# Understanding wheel advantages??



## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm really confused over wheels and their advantages. It seems like a lot of people are interested in upgrading wheels to gain advantages like speed making climbing easier. Nearly every entry like this gets blasted for throwing away their money and not training hard enough.

I always hear that one of the best upgrades are wheels. Why? Why are there different price ranges, quality, weights if they don't give much advantages? Is it like many sports and, real advantages are only to the elite few? If I shave 300 gm off my wheels, will I notice any difference in climbing? Over distance?

I don't race. I like to do centuries and doubles and always look for a way to make 200 miles seem shorter. I'm 6'2" 180 lbs what point is a wheel light enough? I ride at least 5 days a week and I am fit. Speed is not as interesting to me as endurance.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Vontress- First off, great question. Very in depth and concise. Something you don't see on forums too often. Anyways, the reason that people always buzz about how wheels are the most important upgrade is simply because rotating weight is much more noticeable that static weight. Shaving a bit of weight on your wheels (even a small amount) will drastically effect the feel of how fast the hoops accelerate. The less weight you have to get rotating up to speed will have a direct effect on how the user perceives his or her ride as being responsive. 
Another big advantage is the aerodynamic capability and power transfer. Depending on what wheel upgrade you may choose, you will more than likely have a much better aerodynamic advantage over the stock hoops that came on your rig. This may not seem like it would have a big effect but boy I tell you when your cutting through headwinds on flats that seem endless, a bit of aero doesn't hurt. The power transfer, however, is what I think makes the biggest difference. When you have a wheel set that is laced with the proper amount of spokes for your weight to the right set of hubs/rims, it does wonders for how wonderful it is to ride a bicycle.


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## Puke N Hurl (Dec 22, 2009)

Great question, V

One of the best upgrades are wheels but you do have valid questions. Just like bikes, wheels are different price points due to different materials, machining tolerances, manufacturing and assembly methods, etc. All of which lead to the holy grail of light, stiff, strong. If you do shave 300g off your wheels, you will notice a difference in how they accelerate, stiffness, ride quality, and so on. 

However, over a long distance, I am a proponent of a aero, or semi-aero, wheel but it really depends on the kind of terrain you are riding. 200 mile tour through the Alps or Rockies? Maybe a light wheel will benefit but you do have to come down the other side...if you are riding mostly in Iowa then try some aero wheels...

So, what kind of terrain are you riding? Do you intend on using these wheels on a daily basis or a special event only sort of thing? You might find the front end wandering when its windy if you run more than a 50mm profile on the rim. I am about your size and don't have a problem there, myself. 

My 0.02 anyway.


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## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

I live in northern California. I do most my riding in the mountains. I wouldn't think I would want more than about a 30mm wheel.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

vontress said:


> I live in northern California. I do most my riding in the mountains. I wouldn't think I would want more than about a 30mm wheel.


you're on the right track, for sure. one of the most popular wheels we build for guys like you (non-racer, but rides a lot of miles on rolling terrain and/or climbing-descending) is the velocity aerohead/aerohead oc, dt aerolite spokes and a good quality hub. we use a lot of white industries or dt swiss hubs. at 180 pounds you could ride 28fr/32rr. w/ alloy nipples you'd be right around 1400g.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Theres not THAT much of a difference. When you're racing, 10 seconds over a course very may well be the difference between winning and not making podium. 

For a fun ride when you might stop for 20 minutes just to take in scenery or something.. that 10 seconds becomes irrelevant. 

For climbing, you'll notice a little. Hard climbs will still be hard. At best you might find yourself clicking down one gear, maybe. 

It really boils down to: people buy nice wheels for the same reason they buy a fine watch. It doesnt tell time any better, its just nicer.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

As Zen says, great question Vontress. Last year I tested two sets of wheels for months on routes that I've ridden for years and on which I keep average speed and time records. My base set of wheels was a set I had ridden for two years previously - OpenPro/DuraAce/DtComp/32/32 that weighed 1762g and shod with Michelin Race tires weighing 257g. Total (with 2 tires and not counting tubes, as they were a constant) - 2276g.

Then I fitted a set of BWW Blackset Race, CX-Ray/24/28 that weighed 1410g . Tires were Vittoria OpenCorsa CX, weight 210g. Total 1830g. Those rims are 23mm deep.

Overnight I dropped 446grams or 15.73ounces from my wheels. The bike felt like a new bike. It handled much differently than the day before - much more quick & nippy when accelerating away from stops, slow corners and low sprinter hills. My average speed that day was slightly higher than the day before but well within the normal variations of my averages.

What I experienced was to be expected. I was accelerating less mass up to speed and the bike weighed 1lb less. I could feel that. Once up to cruising speed, lost weight becomes almost irrelevant. The lost weight was 446 grams but remember, one full small waterbottle weighs 648 grams and how often do we think twice about its effect?

Then I switched to a set of Zen Cyclery wheels with Kinlin XR300/WI H2/H3, CX-Ray, 24/28 weighing 1594 grams with 30mm deep rims. The tires were unchanged. Weight gain (over BWW Blackset Race) - +184 grams (but with 7mm deeper {more aero} rims remember).

The first ride with the Zen's was a 31 mile route that I've "time trialed" for years and have many documented times on. I had ridden that route two weeks previously on the BWW wheels and both rides had been "flat out" in similar conditions. Doncha just love anecdotal results?  Findings - those two rides were within *one minute* of each other (I don't log seconds). Did the more aero Zen's cancel out their weight penalty over the BWW's or does their differences make no difference under such test conditions? I'll let others argue that.

The extra weight (184g) of the Zen wheels didn't make them feel heavier or more sluggish than the BWW's. I couldn't notice a handling difference between them. The all-silver Zen's did look incredibly nice though and a big change from all black.

Buy good wheels Vontress and buy good custom, or customized, wheels built with you and your riding in mind but don't expect miracles. They only exist in the promises of some of the heavily marketed (and hyped) wheels. Read Tom's post 3x.

Next test set waiting for our winter to go away (it's -10c or 15f right now) - a BWW non-production (yet!) carbon fiber set with 50mm deep rims and CX-Rays. I can't wait. :mad2:


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

vontress said:


> I always hear that one of the best upgrades are wheels. Why?


Reasons to consider new wheels (my take).

1) better durability.
2) lighter weight.
3) better aerodynamics.
4) laterally stiffer wheels.
5) bling.

Number 1 is self explanatory.

Number 2, I'll go into more detail. The only time I notice the "better" acceleration is with the first few pedal strokes. It's pretty meaningless. If you sprint from 28mph to 24mph it doesn't matter. What matters there is number 4. Lighter wheels will "feel" different leaning into and out of corners. It's a lighter steering effort. Think SUV steering to BMW M3. That's more noticeable than anything else.

Number 3. If you ride solo where the clock matters, go for it. If you go solo in races to win, go for it. Aerodynamic improvements are real, albeit small. They can mean the difference in racing situations. Elsewhere, not so much.

Number 4. Improving the lateral stiffness of your wheels will improve the handling of the bike. You won't lose comfort (most of which comes from tire and pressure choice). You gain confidence at your handling limits. You also reap the benefits when out of the saddle. The handling improves whether you are climbing out of the saddle or sprinting to the line.

Number 5. There's nothing wrong with this justification. If you like riding better equipment then go for it and pump that economy;-) My biggest complaint comes when other people judge you based on your purchasing decisions. If you are going to spend big money on upgrades, at least have a thick skin about it and laugh off the haters.

Bottom line, each individual is responsible for their own purchasing decisions. Some suggestions I might make are, don't buy toys on credit. Been there, done that. Bad idea. Also, don't ride/race what you can't replace. Stuff happens out there.

Hope that helps.

-Eric


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## vontress (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks for all your input. From what I'm reading hear and elsewhere on forum, it looks like if I invest $1,000 I get less than 1% improvement in speed and wind drag. I love the bling factor but not that much. It seems like handling is the bigger factor. Something I would enjoy but won't help much on centuries.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Buy nice wheels but buy them for the right reasons. With eyes wide open we're not disappointed when we don't improve 2mph on a 100 mile ride. But as others have stated, a 2 second improvement (or a few watts of energy saved) in a real race can make winners out of non-winners.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Total lay person response here:
The two differences I noticed when I went from the low end wheels my bike came with to an upgraded set was: A. The better set stays true. B. The better set doesn't feel like they are bending or going to give out when really leaning into a corner at a good speed (in wheel geek speak that probably means 'lateral stiffness') Both of these really add up to less worries and that's nice.

Anyway, I'm not at all scientific about keeping track of my times but I didn't notice any increase in speed other than as the result of the better lateral stiffness increasing my confidence thus attacking certain situations where I might have felt the need to back off with the old wheels. In other words I was faster through corners at hight speeds but because I didn't feel the need lay off the gas like before not because the same effort produced more speed.

quote:
"Speed is not as interesting to me as endurance."
If you haven't already upgrading to a better (and possibly bigger depending what your starting point is) tire you might want to look there first. A smoother ride, thus less punishment to your body, will help endurance over the long haul and as far as gear goes tires is probably the place to look first for that (aside from if you'd need to change anything for a better fit). A new/better set of wheels might smooth things out but bang for the buck wise not like tires unless your starting point for wheels is really really bad.


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## twigseattle (Sep 10, 2009)

You seem to be concerned with bang for your buck. You ride centuries and dont race, so I think comfort is more important than aero advantages.

If this is correct, then go get a nice pair of 25c TIRES. Unless you already have upgraded your tires of course. Handling, comfort, it will all improve with a better tire, and by going to 25c you can reduce the pressure you ride at, the result will be a much smoother ride at your weight.

Once you have acclimated to that improvement, you can think about whether you are ready to invest $500+ in new wheels.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

The main difference is your bike will look different and your expectations will have changed. So make sure your new wheels *look* cool! You may also expect them to make a big performance difference, especially if you spent a lot of money, so you may ride differently, perhaps even try harder and see placebo results, and in this way get an even better experience.

One last thing, if you're going from aluminum to carbon the ride may be smoother. Not in the sense of immediately within the first minute on the bike you'll feel more comfortable, but at the end of an hour or longer ride you may not feel the ride as much.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Two numbers*



vontress said:


> I'm really confused over wheels and their advantages. It seems like a lot of people are interested in upgrading wheels to gain advantages like speed making climbing easier. Nearly every entry like this gets blasted for throwing away their money and not training hard enough.


For reference, the fastest aero wheels on the planet will give you about 0.3 mph at 20 mph compared to 32 spoke box section rims. Over 100 miles, that's 3-4 minutes so if you're racing long time trials, that's huge. If you're riding in a group, your ability to draft well is more important. And if you're riding solo, how long you take at your rest stops is at least as significant.

Shaving 300 gm off a wheel set will save you about 10 seconds per hour when climbing a 6% grade. Again for racers this can be very significant, and perhaps meaningless for a recreational rider.

The main thing that new wheels might give to an aggressive recreational rider (who's not living and dying by the stopwatch) would be improved durability, better bearings, and improved lateral stiffness.


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## tyjacks (Oct 21, 2006)

This is one of the most informative series of post I've read in quite awhile, I have a question though, would 1870grams for a 50mm carbon/aluminum wheelset be considered heavy for fast group and trianing rides? Route has rollers, false flats, with some 3-6% short climbs, mostly flat though. I'm 6'3" 235lbs.

http://www.ffwdwheels.com/product.asp?idCategory=93&page=9


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*System weight*



tyjacks said:


> This is one of the most informative series of post I've read in quite awhile, I have a question though, would 1870grams for a 50mm carbon/aluminum wheelset be considered heavy for fast group and trianing rides? Route has rollers, false flats, with some 3-6% short climbs, mostly flat though. I'm 6'3" 235lbs.


Think of it this way: on the flats, wheel weight is essentially meaningless; when climbing think of weight in terms of total system weight. Those wheels would add about 1/4% to your total weight, and so you would be 1/4% slower on a climb. If you are climbing a hill at 10 mph, then you would be 0.025 mph slower. About 10 seconds per hour penalty, maybe less. At your weight you should be much more interested in durability.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

It takes less power to climb with lighter wheels going the same speed. You cant assume the persons trying to go faster, as it takes significantly more power to go faster.. think of as energy expended to go the same speed. 

If a climb takes you an hour on heavy wheels, you can do that same climb in an hour on lighter wheels, and you'll be less tired. You make it sound like chugging along 2200 gram monsters is splitting hairs different than a 1500g wheelset.

At 180lbs, theres lots of ~1600g wheelsets that would last a long time, be durable, and feel quick.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Kind of backwards*



TomH said:


> It takes less power to climb with lighter wheels going the same speed. You cant assume the persons trying to go faster, as it takes significantly more power to go faster.. think of as energy expended to go the same speed.
> 
> If a climb takes you an hour on heavy wheels, you can do that same climb in an hour on lighter wheels, and you'll be less tired. You make it sound like chugging along 2200 gram monsters is splitting hairs different than a 1500g wheelset.
> 
> At 180lbs, theres lots of ~1600g wheelsets that would last a long time, be durable, and feel quick.


I'm not sure if you were attempting to reply to my post (if yes then you should have hit the reply button in my post rather than in the OP's post), but either way, I think you have it backwards. When climbing, most people are working at some "adequately comfortable" power level - a perceived effort that they feel they can sustain without undue discomfort. If they use lighter equipment, then they will be faster when climbing.

In your example, a 180 lb rider putting out 250 watts on a 6% grade would be 23 seconds per hour faster if they reduced their wheel weight by 700 gm. That would mean they would gain about 320 feet her hour, or about 0.67% more distance. Only you can decide whether 23 seconds per hour of climbing is worth it. A more realistic example of 300 gm lighter wheels would save more like 10 seconds per hour.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

If you change to a linear display mode, it eliminates the redundancy of needing to quote everyone, and have the same paragraph show up 100 times per thread  Makes it more like a chat window, the last comment follows the previous. Its pretty much an internet wide default viewing mode, Im not sure why RBR and MTBR insist on using the hybrid/threaded modes as default. 

Either way, if you ride alone thats true. If you ride in a group, the pace will just get easier. If you climb in your lowest gear, under your efficient cadence, climbing will also require less effort. You wont always be climbing a moderate hill in a efficient gear at a comfortable pace.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Making the point*



TomH said:


> If you change to a linear display mode, it eliminates the redundancy of needing to quote everyone, and have the same paragraph show up 100 times per thread  Makes it more like a chat window, the last comment follows the previous. Its pretty much an internet wide default viewing mode, Im not sure why RBR and MTBR insist on using the hybrid/threaded modes as default.


Yes, but when you do it the way you like to, you cannot tell which post you are responding to. When you reply to the post directly, it becomes clear, as I am doing here.



TomH said:


> Either way, if you ride alone thats true. If you ride in a group, the pace will just get easier. If you climb in your lowest gear, under your efficient cadence, climbing will also require less effort. You wont always be climbing a moderate hill in a efficient gear at a comfortable pace.


Agreed. At a fixed climbing speed, lighter equipment means less effort.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

get lighter tires and tubes with new wheelset, sub 200g for the rear and something even light for the front and 50g tubes.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

TomH said:


> snipped.


I prefer this method of reply so my response is directed properly. I prefer linear mode as well, but I don't always assume that a response is directed to the post immediately above it. It depends on the conversation.

-Eric


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Fabulous thread and information from everyone. Thanks. I am keeping my current wheels!


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

Wheels are something I've never really understood and mostly ignored. I have two sets of wheels at present, Campagnolo Vento's and Protons. Both somewhere in the 1900 range as I recall. I've never really given them much thought until recently. 

My new commute route to and from work has several steep climbs in it. I end up in my lowest gear (39-27) well below my typical cadence and mashing. I've considered switching to a compact crank and I'm tossing around a set of Soul 2.0s as well. 500g (ish) loss in the wheels seems like it would be significant, though opinions on the subject vary quite a bit. 

My first thought is just keep hitting it and let strength build to handle the steeper grades which will move my cadence back up to where it should be. The problem is that mashing the lower cadence is irritating my knees (behind knee cap) which has never happened before. Bike fit has been checked by a pro, who states it's perfect. He believes I am straining the knee by mashing those climbs. He suggests stronger legs, lower gears or lighter wheels...

I follow what some of you are saying as far as once up to speed the weight has little effect. If, however, on steep climbs if a normal cadence isn't proving possible and my pedal stroke is much less smooth...does a lighter weight wheel make a more significant impact? I ask out of ignorance here since wheel swapping is an area I have no experience in and some of you clearly do.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ColoRoadie said:


> I follow what some of you are saying as far as once up to speed the weight has little effect. If, however, on steep climbs if a normal cadence isn't proving possible and my pedal stroke is much less smooth...does a lighter weight wheel make a more significant impact? I ask out of ignorance here since wheel swapping is an area I have no experience in and some of you clearly do.


It will make as much difference as any other loss of the same weight on the bike (or yourself). Try this as a test - ride the hill flat out with a full waterbottle (approx 650g). Then ditch the bottle and ride the hill again. That's the approximate difference for your 500g wheel weight loss.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

vontress said:


> Thanks for all your input. From what I'm reading hear and elsewhere on forum, it looks like if I invest $1,000 I get less than 1% improvement in speed and wind drag. I love the bling factor but not that much. It seems like handling is the bigger factor. Something I would enjoy but won't help much on centuries.[/QUOTE
> 
> Durability is a huge factor as well. Now, I'm not going to say that all expensive wheels are durable, but when spending a bit more you will reap the benefits of that investment many seasons down the road.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Physics*



ColoRoadie said:


> I follow what some of you are saying as far as once up to speed the weight has little effect. If, however, on steep climbs if a normal cadence isn't proving possible and my pedal stroke is much less smooth...does a lighter weight wheel make a more significant impact? I ask out of ignorance here since wheel swapping is an area I have no experience in and some of you clearly do.


Weight slows you down on climbs and whether the weight is in your bike, your wheels, or your body makes no difference. For a rough number, adding 300 grams costs 10 seconds per hour on a 6% grade.


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