# Armstrong: Yes I feel like I won those races



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

and other insights here: Lance Armstrong: “Yes, I feel like I won races.” (Video) | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

(first video interview since Oprah)

discuss


Armstrong was also asked: 
Were you the best at the arms race or was it a level playing field? 
What have you been doing for the past year?
Have you been on the bike lately?
What do you want your legacy to be?
Do you think you've paid a high enough price?
Is there a part of you that is happier now that you can be so open?


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

yeah I feel like he is still 7x champ... it is what it is.... I'm sure a few years prior to 99 were not exactly clean either.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

He wants us to ask a bunch of dopers........how about we ask the guys who said no and were pushed out of the sport? 

Wonder what Greg LeMond thinks?


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Yeah; I get, and agree with his rationale. Good point about the Greg LeMond angle however, I didn't consider that; it's certainly unfair to honest victors of the Tour and apparently Greg was on of the VERY few-notice he's never been suspected or accused of doping.

Problem is, Lance abused, threatened, attacked, and destroyed the careers of those who dared to expose him. Between that and the false image he presented to the public/cancer survivors and his hiding behind that backstory, he deserves all the punishment he is receiving, and more.


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

Peter P. said:


> Yeah; I get, and agree with his rationale. Good point about the Greg LeMond angle however, I didn't consider that; it's certainly unfair to honest victors of the Tour and apparently Greg was on of the VERY few-notice he's never been suspected or accused of doping.
> 
> Problem is, Lance abused, threatened, attacked, and destroyed the careers of those who dared to expose him. Between that and the false image he presented to the public/cancer survivors and his hiding behind that backstory, he deserves all the punishment he is receiving, and more.


This is kind of how I feel. He did win those races. Most of the other riders were not riding clean. So he won the arms race AND was strong as hell. But he did a lot of damage defending those wins waging a blitzkrieg against a fair number of people.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

good for him.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

wonder what Lemond thinks about Indurain taking a few Tours from Lemond, especially 91 when Lemond should have won and was winning until he could no longer keep the pace of riders like Indurain who could barely hold Lemond's wheel a year earlier. Indurain gets to come back to the Tour as a hero and no one asks how he was dominant in the first half of the 90s when EPO was rampant. 




Doctor Falsetti said:


> He wants us to ask a bunch of dopers........how about we ask the guys who said no and were pushed out of the sport?
> 
> Wonder what Greg LeMond thinks?


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

He won the races. That's just a physical reality, but he is not a 7 time TDF champ, those titles were taken away.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> Indurain gets to come back to the Tour as a hero and no one asks how he was dominant in the first half of the 90s when EPO was rampant.


Exactly. I was at the final stage of the 2013 Tour and was looking at Indurain on stage. All I could think of when I looked at his face was how he felt standing up there, knowing he was a cheat too. Hell, if Pantani was alive, he would have been up on that stage too!


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

no doubt Indurain doped.. if you dislike Armstrong for it well you have to feel the same about Miq.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

But, but, but, Mig was a nice guy........


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

mpre53 said:


> But, but, but, Mig was a nice guy........


he sure is quiet on the subject... but I'll agree with you.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

stevesbike said:


> wonder what Lemond thinks about Indurain taking a few Tours from Lemond, especially 91 when Lemond should have won and was winning until he could no longer keep the pace of riders like Indurain who could barely hold Lemond's wheel a year earlier. Indurain gets to come back to the Tour as a hero and no one asks how he was dominant in the first half of the 90s when EPO was rampant.


Greg has said that Indurain doped. He talked about how he thinks Indurain must have used EPO and likely it cost him a couple Tours. Prior to Lance coming back from Cancer Greg talked about how Italian doctors, Like Ferrari and Conconi, had damaged the sport and made it more medical.

While Lance would like folks to deflect to Indurain there is nothing that can be done, Indurain never signed the WADA code


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Rosie Ruiz, winner of the Boston Marathon


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

spdntrxi said:


> no doubt Indurain doped.. if you dislike Armstrong for it well you have to feel the same about Miq.


People dislike Armstrong because he was an utter asshat who went out of his way to destroy people's lives.

Mig? Not so much.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Nobody knows whether Lance would have won those races clean if everybody else was clean. Maybe Lemond would have won, maybe not. He did have some anemia health issues didn't he? That could have very well prevented him from winning even if the peloton was clean. To me, he won, not fair and square, but he won against a bunch of cheaters doing the same thing he was doing.

I remember reading an article just after USADA released the evidence against Lance and she stated that even though he cheated, he was such a perfectionist about his training that that in itself could have been enough to make him a winning cyclist. But we will never know.



spdntrxi said:


> he sure is quiet on the subject... but I'll agree with you.


And Armstrong would have liked to too, but too many people were focused on getting the truth out about him.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Rosie Ruiz, winner of the Boston Marathon


And the difference is that Lance ACTUALLY rode the full course, where as Rose DIDN'T run the course. Big difference.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

love4himies said:


> And the difference is that Lance ACTUALLY rode the full course, where as Rose DIDN'T run the course. Big difference.


This guy with the chalkboard rode the whole course too.....he beat lance every Tour. A true champion.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> This guy with the chalkboard rode the whole course too.....he beat lance every Tour. A true champion.


And _possibly_ he could have beat Lance had he been on a bicycle doing the course, but I doubt it.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

love4himies said:


> And _possibly_ he could have beat Lance had he been on a bicycle doing the course, but I doubt it.


We'll never know.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Have to wonder what would have happened if riders like Darin Baker were not pushed form the sport because they refused to take EPO?



> lot was expected of Baker because he had been so promising the previous two years with the U.S. national amateur team. "I was strong," he said. "Most of the time I was just as strong as Lance Armstrong," his teammate, "maybe even stronger on the climbs.


Bassons had a higher Vo2 then Lance, but spent much of his career chasing wheels and getting spat on because he wouldn't dope


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

runabike said:


> People dislike Armstrong because he was an utter asshat who went out of his way to destroy people's lives.
> 
> Mig? Not so much.


agree, all the backlash about Lance is because he was/is an ass
which also explains the increased penalties


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> agree, all the backlash about Lance is because he was/is an ass
> *which also explains the increased penalties*


Ferrari, Del Moral, De Lucca, O'Bee, Santuccione were banned for life because they were an ass?


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## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

runabike said:


> People dislike Armstrong because he was an utter asshat who went out of his way to destroy people's lives.
> 
> Mig? Not so much.


I feel the same way about Indurain as I feel about Pete Sampras...a dominant athlete that was about as exciting to watch as paint dry.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Ferrari, Del Moral, De Lucca, O'Bee, Santuccione were banned for life because they were an ass?


Riis, doped as a racer. Doped as a DS. 
case pending.....

Do you mean DiLuca? How many actual busts did it take?
O'bee was 2 actual pops

Ferrari, Del Moral. Both involved with Lance

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/sports/cycling/a-double-standard-in-doping-punishments.html?_r=0

why not Fuentes?

funny about Santuccione. Had doping for 138 athletes and all we hear about are the 15 cyclists


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> Riis, doped as a racer. Doped as a DS.
> case pending.....
> 
> Do you mean DiLuca? How many actual busts did it take?
> ...


Fuentes was banned from practicing sports medicine last year

Was Ferrari and Del Moral were banned because some of Armstrong's ass rubbed off on them? 

"Actual pops"......Direct witness testimony is better given the high threshold for a positive. 

When all the folks from Festina went to prison was that because they were ass' too? Did the UCI pursue Ullrich for 6 years after he retired because he was an ass? 

The Lance as a victim stuff is fantasy, designed to give former fanboys an excuse for being fools for so long.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I agree. What about Eddy ?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

David Loving said:


> I agree. What about Eddy ?


and thus the hamster wheel turns.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

David Loving said:


> I agree. What about Eddy ?


When did Eddy sign the WADA code?


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

who gives a damn if the wada code is signed or not... you make it seem like it was "ok" as long as you didn't sign the damn thing.. To me know difference..... example Eddy = Mig = Lance... Hell they should all keep their titles.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

spdntrxi said:


> yeah I feel like he is still 7x *cheat.*.. it is what it is.... I'm sure a few years prior to 99 were not exactly clean either.


See if you are a cheat, you are still a cheat even if you are the fastest cheat. He won nothing. He cheated in every single one of those events. "Other people cheated", try telling your wife that, oh yeah Armstrong probably did. I really don't understand why people still think this dick won anything. How come Ben Johnson got banned for life for cheating twice (career over) and this "good ol boy" from Texas still gets people defending him after 7 events? Making excuses and trivaiizing what he did as ...it is what it is........, that is just messed up IMHO.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spdntrxi said:


> who gives a damn if the wada code is signed or not... you make it seem like it was "ok" as long as you didn't sign the damn thing.. To me know difference..... example Eddy = Mig = Lance... Hell they should all keep their titles.


I am not making it "OK" I am pointing out there is no mechanism in place to strip them of their victories. 

The primary reason WADA came about was due to the UCI's unwillingness to address the very serious issue of doping in the sport. The fact that there is no process that enables us to address much of what happened in the 90's only reiterates the need for an independent body like WADA to go after this nonsense. The transition will be challenging, some crooks will walk, some fans will be confused......but long term the change is a good thing


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Did that guy on the yellow motorcycle ever actually cross a finish line? 

Am I the only one who thinks Armstrong looks fat and tired in the interview? 



Armstrong was also asked: 
Were you the best at the arms race or was it a level playing field? 
What have you been doing for the past year?
Have you been on the bike lately?
What do you want your legacy to be?
Do you think you've paid a high enough price?
Is there a part of you that is happier now that you can be so open?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> When did Eddy sign the WADA code?


Did Riis?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Did Riis?


Yup, DS's and managers are licensed by the UCI.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> Armstrong was also asked:
> Were you the best at the arms race or was it a level playing field? *I won the most money, I was the best*
> What have you been doing for the past year?*Trying to salvage my nestegg *
> Have you been on the bike lately?*It helps pays the bills so yes*
> ...


It was after all never about the bike.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yup, DS's and managers are licensed by the UCI.


Pity he used doping to win, encouraged it on his team, and is still not banned from cycling.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Pity he used doping to win, encouraged it on his team, and is still not banned from cycling.


and not even a case at the moment under any antidoping agencies. oh wait. of course you knew that.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Did that guy on the yellow motorcycle ever actually cross a finish line?
> 
> I heard he won the 86, 89 and 90 Tours too. In fact, he's won all the recent Grand Tours, I don't know why the cyclists even try to compete??? Maybe they need to look at motors on their bikes too.
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks Armstrong looks fat and tired in the interview?


Yes I thought he was looking tired and a bit more weight that before. He did say he is not working out as much.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

He was pretty clearly the champion doper of a very messed up era. But it's amazing how many other dopers get a pass from people.

The fact that Armstrong treated people so badly really caused everything to unravel. If they had given Floyd a spot on Radioshack, then maybe we are never having this conversation.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

If cheating was punishable by prison time, everyone in the world would be in prison.
.
.
.







If the "smartest cheater" didn't win, who did??....The "clean" rider who finished in 27th place?????
.
.
.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If cheating was punishable by prison time, everyone in the world would be in prison.


Not LeMond or Betsy. Of course, you'd know that if you read all of the legal documents.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

DZfan14 said:


> He was pretty clearly the champion doper of a very messed up era. But it's amazing how many other dopers get a pass from people.
> 
> The fact that Armstrong treated people so badly really caused everything to unravel. If they had given Floyd a spot on Radioshack, then maybe we are never having this conversation.


Totally agree, a pissed off Landis really got the ball rolling.

Either way, winning 7 years in a row is pretty lucky considering crashes, flats at inopportune times, bad days, etc.

I consider Lance the winner of those races too however I don't consider Mark McGwire the homerun leader, though.


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## Adim_X (Mar 7, 2011)

I wouldn't consider McGuire either, cause it's Barry Bonds with an asterisk.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Adim_X said:


> I wouldn't consider McGuire either, cause it's Barry Bonds with an asterisk.


I think there's a subtle difference with home run record holders and cyclists. 

These grand tour winners were competing against their peers while the home run record holders went up against all time records. Bonds broke a record that was 40 years old. In my opinion that is more akin to breaking the hour record. It may not be too much of a difference but there's a difference in there somewhere.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

den bakker said:


> and not even a case at the moment under any antidoping agencies. oh wait. of course you knew that.


Danish Anti-Doping Looking At Riis And Saxo Team | Cyclingnews.com


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Adim_X said:


> I wouldn't consider McGuire either, cause it's Barry Bonds with an asterisk.


Oh well, they all look alike to me.


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## stretch512 (Apr 22, 2014)

Armstrong won over all the other dopers and that is just plain fact. As for pissing people off, so what!? Everybody has the right to say whatever the **** they want to, and Lance did a good job of dominating the weak. The whole witch hunt just pisses me off and has tarnished cycling not to mention given the general public ideas that Armstrong sat on the couch and ate chips while taking PED's and just got up and won 7 tours. Complete BS! Hamilton can tell the truth and he also told all about the training and how intense and calculating it was. The pro peloton has cleaned up but people are still getting popped, some get a pass and some that are big stars get slammed in the press.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

stretch512 said:


> The pro peloton has cleaned up but people are still getting popped, some get a pass and some that are big stars get slammed in the press.


Does anyone really believe that cycling has cleaned up? I'd like to think so, but teams with money can afford methods that are better than the current doping controls, or the officials are looking the other way again (again).


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

stretch512 said:


> Everybody has the right to say whatever the **** they want to, and Lance did a good job of dominating the weak.


You have the *right* to say what you want to, but it doesn't mean there won't be consequences. Take a look at the Clipper's ex-owner right now. People confuse having the right to say something (as in the government won't throw you in jail for opening your mouth) and confuse this with having no consequences for your actions. 

It's funny how people call this is a witch hunt when Armstrong's competitors are getting the same treatment. Jan Ullrich had the same thing happened to him. Instead he went to the court of arbitration and got to keep some of his victories. Same thing would have happened to Armstrong but he thought he could completely win and ended up losing it all. The only difference is Lance used his celebrity status to make it a big deal and wage a media war.


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## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

Delusional to think Lemond was all natural.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

41ants said:


> Delusional to think Lemond was all natural.


That kind of thinking is not allowed here.


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## stretch512 (Apr 22, 2014)

Most of these guys on here posting all these comments are the biggest hypocrites. They have probably tried drugs, drink beer and do other questionable things, but when it's someone else doing them they are so quick to point a finger. Take the beam out of your own eye, have you ever lied? It total BS to say Lance did not win those races, look back and ask your self if he was jumping on a train or taking a car? Everyone around was on the same gear he just did it better end of story!


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

spade2you said:


> That kind of thinking is not allowed here.


That's right. We try to operate in a reality based universe here. I'm sure there are plenty of places to engage in fantasy.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

stretch512 said:


> Most of these guys on here posting all these comments are the biggest hypocrites. They have probably tried drugs, drink beer and do other questionable things, but when it's someone else doing them they are so quick to point a finger. Take the beam out of your own eye, have you ever lied? It total BS to say Lance did not win those races, look back and ask your self if he was jumping on a train or taking a car? Everyone around was on the same gear he just did it better end of story!


Really? Everyone? 

Ignoring for the second the absurd idea that everyone reacts the same to doping do you really think it was a level playing field? 

What about the directors and rider show said and were pushed out the sport....were they doing the same thing? 

What other teams were doing transfusions in 2000?

after the Festina affair in 98 most teams were scared and brought few drugs into France. Lance hired his gardener to drive around on a Moto. If everyone was doing it then why did the retro testing of the samples show a small fraction of positives? Why were 1/2 of the positives belonged to 1 rider....Lance.

Hein Verbruggen money was managed by Och, the godfather to Lance's kids. Och worked at the Bank owed by Weisel.....did everyone have that access?

How many riders were given advanced notice of "Surprise" testing? 

How many riders were allowed to give back dated TUE's when they tested positive? How many were given guided tours of the lab?


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## stretch512 (Apr 22, 2014)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really? Everyone?
> 
> Ignoring for the second the absurd idea that everyone reacts the same to doping do you really think it was a level playing field?
> 
> ...


Whatever there were plenty of other moto men for top teams. EPO was a fact Lance stayed a head of the curve and strong armed those who got in his way. Yes he had the funds and the clout to push though a lot of the accusations. Testing as fat as surprise, its no surprise when one rider gets tested and the rest inform the whole team the tester is on the way. Hey rode better, toke better gear, was ahead of technology for doping at his time and out smarted most. and.. he was not the only person that had a Dr. coaching him but then again he is the devil so please let this thread rage on. In fact Lance was the only one that ever doped. Is that passive enough. What a joke, guys are still getting popped and all they can still focus on is lance. what about merckx for godsake, Im sure that guy only drank water and ate oatmeal right?


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

stretch512 said:


> Whatever there were plenty of other moto men for top teams. EPO was a fact Lance stayed a head of the curve and strong armed those who got in his way. Yes he had the funds and the clout to push though a lot of the accusations. Testing as fat as surprise, its no surprise when one rider gets tested and the rest inform the whole team the tester is on the way. Hey rode better, toke better gear, was ahead of technology for doping at his time and out smarted most. and.. he was not the only person that had a Dr. coaching him but then again he is the devil so please let this thread rage on. In fact Lance was the only one that ever doped. Is that passive enough. What a joke, guys are still getting popped and all they can still focus on is lance. what about merckx for godsake, Im sure that guy only drank water and ate oatmeal right?


Is this one of those puzzles where the winner is the one who identifies the most errors?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

stretch512 said:


> Whatever there were plenty of other moto men for top teams.


Really? Do you have a link to all the other teams using a motoman in 99? How about transfusions in 2000, what other teams were using them? 

If they were all using EPO in 99 why did so few of them test positive in the retro testing?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

asgelle said:


> Is this one of those puzzles where the winner is the one who identifies the most errors?


There is also the fun game of how long it takes for someone to write "What about Merckx, Lemond, Riis, etc"


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## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

spade2you said:


> That kind of thinking is not allowed here.


I'm just a bit skeptical to think for one minute that cycling on the pro level is that much cleaner today. Hell, even the amateur racers here in FL don't look natural (masters that look like ex bodybuilders). I'm not upset about it at all when I watch the euro crap on tv or live streaming stuff (usacrits) to know that they are juiced a bit. Heck, it doesn't even phase me that the some of the guys racing maters a/b look like they drink winstrol. I guess I've just have become numb to it and have accepted that people will do whatever it takes to pay their bills or post that podium pic on The Facebook first thing Monday morning. What's crazy is to think that any prof sports is clean(er).


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

stretch512 said:


> Most of these guys on here posting all these comments are the biggest hypocrites. They have probably tried drugs, drink beer and do other questionable things, but when it's someone else doing them they are so quick to point a finger. Take the beam out of your own eye, have you ever lied? It total BS to say Lance did not win those races, look back and ask your self if he was jumping on a train or taking a car? Everyone around was on the same gear he just did it better end of story!


Doing drugs or drinking or lying has nothing to do with the case at hand. Drinking for one is not illegal. This is not a question of 'morality', it's whether he obeyed the rules. Any sport is an arbitrary set of rules we agree too. In cycling, not taking performance enhancing drugs is one of those rules. There are other things that many would consider non-moral that are perfectly legal in races. For example I don't think tacking onto someone's wheel in a breakaway then sprinting by them at the line is a moral thing to do, but it's perfectly legal according to the rules of the sport. If someone here posting about how pro doping is bad then get caught doping in their respective race then that's hypocritical. Them having a beer after a race is not.

Maybe you should read up on some of the methods postal used. It goes beyond doping and into thinks like bribery and reporting competitors for being doped up. As other people pointed out most of the peloton was scared shitless to EPO it up after 98.



Doctor Falsetti said:


> There is also the fun game of how long it takes for someone to write "What about Merckx, Lemond, Riis, etc"


Riis we know about. I think he should be stripped as well.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

stretch512 said:


> Most of these guys on here posting all these comments are the biggest hypocrites. They have probably tried drugs, drink beer and do other questionable things, but when it's someone else doing them they are so quick to point a finger. Take the beam out of your own eye, have you ever lied? It total BS to say Lance did not win those races, look back and ask your self if he was jumping on a train or taking a car? Everyone around was on the same gear he just did it better end of story!


So cheating at poker is fine? Wanna try that in Vegas? After all we all get the same chance to cheat. Your post is wrong on so many levels but in asserting that a cheat actually "won" you are totally wrong IMHO. Drinking beer wasn't illegal last time I looked and for the guys that get busted doing joints or blow, try telling the judge or jury that everyone else was doing it. Good luck.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

kiwisimon said:


> So cheating at poker is fine? Wanna try that in Vegas? After all we all get the same chance to cheat. Your post is wrong on so many levels but in asserting that a cheat actually "won" you are totally wrong IMHO. Drinking beer wasn't illegal last time I looked and for the guys that get busted doing joints or blow, try telling the judge or jury that everyone else was doing it. Good luck.


Even if they are snorting things or smoking things unless they are in some drug based competition they aren't cheating. Cheating and breaking the law are not the same thing.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

deviousalex said:


> Even if they are snorting things or smoking things *unless they are in some drug based competition they aren't cheating. Cheating and breaking the law are not the same thing*.


Laws and rules are the same thing in essence, if you break the rules and are caught you pay the consequences. I am not really sure what your point was but no one suggested that sports rules were legislated laws as far as I can tell.


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## ProAc_Fan (Apr 30, 2014)

Just my .02. I'm not sure why they play this cat and mouse game with the doping. The athletes get 2 steps ahead, the testers catch up, then the athletes get ahead again. It's all such an exercise in futility. When Ben Johnson was busted at the LA Olympics in the 100m after smoking Carl Lewis' a$$ , Canada actually wasted money on an inquiry into just how this embarrassing scenario occurred. Johnson's coach said it all when he stated in the 100m you can take the drugs and be on a level playing field or run without the drugs and lineup 10m behind everyone else. 

I still think this is true. Once the athletes are adults who can make their own choices and live with the consequences I think they should be able to maximize performance in any way they see fit. Armstrong got plenty rich from the tour wins and the other riders ought to have been allowed to compete on the same level.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ProAc_Fan said:


> Johnson's coach said it all when he stated in the 100m you can take the drugs and be on a level playing field or run without the drugs and lineup 10m behind everyone else.


Good example

Francis was clear that all athletes do not respond the same to dope. He writes in his book that Ben responded extremely well to dope. Ben went from being a good, national class, sprinter to the fastest man in history.

The level playing field is nonsense


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> If cheating was punishable by prison time, everyone in the world would be in prison.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


If you cheat what precisely do you 'win'? Cash and the undying love of the bozo's who invest in the sport for a whole 15 minutes while their 'champ' is winning. Nobody won. The sport lost. Leave those titles blank so that future generations can read up about how the sport was run by, and contested by, a whole lot of liars, cheats and frauds. It is what it is...


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

ProAc_Fan said:


> Just my .02. I'm not sure why they play this cat and mouse game with the doping. The athletes get 2 steps ahead, the testers catch up, then the athletes get ahead again. It's all such an exercise in futility. When Ben Johnson was busted at the LA Olympics in the 100m after smoking Carl Lewis' a$$ , Canada actually wasted money on an inquiry into just how this embarrassing scenario occurred. Johnson's coach said it all when he stated in the 100m you can take the drugs and be on a level playing field or run without the drugs and lineup 10m behind everyone else.
> 
> I still think this is true. Once the athletes are adults who can make their own choices and live with the consequences I think they should be able to maximize performance in any way they see fit. Armstrong got plenty rich from the tour wins and the other riders ought to have been allowed to compete on the same level.


Let's not forget that Lewis used PED's too, as did Linford Christie, who went on to claim gold in Barcelona. It wasn't called 'the dirtiest race in history' for nothing. If the Olympics dropped dead tomorrow from a steroid-induced heart attack I wouldn't shed a single tear.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> What other teams were doing transfusions in 2000?


Kelme.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sir duke said:


> If you cheat what precisely do you 'win'? Cash and the undying love of the bozo's who invest in the sport for a whole 15 minutes while their 'champ' is winning. Nobody won. The sport lost. Leave those titles blank so that future generations can read up about how the sport was run by, and contested by, a whole lot of liars, cheats and frauds. It is what it is...


It's only cheating if you get caught. I was surprised to learn how much cheating went on in college. Then again, I might have known if I didn't have a drinking problem. Professionally, I've seen liars and cheats prosper, blacklisting people who spoke the truth. In a cut-throat environment, I still behave despite wishing I could bend the rules to my advantage. What stops me is Murphy's Law and knowing that I'd be caught.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Why were 1/2 of the positives belonged to 1 rider....Lance.


Armstrong was tested more than any other athlete, probably over 500 times.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

sir duke said:


> If you cheat what precisely do you 'win'? Cash and the undying love of the bozo's who invest in the sport for a whole 15 minutes while their 'champ' is winning. Nobody won. The sport lost. Leave those titles blank so that future generations can read up about how the sport was run by, and contested by, a whole lot of liars, cheats and frauds. It is what it is...


Yet it does send a message that those were the dirty years, before and after are OK.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Local Hero said:


> Armstrong was tested more than any other athlete, probably over 500 times.


Not even the most tested American

Athlete

Cyclist

Named Armstrong.

(And I heard the number of tests was actually closer to 7,000,000.)


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

stretch512 said:


> Armstrong won over all the other dopers and that is just plain fact. As for pissing people off, so what!? Everybody has the right to say whatever the **** they want to, and Lance did a good job of dominating the weak. The whole witch hunt just pisses me off and has tarnished cycling not to mention given the general public ideas that Armstrong sat on the couch and ate chips while taking PED's and just got up and won 7 tours. Complete BS! Hamilton can tell the truth and he also told all about the training and how intense and calculating it was. The pro peloton has cleaned up but people are still getting popped, some get a pass and some that are big stars get slammed in the press.


Is that you, Mr Anti-USADA???


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Yet it does send a message that those were the dirty years, before and after are OK.


Nonsense because....just because.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> It's only cheating if you get caught. I was surprised to learn how much cheating went on in college. Then again, I might have known if I didn't have a drinking problem. Professionally, I've seen liars and cheats prosper, blacklisting people who spoke the truth. In a cut-throat environment, I still behave despite wishing I could bend the rules to my advantage. What stops me is Murphy's Law and knowing that I'd be caught.


Why am I reminded of trees falling in faraway forests? A bit like saying murder is only murder if somebody dies (and you get caught). Of course it's about not getting caught, and that's where lying comes in handy. If you want to cheat, you have to lie. Half a lifetime of lying is why Lance is suffering a modicum of approbrium right now. Dude looks like he's had a few sleepless nights. Well, he sure has earned them. As for saying 'ask the peloton who won those Tours'? Kind of like asking Bernie Madoff to be your character witness. He's looking more like a loser with each subsequent i/v.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sir duke said:


> Why am I reminded of trees falling in faraway forests? A bit like saying murder is only murder if somebody dies (and you get caught). Of course it's about not getting caught, and that's where lying comes in handy. If you want to cheat, you have to lie. Half a lifetime of lying is why Lance is suffering a modicum of approbrium right now. Dude looks like he's had a few sleepless nights. Well, he sure has earned them. As for saying 'ask the peloton who won those Tours'? Kind of like asking Bernie Madoff to be your character witness. He's looking more like a loser with each subsequent i/v.


You'd be surprised who will cheat when given the opportunity. Besides, plenty of guys denied doping or for about as long. O'Grady comes to mind. Would he have confessed had he not been retested? Of course (not).


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> You'd be surprised who will cheat when given the opportunity. Besides, plenty of guys denied doping or for about as long. O'Grady comes to mind. Would he have confessed had he not been retested? Of course (not).


No I wouldn't be surprised. You don't get to 51 and suddenly learn the world is not the bowl of honeyed delights you were led to believe in nursery school. O'Grady is just more of the same (see my remarks about lying). But O'Grady didn't sue anybody's ass, podium 7 times, send his gardener acround Europe with a bagful of syringes, swizz insurance companies, write a handful of autobiogs and boff rockstars on the basis of his deception. See where this is going?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sir duke said:


> No I wouldn't be surprised. You don't get to 51 and suddenly learn the world is not the bowl of honeyed delights you were led to believe in nursery school. O'Grady is just more of the same (see my remarks about lying). But O'Grady didn't sue anybody's ass, podium 7 times, send his gardener acround Europe with a bagful of syringes, swizz insurance companies, write a handful of autobiogs and boff rockstars on the basis of his deception. See where this is going?


O'Grady had plenty of wins that could PROBABLY be attributed to doping, even though they all stopped doping after Festina (another probable lie). Nobody really went after O'Grady, thus he had no need to fight with anyone. 

Wasn't Cippo's first reaction to doping allegations to sue them?


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> O'Grady had plenty of wins that could PROBABLY be attributed to doping, even though they all stopped doping after Festina (another probable lie). Nobody really went after O'Grady, thus he had no need to fight with anyone.
> 
> Wasn't Cippo's first reaction to doping allegations to sue them?


Why would anyone go after O'Grady? Or Cippo? The point about lying is 'a little and not too often', a lesson Lance never learned.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sir duke said:


> Why would anyone go after O'Grady? Or Cippo? The point about lying is 'a little and not too often', a lesson Lance never learned.


Both won races and denied doping.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Both won races and denied doping.


I share 97% of my DNA with chimpanzees, that doesn't mean I scratch my arse in public. Stop being silly.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sir duke said:


> I share 97% of my DNA with chimpanzees, that doesn't mean I scratch my arse in public. Stop being silly.


How is that silly? They had denied doping and had some solid wins. O'Grady only fessed up after the '98 TdF retest. Cippo threatens to sue. 

I'm always amazed how other dopers get brushed off as minimal offenses. Keeping in mind that La Lanterne Rouge has tested positive.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

spade2you said:


> How is that silly? They had denied doping and had some solid wins. O'Grady only fessed up after the '98 TdF retest. Cippo threatens to sue.
> 
> I'm always amazed how other dopers get brushed off as minimal offenses. Keeping in mind that La Lanterne Rouge has tested positive.


It appears to be your lot in life to never come within kissing distance of a point without missing it. Proportionality, ever heard of it?



> Both won races and denied doping.


Have you ever won a race? Have you ever denied doping? Why are we not discussing _you_?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I've won races and denied doping! Maybe spade has never won a race?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

The kool aid just never seems to lose its savor.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Fireform said:


> I've won races and denied doping! Maybe spade has never won a race?


LOL, so on top of being called a wannabe racer, now I have no wins. I love how these aren't considered personal attacks, unless I say something like that.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> LOL, so on top of being called a wannabe racer, now I have no wins. I love how these aren't considered personal attacks, unless I say something like that.


it's not cheating if you're not caught


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> it's not cheating if you're not caught


I've already been called a doper several times.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> I've already been called a doper several times.


swoosh


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> swoosh


Yes, I lied about an inflamed tendon in my hand to take prednisone and may get a Cortisone shot in my hand if it keeps getting worse. Ya got me. I'm totally using it to gain an advantage cycling.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Yes, I lied about an inflamed tendon in my hand to take prednisone and may get a Cortisone shot in my hand if it keeps getting worse. Ya got me. I'm totally using it to gain an advantage cycling.


swoosh


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> swoosh


So, you're really celebrating that I had bad tendinitis and had to take prednisone? I was just happy to have avoided trigger finger release surgery, which I will probably have to do eventually.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> So, you're really celebrating that I had bad tendinitis and had to take prednisone? I was just happy to have avoided trigger finger release surgery, which I will probably have to do eventually.


where have I said that? 
you completely missed the point and went off a tangent. not my problem.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> where have I said that?
> you completely missed the point and went off a tangent. not my problem.


Really, what point was there to be made? I am a wannabe racer? Doper? Have never won a race? Armstrong lover? Enlighten me.

Hell, I don't really take anyone here seriously, but I'm amazed what's not a personal attack.


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