# How does cycling deal with "sandbaggers"



## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

Those guys that win their class every weekend and would have finished in the middle of the next higher category?


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## DMH1721 (Aug 30, 2010)

Forced upgrade. Many regional officals will do this. Happened to me . . . Though I wasn't necessarily sandbaggin


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Real sandbaggers hang back in the pack until big events come along, thus avoiding upgrade and increasing their chances of winning. Being the strongest rider doesn't make you a sandbagger. There can be a variety of reasons why someone isn't upgraded.

I got accused of being a sandbagger this year, after some very good (for my class) TT results. As the year progressed, I made some serious improvements, to the point where I was winning 10 mile TTs by a full minute. My weaknesses didn't really show up until we started to go uphill, when I would drift right off the back and lose a bunch of time. Everyone has their strong and weak points. I was justly upgraded at the end of the season, even though I still can't climb or sprint.

It will be a long, long time before I'm accused of sandbagging again.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

151 said:


> How does cycling deal with "sandbaggers" Reply to Thread


No (or lame) prizes for lower cats.

The thing is, there will always be a "sandbagger", because someone has to win the race, right?


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

I will admit, that I am could likely be called a sandbagger this year. Getting creamed by a car last year in April and real world obligations set back my racing plan quite a bit. I only raced about 4 times as a cat IV last year and got some top 10's but no upgrade points. 

This season, I am competative with the 3's and picked up an easy win in the 4 race this past weekend. I am planning to get my points and move up after the early-mid summer big races. 

IMO, having more cat 2 races or 2/3 fields seperate from the P/1/2 field, could alleviate some of the bottle neck that occurs at the 3's, and then into the 4's. Racing with the P/1/2 takes a commitment to racing and training that a lot of people don't or can't keep up. Some of the guys I have talked to obiviously want to place well and be competitive in their cat, and a constant up flow and incentives could help that. Getting to the 3's and racing against a bunch of guys who are avoiding the 2's is similar to those 2's not wanting to race the P's.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

pretender said:


> No (or lame) prizes for lower cats.
> 
> The thing is, there will always be a "sandbagger", because someone has to win the race, right?


Just because someone wins a race, doesn't make them a sandbagger. I've heard people use this excuse because they lost the race. "Oh, I didn't win because there were a bunch of sandbaggers in my category." This generally comes from guys in Cat 5. There are people that get into racing and are fast enough for the upper categories. They generally work their way up in Categories as they win races in the lower Categories.

A friend of my raced one race two years ago. He trained in the off season and started in Cat 5. He proceeded to move up throughout the year and was a Cat 2 by the end of the season. He wasn't a sandbagger, just talented and working his way up. He actually scored enough points in a few Cat 4 races to be in the top 5 in the state points race. Guess what, he did it in Cat 3 too.


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## rudedog55 (Aug 10, 2009)

jspharmd said:


> Just because someone wins a race, doesn't make them a sandbagger. I've heard people use this excuse because they lost the race. "Oh, I didn't win because there were a bunch of sandbaggers in my category." This generally comes from guys in Cat 5. There are people that get into racing and are fast enough for the upper categories. They generally work their way up in Categories as they win races in the lower Categories.
> 
> A friend of my raced one race two years ago. He trained in the off season and started in Cat 5. He proceeded to move up throughout the year and was a Cat 2 by the end of the season. He wasn't a sandbagger, just talented and working his way up. He actually scored enough points in a few Cat 4 races to be in the top 5 in the state points race. Guess what, he did it in Cat 3 too.


sounds like a friend of mine from up in Boston, the funny thing about that is he did not even win the Cat 5 title that we did in the spring, he finished second by one point. Some guys work really hard, and race really smart, the honest ones like that don't stay as 5's or 4's very long.

and jeesh, if someone called me a sandbagger this year i would be glad, it means all the work i have been doing since last year has paid off.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*no problem here*



rudedog55 said:


> and jeesh, if someone called me a sandbagger this year i would be glad, it means all the work i have been doing since last year has paid off.


Never been accused of sandbagging myself. If I worked my butt off for years and started winning a few races, I think I would like to remain there for a while and enjoy it, though.


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## Eschelon (Jan 29, 2004)

*Tri-geeks*

Go to any Cat 5 TT race...these tri-geek losers finish the strongest/win at these races and like to pat themselves on their backs for a "job well done." F-ing pathetic. 

These tri-geeks don't race enough or at all at road racing...so they do these Cat 5 TT races and rob the true Cat 5 roadies of their glory.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Eschelon said:


> Go to any Cat 5 TT race...these tri-geek losers finish the strongest/win at these races and like to pat themselves on their backs for a "job well done." F-ing pathetic.
> 
> These tri-geeks don't race enough or at all at road racing...so they do these Cat 5 TT races and rob the true Cat 5 roadies of their glory.


Most of them don't race enough mass starts to upgrade, even if they wanted to. Given that they excel in TT type efforts and that those don't count towards the upgrade, it really shouldn't surprise or offend anyone. 

I've taken my lumps from tri guys, but you can't fault them for being in better shape. They're not really breaking any rules.


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## Eschelon (Jan 29, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Most of them don't race enough mass starts to upgrade, even if they wanted to. Given that they excel in TT type efforts and that those don't count towards the upgrade, it really shouldn't surprise or offend anyone.
> 
> I've taken my lumps from tri guys, but you can't fault them for being in better shape. They're not really breaking any rules.


You are right they are not breaking any rules. But that does not negate the issue that they are competitive athletes racing amongst true beginners/novices...AND THEY KNOW IT. I am not referring to new tri-athletes just starting out. I am referring to tri-athletes who have been racing/training for many months/years. I've seen my own teammates who only race tri's do this repeatedly...and they are always top 5 at cat 5 TT's. My teammates are not the exception...they are very typical of what comprises the top finishers at a cat 5 TT event.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

Eschelon said:


> .... Cat 5 roadies of their glory.


That's an oxymoron.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Eschelon said:


> You are right they are not breaking any rules. But that does not negate the issue that they are competitive athletes racing amongst true beginners/novices...AND THEY KNOW IT. I am not referring to new tri-athletes just starting out. I am referring to tri-athletes who have been racing/training for many months/years. I've seen my own teammates who only race tri's do this repeatedly...and they are always top 5 at cat 5 TT's. My teammates are not the exception...they are very typical of what comprises the top finishers at a cat 5 TT event.


I don't really see the problem. The people who just race TTs can't upgrade, so there's nothing they can do about it, and it doesn't seem like it should matter to people just passing through the 5s (they may as well see that there are strong TTers out there, and their cat 5 TTs don't "count" for anything). I think the category system works fine beyond the 5s, too---someone can only win so many races a year before they get a forced upgrade (although I recognize it may feel more important to a lower category racer in a district with a thin calendar). In NorCal/Nevada, I've just never heard about it being a real problem; virtually every racer I know wants to race at the highest level they can reach.


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## 2silent (Dec 26, 2009)

Eschelon said:


> You are right they are not breaking any rules. But that does not negate the issue that they are competitive athletes racing amongst true beginners/novices...AND THEY KNOW IT. I am not referring to new tri-athletes just starting out. I am referring to tri-athletes who have been racing/training for many months/years. I've seen my own teammates who only race tri's do this repeatedly...and they are always top 5 at cat 5 TT's. My teammates are not the exception...they are very typical of what comprises the top finishers at a cat 5 TT event.




But it isn't their fault!

I'd sure as hell like to get out of cat 5, but as a mountain biker (not a lame tri guy thankfully) it will take me at least 2 years to get 10 "mass starts". I don't want to be taking anyones glory- in fact it's sort of embarassing to be way ahead of the field.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Eschelon said:


> You are right they are not breaking any rules. But that does not negate the issue that they are competitive athletes racing amongst true beginners/novices...AND THEY KNOW IT. I am not referring to new tri-athletes just starting out. I am referring to tri-athletes who have been racing/training for many months/years. I've seen my own teammates who only race tri's do this repeatedly...and they are always top 5 at cat 5 TT's. My teammates are not the exception...they are very typical of what comprises the top finishers at a cat 5 TT event.


They're not breaking any rules. Rather than crying about it, I'd just assume train a little harder. They're good at TT efforts. You can't fault them for that. Heck, if you simply have a TT bike, there's a good chance you'll be on the podium, anyway.


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

I kind of think the concept of categories, we have "classes" in moto racing, is silly. When you compete in a race are you not really competing against every other bike out there?

The only position that matters is your position in the overall race.

Cats and classes just make people feel better about where they finish in relation to people that are as great or as sucky as they are.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

151 said:


> I kind of think the concept of categories, we have "classes" in moto racing, is silly. When you compete in a race are you not really competing against every other bike out there?
> 
> The only position that matters is your position in the overall race.
> 
> Cats and classes just make people feel better about where they finish in relation to people that are as great or as sucky as they are.


Nope you compete against the people in your category only.


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> Nope you compete against the people in your category only.



You might. But I like to see where I finish out of all the competitors. I do not really care how I finish in my "class".

The categories are only there to make people feel better about themselves.

If you have 1000 racers and you beat 499 of them you finished 500th.


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

What in the holy hell are you talking about? Are you actually suggesting events with 1000 racers? Lo


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

tommyrhodes said:


> What in the holy hell are you talking about? Are you actually suggesting events with 1000 racers? Lo



To be honest I havent the foggiest idea how many racers show up for cycling events.

I used 1000 because I am not that good at math.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

It would seem that a better training plan or upgrading would alleviate your problems.


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## 2silent (Dec 26, 2009)

But the lengths and start times are different...


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Separation*



151 said:


> You might. But I like to see where I finish out of all the competitors. I do not really care how I finish in my "class".


Depending on the race details, differnt classes race at different times and for different distances. You may have combined races (4/5 or 2/3 or Pro/1/2) if the fields are smaller or the course allows, but often you have different races for the categories and the age groups within the categories. You are not racing against anyone but those in your specific race and you can't compare yourself against them. 

In a TT oftentimes everyone rides the same distance, and in that case you can compare.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

151 said:


> You might. But I like to see where I finish out of all the competitors. I do not really care how I finish in my "class".
> 
> The categories are only there to make people feel better about themselves.
> 
> If you have 1000 racers and you beat 499 of them you finished 500th.


No offense, but if you try racing, it will becomes obvious that what you've said makes no sense.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> In a TT oftentimes everyone rides the same distance, and in that case you can compare.


Even then, depending on start times, wind and weather conditions tend to be less favorable as the day goes on when wind and heat can often both pick up.


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## 2silent (Dec 26, 2009)

spade2you said:


> Even then, depending on start times, wind and weather conditions tend to be less favorable as the day goes on when wind and heat can often both pick up.



for that matter- starting with the slow people can make it harder to push yourself. Flying by people barely moving isn't quite as motivating as chasing your number 1 competitor (or being chased down by them...)


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

2silent said:


> for that matter- starting with the slow people can make it harder to push yourself. Flying by people barely moving isn't quite as motivating as chasing your number 1 competitor (or being chased down by them...)


True that. There's also nothing like being even closer to the P-1-2s and having even closer than when you were in the 5s.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

151 said:


> You might. But I like to see where I finish out of all the competitors. I do not really care how I finish in my "class".
> 
> The categories are only there to make people feel better about themselves.
> 
> If you have 1000 racers and you beat 499 of them you finished 500th.


Sorry you completely off base here. completely and totally.


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## dot (Mar 4, 2004)

151 said:


> Those guys that win their class every weekend and would have finished in the middle of the next higher category?


Age-only categories do wonders.


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> Sorry you completely off base here. completely and totally.



Okay thanks, I completely understand your point now.

In the races I compete in 100-300 riders ride the same course and take off in one minute intervals.

The race is over when the first bike comes through after racing for 2 hrs.

When I get back hame and check the internet for results I rarely look at how I finished in the 30+ A class. I just do not care.

I look at how I finished in relation to every single person that showed up to race that day. We all rode the same course, some guys went faster than me some went slower. I beat the ones that went slower.

Not sure how you can argue with that.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

151 said:


> Okay thanks, I completely understand your point now.
> 
> In the races I compete in 100-300 riders ride the same course and take off in one minute intervals.
> 
> ...


If you weren't in their race, your time vs. their time isn't relevant. Different packs, different tactics.


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

Oh oh. I guess my experience isn't relative to cycling, we do not race in packs. It is almost 100% individual.

I can see what you guys were saying now.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

151 said:


> Oh oh. I guess my experience isn't relative to cycling, we do not race in packs. It is almost 100% individual.


In road racing?


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

spade2you said:


> In road racing?


Moto cross, I think. We've had some confused quests for parallels in the past.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Undecided said:


> Moto cross, I think. We've had some confused quests for parallels in the past.


So, where are the sandbaggers?


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## bruce_wayne (Apr 30, 2010)

...we're laying low, like we always do...


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