# Reach to bars too long.



## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Hey guys!

I've been reading these forums for a long time, but always managed to never need to post due to the questions other people asked or answers other people gave, so thanks for the help over the years.

Anyway, todays issue.

When i bought this bike the handlebars were angled downwards and hoods were attached before the drop and angled upwards (like the bike pictured below)









I've ridden it for a few thousand K's and got used to it.
The other day i used a bike fit app and realised how un-level the bar-hood situation was so i leveled them out and now my reach has become ridiculous.

Is this something i can remedy by moving my saddle forward a smidge, getting a shorter stem (mine is 100mm) and possibly shorter bars (are they even a thing?)

My bars are currently 130mm to the drops. 









I've read that having a short stem will affect handling, but if my previous set up was a certain distance, having a short stem and the hoods in this position should feel the same as what i was used to, right?

Thanks!


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Don't move the seat, shorter stem or new bars with shorter reach!
I run a real short stem due to I am old on a young mans bike.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Why do you think your reach to the bars is too long?

Here's a way to determine if your reach to the bars is too long: 

From the photo of the rider in the photo, notice where the hands rest-nice and fully on the brake hoods. Typical rider will spend 70% of their time with their hands in this position. If you find that during a ride you're grasping the bars shy of the photo illustration then yes, your reach is too long. I've seen people who spend a lot of time with their hands farther up the bars/ away from the hoods-dead giveaway.

From the photo, it looks like the brake levers are too low on the bars. That will make the reach seem excessive. Try changing their position, starting with the tips of the levers flush with the bottom of the bars. And start with the bottom of the bars parallel to the ground. Leave the bar position alone, but move the levers up the bars until something clicks. I think your problem lies with the shape of the brake hoods and the transition from the bars to the levers. A change in brake lever position will cure that.

It will help to strip off the handlebar tape and leave it off until you're satisfied with the fit, or just kludge it in place with electrical tape until you're done; I don't care if it takes SEVERAL rides to iron out your position.


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Thanks for the tips.

I just feel very heavy on my hands and like my pelvis is tilted too far forward to try to reach them.

Are you suggesting to rotate my bars clockwise as pictured to get the bottom of the drops level with the ground? Then move my hoods further up the bars, sort of how it looks in the first picture?

I think i will definitely leave the bar tape off for a while until I get this sorted so i can play around with it a little bit.

Do you guys think my saddle height and knee angle looks alright?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

move your seat back.

try


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Your bars to hoods looks level. If you move your brakes up the bars, you will have a transistion like the bike in the first picture, where the flat part is the bars and the hoods sit rising from your thumb first finger split.
Just depends on your preference.
You do look like your reaching uncomfortably.
I like the flat transition, so I would go with the setup you have and either get shorter reach bars or shorter stem.
If you can ride the otherway, all you need to do is move it and see if you like it. I bet you will not.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Move the shifters back up higher on the bars - they are too low, I agree with Peter P. Ride it for a couple weeks and see how it feels. Don't rotate the bars, they look fine as is, rotating will make the drops point down too much I think.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

duriel said:


> I run a real short stem due to I am old on a young mans bike.


Hehe, same here


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## nova_rider (Sep 23, 2005)

Try resting a 12" ruler against the bottom tube of the bar so it extends out towards the front, then adjust the levers so the bottom tip just touches the ruler. This is a good baseline position that ensures one can still reach the levers while in the drops and not put the wrist in an awkward angle when riding on the hood. Adjust by rotating the bar instead of moving the levers.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

On The Beast, the levers sit too high on the bars or the levers are just too high because the bars are rotated so the ends point down.

Start with the bottom of the bars parallel to the ground and the tips of the levers as nova_rider explains.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm assuming your bike is the S-Works, not the BeastMode. In either case, I think its a problem of bar shape, not necessarily size. That looks like an SL2, maybe SL3 S-Works and Specialized sold a lot of those bikes with their Ergo bend bars which were sort of a mid-way point between a traditional bend and the current style of compact bend bars. A friend of mine had picked up an older Allez for a second bike and he had the same bars and tried to do exactly the same thing as your trying to do because he didn't want to buy new bars... he never had much luck. Here's an image showing the different shapes.










Your bars are more like the middle ones... and I'd say that most current compact bars currently even have the top reach portion straight out, as opposed to angling down. Personally, I just think you're not keen on the shape of the bars you have.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

TricrossRich said:


> I'm assuming your bike is the S-Works, ...I just think you're not keen on the shape of the bars you have.


I will agree that the bars could be a contributing factor. I was hesitant to offer that as a cause however, because I am not inclined to blame the equipment first.

Now that someone else has said it, I'll come out of the closet!


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Calam...it would be a mistake to move your saddle to adjust reach (if it's set relatively well). Stem length and/or bar reach would be the way to go for me. Changing a stem to a 90 isn't a big deal and the easiest/least work to swap. You may or may not notice any change in handling. 

If you have reservations about a shorter stem then look for a bar with a touch shorter reach. Search compact bars...Looks like you are riding the 3T Ergosum bar which has a reach of 89mm and a drop of 128mm. The 3T Ergonova has a reach of 77mm for example. FSA, Easton and Deda all have compact bars with reaches right around 77-80mm IIRC.


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## Lallement (Mar 1, 2014)

I recently changed my stem for a slightly shorter one and have been very happy with the resulting difference in reach and feel.


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## Corey213 (Jan 11, 2013)

Calam said:


> Thanks for the tips.
> 
> I just feel very heavy on my hands and like my pelvis is tilted too far forward to try to reach them.
> 
> ...


Hey Calam, you may want to look into a shallow flare bar. Bontrager has some that the reach is shorter which I think is exactly what you are looking for.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...lebars/bontrager-elite-isozone-vr-sf/p/14838/

I've used them and talked to some others and they are much more comfortable.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Age has nothing to do with it. Flexibility does.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

What brand and series of components do you have? Older Shimano stuff you could adjust reach to levers with shims, newer Shimano stuff there is a reach adjustment screw you can use to bring the levers in a bit. Depending on the version you have to be careful, the plastic version of the screw is a little brittle (replaced mine with the metal ones).

This isn't say the other things you are considering to adjust might not be better, but if you're just talking about the levers feeling a little too far away, look into this.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

If it were me, I'd just put the whole set up back to the way you liked it. The position of the hoods on the bars should be based on overall comfort, not some "fit app" or aesthetics.

And like others said, don't move your saddle to adjust reach, you adjust it for position over the pedals. That's a basic rule of bike fit. If your app tells you to move the saddle to adjust reach - or doesn't tell you not to - it's a poor app.


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

woodys737 said:


> Calam...it would be a mistake to move your saddle to adjust reach (if it's set relatively well). Stem length and/or bar reach would be the way to go for me. Changing a stem to a 90 isn't a big deal and the easiest/least work to swap. You may or may not notice any change in handling.
> 
> If you have reservations about a shorter stem then look for a bar with a touch shorter reach. Search compact bars...Looks like you are riding the 3T Ergosum bar which has a reach of 89mm and a drop of 128mm. The 3T Ergonova has a reach of 77mm for example. FSA, Easton and Deda all have compact bars with reaches right around 77-80mm IIRC.


Wow you're good! Yes it's the 3T ergosum bar. I have no idea how you could know that just from looking at it!

For others who have asked it is an SL4 and running 10 speed dura ace di2. I think it's 7970.


I think I'll drop down to a 90mm stem and get some compact bars. It'll result in approx 3cm shorter reach but that's ok as the current set up has my weight about 5-6cm In front of the contact point of my tyre.

Also from my years of browsing I hate seeing when so many good ideas are out forward and the op never reports back on their solution haha.

Pics to follow when I get my gear


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Forgot to mention Specialized since you are riding a Specialized. They have some bars with 75mm reach and alloy for under $50 if you are trying to keep cost down. Check them out HERE.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

You are *way* stretched out. Here are my thoughts:

-Zipp service course 70 handlebar. 70 reach. Inexpenisve. 
-Shorter stem. How much shorter? A lot. None of us can tell you that without seeing you on it. 
-Point that stem to the sky. My guess is you never ever use your drops, based on handlebar alignment and how low you are in the hoods. Get your hoods in a place where it feels ride-all-day comfortable. Go to the drops when you want to get after it. Embrace being a middle aged inflexible white guy, or start going to yoga.
-I'm guessing your saddle is a bit high, but it's only a guess, I'd need to see you at point of terminal extension to know for sure. 
-Your bike won't look as cool. But the only time you care about that is when it's in your garage. 

Honestly, it really seems like you need to get a fit from a fitter, not an app. Someone who can set your saddle where it needs to be. Someone who can try different length/rise stems for you. If you plan on riding with any sort of regularity, it would probably be well worth the money. 

*full disclosure, I fit bikes


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Age has nothing to do with it. Flexibility does.


True.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Camilo said:


> If it were me, *I'd just put the whole set up back to the way you liked it. The position of the hoods on the bars should be based on overall comfort, not some "fit app" or aesthetics.*
> 
> And like others said, don't move your saddle to adjust reach, you adjust it for position over the pedals. That's a basic rule of bike fit. If your app tells you to move the saddle to adjust reach - or doesn't tell you not to - it's a poor app.



The part in bold is the answer to this thread.

Regarding not moving the saddle to adjust reach. That's generally true and the good default answer however it not a hard and fast 'rule'. If a rider moves the bars for a more aggressive position they likely would want to move the seat forward a little bit accordingly. 
And I don't mean an arbitrary move of the bars but because the rider became more flexible, or changed from riding centuries to riding crits, or whatever logical reason (as opposed to for aesthetics or whatever arbitrary reason as seem the case in this thread).

The proof (for lack of a better word) of this is the general fact that frames with really short head tubes tend to come with 75ish seat angles and high head tube frames will be 73ish. If we assume frame designers know what they're doing this illustrates that a more aggressive position calls for a more forward seat. A more extreme example is to compare the seat tube angle of a TT bike to a beach cruiser.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Bars with shorter reach or a shorter stem is likely the answer


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> The proof (for lack of a better word) of this is the general fact that frames with really short head tubes tend to come with 75ish seat angles and high head tube frames will be 73ish. If we assume frame designers know what they're doing this illustrates that a more aggressive position calls for a more forward seat. A more extreme example is to compare the seat tube angle of a TT bike to a beach cruiser.


The seat tube angle on a racing bike is 75 cause you can make the chain stays shorter for quicker handling. Most run setback seatposts with racing bikes. Don't even go into TT bikes, they are setup for minimum aero drag and riding straight courses and handle like crappo.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

masont said:


> You are *way* stretched out. Here are my thoughts:
> 
> -Zipp service course 70 handlebar. 70 reach. Inexpenisve.
> -Shorter stem. How much shorter? A lot. None of us can tell you that without seeing you on it.
> ...


Point the stem at the sky is a bit extreme. Way too stretched out is a bit extreme. Embrace being middle aged and inflexible? Really?


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Lots of good advice above.

To me, the most important thing about this thread is that it neatly demonstrates that fixing too long a reach is a pain. When you buy a bike effective top tube and reach are the most importantly factors, make sure you get those right. Also, shorter is better than longer if you're between sizes.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Hiro11 said:


> Lots of good advice above.
> 
> To me, the most important thing about this thread is that it neatly demonstrates that fixing too long a reach is a pain. When you buy a bike effective top tube and reach are the most importantly factors, make sure you get those right. Also, shorter is better than longer if you're between sizes.


I would have agreed if you substituted stack for effective top tube. Short stack for someone with limited flexibility get's ugly trying to fit if aesthetics matter at all.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)




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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Thanks for all the good advice!

I almost got the zipp 70, but ended up ordering the ritchey evomax 
wiggle.com.au | Ritchey WCS Evo Max Road Handlebar | Road Handlebars

I also got an 80mm stem. Just waiting for them to show up in the mail and get testing.

last time i rode regularly on this bike I was almost 15kg lighter. I think it has a bit to do with how uncomfortable it is now.

The reason I used the bike fit app and also changed my bars is because I hadn't ridden for ages and then started getting some elbow pain from having my arms locked straight. I feel like if i got a bike fit now they would size me up for middle aged fat white guy...which isnt what i want my bike to be ...just give me 2 months and ill be back closer to 80.

My hoods used to be further up the bars and my hands would get irritated but not necessarily sore by the hoods position. 

I once rode it 160km solo under 6 hours and also won my local division club championship crit on it. They were both just over a year ago.

I'm hoping that by shortening the reach I will be able to have my hoods on the right part of my bars, or, that I will be very very comfortable with them a bit higher again.

I very rarely would use the drops, only when sprinting. When it was my turn on the front I used the sphinx position

I was hoping to get back into it now that I'm coping with work a bit better and have some more time, so Its a bit tricky trying to set it up right so that its comfortable now, and also suits me when im race fit again.

Im 177cm (5'9?) and weigh about 79kg in peak condition

P.S. heres a photo of me doing a tri








PPS i ate a whole bag of midnight taco flavoured doritos while posting this....dont bother with the flavour -_-


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> Point the stem at the sky is a bit extreme. Way too stretched out is a bit extreme. Embrace being middle aged and inflexible? Really?


Moving his stem to the positive and his position up is a bit extreme? 
Maybe we have different definitions of "way" but any fitter will tell you yes, he is too stretched out. 
He either needs to get more flexible or fit his bike to his current state of flexibility. You have some sort of problem with that?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

masont said:


> Moving his stem to the positive and his position up is a bit extreme?
> Maybe we have different definitions of "way" but any fitter will tell you yes, he is too stretched out.
> He either needs to get more flexible or fit his bike to his current state of flexibility. You have some sort of problem with that?


No. Just you and your assessment. I think it's way off is all.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I'd like to see him get in the drops. I don't get bikers that ride all day long on the tops, never change hand positions. My hands would be killing me if I only had one riding position.
If he is on the road to recovery/riding, I would work with the bike. If that is as low as he can go from here on out.... I think he needs a much smaller endurance bike.


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Heres a picture of in the drops.

what do you think?


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

duriel said:


> I'd like to see him get in the drops. I don't get bikers that ride all day long on the tops, never change hand positions. My hands would be killing me if I only had one riding position.
> If he is on the road to recovery/riding, I would work with the bike. If that is as low as he can go from here on out.... I think he needs a much smaller endurance bike.


Here's a pic in the drops. What do you think?


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Calam said:


> View attachment 318839
> 
> 
> Heres a picture of in the drops.
> ...


Seems a bit hunched over compared to this pro.


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Who's that guy?

Lol, kidding.

Thanks! I see what you mean.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

_Yea , u should look more like sagan, then you'd be fast however you rode._


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Just looking up Sagans impressie bike and took particular notice of his set up.

These three all seem to differ significatly.

Im also wondering whats wrong with my struture or special with his that lets a 182cm rider use a 56cm frame with 140mm stem.

Im 177 but struggling to look like that on a 54cm frame with a 100mm stem. My drop from saddle to bars also isnt as large as his.

anyway, very fitting for the handlebar position of this thread, check out these pics of his bikes.

Does it just come down to variation in his bars? (they all have the drop section horizontal and parrallel to the ground).

His saddle is very far forward. Doesnt it have to be a certain distance behind the bottom bracket? Does this also help with the reach?


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Calam said:


> His saddle is very far forward. Doesnt it have to be a certain distance behind the bottom bracket?


Try this video on that issue.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Calam said:


> Just looking up Sagans impressie bike and took particular notice of his set up.
> 
> These three all seem to differ significatly.
> 
> ...


A couple of things...

1. Rider height is just one aspect... more importantly is his build in terms of leg length, arm length and torso. Those individual aspects determine fit more than just overall height.

2. Are you sure he's on a 56 frame? Most pro riders use a frame 1 or even 2 sizes smaller to save weight and be as aero as possible. They're paid to be fast, not comfortable.

3. You're looking at two different bike models with 2 different handlebar setups... the first 2 bikes are Tarmacs w/ classic bend bars. The 3rd bike is a Venge ViAS with a shallow bend bar. The frame geo of the ViAS is pretty different in terms of fit. They have an app on the website, or used to at least, that has you put in a bunch of measurements from your current bike and it spits out the recommended frame size, stem, bars, etc. I know that when I did it, it spit out something radically different from my current set up to get my contact points in the same position.

4. His saddle looks normal to me, maybe a little forward on the rails, but he's using seat posts with pretty significant setback and even with the saddle forward he's not any more forward than someone who might choose a zero setback seat post. I don't think there are any rules regard saddle setback on road bikes for the pro. I know there are rules for the TT bikes because most of them would prefer to be as far forward as possible, but on the road bikes, I don't think that concern is too important because the need to be rideable in many situations i.e. climbing.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

You have a lot to learn but you are definitely asking the right questions and noticing some things. I can smell the tinder burning.

On the topic of "saddle being forward" what you need to understand is that *it's all relative*. Relative to the bike geometry, chain stay length, and a host of other factors. Don't forget about physiological factors as well...these guys can probably lick their arsehole if they tried hard enough. When I followed a strict program of muscle activation and stretching it was so much easier to get long and low than now.


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## ra21benj (Sep 29, 2015)

I’m 5’9” with 30 inch inseam. Saddle height is 69 cm from center of bottom bracket to top of saddle.Saddle is Fizik Arione VS set as far forward as it will go to stop pain behind knee.Frame is endurance geometry with horizontal top tube of 54.5 cm and seat tube is 52.5 cm.I’m using a 100 mm stem with no spacers and -17 degree bend.


My first bars were 100 mm reach compact bars. I rode a 100 mile ride mostly on the brake hoods and because my elbows were stretched out, all the front impacts went to my shoulders causing soreness.Got a 78 mm reach compact drop bars and set it so the ramps angle down (like above pic of Sagan’s bars with Vision stem) to shorten the reach a little and because it’s a comfortable place to put my hands.Bike is a lot more comfortable on the brake hoods now because my elbows can bend to absorb impacts.Full-on sprints on the hooks/drops don’t feel as good as before, but overall the bike is more comfortable not being stretched out.Trial and error for me until I found an overall comfortable set-up.


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## masont (Feb 6, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> No. Just you and your assessment. I think it's way off is all.


Ha. Thanks for explaining why and being helpful!


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Still wating on my stem, but I very much like my new bars! how come a flared drop isnt a common thing? I think its fantastic!

What do you guys think of this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69OzE3KB2IY

sems like a lot of pros are pushing their saddles very far forward as part of a way to handle big reach and drop. Some of their seat postswere straight and had no setback.

Seats angled down slightly. I used to love my seat like that but got told off from other riders


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## Calam (Apr 13, 2017)

Hey guys!

I put my bars on this morning, theyre really nice! only 40g heavier than my carbon ones, so big deal.

Still havn't got my stem yet. This is still with the 100mm stem. What do you think?

https://youtu.be/foKdAm5hQ7g 
https://youtu.be/W6GuO_HFM8U 
https://youtu.be/iSuZQ6GvoJ4

Old







New







I dropped my seat down 25mm after this picture was taken...possibly even could do with a bit more?


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