# Gutless Performance by LIGGETT!



## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

I watched OLN's Tour preview last night, and could not believe the way their team tiptoed around the expultion of the Operation Peurto riders. Phil Liggett repeatedly stated that these riders were not guilty of anything, especially doping, and that all they are accused of is having there name on a piece of paper in Spain! Huhhh? Never mind that the paper documents blood transfusions, and comes complete with blood samples, etc. Liggett even went as far as to say of Ullrich, " look how innocent he looks", and " he's only guilty of knowing bad people" followed by the classic " there are lots of bad doctors in Spain". Al Trautwig was the only OLN member to pose legitimate questions, which were lamely swept under the table by Phil and his gang. Just as its time to get rid of riders and directors who support doping, its time to get rid of Liggett, the great doping appologist.


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## KenB (Jul 28, 2004)

Nothing like giving people their day in court, eh?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Fignon's Barber said:


> the great doping appologist.


SPOILER: from pre-race coverage

"[if they are doping] then good ridance"


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## KenB (Jul 28, 2004)

Room 1201 said:


> SPOILER: from pre-race coverage
> 
> "[if they are doping] then good ridance"


And I think he said "forever," too. And also, if they're innocent, that "a great injustice has been done."


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

KenB said:


> Nothing like giving people their day in court, eh?


 Not the point. As a journalist, they have the responsibility to report all the facts and let the audience form there own opinion. They skirted the facts, downplayed the contents of the report, skipped the fact that the german head of anti-doping challenged Ullrich to submit one lock of his hair and they'd prove if the transfused blood was his through DNA testing in 2 hours ( he declined). I could go on and on. All they could come up with was, " there are alot of bad doctors in spain"? Last I heard, Ullrich lives in Switzerland, and would have to willingly travel to spain to meet these people. They made it seem like Ullrich was walking down to his local 7eleven, and was pulled down the back alley by some "bad" spanish doctors. Sorry to interupt your Tour, now go back to your tv and believe everything that Liggett tells you.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Room 1201 said:


> SPOILER: from pre-race coverage
> 
> "[if they are doping] then good ridance"


Oh, now you have ruined it! I was taping the show to watch it later!!! Spoiler!
(just kidding)


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _As a journalist, they have the responsibility to report all the facts and let the audience form there own opinion. _


Journalists don't have "the responsibility to report all the facts." They're only responsible to their employers for snaring as many readers, listeners or viewers as possible. In view of that, you've got to give Liggett a lot credit to step lightly. 

As has been said by others, this whole sordid affair is played out like a reversal of the legal principles most of us like to believe in: there's an accusation, followed by the instruction to the accused to prove his innocence. While this might be the way of the Tour, it's a strange notion to those brought up with the US or UK legal system. Liggett's restrained comments reflect this feeling.


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## T-shirt (Aug 15, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Oh, now you have ruined it! I was taping the show to watch it later!!! Spoiler!
> (just kidding)


 That's a good thing, because they're only showing it like five more times today.


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## ringroadwarrior (Dec 8, 2002)

*Phil did/said what he should have..*

and also said that if there are guilty the sport is better off without them. BUT, just like he said noone is guilty yet.
I would be happy to not hear another thing about for the next 22 days. Concentrate on the race and the riders who are taking on the toughest sporting event in the world.


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## TylerDurden (Jan 28, 2006)

i like how liggett says how if they were doping may they never come back, then when david millar appears, all they can do is make excuses for him and instantly forgive him (hmm, maybe cause he's a brit?). i guess it's back to the extensive focus on millar no matter how bad he's sucking it up.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

TylerDurden said:


> i like how liggett says how if they were doping may they never come back, then when david millar appears, all they can do is make excuses for him and instantly forgive him (hmm, maybe cause he's a brit?). i guess it's back to the extensive focus on millar no matter how bad he's sucking it up.


noticed that too, it made no sense. nor did the repeated claims that Jan had been "smoking in the boys room"(wtf?) and "associating with the wrong people"(paraphrasing there), thus his expulsion. Im pretty confident they've got more on jan than just a poor choice of acquaintances.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Phil is there to call the race. If you want investigative reporting, give Geraldo Rivera a call.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

The one thing you can say about Millar is that he took his punishment like a man. He didn't claim he was innocent, or the tests were faulty, or he ate a laced burrito. He admitted everything and gave up his rainbow jersey. I can't say I'm his biggest fan, but he sure stands in contrast to most of the other dopers who get caught.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

*Yes Yes*

Let do hash and re hash the same damn stuff over and over. Actually your right Ligett is going light on the ejections but hes not a journalist hes a commenator .. but I am not tuning into to hear about that doping crap over and over again (yes I am awear it happens - not denying that) I am more interested in the race - sorry your not, perhaps you could find something else to watch. Also they have not be found guilty of anything yet the case has to be proved in court not just in your my minds.




Fignon's Barber said:
 

> Not the point. As a journalist, they have the responsibility to report all the facts and let the audience form there own opinion. They skirted the facts, downplayed the contents of the report, skipped the fact that the german head of anti-doping challenged Ullrich to submit one lock of his hair and they'd prove if the transfused blood was his through DNA testing in 2 hours ( he declined). I could go on and on. All they could come up with was, " there are alot of bad doctors in spain"? Last I heard, Ullrich lives in Switzerland, and would have to willingly travel to spain to meet these people. They made it seem like Ullrich was walking down to his local 7eleven, and was pulled down the back alley by some "bad" spanish doctors. Sorry to interupt your Tour, now go back to your tv and believe everything that Liggett tells you.


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## BigFatOne (Jun 29, 2006)

*Tell them what they want to hear*



Fignon's Barber said:


> Liggett even went as far as to say of Ullrich, " look how innocent he looks", and " he's only guilty of knowing bad people" followed by the classic " there are lots of bad doctors in Spain". .


Sometimes people say things they don't believe in to get what they want. OLN wants viewers for the good, clean sport of cycling.

I did the same thing last night...Me and my wing man Jimmy were out on the town and we met 2 chicks, one a total pig...mustache, big gut, the works... and the other a hottie. I start telling Jimmy how the pig is pretty cute and I think she digs him, this gives me a clear path to close the deal with the hottie. Like a good wing man Jimmy jumped on the grenade

OLN has been doing this for the last 7 years, trying to convince us that Lance is not a doping jerk


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## Trevor! (Feb 28, 2004)

What a load of rubbish.

Phil was fine.

I think all the Journalists (including a few Americans) have done a fine job in ensuring the focus remains on calling the race and focusing on the Tour at hand.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Let do hash and re hash the same damn stuff over and over. Actually your right Ligett is going light on the ejections but hes not a journalist hes a commenator .. but I am not tuning into to hear about that doping crap over and over again (yes I am awear it happens - not denying that) I am more interested in the race - sorry your not, perhaps you could find something else to watch.


.


I'm sure that if you asked any "commenator", he or she would be the first to tell you that they are, in fact, journalists. I am going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you are not a journalist. Finally, where did you come up with the stupid assumption that I'm not interested in the race?


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## snowman3 (Jul 20, 2002)

TylerDurden said:


> i like how liggett says how if they were doping may they never come back, then when david millar appears, all they can do is make excuses for him and instantly forgive him (hmm, maybe cause he's a brit?). i guess it's back to the extensive focus on millar no matter how bad he's sucking it up.


Yeah, I was a bit disappointed in Phil, but I understand his position. He's a cordial commentator, not a radical left/right evangalist. So Phil had to play to all viewpoints. Acknoledge everything but not support anything too strongly. I was happy that he said, "if they are cheats, then good riddance". I was happy that DaveM took his punishment like a man. But I think Phil went pretty soft on DaveM.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

yeah I am sure they would say they were journalists, but they are not investigative journalists but really they are paided to commentate on a event and usually with a tone in mind (in this case cycling in a positive light with a heavy Lance armstong over tone). Actually I have been a journalist, have you. Lastly you seem to want lots of coverage/commentary of a doping scandle instead of the race thats pretty stupid assumtion of yours, most of us are more interested in the race its self.



Fignon's Barber said:


> .
> 
> 
> I'm sure that if you asked any "commenator", he or she would be the first to tell you that they are, in fact, journalists. I am going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you are not a journalist. Finally, where did you come up with the stupid assumption that I'm not interested in the race?


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## elviento (Mar 24, 2002)

I could come up with a list saying "Fignon's Barber" right now, or even a bag of blood in my frige with the same name on the label.



Fignon's Barber said:


> I watched OLN's Tour preview last night, and could not believe the way their team tiptoed around the expultion of the Operation Peurto riders. Phil Liggett repeatedly stated that these riders were not guilty of anything, especially doping, and that all they are accused of is having there name on a piece of paper in Spain! Huhhh? Never mind that the paper documents blood transfusions, and comes complete with blood samples, etc. Liggett even went as far as to say of Ullrich, " look how innocent he looks", and " he's only guilty of knowing bad people" followed by the classic " there are lots of bad doctors in Spain". Al Trautwig was the only OLN member to pose legitimate questions, which were lamely swept under the table by Phil and his gang. Just as its time to get rid of riders and directors who support doping, its time to get rid of Liggett, the great doping appologist.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Phil Ligget is a nice man. Phil Ligget loves cycling. Repeat 10x.

He is caught in the middle of an ugly era in our sport. I think he is trying to preserve the stature of cycling as best he can.

fc


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## JohnnyCat (Jan 22, 2004)

Phil is a good guy, and is saying what he has to say to protect the kiddies. It pisses me off that he can't say things like, "This doesn't look good for Armstrong', "I think we need to rethink this drug free policy; Sadly it seems everybody dopes and its a crap shoot who gets tossed", "Either bust the riders by a legitimate test or the hell with sustance bans."


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> Actually I have been a journalist, have you. Lastly you seem to want lots of coverage/commentary of a doping scandle instead of the race thats pretty stupid assumtion of yours, most of us are more interested in the race its self.



LOL. You have proven my point. I rest my case.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

JohnnyCat said:


> Phil is a good guy, and is saying what he has to say to protect the kiddies. It pisses me off that he can't say things like, "This doesn't look good for Armstrong', "I think we need to rethink this drug free policy; Sadly it seems everybody dopes and its a crap shoot who gets tossed", "Either bust the riders by a legitimate test or the hell with sustance bans."


They never editorialize on controversial topics. They try to stay as neutral as they can (while of course rooting for every english-speaking rider). 

Their job is to cover the Tour, and riders in the tour. They want to attract viewership, not scare it away. The doping story is reported briefly, then we go back to the Tour. This is the way it's supposed to be - as opposed to other media outlets who don't give a damn when something exciting happens in the Tour (cycling-wise), but will run the story 24-7 if there's a sniff of a scandal. This tabloids-like mentality is what creates the impression that cycling is all about doping.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

elviento said:


> I could come up with a list saying "Fignon's Barber" right now, or even a bag of blood in my frige with the same name on the label.


 I know what you mean, and if that 's all there was on these guys, I'd agree with where you're going. And that was my original point: for the casual fan, if you only went with what they originally gave you, you would form your opinion based on those ideas. But the contents contained much more: video, matched blood samples, faxes,cashed checks, text messages from the giro,etc. I'm sure the OLN guys have read these reports, and the "smoking in the boys room" excuse doesn't cut it. I agree with not spending alot of air time on this latest scandal, but call it like it is. I took offense to the " all they're guilty of is knowing bad people" mantra.
For the record, I love cycling , love the Tour, but have no tolerance for liers and cheats. Judging by the recent comments from Pat McQuaid,Patrick Lefevre, the heads of pro cycling feel the same.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*What?????*



Fignon's Barber said:


> I watched OLN's Tour preview last night, and could not believe the way their team tiptoed around the expultion of the Operation Peurto riders. Phil Liggett repeatedly stated that these riders were not guilty of anything, especially doping, and that all they are accused of is having there name on a piece of paper in Spain! Huhhh? Never mind that the paper documents blood transfusions, and comes complete with blood samples, etc. Liggett even went as far as to say of Ullrich, " look how innocent he looks", and " he's only guilty of knowing bad people" followed by the classic " there are lots of bad doctors in Spain". Al Trautwig was the only OLN member to pose legitimate questions, which were lamely swept under the table by Phil and his gang. Just as its time to get rid of riders and directors who support doping, its time to get rid of Liggett, the great doping appologist.


Phil and the gang have a combined cycling experience that puts them in THE PLACE to have a say on this issue. Trautwig was beklieving Roll about portable urine devices that riders wear under their Jerseys as Bob Roll was just busting his chops. I cant recall laughing harder than that in quite a while Trautwig has grown into a semi cogent cycling commentator. He is LIGHT YEARS away from where he was 2 years ago.

That being said, both Phil and Paul have said that its time to move on and cover the Tour. BRAVO for them. The TDF will be there with or without these folks joicing it up or getting caught in a scandal. Trautwig has ZERO credibility when commenting on cycling. He has NO clue as to what the sport was nd where it will go. It was a relief and a joy to see the TDF covered and not the actions of some lets face it, fools. If you want Doping coverage, get a Doper Licve channel and go nuts. Until then, lets watch a race.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

JohnnyCat said:


> Phil is a good guy, and is saying what he has to say to protect the kiddies. It pisses me off that he can't say things like, "This doesn't look good for Armstrong', "I think we need to rethink this drug free policy; Sadly it seems everybody dopes and its a crap shoot who gets tossed", "Either bust the riders by a legitimate test or the hell with sustance bans."


Very well said. Riders at the top level feel they cannot compete without doping because their rivals do it undetected. Then it IS a crap shoot who gets tossed.

francois


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

*Liggett is a professional journalist*



32and3cross said:


> Let do hash and re hash the same damn stuff over and over. Actually your right Ligett is going light on the ejections but hes not a journalist hes a commenator .. but I am not tuning into to hear about that doping crap over and over again (yes I am awear it happens - not denying that) I am more interested in the race - sorry your not, perhaps you could find something else to watch. Also they have not be found guilty of anything yet the case has to be proved in court not just in your my minds.


Aside from just using his voice, Phil writes. He was the international editor for Cycle Sport, and has lots of real journalism experience. But he's just a bit bias which can one be expected. He's a former racer, friends with many pros, and team managers. He can't be expected to neutral. If he wasn't bias, he probably wouldn't have followed the tour for 35 years and gained all the knowlege that he shares. For Tour coverage, I'd rather enjoy the old bias veteran rather than a dead-neutral bystander. 
Like you, I'm glad that OLN decided to give priority to covering the actual race, and play down the doping. That's a seperate story. They easily could have chosen to play up the doping story to get more ratings. They did mention it and they gave out about as much information as anyone in here knows. 
This Tour is so wide open. There's no shortage of race-related stories to provide. The doping story is iimportant, directly affected the Tour. But as Phil correctly reiterates, it's *still* under investigation, and all riders should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. Nobody in this forum has read the actual documents. None of us has seen the actual lists. None of us knows the exact status of the investigation. Fans shouldn't be expected to bury their heads in the sand and deny a problem exists. I
The final verdict will come eventually and there's nothing we can do to make it come sooner. Meanwhile, the race is going on. It will end before the investigation so we should be allowed to forcus our attention on that while it lasts. 
Sorry for all the impatient people who want to skip the formalities of due process, but you'll just have to wait till the final verdict to wag your toungue, wag your finger, and feel giddy because someone elses favorite rider made a mistake.


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