# Via Nirone to Sempre



## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

Hoping somebody will be able to steer me in the right direction. 

I currently have a 3 year old 53cm Via Nirone and I am contemplating buying a Sempre. The Via Nirone was my first bike and according to bikefit experts in Edinburgh it is actually too small for me. Now I do occasionally get pain in my lower back on longer rides and my knees do hit the handlebar ends when out of the saddle climbing. My cycling style is commutes to work 17 miles each way 3 to 4 days a week, a 60 mile run at the weekend and a 100 mile event once a month. My aim is to increase my speed, I currently average 16-17mph and I am looking to work on increasing this to 18+ mph and want a bike suitable for the task. 

My measurements are height 5' 8.5'' with a 32'' inseam. Now the rub is that I like the handling style of the Bianchi compared to that of my winter bike a Condor Fratello which is 55cm. The Fratello handles like a gate compared to the Bianchi, slow turn in, slow response to power etc. The Bianchi puts a smile on my face while the Condor doesn't. 

I would like my next bike to react as good as the Via Nirone currently does however I am wondering how much of this response could be due to it being a size too small (it also has 90 cm stem and 38cm Handlebars which compares to 100cm stem and 42cm handlebars on the Fratello). I also recall a post from Lolamunky who has similar sizing to me and rides a 53cm Infinito. 

To add further fuel to my confusion I attempted to study the geometries for the Nirone, Sempre and Infinito and from my inexperienced view the geometry of the Via Nirone appears more comparable to the Sempre than the Infinito which confuses me as the Infinito is part of the C2C family. This has led me to discount the Infinito - is this wise??

If the Sempre will keep the smile on my face what size should I opt for??

Thanks


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't think the nirone is too small for you. I good fitter should be able to easily get it dialed with a longer stem and some seat setback. Upgrading to a sempre or an infinito will not likely net you any additional speed if that is your main goal.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Check the geometries again. You should find that the Infinito sits between the VN7 (relaxed) and the Sempre (almost critracer) in geometry. Nevermind the extended head tube. Even the Oltre is more relaxed than the Sempre.


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## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks Guys - 

KBWH- in relation to the geometries, I have been using the following geo charts, extracted below:

A1	AS	B1	BS	C	D	E	F	G	G1	G2
Via Nirone	530	500	535	522	408	68	135	585	74	71.5 6
Sempre	530	500	535	521	406	68	130	585	74	71.5	6
Infinito	530	500	535	521	408	68	155	585	74	71.5	6 

Looking at the above charts it shows the following head tube sizes for a 53cm frame:
Via Nirone: 135mm
Sempre: 130mm
Infinito: 155mm

This appears to be the largest difference in the frame geometries (as shown above), maybe I am reading these incorrectly, but to me the the Sempre appears more comparable to the Via Nirone than the Infinito either that or there are other geometry figures not disclosed that have a significant bearing on the bike function. 

thanks


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

I think I heard my name from across the internet so here I am to talk about 53cm Bianchi's 

53cm is your size if you're 5'8" with a 32" inseam. I can almost guarantee you need a 100mm stem and 42-44cm bars. Doesnt matter which frame you choose as long as its a 53cm you'll be fine. You could ride a 55cm sempre and it might feel like a 53cm because of the geo but a 53cm will give you the proper amount of setback for your saddle.

It sounds to me like you might like the Infinito more with its very stable steering and very compliant ride as opposed to the sempre which feels more like a crit racer. With that said the sempre is cheaper and if you find a good deal you'll be just as happy with your choice in the end.

Also I second what someone said before.....do not buy a $2K bike and then not get a professional fit. Seriously, its like buying a $2K suit in the wrong size because you skipped getting it tailored.

Lastly do yourself a favor and get a good saddle and wheels so you can enjoy your purchase to the fullest. I recommend a cutout flat profile saddle to help your back. Spec Toupe/San Marco Mantra/Selle Italia (any cutout model). For wheels get some good sub 1500G wheels and see how much more enjoyable climbing is.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

I stand corrected, coleshal. The all have the same head tube angle in size 53 (as opposed to where I operate: 57/59). I did not expect that. Sempre and Infinito have the same 1 mm shorter front-centre than the VN7, and the Sempre has 2mm shorter chain stays than the other two. 
Get the prettier one...


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## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks guys, your responses have been very helpful and much appreciated. The reason for change is due to a concern of potential frame damage following a collision with a van - appears to be a crack in the BB area.

Lolamunky - I hear what you are saying regarding bike fit, but the problem is that I went for a bike fit and they said the 53cm frame is too small - trying to source a reputable bike fitter local to me (Glasgow/Edinburgh, UK) is proving to be a problem.

Anyway I have ordered a 110mm stem to try it out for size and hopefully this will but me at ease that the 53cm frame is correct. Wheels are not a problem as I have a nice set of handbuilt Mavic open pros on Royce hubs. Saddle will definitely have a look at.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

Did the fitter tell you 53cm was too small after fitting you or just when you told him what size your frame was. Bianchi 53cm's are more like 54cm and the 55 is a true 55. You will be fine with either size but one will feel more nimble and the other more self correcting. Sempre in 55cm wouldnt be a bad idea simply because it would smooth out front end stability at the cost of agility....Infinito and Via Nirone I woujld say 53cm only.


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## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

The advice from the fitter was after having conducted the fitting for both my bikes - the Fratello (55cm) and the Bianchi (53cm). I believe they use the Bikefitting.com system. My measurements using the Competitive Cyclist Calculator are: 

Gender M 
Inseam 82 cm 
Trunk 67 cm 
Forearm 33 cm 
Arm 68 cm 
Thigh 59 cm 
Lower Leg 54 cm 
Sternal Notch 144 cm 
Total Body Height 173.4 cm


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm the same size as you and I can't see myself on a 53. All of my bikes have always been 54s and the Bianchi 55 is way closer to any 54 I've ever ridden. The Bianchi has a 55 cm virtual top tub length. My favorite bike ever had a 55. Cannodales 54s have a 54.5 cm top tube. I'm currently on a 54cm Cannondale and can't possibly imagine myself on somthing smaller. The 55 Bianchis are closer to the Cannodales size 54. If you look at head tube and virtual top tube numbers most 54s and Bianchis 55s are very close. A 53 would be way to cramped. My steel Bianchi (55cm)and my Cannondale (54cm) are almost identical in size.
I say no way to a 53.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

I'm 5'9 with 32. I'm on a 55 with 130mm stem. Can't imagine the 53 either.


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## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks Guys, I will try the current bike with the longer stem and see how that feels before I make a final decision on size. My biggest concern with going for a 55cm in the Bianchi is that I hope it won't dull the handling down to that comparable to the Fratello.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

The size shouldn't affect the handling. It's about the geomitry not the size. 
I'm curious how many spacers you have under your stem currently.


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## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

I have 2 x10mm and 3 x 5mm spacers under the stem - a total of 35mm. I was planning to move some when the new stem arrives but have no idea how many or what the impact will be.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

Maybe I am an outlier at 5'9" 32.5" inseam and comfortable on a 53cm Via Nirone and Oltre. I have a relatively short torso and long legs so that could contribute to my fit being ok on a 53cm and the same not being true for you.

Just remember that all your contact points are moveable so the idea of a 53cm being too small vs a 55cm is kind of impossible. Its about handling...I personally dont like my bikes to feel like a boat underneath me. 

the difference in virtual tope tube length is 1.5cm with about 5mm being behind the BB and 1cm in front of it. Which means going from a 20mm setback seatpost to a 25mm setback and a 100mm stem to a 110mm stem will result in the same size bike as far as contact points go.

With that said its a crap shoot.....the ONLY reason I would see to move up to a 55cm would be if you couldnt put the saddle as far back as you need due to no more useable rail on your current seatpost. Other than saddle position I cant see how one frame could be right or wrong......just different.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

For reference...my fiance is in sick shape and flexible...she is 5'7"and rides a 53cm with saddle height of 718mm and a 90mm stem. I ride at 722mm and a 110mm stem at 5'9"


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## cooleshal (Aug 25, 2010)

Lolamunky I really appreciate your input on this matter - as we are comparable size I will try and mirrror your setup on my bike and see how it goes.

Can you tell me what height of spacers you have under your stem. I currently have 35mm and today have moved 10mm to the top so will try the bike tomorrow with 25mm under the stem. I will play about with stack height until the new 110mm stem arrives later in the week. 

Regarding saddle setback this is at the max - the max being where the front of the seat clamp meets the stop sign. Using a makeshift plumb line I have just measured the setback and the nose of the saddle appears to be approx 4cm behind the BB. My saddle height is 72cm.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

I have 25mm of spacers.....yes my knees can touch the bars when climbing out of the saddle btw but if I push the bars out another 10mm I feel to stretched in the hoods and drops. I've just learned to hover a little closer to the saddle and I use 165mm cranks which helps. I use the short cranks to lessen my hip angle when I ride in the drops and while climbing.

What saddle are you using....the rail position can sometimes be the determining factor in a frame size if you really love your saddle. I know my Adamo allows me to ride a 53cm TT frame but an arione would require a smaller frame or a very adjustable saddle clamp system.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Lolamunky said:


> I have 25mm of spacers.....yes my knees can touch the bars when climbing out of the saddle btw but if I push the bars out another 10mm I feel to stretched in the hoods and drops. I've just learned to hover a little closer to the saddle and I use 165mm cranks which helps. I use the short cranks to lessen my hip angle when I ride in the drops and while climbing.


Or, you could just get a bike that fits you (55cm). Just a thought.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

My saddle is dead in the middle of my seatpost on a 53cm with a 110mm stem....thats exactly how a bike is supposed to fit. On a 55cm my saddle is on the end of rail coming forward and I use a 100mm stem and 10mm less in spacers. 

Contact points remain the same therefore a 55cm with my contact points in the same places would produce the same effect and my crank length has nothing to do with frame size.

If anything a larger frame would move the center of the bike forward which would force me to lean further into the handlebars when out of the saddle. If you have longish legs for your height then hitting the bars like that is inevitable unless you like to really extend your arms an additional 1cm to reach the hoods on a 120mm stem. Either way I would rather have a shorter top tube and smaller frame so I can use a longer stem for handling. If you're my height and using a 100mm or shorter stem your going to lose handling.

Before I ordered my Oltre I got a very comprehensive fit from Bike Effect in Santa Monica which is one of the better fit centers in all of Southern California and I asked if I should move to a 55cm and even though Steve the owner was surprised he was also sure 53cm was in fact correct.


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## Bianchi-67 (Mar 3, 2012)

I am 5' 4" and I ride a 53cm VN7 without too much problem.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

A problem with knees hitting the bar could be amended by using handlebars with shorter reach and a longer stem.


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

I see all this advice, and I want to hope it is correct, BUT;

How on earth can you fit a person without seeing them on the bike?
Does back and hip flexibility play a big part in this?
How about overall body shape and dimensions also play a big part?
How about the way they ride? 

Because you are 5'8" and ride a ??? Doesn't make the next 5'8" person fit on the same size.

Sorry for the rant, but fitting on the internet to me is a bit silly!

As for the OP. You need to find someone you trust, that knows something about fitting a bike, and the style of ridding you want to do. Then work with that person. Even if you have to travel to find that person. Doing this on the internet is NOT in your own best interest. IMO


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

jr59 I agree with you 100%....but as a Bianchi owner of a bike in the size in question I can still help him by sharing my experience being the same height as the OP. 

My guess is that the OP does need a 55cm after he said his saddle was all the way back on the seatpost. I find generally that the placement of your saddle on the rails indicates if the frame is the right size for the rider. Mine is dead center so I am confident 53cm is my size. If his is on the ends of the useable rail then he can either run a small frame for the handling or a medium size one for the stability. Racers usually like bikes to run small.....touring is the opposite.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

Lolamunky said:


> jr59 I agree with you 100%....but as a Bianchi owner of a bike in the size in question I can still help him by sharing my experience being the same height as the OP.
> 
> My guess is that the OP does need a 55cm after he said his saddle was all the way back on the seatpost. I find generally that the placement of your saddle on the rails indicates if the frame is the right size for the rider. Mine is dead center so I am confident 53cm is my size. If his is on the ends of the useable rail then he can either run a small frame for the handling or a medium size one for the stability. Racers usually like bikes to run small.....touring is the opposite.


Please post a picture of your bike. I'm interested in seeing the set up.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Lolamunky, not all seatposts have the same amount of setback. Therefore not all saddles will be mounted in the same posistion if saddle is in the correct spot . Some posts have 0 and some have as much as 25mm. 
I've been riding my 54 cm Cannondale with a 0 setback Thomson. I have always felt out of posistion. If you are too far forward over the BB you will be using to much of your quads and not enough of your glutes. I just switched out to a 18mm setback Thomson post and imediatly felt better. My saddle felt more comfortable and I felt like I was generating more power.
Sat. I did some hard intervals and by Sun night my glutes were sore. There was my proof.
Remember, saddle posistion has nothing to do with bar reach. Saddle is set it relation to BB.
Virtual top tube length and stem length are what set your reach.
Many people make the mistake of moving their saddle forward or back to get the correct reach and not getting the proper sized bike or stem.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

T K said:


> Lolamunky, not all seatposts have the same amount of setback. Therefore not all saddles will be mounted in the same posistion if saddle is in the correct spot . Some posts have 0 and some have as much as 25mm.
> I've been riding my 54 cm Cannondale with a 0 setback Thomson. I have always felt out of posistion. If you are too far forward over the BB you will be using to much of your quads and not enough of your glutes. I just switched out to a 18mm setback Thomson post and imediatly felt better. My saddle felt more comfortable and I felt like I was generating more power.
> Sat. I did some hard intervals and by Sun night my glutes were sore. There was my proof.
> Remember, saddle posistion has nothing to do with bar reach. Saddle is set it relation to BB.
> ...


How did it feel with a 20mm shorter stem then? What size stem were you running previously?


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## jr59 (Mar 30, 2011)

T K said:


> Lolamunky, not all seatposts have the same amount of setback. Therefore not all saddles will be mounted in the same posistion if saddle is in the correct spot . Some posts have 0 and some have as much as 25mm.
> I've been riding my 54 cm Cannondale with a 0 setback Thomson. I have always felt out of posistion. If you are too far forward over the BB you will be using to much of your quads and not enough of your glutes. I just switched out to a 18mm setback Thomson post and imediatly felt better. My saddle felt more comfortable and I felt like I was generating more power.
> Sat. I did some hard intervals and by Sun night my glutes were sore. There was my proof.
> Remember, saddle posistion has nothing to do with bar reach. Saddle is set it relation to BB.
> ...



I'll add saddle rails as well. Not all are equal.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> How did it feel with a 20mm shorter stem then? What size stem were you running previously?


I didn't need to put on a shorter stem. My saddle was too far forward, not my bars. I had the correct stem length for me, 100mm. I have shorter arms. Now everything is perfect.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

T K said:


> I didn't need to put on a shorter stem. My saddle was too far forward, not my bars. I had the correct stem length for me, 100mm. I have shorter arms. Now everything is perfect.


But you just said reach isn't set by saddle position. Going 20mm back without changing your stem changed your reach significantly didn't it? How do you know then that a 20mm longer stem with your old post wouldn't have had the same effect? Or 10/10?


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

redlude97 said:


> But you just said reach isn't set by saddle position. Going 20mm back without changing your stem changed your reach significantly didn't it? How do you know then that a 20mm longer stem with your old post wouldn't have had the same effect? Or 10/10?


Yes, it did change my reach. My reach was too close. Now it's perfect.
I know a 20mm longer stem with my old post would have not been correct because I'd still be sitting to far over the bottom bracket and my leg angle would have still been wrong. Again, saddle position is set in relation to BB not your bars.
Bikes are not like cars, you don't slide your seat up to reach the steering wheel.


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## redlude97 (Jun 29, 2010)

T K said:


> Yes, it did change my reach. My reach was too close. Now it's perfect.
> I know a 20mm longer stem with my old post would have not been correct because I'd still be sitting to far over the bottom bracket and my leg angle would have still been wrong. Again, saddle position is set in relation to BB not your bars.
> Bikes are not like cars, you don't slide your seat up to reach the steering wheel.


I'm well aware of how seat setback works. But what you said


> Virtual top tube length and stem length are what set your reach.
> Many people make the mistake of moving their saddle forward or back to get the correct reach and not getting the proper sized bike or stem.


sounds exactly like what you did. You used a seatpost adjustment to set your reach. It happened that you needed to increase your setback while at the same time increasing your reach because your fit was way out of wack. The proper procedure would have been to get the setback right for your leg length, then adjust the stem length for your proper reach.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Let's just pretend my bike was set up perfect. Then I put a 0 setback post on moving my saddle forward and screwed it all up. Because that is basically what I did.
I had a 0 setback post lying around when when I put the bike back together with all of the origanl parts after being apart for some time. As soon as I got on I knew it was not right. I finally got a set back post and put it on and now it is back to perfect.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

I'll try and get a pic up soon. I need updated shots of my Via Nirone anyway


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

Few notes....I am hyper aware of setback...Oltre has a 20mm setback...my Via Nirone has a deda seatpost with about 23mm setback and my TT bike has 0 setback. If you are riding a 54cm with a 0SB seatpost then you are effectively riding a smaller frame because you're moving closer to the BB. 

In my opinion you pick your frame size by your saddles relative position on a 20-25mm setback seatpost (the industry average). If you're dead center on the rails and the saddle relative to the BB is in the perfect place then thats your frame size....if you're at the end of the rails in one way or the other thats the direction of frame size you should be moving to.

With that said I prefer the smallest frame I can ride while still maintaining my saddle close to dead center on the rails.

Side note about the Oltre....the sempre is not more aggressive it just has a steeper head tube angle. The Oltre is on a different level of stiffness that makes the ride feel much more aggressive then simply fork angle to the ground.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

Also saddle to BB distance does not indicate glute vs quad use. Your hip angle will change the point at which you load the glute vs quads and that will effect your setback. Once you compensate for the hip angle then you figure out the optimum setback.

A TT position needs to be further forward because of the acute hip angle which moves the power zone down 1-2 numbers on the pedaling clock.

A climber wants maximum setback to an open hip angle in an upright position but sacrifices comfort on the flats.

Crit/Flat riding you want to be more centered for a 45 degree balanced torso angle.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

There's been a lot of talk about saddle to BB. What is the relationship we're talking about here?


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

Your hip to ankle/foot connecting is a kinetic chain which your knee i the middle of it. When pressure is applied through the chain and the two fixed points are in the proper places (hips on saddle + saddle in correct position) and (foot pressing 1/2 way between the 1st MT and 5th) then the knee should travel in a straight line and not bow inward or out in relation to the hip.

The cleat portion of this fit is easy, but finding the perfect hip pivot point is the challenge. When the hip is in the correct spot relative to the preferred rider angle (90 degree for TT....45 degree for road etc) then pressure should flow evenly through the knee on both sides so as to not cause knee pain either in front or behind the patella.

We refer to saddle behind BB because regardless of the frame the two contact points can always be in the same positions to each other. A rider with a 40mm setback and who uses 170mm cranks can set up any 170mm cranks and that same saddle on any other bike and maintain an identical kinetic chain length.

So saddle behind BB is the fixed distance from hip to ball of foot regardless of frame size.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Yes, no matter what size frame you are on, your butt, if correct would be in the same place in relation to your BB. You need to have your butt in the correct place then you can adjust your reach. You don't slide your saddle up or back to get your reach.
I will dissagree though that changing your saddle position forward or back does not change muscle recruitment. I have read this and experienced it. Go ride a TT bike for the first time, you will have sore muscles you didn't know you had.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

I ride about 50 miles a week road and about 80 miles a week TT. If you're not using the same muscles in TT as road position then your fit is bad. The only reason you should feel a different sore the next day after TT rather than road is your hamstrings will be sore if you arent flexible since power output is happening in a much more accute angle of hamstring vs hip angle.

You dont push with different muscle groups, you simply rotate and push the same muscles through a slightly rotated power zone. If you sit too far back you will push your pedals with your glutes and calves...if you come to far forward you will push with your quads most of the time. For all hip angles there is a sweet spot where the 2 major groups are balanced but the balance is the same just rotated between TT and road.

If your idea was correct then no one would ever move their saddle right behind the BB for TT and yet thats exactly what those frames do with 78 degree seatubes. Champion TT riders do no sit 25mm behind the BB and push with all quads as a result.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Lolamunky said:


> If you sit too far back you will push your pedals with your glutes and calves...if you come to far forward you will push with your quads most of the time.


I think we are saying the same thing. Just in a different way.
I actually run my saddle on my TT bike at 79 degrees. And I'm not sure what idea you are talking about.


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## mackgoo (Mar 2, 2004)

I thought for seat set back you just put the crank arm at 3 O Clock drop a plumb bob from your knee and you should be on your spindle.


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## Lolamunky (Jul 28, 2010)

Knee over pedal spindle KOPS......is a good rule of thumb.....but its just a starting point


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

mackgoo said:


> I thought for seat set back you just put the crank arm at 3 O Clock drop a plumb bob from your knee and you should be on your spindle.


Ya, but then some people say you put it on the front of your knee. Some say the that little bone bump on the side of your knee. 
Then the next guy gets out a computer and video camera.
I like the tried and true methods too to get you close. And I think most people after some time on the bike can get to know what feels right and make some tweeks along the way.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Nice talking to you guys today, I'm out. Going to go ride. 
I have a Porterhouse and a coldy waiting for me when I get back. 
Then, I just picked up some new cable housing today to finish puting together my brand new TT bike. Want to get it done tonight. Can't wait for the first ride.


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## BianchiTyler (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm 5'8" 32" inseam and my LBS swore to me that a 55 sempre was the same size as most 54's (which is what I measured)...So being a novice I decided to go with it. Especially when first getting into biking its hard to tell if the bike is the correct size when it "almost" fits. It wasn't until I started racing and going on century rides that I started having a lot of pain. I tried getting a zero degree setback seat post and shorter stem. I finally went into a different bike shop (the shop I ride for) to have a professional fitting and was told that the bike was to big for me. I was sold a bike at the other shop because it's what they had in stock….Not because it fit me. Unfortunately this happens a lot. I even installed an 80mm stem to try fix the problem but it didn't really help and it made the steering a little iffy. I now have purchased a 53 sempre and absolutely love it. I still have the zero degree setback seat post on but am back to my 100mm stem.


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