# A steel bike on a gravel road



## Creakyknees

is the cover photo of the August issue of Bicycling magazine.

Wherein they test "fast and fun steel bikes" (which I was unaware you could get both in the same bike). 

And a very interesting article about the science of suffering.


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## asciibaron

you should have been alive in the 70's. the suffering was the stuff of legend. steel EVERYTHING.

*wink*


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## Christine

I have ridden a steel mtb down a long, steep, gravelly truck road(?), back in the day. That was terrifying.


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## MB1

The mind boggles.

Poasting in Teh Lounge and reading Bicycling Bird Cage Liner.

Is that allowed?!?


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## weltyed

Creakyknees said:


> Wherein they test "fast and fun steel bikes" (which I was unaware you could get both in the same bike).


fast, fun, and steel: choose two.


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## FlynG

whippersnappers!


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## bikenerd

Y'all must buy your steel bikes at Walmart. Ever heard of Richard Sachs? Paul Sadoff? Mike Zancanato?


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## SystemShock

MB1 said:


> The mind boggles.
> 
> Poasting in Teh Lounge and reading Bicycling Bird Cage Liner.
> 
> Is that allowed?!?


I used to use _Bicycling_ magazine as bird cage liner, but then I started to feel like I was insulting the birds. 
.


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## Jim311

I remember when everybody hated steel, and aluminum was the next big thing. Now everyone hates aluminum, and carbon is in. I guess there are some fringers riding ti but I never recall it being a huge craze that went mainstream. I wonder what will we be onto once carbon jumps the shark?


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## Jim311

Actually now that I think about it, carbon may have already reached it's critical mass.


"It's got no SOUL man."


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## skepticman

Or you can have all three.

Gallery | Firefly Bicycles


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## nonsleepingjon

Jim311 said:


> I remember when everybody hated steel, and aluminum was the next big thing. Now everyone hates aluminum, and carbon is in. I guess there are some fringers riding ti but I never recall it being a huge craze that went mainstream. I wonder what will we be onto once carbon jumps the shark?


I suspect the same thing happened when steel started to take over from wooden frames, and when pedals and gears were introduced to the "walking machine".

Bamboo should be the next craze. It's so _renewable_, man! Or maybe carbon nanotubes. Or bamboo genetically modified to produce carbon nanotubes. It's so renewable, but it's patented and banned in Europe and I'm afraid it will mutate my DNA!


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## Steve98501

My steel bikes are only fast or fun, but not both? I didn't get that memo. Actually I think I'm reaching the not so fast stage of my life, so no worries.


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## weltyed

holy cow. people thought i was serious. three steel bikes, each more fun and fast than the last.


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## Creakyknees

nonsleepingjon said:


> ...bamboo genetically modified to produce carbon nanotubes..!


PERFECT!

get down to the patent office STAT!


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## OldEndicottHiway

weltyed said:


> *holy cow. people thought i was serious. three steel bikes, each more fun and fast than the last*.



Oh thank dog. 

I had my jaw unhinged at your earlier post. I was was about to ask what alien ship abducted my Welty and why did ET poke a stick in his brain.

And btw, Ox Plat ftw. My all 'rounder/gravel grinder is... better than fill in the blank ____.


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## CheapTrek

*I don't know about that.*



weltyed said:


> fast, fun, and steel: choose two.


One day the guy who got me riding showed up for our Sunday club ride on his classic Masi. I thought he just bought it for show and was surprised to see him riding it. 

Shifters on the down tube, toe clips, original everything, and he made a point of tearing our legs off. 

I assure you he was fast, riding steel, and having much more fun than the rest of us were.


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## OldEndicottHiway

Christine said:


> I have ridden a steel mtb down a long, steep, gravelly truck road(?), back in the day. That was terrifying.


Really?

My old 80's Fisher was full rigid steel. Took me all over nasty Colorado roads and single track with nary a care. Loved it. Super stable.

Today I nearly picked up an early 90's Fisher hard tail (alum) with full Deore XT and other goodies (old leather, riveted saddle of unknown origin) I spotted while driving by the Pawn shop today. Asking $400.

Unfortunately it looked like whomever owned it...rode it like a teenage boy trying to be a big shot. 

I talked the pawn guy down to <$290 but my senses told me... a.) it was not _steel_ and b.) I'd spend that much and more regenerating it, assuming the frame was not cracked.


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## OldEndicottHiway

Jim311 said:


> Actually now that I think about it, carbon may have already reached it's critical mass.
> 
> 
> "*It's got no SOUL man."[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Not so, imho.
> 
> Depends on _many_ factors, like any bike.
> 
> Done right, it's a joy to ride.


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## atpjunkie

went on a ride w/ the cyclists of the neighborhood
all of them on Trek and Specialized CF
They looked at my lugs and said "HOW OLD IS THAT?"
I said '2005'
then I introduced them to 'it's not about the bike'


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## CheapTrek

nonsleepingjon said:


> I suspect the same thing happened when steel started to take over from wooden frames, and when pedals and gears were introduced to the "walking machine".
> 
> Bamboo should be the next craze. It's so _renewable_, man! Or maybe carbon nanotubes. Or bamboo genetically modified to produce carbon nanotubes. It's so renewable, but it's patented and banned in Europe and I'm afraid it will mutate my DNA!


Calfee seems to agree with at least part of that

http://images.google.com/search?num...tT7CTD5Op0AGM4uG_DQ#biv=i|1;d|DG_RrF19iY4IMM:


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## OldEndicottHiway

atpjunkie said:


> went on a ride w/ the cyclists of the neighborhood
> all of them on Trek and Specialized CF
> *They looked at my lugs and said "HOW OLD IS THAT?"
> I said '2005'**then I introduced them to 'it's not about the bike'*



It only counts if you wore cut-off jeans shorts and PE socks.


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## OldEndicottHiway

skepticman said:


> Or you can have all three.
> 
> Gallery | Firefly Bicycles




Nom nom. Nom nom nom.


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## Hollywood

atpjunkie said:


> then I introduced them to 'it's not about the bike'


Yuss!!!


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## lemonlime

atpjunkie said:


> went on a ride w/ the cyclists of the neighborhood
> all of them on Trek and Specialized CF
> They looked at my lugs and said "HOW OLD IS THAT?"
> I said '2005'
> *then I introduced them to 'it's not about the bike'*


Was this on a downhill?


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## Gregory Taylor

Jim311 said:


> I remember when everybody hated steel, and aluminum was the next big thing. Now everyone hates aluminum, and carbon is in. I guess there are some fringers riding ti but I never recall it being a huge craze that went mainstream. I wonder what will we be onto once carbon jumps the shark?


Titanium had its time as the flavor of the month. It was in right after all those Scandium-Aluminum alloy frames started cracking and before Lance started winning on the first gen Trek OCLV framesets. Remember Airborne? Litespeed? 

Me, I still like my titanium bike. It rides like my steel bike. And I love my steel bike....


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## MikeBiker

Next month they'll test gravel-framed bikes on steel roads.


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## SystemShock

atpjunkie said:


> went on a ride w/ the cyclists of the neighborhood
> all of them on Trek and Specialized CF
> They looked at my lugs and said "HOW OLD IS THAT?"
> I said '2005'
> 
> *then I introduced them to 'it's not about the bike'*


Poast of the Day™. :thumbsup:
.


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## CalgaryDave

skepticman said:


> Or you can have all three.
> 
> Gallery | Firefly Bicycles


Back in 5, maybe x2 just because it has Campy.


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## CalgaryDave

I had a steel Cervelo Prodigy, before Cervelo was cool then not cool if that's the perception now. I called it the Nickleback bike because it had clearcoated nickle-plated stays as the one in this photo does. I miss it, should never have sold it.


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## rockstar2083

crap - what do I do with my GT Vantara now?


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## terry b

Road bikes should never be ridden on gravel. They're called "road bikes" for a reason and that's because roads are made out of asphalt.

Bicycling should be telling people to buy MTBs if they want to ride on anything but asphalt. Or maybe concrete. If it's in good shape.


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## Creakyknees

terry b said:


> Road bikes should never be ridden on gravel. They're called "road bikes" for a reason and that's because roads are made out of asphalt.
> 
> Bicycling should be telling people to buy MTBs if they want to ride on anything but asphalt. Or maybe concrete. If it's in good shape.


This. And. Track bikes are to be ridden on a ****ing TRACK.


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## OldEndicottHiway

terry b said:


> *Bicycling should be telling people to buy MTBs if they want to ride on anything but asphalt.*



Whaaaaat???   

Vas ist das??? 

Tu sais ce que tu m'a dit? 

The whole point of cx bikes for folks not actually cx racing/riding, is to be able to to jump on a dirt/gravel road and trails right from the road. I can ride mine on the road and enjoy plenty of "road feel" but if I decide to take off on a side trail...I'm good too. 

Surely you get this.


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## CalgaryDave

One of my favourite rides is an out-and-back of 100km in rural WA with next to zero traffic. It has a 5km gravel section and I have no concern taking my carbon Bianchi on it, kinda fun actually with the riding on marbles feeling through a few of the curves. Pavement pu$$ies.


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## OldEndicottHiway

Creakyknees said:


> This. And. Track bikes are to be ridden on a ****ing TRACK.


I bet you hate it when the gravy runs into your peas.


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## Creakyknees

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I bet you hate it when the gravy runs into your peas.


To the contrary. I am a messy smush it together kinda guy.


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## terry b

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Whaaaaat???
> 
> Vas ist das???
> 
> Tu sais ce que tu m'a dit?
> 
> The whole point of cx bikes for folks not actually cx racing/riding, is to be able to to jump on a dirt/gravel road and trails right from the road. I can ride mine on the road and enjoy plenty of "road feel" but if I decide to take off on a side trail...I'm good too.
> 
> Surely you get this.


The LBS ripped you off, they sold you a cross bike.


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## 10ae1203

terry b said:


> Road bikes should never be ridden on gravel. They're called "road bikes" for a reason and that's because roads are made out of asphalt.
> 
> Bicycling should be telling people to buy MTBs if they want to ride on anything but asphalt. Or maybe concrete. If it's in good shape.


I thought they were rode bikes because we rode them around.

See my avatar thingy.


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## OldEndicottHiway

terry b said:


> The LBS ripped you off, they sold you a cross bike.


Oh go blow it out your blowhole you smarty alecky blow hard blowity blow, person. 


Why I oughtta...


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## teoteoteo

Love dirt road and gravel rides. I had a 7k carbon wonder bike this year, ended up riding the swiss cross steel bike everywhere and wonder bike sat a lot. They are coming out with a new steel road version that I have on order along with a few others. The Road Logic will come in August, the rest in the next week or 2....is it bad I have 5 bikes in the works? 



http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ritchey/new-ritchey-road-logic-274352.html

2013 Madone 7 Series Frameset - Trek Bicycle

2012 Civilian Vive Le Roi - Competitive Cyclist

2012 Civilian Luddite - Competitive Cyclist

2012 Civilian Ramble - Competitive Cyclist


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## sir duke

As a jazz lover I see just the same fanatical arguments about the respective merits of the major recording labels. They all have their adherents and each group will swear to the inferiority of the other. Very roughly speaking you get something like this. (Just to complicate thing things Miles Davis did his best work on Columbia and Coltrane made it big first on Atlantic.) Me, I just like the music....

RCA/Victor/Savoy/Dial = wood
Blue Note = steel (but they have to be first pressing mono Blue Notes)
Prestige = aluminium
Impulse = titanium
ECM = carbon


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## terry b

sir duke said:


> As a jazz lover I see just the same fanatical arguments about the respective merits of the major recording labels. They all have their adherents and each group will swear to the inferiority of the other. Very roughly speaking you get something like this. (Just to complicate thing things Miles Davis did his best work on Columbia and Coltrane made it big first on Atlantic.) Me, I just like the music....
> 
> RCA/Victor/Savoy/Dial = wood
> Blue Note = steel (but they have to be first pressing mono Blue Notes)
> Prestige = aluminium
> Impulse = titanium
> ECM = carbon


What about CTI?


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## sir duke

terry b said:


> What about CTI?


Alu/carbon. Polished alu. 

Maybe titanium/ carbon is a better fit. Creed Taylor was the main producer at Impulse.


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## MikeBiker

sir duke said:


> As a jazz lover I see just the same fanatical arguments about the respective merits of the major recording labels. They all have their adherents and each group will swear to the inferiority of the other. Very roughly speaking you get something like this. (Just to complicate thing things Miles Davis did his best work on Columbia and Coltrane made it big first on Atlantic.) Me, I just like the music....
> 
> RCA/Victor/Savoy/Dial = wood
> Blue Note = steel (but they have to be first pressing mono Blue Notes)
> Prestige = aluminium
> Impulse = titanium
> ECM = carbon


Where does Big Beats Records fit in?


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## zmudshark

lemonlime said:


> Was this on a downhill?


This made me laugh, having tried to stay with atp on a downhill. I get scared over 40mph.


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## sir duke

MikeBiker said:


> Where does Big Beats Records fit in?



Geddafugowdaheer!!!


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## Henry Chinaski

This was my dirt bike from 1987 til the mid-90s, when I finally broke down and bought a mtb.


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## nOOky

CheapTrek said:


> One day the guy who got me riding showed up for our Sunday club ride on his classic Masi. I thought he just bought it for show and was surprised to see him riding it.
> 
> Shifters on the down tube, toe clips, original everything, and he made a point of tearing our legs off.
> 
> I assure you he was fast, riding steel, and having much more fun than the rest of us were.


I love these kinds of stories. If this were the mountain bike forums I'm sure some guy on a full suspension mountain bike wearing a Camelback and baggies with hairy legs would have went right around that guy.


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## Bremerradkurier

terry b said:


> Road bikes should never be ridden on gravel. They're called "road bikes" for a reason and that's because roads are made out of asphalt.
> 
> Bicycling should be telling people to buy MTBs if they want to ride on anything but asphalt. Or maybe concrete. If it's in good shape.


In the words of R. Lee Ermey from "Full Metal Jacket" , choke yourself:


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## NUTT

bikenerd said:


> Y'all must buy your steel bikes at Walmart. Ever heard of Richard Sachs? Paul Sadoff? Mike Zancanato?


Who are those guys? Steel isn't a valid form of bike manufacturing these days.


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## digital_photog

My Salsa Casseroll likes gravel and mud,


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## terry b

Bremerradkurier said:


> In the words of R. Lee Ermey from "Full Metal Jacket" , choke yourself:


He's getting paid to improperly use that bike.


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## wooglin

I never ride my pretty steel bike on gravel. I don't want to ding the paint.


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## wooglin

And now that I think of it, didn't Grant Petersen just publish a book?


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## Christine

_My old 80's Fisher was full rigid steel. Took me all over nasty Colorado roads and single track with nary a care. Loved it. Super stable._

It wasn't so much the bike itself as the unfamiliar truck road + me being fairly new to the sport at the time. That was my first mtb and I rode it for about a decade before finally getting front suspension. It was also my messenger bike, commuter, long-distance hauler, grocery-getter, and the first and only road century. 'course it had different tires along the way.

John eventually gave it away to his co-worker and I've been heartbroken ever since, but it could've fit better. I miss having a bike I can ride around the city w/o worrying about it (or components) getting stolen.


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## Tom Kunich

I'm afraid I have to agree. I have yet to find a bicycling magazine that doesn't insult the intelligence of a canary. Road biking magazines where every single test ends with "This is the greatest bike I've ever ridden" or words to that effect. MTB magazines with pictures of people turning 360 degree flips over 200 ft drops. Touring magazines that only have free tours of the Mongolian desert.

Absolutely NOTHING that talks about bicycles in a sane manner or uses of a bike that 99.99999% of the users would use it for. Bike messengers in San Francisco with a single speed and no brakes? Rowing across the Atlantic in a boat what has a bicycle attached to a propeller? Talking about how great a road bike is that weighs 12 lbs ready to ride? My friend weighs 180 lbs and isn't the world's most powerful rider and he breaks a set of Kyseriums every single year. And those aren't even super-light.


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## atpjunkie

Tom Kunich said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree. I have yet to find a bicycling magazine that doesn't insult the intelligence of a canary. Road biking magazines where every single test ends with "This is the greatest bike I've ever ridden" or words to that effect. MTB magazines with pictures of people turning 360 degree flips over 200 ft drops. Touring magazines that only have free tours of the Mongolian desert.
> 
> Absolutely NOTHING that talks about bicycles in a sane manner or uses of a bike that 99.99999% of the users would use it for. Bike messengers in San Francisco with a single speed and no brakes? Rowing across the Atlantic in a boat what has a bicycle attached to a propeller? Talking about how great a road bike is that weighs 12 lbs ready to ride? My friend weighs 180 lbs and isn't the world's most powerful rider and he breaks a set of Kyseriums every single year. And those aren't even super-light.


why does he keep riding them? I broke one K, had it repaired and sold the set
Have him get some custom built wheels 32 spoke 3x rear, 2x front.


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## SystemShock

Ze dredge, it is strong with this thread.


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## Tom Kunich

Well, he finally had one breakdown too many and went to the Campy wheels I recommended to him. Funny thing is that another friend who is FAR heavier has had his over a year now and they aren't making noises even on a pretty steep climb we did yesterday near Aquatic Park in San Francisco on our way to Marin.


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## Tom Kunich

weltyed said:


> fast, fun, and steel: choose two.


I have a late model Lemond Zurich made with Reynolds 853 tubing and it is all three. And it steers MUCH better than most bikes as well. Making nearly dead stop uturns doesn't make you think you're falling over like my steel Pinarellos (and most Italian bikes) did.

If you get a steel Mercian you discover an entirely new kind of handling. I couldn't say what it is about Mercians that make them feel so good but do they ever. They are not particularly light but while you don't get as tired riding a light bike all day long on big climbs you still can complete a ride. And anywhere else the handling of the Mercian shines.


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## Tom Kunich

NUTT said:


> Who are those guys? Steel isn't a valid form of bike manufacturing these days.


Then you're not a strong rider. If you're riding the Big Tours it makes a difference. If you're a sports/recreational rider if 2-4 lbs makes any difference other than absolute climbing speed you're a sissy. While carbon fiber is stronger than other materials for its weight, too often that is used to make unreasonably light parts so that they can say theirs are the lightest. If there is one thing you DO NOT want to break it is a frame while descending a rough road at 40 mph.


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## Tom Kunich

asciibaron said:


> you should have been alive in the 70's. the suffering was the stuff of legend. steel EVERYTHING.
> 
> *wink*


My Colnago CLX 3.0 weighs in at 19.5 lbs without the seat pack and water bottle. My 1991 Basso Loto steel bike weighs in at 22.5. Can you explain why that would make a difference with your riding pleasure? I ALWAYS have to worry that some carbon fiber part has been over-torgued and may fail. I NEVER have to worry about my steel and aluminum bikes.

While carbon fiber has a higher ultimate strength PER WEIGHT, they are often built too light. And steel or aluminum fails in slow phases whereas carbon fiber almost always fails catastrophically.

Furthermore, carbon fiber age-degenerates by hardening and/or cracking of the resin whereas steel is real.


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## Tom Kunich

Christine said:


> I have ridden a steel mtb down a long, steep, gravelly truck road(?), back in the day. That was terrifying.


Are you unfairly comparing the old unsuspended steel mountain bikes with the modern full suspension bikes? The suspension forks alone on the first steel mountain bikes were about 1/10th as effective as today's forks. This is why you see steel hardtails so popular. They work and they're cheap.


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## duriel

Aluminum fails can catastrophically fail, sometimes. Maybe not as common as carbon, but to say it doesn't is CRAZY!


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## Rashadabd

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned them, but I hear good things about the Stinner Refugio steel gravel bike. Rodeo has been producing the Flaanimal for years and it seems to do fine, a bit heavy, but fine. Niner has a line of steel gravel bikes and Ribble has one as well. Even Specialized makes a touring/gravel steel bike some people used and like (it’s another hefty one though). The moral of the story is there are plenty of steel gravel bikes on the market at different price points that are popular and people seem to be just fine riding them. I would prefer Ti over steel, but you can often find steel bikes at better price point.


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## Rashadabd

Norco makes a nice steel Search XR model too.


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## Tom Kunich

duriel said:


> Aluminum fails can catastrophically fail, sometimes. Maybe not as common as carbon, but to say it doesn't is CRAZY!


Any material CAN fail catastrophically. But the steel and aluminum bikes only extremely rarely do. And it is very difficult to find a lot of photographic evidence of carbo fiber breaking because most of those broken bike photos are from wrecks.

But I have seen three different carbon fiber bikes fail non-catastrophically - the modern way of building them is to build them in halves and to tape and resin them together. This is why Hambini goes on about rather well known brands being absolute (Hambini slang).

Since the highest forces on a bike are around the bottom bracket, you can see longitudinal cracks start there and begin working their way up the seat and down tubes. Now I am certain that that could lead to catastrophic failure but you'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind to let it get that far. As for catastrophic failures look at this:


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## Tom Kunich

atpjunkie said:


> why does he keep riding them? I broke one K, had it repaired and sold the set
> Have him get some custom built wheels 32 spoke 3x rear, 2x front.


That is what I finally did with him complaining the entire time. Now that he has discovered that you can't tell the extra weight on the wheels if you're not Joe Racer he's much happier and rides with a whole lot more confidence.


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## Tom Kunich

weltyed said:


> fast, fun, and steel: choose two.


I have an Extra Large Lemond Zurich of the last steel year with oversize Reynolds 853 tubing and it is as fast as anything, more fun to ride than most bikes and I can drop ALL of he Joe Racer types on a hard descent. Last Tuesday I was passed near the top of a climb by three guys a third my age. I passed them on the two mile descent and it wasn't until a hard climb started 5 miles later until they caught up. Now I am an absolute snail and make no bones about being slow. But your formula is flawed.


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## tomato coupe

SystemShock said:


> Ze dredge, it is strong with this thread.


Wow. This thread gets resurrected after 3.5 years of dormancy, and then again after 4 more years ... by the same person, no less!


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## Tom Kunich

Creakyknees said:


> is the cover photo of the August issue of Bicycling magazine.
> 
> Wherein they test "fast and fun steel bikes" (which I was unaware you could get both in the same bike).
> 
> And a very interesting article about the science of suffering.


Greg Lemond, Andy Hampstem and Lance Armstrong all won grand tours on steel bikes when titanium, aluminum and carbon fiber available. 

In the 1988 Giro de Italia Hampsten took off on the Gavia and Bob Roll drifted all the way back to the team car before the team car informed him that there was a blizzard on top of the Gavia and that he had to take heavy and dry clothing back up to Hampsten. Bobke actually chased Hampsten down on the Gavia in two feet of snow and despite drifting back after that so many leaders dropped out that Bobke finshed 6th on the stage if memory serves. 

Today you can build a steel bike within ounces of the UCI minimum weight limit. If that isn't "fast and fun" what are you suggesting is?


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## tomato coupe

Tom Kunich said:


> Greg Lemond, Andy Hampstem and Lance Armstrong all won grand tours on steel bikes when titanium, aluminum and carbon fiber available.


At least 2 of Greg Lemond's 3 Tour de France wins were on carbon fiber bikes. All 7 of Lance Armstrong's Tour de France "wins" were on carbon fiber bikes.


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## Lombard

Guys, pros ride bikes that their sponsors give them, period. They know that the average Joe will think, "Oh Greg Lemond won the TdF on that bike, I'm going to buy it" thinking that they will toast all their riding buddies up the hills where they couldn't before. Sorry, it's the engine, not the bike!

I come here not to praise or vilify any bike frame material. As has been said before, there are great carbon, Al, steel and Ti bikes and there are lousy carbon, Al, steel and Ti bikes. To say one frame material is oh so much better than any other is just blowing hot air. Any tubing can be shaped in any way to make a bike more responsive or more comfortable depending on the intended purpose. That frame design and tire choice will make a lot more difference than frame material. 

I have 2 road carbon, 2 steel (gravel and touring) and 3 aluminum (2 mtb, 1 hybrid) bikes. I love the one carbon road bike, the other not so much. I love the one steel gravel bike, the other touring bike not so much. The Al bikes all have a front suspension, one is a full-suspension. To compare any of these to any of the others and say one is better than the other because of frame material would be nothing short of ludicrous.


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## SystemShock

tomato coupe said:


> At least 2 of Greg Lemond's 3 Tour de France wins were on carbon fiber bikes. All 7 of Lance Armstrong's Tour de France "wins" were on carbon fiber bikes.


Did the Lance bikes dispense EPO? :lol:
.


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## Tom Kunich

tomato coupe said:


> At least 2 of Greg Lemond's 3 Tour de France wins were on carbon fiber bikes. All 7 of Lance Armstrong's Tour de France "wins" were on carbon fiber bikes.


Looking it up you entirely correct. But that Trek that Lance used was no lighter than a steel bike would have been. They were already hitting the UCI limits with Reynold's tubing. I have a Lemond Zurish with oversize Reynold's 853 in the largest size available and it weights in at 20 lbs without much light stuff on it.

I owned this Kestrel and it was no lighter than a good steel bike.


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## Tom Kunich

How do you know that Greg LeMond wasn't using EPO? Greg used to come into the early season so bad that he looked like he could hardly ride. When asked why there was such a huge change in performance for the Tour de France he said that his doctor had tested him and that he needed Iron Shots. His doctor could even be giving him EPO without even telling him.

At that time the blood banks were shut down because people were getting sick and dying and they didn't know why. I designed and programmed the machine that was used to discover HIV and then expanded it so that they identified its connection with AIDS.

Because of LeMond's hunting accident and the amount of blood he lost the NORMAL prescription would have been EPO which was developed about that time.


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## tomato coupe

Tom Kunich said:


> Looking it up you entirely correct. But that Trek that Lance used was no lighter than a steel bike would have been. They were already hitting the UCI limits with Reynold's tubing. I have a Lemond Zurish with oversize Reynold's 853 in the largest size available and it weights in at 20 lbs without much light stuff on it.
> 
> I owned this Kestrel and it was no lighter than a good steel bike.


Relevance?



Tom Kunich said:


> How do you know that Greg LeMond wasn't using EPO?


Did anyone even use Greg Lemonds name and EPO in the same sentence?



> At that time the blood banks were shut down because people were getting sick and dying and they didn't know why. I designed and programmed the machine that was used to discover HIV and then expanded it so that they identified its connection with AIDS.


Of course you did.



> Because of LeMond's hunting accident and the amount of blood he lost the NORMAL prescription would have been EPO which was developed about that time.


EPO wasn't approved by the FDA until two years after Lemond's hunting accident.


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## Tom Kunich

tomato coupe said:


> Relevance?
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone even use Greg Lemonds name and EPO in the same sentence?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you did.
> 
> 
> 
> EPO wasn't approved by the FDA until two years after Lemond's hunting accident.


I'm certainly not going to argue with some dim wit who never accomplished anything in his life about what I did or didn't do. Someone else commented about Armstrong and EPO. EPO was identified in 1985 and was available on the market in 1989. Maybe you missed it but his hunting accident was in 1986.

That Kestrel was the lightest carbon fiber bike on the market at the time. But apparently you have trouble connecting the dots.


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## Tom Kunich

Jim311 said:


> I remember when everybody hated steel, and aluminum was the next big thing. Now everyone hates aluminum, and carbon is in. I guess there are some fringers riding ti but I never recall it being a huge craze that went mainstream. I wonder what will we be onto once carbon jumps the shark?


The thread strength of Kevlar is higher than carbon fiber so I expect they'll be putting a layer of Kevlar in sooner or later so that it reduces the danger of breaking.


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## tomato coupe

Tom Kunich said:


> Someone else commented about Armstrong and EPO.


SystemShock made a joke about _Lance Armstrong's bike_, and you twisted that into "How do you know that Greg LeMond wasn't using EPO?" wtf?



> EPO was identified in 1985 and was available on the market in 1989. Maybe you missed it but his hunting accident was in 1986.


Get your facts straight. Lemond's shooting accident was in April 1987. EPO was approved by the FDA in June 1989, so there is no way Lemond was given a prescription for EPO to combat loss of blood.



> That Kestrel was the lightest carbon fiber bike on the market at the time. But apparently you have trouble connecting the dots.


You made a completely false statement about Armstrong and Lemond and the bikes they rode. I corrected your falsehood. There are no dots to connect -- the weight of your Kestrel has absolutely no relevance.


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## tomato coupe

Tom Kunich said:


> I have a late model Lemond Zurich ...





Tom Kunich said:


> The thread strength of Kevlar ...


Why are you responding to posts from 2012?


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## Lombard

Tom Kunich said:


> I'm certainly not going to argue with some dim wit who never accomplished anything in his life......


And YOU talk about others being insulting??  



tomato coupe said:


> Why are you responding to posts from 2012?


Only a _"dim wit who never accomplished anything in his life"_ would ask a question like that.


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## tomato coupe

Lombard said:


> Only a _"dim wit who never accomplished anything in his life"_ would ask a question like that.


Guilty as charged ...


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## rideit

Tom Kunich said:


> How do you know that Greg LeMond wasn't using EPO? Greg used to come into the early season so bad that he looked like he could hardly ride. When asked why there was such a huge change in performance for the Tour de France he said that his doctor had tested him and that he needed Iron Shots. His doctor could even be giving him EPO without even telling him.
> 
> At that time the blood banks were shut down because people were getting sick and dying and they didn't know why. I designed and programmed the machine that was used to discover HIV and then expanded it so that they identified its connection with AIDS.
> 
> Because of LeMond's hunting accident and the amount of blood he lost the NORMAL prescription would have been EPO which was developed about that time.


No one believes you, and no one is reading your posts without rolling their eyes, OK, boomer?


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## Tom Kunich

weltyed said:


> holy cow. people thought i was serious. three steel bikes, each more fun and fast than the last.


Well, do you come to discussion forums to not be serious? If you're pulling people legs on a written group remember that no one can see your expression.


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## Tom Kunich

terry b said:


> Road bikes should never be ridden on gravel. They're called "road bikes" for a reason and that's because roads are made out of asphalt.
> 
> Bicycling should be telling people to buy MTBs if they want to ride on anything but asphalt. Or maybe concrete. If it's in good shape.


You've obviously never ridden on a California road.


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## tomato coupe

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, do you come to discussion forums...





Tom Kunich said:


> You've obviously never ridden...


Two more responses to posts from the year 2012. Do you realize this is 2019?


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## Lombard

rideit said:


> No one believes you, and no one is reading your posts without rolling their eyes, OK, boomer?


I saw on another thread he said he's 75 which makes him pre-boomer.

It does seem odd that he's responding to ancient posts by people who haven't been here since 2014-2015. ut:


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## Tom Kunich

Lombard said:


> I saw on another thread he said he's 75 which makes him pre-boomer.
> 
> It does seem odd that he's responding to ancient posts by people who haven't been here since 2014-2015. ut:


Far better to talk to a dead human being than the jealous little do-nothing pansies that these groups have attracted. Have any of you ever done anything in the real world?

Why all the shock and dismay that I've owned so many bikes that you aren't smart enough to count that high? Exactly why do you think that carbon fiber is the only thing to even think about? Hydro-forming aluminum could offer you a bike that has the same weight and to all appearances looks the same. Eddy Merckx even sold a model like that. And you'd have a great deal less worry about catastrophic failure.

It's time for you to say, "Duhh aminumium fails toooo". Two days ago I was having problems with the grommet on my pump and although it was over-filling my tire it showed a great deal less pressure. The over-filling ruptured and delaminated a 50 mm deep carbon aero wheel and it is now sitting out in the garbage waiting to be picked up. Since I often rode this wheelset up to 60 mph that should be a lesson for you but it won't.

Here are just some of the carbon fiber bikes I've owned. Since I only have a two car garage I have to sell one off to have room for another. Does Mommy give you enough room for a bicycle?


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## pmf

Tom Kunich said:


> Well, do you come to discussion forums to not be serious? If you're pulling people legs on a written group remember that no one can see your expression.


You're 7.5 years too late on that come back.


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## pmf

Tom Kunich said:


> I owned this Kestrel and it was no lighter than a good steel bike.
> 
> View attachment 326497
> View attachment 326497


I was riding/racing that bike in 1992. It was red. Even had a Forgie stem on it. 

That was back when a bike less than 20 lbs was gee-whiz light. I don't recall what it weighed, but it seemed light at the time. And I got endless [email protected] from the steel is real crowd. These days everyone rides carbon bikes, and I'm pretty happy on my steel bikes. The only carbon bike I have is an old Colnago C-40 that I refurbished a couple years ago. Probably the lightest bike I own despite the frame being almost 20 years old. There's a lot more to the weight of a bike than just the frame. The Eddy is my fav.


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## Tom Kunich

pmf said:


> I was riding/racing that bike in 1992. It was red. Even had a Forgie stem on it.
> 
> That was back when a bike less than 20 lbs was gee-whiz light. I don't recall what it weighed, but it seemed light at the time. And I got endless [email protected] from the steel is real crowd. These days everyone rides carbon bikes, and I'm pretty happy on my steel bikes. The only carbon bike I have is an old Colnago C-40 that I refurbished a couple years ago. Probably the lightest bike I own despite the frame being almost 20 years old. There's a lot more to the weight of a bike than just the frame. The Eddy is my fav.
> View attachment 326523
> View attachment 326529
> View attachment 326527


If you look above you can see that I owned two different C40's that looked almost alike but they were in fact two different team colors. If you are still riding that C40 be sure and inspect EVERY ride around the head tube lugs. This is an area where they could have been built with voids and they can break off at the head tube. I've only seen one that I knew did this and two others that did it from crashes into cars. But it is something you want to remember could occur.


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## tomato coupe

Tom Kunich said:


> Why all the shock and dismay that I've owned so many bikes that you aren't smart enough to count that high?


Nobody cares how many bikes you've owned. Even if you've owned a thousand, it doesn't change the fact that most of what you write is demonstrably false.



> Two days ago I was having problems with the grommet on my pump and although it was over-filling my tire it showed a great deal less pressure. The over-filling ruptured and delaminated a 50 mm deep carbon aero wheel and it is now sitting out in the garbage waiting to be picked up. Since I often rode this wheelset up to 60 mph that should be a lesson for you but it won't.


I'm willing to bet they were inexpensive, unbranded wheels. Correct?


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## Lombard

Tom Kunich said:


> Far better to talk to a dead human being than the *jealous little do-nothing pansies* that these groups have attracted. Have any of you ever done anything in the real world?
> 
> Why all the shock and dismay that I've owned so many bikes that *you aren't smart enough to count that high*?
> 
> *Does Mommy give you enough room for a bicycle?*


There you go again with the empty 4th grade level insults. Lame, very, very lame. 



Tom Kunich said:


> Exactly why do you think that carbon fiber is the only thing to even think about?


Obviously you have not been paying attention to my posts or you would know that I never said anything like this. Did you even read my post #74? It's obvious you didn't or you would know I have no love for carbon anymore than other materials, nor do I condemn it. Please read my post. Or are you just so wrapped up in "carbon sucks" that you immediately jump on anyone who says anything good about it?



Tom Kunich said:


> The over-filling ruptured and delaminated a 50 mm deep carbon aero wheel and it is now sitting out in the garbage waiting to be picked up.


For the record, I have never recommended carbon rims. There are too many good alloy rims at a much better price point to even bother with carbon rims. And if you are dumb enough to buy cheap no-name Chinese carbon wheels, what do you expect? And why do you need a 50mm deep section aero wheel? Are your legs not strong enough?



Tom Kunich said:


> Since I often rode this wheelset up to 60 mph that should be a lesson for you but it won't.


IMO, you have to be crazy to take a bike up to motorcycle speeds, but to each his/her own.



Tom Kunich said:


> Here are just some of the carbon fiber bikes I've owned. Since I only have a two car garage I have to sell one off to have room for another.


So what? Many of us here own multiple bikes. Does bragging about this make you feel like more of a man? My count is now 7. I had 9, but sold 2. Big effing deal.


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## Lombard

pmf said:


> You're 7.5 years too late on that come back.


Repped! :thumbsup:


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