# Tubeless Tires - Sealant or No Sealant



## Weav (Jun 21, 2009)

I've been told by the guy who recommended my new wheels to me (Dura Ace 7850 SL) that if I haven't been using a sealant on my clinchers there is no need to use sealant on my new Tubeless tires. He's been riding them for a few years with only air and he hasn't had any difficulties. This guy is a bonafide expert in the cycling industry. 

What are your opinions?


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## locobaylor (Mar 11, 2008)

I'd use sealant because if you get a hole, it'll (more than likely) seal it and let you keep riding without stopping to put a tube in. My 2 cents.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

You don't *have* to use sealant, but it really "saves the bacon" when you run over small items that cause minor punctures. Some of them you won't have to patch at all. Sometimes the sealant will "catch" the hole before too much air gets out, so you can just keep riding or hit it with CO2 and keep going.

If you're new to Road Tubeless, search the forums and read through. Practice fixing flats prior to doing it on the road; it works a little differently. There's lots of good advice that's already been posted.


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## masterofnone (Jul 4, 2010)

The majority of my mountain bikes are tubeless with sealant, and many times the sealant has saved the day. Most of the punctures I never knew happened until I took the tire off. My one and only road bike is not (yet anyway), but unless you're obsessed with the extra couple ounces of sealant, why not?


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## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

I use sealant, even though Shimano says not to. I use for two reasons - (1) the sealant may close a small hole while riding and prevent a flat and (2) while tubeless rims and tires should not require sealant, I find that my tubeless set up very slowly leaks air from the sidewalls such that pressure drops like 10 psi a day (similar to a latex tube). The sealant helps really seal up the sidewall so the tire holds pressure over a longer period of time. Maybe not an issue for all but annoys me nevertheless.

I would strongly suggest Stan's. I bought the Hutchinson nonsense that only their sealant should be used in their tires. However, after I spent $30 on 2 cans of sealant with CO2 and the cans malfunctioned and I got sealant all over the place, I will never use that expensive product again.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't think Shimano says not to. My new Shimano wheels had nothing anywhere in all the liturature that came with it that said I could not use sealant. I am sure if I called them and asked to modify their product their standard answer is no. They did say not to use tire levers or rim tape but that was it.


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## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

Brazos said:


> I don't think Shimano says not to. My new Shimano wheels had nothing anywhere in all the liturature that came with it that said I could not use sealant. I am sure if I called them and asked to modify their product their standard answer is no. They did say not to use tire levers or rim tape but that was it.


I called Shimano - they said on the phone not to use sealant, even the Hutchinson branded one.

Putting the tires on without tire levers is a huge pain so I do use a lever. However, I would suggest using the Hutchinson branded lever made specifically for tubeless tires that has the sponge on one end to wet the bead. Yeah, it's $6 for .10 of plastic and sponge but the shape does work really well and I assume if made by Hutchinson, is designed not to damage the bead of the tire.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

They say not to, but it works fine. Pretty much any plain plastic tire lever is fine also. No need to buy the Hutchinson stuff if you don't want to.


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## EpiphFreddy (Oct 12, 2006)

If you want to repair flats more often on a tubeless tire that is much tighter against the rim and more difficult to work with, then don't use sealant. If you want less flats and possibly none ever, then use the sealant. I have been using sealant for over two years and have never experienced an on road flat....knock on wood. I use plastic cheap levers and have never had a problem installing the tires or getting them off.


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

i always use sealant and it just so happens that i've never flatted since i have... weird.


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

I use Stans sealant.


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## EpiphFreddy (Oct 12, 2006)

You can also go to your local hobby shop such as Hobby Lobby and buy liquid latex and make your own. All you do it mix it with water. Much less expensive.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

EpiphFreddy said:


> You can also go to your local hobby shop such as Hobby Lobby and buy liquid latex and make your own. All you do it mix it with water. Much less expensive.


That can be a really bad idea unless you're certain that there's no ammonia in the liquid latex.


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## EpiphFreddy (Oct 12, 2006)

I guess I have been lucky then because I have never had a problem. What would the ammonia do? Ruin the tire? And if so, how quickly? I have not had a problem yet. Most tires wear out under a year anyways. I'll check and see if the ingrediants are listed on the liquid latex I have. I got the idea from one of the mtbike forums. So far, so good.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Ammonia reacts and dissolves aluminum; it's a bad value to have ammonia in constant contact with your rims.


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## EpiphFreddy (Oct 12, 2006)

I'll have to check my latex sealant. So I assume if this were occurring it would be noticeable from inspection with the tire off? I am 98% sure this is not occurring so I should be OK. Have you ever seen or heard of this occurring? I have not, but then again I have only been using this method for a few years now. How long would this take out of curiosity?


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Don't know any of those answers. I keep ammonia away from my aluminum. I guess if you don't see any damage, then don't worry about it.


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## Derman (Oct 23, 2005)

+1 on the sealant.

I use 1 oz. of Stan's in each wheel, which I think is half of the recommended amount.

I got a little cut/puncture in my tire and the sealant worked as advertised. Since I was new to the tubeless tires, it was bad enough for me to order a new tire for when it didn't work...that was about 1,500 miles ago and I still have the new tire.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Derman said:


> +1 on the sealant.
> 
> I use 1 oz. of Stan's in each wheel, which I think is half of the recommended amount.
> 
> I got a little cut/puncture in my tire and the sealant worked as advertised. Since I was new to the tubeless tires, it was bad enough for me to order a new tire for when it didn't work...that was about 1,500 miles ago and I still have the new tire.


If it ever leaks, you can just patch it. No trouble.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

I asked this in a thread above but am not getting any responses. I have a pair of 2 Way Fit wheels (Eurus). If one is running Stan's sealant in the tires do you purchase different stems for your wheels as I tried putting some Stan's sealant in the tire before they were 100% mounted (because unless you have the 2 piece stem it is the only way to get the sealant in the tire) and what a mess! I would think that getting the solution through the stem would be the way to go but as the Campy stems are a one piece unit I would obviously have to mount another type of stem on the wheels.
If there is a two piece stem that can accommodate the sealant what is the product name and where is it purchased? Thanks!!!


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

No, same valves. You just push the tire aside at the top and squirt it in with a common plastic syringe. No mess at all; I occasionally get a little drip from the bottom before it's inflated, but it's not much.

I'm not sure why anybody puts the sealant in via the valve. I hang the wheel so it's not sitting on the tire, put the valve at about nine or three o'clock, put the pump on, then squirt the sealant in from the top. As soon as I'm done with the sealant, I immediately inflate.

No fuss, no muss.


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

there are valves out there where you can remove the core and it is easy to shoot the sealant in there (i don't know what brand makes tubeless valves with this feature). Shooting through the valve is a pain in the ass, but it can be done using either the stan's injector thing or an oral syringe and a piece of rubber tubing melted to size (i used drill bits and a lighter to expand some tubing i had that fit on the syringe, but not over the valve).

For mountain bikes i just dump the sealant in the side of the tire before i have it mounted on the rim, i haven't used road tubeless yet so i don't know how much harder this method is.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

I run road tubeless (Stan's) and I have filled tires both ways. I do not find it a pain to fill through the Presta valve. The hard part is finding a proper sized wrench to snug it back up with and or unscrewing it. I found a cheap stamped wrench and filed it to fit so now it's easy. I pulled off a tire after running it 2 years, and found the sealant had dried out. I then decided to check a tire that had been running about 1 year and found it was fine, it didn't need anything. It would have been real easy to just pour some in the side by just pushing the edge of the tire over though.


MarshallH1987 said:


> there are valves out there where you can remove the core and it is easy to shoot the sealant in there (i don't know what brand makes tubeless valves with this feature). Shooting through the valve is a pain in the ass, but it can be done using either the stan's injector thing or an oral syringe and a piece of rubber tubing melted to size (i used drill bits and a lighter to expand some tubing i had that fit on the syringe, but not over the valve).
> 
> For mountain bikes i just dump the sealant in the side of the tire before i have it mounted on the rim, i haven't used road tubeless yet so i don't know how much harder this method is.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

pmt not sure how you were so successful but a friend and I tried putting on a tire and we were averaging at least 30 minutes. Found it very hard to seal the tire without any air in it, and even when using a syringe and some tubing the sealant was coming out of the bottom of the tire. Perhaps hanging it would help. Did you use the soap method to get the bead on? I found that the little granules in the sealant actually seemed affect the seal of the bead.

Martin are you using a 2 piece Presta valve as I can't imagine being able to snug the valve back into a Campy wheel without access to it from the inside rim.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Nah, I never bother with soapy water anymore. Haven't needed it. I use a simple syringe like this https://www.glowngrowhydroponics.co.uk/ekmps/shops/glowngrow/images/10ml.jpg and just push the tire aside at the top and inject it. 

Hanging the wheel is important; Stan says to do that in his video as well.

For inflation, I use a Zefal Double-Shot pump, which slams air in quickly. No trouble seating and sealing the tire, now on five different types of rim (two Neuvation, Bontrager, Rigida, Velocity).


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

Saw the hanging bit on the video and perhaps that is more important then I would have thought. I think the fact that I have Campy wheels which are notorious for tight fitting tires, is not helping. I appreciate your responses to my question.
On an aside, I was out for a long ride yesterday and thought I had run over a milkweed plant as I had white liquid spray up from my back wheel. Realized shortly after that it was the sealant doing its job and saved me a puncture and flat!


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## EpiphFreddy (Oct 12, 2006)

A "Slime" bottle can be used too. It has the top that is pointed where you can push it between the tire and rim (with the tire partially off of the rim). You just point it in and squeeze and let it fall to the bottom of the tire and then pull the tire back onto the rim from the top. I then inflate the tire with a compressor or CO2 cartridge. The soapy water just helps the tire seat with less pressure. The Hutchinson tires seem to generally seat no problem anways and they hold air without sealant too. The sealant is just extra protection for when you do eventually get a puncture later.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I think I have figured the mounting of the tires out. Replaced my rear tire yesterday and decided to inflate the tire first so that the bead seated in the rim of the wheel. I then deflated the tire and removed about a 6 inch section of the tire off of the wheel. Used a syringe (as suggested above) to get sealant in the wheel/tire and then re-inflated the tire. A little bit of the sealant came out but otherwise got the whole thing down to less than 10 minutes with a lot more successful conclusion. By the way I must say I love the tubeless tires and will probably never go back to regular clinchers. I have been suffering with back issues for years and never enjoyed riding more than 60 kms. This year I am doing 100 plus km rides with no back issues and I think a lot of it has to do with the dampening effect these tires have.


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## OblivionLord (Jul 29, 2010)

I just got my tubless wheels and fusion 3 tires. I tried the hanging method of putting the sealent in with a little of the lip of 1 side of the tire hanging out and pouring the sealent so it runs down the bottom. Thats all fine and said however the biggest problem is getting the new tire onto the wheel. You will be struggling really hard to do this. Meanwhile you'll be shaking the tire around and the sealent at the bottom will seep out of any small tiny opening since this method has you putting the sealent in before the beed fullly rests itself to the side of the wheel.

Its quite messy. Instead I went and got the removable core valves from Stan which is a much much cleaner process since before you even inject the sealent, you have to first inflate the tire so the beed firmly rests against the wheel and then you deflate once you've achomplished that. A hell of alot better process.

Anyway from all the videos I've seen of this stuff... all the puncturing and virtually no air escaped. He even had a video of his MTB running over a floor of nails about 20 times and it still retained air.

With this stuff I see no reason to carry am extra tube. Maybe just 1 cartridge of C02, but that's it just so you can stay at a high psi.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Odd, I haven't had that issue; I fully mount the tire (never been too hard) and inflate it. Of course on some rims it's air-leaky, but not so much that I can't pump it up to 140 lbs and make sure it's generally seated and ok. I can hear the air hissing from the rim seam (if there is one) sometimes.

Then I deflate, hang, push the bead in a bit, inject Stan's next to the bead, let go of the bead, and immediately inflate to the usual 90-100 lbs. Sometimes a little sealant comes out, but not much.

You still need to carry a tube on long rides. Two mornings ago I ran over a piece of metal that *shredded* the tire. That one didn't have more than about 1500 k's on it; what a waste. Fortunately we were almost done with the ride, so one of the other guys went and got his truck and gave me a ride. Had we not been close to the end, I would have had to boot it and put in a tube. No other way to fix.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

PMT that is the method I am now using and it works to a T. I think the problem is that the Stan's video is confusing the issue for those with Tubeless tires instead of the kits. I think what happened to me is that by attempting to put the Stan's in the tire and then inflating the wheel is that the crystals get stuck in the bead and make inflating it near impossible. The trick as you say is to inflate, seat the bead, deflate, pour in the Stan's and then reinflate. Don't think the 2 piece stems are required. 
Sorry to hear about your tire, just happened to me too.
Wiggle (landed, no postage) 2 tires for $105 canadian.


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## OblivionLord (Jul 29, 2010)

How exactly would you be able to push the beed in a little on a road bike 23mm when there barley is any room to pour in the liquid? I can see if you are using a thin injector of some sort, but still If your injecting it by pushing the beed in after you've deflated the tire then the liquid has a high chance of going in between the beed and wheel instead of going rolling through the inside the tire. If that happens then you're not getting the full amount of the required liquid within the tire.

Besides 2 Valves and an injector is $40 shipped. That's far from breaking the bank.

Then again, if you still have to carry around a tube because there is still a chance of getting a flat then why even use this sealant? According to the videos shown demonstrating how this stuff works on road tires, he was puncturing it with a pins over and over. It still held air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU5hR-suxQU&feature=related

"In the last 24 hours we lost less than 10psi in this tire with over 25 punctures"

I'm actually using the Fusion 3


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

You just use a plastic syringe. I can push the bead in and see the Stan's yellow tape, so I aim it right there and inject. Easy as pie. There's plenty of room to squeeze the 23mm tire.

The point of carrying a tube is for a drastic emergency, like a serious tire cut. Minor punctures get sealed by sealant so you don't even necessarily have to stop.

I have four sets of different wheels with Stan's conversions and Road Tubeless, and easily over ten thousand kilometers, so I probably have a good idea of how it works. Maybe not though; perhaps someone with fifteen thousand k's on Road Tubeless would like to correct me.


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

I think Stan's does themselves a disservice in explaining how to put these tires on because once you figure it out it is quite simple. No need for the 2 piece presta valve or tape if you are running a tubeless wheel to begin with but they don't explain that very well. I learned more from the posters in this thread then from Stan's. Stan's has a forum on their website as well and it would appear from other comments that if you can install these without their stems and tape (if you are running tubeless wheels) then you are probably better off as some experienced problems with air escaping near the valve.


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## EpiphFreddy (Oct 12, 2006)

The people that are leaking air at the valve probably did not have it seated properly and probably did not have the nut tightened fully. In addition the Mavic type UST valve requires a small rubber O ring which people probably forget to install thus causing leaks. You don't "have" to use the 2 piece valve (with the removeable core), but it allows installing sealant while the tire remains seated on the rim once installed. For that matter, you can make your own stem from an old tube and just install it yourself. You just cut it to size. You don't have to buy the $10 Stans "tubeless" valve stem.


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## Brazos (Jun 20, 2009)

This really is not hard. I just got some Ultegra 6700 wheels and Hutchinson Atom tubeless tires. I went thru a learning curve getting them seated the first time and rode them w/o sealant w/o problems for a few weeks. I had a 100K charity ride so right before the ride I just deflated my tires (my 6700 wheels did not come with vales with removable cores?) and used my tire lever to unseat a few inches of the bead outside the rim. The Stan's Sealant bottle comes with a cone shaped lid with a red cap. I cut the end of the cone shape lid off and squirted plenty of Stan's in the tire. The I just used the tire levers to put the bead back in the rim and aired them up. It took about 5-10 minutes for both front and rear. No big deal.


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## sbindra (Oct 18, 2004)

I had a tire with a slow leak last weekend. The sealant was a couple of weeks old and kind of dry (and I only used half the amount recommended).

I patched the tire and it took air. The tire inflated up nicely on Saturday. By the time I went back on Monday morning, the tire was totally flat.

Not sure if the tire is still leaking or if the the sidewalls did not seal up really well. I did not clean out the dry sealant that well. Debating whether I should try and reinstall the tire using new sealant and hope for the best? I have tubeless wheels so a new tire properly installed will inflate without the need for sealant.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

Yeah, you might make sure it's all cleaned out well, remount/reseal, over-inflate (140-180) and then check in water to find if there's a leak or not.

I use a wallpaper tray to do the water check, since it's long and skinny.

When you put the new sealant in, hold the wheel horizontally and shake it around as you turn it to make sure the sealant gets all the way around.

And on a related subject, I just did a 200k on a new Fusion3; couldn't tell any difference from the Fusion2. Check back with me in 6000k and we'll see if it wears any differently.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

over 3K on tubeless and here are my thoughts

Fusion 3 is a tougher tire and less prone to slits vice fusion2 - the two is little better when it is wet

i prefer caffee latex - i understand it does not have any ammonia in it and rims look fine

you should probably clean out your tire/rim every 3-4 months as it will dry up some

caffee latex has an inejector and you can squirt it in via a regular presta valve

so mount the tire, inflate to 120 psi and get it seated, then deflate, and inject the liquid through the valve, and reinflate

i usually use 25ml instead of the 50 ml

if you get a hole, the best thing is to keep riding - i have had numerous holes but only had one hole with the sealant where i had to stop 

it took me awhile to realize that on some of my longer rides that my rear wheel got mushy because i lost some air while the leak was getting plugged.

if the tire goes flat just put a tube in it and keep riding

If you get a flat often a bumpy 'scab' will form on the outside, don't pick it off, unless you are prepared to ride around to get it to seal again

it is fairly easy to seal the hole long term with a patch inside

i don't even bother with water and soap when sealing up the tire - the fusion 3's seem easier to mount

the hardest part is making sure the tire is seated around the valve, i can rememer spending 30 minutes once trying to mount it and using a compressor before i released i just didn't get the tire down around the valve

i know it says don't use them, but i have to use a plastic tire iron to install and remove

hutchinson offers a special tire iron that is wider and has this sponge with a soap/water reservoir but i just use my 20 year old plastic nashbar ones

personally i really like tubeless - no snake bites, a little softer ride with lower pressure, much fewer tire changes


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## cervelott (Mar 18, 2010)

Interesting read. Surprised to hear about your preference for the Caffee Sealant as it got a horrible review in this month's Mountain Bike Action (Sept) magazine. But each to their own and glad to hear you like the tubeless!


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

cervelott said:


> pmt not sure how you were so successful but a friend and I tried putting on a tire and we were averaging at least 30 minutes. Found it very hard to seal the tire without any air in it, and even when using a syringe and some tubing the sealant was coming out of the bottom of the tire. Perhaps hanging it would help. Did you use the soap method to get the bead on? I found that the little granules in the sealant actually seemed affect the seal of the bead.
> 
> Martin are you using a 2 piece Presta valve as I can't imagine being able to snug the valve back into a Campy wheel without access to it from the inside rim.


I have the same problem with my new set of Campag Shamals 2-way and Hutchinson Fusion 3 tires. The front one was installed with little hassle, except for me over-worrying about using a plastic tire lever (actually, two). But, with a little soapy water the tire set in and sealed on first try with several nice little 'pop's.

The rear one was trouble, though. I used soapy water, noticed only little leaking, so Ieft it at 100 psi overnight to find it totally flat in the morning. I uninstalled the tire, and re-installed again, noticed still some bubbly leaks, filled it to 110 psi, and a few hours later it's completely flat again. 

While doing all this, I noticed that if I deflate the tire through the valve, then some creasing appears in-between sections that are still seated in the rim. Is this normal? I took the entire tire off a few times to make sure that it is all uniform and there is no crease when the tire is off. 

So I then got some Stan's, took a small section off of the rim after the last attempt to seat/seal the tire, and pored some Stan's in. Of course, this made a mess when I tried to pump the tire up, but after the tire finally seated/sealed properly.

Throughout all this I had hang the wheels on my repair stand, as I have read in many posts that this is important. 

Now I have a few questions:
1. Is it common to need sealants just to properly seat/seal the tires? 
2. Is this a more common problem with new tires? I read on several MTB forums that the recommendation is to first run new tires with a tube for a week or so to stretch the tires. Then running it (esp. the install) is much easier.
3. Should I have checked even more thoroughly for creases from the folds while the tire was packaged? 

Also, I tried using Hutchinson's Fast'Air. There are two models. One has the rubber hose thingie and the other does not. I highly recommend the former, and to avoid the latter like the damn plague. In the latter version, the bottle is activated by pressing down on the top portion. Unfortunately, the top portion has a rubber stopper which job is to connect and seal with your presta valve. So while you are trying to get the rubber to connect, it's hard to keep from not applying pressure on the top portion of the can. Basically the same button is for aiming and firing. What a stupid design. 

Thanks in advance.


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

orange_julius said:


> While doing all this, I noticed that if I deflate the tire through the valve, then some creasing appears in-between sections that are still seated in the rim. Is this normal?


Sure, I've seen that.



orange_julius said:


> 1. Is it common to need sealants just to properly seat/seal the tires?


Yes. Not everyone or every wheel/tire needs it, but there are going to be manufacturing imperfections that require sealant.



orange_julius said:


> 2. Is this a more common problem with new tires? I read on several MTB forums that the recommendation is to first run new tires with a tube for a week or so to stretch the tires. Then running it (esp. the install) is much easier.


That couldn't hurt, but I've not needed to do that.



orange_julius said:


> 3. Should I have checked even more thoroughly for creases from the folds while the tire was packaged?


Nah, they're all going to have folds.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

cervelott said:


> Interesting read. Surprised to hear about your preference for the Caffee Sealant as it got a horrible review in this month's Mountain Bike Action (Sept) magazine. But each to their own and glad to hear you like the tubeless!



as a sealant for mountain bike tires the caffeelatex is pretty thin - stans seems thicker and probabaly seals better although i haven't done a comparative test

for most roadbike punctures, caffeelatex will get the job done and because it is thinner you can inject it through the presta valve without removing it

i had also read some conflicting reports in regards to corrosion of aluminum rims, specifically the dura ace with Stan's - i have no direct experience with that

i can only say that the caffeelatex, so far, has not had any affect on my wh7850 wheel set


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