# 09 105's vs. 08 Ultegra groupsets



## adauphin (Jul 31, 2009)

Both on a full carbon roadbike, casual riding, occasional sprints, pulling light trailer...am I looking at any major differences betewwn the two? Maybe in the front derail but last 105 I rode was an 03 model and they seem to be constantly improving. 

Also concerned on the crankset...mainly on stiffness than weight.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

Color and very little weight. They both do the same job and you will likely not be able to tell the difference. between them.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

adauphin said:


> Both on a full carbon roadbike, casual riding, occasional sprints, pulling light trailer...am I looking at any major differences betewwn the two? Maybe in the front derail but last 105 I rode was an 03 model and* they seem to be constantly improving*.
> 
> Also concerned on the crankset...mainly on stiffness than weight.


Improving what?


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## adauphin (Jul 31, 2009)

Beats me  seems to be the consensus though...whether it's weight or whatever little changes they make....materials, not too sure.

My wifey's OCR1 w/ full 105 works as good as the tarmac I rode, just curious on the Ultegra if it's worth the switch to a comparable bike. Both bikes change gears fine...I guess longeviety is more what i'm after and crank flex if it's even a concern, weight is negligable.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

adauphin said:


> Beats me  seems to be the consensus though...whether it's weight or whatever little changes they make....materials, not too sure.
> 
> My wifey's OCR1 w/ full 105 works as good as the tarmac I rode, just curious on the Ultegra if it's worth the switch to a comparable bike. Both bikes change gears fine...I guess longeviety is more what i'm after and crank flex if it's even a concern, weight is negligable.


Well, as for longevity, they 105 will last just as long, if not longer. Lighter components don't last longer. Think about it,


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Sounds like you already know the answer and just want confirmation. Also, I was told by the LBS that you shouldn't pull a trailer with a carbon frame. I ended up buying a back up bike because of this. The stresses from the trailer and the constant lateral motions of the trailer can cause frame failure is what I was told.


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## paulrad9 (Sep 25, 2005)

adauphin said:


> Both on a full carbon roadbike, casual riding, occasional sprints, pulling light trailer


Yeah, but do you sprint with the trailer?


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## nony (Oct 26, 2008)

I just had two 105 10-speed shifters fail on me. Both on the left shifter. There seems to be a bad batch of them going around. That alone would make me consider Ultegra over 105 if I had to choose a group again. Otherwise, I've been happy with 105. Going on my 3rd shifter and crossing my fingers.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

nony said:


> I just had two 105 10-speed shifters fail on me. Both on the left shifter. There seems to be a bad batch of them going around. That alone would make me consider Ultegra over 105 if I had to choose a group again. Otherwise, I've been happy with 105. Going on my 3rd shifter and crossing my fingers.


This is really like saying because Shimano Ultegra 6500 9 speed shifters had a high failure rate that it would be enough for me to move to 105 or Dura Ace. Many people had no issues with the 6500s. I use 105 on my commuter bike and it has been flawless for the last 12,000 miles.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

terbennett said:


> This is really like saying because Shimano Ultegra 6500 9 speed shifters had a high failure rate that it would be enough for me to move to 105 or Dura Ace. Many people had no issues with the 6500s. I use 105 on my commuter bike and it has been flawless for the last 12,000 miles.


That isn't a fair analogy because there is a specific issue with the 105. This is that the exact same 105 left shifter is used for both double and triple configurations. Shimano decided only to make a triple version of the 105 left shifter to cut costs. When it is used in a double configuration the highest shift positions are intended to be unused and unavailable. When set up correctly this works fine. When set up incorrectly (e.g. due to cable stretch or sub-optimal FD upper limit), the rider can "over-shift" into the 3'rd position leading to excessive cable tension and undue strain on the internal shifter mechanism. Often the shifter jams in this state, and sometimes it breaks when the rider applies even more force to get out of the jam. Shimano has been quietly RMA'ing failed 105 left shifters in their warranty period. It may be that Shimano has made a running change to the 105 design to reduce the failure rate, but as far as I am aware they have not yet gone as far as making separate double and triple versions.

The Ultegra left shifter comes in double and triple variants, and is spec'd accordingly on bikes. It therefore does not have this issue, except where someone has deliberately set up a triple shifter for use as double, and even then the Ultegra internals seem to be more resilient in the failure mode.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

ukbloke said:


> That isn't a fair analogy because there is a specific issue with the 105. This is that the exact same 105 left shifter is used for both double and triple configurations. Shimano decided only to make a triple version of the 105 left shifter to cut costs. When it is used in a double configuration the highest shift positions are intended to be unused and unavailable. When set up correctly this works fine. When set up incorrectly (e.g. due to cable stretch or sub-optimal FD upper limit), the rider can "over-shift" into the 3'rd position leading to excessive cable tension and undue strain on the internal shifter mechanism. Often the shifter jams in this state, and sometimes it breaks when the rider applies even more force to get out of the jam. Shimano has been quietly RMA'ing failed 105 left shifters in their warranty period. It may be that Shimano has made a running change to the 105 design to reduce the failure rate, but as far as I am aware they have not yet gone as far as making separate double and triple versions.
> 
> The Ultegra left shifter comes in double and triple variants, and is spec'd accordingly on bikes. It therefore does not have this issue, except where someone has deliberately set up a triple shifter for use as double, and even then the Ultegra internals seem to be more resilient in the failure mode.



I understand the difference between the Ultegras and the 105s but like you said, "when set up correctly this works fine." That means that it's not shifter error. Shimano did it to cut costs but it also means that if it was set up correctly, the problem is much less likely to occur. They did sell a component that can be tuned to work as it should and without trouble. I leanred a long time a few years back that not all bike mechanics no what they are doing when I switched from a 7 speed set up to a 9 speed set up on an old Trek I used to own. Not only that, any bike mechanic who wasn't aware of that shouldn't be touching your bike. You probably learned about it when you had the first failure. Safe to assume that the mechanic would know, but they don't always do. Mechanic's fault.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

terbennett said:


> I understand the difference between the Ultegras and the 105s but like you said, "when set up correctly this works fine." That means that it's not shifter error.


Nonetheless, it is still a valid reason to pick the Ultegras over the 105s. This is hardly an isolated incident - there are plenty of hits if you search google for "jammed 105 shifter".


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't mean to hijack the O.P.'s original thread, but this last exchange got me wondering (since I too have 105) if there is a way to tell whether if the 105s on a bike are the 2/3s in question or not?


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Opus51569 said:


> I don't mean to hijack the O.P.'s original thread, but this last exchange got me wondering (since I too have 105) if there is a way to tell whether if the 105s on a bike are the 2/3s in question or not?



All 105 5600s are 2/3s. It happens frequently because they are setup poorly frequently. I am on my third bike equipped with 5600 and none have ever given me problems. Find a mechanic that realy knows how to do the adjustments and the problem is solved. They will be trouble free. Tiagra have always been a solid setup that way and it works well on that group. Again I think it's mechanic error. Sure Shimano could improve on it by making specific shifters for each setup but the current line does trouble-free well with accurate tuning. Again, mechanic error. Maybe you're right. with Ultegra, there's more room for error and that might be enough to warrant it.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

terbennett said:


> Again I think it's mechanic error. Sure Shimano could improve on it by making specific shifters for each setup but the current line does trouble-free well with accurate tuning. Again, mechanic error. Maybe you're right. with Ultegra, there's more room for error and that might be enough to warrant it.


Sorry to harp on about this. A common situation is that the FD is set up perfectly well by the LBS mechanic, but then due to cable stretch or other component wear or fiddling by a novice rider, the set-up goes out of tune and the rider end ups in this situation. The narrower tuning tolerance, the jammed shifter, and the potential catastrophic failure mode are all features of the 105 triple-as-a-double that are not features when using a double left shifter. The fact that 105s are failing so often make me think that there is some additional weakness in its design.

I'm glad that it is working for you and that may be due to how well you set-up and maintain your bike. And presumably it is working for many 1000's of other riders who aren't even aware of the issue. But for the unfortunate few who break them, they need to follow up vigorously with the bike store and Shimano to get it fixed under warranty, and having this information out there on the web will hopefully convince the LBS that it isn't all "user error". There's another current thread on this over here including some interesting data from frdfandc who works in a bike store.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Do I have this straight? You currently have 105 and want to replace it with Ultegra with longevity being your main consideration.

That doesn't make much sense to me. The best couse of action for longevity is to use what you have until it dies, THEN replace it with Ultegra. By pro-actively replacing 105 for longevity reasons all you're doing is taking the same investment and throwing out many thousand miles worth of usability left on the 105 stuff. (and that's assuming Ultegra does last longer which may or may not be the case)
I suppose you could factor in getting a few buck on Ebay for the 105 stuff but still.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

ukbloke said:


> I'm glad that it is working for you and that may be due to how well you set-up and maintain your bike. And presumably it is working for many 1000's of other riders who aren't even aware of the issue. But for the unfortunate few who break them, they need to follow up vigorously with the bike store and Shimano to get it fixed under warranty, and having this information out there on the web will hopefully convince the LBS that it isn't all "user error". There's another current thread on this over here including some interesting data from frdfandc who works in a bike store.


My apologies. You are right. In fact, I remember that the old 9speed 105 shifters had two separate shifters for the double and triple setups. I've always been a fan of Shimano 105 (eventhough I have owned an ultegra and three Dura Ace equipped bikes) and used it back when I used to race all the way up to CAT 3. There is an underlying problem with these shifters when used in the double configuration. Still use them until they break.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Appreciated! Thanks for setting the record straight.


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## macbugs (Jul 12, 2004)

*Another broken 105*

Broke it this morning, jammed shifter with a piece of broken pawl that fell out when I took the shifter off the bike.


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## kata (Dec 12, 2005)

terbennett said:


> All 105 5600s are 2/3s. It happens frequently because they are setup poorly frequently. I am on my third bike equipped with 5600 and none have ever given me problems. Find a mechanic that realy knows how to do the adjustments and the problem is solved. They will be trouble free. Tiagra have always been a solid setup that way and it works well on that group. Again I think it's mechanic error. Sure Shimano could improve on it by making specific shifters for each setup but the current line does trouble-free well with accurate tuning. Again, mechanic error. Maybe you're right. with Ultegra, there's more room for error and that might be enough to warrant it.


 So what is the proper way to set up a 105 tripper shifter to a double crank?


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## slonoma98 (Jun 22, 2005)

does the 09 105s have trimming in the front shifter?


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