# Slaying the Badger tonight on ESPN



## High Gear

If you don't know what this, never mind.
ESPN Films: 30 for 30 Index


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## tvad

Thanks for the reminder! I had forgotten. Just set the DVR.


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## Hiro11

Things I enjoyed about this:
1. All of the sweet shots of giant early 80s Oakleys.
2. The way all of the graphics were based on a La Vie Clair Mondrian design.
3. Kathy Lemond repeatedly interrupting Greg and disagreeing with him, in a loving way. You can tell they're still crazy about each other.
4. The montage of Hinault in his prime: going over a cliff and still winning, wearing aviator sunglasses with a neck cord blowing in the wind while in the yellow jersey, beating the crap out of a striker, standing at the front of the peloton in the French national champion kit like le patron at age 23 etc. There has never been a cooler cyclist.
5. Paul Koechli getting creepier and more douchebag-ish as the film goes on.
6. Andy Hampsten looking like he hasn't aged a day in 30 years.
7. Hinault being completely unapologetic and actually having a point (despite the movie being more than a little slanted against him).
8. All of the sweet vintage kits. The killer bee Renault/Elf/Gitane, the La Vie Clair masterpiece, Delgado in the slightly obscure but very cool PDM, Roche in the totally obscure but very cool La Redoute etc. Greg Lemond's Toshiba-era La Vie Clair kit with the WC rainbow bands, sewn on patches and custom-knit winter cap is (IMO) the greatest kit of all time, bar none. Sorry, kits back then were just better.
9. The still of Lemond, Hinault and Guimard all sittin' on a fence in Nevada wearin' western gear.

Oh yeah, the story is pretty good to.


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## Hiro11

I can't believe this thread isn't getting more traction here. Guys look: it's a 90 minute, professionally produced cycling documentary on prime time ESPN. It's rammed full of great stories, great footage and great characters, all focused on cycling. Also note that an American is the "hero". A non-doping American. You guys should be on this like white on rice.


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## mpre53

Kathy is probably the only person in the whole world who can get a word in edgewise when Greg gets on a roll. 

I didn't see it. But that series usually repeats.


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## tvad

I thought the show was well produced, although to a non-cyclist like my wife, the drama created when Hinault promised LeMond the 1986 win, then attacked him much to LeMond's surprise, only to ultimately be beaten was not effectively conveyed. My wife was a little bored. Considering this series is targeted to sports fans who aren't familiar with the stories being told, I thought the show missed the mark as far as that audience is concerned. 

I've seen this story told a bit better. At the moment, I can't recall the film or TV special that did so...

I also thought the story of the 1990 win was poorly told. There was a lot of drama going into the final TT...the fact that LeMond had to make up 50 seconds in 15.5 miles was considered almost impossible.


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## azpeterb

I read the book and loved it but I missed the broadcast of this show. It's on again at 4AM on Saturday but we don't do the Tivo thing and I'm not waking up that early to watch it. Anyone have a link to somewhere where I can watch it online? The ESPN website isn't very helpful, or maybe it's not there yet since it just aired last night.


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## tvad

azpeterb said:


> I read the book and loved it but I missed the broadcast of this show. It's on again at 4AM on Saturday but we don't do the Tivo thing and I'm not waking up that early to watch it. Anyone have a link to somewhere where I can watch it online? The ESPN website isn't very helpful, or maybe it's not there yet since it just aired last night.


Available on Amazon.com.

I did a search on Zap2It.com and could not find an upcoming repeat.


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## mpre53

tvad said:


> I thought the show was well produced, although to a non-cyclist like my wife, the drama created when Hinault promised LeMond the 1986 win, then attacked him much to LeMond's surprise, only to ultimately be beaten was not effectively conveyed. My wife was a little bored. Considering this series is targeted to sports fans who aren't familiar with the stories being told, I thought the show missed the mark as far as that audience is concerned.
> 
> I've seen this story told a bit better. At the moment, I can't recall the film or TV special that did so...
> 
> I also thought the story of the 1990 win was poorly told. There was a lot of drama going into the final TT...the fact that LeMond had to make up 50 seconds in 15.5 miles was considered almost impossible.


That was 1989, not 1990. The podium shot, of a triumphant LeMond, and Fignon in a state of total devastation, is one of the epic photos in cycling's history.


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## azpeterb

tvad said:


> Available on Amazon.com.
> 
> I did a search on Zap2It.com and could not find an upcoming repeat.


Thanks....but I forgot to mention that I'm cheap too so I don't want to pay Amazon! 

I'll give it some time and then it will probably be easier to find the episode online somewhere.


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## tvad

mpre53 said:


> That was 1989, not 1990.


Right. Forgot to edit with the correct date before I posted.


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## burgrat

I DVR'd it. I will watch it tonight. Looking forward to it!


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## dir-t

Hiro11 said:


> I can't believe this thread isn't getting more traction here. Guys look: it's a 90 minute, professionally produced cycling documentary on prime time ESPN. It's rammed full of great stories, great footage and great characters, all focused on cycling. Also note that an American is the "hero". A non-doping American. You guys should be on this like white on rice.


Sorry, if I could watch it I might but I don't get ESPN.


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## tvad

dir-t said:


> Sorry, if I could watch it I might but I don't get ESPN.


You don't need ESPN. See post #8 above.


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## bruce_wayne

Several links here for streaming online:
Watch 30 for 30 Season 02 Episode 19 Online Free - stream 30 for 30 Season 02 Episode 19
Of course, beware of pop-ups, avoid download requests, etc., etc. - the usual hazards associated w/ online streaming.


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## azpeterb

Hiro11 said:


> A non-doping American.


Or perhaps a successful American who never got caught doping...


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## TheSame

I thought it was a really good watch. I just started following pro road cycling, so it's really cool to see some of the history. made me wish I followed the Tour de France back in the 80s / 90s. Anyone notice how old Lemond looks now? I thought he looked 10 years older than Bernard Hinault


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## Maximus_XXIV

People still rent cable tv? Huh....


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## Bigguyonbike

I am very new to cycling and didn't know the story of Lemond vs Hinault. I really enjoyed this show. My wife has never heard of lemond and she enjoyed it too. I'll watch it again. It's awesome to see a person put himself on the line and completely devoted to a goal. That's the kind of dedication and will to succeed I try to teach my children. It's very inspiring.


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## SystemShock

azpeterb said:


> Or perhaps a successful American who never got caught doping...


EPO didn't really become a big thing 'til the tail end of LeMond's career.

If he was into it, you think he'd have taken some to beat Big Mig.


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## Maximus_XXIV

SystemShock said:


> EPO didn't really become a big thing 'til the tail end of LeMond's career.
> 
> If he was into it, you think he'd have taken some to beat Big Mig.


We will never know if he did or did not. Doping has been around a lot longer than Greg Lemond. I look forward to seeing this on Prime someday.


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## SystemShock

Maximus_XXIV said:


> We will never know if he did or did not. Doping has been around a lot longer than Greg Lemond. I look forward to seeing this on Prime someday.


It's generally accepted that EPO didn't really become a thing 'til around 1990 or so, and Greg won Tours before that. He stopped winning Tours after that, so, it's not hard to figure out what likely happened, though I'll grant you we'll never know with 100.00% certainty. 

Far as seeing the vid goes, well, here ya go:


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## atpjunkie

mpre53 said:


> That was 1989, not 1990. The podium shot, of a triumphant LeMond, and Fignon in a state of total devastation, is one of the epic photos in cycling's history.


Fignon was choking on his own comments


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## velodog

SystemShock said:


> It's generally accepted that EPO didn't really become a thing 'til around 1990 or so, and Greg won Tours before that. He stopped winning Tours after that, so, it's not hard to figure out what likely happened, though I'll grant you we'll never know with 100.00% certainty.
> 
> Far as seeing the vid goes, well, here ya go:


Thanks for posting, I missed the 1st 15min.


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## PBL450

EPO sure... But that's just one little doping venue. Eddy was popped 3X. Doping varies with the sport and tech... Hell, in the last summer games a guy got nailed in trap shooting for doping and was positive for... Xanax.


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## Maximus_XXIV

SystemShock said:


> It's generally accepted that EPO didn't really become a thing 'til around 1990 or so, and Greg won Tours before that. He stopped winning Tours after that, so, it's not hard to figure out what likely happened, though I'll grant you we'll never know with 100.00% certainty.
> 
> Far as seeing the vid goes, well, here ya go:


EPO was approved in 1989 and I do not think it was even used in patients until Greg was done. 

Remember Simpson? He was taking stuff in the 70s. Regardless, we will never know.

I really appreciate the link though! I need to plug my Chrome dongle back in so I can play it on my tv.


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## SystemShock

Maximus_XXIV said:


> EPO was approved in 1989 and I do not think it was even used in patients until Greg was done.


_*The emergence of EPO* - In the *late 1980s* a recombinant drug created for people suffering from kidney failure became a substance abused by athletes seeking enhanced stamina and performance. The drug is recombinant erythropoietin, known as EPO, which was developed by the Amgen company. Recombinant EPO is a bio-manufactured copy of a hormone normally produced in the kidney and was not detectable by any test at the time.[SUP][94]
[/SUP]_
_EPO stimulates the bone marrow in order to increase red blood cell production and thus the body's ability to carry oxygen. A study of 15 Swedish athletes by the Stockholm Institute of Gymnastics and Sports found an improvement of nearly 10 percent in aerobic performance. "Average" red blood cell volume of the population at sea level is about 45% red blood cells. About 5% of the population has less than 40% red blood cell, which is defined as "anemia" and 5% of the population, including many world class athletes, have a natural red blood cells volume of 50%... 1% of the population has 54% red blood cell volume.
_
_The increased thickness of the blood (above 70% red blood cells) increases the risk of blood clotting which can block blood vessels causing a heart attack or stroke, especially in the middle of the night when the heart's rate is lowest. 

Doctors and blood specialists concluded that the drug could have been implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers between 1987 and 1991. 

One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old Dutch rider who finished 130th in the 1989 Tour de France, and died from a heart attack in February 1990.[SUP][94][/SUP] Although the autopsy did not specify the cause of death, Draaijer's wife later told the German news magazine Der Spiegel that her husband became sick after using EPO._




> I really appreciate the link though! I need to plug my Chrome dongle back in so I can play it on my tv.


It's a pretty good documentary... happy to help.


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## SystemShock

PBL450 said:


> EPO sure... But that's just one little doping venue. Eddy was popped 3X.


Performance-wise, it seems to be the one that mattered by far the most. 

And, not saying that *you* are, but a lot of the ppl I know who like to imply that Greg "must've" doped are usually Lance fans who are still bitter about their guy getting caught. 

It's a mentality, of sorts.


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## MoonHowl

Thanks for link to the vid SystemShock; enjoyed watching last night.


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## PBL450

SystemShock said:


> Performance-wise, it seems to be the one that mattered by far the most.
> 
> And, not saying that *you* are, but a lot of the ppl I know who like to imply that Greg "must've" doped are usually Lance fans who are still bitter about their guy getting caught.
> 
> It's a mentality, of sorts.


Oh no accusation at all... Not a Lance fan, but not a big hater either... Greg didn't get caught if he was dirty and that is the line, IMO. The tools and the tech are constantly evolving, Lance maybe a ridiculous extreme, but I never like the accusations. Caught is caught. Otherwise, every great rider is dirty and every big winner... Maybe they are? But I just don't think it's fair to make that kind of assumption. I'm certainly not opposed to endless debating, I just think doping is simple, you are caught or you are clean.


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## SystemShock

MoonHowl said:


> Thanks for link to the vid SystemShock; enjoyed watching last night.


No prob.


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## Maximus_XXIV

SystemShock said:


> _*The emergence of EPO* - In the *late 1980s* a recombinant drug created for people suffering from kidney failure became a substance abused by athletes seeking enhanced stamina and performance. The drug is recombinant erythropoietin, known as EPO, which was developed by the Amgen company. Recombinant EPO is a bio-manufactured copy of a hormone normally produced in the kidney and was not detectable by any test at the time.[SUP][94]
> [/SUP]_
> _EPO stimulates the bone marrow in order to increase red blood cell production and thus the body's ability to carry oxygen. A study of 15 Swedish athletes by the Stockholm Institute of Gymnastics and Sports found an improvement of nearly 10 percent in aerobic performance. "Average" red blood cell volume of the population at sea level is about 45% red blood cells. About 5% of the population has less than 40% red blood cell, which is defined as "anemia" and 5% of the population, including many world class athletes, have a natural red blood cells volume of 50%... 1% of the population has 54% red blood cell volume.
> _
> _The increased thickness of the blood (above 70% red blood cells) increases the risk of blood clotting which can block blood vessels causing a heart attack or stroke, especially in the middle of the night when the heart's rate is lowest.
> 
> Doctors and blood specialists concluded that the drug could have been implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers between 1987 and 1991.
> 
> One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old Dutch rider who finished 130th in the 1989 Tour de France, and died from a heart attack in February 1990.[SUP][94][/SUP] Although the autopsy did not specify the cause of death, Draaijer's wife later told the German news magazine Der Spiegel that her husband became sick after using EPO._
> 
> 
> 
> It's a pretty good documentary... happy to help.


Yes, I worked for Amgen for almost 15 years and am familiar with the scandals and effects of the drug. Just because the drugs of the past were not as good as current ones, does not mean they were not used. I was a Lance fan until his attitude toward former riders came out toward the end of his TdF wins. Not saying Greg was not clean. If cycling culture of the 90s was doped to the gills, why should the 80s be different? Cycling changes slowly, even now.


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## ddave12000

I watched the show and thought it was excellent. I was familiar with Greg LeMond but not the whole Hinault rivalry. I also thought Paul Koechli came across as someone making up unbelievable reasons to justify what was going on. Seemed like complete BS to me.


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## jlandry

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SystemShock again."

Somebody help a brother out?


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## High Gear

Reputation.....What is it?



jlandry said:


> "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SystemShock again."
> 
> Somebody help a brother out?


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## Trofeo Rosso

ddave12000 said:


> I watched the show and thought it was excellent. I was familiar with Greg LeMond but not the whole Hinault rivalry. I also thought Paul Koechli came across as someone making up unbelievable reasons to justify what was going on. Seemed like complete BS to me.


Koechli sounds like Gag Halfrunt from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy....

"Bernard, He's just zis guy you know...."

total cover, denial, backpedal.

Documentary said Greg was paranoid, seems like he had good reason to be...

That Fignon kept walking around years later counting 8 seconds was eerie though...


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## tone12

Very entertaining! What a look of shock on Lemond's face during the post race interview with Hinault about how the race isn't over.


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## SystemShock

Trofeo Rosso said:


> That Fignon kept walking around years later counting 8 seconds was eerie though...


I might too if I were in his shoes. Must be the worst feeling in the world to lose a Tour that way. He probably thought the final stage was all but a coronation. 

That said, he did win two TDFs prior to that, so it's not like his one chance to grab the brass ring was taken from him.


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## velodog

SystemShock said:


> I might too if I were in his shoes. Must be the worst feeling in the world to lose a Tour that way. He probably thought the final stage was all but a coronation.
> 
> That said, he did win two TDFs prior to that, so it's not like his one chance to grab the brass ring was taken from him.


He's more remembered for the Tour he lost than the two he won.

He was haunted by those 8 seconds.


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## azpeterb

tone12 said:


> Very entertaining! What a look of shock on Lemond's face during the post race interview with Hinault about how the race isn't over.


Yeah, the book described the interview but to see the video was amazing. The way his demeanor changed and by the end of the interview he was hanging his head. You could feel the life being sucked out of him by the arrogant Hinault.


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## The Weasel

tvad said:


> I thought the show was well produced, although to a non-cyclist like my wife, the drama created when Hinault promised LeMond the 1986 win, then attacked him much to LeMond's surprise, only to ultimately be beaten was not effectively conveyed. My wife was a little bored. Considering this series is targeted to sports fans who aren't familiar with the stories being told, I thought the show missed the mark as far as that audience is concerned.


Agree with this. Having seen many, if not most, of the 30 for 30s, I thought this was the worst that conveying the importance of the moment. If you are not familiar with the sport, it was just like something that happened between two dudes on bikes. I think the personalities used for Greg's side weren't really exciting (Hampston, the writer guy, even Greg himself). His differing recollections with Kathy didn't help. It could've used some more past and present cycling figures who could speak to the importance (even if they are not known to the American public). What was the press saying at the time (I don't remember if they touched on this).


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## dnice

velodog said:


> He's more remembered for the Tour he lost than the two he won.
> 
> He was haunted by those 8 seconds.


sad but true. i always think about fignon as the collapsed figure on the ground...and that 1000 yard stare on the podium. 

the man deserves a much better.


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## Jaeger99

Trofeo Rosso said:


> Koechli sounds like Gag Halfrunt from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy....
> 
> "Bernard, He's just zis guy you know...."
> 
> total cover, denial, backpedal.
> 
> Documentary said Greg was paranoid, seems like he had good reason to be...
> 
> That Fignon kept walking around years later counting 8 seconds was eerie though...


Agreed with all of that.


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## walldoggy

Just finally got around to watching this and I think I'm going to get the book. Very well done and about half way through my wife started to watch too and was riveted by the time it ended.

Is the book worth getting?


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## velodog

walldoggy said:


> Just finally got around to watching this and I think I'm going to get the book. Very well done and about half way through my wife started to watch too and was riveted by the time it ended.
> 
> Is the book worth getting?


You betcha.


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## spade2you

It was an interesting watch. Seems like his wife liked to be a "little" on the dramatic side.

Between Hinault and LeMond, one of them is a really good liar. 

I felt that there was still a lot of stuff left unsaid. LeMond commented that some guys wouldn't let reporters in their room because blood bags were hanging, yet he never really said if Hinault was one of them. Hampsten also commented about doping, but not about anything he may have seen considering a "few" of his team mates and one in particular.


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## dmanthree

A few years back, I think about 10, I met LeMond at the Cycle Loft in Burlington, MA. He was promoting his gear. I asked him what the "little devil" on his shoulder wanted to say to Fignon when they were on the podium. He just smiled...


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## Rokh Hard

if there is a "PRO" in front of it.....its doped. period.


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## superflylondon

Lemond seems almost too dumb and naive to be capable of doping. I am skeptical of most big performances in cycling (i hate that btw) but Greg just seems like he is too non committal to take dope if that makes sense. Fignon just seems like armstrong, win at all costs type A personality. 

Great video and I learned alot about that rivalry that I did not know. Watched it on netflix.


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## velodog

Rokh Hard said:


> if there is a "PRO" in front of it.....its doped. period.


Maybe, maybe not.


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## mpre53

Best line of the show:

"I promised Greg that I would help him win. I never said that I would make it easy for him to win." :wink:


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## SystemShock

mpre53 said:


> Best line of the show:
> 
> "I promised Greg that I would help him win. I never said that I would make it easy for him to win." :wink:


I wonder how much it still sticks in Hinault's craw that LeMond tore one out of his clenched claws.

I mean sure, Hinault had one of the greatest careers of all-time, he shouldn't have anything to cry about... but a guy like that never wants to give an inch, anytime, anywhere. He wants it all.


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## spade2you

SystemShock said:


> I wonder how much it still sticks in Hinault's craw that LeMond tore one out of his clenched claws.
> 
> I mean sure, Hinault had one of the greatest careers of all-time, he shouldn't have anything to cry about... but a guy like that never wants to give an inch, anytime, anywhere. He wants it all.


Why is The Badger's greed ok, yet other riders not?


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## mpre53

SystemShock said:


> I wonder how much it still sticks in Hinault's craw that LeMond tore one out of his clenched claws.
> 
> I mean sure, Hinault had one of the greatest careers of all-time, he shouldn't have anything to cry about... but a guy like that never wants to give an inch, anytime, anywhere. He wants it all.


If the what-ifs bother him at all, I think he's more bothered by what could have been in 1987 if he didn't retire.

I would bet that he's not nearly as torn up by it as Fignon was about 1989.


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## SystemShock

spade2you said:


> Why is The Badger's greed ok, yet other riders not?


That's odd... from reading my post, I would've though you'd have gotten the opposite impression, i.e. that the Badger's greed is NOT okay IMO. Did you mean to say the opposite of your post above? Or are you talking about the general opinion of the cycling world, as opposed to my opinion?

In any case, and to clarify, I pass no judgements on rightness or wrongness of the Badger's greed (though his tactics might be another story). I simply speculated as to whether he's still upset about 1986, and if so, how much. 

My guesses are, yep, and significantly. But I agree with Mpre, not to the extent Fignon carried '89 around with him.


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## spade2you

SystemShock said:


> That's odd... from reading my post, I would've though you'd have gotten the opposite impression, i.e. that the Badger's greed is NOT okay IMO. Did you mean to say the opposite of your post above? Or are you talking about the general opinion of the cycling world, as opposed to my opinion?
> 
> In any case, and to clarify, I pass no judgements on rightness or wrongness of the Badger's greed (though his tactics might be another story). I simply speculated as to whether he's still upset about 1986, and if so, how much.
> 
> My guesses are, yep, and significantly. But I agree with Mpre, not to the extent Fignon carried '89 around with him.


Perhaps I read a little too deep with "he wants it all", which _seemed_ to be positive, or so I thought.


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## Doctor Falsetti

mpre53 said:


> Best line of the show:
> 
> "I promised Greg that I would help him win. I never said that I would make it easy for him to win." :wink:


It is a great line. 

While many here are looking for black and white the reality is 1986 was shades of grey. Hinault never had a chance to win. He tried to spice things up a bit and screw with Greg. Funny when you are riding with your buddies but not in the biggest race in the world

The key person at fault here is Köchli. He was a terrible manager. His absurd revisionist history in the documentary made him look like a fool.


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## n2deep

System Shock

Thanks for posting, interesting stuff!!


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## SystemShock

n2deep said:


> System Shock
> 
> Thanks for posting, interesting stuff!!


No prob.


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## SystemShock

Pretty disgusted that this thread got shipped to the Doping forum, considering that doping is a side issue that just happened to be brought up, and the primary focus was obviously on the LeMond-Hinault rivalry. 

Doping is not even a topic of the documentary, IIRC.

So, I guess we can get any thread we want to moved to Doping now if we just bring up doping... the ultimate threadjack. Don't like a thread? Just get it shipped off to Doping, woohoo. :thumbsup:

So lamers, go to it, have fun. :frown2:


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## Bluenote

SystemShock said:


> Pretty disgusted that this thread got shipped to the Doping forum, considering that doping is a side issue that just happened to be brought up, and the primary focus was obviously on the LeMond-Hinault rivalry.
> 
> Doping is not even a topic of the documentary, IIRC.
> 
> So, I guess we can get any thread we want to moved to Doping now if we just bring up doping... the ultimate threadjack. Don't like a thread? Just get it shipped off to Doping, woohoo. :thumbsup:
> 
> So lamers, go to it, have fun. :frown2:


So what happens if you bring up doping in a PO thread?

Or gun control in a doping thread?

Is that like strapping a piece of buttered toast on the back of a cat?

(No cats were hurt in the making of this post).


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## SystemShock

Bluenote said:


> So what happens if you bring up doping in a PO thread?
> 
> Or gun control in a doping thread?


At some point, the RBR servers implode.

OH wait, they do that already.


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## velodog

*1986 Coors Classic*

Good video with a coupla soundbites from LeMond and Hinault





 <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/26034935">1986 Coors International Bicycle Classic</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/williamscommgroup">Marc Williams</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>


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## burgrat

velodog said:


> Good video with a coupla soundbites from LeMond and Hinault
> 
> 1986 Coors International Bicycle Classic from Marc Williams on Vimeo.


That brings back memories. I was 16 yrs. old and watched the Reno road race and Criterium. Even got Davis Phinney's autograph. It was awesome!


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## jamz50

This story was covered in the mid 2000s when OLN had a series entitled "Fearless." It even featured interviews with Guimard and Bauer. I've checked Youtube and apparently no one has ever uploaded it.


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## Horze

SystemShock said:


> It's generally accepted that EPO didn't really become a thing 'til around 1990 or so, and Greg won Tours before that. He stopped winning Tours after that, so, it's not hard to figure out what likely happened, though I'll grant you we'll never know with 100.00% certainty.
> 
> Far as seeing the vid goes, well, here ya go:



100.00% certainty. No measure of 100.01% certainty then?
OK fair enough. Perhaps you mean the certainly is 98.86% or 98.89%. That's a fine grain you appear to be sowing.


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## SystemShock

Horze said:


> 100.00% certainty. No measure of 100.01% certainty then?
> OK fair enough. Perhaps you mean the certainly is 98.86% or 98.89%. That's a fine grain you appear to be sowing.


You can't really b!tch about the decimal places when the person is saying that we CAN'T know with 100.00% certainty.

If I had said, "I'm 100.00% certain!", THEN you can b!tch, because I'm then proclaiming absolute certainty, not significant UNcertainty.

No, don't thank me for helping you figure this out... your gratitude is thanks enough.


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## Horze

I'm *****ing that you exist.

Pardon the pun.










I have a better idea for you. Go to the other forum called Weightweenies. You'll be most welcome there amongst the doggy likes of you.


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## SystemShock

Horze said:


> I'm *****ing that you exist.
> 
> Pardon the pun.
> 
> I have a better idea for you. Go to the other forum called Weightweenies. You'll be most welcome there amongst the doggy likes of you.



.....


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## mpre53

Kind of off topic, but not totally, as another set of great rivals repaired burned bridges before it was too late.


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## SystemShock

mpre53 said:


> View attachment 301111
> 
> 
> Kind of off topic, but not totally, as another set of great rivals repaired burned bridges before it was too late.


Well, up until Greg finished the ride eight seconds ahead of Laurent again. Then it all went to hell.


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## spade2you

As someone with OCD, I could see how that would have driven Fignon crazy for the rest of his life.


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## mpre53

SystemShock said:


> Well, up until Greg finished the ride eight seconds ahead of Laurent again. Then it all went to hell.


I dunno. Looks like The Professor lost the ponytail for this go round.


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## Horze

LOL. You peeps are nasty.


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## Local Hero




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## azpeterb

spade2you said:


> As someone with OCD, I could see how that would have driven Fignon crazy for the rest of his life.


But it did have its advantages too. Instead of throwing away food that had touched the floor for 5 seconds, Fignon allowed for 8 seconds before tossing it.


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## SystemShock

Local Hero said:


>



Does J. Jonah Jameson's Hitler 'stash bother anyone else? 

I mean, who else in 'merica would still be rocking that thing? Yechhh.


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