# xs or xxs frame for 163cm rider?.....



## miker2012 (May 4, 2012)

question for male and female riders around 163cm..... i cant decide if i should get the xs or the xxs in the argon 18 gallium... i have a short heigth (163cm), inseam (28" 72 cm) and short arms and feet and torso, most regular sized bikes do not fit me at all... i had a fitting and was told that i should be riding a bike with a top tube no longer than 50cm... but the only bikes i can find with a top tube this size are the 44-46cm bikes

here are the geometries.... xs has a 52 TT, 10.6 HT length, 74.5 ST angle, the xxs has a 50.2 TT, 10.1 HT length and 75.5 ST angle

i test rode both... the xs had a 90mm stam and the xxs had a 70mm stem

the xs felt good but not perfect, the reach felt just a fractional amount too long and since the bike already came with a 90mm stem, didnt want to risk it and have to go to a 80 or shorter stem so i figured the xxs would be a better fit

the xxs felt very comfy both in the saddle and out of it, even with the 70mm stem (which i will be swapping out for a 90-100 if i buy this bike) however, when out of the saddle on the hoods and really exaggertaingly pushing my knees fwd, i could hit the bars with my knees.... the bike felt maybe a tad cramped but that would be fixed with a longer stem

so i guess my question is, does the xxs sound too small? i want the aero look to my bike and i want alot of exposed seatpost and a a longish stem but not at the expense of proper fit.... when the xxs was set up for my by the dealer, it didnt have more than normal amount of seatpost exposed so wouldnt that suggest the xxs is the right size? the amount of exposed seatpost on the xs's i tested (on the cannondale and the argon) seemed a little low which suggested that they were a tad big?

any thoughts would be much appreciated


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

The amount of exposed seatpost isn't really an indication of anything (other than maybe your inseam is short in proportion to your height), so I'd ignore that for the most part. If you are only hitting the bars when you're trying to hit them with your knees, then that combined with going to a longer stem means it won't likely be a problem? I would go for what felt the most comfortable. If "aero" is a consideration, you can get more saddle to bar drop on the smaller sized frame versus the larger sized frame, since the difference is limited by the stack which is taller on the bigger frame.

If for some aesthetic reason you MUST have more exposed seatpost, then get a frame with compact geometry like Giant does with their bikes. Cannondale and Argon have top tubes that are relatively horizontal or only slightly sloping, so you will have less seatpost showing. Personally I don't care much about that aspect, and much prefer that people are looking at my rear as I drop them in the sprint or up the hill...


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## miker2012 (May 4, 2012)

thx for the post..... its so hard for me to say which was more comfortable cause they were surprisingly similar... i want to like the xxs better though, for whatever reason

let me clarify..... i have ridden poorly fitting bikes my whole life, including my last bike which was a 52cm tarmac elite and i am determined to get a proper fitting bike, i dont want to let dealers make the same mistake this time that they made for me last time

when i reference seat post heigth, i was not referring to it in the stylistic sense but rather in a purely fitting sense... since i have been poorly fitted on bikes my whole life, i never had the standover heigth i wanted (seat tube too long and angle too slack) and therefore by definition the top tubes were too big for me, especially pronounced by my short torso and arms and hands and feet

i want to make sure that i get the bike with the seat tube angle/top tube length that best fits me this time around... on the tarmac, i felt like i had a bike and a half in front of me when riding, the reach, stack and distance from BB to bars was horribly too big, the whole thing was so wrong that it made me feel like i was swimming when on the hoods riding out of the saddle, like my back legs would kick out from under me.... the only position on the tarmac that i had any power in was of of the saddle, in the drops 

when i tested the 48cm bikes, they were much better than the tarmac fit and reach wise but still the 52 TT on these bikes scared me (tarmac was a 53.7cm TT) and my arms were just a tad stretched, probably could have been cured by taking the stem back but the stem was a 90 so it would leave me with little room to move back so thats why i am leaning towards the 50 TT on the xxs.... when i rode the xxs, the seat position in relation to BB felt perfect and my butt felt planted... even on a bike with a 70mm stem, my hands were very comfy in all positions (cockpit was a tad little cramped but it had a 70mm stem and i could see the front axle abit while on hoods/drops so the stem needs to come out brobably to a 90) and body weigth was well supported.... the xxs felt really good but again so hard to tell without getting a long ride on the bike and fitting a longer stem

still would like to hear from others small men riding similar setups..... i guess i am just concerned and i dont want to go TOO small..... i want a nice aero look to the bike as well but like i just want to make sure first and foremost i get the best fit possible 

thanks


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I agree with milkbaby on the exposed seat post being of minimal importance - and would add that you're placing too much importance on stem lengths. 

Just as the overall geometry of bike frames 'grows' proportionally with size, so do stem lengths. So while running a 70mm stem on a 58 cm frame would indicate a sizing problem, that doesn't necessarily hold true on the sizes you're looking at. 

If you're between sizes, I'd suggest having your fitter fine tune the xxs, with you test riding as s/he tweaks fit. If it ends up you're running a 70, 80, 90mm stem, so be it. As stated, none would indicate a sizing issue.

BTW, we don't look at bikes, we ride them .So I suggest setting aside aesthetics and focus on what feels right.


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## miker2012 (May 4, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> I agree with milkbaby on the exposed seat post being of minimal importance - and would add that you're placing too much importance on stem lengths.
> 
> Just as the overall geometry of bike frames 'grows' proportionally with size, so do stem lengths. So while running a 70mm stem on a 58 cm frame would indicate a sizing problem, that doesn't necessarily hold true on the sizes you're looking at.
> 
> ...



thx.... i agree and i know i am over-analyzing all this.... i cant wail till i get the bike and i can start riding again!!

i felt very "on top" of the xxs while riding it and that is another sense that i get that tells me it is close to the right size... on the tarmac i always felt like i was riding in the back seat of the bike, for a lack of a better description... but again, i dont want to go too small

i am leaning towards the xxs.... i will be going in later this week for fitting, looking fwd to the results


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

miker2012 said:


> thx.... i agree and *i know i am over-analyzing all this*.... i cant wail till i get the bike and i can start riding again!!
> 
> i felt very "on top" of the xxs while riding it and that is another sense that i get that tells me it is close to the right size... on the tarmac i always felt like i was riding in the back seat of the bike, for a lack of a better description... but again, i dont want to go too small
> 
> i am leaning towards the xxs.... i will be going in later this week for fitting, looking fwd to the results


I don't think you're over-analyzing. I think you just need some guidance on what constitutes a potential problem and what doesn't. Once you go to your fitting I think it'll all get sorted out. 

Keep us posted on your progress, and good luck at your fitting!


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Are these the only two bikes you've tested? Can you go elsewhere and try more?

The shop should be able to size you and not leave it to you to make such a major choice. Either they aren't adequate at fitting, or they just want to sell what is on the floor.

I've had the experience of being sold the wrong size bike. And had the experience of buying the right one. (Last week!).

I had to choose which bike I wanted in the first case, the shop took the liberty of choosing for me in the second. In both cases, the bikes were special ordered for me. Second shop told me after they'd ordered it that due to the calculations they took, I needed such and such a size. That worried me! But they were right. It's perfect. 

There was no reason for the first shop to sell me the wrong size. I believe they didn't care or bother to figure it out. It appears to me, in retrospect, that they just wanted to sell as many bikes as possible.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

aureliajulia said:


> Are these the only two bikes you've tested? Can you go elsewhere and try more?
> 
> The shop should be able to size you and not leave it to you to make such a major choice. *Either they aren't adequate at fitting, or they just want to sell what is on the floor.*


Obviously, one or both _can_ be true, but they aren't _necessarily_ true. 

In some instances, a cyclist IS between two sizes and the fitter discusses the compromises making either choice entails. Also, knowledgeable, experienced fitters understand that there are a number of variables that enter into the fit process, so they seek out input from the rider.

Ideally, IMO the fitting process is a cooperative effort and requires a pro-active effort on the part of the cyclist.


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## miker2012 (May 4, 2012)

aureliajulia said:


> Are these the only two bikes you've tested? Can you go elsewhere and try more?
> 
> The shop should be able to size you and not leave it to you to make such a major choice. Either they aren't adequate at fitting, or they just want to sell what is on the floor.
> 
> ...


thx... i had almost the exact same experience.... was sold a 52cm tarmac in the spring by a specialized dealer and the bike wasent even close to correct for me so i had to sell it, which is why i am buying this one... in that case, the salesman was inexperienced and clearly knew nothing about fitting

you are right, i wish the fitter would be a little more vocal and tell me what he thinks.... they are not selling me bikes on the floor, i told them to bring in the xxs from the distributor to fit me on it as they had none in the store.... i guess he didnt say much b/c the xs was a decent fit, although the fitter did note i was still reaching a tad (which is why he tilted the hoods towards me on the xs) and also told me i should have a bike with a 50cm top tube

ill let you know how the fitting goes... btw, i tried a couple other bikes (cannondale) but none in an xs size.... on the 48cm cannondale caad10 i felt stretched out and reaching for the last bit of the hoods on a 90mm stem..... this also lead me to believe that a 50cm TT would be my best bet


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## miker2012 (May 4, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> Obviously, one or both _can_ be true, but they aren't _necessarily_ true.
> 
> In some instances, a cyclist IS between two sizes and the fitter discusses the compromises making either choice entails. Also, knowledgeable, experienced fitters understand that there are a number of variables that enter into the fit process, so they seek out input from the rider.
> 
> Ideally, IMO the fitting process is a cooperative effort and requires a pro-active effort on the part of the cyclist.


you make a good point, the fitting process is definitely 2 way street.....unfortunately, i am really unable to give decent input to the fitter because of my lack of experience with how a proper road bike should feel.... while i have done lots of miles on the bike this year i am still really ignorant of what the angles should be, how my body should feel on the bike so i rely on a decent fitter to be very vocal and hopefully ask the right questions.... ill let u know how it turns out!!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

miker2012 said:


> you make a good point, the fitting process is definitely 2 way street.....unfortunately,* i am really unable to give decent input to the fitter because of my lack of experience with how a proper road bike should feel.*... while i have done lots of miles on the bike this year i am still really ignorant of what the angles should be, how my body should feel on the bike so i rely on a decent fitter to be very vocal and hopefully ask the right questions.... ill let u know how it turns out!!


You may not have an intimate knowledge of bike geo or recognize the nuances of a good bike fit, but if you look back in your posts you frequently critique your Tarmacs fit and how you've felt on some more recent test rides. 

And really, a good bike fit is nothing more than being comfortable on the bike. The absence of pain/ discomfort is about as good as it gets. And once that's attained, you'll be more efficient on the bike and perform better. 

Comfort equates to efficiency equates to performance. 

Keep the faith. You'll do fine.


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

miker2012 said:


> thx... i had almost the exact same experience.... was sold a 52cm tarmac in the spring by a specialized dealer and the bike wasent even close to correct for me so i had to sell it, which is why i am buying this one... in that case, the salesman was inexperienced and clearly knew nothing about fitting
> 
> you are right, i wish the fitter would be a little more vocal and tell me what he thinks.... they are not selling me bikes on the floor, i told them to bring in the xxs from the distributor to fit me on it as they had none in the store.... i guess he didnt say much b/c the xs was a decent fit, although the fitter did note i was still reaching a tad (which is why he tilted the hoods towards me on the xs) and also told me i should have a bike with a 50cm top tube
> 
> ill let you know how the fitting goes... btw, i tried a couple other bikes (cannondale) but none in an xs size.... on the 48cm cannondale caad10 i felt stretched out and reaching for the last bit of the hoods on a 90mm stem..... this also lead me to believe that a 50cm TT would be my best bet


I drove over 4 hours to try a shop that might work. I could have bought my bike at a shop about an hour away, but wasn't happy with them. I ended up on a bike a size up from what the local shop wanted to sell me. It did cost more, but was worth it. 

Honestly, it sounds like you should find a better shop.

Do you have a short reach? A bike with a compact top tube might fit better. There are body machines that can take your exact measurements, and give you the numbers of what would fit before you even consider which bike to get. I think I'd try to figure out how to get your correct measurements before doing anything else.


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

We're about the same size. I recently bought a new Masi Evo in a 47cm. (The smallest size they make.) It fits better than any road bike I've ever ridden.

Check out the specs on their site and see if they come close to what you are looking at. Granted we may have slightly different measurements in reach, etc. But it may help zero in a size for you.


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## ParadigmDawg (Aug 2, 2012)

We just went through about a million bikes trying to find one for my wife. I have a couple of shops that have always treated me right so we tried them first. After trying all these bikes and my wife almost giving up and saying she would just forget road biking and stay on her MTB, I said lets drop by one more store that has been here for years but I have never tried. We got there right at closing, they said "come on in" and locked the doors behind us. We told them what we had been through and they said "lets just start all over". They spent about 1.5 hours fitting her and then laid out the options. The Giant Avail 1 was what she liked the best but they didn't have the black and white one that she wanted. They called Giant and they were all out too. They said they could pull some strings and get one for her if we would just have a little patience. He located one in CA the next day and said he would have it delivered and built up within 10 days. We got it 6 days later and once again, we show up at closing and they stay another 1.5 hours late doing her final fitting.

I guess the moral to the story is that there are some great shops out there and it may not be the one you think it is. Keep in mind that we were buying a lower end bike. The time, effort and CS that I saw though this process has changed my thoughts on my favorite shop. I will buy my next bike from there when the time comes. In the end, my 5'3", long leg, short torso, short armed wife has a bike that fits her like a glove and I have a new shop.


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