# Carlos Sastre interview



## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I had never considered the possibility the guy could be clean based on the teams he rode on but this makes a fairly reasonable case for it. Unlike a lot of claims of innocence, it's a reasonable interpretation of the facts as we know them.
Carlos Sastre Exclusive: The Forgotten Tour De France Winner | Cyclingnews.com


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Didn't this forum hate Sastre up until last year?


----------



## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

I got lucky and predicted that Sastre would win the Tour in 2008.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/1618491-post25.html

His win in some way lacked panache as the others, but I guess that's what a clean rider looks like.

Carlos is truly a humble champion and I respect him.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

It is very well written.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Didn't this forum hate Sastre up until last year?


.....No


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> .....No


Selective memory. This forum was pretty brutal with him and called him a has-been after the '09 TdF.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Selective memory. This forum was pretty brutal with him and called him a has-been after the '09 TdF.


Selective memory. Don't confuse a few posters with the views of the entire forum

Sastre = classy - Road Bike, Cycling Forums

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/pro-cycling-race-discussion/carlos-sastre-class-act-178892.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/pro-cycling-race-discussion/awesome-sastre-quote-179485.html


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Selective memory. Don't confuse a few posters with the views of the entire forum
> 
> Sastre = classy - Road Bike, Cycling Forums
> 
> ...


After '09, this FORUM was much more harsh and routinely used whiny has-been to describe him. Find some '10 threads and classy wasn't being used to describe him.


----------



## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

spade2you said:


> After '09, this FORUM was much more harsh and routinely used whiny has-been to describe him. Find some '10 threads and classy wasn't being used to describe him.



Someone's still butthurt about Lance, aren't they?


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rufus said:


> Someone's still butthurt about Lance, aren't they?


...and I've been reported for much less. 

Saying I'm "butthurt" would imply I have feelings about racers, which couldn't be further from the truth. I'll get reported for this, but RBR is full of emotional and fairweather fans. I have zero feelings for Sastre, but this forum was very harsh on Sastre after the '09 TdF. The forum tends to care more about how jerseys look and who they'd want to go on a man date with.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> ...and I've been reported for much less.
> 
> Saying I'm "butthurt" would imply I have feelings about racers, which couldn't be further from the truth. I'll get reported for this, but RBR is full of emotional and fairweather fans. I have zero feelings for Sastre, but this forum was very harsh on Sastre after the '09 TdF. The forum tends to care more about how jerseys look and who they'd want to go on a man date with.


Fairweather fans? Really? 

Saw my first Grand Tour live 30 years ago. Have raced my bike all over the world for decades. Many of those guys you read about in magazines are guys I have been friends with for years. I am not going anywhere, nor are any of the other long time fans who you bait and insult daily. 

You may have just started following the sport a few years ago but do not assume that everyone else did the same.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Fairweather fans? Really?
> 
> Saw my first Grand Tour live 30 years ago. Have raced my bike all over the world for decades. Many of those guys you read about in magazines are guys I have been friends with for years. I am not going anywhere, nor are any of the other long time fans who you bait and insult daily.
> 
> You may have just started following the sport a few years ago but do not assume that everyone else did the same.


I do apologize for not having those cable channels during high school, no cable during college, and no free time while I was working on my doctorate. I am indeed a horrible person and fairweather fan.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I do apologize for not having those cable channels during high school, no cable during college, and no free time while I was working on my doctorate. I am indeed a horrible person and fairweather fan.


Yet this lack of knowledge does not stop you from writing blanket insults of those who have been involved in the sport for years......


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Yet this lack of knowledge does not stop you from writing blanket insults of those who have been involved in the sport for years......


Lack of knowledge? You seem to forget that most races can be found online or in DVD form, which are the backbone of my base training. At ~12 hours a week, I see some old races. Just a few. 

I was a member when Sastre became a "has-been who was gifted the '08 TdF". Despite me not being here long enough or being able to follow cycling long enough for your satisfaction, fanboyism is nothing new. Same thing happens constantly with Cuddles. He's a hack. He's amazing. He's a hack again. Pointless.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Lack of knowledge? You seem to forget that most races can be found online or in DVD form, which are the backbone of my base training. At ~12 hours a week, I see some old races. Just a few.
> 
> I was a member when Sastre became a "has-been who was gifted the '08 TdF". Despite me not being here long enough or being able to follow cycling long enough for your satisfaction, fanboyism is nothing new. Same thing happens constantly with Cuddles. He's a hack. He's amazing. He's a hack again. Pointless.


Perspective...... You confusing a handful of posts with the sentiment of thousands of members


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Perspective...... You confusing a handful of posts with the sentiment of thousands of members


The same members who dominate the early seasons pondering which team jerseys look good and which look ugly?


----------



## cantride55 (Sep 19, 2008)

He was just another pro rider until the dvd "overcoming" introduced me to Sastre, the individual. Over the years, Carlos seemed to move to the left anytime the spotlight came his way. It's sad to say that every rider during that period will have some doubt attached to their finishes, and no one will know for sure if he rode clean throughtout his career, but for me, he is one who deserves the benefit of doubt. I will always remember Sastre's ride on stage 17 of the 2009 Tour chasing the breakaway in the rain, solo. That sum's up his career, it seemed that mangement didn't support him (the breakaway) and the masses didn't acknowledge him (the peloton). So he did what he did best, ride alone, up hill, all the way.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*



rufus said:


> Someone's still butthurt about Lance, aren't they?


Not every doping thread has to be derailed to Lance- stay on point please.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

On the other side, look at _who_ he raced for and when, how much doping went on on those teams. Look at _when_ he raced, and how much EPO was in the field. And _how_ he raced, he was at the front over and over again. Not like doubts are in any way unreasonable.


----------



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> On the other side, look at _who_ he raced for and when, how much doping went on on those teams. Look at _when_ he raced, and how much EPO was in the field. And _how_ he raced, he was at the front over and over again. Not like doubts are in any way unreasonable.


Connecting The Dots | Cyclingnews.com

In addition to Xavier there is Marco Pinotti. Lambre, SD, T-Mobile....... Clean


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> On the other side, look at _who_ he raced for and when, how much doping went on on those teams. Look at _when_ he raced, and how much EPO was in the field. And _how_ he raced, he was at the front over and over again. Not like doubts are in any way unreasonable.


Without a doubt. He _might_ have been clean or at one point, but I'm not going to put much thought into it or lose any sleep over it. I find it interesting that '08, '98, and '88 were basically won by climbers.


----------



## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I remember making a bit of a "tribute" thread upon his retirement. He was a pretty humble guy, and thought he was clean at least for his TDF. He arguably won the 2008 just off strategy and not physical dominance - not to mention Contador was out.


----------



## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Whether he doped or not, it's interesting to ponder that there may have been more riders than we thought who had the character, balls, and talent to stick it out in a crooked game. I thought his reply to the school kid's question was probably the most compelling part, since it wasn't the typical shallow liar's comeback.


----------



## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> On the other side, look at _who_ he raced for and when, how much doping went on on those teams. Look at _when_ he raced, and how much EPO was in the field. And _how_ he raced, he was at the front over and over again. Not like doubts are in any way unreasonable.


What Coolhand said.
Just because Carlos doesn't get along w/ authority figures and likes to train on his own certainly doesn't equal clean.


----------



## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

I purchased my Cervelo after watching Sastre and the Cervelo CSC team. I admit it.


----------



## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

On the other hand: Just that you rode for Riis doesn't mean you doped (while on his team).


----------



## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

kbwh said:


> On the other hand: Just that you rode for Riis doesn't mean you doped (while on his team).


The same can be said about riding for Manolo Saiz! If it is indeed true, that's what is surprising: the tiered, segregated world of pro cycling. 

If we can't condemn riders to be guilty by association, what will we do in The Doping Forum? :-D


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

orange_julius said:


> If we can't condemn riders to be guilty by association, what will we do in The Doping Forum? :-D


Yes, indeed. Lots of guilt by assocuation here - but kind of to be expected given the nature of this forum, no?

Going back to the origional point - I, like many others here wavered on Sastre during the latter part of his career. I think sometimes we have to wait and see more - reflect on a complete career, but we (myself included) naturally get caught up in the current season's results and draw long-term conclusions from that. Sastre and Cadel have certainly fallen into that catagory as other posters have pointed out.

It is perhaps too early to say what Sastre's final legacy will look like - but it's looking pretty good to me at the moment.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

The funny thing about Sastre is that his performance totally collapsed as the sport got cleaner. It's like he won the Tour, decided he was not going to risk it anymore, had one more somewhat decent grand tour in the afterglow, then coasted to retirement.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> The funny thing about Sastre is that his performance totally collapsed as the sport got cleaner. It's like he won the Tour, decided he was not going to risk it anymore, had one more somewhat decent grand tour in the afterglow, then coasted to retirement.


3 GTs in one year with 2 top 10 finishes is coasting? damn I'd hate to be around when you put the hammer down. 
which of his 2 top 3 finishes after is win is not somewhat decent by the way?


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

trailrunner68 said:


> The funny thing about Sastre is that his performance totally collapsed as the sport got cleaner. It's like he won the Tour, decided he was not going to risk it anymore, had one more somewhat decent grand tour in the afterglow, then coasted to retirement.



I would hardly say that that year was really all that cleaner, take a look at who won the GTs that year (Menchov Conti and Valverde of those 3 two served suspensions) also that the year Pellizotti had his results in the Giro and the tour voided.

Hard to know what to think.

I always liked Sastre mainly because he was just sort of a no BS guy and great rider. I would like to think its possible he was clean, but who knows.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> The funny thing about Sastre is that his performance totally collapsed as the sport got cleaner. It's like he won the Tour, decided he was not going to risk it anymore, had one more somewhat decent grand tour in the afterglow, then coasted to retirement.


Perhaps he just got older and couldn't keep up? :idea:

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.


----------



## Cross_Reference (Nov 27, 2012)

Carlos Sastre is a hero of mine just going by how he speaks - he comes across as a smart, on-the-ball guy who considers his choice of words. The Cervelo Test Team videos where they would interview him periodically alongside other team-mates were a fantastic insight into his mind...


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> 3 GTs in one year with 2 top 10 finishes is coasting? damn I'd hate to be around when you put the hammer down.
> which of his 2 top 3 finishes after is win is not somewhat decent by the way?


He was 16th at the Tour in 2009. In 2010 he was 20th. In 2010 Geox was not invited to the Tour but Sastre only managed 30th at the Giro and 20th at the Vuelta. His performance plummeted. He was never a serious contender after the 2009 Giro. 

During this time Vaughters says that the peloton blood values show the sport was cleaning up and largely clean in the 2010. There are statements from several Garmin people this year saying that four years ago they did not think it was possible to win a grand tour clean. They are using that and Ryder's win as a sign of how much the sport has changed since 2008. The implication is that they do not think Sastre won clean.

If Sastre was clean and still held his own against dopers through the bulk of his career then he should have been fired up to race against riders on equal terms despite being at the end of his career. Instead of riding all three GTs, he should have been targeting a win in one.

The 2009 Giro smells bad all around. He placed fourth with Menchov DiLuca, Pelizotti, Leipheimer, Rogers, Basso, and Garzelli in the top ten. It was a dopers' paradise but he won two stages.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> He was 16th at the Tour in 2009. In 2010 he was 20th. In 2010 Geox was not invited to the Tour but Sastre only managed 30th at the Giro and 20th at the Vuelta. His performance plummeted. He was never a serious contender after the 2009 Giro.


2009: 3 in the giro. 2010: 8 in the giro and in the vuelta. 
you are thinking of 2011. 
" had one more somewhat decent grand tour in the afterglow, then coasted to retirement."
Apparently third place is somewhat decent and 8th is coasting.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> 2009: 3 in the giro. 2010: 8 in the giro and in the vuelta.
> you are thinking of 2011.
> " had one more somewhat decent grand tour in the afterglow, then coasted to retirement."
> Apparently third place is somewhat decent and 8th is coasting.


Oh, he had two more GTs in the afterglow, including the one right after the 2008 Tour and the Giro after that. Riis' junk must have long half life.

Barely breaking the top ten in the Giro and Vuelta is hardling killing it. Marco Pinotti was 9th in the 2010 Giro. Marco Pinotti! You know how both got their place in the top ten? A huge break of fifty or sixty riders took twenty minutes from the leaders. It was a classic situation of the leaders wanting a rest, giving the okay for a stage to be won in a break, and people jumping in because they knew the break was going to the line. The leaders' teams did not keep track of how many people had rushed in to grab the free beer and an uncontrollable situation developed. Going mano-a-mano, Sastre was getting killed.

And in the 2010 Vuelta, Sastre's place was bracketed by Nicolas Roche and Tommy D. Not exactly top level competition.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> Oh, he had two more GTs in the afterglow, including the one right after the 2008 Tour and the Giro after that. Riis' junk must have long half life.
> .


so he did not collapse? ok, carry on.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> so he did not collapse? ok, carry on.


He certainly did. He was a pale shadow of what he was. The sport got cleaner and he performed worse. It is pretty plain what the deal was with him.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> He certainly did. He was a pale shadow of what he was. The sport got cleaner and he performed worse. It is pretty plain what the deal was with him.


and that's the crux. results be damned it has to fit your agenda. that he was 36 in 2011 does not matter either. what you conveniently seem to forget is that he was not that strong the year he won the tour either. with three candidates for the win he was the one that was let go and gained the advantage. but again that does not fit into the picture. 
one has to be more than naive to think a saiz boy later under riis was clean during his career but your story just does not hang together.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> He certainly did. He was a pale shadow of what he was. The sport got cleaner and he performed worse. It is pretty plain what the deal was with him.


Or, the sport appeared to be getting cleaner and Carlito just got older?


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

LostViking said:


> Or, the sport appeared to be getting cleaner and Carlito just got older?


well clearly he only got older because he stopped doping  
yes big surprise at 36 he was getting at the end of the line.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> one has to be more than naive to think a saiz boy later under riis was clean during his career but your story just does not hang together.


Much like you using an 8th in the Giro that was the result of a fifty man break while forgetting that he was getting killed by the leaders before that. Or how about the 2010 Vuelta when he struggled to keep ahead of a sick Tom Danielson. The climber that was last seen in the 2009 Giro never reappeared. People can attribute it to age, but it was mighty suspicious that he could not take advantage of the peloton cleaning up.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> Much like you using an 8th in the Giro that was the result of a fifty man break while forgetting that he was getting killed by the leaders before that. Or how about the 2010 Vuelta when he struggled to keep ahead of a sick Tom Danielson. The climber that was last seen in the 2009 Giro never reappeared. People can attribute it to age, but it was mighty suspicious that he could not take advantage of the peloton cleaning up.


maybe sastre should play the lottery. he sure seems lucky that it all just fell out so despite him coasting to retirement everyone else just fell apart so he ended in top 10. again and again.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Hard to find guys from those times who one has the least confidence were not dopers - until proven otherwise, Carlito and a few others still seem to have been clean and unless there is evidence a la that which downed Lance I will hold that Carlito was clean.

I know, in this forum, it is de rigour for everyone - even Carlito's grandmother - to be guilty of doping until proven otherwise. 
This is especially true of the guilty-by-association crew who believe that if you rode on a team in which one or more riders have a one point been caught doping - then you too "obviously" doped as well. While it appears doping was rife and still remains common in the Pro peleton - that does not prove that everyone doped. It was a choice. Like Hamilton's claim that he was introduced to Fuentes by Riis - that may be so, but did Riis tell Hamilton "dope or you're out" - does not seem so - this was a choice Hamilton made. 
Is it not concievable that some riders, including Sastre, were presented with that same choice and, for whatever reason, "just said no"?


----------



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

LostViking said:


> Hard to find guys from those times who one has the least confidence were not dopers - until proven otherwise, Carlito and a few others still seem to have been clean and unless there is evidence a la that which downed Lance I will hold that Carlito was clean.
> 
> I know, in this forum, it is de rigour for everyone - even Carlito's grandmother - to be guilty of doping until proven otherwise.
> This is especially true of the guilty-by-association crew who believe that if you rode on a team in which one or more riders have a one point been caught doping - then you too "obviously" doped as well. While it appears doping was rife and still remains common in the Pro peleton - that does not prove that everyone doped. It was a choice. Like Hamilton's claim that he was introduced to Fuentes by Riis - that may be so, but did Riis tell Hamilton "dope or you're out" - does not seem so - this was a choice Hamilton made.
> Is it not concievable that some riders, including Sastre, were presented with that same choice and, for whatever reason, "just said no"?


It's possible LV (and I have went back and forth on this one in my head like it sounds like you are), but, if we accept that as fact, how do we explain the success they had against competitors that were clearly doping? How are clean riders winning and getting good results in a field that is doped up? That's the issue I can't get past and I have kind of setteled on thinking that if you were a top rider during that era, you were likely doping to keep pace and get those results.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

LostViking said:


> Is it not concievable that some riders, including Sastre, were presented with that same choice and, for whatever reason, "just said no"?


sure. 
as a young rider under saiz 
then under riis 
then under gianetti

it's possible. 

now if you'll excuse me, I have to check if Scarlett Johansson sneaked in and crawled into my bed. 
it's possible.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> sure.
> as a young rider under saiz
> then under riis
> then under gianetti
> ...


I'd bet on EPO before Scarlett Johansson, not that I'm losing sleep over Sastre.

It's still possible that he could win the '09 Giro some day.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

den bakker said:


> now if you'll excuse me, I have to check if Scarlett Johansson sneaked in and crawled into my bed.
> it's possible.


Cynic! 

Again, guilty by association. 
Trust me, I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I do get your point that the probability that he doped is not in his favor. 
I also get the point that he was keeping up with a field of leading cyclists who have been proven to have doped. Perhaps his natural abilities were such that the dopers needed to dope to keep up with him and those like him? As doping decreased, his chances of winning improved - unfortunetly, father time can be held off - but never denied.

I don't know the answer here, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
I didn't like LA, but didn't write him off as a doper until the USADA report.

P.S. - Keep us updated on the Scarlett Johansson thing! :thumbsup:


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

LostViking said:


> Cynic!
> 
> Again, guilty by association.
> Trust me, I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I do get your point that the probability that he doped is not in his favor.
> ...


it's one thing his results got worse as he got older but now it has to get worse at such a rate to also compensate for the competition being less doped in the twilight of his career? seems like we have missed out on the combined Merckx/Coppi. Damn.


----------



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

den bakker said:


> it's one thing his results got worse as he got older but now it has to get worse at such a rate to also compensate for the competition being less doped in the twilight of his career? seems like we have missed out on the combined Merckx/Coppi. Damn.


Ha! Thanks for misunderstanding me correctly!


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

LostViking said:


> Cynic!
> 
> Again, guilty by association.
> Trust me, I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I do get your point that the probability that he doped is not in his favor.
> ...


Ridiculous. The fact that you could not figure out the stench of Armstrong until the you were smacked upside the head with a dead fish says everything about your critical thinking skills.

It is not guilt by association. EPO and blood transfusions have very large effects on performance. At the elite level, where differences between riders are a few percent, the advantage of blood vector doping overwhelms those differences. To believe that anyone was competing clean at a GT, you would have to believe that they were as much as 15% better than everyone else. That is ludicrous.

Read Hamilton's book. Without dope he was 94th at the Tour. With it he was top five.


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> it's one thing his results got worse as he got older but now it has to get worse at such a rate to also compensate for the competition being less doped in the twilight of his career? seems like we have missed out on the combined Merckx/Coppi. Damn.


Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> Thanks for proving my point.


the point that he collapsed on the podium in 2009 or one of the numerous modifications since then?


----------



## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

den bakker said:


> the point that he collapsed on the podium in 2009 or one of the numerous modifications since then?


If you want to believe that getting into the top ten of the Giro because a bizarre fifty man break luckily happened after he failed miserably against the competition is a sign of a rider who is still at the top of his game then be my guest. I guess Francois Simon was a top GT rider also.


----------



## biker jk (Dec 5, 2012)

Sastre climbed Alpe d'Huez in 2008 in a time of 39 min 31 sec (the 17th fastest accent, note that only 13 riders have gone below 40 min) just 1 sec behind the time of Riis in 1995 (Mr 60% haematocrit). He was a doper.


----------

