# Spoke count and rider weight



## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

So I've been watching the threads about weight and wheels and once you get over 200lbs. the word seems to be you need more then 20/24. Looking over the different sites and charts though it seems the Reynolds and a couple others are often recommended for the heavier rider. 
Looking at some of the different wheels though they have the lower spoke count. So what makes these wheels strong enough? 
The other question is watching the road party video and cross races these 40m wheels seem to take a hell of a beating so why wouldn't they be fine for a heavier rider on roads?
I'm completely new in trying to understand the wheel technology but looking around it's a bit murky as far as a clear answer as well. So to the boards.

Also I get that the bling of these rims is mostly show for the non racer but I still want the bling. Having just recently upgraded my wheels I can say I appreciate the difference the improvement has offered. These hook up so much better that I feel like I have a new motor.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

STRANA said:


> I get that the bling of these rims is mostly show for the non racer but I still want the bling. Having just recently upgraded my wheels I can say I appreciate the difference the improvement has offered. These hook up so much better that I feel like I have a new motor.


You're a marketer's dream. You drank the glass o' hype. Just how much of an improvement did you gain?


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

I went from some cheapy mass produced rims to some built Mavix CPX22 I was comparing these. The old ones lost spokes at the hub from flexing all the time and I could feel that on a hard climb.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I'm a big guy and I've never noticed much wheel flex when climbing. I have several sets of standard spoked wheels, a set of Zondas, some Cosmic Carbones, carbon tubulars, and some spinergy pbo spoke wheels. The Zondas are 16/21 spoke front/rear and I've been riding them for around 7 years including today. The Carbones are 20/20 and they are 16 years old. Wheels are designed for strength and light weight, light weight being the selling point. It's all overblown.


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## Doug B (Sep 11, 2009)

230 pounds, 5'-11" Clyde here. This year, I'm trying to get down to 210 pounds or less. 

I have been on a set of 20-24 wheels for five years. No problem keeping wheels true, no broken spokes, no problems at all.


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

Doug B said:


> 230 pounds, 5'-11" Clyde here. This year, I'm trying to get down to 210 pounds or less.
> 
> I have been on a set of 20-24 wheels for five years. No problem keeping wheels true, no broken spokes, no problems at all.


This seems to be the case often reported but then I would read a number of posts saying not enough spokes. I started to wonder if there was a considerable difference in spoke quality and maybe that was the reason. I saw Reynolds being suggested and they were 20/24 but then Mavic Cosmic often being said to max out at about 190lbs.

It was just not making clear sense why a brand wheel with 20/24 of one brand is working fine for many and in some brand even being recommended but then not others. Specialy in the case of big names like Mavic, Envy, etc...

Marketing wasn't really the angle I was after as a bigger rider I could lose 10lbs. in a month and save the thousands required to save the same in equipment.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

STRANA said:


> I went from some cheapy mass produced rims to some built Mavix CPX22 I was comparing these. The old ones lost spokes at the hub from flexing all the time and *I could feel that on a hard climb.*


Uh huh...sure you could.


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> Uh huh...sure you could.


Maybe my understanding of what I was feeling isn't exactly accurate but the result is. Not sure why the assumption is otherwise? I replaced enough spokes until I was on the new wheels and notice a pronounced difference when riding them.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

STRANA said:


> Maybe my understanding of what I was feeling isn't exactly accurate but the result is. Not sure why the assumption is otherwise? I replaced enough spokes until I was on the new wheels and notice a pronounced difference when riding them.


Did your old wheels ever rub the brake pads?


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> You're a marketer's dream. You drank the glass o' hype. Just how much of an improvement did you gain?


True, but if he can afford it I don't see a problem with it. I wouldn't personally make the switch. Not really worth it in my opinion except if money is not a problem


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> Did your old wheels ever rub the brake pads?


Fresh from the LBS no. If I lost a spoke the first indicator during the ride would be brake rub.

It's not that I'm looking to change wheels it's that I'm trying to understand them better. In trying to make sense of comments in other threads and reading online I must be turned around. I'm using my wheels as the example of how I think the wheels are better. I'm just not asking the right way I don't think.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I think there are alot of factors that go into "which wheel?" besides weight and spoke count. 

Just a few factors off the top of my head:
Riding style
Riding terrain
Rider priorities
Type of spoke
Rim weight
Rim design/construction
Rim depth

I think it is pretty hard to make a blanket "if you are between 170-180 lbs you need 24/28 f/r spokes". So you are going to see variance between brands and models.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

The stiffer the rim, the lower the spoke count. Flexy rims like stan's 340s require more spokes than stouter rims. Seems that a stiff rim will deform less easily, which should make all the spokes be loaded more uniformly, avoiding huge swings in tension and premature failures. I've never read this anywhere.....sometimes I just try to think like a wheel. I've read that straight pull spokes are more durable, because of the loss of the elbow, though I've never had a spoke fail at the elbow. Good luck.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

I generally weigh between 205 and 210 and have put many thousands of miles on several different wheelsets over the last few years not one of which had more than 28 spokes and several with fewer. Have never broken a spoke or had trouble keeping the wheels true. Some that I have ridden include Mavic Ksyrium Elites, SRAM S30 AL Sprints, Zipp 101s, Zipp 404s, and Zipp 303s. You'll note that most of these are deep-ish rims which will make sure a stronger wheel and require fewer spokes for a given rider weight. I would pretty much keep to the the manufacturer's recommended max weight however.


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## Bog (Feb 2, 2005)

krisdrum said:


> I think there are alot of factors that go into "which wheel?" besides weight and spoke count.
> 
> Just a few factors off the top of my head:
> Riding style
> ...


I agree. I've never weighed more than 185 lbs but over the years have broken a spoke in a Mavic Ksyrium Elite, pulled an eyelet out of the rear rim twice and broken a spoke in a set of Mavic Aksiums. I tend to get out of the saddle on short, sharp climbs but wouldn't say I'm especially hard on wheels or ride on particularly bad roads.

Since building my own wheels in the last year or so I haven't experienced any problems but obviously it's too soon to tell yet. Spoke failure being more down to fatigue cycle more than anything else (so I'm told). What I have discovered building my own wheels is that 32F/32R makes almost no difference to weight and performance but will make a lot more difference in terms of strength and reliability. Even if I do break a spoke or ding a rim it will be a lot easier and cheaper to source the replacement part that it would be with "look-at-me" factory wheels of questionable performance benefit.

If a spoke fails in a lower spoke count wheel, the buckling effect will be much greater with less spokes to support the rim. Why take the risk especially on long events that you are not going to finish or worse still have a catastrophic failure?


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

STRANA said:


> It's not that I'm looking to change wheels it's that I'm trying to understand them better. In trying to make sense of comments in other threads and reading online I must be turned around. I'm using my wheels as the example of how I think the wheels are better. I'm just not asking the right way I don't think.


Have you compared a low spoke count prebuilt wheel like the Mavic Ksyrium or Fulcrum Racing side by side to a custom, higher spoke count, wheel? 
What have you noticed?


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

The deep dish rims are basically a big truss, plus they have more material therefore the extra strength they provide can take the place of many spokes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

STRANA said:


> Maybe my understanding of what I was feeling isn't exactly accurate but the result is. Not sure why the assumption is otherwise? I replaced enough spokes until I was on the new wheels and notice a pronounced difference when riding them.


If you "replaced enough spokes" I would hazard a guess that the wheels were poorly built. Loose spokes will break at the elbow/hub flange interface, and once one breaks more will continue to break unless the wheel is retensioned after the 1st broken spoke. If a 2nd spoke breaks it's time to rebuild the wheel with all new spokes.

This issue has nothing to do with spoke count, but if the spokes are loose enough you very well may feel that in the ride.


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

velodog said:


> If you "replaced enough spokes" I would hazard a guess that the wheels were poorly built. Loose spokes will break at the elbow/hub flange interface, and once one breaks more will continue to break unless the wheel is retensioned after the 1st broken spoke. If a 2nd spoke breaks it's time to rebuild the wheel with all new spokes.
> 
> This issue has nothing to do with spoke count, but if the spokes are loose enough you very well may feel that in the ride.


That explains how I was meaning about the feel I think. The previouse wheels had 3 then 7 spokes replaced. Then the LBS rebuild the wheel but it did 2 more spokes within a week. The new wheels are perfect after 5k and as a result feel planted or firm (not sure that's the best description). After that experience and reading different threads I was trying to understand the spokes in relation to this. If it was just a matter of more spokes is better I was wondering why more wheeels didn't use more spokes except for the racers and weight concerned folks.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

STRANA said:


> It was just not making clear sense why a brand wheel with 20/24 of one brand is working fine for many and in some brand even being recommended but then not others.


Weight limits on wheels are very arbitrary... a guess. Weight is an important factor, but not the most important factor for determining how a wheelset will be stressed. Some of the wheels here that 230lb riders have no problem with, would be destroyed by some 150lb riders in short order. 

The stiffer the rim, the fewer spokes you need to acheive the same wheel strength and stiffness. 

Another very large factor is build quality. Most likely that was the main issue with the wheels you had problems with. It would probably cost an extra $1 to have that Chinese guy do a good job, but the company has decided that it isn't worth it.


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