# boltcutter proof locks?



## 1971tch

I thought this would be the best place for this question. Does anyone know of a lock (maybe the Kryptonite New Yorker) that will stand up to boltcutters. All suggestions are welcome. Maybe something in Ti. I've had four bikes stolen in my years of cycling, one of which was stolen twice. I'm looking for something for a new touring bike I'm going to order. weight is not really a concern and as long as it's not completely insane price i'snt really much of a concern either.


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## lbkwak

How did you get your bikes stolen? How and where did you keep your bikes?

Unless you are like one of those people who parks his bike that is worth more than $300 outside overnight and expect that bike to be there next day, you shouldn't have any problems with NY lock.


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## Guest

The NYFU lock in particular is the thickest bicycle U-lock on the market (almost 3/4" steel) which is too thick to be attacked with a boltcutter. That's really the best one can hope for as for as locks go. If someone is willing to use an angle grinder or gas torch they can take a bike (often the rack the bike is locked to is actually easier to cut than the locks themselves)

Only problem with the NYFU is it's pretty small shackle so places without a proper bike rack it may be difficult to find a place to lock to.


Back in college I used to just leave a NYFU lock at the bike rack nearest the lab where I worked. That way I rarely had to carry around all the weight. I used a second ligher and larger U-lock just to use around town, or for short stops. Parking by the lab was the highest risk (high bike theft area, and I often worked very late hours (until 2am in many cases), so buying a lock just to use there was worth it.


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## 1971tch

Thanks guys.I guess I'll try the newyorker. By the way only one of the bikes was stolen from outside my house and yes I forgot and left it out after dark. All the bikes were locked with cable locks and all were cut with cutters. I asked because I worked at a shop several years ago and removed a few ulocks for customers who had lost their keys. A hammer was all that was needed. By the way I started riding in 89' so its not like I've had several stolen in the same year.


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## frankdatank1337

I use the OnGuard stuff. 
I use the Bulldog U-Lock all the time. Its been attacked a few times with bolt cutters but never been broken. When Im going to leave my bike outside all day/night I use the Beast Chain/ulock, although as the name states its a beast (weighs a ton!). Its total overkill and shouldn't be needed unless you live in a Urban area with high theft. Finally, those braided cables aren't that great; Ive had a couple cut.


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## lbkwak

Locks that work - London Fixed-gear and Single-speed


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## desertwalk

The only proven boltcutter-proof chain that I've seen is the Almax Immobilizer series.

Pairing the Almax Immobilizer in shorter bicycle length (for reduced weight) with a Assa Abloy Protec PL362 (which is still unpickable today, and even if someone does figure out how, it will take the highest level of skill to manage) is the best option for keeping your bike safe.

The boltcutters bend or break before the Almax chain. I imagine part of that is that no one bothers to sell a 19mm chain when they can sell a smaller chain that is cheaper to make.


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## Scott B

Just get a good u-lock and you ought to be good to go. I like the Kryptonite Evolution series mini-u myself. Is it unbreakable? No. Is it more difficult to break than most locks on the market? Yes. I lock my bike with the mini-u and a cable for the wheels every time and that combo has served me well.

You don't have to make your bike impossible to steal. You just have to make it worthwhile for a thief to look for an easier target. If you always lock in one place, like at work, you can leave a heavy duty chain or something like a super beefy u-lock there.


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## tlg

Why worry about bolt cutters? This is easier to carry, and will cut through even the thickest U-Bolt in 30sec.


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## Guest

tlg said:


> Why worry about bolt cutters? This is easier to carry, and will cut through even the thickest U-Bolt in 30sec.


There's no way in hell I could cut my NYFU in 30 seconds with a dremel. For one thing, it's actually necessary to cut the bolt *twice* (there are two locking mechanisms on each end of the bolt) and the thickness of the steel makes it hard to attack with such a small grinder wheel.

That said, your general idea is true. One of these:



can easily defeat any lock on the market, and is still about as easy to carry as a boltcutter.


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## addaman

*the lock you always wanted*

ive been doing the research on my lock,and saw this post,i have the bolt cutter,grinder,carbide or diamond resistant,and torch resistant,breaks hk porter 48 inch bolt cutters as well as car bumper jacks,lock ,ive prototyped thes 10 years ago,its still ready for production with the chromolly /carbon fiber frame combo designs,the lock weighs two and one quarter pounds with a three quarters shackle diameter,the frame system with a weight between the two systems,basically a bang proof carbonfiber bike,if people are interested in seeing these products on the market,ill need sponsers,not partners or investors,im actually a 42 year locksmith and can answer all those curious questions about bike theft,ive checked all major locks for years,also my kids bike lock weighs just one pound sooos youy can use three of them for the weight of brand x,whos up to helping me? im david at addaproducts


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## froze

Any lock can be defeated as Photon Freak so well pointed out, and be defeated with rather common small tools! For the real stealthy approach, lock picking is slowly catching on as well, and picking makes the thief look like he's having a little difficulty with his key.

A determined thief will get your bike, sorry but that's the way it is. The best deterrent is to buy a used clunker or a Walmart bike and take that places where theft has been a problem, and lock it up instead of your nice bike. If you look long enough you can find really nice used bikes for under $250 that will be very reliable and in very good condition.

And this video show just how much people care about your bike being stolen: bike thief - YouTube


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## addaman

*pick proof locks*

thanks +for the look,i holding the bolt cutter proof lock now ,it stops the new battery powered bolt cutters with the carbide jaws,but they cost 25hundred each,available from lockmasters,the best pick resistant lock ive tested is the tubar from chicago lock,it has a case hardened front,anti drill too and the chinese pagoda is good,the videx uses no key,is computer operated in a vend cylinder.sooos it never picks.my bike lock has an armor guard like a coin washer to stop picking ,but mostly grinding, remember diamond wont cut a wet stick and grinders dont like lead,so my lock does stop grinding.the balance is to stop theft from one or two tools.i prefer a trike for better balance for me.the lock picks work poorly anyway,not like tv,cylinders are mostly drilled or ground,david


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## froze

I'm having a difficult time understanding what you are saying. Lock picking has become all the rage in Europe with even contests going on for the title of best lock picker. I have a friend that can pick any lock he's come across, obviously he hasn't come across all the locks in the world, but for the mass majority sold here in the US he can undo.

As far as a cut proof lock do you have a web site for such a lock for bicycles? $2,500 is just stupid for a lock like that to be on any bike unless it's a Harley or some such motorcycle. And the Tubar doesn't make a lock for bicycles so that point is useless in this discussion. And the Videx Cyberlock sells only a pad lock with an easy to cut shackle, so picking isn't necessary to defeat it.


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## Miles42

Too bad you are not allowed to booby trap the bike. Time delayed no code bike blows. LOL What a sad state of so called humanity.


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## froze

Miles42 said:


> Too bad you are not allowed to booby trap the bike. Time delayed no code bike blows. LOL What a sad state of so called humanity.


To bad we can't booby trap a bike, problem is if a innocent bystander is affected by the booby trap then we're in trouble, even if no is affected we're still in trouble, even if only the thief is affected we're in trouble. But that would make the life of a thief more of a challenge.

Maybe not blow up a bike, but with steel bikes anyway you could electrically charge the frame, but that's illegal too.


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## addaman

just my acquard syntax,theelectro battery boltcutters cost 2500 each,the lock is ready for production at about 100 bucks or less,a decent key cylinder cost 35 dollars,greenwald makes them for washer and dryers for the coin boxes,and the laundrys manage to keep the money,the system must have a cylinder guard to prevent drilling and grinding,vend cylinders in the whole world use the "nama" spec either 3/4 inch or 19 mm considered interchangable plus the length,sooos if padlocks ,bicycle locks were designed around these specs and had a removable cylinder,you could chpse your level,abus ,granite i think uses the abloy pick rersistant cylinder,also available as a vend cyl,not linely to pick,but easy to drill,sooos they use a cylinder guard,tyhese are hundred dollar boat anchors,tubar is a vend cylinder,fits any of my prototypes,for the one pound lock,i like combicam or tech,combo for 10 bucks a cylinder,fit all my products,i make key locking beer faucet locks,david


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## froze

You make no sense whatsoever! The Abloy is indeed pick resistant...did you get the meaning of pick resistant? Abloy doesn't say it's pick proof, my friend can pick those locks blind folded. The reason vending machines and the such that use those locks don't get picked is because the professional thief isn't going to waste his time doing such a thing to get such a small reward for his efforts. The average vending machine only makes a dollar a day! Just how much change do you think is going to be one of those on any given day? And then the change is automatically recycled as change is given and taken. Sure high traffic areas will take in up to $250 a day but those machines are inside cafeterias etc where theft would be non existent. In secluded places those machines are put behind gates to prevent a thief from gaining access while no one is around.

And you don't need a $2500 battery powered bolt cutter when a $130 battery powered Dremel tool will work just as good and be a lot more discrete then a bolt cutter.


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## addaman

thanks for the candid opinion,froze you are dead on and accurate,appreciate this as i need to address the actual needs of real users of which i am not qualified.i do have a model design to specifically stop the grinders,the large dewalt,i did tests,it doesnt cut with the trick wheels,but protecting the key cylinder is as you stated,is a problem,i personally use my milualkee die grinder for lockouts,takes 10 minuts,but im neet and dont damage the ride,if you have any wants ,just post ,iwant to address the real needs here,david


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## froze

The problem is, assuming this is even technologically possible, if someone were able to make a bicycle lock that would be cut, saw, grinder, freeze, and pick PROOF, the darn lock would be cost more then most bikes on the market! So we have to accept some weaknesses in order to buy a lock that is more down to earth in price. In reality this whole thing has an easy fix...don't lock up a real nice bike someplace where you can't see it! Buy a junker bike or a Walmart bike to lock up in places where you can't watch the bike.


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## LSanguine

froze said:


> The problem is, assuming this is even technologically possible, if someone were able to make a bicycle lock that would be cut, saw, grinder, freeze, and pick PROOF, the darn lock would be cost more then most bikes on the market! So we have to accept some weaknesses in order to buy a lock that is more down to earth in price. In reality this whole thing has an easy fix...don't lock up a real nice bike someplace where you can't see it! Buy a junker bike or a Walmart bike to lock up in places where you can't watch the bike.


Better idea. The same thing I use, which is two products. 
[URL]http://www.halfords.com/webapp...uctId_888463_langId_-1_categoryId_165752#tab3[/url]
and
[URL]http://www.halfords.com/webapp..._productId_777771_langId_-1_categoryId_165752[/url]
The first link is a screamer, and the second link is a chain. Theives will be able to break the chain, probably with some ease if they have the required tools. However, they will not and do not expect the second act of security, which is the screamer lock. Also, trust me. 110 decibels? I can hear it on the opposite side of a busy supermarket, let alone on the street or in a garage. Also, as a brake disk lock, they push it? it doesn't go anywhere. They try and ride it? it doesn't go anywhere.


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## tednugent

Master Lock stuff made with boron alloy are very very tough. Much stronger than the regular "hardened steel"


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## addaman

masters a joke,check the pop mech test(april)one miniut with a battery grinder----i have the no cut lock and the schackle doesnt cut with a torch,,2.5 lbs under a hundred bucks,
this is really a motorcycle lock but many roadbikes are are worth more-im filing the provisional patent now,im all set up for production,just need feedback---i have the design for the uncuttable flex type lock,same specs---my lock is one tenth the weight of a lock and chain ,costs less and doesnt cut with any conventional tool--what more would anyone expect--i hope the bike delivery services will be interested,david


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## Blackbeerthepirate

addaman said:


> masters a joke,check the pop mech test(april)one miniut with a battery grinder----i have the no cut lock and the schackle doesnt cut with a torch,,2.5 lbs under a hundred bucks,
> this is really a motorcycle lock but many roadbikes are are worth more-im filing the provisional patent now,im all set up for production,just need feedback---i have the design for the uncuttable flex type lock,same specs---my lock is one tenth the weight of a lock and chain ,costs less and doesnt cut with any conventional tool--what more would anyone expect--i hope the bike delivery services will be interested,david




Okay, I'll bite.


Please tell me more.


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## addaman

not much more to tellthe expected production run should be 4-6 months,1 bb kide model,2,5 m/c and good bikes,5 lb,7/8 inch dia schackle(harley lock),,first burgler bars and gates,also torchproof-to generate funds--these are searchwarrent proof sooos you need to give all enforcement and fire a copy of your key,not dog the bounty hunter,pot shops are everywhere in silicon valley and break ins constant---the products will be displayed at the local flea mkt,sooos people can bring their own grinders and torches ,same for bike shows--ive got many more products,keep asking,david


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## Zeet

The problem with angle grinders, is that they spark like the dickens and attract way too much attention. Also, they're not quiet. I was once told by an ex-bicycle thief, that practically any lock on the market could be successfully compromised with a regular hacksaw, the proper blade, and enough time. Like Froze has already stated, the absolute best defense, is a beater bike. Lock a beater bike up somewhere with a U Lock and just Fahgettaboudit!


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## Zeet

Zeet said:


> The problem with angle grinders, is that they spark like the dickens and attract way too much attention. Also, they're not quiet. I was once told by an ex-bicycle thief, that practically any lock on the market could be successfully compromised with a regular hacksaw, the proper blade, and enough time. Like Froze has already stated, the absolute best defense, is a beater bike. Lock a beater bike up somewhere with a U Lock and just Fahgettaboudit!


If you run out of ideas for a good beater bike, then just go either to Bikesdirect or Nashbar and get one of their really cheap single speeds...ie...The Nashbar Hounder perhaps...


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## addaman

*a good attitude*



Zeet said:


> If you run out of ideas for a good beater bike, then just go either to Bikesdirect or Nashbar and get one of their really cheap single speeds...ie...The Nashbar Hounder perhaps...


agreed,i look at the local flea mkt,see these old steel frames,severat with reyonalds tags on the frame,one itialian model,40 bucks,no,takers,the silver brazing rod cost more than that,when i aks "do you know what you have?" ,yea its a bicycle---im advise people to buy a champion beater,quality steel frame,keep it clean,but lock it up--at stanford univerisity they average 100 stolen bikes a year,even beaters,sooos i still say lock it up---anology --if you dont want a burglar to damage the house door while hes breaking in,leave the door unlocked,or move to a cheap house and see what happens ,bikes are quick untraceble cash,i see several hundred each weekend at the flea mkt--carbon fiber specialized average 350 dollars,stolen 5k dollar power wheelchairs are high theft,besides,i dont own a bike


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## froze

Not only are bikes untraceable unless you registered your serial number but it would then be like trying to find a needle in a haystack; but also if the bike was licensed and recorded with the local police a sticker would be on the bike indicating so, the thief would simply remove the components and sell them and dump the frame.

So even if you buy a beater get a decent lock but you don't need an uber expensive one. One trick I heard from a college kid some time ago was park your bike next to more expensive bikes using cheaper locks. I also knew a college kid that took a chain and beat the snot out of his not quite beater bike, then let it set outside to get some surface rust on it, no one bothered that bike for the entire 4 years while others around were stolen.


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## addaman

froze,,san jose police diccontinued bike licensing and only take bike theft reports by internet--stolen bikes have absolutely no investigation --i believe the investigation for home burglary is 10 k or more,all else report by internet only--the local fire deps used to do registration ,now claim its not cost effective (fire guys get paid by the minute)we are a huge city,but the core problem is the city itself--tho only reason the city has for liking bikes is writing tickets when parked wrong,without registration,they cant recoup the money---the city aggrivates the problem,helps create the black mkt----yeah!!!sooos i can sell a lot of locks here,bike thieves contribute to the economy too


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## CleavesF

I used to live in Madison (notorious for bike theft) and never had an issue using the NY locks (own a Ulock and Chain). The most that was ever stolen was my cheapo Schwinn cyclocomputer. 

On another note, fenders and racks usually put your bicycle into the "don't steal this POS" category no matter how nice it is.


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## froze

^^ Unfortunately we live in a very weird country with the way police are handling things. Kick a cat to death get 9 years in prison and be released in a year and 1/2. Molest a 5 year old girl get 5 years in prison and be released in less then 3 months served. Sell drugs on the street get 20 years in prison with 10 for good behavior, sell a kidnapped girl for the sex trade and get 6 years in prison and maybe 1 year total served. Kill an unarmed man after chasing him for no reason get off scott free. Steal a bike and most large cities won't even make out a police report and you can forget about any kind of investigation, though if you know your serial number, (I have all of mine written down), and a unrelated bust happens and they need to check all property confiscated for stolen property they will find a stolen bike, but the damn police a lot of times won't bother calling the owner so the bike ends up in auction. I knew one guy who's bike was stolen then later confiscated, he went to an auction saw his bike there told the police and they said he would have to buy it from the auction just like anyone else would in order to get his bike back! When he questioned that policy they said the auction price has to pay for the cost of storage and paperwork.

The only way you're going to protect yourself once the bike is stolen is to have homeowners or renters insurance, pay your deductible and find a new bike. Keep your receipts on bikes and write down the serial number.


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## addaman

thank you,now i know where to market my 1 lb lock---take care if you fall off your bike wearing the boat anchor around your waist,you wont float ,the idea is--ifr frames are lightweight,why carry a boat anchor,,the heavy krypto junk weighs three times as much,breaks in one miniute-the one lb to be rated for for 5 minutes (solid secure english rating),i thought the speedos and lack of clothes were to lighten the load,i guess im out of touch,,must be some sort of mating call between riders--ill start looking for a cheap 3 wheeler and keep my leather jacket


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## froze

addaman said:


> thank you,now i know where to market my 1 lb lock---take care if you fall off your bike wearing the boat anchor around your waist,you wont float ,the idea is--ifr frames are lightweight,why carry a boat anchor,,the heavy krypto junk weighs three times as much,breaks in one miniute-the one lb to be rated for for 5 minutes (solid secure english rating),i thought the speedos and lack of clothes were to lighten the load,i guess im out of touch,,must be some sort of mating call between riders--ill start looking for a cheap 3 wheeler and keep my leather jacket



Funny stuff. Problem is when you're commuting you're not typically wearing speedos, in fact most commuters carry some sort of bag with clothes and food...oh my gosh, more weight. 

However, a wise commuter wouldn't take their lightweight uber expensive racing bike to work and leave it parked outside all day hoping the $200 5 pound lock will keep it safe till they return. A wise commuter would buy an el cheapo bike either a used or a new Walmart job and commute on that bike and leave the nice one at home. Then he only needs to carry some sort of adequate protection to lock up the beater.


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