# Contador is playing with Fire.



## fullthrottle (Oct 26, 2003)

Contador is messing with Fire and is going to get schooled by Armstrong. It takes a great Team to win the Tour period. He went against Bruyneel and wanted to Show Off and get back the time he lost from being asleep the other day and getting caught in the pack. Armstrong should take him to school and show him that in every way he is the Captain. Contador will never have the mind that Lance has and made a huge mistake today in Stage 7...


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## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

Dewd you waited 6 years and how many tours to post.


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

I think you're digging a little deeper than necessary. If JB has a man in yellow in Paris, everything went _exactly_ according to The Plan.


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## btinder (Aug 25, 2007)

jupiterrn said:


> Dewd you waited 6 years and how many tours to post.


lmao 

too funny


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## saird (Aug 19, 2008)

LWP said:


> I think you're digging a little deeper than necessary. If JB has a man in yellow in Paris, everything went _exactly_ according to The Plan.


Yeah things would have taken an odd turn somewhere along the road if JB ended up with a woman in yellow.


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## LWP (Jun 6, 2006)

saird said:


> Yeah things would have taken an odd turn somewhere along the road if JB ended up with a woman in yellow.


It suppose it could happen. JB and one of those podium girls for the MJ could end up drunk in the same bar one night. What happens in Paris...


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## fullthrottle (Oct 26, 2003)

Oh, your one of those guys that have nothing better to do than live online.
Go ride or let me guess you don't ride.


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## Comer (Jan 13, 2009)

way to go fullthrottle, lmao.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jupiterrn said:


> Dewd you waited 6 years and how many tours to post.


waiting for the important stuff obviously :crazy:


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## T-shirt (Aug 15, 2004)

LWP said:


> I think you're digging a little deeper than necessary. If JB has a man in yellow in Paris, everything went _exactly_ according to The Plan.


I agree. *Bruyneel* has an excellent chance of winning another tour.


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## BuenosAires (Apr 3, 2004)

saird said:


> Yeah things would have taken an odd turn somewhere along the road if JB ended up with a woman in yellow.


Lance is only one ball away...........


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## bornin53 (Sep 3, 2005)

*Contador Had Every Right to Attack*

In order to find fault with Contador's attack, one has to be looking at the situation through the "I want Lance to win" prism. Bruyneel said Contador had earned the team leadership role. Its hard to argue that the person who won the last 3 GTs he entered has not earned the right to be the leader. When LA joined the team, AC almost quit but Hog assured him he'd be the leader if he was the strongest rider, which by the way, he is.

AC gained about 20 seconds by attacking at the end of Stage 7. How would Astana be in better position if AC was 20 seconds further back? They wouldn't be, but the revered Armstrong would be in position to take the yellow jersey, which is what the Lance fans want to see. 

If having an undecided team leadership is a good thing, why is it so seldom done? Can anyone site a situation where this strategy worked to a team's advantage in the Tour?


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

no, it is not good. and yes, I want Lance to win.

It was a nice attack, but showed what we all thought anyway, that no aggressive racer will be held back. Why should he, that is the purist form of joy that I have ever experienced in racing, attacking off the front with good legs. so it was what he had to do.

Many more fireworks to come.
Brian


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## rydog9991 (Jul 15, 2008)

jupiterrn said:


> Dewd you waited 6 years and how many tours to post.



hahahahahahaha


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## rydog9991 (Jul 15, 2008)

Contador is stronger, but he could have let Lance have the yellow for one day at least.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Contador reminds me of Basso before he got caught for some reason. 

AC makes it look effortless, that's what's so scary about him. 

IMO Lance should do the work necessary to make sure AC wins.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

To paraphrase Eddy Merckx and Paul Sherwen, Contador banged the proverbial fist on the proverbial table. A leader of Astana was going to have to emerge, eventually. Cadel lit the blue touch paper. Contador took the initiative. 

Need a few more cliches?
"This town ain't big enough for the both of us."
"It looks like noo-clear confrontation toe-to-toe with the Russkies."
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
"We jerked our guns, and he fell with a thud, and I rode away on the Tennessee Stud."
And courtesy of Il sogno, "No gifts!"


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

rydog9991 said:


> Contador is stronger, but he could have let Lance have the yellow for one day at least.


Nah... no gifts remember?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

il sogno said:


> Nah... no gifts remember?



What about birthdays and holidays?


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

rydog9991 said:


> Contador is stronger, but he could have let Lance have the yellow for one day at least.


I agree - Help The Aged.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

So the guy that was still out of breath when interviewed 10 minutes after the finish is going to school the guy who wasn't winded 30 seconds after the finish? Umm.... No.

LA's excuses about wind and shallow grade worked even more against the 130 lb Contador so LA is lucky there are only 3 mountain finishes the whole race.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

fullthrottle said:


> Oh, your one of those guys that have nothing better to do than live online.
> Go ride or let me guess you don't ride.


Welcome to the domain of arrogant a$$holes. Since you are new, you should be telling these losers who use their employers time to post here just how "special" they are! A couple of them have actually been on a bike in the past year or so.


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## RSPDiver (Jun 3, 2006)

bornin53 said:


> Bruyneel said Contador had earned the team leadership role. Its hard to argue that the person who won the last 3 GTs he entered has not earned the right to be the leader.


Not to be a "richard" but perhaps there is some contention in if he won the last three GTs, or "wound up winning" the last three GTs. Chicken had him for the Tour, but got pulled. Levi was nipping at his heels.

In some ways, I would almost say the sportsmanlike thing to do, since he's so young and so dominant, is to let Lance have his last, or better yet let Levi have his first (and only?) TdF overall victory, and earn some lasting cred. But there are some huge egos in the GC ranks, and perhaps next year's paycheck is more important to them than a going out as a career good guy (Hincapie, Popo, etc.)


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

There are plenty more moutain top finishes that aren't in the first week of the race. Lets see how these guys climb after two weeks in the saddle. The strongest guy at about 18 days will be the one who wins. Lance is sort of a Tim Tebow type athelete. His will to win can make up for short comings in physical prowess at times. Like I said though, whoever can still climb and TT next weekend will be the team leader. As stated above, whichever wins it will be acording to the "plan" JB had.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

Lance could easily win this Tour, no doubt. So could Contador. For that matter, on this team, if they were all working for Klöden or Leipheimer, either of those could win!

But if you took any one of these from that team and dumped him onto some run-of-the-mill squad like Silence-Lotto, who would fare best? Not Levi. Not Andreas. And not Lance, either. He has not won on an average team in this decade, and he is not the same physical phenomenon he was before the age of 35.

The best individual on this team is Alberto Contador. Plenty good enough in the ITT to hang with the studs, and better than any serious GC contender in the mountains. (Sorry, Carlos; I love your attitude, but you can't climb every day, and you can't TT.)

Everyone on that team knows that, and Friday's attack serves LA and JB right for treating Contador like he is something stuck on the bottom of their shoe.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

... yep, playing with fire indeed -- Armstrong's chances of winning this Tour just went up in smoke!


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

Italophile said:


> Everyone on that team knows that, and Friday's attack serves LA and JB right for treating Contador like he is something stuck on the bottom of their shoe.


Nicely put. This is exactly what happened. Of course, JB wins no matter what, but it is laughable to hear people imply that Alberto has been a bad boy by not following 'the plan'. :cryin:


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

piano said:


> Nicely put. This is exactly what happened. Of course, JB wins no matter what, but it is laughable to hear people imply that Alberto has been a bad boy by not following 'the plan'. :cryin:


IMO Contador would look really good in Caisse d'Epargne colors.


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

piano said:


> Nicely put. This is exactly what happened. Of course, JB wins no matter what, but it is laughable to hear people imply that Alberto has been a bad boy by not following 'the plan'. :cryin:



That's the "Lance-centric" view held by most americans. Personally, I'd like to see Contador or Kloden win the tour. The view that Lance deserves it because he's Lance is pretty much a load of crap.


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## KenB (Jul 28, 2004)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> What about birthdays and holidays?



I <3 U.


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

I think it was completely "bunk" what Contador did and I am not Lance fan (I want Andy Schleck). Everywhere I read that cycling is a "team" sport, and what is the saying, "there is no I in TEAM". Those meesely 20 seconds don't mean anything. That Astana team is so strong that 20 seconds can be gained later--team unity is more important that 20 seconds at this point. In my opinion he is basically saying he is more important/above his coach or team. This like Terrell Owens and Keyshawn Johnson (Remember "Just throw me the Damm Ball"). I also have to admit, I see Lance doing more work in the Astana train than Contador (maybe it just when camera is on Lance), yet Contador reaps the awards.

Actually this is what I really think, this whole thing is set up by the Versus and American Advertisers to promote Lance. They paid Contador to attack to make Lance look good, have his team and peloton support/sympathize him and get him another Yellow Jersey. Lance Afffect=More Dollars, Pro Cycling=Pro Wrestling!


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## somdoosh (Jul 21, 2008)

durkind said:


> "there is no I in TEAM"


There's an 'i' in WIN, though. Draw your own conclusions.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

somdoosh said:


> There's an 'i' in WIN, though. Draw your own conclusions.


How dare anyone attack Lance. 

If a teammate had done what AC did to Lance anytime between 1999 & 2005, Lance would have immediatly chased him down and humiliated him. I think it speaks volumes that he didn't. Either:

- He couldn't
- The Plan was followed to a tee
- He's biding his time.

I think the last of those is the least likely of the 3, but, just like everyone else, it's all speculation. We'll know by the end of the tour which one it was.

Len


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*huh?*



durkind said:


> Actually this is what I really think, this whole thing is set up by the Versus and American Advertisers to promote Lance. They paid Contador to attack to make Lance look good, have his team and peloton support/sympathize him and get him another Yellow Jersey. Lance Afffect=More Dollars, Pro Cycling=Pro Wrestling!


My god, what have you been smoking? And better yet, where can I get some? :lol:


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

*Nuts...*



RSPDiver said:


> Not to be a "richard" but perhaps there is some contention in if he won the last three GTs, or "wound up winning" the last three GTs. Chicken had him for the Tour, but got pulled. Levi was nipping at his heels.
> 
> In some ways, I would almost say the sportsmanlike thing to do, since he's so young and so dominant, is to let Lance have his last, or better yet let Levi have his first (and only?) TdF overall victory, and earn some lasting cred. But there are some huge egos in the GC ranks, and perhaps next year's paycheck is more important to them than a going out as a career good guy (Hincapie, Popo, etc.)



Uh, you don't give a way GT wins.. Who in their right mind would do something like that, or even a stage win for that fact.. Levi has had his chance on two other teams to be "the man" and it obviously didn't work, so I say Contador doesn't have to give or should he give anyone crap.. You never know what tomorrow may bring and look at the Armstrong Pantani deal, Armstrong regretted it ever since..


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

durkind said:


> I think it was completely "bunk" what Contador did and I am not Lance fan (I want Andy Schleck). Everywhere I read that cycling is a "team" sport, and what is the saying, "there is no I in TEAM". Those meesely 20 seconds don't mean anything. That Astana team is so strong that 20 seconds can be gained later--team unity is more important that 20 seconds at this point. In my opinion he is basically saying he is more important/above his coach or team. This like Terrell Owens and Keyshawn Johnson (Remember "Just throw me the Damm Ball"). I also have to admit, I see Lance doing more work in the Astana train than Contador (maybe it just when camera is on Lance), yet Contador reaps the awards.


Lordy! Cycling is a team sport like baseball is a team sport: sort of, until the individual performance is needed. Nobody succeeds alone, but when the time comes, it is the individual who puts the hammer down and gets credit for the win. Football really _is_ a team sport, where the individual is merely a cog in a machine, and the team gets the win.

And how much team work did Lance do during his winning years? No CG guy takes pulls at the front, nor is Lance doing that this year.

What has been bunk (or punk) is the way Contador has been lied to about Lance's role on what was Contador's team, and the way Bruyneel has supplicated himself for his booyyy. The only reason Lance came out of retirement is to screw up Contador's chance to challenge Lance's record. Spite, nothing more, and that is pure Punk.

Wouldn't it be smarter for JB to have led LA to 7 Tour wins, then take on a new face and lead _him_ to 7 Tour wins? JB would be the don of all cycling! The Godfather. As it is, he looks like Lance's publicity director and cycling reputation guard.


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Mdeth1313 said:


> That's the "Lance-centric" view held by most americans. Personally, I'd like to see Contador or Kloden win the tour. The view that Lance deserves it because he's Lance is pretty much a load of crap.


And the rest of the world blames Lance for not babysitting Contador while AC sits there with his thumb in his ass and misses a break.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Mdeth1313 said:


> That's the "Lance-centric" view held by most americans. Personally, I'd like to see Contador or Kloden win the tour. The view that Lance deserves it because he's Lance is pretty much a load of crap.


Actually, I've thought from the beginning that Alberto would win. I hadn't figured on his telling the rest of the team to F-off. When it's all over, he may well learn that winning the tour substantially alone is not going to happen. It may not be too late to show he is a team player but it is a mistake to alienate those who work for you and especially those you work for. Not the brightest kid in the tdf--even though he may be the strongest.

On the other hand, JB is pretty sharp and this may well simply be to jerk the press and other teams around. Who knows?


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

piano said:


> My god, what have you been smoking? And better yet, where can I get some? :lol:


DUDE Get a grip -- I was joking!!!!!!


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

Italophile said:


> Lordy! Cycling is a team sport like baseball is a team sport: sort of, until the individual performance is needed. Nobody succeeds alone, but when the time comes, it is the individual who puts the hammer down and gets credit for the win. Football really _is_ a team sport, where the individual is merely a cog in a machine, and the team gets the win.


I agree absolutely--I know I was stretching the football analogy, but was this really the time "to put the hammer down and get credit for win." But if Contador was on another team this year, he could have been minutes behind after TTT. Look at Cadel, I don't think he has a chance with his team. (possibly as well as other factors). I also agree Contador got screwed with the whole re-emergence of Lance, but he could have chosen other avenues if he so wished. All I am saying is that if I was his teammates who were pulling him along all day then watched him decide on his own to take off, I would be pissed. I honestly think the strength of this team could enable any of the four headed monsters to win, whether its AC, Lance Levi or Kloden.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

durkind said:


> I agree absolutely--I know I was stretching the football analogy, but was this really the time "to put the hammer down and get credit for win." But if Contador was on another team this year, he could have been minutes behind after TTT. Look at Cadel, I don't think he has a chance with his team. (possibly as well as other factors). I also agree Contador got screwed with the whole re-emergence of Lance, but he could have chosen other avenues if he so wished. All I am saying is that if I was his teammates who were pulling him along all day then watched him decide on his own to take off, I would be pissed. I honestly think the strength of this team could enable any of the four headed monsters to win, whether its AC, Lance Levi or Kloden.


Good points all. I agree that Conty might be in purgatory if not for the TTT performance, and that is all true. Where would Evans or Sastre be if they were on the Astana roster? All true. I overstated my case, as I always tend to. 

And Alberto must not go off the reservation again, unless he is disrespected and forced to wait behind His Majesty in spite of superior ability on a late mountain stage of the race.

That said, I still hold that the plan of LA an JB is to undermine Contador's chances to win 7 Tours and dim Lance's shiny reputation. I don't blame him for a little flash of pique, a show of strength to remind the team and the old man who is the better rider when minutes can be lost going upwards. Alberto will emerge as #1 in the Alps if there is any justice, and the team orders will be for him to win on Ventoux.

It was bad enough when Lemond had to sacrifice a precious year of his career to Hinault's ego. Lemond had never won a Grand Tour. AC has won the last three he has entered! He deserves respect, and Lance has come in to take that from him. Shameful.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

SwiftSolo said:


> ...JB is pretty sharp and this may well simply be to jerk the press and other teams around. Who knows?


I sure hope so! I respect JB much, and would like to believe that he has righteously planned to let AC ultimately win if he is able.


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## LCFrecrider (Jan 4, 2006)

yater said:


> And the rest of the world blames Lance for not babysitting Contador while AC sits there with his thumb in his ass and misses a break.


Contador is the designated team leader. The team members should support the team leader. Lance should have been making sure AC was in that move, as should the other astana boys. Its obvious LA has never bought into AC as team leader. That is bogus for AC, who is being told by the DS that he is the leader...


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

it was a punk move - the whole team had been working hard setting tempo with the DS in their ear telling them to ride tempo to the finish, the race was totally under control, and there was no reason to attack (another GC contender hadn't gone up the road).
.
LA didn't counter because he'd rather build allegiance within the team to call on later. He won Kloden over (who dissed Contador on the move, since Kloden was the guy working hard into a headwind setting the tempo).


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> it was a punk move - the whole team had been working hard setting tempo with the DS in their ear telling them to ride tempo to the finish, the race was totally under control, and there was no reason to attack (another GC contender hadn't gone up the road).
> .
> LA didn't counter because he'd rather build allegiance within the team to call on later. He won Kloden over (who dissed Contador on the move, since Kloden was the guy working hard into a headwind setting the tempo).


Funny how when LA does anything during the race, it's because he's a genius or a team player. And when AC does anything during the race it's because he's either a dumb a** or a punk.


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## lamazion (Sep 11, 2004)

godot said:


> Funny how when LA does anything during the race, it's because he's a genius or a team player. And when AC does anything during the race it's because he's either a dumb a** or a punk.


I'm a big AC fan. I think he is the strongest and will win the tour. It was a dumb move. Hurt his standing on the team for 20 sec. He will gain all the time he needs in week three.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

lamazion said:


> I'm a big AC fan. I think he is the strongest and will win the tour.* It was a dumb move*. Hurt his standing on the team for 20 sec. He will gain all the time he needs in week three.


That's just it. A dumb, poorly though out move. If he had that much confidence, he wouldn't have felt the need to showboat so early in the tour. Merckx said as much..."It was the move of an insecure rider" or some such. 

I'm not rooting _against_ the guy, even though I think he's smarmy, and in some regards I can't fault him for saying, "eff this." He just picked a foul time to do it. 

Still I'd rather see LA take it the Tour. Problem is, even if he wins, I can see many people saying he only won it because JB and Company farked Cont over. 

There'll be those saying "if they'd have let him go on the the first Pyrenees stage earlier he'd have won! Blah blah blah." 

Makes for an interesting tour, but I feel for _all_ the GC contenders as it causes a great deal of distraction.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

godot said:


> Funny how when LA does anything during the race, it's because he's a genius or a team player. And when AC does anything during the race it's because he's either a dumb a** or a punk.


the only thing LA has done so far is read the race correctly to be in a position when another team split the group. That was smart racing. Had Contador been reacting to an attack by Evans, Schleck etc that would have been OK (in that case Armstrong would have gone too likely). But you don't attack your own team when they are setting you up for the GC and you don't do it when your DS is yelling in your radio for the team to ride tempo. 

I hope Contador doesn't get a flat at a bad time and look around for Kloden or Levi to bring him back...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> the only thing LA has done so far is read the race correctly to be in a position when another team split the group. That was smart racing. Had Contador been reacting to an attack by Evans, Schleck etc that would have been OK (in that case Armstrong would have gone too likely). But you don't attack your own team when they are setting you up for the GC and you don't do it when your DS is yelling in your radio for the team to ride tempo.
> 
> I hope Contador doesn't get a flat at a bad time and look around for Kloden or Levi to bring him back...


I lotto rider had just gone up the road when AC took off, maybe his argument he was worried Evans was setting something up and wanted to pre-empt that. Not the best argument in the world but I've seen worse


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I had always figured this "bad blood" was stage managed like pro wrestling. Astana would see that Lance got an early yellow jersey in case the old guy gives out... they get the press attention and Lance can have a last moment in the sun for endorsements, bragging rights and legacy... then AC wins the TdF and it can be billed as a "passing of the torch" and then LA can retire knowing the world knows he is really "the best" (ego thing)... Everyone is a big winner... LA gets his, AC gets his, the press and the tour get their stories... "ta da... The Aristocrats!". 

I guess I was way wrong. The competitive drive is really a force to be reckoned with.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Contador is a winner.


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## WinstonSmith (Apr 25, 2009)

bornin53 said:


> In order to find fault with Contador's attack, one has to be looking at the situation through the "I want Lance to win" prism. Bruyneel said Contador had earned the team leadership role. Its hard to argue that the person who won the last 3 GTs he entered has not earned the right to be the leader. When LA joined the team, AC almost quit but Hog assured him he'd be the leader if he was the strongest rider, which by the way, he is.
> 
> AC gained about 20 seconds by attacking at the end of Stage 7. How would Astana be in better position if AC was 20 seconds further back? They wouldn't be, but the revered Armstrong would be in position to take the yellow jersey, which is what the Lance fans want to see.
> 
> If having an undecided team leadership is a good thing, why is it so seldom done? Can anyone site a situation where this strategy worked to a team's advantage in the Tour?


Right on, well said.


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## WinstonSmith (Apr 25, 2009)

Mdeth1313 said:


> That's the "Lance-centric" view held by most americans. Personally, I'd like to see Contador or Kloden win the tour. The view that Lance deserves it because he's Lance is pretty much a load of crap.


That's Versus's view. Their Lance fantasy will come to a sad end when their star doesn't podium.


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## WinstonSmith (Apr 25, 2009)

durkind said:


> I think it was completely "bunk" what Contador did and I am not Lance fan (I want Andy Schleck). Everywhere I read that cycling is a "team" sport, and what is the saying, "there is no I in TEAM". Those meesely 20 seconds don't mean anything. That Astana team is so strong that 20 seconds can be gained later--team unity is more important that 20 seconds at this point. In my opinion he is basically saying he is more important/above his coach or team. This like Terrell Owens and Keyshawn Johnson (Remember "Just throw me the Damm Ball"). I also have to admit, I see Lance doing more work in the Astana train than Contador (maybe it just when camera is on Lance), yet Contador reaps the awards.
> 
> Actually this is what I really think, this whole thing is set up by the Versus and American Advertisers to promote Lance. They paid Contador to attack to make Lance look good, have his team and peloton support/sympathize him and get him another Yellow Jersey. Lance Afffect=More Dollars, Pro Cycling=Pro Wrestling!


Hmm. maybe. We know that Bob Roll and Lance are riding buddies. :wink: You never know what money is passed under the table. Versus has showed us before they have no issues with lowering the bar.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> the only thing LA has done so far is read the race correctly to be in a position when another team split the group. That was smart racing. Had Contador been reacting to an attack by Evans, Schleck etc that would have been OK (in that case Armstrong would have gone too likely). But you don't attack your own team when they are setting you up for the GC and you don't do it when your DS is yelling in your radio for the team to ride tempo.
> 
> I hope Contador doesn't get a flat at a bad time and look around for Kloden or Levi to bring him back...


What if LA had been the one that attacked against team orders in order to either get the yellow jersey, or put time into AC. Would that be a punk move, or smart racing?

Obviously, revisionist history is a slippery slope, I'm just curious.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

> It was a dumb move. Hurt his standing on the team for 20 sec.


Ask Laurent Fignon if 20 seconds is a piffling amount of time. What's wrong with AC checking out Lance's legs the first chance he gets? LA lost no credibility by the move, he can fall back on the 'I'm a team player riposte' to cover the possibility that he just couldn't go with AC. Fine, but he can't do that too many more times. AC might have played himself a little early but in a race this close getting back 20 secs might prove crucial.


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## husonfirst (Jul 15, 2006)

godot said:


> What if LA had been the one that attacked against team orders in order to either get the yellow jersey, or put time into AC. Would that be a punk move, or smart racing?


Then clearly Lance would be painted as a master strategist.

BTW, Bruyneel said that they had no specific plans that day

"This morning, we didn't give any specific instructions. I just told them [Contador and Armstrong] to talk to each other, and do what they have to do. "
Source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/96th-tour-de-france-gt/stages/stage-7/results


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

godot said:


> What if LA had been the one that attacked against team orders in order to either get the yellow jersey, or put time into AC. Would that be a punk move, or smart racing?
> 
> Obviously, revisionist history is a slippery slope, I'm just curious.



If ANYONE attacked under same circumstances it would be a punk move!!! It just happened to involve AC and Lance.


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

David Loving said:


> Contador is a winner.



Oh So Profound. Maybe we can all go to bed now!


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## brentley (Jul 20, 2008)

1. I am a huge pro Lance fan, I actually think that his comeback is great for raising cancer awareness. I also think he has a tremendous ego and he wants to win.
2. He is not as fast as AC is when the climbs start and I think that we are going to see that in the Alps.
3. This interaction is harkening back to the days of Hinault-Lemond and is actually great for the tour. If they can have a tour where everyone tests clean and some drama due to intra team strife that is just great.
4. Astana riding tempo on the front makes for boring stages, the tourmelet should rip folks apart, not just be another climb.
5. Remember that the team that pulled the break off was Columbia (team of George Hincapie) and that George was the top domestique on the wins that Lance had.

either way, I just think that Lance will find that his legs just are not there when it really comes time to show up. As great of a story as that would be I just don't see it happening without a serious mishap to Alberto (hopefully not a repeat of Beloki which still makes me cringe when I think about it).


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

*The reason I believe Contador atacked...*

is if Armstrong makes it into yellow before him, do you think there is any chance at all that JB doesn't throw all the Astana support behind Armstrong? Contador would immediately be ordered into a domestique role, guaranteed. The allegiance between JB and Armstrong is absolute. You have to figure, if JB wants the job with the Livestrong team next year, he better not bite the hand that feeds him. JB is looking for ANY reason to declare Armstrong team leader. He knows Contador is out of the picture for him next year, and he and Armstrong can go on and on.


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## bubbha70 (Aug 8, 2004)

Contador's attack was pretty impressive.

What if he attacked a couple of more times, maybe a little earlier, and separated himself from LA by a minute or two. Then he does well in the ITT.

Could he win the TdF by himself?


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## turbogrover (Jan 1, 2006)

bubbha70 said:


> Contador's attack was pretty impressive.
> 
> What if he attacked a couple of more times, maybe a little earlier, and separated himself from LA by a minute or two. Then he does well in the ITT.
> 
> Could he win the TdF by himself?


If he went earlier, he would've been reeled back in by the peloton for zero time gain. Now were down to "what if" statements already?

Could he win it by himself? No.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Contador could easily win the TDF by himself. This little guy has proven that he doesn't even need to train to win a stage race. Giro 2008


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

IMHO, Hawayyan and Eddie Merckx (and they make fine commentating team, too!) correctly probed Contador's motives for putting the hammer down. Yes, the move was the act of an insecure cyclist. And yes, Contador had good reason to be insecure. 

Ahhh, My Precioussssssss...


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

il sogno said:


> Nah... no gifts remember?


Yup, and I'm willing to bet that if there were no Lance, people would be cheering from the hilltops about this like it was Vino or Jens attacking back in the day. Lance crashed the Alberto team; not the other way around.


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## karatemom (Mar 21, 2008)

I sympathize with AC. He was supposed to be team leader, all primed to win the TdF after being excluded last year, and then the most famous and dominant previous TdF winner comes out of retirement AND is on your team! Doesn't that sound like a nightmare? I don't think his move on stage 7 was the smartest one, but I think he did it just because he could. If you were AC, wouldn't you be marking LA and putting time into him when you could?


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## squadra (May 20, 2009)

Of course, all this "dissention in the Astana ranks" could be a briliant ploy by JB to sow confusion in the competition. Keep 'em all guessing while Astana sweeps the podium.
Great fun this TDF stuff eh?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

squadra said:


> Of course, all this "dissention in the Astana ranks" could be a briliant ploy by JB to sow confusion in the competition. Keep 'em all guessing while Astana sweeps the podium.
> *Great fun this TDF stuff eh*?



Not really. (at this point) I'd rather see a cohesive, well-oiled machine doing its thing as a unit. It'd be a hell of a lot more interesting if LA and Cont were on different teams.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

Hawayyan said:


> is if Armstrong makes it into yellow before him, do you think there is any chance at all that JB doesn't throw all the Astana support behind Armstrong? Contador would immediately be ordered into a domestique role, guaranteed. The allegiance between JB and Armstrong is absolute. You have to figure, if JB wants the job with the Livestrong team next year, he better not bite the hand that feeds him. JB is looking for ANY reason to declare Armstrong team leader. He knows Contador is out of the picture for him next year, and he and Armstrong can go on and on.


Bing-Go. You nailed it.

AC had to get the 20 seconds just to stay alive in this Tour. Alberto is like a lion cub in danger of being killed and eaten by a new interloping dominant male in the pride. He made a move for his own survival, and I don't blame him one bit. Go, Al, _Go!_ :thumbsup:


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## iambent (Apr 24, 2009)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Not really. (at this point) I'd rather see a cohesive, well-oiled machine doing its thing as a unit. It'd be a hell of a lot more interesting if LA and Cont were on different teams.


 You will see that next year.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

If AC isn't insecure on that team he's an idiot. the DS and his 7 time tour winner ego bigger than jupiter teammate are butt buddies and who knows what support if any he's going to get from the rest of the team. he's already been lied to repeatedly this season by JB to keep him from switching teams when LA decided to come back. F astana and F team orders. I'd attack like there's no tomorrow, because at Astana there isn't for him. LA can do the salty pout all he wants, he doesn't have the legs to do it without the team sabotaging AC - no matter what the VS crew says about it.


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## JayZee (Sep 3, 2008)

Mdeth1313 said:


> That's the "Lance-centric" view held by most americans.


Really? Did you take a poll? Exaggerate much? Besides, regardless of whether it is true, since when was it bad to favor your fellow countryman? Or is that just bad when it is Lance? Personally I am American and I don't hold that view, so count me out.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

JB will lose a lot of respect with future pros if he continues favoring Lance at the expense of AC. He's playing career ending games if he doesn't get behind AC quick.

If you look back at AC and his wins you can see that he's a fighter and not one to play nice if you're jacking with him. 

AC has an oppertunity to completely destroy the legendary Lance and that's something that should make AC lick his chops.


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

I wouldnt be surprised to see A. Schleck show up both LA and AC at the Alps. I dont think anything has happened yet to prove which Astana GC is the strongest. That break by AC didnt prove nothing about LA legs as he didnt try to attack back. Inconclusive. Nothing has happened yet to prove which one is the strongest imho. Cant wait for the Alps where this may just be settled as who is the strongest between those two. Doesnt mean either one will win the stage. Im thinking A. Schleck.


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

heathb said:


> JB will lose a lot of respect with future pros if he continues favoring Lance at the expense of AC. He's playing career ending games if he doesn't get behind AC quick.
> 
> If you look back at AC and his wins you can see that he's a fighter and not one to play nice if you're jacking with him.
> 
> AC has an oppertunity to completely destroy the legendary Lance and that's something that should make AC lick his chops.



AC has way more to prove than LA and has more to lose in this matchup...Destroying an old man[by cycling standards] at the end of his career hardly something to write home about. He is supposed to. Now if he cant then LOL. I hate looking at it from this angle because it reduces this TDF to a petty level. But it is fun.


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## fullthrottle (Oct 26, 2003)

It's Crystal Clear there is only one guy that has won the Tour 7 Times.......Lance Armstrong At 37 he is Simply Amazing in every way. 

Riders win Stages.......Teams win Tours.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Italophile said:


> Lance could easily win this Tour, no doubt. So could Contador. For that matter, on this team, if they were all working for Klöden or Leipheimer, either of those could win!
> 
> But if you took any one of these from that team and dumped him onto some run-of-the-mill squad like Silence-Lotto, who would fare best? Not Levi. Not Andreas. And not Lance, either. He has not won on an average team in this decade, and he is not the same physical phenomenon he was before the age of 35.
> 
> ...




Carlos races smarter than Alberto, though. If it were Contador on a weak team vs. Sastre on a weak team, I might put my money on Sastre.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Actually,

Regardless of what LA says
Regardless of what AC says
Regardless of what JB says
Regardless of how we interpret what we see

We have no idea what is supposed to happen. Maybe there isn't as much "bad blood" between the two of them as it seems. Maybe there is. 

Boy howdy their fans sure take it personally when the other rider does something. The Contador fans want Lance to have a heart attack and die chasing Alberto up Ventoux, and the Lance fans want him to beat Contador by eight minutes, insult him with a racial slur when he gets to the top, and for Toby Keith to write a patriotic song about it when it's all over. 

Maybe they will just race and the fastest guy will win in the end?


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

thechriswebb said:


> ...Boy howdy their fans sure take it personally when the other rider does something. The Contador fans want Lance to have a heart attack and die chasing Alberto up Ventoux...
> 
> Maybe they will just race and the fastest guy will win in the end?


Hey, I am a fan of both, but the way Lance has used his deep and abiding relationship with Bruyneel to yank the rug out from under Contador is pretty bush league, and makes obvious his narcissistic obsession with being the One and Only Seven [or Eight]-time Tour Champ.

I would respect Armstrong a lot more if he had spent more time racing during the season and less time doing recon rides for the only race he thinks matters. He has disrespected the traditions of cycling in so doing, and he does not deserve to be ranked atop the Tour Champion heap.

That is why I root for Contador now. Let's have an _honest_ fight and see who wins. But this one cannot be honest if the team is under orders to serve Lance and hang Alberto out to dry. Thus, Contador must look after his own interests until he can get off of that "team".


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## fullthrottle (Oct 26, 2003)

Lance elevated cycling in every way. He pushed Training, Technologies and his Team to a higher standard. There will only ever be one Lance Armstrong.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

fullthrottle said:


> Lance elevated cycling in every way. He pushed Training, Technologies and his Team to a higher standard. There will only ever be one Lance Armstrong.


Disagree entirely. Lance did not elevate cycling in very way. He elevated a methodology for winning the Tour de France in every way. That's a big difference. The average member of the public who doesn't follow cycling may put all their apples in this basket, but there's a heck of a lot more to pro cycling than the TdF, and having a record number of TdF wins doesn't rank Lance anywhere near the top of the heap for best cyclist of all time, for most 24x365 cycling fans who have a more well-rounded historical perspective.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

*Lance elevated cycling...*

in AMERICA to it's current AMERICAN level. Cycling did not need to be elevated in Europe.


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## fullthrottle (Oct 26, 2003)

Well Stated. Cycling is simply Amazing in Europe and Lance brought all of that Excitement to America. Go Lance.......Livestrong


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Hawayyan said:


> in AMERICA to it's current AMERICAN level. Cycling did not need to be elevated in Europe.


So the increased crowd size this year is all Americans? Or is it coincidence?


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## Snakebitten (Jun 26, 2008)

Italophile said:


> Hey, I am a fan of both, but the way Lance has used his deep and abiding relationship with Bruyneel to yank the rug out from under Contador is pretty bush league, and makes obvious his narcissistic obsession with being the One and Only Seven [or Eight]-time Tour Champ.
> 
> .


And we know this as fact that he did yank the rug out from under Contador? For all we know they could just be playing the media and rival teams. Do we also know as fact that he has a narcissistic obsession with being the One and Only Seven or Eight time TDF champeen? AC only has 1 TDF so far. Until he wins 6 in a row or 6 any which way he can, what possible worry is he to Armstrong at the moment with only 1 TDF if he is indeed narcissistic? When you sit down and logically look at some of the arguments against LA its mostly emotional stuff with little factual backing. At least some of the stuff Ive been reading lately about both AC and LA.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Italophile said:


> Hey, I am a fan of both, but the way Lance has used his deep and abiding relationship with Bruyneel to yank the rug out from under Contador is pretty bush league, and makes obvious his narcissistic obsession with being the One and Only Seven [or Eight]-time Tour Champ.
> 
> I would respect Armstrong a lot more if he had spent more time racing during the season and less time doing recon rides for the only race he thinks matters. He has disrespected the traditions of cycling in so doing, and he does not deserve to be ranked atop the Tour Champion heap.
> 
> That is why I root for Contador now. Let's have an _honest_ fight and see who wins. But this one cannot be honest if the team is under orders to serve Lance and hang Alberto out to dry. Thus, Contador must look after his own interests until he can get off of that "team".


I find comments like these to be ridiculous.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Hah! I keep hoping for it to be part of some Machiavellian grand plan devised by JB that will, in the end, be regarded as among the greatest strategies in the annuls of sports... revealing to the world that JB is a strategic genius on par with Napoleon, Alexander and Kasparov...but probably not.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

fullthrottle said:


> Lance elevated cycling in every way. He pushed Training, Technologies and his Team to a higher standard. There will only ever be one Lance Armstrong.



And at opposite extreme from comments such as Italophile's this is equally ridiculous. It's kind of like some people are watching this Tour like it were a farking Telenovela.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

These belittling remarks about America hurt my feelings.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

Italophile said:


> I sure hope so! I respect JB much, and would like to believe that he has righteously planned to let AC ultimately win if he is able.


Yeah, with a nickname like the Hog, it's obvious that respect is universal.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

oops double post...


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

fullthrottle said:


> Lance elevated cycling in every way. He pushed <b>"Training"</b>, Technologies and his Team to a higher standard. There will only ever be one Lance Armstrong.


fixed


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

fullthrottle said:


> Lance elevated cycling in every way. He pushed Training, Technologies and his Team to a higher standard..



Actually, he's probably set back all three of those qualities in more ways than you can imagine.

Regarding training, he's a disciple of Ferrari who in turn was a disciple of Conconi. Besides methodologies we're not allowed to go into in this forum, Conconi's and Ferrari's chief claim to fame was training based on lactate threshold. Since the time the Conconi test was devised, the understanding of lactic acid's role in physiology has been completely revised.

Prominent physiologists believe that the staple of LA's training, long aerobic training efforts, only works efficiently under certain circumstances, which are outside the scope of this forum.

In contrast, LeMond has been advocating shorter high intensity training which focuses primarily on quality, and not quantity, since the early 80's, which falls in line with the trend for all kinds of physical training. The advent of LA's tour "successes" has set cycling training back decades because so many mindlessly emulate him.

Another staple of the Armstrong toolbox is high cadence pedaling. Again, this utilization of higher cadences is believed to only work for those who employ certain methodologies advocated by Conconi and Ferrari.


Cyclists who don't use the same methodologies as those advanced by Ferrari and Conconi, will not benefit by incorporating the pedaling style and training popularized by Armstrong although these have techniques have been widely hawked by Carmichael Training Systems.

Technologies? You mean that Treks are superior to the other teams bikes and that accounts for the differences? A number of guys were riding narrow TT bikes before LA tried to ride one and the narrow bike is one of the biggest contributers to decreasing wind resistance. LA tested on a bike with a narrower Q factor and found that his power was lower than using his regular TT bike so that went out the window, and they had supposedly spent a quarter of a million on the thing.

As for Team, I don't know what TdF you're watching. Maybe you can tell me what year during his 7 win reign, he wasn't the team leader with the whole team built around his success? They didn't even have a sprinter in those years. The team was basically riding 100 mile leadouts setting up his attack on the final climb of the first mountain stage. Then he defended his advantage with his TT ability. God knows where that came from after he was repeatedly crushed by Indurain by more than 6 minutes each in the long TT's of '93, '94, and '95. Now all of a sudden, because he's not the designated team leader, that position is up for grabs as the race progresses? Please. He was 4th fastest in the opening TT and really hasn't done anything to distinguish himself, other than having Hincapie tell him to stay at the front because Columbia was going to go full gas when they turned into the wind. In this TdF he's been anything but a good teammate. He didn't chase AC down because he couldn't, plain and simple. In the old days he would have taken off from 10k out at the steepest part of the climb and wouldn't have been seen again.



fullthrottle said:


> There will only ever be one Lance Armstrong.


Thankfully! Many in the cycling community were happy to be rid of him, only for him to return due to his mid life crisis or whatever you want to call it.


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## stihl (Oct 27, 2005)

lookrider said:


> Actually, he's probably set back all three of those qualities in more ways than you can imagine...
> Thankfully! Many in the cycling community were happy to be rid of him, only for him to return due to his mid life crisis or whatever you want to call it.


:cryin: I think it's time for you to go back down to your forum..


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

stihl said:


> :cryin: I think it's time for you to go back down to your forum..


:ciappa: :ciappa: :ciappa: :wink: :wink: :lol:


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

rocco said:


> I find comments like these to be ridiculous.


Which comment is ridiculous?
That Lance is an obsessive narcissist? That should be obvious to any observer.
That they have pretty much lied to Contador in order to keep him on the team? That should be obvious to any observer.
That Lance has disrespected cycling over the years by racing too few races other than the Tour? That opinion is widely held.
That team orders might be structured to create an unfair advantage for Lance over Alberto? That is my suspicion, and repeated comments of Lance himself have led me to it.

Maybe they are using psychology against the other teams, or maybe trying to toughen up Contador for the inevitable challenges. If so, it may be brilliant. If not, it makes Lance a villain.

I have watched Armstrong's career since it began, and I was never much of a fan of his arrogance until after his disease. Then it seemed like defiance of death, and it became a mark of courage. I admired his tactics throughout his seven Tour wins. He and Bruyneel are the best Grand Tour managers I have ever seen. I was a fan, though I sort of wished somebody would beat him before he got number six.

But coming back to the team of the next great challenger to his record, intending to take team leadership from him, is cowardly and cheap. That is my opinion. If Lance had come back to Team Columbia to rejoin Big George, I would be thrilled! But I feel as though Alberto Contador is being treated with despite, and it grates on me.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

Italophile said:


> Which comment is ridiculous?
> That Lance is an obsessive narcissist? That should be obvious to any observer.
> That they have pretty much lied to Contador in order to keep him on the team? That should be obvious to any observer.
> That Lance has disrespected cycling over the years by racing too few races other than the Tour? That opinion is widely held.
> ...


He is still "Lance," but I think that he is a little different than he used to be. He has apologized for off-color remarks that he has made and says repeatedly that he believes that Contador is currently the most talented stage racer in the world. If Contador demonstrates that he is "the man," then I think Lance will work for him. 

I heard Armstrong in a recent interview, responding to a question concerning an improved opinion of him in France. He said: "maybe they can see that I am not the rider that I used to be." Of course it sounds like he is saying that they like him because he is not as much of a competitive factor as he used to be, but that is not what I think he is saying. Honestly, at this point in the race he does not look any weaker than he did in some previous Tours. I think he is saying that they might like him better because he is not as much of a jerk as he used to be. Even though he is 8 seconds off of yellow right now, he has been seen pacing the peloton from the front and he did the vast majority of the work in the TTT. I may be wrong about that interpretation, but that is what it sounded like to me. The peloton sure seems to respect him. 

If personality is really to be an issue though, Contador is not any better than Armstrong. 

The strongest man will win, I believe.


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## ping771 (Apr 10, 2006)

Interesting analysis from Bill Strickland at Bicycling, who analyzes Lance's increasing strength towards the end of the Tour, while Contador, based on previous performances, gets slightly weaker. Then again, Lance is not as strong as before since, in his prior years, he wore yellow by this time in the Tour. I didn't realize that the last week was as grueling as it is until I looked at the stage preview of Stages 16-20. Holy cow, the ITT is sandwiched between them, with one relatively flat stage before Mt. Ventoux. 

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/article/0,6610,s1-7-123-20007-1,00.html


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## yater (Nov 30, 2006)

Hawayyan said:


> in AMERICA to it's current AMERICAN level. Cycling did not need to be elevated in Europe.


There sure was a big turnout to support him at the Tour Down Under! ...oops! Cycling has gone global.


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## iamnotfilip (Jul 9, 2007)

Italophile said:


> Hey, I am a fan of both, but the way Lance has used his deep and abiding relationship with Bruyneel to yank the rug out from under Contador is pretty bush league, and makes obvious his narcissistic obsession with being the One and Only Seven [or Eight]-time Tour Champ.


Spot on. I think Lance is feeling insecure because he knows his legacy will be overshadowed by Contador. That's why I think he came out, to beat him head to head, and use his media machine and relationship with Bryneel to corner Contadror.

But Alberto seems to be on par with Lance when it comes to mind games. In fact, I think he is outsmarting him a bit in all this hoopla.


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