# shortening the stem?



## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

So, i bought a new bike, even though on paper, it has the same top tube length as my old bike, at 54cm(i measured both!), but it just feels a bit long to reach the brake hood
My old bike is a traditional steel bike with "standard" geometry that was popular back in the mid 90's. New bike is a Litespeed L1, with 130mm stem with 6 degree, the seating position makes it a more "relaxed" posture, but the brake hood just feels further away.

Now, is it safe to replace the 130mm stem with a 90mm or 60mm? i looked at the stem and if i were to shortening down to 60mm, the handlebar would practically be right at the headtube! or is that the wrong way adjust fit to a bike?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

First measure how far the saddle is behind the crank by backing the bike up against a wall, measuring the distances from the wall to the crank and center of the saddle, then subtracting the two. Is it the same as your old bike? Should it be and do you want it to be the same?

Next measure the distance from the center of the saddle to the portion of the bar you usually ride on, tops or hoods. Is that the same, should it be, do you want it to be?

130 mm stem is unusually long for a stock bike. Are you measuring from the center of the bars to the center of the steerer it as shown in the following link? 

Bike Stem Calculator - Brightspoke

You can certainly go shorter to 90 or even 60mm. Some might say it will affect handling but in my experience and IMO is will have no significant effect.


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Thank you looigi, i'll do the measurement on Sunday to figure out the difference.

I measure the stem from both end(beyond the center of bar and steerer), to get the number 130mm, so it's probably a 100mm stem, then i'll definitely need to shortening down to 60mm(estimation inside my head).

Basically, i'm not really trying to re-create the exact old posture from old bike, i just want a closer hood by shortening the stem and wanting to know if it would affect the dynamic of the steering feel.

I'm not picky even though i rode my old bike for 18 years, i'm still young and flexible at 34, and with about 2 hours total on new bike, i'm very comfortable for most part.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

You didn't say how you arrived at your previous bike fit, but I'm sure you are aware that there are a number of rules of thumb which establish a good starting point for most people of typical body proportions. They are in order (may need iteration if far off):

Saddle height adjusted so that the straightest the knee gets during normal pedaling is between 20 and 30 degrees. (during normal pedaling because some people pedal a bit toe down and some a bit heel down which means the saddle should be positioned a little higher for the former and a bit lower for the latter to get the correct amount of knee bend). 

Saddle fore/aft position adjusted so that the the front of the knee is over the front pedal spindle when the crank is horizontal as determined with a weight on string.

Tops of the bars even with the top of the saddle to 10 cm below the saddle depending on preference.

Length of the stem selected so that the tops of the bars obscure the front wheel axle when you look down in normal riding position. 

These are of course just starting positions which may not work well for everybody and which can be changed according to specific preferences of physiologic needs.

Also, it can take quite a few hours to get accustomed and adapt to a different position.


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Well, my old bike was my 16th birthday gift, we went into our LBS to measure me up and chose the bike that we could afford with the components that i wanted. It fit me well back then, it still rides very comfortable for me, 18 years later, i guess i haven't grown much taller since then, still at 5"6


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> So, i bought a new bike, even though on paper, it has the same top tube length as my old bike, at 54cm(i measured both!), but it just feels a bit long to reach the brake hood
> My old bike is a traditional steel bike with "standard" geometry that was popular back in the mid 90's. New bike is a Litespeed L1, with 130mm stem with 6 degree, the seating position makes it a more "relaxed" posture, but the brake hood just feels further away.
> 
> Now, is it safe to replace the 130mm stem with a 90mm or 60mm? i looked at the stem and if i were to shortening down to 60mm, the handlebar would practically be right at the headtube! or is that the wrong way adjust fit to a bike?


Changing from 130 to 90 or 60 is an extremely radical change adn indicates something is very amiss if the top tubes measure the same. 

You didn't say what stem you're using on the old bike vs. the 130 on the new one. 

You don't say if you've set both saddles in the same place vis-a-vis the bottom bracket. You can't compare reach until you do that (see advice given above).

You say the old bike is "standard" geometry, which I will take to mean it has a horizontal top tube. You don't say what the new bike is. If it's a sloping top tube, you have to measure the "horizontal" top tube length to compare it to the old bike.

You dont' say how the seat tube angles of the two bikes compare. A steeper seat tube angle will result in a longer functional top tube since the saddle will have to be set back further on the rails to achieve the same positon over the bottom bracket.

Take the advise mentioned above to set the saddle close to identical between the two bikes. Make sure the height is the same too.

Then determine how the "horizontal top tube" measurements of the two bikes compare either by measuring or by looking at manufacturer's webs site. Compare the seat tube angles and head tube lengths while you're at it.

Then tell us what you think. It will be interesting to see what you come up with because, like I said, that 130 - 90 (or 60) difference is very large.


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Thank you for you guy's input

I understand the 2 bikes have different geometry and i realized i wrongly estimated the size of the bike based on the same top tube length. I do love the new bike, i'm reluctant to return it. It's not a horrible fit for me, but with you guys' input, i'm realizing and understanding more what the problem/difference is, between the 2 bikes.

Old bike had a Cinelli stem, i believe it's 120mm length(properly measured). New one has a Zipp Service Course SL, i measured it wrong at 130mm, but if i were to use loogi's proper measuring method, i'm guessing the stem length is about 110mm or 100mm.

My method of setting up the new bike, is only by adjusting the seat height, and both bike have the seat height set to my prefered leg reach.(picture of new bike does not show the proper seat height, picture was taken before pedal was installed)

I'm currently away from home over the weekend, i'll use loogi's method to measure the difference in term of reach between new bike and old bike and try to determine how much shorter stem i can try to get.

as a side note, is it safe to "flip" the seat post backward so that my seat would be pushed forward closer to the handlebar, would that cause weakness to the post? or would the only problem might be the odd location and discomfort?

I'm simply a casual weekend warrior rider, looking for comfortable riding position for 2 to 4 hours ride, i won't be racing don't need to set up my bike in certain way, and my gut feeling tells me that shortening the stem "might" help, that's why i asked the question regarding safety by shortening it.

old bike in white, and new bike in black.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> Thank you for you guy's input
> 
> I understand the 2 bikes have different geometry and i realized i wrongly estimated the size of the bike based on the same top tube length. I do love the new bike, i'm reluctant to return it. It's not a horrible fit for me, but with you guys' input, i'm realizing and understanding more what the problem/difference is, between the 2 bikes.
> 
> ...


Step 1 - get the seat position right - not by reach, but by position over the pedals. Period.

Therefore your question about flipping the seat post to get the saddle closer to the handlebar is moot - that isn't how you position the saddle.

Compare the two bikes in terms of saddle position over the crank and the "horizontal top tube" measurement and let us know what you come up with.


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Camilo said:


> Step 1 - get the seat position right - not by reach, but by position over the pedals. Period.


I'm sorry, i re-read that sentence like, 20 times, and i'm still not sure what do you mean by get the seat position right?

I mean, isn't all i need to do is change the height of the post? i understand i can slide the seat back and forth, and tilt the saddle nose up or down. I find myself very comfortable with the saddle position as is, when i adjust the height to my comfortable leg reach.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> I'm sorry, i re-read that sentence like, 20 times, and i'm still not sure what do you mean by get the seat position right?
> 
> I mean, isn't all i need to do is change the height of the post? i understand i can slide the seat back and forth, and tilt the saddle nose up or down. I find myself very comfortable with the saddle position as is, when i adjust the height to my comfortable leg reach.


Assuming sizing is right, the basics of a bike fit are to first dial in saddle height, fore/ aft, tilt, _then_ address reach/ drop. 

Not being critical, but judging from your posts I suggest seeking out a reputable LBS fitter and opting for a standard fitting. I think it'll better your odds of getting a good fit, again, assuming sizing is right.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> So, i bought a new bike, even though on paper, it has the same top tube length as my old bike, at 54cm(i measured both!), but it just feels a bit long to reach the brake hood
> My old bike is a traditional steel bike with "standard" geometry that was popular back in the mid 90's. New bike is a Litespeed L1, with 130mm stem with 6 degree, the seating position makes it a more "relaxed" posture, but the brake hood just feels further away.
> 
> Now, is it safe to replace the 130mm stem with a 90mm or 60mm? i looked at the stem and if i were to shortening down to 60mm, the handlebar would practically be right at the headtube! or is that the wrong way adjust fit to a bike?


As others have worked out your stem is probably a 100 mm stem if measured the correct way. Anyway I wouldn't go shorter than say 90 mm on a roadbike.

One remedy could be you mount (if not already done) a very compact road handle bar with a very short reach and drop. 

Can you bring the bike back and swapping it for another one? It seems to me the frame is not right for you.


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## MikeWMass (Oct 15, 2011)

dracula said:


> Anyway I wouldn't go shorter than say 90 mm on a roadbike.
> 
> One remedy could be you mount (if not already done) a very compact road handle bar with a very short reach and drop.


What difference does it make if you get your hands in a certain position by shortening the stem or shortening the bars? I have never understood this. Also, as long as I am going off on a tangent, I am unconvinced that the length of the stem changes the handling. I can see that it would make a (small) difference in weight distribution, but as long as there is enough weight on the front tire to keep it from washing out, it still shouldn't matter.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

I would position your saddle properly and the adjust the handlebars to the most comfortable height and this will then dictate stem length. I second the suggestion to find a good shop that will do a bike fitting. Too many variable to fit someone on a forum.


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions above.
I guess my half-assed idea of shortening the stem is probably not the best solution to my problem.

I will first adjust my seat position, tweak it around first, and see how it feels, then measure the distance as looigi suggested, then think about shortening the stem. Away from home at in-laws this weekend, can't wait to go home and try the adjustments!


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Hahahaha, I'm an idiot!!!!
So I got home and started playing with the saddle position, first thing I did, slide the saddle forward by 10mm, and tried again, omg, that solved the problem!!!!

I can't believe I didn't think of adjusting the saddle before considering changing stem length' thanks so much guys, it really helps to have other people with a clear head!

Now brake levers/shifter is super easy to reach/operate and hood is a pleasure to hold, the old 1994 sti hood is simply too short


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> Hahahaha, I'm an idiot!!!!
> So I got home and started playing with the saddle position, first thing I did, slide the saddle forward by 10mm, and tried again, omg, that solved the problem!!!!
> 
> I can't believe I didn't think of adjusting the saddle before considering changing stem length' thanks so much guys, it really helps to have other people with a clear head!
> ...


If this works for you, that's good, but it's not what was meant by 'getting saddle adjustments set first', then adjust for reach/ drop. 

By moving the saddle forward, you incorrectly adjusted (or more accurately, compensated) for excessive reach rather than getting fore/ aft positioned in relation to setback/ KOPS. Your method can move rider weight too far forward, placing more weight on the arms/ hands. 

Using the KOPS +/- method better balances a rider, f/r. Once that's set, _then_ adjust for reach/ drop with different length/ angled stems and spacer configurations.


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## JasonLopez (Aug 19, 2012)

I run a 60mm stem on my road bike down from the 140mm that was on it used. Everyone will hem and haw like moreons that it "changes" the bike and will be 'incorrect'. Don't listen to them. Shorter the stem the 'twitchier' it handles. I like that. Larger frames and shorter stems, so what, as long as it all fits and your knees aren't hittin' the bars.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JasonLopez said:


> I run a 60mm stem on my road bike down from the 140mm that was on it used. Everyone will hem and haw like moreons that it "changes" the bike and will be 'incorrect'. Don't listen to them. Shorter the stem the 'twitchier' it handles. I like that. *Larger frames and shorter stems, so what, as long as it all fits* and your knees aren't hittin' the bars.


The bold statement means your bike probably _doesn't_ fit. 

Or, put another way, that shorter stem isn't what's making the handling on your bike twitchy, it's that you're riding incorrectly sized bikes, thus the _need_ for the shorter stem.

That aside, I'd rather be a moreon riding a correctly sized bike with a moderate stem resulting in correct f/r weight distribution than not, so we're both happy! :thumbsup:


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## mudskipper (Mar 21, 2012)

Hi qwertasdfg24, just curious how the bike is working out. I'm actually looking at this bike myself and curious what people think about it. What size L1 did you get, the S or M? I'm also coming from a vintage frame, downtube shifters and all!


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Hi mudskipper, it's great, i freaking love it.I bought the medium one, it's a tiny bit big for me, but adjusting the saddle forward solved the problem for me, and when i placed both bike side by side, the measurement is almost identical.

old bike weighed 24 lbs, new bike was 17 lbs with pedals(i use a body scale, might not be the most acurate), the "lightness" is a bit freaky at first, especially cornering. I gotta admit, coming from Ultegra to Dura-Ace, i don't notice any improvement in shifting feel/precision.

It's a huge jump in term of upgrade in general, but i don't know about durability of carbon frame the more i read on the forum, hahaha


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## heybrady (Jul 3, 2011)

As mentioned above, movi the seat forward to help reach is not a good idea. That could throw off your knew/leg position in relation to the pedals. 

First, set your seat for proper KOPS then adjust stem to a comfortable reach. Reason for this is because if your knee is too far forward or back of the pedal it will reduce the power you can apply to the pedal. 

As you unintentionally found, a 10mm difference I stem is actually quite a lot. Going from a 100 to a 60 would be crazy.


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## mudskipper (Mar 21, 2012)

Good to hear your thoughts on the bike. Hopefully it will last you as long as your last one!


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## JasonLopez (Aug 19, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> The bold statement means your bike probably _doesn't_ fit.


It _didn't_ fit. I fixed it! : D

Got it for a steal of a deal so the frame being 1 size large didn't bother me too much, and I actually like the twitchy handling. Makes countersteering snappy and quick to lean.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

JasonLopez said:


> *It didn't fit. I fixed it! * : D
> 
> Got it for a steal of a deal so the frame being 1 size large didn't bother me too much, and I actually like the twitchy handling. Makes countersteering snappy and quick to lean.


lol, not exactly. More accurately, the bike is not sized correctly for you and f/r weight distribution is likely off 'some' (resulting in that twitchy handling you like). 

But, you did compensate for excessive reach with a short stem. Not an ideal fix (which I suspect you suspect), but if you're happy, I'm happy. :wink5:


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> Hi mudskipper, it's great, i freaking love it.I bought the medium one, it's a tiny bit big for me, but adjusting the saddle forward solved the problem for me, and when i placed both bike side by side, the measurement is almost identical.
> 
> old bike weighed 24 lbs, new bike was 17 lbs with pedals(i use a body scale, might not be the most acurate), the "lightness" is a bit freaky at first, especially cornering. I gotta admit, coming from Ultegra to Dura-Ace, i don't notice any improvement in shifting feel/precision.
> 
> It's a huge jump in term of upgrade in general, but i don't know about durability of carbon frame the more i read on the forum, hahaha


qwertasdfg24, I'm still not sure you understand the correct steps in getting the fit right, and/or the way to set up the two bikes idendical. It sounds like you just moved that saddle either to get the reach right, or just by guess. Either way, you really should just back up and do it right. It only takes a 1/2 hour or so.

When we say get the fore-aft saddle position first, we do not mean get it in the position that makes the reach feel right. Fore-aft saddle position is set up to get your butt/knee/thigh in the right position over the pedals for your own comfort, effiicency and physical well-being. THEN you adjust the reach, etc.

If you're comfortable on your OLD bike, do this:

Get yourself positioned on a trainer, or leaning against a wall so that you can spin the pedals forwards (trainer) or backward (leaning against wall) a few times to get your butt "settled" into the normal riding position on the saddle. 

Make sure your feet are on the pedal in the normal riding position - easy to do if you're clipped in.

Then, stop pedaling with the crank arms in horizontal position, one forward, one rearward.

Take a plumb bob and drop it directly downward from some "landmark" on your knee. I use the tibeal head (top of tibea bone). Some use the patella. Doesn't matter as long as you're consistent.

Measure carefully, to the 1/8 inch or 1/4 cm, where the plumb bob is compared to the center of the pedal spindle. I.e. in front? dead center? rearward? etc.

This is what people call the "KOPS" (knee-over-pedal-spindle) method. Many people use it to actually set their saddle to achieve an exact KOPS position, but most now use it just as a technique to determine where their preferred position is. For example, I use the technique, but know that my preferred position is about 1/2 inch or more than a cm behind the spindle.

Then do the same steps on your new bike and slide the saddle forward or rearward to duplicate that position. 

Tweek the saddle height if necessary and re-tweek the fore-aft if necessary.

THEN compare the reach and adjust the stem lenght as needed.

If your two saddles were identical, you could drop the plumb bob from some landmark point on the saddle (like the nose), and duplicate from that. But your two saddles are quite different and therefore you really need to set up by your body instead.

Also, even if you were using identical saddles, if the two bikes had different seat tube angles, the position on the rails would be different, so you can't really use that (position on the rails) unless you have identical saddles on identical frames. So, just go through the body measurement/plumb bob thing.

With an excellent bike like your new one, this stuff should be done correctly, not hap hazardly. This stuff is really easy, takes a little time (1/2 hour or so if you've never done it before), but is really the only way to set up the bike.

When I set up a new bike, whether or not I'm comparing it to an old bike, I go in these steps:

Adjust the saddle height using the heel on the pedal method, or measuring compared to my old bike.

Adjust the saddle dead level or "1/2 bubble" nose up.

Adjust the fore-aft using a plumb bob from the saddle itself, since I use identical saddles on all my bikes. If I didn't, I'd use the KOPS method. I would never just slide it to make the reach work out, nor would I ever just use the positin on the rails to set it.

Then I'd adjust the stem and brake hoods to make the bike either fit like the old one, or make it comfortable for it's intended purpose.

I'd mark the seat post and the saddle rails and then tweek all the above in 1/8 inch or 1/4 cm increments after about 5 rides, if it didn't feel just right.

This definitely sounds much more involved than it is: it's easy and just takes a few minutes.


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## JasonLopez (Aug 19, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> lol, not exactly. More accurately, the bike is not sized correctly for you and f/r weight distribution is likely off 'some' (resulting in that twitchy handling you like).
> 
> But, you did compensate for excessive reach with a short stem. Not an ideal fix (which I suspect you suspect), but if you're happy, I'm happy. :wink5:


I'm happy we're happy!


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## qwertasdfg24 (Sep 18, 2012)

Well, camilo, you're so enthusiastic about helping me that I felt I need to fess up!
After creating this thread and got some initial reply from you guys, I hit YouTube, and watched a few how to set saddle properly. Initially, when I moved the saddle forward, it did screw up KOPS a little, and after a few rides, the bar was still too far(by 30mm, using looigi's measurement info). So I finally cave in and bought a 60mm stem,moved back the saddle to where it's supposed to be. I now honestly have a very comfortable KOPS position, while the reach to bar/hood IS perfect. I guess due to my slow speed and/or the nature of my riding habit, I can not tell any different behavior in the steering with short stem, it still handle as I expect it to.

It's amazing how much you guys try, to help a newbie like me, I truly appreciate it!


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

qwertasdfg24 said:


> Well, camilo, you're so enthusiastic about helping me that I felt I need to fess up!
> After creating this thread and got some initial reply from you guys, I hit YouTube, and watched a few how to set saddle properly. Initially, when I moved the saddle forward, it did screw up KOPS a little, and after a few rides, the bar was still too far(by 30mm, using looigi's measurement info). So I finally cave in and bought a 60mm stem,moved back the saddle to where it's supposed to be. I now honestly have a very comfortable KOPS position, while the reach to bar/hood IS perfect. I guess due to my slow speed and/or the nature of my riding habit, I can not tell any different behavior in the steering with short stem, it still handle as I expect it to.
> 
> It's amazing how much you guys try, to help a newbie like me, I truly appreciate it!


Although I kind of set my standard for a frame that allows me to fit it with a minimum of 90, I personally don't have the strong attitude that some have that 60mm is just too short. I'm with you in the sense that most of us don't notice nuances of handling, etc. that some people do, and I probably wouldn't really care if I needed a 60mm stem - as long as I was comfortable riding it. In my experience having owned some pretty nice bikes and rented some pretty low end bikes, if the bike fits, it feels like a fast bike and is fun to ride, no matter what the other details.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

I had a similar situation and shortened too much (to 90mm) and my knees were hitting the bars when standing/climbing steep slopes. I ended up getting 100mm and it's perfect. So in future I'll try to err on the side of "still too long" vs "not long enough" .


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## motoxman (Nov 12, 2012)

I just purchased the same bike. L1 litespeed. The stock stem is way to long. I went down to a 90 mm , yes the front end gets quicker steering, but no big deal, I also had to move the saddle up as far as it would go. I'm long legged and short waisted. Overall I'm pleased with the bike and the way it performs. It is very light and stiff. Accelerates very quick.


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## bryon (Sep 4, 2012)

From the looks of your stem you can also flip it over and it would raise your bars some which effectively shorten the reach.


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