# Cofidis...



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

hotel raided and DiGregorio arrested in a doping investigation.

Cofidis is pretty much THE french team that has been dogged by doping rumors forever. Seems like it may have finally caught up to them.


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> hotel raided and DiGregorio arrested in a doping investigation.
> 
> Cofidis is pretty much THE french team that has been dogged by doping rumors forever. Seems like it may have finally caught up to them.


I assume this arrest relates to an ongoing investigation and has nothing to do with the Tour?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

gizzard said:


> I assume this arrest relates to an ongoing investigation and has nothing to do with the Tour?


Isn't it to do with an investigation from prior to him riding for Cofidis?

Mind you, raiding a hotel room sounds like a suspicion of ongoing doping. I get that they need to show that they're doing stuff but couldn't this have been carried out before the tour? Why wait for the world's sporting press to arrive and then arrest.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

It's from his time at Astana. Sucks for Cofidis, they have the best-looking jerseys and bikes in the peloton. That's about the only thing I can say about them since they never do anything in the Tour anyway.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

roddjbrown said:


> Isn't it to do with an investigation from prior to him riding for Cofidis?


Yes, it relates to his time with Astana. 



> Mind you, raiding a hotel room sounds like a suspicion of ongoing doping. I get that they need to show that they're doing stuff but couldn't this have been carried out before the tour? Why wait for the world's sporting press to arrive and then arrest.


Agreed. Odd timing unless ....

edit: *moskowe *beat me to it. Must type faster :blush2:


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

Maybe that the point: The arrest was timed to coincide with the first rest day of this year's Tour, with the world's press assembled, effectively guaranteeing its top billing across the sports world?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

gizzard said:


> Maybe that the point: The arrest was timed to coincide with the first rest day of this year's Tour, with the world's press assembled, effectively guaranteeing its top billing across the sports world?


Also the day when riders get their transfusions. Although at this point it would seem crazy to do such a thing in the team hotel rooms.


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

coldash said:


> Yes, it relates to his time with Astana.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Dwayne Barry said:


> Also the day when riders get their transfusions. Although at this point it would seem crazy to do such a thing in the team hotel rooms.


Given how sophisticated the detection techniques have become in recent years in terms of being able to determine transfusions, I'm not sure how of that is going on now on an organized basis. A Guardian report Tour de France 2012: Rémy Di Gregorio suspended by Cofidis after arrest | Sport | guardian.co.uk mentioned trafficking illegal substances, insinuating this this has been brewing for some time. 
Also, given the high-profile nature of this bust, it's unlikely that there are more individuals involved, other than the three already implicated.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

gizzard said:


> Given how sophisticated the detection techniques have become in recent years in terms of being able to determine transfusions,


I would bet there is "microdosing" of transfusions along with EPO going on. The name of the game is do as much as you can get away with.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I would bet there is "microdosing" of transfusions along with EPO going on. The name of the game is do as much as you can get away with.


there's been literature on how that would work. Anyway, I guess we will have to go back to "he just started to dope that is why he was not caught. The system works."


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

den bakker said:


> there's been literature on how that would work. Anyway, I guess we will have to go back to "he just started to dope that is why he was not caught. The system works."


To be fair if he's been doping for a while it's been pretty ineffective - I hope he kept the receipt.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> To be fair if he's been doping for a while it's been pretty ineffective - I hope he kept the receipt.


that one got pretty old decades ago. 
how do you know where he would have been without? assuming he is guilty.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

den bakker said:


> that one got pretty old decades ago.
> how do you know where he would have been without? assuming he is guilty.


? Was it something I said? My point was just that he hasn't done anything - I think he's stayed away on a a breakaway or two before but nothing more. If he was doping and didn't achieve much presumably without it he wouldn't have been anywhere


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> ? Was it something I said? My point was just that he hasn't done anything - I think he's stayed away on a a breakaway or two before but nothing more. If he was doping and didn't achieve much presumably without it he wouldn't have been anywhere


paris nice stage win, a mountain jersey in dauphine, Tour de l'Avenir stage, Vuelta a Asturias stage, just to cut and paste wiki since you could not bother . 
given his age he might be just before his great breakthrough. That would be very familiar.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

roddjbrown said:


> To be fair if he's been doping for a while it's been pretty ineffective - I hope he kept the receipt.


:lol:

The insult to injury!


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Also the day when riders get their transfusions. Although at this point it would seem crazy to do such a thing in the team hotel rooms.


Doing it during the Tour is also a good way to make sure the people they're trying to arrest are in France. It's probably a combination of everything mentioned -- the press splash it makes, having all the suspects in one place, and the rest day being used by dopers to speed up their recovery.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

den bakker said:


> paris nice stage win, a mountain jersey in dauphine, Tour de l'Avenir stage, Vuelta a Asturias stage, just to cut and paste wiki since you could not bother .
> given his age he might be just before his great breakthrough. That would be very familiar.


Yep, the Paris Nice stage win was the breakaway I was referring to. I didn't know/forgot about the mountains jersey in the Dauphine but then I've never really followed the polka dot jersey in the Grand Tours let alone the Dauphine.

Fair point about the age. Is 26 about the age that riders are expected to make that jump? Maybe he would have made the breakthrough, maybe he thought he needed a little help making that breakthrough


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

roddjbrown said:


> Fair point about the age. Is 26 about the age that riders are expected to make that jump?


Yes, for example Chris Froome.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

Where is DF's opinion on this. He seems to have the inside line on cycling. I wonder what his guys are saying.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

JackDaniels said:


> Yes, for example Chris Froome.


well he is not alone, other riders were late bloomers. Kohl and Schumacher come to mind.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

well, at least this keeps this year's tour interesting


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## thighmaster (Feb 2, 2006)

Weird, another Astana doper


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

den bakker said:


> well he is not alone, other riders were late bloomers. Kohl and Schumacher come to mind.


LOL :hand:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Let the Wiggins rumors begin! The guy has been riding like CRAZY this year. Former Cofids team rider....

BUT, BUT...I thought French Cycling was clean


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

DIRT BOY said:


> BUT, BUT...I thought French Cycling was clean


Don't be silly, they were simply subjected to more rigorous testing sooner, the UCI basically caught up to the French testing paradigm with the appointment of Gripper and then the Biopassport.

This is why riders like Jalabert and Virenque left the country and took out foreign racing licenses. They didn't want to be constrained by the tighter testing protocols.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Cofidis Hotel Raided, Di Grégorio Arrested At Tour De France | Cyclingnews.com

Time to clean up French cycling- the two speed peloton is bad for the sport!


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

What are the odds that Astana will not finish the Tour? Pretty high I bet.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> Cofidis Hotel Raided, Di Grégorio Arrested At Tour De France | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Time to clean up French cycling- the two speed peloton is bad for the sport!


Nobody has talked about two speeds for a number of years.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Yeah, but I'm old. . .


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## ashpelham (Jan 19, 2006)

Haven't we always suspected or better yet, known, that Astana is run by a bunch of eastern bloc organized mobsters who want to win more than anything? Doping allegations certainly won't stop them. I'd be willing to bet that there might even be a couple of high profile Astana guys who are at the last days of their career who have juiced one last time to be competitive.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ashpelham said:


> Haven't we always suspected or better yet, known, that Astana is run by a bunch of eastern bloc organized mobsters who want to win more than anything? Doping allegations certainly won't stop them. I'd be willing to bet that there might even be a couple of high profile Astana guys who are at the last days of their career who have juiced one last time to be competitive.


no need, they just take it more seriously now. plus they train hard.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

den bakker said:


> no need, they just take it more seriously now. plus they train hard.


An Astana fan boy!


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

It's pretty obvious to me why this was done publicly during the rest day........to demonstrate to the world how serious the tour is about doping control and to have another point-atable event to prove it. It's theatre.

Len


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Len J said:


> It's pretty obvious to me why this was done publicly during the rest day........to demonstrate to the world how serious the tour is about doping control and to have another point-atable event to prove it. It's theatre.
> 
> Len


This was the French police, not the Tour, not even the French anti-doping authorities.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> This was the French police, not the Tour, not even the French anti-doping authorities.


And you don't believe it was coordinated?

Len


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> This was the French police, not the Tour, not even the French anti-doping authorities.


true, although considering the size of this cash cow it is not hard to imagine an agreement being made. A less cynical approach is that be going for Cofidis (sorry one specific rider noone else knew was up to no good) on the rest day would improve the chances of actually getting physical evidence, especially if you happen to show up a bit after the morning "surprise" tests.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

SicBith said:


> Where is DF's opinion on this. He seems to have the inside line on cycling. I wonder what his guys are saying.


As I understand it the French Police had been investigating Astana for well over a year. The trail had gone cold when Remi suddenly called his supplier from a phone they had bugged. They then arrested him and two others. I had heard the police then went to the Astana hotel but I have not seen that reported anywhere. 

When he was a U23 Remi was the next big thing. He rode for one of the best amateur teams in France, VC La Pomme, and was based in Marseilles. He had some electricity early results. His attacks in Paris-Nice and the DL were amazing.....then he kinda fizzled out. He had a resurgence at Astana 

The French press are saying he tried to buy steroids but I think this is just a generic term


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Dr. Falsetti,

what do you know of former Rabobank and now Sky doctor Geert Leinders?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

The Tedinator said:


> Dr. Falsetti,
> 
> what do you know of former Rabobank and now Sky doctor Geert Leinders?


I know that several people are aggressively looking into him. I expect this will become a story by the end of the Tour. Problem is most of the Anglo media have no interest in looking into SKY

Rabobank had a team doping program that was administered by the medical staff. Geert was the head of that staff. When Rabo managment decided in 2007 that having team supported program was too risky and they were stopping it Geert was angry. He said the new direction the team was going (Clean) was the wrong one. 

Now he works at Sky


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Yeah, that is what I have found on the internet. IMO, Sky screwed the pooch by hiring him. I also saw on twitter that JV "has no idea who Geert Leinders is". Pardon my cynicism, Jonathan.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

moskowe said:


> It's from his time at Astana. Sucks for Cofidis, they have the best-looking jerseys and bikes in the peloton. That's about the only thing I can say about them since they never do anything in the Tour anyway.


Their bikes are indeed drool-worthy.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I know that several people are aggressively looking into him. I expect this will become a story by the end of the Tour. Problem is most of the Anglo media have no interest in looking into SKY
> 
> Rabobank had a team doping program that was administered by the medical staff. Geert was the head of that staff. When Rabo managment decided in 2007 that having team supported program was too risky and they were stopping it Geert was angry. He said the new direction the team was going (Clean) was the wrong one.
> _*
> Now he works at Sky*_



How interesting.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Dammit! I had DiGregorio picked for my fantasy cycling team.


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## respro (Jun 21, 2012)

I sincerely hope that there's some serious bloviating going on here. Yes, I'm serious. If half of what I've read in this thread is true I fear my love for professional cycling will go the way my love for baseball went. Post HR derby Mcguire, Sosa and the revelations that came out, I haven't watched one complete game. I love cycling because I understand the suffering it takes to make it up that hill. I don't juice so if the pros are doing it maybe I should pick another sport to watch.


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## respro (Jun 21, 2012)

*one more point*



respro said:


> I sincerely hope that there's some serious bloviating going on here. Yes, I'm serious. If half of what I've read in this thread is true I fear my love for professional cycling will go the way my love for baseball went. Post HR derby Mcguire, Sosa and the revelations that came out, I haven't watched one complete game. I love cycling because I understand the suffering it takes to make it up that hill. I don't juice so if the pros are doing it maybe I should pick another sport to watch.


Just a note, I'm not naive, I know there's been cheating for years and years. I just hoped we were getting past this.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

Don't let it get you down respro. Break out that bike of yours and ride! The open road beckons........


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> Just a note, I'm not naive, I know there's been cheating for years and years. I just hoped we were getting past this


As long as the payoff is big money and fame there will always be doping. I think we're in an era where the guys with the money to afford complex programs are now much harder to catch. The trend in PED's is toward designer drugs that are customized to the individual athlete. The problem for the sport is that it may be almost impossible to detect such an approach. Each athletes PED has it's own unique make up. It's an expensive undertaking. 

A whole different can of worms is hGH. Probably widely used in pre-season training. Very effective and currently hard to catch. Anti-doping organizations are simply freezing current samples as a deterrent. Not an ideal situation.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I know that several people are aggressively looking into him. I expect this will become a story by the end of the Tour. Problem is most of the Anglo media have no interest in looking into SKY
> 
> Rabobank had a team doping program that was administered by the medical staff. Geert was the head of that staff. When Rabo managment decided in 2007 that having team supported program was too risky and they were stopping it Geert was angry. He said the new direction the team was going (Clean) was the wrong one.
> 
> Now he works at Sky


If Sky were determined to prove you could win clean his hiring was a pretty stupid move then. Well, given their results this year not stupid, just blatant. 

Every year I have the same disheartened emotions during the tour as more revelations come out until I finally settle on hoping that next year it'll be different


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I know that several people are aggressively looking into him. I expect this will become a story by the end of the Tour. Problem is most of the *Anglo media have no interest in looking into SKY
> *
> Rabobank had a team doping program that was administered by the medical staff. Geert was the head of that staff. When Rabo managment decided in 2007 that having team supported program was too risky and they were stopping it Geert was angry. He said the new direction the team was going (Clean) was the wrong one.
> 
> Now he works at Sky


The (London) Times covered this very point in this morning's edition but that's behind a pay firewall so no point in posting a link. However, here is a link to the Daily Telegraph (another and unrelated part of the Anglo media), that airs the issue.

Tour de France 2012: David Brailsford defends Team Sky appointment of Dr Geert Leinders after doping scandal - Telegraph

Hope this helps. .


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

coldash said:


> The (London) Times covered this very point in this morning's edition but that's behind a pay firewall so no point in posting a link. However, here is a link to the Daily Telegraph (another and unrelated part of the Anglo media), that airs the issue.
> 
> Tour de France 2012: David Brailsford defends Team Sky appointment of Dr Geert Leinders after doping scandal - Telegraph
> 
> Hope this helps. .


Thanks for the link. 

Brailsford has a point, it is almost impossible to not have at least a few staff members with a dark past. Interesting that Brailsford hires Leinders at the Vuelta 2010 - then gives an interview relaxing Sky zero tolerance policy in Feb 2011

Odd that a doctor of his experience is not at the Tour. There has been much talk of Geert ever since the Rabo story came out a few months ago. Too risky to have at the Tour?


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> I know that several people are aggressively looking into him. I expect this will become a story by the end of the Tour. Problem is most of the Anglo media have no interest in looking into SKY
> 
> Rabobank had a team doping program that was administered by the medical staff. Geert was the head of that staff. When Rabo managment decided in 2007 that having team supported program was too risky and they were stopping it Geert was angry. He said the new direction the team was going (Clean) was the wrong one.
> 
> Now he works at Sky


 and Sky is sho riding good


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

True, that - I'm headed out on the fixed to the Y. Pro cycling makes baseball look like a drug-free monastery. Just think if all these cyclists could have hit and pitched a few years ago. That would be funny with the zero upper bodies most of them have.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

respro said:


> I sincerely hope that there's some serious bloviating going on here. Yes, I'm serious. If half of what I've read in this thread is true I fear my love for professional cycling will go the way my love for baseball went. Post HR derby Mcguire, Sosa and the revelations that came out, I haven't watched one complete game. I love cycling because I understand the suffering it takes to make it up that hill. I don't juice so if the pros are doing it maybe I should pick another sport to watch.


Here is the thing....

It's entertainment. And even doped, it's entertaining.....don't give it any more power than that.

As Eddy said....it doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster....those guys doping are still suffering, both in training and in races, they just go faster longer.

Some day an individual that is capable of winning the tour clean will come forward and make his blood testing daily and totally transparent through both his training and his racing.......he will also make his daily blood available for testing independantly. He will come the closest to proving his doping innocence. Until then, every extroidinary performance will be questioned.

Len


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

Len J said:


> Here is the thing....
> 
> It's entertainment. And even doped, it's entertaining.....don't give it any more power than that.
> 
> ...


Call me naive, but I think that day has arrived. Did you see Sky in the mountains in the Dauphine this year? It was ugly...like watching kids pulling the wings off butterflies. They were so dominant - all of them. And the worst part: I genuinely, deep down think they're all clean! Tomorrow could be carnage...


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

gizzard said:


> Call me naive, but I think that day has arrived. Did you see Sky in the mountains in the Dauphine this year? It was ugly...like watching kids pulling the wings off butterflies. They were so dominant - all of them. And the worst part: I genuinely, deep down think they're all clean! Tomorrow could be carnage...


If it were only Wiggins that were riding strong I'd wonder (especially with the team physican of SKY)
Add Fromme's step change in performance from 2010 to now.
Then add the fact that his domestique's are riding some of the best climbers in the world off their wheels day after day in the mountains and IMO, it passes the suspision range.

I have no idea how you can deep down believe they are riding clean.

I wish they were, but I have no such confidence.

Len


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

You referring to Richie Porte, mountain goat?


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## gizzard (Oct 5, 2005)

Len J said:


> If it were only Wiggins that were riding strong I'd wonder (especially with the team physican of SKY)
> Add Fromme's step change in performance from 2010 to now.
> Then add the fact that his domestique's are riding some of the best climbers in the world off their wheels day after day in the mountains and IMO, it passes the suspision range.
> 
> ...


Well, if that is the case, and they're doped to the gills, then you have to hand it to them - their consistency is remarkable, even admirable. They've dominated nearly every stage race since the Vuelta last year and their disdain for the anti-doping agencies is unprecedented.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

gizzard said:


> Well, if that is the case, and they're doped to the gills, then you have to hand it to them - their consistency is remarkable, even admirable. They've dominated nearly every stage race since the Vuelta last year and their disdain for the anti-doping agencies is unprecedented.



tour de suisse, giro d'italia, tour de catalonia, tour of basque country, tirreno-adriatico, tour down under. Those were some of the pro tour events they did not dominate, and which are pro tour races. 

They have dominated the races Wiggins started in, which are relatively few (and one abandoned). And Porte won one race. They have been rather selective in when to show up. Then disappear again for a month before the next sighting.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

_Then disappear again for a month before the next sighting._

Interval training....with a swim coach. It is the latest thing.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

This story just gets more strange each day

Supposedly Remi was working with some 80 year old naturalpath.....whatever that is, some hippy doctor. The guy injected Ozone (What?) and Glucose (Sugar).....yeah, sugar. 

It appears the big issue is the injections, not the contents. Injections are not allowed.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I don't believe it - it used to be vitamin B and turned out to be amphetamines - remember JFK's 'vitamin' injections? Outlawing injections, period, is a good move.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> This story just gets more strange each day
> 
> Supposedly Remi was working with some 80 year old naturalpath.....whatever that is, some hippy doctor. The guy injected *Ozone* (What?) and Glucose (Sugar).....yeah, sugar.
> 
> It appears the big issue is the injections, not the contents. Injections are not allowed.


That's what the Chili Peppers use...


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

den bakker said:


> tour de suisse, giro d'italia, tour de catalonia, tour of basque country, tirreno-adriatico, tour down under. Those were some of the pro tour events they did not dominate, and which are pro tour races.
> 
> They have dominated the races Wiggins started in, which are relatively few (and one abandoned). And Porte won one race. They have been rather selective in when to show up. Then disappear again for a month before the next sighting.


Team doesn't dominate every race.

Team wins more with number 1 rider there

Team takes break between races

FWIW, I don't think they're clean (though I do think it's feasible) but insinuating these facts are evidence is ludicrous


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