# Motobecane warranty sucks



## darklyte27

https://www.motobecane.com/warranty001.html

I have a motobecane immortal force 2009 which is just a year old.
while riding yesterday, going up hill about 5 mph yes im slow, the rear dropout broke off, derailleur fell off as well and i had to quickly stop and put a foot down as stumbled and I almost fell over.

I thought the warranty would cover the frame as it said lifetime warranty on frames!
after sending pictures to the mfg, they want 400+ shipping for a black 2010 frame with NO FORK! Plus they want me to saw off the rear left non drive side of the frame and send it back to them!! WTF is this?!!

can anyone help? what can i do?... 400 is 1/4 the cost of the bike from bikesdirect.com


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## ukbloke

The bikesdirect.com page claims that the Immortal frames have a replaceable derailleur hanger:

"2.7 Pound Monocoque High Modulus Carbon Fiber with replaceable rear derailleur hanger, 2x H2O bosses (weight is for 50cm bare frame per manufacturer)"

You can buy them here for $21. In your picture I see one hex bolt connecting the hanger to the seat stay, but it looks like it is bonded into the chain stay. You may need to get a reputable carbon frame repair company to install the new hanger for you.

You could also try bikesdirect.com's support email directly to see if they will help you out, or PM to bikesdirect on this web site. I have had good luck with them on 2 post-sales support issues, one small and one big, and both were resolved to my satisfaction.

Do you think that it failed because of a manufacturing defect, or did something else happen to cause the failure? I'd look for any signs that the RD went into the spokes or evidence that something went into the cassette and jammed it up.


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## stevesbike

If you read their warranty carefully, it states the only thing that is covered by free replacement is non-carbon parts. Carbon parts (including frames) are covered by a cost-replacement program. They say it's the best warranty in the industry, but this is market weasel wording (in fact for frames it's a lousy warranty).

Looks like you're stuck having to pay a replacement cost - I'd switch to a new company and start a campaign against them for such a crummy warranty...


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## stevesbike

I guess you could check with a lawyer to see if there's some recourse over them making what appears to be a false (and misleading claim): "best warranty in the industry" which is false since many companies have FREE lifetime replacement...


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## darklyte27

Its more than just the derailleur hanger thats broken, its where the screw hole that snapped. rest of the frame is fine, but yea.. i think ill go with another brand.

Is Kestrell ok?
Im not rich, actually unemployed, 3 year old TV just broke and it costs 350$ to fix, while a new tv is 450$... whats the world coming to!!

PS the RD only went into the spokes because its hanging by the chain and cable which probably pulled it in..

also if you look at the design, its very thin where the screw is holding the hanger, it broke at the weakest link..


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## DIRT BOY

darklyte27 said:


> https://www.motobecane.com/warranty001.html
> 
> I have a motobecane immortal force 2009 which is just a year old.
> while riding yesterday, going up hill about 5 mph yes im slow, the rear dropout broke off, derailleur fell off as well and i had to quickly stop and put a foot down as I almost fell over.
> 
> I thought the warranty would cover the frame as it said lifetime warranty on frames!
> after sending pictures to the mfg, they want 400+ shipping for a black 2010 frame with NO FORK! Plus they want me to saw off the rear left non drive side of the frame and send it back to them!! WTF is this?!!
> 
> can anyone help? what can i do?... 400 is 1/4 the cost of the bike from bikesdirect.com


UNLESS i AM READING THERE WARRANTY WORNG, THEY DO not REPLACE THE FRAME FOR FREE:










IMO< that is a CRAPPY warranty. You pay for thier defects?

Good riddance!


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## darklyte27

Thanks guys, as I am not the only one that feels this company blows..

Time to shop for a new bike.. any brand suggestions? I just need a new frame and fork..


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## DIRT BOY

stevesbike said:


> I guess you could check with a lawyer to see if there's some recourse over them making what appears to be a false (and misleading claim): "best warranty in the industry" which is false since many companies have FREE lifetime replacement...


I agree. If they can't back up there stuff, they are DONE!


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## DIRT BOY

darklyte27 said:


> Thanks guys, as I am not the only one that feels this company blows..
> 
> Time to shop for a new bike.. any brand suggestions? I just need a new frame and fork..


Blue Competition


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## stevesbike

would be useful to find out whether you have any recourse under the warranty law. I'd at least write a letter to Velonews, Bob Mionske etc asking what rights consumers have re frame defects.


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## FatTireFred

they have "authorized dealers"?


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## bikesdirect

darklyte27 said:


> Thanks guys, as I am not the only one that feels this company blows..
> 
> Time to shop for a new bike.. any brand suggestions? I just need a new frame and fork..



Hi

I will PM you for details

But I think most industry types seeing this would ask; what happened here? Did the frame just break without any impack at all - if so, that is beyond odd

The reason we treat CF warranty differently than metal parts is the same reason Trek does - and many sellers. CF is harder to evaluate when you see fractures

Of course, we go over and beyond what is called for under warranty when we see an actual defect. The issue is sometimes what is an actual defect. 

I feel it is fair to state what a warranty covers up front; and we have done that. But in cases where the customer will work with us; we always go over board to make the customer happy.

I can tell by looking at this bike for 2 minutes if the frame was defect; I think most people in the industry can too.

Please return my PM

Thanks

Mike


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## pmf

See what the Bikes Direct guy can do for you. Sounds like he's being reasonable. If it really is $400 for a frame replacement, decide if you want another one or something else. One thing these companies won't cover is the cost of transferring the components on the trashed bike to the new frame.


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## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> Hi
> 
> I will PM you for details
> 
> But I think most industry types seeing this would ask; what happened here? Did the frame just break without any impack at all - if so, that is beyond odd
> 
> The reason we treat CF warranty differently than metal parts is the same reason Trek does - and many sellers. CF is harder to evaluate when you see fractures
> 
> Of course, we go over and beyond what is called for under warranty when we see an actual defect. The issue is sometimes what is an actual defect.
> 
> I feel it is fair to state what a warranty covers up front; and we have done that. But in cases where the customer will work with us; we always go over board to make the customer happy.
> 
> I can tell by looking at this bike for 2 minutes if the frame was defect; I think most people in the industry can too.
> 
> Please return my PM
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Mike


That's great Mike. But that warranty for CF frames with the way it is written out is terrible! T claim sonone must pay for a warranty replacement?

If I saw this when I was thinking of buying a CF frame form BD, I would move on to another brand. Who wants top buy and find out later what BD and Moto will do.


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## darklyte27

I just saw his post and replied to his PM. 
I am not directing my emotions to bikesdirect, it was towards motobecanes response.


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## bikesdirect

ukbloke said:


> The bikesdirect.com page claims that the Immortal frames have a replaceable derailleur hanger:
> 
> "2.7 Pound Monocoque High Modulus Carbon Fiber with replaceable rear derailleur hanger, 2x H2O bosses (weight is for 50cm bare frame per manufacturer)"
> 
> You can buy them here for $21. In your picture I see one hex bolt connecting the hanger to the seat stay, but it looks like it is bonded into the chain stay. You may need to get a reputable carbon frame repair company to install the new hanger for you.
> 
> You could also try bikesdirect.com's support email directly to see if they will help you out, or PM to bikesdirect on this web site. I have had good luck with them on 2 post-sales support issues, one small and one big, and both were resolved to my satisfaction.
> 
> *Do you think that it failed because of a manufacturing defect, or did something else happen to cause the failure? I'd look for any signs that the RD went into the spokes or evidence that something went into the cassette and jammed it up.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thank you for pointing this out. Seeing frames broken in this manner is common on all brands. I have seen thousands. This would be a very odd point for a defect to occur at; Impacts on read der; mis-adjusted der that results in over shifts, and even bent hanger from leaning bike on something are certainly the cause in over 99% of cases. But if an actual defect ever occurs at this point; the frame factory surely wants to see it.
> 
> I will get personally envolved in this case if the OP wishes and as always go beyond what the warranty calls for.


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## nealric

> I guess you could check with a lawyer to see if there's some recourse over them making what appears to be a false (and misleading claim): "best warranty in the industry" which is false since many companies have FREE lifetime replacement...


"Best warranty in the industry" is not an objectively verifiable true/false fact. It's an opinion. Chevy is free to say the Aveo is the best car in the world even if 999/1000 people disagree. What Chevy can't say is that the Aveo goes 0-60 in 3.5 seconds when it clearly does not.


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## RHankey

darklyte27 said:


> http://www.motobecane.com/warranty001.html
> 
> I have a motobecane immortal force 2009 which is just a year old.
> while riding yesterday, going up hill about 5 mph yes im slow, the rear dropout broke off, derailleur fell off as well and i had to quickly stop and put a foot down as I almost fell over.
> 
> I thought the warranty would cover the frame as it said lifetime warranty on frames!
> after sending pictures to the mfg, they want 400+ shipping for a black 2010 frame with NO FORK! Plus they want me to saw off the rear left non drive side of the frame and send it back to them!! WTF is this?!!
> 
> can anyone help? what can i do?... 400 is 1/4 the cost of the bike from bikesdirect.com


Not to pick sides, but based on what I'm seeing in those pictures, I don't think this is a frame defect issue. Accept the crash replacement option and be happy.

It appears you have torn the dropout (not replaceable) and the hanger (replaceable) in half. I say torn, as in one of the pictures, the hanger looks twisted and bent. In the same picture, I also see dings to the outer edge of the derailer which could have resulted from laying the bike down on the pavement. What ever dinged the derailer could have easily been what bent the derailer hanger, which in turn sets it up to go into the spokes when you are in your biggest cog (going up a hill).


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## stevesbike

darklyte27 said:


> I just saw his post and replied to his PM.
> I am not directing my emotions to bikesdirect, it was towards motobecanes response.


you should know that bikesdirect is motobecane. The real motobecane went bankrupt in 1981. Motobecane USA has no relation to the French company.

Bikesdirect should change its warranty language. The phrase "best warranty in the industry" is misleading. I'm sending a letter of complaint to the FTC about it. It's gulling to have what is essentially a crash replacement program as a warranty - especially since you're still making a profit charging $400 for a frame plus shipping. I'll bet your cost is under $200 for that frame.

It's also irritating to see the first reaction from bikesdirect is to raise suspicion against the owner. The drive-side rear dropout is a structurally weak part of the bike to begin with and there's nothing infeasible about the owner's account.


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## 20sMotoSpirit

Its not like replacing these types of parts are a new concept. Any bike shop will have the same issues with Trek, Specialized, Giant..etc. if it is proven to be a mfg defect, then they might gove you a good deal on a replacement frame... like BD. But its is NEVER FREE. I know this from doing warranty claims. The bike shop and company will charge for the will give you a frame credit - similar to the discount that moto give you and in addition to this, charge for shipping, reassembly, and return of the broken item.

In recent years the new policy is not to replace the frame, but to give a bigger discount on the level of bike you buy to replace the existing one
(not real numbers, but you will get the idea)
IE - for crash replacement
2003 trek 5900 with DA 9x3 = about $500 for a new 2010 5 series madone
or $720 on a new 2010 6 series madone. " more you buy - more you save"

This way companies do not have to give people newer frames for the older parts, they give them an incentive to upgrade.

also - IMO, If you cannot afford to replace your frame material - you should not be riding it.
Just think about it..but these are my two cents on the issue.


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## darklyte27

So after speaking with Mike for about 50 minutes he wants me to send the bike back for them to look at it on his dime.

As for the dings, dings happen, you cant magically step off the bike when the bike breaks unexpectly on you when you are clipped in.
I was lucky to have unclipped my right foot and step to the right which is when it probably got dinged.
Heck when I bought the bike, the paint job was dinged here and there so they gave me a 25$ credit.

As for the warranty, its understandable if i totally thrashed the bike that I would be at fault and pay for a new frame if i choose to go that route. but for them to want 400+ shipping doesnt seem like a warranty or assume I was at fault.

Any way either way im out of a bike for now.


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## stevesbike

20sMotoSpirit said:


> Its not like replacing these types of parts are a new concept. Any bike shop will have the same issues with Trek, Specialized, Giant..etc. if it is proven to be a mfg defect, then they might gove you a good deal on a replacement frame... like BD. But its is NEVER FREE. I know this from doing warranty claims. The bike shop and company will charge for the will give you a frame credit - similar to the discount that moto give you and in addition to this, charge for shipping, reassembly, and return of the broken item.
> 
> In recent years the new policy is not to replace the frame, but to give a bigger discount on the level of bike you buy to replace the existing one
> (not real numbers, but you will get the idea)
> IE - for crash replacement
> 2003 trek 5900 with DA 9x3 = about $500 for a new 2010 5 series madone
> or $720 on a new 2010 6 series madone. " more you buy - more you save"
> 
> This way companies do not have to give people newer frames for the older parts, they give them an incentive to upgrade.
> 
> also - IMO, If you cannot afford to replace your frame material - you should not be riding it.
> Just think about it..but these are my two cents on the issue.


what are you talking about? The standard in the industry is to replace FOR FREE a defective frame, typically to the original owner. The major variation is the lifespan of the warranty, ranging from a few years to lifetime. What you are describing is crash replacement programs.


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## RHankey

darklyte27 said:


> So after speaking with Mike for about 50 minutes he wants me to send the bike back for them to look at it on his dime.
> 
> As for the dings, dings happen, you cant magically step off the bike when the bike breaks unexpectly on you when you are clipped in.
> I was lucky to have unclipped my right foot and step to the right which is when it probably got dinged.
> Heck when I bought the bike, the paint job was dinged here and there so they gave me a 25$ credit.
> 
> As for the warranty, its understandable if i totally thrashed the bike that I would be at fault and pay for a new frame if i choose to go that route. but for them to want 400+ shipping doesnt seem like a warranty or assume I was at fault.
> 
> Any way either way im out of a bike for now.


Ok, let's say the ding to the derailer was from falling over after the disaster (which you did not previously mention), that still does not explain how the hanger and drop out appear to have been bent and torn from the frame. A hanger gets bent from only a few causes, such as:

Banging the derailer into something
Attempting to force a rear shift into an easier gear while under heavy pedal load
Derailer limit screws not set correctly, allowing cage to connect with spokes

If the hanger simply sheared off (without bending), you'd probalby have a clear case of frame defect.

On the other hand, perhaps MB could do a better job designing the dropout/hanger. the value of a replaceable hanger is somewhat dubious if there it is likely going to break the dropout too..


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## The Green Hour

RHankey said:


> Not to pick sides, but based on what I'm seeing in those pictures, I don't think this is a frame defect issue. Accept the crash replacement option and be happy.
> 
> It appears you have torn the dropout (not replaceable) and the hanger (replaceable) in half. I say torn, as in one of the pictures, the hanger looks twisted and bent. In the same picture, I also see dings to the outer edge of the derailer which could have resulted from laying the bike down on the pavement. What ever dinged the derailer could have easily been what bent the derailer hanger, which in turn sets it up to go into the spokes when you are in your biggest cog (going up a hill).


I agree. It looks like the bike was crashed....

Without knowing what exactly happened here, it would be rare for the type of bending of the derailleur with the scrapes on the skewer and the rear of the seatstay from a "just riding along" scenario.

Maybe BD can get this replaced at a more reasonable cost.


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## Reynolds531

for goodness sakes, this is why bikes should be made of steel for everyone who isn't rich or sponsored.


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## stevesbike

if you want to speculate about causes you also need to take into account what a poorly designed dropout that is - the second (middle) bolt is in a terrible position. Look how little material is on either side of it. It is in the worst possible position. If either second beside that bolt failed, it would have caused the twisting seen in the pics. 

Also, the derailleur into the wheel scenario is inconsistent with no sign of damage in the spokes.

The issue of carbon is a red herring here - the section is alloy!


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## darklyte27

Here are some measurements with calipers and show this weak point.
But anyways, as you can see it cracked where the screw goes, and in my observation, there isnt much material to hold the derailleur hanger and can lead to failure.

maybe it was just bad engineering? Or maybe I just got a Lemon.. It happens.. When I bought a new car it had a bad soleniod after a month and it was replaced.


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## darklyte27

stevesbike said:


> if you want to speculate about causes you also need to take into account what a poorly designed dropout that is - the second (middle) bolt is in a terrible position. Look how little material is on either side of it. It is in the worst possible position. If either second beside that bolt failed, it would have caused the twisting seen in the pics.
> 
> Also, the derailleur into the wheel scenario is inconsistent with no sign of damage in the spokes.
> 
> The issue of carbon is a red herring here - the section is alloy!


Thank you, someone with some common sense sees what i see.


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## FatTireFred

stevesbike said:


> I'll bet your cost is under $200 for that frame.




well under, more like 50-75


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## FatTireFred

Reynolds531 said:


> for goodness sakes, this is why bikes should be made of steel for everyone who isn't rich or sponsored.




please elaborate


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## bikesdirect

DIRT BOY said:


> That's great Mike. But that warranty for CF frames with the way it is written out is terrible! T claim sonone must pay for a warranty replacement?
> 
> If I saw this when I was thinking of buying a CF frame form BD, I would move on to another brand. Who wants top buy and find out later what BD and Moto will do.



CF frames with all companies are an issue
Please read the Trek warranty and note statements like "Assessing any damage done to a carbon fiber part requires more experience than is needed to inspect metal parts. If you crash or impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there are no indications of damage."

The problem is it is very hard if not impossable in most cases to ID a defect; in fact, I am unsure if I have ever seen one on any brand. But on the other hand customers are nervous about CF frames and there are many more defect claims on CF than AL, STL, or Ti -- this is true for all brands and factories.

So there are a lot of 'no fault' replacements. Some customers will just say "it fell on a coffe table and that little crack has me freaked out" -- some customers will say "I was just riding along and then I saw a little crack and it has me freaked out" -- Much different than Metal frames; where we know AL wears out in about 10 years and Steel and Ti should never fail unless crashed.

Therefore, we have moved to a system on CF that we felt was fair to everyone {remember, I do not pay for warranty issues - factories and customers do}

However, the frame warranty question is so hard for my staff to handle that I am going to take over all communication on frame warranty claims {we have about 1 or 2 a month and my staff always responses with the exact details of the stated warranty; I will handle by calling the customer}

The truth is; I like carbon fiber road bikes; but I will not make CF ATB or cyclo cross bikes even though they would sell {the reason should be clear}. But like everyone; my experience with CF is limited to the last decade or so. When I see a frame [let's say from ADK or Martec or Topkey} with little cracks on the chain stay; what do I call that? If it is a week old? If it is a year old? If it is a decade old? If it is a decade old and its AL I will call it worn out; if it Steel or Ti - I'll call it a defect.

The truth is:
(1) I do not want any customer to pay a dime on any defect {that is why I have never in 30 years charged the allowed labor of any brands warranty} 
(2) I do not want other customers to pay extra for the expense of repairing non-defects under warranty. {which is the end result on false JRA claims - same as false insurance claims}
_This is a difficult balancing act that I should have never ask my staff to make the judgements on._

If anyone does not see that I am trying to do the right thing warranty {as I have since day 1}; they are not looking at all sides of the complicated issue.

Bottom line to me is: no customer should pay a cent of parts or labor on any true defect {even though ours and ALL bicycle warranties exclude labor}. The issue is always spotting the true defect.


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## stevesbike

but it's an alloy dropout - the carbon issue is a total red herring.


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## bikesdirect

stevesbike said:


> you should know that bikesdirect is motobecane. The real motobecane went bankrupt in 1981. Motobecane USA has no relation to the French company.
> 
> Bikesdirect should change its warranty language. The phrase "best warranty in the industry" is misleading. I'm sending a letter of complaint to the FTC about it. It's gulling to have what is essentially a crash replacement program as a warranty - especially since you're still making a profit charging $400 for a frame plus shipping. *I'll bet your cost is under $200 for that frame.*
> It's also irritating to see the first reaction from bikesdirect is to raise suspicion against the owner. The drive-side rear dropout is a structurally weak part of the bike to begin with and there's nothing infeasible about the owner's account.


As many people know; I like to let forum members know what frames cost; and I think with any amount of research anyone can find this out

OE cost is without duty, boxing, shipping, etc
All of us that spec bikes use the same factories to build frames and pay basicly the same amounts per frame.

AL frames are $20 to $40 {about $70 to $80 with CF stays}

CF frames are about $225 to $240 

Ti frames are about $600 [a bit less from China - but we do not use those]

Steel frames are like all over the place. $15 for hi-ten; $35 to $45 for 4130; high zoot tubing +++; lugs ++++++; and up to crazy 953 for $600

So cost of $400 landed is more like a CF frameset [with fork] for a nice one out of Taiwan; can drop about $50 by bringing from China


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## stevesbike

Mike, I think many of us would be less inclined to give you a hard time if you were just more straightforward with your business model - the warranty is just another example of elements of the business model that appear like they are designed to mislead consumers. 

1. Your warranty isn't "the best in the industry." You're probably aware that Trek's tagline on their warranty page is "the best warranty in the industry." They offer a lifetime warranty (free replacement). You appear to have essentially no warranty for defective frames. You have a no fault replacement in which you lose no money (and likely make a bit - he was quoted $400 + shipping frame without fork). 

2. As was the case with this customer, he was unaware of the relationship between bikesdirect and motobecane - the vintage picture and other allusions to Motobecane etc are intended to suggest relationships that don't exist. Same with the dealers page and the high MSRP listed on the motobecane website. Where can one actually purchase the bikes for MSRP? The whole save big over list price angle is pretty transparent with some research. 

There's lots of companies (like pedalforce and neuvation) doing good business with a straightforward business model - sourcing good bikes and selling them at a good price. Do you really need all the other elements?


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## Kuma601

Ouch...have seen other pics of breakage like that with that particular designed dropout. As you measured, there is not much material there. Hope this is resolves smoothly and you are back on the road.


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## darklyte27

I see that some of you are saying im a liar that I crashed. Just because I didnt state every single detail that happened, so that doesnt not mean it didnt happen.

again, NO I did NOT crash, 

as I was pedaling all of a sudden the pedal gave way due to the derailer coming off.
as I quickly looked down i first had thought the chain had came off only, but saw the derailur hanging which caused me to come to a stop and unclip my right foot because my forward motion had came to a stop.
Note the road is not 100% flat, its up hill and the sides curve for water to flow into the drainage ditch.

That had also caused me to stumble with the left foot still clipped into the pedal.

Maybe your definition of a crash is different. I think of a crash where you go head over heels or in a fashion where the frame would get torn up where you get bumps scrapes bleeding and bruises etc. In my incident yesterday, the bike did land on its right side which caused the light dings and scrapes. At which sometime then my left foot unclipped.
hopefully this covers what happened..

If you even want to, you can see the location where I was riding.
http://maps.google.com/ and search bear creek road orinda ca


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## nealric

> Mike, I think many of us would be less inclined to give you a hard time if you were just more straightforward with your business model - the warranty is just another example of elements of the business model that appear like they are designed to mislead consumers.


 I really don't understand the vitriol BD creates. Honestly, anyone who bothers to do 5 minutes of due diligence before their purchase of a BD bike knows what they are getting.

Treks break too, and I guarantee someone has been righteously angered by a warranty claim denial from them. But when it happens, it never seems to create an internet flamewar.


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## gregwjs

B/C The captain of trek doesn't have the guts to post here. :2cents:


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## chuckice

gregwjs said:


> B/C The captain of trek doesn't have the guts to post here. :2cents:


ROFLZ.


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## Richard.Howe

Guys -- policy was clear when the bike was purchased. If you don't like the policy, don't buy the bike.


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## David Loving

Looks to me like you just broke it somehow. It's hard to see how you're just riding along and next thing you know it looks like that. Nothing personal now; that's just how it looks to me without all the conversation.


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## Reynolds531

FatTireFred said:


> please elaborate


 forged steel dropouts. Chainstays that aren't destroyed by chainsuck. Seatstays that don't break when the bike falls over.

The steel Specialized Allez reviewed in another thread is a better frame for most people than CF or weight weenie Al at any price.


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## RHankey

darklyte27 said:


> I see that some of you are saying im a liar that I crashed. Just because I didnt state every single detail that happened, so that doesnt not mean it didnt happen.
> 
> again, NO I did NOT crash,
> 
> as I was pedaling all of a sudden the pedal gave way due to the derailer coming off.
> as I quickly looked down i first had thought the chain had came off only, but saw the derailur hanging which caused me to come to a stop and unclip my right foot because my forward motion had came to a stop.
> Note the road is not 100% flat, its up hill and the sides curve for water to flow into the drainage ditch.
> 
> That had also caused me to stumble with the left foot still clipped into the pedal.
> 
> Maybe your definition of a crash is different. I think of a crash where you go head over heels or in a fashion where the frame would get torn up where you get bumps scrapes bleeding and bruises etc. In my incident yesterday, the bike did land on its right side which caused the light dings and scrapes. At which sometime then my left foot unclipped.
> hopefully this covers what happened..
> 
> If you even want to, you can see the location where I was riding.
> http://maps.google.com/ and search bear creek road orinda ca


I'm not sure where anyone is accusing you of being a liar. I just don't think enough of the material facts have been disclosed, as a hanger and drop out don't just fall off a bike from JRA. Nor does a hanger bend and get torn from a frame from simply JRA. These are the sorts of things that bend or tear off a hanger:

chain suck
something getting caught up in the drivetrain
chain not sized correctly
forcing a shift to a larger cog while under heavy pedal loading
incorrectly adjusted limit screws, or
banging the derailer against something
None of the above are the fault of a frame. If the hanger simply sheared off due to some sort of defect, it would not have bent.

That said, their hanger/dropout design appears a little suspect no matter what their design intent was. But thier warranty doesn't appear to say anything about design defects.

Unless they changed the warranty policy retroactively since you bought your frame, I'm not sure how you can be complaining now that their "warranty sucks". Presumably their advertised warranty was acceptable to you when you were evaluting what frame to buy? You chose a frame with esentially no warranty, presumably because the price was right, rolled the dice, and have lost the bet. Oh well.

Given that hangers don't simply fall off, and that yours is bent with signs that it was torn off the frame, they have probably been more generous than their warranty stipulates in offering you a crash replacement option. The broken part is not CF, so the 'crash replacement' paragraph doesn't apply. The broken part is bent (which could not have happened as a result of the failure), which according to the third paragraph means they could tell you to pound dirt.

Good luck, and hopefully you end up with a mutually acceptable outcome.


----------



## darklyte27

"Not to pick sides, but based on what I'm seeing in those pictures, I don't think this is a frame defect issue. Accept the crash replacement option and be happy."

Would you just accept it and fork up 450$ just like that?
Im unemployed so it isnt that easy..

but anyways, I had NO idea motobecane and bikesdirect.com were the same..

Mike of bikesdirect.com, I called up 3 shops this morning and so far they dont have any boxes, either all crushed or gone. Another bike shop said they are building some bikes later today, he said 12 or 1 so I can get one then. Hopefully UPS doesnt come before that.

thanks

Mike


----------



## bikesdirect

darklyte27 said:


> "Not to pick sides, but based on what I'm seeing in those pictures, I don't think this is a frame defect issue. Accept the crash replacement option and be happy."
> 
> Would you just accept it and fork up 450$ just like that?
> Im unemployed so it isnt that easy..
> 
> but anyways, I had NO idea motobecane and bikesdirect.com were the same..
> 
> Mike of bikesdirect.com, I called up 3 shops this morning and so far they dont have any boxes, either all crushed or gone. Another bike shop said they are building some bikes later today, he said 12 or 1 so I can get one then. Hopefully UPS doesnt come before that.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Mike



Mike

I am kinda surprised; as shops in my area have boxes lying around all the time. 
In fact, we pay to have them hualed off.
So we always give any customers who wants one as many as they like

I am sure some shop in your area will have boxes to give away

Let me know if you can not find one

Mike


----------



## The Green Hour

nealric said:


> I really don't understand the vitriol BD creates. Honestly, anyone who bothers to do 5 minutes of due diligence before their purchase of a BD bike knows what they are getting.
> 
> Treks break too, and I guarantee someone has been righteously angered by a warranty claim denial from them. But when it happens, it never seems to create an internet flamewar.


A few years back when the OCLV 5200's were out, they had a number of cracking issues at the BB. The OCLV was commonly known as "Often Cracked Low Value". Now one broken hanger on a pricepoint CF frame and BD is the evil empire... 

Darklyte27, the intention was not to call you a liar. The internet forums are loaded with JRA failures that end up have a second story behind it. Yours may be a freak accident, but it does "seem" odd on our end as "over the net" viewers ( please take that into account). As I said before, I hope that Mike at BD can help to get you back on the road.:thumbsup:


----------



## darklyte27

Im sure Mike will, Im sure I sent a few sales his way as well when people had never seen or heard of motobecane and i told them where to get one. 

But you also have to take into account for your own words.


----------



## stevesbike

to rhankey, statements like "If the hanger simply sheared off due to some sort of defect, it would not have bent" are simply false. A failure mode in which you get the twisted hanger seen in one of the pics is straightforward. Look at the dropout/hanger design. A crack develops on one side of the middle bolt section, It then fails. What happens next? The pedaling action will result in a twisting action on the hanger (because it is no longer counteracted by the failed structure), resulting in the failure of the other side of the dropout. The result is a complete break AND a twisted hanger.

There's some simple remedies re warranties a company should figure out - simply assume some failure rate and built this into the price of your frames (if the failure rate is only a few percent this is a marginal cost) and then replace frames without subjecting customers to a n interrogation. Each time you do you get a big payback in terms of building customer loyalty. If you want to contain the costs, limit the term of the warranty - both Merckx and Colnago offer only 2 year warranties and they seem to be doing OK.


----------



## RHankey

stevesbike said:


> to rhankey, statements like "If the hanger simply sheared off due to some sort of defect, it would not have bent" are simply false. A failure mode in which you get the twisted hanger seen in one of the pics is straightforward. Look at the dropout/hanger design. A crack develops on one side of the middle bolt section, It then fails. What happens next? The pedaling action will result in a twisting action on the hanger (because it is no longer counteracted by the failed structure), resulting in the failure of the other side of the dropout. The result is a complete break AND a twisted hanger.


Your theory sounds all fine until you look at the pictures and see where the parts broke, and where they bent. They did npt bend and break in the smae area which would support your suggestion. The hanger and to a lesser degree the dropout, appeare to have bent/twisted about 1/2" below the break. Since roughly half the area where the hanger and dropout broke falls between the wheel axle and skewer, the only opportunity for this area to bend would have been if the hanger was torn off towards the rear of the bike, which is opposite to the normal forces.

Interestingly, it would appear the OP has chosen to remove the most incriminating picture showing the bent hanger the best.



stevesbike said:


> There's some simple remedies re warranties a company should figure out - simply assume some failure rate and built this into the price of your frames (if the failure rate is only a few percent this is a marginal cost) and then replace frames without subjecting customers to a n interrogation. Each time you do you get a big payback in terms of building customer loyalty. If you want to contain the costs, limit the term of the warranty - both Merckx and Colnago offer only 2 year warranties and they seem to be doing OK.


No matter what a warranty says there is always going to be someone whining after the fact that they were left out in the cold. Motobecane/BD is seemingly doing fine with their advertised warranty too. It might be a bit of a stretch to compare Motobecane/BD's to that of a Merckx/Colnago, as they reach out to opposite ends of the spectrum. At the end of the day, the consumer gets to choose with their wallet whether Motobecane's frames and warranty are worthwhile.

The OP has admitted that he is expecting more out of the warranty because he is unemployed. A warranty is not meant to be unemployment insurance, or I got in over my head with too fancy a bike for my budget insurance.

Don't get me wrong, if I saw Motebecane's warranty for that of a Colnago/Merckx or the frame maker I ride, I would laugh, and buy from someone else. For a Motebecane/BD price point frame, their warranty seems fine, as I could buy multiple BD frames for the price of one Colnago frame.


----------



## stevesbike

the reason I have some sympathy for the OP is that he was under the impression he was buying a Motobecane that was like a Colnago or Merckx and didn't realize the brand was just a sticker that is slapped on a generic frame. He also did not realize Motobecane is just a front for bikesdirect. The warranty further reinforces this misleading characterization of the frame ("the highest quality bicycles available and back them up with the best warranty in the industry'). Obviously a consumer should be informed, but my opinion is that this company intentionally aims to attract naive bicycle consumers to make them believe they are buying something they are not (just look at the Bottecchia USA website and all the misleading references to Greg Lemond and real Bottecchias).

As for the breakage, a structure does not have to bend and break in the same area - in fact it typically will not in structures like this. It will break in the weakest area, which is consistent with this case, especially considering how little material is on either side of that middle bolt area.


----------



## bikesdirect

stevesbike said:


> Obviously a consumer should be informed, but my opinion is that this company intentionally aims to attract naive bicycle consumers to make them believe they are buying something they are not (just look at the Bottecchia USA website and all the misleading references to Greg Lemond and real Bottecchias).
> 
> .


Steve

It is good to post informed opinions or facts
However, you are way off base on Bottecchia
Your statement about Bottecchias is no more true than saying a Raleigh sold in the USA is not real; a Bianchi made in Taiwan is not a real Bianchi, Cannondales now that they are under new ownership and made in China are not real.

I do not know what web site you are referring to; but a Bottecchia built under license agreement is as real as any other Bottecchia.

Of course, the bike Greg rode is no longer available from any Bottecchia seller. And if it were; few would buy it IMHO.

Mike


----------



## stevesbike

that's the sort of doublespeak that some of us find bothersome about your business model. As far as I can tell, there is nothing other than a sticker that Bottecchia USA (or Motobecane) share with their European counterparts or original companies. Even the resurrected Bottecchia in Italy has nothing in common with Bottecchia USA - can I purchase a 8avio model from Bottecchia USA? Are Bottecchia USA frames designed in the Bottecchia studios in Cavarzere and produced in collaboration with dedacciai? 

As far as I can tell, Bottecchia USA doesn't have any design input into the frames, but instead are open mold "generic" frames (and not particularly good ones at that). It's hard not to think that the real intention of co-opting defunct brand names is to confuse naive consumers into thinking they are getting something more than they actually are- as here for example http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=401008


----------



## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> CF frames with all companies are an issue
> Please read the Trek warranty and note statements like "Assessing any damage done to a carbon fiber part requires more experience than is needed to inspect metal parts. If you crash or impact your bike and the force of the impact is absorbed by a carbon part, we strongly encourage you to replace the part, even if there are no indications of damage."
> 
> The problem is it is very hard if not impossable in most cases to ID a defect; in fact, I am unsure if I have ever seen one on any brand. But on the other hand customers are nervous about CF frames and there are many more defect claims on CF than AL, STL, or Ti -- this is true for all brands and factories.
> 
> So there are a lot of 'no fault' replacements. Some customers will just say "it fell on a coffe table and that little crack has me freaked out" -- some customers will say "I was just riding along and then I saw a little crack and it has me freaked out" -- Much different than Metal frames; where we know AL wears out in about 10 years and Steel and Ti should never fail unless crashed.
> 
> Therefore, we have moved to a system on CF that we felt was fair to everyone {remember, I do not pay for warranty issues - factories and customers do}
> 
> However, the frame warranty question is so hard for my staff to handle that I am going to take over all communication on frame warranty claims {we have about 1 or 2 a month and my staff always responses with the exact details of the stated warranty; I will handle by calling the customer}
> 
> The truth is; I like carbon fiber road bikes; but I will not make CF ATB or cyclo cross bikes even though they would sell {the reason should be clear}. But like everyone; my experience with CF is limited to the last decade or so. When I see a frame [let's say from ADK or Martec or Topkey} with little cracks on the chain stay; what do I call that? If it is a week old? If it is a year old? If it is a decade old? If it is a decade old and its AL I will call it worn out; if it Steel or Ti - I'll call it a defect.
> 
> The truth is:
> (1) I do not want any customer to pay a dime on any defect {that is why I have never in 30 years charged the allowed labor of any brands warranty}
> (2) I do not want other customers to pay extra for the expense of repairing non-defects under warranty. {which is the end result on false JRA claims - same as false insurance claims}
> _This is a difficult balancing act that I should have never ask my staff to make the judgements on._
> 
> If anyone does not see that I am trying to do the right thing warranty {as I have since day 1}; they are not looking at all sides of the complicated issue.
> 
> Bottom line to me is: no customer should pay a cent of parts or labor on any true defect {even though ours and ALL bicycle warranties exclude labor}. The issue is always spotting the true defect.


Sure, you right to a certain extent. I personally know 3 cases of SCOTT CF frames failing due to a possible defect or rider error. All 3 were inspected at a SCOTT dealer but a local rep and replaced FREE of charge on the spot, *Period.

*Ok, new frames had to be shipped in.

Yes. most cases of CF failures require a good eye an analysis. But there are cases where shop and shops reps can and DO make decisions locally. TREK and Specialized also come to mind.


----------



## DIRT BOY

stevesbike said:


> that's the sort of doublespeak that some of us find bothersome about your business model. As far as I can tell, there is nothing other than a sticker that Bottecchia USA (or Motobecane) share with their European counterparts or original companies. Even the resurrected Bottecchia in Italy has nothing in common with Bottecchia USA - can I purchase a 8avio model from Bottecchia USA? Are Bottecchia USA frames designed in the Bottecchia studios in Cavarzere and produced in collaboration with dedacciai?
> 
> As far as I can tell, Bottecchia USA doesn't have any design input into the frames, but instead are open mold "generic" frames (and not particularly good ones at that). It's hard not to think that the real intention of co-opting defunct brand names is to confuse naive consumers into thinking they are getting something more than they actually are- as here for example http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=401008


Correct, Motobecane and Bottechcia have NOTHING to do with the original builders, factories, etc.

From what I know, BD bought the license to use these name form defunct companies, including Mericer. Maybe when they all went bankrupt.

It should be clear on their site SOMEWHERE, you are not getting original branded bikes. Then again most buyers from them don't care or are NEVER aware.


----------



## DIRT BOY

Back on topic...

if the frame is defective, the OP should get the same frame or equal/higher value/year that he purchased for free!

If it's deem a Crash replacement, then $400 for a current model year/equal value.

Now $400 plus shipping is a bit high on this frame. But not outrageous. $300-350 would be fair, shipped.


----------



## bikesdirect

stevesbike said:


> As far as I can tell, there is nothing other than a sticker that Bottecchia USA (or Motobecane) share with their European counterparts or original companies. Even the resurrected Bottecchia in Italy has nothing in common with Bottecchia USA - can I purchase a 8avio model from Bottecchia USA? Are Bottecchia USA frames designed in the Bottecchia studios in Cavarzere and produced in collaboration with dedacciai?
> 
> As far as I can tell, Bottecchia USA doesn't have any design input into the frames, but instead are open mold "generic" frames (and not particularly good ones at that). It's hard not to think that the real intention of co-opting defunct brand names is to confuse naive consumers into thinking they are getting something more than they actually are- as here for example http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=401008



Actually, there is a contractional relationship between BottecchiaUSA and Bottecchia in Italy

Bottecchia USA does have input in to what is made and shipped to be sold in USA under restrictions of the contract which set controls by Bottecchia Italy

It is amazing to me that someone might feel the a Brand in Italy would not have the right to try to earn a bit of money thru licensing the their brand in other countries.

Lots of US brands license their names outside the USA. This is standard biz in many products and services.

The list of brands which have changed hands and/or been lincesed and then moved some or all production to Asian factories not connected with original company includes: Cannondale, Schwinn, GT, Dyno, Raleigh, Univega, Diamondback, Masi, Bianchi, Fuji, Kestrel, and dozens of others


This is a not a real issue; IMHO


----------



## bikesdirect

DIRT BOY said:


> Back on topic...
> 
> if the frame is defective, the OP should get the same frame or equal/higher value/year that he purchased for free!
> 
> If it's deem a Crash replacement, then $400 for a current model year/equal value.
> 
> Now $400 plus shipping is a bit high on this frame. But not outrageous. $300-350 would be fair, shipped.



As you can guess; I am working on this situation with the OP
But I do not it odd that you feel that whatever the warranty says is not a major concern.

Warranty limitations are common in the bike business and in other consumer products. I am unsure why the stated terms of warranties should be applied less by us than by other sellers. But we are the most liberal in application of any company I know of. 

The odd thing about this is: we go beyond what the warranty calls for much of the time. And we back components for years longer than other companies. So I do not know why we should get heat compared to other sellers.

One thing I can say is: in our stores we never have demands for warranty replacement before we can even evaluate the product. That does happen with online sales - and it is really hard to deal with.


----------



## real schwinns only

darklyte27 said:


> https://www.motobecane.com/warranty001.html
> 
> I have a motobecane immortal force 2009 which is just a year old.
> while riding yesterday, going up hill about 5 mph yes im slow, the rear dropout broke off, derailleur fell off as well and i had to quickly stop and put a foot down as I almost fell over.
> 
> I thought the warranty would cover the frame as it said lifetime warranty on frames!
> after sending pictures to the mfg, they want 400+ shipping for a black 2010 frame with NO FORK! Plus they want me to saw off the rear left non drive side of the frame and send it back to them!! WTF is this?!!
> 
> can anyone help? what can i do?... 400 is 1/4 the cost of the bike from bikesdirect.com


forget about carbon fibber------ ANOTHER WORD FOR PLASTIC BICYCLE FIT IS VERY IMPORTANT see torelli .com


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## Hooben

bikesdirect said:


> As you can guess; I am working on this situation with the OP
> One thing I can say is: in our stores we never have demands for warranty replacement *before we can even evaluate the product*. *That does happen with online sales* - *and it is really hard to deal with*.


*That is why I go with my LBS...
Where I know that any bicycle warranty problems will be fought long and hard by my factory authorized mechanics and LBS owner. The national product reps trust their judgement on warranty issues. They have national reps that visit the LBS from time to time. My LBS knows what I ride and where I ride. My LBS knows me by name. My LBS is trained to build the bikes they sell. They will fight for me. That is one thing that Bikesdirect can never offer me.*


----------



## bikesdirect

Hooben said:


> *That is why I go with my LBS...
> Where I know that any bicycle warranty problems will be fought long and hard by my factory authorized mechanics and LBS owner. The national product reps trust their judgement on warranty issues. They have national reps that visit the LBS from time to time. My LBS knows what I ride and where I ride. My LBS knows me by name. My LBS is trained to build the bikes they sell. They will fight for me. That is one thing that Bikesdirect can never offer me.*



There are many good reasons to shop at a LBS; you have named a few

There are many good reasons to buy online; I could give you a long list

But in the case of warranty we are often quicker and better for the consumer than a shop can ever be; in some cases we are a bit longer & harder to deal with than just walking into a shop; BUT overall actual defects are so rare on high grade bikes that worrying about it is like worrying about the chance of being hit by falling piano


----------



## nosaj111

Mike,
I find your last statement rash and unfounded....I am the PROUD owner of an Immortal Spirit, I love it and have about 5,000 trouble free miles on it. But....contrary to your statement I would NEVER walk under a piano that was not securely fastened.


----------



## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> Warranty limitations are common in the bike business and in other consumer products. I am unsure why the stated terms of warranties should be applied less by us than by other sellers. But we are the most liberal in application of any company I know of.


Mike, 

I am VERY aware with limitation of warranties as I deal with it regularly on products that I sell. I have NEVER had ANY company charge me for a warranting and DEFECTIVE item, never. CF, Alum, steel, plastic, etc...

Charging a customer $400 because his frame was defective, is just Bull. My opinion and 99.9% of consumers would have the same. Charging freight is one thing.

I deal with one company whose is a PAIN with the limitations, but never charged for anything.

I personal, have dealt with 2 warranty issues on bike/frame.

1 yr warranty and frame was lifetime. a few days before the 2 yrs was up, my KLEIN frame's paint was peeling, chipping and bubbling. KLEIN asked for pictures and I sent it in on my dollar.

I was offered:

1. A free re-paint by the KLEIN/TREK project one guys in the same fade I had.

2. A same year model frame in a different color

3. A upgraded and current year frame if I preferred that color.

Shipped for FREE. I chose #3

My wife's Specialized Dolce had a crack in the HT after 2 rides (1 month). We bought a 2006 when the 2007's where arriving for a deal. Basic model.

I brought it to the the LBS (I never bought a bike or major part from them beside this bike.) and a Spec rep looked at it in 2 days. Since her frame was no longer available, they offered a new 2007 model that was the newt model up for FREE. Not a frame swap, but a complete new bike.

Everything was upgraded. Sora/105 to 105/Ultegra drivetrain. Spec cranks to FSA Gossamer, and better wheels, bars, etc.

The frame was much, much nicer.

My wife ill ride nothing BUT Specialized after that. She owned 4 of them and they all been great for here.

I had warranty with you guys and it was fine. Damaged wheel was replaced at your cost and never had to ship the old one back. Damaged BB though I was left on my own.

My Dawes had a crap paint job (2 months old) and you offered me a Kilo TT at a GREAT price to replace it. Not free like TREK, but it was fine. So to say that BD is more liberal, I would say no, at least with me.

Granted, Dawes does not have a warranty on paint, so I felt the Kilo offer was fair.


----------



## cyclesport45

My two cents; I have an Immortal Ice, 1.5 years old. Had a wheel warranty issue, took some prodding, but Mike took care of business for me. Didn't seem to be any more prodding than I've had to do with the LBS's for similar issues. Bike now has 7K miles, frame is mint.

Sell a zillion bikes, and some of them will break. Some will crash and break. Most will keep on chugging. I suspect most of the Motos sold are chugging along...


----------



## darklyte27

Hello Mike, since your inbox is full we cannot send you pm's.


----------



## toadbiker

my vote- this is NOT a defect

the break point is clamped and doublethickness with hanger and frame drop out
there is a reference to a pic of a bent hanger that was removed

that is what really happened..


----------



## real schwinns only

Reynolds531 said:


> forged steel dropouts. Chainstays that aren't destroyed by chainsuck. Seatstays that don't break when the bike falls over.
> 
> The steel Specialized Allez reviewed in another thread is a better frame for most people than CF or weight weenie Al at any price.


When will they ever learn that steel is real and here stay.Weight has been overemphasized by hype with the media, and manufacturers have responded with frames, forks and components that live on the brink of failure. If you haven't experienced it first hand or heard of them or seen the photos of snapped frames, forks and cranks, handlebars,stems seat posts, and rims, hubs , you're just out of the loop, because they're out there.("NOTE BROKEN OR LOST BODY PARTS ARE NOT COVERED BY MANUFACTURER") Manufacturers are building to weight, and as a result, the number of failures and recalls in "high-end" frames and forks and components has skyrocketed. That's not safe. That's why hammers, nails, rebar, and bridges are steel,sky scrapers have steel frames, thats why anything built to withstand extreme conditions is constructed of, you guessed it, some type of "STEEL". see http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicycle_making/frame_materials also see www.henryjames.com.


----------



## toadbiker

Anything can be broken
anything can be over engineered

I think titanium trumps super hi grade steel
for similar purposes


----------



## real schwinns only

*Ti is great if your"*

Offshore bank account has endless amounts of dollars.For those of us who do not have a swiss bank to wire us endless of money and don't wan't a inferior mass produced Chinese made ti rubbish. custom fit, custom made modern steel frames are more affordable than you'd think. another consideration is a gently used ti bicycle off of ebay or the cycling clubs news letter.


----------



## toadbiker

Please tell us why you paint all Chinese titanium as rubbish

who has affordable custom steel bikes?

Otherwise this smacks of racism


----------



## Peter_Klim

darklyte27 said:


> So after speaking with Mike for about 50 minutes he wants me to send the bike back for them to look at it on his dime.
> 
> As for the dings, dings happen, you cant magically step off the bike when the bike breaks unexpectly on you when you are clipped in.
> I was lucky to have unclipped my right foot and step to the right which is when it probably got dinged.
> Heck when I bought the bike, the paint job was dinged here and there so they gave me a 25$ credit.
> 
> As for the warranty, its understandable if i totally thrashed the bike that I would be at fault and pay for a new frame if i choose to go that route. but for them to want 400+ shipping doesnt seem like a warranty or assume I was at fault.
> 
> Any way either way im out of a bike for now.


Not much of a discount on a frame when they sell this one to any customer for only $495.


----------



## darklyte27

Heres a post I made in another thread but it talks about my exp with BD

It maybe all good up until you need customer service.
I was once a proud owner of a motobecane immortal force until the rear drive dropoff snapped while riding up hill.

I sent the whole bike back paid for bikesdirect which was nice.
Then after about a week or two he saw the frame and gave me a few choices, pay 400$ for a new Black frame and reuse my white fork.. *no thanks*

take a cheaper aluminum frame, windsor? i think

I asked him if I could just buy a new Kestrel frame and reuse my old parts and he agreed. so I paid xxx$ for the new frame and fork and got my bike in about 2 weeks as it had to be shipped to him, parts changed out and shipped to me. To my surprise he did give me a new rear derailleur and front derailleur, the front because the kestrel frame is a braze on not clamp so i guess thats a given.

Keep in mind he had told me he would do free labor and shipping.
When I got the Kestrel bike, the cables were not connected or adjusted to either derailleur, front brake, stem was stuck in the box somewhere.
I also didnt get the Kestrel seatpost like I had hoped.

I had to spend a few hours connecting, adjusting everything myself.

So I sent a PM to Mike of BD asking about the seat post or if I could buy it, he replied that a seat post is a component and separate from the bike I am impossible to satisfy etc.

I wanted to give him the business of buying the seat post but he quoted me the msrp price of 160$. It was too bad I didnt jump on the one I saw on ebay for 50$.. heck it was probably the one that should have came with my bike.

After riding the new Kestrel bike though last weekend, it is a much better ride. Power transfer is wonderful, I didnt realize I could ride this much better reason being the frame stiffness.


----------



## toadbiker

Contacted bd and the framesets are being clearanced thus the low price
ps price is for frame only
no fork no headset


----------



## twobournes

I have to say that I was hoping for a slightly happier ending to this scenario as I just ordered a 2009 Kestrel rt800 from BD. I commend bikesdirect for taking on this challenge (and the criticism) publicly, but I do NOT have very warm and fuzzy feelings about my purchase now (YES, I should have read more about this issue before making my purchase ~ or I should not have done research after the fact). I suppose the lure of a Dura-Ace equipped carbon road bike for 1/3 of the cost of the one my LBS can get temporarily intoxicated me. I had intended on chronicling my experience here but as I have read other posts I have found that it is probably not as welcomed as I thought it would be. 

I understand that you (darklyte27) may not want to discuss how much you paid for the new kestrel frame, but can you say whether it was at least a discounted price?


----------



## darklyte27

You will be glad you got a Kestrel instead of a motobecane.
Like I have said, I have ridden both, and the Kestrel frame is alot stiffer. I couldnt believe how much better I could ride.

Although BD did do something, they just didnt live up to their words. I expected to get a bike ready to go as he said he would have the labor done free.
but instead neither derailleur were connected, front brake dangling in the box. I got the mismatched wheels back too haha.
Ritchey OCR wheels one with round spokes and other with bladed.

Yes the frame was discounted from MSRP. but if you consider 3000$ for a frame is reasonable I dont think so. cost to make probably is in the range of 200-400$ I paid a little more than that. So I probably paid a little above cost.


But anyways, I am guessing you got the blk orange and white rt800? its a really nice frame, plus you got dura ace components. I really like mine, cept I have ultegra 6600 comps.
still rides really well though.


----------



## bikesdirect

Some times it is not clear what happened to a frame or fork without inspecting the entire bike. That is why all dealers & manufacturers want to see the complete bike on any warranty claim on a frame or fork.

See an example where cyclistist was 100% convinced this fork was defect - until the actual cause was pointed out.










But look closely and you will see the reason the fork is cracked










Or maybe a closeup makes it more clear










Even though this is not a defect; customer was 'sold' a new fork for $40 including shipping {meaning $20 for a new fork that was clearly not covered under warranty} -- There are dozens of examples of replacements we have done for free or next to nothing on items that were clearly not defects.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ now the case at hand ~~~~~~~~~ 
Wonder why the rear der shifted into spokes while rider was going up a hill and had down shifted to low? It helps if you can see the entire bike {remember poster made it clear to me he had never been down on bike and that luckily he did not fall in this case}

































































~~~~~ the reader can make their own judgement ~~~~~~
But in this case the customer was sold a new Kestrel Frame for less than half dealer wholesale; was given a new rear and front der; and had labor and return shipping handled for free. That would not happen in 99% of shops in USA. {and in case you are wondering; yes this happens with customers that do not post online also - just did a complete swap of frame from CF to Ti for half cost for customer who got nervous due to CF frame being dinged by rocks}

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For me - it remains clear that
1 - thousands of Moto Immortals sold and I have still not seen one actual defect
2 - shipping of a frame back for inspection is $25 - a complete bike is $40 {48 states} - thus it is worth while to inspect complete bikes
3 - most customers are very happy that we normally wave the labor charges on warranty claims [even when there is no defects]; that we cover shipping back [even though that is not covered by any warranty] and that we always offer our customers parts, frames, etc at dealer cost [or sometimes even less]
4 - I should continue to post 'the rest of the story' pictures on warranty claims after complete inspection of bikes [everyone will find it entertaining]


----------



## darklyte27

Funny you put the pedals on the crank as I only used them twice. Those scratches are from me using clip in pedals for the first time. I notice you didnt even screw them on all the way. I have been using Shimano pdr540 pedals after my 2nd ride with the wellgo pedals as the wellgo's are more difficult to clip in.

As for the scratches on the levers, rear derailleur that was from falling over when the rear drive dropout broke on me while riding. There are some minor scratches on the rear derailleur from tools making adjustments. 

As for the scratches on the drive side seat stay and chain stay of the frame what do you expect when the frame fails? its going to get scratched up because the rear derailleur broke off and got caught in the spokes which hindered me from forward motion and falling on my right side.

Since you are posting pictures of the bike, you should post a picture of the whole bike as well to show the whole frame as its pretty much was still good.

Anyways I consider knicks and scratches normal wear and tear, we ride where theres cars, people, animals sticks, rocks ans such that will hit our bikes and ourselves so a bike isnt going to be perfectly scratch free after a year.

You might not remember but when I first bought the bike, inspected it which had a few scratches on the frame already, which I did get a 25$ compensation from you and gladly accepted.

So hopefully you will treat other customers who have problems with the bikes you sell better in the future, or maybe continue the way you serve as history has shown that some others have had less than satisfactory results.


----------



## ukbloke

bikesdirect said:


> See an example where cyclistist was 100% convinced this fork was defect - until the actual cause was pointed out.


I couldn't figure this one out, and I don't see anything revealing in the pictures. My only thought is that this about the right place to mount a speed sensor on the front fork, and perhaps one could weaken the material by an excessively tightened zip tie or by back-and-forth movement of the sensor. Can you give more of a clue? Thanks!


----------



## darklyte27

I tend to think a crash involves speed vs my incident where i was traveling at a slow speed because i was going up hill, where then the dropoff broke, which slowed my forward motion but still moving, causing me to fall to my right side. So if you were still clipped in with both feet, with out warning trying to unclip your right foot you are going to fall over of course the bike is going to get scratched up.

everyone has different definitions


----------



## bikesdirect

ukbloke said:


> I couldn't figure this one out, and I don't see anything revealing in the pictures. My only thought is that this about the right place to mount a speed sensor on the front fork, and perhaps one could weaken the material by an excessively tightened zip tie or by back-and-forth movement of the sensor. Can you give more of a clue? Thanks!



Bent spoke at exact place of fork crack indicates an object [owner now says it may have been a stick] got between spoke and fork and impacted fork while wheel was spinning










This happens from time to time with sticks, litter, feet and even squirrels -- the result is sometime a crash - sometimes and ruined wheel; sometimes a damaged fork -- etc

point is: this was not covered by warranty - customer got a CF fork for $20 plus $20 shipping [he was very happy]

In case of OP here - he got way more than the warranty spelled out [including labor, der, return shipping] - as everyone can see

Last guy who wanted his CF frame replaced with Ti paid $500 including frame; labor, and shipping - he was very happy

Last guy that endo'ed an ATB and bent HT and DT - paid $40 and got a new frame, shipping, labor, and some smal parts [he was very happy]

In every case; we go over what the warranty or even fairness requires
and I have done that for 30 years

That does not mean every customer is happy; as there is just some percentage of people who are never happy

Truth is: most customers are better of with our back end service than with 90% of shops in USA [on top of being able to but 2 bikes for the price of one]


----------



## bikesdirect

darklyte27 said:


> I tend to think a crash involves speed vs my incident where i was traveling at a slow speed because i was going up hill, where then the dropoff broke, which slowed my forward motion but still moving, causing me to fall to my right side. So if you were still clipped in with both feet, with out warning trying to unclip your right foot you are going to fall over of course the bike is going to get scratched up.
> 
> everyone has different definitions



People who are fimilar with bikes and have seen lots of these cases know exactly what happened here and all industry insiders would know at once this was not a defect in the frame. {every shop that has been open over a month has seen frame damage from der over shift - you der was out of alignment due to hanger being bent in from previous lay down of bike}

Which is not really the point - point is we did way more than the warranty called for as we have have for lots of other customers. 

There is a balance between being fair to one customer and being fair to all customers. Those that understand business details do know that all customers pay for company expenses. 

The frame you were provided would go for $1000 or more in a shop. No warranty covers labor or return shipping [but you got it for free] and small parts that need replacing are not covered either.

I think most readers understand now why a claim of defective frame or fork must be backed up by providing the complete bike for inspection.


----------



## twobournes

darklyte27 said:


> You will be glad you got a Kestrel instead of a motobecane.
> Like I have said, I have ridden both, and the Kestrel frame is alot stiffer. I couldnt believe how much better I could ride.
> 
> Although BD did do something, they just didnt live up to their words. I expected to get a bike ready to go as he said he would have the labor done free.
> but instead neither derailleur were connected, front brake dangling in the box. I got the mismatched wheels back too haha.
> Ritchey OCR wheels one with round spokes and other with bladed.
> 
> Yes the frame was discounted from MSRP. but if you consider 3000$ for a frame is reasonable I dont think so. cost to make probably is in the range of 200-400$ I paid a little more than that. So I probably paid a little above cost.
> 
> 
> But anyways, I am guessing you got the blk orange and white rt800? its a really nice frame, plus you got dura ace components. I really like mine, cept I have ultegra 6600 comps.
> still rides really well though.



I was actually up in the air between the Moto and the Kestrel; so I'm definitely glad to hear that! 

Also, while I agree with Mike that the labor to replace the parts is usually not covered by the manufacurer - it has been my experience that this WOULD normally be taken care of by the LBS that sold the bike. Of course in this case there is no LBS from which the bike was purchased. I guess that is one of the trade offs one must make to purchase a bike at such a low price. All things considered I don't think that its a terrible trade off.


----------



## real schwinns only

Because most inexpensive low cost ti bicycles cut corners ether no R&D or low R&D you get what you pay for.!!! and now many steel frame builders offer affordable frames to stay competitive in a global market.you can find quality gently used well made ti bicycles sometimes through your bicycle shop or your cycle club or on E bay. If it sounds to good to be true it probably is.


----------



## bikesdirect

real schwinns only said:


> Because most inexpensive low cost ti bicycles cut corners ether no R&D or low R&D you get what you pay for.!!! and now many steel frame builders offer affordable frames to stay competitive in a global market.you can find quality gently used well made ti bicycles sometimes through your bicycle shop or your cycle club or on E bay. If it sounds to good to be true it probably is.



Many people do not understand the costs involved in the bicycle business.
Distribution costs are very high; therefore the opportunity for buyers to save money by buying from sources with lower distribution cost.

In the case of Ti bikes - every buyer of our bikes has been amazed with the value. Just check out the posts of actual owners. Or check out magazine reviews. The value in our Ti bikes is very clear; and many experienced cyclists have purchased them and then posted how they are amazed that our Ti bikes are even better than many sold for 2 or 3 times as much.

Stay tuned - Ti and high-grade steel or areas we intend to keep expanding in.


----------



## My Own Private Idaho

I'm all in favor of bashing BD. But when you crash a bike, what do you expect? This isn't a warranty issue, but a crash replacement issue. I don't think Mike's been unreasonable on this one.


----------



## Chaplain1

*I Want Real Value For My Money!*

Hey look, this is my first and probably only post on here. So let me make it a good one. I know this is an old thread but I would like to put in my two cents as a regular person who likes bicycling and has been shopping for a new road bike for about 3 months. So, here goes:

I WANT REAL VALUE FOR MY MONEY! 
BECAUSE, I DON"T CARE ABOUT MY STATUS IN THE LOCAL BICYCLE SNOB CLUB.

Now, on to my response to this thread.



stevesbike said:


> Mike, I think many of us would be less inclined to give you a hard time if you were just more straightforward with your business model...[a] business model... designed to mislead consumers. https://forums.roadbikereview.com/images/smilies/cryin.gif


I personally like Mike's business model. I honestly do not see how he can be more straight forward. I've learned everything I ever wanted to know about the bicycle industry by reading his posts.

He took a dormant brand and revitalized it. There was a lot of real value in the Motobecane name that was just lying around rotting. I remember the Motobecane brand from when I was a little kid back in the 70's. Motobecane was synonymous with bicycles to my little mind. 

Steve, you can't tell me that if Motobecane had not gone bankrupt in the 80's there frames would be made in a different factory than the one they are made in today. They would absolutely be made in the same factory Mike has them made in. But they would cost twice as much. 

To me, you just sound like you have a personal issue with Mike or Bike's Direct. Perhaps, you are a frustrated opponent who keeps losing customers to him. Or, just a bike snob that is frustrated that you spend thousands of dollars on bikes that don't perform better than your more frugal peers. I don't know. That's just what it seems to me. 

So, I applaud Mike's ingenuity in developing a business model that brings real value to the customer while turning a profit... a nice profit I hope. 

Secondly, I appreciate Mike's willingness to come to an open forum and wade through all the garbage to discuss his business with us personally. I know running a business takes a lot of time and I read in one of his posts that he has small kids at home too. I certainly haven't seen any other men of his business caliber on here openly discussing business with us. Or taking up customer's issues personally. 

So, Mike, if you're reading, thanks for bringing bicycle prices down to the everyman level and for educating us regular folks on the behind the scenes nuts and bolts of the bicycle industry as well as the actual costs of bicycles. 

I think a lot of people are just pissed at you because you have shown the world that there's nothing magical about a bicycle. They're all the same except for the sticker.

Oh, and if you think the BD warranty is NOT good enough, try this: Buy TWO Motobecanes for the price of ONE Trek. If one breaks, ride the other one.

Cheers,
Navy Chaplain, Husband one one wife, Father of three, Bicycle rider on three continents.

Now, if I could just scrape up half the price of a Trek before Dec. 31, I'd like to buy a Motobecane Nemesis while they are on sale. HAHA! Not with 3 kids. 

Merry Christmas Everybody!


----------



## real schwinns only

Because most inexpensive low cost ti bicycles cut corners ether no R&D or low R&D ("R&D"research and development) you get what you pay for.!!! and now many steel frame builders offer affordable frames to stay competitive in a global market.you can find quality gently used well made ti bicycles sometimes through your bicycle shop or your cycle club or on E bay.why chance you health on some poorly made mass produced ti frame. If it sounds to good to be true it probably is.


----------



## real schwinns only

I think Motobecane is a excellent brand but be wary of bicycles made by uncouth manufacturers who have no R&D department. no quality control and some uncouth outsourcer who has never seriously rode a bicycle selling bicycles for unreal prices. if seems too good to be true it probably is.Ive raced bicycles and have ridden and seen many bicycles some excellent some rubbish ,and no you don't have to spend a zillion dollars to get a good bicycle but you do have to be careful of some brands you never heard of because who will honor your warranty when you can't find the manufacture.


----------



## real schwinns only

I think Motobecane is a excellent brand but be wary of bicycles made by uncouth manufacturers who have no R&D department. no quality control and some uncouth outsourcer who has never seriously rode a bicycle selling bicycles for unreal prices. if seems too good to be true it probably is.Ive raced bicycles and have ridden and seen many bicycles some excellent some rubbish ,and no you don't have to spend a zillion dollars to get a good bicycle but you do have to be careful of some brands you never heard of because who will honor your warranty when you can't find the manufacture


----------



## tcufrog02

Chaplain1 said:


> Hey look, this is my first and probably only post on here. So let me make it a good one. I know this is an old thread but I would like to put in my two cents as a regular person who likes bicycling and has been shopping for a new road bike for about 3 months. So, here goes:
> 
> I WANT REAL VALUE FOR MY MONEY!
> BECAUSE, I DON"T CARE ABOUT MY STATUS IN THE LOCAL BICYCLE SNOB CLUB.
> 
> Now, on to my response to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally like Mike's business model. I honestly do not see how he can be more straight forward. I've learned everything I ever wanted to know about the bicycle industry by reading his posts.
> 
> He took a dormant brand and revitalized it. There was a lot of real value in the Motobecane name that was just lying around rotting. I remember the Motobecane brand from when I was a little kid back in the 70's. Motobecane was synonymous with bicycles to my little mind.
> 
> Steve, you can't tell me that if Motobecane had not gone bankrupt in the 80's there frames would be made in a different factory than the one they are made in today. They would absolutely be made in the same factory Mike has them made in. But they would cost twice as much.
> 
> To me, you just sound like you have a personal issue with Mike or Bike's Direct. Perhaps, you are a frustrated opponent who keeps losing customers to him. Or, just a bike snob that is frustrated that you spend thousands of dollars on bikes that don't perform better than your more frugal peers. I don't know. That's just what it seems to me.
> 
> So, I applaud Mike's ingenuity in developing a business model that brings real value to the customer while turning a profit... a nice profit I hope.
> 
> Secondly, I appreciate Mike's willingness to come to an open forum and wade through all the garbage to discuss his business with us personally. I know running a business takes a lot of time and I read in one of his posts that he has small kids at home too. I certainly haven't seen any other men of his business caliber on here openly discussing business with us. Or taking up customer's issues personally.
> 
> So, Mike, if you're reading, thanks for bringing bicycle prices down to the everyman level and for educating us regular folks on the behind the scenes nuts and bolts of the bicycle industry as well as the actual costs of bicycles.
> 
> I think a lot of people are just pissed at you because you have shown the world that there's nothing magical about a bicycle. They're all the same except for the sticker.
> 
> Oh, and if you think the BD warranty is NOT good enough, try this: Buy TWO Motobecanes for the price of ONE Trek. If one breaks, ride the other one.
> 
> Cheers,
> Navy Chaplain, Husband one one wife, Father of three, Bicycle rider on three continents.
> 
> Now, if I could just scrape up half the price of a Trek before Dec. 31, I'd like to buy a Motobecane Nemesis while they are on sale. HAHA! Not with 3 kids.
> 
> Merry Christmas Everybody!


First post...interesting.


----------



## twobournes

Chaplain1 said:


> Hey look, this is my first and probably only post on here. So let me make it a good one. I know this is an old thread but I would like to put in my two cents as a regular person who likes bicycling and has been shopping for a new road bike for about 3 months. So, here goes:
> 
> I WANT REAL VALUE FOR MY MONEY!
> BECAUSE, I DON"T CARE ABOUT MY STATUS IN THE LOCAL BICYCLE SNOB CLUB.
> 
> Now, on to my response to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally like Mike's business model. I honestly do not see how he can be more straight forward. I've learned everything I ever wanted to know about the bicycle industry by reading his posts.
> 
> He took a dormant brand and revitalized it. There was a lot of real value in the Motobecane name that was just lying around rotting. I remember the Motobecane brand from when I was a little kid back in the 70's. Motobecane was synonymous with bicycles to my little mind.
> 
> Steve, you can't tell me that if Motobecane had not gone bankrupt in the 80's there frames would be made in a different factory than the one they are made in today. They would absolutely be made in the same factory Mike has them made in. But they would cost twice as much.
> 
> To me, you just sound like you have a personal issue with Mike or Bike's Direct. Perhaps, you are a frustrated opponent who keeps losing customers to him. Or, just a bike snob that is frustrated that you spend thousands of dollars on bikes that don't perform better than your more frugal peers. I don't know. That's just what it seems to me.
> 
> So, I applaud Mike's ingenuity in developing a business model that brings real value to the customer while turning a profit... a nice profit I hope.
> 
> Secondly, I appreciate Mike's willingness to come to an open forum and wade through all the garbage to discuss his business with us personally. I know running a business takes a lot of time and I read in one of his posts that he has small kids at home too. I certainly haven't seen any other men of his business caliber on here openly discussing business with us. Or taking up customer's issues personally.
> 
> So, Mike, if you're reading, thanks for bringing bicycle prices down to the everyman level and for educating us regular folks on the behind the scenes nuts and bolts of the bicycle industry as well as the actual costs of bicycles.
> 
> I think a lot of people are just pissed at you because you have shown the world that there's nothing magical about a bicycle. They're all the same except for the sticker.
> 
> Oh, and if you think the BD warranty is NOT good enough, try this: Buy TWO Motobecanes for the price of ONE Trek. If one breaks, ride the other one.
> 
> Cheers,
> Navy Chaplain, Husband one one wife, Father of three, Bicycle rider on three continents.
> 
> Now, if I could just scrape up half the price of a Trek before Dec. 31, I'd like to buy a Motobecane Nemesis while they are on sale. HAHA! Not with 3 kids.
> 
> Merry Christmas Everybody!


I will say that while I pretty much agree with the message of this post (BD is a good deal, etc.) and I am a BD customer. However, this sounds amazingly fishy. Chaplain1, if you are a real person- then I apologize, but WOW you seem to have a huge amount of info about Mike and BD, and you even managed to plug one of the bikes that are on sale right now. It just sounds odd to me. I am very much in favor of saving money and that's why I bought from BD; I also think Mike is sounding pretty fair about the situation at hand and apparently has handled most of the situations with equal fairness. 

I just think the post sounded more like a commercial than a real post and noting that this was your first post and would likely be your last only contributes to that. I hope that you are simply a passionate customer because I hate the idea of a company spokesperson doing something like that.


----------



## bikesdirect

twobournes said:


> I will say that while I pretty much agree with the message of this post (BD is a good deal, etc.) and I am a BD customer. However, this sounds amazingly fishy. Chaplain1, if you are a real person- then I apologize, but WOW you seem to have a huge amount of info about Mike and BD, and you even managed to plug one of the bikes that are on sale right now. It just sounds odd to me. I am very much in favor of saving money and that's why I bought from BD; I also think Mike is sounding pretty fair about the situation at hand and apparently has handled most of the situations with equal fairness.
> 
> I just think the post sounded more like a commercial than a real post and noting that this was your first post and would likely be your last only contributes to that. I hope that you are simply a passionate customer because I hate the idea of a company spokesperson doing something like that.



I am unsure of who Chaplian1 is - but I thank them for their business

I am sure of who Chaplian1 is NOT - they are not someone who works for me - my employees know better than to post on this or any cycle related forum

-- BTW - thanks for pointing out that I handle such situations fairly - my policy is to always go beyond what is required by the warranty


----------



## Chaplain1

*Apology Accepted*



twobournes said:


> Chaplain1, if you are a real person- then I apologize.


Apology accepted.

For the record. I am not a customer of Bikesdirect. I am shopping and saving. I do not know personally any employee of BD except the salesperson Craig Tennyson at the local store who helped me with a test ride two weeks ago. I know his name because I have his card with the bike I test rode written on it. 

Like I said, I am a Navy Chaplain. I am stationed at NS Mayport. There are security issues with Naval Officers putting out personal information on forums like this otherwise I would give you my name and phone number. If you really want to verify my identity send me a message. I'll call you.

If I sound like a commercial, that's good, because I am a professional communicator and I got my message across.

Cheers,
Navy Chaplain


----------



## twobournes

bikesdirect said:


> I am unsure of who Chaplian1 is - but I thank them for their business
> 
> I am sure of who Chaplian1 is NOT - they are not someone who works for me - my employees know better than to post on this or any cycle related forum
> 
> -- BTW - thanks for pointing out that I handle such situations fairly - my policy is to always go beyond what is required by the warranty



If you say he does not work for you then I believe you.


----------



## twobournes

Fair enough.


----------



## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> No warranty covers labor or return shipping


Really?? TREK, Specialized and Blue Competition ALL returned frames for warranty replacement or warranty inspection FREE OF CHARGE.

Ryan @ Blue returned my frame after an inspection FOC.'

Bike Direct sent me a warranty wheel free and told me to keep the bad one. First time you guys did this for someone? 

Specialized and the LBS where my wife bought her bike offered free labor as the frame needing to be placed was less than a month old. But instead she got a complete upgrade frame and components instead.

Yes, labor is *rare*, but return shipping in standard form my experience with frames and parts. A top notch LBS will usually do it for free if the bike is under 6 moths old.

Sometimes you just spew false statements like they are facts. :mad2:


----------



## bikesdirect

DIRT BOY said:


> Really?? TREK, Specialized and Blue Competition ALL returned frames for warranty replacement or warranty inspection FREE OF CHARGE.
> 
> Ryan @ Blue returned my frame after an inspection FOC.'
> 
> Bike Direct sent me a warranty wheel free and told me to keep the bad one. First time you guys did this for someone?
> 
> Specialized and the LBS where my wife bought her bike offered free labor as the frame needing to be placed was less than a month old. But instead she got a complete upgrade frame and components instead.
> 
> Yes, labor is *rare*, but return shipping in standard form my experience with frames and parts. A top notch LBS will usually do it for free if the bike is under 6 moths old.
> 
> Sometimes you just spew false statements like they are facts. :mad2:


Sometimes it is hard to read the details in a warranty. What I am referring to is the cost to get the item to the dealer and back to customer. [not cost to get item from manufacturer to dealer]

Example: you live 100 miles from the dealer and you have to drive to dealer to drop off bike for inspection AND drive back again later to pickup repaired or replaced item. That is 400 miles of driving -- Trek, Specialized, Blue, Kona, Fuji, etc will not cover that cost.

Some warranties state this by saying warranty does not cover shipping to dealer - others say what Trek says "This warranty is expressly limited to the repair or replacement of a defective item and is the sole remedy of the warranty."

Either way - I have never read one warranty that covers transportation costs of claimed defects to the dealer. I have read hundreds of bike warranties. If there is one that covers transportation costs; I would love to see it.

Of course, some companies in special cases may cover transportation costs - we frequently cover transportation back if customer covers it to us. But that is not what the warranty says. We just do it in many cases as a bonus service.

In my statement - I should have been more clear and unless term 'transportation to dealer' instead of shipping. Sorry


----------



## CalypsoArt

> That's why hammers, nails, rebar, and bridges are steel,sky scrapers have steel frames, thats why anything built to withstand extreme conditions is constructed of, you guessed it, some type of "STEEL".


Really, you don't think it has anything to do with the fact that carbon fiber is a relatively new material? And, don't you think the it might be because it is EXTREMELY expensive in relation to the traditional materials like steel--used since man discovered he could add carbon to iron. 

Are you suggesting that carbon fibre F1 cars, MotoGP bikes, race boats or carbon fibre sail rigs are not under extreme conditions?


----------



## real schwinns only

Most all " carbon fibber" products are made for weight reduction only they use them for a season and if they have not already expired then they get retired. Weight has been overemphasized by hype with the media, and manufacturers have responded with frames, forks and components that live on the brink of failure. If you haven't experienced it first hand or heard of them or seen the photos of snapped frames, forks and cranks, handlebars,stems seat posts, and rims, hubs and worse yet the carnage, and broken bones smashed faces lost teeth and the trip to hospital , you're just out of the loop, because they're out there.("NOTE BROKEN OR LOST BODY PARTS ARE NOT COVERED BY MANUFACTURER") Manufacturers are building to weight, and as a result, the number of failures and recalls in "high-end" frames and forks and components has skyrocketed. THAT"S NOT SAFE.. That's why hammers, nails, rebar, and bridges are steel,sky scrapers have steel frames, thats why anything built to withstand extreme conditions and made to last is constructed of, you guessed it, some type of "STEEL". see http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicyc...rame_materials also see www.henryjames.com.


----------



## real schwinns only

CalypsoArt said:


> Really, you don't think it has anything to do with the fact that carbon fiber is a relatively new material? And, don't you think the it might be because it is EXTREMELY expensive in relation to the traditional materials like steel--used since man discovered he could add carbon to iron.
> 
> Are you suggesting that carbon fibre F1 cars, MotoGP bikes, race boats or carbon fibre sail rigs are not under extreme conditions?


Most all " carbon fibber" products are made for weight reduction only they use them for a season and if they have not already expired then they get retired. Weight has been overemphasized by hype with the media, and manufacturers have responded with frames, forks and components that live on the brink of failure. If you haven't experienced it first hand or heard of them or seen the photos of snapped frames, forks and cranks, handlebars,stems seat posts, and rims, hubs and worse yet the carnage, and broken bones smashed faces lost teeth and the trip to hospital , you're just out of the loop, because they're out there.("NOTE BROKEN OR LOST BODY PARTS ARE NOT COVERED BY MANUFACTURER") Manufacturers are building to weight, and as a result, the number of failures and recalls in "high-end" frames and forks and components has skyrocketed. THAT"S NOT SAFE.. That's why hammers, nails, rebar, and bridges are steel,sky scrapers have steel frames, thats why anything built to withstand extreme conditions is constructed of, you guessed it, some type of "STEEL". see http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicyc...rame_materials also see www.henryjames.com.


----------



## hgaskins

> my opinion is that this company intentionally aims to attract naive bicycle consumers to make them believe they are buying something they are not (just look at the Bottecchia USA website and all the misleading references to Greg Lemond and real Bottecchias).


Whether intentional or not I find this statement to be offensive because it’s assumes that only naive consumers purchase from BD. That’s an arrogant and condescending statement. I am anything but naive and I’ve purchased two bikes from them in the last year, and both have performed well. I didn’t purchase them because I'm naive. I did it after doing considerable research on different bikes in my price range and slightly above that was available in my area including renting from two LBS in my area (Tampa, FL). In the end the best choice in my range for what I wanted was the Immortal Pro. Since I already knew the make of all the parts the only area of discovery left was to discover the manufacturer of the frame, and it turned out to be Advanced Composites. If you do a little research you will discover that a lot of the big names also use their frames. I’m not a naive consumer but rather a frugal one.

Note the frame on this expensive Louis Garneau and compare it to the Immortal Pro.


----------



## RHankey

real schwinns only said:


> Most all " carbon *fibber*" products are made for weight reduction only they use them for a season and if they have not already expired then they get retired. Weight has been overemphasized by hype with the media, and manufacturers have responded with frames, forks and components that live on the brink of failure. If you haven't experienced it first hand or heard of them or seen the photos of snapped frames, forks and cranks, handlebars,stems seat posts, and rims, hubs and worse yet the carnage, and broken bones smashed faces lost teeth and the trip to hospital , you're just out of the loop, because they're out there.("NOTE BROKEN OR LOST BODY PARTS ARE NOT COVERED BY MANUFACTURER") Manufacturers are building to weight, and as a result, the number of failures and recalls in "high-end" frames and forks and components has skyrocketed. THAT"S NOT SAFE.. That's why hammers, nails, rebar, and bridges are steel,sky scrapers have steel frames, thats why anything built to withstand extreme conditions and made to last is constructed of, you guessed it, some type of "STEEL". see http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicyc...rame_materials also see www.henryjames.com.


Is "carbon fibber" some sort of material that is written about by someone who fibs alot?


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## CalypsoArt

All I can say about this thread is Wow! I had never heard of BD before reading this thread. (In fact I had to look around before I realized the BD meant bikesdirect.) I'm amazed how many people here have a big w**dy against this company--and I don't get it. Wow!

Just reading the posts and looking at the pics all I can say is Mike/BD's responses have impressed me, and I am truly skeptical of what the bike in question has been through. "Me thinks the OP doth protest to much", and his dissatisfaction ire seems to emulate a boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Again, my novice opinion is all based on what has only been posted here in this thread.

I ride a 2007 Cannondale that says "Hand made in the USA". I've been researching and visiting LBS in my area looking for a new bike. In this current quest I learned that Cannondales are no longer made here. This was why I originally bought Cannondale. It seems that the choice for me in my price range is all Chinese/Taiwanese made bikes--unless Indian stuff is coming also. LOL

The best part about coming across this thread is the you all have introduced me to BD, and I suspect it is where I'll get my next bike if I don't get a good deal on a used USA product. Good move to address this on the forum as you did Mike/BD. I'm pretty certain it is more of a positive than a negative. Or for the conspiracy theorists, Well played Mike.


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## DIRT BOY

bikesdirect said:


> In my statement - I should have been more clear and unless term 'transportation to dealer' instead of shipping. Sorry


yes, you should have. NO ONE is dumb enough to think someone will pay you for your drive to a dealer. Come on, you know what I was talking about.

I have never see a Company charge for SHIPPING a warranty time back.


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## twobournes

CalypsoArt said:


> All I can say about this thread is Wow! I had never heard of BD before reading this thread. (In fact I had to look around before I realized the BD meant bikesdirect.) I'm amazed how many people here have a big w**dy against this company--and I don't get it. Wow!
> 
> Just reading the posts and looking at the pics all I can say is Mike/BD's responses have impressed me, and I am truly skeptical of what the bike in question has been through. "Me thinks the OP doth protest to much", and his dissatisfaction ire seems to emulate a boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


If you check out the ops other posts you will see that he is ACTUALLY pretty satisfied with things (at least it seems that way to me). I do not pretend to know anything about his role in the damage (if any), but I checked out another post he made about his replacement frame and he sounds extremely happy about it.


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## Richard.Howe

Deal is, folks generally want to pay absolute bottom dollar, then throw a blue-face b**ch fit (publicly, I might add) when they don't get champagne and caviar service. 

I've been tickled with my BD frame and service, including a warranty issue.


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## toadbiker

Nah steel is used cuz it's cheaper for mass applications
materials are application, environmental and stress strain specific


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## bikesdirect

DIRT BOY said:


> yes, you should have. *NO ONE is dumb enough to think someone will pay you for your drive to a dealer. *Come on, you know what I was talking about.
> 
> I have never see a Company charge for SHIPPING a warranty time back.



really? well, [a] I have had that request in stores before and * it is no different than cost of shipping back for inspection

turth in the case is simple: when I customer makes a warranty claim to anyone - it is up to the customer to get the item back to the seller for inspection. That is what we are talking about: how does the seller get to inspect the item?

We from time to time; replace items based on a photo - something never done by any brick & mortor locations to my knowledge. But on big items and suspect claims: the item must be inspected.

clearly there are two points of confusion here
1 - returning the item to the seller for inspection is always the responsibilty of the customer - but somehow; some people think driving an item back to the seller is free {which is clearly is not} -- and then some people feel mailing is an unjustified cost {even when it is less than the cost of driving}
2 - transportation by customer to seller is different than transportation to the seller from supplier -- the first is never covered under warranty -- the second is never charged to the customer

I run the on-line store in this area just like the shops - if a customer has a suspected defect - they just need to present it for claim; they can drive it over or send it by mail {and in a few cases they can just send a digital picture}

In summary; this is all over blown in my mind in that out of every thousand bikes sold; there is about one actual defect {and this ratio is the same on all brands plus most defects are on little parts}. Very unlikely any customer will have a defect in a high grade bike; no matter what brand or model they buy.*


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## real schwinns only

RHankey said:


> Is "carbon fibber" some sort of material that is written about by someone who fibs alot?[/QUOTE carbon is not forever. can you say plastic?Weight has been extremely overemphasized by the hype with the media, and manufacturers have responded with frames, forks and Components that live on the BRINK of FAILURE. If you haven't experienced it first hand or heard of them or seen the photos of snapped frames, forks and cranks, handlebars,stems seat posts, and rims, hubs and worse yet the carnage, and broken bones smashed faces lost teeth and the trip to hospital , you're just out of the loop, because they're out there.("NOTE BROKEN OR LOST BODY PARTS ARE NOT COVERED BY MANUFACTURER") Manufacturers are building to weight, and as a result, the number of FAILURES AND RECALLS in "HIGH-END" frames and forks and components has SKYROCKETED. THAT"S NOT SAFE. SEE THE BUSTED CARBON SITE FOR MORE CARBON FIBER CARNAGE..ON BIKE EUROPE SITE THE CARBON CARNAGE CONTINUES News
> RECALL WAVE Hits Bike Industry
> WATERLOO, US – This week’s announcement of Trek to RECALL 49,000 BICYCLES ' "HOLY COW" worldwide doesn’t come alone. It’s one in a long list of recalls that has been published since January. Is price pressure putting too much stress on quality, or has the bicycle industry lost its control over quality?
> 
> Trek decided for the very costly recall due to possible frame failure. 13 reports of broken frames in the US, causing four minor injuries have prompted this measure.
> 
> Rictchey Design
> In January Ritchey Design announced a recall for its WCS and PRO model non-drive side crank arms (left arm) and the WCS carbon one-bolt seatposts. Reasons were ‘potential safety issues’ meaning that the affected WCS and PRO crank arms may crack while the problems with the WCS carbon single-bolt seatposts are a result of an improper lay-up method used during the manufacturing process.
> 
> Decathlon
> Also in January Decathlon had to take action for three types of B-Twin labelled Mountainbikes: Rockrider 9FR, Rockrider 9.1 and Rockrider 8.1. Brake problems are the cause here. Decathlon sold these bikes between 1 March 2007 and 23 August 2007.
> 
> Cannondale
> Beginning this month Cannondale had to notify its customers of problems with the carbon frame of the Scalpel model (see picture). Glue used on the suspension unit at the back of the frame does not hold and a connection can come loose resulting in cyclist loosing control over the bike. Cannondale received ten reported incidents.
> 
> Stevens Bike
> Stevens Bike had to take precautionary measures for the seatposts of its Oxygen Driver bikes. The ones used between March 2005 and August 2006 might break at top of the seatpost.
> 
> Riese & Müller
> Also Riese & Müller is having troubles with the Schwalbe tubes on its Birdy. The valve of the SV5 tube is put under too much stress when used in combination with the Big Apple on the Birdy. This problem only arises with Birdy’s delivered to dealers since August 3th, 2007.
> 
> Recalls in the EU
> These and other recalls are officially announced via the European Union’s alert system for consumer products that show a safety risk, . More information can be found on the consumer safety products recall list. I COULD ON AND ON AND ON BUT LIFE IS SHORT AND IT'S MAKES ME SAD TO THINK OF ALL THE SENSELESS CARNAGE OVER SAVING A FEW GRAMS OF WEIGHT.what manufacturers will do to make a buck.!!!!!!!! WANT TO SAVE SOME REAL WEIGHT? Take the doughnut out of your mouth. AND GO TRAINING.!!!!! SO I THINK I'LL GO RIDING ON MY HEAVY? RELIABLE, 18LBS IS HEAVY? STAINLESS STEEL REYNOLDS TUBED BICYCLE OR MAYBE MY 30 YEAR OLD JAPANESE BUILT TANGE TUBED RACING BICYCLE weighing in at a.HEAVY 20 LBS? "now i understand why tigers eat there young" quote Rodney Dangerfield


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## hgaskins

> Trek decided for the very costly recall due to possible frame failure.






> Cannondale
> Beginning this month Cannondale had to notify its customers of problems with the carbon frame of the Scalpel model (see picture).



So what you're saying is that we should stay away from carbon frames sold by Trek, Cannondale, and all these other makes for our own safety?:smilewinkgrin:


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## real schwinns only

hgaskins said:


> So what you're saying is that we should stay away from carbon frames sold by Trek, Cannondale, and all these other makes for our own safety?:smilewinkgrin:


what I am saying is why would, company's like Tange , Reynolds, Columbus, True Temper and many other steel tubing and lug manufacturers and frame builders continue to use steel and why don't you ask them why they continue to spend millions of dollars on R&D for steel tubes! The Truth is A modern steel frame weighs 3 to 3.5 pounds. A SUPER light non steel frame that is still ridable is 2.5 pounds. So were are talking about .5 to 1 pounds difference.These are REAL WEIGHTS.. .not the fudged catalog weights or tech sheet weight or the manufactures approximation which depends on frame size or how far there approximation is off .Next proof is in the fine bicycles built by the fine artisans who still build fully equipped bikes with lugged, steel frames that weigh in UNDER 17 pounds. And NO, they don't have to cost $5000 or more. Most of the average modern steel bikes built weigh in between 18 and 19 pounds.Ernesto Colnago frame builder supreme once said in a Interview, In the modern age where we have frames weighing in at under two pounds, "Cycle Sport magazine published an article about Colnago". In the article, the well respected bicycle artisan Supreme Ernesto Colnago is quoted, "I like to sleep at night", one of the reasons why he won't produce an frame under 2.6 pounds.and thinks about 18 lbs is a good weight for a complete bicycle. It must be so he can rest easy at night. Mr. Colnago is not a fan of other materials with that said, it also needs to be said.I also read that Colnago started to build with other frame materials only because of the competition. Colnago is a superior frame designer and seems to work magic with whatever material he uses. He balances safety & cost with desired frame responsiveness. His frames may not be the lightest but you need to weigh factors other than weight when considering a frame. It seems that people want to use weight as a major determinant when comparing frames. 

Any frame can fail with time, but aluminum and carbon--even titanium--are more prone to catastrophic failure. (By the way my friend owns a carbon C50 framed bicycle; He says he still like's his Colnago custom fit steel.Master X-Light Molteni limited bicycle better) 

I think to sum up what Ernesto is saying is that you should choose a proven frame material and design built by credible frame builder or manufacture over an exotic "i.e. super extra light" frame.!!!!.
However, it sounds like he is speaking up on a subject that most bicycle frame manufactures and some frame builders might be avoiding and choosing extra lightweight technology trend and putting the dollar over your safety.Even the" UCI "Union Cycliste International, strictly limits instituted weight limits because of concerns about durability and safety for the pro riders.


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## hgaskins

> what I am saying is why would, company's like Tange , Reynolds, Columbus, True Temper and many other steel tubing and lug manufacturers and frame builders continue to use steel


Because that's what they mostly do?

In the interest of time and space ather than go point by point let me add that I wanted a nice lightweight steel bike, but they were all too expensive.

Show me a link to a decent lightweight steel bike for $1500 or less with at least Shimano 105 or better components, and I'll bite. For that matter show me a decent truly lightweight steel frame for that price. The problem is when you're trying to compare carbon and steel you have to also remember to include the price range someone is willing to pay and then decide which is best. In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon. In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.

There will always be a debate between individuals on make and materials, and in the end everyone is right in their own minds.


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## bikesdirect

hgaskins said:


> Because that's what they mostly do?
> 
> In the interest of time and space ather than go point by point let me add that I wanted a nice lightweight steel bike, but they were all too expensive.
> 
> *Show me a link to a decent lightweight steel bike for $1500 or less with at least Shimano 105 or better components, and I'll bite*. For that matter show me a decent truly lightweight steel frame for that price. The problem is when you're trying to compare carbon and steel you have to also remember to include the price range someone is willing to pay and then decide which is best. In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon. In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.
> 
> There will always be a debate between individuals on make and materials, and in the end everyone is right in their own minds.



Here you go:http://bikesdirect.com/products/mercier/mercier_serpensIX.htm

Of course, this 853 / Ultegra bike is not something we can do all the time

But I can tell interest in steel {and Ti} is increasing
So there will be lots of high grade steel bikes in the sube $1500 price range; in the elatively near future.

In fact, I think there should be availability of nice steel bikes at all price points from $300 to $1500 -- running from 2200 to Sora to Tiagra to 105 to Ultegra [and in time some with Rival]

There is certainly a place in the market for high grade steel, for aluminum, for CF, and for Ti -- no reason there shouldn't be lots of choices for cyclists - without breaking the bank


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## Chaplain1

*Smarter*



bikesdirect said:


> Here you go:http://bikesdirect.com/products/mercier/mercier_serpensIX.htm
> 
> Of course, this 853 / Ultegra bike is not something we can do all the time
> 
> But I can tell interest in steel {and Ti} is increasing
> So there will be lots of high grade steel bikes in the sube $1500 price range; in the elatively near future.
> 
> In fact, I think there should be availability of nice steel bikes at all price points from $300 to $1500 -- running from 2200 to Sora to Tiagra to 105 to Ultegra [and in time some with Rival]
> 
> There is certainly a place in the market for high grade steel, for aluminum, for CF, and for Ti -- no reason there shouldn't be lots of choices for cyclists - without breaking the bank


Mike, I love your posts. They always make me smarter. BTW, I have it on good information my wife bought me a Nemesis for Christmas. Thanks for selling great bikes at an affordable price.

Only bad thing is, I'm probably going to be chomping at the bit to get a new 2011 when you redesign them. Wifey might not go along with upgrading so quickly... I better just keep saving. 

Navy Chaps


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## lancezneighbor

bikesdirect said:


> Some times it is not clear what happened to a frame or fork without inspecting the entire bike. That is why all dealers & manufacturers want to see the complete bike on any warranty claim on a frame or fork.
> 
> See an example where cyclistist was 100% convinced this fork was defect - until the actual cause was pointed out.
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> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ now the case at hand ~~~~~~~~~
> Wonder why the rear der shifted into spokes while rider was going up a hill and had down shifted to low? It helps if you can see the entire bike {remember poster made it clear to me he had never been down on bike and that luckily he did not fall in this case}
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> ~~~~~ the reader can make their own judgement ~~~~~~
> But in this case the customer was sold a new Kestrel Frame for less than half dealer wholesale; was given a new rear and front der; and had labor and return shipping handled for free. That would not happen in 99% of shops in USA. {and in case you are wondering; yes this happens with customers that do not post online also - just did a complete swap of frame from CF to Ti for half cost for customer who got nervous due to CF frame being dinged by rocks}
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> For me - it remains clear that
> 1 - thousands of Moto Immortals sold and I have still not seen one actual defect
> 2 - shipping of a frame back for inspection is $25 - a complete bike is $40 {48 states} - thus it is worth while to inspect complete bikes
> 3 - most customers are very happy that we normally wave the labor charges on warranty claims [even when there is no defects]; that we cover shipping back [even though that is not covered by any warranty] and that we always offer our customers parts, frames, etc at dealer cost [or sometimes even less]
> 4 - I should continue to post 'the rest of the story' pictures on warranty claims after complete inspection of bikes [everyone will find it entertaining]


From looking at the photos I don't get why the fork was damaged. Can you explain how it was damaged and not defective ( I admit I do not know what I am supposed to be looking for).

Those scratches seem pretty minor to me. ALL my bikes (I have 9) including my raciest road bikes have minor scratches like those. I admit I do not baby my bikes and wrap them up in swaddling whenever I am not riding them. I use a bike as it is intended, for recreation and transportation. Leaning a bike against a stucco wall will cause the minor scratches you are pointing out. I really take exception to your claim of having great warranty service. Seems below what I have experienced in 30 years of riding. I am glad you take the time to participate in these forums though.


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## lancezneighbor

real schwinns only said:


> Riese & Müller
> *Also Riese & Müller is having troubles with the Schwalbe tubes on its Birdy. The valve of the SV5 tube is put under too much stress when used in combination with the Big Apple on the Birdy. This problem only arises with Birdy’s delivered to dealers since August 3th, 2007.*
> 
> Recalls in the EU
> These and other recalls are officially announced via the European Union’s alert system for consumer products that show a safety risk, . More information can be found on the consumer safety products recall list. I COULD ON AND ON AND ON BUT LIFE IS SHORT AND IT'S MAKES ME SAD TO THINK OF ALL THE SENSELESS CARNAGE OVER SAVING A FEW GRAMS OF WEIGHT.what manufacturers will do to make a buck.!!!!!!!! WANT TO SAVE SOME REAL WEIGHT? Take the doughnut out of your mouth. AND GO TRAINING.!!!!! SO I THINK I'LL GO RIDING ON MY HEAVY? RELIABLE, 19LBS IS HEAVY? STAINLESS STEEL REYNOLDS TUBED BICYCLE OR MAYBE MY 30 YEAR OLD JAPANESE BUILT TANGE TUBED RACING BICYCLE weighing in at a.HEAVY 20 LBS? "now i understand why tigers eat there young" quote Rodney Dangerfield


The bolded recall is for a tire tube not a carbon tube.


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## real schwinns only

hgaskins said:


> Because that's what they mostly do?
> 
> In the interest of time and space ather than go point by point let me add that I wanted a nice lightweight steel bike, but they were all too expensive.
> 
> Show me a link to a decent lightweight steel bike for $1500 or less with at least Shimano 105 or better components, and I'll bite. For that matter show me a decent truly lightweight steel frame for that price. The problem is when you're trying to compare carbon and steel you have to also remember to include the price range someone is willing to pay and then decide which is best. In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon. In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.
> 
> There will always be a debate between individuals on make and materials, and in the end everyone is right in their own minds.


 Answer Bikes direct The Mercier Serpens.ultegra i Believe, awesome affordable ride or ebay you can find gently used modern steel bikes or new at a fraction of the cost, craigs list the local cycle club sometimes you can get a great deal on last years model, keep searching awesome modern steel bike deals are out there . keep the faith you'll find awesome modern steel steed . modern steel is for real.


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## real schwinns only

hgaskins said:


> Because that's what they mostly do?
> 
> In the interest of time and space ather than go point by point let me add that I wanted a nice lightweight steel bike, but they were all too expensive.
> 
> Show me a link to a decent lightweight steel bike for $1500 or less with at least Shimano 105 or better components, and I'll bite. For that matter show me a decent truly lightweight steel frame for that price. The problem is when you're trying to compare carbon and steel you have to also remember to include the price range someone is willing to pay and then decide which is best. In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon. In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.
> 
> There will always be a debate between individuals on make and materials, and in the end everyone is right in their own minds.


 Answer Bikes direct The Mercier Serpens. 30 speed full ultegra i Believe, awesome affordable ride or ebay you can find gently used modern steel bikes or new at a fraction of the cost, craigs list the local cycle club sometimes you can get a great deal on last years model, keep searching awesome modern steel bike deals are out there . keep the faith you'll find awesome modern steel steed . modern steel is for real.


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## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon. In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.


Wha? A five-pounds-plus weight penalty for a steel bike in the under-$2K class?









Seems pretty unlikely, unless you're comparing apples to oranges, i.e. a steel touring bike vs a pure-racer carbon bike. Even then, it'd be hard.

Because, if the components are the same/similar, the steel frame & fork sure aren't going to weigh 5+ lbs more... again, unless you're talking one _helluva_ an overbuilt expedition touring-style bike. 

But even then, it wouldn't be a fair comparison anyway.

Have you ever owned a nice steel bike, HG?
.


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## hgaskins

> Answer Bikes direct The Mercier Serpens.


I will when you answer mine.

Broken down a bit.



> I wanted a nice lightweight steel bike



Remember I qualified a weight variance in my statement based on your contention of comparative weight and costs. 



> In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference


And



> The Truth is A modern steel frame weighs 3 to 3.5 pounds. A SUPER light non steel frame that is still ridable is 2.5 pounds. So were are talking about .5 to 1 pounds difference.



I knew that I could purchase a steel bike in the under $1500 price range, just not one that was fully equal to the composite bike that I recently purchased (Immortal Pro), and I purchased it from BD.



> I wanted a nice lightweight steel bike, but they were all too expensive.


Now mike since you chimed in you can clear this up by providing the weight of the frame and bike that you just listed. Not that I'm prepared to purchase another bike at this time but others might want to know.


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## worst_shot_ever

For what it's worth, this Summer I bought a super gently used 2005 LeMond Sarthe with Campy Veloce for $900, which has a plat ox frame and weighed 19lbs or so. They sold new for about $1600 I believe. I then swapped the wheels and saddle and am down to 18.2 lbs . Not bad for a steel framed, lower-end groupo bike in perfect condition. That said, I did just buy a top-end CF frame I intend to build up with higher level components over the winter. I don't expect a 5 pound difference from that 19 lbs mark though -- maybe 3 to 3.5 at best.


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## PJ352

Richard.Howe said:


> Deal is, folks generally want to pay absolute bottom dollar, then *throw a blue-face b**ch fit (publicly, I might add) *when they don't get champagne and caviar service.
> 
> I've been tickled with my BD frame and service, including a warranty issue.


Apparently you haven't read through the entire thread, because that's exactly what it took before the OP got more than BD's standard response. BD (Mike) acknowledged as much in an earlier post.


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## hgaskins

> Wha? A five-pounds-plus weight penalty for a steel bike in the under-$2K class?


Read my post and follow the thread a bit. 

My statement was that I couldn't find a decent steel bike for the same price range as a carbon without adding considerable weight. I know that there are some decent lightweight steel frames but the ones I've seen were all considerably more expensive online and especially locally. Lightweight steel was also in rather limited selection. If you have a link to a decent priced light weight steel frame in a bike under 19 pounds then post it. I'm always flexible and ready to be proven wrong.


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## bikesdirect

hgaskins said:


> I knew that I could purchase a steel bike in the under $1500 price range, just not one that was fully equal to the composite bike that I recently purchased (Immortal Pro), and I purchased it from BD.
> 
> 
> 
> Now mike since you chimed in you can clear this up by providing the weight of the frame and bike that you just listed. Not that I'm prepared to purchase another bike at this time but others might want to know.



Thanks for your purchase - you will enjoy the Immortal Pro

The Serpens frame is right at 3.5 lbs [depending on size of course]
I have heard reports of 17.5 lbs to 18.5 lbs on the complete bike.
Not a super light bike - but for the type bike it is designed as; not too heavy either.

generally, you can build a steel bike at about 1 lb heavier than CF or AL

On road bikes; I think AL, Steel, CF, and Ti are all good and the buyer should just have choices
On off road bikes, I do not do CF as I think falling off {and hitting rocks, and trees, and other bikes, and so on} on a rountine basis is not a situation that lends itself to use of CF {this is just my opinion - and lots of other companies clearly do not agree with me}

That said: I think steel is under spec'd in the industry; and that more bikes should be available in high grade steel


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## bikesdirect

PJ352 said:


> Apparently you haven't read through the entire thread, because that's exactly what it took before the OP got more than BD's standard response. BD (Mike) acknowledged as much in an earlier post.



No - not exactly
Our standard response is to quote the warranty and ask the customer to return the bike for inspection and to email their phone number if they would like a call.
Then if they feel they need special attention; the email gets forwarded to me and I call them.
Everyone gets offered help that is beyond the stated warranty.
There have been other customers who got the same great service the OP did; without posting anything or throwing a fit oif any kind.

I do not think I said anywhere that only buyers who pitch a fit or get real upset get offered the bonus service we give to customers who have issues with their bikes.


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## bikesdirect

hgaskins said:


> Read my post and follow the thread a bit.
> 
> My statement was that I couldn't find a decent steel bike for the same price range as a carbon without adding considerable weight. I know that there are some decent lightweight steel frames but the ones I've seen were all considerably more expensive online and especially locally. Lightweight steel was also in rather limited selection. If you have a link to a decent priced light weight steel frame in a bike under 19 pounds then post it. I'm always flexible and ready to be proven wrong.



The problem with high grade steel today; is there are not enough companies building high grade steel bikes. Once there are; then more shops will show them. Then more will sell. Then we can offer sub 20 lb sub $1500 steel road bikes on a rountine basis.

BTW - adding two entry road bikes in 4130 DB next year AND adding two 4130 DB cyclo-cross at basic level also and adding one more touring bike a bit over the Windsor Tourist.
Plus Dawes Deadeye 4130DB SS 29er ATB unloading in a week or so.

So that is 6 extra high grade steel bikes for 2010

I hope in 2011 we can add 6 more 
and I hope all brands add more for 2011 and 2012

There should be as many high grade steel bikes available as Aluminum framed bikes IMO
that would mean hundreds of extra choices for cyclists.


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## PJ352

bikesdirect said:


> No - not exactly
> *Our standard response is to quote the warranty *and ask the customer to return the bike for inspection and to email their phone number if they would like a call.
> Then* if they feel they need special attention; the email gets forwarded to me *and I call them.
> Everyone gets offered help that is beyond the stated warranty.
> There have been other customers who got the same great service the OP did; without posting anything or throwing a fit oif any kind.
> 
> I do not think I said anywhere that only buyers who pitch a fit or get real upset get offered the bonus service we give to customers who have issues with their bikes.


Seems to me that what you've just offered affirms what I (and some others) noted. Standard policy is quoted and IF the customer feels they need special attention, you get involved. In other words, if they settle for BD's substandard warranty service, sucks to be them.

IMO that's not how reputable companies operate. Those companies don't require customers to ship a frame at their expense, move a problem up or go public to get a fair resolution, because they stand behind their products and want satisfied customers.

You want satisfied customers as well, but aren't above taking advantage of those not willing to push for what many consider standard warranty service.


----------



## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> Read my post and follow the thread a bit.
> 
> My statement was that I couldn't find a decent steel bike for the same price range as a carbon *without adding considerable weight*. I know that there are some decent lightweight steel frames but the ones I've seen were all considerably more expensive online and especially locally. Lightweight steel was also in rather limited selection. If you have a link to a decent priced light weight steel frame in a bike under 19 pounds then post it. I'm always flexible and ready to be proven wrong.


Not sure what 'considerable weight' is to you, but if you go custom and build your own bike up Curtlo sells fillet brazed TT S3 frames for around $1k. Can't get much lighter than S3, but there's a rider weight limit of (I think) 180 lbs.


----------



## bikesdirect

PJ352 said:


> Not sure what 'considerable weight' is to you, but if you go custom and build your own bike up Curtlo sells fillet brazed TT S3 frames for around $1k. Can't get much lighter than S3, but there's a rider weight limit of (I think) 180 lbs.



Problem is - *most people* want a complete bike that is competitive in price -- meaning high grade steel should be a bit higher than aluminum and a little less than CF and a lot cheaper than Ti -- therefore a $1000 frame only does not cut it for* most buyers *{after all bikeisland sells a Ti frame with a CF fork for $1000 delivered}

But it can be done: EXAMPLE - most light weight XC MTBs that are CF are $6000 and weigh 22 lbs or 23 lbs or even 24 lbs

So here is a high grade steel version that is 21 lbs [about 1 or 2 lbs lighter than bikes in CF from other companies] and of course; we would sell a bike like this at under $2000



















So there is a place for high grade steel and once the demand is there; I will be all over it
Demand is building slowly and I expect a come-back for this great frame material


----------



## PJ352

bikesdirect said:


> Problem is - most people want a complete bike that is competitive in price -- meaning high grade steel should be a bit higher than aluminum and a little less than CF and a lot cheaper than Ti -- therefore a $1000 frame only does not cut it for most buyers...
> 
> So there is a place for high grade steel and once the demand is there; I will be all over it
> Demand is building slowly and I expect a come-back for this great frame material


That's what remains of your post after I edited out the unpaid advertising. 

My remarks were to hgaskins so we don't know whether or not s/he's interested in a _custom, fillet brazed S3 frame_, but many here are. Coincidentally, you 'ignored' the italicized details in your response comparing to an off the shelf BD bike.

And for the record, I resent the fact that you used my quote to further promote your 'products'. It's probably in the interest of fair play that this forum doesn't ban you, but they should, IMHO.


----------



## bikesdirect

PJ352 said:


> That's what remains of your post after I edited out the unpaid advertising.
> 
> My remarks were to hgaskins so we don't know whether or not s/he's interested in a _custom, fillet brazed S3 frame_, but many here are. Coincidentally, you 'ignored' the italicized details in your response comparing to an off the shelf BD bike.
> 
> And for the record, I resent the fact that you used my quote to further promote your 'products'. It's probably in the interest of fair play that this forum doesn't ban you, but they should, IMHO.



You are correct - we do not know what hgaskins wants - except that he/she posted a price level of interest

Most buyers buy production bikes; not custom bikes; but there are those that want custom and if a $1000 steel frame makes them happy; I am all for it

I no longer do one up custom frames and focus on the buyers who want a high grade bike that is under $2000 for a complete bike [true we sell a good number from $2000 to $3000 - but our focus is under $2000]

I think the numbers speak for themselves - most buyers want complete bikesnot frames that are $1000 up for the frame only. However, there is a place in the market for all types of offerings at prices that all can feel good about.


----------



## hgaskins

> Not sure what 'considerable weight' is to you, but if you go custom and build your own bike up Curtlo sells fillet brazed TT S3 frames for around $1k. Can't get much lighter than S3, but there's a rider weight limit of (I think) 180 lbs.





> You are correct - we do not know what hgaskins wants - except that he/she posted a price level of interest


I gave my criteria in an earlier post and even stated that I ended by purchasing the Immortal Pro for $1295 because it most closely fit my budget and wants. So my needs have been filled for now.

This diversion began as a bit of humor because a member posted a series of issues with carbon frames by Trek, Cannondale, and others and I thought it was a little ironic and even funny that after all the ribbing that goes on in the Motobecane forum regarding the product that not a single BD bike was listed among them. It took a serious turn regarding Steel and I was simply stating that from my shopping experience steel was consistently more expensive, Perhaps when the price comes down a bit I'll move on to a steel frame but for now I'm not entirely unhappy with the Immortal carbon frame.

I fully intend to purchase another bike in a year for touring and so far I've honed in on the Surly Long Haul Trucker which is both a steel allow and heavy. 

BTW, I am definitely a guy.


----------



## twobournes

PJ352 said:


> IMO that's not how reputable companies operate. Those companies don't require customers to ship a frame at their expense, move a problem up or go public to get a fair resolution, because they stand behind their products and want satisfied customers.
> 
> You want satisfied customers as well, but aren't above taking advantage of those not willing to push for what many consider standard warranty service.



I cannot speak for every company and every situation, but I have dealt with Trek on a parts warranty issues and watched two friends each go through the process of frame replacement with Trek. In my case they tried to shirk the responsibility of poor craftsmanship on their bontrager seat that came apart at the seams after only a few months of riding (for those who do not know bontrager = Trek). On the frame replacement situations Trek took care of one guy and offered the other a horrible deal and he had to argue his case in order to get a straight up frame replacement. 

This is only the two cases I have witnessed, i will add that the owner of that shop told me that Trek regularly replaces with no bickering. I only bring up this example to make the point that even the largest bicycle companies need some prodding from time to time.


----------



## hgaskins

> Thanks for your purchase - you will enjoy the Immortal Pro


I have thus far enjoyed it very much. I don't ride in city streets, especially since I live in Tampa which is among the top 5 most dangerous rides in the country. We do have a few decent bike trails that are nicely paved but they still produce a fine fast pulsed vibration. My major concern wasn't weight but it seemed like a decent criteria to add to a list of wants. I have an aluminum frame Roadbike with carbon fiber forks and it road decently but after about 7 or 8 miles the road buzz numbed my hands which I found annoying. The Immortal Pro has completely eliminated that issue and has proven to be quite a responsive bike as well and if I desire to make it lighter I can do that as well.l I will of course be replacing some of the parts as have many others, but for now it rides just fine.


----------



## PlatyPius

After reading the first page, I was prepared to post about crappy Motobecane bikes. I still think that the dropout/hanger area is weak.
However, after seeing the pictures that Mike posted of the complete bike, it's obvious to me that that bike has been up and down more often than a Detroit hooker.
Had the OP brought that bike into any bike shop in the country and demanded a warranty replacement, he would have been laughed at, ignored, or told "No way." He would have been given a crash replacement form, sent on his way, and then called once the shop had called the bike company about CR options.


----------



## SystemShock

SystemShock said:


> summarized: 5+ lb weight penalty for steel in sub-$2K? Unlikely, in an apples-to-apples comparison anyway.





hgaskins said:


> My statement was that I couldn't find a decent steel bike for the same price range as a carbon without adding considerable weight. I know that there are some decent lightweight steel frames but the ones I've seen were all considerably more expensive online and especially locally. Lightweight steel was also in rather limited selection. If you have a link to a decent priced light weight steel frame in a bike under 19 pounds then post it. I'm always flexible and ready to be proven wrong.


_________________

Well, that's not all of your statement, however. You also said this:



hgaskins said:


> In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon.* In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.*


 Glad we cleared that up.

I believe that Mike (think that's his name) already linked to one of the BD steel bikes, which might make your 19 lb criteria, or be able to be modified under your budget to make it? 

(btw, since your bar for a steel sub-$2k bike is set at 19 lbs, you're kind of already acknowledging that your 5+ lb weight difference guess is off, because I sure don't see any legitimate 14 lb sub-$2K carbon bikes out there.  )

You seem to luv BD, so that Serpens should be right up your alley:



bikesdirect said:


> The Serpens frame is right at 3.5 lbs [depending on size of course]
> I have heard reports of 17.5 lbs to 18.5 lbs on the complete bike
> 
> ...*generally, you can build a steel bike at about 1 lb heavier than CF or AL*


Now, aside from the fact that Mike seems to have blown your '5 or more lbs difference' guess out of the water, he's also got a fully built-up Serpens with Ultegra for $1300... guess we'd have to ask Mike, hey, does that come in at 19 lbs or at least close? 

Even if it does come in a bit above (my guess), we'd still have $700 to play with below your $2000 limit... certainly we could buy some aftermarket items, a wheelset, etc that would lighten the bike considerably, without busting your budget. 

I would also say that even if the stock Serpens doesn't quite hit 19 lbs w/out some aftermarket love, that's a good goal for BD in the near future... I have little doubt that a steel Rival bike, with the right parts mix, could hit 19 lbs stock and for under $2K. 

That would be a potentially very compelling bike, assuming BD doesn't blow it in terms of geometry, tire clearances, general utility, etc. 
.


----------



## real schwinns only

SystemShock said:


> Wha? A five-pounds-plus weight penalty for a steel bike in the under-$2K class?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems pretty unlikely, unless you're comparing apples to oranges, i.e. a steel touring bike vs a pure-racer carbon bike. Even then, it'd be hard.
> 
> Because, if the components are the same/similar, the steel frame & fork sure aren't going to weigh 5+ lbs more... again, unless you're talking one _helluva_ an overbuilt expedition touring-style bike.
> 
> But even then, it wouldn't be a fair comparison anyway.
> 
> Have you ever owned a nice steel bike, HG?
> .


 I don't believe HG has had the privilege of owning a fine well made hand built steel steed,.Try it and you might see why so have returned to steel,even a high carbon steel frame and fork with the same parts not going to have that much of a weight difference.


----------



## hgaskins

> Well, that's not all of your statement, however. You also said this:





> *In the under $2000 range for a complete bike you're going to be talking about more than a 1 or 2 pound difference between steel and carbon. In fact I'm going to guess probably 5 pounds or more.*





> Glad we cleared that up.


Only if you slice things up and take them out of context which you seem to do with every opportunity. Read everything and then do your best to comprehend it. I've not changed any point in my posts because everything that I stated from the start is true based on my experience shopping.


----------



## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> Read everything and then do your best to comprehend it.


Tsk. Pissy. :frown2:

In any case, all I did was lay your statement out, exactly as you said it. 

Do you now believe otherwise from what you said?  
.


----------



## The Green Hour

PJ352 said:


> Seems to me that what you've just offered affirms what I (and some others) noted. Standard policy is quoted and IF the customer feels they need special attention, you get involved. In other words, if they settle for BD's substandard warranty service, sucks to be them.
> 
> IMO that's not how reputable companies operate. Those companies don't require customers to ship a frame at their expense, move a problem up or go public to get a fair resolution, because they stand behind their products and want satisfied customers.
> 
> You want satisfied customers as well, but aren't above taking advantage of those not willing to push for what many consider standard warranty service.


And all this holds true on a bike that was crashed!! Look at the pictures....


----------



## hgaskins

> In any case, all I did was lay your statement out, exactly as you said it.


Along with a few omissions that affected the entire substance of my post, but who needs every line in context to get the point? Except perhaps everyone!:idea:


----------



## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> Along with a few omissions that affected the entire substance of my post, but who needs every line in context to get the point? Except perhaps everyone!


I don't think there's anything controversial there. You guessed a five-pound-plus difference. Those aren't my words, they're yours.

Or is five pounds somehow not five pounds anymore? :lol:

HG, are you a lawyer by profession?
.


----------



## hgaskins

> I don't think there's anything controversial there. You guessed a five-pound-plus difference. Those aren't my words, they're yours.


No one mentioned controversy. LOL 

Actually it wasn't a guess but more of an estimate based on personal empirical data. The estimate was based on actual efforts to find a steel framed bike (not just a frame) that was reasonably light and of decent quality, but the offerings left more questions than answers. In the end I made what I believe was the best choice for my money.

If it will make you feel any better I am looking at a touring bike for a couple of summers from now and I'm homing in on the Surly Long Haul Trucker frame which should attract my refrigerator magnets.


----------



## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> No one mentioned controversy. LOL. Actually it wasn't a guess but more of an estimate based on personal empirical data.


Well, judging from how up in arms you seemed to be, it seemed controversial to you, if no one else, lol. Which was kinda my point. :wink5:



> If it will make you feel any better I am looking at a touring bike for a couple of summers from now and I'm homing in on the Surly Long Haul Trucker frame which should attract my refrigerator magnets.


Decent choice. Perhaps it was your research into steel _touring_ bikes that led you conclude that steel in general was heavier than it really was. 

Other makes you could look at for steel touring bikes would be Rivendell, Kogswell, and even Trek (the 520). Everyone seems to like the Surly LHT, but it is a tank. It's something that could take you to the ends of the earth and bring you back just fine. It's quite cheap, too.
.


----------



## toadbiker

hey rso - 
you got me interested in steel

please list some links where I can purchase a 17 lbs steel road bike equipped with Ultegra 6700 and Mavic Ksyrium wheels for under $2,000 delivered

Of course, lower cost is better

thanks very much


----------



## farmer_brown

I know this is way off topic from the original post, but the most recent discussions were about steel frames. What is desirable about steel frames? I know very little. Thanks


----------



## covenant

Durability and many folks like the feel of a well designed classic steel frame.


----------



## real schwinns only

Bikes direct is a good place to start they have a 853 Reynolds Mercier Serpens 30 speed ultegra awesome price. and ebay and your local cycle club news letter classifieds my Friends have found some awesome deals on modern steel steeds.one friend found a one year old Carrera LIMA 132 full campy record and at 1200 bucks it was a awesome deal quite possibly the deal of the century!!!!.you can find them there out there and you'll get to own a well made bicycle that you might have thought was out of your price range. good luck looking


----------



## SystemShock

toadbiker said:


> hey rso -
> you got me interested in steel
> 
> please list some links where I can purchase a 17 lbs steel road bike equipped with Ultegra 6700 and Mavic Ksyrium wheels for under $2,000 delivered
> 
> Of course, lower cost is better
> 
> thanks very much


I'm not realschwinnsonly, but as a sidebar, why 6700? The new SRAM Force group is quite a bit lighter (especially in BB30), for the same or less money.

And Ksyriums wheels have some of the worst aerodynamics out there:


----------



## covenant

SystemShock said:


> I'm not realschwinnsonly, but as a sidebar, why 6700? The new SRAM Force group is quite a bit lighter (especially in BB30), for the same or less money.
> 
> And Ksyriums wheels have some of the worst aerodynamics out there:


Yeah, but they look nice and have the reputation of being bullet proof, which counts for something. Who cares about aerodynamics anyway, outside of doing TTs?


----------



## SystemShock

covenant said:


> Yeah, but they look nice and have the reputation of being bullet proof, which counts for something. Who cares about aerodynamics anyway, outside of doing TTs?


A surprisingly large number of ppl, judging from aero wheelset sales.

Out here in the Bay Area, it's hard to date a girl who hasn't done a triathlon. 

And have you noticed how a lot of the high-end bikes these days come with fairly aggressive aero wheels? :idea:
.


----------



## pacificaslim

SystemShock said:


> A surprisingly large number of ppl, judging from aero wheelset sales.
> 
> Out here in the Bay Area, it's hard to date a girl who hasn't done a triathlon.


And absolutely none of them ride at 30mph, the speed that chart represents. I wonder what that chart looks like for lower speeds like 40kph or 35kph? I suspect much, much less difference between the wheelsets.


----------



## 20sMotoSpirit

covenant said:


> Yeah, but they look nice and have the reputation of being bullet proof, which counts for something. Who cares about aerodynamics anyway, outside of doing TTs?


 The reputation of being bulletproof is relative. The AL spokes tend to break very easily. If the AL blades become twisted they snap even easier.

for your steel bike with cool parts - buy the Le Champion SRAM bike for $1700 and get a classic Trek steel race frame off ebay.

Frames that I suggest: (Basic Trek 400, 510, 610 ) If you can find a Trek 170 in your size BUY IT! the 170 is an EPIC frame

http://www.vintage-trek.com/refurbish.htm

http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_galleryNels.htm


----------



## SystemShock

pacificaslim said:


> And absolutely none of them ride at 30mph, the speed that chart represents. I wonder what that chart looks like for lower speeds like 40kph or 35kph? I suspect much, much less difference between the wheelsets.


No doubt it'd be less, but, a wheel that's got crappy aerodynamics at 50kph does not sound like it'd suddenly be an aero champion at 45 or 40 or 35 kph. Look at something like the R-SYS... big, fat carbon spokes. Those aerodynamics aren't getting much better relative to the competition, no matter how slow you go. All they can do is suck less.

If the goal is to dismiss small differences, well then, the carbon fiber bike crowd should all ditch their CF bikes, since being a couple pounds lighter really doesn't make a big difference, considering the rider weighs 150-200 lbs or more.

Might as well ditch 9-, 10- and 11-spd drivetrains while we're at it... 8-spd was fine, and the chains lasted a lot longer. Starting to see the picture?

The funny thing is, I can definitely see the arguments on both sides. I could happily ride ultra-retro equipment, at least some of the time (and in fact am planning to, with an upcoming bike purchase), as well as the latest and greatest. But most ppl these days seem to really be in the latest and greatest camp.
.


----------



## twobournes

PJ352 said:


> It's probably in the interest of fair play that this forum doesn't ban you, but they should, IMHO.


Wow! That is a bold statement. I own 1 bike purchased from BD and 6 purchased from a Trek dealer, who is now out of business leaving me without a 'go to' person. i would love to see a corporate Trek representative on here answering questions for customers and answering for their company practices (as in warranty situations in which the customer feels slighted - which is how this thread began). I would love to have access to the CEO of Trek in such a public forum as this; and I would even accept a bit of unabashed advertising. In this case I would say the advertising was at least pertinent to the conversation. But even if its not I am willing to overlook it, if it means access to someone who can actually get something done for me; if need be.

I have disagreed with Mike's conclusions in the past regarding warranties, etc... (but I am biased toward the customer because that's the category I fall into). However, to suggest he be banned because in the midst of defending his company and practices someone asks about a bike that he offers and he tells them about it...Why did you not get upset when another poster suggested a vintage Trek? Say what you will about Mike and BD, the guy believes in his products and promotes them accordingly. After taking the beating that BD takes (in this thread alone it has been savage at times) and coming back for more I can't imagine penalizing the guy for making a suggestion that he thinks will help only because it also promotes one of his products.


----------



## covenant

SystemShock said:


> No doubt it'd be less, but, a wheel that's got crappy aerodynamics at 50kph does not sound like it'd suddenly be an aero champion at 45 or 40 or 35 kph. Look at something like the R-SYS... big, fat carbon spokes. Those aerodynamics aren't getting much better relative to the competition, no matter how slow you go. All they can do is suck less.
> 
> If the goal is to dismiss small differences, well then, the carbon fiber bike crowd should all ditch their CF bikes, since being a couple pounds lighter really doesn't make a big difference, considering the rider weighs 150-200 lbs or more.
> 
> Might as well ditch 9-, 10- and 11-spd drivetrains while we're at it... 8-spd was fine, and the chains lasted a lot longer. Starting to see the picture?
> 
> The funny thing is, I can definitely see the arguments on both sides. I could happily ride ultra-retro equipment, at least some of the time (and in fact am planning to, with an upcoming bike purchase), as well as the latest and greatest. But most ppl these days seem to really be in the latest and greatest camp.
> .


I suddenly feel like Grant Peterson....


----------



## PJ352

twobournes said:


> Wow! That is a bold statement. I own 1 bike purchased from BD and 6 purchased from a Trek dealer, who is now out of business leaving me without a 'go to' person. i would love to see a corporate Trek representative on here answering questions for customers and answering for their company practices (as in warranty situations in which the customer feels slighted - which is how this thread began). I would love to have access to the CEO of Trek in such a public forum as this; and I would even accept a bit of unabashed advertising. In this case I would say the advertising was at least pertinent to the conversation. But even if its not I am willing to overlook it, if it means access to someone who can actually get something done for me; if need be.
> 
> I have disagreed with Mike's conclusions in the past regarding warranties, etc... (but I am biased toward the customer because that's the category I fall into). However, to suggest he be banned because in the midst of defending his company and practices someone asks about a bike that he offers and he tells them about it...Why did you not get upset when another poster suggested a vintage Trek? Say what you will about Mike and BD, the guy believes in his products and promotes them accordingly. After taking the beating that BD takes (in this thread alone it has been savage at times) and coming back for more I can't imagine penalizing the guy for making a suggestion that he thinks will help only because it also promotes one of his products.


My statement may be bold, but yours are more opinion than fact. One the positive side, it allows me the opportunity to detail why I offered what I did. 

No other 'rep' or CEO or_ pin a name on the guy _here comes anywhere near BD Mike in promoting their goods - and at _every_ opportunity. There's a guy (ChasLook IIRC) that periodically monitors the LOOK forum and assists members with any problems/ issues. Period. No singing the praises of LOOK's or bashing the competition (as Mike has done). Then there are the two or three custom builders that occasionally make an appearance and inject their experiences with members, but it's usually the members that reference the builders work, not the builder themself. BD doesn't come close to having the professionalism that all mentioned do.

And that just scratches the surface.

In the past couple of years I've had numerous conversations with Mike here. Do a search and you'll find them. In them, he's made statements that are simply ludicrous, like BD being better able to fit someone than LBS's. Think about that. Who does that help? A noob who might actually believe him? That's what he's hopiing, I fear. So when he's done that (and I call him on it) he starts his little marketing dance, ignoring key points but taking opportunities to tout his products (like he did here about 6 times). Then there's the chasing down the noobs in the beginners forum when they're teetering on which bike to buy. That's not helping, that simply being shady, but I'm sure you'll see it differently. 

And speaking of those products, he'll tell you that his frames are of the same quality as the top competitors (Trek/ Specialized, to name two) and made in either the same (or 'better') factories. So if you haven't done so already, in your spare time check out a BD alu frame. Then go look at the Trek 2 series or Specialized Allez and let me know what frames clearly have more quality construction. I think you already know the answer.

As far as my not taking issue with the poster suggesting a vintage Trek for the OP, unless the poster was selling it, s/he has no vested interest in it, so your example isn't comparable to BD Mike's practices. OTOH, if they were, then IMO a PM would've been the appropriate mechanism to pursue the sale.

Regarding your comment about LBS's gone bad and lack of support from other companies. I'm not a Trek aficionado by any means, but I do know that they have mechanisms in place to assist/ support their customers. One is called Up the Road where people can write in with questions, another is a FAQ support mini-site that you can submit questions... similar can be said of Specialized, so there are avenues available.

Lastly, I'd guess you'll view this post as anti-BD, but actually it's not BD that I'm negative about. There's clearly a market for his goods. It's his numerous unsubstantiated (and yes, ludicrous) claims that bother me, because many are aimed at a consumer that might not know any better. And that's just wrong.


----------



## SystemShock

covenant said:


> I suddenly feel like Grant Peterson....


And like Grant, you're not wrong. Rationally-speaking, the differences _are_ pretty small, unless one is competing.

It's just that the marketing boys have won the war... a lot of ppl do care about those small differences these days, and buy accordingly. So, if you're one of _those_ ppl, and you're dropping several hundred on a wheelset, why not get one that doesn't have almost the worst aerodynamics on the market?
.


----------



## pacificaslim

SystemShock said:


> No doubt it'd be less, but, a wheel that's got crappy aerodynamics at 50kph does not sound like it'd suddenly be an aero champion at 45 or 40 or 35 kph.


Possibly. But aerodynamics is simply much less important at those lower speeds so the advantage of one wheel over the other is much less.


----------



## PJ352

The Green Hour said:


> And all this holds true on a bike that was crashed!! Look at the pictures....


I saw the pics and know the bike was (at least) dumped. 

Reread my post. It was in response to...

(1) Mike's post basically admitting that phone reps quote standard warranty policy (until disputed, of course) and...

(2) The fact that he (Mike) often sings the praises of BD over LBS's/ the big name bike companies, _but _customers shoulder the burden of return shipping (among many other things, like sizing when dealing with BD.


----------



## SystemShock

pacificaslim said:


> Possibly. But aerodynamics is simply much less important at those lower speeds so the advantage of one wheel over the other is much less.


Even at moderate speeds, wind resistance is the majority of what a cyclist is fighting against, assuming a reasonably flat road.
.


----------



## covenant

SystemShock said:


> Even at moderate speeds, wind resistance is the majority of what a cyclist is fighting against, assuming a reasonably flat road.
> .


But most of the resistance comes from our bodies rather than the bike....but we already agree anyway so the point is moot.


----------



## bikesdirect

PJ352 said:


> Lastly, I'd guess you'll view this post as anti-BD, but actually it's not BD that I'm negative about. There's clearly a market for his goods. It's his numerous unsubstantiated (and yes, ludicrous) claims that bother me, because many are aimed at a consumer that might not know any better. And that's just wrong.



This is a perfect example of blanket statement with no direct facts to back it up.

You should easily be able to find a direct quote by me that is an issue - correct? you could show the exact date and thread rigfht? Why not post that instead of saying I have made unsubstantiated claims?

I may have made a mistake in a post after the hunderds of posts I have made - but I sure do not know what you are talking about.

Normally I use qualifiers: such as

Many buyers are sized better by us than by many dealers.
Often used bikes are a worse deal for a newbie than an online purchase.
Lots of buyers would spend more money returning a bike for warranty claim inspection than the cost of shipping to us via UPS.
Lots of IBDs size customers based on their inventory.
We use the same frame and assembly plants that brands like Trek, Specialized, and Felt use on many of their models.

I tend to avoid words like ALL, ALWAYS, EVERYONE, etc

Please point out a direct quote where I was incorrect; then if you are correct; I can admit it and fix it.


----------



## PlatyPius

bikesdirect said:


> This is a perfect example of blanket statement with no direct facts to back it up.
> 
> You should easily be able to find a direct quote by me that is an issue - correct? you could show the exact date and thread rigfht? Why not post that instead of saying I have made unsubstantiated claims?
> 
> I may have made a mistake in a post after the hunderds of posts I have made - but I sure do not know what you are talking about.
> 
> Normally I use qualifiers: such as
> 
> Many buyers are sized better by us than by many dealers.
> Often used bikes are a worse deal for a newbie than an online purchase.
> Lots of buyers would spend more money returning a bike for warranty claim inspection than the cost of shipping to us via UPS.
> Lots of IBDs size customers based on their inventory.
> We use the same frame and assembly plants that brands like Trek, Specialized, and Felt use on many of their models.
> 
> I tend to avoid words like ALL, ALWAYS, EVERYONE, etc
> 
> Please point out a direct quote where I was incorrect; then if you are correct; I can admit it and fix it.


Just noticed that it has been changed on the site. NM


----------



## twobournes

You are correct that my vintage trek reference is only valid if the person had a vested interest in the sale of the bike - that was my mistake and I apologize for that.

I cannot and will not defend Mike or BD against the claims you make. I do not know if they are valid or not, but I will err on the side that they *are* indeed valid. This still does not qualify banning a user because you think he is giving out bad information. If the information is blatantly false (not just false in one person's opinion) then they should be taken to task for that information, and it appears that many ppl do this on a regular basis. however, saying that one method of buying a bike is superior to another is a purely subjective statement, an opinion (more or less). What you are suggesting sounds a great deal like censorship, and I am not a fan of it in any form.


----------



## The Green Hour

PJ352 said:


> I saw the pics and know the bike was (at least) dumped.
> 
> Reread my post. It was in response to...
> 
> (1) Mike's post basically admitting that phone reps quote standard warranty policy (until disputed, of course) and...
> 
> (2) The fact that he (Mike) often sings the praises of BD over LBS's/ the big name bike companies, _but _customers shoulder the burden of return shipping (among many other things, like sizing when dealing with BD.


BD and the other vendors like him are different than the traditional brick and mortar LBS.
They are fairly new to the industry and will experience some growing pains with the buying public (us) that may be used to dealing with "traditional" shops. I think a little more understanding on how these business actually work would be in order and could clear up some misconceptions this board has against BD and the like.

I have no fight in this either way. For me BD is no different than the main bike giants that sell cheap chinese frames with Specialized, etc. slapped on them and charge 2 times as much as BD does. If you look at it this way, who is the evil vendor.

No wonder they give you a good warranty.


----------



## PJ352

twobournes said:


> You are correct that my vintage trek reference is only valid if the person had a vested interest in the sale of the bike - that was my mistake and I apologize for that.
> 
> I cannot and will not defend Mike or BD against the claims you make. I do not know if they are valid or not, but I will err on the side that they *are* indeed valid. This still does not qualify banning a user because you think he is giving out bad information. If the information is blatantly false (not just false in one person's opinion) then they should be taken to task for that information, and it appears that many ppl do this on a regular basis. however, saying that one method of buying a bike is superior to another is a purely subjective statement, an opinion (more or less). What you are suggesting sounds a great deal like censorship, and I am not a fan of it in any form.


Apology accepted. :thumbsup: 

I don't disagree with anything you've offered, and didn't advocate banning a member merely because they offered false or inaccurate info. We've all done so, whether inadvertently/ out of ignorance or maybe just being over zealous to 'help', _at times_. 

Why I offered it in Mike's case is because (IMO) he's misusing his membership here by promoting his products (not to be confused with promoting buying online) and making ludicrous statements in an effort to influence unsuspecting buyers (see below). Does he_ always _do so,_ never _offering any advice of value? No, but he does so with enough regularity that I see it as abuse. If you (or others) don't agree, so be it. 

BTW, everything I've offered relating to Mike's claims are true. As I said, if anyone doubts me all they have to do is search his posts. It took me all of about 3 minutes to find the one stating:

_"Fit is another story, but most customers are more likely to get proper fit buying online than in a shop". _ Posted 8/29/09.

Now, seeing that he runs an online bike business, doesn't regularly see his customers, they pick their size (crossing their fingers) from a pull down window, he doesn't offer stem swaps to assist in fit.... and on and on, but you get the idea. His comment is absurd. 

The icing on the cake is that when customers contact BD about sizing problems, they're told the customer is responsible for sizing and has been shipped what's been ordered. I'm sure Mike will have a good response to this, but members have posted these experiences, so again, do a search.

Lastly, I'm glad you aren't a fan of censorship, because it saves my butt!! :thumbsup:


----------



## SystemShock

Mike does consistently say things that are self-serving to his economic interest... I think anyone who's reasonably honest about the matter has noticed this. 

Basically, some variation of buying on Craigslist is bad, buying online is good, test rides are misleading (because we can't offer 'em, lol), we can fit you as good as an LBS, etc. etc. It is kinda uncool. 

I think he could highlight the strengths of BD, without saying some of the semi-ridiculous things he does. As in, just be perfectly honest about what the strengths and weaknesses of buying from BD are. I think everyone would respect that. And consumers love total honesty. Probably would help sales more than it'd hurt 'em.

But of course, the second you say something like that, you likely get attacked for being a 'BD hater', 'Trek lover', whatever. It's become a rather polarizing issue.
.


----------



## PJ352

The Green Hour said:


> BD and the other vendors like him are different than the traditional brick and mortar LBS.
> They are fairly new to the industry and will experience some growing pains with the buying public (us) that may be used to dealing with "traditional" shops. I think a little more understanding on how these business actually work would be in order and could clear up some misconceptions this board has against BD and the like.
> 
> I have no fight in this either way. For me BD is no different than the main bike giants that sell cheap chinese frames with Specialized, etc. slapped on them and charge 2 times as much as BD does. If you look at it this way, who is the evil vendor.
> 
> No wonder they give you a good warranty.


You use your criteria as a consumer, and I'll use mine. I don't subscribe to the need to understand how businesses work when I contemplate purchases. Based on my priorities/ criteria, I buy or I don't. And speaking of those priorities, one of them is sizing/ fit assistance. Reputable LBS's recognize this and accomodate their customers. Online dealers (at best) show a casual interest, providing near useless online fit calculators (or similar) or provide a table with frame size recommendations based on height/ standover. And in the case of BD, I've seen instances where the frame sizes listed didn't match the model(s) in question. Now that takes a _large_ dose of 'understanding', IMHO.  

As far as comparing a BD frame to one of the many name brand manufacturers, I suggest you do so. In person. You won't need good eyes to see the quality frames from BD's standard offerings.


----------



## twobournes

I'm sure Mike will defend the sizing argument because [1]they offer assistance with sizing (you send them your measurements along with bike sizes you've ridden in the past and the how they fit). Based on that info the company helps you pick a size. Now this alone does not mean that you will certainly do better than you would at the LBS, but I just read a post by him in this very thread inferring that [2]some bike shops size ppl based on inventory. 

I do not know how affective the process they use is because I used the geometry of my old bike (Trek Portland) and matched that almost exactly with that of my new bike (Kestrel rt800) both bikes geos are available online. So the first point is arguable, but I have experienced first hand a shop trying to sell me a smaller bike in order to move inventory. I have also been to a reputable shop that would not even discuss selling me a demo bike because it was one size too small (the same size as the bike the aforementioned shop tried to pawn off on me btw). Of course a reputable shop will NOT do this, but when I first started shopping for a bicycle I did not know the difference and I would imagine very few new bike buyers do. 

Therefore saying that his statement is absurd is another subjective assessment. I would agree with the argument that you are probably more likely to get an accurate fit from a reputable lbs, but one could easily make valid points to discount that argument. I would also allow that new cyclists are better off buying at a LBS primarily because I believe that you *should* be able to trade the bike in if it is improperly sized. However, that is still my opinion and is certainly not beyond dispute.


----------



## hgaskins

> Mike does consistently say things that are self-serving to his economic interest... I think anyone who's reasonably honest about the matter has noticed this.


Why on Earth would a business man do such a thing and with the audacity to actually admit it in public (bikesdirect)? Is nothing sacred anymore? If things don't change we soon could have teachers actually teaching in the classroom. Perhaps we should warn people that he works for "bikesdirect." That will make everyone safer.:wink5: 



> Basically, some variation of buying on Craigslist is bad, buying online is good, test rides are misleading (because we can't offer 'em, lol), we can fit you as good as an LBS, etc. etc. It is kinda uncool.


Some of these do in fact appear biased and requires some individual thought except buying online which is good. I buy thousands of dollars of computer hardware online because it saves me sizable sums of money.

Buying from BD or any online merchant should be made after some careful deliberation, but if one gets it right the savings are worth it.

I doubt that anything Mike's said is going to convince his naysayers to become clients, and nothing his naysayers have said is gone to stop those who will be clients from being his clients. 

Someone made a statement to the effect that he wished that companies such as Trek would have some of their representatives online. Are we certain that they don't simply because we haven't identified one, because they haven't publicly announced it?


----------



## PJ352

twobournes said:


> I'm sure Mike will defend the sizing argument because [1]they offer assistance with sizing (you send them your measurements along with bike sizes you've ridden in the past and the how they fit). Based on that info the company helps you pick a size. Now this alone does not mean that you will certainly do better than you would at the LBS, but I just read a post by him in this very thread inferring that [2]some bike shops size ppl based on inventory.
> 
> I do not know how affective the process they use is because I used the geometry of my old bike (Trek Portland) and matched that almost exactly with that of my new bike (Kestrel rt800) both bikes geos are available online. So the first point is arguable, but I have experienced first hand a shop trying to sell me a smaller bike in order to move inventory. I have also been to a reputable shop that would not even discuss selling me a demo bike because it was one size too small (the same size as the bike the aforementioned shop tried to pawn off on me btw). Of course a reputable shop will NOT do this, but when I first started shopping for a bicycle I did not know the difference and I would imagine very few new bike buyers do.
> 
> Therefore saying that his statement is absurd is another subjective assessment. I would agree with the argument that you are probably more likely to get an accurate fit from a reputable lbs, but one could easily make valid points to discount that argument. I would also allow that new cyclists are better off buying at a LBS primarily because I believe that you *should* be able to trade the bike in if it is improperly sized. However, that is still my opinion and is certainly not beyond dispute.


At the risk of (yet again, or maybe... _still_) voicing only my opinions, I think the sizing assistance you've outlined is as useless as those online fit calculators. Luckily (for you) _your_ method of comparing the geo of your bike versus the bikes in question was far superior, so kudo's to you for doing so. And regarding BD's sizing assistance, I've already noted that members have posted negative experiences when sizing was guessed wrong, so ultimately BD holds the consumer responsible. Reputable bike shops _take_ that responsibility, gladly.

RE: LBS's. Sure there are good, better and not so good and I've experienced all of them. Same for any business. But I did notice that BD has NO phone numbers (save for a fax #) listed on their website. Now, I'm sure Mike will tell us that emails make for a better tracking mechanism, thus better assisting customers, but that's not what the customers frustrated with their inability to contact BD are saying. 

Also, if you do a google search on *bikes direct reviews*, you'll see some less than stellar entries. Some are downright scary. But (and I'll admit to sarcasm here) those people are probably just BD haters taking the opportunity to bash BD, like the guy that had his CC charged and no bike was shipped. Or another that received a damaged bike and was told to go buy touch up paint. Coincidentally, Mike posted on that thread, but 'neglected' to address that posters comment.  

There's a history here and the internet makes it almost effortless to find - for those who choose to look.


----------



## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> Why on Earth would a business man do such a thing and with the audacity to actually admit it in public (bikesdirect)? Is nothing sacred anymore?


The sad thing is, you do have to kinda spell out the self-interest issue just like that... because odds are some BD fanboi will shout "a thousand times no!" even to observations which seem perfectly obvious to you and I. 

Mike's in business to do business, period, _most_ of us get that. What isn't cool is when you become such a sock puppet to that that you really can't say anything even remotely objective.



> S_ome of these do in fact appear biased and requires some individual thought except buying online which is good. I buy thousands of dollars of computer hardware online because it saves me sizable sums of money._


Sure. But ya don't have to get fitted to a computer (I hope).



> _Buying from BD or any online merchant should be made after some careful deliberation, but if one gets it right the savings are worth it.
> 
> I doubt that anything Mike's said is going to convince his naysayers to become clients, and nothing his naysayers have said is gone to stop those who will be clients from being his clients._


I don't think we're in fundamental disagreement on most of that. Ppl who don't dig Mike or the way he does things will have only a small impact on his business, and Mike's constant salesmanship (some would say shilling) is only going to convince a few fence-sitters.
.


----------



## bikesdirect

PJ352 said:


> BTW, everything I've offered relating to Mike's claims are true. As I said, if anyone doubts me all they have to do is search his posts. It took me all of about 3 minutes to find the one stating:
> 
> _"Fit is another story, but most customers are more likely to get proper fit buying online than in a shop". _ Posted 8/29/09.
> 
> Now, seeing that he runs an online bike business, doesn't regularly see his customers, they pick their size (crossing their fingers) from a pull down window, he doesn't offer stem swaps to assist in fit.... and on and on, but you get the idea. His comment is absurd.
> 
> The icing on the cake is that when customers contact BD about sizing problems, they're told the customer is responsible for sizing and has been shipped what's been ordered. I'm sure Mike will have a good response to this, but members have posted these experiences, so again, do a search.
> 
> :



You do not seem to know how to avoid making false statements.
I stand by the statement you quoted; and it is totally inline with my 30 years of experience and hundreds of thousands of bike sales.

we do offer stem swaps to customers who ask for them; all they have to do is mail back their stem and we mail them back one in a size they think is better. This happens from time to time; not our most popular service; but we do it and you flat said we do not - therefore you are saying something you know nothing about. 

I do not see where you pointed out one thing I have posted that is 'absurd' -- then you some things at the same time that are clearly false. Like "doesn't regularly see his customers" and "he doesn't offer stem swaps to assist in fit" --- these statements you just made up and presented as facts - they are clearly false. Maybe you should learn to qualify statements by saying something like "I do not think" or "I heard from someone" or "it appears to me" -- I think each reader can decide for themselves who's statements are 'absurd'

Plus we size and sell over a hundred bikes a week in person -- and we also see the results of in shop sizing from all over the USA - so I think I maybe qualified to have an opinion on bike sizing.

Ultimately - each customer IS responsable for their sizing as sizing IS personal. The fact that some guy thinks I should ride a 52c because a machine says so; and that some other guy thinks I need a 50c because he has it in stock and his invoice on it is past due -- has nothing to do with the fact that I prefer a 54c -- that is ultimately my call.

Go to a few shops across the usa and scan the stock for 44c, 48c, 62c, and 64c bikes on the floor - and you will start to understand how it is easy to find a shop that will sell a short person a bike that is too big or a tall person a bike that is too tall.

Lots of brands do not even make models is super tall or super small sizes. I have bikes in stock all the time in all sizes - tall as 65c {C-T} and short as 44c; my staff is under zero pressure to size to stock. Add to that situation that many shops undersize due to overall sizing bais and yes "most customers are more likely to get proper fit buying online than in a shop"

Readers might find it interesting that we make less money on 62c, 64c, 65c bikes - not due to cost to make but cost to ship - UPS cost is double on those sizes very often due to box exceeding 130 inch limit --- BUT even so it is worth it to us as [1] a service for those that find those bikes hard to find and [2] we sell tons in those sizes as we have a big selection in SS/FG, cyclo-cross, road, touring, commuting bikes in those big sizes. I do not even know how many models I have in 64c - must be at least 20 -- many {if not most} shops do not even have a single 64c bike in stock on the floor.

Again, if anyone can find a post I have made that is false - please let me know so I can correct it.


----------



## hgaskins

> e sad thing is, you do have to kinda spell out the self-interest issue just like that... because odds are some BD fanboi will shout "a thousand times no!


I think that most people are aware of Mike's focus which seems to me to be more company PR than outright shilling, although the effect on people could amount to the same thing. In fact I don't think it's possible for any business person who's involved in a public forum to extricate themselves from their work.

In regards to fanboys it seems that there are enough of them aplenty with but one small difference. If you're a fanboy of Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, or some other popular brand in those forums it's considered to be socially acceptable, but do it here in the Moto forum and you'll be assailed by those other product fanboys'. It would seem to me that in a site titled Roadbikereview.com that individual reviews should receive the same respect in all forums without calling in to question the business model of the company from which it was purchased.

Most of the naysayers in the Moto forum don't own or ever intend to own a BD made bike so why are they here? The only reason that comes to mind is to act on their dislike of BD's product and business model by trolling those who've voiced their joy of having made a purchase or posted a review of their purchase. If all the Motobecane owners were to go to a Trek forum and do the same thing they would banned. What would happen if Trek fanboys began trolling the Cannondale forum and Specialized fanboyx the Trek forum? It wold shred this site and countless possible members would turn and go elsewhere. If you've observed the Home page of this site you will have noticed all the advertising. That's because Road Bike Review is also a business, and their biggest concern is that Mike is getting some free advertising, but they should also be concerned about turning away members.

In a world of black and white all too few gaze into the shadows where the gray areas lie.

Mike

There is one thing that you could do that would end a lot of the hostility that has been directed toward you and your business model. Get rid of the list prices posted on your site's bikes such as this "List $2495" for a $995 bike. It's meaningless if the list price is anything that you say it is, but in my view this is perfectly fine "Compare to $2,500 Trek or Specialized." If anyone has a brain in their head they'll take that advice. I did, I even rented some of them for a day from a very reputable LBS only to discover that one of their Mechanics purchased a bike from BD because he couldn't match it with his staff discount. In short, I did my homework first, and then made the leap.


----------



## The Green Hour

PJ352 said:


> You use your criteria as a consumer, and I'll use mine. I don't subscribe to the need to understand how businesses work when I contemplate purchases. Based on my priorities/ criteria, I buy or I don't. And speaking of those priorities, one of them is sizing/ fit assistance. Reputable LBS's recognize this and accomodate their customers. Online dealers (at best) show a casual interest, providing near useless online fit calculators (or similar) or provide a table with frame size recommendations based on height/ standover. And in the case of BD, I've seen instances where the frame sizes listed didn't match the model(s) in question. Now that takes a _large_ dose of 'understanding', IMHO.
> 
> As far as comparing a BD frame to one of the many name brand manufacturers, I suggest you do so. In person. You won't need good eyes to see the quality frames from BD's standard offerings.


Taking in account that the bikes are in the same pricepoint, they would be very comparable...period.

If you and the others don't like BD's business model and it doesn't work for you, don't buy from him. Don't even bother to respond on the subject. The internet sites are good for some people and not for others. 

And I guess you have no response to the overpriced Chinese sweatshop frames from the big mainstream manufacturers that get sold everyday from reputable bike shops all over the country. What makes BD any worse than Specialized and the like...:mad2:


----------



## PJ352

bikesdirect said:


> You do not seem to know how to avoid making false statements.
> I stand by the statement you quoted; and it is totally inline with my 30 years of experience and hundreds of thousands of bike sales.
> 
> we do offer stem swaps to customers who ask for them; all they have to do is mail back their stem and we mail them back one in a size they think is better. This happens from time to time; not our most popular service; but we do it and you flat said we do not - therefore you are saying something you know nothing about.
> 
> I do not see where you pointed out one thing I have posted that is 'absurd' -- then you some things at the same time that are clearly false. Like "doesn't regularly see his customers" and "he doesn't offer stem swaps to assist in fit" --- these statements you just made up and presented as facts - they are clearly false. Maybe you should learn to qualify statements by saying something like "I do not think" or "I heard from someone" or "it appears to me" -- I think each reader can decide for themselves who's statements are 'absurd'
> 
> Plus we size and sell over a hundred bikes a week in person -- and we also see the results of in shop sizing from all over the USA - so I think I maybe qualified to have an opinion on bike sizing.
> 
> Ultimately - each customer IS responsable for their sizing as sizing IS personal. The fact that some guy thinks I should ride a 52c because a machine says so; and that some other guy thinks I need a 50c because he has it in stock and his invoice on it is past due -- has nothing to do with the fact that I prefer a 54c -- that is ultimately my call.
> 
> Go to a few shops across the usa and scan the stock for 44c, 48c, 62c, and 64c bikes on the floor - and you will start to understand how it is easy to find a shop that will sell a short person a bike that is too big or a tall person a bike that is too tall.
> 
> Lots of brands do not even make models is super tall or super small sizes. I have bikes in stock all the time in all sizes - tall as 65c {C-T} and short as 44c; my staff is under zero pressure to size to stock. Add to that situation that many shops undersize due to overall sizing bais and yes "most customers are more likely to get proper fit buying online than in a shop"
> 
> Readers might find it interesting that we make less money on 62c, 64c, 65c bikes - not due to cost to make but cost to ship - UPS cost is double on those sizes very often due to box exceeding 130 inch limit --- BUT even so it is worth it to us as [1] a service for those that find those bikes hard to find and [2] we sell tons in those sizes as we have a big selection in SS/FG, cyclo-cross, road, touring, commuting bikes in those big sizes. I do not even know how many models I have in 64c - must be at least 20 -- many {if not most} shops do not even have a single 64c bike in stock on the floor.
> 
> Again, if anyone can find a post I have made that is false - please let me know so I can correct it.


Predictable. You completely ignore the _numerous_ factual statements made and focus on one that, when taken literally and out of context, is inaccurate.

When I said BD doesn't offer stem swaps_ to assist in fit_, I was offering it as it related to your absurd statement:
"Fit is another story, but most customers are more likely to get proper fit buying *online *than in a shop". 

You may offer stem swaps (of sorts), but _BD plays no role in assisting with fit_, Rather, they're filling an order - one that, until received leaves the buyer without a bike to ride.

Then you go on to offer that hundreds of customers are fit *in stores *every week. But considering your statement re: fit mentioned *online purchases*, that's irrelevant. And those customers you (as in BD) don't see, do you. So that clears up any problem with my earlier statement saying as much.

RE: large/ small frame size availability. Off the top of my head I can think of at least three manufacturers offering the same. And yes, some (less than reputable) LBS's push their inventory - a reason for noobs or less experienced cyclists to visit a few shops and find one they're comfortable with. The better shops will size a customer and order the appropriate size, then once the bike arrives, will fit the rider and have them test ride the bike - continuing with the fit process, if necessary.

But IMO those few substandard LBS's aren't a reason to go the BD route for reasons already mentioned. 

RE: BD's willingness to ship oversized boxes without the customers incuring additional charges. To my knowledge, so do the name brands. To which I'm sure you'd reply that your prices are lower. But LBS's provide many vital services, thus the higher costs. You must recognize the same, because you refer buyers to LBS's for final assembly of BD bikes.

So, in the interest of full disclosure:

1. Please provide a toll free number so that anyone needing to contact BD may do so.

2. Explain why the customer receiving a damaged bike was told (by a BD rep) to go buy touch up paint. (you posted in that thread and didn't respond)

3. Explain why a customers CC was charged, but no bike was shipped.

4. Explain why a customer requesting a resolution to guessing wrong on sizing was told the customer is responsible for sizing and was shipped what was ordered.


----------



## PJ352

The Green Hour said:


> Taking in account that the bikes are in the same pricepoint, they would be very comparable...period.
> 
> If you and the others don't like BD's business model and it doesn't work for you, don't buy from him. Don't even bother to respond on the subject. The internet sites are good for some people and not for others.
> 
> And I guess you have no response to the overpriced Chinese sweatshop frames from the big mainstream manufacturers that get sold everyday from reputable bike shops all over the country. What makes BD any worse than Specialized and the like...:mad2:


I wasn't talking bikes, I was talking frames. Comparing (to name but two) Trek and Specialized (namely, alu) to BD's offerings and the lower quality of BD frames is evident. That was my point.

As far as liking or disliking BD, IMO that's irrelevant. What is relevant is pointing out what I see as misleading or inaccurate statements, because left as written, they may mislead a member at some point in the future. So no, not bothering to respond isn't an option for me.

Lastly, I don't recall ever defending unfair labor practices, by anyone. So I'm a little confused as to why you mentioned it.


----------



## PJ352

A couple of thoughts. You set a 'what if' scenario where Trek fans 'crash' a Spec site or C'dale... and equate it with trolling, but ignore (or maybe aren't aware) that BD Mike has (on numerous occasions) visited other forums and promoted his products. Check his posts if you doubt this. Is this in some way different?

And is your definition of trolling a member simply calling someone on what they see as an inaccurate or misleading statement, based on where that statement is made? If so, that seems to run counter to what I see as fundamental to a forum. 

Beyond that, let's not forget the title of this thread, and who the OP was. I've seen similar posts on the Specialized site by disgruntled buyers, but they had their say and members responded... and (AFAIK) everyone lived to see another day... and RBR carried on.


----------



## PlatyPius

hgaskins said:


> In regards to fanboys it seems that there are enough of them aplenty with but one small difference. If you're a fanboy of Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, or some other popular brand in those forums it's considered to be socially acceptable...


No, a lot of people detest fanboys no matter what brand they are loyal to.



hgaskins said:


> Most of the naysayers in the Moto forum don't own or ever intend* to own a BD made bike so why are they here*? The only reason that comes to mind is to act on their dislike of BD's product and business model by trolling those who've voiced their joy of having made a purchase or posted a review of their purchase.


You DO realize that Motobecane existed long, long before BD bought the US rights to the name, right? Yes Virginia, there ARE non-BD Motobecanes roaming the planet!

In my case, though, I just go through the "Recent Posts" thing without regard to which forum a post is in.

As for your comment about list price vs. "compare to"....that's what I posted and then deleted in my post a couple of days ago. I noticed that only Kestrels had list prices now, and everything else was "compare to", so I deleted my post bashing Mike for making up list prices.


----------



## hgaskins

> Trek and Specialized (namely, alu) to BD's offerings and the lower quality of BD frames is evident.


Actually the frame used by the Immortal line from BD are from Advanced Composite who also make carbon frames for Specialized and Cannondale just to name two. The rest of the parts on the bike such as Shimano 105/ultegra 6600/6700 are labeled by name. In fact tact that very same frame was used to build some Louis Garneau bikes with nearly the same parts that cost over a $1000 more. Here' an image. Compare the frame to the Immortal Pro.


----------



## bikesdirect

PlatyPius said:


> No, a lot of people detest fanboys no matter what brand they are loyal to.
> 
> 
> 
> You DO realize that Motobecane existed long, long before BD bought the US rights to the name, right? Yes Virginia, there ARE non-BD Motobecanes roaming the planet!
> 
> In my case, though, I just go through the "Recent Posts" thing without regard to which forum a post is in.
> 
> As for your comment about list price vs. "compare to"....that's what I posted and then deleted in my post a couple of days ago. I noticed that only Kestrels had list prices now, and everything else was "compare to", so I deleted my post bashing Mike for making up list prices.


To be clear: lots of our bikes say 'compare to' and lots show list price. Each brand has the right to set MSRP on items; many do. We set MSRP on Motobecane, Mercier, Mango, etc bikes.

I have explained at least 20 times online why it is important to set list prices. Some people understand that; some people do not understand it; most people do not even think about it as it is totally natural. However, most know that if Trek and Speciailzed and so on can set MSRP - so can Motobecane, Mango, and so on.

Without setting list prices; the e-mail questions thru brand sites quadurples.
Without list prices, magazines will not publish tests or list bikes in comparation sheets.
Without list prices that are high enough, parts suppliers will not be comfortable with the brand and its oem situation.
Without list prices, many customers are confused about the relative position of a bike and how it compares in the market place.

There is a long history concerning list prices in the bicycle industry. All brands I know of have list prices; most publish them right on their web sites.

You may never use sites like : http://www.roadbikebuyersguide.com/

http://www.roadbikebuyersguide.com/

But many people do - and we can not be listed unless we show a list price that is a 'fair vavlue' in a shop.

List prices on bikes, cars, shoes, motorcycles, TVs, and most consumer products are here to stay. Consumers, Dealers, Suppliers and the Media demand them.


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## PJ352

I don't doubt you, but just because two frames are manufactured in the same factory doesn't necessarily mean they're of the same quality.

BTW, as my quote shows, my reference for comparison was specifically aluminum frames, because you can see the quality (or lack thereof) of the welds.


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## hgaskins

> BTW, as my quote shows, my reference for comparison was specifically aluminum frames, because you can see the quality (or lack thereof) of the welds.


Some of BD's Aluminum frames are made by Kinesis and so are some of Treks. When you say welds do you mean quality or pretty? There's a difference. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_Industry


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## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> Some of BD's Aluminum frames are made by Kinesis and so are some of Treks. When you say welds do you mean quality or pretty? There's a difference.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_Industry


Generally speaking, quality shows. That given, I think most name brands can better BD (and many other) offerings. 

Of course, if you're an experienced welder and/ or have experience in cutting up frames to check the welds integrity, I'm willing to learn. Better yet, show me a study where one brands trumps the other in failure rates/ warranty repairs, etc.

RE: the link. I've already addressed that issue.


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## hgaskins

> Of course, if you're an experienced welder and/ or have experience in cutting up frames to check the welds integrity, I'm willing to learn. Better yet, show me a study where one brands trumps the other in failure rates/ warranty repairs, etc.


I do indeed weld but not as a living. The difference between many welds is just the difference in how the welds are ground before their painted.

Take a close look on this Trek 1.2, expand it and then check out the welds and compare it to the Grand Record.

https://brickwell.com/nobots/zoom/item_zoom.cfm?libid=49040

https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/images/gr_rec_x_2100.jpg

Both are in my view Kinesis Frames with very little qualitative difference. Trek has their usual back slanted upper frame and that's about it. Maybe they pay for the difference although more likely not, but they probably do have exclusivity on the look.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should purchase from BD and their are reasons for many to not do it. But for the discerning eyed level headed frugal shopper why not? Give up a little flash and paint and live with a lesser respected source, or spend the money on more expensive name brand. It's more often than not the difference between a $70 pair of Nike's' or a $200 pair of Jordan's. There's no quality difference whatsoever but they are Jordan's.


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## PlatyPius

Raleigh uses Kinesis frames as well.

Many of the differences between frames are small. However, it is those small differences that make a Raleigh a Raleigh, a Colnago a Colnago, a Trek a Trek, and a "Motobecane" a Motobecane. Kinesis DOES have different levels of frames. Take a close look at a Windsor Wellington 2.0 some time. I built one up for a customer and wrote a review on it either here for on BF. Complete and total shite. Welding rod sticking out of a weld, the weld on the downtube/BB junction wasn't complete (big gap), etc. "Compare at $4000 for a Pinarello!" Yeah, right. The closest thing I've seen to the quality of that Windsor was one of the GMC Denalis at Wal-Mart.

Don't get me wrong....BD has some nice bikes. But some of them are total crap. When you compare like-for-like, the price difference isn't nearly as large as it appears. Just because a bike has Ultegra components on it doesn't mean the frame is worth a sh!t. Again, there are some that are good (Vent Noir) and some that aren't.


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## twobournes

PJ352 said:


> I don't doubt you, but just because two frames are manufactured in the same factory doesn't necessarily mean they're of the same quality.
> 
> BTW, as my quote shows, my reference for comparison was specifically aluminum frames, because you can see the quality (or lack thereof) of the welds.



That's a pretty flimsy argument.


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## bikesdirect

hgaskins said:


> I do indeed weld but not as a living. The difference between many welds is just the difference in how the welds are ground before their painted.
> 
> Take a close look on this Trek 1.2, expand it and then check out the welds and compare it to the Grand Record.
> 
> https://brickwell.com/nobots/zoom/item_zoom.cfm?libid=49040
> 
> https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/images/gr_rec_x_2100.jpg
> 
> Both are in my view Kinesis Frames with very little qualitative difference. Trek has their usual back slanted upper frame and that's about it. Maybe they pay for the difference although more likely not, but they probably do have exclusivity on the look.
> 
> I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should purchase from BD and their are reasons for many to not do it. But for the discerning eyed level headed frugal shopper why not? Give up a little flash and paint and live with a lesser respected source, or spend the money on more expensive name brand. It's more often than not the difference between a $70 pair of Nike's' or a $200 pair of Jordan's. There's no quality difference whatsoever but they are Jordan's.



well spotted
Kinesis has one level of QC - period
we can pay extra to get welds ground down to be smooth before painting; of course this does not improve ride or durability [in theory it reduces durability]

quality of frames that Kinesis [or sunrise or a-pro or etc] produces for Trek, Specialized, Felt, Motobecane, Jamis, Fuji, Windsor, etc etc etc does not vary - nor can you request better QC than your competitors -- just does not happen

of course, tubing spec, geo, etc is up to each brand
but in the case you noted on Trek 'look' - that is not exclusive
it is like Bianchi cesteste color - anyone can use it if they want to

enlightenment is a long process; but it is moving faster than I expect [that is why we have a hard time keeping bikes in stock and why I have had to add warehouse space every six months for the last 3 years]

Branding vs manufacturing is becoming more obviuos to consumers all the time - and that is all for the good


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## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> I do indeed weld but not as a living. The difference between many welds is just the difference in how the welds are ground before their painted.
> 
> Take a close look on this Trek 1.2, expand it and then check out the welds and compare it to the Grand Record.
> 
> https://brickwell.com/nobots/zoom/item_zoom.cfm?libid=49040
> 
> https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/images/gr_rec_x_2100.jpg
> 
> Both are in my view Kinesis Frames with very little qualitative difference. Trek has their usual back slanted upper frame and that's about it. Maybe they pay for the difference although more likely not, but they probably do have exclusivity on the look.
> 
> I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should purchase from BD and their are reasons for many to not do it. But for the discerning eyed level headed frugal shopper why not? Give up a little flash and paint and live with a lesser respected source, or spend the money on more expensive name brand. It's more often than not the difference between a $70 pair of Nike's' or a $200 pair of Jordan's. There's no quality difference whatsoever but they are Jordan's.


I checked both sites but couldn't get to the first. That aside, this quality of welds issue is but one of many facets to this 'argument'. IMO the most compelling reason NOT to go the online route (BD or similar) is the lack of sizing/ fitting guidance (and that pretty much answers your 'why not' question). 

There's an irony in that the customer most apt to have a positive online buying experience is one knowledgeable in their sizing/ fit requirements, understands what the geo numbers mean, and compares them to their requirements. They don't need sizing assistance, but that type of buyer (IMO) is most likely to _not _go the online route, unless it's to pursue upper end bikes. 

Conversely, the buyer more likely to view online bikes favorably are the noobs - the very group that would most benefit from what the online guys _don't_ provide. That being, sizing/ fitting assistance. We can go round and round on this issue till doomsday, but fact is an online retailer cannot reliably size (let alone fit) a rider, despite what BD Mike claims. 

As you say, everyone has to decide for themselves, but the forum does serve to have potential buyers read and review posts on both sides of the aisle, then based on their own criteria, decide for themselves.


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## PJ352

twobournes said:


> That's a pretty flimsy argument.


Wasn't intended to be an argument, flimsy or otherwise. I consider it a given - a statement of fact.


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## bikesdirect

PlatyPius said:


> Raleigh uses Kinesis frames as well.
> 
> Many of the differences between frames are small. However, it is those small differences that make a Raleigh a Raleigh, a Colnago a Colnago, a Trek a Trek, and a "Motobecane" a Motobecane. Kinesis DOES have different levels of frames. Take a close look at a Windsor Wellington 2.0 some time. I built one up for a customer and wrote a review on it either here for on BF. Complete and total shite. Welding rod sticking out of a weld, the weld on the downtube/BB junction wasn't complete (big gap), etc. "Compare at $4000 for a Pinarello!" Yeah, right. The closest thing I've seen to the quality of that Windsor was one of the GMC Denalis at Wal-Mart.
> 
> Don't get me wrong....BD has some nice bikes. But some of them are total crap. When you compare like-for-like, the price difference isn't nearly as large as it appears. Just because a bike has Ultegra components on it doesn't mean the frame is worth a sh!t. Again, there are some that are good (Vent Noir) and some that aren't.



Actually, Kinesis does not offer different levels of QC
Of course, some poor work may slip thru - you may have even seen one
But - I can assure you poor work can slip thro QC on any brand and at any price.
I pulled a $5000 out of a box last month that was really bad [not one of our brands] -- no why I would sell or ride it. But the company of course understood and replaced it at once [as would we on a bike with any issue]


No bike we sell is total crap {and I know crap when I see it}
Even the cheapest bikes we sell can and do give consumers years of trouble free enjoyment.

When you compare like for like - we always save people money over new bikes sold at list - sometimes the saving is only $200 or so -- BUT sometimes the saving are insane -- in the thousands of dollars.

DMC is made in China - but the factory is not awful -- but the Kinesis frame on a Wellington is much nicer [and costs me right at double what buying the same design from the factory that makes DMC would]. We sell hundreds of Wellington 2.0s - most customers love them; we get almost zero returns; I have never seen one fail; I know of several customers that have used them daily as commuters and a few that have gone cross country on them [like New York to Washington State] -- not very many $350 to $400 road bike options with Shimano STI shifters. So I think I will keep it as is since it sells like mad and most customers love it.

But if you ever see one of of bikes with a QC issue; please send info to me or my staff so it can be addressed.


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## hgaskins

> I checked both sites but couldn't get to the first. That aside, this quality of welds issue is but one of many facets to this 'argument'. IMO the most compelling reason NOT to go the online route (BD or similar) is the lack of sizing/ fitting guidance (and that pretty much answers your 'why not' question).



That's absolutely correct, but that can be resolved by going to your LBS that uses a sizing fit kit and get properly sized. They might charge you $10 but they have the skills to do a good job. After I got sized I put some miles on a Specialized and a Cannondale to insure that things were right before buying. I seem to have been dead on and for the Aluminum frames that are Kinesis I would test out with a Trek 1.2 or 1.5. If that's not to anyone's liking then they can always go to one of many sites that have a kit calculator and do it on their own. I go to the University Bicycle Center in Tampa. They make plenty of money off me from shoes, water bottles to tune-ups (to much of pain to adjust limits in my limited spare time), clothes, Helmets, and more. BTW one of their people owns a Mercier Serpens.

Mike

I think that you might want to start offering a seat upgrade for a few bucks more because just about everyone who purchases your bikes eventually gets one. Just ask my bottom side.


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## hgaskins

PJ352



> I checked both sites but couldn't get to the first.


My apology, try this one choose "click to zoom" expand the image and explore the frame.


http://brickwell.com/product/09-trek-1.2-triple-49040-1.htm


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## covenant

20sMotoSpirit said:


> The reputation of being bulletproof is universal.


fixed.

Look on any cycling forum. The phrases "bullet-proof" or "bomb-proof" come up again and again. Based on those overwhelming recommendations, I bought a pair of Mavic K's as an upgrade from my equally "bomb-proof" Mavic Open Pros. Spokes break on any wheel, but I've never heard that being a common problem with the K's.

However, as always: Your mileage my vary...:thumbsup:

Now back to your regularly scheduled BD *****fest!


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## SystemShock

hgaskins said:


> I think that most people are aware of Mike's focus which seems to me to be more company PR than outright shilling, although the effect on people could amount to the same thing.
> 
> In fact I don't think it's possible for any business person who's involved in a public forum to extricate themselves from their work.


Sure, I agree with that last statement. But my point was, there's a line beteween acting in your economic self-interest, and being so completely beholden to your economic self-interest that you'll say just about ANYTHING, true, arguable, or untrue, in service of that interest.

Does Mike cross that line and sometimes BS it up a little too much? Some sure seem to think so, though I'm sure he and whatever hardcore BD fans there are will vehemently disagree.



> _If you're a fanboy of Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, or some other popular brand in those forums it's considered to be socially acceptable..._


I'd say, not really. Fanbois and shills are largely disliked on RBR, whatever their stripe.

In fact, the most common catchphrase on RBR is, "Are Treks good bikes?", which mocks Trek's semi-disgusting ubiquity. 

I think ppl confuse Trek and Specialized's ubiquity with fanboism. As in, "Gee, there's a lot of discussions about Madones and Roubaixes, so everyone here must be a Trek or Specialized fanboi." But, ppl just talk about what's in front of 'em, what they see every day. And due to marketshare, that's often a Trek or Specialized. Doesn't make ya a fanboi of them.

I certainly haven't seen too many firebreathing Trek or Spesh fanbois here (maybe in their specific sub-forums, it's different), and the few times I have, they've usually been beating up on each other. Ask most of them what they think of BikesDirect, and they'll say, "What's BikesDirect?".  



> _Most of the naysayers in the Moto forum don't own or ever intend to own a BD made bike so why are they here? _


Because, among the few who actually know or care, BD is a bit controversial, I guess. Some of that has to do with Mike's constant salesmanship, some has to do with the shilling controversy awhile back, where apparently some BD employees really were posing as customers posting enthusiastic testimonials (Mike has stated that that practice has been stopped). 

Honestly, if Mike/BD was a tad less aggressive, no one would probably care about them except those interested in buying one.
.


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## The Green Hour

PJ352 said:


> Generally speaking, quality shows. That given, I think most name brands can better BD (and many other) offerings.
> 
> Of course, if you're an experienced welder and/ or have experience in cutting up frames to check the welds integrity, I'm willing to learn. Better yet, show me a study where one brands trumps the other in failure rates/ warranty repairs, etc.
> 
> RE: the link. I've already addressed that issue.


Why is it so hard for you to believe that frames built for Trek, Specialized, etc are of the same quality as the ones used by companies like BD, etc...

Are you so sucked into their marketing that makes you believe that they are on some kind of level way above everyone else who purchases from Kinesis??

Just for your information, even the high end frames from the mainstream guys have been known to have shoddy alignments and subpar construction compared to a typical frame built by a custom builder in the US. Don't believe for a minute that they are giving you the best product they can.


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## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> That's absolutely correct, but that can be resolved by going to your LBS that uses a sizing fit kit and get properly sized. They might charge you $10 but they have the skills to do a good job. After I got sized I put some miles on a Specialized and a Cannondale to insure that things were right before buying. I seem to have been dead on and for the Aluminum frames that are Kinesis I would test out with a Trek 1.2 or 1.5. If that's not to anyone's liking then they can always go to one of many sites that have a kit calculator and do it on their own. I go to the University Bicycle Center in Tampa. They make plenty of money off me from shoes, water bottles to tune-ups (to much of pain to adjust limits in my limited spare time), clothes, Helmets, and more. BTW one of their people owns a Mercier Serpens.


You'll get no argument from me with the process you've outlined. I've used the fit kit and IMO that's preferable to the online fit calculators and yields better results. It always helps to know geo, but at least after size is determined cyclists can use the results as a guide (as you did) and try out bikes with suitable geo.

BTW, my argument was never that there was no resolution to the sizing/ fit issue, only that online sellers don't offer any_ real _assistance, and it's too important (especially for noobs) to bypass.


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## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> PJ352
> 
> My apology, try this one choose "click to zoom" expand the image and explore the frame.
> 
> http://brickwell.com/product/09-trek-1.2-triple-49040-1.htm


Thanks for the correction. After seeing that, I'd go with Specialized (or another).


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## PlatyPius

The Green Hour said:


> Why is it so hard for you to believe that frames built for Trek, Specialized, etc are of the same quality as the ones used by companies like BD, etc...
> 
> Are you so sucked into their marketing that makes you believe that they are on some kind of level way above everyone else who purchases from Kinesis??
> 
> Just for your information, *even the high end frames from the mainstream guys have been known to have shoddy alignments and subpar construction compared to a typical frame built by a custom builder in the US. Don't believe for a minute that they are giving you the best product they can.*


This is mostly true. I have dealt with some companies that have never sent a bike to me that wasn't perfect. Yes, those tend to be more expensive (Colnago - I've never gotten a "bad" or damaged Colnago. Italian-built, that is.)

The difference is, the customer never sees the bad ones when they buy from a bike shop. Any bike with a serious issue is sent back. If it's a fixable issue, it is fixed before it's put on the showroom floor. To the customer, there was never a problem. If they purchase a bike online, sight-unseen, and there's an issue, they own a bike but they can't ride it. They have to box it back up and send it back to BD or wherever they bought it. Then they wait. I don't know about you, but if I bought a bike and had to send it back before I'd even ridden it, I'd be pretty pissed and bummed.

That's one of the things you're paying for when you buy a bike from a shop.


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## PJ352

The Green Hour said:


> Are you so sucked into their marketing that makes you believe that they are on some kind of level way above everyone else who purchases from Kinesis??


No, but it appears you are in regards to BD.


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## hgaskins

> Are you so sucked into their marketing that makes you believe that they are on some kind of level way above everyone else who purchases from Kinesis?





> No, but it appears you are in regards to BD.


I think that this can be said of lot of people and the choice of bike make doesn't seem to matter. More than a few people who've purchased a BD product have become weary of threads or posts by individuals that bad mouth the product, and imply that the people who purchases it are somehow not intelligent or are incapable of making a good purchase. This can cause ire among people who've extensively used the product and feel their choice has been more than validated.

Some people see their products as extensions of themselves as though it were an actual appendage given them at birth or they become anthropomorphic toward it. I see all products for what they are, the sum of their total parts and nothing more. Give it good parts and nothing else matters.


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## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> I think that this can be said of lot of people and the choice of bike make doesn't seem to matter. More than a few people who've purchased a BD product have become weary of threads or posts by individuals that bad mouth the product, and imply that the people who purchases it are somehow not intelligent or are incapable of making a good purchase. This can cause ire among people who've extensively used the product and feel their choice has been more than validated.
> 
> Some people see their products as extensions of themselves as though it were an actual appendage given them at birth or they become anthropomorphic toward it. I see all products for what they are, the sum of their total parts and nothing more. Give it good parts and nothing else matters.


IMO anyone that sensitive about being exposed to dissenting opinions is fundamentally insecure with their buying decision. Members could (and have) visited the Specialized forum posting negatives about both the company and specific products. Predictably, most posts reflect favorable experiences with the brand and the discussion can get.... lively at times, but I have no recollection of anyone even hinting that members should not do such things. 

Beyond that, it seems a contradiction to me for you to say (basically) that a bike is a tool, then post (twice) implying that members invade this forum. You could post in any forum you choose saying my Tarmac is a POS and it wouldn't be a hiccup in my life. Would I post an opposing view? Maybe. Would I write paragraphs offering the negative effects your post has on a specific community? Never. Why?

This is a forum, after all.


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## hgaskins

> IMO anyone that sensitive about being exposed to dissenting opinions is fundamentally insecure with their buying decision.


Perhaps but it doesn't change the fact that it happens and not just here but in any forum on any product. Just about every single review written on a BD product has ended with the reviewer being called a shill.




> Members could (and have) visited the Specialized forum posting negatives about both the company and specific products.[/I]




Certainly if they're prepared to flame the entire forum. If that happens I think that you'll find more than enough of those "sensitive about being exposed to dissenting opinions (and) fundamentally insecurities." 



> Would I post an opposing view?


There's noting wrong with dissenting opinions as long as the dissenter is citing direct experience and specificity. Otherwise it's just trolling.



> Beyond that, it seems a contradiction to me for you to say (basically) that a bike is a tool, then post (twice) implying that members invade this forum.


I see no conflict whatsoever since one doesn't contradict the other, and both can be true at the same time.



> You could post in any forum you choose saying my Tarmac is a POS and it wouldn't be a hiccup in my life.


Since you've read some of my posts you must know that that is unlikely to happen.




> Would I write paragraphs offering the negative effects your post has on a specific community?


No but you should send a PM if that's the way you see it. I would and do since I also have my own forum. Technology and computers draw trolls just as quickly.



> This is a forum, after all.


That is true, but it also has someone who presides over a debate for a reason. Debate is good, but name calling and trolling are harmful.


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## SystemShock

Aw, no. HG, you're not really doing line-by-line, sentence-by-sentence rebutting of entire posts, are ya?

No one reads all that. :lol:

Btw HG, if you really feel that what PJ and others are doing here is "trolling", you're free to contact the mods on that.

My guess is not much'll happen though, as their definition of 'trolling' may not square with yours. But they, not you, are the final judges on what is and is not trolling.
.


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## PJ352

hgaskins said:


> Perhaps but it doesn't change the fact that it happens and not just here but in any forum on any product. Just about every single review written on a BD product has ended with the reviewer being called a *shill*.
> 
> Certainly if they're prepared to flame the entire forum. If that happens I think that you'll find more than enough of those "sensitive about being exposed to dissenting opinions (and) fundamentally insecurities."
> 
> There's noting wrong with dissenting opinions as long as the dissenter is citing direct experience and specificity. Otherwise it's just* trolling*.
> 
> I see no conflict whatsoever since one doesn't contradict the other, and both can be true at the same time.
> 
> Since you've read some of my posts you must know that that is unlikely to happen.
> 
> No but you should send a PM if that's the way you see it. I would and do since I also have my own forum. Technology and computers draw *trolls* just as quickly.
> 
> That is true, but it also has someone who presides over a debate for a reason. Debate is good, but *name calling and trolling *are harmful.


Besides attempting to apply your opinions to the forum, it appears that you're resembling some of your own complaints.


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## thien

This thread is being locked because it's steering away from the original thread topic.


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