# DT Revolutions and flex



## deoranjeleeuw (Dec 3, 2010)

I have an opportunity to purchase the following wheels: 

-32 hole Record hubs
-DT Revolution laced 3 cross
-DT Swiss 465 Rims
-Brass nipples

A bit concerned about having DT Revs all around as I weight 195-205 depending on the time of year. These would be my all around wheels mostly training and group rides with maybe a few races.

Will they flex too much under my weight?


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## valleycyclist (Nov 1, 2009)

Can you try the wheels before you make the purchase? I would be more concerned with the durability of rear wheel. Maybe you can relace the drive side with Competition spokes.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*dt rev flex*



deoranjeleeuw said:


> I have an opportunity to purchase the following wheels:
> 
> -32 hole Record hubs
> -DT Revolution laced 3 cross
> ...


Yes they will flex. I tried this (cxp33, 3x, rebuilt 2x). Mine got out of true often because you can't put much tension spokes unwind.


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## deoranjeleeuw (Dec 3, 2010)

> Can you try the wheels before you make the purchase?


No this would be an eBay 2nd chance purchase. 

Sounds like I should pass. Price is good but if I need to swap spokes.....



> Yes they will flex. I tried this (cxp33, 3x, rebuilt 2x). Mine got out of true often because you can't put much tension spokes unwind.


I would expect the cxp33 to be a stiffer rim so probably more flex with the 465's and more confirmation on passing.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Rev all the way on a 465 is NP...With a CXP 33 a tad better.

130kgf DS should be sufficiant for most riders
A Sapim CX-ray has the same cross sectional area.
How many 'high end' wheels do you hear of having 32 CX-ray rear?
Closer to 24 & 28, yeah that's right


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

steel515 said:


> Yes they will flex. I tried this (cxp33, 3x, rebuilt 2x). Mine got out of true often because you can't put much tension spokes unwind.


Your problem is with the wheel builder, not the spokes.

I got 14 years without truing out of the first front wheel I built (Mavic Reflex Clincher, 32 DT Revolutions) until I finally put a bend in the rim. I used non-drive-side DT Revolutions on the first rear wheel I built. It didn't go out of true until I ran over a pot hole and put a flat spot in the rim. The last replacement rim hasn't gone out of true over 5-6 years.

With proper lubrication (I like anti-seize) on the spoke threads and nipple sockets (oil) you can tension DT 2.0 revolutions to the same 110-120 kgf as other spokes.

I measured the bent front wheel before replacing the rim at 110kgf average +9/-5% except at the bend. The replacement using the same spokes and alloy nipples (except 4, which I probably twisted in a road side repair) came out of the truing stand at about 110kgf and better than +/-5% without a tire. After 100 miles there's one tiny lateral offset; oops.

Rear non-drive side tension is probably low - the drive side is only 110kgf with a tire, and it's a Campagnolo hub which results in a higher tension imbalance.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Arent campy hubs notoriously narrow? This might cause problems with the NDS going slack.

Flex doesnt equal weak.. some flex can result in a more durable wheel than a stiff one, but imo, having a noodly wheel under you doesnt instill confidence, and 14/15 spokes arent exactly weak anyway. 

You're talking about ~30g per wheel weight savings over a normal, stiffer spoke.. not worth it.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

TomH said:


> Arent campy hubs notoriously narrow? This might cause problems with the NDS going slack.


It works fine. I've had non-drive side revolutions for over a decade on a 10mm steel axle 9 speed Chorus hub at weights from 145 to over 215 pounds plus a 15 pound back pack.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Width*



TomH said:


> Arent campy hubs notoriously narrow?



No, they are not.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

My race wheels for the past couple of years:
DT revs for all spokes.
32h 3x Front and back with aluminum nipples
DA hubs 
Open Pro Rims

DT Revs will flex under someone tipping the scale at 200lbs. I'm about 165 race weight and I can actually feel the spokes flex when I'm climbing. It's a compromise in that I've raced 18F/20R in the past and have snapped a few too many spokes using bladed designs, haven't snapped any Revs yet.

As far as staying true I find they work well enough, but I usually have to spend more time truing and checking the spoke tension, then riding them and retruing a time or two and then I just ride the rest of the season.

For training however I wouldn't hassle a wheel with anything but 32h 3x DT Comps on the rear wheel. 

Personally I'd dump the brass nipples with either configuration. It's just added weight unless you're going to be exposing your wheels to harsh conditions.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> No, they are not.


Yes with only part of it being the 1mm wider free hub.

Campagnolo OS hubs are 15.2mm center to inside of the drive side flange versus at least 20.5mm for most Shimano hubs.

Non drive-side tension on a Ultegra 6500 hub laced cross-3 to a 32 hole Velocity Aerohead is 54% drive side with measurements of 38.4 and 20.8 left and right. Newer Shimano hubs are similar.

Non drive-side tension on a 1999-2006 Campagnolo OS hub (Record, Chorus, Centaur, Daytona) with the same rim/spoke configuration is 43% drive side with measurements of 35.16 and 15.2mm.

With a 110 kgf drive-side tension that yields 47 kgf non-drive side tension on the Campagnolo wheel versus 59 kgf on the Shimano wheel.

It's not a problem with sufficient tension but a Campagnolo wheel built too loose will be more likely to have problems than Shimano. Non-drive-side DT Revolutions (or any other spoke that started life with a 1.5mm diameter butted center section like the popular DT and Sapim aerospokes) will lessen any problems because they loose less tension as they shorten compared to thicker spokes, although bad wheel builders who have problems with tension may be more likely to have problems with the extra wind-up.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

TomH said:


> Arent campy hubs notoriously narrow? This might cause problems with the NDS going slack.


No, they are wide with a small DS offset... which is why the NDS might go slack. Heavier spokes on the DS would help this.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Don't we all love Campa for coming up with 11s, making the geometry even worse.... 

The Shimano 7800 hubs with it's 20.5mm DS flange distance was a step in the right direction
Of course even that was to good to last lol


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

DA isnt 20.5 anymore? My tiagras use that dimension.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

That's why Campy "invented" triplet lacing... to get back some NDS tension. 

The DA hubs weren't 20.5mm though... maybe 18.5.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

rruff said:


> That's why Campy "invented" triplet lacing... to get back some NDS tension.
> 
> The DA hubs weren't 20.5mm though... maybe 18.5.


Might have gotten carried away when I measured, but wider than any other std. production hubs

As for the triplet lacing.......Is it a good invention? Can it even be called an invention?
Of course if one are to use as thick spokes as campa do one need triplet, but even 
thou the distribution is 40%, NDS still contributes on the wheels stiffness and the node
distance decreases.

That said. 40% is so freakin low, that it brings us back to triplet, or sewing thread NDS....


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

rruff said:


> That's why Campy "invented" triplet lacing... to get back some NDS tension.
> 
> The DA hubs weren't 20.5mm though... maybe 18.5.


According to Shimano the 7403 and 7700 free hubs are 21.1, 7800/7801 20.55, 7850 21.1, and 7900 20.15.

http://bike.shimano.com/publish/con...rsys-0034-downloadFile.html/07) Hub Specs.pdf

As a Campagnolo cult member I couldn't confirm the veracity of those numbers without defiling myself (Maybe Shimano decided to measure to the outside of the flange instead of the inside).

OTOH, I've always been an irreverant sort of guy and happen to have both a 6600 rear hub and 8" dial calipers out in my workshop.

Not that it matters much - the 'bad' Campagnolo spacing seems fine for riders closer to 200 than 300 pounds with 32/36 spokes, and presumably Saris/Cycleops wouldn't accept the Campagnolo spacing for all their 15mm axle hubs if it caused problems with competent wheel builders.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Facts:
(all measurements are to the center of the flange)
Shimano is about 19mm on the drive side. I measured many hubs all from 105 up to Dura Ace and from more than one generation. The worst measurement I recorded was 18.8mm. Alchemy was able to squeeze that number to 19.6mm without any clearance issues. Shimano sure did their homework with their hubs which is why I still recommend them.

Campagnolo is 16.4mm to 16.7mm measured across many hubs.

Neither of those numbers have changed since 8 speed. 11 speed didn't change this geometry as their cassettes fit their 9/10 bodies. Alchemy got the flange out to 18.1mm without clearance issues. I don't know of any other Campagnolo that comes close to that which is why they are my top recommendation for Campagnolo wheels regardless of budget. They are worth the upgrade.

I have to consider increasing the spoke count for Campagnolo wheels with any other hub because of this. Otherwise, you won't get the same performance you can from comparable Shimano designed wheels. Another problem is that there are few Shimano designs out there. Many hub companies design their hubs to work with Campagnolo and Shimano spacing (DT being the most well known) so you don't get the Shimano spacing advantage. Chris King, White Industries, Tune and Alchemy are a few examples where the spacing advantage is considered.

To the OP:
It's not what I or many other wheel builders would build you. Some riders your size can make that wheel work if it's well built. Others will complain it's not stiff enough. Not being able to test the wheels out and not knowing about the build quality would make me recommend you pass on the deal.

-Eric


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## deoranjeleeuw (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback. A few tangents but I got the information I needed and decided to pass.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*11s impace*



Lectron said:


> Don't we all love Campa for coming up with 11s, making the geometry even worse.


Of course this ignores the fact that 9, 10, and 11s are all the same total cassette width and use the same hub. Only the spacing between cogs changed. But if it makes you feel better, then sure, 11s is a problem.


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

Kerry Irons said:


> Of course this ignores the fact that 9, 10, and 11s are all the same total cassette width and use the same hub. Only the spacing between cogs changed. But if it makes you feel better, then sure, 11s is a problem.


Please enlighten me KI, I might have forgotten

Why was it again that they discuss 11s compatibility on hubs/wheel?

:idea: Was it something with the biggest cog being moved toward NDS?
Naah....Can't be...that would mean I am right an K I wrong...And that never happens :arf:

I'll post a picture to make it easier to swallow that camel 










Again....Arrogance take you no-where.......Just makes you look stupid when you're wrong


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

It still hasn't made Campagnolo move their drive side flange.

-Eric


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## Lectron (May 29, 2005)

ergott said:


> It still hasn't made Campagnolo move their drive side flange.
> 
> -Eric


Not campa as they has so poor flange dist. DS already, but others have


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Hub flange spacing*



Lectron said:


> Again....Arrogance take you no-where.......Just makes you look stupid when you're wrong


And I thought we were talking about hub flange spacing.


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## dhtucker4 (Jul 7, 2004)

I'm the same weight (biker weight: helmet, shoes, clothes, etc.) as you are, and DT Revolution (14/17/14) caused a little flex, but not a lot (nothing to worry about). I had 24/32 wheels. Maybe you ought to try DT Aerolite or bladed spokes if you don't want any flex, but if you can get 14/15/14 DT spokes. Possibly, you should solder where the spokes cross (Revolution) and get a stiffer wheel).

Can you get Sapim spokes? They're stiffer than DT and last longer.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

dhtucker4 said:


> I'm the same weight (biker weight: helmet, shoes, clothes, etc.) as you are, and DT Revolution (14/17/14) caused a little flex, but not a lot (nothing to worry about). I had 24/32 wheels. Maybe you ought to try DT Aerolite or bladed spokes if you don't want any flex, but if you can get 14/15/14 DT spokes


Aerolites have the same cross-sectional area as DT Revolutions and therefore won't be any stiffer.


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