# What happens to old carbon frames after 8-10 years?



## Spectre68 (Jun 8, 2004)

What will happen to the current generation of carbon frames after 8-10 years of use in terms of wear, durability and road feel. I know many of the 1st gen carbon frames came unglued over time. I've heard that carbon frames soften up over time. What else happens to carbon frames?


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

Spectre68 said:


> ..What else happens to carbon frames?


Same things that happen to 10 year old frames of any other material. They gather dust hanging in someones garage, they are sold used a few times and end up converted to some hipsters townie, a joint fails and they are trashed, the kid heading to college inherits the thing and it ends up locked to an outdoor rack and the parts rust and dry rot.

The list is endless.

Or you could just keep maintaining and riding it. Sure the colors, decals and parts are no longer happening and stylish but the ride is just as good as it ever was.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

They turn into _diamonds_! Well, that's what I heard.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> They turn into _diamonds_! Well, that's what I heard.


Absolutely. That's why I store mine at 5 GPa (725,000psi) and 1500 °C (2700°F). 



Spectre68 said:


> What will happen to the current generation of carbon frames after 8-10 years of use in terms of wear, durability and road feel. I know many of the 1st gen carbon frames came unglued over time. I've heard that carbon frames soften up over time. What else happens to carbon frames?


 Pretty much all current carbon frames have lifetime warranties. So in 8-10yrs if they're all coming unglued, I imagine there will be lots of warranty claims.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

I was chatting with an USAC official about free lap mechanicals and somehow the topic of usable life of a frame came up.

He said that 'generally it is a good idea to replace a frame after 60,000 miles of racing and training.' Not sure if there is a source to that 'data' but he was alluding to the potential for accumulated dings and incidents that could occur over that time period. Potentially resulting in a failure during racing (or training).......

I think most people who race won't keep a frame that long (5 - 6yrs). Maybe some......That is about 5 -6 years on a frame for most of the guys I race with......Maybe longer since some of the 10 - 12k miles are year are split between road, CX, and MTN.

Others will likely ride it until it fails....whenever that might be.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Spectre68 said:


> I know many of the 1st gen carbon frames came unglued over time.


This was because many of the first generation carbon frames were made by gluing round carbon tubes into external aluminum lugs. To accommodate easily available components, those carbon tubes had the same diameter as commonly used steel tubing in those days. This meant that there was very little surface area for the adhesive to cling to. A non-issue in 2013—unless you're planning to buy one of those old skinny-tubed, aluminum-lugged carbon frames.


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## zyzbot (Feb 3, 2004)

Spectre68 said:


> What will happen to the current generation of carbon frames after 8-10 years of use in terms of wear, durability and road feel. I know many of the 1st gen carbon frames came unglued over time. I've heard that carbon frames soften up over time. What else happens to carbon frames?


My carbon frame is currently 11 years old and still going strong.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I'll answer about current CF frames lasting 10 years 10 years from now, but I got one here from 1999 that's still going fine.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Spectre68 said:


> What will happen to the current generation of carbon frames after 8-10 years of use in terms of wear, durability and road feel.


After 8-10 years? Nothing. Well, unless you crash it, run over it with your car, drive your car into your garage with the bike on a roof rack, or stuff of that nature.


Spectre68 said:


> I know many of the 1st gen carbon frames came unglued over time.


 This will not happen to any of the more recent frames (less than maybe 10-15 years old).


Spectre68 said:


> I've heard that carbon frames soften up over time.


That's pure nonsense, in my very own opinion. It is an excellent excuse, however, for buying a new bike if you get tired of the old one's color scheme over time. At least your significant other may buy that one...


sdeeer said:


> He said that 'generally it is a good idea to replace a frame after 60,000 miles of racing and training.'


Heh, that's roughly the equivalent of 30 years of use by a weekend warrior...


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Shhhh!*



Pirx said:


> That's pure nonsense.


I wonder if you could edit that out of your post? Steel, aluminum and carbon "softening up over time" has been used by countless riders to justify the purchase of a new frame or an entire new bicycle to those who questioned the need for one. Unless people younger than I don't use it longer, I hate to see this useful myth debunked in a public forum.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

wim said:


> I wonder if you could edit that out of your post? Steel, aluminum and carbon "softening up over time" has been used by countless riders to justify the purchase of a new frame or an entire new bicycle to those who questioned the need for one. Unless people younger than I don't use it longer, I hate to see this useful myth debunked in a public forum.


Heheh, sorry... O.k., I'll try.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

View attachment 285097


Here is my mid 90's frame. Still riding and loving life. I use it as a lender, to help get people into riding. 

That and I have this one I still ride on occasion 
View attachment 285098


Of course my main ride (over 2 thousand miles this year so far) is a mid 80's guercotti that I love. Steel is real

View attachment 285099


These first gen carbon had some issues, but many of them are still riding today. 

Bill


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

Just like a plastic bag in the landfill it does not degrade. As mentioned above, unless you crash it or the joints come apart it will ride the same forever


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

You put old carbon frames out in the sun where they burst into flames like a vampire. 

I have a 20 year old steel US Team GT that I still ride frequently, a 1997 steel GT that I use for my "go fast" bike in group rides, and a 1998 Merckx MXL. I don't think any of them are approaching failure.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Spectre68 said:


> What else happens to carbon frames?


You can boil them in acetone, decant the supernatant into a mayonnaise jar, and ship back to China, to be mixed with the local water supply.

Excellent avatar, btw.


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## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

wim said:


> This was because many of the first generation carbon frames were made by gluing round carbon tubes into external aluminum lugs. To accommodate easily available components, those carbon tubes had the same diameter as commonly used steel tubing in those days. This meant that there was very little surface area for the adhesive to cling to. A non-issue in 2013—unless you're planning to buy one of those old skinny-tubed, aluminum-lugged carbon frames.


Great response! And 100% accurate from everything I know.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

My 2001 C-40 rides just as well as the day I got it. 

I don't understand the urban legends associated with carbon fiber. Its a s strong or stronger than anything else. Would you ask the same questions about titanium bikes, or steel bikes?


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

pmf said:


> I don't understand the urban legends associated with carbon fiber. Its a s strong or stronger than anything else.


These legends have their roots in the fact that carbon fiber stuff is more susceptible to damage from _external_ forces than titanium or steel. If you whack carbon fiber hard, there's a good chance it'll slowly come undone at that spot similar to fabric unraveling over time. But this has nothing to do with the loads and stresses generated in normal use, for which carbon fiber components can be made stronger per weight than steel or titanium.

Saying that carbon fiber frames are fragile is like saying aerobatics-certified airplanes able to withstand +10g and -10g loadings are fragile because you can't walk on the wing surfaces in your hiking boots.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Pirx said:


> That's pure nonsense, in my very own opinion. It is an excellent excuse, however ....


LOL, I wasn't entirely serious. Had I been, I would have had to delete my entire post after you read it....  I remember someone in the 1970s lathering on and on about the "molecular attraction in the steel having clearly diminished over time." Indeed.


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## Gregon2wheels (May 7, 2013)

wim said:


> These legends have their roots in the fact that carbon fiber stuff is more susceptible to damage from _external_ forces than titanium or steel. If you whack carbon fiber hard, there's a good chance it'll slowly come undone at that spot similar to fabric unraveling over time. But this has nothing to do with the loads and stresses generated in normal use, for which carbon fiber components can be made stronger per weight than steel or titanium.


Digging up an old thread instead of starting a new one. I ride a 1997 steel frame that is nearing the end of its life due to old standards and lack of parts (Italian threaded BB, skinny head tube, etc.). It's got various dings from parking lot drops due to wind gusts, scratches on brick walls, etc. These are light weight external forces. I also have a car trunk mounted rack which holds the bike at the top tube.

Are these low force external forces sufficient to add up to damage and destruction of a carbon frame in 4 or 5 years? Not an ultralightweight one, but a fondo/endurance frame. As excited as I get about new technology, I'm a quasi-Luddite when it comes to bicycles and when I find something I like, I like to ride it for a long, long time. I just replaced a 17 year old mountain bike this year because of those fancy disc brakes and 29" wheels I just learned about.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

wim said:


> This was because many of the first generation carbon frames were made by gluing round carbon tubes into external aluminum lugs. To accommodate easily available components, those carbon tubes had the same diameter as commonly used steel tubing in those days. This meant that there was very little surface area for the adhesive to cling to. A non-issue in 2013—unless you're planning to buy one of those old skinny-tubed, aluminum-lugged carbon frames.


my 20-year old Specialized Allez Epic is a glued carbon bike and is still getting ~500 miles a year put on it. I relegated it to back-up bike status a few years ago, but it looks fine and rides as nicely as when new. 

since it hasn't failed after 75K+ miles, it seems like it's safe enough for occasional rides and roller duties.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

If you like that old steel frame, plenty of parts are still out there though some are quite scarce. Since converting mine to 10 spd, it will continue on as long as my interest holds. Campy and Chris King have those headsets and Italian BB are around.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

My Specialized Epic 1988 Dura Ace bike is fine. Lots of miles, several owners, some of the paint is peeling off, but the bike is solid, no problems with the carbon tubes coming out of the aluminum lugs. Just rides pretty rough compared to newer bikes


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## Cyberduc748 (Jul 13, 2006)

1993 Kestrel 200SCi still running strong. Recently upgraded with SRAM Force. Great commuter bike.


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## 4slomo (Feb 11, 2008)

I ride a semi-custom steel frame as my daily rider, purchased in 1976. Oh yeah, I forgot that this thread was about carbon frames, sorry about that!
...


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Cyberduc748 said:


> 1993 Kestrel 200SCi still running strong. Recently upgraded with SRAM Force. Great commuter bike.


Same here. Mine from '95 and made in Santa Cruz. 36,000 miles and relegated to commuter duty years ago. Kestrel originated the super sturdy monocoque construction; none of the glue in joint crud. Took some heavy hits in a group ride pile-up. No problemo. Still rides perfect as new.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Spectre68 said:


> What will happen to the current generation of carbon frames after 8-10 years of use in terms of wear, durability and road feel. I know many of the 1st gen carbon frames came unglued over time. I've heard that carbon frames soften up over time. What else happens to carbon frames?


Nothing, I still have my last Carbon bike from 2003 and the frame is still in good shape. That said, any poorly built anything won't last. One reason to stay away from overly-light/thin carbon, steel or anything.


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## Insight Homewood (Aug 15, 2013)

I currently have over 5500 miles on my custom Calfee Tetra Pro carbon fiber bike. I have had tires wear out. I have had a pedal spring break on me. My chain rings got pretty worn so I got new ones and a new chain (since you can't put a new chain on worn chain rings, nor new chain rings on a worn chain). I have dings in the finish on my 2007 era bike. Will the frame wear out in time? Not likely. At some point I think I would like it repainted; it could be inspected at the factory at that point and any repair necessary could be done then. 

Steel will rust if not protected. Steel parts can break in many ways, yet they don't "wear out," over time.

Titanium will not rust. It will not likely wear out over time.

Aluminum alloys have a fatigue limit. An aluminum frame will eventually break if constantly used. It is possible, however, that the lifetime of that frame may exceed that of the owner.

My initial fears with carbon is that it could fail catastrophically without warning. I wondered if I pulled hard on my handle bars they would break. Over time I have gained confidence and now see carbon fiber as a material that is very tough and rugged. I am confident that any damage that would render the frame unsafe would be visible and detectable before failure.

One final comment, Carbon fiber composite is sensitive to ultraviolet. An unpainted frame left in the sun for years may degrade to the point that the frame is unsafe.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

How do you wear out a set of chainrings after only 5500 miles? They should last many times that. 

my oldest steel bike is now 17 years old. I am still waiting for it to rust out. I may have to wait a couple of more decades.


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## Insight Homewood (Aug 15, 2013)

:thumbsup:


DaveG said:


> How do you wear out a set of chainrings after only 5500 miles? They should last many times that.


I live in Sacramento, California. The dust here (where there are many more sunny days than most parts of the country) is composed of decomposed granite. Its very abrasive. On top of that, the chain rings are aluminum, not steel, designed for a compact drive setup. As I commute on the bike and ride it hard I had delayed in changing out the chain when I should have. Keep in mind that it varies a lot due to so many factors. While I am not that meticulous, I do keep my chain pretty clean. This is the second chain I have put on the bike. While it may seem like a short time, for the kind of riding I do, I tend to agree. At any rate, the new chain and chain rings work very well and my 10-speed cassette is still good.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2013)

Twice this last year while in bike shops riders came in with carbon frames that had broken. I don't know the story behind them as i was just a guy in there looking to buy something. But both times it was a split in the right side chain stay.


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## Duane Behrens (Nov 8, 2013)

MB1 said:


> Same things that happen to 10 year old frames of any other material. They gather dust hanging in someones garage, they are sold used a few times and end up converted to some hipsters townie, a joint fails and they are trashed, the kid heading to college inherits the thing and it ends up locked to an outdoor rack and the parts rust and dry rot.
> 
> The list is endless.
> 
> Or you could just keep maintaining and riding it. Sure the colors, decals and parts are no longer happening and stylish but the ride is just as good as it ever was.



Thank you. I was taken to task recently for wanting to bring an old steel-framed road bike to life. Thank the flying spaghetti monster I didn't listen, took it all apart anyway, and put it back together correctly. I've now been riding this 30-year-old bike for the last five days in a row - and having the time of my life. Comfort I'd never dreamed of in a bike that climbs and accelerates so well. 

Hope to do the same with my carbon when IT is 30 years old.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

fast ferd said:


> Kestrel originated the super sturdy monocoque construction; none of the glue in joint crud


A buddy has a Kestrel elevated chainstay mountain bike fron the early 90s. Rides it all year round, that thing is awesome.


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## did291 (Sep 12, 2011)

lighthouse54.1 said:


> Twice this last year while in bike shops riders came in with carbon frames that had broken. I don't know the story behind them as i was just a guy in there looking to buy something. But both times it was a split in the right side chain stay.


Sound like they used it on trainer the hard way. That's why i kept my first bike , alu specialized.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> A buddy has a Kestrel elevated chainstay mountain bike fron the early 90s. Rides it all year round, that thing is awesome.


I have one of those. Tough SOB (the bike, not me). I once t-boned a tree stump so hard that the rear derailleur cable popped out of the guides. I figure that any metal frame would have folded from that impact...


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## Insight Homewood (Aug 15, 2013)

wow, back in the day, that was a common place where steel bikes would fail, since that is the highest stress area of the bike.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

After ten years I want a new bike. There's no incontrovertible logic here, but I feel ten years, you've more than amortized down the original cost and given it seems bike companies and equipment manufacturers update their products every 4-5 years you've basically let two product cycles go by so the new bike is likely to be a decent upgrade.


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