# Pelvic orientation/hip angle



## SlowMover (Jun 6, 2010)

Do any of you fit gurus out there have any thoughts as to anterior/posterior pelvic tilt and what is **best**? 

Had a very interesting chat with a buddy last night who went through the Serotta school years ago. He is now leaning towards trying(not forcing), but trying to get his fit clients to adopt a bit more of a pelvic tilt that will rotate anteriorly. For years he felt 'you just sit how you sit', but is finding much or most of that has been due to the saddle and people sitting however they can to avoid point tenderness. As he has a long list of clients who come in annually to get tweaked he is finding the newer saddle designs are allowing riders to sit in a multitude of positions. 

For those not in the fit biz think this way: anterior is basically tighten your tummy and your tailbone raises up...stick your booty out! Posterior is hunched and rounded lower back like sitting on a bar stool. Make sense?

Anyway the main point he made was that he has a lot more people with flat backs and the ability to actually ride in the hooks w/o crying 

For those in the fit biz have you found this out over time? Not seeing it at all? Already knew it? Thanks for any input!


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Yep. I think of a weight pulling my SI joint forward more than anything. Does the same as you describe but the goal is a neutral back (limited curvature down in the lumbar region of the spine) to help with my injured discs. Joe Friel has commented on this when climbing. I'll see if I can did up the article...


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

I found that forward pelvic rotation helped me breathe a little better and seemed to loosen up my hamstrings a bit. But I quickly tired of holding that position after 30 seconds or so, so I've abandoned it. I remember being amazed at how much that rotation affected "reach". Note where your front hub is in relation to the bars, then do a pelvic rotation. You'll see the hub move forward significantly. With my pelvis fully rotated forward, I could see the top of my brake calipers.

Joe Friel talked about this some years ago, but he used a photo that doesn't seem to show that significant difference (at least, I can't see it). Interesting comments as well.
http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/09/road-bike-posture.html


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## George M (Sep 25, 2008)

I was told I have a pelvic tilt and they kept trying to talk me into a $300, but I said I'll keep playing with it myself. I knew things were going to keep changing and I wasn't going to pay for a fit every year. After studying fit for a few years and experimenting with myself I believe I have it. With the new saddle, I was using a Aliante now the Selle Italia SLK, I find myself moving around more. I also noticed I do stick my butt out more.
Taking measurements over time, I noticed my right calf was smaller by half and inch over the left. So I knew it wasn't working as hard as the other side. So I picked up some shims and what a difference. It took care of the chafing I kept having on any ride, I had over 20 miles.

Maybe paying for a fit is the way to go for some, but I wanted to learn it myself and again, I knew there were going to be more changes down the road. One fitter told me when you buy new shoes, you have to get fit again. When I heard that, I knew I had to learn as much as I can about fit.

Anyhow YMMV very, but I don't think a fitter can get me anymore comfortable than I am right now.


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## SlowMover (Jun 6, 2010)

Like you I enjoy learning and doing it myself, but had I not had some friends 'in the biz' I may have found myself paying for help. The problem is you can take 10 fitters and every one will have a different idea about what is right.

You hit the nail on the head with shoes/shims. The one constantly overlooked and least understood aspect of fit tech is that of foot/shoe/cleat/pedal interface. My LBS's here are clueless about such intricate details. Absolutely clueless.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

George M said:


> I was told I have a pelvic tilt


That probably referred to a left-right pelvic tilt, which results in one hip being lower than the other ("dropping one hip"). The pelvic tilt we're talking about here is rotating your entire pelvis evenly forward and down. One visualization to aid in that rotation is "try touching the top tube with your navel." Friel's visualization suggestion is "spilling water out of a bowl."


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

wim said:


> I found that forward pelvic rotation helped me breathe a little better and seemed to loosen up my hamstrings a bit. But I quickly tired of holding that position after 30 seconds or so, so I've abandoned it. I remember being amazed at how much that rotation affected "reach". Note where your front hub is in relation to the bars, then do a pelvic rotation. You'll see the hub move forward significantly. With my pelvis fully rotated forward, I could see the top of my brake calipers.
> 
> *Joe Friel talked about this some years ago, but he used a photo that doesn't seem to show that significant difference (at least, I can't see it). Interesting comments as well.
> http://www.trainingbible.com/joesbl...oks subtle but the feeling is very different.*


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

woodys737 said:


> That's the one. Pretty big difference between the two riders. It looks subtle but the feeling is very different.


I can't _see_ that big difference on the photo, that's all. If one rider has his pelvis rotated and the other one does not, I definitely agree that they're pedaling in very different ways.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

wim said:


> I can't _see_ that big difference on the photo, that's all. If one rider has his pelvis rotated and the other one does not, I definitely agree that they're pedaling in very different ways.


I couldn't see it either before my back issues. Now that I have been introduced with this first hand via a fitting I get it and can now see it in this example. Try comparing the low back area from between the numbers and the bottom (waist) of the jersey. The WM rider doesn't have the low back curvature that the Road Construction rider on the right has due to the difference in tilt.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

woodys737 said:


> Try comparing the low back area from between the numbers and the bottom (waist) of the jersey. The WM rider doesn't have the low back curvature that the Road Construction rider on the right has due to the difference in tilt.


OK, I see what you're getting at. My problem is that the crank position of the riders is so different that I can't compare hip angle. On top of that, the saddle-to-bar drops appear to be very different as well. Since amount of bar drop affects back angle and -contour, I have a hard time connecting pelvic tilt with the way these backs look.

Whatever, I'm convinced that pelvic tilt works—if you can manage to make it your automated default position. I never could.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I've always liked saddles that are curved, like the Selle Italia Flite and my Current Selle SMP Evolution, the main reason being that there is room to vary pelvic tilt on them.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Different*



SlowMover said:


> The problem is you can take 10 fitters and every one will have a different idea about what is right.


The real problem is that there really is no "right" fit. All fit parameters fit within a range, but each of us has to explore that range to find out what works best. And even "works best" is going to be a tradeoff. There is a balancing act between the various factors, and there is a LOT of physiological difference among a group of people. You cannot arbitrarily say that there is one set of fit numbers that are "the best." And that doesn't even consider the well-established fact that our bodies change over time, or that what is "right" for a long-distance tourist is probably not "right" for a time trialist or crit racer.


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## SlowMover (Jun 6, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> The real problem is that there really is no "right" fit. All fit parameters fit within a range, but each of us has to explore that range to find out what works best. And even "works best" is going to be a tradeoff. There is a balancing act between the various factors, and there is a LOT of physiological difference among a group of people. You cannot arbitrarily say that there is one set of fit numbers that are "the best." And that doesn't even consider the well-established fact that our bodies change over time, or that what is "right" for a long-distance tourist is probably not "right" for a time trialist or crit racer.


I didn't explain that well enough. For instance. The Trek store that does fits down the street slams everyones cleats as far forward as they will go and that's it. Have seen it done from small feet to large one. Doesn't matter, that's how the girl up there does it. You go to the Cervelo dealer across town and that dude is all about cleats, wedges, varus correction and in my opinion does a very good job at addressing the foot-shoe-cleat-pedal interface. You go to the Specialized/CDale dealer and the guys there size you up for a road bike by standing over the top tube and say 'yup that's a fit, can I get you some pedals with that?'. It's haphazard from one fitter to the next. Not only is there no continuity on similar topics like the foot-shoe-cleat-pedal process, but the quality of the fitters..et. al my CDale guys....can be atrocious. The Trek fitter nearly destroy my buddies knees(before I knew him or I woulda sent him to the Velo boys!)


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*I get it*



SlowMover said:


> I didn't explain that well enough. For instance. The Trek store that does fits down the street slams everyones cleats as far forward as they will go and that's it. Have seen it done from small feet to large one. Doesn't matter, that's how the girl up there does it. You go to the Cervelo dealer across town and that dude is all about cleats, wedges, varus correction and in my opinion does a very good job at addressing the foot-shoe-cleat-pedal interface. You go to the Specialized/CDale dealer and the guys there size you up for a road bike by standing over the top tube and say 'yup that's a fit, can I get you some pedals with that?'. It's haphazard from one fitter to the next. Not only is there no continuity on similar topics like the foot-shoe-cleat-pedal process, but the quality of the fitters..et. al my CDale guys....can be atrocious. The Trek fitter nearly destroy my buddies knees(before I knew him or I woulda sent him to the Velo boys!)


I should have started my post with something like "On top of all the philosophical differences and the just plain questionable practices of various fitters," 

Yeah, I was pointing out that even with a "good" fit, there's variables, and then you add what can charitably be described as "marginal" fit practices, and it's a wide open universe.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

My personal experience has been quite enlightening regarding pelvic tilt and not only saddle comfort but bib comfort, breathing and power. To make a long story really short, when I ride with my pelvis rotation forward and down resulting in my butt feeling like it's sticking out the back I can breath easier, my legs feel stronger, my back is more relaxed and my saddle/bibs feel more comfortable.

On my old Schwinn Le Tour the frame is too big for me which causes me to stretch out more. This means that my pelvis is rotated down and forward naturally to reach the handlebars comfortably. I feel faster, stronger and more comfortable riding this bike than my Specialized Allez Comp that I had a bike fit on in which I feel much more like I'm sitting in a chair. Needless to say I'm having the fit redone on the Specialized because an expensive bike fit should NOT make the bike more uncomfortable than a free hand me down bike that you just sat on and started riding.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Due to years of personal back-ache issues (both off and on bike but not related) my physiotherapist (a non rider!) checked me out and video taped me riding rollers and made many suggestions. She was even savvy enough to spot my tilt due to a broken collarbone 35 years ago ("Ahh you've had a broken collarbone!" she exclaimed)

She wanted to get my back curve away from L4/L5 as much as possible and get most of the forward bend at the pelvis. This was accomplished with much Physio, core exercises, chair-sitting drills, on-bike position adaptation and probably more stuff I can't remember. Now, 18 months after we began, it's 2nd nature. As Wim says, it leads to a longer (and lower!) position and I went from a 100mm stem to a 130 and now when I stretch out in TT mode on the hoods, I'm 2-3 fingers in front of the hoods so my position has lengthened considerably. This lowered my head (& torso of course) and when I first started doing the drills my average speed shot up by about 1mph.

On my Fartlek training days (which seem to be all riding days anymore) I drill myself with intervals in my lowest, longest position, pelvis rotated forward, thighs bumping rib cage and I roll a "big" gear in perfect style (no upper body cheating). All I lack is the praying-mantis pose of the trigeeks and that one will be over my dead body.

So Wim (and others), persevere with forward pelvis rotation if you think it might help your particular cause. The body will adapt and the position will become ingrained in a couple of months of use. But as Kerry Irons pointed out, this is not for everyone.

Oh and my backache went from appearing at twenty minutes into every ride to 40 minutes which was a revelation. But now, I rarely think about it even though it appears somewhere on most rides. Recently I did a 4hr, 112km ride and after the ride I didn't remember any ache or making any concessions for it.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 22, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Due to years of personal back-ache issues (both off and on bike but not related) my physiotherapist (a non rider!) cheacked me out and video taped me riding rollers and made many suggestions. She was even savvy enough to spot my tilt due to a broken collarbone 35 years ago ("Ahh you've had a broken collarbone!" she exclaimed)
> 
> She wanted to get my back curve away from L4/L5 as much as possible and get most of the forward bend at the pelvis. This was accomplished with much Physio, core exercises, chair-sitting drills, on-bike position adaptation and probably more stuff I can't remember. Now, 18 months after we began, it's 2nd nature. As Wim says, it leads to a longer (and lower!) position and I went from a 100mm stem to a 130 and now when I stretch out in TT mode on the hoods, I'm 2-3 fingers in front of the hoods so my position has lengthened considerably. This lowered my head (& torso of course) and when I first started doing the drills my average speed shot up by about 1mph.
> 
> ...


This is sound quite a bit like the few things I noticed from my very first ride when forcing myself to roll my hips and pelvis forward on my Specialized, minus the back issues. I noticed that my 100mm stem seemed WAY too short, like I was hanging over the front almost. I seem to be pretty flexible, can touch toes no problem and actually feel better bent over at the waist there. When I'm descending I like to do the hang your butt of the back of the saddle and can actually get low enough to put my nose under the handlebars without a problem. 

Also, I think I have naturally become comfortable in this "stretched" position from riding a slight too big road bike *1984 Schwiin Le Tour* for a year and a half as my commuter which sadly gets more use than my Specialized. On this bike I had to be stretched out/rotated forward or I won't reach the bars


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## serious (May 2, 2006)

I tried the forward tilt only to experience some numbing "down there". It seems that as soon as I tilt forward I also get off the sit bones, so the pressure has to go somewhere else. I use the Toupe saddle, so maybe other saddles would be better, but I cannot imagine how ANY saddle design would keep pressure on sit bones when I tilt forward. But not everyone is built the same, so it certainly must work for some people.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

serious said:


> I tried the forward tilt only to experience some numbing "down there". It seems that as soon as I tilt forward I also get off the sit bones, so the pressure has to go somewhere else. I use the Toupe saddle, so maybe other saddles would be better, but I cannot imagine how ANY saddle design would keep pressure on sit bones when I tilt forward. But not everyone is built the same, so it certainly must work for some people.


I needed to tilt my saddle down a bit - not a whole 1/4" - and that helped perfectly.


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## Wood Devil (Apr 30, 2011)

When I ride, I am more comfortable with an anterior position, flat back, butt out. Too many bumps, though, make the special spot rather sore. As the ride progresses, I always wind up reverting (naturally) to a posterior, hunched and rounded back ... which inevitably makes my lower back sore.





SlowMover said:


> Do any of you fit gurus out there have any thoughts as to anterior/posterior pelvic tilt and what is **best**?
> 
> Had a very interesting chat with a buddy last night who went through the Serotta school years ago. He is now leaning towards trying(not forcing), but trying to get his fit clients to adopt a bit more of a pelvic tilt that will rotate anteriorly. For years he felt 'you just sit how you sit', but is finding much or most of that has been due to the saddle and people sitting however they can to avoid point tenderness. As he has a long list of clients who come in annually to get tweaked he is finding the newer saddle designs are allowing riders to sit in a multitude of positions.
> 
> ...


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Wow, now we're getting down to some of the nitty-gritty of proper bike fitting. The OP's friend had some interesting and, IMO, accurate observations. Anterior pelvic rotation is certainly desirable and a good fitters will be able to achieve the best degreee of APR possible in the rider. This however will be limited by pelvic floor shape, ischial width, lower back orientation (lordotic etc.) and available saddles. Obviously the rest of the fit will contribute significantly towards achieving the best possible level of pelvic stability in the rider and this will affect the overall degree of APR. In the old days the prevalence of posterior rotation was caused to a large degree by the institutionalizing of narrow racing saddles - this causes the rider to clench the buttocks to limit the "wedging" effect of the saddle and these clenched glutes resulted in a posterior tilt. But this kept the "bits" away from serious pressure and limited the saddle numbness and pain. With modern saddle designs catching up and manufacturers supplying good flat back and cut-out designs there are numerous options available for riders to stabilize the pelvis and relax the glute medes and other pelvic stabilizers and naturally achieve a more anterior pelvic rotation. This in turn bodes well for long-term avoidance of overuse and repetitive-stress injuries.
I must stress that the tilting should occur in response to fitting adaptations and should not be summarily introduced as an exercise or forced position as this will result in issues like pressure and moving off the ischials. 

So Serious, you might need to try a Romin saddle with a bit of nose-up and play around with a lower, more forward saddle fitting...


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

The answer to all of your (and every one else's) questions re fit : Blog and fitting info » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website

The first thing I do fitting my own cleats is to slam the cleats back as far as they will go. See first article in Hogg's blog.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

serious said:


> I tried the forward tilt only to experience some numbing "down there". It seems that as soon as I tilt forward I also get off the sit bones, so the pressure has to go somewhere else. I use the Toupe saddle, so maybe other saddles would be better, but I cannot imagine how ANY saddle design would keep pressure on sit bones when I tilt forward. But not everyone is built the same, so it certainly must work for some people.


It's not always as simple as that. A forward tilt is likely to give you some pressure in the sensitive bits, if that's all there is to the change. Essentially, you pivot on the sit bones, and roll off of the wide part of the saddle, wedging the nose into places you prefer it wouldn't. Typically, moving back on the saddle a bit will elevate the perineum above the nose and help address that. But - there can be fit adjustments (saddle height and / or setback) that might be needed to make that sustainable. And it might mean a different saddle for your anatomy. Mike T. mentioned tilting the nose down, and that can work for some situations, but IMO more often it ends up making the problem worse. 

Worth considering that you might already be tilted more forward than you realize. No way to know, but it's a possibility.

The way I try to describe it - it's not exactly correct, but it's a useful image - is that the saddle shouldn't support the 'sit bones' (usually considered as the bottom of the ischial tuberosity, but not really) but should instead support as much of the entire length of the ischiopubic ramus as possible.










The trick is to realize that everyone's ramus are angled slightly differently, so different saddles nest with different pelvises in unique ways. 

Plus, the Toupe name has been put to many sizes and shapes of saddle. But somehow, I haven't found one of them that suits me.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Terex said:


> The answer to all of your (and every one else's) questions re fit : Blog and fitting info » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website
> 
> The first thing I do fitting my own cleats is to slam the cleats back as far as they will go. See first article in Hogg's blog.


Careful with the "back as far as they will go".
Might work for you but I know I ended up with some serious pain in the top of my calves when I did this out of laziness.
Re-read Steve's fitting procedure and re-fit them as per his instructions and the pain went away immediately.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

You're right, you've got to follow the directions, but he also is a proponent of mid-foot cleat placement. I'm guessing that if you moved yours back gradually, you wouldn't have the discomfort experienced before.

Even with the best fitting advice, large changes can result in discomfort or injury. If you ride a lot, and a fitter makes a big change, it's best to note the recommended position (esp. when raising seat height), and move to the recommended position gradually.


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