# Anyone tried both Phil Wood and Chris King hubs??



## BikeManiac (Dec 4, 2004)

I'm interested in buying the best hubs ever. It seems that Chris King and Phil Wood are the best ones. But has anyone really tried both hubs, felt their drags etc etc? What's your opinion?

I have to use the hub for road touring and not hard core freeride, downhill etc which means that I need a hub with smallest drag possible (= does this mean I'll have to look for Shimano XTR??  This means I'm especially interested in those who have tested the mentioned hubs on their road bikes.

Somewhere I read that Chris King hubs have a large drag when you turn them by hand, but it vanishes when riding, ie they are designed in a way that the drag disappears when riding. Is that true?

Lucas


----------



## Crankist (Feb 3, 2004)

BikeManiac said:


> I'm interested in buying the best hubs ever. It seems that Chris King and Phil Wood are the best ones. But has anyone really tried both hubs, felt their drags etc etc? What's your opinion?
> 
> I have to use the hub for road touring and not hard core freeride, downhill etc which means that I need a hub with smallest drag possible (= does this mean I'll have to look for Shimano XTR??  This means I'm especially interested in those who have tested the mentioned hubs on their road bikes.
> 
> ...


CK hubs are pretty well sealed, and some small drag is necessary for a better seal. It's noticable on my set when spinning on a stand. It "vanishes" when riding because it's insignificant.
If all you want is the smallest possible drag, then virtually any well-adjusted set meets your criteria - you'll never notice the difference, incl. CK.
I've never owned PW, but from all I've read, you'll be hard-pressed to find a better, more durable set for road touring.
Anyway, I suggest you find a more meaningful selection criteria than drag - it's a waste of time.


----------



## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

BikeManiac said:


> I'm interested in buying the best hubs ever. It seems that Chris King and Phil Wood are the best ones. But has anyone really tried both hubs, felt their drags etc etc? What's your opinion?
> 
> I have to use the hub for road touring and not hard core freeride, downhill etc which means that I need a hub with smallest drag possible (= does this mean I'll have to look for Shimano XTR??  This means I'm especially interested in those who have tested the mentioned hubs on their road bikes.
> 
> ...


If all you want is low drag, then get any good cup and cone hub, adjust it loose and replace it once a year. A good, well adjusted bearing set should feel "hydrolic", not free, when spun. - TF


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

You posted this on another forum and they have given you great answers there. As one poster mentioned that neither (nor does anyone) manufacture their own bearings, they have them manufactured by an outsource factory to their specs. BUT, some do not want to pay for the closer tolerences or the harder bearings that some companies like Woods specs theirs for. I do not own either of the brands you speak of, but I have know a few that rode on Woods and Chris King and no one had any compliants. I do know that Woods hubs are used a lot in touring situations because they can hold up to a lot of miles and to carrying heavy weight, but they also tend to be heavier then the King because the King is more intended for racing and not for touring thus don't need to be as beefy.


----------



## winstonc (Nov 18, 2002)

I know Chris King makes their own bearings for headsets; I believe it's true of their hubs as well.


----------



## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

winstonc said:


> I know Chris King makes their own bearings for headsets; I believe it's true of their hubs as well.


Source? I hate to doubt you, but find that very hard to believe. There is no need to do this. - TF


----------



## ottodog (Mar 26, 2004)

Phil Wood - Bullet Proof but HEAVY. Chris King - Lighter, but freehub sounds like a swarm of bee's chasing you. I would definately find one to listen to before dropping the coin. They are ungodly noisey. Since weight is not really an issue for touring, I'd personally go with the PW.


----------



## winstonc (Nov 18, 2002)

TurboTurtle said:


> Source? I hate to doubt you, but find that very hard to believe. There is no need to do this. - TF


They apparently disagree with your assessment: "Each headset was developed with every attention to detail and each part of every headset is made by us. We even go so far as to make our own sealed, cartridge style bearings - a practice unheard of in the bike industry."

http://www.chrisking.com/headsets/hds_index.html


----------



## Henry Chinaski (Feb 3, 2004)

ottodog said:


> Phil Wood - Bullet Proof but HEAVY. Chris King - Lighter, but freehub sounds like a swarm of bee's chasing you. I would definately find one to listen to before dropping the coin. They are ungodly noisey. Since weight is not really an issue for touring, I'd personally go with the PW.


Yep, that about sums it up.


----------



## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

winstonc said:


> They apparently disagree with your assessment: "Each headset was developed with every attention to detail and each part of every headset is made by us. We even go so far as to make our own sealed, cartridge style bearings - a practice unheard of in the bike industry."
> 
> http://www.chrisking.com/headsets/hds_index.html


Thanks. They are certainly right about the "unheard of." - TF


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Be careful with this*



winstonc said:


> We even go so far as to make our own sealed, cartridge style bearings - a practice unheard of in the bike industry."[/url]


The definition of "make our own bearings" is not the least bit clear. I totally doubt that they actually manufacture bearings (the round, steel or ceramic balls) and I suspect that what they really do is buy a cartridge bearing unit and modify it or buy bearings and put them in their own unit. The machining and manufacturing technology for making bearing systems is significantly challenging compared to making hubs and head sets. The economies of scale are huge as well, so making small quantities of bearings is not a good prospect for an outfit the size of CK. Just speculating, based on the realities of the manufacturing world.


----------



## wrench (Jun 15, 2004)

They really do make their own bearings for their headsets. At Interbike a few years ago I asked about it and they assured me that they manufacture the balls, races and seals of their bearings in house. That is why they can stand behind their product. It also explains a little of the proportionate cost.


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

*Kerry's right*



Kerry Irons said:


> The definition of "make our own bearings" is not the least bit clear. I totally doubt that they actually manufacture bearings (the round, steel or ceramic balls) and I suspect that what they really do is buy a cartridge bearing unit and modify it or buy bearings and put them in their own unit. The machining and manufacturing technology for making bearing systems is significantly challenging compared to making hubs and head sets. The economies of scale are huge as well, so making small quantities of bearings is not a good prospect for an outfit the size of CK. Just speculating, based on the realities of the manufacturing world.


I'm privy to the complexities of manufaturing a high quality roller or ball bearing and Chris King DOES NOT have that ability. If you saw the machinery involved you'd understand why I'm adamant about this.


----------



## frank n. beans (Apr 9, 2004)

OnTheRivet said:


> I'm privy to the complexities of manufaturing a high quality roller or ball bearing and Chris King DOES NOT have that ability. If you saw the machinery involved you'd understand why I'm adamant about this.


From "Bike" Magazine, Aug/Sept 2003:

"The most impressive features of the King operation, however, are found in the actual manufacturing process. Every Chris King component is made in-house. They machine all their bearings and shells, and do all their own heat-treating and anodizing."

For what it is worth, in the Chris King service manual for hubs, it states: "In-house design and manufacturing - 100% made by Chris King in the USA".


----------



## Stinky Hippie (Jul 19, 2002)

*They started out in the medical equipment field....*

...I'm betting they have the technology.

They are not the kind of company that is proned to exaggeration. I believe them when they say their bearings are made in house, just as I believe them when they tell me that a hub that's been out for 10 years is on back order. 






OnTheRivet said:


> I'm privy to the complexities of manufaturing a high quality roller or ball bearing and Chris King DOES NOT have that ability. If you saw the machinery involved you'd understand why I'm adamant about this.


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Bearings are not machined*



frank n. beans said:


> They machine all their bearings and shells


Bearing balls are not "machined." Again, this points out that they may well put together their own cartridges from balls they purchase and races they manufacture. It does NOT say that they actually make the ball bearings.


----------



## bigdeal (Jul 24, 2002)

*loud?*



Henry Chinaski said:


> Yep, that about sums it up.


Is it louder than Record? I sometimes wonder if people hear me before they see me....


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Why don't you just e-mail them and ask the specific question.......*



frank n. beans said:


> From "Bike" Magazine, Aug/Sept 2003:
> 
> "The most impressive features of the King operation, however, are found in the actual manufacturing process. Every Chris King component is made in-house. They machine all their bearings and shells, and do all their own heat-treating and anodizing."
> 
> For what it is worth, in the Chris King service manual for hubs, it states: "In-house design and manufacturing - 100% made by Chris King in the USA".


as opposed to arguing about it?

Len


----------



## jumpstumper (Aug 17, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> Bearing balls are not "machined." Again, this points out that they may well put together their own cartridges from balls they purchase and races they manufacture. It does NOT say that they actually make the ball bearings.


Bearing balls are not machined? Boggle - I worked at a summer job operating a ball machine - they most certainly are machined!


----------



## frank n. beans (Apr 9, 2004)

Len J said:


> as opposed to arguing about it?
> 
> Len


Just trying to add to the discussion, I had some information that I thought was pertinent, that is all. Not interested in arguing.


----------



## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

*Sorry........*



frank n. beans said:


> Just trying to add to the discussion, I had some information that I thought was pertinent, that is all. Not interested in arguing.


My comment wasn't adressed to you specifically, it was to everyone involved. Sorry if it came across as directed at you.

These kind of, easily resolved, discussions amuse me.

Len


----------



## conrad gardner (Dec 2, 2004)

Ball bearings are often machined as part of the finishing process. They are not machined from the blank to get the basic ball shape, but they are often machined during the finishing stage.

Still, I'd have to see pictures of King's bearing works or take a tour to believe they actually manufacture their own bearings. Making really precise bearings costs an arm and a leg for the capital costs it takes to set up such an operation and this type of capital outlay only pays itself off if you are producing real large volumes as another poster said. Does King have an available annual financial report? If so, look at the balance sheet and depreciation expense, and you'll know pretty soon if they have their own bearing operation. Unless they somehow bought a bearing works in a bankruptcy proceeding from another company it would be hard to envision someone as small as King laying out the capital to make their own bearings. Most likely they are doing what Kerry said, some machining of another companies OEM product to meet their final specs.


----------



## Crankist (Feb 3, 2004)

jumpstumper said:


> Bearing balls are not machined? Boggle - I worked at a summer job operating a ball machine - they most certainly are machined!


There is a distinction between 'machining" and 'grinding' for a number of reasons, among them relating to BBs: typical machine tools can't offer the fine surface finish, tightly-toleranced sphericity requirements, or even handle the hardness of the balls. Besides, it's painfully slow and senseless to stick them on a lathe. So you were grinding (not machining) bearings, probably from a sintered mess of steel.


----------



## santabarbara (Nov 27, 2004)

*Chris King - LBS complained about them!*

I don't own them, but have been looking into getting a set. I was shocked, after reading almost 100% unanimous agreement that it's a product worth every penny. Apparently, the LBS said that they don't like em because they're a pain to take care of and maintain. I have NEVER heard this. I had looked into the Phil Wood hubs, but, I honestly love the sound of the buzz, and I have CK's headset- a great headset, and I only hear better about the quality of their hub. 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have been under the impression that the CK hub is an 'install-it-and-forget-it' component. I'd appreciate some feedback.

Thanks!
SB


----------



## srf (Jun 28, 2004)

santabarbara said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have been under the impression that the CK hub is an 'install-it-and-forget-it' component. I'd appreciate some feedback.


Since it doesn't have "real" seals, they're not exactly the lowest maintenance hubs. Also a rebuild requires a unique and expensive tool. I believe Chris King's site has a maintenance schedule, but then I don't know of other hubs that do...


----------



## winstonc (Nov 18, 2002)

I'd have to agree that they're a bit of a work to service -- you need the special hub tool to get at some of the bearings for maintenance. That said, I think that you can get away with not servicing them for much longer than you can with other hubs. I know people that have run them for years without servicing them. So you can install and forget them, and they'll last longer than almost any other hub out there. But just because you can forget about them doesn't mean that the manufacturer says that you should forget about them. Chris King also says to regrease their headset bearings every year or so, but I don't know many people that do that, and their headsets seem to have lasted a long time...


----------



## gspot (Sep 21, 2003)

Phil also makes their own bearings....


----------



## Bikinfoolferlife (Aug 13, 2004)

*I think the key about CK's manufacturing is in*

that they say they make their own cartridge bearings, that doesn't mean they make each component (i.e. the balls) that goes into the cartridge bearing assembly. That's why they put it that way. Besides, I knew someone that worked there, they didn't make them from what he told me and I don't think he had any reason to misinform me. They don't do their own PC anodizing like they intimate either, or at least didn't in Redding; maybe they do now in Portland. Careful use of English can imply things not directly stated. 

CK hubs on a road bike might need minimal service, but that is definitely not true for mountain bikes; I've got three sets and I assure you they get contaminated and need regular service (the rears particularly, fronts are minimal). Their beauty is that as long as you do service them they work well for a long time (I've not yet needed to actually replace a cartridge bearing).


----------

