# My road bike re-fit in review (drastic changes were made)



## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Following the advice of someone on this forum, can't remember who, when I discussed buying a new hybrid, I took my road bike in for a fit revision.

I went to Big Bang Bicycles. The owner, Glen, was helping another customer around the time I booked my fit appointment. Little did I realize that the other customer he was helping was this guy: 

https://www.pnc.com/webapp/unsec/So...rganization/Executive+Team/William+S.+Demchak

I was giving basic bike handling advice to William Demchak.

So the first thing he did was notice that I was wearing the wrong size of shoe. The shoes I were wearing were at least two and a half sizes too big. I was in a 44 and he pulled a 41 pair out to try on, which I ended up keeping. I was flopping around in those shoes compared to the new ones, which hug my feet significantly more and do a much better job of wrapping at the toe box. Apparently Nashbar is taking my old pair back, even though they were purchased in 2012, and they're sending me a gift card for the value of the shoes.

So then he looks at my cleat adjustment, and he doesn't like that either, so he fixes the cleats on the new shoes in order to provide neutral riding position for my feet.

When he sits me on the bike, he makes me spin and tells me that he usually sets up the back of the bike first, and then moves to the front of the bike, before later looking at it all as a whole after the adjustments are done. At the back of the bike, he said I was stretched too far back and that the seatpost had been pile-driven down. He raised the seat and moved it forward, and used a goniometer and drop weight to calibrate my fit at the back.

Then he goes to the front of the bike and says that my brake hoods were too internally rotated. Also, he said that the handlebars seemed too high up to him, and rotated up too far. So he takes three (3) spacers out from beneath the handlebars and places them on top, dropping the handlebars to who knows how many centimeters from their current position. I reached down to get onto the hoods and my elbows bent naturally, my shoulders rounded ahead of me and the man said that I now finally looked like a cyclist to him.

He commented that my handlebars were probably too wide for me (42 c-c for a 40.3 inch shoulder measurement) and that I should probably be riding a 38 center to center. He also noted that the cables on the bike were incorrectly measured for length when they were installed, and they have thus been digging into the fork of the bike (the paint on that section where the housing overlaps the fork is gone, there's just bare aluminum there now). He said that cable re-running should not be attempted unless the handlebar sizing was changed, which he said should not be happening until after I put some miles down in the new position and help him with feedback to see if he wants to pull more spacers and flip the stem for me.

His mechanic put carbon lube on the seatpost and torqued everything down, and then I heard something I didn't want to hear. His mechanic said I had the fifth worst chain he has ever seen, and that a new chain would skip off the current components because the old stretched-out chain has worn them down. He said it would cost around $200 to find a new casette, crank and chain (I honestly haven't looked) that would be a suitable replacement for these three current components. Then I turned to the fitter and asked the most important question: Whether or not the bike was the right size for me.

So Glen hemmed and hawed the slightest bit before giving me this answer; he would ideally like to see me ride something with a shorter top tube and a steeper seat tube angle if my aspiration cycling-wise is to train and race. For this bike, his plan for me is to have me keep riding it until he can dial in my fit as closely as possible, at which point he would be able to write down and hand me, shopping-list style, frame dimensions for the type of bicycle I would need for optimum biomechanical performance. He told me that, whether or not I decide to buy a new road bike, the components I have on my current bike right now would probably last me another 1000 miles or so before the needle starts to enter the Danger zone. After that, he suggested I take the fitting suggestions and buy a bicycle in January, justifying this advice with some long explanation about how pure road bikes are not as popular as they used to be because the general public typically has no use for a speed machine. So for now I suppose, he's holding off on the handlebar replacing and the cable re-running, simply because if I end up opting to buy a new bike then there's no point in trying to push those improvements on a 'B' bike.

Fit session cost $50 (I was there for 3 hours, it's supposed to be a 1 hour static fit)
New shoes 20% off, $80
New cleats 15% off, ~$30

I would say that, if there is an actual gain in comfort and speed (riding tomorrow, we shall see) and if he doesn't charge me $50 for every successive visit (which I'm hoping he won't do because he seems cool, and sympathetic to my frugality) then this may have been one of the turning-point decisions I've made regarding this sport.

At first I was confused at why Heath from La Bicicletta did not point out or try all of these things with me, and then I realized that someone mentioned on here a while ago that fit was dynamic. Therefore, my body back then probably looked very different on the bike compared to my body today.

If I do end up training in the next few months and decide I'm ready to try my hand at a few races NEXT season, I think I might have to test ride some carbon bikes. I've done the whole $580 entry-level bike thing, and if I'm to buy another bike for this hobby, then the plan is to spend twice the amount of money I spent on the first and buy *THE * bike. Whether it's aluminum or carbon, I guess will depend on how each of them rides to me. I don't really see the point of buying something light just because it weighs 5 pounds less, I'm pretty sure 2 months of dieting would provide the same advantage, but if riding carbon really does murder road buzz then I think I'd better give it a shot. When that time comes, I'll be back on here asking about types of carbon and brands. What I do know from Glen in terms of fit and short top tubes is that, apparently, I should be riding a frame like that of specialized, Trek, not cannondale, not something else, something, something, couldn't remember all the names, but yeah he seemed to know which bike brands would suit me and which would not, not that I've actually verified this by looking at geo charts.

So that's how the fit session went. Hope you guys found that useful, I always post these in the beginner forum to illustrate just how pivotal a good fitter can be.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Sounds like you need to start taking better care of your drivetrain.

Even after what the mechanic said, in your shoes, I'd probably still do what I always do: start with the chain and replace the cassette only if it skips, and the chainrings only if they skip, and only the problematic ones.

My brother maybe takes this a little far, but he's decided he's not going to freak out too much about money while he's in residency. He's trying to live within his current means but his loans are in forbearance. Which seems reasonable - his compensation's going to get quite a lot larger as an attending or in private practice, so why inflict a self-defeatingly poor lifestyle on himself now?

The new racing motorcycle may be a little far. It's depressing how inexpensive those are. Still more than a bike, but not as much as I'd have expected.

Point being, if this guy wants to charge you the next time you take up a huge chunk of his work day, don't fight it. And if you're serious about racing, or even just having a bike with a low COO over time, $1160 is a really low MSRP.

TBH, I don't think it would be wasteful to make the suggested changes now, if you wouldn't be buying a new bike for another six months. I lived with a handlebar I hated for years. It's a $40 part (FSA Omega Compact is my current favorite) and makes a huge difference. Kind of like having a saddle I like. Recabling isn't very hard, but it is a bit fiddly. You're probably over due for it. And if you're going to call this sport a hobby, you need to work on your own bikes. 

Do your first Century yet?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Sounds like a good LBS you have there. I'd stick with them.

How many miles do you have on the bike?


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

At this point I probably have around 3000-3500 miles on the bike. I went through phases where I would count and then wouldn't count, now I've recently started counting my commuter miles but I really need to count my training miles as well if scheduled maintenance and chain / cable replacement is going to be an issue, which I had previously ignored completely.

I never really thought too hard about cost of ownership regarding bicycles, but you have a point. I also never really thought about how much I've actually been saving because I always transfer my money to an investment portfolio, and it grows but then I don't really want to touch it. Looks like I've saved 46% of my net income this year, sounds good to me. I should probably cut myself more slack where cycling-related expenses are concerned for next year (my "year" starts in July) and drop money on a new bike when the time is right (January), IF i adhere to a training regimen that involves at least an hour and a half of rec riding a day, in addition to my commutes. I'll probably build up to that though.

I'm currently running an FSA Omega Compact, and while I agree that it may indeed make a huge difference to go from 42 c-c to 38 c-c, I would counterpoint with what the fitter said, which is that my body should adjust to all the other changes first before giving it something more to which to adjust. This coupled with the likely possibility that I'll be posting a "New bike" pic not later than 6 months from now makes me hesitant to push for that handlebar change and re-cabling immediately.

I do agree that I need to work on my own bikes. I've been volunteering at Free Ride PGH, a bike collective that teaches people how to work on bikes. There, I've been taking apart bottom brackets, tuning rear derailleurs, adjusting brakes, truing wheels, a multitude of things to help inexperienced rec riders who don't have the means or the inclination to go to a bike shop, or people who just want to learn how to work on bikes. I could work on my own if I wanted to, just if I'm going to buy a new bike I don't see it as cost effective right now. The bike is safe, but it's not optimal. I'd rather get the fit dialed in first to make my position and sizing optimal before spending on parts to get the mechanics optimal. The plan is to enter maybe one C race this season if that, so there's no rush on this for me.

First century might happen next weekend, after night shift ends, on Sunday. Half century happened while I was on vacation, posted in "commuting, touring and ride reports".


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> His mechanic said I had the fifth worst chain he has ever seen, and that a new chain would skip off the current components because the old stretched-out chain has worn them down. He said it would cost around $200 to find a new casette, crank and chain





jfd986 said:


> At this point I probably have around 3000-3500 miles on the bike.


I think your mechanic hasn't seen too many chains. 3500mi isn't all that much. Unless you've never lubed it, it's likely your cassette is still ok. And I doubt you'll need new chainrings. Those should last 10k miles.

Learn to check your chain for wear yourself. You'll be able to tell if you need just a new chain or a cassette too. "http://miketechinfo.com/SRAM/chains2.htm"

I have around 4500mi on my current chain. And I don't even have 1/32" of wear.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I think you hit pay dirt with that LBS. Even if it wasn't a full blown pro fitting, a 3 hour fit session for $50 is a gift.

I'm not surprised that your fit changed a fair amount. Improved fitness/ flexibility can do that. I looked at my fit parameters from the early 90's and my current fit is far different - and at that point I had been riding for ~6 years or so. Yours will continue to evolve, over time.

Re: the chain/ cassette/ ring issue, hard to say without seeing them, but I tend to agree that you may not need to replace the cassette... and even more so, the rings. That said (TBH) you should take the minimal time and pay the minimal expense to clean and lube your chain periodically. That's all it takes to get maximum life and better performance from your drivetrain.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I did a bike refit not too long ago. It was even more involved. Not only were measurements taken, but I was checked for flexibility and video-taped while riding on a stationary bike set up for just such a purpose. These sessions can be useful, especially if it is found you are riding with the seat too high/low or if the cleat of your pedal is not properly positioned under the ball of your foot, or if they determine handbars being too wide or narrow, etc. There are some bike-shops across the country who have taken the whole fitting process and turned it into a science, but one can certainly get a great fitting with less technology.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> I think you hit pay dirt with that LBS. Even if it wasn't a full blown pro fitting, a 3 hour fit session for $50 is a gift.
> 
> I'm not surprised that your fit changed a fair amount. Improved fitness/ flexibility can do that. I looked at my fit parameters from the early 90's and my current fit is far different - and at that point I had been riding for ~6 years or so. Yours will continue to evolve, over time.
> 
> Re: the chain/ cassette/ ring issue, hard to say without seeing them, but I tend to agree that you may not need to replace the cassette... and even more so, the rings. That said (TBH) you should take the minimal time and pay the minimal expense to clean and lube your chain periodically. That's all it takes to get maximum life and better performance from your drivetrain.


What are the mileage markers at which point you clean the chain, lube the chain, and replace the chain? How about replacing the cables, lubing all the pivot points?

Every _?_ miles, a cyclist should:

1) Clean the chain
2) Lube the chain
3) Replace the chain
4) Replace the brake cables
5) Replace the derailleur cables

Brake shoes I know to replace because I can see the wear line. All this other stuff is more preventive, and I just need to know where to set the alarms on my bike computer app. 

I could look these numbers up, but I'd rather ask someone with actual mileage and experience.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> Every _?_ miles, a cyclist should:


1) Clean the chain: When it looks grimey. Cleaning a chain is generally not necessary. Cleaning the outside doesn't accomplish anything other than make it look pretty. Inside the rollers (where the wear actually occurs) is pretty hard to clean. The best way to do that is remove it from the bike and soak it in mineral spirits.

2) Lube the chain: When it's lacking lube. This is dependent on the lube you use and the conditions you ride in. Sound is usually the best give away. A lubed chain should be quiet. When the chain starts to get a little noisy it's time for lube.


3) Replace the chain: When it's worn. This will tell you how to measure that. Chains

4) Replace the brake cables:
5) Replace the derailleur cables: These will vary with the amount of shifting, braking, and riding conditions. Once a year is a good choice for most people. Or if you notice any drag/sluggishness in your shifting or braking.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

tlg said:


> 3) Replace the chain: When it's worn. This will tell you how to measure that. Chains


The easiest way to measure the chain is to put it on the large chainwheel, then pull up on the chain, like this. I'm not quite sure how much wear is bad, but if you can see the top of the teeth, it is probably time to get a new chain.

If your cluster and chainwheel are already worn, but aren't skipping, then I'd just use them until they start causing problems such as skipping teeth on your cluster/cassette. 

Just put on a new chain, and see how it rides. I've given up on fancy top of the line chains, but perhaps others will have a different opinion. You'll know if you're skipping teeth.

Assuming a reasonably good bike, then the chainwheel should be replacable, and you won't need new cranks. I suppose if it is a K-Mart special, you'll need cranks too, but the cranks and chainwheels should last a very long time.

I've changed a few clusters over the years, some for skipping, some for different gearing, or different wheels. However, my outer chainwheel was probably replaced in the late 80's. The inner chainwheel was on my bike when I got it used in 1982. I don't put on a lot of miles, but it adds up over a few decades.

As far as handlebars, I grew up using curved drop handlebars, but find myself riding holding the top quite a bit now. Quite a few years ago, Dad took a "road bike", and put on the straight bars, and absolutely loved it. Customize the bike like you want if you're just doing commuting or pleasure riding. No need to go full-out racing unless you actually are racing. Converting a racing bike into a commuter bike can be an absolute pleasure to ride... as long as you can deal with the tires and wheels.

I do all of my bike maintenance. The only time it is ever in a bike shop is when I'm too lazy to lock it up outside, and just need to buy a tube or something at the counter. I'd rather pay $500 to $1000 for a nice used bike than paying $1000 for a mediocre new one.

I think my nearly 50 year old steel bike is lighter than many of the 100% aluminum bikes on the market today ($500 and less). I've been looking at doing some upgrades, and just a halfway decent component gruppo can cost a pretty penny more than you paid for your bike.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jfd986 said:


> What are the mileage markers at which point you clean the chain, lube the chain, and replace the chain? How about replacing the cables, lubing all the pivot points?
> 
> Every _?_ miles, a cyclist should:
> 
> ...


Thinking in terms of mileage makers doesn't work because (as an example) you could clean and lube your chain and ride for a total of 10-12 hours in dry conditions before needing to relube, then relube and get caught in a downpour, necessitating another cleaning/ relube. You wont go too far wrong following tlg's #2. 

BTW, FWIW, my chain only comes off the bike when it's time for a replacement. A good lube is also a good degreaser, so as you're cleaning/ lubing, the grit and dirt will be purged from the chain. You can almost always get more dirt out of a chain, but IMO/E regular cleaning/ lubing (especially after wet rides) is a good balance between attaining good performance/ max life and spending time cleaning/ lubing versus riding. 

Nothing fancy needed for chain replacement either. I follow the +1/16" rule and have replaced several chains while retaining the same cassette/ chainrings.

Re: replacing brake/ der cables (again) the conditions you ride in will affect longevity, but (as an example) I live in fairly wet, humid conditions and can get ~4k miles or about 6-7 months out of der cables. More with brake cables. 

Cable _housings_ can affect shifting/ braking performance, so replace those after a couple of years as well.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

jfd986 said:


> What are the mileage markers at which point you clean the chain, lube the chain, and replace the chain? How about replacing the cables, lubing all the pivot points?
> 
> Every _?_ miles, a cyclist should:
> 
> ...


Didn't you post these same questions a while ago? You're not going to get a set of actual figures this time either. It's highly sensitive to your riding environment, and the extent to which you care for your gear.

Here's what I do -
I try to give my chain a wipe with a dry rag after every ride. No, I don't get the dirt that's inside the rollers. But I think it helps.

If my chain was noisy, I relubricate it. First, I measure it with a tape measure, for stretch.

Bicycle chains are half-inch pitch. That means the rivets should be 1/2" apart, with a very tight tolerance. I do the same measurement someone else mentioned - I measure 12 link pairs. That should be very close to 12". If it's 12-1/16", I replace.

My cassette's a little more subjective - if the shifting gets worse instead of better with a new chain, it may be time for a new cassette. If one of the cogs starts skipping with a new chain, it's time for a new cassette. My chain rings are basically the same, although it depends a little how precious I'm feeling about that bike. The inside faces of chainrings wear out a little faster than the teeth, IME, so if I don't care that much, I can get several thousand more miles out of a chainring.

I'm pretty lazy about replacing cables unless I just can't get my drivetrain to shift well. I also think the housing is more important than the cable itself, which has a near-infinite life. Lately, it seems like I find myself replacing housings more in association with some other change than independently. Like trashing a rear derailleur or a handlebar or something. I can't help thinking they've gotten better lately, and I've also stopped lubricating them, so I think mine stay cleaner. I guess if you wanted a metric, you could do them when you do your cassette.

I've gotten into using Strava over the last couple years. One of the things that it can do is track mileage on individual components. It occurred to me that I could use that to help me track maintenance and also record the life I'm getting from things like chains and brake pads. I'm curious to see if a little more expensive chain lasts longer than the SRAM PC-1030 that came on my new bike, for example, and I've gotten more curious about tire life. It hasn't told me a whole lot yet. The only bike I ride enough to have worn out anything since starting to do this is the new MTB. But if I don't get bored, maybe in a couple more seasons I'll start to see some meaningful patterns. Anyway, given your desire to quantify things, it may be worth a look. It handles a lot of the recording and organization that I've never been organized enough to do myself. (I can't even repeatably record time trial times on a trail, and Strava can do that for trail sections I didn't even know someone cared about!  )


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

You did 3K miles in shoes that were two sizes too large? WTF?! Did you triple sock it? I mean, how did you not feel your foot swimming in your shoe? I had a pair of shoes which were 1/2 size too large, which I hated with a passion. Now, when I ride I can even tell when my ankle ratchet needs a click or two. That just struck me as very, very odd. 

Stretching is the truf, especially if you're a desk jockey like I am.


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

The shoe thing is making me chuckle, because the bike fitting dude pointed out the size issue, like your mum poking your big toe when you tried shoes on as a kid? Once you are about 10 yrs old, you can tell if shoes fit. Now if you like a bigger bike shoe, fair enough, I do. For me, there is no need for a tight road shoe as long as my cleat is right and my heel doesn't slip.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I sympathize some with blowing it on sizing a cycling shoe.

I size a casual or running shoe to be able to walk around without finding the toe. But cycling shoes don't flex, or very little, and they mostly aren't very walkable at the best of times. So it can be tricky to have a good sense without actually riding a bike in them.

It took me nine hours over a couple rides to give up on some too-small shoes recently. Of course I had a couple reasons to be _sure_ they should fit me. And I could flatten my toes. But they were definitely too small.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

I sized the shoes from the sizing chart on Nashbar, and when they arrived I wore them, and they seemed to fit "fine", for a shoe in general. I didn't realize they had to fit like a glove and wrap around my foot and all this business, I just wore them as a shoe like any other shoe that clips onto the bike.

At 70% of max effort on my daily commute, I am now 15% faster with all these modifications than I was before at 70% (28 minutes instead of 33). The "time trial" was, however, done with a pair of sneakers in my backpack, which is not typical. However, I don't want to blow out my legs and I want to give my body time to adjust to the new position, so I'll be easy-riding it for the next couple of weeks, at least before I take the bike back.

Everything is better with this new fit. Truth be told, I haven't taken it on any long rides, but once I clear night shift, I may take on a century next Sunday.

I took a tape measure to the chain, and it's somewhat ridiculous how worn it is. I assumed at first that I was measuring wrong, but I double checked. I hope everyone is sitting down for this. It looks like I have about 1/2-3/4" of wear. I'm not surprised how shocked the mechanic was, and he was well within his general guidelines to tell me that the whole drivetrain probably needs replacing. I don't know that it really would, based on what you all have told me I may be able to put a new chain on and have it not skip.

The shoes were purchased in December 2012. Nashbar took them back and sent me a gift card for them, so if Free Ride PGH doesn't have new 8-speed chains on sale, I'll pick up one of these:
Nashbar 7/8-speed Chain - Chains


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

If you're measuring correctly and it's really that worn (I didn't think they could stretch that much without breaking!) I'll be surprised if the rest of your drivetrain's not trashed too. I feel a pang of guilt if I get to 3/32" of stretch.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> At this point I probably have around 3000-3500 miles on the bike.





jfd986 said:


> I took a tape measure to the chain, and it's somewhat ridiculous how worn it is. I assumed at first that I was measuring wrong, but I double checked. I hope everyone is sitting down for this. It looks like I have about 1/2-3/4" of wear. I'm not surprised how shocked the mechanic was, and he was well within his general guidelines to tell me that the whole drivetrain probably needs replacing.


I think you measured wrong. Or have WAY more miles on a poorly maintained chain than 3k.

1/16" is .5% wear (which is the "magic" number to replace your chain)
1/2"-3/4" would be 4%-6% wear. That's 8-12x greater. In only 3k? I don't believe it. 

And how are you getting 1/2" to 3/4"? That's a 1/4" difference.  It can't be a 1/4" range of distance. You need to be measuring with a 1/32" accuracy. You're doing something wrong.


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## Alfonsina (Aug 26, 2012)

I don't understand LOL, you sent 2 yr old shoes that you bought too big and Nashsar gave you money back for them? They refunded you for your own error? How did you manage that?


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

a lot of places have generous return policies. I never return or abuse, matter of fact I buy some of those items returned by others. Outfits like Backcountry and others let you return anything for a year plus and simply give you store credit, no questions asked. 

Still 2.5 sizes too large? How do you unclip a shoe when you foot/heel is swimming in it.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Okay so they seemed to fit well enough to me, I really didn't have any trouble clipping in and out, I basically would just do the straps up as tight as I could and they seemed to be snug.

Yes, return policies tend to be generous. No, I didn't know how to size myself for a road bike shoe when I bought one. And yes, their sizing chart was way off.

When I went to the bike store, the fitter brought out a foot measuring pad and I placed my foot in it, and found out what my cycling shoe size is supposed to be. Toe poking came afterwards.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Okay guys, so I rode a century and went back to the fitter, had some knee pain which he chalked up to a cleat needing adjustment AND to riding g a century with essentially no training (aside from some 40- mile rides on the weekends )

He said that the bike I have right now has man problems and needs replacing, but also said that I would be best suited with a carbon bike if I'm buying again. He said I'd get 25-30% improvement in performance and he said that if I bought an aluminum bike the performance increase would be ~10%. The commuting and ride reports guys say he's just trying to make a sale and that I should get a second opinion on my fit and my bikes condition. Would you guys agree? He said I was 'pushing up against a wall' with my current bike.

My chain is 3/16" worn, I remeasured.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> He said that the bike I have right now has man problems and needs replacing,


Your bike has 3000-3500 miles on it, and needs replacing? Bull$#!t


> but also said that I would be best suited with a carbon bike if I'm buying again. He said I'd get 25-30% improvement in performance


Bull$#!t


> and he said that if I bought an aluminum bike the performance increase would be ~10%.


Bull$#!t


> The commuting and ride reports guys say he's just trying to make a sale and that I should get a second opinion on my fit and my bikes condition. Would you guys agree?


I agree 10,000%



> My chain is 3/16" worn, I remeasured.


Well that sounds better than 1/2"-3/4". Still sounds like a lot for 3500mi. If it's the case you must take terrible care of your chain. You need a new chain and cassette. Possibly chainrings as well.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

tlg said:


> Your bike has 3000-3500 miles on it, and needs replacing? Bull$#!t
> Bull$#!t
> Bull$#!t
> I agree 10,000%
> ...


He said I could easily outrun the cost of a new bike by replacing what needs to be replaced on this bike. Assuming the drive train is all that needs replacing (he said something about the hubs as well but I'm gonna take it to a different mechanic today to double check on that) then I don't really see how I could outrun the cost of a new bike. The chain is $13, the cassette can be 20 off nashbar, assuming a 113 mm bottom bracket do you guys know where I can buy an inexpensive triple crank?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> He said I could easily outrun the cost of a new bike by replacing what needs to be replaced on this bike.


I would stay far away from this guy!


> Assuming the drive train is all that needs replacing (he said something about the hubs as well but I'm gonna take it to a different mechanic today to double check on that)


Hubs don't wear out in 3k mi. 



> then I don't really see how I could outrun the cost of a new bike. The chain is $13, the cassette can be 20 off nashbar, assuming a 113 mm bottom bracket do you guys know where I can buy an inexpensive triple crank?


Why do you want a crank and not just the chainrings?


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

tlg said:


> I would stay far away from this guy!
> Hubs don't wear out in 3k mi.
> 
> Why do you want a crank and not just the chainrings?


I had not thought of just buying the chainrings, will look into that on nashbar.

Assuming my new measurement of gain wear is correct and I'm 3/16" worn, do you think its likely that I put more than 3k on this bike?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> Assuming my new measurement of gain wear is correct and I'm 3/16" worn, do you think its likely that I put more than 3k on this bike?


You either put on way more than 3k mi or take extremely poor care of your chain. How often do you apply lube?

My current chain has 1/64" wear in 5k mi. But I take good care in lubing it.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

Yeah, I don't think I lube the chain as often as I should. I would apply lube every time I clean the drivetrain, but I would only do that once every 4-6 weeks. Im pretty sure that qualifies as extremely poor care. Its my understanding after reading more of what you guys have been saying that if I ride every day I should be lubing the chain every week, if it rains then every two or three rides, and I should probably be cleaning the chain more often as well.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

You're still not really getting what we're saying.

Stop trying to fit bicycle maintenance into a scheduled box. It's highly conditions dependent, conditions are really variable, and if you pay attention to the bike, it gives you good feedback.

Wipe your chain with a dry rag after every ride. I just leave one where I keep my bikes. It probably adds less than a minute when I get home. It's up to you if you want to do any of the more ritualistic things people mention. I can never be consistent about those, so I've chosen to do something that's easy enough to always do.

If your chain gets noisy, lube it. That might be one or two rides if it rains, and it might be a couple weeks if you use an oil that sticks well and the weather has been mild. So if you try to schedule it, you could work harder than you have to, which doesn't really hurt anything, or you could trash another drivetrain in 3000 miles.

Have you replaced anything at this point?

Also, with all due respect - I don't think you should try to replace your own chainrings. If they're done, get a mechanic to sell you the right part and do the work. If you don't trust the one you've been talking to, find one you like better.

What bike are you riding? Was $580 the retail? On the one hand, I'd be pretty angry if one of my hubs wore out in 3000 miles. On the other hand, I've done it. There are some pretty awful hubs out there on the cheapest bikes. I think it's more of a contamination issue than wear alone, but the end result is the same.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

jfd986 said:


> Okay guys, so I rode a century and went back to the fitter, had some knee pain which he chalked up to a cleat needing adjustment AND to riding g a century with essentially no training (aside from some 40- mile rides on the weekends )
> 
> He said that the bike I have right now has man problems and needs replacing, but also said that I would be best suited with a carbon bike if I'm buying again. He said I'd get 25-30% improvement in performance and he said that if I bought an aluminum bike the performance increase would be ~10%. The commuting and ride reports guys say he's just trying to make a sale and that I should get a second opinion on my fit and my bikes condition. Would you guys agree? He said I was 'pushing up against a wall' with my current bike.
> 
> My chain is 3/16" worn, I remeasured.


I'm suspiciuos of that, I see no reason why from a fitting perspective you're better served by Carbon vs say Steel or Titanium. Unless you are referring some other attribute.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I think you've gotten good advice above re: drivetrain maintenance and getting a second opinion on the hubs, so nothing to add there.

I do think the fitter gave you some sound advice re: the knee pain and overuse, so his niche may be bike geo/ fitting versus sales/ wrenching. 

Without seeing you on the bike, honing in on your fit requirements and knowing the current bikes geo, I can't see how we'll be able to critique his advice on a new bike - except to say that if you see any performance gains, it'll be from a better fit, not from a frame material or loss of a couple pounds of bike weight.

I'd be curious to know what his opinion would be re: the advantages of a new bike from a fitting standpoint alone.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> I think you've gotten good advice above re: drivetrain maintenance and getting a second opinion on the hubs, so nothing to add there.
> 
> I do think the fitter gave you some sound advice re: the knee pain and overuse, so his niche may be bike geo/ fitting versus sales/ wrenching.
> 
> ...



So I took the bike in for a second opinion from a different shop.

The guy at this shop didn't try to fit me on the bike at all, just basically trusted what the other fitter had done in terms of making adjustments. He did critique, though, that the saddle nose was angled down too much, something he said I should move up very slightly. I'm nervous about doing it but I think if I just take my time and hold everything steady I should be able to loosen the rail bolt (or whatever it's called) just enough to tilt the nose up and re-level the thing.

His overall impression of the bike seemed much more down to earth. He said that the bike is basically a bottom-of-the-line road bike, said he'd never seen a $580 road bike (it was a 2012 Louis Garneau Exalt, on sale from 800) and he said that, considering the overall condition of the bike, I shouldn't try to upgrade anything unless it breaks.

He said the chain was 0.75 or 75% or whatever that unit is, worn. He also said I shouldn't bother replacing the chain right now until it skips, and when I do I should replace the chain and the cassette. He said that, when that happens, there should be no need to replace the chain rings because they tend to wear much much slower than the chain and cassette.

Then he said that, if I'm comfortable with the bike as is, I shouldn't go out looking for a new bike just because of better fit alone, and he also said the hubs and the seatpost itself are fine. The wheels could use truing, one of the cables has cracked housing at the downtube ferrule and could be changed (which I haven't bothered doing because the thing still shifts well for me). He commented that 8 speed microshift is the bottom of the barrel, but they work. The handlebars could be smaller, but he said that would sacrifice stability so there's no real urgency to change them out post haste.

*Bottom line: * The second-opinion bike shop guy (let's call him Alan) said that, if the bike rides well enough for me, then there's no need to buy a new bike in a hurry, and there is no reason to upgrade anything on the current bike unless something fails (eg. chain skip).

Then he said something interesting. He said that, when I'm "ready", I should sell this bike (580 sale, 800 original) for $300 (I'm thinking 400 considering the Mavic Aksium with ~500 miles on it on the back, and the carbon seatpost) and then put that money toward a brand new bike. He said the bike should be carbon when I buy it, because if I'm going to spend $1000+ on a bike it "may as well" be carbon, smoother ride and better energy transfer, and he said that, when buying a new bike, the most important characteristics are 1) The frame 2) The wheels and 3) The parts , in that order. However, he also said that, if I were to buy a new bike to replace this one which would be sold at that point, I would first need to go to his fitter (Tom Chaney or something like that, didn't actually get the man's contact info) and he said that Tom does competitive fitting, $200 for a 2 hr + session, and would include all manner of sizing necessary to be able to go forward purchasing a bicycle that would fit like a glove. He said that, whatever my budget would be, it would be 100% worth it to spend less money on a bicycle and drop the $200 on the fit session.

He showed me a 2013 Jamis Xenith Comp with 105 for $1500, so last year's model of that:

JAMIS BICYCLES

Then the mechanic, a younger guy, told me that I didn't really need a carbon bike, and that if I wanted to save the $450 then they also had a 2013 Felt something for $1050 in aluminum with 105 shifters. He said that the main differences would be that aluminum wouldn't murder road buzz as effectively as carbon, and thus the ride would be overall less smooth, the power transfer would be better on carbon...but neither him nor Alan actually vomited up any numbers as far as speed gains.

So I don't know when I'll be "ready" or when I should really consider myself "ready" to sell the current road bike and buy a new bike. Also, considering we're talking about $450 in price difference for a bike that's going to last 10+ years assuming perfect maintenance on my part, I don't know if that 450 separating aluminum from carbon should mean that much to me, and if I should just pick up a carbon bike anyway considering how much I've been putting into the sport. Yes I still haven't lost an ideal amount of weight and no I still have yet to enter a race (trying to get time freed up for August 3rd), but I'd be buying here based not on those items, but on the assumption that this bike would last me at least the next 8-10 years. Thoughts on all this?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

My general attitude re: changes to bike fit is the same as it is for upgrades. I ask myself what the benefits/ goals are of making the change(s). I'd ask "Alan" the same thing in regards to the saddle adjustment. If it's to make the bike look "text book" prettier/ more aesthetically pleasing, I disagree. OTOH, if you voiced concern re: sliding forward and/ or feeling pressure on your palms/ hand, then yes, that *may* be a fix. May be.

Before subverting your fitters efforts, you might wanna go back and tell him about "Alan's" suggestion and see what he thinks. Certain brands/ models have contours that may make them appear to tilt up/ down, but really don't. 

Re: a $200 pro fit, I don't see it necessary for the same reasons stated re: upgrades and changes to fit. What are the benefits/ goals. Aside from the recent knee discomfort, if you're experiencing little discomfort on the bike you now own, I'd think a new bike (possibly with geo better suited to your anatomy) would suite you fine with a standard fitting - oftentimes included in a bike purchase.

Re: frame materials, assuming a good fit, IMO/E running the widest tire a frame will accommodate (generally 25c's on race frames) and experimenting with tire pressures will have the largest impact on maximizing comfort/ performance. Next is bike geo (longer wheelbases/ more trail) tend to smooth out the ride, and next comes frame materials. 

Only you can decide if the price difference between CF and alu is worth it. If you think you'll keep your next bike a long time and log tens of thousands of miles, I'd say, probably worth it, but that's JMO.

Lastly, one thing I do agree with "Alan" on is that the frame is the most important part of the bike. I'd say frameset, because frame and fork work as a unit, dictating handling, fit, and (to some extent) ride.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I experiment with different aspects of my fit somewhat frequently. I haven't paid for one in several years, though I was contemplating it recently. But my weight fluctuates, the time I'm able to devote to riding varies, the ways I use my bikes vary, maybe I replace my shoes... and all that matters. So if I think I might like something better a different way, I try it. I try to find a couple good landmarks and take a cell phone pic first, though. So if you think there might be something to gain leveling your saddle, give it a shot. Seat posts can be fiddly but aren't complicated. Just record how it was so you can restore it later. And, make small changes. I may be misremembering, but I think you had a penchant for radical changes or changing a bunch of things all at once. I would have no idea what was our wasn't working for me if I wasn't fairly conservative about mine.

Since I moved to a place with better access to trails, I can afford it now, and I wanted it, I bought an expensive mountain bike. Nothing shocking, at least by racing bike standards, but I took a deep breathe when I put down the deposit. In considering it beforehand, one of my big concerns was service life. I decided to plan for five years. I got a lot more out of my old road bike but mountain bikes are more of a moving target and subject to more wear. And I got a lot less out of some of my bikes, whether because I ran them into the ground or because something about my interests or my circumstances changed. Though bikes I've bought for riding for sport, post-college, I still have. The other thing is just that my use could drift a lot in five years. If I'm still racing XC or MTB endurance in 2018, the new bike will probably still be a really good fit for me. But the bike I bought to race 'cross in 2008 has seen fewer races from 2010 forward and has road tires now, so definitely on to its second phase, and the bike I bought to ride to school in 2011 has road pedals again, while I carpool to work well outside any practical (for me) commute range.

I'm happy with my riding practice and I'm confident that I'll be riding bikes in 2019. I even think I'll be racing XC and endurance in 2019, though I'm a lot less sure about track. But I think five years is a plenty long time horizon. If I don't feel I'll justify the purchase price of a bike in that time, it's too expensive. If I keep riding it or find it fits into a new role well after that time, it's a bonus. And if I can't at least get close to that time frame, well, I did stop buying $100 bikes and my track bike was the least expensive I thought wouldn't actively interfere with doing that kind of racing.

I don't assume any particular resale value either. My last commuter left me holding a pile of parts that wouldn't install on anything contemporary and even now, 11-speed is threatening to orphan everybody's existing wheels. Don't expect to get more back out of your bike because of a flashy rear wheel or seat post.

Point being, give some real thought to how far out you can say anything about your life. Since you're a resident, in your shoes, I'd probably just shrug beyond the length of my program. Get a bike for that time horizon. If you keep it longer - awesome. My old road and mountain bikes both ended up lasting me through some major life changes. But if you decide not to take it with you when you move next, for whatever reason, you won't have to kick yourself for sinking $xxxx into a bike that might have been better spent on wine, women and song.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

jfd986 said:


> *Bottom line: * The second-opinion bike shop guy (let's call him Alan) said that, if the bike rides well enough for me, then there's no need to buy a new bike in a hurry, and there is no reason to upgrade anything on the current bike unless something fails (eg. chain skip).


I like Alan. He seems to have a logical approach and is trying to help, not take your money.



> He said the chain was 0.75 or 75% or whatever that unit is, worn. He also said I shouldn't bother replacing the chain right now until it skips, and when I do I should replace the chain and the cassette. He said that, when that happens, there should be no need to replace the chain rings because they tend to wear much much slower than the chain and cassette.


I disagree with him on this part. *Change the chain now*. Chains are cheap, especially 8sp. If you do it now, there's a good chance your cassette won't need replacement. Why not try and salvage your cassette? As opposed to going a little bit longer on a questionable chain and definitely ruin your cassette.



> He said that, whatever my budget would be, it would be 100% worth it to spend less money on a bicycle and drop the $200 on the fit session.


Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how comfortable your current fit is. 



> but neither him nor Alan actually vomited up any numbers as far as speed gains.


Because they can't as there's really no difference between the two in speed gains. 
When it comes time for a new bike, test ride both alum and CF and see what you think. That's what really matters. Also remember that a cheap CF frame might not ride better from a higher end alum frame, both in the same price range.



> So I don't know when I'll be "ready" or when I should really consider myself "ready" to sell the current road bike and buy a new bike.


You'll know. Ride your bike, ride it hard. You'll know when that times comes that you're wanting more from the bike. Or you wear it out, crash it, etc.



> Also, considering we're talking about $450 in price difference for a bike that's going to last 10+ years assuming perfect maintenance on my part, I don't know if that 450 separating aluminum from carbon should mean that much to me, and if I should just pick up a carbon bike anyway considering how much I've been putting into the sport.


I ride both alum and CF. I enjoy riding them both. Don't sweat the decision too much.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

tlg said:


> I like Alan. He seems to have a logical approach and is trying to help, not take your money.
> 
> I disagree with him on this part. *Change the chain now*. Chains are cheap, especially 8sp. If you do it now, there's a good chance your cassette won't need replacement. Why not try and salvage your cassette? As opposed to going a little bit longer on a questionable chain and definitely ruin your cassette.
> 
> ...


I can see it both ways. The bike shop is being pragmatic. They know the chain has more life, so riding it a bit longer can be justified. Personally, the thought of being stuck with a broken chain on a long ride, doesn't sit well with me. I'd change it now. 

On a side note, chains in my view are not as good as they used to be. The push for lighter and lighter componentry means that today's chains need to be replaced every 4,000 miles(yes that's the reccomendation that every bike shop I speak to puts out), however on my 6500 group, I'm still on the original chain, and its close to pristine.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'd change the chain now too. It's a gamble, but it's a cheap gamble and could save a more expensive part. And granted, chain rings are pretty long wearing. But I do believe they wear faster when used with a stretched chain; no sense hastening that.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> I can see it both ways. The bike shop is being pragmatic. They know the chain has more life, so riding it a bit longer can be justified. Personally, the thought of being stuck with a broken chain on a long ride, doesn't sit well with me. I'd change it now.


I don't see that as being pragmatic when extending the life will result it damage to other components. He's at .75% wear, which is the cut off for replacement. 
You can extend the life of ANY chain... up to the point that it breaks. But that's not being pragmatic. It's cutting off the nose to spite the face.
The pragmatic way would be to look at it in cost/mile. For a $25 chain that's lasted 3k mi, that's $.008/mi. Extend it to 4k mi and its $.006/mi. A difference of $2 over 1k mi. Is it really worth ruining a cassette to save $2? 



> On a side note, chains in my view are not as good as they used to be. The push for lighter and lighter componentry means that today's chains need to be replaced every 4,000 miles(yes that's the reccomendation that every bike shop I speak to puts out), however on my 6500 group, I'm still on the original chain, and its close to pristine.


Well he does have an 8sp so his chain isn't uber light.
Chains should never ever ever be replaced based on mileage. They should be replaced based on wear. My chain has 5,000mi and 1/64" wear. I don't buy into the belief that ligher chains don't hold up.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

So I test rode a couple of bikes at the second shop. It looks like I prefer carbon to aluminum, much to my chagrin, and it looks like I'd prefer to have 105 on my bike, assuming I would buy one.

A jamis xenith with 105 retails for 2100 and my size (51 cm unfitted) is on sale for $1400.

I don't know whether thats a bad deal, good deal or a killer deal, but I rode my bike yesterday after over a week of not-riding it, and I realized something; even though every bike expert over the last two weeks I've met has been talking me the bike is junk, the bike should be sold, this needs replacing that needs replacing etc etc etc...I still enjoy riding it, a lot. It feels zippy enough to me, it fits me perfectly (the lbs would have to adjust any new bike to the fit specs on this one before it could actually be comfortable for me to ride a new bike) and it may not cost that much to repair.

I bought a new chain, but I haven't had the chance to take the bike out yet. Will let you guys know what happens. If the chain doesn't skip, I'm not buying a new bike unless someone on here tells me I'm not gonna land a deal like that for a long time. I qualify this because the guy at the bike store where I got a second opinion (Frank, Alans buddy) said that new jamis xeniths would be 11-speed, with sora, priced at 2100. The jamis I looked at with 105 group for 1400 was from 2012.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'm not really sure what your success condition for all this is. I think where the guys you've talked to are coming from is that once things on your bike start failing, you'll always be waiting for the next shoe to drop. You already had to buy a whole new rear wheel; under normal circumstances, good road wheels should be good for many thousands of miles, probably the life of the bike for the hub itself. So in a sense, I agree with them - it really doesn't sound like your bike is worth the repair of its next major mechanical problem, whatever that is.

You're looking at a really broad range of bikes. Which is fine - it sounds like you can afford 105 and carbon of you want them. But sooner or later the next shoe will drop. So maybe now, while there's no pressure associated with it, would be a good time to figure out what you want from your next bike.

Do you just want to minimize COO? Nothing wrong with that. Do you want to treat yourself? Nothing wrong with that either. Do you really want to race? What about another Century? I don't really see a conflict there, but asking myself if I could really spend five and a half hours in some awesome shoes that were an awesome deal but a size too small is what gave me the right framing to give up on them.

I've just been keeping on keepin' on with my old 'cross bike. It fits and it's pretty reliable as long as I'm not banging it around 'cross courses a couple times a month. But I mostly use it as a supplement - I'm spending a lot more time mountain biking lately.


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## jfd986 (Jul 17, 2011)

So the rear wheel got run over by a car, it didn't actually fail. Prior to it getting run over, I had zero problems with it. So far, I haven't had any real mechanical failures on this bike., aside from having to replace the chain which I don't think really qualifies as major since most people would have done it well before I did. Other than the chain issue, I'm keeping on just fine with this bike.

I want low COO, I want to race, and I want to do long rides. I'm not sure how long I'll be racing for since I figure I'm 28 in September, so got into this whole thing quite late, but I do want to race nonetheless, even if it's only for 5 or 7 years. I hear there are Masters races as well, but that's beyond the scope of the next financial decision. A carbon bike (which I have deemed through test riding to be most comfortable for me) and a 105 group seem like they would match that criteria. I don't consider buying carbon to be treating myself because $450 [the estimated difference between that bike shop's carbon and alloy 105 bikes] spread out over 8 or so years of ownership is, to me, a negligible amount of money per year. Ultegra or higher would be what I would consider treating myself. I want a bike where I can replace the chain, the cables, and the brake pads, perform the necessary maintenance and wheel truing, and then for several years, say "Yup, nothing wrong here." So I feel like I have a decent enough idea of what I want right now, the question I have for you and anyone else experienced at upgrading to a nicer bike from entry level is...when should I pull the trigger? You mentioned that you passed on an awesome deal for shoes, does that mean you think this would be an awesome deal for me? If so, I may just pull the trigger next week.

If I buy a new bike and I have to pick up and leave, I'm buying a bike box and I'm taking it with me. From now on, I don't care how far I travel for work and for life, I'm not leaving anything enjoyable behind, no matter what the cost. I say that only because I have very few such items.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I didn't pass on the awesome deal on shoes. It blew up in my face. I sold them to a teammate for a loss. I've worn holes in my old ones so I'll probably try again this season. I'll probably even still get something more expensive than my current pair. But I'll get something I can buy locally, and it'll be cheaper than the Sidi Drako.

You're late to be a professional cyclist. I doubt most of us even want that. A lot of them seem to be having a good time, but they all travel a ton and it's mostly the ones at the top we hear from, not the ones just hanging on.

28 is, if anything, early. Go racing. See who else shows up.

If none of the bikes you've ridden have $1400-$2100 of made you want them, don't bother. Sooner or later this bike is likely to back you into a decision. But maybe you'll get interested in something else first, or move somewhere the road cycling sucks. Or you'll discover 'cross, or mountain, or randonnee, or track...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

$1400 for a $2100 bike is ~33% off - by most any measure, a great deal. Granted it's 2 years old, but not a whole lot has changed technologically since then, so if you're on the fence, I'd say give this some consideration.

This assumes you've ridden the Jamis, it fits well and you like it. 

On the flip side, the world won't end if you don't ride CF and keep your current bike. It certainly seems like you like it A LOT, so a compelling reason not to sell it to offset the cost of a new bike. 

As is the case with so many purchases, it comes down to weighing the wants with the needs.


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