# "The way-yay-ting is the harrrrrrrr-dest part"



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, I did it: I sent my deposit check & order form off to Mr. Sachs today. If roadbikereview is still around in six years I'll post some pics.

I am *SO PSYCHED*!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2007)

Bob Ross said:


> Well, I did it: I sent my deposit check & order form off to Mr. Sachs today. If roadbikereview is still around in six years I'll post some pics.
> 
> I am *SO PSYCHED*!!!!!!!


Congrats.

Well done.

I hope you enjoy it.

( I'll be retired by the time you take delivery)


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Cool...welcome to the club.

Now go do something else......work on some other projects. It will help the time go by.

BTW, If you don't get a cool confirm in the mail in a week or so, reach out to him.

He's great to work with.

Are you planning to make the trip to Chester?

Len


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

You paid a deposit on a frame that will take six years to get?? 

Let me sell you a bridge.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

rnhood said:


> You paid a deposit on a frame that will take six years to get??
> 
> Let me sell you a bridge.


Trust me it's worth the wait.

Len


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

rnhood said:


> You paid a deposit on a frame that will take six years to get??
> 
> Let me sell you a bridge.


Aw, let him enjoy the moment.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

6 years really? 

What is Strong's waiting time?

Kish?

Vanilla?

I'm knee deep in pharmacology and hoping someone knows these off the top of their head since that is quickly becoming my motivation to get through this stuff.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2007)

Henry Porter said:


> 6 years really?
> 
> What is Strong's waiting time?
> 
> ...


Don't know Kish.

Strong is 18 weeks.

Vanilla is 5 years + , but he is no longer taking orders.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

What is Strong's waiting time? 18-20 weeks

Kish? Dunno, but I bet it's on the order of 3 months

Vanilla? 5-6 years last I heard.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

I should have figured you two would know. Back to P450 enzymes


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

Is that a carbon seatpost on that lugged beauty?

6 years...phew. They are pretty, but I wouldn't do it. How can you ride that thing knowing you have $$$ and six years wait time invested?


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

llama31 said:


> Is that a carbon seatpost on that lugged beauty?
> 
> 6 years...phew. They are pretty, but I wouldn't do it. How can you ride that thing knowing you have $$$ and six years wait time invested?


Yup.......modern racing bike.

It's 2007 Record 10 all around.

I ride it hard....its a bike...and it was only a 3 year wait for me. I was lucky.

Len


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Gorgeous bike for sure and, I would love to have one. But, is it worth a 5 or 6 year wait? Not for me. There are other framebuilders that can beat the sox off that delivery and, imho produce a frame of equal quality (though I don't have the first hand knowledge to debate this). For instance, the Spectrum 25th Anniversary frame is equally beautiful judging from pictures and, from what I understand Tom K. has an impeccable reputation much the same as Carl Strong, Peter Weigle, Roland, and the beat goes on. 

No doubt RS makes nice bikes. His reputation certainly precedes him. I just can't see waiting 5 or 6 years for a bike. With anything, there is a point where I get off the train. And, that type delivery is well beyond that point. 

Blindfold 10 guys on a test ride and, I wonder if over half would say they like the RS more than an off-the-shelf quality bike like the Rivendell Rambouillet or the such. 

I'm enjoying carbon right now. It's light, not really expensive, holds up well, performs beautifully, and when I'm through with it I either give it away or, throw it away - then I get something else. I don't buy for resale value, I buy for use. When I am through with something, I am literally through with it. I don't wait 5 years on something that will follow this path. But, everyone is different and, we all have different preferences. And, that RS is one beautiful bike so, I cast no stone if one wants to wait that long.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm there too, more than a quarter is too long for me. No bike is worth even a single year for me. And there are builders I would love to use a second time were it not for their growing queue time.

But, Sachs makes great bikes and even greater cocktail party talk and there are people much more patient than you and I.  

In six years Bob Ross will have a great bike and we won't. Well at least not a great bike by that particular builder. Am I jealous......just a tad. :smilewinkgrin:


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*To each their own.*



rnhood said:


> Gorgeous bike for sure and, I would love to have one. But, is it worth a 5 or 6 year wait? Not for me. There are other framebuilders that can beat the sox off that delivery and, imho produce a frame of equal quality (though I don't have the first hand knowledge to debate this). For instance, the Spectrum 25th Anniversary frame is equally beautiful judging from pictures and, from what I understand Tom K. has an impeccable reputation much the same as Carl Strong, Peter Weigle, Roland, and the beat goes on.
> 
> No doubt RS makes nice bikes. His reputation certainly precedes him. I just can't see waiting 5 or 6 years for a bike. With anything, there is a point where I get off the train. And, that type delivery is well beyond that point.
> 
> ...


There is another way to look at it.

I put a deposit down in Aug 2004, and then just moved on with other projects.

In Oct 2004, I put a deposit on a Kirk Fixie. I received that bike in April 2005. and am still riding the hell out of it.

In November 2006 I bought a pristine 15 YO Serotta Amminvarsary frame and built that up.

In Late November 2006, Richard called me to let me know that He was ready to start thinking about my bike. I went up to Chester in December for a fitting & Had my bike in early May, 2007. Exactly what he committed.

Point is.........Put a deposit down......go buy and ride one of your 5 year bikes & by the time Richard or Sacha White (at Vanilla) is ready, you'll be ready for another bike.

After 7 months, it's the bike I go to first.....after 35 years of riding, it's the best bike I've ever been on....by a wide margin......and I've ridden some pretty good bikes. Is he the only one that can build a bike like this, that fits like this, that tracks like this, that is as confidence inspiring as this........of course not. But I think he only has peers.....I can't imagine that anyone does it better.

If you can't wait, Richard has some up and coming frame-builders on his site that are worth persuing if you want a shorter wait..

But it is worth the wait.

Len


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## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

Len J said:


> Trust me it's worth the wait.
> 
> Len


I doubt it.

But, I only buy the ones that are delivered in 6... days.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2007)

The irony is,

Had I ordered a Sachs back in the '80's when I first started to become aware them, the wait probably would have been about 3 months, and a LOT less money.

Ain't hindsight grand?!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*It's great........*



sonex305 said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> But, I only buy the ones that are delivered in 6... days.


having choices....isn't it?

Len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

toomanybikes said:


> The irony is,
> 
> Had I ordered a Sachs back in the '80's when I first started to become aware them, the wait probably would have been about 3 months, and a LOT less money.
> 
> Ain't hindsight grand?!


I first rode one in 1984 & fell in love.

Ordered when my last kid got out of college in 2004, got the bike in 2007. I waited 23 years....what's a 6 year wait?

LOL

Len


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2007)

Len J said:


> I first rode one in 1984 & fell in love.
> 
> Ordered when my last kid got out of college in 2004, got the bike in 2007. I waited 23 years....what's a 6 year wait?
> 
> ...


I wasn't even married back then.

Woulda' just been another boy toy ..............


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

Henry Porter said:


> 6 years really?
> 
> What is Strong's waiting time?
> 
> ...


good questions. i wonder is a Zanconato or Ted Wojcik steel bike in the same class as a strong or kish or at least close? Anyone know thier wait time? I must admit I have been dreaming of a zank.

Henry, just remember, it you go into pathology you can almost forget all that pharmacology! Its what I did.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

In addition to the fact that I'm just a very patient person by nature, perhaps this simple revelation may put my willingness to wait six years into perspective:

If Richie's lead time was six _weeks_, I wouldn't be able to order a new bike this year. I can neither afford nor justify buying a new bike this year. It's only because I have all this time to save my hard earned cash -- time that I will happily spend riding my current bike into the ground -- that I can make a commitment to eventually spending that hard earned cash.

Mr.Sach's has inadvertantly taught me something my Dad wishes he had: the value of frugality and long-term savings.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

*hmmm...when you put it that way...*



Bob Ross said:


> In addition to the fact that I'm just a very patient person by nature, perhaps this simple revelation may put my willingness to wait six years into perspective:
> 
> If Richie's lead time was six _weeks_, I wouldn't be able to order a new bike this year. I can neither afford nor justify buying a new bike this year. It's only because I have all this time to save my hard earned cash -- time that I will happily spend riding my current bike into the ground -- that I can make a commitment to eventually spending that hard earned cash.
> 
> Mr.Sach's has inadvertantly taught me something my Dad wishes he had: the value of frugality and long-term savings.


...it's not so bad. So, out of curiosity, how much? I'm guessing at least $5k for the frame/fork and build. So you gotta squirrel away about a grand a year, give or take. Not too bad.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Look it up.*



llama31 said:


> ...it's not so bad. So, out of curiosity, how much? I'm guessing at least $5k for the frame/fork and build. So you gotta squirrel away about a grand a year, give or take. Not too bad.


http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachsfaq.html

Len


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

*the rub*



Bob Ross said:


> In addition to the fact that I'm just a very patient person by nature, perhaps this simple revelation may put my willingness to wait six years into perspective:
> 
> If Richie's lead time was six _weeks_, I wouldn't be able to order a new bike this year. I can neither afford nor justify buying a new bike this year. It's only because I have all this time to save my hard earned cash -- time that I will happily spend riding my current bike into the ground -- that I can make a commitment to eventually spending that hard earned cash.
> 
> Mr.Sach's has inadvertantly taught me something my Dad wishes he had: the value of frugality and long-term savings.


Here's the problem with that logic. When you finally get your Sachs, you won't pay the price they are now, but what they cost in 6 years. Who knows, a Sachs frame might sell for $10,000 in six years. Not much frugality there.

If I could order a Sachs or Vanilla and be guaranteed their current prices when they are finally built in 6 years, I would go ahead an buy one myself.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Len J said:


> Now go do something else......work on some other projects. It will help the time go by.


Great advice Len, thanks. If I give myself a goal/deadline (e.g., "gotta finish renovating the kitchen before you take delivery of the Sachs!") I'll probably be less aware of the passage of time _and_ more productive.




Len J said:


> Are you planning to make the trip to Chester?


Oh yeah! I live in NYC, just a quick drive away. I'll definitely visit Richie.


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## llama31 (Jan 13, 2006)

*wowsers!*



Len J said:


> http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachsfaq.html
> 
> Len


No more than other high end frames out there, but you don't even know how much. Assume typical inflation and you're talking $5k.

I've been thinking about another custom sometime in the next year, but I'll stick with frames in the $1500-$2000 range.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

tarwheel2 said:


> Here's the problem with that logic. When you finally get your Sachs, you won't pay the price they are now, but what they cost in 6 years. Who knows, a Sachs frame might sell for $10,000 in six years. Not much frugality there.


The frugality comes from my now having to squirrel away money for the next six years. Knowing that I'm saving for a Sachs prevents me from spending extravagently or impulsively on other things during that time.

I fully expect the price to be higher than it is now. Inflation is a given. Highly unlikely I'll be surprised when I get the bill. 



tarwheel2 said:


> If I could order a Sachs or Vanilla and be guaranteed their current prices when they are finally built in 6 years, I would go ahead an buy one myself.


And here's the problem with _that_ logic: Richie or Sasha's profit margin turns to crap & they go out of business.

I look at it this way: I _have_ guaranteed a price...I've guaranteed that I'll pay whatever the going price in 2014 is. If I waited another six months before placing an order, then I'd probably miss the comparatively affordable 2014 price and have to pay the no doubt much higher 2015 or 2016 price, whatever that might be.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

llama31 said:


> No more than other high end frames out there, but *you don't even know how much*. Assume typical inflation and you're talking $5k.
> 
> I've been thinking about another custom sometime in the next year, but I'll stick with frames in the $1500-$2000 range.


Richard has always been a stand up guy....with a 6 yr wait, he could be gouging and he's not.

Lot's of good bikes out there in the price range you are looking at.

Len


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## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

*I find your logic*



Bob Ross said:


> The frugality comes from my now having to squirrel away money for the next six years. Knowing that I'm saving for a Sachs prevents me from spending extravagently or impulsively on other things during that time.
> 
> I fully expect the price to be higher than it is now. Inflation is a given. Highly unlikely I'll be surprised when I get the bill.
> 
> ...


impeccable. You are obviously the perfect and logical purchaser of a place in line for a Sachs. I find these threads on the long waits for certain builders to be hysterical. That's what makes a market!!! For someone to call you out on this or to disparage e-richie or Sacha for their long wait times just strikes me as so illogical. Congrats, and i wonder how many times the plans in your head will change over the next six years? If it were me, i would probably have a thick folder of pix torn from various mags and printed from the internet by the time he called to start planning....

b21


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## WadePatton (Dec 29, 2006)

CONGRATULATIONS!

If I hit the lotto or otherwise fall into some $ in the next ten years, I'll be on the list with you. And I've never even seen a real live RS frame in person--much less ridden one. I've bought some other stuff from Richie, he's great to deal with. 

He knows six years is a long time, he lists several other builders on his site who may fill your order quicker. I didn't know Vanilla was up there too, that's spectacular! I'm all for the independent frame-builder making a good living while putting out fantastic fitted product. If nobody buys their stuff--they fold up, and who suffers?

I've waited 4 months or so for custom boots and have had a custom hat on order since July. Handmade stuff rules.:thumbsup: 

Current RS price/6 years equals $12.82 per week. Deposit not deducted, nor inflation corrected. So put back $15 a week and ride something special. Sign up and save up!


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## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

Man do you ride that thing or just hang it on a wall and admire the HE double hockey sticks out of it. WOW!


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## Scuzzo (Jul 21, 2006)

Total Posts: *7,720* (5.46 posts per day)


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Scuzzo said:


> Total Posts: *7,720* (5.46 posts per day)


Your point is..........................?


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## pigpen (Sep 28, 2005)

Or you can work your butt off, start racing cyclocross and get a team bike the same year.
One might have to relocate also.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I'm glad you asked Terry because I sure couldn't figure it out either....


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

The last time the topic of long wait times came up, I decided that I would no longer care about how people spent there cycling dollar. I mean really, what difference does it make to me that Bob Ross is willing to wait 6 years for his dream bike. Or that someone wants to spend $3000 on a set of carbon tubulars or $100 for a bottle cage or any of the other high priced items. If you have the money or are willing to wait, then more power too you. Hell, I've been thinking about a custom Strong for a couple of years and probably won't get to order it another year or so, so my wait time in effect is 3.5 years. 

Len, your bike makes me drool every single time I see it. 

Bob, I'm really excited for you. I'm looking forward to the pics in 6 years.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

My wife's a genius. Not only did she buy my RS as a gift, she won the ebay auction. It cost $1,100 or $1,200.


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## lampshade (Jul 18, 2002)

merckxman said:


> My wife's a genius. Not only did she buy my RS as a gift, she won the ebay auction. It cost $1,100 or $1,200.


Nice colors. Please post a pic of the whole thing.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Very nice.*



merckxman said:


> My wife's a genius. Not only did she buy my RS as a gift, she won the ebay auction. It cost $1,100 or $1,200.


both of them (Wife & bike) are keepers!  

Len'


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

Just think, by the time it arrives, you'll be able to put an electronic group on it with a huge battery pack nestled in there somewhere obscuring all the nice lug work.

brewster


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

*rationale*

I'm not criticizing your decision to order a Sachs, just pointing out that you're not saving any money by ordering now and waiting 6 years for delivery. If I had that kind of money (and patience), I might order one myself. However, I am too much of a tightwad, have too many other competing needs, and doubt if I would appreciate the fine distinctions that make a Sachs or Vanilla better than something like a Waterford that could be bought for a fraction of the cost and wait.

At some point it seems like the premium custom frame builders are either going to have (1) quit taking orders, or (2) greatly increase their prices to limit demand. These multi-year waiting times are kind of absurd. What happens if you wait 6 years, and Sachs decides to retire 5-1/2 years from now? Or what if he finally gets wise, and ups his prices to $10,000 per frame? What if he starts taking money "under the table" from rich dudes willing to pay extra bucks to get a frame without the long wait? What if 6 years turns into 8 years?


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Another way to look at it......*



tarwheel2 said:


> What happens if you wait 6 years, and Sachs decides to retire 5-1/2 years from now? Or what if he finally gets wise, and ups his prices to $10,000 per frame? What if he starts taking money "under the table" from rich dudes willing to pay extra bucks to get a frame without the long wait? What if 6 years turns into 8 years?


If I didn't trust the builder based on the way he has behaved in the past.......I wouldn't risk a deposit on any frame. With a 6 year wait, I would need to trust him even more.

Neither Richard or Sacha have done anything (that I know of) that has been anything other than up-front, honest and with high integrity.

I think , at least for these 2 you are making up ghosts.

Len


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

that sachs bike is stunning. kudos to nailing simple elegance and a clean design. Phillip Starck would be proud of you.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

any idea how long a zanconato wait is?

is a sachs that much better than a strong or zank?


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

tarwheel2 said:


> I'm not criticizing your decision to order a Sachs, just pointing out that you're not saving any money by ordering now and waiting 6 years for delivery.



I'm not sure what you mean by that, but there are two potential ways that I _am_ saving money by ordering now and waiting 6 years for delivery:

1) Since I can't order a Sachs last year or ten years ago (time travel being currently impossible) my choices are either order now, or order some time in the future. Ordering now at least guarantees that I will pay whatever Sachs is selling the frame for at the time when my name comes up in the queue...which is ostensibly 6 years from now. For the sake of argument let's guess that number will be $7,000. 

Ordering some time in the future -- let's say a year or two from now -- means that the best I can hope for is to pay whatever Sachs is selling the frame for at the time when my name comes up in the queue, which will be a year or two (at least) _more than_ 6 years from now...and at the rate of inflation (as well as at the observable rate that Sachs frames have historically increased in price) that means probably $400-800 more than that $7,000 guesstimate. 

So I'm saving $400-800 by ordering now rather than waiting.

2) I have been socking away money every month in an interest-bearing bank account which I set up specifically to sequester money for this bike. Every 12 months I plan to convert that balance to a high-yeild CD with a negatively-telescoping maturity date (i.e., 5 years, 4 years, 3 years, etc.) such that in 6 years when my name comes up in Sachs' queue, not only have I literally saved the money to buy the bike, but that saved money has also yielded at least 5% interest.

So I'm not only literally saving the money required to make the purchase, I'm also earning money.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I think your logic makes sense.

But I think in my case an interesting conundrum comes up. 

I understood that Sacha was allowing prices to float for the duration of the wait time. Didn't understand that Sachs was doing it too. Frankly, I understand the business implications of rising prices, but I don't agree that this should be a free market situation that basically puts all the burden on the buyer. I honestly think that's unreasonable. It's not the way the futures markets work and yet essentially you're speculating in bicycle futures without the benefit of the buy price guarantee. In my mind, the right way to do it would be to share the risk - tell the consumer right now that the seller expects the price to advance by 10% (or some other number) per year and that therefore you will pay some amount at that time. What's the point of advertising a selling price today and telling you it's "for reference only"?

Anyway, that brings me back to me - I have very fixed views on what I am willing to pay for all things bicycle. I will never own a pair of $2000+ wheels or a $300 saddle. Aside from my ADD and inability to wait more than 6 months, I can really see a situation where the frame price would be well beyond my obscenity threshold by the time it came around. And that would be a shame. Far better I think to just tell the consumer right now what price their deposit buys them, no hard feelings in 2014.


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## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

*Zank*



vanjr said:


> any idea how long a zanconato wait is?
> 
> is a sachs that much better than a strong or zank?


is more of the up and comer list right now with reasonable lead times I think. A few years from now you will probably see the "wish I signed up earlier" posts. The second part of your question I would imagine (I own only a Strong which was not custom made for me--it is delightful) would be difficult to answer even for someone that owned each. What can be said is that each of them makes bikes of the highest quality, owners rave about them when they ride them and say working with each is a pleasure, and that they are admirers of each other's work. I would be happy to work with any of them.....and i would throw Kirk and Goodrich and a bunch of others into the mix too. YMMV


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

terry b said:


> I think your logic makes sense.
> 
> But I think in my case an interesting conundrum comes up.
> 
> ...


Supply & demand......it's hard to criticize what someone is doing who has a 6 year waiting list based on what he is doing. The change you suggest wouldn't get you on the list I suspect, so what is gained? If he was trying to generate demand, I might see your point.....but he doesn't need to...buyers have voted with their deposits.

Len


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## WadePatton (Dec 29, 2006)

tarwheel2 said:


> and doubt if I would appreciate the fine distinctions that make a Sachs or Vanilla better than something like a Waterford that could be bought for a fraction of the cost and wait.


there are dozens of builders waiting for your order with shorter lead times.


tarwheel2 said:


> At some point it seems like the premium custom frame builders are either going to have (1) quit taking orders, or (2) greatly increase their prices to limit demand. These multi-year waiting times are kind of absurd.


isn't it up to the builder to make these decisions? absurdity may be in the eye of the beholder.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I understand that fully and as long as he has people open to speculating on prices 6 years from now and willing to pay whatever the market will bear, there is no reason to change the business model. And the fact that I don't like really doesn't matter one whit.

Businesses like this fascinate me, which is why I was trying to start a conversation. Consumers fascinate me even more, te is such a universe. The people I work with think I'm insane to pay what I pay and wait what I wait. In turn I think people who are willing to wait 6 years to pay "whatever" are crazy. I'm sure those people in turn have their limits. It's all about thresholds.

Was talking to a friend yesterday who just ordered two GPSs and another SLR. He's a GPS addict and this is his second SLR. We got talking about whether it was foolish to own multiple SLRs (I have 2 and I'm craving 2 more) and I decided that the technology changes and they're all different and having many is no big deal, as long as the CU bursar doesn't kick my kids out of school. He offered that perhaps we had too much money.  Maybe it just boils down to that.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

terry b said:


> I understand that fully and as long as he has people open to speculating on prices 6 years from now and willing to pay whatever the market will bear, there is no reason to change the business model. And the fact that I don't like really doesn't matter one whit.
> 
> Businesses like this fascinate me, which is why I was trying to start a conversation. Consumers fascinate me even more, te is such a universe. The people I work with think I'm insane to pay what I pay and wait what I wait. In turn I think people who are willing to wait 6 years to pay "whatever" are crazy. I'm sure those people in turn have their limits. It's all about thresholds.
> 
> Was talking to a friend yesterday who just ordered two GPSs and another SLR. He's a GPS addict and this is his second SLR. We got talking about whether it was foolish to own multiple SLRs (I have 2 and I'm craving 2 more) and I decided that the technology changes and they're all different and having many is no big deal, as long as the CU bursar doesn't kick my kids out of school. He offered that perhaps we had too much money.  Maybe it just boils down to that.


Agree completely....the only thing I would emphasize is the degree of trust involved. I waited almost 3 years for my Sachs. I never worried once about Richard taking crazy advantage of his captive waiting list to gouge prices. Never once. I'd been watching him for years and he had always priced his frames slightly below the high end stock frames available in the market......I thought that was a reasonable market dynamic. Did I have any assurance he wouldn't gouge? Of course not, If he "gouged" me for more than my deposit (in my opinion), I could have walked....but I had no fear that that was going to happen.

Smaller dealers require bigger deposits, so I figured the amount I had at risk was pretty small.....realtivly.

You pay your money and take your chances.

Len


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I don't think gouging is even a consideration - all these guys appear to be completely honest and forthright.

It's more about what you're really willing to pay, at the personal level. You get in line at $4300 and 2014 comes around and it's $7900. No way I'd pay $7900 for a frame, even 6 years from now. Now I've waited 6 years for that dream bike and suddenly it's outside the realm of what you can bring myself to pay. I don't think there is any dishonesty there - let's assume that the profit margin has held constant and the increase is due purely to consumables and overhead.

That's why I was arguing for a more up front approach - Terry, it's going to cost you $7900 in 2014. Easy for me to make that choice today. Seems like the other approach _could _ lead to some disappointment down the road. And it is a loooong road to delivery. I'd rather know and deal with the sticker shock up front. Particularly if this was a situation where you were saving the money to buy the thing. Hate to come up $2000 short at the end.

But as you've said, the line is long and there are plenty of people willing to roll those bones.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

terry b said:


> It's more about what you're really willing to pay, at the personal level. You get in line at $4300 and 2014 comes around and it's $7900. *No way I'd pay $7900 for a frame, even 6 years from now*.



It's easy to say that now...but what if _every_ framebuilder raised their prices commensurately over that same time period, such that $7900 was the going rate for _any_ high quality frame? If in 2014 an entry-level Huffy is going for $3200, $7900 doesn't seem so outrageous for a top of the line, hand-crafted work of art. If six years from now you look around and _no one_ is selling bike frames for what you're willing to pay at the personal level, what are you going to do, stop buying bikes?


(And what if there were no hypothetical situations...?)


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

terry b said:


> I don't think gouging is even a consideration - all these guys appear to be completely honest and forthright.
> 
> It's more about what you're really willing to pay, at the personal level. You get in line at $4300 and 2014 comes around and it's $7900. No way I'd pay $7900 for a frame, even 6 years from now. Now I've waited 6 years for that dream bike and suddenly it's outside the realm of what you can bring myself to pay. I don't think there is any dishonesty there - let's assume that the profit margin has held constant and the increase is due purely to consumables and overhead.
> 
> ...


I don't know...look at what you were willing to pay for a bike 6 years ago & compare that to today.

Len


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Len J said:


> I don't know...look at what you were willing to pay for a bike 6 years ago & compare that to today.
> 
> Len


I did that very thing before wading into this discussion.

First "fancy" bike I bought was my MxL back in 1999. Paid $1875 for the frame. And I had a relatively hard time choking that down at the time, at least to the extent that I overthink all expensive items. Since then pretty much everything I've purchase has been $1800 or less, including the customs by the big names that were right in the $1700 range. This year was the first time I spent more than $3000 for a frame. And I don't think there is anything on the market that is going to tempt me beyond that, because a $4000 frame hits a very strong obscenity threshold for me. 

6 years from now - I may be naive, but I don't think I am going to get beyond that price. I know time marches on, but 5,6 or $7000 just seems outrageous to me. A Meivici today at $8000 is inconceivable, nothing could make me pay that much. And if the day comes that all good custom frames are in that price range - I'm afraid I'm done.

Rather, I think there is a sliding scale of what we're willing to spend. Time marches on and prices go up and we deal with it. But there is a finite point where we hit a ceiling. I think mine is clear for most things. It's why I'm not living in a million dollar house and driving a $125,000 automobile. Financially - no problem. Philosophically - ack!


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## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

Bob Ross said:


> It's easy to say that now...but what if _every_ framebuilder raised their prices commensurately over that same time period, such that $7900 was the going rate for _any_ high quality frame? If in 2014 an entry-level Huffy is going for $3200, $7900 doesn't seem so outrageous for a top of the line, hand-crafted work of art. If six years from now you look around and _no one_ is selling bike frames for what you're willing to pay at the personal level, what are you going to do, stop buying bikes?
> 
> 
> (And what if there were no hypothetical situations...?)



What a load of crap. The guy welds a dozen pieces of metal together and there's fools like you paying $5000 in todays prices for his service AND willing to wait 6 years for it. Work of art my ass. It's not like he's painting the next Mona Lisa.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

terry b said:


> I did that very thing before wading into this discussion.
> 
> First "fancy" bike I bought was my MxL back in 1999. Paid $1875 for the frame. And I had a relatively hard time choking that down at the time, at least to the extent that I overthink all expensive items. Since then pretty much everything I've purchase has been $1800 or less, including the customs by the big names that were right in the $1700 range. This year was the first time I spent more than $3000 for a frame. And I don't think there is anything on the market that is going to tempt me beyond that, because a $4000 frame hits a very strong obscenity threshold for me.
> 
> ...


so you paid & $1875 with fork and now you are willing to pay $3,000 (Without the fork?).....sounds like inflation would take that number to over $5,000 to $6,000 (with fork) in 6 years or so and the high end bike market has increased more dramaticially than inflation over the last few years..

We should page mark this and revisit it in 2014.  

5 years ago, I couldn't imagine paying $3,500 for a frame & fork....but I did this year.

I asked myself the question....would I be buying a high end (but not highest end price wise) bike when the sachs was due....if so, I ordered.

len


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

jpap said:


> What a load of crap. The guy welds a dozen pieces of metal together and there's fools like you paying $5000 in todays prices for his service AND willing to wait 6 years for it. Work of art my ass. It's not like he's painting the next Mona Lisa.


well that sounds like an informed decision...have you ridden one?

His Frame & Fork at $4,000 is cheaper than a high end Time, or Colnago, Or many other frames.

Buy what you like, ride what you like...the name calling is uncalled for.

Len


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

The 3k frame this year was frame/fork.

We should page mark this and revisit it in 2014.  

Agreed.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Over the course of the last 10 years, my willingness to part with money has about doubled. But it went from a relatively hard purchase to a really, next to impossible purchase. I just don't see myself dropping $7000 for a frame, it's too hard to get my head around. I mean, the Meivici sits there beckoning to me and I say "no way." Wonderful bike, love to have one but $7000 - not a chance.

Had a debate with a builder this year about a project I want to do. It ran up to about $4000 and I took it back by changing frame materials. I just could not go there, and it was only incrementally more expensive than a bike I did earlier in the year.

It's a case of perceived value for me. I can wrap my head around $3500 for a frame/fork. I cannot wrap my head around $4000 for wheels and I never will. Heck, I can't wrap my head around $1000 for wheels. So $7000 seems insane, even thinking about inflation. May be that I will soon be done with expensive bikes, because when they get there it's going to be a stretch. I seem to have fixed stops when it comes to this stuff that I have slowly approached over the course of my buying career.

But we'll see, never say never right?


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

jpap said:


> What a load of crap. The guy welds a dozen pieces of metal together and there's fools like you paying $5000 in todays prices for his service AND willing to wait 6 years for it. Work of art my ass. It's not like he's painting the next Mona Lisa.


I'd be willing to bet $10 that you piss money away on something that I'd consider the stupidest thing on the planet.

We all have interests and we all are willing to drop money on them. Calling someone a fool in a discussion like this I think is uncalled for and unkind.


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## TACSTS (Feb 4, 2004)

I guess I'll add a couple comments after following this thread for the past couple of days. $4k is a LOT for a frame/fork, I wholeheartedly agree. That said I'm glad I put a deposit down in June, because I perceive a Sachs as the best in his class, (ie. lugged racing frames) and why waste money on something that I'm always going to think of as "second rate". Furthermore, I'm only 24 and have been going to school for a while now and working really hard to get an education that will afford me the ability to pay $4k for a bike I really want. It's going to be a couple year belated graduation gift to myself. I should have what I owe on student loans paid off by then, and other than a car payment I should have very little debt. Maybe it's not the most responsible decision to put down a deposit for such an expensive item now, but there have been plenty of times when I'm feeling really burnt out from school and down, when a few minutes looking at e-Richie's Flickr gallery gets me motivated again. Also when you figure that I'll have the bike before I'm 30, the $/mile over my cycling "life" will be pretty reasonable. Heck I'm sure some of my classmates have spent almost $4k on alcohol in college, so as a non-drinker it's all about even, right?  

If by the time my name comes up the price is above my financial obscenity level ($4k is making me itchy as it is) I'll just eat the deposit and someone behind me will get their bike just a bit earlier. No big deal.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

His bikes are $4000 because he is semi retired. He is building only 5/6 frames a month. Not many compared to other builders. 
Anybody who is perceived as the best at their craft commands the most dollars. If that allows him to not to have to work his a$$ off, who is to complain? I think Strong is making 1.5 bikes a day if I remember correctly. Tig is probably a faster medium than lugged frames, but what do I know.


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## Sacha White (May 25, 2005)

AlexCad5 said:


> His bikes are $4000 because he is semi retired. He is building only 5/6 frames a month. Not many compared to other builders.
> Anybody who is perceived as the best at their craft commands the most dollars. If that allows him to not to have to work his a$$ off, who is to complain? I think Strong is making 1.5 bikes a day if I remember correctly. Tig is probably a faster medium than lugged frames, but what do I know.


5-6 lugged frame +forks a month with the level of finish we are talking about is a LOT. 20-25 hours per frame, plus building up the bikes, shipping, customer service, etc.

This is no slack pace.

.

-Sacha


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Err... Can someone please explain to me why it takes 5-6 YEARS to get a frame????!! :mad2:

It's a heck of a loooooooonnnggg time to say the least IMHO. 

What takes so long? So many people place orders? What else? I already think it's long enough waiting about 2 months for a frame. 

What about the custom carbon frames like Parlee or such? 

Thanks. 

I guess on the bright side, you got more time to save money for it. A real long time. Henry Porter'd be a doctor by then!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*I's pretty simple really...........*



uzziefly said:


> Err... Can someone please explain to me why it takes 5-6 YEARS to get a frame????!! :mad2:
> 
> It's a heck of a loooooooonnnggg time to say the least IMHO.
> 
> What takes so long? So many people place orders? What else? I already think it's long enough waiting about 2 months for a frame.


You make 5 to 6 complete frame/forks per month or say 65/year.

You have people give you deposits for 400 orders. At that pace it will take you 6 years to deliver the latest frame ordered.

People get all worked up about this, but it only takes an additional 65 additional orders (Over the normal order flow) or so for the backlog to go up by a year.

Len


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## Sacha White (May 25, 2005)

One thing I would add to Len's post

The builders that we are talking about, (with multi year wait lists) choose to be the builder of their bikes, rather than bring in a staff to do the work.

The first option is a craftsman persuing his craft, and selling a piece of his life as a builder. The second option is a small production company building and selling bikes based on the power of it's brand. These do not yield the same machine.

Both are fine options, just different.

And both options exist for the public to choose from. Life is good.



Cheers,

Sacha


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Len J said:


> You make 5 to 6 complete frame/forks per month or say 65/year.
> 
> You have people give you deposits for 400 orders. At that pace it will take you 6 years to deliver the latest frame ordered.
> 
> ...





Sacha White said:


> One thing I would add to Len's post
> 
> The builders that we are talking about, (with multi year wait lists) choose to be the builder of their bikes, rather than bring in a staff to do the work.
> 
> ...


So these guys practically also have no staff to help them build the bikes then I take it. But, for Parlee and such, whilst they are custom, they have a group of makers and such who do the job too I guess?

Which brings me to the question why these guys don't get people to help them out maybe? I mean, sure, each frame is handcrafted perhaps, but aren't the frames of say a Mercx and such 'custom' to an extent that they have readily available sizes so they used a mould? If so, what's the difference between a custom carbon frame and a Vanilla then?

Lastly, how did these guys build a name for themselves and have many people order their bikes? Thanks. 

I have thought about a Strong and such but I know the wait would just tick me off. Either that or I'd forget I'm waiting till I get it maybe.


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## TACSTS (Feb 4, 2004)

Some people just don't "get" the concept of custom bikes and some don't "get" stock bikes. It's alright, there are makers or manufacturers to satisfy each. 

With the exception of VERY few models, I have little to no interest in an off-the-shelf bike. For one, I'm a bit taller than average and few stock models have a geometry that I need. So I could rush out and bring home a Tarmac/Madone/et al and ride it TODAY but it would fit me like crap so is that better than waiting a few months for something custom fitted to me? Not in my opinion. Granted this doesn't really factor in the Sachs/Vanilla type custom builders, with longer waits, but there are plenty of custom builders in the 3-6 month time frame that I think is perfectly reasonable. Heck, when Madone's came out a couple of years ago it wasn't uncommon for people to wait several months for theirs to come in. That to me is more crazy, waiting more than a week for a stock bike. 

I also think there is a certain intangible benefit from a hand-crafted frame built by someone that is a real cyclist. Not that middle-aged women in Waterloo, WI can't build a fine bike, but it's just not the same, to me. 

Bottom line: don't want to wait? Then just don't!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

uzziefly said:


> So these guys practically also have no staff to help them build the bikes then I take it. But, for Parlee and such, whilst they are custom, they have a group of makers and such who do the job too I guess?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Call Carl and find out how long the wait is...I don't think it's that long. Sachs & Vanilla are the exceptions, not the rule.

One last thing......I think if you added up the entire backlog for all the well known custom builders you would probably have less than 1,500 total bikes.......and those were probably ordered by less than 1,000 individuals. How many days does it take for specialized to sell that many bikes? We make a big deal of their backlog but we really are talking about a very low number of bikes.

Len


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

It was 18-20 weeks when I placed my order, 5 weeks ago.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I have never ordered a custom frame. I was fortunate in the case of the Pegoretti I bought on the Serotta forum. My first Pegoretti was a stock 60cm with a 58.5 top tube. I was limited to a 25mm conti tire on the rear. The Peg I found in the Serotta forum had been a custom order 60 with a 60 top tube. The bike was longer with greater tire clearance (I like riding fat 25mm tires in the winter). It is what I would have ordered. It was just pure luck I found it. With Dario Pegoretti's illness, the wait time is longer for custom but it is still around a year. 

I will retire from the Navy in either three or six years from now. I guess I should decide now if I want a Vanilla, Kirk, or Sachs. I want a custom steel from an American builder. I don't know if I will ever race again, but I want to enjoy what I ride.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

For a bicycle nut, the craftsmanship that goes into a meticulous build is certainly one to be appreciated. I'm a proponent for fine handcrafted items from people who care. I think that is what is forgotten in the age of mass assembly. The fact these can be ridden and enjoyed makes the $$ a good return. I don't see a problem in a wait time but there is that timeline for gratification... 

I enjoy seeing these builds and while I won't likely buy a custom, it brings me the warm fuzzies to see others enjoying their rides.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

^^ yeah good point...

while we are talking projected cost and economics - personally i think 6 years is nuts.... not to be negative but what happens if you are injured? have a bad accident? go off cycling? who knows? byebye deposit ! if not worse... be bound to a 5k+ deal u no longer desire.

for me tho.. in 6 years who knows where frames will be? i guess ISP carbon will be the norm for a lot less money. I believe the carbon market is not yet matured... frames that are aero, stiff, sub 900g and prolly had for $1k or less ... that's the point i'm waiting for to get into carbon. of course that is a pretty meaningless argument for someone into custom steel...

spaking of which.. that blue and white frame looked pretty nice... full pics damnit !!


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

see: http://www.richardsachs.com/riders/sn10618.html



lampshade said:


> Nice colors. Please post a pic of the whole thing.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Sure....*

Just slap some tubes together.



jpap said:


> What a load of crap. The guy welds a dozen pieces of metal together and there's fools like you paying $5000 in todays prices for his service AND willing to wait 6 years for it. Work of art my ass. It's not like he's painting the next Mona Lisa.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

Len J said:


> well that sounds like an informed decision...have you ridden one?
> 
> His Frame & Fork at $4,000 is cheaper than a high end Time, or Colnago, Or many other frames.
> 
> Len


 I ordered a new steel frame from Spectrum-Cycles in May; I should receive it this month
or in Jan. , total price $ 2,745.00; Is the quality of this frame any less than an RS ? 
Not on your life!


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## mcoven (Oct 3, 2005)

*Good on you, Bob!!*

Good on you, Bob!!

If you see another one cruising the loop in Cental Park, that'll be me! (sometimes with 2 kids in tow)... 

Enjoy the anticipation!!!! I'm sure you'll love yours as much as I love mine!!:thumbsup:

BTW... Wife & I are in line for Vanillas as well... crazy??... just love bikes (met my wife on one)!!


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## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

terry b said:


> I'd be willing to bet $10 that you piss money away on something that I'd consider the stupidest thing on the planet.
> 
> We all have interests and we all are willing to drop money on them. Calling someone a fool in a discussion like this I think is uncalled for and unkind.



The bulk of money goes to provide for my family. If thats the stupidest thing ever then guilty as charged. You will obviously not agree with me because you have 500 bikes in your garage but a Sachs is no better than any other frame from a reputable builder. Spectrum, Strong, Zank etc. Are you telling me that these frames are half as good as a Sachs. As someone else said put an experienced rider on an unmarked frame from a dozen of the top builders and I will bet you that $10 that no one will distinguish the Sachs from the Strong or the Zank. I'm not saying the man doesn't build good frames but this mythical god like status some of you bestow on these guys is just laughable. It's a free market society we live in and a Sachs is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and obviously there are plenty putting down the big bucks and willing to wait 6 years but don't try and justify your decision by saying it's the best this and the best that. I suppose though that after paying top dollar and waiting so long you need to justify your decision so if you say a Sachs is the BEST bike ever made often enough then you actually might beleive it.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

mcoven said:


> If you see another one cruising the loop in Cental Park, that'll be me!


Christy Guzzetta says he rides in the park on a Sachs also (though I've yet to see him on anything besides his Merckx AXM). We can start a cycle gang!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

jpap said:


> The bulk of money goes to provide for my family. If thats the stupidest thing ever then guilty as charged. You will obviously not agree with me because you have 500 bikes in your garage but a Sachs is no better than any other frame from a reputable builder. Spectrum, Strong, Zank etc. Are you telling me that these frames are half as good as a Sachs. As someone else said put an experienced rider on an unmarked frame from a dozen of the top builders and I will bet you that $10 that no one will distinguish the Sachs from the Strong or the Zank. I'm not saying the man doesn't build good frames but this mythical god like status some of you bestow on these guys is just laughable. It's a free market society we live in and a Sachs is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and obviously there are plenty putting down the big bucks and willing to wait 6 years but don't try and justify your decision by saying it's the best this and the best that. I suppose though that after paying top dollar and waiting so long you need to justify your decision so if you say a Sachs is the BEST bike ever made often enough then you actually might beleive it.


Have you ridden one? Have you ever even sat on one?
Have you ridden a zank or a strong?

I thought not.

Len


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2007)

jpap said:


> The bulk of money goes to provide for my family. If thats the stupidest thing ever then guilty as charged. You will obviously not agree with me because you have 500 bikes in your garage but a Sachs is no better than any other frame from a reputable builder. Spectrum, Strong, Zank etc. Are you telling me that these frames are half as good as a Sachs. As someone else said put an experienced rider on an unmarked frame from a dozen of the top builders and I will bet you that $10 that no one will distinguish the Sachs from the Strong or the Zank. I'm not saying the man doesn't build good frames but this mythical god like status some of you bestow on these guys is just laughable. It's a free market society we live in and a Sachs is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and obviously there are plenty putting down the big bucks and willing to wait 6 years but don't try and justify your decision by saying it's the best this and the best that. I suppose though that after paying top dollar and waiting so long you need to justify your decision so if you say a Sachs is the BEST bike ever made often enough then you actually might beleive it.


I gotta' tell you here, you have long since crossed the line on anything approaching constructive criticism or counter thought.

You are coming across as angry and bitter and I don't see why.

We get that you won't buy a Sachs. Fine.


However, this thread started because Bob Ross put his money down after a long careful thought process and is happy and excited about it.

Good for him, I am happy for him.

If you can't even offer a congrats - then keep your thoughts to yourself if all you have to offer instead is the bitter attacks.

Really not needed.

Really not wanted.

Really sad and churlish.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I don't own a Sachs, and if you've read anything I have said in this thread you know that we agree - waiting that long for a bike seems really silly - _to me._

And, you didn't see me arguing that his products are better or worth the cost, particularly the hypothetical $7000 that was getting thrown around. In my mind, beyond a certain point they're all good. I've had that on-line position for years.

My point was - we all have guilty pleasures and we're all willing to spend some discretionary cash to enjoy ourselves. It should come as no surprise that most of my income goes to supporting my family too. What with 2 kids in a major university living in separate apartments.

Rather, and it doesn't matter how much it is, I'm betting that every person has some indulgence that others would find silly. Yet we don't go around calling people "fools" because they enjoy themselves. Personally, I find drinking to be a true waste of money, yet I don't wade into Lounge threads about cocktails and tell people that they are stupid. Ditto expensive wheels, full team kit, fancy dog breeds, audiophile equipment and all the other stuff people like.

I ws only saying one thing to you - don't be insulting people because you don't agree with their purchasing choices or their willingness to wait 6 years. It's fine to express amazement that people will do things you don't agree with. It's another to call them fools.


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## homebrew (Oct 28, 2004)

Hats off to you! I was going crazy wiating the ten WEEKS for my IF 953 SSR to be built. After two weeks I purchased a used IF Planet X steel to hold me over. Jeez, you make me look bad


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## Sacha White (May 25, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> So these guys practically also have no staff to help them build the bikes then I take it. But, for Parlee and such, whilst they are custom, they have a group of makers and such who do the job too I guess?
> 
> Which brings me to the question why these guys don't get people to help them out maybe? I mean, sure, each frame is handcrafted perhaps, but aren't the frames of say a Mercx and such 'custom' to an extent that they have readily available sizes so they used a mould? If so, what's the difference between a custom carbon frame and a Vanilla then?
> 
> Lastly, how did these guys build a name for themselves and have many people order their bikes? Thanks.


I can only speak for myself (and Vanilla).

Short version:

I got into building bikes, because I wanted to build bikes. Not because I wanted to be the manager of a larger shop, where other people are building bikes.


Long version (take it with a grain of salt. I just want to be thorough.):

I got into building bikes, because I wanted to build bikes. Not because I wanted to be the manager of a larger shop, where other people are building bikes.

I consciously choose to keep my company small and production low.

Ever since demand started to ramp up, I have thought about the value of increased production, and although I know that there are people out there who want a Vanilla, like *tommorow *, there are others who are willing to wait, because they know that the process that is in place is the one that produces the very bike that they are lusting after.

this process includes me fitting each customer and designing the frame to have a balanced ride with that specific fit.

Also each of my bikes are designed and built from scratch, ie; no template. My aesthetic and concept design process usually evolves as I build. Things like lug design, curves in the stays (and other tube shaping), dropout transition treatment are all decisions that I make as I am building. This is the best way I have found to build each bike with the right amount of flavor.

The component spec is a huge part of the "whole bike". Of course if we are talking about a road bike, the decisions are fairly straight forward (and most of what's available is common knowledge), but for something like a hot foul weather fixed gear commuter, randonee, or touring bike there is a lot of thought that goes into the full integration of the machine.

I typically design each paint scheme for my customers too. This plays a huge role in making each of my bikes both one of a kind and consistent with the brand/ family as a whole.

Having said all of that, alot of what happens in a "framebuilding business' is less "frame building" and more "business". Frame prep, parts ordering, bike assembly, packing and shipping, customer service, etc. For all of this work I do have a staff. This way I can focus on what I feel is the most important roll for me. Building.

to answer your question about reputation, and where customers come from;

Every bike that I have built, I have considered an ambassador, (or sales representative) for Vanilla. I have made each one as nice as it can be, because I wanted my bikes to sell them selves. That and a good website, with pictures that really show the work.

-Sacha


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

Great response Sasha. It shows a lot about you as a builder. Artisan builder and not mega-corporate profit driven builder.

So what is your official wait period, in your estimation?


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## Sacha White (May 25, 2005)

MIN in PDX said:


> Great response Sasha. It shows a lot about you as a builder. Artisan builder and not mega-corporate profit driven builder.


thanks.



MIN in PDX said:


> So what is your official wait period, in your estimation?


5 years.

I kind of feel like I am hijacking BobRoss' thread, which I don't want to do.

Bob, I am excited for you that you are getting a Sachs. I wish I was too!


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

Sacha White said:


> Bob, I am excited for you that you are getting a Sachs. I wish I was too!


As much as I wish I was getting a Vanilla commuter?


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

Sacha White said:


> I can only speak for myself (and Vanilla).
> 
> Short version:
> 
> ...


I can't figure out why you would feel the need to come on here and explain/defend the business model you have chosen to operate with. I mean it is YOUR business. And you are obviously running it the way that makes you happiest. If you were a musician or something, people wouldn't be freaking out demanding that you put out more records. You need to have a life too. 

But I gotta say I'm always appreciative when a builder or company posts on here. It shows a true passion and care for their product. We could all use more of that.


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

Sacha White said:


> Bob, I am excited for you that you are getting a Sachs. I wish I was too!





zank said:


> As much as I wish I was getting a Vanilla commuter?


Can an e-richie post be far behind


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

innergel said:


> Can an e-richie post be far behind


or Dave Kirk?

Len


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## Sacha White (May 25, 2005)

innergel said:


> I can't figure out why you would feel the need to come on here and explain/defend the business model you have chosen to operate with. I mean it is YOUR business. And you are obviously running it the way that makes you happiest. If you were a musician or something, people wouldn't be freaking out demanding that you put out more records. You need to have a life too.
> 
> But I gotta say I'm always appreciative when a builder or company posts on here. It shows a true passion and care for their product. We could all use more of that.


 There is a lot of mystery behind this kind of "small" and "slow" business model. we've been taught that success means "bigger and bigger" and "more and more".

I come in, not to defend my choices, but to offer a perspective straight from the source.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

In only a few years you have managed to build a transcendent brand by giving people precisely what they asked for (and more.)

You should be very proud of that accomplishment.


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## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

*And you said it well*



Sacha White said:


> There is a lot of mystery behind this kind of "small" and "slow" business model. we've been taught that success means "bigger and bigger" and "more and more".
> 
> I come in, not to defend my choices, but to offer a perspective straight from the source.


You appear to be as eloquent with a keyboard as you are talented in your shop. 

Don't know why people have such a hard time relating to a craftsman that chooses to build his work one piece at a time with "old world" attention to detail. Usually artisans like that are revered. The idea that some think that it would be a step up for you to start an assembly line process that would still produce superior frames but not up to your present exacting standards puzzles me. To each their own...personally I think it would be great if all the top builders had five year waiting lists.

b21


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2007)

barry1021 said:


> ...personally I think it would be great if all the top builders had five year waiting lists.
> 
> b21


After I've got mine!!


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Sacha White said:


> I kind of feel like I am hijacking BobRoss' thread, which I don't want to do.
> 
> Bob, I am excited for you that you are getting a Sachs. I wish I was too!



Hardly a hijacking; it's always enlightening to hear from the builders themselves. Your contribution to this thread -- or any thread on these forums, frankly -- is greatly appreciated.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

Bob Ross said:


> Hardly a hijacking; it's always enlightening to hear from the builders themselves. Your contribution to this thread -- or any thread on these forums, frankly -- is greatly appreciated.



I agree Bob; This has been a good thread you started and I wish to offer you my congratulations as well on your RS purchase. Be sure to post pictures when that time
comes around. Takecare.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

AlexCad5 said:


> His bikes are $4000 because he is semi retired.


harsh.


AlexCad5 said:


> He is building only 5/6 frames a month. Not many compared to other builders.


who?


AlexCad5 said:


> Anybody who is perceived as the best at their craft commands the most dollars..


actually, i think my frames are reasonably priced.
since i sell mostly bicycles, the losses inherent in 
_hand-work_ are more than made up for with the margins 
i get from the parts packages and ancilliary goods. very
_martha stewart..._


AlexCad5 said:


> If that allows him to not to have to work his a$$ off, who is to complain?


_work_ for a framebuilder is alot more than what happens at the bench atmo.


AlexCad5 said:


> I think Strong is making 1.5 bikes a day if I remember correctly. Tig is probably a faster medium than lugged frames, but what do I know.


carl is a treasure. he deserves all the props he gets atmo. what
do you know? here's a chestnut: forks take time too atmo. how
many of the prodigious builders save time by getting parts from
forks _*R*_ us?

note - this is all in good fun atmo, i just drove 23 hours home from the
'cross natz in kansas city where out team raced all weekend. i was on
the 'cross board when i saw this thread. as it is, i am suffering from
post 'cross traumatic stress disorder. it set in early this year. read 
about the mania here http://rscyclocross.blogspot.com/ i love it when 
the counter gets a spike atmo.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

*It ain't only bikes that can take a long time to show up.*

My fiddle teacher is also a banjo enthusiast.
He put in an order to a famous custom banjo maker about 5 years ago. The banjo is due to show up about a year from now.
Meantime, he ordered a custom banjo from another maker. This guy is less well-known than the other one. My teacher ordered it about six months ago. It just showed up last week. The instrument is utterly gorgeous. I played it. The sound is out of this world.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

Len J said:


> You make 5 to 6 complete frame/forks per month or say 65/year.
> 
> You have people give you deposits for 400 orders. At that pace it will take you 6 years to deliver the latest frame ordered.
> 
> ...


ps - len _gets it_ atmo.
ceya. time to unpack the team hummer.


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## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

*Well*



toomanybikes said:


> After I've got mine!!


since you appear to be on 27 lists, it shouldn't be a problem.:blush2: 

b21


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## ted wojcik (Mar 18, 2006)

*Frame $$ and waiting time*

It never ceases to amaze me how infrequently road frame buyers really take an analitical look at what they are buying. First the materials, any competent builder is going to use the best materials that he/she has available to them. Modern tube sets designed for lugs are from $100- 300 a set depending on the quantity the builder buys at one time. Additional forks parts are about $70. The best painter in this country are going to charge the builder in the neighborhood $350-$450 for paint. Let's say the cost of goods sold is at the extreme $1000. How much should you pay for 20 - 40 hours of work for a bicycle frame. It is just a bicycle frame, not the space shuttle. Lugged frames are built as a craft with techniques that are decades old. A buyer who really benefits from a custom frame, i.e. has a sizing need, will probably require lugs outside of the normally supplied angles. Research tells us about 50% of the population could benefit from custom sizing. I didn't say require, I said benefit. The extremes of these sizing requirements are going to need lugs other than 73,73, 60. Some of the most popular builders are using these lugs which can be adjusted about 1 degree in each direction. The result is probably going to be a frame that is not far away from a production frame in dimension. What this leaves is a custom frame based on the art of hand work. Builder who excel in this area, that is hand cut lugs of extremely ornate design are the ones who really should command the price and waiting time discussed in this thread. Builders spending up to 40 hours or more sculpting beautiful hand formed lugs are seldom discussed on these threads. This is where we enjoy functional art. There is quite a large number of builders who are building mechanically exquisite frames with simple, perfectly trimmed lugs and nice paint with lugs that come in enough angles that can serve the rider more adequately. If you are really interested in servicing a fitting need and without getting swept up in an image and an unreasonable waiting time, do a little research on local builders and really analyze what you are buying, performance (fitting) or image. If you want art, buy obvious art. Waiting many years for less than the obvious is really ignoring some incredible talent. If buyers spread their orders around the qualified builders, you won't have to wait an unreasonable time or pay unreasonable price to enjoy the talents of a skilled builder.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

TACSTS said:


> I guess I'll add a couple comments after following this thread for the past couple of days. $4k is a LOT for a frame/fork, I wholeheartedly agree. That said I'm glad I put a deposit down in June, because I perceive a Sachs as the best in his class, (ie. lugged racing frames) and why waste money on something that I'm always going to think of as "second rate". Furthermore, I'm only 24 and have been going to school for a while now and working really hard to get an education that will afford me the ability to pay $4k for a bike I really want. It's going to be a couple year belated graduation gift to myself. I should have what I owe on student loans paid off by then, and other than a car payment I should have very little debt. Maybe it's not the most responsible decision to put down a deposit for such an expensive item now, but there have been plenty of times when I'm feeling really burnt out from school and down, when a few minutes looking at e-Richie's Flickr gallery gets me motivated again. Also when you figure that I'll have the bike before I'm 30, the $/mile over my cycling "life" will be pretty reasonable. Heck I'm sure some of my classmates have spent almost $4k on alcohol in college, so as a non-drinker it's all about even, right?
> 
> If by the time my name comes up the price is above my financial obscenity level ($4k is making me itchy as it is) I'll just eat the deposit and someone behind me will get their bike just a bit earlier. No big deal.



Nice perspective, seems like you have a pretty good head on your shoulders.


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## Sacha White (May 25, 2005)

ted wojcik said:


> How much should you pay for 20 - 40 hours of work for a bicycle frame.


 That's a good question, Ted.

Here is another one:

What fraction of a plumber's hourly fee do you think a frame builder should make? 

The average hourly for a licensed and insured tradesman is $85-$100.

Should a builder make half of that? one fourth? 

Factor in that atleast one of the builders that we are talking about has 35 years of experience building and racing bicycles. How much is that worth?

This craft takes not only the skill of a tradesman, but an eye for design, as well. I would like to see every builder make what they are worth, and put themselves in a position where their business is healthy and sustainable.

btw, in your cost of goods number above, I don't know that you factored in the time it takes to run a business, liability insurance, rent and utilities, health insurance, marketing etc. Did you?

your argument for lower wages is a funny one to me. I don't know anyone who is getting rich doing this.

-Sacha


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

i have no dog in this fight but this -


ted wojcik said:


> A buyer who really benefits from a custom frame,
> i.e. has a sizing need, will probably require lugs
> outside of the normally supplied angles..


is not true atmo.


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## djg (Nov 27, 2001)

jpap said:


> What a load of crap. The guy welds a dozen pieces of metal together and there's fools like you paying $5000 in todays prices for his service AND willing to wait 6 years for it. Work of art my ass. It's not like he's painting the next Mona Lisa.


So you don't want one then?

I'm guessing that "art" is used here as an honorific -- for a beautifully designed, executed, and finished piece of craftsmanship, not to suggest that the frame is one of the great artifacts in the history of the visual arts. Of course there's no way in hell you could buy the actual Mona Lisa for 5 grand or 5 million either. Late twentieth century pieces already recognized as major accomplishments by the art world? Nope, not 5 grand either. Maybe you can bet on the next great winner -- somebody will -- and good luck with that.

What you get here is a one-off, made-to-measure, beautifully finished, steel road racing bicycle frame in a particular style. The builder widely is recognized as a master at this sort of thing who is at the top of his game. Hence the long wait list for frames that cost what they cost. If you don't want that sort of thing, don't buy it, but the premium over mass-manufactured doesn't seem strange compared to other finely crafted custom objects. There are chairs that cost 5 grand, suits, whatever. There are wrist watches that cost 50k. There are cars that run 6 figures. There are good cars that cost less money and are easier to find -- maybe everybody should want the same one?

I'm also guessing that the tubes are brazed together, not welded.

I'm also guessing that this is not typically an impulse purchase made by somebody who will not have a bike in the interim.

People don't sit waiting by the phone for these -- or shouldn't -- they are likely folks who have been riding for some time, know what they want, and have the scratch to put in the order and pay when all is said and done. If you want one, you plunk down a little money at, say, the age of 40, and go about living your life and riding what you ride. Time ticks by and if you've changed your mind or your circumstances, you probably can get your deposit back or whatever. Let's face it, if there's a six year wait list, there's somebody who will want your spot. I've only seen a few Sachs frames up close and personal, and they looked great and the riders seemed very happy with them. I figure people have spent more and waited longer for things that gave less pleasure.

Sorry if I sound defensive -- I don't actually own one of Sachs's frames, and I'm not on the wait-list, and he's not my cousin or anything. I've never waited five months for a frameset myself, much less five years. No skin off my back, I just don't understand the hostility or the contempt.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 18, 2006)

*Not an argument for lower wages*

This isn't an argument for lower wages, but for reasonable ones. There is at least one builder here who is making what I consider a lot of money. There are many builders who are making great bikes and not getting recognition for the result. We all build for our own reasons and we must recognize what our bicycles are worth. I truly think that I could train someone in one year to make lugged frames that are straight, ridable, and of very high quality. The design and limitations of the structure can be absorbed by not trying to reinvent the bicycle. Fitting is so subjective that it has almost become impossible to quantify. Building a frame with good investment cast lugs, quality tubing, and the rest of readily available parts is being done everyday by builders with a lot less than 35 years of experience and being done well. I have been building for over 25 years and I can tell you I have made some things that require a lot more skill than a lugged bike frame. The art and the craft shows in work like yours Sasha, and that skill level is not easily passed on. You either have it or you don't. Edging a lug, B.B. shell and fork crown, cleaning the tubes, then sliding the frame together in a jig is not like brain surgery. Finding the hidden shapes in a uncut lug and bringing it out in a form of balanced beauty is mastered by few. Then we must consider what our painters do for us. The part of the frame that has the least to do with how the frame performs has the most to do with how it sells. I can tell you, if we look at the customer base that will be emerging in the next 20 years, our craft is certainly going to be in a diminished demand. The majority of young riders could care less about how long it takes to prepare a set of lugs to make a steel frame. The younger riders who are influenced by light weight, high tech materials, and measurable performance are in the majority. Respect for the craftsman is demonstrated by a minority who gets smaller everyday.


----------



## ted wojcik (Mar 18, 2006)

I don't think Henry James would bother if he didn't see a need.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

ted wojcik said:


> This isn't an argument for lower wages, but for reasonable ones. There is at least one builder here who is making what I consider a lot of money.


there aren't many builders here. what is
_a lot of money_ to you?


ted wojcik said:


> There are many builders who are making great bikes and not getting recognition for the result.


where does the blame for this get placed?


ted wojcik said:


> <snip> I truly think that I could train someone in one year to make lugged frames that are straight, ridable, and of very high quality. The design and limitations of the structure can be absorbed by not trying to reinvent the bicycle. Fitting is so subjective that it has almost become impossible to quantify. Building a frame with good investment cast lugs, quality tubing, and the rest of readily available parts is being done everyday by builders with a lot less than 35 years of experience and being done well. I have been building for over 25 years and I can tell you I have made some things that require a lot more skill than a lugged bike frame.


why is the joining process under such scrutiny? it's
a method, not a detail that ensures a quality level. if
you know what goes where, and can be profitable,
who cares what material is used?


ted wojcik said:


> The art and the craft shows in work like yours Sasha, and that skill level is not easily passed on. You either have it or you don't. Edging a lug, B.B. shell and fork crown, cleaning the tubes, then sliding the frame together in a jig is not like brain surgery. Finding the hidden shapes in a uncut lug and bringing it out in a form of balanced beauty is mastered by few. Then we must consider what our painters do for us. The part of the frame that has the least to do with how the frame performs has the most to do with how it sells. I can tell you, if we look at the customer base that will be emerging in the next 20 years, our craft is certainly going to be in a diminished demand. The majority of young riders could care less about how long it takes to prepare a set of lugs to make a steel frame. The younger riders who are influenced by light weight, high tech materials, and measurable performance are in the majority. Respect for the craftsman is demonstrated by a minority who gets smaller everyday.


the reason for this is that manufacturing methods and materials 
allow industry to make some mighty fine products. joke all you
want (not you, teddy) about factory frames; most are quite good,
and more than good enough. the role of the builder has diminished
because, unlike in the pre-mtb era, one can go to an lbs and get
a race or tour-the-world bicycle right off the floor atmo. that's
a good thing.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 18, 2006)

*Quality bikes*

You are so right Richard. There are production bikes that are equal in function to anything we can make. They lack the soul and art work, but put it on the alignment table and measure the important stuff and the bikes are remarkable. You might be interested to know that my wife still has a Richard Sachs that was built right after leaving Witcomb USA. I bought it for her from John Gromeck in Exeter, NH.in 1979 It is still in good shape and has a bazillion mile on it. It was my first exposure to a high quality bicycle. 
I began bicycle frame building with brazing and welding skills already at hand and I guess I never considered it as a black art. I dealt with British Motorcycle frames that where brazed and had their own type of lugs. I think the process of producing a straight frame can come from making some that are less than straight and figuring out how to answer the challenges of making something end up where you want it when it moves with heat. As far as requiring more than one angle of lug to build many frame sizes, it certainly makes it easier to not have to change the angle of an investment cast lug by more that one degree to keep the internal clearance within the ideal range for silver brazing. We can thank the acceptance of TIG welding to allow some frame sizes simply not possible with lugs. Fillet brazing can just be too time consuming to make it economical to build a frame for someone who simply does not have the money to afford that much shop time. You asked me what I consider a lot of money, I guess it is any amount more than what I have made. I was drawn to bicycles by respect for frames from Richard Sachs, Peter Weigle, Chris Chance, and Tom Kellogg. Youngsters that I talk to in the shop today are impressed by Parlee, Calfee, and Trek OCLV.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

ted wojcik said:


> Youngsters that I talk to in the shop today are impressed by Parlee, Calfee, and Trek OCLV.


teddy -
do us all a favor and let these youngsters know about
nic crumpton. nic _gets it_ atmo.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

terry b said:


> Yet we don't go around calling people "fools" because they enjoy themselves. Personally, I find drinking to be a true waste of money, yet I don't wade into Lounge threads about cocktails and tell people that they are stupid.


Holy smokes, I've blown a lot of money drinking and carousing, plus the opportunity cost of all of that "wasted" time. I'd like to think maybe I've learned something priceless in that time, and yes I've been a fool and a moreon. Maybe one of the things I've learned is to laugh at yourself after taking yourself way too seriously 99% of the time.

Regarding the bikes though, I don't think spending ten grand on a bike, or getting a Richard Sachs is all that crazy. I'm kind of new to this, but goodwill is accounted for in business. It can be a huge asset, and if you have developed a fine reputation through your hard work and expertise, there is nothing wrong with trading on it. Mr Sachs or any other businessman should be congratulated for developing the kind of reputation and following he has. 

If you get psyched about jumping on your custom bike to get a couple of hours of exercise 5 or 6 days a week, how do you put a price on that? What does heart disease and diabetes cost?

Valuation is a real tricky subject.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

djg said:


> Late twentieth century pieces already recognized as major accomplishments by the art world? Nope, not 5 grand either. Maybe you can bet on the next great winner -- somebody will -- and good luck with that.


My cousin lives down the road from the general store where Jackson Pollack gave his painting to the owner in exchange for some milk, bread and eggs. The guy put his kids through college on that painting and now his store sells cokes and sandwiches to people like me who are curious to see the reproduction on the wall and hear the story. Go figure.


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## MIN in PDX (Nov 29, 2007)

lookrider said:


> ...
> 
> Valuation is a real tricky subject.



All well said!


----------



## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

e-RICHIE said:


> teddy -
> do us all a favor and let these youngsters know about
> nic crumpton. nic _gets it_ atmo.


Oh boy! (and this is where I get to do what I do best) Are you implying at all that the others don't _get it_? 

I'm going to read your website so maybe I can have a deeper understanding.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Damn, and I was going to make a comment about Ferrari's in my previous post, when the first article I saw was this link.

http://www.belgiumkneewarmers.com/2007/10/interview-with-richard-sachs.html

Does Ferrari _get it_ and Acura not, with a car like the NSX?


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## Juanfco3 (Dec 13, 2007)

Can anyone recomend a good custom luged steel frame for about $2000. I would love to own a strong or vanilla but just cant aford it.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 18, 2006)

I would guess I probably don't get it. Or maybe I just don't know what "it" is.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*I'm not an idolater!*



ted wojcik said:


> I would guess I probably don't get it. Or maybe I just don't know what "it" is.


I appreciated your website and your observations on this thread.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

Juanfco3 said:


> Can anyone recomend a good custom luged steel frame for about $2000. I would love to own a strong or vanilla but just cant aford it.


 Spectrum-Cycles comes close with a base price of $2,450. It may be interesting to some to know that Spectrum makes their own lugs from scratch. It's my understanding that this gives them greater flexibility in design and maintain the beauty of lug construction that many of us like.


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2007)

Juanfco3 said:


> Can anyone recomend a good custom luged steel frame for about $2000. I would love to own a strong or vanilla but just cant aford it.


Sam Whittingham.

His company is called Naked Designs.

Last I looked a lugged steel frame was $1550 ( approx)

www.timetogetnaked.com


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

*affordable customs*



Juanfco3 said:


> Can anyone recomend a good custom luged steel frame for about $2000. I would love to own a strong or vanilla but just cant aford it.


Here are a few:

Waterford
Landshark
Bob Jackson (England)
Mercian (England)
Eddy Merckx (Belgium)

Before anyone chimes in saying that Merckx are not custom, they will build custom Corsa 01 frames on special order. At least they would a few years ago when I bought my Corsa. At that time, I was told the order would take about 4-6 months, and they would build a frame within certain specifications. Eg., you could order a Corsa with an extended head tube, longer top tube, etc. You sometimes see Merckx for sale on eBay that are described as customs.

Here are some more that are custom but not necessarily lugged:

Curtlo
Gunnar
Lyon
Teesdale


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

tarwheel2 said:


> Here are a few:
> 
> Waterford
> Landshark
> ...


landshark....meh!

Len


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*This has a nice ring to it*

Could they collaborate some day and make something special special? 



Len J said:


> Sachs & Vanilla


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

merckxman said:


> Could they collaborate some day and make something special special?


we'll call it richard sacha...


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Gondolas*

A friend of mine builds gondolas in Venice. The waiting list for his is 13 years. You can wait less from other builders. 



Mapei said:


> My fiddle teacher is also a banjo enthusiast.
> He put in an order to a famous custom banjo maker about 5 years ago. The banjo is due to show up about a year from now.
> Meantime, he ordered a custom banjo from another maker. This guy is less well-known than the other one. My teacher ordered it about six months ago. It just showed up last week. The instrument is utterly gorgeous. I played it. The sound is out of this world.


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

Is the $400 deposit in an escrow account collecting interest to be applied to the total?


----------



## WadePatton (Dec 29, 2006)

It was, but then Richard took it out for some dental work, but then the tooth quit hurting and he had a hot run on the craps tables at Atlantic City--I mean real hot, so he bought a plane and flew to Nigeria and hooked up with the Royal-but troubled, as you may know, family and set up an email fraud scheme which has been paying handsomely--so much so that Richard is thinking about giving frames away and sponsoring ten more race teams...honest.:ihih:


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

LOL! 

but seriously at any given time there is approximately $144,000.00 of deposits in an account. 


even in a simple savings account, thats some pretty good interest.


----------



## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

Typically, depsoits are working capital for a builder. With cash being tight, the money for tooling, silver, flux, overhead, consumables (files, abrasives, etc), braze-ons, tubing, lugs, and longer term projects has to come from some place. I don't know many builders who aren't putting the cash to work for them.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

Aktion said:


> LOL!
> 
> but seriously at any given time there is approximately $144,000.00 of deposits in an account.
> 
> ...


don't overlook the fact that it takes a fair amount of time and
energy to service the client and the pending order long before
a tube is ever mitered or a color chosen atmo. a small deposit
helps defray this expense.


----------



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Len J said:


> BTW, If you don't get a cool confirm in the mail in a week or so, reach out to him.



LOL! I got Richie's confirmation package last week...hysterical! My wife was looking at this pile of decals and confetti and the hat and the handwritten thank-you-for-your-order note, and I could see she was about to go into a "I cant believe you're spending all that money with a guy who does business this informally" tirade

...and then we got to the Twizzlers.

Now my wife _loves_ Richard Sachs!


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Bob Ross said:


> LOL! I got Richie's confirmation package last week...hysterical! My wife was looking at this pile of decals and confetti and the hat and the handwritten thank-you-for-your-order note, and I could see she was about to go into a "I cant believe you're spending all that money with a guy who does business this informally" tirade
> 
> ...and then we got to the Twizzlers.
> 
> Now my wife _loves_ Richard Sachs!


ROFLMAO.

When I got my confirm, we had just finished cleaning the house for a dinner party, changed and were aiting for the first guests...I decided to open the mail while we were waiting................Picture the look on MY wife's face!

Enjoy the process.

Len


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

e-RICHIE said:


> don't overlook the fact that it takes a fair amount of time and
> energy to service the client and the pending order long before
> a tube is ever mitered or a color chosen atmo. a small deposit
> helps defray this expense.


How much time is that?


----------



## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

zank said:


> Typically, depsoits are working capital for a builder. With cash being tight, the money for tooling, silver, flux, overhead, consumables (files, abrasives, etc), braze-ons, tubing, lugs, and longer term projects has to come from some place. I don't know many builders who aren't putting the cash to work for them.


I totally agree with you, but with $144,000 of other peoples money in an account for 30+ years I highly doubt that cash is EVER tight.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

Aktion said:


> How much time is that?


it varies. but on average i'll spend 10 hours with a client during the
courting process, in the interview and fitting and the end, and in
all the intermediate time that makes up the waiting process.



Aktion said:


> I totally agree with you, but with $144,000 of other peoples money in an account for 30+ years I highly doubt that cash is EVER tight.


is this for me? i'll reply anyway. i think you need a different calculator
or new lenses for the rose colored glasses atmo. money given in order
to secure a spot in the queue is also used for cash flow, inventory,
design projects, and all the like. it doesn't necessarilly sit still in a pot
by the window. a deposit is a goodwill gesture on behalf of a client
that he is interested in having something made and is willing to wait.
it's a fiscal handshake rather than an investment that is expected to
grow with the prime. after you digest all this, maybe post and let us
know how you woud handle all this. you make something. folks want
it. and more folks want it than you can make, so they agree to wait.
what does aktion do?


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*What are you smoking?*



Aktion said:


> I totally agree with you, but with $144,000 of other peoples money in an account for 30+ years I highly doubt that cash is EVER tight.


Wow, $144,000 sitting for 30 years....whats the annual "Income" from that? Let's see, at 6 %, that's like $8,600/year....man he is getting rich!  

All kidding aside. Here is the deal, at least from a customer perspective.

One man custom Craftsmen framebuilders are personally valuable to me. They are a part of the industry that I hope never goes away. What if Richard (or any of these one man shops) is hurt in a car crash and can't work for six months? No bikes, no income. If this nominal income they make on the deposits is the difference between continjuing and quitting, I'm OK with that.

None of these guys are getting Rich. After 25 years or so of struggling, a guy like Richard has built his reputation to the point, and the market prices have risen to the point where he can benefit from the 1,000's of frames and reputation that he has earned.

3 years ago or so, his wait was 18 months, your assumption that it will stay at 6 years is not certain. things ebb & flow in this industry.

A deposit represents a commitment from the buyer that he is actually going to be there at the end.....without it, he might have a list of interested people that was 10 years long, but how would he know that any of them were going to actually buy a bike from him?

At the end of the day, the terms are clear to a prospective buyer. If you don't agree with them, that's OK....don't particiate with that builder.......gotta love america!........but it is how the industry works.

These are small businesses.......one man shops. Most of them have years of struggling. Consider this a premium for all that experience.

Don't like it, don't buy. It's just part of the deal.

Len


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## Aktion (Jul 17, 2007)

Len J said:


> None of these guys are getting Rich.
> 
> Len


I don't know what the cost of a frame is to manufacture and finish but let's assume $1400 (please correct me if I'm wrong). Leaving a profit of $2600 (on a $4000 frame).

Without general overhead costs included it's $156,000 a year.

If you are paying $2000 a month in overhead that's $132,000 for a 1 man operation.

I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but don't cry "starving artist". I have no problem with craftsmen making a handsome living doing what they do.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

Aktion said:


> I don't know what the cost of a frame is to manufacture and finish but let's assume $1400 (please correct me if I'm wrong). Leaving a profit of $2600 (on a $4000 frame).
> 
> Without general overhead costs included it's $156,000 a year.
> 
> ...


atmo the difference between the selling price and the cog is not
profit. profit is what's left when all the bills are paid, and no two
f'builders have the same overhead.

no one has summoned up the _starving artist_ explanation, not even
len. none of in the trade identify with it anyway. and i want to remind you
of your post here:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1160687#post1160687
where you write:
_I would look for an experienced builder, not the guy that just finished 
his 2nd frame, but the guy who has 1000's of frames and lots of years 
under his belt. Someone that has been through all the trends._

i'd wager there are less than 15 folks stateside that fit this definition,
and those who do deserve to get paid handsomely for their work and
for their staying power atmo.

and ps i don't mean any of this to be confrontational.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Aktion said:


> I don't know what the cost of a frame is to manufacture and finish but let's assume $1400 (please correct me if I'm wrong). Leaving a profit of $2600 (on a $4000 frame).
> 
> Without general overhead costs included it's $156,000 a year.
> 
> ...


What's his cost have to do with selling price? Price is what a willing seller is willing to pay.

As to his price, it is a recent thing. You are acting like he has been charging $4,000 forever. I can tell you personally that that price is a recent thing. 

As has been said, his price is a function of 35 years of gaining experience and perfecting his craft........and people are willing to pay for it. I can guarantee you that he was not making a killing for the majority of those years. Starving artist may be an apt analogy.........laboring for years getting by....not starving, but not staying at the Ritz either.....and then your reputation grows to the point where you are doing better.

Like I said before...if you can't get your head or your wallet around it, then it's not your thing.....it's all good.

All that experience ain't free. 

Obviously YMMV.

You seem to be implying that these guys are ripping people off.........if I'm misunderstanding, please correct me........I'm sayin' I don't see the rip off.

Len


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## innergel (Jun 14, 2002)

why is this thread still alive?


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

innergel said:


> why is this thread still alive?


i agree atmo -


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

Len J said:


> Wow, $144,000 sitting for 30 years....whats the annual "Income" from that? Let's see, at 6 %, that's like $8,600/year....man he is getting rich!


You are correct, but let that compound and don't draw on it for 30 yrs at 6% and you will end up with $715,582.49 in interest over your original deposit of 144k.....Not bad :thumbsup:


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

I'm still missing the "and let it sit for 30 years" part. Framebuilders have bills to pay too.


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

What? They have rent or mortgage? Next thing you'll be telling us you have groceries to by too!


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## guyintense (Jun 6, 2006)

Hey Bob Ross. Good on ya, mate! 
If the next 6 years go as fast as the last 6 years it'll seem like you only waited a few weeks!


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

6 years? 

Is he filing the lugs from solid forged billet of steel with a file? 









Why not get a custom built Parlee frame? Or a Kent Eriksson. I can't argue with anyone that a custom frame sized perfectly for the rider can't be beat. I will probably never go to that extreme. But damn... 6 years...


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

I know this thread has been beaten to death.... but

If someone is that busy, why don't they raise the prices till business starts to back off then at that time they can bring the price down to that happy medium and keep builds 3-6months out? I have never understood this 6 yr wait stuff on anything. Sounds like he is not charging enough.

Will he lose his "coolness" factor when you only have to wait 3-6 months? 

Sharps rifles are the same way; 2-5 yr wait but they only cost 2500 bucks. I would rather pay more and get it quicker. I guess that is just me.

Buy the way, I had a beautiful british racing green and cream Sachs frame I got for free from a friend about 15 yrs ago. I guess they were not as hot as they are now or he just didn't know what he had...LOL


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*What happened to it?*



spinwax said:


> Buy the way, I had a beautiful british racing green and cream Sachs frame I got for free from a friend about 15 yrs ago. I guess they were not as hot as they are now or he just didn't know what he had...LOL


You didn't like it?


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

lookrider said:


> You didn't like it?



Nice bike, but I was young at the time (16) and had sponsors giving me my bikes so I didn't have much interest in it or really know what I had. I had it built with Record and eventually sold it to a friend of mine in his 40s (more of the age that would have appreciated it at the time). 

I would love to have a nice steel frame again, but I think a 6 yr wait is absolutely ludicrous.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

spinwax said:


> If someone is that busy, why don't they raise the prices till business starts to back off then at that time they can bring the price down to that happy medium and keep builds 3-6months out? I have never understood this 6 yr wait stuff on anything. Sounds like he is not charging enough.


You are under the misguided assumption that Richard (or any of these guys) uses the backlog as the key decision making variable in their business. That is the tail wagging the dog.

You crack me up....you don't like the fact that they are not paying interest on the deposit but then at the same time think they should raise their prices......ROFLMAO. one is a net price decrease the other an increase.

You don't like it, don't order....I'm sure these guys will survive. It's great having choices....which is why Richard has a list of "Next Wave" builders on his site... http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachslinks.html Page down on that page.

It's called planning and delayed gratification BTW.

Len


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## David Kirk (Mar 6, 2005)

There is something I'll never understand on this topic. Some folks want a product that it takes 5 years to get and they know that when they plunk down their deposit. No problem.

What I don't get is the other folks that try to talk the person incurring the wait out of it saying that they could have a brand X with a much , much short wait. If they wanted a trek they'd get one. There is only one way to get a Sachs and if you want one you wait. What's so hard about that. If you don't want one or you don't want to wait that is fine.......... but if you do why are you second guessed by others?

It's not like the folks waiting for their Sachs have no bike to ride for the next 5 tears and will just sit watching the "View" until UPS drops the Sachs on the porch. They have bikes and they ride them. They just want to experience something and they are willing to wait.

As for the finance of it............. most builders take a small deposit. As I recall Richard takes $300. With the economy being what it is due to King George's brilliant policies it's not like there is lost potential interest income on that $300. What the money buys is not only a spot in line to get a wonderful machine but it gives real license to dream and fantasize for the next 5 years about their new ride. Why do some want to take this fun away?

It's this what free choice is about?

Dave


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

I heart David Kirk.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

zank said:


> I heart David Kirk.


Get a room!  :blush2:   

BTW, I agree

Len


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## David Kirk (Mar 6, 2005)

Len J said:


> Get a room!  :blush2:
> 
> BTW, I agree
> 
> Len


We've got a room in Portland you silly. care to join us and a few thousand of our best friends?

Dave


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

David Kirk said:


> We've got a room in Portland you silly. care to join us and a few thousand of our best friends?
> 
> Dave


The lead time may be too long...


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## stevers (Aug 10, 2005)

*Bob Ross....*

So, I've been watching this thread off and on for the past couple of weeks (and yes, now is the time I post a reply):

Bob - congrats on the decision and the huevos to commit money and time to something you want. When you do get your RS, I want pictures and a full ride report.

To the builders...Thanks for posting, your craft and comments are always appreciated.

To everybody else...its Bob's money, let him spend it how he chooses on what he chooses.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

David Kirk said:


> We've got a room in Portland you silly. care to join us and a few thousand of our best friends?
> 
> Dave


You mean the West Coast Handmade Bicycle Show? :cryin: :cryin: 

Unfortunatly, Scheduling conflict.......responsibility $ucks. :mad2: 

Does Karin Know?

Len


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## Mshue (Oct 23, 2006)

*Wait list threads...*

Can you imagine the price it would take to reduce e-Richie's wait list to a year or less? To me, the difference between that price and what e-Richie actually charges is, in effect, a contribution to cycling in general. The true "market-clearing" price would make it impossible for the vast majority of cyclists to even contemplate ordering a Sachs. I personally wouldn't hold it against e-Richie (or Sacha, etc.) for charging what the market could bear (but can you imagine the outrage on these and other boards). However, I appreciate that they choose to charge something less. 

I also appreciate that e-Richie addressed his wait list issue by listing several other excellent builders in his Next Wave post on his website. In fact, that's how I came into contact with Mike Zanconato, who built me a really sweet bike that you can see posted elsewhere on this forum. I'm sure other builders and potential customers have benefited similarly. This all seems good for cycling to me. 

David Kirk, I'm not familiar with this "Sachs on the porch" thing you mentioned. I don't think that's allowed here in the midwest, but it sounds intriguing.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

Mshue said:


> I also appreciate that e-Richie addressed his wait list issue by listing several other excellent builders in his Next Wave post on his website.


spread the love atmo, one lug at a time -
http://richardsachs.com/nextwave.html


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

David Kirk said:


> It's not like the folks waiting for their Sachs have no bike to ride for the next 5 tears and will just sit watching the "View" until UPS drops the Sachs on the porch. They have bikes and they ride them. They just want to experience something and they are willing to wait.
> 
> Dave


Hey Dave,

UPS doesn't just leave bikes on a porch without a signature, do they?

I work for Fedex and I can't imagine releasing a Sach's, or any other bike for that matter, on a front porch.

Mail order stuff, envelopes, all the time , a computer or bike, never, unless in a garage or backyard with written instructions..

I've seen a bunch of posts where the writer says they pull up to their house and a bike box is sitting there. Seems kind of nuts.

Professional Delivery Boy....


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

lookrider said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> UPS doesn't just leave bikes on a porch without a signature, do they?
> 
> I work for Fedex and I can't imagine releasing a Sach's, or any other bike for that matter, on a front porch.


look what was left on my porch one day atmo -


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

I see the truck there. They don't leave stuff like that? I'm sure you know your drivers very well also...


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## David Kirk (Mar 6, 2005)

lookrider said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> UPS doesn't just leave bikes on a porch without a signature, do they?
> 
> ...


I think you might be taking it a bit too literal. How about changing it "until the Professional Delivery Driver carefully hands the undamaged box over to you in exchange for your signature" ?

Dave


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

Len J said:


> You are under the misguided assumption that Richard (or any of these guys) uses the backlog as the key decision making variable in their business. That is the tail wagging the dog.
> 
> You crack me up....you don't like the fact that they are not paying interest on the deposit but then at the same time think they should raise their prices......ROFLMAO. one is a net price decrease the other an increase.
> 
> ...





> You are under the misguided assumption that Richard (or any of these guys) uses the backlog as the key decision making variable in their business. That is the tail wagging the dog.


Well, color me wrong. Maybe Mr. Sachs has so much money he doesn't care about making more, hence the way he runs his business. Sounds like you know more about his accounting practices and business plan than I do. Not to sound sarcastic but fill me in; I am curious to why a business would be ran this way.



> You crack me up....you don't like the fact that they are not paying interest on the deposit but then at the same time think they should raise their prices......ROFLMAO. one is a net price decrease the other an increase.


You may have me confused with another poster and that is ok. I never said anything about "not paying interest on the deposit". All I did was elaborate on another persons post about 144k making only 8600 or so a yr in interest. I made a little funny that if you let it compoud for that 30yrs he was talking about, one would have almost a million dollars in compounded interest over the original deposit. Not sure why your panties got in such a bunch on this one. 



> You don't like it, don't order....I'm sure these guys will survive.


No need, I have already owned a Sachs bike. Heck I owned one before I was 20. 



> It's called planning and delayed gratification BTW.


Seriously; if you need 6 years to plan for a bike build, I am glad you are not building one of my houses... 

BTW, if you are waiting for or already own... congrats. They are beauteous steel frames :thumbsup:

Edit. I think Sachs bikes are beautiful. I never said anything negative about people waiting for the product, to each their own. The only thing I was asking about was why RS does things the way he does. So far all I have got is some rambling about somthing I didn't even post. 

If anyone can explain to me what the reason for the 6 yr wait is, I would like to know? Like I said, raising the price till the wait starts to go away, then lowering your price back down just enough to find that happy medium of a realistic wait and a higher price point.


----------



## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

innergel said:


> why is this thread still alive?


 Hey, maybe we can keep this thread going for.....6 years.


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## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

spinwax said:


> Well, color me wrong. Maybe Mr. Sachs has so much money he doesn't care about making more, hence the way he runs his business. Sounds like you know more about his accounting practices and business plan than I do. Not to sound sarcastic but fill me in; I am curious to why a business would be ran this way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hi and thanks for the compliments. i know they are in there
somewhere atmo.

i have to comment -
if you think i have so much money that i don't need more,
you are wrong on two counts. you know what this reminds
me of? "you know nothing about me or my work". so watch
this in its entirety and you'll know what i mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIYz8tfGjY

ps there's a wait because more folks want what we
do than we are able to make in a work week. and
believe me, our work weeks are filled. keep this
in mind though, at least in my case, i spent at
least 30 years working with little or no wait lists
(what i consider a few months, max), and the recent
spike that i (and sacha, and peter, and ???) is all
because of - you. we had this thread once or twice
before. in our case we only need 4-6 orders a month
to fill our books, and the more you post about the
work, and the wait, and the weirdness of it all, the
more folks get on the end of the line. more than from
anything else, the demand has escalated in direct
relationship to the noise on the message boards.
here's a recent thread to refresh some memories.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=88330

our bicycles are good. we work hard to make them better
over time. we treat people well and with respect. and we
are riders and racers just like you. it should not be that
unusual that there is a demand atmo.


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

e-RICHIE said:


> hi and thanks for the compliments. i know they are in there
> somewhere atmo.
> 
> i have to comment -
> ...


Wow, I didn't think I would get my own personal reply... Thanks.

There are many products like yours whether it be a knife, a bike or even a car. Many companies start out just like you and people don't realize the constitution or worth of a product such as yours for many yrs. 

What I have seen with products like yours is, the more popular, the more expensive they get, followed by wait. I don't see that in your frames. They seem reasonable for nice hand made product but the wait is unbelievable. Why the wait? The answer "we will not raise prices because we are not an elitest product" wouldn't go because a 6 yr wait makes them an elitest item in a different way IMHO. 

Oh, I am sure I will get hate mail from all the people on here that plan on purchasing your frame saying "what the hell are doing, telling Richard to raise his prices?". That is not the point. I just was wondering what would be the harm in raising your retail to cut down the wait and get people a product that they REALLY want a little sooner. Maybe 2 yrs?

Thanks again for the personal reply. Keep up the great work on an awesome American made product.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

spinwax said:


> Wow, I didn't think I would get my own personal reply... Thanks.
> 
> There are many products like yours whether it be a knife, a bike or even a car. Many companies start out just like you and people don't realize the constitution or worth of a product such as yours for many yrs.
> 
> ...


thanks and ps now i'll get the hate mail atmo.
the one incorrect assumption you make is the selling price.
it is not locked in. for the small amount of money that changes
hands to secure a spot in the queue, you get the spot in the
queue. there is no way on earth to fix a price 6 months from
now much less 6 years. it's a conundrum that is for damn
sure. i'd ask if you or anyone else had a solution, and how
any of us could possibly set a locked-in price in lieu of how
volatile material costs, overhead, labor rates, and cayman 
island vacations are - but i might not wanna know atmo!


----------



## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

e-RICHIE said:


> thanks and ps now i'll get the hate mail atmo.
> the one incorrect assumption you make is the selling price.
> it is not locked in. for the small amount of money that changes
> hands to secure a spot in the queue, you get the spot in the
> ...


Raising the price will equate to fewer deposits and less of a wait time and probably more money in the pocket. You will not have to guess at labor rates, material cost if you only have to look a yr or so into the future. 

There is a reason you can walk right into a Ferarri dealer and pick up a new F430 if you have the money. It is because the cost eliminates the wait time and allows buyers that really want and can afford the product to purchase it. I know that a bicycle frame is on a different level but the idea is the same. You would never want to price yourself out of the market and make the product "over priced", but on the other hand there is a point where your price could cut down on your waiting list while still maintaining or even inflating your income. 

When you saw your queue getting filled up 6 months, 12 months, a yr and half did you ever think of maybe raising the price of your frames? What was the reasoning behind not raising prices?

I am no financial analyst (that is my wifes dept.. ) so I am probably totally out of whack here and missing the point. I just don't understand and that is the reason I am asking these questions. I find it extremely fascinating the workings behind a business such as the one you own and run. 

Thanks again for the info.


----------



## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

spinwax said:


> Raising the price will equate to fewer deposits and less of a wait time and probably more money in the pocket. You will not have to guess at labor rates, material cost if you only have to look a yr or so into the future.
> 
> There is a reason you can walk right into a Ferarri dealer and pick up a new F430 if you have the money. It is because the cost eliminates the wait time and allows buyers that really want and can afford the product to purchase it. I know that a bicycle frame is on a different level but the idea is the same. You would never want to price yourself out of the market and make the product "over priced", but on the other hand there is a point where your price could cut down on your waiting list while still maintaining or even inflating your income.
> 
> ...


but - there is *no* price to raise atmo.
the only price i ever quote is what a frame leaving today sells for.
if it needs to be known, here is a recent muse wrt terms of business:
http://walkerguitars.com/ordering.htm
i like to steal ideas from the very best atmo!


ps edit - when my wait was so low as 6-18 months i did in fact
have a locked in price, and i did also have a fixed policy of a
50% deposit. i stopped playing that "game" when the wait approached
24 months because i did not wasnt to be the steward of so much of
other people's money. atmo a small deposit as a token fiscal handshake
seems to be a better solution now. thanks -


----------



## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

e-RICHIE said:


> but - there is *no* price to raise atmo.
> the only price i ever quote is what a frame leaving today sells for.
> if it needs to be known, here is a recent muse wrt terms of business:
> http://walkerguitars.com/ordering.htm
> ...


I know you say you don't have a "fixed" price. People would not leave a deposit if they had no idea what your frames sold for or what that day of delivery price would be, so there is a round price of some sort. If that price was known to be higher than it is now, wouldn't deposits be fewer and build dates sooner? Lets say a majority of your frames are leaving the shop at or around $2500.00. Well, when business starts to get so busy you can not keep up and your deposits are putting you one or two yrs out why wouldn't you or any other business man bump that out the door price to 3000 or 3500 till deposits start to slow down? I am sure if a customer called you today to put a deposit (assuming you only had a 1-2 yr waiting list due to a more "fixed price"); by the time they hung up with you, he or she would have some idea of what the price of the frame would be on that delivery day 24 months from now. Am I right?

You are offering a great product that people are willing to wait 6+ yrs for. Doesn't that warrant a higher price?

Damn, I wish I could come up with a product that people were willing to wait 6 yrs for and not have any idea what the price will be when the goods are delivered. 

You sir, deserve every penny you earn for your frames.

edit: Btw, Walker does include a reference price list. Not set in stone but at least it gives you a good idea of what you are in for at the end of your build.


----------



## e-RICHIE (Apr 21, 2002)

spinwax said:


> edit: Btw, Walker does include a reference price list. Not set in stone but at least it gives you a good idea of what you are in for at the end of your build.


so do i atmo -
http://richardsachs.com/rsachsfaq.html


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## spinwax (Nov 28, 2007)

e-RICHIE said:


> so do i atmo -
> http://richardsachs.com/rsachsfaq.html



Thanks. I saw that page and missed the current pricing. 


Btw, when did Joe Bell start painting your frames and forks? I don't believe the frame I owned was painted by Bell. I owned the frame 15+ yrs ago.


----------



## jcbenten (Nov 12, 2007)

I have been following the dialogue on the economics of a 6-year wait with much interest. Applying economic theory to a single entity is fraught with pitfalls, the primary one being that the HUMAN element cannot be modeled very well, if at all. 

In general, if the demand for a product goes up, the price goes up. In some respects it has as $4K for a frame is not inexpensive and more than most customs. The interesting part for me is that instead of raising prices even higher to control the backlog, RS has decided to promote his competition for the good of the industry. 

This is fascinating and probably has a PhD thesis or two in all the microeconomic interaction happenings.

Only on bike forums


----------



## JChasse (Sep 16, 2005)

I may be dearly sorry, but I’m going to open the Stay-Fresh Seal™ on this can-o-worms…

I’ve been back and forth on the 6-year wait, risk-adjusted weighted cost of capital, and the "am I saving money by placing a deposit now on a $4,000+ bicycle" (huh?) conundrum. In fact I’ve been hemming and hawing for about 3 years.

In the end, I mailed an order form and couldn’t be happier.

I can certainly understand the wait being an issue if you need a bike NOW, or if you’re one who demands instant gratification. I don’t need another bike now. In fact I wouldn’t really know what to do with another incoming bike project at the moment. I do really like instant gratification in many (most) cases, but bikes have never been one of them. Maybe it stems from the fact that the first bike I really lusted for was a Ti Kona mountain frame back in 1993 or so, when I just got out of grad school and my car was worth less than the frame retailed for.

I ended up buying it, and it literally hung on my apartment wall for about a year before I could afford to build it up. The beauty is that I still remember the first ride on it, I rode the hell out of it all over the USA, I still have it (now single-speed), and I’ll never sell it.

I understand skepticism about the economic justification. Sheeeit, we’re talking about spending multiple thousands of dollars on a bike. I didn’t send off the check to save money. 

I also sort-of understand the concept of the “I won’t spend more than $x,xxx on a bike” theory. (I’m not going to wade into the inflation adjustment debate.) But you gotta admit it’s a pretty arbitrary thing. If you are spending more $ on the complete bike than some people make in a week/month/year, it’s not a matter of personally trying to level living standards across the economic scale. Bottom line is if my total budget for all my bikes is $10,000, then that’s what it is. And in that case I’d personally rather have two $5,000 bikes than ten $1,000 bikes. It’s just my preference, and who’s going to tell me I’m wrong?

The craft builders build bicycles that speak to me. I appreciate the $3,000 hand-made steel frame more than I appreciate two $1,500 carbon frames that weigh less (in most cases). I lust over hand-built things more than high-zoot factory comparatives. I’d rather have a single Vanilla than several other high-end carbon frames (and I’ll admit to really wanting a Look or a BMC), regardless of how many miles I ride or how fast I ride them.

It is what it is, I earned the pesos in my bank account, and I chose to spend some of them on a select few hand-built bicycles.

Long live $500 hybrids, cutting-edge suppliers of Tour teams, single-man shops, and the freedom of buyer choice.

Now, back to my beer.


----------



## Troy16 (Jan 2, 2003)

rnhood said:


> You paid a deposit on a frame that will take six years to get??
> 
> Let me sell you a bridge.



ROTFLMFAO, oh how true. That was a classic. 

What was it W.C. Fields used to say?????


----------



## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

(disregard; see below)


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

So this just showed up in my email inbox


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## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

Thread dredge of the week


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Would you have had the patience to wait over 8 years for a bike frame.......I know I don't have that personality. The 8 months I waited for my Carl Strong in 2009 was about the limit for me. 

Congrats Bob......send as many more pics as you want. Everybody loves a Sachs.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

ogre said:


> Thread dredge of the week


It's his thread.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

cdhbrad said:


> Would you have had the patience to wait over 8 years for a bike frame.......I know I don't have that personality. The 8 months I waited for my Carl Strong in 2009 was about the limit for me.
> 
> Congrats Bob......send as many more pics as you want. Everybody loves a Sachs.



On another Note: I have 2 Strong bikes both just under 6 mo. to get to my door. I have to agree about the limit comment personally.

OTOH; a fellow forum member on another forum had been notified in 2014 that his Sachs queue had come up having completely forgotten he had secured it 6 years earlier. 

He has lots of bike that all got sent to that back of the grab/ride queue, including for an overseas bike trip/race. He seems to feel no bike he ever has owned/ridden is as perfect is all regard...

Who doesn't love a Sachs, no doubt...


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Bob Ross said:


> So this just showed up in my email inbox


Six years became eight. And here I think I'm patient when I have to wait 4 months for a stock bike. Need more pics, looks like a gorgeous bike!


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Jwiffle said:


> Need more pics, looks like a gorgeous bike!


Working out the build with Richie now, as soon as it's complete I will definitely be spamming the entire internet with pics!


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Congratulations on your Sachs, and to the guy up top with the Nagasawa! Beautiful bikes for sure. Can't wait to see the rest of it, but if you put a carbon fork on it we'll all condemn you to hell.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Tachycardic said:


> if you put a carbon fork on it we'll all condemn you to hell.


Fortunately Mr. Sachs has already seen to it that blasphemy of that sort will not be necessary:


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

cdhbrad said:


> Would you have had the patience to wait over 8 years for a bike frame.......I know I don't have that personality. The 8 months I waited for my Carl Strong in 2009 was about the limit for me.
> 
> Congrats Bob......send as many more pics as you want. Everybody loves a Sachs.


That is a long wait but I would take a Sachs over ANY gee-whiz super lightweight plastic bike.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

You ain't gonna make us wait 8yrs for more pictures, are ya?


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

velodog said:


> You ain't gonna make us wait 8yrs for more pictures, are ya?


The frame is still in Richie's shop, being built up w/ wheels, cockpit & groupset. When I finally take delivery of it you can bet I will be spamming every cycling forum on the internet with pics galore!


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## Tachycardic (Mar 31, 2013)

Nicely done. You're parents should be proud!


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

And it's here!


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Bike arrived Wednesday. I was able to take it out for a very short but hard shakedown ride; looking forward to putting a crap-ton of miles on it this coming weekend.

It's pretty fcuking sublime. "Nimble" is the word that first crossed my mind while beating it up over some rolling terrain with a hellacious crosswind.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Bob Ross said:


> And it's here!


That's a swell bike, enjoy it.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Bob Ross said:


> And it's here!


Congratulations. Nice.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Congratulations. You even got the seat level. Very cool paint scheme. Time to clean out the stable?


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

kiwisimon said:


> Congratulations. You even got the seat level. Very cool paint scheme. Time to clean out the stable?



LOL! _Richard_ got the seat level, all I did was slide the seatpost in! If I'm to believe the Velumenoti, it's now my duty to get the bars level; we'll see, after I put some more miles on it.

The only cleaning out of the stable I did was move one bike down to the basement.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Bob Ross said:


> LOL! _Richard_ got the seat level, all I did was slide the seatpost in! If I'm to believe the *Velumenoti*, it's now my duty to get the bars level; we'll see, after I put some more miles on it.


Dan Brown is full of it. The bars and controls are the one place where there are no rules. Whatever works for you are your hands is fine. Personally I like flat tops going into flat brake hoods but others look at my set up and tell me I should angle them up a touch. Go for comfort and efficiency over form. More pics dammit!!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

kiwisimon said:


> Dan Brown is full of it. The bars and controls are the one place where there are no rules. Whatever works for you are your hands is fine. Personally I like flat tops going into flat brake hoods but others look at my set up and tell me I should angle them up a touch. Go for comfort and efficiency over form. More pics dammit!!


Good reason to level the bars. Riding on level hoods won't induce carpal tunnel syndrome on the wrists. Arms bent at the elbows, with hands in line with forearms, very effectively absorbs shocks over bumps. 

Level hoods also shifts a bit more weight forward, which satisfies the fore-aft balance the bike was designed for. Sitting up on those raised hoods puts too much weight over the back wheel, compromising the beautiful handling of this bike.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

I did some tweaking w/ the fit this week: Pulled my preferred fizik Aliante saddle off another bike & installed that, & while I was at it rotated the bars down so they're level. Definitely seems more comfortable that way...though mostly because the reach now seems right.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Bob Ross said:


> I did some tweaking w/ the fit this week: Pulled my preferred fizik Aliante saddle off another bike & installed that, & while I was at it rotated the bars down so they're level. Definitely seems more comfortable that way...though mostly because the reach now seems right.


Any pics outside in natural sunlight yet?


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Fredrico said:


> Good reason to level the bars. Riding on level hoods won't induce carpal tunnel syndrome on the wrists. Arms bent at the elbows, with hands in line with forearms, very effectively absorbs shocks over bumps.
> 
> Level hoods also shifts a bit more weight forward, which satisfies the fore-aft balance the bike was designed for. Sitting up on those raised hoods puts too much weight over the back wheel, compromising the beautiful handling of this bike.


Yep! plus all that.


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

velodog said:


> Any pics outside in natural sunlight yet?


Not yet. Was raining like a ***** today so I took out my old Cannondale ...and then whaddya know, the sun actually _did_ come out!


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Pics in late afternoon sunlight from yesterday:




















Not sure these give a more accurate indication of the actual color than the hallway-of-death pic from earlier; it looks a bit more brown, less orange, in reality. I'm calling it "Terracotta" when anyone asks what color it is.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Glad to see the bars leveled out some. 9cm drop? Raced against RS and I recall his mount close to this but in the RS red.


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