# Second post



## thpeyton (Jun 25, 2006)

Oh yeah. I feel new.
What is SRAM? Lets get a definition going here.


----------



## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

thpeyton said:


> What is SRAM? Lets get a definition going here.


 
AGM-69 Short Range Attack Missile [SRAM]










Or the manufacturer of FORCE, a currently overpriced road groupset:cryin:


----------



## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

Retro Grouch said:


> AGM-69 Short Range Attack Missile [SRAM]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+

Overpriced?? What the F are you talking about, we sell it much cheaper than DA, and for my $ it's a better group though as with Campy they all have their advantages/disadvantages.


----------



## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*Prices*



critchie said:


> +
> 
> Overpriced?? What the F are you talking about, we sell it much cheaper than DA, and for my $ it's a better group though as with Campy they all have their advantages/disadvantages.


$539.00 retail for a pair of FORCE levers isn't cheap considering I paid $305.00 for a pair of new DA levers off eBay. As for a better group, only time will tell. It may flourish or go the way of MAVIC ZAP, SACHS New Sucsess (SRAM bought SACHS), Suntour road offerings.


----------



## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

Retro Grouch said:


> $539.00 retail for a pair of FORCE levers isn't cheap considering I paid $305.00 for a pair of new DA levers off eBay. As for a better group, only time will tell. It may flourish or go the way of MAVIC ZAP, SACHS New Sucsess (SRAM bought SACHS), Suntour road offerings.


 
We will sell you a set of levers for way less than $539, and the entire group at retail would run you about $1225 -- much the same as DA. The levers are also the biggest part of the puzzle and are bound to be the most expensive. The Rival shifters are the same internals as the Force and can be had for $300 -- carbon bits cost money.

As for its future, it very unlikely to go the way of the others you mention -- it already has the support of some major players in the industry (Specialized, Cannondale, Orbea - just in the US) and you will more levels of product from them in the future. I addition, they (SRAM) are a major player (mtb stuff, RockShox, Avid, Truvativ, etc). Count on them being here for a long time.


----------



## rkdvsm (Jul 15, 2006)

critchie said:


> We will sell you a set of levers for way less than $539, and the entire group at retail would run you about $1225 -- much the same as DA. The levers are also the biggest part of the puzzle and are bound to be the most expensive. The Rival shifters are the same internals as the Force and can be had for $300 -- carbon bits cost money.
> 
> As for its future, it very unlikely to go the way of the others you mention -- it already has the support of some major players in the industry (Specialized, Cannondale, Orbea - just in the US) and you will more levels of product from them in the future. I addition, they (SRAM) are a major player (mtb stuff, RockShox, Avid, Truvativ, etc). Count on them being here for a long time.


Hey critchie

How much do you sell Record and Chorus groupsets?


----------



## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*a*



rkdvsm said:


> Hey critchie
> 
> How much do you sell Record and Chorus groupsets?


Like any manufacturer the parts individually cost more than the entire group than entire group put together. You should buy several components at once, you would need them to work together


----------



## stevecaz (Feb 25, 2005)

critchie said:


> The levers are also the biggest part of the puzzle and are bound to be the most expensive. The Rival shifters are the same internals as the Force and can be had for $300 -- carbon bits cost money.


Just in defense of the overpriced argument - carbon Campy Record shifters made in Italy can be had for under $330 easily in the retail world. Furthermore, the Force levers supposedly have simpler internals so machining is probably less cost too. Therefore there is no way that the Force levers made in a country with cheaper labor costs and cheaper shipping costs should cost $539, which is about the cheapest of reliable retailers who also sell Record for under $330. I had wanted Force for my new build, but boycotted SRAM for what is clearly price gouging. Also, the added carbon and magnesium form Rival to Force does not cost anywhere near $200 extra at the retail level. 

There is the simple point that SRAM needed to create the impression that Force is better than everything else (and I'm not saying it might not be). We all know in the bicycle world that higher cost usually means better (take better however you'd like - lighter, stonger, faster, smoother,etc.). It also creates an elitest perception and status. SRAM would of course want to give instant elite status to Force to manipulate consumer impressions. Having an elitist cost was a great marketing strategy to elevate the group above Dura-Ace, their main competition concern. But lots of us recognized this and shunned their phoney price point for the BS tactic it is.


----------



## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

stevecaz said:


> Just in defense of the overpriced argument - carbon Campy Record shifters made in Italy can be had for under $330 easily in the retail world. Furthermore, the Force levers supposedly have simpler internals so machining is probably less cost too. Therefore there is no way that the Force levers made in a country with cheaper labor costs and cheaper shipping costs should cost $539, which is about the cheapest of reliable retailers who also sell Record for under $330. I had wanted Force for my new build, but boycotted SRAM for what is clearly price gouging. Also, the added carbon and magnesium form Rival to Force does not cost anywhere near $200 extra at the retail level.
> 
> There is the simple point that SRAM needed to create the impression that Force is better than everything else (and I'm not saying it might not be). We all know in the bicycle world that higher cost usually means better (take better however you'd like - lighter, stonger, faster, smoother,etc.). It also creates an elitest perception and status. SRAM would of course want to give instant elite status to Force to manipulate consumer impressions. Having an elitist cost was a great marketing strategy to elevate the group above Dura-Ace, their main competition concern. But lots of us recognized this and shunned their phoney price point for the BS tactic it is.


I could tell you that you missed a real important factor in pricing -- ROI, or how much must the price be to recoup their investment. However, the bottom line is really what you may have missed if you and others focused solely on the price of the shifters. That is, how much is it for a complete group? I can tell you that the complete group is cheaper for me to buy than DA or Record -- that is dealer price, not retail. If you wanted to build a Force bike, it should have been cheaper than the other two and well lighter in the case or DA.

Example of pricing: 2007 Orbea Orca MSRP $5370 with DA, $5000 with Force, all other parts are the same. Where is your overpriced issue?

I will tell you that SRAM is aggressively pricing these products in order to take a bite out of Shimano -- Campy is going to feel the pinch a lot less.


----------



## stevecaz (Feb 25, 2005)

critchie said:


> I could tell you that you missed a real important factor in pricing -- ROI, or how much must the price be to recoup their investment. However, the bottom line is really what you may have missed if you and others focused solely on the price of the shifters. That is, how much is it for a complete group? I can tell you that the complete group is cheaper for me to buy than DA or Record -- that is dealer price, not retail. If you wanted to build a Force bike, it should have been cheaper than the other two and well lighter in the case or DA.
> Example of pricing: 2007 Orbea Orca MSRP $5370 with DA, $5000 with Force, all other parts are the same. Where is your overpriced issue?
> I will tell you that SRAM is aggressively pricing these products in order to take a bite out of Shimano -- Campy is going to feel the pinch a lot less.


I haven't dismissed the complete group at all. But look at the high end market and how many of us work it. We pick and chose our components and hate buying full bikes. SRAM should have been targeting both OEM new bikes AND getting riders to "make the leap" by "upgrading" parts on our currents rides. Because SRAM should know many of us have frames and parts that are better and not worth replacing. In my case, I had great FSA carbon cranks and Mavic brakes and others are in the same situation. That leaves myself and lots of others wanting only the shifting parts. 
It is also well know that the OEM supply price is significantly lower than component pricing, further displaying the overpriced nature of the parts. 

Ok, but in the end they can charge whatever they feel like. We know the profit margin on the shifters alone is surely much higher than any other part they've ever sold. And thats perfectly fine if they want to do it. Many of us will just take our wallets elsewhere. That is what makes America great. 

Oddly the addition of SRAM should have stabilized and maybe even lowered prices with the greater competition, but it might actually have the reverse affect. As I stated in my other post, it is no secret why they priced like they did. The elitist effect in marketing is a powerful tool to sell, but it can backfire.


----------



## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

stevecaz said:


> I haven't dismissed the complete group at all. But look at the high end market and how many of us work it. We pick and chose our components and hate buying full bikes. _*Some do this but many don't. Frankly all the picking and choosing means you pay more -- an exception may be cranks, but even then to get an improvement over the standard part means you must pay more, often much more. Jumping ahead to your FSA cranks, unless you have the K-force model you do not have a better crank then a stock DA crank for instance. Most carbon cranks are neither lighter or stiffer than the aluminum parts they replace. If you are willing to pay a hefty sum more, there are light, stiff carbon cranks available. The ubiquitous FSA SL-K for instance is neither light nor stiff.*_
> ​SRAM should have been targeting both OEM new bikes AND getting riders to "make the leap" by "upgrading" parts on our currents rides. Because SRAM should know many of us have frames and parts that are better and not worth replacing. In my case, I had great FSA carbon cranks and Mavic brakes and others are in the same situation. That leaves myself and lots of others wanting only the shifting parts. *You could certainly have purchased the shifting parts minus the crank and brakes and paid an amount very close to the other two top-shelf parts.*
> ​It is also well know that the OEM supply price is significantly lower than component pricing, further displaying the overpriced nature of the parts. _*That does not indicate overpricing! If someone is going to buy 5000 groups from me, I am certainly going to sell that group for less than I am to the guy who buys 1, or part of one.*_
> ​Ok, but in the end they can charge whatever they feel like. We know the profit margin on the shifters alone is surely much higher than any other part they've ever sold. _*I'd would guess that the margin (counting only raw materials & labor costs) on the shifters is higher than anything else, but it also cost more to develop than anything else they have ever done. Have you ever tried engineering the same thing someone else makes, but have to avoid infringing any patents, and at the end of the day it must be a better product -- not easy, ask all the folks trying to build new suspensions for mountain bikes.*_
> ...


_*???whatever you say on that???*_
​


----------



## roadboy (Apr 1, 2003)

The force levers may be exspensive, but look at other parts. A Force rear der wholesales for about $90, while record carbon rear der wholesales for about $200. Thats a big difference. Also a rival 10sp cassette wholesale is about $50, while the all steel chrous cassette wholesales for about $95. If you look past the levers the force group is not that exspensive compared to dura ace or record 10. By the way Force 10 levers wholesale for $320, while record 10 go for $240, the only spot where record is cheaper. Then the cranks Record Ultra torque crank, wholesale is about $430, while the Force carbon GXP crank is about $300. I bit the bullet and dropped big money for Force shifters, but in the end I spent less on the group then if I were to buy Record 10. I have been on Dura ace for the last 6 years and wanted to try something new, and with Force I can keep my current wheels. So Im going to give it a try. 
Also these were wholesale prices that shops pay, not prices that people sell for on ebay. ebay makes a hard comparison because someone is always dumping stuff for cheap there and deals are always present, my example would apply if you were to go into a shop and purchase these products.


----------



## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

*shifters prices*



Retro Grouch said:


> $539.00 retail for a pair of FORCE levers isn't cheap considering I paid $305.00 for a pair of new DA levers off eBay. As for a better group, only time will tell. It may flourish or go the way of MAVIC ZAP, SACHS New Sucsess (SRAM bought SACHS), Suntour road offerings.


I think other than the shifters, most other SRAM Force components are cheaper than the others. With a little bit of patience searching online, a pair of new Force shifters can be had for a little over 3 bills. However, I have bought two sets of new 07 Record shifters for ways less than 3 bills. I have just purchased a whole groupset of SRAM Force for one of my bikes but unfortunately, the biking season is almost over so I am not going to much time left this year to ride with this new groupset to get a good impression out of it. Thanks!


----------



## obiron (Sep 28, 2005)

Something to keep in mind when speaking of pricing parts in a group...crash replacement.

What is the most likely part to ruin in a crash? The shift levers.
The one nice thing about Campy is that you could buy individual parts for the shifter levers. Shimano you have to buy the whole shifter, maybe even a set.

Let's truly hope that SRAM follows in the footsteps of Campy and makes individual shifter parts available. I simply don't have the cash to replace a $500+ pair of shifters.

BTW and this important: TRIM ON THE FRONT DERAILLEUR PLEASE!
I need it, want it, make it retro, make it happen!


----------



## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

obiron said:


> Something to keep in mind when speaking of pricing parts in a group...crash replacement.
> *A valid point!*​What is the most likely part to ruin in a crash? The shift levers.
> The one nice thing about Campy is that you could buy individual parts for the shifter levers. Shimano you have to buy the whole shifter, maybe even a set.
> 
> ...


*The front derailleur has a trim setting when in the small ring, and I have found trim unnecessary in the big ring.*​


----------



## obiron (Sep 28, 2005)

Interesting, I have found exactly the opposite. I don't really need trim in the small ring as long as the top half of the cassette is reachable without chain rub. I *have *found a need for trim on the big ring. If I have it set to hit my second to top cog without rub it will rub when in the bottom cog.


----------



## critchie (Apr 27, 2004)

I can only say that your setup might not be correct. The person who setup my bike, and any others we sell, is someone with 20+ years experience as a full-time bike mechanic. Whatever he is doing with the SRAM stuff, it works just as advertised by SRAM. While I cannot speak to the details of setup (that is not my expertise), I did just speak to a tech at SRAM this morning about any FD issues they might be having and his take on trim was the same as I indicated. FYI, I was speaking to the tech as the result of a private email (from someone on this site) I received, not about any specific issues we were having.


----------



## obiron (Sep 28, 2005)

I am not done fussing with it yet. I ordered a Campy FD clamp to replace the Shimano clamp I initially purchased. The Shimano has a lip at the top and does not allow access to both screw holes on the Braze on FD. The Campy clamp does not have the lip and this may allow for more adjustability.
I am also wondering if the spacing on DA cranks may be slightly different. I had to use my DA cranks since there seems to be a shortage of SRAM 172.5 Force cranks. Hopefully mine will be in soon.

Ultimately I would still like a little trim, it's a Campy thing. Which means Campy users have an excuse not to Make the Leap.
From a purely marketing stand point, why engineer an automatic limitation?
Just put another click in the mechanism, needed or not, it will open up the market.

It just makes sense...Dollars and Cents.


----------

