# Pinarello F4:13 Disaster



## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

F4:13 means: Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."

My PINARELLO F4:13 BROKE and i'm looking for some answers. I'ts hard to accept this from a HIGH QUALITIY ITALIAN FRAME, if are Italian made!

A label into the head tube can be the weak point. But were the QUALITY CONTROL? 
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/att...1&d=1231097369

I try the warranty, but they don't heard me. Specialized, Merdida, Trek offer a great warranty service, but PINARELLO....

The big teams frames are made in ITALY our TAIWAN?...


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## tyro (May 15, 2005)

How did that happen?  

Just at first glance it makes me worried about buying my first carbon bike...which I was planning on doing here any day. :idea: (I've been a steel and Ti guy up to this point.)


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/att...1&d=1231097369

The Label:


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

tyro said:


> How did that happen?
> 
> Just at first glance it makes me worried about buying my first carbon bike...which I was planning on doing here any day. :idea: (I've been a steel and Ti guy up to this point.)


I fall, something like this:


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

me thinks there is a whole lot more to this story


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## Ninja #2 (Aug 26, 2006)

Umm, you fell and now you are blaming the bike company. Maybe you should be blaming yourself?


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Ninja #2 said:


> Umm, you fell and now you are blaming the bike company. Maybe you should be blaming yourself?


Depends on what he hit. A frame shouldn't break in half from most falls. It looks like a car accident, not just a fall....


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

If that's the OP standing beside his bike immediately after the fall, he sure doesn't look as banged up as his bike.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Ninja #2 said:


> Umm, you fell and now you are blaming the bike company. Maybe you should be blaming yourself?


I fell because the frame broke! The frame did't support the forces. I'm a 70Kg, 154lbs. I didn't hit, i just try to be stable, then CRACK!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Richieg said:


> Depends on what he hit. A frame shouldn't break in half from most falls. It looks like a car accident, not just a fall....


I didn't hit! this frame just broke because didn't support the forces!


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

arech said:


> I fell because the frame broke! The frame did't support the forces. I'm a 70Kg, 154lbs. I didn't hit, i just try to be stable, then CRACK!


 It just broke while you were riding? It didn't break because of a fall?


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Bertrand said:


> If that's the OP standing beside his bike immediately after the fall, he sure doesn't look as banged up as his bike.


Yup, not a mark on the guy, the wheels look good, and the brake levers are still straight. It almost looks like someone forgot it was an rear car rack and backed into something. Or maybe is just spontaneously snapped, throwing the bike and rider into a field of foam rubber.


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## Cheers! (Aug 20, 2006)

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm

if Warranty doesn't work or Pinarello refuses to respond, I would see if Calfee can repair it. Surely repairing it (if it can be repaired) will be cheaper than buying a brand new frame.


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm pretty sure all Pinarello carbon frames have always been made in Taiwan. Some are finished (painted) in Italy. There was an interview with Fausto a year or so back in roadbikeaction where he stated that they do not have the capablity to build carbon frames in Italy. (not that there is anything wrong with Taiwan frames IMO)


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

bigbill said:


> Yup, not a mark on the guy, the wheels look good, and the brake levers are still straight. It almost looks like someone forgot it was an rear car rack and backed into something. Or maybe is just spontaneously snapped, throwing the bike and rider into a field of foam rubber.


Great observation, but appear something surreal, i just made a down hill, went out off the road, the front road lock, the frame broke, then i fell into grass field! I didn't believe but...it was happend!


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

arech said:


> Great observation, but appear something surreal, i just made a down hill, went out off the road, the front road lock, the frame broke, then i fell into grass field! I didn't believe but...it was happend!


so you weren't just riding along...You were going downhill, lost control and went off the road...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Richieg said:


> It just broke while you were riding? It didn't break because of a fall?


I did a off road down hill to deviate a race accident (i was racing), when i went back the front road lock, like the image, and the frame broke, and i fall"


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

arech said:


> I did a off road down hill to deviate a race accident (i was racing), when i went back the front road lock, like the image, and the frame broke, and i fall"


 Wow, that's scary to think it broke that easy whithout hitting anything!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Dave Hickey said:


> so you weren't just riding along...You were going downhill, lost control and went off the road...


I was racing and deviate a race accident, i didn't lost the control, i was estable but the front road lock, my body was back and made an handspike, the frame broke!


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Dave Hickey said:


> so you weren't just riding along...You were going downhill, lost control and went off the road...


Still doesn't add up. Most of us have seen bad crashes in races with no damage to the bikes, or at least not visible damage.

I could understand it being a bad frame though.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Bianchi67 said:


> I'm pretty sure all Pinarello carbon frames have always been made in Taiwan. Some are finished (painted) in Italy. There was an interview with Fausto a year or so back in roadbikeaction where he stated that they do not have the capablity to build carbon frames in Italy. (not that there is anything wrong with Taiwan frames IMO)


 I'm sure Pinarello could have their frames made by a quality Italian carbon manufacturer..it would just cut their profit magin. I think the Prince is made in Japan?


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

jsedlak said:


> Still doesn't add up. Most of us have seen bad crashes in races with no damage to the bikes, or at least not visible damage.
> 
> I could understand it being a bad frame though.


I had very crashes in my life, broke the wrist, colarbone, teeths, a lot of scratchs, destroyed a lot of wheels, broke the fork at least 20 years. Now i broke the frame. A BAD FRAME!


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

I broke a f4 and got a replacement pretty quickly. That was more around carbon cracking in the bottom bracket.

Suggest your main issue is going to be caused by the dealer not believing that the damage didn't occur in a crash! Because to be fair that damage is hard to believe that it just broke like that for no reason (not saying that it didn't!).

What country are you in? suggest you try contacting Pinarello in Italy directly if you still have issues with local supplier.

And all Pinarellos are made in Taiwan - even the Princes.

They get 'finished' in Italy, painting and tidying of the frame - there are only 6 employees in the 'factory' there and the frames are there for an average of 45 days before being sent out into the world.

Full article on Pinarello in the last issue of Bicycling Australia magazine.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

williethewaiter said:


> Suggest your main issue is going to be caused by the dealer not believing that the damage didn't occur in a crash! Because to be fair that damage is hard to believe that it just broke like that for no reason (not saying that it didn't!).
> What country are you in? suggest you try contacting Pinarello in Italy directly if you still have issues with local supplier..


Thanks! I dind't believe too, but i was happened... I'm from Brazil, the frame was bougth in Spain! I send to the dealer that promptly send to the factory. My first worry are SECURITY!

I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT SECURE! There's a piece of papper into the head tube. Propably this can cause a weak point!

This is can be a cause of a recall! I don't know if the factory don't believe or don't want to believe it easy ignore, but if have more like this....someone can die!


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## alex0220 (Aug 23, 2008)

A friend of mine had a big problem with Pinarello!!!
He had a little more than 6 months old Prince, and we went to race Flanders and the Paris-Roubaix path last April....
I rode with him the whole time and he did not fall at all.
At the last day we started to listen to some strange noises on the bike.
It had a small crack on the top tube.

Pinarello never replaced or repaired the bike.... Said it wasn't on usual stress point so it could only be caused by a crash,,,,,,,
I'll never buy a Pinarello..... Lame warranty!!!! No respect for someone that payd 5 grand for a frame!!!!!


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## tyro (May 15, 2005)

bigbill said:


> Yup, not a mark on the guy, the wheels look good, and the brake levers are still straight. It almost looks like someone forgot it was an rear car rack and backed into something. Or maybe is just spontaneously snapped, throwing the bike and rider into a field of foam rubber.


I wondered the same thing. One would think that the rider would be more banged up if the bike looks like that.


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

I can see how a frame can break without a rider getting injured, especially if you are lucky enough to endo and land properly (mountain bikers do this daily). That really sucks, it sounds like that frame can't handle the vibrations/shocks from a bumpy dirt road. Good luck with the warranty!


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

wait... are those Heliums??


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

Don't worry about the paper it's just something stuck on the inside of the tubes - have seen it before. 

Funniest one I've seen is a bit of paper similar to that with chinese writing on it on the inside of a cutout bottom bracket of a Bianchi - and right above that on the outside of the frame was a sticker saying 'made in Italy'...  

The problem with carbon is that it doesn't respond well to forces from other directions than it's designed to go.

Look at this prince from a crash here a couple of weeks back. Nothing major the guy just touched wheels and hit the deck in a pretty minor crash and look at the result.

On my Ridley you can squeeze the tubes together they're that thin - wouldn't take much to damage them.

You'll really struggle to convince someone of a warranty on a completely snapped frame - do you have insurance?


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## bemmis (Sep 14, 2008)

did you go down the steep grassy hill in the right side of the picture, and have it break when you transitioned onto the sidewalk?


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## jrabbito (Nov 23, 2008)

The pic of the 2nd frame....the break points are almost identical....:blush2: :blush2:


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

jrabbito said:


> The pic of the 2nd frame....the break points are almost identical....:blush2: :blush2:


I noticed that too ... and both frames look like they've been melted around the fork and seat stays ..


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

williethewaiter said:


> Don't worry about the paper it's just something stuck on the inside of the tubes - have seen it before.
> 
> Funniest one I've seen is a bit of paper similar to that with chinese writing on it on the inside of a cutout bottom bracket of a Bianchi - and right above that on the outside of the frame was a sticker saying 'made in Italy'...
> 
> ...


 Ummm, what's up that 50 ton mumbo jumbo carbon? It's supposed to be the best thing since running water? I understand the forces on a frame can differ from one crash to another, but damn, it appears neither one of these accidents were that bad and this is the result? Ummm... I think it's crazy to spend $6000 for a frame that can snap so easy. Get something either lighty used or a demo, etc. If you have problems, just throw it away and start over.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I agree in principle with what you are saying but the problem with the internet is we don't really know what happened..

Someone could have posted a pic of a steel tubed frame buckled in the same spot and claimed the same thing...

There are pretty high curbs in the pictures...a high speed crash into the curb would send you over the bars and would likely result in damage to just about any frame...I'm not saying that's what happened but I just don't think we know the whole story

It does appear to be more than a coincidence that both frames broke in the same spot


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Shameful*

That the italians con't with the "made in Italy" when they are not. Anyway, the two photos together show almost identical damage.


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## tjjm36m3 (Mar 4, 2008)

That picture of the yellow (or neon) broken prince looks like a deer or buck been shot and lay dying on the grass... metaphorically speaking of course.

Like I said before in your other post... compound factures on carbon frames are usually a result of a crash. Either your claim isn't very clear or your story just doesn't add up. It's just hard to believe that you have two areas of a carbon bike that suddenly "explodes" under normal riding, or in your case doing downhill riding.

Don't start an internet war regarding carbon frames made from Taiwan. It is true that all carbon fiber frames from Pinarello are layed up in Taiwan including your F4:13 and Princes, but heck that goes for other brands also. I think I understand your frustration about "security". You see a sticker written in Chinese and might assume that a manufacturing inspectator spotted a void or defective area on the frame, but the company "mistakenly" ship it out anyways without any fixes. It's a valid assumption but quite probably wouldn't hold up with Pinarello because you don't have the manufacturing history of the frame. I believe all Pinarello frames go through a static and vibration test before being shipped out. 

Who knows... maybe you just got the one bad apple out of the barrel.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

tjjm36m3 said:


> That picture of the yellow (or neon) broken prince looks like a deer or buck been shot and lay dying on the grass... metaphorically speaking of course.
> 
> Like I said before in your other post... compound factures on carbon frames are usually a result of a crash. Either your claim isn't very clear or your story just doesn't add up. It's just hard to believe that you have two areas of a carbon bike that suddenly "explodes" under normal riding, or in your case doing downhill riding.
> 
> ...


 If the frame is labled "made in Italy" it should be... "Painted in Italy" is more like it. It's just marketing bull *hit...


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

The breaks might be in the same areas, but if you look, the red bike has no other damage, and the yellow... well sorry for your Zipp handlebars...


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## Justridinalong (Dec 31, 2008)

I agree there has to be more to this story. I have never had any problems with a carbon frame "snapping in half" Maybe you got the one in a million defect frames. The forces of a good down hill run, could FSU on that section of the frame. 

But here is what I really wonder. Where you able to get unclipped before kissing the earth? Like others have said I am amazed at how good of shape the overall bike is along with rider after the crash.


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

not just the italians that do the 'made in blah blah' - it's a Euro zone rule that states that a certain percentage of 'making' a product - and I think it's something ridiculous like 15% has to take place in the country for it to have a 'made here' sticker on it. So painting it and slapping parts on it would be plenty.

Would expect the new merckx's to have a 'made in Belgium' sticker on em when they'll be in exactly the same boat as the Pinarellos.

Oh and that Lemon Prince got jammed between a rider and a parked car in a crit, so no actual 'impact' with the car just what caused him to hit the deck. Snap!

I suggest that the break on the top tube is the thinnest part, and when that goes it loads the down tube with a twisting force that makes that go second.

Hey how old was that F4:13 anyway?


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## jrabbito (Nov 23, 2008)

CleavesF said:


> The breaks might be in the same areas, but if you look, the red bike has no other damage, and the yellow... well sorry for your Zipp handlebars...



Absolutely agreed......however interesting that they broke in the same general place.....different accident same general failure. 

I might be making the switch to carbon...but I have seen a lot of issues lately....kinda scares me when you start hearing stories about the manufacturers not standing behind their products.

Cheers


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

jrabbito said:


> kinda scares me when you start hearing stories about the manufacturers not standing behind their products.
> 
> Cheers


Most carbon frame warranties have huge holes in them for the sellers to escape through. Generally, the warranties only cover manufacturing defects. Crashed? Forget it. Rode your bike in an organized competitive event? Forget it.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

williethewaiter said:


> not just the italians that do the 'made in blah blah' - it's a Euro zone rule that states that a certain percentage of 'making' a product - and I think it's something ridiculous like 15% has to take place in the country for it to have a 'made here' sticker on it. So painting it and slapping parts on it would be plenty.


It's even stranger than that: most countries operate under the "substantial transformation" rule of origin: _an article that undergoes processing in two or more countries is a product of the country in which it last underwent a substantial transformation._ Efforts to scrap that rule have been unsuccessful to date.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

I don't think any bike manufacturer's warranty covers damage that took place while racing... I might be wrong.

And it's probably coincidence that both the frames pictured broke at the same places - most frames in a head-on collision will break or bend at those places. The two steel frames I've broken in crashes both had tubes damaged beyond repair, badly buckled at the DT cable stops and on the TT.

I find it very hard to believe that any frame would break like that while JRA... you were racing, avoided an accident, went off road... doesn't sound like a typical JRA incident to me.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Dave Hickey said:


> ...It does appear to be more than a coincidence that both frames broke in the same spot...


The main idea are found some answers. And i found a lot of...I respect the Pinarello factory , but they won't heard obout. I like to contribute for a better product. I know that warranty don't apply in this case, but i'm not worry about it. I like to get other PINARELLO but i don't feel safe if i get other...t


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

alex0220 said:


> ...Pinarello never replaced or repaired the bike.... Said it wasn't on usual stress point so it could only be caused by a crash,,,,,,,
> I'll never buy a Pinarello..... Lame warranty!!!! No respect for someone that payd 5 grand for a frame!!!!!


THIS IS ANOTHER QUESTION: R E S P E C T.

I sale my Specialized Roubaix, and bought the Pinarello. Pinarelo cost 70% more, but the Specialized service are 1000% better...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Richieg said:


> If the frame is labled "made in Italy" it should be... "Painted in Italy" is more like it. It's just marketing bull *hit...


RESPECT IS THE QUESTION. There's no matter where the frame are made, but i think that the true it's important. And have different costs and perceptions about the countries factory...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

williethewaiter said:


> Hey how old was that F4:13 anyway?


2006, and i ride 15000 km!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

philippec said:


> wait... are those Heliums??


Yeah!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

bemmis said:


> did you go down the steep grassy hill in the right side of the picture, and have it break when you transitioned onto the sidewalk?


No, was on the other side of the circuit....


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

wim said:


> Most carbon frame warranties have huge holes in them for the sellers to escape through. Generally, the warranties only cover manufacturing defects. Crashed? Forget it. Rode your bike in an organized competitive event? Forget it.


I Know, but have other cases that happen whit Specialized, Trek and Merida, that the factory concede the warranty... And when i bought a Pinarello i think that i was buyng a superior quality frame i didn't expect something like this...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Justridinalong said:


> I agree there has to be more to this story.


BE ALERT! I think that can be the last issue! Great design, tradicional label, other things like this are important and have a lot of people that pay more for this because they think that these companyes can offer more...Some companyes offer great services and they are growing, other offer just DESIGN!


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## Eisentraut (Sep 18, 2008)

IMHO, The fact that these two bikes broke in a similar place vaguely indicates to me that it is in the design of these frames. Again, it shows to me that if you want to be at the cutting edge of weight, you also run the risk of failures like this. If they built it strong enough to assure that this never happened, few of the top riders would buy this frame because it is too heavy.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

racing... crash... warranty? doubt it. what is it they say, 'don't race anything that you will cry about when you crash/break it'


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Eisentraut said:


> ... it shows to me that if you want to be at the cutting edge of weight, you also run the risk of failures like this. If they built it strong enough to assure that this never happened, few of the top riders would buy this frame because it is too heavy.


I agree but have some critical aspects and SAFE are one! Have a lot of other frames lighter than Pinarello AND are more SAFE!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

FatTireFred said:


> racing... crash... warranty? doubt it. what is it they say, 'don't race anything that you will cry about when you crash/break it'


When you have a hard shock, OK, but when are a soft shock...I accept that the wheels, fork or stem can break more easily than a frame, and in my case this is more acceptable...


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

williethewaiter said:


> [snip]
> They get 'finished' in Italy, painting and tidying of the frame - there are only 6 employees in the 'factory' there and the frames are there for an average of 45 days before being sent out into the world.
> Full article on Pinarello in the last issue of Bicycling Australia magazine.


If Pinarelli has only 6 employees (is all the front-office business included in this?), it is extremely unlikely they have the resources to properly oversee, QA, control, and generally watchdog a Taiwanese or Chinese supplier. 

With rare exception, sub-contractors in those countries will cut corners, if they think you're not watching and can get away with it. This is based on my own & others' professional experiences in the electronics industry.


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## tecnosabba (Jan 10, 2007)

*This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world dominat*

(\ /)
()
(> <)

One of the best signature lines ever !

Quoting the OP : When you have a hard shock, OK, but when are a soft shock...I accept that the wheels, fork or stem can break more easily than a frame, and in my case this is more acceptable...

I wonder according to which dogma (speaking of pinarello) it should be more acceptable that a fork, a stem or wheels broke rather than a frame . you could die, or get severely injured if either one of these components broke !


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

not sure what your post is asking - the break could have been caused by an earlier event - maybe even a rock or something from the wheel hitting the downtube, compromising structural integrity. On a 2 year old raced frame, most companies would likely not give more than a reduced cost on a replacement through a crash replacement program (unless there was a crack caused by an obvious defect). 

Bottom line: frames are replacable items especially when raced. Only race on a frame you're not going to shed tears over if/when it breaks...


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

bikes break but them not replacing it, makes them a disgrace to the sport, period!

Anyone seeing this thread and still purchasing a Pinarello has issues

support the companies that give back to the sport, back their warranty and do right to their customers


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> not sure what your post is asking - the break could have been caused by an earlier event - maybe even a rock or something from the wheel hitting the downtube, compromising structural integrity. On a 2 year old raced frame, most companies would likely not give more than a reduced cost on a replacement through a crash replacement program (unless there was a crack caused by an obvious defect).


NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY, NOTHING HIT TO BREAK THE FRAME! For me it is a obvious defect, and i don't expect warranty. The frame broke when my body go back and do a handspike!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

HBPUNK said:


> ...bikes break but them not replacing it, makes them a disgrace to the sport...


DISGRACE, the real disgrace are when you are baffled by great marketing programs. JUST BE CLEAR is this that i expect! The bike was made in TAIWAN, OK, don't hide it. The frame is so light that break easily, explain the conditions of use. No warranty, ok, BUT EXPLAIN!


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

Spread this on every forum, lets get the word out. Pinarello not giving back, it will hurt them if we get this out there. Theirs no excuses for this

I feel for you, continue to pursue the justice you are entitled to, good luck


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I meant something hitting the frame much earlier - maybe months before, that eventually led to a catasrophic failure (the failure mode of CF). With CF, it can look fine by visual inspection but be close to catastrophic failure - you'd have to scan a frame to see (one reason why some engineers don't like it's use in aviation). 

Here's a fork with a similar story

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/12/bontrager-carbon-fiber-fork-failure.html


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Let's see photo's of Colnago's that broke in half........ Their so outdated or "not cutting edge" I'm sure they snap in half when looked at too hard.....


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

HBPUNK said:


> Spread this on every forum, lets get the word out. Pinarello not giving back, it will hurt them if we get this out there. Theirs no excuses for this
> 
> I feel for you, continue to pursue the justice you are entitled to, good luck


I try to help those bought a bike and put, like me, the design and tradicion like enough pedicatives to make a choice. ASK about warranty and safe...or better research about...


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Wow!!*



arech said:


> I had very crashes in my life, broke the wrist, colarbone, teeths, a lot of scratchs, destroyed a lot of wheels.


Sounds like you need to find a new sport! Anyway, racing on your good frameset isn't too bright. I always raced a crappy Cannondale and kept my nice bike for training and fun rides. Additionally, crashing and destroying a bike is your problem, and it's NOT the responsibility of the manufacturer to replace it. I had a small fender bender tracking my 2006 BMW M3, and I had to pay; not my insurance company.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

actually, arech, you need to read more about the properties of the materials in the frames you buy. You are accusing Pinarello of a faulty, defective frame with no evidence. Read my earlier post and the link for a likely explanation of your frame breakage. It is entirely consistent with the failure mode of the material used, and is due to the intrinsic properties of the materials. I don't know why people expect superlight components to last forever or be exempt from breakage. Pinarello doesn't owe you anything beyond what might be covered in a crash replacement program - again, the failure does not have to be the direct result of a crash.


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

why would you tell them you crashed anyway?

This was your mistake, you should have said you were doing a weekend Fred ride at 17mph when this happened, it would have avoided them making excuses to not replace because you were racing, even though this is a RACE BIKE

how much would it really cost them to replace this? A few hundred dollars maybe, the sweat shop workers in Taiwan making these frames are paid pennies per day probably.

Everyone should sue them for false advertisement after this, claiming these bikes are made in Italy

Pinarello is weak sauce


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> actually, arech, you need to read more about the properties of the materials in the frames you buy. You are accusing Pinarello of a faulty, defective frame with no evidence. Read my earlier post and the link for a likely explanation of your frame breakage. It is entirely consistent with the failure mode of the material used, and is due to the intrinsic properties of the materials. I don't know why people expect superlight components to last forever or be exempt from breakage. Pinarello doesn't owe you anything beyond what might be covered in a crash replacement program - again, the failure does not have to be the direct result of a crash.


 Frames shouldn't break in half without some trama.. If they do, the people building these things need to forget the "wonder frame" idea.. They should never make something this unsafe for the sake of saving grams here or there.. Most of the guys riding these things could never benifit from a "wonder frame" anyway. If your a top pro where seconds REALLY count, that's a whole different story.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

QQUIKM3 said:


> Sounds like you need to find a new sport! Anyway, racing on your good frameset isn't too bright. I always raced a crappy Cannondale and kept my nice bike for training and fun rides. Additionally, crashing and destroying a bike is your problem, and it's NOT the responsibility of the manufacturer to replace it. I had a small fender bender tracking my 2006 BMW M3, and I had to pay; not my insurance company.


 Your comparing apples to water mellons. If the paint started peeling off your car in big sheets, I'm sure you would not be happy. It's a defect in either the paint or how it was applied. If you hit something in your car, it's your fault...it's not a defect in the manufacturing process. The guy said he was racing, but didn't crash or hit anything, he ran off the road to avoid other riders and it broke.


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Yes, here's the issue. . .*



Richieg said:


> . . . he ran off the road to avoid other riders and it broke.


There lies the problem, when using a road-bike as a mountain bike you probably voided your warranty. That bike didn't snap two tubes because he ran over some pebbles and grass. My impression looking at the frame is the fork hit something immovable, causing the down-tube to be loaded in extreme compression it failed, and simultaneously the top-tube is loaded in extreme tension and bending (riders weight) and it too failed. If you look closely at most warranties, there is a disclaimer about racing (it is odd).


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## scmaddog17 (Aug 25, 2003)

makes me glad i own steel!


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Looking at him, even if he was offroad, he wasnt flying. He has no scuffs or scratches or even mud. Personally i think bad frame. It happens. We have all gotten so used to the "I was just riding along" threads but from time to time there are true bad frames. 
Thank god he didnt get hurt. 
Bill


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*to think the Italians...*



arech said:


> I Know, but have other cases that happen whit Specialized, Trek and Merida, that the factory concede the warranty... And when i bought a Pinarello i think that i was buyng a superior quality frame i didn't expect something like this...


manufacture a bike frame better than the hands of the Taiwanese lacks reason....you've just discovered this.

a couple lessons to be learned here:
1) don't race a frame you don't mind breaking...it does and will happen due to the unusual forces on the bike.
2) most high end race bikes are designed to only last/race about two years....I've had multiple industry people tell me this...they're lightweight and DISPOSABLE...doesn't matter what the warranty says
3) don't ever buy a frame with a crap warranty if you're thinking about racing it


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

Scary. This thread makes me think my next bike should be Titanium. And definitely not Pinarello, regardless of what material or country they are made from! Any company today that does not stand by their product risks to become extinct because Internet makes news like this spread as speed of sight all over the world! Looking at these pictures it is clear to me that there is inherently a weak spot in Pinarello carbon frames, even if it was crashed. There is crash and there is CRASH. Degrees matter. The frame should be able to take minor crashes else every time you just fall off your carbon bike (touched/overlapped wheels) you will be buying a new frame/fork? I dont think so!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> actually, arech, you need to read more about the properties of the materials in the frames you buy. You are accusing Pinarello of a faulty, defective frame with no evidence. Read my earlier post and the link for a likely explanation of your frame breakage. It is entirely consistent with the failure mode of the material used, and is due to the intrinsic properties of the materials. I don't know why people expect superlight components to last forever or be exempt from breakage. Pinarello doesn't owe you anything beyond what might be covered in a crash replacement program - again, the failure does not have to be the direct result of a crash.


Stevesbike i am an carbon frames user since 90's, i ride some MTB CF, i Know the factory process. I Know the risks. When i ride steel frames the fork are critical point. Now the carbon forks seems stronger than steel forks, Why the frames not? I didn't accusing Pinarello of faulty.I Know what i did, and i can say that it easy broke the wheel, fork or steem, but not the frame!


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

*Pinarello customer service*

FWIW ...
One of my occasional riding partners is a guy about 75 years old. Every few years, when he returns to Italy, he buys himself a new Pinarello at the factory.

A few months ago, while cleaning the bike, he discovered a crack in the underside of the downtube.

Now, he can't get Pinarello to give the time of day -- he is Italian, so "language" is not the barrier. Pinarello won't respond to his emails or phone calls in a meaningful way, concerning what his options are for the cracked frame, and/or how to proceed.

I am not very impressed by Pinarello customer service. Heck, Cannondale is known to provide moderate cost frame exchanges to the original purchaser with very little hassle, even if it's racing, I am told ...this is the C-dale policy on Alum bikes, I dont know about carbon.


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## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

If you decide to go carbon again get a Parlee Z4. You will not be sorry. Strong & light, but not cheap.

Taken from the FWB forum, as my file is too big too load, and resizing isn't working.


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## Mr. Jones (Jul 4, 2006)

HBPUNK said:


> Everyone should sue them for false advertisement after this, claiming these bikes are made in Italy


I don't think that would get you anywhere. While the frames are not manufactured in Italy, I believe that they legally do enough work on them there to claim that they are.


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## Mr. Jones (Jul 4, 2006)

Richieg said:


> I'm sure Pinarello could have their frames made by a quality Italian carbon manufacturer..it would just cut their profit magin. I think the Prince is made in Japan?


The carbon fiber is sourced from Japan.


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## Mr. Jones (Jul 4, 2006)

tyro said:


> I wondered the same thing. One would think that the rider would be more banged up if the bike looks like that.


Not even necessarily banged up... But the OP did say he fell in a grass field. If that picture is of the OP, then it looks like it was wet out. How do you fall in a grass field in the wet and not get any mud on you?


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

Kef, He would be sorry if he let Parlee the boat builder select his geometry, I've seen the geometry he's recommended for his customers on weight weenies and is was quite laughable, making it obvious he's a boat builder and not a cyclist

just because something is astronomically expensive doesnt mean its quality, in this case Parlee's lack of cycling knowledge, proven inadequate geo knowledge

this cyclist probably doesnt have an odd body, so he could find an off the rack bike would fit just fine anway, custom geometry is best suited for odd bodied cyclist


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## Balderick (Jul 11, 2006)

acid_rider said:


> Scary. This thread makes me think my next bike should be Titanium. !


AR - I've had a Ti frame fail, and the cause was simply a bad weld. Human error, and it can happen in any manufactured product. Plenty of Ti frames have failed. Any frame, regardless of the material it is constructed with, can fail if it is not designed or contructed properly.

If I were concerned with warranty, I would look very carefully at the warranty offered. Most seem to exclude racing and, oddly, training for racing. I am told Trek and others from the Trek stable do not have a racing exception, but I've not checked because I really have no interest in riding on a Trek.

Rather than worry about warranty - look at insurance. Better to cover yourself than have someone else warrant the crazy things that happen in races,


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Balderick said:


> AR - I've had a Ti frame fail, and the cause was simply a bad weld. Human error, and it can happen in any manufactured product.


Thanks! I agree about human error, and when this happen the things can be repaired! Humans talk, agree or disagree. Is this the question, talk about, discover and fix the failure, and do better things...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

bahueh said:


> manufacture a bike frame better than the hands of the Taiwanese lacks reason....you've just discovered this.
> 
> a couple lessons to be learned here:
> 1) don't race a frame you don't mind breaking...it does and will happen due to the unusual forces on the bike.
> ...


GREAT OBSERVATION! I ever obseve the lifetime use. You tell 2 years i prefer 30.000Km or 20.000miles.I learn in my experience that more than this the failure risk increase by material fatige! But can vary from hard or soft use!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

tom_h said:


> FWIW ...
> ...he buys himself a new Pinarello at the factory... Pinarello won't respond to his emails or phone calls in a meaningful way...I am not very impressed by Pinarello customer service. .


COSTUMER SERVICE! Is this the question. I Know that i can go to TAIWAN i can buy a lot of frames and put my label. But when i buy i bike i expect more than a lot of carbon/metal/ruber material!


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## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

Bike above is not custom, I own one, nothing wrong with the geometry. Very similar to my moots in fact.


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## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

Also, I feel for the dude whose 'rello snapped in half. Hope you get some satisfaction.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

I expect from Pinarello something like this: " Sorry about your accident. Your case isn't cover by warranty, and how we can help you?" And i will answer " Thanks for you attention.do you can fix the frame, or do you Know somebody that can do it?"...


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

HBPUNK said:


> Kef, He would be sorry if he let Parlee the boat builder select his geometry, I've seen the geometry he's recommended for his customers on weight weenies and is was quite laughable, making it obvious he's a boat builder and not a cyclist
> 
> just because something is astronomically expensive doesnt mean its quality, in this case Parlee's lack of cycling knowledge, proven inadequate geo knowledge
> 
> this cyclist probably doesnt have an odd body, so he could find an off the rack bike would fit just fine anway, custom geometry is best suited for odd bodied cyclist


What on earth do you base these comments on?

Parlee's geometry on the Z4 is almost identical to my VXRS. With 15 years experience of selling road racing cycles I see nothing wierd about their geometry at all.

Add in the fact that all bar the Z4 are available in custom geometry and your comments are even wider of the mark.

So provide the evidence of laughable geometry please.


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## DaveT (Feb 12, 2004)

ultimobici said:


> What on earth do you base these comments on?
> 
> Parlee's geometry on the Z4 is almost identical to my VXRS. With 15 years experience of selling road racing cycles I see nothing wierd about their geometry at all.
> 
> ...


Typical comment by HBPUNK. He's a troll.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

kef3844 said:


> If you decide to go carbon again get a Parlee Z4. You will not be sorry. Strong & light, but not cheap.
> 
> Taken from the FWB forum, as my file is too big too load, and resizing isn't working.


Yeah, Pina's are real cheap.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

a warranty covers defects in the frame production - there's no evidence that this frame failed due to such a defect. The OP raced it for 2 years - a lot can happen during that time (you're not racing much/hard if you don't have the pavement at least once a year...). If you're that worried about it, get a frame with a good crash replacement program, because that's what you need, not a general warranty.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*just from my own experience...*



arech said:


> GREAT OBSERVATION! I ever obseve the lifetime use. You tell 2 years i prefer 30.000Km or 20.000miles.I learn in my experience that more than this the failure risk increase by material fatige! But can vary from hard or soft use!


i've broken three frames in the past five years...two of them on my race bike...during normal training rides...hasn't been a problem as I've been lucky with the warranty replacements...but still these things aren't built to last very long.

glad you survived the fall...could have been worse.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

glad you survived the fall...could have been worse.[/QUOTE said:


> F4:13 means: Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." In my case the first thing that i remember: better the frame that me!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> a warranty covers defects in the frame production - there's no evidence that this frame failed due to such a defect. The OP raced it for 2 years - a lot can happen during that time (you're not racing much/hard if you don't have the pavement at least once a year...). If you're that worried about it, get a frame with a good crash replacement program, because that's what you need, not a general warranty.



I'm thinking about design failure! the frame broke at the top tube thinner part.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

bahueh said:


> manufacture a bike frame better than the hands of the Taiwanese lacks reason....you've just discovered this.
> 
> a couple lessons to be learned here:
> 1) don't race a frame you don't mind breaking...it does and will happen due to the unusual forces on the bike.
> ...


I agree with #1 and #3 but I'm not so sure #2 statement is correct.
I had a 94 Time Helix for about 10 years.
It had numerous races, crashes and accidents along with about 40,000 miles on it with no problem other than nicks and scratches.....
Maybe I was just lucky.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

MCF said:


> I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.




wow..


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## jrabbito (Nov 23, 2008)

MCF said:


> I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.


MCF I couldn't think of a more racist, bigoted comment than the one you just made. To say that Italians are all shady...wow. You're a real winner I tell you. 

Sure hope that you apologize for that comment. I don't think that this issues has to with Italians, or Italy. WE are talking about Pinarello...lets leave it at that.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

arech said:


> I'm thinking about design failure! the frame broke at the top tube thinner part.



Not sure about design failure but certainly not a robust design. Guess that's how it goes with a lightweight carbon frame.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

And it should also cover defects in the frame DESIGN. There is something known as defective DESIGN. Kind of like gas tanks exploding in Pintos. The cars were manufactured to the exact design, so there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but a design defect.

Pinarello probably overlooked the fact that a little bit of stress on the frame in a certain manner, which might actually not occur in cycling most of the time, would cause the frame to crack in half.

Not every Firestone tire on Ford Explorers blew up. Now, that was a manufacturing defect, but you get my point. Same goes for Pintos. Not every gas tank exploded. It had to be hit in the rear of the car, and in a certain way.

Then there is the possibility that Pinarello actually knows that this is a design defect, they have had an actuary do an analysis of the cost to recall all the frames versus the number of frames that will break, the bodily harm that will occur to the riders, and the likelihood of a rider prevailing in a lawsuit. If the cost to recall the frame is more than the cost the actuary comes up with to defend and pay claims, a lot of companies will go the litigation route instead of the recall route. Of course, that might hurt their image too.

Honestly, after seeing this thread, you will never see me on a carbon Pinarello. Sad thing is that I was actually eyeing one. Oh well, this thread was good for my marriage.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

I deal with "people" everyday, and know a lot of Italians too since I am Italian, and Italians aren't any more "shady" than the majority of other people. The European culture is a lot different than the American culture. My parents are always looking to save a dollar where ever they can, and if they see a scratched floor model that will work, they will try to get it for less. Does that really make them shady? I think other Europeans and South Americans are the same way. They know the art of negotiation.

By the way, my dad is the most honest person I know. One time, a cashier gave him an extra $100 in change via 5 $20 bills, and my dad gave it back to him. Another time, he had promised to take us hunting on Thanksgiving morning, but had forgotten about his promise and really wasn't in the mood to go that morning. As soon as we told him he had promised, he said "load up the car, but we have to be back by 2:00". When it comes down to honesty and integrity, only a few Americans can even come close to touching my father in that department, and to think he is Italian and actually from Italy. Unbelievable!!!!


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

MCF said:


> I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.


I don't deal with 'consumer products', but in the industrial sector, electronics in particular, this is _not_ my experience. The Italians are among the "best & brightest" in the hi-tech sector, including their business practices.

Last but not least, the northern Italian women, in general, are the hottest, most stylish, and elegant in the world, IMNSHO ;-)


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

My dad is from northern Italy. The region of Friuli and his town is about 45 minutes north of Venice by car right at the foot of the alps. Wish I had taken a bike over there when we visited in 2001.

My wife is one quarter Sicilian with the rest from about the same latitude as Rome, but on the east side of Italy. Not southern, but not northern either.


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## hoehnt (Nov 7, 2008)

maybe Ill stick with my aluminum frame.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Aluminum is the only thing I will race in mass start events. About the only time carbon fiber comes out for racing is in TT's that are hill climbs.


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## tjjm36m3 (Mar 4, 2008)

MCF said:


> I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

Parlee's CUSTOM geometry suggestions to his customers are hideous, search weight weenies. Yeah, I'm trolling, how about checking it out before you talk smack


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

30 sec Parlee search

this is not even the geometry thread I was looking for but here's one

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32238&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

fabsroman said:


> And it should also cover defects in the frame DESIGN. There is something known as defective DESIGN. Kind of like gas tanks exploding in Pintos. The cars were manufactured to the exact design, so there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but a design defect.
> Pinarello probably overlooked the fact that a little bit of stress on the frame in a certain manner, which might actually not occur in cycling most of the time, would cause the frame to crack in half.
> Not every Firestone tire on Ford Explorers blew up. Now, that was a manufacturing defect, but you get my point. Same goes for Pintos. Not every gas tank exploded. It had to be hit in the rear of the car, and in a certain way.
> .


EXACTLY! You summarise the question, and probably just especific situations can induce the damage!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

fabsroman said:


> I deal with "people" everyday, and know a lot of Italians too since I am Italian, and Italians aren't any more "shady" than the majority of other people. ..... They know the art of negotiation...


I'm a Italian citizen, and i'm born and living in Brazil. Some local shoes factories make shoes forn italians, and one request to supply the italians are hide any "Made in Brazil" register! The guy that buy this kind of shoes are induced to believe that are a italian shoe. But isn't...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

MCF said:


> I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.


DIO MIO. There's a big italian cumunity here...


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

HBPUNK said:


> 30 sec Parlee search
> 
> this is not even the geometry thread I was looking for but here's one
> 
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32238&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Means nothing. Without knowing what the person's build and fit needs one cannot be sure why his frame's geometry was the way it was.

Their stock geometry is fine.

Plus they have built for riders who have rebadged them per sponsorship. Pinerello only managed to get Peirero on the top of the podium in 2006. Indurain & Delgado diodn't even ride their bikes!!!!


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

MCF said:


> I deal with Italians everyday and they are 'shady' to say the least....all I can say is that EVERY Italian company that makes any consumer products offers little to ZERO customer support post purchase. Forget about warranty claim and move on with your life.


Bigotted Bullshit.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10741&highlight=dmt


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Sure as heck is....and proud of it!!!*



ultimobici said:


> Bigotted Bullshit.
> 
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10741&highlight=dmt


Work with them everyday and lived in Italy for a year.....I MIGHT have a little experience with them....everything is Domani domani domani (tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow)....and guess what, tomorrow never comes. To say they exaggerate and bend the truth is an UNDERSTATEMENT....


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

MCF said:


> Work with them everyday and lived in Italy for a year.....I MIGHT have a little experience with them....everything is Domani domani domani (tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow)....and guess what, tomorrow never comes. To say they exaggerate and bend the truth is an UNDERSTATEMENT....


I doubt it. My business partner is Italian, my business is in Italy, I deal with Italians every day with no more trouble than any other nationality.

I had a 25+ run of cycle clothing designed and produced in Italy last year in 30 days flat. Half of that was back and forth with design changes.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

this thread is now just totally ridiculous... totally unfounded pinarello bashing, italian bashing, and even parlee bashing (in a thread about pinarellos...) there's nothing constructive here at all.

can someone block it please?


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm not sure about Italy but many European countries (e. g. Germany) do not have legal regulations concerning to "Made in THIS_COUNTRY".




Mr. Jones said:


> I don't think that would get you anywhere. While the frames are not manufactured in Italy, I believe that they legally do enough work on them there to claim that they are.


I|m


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

+1 on this thread officially becoming bs. It's a bunch of rambling bullshit .


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## HBPUNK (Mar 25, 2006)

that geo and others telling the truth on that thread mean nothing to a jock rider, thats the truth. A "Custom" nude carbon frame with a few colored stickers, man how special. 

and a personal friend of mine was the original one with geo shock that came from Parlee but I'm just a troll anything I say is invalid

The Jerk give the best run down on Parlee on that thread and he owns one, guess he's just a troll as well


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

HBPUNK said:


> that geo and others telling the truth on that thread mean nothing to a jock rider, thats the truth. A "Custom" nude carbon frame with a few colored stickers, man how special.
> 
> and a personal friend of mine was the original one with geo shock that came from Parlee but I'm just a troll anything I say is invalid
> 
> The Jerk give the best run down on Parlee on that thread and he owns one, guess he's just a troll as well


 I know someone that has a custom Cyfac with a strange geometery. His torso is longer than it should be for someone his height. It's not strange if the frame fits and rides well.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

tjjm36m3 said:


>


LOL, love it!:thumbsup:


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*heard it from multiple sources...*



cpark said:


> I agree with #1 and #3 but I'm not so sure #2 statement is correct.
> I had a 94 Time Helix for about 10 years.
> It had numerous races, crashes and accidents along with about 40,000 miles on it with no problem other than nicks and scratches.....
> Maybe I was just lucky.


in the industry here....ask a local shop guy you trust...'94? that was then...
the plastic bikes aren't designed to last long....


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

Ciao ciao, bye bye, bye bye, ciao ciao, bye bye....what you'll hear after Pinarello denies any responsibility for broken frame and offers to replace it at a markup of 5% above MSRP, but will be shipped domani domani domani....Hahahahahaha!!!!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

MCF said:


> Ciao ciao, bye bye, bye bye, ciao ciao, bye bye....what you'll hear after Pinarello denies any responsibility for broken frame and offers to replace it at a markup of 5% above MSRP, but will be shipped domani domani domani....Hahahahahaha!!!!


"TUTTE BUONA GENTE, MA...."


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## MaddSkillz (Mar 13, 2007)

Well, I believe you... There are such things as defective frames. I don't know why folks here on this thread just don't want to believe that.

Sorry to hear about it and hope everything works out for you.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

TO CLOSE...

More than an engineer question it's a satisfaction user question. I'll never feel safe riding a PINARELLO again. Why? because the PINARELLO frame did't support a extreme event that is possible and usual to occur...and this could cost my life...

Its possible prove why the frame broke, and i just like that the PINARELLO say this, who fail, and i'm stop here...and to close i tell:

"not just something that sound like good, but that can be really good and make the difference..."


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## Cyclingisalive (Jun 22, 2008)

Sorry to disappoint you - but ALL Pinarello's are made in China! The Dogma, Magnesium frame is still made in Italy. Apparently they do paint the prince in Italy - again the rest is made in China!
To my knowledge, Colnago is the only (of the bigger Italian known Company's) that still produces in house (Mr. Colnago's basement) - C50, Extreme C, Extreme Power, Master X Light, Dream HX and EPS are "home brew" - so maybe they are not that expensice after all when considering labor, material etc compared to a made in China frame set.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Cyclingisalive said:


> Sorry to disappoint you - but ALL Pinarello's are made in China! The Dogma, Magnesium frame is still made in Italy. Apparently they do paint the prince in Italy - again the rest is made in China!
> To my knowledge, Colnago is the only (of the bigger Italian known Company's) that still produces in house (Mr. Colnago's basement) - C50, Extreme C, Extreme Power, Master X Light, Dream HX and EPS are "home brew" - so maybe they are not that expensice after all when considering labor, material etc compared to a made in China frame set.


I don't think Colnago's are made in a basement?


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## Cyclingisalive (Jun 22, 2008)

I have been at Colnago quite a few times, during training camps is Italy and a visit to Colnago has always been included and I have been in his basement, seen, touched the frames made there. Any other question?


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Cyclingisalive said:


> I have been at Colnago quite a few times, during training camps is Italy and a visit to Colnago has always been included and I have been in his basement, seen, touched the frames made there. Any other question?[/QUOT If you say so, chief...


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## footballcat (Jul 8, 2004)

Its Simple 
Dont Tell Them You Were Racing

Tell Them You Were On A Ride, And You Went Over A Ditch To Avoid A Dog, When You Went Down The 3 Foot Hill The Frame Broke And You Found Your Self In A Heep On The Ground, With Your 4k Superior Built Bike In Pieces


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## alex0220 (Aug 23, 2008)

Colnagos that say Made in Italy ARE made in Italy. The ones that aren't (like CX-1, CLX, Arte) are specified by Colnago as made in Taiwan. It turns out that Colnago was the only honest of the big Italian builders...
Also small builders like Pegoretti are made in Italy but that is a whole different story...

Other european brand that has in house production is TIME. ALL frames are handmade in France.....

That's why Colnago and TIME are so expensive. Pinarello should charge a lot less for their bikes since labour is much cheaoer in Asia. Not saying the bike is bad, just saying it cost less to be build so it should cost less!!!!!

I heard that Look makes some in France and some in an LOOK factory in Marroco. It is not a contract builder....


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## kef3844 (May 30, 2008)

Steel breaks too, only bike I ever owned that cracked without being crashed was a steel Basso. Now its a wall ornament in my basement. 
I have crashed carbon (parlee) and Ti(moots) bikes are fine.


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## gestell (Feb 5, 2005)

richieg is a Colnago hater...sour grapes??


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

As much as everyone doesn't like to hear this but Italy lacks the knowledge and technology to build a high end monocoque frame on the level of the Prince. That's why almost every monocoque frame on the market is made in Taiwan or China. The Italian subcontractors just can't build it as well as the subcontractor in the far east. Almost all Italian carbon frames are tube and lug construction, which is simpler to produce. 
Taiwan is pretty much the world leader in composite products and mass produced precision goods. There is nothing to worry about a Taiwan made product.


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## bahueh (May 11, 2004)

*+1*



fabsroman said:


> Aluminum is the only thing I will race in mass start events. About the only time carbon fiber comes out for racing is in TT's that are hill climbs.


I will trust no one else to keep an expensive bike in one piece besides myself...too many squirrely riders out there to believe their actions will not end up costing you a LOT of money at some point....
carbon is better for TT's anyway....more comfortable..


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

alex0220 said:


> Colnagos that say Made in Italy ARE made in Italy. The ones that aren't (like CX-1, CLX, Arte) are specified by Colnago as made in Taiwan. It turns out that Colnago was the only honest of the big Italian builders...
> Also small builders like Pegoretti are made in Italy but that is a whole different story...
> 
> Other european brand that has in house production is TIME. ALL frames are handmade in France.....
> ...


All but the speeder are French built. Look factory is in Tunisia, but they only finish or paint frames in France.


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## jrabbito (Nov 23, 2008)

Rubber Lizard said:


> As much as everyone doesn't like to hear this but Italy lacks the knowledge and technology to build a high end monocoque frame on the level of the Prince. That's why almost every monocoque frame on the market is made in Taiwan or China. The Italian subcontractors just can't build it as well as the subcontractor in the far east. Almost all Italian carbon frames are tube and lug construction, which is simpler to produce.
> Taiwan is pretty much the world leader in composite products and mass produced precision goods. There is nothing to worry about a Taiwan made product.



Absolutely correct....it would have nothing to do with cost either. Everywhere except Taiwan they lack the knowledge, including here in the USA...........:mad2: :mad2:


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

ALL Pinarello's are made in China!... Colnago is the only (of the bigger Italian known Company's) that still produces in house (Mr. Colnago's basement)[/QUOTE said:


> I change to Colnago Chistallo...


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

I've seen this riding over extremely rough conditions in a race. I think the failure can occur over time and not just all at once. It's a possibilty that the frame was at the point of failure and all it took was a little more stress to cause a complete failure. 

Lets not forget that CF can and does fail without warning. One of the reasons I stopped using CF handlebars and stems. 

Of course I've raced CF for years and never had a problem. I think overall the material is very strong when it's manufactured with a great deal of care.

Of course this guy could have been going downhill at 40 mph and hit a curb straight on and flipped into the grass. At any rate try to get what you can out of the company as I think CF frames are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy over priced and we need to get the maximum amount of usage for our money. Lets not forget that all these companies void their warranties if you're racing, but these bikes are made for the sole purpose of racing and that's the only legitimate reason they exist. No company should be able to not honor the warrantie if you crash in a race.....I think it's high time they accept some responsibility for creating these speed demons. 

This is like buying an 800hp race car for no other reason than to get some grocerys. If you race that car and the engine explodes and you can prove that it was their shotty manufacturing then I think they owe you a car. 

There has to be some risk back on the manufacture or they'll just keep building stuff that doesn't hold up.

It's my belief that a race bike can be built to hold up for many years if the manufactures are willing to make them a little heavier and be honest and up front that as far as performance is concerned they won't hold you back. I see it as a great disservice to the racing community to put out stuff that is teetering on the edge of failure only to save a few grams so you can publish a lower weight than your competitors. This sport is too damn expensive to let this kind of crap continue.


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## Eisentraut (Sep 18, 2008)

"There has to be some risk back on the manufacture or they'll just keep building stuff that doesn't hold up."

Obviously you know very little about business. If a company does not offer a warrantee then don't buy the product. If the product is warranteed and fails within the peramiters of the warentee then the company should be liable to live up to the terms. Go buy an indestructable bike and see how many races you win. If you want to race accept the risk and quit whining. If a company makes a bad product then it will soon be out of business and that is what keeps them building quality products or no one would buy them! You make it sound like Pinerello has never made a good CF bike which I'm sure many will agree is bullsh!t.
This guy just took a risk and lost but to expect a company to pay up whenever a customer takes a risk with it's products would make everything outragiously expensive.
Thats why you can't go to your dealership and ask for a race car and people that do build race cars fully expect them to come back in a pile at some point thats why they have body shops and engine manufacturing as part of the business.

This guy just needs to move on and thank his stars he walked away from it.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Really. If a company makes a "bad" product it will soon be out of business. Should I start with the Big 3 American auto makers? Ford Pinto, bad product. Ford Explorer with bursting tires, bad product. Just because Ford has been around 100 years doesn't mean they never manufactured a bad product. How about Beretta? They have been around for 500 years. Several years ago, they bought two rifle manufacturers, Sako and Tikka. Under Beretta ownership one of those rifle manufacturers were building rifles that had exploding barrels. They caught the mistake and did a recall.

Maybe, if a company continues to make bad products it will end up out of business. However, a quality company can make a bad product once in a while, as long as it realizes it is a bad product and handles it correctly. From the description of both of the "crashes" that led to such catastrophic failures of these frames, you can bet that I will never buy a Pinarello. Sad thing is that I was just starting to get a hankering for one. To think that my frame might split in half if I get wedged between another rider and a car with my handlebars only contacting the car is crazy, in my opinion. To think that my frame might split in half if I hit a large bump is crazy, in my opinion.

After seeing the two pictures in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if a plaintiff's firm wouldn't file a lawsuit against Pinarello. If there were a lot of injury to either rider, I know I would probably take the case and argue design defect or manufacturing defect. It is quite forseeable that a frame would be subject to stress at some point in its life, and to have such catastrophic failures is nuts. Kind of like crash safety in everyday cars. Cars aren't supposed to be crashed, but there is a lot of safety items put into them just in case.

I'm just sitting here wondering if Pinarello has even looked into the possibility of a design/manufacturing defect, and I am wondering what Pinarello's gross income and bottom line is to see if they could even sustain a recall of these frames. Something tells me that they probably couldn't, so they won't.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

stop blowing smoke - it would be impossible for a lawyer to seriously argue for a defect on the basis of two failed frames. As I had in a previous post, the failure is completely explainable as the result of a microcrack due to an earlier non-catastrophic failure. The failure observed is consistent with the failure mode of carbon fiber. That's just the way the material behaves. There's no conspiracy, and there's certainly no evidence in the form of a statistical argument for a defect. Understand the properties of the material before you condemn the manufacturer.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Eisentraut said:


> "There has to be some risk back on the manufacture or they'll just keep building stuff that doesn't hold up."
> 
> Obviously you know very little about business. If a company does not offer a warrantee then don't buy the product. If the product is warranteed and fails within the peramiters of the warentee then the company should be liable to live up to the terms. Go buy an indestructable bike and see how many races you win. If you want to race accept the risk and quit whining. If a company makes a bad product then it will soon be out of business and that is what keeps them building quality products or no one would buy them! You make it sound like Pinerello has never made a good CF bike which I'm sure many will agree is bullsh!t..


I'm not going to for one second think that a tougher frame is going to make or break me in regards to race results. You add a little weight to the frame and it lasts for several years of racing, that's a winning formula for the customer as he doesn't have to deal with headaches of having his bike fail during a race which will certainly not win many races. 

Personally I'd never buy a frame from a company that doesn't make their own CF frames. Besides the mark up on these asian bought frames is outrages, none of them should be selling for more than $1000, but yet you see plenty of them selling for $2-4K and you have to wonder where all the money is going. 

If these companies are going to buy CF frames from cheap labor sources than they should offer two models. One with fancy graphics and paintjobs and the other with just a company logo and basic protective coating so racers can use these frames and not drop a lot of dough on them since it's assumed they're disposable.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Did you look at the frames? Are you an expert? Is it possible to build a frame so that this type of failure doesn't happen under these foreseeable circumstances? Are you an attorney and do you know design defect law? You need to know all of that to determine if something like this would be a design defect, and usually a single person's knowledge isn't enough to make that determination.

Do you think these are the only two Pinarello disasters like this in the entire world? (i.e., everybody that has a Pinarello that cracked in half posted it in this thread, and these are the only two in the world)?

Is it just a coincidence that the only two frames I have seen split in half like that, and pretty much in the same spot, happen to be Pinarellos? Do you have other pics of frames that have split in half like that? I have been on this forum for a little over 2 years I believe, and this is the first time I have seen a carbon frame split in half.

Most of the labels on lawn mowers are there because of design defect lawsuits that were effective. Who would have thought that a plaintiff could have won a case for a lost toe because the manufacturer didn't put a label on the mower warning him not to stick his toe under it while it was running. 

Design defects can be so minute that they aren't readily discernable by people that "know the properties of the material". Are you an engineer that designs and builds carbon fiber bikes? Is it so hard to believe that in the forever quest for lighter bikes, a little too much material might have been shaved off in just the wrong place?

Like I said, if a client walked into my office with a significant amount of injury and a frame that looked like that, I would probably spend the money to investigate further, and I WOULDN'T BE BLOWING SMOKE.

By any chance, do you own a Pinarello? LOL

By the way, it is entirely possible to argue for a manufacturing defect on a SINGLE frame, I wouldn't even need two broken frames for that. However, manufacturing defects and design defects are two completely different arguments.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

The money is going into marketing so that people like Stevesbike believe they are the greatest thing in the world even after he sees two of them split in half.


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## Eisentraut (Sep 18, 2008)

I am an engineer and I have worked with CF since 1991 in everything from aircraft control surfaces, props, fairings and one off sail boats. Also I have worked in R&D for 12 years developing manufacturing techniques.


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## alex0220 (Aug 23, 2008)

The Pinarello Prince from my friend that went to Roubaix and cracked on the top tube that I explained in the beginning of this topic had the crack on the same place in the top tube as this two. It did not split or cracked the downtube yet but for sure was in the same place.....
And Pinarello did nothing to him....


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Even though my questions were directed at Steve, you did answer half of them. Did you review the design of both of those Pinarellos? How about the actual broken bikes. If you did review the design for any defects, did you find the design to be adequate? Next, did you compare the wall thickness, carbon layup, carbon type, etc. to the design specifications to ensure that there was no manufacturing defect and that the design specs were followed to a tee? Even if the design specs were followed to a tee, did you notice anything else that might have caused the failure other than the rider's actions?


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

So we can now make that 3 frames at the minimum that have failed. Luckily, your friend didn't have a catastrophic failure and find his rear riding a unicycle while holding up the front end of the bike.


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## Eisentraut (Sep 18, 2008)

I've had no comment on the cause of the damage to these bikes. My point is stop whining and move on. I don't know anything of Pinirellos warrantee and I'm taking the guy at his word that it just happened though I suspect otherwise. It's just interesting to see what other people think about CF and how they mistrust it. The other thing I find interesting is how little people know about what they spend a huge ammount of money on.

Just my $.002


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Look, a couple of posts about a frame is purely anecdotal. Do you know the failure rate of these frames - do you know what an acceptable failure rate under typical usage would be - and whether this model frame deviates from that? If you don't you're just speculating without any warrant for your claims. The notion that a design defect would underlie these failures is pretty far-fetched anway - it's not like this is an area of the frame that sees the most forces, and it's not like Pinarello hasn't been in the game for a long time (and protour and US pro teams ride their frames - ever seen one of Caisse d’Epargne's frames fail like this?). It is most likely due to a prior compromise in the frame - after all, the OP did race the frame for 2 years before this happened (which by the way is the length of Pinarello's warranty, so it probably isn't even under warranty anyway).


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Eisentraut said:


> This guy just needs to move on and thank his stars he walked away from it.


I had luck. a lot of luck! And i tell, i' m riding a lot of time, 25 years, this frame couldn't broke at the situation that it broke..I crashed in worst situations and other frames suport...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

alex0220 said:


> The Pinarello Prince from my friend that went to Roubaix and cracked on the top tube that I explained in the beginning of this topic had the crack on the same place in the top tube as this two. It did not split or cracked the downtube yet but for sure was in the same place.....
> And Pinarello did nothing to him....


3 CASES! COINCIDENCE?


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Eisentraut said:


> I've had no comment on the cause of the damage to these bikes. My point is stop whining and move on.


ALERT! Is the question, not whining. I'm thinking in al those that ride PINARELLOS and can suffer with a broke frame...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> The notion that a design defect would underlie these failures is pretty far-fetched anway - it's not like this is an area of the frame that sees the most forces....


I didn't claim the warranty because i know that term was expired. I just called to the bike shop and describe the case, the seller tell me to provide the serial number frame. I did, after a couple of days they called and tell to send the broke frame. He got some warranties after the expired time. The seller was worried about the case and told me that is atypical.


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## oldskoolkool (Mar 5, 2008)

heathb said:


> I've seen this riding over extremely rough conditions in a race. I think the failure can occur over time and not just all at once. It's a possibilty that the frame was at the point of failure and all it took was a little more stress to cause a complete failure.
> 
> Lets not forget that CF can and does fail without warning. One of the reasons I stopped using CF handlebars and stems.
> 
> ...



I agree,it seems like manufacturers are going lighter and lighter with their frames to in a gimmicky marketing war,so they can say they have the lightest frame with little or no comsideration for how long the product will last or for the safety of the rider.
It seems no coincidence that they don't really specify how long you should use the frame for because they realise people may start questioning why they're paying thousands for a frame that will only last a couple of years and which shouldn't be used for the purpose for which it was designed for.
WTF is going on when manufacturers build and market frames for racing then use that as a get out clause if it does break.
Ive got two made in Taiwan Colnago CLX frames and shall definately get them checked out should I ever have even a minor spill on one.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

It's the Groundhog Thread.

Round and round and round. 

Yet nothing new.


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## dudley samuels (Jun 25, 2008)

I own a 1st generation Prince - I believe only the top end Pinarellos r made in Italy - I have had a factory tour twice and NO way can they make that many frames world wide there - plus I only saw the montello and prince when I was there ???????? As I am there often as my family live there I tend 2 get that feeling


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> Look, a couple of posts about a frame is purely anecdotal. Do you know the failure rate of these frames - do you know what an acceptable failure rate under typical usage would be - and whether this model frame deviates from that? If you don't you're just speculating without any warrant for your claims. The notion that a design defect would underlie these failures is pretty far-fetched anway - it's not like this is an area of the frame that sees the most forces, and it's not like Pinarello hasn't been in the game for a long time (and protour and US pro teams ride their frames - ever seen one of Caisse d’Epargne's frames fail like this?). It is most likely due to a prior compromise in the frame - after all, the OP did race the frame for 2 years before this happened (which by the way is the length of Pinarello's warranty, so it probably isn't even under warranty anyway).


 I would hope this is not acceptable under normal riding conditions... If it is..that's grade A bull*hit... By the way...how do you know "Caisse d' Epargne" doesn't have the same issues? Have you looked at every frame they use?


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## jac44 (Feb 11, 2005)

I saw a Cervelo break almost exactly the way your's did on a Cattle Guard a few years ago


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## dudley samuels (Jun 25, 2008)

on my 2 visits 2 the factory a few 2003 and 2005 I saw Pinarello Princes being put 2 gether - literally - there were alu tubing on the floor , carbon wishbones and with my eyes saw guys putting the wishbones in the back and preparing and painting frames - but spraying wirh no masks on !!!!!! - I saw twice the factory assemble line for the prince (1st generation)


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## dudley samuels (Jun 25, 2008)

well my prince (1st generation) has now been rested and stripped , I ride a Kuota all campag record (Kharma , Kredo and Kalibur) - top quality bikes - take a look at these bikes kuota.it


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

gestell said:


> richieg is a Colnago hater...sour grapes??


 No, I like Colnago.


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## steiger1 (Mar 15, 2006)

There are obviosly two threads on this topic. I am Austrian, living close to the Italian border an I travel twice a month to Italy an have visited some bike factories there. So, I have a F4:13 as well. This case concerns me a little bit; however I don´t understand the happening of the actual accident clearly.

However, some personal experiencies and opinions:

1.The bike business and technology is generally overpriced and overestimated. In secret the developers admit, that the frames (Scott, Trek, Cervelo etc) brake all the time and that they are produced much simplier than we could imagine in China or Taiwan. Except for the geometry, the characteristics of a frame are only occasional.

2. Unfortunately, the frame triangle of the F4:13 was the first step of Pinarello into the carbon business, the frame was nothing special. The triangle was produced in Taiwan, the rear cage and the fork elsewhere. Its heavy and the mold was not exclusively used for Pinarello; there were some models from other brands on the market; although they were not very common or widespread.

3. The Pinarello customer service simply does not exist. They don´t react to direct contact (mails, calls)at all and want to handle it over the national distributor - was my experience.

4. For me Pinarello recently thinks very much - too much - about style and emotion less about technics. Maybe thats justified as a bike in general is not that tecnical.

However, I like the brand Pinarello and my bike very much as ist is stiff and goog on downhills but less forgiving or light.

The Paris and the Prince use unique molds.

Finally, I would recommend a Colnago from the point of the production process.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Richieg said:


> I would hope this is not acceptable under normal riding conditions... If it is..that's grade A bull*hit... By the way...how do you know "Caisse d' Epargne" doesn't have the same issues? Have you looked at every frame they use?


Are the same? isn't special for pros?


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

dudley samuels said:


> well my prince (1st generation) has now been rested and stripped , I ride a Kuota all campag record (Kharma , Kredo and Kalibur) - top quality bikes - take a look at these bikes kuota.it


Thanks! i know Kuota, a friend get one, now i ride a Colnago Cristallo!


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## Cyclingisalive (Jun 22, 2008)

Colnago has NEVER been known for the lightest frame on the market! Even when the Extreme C was introduced it still was a heavier frame than the competition. Mr. Colnago's explanation - SAFETY come first! you can NOT make a frame lighter without reducing the amont of material used in the frame.


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

dudley samuels said:


> I own a 1st generation Prince - I believe only the top end Pinarellos r made in Italy - I have had a factory tour twice and NO way can they make that many frames world wide there - plus I only saw the montello and prince when I was there ???????? As I am there often as my family live there I tend 2 get that feeling


NONE of their frames are made in Italy.

they are cleaned / tidied and painted that is all.

there's only like 6 dudes that work for Pinarello - no wonder no one gets any response from them!


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

Cyclingisalive said:


> Colnago has NEVER been known for the lightest frame on the market! Even when the Extreme C was introduced it still was a heavier frame than the competition. Mr. Colnago's explanation - SAFETY come first! you can NOT make a frame lighter without reducing the amont of material used in the frame.


I've seen a truckload of warranty frames that have been cut in half and the quality of the frames on the inside is shocking. After looking at the insides of Cervelos I've got no idea how the bottom brackets don't rip right out.

Colnagos on the other hand are finished impeccably. And the amount of carbon they have around the bottom bracket probably accounts for half the weight in the frame. Definitely have a feel of quality around them.

Even their frame cutouts come in a nice box...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Cyclingisalive said:


> Colnago has NEVER been known for the lightest frame on the market! Even when the Extreme C was introduced it still was a heavier frame than the competition. Mr. Colnago's explanation - SAFETY come first! you can NOT make a frame lighter without reducing the amont of material used in the frame.


RESPECT! The Colnago respects his clients....PINARELLO just like to sale bikes...


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

arech said:


> RESPECT! The Colnago respect your costumers....PINARELLO just like to sale bikes...


 I thought they were considering giving you an out of warranty replacement. Considering you went off road in a race that's pretty nice of them to do. At the very least they should have a crash replacement policy.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

California L33 said:


> I though they were considering giving you an out of warranty replacement. Considering you went off road in a race that's pretty nice of them to do. At the very least they should have a crash replacement policy.


CONSUMER SERVICE! PINARELLO need to think about it. SPECIALIZED, MERIDA, TREK, have great services!


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

And this is why I refuse to race carbon fiber. All of my racing bikes are aluminum. That way, I don't have to get them MRI'ed if I am in a crash. I read somewhere that a carbon fiber frame has to be inspected by a pro after every crash, and should ideally be put through an MRI machine to see if there are any hairline cracks. Therefore, no carbon fiber bikes for mass start races for me unless it is straight up a mountain with no descent at all and hardly any flat leading to the mountain. I don't have enough money to replace carbon fiber frames after any wreck, or to have them MRI'ed.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

williethewaiter said:


> I've seen a truckload of warranty frames that have been cut in half and the quality of the frames on the inside is shocking. After looking at the insides of Cervelos I've got no idea how the bottom brackets don't rip right out.
> 
> Colnagos on the other hand are finished impeccably. And the amount of carbon they have around the bottom bracket probably accounts for half the weight in the frame. Definitely have a feel of quality around them.
> 
> Even their frame cutouts come in a nice box...


 Pretty cool looking kit you have there. In theroy, the stuff from Asia is supposed to be just as good or better than ATR carbon from Italy, but that DOES'T mean that the every Asian frame is quality. The CLX seems to be pretty good (I owned one at one time)


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## williethewaiter (Nov 25, 2008)

Richieg said:



> Pretty cool looking kit you have there. In theroy, the stuff from Asia is supposed to be just as good or better than ATR carbon from Italy, but that DOES'T mean that the every Asian frame is quality. The CLX seems to be pretty good (I owned one at one time) the CX-1 is still too new to judge, but I'm sure it will be pretty solid.


unfortunately my phone ran out of battery so I couldn't get any other pics of the internals of the other frames (and they wouldn't have come out that clearly) but suffice to say the other frames - a couple of Cervelos and Bianchis sorry I forget what else was lying around just were not finished to the same level of quality.

I'm talking actual material overlay etc, there were big voids where they overlapped etc and basically just looked like rubbish on the inside compared to the colnagos. 

does the inside matter? probably not but the images are burned into my memory - if you want a bike that will last for years I'd defo lean towards a Colnago after seeing that!


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

arech said:


> CONSUMER SERVICE! PINARELLO need to think about it. SPECIALIZED, MERIDA, TREK, have great services!


I have no doubt you're right about Specialized. They seem to warrant everything even if technically their warranty doesn't cover it. I've heard Trek sometimes is a little more picky, but usually comes through. I have no idea about Merida. Maybe Pinarello could have stood behind their product better, and with luck they eventually will, but the circumstances are somewhat unusual- a road bike making an emergency maneuver off-road. That may well put stresses on the frame it doesn't normally see, and that are difficult to engineer for. Again- I'm not saying they shouldn't replace the frame. You're right. It would be good PR for them to do it, but it's not like this is something that happens every day either. Best of luck.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

It is a precicted and common situation in a race. Pinarello has done a good fork which acquitted itself well strength. If it were a fork of steel or aluminum would have broken down, thus all force was for the frame broken.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Cyclingisalive said:


> Colnago has NEVER been known for the lightest frame on the market! Even when the Extreme C was introduced it still was a heavier frame than the competition. Mr. Colnago's explanation - SAFETY come first! you can NOT make a frame lighter without reducing the amont of material used in the frame.


 What about the "50 ton carbon" mumbo jumbo? It's "supposed" to be stonger, so Pinarello uses less of it and can still have strength where it counts. Yea...more marketing bull*hit..


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

arech said:


> It is a precicted and common situation in a race. Pinarello has done a good fork which acquitted itself well strength. If it were a fork of steel or aluminum would have broken down, thus all force was for the frame broken.


So you wouldn't be annoyed if the fork had broken?
Carbon is not any stronger than steel or carbon in a crash. If anything they are stronger.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> So you wouldn't be annoyed if the fork had broken?


No, i think that is more easy the fork broke than frame...


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

arech said:


> No, i think that is more easy the fork broke than frame...


Not so. You can have a crash and either the wheel, fork or frame go. I have seen many "weird" breaks, where the part broken is not what you'd expect. You raced this bike for 2 years? Is this the first crash? Or have you come off before? Has the bike been in a flight case on a plane? Etc.....


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

ultimobici said:


> ... You raced this bike for 2 years? Is this the first crash? Or have you come off before? Has the bike been in a flight case on a plane? Etc.....


15000 Km, first crash, never come off before, I leave the road in a downhill covered with grass, no rocks, no trees, ran to 15 km/h, i was on the bike, i brake, the frame broke! I fall...I believe in GOD...but Pinarello no more...


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Now like a BOEING....
Star of the show was Pinarello's gorgeous new Prince FP carbon, which is made in Torayca 50HM1K carbon fibre and is crucial to Pinarello's 2008 range. This composite material, used extensively in Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner is an exclusive to Pinarello in the cycling industry

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/colnago_pinarello200807


http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/newarrivals/01-21


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

How in the world is this thread still going on lol?????


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

alright already - I think you've given this horse all the beating it can take. Rule #1 of racing is don't race on stuff you're going to cry about if/when it breaks. Move on...


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*Hmmm...*

I a not going to jump down your throat for your statement, as I have heard similar comments from friends/co-workers who have dealt with Italian businessmen (small and large companies.) That being said, I have never had any problems with any Italian I have come across, but I haven't ever dealt with them on business terms. What I can say is that IMO, Italy is the MOST BEAUTIFUL country I have ever visited. And the Italian women are the HOTTEST in the world!!! I LOVE Italy and all things Italian!!!


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## Sebastionmerckx (Mar 6, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> alright already - I think you've given this horse all the beating it can take. Rule #1 of racing is don't race on stuff you're going to cry about if/when it breaks. Move on...


 I agree . It sucks you lost your bike but it's time to move on . I had an Orbea Orca last year that I lost when I car ran a stop light and hit me . I never did get paid enough to fully replace everything but I learned to not have a bike that I would not be able to replace if it was destroyed. 
Pinarello's service does indeed suck but through reading all of this ,it has never been completely proved that they owe you a new rig. Again ,it sucks but move on my friend.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*just a note*

theTT and DT are designed to work in tandem (with the HT)
if either tube fails the other will go with it
so if there's a micro-crack in either pipe that fails
what we see here in 2 cases is the end result
if a bad HT weld fails on either tube on any metal bike it will fai ljust the same

so what you need to look for is where does it look like a slower break
and where does it look like an instantaneous catastrophic faiure


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## bianchi bob (Mar 23, 2008)

This played out in a crazy way. So sorry to see this. There has to be some consolation in that you walked away from the incident. Are you the original owner of the bike? The warranty doesn't typically carry over beyond the new bike purchaser.


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## vmajor (Mar 16, 2008)

HBPUNK said:


> how much would it really cost them to replace this? A few hundred dollars maybe, the sweat shop workers in Taiwan making these frames are paid pennies per day probably.


Lol  

No. :mad2: 


V.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*And Reason #.....*

I'll stick to my Max Tubed Merckx
besides the fact that I don't need to replace it

ever


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## adriano (Jan 4, 2009)

*Pinarello Respect*

Folks,

I bought a Pinarello Prince in 2007, It was a special series, the first one sold by Pinarello and it has broken at the same place (top tube) showed in another picture in this Forum. Unfortunately I don't have any picture to show. I saw a lot of comments about Colango also but a friend of mine broke a Colnago Extreme C and Colnago didn't care about it.

It is not about the product, all the company has defects in projects and unfortunately sometimes fail. We have one example now about Mavic R-sys Wheel, a great manufacture that made a mistake and now is doing a recall to replace the front wheel.

What I didn't see in Pinarello and Colnago was a respect regarding their clients. I sent a lot of e-mail telling about the problem, explaining what happened, I sent e-mail in Italian to have sure that they understood my problem and they summarize all of then telling me in one simple line saying "It was an accident, the frame don't broke in this place only riding" and now what I see is some of then broke at the exactly in the same place.

How much it cost to Pinarello change? How much cost for then have happy clients talking and giving good feedbacks about their product and respect.

To conclude, I will never buy a Pinarello again and I will influence everybody who think to buy It to change their mind.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Look had the same issue with their KEO carbon and KEO sprint pedals and they did a recall and replaced all the axles on the pedals. Their customer service was awesome, especially in my case.

However, replacing pedal axles is a lot cheaper than replacing entire frames. Granted, wait until somebody gets killed or paralyzed after one of these frames cracks in half. Assuming that there is actually a manufacturing or design defect in the frame, Pinarello might think differently about a recall after it gets sued for millions of dollars and loses. The big question is whether or not there is a design defect or manufacturing defect.

The one thing that really sucks about Colnago and Pinarello is that they do not have a crash replacement policy. Serotta offers a 5 year crash replacement policy for an additional $250, even if the bike is raced. Sounds like a great insurance policy. Wish I could pay $50 a year for insurance to replace my frame if I break it in a crash.

Customer service is a big deal for me.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I looked at the close ups*

the break looks like you had a crack or micro crack on or near the bottom of you TT
(look where break is cleanest) it spread to the point of total failure and the rest of the damage is from what followed that


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

adriano said:


> I bought a Pinarello Prince in 2007, It was a special series, the first one sold by Pinarello and it has broken at the same place (top tube) showed in another picture in this Forum. Unfortunately I don't have any picture to show.
> 
> It is not about the product, all the company has defects in projects and unfortunately sometimes fail. We have one example now about Mavic R-sys Wheel, a great manufacture that made a mistake and now is doing a recall to replace the front wheel.
> 
> ...


4th CASE!


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

4th CASE REGISTERED, isn't coincidence....but It is not about the product, all the company has defects in projects and unfortunately sometimes fail. Mavic R-sys Wheel, a responsable manufacture that made a mistake and now is doing a recall, and Giant replace the fork, Look KEO, axis ...

I was reading an article in respect of the Prince resurrection: " After an absence of two years, Pinarello has resurrected the Prince 
...Unlike previous versions that mixed aluminium and carbon fibre, the new Prince Carbon is now a full carbon fibre construct ....According to Pinarello, careful design has not only made this latest Prince stronger than before...."

This makes opinion that pinarello corrected some failures....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/newarrivals/01-21

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1965298#poststop


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## ciclisto (Nov 8, 2005)

*Mcf*

Let's see you're a bigoted culo but you chose to earn a living amongst those you despise. I am Italian as are all my relatives back to the 1400's your comment could not go without a retort but you really are not worth an answer. It is so obvious what a f$#ki#g moron you are. You shoulda have a contracta ona your assa, capishe funguolo?
As for the frame regardless of the reason I am not impressed with the response. maybe that's why Colnago uses a heavier reinforced tubing and foregoes the light weight weenie thing. I noticed Colnago employs overseers in Tiawan for it's monocoque clx, cx-1. My C-50 has over 12,000 miles and not a creak, good luck with your frame choice.


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## Bikedued (Dec 4, 2008)

Why buy a 5K frame except to race? That is the solitary purpose of spending that much for a superlight bike, am I wrong? Saving a bike like that for training or slow rides on sunny
days is a little like buying a Ferrari to drive to the convenience store once a week. 
Bikes are more expensive and disposable now, IMHO. It's the very reason I'm looking at a new steel Raleigh at the moment.,,,,BD:thumbsup:


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

There are a lot of reasons to buy a $5,000 frame other than racing. Comfort, weight, bling, and just because one wants to. I am willing to bet that the majority of Colnagos and Ferraris sold are not raced.


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## Cyclingisalive (Jun 22, 2008)

Well Spoken!!!


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## Jimbolaya (Jun 2, 2008)

fabsroman said:


> There are a lot of reasons to buy a $5,000 frame other than racing. Comfort, weight, bling, and just because one wants to. I am willing to bet that the majority of Colnagos and Ferraris sold are not raced.


Ferraris are not for racing. There are much faster and better machines for that.
Like a Nobile M1 for instance.


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## Cyclingisalive (Jun 22, 2008)

I think that if you get a Ferrari - USE IT! it will make you smile all day...I would not use it for racing - but definately use it! You look good, You have a bike that not many have....


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

Cyclingisalive said:


> You have a bike that not many have....


Hummm....and i suggests that other cyclists do not fall into misleading that this can be somebody better..I thought that this could make some great difference...
But I could have died, and I do not want this to happen with somebody else.

Another day watching NatGeo i saw how the neglect of some manufacturers may destroy lives on behalf of money and prestige...and about drive a Ferrari, I prefer ride my bike with tranquillity and safety.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

ciclisto said:


> I noticed Colnago employs overseers in Tiawan for it's monocoque clx, cx-1. My C-50 has over 12,000 miles and not a creak, good luck with your frame choice.


Scrivere in Italiano... è più facile da capire...e bestiemmare meno....


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Then why you race Racing is unsafe by its very nature.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

al0 said:


> Then why you race Racing is unsafe by its very nature.


Clarifying....Risk and unsafe are different. I know about race challenges, and the risks involved. And i try to reduce the risks using materiars that can offer it. When i bougth a carbon frame i believe it's stronger. I believe that a great brand can offer more safe considering the Knowlege and experience.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Risk, by definition, is unsafety. So it is not clear to me how you may so easily differentiate one from another,

I would understand you if you say "reasonable risk" and "unfounded risk".
It is well-known that top-notch frames are performance oriented, not safety oriented. They barely provide with some minimal safety common-sense.





arech said:


> Clarifying....Risk and unsafe are different. I know about race challenges, and the risks involved. And i try to reduce the risks using materiars that can offer it. When i bougth a carbon frame i believe it's stronger. I believe that a great brand can offer more safe considering the Knowlege and experience.


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## simplyhankk (Jan 30, 2008)

arech said:


> F4:13 means: Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."
> 
> My PINARELLO F4:13 BROKE and i'm looking for some answers. I'ts hard to accept this from a HIGH QUALITIY ITALIAN FRAME, if are Italian made!
> 
> ...



It is kind of surprising to see a pinarello breaking in half like that...but if you don't mind me asking, what is the difference between frames made in Taiwan and/or Italy? sure, you pay a higher premium for frames made in Europe, but that does not mean frames made in Asian and/ or elsewhere have lower standards in quality. As the matter of fact, companies like Cervelo, Fuji, and especially Giant, have their frames made in Taiwan and CAN back those frames up with stellar warranties. That's something that pinarello does not offer, according to this in/accident. Chances of frames snapping like that are quite rare (not impossible). Anyways, Taiwan has nothing to do with your pinarello, and best of luck having the frame replaced.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

al0 said:


> Then why you race Racing is unsafe by its very nature.


I think the man's point is that while racing is dangerous, he believes the frame shouldn't have failed in the manner it did, and when it did, the manufacturer should have considered it defective. (Personally I'm not so sure. He took it off-road to avoid an obstacle, and that has to put a lot of stresses on it. On the other hand, when Lance went off-road in the 200? TDF, his frame didn't break. And I did take a road bike off-road at speed once to avoid an obstacle. It didn't break, but it was a 32 pound all steel Schwinn).


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## simplyhankk (Jan 30, 2008)

Lance did have that [email protected]$$ race where he avoided a crash and carried his bike off the hill...almost forgot =)


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

simplyhankk said:


> Lance did have that [email protected]$$ race where he avoided a crash and carried his bike off the hill...almost forgot =)


And then there was Jan Ulrich who missed a turn and went airborne into a small ravine. He carried that bike up with him. I don't remember if he was able to remount it, though.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

arech said:


> I'm from Brazil, the frame was bougth in Spain! !


So how did you get the frame or bike from Spain to Brazil? Could it have been stressed in transit and this break is just a result of that?


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## Eisentraut (Sep 18, 2008)

"On the other hand, when Lance went off-road in the 200? TDF, his frame didn't break."

But keep in mind that Lances frame was one of a few and this Pinerello is one of hundreds and I'm sure that makes a difference. I'm not sure we're talking apples to apples here.


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

al0 said:


> Risk, by definition, is unsafety. So it is not clear to me how you may so easily differentiate one from another..


Risk can be dangerous, and can be calculated. it's possible take some control...


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

Jimbolaya said:


> Ferraris are not for racing. There are much faster and better machines for that.
> Like a Nobile M1 for instance.



Ferraris are not for racing? exactly how many F1 wins does Noble have? 

how many Le Mans wins? 

how many FIA GT wins?



not to disrespect the Noble M1 (an inspired ride), but pick a fight with another car company, because Ferrari _is_ racing.


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## saab2000 (Mar 16, 2004)

Give the guy a break. Pinarellos are expensive and marketed and sold as racing bikes. Race on them. I don't know what really happened, but I have had 'racing' equipment break on me too for inexplicable reasons.

The company should stand behind the product and give the OP a new one or at least a good discount on something new. That'd pretty much make the whole thing go away.

And blaming the rider for racing on good stuff? Huh?


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## arech (Jan 4, 2009)

simplyhankk said:


> ...As the matter of fact, companies like Cervelo, Fuji, and especially Giant, have their frames made in Taiwan and CAN back those frames up with stellar warranties...


Some companies, like Pinarello, give a superficial attention and disrespect their clients, don't offer support for questions like this....

I know a lot of cases that great companies like Specialized, Merida, Trek give attention, replacing frames and offering great condicions...in some cases make more than the expected....Cases like a friend that broke his Specialized frame when drive back his car and hit in the frame. Specialized offer a new frame replacement for 50%!


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

> Give the guy a break.


Looks like Pinarello already have....


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

I would think about sending them a link to this thread, if you haven't already. 
Pin. should at least give you a deal on a new frame if just for racing one of their bikes. 
They should also send you a free jersey and bibs! If I was a bike manufacturer and a guy raced on my bike, and it cracked, and >100's of people knew about it...I would be all over getting him a replacement regardless of the fault. He was "advertising" my bike by riding it and it failed. They would stand to gain more, than they would lose in this situation...


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

A friend of mine is a CFD guy. He said clean breaks around stress areas are typically because of a transition from a stress riser to an unstressed portion. The head tube area is a very reinforced area and the transition to the top/down tubes are decreasing in stress. Thus when it breaks, it is more likely to snap just past the stress riser. It looks very very strange for carbon to clean break like that, since stress areas are/should fail in a predetermined manner. 

Think of the wound fibers in a carbon fiber auto driveshaft, The fibers are layed in a manner so that they're anisotropic, which just means you control how each weave behaves. Some for strength, some for safety/stress control. Prop shafts fray when they break, and with a shaft that spins fast and hard enough to rip a whole through steel firewall, controlling how it fails is rather important.

Thus I'm very surprised that these frames here failed in a clean break fashion. The failures don't give any warning whatsoever. That is scary.


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## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

arech you were racing and crashed your frame and it broke and you havent stopped whinging and putting Pinarello down since. Why should they replace a frame you crashed whilst racing? Get over it! Pinarello make the worlds most sexiest and BEST bikes!!!!


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

> Pinarello make the worlds most sexiest and BEST bikes!!!!


Well, at least that is your opinion on the matter. If my $5,000 frame split in half, I would be whining for quite a while even if I was involved in a horrendous crash. Now, if it split in half because of almost nothing, I would be whining forever.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

fabsroman said:


> Well, at least that is your opinion on the matter. If my $5,000 frame split in half, I would be whining for quite a while even if I was involved in a horrendous crash. Now, if it split in half because of almost nothing, I would be whining forever.


I agree with those who say that technically Pinarello doesn't owe the OP anything. I also agree that they should just cough up a new frame for reasons already mentioned here-

-generating good PR
-keeping a rider who is at least good enough to race on a Pinarello frame


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## Chase15.5 (Feb 17, 2005)

fun thread.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

I would be satisfied to pay at a significant discount for a replacement frame and rebuild at my exp. I think that would be fair. No need to make a profit on a rider that can generate bad PR. How many potential buyers will a thread like this cause to think twice before purchasing this brand? or carbon?


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## maximum7 (Apr 24, 2008)

I already said that. Some one link this thread in an email to Pinarello and then see what happens.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

ok, did not read every post here. Seems common sense though, doesn't it?


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## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

maximum7 said:


> I already said that. Some one link this thread in an email to Pinarello and then see what happens.


What? I might e-mail BMW then and tell them I crashed into to the back of another driver (whilst racing) and now the engine doesnt work properley. I wonder if they will give me a new car.

The guy crashed his bike whist racing. 

As I have said before my Pinarello cracked over 2 & 1/2 years PAST the warranty period and they replaced it without question. They were fantastic!


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Did your beemer frame split in half? I think the issues is that if there is reasonable doubt then perhaps they should assist in a replacement. The scope you are referring to is completely different.


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## awesometown (May 23, 2005)

So this thread has been going on for a while and no one has asked a fundamental question:

Why is it that in cycling do we assume that everytime we break something the company that built the bike is required to help us out? Whether you believe his story or not, he still crashed the bike in a racing situation, plain and simple.

You chose to go out and race it and put it in that situation and its your mess to clean up. 

No one buys a lotus or a zonda or any other "track day" type of super car, crashes it while racing and then walks into the car company's front office demanding a free car.

Take a little responsibility for your actions.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

awesometown said:


> So this thread has been going on for a while and no one has asked a fundamental question:
> 
> Why is it that in cycling do we assume that everytime we break something the company that built the bike is required to help us out? Whether you believe his story or not, he still crashed the bike in a racing situation, plain and simple.
> 
> ...


He didn't crash it. He went off the road and hit nothing. What difference does it make if he "raced" it? That doesn't mean anything. It wasn't a 10 bike pile up. If a frame breaks in half just by veering off the road while hitting nothing, that's pretty sorry..


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## funktekk (Jul 29, 2006)

One of the clear differences is that when tracking your car it is pretty difficult to completely total it. A bike on the other hand will be totaled on almost any incident. 

Another thing to think about is that these high end bikes are designated as race bikes. When you buy a car it is a street car. 

I like the companies who give you crash replacement programs. 

Think about it like this; you are a prospective bike buyer, so you go to the local crit to see what the experts are riding. At the race you see nothing but 4 year old beaters. What are you going to buy? 

Companies need to support amateur racing. One place they can help is on crash replacement.


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## awesometown (May 23, 2005)

Richieg said:


> He didn't crash it. He went off the road and hit nothing. What difference does it make if he "raced" it? That doesn't mean anything. It wasn't a 10 bike pile up. If a frame breaks in half just by veering off the road while hitting nothing, that's pretty sorry..


You didn't answer my question. What makes cyclists seem so entitled to a new frame no matter what, every time one breaks? And whether you like it or not, racing often voids the warranty... But thats just the risk we take to compete on top quality equipment. Its just that... a risk.


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## r_mutt (Aug 8, 2007)

awesometown said:


> You didn't answer my question. What makes cyclists seem so entitled to a new frame no matter what, every time one breaks? And whether you like it or not, racing often voids the warranty... But thats just the risk we take to compete on top quality equipment. Its just that... a risk.



have you read the entire thread? did you read his description of the so-called accident?

please read his description of the event and ask yourself if this is considered a "racing incident".


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

awesometown said:


> You didn't answer my question. What makes cyclists seem so entitled to a new frame no matter what, every time one breaks? And whether you like it or not, racing often voids the warranty... But thats just the risk we take to compete on top quality equipment. Its just that... a risk.


 If it breaks by just riding down the road, then yes you should get a new one. A frame shouldn't break by veering off the road (unless you hit something very hard) Never said everyone deserves a new frame if it's broken...Yea, if you crash and actually hit something..then no, you don't deserve a new one. but that's not the case here. The man never crashed it..he crashed becasue it broke in half..


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## awesometown (May 23, 2005)

r_mutt said:


> have you read the entire thread? did you read his description of the so-called accident?
> 
> please read his description of the event and ask yourself if this is considered a "racing incident".


I most certainly did and as you know, there's always more to the story. If this frame is so weak that it breaks from riding on the grass, then this is the lawsuit of a lifetime. Plus he's used the bike for racing the entire time he's owned it. Therefore he voids the warranty by RACING IT.


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## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Where I grew up, his type of bike was called a 'racing' bike for obvious reasons. They are designed to be raced and should be able to handle it. That apart, the circumstances of the damage should always influence the question of whether or not it is a warranty situation.


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## T-Dog (Mar 21, 2008)

awesometown said:


> So this thread has been going on for a while and no one has asked a fundamental question:
> 
> Why is it that in cycling do we assume that everytime we break something the company that built the bike is required to help us out? Whether you believe his story or not, he still crashed the bike in a racing situation, plain and simple.
> 
> ...


awesometown you are absolutley spot on!


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

*yadda, yadda, yadda......*

Reading all the speculation is humorous; "it just snapped", "$5,000 frame", "Ferraris are not for racing", yadda, yadda, yadda...


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## CougarTrek (May 5, 2008)

Alex_C said:


> Pinarello's crash replacement policy for my 16 month old F4:13 was a 25% discount off a new $2,700 frame / fork combination. No, thank you very much.
> 
> My frame's top tube was shattered from a crash at 22mph - broken collar bone for me. I bought it new and was not racing.


You admit you crashed. Done deal. I can't think of a single warranty on ANY bike that covers crash damage, and they shouldn't. Pretty darn sure your broken collar bone had way more to do with the fact that you crashed than the fact that your frame's top tube "snapped" when it hit the pavement. At that point you were already SOL.

Crash replacement "discount" doesn't sound far off par for other manufacturers either.


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## Alex_C (Aug 21, 2006)

*Cougar -*

You're missing my point. I am not the OP. Everyone has added their opinion on this. I wanted to shed some reality of what Pinarello will offer as crash replacement.


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

awesometown said:


> So this thread has been going on for a while and no one has asked a fundamental question:
> 
> Why is it that in cycling do we assume that everytime we break something the company that built the bike is required to help us out? Whether you believe his story or not, he still crashed the bike in a racing situation, plain and simple.
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges- the machines, in terms of complication, chances for abuse, and damage caused by user error just don't compare. Even so, I bet if some exotic super car maker recognized damage clearly caused by a defect and not abuse, they'd repair it even if their warranty specifically excluded track damage. And that's essentially what the original complaint is, that the failure was caused by a defect, not a crash, and that defect was detected while going down a grass covered hill. I'm personally not so sure. You can put a lot of load on a bike going off road with it- one of the reasons mountain bikes are so heavily built. The OP claims otherwise, but I bet his adrenaline was pumping pretty good when he hit that grass. Hmmm- you know, maybe he can borrow a someone's Madone and take it down the same hill at the same speed to prove how harmless it is. Luckily, I don't have a Madone to offer


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## Jimbolaya (Jun 2, 2008)

I disagree. If you follow exotic cars, then you know that they have a lot of problems that need to be fixed at the owners expense. It's kinda expected. also, the price is really negotiable. For instance, the tesla electric cars just jumped in price after people put down their deposits. If you have the money for a deposit, you don't complain about these little things. High end motocycles are the same. If you crash your $70,000 (edit) ducati Desmocedici RR, Ducati will be happy to replace the necessary parts at you expense. How is the potential for user error any different? 

Most companies have a strict criteria for what is considered crash damage and what is considered manufacturing defect. Pinarello is probably dropping the ball here, but it does look like crash damage. I know the OP said he was riding over grass. What was under the grass? Dirt, Gravel, Logs? How far do he make it before the frame let loose? 10 feet? 75 feet? Maybe it should have held up better. Maybe he has going pretty fast (racing after all) and the bike wend down on the loose material. At high speed, can you tell the difference between sliding out and frame failure. It would happen pretty quick either way. Ultimately, it's a really light carbon bike that doesn't have much of a factor of safety and is prone to brittle (quick) failures. I would say that the lighter more expensive bikes are pushing the safety factors more than other carbon bikes. It's an accentent waiting to happen. 
-J



California L33 said:


> Apples and oranges- the machines, in terms of complication, chances for abuse, and damage caused by user error just don't compare. Even so, I bet if some exotic super car maker recognized damage clearly caused by a defect and not abuse, they'd repair it even if their warranty specifically excluded track damage. And that's essentially what the original complaint is, that the failure was caused by a defect, not a crash, and that defect was detected while going down a grass covered hill. I'm personally not so sure. You can put a lot of load on a bike going off road with it- one of the reasons mountain bikes are so heavily built. The OP claims otherwise, but I bet his adrenaline was pumping pretty good when he hit that grass. Hmmm- you know, maybe he can borrow a someone's Madone and take it down the same hill at the same speed to prove how harmless it is. Luckily, I don't have a Madone to offer


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2008)

Dude, the OP did not crash and your examples do not apply. What does pricing on a Tesla have to do with a broken frame, and that is the cheapest Ducati in the WORLD.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Jimbolaya said:


> I disagree. If you follow exotic cars, then you know that they have a lot of problems that need to be fixed at the owners expense. It's kinda expected. also, the price is really negotiable. For instance, the tesla electric cars just jumped in price after people put down their deposits. If you have the money for a deposit, you don't complain about these little things. High end motocycles are the same. If you crash your $70 ducati Desmocedici RR, Ducati will be happy to replace the necessary parts at you expense. How is the potential for user error any different?
> 
> Most companies have a strict criteria for what is considered crash damage and what is considered manufacturing defect. Pinarello is probably dropping the ball here, but it does look like crash damage. I know the OP said he was riding over grass. What was under the grass? Dirt, Gravel, Logs? How far do he make it before the frame let loose? 10 feet? 75 feet? Maybe it should have held up better. Maybe he has going pretty fast (racing after all) and the bike wend down on the loose material. At high speed, can you tell the difference between sliding out and frame failure. It would happen pretty quick either way. Ultimately, it's a really light carbon bike that doesn't have much of a factor of safety and is prone to brittle (quick) failures. I would say that the lighter more expensive bikes are pushing the safety factors more than other carbon bikes. It's an accentent waiting to happen.
> -J


 I have a very wealthy friend that has three Ferrari's (360 Stradale, 599 , F430 light weight) The 360 was delivered with spots in the paint. What did Ferrari do? They offered to give him a new one or have the original car repainted. The car also had problems with the door latch braking..they replaced it twice before the problem was solved. They didn't respond with "sorry chump, your SOL, fix all these problems at your own expense"

Just wondering how many "super cars" you have experience with? I don't think "electric" cars are in the "super car" catagory... 

If you crash a Ducati becasue it breaks in half while riding, you would have a major lawsuit.


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## Jimbolaya (Jun 2, 2008)

Richieg said:


> If you crash a Ducati becasue it breaks in half while riding, you would have a major lawsuit.


Ducati wouldn't give you the time of day if you said "oh yeah, I was out racing, I went off course, the frame broke and then I crashed because the frame broke." It doesn't make sense. The frame was used for something it was not designed for. Your lawsuit would be thrown out.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

Jimbolaya said:


> Ducati wouldn't give you the time of day if you said "oh yeah, I was out racing, I went off course, the frame broke and then I crashed because the frame broke." It doesn't make sense. The frame was used for something it was not designed for. Your lawsuit would be thrown out.


 If you take a stock Ducati to a track and it breaks in half without accident, I doubt it would be thrown out. If you can prove the frame was defective from the factory, you would have a case. Ducati's are raced every day of the week.. If the bike was modified, then that would be a different story. Never heard of a Ducati braking in half while riding on a track without an accident.

By the way, my friend that has the three Ferrari's, he's one of to top 50 wrongfull death lawyers in the nation. I'm sure he knows more about these cases than you...


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

Richieg said:


> By the way, my friend that has the three Ferrari's, he's one of to top 50 wrongfull death lawyers in the nation. I'm sure he knows more about these cases than you...


Well *my* friend owns 35 Cocker Spaniels, so there.

Of all the threads on RBR I've read over the years, this one has grown into the most asinine of all. Same goes for its little sister version.

How long do they have to circle the drain before they get locked?

Anyway, I thought I'd do my bit to prolong this one. It truly needs to get to 4 pages to become a proper legend.


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## Richieg (Sep 16, 2006)

dave2pvd said:


> Well *my* friend owns 35 Cocker Spaniels, so there.
> 
> Of all the threads on RBR I've read over the years, this one has grown into the most asinine of all. Same goes for its little sister version.
> 
> ...


 Well, my friend has 36 Cocker Spaniels,,, So there


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## California L33 (Jan 20, 2006)

dave2pvd said:


> How long do they have to circle the drain before they get locked?


If you don't like the thread why do you read it? Why do you need Big Brother to step in and lock it if you get irritated by people disagreeing? Just stop reading it, step above the fray, and let the asinin-ness continue without disturbing you. Better yet start a more interesting thread about your Cocker-Spaniel powered bike


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## Jimbolaya (Jun 2, 2008)

No one but the OP really knows what happened. Pinarello can only go on what they see from the broken frame. It looks like crash damage, but I'm no expert. no bike maker can just replace frames from every heartbroken customer that comes back with some sob story about "just riding along". If it looks like a defect, then you would expect to get a warrentee claim. If it looks like crash damage, well your SOL. This is the same with MTB's or road bikes, Trek, Giant, or anyone in the industry. 




Richieg said:


> Never heard of a Ducati braking in half while riding on a track without an accident.


Ducati's don't break because they have steel frames. :thumbsup:


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