# Help me spend $400 on my first road bike



## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm 5'6, about 29 inseam, and 150lbs

I've never owned a road bike nor road one for more than around the block. I DO have a mountain bike and know that i will get what i pay for. I do not have much money, nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes. 

I have $400 and would like something that would get me the best parts/money. I was thinking a SS, it will be for riding around NYC, exercise, getting to friends' place, post office, u know. 

I was looking at the bikesdirect bikes and looks like i can get the best bang/buck with them with something such as the Dawes SST AL (http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/dawes/sst_al_carb.htm)

Is this bike both a SS and can be changed into a Fixed Gear?

What would u guys recommend?

edit: currently looking at the '09 Langster Las Vegas w/ Alu Frame & the '09 Tricross Singlecross, my lbs is offering 500 & 550 respectively for both of them. which do u think is the better deal for a noob mountain biker in NYC?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> I'm 5'6, about 29 inseam, and 150lbs
> 
> I've never owned a road bike nor road one for more than around the block. I DO have a mountain bike and know that i will get what i pay for. I do not have much money, nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes.
> 
> ...


The description mentions a flip flop hub with a SS freewheel and fixed cog (see photo below), so it'll suite your purposes. 

Since you're a noob to road riding and haven't yet pinned down your sizing requirements, I _strongly_ suggest you invest in a fitting at your LBS _prior_ to ordering. Ideally, bring the geo chart of this bike with you and once your size is determined, the fitter can make a recommendation.
View attachment 185594


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## Hooben (Aug 22, 2004)

*Same thing we always recommend. Do you really want to buy a bike without getting to look at it or ride it? 
If your answer is yes, then you deserve what you get. 
Go to a Local Bike Shop. Buy a bike from your Local Bike Shop. Your bike will be fitted to your size and needs. Sure it may cost you more, but do you want to love cycling or be angered by it. The choice is yours.*


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Hooben said:


> *Same thing we always recommend. Do you really want to buy a bike without getting to look at it or ride it?
> If your answer is yes, then you deserve what you get.
> Go to a Local Bike Shop. Buy a bike from your Local Bike Shop. Your bike will be fitted to your size and needs. Sure it may cost you more, but do you want to love cycling or be angered by it. The choice is yours.*


A little harsh IMHO. Money aside I don't disagree, but I think we need to temper our advice with the fact that the OP said he has $400 to spend. 

Working within those confines, I think working with his LBS on sizing and at least getting a new bike with a warranty is the best option available. BD bikes (or similar) are not my first choice either.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

i'm aware of all the "try the bike on before you buy it" recommendations. its the same fot MTB's. But i'm also aware that "fit" isn't specific to the 0.01cm and each person may fit more than 1 bike perfectly well. 

I will of course go to my local shop and try on a bike as similar to this (the dawes SST AL) as i can get. What do u guys think is comparable? my bike shop sells mostly Specialized and Cannondales. 

do u guys have any other recommendations for me @ $400?


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

Hooben said:


> *Same thing we always recommend. Do you really want to buy a bike without getting to look at it or ride it?
> If your answer is yes, then you deserve what you get.
> Go to a Local Bike Shop. Buy a bike from your Local Bike Shop. Your bike will be fitted to your size and needs. Sure it may cost you more, but do you want to love cycling or be angered by it. The choice is yours.*


okay i will go to my lbs where i bought my rockhopper from. They only sell: Cannondale, Specialized, Trek, Gary Fisher. What will they tell me to buy when i say i have $400 to spend? (No, i dont think i want to go with the "save money until u have $1500 and get a good bike that will be for years, this is my first road bike and i dont know what i want, and trying on bikes for 5 mins or 1 hr won't tell me neither.)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> i'm aware of all the "try the bike on before you buy it" recommendations. its the same fot MTB's. _But i'm also aware that "fit" isn't specific to the 0.01cm and each person may fit more than 1 bike perfectly well. _
> 
> I will of course go to my local shop and try on a bike as similar to this (the dawes SST AL) as i can get. What do u guys think is comparable? my bike shop sells mostly Specialized and Cannondales.
> 
> do u guys have any other recommendations for me @ $400?


Sure, many of us fit fine on several brand/ model bikes, but there is a fairly tight set of numbers that work best for us and provide that optimal fit. IME finding that fit will increase your performance along with providing increased comfort (both good things), so I wouldn't minimize its importance.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> okay i will go to my lbs where i bought my rockhopper from. They only sell: Cannondale, Specialized, Trek, Gary Fisher. What will they tell me to buy when i say i have $400 to spend? (No, i dont think i want to go with the "save money until u have $1500 and get a good bike that will be for years, this is my first road bike and i dont know what i want, and trying on bikes for 5 mins or 1 hr won't tell me neither.)


Well ,if you _could _swing it....
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45784&eid=4350&menuItemId=9256


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Well ,if you _could _swing it....
> http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=45784&eid=4350&menuItemId=9256


no u see, thats near double what the Dawes SST Al sells for, and almost double my budget. And the Specialized Langster is only a SS (no fixed gear option) is that right?

But just to tickle my fantasy and compare the next best option (buying from my lbs)
what parts of the Langster make it better than that Dawes SST AL in the OP
Which will be lighter?
Warranty? Does Dawes/BD.com have lifetime warranty?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> no u see, thats near double what the Dawes SST Al sells for, and almost double my budget. And the Specialized Langster is only a SS (no fixed gear option) is that right?
> 
> But just to tickle my fantasy and compare the next best option (buying from my lbs)
> what parts of the Langster make it better than that Dawes SST AL in the OP
> ...


It appears that the Langster has a flip flop hub similar to the Dawes. 

All things considered, I think the Langster is clearly the better bike (specifically the steel frameset), but beyond that you'll get a lifetime warranty (with LBS assistance, if need be) sizing/ fitting assistance, ability to test ride and pre/ post services, such as adjustments and tune ups. While steel will provide a better ride, I don't think there would be a weight advantage when compared against the Dawes, but IME small weight differences aren't noticeable.

While BD bikes theoretically have lifetime warranties, their only point of contact is email, so you'd have to contact them, then ship the bike back (at your cost) for a determination. As you can see, the LBS route is a better choice and (again, IMO) worth the extra cost, _if _you could swing it. And BTW, the cost wouldn't be double. With a discount I'd estimate the Langster at about $550 - $600.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> It appears that the Langster has a flip flop hub similar to the Dawes.
> 
> All things considered, I think the Langster is clearly the better bike (specifically the steel frameset), but beyond that you'll get a lifetime warranty (with LBS assistance, if need be) sizing/ fitting assistance, ability to test ride and pre/ post services, such as adjustments and tune ups. While steel will provide a better ride, I don't think there would be a weight advantage when compared against the Dawes, but IME small weight differences aren't noticeable.
> 
> While BD bikes theoretically have lifetime warranties, their only point of contact is email, so you'd have to contact them, then ship the bike back (at your cost) for a determination. As you can see, the LBS route is a better choice and (again, IMO) worth the extra cost, _if _you could swing it. And BTW, the cost wouldn't be double. With a discount I'd estimate the Langster at about $550 - $600.


Why is the steel langster more worth it? over an Aluminum Dawes or Langster?

I will go to my lbs in the upcoming week or so to check out the langster and weigh it and get fitted. The Dawes is an (avg? heavy?) cheapo @ 21lbs. But until then lets discuss between the two bikes

What kind of discount r u talking about? My lbs no longer as anymore 2009 bikes in stock. For all i know they will sell it to me at the most $50 under msrp with no tax so thats still ~$700

Although warranty is impt to me, contacting for the warranty isn't as impt. How often will i break a frame? I know i will only be riding this on the roads.

can anyone confirm that there is a flip flop hub in the Langster?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> Why is the steel langster more worth it? over an Aluminum Dawes or Langster?
> 
> I will go to my lbs in the upcoming week or so to check out the langster and weigh it and get fitted. The Dawes is an (avg? heavy?) cheapo @ 21lbs. But until then lets discuss between the two bikes
> 
> ...


I'm only offering my opinions based on my experiences, so I prefer steel over alu, and in this case it's a win - win because the steel Langster is cheaper.

As far as the estimated discount I offered, same deal. It's based on my experiences in my area, so yes, your LBS's may offer more/ less/ none. All you need do is ask, then you'll know. 

All I can say about the warranty and differing methods between going through an LBS versus BD is sometimes you pay a little for convenience and assistance. IMO it's far better to have your LBS go to bat for you and work with the company rep rather than emailing a company in (I think) Texas, waiting for a response of where to ship the bike, boxing the bike up and taking it to UPS or FedEX to ship (and it's not cheap), then sit back and hope you hear back. If you don't, then you start emailing asking for a status. And on and on... so I think your description minimizes the hassle involved. And beyond the warranty issue, don't forget the other services the LBS is going to provide. The online guys provide none of them.

Re: the rear hub. Here's Spec's description.
Track rear,* fixed/fw*, bolt-on w/ track axle nut, no logo, Black Ano, 32H, with 1 Lockring. 

Appears to be fixed/ freewheel to me, but check w/ your LBS to be sure.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> I'm only offering my opinions based on my experiences, so I prefer steel over alu, and in this case it's a win - win because the steel Langster is cheaper.
> 
> As far as the estimated discount I offered, same deal. It's based on my experiences in my area, so yes, your LBS's may offer more/ less/ none. All you need do is ask, then you'll know.
> 
> ...


thanks for the breakdown of how warranties work on local/online shopping. I was aware of them, but who is going to pay 100% more for warranty support + 1 year of free service (what my lbs offers.) I'd enjoy the service, but the SS/Fixed bikes are the most basic and i dont know what would go wrong. If i DO need service then i'd have to pay, but with the $300-400 saved, i'd still be saving money. I can also buy a 2nd bike if mine went broke instead of getting warranty.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> thanks for the breakdown of how warranties work on local/online shopping. I was aware of them, but who is going to pay 100% more for warranty supper + 1 year of free service (what my lbs offers.) I'd enjoy the service, but the SS/Fixed bikes are the most basic and i dont know what would go wrong. If i DO need service then i'd have to pay, but with the $300-400 saved, i'd still be saving money. I can also buy a 2nd bike if mine went broke instead of getting warranty.


I think your math is a little off, but you're the one that has to decide which way to go.

BTW, manufacturers normally handle warranty repairs, whether they be components/ wheelsets/ frames, so yes, a SS is mechanically simple, but the main (lifetime) warranty is on the frame and they're of the same basic design no matter how many gears you're running.

Not arguing points, because I think some of yours are valid, merely offering opposing views.. food for thought.


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

One more thing to consider. In your original post you stated that you do not know how to fix or adjust a bike. The BD bike will come in a box, semi assembled and will need to be put together by someone and properly set up.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

andulong said:


> One more thing to consider. In your original post you stated that you do not know how to fix or adjust a bike. The BD bike will come in a box, semi assembled and will need to be put together by someone and properly set up.


what is there to assemble? i know how to put on a wheel.. at least a mtb wheel with a cassette

i also know how to install handlebars, basic bolt on stuff like that. i do not have a torque wrench tho, but i dont think thats necessary for handlebars


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

*I thought you said*

"nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes"

Any bike out of the box is going to require some basic assembly and adjustment. Looks like this one in particular is fairly simple and will still need at the least.

Headset adjustment
stem height adjustment
stem possibly swapped out for proper fit
brakes adjusted
saddle height, angle and fore aft adjustment
possibly wheel truing
tires inflated


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

andulong said:


> "nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes"
> 
> Any bike out of the box is going to require some basic assembly and adjustment. Looks like this one in particular is fairly simple and will still need at the least.
> 
> ...


by looking at a link, and some pictures, how can you tell i will need all those adjusted out of the box?

worse comes to worse i can get a full tuneup at my lbs for $45


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

If it were me I would measure your critical measurements. Find what those relate to on the BD website and pull the trigger on the Dawes or if you want steel this; http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/clockwork.htm. For a first roadie it'll be fine, the assembly you should be able to do and they are most importantly in your budget. BUT if I was a LBS I wouldn't be so happy about giving you the service of a fitting test rides and then seeing you walk out the door for an internet sale. Be up-front and tell them what you have in mind, they be able to hook you up with a good quality used bike. If you bought your MTB off them then they know you, so, my first option would be to see what they can do for you. If you have to pay for a fitting just add it to the price of the bike as assurance of a close fit. Good luck.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

Of course i am going to give my lbs a chance to sell me something, but in the end if they can't compete on price, then theres nothing that can be done

I did buy mine (along with 5 other recommendation sales from me) from them, but how much do u think they can cut off of a $700 Langster?

I'd like to know, what is the pros/cons of a steel frame on a road bike, on a mtb nobody uses steel. I'm a bit of a weight weenie and want the lightest i can afford.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Steel: Repairable, more compliant but heavier than Aluminium. If weight is your thing go Aluminium.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> Of course i am going to give my lbs a chance to sell me something, but in the end if they can't compete on price, then theres nothing that can be done
> 
> I did buy mine (along with 5 other recommendation sales from me) from them, but how much do u think they can cut off of a $700 Langster?
> 
> I'd like to know, what is the pros/cons of a steel frame on a road bike, on a mtb nobody uses steel. I'm a bit of a weight weenie and want the lightest i can afford.


If you're just going to focus on price as the bottom line the LBS will never match or beat an online retailer, but that doesn't mean you're 'getting more' from the online guys. It simply means that they deal in quantities, ship the bikes out in a box and you do the rest. OTOH, the LBS works with you on sizing/ fit, fully assemblies/ adjusts the bike and you get to test ride, making more adjustments from there. There's also post purchase services offered. All of these services are a benefit to the consumer and cost. So, what's_ really _the better deal? IMO the LBS is, because all things considered the purchase is a package deal, not a bike in a box deal. 

BTW, if you do go the online route, count on getting the bike assembled at the LBS. It's the safer way to go - for a number of reasons.

RE; steel vs alu frames. I wouldn't draw too heavily on your mtn biking background to make that decision. Road riding isn't off road riding and after being on a road bike an extended amount of time you'll come to appreciate the ride steel offers. As far as any negatives, the only one I can think of is a small weight penalty, but as mentioned, it's negligible and IMO more than offset by the benefits.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

LOUISSSSS said:


> I'm 5'6, about 29 inseam, and 150lbs
> 
> I've never owned a road bike nor road one for more than around the block. I DO have a mountain bike and know that i will get what i pay for. I do not have much money, nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes.
> 
> ...


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## Slim Chance (Feb 8, 2005)

Look at a Schwinn Madison at Performance Bike. If you can find your size, the 2009s are on sale for $399.


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## Tommy Walker (Aug 14, 2009)

http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1073201_-1_20000__61000

This might make it; if you can follow bikes at Performance and they have a sale plus 25% off this actually comes to $468. There is also a Fuji Absolute for $450.

Also consider a nice used bike off e-bay.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

You may want to go this  route. It is the same bike as many of the BD bikes but you can try it out and see if it fits before you buy.


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> by looking at a link, and some pictures, how can you tell i will need all those adjusted out of the box?
> 
> worse comes to worse i can get a full tuneup at my lbs for $45


Those are just some of the basics of assembling a bike out of the box...I have put many bikes together and some need more...some less. I know some guys that will tear it down to the frame to check crank installation, headset installation and make sure everything has proper amount of fresh grease before building. Probably overkill but most of the things I mentioned will need to be at least checked before your first ride for comfort and safety reasons.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> I'm 5'6, about 29 inseam, and 150lbs
> 
> I've never owned a road bike nor road one for more than around the block. I DO have a mountain bike and know that i will get what i pay for. I do not have much money, nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes.
> 
> ...



There are a ton of great options in SS/FG under $400 -- from us and from performance and on ebay.
The quality is EXACTLY the same as the bikes sold in shops [and in some cases the exact same bikes at just half the money]

My favorite by far is the KILO WT - which is a super quality bike the equal of which would be about $800 in a shop.

That said - there is no way to go wrong with a Clockwork at $299 delivered -- great bike; made in one of the top factories in the world; thousands have been sold and customers love them.

I think with as little checking around you can find out who is the largest seller of SS/FG bikes and which models are well respected

Thanks for looking at us


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Is there any reason not to look used? Especially with this being a single/fixie. Not a whole lot to be worn out here. 

There are plenty of fit calculators on the web that can get you close enough to order a frame. The LBS can then fit from there when you have the real deal in hand.

The good thing about buying used on line is that if it does not fit, you can re-sell it and not take a bath.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Is there any reason not to look used? Especially with this being a single/fixie. Not a whole lot to be worn out here.
> 
> There are plenty of fit calculators on the web that can get you close enough to order a frame. The LBS can then fit from there when you have the real deal in hand.
> 
> The good thing about buying used on line is that if it does not fit, you can re-sell it and not take a bath.



I am glad you ask
The answer is YES

There are lots of reasons to avoid used

Some good used deals to be had; but you need to [1] know actually what you are looking at [2] send a fair amount of time and [3] be lucky

Buying used is much more risky for new cyclists than buying online

And BTW resale is generally not much better than a new online bike - if at all. And could turn into a real nightmare [which I have seen with used bikes thousands of times]


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> There are a ton of great options in SS/FG under $400 -- from us and from performance and on ebay.
> *The quality is EXACTLY the same as the bikes sold in shops [and in some cases the exact same bikes at just half the money]*
> My favorite by far is the KILO WT - which is a super quality bike the equal of which would be about $800 in a shop.
> 
> ...


In typical BD Mike fashion, unsubstantiated claims with no basis in fact are made. BD does not offer comparable frameset/ component packages "at just half the money". They do cost somewhat less, but they're not entirely 'comparable' and most LBS services are not available. 

Given the OP's price point, my first and second posts here outline what I saw (and still see) as his best options, but going the LBS route and spending $200 (or more) on one of the many choices carried there will benefit him in a number of ways that buying online cannot.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> I am glad you ask
> The answer is YES
> 
> There are lots of reasons to avoid used
> ...


If someone chooses to do some research before buying (which they should), the pitfalls you offer are no different than buying online, especially considering sizing/ fit, because you can't see or ride the online bike before purchasing. 

Buying used is no more risky for new cyclists than buying online and in some ways less so, but there _are_ risks with either choice. IMO going through LBS's is by far the safest, and betters the odds (especially for noobs) of getting the right bike. 

Resale value of bikes is an unknown, so it's pure conjecture to offer any stats, but historically the more highly regarded names fair better in the used marketplace.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

BD guy, thanks for your input but of course i am going to take it with a grain of salt. Your interests are not the same as everyone elses on this forum. 

Also, going to the lbs is most likely not going to help me, other than help me decide what i want. i know they will not be able to sell me anything at my price point of $400. If the user above (PJ352) works for a bike shop, i wouldn't be surprised since thats what hes been telling me. Do you PJ?

Anyway, what BD user can help me with is tell me when they will get more Dawes SST Al in size 52 in stock...


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## rock mafia (Aug 1, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> I am glad you ask
> The answer is YES
> 
> There are lots of reasons to avoid used
> ...


(1) It's a bike, not a space ship. Other than exploding frames, it's not that hard to educate yourself. (2) Yes, you may have to spend some time, I have more time than money, so that's ok. (3) You only have to be lucky to get a smokin deal VS a good deal (bikepedia and RBR are you friend). There are plenty of used bikes around here for 1/2 to sometimes 1/10 of what they were new. For that kind of savings, I'm ok with no warranty. This is America, where people overpay for stuff they don't need, then have no problem unloading it for nothing when it's in their way. 

The first one I bought was a Motobecane sprint, new in the box for $500, half off your "half off" price. Fit great. Resale was great, too.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

FWIW, you don't want a road bike. You want a fixie or a track bike. Big difference. Road bike, you can get a new Raleigh Sport for $600. Track/Fixie...there are a bunch of them out there in the $400 range, including bike shop bikes.

You can get this one for not much more than $400....


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

i actually want a SS/FG with the rear flip flip hub that allows me to just flip the wheel over and i'll have both...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

LOUISSSSS said:


> i actually want a SS/FG with the rear flip flip hub that allows me to just flip the wheel over and i'll have both...


Almost every fixie on the planet is a flip-flop....


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> BD guy, thanks for your input but of course i am going to take it with a grain of salt. Your interests are not the same as everyone elses on this forum.
> 
> Also, going to the lbs is most likely not going to help me, other than help me decide what i want. i know they will not be able to sell me anything at my price point of $400.* If the user above (PJ352) works for a bike shop, i wouldn't be surprised since thats what hes been telling me. Do you PJ?*
> 
> Anyway, what BD user can help me with is tell me when they will get more Dawes SST Al in size 52 in stock...


I assure you, I'm in no way affiliated with any LBS. Never worked in one, never wanted to. I'll also offer that I'm in no way affiliated with any manufacturer. 

The advice I offer here is based on 25+ years of cycling experience with the sole purpose of assisting members in most any bike related area(s). I'm a firm believer in fit matters most, so I suggest avenues that'll better a prospectives odds of attaining that optimal fit. IMO you can do no better than working with an experienced fitter at a reputable bike shop. There are additional reasons, but I've already posted them. And speaking of posts, search mine and you'll see that they mirror what I've offered here. 

I hope I've satisfactorily answered your question.


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## zriggle (Apr 16, 2008)

LOUISSSSS said:


> I'm 5'6, about 29 inseam, and 150lbs
> 
> I've never owned a road bike nor road one for more than around the block. I DO have a mountain bike and know that i will get what i pay for. I do not have much money, nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes.
> 
> ...


I would *highly* recommend you look at the Phantom Cross Uno. It will accept bigger tires should you want to, has full front, rearn and fender braze-ons should you ever want to add racks, real Avid Shorty brakes (not Tektro cheapies) and *is full 4130 chromoly steel*.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zriggle said:


> I would *highly* recommend you look at the Phantom Cross Uno. It will accept bigger tires should you want to, has full front, rearn and fender braze-ons should you ever want to add racks, real Avid Shorty brakes (not Tektro cheapies) and *is full 4130 chromoly steel*.


Gotta watch the BB height/ standover on track bikes. With the OP's estimated inseam of 29", that particular model in even a 49 cm has a standover of 30.7".


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

i still don't get it, why do people recommend steel over aluminum frames in the low end?

are the alu frames less durable? are the steel frames more comfortable to ride?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

rock mafia said:


> (1) It's a bike, not a space ship. Other than exploding frames, it's not that hard to educate yourself. (2) Yes, you may have to spend some time, I have more time than money, so that's ok. (3) You only have to be lucky to get a smokin deal VS a good deal (bikepedia and RBR are you friend). There are plenty of used bikes around here for 1/2 to sometimes 1/10 of what they were new. For that kind of savings, I'm ok with no warranty. This is America, where people overpay for stuff they don't need, then have no problem unloading it for nothing when it's in their way.
> 
> The first one I bought was a Motobecane sprint, new in the box for $500, half off your "half off" price. Fit great. Resale was great, too.



You got a great deal - that is fantastic.

Many used bikes are a great deal; many are very bad deals.

Some used bikes turn into extremely awful deals for customers who do not know what to look for {stretched chain, worn CRs, worn cogs, dry pitted bearings, hairline frame cracks, and even worse}

Over 30 years I have seen thousands of customers with 'bargin' used bikes that needed more work than the value of the bike after repair. 

Plus a defective shifter, crank, frame, brake, fork, etc - is never covered on used bikes - that I know of. Defects are rare in bikes these days - very rare: but a defective Shimano STI shifter that turns up after a year or so; we cover to original buyers as would most shops. But all warranties I know of do not cover second hand bikes.

And sizing is always an issue with used bikes - if you find the perfect deal on a 54c and you really think you need a 58c - is it worth it? wonder if it is a 56c? 

Time is a factory for many people; plus others do not like going to see bikes they have seen on craigslist as they do not know the person {lots of our customers are busy people and many are women who do not want to show up at a strangers house looking at a used bike and many do not want to be measuring the chain to see if the wornout chain has likely damaged the cassette -- etc etc etc}


So even though there are some great deals in used bikes; I think most customers prefer the relative safety of buying a new bike.


----------



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

90% of the bikes I've owned have been used......I've never had a problem...

I've purchased used bikes on eBay, Craigslist, locally and internationally...

There is nothing wrong with buying used.....

New riders take a risk buying online, used, or at an LBS... there are + and - to each....


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> i still don't get it, why do people recommend steel over aluminum frames in the low end?
> 
> are the alu frames less durable? are the steel frames more comfortable to ride?


Aluminum and Steel are both great materials
[as are Ti and CarbonFiber]

It takes years of study to find out that no matter what you like there are lots of people who as also knowledgable that do not agree with you.

I think it is safe to say that you can be happy with either

Now some general statements that many people would agree with

Durability -- Ti, Steel, Aluminum, then Carbon fiber
Comfort -- Ti, Steel, Carbon fiber, then aluminum
Lightness -- Carbon fiber, Aluminum, Ti, then Steel
Tradition -- Steel -- all everything else is not
Cost -- Ti, Carbon Fiber, High-grade Steel, Aluminum, then HiTenSteel [I would say do not get HiTenSteel]
Tourists like Steel
Commuters like Steel
Road Racers like Carbon Fiber
Mountain bikers mainly use Aluminum
Lots of people would like Ti but find it too expensive

now given that: there can be at least 100 people chime in and say "hey, my Steel frame is lighter than most carbon frames"
so these general statements are guide lines -- unless you want to drive yourself nuts and become a cycling nut like the rest of us on the forums; just assume you can be very happy with Aluminum or HiGrade Steel {4130 Chrm-moly}


The Aluminum SST is a great bike you would be happy with it
The Kilo WT is IMO the best overall deal in a SS/FG and insanely durable and comfortable

But you can get a perfectly good SS/FG at under $300 brand new - that you would also be happy with


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> by looking at a link, and some pictures, how can you tell i will need all those adjusted out of the box?
> 
> worse comes to worse i can get a full tuneup at my lbs for $45


IMO $45 to tune a SS/FG is a wate of money

it is 10 minutes work at the most

so that would be like $270 an hour

SS/FG is a good place to start learning to do your own work; if you are ever so inclined

Most SS/FG online buyers never take their bikes to a shop is my observation


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> IMO $45 to tune a SS/FG is a wate of money
> 
> it is 10 minutes work at the most
> 
> ...



Don't your instructions state, to prevent stripping the hub, to make sure the cog and lockring are tight? 

When I bought a Windsor The Hour from you a few years ago, there were specific instructions on making sure the cog and lock ring are tight..... 

I have my own tools so it wasn't a problem but I new rider isn't going to have a chain whip and lock ring tool...


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> In typical BD Mike fashion, unsubstantiated claims with no basis in fact are made.* BD does not offer comparable frameset/ component packages "at just half the money".* They do cost somewhat less, but they're not entirely 'comparable' and most LBS services are not available.
> 
> Given the OP's price point, my first and second posts here outline what I saw (and still see) as his best options, but going the LBS route and spending $200 (or more) on one of the many choices carried there will benefit him in a number of ways that buying online cannot.


The funny thing about your posts is they often include completely false statements; and it does not see to bother you.

Many are so far off I have to wonder if you even beleive what you are saying. Anyone who has spent much time on the forums or shopped bikes much knows what I am talking about.

Often we sell the exact same bike at half the reatil
this has gone on for years - there are dozens of examples

I suggest you go to the SS/FG section here or on bikeforums.net
you will certainly see that

Or you might look at Tri forums, Road forums, etc to see the history of that -- not really the issue here -- BUT people who understand the business know that many bikes are exactly the same with different labels and sold at widely different prices through different channels of distribution.

Since you say I make "unsubstantiated claims" - why not take the time to look at the first bike on the first page of our home page -- Kestrel Evoke SL - MSRP in shops at $3350; some shops sell for less; some actually have sold for more; we are $1695 including shipping [49.5% off and a savings of $1655]

You really make so many false statements it is hard to keep up


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> BD guy, thanks for your input but of course i am going to take it with a grain of salt. Your interests are not the same as everyone elses on this forum.
> 
> 
> Anyway, what BD user can help me with is tell me when they will get more Dawes SST Al in size 52 in stock...



Thanks for looking

And yes - please take my input with a grain of salt

However, it maybe hard to understand; but may interests are about the same as most long term posters on the forums. I love bikes; I love to ride bikes; I like to talk bikes; and I love to see people using bikes -- we are mostly all bike freaks here. 

And although I love to sell bikes too; if you read all the forum posts you will quickly find out that I sell every bike I can get. I will also tell you without question; IMHO BD has the best deals on new SS/FG bikes anywhere [many posters agree with this]
But the second best deals on SS/FG IMO are at performancebike.com

For under $400 you can get a nice SS/FG from us or performance

SST AL -- sold out and more due in March first

KILO WT is still in my opinion the best SS/FG anyone can get for your type use at under $800 {for about $800 Surly Steamroller is a great bike too - as is Bianchi san Jose}

You would be happy with a $300 Clockwork; also


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> 90% of the bikes I've owned have been used......I've never had a problem...
> 
> I've purchased used bikes on eBay, Craigslist, locally and internationally...
> 
> ...



Dave
you and I are old hands
buying used is no risk for us

if you could see half the sad cases I have of buyers burnt on 'bargin' used bikes you would know exactly what I mean -- it can be heart breaking - seriously. I have even had customers break out crying in the story when they learn what is the issue with their bargin used bike deal and the cost to fix it.

Just saying - there are great used deals; but it can be risky


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

My lbs offered me this bike for $500 flat
http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/...pecialized&Model=Langster+Las+Vegas&Type=bike
2009 langster las Vegas

how is this bike compared to the 2010 langster aluminum??
I know the specs day carbon fork but I inspected the bike today during a test ride and the fork looked aluminum. Can anyone confrim there's carbon in there? 

Am I getting a good deal for $500?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

LOUISSSSS said:


> My lbs offered me this bike for $500 flat
> http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/...pecialized&Model=Langster+Las+Vegas&Type=bike
> 2009 langster las Vegas
> 
> ...


You could do a lot worse...Langsters are very nice bikes....The fork is supposed to be carbon(painted).... 

How did the bike feel?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> You could do a lot worse...Langsters are very nice bikes....The fork is supposed to be carbon(painted)....
> 
> How did the bike feel?


+1_ Nice _bike. the fork steerer is alu.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

The bike felt good but I'm not used to the weaker and awkward braking position. I'm used to stopping on a dime with my hydraulic disc brakes. Is it normal for those tektro brakes to feel weak and need some distance to stop?

I rode a size 54 langster. At 5'6 is that my normal size or will I need a 52. The size 54 weighed 19 lbs. Is that competitive for a road bike? Do I have lots of upgrading room with the 2009?

Also, what's the diff between the 2009 langster LV and the 2010 langster Los Angeles


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> My lbs offered me this bike for $500 flat
> http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/...pecialized&Model=Langster+Las+Vegas&Type=bike
> 2009 langster las Vegas
> 
> ...



A Langster is a good bike - should have a carbon fork {aluminum bikes with aluminum forks do not usually ride too well - so that is a spec I hardly ever see}

A Langster is a good bike at $500 -- about the same bike overall as an SST AL
and with dealer setup and service - $500 is good


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

That's an awesome deal for $500.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> He bike felt good but I'm not used to the weaker and awkcbraking position. I'm usedto stopping on a dime with ny hydraulic disc brakes. Is it normal for those tektro brakes to feel weak and need some distance to stop?
> 
> I rode a size 54 langster. At 5'6 is that my normal size or will I need a 52. The size 54 weighed 19 lbs. Is that competitive for a road bike? Do I have lots of upgrading room with the 2009?
> 
> Also, what's the diff between the 2009 langster LV and the 2010 langster Los Angeles


The only difference in specs that I could see was that the '09 has a Comp saddle and the '10 has Z Rival. Obviously not worth the prive difference.

There's nothing inherently wrong with those brakes, but if you want to optimize their performance I suggest asking about Kool Stops at the LBS - or just search around on the web. They'll make just about any brake perform better.

We can't reliably size you over the net, but at 5'6" you're more likely to need a 52 than a 54, but leave that in the LBS's hands. That's one of the reasons you go to them.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> He bike felt good but I'm not used to the weaker and awkcbraking position. I'm usedto stopping on a dime with ny hydraulic disc brakes. Is it normal for those tektro brakes to feel weak and need some distance to stop?
> 
> I rode a size 54 langster. At 5'6 is that my normal size or will I need a 52. The size 54 weighed 19 lbs. Is that competitive for a road bike? Do I have lots of upgrading room with the 2009?
> 
> Also, what's the diff between the 2009 langster LV and the 2010 langster Los Angeles


tektro brakes are fine
if you need more stopping power - change the brake pads
brakes on the Langster will be fine with some nice highend pads
plus the CNC braking surface on Race32 should be great for braking


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

now my last question: is there any difference at all between the 2009 and 2010 in the Langster LV and the 2010 Langster LA

on another note: the LBS also gave me the price of $550 for this http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2009&spid=38442&menuItemId=0
2009 Specialized Tricross Singlecross

Would this be a bad road bike for 99% pavement riding?

i DO live in NYC with many potholes and curbs and wouldn't mind a bike that can take a little beating.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> He bike felt good but I'm not used to the weaker and awkcbraking position. I'm usedto stopping on a dime with ny hydraulic disc brakes. Is it normal for those tektro brakes to feel weak and need some distance to stop?
> 
> *I rode a size 54 langster. At 5'6 is that my normal size or will I need a 52. The size 54 weighed 19 lbs. Is that competitive for a road bike? Do I have lots of upgrading room with the 2009?*
> 
> Also, what's the diff between the 2009 langster LV and the 2010 langster Los Angeles



If your inseam is truely 29" - 54c is too big for you
ask your dealer to try a 49c or 52c for you in this style bike
49c is probably best fit with 52c being close second
I think most will tell you 54c is just to big at 5'6" with 29" inseam

19lbs is about right - but in Steel [full 4130] - weight is also about 19lbs
to give you an idea of the range - 15lbs is about as light as you see
and a POS hi-ten SS/FG is about 23lbs
so 18, 19, or 20 is about normal for SS/FG in the list price range of $600 to $900


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> The funny thing about your posts is they often include completely false statements; and it does not see to bother you.
> 
> Many are so far off I have to wonder if you even beleive what you are saying. Anyone who has spent much time on the forums or shopped bikes much knows what I am talking about.
> 
> ...


You do have a tough time keeping up, because I've asked numerous questions of you and never received responses, but I've made no false statements. What I said was....

BD does not offer comparable frameset/ component packages "at just half the money". They do cost somewhat less, but *they're not entirely 'comparable' and most LBS services are not available. *

... and it's true. They're not offered at "at just half the money", are not entirely comparable and most LBS services are _*not*_ offered. 

The remainer of your post is either irrelevant (as you noted yourself) or just another unpaid ad.

Now, about that toll free customer service phone number BD _doesn't_ have.....


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> The only difference in specs that I could see was that the '09 has a Comp saddle and the '10 has Z Rival. Obviously not worth the prive difference.
> 
> *There's nothing inherently wrong with those brakes, but if you want to optimize their performance I suggest asking about Kool Stops at the LBS - or just search around on the web. They'll make just about any brake perform better.
> *
> We can't reliably size you over the net, but at 5'6" you're more likely to need a 52 than a 54, but leave that in the LBS's hands. That's one of the reasons you go to them.


thanks for the tip, i will pick up a set of koolstops also at the lbs if/when i pick up the bike. how much do they usually run for?
How are the Alex 32 rims on the Langster? Will they handle hitting manholes/potholes about 2-3times/mile? (i live in NYC where the pavement is more like a construction zone)


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> You do have a tough time keeping up, because I've asked numerous questions of you and never received responses, but I've made no false statements. What I said was....
> 
> BD does not offer comparable frameset/ component packages "at just half the money". They do cost somewhat less, but *they're not entirely 'comparable' and most LBS services are not available. *
> 
> ...



There you go: another false statement that you think you can cover by unrelated info

Most readers on here have been all over BF, RBR, and MTBR
They know of tons of bikes where we have sold the exact same models for less than half the price other dealers charges
They know that we sell bikes online and in shops
That our shops sell at the same price as online
That we give free service for life

I think we can leave it to each reader to do they own research and find out who is correct on this simple question and weather my original statement was true or false 

Or go ask Kestrel what the list is on a 2009 Evoke SL


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> There you go: another false statement that you think you can cover by unrelated info
> 
> Most readers on here have been all over BF, RBR, and MTBR
> They know of tons of bikes where we have sold the exact same models for less than half the price other dealers charges
> ...


stop the back and fourth... i'm glad you're *trying* to help but its starting to look like you're trying to skew the results toward you. like i said you're best interest is not my best interest. you're in this thread trying to make a sale, or else you wouldn't be here if i didn't post about the Dawes. 

Please link me to a bike with the same specs as the langster aluminum (2009 las vegas version) for less than half the price of $500. (yes, you can post a 2009 bike to be fair)

Also, my lbs gives me free service, you say u also give me free service. Will Bikesdirect.com adjust my derailleurs? fix any problems i have with the bike? true my wheels? fix any squeaking? (you do offer free service for life don't you?)


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## laotsu42 (Feb 21, 2004)

i know the deal with cheap believe me ... but i found this in my wanderings while i face a similar situation ...
http://www.hiawathacyclery.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=261

looks like it may be a bit more but it is a good bike and you might be able to get it through a local bike shop .....


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

laotsu42 said:


> i know the deal with cheap believe me ... but i found this in my wanderings while i face a similar situation ...
> http://www.hiawathacyclery.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=261
> 
> looks like it may be a bit more but it is a good bike and you might be able to get it through a local bike shop .....


saw that bike at my lbs today. he didn't recommend it to me for some reason. Don't know why but i didn't ask either. the look of it didn't catch my interest


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## laotsu42 (Feb 21, 2004)

LOUISSSSS said:


> saw that bike at my lbs today. he didn't recommend it to me for some reason. Don't know why but i didn't ask either. the look of it didn't catch my interest


red line is not bad ....probably doesn't have that bling quality that others have ...ps i went with a surly karate monkey all the all purpose commuter gotta pay more and it is taking forever to get but in the mountains i wanted disc brakes ...and something that could do a bit of both road and mountain....well see...soon ...a week and a half ....AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! 
meanwhile it has snowed in Taos and my 05 lemond is just not cuttin' it ...:mad2:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> There you go: another false statement that you think you can cover by unrelated info
> 
> Most readers on here have been all over BF, RBR, and MTBR
> They know of tons of bikes where we have sold the exact same models for less than half the price other dealers charges
> ...


It's not at all unrelated. Specialized and others provide a tech support email address along with a toll free number. It's a service that they provide, that BD does not. Considering that a bike purchase is a package deal (when going through an LBS), it very relevant and a valuable service.

I like that free service for life remark. Do customers mail their bikes back for a tune up? And if you're talking just in your stores, then that IS irrelevant to this thread.

And that BD customer service number is... what??


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> stop the back and fourth... i'm glad you're *trying* to help but its starting to look like you're trying to skew the results toward you. like i said you're best interest is not my best interest. you're in this thread trying to make a sale, or else you wouldn't be here if i didn't post about the Dawes.
> 
> Please link me to a bike with the same specs as the langster aluminum (2009 las vegas version) for less than half the price of $500. (yes, you can post a 2009 bike to be fair)
> 
> Also, my lbs gives me free service, you say u also give me free service. Will Bikesdirect.com adjust my derailleurs? fix any problems i have with the bike? true my wheels? fix any squeaking? (you do offer free service for life don't you?)


Sorry
you have misread me
I am not trying to sell you a bike
in fact. I have tried to be clear
the langster at $500 is a great deal
as is the base ss/fg at performance for $300

we give all the service you mentioned for free in our shops
but the shops at not close to NYC

if you can get a langster for $500
it is a good deal
that bike sells for $800 list and we sell bikes like it for $400
but we are sold out till March

I prefer a steel bike for use like yours
as many here would
but the langster will give you good service too

I think you should go with that


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> thanks for the tip, i will pick up a set of koolstops also at the lbs if/when i pick up the bike. how much do they usually run for?
> How are the Alex 32 rims on the Langster? Will they handle hitting manholes/potholes about 2-3times/mile? (i live in NYC where the pavement is more like a construction zone)


Assuming you're not a Clydesdale, the rims should be fine. The spoke count matters at least as much, and they're 32h.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> thanks for the tip, i will pick up a set of koolstops also at the lbs if/when i pick up the bike. how much do they usually run for?
> *How are the Alex 32 rims on the Langster?* Will they handle hitting manholes/potholes about 2-3times/mile? (i live in NYC where the pavement is more like a construction zone)



Good rims

Keep lots of pressure in your tires

I prefer 28c or 32c tires in NYC type streets
but keeping pressure up will help even if you run 25c


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

Does SS/FG require any maintenance other than lubing the chain every few hundred miles?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> It's not at all unrelated. Specialized and others provide a tech support email address along with a toll free number. It's a service that they provide, that BD does not. Considering that a bike purchase is a package deal (when going through an LBS), it very relevant and a valuable service.
> 
> I like that free service for life remark. Do customers mail their bikes back for a tune up? And if you're talking just in your stores, then that IS irrelevant to this thread.
> 
> ...


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> Does SS/FG require any maintenance other than lubing the chain every few hundred miles?



Not much: but brake adjustments, wheel truing, bearing adjustments, lubing cables, etc will be needed from time to time. Many riders do this themselves.

In NYC, wheels maybe your biggest lookout


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Don't your instructions state, to prevent stripping the hub, to make sure the cog and lockring are tight?
> 
> When I bought a Windsor The Hour from you a few years ago, there were specific instructions on making sure the cog and lock ring are tight.....
> 
> I have my own tools so it wasn't a problem but I new rider isn't going to have a chain whip and lock ring tool...



Yes; if running a fixed gear; the owner IMO should have tools to keep the cog and lock ring tight. Especially the way some FG guys ride today; the cog and lock ring should be checked daily.

However, I think many who use bikes like a Langster, SST-AL, Kilo WT, Steamroller, Etc actually use the FW option. Not a bad idea, in my opinion


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> PJ352 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not at all unrelated. Specialized and others provide a tech support email address along with a toll free number. It's a service that they provide, that BD does not. Considering that a bike purchase is a package deal (when going through an LBS), it very relevant and a valuable service.
> ...


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> now my last question: is there any difference at all between the 2009 and 2010 in the Langster LV and the 2010 Langster LA
> 
> on another note: the LBS also gave me the price of $550 for this http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2009&spid=38442&menuItemId=0
> 2009 Specialized Tricross Singlecross
> ...


You can compare those bikes at the Specialized site by clicking on bikes (for the current year models), then archive for the '09. Click the technical specs tab once the model is found.

The 32c tires on the Tricross may offer some advantages given both your mtn biking background and the fact that NYC roads are... _bad_. I'm not familiar with the tread on the OEM's, but they can always be swapped out for something more suitable.

EDIT: To clarify, you _may_ be able to run 32c tires with the OEM rims on the Langster (assuming fork clearance is adaquate), so don't base a decision solely on ths issue. Double check that with your LBS.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

gotcha, looks like theres nothing worth the extra $200 for the new 2010 edition.

i guess i'll try and save to the $500 to get the Langster


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> gotcha, looks like theres nothing worth the extra $200 for the new 2010 edition.
> 
> i guess i'll try and save to the $500 to get the Langster


I agree, good choice. Let us know how you make out.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

What do u guys think of the 2009 Spec Tricross Singlecross? http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2009&spid=38442&menuItemId=0

Does it have the ability to flip flop the rear wheel to ride in fixed gear?

What makes this bike better/worse than the langster i posted above?


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> bikesdirect said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


----------



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

LOUISSSSS said:


> What do u guys think of the 2009 Spec Tricross Singlecross? http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2009&spid=38442&menuItemId=0
> 
> Does it have the ability to flip flop the rear wheel to ride in fixed gear?
> 
> What makes this bike better/worse than the langster i posted above?



Much better for NYC, IMO

Langster I think is limited to 28c tires; with Tricross you can run 25c or 28c if you want - but can also use 32c, 35c, 38c, and maybe 42c

We sell tons of SS/FG into NYC -- and the Fantom Cross UNO and Kilo WT are very popular there. So popular that we are adding right now a wider tire SS/FG Windsor called the Timeline at $300.

Lots of SS/FG riders are deciding to go with WideTireFriendly {WTF} bikes - and many are using SS 29ers like SE Stout, Moto Outcast, and Windsor Cliff 29.1 for urban transit and fun.

Surly Steamroller is another great option - your dealer can get that bike too - I bet

Especially if you are used to ATB and are riding in NYC - you will appreciate the tire options.

I say go for the Tricross over a Langster; IMHO
{you may want to change FW to 16T - but that is easy and cheap}


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Herein lies our biggest disagreement. You think a LBS WILL size customers better than someone can online - I think a LBS COULD size someone better than someone can online.
> 
> The difference is I have seen the results of shop sizing from thousands of shops across the USA; over decades; and I have watched the changes in the bicycle business from when shops had nothing but road bikes to when they had nothing but mountain bikes to now when there is a mix of all types of bikes. And I have watched the entire financial structure of bike shops and distributors change; including stocking patterns.
> 
> ...


Much of what you've offered are your interpretations/ beliefs and opinions, and you're certainly allowed that. But to provide a short dissertation of deficiencies of substandard LBS's doesn't prove you (or any other online seller) can do better at sizing, forget about fitting. I've told you _how_ the LBS's do better, you've provided general statements.

I've outlined this countless times here, but in the interest of substantiating my position...

When a customer visits a reputable shop they are asked some questions (intended use(s), cycling experience/ background, type of riding) along with being sized up physically by the shop employee. Once these questions are answered, some measurements are taken, makes/ models of bikes are chosen and, based on those measurements sizing is determined (for that model). Before the customer heads out for a ride, they're fitted to the bike and head out for a ride. When they return, they discuss how the bike felt in fit, ride and handling and some determination is made (ideally by both the customer and employee) on the next course of action - whether it be an adjustment to the initial fit, trying another bike - and the process continues until the customer has chosen a make/ model and is set up on it. After the purchase, most LBS's will tweak the initial fit as part of their service. 

Do all shops follow this pattern? No. To varying degrees some do less, some do more. But if you follow the steps I've outlined, what becomes apparent is that the possibility of doing the same online does not exist. There is no in person interaction that is vital through the sizing/ fitting process between customer and online store. No fitting, no test rides, so no way can they 'do better' let alone as good. If you disagree, tell us _how specifically _you and other online retailers can do better. Tell us what steps are taken, specifically. 

BTW, coincidentally there are two threads going now (one here, one in the Motobecane forum) where potential customers are seeking advice on sizing. If BD (or Neuvation) can do a better job at this than LBS's, why are members seeking out advice here? In fairness, many do the same working through LBS's (as the OP has) because they simply have questions or want some clarification from members, but they at least have the option of working through the LBS, as opposed to what, an email to the online retailer? 

I'll agree_ that _we disagree, but I hedge on agreeing_ to _disagree, because that implies my silence when someone posts unsubstantiated claims.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> Much of what you've offered are your interpretations/ beliefs and opinions, and you're certainly allowed that. But to provide a short dissertation of deficiencies of substandard LBS's doesn't prove you (or any other online seller) can do better at sizing, forget about fitting. I've told you _how_ the LBS's do better, you've provided general statements.
> 
> I've outlined this countless times here, but in the interest of substantiating my position...
> 
> ...


Sorry
You completely messed my points

Way too many shops today are staffed by people not qualified to size cyclists
Many shops undersize riders due to assuming a riding style not intended by the customer
Many shops size to their inventory - this has become very common

I agree a shop CAN do a great job sizing; but today most do not; especially on very tall, very short, or older riders.

If you want to understand this: call about 100 shops and ask 'what do you have in stock right now in a 64cm road bike' -- then you will have an idea of what is going on.

I have personally walked in to shops all over the USA that had nothing in stock in a road bike under 52cm or over 58cm.

Note that I always stock 44cm up to 64cm -- right now I have some bikes in 43c and 65c [c-t] -- so customers are never sized based on what we have in stock. No employee working for me ever thinks I can put this guy on a 60cm even though he is 6.3" with a 36" inseam and wants a long distance comfortable road bike. YOU COMPLETELY UNRATE THE PRESSURE ON SHOPS TO SELL WHAT IS IN STOCK! {you may not have seen as many shop P&Ls as I have}

Now if ever shop sized asyou suggest they should - that would be very nice -- but it is not happening. That is just a fact. 

So I still feel many customers get better size advise online; And most get the same advise online that they would in a shop; a few get more detailed advise which includes some stem or bar changes.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bikesdirect said:


> Sorry
> *You completely messed my points*
> 
> Way too many shops today are staffed by people not qualified to size cyclists
> ...


I think you missed my points, because you ignored much of what I offered.

Again, you provide examples of substandard bike shops. I know they exist and have been in several. I also know that those same substandard shops will size riders to their inventory, but the reputable ones don't. RBR members are consistently told to visit several shops, ride several bikes, and are offered suggestions on how to weed out the good shops from the bad. 

As far as who has the most stock on hand, IME it's sometimes true that because online retailers deal in quantity sales, their inventories generally reflect that, but not always. But that aside, it doesn't follow that they are better able to size a customer _sight unseen _simply because they have his/ her size on hand.

And you still haven't provided a detailed description of just how you'd do so.

And along those same lines, I'd love to hear how an online retailer provides stem/ bar swaps. At the very best, you're talking days that the rider would be without a bike - and that's at the _very_ best. Even a substandard shop can better that. 

We've had our say and I have little doubt we'll repeat the process at some point in the near future. So be it. Members can read ours and other member comments and choose for themselves.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

You keep mentioning "sized by what they have in stock"....

I've worked at several bike shops, been a partner in one, and now own my own shop. In all these years, I have never worked for a shop that "sized by inventory". I'm sure they exist, but me having a 100% track record suggests that it isn't as prevalent as you assume.

I've always sold by what the customer Should be riding, and what the feels best to him/her. Maybe they should be on a 54, but they like the feel of a 52 better. If they're dead-set on a 52, I will try to make the 52 work. If I don't have a 52 in stock, I'll tell them that I can order it, or I can check with other dealers of that bike and see if they have one in stock.

Only the most short-sighted of shop owners would size by inventory.... Money is made from happy, REPEAT customers.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> I think you missed my points, because you ignored much of what I offered.
> 
> Again, you provide examples of substandard bike shops. I know they exist and have been in several. I also know that those same substandard shops will size riders to their inventory, but the reputable ones don't. RBR members are consistently told to visit several shops, ride several bikes, and are offered suggestions on how to weed out the good shops from the bad.
> 
> ...



There are tons dealers in your area and all parts of the USA with zero 64cm bikes in stock. Many do not have anything over 60cm and some the tallest is 58cm. There are tons dealers in your area and all parts of the USA with zero 44cm bikes in stock. Many do not have anything under 48cm and some the smallest is 50cm. Makes offering sizing test rides kinda hard. Plus puts pressure on the shop owner and employees to sell to stock [which happens everyday as everyone knows]

I can not speak for other online retailers; but our stock is nothing like what a bike shop stocks. I think anyone paying attention knows that. I am 100% sure there is not a single bike shop in the USA that carries a stock anywhere near to the size or selection that we do.

Very few of our customers ask for stem swaps after they get their bike; but when they do we handle it in a quick and low cost manner. In addition; we often sell established customers parts at cost. Most shops do not do that -- but they do others things that we can not do for our online customers - like on the spot flat repair or brake adjustment.

But my best advise to buyers is: if they do not feel comfortable buying online; buy at a bike shop. There is a place in the market for mas nerchants, sporting goods stores, bike shops and online sellers. Choice is a good thing.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

been thinking... is a SS right for a newbie? i'm in my 20's, weigh 150, never owned a road bike (mtb tho) don't have much experience riding long routs (dont enjoy riding longer than 20 miles on my mtb on pavement) and live in NYC where theres a lot of stop and go


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> been thinking...* is a SS right for a newbie?* i'm in my 20's, weigh 150, never owned a road bike (mtb tho) don't have much experience riding long routs (dont enjoy riding longer than 20 miles on my mtb on pavement) and live in NYC where theres a lot of stop and go


It's not so much what's right for a newbie as it is what's right for a rider based on a number of factors. But I think the fact that you're hedging on this purchase indicates you're not convinced that an SS is your best choice, and you may be right.

IMO it would be good to take this purchase slow and, before making the jump, talk with some reputable LBS's about your intended purposes/ experience. Get some feedback, test ride some bikes, and work from there. 

In the interim, it might make some sense to install some suitable tires on your mtn bike and give that a go for awhile. If it works, consider a hybrid which is generally cheaper and easier to fit than drop bar road bikes.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

i already have some semi-slick tires for my MTB, i still want more aerodynamics and aggressive positioning and lightweight so i can go faster on the pavement..


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

okay i think i'm about to make this purchase, i know its a slow process but i'm in no hurry, its the winter. 

Can someone link me to a good fixed cog/lockring for me to install onto the bike? What size should i get, is it important to match the same size as the freewheel?


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

This thread is getting so long that I won't read the entire thing. Not sure what bike you are looking at now but normally a single speed with a flip flop hub will already have the lock ring installed? If I am missing something by not reading the whole thread then sorry.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

andulong said:


> This thread is getting so long that I won't read the entire thing. Not sure what bike you are looking at now but normally a single speed with a flip flop hub will already have the lock ring installed? If I am missing something by not reading the whole thread then sorry.


dont worry about the middle, its a bunch of back and fourth about buying @ bikesdirect vs buying at a bike shop etc etc

yea they usually do, such as a Langster, but IIRC, the Singlecross doesn't come with the fixed cog + lockring


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> You keep mentioning "sized by what they have in stock"....
> 
> I've worked at several bike shops, been a partner in one, and now own my own shop. In all these years, I have never worked for a shop that "sized by inventory". I'm sure they exist, but me having a 100% track record suggests that it isn't as prevalent as you assume.
> 
> ...


Sadly, sizing to stock happens in shops all across the USA everyday
I am glad you do not do it; and clearly we do not do that [plus with large enough stock there is no temptation to]

I agree that repeat customers are very important; and our percentage of repeat customers is insanely high; but each customer is important and should be given an honest opinion on sizing and other requirements. Unfortunately, that is not always the case in many shops.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

made an agreement with my lbs for the 2009 Specialized Tricross Singlecross (size 52; i'm 5'6)
$450 bike without the stock set of crappy alex rims

I just made the order online for a set of Mavic Open Pro's + Formula Hubs + DT Brass Nipples + DT Comp Spokes (2.0/1.8)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> made an agreement with my lbs for the 2009 Specialized Tricross Singlecross (size 52; i'm 5'6)
> $450 bike without the stock set of crappy alex rims
> 
> I just made the order online for a set of Mavic Open Pro's + Formula Hubs + DT Brass Nipples + DT Comp Spokes (2.0/1.8)


Congrats, nice bike! And you can't go wrong with those Open Pro's, IMHO. :thumbsup:


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

about to place the order for some Kool Stop brake pads ($12), 2x Continental Light 700cx18-25mm 36mm Presta tubes($16), and 2x Continental Ultra Race Kevlar Tires($45)

and all this before i even get my bike or wheels =(

am i missing anything? i'm ordering from jenson


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> about to place the order for some Kool Stop brake pads ($12), 2x Continental Light 700cx18-25mm 36mm Presta tubes($16), and 2x Continental Ultra Race Kevlar Tires($45)
> 
> and all this before i even get my bike or wheels =(
> 
> am i missing anything? i'm ordering from jenson


Rim strips, unless they're supplied w/ the wheelset.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Rim strips, unless they're supplied w/ the wheelset.


i think BWW ships their wheels with rim strips: http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/index.php?act=viewDoc&docId=9


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

LOUISSSSS said:


> i think BWW ships their wheels with rim strips: http://www.bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/index.php?act=viewDoc&docId=9


Yup.. looks like you're good to go! :thumbsup:


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

got my wheels today, but LUCKILY i got off work early =] what a surprise because if i didn't get off at noon today, i wouldn't have been able to pick up the bike till the following weekend. Today the weather was a nice 45 and sunny in NYC so i went for a short 5 mile long way home from the bike shop after getting my wheels at home.

the wheels came in at ~950g Front ~1150g rear. couldn't get wheel balanced on gram scale so the weights may be off. (NOOB)

Prices:
Tricross Singlecross without stock wheelset: $450 flat
Mavic OP + Forumula track hubs + DT Comp spokes + DT brass nipples: $268
Specialized Rib Cage: $10


Singlecross Porn:
























































Wheel Closeup:









Wheel/Brake clearance:


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice bike, Louis!! Congrats and ride safe!! :thumbsup:

FWIW, I don't think your numbers are that far off on the wheelset. OpenPro's are bulletproof, so I think they'll serve you well given the roads you'll be traversing.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks, will report back after i get some more riding on the bike. let me know what i should be looking for on rides to answer your questions

Heres some pics of the Conti Ultra Race 700x23 installed + Conti Light Tubes:


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## koyaanisqatsi (Aug 5, 2009)

*I suggest...*



LOUISSSSS said:


> I'm 5'6, about 29 inseam, and 150lbs
> 
> I've never owned a road bike nor road one for more than around the block. I DO have a mountain bike and know that i will get what i pay for. I do not have much money, nor do i know how to fix/adjust stuff on bikes.
> 
> ...


You can get a decent bike for $400. Most people who have responded have given good advice. For $400, I'd go to your LBSs [Not a Walmart or Sears]. You may have more than one LBS, so visit at least a couple if you can. One of them may offer just what you are looking for and be willing to do proper fitting and adjustment to your physical dimensions. For a $400 bike, I doubt they will do a complete, personal bike fit, which can take at least an hour of their time. [You may get lucky] You want to deal with someone you are comfortable with, someone who will work with you because they know you'll probably come back for accessories and a new bike if/when the times comes.

I just noticed you plan to ride in NYC. Changes everything. A Touring or Cyclocross bike may be best. They are built more robustly. I've driven on NYC streets and I'd never ride a proper road bike on those streets...hated driving my car on those streets. Another point is get out of NYC to buy it. Sales tax is 8-1/2% if I'm not mistaken. Consider purchasing in NJ or CT...I don't know what their sales taxes are. I live in Western NY State close to the PA and many people head for PA to buy clothes, food, just about anything.

I've never ridden a Mountain Bike or trail bike. Living in the country, they just do too much damage to trails and wilderness. They are fine for rough roads, but they should not be allowed off-road. I feel the same way about ATVs and Snowmobiles...they have no place off-road since they do too much damage to the terrain. Sorry. I get carried away.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

koyaanisqatsi said:


> I've never ridden a Mountain Bike or trail bike. Living in the country, they just do too much damage to trails and wilderness. They are fine for rough roads, but they should not be allowed off-road. I feel the same way about ATVs and Snowmobiles...they have no place off-road since they do too much damage to the terrain. Sorry. I get carried away.


What? I ride mountain, and long, long after all remnants of MTBs riding through mud have disappeared from the trails, there are horse hoof prints six inches deep.


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## koyaanisqatsi (Aug 5, 2009)

*Ok*



California L33 said:


> What? I ride mountain, and long, long after all remnants of MTBs riding through mud have disappeared from the trails, there are horse hoof prints six inches deep.


Everyone denies that they are even part of the problem. The grass is worn off the trail by various and sundry wheeled vehicles. Then a horse steps in the resulting mud and you blame horse-riders. Of course, in my area there are few MTB riders; and they ride their horses on the road. People here are too lazy to do anything not involving a motor vehicle. They haul out the snowmobiles and ATVs and destroy the vegetation on the trails. First thing you know, you have soil erosion on the trails that can go a couple feet deep or more. Find a less destructive hobby, or repair the damage done. Hiking on foot is not a sin.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

koyaanisqatsi said:


> Everyone denies that they are even part of the problem. The grass is worn off the trail by various and sundry wheeled vehicles. Then a horse steps in the resulting mud and you blame horse-riders. Of course, in my area there are few MTB riders; and they ride their horses on the road. People here are too lazy to do anything not involving a motor vehicle. They haul out the snowmobiles and ATVs and destroy the vegetation on the trails. First thing you know, you have soil erosion on the trails that can go a couple feet deep or more. Find a less destructive hobby, or repair the damage done. Hiking on foot is not a sin.


Lumping MTBs with 600 pound multiple 10s of horsepower ATVs is ridiculous. 

A rider on a 30 pound mountain bike with wide low pressure tires is putting down pressure patches slightly smaller than a foot, but with much less impact, certainly less than a hiker's heel strike, orders of magnitude less than a horse's hoof. MTB tires aren't inflated like roadies. 40 psi is high. They're soft. Getting your foot run over my a MTB is preferable to getting stepped on by a hiker. 

Around here in politically correct California very little single track is open to bikes, and all the trails get chewed up by horses in the winter. I see no difference in terms of trail damage between those that allow bikes, and those that don't. How would I know? Because I hike more than I MTB (at least historically, I probably now ride more). I don't see why hikers, equestrians, and cyclists can't share the dry trails. The one rule I'd like to see is one prohibiting horses from muddy trails.


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## koyaanisqatsi (Aug 5, 2009)

California L33 said:


> Lumping MTBs with 600 pound multiple 10s of horsepower ATVs is ridiculous.
> 
> A rider on a 30 pound mountain bike with wide low pressure tires is putting down pressure patches slightly smaller than a foot, but with much less impact, certainly less than a hiker's heel strike, orders of magnitude less than a horse's hoof. MTB tires aren't inflated like roadies. 40 psi is high. They're soft. Getting your foot run over my a MTB is preferable to getting stepped on by a hiker.
> 
> Around here in politically correct California very little single track is open to bikes, and all the trails get chewed up by horses in the winter. I see no difference in terms of trail damage between those that allow bikes, and those that don't. How would I know? Because I hike more than I MTB (at least historically, I probably now ride more). I don't see why hikers, equestrians, and cyclists can't share the dry trails. The one rule I'd like to see is one prohibiting horses from muddy trails.


OK. I'm actually trying to get rid of all of you...except the few hikers left in the world. My brother hiked trails in the SW. He said mountain bikes did the most damage. Hikers with lugged boots were a distant 2nd. Not to worry, a hiker could wear off-road running shoes that would do little damage. I wear work boots when I hike. Within a few minutes, no one would know I've passed through. You can do whatever you want. Perhaps all traffic should be prohibited from muddy trails. Otherwise, charge a few to use a trail for anything with the funds to be used for repair...close the trail periodically to repair and regenerate. If you're going to mess it up, fix it...you and others could volunteer time and sweat. This is why I ride on roads or, when I lived in northern VA, paved trails.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

koyaanisqatsi said:


> OK. I'm actually trying to get rid of all of you...except the few hikers left in the world. My brother hiked trails in the SW. He said mountain bikes did the most damage. Hikers with lugged boots were a distant 2nd. Not to worry, a hiker could wear off-road running shoes that would do little damage. I wear work boots when I hike. Within a few minutes, no one would know I've passed through. You can do whatever you want. Perhaps all traffic should be prohibited from muddy trails. Otherwise, charge a few to use a trail for anything with the funds to be used for repair...close the trail periodically to repair and regenerate. If you're going to mess it up, fix it...you and others could volunteer time and sweat. This is why I ride on roads or, when I lived in northern VA, paved trails.


I don't know where you get your information. It's a myth that bikes destroy trails, no matter what your brother says. On the same trails you can't tell where you've walked you can't tell someone has ridden. Two big squishy tires distribute the weight of the rider more evenly than your boots/shoes with zero strikes- and if someone is going to tell me there's a difference between boots and 'off road running shoes' I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense. Modern hiking boots have soles similar to sneakers.


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## LOUISSSSS (Dec 14, 2009)

okay lets not derail my thread about trail care and that. This is the road bike forum. Lets talk about my Tricross =]

its been way too cold to ride out. i look forward to riding everyday!


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## koyaanisqatsi (Aug 5, 2009)

*I'm done...*



LOUISSSSS said:


> okay lets not derail my thread about trail care and that. This is the road bike forum. Lets talk about my Tricross =]
> 
> its been way too cold to ride out. i look forward to riding everyday!


I'd said all I wanted to on that subject.

I'm in Western NY State and winters are long, cold, and snowy here. It could easily be a couple months, and will probably be longer, before I can ride. I'm missing the Northern VA weather, but not that area. I lived there from 1984 to 2004.


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