# Some Specialized history



## jkp

I am finding information on early Specialized road bikes hard to find. Here is what I have found, and hopefully, others will share what they know. According to Bryant Bainbridge, Director of R&D at Specialized from 1983-1990, Tim Neenan ( Lighthouse Frames) was their first frame designer. Tim Neenan designed the Expedition after a custom touring frame he made for Mike Sinyard ( Specialized owner). I believe Neenan was also responsible for the Sequoia model. The next frame designer was Jim Merz. In the mid-eighties, Allez bears his name. Was there an earlier Allez that was designed by someone else? The final designer of the lugged steel era was Mark Dinucci ( associated with Strawberry cycles). I believe he was responsible for the Allez Pro and Allez Comp. According to Bryant Bainbridge, the 1984 production Allez was made by Miyata and later by some smaller factories. From Tim Neenan: the Expedition was made of Tange tubing, the same gauge as Columbus SP- 1mm/.7mm. I find the Specialized lugged steel frames interesting because they combine the designs of talented frame designers with the craftsmanship of the Japanese and later Taiwanese builders. Can anyone add to this?


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## caterham

jkp said:


> Was there an earlier Allez that was designed by someone else? .


 the first generation allez were designed and built in japan by 3rensho(san rensho) and imo, the most desireable.


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## Lighthouse Cycles

I designed the Sequoia, Allez, Expedition, and Stumpjumper frames. Mike Sinyard and I spent 4 weeks in Japan setting up production. Yes, Yoshi Konno built some of the Allezs and Sequoias, and they were beautiful frames. I built the Sequoia we sent to Bicycling Magazine for the first road test.
Tim


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## Reynolds531

Lighthouse Cycles said:


> I designed the Sequoia, Allez, Expedition and Stumpjumper frames. Mike Sinyard and I spent 4 weeks in Japan setting up production. Yes Yoshi Konno built some of the Allezs and Sequoias and they were beautiful frames. I built the Sequoia we sent to Bicycling Magazine for the first road test.
> Tim
> View attachment 191996


You should be proud! Those are 4 great bikes. And with you, eRichie and Dave Kirk sometimes posting I'm too intimidated to say much more.


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## Quattro_Assi_07

Lighthouse Cycles said:


> I designed the Sequoia, Allez, Expedition and Stumpjumper frames. Mike Sinyard and I spent 4 weeks in Japan setting up production. Yes Yoshi Konno built some of the Allezs and Sequoias and they were beautiful frames. I built the Sequoia we sent to Bicycling Magazine for the first road test.
> Tim
> View attachment 191996


Thanks for the information on Specialized history. I am very surprised that they do not archive this kind of material and information. I wrote them asking about my Dave Tecsh built 1987 Team Allez and they never even heard of it. If it was older than 1995, they don't have much information. Here is a photo of the catalog and also photos of my bike when I first picked it up...


























It now has white handlebar tape, a black Turbo (1987) saddle and a Dura Ace stem. Did Tecsh build these bikes to specs that you provided? If so, they are very similar to those that Dave himself built his own branded frames to. It has a very tight geometry and is a very quick handling bike. Do you know how many he built for Specialized?

Thanks,

James


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## scottk

I have a steel Allez from '95 or '96. Who would have built a bike around this time?
thanks,
scott


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## scottk

I mean who would have built Allez's around this time?


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## terbennett

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> Thanks for the information on Specialized history. I am very surprised that they do not archive this kind of material and information. I wrote them asking about my Dave Tecsh built 1987 Team Allez and they never even heard of it. If it was older than 1995, they don't have much information. Here is a photo of the catalog and also photos of my bike when I first picked it up...
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> It now has white handlebar tape, a black Turbo (1987) saddle and a Dura Ace stem. Did Tecsh build these bikes to specs that you provided? If so, they are very similar to those that Dave himself built his own branded frames to. It has a very tight geometry and is a very quick handling bike. Do you know how many he built for Specialized?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> James


That has to be the best looking Allez that I've ever seen. I'm jealous. I've always been a fan of the vintage Allez. They are getting harder to find. The oldest that I've been able to find in my size is my current 2000 model with the A1 frame. Great bike, but the frame build is pathetic compared to the craftsmanship that went into the earlier models. In fact, that could be said about most modern production bikes. The old skool detail can be had but you have to go to a custom- builder and even then you not all of them build with that kind of detail in mind. Your bike is a bike worth hanging on the wall. It's not better than a vintage Colnago or Pinarello, but those bikes aren't really better than your Allez either.


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## gomango

Lighthouse Cycles said:


> I designed the Sequoia, Allez, Expedition and Stumpjumper frames. Mike Sinyard and I spent 4 weeks in Japan setting up production. Yes Yoshi Konno built some of the Allezs and Sequoias and they were beautiful frames. I built the Sequoia we sent to Bicycling Magazine for the first road test.
> Tim
> View attachment 191996


I tip my hat to you on the design of these frames. I recently purchased a beautiful time capsule quality 1983 Stumpjumper Sport. I don't know if you had a hand in this model, but it is outstanding.

In addition, I have been looking for a top quality Expedition or Sequoia to no avail. I have seen some on line from time to time, but nothing available. One of these days!!!

By the bye, very nice work with Lighthouse Cycles.


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## spokesniffer

To answer your question, Tecsh was contracted to build 100 Allez's and 100 Stumpjumpers but he was never able to successfully bridge the gap from custom builder to production builder and his delivery faltered. We eventually got something like 65 of those Allez and to date yours is only the 3rd I have seen. Geos and materials were all provided by us, Dave did all the frame assembly. The bikes were then assembled in Calif one at a time. If you have any further questions, I would be happy to oblige.

Regards, Bryant Bainbridge


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## jkp

*Specialized history*

My favorite bike is my Jim Merz Allez SE- can you tell me who made it? I have read bits and pieces you have written elsewhere, and much appreciate the information you share. Please continue to enlighten us. Thank You, Kelly


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## spokesniffer

Your original post is correct. The SE was originally made at Miyata and very nicely executed. Lack of flexibility on the makers part (unlike most at the time, we wanted to specify all the details) led to moving the bikes to several smaller Japanese builders while it remained in Japan. In '86, the dollar tanked against the yen and I was faced with starting my development season with only one model in Taiwan but rapidly moved all but two bikes there within the follow few months simply because of the crash of the dollar. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the dollar lost close to half it's value in very little time. This one moment virtually wiped out the Japanese bike industry and forced everyone to help show the Taiwanese what 'good' looked like. We later made Allez & the Sirrus at Giant, where Mark DiNucci literally spent a month living in the factory, showing them how to braze and produce decent bikes. 

-BB


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## abarth

So Bryant, did Giant made the 90's steel Allez and the carbon Epic? And is it true that only the early Allez carbon frames had the carbon tube and lug separation problem? Thanks


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## spokesniffer

Giant did make the early 90's steel Allez with slightly oversized tubes. (Dinucci designed lugs, BB shell, DO's & Tubeset) & the 1st carbon Allez. We worked with them for 2 years to develop that bike. At the time, the Taiwanese government had determined that Taiwan would become a global leader in Carbon fiber and made huge investments in those that would pursue it. Giant was perhaps the first recipient in the bike biz. I remember when we hired a bike developer from Trek, he mentioned that they had put one of those Epic's on a testing machine expecting it to fail in short order and were shocked by the fact that they couldn't break it. Despite looking crude by today's measure, those were really nice riding bikes.


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## jkp

*Allez Epic*

I have one that I have ridden sparingly for several years. I`m no lite weight, and it hasn`t come apart on me. I did add an early TIME carbon fork to it- the carbon fork complimented the carbon frame nicely, for a further enhanced ride. I`ve been told the one that were going to come apart did so early on, those that survived should not be a worry. JKP


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## abarth

My is a 93 Epic. Love the ride, very compliance over bumps, yet still has decent power transfer, great for long ride. I ride it every chance I get, and I am 215lbs. I don't think weight is the cause of separation on those frame. I think it is galvanic corrosion between the aluminum and carbon. On my, I noticed Specialized wrapped something over the carbon tubes, me think fiber glass, probably to prevent the aluminum lugs to have direct contact with the carbon. I was just wondering if the early one was constructed the same way.


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## jkp

*Allez Epic*

I believe the later ( and safer) models used a darker material in the bottom bracket lug. I am in the same weight range, though I have to admit, I choose my rides with this bike to be on flatter terrain because of the reputation. That said, I recall one post of much heavier, ex college football player riding one, without bad results. Other companies used similar carbon tube, metal lug construction, and I think they all had occasional separation issues. JKP


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## spokesniffer

Don't know anything about the 93. I was out during that period. The 80's bikes are pure carbon. Sometimes an outerlayer is put on to protect the unidirectional fibers. Not sure if that was going on in 93. 

BTW-the comment that 'I think they all had occasional separation issues' is not correct. In fact the only separation issues were limited to the first shipment of bikes. That thing was over engineered to beat the band. In fact, it could have been significantly lighter, but at the time we wanted to be multiples over the safety factor since there was simply not a lot of experience in the market yet. BB


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## jkp

*Allez Epic*

I have watched these fairly closely, since purchasing mine a couple years ago- there do seem to be quite a few around still- which must speak well of the structural integrity. A friend has several Specialized mountain bikes of the same construction ( one with titanium lugs) - which I would think is a tougher test. I am glad to hear they were so over built- I`ll stop babying mine. JKP


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## abarth

spokesniffer said:


> Sometimes an outerlayer is put on to protect the unidirectional fibers. Not sure if that was going on in 93.


Here is a picture of the layer of over the carbon tube. Any idea what it is and it's purpose?


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## aptivaboy

I have truly enjoyed reading this thread. I have a 60 cm Specialized Allez SE from 1986 in the blue with yellow accents scheme, bought from Two Wheel Transit authority (how's that for retro?) and I loved it back in the day. It was my first racing bike, and got me through many criteriums and long day rides. It still sits there in the garage with much of the original Shimano 600 gruppo gone from breakage. Seriously, the derailleur came part and the right indexed lever exploded. I still have the original Specialized seatpost, bar and stem, although the bar is now gracing my Lemond. The bike, however, remained a proven performer, comfy over the long haul, and for a long top tubed bike very able to handle criteriums. 

Do you know why I bought the Allez? Great product placement there in American Flyers. I wish mine had been the red Prestige tubed model, but I couldn't afford that. They turn up from time to time on the Bay of Evil, and their prices are steadily rising. 

Gentleman, you guys designed a winner. She will eventually get restored. To this day, it is the only bike I've ever ridden that fit me perfectly. 

Robert


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## holamateo

I have really been enjoying this thread as well. It's great to hear from the designers on how things came about. I've been riding the same 80's or early 90's Specialized road bike for 15+ years and it's still my one and only road bike - I've put thousands of miles on it and still love how it rides. As a starving student I bought the frameset used and built it up with used 105 and Ultegra parts. The lugwork looks identical to Tim and Quattro Assi's Allez photos above. Same seat stay lugs, no rack braze ons, pump pegs...except...mine has a unicrown fork. The serial number is CG0069 8H12 (but it's hard to make out the 3rd digit due to paint). It's been stripped and painted a couple times but I seem to recall it was a red and white Sirrus when I got it - but I'm not positive. If anyone can help me identify the year based on my description I'd love to learn more about the bike. Is it the same frame, geometry and tubing as the Allez?

Thanks for any insight/suggestions.


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## holamateo

redunant post deleted - i thought the first one did not get submitted but it just took a while to upload.


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## Quattro_Assi_07

holamateo said:


> I have really been enjoying this thread as well. It's great to hear from the designers on how things came about. I've been riding the same 80's or early 90's Specialized road bike for 15+ years and it's still my one and only road bike - I've put thousands of miles on it and still love how it rides. As a starving student I bought the frameset used and built it up with used 105 and Ultegra parts. The lugwork looks identical to Tim and Quattro Assi's Allez photos above. Same seat stay lugs, no rack braze ons, pump pegs...except...mine has a unicrown fork. The serial number is CG0069 8H12 (but it's hard to make out the 3rd digit due to paint). It's been stripped and painted a couple times but I seem to recall it was a red and white Sirrus when I got it - but I'm not positive. If anyone can help me identify the year based on my description I'd love to learn more about the bike. Is it the same frame, geometry and tubing as the Allez?
> 
> Thanks for any insight/suggestions.


I would need to look at my catalog to see if the Sirrus geometry was the same. I want to say it is more relaxed. My Dave Tesch build Allez would make a good crit bike so I doubt your Sirrus would be that aggressive. As far as same tubing, I know it was not made with the Columbus SLX tubing mine was made with. Even the other Allezs were not made with it. The lugs are very plain looking, nothing fancy at all, so they probably look the same. Whether or not they are, who knows? Even Specialized doesn't seem to have the info on it, I've asked. They are no help. I do know it was originally painted by CyclArt.


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## aptivaboy

Apart from your Tesch masterpiece, the stock mid to late '80's Allezs were built with Tange Prestige tubing (the stock red American Flyers Allez), or a lower grade "Specialized Special Series" racing tubing for the Allez SE. I've always wondered what that meant, but since it was a Japanese manufactured frame, I've wondered if it isn't a mid-grade Tange or Ishiwata tubeset. I just went and looked at mine in the basement of doom and there are no identifying tubeset markings other than that "Special Series" decal on the fork blades.

As for the Sirrus, I have no idea, but I would imagine it was in the same tubing category as the Allez SE. In fact, might the Sirrus be the Allez SE just repackaged and redecaled? It came out about roughly the same time as the first carbon Allez Epics, so as the stock Allez moved up the food chain to carbon, might Specialized have created the Sirrus to fill the Allez SE gap and have a clearly delineated procuct lineup? 

Just wondering aloud.

Robert


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## holamateo

Great, thanks for anything you can find in the catalog. I seem to see plenty of Sirrus' with crowned lug forks in catalogs but it's the unicrown fork that seems to distinguish it from other years. From what I've read it sounds like in 1990 and on, the Sirrus became a little more slack for touring and added rack braze ons so I think that puts my frame in the 80's. My frame is obviously not in the class as your Tesch though - you've got a rare piece of history in museum condition. But still curious about my Sirrus nonetheless. I agree with you, it's a shame Specialized doesn't catalog their own history.


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## holamateo

Interesting thought Aptiva. It would be cool if this frame was really an Allez. I just bought a used Dura Ace 7700 9-speed group and Open Pro/Ultegra wheels and I've been debating whether to get my Sirrus powder coated (original paint is long gone) and reincarnate it again or to save up for some modern steel like a Lighthouse. I do still really like the way my frame rides but I wonder if there would be a noticeable difference in feel and performance between the old and new.


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## aptivaboy

The only thing I might do is get a carbon fork when the time (and money) comes for a repaint and rebuild. The bike is/was plenty comfy over the long haul except for the fork, which over thirty miles left my hands numb and ringing. 

If it helps in comparing the two, my '86 Allez SE has a flat to slightly sloping fork crown. It slopes down at maybe ten or fifteen degrees, but otherwise looks like the classic flat crown. The Specialized "S" is engraved or cast into the top of each side of the crown. Is your Sirrus the same?


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## holamateo

I know exactly the fork crown feature you're talking about. Mine's a bit different, it's totally smooth and rounded, almost like what modern carbon forks look like. But I'm pretty sure it came stock with the frame as I believe it had the same paint when I got it many years ago.

In any event that's a good idea to get a carbon fork for the frame. Would you recommend matching the rake of my current stock fork? I'm curious what model you got and how much it lightened your bike?


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## aptivaboy

I haven't gotten a new fork for it, yet. I'm still struggling to save up the spare buck or two in this lousy economy. When I do, I'm going to try to get a raked fork over a straight-bladed fork simply because I like the classic look. That will mean going threadless and losing the classic quill stem, but progress marches on. My Lemond's carbon fork is probably about 1/5 lighter than the Allez fork, but its a 1999 model, so I would imagine newer fork's would be even lighter. 

In the end, I'll hit my local bike shop for advice and purchasing. They only do high end racing and tri bikes, so they'll know best what would fit.


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## Quattro_Assi_07

holamateo said:


> I know exactly the fork crown feature you're talking about. Mine's a bit different, it's totally smooth and rounded, almost like what modern carbon forks look like. But I'm pretty sure it came stock with the frame as I believe it had the same paint when I got it many years ago.
> 
> In any event that's a good idea to get a carbon fork for the frame. Would you recommend matching the rake of my current stock fork? I'm curious what model you got and how much it lightened your bike?


That is my next upgrade on my Tesch Allez. Get rid of the crappy steel fork and get something lightweight and modern... and carbon. Threadless as well. I can't even stand looking at it, knowing how much faster I could be if only they had made it with a carbon fork back in the day. I feel so cheated. Damn you Specialized!!! :mad2: What were you thinking?

A new carbon fork should make the bike a thrill to ride. Can't wait! As soon as I save up some money, I am going to upgrade that heavy steel frame as well. Gotta find something carbon, preferably from China... cheap and lightweight, can't beat that with a stick. :thumbsup:


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## holamateo

I'm confused quattro, where's the hostility coming from? No one suggested tampering with your rare Tesch. I have a frankenstein of a bike that I've enjoyed in various incarnations for many years and thousands of miles. It will never be original - it's just a bike for riding. I recently come into the good fortune of a nice dura ace group and mavic wheels. I just posted on the forum since I'm just curious if it's worth upgrading this frame or just starting with a new frame. Peace my friend.


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## Quattro_Assi_07

holamateo said:


> I'm confused quattro, where's the hostility coming from? No one suggested tampering with your rare Tesch. I have a frankenstein of a bike that I've enjoyed in various incarnations for many years and thousands of miles. It will never be original - it's just a bike for riding. I recently come into the good fortune of a nice dura ace group and mavic wheels. I just posted on the forum since I'm just curious if it's worth upgrading this frame or just starting with a new frame. Peace my friend.


Huh? Yeah, I guess you are confused.  No hostility directed at you, just Specialized for not speccing a lightweight carbon fork. For that matter, they couldn't even see fit to have it made of carbon, those cheap basterds! Everytime I ride it, I realize how much I am slowed down by that boat anchor steel frame! :cryin: Everyone knows, it doesn't get any better than when it's made of carbon! :thumbsup:

Next to be going will be that heavy Dura Ace 7400 crankset. I am thinking SRAM Force, in carbon of course. :thumbsup:


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## jkp

*I too am confused*

I`ve read the previous posts several times, and never got the impression the carbon fork was suggested for the Tesche. By the way, I have a carbon fork on my Allez SE, and I`m very pleased with it.


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## aptivaboy

Quattro_Assi_07

I think you need to remember that we're talking about mid to late '80s and perhaps very early '90s Allez SE and Sirrus models. Carbon forks were pretty much nowhere to be found back then, except perhaps on ultra high end pro bikes. They would have been quite expensive in that era. There was no way that Specialized could have spec'd a carbon fork on these bikes and still gotten them sold at a reasonable price point. My Allez SE retailed for $499. Toss in a carbon fork from back in 1986 or 1987 (if they even existed in retail form) and the price would become astronomical.


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## MShaw

Back in the late 80s and early 90s the best you were gonna do is find an AL fork for that bike. Carbon didn't come into its own for a while after the bikes we're talking about came around.

I saw a few of the Allez-es in the shop I frequented in Blacksburg, but lusted after Italian beauties instead. 

I know it isn't relevent, but I had an S-Works mtn frame with the ?Ti/AL? lugs and carbon tubes. Best riding bike I've owned. Close second is my S-Works from 2004 that I'm trying to get back.

HTH

M


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## Maybeck

Here's some pics of an '82 "aero" Allez built at 3Rensho, that Bryant and others have been helping me with:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/otis/Allez/

These were just some quick shots taken to help identify it, I've since rubbed out the paint and have started working on the rebuild. Looks much better now.


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## holamateo

Ooo, I love the Allez version of those Dura Ace components. Very classy. What color are you going to paint the frame? Be sure to post more pictures as you rebuild the bike.

JKP if you have pics of your Allez with the carbon fork I'd love to see that too.


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## JetSpeed

My 92. Neat thread!


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## wooglin

caterham said:


> the first generation allez were designed and built in japan by 3rensho(san rensho) and imo, the most desireable.


I've got one of these, though the design of the 3Renshos is Tim Neenan's as he states above. There's some pics in the Specialized bike thread, but I spend more time on it than posing it.


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## rufus

holamateo said:


> Great, thanks for anything you can find in the catalog. I seem to see plenty of Sirrus' with crowned lug forks in catalogs but it's the unicrown fork that seems to distinguish it from other years. From what I've read it sounds like in 1990 and on, the Sirrus became a little more slack for touring and added rack braze ons so I think that puts my frame in the 80's. My frame is obviously not in the class as your Tesch though - you've got a rare piece of history in museum condition. But still curious about my Sirrus nonetheless. I agree with you, it's a shame Specialized doesn't catalog their own history.


I think '89 was the first year they went to a unicrown fork, and if was a red and white(actually, burgundy and ivory) Sirrus, it probably was an '89. I have one as well, my first real road bike since the Raleigh Record I bought for $113 when I was 13.

If it is an '89, it's the exact same frame as used on the Allez, they only differed on parts spec in those years.


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## josephr

Maybeck said:


> Here's some pics of an '82 "aero" Allez built at 3Rensho, that Bryant and others have been helping me with:
> 
> http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/otis/Allez/
> 
> These were just some quick shots taken to help identify it, I've since rubbed out the paint and have started working on the rebuild. Looks much better now.



link to pics is dead...can you post again? 

the '92 epic is sharp! is that the factory paint?


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## shuffles

Great to stumble upon this thread! I've been wondering about the history of mine. I think that it is a '93, as I once found a German catalog that showed a picture of a bike like this. Here it is with the original (I believe) DA 7400 and aluminum fork.




























This bike probably has well over 35,000 miles on it, and still rides great. New 7800 drivetrain, carbon fork, Toupe saddle, etc. but no recent pictures.

Any further information anyone has on this bike would be super appreciated.

Thanks!


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## spokesniffer

Quattro_Assi_07 said:


> That is my next upgrade on my Tesch Allez. Get rid of the crappy steel fork and get something lightweight and modern... and carbon. Threadless as well. I can't even stand looking at it, knowing how much faster I could be if only they had made it with a carbon fork back in the day. I feel so cheated. Damn you Specialized!!! :mad2: What were you thinking?
> 
> A new carbon fork should make the bike a thrill to ride. Can't wait! As soon as I save up some money, I am going to upgrade that heavy steel frame as well. Gotta find something carbon, preferably from China... cheap and lightweight, can't beat that with a stick. :thumbsup:


Quattro-hard to tell if you are being ironic or serious. In any case, when we designed this bike, there were no carbon forks for road bikes and even aluminum forks were not widely accepted except on something like the Alan, which was known to flex wildly in a sprint. Check out film of Sean Kelly winding up to see what I am talking about. Secondly, at the time (and for many still) a handmade steel frame by a master builder was highly desirable. Most companies work on an 18 month lead time from design to production, so these 1987 models were put to paper in late 1985, early 1986 at the latest. If you do your homework and see what else was on the market in those years you will find that nearly 100% of the bikes were steel from names like Masi, Colnago, Gios & Cinelli. Lastly, this was a cost no object bike made in very small quantities (I think we delivered just over 60 of these) and painted in a custom paint shop. Saving money on fork choice was not an option. 

-Bryant Bainbridge


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## aptivaboy

Spokeshiffer,

A question. Would you happen to recall what type of tubing was used on the Allez SE? My 1986 model decal just says "Special Series," nothing more. Tange? Ishiwata? What grade of steel?

Thank you for any pointers, and for making such a nice bike. 

Robert


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## spokesniffer

aptivaboy said:


> Spokeshiffer,
> 
> A question. Would you happen to recall what type of tubing was used on the Allez SE? My 1986 model decal just says "Special Series," nothing more. Tange? Ishiwata? What grade of steel?
> 
> Thank you for any pointers, and for making such a nice bike.
> 
> Robert


Robert- We used the 'special series' decal back then because it was still widely believed that unless a bike was made with Reynolds or Columbus, it just wasn't any good. It wasn't more than a few years later when Japanese companies like Tange began to lead with tubesets like Prestige. The tubing was butted cromoly and although I could guess at the dimensions, it would be better if I found some of our old internal documents detailing that. Needless to say, those tubes were comparable with any at the time. At this point, I simply don't remember whose tubes they were. Most of the Japanese tubing started out at Kobe Steel where the raw tube is created and houses like Tange or Ishiwata then swaged & butted the tube to it's final form. 

-Bryant Bainbridge


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## aptivaboy

Thank you for the information. I never felt like a second class citizen riding the "Special Series" tubing. The bike rode well (and, still does), was comfy and I didn't feel all beaten up after a long ride, and that was all that really mattered. I did some training rides at the Rose Bowl with Cat 1-2 racers, and it dawned on me after I learned to keep up that it was the rider who counted, not the tubing decal, and I was just a lousy Cat 4 (greats legs and engine, just NO race sense whatsoever!). 

I still wish Specialized would release a retro lugged steel frame. Done right, I have to believe there would be a market for old turds like me, and for some of the younger riders who appreciate the ride qualities of a good quality steel frame. 


Robert


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## aptivaboy

Just curious, does anyone have a link to a 1986 Specialized catalog? Some old catalog scans? I'm in the planning stages of getting my Allez SE refinished and I want to see if I'm missing anything. I think mine is near stock except for the rims and hubs and aero brake hoods for 600EX levers, which are darned near impossible to find.

Thanks,

Robert


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## jerrycan42

This is an 88 with a unicrown fork:

Photo Album - Imgur

This is the page from the 1998 catalog, showing the unicrown fork:

https://i.imgur.com/oUcva.jpg

I think 88 is indeed the 1st year of the unicrown fork.

As an aside, the unicrown fork is a little longer, so if you replace it with a carbon fork like the threaded one from slashbar, you'll have a noticeable forward sloping top tube and steeper seat/head tube angles.

I weighed unicrown fork and the carbon fork on my digital kick scale:
Nashbar Threaded carbon fork/aluminum steerer tube (size 160mm) : 558 grams
Specialized unicrown fork : 723 grams

The carbon fork worked ok but it made the bike look like ass with the sloping top tube, so I returned it.

Great bike. Took the punishment of weekly, 80 + km interval based club training rides for 2 years in wet and dry. Rode it like a $5 mexican ***** and it kept coming back for more. I'd still be riding it, but I got a steal of a deal on a new (to me) 2003 Argon 18.


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## strathconaman

The specialized steel frames are seriously undervalued right now. I picked up a '88 allez for $150 a few weeks ago. You can't find another an entry level steel frame from that era for less than $300.


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## aptivaboy

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a question. I have a 1986 Allez SE. If I read the prior posts correctly, it was built by Miyata, correct? The decal at the bottom of the downtube says "Japan," so its likely either them, right? I'm just curious. 

Thanks!


----------



## Robbmiami

What a spectacular forum ! I can't believe we're lucky enough to have the builders of such beautiful bikes right here to talk to in person. So I guess I'd be a fool not to ask this here (though I know this forum seems to have been dead for over a year) So I have a mid 90s epic carbon fiber frame with aluminum lugs. I'm very curious to know if I can fit a 700 x 28c tires on this frame. If not how large can I go ? I commute on some rough roads and want the most tire I can get. Any input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## garbec

Just picked this one up.. I believe it's a '93 or '94. It's very clean and I look forward to doing a Modern-Retro build. Most of these I've seen have rack mounts on the rear drops, so I'm not sure if that will identify it as a specific year or model. Can anyone give me some history on the tube set or design of this frame?


----------



## abarth

garbec said:


> Just picked this one up.. I believe it's a '93 or '94. It's very clean and I look forward to doing a Modern-Retro build. Most of these I've seen have rack mounts on the rear drops, so I'm not sure if that will identify it as a specific year or model. Can anyone give me some history on the tube set or design of this frame?


Congrats, those are one of the best looking specialized lugged steel frame IMO. Those Allez were designed by Mark DiNucci and built by Giant in Taiwan under his supervision. I want one.


----------



## PJ352

Wow, great find... congrats!!

FWIW, here's some info on Bikepedia's site:
BikePedia - 1993 Specialized Allez Comp Complete Bicycle


----------



## [email protected]

*some specialized aiiez info!!!*

Thanks for all the great imfo!!! I've owned an allez for awhile great bike!!!!I'ts a tim neeman??? Excellent has survived well.It has 3rensho tubing stickers? Any idea what tubing


----------



## djmuff

This seems to be the thread for retro Allez, so here's an Allez Epic I picked up not long ago. I still want an old steel Allez, but this one is in great shape, and still had the complete 105 gruppo. Pretty sure it's a 1990.

View attachment 248575


----------



## aptivaboy

Nice! I remember those when they first came out. Is the fork steel or aluminum, out of curiosity? If it is aluminum, how does it ride? Aluminum forks from that era weren't known for stiffness. 

Robert


----------



## Dave Hickey

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for all the great imfo!!! I've owned an allez for awhile great bike!!!!I'ts a tim neeman??? Excellent has survived well.It has 3rensho tubing stickers? Any idea what tubing


3Rensho tubing with a special version of Ishiwata tubing


----------



## RacerOne

Great thread, just to throw another one in here, my 1991 Sirrus Triple:


----------



## rodneyleon

*1989 Sirrus*

I'll play - Party like it's 1989.


----------



## jerrycan42

88 allez...for riding hard

<img src="https://i.imgur.com/xOwPbl.jpg"/>

<img src="https://i.imgur.com/ANkKhl.jpg" />

https://i.imgur.com/xOwPb.jpg


----------



## jayonabicycle

*My Mystery Bicycle*

I have searched the web and posts like this one, but I have been unable to find information or a single picture regarding my Specialized Team Allez. It is made in Taiwan, has direct-drive racing decals, and has an aluminum fork. It has full Shimano Ultegra 600 components, including hubs, which may not be original. Rims are Mavic Open 4CD made in France. If anyone has any information regarding my bicycle I would appreciate it. It rides great and weighs about 20lbs.


----------



## JaeP

*Thread Dredge*

My 60cm 86 Allez SE. The original owner removed the stickers except the Specialized S behind the seat tube. Original Suntour Superbe Pro components too. I'll swap out the Specialized cranks for a longer 180mm Dura Ace 7400.

Thinking of having her repainted with correct decals and "Marcus Summers" on the top tube, just for fun.


----------



## pennyfarmer

1991 Allez. I bought this new in 1992 and got a good deal on it from the LBS. About 2 months after I bought it I left for Boot Camp. This does not have many miles on it but it has been stored in average conditions. So far just new tires and swapped seats with my commuter when it got a new seat.


----------



## atacamar

pennyfarmer said:


> 1991 Allez. I bought this new in 1992 and got a good deal on it from the LBS. About 2 months after I bought it I left for Boot Camp. This does not have many miles on it but it has been stored in average conditions. So far just new tires and swapped seats with my commuter when it got a new seat.


nice, my allez is close to yours. I picked it up new in 94 and I believe it is a '93. It has an aluminum fork, says direct drive on fork, designed in california on frame. 

It's all stock except for new black bar tape (was white/ or white/speckled with grey i can't remember) and some new tires/tubes. It came with campagnolo components. I'm currently putting some shimano 105 stuff on it and a new wheelset to update it a bit so I can use it in a few triathlons. As pictured it weighs 25lbs 9oz (weighed at local bike shop, sans water bottle, but with spare tube/tools) People always asked if I'll get rid of it because they'd buy but I keep saying no. pretty sure I won't sell at this point.

not the best pic but all i have on me.


----------



## tztag

Late Carbon Epic, still going strong and rides great:


----------



## Wooga

Great thread....glad i found it. I picked up a 91 or 92 Allez Epic Carbon (black & yellow lugged) a couple of Months ago for $150. My 1st road bike. It needed bar tape and tires. I have rode it for just under 1000 miles already. I did a Metric with it a couple of weeks ago and will be doing a full Century on it next month. Only thing I don’t like is the down tube shifters….but like I said. It’s my 1st road bike!


----------



## EdRoche

jkp said:


> I have one that I have ridden sparingly for several years. I`m no lite weight, and it hasn`t come apart on me. I did add an early TIME carbon fork to it- the carbon fork complimented the carbon frame nicely, for a further enhanced ride. I`ve been told the one that were going to come apart did so early on, those that survived should not be a worry. JKP


Please all share your experiences with this frame. I am conducting some safety research to see if the surviving frames from the early '90s are AOK or if some people are still experiencing separation at the lugs. It﻿ will be important for all us Epic owners. Pls help by completing the short survey - join the fb group 'Vintage Specialized Allez Epic Road Bikes'. 

Thanks﻿
Ed


----------



## EdRoche

*Allez epic 1989*

View attachment 280192
View attachment 280193


Pretty original bike. Custom wheels, campag omega with phil woods hubs.


----------



## Henry7

I couldn't find the FB group by that name, but as the owner of a epic allez (probably 1991) carbon I would be very interested in the results. I have had no problems until today when I noticed separation between the bottom bracket and chain stays - which led me to this forum. What were the results of your survey ?


----------



## EdRoche

Henry7 said:


> I couldn't find the FB group by that name, but as the owner of a epic allez (probably 1991) carbon I would be very interested in the results. I have had no problems until today when I noticed separation between the bottom bracket and chain stays - which led me to this forum. What were the results of your survey ?


Hi there

Just 4 people responded to that survey so nothing much to learn. Log into Facebook and search for 'vintage specialized allez epic road bike' group. Pictures of your frame and separation are very rare so pls do share it! As far as I have researched, it was only the first batch of the first edition that had this problem. How long have you been riding this bike? The survey is still open if you can add to it. Thanks


----------



## Henry7

*Photos, vintage specialized allez epic road bike*

I know almost nothing of facebook... when I search on that string within Facebook I get lots of web links, but nothing leading to a group. However,all my photos are here
and you are welcome to repost them where you wish.

The bottom bracket/chain stays seemed repairable, but the photo of the top tube/seat tube bracket convinced the shop I consulted that it was going to get worse over time, and a repair attempt was probably not well advised. 

Anybody got a 60cm Specialized Epic Allez frame that is NOT from the first batch of the first edition need rid of ? 




EdRoche said:


> Hi there
> 
> Just 4 people responded to that survey so nothing much to learn. Log into Facebook and search for 'vintage specialized allez epic road bike' group. Pictures of your frame and separation are very rare so pls do share it! As far as I have researched, it was only the first batch of the first edition that had this problem. How long have you been riding this bike? The survey is still open if you can add to it. Thanks


----------



## EdRoche

Henry7 said:


> I know almost nothing of facebook... when I search on that string within Facebook I get lots of web links, but nothing leading to a group. However,all my photos are here
> and you are welcome to repost them where you wish.
> 
> The bottom bracket/chain stays seemed repairable, but the photo of the top tube/seat tube bracket convinced the shop I consulted that it was going to get worse over time, and a repair attempt was probably not well advised.
> 
> Anybody got a 60cm Specialized Epic Allez frame that is NOT from the first batch of the first edition need rid of ?


Thanks man. Definitely do the survey if you have 2 minutes, it has questions that will help others including myself Vintage Specialized Allez Epic Road Bikes - Survey powered by eSurveysPro.com

Is your frame the one with the yellow and purple stickers?

Thanks


----------



## EdRoche

Here is a facebook group for Epic allez owners, specifically the carbon frames. https://www.facebook.com/groups/VintageSpecializedAllezEpicRoadBikes/


----------



## Henry7

yes, yellow and purple stickers. I filled out the survey, hope it helps. I have had that frame since 1996... kind of surprised it would fail now.


----------



## kris7047th

I just saw a pretty beat up OLD Specialized at the grocery store today. The owner was leaving around the same time as me and he told me it was about 20 years old .. grey frame with orange lettering (I can't remember the model name) but the bike had mustache bars which could have replace the original ones.


----------



## alxxg

picked up an epic from ebay for $88 back in May , possibly a 93/94 model

Needs a clean and new gear cables otherwise in good nick.

I'll have to take a few pictures


----------



## JetSpeed

alxxg said:


> picked up an epic from ebay for $88 back in May , possibly a 93/94 model
> 
> Needs a clean and new gear cables otherwise in good nick.
> 
> I'll have to take a few pictures


Please post your pics! I have a 91' Epic in mint condition which was my first love.


----------



## rufus

kris7047th said:


> I just saw a pretty beat up OLD Specialized at the grocery store today. The owner was leaving around the same time as me and he told me it was about 20 years old .. grey frame with orange lettering (I can't remember the model name) but the bike had mustache bars which could have replace the original ones.


Sounds like a 1991 Stumpjumper Comp.


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## aptivaboy

tztag, that's a beautiful Allez Epic! 

A query on the carbon Allezs - were the Epics and Comps the same frame underneath the paint and decals? I think they were, with just the components being different, but I thought I'd ask. 

Also, to go back to a question I posed in this thread a long tinme back, was the Sirrus simply a redecaled steel Allez SE? I think it was, at least the first year or two of 1980s Sirrus production. The Allez started out as the top of the heap, but the carbon Allezs soon took that mantle. The steel Allez SEs started disappearing, but right about that time the virtually identical (under the paint) Sirrus showed up. From examining photos, the Sirrus appears to have had the same lugs, small hardware bits, etc., as my Allez SE. So, was the Sirrus simply the new name for the SE? According to this link (Sirrus & Allez | Specialized Catalogue 1989 | Retrobike), they look pretty darned near the same sans components. 

Thoughts? 

Robert


----------



## aptivaboy

A slight update, Going from photos, the only real difference I can see between the early Sirruses and the Allez SE is the bottom bracket shell. The SE had over the bracket cable mounts, while the Sirrus had an under the bracket arrangement from the beginning, That may explain the different bottom bracket shells. Otherwise, all hardware (chain hangar, pump peg, shifter bosses, top tube brake cable braze ons,) appear identical. So too do the lugs, apart from the bottom bracket shell, as far as I can tell from photos on the interweb. Once the Allez SE dropped from the lineup, it looks like the first couple of Sirrus years and the regular Allez had identical doohickies (see link above). Could any of our Specialized gurus weigh in on this? 

Many thanks, 

Robert, who is eyeing a Sirrus up for sale as I type.


----------



## sirclicksalot

Hello all, new (old) Allez owner here, and hoping to get some help on ID'ing it. I've done some basic work, but having some trouble pinning it down exactly. Here's what I have found:

Here are pics I took right after getting the bike: 

























































The bike is IMMACULATE, even has the original Specialized Turbo/S tires (no cracks in the sidewalls, this thing must have seen almost no sunlight). However, I'm pretty sure it's a mix of original and added (marked with a *, to the best of my knowledge) parts, listed below:

-Shimano lugs (at least the front is stamped, I don't see a stamp on the rear, but it's not the chromed campy drops)
-Dura-Ace headset
-Cinelli stem & bars*
-Didn't come with brakes/levers
-Specialized hubs/Saturnae HC-20 rims/Specialized Turbo/S Tires
-Shimano BB-7400 bottom bracket
-Campy Strada Nuovo Record Cranks*
-Front and rear Nuovo Record deraileurs*
-Record seatpost*

So I'm 99% sure it's not a 3Rensho. It doesn't have the tubing sticker anymore, but the guy I bought it from said he took it off, and he thinks it said Tange (almost certainly did)

The BB shell is stamped with an EO Medalist, but also has a serial number of 8602004.

It has the Allez on the downtube, S logo on the headtube, and S logo on the back of the seattube. No markings/"designed by" decals on the chainstays.

Sloping fork crown, no offset.

I'm putting it at 83-85, but anyone who can pin it down definitively (Tim? You still in here?)  , I'd greatly appreciate it.


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## aptivaboy

Your gallery isn't coming up. I won' t load. What color is the bike? The rear spread may give an approximate date, too. My '86 has a 126 mm rear spread.


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## sirclicksalot

Added the pics directly. As you can see, the classic red. Mine is 126mm as well.


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## sirclicksalot

*edit* DERP. FORUMS POSTIGN R HARD. :mad2:

Added the pics directly; as you can see it's the classic red. 126mm rear spacing as well.


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## aptivaboy

Definitely 1986 or earlier from the over the bracket cable mounts. The rear spread would suggest something around that date, as well. I'd say a year or two earlier, though, due to the fork crown and especially the treatment of the inner blades. The Allezs tended not to have that extension with the three progressively smaller circles; certainly my '86 SE doesn't. Its also interesting that it lacks a pump peg braze on, although there is certainly room for one. I'm going to say '85 or '84, without the benefit of a catalog in front of me, and likely a Tange tubed standard Allez. I'm not a Yoshi Konno/3Rensho expert by any means, but I seem to recall that his Allezs had longer, pointier lugs which were heavily thinned. I'm sure others will know more.

Robert


----------



## sirclicksalot

Well, it's hard to see because a) the closeup pic if the headtube is blurry, and b) is a tiny nub of one, but there is a pump peg there.

Was there a full version / SE designation split before 86?

The guy I bought it from swore it was handmade in California, but then he also swore it was from the first year of production, and I've seen/read enough to know the latter isn't true of this frame, so I'm guessing the former is bunk as well. But yeah, the fork lugs and the combo of a serial # plus the EO medalist BB shell makes this frame a little different than some of the specs I've heard described online


----------



## aptivaboy

The Allez SE was certainly around by 1985 (Specialized Catalogue 1985 | Catalogues | Retrobike). Whether it was around earlier, I know not.

The fork crown side cut outs on your Allez look different from the one in the 1985 catalog. The catalog Allez also appears to have chromed dropouts, so assuming that all 1985 Allezs came that way, your's maybe slightly earlier or later as it doesn't seem to have chroming. Access to some Specialized catalogs would likely answer the question, but finding those earlier ones online seems to be hard. What does interest me is that your serial number literally starts with "86." Could it actually be that simple? 

Robert


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## sirclicksalot

You know, based on this thread over at bikeforums.net, you're probably right, it is that simple.

If anyone has a scan or copy of the 1986 Specialized catalog, I'd love to know for sure.


----------



## aptivaboy

Apparently, modern Specialized serials literally mean nothing. When people call them asking for info, they're told that they can't even bring up the production bloc and model type from it. I don't really believe that, but there are a number of threads on the interweb attesting to what Specialized folks have told them. I'm guessing that the older Allezs had serials that actually made sense?


----------



## sirclicksalot

Well, considering that the large majority of posts I see about these frames from this era always say that there are no serial numbers at all, at least for the 3rensho Models, I'd say it's likely that the older ones might have the same disregard for serial numbers.


----------



## velodog

aptivaboy said:


> I'm not a Yoshi Konno/3Rensho expert by any means, but I seem to recall that his Allezs had longer, pointier lugs which were heavily thinned. I'm sure others will know more.
> 
> Robert


Here's some info on how to tell them apart.

3Rensho: Specialized Allez- 3Rensho built


----------



## sirclicksalot

Good info, but any idea how to ID the bike I'm taking about? I mean, those 3Rensho Allez's are sweet, but if anyone who can internet hasn't figured out they have a 3rensho Allez it's either really bad at Google, our has very few f**ks to give

*edit* Apologies, I was feeling a) a little grumpy after Boston lost game 3 on an *obstruction call*, and b) drunk. Any helpful comments on internet forums need to be appreciated and nutured, to combat GIFT.


----------



## cobrapatrol

sirclicksalot said:


> You know, based on this thread over at bikeforums.net, you're probably right, it is that simple.
> 
> If anyone has a scan or copy of the 1986 Specialized catalog, I'd love to know for sure.


Yes, yours is the top-of-the line 86 Allez (not an SE). It should have had a more identifiable name like "Pro" but it was just "Allez". It is identifiable by the fork crown cutouts, which are a different shape than the SE. Also the EO Medalist bottom bracket. It should be Tange Prestige tubing and you should get a very satisifying "ting" when you tap the top tube. In 1985 this model came with Campy dropouts but in 1986 it was switched over to Shimano EF dropouts. The '85 model was spec'ed to come with Campy NR and the '86 was spec'ed with "new" Dura-Ace, which became the 7400 series. Your bike seems to be transitional between the specs. I don't know the builder, wish I did, but it is one helluva nice bike and I am envious! Honestly, the '86 catalog may not show you the exact bike you have.

I like this particular model of Allez because it played a part in the movie "American Flyer" but more important, when Specialized formed the neutral support team to support the American Pro races like the '86 Coors Classic, it was this Allez that was there for the racers to use. So it was the first "Pro Peloton" bike from Specialized. As far as I'm concerned, it was an important milestone in the young company's development.

Also, those Specialized hubs are pretty unique. They should have chrome lock nuts and are called "Stage - Racing." They were quite smooth, having a unique sealing system while still being a low-friction ball & cone mechanism.
Congratulations!


----------



## sirclicksalot

Wow. You just made my day. :-D 

Thanks so much for all the info. It's also good to know that I wasn't just failing in my Google-Fu, and that there is some slightly odd, transitional stuff about this bike.

How is it that you have come to be so wise in the ways of The Allez? *cue dramatic kung-fu movie music*.


----------



## cobrapatrol

Oh, I don't know. Just interested in the same sort of bike. I'm searching for one to buy in my size, 58cm. Here's a pic from Nevada City 1985. That's Bill Woodul behind the bikes.









Photo courtesy of Velo Vecchio the Tour of Nevada City


----------



## karld

Just found this forum! I bought my '91 or '92 Allez Epic (Shimano 105) when it was 6 months old. It came out of my storage shed earlier this year and I've done about 1000 miles since. It was laid-up for about 15 years. All original (including the "turbo" seat!), except the pedals, plus I just replaced the front Wolber rim with a cheap black Alex rim, following a crash.


----------



## dgilber

*Its a 1986 Allez*

Hi,
Your bike is a 1986 Allez (not the SE model). Like another poster here said, its made with Tange Prestige tubing. I worked for a Spec. dealer in the summer of 1986 and word came from Specialized that these frames were going to be available on the cheap. I put my name in, but they were apparently gone by the time my shop responded. The memory of the missed opportunity still lingers!  The framesets were to have been delivered with the Dura ace 7400 headset and Botttom bracket installed. No other parts. Here is a link to the brochure: 

Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

Details that made them unique: very short point lugs that were different than used on any of the SE's or 3Rensho's. Tangs on the fork crown extending down the legs. I would call it a nice build, but not a truly fine handbuilt in regards to details: little hand filing, seatstay to dropout junctures show joint lines and are not finely finished or scalloped. Still a really nice historical Allez that may have been handbuilt or partially handbuilt without the extra file work. 

As to who made them?? Definitely not 3Rensho. I can say what it is not (3Rensho or SE model), but not who built it or where. 

I own a blue 1986 SE that was originally Shimano 600EX SIS equiped, and a earliest of early 3Rensho model with blank seatstay caps. 

Cheers


----------



## velodog

dgilber said:


> I own a blue 1986 SE that was originally Shimano 600EX SIS equiped, and a earliest of early 3Rensho model with blank seatstay caps.
> 
> Cheers


pictures?


----------



## sirclicksalot

dgilber said:


> The framesets were to have been delivered with the Dura ace 7400 headset and Botttom bracket installed. No other parts.


Oh man, that makes me so happy. I've been a bit torn about replacing the drivetrain because it might have been "original" rrr:. However, I would have to agree with what Frank Berto (supposedly) said, namely that the Nuovo Record RD is so well made, "[it] will shift badly forever." THE HUNT IS ON FOR A 7400 GROUP!



> Still a really nice historical Allez that may have been handbuilt or partially handbuilt without the extra file work.


And thank you again, because I was a bit nervous that maybe it should be hanging on a wall, when all it wants is to be ridden.


----------



## sirclicksalot

dgilber said:


> Still a really nice historical Allez...


I whole-heartedly agree, and as I realized all I have posted here is just the tear-apart photos, something a bit more picturesque:










Yep, she makes me happy.


----------



## aptivaboy

Well, I think I just confirmed the above post. I was able to snag a good 1989 Sirrus off of the Bay of Evil. It was the first year Specialized made the Sirrus. Whatever the Sirrus became later, in 1989 it was a serious racing machine. It is indeed virtually identical to the Allez SE. Everything but the bottom bracket shell and unicrown fork are the same. Seriously, the same exact braze ons, right down to the pump peg, the same drop outs, brake bridge, lugs, everything. The only real difference is that the Sirrus's head tube lugs have some letters and numbers engraved in their undersides, probably part numbers, that aren't on my 1986 Allez SE, but again, the lugs themselves look identical. 

The 1989 catalog indicates that the Allez and Sirrus all used identical tubing and braze ons, and had the same geometry, so it does look like the Sirrus is just a redecaled Allez SE (to me, at least!). 

Now, what to build it up with? It has that red to off white/cream color scheme. A full Sante gruppo would look outstanding, but I'm too poor right now. Give it some time! 

Robert, who finally snagged the Sirrus from October. I can't believe it lasted that long!


----------



## sirclicksalot

Hey, anyone here who is following this thread, 6'+, and in the PDX area...

Specialized Allez Epic, 60CM

Not too shabby.


----------



## cobrapatrol

Yeah, that's a pretty nice looking Epic in my size. I hope someone will buy it that is really looking for one.


----------



## Mountaindave

New to this forum, but not new to Specialized bikes!

I was exstatic to find this thread and to see this thread has lasted so long! Wish Bryant and Tim would check back in and speak up on the "Sirrus mystery." 

I have just a bit to contribute:



aptivaboy said:


> Well, I think I just confirmed the above post. I was able to snag a good 1989 Sirrus off of the Bay of Evil. It was the first year Specialized made the Sirrus.


The Sirrus actually appears to have arrived by at least 1987, but I cannot find a catalog to verify this. Check this a bikeforum member's "1987 Sirrus." There is an incomplete list of Specialized catalogs over on Retrobike. (Again, some insight from Tim or Bryant would really help here).



> The 1989 catalog indicates that the Allez and Sirrus all used identical tubing and braze ons, and had the same geometry...(snip)...It has that red to off white/cream color scheme.


I have read that the late 80's Allez and Sirrus (once the Allez Epic was introduced in 1988) are in fact the same frame, some claim it was Tange tubing. Looking at the 1988 catalog, they at least have the exact same dimensions (look at the bottom right frame geometries):







However, these could just be internet rumors so I want to be sure to offer the caveat that I have no first-hand verification for this - only that they share the same geometry and are both described as "double butted chromoly frames with investment cast lugs."

Myself, I have a 1988 61cm Specialized that I bought as my first (and still my best) bike back in 1990 in high school:








As well as a 1985 50cm Special Allez SE that I picked up at a thrift store this weekend (kudos to my buddy for tipping me off as he knows I love old steel bikes):








This one will be for my wife as it should fit her nearly perfectly. It has all the original Suntour Superbe group in good condition. The hubs even still spin like silk! Love the vintage Benotto handlebar tape. 

I would add one final thought, aptivaboy, I would agree that it seems the Sirrus took the place of the Allez SE as second in the lineup of steel-framed Specialized bikes. However, I did see a photo of what was claimed to be a 1987 Specialized catalog showing an Allez SE... so who knows.

Best, 

MD


----------



## aptivaboy

Beautiful bikes! I never get tired of seeing steel Specialized steeds. I almost snagged a Merz or 3Rensho Allez once (hard to tell from the pics, but it wasn't a standard Allez), and still regret not sticking around for the finish of the Ebay auction. Sigh...

The Specialized designers said earlier in the thread that the tubing may have some from a variety of Japanese tubing manufacturers and was possibly finished by Tange and perhaps others. When they moved production to Taiwan, that may have changed. Barring internal company documents coming out, that's probably about as much information as we're likely to get. 

Be careful with the geometry. At some point, the Sirrus was given a more touring geometry. It lost the racing geometry that had made it successful and got dropout eyelets and a more relaxed ride. I'm not sure quite when the changeover occurred, but likely around 1992-93, or so, give or take a year. Your's looks to have the race geometry like the Allezs, but at some point it did change. 

_However, these could just be internet rumors so I want to be sure to offer the caveat that I have no first-hand verification for this - only that they share the same geometry and are both described as "double butted chromoly frames with investment cast lugs."_

Having put the Sirrus literally side by side with my '86 Allez Se, they are the same, right down to the lugs and the hardware (mostly). The only visible construction differences are the fork crown (semi-sloping on the SE, unicrown on the Sirrus), and the bottom bracket and cable guides (over the bracket on the SE, under the bracket on the Sirrus, which changed the position of the identical cable eyelets). Otherwise, materiel-wise they're virtually identical. Unless someone can verify that they used different tubing, I'd say they are the same frame. And, even if the tubing did come from different sources, metallurgically it was likely made to the same specs, based upon what was said previously in the thread. I'll post some pictures if anyone would like to see the side by side comparison - the same right down to the pump peg and chain hangar. 

Robert


----------



## kilojoolz

*What year/who made my Allez?*

Hello! I have an old Specialized Allez Team that I have been building up as a single speed. It came to me for free, and trying to figure out how old it is has inspired an admiration for Specialized Allezs and their enthusiastic fanbase! I am not experienced identifying the age of old bikes, and I haven't been able to figure out too much info on this model. Hopefully I'll do a fair job of including some identifying features, and maybe someone will have some insight! Either way, it seems as though pictures of vintage Allezs are welcome here, so enjoy!


















































It seems like the placement/font of the decals aligns with the 1993-ish era, but I don't know how to verify that. The decal on the fork says "direct drive aluminum." Apologies for the strange angle of the photos - the bike is hanging vertically on my wall, but I assume that viewing the bike horizontally would be easier on the eyes.


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## UPSed

Check www.bikepedia.com
Should have a good chance of narrowing it down.


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## rufus

Yes, the Sirrus debuted in 1987. I think the last steel Allez of this era was in 1989 or 1990. 
And yes, for that time period, the Allez and Sirrus were the same frame, differentiated by component spec.

The Allez name lived on as the lugged carbon frame, until steel Allez's were reintroduced sometime around 1995-96. 
The blue and white bike looks to be from that era, as the decal font and the aluminum fork are a dead giveaway,
but I don't recall that exact color combo in my memory. 

The Sirrus geometry did change, I think in 1990, but only went from parallel 74* angles to 73*, so hardly put it in the area of a 
touring bike. Just a hair slacker and maybe a bit more forgiving as a result.


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## jsouther

Thought I'd add my late model Epic Carbon to the thread. Love this bike. Here is the before pic when it arrived and after. After pic is was taken before I found some anodized blue Cinelli Spinachi lite bars.


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## SpecializedLA

*Specialized Allez serial 8602037*



sirclicksalot;4487068
The BB shell is stamped with an EO Medalist said:


> Have you found any more information about the bike? I'm curious as to the sizing, I have recently purchased a very similar bike with the serial 8602037; very close to yours! Mine is also stamped EO medalist, but has a different colored fork crown; the top is chrome, but the bottom one is black, as shown in my pictures
> 
> What does this mean? i'm quite the novice when it comes to identifying bikes, but this one is interesting in its size as well; i'm pretty tall at 6'4 with a 36.5" inseam, and this fits me very well; the frame is 62cm with 180mm crank arms, and the back wheel spacing seems to also be 129-130mm
> 
> This seems quite a bit larger than most of the specialized i've seen.
> 
> The lugs on the front end are close to the shorter thick lugs i've seen on the standardized allez picture, and the rear dropouts are painted unlike the 3rensho.
> 
> Any other information that can be provided? a potential value of the bike?


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## sirclicksalot

SpecializedLA said:


> a different colored fork crown; the top is chrome, but the bottom one is black, as shown in my pictures


Just a quick terminology correction; what you're talking about here are your headset cups/races. The fork crown is the metal part of the fork assembly that has the triangle cutouts in your pictures, and the actual arms of the fork are known as the blades. A "fork crown" is basically a one-piece bridge + 2xlugs, connected to a steerer tube.


SpecializedLA said:


> What does this mean?


Well, what does it *all mean,* really? 

Based on those #'s, it's probably a 23" frame. Specialized used inches for their sizing, something that's probably due to the fact that most of their catalog was MTB. Mine is A 19", with just about 30" SO height.



SpecializedLA said:


> This seems quite a bit larger than most of the specialized i've seen.


Yer damned tootin' it is.



SpecializedLA said:


> The lugs on the front end are close to the shorter thick lugs i've seen on the standardized allez picture, and the rear dropouts are painted unlike the 3rensho.


Definitely not a 3Rensho. The lugs are probably Shimano, as mine are. Some 3Rensho Allez had Campy lugs, but the one on the 3R in the pic you provided are Shimano, so it varies. However, the lugs on your bike are cast, not stamped, so even if they don't have the fancy shiny face, they are still quality.



SpecializedLA said:


> Any other information that can be provided? a potential value of the bike?


Well, Cobrapatrol came to my rescue on the final ID of my Allez. I'm guessing you might have one of the same "dealer-only" frames, although it's hard to tell from the pics you provided. Also, the headset races aren't the same. Does your fork crown have 3 circles cut out of the inside of the tangs (the pointy parts of the fork crown lugs)? If so, yep, probably an 86. You could verify further if it has a Dura Ace bottom bracket.

Value? Well, that's always subjective. But I'd guess it's in the $300-$700 range, depending on condition and groupset on it. I see some dings and rust in the shots you posted, so probably closer to the $300 side.

But I just did my first ever century on my Allez a few weeks ago. I was smokin' carbon/aluminum frames left and right. So I'd say the bike you got there is priceless. :thumbsup:


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## Hova

I picked up a 92(?) Allez off of CL last week and have been having a blast with it. Learned a bit in this thread about the early 90's production of the steel Allez at the Giant factory in Taiwan. It seems like these bikes with are underrepresented on this thread so, I'm including some pictures. I love the oversize tubing and unique lugs, particularly the seat cluster. This particular model came stock with coordinated black parts: seatpost, stem, handlebars, even the headset are all jet black. I swapped out the stem and bars for some of my favorites, but added my Modolo Speedy brakes and levers to keep things on the dark side. A great riding bike to get around the city every day.


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## Rustyframe

Was searching for info. on my '87 Sirrus when I stumbled (rather "Googled") into this forum. Bought the bike new, took it on the RAGBRAI but have ridden little the past 14 yrs... In the process of updating and adapting it for a man who isn't 40 anymore. Replacing the 52/42 Biopace with 48/38 rings. The downtube shifted 6 speed freewheel will be replaced with a 12/28 7 speed freewheel and a Shimano STI "brifter". A taller (Nitto) stem will let the old man sit up a bit.

Will find a picture.


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## paredown

For all you Specialized fans out there--the 40th Anniversary frame (by Mark Dinucci) is available on eBay.

A cool $4000 and it is yours!


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## velodog

paredown said:


> For all you Specialized fans out there--the 40th Anniversary frame (by Mark Dinucci) is available on eBay.
> 
> A cool $4000 and it is yours!
> 
> View attachment 300123


It seems to me that I read somewhere that they are only going to be offered in one size. If that's the case, it seems to me that they are being sold as wall-hangers and No Thanks to that.

I'd just as soon hand the money to Dinucci and get one with his name on it in my size. But that's just me.


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## paredown

velodog said:


> It seems to me that I read somewhere that they are only going to be offered in one size. If that's the case, it seems to me that they are being sold as wall-hangers and No Thanks to that.
> 
> I'd just as soon hand the money to Dinucci and get one with his name on it in my size. But that's just me.


Multiple sizes--although they are already sold out of 52cm. You do get a free jersey too!


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## cobrapatrol

I thought it would be nice to contribute something new to this great thread. It is my pleasure to add my new 1987 Allez SE to the thread. I found this on CL during a recent trip. It is a virtually unused example, including original tires and bar tape. Small amounts of surface rust on the chain, seat rails, pedal shafts. Interestingly, the beautiful Suntour Sprint 9000 Accushift is paired to a Sedisport chain, not a Suntour matched chain. It's would be hard to believe that the chain had been changed. Also, the receipt, owner's manual, and Accushift info card.
I think this was the first Taiwan-built year of Allez. The frame build is clean with some evidence of filing. The paint is OK but not great. I can see the evidence of Specialized personal attention to the build. I believe this bike was built by Giant, as evidenced by the serial number, GD708942, conforms to other Giant products, but I am open to other viewpoints!
IMG_5622sm by Jim Harris, on Flickr
IMG_5625sm by Jim Harris, on Flickr
IMG_5626sm by Jim Harris, on Flickr
IMG_5638sm by Jim Harris, on Flickr
IMG_5655sm by Jim Harris, on Flickr


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## paredown

I thought of this thread when Jim Merz posted a link to the last of his named frames that he built around the time that he started working full time for Specialized.

Link here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/+JimMerz/albums/6166919090966400577


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## Quattro_Assi_07

paredown said:


> I thought of this thread when Jim Merz posted a link to the last of his named frames that he built around the time that he started working full time for Specialized.
> 
> Link here:
> https://plus.google.com/photos/+JimMerz/albums/6166919090966400577
> View attachment 308599


Thanks, very good read.


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## sirclicksalot

So if anyone here on this thread is looking to buy, I'm considering selling the Allez I managed to ID in this thread. I won't spam a non-bike sale forum section with the details, but feel free to PM me directly to talk further. You can see the details of the bike here to get a sense.


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## tymncycle

Just wondering if the 83 Sequoia was sold as a frameset as well as a complete bike. I ask because I recently acquired one with parts that are not at all according to spec, but are the right period and good quality. Anyone?

Thanks!

Tim



jkp said:


> I am finding information on early Specialized roadbikes is hard to find. Here is what I have found, and hopefully others will share what they know. According to Bryant Bainbridge, Director of R&D at Specialized from 1983-1990, Tim Neenan ( Lighthouse Frames) was their first frame designer. Tim Neenan designed the Expedition after a custom touring frame he made for Mike Sinyard ( Specialized owner) . I believe Neenan was also responsible for the Sequoia model. Next frame designer was Jim Merz. The mid eighties Allez bear his name. Was there an earlier Allez that was designed by someone else? The final designer of the lugged steel era was Mark Dinucci ( associated with Strawberry cycles). I believe he was responsible for the Allez Pro and Allez Comp. According the Bryant Bainbridge, 1984 production Allez were made by Miyata, later some smaller factories. From Tim Neenan: the Expedition was made of Tange tubing, the same gauge as Columbus SP- 1mm/.7mm. I find the Specialized lugged steel frames interesting because they combine the designs of talented frame designers with the craftmanship of the Japanese and later Taiwanese builders. Can anyone add to this.


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## mml373

holamateo said:


> I have really been enjoying this thread as well. It's great to hear from the designers on how things came about. I've been riding the same 80's or early 90's Specialized road bike for 15+ years and it's still my one and only road bike - I've put thousands of miles on it and still love how it rides. As a starving student I bought the frameset used and built it up with used 105 and Ultegra parts. The lugwork looks identical to Tim and Quattro Assi's Allez photos above. Same seat stay lugs, no rack braze ons, pump pegs...except...mine has a unicrown fork. The serial number is CG0069 8H12 (but it's hard to make out the 3rd digit due to paint). It's been stripped and painted a couple times but I seem to recall it was a red and white Sirrus when I got it - but I'm not positive. If anyone can help me identify the year based on my description I'd love to learn more about the bike. Is it the same frame, geometry and tubing as the Allez?
> 
> Thanks for any insight/suggestions.


Probably an old/dead thread, but I recently acquired two vintage Specialized road bikes. The first, a 1987 Specialized Sirrus, Aqua, currently in for factory-correct repaint. The second, a 1987 Allez SE, blue. I had the pleasure of riding the Allez SE early this morning, my second ride since the bike was delivered, with my wife. I have to say, it feels more spry than the 1993 Serotta I also have and was just a pleasure to ride this morning. The other bike in my stable is a vintage 1989 Trek 2000 that I also love.

The newest bike in my stable is a 2011 vintage bike built up with SRAM Force. It is the lightest bike I have but I just never felt connected to it and am actually faster on the old Trek and probably the Allez as well. The buyer is picking it up today and I'll be riding vintage from now on, I guess. 

You just can't beat the old iron. Specialized had a great bike with the Sirrus and also the Allez line, and I suspect the Tesch Allez' were great as well. After putting thousands of miles on my '87 Sirrus (red) before I sold it years ago, I am thankful to have a duplicate in my stable now and look forward to many more miles on these two steel bikes.


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## mml373

aptivaboy said:


> Thank you for the information. I never felt like a second class citizen riding the "Special Series" tubing. The bike rode well (and, still does), was comfy and I didn't feel all beaten up after a long ride, and that was all that really mattered. I did some training rides at the Rose Bowl with Cat 1-2 racers, and it dawned on me after I learned to keep up that it was the rider who counted, not the tubing decal, and I was just a lousy Cat 4 (greats legs and engine, just NO race sense whatsoever!).
> 
> I still wish Specialized would release a retro lugged steel frame. Done right, I have to believe there would be a market for old turds like me, and for some of the younger riders who appreciate the ride qualities of a good quality steel frame.
> 
> 
> Robert


Bingo. My 1987 Allez SE is being "gifted" to my 14 year old son to ride. I will be riding a vintage 1987 Sirrus alongside him--it is the same year/model bike I had when I started racing at his age 31 years ago.


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## mml373

aptivaboy said:


> Beautiful bikes! I never get tired of seeing steel Specialized steeds. I almost snagged a Merz or 3Rensho Allez once (hard to tell from the pics, but it wasn't a standard Allez), and still regret not sticking around for the finish of the Ebay auction. Sigh...
> 
> The Specialized designers said earlier in the thread that the tubing may have some from a variety of Japanese tubing manufacturers and was possibly finished by Tange and perhaps others. When they moved production to Taiwan, that may have changed. Barring internal company documents coming out, that's probably about as much information as we're likely to get.
> 
> Be careful with the geometry. At some point, the Sirrus was given a more touring geometry. It lost the racing geometry that had made it successful and got dropout eyelets and a more relaxed ride. I'm not sure quite when the changeover occurred, but likely around 1992-93, or so, give or take a year. Your's looks to have the race geometry like the Allezs, but at some point it did change.
> 
> _However, these could just be internet rumors so I want to be sure to offer the caveat that I have no first-hand verification for this - only that they share the same geometry and are both described as "double butted chromoly frames with investment cast lugs."_
> 
> Having put the Sirrus literally side by side with my '86 Allez Se, they are the same, right down to the lugs and the hardware (mostly). The only visible construction differences are the fork crown (semi-sloping on the SE, unicrown on the Sirrus), and the bottom bracket and cable guides (over the bracket on the SE, under the bracket on the Sirrus, which changed the position of the identical cable eyelets). Otherwise, materiel-wise they're virtually identical. Unless someone can verify that they used different tubing, I'd say they are the same frame. And, even if the tubing did come from different sources, metallurgically it was likely made to the same specs, based upon what was said previously in the thread. I'll post some pictures if anyone would like to see the side by side comparison - the same right down to the pump peg and chain hangar.
> 
> Robert


I can verify...the Sirrus was available in 1987, with Shimano New 105.  I have owned 3 of them over the years...finally found one that fit.  Six speed rear mech was standard back then on these. Sweet riding bikes and identical frame to the Allez SE and Allez. OH, and on edit... I recall that the Sirrus/Allez in '87 were Tange #2 tubing. The '86 SE (I just bought one on ebay tonight!) were Specialized's special tubing as referenced elsewhere in this thread, I believe.

My '87 Sirrus is here, fresh back from paint and awaiting completion of re-hanging parts: https://forums.roadbikereview.com/b...r-1987-specialized-sirrus-project-367842.html


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## cs1

I’m actually going to see a vintage Allez. Is there a way to identify by the serial number?


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## pjstock

great thread. I haven't had time to read it all yet. But I'll throw my newly acquired Allez Pro (which led me to this thread)

steel frame, alloy fork. it's been suggested it is a Mark DiNucci design. does anyone have any other ideas?


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## happybill68

pjstock said:


> great thread. I haven't had time to read it all yet. But I'll throw my newly acquired Allez Pro (which led me to this thread)
> 
> steel frame, alloy fork. it's been suggested it is a Mark DiNucci design. does anyone have any other ideas?
> 
> View attachment 481469
> 
> View attachment 481468
> 
> View attachment 481467
> 
> View attachment 481466
> 
> View attachment 481465
> 
> View attachment 481464
> 
> View attachment 481463
> 
> View attachment 481462
> 
> View attachment 481461


I had this bike back in the early 1990’s. I want to say between 92-94. 

Great riding bike, loved mine lots. Thanks for posting 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MaxElliottBMX

Figured I'd join the party here, this is my Epic Pro, she gets lots of use!


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