and that he is in a death match with a younger, stronger man for the win, and just be straight with us....

Then when AC heads up the road, and fires the "pistolero" we can all discuss and celebrate who WON the race, not who SHOULD win the race (based on history, and pedigree and blah, blah, blah)

Cheers!


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## Zampano (Aug 7, 2005)

^ I disagree. I feel that both riders should have the right to ride for themselves within a loose context of team etiquette and tactics.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

I'd like to thank AC for providing the most interesting talking point in the Pyrenees.


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

Pinarel00 said:


> .....But LA is spinning the message to make it seem as if AC is out of order for actually attacking on Arcalis- which is the hieght of hypocrisy, given that given his oppoprtunity LA had no problems attacking AC, and using 2 doms to help him do it....
> 
> I'm sorry, but by the time he put Popo and Zubeldia on the front in the stage 3 breakout, he KNEW that AC did not make the break, and attacked anyway...Fair, tough, no-nonsense racing in my book...So I cannot accept his crap when AC attacked HIM in the mountains as "not being according to plan"- Again, it was fair, tough, no-nonsense racing-
> 
> ...


I'd lke to see the best man win the Tour, but it usually takes a team to win it. If Contador is the strongest rider, I hope he can win it along with his team, and not lose it against his team. Same goes for Armstrong, Kloden, and Levi. Nonetheless, having Conti attack his own team makes for some good entertainment. It could be like watching a spectacular car crash, instead of watching a bunch of guys ride by on bikes.


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## rodster (Jun 29, 2006)

rodster said:


> Wouldn't have happened because LA would have attacked far earlier and ridden everyone off his wheel.
> 
> It's a different world these days though. Other than Ricco last year, extraterrestrial peformances are a rarer sight these days in grand tours.



After Conti's TT today, I stand corrected.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

fast ferd said:


> I think Lance is riding for Contador. Why else would AC trail him during the entire stage? Nobody can touch AC in the hills. He will win the tour by minutes.


...and it looks like I pegged it.


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