# Confussed about alloy nipples vs brass nipples and one more thing



## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

Since I know nothing about wheels I'm trying to read alot. So it seems brass nipples are the way to go and radical lacing on the front wheel isn't the best idea yet looking at built wheels and not cheap ones they seem to do radical lacing on the front and use alloy nipples all around.. I'm so confussed!


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Aluminium nipples are ok, most of the time. They're more likely to corrode (not a problem for someone in SoCal, and it's never been a problem for me in rainy NorCal even on my rain bike). They also round more easily, so you have to be more careful with the spoke wrench. I think that's their biggest drawback.

I've used brass on the DS on training wheels. A few extra grams is no big deal. I use aluminium for the other nipples. The DS spokes have the highest tension.

I can't tell a difference in ride or stiffness between radial and cross lacing on the front. There's no reliability issue either. Theoretically the crosses brace the spokes making the wheel laterally stiffer but for a front wheel it doesn't matter as it's already stiffer than the rear. For the rear it does matter but there the flange spacing matters more. I wouldn't not buy a set of wheels because the rear's radial on one side. One of my more used wheels is built that way and it's yet to break a spoke.

In short, don't worry about it.


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## CAADEL (Jul 23, 2011)

ericm979 said:


> Theoretically the crosses brace the spokes making the wheel laterally stiffer but for *a front wheel it doesn't matter as it's already stiffer than the rear*. For the rear it does matter but there the flange spacing matters more.


Why is the front wheel stiffer? Is it because its symmetrically built while the rear is not?

Isn't the wheel stiffness related to the rim stiffness and spoke tension?


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

The front wheel is stiffer because the flanges are spaced out farther from the center of the hub. This can happen because there's no need for a cassette to fit on the front wheel.

Spoke tension has nothing to do with wheel stiffness, a strong rim and good bracing angle are the most important things to make a wheel stiff. Lacing patten doesn't really help to increase the stiffness but it does help transfer torque, which is why you have to cross at least some of the spokes in the rear wheel. A rear wheel with spokes crossed on both sides is going to transfer torque better than a rear wheel with one side laced radially. 

For the front since there is no torque being transferred to the rim radial lacing is ok. If you had disc brakes though you would need to cross the spokes on the front wheel as well.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Aluminum nipples have been fine in all my wheels (mountain bike, road, track) for 12-15 years with no issues. They can corrode if conditions are right (I've never experienced that) and they aren't kind to sloppy mechanics with bad spoke wrenches. Their weight savings won't win you a race and their best attributes are their colors. Some people don't use them on the rear drive side but I use them with no problems. That's the story.

Radial lacing is a choice or a fad - you decide. It also wont win or lose you a race. I have radial, 1x, 2x and 3x front wheels and I can't tell the difference if I'm not looking at them. I prefer not to have radial but I don't know why. That's the story.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

There's nothing really wrong with radial lacing on the front wheel, IMO. Not all hubs are rated for it, and it doesn't necessarily do anything significant for the wheel either.

A very old wheel I rebuilt had some corrosion on some of the spoke nipples. I reused them anyway, which was dumb, so next time I won't. But you'd need some other circumstances to make them into a problem during the life of the rim, and I'm told (and can see why) it's better practice to replace the nipples when replacing a rim anyway, regardless of material.

So buying parts and building a la carte, I wouldn't do anything other than 32-hole rims and hubs, double-butted (and maybe funny-shaped, but probably not) J-bend spokes and brass nipples, and I'd build the wheels three-cross. Buying built wheels, I'd be okay with radial on the front and alloy nipples. It "seems" like a bad idea to me to lace the spokes on one side of a rear wheel that way, but people don't necessarily have problems with it, so whatever.

I do care about spoke count. I think low spoke counts are stupid. How low is low? I've always done fine with 32 on the rear, so I imagine I'd be just fine with 28 in front. A friend of mine does all his wheels 36 because he doesn't think it has much effect on how well he does on the occasion that he competes, and he thinks his wheels last longer. I like having wheels with a lot of interchangeable parts and 32 is a bit more common. But when I decided I needed to build a new rear wheel (to replace one with 24 spokes and cracks showing up at the holes in the rim) and I had a 36-spoke hub on hand, my shop had two 36-hole rims to choose from, and they're mostly oriented toward racers. So not exactly an uncommon item.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

What about those nipples that lock? Gimmick or useful and when would one use them if useful.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Self locking nipples or thread locking compounds (which self locking nipples already contain) are either needed if you can't, won't or don't tighten nipples enough for them not to unscrew from lack of proper tension or you're just a belt & suspenders type of person. I haven't had a nipple unscrew in 2.5 decades so I don't need thread glue. Others findings may vary.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

shokhead said:


> Since I know nothing about wheels I'm trying to read alot. So it seems brass nipples are the way to go and radical lacing on the front wheel isn't the best idea yet looking at built wheels and not cheap ones they seem to do radical lacing on the front and use alloy nipples all around.. I'm so CONFUSED!


 _ftfy, there's only one 's' in confused. _



Mike T. said:


> Self locking nipples or thread locking compounds (which self locking nipples already contain) are either needed if you can't, won't or don't tighten nipples enough for them not to unscrew from lack of proper tension or you're just a belt & suspenders type of person. I haven't had a nipple unscrew in 2.5 decades so I don't need thread glue. Others findings may vary.


 and i'll agree w/ mike on this one as well, if you bring the spokes up to proper tension, nothing other than lubricant is needed. brass nipples are great for the most durability or for someone that doesn't necessarily take good care of their equipment. of for someone that has issues w/ corrosion. radial lacing on the front is fine as long as the hub is approved for it.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

So those nipples that lock are ok and work like a reg alloy nipple, just unnecessary.

ftfy, I don't correct others fwiw or I would have pointed out your mistype.

Be nice to your elders. LMAOH


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

I like using the self locking nipples. . .there's no drawback to using them and they have been working great for me.

On the non-drive side rear if you are using a hub that has wide spaced flanges you are looking to be running about 45-55% of the tension of the drive side. If you lace your drive side to high tension this will be plenty sufficient to hold the non drive side nipples in place, however as the wheel revolves the tension also changes. There will be a cycle where the tension is lower and this is where it can help to have just a little something extra to hold the nipples in place. . .especially if there's no drawback.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

IMO, radial is stiffer: The spokes are shorter. The spokes are straight rather then bent at a crossing. The spokes make a greater angle with the plane of the wheel. For these same reasons, a number of wheel manufactures (Zipp, some Mavic, ... ) use radial on the rear drive side and cross the non-drive side to transfer torque.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

shokhead said:


> So those nipples that lock are ok and work like a reg alloy nipple, just unnecessary.
> 
> ftfy, I don't correct others fwiw or I would have pointed out your mistype.
> 
> Be nice to your elders. LMAOH


hey, i'm old too!


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

I just noticed Boyd has self-Locking Brass Nipples. Other then brass no different then the alloy self locking?


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## BWWpat (Dec 17, 2009)

Use brass if: They salt your roads due to snow, you live in an area that gets heavy ocean fog, if you leave your bike outside a lot, or if you are looking for complete durability.

Alloy for anything else.

As for self locking I have never found a need for them, if built right you shouldn't need it. but wouldn't knock a wheel that was built right and had them.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*another reason to use brass...*



BWWpat said:


> Use brass if: They salt your roads due to snow, you live in an area that gets heavy ocean fog, if you leave your bike outside a lot, or if you are looking for complete durability.


If you have overly salty sweat, brass is a better choice.

I had to replace my alloy nipples on a rear wheel because my sweat was corroding the alloy ones to the point of failure. (Seriously, it was _that bad._)


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

BWWpat said:


> Use brass if: They salt your roads due to snow, you live in an area that gets heavy ocean fog, if you leave your bike outside a lot, or if you are looking for complete durability.
> 
> Alloy for anything else.
> 
> As for self locking I have never found a need for them, if built right you shouldn't need it. but wouldn't knock a wheel that was built right and had them.


So if someone is building with self-locking nipples maybe they aren't very good builders or just lazy?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

shokhead said:


> So if someone is building with self-locking nipples maybe they aren't very good builders or just lazy?


Maybe they could also lack confidence in their ability? (joke!!) 

Actually I'm surprised that *I* don't use them, or locking SpokePrep or Loctite, as I build so few wheels that until a few rides/days/ weeks of use is past, I worry that the wheels are going to come apart. If I built wheels for others I'd be paranoid. But since learning that the secret to wheel integrity is sufficient tension, even tensions and scrupulous stress relief (and I'll add windup relief and spoke bedding in with that term) I haven't had a well-lubed nipple (with anti-sieze compound) come loose in decades. So I guess there's nothing to worry about *if* wheels are built right.


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## BWWpat (Dec 17, 2009)

shokhead said:


> So if someone is building with self-locking nipples maybe they aren't very good builders or just lazy?


oh no, Im not saying that at all. Some people prefer them but in my opinion they don't add or take away anything from a properly tensioned wheel.

Now, if the builder has constant tension issues and feels that the locking nipple were the remedy over putting properly tension into the wheel then yes.


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

If they don't add or take away anything from a properly tensioned wheel and the wheel is tensioned properly but they do cost more then why use them? I must be missing or not understanding something. Maybe it just adds a backup to tensioned spokes just in case?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

shokhead said:


> If they don't add or take away anything from a properly tensioned wheel and the wheel is tensioned properly but they do cost more then why use them? I must be missing or not understanding something. Maybe it just adds a backup to tensioned spokes just in case?


Maybe it gives some kind of peace of mind that some people need or want regardless of expense. And I guess that's ok too. It just must be on record that some people have proved that they are not necessary.


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## BWWpat (Dec 17, 2009)

shokhead said:


> If they don't add or take away anything from a properly tensioned wheel and the wheel is tensioned properly but they do cost more then why use them? I must be missing or not understanding something. Maybe it just adds a backup to tensioned spokes just in case?


Mike T pretty much nailed it.

Some people think it matters, and to them, all the power to them. From my years of building I found them unnecessary. But don't just take my word for it, what it comes down to is your mind set. If you don't feel 100% confident in your wheel set you wont push your self 100%, even if its just subconsciously. 

Some people bought into the mind set and refuse to buy anything without it, those are usually the people who have had improperly built wheels in the first place and were told that it was going to be the fix by a LBS wrench that didn't know how to make a wheel evenly tensioned. But later in life if that wheel was not tensioned properly it will fail either way, the lock may hold on to it for a little longer but if it was built right in the first place it would not have needed it in the first place.

Basically if you want a long story short you should put your confidence in the builder and not get distracted by the little stuff. I would never discredit a builder that used them as long as he properly built the wheel. Locking nipples or not if its been built properly it will last a long time and if its not then failure is in your future.

-Pat


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## shokhead (Dec 17, 2002)

I noticed that ROL and Boyd both use self locking nipples. Why if they are both known for being good wheel builders and each has in house wheels built by hand?


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## Randy99CL (Mar 27, 2013)

But a few excellent, experienced builders have already stated that the self-locking nipples aren't necessary. Some use them and some don't; the decision is yours.

I've also heard that the self-lockers are harder to turn when the tension increases, so if you're using light spokes that will twist you're likely better off to _not_ use the lockers.


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## Clipped_in (May 5, 2011)

coachboyd said:


> I like using the self locking nipples. . .there's no drawback to using them and they have been working great for me.


That makes perfect sense for someone who is shipping wheels all over God's green earth who expects them to be perfect and to stay that way.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

He may not be listening to your advice, since the last post in this thread was 14 months ago, and his last post anywhere on the board was 9 months ago. But maybe someone else will benefit.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

With the current fad of poorly spaced hubs (11 speed stuff), very light rims and low spoke count, spoke-freeze will need to become the new standard for "good" wheels. Its absolutley not necessary or beneficial to well built and properly spec'd wheels, but when you put a ~220lb rider on a 20/24 spoke wheel set with a 16mm DS offset and 400g rims, its going to self-loosen! 

I still wont build wheels I dont believe in, but its just a hobby for me. The builders who want to stay competitive are going to need to start using spoke-freeze and just hoping for the best with some of this modern gear.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

if you live coastal So Cal Aluminum nipples suck
salt air will corrode and freeze them faster than shite midwest weather


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

radial lacing = stiffer vertically, more flexy on angled axis. So when driving hard in a corner the wheel will flex more


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