# Incessant Creaking from Integrated Headset



## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Greetings,

I have a 2012 Bianchi Sempre with an FSA Orbit IS integrated headset. After about 6 months of use, I noted that each time I rode in even lightly rainy conditions, my headset would develop a creak, and I'd have to disassemble, clean, and regrease the entire setup. I initially used park grease, but then started using Phil's Tenacious on the inside of the bearings themselves.

Does anyone have advice on the type of grease or techniques to use to keep water out of the head tube and reduce the creaking? I'm getting tired of taking the whole thing apart after each semi-wet ride, and my riding buddies are I'm sure tired of listening to the creaking when I'm out of the saddle.

Thanks much for your wisdom!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Stupid question, but is this a smaller bike than normal? Does the steering feel notchy? Check to make sure the cables aren't contacting the head tube when turning...weird I know but I've seen it on newer bikes. If it doesn't feel notchy or the cables rubbing on something then next try loosening the stem bolts almost all the way, then loosen the star nut and pull out the piece, compress and realign, then tighten the star nut, then rock the bike with the front brake on and see if you can hear and or feel the fork knocking inside the headtube, if so tighten some more, if it's already as tight as it will go then you have an issue with the headset. If it doesn't knock the retighten the stem bolts, if it still creaks you may have a bad bearing set.

That headset's seals are not very good, you can get a external headset neoprene seal made by Lizard Skins that will keep the headset sealed from water in the first place if the repair makes the headset work right.

My new bike was suppose to come with that headset but I read a bunch of negative reviews and had it swapped out for a Cane Creek 110 instead.

EDIT, I forgot, here's a great resource for headset issues: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Threadless Headset Service


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks for your advice, froze. I don't think it was the fork or loose headset, since I'm generally pretty good at setting the preload, and use a torque wrench on the stem. I'm starting to think it might be a bad bearing set, since it feels a bit gritty and the bearings don't roll smoothly when I have them out of the head tube. I'm not a big fan of this design either.

You say you've had good luck with Cane Creek bearings? Perhaps if I try those, and then use the lizard skins seal it will do the trick.

Thanks!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

digita6 said:


> Thanks for your advice, froze. I don't think it was the fork or loose headset, since I'm generally pretty good at setting the preload, and use a torque wrench on the stem. I'm starting to think it might be a bad bearing set, since it feels a bit gritty and the bearings don't roll smoothly when I have them out of the head tube. I'm not a big fan of this design either.
> 
> You say you've had good luck with Cane Creek bearings? Perhaps if I try those, and then use the lizard skins seal it will do the trick.
> 
> Thanks!


Good luck with the Cane Creek 110? I haven't had it long enough yet to determine that, only 3 weeks! However, I originally asked for a Chris King headset from Mathew at Adrenalin Bikes to be put on the Lynskey I got, he recommended the Cane Creek instead for less money! He said the Cane Creek 110 had better bearings, better seals, better steerer support, and a longer warranty at 110 years...of course in 110 years when the warranty expires I'll be 170 years old, I doubt I will be collecting on that warranty!!

It is a very smooth headset that is for sure. 

See this too: Review of Cane Creek 110 Headset - Competitive Cyclist These people agree in a more lengthy way then Mathew at Adrenalin told me.


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## forge55b (Jan 30, 2011)

Try marine grease?


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

First, take the bearings out and coat all surfaces with marine grease - particularly the bearing seats in the frame. 

The old technique of clamping the front brake and rocking the bike to feel for play does NOT work with an integrated headset. The top cap must be tightened substantially. The only thing that limits the tightness is the fork not freely returning to a straight ahead position, after a turn. Only if that happens is the to cap too tight.

If you've ridden the bike a lot with the headset too loose, the bearing seats in the frame can get damaged. Some frames have replaceable seats, but others may have an aluminum seat, that can't be removed. Park makes a tool to recut the seats and restore their function, but it's not cheap and not many bike shops will have one.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

C-40, thanks for the reply. I ordered a Cane Creek 110, and will install it after it arrives later in the week.

How thick do you usually apply the marine grease, and what do you use to clean the surfaces before applying the grease?


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

froze said:


> ... Check to make sure the cables aren't contacting the head tube when turning...weird I know but I've seen it on newer bikes....the cables rubbing on something


for sure. I built up an old steel frame this spring with parts I had on hand, and when I started riding it, the headset had an annoying squeak. I had purchased and installed a threaded cartridge bearing headset, and although it's been a while since I installed a threaded headset, the cartridge bearing design was pretty much the same installation procedure as any cartridge bearing threaded headset. Even so, I took it apart, looked at everything, reinstalled it and it still squeaked.

It was the cables rubbing against the head tube. A big DUH moment for me.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

digita6 said:


> How thick do you usually apply the marine grease, and what do you use to clean the surfaces before applying the grease?


Any XS grease will just be pushed out of the way and you can wipe it off with a rag, so be as liberal as you want. You can clean the surfaces with the same rag. No need for chemicals, degreasers, or any other magic potions.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

C-40 said:


> The old technique of clamping the front brake and rocking the bike to feel for play does NOT work with an integrated headset. The top cap must be tightened substantially. The only thing that limits the tightness is the fork not freely returning to a straight ahead position, after a turn. Only if that happens is the to cap too tight.


This is not true. This info comes from Park Tools at: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Threadless Headset Service

READ: "NOTE: Another test of play is to place the bike on ground and grab the front brake tightly. Press downward on the handlebars and rock the bike forward and back. A knocking sensation may indicate a loose headset. In effect this does the same thing as grabbing and pulling on the fork. However, play in the brake caliper arms may also cause a knocking. Front suspension forks may also have play in the legs, which can cause a knocking.If the adjustment seems very tight, there may be other problems in the headset. Bearing surfaces may be worn out, or the ball bearing retainers may be upside down, or a seal may be improperly aligned. If play always seems present no matter the adjustment, the steering column may be too long for the stem and top cap. Add spacers beneath stem in this case."


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

C40 is right, you are wrong. Park info is old school and does not work for an integrated headset. You end up with it too loose that way.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

froze said:


> This is not true. This info comes from Park Tools at: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Threadless Headset Service
> 
> 
> > My statement IS true. The folks at Park are stupid. I've owned a lot of frames with integrated headset and quickly found how worthless it is to use the old method of rocking the bike to feel for bearing play. That method works great with an old-school conventional headset, but not with an integrated.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

C-40 said:


> froze said:
> 
> 
> > This is not true. This info comes from Park Tools at: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Threadless Headset Service
> ...


I agree.
People like to use Park as the definitive word on bike repair. That would be like using Snap-On as your primary source for auto repair knowledge. Believe me...there were many instances where Snap-On was wrong or just added steps that involved more tools. Would you use a doctor who got all of his information and knowledge from medical device manufacturers?

With an integrated headset, you can use the brake/rocking technique to find out if the headset is REALLY loose, but that's as far as it goes. If Park says otherwise, they are - as C40 says - stupid.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks, I checked the cable housings based on your advice, and that doesn't appear to be the problem. Great suggestion though, and I'll file this away as a troubleshooting step for the future.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> With an integrated headset, you can use the brake/rocking technique to find out if the headset is REALLY loose, but that's as far as it goes. If Park says otherwise, they are - as C40 says - stupid.


I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume that they copied over information that they had in there for other headsets without double-checking. If that's the case, they should modify this advice if it is brought to their attention, since for better or worse, many people do look to this as a resource.

And as you mention, it can indicate if the headset is REALLY loose, but is not generally useful otherwise. If that was the intention in listing this as a technique for assessing integrated headsets, then perhaps a little more finesse or additional explanation is required on their part.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

C-40 said:


> froze said:
> 
> 
> > This is not true. This info comes from Park Tools at: Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Threadless Headset Service
> ...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> C-40 said:
> 
> 
> > froze said:
> ...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

froze said:


> Stupid question, but is this a smaller bike than normal? Does the steering feel notchy? Check to make sure the cables aren't contacting the head tube when turning...weird I know but I've seen it on newer bikes. If it doesn't feel notchy or the cables rubbing on something then next try loosening the stem bolts almost all the way, *then loosen the star nut* and pull out the piece, compress and realign, then tighten the star nut, then rock the bike with the front brake on and see if you can hear and or feel the fork knocking inside the headtube, if so tighten some more, if it's already as tight as it will go then you have an issue with the headset. If it doesn't knock the retighten the stem bolts, if it still creaks you may have a bad bearing set.
> 
> That headset's seals are not very good, you can get a external headset neoprene seal made by Lizard Skins that will keep the headset sealed from water in the first place if the repair makes the headset work right.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, you can't loosen a "star-nut". They are set in the steel or alloy steerer tube w/ a hammer and then left, basically they're permanent. Mechanical expanders that are used in carbon steerers are of course removable and replaceable. 
I'll third C-40 and Platy's posts...you don't adjust a normal threadless headset the same way you adjust an integrated headset. The integrated headsets need more preload on the bearings to reach proper adjustment, or they're just end up being loose. Anyone that believes the Park Tool site to be definitive location for mechanical knowledge is pretty clueless. And that included a metric sh*t-ton of incompetent LBS mechanics.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

So you watch two videos that explain how to adjust a conventional threadless headset and think that's relevant? It's not.

An integrated headset is an entirely different animal. It needs a substantial preload on the bearings - way beyond just removing "play". The only time an integrated headset is too tight is if the front wheel fails to self-center, after a turn. If the happens, then you need to loosen the stem clamp bolts, and back off the top cap tension before retightening the stem clamp bolts.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

So called "professional mechanics" at LBS...........headset adjustments are the least of the worries. I can't tell you how many times I've redone install from LBS's on new bikes in our group. FD's not installed and setup properly, RD hangers loose and not aligned, cables routed wrong, brake shoes not setup correctly, never mind umpteen Di2 installs completely wrong. I'm called a "miracle worker" by the guys in my group.......in reality, all I do is care to understand and research before I do the work. That means the right tools, the right knowledge, the right documentation, and knowing what my limitations are and when to ask. Unfortunately, most LBS's employ self important shade tree mechanics who "just go by feel". Rant over.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

goodboyr said:


> So called "professional mechanics" at LBS...........headset adjustments are the least of the worries. I can't tell you how many times I've redone install from LBS's on new bikes in our group. FD's not installed and setup properly, RD hangers loose and not aligned, cables routed wrong, brake shoes not setup correctly, never mind umpteen Di2 installs completely wrong. I'm called a "miracle worker" by the guys in my group.......in reality, all I do is care to understand and research before I do the work. That means the right tools, the right knowledge, the right documentation, and knowing what my limitations are and when to ask. Unfortunately, most LBS's employ self important shade tree mechanics who "just go by feel". Rant over.


I've found this to be the case as well. One very large LBS in my area had a head mechanic who could tell me literally nothing about replacing my BB30 bearings. He wasn't clear on the differences between PF30, BB30, BBRight, etc.


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## digita6 (Sep 29, 2012)

I've finally received and installed a new Cane Creek 110 IS. It is really a well engineered piece of equipment, leagues better than the FSA Orbit it replaced. High quality bearings and actual seals on top and bottom. Creak gone, and the most I can hope is that I don't notice it from here on out.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

goodboyr said:


> So called "professional mechanics" at LBS...........headset adjustments are the least of the worries. I can't tell you how many times I've redone install from LBS's on new bikes in our group. FD's not installed and setup properly, RD hangers loose and not aligned, cables routed wrong, brake shoes not setup correctly, never mind *umpteen Di2 installs completely wrong*. I'm called a "miracle worker" by the guys in my group.......in reality, all I do is care to understand and research before I do the work. That means the right tools, the right knowledge, the right documentation, and knowing what my limitations are and when to ask. Unfortunately, most LBS's employ self important shade tree mechanics who "just go by feel". Rant over.


This is one thing i've been seeing a LOT of lately. I swear that on EVERY Di2 bike i've seen that we didn't build, the mechanic hasn't touched the support screw on the front derailleur. On damn near all of them the limit screws aren't adjusted properly. Crazy when you consider how expen$ive most of these bikes are.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

I had a dura ace 9000 build brought to me because the front shifting was crap. Obviously wrong since 9000 is famous for the front shifting quality. The rider had been back to his store three times to no avail. Mechanic told him.....that's the way it is. What did I see? No support plate bolt, cable tension wrong, didnt mount the cable in the correct way using the little plastic jig. So basically he just slapped the FD on just like he would do if he was building a kids bike. This was a brand new madone 7. It was sad. Rider asked me to install his power meter cuz the mechanic when asked told him that that was "impossible" and only a shimano crank would fit on the frame. How can you sell a 10k$ bike and pull that crap?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> froze said:
> 
> 
> > C-40 said:
> ...


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## black20 (Sep 10, 2012)

Ok bringing a thread back. I have a Tange Seiki Integrated headset on my daily bike and it has developed a "tick" noise everytime my front wheel hits a bump on the road. After some tinkering and feeling around I've concluded it's coming from the headset. I loosened the stem bolts and tightened the cap some more and now the noise is 90% gone. I'd like fix it completely if I could. My question is how far can I tighten the preload before I start doing damage? To C-40, what do you mean by the steering failing to return to center? I can pick up the front end and flop steering around without much "drag".


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

If the headset is too tight, you have to ride the bike to feel it. A bike wants to go straight, just like a motorcycle. You have to countersteer, to make it turn. After a turn, a bike should resume a straight ahead path, with no help from the rider. If you have to turn the bars to go straight, you'll notice it.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

If you have been riding in any amount of wet and/or salty weather, the lower bearing receives an awful lot of stuff thrown at it from the front wheel. I had a lower integrated bearing on my Fuji winter bike disintegrate from corrosion. If this has high mileage or poor conditions mileage, it's pretty easy and worthwhile once in a while to remove the fork and check and regrease the lower headset bearing.


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## black20 (Sep 10, 2012)

I've ridden the bike after tightening the preload and it doesn't feel like what C-40 described so I'm pretty sure I'm good there. I've tightened the top cap bolt as far as I feel comfortable with. Any more and it feels like I'm going to pull threads or round off the allan bolt. Awkwardly enough it still doesn't feel like the steering is binding. Shrugs. I'm going to take it apart soon and regrease everything. If that doesn't do it, looks like I'm buying a new headset. Next question. Is there a difference between bicycle grease and automotive chassis grease? I have alot of the latter but nothing bicycle specific.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

black20 said:


> I've ridden the bike after tightening the preload and it doesn't feel like what C-40 described so I'm pretty sure I'm good there. I've tightened the top cap bolt as far as I feel comfortable with. Any more and it feels like I'm going to pull threads or round off the allan bolt. Awkwardly enough it still doesn't feel like the steering is binding. Shrugs. I'm going to take it apart soon and regrease everything. If that doesn't do it, looks like I'm buying a new headset. Next question. Is there a difference between bicycle grease and automotive chassis grease? I have alot of the latter but nothing bicycle specific.


This description sounds like the top cap is bottoming on the steerer tube, or secondly that the expander plug has pulled up. Check that you have sufficient spacers, and that the plug is sufficiently inserted and tight.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

goodboyr said:


> I had a dura ace 9000 build brought to me because the front shifting was crap. Obviously wrong since 9000 is famous for the front shifting quality. The rider had been back to his store three times to no avail. Mechanic told him.....that's the way it is. What did I see? No support plate bolt, cable tension wrong, didnt mount the cable in the correct way using the little plastic jig. So basically he just slapped the FD on just like he would do if he was building a kids bike. This was a brand new madone 7. It was sad. Rider asked me to install his power meter cuz the mechanic when asked told him that that was "impossible" and only a shimano crank would fit on the frame. How can you sell a 10k$ bike and pull that crap?


I wonder if that mechanic knows that you can order P1 bikes through Trek w/ an SRM? What a clueless idiot.


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## black20 (Sep 10, 2012)

bikerjulio said:


> This description sounds like the top cap is bottoming on the steerer tube, or secondly that the expander plug has pulled up. Check that you have sufficient spacers, and that the plug is sufficiently inserted and tight.


It doesn't seem like the star nut is slipping in the steer tube. If it was, I would be able to turn the cap bolt but not achieve any additional preload. Right now it feels like the cap bolt bottoms and the steering doesn't even feel overly stiff. How much gap should there be between the steer tube to the top of the stem? I have a feeling the cap is bottoming out on the tube. I left the stem bolts tight and removed the cap, right now there's about a 2mm gap with the headset preloaded. How much gap do I need for the cap to not bottom on the tube?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

black20 said:


> It doesn't seem like the star nut is slipping in the steer tube. If it was, I would be able to turn the cap bolt but not achieve any additional preload. Right now it feels like the cap bolt bottoms and the steering doesn't even feel overly stiff. How much gap should there be between the steer tube to the top of the stem? I have a feeling the cap is bottoming out on the tube. I left the stem bolts tight and removed the cap, right now there's about a 2mm gap with the headset preloaded. How much gap do I need for the cap to not bottom on the tube?


There are several styles of top cap. Some are flattish, and 2mm of clearance should be enough. Some have slightly rounded bottoms and may need a little more clearance. Easiest thing to do is add a thin spacer ring on top of the stem and try again.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

bikerjulio said:


> There are several styles of top cap. Some are flattish, and 2mm of clearance should be enough. Some have slightly rounded bottoms and may need a little more clearance. Easiest thing to do is add a thin spacer ring on top of the stem and try again.


I agree with this, try a spacer, their cheap if you don't already have one, and if it doesn't work your only out a small amount of time and maybe a couple of bucks if you don't have a spacer. 

Spacer's are nothing, if you can find any kind of washer (steel, carbon, rubber, etc) the size of the stem, not the top cap, about 3/32nds (2mm) of an inch thick you can use that to see if it will work. And remember the top cap isn't holding anything so you don't need to wrench down on it just snug it. If the washer works but you want something to match the stem than go and buy a washer to match.


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