# Garmin vindicated from the mounths of LA and JB



## Maximus_XXIV (Nov 10, 2008)

Both LA and JB said that GH in yellow was good for Astana. If something is good for Astana, it is bad for their competition. Garmin proved they were contending for the podium today in Wiggins. 

Therefore, GH in yellow would be bad for Garmin and they chased. Columbia does not work and Astana burns riders in the wind.

Forget the gamesmanship of "I have no idea why they would chase?" Simple tactics to creates rifts but I am sure they are ticked that Columbia did no work today.

I personally would have loved to see GH in yellow but that is bike racin.

Done deal


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## bruzer (Apr 7, 2008)

Not one Versus guy was unbiased enough to propose this IS A RACE and other teams are not obligated to let riders on other teams win. All Bobke was talking about was the revenge that Columbia would get. Maybe it was Garmin's revenge. How soon they forgot the "junior riders" comment? 

I like GH, but he should be ashamed of his "offended" comment to the press. Other teams do not owe a race victory to George.


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## CaliBuddha (Jan 3, 2007)

I feel the same way. Why would someone just LET him take a win? Doesnt make sense to me... Maybe Im just a jerk


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

bruzer said:


> Not one Versus guy was unbiased enough to propose this IS A RACE and other teams are not obligated to let riders on other teams win. All Bobke was talking about was the revenge that Columbia would get. Maybe it was Garmin's revenge. How soon they forgot the "junior riders" comment?
> 
> I like GH, but he should be ashamed of his "offended" comment to the press. Other teams do not owe a race victory to George.


Nobody among the column writers seems to get that it was in Garmin's interest to keep Columbia out of yellow. Carmichael did had a column over at Bicycling that chalked it up to 'hey, it's bike racing and them's the breaks,' but there's been a lot of unfair fingerpointing at Garmin. Just because Columbia acts like thugs doesn't mean Garmin is acting in response to their behavior.

I hope at the end of the race Wiggo is on the podium and Matty White or JV sticks the knife in regarding strategy for the GC of a three week race vs. treating the race as a series of 1 day races.

In two days Columbia managed to not get the yellow, lose the white and pretty much concede the green jersey. They've really come across as bullies/poor sports since the Giro and my opinion of the team, especially Cav and Stapleton, has gone down.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Hincapie had his chance today to retain his podium shot. Instead, dropped down to 13th. Way to go. I think more people would support George if he had the killer instinct needed to win. Instead it's the same old adapted story from Paris-Roubaix.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Exactly. As much as many people would have like to see him in yellow, it's not Garmin's job to look after GH. It's their job to race the Tour and execute their strategy. And their strategy was (and is) to burn out Astana as much as they can sot that Wiggo can either podium or win the Tour.


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

garmin tactic obviously paid off with only kloden upfront left at the start of the climb...


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## gh1 (Jun 7, 2008)

obviously garmin knew that wiggins was on form and wanted to keep it close. obviously he is aiming for the podium this year and did great yesterday considering. he may be a complete demon in the TT coming up.


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## tron (Jul 18, 2004)

I dont know why George is being such a baby about it. He has already worn the yellow jersey in the past so its not like it was a once in a lifetime chance. Plus, he was going to lose it the next day anyway. I also heard/read that he was disappointed by his team. Well cavendish ruined his green jersey chances to try to get him in yellow. Seems stupid to risk the green jersey just to get yellow for one day.


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## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

*Thuggish?*



jorgy said:


> Nobody among the column writers seems to get that it was in Garmin's interest to keep Columbia out of yellow. Carmichael did had a column over at Bicycling that chalked it up to 'hey, it's bike racing and them's the breaks,' but there's been a lot of unfair fingerpointing at Garmin. Just because Columbia acts like thugs doesn't mean Garmin is acting in response to their behavior.


It seems to me that Garmin's GC contenders would have benefited no less from Columbia controlling Sunday's stage than Astana's. How did Twiggo benefit from having to pull in the last 15k of Saturday's stage to keep a non-GC threat out of yellow?

I wouldn't call Columbia's behavior as thuggish but hey, call their dominance on the flat stages what you want. How would you characterize the actions of a guy who gets a nice contract, has his racing schedule changed three times to accommodate the only race of the year where he isn't wearing the sponsors uniform. Who then leaves said team to join another and decides he should loose 20lbs and train professionally...

Cav wrote in his book that Garmin didn't race to win but rather to screw other teams over. It looks to me that he hit it right on the head.

And while this is a bike race and no official rules were broken, all sports have unwritten standards for behavior among the participants. There is no rule that you have to point at stuff in the road to the guys behind you but see how long you last if you don't.

Best of luck to Twiggo and VdV. They are good guys who deserve their success. I am less of a fan of the team than I was before Saturday though.

G


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

moabbiker said:


> Hincapie had his chance today to retain his podium shot. Instead, dropped down to 13th. Way to go. I think more people would support George if he had the killer instinct needed to win. Instead it's the same old adapted story from Paris-Roubaix.


It's not that he's lacking 'killer instinct' to stay on the podium, it's the fact that he doesn't have the required power/weight ratio at this point in the race to ride up front in the mountains with the leaders.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

I think it's clear that Garmin did this out of spite. When else have they worked on the front during the final 2k? Farrar wasn't even there. What goes around comes around. Columbia may have started it, but Garmin picked a bad rider to do this to from a politics standpoint.

I like the comment above that said GH had his chance to stay on the podium yesterday but didn't have the killer instinct to do so. Pretty funny.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> Cav wrote in his book that Garmin didn't race to win but rather to screw other teams over. It looks to me that he hit it right on the head.


omg. that's worth a good head thumping right there.

I have to say, I didn't understand Garmin's play, but it's not my job to. I would like to have seen George in yellow, etc., etc., but I have to -- well, want to -- believe that there were positive reasons to keep Nocentini in yellow. Heck, it could be as simple as trying to ensure that Contador or someone from Astana attacked, to flush them out. I don't know.

why all the hating, though, about Vaughters? I always kind of liked the guy. I've met him, too; he seems cool.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

huez said:


> I think it's clear that Garmin did this out of spite.


Not clear to me. I think it was smart tactics to force Astana to control the race on Stage 15 instead of Columbia. Bruyneel knows it. Armstrong knows it.

Garmin has GC aspirations. Columbia is after stage wins. Totally different ways of racing.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

From garmins perspective, they wanted to keep wiggo close. Last I checked, GH aint on garmin. And wiggo or vdv on podium is more of a priority than "lending" the yellow jersey to a competitor. 
When all's said and done,GH and Lance will remain friends.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*whiner*

Going to the front of a bike race and taking hard pulls is very hard work. It tires you out and potentially reduces your performance the next day. With all those factors and what's at stake, how could anyone think it is all about merely keeping one guy out of yellow for one day? That's ridiculous.


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## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

*Garmin's own riders reported...*



bill said:


> omg. that's worth a good head thumping right there.
> 
> I have to say, I didn't understand Garmin's play, but it's not my job to. I would like to have seen George in yellow, etc., etc., but I have to -- well, want to -- believe that there were positive reasons to keep Nocentini in yellow. Heck, it could be as simple as trying to ensure that Contador or someone from Astana attacked, to flush them out. I don't know.
> 
> why all the hating, though, about Vaughters? I always kind of liked the guy. I've met him, too; he seems cool.


that the order from the team car was to keep GH out of yellow.

No hate from me. I admire how Vaughters built a team from scratch that is dedicated to clean racing and developing young talent. I just thought this was a brain-dead tactic that made them and their sponsor look bad.

I met Matt White at the Giro in '04 and he couldn't have been nicer. He even got us a coffee out of the team bus. They are a good bunch of guys that maybe got caught up in the moment a bit.

-G


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

They keep trying to sell that line of bullhockey, but nobody outside the few remaining Garmin faithful are buying it. Even the Garmin riders were questioning the move. Lying about it just made White and Vaughters bigger tools. At least man up and take ownership of what you did- we spike Columbia's guns out of spite- they mocked us, beat us soundly at every turn and made us look stupid at the Giro. This was our only chance for payback and we took it.

And if Wiggins didn't ride great, Garmin would have had nobody in the move as CVV got dropped early. Which will make Wiggins rumored jump to the new Sky team even funnier.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

goloso said:


> that the order from the team car was to keep GH out of yellow.
> 
> No hate from me. I admire how Vaughters built a team from scratch that is dedicated to clean racing and developing young talent. I just thought this was a brain-dead tactic that made them and their sponsor look bad.
> 
> ...



really, where did you hear that? I believe it. Garmin had no such reasons when they were asked why they worked at the front during the last 1K. They said they didn't want to get caught in a split? Pathetic answer. Zabriskie told Lance on twitter that "he was just a pawn", kinda saying don't be mad at me.

Besides, AG2r still had the jersey. They didn't pass it to Astana by gassing it at the end.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

If Astana had given George the jersey by two minutes, which they say was the plan, does anyone but me think that there just was a chance he could have kept it over the rest day?I'm still trying to think this through. Either way, Garmin's hopes are not for the win but for a podium or maybe a top 5. Would having Columbia keep the jersey for another couple of days have hurt that possibility?


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

bill said:


> If Astana had given George the jersey by two minutes, which they say was the plan, does anyone but me think that there just was a chance he could have kept it over the rest day?I'm still trying to think this through. Either way, Garmin's hopes are not for the win but for a podium or maybe a top 5. Would having Columbia keep the jersey for another couple of days have hurt that possibility?



absolutely no and no.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> They keep trying to sell that line of bullhockey, but nobody outside the few remaining Garmin faithful are buying it. Even the Garmin riders were questioning the move. Lying about it just made White and Vaughters bigger tools. At least man up and take ownership of what you did- we spike Columbia's guns out of spite- they mocked us, beat us soundly at every turn and made us look stupid at the Giro. This was our only chance for payback and we took it.
> 
> And if Wiggins didn't ride great, Garmin would have had nobody in the move as CVV got dropped early. Which will make Wiggins rumored jump to the new Sky team even funnier.


Can I coin the phrase - vaughterhater?

Sounds like a car part or something.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

jorgy said:


> Nobody among the column writers seems to get that it was in Garmin's interest to keep Columbia out of yellow. Carmichael did had a column over at Bicycling that chalked it up to 'hey, it's bike racing and them's the breaks,' but there's been a lot of unfair fingerpointing at Garmin. Just because Columbia acts like thugs doesn't mean Garmin is acting in response to their behavior.
> 
> I hope at the end of the race Wiggo is on the podium and Matty White or JV sticks the knife in regarding strategy for the GC of a three week race vs. treating the race as a series of 1 day races.
> 
> In two days Columbia managed to not get the yellow, lose the white and pretty much concede the green jersey. They've really come across as bullies/poor sports since the Giro and my opinion of the team, especially Cav and Stapleton, has gone down.


Payback is a ***** for cav/george columbia/htc for running their mouths about Garmin on Stage 3

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=178604


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> They keep trying to sell that line of bullhockey, but nobody outside the few remaining Garmin faithful are buying it. Even the Garmin riders were questioning the move. Lying about it just made White and Vaughters bigger tools. At least man up and take ownership of what you did- we spike Columbia's guns out of spite- they mocked us, beat us soundly at every turn and made us look stupid at the Giro. This was our only chance for payback and we took it.
> 
> And if Wiggins didn't ride great, Garmin would have had nobody in the move as CVV got dropped early. Which will make Wiggins rumored jump to the new Sky team even funnier.


You're sounding just flat out sad.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

toomanybikes said:


> You're sounding just flat out sad.


Sad? everything coolhand said is true - confirmed by actual facts. Don't hate Columbia just because they won 4 stages and had riders in white and green, while Garmin is constantly hunting for second place or busy stopping other teams from scoring. 

Or am I sad now for saying that?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*SmugSideBurnedDufusDisliker?*



SilasCL said:


> Can I coin the phrase - vaughterhater?
> 
> Sounds like a car part or something.


Probably an exhaust part. . .


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

toomanybikes said:


> You're sounding just flat out sad.


Like a _Sad Panda_ sad? Because that's pretty sad.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

bill said:


> If Astana had given George the jersey by two minutes, which they say was the plan, does anyone but me think that there just was a chance he could have kept it over the rest day?I'm still trying to think this through. Either way, Garmin's hopes are not for the win but for a podium or maybe a top 5. Would having Columbia keep the jersey for another couple of days have hurt that possibility?


Zero point zero chance.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

bill said:


> If Astana had given George the jersey by two minutes, which they say was the plan, does anyone but me think that there just was a chance he could have kept it over the rest day?I'm still trying to think this through. Either way, Garmin's hopes are not for the win but for a podium or maybe a top 5. Would having Columbia keep the jersey for another couple of days have hurt that possibility?



Yes. It allows Astana to rest. The more you can wear out the podium hopefuls (Kloden/Armstrong) the better. 

Conti is locked in at #1, IMO.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*That's...*

why they call it racing and not winning..


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

88 rex said:


> Yes. It allows Astana to rest. The more you can wear out the podium hopefuls (Kloden/Armstrong) the better.
> 
> Conti is locked in at #1, IMO.


Are you kidding me? 
(1) No way Columbia would have held the jersey with 2 minutes to spare. 
(2) Contador/Kloden/Armstrong did and will continue doing ZERO work on the flats, and were as fresh as they could be for the climb
(3) On the flats leading up to the final 8K climb Astana was going to control the tempo regardless of who is in yellow - just like they did the past week
(4) Astana had Contador and Armstrong, protected by a very strong Kondi. Saxobank had two Schlecks, protected by Voigt and Cancellara doing strong tempo at early slopes. Garmin had Wiggo unprotected, with VandeVelde quickly going backwards. Wait, who was wearing out who again?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

55x11 said:


> Are you kidding me?
> (1) No way Columbia would have held the jersey with 2 minutes to spare.
> (2) Contador/Kloden/Armstrong did and will continue doing ZERO work on the flats, and were as fresh as they could be for the climb
> (3) On the flats leading up to the final 8K climb Astana was going to control the tempo regardless of who is in yellow - just like they did the past week
> (4) Astana had Contador and Armstrong, protected by a very strong Kondi. Saxobank had two Schlecks, protected by Voigt and Cancellara doing strong tempo at early slopes. Garmin had Wiggo unprotected, with VandeVelde quickly going backwards. Wait, who was wearing out who again?



Not sure why you're so mad at Garmin. They didn't murder someone or steal some kids lunch money. They are racing bikes in spandex on skinny little tires around France. It's a bike race. Relax. Breath in. Step away from anything dealing with bike racing. You are totally submerged in bike racing (and apparently an authority on how bike racing should be conducted). So it sounds like you need a break. 

And there is no reason to pick on VDV. He is lucky to be racing in the TDF at all this year after his crash in the Giro. In fact, out of sympathy for his hard efforts he should be awarded the yellow jersey for awhile. Not a virtual yellow either, the real deal MJ (kidding kidding, don't raise your blood pressure over a bike race.)


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

88 rex said:


> Not sure why you're so mad at Garmin. They didn't murder someone or steal some kids lunch money. They are racing bikes in spandex on skinny little tires around France. It's a bike race. Relax. Breath in. Step away from anything dealing with bike racing. You are totally submerged in bike racing (and apparently an authority on how bike racing should be conducted). So it sounds like you need a break.
> 
> And there is no reason to pick on VDV. He is lucky to be racing in the TDF at all this year after his crash in the Giro. In fact, out of sympathy for his hard efforts he should be awarded the yellow jersey for awhile. Not a virtual yellow either, the real deal MJ (kidding kidding, don't raise your blood pressure over a bike race.)


Why would you think I am mad at Garmin riders?! VdV is one of my favorite riders (along with Wiggo, Millar and Zabriskie), but he *was going backwards* and couldn't help Wiggo, while Astana had fresh Kloden pacing Armstrong and Conti blowing everyone away at the front. Those are just facts. Agreed?

You have some strange inability of separating facts from feelings. 

The *facts* listed as (1) through (4) above is to show that some people's claims of *brilliant* Garmin strategy that weakened Astana to the point that they could "only" win yellow, take the stage and have 3 riders in top 10 are not based on facts, but on wishful thinking to justify some sort of "vindication" theory.

Wiggo's brilliant ride Sunday was in no shape or form vindication of White's tactics the day before - as others noted before, it was completely unrelated.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

function said:


> It's not that he's lacking 'killer instinct' to stay on the podium, it's the fact that he doesn't have the required power/weight ratio at this point in the race to ride up front in the mountains with the leaders.


The same was said with Nocentini, that he wouldn't hold onto yellow for long. Yet at least he tried? Is it too much to ask for the same for George?


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

55x11 said:


> Sad? everything coolhand said is true - confirmed by actual facts. Don't hate Columbia just because they won 4 stages and had riders in white and green, while Garmin is constantly hunting for second place or busy stopping other teams from scoring.
> 
> Or am I sad now for saying that?


I didn't see any facts. I just saw alot of pathetic conjecture by someone with a Garmin complex. Notice he hasn't said a zilch about Lotto or the other teams up there pulling.

Nothing he says should be considered objective on this matter.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Coolhand said:


> They keep trying to sell that line of bullhockey, but nobody outside the few remaining Garmin faithful are buying it. Even the Garmin riders were questioning the move. Lying about it just made White and Vaughters bigger tools. At least man up and take ownership of what you did- we spike Columbia's guns out of spite- they mocked us, beat us soundly at every turn and made us look stupid at the Giro. This was our only chance for payback and we took it.
> 
> And if Wiggins didn't ride great, Garmin would have had nobody in the move as CVV got dropped early. Which will make Wiggins rumored jump to the new Sky team even funnier.


Wiggins has already stated he's not going to Sky. I'll give you a link if you want. Wiggins loves being at Garmin, this is probably the happiest he's been in his professional career.

The only thing that is funny is your repeated attempts at posing assumptions as fact. You obviously aren't stupid enough to understand the difference between the two.


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

jhamlin38 said:


> From garmins perspective, they wanted to keep wiggo close. Last I checked, GH aint on garmin. And wiggo or vdv on podium is more of a priority than "lending" the yellow jersey to a competitor.
> When all's said and done,GH and Lance will remain friends.


sorry keep Wiggo close to who? 

Someone in that break that was a threat on GC??? Who was that then?


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

moabbiker said:


> The same was said with Nocentini, that he wouldn't hold onto yellow for long. Yet at least he tried? Is it too much to ask for the same for George?


Yes actually it is, George really cannot climb with the lead group for very long. Nocentini would have a much better chance.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Regardless, it was great strategy on the part of Garmin.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

I think the biggest reason why people are mad at Garmin was because of the fact they didn't own up to it. Once the stage was done, the next day was already layed out for AG2R's standin (Astana) to drive the peloton. White's repeated excuse of "we didn't want to get caught out" was complete bull, put your GC rider into the top 25 and you won't get caught out, there's no need to drive the pack. If he just said it's part of our strategy to keep Astana at the front then it would make sense and I think people would of accepted it a lot better. 

The fact that the riders didn't have a clue after the stage hurts Garmin too though as evidenced by their twitter and interview remarks. If you leave your team that clueless, then JV or White isn't doing their job anyway. 

IMO Garmin wasn't vindicated since Astana would of probably had to drive the peloton if GH was in yellow or not as they knew George wasn't going to keep it in an uphill finish so they probably wouldn't of defended the jersey very hard either mich like AG2R did. I think it turned out to be the same end, but they spited GH because they knew AG2R was toast and they knew that vs assuming Colombia wouldn't defend the jersey.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

CaliBuddha said:


> I feel the same way. Why would someone just LET him take a win? Doesnt make sense to me... Maybe Im just a jerk


Because there was no strategic advantage to the chase. For some reason they were attempting to punish a 14 tour veteran who, at least to my knowledge, has never taken a cheap shot at anybody. It's not a rule violation, but it is bad sportsmanship. If you don't think so why were 2 commentators surprised and 2 (who rode in the tour) shocked by the action? Why were JB and LA surprised?


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## Sasquatch (Feb 3, 2004)

Both JB and LA have said that if George got yellow, it would have helped Astana. What helps astana does NOT help Garmin. Jeez people, get with the program. This is racing and Garmin ain't Columbia's domestiques!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

lookrider said:


> Regardless, it was great strategy on the part of Garmin.


Not really and most unbiased observers agree:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...+Test+Team+_+kyykjj&utm_term=Whats+New+072109


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

Sasquatch said:


> Both JB and LA have said that if George got yellow, it would have helped Astana. What helps astana does NOT help Garmin. Jeez people, get with the program. This is racing and Garmin ain't Columbia's domestiques!


You have to put it on context. They were trying to deflect criticism that they tried to keep Hincapie out of yellow. It didn't make a darn bit of difference to Astana if AG2R or Columbia had the jersey. It shouldn't have made any difference to Garmin. Astana had the firepower to put Contador in yellow if they wanted- and hold it all the way to Paris. They backed off to give a retiring cyclist an honor that won't add up to a hill of beans in Paris.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Coolhand said:


> Not really and most unbiased observers agree:
> 
> http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...+Test+Team+_+kyykjj&utm_term=Whats+New+072109


Bro, they used "Haters" in the second line. Unbiased?:lol: 

It was a great, great, move which keeps getting better the more you guys whine about it.

George will remember it till....well, forever....

PS. I read a lot of that stuff quickly and the writer seems to be debunking a lot of what has been said here about the chance of George keeping the yellow if he had gotten a couple of minutes. 

He goes on to assail Garmins lack of results but isn't Wiggens in postion to win still? Where is columbia? Their Tour looks to be over. We won't be hearing from them except for the complaining about GH's yellow jersey....


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Saying that article is unbiased is about as intellectually dishonest as one can get.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

*Exactly!*



makeitso said:


> I think the biggest reason why people are mad at Garmin was because of the fact they didn't own up to it. Once the stage was done, the next day was already layed out for AG2R's standin (Astana) to drive the peloton. White's repeated excuse of "we didn't want to get caught out" was complete bull, put your GC rider into the top 25 and you won't get caught out, there's no need to drive the pack. If he just said it's part of our strategy to keep Astana at the front then it would make sense and I think people would of accepted it a lot better.
> 
> The fact that the riders didn't have a clue after the stage hurts Garmin too though as evidenced by their twitter and interview remarks. If you leave your team that clueless, then JV or White isn't doing their job anyway.
> 
> IMO Garmin wasn't vindicated since Astana would of probably had to drive the peloton if GH was in yellow or not as they knew George wasn't going to keep it in an uphill finish so they probably wouldn't of defended the jersey very hard either mich like AG2R did. I think it turned out to be the same end, but they spited GH because they knew AG2R was toast and they knew that vs assuming Colombia wouldn't defend the jersey.


Exactly. Garmin had no explanation for it whatsoever so they said "well, we didn't want Wiggo to be caught in a split". Pathetic. It was pure spite against a rival American team (that has made them look bad from a sponsor's viewpoint). You guys keep telling yourselves that they would have rather had AG2r in yellow rather than George to help them in the GC. Ok.

Ironically, Garmin spiting Columbia and George like that makes them look even worse from an American sponsor's viewpoint. Lose, lose.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

lookrider said:


> Bro, they used "Haters" in the second line. Unbiased?:lol:
> 
> It was a great, great, move which keeps getting better the more you guys whine about it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, yeah, that's it. It was a tactical move to get Wiggins into position to win- he gained all kinds of time on Contador and Armstrong with that chase- and if he didn't it was a tactical move to tire them out, starving them of oxygen as they sat in the slipstream. Wiggins will attack on Ventoux and surprise everyone. And Columbia is full of sour grapes because they haven't done anything in the tour this year while Garmin is flush with success. It's so obvious now. I don't know why none of the commentators or other pros saw it. 

Just one thing, remind me, who was Garmin chasing that Wiggins needed time on? I can just hear the race radio- "Chase Hincapie or he'll attack in the mountains after his 160 K break away and doom us all."


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

California L33 said:


> Yeah, yeah, that's it. It was a tactical move to get Wiggins into position to win- he gained all kinds of time on Contador and Armstrong with that chase-


He only lost time to one Astana guy, he gained time on the other one.



California L33 said:


> It's so obvious now. I don't know why none of the commentators or other pros saw it.


I'll tell you why those unbiased:lol: commentators didn't see it. Because GH is playing Barney Fife to LA's Andy Griffith on the LA network.



California L33 said:


> Just one thing, remind me, who was Garmin chasing that Wiggins needed time on? I can just hear the race radio- "Chase Hincapie or he'll attack in the mountains after his 160 K break away and doom us all."


It was a preemptive strike on Astana. Who did both LA and JB want in yellow? Why? For sentimental reasons?:lol: 

In addition there seems to be a lot of psychic fallout for Columbia and their fans. 

Here's the word from Coolhand's experts.:smilewinkgrin: 

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...ike-an-earthquake-but-it-wasn-t-one..304.html

_I'm sure if you did some research you'd see how often George played enforcer for Lance in the huge mountains. To repeat, he can climb. Agreed, he can't keep up with Contador's explosive attacks. But if it's a Tour title on the line he could likely keep the gap reasonable. (You can rest assured if he'd been in yellow en route to Verbier -- especially if his lead was significant -- he wouldn't have lost 4 minutes like he did.) (2) George is a world-class time trialist. It's conceivable that he'd lose zero time in next week's Annecy TT._​

Hey, it was a great move. My suggestion is to move on before you devote too much energy to a losing cause....


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

DZfan14 said:


> I didn't see any facts. I just saw alot of pathetic conjecture by someone with a Garmin complex. Notice he hasn't said a zilch about Lotto or the other teams up there pulling.
> 
> Nothing he says should be considered objective on this matter.


Oh really. Pot meet kettle.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

lookrider said:


> Bro, they used "Haters" in the second line. Unbiased?:lol:
> 
> It was a great, great, move which keeps getting better the more you guys whine about it.
> 
> ...



you said bro.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators note.*



DZfan14 said:


> The only thing that is funny is your repeated attempts at posing assumptions as fact. You obviously aren't stupid enough to understand the difference between the two.


And you about personal attacks. Take a few days to cool off and try again. Please review the posting guidelines on your return.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

DZfan14 said:


> Saying that article is unbiased is about as intellectually dishonest as one can get.


Intellectually dishonest?:shocked: 

Do they have a debate after the race?:17: 

Face it, it was a great move which keeps getting better and better with the :cryin: .

When you're in a fight and a major rival is left crying on the side of the road, I'd say it was a pretty convincing victory..:cryin: :cryin: :lol: :lol: :2: rrr: :17:


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

lookrider said:


> He only lost time to one Astana guy, he gained time on the other one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love how you managed to avoid all the critical commentary about Garmin in your quote. Nicely done!


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

SicBith said:


> you said bro.


Yeah Man/Woman.

I wonder how long this will affect Columbia's performance?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

lookrider said:


> Intellectually dishonest?:shocked:
> 
> Do they have a debate after the race?:17:
> 
> ...


Needs more smilies. :23:


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

huez said:


> Exactly. Garmin had no explanation for it whatsoever so they said "well, we didn't want Wiggo to be caught in a split". Pathetic. It was pure spite against a rival American team (that has made them look bad from a sponsor's viewpoint). You guys keep telling yourselves that they would have rather had AG2r in yellow rather than George to help them in the GC. Ok.
> 
> Ironically, Garmin spiting Columbia and George like that makes them look even worse from an American sponsor's viewpoint. Lose, lose.


Is there a time penalty for an unsatisfactory explanation?


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

Hincapie was not in yellow because he finished the stage off weak. No one to blame but himself. He could have rode off that 5 seconds on his own and no one to blame but himself.. he should have just buckled down and taken the yellow for himself instead of playing around.. with the stragglers on that stage. So ya GH = FAIL.


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

lookrider said:


> Yeah Man/Woman.
> 
> I wonder how long this will affect Columbia's performance?



What ?

Columbia's performance will not be affected in the mtns. You must have performance for it to be affected.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

shabbasuraj said:


> Hincapie was not in yellow because he finished the stage off weak. No one to blame but himself. He could have rode off that 5 seconds on his own and no one to blame but himself.. he should have just buckled down and taken the yellow for himself instead of playing around.. with the stragglers on that stage. So ya GH = FAIL.


let me guess. you don't ride/race much, do ya? 

[SARCASM] Sure, Hincapie could have just go to the front and gapped people as they were attacking each other like crazy to get to Ivanov - surely he could have easily done that after driving the break for most of the day. Or maybe he should have just attacked with 5K to go like Ivanov did and opened up 3 minute gap on everyone. Or maybe attack with 20 km to go. Instead, he FAILED. Haha, what a loser! [/SARCASM]

Here's a test - get a few buddies of equal riding abilty. Go out and hammer at the front into the wind for a few hours with them sitting in tow, completely full-out. Make sure they are still fresh. Then ask them to attack you, sprint away from you with all they got and see how easy it is to not to "buckle down", go to the front and still find those extra 5 seconds in your legs.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

lookrider said:


> It was a preemptive strike on Astana. Who did both LA and JB want in yellow? Why? For sentimental reasons?:lol:


Bingo! When JB said it was their intention to have Hincapie in yellow it wasn't part of some grand strategy to beat Wiggins. He was replying to criticism that he attacked George for no reason. He was pointing out that he chased only far enough to keep George from becoming a GC threat, and he probably realized in hindsight that he had been way too conservative. He could have backed off at 12 minutes and still had a huge comfort zone- Hincapie was wasted after the break and no way could have been a threat in the Alps. It didn't really matter to JB whether it was Nocentini or Hincapie in yellow (edit: so long as Hincapie didn't end up with a ridiculous advantage). AG2R wasn't strong enough to chase down the break. It was their jersey to defend. 

A preemptive strike on Astana? I guess we're just going around in circles here, but how does Garmin wasting their energy chasing a non-threat break away attack Astana with Contador and Lance sipping margaritas in the slipstream behind them?


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

. . . not to mention that when he got off the bike, he was the virtual leader, no? the gap was closed in the final k's, after the break had crossed the line.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

With better explanations, will George get the yellow?

George is going to be a bitter old man...

A little slapdown is turning into the move of the century...


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## shabbasuraj (May 14, 2005)

GH = FAIL. He could not ride 5 seconds into yellow so he does not deserve it. HTC is just the biggest whiners from Cavy Cheater baby to their ol ' random grumbling grandpa DS. Good for the entire peloton for racing to the line. GH has no one to blame but himself, he failed, he could not put in a FINAL attack for the yellow so he does not get any yellow. Now and probably for the rest of his career.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

everyone keeps saying that George should have ridden harder and closed the 5 seconds. Wasn't he, like, taking a shower by the time the 5 seconds disappeared?
Maybe if he had ridden the finale differently, it would have come out differently, but he couldn't have known that the difference was going to be 5 seconds and ridden differently for that reason.


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## elvisvelo (Sep 24, 2008)

*Serious Up, and follow along...*

First, read the relevant posts in this and other threads...
Second, a review:
1. & 2. this is a RACE
3. Garmin has podium or near podium hopefuls
4. giving George time puts him in a position to potentially affect that
5. making (potentially) Astana work more (as they have been), instead of Columbia working to "support" George is good for Garmin
6. IMHO, and this is the opinion part, the above being mostly reality-based, if George was facing the biggest disappointment of his pro career, than he darn well could have done more about it than he did. Geez, stop whining George.




California L33 said:


> Because there was no strategic advantage to the chase. For some reason they were attempting to punish a 14 tour veteran who, at least to my knowledge, has never taken a cheap shot at anybody. It's not a rule violation, but it is bad sportsmanship. If you don't think so why were 2 commentators surprised and 2 (who rode in the tour) shocked by the action? Why were JB and LA surprised?


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