# How do I prevent hot spots on the front of my feet?



## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I just started training for a Century in April and a Sprint Triathlon in August and want to solve my hot spot(s) problem that the areas next to the balls of my feet get when riding over 40 miles. I am riding a Specialized Sirrus with Shimano PD-M520 pedals with Specialized Sonoma shoes, which have a stamped out piece of sheet metal under the front of the foot. After last weekend’s 40 mike ride, the bottom of my left foot (from the ball to the outer edge and around the toes) ached for a few days after the ride and is still a little numb and slightly tingly. Is there a remedy to this problem? I have read that a little built up bump in your insole insert that are located next to the ball of your foot can help however; my Specialized inserts already have them and a road specific pedal with a larger platform and less rocking slop than that of a mountain pedal setup also can alleviate hot spots. Any suggestions.


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## kykr13 (Apr 12, 2008)

Hot spot feels like somebody lit a match under your foot. Not much fun...

One standard remedy is moving your cleats back (a little bit, and you might want to mark where they were in case you need to move them back), but what helped me were the fairly-pricey Specialized insoles with the metatarsal bump in them. Made a huge difference for me. 

My commuter is a cross bike with Crank Bros MTB pedals on it, which are pretty similar to SPD's like yours. I've ridden good enough distances on it to have a problem if it would happen for me, but it hasn't. I have pretty good and stiff MTB shoes which I'd guess have at least as much to do with it as how much area of the cleat contacts the pedal (vs something like SPD-SL, Look, etc). And I only have those insoles in my road shoes.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

The metatarsal button you mention is supposed to spread the pressure and alleviate the condition you describe, so something is still causing that pressure. If the soles of your shoes flex, that wold circumvent the metatarsal button from doing its job, but pedals with smaller bases have also been known to cause the problem.

I would start by making simple adjustments. Double check cleat set up. If the balls of your feet are centered with the pedal spindle, move the cleats back a couple of mm's. Make small adjustments slowly, with rides in between to test. If you're unsure about making these adjustments, seek assistance from a reputable LBS. There may be a nominal fee, but if it helps cure the problem, it'll be well worth it. 

Continuing, wear cycling specific socks and keep your shoes fastened 'tight enough' to not slip, but no tighter. Also, make a conscious effort to keep your toes relaxed when riding. I've read where some cyclists say they clinch their toes, which IME is more likely to cause the numbness you're experiencing. Lastly, whenever possible, keep cadence high enough that effort on the pedals is relatively light. And there's no law that you _have to _keep pedaling the entire time you ride. Freewheeling _is_ allowed occasionally.  

If none of the above works (or even helps), then you always have the option to try a different pedal system, but IMO there are several options to try first.


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## Dale Brigham (Aug 23, 2002)

*Simple experiment*

BWalton, in my experience (usually during 200+ mile brevets) with "hot foot," the quick cure is to decrease the pressure on my feet by increasing the shoe volume. I do that by simply taking the insoles out of my shoes, putting them in a pocket in my jersey, and riding the rest of the brevet in more comfort. If that works for you, look for thinner insoles or just chop the front section off your shoe insoles.

Give it a try. If it does not work, I'd say go with moving the cleats (I do have my cleats as far back as they can go on all my shoes) and metatarsal "bumps" in your insoles.

Dale


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'm usually not into telling people to spend more on gear, but...

For me, this is the raison d'etre for expensive shoes. Not higher power output, not lower wind resistance. The stiffer sole on a racier shoe distributes cleat pressure much, much better. Basically, the entire sole is the platform. If you like your current pedal system, try a mountain bike racing shoe. Specialized's offerings are pretty well-regarded, although I have no idea whether their racier shoes use the same last as the Sonoma.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'm usually not into telling people to spend more on gear, but...
> 
> For me, this is the raison d'etre for expensive shoes. Not higher power output, not lower wind resistance. The stiffer sole on a racier shoe distributes cleat pressure much, much better. Basically, the entire sole is the platform.


Pretty much what I was going to say based on my experience.

When I started out I got cheap shoes (not saying your are because I don't know them) and for the first 1000 miles or so they were great and I couldn't understand why anyone would get worked up about getting carbon soles ect. Stupid for the money, I thought.

Anyway then I started getting more powerful and going on longer rides and the flex, albeit small, on my first set of shoes was causing all sorts of problems that were cured with much stiffer soles.

Maybe your shoes are fine but it's something to consider if they are an entry level type. They may have limitations which you are past.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*+1*



Hank Stamper said:


> Pretty much what I was going to say based on my experience.
> 
> When I started out I got cheap shoes (not saying your are because I don't know them) and for the first 1000 miles or so they were great and I couldn't understand why anyone would get worked up about getting carbon soles ect. Stupid for the money, I thought.
> 
> ...


^^^ this


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

1 to 2mm behind the balls of my feet on my Sonoma shoes to redistribute the pedal force on my feet and My Sonoma shoe soles flex a lot and more than likely allow my Shimano SPD PD-520 pedals to focus their small platform footprint into the ball of my foot around the metatarsal area. 

Last weekend I loosened my two bottom straps and inserted my Specialized +++ foot bed liners into my Sonoma shoes, which have tall arch supports and metatarsal buttons and rode the same 36 mile route I did two weeks ago. And like two weeks ago, my left foot’s toes (mainly my big toe) fell asleep after 25 miles. The +++ feet bed put more pressure under the front of my front left arch, which explains why my large left toe fell asleep more than my other four toes. On this ride however, I stopped and walked around for a minute until the tingling subsided. I believe walking out the tingling instead of pushing through it like I did two weekends ago helped my left foot recover faster. For whatever reason, my right foot luckily does not have this issue. Maybe because my right foot has a larger arch than my left foot. 

I have large feet, my left is a size 13 and my right is a size 12 ½ and read that road style cleats have a much larger footprint than mountain SPD style cleats and therefore will distribute the pedal force across a larger area on the sole of the shoe. Likewise, a very stiff cycle shoe sole will also distribute the pedal force across a most of the foot as well. So it seems that the combination of a road style pedals/cleats and still soled road shoes would have the best odds of solving my left hot foot problem. Another idea is to move my cleats back decrease my foot leverage a tinny bit as well. Like anything I will need to keep experimenting until I find the right combination that alleviates the problem. 

The idea I am bouncing around is to purchase stiff soled mountain bike shoes and install my SPD cleats 1-2mm behind the balls of my feet and purchase Shimano PD-A520 or Time Atec pedals if I need a slightly larger platform than my PD-520s. The stiffest mountain shoes seem to be Specialized so it is a toss up between their $90.00 mountain sport model with three Velcro straps or the $150.00 mountain comp model with two Velcro straps and a top ratcheting strap. Is the top ratcheting strap worth $60.00 more?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I think your plan is a good one. Just going to a stiffer soled shoe may solve the problem and as you say, experimenting with cleat placement may help as well. Just keep the adjustments small and make them slowly, allowing enough time in between to determination their effects. 

Shoe preferences are as personal as helmets and saddles, but I'll offer that I actually prefer velcro straps to the ratcheted variety, which I can't seem to adjust to NOT pinch the tops of my feet. IME the majority of cyclists don't share my view, so my best advice is to wear cycling specific socks and try both types before deciding.


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## dysfunction (Apr 2, 2010)

I had problems with the non-adjustable ratchet types pinching the tops of my feet too. Eventually I ended up with a pair of specy pros, which have fully adjustable top ratchets. I have now found a pair of shoes that actually FIT my feet (that was hard, my foot is wide in the front, high volume, long arch (thank you superfeet insoles), narrow heel.. pretty much all the contradictory things going on) and if I arch my foot when I'm snugging the straps down there's plenty of room once my feet start to swell, without them being overly loose at the start.


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I pickup a pair of Specialized Mountain Sport shoes today in a size 48 for under $90.00. I will try them out tomorrow and keep my fingers crossed. The soles on these mountain sport shoes feel as stiff as the mountain comps and road sport shoes that I tried to bend in my LBS today. I was leaning towards the comps until I noticed my left outside toe rubbing on the inside toe box. Anyway, I will report on how my left foot feels after my 36 mile ride tomorrow.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Before you spring for new shoes and pedals try loosening the front strap a bit; enough to be able to wiggle your toes and allow for a small sise to side movement.


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

That’s exactly what I did last weekend--loosened both of my bottom Velcro straps on my Sonoma shoes so that my toes and fore-feet could freely wiggle. My left foot's big toe still got numb after 25 miles but not as bad as in the proceeding weekend.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

The next thing you may want to do is improve your pedaling cycle. What I mean is that instead of only putting force on the downward stroke (ie press down on the pedal with one foot then with the other etc) doing what is called a "box cycle", try lifting the pedal with one foot while pressing down with the other (circle cycle). When you lift you should feel a very slight separation of the ball of your foot from the sole of the shoe; the more you do it the more instictive it becomes.
It makes for a more efficient pedaling and works wonders with the hot spots. After you become profficient to this and becomes instictive and still you feel discomfort then its time for stiffer shoes.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

dcgriz said:


> The next thing you may want to do is improve your pedaling cycle. What I mean is that instead of only putting force on the downward stroke (ie press down on the pedal with one foot then with the other etc) doing what is called a "box cycle", try lifting the pedal with one foot while pressing down with the other (circle cycle). When you lift you should feel a very slight separation of the ball of your foot from the sole of the shoe; the more you do it the more instictive it becomes.
> It makes for a more efficient pedaling and works wonders with the hot spots. After you become profficient to this and becomes instictive and still you feel discomfort then its time for stiffer shoes.


While I agree that smoothing the pedal stroke is beneficial to any cyclist, IME what you describe is more theory than practicable. At the cadence ranges most cyclists with experience ride, the time spent on the upstroke is so short that 'benefits' are more perceived than real.

Shoes need to fit, be comfortable (and efficient) and cleats need to be set up/ positioned correctly for a given rider. Pedal stroke is unlikely going to solve what I see as a fit issue.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

PJ352 said:


> While I agree that smoothing the pedal stroke is beneficial to any cyclist, IME what you describe is more theory than practicable. At the cadence ranges most cyclists with experience ride, the time spent on the upstroke is so short that 'benefits' are more perceived than real.
> 
> Shoes need to fit, be comfortable (and efficient) and cleats need to be set up/ positioned correctly for a given rider. Pedal stroke is unlikely going to solve what I see as a fit issue.


My post is drawn from my personal experience with the same situation the OP described. A few years back I bought set of shoes/pedals to use with one of my road bikes for commuting; A Specialized MTB shoe and the Shimano SPD style road/sport pedal. I went with the MTB shoe because I wanted to be able to walk with the shoes on. Anyway, the shoes had a nice fit and I was able to comfortably walk with them. They were also comfortable while riding my 8 mile commuter route. The problems started about 30 miles into the first long ride I took. The toes of my right foot went completely num and the pain was excruciating. I went back to the LBS to check the cleat position, everything was set correctly. The LBS suggested loosening the front strap a bit so as to allow the front end of the foot to move slightly inside the shoe and to avoid the continuous pressing down. I did it and the pain significantly went away. At the same time I started consciously practicing the push down-pull up pedaling stroke. I found that when the foot was pulling up the contact of the ball of the foot to the sole of the shoe got relaxed as pressure was now applied on the arch. My toes never got num anymore and to this day I still use these shoes/pedals when I ride that bike. I suppose it’s the same principle as with your fingers getting num when you continuously rest them on the same spot on the handlebars for a long time without taking the pressure off occasionally. It looks to be the aftermath of somewhat restricting the blood circulation to the extremities.
On a different note, I just got back from an 82 mile run with my new Roubaix SL3 Pro. Beautiful day and I am extremely happy with the bike (and talking about pedals and the like, I put the Look Keo Blade on the cranks and other than the 16lbs release which I find somewhat excessive sort of going all out, they are a sweet setup)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

dcgriz said:


> *My post is drawn from my personal experience with the same situation the OP described*. A few years back I bought set of shoes/pedals to use with one of my road bikes for commuting; A Specialized MTB shoe and the Shimano SPD style road/sport pedal. I went with the MTB shoe because I wanted to be able to walk with the shoes on. Anyway, the shoes had a nice fit and I was able to comfortably walk with them. They were also comfortable while riding my 8 mile commuter route. The problems started about 30 miles into the first long ride I took. The toes of my right foot went completely num and the pain was excruciating. I went back to the LBS to check the cleat position, everything was set correctly. The LBS suggested loosening the front strap a bit so as to allow the front end of the foot to move slightly inside the shoe and to avoid the continuous pressing down. I did it and the pain significantly went away. *At the same time I started consciously practicing the push down-pull up pedaling stroke*. I found that when the foot was pulling up the contact of the ball of the foot to the sole of the shoe got relaxed as pressure was now applied on the arch. My toes never got num anymore and to this day I still use these shoes/pedals when I ride that bike. I suppose it’s the same principle as with your fingers getting num when you continuously rest them on the same spot on the handlebars for a long time without taking the pressure off occasionally. It looks to be the aftermath of somewhat restricting the blood circulation to the extremities.
> On a different note, I just got back from an 82 mile run with my new Roubaix SL3 Pro. Beautiful day and I am extremely happy with the bike (and talking about pedals and the like, I put the Look Keo Blade on the cranks and other than the 16lbs release which I find somewhat excessive sort of going all out, they are a sweet setup)


I don't doubt that your post stems from experiences similar to the OP's, but that doesn't mean your fix works universally. For a myriad of reasons, fit issues don't work that way.

Also, if you notice, you made two changes at the same time - loosening your straps _along with _practicing this so called 'push down/ pull up' pedaling, so you can't _know_ which fixed your problem, but I'm of the mind it was loosening the straps. It's actually a very common fix for foot discomfort/ numbness because of excessive pressure - just as you mentioned. Same goes for hand/ finger discomfort/ numbness.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Nope*



dcgriz said:


> The next thing you may want to do is improve your pedaling cycle. What I mean is that instead of only putting force on the downward stroke (ie press down on the pedal with one foot then with the other etc) doing what is called a "box cycle", try lifting the pedal with one foot while pressing down with the other (circle cycle). When you lift you should feel a very slight separation of the ball of your foot from the sole of the shoe; the more you do it the more instictive it becomes.
> It makes for a more efficient pedaling and works wonders with the hot spots. After you become profficient to this and becomes instictive and still you feel discomfort then its time for stiffer shoes.


Sorry, but this is bunk. Extensive studies have been done on elite riders and NOBODY pulls up. You can concentrate on doing this, but it will not improve your efficiency but actually will do quite the opposite.


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

Well my ride yesterday with my new Specialized Mountain Sport Shoes yielded mixed results. The stiff soles certainly felt like my pedal stroke produced more work but by the 25th mile my right foot’s large toe fell asleep. My Sonoma shoes with flexible soles, which I wore on my last two rides, put my left foot’s big toe to sleep and had zero effect on my right foot. When I got home I took a shower and soaked my feet in semi-hot water for about ten minutes, which cured the numbness in my right toe and a little numbness in my left toe (note; I didn’t know my big left toes was slightly numb until the hot water in the shower got it wet). These new mountain sport shoes look thinner than my Sonoma shoes but do not feel tight around my foot or toes. I do not feel any type of rubbing either when I pedal so I believe they are the right size and width for my size 13 feet. Yesterday it was quite cold and windy and my right toe fell asleep after about a 6 mile down hill run that included a few small uphill climbs. Is it possible only my big toes were chilled numb because both of my feet felt normal (i.e. without the pain I experience in the previous weeks) after I soaked them in warm water?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

In your original post, you described some other stuff happening to your feet - arches aching, and the numbness lasting for a couple of days.

Has that, at least, gone away?


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Kerry Irons said:


> Sorry, but this is bunk. Extensive studies have been done on elite riders and NOBODY pulls up. You can concentrate on doing this, but it will not improve your efficiency but actually will do quite the opposite.


The backstroke of the circle stroke is loosely referred to as “pulling” because it feels like pulling although you don’t. 
This term is not my invention, recognized authorities such as Carmichael also refer to the backstroke as “pulling”, http://powergrips.mrpbike.com/pdf/sep_cycle.pdf
The following link refers to what I’m talking about in a significantly more articulate way than I attempted to do, http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/perfect-pedal-stroke
The following article correlates the significance of the pedaling stroke to the hot foot syndrome, http://www.inlandempirecycling.com/Cycling/bicycle_pedaling.htm
Bottom line is that the so called “hot foot” is caused by concentrated pressure. The cure is re-focusing the pressure; this could be achieved by numerous ways or combinations thereof. My point has been that the expense-free options could be exercised first prior to spending more money on equipment that may or may not solve the problem.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bwalton said:


> Well my ride yesterday with my new Specialized Mountain Sport Shoes yielded mixed results. The stiff soles certainly felt like my pedal stroke produced more work but by the 25th mile my right foot’s large toe fell asleep. My Sonoma shoes with flexible soles, which I wore on my last two rides, put my left foot’s big toe to sleep and had zero effect on my right foot. When I got home I took a shower and soaked my feet in semi-hot water for about ten minutes, which cured the numbness in my right toe and a little numbness in my left toe (note; I didn’t know my big left toes was slightly numb until the hot water in the shower got it wet). These new mountain sport shoes look thinner than my Sonoma shoes but do not feel tight around my foot or toes. I do not feel any type of rubbing either when I pedal so I believe they are the right size and width for my size 13 feet. Yesterday it was quite cold and windy and my right toe fell asleep after about a 6 mile down hill run that included a few small uphill climbs. *Is it possible only my big toes were chilled *numb because both of my feet felt normal (i.e. without the pain I experience in the previous weeks) after I soaked them in warm water?


All in all, judging from your previous posts the new shoes do seem to suite you better. As far as the bolded statement, IME even when I wear wool socks/ covers once the temps drop below about 40 I feel some numbness, so I think the same may hold true for you. Unfortunately, you can't test that theory till the temps rise...


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I do not have any of the aches and lingering pain in my arches and metatarsal areas around the balls of my feet. In fact after I soaked my feet in the tub for 10 minutes, both of my feet felt normal.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'm very happy with my shoes and pedals, but if it's cold and damp when I'm out riding, I still get numb toes. Shoe covers are better than thick socks for this, but as PJ said, you may just have to wait until the weather warms up in order to tell if you've solved the problem.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'm very happy with my shoes and pedals, but if it's cold and damp when I'm out riding, I still get numb toes. Shoe covers are better than thick socks for this, but as PJ said, you may just have to wait until the weather warms up in order to tell if you've solved the problem.


I wear cycling specific wool socks _along with _the toe covers and still experience some numbing when the temps drop to around 35.

I think I'm just anemic.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

if all the off the shelf stuff fails... 

try a Certified Pedorthist.

There is a difference with them an podiatrists. Podiatrists are real doctors, however they end to send stuff to Pedorthists to make orthotics for them.

I went through all this with my snowboard boots. All the off the shelf stuff wasn't working. All the "custom" footbeds that were molded did not work for me either... so I went to one of the best (but expensive) bootfitters in NYC, whom was a Certified Pedorthist.... he made his measurements and such, made a cast of my feet.... ands made me footbeds tailored for the biomechanics for snowboarding.

Luckily I haven't had issues with the SOLE thin sport for my cycling shoes (both road & mtb)... so no need to see a pedorthist for me, at this time.


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

I am curious about the differences between road clip-less pedals and mountain SPD type clip-less pedals. I have read that riders with big feet should use clip-less pedals with large cleats to distribute the pedal load over a large area of you bicycle shoe’s sole. This idea assumes that stiff soled shoes flex and can concentrate cleat-pedal forces through to a focused spot on your foot usually next to the ball of your foot in the metatarsal area. The Specialized mountain sport shoes that I picked up last week have a plastic sole, which might be reinforced with fiberglass. These soles seem to be really stiff when I try to bend them with my hands; however they are not as stiff as the carbon-fiber soled mountain shoes, which cost three times as much. Note; this hand bending test does not mimic the force of a small platform mountain pedal pushing up through the sole.
1)	So my question is do small platform mountain pedals pushup through the stiff plastic composite and carbon-fiber bike soles? Or are these type of soles as stiff as let’s say mounting your cleat to a ¾” x 4” x 14” piece of plywood and using it as your shoe sole?
2)	Are road shoes and cleats really that much harder to walk on than stiff mountain bike shoes?
3)	Are road cleats easier to setup than SPD mount cleats? SPD cleats can be adjusted back and forth, side to side and rotated. Shimano Road cleats look like they can only be moved back and forth along the length of the shoe. Can these types of road cleats be adjusted sided to side and rotated?
4)	Lastly, are Shimano Road pedals as easy to get in and out of as their SPD pedals?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Since IMO/E many of the answers to your thoughts/ questions are subjective, I'll offer my take on this.

A stiff soled shoe is the buffer between your foot and cleat. That being the case, a well designed shoe _should_ (keyword, _should_) spread the pressure of the cleat (no matter its size) through the mid-front of the sole. I know of no controlled study on this topic, so (IMO) logic prevails unless otherwise countered by real life situations. Of course, there are variables like degrees of stiffness and Specialized (to name but one manufacturer) provides a 'stiffness index'' for most of its models, but I don't know how they derive that number.

I think the above indirectly answers your #1 question. My answer to #2 would be that MTB shoes (with recessed cleats) are noticably easier to walk in, but the choice to go that route (or not) IMO should be driven by how much a rider needs to walk. I almost never do.. at least for any distance, so I go with SPD-SL's.

To answer # 3, IME SPD's take the same level of care in set up that SPD-SL's (or similar) do. Both should initially be set up neutrally (meaning, the toe/ heel is in a neutral front/ rear position and ball of foot is on or slightly ahead of the pedal spindle), then adjust according to preference or subsequent fit issues. 

SPD-SL's (with float) can be adjusted toe in/ out, fore/ aft (of pedal spindle) and 2-3 mm's towards or away from BB, so other than degrees of float, I see no difference in set up between SPD and SPD-SL's.

For #4, I'm a firm believer that a pedal system should NOT be chosen based on ease of entry/ exit. Fact is, there's a (short) learning curve no matter the pedal system, so the criteria used for choosing one should be something advantageous to the user in its design, like walk-ability or lack thereof.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I use a road system on one bike, a mountain system on two, and my commuter has platform pedals with toe clips.

Some riders report feeling the cleat pushing through the sole of cheaper, and even fairly expensive MTB shoes. For my MTB systems, I have an old pair of Sidis with a plastic (probably reinforced with fiber glass) sole, and have never noticed any cleat pressure. However, it's true that it's usually a smaller contact area, so I'm not going to contradict riders who say they can feel it. I think it would be a particular problem with a cheaper, softer shoe, like those marketed for casual or commute use. It would be a little simplistic to say that a more flexible shoe is also more vulnerable to cleat pressure, but I doubt that those shoes are reinforced enough to prevent cleat pressure on a longer ride.

Stiff mountain shoes are awkward to walk in on flat surfaces, or down pretty much anything. They're brilliant for running up hill, though.  The awkwardness of a road shoe depends somewhat on the pedal system you use. I use Speedplays, so the cleat sticks out from the bottom of the shoe pretty far, and the surface that can come into contact with the ground is all metal. It's kind of like a reverse high heel, and very slippery. I have a set of caps that can go over the cleat to protect it from getting debris in the mechanism and provide a little traction. They help, but it's definitely still a lot worse than walking around in MTB shoes. I have some reasons I like the Speedplays for long rides, or I'd probably just throw a set of Time ATACs (my favorite MTB system) on my road bike, and own one pair of shoes.

The cleat setup will vary from brand to brand. Speedplays use a different bolt pattern from everyone else, so there are shims and adapters involved. I think that shims, at least, are relatively common on road systems because not all shoes have the same amount of curvature on the bottom and the threaded things that receive the bolts are far enough apart for it to matter. Look at the bottom of most road shoes and you'll see that they typically just have a fore/aft adjustment, but road pedal systems vary a lot as to their adjustability. So it's hard to draw a general conclusion, beyond that the cleat and pedal are typically built to facilitate some tuning. Sometimes the pedal is tunable instead of the cleat for certain issues; from PJ's post it sounds like that's the case here.

I'd say for me the bottom line is that since MTB racing/training level shoes within a brand often have the same construction as road racing/training shoes, with the exception of a lugged sole being added, it doesn't make sense to worry too much about the stiffness of one class of shoes vs. the other. Think in terms of specific shoes - does this one fit me, do reviewers like it or find durability, stiffness or other problems? If there's a specific pedal system you want to be on for some reason, get the shoe that will accept its cleat. If you want a more user-friendly shoe, go with a MTB setup. I don't walk much off the bike in my cycling shoes either, but it would be nice not to mess around with those stupid caps or risk falling on my butt if I want to duck into a coffee shop, or on the way in and out of my house with my bike.


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

About two years ago I started commuting to work (six miles each way) using Shimano PD-M520 pedals. Before that point, I was weekend mountain bike worrier and typically logged in about 30 miles max. each weekend with good weather. For about 12 years straight I used PD-M520 pedals on my mountain bikes without any issues. Fast forward to about 20 months ago and my left inside knee started to hurt after I finished a commute. I read many books on bike fit and cleat set-up and made many adjustments, which never solved my knee’s tendinitis. I also read a lot of material about loosening up and strengthening my muscles in my legs and back to solve my knee problem as well. Nothing seem to work so I finally I when to my LBS and was fitted to my commuter bike by a Certified Specialized BG FIT Technician. He setup my bike on a trainer and watched my knee track while pedaling. After about $150.00 for the service, new shoes, BG +++ insole inserts and vagus shims I was off and riding. My left knee hurt a lot worse after the fitting so I eliminated one of the new items one by until I was back to my old setup with the new shoes. I discovered that my left foot toes out so I opened up the slots in my shoes with a file and rotated the cleat inward, which helped a lot more than the fitting did. This season, my knee has been pain free so far but I don’t think I solved the underlying problem, which may be my cleat setup or possibly a pedal system with more than 4 degrees of float. Are there any tricks that will pinpoint the position of my cleat(s) in the center of my foot’s lateral rotation other than eye balling it? Should I try a Time ATAC pedal system that is more forgiving with side-to-side and rotational float?


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Actually, knee pain and angular float are a lot of how I ended up on Speedplays. If you don't need any help with the stability of your knees, they give your body the freedom to do whatever it's going to do. I toe out very significantly, so they were a big improvement for me over the cheap pedals I started with. I've never owned SPDs, but I can tell you that, for me, the float on a pair of Time ATACs is not quite enough for extended road rides. I think that it's less of a problem off-road because of how much more dynamic mountain biking is. Time ATACs also have a relatively wide tread, which may or may not matter to your knees - some people report problems with it, and some don't care. I actually had the opposite experience to you with the fitter and BG insoles and shims. So, go figure. I don't think my guy was certified by anyone, but I asked a more hard-core cycling acquaintance, and he asked the guys he rides with; to me, that's more informative than a piece of paper.

I don't think lateral float is useful at all. I think it's an artifact of how Time ATACs are designed. I understand that Shimano has different types of cleats offering different amounts of float. So if I were trying to improve the float on a Shimano system, I'd start with the cleat that offered the most freedom. If that didn't work, I'd look into another system. If you're happy with your shoes, there are some other two-bolt systems you might try. I haven't used Speedplay Frogs or Bebops, but those are both systems that are supposedly good about angular freedom.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I understand that Shimano has different types of cleats offering different amounts of float.


Since I'm unfamiliar with them I can't comment on Shimano's MTB systems, but their road SPD-SL's only offer fixed or 6 degree float cleats.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

SPD only has 1 cleat.


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## bwalton (Mar 18, 2010)

Shimano SPD mountain pedals have 4 degrees of float only. The cleats for these pedals either come in two versions 1) side release (black) or 2) multi release (silver).

From what I read, Time ATAC mountain pedals have 5 degrees of float with 2mm of side-to-side lateral freedom. Swapping cleats changes the release angle not the float.

Crank Brother’s Egg Beater type pedals have 6 degrees of float. Like the Time pedals swapping the cleats on your shoes changes the release angle. My LBS let test a pair of Candy Pedals last year and I found them very difficult to get out of compared to my Shimano SPD pedals. I tested them for one week and felt comfortable having my feet locked down on the pedals, which almost caused me to crash a number of times when coming to a stop.

Shimano road SL pedals have either 6 degree of float when paired with the yellow cleats or zero float when paired with the red cleats.

Speed-Way and Frogs I believe have 15 degrees of float and do not have a spring cleat retention system like the other pedal systems have above. Triathlete’s seem to like these pedals the best.


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