# Bernard Hinault weighs in on how doping has ruined the image of the Tour.



## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Bernard Hinault claims Lance Armstrong has become stain on 'glorious cycling memories' - Cycling Weekly


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Thank God neither he nor anyone else from his era or before doped. Yep, Lance invented doping. And EPO is totally different from speed and steroids. Yep.

Hinault is my personal favorite rider of all time but he is and always has been a galatic-level *******.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

He's trying to save face, apparently with the still inept crowd. 



Hiro11 said:


> Thank God he or no one else from his era or before doped. Yep, Lance invented doping. And EPO is totally different from speed and steroids. Yep.
> 
> Hinault is my personal favorite rider of all time but he is and always has been a galatic-level *******.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

The rats always hate the rat that got caught that talks. Somehow I feel like a call with Greg was a preamble.

Don't get me wrong [or right] LA out douched them all from where I sit.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Hiro11 said:


> Thank God neither he nor anyone else from his era or before doped. Yep, Lance invented doping. And EPO is totally different from speed and steroids. Yep.
> 
> Hinault is my personal favorite rider of all time but he is and always has been a galatic-level *******.


I liked Hinault too back when I got interested in the sport as a teenager, but he's part of the problem now. It's getting embarrassing.


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## MisterMike (Aug 12, 2004)




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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I don't suspect Hinault was clean. LeMond mentioned that he was one of the few cyclists who would allow interviews because he wasn't busy doping. It's unfortunate he didn't name names.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I don't suspect Hinault was clean. LeMond mentioned that he was one of the few cyclists who would allow interviews because he wasn't busy doping. It's unfortunate he didn't name names.


Fignon implicates Hinault directly in his autobiography.

Edit: Former pros agree on this:
Hinault criticised by former peers for his Lance Armstrong comments | Cyclingnews.com


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

LeMond and Hinault both beat cyclists that were admitted dopers. Either the other riders really sucked at doping or they were all doping and LeMond and Hinault were marginally better with good teams.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

bigbill said:


> LeMond and Hinault both beat cyclists that were admitted dopers. Either the other riders really sucked at doping or they were all doping and LeMond and Hinault were marginally better with good teams.


Or, speed and cortisone don't enhance one's performance nearly as much as blood manipulation. :wink:


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

mpre53 said:


> Or, speed and cortisone don't enhance one's performance nearly as much as blood manipulation. :wink:


This.

Not that the stuff they were doing in that era was all that wonderful (I somehow doubt Tom Simpson was the only one jacked up on amphetamines on Ventoux that day), but it just can't compare to the EPO era. While transfusions were used, the logistics weren't as refined, making it a much harder proposition than in later years.

The Badger is a difficult figure as he always was. He seems to forget the sins of his generation led to the sins of the next. They were just taking it to the next level and pushing the envelope in search of greater performance. This did not happen in a vacuum. Lance was the culmination of something that had been building for decades. At a certain point, though, it becomes something you can't wink at anymore as "not that big of a deal". This goes across national borders, from sport to sport, and it will continue as long as athletes and those who enable them think they can get away with it.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

I always liked Hinault. This sums up why pretty nicely. 

Gallery: Hinault's punching victim wasn't cycling's only protester - VeloNews.com

I think he makes bad points and good points. I think it is misguided to try and pretend like the 90s are some dark era, but the 50s or 80s or whatever were great. I think it would be better to talk realistically about past doping. The health impacts weren't known and the sport didn't take doping seriously enough. 

He's kinda trying to push the 'myth,' of a Golden Age of heroic cycling or something. Not as bad as Armstrong's cancer hero myth, but still manipulative and untrue. I don't need a myth, or heroes; I'd just like to watch some good cycling. 

I think he makes a good point about cycling versus other sports. Lots of other sports have doping problems, or at least rumors of doping problems. But they don't get the same attention as cycling. I'm not saying cycling should go back to omerta days, but I think other sports need to do more to fight doping.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

The guys of Hinault's generation didn't have access to synthetic EPO -- it was not yet invented. If it had been around we can rest assured that they would have taken it.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> The guys of Hinault's generation didn't have access to synthetic EPO -- it was not yet invented. If it had been around we can rest assured that they would have taken it.


Really? 

Fignon is part of Hinault's generation, they were even teammates. He wrote openly of his doping.....but he would not touch EPO. He was one of the most talented riders of his generation who retired after he was getting dropped by sprinters because he refused to take EPO


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)




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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Really?
> 
> Fignon is part of Hinault's generation, they were even teammates. He wrote openly of his doping.....but he would not touch EPO. He was one of the most talented riders of his generation who retired after he was getting dropped by sprinters because he refused to take EPO


So you're saying that a few guys wouldn't take it once it became available and several riders started taking it? 

I'm not sure how that disputes my position that if cyclists had been introduced to EPO a generation earlier, cyclists would have started taking it a generation earlier. (Even at the height of the EPO era there were _some_ clean riders.) But if you really think there was some ethical or moral change, can you explain what caused the change?

Or, can you explain what caused the EPO era to happen in the first place, if not the introduction and availability of EPO?


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Here's one great rider that decided to call it a day once the water carriers started flying. 
Edwig Van Hooydonck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Local Hero said:


> So you're saying that a few guys wouldn't take it once it became available and several riders started taking it?
> 
> I'm not sure how that disputes my position that if cyclists had been introduced to EPO a generation earlier, cyclists would have started taking it a generation earlier. (Even at the height of the EPO era there were _some_ clean riders.) But if you really think there was some ethical or moral change, can you explain what caused the change?
> 
> Or, can you explain what caused the EPO era to happen in the first place, if not the introduction and availability of EPO?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> So you're saying that a few guys wouldn't take it once it became available and several riders started taking it?
> 
> I'm not sure how that disputes my position that if cyclists had been introduced to EPO a generation earlier, cyclists would have started taking it a generation earlier. (Even at the height of the EPO era there were _some_ clean riders.) But if you really think there was some ethical or moral change, can you explain what caused the change?
> 
> Or, can you explain what caused the EPO era to happen in the first place, if not the introduction and availability of EPO?


My point is clear, not sure why you don't get it. 

You wrote


Local Hero said:


> The *guys of Hinault's generation* didn't have access to synthetic EPO -- it was not yet invented. *If it had been around we can rest assured that they would have taken it.*


The fact is many of Hinault's generation did get access to EPO and they said no. Fignon, Van Hooydonck, Charly Mottet, Giles Delion, LeMond, Steve Bauer, Eric Caritoux, Andy Hampsten. All were "Guys of Hinault's generation" and all said no to EPO


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> My point is clear, not sure why you don't get it.
> 
> You wrote
> 
> ...


You're arguing with a guy who bs'ed and said another poster confessed to talking about his Dad's cancer diagnosis to get sympathy. Greg Lemond riding with dopers??? What the F....? - Page 2

Speaking more broadly, doping apoligists have talking point: everyone was doing it, everyone would do it, witch hunt. 

People are entitled to their opinions, but not their own facts. OK, if someone has the opinion that Hinault or Coppi or whoever would have used EPO - that's their opinion. But the facts don't square with 'everyone was doing it.'

I'll add that on the "Dr. Falsetti" Olympic Squad, a number of riders turned down blood transfusions. So not 'everyone' does it / will do it.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> The fact is many of Hinault's generation did get access to EPO and they said no. Fignon, Van Hooydonck, Charly Mottet, Giles Delion, LeMond, Steve Bauer, Eric Caritoux, Andy Hampsten. All were "Guys of Hinault's generation" and all said no to EPO


Didn't these guys have access to transfusions. In cycling, this was apparently pioneered by a Dr. Herman Falsetti. 

Still, kinda hard to start an argument with a known doper like Fignon.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Didn't these guys have access to transfusions. In cycling, this was apparently pioneered by a Dr. Herman Falsetti.
> 
> Still, kinda hard to start an argument with a known doper like Fignon.


Doping isn't that black and white. Some dopers are willing to do one drug, but not another. Like they'll use T and insulin, but not steroids. It isn't always logical, but people get their own ideas about what is safe, what works, etc...

I'm not saying it's OK to dope. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as 'clean riders' or 'they'll take anything.' There's an inbetween. Look at recreational drugs. There are plenty of people who smoke pot, or take ecstasy, but draw the line at coke or heroin. 

Fignon doped, but conversely he was upfront about it. He confessed to using a boatload of drugs, but said he staid away from EPO. I tend to believe the guys who are like 'what, you think I rode Le Tour on pain y aqua?' Just my opinion.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Alaska Mike said:


> This.
> 
> Not that the stuff they were doing in that era was all that wonderful (I somehow doubt Tom Simpson was the only one jacked up on amphetamines on Ventoux that day), but it just can't compare to the EPO era. While transfusions were used, the logistics weren't as refined, making it a much harder proposition than in later years.


This is a specious argument, one that lots of former doping pros make so as to make themselves seem more acceptable. Just because the technology has progressed does not mean that current riders are any more guilty than past riders. Intent is what matters here. I guarantee you that had EPO been available, riders in the 60s, 70s and 80s would have taken to it like a duck to water. Note that blood transfusions were legal and widely used at that time, even by Alexi Grewal and the rest of the US Olympic team.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> My point is clear, not sure why you don't get it.
> 
> You wrote
> 
> ...


All right, so what changed over the next few years? 

I'm not trying to argue but genuinely interested: Can you explain what caused the EPO era to happen in the first place, if not the introduction and availability of EPO?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Hiro11 said:


> I guarantee you that had EPO been available, riders in the 60s, 70s and 80s would have taken to it like a duck to water.


This is what I am saying. 

If someone believes differently, can they explain what changed?


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> All right, so what changed over the next few years?
> 
> I'm not trying to argue but genuinely interested: Can you explain what caused the EPO era to happen in the first place, if not the introduction and availability of EPO?


That, and watching Mig go from a guy who struggled to crack the top 100, to, well, El Supremo. In a season or two. :wink:


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

mpre53 said:


> That, and watching Mig go from a guy who struggled to crack the top 100, to, well, El Supremo. In a season or two. :wink:


But Big Mig lost weight and started pedaling with a higher cadence and he has a larger than average heart and lungs and...hey...wait just a cotton pickin' minute!


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

mpre53 said:


> That, and watching Mig go from a guy who struggled to crack the top 100, to, well, El Supremo. In a season or two. :wink:


This is pretty well trod over ground. Many of the "guys" who weren't willing to take EPO didn't get to become pro-cyclists, they got pushed aside by the "guys" who were willing to take EPO. 

Look at Dr. Falsetti's list - a number of those riders got pushed from the sport when EPO came around. There were clean "guys" who tried to come up during the EPO generation, but very few of them cracked the pro ranks. 

If we want to understand what "guys" of any generation would be willing to do, you have to look at a fair cross section of "guys," from local racers up to pros. You can't just take a 'biased' selection of people and then say it represents all "guys."

Selection bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think what Dr. F is saying is correct - not all "guys" took or would take EPO. 

He did not, however, say 'there would be no consequences for refusing to take EPO.' So "guys" like Hampsten get pushed into retirement. And "guys" like Bassons and Mercier never really get to make a career for themselves. 

Here is a "guy", Nathan Page, who claims he got pushed from the sport because of his refusal to take PEDs, including EPO. We'd probably never hear his story, if it weren't for him staring in a TV show (OK, the handsome part helps). How many not-famous guys are there who can say "hey, I quit cycling because I wouldn't take EPO?"
Actor recycles history of staying clean


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I wonder if any clean riders were pushed from the sport for refusing to take what Fignon took.


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## Mandeville (Oct 18, 2014)

See Bernard Hinault's picture in the OP? His opinion matches the silliness of his image. A person can hide behind the excuse that they are French only so far. 

The man was and is a world class megalomaniac whose foremost unfulfilled wish is to be able to die in his own arms.


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## Bluenote (Oct 28, 2012)

Fignon's doping may have pushed guys out of the sport. Or they never got offers from pro teams because they were seen as "too difficult" (aka, unwilling to dope). But we've come full circle back to here. 
Bernard Hinault weighs in on how doping has ruined the image of the Tour.

No one is saying "Fignon was a Saint." Or "Fignon's cheating was OK."


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Hiro11 said:


> This is a specious argument, one that lots of former doping pros make so as to make themselves seem more acceptable. Just because the technology has progressed does not mean that current riders are any more guilty than past riders. Intent is what matters here. I guarantee you that had EPO been available, riders in the 60s, 70s and 80s would have taken to it like a duck to water. Note that blood transfusions were legal and widely used at that time, even by Alexi Grewal and the rest of the US Olympic team.


Riders stuffed all sorts of substances into their bodies, yet it was easier then to compete clean. With EPO, it was like going into a dim room and flipping on a light switch. Transfusions are significantly harder to for riders to safely and effectively accomplish logistically, even today.

Of course riders then would have taken EPO if it was available. Hinault is probably the only one to think any different, and he would have too. The riders of that and earlier eras modeled behavior that set the stage for the EPO era. This didn't occur in a vacuum.

I always though Alexi didn't blood dope because he wasn't in tight with Eddie B. He did admit to taking other stuff for performance gains during his career, though.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Mandeville said:


> See Bernard Hinault's picture in the OP? His opinion matches the silliness of his image. A person can hide behind the excuse that they are French only so far.


Yeah, I think it's about time for him to switch over to the "club fit" jersey. :lol:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Bluenote said:


> Doping isn't that black and white. Some dopers are willing to do one drug, but not another. Like they'll use T and insulin, but not steroids. It isn't always logical, but people get their own ideas about what is safe, what works, etc...
> 
> I'm not saying it's OK to dope. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as 'clean riders' or 'they'll take anything.' There's an inbetween. Look at recreational drugs. There are plenty of people who smoke pot, or take ecstasy, but draw the line at coke or heroin.
> 
> Fignon doped, but conversely he was upfront about it. He confessed to using a boatload of drugs, but said he staid away from EPO. I tend to believe the guys who are like 'what, you think I rode Le Tour on pain y aqua?' Just my opinion.


I guess I don't really see it as black and white when it comes to anabolic steroids and amphetamines. I'll maybe give albuterol or the occasionaly topical catabolic steroid some gray area. Although, I was called a doper when I used some prednisone instead of injected hydrocortisone for trigger finger in my fretting hand. Something about a needle going into a hand tendon scared me. 

Still, even then, albuterol and/or catabolic steroids seemed to be the least of many offenses. We all felt bad about Vaughters and the bee sting, but he had previously used EPO. Sure, he may have said he was clean that time, but don't they all? They really mean it this time, too. 

As for drawing the line at EPO or blood doping, I'm not 100% convinced that everyone is telling the truth. How many Rabobank riders confessed to Cortisone but were probably using the bad yogurt?


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