# 11% incline?



## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

is that a hard grade?

I tried it last night and the distance was probably approximately a quarter of a mile. I really wanted to quit really bad in the middle, but i would've felt stupid if i did, so i got to the top of the hill and i collapsed. my thighs were burning and they continued to burn for several minutes. I started in a sprint, but i had to slow to a crawl up the hill in 2nd to lowest gear.

so let me ask, should i feel insignificant for feeling like utter crap once i got up there?
haha.

so some problems i had...i'd like tips on this stuff if possible.
it was really hard keeping straight. i kept wobbling. Is this unusual or is it a general noobie problem?

And is it better to sit on your bike on the way up, or should i maybe shift up a little and stand all the way up? i tried standing up and it was pretty hard.

any more tips would be appreciated.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

mikejungle said:


> is that a hard grade?
> 
> I tried it last night and the distance was probably approximately a quarter of a mile. I really wanted to quit really bad in the middle, but i would've felt stupid if i did, so i got to the top of the hill and i collapsed. my thighs were burning and they continued to burn for several minutes. I started in a sprint, but i had to slow to a crawl up the hill in 2nd to lowest gear.
> 
> ...


Moderate to difficult I'd say. Anything over 10% is getting steep. Most of the main CO paved passes are not much over 6-8% but you do have to climb for 10-15 miles sometimes.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

so 11% for a quarter-1/2 of a mile is pretty weak, eh?

what about time? how fast would a decent enthusiast be able to finish a run like that in? or a one mile run?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Nobody's "insignificant"*

and you shouldn't feel that way. That's a pretty steep climb, but not too long, and it will get easier when you get stronger. Just keep working.

Is there some reason you only used your "2nd to lowest gear"? If it felt that hard you should have used the lowest you have (and if you're going to be riding terrain like this regularly, you might want some lower gears for a while).

As for sitting versus standing, use what works. Practice both positions, so you can switch back and forth to save your muscles.

Given your current shape, I'd say you should be in your lowest gear -- AND standing -- for that hill. But keep practicing.

Incidentally, how do you know it's 11%?


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## JayTee (Feb 3, 2004)

11% grade will indeed feel plenty steep. No shame in struggling on it. People exaggerate grades all the time, so next time you hear someone claiming to have ridden a 25% or 30% grade you can bet they are lying.

Paved roads in this country are rarely over 15% and virtually never over 20% except for short bursts (like in the middle of a switchback or something).


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

i live on a small mountain in la jolla, san diego.

i think when the road goes over a certain grade, they post signs for trucks because it's dangerous for big trucks. there was a picture of a truck going down a hill and below it, it read 11%

there's another big hill in the vicinity which i think reads 11% too, but parts of it are, i'm sure, much steeper than 11%
scary hill.

i wasn't on my lowest gear because i thought i was on the lowest gear, but not.

the problem i had with standing was that when i got up on it, i didn't feel enough resistance. therefore i felt like i was getting a workout trying not to go down too fast and keeping my pedals even and consistent. that's why i was asking if it was a better idea to go up to a higher gear so that my pedals are even. does that make sense? 

thanks


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

JayTee said:


> 11% grade will indeed feel plenty steep. No shame in struggling on it. People exaggerate grades all the time, so next time you hear someone claiming to have ridden a 25% or 30% grade you can bet they are lying.
> 
> Paved roads in this country are rarely over 15% and virtually never over 20% except for short bursts (like in the middle of a switchback or something).


Yup...there are a few climbs around Boulder that go into the 15-18% grade range and you can easily pull the front wheel off the ground if you're not careful. Most climbs are nowhere near that steep though.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

Don't worry too much about round pedal strokes when climbing near your limit. Sitting, standing, mashing- you'll do whatever works for you to keep going.
As MTBers figure out early on, balance is important on steep hills. Weight too far back and you will begin to lift the front wheel, and too far forward you may lose rear wheel traction. 
Also- pace yourself. Attacking a hill with a sprint only works with short climbs. Try to keep a steady speed and downshift to match the grade. Riding grades will improve with practice- including repeats (riding the same hills multiple times). You may even get to be one of those riders who come to love hills!


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

well, i want to try to ride to work at least once a week, but i feel i won't be able to do that until i can do this climb at least 4 consecutive times. it's a 9 mile ride to work and there are 2 more hills with similar inclines but longer in length.

I hate running up hills, but i love the challenge that riding up a hill poses. i don't know. weird. 
i attacked it in the beginning because i thought it'd be a short climb, but it seemed to last forever.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Not quitting is a good thing. Don't ever quit and walk up a climb.

As you ride more hills you'll learn how to pace your effort and what gears to use. Going too hard at the beginning is a common mistake.

It's normal to use a slower cadence when standing on climbs. You can shift up a gear or two before you stand. Also, when the grade steepens for short distances you can stand and use the same gear you were using while seated, rather than shifting down.


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## ACaparzo (Jan 29, 2007)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Yup...there are a few climbs around Boulder that go into the 15-18% grade range and you can easily pull the front wheel off the ground if you're not careful. Most climbs are nowhere near that steep though.


What is Mapleton (Sunshine Canyon) and Flagstaff? Do you know?


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

ACaparzo said:


> What is Mapleton (Sunshine Canyon) and Flagstaff? Do you know?


There was a website I tried to find a link to that stated the grade of many popular climbs around Boulder. I seem to recall that the "Heartbreak Hill" section is around 15%. Lickskillet (unpaved) off Lefthand is near 18% in sections and Magnolia is probably around the same in sections. The Amphitheater section of Flagstaff is probably around 12% or a bit more.

edit...found the link...I was a bit off:

http://www.ucar.edu/eac/bike/steep.html


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## ACaparzo (Jan 29, 2007)

Cool, thanks for the infor. I've done Mapleton and that was a burn. Three months ago I had to stop like 10 times going up it and about a month ago I managed to do it with no breaks. Pretty good improvement I think, especially since I just got diagnosed with Exercise Induced Asthma in addition to a lot of riding to make me strong enough to accomplish that feat. I am thinking about attempting Flagstaff this week and see how I do. I should be able to afford a new bike too in a couple months which will help me climb a bit better, right now I am on a Marin Fairfax ("hybrid")which barely climbs compared to the roadbikes I have tried.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

It takes a lot of work to do a quarter mile of 11%. So don't feel inferior if the old legs and lungs start to feel a mite abused.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Good job...*

for not quitting!!! Yeah, do whatever it takes to make it to the top...lean forward, lean back, stand up, shift down,shift up, whatever...most importantly pedal circles (even if they are just at an RPM to JUST keep you moving..as long as you are moving). I am a little surprised no one else has brought up the 'thighs burning'....if ONLY your thighs are burning, you are wasting a HUGE resource....your GLUTES and hamstrings....remember, when pedaling circles, your thighs are just connecting rods....your glutes and hams are the pistons with the power!!! It sounds like you may only be pedaling on your downstroke. I know, I did it for years and years mountain bike riding. Then I decided to really learn how to pedal circles, and not that I do it perfectly all the time, but now I know that if my thighs start to burn I need to adjust my pedaling and I know I am far from done because I improve my pedal stroke to more focus on glutes and hamstrings...try this next time you are out riding...taking one foot out of the pedal and only pedal with the one foot clipped in...make sure you are pedaling smooth circles and not just stabbing down at the pedal. You will feel your glutes and hamstring get activated...the stronger they get, your ability to climb will go way up...someone PLEASE correct me if I am waaaaay off....

Re-reading your post, you said you tried to stand and it was really hard...that tells me you are really only pedaling with your thighs because when I stand, I use it as a break for my glutes and hams and hammer with my thighs..sounds like your thighs were 'dead' before you ever stood up...


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Bocephus Jones II said:


> There was a website I tried to find a link to that stated the grade of many popular climbs around Boulder. I seem to recall that the "Heartbreak Hill" section is around 15%. Lickskillet (unpaved) off Lefthand is near 18% in sections and Magnolia is probably around the same in sections. The Amphitheater section of Flagstaff is probably around 12% or a bit more.
> 
> edit...found the link...I was a bit off:
> 
> http://www.ucar.edu/eac/bike/steep.html


That's right. Most hills aren't as steep as you hope. Even the "Wall" near superior is only 12% at it's worst. 

I've done the math with topo maps and the first part of Magnolia is really the only paved road that even approaches 20%. It's far and away the steepest road I've ever seen. I think you need to be on a mountain bike or in Europe to find anything steeper for any appreciable distance. The first three miles of that road make you want to die, no matter how good you feel. 

By the way, however, riding up Lickskillet was the hardest thing ever. It's dirt so you can't stand up and have to ride in in the spring when the dirt's packed down from the snow (when you're not totally fit) and in a certain position to maintain traction. It's awesome. I imagine the Koppenburg is somewhat analogous.


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## mikejungle (Apr 30, 2007)

I measured the distance with my car's odometer and it was a little over 0.3 miles. eh.

anyway...i have a dumb mongoose mountain bike...how can i pedal a circle with that? there are no straps, and i definitely don't have clips.

one thing i've noticed is that i really don't know how to use my butt. it never seems to get a workout no matter what exercise i do. sprinting, long distance running, various other sports...So how do i get the most out of my butt?

thanks a lot for the 'pedaling in circles' tip though.
i'll keep it in mind for when i get a real bike. tell me if there's a way i can apply what you told me to a strapless pedal bike.

thanks.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*Uhhhh....*



mikejungle said:


> I measured the distance with my car's odometer and it was a little over 0.3 miles. eh.
> 
> anyway...i have a dumb mongoose mountain bike...how can i pedal a circle with that? there are no straps, and i definitely don't have clips.
> 
> ...


Mongoose Mountain Bike, eh?....I think everyone has been replying under the assumption you were riding a road bike (considering the forum...hehehe). You can pedal circles with platforms.....as you get almost to the bottom of the pedal stroke, think about 'wiping mud off the bottom of your shoe' - slightly point toe done and pull back with hamstrings - at the same time, you are using your glute and thigh on other side to push the opposite pedal down........if you do a google search, you can find out a better description. Regarding using your glutes, I feel for you since I road mountain bikes for years basically using only my thighs...in the beginning, you really have to focus on actually flexing your 'cheak' (god I hope no one I know reads this....hehhe)...I practiced a lot on a stationary bike to get it down....once you do, you will be amazed at how much stronger you can go...the Glutes are one of the biggest muscles in the body...


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## physasst (Oct 1, 2005)

*Yep*



Pablo said:


> That's right. Most hills aren't as steep as you hope. Even the "Wall" near superior is only 12% at it's worst.
> 
> I've done the math with topo maps and the first part of Magnolia is really the only paved road that even approaches 20%. It's far and away the steepest road I've ever seen. I think you need to be on a mountain bike or in Europe to find anything steeper for any appreciable distance. The first three miles of that road make you want to die, no matter how good you feel.
> 
> By the way, however, riding up Lickskillet was the hardest thing ever. It's dirt so you can't stand up and have to ride in in the spring when the dirt's packed down from the snow (when you're not totally fit) and in a certain position to maintain traction. It's awesome. I imagine the Koppenburg is somewhat analogous.



the steepest climb I'm aware of in the US is brasstown which approaches by reports 25% in some areas. We have one climb in our area here that is about 18.6% when I topo'ed it. It's only about a third of a mile long but it is just brutal. We have several short hills around here that approach 10-12%, 11% is not bad, especially for a new cyclist. As Mapei said, that is a lot of energy to expend to climb that. Most roads only have gradients around 5-9%.


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## 99trek5200 (Jan 26, 2007)

11% is a good size grade. While in Hawaii my wife and I encoutered a paved road marked as 25% grade with the restriction "4 wheel drive vehicles only". We walked down then back up the grade. It was not an easy walk! While local and side roads can have fairly steep grades, the maximum allowed for interstate highways is 6%.


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## John Nelson (Mar 10, 2006)

I don't find percent grades very meaningful because there is no standard for measuring them. Suppose I told you that this one hill was an 11% grade. Does that mean that it contains one section that is 11%? Or does that mean that it averages 11% measured from the very bottom to the very top? A hill that averages 11% over five miles is very tough. A hill that has one ten-foot section that is 11% is nothing.

On the steepest climbs, alternate standing and sitting. The ratio of the two is up to you and the hill. When standing you should be in a higher gear than when sitting (i.e., shift back and forth as you stand and sit). Sometime you might shift one gear, sometimes two, sometimes three. Experiment. The 30th time you go up the hill, it'll be easier than the first. Just keep climbing it.


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## simonton (Mar 11, 2007)

I think Hurricane Mountain road in NH is between 15-20%


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Fargo Street in Los Angeles, the site of the famous Wheelmen Fargo Street Hillclimb, is officially 32%, and officially the steepest street in California. Go to the Southern California Forum and you'll find several threads on the old beastie.


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## sol 518 (Sep 2, 2005)

Lincoln gap in VT is 20% sustained for about 1.5 miles with a section of 24%. That's the steepest I've ever ridden and it took conscious effort to keep the front tire on the road.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Does anyone have an inclinometer? I've seen them advertised. They look like a little bubble level that fits on the bars. They're marked off in degrees of inclines. Most of them sell for around $25-30. Just wondering if anybody has one, and if so, what do you think about it.


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## mandovoodoo (Aug 27, 2005)

I have inclinometers on my surveying compasses. Country roads, old ones, are the worst around here. We have several very short stretches (75 to 150 ft) well over 25%. Unfortunately, I live at the bottom of one and have to hit it hard and fast without being warmed up. The main reason I ride a triple! If any of these were more than very short I suspect I'd be unable to keep going. 

The general tendency to classify a climb as X% seems pretty annoying to me. Big difference whether something is a sustained 8% or a 6% with switchbacks of 18% thrown in. Those short really steep parts always break up my effort and make things more difficult.

We notice the difference between modern roads and old ones around here. The country lanes have sustained out of the saddle hills that take our lowest gears. Often. Then nice must-brake descents. Get on the modern road shoulders and we're eating up the miles in nice cruising gears. 

Inclinometer if you really want to know. 20% feels very steep on foot - I don't know that I could walk safely in cycling shoes on that type of road!


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

From reading these forums, I've heard pluses and minuses about the bubble level inclinometers. One supposed problem is that they don't work when you're moving, so fugettaboudit, in my opinion. My old Specialized Speed Zone Pro (old enough to be a Festina model, BTW) does inclination by measuring barometric change over distance. It's not super accurate, as it tends to read a little higher when I'm going up a slope when I'm going down that slope, but I tend to believe what it says.


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## Mr. Jones (Jul 4, 2006)

JayTee said:


> 11% grade will indeed feel plenty steep. No shame in struggling on it. People exaggerate grades all the time, so next time you hear someone claiming to have ridden a 25% or 30% grade you can bet they are lying.


Like the idiots that complain "my speed fell below twenty mph on a twenty percent grade today. Help!" These people are full of it and want people to be amazed at their supposed skillz. I've done stuff that the club website says is fifteen percent. I haven't been absolutely dead afterward, but that's probably because I'm too exhausted to think about anything other than staying on the road.


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## mandovoodoo (Aug 27, 2005)

Proper inclinometers on surveying compasses (e.g., Bruntons) are very good. But do take stopping and measuring the road surface. I have to be very impressed to remember the compass and stop on a killer hill!


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## Zwane (Jun 30, 2006)

One of the main reasons i got the Garmin edge 305 was for the % grade display, it reassures me when i find myself struggling a bit more on hills when i see that the grade has increased =) Although it is a bit expensive if all you want is inclinometer functionality.


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## MCF (Oct 12, 2006)

*How do you like the 305?*



Zwane said:


> One of the main reasons i got the Garmin edge 305 was for the % grade display, it reassures me when i find myself struggling a bit more on hills when i see that the grade has increased =) Although it is a bit expensive if all you want is inclinometer functionality.


Do you mount it on your stem? Does the HRM work pretty well? I have a 60Csx for driving around and sometimes put it in my fanny pack, but it does not have the % grade or HRM (but does allow for maps to be loaded on it). Thanks.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

Mr. Versatile said:


> Does anyone have an inclinometer? I've seen them advertised. They look like a little bubble level that fits on the bars. They're marked off in degrees of inclines. Most of them sell for around $25-30. Just wondering if anybody has one, and if so, what do you think about it.


I have the SkyMountie bubble-type inclinometer, and I find that it is of limited usefullness. As you say, it uses a bubble type angle finder, but it is incremented in percent slope, not degrees. Here are the issues I have with it:

1. It has two scales, one for positive inclines (climbs) that indexes off the front of the bubble, and one for negative inclines (descents) that indexes off the back of the bubble. If the bubble were exactly as long as the distance between the scales, you could set it once for both positive and negative inclines - but unfortunately, the bubble is too short, so it can only be adjusted to read one direction correctly.

2. Due to the shapes of the bubble and the graduated tube that it moves in, changes in sight angle for reading the unit results in parallax error. In other words, if you calibrate the unit when looking straight down at it, then if you look at it from a foot or two behind the handlebars, the apparant reading would change. You might read a different number from different positions (hands in drops, hands on bar tops, etc.).

3. With the standard mounting system (handlebar clamp) the unit is easily knocked out of level (i.e. out of calibration). Although it is easy to adjust back into calibration, it requires stopping, finding a reasonably horizontal surface, and then adjusting the angle of the unit so that measures the correct angle. (Calibration can be checked by turning the bike around 180 degrees, and making sure that it reads the same angle).

4. As others mentioned, it is affected by accelerations/decelerations - on really steep slopes, we tend to surge with each pedal stroke, which throws off the readings.

After a short time, I took it off my bike, as it generally didn't produce very meaningful readings.


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

Use the elevation tool on Google Earth and do some simple math to determine percent grade.


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## Jack Hammer (Mar 31, 2007)

For a few dollars you could make something. Most boating stores have basic inclinometers for ~$5. They are flat, peel and stick, with what looks like a "bb" in fluid. They are designed to help level a boat. I used to use them for 4x4ing. Just stick one on the side of something or when you run out of steam and fall over, pull it out of your pocket and see what it says.

I used a cheap version similar to the 25 degree one here


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## Zwane (Jun 30, 2006)

MCF said:


> Do you mount it on your stem? Does the HRM work pretty well? I have a 60Csx for driving around and sometimes put it in my fanny pack, but it does not have the % grade or HRM (but does allow for maps to be loaded on it). Thanks.


Yes it's mounted on the stem, I love how it does 'everything'. The HRM works fairly well although the first few minutes almost always have strange 230bpm spikes. There is also a neat trick whereupon if you disable the auto-pause/resume you can monitor your heart rate recovery during intervals.


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