# Please explain sandbagging to me



## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I am coming from mtb, and I am new to competitive road/cross racing. So, what is the point of sandbagging? Here in Seattle there are two cross series, one is low-key and unsanctioned by USAC and the other requires the license. It seems to me that people are downgrading themselves for the low key race. For example, the MFG website says that Cat 4 is for newbies that know how to ride a bike, and Cat 3 is for slowpokes with cross experience. But there are definitely people with cross experience racing in the 4s.

Wouldn't it make more sense to upgrade yourself for the lowkey race in order to get better for the races that "count" towards actual upgrade points? Is it really that satisfying to dominate the lowest possible category?


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

foto said:


> Is it really that satisfying to dominate the lowest possible category?


Seems to me you already figured out what a sandbagger is on your own. Unfortunately yes it is satisfying to some to do this. Sandbaggers do indeed suck.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Are they just getting practice? Are they racing multiple times in a day? 

Around here, the first race is $25 or $30 and the second race is $5 or $10. With that in mind, I plan to race the 40 minute C race in the morning to warm up and get familiar with the course and then do my real race later in the day. (Who knows how competitive I'll be racing SS against geared riders in the C race though.)

If someone completely outclasses the lowest category then people will take note. The rider will not get the respect he expects, either from himself or others. If it happens enough times, one or two people will ask, "When are you going to move up, you dirty sandbagger?"

That's just the way it goes. 

But you shouldn't worry too much. Just race your race.


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## beston (Jul 4, 2008)

My first cross race was two weeks ago. I signed up in the 'beginner' category only to find that at the start line, most of the guys (there were 12 people in my category) clearly had a reasonable amount of experience. I saw a few guys riding very nice carbon cx bikes and they had pretty good dismounting skills. In the end, I finished last by a sizable gap.

Later, I found that there was prize money to be had, even in the beginner group. I would imagine that a few of the guys were downgrading themselves to get some prizes.

I'm not really too bothered by it though. It was a great experience and I've already done another race (and didn't finish last!).


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

Well being eligible to race and then racing more than one race a day is one thing. Intentionally not cat-ing up or cat-ing down at the non USAC races and crushing the field is another. Nothing wrong with the first scenario IMO.


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

To steal your prizes.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> But you shouldn't worry too much. Just race your race.


Certainly, I am not too worried about it, I am pretty used to losing races.  I was just trying to figure out where I stand. At non USAC mtb races I usually finish in the middle of the Expert field. But at cross, I am in the middle of the Beginner field! That's why I am a little, like, what's going on? I know the disciplines are different, but there should be SOME fitness/skill set crossover...

Now, I am not saying everyone beating me is sandbagging. I am fine with where I stand, just trying to get a feel for a new scene, and doing it online instead of working.


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## tja (Oct 30, 2005)

Sandbagging is what it is, but 'baggers will always get called out on it. I was at the MFG race yesterday and there were two guys in the Cat 3 race who had at least 30-40 seconds on the rest of the field and they were getting heckled a bit. 

My personal ultra-scientific rule for cat-ing up is:
-A full season with a couple top 10 finishes;
-3 top five finishes in your current category;
-2 top three finishes; and/or
-win one race by 30 seconds or more, time to play the Jeffersons and get movin' on up.

You want to race where you're competitive, right? I'm currently a cat 4, but I'm aiming at my first rule for moving to the 3s. For what it's worth, MFG actually has a separate beginner category. Here's how they break it down:
Beginner = Little or no racing experience in any cycling discipline
Cat 4 = CX beginner with experience in other cycling disciplines
Cat 3 = Intermediate
Cat 2 = Advanced
Cat 1 = National Level

Cat 3 is definitely not for the pokies. And cat 4 races are always going to have some fast folks because of super fit road racers that never raced cross. And as far as equipment goes, some people just have money to burn, I guess. Hell, I've seen plenty of juniors racing on zipps.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Fair enough. Thanks for the insight.


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## WA/SScrossracer (Oct 4, 2010)

Yeah there are some baggers out there, my advice to the decent cat 4's is that they should try the SS race, especially in MFG -SS is like cat 1-4 racing with the cat 3's. One of my friends yesterday had to go the other way, he missed his ferry and even though he races cat 3 about midpack or so I think, they let him do the cat 1/2 race, pretty sure he would've been SOL in the regular Seattle series race. The little North Bellingham series is another good series no license smaller fields and good place to maybe try a stepup race-cat 3 for a cat 4 or 1/2 for a cat 3.


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## tja (Oct 30, 2005)

I should add that you want to race where you're competitive _and_ challenged. A person who is consistently in the top five of his current category is no longer being challenged imo. But at the same time, if cat-ing up means you're routinely getting lapped, then you're certainly no longer competitive. It's a tricky balance. And another way I've been keeping track of my progress is seeing where my lap times would put me in the next category up. If I could be in the bottom 2/3 without getting lapped, then I'd be comfortable moving up.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

WA/SScrossracer said:


> Yeah there are some baggers out there, my advice to the decent cat 4's is that they should try the SS race, especially in MFG -SS is like cat 1-4 racing with the cat 3's.


Not sure what you mean here ...

Down in P-town, the SS race has guys with cat 1/2 experience and fitness along with dudes with cat 4 fitness and everyone in between. Generally the experience level of the SS racers is high even if fitness is lacking. Lots of dudes doubling up with SS and the A race.


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## TWB8s (Sep 18, 2003)

'cross is a bit different but there's a similar division for road racing here in Wisconsin. There's all kinds of USAC sanctioned events and then there's the "WiSport" series. No license for WiSport as everyone is lumped into a mass start. I won't do the WiSport events other than the TT's for the simple reason of unknown rider ability. I don't want to have a guy who just bought his first bike the night before line up next to me. Categorization helps keep the skin on my body where I like it. I do know Cat 1's, 2's and sometimes visiting Pros will do a WiSport road race. The time gap is massive between them and the non-USAC riders. WiSport gives out medals so it isn't about the money. There also is the issue of event safety. WiSport doesn't have officials, corner marshals, follow or pace vehicles and I don't think they have a good relationship with local law enforcement agencies. USAC events do a much better job with event safety. Hopefully that isn't an issue with a non-USAC 'cross event.


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## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

Gripped said:


> Not sure what you mean here ...
> 
> Down in P-town, the SS race has guys with cat 1/2 experience and fitness along with dudes with cat 4 fitness and everyone in between. Generally the experience level of the SS racers is high even if fitness is lacking. Lots of dudes doubling up with SS and the A race.


Yep, that's exactly what he means. A wide range of abilities in the SS races.


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## 196nautique (Sep 23, 2005)

Another problem is the series points, and call ups. 750 racers at MFG yesterday made for some large fields. Those who are in the series lead get a call up. Those called up are off and racing while the rest work there way through the maze of racers. I know racers that don't want to move up because they are racing for the series lead, and don't want to give up their call up. I dislike that there are series standings for Cat 3 or 4, keeps people there longer than they should be.

The top 5 in the Cat 3s yesterday would have had no problem in the 1/2 races. They wouldn't have won, but they wouldn't have been lapped.

I do prefer self seeding races over USAC races though. But I am a little biased against USAC.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

196nautique said:


> I do prefer self seeding races over USAC races though. But I am a little biased against USAC.


Who isn't? :lol:
It kinda sucks that Seattle has the two series, alternating weekly (sorta), but one is "serious" and USAC-sanctioned and one laid back. 
It also sucks that USAC doesn't offer a discounted "Cyclocross only" license, like OBRA does for a mere $10!
*$10 !!!*
You could encourage a LOT of riders for that- and OBRA does just that.

That said, I'll be racing MFG (and SCX... mebbe) in Seattle next month. (Look for the guy who's crying about having to leave Portland :cryin


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

License fee is why I am dragging my feet registering for SCX. I am buying a USAC license for 2012 in 2.5 months, doesn't make much sense buying one now for a handful of cross races.

That and the long trips, seems that the closest SCX race is about the same distance as the furthest MFG, except for Marymoor which I missed due to foot (knuckle) dragging.


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## scrub (May 19, 2010)

Another Seattle Cat4 35+ rider here. I've decided that our groups are so big that the only race is between me, the guy in front and the guy behind. Plus I get a superiority thing going on by passing geared riders on my SS!


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## smcnees (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm racing different classes in MFG and SCX, but not for sandbagging reasons. I've raced 4's 35+ for the last 3 seasons and this year jumped up to the 3's 35+ for the MFG series. I got OBLITERATED at the 1st MFG race, but did better last weekend. Didn't come in DFL, had fun and didn't get lapped. That was the goal. 

I'm staying in the 4 35+ for SCX solely due to scheduling. If the SCX 3 35+ wasn't the last race of the day, I'd do that one but with a wife and 3 1/2 year old both with short attention spans and a ferry ride required to get home, I just don't want to be there all day on Sunday. 

The contrast between the 2 series is night and day from a 'vibe' perspective to me. MFG with their laid back demeanor, no license requirements, varying locales from season to season and smartphone check in at the registration tent are great. SCX with khaki clad race officials banishing called up riders to the back for being 30 seconds late to the line and those same officials 'observing' at certain locations on the course (saw that at Marymoor??) make it all seem way more serious. Don't get me wrong, the folks that give up their free time to put on the series get my utmost respect. I don't have the time to do it.


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## JeffS (Oct 3, 2006)

196nautique said:


> I know racers that don't want to move up because they are racing for the series lead, and don't want to give up their call up. I dislike that there are series standings for Cat 3 or 4, keeps people there longer than they should be.



This is my single biggest complaint with cross classing. IMO, if you win a Cat4 season title, you deserve a slap in the head. That means that you stayed in the class about four times longer than you should have.

I'm completely at a loss to explain why there are no mandatory upgrades out of 4.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

Sandbagging is kinda like staying in high school for 6 years so you can be the smartest in your class.


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## goneskiian (Jan 13, 2005)

d2p said:


> Sandbagging is kinda like staying in high school for 6 years so you can be the smartest in your class.


Or the biggest dude on the football team. :smilewinkgrin:


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## Chico2000 (Jul 7, 2011)

JeffS said:


> This is my single biggest complaint with cross classing. IMO, if you win a Cat4 season title, you deserve a slap in the head. That means that you stayed in the class about four times longer than you should have.
> 
> I'm completely at a loss to explain why there are no mandatory upgrades out of 4.


:yesnod:


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