# Wheel re-lacing: need help!



## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Dear expert wheel builders,

I recently purchased a wheelset from #### (a reputable builder). The design process was fun, I got to talk to the wheelbuilder and we agreed on the following for my 175 lb weight commuting 40 miles on crappy roads:

Front:
White Industries T11 Black
Sapim CX-Ray Black
Blue Alloy Nipples
HED C2
18 spokes Radial Lacing

Rear:
White Industries T11 Black
Sapim CX-Ray Black
Blue Alloy Nipples
HED C2
24 spokes (I left #### to decide on the lacing pattern)

There were multiple delays, I was given the runaround multiple times (twice the manufacturer sent boxes of hubs that were mislabeled!) but finally received the wheels a couple of weeks ago. To my surprise, the *rear wheel was laced 2xDS/0xNDS*. The nipples were black instead of blue and each wheel was out of true by more than 2mm. And the spokes were CX-Race DS/CX-Ray NDS. But at least I had the wheels.

Now, 2 weeks and less than 150 miles later, while doing some maintenance on the bike today, I noticed that the rear wheel was substantially out of dish towards the drive side.

So I put the wheel in the truing stand, checked trueness and tension and to my dismay, *NDS tension was extremely low (<50kgf)* while DS was about right at 120 kgf. *3 NDS spokes had gone completely slack *. 

Retensioned wheel. NDS values are now around 80 kgf (60-90 range) and DS are 140-160 kgf. The DS tensions are clearly too high but if I leave them around 120kgf, the NDS spokes will be under too little tension.

I had trusted #### with designing the best wheel for my need and despite all I have read about him being one of the greatest wheel builders, I must faced the inescapable conclusion that he produced a dud.

Pfeew, this was a loooong lead in to my question (sorry, I had to vent).

*What lacing pattern do you recommend for a HED C2/WI T11 rear wheel?
*
Thanks!
Max


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Really there's not much you can do about it.
L/R tension ratio for that hub is 42%, so with DS tension at 120kgf, NDS tension would indeed hover at around 50kgf. Since the builder already laced the wheel with heavier gauge spokes DS, the only thing I can think of would be to lace NDS 2x, DS 1x heads in, but this may cause your rear derailleur to interfere with your spokes.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

FuelForThought said:


> I recently purchased a wheelset from #### (a reputable builder). The design process was fun, I got to talk to the wheelbuilder and we agreed on the following for my 175 lb weight commuting 40 miles on crappy roads


Irrespective of all the issues like incorrect specs, poor build quality and unequal tension issues, why would anyone *want* or even *agree to build* a wheelset with these specs for a commuting wheelset for a person your weight on crappy roads? This is beyond belief.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

I too put huge question marks with this spec, but I cynically think it's because the possible mark-up on a WI hubset, HED rims, and CX-Ray spokes is a lot more than on Ultegra hubs, Kinlin rims, and Comp spokes? (which is what I would build for a commuter wheelset)


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

You have bought top shelf components; although the drilling are questionable for your weight and use the question is what could be possibly done to salvage what you got.

If I was in your position I would attempt rebuilding the wheels using the highest number of crosses allowed. The spoke length calculator I use is by Wheelpro, it shows you the optimum crosses for the hub-rim set. I would also use Sapim Force instead of the Cx-rays or Race; they are of heavier ga at the elbow. Lastly, I would not use radial lacing on anything and I would lace the rear wheel with the same pattern on both sides.
The HED C2 being a wider rim helps somewhat bridge the gap created by the low spoke count. The max tension recommended by HED is 130 kgf.

However, even if the above worked and gave me a marginal at best wheelset, it would not be the set I would use when commuting.

Good luck.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies.

To clarify a bit, actual weight is 165 lb and wheelset is to be all-around rather than strictly commute. Group rides, solo rides, possibly some races next year. Even my "commute" qualifies as a destination ride with remote roads and 3000ft of climbing and many Strava segments with >4000 attempts. I asked several wheelbuilders before purchase and opinion was split between 24 and 28 on rear.

I like the idea of 1xDS head in/2xNDS. I am running 105 9-spd right now but will likely upgrade to DA 11-spd later this year. The problem is that if there is a derailleur clearance issue with the 1xDS head in, I won't know until I upgrade. Thus 2x both sides might be the best (most future-proof) option.


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

Funny you should mention that build. I recently built my own set using 'almost' everything you mentioned. T-11 hubs, C2 rims and Sapim spokes, but a higher count at 24/28 since I'm 200lbs.
I went radial in front and DS 3x / NDX 2x in rear. My DS spokes are Sapim Race and NDS are CX-Ray.
I knew my NDS tension would be a little low since the new design of the T-11 negatively affected that, so I made sure to use a nipple cream that I've had good luck with in the past (Rock N Roll brand). I aimed right for 130kg on the DS and let my NDS fall where it may. Kept as good of a balance as I could between tension and roundness and was very happy with the outcome.
I purposely went out in search of rough roads for the first few rides to give them a good shake down, roads I don't normally ride on. A few high speed chip sealed and pot holed descents and they passed with flying colors. So I'm more than confident they will handle my normal riding style but still have room for surprises.


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

With the lower tension on the NDS (the new WI hub has a pretty high ratio of drive side tension to non drive side tension difference), radial lacing is definitely not the answer. The nipple will thread onto the spoke very well and with no angle on the spoke it will be easy to unwind. Every wheel I have ever ridden with radial NDS spokes has had problems with them loosening up a bit (unless a heavy spoke freeze was used). 
By crossing the spokes you put a little angle on the nipple which helps keep it in place. In my opinion, radial spokes have no place in a rear wheel. If you kept the same drive side tension but had the NDS relaced to 2X it would probably stay in tension better, and you would have better transfer of torque.

Also, why do you want alloy nipples on a wheel that will be used for commuting?


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

dcgriz said:


> The spoke length calculator I use is by Wheelpro, it shows you the optimum crosses for the hub-rim set.


Thanks for the tip! Just to be clear about the color code on the WheelPro calculator, Red is no-no, gray is bad, white is OK, blue is good? Or is white better than blue?


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

coachboyd said:


> With the lower tension on the NDS (the new WI hub has a pretty high ratio of drive side tension to non drive side tension difference), radial lacing is definitely not the answer. The nipple will thread onto the spoke very well and with no angle on the spoke it will be easy to unwind. Every wheel I have ever ridden with radial NDS spokes has had problems with them loosening up a bit (unless a heavy spoke freeze was used).
> By crossing the spokes you put a little angle on the nipple which helps keep it in place. In my opinion, radial spokes have no place in a rear wheel. If you kept the same drive side tension but had the NDS relaced to 2X it would probably stay in tension better, and you would have better transfer of torque.
> 
> Also, why do you want alloy nipples on a wheel that will be used for commuting?


My most frequent ride is a commute in the sense that it takes me from home to work. In every other sense, it qualifies as a fast 40 miles (one-way) group (or solo) ride. Last Thursday, it was done as a group of 3 averaging 19.8mph. I shouldn't have said commuting, it just confuses everyone. Let's call it a group ride.

I like your idea of only relacing the NDS. How would you go about it? 
De-tension the entire wheel 1/2 turn at a time (first DS only, then all nipples) until all spokes are slack. Then remove NDS spokes and relace 2x, Do you use spoke prep or just motor oil?


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## Enoch562 (May 13, 2010)

I would loosen the Non drive first, it should take some of the pressure of the nipple on the drive side


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

What is rebuilding to 2X both sides going to fix when the problem remains of poor tension ratios with that rear hub?

I would first check if the NDS was built heads in or out.
If it was built heads in, change to heads out, this will improve the NDS tension ratio to 54%
If it was already built heads out, 2X NDS will actually be worse (44%) 

2XNDS/1XDS heads in is 67%


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## coachboyd (Jan 13, 2008)

FuelForThought said:


> My most frequent ride is a commute in the sense that it takes me from home to work. In every other sense, it qualifies as a fast 40 miles (one-way) group (or solo) ride. Last Thursday, it was done as a group of 3 averaging 19.8mph. I shouldn't have said commuting, it just confuses everyone. Let's call it a group ride.
> 
> I like your idea of only relacing the NDS. How would you go about it?
> De-tension the entire wheel 1/2 turn at a time (first DS only, then all nipples) until all spokes are slack. Then remove NDS spokes and relace 2x, Do you use spoke prep or just motor oil?


There's still no benefit of having alloy nipples (except they could be blue in color which is not a huge benefit). I would definitely do brass nipples especially with the higher tensions. You may find it's going to be hard to make drive side adjustments without rounding off those alloy nipples.

For converting the NDS to 2X if the original tension is consistent and you are happy with it then you should be able to undo the NDS, relace, and retension just the non drive side. You may need to make a few small adjustments to the drive side. Easton actually uses an approach similar to this as they completely tension the drive side before bringing the NDS up to tension.

I like to use boiled linseed oil as spoke prep. It dries somewhat tacky so that helps with keeping the lower tension non drive side spokes from loosening, but it doesn't lock the nipples into place so you can still easily adjust them down the road if you need to.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

FuelForThought said:


> Thanks for the tip! Just to be clear about the color code on the WheelPro calculator, Red is no-no, gray is bad, white is OK, blue is good? Or is white better than blue?


White is preferred, blue is ok but not preferred, red is no, gray is for radial and when allowed by hub maker.

Or the quick way is to divide the number of drillings by 9. Front 18/9=2 means x2, rear 24/9=2+ but not quite 3, also means x2.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Update:
I got in touch with the shop that built the wheelset. The wheelbuilder in question no longer works for them but they are doing everything they can to rectify the situation.
In their opinion, the wheel needed spokefreeze. They sent me some and I carefully trued the wheel. Tension balance was poor with more than +/-20% variations. So I de-tensioned the entire wheel and re-tensioned everything very slowly. I have attached the result: not pretty.

I also noticed that the rim was not straight to start with. Now I am concerned that the rim got damaged after some of the NDS spokes went slack. Should I now get a new rim?

For comparison sake, I also measured the front wheel. Tension is nearly perfectly even.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

FuelForThought said:


> In their opinion, the wheel needed spokefreeze.


That's just not needed. Proper tension keeps nipples from loosening. The tensions need to be made as even as possible. If the wheel can't be made quite true with very even tensions then the rim is bent and should be replaced. Nothing is perfect so absolute trueness and dead even tensions aren't possible.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Mike T. said:


> That's just not needed. Proper tension keeps nipples from loosening.


With the new shimano 11spd hub designs, it will be a challenge to get enough tension on the NDS to keep nipples from loosening. As pointed above, in my 24h spoked wheel, 120kgf on the DS results in ~55kgf on the NDS. 

As much as I love the idea of having wheels built from nice components, the extreme problem posed by 11spd freewheel may be better solved by factory wheels like Fulcrum with hubs and rims designed for triplet lacing. 

My LBS had been highly recommending Fulcrums and after all the trouble I have had with the wheelbuilder and the wheel itself, part of me wished that I had gone the way of the LBS.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

rcb78 said:


> Funny you should mention that build. I recently built my own set using 'almost' everything you mentioned. T-11 hubs, C2 rims and Sapim spokes, but a higher count at 24/28 since I'm 200lbs.
> I went radial in front and DS 3x / NDX 2x in rear. My DS spokes are Sapim Race and NDS are CX-Ray.
> I knew my NDS tension would be a little low since the new design of the T-11 negatively affected that, so I made sure to use a nipple cream that I've had good luck with in the past (Rock N Roll brand). I aimed right for 130kg on the DS and let my NDS fall where it may. Kept as good of a balance as I could between tension and roundness and was very happy with the outcome.
> I purposely went out in search of rough roads for the first few rides to give them a good shake down, roads I don't normally ride on. A few high speed chip sealed and pot holed descents and they passed with flying colors. So I'm more than confident they will handle my normal riding style but still have room for surprises.


I am curious, what kind of tension did you end up getting on the NDS?


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, was/is the NDS laced heads in or out?
Also, how much ds/nds spoke tension did you end up with, because the chart, while informative, doesn't show any detail (for me)


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

Mackers said:


> Just out of curiosity, was/is the NDS laced heads in or out?


Head out. The wheelbuilder, while flaky, is reputed to be one the best in the country. 



Mackers said:


> Also, how much ds/nds spoke tension did you end up with, because the chart, while informative, doesn't show any detail (for me)


DS: 114kgf ave.; 97.3kgf min., 136.5 kgf max.
NDS: 55.2 kgf ave., 41.5 kgf min., 66.0 kgf max.

The measured NDS/DS ratio is 48%. Not quite the 54% you calculated but fairly close nonetheless.

The bigger problem is that I have a damaged rim that is not coming up to even tension.


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## tidelag (Sep 23, 2005)

hello, why aren't you searching up that "reputable wheelbuilder" and really show him how to lace up a wheel? 

That thread made me angry, you've used a lot of money and time to get a nice wheel, while it should be HIS responsibility to ensure that you've (= a paying customer) gotten a good wheel.

I really hate peoples who doesn't take responsibiblity or does a good job, don't they really care for anything in their life?

Anyway, I am glad that you've resourceful enought to repair this, but now you have a damaged rim. How about complaining to LBS? 

let them burn because they hired a moron to build wheel?
Your patience is very impressive, but I think that you've to learn to be less patient.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

FuelForThought said:


> Head out. The wheelbuilder, while flaky, is reputed to be one the best in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, those are some huge differences.

I was prepared to give the builder the benefit of the doubt, since he seemed to have done all he could to make this combination work, while keeping the wheel future proof, but that does look like a bad rim. He should have checked for / noticed this. Very disappointing.


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## MrCharlie (Nov 28, 2012)

It seems that you are trying to salvage the C2 rim, but why not scrap it and use an asymmetric rim? I am in the same spot as you right now. Just built up WI T11's laced to Open Pro's without realizing the terrible situation I was getting myself into in term of NDS tension. I am ordering a DT rr 440 asymmetrical and will use DT Comp drive side and Revolutions NDS to allow the difference in gauge to further alleviate the tension problem.

As a side note, I actually dented the rear rim about a week ago. The dent was small and on the non-drive side. Could this have had anything to do with the tension problem or is this purely coincidence? I have never dented a rim before, but, then again, I have only used heavier rims, i.e., Mavic A719.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

MrCharlie said:


> It seems that you are trying to salvage the C2 rim, but why not scrap it and use an asymmetric rim? I am in the same spot as you right now. Just built up WI T11's laced to Open Pro's without realizing the terrible situation I was getting myself into in term of NDS tension. I am ordering a DT rr 440 asymmetrical and will use DT Comp drive side and Revolutions NDS to allow the difference in gauge to further alleviate the tension problem.
> 
> As a side note, I actually dented the rear rim about a week ago. The dent was small and on the non-drive side. Could this have had anything to do with the tension problem or is this purely coincidence? I have never dented a rim before, but, then again, I have only used heavier rims, i.e., Mavic A719.


I was thinking along the same lines with an A23 OC (which just got released). There are a lot of reports of cracking around the eyelets on asym rims but the new rims may fare better.

In my case, the wheelset went back to the shop and I bought some Fulcrum Race zero (for the same cost). These T11/C2 kept bringing bad karmic waves: in the few short weeks I owned them, I crashed hard (wiped out on a corner at 30mph), I dented the rim on the NDS (conicidence?) and spent countless hours futzing around with the wheels.

IMO, triplet lacing is the way to go with 24h, shimano 11spd and a 160lb rider. But an OC rim sounds like a great option too. At my weight, I would definitely go with 28h/3x/2x for a custom 11spd wheelset.


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## Arby Again (Nov 30, 2012)

Sorry for the slight hijacking but I am in a bit of a panic. I just ordered a custom build of Hed C2 rims (24H fr, 28H rear), WI H2/H3 hubs, Sapim CX Ray spokes, brass nipples.

For lacing the buillder recommends radial front, and 2x DS, 1x NDS for rear. Hearing all this talk of tension problems has me worried. Should I be concerned about this build? Also, would it matter if the builder used the T11 hub instead of the H3?

I am 150 lbs and do basic club rides on paved roads at 18-20 MPH. I am taking a leap of faith here going with a custom build and now I am worried that I should have stuck with a factory build like Shimano Ultegra or Dura Ace. Thanks for your advice.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

The H3 has better offsets. Should be a very solid build for you.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

The H3 hub has excellent flange spacing, so no worries there.

Not so sure about the 1x NDS though. First of all it's not needed, and secondly the spokes will cross at the fat sections, and, imo, look like crap.


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## Arby Again (Nov 30, 2012)

Thanks to rruff and Mackers for the quick feedback. It sounds like the H3 with the common 2x DS, 2x NDS is a solid choice for my Hed C2 28H rear wheel (shimano 10 speed).


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

You cant go wrong with 2x/2x. You can go quite wrong with 1x or radial on the NDS, sometimes making unridable wheels. Sometimes not. Its a toss up, but 2x/2x always works.


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

And we wonder why people buy factory built wheels... what a mess.


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## Arby Again (Nov 30, 2012)

I checked with the builder and even though I selected an H3 hub for the build he was going to build with the T11. I decided to cancel the build because I am not comfortable with the situation I was getting myself into.


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## FuelForThought (May 13, 2012)

nightfend said:


> And we wonder why people buy factory built wheels... what a mess.


THat is exactly what I ended up doing. Returned the T11/C2 wheels from hell and purchased Fulcrum Race Zero (from BikeDiscount.com at the same price as the customs). Could not bear the thought of tinkering any more with those custom wheels.


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