# 2008 Fondriest Now Made in Taiwan?



## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Is the 2008 Fondriest line really worth the price?

My friend just got his supposedly 'Made in Italy' TF1 that he ordered when he was over there for New Years and the Fondriest box it came in yesterday said 'Manufacturered in Taiwan'. How disappointing is that? It's like a bait and switch. False advertisement. 

I have to admit that the paint quality of old is really missing from his 2008 frameset. There was paint in the BB cups and all thru the headset area. Micro bubbles in the clear coat. Not too much attention was paid in the details of this $3000+ purchase. He was pretty disappointed. In fact, I think he's going to send it back for a refund.  

First impressions are so hard to change. Not a good way to resurrect the brand again.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

LoL, I just made the same comment on the Argon18 TT thread. 

Everyone outsources because it's soooooo much cheaper. Some companies will never do that like Trek since they're so big now. 

But smaller niche companies who sell high end will have to, since that's where more R&D cash will come from

On top of that, Taiwan is pretty good stuff. Their manufacture isn't that inferior the Western countries. China is the only exception, they can't even make toys for god's sake!


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## kcdoc (Dec 30, 2007)

*actually really common now...*

that isnt too unusual with CF frames. In fact, the majority of CF is produced in Taiwan and with pretty high production standards actually. You name the brand, chances are they are producing SOME of their frames there (Pinarello, Colnago, Kuota, Kestrel, etc...). It is cheaper and far more efficient for them to do this. By doing this they can make the bikes more affordable. There are some interesting websites that go into quite a bit of detail on this, and list a 'whos who' of manufacturers producing in Taiwan/China (cant think of the webaddresses). 
As far as how they advertise where the bike was made, that can be based on where the majority of the final prep and build up is done, not necessarily on where the frame is manufactured. A bit misleading no doubt.

Seems like outsourcing is way too common nowadays. Kind of sucks, if you ask me...So much for a purebred Italian ride!


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## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

That and most every other CF frame on the planet.


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## Sub (Feb 13, 2004)

my new scott CR1 has a "made in Taiwan" sticker on the bottom of the bottom bracket. They don't necessarily do the design, just the manufacturing process. I have no problems with it.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Well, well, well this again*

and I am glad it keeps coming up because it really should bother people. Not that these frames are made in Taiwan or China, but rather the shady way some companies market their frames as "Made In Italy". Look, these frames shouldn't cost what they do if they are made in China. 
Saw 3 Cervelos in LBS last weekend and looked them over with a sharp eye and say many imperfections(albeit cosmetic) in the finish that looked like little pock marks in the clearcoat on top tubes. Not too appealing for a $6k bike. 

Watched "Riding the Tour" on Discovery and you can see them making the Madones in US plant. Proof that there is no reason frames made for $1 per hour labor in China to cost the same if not more.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

master2129 said:


> Is the 2008 Fondriest line really worth the price?
> 
> My friend just got his supposedly 'Made in Italy' TF1 that he ordered when he was over there for New Years and the Fondriest box it came in yesterday said 'Manufacturered in Taiwan'. How disappointing is that? It's like a bait and switch. False advertisement.
> 
> ...



Did you just figure out that bike frames aren't made where they say they are???


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

They're not??!!! My Cervelo says Made in China. I wonder if it was really made in Wisconsin


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## caleb (Jan 31, 2007)

Sounds like your buddy bought a $3000 Pedal Force frame. 

That means the Fondriest logos only cost $2550.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

That is a shame. Fondriest have gone down in my esteem now.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Common practice (Fondriest, Orbea et al.)*



master2129 said:


> My friend just got his supposedly 'Made in Italy' TF1 that he ordered when he was over there for New Years and the Fondriest box it came in yesterday said 'Manufacturered in Taiwan'. How disappointing is that? It's like a bait and switch. False advertisement.


It's legal. I do agree that Fondriest’s well-known “Made in Italy” slight-of-hand is designed to mislead the buyer and, unfortunately, often succeeds in doing so.

Consumers often believe that U.S. standards for country-of-origin markings apply to other countries as well. This is not true. For Italian goods, U.S. Customs requires only that the non-Italian content in a product marked “Made in Italy” be "substantially transformed" in Italy. Thus, the product could have been merely assembled or finished in Italy using components from many different countries and still claim Italian origin under U.S. Customs law. After inspecting and applying decals to non-Italian frames, it’s perfectly legal for Fondriest to slap a “Made in Italy” sticker on them, build up the bikes and send the container on to the U.S.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

the_rydster said:


> That is a shame. Fondriest have gone down in my esteem now.


An experiment should be done...

Riders should ride Taiwan frames and US made frames in like a double blind test with no brand labels. 

I honestly don't think many would be able to tell the difference.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

CleavesF said:


> An experiment should be done...
> 
> Riders should ride Taiwan frames and US made frames in like a double blind test with no brand labels.
> 
> I honestly don't think many would be able to tell the difference.


I would have to agree with you. But that's not my point. My point is that if you're going to charge $3000+ for just a frame, fork and headset with the belief that if was being handmade in Italy and then find out it was slapped together in Taiwan by a machine, then that's where I have the problem with the 'Made in Italy' sticker. It's just a real let down. Especially from a brand that I USED to really respect as a hardcore Italian Brand.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

master2129 said:


> I would have to agree with you. But that's not my point. My point is that if you're going to charge $3000+ for just a frame, fork and headset with the belief that if was being handmade in Italy and then find out it was slapped together in Taiwan by a machine, then that's where I have the problem with the 'Made in Italy' sticker. It's just a real let down. Especially from a brand that I USED to really respect as a hardcore Italian Brand.


I would venture a guess that a carbon frame coming out of a low fault repeatable machine process is quite likely to be of higher quality than a similar frame "built by hand"


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## nickb4 (Jan 24, 2006)

*Surprised?*



master2129 said:


> Is the 2008 Fondriest line really worth the price?
> 
> My friend just got his supposedly 'Made in Italy' TF1 that he ordered when he was over there for New Years and the Fondriest box it came in yesterday said 'Manufacturered in Taiwan'. How disappointing is that? It's like a bait and switch. False advertisement.
> 
> ...


I remember reading a pretty long thread you started a few months back about the reintroduction of Fondriest, your conversations with reps from the distributor and your subsequent frame selection. Certainly, you should not be too surprised about where the frame is made.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

master2129 said:


> I would have to agree with you. But that's not my point. My point is that if you're going to charge $3000+ for just a frame, fork and headset with the belief that if was being handmade in Italy and then find out it was slapped together in Taiwan by a machine, then that's where I have the problem with the 'Made in Italy' sticker. It's just a real let down. Especially from a brand that I USED to really respect as a hardcore Italian Brand.


I know what you mean. Lots of companies are better about it, my Raleigh for example:

On the frame it says "Engineered in the USA/GB", and "Made in Taiwan"

That's how the Italians should do it.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

CleavesF said:


> I know what you mean. Lots of companies are better about it, my Raleigh for example:
> 
> On the frame it says "Engineered in the USA/GB", and "Made in Taiwan"
> 
> That's how the Italians should do it.


Probably cuts into the profit margin if they order two sets of stickers.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

toomanybikes said:


> I would venture a guess that a carbon frame coming out of a low fault repeatable machine process is quite likely to be of higher quality than a similar frame "built by hand"


Hmm toomany...and how many mass produced plastic framesets do you own? :wink:


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

... I thought some of the lower end non OCLV Treks were made in Taiwan...


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

I'm going to take really good care of my two 2005 Fondriests, which I'm reasonably sure were made in Italy. Then, when I'm ready for a new bike, I will get the Carl Strong 953 custom I've been lusting over...... likely with geometry very similar to the Fondriests. Best of both worlds and maybe cheaper too. FWIW, my Obea TT bike had a very discreet "Made in China" sticker on the bottom of the BB, came packed in a box from Spain, and it looks and rides great.


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

Akirasho said:


> ... I thought some of the lower end non OCLV Treks were made in Taiwan...


That's somewhat true...

From my understanding all full carbon OCLV frame are WI made. Frames like the 2100 with OCLV stays and aluminum alpha main triangles are made in Taiwan, but I think the OCLV is still made in the US. They just ship the OCLV parts to their factory there. 

So all OCLV is US made. Especially since Trek won't even patent the stuff, not even the old OCLV, I can't see them making it somewhere else.

EDIT: Whoops misread. All NON-OCLV are mostly from Taiwan, my 4300 is actually from China. Not until you get to 6900 series (for mtb) that you get US made.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2008)

the_rydster said:


> Hmm toomany...and how many mass produced plastic framesets do you own? :wink:



Exactly the same as the number of small batch handmade plastic frames I own.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

nickb4 said:


> I remember reading a pretty long thread you started a few months back about the reintroduction of Fondriest, your conversations with reps from the distributor and your subsequent frame selection. Certainly, you should not be too surprised about where the frame is made.


Actually I am VERY surprised since the rep said that the frames were all "still handmade in Italy like the Fondriest of old." I feel like I got fed a line. And I bit down real hard. That was the only reason I placed the pre-order. Needless to say, I have since canceled my order and won't be purchasing another Fondriest again until they can assure me that their frames are made where they say they are and that the paint quality will be improved over time.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

*if they can't get the finish right*



Lazyrider said:


> and I am glad it keeps coming up because it really should bother people. Not that these frames are made in Taiwan or China, but rather the shady way some companies market their frames as "Made In Italy". Look, these frames shouldn't cost what they do if they are made in China.
> Saw 3 Cervelos in LBS last weekend and *looked them over with a sharp eye and say many imperfections(albeit cosmetic)* in the finish that looked like little pock marks in the clearcoat on top tubes. Not too appealing for a $6k bike.



But that is part of the issue. If they can't even get the finish (cosmetic part) correct, how do we know that the layup process is any good???

zac


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

zac said:


> But that is part of the issue. If they can't even get the finish (cosmetic part) correct, how do we know that the layup process is any good???
> 
> zac


Zac I think this concerns any buyer purchasing a frame over $3000. If the visible details are not addressed by QA, then the bonding and lay up process must not be scrutinized that closely either. Who knows what the heck you are riding on. And no one wants to find out on a 60+ MPH decent down the side of a mountain either.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

master2129 said:


> Zac I think this concerns any buyer purchasing a frame over $3000. If the visible details are not addressed by QA, then the bonding and lay up process must not be scrutinized that closely either. Who knows what the heck you are riding on. And no one wants to find out on a 60+ MPH decent down the side of a mountain either.


Exactly, and it seems Lazyrider and others get it too, but there are a couple of posts in here with the comment, (paraphasing): "I'm not bothered by that type of detail." 

Not only should you all be outraged that so-called "high end" carbon frames are outsourced, but that they are charging "high end" prices for said pieces of crap. And crap is what it is.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Zac, I agree with you about the pricing,*

but many of the frames out of Taiwan/China aren't "crap" but just way way overpriced. But like all of the "economists" on this site like to educate me about the free market and what people are willing to pay, there are many more people that if they did their homework wouldn't pay these ridiculous prices that these Made in China frames are fetching because of name brand. Especially when some of these same frames are rebranded and sold under differnet names for fractions of the price. 

Look at Trek with there HUGE advertising costs (the largest compared to anyone) plus the fact that they are made in US (OCLVs), yet they cost less than Cervelos made in China. LOL, and people aren't getting ripped off? C'mon now. 



zac said:


> Exactly, and it seems Lazyrider and others get it too, but there are a couple of posts in here with the comment, (paraphasing): "I'm not bothered by that type of detail."
> 
> Not only should you all be outraged that so-called "high end" carbon frames are outsourced, but that they are charging "high end" prices for said pieces of crap. And crap is what it is.


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## bing181 (Oct 17, 2005)

master2129 said:


> Actually I am VERY surprised since the rep said that the frames were all "still handmade in Italy like the Fondriest of old."


Well, even some of the earlier carbon frames were made in Taiwan, so that's a bit of a porky.

But surely this is all part of the "ambiguity" (let's be generous ..) surrounding new Fondriest. I would have thought that the jury's still out - though would love to believe that the new Fondriests are all the older ones were, though as it's a completely different company ???

B


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Lazyrider said:


> but many of the frames out of Taiwan/China aren't "crap" but just way way overpriced. But like all of the "economists" on this site like to educate me about the free market and what people are willing to pay, there are many more people that if they did their homework wouldn't pay these ridiculous prices that these Made in China frames are fetching because of name brand. Especially when some of these same frames are rebranded and sold under differnet names for fractions of the price.
> 
> Look at Trek with there HUGE advertising costs (the largest compared to anyone) plus the fact that they are made in US (OCLVs), yet they cost less than Cervelos made in China. LOL, and people aren't getting ripped off? C'mon now.



It's not economics...it's MARKETING 101. How many people see beyond the fancy "pro" look lables/paint jobs and truly understand what they are riding? Did they look into the frame maker, the reputation, the process? Luckily on the component side both Campy and Shimano make top level parts and their engineering and process are, well, second to none (pun intended).

But on the frame side what the hell does "made in China/Tiawan" mean? While you may be able to ascertain, eventually, where a particular frame was made, chances are you will never know for certain. 

It's funny people dump on Trek for being non-exotic. Yet they ride some often rebadged generic processed carbon frame of unknown origin that cost more than my ride. Boy I just have to smile. 

Zac


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

I think there should be a forum just for the folks that want to complain about where a given bike frame is made.


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## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

But the problem here isn't necessarily where the bike is made, it is that Fondriest leads you to believe they are made in Italy, rather than in Taiwan. I have no problem with Taiwan manufactured products, but I don't like being misled, if not outright lied to.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

bwana said:


> But the problem here isn't necessarily where the bike is made, it is that Fondriest leads you to believe they are made in Italy, rather than in Taiwan. I have no problem with Taiwan manufactured products, but I don't like being misled, if not outright lied to.


Really, it makes me all teary eyed. I really don't care. Where a bike is made means zero to me. Uhm, I buy them to ride. I'd say if people are really concerned about such things, then maybe they ought to re-examine the reasons why such things knot their panties.

Personally, I think it's a hoot watching everyone gnash their teeth because their Caligliani was made in Eritrea instead of Sardinia like they had thought or dreamed or had been told. Of all the things to worry about or be upset about, such things as this don't even make the list.

Golly, I guess I should be happy 'cuz I can enjoy my bike for what it does instead of what I imagined it to be in some fantasy.


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## zero85ZEN (Oct 11, 2002)

I'm seriously thinking of getting in on the current Pedal Force group buy, picking up one of the nude frames and having a set of really nice Fondriest stickers made for it. Actually I'd have a much nicer Fondy than the Fondy you can buy out of the same mold (Pedal Force model is 1K weave as opposed to Fondy's 12K and is substantially lighter) for only $450 plus cost of the sticker set. (I'll bet a hundred $ or so would get me a really nice set of decals.) 

So, a lighter frame with a five year warranty and for a fraction of the price.


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## Spezzoto (Dec 17, 2004)

*Knowledge is freedom.*

Finnaly people are getting the point.
In some italian companies defense maybe 10% of those frames that are made in taiwan are painted there. They go back to Italy as raw carbon frame to be paint in Italy.

I said this because people are generalizing on this topic. 
I think that 90% of the Monoscocca frames(mold made) are made in Asia.
You need to get a Columbus, Dedacciai or Easton tubing to get a frame made in Italy that is about 99.9 percent Italian.

Prices are high because the companies need to recover all the publicity and advertisement cost...

Nothing more for now.


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

Forrest Root said:


> Really, it makes me all teary eyed. I really don't care. Where a bike is made means zero to me. Uhm, I buy them to ride. I'd say if people are really concerned about such things, then maybe they ought to re-examine the reasons why such things knot their panties.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a hoot watching everyone gnash their teeth because their Caligliani was made in Eritrea instead of Sardinia like they had thought or dreamed or had been told. Of all the things to worry about or be upset about, such things as this don't even make the list.
> 
> Golly, I guess I should be happy 'cuz I can enjoy my bike for what it does instead of what I imagined it to be in some fantasy.



I agree with you 100%

Furthermore, I wonder if folks are really concered about the quality of the product or the frame's orgin. It seems like the latter more than the former. It reminds me of when people wanted "French Fries" changed to "Freedom Fries".


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## jordan (Feb 2, 2002)

Fondriest has been selling carbon frames made in Taiwan/painted in Italy and labeled made in Italy since at least 2003.The P4, for example.Now it seems they are both made and painted in Taiwan.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

a) If you look on Italian ebay you'll see lots of naked carbon frames for cheap, and some of them look like brands we are familiar with. There are well known brands that used to build bikes that now just get the carbon frames from Asia through a distributor, have them painted and their logos applied here in Italy. 

b) I was in a shop (in Italy) recently and asked the owner about a particular carbon frame he had with a "MADE IN ITALY" on the chainguard. He said, "That's the only thing made in Italy (the chainguard)." 

I don't think it's good business for the Italian's to mark something MADE IN ITALY when it's not. That's a slippery slope.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*You seem to be the most affected by this topic*

yet you are the one who purports not to care about this issue. However, you keep responding repeatedly to these threads. Bottom line is that it bothers people to know that traditional Italian frame makers that always marketed their products as "Italian heritage" are now being made at low wages in China. Ridley and Cervelo are in the same boat. Ridley slaps Made in Belgium stickers on the frames. Should be called "RIDicLEYOUs".





Forrest Root said:


> Really, it makes me all teary eyed. I really don't care. Where a bike is made means zero to me. Uhm, I buy them to ride. I'd say if people are really concerned about such things, then maybe they ought to re-examine the reasons why such things knot their panties.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a hoot watching everyone gnash their teeth because their Caligliani was made in Eritrea instead of Sardinia like they had thought or dreamed or had been told. Of all the things to worry about or be upset about, such things as this don't even make the list.
> 
> Golly, I guess I should be happy 'cuz I can enjoy my bike for what it does instead of what I imagined it to be in some fantasy.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

Lazyrider said:


> yet you are the one who purports not to care about this issue. However, you keep responding repeatedly to these threads. Bottom line is that it bothers people to know that traditional Italian frame makers that always marketed their products as "Italian heritage" are now being made at low wages in China. Ridley and Cervelo are in the same boat. Ridley slaps Made in Belgium stickers on the frames. Should be called "RIDicLEYOUs".


Have you just realized this is going on?

It has been the case for many years - most of the bike brands now-a-days are marketing machines selling bike frames that have come out of the same half dozen factories in Taiwian or China, or increasingly Vietnam or Indonesia.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

toomanybikes said:


> Have you just realized this is going on?
> 
> It has been the case for many years - most of the bike brands now-a-days are marketing machines selling bike frames that have come out of the same half dozen factories in Taiwian or China, or increasingly Vietnam or Indonesia.


I think the thing that has gotten everyone rowled up about this topic is the fact that something is being represented as one thing when clearly its something else. On our club ride this morning we talked about this as a group and many of our guys ride on Bianchi and they get all p'd when they find out that Bianchi is now making their top end frames in Taiwan too. Fondriest, Colnago and Bianchi are all, in my simple mind, the poster children for the MADE IN ITALY banner. To know that they have all somewhat 'sold out' is just disappointing. To add salt to the open wound is that they continue to charge prices as if they still handmake every frame in Italy. That is what has me personally all fired up. Forget about build quality. This is just pure ethical principle that has my boxers in a knot. (Forrest that was for you  )

Honestly, I think that if they were open about their frame origins, comsumers like us would not be so hot about this topic.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

master2129 said:


> I think the thing that has gotten everyone rowled up about this topic is the fact that something is being represented as one thing when clearly its something else. On our club ride this morning we talked about this as a group and many of our guys ride on Bianchi and they get all p'd when they find out that Bianchi is now making their top end frames in Taiwan too. Fondriest, Colnago and Bianchi are all, in my simple mind, the poster children for the MADE IN ITALY banner. To know that they have all somewhat 'sold out' is just disappointing. To add salt to the open wound is that they continue to charge prices as if they still handmake every frame in Italy. That is what has me personally all fired up. Forget about build quality. This is just pure ethical principle that has my boxers in a knot. (Forrest that was for you  )
> 
> Honestly, I think that if they were open about their frame origins, comsumers like us would not be so hot about this topic.


It isn't a case that they are "now" being made in Taiwan.

The Bianchi I bought in 1983 was made in Taiwan. It ain't new, and it has never been hidden or kept quiet.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

So who actually makes frames in Italy then?

/when I say 'make', I mean as a bare minimum take stock tubing and cut/shape/work/assemble into a frame.

//smugly content that my Time is actually made where it purports to be made.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

toomanybikes said:


> It isn't a case that they are "now" being made in Taiwan.
> 
> The Bianchi I bought in 1983 was made in Taiwan. It ain't new, and it has never been hidden or kept quiet.


I should have clarified. I meant the High End $5000 Frameset that my friends ride and thought were made in Italy.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

the_rydster said:


> So who actually makes frames in Italy then?
> 
> /when I say 'make', I mean as a bare minimum take stock tubing and cut/shape/work/assemble into a frame.
> 
> //smugly content that my Time is actually made where it purports to be made.


It says "made in Tunisia"?


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2008)

toomanybikes said:


> It says "made in Tunisia"?


No that is Look.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

If you're including steel frames, Mondonico. Torelli's are made in the same factory - in Northern Italy.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Lazyrider said:


> yet you are the one who purports not to care about this issue. However, you keep responding repeatedly to these threads. Bottom line is that it bothers people to know that traditional Italian frame makers that always marketed their products as "Italian heritage" are now being made at low wages in China. Ridley and Cervelo are in the same boat. Ridley slaps Made in Belgium stickers on the frames. Should be called "RIDicLEYOUs".


Golly, you do presume a lot, don't you? I responded to this because I think it's hilarious that people are getting all bent about this. Of all the things to get bent about in life, this one ranks as one of the most silly.

Again, the knowledge about where certain frames are made is common. Full stop. If that chafes your thighs, don't buy the frame. Simple. If you bought it and you're tweaked, you deserve it because you didn't take the minimal effort to research the petty thing that is apparently important to you.

Heritage my arse. "Heritage" has always been a marketing word and has never been any indication of quality or anything other than the manufacturer's desire to capitalize on some event or history completely unrelated to how their product performs.

Go, China!


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## Spezzoto (Dec 17, 2004)

*The question is what is made in Italy? Not who.*

A company might do half of its frames in Asia and the other half in Italy.
Guerciotti, Somec, Sab, Spezzotto, Cinelli, Bianchi...
Those are some of the companies that when they do a frame in tubings made by Columbus, dedacciai or Easton they have to glue then or solder them.

I mention before that maybe 90% of the Monoscocca frames are made in Asia.

That is why I love mine done to measurement up to the centimeter. Because I know that it was done in Italy. But they might buy the tubes and the joints from Asia...

Also I want to bring to attention that when a custom frame has bubbles or too much clear coat that is not a big deal. Remember this frames are paint by a human hand and not by a machine.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Carrera Phibra is made in Italy*

A review here went out of the way to say it was 100% made in Italy.



the_rydster said:


> So who actually makes frames in Italy then?
> 
> /when I say 'make', I mean as a bare minimum take stock tubing and cut/shape/work/assemble into a frame.
> 
> //smugly content that my Time is actually made where it purports to be made.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*I agree with da master...*



master2129 said:


> I think the thing that has gotten everyone rowled up about this topic is the fact that something is being represented as one thing when clearly its something else. On our club ride this morning we talked about this as a group and many of our guys ride on Bianchi and they get all p'd when they find out that Bianchi is now making their top end frames in Taiwan too. Fondriest, Colnago and Bianchi are all, in my simple mind, the poster children for the MADE IN ITALY banner. To know that they have all somewhat 'sold out' is just disappointing. To add salt to the open wound is that they continue to charge prices as if they still handmake every frame in Italy. That is what has me personally all fired up. Forget about build quality. This is just pure ethical principle that has my boxers in a knot. (Forrest that was for you  )
> 
> Honestly, I think that if they were open about their frame origins, comsumers like us would not be so hot about this topic.


It is all about the companies being open and honest about their products. I recently commented on a poster's Pinarello Prince Carbon (which by the way is absolutely stunning) because I saw a "Made in Italy" sticker on the seattube and questioned the veracity of that sticker. He got a little bent out of shape for it. I recalled that the head Pinarello dude Fausto Pinarello stated that ALL of their carbon frames were made in Taiwan because they could not reproduce the quality of frames that some of the Taiwanese companies could make without prices becoming astronomical. Fair enough with that statement. But then here is my 2 bones of contention on this: 1) Why slap the "Made in Italy" sticker on their frames?; 2) $5000 for a Prince Carbon is NOT astronomical or at least a little inflated?? The Prince Carbon may be the end-all be-all of frame technology but should it really be that expensive? After all Fausto stated the reason he went to Taiwan for the manufacturing was to the lower cost. Well it seems to me that he is a very smart business man- he lowered his per unit production cost by a very large margin but was able to convince consumers that his frames are still worth the 5 G's he charged for his top-end frames that were once really made in Italy. And hey in true free market fashion, if people are willing to pay it, more power to them. I am not judging anyone who has or is considering shelling out that kind of money for a "Made in Italy" Taiwanese-produced Pinarello. It is just that I wouldn't do it on principle. 

As for Fondreist and the rep who told a bold face lie to master about the manufacturing of their new frames, you've lost an avid fan of your frames. I have an '02 Carb Level that rates as one of my favorite rides ever. Companies like Fondriest, Pinarello, and Bianchi should be up front and honest about their products, that is all we are saying. 

On a side note, I am still searching for my new ride, and the Bianchi 928 SL is still one of the finalist but I can't trust that the frame is indeed made in Italy as the sticker says. But at $2500 even if it is not made in Italy, it seems a fair price for a excellent frameset. Another frameset that has come back into the picture is the Bianchi Ducati Corse 900XR. Once again the whole "Made in Italy" thing comes into question, but the tube to tube technology seems awesome and it is only $2500. Ride ON!!!


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Ride Fly, great post*

People should be upset about the deception and pricing. The quality is not questioned because it is made in China or Taiwan, but the stickers of Made in Italy are false advertising. Like I said about the fine watch industry. There are strict rules about pitting "Swiss made" on watches and so should high end bicycles. 




Ride-Fly said:


> It is all about the companies being open and honest about their products. I recently commented on a poster's Pinarello Prince Carbon (which by the way is absolutely stunning) because I saw a "Made in Italy" sticker on the seattube and questioned the veracity of that sticker. He got a little bent out of shape for it. I recalled that the head Pinarello dude Fausto Pinarello stated that ALL of their carbon frames were made in Taiwan because they could not reproduce the quality of frames that some of the Taiwanese companies could make without prices becoming astronomical. Fair enough with that statement. But then here is my 2 bones of contention on this: 1) Why slap the "Made in Italy" sticker on their frames?; 2) $5000 for a Prince Carbon is NOT astronomical or at least a little inflated?? The Prince Carbon may be the end-all be-all of frame technology but should it really be that expensive? After all Fausto stated the reason he went to Taiwan for the manufacturing was to the lower cost. Well it seems to me that he is a very smart business man- he lowered his per unit production cost by a very large margin but was able to convince consumers that his frames are still worth the 5 G's he charged for his top-end frames that were once really made in Italy. And hey in true free market fashion, if people are willing to pay it, more power to them. I am not judging anyone who has or is considering shelling out that kind of money for a "Made in Italy" Taiwanese-produced Pinarello. It is just that I wouldn't do it on principle.
> 
> As for Fondreist and the rep who told a bold face lie to master about the manufacturing of their new frames, you've lost an avid fan of your frames. I have an '02 Carb Level that rates as one of my favorite rides ever. Companies like Fondriest, Pinarello, and Bianchi should be up front and honest about their products, that is all we are saying.
> 
> On a side note, I am still searching for my new ride, and the Bianchi 928 SL is still one of the finalist but I can't trust that the frame is indeed made in Italy as the sticker says. But at $2500 even if it is not made in Italy, it seems a fair price for a excellent frameset. Another frameset that has come back into the picture is the Bianchi Ducati Corse 900XR. Once again the whole "Made in Italy" thing comes into question, but the tube to tube technology seems awesome and it is only $2500. Ride ON!!!


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Lazyrider said:


> People should be upset about the deception and pricing. The quality is not questioned because it is made in China or Taiwan, but the stickers of Made in Italy are false advertising. Like I said about the fine watch industry. There are strict rules about pitting "Swiss made" on watches and so should high end bicycles.


+1 I agree with that.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

> _People should be upset about the deception . . . _


My feelings as well. It's easy, and even fun, to identify and ignore silly marketing hype, especially when it's been wretchedly translated like this TF 1 blurb in the Fondriest catalog:

_"TF 1 is . . . a bike with a frame suitable for high level competitions or just for standard Granfondo. I suggest it to whom is searching for an exclusive bike able to transmit sensations of champion’s driving."_

But the prominently displayed triple-whammy "Made in Italy" graphic used by Fondriest on the TF 1 pages would have most people, including myself, believing that the product was made in Italy—with "made" as defined by anyone who's not an international import-export lawyer.

What's next— a large "Carbon Fiber" logo next to the photo of an aluminum frame sporting a 100% carbon fiber cable guide under the bottom bracket?


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## LookDave (Sep 29, 2007)

Ride-Fly said:


> $5000 for a Prince Carbon is NOT astronomical or at least a little inflated?? The Prince Carbon may be the end-all be-all of frame technology but should it really be that expensive? After all Fausto stated the reason he went to Taiwan for the manufacturing was to the lower cost. Well it seems to me that he is a very smart business man- he lowered his per unit production cost by a very large margin but was able to convince consumers that his frames are still worth the 5 G's he charged for his top-end frames that were once really made in Italy. And hey in true free market fashion, if people are willing to pay it, more power to them.


You've hit the nail on the head - it really is all about consumer perception and willingness to pay for that perception. Forget the dirt cheap Taiwanese bare frames; is the $5K Prince Carbon that much better than other marquis brands in terms of construction quality, finish, longevity, ride quality, etc., etc.? Say, "twice" the bike" compared to a $2700 Look 585, or a $2800 Ridley Noah - both very nice frames with great reviews, and more importantly great experience by lots of riders, and great results, both pro and amateur? You'd have a hard time convincing me...

It's only twice the bike in some folks' perception. And if someone's perception says it's worth it, well it is, to them. And fine by me, so long as it's their cash, not mine. Not worth it to me, and I don't care if it was made in Italy, down to the individual carbon fibers. Shoot, not even if it's made at the North Pole by Santa's elves, with free delivery (but only once a year).


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Dave, this issue again and it wasn't me who*

brought it up. But as I repeatedly said and many on this thread have, why put a "Made in Italy" sticker on something when it in fact, isn't made there and deceive the consumer? That is the issue. 





LookDave said:


> You've hit the nail on the head - it really is all about consumer perception and willingness to pay for that perception. Forget the dirt cheap Taiwanese bare frames; is the $5K Prince Carbon that much better than other marquis brands in terms of construction quality, finish, longevity, ride quality, etc., etc.? Say, "twice" the bike" compared to a $2700 Look 585, or a $2800 Ridley Noah - both very nice frames with great reviews, and more importantly great experience by lots of riders, and great results, both pro and amateur? You'd have a hard time convincing me...
> 
> It's only twice the bike in some folks' perception. And if someone's perception says it's worth it, well it is, to them. And fine by me, so long as it's their cash, not mine. Not worth it to me, and I don't care if it was made in Italy, down to the individual carbon fibers. Shoot, not even if it's made at the North Pole by Santa's elves, with free delivery (but only once a year).


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Fondriest >>>> your punk-ass bikes


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## LookDave (Sep 29, 2007)

Lazy, I know you didn't bring it up here, and I appreciate the "made in" honesty issue. While location of manufacture isn't much of a factor in my bike frame buying decisions, I have no use for lies such as the Fondriest rep's statements to Master, and that company has taken a hit with me after seeing that in this thread. And the customs laws legalese about what "made in wherever" actually has to mean? Ridiculous. Tax code, anyone? 

I respect companies like Kuota - when I bought a Kuota frame last year, there was a "Made in China" sticker near the top of the seat tube, in plain sight for everyone in the LBS to see. We made it in China, we're proud of it, here's what we charge, buy it if you want it. Already knew that, having researched the company and frame, and that sticker did not influence my decision to buy the frame, but it did raise the company's stock a notch with me. I respect companies that treat me as an adult.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Old Fondriest - made in Italy by the original company - bankrupt

New Company - paid Fondreist to use the name, capitalize on the remnants of popularity generated by the original company - licensing agreement - very typical of Asian companies. That is why the designs are all new and made overseas etc.Probably by one of the major frame manufacturers over there.

Does anybody think Motobecane is the same company that it was in France? Schwinn in the US? 

T


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

Really? wow, didn't know that. 

Anyways, Schwinn's high ends are really nice and Motobecane bikes are a lot of bike for the money. Can't argue with that if you're on a tight budget with big wants.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Maybe the new Fondreists are good bikes. Probably not bad.

Also in Asia they do not have the consumer protection laws (country of origin disclosures) that we do in the states. They do not understand why we care.

Probably was not a big priority to the new production manager at the factory to update the decals - or the shipping boxes. Or maybe the engineer to change the bill of materials


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## bing181 (Oct 17, 2005)

*New/old Fondriest*



pdh777 said:


> Old Fondriest - made in Italy by the original company - bankrupt
> 
> New Company - paid Fondreist to use the name.


For me, that's the other major issue going on here. Apart from having the same name and Maurizio as a front man, difficult to see what the new and old Fondriest companies have to do with each other. More than anything to do with where the frames are made, it's that that would make me rather nervous about getting one of the new "Fondriest" s.

Of course, they could be as fabulous as the old ones, but ....?? Why for example aren't any of the distributors, or even someone from the company themselves jumping in here to reassure us all?

B


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2008)

Why did the old Fondriest go bust if the products were so great?

Fondriest are now the suxxor and I would even think twice about buying a used old frame.


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

I just bought a new Bianchi frame/fork off Ebay. It arrived brand new with a "made in Taiwan' sticker on the headtube. It is EOM 16.5 steel with a Deda rear carbon triangle. A few years ago, that would be like a $1500 frame. Best thing is that I paid *$436 *for it. I bought it for a criterium bike. It's actually really nice. The welds are not perfect but look pretty nice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...sid=m37&satitle=110213277632&category0=&fvi=1


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*EXACTLY, that Bianchi is sweet*

because you paid accordingly for the frame. Nice snag and you didn't get raped on the price like you would a Chinese Ridley or Cervelo.


skygodmatt said:


> I just bought a new Bianchi frame/fork off Ebay. It arrived brand new with a "made in Taiwan' sticker on the headtube. It is EOM 16.5 steel with a Deda rear carbon triangle. A few years ago, that would be like a $1500 frame. Best thing is that I paid *$436 *for it. I bought it for a criterium bike. It's actually really nice. The welds are not perfect but look pretty nice.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...sid=m37&satitle=110213277632&category0=&fvi=1


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## Flat Out (Aug 9, 2007)

I have to agree with Forrest Root's comment that if it is a suprise to you where something is made then you haven't really done your research. If such info is that important to you then it is quite easy to find out.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Seriously, WTF is so hard to understand*

about why people feel "deceived" when a F$%#ing label that says Made in Italy is put on a frame made in China? What possible defense can you have for doing that unless you are the one making a profit from that strategy. Unbelievable that anyone can defend such obvious deception. 




Flat Out said:


> I have to agree with Forrest Root's comment that if it is a suprise to you where something is made then you haven't really done your research. If such info is that important to you then it is quite easy to find out.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

the_rydster said:


> Why did the old Fondriest go bust if the products were so great?
> 
> Fondriest are now the suxxor and I would even think twice about buying a used old frame.


History is littered with stories of great products that did not make it. I think:

1) Fondriest overpriced their frames
2) Screwed their dealers by selling direct, so dealers dropped them
3) Didn't market very well in the states

It had nothing to do with their product quality, in my opinion. I have nothing but good things to say about my P4 or Top Level.

As for Fondriest now, I can't say. I don't care for the look of their frames. I think they're ugly. But that has nothing to do with where they're made.


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## Flat Out (Aug 9, 2007)

Lazyrider said:


> about why people feel "deceived" when a F$%#ing label that says Made in Italy is put on a frame made in China? What possible defense can you have for doing that unless you are the one making a profit from that strategy. Unbelievable that anyone can defend such obvious deception.


I'm not defending the deception. If where a bike is made is important to you the information is readily available. I don't feel sorry for anyone who doesn't do their research when they drop that kind of money on a frameset... or a TV... or a car. If it's important enough of an issue to you then take the time and do the research and don't go by a salesman's say so. If that kind of thing DOESN'T matter to you (and it really shouldn't) then you should be making the decision on how the bike rides not where it's made.


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Flat Out said:


> I'm not defending the deception. If where a bike is made is important to you the information is readily available. I don't feel sorry for anyone who doesn't do their research when they drop that kind of money on a frameset... or a TV... or a car. If it's important enough of an issue to you then take the time and do the research don't go by a salesman's say so. If that kind of thing DOESN'T matter to you (and it really shouldn't) then you should be making the decision on how the bike rides not where it's made.


See the problem here is not so much the "research" per say, but Company Disclosure. Many Italian manufacturers DON'T disclose where they make their frames for fear of retribution from Distributors, Dealers and ultimately, us End-Users. Just look at all the comments shared thus far. People are PISSED about all the BLATANT deception. This is the root of the anger in this thread. And I believe we have every right to call Fondriest, Bianchi, Pinarello etc. on this. We speak with our fingers in this forum. But I know my wallet has a MUCH BIGGER voice than I do. For now, I choose NOT to buy Fondriest from this point forward. I have seen a new 2008 frame. QUALITY SUCKED!!! The quality of this frame was substandard in comparison of the large ticket price. I plan to stay away. This is just my own personal stance for this brand in particular.


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## Tri Slow Poke (Jul 22, 2006)

*Do Your Research!*

I agree with the posters who think the OP should've done his research before purchasing the bike. The "where is my bike made" threads are all over this forum board. Why is this such a big deal anyway? Do Italians make better bikes than Asians? Why don't folks do their research instead of post their frustrations on message boards? Here is a cheat sheet for anyone who still feels deceived.

I want a high quality carbon bike: Buy a Trek OCLV

I want an aluminum frame: Buy a Cannondale

I want a steel frame: Buy a Serotta

I want a titanium frame: Buy a Litespeed 

All of these bike companies are headquartered and made in the USA. You have the four most popular frame materials with orgins that are legit.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*Where in the OP did you get the idea that he didn't do his "research"?!?!?!?*



Tri Slow Poke said:


> I agree with the posters who think the OP should've done his research before purchasing the bike. The "where is my bike made" threads are all over this forum board. Why is this such a big deal anyway? Do Italians make better bikes than Asians? Why don't folks do their research instead of post their frustrations on message boards?QUOTE]
> 
> [[Ooops, I have an edit here: The OP did not show that master2129 did his research. It was relayed in a post by him on 1/25/08 at 9:01 PM. It is there where he talks of speaking directly with the Fondy rep. So if you didn't see that post, I recant the following. If you did see it and wrote your post with that knowledge then I stand by the following]] By DIRECTLY asking the Fondriest rep about the origin of the frame, and being TOLD STRAIGHT TO HIS FACE, that "the New Fondriest is still handmade in Italy, just like the Old Fondriest", you don't consider that "doing the research?" WOW!!! What is next probing company reps up the wazzoo to make sure they are not telling lies?!?!? Hey master2129, you fook'd up by not hooking the guy up with a lie detector/shocker!! Seriously, talking directly to company reps constitute the highest form of doing research- straight from the horses mouth. It is like finding out that Serottas are made in Russia with Russian Ti- even after being told by Ben Serotta and his reps that they are made in NY.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

So sad. Really. People are still carping and whining about those nasty manufacturers and reps. Wake up. The information is there. Whining does nothing but make you look like whiners. Grow up. Move on. There are no big secrets.

Next.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*So sad that you continue*

to be "above" the argument yet you still feel compelled to post on the topic. You evidently do not comprehend what you read because you perpetually miss the point. Take your own advice and move on. 




Forrest Root said:


> So sad. Really. People are still carping and whining about those nasty manufacturers and reps. Wake up. The information is there. Whining does nothing but make you look like whiners. Grow up. Move on. There are no big secrets.
> 
> Next.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*Whatever dude...*



Forrest Root said:


> So sad. Really. People are still carping and whining about those nasty manufacturers and reps. Wake up. The information is there. Whining does nothing but make you look like whiners. Grow up. Move on. There are no big secrets.
> 
> Next.


Your condescending attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you is geting waaay old. Why don't you wake up? People have issues that are important to them. One of them is being lied to, straight up.


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

Taiwan has been driving innovation in the cycling industry for the last 30 years by producing better quality and better priced bicycle parts than their Italian counterparts. Most Italian companies have long since moved production overseas because they can have a better product for less money than something that is made in Europe. Most consumers however still regard Taiwan as some backwater rice paddy land where everyone wears those big conical hats when in reality it is one of the most modern and industrialized nations in the world. 
People want something made in Italy since Italy has this magic cycling heritage, but the problem is that Italy can't compete with Taiwan so manufactures use various trade loopholes to get Taiwan made product labeled as made in Italy. Is it an ethical business practice, probably not, but business is not ethical and never has been and never will be. 
If people want something that is made by hand, filled with the cycling magic of yesteryear then they are going to have to search out small builders who still produce bicycles by hand using steel and titanium. If someone wants the latest super light carbon frame, it is going to come out of Taiwan, China or maybe Tunisia if its a Look.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Ride-Fly said:


> Your condescending attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you is geting waaay old. Why don't you wake up? People have issues that are important to them. One of them is being lied to, straight up.


No, that's not condescension you're reading, it's sarcasm. No, the condescension is coming from those that thing the issue is so complicated that people must be missing the point and that anyone not agreeing must be sucking on the *Big Corporate Lie.* Nah, the issue is, well, petty.

Lied to? Get a life. Under the laws of Italy, what is being done, at least there, is legal. So what? As is plainly obvious by doing just a modicum of googling--all of about 1-2 minutes--the manufacturer of most any frame can be ID'd online. So, there is no lie. 

Equally laughable as the topic is the idea that anyone responding must be unknowingly revealing some deep, hidden feelings of sympathy. Right. That's a doozy of a bit o' logic. Besides, there's no reason people shouldn't post sarcastic responses to these threads and comments since people feel the need to go on the ol' *Dagnabit, that frame was really made in China by peasants hobbled to a floor covered with shards of glass instead of in a clean room, under the watch of Vatican guards, by 100 year old Eyetalian artisans.*

Watch out, Chicken Little, the sky is falling.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Rubber Lizard said:


> If people want something that is made by hand, filled with the cycling magic of yesteryear then they are going to have to search out small builders who still produce bicycles by hand using steel and titanium. If someone wants the latest super light carbon frame, it is going to come out of Taiwan, China or maybe Tunisia if its a Look.


Well, that can't be right. Isn't there some law that says that frames made in Taiwan can't retail for more than $900-$1100 since they weren't produced in one of cycling's shrines? I think that same law says that frames from China can only retail for $300-$650. I think that the Supreme Court ruled that law mandates that consumers can not be held responsible for their own spending decisions.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Forrest Root said:


> Lied to? Get a life. Under the laws of Italy, what is being done, at least there, is legal. So what? As is plainly obvious by doing just a modicum of googling--all of about 1-2 minutes--the manufacturer of most any frame can be ID'd online. So, there is no lie.


The laws of Italy are irrelevant to this issue. What allows Torpado's Fondriest division to import frames with deceptive country-of-origin stickers are extremely tolerant U.S. Customs regulations. Right now, many U.S. manufacturers are lobbying to have these regulations changed because they feel that the current regulations put them at a decided disadvantage.

The notion that consumers need to research all statements presented as fact by a seller is absurd. Also, the assessment that 1-2 minutes of googling will establish the country of origin of most frames might hold true for someone as intelligent as you are, but that assessment does not hold true for all consumers. It appears to be a guess on your part rather than fact.

/


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

The Italian government is evaluating, or has approved, the creation of a new category, "100 per cento Italia" (100% Italian). I haven't been able to find anymore details at the moment other than this short piece about the legislation. http://www.managingip.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1409007
This piece also mentions a new card to accompany "Made In Italy" products that would require divulging details of origin to the consumer.

I'll try to find out more about the legislation. 

The bike industry mirriors many other industries regarding "Made In Italy" problems. T


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*This Forrest guy*

is simply a contrarian who would argue against his convictions if it meant people would pay attention to him. This issue is so simple and it is obvious deception yet he blames the consumer for a company's questionable ethics. Like I said in past, let a guy who buys a Ferrari find out after the fact that it was made in China. Same thing with a Pinarello Carbon Prince. This guy is a clown. 




Forrest Root said:


> Well, that can't be right. Isn't there some law that says that frames made in Taiwan can't retail for more than $900-$1100 since they weren't produced in one of cycling's shrines? I think that same law says that frames from China can only retail for $300-$650. I think that the Supreme Court ruled that law mandates that consumers can not be held responsible for their own spending decisions.


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## Johnnysmooth (Jun 10, 2004)

Thankfully, I ride a Look 595 ad Look is very upfront in stating that their frames are designed in France and mfg in Algeria. I commend them for this honest, upfront disclosure.

As for those companies and their deceptive practices, that is something that they do at their peril and it could come back and bite them in the end.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

Johnnysmooth said:


> Thankfully, I ride a Look 595 ad Look is very upfront in stating that their frames are designed in France and mfg in Algeria. I commend them for this honest, upfront disclosure.
> 
> As for those companies and their deceptive practices, that is something that they do at their peril and it could come back and bite them in the end.


 Made in their own factory in Tunisia (from my understanding.) Since it used to be a colony and there are probably as many North Africans living in France as North Africa, it is just like being made in France Viva le Monde!


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*really sad. so sorry there are assclowns like forrest gump here*



Forrest Root said:


> No, that's not condescension you're reading, it's sarcasm. No, the condescension is coming from those that thing the issue is so complicated that people must be missing the point and that anyone not agreeing must be sucking on the *Big Corporate Lie.* Nah, the issue is, well, petty.
> 
> Lied to? Get a life. Under the laws of Italy, what is being done, at least there, is legal. So what? As is plainly obvious by doing just a modicum of googling--all of about 1-2 minutes--the manufacturer of most any frame can be ID'd online. So, there is no lie.
> 
> ...


you ...are... an.... ASSCLOWN. do the world a favor and keel over.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Forrest Root said:


> Well, that can't be right. Isn't there some law that says that frames made in Taiwan can't retail for more than $900-$1100 since they weren't produced in one of cycling's shrines? I think that same law says that frames from China can only retail for $300-$650. I think that the Supreme Court ruled that law mandates that consumers can not be held responsible for their own spending decisions.


Supreme Court's too busy fixing elections, man. They don't care about bikes.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

wim said:


> The laws of Italy are irrelevant to this issue. What allows Torpado's Fondriest division to import frames with deceptive country-of-origin stickers are extremely tolerant U.S. Customs regulations. Right now, many U.S. manufacturers are lobbying to have these regulations changed because they feel that the current regulations put them at a decided disadvantage.
> 
> The notion that consumers need to research all statements presented as fact by a seller is absurd. Also, the assessment that 1-2 minutes of googling will establish the country of origin of most frames might hold true for someone as intelligent as you are, but that assessment does not hold true for all consumers. It appears to be a guess on your part rather than fact.
> 
> /


Oh, well. Life's tough, ain't it? Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to such things. All it takes is minimal effort. Sub-minimal effort.

US manufacturers? Who cares? They'll whine about anything to gain an advantage. Remember Harley Davidson's protectionist hat trick?

Again, IF where something is made matters or IF your noodles get tweaked at the mere thought of something being made somewhere other than where you thought it was made, well......then do your self imposed due diligence and research before you buy. Really. It's that simple. If some contrived notion of "value" is your fetish, then you can satiate those needs on eBay or summat.

If that isn't satisfactory, make sure you have a clean supply of hankies to wipe up the tears that have yet to fall.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Ride-Fly said:


> you ...are... an.... ASSCLOWN. do the world a favor and keel over.


What an intelligent response.


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## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

Forrest Root said:


> Well, that can't be right. Isn't there some law that says that frames made in Taiwan can't retail for more than $900-$1100 since they weren't produced in one of cycling's shrines? I think that same law says that frames from China can only retail for $300-$650. I think that the Supreme Court ruled that law mandates that consumers can not be held responsible for their own spending decisions.


I'm still trying to figure out what exactly you are trying to say with this post.....?


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Lazyrider said:


> is simply a contrarian who would argue against his convictions if it meant people would pay attention to him. This issue is so simple and it is obvious deception yet he blames the consumer for a company's questionable ethics. Like I said in past, let a guy who buys a Ferrari find out after the fact that it was made in China. Same thing with a Pinarello Carbon Prince. This guy is a clown.


Yes it is simple: don't buy something if it doesn't fit your requirements, even if those requirements are about where a bike frame was really made. Very simple. It's also quite easy, facile actually, to make the realization that there is no set of universal values when it comes to manufacturing, where things are manufactured, and what the true worth of any given product is.

As for the rest of your spiel, I rather doubt your intuition about other people is really as sharp as you'd like to think it is.


----------



## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Rubber Lizard said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what exactly you are trying to say with this post.....?


It's been asserted that the "value" of a frame made in, say, China, should, in many cases, be less than that of one made in, say, Italy, especially if the Italian mark has real bonafides, like some old guy rode one when he won a race or summat. My remark is a parody of that idea.


----------



## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

This thread needs to be renamed 'business ethics in the bicycle industry and Forrest's nonsensical rants on the subject'.


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Rubber Lizard said:


> This thread needs to be renamed 'business ethics in the bicycle industry and Forrest's nonsensical rants on the subject'.


Why thank you. I haven't ranted, but there certainly is enough nonsensical blather going on from both sides. Alas, nonsensical is only your viewpoint, and it says nothing about the value of any view at all.

Sarcasm fits well in the context of the religious fervor displayed in this thread and other similar threads.


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## zero85ZEN (Oct 11, 2002)

*With all due respect...*



Forrest Root said:


> Why thank you. I haven't ranted, but there certainly is enough nonsensical blather going on from both sides. Alas, nonsensical is only your viewpoint, and it says nothing about the value of any view at all.
> 
> Sarcasm fits well in the context of the religious fervor displayed in this thread and other similar threads.


I haven't gotten the sense that most folks are displaying "religious fervor" by expressing some dissatisfaction over very deceptive marketing practices by certain bicycle "manufacturers". It has clearly been stated, over and over again, by many posters in this thread, and others on this topic, that the problem is not where a frame is made but rather some companies deliberately misleading marketing strategies of claiming production in a country other than the real country of manufacture. This common practice also seems to co-inside to a very high degree with said companies selling such bikes/frames represented as made in certain European or North American countries (that, in fact, were not made in those countries) for substantially more money than almost identical (from a technology standpoint) products that openly state that they were made in Taiwan, China, Vietnam, etc, etc, etc. 

Your insistence on placing the responsibility of determining REALLY where a product was made on the consumer, despite the fact that the product STATES ON ITSELF WHERE IT WAS MADE (on a country of manufacture sticker), is absurd. If the consumer reads the sticker she has tried to ascertain the country of manufacture. If someone asks the rep from Fondriest where a particular frame is made that consumer HAS tried to ascertain where the frame is manufactured. If the country of manufacture sticker or the Fondriest rep tells them that the product was made in Italy, when in fact it was made in freakin' Timbuktu, the consumer has been lied to. Plain and simple. Full stop. The whole practice is unethical and dishonest. THAT is what folks on this thread have a problem with.

And, I'm done. I'm not going to feed the (suspected) troll anymore.


----------



## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*My intuition is*

usually dead on as I am in the mental health field. And I know I am right about you. Look how you alienate yourself. Not many friends hugh? You are psuedo-intellectual who thinks he is more clever than he really is. That is why I get to you, I see the truth. 



Forrest Root said:


> Yes it is simple: don't buy something if it doesn't fit your requirements, even if those requirements are about where a bike frame was really made. Very simple. It's also quite easy, facile actually, to make the realization that there is no set of universal values when it comes to manufacturing, where things are manufactured, and what the true worth of any given product is.
> 
> As for the rest of your spiel, I rather doubt your intuition about other people is really as sharp as you'd like to think it is.


----------



## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

Lazyrider said:


> is simply a contrarian who would argue against his convictions if it meant people would pay attention to him. This issue is so simple and it is obvious deception yet he blames the consumer for a company's questionable ethics. Like I said in past, let a guy who buys a Ferrari find out after the fact that it was made in China. Same thing with a Pinarello Carbon Prince. This guy is a clown.


He really does go out of his way to Alienate people, doesn't he.


----------



## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

bwana said:


> He really does go out of his way to Alienate people, doesn't he.


Who have I alienated? I've only disagreed with the dogma espoused in this thread and the idea that people are being cheated because their Fondriest frames might have been made in UnItaly. So what?

Oh, wait. Maybe this is a thread wherein you're only allowed to nod in assent.


----------



## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Lazyrider said:


> usually dead on as I am in the mental health field. And I know I am right about you. Look how you alienate yourself. Not many friends hugh? You are psuedo-intellectual who thinks he is more clever than he really is. That is why I get to you, I see the truth.


Ah, the troll reveals his true self. Posing as an alleged health care worker, he claims the powers to divine a persons true self through words read on a screen. Meanwhile, credible health care professionals laugh at him.

Thanks for the insight though. You truly are a giant in the field that you allege you are in.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Forrest*

Hammer------Nail-------Head We both know I summed you up in one sentence. I can have empathy and compassion for mentally sick people, but as a trained therapist, I also need to cut through [email protected] and confront a$$holes when I need to. 

You have a personality disorder because your negative behaviors are so consistent with who you are, you cannot see them as dysfunctional. Look up "ego syntonic" and it will explain everything and maybe you will gain some insight but I doubt it. 


Forrest Root said:


> Ah, the troll reveals his true self. Posing as an alleged health care worker, he claims the powers to divine a persons true self through words read on a screen. Meanwhile, credible health care professionals laugh at him.
> 
> Thanks for the insight though. You truly are a giant in the field that you allege you are in.


----------



## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

*I have to stoop to your level*



Forrest Root said:


> What an intelligent response.


don't like it? you know you can do to yourself gump-boy.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I happened across this in Bicycling Mag (Boulder Report) published January, '07. Obviously written in the extreme, but somewhat true. 

"*No-name carbon*:_ the bike industry is shoveling carbon fiber out the door by the bushel-full. But what the hell is it? There’s no consistency in labeling, almost no explanation given to what kind or grade of fiber is used and why, very few companies identify who their suppliers are (preferring to slap a house label on it and ignoring the fact that only two major framemakers, Time and Giant, buy carbon in raw thread form), or even bother to check definitions on words like monocoque or carbon vs. composite, which get tossed around like a cheerleader at a BCS game. Most sinister (if you’re buying a bike) is the purported carbon fiber frame that is really fiberglass or some heavier, lower-strength fiber with a nice topsheet of woven carbon._"


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## Squeegy200 (Dec 1, 2005)

Like so many other products manufactured in Taiwan, Some of the best quality products worldwide come from this tiny island country. Bikes are no exception. I don't think anyone would have any complaints about their High Def LCD flat screen just because its made in Taiwan. That just happens to be where the majority of the plants that produce those products are currently located. Bikes are no different. This practice was done even when steel was the preferred tubeset for manufacturing bikes. Specialized was one of those engineering in California but manufacturing in Taiwan 20 years ago. 

Ridley makes great bikes and has been open about the manufacturing in Taiwan. Ridley's expertise is in the paint jobs. I'd still buy one if I could afford it. 

The picture below is last years Fondriest RP compared with the 2008 Pedalforce RS2. They most likely come from the very same factory tooling.


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## Flat Out (Aug 9, 2007)

I wonder who actually did the design/R&D of both those frames?


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## zero85ZEN (Oct 11, 2002)

*"Same" frame in both pics*



Flat Out said:


> I wonder who actually did the design/R&D of both those frames?


As far as they both came out of the same mold from the same factory but are different sizes (pictured) and made with different carbon weaves (which accounts for the lighter weight of the Pedal Force frame). The Fondy is a 12K weave the PF is a 3K weave.

Anybodies guess who did the R&D/design on it. But my guess would be some fellas at Giant Bicycles.


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## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

zero85ZEN said:


> As far as they both came out of the same mold from the same factory but are different sizes (pictured) and made with different carbon weaves (which accounts for the lighter weight of the Pedal Force frame). The Fondy is a 12K weave the PF is a 3K weave.
> 
> Anybodies guess who did the R&D/design on it. But my guess would be some fellas at Giant Bicycles.


More likely it was Advanced Composites or ADK as this has been the "normal" supplier for PedalForce. I don't think they are big enough to spread themselves thin among many different suppliers. So working backwards you could assume they are supplying Fondriest also.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Squeegy, we are not questioning quality but your post is*

proof of what I have been saying all along. That Pedal Force is all and more of a bike than the Fondriest yet from what I can see is able to be had for $500. Fondriest charges thousands of $$$ for same frame and tries to pass it off as Italian and deceive consumers. 

Once again my point is proved that these carbon made frame from China with Cervelo, Colnago, Pinarello are huge rip offs and the carbon revolution and China productioin has exposed this fact. At least when they were made in smaller factories in Italy, the manufacturers had that level of mystique and exclusivity that is lost on frames farmed out to China. I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH A FRAME MADE IN TAIWAN OR CHINA BUT THE PRICE SHOULD REFLECT THAT.
All that bull$#%$ some spew about free market and what people are willing to pay is ridiculous. Yes, it is fine if you are an idiot and want to get a$$ raped at the register when it is clear that these "high end" carbon frames are being made in the same place as the generic frames. 



Squeegy200 said:


> Like so many other products manufactured in Taiwan, Some of the best quality products worldwide come from this tiny island country. Bikes are no exception. I don't think anyone would have any complaints about their High Def LCD flat screen just because its made in Taiwan. That just happens to be where the majority of the plants that produce those products are currently located. Bikes are no different. This practice was done even when steel was the preferred tubeset for manufacturing bikes. Specialized was one of those engineering in California but manufacturing in Taiwan 20 years ago.
> 
> Ridley makes great bikes and has been open about the manufacturing in Taiwan. Ridley's expertise is in the paint jobs. I'd still buy one if I could afford it.
> 
> The picture below is last years Fondriest RP compared with the 2008 Pedalforce RS2. They most likely come from the very same factory tooling.


----------



## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

master2129 said:


> Is the 2008 Fondriest line really worth the price?
> 
> My friend just got his supposedly 'Made in Italy' TF1 that he ordered when he was over there for New Years and the Fondriest box it came in yesterday said 'Manufacturered in Taiwan'. How disappointing is that? It's like a bait and switch. False advertisement.
> 
> ...


I'm joining late here but here is my $.02. 

Regardless where it's made, it appears that the quality of the frame your friend received is far below the standard (especially at that price) quality that the Italian Builders are known for. I know some people don't care where is the bike made and that's fine.
But for those of who paid top dollars for for the Italian made frame should get the Italian made frame.
I'm not sure if your friend didn't do the homework before he invested the top $ for the frame or he was misled but the assumption is usually why people get in this kind of mess.

I was in a similar situation last year.
I was looking fof a French/Italian made CF frame and found out that the most of the frames were made in China/Taiwan. I believe China/Taiwan are on top of thing as far as building quality CF frame.
Having said that, I still wanted an Italian/French made frame.
After doing some more research, I found out that all Time frames are still hand made in France. That pretty much made me decide on what frame I was going to get.
If I received a frame from Time and the sticker says "made in Taiwan" and have quality issue like the one your friend got, I'd definitely have major issues also.

Hope your friend will have success returning the frame.


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## zero85ZEN (Oct 11, 2002)

*Right you are.*



WheresWaldo said:


> More likely it was Advanced Composites or ADK as this has been the "normal" supplier for PedalForce. I don't think they are big enough to spread themselves thin among many different suppliers. So working backwards you could assume they are supplying Fondriest also.


You've probably nailed it.


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## Bianchi67 (Oct 16, 2005)

Lazyrider said:


> Once again my point is proved that these carbon made frame from China with Cervelo, Colnago, Pinarello are huge rip offs and the carbon revolution and China productioin has exposed this fact.


Colnago is pretty clear (in print and on the web) about which frames are made in Italy and which are not. Their pricing also reflects this with the Italian frames being more $.

Most other Italian companies are vague at best about where they are made. This is why my last frame was a Colnago.

When did the "Heart of the Pyrenees" fall in the middle of Asia? :idea:


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## Forrest Root (Dec 22, 2006)

Lazyrider said:


> Hammer------Nail-------Head We both know I summed you up in one sentence. I can have empathy and compassion for mentally sick people, but as a trained therapist, I also need to cut through [email protected] and confront a$$holes when I need to.
> 
> You have a personality disorder because your negative behaviors are so consistent with who you are, you cannot see them as dysfunctional. Look up "ego syntonic" and it will explain everything and maybe you will gain some insight but I doubt it.


Uh-huh.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re; Fondreist and Pedal Force red bike photos*

Interestingly this was in a post in the General Forum (under Counterfeit Components):
"They guy who did unpainted Wilier Le Roi group buy on Bikeforums for 15% of Wilier list price explained the legality of the deal. A factory by contract can not sell the top of the line model. He could not do Wilier Cento. But contract gives the factory a right to use molds for the last year top of the line frame after it stops being top of the line. The factory manufactures iti and it goes out as a generic frame or under a different brand name."


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*My Mongoose Bosberg came with a quality contorl card*

that has an Advanced Group logo on it. It was made in Taiwan and has all the technical figures regarding frame weight, alignment, sizing, internal and external tube diameters. Pretty thorough. Btw, I suggested the Pedal Force to a friend at work and he put in an order today. NICE!!!!


zero85ZEN said:


> You've probably nailed it.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*BTW, it is a testimonial to the use of the internet that we*

are all able to research and find out the truth behind products that prior to such access to information, people were at a severe disadvantage. For some of you guys slammed me at first about my views on pricing and deception in advertising, I feel this particular thread illuminates what I had been saying and that many many others feel the same way.

I use the analogy of car buying today to prove my point. How better equipped are we with information gleaned from the internet of dealer invoice, residual values, dealer holdbacks etc? It totally changed the buying process for me and made the whole charade of "let me go and talk to my manager" a lot less intimidating knowing exactly what I wanted to pay. 

So for the Forrests, the Flat Outs, Elvientos that criticize and couldn't see my point about excessive markups on products of same quality and fabrication, I am not alone in my feelings. You call it whining, but who the f$## likes getting ripped off? Yes, I am willing to pay big money for certain watches but these things hold value and are collectible. I would and have paid extra for smaller frame manufacturers, but carbon fiber has changed all that once they farm out to China. These are often the same frames as the generics. So be my guest and get raped in the a$$ but my future purchases will be more well thought out.


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## Flat Out (Aug 9, 2007)

Lazyrider said:


> So for the Forrests, the Flat Outs, CParks that criticize and couldn't see my point about excessive markups on products of same quality and fabrication, I am not alone in my feelings. You call it whining, but who the f$## likes getting ripped off? Yes, I am willing to pay big money for certain watches but these things hold value and are collectible. I would and have paid extra for smaller frame manufacturers, but carbon fiber has changed all that once they farm out to China. These are often the same frames as the generics. So be my guest and get raped in the a$$ but my future purchases will be more well thought out.


My C50 rode better than every other frame out there. That's why I bought it. Plain and simple. 

Why all the hate?


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

Lazyrider said:


> are all able to research and find out the truth behind products that prior to such access to information, people were at a severe disadvantage. For some of you guys slammed me at first about my views on pricing and deception in advertising, I feel this particular thread illuminates what I had been saying and that many many others feel the same way.
> 
> I use the analogy of car buying today to prove my point. How better equipped are we with information gleaned from the internet of dealer invoice, residual values, dealer holdbacks etc? It totally changed the buying process for me and made the whole charade of "let me go and talk to my manager" a lot less intimidating knowing exactly what I wanted to pay.
> 
> So for the Forrests, the Flat Outs, CParks that criticize and couldn't see my point about excessive markups on products of same quality and fabrication, I am not alone in my feelings. You call it whining, but who the f$## likes getting ripped off? Yes, I am willing to pay big money for certain watches but these things hold value and are collectible. I would and have paid extra for smaller frame manufacturers, but carbon fiber has changed all that once they farm out to China. These are often the same frames as the generics. So be my guest and get raped in the a$$ but my future purchases will be more well thought out.


Lazyrider,


I'm little lost here.
Do you have anger management issue?
I re-read my reply and didn't see any criticizm or calling anyone whinning.
Everyone here is expressing their opinion on the this matter and I don't believe anyone is wrong. Also, please have some respect for other members and watch your language.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*CPARK, ooops!!!*

I am sorry but I didn't mean you. Don't know why I confused you with someone else but I did, my bad and I am sorry. I edited my original post.
Lazy




cpark said:


> Lazyrider,
> 
> 
> I'm little lost here.
> ...


----------



## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

I wonder if all of the Ridley's carbon frames are made in Taiwan. Anybody?


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Ridleys are indeed made in*

Asia but they paint them in Belgium and then have the audacity to slap Made in Belgium stickers on them. Not bad bikes nonetheless but way overpriced.



linus said:


> I wonder if all of the Ridley's carbon frames are made in Taiwan. Anybody?


----------



## Rubber Lizard (May 10, 2007)

Basically the rule is, if its a monocoque frame, it comes out of Asia, although there are a few very few and far between exceptions to this.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Lazyrider said:


> Asia but they paint them in Belgium and then have the audacity to slap Made in Belgium stickers on them. Not bad bikes nonetheless but way overpriced.


So even Noah and Heliums are made in Asia? You really sure? 

I've talked with a someone from Ridley and he said that everything is made in Belgium. I don't really care whether they do or not but when someone lies, it's a totally a different story. This is bad......:incazzato:


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

There is a lot of reading to do on this thread to catch up. I last posted 3 days ago.

A few comments here could be relevant.

From a top executive @ Specialized - there are only 3 carbon fiber manufacturers in the world supplying to the bike industry, including to them - All in Asia. Most of the product produced from these CF factories are precut tubes - a smaller portion CF fabric. This has since been corroborated by a well connected LBS owner here in CO who has been to Europe and Asia many times.- I couldn't wait to ask him if true..He totally supported the Specialized information.

Therefore, to get a made in Italy or US or France CF bike today - means the CF was bought - or the tubes precut in Asia - the frame was formed (maybe hand laid) and assembled in Euro, US - he intimated that many high end Italian bikes were assembled in Italy from precut CF tubes not fabric. 

Different view on this whole country of origin, don't you think? or what constitutes a bike manufacturer. This is in no way a rag against Italian bikes - many do it.

I believe this is how my 2007 Look 585 was "assembled" in France as well. Look doesn't have nearly the tube shape variations of Colnago or Pinarello etc, so why not source the precut tubes to your spec. where the labor is cheaper. Have your "artisans" assemble. Further it's easier to manage assembly materials in production process with less part numbers - less tube variation as LOOK has. I did not know all of this at the time of purchase but doubt it would have affected my decision - Quality was co - equal on the list with ride characteristics. When I bought I had no doubt about either- especially when dropping that kind of coin. 

In essence what I believe some of the posters are alluding to when they think a product made in the US or Italy or wherever must be of higher quality than Asian. They are under the "assumption" that the assembly QC is better in the US, - Euro countries than Asia. - this is probably true to a some degree - although I bet Asia does produce some high quality bikes as well. On the other hand 2 high end expensive Euro brands have come under criticism in the RBR forums for quality issues this past year for frame crack issues - Kuota and BMC. Haven't ridden or seen much of either - can't comment personally on these 2 but this does indicate that C of O is only so pertinent

Various bike company's have touted unique layups etc. Obviously this provides some opportunity for better QC - if they do their own fabric layups and control it well. 

Me thinks the "perceptions" about a brand are to some degree based on fact - some degree based on reputation (Fine Italian heritage - craftsmanship - Artisan - fill in the blank) supported by a heavy dose of MARKETING. 

So this has been a long winded way of saying what it really comes down to is the QC processes at the individual company are what is CRITICAL, Since basically the same raw material is sourced from 3 suppliers. That and our "PERCEPTIONS" of a brand.

One point about the Time poster above -Time is very unique in the business - they actually buy the CF thread from - are you ready - one of the 3 companies in Asia - but weave their own fabric - this indeed does separate them from the rest of the industry. Where you can say they very well may have several extra steps of QC in the process. This was mentioned in the Jan/Feb issue of Road bike action in the review of the VXRS on page 52.

INSPECT THOROUGHLY AND ALWAYS RIDE BEFORE YOU BUY


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*This is from Velonews*

The deception is what pisses me off not the fact of where your Ridley was made. They assemble and paint 70% of the frames in Belgium but all of their frames are made in China. Pay special attention to this sentence from this article.

"Inside the non-descript metal-sided building is a bustling 45-person operation whose main task is receiving frames built at its overseas manufacturing facility..."


http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/13597.0.html




linus said:


> So even Noah and Heliums are made in Asia? You really sure?
> 
> I've talked with a someone from Ridley and he said that everything is made in Belgium. I don't really care whether they do or not but when someone lies, it's a totally a different story. This is bad......:incazzato:


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Many posters seem to be turning this thread into an argument about how Asian frames are as good, if not better, than their European rivals.

That was not the issue.

The issues is about dishonest badging. Claiming something is made somewhere when it is made in another place...and getting away with it. It is unethical and wrong.


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## Flat Out (Aug 9, 2007)

pdh777 said:


> From a top executive @ Specialized - there are only 3 carbon fiber manufacturers in the world supplying to the bike industry, including to them - All in Asia. Most of the product produced from these CF factories are precut tubes - a smaller portion CF fabric. This has since been corroborated by a well connected LBS owner here in CO who has been to Europe and Asia many times.- I couldn't wait to ask him if true..He totally supported the Specialized information....
> 
> Therefore, to get a made in Italy or US or France CF bike today - means the CF was bought - or the tubes precut in Asia - the frame was formed (maybe hand laid) and assembled in Euro, US - he intimated that many high end Italian bikes were assembled in Italy from precut CF tubes not fabric....
> 
> One point about the Time poster above -Time is very unique in the business - they actually buy the CF thread from - are you ready - one of the 3 companies in Asia - but weave their own fabric - this indeed does separate them from the rest of the industry. Where you can say they very well may have several extra steps of QC in the process. This was mentioned in the Jan/Feb issue of Road bike action in the review of the VXRS on page 52.


This info from Specialized isn't entirely accurate. Colnago sources all of their carbon fiber for their high end bikes from ATR in Italy.

http://www.atrgroup.it/eng/index.htm


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## master2129 (Mar 30, 2007)

Flat Out said:


> This info from Specialized isn't entirely accurate. Colnago sources all of their carbon fiber for their high end bikes from ATR in Italy.
> 
> http://www.atrgroup.it/eng/index.htm


Out of all the "Italian" big builders, Colnago for the most part has been very honest about their ARTE frameset which had MADE IN TAIWAN stickers all over the box and frameset itself. At least Earnesto is trying to subtly let his customers know that, yes, this bike has my name on it, but I offer it to you as a "value" to the cost concious money strapped cyclist. This is GOOD and RESPECTABLE in my opinion. 

When I started this thread I didn't know it would get this much attention. But I was VERY ANGRY at this discovery of deception and more DISAPPOINTED in the Brand that I used to love and trust. Fondriest got it wrong. Plain and simple. Hopefully other manufacturers are reading this thread and deciding to be more HONEST with their marketing tactics. You guys and gals are all awesome. :thumbsup:


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

pdh777 said:


> There is a lot of reading to do on this thread to catch up. I last posted 3 days ago.
> 
> A few comments here could be relevant.
> 
> ...



What about Trek's Madone line? They say all madone frames are processed, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin. Last time I checked a map that is not in Asia.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zac said:


> What about Trek's Madone line? They say all madone frames are processed, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin. Last time I checked a map that is not in Asia.


I can't recall ever seeing documentation from Trek specifically using the work 'process' the way you have. I've read that the _OCLV process _used to manufacture the higher end Madones is done in Wisconsin. They could still rightfully state that the design, lay ups and manufacturing take place there, even if the CF was Asian sourced, so I'd guess that the possibility exists.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Guilty as charged Rydster 

Back on point - it is actually illegal to mis badge the C of O on a product coming in the US -customs would like to hear about this I am sure - not that it will be high on their priority list - but it will get their attention and most likely put Fondreist Licensing LTD on the hot seat.

Then we can have another thread on Asian shell companies that change their identity from one day to the next to stay in business.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> I can't recall ever seeing documentation from Trek specifically using the work 'process' the way you have. I've read that the _OCLV process _used to manufacture the higher end Madones is done in Wisconsin. They could still rightfully state that the design, lay ups and manufacturing take place there, even if the CF was Asian sourced, so I'd guess that the possibility exists.


Do a little homework. Both Kestrel and Trek purchase from the same US carbon fabric manufacturer. Though dont know if it is exclusive.


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## jordan (Feb 2, 2002)

WheresWaldo said:


> More likely it was Advanced Composites or ADK as this has been the "normal" supplier for PedalForce. I don't think they are big enough to spread themselves thin among many different suppliers. So working backwards you could assume they are supplying Fondriest also.







The original Pedal Force RS and ZX models were ADK made frames and they are somewhat different from the new RS2/Fondriest.I would venture that they have changed the factory-possibly to Topkey,the maker of Specialized frames,among others.One clue is the FACT logo,same as on the Tarmac and a similar curved top tube design to Specialized frames.The new RS2 is also lighter than the prior ADK models.The RS2 also does not resemble the Advanced frames- which did not made the PF frames in the past.It is too bad that PFand Fondriest,among others will not reveal the factory of origin.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zac said:


> Do a little homework. Both Kestrel and Trek purchase from the same US carbon fabric manufacturer. Though dont know if it is exclusive.


Practice reading comprehension and reread my post. I didn't definitively say who Trek's CF supplier was, only that I'd guess it could be foreign sourced. What I took issue with is your statement: 
_..."all madone frames are *processed*, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin." _
_Sounds_ factual, so please share your source.


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Fwiw*

The only Madone made in Asia is the Madone 4.5 which my buddy just ordered. It is the same except that it is made of TCT carbon and has a traditional seatpost. It appears to be the same shape tubes otherwise but carbon is not OCLV. Not sure if the OCLV is sourced from Asia but I know they are made in USA.



PJ352 said:


> Practice reading comprehension and reread my post. I didn't definitively say who Trek's CF supplier was, only that I'd guess it could be foreign sourced. What I took issue with is your statement:
> _..."all madone frames are *processed*, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin." _
> _Sounds_ factual, so please share your source.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Yes, I'm aware that the TCT carbons are made in Asia. That would include the 4.7 as well as the 4.5. I'd be interested to hear about the ride qualities compared to the OCLV's.

Did your friend test ride the bike?


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> Practice reading comprehension and reread my post. I didn't definitively say who Trek's CF supplier was, only that I'd guess it could be foreign sourced. What I took issue with is your statement:
> _..."all madone frames are *processed*, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin." _
> _Sounds_ factual, so please share your source.


Practice reading comprehension? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? The OP to this subthread made a direct factual statement that is plain wrong. Paraphrasing: because he heard it from someone. Then you, without any factual knowledge on the subject pipe in and say he could be right.

Now you insult me and then demand my source. Well I will tell you this: The company is a publicly traded US corporation, has been supplying Trek for many years, and without looking it up, does almost all of its manufacturing in the United States, and none in Asia. Its stockholders, at least, have known for many years about this and their relationship to Trek. And just for the hell of it, a simple google search found this company and their ties to Trek in about .000001 seconds.

Now you go practice reading comprehension and reread my post (I'll give you a hint: do your own homework) and go find it your yourself. I have no desire to help those who are internet know-it-alls.

zac


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zac said:


> Practice reading comprehension? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? The OP to this subthread made a direct factual statement that is plain wrong. Paraphrasing: because he heard it from someone. Then you, without any factual knowledge on the subject pipe in and say he could be right.
> 
> Now you insult me and then demand my source. Well I will tell you this: The company is a publicly traded US corporation, has been supplying Trek for many years, and without looking it up, does almost all of its manufacturing in the United States, and none in Asia. Its stockholders, at least, have known for many years about this and their relationship to Trek. And just for the hell of it, a simple google search found this company and their ties to Trek in about .000001 seconds.
> 
> ...


zac, calm yourself. This, and only this, is what I took issue with:
_..all madone frames are processed, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin_.
I don't know what 'subthread' you're referring to nor do I know the OP that I was supposedly defending. Your statement sounded factual, so I _asked_ you to sight your source - for the forums benefit, not mine alone. No insults, no know it all attitude, just plain dialogue.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> *Practice reading comprehension* and reread my post. I didn't definitively say who Trek's CF supplier was, only that I'd guess it could be foreign sourced. What I took issue with is your statement:
> _..."all madone *frames* are processed, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin." _
> _Sounds_ factual, so please share your source.


I corrected it for you.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

No corrections needed. I stand by what I wrote. Now you can clarify what _you_ wrote.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> zac, calm yourself. This, and only this, is what I took issue with:
> _..all madone frames are processed, layed up, and assembled in Waterloo, Wisconsin_.
> I don't know what 'subthread' you're referring to nor do I know the OP that I was supposedly defending. Your statement sounded factual, so I _asked_ you to sight your source - for the forums benefit, not mine alone. No insults, no know it all attitude, just plain dialogue.



I will take that as an offer of peace. I am calm, thank you.

The subthread OP is the one quoted in my post that you took issue to.

And as part of the OCLV process, the raw cf fabric (whose source is USA) for the Madone frame is: processed, layed up and assembled in Waterloo Wisconsin and there exclusively.

The company is Hexcel and has been the main supplier to Trek (as well as a few other carbon frame manufacturers) for the raw composites used in the Madone frame for quite some time. Now you made me go and look it up, and as I said earlier, almost all of their manufacturing is done right here in the USA. Some in Europe and South America. None in Asia.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

It wasn't so much an offer of peace as it was a matter of fact, but I'm glad you're calm.

Ah, pdh777's post. I thought he had some good points, but no, I wasn't defending any part of it as factual - or yours as not.

Lastly, I and possibly some other members appreciate your sharing Trek's CF supplier info with us, but i don't think I _made_ you go look it up. :smilewinkgrin: 
But I will say that all this talk about C of O, CF suppliers, etc. makes me strongly consider staying with steel.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

PJ352 said:


> It wasn't so much an offer of peace as it was a matter of fact, but I'm glad you're calm.
> 
> Ah, pdh777's post. I thought he had some good points, but no, I wasn't defending any part of it as factual - or yours as not.
> 
> ...


Steel bikes are works of art. But CF (done properly) is state of the art. 

But to be fair, if you read this entire thread, I will stick by my original posts too: Asian CF is largely of dubious quality, they copy and copy poorly. It is even more suspect when the entire frame is assembled there, as quality control is non-existent.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Clarification.*



pdh777 said:


> Back on point - it is actually illegal to mis badge the C of O on a product coming in the US -customs would like to hear about this I am sure - not that it will be high on their priority list - but it will get their attention and most likely put Fondreist Licensing LTD on the hot seat


Fondriest is not doing anything illegal. U.S. Customs requires only that the non-Italian content in a product marked “Made in Italy” be "substantially transformed" in Italy. Thus, the product could have been merely assembled or finished in Italy using components from many different countries and still claim Italian origin under U.S. Customs law.

Of course, one could ask Fondriest to prove "substantial transformation in Italy." Unfortunately, almost any answer—made up or factual—would get them off the hook. As you said, U.S. customs doesn't have the interest or money to go after small fish like that.


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## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

Sorry - off point again.

The original poster was "told or read" that the frame was made in Italy. When he received the bike it was stickered made in Taiwan. If it was made in Taiwan - no harm no foul by the company.

The misleading by Fondreist was done in the process leading up to the purchase - very deceptive - nothing illegal.


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## jacobsdad (Oct 7, 2007)

Lazyrider said:


> Btw, I suggested the Pedal Force to a friend at work and he put in an order today. NICE!!!!


I guess it doesn't really belong in this thread but, I did order my PedalForce frameset. I've read every single post in this thread and I by no means do my homework on all the bike stuff cited here but, I don't want to be LIED or DECIEVED to by a bicycle company- plain and simple. There isn't a need for all the ranting or arguing on such a simple fact. Oh, you all need to get out and ride instead of typing so much..hehe!!


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## Lazyrider (Sep 15, 2004)

*Hey, love this guy's vision of your new frame*

with the white accents. Nice



jacobsdad said:


> I guess it doesn't really belong in this thread but, I did order my PedalForce frameset. I've read every single post in this thread and I by no means do my homework on all the bike stuff cited here but, I don't want to be LIED or DECIEVED to by a bicycle company- plain and simple. There isn't a need for all the ranting or arguing on such a simple fact. Oh, you all need to get out and ride instead of typing so much..hehe!!


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## bing181 (Oct 17, 2005)

*Fondriest Design/Giro*



Flat Out said:


> I wonder who actually did the design/R&D of both those frames?


Good question, but I wonder who actually designed the "old" Fondriest frames - or more to the point, who are they designing for now!

Slightly OT, but interesting to see that "Fondriest" will be represented in this year's Giro. The team they sponsor NGC Medical-OTC, has received an invite.

So, lots of publicity and exposure for their "Made in Taiwan" frames ... alongside all the other Asian frames of course.

B


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## vigilante76 (Mar 2, 2007)

Hmmmm those white tires look. P.I.M.P.!  My next move for the new bike...


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

pdh777 said:


> Sorry - off point again.
> 
> The original poster was "told or read" that the frame was made in Italy. When he received the bike it was stickered made in Taiwan. If it was made in Taiwan - no harm no foul by the company.
> 
> The misleading by Fondreist was done in the process leading up to the purchase - very deceptive - nothing illegal.


I understood the original post to state that the shipping box had the imprint "Made in Taiwan," not the product itself. I completely agree that Fondriest's web and print advertising is uncommonly deceptive.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

jordan said:


> The original Pedal Force RS and ZX models were ADK made frames and they are somewhat different from the new RS2/Fondriest.I would venture that they have changed the factory-possibly to Topkey,the maker of Specialized frames,among others.One clue is the FACT logo,same as on the Tarmac and a similar curved top tube design to Specialized frames.The new RS2 is also lighter than the prior ADK models.The RS2 also does not resemble the Advanced frames- which did not made the PF frames in the past.*It is too bad that PFand Fondriest,among others will not reveal the factory of origin*.



I agree with you; why not ID the frame maker? We use Advanced and ADK. 

Advanced, ADK, Martec, and Topkey make most frames you see and they are all good. From these makers you can see frames marked Motobecane, Specialized, Fuji, Kestrel, Felt, Jamis, Windsor, Scott, Cannondale, Trek, Look, Bottecchia, and so many others that it is hard to list them all. 

You can not find a poor quality frame coming out of these factories; but there are differences in designs and weights. Axman, Carbotec, and others also make great frames.

And just as the number of makers of CF increases and the prices start to drop; we are starting to see more demand for high-grade steel and Ti. Plus the industry is stating to look more towards a serious push with new maganisum technology.

It is exciting all the options we have as cyclists
more than ever before


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm confused. 
We are told that all BD frames are made in Taiwan.
ADK does its manufacturing in China.
Discuss.


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## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

sokudo said:


> I'm confused.
> We are told that all BD frames are made in Taiwan.
> ADK does its manufacturing in China.
> Discuss.


I have an ADK frame and it definately says on the frame than it was made in Taiwan. Although based on this discussion it could be untrue. Where did you find this info?


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

WheresWaldo said:


> I have an ADK frame and it definately says on the frame than it was made in Taiwan. Although based on this discussion it could be untrue. Where did you find this info?


I have an ADK frame too, and quite happy with it. Mine was unlabeled and doesn't say where it was made. The box had Taiwan all over.

Nevertheless, google finds the following:

"Management and R & D based in Taiwan and strong production in CHINA.
Head company in Taichung Taiwan and factory in Hui Zhou CHINA -
--Location: Hui-Zhou CHINA,(North of Sheng-Zhen) 3 hours bus drive from HKG airport. "
http://translate.google.com/transla...irefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&hs=AI

"Company Address:
Tai Chuang Kang Rd
Taichung,
407, TAIWAN

Factory Address:
Hui Shui Rd,Tungjinag Ind Zone,Shuiko Zhen,Huizhou
Guangdong,
CHINA"
http://www.bicyclesb2b.com/work/b_index.jsp?supplier=30213&industry=BI


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

zac said:


> S
> Asian CF is largely of dubious quality, they copy and copy poorly. It is even more suspect when the entire frame is assembled there, as quality control is non-existent.


LOL. The Trek fanboy club is in full effect, gents.

Giant, Specialized, Orbea, Kuota, Felt, Cervelo, etc., all use Asian carbon.

You should tell them their bikes are crap. I'm sure they'd love your input. It would be a shame to waste such valuable knowledge by limiting it to roadbikereview.com.


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## LookDave (Sep 29, 2007)

FondriestFan said:


> LOL. The Trek fanboy club is in full effect, gents.
> 
> Giant, Specialized, Orbea, Kuota, Felt, Cervelo, etc., all use Asian carbon.
> 
> You should tell them their bikes are crap. I'm sure they'd love your input. It would be a shame to waste such valuable knowledge by limiting it to roadbikereview.com.


Amen!! All due deference to the argument that they may well be overpriced, and to not-so-great finish quality on some of the Cervelos, etc. But there is no data indicating major structural quality issues in the frames from the companies Fondriest Fan mentions. Hospital emergency rooms and intensive care units are NOT full of the thousands of riders of those frames when the frames spontaneously disintegrate or combust on mountain descents  !


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## adlerburg (Feb 1, 2008)

*Where's my bike made....*

A bit disturbing, but it clears up some questions...
Where's my bike made


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## bwana (Feb 4, 2005)

adlerburg said:


> A bit disturbing, but it clears up some questions...
> Where's my bike made


Not really, writing "as far as I know" and "it is my understanding" is hardly authoritative. Also, the article says that some frames are made in Asia. That is far from specific, as Asia encompases Taiwan, China, etc., even Iran for that matter (although I really doubt the latter). What the article does point out is that the law is set up to prevent the customer from really knowing anything.


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## adlerburg (Feb 1, 2008)

Well, speaking with the Scott rep before pulling the trigger on the new Addict LTD, he confirmed that ALL their CF frames are made in Taiwan.... It didn't dissuade me from the purchase, but I would've preferred it if one of the highest end bikes were made here.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> LOL. The Trek fanboy club is in full effect, gents.
> 
> Giant, Specialized, Orbea, Kuota, Felt, Cervelo, etc., all use Asian carbon.
> 
> You should tell them their bikes are crap. I'm sure they'd love your input. It would be a shame to waste such valuable knowledge by limiting it to roadbikereview.com.


Fanboy? What is your name again?


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

LookDave said:


> Amen!! All due deference to the argument that they may well be overpriced, and to not-so-great finish quality on some of the Cervelos, etc. But there is no data indicating major structural quality issues in the frames from the companies Fondriest Fan mentions. Hospital emergency rooms and intensive care units are NOT full of the thousands of riders of those frames when the frames spontaneously disintegrate or combust on mountain descents  !


LookDave: While your example is a little extreme, I will concede that my blanket statement was also. My point is that some (not all), and perhaps, many, of these frames are of dubious quality. If they cannot even get their finish right (we both agree on that), what is beneath the surface? I am sure there are quality manufacturers. And they will rise to the top in time, as they develop a reputation in the industry and amongst riders.

We all know it, so why the secret? For many composite frames their C.O.O., indeed their manufacturer, is uncertain. We cannont even say with certainty, that XYZ bike company's frames are manufactured by the Asian company they typically deal with...(TREK included, for their non OCLV frames). What are they hiding? Why are they making it so difficult and obfuscating the issue? Fondriest drips high end Italian art, they have a great heritage, but of late, they are all manufactured in Asia. The irony is to demand that only Campy be on them.

High End Frames: I have no problem with lower quality frames being sold at a fair price (what ever that is) as long as the parties to the transaction are aware of the details. I have serious issue with high end, and highest end "Euro" or "American" bikes being passed off as "built in..." often, "hand built in..." when indeed they are not. There are very few high end bike companies doing in house manufacture, for their top frames, at least as far as composites are concerned. And this is a shame. 

Custom: Maybe custom will become more popular as riders become more sophisticated and discerning? But I guess as long as a certain pro team rides a certain bike, they will always be popular no matter where they are nailed together.

zac


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## LookDave (Sep 29, 2007)

zac said:


> LookDave: While your example is a little extreme, I will concede that my blanket statement was also. My point is that some (not all), and perhaps, many, of these frames are of dubious quality. If they cannot even get their finish right (we both agree on that), what is beneath the surface? I am sure there are quality manufacturers. And they will rise to the top in time, as they develop a reputation in the industry and amongst riders.


Zac, no disagreement with you on any of that. My Look 565 with perfect finish retailed for significantly less than some of those frames with finish problems, and that's instructive, I think. Same with a Kuota I bought a while back. While perfect finish doesn't guarantee a solid frame, and imperfect finish doesn't guarantee a junk frame, the question of overall quality control by both the factory and the company labeling the bike is raised.


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