# quill stem won't go into fork



## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

Hi all:

I bought a 2000 Litespeed Blue Ridge frame off of Fleabay to build into an all-rounder. It came with a cut-too-short threadless fork. I bought a used threaded 1" Steelman fork for a good price. It looked to be in very good shape when I got it. I needed the fork to be shortened (and re-threaded) by my LBS. I bought a threaded (2nut C King) headset from my LBS and had them install it. Now I was at the point of getting the proper tightness on the headset. Zinn recommended doing the adjustment with the stem in the fork so I proceeded to install a Nitto Deluxe stem prior to do the tightening.

Here is where I encountered my problem. The stem will only go part way into the stem and then stops as if it hit a block. The stop point is just above the max height line for the stem. (Everything has been coated with heavy lube.) At first, I thought the issue was grit. So I cleaned out the inside of the fork until it was like a dinner plate. No luck. Next I thought there might be some flex/binding between the wedge and the stem. So I took off the wedge and inserted both separately. Both got stuck at about the same point in the fork head tube.

So now I am wondering what happened and what is the next step. Could the fork steerer have been ovalized during cutting by clamping? Could I have an out-of-spec stem? 

What is your advice?


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

What is the internal diameter of the fork? And what is the external diameter of the stem?

There are 2 avail. 22.2 and a 21.2. If your trying to put a 22.2 into a fork with a 21.2 ID, then there is your problem.


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

In my case, it was an out-of-spec steerer tube on the fork. 

I bought a bike with an Easton EC-30 fork. The headset was a little notchy, so I took it to the LBS to have a new one installed. They had to _drive_ out the quill-to-threadless stem adapter. It would not go back in, nor would any other quill stem or adapter we tried, even after honing the inside of the steerer.

I took the bike and a new quill-to-threadless adapter to a friend who has a lathe. He took either 1/1000" or 2/1000" (I don't recall) off the stem adapter and its wedge. Works just a charm now. I coated the thing in anti-seize and it popped right in. It adjusts up and down just like it's supposed to.


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

Steel steerer tubes are single butted on the inside for greater strength at the crown. Typically the thicker walled area ends about 2.5" up from the bottom. 

Normally nobody notices or cares because nothing ever goes that deep. But if you have a small frame with a head tube length 5" or less your stem can bottom out on the butt. 

Nothing to do about it it's just the way these things are. If you absolutely need to get the stem lower, you need to trim the stem from the bottom, which can be tricky depending on whether it's a single taper wedge, or split tube and cone design.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

FBinNY said:


> Steel steerer tubes are single butted on the inside for greater strength at the crown. Typically the thicker walled area ends about 2.5" up from the bottom.
> 
> Normally nobody notices or cares because nothing ever goes that deep. But if you have a small frame with a head tube length 5" or less your stem can bottom out on the butt.


Arggh!! I was afraid I was going to get a message like this. The head tube is short on the LS which is why I got a longish stem like the Nitto Deluxe. 

Any suggestions for recovery or is this a complete fail? Losing a nice Steelman fork is really a pile of hurt.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

FBinNY said:


> Steel steerer tubes are single butted on the inside for greater strength at the crown. Typically the thicker walled area ends about 2.5" up from the bottom.
> 
> Normally nobody notices or cares because nothing ever goes that deep. But if you have a small frame with a head tube length 5" or less your stem can bottom out on the butt.
> 
> Nothing to do about it it's just the way these things are. If you absolutely need to get the stem lower, you need to trim the stem from the bottom, which can be tricky depending on whether it's a single taper wedge, or split tube and cone design.


^ ^ ^ This.

Typical 1" steel threaded steerer tubes have 2.3mm wall thickness at the fork crown end and 1.5mm wall thickness at the threaded end. The 25.4mm O.D. reduced by the 3.0mm (1.5mm + 1.5mm) tube wall gives it an I.D. of 22.4mm into which a 22.2mm quill stem fits perfectly. The I.D. at the crown end is 25.4mm minus 4.6mm walls, or 20.8mm, so the 22.2mm quill stops when it hits the internal butt taper from 22.4mm to 20.8mm.

HERE's a typical steel threaded steerer tube from Nova.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

frdfandc said:


> What is the internal diameter of the fork? And what is the external diameter of the stem?
> 
> There are 2 avail. 22.2 and a 21.2. If your trying to put a 22.2 into a fork with a 21.2 ID, then there is your problem.


Would the stem go in partway or fail to go in at all--given FB's observation?


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

KenS said:


> Would the stem go in partway or fail to go in at all--given FB's observation?


Even a 21.2mm stem will get stuck at the taper. On the 180mm steerer I linked to, the butt length is 50mm and the taper length is 30mm, so essentially you'd have 100mm with 22.4mm I.D. that the stem would go into before hitting the taper. On a shorter steerer you'd have a shorter length with a 22.4mm I.D.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

FBinNY has it.

What size frame are you riding?

I've had this steerer tube taper issue on other bikes as well. I'm on small frames so with these having a HT of 90-110mm, I have had this happen with some frequency.  The wedge stems are easier to mod since one just grinds them down. This is why I like the 3T Columbus Thron tubed quill stems.


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## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

Some of the Nitto stems have particularly long quills; this may be the problem. Assuming there are enough threads on the stem's expander bolt, or that you can find an appropriate bolt or cut more threads, the easiest solution here is to get out the hacksaw and shorten the stem at the bottom. If the expander is a wedge rather than a cone, try to make the angle the same. If it's a cone, try to duplicate any cutouts that were there before you chopped them off. Once you've shortened the stem, remember the "max. height" markings will no longer mean anything - DO NOT raise the bars too high and bend or snap off the stem!

The other thing that can cause this problem is an out-of-spec steerer tube. We once had a batch of Columbus steerers sent from Italy that were French standard, and had to ream them all out before any normal stems would fit...

Most likely your problem is as the previous posters have said though - get out that hacksaw!


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

Kuma601 said:


> FBinNY has it.
> 
> What size frame are you riding?
> 
> I've had this steerer tube taper issue on other bikes as well. I'm on small frames so with these having a HT of 90-110mm, I have had this happen with some frequency.  The wedge stems are easier to mod since one just grinds them down. This is why I like the 3T Columbus Thron tubed quill stems.


It is a 55. I usually take a 53 - 55 cm frame. The head tube is 96 mm. The wedge is pretty large on the Nitto stem.


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

satanas said:


> Some of the Nitto stems have particularly long quills; this may be the problem.
> 
> Most likely your problem is as the previous posters have said though - get out that hacksaw!


The stem is a Nitto Deluxe, which is halfway between the Technomic and the Pearl in height. I thought I was being clever by getting a slightly taller stem. It looks like I should have gone with the Pearl.


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

I'm having this problem right now with a Nitto Deuluxe stem and a 48cm frame. The head tube is very short (barely 5") and I have already had a machine shop shorten the stem. Still, the stem only goes about half way and that is way to tall. So...should I ream out the inside of the steerer or consider trying to reduce the diameter of the stem a bit? Any idea if we might be talking about a .0001 or so or might it be a lot more? 

Thanks.


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

There's no easy to ream this. Typically the lowest 2" of a steerer tube will have almost double the wall thickness, from 1/16" to almost 1/8". In any case you don't want to remove any of that material, it's there for a reason. The crown area of a fork is far and away the most highly stressed part of a frame, and a failure there is almost guaranteed to have fatal or near fatal consequences.\

You're best option is to shorten the stem even more, though it sounds like this is a case of measure twice, cut once. The other possibility is to purchase or have made a track style stem, which has a sharp angle so the extension brings the bar lower.


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

Thanks FB, makes sense.

I also ran across this which lays it out pretty well. Guess I'll have to figure out my next approach.

Hands Up! Adjusting Handlebar Stem Height on Your Bicycle


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## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

^ What FBinNY said.

Also, a 5" head tube isn't all that short - if you meant a 5" steerer tube, that's another story.

In my experience, employing a machine shop to shorten a stem is massive overkill (unless you own the machine shop). It can be done easily, cheaply and quickly using a hacksaw and a file or two. The only real issue is finding or modifying a bolt and/or wedge/cone that suits, but this shouldn't be difficult either, and your LBS should have something kicking around.


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

Head tube or steerer? Both. Remember, this is a 48cm frame. The HT is 4" and the steerer maybe 4 3/8 and since it doesn't go above the headset. When you consider the stem is supposed to have at least 2" inside the steerer then you just don't have a lot to work with until you hit the butted section of the head tube. I did have a machine shop cut the stem yesterday but alas...it is still too long. I'm trying to get the stem height even with the saddle, but that may not happen.

Sigh...the irritations of being on the short side.


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## FBinNY (Jan 24, 2009)

hawker12 said:


> Head tube or steerer? Both. Remember, this is a 48cm frame. The HT is 4" and the steerer maybe 4 3/8 and since it doesn't go above the headset. ... I'm trying to get the stem height even with the saddle, but that may not happen.
> 
> Sigh...the irritations of being on the short side.


As suggested, cutting the stem yet shorter might be your answer, though I can't fathom why you didn't cut it all the way the first time around. That said, from your description of the minimum stem height it seems like your frame may be on the large size for you, since on a correctly fitted frame the saddle would be more than 5" above the top tube.

If you can't get this to fit you correctly, one option might be to find a fork and change over to a threadless system which would allow a level stem (17 degree) about 2" above the top tube. Short frames benefit from the threadless system because it eliminates the steerer butt from being a factor in minimum stem height.

The other thing to consider next time you're shopping for a bike is smaller wheels. This opens up the options in terms of frame geometry, compared to 700c with which short frames tend to be too long to allow front wheel clearance.

I realize that new frame or fork is a pricey option compared to trimming the stem, but before spending any more either way, I'd make some careful measurements and what it will take, or if it's even possible to get this bike to fit correctly.


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## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

^ +1

A threadless headset will be a little shorter, and you could also potentially use an inverted "high rise" (35 degrees or so) stem to get the bars down as well. Like FB said though, if you need everything so low chances are the frame is too short horizontally to fit and handle properly unless you have very short legs proportionally. (I can sympathise if this is the case as I'm currently trying to find a new frame with an extra long top tube and front centre, but in ~55cm, not 48cm.)


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## Bill Bikie (Jul 24, 2010)

brucew said:


> In my case, it was an out-of-spec steerer tube on the fork.
> 
> I bought a bike with an Easton EC-30 fork. The headset was a little notchy, so I took it to the LBS to have a new one installed. They had to _drive_ out the quill-to-threadless stem adapter. It would not go back in, nor would any other quill stem or adapter we tried, even after honing the inside of the steerer.
> 
> I took the bike and a new quill-to-threadless adapter to a friend who has a lathe. He took either 1/1000" or 2/1000" (I don't recall) off the stem adapter and its wedge. Works just a charm now. I coated the thing in anti-seize and it popped right in. It adjusts up and down just like it's supposed to.


Crocus cloth would take it down eventually too. Just wrap it around the adapter and...you know.


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## satanas (Nov 8, 2002)

^ There's no easy way to fix undersze steerers, but perhaps the best soluton is to use an adjustable reamer. We had to do this on a batch of French diameter (22.0 not 22.2mm) Columbus steerers supplied in error ex-Italy many years ago. Extremely tedious but 100% successful.


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