# Road shoes - Needs redesigned



## Agent319

I like the road shoe cleat. However, the ease of walking in them is rather uncomfortable. Granted I don't walk much except if I'm doing events. Before and after the race I like to have my cycling shoes on and that's where the road shoes raise their ugly head. The road shoes cool design(less the cleat) and less float are what attract me to the road shoe. Why hasn't the road shoe been redesigned with a recessed cleat like the Mountain bike shoe?


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## tlg

Agent319 said:


> Why hasn't the road shoe been redesigned with a recessed cleat like the Mountain bike shoe?


Because the cleat is wider than the shoe. It can't be recessed. It would take a giant shoe to do that.


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## Agent319

tlg said:


> Because the cleat is wider than the shoe. It can't be recessed. It would take a giant shoe to do that.


What about a ridge wall on the toe then another one after the cleat?


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## SauronHimself

I think recessed cleat designs are exclusive to MTB shoes because those are more for muddy conditions and where walking would be necessary. The fact that very little walking is done in road shoes is why a recessed cleat design hasn't been offered. However, you now have your million dollar idea. Hop to it.


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## JustTooBig

Road shoes are essentially a single-purpose device. They do one thing and do it pretty well. Their performance ON the bike is all that matters; walking comfort -- or lack thereof -- isn't a consideration. 

To modify the design to allow for an inset cleat would add a substantial amount of bulk and weight to the shoe -- and adding weight means it's no longer meeting one of the criteria for a good road shoe.

In some cases, the size of the cleat itself makes the design you propose impossible.

Some road cleats are easier to walk in than others. If none of those are acceptable, something like a SPD-R is likely the best alternative.


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## Agent319

SauronHimself said:


> However, you now have your million dollar idea. Hop to it.


The thought surely isn't novel


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## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> The thought surely isn't novel


No, the thought isn't novel. But, I suspect the market for such a design would be rather limited given the penalties in weight / aero / size that it would probably bring. Without a sufficient market, there's no driver to produce such a shoe. 

Road cycling shoes have a purpose, MTB shoes have a purpose, ordinary street shoes have a purpose, and there are pedal designs to accommodate each type of shoe.


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## Jay Strongbow

Agent319 said:


> The thought surely isn't novel


Do you intend to invent a specific foot surgery that clears room to lower the cleats into the shoe or will you design a road shoe with enough extra platform sole that you can also market it for 70's disco themed parties?


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## tlg

Agent319 said:


> What about a ridge wall on the toe then another one after the cleat?


That would still leave the heel higher, in fact even more so making them harder to walk in. You'd need a ridge on the toe and heel. Now you have a giant shoe with more aero drag.


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## tvad

As has been well stated earlier, different shoes for different purposes. I'm sure somewhere there's a "Cafe Shoe" made. If not, there's your new market.


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## tlg

Jay Strongbow said:


> Do you intend to invent a specific foot surgery that clears room to lower the cleats into the shoe or will you design a road shoe with enough extra platform sole that you can also market it for 70's disco themed parties?


lol... I was thinking the KISS platform model.


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## JCavilia

What kind of pedals are you using? I've been using Looks for decades, and I always carry my Kool Kovers, which make walking reasonably practical and quite safe, if still a little funny-looking.

What Jay humorously suggested is really the issue. Unless you can alter your foot, making the shoe sole thick enough to accomodate a recessed cleat would negate much of that cool design you like. That said, there are a number of MTB shoes that look pretty slick. But to use a recessed cleat, you are of course limited to small-cleat designs like SPD.


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## spade2you

Even if the tread could be made thick, road shoes are very stiff.


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## crit_boy

Agent319 said:


> I like the road shoe cleat. However, the ease of walking in them is rather uncomfortable. Granted I don't walk much except if I'm doing events. Before and after the race I like to have my cycling shoes on and that's where the road shoes raise their ugly head. The road shoes cool design(less the cleat) and less float are what attract me to the road shoe. Why hasn't the road shoe been redesigned with a recessed cleat like the Mountain bike shoe?


I don't get the association of road shoe = less float. Float is determined by pedal and cleat, not shoe. In fact, my road pedals (that i ride with road shoes) have more float than my MTB pedals (that I ride with MTB shoes).

I also don't understand why you walk around in road shoes for any appreciable amount of time b/f or after a race, but that is a different conversation. I think my meaning of race is different than op.


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## 9W9W

Agent319 said:


> What about a ridge wall on the toe then another one after the cleat?


you mean like a ski binding... for a bicycle?

pressure release only! if you're out of them, you're likely done for the day.


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## JCavilia

9W9W said:


> you mean like a ski binding... for a bicycle?
> 
> pressure release only! if you're out of them, you're likely done for the day.


Nah. He just means some bumps on the bottom of the shoe to help with walking.

Clipless pedals pretty much always release in any significant crash anyway, because the foot will twist at some point.


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## ericm979

SPD-SL cleats have rubber bumpers that make walking easier than with other road cleats. But road shoes are not designed to be walked in.

No one I see before or after races is walking around in their cycling shoes. Bring different shoes to walk to registration/porta-potties/podium in.


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## Agent319

Jay Strongbow said:


> Do you intend to invent a specific foot surgery that clears room to lower the cleats into the shoe or will you design a road shoe with enough extra platform sole that you can also market it for 70's disco themed parties?


I don't care what you say... that's funny!


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## Mandeville

I understand and sympathize with OP's issue. The explanations in the reply posts were very clear and informative. Hopefully he will be able to adjust or compromise if he can't find something different than he now has. 

I would be happy if any shoe manufacture may an off the shelf road or MTB cleat shoe that has BOTH a wide toe box AND a narrow heel. Preferably for no more than $150. But whatever the production model shoe's price, (no custom shoes and their giant price please), if they would just make a cleated shoe that COMBINES a WIDE TOEBOX with A NARROW heel I'd be very happy. (I won't even go into the the listed size accuracy of shoes which is all over the place.)

Anyway good luck to the OP.


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## 9W9W

just buy cleat covers already (race compatible). 

/end


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## Agent319

JCavilia said:


> What kind of pedals are you using? I've been using Looks for decades, and I always carry my Kool Kovers, which make walking reasonably practical and quite safe, if still a little funny-looking.
> 
> What Jay humorously suggested is really the issue. Unless you can alter your foot, making the shoe sole thick enough to accomodate a recessed cleat would negate much of that cool design you like. That said, there are a number of MTB shoes that look pretty slick. But to use a recessed cleat, you are of course limited to small-cleat designs like SPD.


I wear a MTB shoe. And yes they make some cool looking MTB shoes but mainly I like the large footprint of the road cleat. I've seen the Kool Kovers but not a fan of things I need to have gathered up to go to a cycling event. That's also one of the reasons I don't wear road shoes because I would have to have a pair of walking shoes then my road shoes. I have enough trouble remembering to bring my helmet, water bottles, shades, and pump.


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## Agent319

crit_boy said:


> I don't get the association of road shoe = less float. Float is determined by pedal and cleat, not shoe. In fact, my road pedals (that i ride with road shoes) have more float than my MTB pedals (that I ride with MTB shoes).
> 
> I also don't understand why you walk around in road shoes for any appreciable amount of time b/f or after a race, but that is a different conversation. I think my meaning of race is different than op.


My first and only road shoe had less float than my current SPD MTB shoe setup and was unaware that Road cleats have a wide range of float. However I like less float and that's one of my reasons for my original post. 

That's just it. I didn't walk around in my Road shoes... who can? That's why I got rid of them. I like the road shoe but I don't like switching out shoes when I get off the bike at events. Rather have a shoe I can keep on when I walk out of the house and when I walk back in and change. 

Yep I don't race. I do events


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## CrankyCarbon

I think it was the Shimano Dura-Ace 7410 pedal that used the same as the MTB cleat. Shimano tried to introduce that system to the road years back. It was not very stable and died quickly.

You could get that pedal used for your road bike. Then you can use your same MTB shoe system with a single sided road pedal, maybe.


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## 9W9W

Speaking of shoe pedal interfaces: I bought the LOOK Blade II. I think my total pedal stack is something like 18mm (5mm for the Mavic shoe and 13 for the blades). Dropped the stem 4mm from prior setup, gained a mil or two of length, happy man. They are beefy, stable (they are really wide) but the old cleat design still squeaks sometimes. 

Cleat covers. They weigh nothing and make great receptacles for used gel wrappers. I'd rather be on point on while I'm on my machine rather than a jack of all trades.


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## tlg

CrankyCarbon said:


> I think it was the Shimano Dura-Ace 7410 pedal that used the same as the MTB cleat. Shimano tried to introduce that system to the road years back. It was not very stable and died quickly.
> 
> You could get that pedal used for your road bike. Then you can use your same MTB shoe system with a single sided road pedal, maybe.


There's new modern versions of that pedal. It's what I run on one of my bikes. 
Amazon.com : Shimano SPD Sealed Bearing Road Pedals Wellgo, Silver : Bike Pedals : Sports & Outdoors
Amazon.com : Lightweight Shimano SPD Wellgo Road Pedals : Bike Pedals : Sports & Outdoors

Combined with SH71 cleats with Pontoons on road shoes. They're pretty easy to walk in.
Amazon.com : Shimano SM-SH71 SPD Cleat Set Float Pontoons (SPD 8-Degree float) : Replacement Cycling Cleats : Sports & Outdoors


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## JCavilia

Agent319 said:


> I've seen the Kool Kovers but not a fan of things I need to have gathered up to go to a cycling event. That's also one of the reasons I don't wear road shoes because I would have to have a pair of walking shoes then my road shoes. I have enough trouble remembering to bring my helmet, water bottles, shades, and pump.


My cleat covers never require gathering up. They are always on the shoes, unless I'm about to actually get on the bike; then they go in a jersey pocket or seat bag. When I get off the bike, the covers go back on the cleats.

You just put all that stuff in a bag, and keep it together.

What do you do when you drive to an event? Wear your cycling shoes while driving the car? Cleats or no, that wouldn't work for me, even if you're talking MTB shoes.


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## MR_GRUMPY

It is forbidden to take more than 10 steps in a road shoe. Any more than that and you are required to remove shoes and socks and go barefoot.
I don't make up these rules, I just clue people in. 
If you want to walk, buy some slip on sandals.
.


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## maximum7

If you used LOOK pedals you could use their grip cleats.


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## velodog

maximum7 said:


> If you used LOOK pedals you could use their grip cleats.


I, for one, have tried them and didn't like them. I found them to be a bit clumsy, and then the rubber bumpers wore out right quick.


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## 5DII

Where do you guys keep your walking shoes and regular clothes at races? The car is usually far away since its hard to find parking


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## ibericb

*Rule 69* // *Cycling shoes and bicycles are made for riding.
*
_Any walking conducted while wearing cycling shoes must be strictly limited. When taking a slash or filling bidons during a 200km ride (at 38kmh, see Rule #68) one is to carefully stow one’s bicycle at the nearest point navigable by bike and walk the remaining distance. It is strictly prohibited that under any circumstances a cyclist should walk up a steep incline, with the obvious exception being when said incline is blocked by riders who crashed because you are on the Koppenberg. For clarification, see Rule #5._


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## den bakker

5DII said:


> Where do you guys keep your walking shoes and regular clothes at races? The car is usually far away since its hard to find parking


how did you get the bike from the car to there in the first place? 
in any case, a small bag with the shoes and cloth in one of the tents


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## mikerp

den bakker said:


> how did you get the bike from the car to there in the first place?
> in any case, a small bag with the shoes and cloth in one of the tents


This ^^^
In my area we just ride the bike from where we park to the race start, or ride it back to the team HQ.


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## froze

There are a few shoes made for biking and walking, for example see: Dice Tan | DZR Shoes Of course this type of shoe is not real good for cycling 100 miles in but 25 to maybe 50 mile (?) range is doable. This shoe is more for riding into town and hanging out at a coffee shop and walking around town with buds and be hip with the looks. 

Also there are mountain bike shoes that are as stiff as a road shoe, I wear a mountain bike shoe on my road bike because I have Speedplay Frogs and cleat on the shoe is recessed so when I walk I don't walk on the cleat; I did that because a lot of times I ride into another town, or go to a lake, etc, or on one of my weekend tours, so I like the ability to walk around. I have a pair of Sidi Duran but I can't comment on them yet since I just got them 2 weeks ago and haven't tried them, but they are stiffer than my old pair Of Mavic MTB Pulse which I didn't like because they weren't stiff enough and caused a burning sensation after about 50 to 60 miles. Keep in mind with MTB shoes you really don't want to be walking 10 miles in them, but a couple of miles is more than doable.

Then there is also commuter/touring shoes like the tennis shoe looking Shimano SH-CT40B, or the fancier casual dress shoe like Giro Republic. The Giro is probably the better of the two that I mentioned for riding since it's more of a touring shoe whereas the Shimano is more of a commuting shoe intended for shorter distances.

I showed some examples there is obviously more than those, but keep in mind when you go with a walking type of capability you do compromise long distance comfort. Some people have great feet and can ride in tennis shoes and flat pedals with no cleats or straps for 100 miles without pain, As I've gotten older my feet aren't as pain free as they once were so I can't ride with just tennis shoes like I use to when I wanted to ride to the beach or some place, so the miles I gave above for riding is probably for the average bike person?

This next point isn't a big deal for me but MTB shoes are a tad heavier which makes some road people cry, but in return you get a more robust shoe, it can shrug off most scrapes without tearing the shoe like a more fragile bike only shoe. 

Also don't buy cheap MTB shoes like I tried to do with initially a pair of $40 Nashbar shoes, than the $100 pair of Mavic's, the Nashbar bottoms wore out fast from walking and weren't comfortable for riding, and for me the Mavic wasn't comfortable and the bottoms were semi slick to walk but held up well to waking on, though not as bad as trying to walk in road shoes. Unfortunately shoes is a trial and error process so you may have to try several before you're happy like I did or you may like the first pair you buy; my road shoes was the first pair I tried and like them a lot, their now 30 years old and I still wear them...that's what I said 30 years old.


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## 32and3cross

I found some there are called mountain bike shoes. For the past year I have been riding nothing but my cross bikes with slicks for road rides. I never found the shoes to be an issue and I can walk in them quite easily. 

When I do ride with my road shoes I use keep on covers on my speedplays and those let me walk quite easily and yet I don't have to carry covers with me. I got the covers because the walk from the bike locker to my desk at work was over slick stone floor (and **** that nonsense about taking my shoes off) but they worked so well I never take them off, good thing to because they allowed me to cross dismount and step over a guy in a crit crash one time, withe regcleats I doubt I could have pulled that off.


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## froze

32and3cross said:


> I found some there are called mountain bike shoes. For the past year I have been riding nothing but my cross bikes with slicks for road rides. I never found the shoes to be an issue and I can walk in them quite easily.
> 
> When I do ride with my road shoes I use keep on covers on my speedplays and those let me walk quite easily and yet I don't have to carry covers with me. I got the covers because the walk from the bike locker to my desk at work was over slick stone floor (and **** that nonsense about taking my shoes off) but they worked so well I never take them off, good thing to because they allowed me to cross dismount and step over a guy in a crit crash one time, withe regcleats I doubt I could have pulled that off.


You walk around in your road shoes with the cleats on but covered? I done that with my old road shoes but it's not something I would want to do for more than a couple hundred feet; I've seen people do that but only for very short distances because everyone I talked to didn't like to walk with them either due to the very uncomfortable bump, plus their very slick to walk on and potentially dangerous especially on slick floors. SpeedPlay does make a new road walkable pedal/cleat combo called the Zero Aero but it's a one entry side only pedal and it's not even on the market yet that I could find. I do carry a tool in my bag that I can remove my road cleats from the shoe and remove the bump but then the plastic bottoms of the shoe is very slick.


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## 32and3cross

froze said:


> You walk around in your road shoes with the cleats on but covered?



Yep all the time, like I wrote I have keep on covers. When I commuted on my road bike it was a long walk from the bike locker up a flight of stairs and across very slick floors so the covers were great, the fact that I could leave them on was a bonus. Now I never take the covers off. I try not to walk around much in my road shoes but when I do I don't have much trouble doing so.


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## JFR

Mandeville said:


> I would be happy if any shoe manufacture may an off the shelf road or MTB cleat shoe that has BOTH a wide toe box AND a narrow heel. Preferably for no more than $150.


Check out the Sidi _Mega _range. It is their wide size and has a more generous fore foot. Retail, however, misses your pricepoint. Try ebay.

To the OPs point... I have Sidi road shoes for my fast bike and Sidi mountain shoes for my cx/training bike (with a set of dirt wheels and a set of road wheels). I log notable road miles in the mountain shoes. The only difference I really notice between the two is off the bike, when I walk. Good, stiff mountain shoes/pedals are the answer to a roadie who wants walk-ability.


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## JCavilia

Agent319 said:


> Yep I don't race. I do events


You don't seem to answer questions or listen to answers, either, but maybe I missed something.

What pedals are you using? What pedals were you using before with your road shoes? 

Again, the _shoe_ has nothing to do with the amount of float. That is determined by the pedal/cleat design. 

And again, do you drive to your "events" with your cycling shoes on? I have MTB shoes that I use on my bad-weather commutes, and I would NOT wear them driving. The thick, stiff sole makes for very bad feel on the car pedals. Not very safe, IMHO.


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## froze

JFR said:


> Check out the Sidi _Mega _range. It is their wide size and has a more generous fore foot. Retail, however, misses your pricepoint. Try ebay.
> 
> To the OPs point... I have Sidi road shoes for my fast bike and Sidi mountain shoes for my cx/training bike (with a set of dirt wheels and a set of road wheels). I log notable road miles in the mountain shoes. The only difference I really notice between the two is off the bike, when I walk. Good, stiff mountain shoes/pedals are the answer to a roadie who wants walk-ability.


That's why I got the Sidi Duran's is because of the toe box was wider than most of the other brands I tried, and the heel area was narrower so my feet moved just the right amount, not too tight and not too loose, according the the LBS guy who helped me. 

My LBS guy rated my Sidi Duran's as stiff as their second most stiffest road shoe which were also among their most expensive shoes next to the stiffest racing purpose road shoes. So they should be plenty stiff for road use. I got the Sidi's on a end of the year close out sale so I was happy there too!


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## bvber

Looks like we are back to this again. 

It's OK to use SPD on road bikes.


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## froze

bvber said:


> Looks like we are back to this again.
> 
> It's OK to use SPD on road bikes.


Not only is it ok but I know that Specialized, and Shimano (I'm sure a few others) even makes a dedicated road shoe that has SPD capability without the need for an adapter, so a person can use a MTB pedal on a road bike, as I have done.


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## froze

JCavilia said:


> And again, do you drive to your "events" with your cycling shoes on? I have MTB shoes that I use on my bad-weather commutes, and I would NOT wear them driving. The thick, stiff sole makes for very bad feel on the car pedals. Not very safe, IMHO.


I've driven my car lots of times with MTB shoes on never had an issue or remotely ran into a safety issue...IMHO of course.


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## tlg

froze said:


> Not only is it ok but I know that Specialized, and Shimano (I'm sure a few others) even makes a dedicated road shoe that has SPD capability without the need for an adapter, so a person can use a MTB pedal on a road bike, as I have done.


Shimano makes a bunch of road shoes that have 2 & 3 hole compatibility. 
I also use the Garneau Glacier winter road shoe. It has both 2 & 3 holes.


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## tlg

froze said:


> I've driven my car lots of times with MTB shoes on never had an issue or remotely ran into a safety issue...IMHO of course.


Me too. More than lots of times. With a stick shift even. Never been an issue. They work better than some of my dress shoes.


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## JCavilia

froze said:


> I've driven my car lots of times with MTB shoes on never had an issue or remotely ran into a safety issue...IMHO of course.


YMMV, of course. Just doesn't feel right to me, but I'm glad to hear you do it safely. I'd rather drive barefoot (which is legal everywhere, BTW, contrary to a persistant urban myth).


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## Warpdatframe

5DII said:


> Where do you guys keep your walking shoes and regular clothes at races? The car is usually far away since its hard to find parking


Your keep your clothes, normal shoes, and everything you don't need for racing in your vehicle. Then Ride to the staging area/building and ride back to the car after the race. It's really not that complex. If you want go back to the main area/building just change and ride bike in normal clothes and shoes.


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## ph0enix

crit_boy said:


> I also don't understand why you walk around in road shoes for any appreciable amount of time b/f or after a race


Isn't that what triathletes do? I imagine they run with swim caps, Speedos, goggles, road shoes and sleeveless jerseys on. I might be wrong.


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## MR_GRUMPY

mikerp said:


> This ^^^
> In my area we just ride the bike from where we park to the race start, or ride it back to the team HQ.


+1....Same for bringing your pit wheels to the wheel pit. 
.....


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## cxwrench

Warpdatframe said:


> Your keep your clothes, normal shoes, and everything you don't need for racing in your vehicle. Then Ride to the staging area/building and ride back to the car after the race. It's really not that complex. If you want go back to the main area/building just change and ride bike in normal clothes and shoes.


Exactly...why is this so hard to understand? You wear your riding kit for riding. You don't hang out in it, you don't parade around in it...before and after you wear street clothes. I can't imagine driving to an event/race in my kit, then riding, then driving home in my kit. That's just gross.


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## ibericb

cxwrench said:


> Exactly...why is this so hard to understand? You wear your riding kit for riding. You don't hang out in it, you don't parade around in it...before and after you wear street clothes. I can't imagine driving to an event/race in my kit, then riding, then driving home in my kit. That's just gross.


When you remember to take your kit.


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## cxwrench

ibericb said:


> When you remember to take your kit.


Touché sir!


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## ziscwg

MR_GRUMPY said:


> It is forbidden to take more than 10 steps in a road shoe. Any more than that and you are required to remove shoes and socks and go barefoot.
> I don't make up these rules, I just clue people in.
> If you want to walk, buy some slip on sandals.
> .


Rules are meant to be broken. I carry the list around with me on every ride to make sure I break at least 3 per ride. I encourage others to do so also. So, I really only have to break 2


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## ziscwg

ibericb said:


> *Rule 69* // *Cycling shoes and bicycles are made for riding.
> *
> _Any walking conducted while wearing cycling shoes must be strictly limited. When taking a slash or filling bidons during a 200km ride (at 38kmh, see Rule #68) one is to carefully stow one’s bicycle at the nearest point navigable by bike and walk the remaining distance. It is strictly prohibited that under any circumstances a cyclist should walk up a steep incline, with the obvious exception being when said incline is blocked by riders who crashed because you are on the Koppenberg. For clarification, see Rule #5._


Great....................:skep: someone else quoting the rules that were meant to mock us.


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## ibericb

ziscwg said:


> Great....................:skep: someone else quoting the rules that were meant to mock us.


Meant to mock us? Really, that's how you see the Velominati's "the rules"? Mocking cyclists? That's quite interesting considering the ongoing interest in cycling maintained by the founder and principals of the site. My perspective on the intent behind The Rules, and the entire site is quite different.


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## velodog

ibericb said:


> Meant to mock us? Really, that's how you see the Velominati's "the rules"? Mocking cyclists? That's quite interesting considering the ongoing interest in cycling maintained by the founder and principals of the site. My perspective on the intent behind The Rules, and the entire site is quite different.


The rules are a bit of whimsy mixed with a bit of reality. Can't take them too serious, just have a little of fun with them.


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## Agent319

cxwrench said:


> I can't imagine driving to an event/race in my kit, then riding, then driving home in my kit. That's just gross.


Where do you change into your kit when you get to the event? They probably have places to change at a race but at events there are no places to change. Well maybe a portapotty could be the place to do it but I'd rather not.


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## velodog

Agent319 said:


> Where do you change into your kit when you get to the event? They probably have places to change at a race but at events there are no places to change. Well maybe a portapotty could be the place to do it but I'd rather not.


Back your car into a parking spot that's kinda protected, open the door, stand behind the open door, take a quick look for anyone who may be offended and change your clothes. Most there are cyclists and understand. You should even have enough time to towel off the sweat.


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## ericm979

I have never seen a place to change at a race, and you really dont' want to change in a portapotty after the event. I'm not skeered of germs but OMG.

If the race is close I drive to it wearing my (clean!) shorts under pants. Otherwise I put them on in the car. Jersey hrm etc. is ok standing outside the car.

After the race, the reverse. Bring a small towel so you can wet it down and sponge off.

I used to do the behind the car door shorts change but it got difficult to park the car so that everyone around is to the front. A couple times I accidently gave some racer's girlfriend a show when I thought all the cars behind me were unoccupied. There's also the under the towel shorts change like surfers do.


"The Rules" started as self-satire of the "roadie" subculture, then people who didn't understand that it was a joke got in on it. It jumped the shark a long time ago.


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## mimason

Agent319 said:


> Where do you change into your kit when you get to the event? They probably have places to change at a race but at events there are no places to change. Well maybe a portapotty could be the place to do it but I'd rather not.


If the event is close I may wear kit under street clothes and change in car after event. You can also do the triathlete thing and bring a big towel and wrap it around your waste undressing underneath. lots of options if you just don't simply dress in car.


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## Camilo

maximum7 said:


> If you used LOOK pedals you could use their grip cleats.


Or Shimano SPDSL, or Time or just about any road pedal other than Speedplay



bvber said:


> Looks like we are back to this again.
> 
> It's OK to use SPD on road bikes.


This. I can't imagine why any bike rider who actually needed walkability for any reason wouldn't just switch to a recessed cleat system with good quality MTB shoes. Sure, I don't disagree with those that say road shoes/pedals are "better' but but really it's a trivial matter, completely outweighed by any walkability issues. I use both and while I prefer the Time / Sidi combo, my similar quality MTB shoes are perfectly comfortable and great even going 60+ miles. If you're racing, I really doubt you'll lose any places in the Peloton using MTB shoes.



velodog said:


> The rules are a bit of whimsy mixed with a bit of reality. Can't take them too serious, just have a little of fun with them.


Does this really need to be said?


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## milkbaby

Rule #5... HTFU


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## tednugent

9W9W said:


> you mean like a ski binding... for a bicycle?
> 
> pressure release only! if you're out of them, you're likely done for the day.


ski boots aren't great for walking either.... I wonder if Look considered that in the first place???

like MTB shoes/cleats... snowboard boots are easier to walk.


----------



## JCavilia

ericm979 said:


> I"The Rules" started as self-satire of the "roadie" subculture, then people who didn't understand that it was a joke got in on it. It jumped the shark a long time ago.


Well put


----------



## ibericb

ericm979 said:


> "The Rules" started as self-satire of the "roadie" subculture, then people who didn't understand that it was a joke got in on it. It jumped the shark a long time ago.


The rules were written with the tongue firmly planted in cheek. But, while written with a good sense of humor, they do reflect the authors sense of the essential elements of those devoted to a road cycling lifestyle. The problem comes when some people take them way too seriously, and miss both the humor and the underlying meaning and intent (see Velominazi in the lexicon). Rule 5 is simply about pushing yourself to be and do better; Rule 9 is an affirmation about self motivation.

They are not to be taken seriously, but behind them is serious consideration of the lifestyle of devoted roadies. Some good insight into the humor with which the rules were written can be found in the Lexicon.


----------



## Agent319

The road shoe needs redesigned when a professional cyclist who just won a stage is giving interviews then gets rushed to the podium before removing his road shoes and falls off the podium because to his road shoes aren't designed to walk in.


----------



## tednugent

Agent319 said:


> The road shoe needs redesigned when a professional cyclist who just won a stage is giving interviews then gets rushed to the podium before removing his road shoes and falls off the podium because to his road shoes aren't designed to walk in.












Apparently, if it's that big of a deal back around 1984 when Look released the first clipless pedals.... they would have done something by then. If it was such a big deal... other companies would not have used the standard Look created.


If pro-cyclists was truly concerned about walking, they would be using mountain bike shoes and pedals instead.


----------



## junior1210

froze said:


> ....
> Then there is also commuter/touring shoes like the tennis shoe looking Shimano SH-CT40B, or the fancier casual dress shoe like Giro Republic. The Giro is probably the better of the two that I mentioned for riding since it's more of a touring shoe whereas the Shimano is more of a commuting shoe intended for shorter distances.
> .........


+1 on the Giro's. I use a pair of Republics with Shimano A530 and it's a combo that works well. The soles are stiff enough to give needed support but very lightweight. The uppers (mine are synthetic) stretch to form to my foot (the way shoes are supposed to), and you can't beat the fit laces give compared to any other closure system. Giro now produces the same shoe in true leather (for a healthy upcharge) in both 2 bolt and 3 bolt patterns. I can walk comfortably, although they are noisy (like how women's heels are), on any surface just fine. They also look great if I'm wearing trousers and take a ride to the store.


----------



## bvber

junior1210 said:


> I can walk comfortably, although they are noisy (like how women's heels are), on any surface just fine.


Why do I get the feeling that you've tried tap dance with it at least once...


----------



## Agent319

Apparently, if it's that big of a deal back around 1984 when Look released the first clipless pedals.... they would have done something by then. If it was such a big deal... other companies would not have used the standard Look created.


If pro-cyclists was truly concerned about walking, they would be using mountain bike shoes and pedals instead.[/QUOTE]

It's not a big deal. My humble opinion is that the road shoe clipping system needs redesigned so that it can be walked in, even if it's just for a short distance.


----------



## tednugent

Agent319 said:


> It's not a big deal. My humble opinion is that the road shoe clipping system needs redesigned so that it can be walked in, even if it's just for a short distance.


It looks like you're making a big deal, since you're so adamant about it.

I have no issues walking a short distance with Speedplay Zero cleats or when I had Look road pedals.


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> The road shoe needs redesigned when a professional cyclist who just won a stage is giving interviews then gets rushed to the podium before removing his road shoes and falls off the podium because to his road shoes aren't designed to walk in.


That's not going to happen - they'll take their shoes off first. They fully appreciate the designed and inteneded use of their road shoes.



> ... My humble opinion is that the road shoe clipping system needs redesigned so that it can be walked in, even if it's just for a short distance.


What is your idea of "a short distance"? I've had Shimano SPD-SL pedals/shoes for ~25 years. While it's a tad awkward, I can readily walk a hundred feet in them. I try too minimize the distance I walk in them to preclude damage to the cleats. If I need to go further, then I will slap on the covers I have, and walk on. It's easier if you don't drop your heels with each step, and the newer cleats have little gripper pads to make walking more secure (les skating on smooth, hard surfaces).

So, how far do you want to walk?


----------



## tlg

Agent319 said:


> It's not a big deal. My humble opinion is that the road shoe clipping system needs redesigned so that it can be walked in, even if it's just for a short distance.


Wow... talk about making a BIG deal.

People walk short (and long) distances in them all the time. They CAN be walked in. Therefore they require no redesign. 




> The road shoe needs redesigned when a professional cyclist who just won a stage is giving interviews then gets rushed to the podium before removing his road shoes and falls off the podium because to his road shoes aren't designed to walk in.


Have you talked to any pros about this "problem". I've never heard it mentioned. I don't think they're complaining. They always seem to get onto the podium just fine.


----------



## Agent319

In this video you see Cavendish bust his hump because he was wearing road shoes. Let's say he broke his hip on this fall don't you think the shoe and cleat would be redesigned? I know we fall all the time but if it's from a poor design then it should be fixed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovSvRFF5oIY


----------



## tlg

Agent319 said:


> In this video you see Cavendish bust his hump because he was wearing road shoes. Let's say he broke his hip on this fall don't you think the shoe and cleat would be redesigned? I know we fall all the time but if it's from a poor design then it should be fixed
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovSvRFF5oIY


Call Cavendish and ask him what he thinks. Let us know what you find out.

I'm 110% sure he'll say he doesn't want heavier less aero shoes.

And no, if he broke his hip no one would be redesigning road shoes because of it. No one.


----------



## Agent319

tlg said:


> Call Cavendish and ask him what he thinks. Let us know what you find out.
> 
> I'm 110% sure he'll say he doesn't want heavier less aero shoes.
> 
> And no, if he broke his hip no one would be redesigning road shoes because of it. No one.


I think they would have. 

Also weren't helmets frowned upon in the tour until someone died after striking his head on the pavement.

Does someone have to die because of slipping and falling due to poor design of a road shoe?

I say no. Cyclist unite!


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> In this video you see Cavendish bust his hump because he was wearing road shoes. Let's say he broke his hip on this fall don't you think the shoe and cleat would be redesigned?


No, I don't. He knew what he was doing, and he was horsing around. He knows well the issue and the risks. Stuff happens, and his slipping and falling wasn't the fault of the shoes.

Road shoes are designed around their functionality. They are intend to be used for riding, not walking. They are optimized to minimize any loss in power being applied to the pedals. Walking comfort and walkability is largely set aside because they are NOT intended for walking. If you need to regularly walk, then choose a shoe better designed for walking. There are a number of options from those like SPD cleated MTB shoes, or caged pedals with our without toe clips. But beware that in choosing those you will likely loose some power that could otherwise be applied to going faster. 

It's a choice. If you want something that doesn't exist, then pursue it as an opportunity.


----------



## tednugent

Must be the brain damage from the fall... since Cavendish still uses road pedals


----------



## velodog

Agent319 said:


> I think they would have.
> 
> Also weren't helmets frowned upon in the tour until someone died after striking his head on the pavement.
> 
> Does someone have to die because of slipping and falling due to poor design of a road shoe?
> 
> I say no. Cyclist unite!


The road shoe is not poorly designed, you just want to use them outside the parameters that they are designed for. 

If you want to walk around just use platform pedals and gym shoes and have at it. But if you want to walk around in your road shoes, just make sure you don't remove your helmet. That way you may bust your hip when you fall but at least you won't hurt your head.


----------



## Agent319

I think those who have switched to the recessed cleat shoes have done so because they can walk in them. Are there any professional cyclist who are using the spd cleat? I don't know. The footprint of the spd cleat is to small for a professional rider which in turn possibly could promote foot problems. If a recessed design was there with the comparable footprint and weight of the road shoe with a company sponsoring the shoe and give them to a professional rider I really don't think a rider would turn them down. As of now what other choice does a professional rider have? None.


----------



## velodog

Agent319 said:


> I think those who have switched to the recessed cleat shoes have done so because they can walk in them. Are there any professional cyclist who are using the spd cleat? I don't know. The footprint of the spd cleat is to small for a professional rider which in turn possibly could promote foot problems. If a recessed design was there with the comparable footprint and weight of the road shoe with a company sponsoring the shoe and give them to a professional rider I really don't think a rider would turn them down. As of now what other choice does a professional rider have? None.


What about the pro's racing cyclocross?


----------



## bvber

Agent319 said:


> Are there any professional cyclist who are using the spd cleat?


Well... https://www.elquivalleyclub.cl/images/lance1.jpg 
Pro bike: Jared Graves? 29er XC race bike - BikeRadar


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> ...
> As of now what other choice does a professional rider have? None.


I seriously doubt a truly competitive pro road racer would be willing to sacrifice even 1 watt of power for improved street walkability relative to current road shoe designs. If you can deliver a design that is every bit as power conservative/efficient as existing designs AND is notably more walkable, then you would have a real winner - build it and they will come. The recreational market (the money) will follow the pro's.


----------



## cxwrench

Agent319 said:


> *Where do you change into your kit when you get to the event?* They probably have places to change at a race but at events there are no places to change. Well maybe a portapotty could be the place to do it but I'd rather not.


You're kidding, right?


----------



## cxwrench

Agent319 said:


> I think they would have.
> 
> Also weren't helmets frowned upon in the tour until someone died after striking his head on the pavement.
> 
> Does someone have to die because of slipping and falling due to poor design of a road shoe?
> 
> I say no. Cyclist unite!


Are you drunk? On drugs? Did YOU fall on your head? Where are you coming up w/ all this drivel?


----------



## Agent319

velodog said:


> What about the pro's racing cyclocross?


Cyclocross rider will sometimes be off their bike. I'm sure all use recessed cycling shoes.


----------



## Agent319

bvber said:


> Well... https://www.elquivalleyclub.cl/images/lance1.jpg
> Pro bike: Jared Graves? 29er XC race bike - BikeRadar


Cyclocross rider will sometimes be off their bike. I'm sure all use recessed cycling shoes


----------



## 32and3cross

cxwrench said:


> Are you drunk? On drugs? Did YOU fall on your head? Where are you coming up w/ all this drivel?


If this guys is not MyHui we should really get he two of them together between them they can redesign the shoes and how we attach tires to wheels, the sky would be the limit.


----------



## Agent319

cxwrench said:


> Are you drunk? On drugs? Did YOU fall on your head? Where are you coming up w/ all this drivel?


Uh, no I'm not drunk or on drugs. I think outside the box and think it's time to redesign a poor design. Anyone who has walked 3 steps in road shoes have to agree with me. If you don't then you must be on drugs or drunk.


----------



## bvber

Agent319 said:


> Cyclocross rider will sometimes be off their bike.


I've seen road bicycle riders do that too.


----------



## 32and3cross

Agent319 said:


> Uh, no I'm not drunk or on drugs. I think outside the box and think it's time to redesign a poor design. Anyone who has walked 3 steps in road shoes have to agree with me. If you don't then you must be on drugs or drunk.


Nope I can walk more than three steps in my road shoes and can function fine. I don't plan on long walks in them tho thats not what they are for. If I do plan to walk around a bit I ride a bike withe mountain bike pedals on them. Honest if I was just planning on group rides and gravel road rides I would only ride mountain bike shoes. Redesiging roads shoes withe recessed cleats makes them .... wait for it .... mountain bike shoes.

If you see this as such a problem then get to work and do something about it. Aside from demanding all of us agree with you.


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> Uh, no I'm not drunk or on drugs. I think outside the box and think it's time to redesign a poor design. Anyone who has walked 3 steps in road shoes have to agree with me. If you don't then you must be on drugs or drunk.


I have no trouble with 3 or 10 or even more steps in road shoes with a bit of care and caution. That said, they are designed for a purpose. which isn't walking. So I don't put on by road shoes to go for a walk, get the mail, walk the dog, ... 

Decades ago I had a touring bike, and with that I regularly expected to get off the bike and walk around. It was fitted with cage pedals and toe clips. The shoes I wore were a pair designed for that purpose - streamlined, stiffer corrugated sole than a street shoe, held on to the cage pedals well, but not a road cycling shoe. They looked a it like a bowling shoe. They were reasonably comfortable to walk around in, but I wouldn't want to use them for serious road cycling where power /speed are a primary consideration, and I have no intention of getting off to go for a walk.

Choose your equipment to fit the task at hand, and realize the limitations that various options impose. If you intend to mix walking and cycling, then choose an option other than typical cleated road shoes with their super stiff soles and bolted on cleats.

I suppose you would like ice skates to be better for walking to, so you don't have to change shoes / skates when you get to or leave the ice?


----------



## tednugent

Agent319 said:


> Cyclocross rider will sometimes be off their bike. I'm sure all use recessed cycling shoes.


They are using mountain bike shoes and mountain bike pedals & cleats


----------



## Agent319

Let me make this perfectly clear. I use mountain bike shoes when I ride. I do that for one purpose only. Because I do get off my bike and want to be able to walk in a coffee shop and not slip and fall. As I have shown cyclist who wear road shoes are more prone to slipping and falling. I would rather wear a road shoe because of the footprint (contact to shoe) is larger and allows for more power I feel but they are awkward to walk in. I think the road shoe cleat is poorly designed and can be made better to allow for an occasional walking with out adding weight or made less aerodynamic. 

If we are talking weight then that is irrelevant actually. If so loose .0005 lbs


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> Let me make this perfectly clear. I use mountain bike shoes when I ride. I do that for one purpose only. Because I do get off my bike and want to be able to walk in a coffee shop and not slip and fall. As I have shown cyclist who wear road shoes are more prone to slipping and falling. I would rather wear a road shoe because of the footprint (contact to shoe) is larger and allows for more power I feel but they are awkward to walk in. *I think the road shoe cleat is poorly designed and can be made better to allow for an occasional walking with out adding weight or made less aerodynamic.
> *
> If we are talking weight then that is irrelevant actually. If so loose .0005 lbs


Excellent! I look forward to seeing your new design. Any forecast on when it will be available?


----------



## Agent319

ibericb said:


> I suppose you would like ice skates to be better for walking to, so you don't have to change shoes / skates when you get to or leave the ice?


That is a good one. But have you ever noticed that where you walk on skates there is a rubber mat?


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> That is a good one. But have you ever noticed that where you walk on skates there is a rubber mat?


Only at indoor rinks. Never saw any rubber mats at the outdoor places, canals, ponds, rivers etc. which is where I did most of what little skating I did.


----------



## Agent319

ibericb said:


> Excellent! I look forward to seeing your new design. Any forecast on when it will be available?


Gather up your friends and each send me $50,000 and I'll get on it. I'll cut you in for a percentage.


----------



## 32and3cross

Agent319 said:


> Gather up your friends and each send me $50,000 and I'll get on it. I'll cut you in for a percentage.



nope its your (IMO terrible) idea fund that yourself


----------



## ibericb

Good luck !


----------



## cxwrench

32and3cross said:


> If this guys is not MyHui we should really get he two of them together between them they can redesign the shoes and how we attach tires to wheels, the sky would be the limit.


^ This ^ :thumbsup:


----------



## tlg

Agent319 said:


> Let me make this perfectly clear. I use mountain bike shoes when I ride. I do that for one purpose only. Because I do get off my bike and want to be able to walk in a coffee shop and not slip and fall. As I have shown cyclist who wear road shoes are more prone to slipping and falling. I would rather wear a road shoe because of the footprint (contact to shoe) is larger and allows for more power I feel but they are awkward to walk in.


Please be more clear. Have you ever actually walked in road shoes/cleats??

How much more power do you think you'd achieve?

I ride weekly with a group of cyclists and we stop at coffee shops. Everyone predominately uses road cleats. I've never (not once) seen someone fall from walking. Not on pavement. Not on wood floors. Not on stairs. Not on tile floors. When entering NJ we walk across the Delaware River pedestrian bridge. We've done this for years with a varying group of 20-30 riders. 
This "problem" you've conjured up in your mind does not exist.



> If we are talking weight then that is irrelevant actually. If so loose .0005 lbs


It's weight and aerodynamics. But yea... for most cyclists it's irrelevant. The power difference is also just as irrelevant.


----------



## tlg

32and3cross said:


> Nope I can walk more than three steps in my road shoes and can function fine. I don't plan on long walks in them tho thats not what they are for. If I do plan to walk around a bit I ride a bike withe mountain bike pedals on them. Honest if I was just planning on group rides and gravel road rides I would only ride mountain bike shoes. Redesiging roads shoes withe recessed cleats makes them .... wait for it .... mountain bike shoes.


This is exactly the solution Agent319 needs should he ever come to reality.

I have multiple MTB and road bikes. I also do frequent group rides where I walk around. All my bikes have MTB SPD pedals. I have 2 pairs of MTB shoes and 2 pairs of road shoes all with SPD cleats. I can ride any shoe on any bike. Unlike Agent319... I have no issues.


----------



## TiCoyote

I'm going to agree with what a lot of people here have said. There are tools that are _pretty good_ for many purposes, and there are tools that are _excellent _for a single purpose. Think about your road bike itself. It's perfect for paved roads, but terrible for mountain trails. There are bikes that will tackle both reasonable well (hybrids) but they don't really shine for any specific purpose. Shoes are the same way. All shoes. My dress shoes are no good for running, I can't wear hiking boots with a suit, and I have a pair of sketchers that I can wear with khakis and probably jog a mile in, but they don't look outstanding or all me to run all that fast.


----------



## froze

Agent319 said:


> Let me make this perfectly clear. I use mountain bike shoes when I ride. I do that for one purpose only. Because I do get off my bike and want to be able to walk in a coffee shop and not slip and fall. As I have shown cyclist who wear road shoes are more prone to slipping and falling. I would rather wear a road shoe because of the footprint (contact to shoe) is larger and allows for more power I feel but they are awkward to walk in. I think the road shoe cleat is poorly designed and can be made better to allow for an occasional walking with out adding weight or made less aerodynamic.
> 
> If we are talking weight then that is irrelevant actually. If so loose .0005 lbs


Mtb shoes are more than .0005 lbs extra their about 50 grms per shoe more due to the walking designed outsole, but if you're not using them for racing than the extra weight is just a stupid thing to complain about. If you do want to race there are road shoes made for SPD (2 bolt) pedals, Shimano has a huge selection of this sort of road shoe, then simply use a road shoe in a race and the MTB shoe when you're just riding and want to walk around a bit someplace.

The stiffness factor is only 1 step down from a top of the line racing shoe to a top of the line mountain bike shoe, if you buy mid level shoes you can find the same stiffness in either. I can ride 100 miles on my mountain bike shoes using Speedplay Frogs on my road bike without issues, but I too want a shoe I can walk in if I go to a different town and want to walk around a bit, or to a lake, etc. Do be careful selecting a MTB shoe, some shoes outsole (the tread) is made of hard plastic or carbon fiber, not much better to walk around on concrete than a road shoe! So find a rubber outsole. Shimano has some very nice MTB shoes and so does Sidi like the Sidi Duran. If you want a hip looking shoe that looks good at the coffee shop hanging with the crowd and don't need a shoe to go 75 miles or more than the DZR Dice Tan shoe is the best bet for looks as is the Quoc Pham line of touring shoes. And if you want the expensive golf country club/boardroom look there is the Dromarti Sport line of shoes. Lots of choices you just have to find the one you want. Most LBS's will carry the Shimano and SIDI line but may be limited in which model they will carry but they can order whatever you want so you can try them before you buy.

I would recommend getting an foot liner that can be selected according to your foot characteristics, this does had a great deal of comfort, especially if you have some sort of footbed now in your normal walk around shoes.


----------



## milkbaby

tlg said:


> Please be more clear. Have you ever actually walked in road shoes/cleats??
> 
> I ride weekly with a group of cyclists and we stop at coffee shops. Everyone predominately uses road cleats. I've never (not once) seen someone fall from walking. Not on pavement. Not on wood floors. Not on stairs. Not on tile floors. When entering NJ we walk across the Delaware River pedestrian bridge. We've done this for years with a varying group of 20-30 riders.
> This "problem" you've conjured up in your mind does not exist.


^This... One of my favorite group rides ends with a couple hours of beer drinking followed by a nice ride home. Almost everybody uses road shoes and cleats (maybe one or two on SPD) and I've never seen anbody fall while walking. Fall while riding, yes, but not walking.


----------



## tlg

milkbaby said:


> ^This... One of my favorite group rides ends with a couple hours of beer drinking followed by a nice ride home. Almost everybody uses road shoes and cleats (maybe one or two on SPD) and I've never seen anbody fall while walking. *Fall while riding, yes, but not walking*.


I've observed this exact phenomena! Obviously riding a bike is infinitely more dangerous than walking in road shoes. I think we need a new thread....

Road bikes- Needs redesign 
I like the road bike. However, the ease of riding them is rather dangerous. Granted I don't ride much except if I'm doing events. The road bikes cool design is what attracts me to the road bike. Why hasn't the road bike been redesigned so it's less dangerous?


----------



## Agent319

tlg said:


> I've observed this exact phenomena! Obviously riding a bike is infinitely more dangerous than walking in road shoes. I think we need a new thread....
> 
> Road bikes- Needs redesign
> I like the road bike. However, the ease of riding them is rather dangerous. Granted I don't ride much except if I'm doing events. The road bikes cool design is what attracts me to the road bike. Why hasn't the road bike been redesigned so it's less dangerous?


I like it. Start it maybe it'll get 100+ responses like mine


----------



## Agent319

tlg said:


> Please be more clear. Have you ever actually walked in road shoes/cleats??


I used road shoes for over a year. Loved them until I walked in them. I am a rather nimble person but many times I felt like I was walking on ice with them. If you say I'm wrong then you haven't walked into a coffee shop with ceramic tile or smooth concrete flooring which maybe the case.


----------



## tednugent

tlg said:


> I've observed this exact phenomena! Obviously riding a bike is infinitely more dangerous than walking in road shoes. I think we need a new thread....
> 
> Road bikes- Needs redesign
> I like the road bike. However, the ease of riding them is rather dangerous. Granted I don't ride much except if I'm doing events. The road bikes cool design is what attracts me to the road bike. Why hasn't the road bike been redesigned so it's less dangerous?


road bikes can fall over... solution.... non-removeable training wheels.


----------



## JCavilia

Agent319 said:


> I used road shoes for over a year. Loved them until I walked in them. I am a rather nimble person but many times I felt like I was walking on ice with them. If you say I'm wrong then you haven't walked into a coffee shop with ceramic tile or smooth concrete flooring which maybe the case.


I got tired of reading this thread, but did you ever say what pedals and cleats you were using with these "road shoes"? It makes a difference.


----------



## tlg

Agent319 said:


> I used road shoes for over a year. Loved them until I walked in them. I am a rather nimble person but many times I felt like I was walking on ice with them. If you say I'm wrong then you haven't walked into a coffee shop with ceramic tile or smooth concrete flooring which maybe the case.


I say you're wrong. Re-read my post....

"I've never (not once) seen someone fall from walking. Not on pavement. Not on wood floors. Not on stairs. Not on* tile floors*."​
Since you're unable to do what most everyone else seems capable of, rather than re-designing the shoe, you could use a crutch.
bike shoe covers


----------



## velodog

Agent319 said:


> Uh, no I'm not drunk or on drugs. I think outside the box and think it's time to redesign a poor design. Anyone who has walked 3 steps in road shoes have to agree with me. If you don't then you must be on drugs or drunk.


If you're not drunk or on drugs you should probably pull your head ou......never mind.


----------



## Love Commander

I have a theory that Agent319 is actually a really advanced spambot that someone is testing out and the "redesigned road shoe" thing is just a mcguffin used to calibrate its responses. Parts of this thread almost read like a cleverbot transcript.


----------



## Agent319

JCavilia said:


> I got tired of reading this thread, but did you ever say what pedals and cleats you were using with these "road shoes"? It makes a difference.


Sorry, missed your question. I used a Look Keo pedal and cleat.


----------



## Agent319

tlg said:


> I say you're wrong. Re-read my post....
> 
> "I've never (not once) seen someone fall from walking. Not on pavement. Not on wood floors. Not on stairs. Not on* tile floors*."​
> Since you're unable to do what most everyone else seems capable of, rather than re-designing the shoe, you could use a crutch.
> bike shoe covers


What are bike shoe covers for? To cover up a design flaw is what they are for. Wouldn't need the covers if you weren't prone to slipping and falling with the road shoe cleat.


----------



## ibericb

tlg said:


> I've observed this exact phenomena! Obviously riding a bike is infinitely more dangerous than walking in road shoes. I think we need a new thread....
> 
> Road bikes- Needs redesign
> I like the road bike. However, the ease of riding them is rather dangerous. Granted I don't ride much except if I'm doing events. The road bikes cool design is what attracts me to the road bike. Why hasn't the road bike been redesigned so it's less dangerous?


Maybe you want to try one of these?


----------



## ibericb

Agent319 said:


> What are bike shoe covers for? To cover up a design flaw is what they are for. Wouldn't need the covers if you weren't prone to slipping and falling with the road shoe cleat.


To protect the cleats when they are walked on, not to improve walkability. Here's what Kool Kovers says about their product
_
When your cleats get worn down, they don’t work right.

And replacing them isn’t cheap.

Keep your cleats working like new._

_WHY USE KOOL KOVERS
Kool Kovers Cleat Covers protect your cleats from the gravel, concrete, and asphalt that chew them up. They keep your cleats looking good and working like they were meant to._


----------



## Agent319

Change happens very frequently with the road bike. Why not the road shoe?


----------



## tednugent

Agent319 said:


> Change happens very frequently with the road bike. Why not the road shoe?


Because the road shoe is not broken


----------



## tednugent

So.... How much material do you have to add to ensure that it has clearance for both speedplay and look style cleats? How much material do you need so that is recessed?

More than a few grams..... I rather wear my MTB shoes and use MTB pedals to walk


----------



## JCavilia

This is stupid. I'm not sure whether he's kidding, or just being obtuse.

agent, look at the size of the cleat, length, width and depth. then look at the width of the shoe sole. then show us how you can recess that cleat into the sole without making it much larger, thus destroying that sleek design you like.

the solution for those who want a more walkable cycling shoe is a pedal design that uses a much smaller cleat, so it will fit into a recess in a sole of reasonable size.

This solution was devised about 25 years ago, with the SPD pedal and its knockoffs. 

If you can devise a solution using a cleat like the Look, one that gets around the physics and geometry of the shoe and cleat, I'll give you the link to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, so you can file your application and make a killing.

BTW, the cleat covers do make walking easier. And they're no trouble at all to use.


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## ibericb

JCavilia said:


> This is stupid.


Yep. Enough already.


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## cxwrench

Agent319 said:


> What are bike shoe covers for? To cover up a design flaw is what they are for. Wouldn't need the covers if you weren't prone to slipping and falling with the road shoe cleat.


Jesus...road shoes do NOT have any design flaws. They're designed for _RIDING_, not waltzing around. If you need to go parading around before/during/after your 'events', pick a shoe pedal combination that works for your needs. Don't whinge on and on about how something has a design flaw that exists only in _your_ pointed little head.


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## velodog

ibericb said:


> Yep. Enough already.











Now it's enough.


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## ibericb

velodog said:


> Now it's enough.


Oooooo ... red damsels.

But they don't look like Sidi's.


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## 5DII

While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


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## ibericb

5DII said:


> While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


I don't need road shoes or cleats to ride a road bike. But like the auto accessories you cited, each designed around its own respective functionality, they make the ride easier / better / more enjoyable / ...


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## velodog

5DII said:


> While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


I would. 

The gov't don't let me buy a vehicle without air bags but the only other thing on the list that is in my vehicle is the radio, and I'd be fine without it. And I'd be happy to own a car without an airbag also. Shux, I've driven lots more miles without any of those "conveniences" than with them.


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## tednugent

5DII said:


> While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


My car still has 3 pedals:
Gas
Brake
clutch


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## velodog

ibericb said:


> Oooooo ... red damsels.
> 
> But they don't look like Sidi's.


They don't look like Sidi's because they aren't. I had to have them custom made to get a sole large enough to bury my keo cleats into. Now walking into the coffee shop is hazard free. 

But the problem is, it's the middle of January and I'm having trouble finding insulated booties large enough to wear over them.


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## bvber

Agent319 said:


> I would rather wear a road shoe because of the footprint (contact to shoe) is larger and allows for more power I feel but they are awkward to walk in. I think the road shoe cleat is poorly designed and can be made better to allow for an occasional walking with out adding weight or made less aerodynamic.


Then why not redesign the MTB shoes to have larger footprint? :idea:


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## cale262

View attachment 303073


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## tlg

Agent319 said:


> What are bike shoe covers for?


So you can use road shoes in a manner they were NOT designed for.



> To cover up a design flaw is what they are for. Wouldn't need the covers if you weren't prone to slipping and falling with the road shoe cleat.


So then by your "logic" ice skates have a design flaw. Skis have a design flaw. Bowling shoes have a design flaw. Track spikes have a design flaw. Golf shoes have a design flaw.

You better get on the ball... there's bazillions of dollars to be made redesigning all those into mult-task footwear.


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## 32and3cross

tlg said:


> So you can use road shoes in a manner they were NOT designed for.
> 
> So then by your "logic" ice skates have a design flaw. Skis have a design flaw. Bowling shoes have a design flaw. Track spikes have a design flaw. Golf shoes have a design flaw.
> 
> You better get on the ball... there's bazillions of dollars to be made redesigning all those into mult-task footwear.


Your task - create the uber-shoe and dress show with slipper like comfort and maximum traction that has bindings that work for any sport.


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## Agent319

JCavilia said:


> This is stupid. I'm not sure whether he's kidding, or just being obtuse.
> 
> agent, look at the size of the cleat, length, width and depth. then look at the width of the shoe sole. then show us how you can recess that cleat into the sole without making it much larger, thus destroying that sleek design you like.
> 
> the solution for those who want a more walkable cycling shoe is a pedal design that uses a much smaller cleat, so it will fit into a recess in a sole of reasonable size.
> 
> This solution was devised about 25 years ago, with the SPD pedal and its knockoffs.
> 
> If you can devise a solution using a cleat like the Look, one that gets around the physics and geometry of the shoe and cleat, I'll give you the link to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, so you can file your application and make a killing.
> 
> BTW, the cleat covers do make walking easier. And they're no trouble at all to use.


We have had a dialog about the design of the road shoe. Did it waste our time? I think not. It has shown some think the design can be changed but most are happy with the design. Maybe the Look people are listening and are satisfied that the pedal, cleat and shoe is satisfactory. I accept that.


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## tlg

Agent319 said:


> We have had a dialog about the design of the road shoe. Did it waste our time? I think not.


 It absolutely wasted our time. But getting a good laugh sometimes requires one to waste time.



> It has shown *some *think the design can be changed but most are happy with the design.


Incorrect. It has shown only you think the design should be changed. Not one else has.


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## nhluhr

I guess this forum doesn't have the built-in sockpuppet-detection like some other vBulletin servers have. I think it's pretty obvious this guy is MyHui trolling under a different name.


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## JCavilia

Agent319 said:


> We have had a dialog about the design of the road shoe. Did it waste our time? I think not. It has shown some think the design can be changed but most are happy with the design. Maybe the Look people are listening and are satisfied that the pedal, cleat and shoe is satisfactory. I accept that.


Well, I haven't seen any suggestion for how to deal with the physical dilemma presented by trying to embed a large, thick cleat in a small, thin shoe sole. If it don't fit, you gotta quit.

But I say again, the solution to your "problem" exists, in the form of the small-cleat pedal designs. They have their compromises, but if you want to walk that much and refuse to use cleat covers, there you are. And as for adapting that to "the road shoe" (you use that phrase as if there were only one design) there are recessed-cleat shoes that look generally like road shoes. They unavoidably have a "bump" -- a thickened sole where the cleat goes -- but they might be the compromise you seek. Check out the Shimano RT82, and there are probably others. They're sometimes called "touring shoes".

BTW, this "problem" did not originate with clipless pedals. In the old days of clips and straps, racing shoes had rigid wooden soles, and a cleat with a slot that slipped over the back of the pedal cage. They were awkward to walk far in -- so the riders who used them did not walk far in them.


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## cxwrench

5DII said:


> While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


You've lost your logic somewhere in your car.


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## majbuzz

I can't figure out how to imbed a video, but here are a couple of guys who seem to get around okay on road shoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eArlm3ukbVs


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## tlg

5DII said:


> While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


Your logic is critically flawed. You're comparing accessories to design functions. 

Using the correct logic .... Would you guys buy a car (designed for road use) and expect to use it to go off roading?


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## CrankyCarbon

5DII said:


> While I am fine with current road shoe designs, to those who say they are designed around their functionality (ie for riding and not walking), using that logic, would you guys buy a car without airbags, radio, or power locks or power mirrors? I bet most of you would not, even though you don't need those to get from point A to point B


Actually, if you've ever seen a "race" specific car you would immediately notice it has NO airbags, radio, power *anything*, no insulation, the doors may not work.

And are we talking about "race" specific cycling shoes, hybrid, etc ??
race specific cycling shoes are specific for racing and need a hard non-flexible (some flex if you like it) sole. Of course, we use them for non-racing too. But we have the option NOT TO.

If you want a *non-racing* specific shoe then there are many out there.
The only problem is if you use a large cleat, like say a Look Delta cleat it takes up most of the space on shoes. A long time ago Look did resolve that with this Look MTB cleats but there were few takers.

So, I recommend you get a non *race* specific cycling shoe so you can have your options. My Mavic shoes, as do many others, have specific areas to make walking more comfortable at the toe and heel to minimize the large cleat in between.

Or a pedal - cleat system that works with shoes that you like.


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## froze

bvber said:


> Then why not redesign the MTB shoes to have larger footprint? :idea:


All this power stuff is just pure unscientific nonsense. There is very little difference between wearing road or MTB shoes, and at the very most wearing a mtb shoe may lose a whopping 1 to 2 watts over the road shoe.

The difference in even clipless pedals from flat pedals is almost nothing much to the unbelief of many. 

Here's more on this sort of weird myths that get told a million times over: Top 3 Clipless Pedal Myths | Mountain Bike Training Programs
What Is The Most Efficient Pedalling Style? Testing Flat Vs. Clipless Pedals - iceman2058 - Mountain Biking Videos - Vital MTB

If going from flat to clipless pedals is this small of a difference do you really think there's going to be a major change just from using road vs MTB shoes? Many MTB shoes are just as stiff as all but the most stiffest (and most expensive) road shoe, so if the stiffness ratio is the same then you're not losing any power.


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## CrankyCarbon

There's a wide variance from top end shoes with this carbon soles to lower end shoes. Some are designed with "rigidity" in mind, whilst others are designed to be walked on.

Each person has to find one that they are comfortable with.


Don't get me started on cleats either. I switched off of Campy ProFit Plus Cleats due to foot issues which were immediately recognizeable (by me ) as a cleat design when I was just contemplating a change. No scientific study, no documented computerized tests so I can get flamed and all even though a real foot is a bit different than a machine.


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## Agent319

majbuzz said:


> I can't figure out how to imbed a video, but here are a couple of guys who seem to get around okay on road shoes.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eArlm3ukbVs


Those guys couldn't plant a foot to get a good swing at each other. If one of those racers had a newly designed road shoe designed to walk in he would have had the advantage of a good foot plant to make a good swing. Hmmmm, another reason to redesign the road shoe.... to plant the foot for a good knock out punch to the other racer with the poorly designed road shoe.


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## CrankyCarbon

Agent319 said:


> Those guys couldn't plant a foot to get a good swing at each other. If one of those racers had a newly designed road shoe designed to walk in he would have had the advantage of a good foot plant to make a good swing. Hmmmm, another reason to redesign the road shoe.... to plant the foot for a good knock out punch to the other racer with the poorly designed road shoe.


They should have taken the shoes off and started whacking either other with the shoes. Then we would know Stiffer shoes DO make a difference !!

Of course they trained for bike racing, not boxing.


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## robt57

CrankyCarbon said:


> They should have taken the shoes off and started whacking either other with the shoes. Then we would know Stiffer shoes DO make a difference !!


LOL




> Of course they trained for bike racing, not boxing.


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## robt57

Fans count?


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## TiCoyote

32and3cross said:


> Your task - create the uber-shoe and dress show with slipper like comfort and maximum traction that has bindings that work for any sport.


Done!


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## ibericb

froze said:


> All this power stuff is just pure unscientific nonsense. There is very little difference between wearing road or MTB shoes, and at the very most wearing a mtb shoe may lose a whopping 1 to 2 watts over the road shoe.
> 
> The difference in even clipless pedals from flat pedals is almost nothing much to the unbelief of many.
> 
> Here's more on this sort of weird myths that get told a million times over: Top 3 Clipless Pedal Myths | Mountain Bike Training Programs
> What Is The Most Efficient Pedalling Style? Testing Flat Vs. Clipless Pedals - iceman2058 - Mountain Biking Videos - Vital MTB
> 
> If going from flat to clipless pedals is this small of a difference do you really think there's going to be a major change just from using road vs MTB shoes? Many MTB shoes are just as stiff as all but the most stiffest (and most expensive) road shoe, so if the stiffness ratio is the same then you're not losing any power.


There is a good measure of truth in what you say. There have been, however, a number of good research studies done on pedals, shoes, efficiency, and the merits of various systems. To get at those studies you need to dig into the biomechanics literature for what was published. A lot of the fundamental work that led to the basic shoe and cleat designs we use today dates from the 70's through the 90's. Probably the most significant work wasn't published. Those works were conducted as confidential research by the likes of Nike, to be exploited for a competitive advantage. Over the past 10-15 years the principal research focus on pedals/cleats/shoes for road-type systems seems to have shifted toward injury prevention. Today's shoe designs are a result of significant study and research, and then adoption by various pro's.

For the typical recreational rider I doubt there is a great deal of difference between an MTB system (e.g., SPD) and a road system (e.g, SPD-SL).


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## froze

ibericb said:


> There is a good measure of truth in what you say. There have been, however, a number of good research studies done on pedals, shoes, efficiency, and the merits of various systems. To get at those studies you need to dig into the biomechanics literature for what was published. A lot of the fundamental work that led to the basic shoe and cleat designs we use today dates from the 70's through the 90's. Probably the most significant work wasn't published. Those works were conducted as confidential research by the likes of Nike, to be exploited for a competitive advantage. Over the past 10-15 years the principal research focus on pedals/cleats/shoes for road-type systems seems to have shifted toward injury prevention. Today's shoe designs are a result of significant study and research, and then adoption by various pro's.
> 
> For the typical recreational rider I doubt there is a great deal of difference between an MTB system (e.g., SPD) and a road system (e.g, SPD-SL).


I'm obviously no expert in shoe and pedal design so I don't know about those studies you mentioned that were not published, but I do think, outside biomechanics to keep a particular person's foot from hurting, that the difference between a flat pedal, toeclips, and a clipless pedal is not as much as people like to believe as the videos pointed out; maybe if you're a top performing pro there is, but 99% of us on this forum are not thus all this nonsense about pedals is just that and I think the same thing (if not more so) is true with shoes. You're not going to get any more power from a road shoe vs a MTB shoe if both shoes stiffness is the same, plain and simple, there is no argument to be had on this.

And as far as comfort goes everyone's foot is different just like every persons butt is different thus each will like a different saddle. Foot comfort today has come a long ways since I was racing in the 70's and 80's, today I can get a foot pressure mat reading done and buy a Specialized body Geometry SL footbed (which I did just recently) to provide more comfort then no footbeds (by no footbeds I mean there were no footbed inserts even from the factory that built the shoe!) that we use to have. Anyone from a recreational rider, which is what most of us here, all the way up to the pro level can benefit from a custom footbed. A footbed by itself won't give a rider more power but it will make them more comfortable on longer rides.


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## stevesbike

I don't believe there has been much systematic study of the effects of cycling shoe stiffness on power or biomechanical efficiency. In fact, the only study I've seen concludes that stiff carbon soles increase forefoot peak pressure because the lack of flex reduces the distribution of pressure across the entire foot. Flex was originally thought to create hotspots, but that doesn't seem to be supported.

It's interesting how popular Sidi wires are in the pro peloton. I had a pair for a review and found them very comfortable, but they are definitely not a very stiff shoe compared to something like a Bont, which is as stiff as a board. I've always had a love/hate relationship with Bonts, which feel great sometimes but are painful other times - mainly I think because if they are not perfectly conforming, they are unforgiving.



ibericb said:


> There is a good measure of truth in what you say. There have been, however, a number of good research studies done on pedals, shoes, efficiency, and the merits of various systems. To get at those studies you need to dig into the biomechanics literature for what was published. A lot of the fundamental work that led to the basic shoe and cleat designs we use today dates from the 70's through the 90's. Probably the most significant work wasn't published. Those works were conducted as confidential research by the likes of Nike, to be exploited for a competitive advantage. Over the past 10-15 years the principal research focus on pedals/cleats/shoes for road-type systems seems to have shifted toward injury prevention. Today's shoe designs are a result of significant study and research, and then adoption by various pro's.
> 
> For the typical recreational rider I doubt there is a great deal of difference between an MTB system (e.g., SPD) and a road system (e.g, SPD-SL).


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## Carpbum

I use "KeepOns" on all of my road shoes. They afford decent traction but I still have to walk like a duck, but how far do you really need to walk to get snacks at the 7/11?







There was some discussion earlier in this thread about how to change (post ride) in a parking lot with some semblance of modesty? I put on a kilt, drop shorts, quick clean with a baby wipe, and I'm ready for some beers.


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