# Another new guy getting fitted (Giant Defy)



## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

I've been riding a Cannondale Quick for the last few months and have enjoyed it a great deal (currently 25 miles a week at a 12.5 mph avg). So much so I have decided to get more serious and ambitious... I have set a goal for myself to do a century by the end of the riding season. Obviously I shouldn't attempt such a distance on a fitness bike, so I'm in the process of getting a new road bike. Just to be clear, I don't want to race, I want to be comfortable and efficient on my new bike.

The Cannondale is an XL and we have our good days, and our bad days fit wise. The LBS gave me an "eyeball" fitting... usually my shoulders and rear end start hurting before anything else on a long ride. I visited Wrench Science, here are my stats:

Frame Size center-to-center: 55 cm
Frame Size center-to-top: 57 cm
Overall Reach: 70.36 cm
Saddle Height: 74.58 cm
Handlebar Width: 42 cm

Your Measurements 
Height: 71.50 in
Sternum Notch: 59.00 in
Inseam Length: 33.25 in
Arm Length: 26.50 in
Shoulder Width: 16.50 in
Flexiblity: 3
Weight: 190.00 lbs
Foot Size: 11.00 USMens 

That's where I've been, here's where I am... I've ridden a couple of different bikes (Trek 2.1 & 1.5, Giant Defy 1) and I really like the feel of the Giant. The new LBS is also pushing me towards an XL with the Defy, but that seems to run contrary to what Giant's sizing guide recommends. Which if I'm reading it correctly would seem to indicate I need a M/L or maybe an L, but certainly not an XL. The LBS says he's pushing me up a size to bias the ride towards that of comfort rather than speed. When I rode it, it seemed to fit the lower half of my body perfectly, but I couldn't reach the hoods comfortably. I would say the hoods were about 1.5 inches too far away. He says shortening the stem will bring the hoods within reach and is more than willing to make whatever adjustment are necessary.

I guess what I'm after here is a reality check. Does the new LBS pushing me up a size to increase comfort make sense? I fear I'm over thinking this, but something in my gut is telling me something is not quite right.

Any comments or opinions would be great. Thanks in advance!
John


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## MADMAXB (Mar 1, 2010)

U can look here on this sizing chart u fall in the xl frame requirements. 
click on the road bike size chart
http://www.ebicycles.com/article/bicycle-frame-size-charts.html#road-bike-frame-sizes



If u have the means u might jump up a few defys and get the defy advanced 3 better bike and better ride i got the defy advanced 3 over the defy 1 after riding both the advanced rides better.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I have a Defy Advanced. I'm 6'3 and bought the large frame. I tried the XL, but it was just too big for me. Some bike stores will push you toward whatever they happen to have in stock. I'm not saying that's what's happening here. I think you should get the proper size for your body type. I'm a big guy with 37" sleeve length, & a long torso. I have relatively short legs. My pants inseam is 32". Even with the sloping top tube I had a hard time standing over the XL. So if you get the XL I would assume you're bigger than me, yes?


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

MadMax: Thanks for the link, that certainly clears it up! I've been looking at the chart on Giant's website and they say that the XL is for people who are 6'3" to 6'7", that's what raised the first "red flag" with me. As for the advanced, I'm trying to stay under $1500 and that one is just out of my range.

Versatile: I'm only 6' tall, but I guess my legs are a bit longer than yours. The stand over for the XL is "snug" on me, but not enough to make me nervous about hurting myself in the event of an ungraceful dismount. I was also concerned about being pushed towards the XL for inventory reasons, this Defy is a 2010 model and he's making me a deal on it. That was the second "red flag" for me, he doesn't have a L in stock that I can try.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

k5jvc said:


> I was also concerned about being pushed towards the XL for inventory reasons, this Defy is a 2010 model and he's making me a deal on it. That was the second "red flag" for me, he doesn't have a L in stock that I can try.


When I first read your initial post, I gave the Giant dealer the benefit of the doubt, but did think that sizing you up to an XL was a stretch (pun intended). Now, after reading more, I think that if you're interested in pursuing that model bike, you should consider visiting another dealer that has a large.

I also think that you should branch out, visit some other LBS's and test rides some other brands/ models. Doing so will expose you to slightly different geometries/ fits and also give you an opportunity to shop for shops along with bikes. The better LBS's will be an invaluable resource both pre and post purchase, initially providing sizing/ fit assistance and subsequently tweaking fit as you build saddle time. 

Regarding fit charts and online calculators, my advice is to ignore them. IME, more times than not they only serve to confuse and mislead. Working one on one with a fitter is far more reliable because you can discuss cycling experiences, fitness/ flexibility, types of riding (casual, recreational/ fitness, competition), fit preferences and have bikes of interest set up accordingly.


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

PJ: I think you're probably right, there is another LBS that carries Giant about 20 miles from here. I'll drop in on them this weekend and see if they have one. As for other brands, I really would like to try out a Secteur, but none of the LBSs that carry Specialized keep them in stock. I'm starting to think that is a business decision so that the cheaper bike doesn't cannibalize sales from the Roubaix. They always have plenty of Roubaix bikes in stock.

Trying to find something with a relaxed geometry, a 105 group (subjective, I know), costing less than $1500, *and* in stock, *and* in my size is proving tough.


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## MADMAXB (Mar 1, 2010)

If that bike dealer has a Giant Rapid in large there basically the same frame just has flat handlebars. U can try it for stand over height.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

k5jvc said:


> PJ: I think you're probably right, there is another LBS that carries Giant about 20 miles from here. I'll drop in on them this weekend and see if they have one. As for other brands, I really would like to try out a Secteur, but none of the LBSs that carry Specialized keep them in stock. I'm starting to think that is a business decision so that the cheaper bike doesn't cannibalize sales from the Roubaix. They always have plenty of Roubaix bikes in stock.
> 
> Trying to find something with a relaxed geometry, a 105 group (subjective, I know), costing less than $1500, *and* in stock, *and* in my size is proving tough.


Yes, unless you're in the middle of the more popular frame sizes, it sometimes tough to find bikes to test ride. That's why (depending on locale) it pays to call around a 60+ mile radius inquiring about the availability of bikes of interest. No one said finding that right bike was going to be quick or easy.  

I agree that the Secteur is worth a look. If you haven't already done so, approach the owner/ manager and ask if he'd be willing to order one with the understanding you'd be under no obligation to buy. Early in the season, some LBS's are willing to gamble that you will buy either that bike or another from them, but if not it's just added to their inventory. May be worth a shot.

FWIW, some other bikes worth consideration are:
Felt Z series
Jamis Satellite (steel)
C'dale Synapse

Lastly, I'm not questioning your prerequisites because it's your money, but don't sell Shimano's Tiagra group short without giving it s try. It's 9 speed, but with standard (~12-25) gearing all you'll be missing is one cog in the middle of the cassette. Hardly noteworthy, IMO.


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

PJ: As far as the charts go, you're talking about charts published by third parties, right? Charts published by the manufacturer should be accurate (at least as a starting point in the fitting process), don't you agree? If no bike sizing chart is accurate how can a consumer ever educate themselves enough to keep from being taken advantage of?


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

MadMax: Thanks for the tip, I'll keep my eyes open for the Rapid on my next visit!


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

> PJ: As far as the charts go, you're talking about charts published by third parties, right? Charts published by the manufacturer should be accurate (at least as a starting point in the fitting process), don't you agree? If no bike sizing chart is accurate how can a consumer ever educate themselves enough to keep from being taken advantage of?


i have a defy 1. it's 1 size too big for me. my LBS pushed me towards the larger size, not sure why. (Large. I should be on a M/L). i had a 3rd party fitting done and basically, i can't get my ideal bike fit on the bike because it's too big and the geometry is too relaxed. 

relaxed geometry doesn't always mean more comfort. everyone's body is different and my old "upright" bike setup is much less comfortable than my new bike setup that is much more aggressive. fit charts try to cover a wide range of body and body types and tries to generalize the ideal fit based on a nominal size or top tube number. the truth is that there's a lot more to it, and a good bike shop should do their best to actually fit you to the bike, instead of eyeballing it and trying to move inventory.

fwiw, i've had my defy for about a year and change and i'm getting ready to sell it because it doesn't fit me. life's too short to ride in pain!


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

You have similar dimensions to me. I'd recommend the ML over the large. You'd need a stem that had a good rise to make it comfortable for you. (take a look at my gallery and look at the spacers I have on my bike, you'll see what I mean!)
Some dealers cut off all the extra head tube, so you don't have spacers under the stem. This is bad, and if that shop does that, definitely go somewhere else. I think it's ridiculous to try and get you on an XL. 
Also consider the Specialized Roubaix with the Giant. The Trek isn't as suited to comfort as the two above listed.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

All of the "this rider to that size" charts are inaccurate, whether they come from the manufacturer or someone else.

Fit has to do with the rider's individual proportions, flexibility, and power-to-weight ratio. Most fit charts don't ask more than the rider's height, and those that ask for a bunch of dimensions (like Colorado Cyclist) still don't incorporate flexibility and power-to-weight ratio. At least Colorado Cyclist gives three different fits to choose from.

The idea of sizing up for comfort is a little old fashioned, IMHO. I sometimes wonder if it dates back to when the only difference between bikes of different sizes was head tube length, and stems only came with a very short quill. You can now buy stems in a ton of different sizes and angles, but you can't fix bad weight distribution. Shortening a stem too much results in bad handling. (Not shortening the stem, per se, but that it shifts your weight to the back of the bike. Regardless, I think that it's not a bad rule of thumb to say that if a bike doesn't fit with at least a 90mm stem, it doesn't fit.)

Tell your dealer to build up a large for you, and see what you think of it. I did something similar when I bought my 'cross bike, and I'm glad I decided to be "Type A" about it. It's now my best-fitting road bike. When I got on the right size, it was almost an epiphany.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

k5jvc said:


> PJ: As far as the charts go, you're talking about charts published by third parties, right? Charts published by the manufacturer should be accurate (at least as a starting point in the fitting process), don't you agree? If no bike sizing chart is accurate how can a consumer ever educate themselves enough to keep from being taken advantage of?


Both Andrew and charlox5 have given you their answers on this (and I agree with both), but I'll answer in my words...

When I say ignore the charts, I mean manufacturer as well as third party. As was stated, all they do is take a cyclists height, generalize thier body dimensions and offer sizes suitable for that rider. Many overlap sizing recommendations, rendering the charts useless, because 'ballpark' doesn't get you sized. Spending 20 minutes with a knowledgable fitter will.

The online calculators only go one step further in taking a riders proportions into consideration, but even then all they do is offer a range of measurements that'll work, which brings me back to my advice to spend 20 minutes with a knowledgeable fitter. Any with experience will pin down your sizing/ fit requirements far better, because they're working one on one with you - seeing you on the bike. There's really no substitute for that.

As far as your question..._ If no bike sizing chart is accurate how can a consumer ever educate themselves enough to keep from being taken advantage of?_ I would offer this.

If you feel the need to educate yourself to avoid being taken advantage of, you're visiting the wrong bike shops. Like any other shopping experience, there are not so good, good, better and best places to shop, and LBS's are no different. 

I think this thread has already helped you avoid one possibly not so good shop, so now you've learned what to look out for. Hopefully one of the better shops will show you what you can expect, and that's someone who'll discuss any cycling experiences, type of riding you're interested in, goals, fitness/ flexibility, then size/ fit you to bikes of interest prior to test rides. Far better and more precise (and personalized) than any charts or online calculators will do.

Find a good bike shop, then trust them to do their job.


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

Charlox: Thank you for the cautionary tale. I don't feel quite so self conscious about my paranoia now. 

Peanya: That's a really nice bike and the posture you have on it looks spot on the money. Good tip on the stem as well, I'll keep a look out for that. I agree with you that I may just need to swallow hard and consider a Specialized Roubaix, or at least ride one for experience sake.

Andrw: That's disappointing about the charts, that means that the only way to educate yourself is to go out and make mistakes. I'm glad I bought a fitness bike first, otherwise I would be making decisions with even less information than I have now. It's funny you should say 90mm as the cutoff, with all the numbers floating around from Wrench Science I calculated that I would need an 80mm stem to make this Defy fit me. It'll be interesting to see what the LBS actually put on there.

I am going to continue being a "type a." Apparently it's what's necessary to ensure you get a bike that fits. Thanks to everyone for being so supportive and helping me out.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Well, your mistakes don't necessarily have to cost you a lot, although it can be harder with the first road bike.

Just ride a lot of bikes. When you ride a model that's in the ballpark size-wise, ask to ride that model a size up and a size down. You'll start to get a sense of what "good" feels like. Try to ride at your normal effort level - my road bike miraculously becomes much better fitted when I'm doing the tempo rides for which it's laid out, and not so well fitted if I'm going really slowly. One of the strengths of drop bars, for me, is that I still have the flat part of the bars to ride on if the hoods are too far. I do think it's really important to get the bike to fit right with the hoods as a primary position, though, because that gives you places to go both for increasing and decreasing your effort.

If there's nothing about a more expensive bike that makes you feel, "Wow, this is pretty sweet" in comparison to a cheaper model, chances are that you're right. For me, there are a few key differences that I notice working up the pricepoints, but after about $1500, they get very subtle. Many of them only become important in racing or particularly high mileage, too.

Finally, like PJ says - you're shopping for a shop, too. Vote your dollars and future business for the shop that you feel is trying to get you on the right bike. You'll be somewhat tied to them by the purchase unless you want to pay for all future tuning and fit touch ups a la carte. (Not that this stuff is necessarily free at the shop you buy from, but you should get at least one free tuneup, and it's nice to have a relationship with a shop.)


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

k5jvc said:


> Charlox: Thank you for the cautionary tale. I don't feel quite so self conscious about my paranoia now.
> 
> Peanya: That's a really nice bike and the posture you have on it looks spot on the money. Good tip on the stem as well, I'll keep a look out for that. I agree with you that I may just need to swallow hard and consider a Specialized Roubaix, or at least ride one for experience sake.
> 
> ...


You don't have to go out and make mistakes. You just need a minimally competent local shop! I really, really think that based on your own test ride and my knowledge of the Defy line of bikes, the shop that is trying to fit you on a Defy XL is just plain wrong, and therefore incompetent until proven otherwise. You could try a different staffer at the same shop or find a shop that you feel more confident with. Like someone else pointed out, there's a lot of bikes with similar "style" to the Defy and they've been mentioned. I'll bet they all have a model w/ similar pricepoint to what you're looking at in the Defy. Don't pay attention to all the little details beyond that because within any given price point, the differences are usually either a wash, or important only to those who REALLY know what they want.

Second, my daughter has a Giant OCR, which I believe is very similar if not identical in geometry to the Defy. The more I get to know that bike, the more impressed with what a good design it is for many people. It can be as racy or relaxed as you want it to be. It's got more tire clearance than most bikes these days - for example it's got significantly more than my Felt Z which is a similar style bike. I can fit 32mm tires on her Defy but can barely fit 28s on the Z. (not to knock the Z, I love it!).

Anyway my best advice is to simply find a shop you have more confidence in and see if you can find a bike you like there. Fit is more important than the type of bike it is, and supprort from the shop is critical for a fairly new cyclist.


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

So I took half the day off and bounced around to three more LBSs. I also backed out of the Defy and got my money back. I rode more bikes than I can remember right now, but these were the standouts:

Allez Comp Compact M2 Apex (1,380)
Orbea Onix T105 (expensive, 1,899)
Specialized Roubaix (expensive, 1,899)
Bianchi Via Nirone 105 (1,399)

What's even better is that I discovered an LBS that is very close to me, and has some of the most knowledgeable, easy going, and helpful staff I have yet to experience. I spent several hours asking questions, riding bikes, joking around. Fantastic! We'll just refer to them as CLBS, Cool Local Bike Shop. 

I rode the Specialized bikes and the Onix at the CLBS... as it turns out, the Onix is my personal unicorn. I was dumbfounded at how natural it felt, I won't bore you with the adjectives... or the euphoric expletives that poured from me as I rounded the first turn of the test ride. The price tag dangling from the handlebars reminded me why it wasn't on my list initially. Even with them knocking a few hundred off the MSRP, it would leave me with an altered budget for about two months and nothing left over for odds and ends like new pedals (I could reuse my Wellgo toe clips from my Quick tho..).

The responsible thing to do is go with the Allez. Which falls into the *nearly* euphoric category. Why did it come in second place to the Onix? I can't put it into words, but I suspect after the CLBS works their magic with the Specialized fitting process (video cameras, computer, test stand) the Allez may tie the Onix. Atleast I hope so.

I have a 1:00 PM appointment for the fitting tomorrow afternoon, I just don't know which bike I'll be riding. Again, thanks so much for all the feedback and support!


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

Oh, and just for reference the sizes I rode for the Specialized bikes were 56cm, the Bianchi and Onix were 57cm.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Sounds like you nailed it! A great LBS (I mean, *C*LBS) and two bikes that pique your interest. If the shop is including a BG FIT, IMO you've pretty near struck gold. It's doubtful you'll get the full 'pro' fit, but even facets of it will get you fitted properly on the bikes.

Just a FYI, since you offered that you've been sized to bikes in the 56-57cm range, I thought you might like to know that puts you in between a M/L and L Giant Defy (depending on fit preferences), but definitely not an XL, so you were right to walk away from that uncool LBS.

Good luck tomorrow, and please update this thread with your experiences.


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

...and we have a winner... Allez Comp Compact M2 Apex










The bike is stock except for the Avatar comp gel saddle and Look Keo pedals. The fitting was fantastic! I'll post more details on the fitting another post, it was a lot to take in.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Nice!


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

The decision:

The decision to go with the Allez was several fold. I went back to Bicycling magazine and read their review again, which was very convincing and made the bike appear to be in line with my personal goals. Eric at the CLBS confirmed this. I then reviewed my budget... If I got the Onix, then there is nothing left over for pedals and shoes, which is even more important now that I know the shop will be putting me through the BG fitting process. If I went with the Allez, not only would I be getting something that I can grow into (a century), but I could also afford good pair of clipless pedals and shoes. I had an idea the pedals and shoes would be important to the fitting process, but I wasn't prepared for just *how* important they would be. Allez it is.

The fitting:

The first fitting decision that was made was mine, that Riva saddle Specialized puts on their bikes is a torture device. My three friends went to sleep from blood loss two minutes into the test ride. Eric pulled the Avatar off the shelf and installed it, blood flow was restored on the next test ride. The body geometry part of the fitting came next.

The first thing Chris had me do was to walk towards him while he watched my gait. He immediately asked me what the nature of the injury to my right leg was. Whoa. Let's put this into perspective, I've been fitted for running shoes at least four times over the last 10 years (once at RunTex in Austin), no one has ever observed the remnants of my broken ankle from '98. Chris tells me my right foot is "kicking out" while my left is not. Not to worry, we'll address it. What followed was a series of ride, adjust, coach iterations to adjust the seat (including checking a plumb line from my knee to the crank). Once the seat was adjusted he asked me to pedal at 75% power and he would video my pedaling motion and make more adjustments. When he told me to stop pedaling I could tell he was amused at what he was watching, he invited me over to look at the video. I think my pedaling style could be best described as the Magilla Gorilla style. I'm shocked I didn't break his trainer the way I was bouncing around! 

Once we composed ourselves he began pointing out the differences in motion between my left and right leg. My left leg was staying pretty much straight on the vertical plane, the right one was kicking out of the vertical plane at different points during the stroke. He asked me for my (new) shoes and made some adjustments to my cleats to compensate for what he was seeing in the video. About that time I hit him with a random thought, just about every ride I go on now my right pinky toe goes to sleep. He concluded it must be a pinched nerve, and probably related to my ankle injury. He put a shim under the insole of my shoe, under the ball of my foot, but on the big toe side, not on the pinky toe side. His theory was that my weak ankle was causing me to roll my foot and put too much pressure on the outside of my foot, causing the pinched nerve. I put my shoes back on and we did the 75% test again... wow. What a difference those adjustments made! Really, really glad I bought the shoes and pedals! 

We moved on to the handlebars, measuring the angle of my arms relative to my torso was 95 degrees. I explained that I felt a little stretched out, he explained (very gently) that I needed to improve my flexibility. He allowed me to make the choice, adjust the stem in 10mm to get a comfortable 90 degree angle, or leave it as is and work on getting my flexibility where it needs to be. I chose to leave it as is. No adjustments were made to the stock handlebar setup.

The result:

I rode the bike 6.5 miles home from the CLBS. It felt fantastic. No pain, no discomfort and with a big silly grin on my face. Even my toe managed to stay awake for the trip. Chris is going to email the videos from the session to me this week, I'll find a place to upload them to and link to them so that everyone can laugh at my gorilla riding style, hairy legs and all.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Great update, thanks for posting. As you mentioned, pedal system set up is an integral part of the fit process, so I agree that you were right to get it done with the BG FIT. 

Specs fit system is generally highly regarded, but like many have said, no matter the fitting process followed, the fitter makes the difference and it sounds like your guy was top rate.

I'd be interested in seeing the vids, so pls continue to update this thread, and enjoy your new ride!!


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

very nice, sounds like you just got the perfect bike and the perfect setup and found the perfect shop. congrats!


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## Fish_Sticks (Apr 5, 2011)

Great update, and if you don't want to post it, could you PM me the name of the shop that did your fitting / purchase? It sounds like we are in the same geographical area and I am in need of a good fitting.


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## k5jvc (Apr 18, 2011)

Fish: Well, I guess I didn't want to mention any names to begin with because I didn't want to accidentally throw anyone under the bus. Now that I'm out the other side with an awesome bike, I owe them some recognition.

405 bicycles, Norman Oklahoma. They're actually closer to Moore than Norman, right off of Indian Hills Road and I-35.


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