# Cat 5 form how to judge if i am ready



## chirider990 (Apr 18, 2004)

Well i know there is no hard answer for this. If I were to race a cat 5 TT for 15 miles how fast should I average. Lets say the course is flat and smoothe. Currently I am averaging around 20.6 mph and 20.1 mph over 40 miles of rolling hills. Do I fit cat 5? Should I expect to get dropped? Am I going to look like one of those guys that races cat 5 just so he can win? I am new to road racing but have done some mtb racing in the past. I guess what I am looking for here is am I on the right track or should I kick it up a notch to be competitive racing the road.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

They won't allow you to race cat 4 until you race cat 5.


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## rellimreeb (Jul 29, 2007)

chirider990 said:


> Well i know there is no hard answer for this. If I were to race a cat 5 TT for 15 miles how fast should I average. Lets say the course is flat and smoothe. Currently I am averaging around 20.6 mph and 20.1 mph over 40 miles of rolling hills. Do I fit cat 5? Should I expect to get dropped? Am I going to look like one of those guys that races cat 5 just so he can win? I am new to road racing but have done some mtb racing in the past. I guess what I am looking for here is am I on the right track or should I kick it up a notch to be competitive racing the road.


You'll end up getting passed by a few people, especially if you have a few accomplished Tri-guys/sandbaggers in your local CAT5 ranks. 

I race w/ a reformed Tri-geek who's now a CAT5 road racer. He consistently places in the top 3-5 for his age group (30-35) in tri's in the area. He is extremely fast in TT's. He just sets his pace at 27 and goes - right by me in fact. 

Don't worry about your speed, just race your race, and leave it all out there. 

I spend too much time wondering what it would be like to road race. Just get out there and have fun. Now that I'm competitive, it's even more fun, but just go for it, you'll have a blast.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*ready?*



chirider990 said:


> Well i know there is no hard answer for this. If I were to race a cat 5 TT for 15 miles how fast should I average. Lets say the course is flat and smoothe. Currently I am averaging around 20.6 mph and 20.1 mph over 40 miles of rolling hills. Do I fit cat 5? Should I expect to get dropped? Am I going to look like one of those guys that races cat 5 just so he can win? I am new to road racing but have done some mtb racing in the past. I guess what I am looking for here is am I on the right track or should I kick it up a notch to be competitive racing the road.


Riding a flat time trial is nothing like riding 40 miles over rolling hills, especially if you are drafting. 

For 10 - 15 miles, you'd want to be around 23 mph to start to be competitive for a Cat 5. Around 25 mph would be better. Understand that every mph is much, much harder to acheive. It takes almost twice as much power to go 25 mph as it does 20. 

Road racing, mass start, especially with hills, will be much more about peak power, or power you can hold for 5 minutes or so, than steady state power. In road races, frequently you'll find yourself rolling along at a conversational pace on the flats, and then suddenly going hard enough to puke on a hill. 

Best way to find out is to just get out there and do it. Just accept the fact that you'll likely get dropped and have to suffer riding in alone like most of us have had to do.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

chirider990 said:


> Well i know there is no hard answer for this. If I were to race a cat 5 TT for 15 miles how fast should I average. Lets say the course is flat and smoothe. Currently I am averaging around 20.6 mph and 20.1 mph over 40 miles of rolling hills. Do I fit cat 5? Should I expect to get dropped? Am I going to look like one of those guys that races cat 5 just so he can win? I am new to road racing but have done some mtb racing in the past. I guess what I am looking for here is am I on the right track or should I kick it up a notch to be competitive racing the road.


For regular road racing, you are more than likely fast enough to race in road races and the only way to really tell is to get out and race.

For TT's...if you plan on using your regular road bike and those are your average speeds, expect to be near the bottom of the field in a CAT 5 TT.

Earlier this year as a CAT 5 I was averaging 25+ mph over 20 mile TT's that were rolling in nature and finishing top 3, but didn't win any of them.

One of my teammates as a CAT 5 on the same courses was averaging 26.5 mph and was generally in the top 2-3 overall...including CAT 1/2 racers.

On a flat course at the state ITT's this year...though my teammate and I have since moved to CAT 4's...I averaged 26.11 mph over 40K and had a bad day on the bike (dehydration and cramping) and my teammate averaged just under 28 mph for the same 40K.

So if you are wanting to do TT's...20 mph average isn't going to cut it. For a road race you should be fine since you can draft.


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## MJH2 (Feb 26, 2007)

If you have to ask if you're ready for a Cat 5 race, you're ready for a Cat 5 race.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

There are people who are much better TTers than me and could average a speed much higher than me in a breakaway.

But sitting in a group is completely different. Many of those people can (and do) get dropped because they can't handle the surges up some hills or around some corners. Who cares if you can put out 300 watts for an hour if you can't put out 400 for a 5min climb?


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

What kind of speed bursts is a cat5 group doing up the climbs? I am in a similar group but know I can't compete because my climbing sucks.


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## rellimreeb (Jul 29, 2007)

jsedlak said:


> What kind of speed bursts is a cat5 group doing up the climbs? I am in a similar group but know I can't compete because my climbing sucks.


seriously - don't worry about it, just race, you only have a few races left this season anyway.


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## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

i finally got my mtb buddy at a crit in August. he lined up for his first ever RR in a Cat 4/5 combined field in an 8 turn pancake flat course. I knew he would get pulled, and he knew also. he made it 5 laps out of 20. but you know what: he pinned on a number and did it. now he is motivated to get faster. just do it. don;t over analyse it.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> What kind of speed bursts is a cat5 group doing up the climbs? I am in a similar group but know I can't compete because my climbing sucks.


Doesn't matter, it all depends, and who cares -- all in one.

Go out and race so you know what to expect next year and so you can train around the intensity you need.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I would still like to know...


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

the question is incapable of response. there are too many variables. 

I'll add to what others have said -- you have to do it to find out, and you'll never even know what we're talking about until you go for it.


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## chirider990 (Apr 18, 2004)

thank you all for your answers. I am doing a 4 day stage race in the chicago burbs. 2 crits 1 tt and a 24 mile road race. We will see how it goes


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Fall Fling
4 races over 2 weekends.
Once you get dropped in the 1st road race, conserve your energy for Sunday's Crit.The next weekend should be easier. You can go all out in the short TT and still be fresh for the next day's Crit.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Just effing DO IT. That's the ONLY way you'll know. Yeah, it might be a bit scarey and yes, you'll probably get pulled. So did most of us. But you train harder and get better.


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## StillRiding (Sep 16, 2006)

chirider990 said:


> Well i know there is no hard answer for this. If I were to race a cat 5 TT for 15 miles how fast should I average. Lets say the course is flat and smoothe. Currently I am averaging around 20.6 mph and 20.1 mph over 40 miles of rolling hills. Do I fit cat 5? Should I expect to get dropped? Am I going to look like one of those guys that races cat 5 just so he can win? I am new to road racing but have done some mtb racing in the past. I guess what I am looking for here is am I on the right track or should I kick it up a notch to be competitive racing the road.


The speed you can maintain solo over 40 miles is almost totally irrelevant to your fitness for a cat 5 race.

For starters, cat 5 races are typically much shorter and require a totally different kind of effort. In cat 5 racing, you're going to need to be able to go to your absolute anaerobic limit, then coast almost effortlessy, then go to the limit again, then go hard aerobically, then coast, then go to the anaerobic limit again. Repeat 40 or 50 times. To be successful you need to build your anaerobic capacity and have the capability to recover quickly. Just riding 40 miles at a 20 mph pace doesn't do much to develop that kind of fitness (which is why most very fit beginners get shot out the back during the first few laps of their first race).

The second reason why just riding 40 miles solo at speed doesn't tell you much is that the ability to conserve energy and the ability to handle a bike are critical parts to racing in a peloton. Knowing where to be when and having the ability to get there can make all the difference. Experienced but weaker riders will almost always beat rookies, especially when it comes down to a field sprint.

The best preparation for a cat 5 race is racing. If you can find a club, do a few club races. Figure out a little about how everything works, build your "race" conditioning. If worse comes to worse, just work on hard, relatively short intervals for about three weeks and try to find some group rides that will allow you to swap off maximum effort pulls. Do this, and you'll have a very good chance of doing well in your first cat 5 race.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

chirider990 said:


> thank you all for your answers. I am doing a 4 day stage race in the chicago burbs. 2 crits 1 tt and a 24 mile road race. We will see how it goes


Well, that's one way to quickly get into racing.

The efforts can be categorized as "harder than you've ever done by yourself."


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## SunnySang (Aug 4, 2008)

Well with cat 5 crits, they are either mellow or fast as hell, ive never been in a crit that has had a good speed the whole time. 

Road racing, well personally, i thought it was very easy. Im a junior this year (im 17, 18 next may) and i started biking last may (i got my bike as 16th birthday present instead of a car ). When i got my bike i was about 230lbs and could barely ride. I was about 178 this February, when i did my first road race (cat 5 not cat 4/5) and it was about 50 miles (2 25 mile laps). The first lap was real easy, i think we were going 17mph out and about 20mph back. It got a bit faster as we were reaching the starting line to turn around to head out for our second lap, but thats about it. Going out on the second lap, same thing, it was a bit faster, but overall not that much. But then after the last turnout (soo we just did about 37.5 miles and 12.5 miles left to go) it got fast and i just stuck in pack. The finishing two miles were rollers and then a climb finish. In my condition back then, idk how i managed to keep up but i just matched an attack at 3 miles to go and stuck on his wheel. Then more came up but we got in a kind of breakaway. Then at the last hill climb, stupid me attacked at the bottom of the hill and i got dropped by the breakaway. I got 8th out of about 37 in my first ever bike race without even a year of riding. 

But the next weekend was my first crit (cat 4/5 killer to the legs). It did not go as well as the road race. I was basically in the back the whole race struggling to hang on the the very fast pace because i didnt know how to take turns with a pack. Soo i finished dead last of the peleton, but i was happy just to have been able to hold on. 

My first time trial was in april and i thought i did pretty good. At this point i probably weighed 173ish lbs. It was a 10 mile flat loop TT in the afternoon after a 30 mile crit in the morning (which i had placed about 12th). The thing that killed on the TT was it was the first hot day of the year and i wasnt used to 92 dagrees. Even after doing that crit in the morning, i did the 10 mile time trial in 27:45 (may sound slow, but the heat really took a toll and the crit in the morning didnt help) and i placed 14. I personally thought the group had a sandbager because the top 3 times were 25:17, 25:54, and 26:19. 
Thats my experience, hope it helps.....


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> I personally thought the group had a sandbager


not too many sandbaggers in the 5's -- you can't win any money. 4's have sandbaggers -- guys who consistently finish top ten but won't move up.

that guy probably wasn't a sandbagger. every once in a while, there are guys who come along that are uber strong, uber talented, and they have to start somewhere. so they kill it in the 5's and quickly move up to 2. It happens.

I am making no judgment, btw, as to whether that guy was the guy who was going to make it to the 2's -- according to my math, his time was about 24 mph. that's not very fast for a 10 mi TT, unless it was hilly or windy.


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## MJH2 (Feb 26, 2007)

chirider990 said:


> thank you all for your answers. I am doing a 4 day stage race in the chicago burbs. 2 crits 1 tt and a 24 mile road race. We will see how it goes


On the first weekend, you're going to want to go straight to the front and set the pace. Do whatever you can to stay out there... the whole time. I'll be the guy in blue/turquoise about 3 riders behind you. I'll stay there to make sure that you're doing everything correctly.

On the second weekend, you can do whatever you want... I won't be there.  

Good luck. It's going to be fun!


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## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

Cat 5's can have some fast guys, doesn;t mean they are sandbagging. there have been 2 guys around me in the last 3 years that have gone from cat 5 to cat 2 in 2 years. they started racing late and had teh genetic gift. if you happend to cross paths while they are getting their 10 races together, you will get mauled, lapped, demoralized, etc. the other type of "ringer" is the triathelete. he/she does a RR once and awhile on a 1 day license. they might ride off the front never to be seen again.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Just pin it on.*

Go racin'.

That's it.

Don't worry about average speed. your own average for yourself means nothing compared to the race, as others have said.

Though I will say this: If your AVERAGE speed on most training rides is 20 mph+, you are riding too hard. Slow down for the easy parts, and go HARDER for the hard parts...


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Yikes. Cat 5 sounds intimidating and its the beginning level of racing lol. I know for a fact that i cant hang yet after reading this thread. The hills kill me around here and they arent even steep grades. Ive been RBing for about 2 months now and I guess Im impatient. Ill try to hit one of the races this saturday at Prospect Park just to see how much improvement I need to go before being a Cat 5. Right now Im only fast on the downhills like everybody and there mother lol.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

one of the things that happens, in addition to increasing basic fitness, is that you learn what your body can take. it can take a lot. you've never pushed yourself as you will when racing; I promise.

I would amend what Argentius says (go slower/go faster) to this extent -- you need to do it all. steady state efforts, for guys that do nothing but race crits or do fast group rides with attacks, can be great training.


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## chirider990 (Apr 18, 2004)

MJH2 said:


> On the first weekend, you're going to want to go straight to the front and set the pace. Do whatever you can to stay out there... the whole time. I'll be the guy in blue/turquoise about 3 riders behind you. I'll stay there to make sure that you're doing everything correctly.
> 
> On the second weekend, you can do whatever you want... I won't be there.
> 
> Good luck. It's going to be fun!



not sure if this is how it worked out or what team you were racing with but I did finish as follows. 

RR 8th
CR 4th
TT 12th
CR 3rd

Most importantly I learned a little more about racing and catching the breaks before they are a half lap ahread.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

chirider990 said:


> not sure if this is how it worked out or what team you were racing with but I did finish as follows.
> 
> RR 8th
> CR 4th
> ...



That's very good!

What was your overall placing for the stage race?


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## chirider990 (Apr 18, 2004)

Finished 3rd overall. I am totally stoked over this. Really love the crit racing. Now it is into prepare for next year and try not to drop off the training and gain weight mode. How did you do over the weekends?


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## vanjr (Sep 15, 2005)

Very interesting thread. I have done one true cat 4/5 crit and a few club time trials (both 5 miles and 18 miles). Some of the posts make it sound like being able to hold 20 mph over 40K is easy compared to the sprint/surges of a crit. Maybe it is person dependant, but I think 20 mph time trial times are pretty dang hard. I can't imagine being able to average over 20 mph for an hour ride, but I do think I can do ok in crits. Heck I don't think I could come close to 20 mph on a time trial basis without a tailwind.


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## gatorling (Jun 25, 2008)

vanjr said:


> Very interesting thread. I have done one true cat 4/5 crit and a few club time trials (both 5 miles and 18 miles). Some of the posts make it sound like being able to hold 20 mph over 40K is easy compared to the sprint/surges of a crit. Maybe it is person dependant, but I think 20 mph time trial times are pretty dang hard. I can't imagine being able to average over 20 mph for an hour ride, but I do think I can do ok in crits. Heck I don't think I could come close to 20 mph on a time trial basis without a tailwind.


Yeah, I agree average speed is a really wacky way to judge if you're ready for a CAT 5 race. Perhaps a better indicator would be to look at the power profile of an average CAT 5 crit.
Then again I don't know many cat 5 racers who have a PM.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

vanjr said:


> Very interesting thread. I have done one true cat 4/5 crit and a few club time trials (both 5 miles and 18 miles). Some of the posts make it sound like being able to hold 20 mph over 40K is easy compared to the sprint/surges of a crit. Maybe it is person dependant, but I think 20 mph time trial times are pretty dang hard. I can't imagine being able to average over 20 mph for an hour ride, but I do think I can do ok in crits. Heck I don't think I could come close to 20 mph on a time trial basis without a tailwind.



Several things to take into consideration:

1. Where you live will effect your average speed. If it's pancake flat, speeds will be higher. If it's very hilly, speeds will be slower. If it's windy, speeds can be faster or slower depending on wind direction.

2. CAT 5 is a strange category. You get a mix of blazing fast guys and guys that just want to try it out. The blazing fast guys generally move up pretty quickly and races generally tend to break up into small groups at the CAT 5 level. The really fast guys up front, the fit guys next and the complete newbies in the back. Race length will determine how long and how far apart the groups stay together.

3. When it comes to TT's a top level Triathlete may want to do them for training purposes and never road race. The only way to CAT up is to road race (RR's, Crits and Circuit races). If you don't road race you don't move up regardless of how fast you are on a bike. So many times the CAT 5 class at a TT can have a top 3-5 overall placing at a TT. The guy on my team who TT's at just under 28 mph for flat TT's is a top level Duathlete but had to compete at the CAT 5 level. Many times he beat all but maybe one CAT 1 guy and everybody else there. It sucks, but that's the way it works.

4. With TT's bike set up makes a difference. If you are using a stock road bike your speeds are not going to be as high as somebody on a TT bike with a skinsuit, aero helmet, disc wheels, etc.

5. Even though I've completed a 40K TT with an average speed of over 26 mph, pretty much all road races were in the 21-22 mph average and with a pack, it's easy to get in and rest so it's not as hard to maintain those speeds as you might think.

6. Crits are much faster than road races, but are also shorter...that's why their average speeds for CAT 5's are many times in the 24-26 mph range.

So the speeds may seem fast...because they are, but that's the reality of racing. I can't think of any level where road racing is even remotely easy. Racing is HARD and there are very, very fast guys at every level.

Are you ready? Only you will be able to tell and the only way to do that is to get out there and race. You might win, but then you might get shelled off the back quickly...you won't know until you get out there.


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## MJH2 (Feb 26, 2007)

chirider990 said:


> Finished 3rd overall. I am totally stoked over this. Really love the crit racing. Now it is into prepare for next year and try not to drop off the training and gain weight mode. How did you do over the weekends?


Maybe the skill you should work most on for next year is staying in the pedals when you're sprinting?


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## mikeyp123 (Mar 9, 2007)

Interesting stuff. For reference, I'm also a cat 5 racer. I can just about crack a 1 hour 40k TT, which is just under 25mph.. BUT I've never been able to finish with the lead group in a road race. I'm a pretty decent (steady) climber too, I just can't handle the extreme surges. I know what I need to work on for next season. I think it also depends where you live, in the SoCal area we seem to have an abundance of really good cat 5 guys.


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## austincrx (Oct 22, 2008)

It seems to me (and this goes for myself as well) that newbies are eager to race, but don't want to embarrass themselves by sucking it up. I can understand that. I did autocross (american, not european) for 6 years before i figured out why the he!! i was so slow all the time, it clicked, and I finished third at that event. Unfortunately that was the last event of this past season. But three years ago I started road racing (in a car, not a bike) and I could hang with the guys that had been doing it for 5-10 years, it's just one of those things, you don't know until you try. ( I understand that autoracing is alot easier than bicycle racing, in that you don't really have to 'work' to get better, only dump more money into your car, and then go to more races/test days to get your skills better.) Here's one way to look at it: imagine that as a newbie you are a ford escort. nothing wrong with this car, but it's deff. not competitive. As you train and become faster you will jump to a honda civic (little faster), then maybe a celica, etc. on up to the top (i'd say an Audi R10 Diesel, or the Bentley LMP1 prototype car.) The only difference with bike racing is that it would be like having a car racing class with no modification limits, so you'd get civics w/ 4-cylinders and civics w/ V-8's!!

this is what i can figure out. now if only i could find a race close enough to go to.


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## david462 (Jan 3, 2008)

why did this one have to come back


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## pedalstomper78 (Jul 4, 2007)

OK......of all of the opinions here, I have to agree with Kram the most. Just do it. You'll learn really quick. 

The best racing story that I have is of a kid that showed up to a local crit to ride the JR's class. He showed up with his adopted father and they both had ooooollldddd bikes and even had the racks on them for touring. The kid throught that the course went straight and his front touched someone's rear. Before they even got out of the neutral zone and to the start line, he was on the tarmac. The next week? He showed up there ready to kick some butt. 2nd lap, he got dropped. The final week of the crit? He almost made the 2nd lap before getting dropped. I talked to the kid after that race. Sounds like he'll still be back next year. He'll learn the sport and although he may never get the hardware, he's still there.


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