# Country of manufacture



## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

Can someone let me know if the following is true. All Pinarello bikes except the Prince are made in Taiwan? I have been told they are all designed in Italy but manufactured in Taiwan with the execption of the Prince. Thanks.


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## Getoutandride (Sep 1, 2008)

i have also heard the same, and unfortunately i believe it, the fact of the matter is the Taiwanese have mastered composite technology, now having said that i know where your coming from and i feel the same.

I would much rather an american made composite frame maybe not for strength reasons but for the sheer factor that brands such as pinarello are luxury, top of their class bikes - for example compare it to cars, would you buy a korean made ferrari? or a japanese made bently? 

the higher prince model may be made in italy at huge expense, but you will find most frames will be made in taiwan, alongside Giants, treks ect ect and are then shipped to italy where they are painted 

that painting is what earns the bikes that little 'made in italy' label, it is really sad i would love a true italian frame


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

All aluminum and carbon fiber Pinarello bicycles are made in Taiwan and have been for many years. The only possible exception is the Dogma. Some frames are finished in Italy.
Italy's loose trade laws allow unscrupulous Italian bicycle companies to claim made in Italy when the majority of the labor was done in another nation. A good example would be Pinarello's aluminum frames with carbon frames. The frames where welded in Taiwan, the stays where molded in Taiwan then the stays where bonded to the frame in Italy. The frame was then painted and a made in Italy tag is placed on the bicycle. Some variation of the above takes place with almost all the high end Italian bicycles. 
For all intents and purposes, Italy, or any European nation doesn't really produce high end bicycles anymore, especially carbon fiber frames. Aside from a few small builders and a couple of top end Colnago frames all of the Italian brands have moved production overseas. Its very ironic becuase Italy produces tons of bicycles every year, but most of them are junk-a-lunka huffy type bikes. 
Don't be alarmed though, Taiwan is where the most innovative and highest quality bicycles are produced.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*other bikes*



T-Dog said:


> Can someone let me know if the following is true. All Pinarello bikes except the Prince are made in Taiwan? I have been told they are all designed in Italy but manufactured in Taiwan with the execption of the Prince. Thanks.


And for other bikes http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328


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## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

Rubber Lizard said:


> All aluminum and carbon fiber Pinarello bicycles are made in Taiwan and have been for many years. The only possible exception is the Dogma. Some frames are finished in Italy.
> Italy's loose trade laws allow unscrupulous Italian bicycle companies to claim made in Italy when the majority of the labor was done in another nation. A good example would be Pinarello's aluminum frames with carbon frames. The frames where welded in Taiwan, the stays where molded in Taiwan then the stays where bonded to the frame in Italy. The frame was then painted and a made in Italy tag is placed on the bicycle. Some variation of the above takes place with almost all the high end Italian bicycles.
> For all intents and purposes, Italy, or any European nation doesn't really produce high end bicycles anymore, especially carbon fiber frames. Aside from a few small builders and a couple of top end Colnago frames all of the Italian brands have moved production overseas. Its very ironic becuase Italy produces tons of bicycles every year, but most of them are junk-a-lunka huffy type bikes.
> Don't be alarmed though, Taiwan is where the most innovative and highest quality bicycles are produced.


But isn't the Prince still 100% made in Italy?


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

T-Dog said:


> But isn't the Prince still 100% made in Italy?


Nope, that frame is made in Taiwan. All Pinarello frames are, see my above post for how they do it. Its done with their carbon frames, their aluminum frames and probably their magnesium frams now too.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

The ole Operas and I think the first year of the Paris Carbon were 'made in Italy' but Pinarello hasn't been making frames from scratch in Italy for awhile now. The magnesium Dogma (if they are still making them) was made in Italy due to the hassle with welding it.

There are very few things, if any, still made in Italy anymore. Cinelli is making all their RAM bars in the Far East. Deda quit making stuff there 3 years ago. Yet prices have not dropped, e.g, still $400 for their Campione bar.


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## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

I checked with the importer in Australia and they said the Prince is still fully manufactured in Italy.


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

T-Dog said:


> I checked with the importer in Australia and they said the Prince is still fully manufactured in Italy.


It could be made in Italy but I can pretty much assure you that it isn't made in Italy. Here is why. 
First off, its a monocoque frame. Monocoque frames are made in Taiwan. Italian companies and the Italian bicycle subcontracters don't really have the knowledge, the tooling or the experience to make a monocoque frame of the caliber of the Prince. Sorry to have to say this, but Italian carbon fiber bicycle technology, and aluminum as well is a few generations behind Taiwans bicycle technology. And they get further behind in carbon technology because all the Italian companies have moved production overseas. The best monocoque frames come out of Taiwan. 

Second, Pinarello has a very close relationship with a certain Taiwan bicycle company that assists in the design and development of their bicycles. In all honesty a company like Pinarello doesn't have the capability to create and design a carbon fiber bicycle on their own. Few companies do. It wouldn't make sense for Pinarello to abandon their relationship with said subcontracter for one frame to be made in Italy. Not to mention the prohibitive cost associated with producing a monocoque frame in Italy. 

People seem to love the idea that their Italian frame was lovingly made by a crusty old man with a brazing torch in one hand and a bottle of vino in the other. Those days are long gone. Italy moved all of its high end bicycle production overseas long ago. But the artistan bicycle production that Italy is known for is a great marketing tool. Pinarello's website is covered with Italian flags and emphasizes Italian craftsmanship despite having their frames welded or molded overseas for many years. Pinarello is especially deceptive in their marketing and are very adamant about being Italian made, when they really aren't.
There are very few things, bicycle related that are made 100% in Italy anymore. Even the great Campy moved all their production out of Italy a few years ago. It is sad but true. 

So in short,your Prince was painted and finished in Italy, but I can pretty much guarantee you that it wasn't molded in Italy.


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## tjjm36m3 (Mar 4, 2008)

A friend of mine took a tour of the Pinarello factory in Treviso when he was there for the Granfondo last month. They told him the Prince was made in Taiwan and get sent to Treviso for the paint and finishing touches. Even the tour guy said "pinarello doesn't have the manufacturing technology to make such a frame, but we can certainly design it."


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

Rubber Lizard said:


> There are very few things, bicycle related that are made 100% in Italy anymore. Even the great Campy moved all their production out of Italy a few years ago. It is sad but true.


Campy is making their stuff in Romania. One reason I bought a lot of Campy stuff from Performance back around 2 years ago was that I knew that Campy stuff was still being made in Italy (circa 2004-2005).

I'm also glad I got my Colnago C50 in 2005; for sure they were still being made in Italy then.

As for currently, supposedly the C50 is still made in Italy and most the DeRosa frames, if you insist on that. I can believe the C50 since it's a lugged construction which Colnago developed, but I somewhat question the DeRosas since those are monocoque frames.


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## rowboy (May 31, 2004)

Faced that same dilema - wanting to stay with a Pinarello but for the premium price and no certain guarantee that I was getting what I paid for (i.e. design AND built in Italy) I decided to go with a TIME instead.

For the premium you're paying with either frame - just the peice of mind that not only are you getting the best carbon on the road but also the guarantee that I was getting what I paid for - a European designed AND built frame.

I still have my old Pinarello frame (and love it - but am torn if I should keep it or not).

Not that there's anything WRONG with Asian made frames - far from it - but when the price you pay is FACTORED into the assumption the frame was NOT made in Asia, when indeed a portion (or the majority) of it WAS...then it pays to do your research.


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## Sacke (May 23, 2007)

*The whole discussion about country of origin...*

I have lived in France now for about 5 months and the discussion about manufacturing country is just about nonexistant... Does it really matter if the bike is made in Italy or not? Is the issue really that hot in the US? 

Personally the picture of the old crusty man with a torch in his hand is not the picture that I have of Italian craftmanship. I would rather have a hard working, high moral, Taiwanese worker assemble my 3500 € frame, than some Italian youngster who despises his job because it is in a factory... Now, I realize that anyone working in a Pinarello factory probably takes as much pride in his work as a factory worker assembling Ferraris in Modena. 

In any case, the Pinarello Prince is still the hottest frame out there and out the bikes that I have owned, definitely the one that turns most heads. (Yes, it counts, because when buying a new bike, the Pinarello Prince is easy to sell for big €€€) The marketing campaign has indeed been extremely successful and Pinarello beat their previous sales records for a single model by nearly 400%.

I sold my 2008 Prince for a price that practically finances the purchase of a 2009 Prince... At the end of next summer, I hope the 2009 Prince will be as easy to sell, and after having seen the other manufacturers' 2009 models, it seems it wont be a problem. 

Pinarello = Adrenalina Italiana, regardless of country of origin.


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## crewman (Jan 29, 2004)

*One little Item of Correction*

tjjm36m3: If Your friend was at the factory he would have also learned that the prince is NOT a full monocoque. The Prince along with all the other carbon frames have only a monocoque main triangle and Bonded rear stays. This is for all the 2009 Pinarello line up.


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## tjjm36m3 (Mar 4, 2008)

crewman said:


> tjjm36m3: If Your friend was at the factory he would have also learned that the prince is NOT a full monocoque. The Prince along with all the other carbon frames have only a monocoque main triangle and Bonded rear stays. This is for all the 2009 Pinarello line up.



yeahhhh.... don't think I said the prince was a full monocoque


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## fastbluebike (Aug 13, 2005)

T-Dog said:


> Can someone let me know if the following is true. All Pinarello bikes except the Prince are made in Taiwan? I have been told they are all designed in Italy but manufactured in Taiwan with the execption of the Prince. Thanks.


Sadly even the Frame of the Prince is made in the "Far East"that is a Fact. I E Mailed Pinarello in Italy and after 3 Days they responded the Raw frame was made in the Far East but all the rest of the finish work done in Italy. I have a Dogma FP I bought in Treviso in 05 from Giovanni himself,what a thrill. They are beautiful bikes but I can not spend 5 grand on a prince. I probably wilk get a Roubaix SL 2 and record and shamal it for the price of the Prince Frame. The Frames coming out of Asia are in no way a step down it's just hard to part with that much cash for a not 100% piece of Italian art. I am a 47 year old Clydesdale who loves to ride nice bikes a lot. Remember It is what You love not what someone else thinks you should love to ride. The only great bike is one that gets Ridden Out!


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## brentster (Jul 12, 2007)

Rubber Lizard, you sure do seem to know your stuff.


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## jpaine (May 13, 2007)

All the carbon is Japanese, rolled in Taiwan, assembled, shipped to Italy for final touches and painting....

Anyway you slice it, they are still awesome bikes. 

Cervelo is the same...Canadian bikes by design, however fully manufactured in Taiwan.


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## Dogma Dave (Apr 4, 2008)

Rubber Lizard said:


> Nope, that frame is made in Taiwan. All Pinarello frames are, see my above post for how they do it. Its done with their carbon frames, their aluminum frames and probably their magnesium frams now too.


Not correct


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## brentster (Jul 12, 2007)

Dogma Dave said:


> Not correct



That's a very informative post. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:


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## Dogma Dave (Apr 4, 2008)

brentster said:


> That's a very informative post. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:


No problem my friend. The previous poster stated that all Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan. I stated that this was not correct, based not on heresay but on the information contained on the current Pinarello website:

_"The Dogma remains the great pride of Pinarello, with the Made in Italy mark and our "Fatta da Pinarello" emblem.
An extraordinary goal achieved through hard work and sacrifice, the Dogma is still handmade in Treviso from the raw tubes until the paint job and final assembly."_

No mention of Taiwan there, unless of course I have missed something.


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## brentster (Jul 12, 2007)

Dogma Dave said:


> No problem my friend. The previous poster stated that all Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan. I stated that this was not correct, based not on heresay but on the information contained on the current Pinarello website:
> 
> _"The Dogma remains the great pride of Pinarello, with the Made in Italy mark and our "Fatta da Pinarello" emblem.
> An extraordinary goal achieved through hard work and sacrifice, the Dogma is still handmade in Treviso from the raw tubes until the paint job and final assembly."_
> ...


Touche


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

If you had read Rubber Lizard's first post :idea: ... "All aluminum and carbon fiber Pinarello bicycles are made in Taiwan and have been for many years. The only possible exception is the Dogma. Some frames are finished in Italy."


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## Dogma Dave (Apr 4, 2008)

Bianchi67 said:


> If you had read Rubber Lizard's first post :idea: ... "All aluminum and carbon fiber Pinarello bicycles are made in Taiwan and have been for many years. The only possible exception is the Dogma. Some frames are finished in Italy."


I read all the posts in the thread in the order they were posted and, as you can see if you do the same, my response was to RL's most recent post, which says: 

_"Nope, that frame is made in Taiwan. All Pinarello frames are, see my above post for how they do it. Its done with their carbon frames, their aluminum frames and probably their magnesium frams now too."_

I am not questioning anyone's parentage here. Just pointing out that this particular sweeping statement is wrong.


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

I'm so honored of all the arguing on the semantics of one of my poorly written late night posts. 
I'll throw in a poorly written early morning post too. Yup, pretty sure the Dogma is made in Italy. Magnesium is a ***** to work with and Pinarello was really the first company to spend the coin to figure out how to do magnesium right. 
Dogma Dave says its Pinarello's pride and joy and it probably should be. The reason I wasn't sure if the Dogma was still made in Italy was because Pinarello loves to play the switcharoo game with country of origin. There are facilities in Taiwan that are quite capable of producing a magnesium frame now and Italy's loose trade laws allow those to be labeled as Italian. But I'll take Dogma Dave's word thats it made in Italy, 100%. 
Tell me Dogma Dave, do you have a Dogma?


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

it's not semantics if it's poorly written. it's just poorly written.


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

Rubber Lizard said:


> Sorry to have to say this, but Italian carbon fiber bicycle technology, and aluminum as well is a few generations behind Taiwans bicycle technology. And they get further behind in carbon technology because all the Italian companies have moved production overseas.



This is true of most of Italy's manufacturing sector. Italy was once at the avant-garde of manufacturing technology and not just in the bicycle industry, today its strength lies solely in design.


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## Dogma Dave (Apr 4, 2008)

Rubber Lizard said:


> .
> Tell me Dogma Dave, do you have a Dogma?


2 or 3


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## brentster (Jul 12, 2007)

Italianrider76 said:


> This is true of most of Italy's manufacturing sector. Italy was once at the avant-garde of manufacturing technology and not just in the bicycle industry, *today its strength lies solely in design*.


And tourism!! One of the most fabulous places on the planet to visit.:thumbsup:


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## BluRooster (Sep 11, 2006)

http://www.fondriestbici.com/eng/home.html

So is this really made in Italy? None of their other bikes have the label on their webpages


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

BluRooster said:


> http://www.fondriestbici.com/eng/home.html
> 
> So is this really made in Italy? None of their other bikes have the label on their webpages


It could very well be made in Italy. The fact that some level of customization is offered indicates that it is not a monocoque frame but some sort of lugged carbon frame. 
Italian bicycle manufacturers lack the knowledge and tooling to produce a high end monocoque frame, but not high end lugged carbon frames.


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## ROLEX (Jun 16, 2008)

OK Guys, where do you really want your bike to be manufactured in Italy who's factories are still in the 1950's with very old tools and has not been upgraded to produce bikes or in Taiwan that has a modern up to date tools making sure that your frame is well aligned checked by computers not just by eye sight with serious devoted working people and an industrial country that is already leading in terms of economy, a country that build ships, airplanes,computers, electronics and 80% that you see around you now is made there. Italy they are already behind now, they just build fancy cars and nice bags and they are probably asking the help of taiwan with regards to all of this things that they are producing. So let's face it guys Taiwan and other asian countries are leading the game


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

ROLEX said:


> Taiwan that has a modern up to date tools with serious devoted working people and an industrial country that is already leading in terms of economy, a country that build ships, airplanes,computers, electronics and 80% that you see around you now is made there.


Cantieri Navali Italiani is a world leader in the commercial and naval shipbuilding industry.

Alenia, Piaggio and Augusta are all involved in the manufacture of aircraft and aerostructures. 

These are all Italian companies. 

I would be inclined to think that 80% of what iIsee around me comes from China rather than Taiwan.....they're not the same place.


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## MERAKMAN (Mar 6, 2008)

Dogma Dave said:


> No problem my friend. The previous poster stated that all Pinarello frames are made in Taiwan. I stated that this was not correct, based not on heresay but on the information contained on the current Pinarello website:
> 
> _"The Dogma remains the great pride of Pinarello, with the Made in Italy mark and our "Fatta da Pinarello" emblem.
> An extraordinary goal achieved through hard work and sacrifice, the Dogma is still handmade in Treviso from the raw tubes until the paint job and final assembly."_
> ...



Hi Dogma Dave

You sound like you love your Dogma (s). I was thinking of getting one, could you give me an insight into the ride of it? Have you ridden the Prince to compare? Thanks in advance.


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