# 2012 Hollowgram cranks on a 2014 synapse carbon?



## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

So, I had the lbs install a 2012 Hollowgram on my wife's 2014 carbon synapse. I was told I needed to buy a 109 spindle in Order for it to install correctly.
Got the bike and it sat in the garage for about two weeks. This morning my wife decided to take the bike for a ride. We did not get two blocks from the house when I noticed that the cranks looked like they were moving side to side. We pulled over and noticed the cranks were lose. Went back home and to my surprise, I was able to remove the drive side arm by hand . Tried tighning it, but, I could not go very far on the threads. I saw the sisl2 spacer between the cranks and the frame. The spacer is keeping me from tighning the cranks all the way. Removed the spacer and everything seems to fit better. Questioners are:
1) is the SL crank supposed to be installed without that spacer on the drive side?
2) if so, will that create issues with the chain line?
3) I did not check to see if they installed the correct spindle. As I was typing this, I was checking the bag of extra parts I got from the lbs and I realized the spindle in the bag is the 109 mm spindle.

Needless to say, I do not want to o back to the lbs until I figure this out on my own. I do not want these monkeys to touch the bike any more. I will deal itch them later.
I am hoping you guys can help.


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## Diopena1 (Jul 21, 2011)

LBS should've followed proper instructions... I have heard that sometimes extra spacers are needed to compensate. 
I have a 2011 Supersix HM, and had 2013 cranks (SISL2's) installed, they used some spacers (forgot how many really), and haven't had an issue, it's been about 3000 miles, and still no play, no clicking, no problems..
https://icimg.com/sisl2_techdoc.jpg


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## trauma-md (Feb 6, 2004)

First thing is that if you remove the crank arm, the spindle width will be printed on the face side of the splines. The 109 mm spindle also has holes located there as well, in contrast to the previous 104mm road spindle.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!! The Synapse is BB30A (73mm BB shell) and thus uses the more narrow BB30A spacer as shown in the above cited diagram. 

Also, as shown, the spacers and wave washer assembly is now on the non drive side.

As long as you make sure the spindle is the correct 109mm and the BB30A spacer is what you are using, then it should fit fine.

I have used previous SL crank arms with this set up without any problem.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Also worth noting, the 2012 (and older) Hollowgram SL non-driveside arm has a different geometry compared to the 2013 and up SI or SISL2. Since the spindle back then was 5mm shorter on the non-driveside, that arm has 5mm more in offset, meaning that, mounted on the 109 spindle with the correct spacers, your left foot will be 5mm further from the center of the bike compared to your right foot. So as trauma-md said, a 109mm spindle and appropriate spacers will still work with older arms but with a slightly asymetric and wider q-factor.

You can correct this by moving your left side cleats 5mm in... Could be annoying if you use the same shoes on a few bikes though.

You could also add an additional 2.5mm spacer on the driveside and taking it away from the non-driveside, it would center both feet but then you'll have to re-adjust your front derailleur and your chainline will suffer.

Personally, as I use a Stages powermeter (which is based on the newer geometry and 109 spindle) and swap it between a few bikes, I changed my older Hollowgram SL cranksets to 109mm spindles and use newer non-driveside 3D-forged SI arms (keeping the SL driveside as it's lighter than the 3D-forged SI).


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

thank you for all the feedback guys
here is what i have done so far:

1) verified that i have the 109 mm spindle. i do.
2) removed some spacers that were on the drive side as well the wave washer to the nondrive side.
3) insalled everything back.

New questios:
1) wave washer is completely flat againt bearing shield. is that ok?
2) have 2ea .5 shims on the non-drive side and my drive line seems off. i need to move the chainrings towards the outside. do i install another .5 shim on the non-drive side?
3) are the cranks supposed to spin freely ? if i spin the cranks, they might turn about 1/4 to a 1/3 revolution. is that nomal? 

thank you


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

veloci1 said:


> thank you for all the feedback guys
> here is what i have done so far:
> 
> 1) verified that i have the 109 mm spindle. i do.
> ...


Just follow the graphic Diopena1 linked to, or download the manual. Basically, once the bearings are installed and have the bearing sheilds (graphics facing out), with the 109mm spindle, you need a single drive-side specific spacer next to the crank spider/chainrings, it's a black 2.5mm spacer and should be marked 'drive-side' (it seems you are now missing that one?), nothing else goes on the drive-side, unlike the pre-2014 Hollowgrams, the drive-side is now fixed and all the adjustment and fine tuning is now done on the non-drive-side. So on a Synapse 2014+, non-driveside needs (after the bearing and it's sheild) the wave-washer, the BB30A spacer and thin shims between these to get proper bearing preload. If the wave washer is completely flat, you have too many thin washers and might be squeezing the bearings too much (their lifespan will shorten and will be harder to turn), take one or two off (in some cases, none at all could be needed).

As for spinning freely, it's normal that it doesn't spin to infinity, but it should be very easy to turn. 1/4-1/3 of a turn might be a little slow, could be caused by the fact your bearings are too tight (flat wave-washer) but new cartridge bearings with good seals tend to not spin all that long, seals drag a little and freshly packed grease in bearings slows things up but with milage, they often spin more easily.


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

thank you for the quick reply. i forgot to mention that the drive side spacer (2.5 mm) was also installed. so, if i understand you correctly, i need to remove spacers (from the nd side) until the wave washer is not completely flat against the bearing shield when torqued down, correct?
if so, what would the best way to move the chainring out a little be?
or beeter yet, what is the best way to check if the drive line is aligned?

sorry for all the questions. i am very mechanically inclined and i can fix about anything once i understand it and know how things are supposed to work.

i really do not want to take this to a bike shop. it seems like with the correct info, i should be able to get this going.

you guys have a lot of expirence and i am trying to use it.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

veloci1 said:


> thank you for the quick reply. i forgot to mention that the drive side spacer (2.5 mm) was also installed. so, if i understand you correctly, i need to remove spacers (from the nd side) until the wave washer is not completely flat against the bearing shield when torqued down, correct?


Correct.



veloci1 said:


> if so, what would the best way to move the chainring out a little be?
> or beeter yet, what is the best way to check if the drive line is aligned?
> 
> sorry for all the questions. i am very mechanically inclined and i can fix about anything once i understand it and know how things are supposed to work.
> ...


What makes you think the chainline is off? With that 2.5mm spacer, it should be good unless you have some weirdo offset chainrings...


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## veloci1 (Nov 29, 2005)

i just found this chart, it might help others:
https://icimg.com/hollowgramchart.jpg

i believe the chainline is off because if i am in the 34 CR and 13 or higher (12,11) cogs, the chain hits the chain ring and makes an annoying sound . i do not have this issue with my 2014 Synapse, though, i have SiSl2 cranks. chainline might be ok if i make sure my wife does not get on those gears. 

i will set the cranks based on the recommnedations here and i will report back tomorrow.

thank you all for the feedback.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

veloci1 said:


> i just found this chart, it might help others:
> https://icimg.com/hollowgramchart.jpg
> 
> i believe the chainline is off because if i am in the 34 CR and 13 or higher (12,11) cogs, the chain hits the chain ring and makes an annoying sound . i do not have this issue with my 2014 Synapse, though, i have SiSl2 cranks. chainline might be ok if i make sure my wife does not get on those gears.
> ...


Personally, I'd rather have a shorter chainline that will allow the use of the whole cassette while on the big ring than the opposite. Having the rings closer to the frame means riding on the big ring and biggest few cogs is not twisting the chain as much, and they're much more useful gears. Small ring combined with the smallest few cogs are the worst gear combos and there is no point in using them IMO. On top of twisting the chain and having the issue you have (which for many groupsets is considered normal), the chain also has the least amount of tension so it can bounce around, drop, slip more easily than on better, more efficient gear selections.

I almost always stay on the big ring, use the whole cassette, when climbs get too steep for too long, then I drop on the small ring... but as soon as I upshift to the 3rd-4th-maybe 5th cogs (counting from the biggest) on the back, time to shift back up on the big ring.

When SRAM were first developping road groups and started sponsoring teams, the pros at Saulnier-Duval thought SRAM Red was a joke as the first ones had a trim only for the small ring and none on the big ring... it made no sense as they could not use the whole cassette without rub in the big ring. Even if now SRAM are calling their groups 22 as in 22 usable gears, it's a marketing thing even if in most case it 'can' work fine. Small ring, small cogs is still useless gears IMO.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

What was Cannondale's goal of changing the spindle to 109mm and then modifying the off-set of the crank arms in the first place?


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

metoou2 said:


> What was Cannondale's goal of changing the spindle to 109mm and then modifying the off-set of the crank arms in the first place?


It allowed them to have the Synapse's wider, stiffer 73mm wide BB shell (5mm wider on the non-driveside) while keeping the same q-factor and the same chainline. BB30A will probably make it's way on the revised/refreshed/replaced Evo, the difference in stiffness in the BB area is noticable.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks Dan,
makes sense. When the new gen Hollowgrams and the 109 spindle came out I wasn't aware that they were also widening the Synapse btm brkt shell to (73)mm.

So..................in that same time frame when the EVO came out along with the new gen Hollowgrams the EVO's were obviously shipping with the new gen Hollowgrams. Since the EVO had and still has the traditional (68)mm shell, which spindle was and still is shipping with the EVO? 

I'm stuck in 2011. My ride is a 2011 SSix Hi-M with the last gen SiSl Hollowgrams.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

metoou2 said:


> Thanks Dan,
> makes sense. When the new gen Hollowgrams and the 109 spindle came out I wasn't aware that they were also widening the Synapse btm brkt shell to (73)mm.
> 
> So..................in that same time frame when the EVO came out along with the new gen Hollowgrams the EVO's were obviously shipping with the new gen Hollowgrams. Since the EVO had and still has the traditional (68)mm shell, which spindle was and still is shipping with the EVO?
> ...


The 109mm 'shoulder-less' spindle also simplify things, the same spindle is used on 68 and 73mm frames, the only difference is in the installation. There is a non-driveside spacer to use the crankset on 68mm frames (Evo, CAAD10, SuperX, older Synapse...) and a narrower spacer to use on 73mm frames (2014+ Synapse... and future frames). Every Hollowgrams now have that new non-driveside arm geometry and use the 109mm spindle: the SISL2 and the 3D froged SI and these BB come with the two spacers so they can be installed on any BB30, PF30 or BB30A frames.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks Dan, we can always count on you for straightforward, factual info. 

Now to do something about my dang avatar.............I really like Mr. Sagan but he swung his leg over a Specialized and I bleed green. Don't blame him one bit, for the cash he got I'm sure he would have gotten on a Huffy.


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