# FTP vs. real world racing



## bikeyql (Feb 3, 2015)

I started racing last year in cat 5 and I just barely made it to cat 4. I got a coach and a power meter over the winter and have been riding 6+ days a week. My 20 min w/kg is around 4.6. Is there anything else I can do to improve my results in road races this year?
Thanks


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

*4.6 watts/kg is amateur. Give up now.*

Or attack and solo to victory. Attack on the very first hill. Nobody in Cat 4 will follow.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

How much do you weigh?


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

I've seen this before. W/kg that don't reflect the category of racing. 4.6 should move most people to the Cat 2 level. 

Usually it's for a few reason:
-Poor bike handling skills
-Inefficient (or fear of) riding in the peleton
-Unusually low anaerobic capacity and neuromuscular power ability

These weaknesses are further exploited in crits.


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## bikeyql (Feb 3, 2015)

I weigh about 125lbs. I'd say my bike handling skills are reasonably good, I race cat3 for cyclocross. My 5min and 1 min power is similar to the level that my FTP is at.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Well that puts your FTP at ~245-250w. On flatter courses the bigger guys with 300w+ to play with are going to pull away. Not saying your power is bad by any stretch but that's not enough to ride away from the field and stay away. I guess you could call it the curse of being light. A hilly road race would be a different story.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

bikeyql said:


> I started racing last year in cat 5 and I just barely made it to cat 4. I got a coach and a power meter over the winter and have been riding 6+ days a week. My 20 min w/kg is around 4.6. Is there anything else I can do to improve my results in road races this year?
> Thanks


Can you expand on barely made it to Cat 4 - since all it takes is starts did you not race alot or where you getting shelled out of cat 5 races?. If its the either I would suggest you moved up too soo, some folks are in a big hurry to get out of cat5s but unless you are finishing each race solidly in the pack and have gotten a couple of good finishes I always recommend to people that stay cat 5 til that happens. Until you comfortable and really racing in the 5s whats the point of moving to 4s they are really no safer and its only gets harder.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

My advice to someone that has just started racing (sounds like you have 10 races under your belt, since you moved to Cat 4). Race as much as you can as a Cat 4. My FTP sucks. There are guys on my team with way better watts/kg than me. They are all Cat 4 and I'm a Cat 3. How do I get my results despite my lack of relative power? I race smart. I watch people, I learn who is good at what. I then exploit them. After each race, I analyze what happened. What I could have done better and what I did right. I learn from each race. 

Race as much as you can and try to learn as much as you can. Watch how the better riders corner; watch how they burn their matches; figure out what you can do, and what you can't do; take some chances;MOST OF ALL - have fun and don't get too serious. There will be plenty of time to be serious when you're a Cat 2.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

bikeyql said:


> I weigh about 125lbs. I'd say my bike handling skills are reasonably good, I race cat3 for cyclocross. My 5min and 1 min power is similar to the level that my FTP is at.


Forgot another one: "rider doesn't recover quickly after hard efforts." That's one that typical power meter tests don't cover (I've seen testing protocols that measured repeatability though (the famous Ryan Trebon vs. Adam Craig power analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdB2LK4ZLbg&index=2&list=PL0BI9YAa4MJFV4tuAaZrAyrKgsweZpVo_)). BTW, Ryan Trebon also had 4.6 W/kg according to the testers. 

But as Dunbar alluded to, since your light, you don't put out as much power despite high W/kg. On flats, it's more about Power to air drag.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

bikeyql said:


> I weigh about 125lbs. I'd say my bike handling skills are reasonably good.


Where are you racing? If it is hilly you should do very well. If it is flatland with punishing crosswinds you will suffer more. But that's not to say a lighter person can't hang tough in a flat crit. 

For reference, my girlfriend has a 4.2+ w/kg FTP and weighs a few lbs more than you (but unlike you, she is a sprinter). 10-15 minutes after getting on the podium in the P1/2 womens crits she will jump in the P1/2 mens races with me. Her results are mixed, with both DNFs and finishes in the front half of the field.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

bikeyql said:


> I started racing last year in cat 5 and I just barely made it to cat 4. I got a coach and a power meter over the winter and have been riding 6+ days a week. My 20 min w/kg is around 4.6. Is there anything else I can do to improve my results in road races this year?
> Thanks


Learn to sprint. Most useful thing you can do until you're a Cat 2. And even then, a good sprint is a high priority for regular podiums. Note that a good sprint does not necessarily mean a massive max wattage, but the ability to read the race, get in position, and maintain that position to the end. Even if you don't pack much more than a 1,000 watt sprint, jump from 150m to go from second position and you'll likely top 5.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

jajichan said:


> Learn to sprint.


How though? 



A long time ago I saw these drills (compiled from a few internet articles) on a message board. 

*Jumps*
You can increase your reaction time on group rides by sprinting for specific road signs. The designated sprinter in the group decides when he or she will initiate the sprint without informing the group. The others respond and chase until the initial cyclist is caught or ends the effort.

Take turns initiating the sprint and vary the distance from 100 to 300 meters.

This drill will force you to learn to sprint in various gears, uphill, downhill, into the wind, with the wind at your back, and at various positions in the group.

Get off the saddle, charge down the road as you build speed and cadence, then sit down and increase your rpm and shift gears as needed. Stay low on the bike and reasonably smooth lots of erratic movement on the bike is unsafe and will slow you down.


*Sprints in Progressively Bigger Gears*
After a good warm-up, complete two sprints of 200 to 250 meters, one sprint of 300 to 350 meters, one to two sprints 200 to 250 meters. Rest for at least eight to 10 minutes between sprints or until your heart rate returns to about 120 while riding in an easy gear before you start another set.

Use the first 50 to 100 meters to get up to speed and then ride all-out, shifting to higher and higher gears until the finish. As the season progresses, gradually increase the longest sprint to 400 to 500 meters.

*Declining Time Sprints*
After a good warm-up, start with a sprint of 60 seconds, then 50 seconds, 40, 30 and 20, all at maximum effort. Allow your heart rate to return to below 120 before beginning the next set. Finish with two to four sprints of 30 seconds.

*Race Sprints*
While riding with several teammates (five or six should be the maximum), try to replicate race sprints or jumps that you have seen from race videos or from past race experiences. One rider should attack at a certain place on the road or at a particular speed and then everyone goes from there. The person who is selected to jump also decides how long the sprint should last.

These sprints can be completed during the last few hours of longer road rides.

*Ins and outs*
Davis Phinney likes to have younger or beginning cyclists practice sprinting while getting in and out of the saddle at his training camps. You start by jumping (rising) out of the saddle in a big gear, for 10 pedal revolutions, and then sitting back down in the saddle, then sprinting for another 10 revolutions.

Repeat these sprints three times while jumping out of the saddle and then sitting back down, and then coming out of the saddle. You will have sprinted 30 revolutions in the saddle and 30 revolutions out of the saddle. These sprints are best done with the wind at your back or on a slight decline.

This drill works on your ability to sprint and accelerate several times during a long sprint. This ability is needed during racing when riders keep jumping in the final kilometers of the race.

*Hill Sprints*
On a hill of about 5 to 9 percent grade, find a segment that will take about 20 to 25 seconds to summit. From the starting spot, initiate each sprint with a jump of seven to 10 pedal strokes and then return to the saddle and go all-out to the top. You may get out of the saddle again for the last 10 yards to the top.

Then turn around and pedal easily back down the hill. Do not begin another sprint until your heart rate drops below 120 bpm. Keep the bicycle as straight as possible, and ride in as straight a line as possible to the top. For example, on a road bike use a 39 x 21 or 20 for the first sprint, 39 x 19 or 18 for the second sprint, 39 x 17 or 16 for the third, and 39 x 15 or 13 for the fourth.

There are many physiological reasons why speedwork is necessary if you want to maximize your potential at any distance, from road races to in-town criteriums. During speedwork you train your body to recruit the muscles necessary to be able to sprint. You also learn a sense of relaxation at race pace, which comes as a result of training your muscles to function at an accelerated pace.

Building power and speed into your cycling program is a good way to add variety to your workouts. And there is no reason to repeat the same speed workout every week, because there are many options to getting the same job done.


*Start Like a Rocket*
A quick and powerful acceleration snaps rivals off your rear wheel. When you master this initial part of the sprint, you can instantly open a one- to two-bike-length gap to the pack behind you, which is quite a head start.

The key is Speed Accelerations, or sets of three 15-second sprints at different resistance levels, which will help you develop the agility, power and technique necessary to ramp up your speed on any terrain. You'll be able to accelerate from a slow speed on a climb, from high speed on a descent and at the finish line--all in the same day. Beginners should do two sets, intermediates (Cat 3s and Masters) should do three, and advanced riders should be able to complete four. Allow three to five minutes of easy recovery spinning between each sprint, and 10 minutes of recovery between sets.

Sprint 1: Shift your gears to the small chainring and 16-17 cog. Roll at 10-12 mph with your hands in the drops. Jump out of the saddle and sprint. You'll spin out the gear quickly. Then, sit down and focus on keeping your cadence high to the finish.

Sprint 2: Same as Sprint 1, but in the big chainring and 16-17 cog.

Sprint 3: Same as Sprint 1, but in the big chainring and 14-15 cog.


*Leave Them Fighting for Second *
A sprint can be won with an excellent jump, but it can just as easily be lost with inadequate top-end speed. To prevent someone from passing you in the final 20 meters, focus on High Speed Sprints.

Because real-world sprints often start from speeds well above your normal 15-18 mph cruising pace, you need to start High Speed Sprints from higher speeds as well. Find a hill that levels off onto flat ground in a safe area. Ride downhill so you're going 25-30 mph about 100 meters from the bottom. With your hands in the drops, jump out of the saddle and start sprinting. Continue for 10-12 seconds after you reach flat ground. Even though it will get harder because you don't have gravity's help, try to keep your speed and cadence from dropping. Recover with five minutes of easy riding and repeat. Beginners should start with one set of four, intermediates should build up to two sets of four, and advanced riders should be able to do three sets of four.

These workouts are easy to incorporate into regular endurance rides, and are fun to add to rides with a friend or two. Sneak them in just twice a week, and soon you'll notice that when the hammer drops, you're half a wheel faster--or more. And that can make all the difference.​


When training with a single partner I like to take turns giving a leadout (similar to Jumps above). From a half mile out one rider goes to the front and attempts to ramp it up as a leadout man and even break the second rider off. A smooth acceleration up to their 60s max power and then holds it until the second rider makes their move. 

The second rider drafts and then sprints from 150-200m out; if possible the first rider contests the sprint. Alternate. If one rider is stronger they take the front position more often.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

Local Hero said:


> How though?


By sprinting. It's actually fairly intuitive.

It can be pretty surprising how many people don't even try.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

jajichan said:


> By sprinting. It's actually fairly intuitive.
> 
> It can be pretty surprising how many people don't even try.


You mean guys who don't try sprinting while training or don't try it in races? 

There are a lot of guys who neglect to train their sprint. Some fancy themselves sprinters, and then "sit in and wait for the sprint" in races. They figure that some magic will happen at the end of the race, a sort of "I don't know karate but I know ka-razy" approach. The end of the race comes and goes and they finish mid pack. What happened to their intuition? 

While some are naturals, I firmly believe that the sprint must be trained like any other aspect of racing (like climbing, TTing, bike handling, etc).


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

And how do you train all of those other things? By doing them. 

It really is that simple. You want to to get better at climbing? Go ride some climbs hard. TTing? Get in a position and push hard on the pedals. Bike handling? Get in a pack, a parking lot, whatever, and do it. 

Same thing with sprinting. Go sprint. A lot. There's not a lot of "how" to it, just like there's not a lot of "how" to most aspects of bike riding/racing.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

not sure what you mean by the last sentence - your 1 min and 5 power shouldn't be similar to your ftp. 1 min should be almost double ftp. If it isn't then, you need to work on top end power. Sprinting might help, but you're never going to be a sprinter at 125 lbs. 



bikeyql said:


> I weigh about 125lbs. I'd say my bike handling skills are reasonably good, I race cat3 for cyclocross. My 5min and 1 min power is similar to the level that my FTP is at.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

bikeyql said:


> I started racing last year in cat 5 and I just barely made it to cat 4. I got a coach and a power meter over the winter and have been riding 6+ days a week. My 20 min w/kg is around 4.6. Is there anything else I can do to improve my results in road races this year?
> Thanks


Do you have a velodrome nearby? Nothing teaches tactics as quickly as a few nights of track racing.


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## jajichan (Jul 9, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> not sure what you mean by the last sentence - your 1 min and 5 power shouldn't be similar to your ftp. 1 min should be almost double ftp. If it isn't then, you need to work on top end power. Sprinting might help, but you're never going to be a sprinter at 125 lbs.


Probably means they're in line on that inane power chart that has nothing to do with anything. 

Possibly he's more of an "all-rounder" profile than a climber or a sprinter, etc. Probably he's just under-trained in those critical power durations.

And you don't have to be a "sprinter" to sprint, but you're damn sure going to have to sprint at some point to get upgrade points. And the better you are, it's very probable the faster you'll move up.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

jajichan said:


> Learn to sprint. Most useful thing you can do until you're a Cat 2. And even then, a good sprint is a high priority for regular podiums. Note that a good sprint does not necessarily mean a massive max wattage, but the ability to read the race, get in position, and maintain that position to the end. Even if you don't pack much more than a 1,000 watt sprint, jump from 150m to go from second position and you'll likely top 5.


So true, when my wife raced she was by no means a sprinter AT ALL, but she had a great ability to get in position and she could hold it (elbows and headbutts if required) and she had nice jump. With those things she managed to finish in the top 6 of many a race, crit and road race alike.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48WlloSd23s


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## bikeyql (Feb 3, 2015)

I race in Alberta, Canada. Here you can't upgrade solely by doing 10 races. I had about 4 top-5 finishes. It is very flat here and its rare that a race finishes on a hill, so definitely not ideal for me. The nearest velodrome is 2.5 hours away. I was always in the lead pack in cat5 races without much trouble. I just found it hard to be very aggressive because of my diminutive size.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Well, if you're racing against fatties on flat courses you must learn to draft and counterattack.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

bikeyql said:


> I race in Alberta, Canada. Here you can't upgrade solely by doing 10 races. I had about 4 top-5 finishes. It is very flat here and its rare that a race finishes on a hill, so definitely not ideal for me. The nearest velodrome is 2.5 hours away. I was always in the lead pack in cat5 races without much trouble. I just found it hard to be very aggressive because of my diminutive size.


Position and jump (which can be trained) for the finish, you may not win but you can place well.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

bikeyql said:


> I race in Alberta, Canada. Here you can't upgrade solely by doing 10 races. I had about 4 top-5 finishes. It is very flat here and its rare that a race finishes on a hill, so definitely not ideal for me. The nearest velodrome is 2.5 hours away. I was always in the lead pack in cat5 races without much trouble. I just found it hard to be very aggressive because of my diminutive size.


Hey Dude,
I also race in Alberta - nice to see another Albertan here! I recently made the move to Cat2. What I've learned is that tactics are pretty damn important here. I'm more of a roleur than you at around 165-170lbs in race season. I'm too risk averse to be a sprinter (I think about the risks too much) and I'm too heavy to be a true climber, but we have few races that end in long climbs; and I typically can keep up with the little guys on the rollers that we do have. What I've learned is that:

- It helps to learn who you're competing against. Watch the guys in the pack and know who is likely to do well in a sprint, who is likely to attack early and form a breakaway, who actually has the sustained power to make a breakaway survive, who will get dropped if the pace is suddenly risen in a crosswind, on a hill etc etc.

- Make friends in the group...you never know when someone might lend you a favor that could lead to a podium finish

- Constantly plan and re-plan the race. I now know our race series pretty well and know what kind of situations could end up resulting in a good finish for me. On flat courses I try to get in mid-to-late race breakaways with guys who I think are likely able to carry me to the finish. If there are small hills I try to push the pace just enough to drop guys I'd be worried about in a sprint. On a hillier course I try to encourage others to keep a pace that's high but consistent to try to discourage you skinny guys from being able to launch too explosive of an attack. On windy days I try to do as little as possible in the wind and try to attack in such a way as to get the advantages of going solo with a tailwind. Just make sure that as the race unfolds you keep re-evaluating what the potential outcomes are and how you can take advantage. For example Often others attack and it can seem like you missed the boat...then the pack tires itself out chasing them....if you see this happening you can sit back and take advantage!

- We have quite a few little stage races where there is a short TT or hillclimb as part of a GC or Omnium.... being able to go ridiculously hard for ~10-12 minutes can get you some important TT upgrade points. That said, I think you learn a heck of a lot more from upgrading slowly with more pack-racing..... 

Remember that no one likes a sketchy rider in the pack...view your time in Cat 5 and Cat 4 as a great opportunity to learn a lot about handling your bike predictably, and learning to predict the actions of others. You can 'fine tune' these skills in Cat 3; then by the time you make it to Cat 2 hopefully people respect you as a solid and SAFE rider. One thing I've noticed in Cat 2 is that no one in that pack is too keen on guys that worked the system too efficiently and shot up the ranks too quickly without the proper skills in place! (not to say that this applies to you)


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