# Moots vs Serotta vs IF



## CARBON110

Last question before purchase. I found IFs Ti to be kind of sloppy and not as strong as Serottas when viewing frames. Can anyone compare these to a Moots Pyschlo SL titanium??


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## 633

CARBON110 said:


> Last question before purchase. I found IFs Ti to be kind of sloppy and not as strong as Serottas when viewing frames. Can anyone compare these to a Moots Pyschlo SL titanium??


Among Serotta, IF and Moots, I would take the Moots, but that's mainly because I think they make frames that are just dead sexy. My friend with a Serotta loves it. No personal experience with IF.

Not the question you asked, I know, but did you take a look at Airborne's Carpe Diem? I don't do the 'cross thing, but I've been so impressed with my Zeppelin (3/2.5 road) that I just bought their top-of-the-line Torch (6/4 road). Great ride, beautiful welds, and I don't flex the Zeppelin even at 205 lbs.


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## donkekus

Um...

don't forget SEVEN. Go to the SS forum on MTBR and ask Mike, he has the nicest.


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## cxwrench

*how can you tell*



CARBON110 said:


> Last question before purchase. I found IFs Ti to be kind of sloppy and not as strong as Serottas when viewing frames. Can anyone compare these to a Moots Pyschlo SL titanium??


how strong a frame is by "viewing" it? and, as far as i'm concerned, tyler's welding is as good if not better than anything i've ever seen. period. and don't forget, if you're racing, order two...


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## CARBON110

*lol*

cxrench, I held and played on both the IF and S. and thought that S. was much more stiff with smoother welds thats all. I love the IFs espcially their prices. Sevens are amazing but way to costly $4+ for a frame? I have some negotiating room on all but the Serotta

This Ti will be my training bike and back up so I don't have to worry about the Salt when I am in the North East and I can ride it in the winter snow. 

Moots seem to be $1000 less although I have not gotten a price for the upgraded Reynolds SL PX. I am going to see one next week in NC after I drop by crossworld in B-town =)


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## Phat&SlowVelo

*Of the 3 you mentioned:*

Moots first, IF Second, Serotta last. 
Carl Strong builds and awesome cross from Ti, I would choose Carl over Serotta. 
Don't forget to post a pic of the bike you end up with!


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## atpjunkie

*Moots*

beautiful ti frames, welds soooo yummy. personally would be my choice. I'd opt for the Ti fork, weight diff is minimal w/ CF and will be more plush. Check out Gully's race bikes, ran Ti forks, he said ride was superior to CF and weight diff was negligible.


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## atpjunkie

*C110 what size are you?*

another sweet rig that is affordable or the Morati's. Great Czech Ti work.


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## CARBON110

*apt*

Aptjunkie,

Thanks, I think I am going to go with Moots. The IF flexed alot more than the Serr. but I like the price and look of Moots better. You really think the Ti fork is close in weight to like Alpha Q? 

Where do I find Gullys' bike? In the cross pics? I haven't had time to zip through them lately

Any review of the SL ti vs the regular? I found out not long ago that the Trek Madone SSL is 45 grams lighter than a regular Madone LOL So if that is the case here.......

Many thanks!


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## euro-trash

CARBON110 said:


> Aptjunkie,
> 
> Thanks, I think I am going to go with Moots. The IF flexed alot more than the Serr. but I like the price and look of Moots better. You really think the Ti fork is close in weight to like Alpha Q?
> 
> Where do I find Gullys' bike? In the cross pics? I haven't had time to zip through them lately
> 
> Any review of the SL ti vs the regular? I found out not long ago that the Trek Madone SSL is 45 grams lighter than a regular Madone LOL So if that is the case here.......
> 
> Many thanks!


Call Moots. They really will give you a straight answer.


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## atpjunkie

*go to cyclingnews.com*

and look through the racer bike archives. when he was racing for his 'own team' he was running redline frames and those soviet made Sibex ti forks. I did a weight check a while ago, the Sibex Ti fork was sub 600 grams so the issue becomes, shouldering weight vs overall ride comfort.


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## Jed Peters

CARBON110 said:


> Aptjunkie,
> 
> Thanks, I think I am going to go with Moots. The IF flexed alot more than the Serr. but I like the price and look of Moots better. !


Poor analysis.

When you buy a custom bike like an IF or a Serotta, they build it how you want it, i.e. custom.


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## CARBON110

*done*

Done! Thanks! I checked cyclingnews and found these pics. I called Moots and spoke to a guy who has the exact set up I had in mind. The SL is about 200-230 grams lighter and about 600$ more. So that's half a pound. 

I really am impressed with the Alphas cross forks so I think between the seatpost, the ti and the wheels it will be plenty comfy for 60 minutes....not to mention those 3 hour "screwing around on my cross bike" days when your GF asks what you did today =))


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## CARBON110

*hmmm*

exactly how is this poor analysis? I think Moots does custom as well. But custom doesn't change the quality of material. Having checked out several Serr. and IF here (2 dealers) the IF really is nice, but not as nice as Serr. in my opinion. But it is only my opinion, having stressed both bikes I found IFs as nice as they are, not to be as nice as others that's all..........


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## Jed Peters

CARBON110 said:


> exactly how is this poor analysis? I think Moots does custom as well. But custom doesn't change the quality of material. Having checked out several Serr. and IF here (2 dealers) the IF really is nice, but not as nice as Serr. in my opinion. But it is only my opinion, having stressed both bikes I found IFs as nice as they are, not to be as nice as others that's all..........


IF and Moots use the same tubing. And I'd bet a buck serotta is the same, only they call it something different.

They're all the same, and all the bikes mentioned are going to be as nice as the other ones.

You're more concerned with status and name anyhow, so what are you worried about re: performance?


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## CARBON110

*oh ok*

Jeb-""You're more concerned with status and name anyhow, so what are you worried about re: performance?""

whew, for a minute there I thought you had me all wrong! =D

By the way, if they all use the same material, how come the frames, weights, feel, look, is so different? Must be the geometry right....I was under the impression how they construct them makes a difference and that is why there are so many different companies

This board needs some serious levity


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## brewser123

I weigh 200 pounds and raced on an IF without feeling sloppy or Flexy.

I am curious what componentry was included on the "Sloppy" and "Flexy" bike compared to the components on the non sloppy bike. Wheels, stems, cranks and tires can give a sense of flex as well as the frame. Also improperly fitted bikes can give the same perception. The frame builders will even have differences in BB height and this will play into the feel.
As you can see from the Moots pictures, they have VERY different wheels and Stems. The top bike with the Reynolds might feel a bit more whippy than the bike with the Mavics. Plus the bottom pic has the soft tail. So you would probably end up with a different feel between those two frames from the same maker.

But then again, the tubing is pretty much the same and what feels right to some will not always feel right to others. 

They are all really nice looking bikes and any will work fine.


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## Jed Peters

CARBON110 said:


> By the way, if they all use the same material, how come the frames, weights, feel, look, is so different? Must be the geometry right....I was under the impression how they construct them makes a difference and that is why there are so many different companies


When you get a custom frame built, they use tubing to your specifications (weight, riding style, etc) and build the bike FOR YOU.

It's like buying a custom suit made for you vs one off the rack.

Oh yeah, geometry is different too.

And finish is how the bikes are finished. But of the above they are all equally skilled.


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## Mosovich

*Holy cow...*

I'm just p*&^^$$ off that this will be a back up bike or spare. I'll tell you what, I'll give you my "racing" bike to use as a spare and you can give me your "spare" bike to use as my racing bike.


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## kam

check out;

www.desalvocycles.com
www.kishbike.com
www.strongframes.com

all three are awesome builders who work with ti. they can build you a bike as good as a moots/serotta/if and maybe for less cheddar.


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## Timgo2

I second that. If that's the back up bike, what's the race bike?


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## Nev

*Ti bikes*

C110 have you owned and ridden a TI bike for an extended period. I happen to be lucky enough to have quite a few TI bikes to base my opinion from. 
Litespeed - had two and would never have another,
Seven - own four and would get another, really custom so you get what you want,
IF(Phil Wood) - own three and will get two more soon, really custom so again you get exactly what you order,
Moots - had one but their custom options (back three years ago) weren't really custom tubes but just sizes. Beautiful to look at but not as good to ride as IF or Seven,
Merlin - had a road bike that I wish i still had, but the new Merlins don't seem to be as nice.
Have had Kona , Norco and Rocky Mountain TI mountain bikes as well , all nice but way behind IF and Seven.
BTW I'm 6'3" and 260 so they can build a non flexy bike for anyone.
Hope this helps.


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## CARBON110

*Ncie*

Kam and Nev thank you very very much for your posts. Kam I am looking into those sites

finally someone with actual experience to compare who knows all Ti isn't the same. I am similar in my bike purchases as you are in that we tend to stick to what we love judging by performance practical application and material. This will be my first Ti bike but I have spent some time on the above. I am a carbon freak so I am pretty excited for Ti and I am certain it will live up to the hype

I think Seven is the king of Ti but for 4k+ a frame I am left thinking it isn't that much nicer than IF and Moots. So that leaves out Serrotta since I would get a Seven over a Serr. any day and they cost the same

. I am heading to NC and I am in good with a local seven dealer so I will see how far I can push back the price but I can get the Moots SL for like 25-2600$ Nearly half a Seven if I am right in thinking of the se7en prices. 

I like the IFs and Phil Wood rox! I just thought they were alot more flexy on the frames I banged around on. The Serr. was like concrete, just didn't budge at all. Total power transfer. The IF didn't have the same feel

Nev feel free to elaborate if you have the time on the suttle differences and any recommendations you might have that being a first time ti buyer wouldn't pick up on. I know with carbon there is alot to look for so it must be the same for ti right?

Thanks again


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## Nev

*Prices*

I think you may have the pricing a bit off. I'm in Vancouver Canada and all three IF, Moots and Seven were within $100-200 of each other.
IF and Seven both have a custom program that allows for pretty much any variable that you can come up with, if you talk with them the final product will be great.
Moots I think has changed to a more custom program so I would imagine them to be similiar now.
You are lucky if you can afford the cost of any of the three you will not disappointed.No bad bikes from these, just bad imput to get the right result. 
The main part is to come up with all the custom features you want and then work with them to get exactly what you want. 
Good luck.


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## atpjunkie

*Hey Nev*

I'm about your size. If you are ever getting rid of any of those IF or seven crossers that are too old for ya, give me a holler.


atp


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## Gripped

Timgo2 said:


> I second that. If that's the back up bike, what's the race bike?


Ridley X-NIght if I recall ...


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## Nev

atpjunkie said:


> I'm about your size. If you are ever getting rid of any of those IF or seven crossers that are too old for ya, give me a holler.
> 
> 
> atp


Sorry just the 2 CX the rest are mtb and road.


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## atpjunkie

*well like I said*

remember me when it's upgrade time! ;o)

Enjoy.


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## CARBON110

*good idea*

Nev you gave me a good idea. I think nxt time I am in VT I will take a trip up to Montreal and see if Se7en and Moots are less coin there! I know a good shop up there


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## donkekus

I can speak for Kish, beautiful. Less than Moots, etc. 

There is something about the shot peening on the IFs that I love however...


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## CFBlue

Jed Peters said:


> IF and Moots use the same tubing. And I'd bet a buck serotta is the same, only they call it something different.
> 
> They're all the same, and all the bikes mentioned are going to be as nice as the other ones.
> 
> You're more concerned with status and name anyhow, so what are you worried about re: performance?


Serotta is very white collar. IF is the old Fat City Cycles crew so they are very grassroots with the roots in mountain. Moots is very grassroots as well and roots in mountain. The welds on IF and Moots just can't be beat though and both Moots and IF have out grown there mountain division in road bikes. Primarily because they were building hardtails and most everything has gone to full sus. Not to knock on those riding Serotta and Seven, but generally its connected to status. IF and Moots are cyclists at the roots.


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