# The factory cut a giant hole cut into my carbon fiber top tube



## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

*The factory cut a giant hole into my carbon fiber top tube*

When I removed the cable guide from the side of the top tube in my new frame I discovered a large rectangular opening. I know that a hole is necessary to route the rear brake cable through. My question is why does the hole have to be so large? It makes me a little bit nervous to know that there is such a seemingly oversized hole in the frame. Is this what you typically find when you remove a cable guide on a carbon fiber frame? 

The frame is a 2010 Lapierre Xelius.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

I've seen this on an aluminum bike or two. My guesses to why that hole is big...

To provide the best/compatable interface for the guide to clamp on?
Make re-routing, whenever necessary, easier?
Keeping things simple in one way or another? 

This sounds a bit light-hearted, but the only vulnerability I see through that is from heavy vertical forces/loads, and well, you're not really supposed to sit on the top tube anyway.


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## roadbike_moron (Sep 22, 2007)

Wow...that's shocking!


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## padawan716 (Mar 22, 2008)

My look has a smaller one. As long as it's unaltered and it's supposed to be that way, I don't see anything that would worry me.


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## velomateo (Mar 7, 2009)

It makes your frame lighter.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

That might be larger than the ones on some Cervelo downtubes, but not by much, and in a lower stress spot.


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

padawan716 said:


> My look has a smaller one. As long as it's unaltered and it's supposed to be that way, I don't see anything that would worry me.


I may install an internal carbon fiber patch to transfer loads around the opening better. The large rectangular cut is a stress riser that I would rather not have to think about while I am riding.


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

The hole has to be that size so that when the cable goes into the frame it won't enter it an acute angle which could lead to kinking & cause problems. If you ever watched any of the videos of the pinarello or derosa factories on youtube, you'll be surprised at how much drilling that goes on with pneumatic air drills on completed carbon frames. 

People are under the impression that carbon is uber high tech & involves voodoo black magic of the sort. Carbon construction/layup is a time consuming but relatively straight forward process that anyone with a little research could do themselves & indeed some members here have done so by building their own bikes. Technology only comes into play in the design of the frame. Large companies use sophisticated computer CAD/CAM & FEMA programs to make bikes lighter, more aero, stiffer etc. 

So I'm pretty sure that opening of that size at that location is most likely reinforced at that spot internally with extra layup like the double butting in steel frames where its thinner in the middle & thicker at the ends so to speak. So no worries, I'm pretty sure the bike designers know what they're doing.


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## robncircus (Oct 28, 2009)

My aluminum frame had holes that size. If they were dangerous I imagine they wouldn't do it. Not like you were riding around saying "damn my frame is flexy I wonder if there is a hole there" right?


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I may install an internal carbon fiber patch to transfer loads around the opening better.


would that void any applicable warranties? Be honest, if you hadn't removed the cable guide would you even care?


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I may install an internal carbon fiber patch to transfer loads around the opening better. The large rectangular cut is a stress riser that I would rather not have to think about while I am riding.


Think that's bad, consider all the internal stuff you can't see! I'd fill the hole frame up with epoxy.

Yes, restructuring your frame with ad hoc gussetts will void you warranty. And rightly so. Everybody wants to be an engineer...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm sure Lapierre didn't bother to check that the large hole there wouldn't cause problems. I'm sure there's probably some crazed guy in charge of "random hole cutting" who hacks away at frames all day while singing songs from Moulin Rouge. I'm positive their designers/engineers are two-bit hacks who don't have a clue how to design a toothpick, let alone a bike frame.


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I'm sure Lapierre didn't bother to check that the large hole there wouldn't cause problems. I'm sure there's probably some crazed guy in charge of "random hole cutting" who hacks away at frames all day while singing songs from Moulin Rouge. I'm positive their designers/engineers are two-bit hacks who don't have a clue how to design a toothpick, let alone a bike frame.


I appreciate what you are saying. I am not suggesting that the designers purposefully specified a dangerously oversized opening. It is possible that the hole was cut incorrectly in the first try, and then oversized to correct the initial error. Things like this happen in factories sometimes.

In a perfect world nobody ever makes a mistake. In the real world...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I appreciate what you are saying. I am not suggesting that the designers purposefully specified a dangerously oversized opening. It is possible that the hole was cut incorrectly in the first try, and then oversized to correct the initial error. Things like this happen in factories sometimes.
> 
> In a perfect world nobody ever makes a mistake. In the real world...


I've worked on a lot of bikes. That opening is in no way "oversized". That's a pretty standard hole size for internal cable routing.


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## roadie01 (Apr 13, 2010)

If the frame is covered under warranty then what is the concern. If the hole is a problem and the frame fails you will receive a new frame. If not your riding happily along and replacing cables is not an exercise in frustration. Keep in mind that if one frame tube fails there are 3 other tubes to keep the bike from completely disintegrating. 

Kind of like this!


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

Holes should actually be molded into a carbon frame, never cut. If you look at some high end companies like Parlee, they refuse to compromise the fibers by cutting them. This creates a significant weakening of the tubes and, depending on where and how the cuts are made, can create stress risers, just like in metal frames.


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## brblue (Jan 28, 2003)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> When I removed the cable guide from the side of the top tube in my new frame I discovered a large rectangular opening. I know that a hole is necessary to route the rear brake cable through. My question is why does the hole have to be so large? It makes me a little bit nervous to know that there is such a seemingly oversized hole in the frame. Is this what you typically find when you remove a cable guide on a carbon fiber frame?
> 
> The frame is a 2010 Lapierre Xelius.


Don't know how tight the cable guide sat in but i can immagine that the cable guide plays a part in solidifying that point. i.e. with cable guide ok, without cable guide some cracks could develop starting from there. But maybe I'm wrong, I wouldn't know about these since i'm riding metal frames


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I appreciate what you are saying. I am not suggesting that the designers purposefully specified a dangerously oversized opening. It is possible that the hole was cut incorrectly in the first try, and then oversized to correct the initial error. Things like this happen in factories sometimes.
> 
> In a perfect world nobody ever makes a mistake. In the real world...


i really can't believe that all this time and effort has been spent worrying about this. does the cable guide fit in the hole reasonably well? or is the hole way too big and you risk losing the guide in the frame? if it fits properly, it's fine. 
as for cutting or drilling into carbon...gimme a break, it's done all the time. the lay-up schedules for frames take into account where holes for bottle cage mounts and cable routing will need to be and the area is reinforced. 
sherpa, can you tell me how you can 'mold' a hole for a water bottle mount? and brblue...that plastic cable guide in no way reinforces the frame. it's just sitting there, guiding the housing.


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> I've worked on a lot of bikes. That opening is in no way "oversized". That's a pretty standard hole size for internal cable routing.


That is reassuring, sort of.


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

roadie01 said:


> If the frame is covered under warranty then what is the concern. If the hole is a problem and the frame fails you will receive a new frame. If not your riding happily along and replacing cables is not an exercise in frustration. Keep in mind that if one frame tube fails there are 3 other tubes to keep the bike from completely disintegrating.
> 
> Kind of like this!


Will the warranty give me new carbon fiber teeth?


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

Sherpa23 said:


> Holes should actually be molded into a carbon frame, never cut. If you look at some high end companies like Parlee, they refuse to compromise the fibers by cutting them. This creates a significant weakening of the tubes and, depending on where and how the cuts are made, can create stress risers, just like in metal frames.


That's how I would have done it if I were designing and manufacturing the frame.


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## roadbike_moron (Sep 22, 2007)

roadie01 said:


> If the frame is covered under warranty then what is the concern. If the hole is a problem and the frame fails you will receive a new frame. If not your riding happily along and replacing cables is not an exercise in frustration. Keep in mind that if one frame tube fails there are 3 other tubes to keep the bike from completely disintegrating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the heck happened there - was that a joke or was it real?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

roadbike_moron said:


> What the heck happened there - was that a joke or was it real?


Looks like a garage door kissed it to me.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

cxwrench said:


> sherpa, can you tell me how you can 'mold' a hole for a water bottle mount?


Sure. In the actual mold, there are inserts or protrusions where the carbon plies fit around, creating a hole in the finished product. It creates a significantly stronger product with much higher durability. For the water bottle mounts, some companies put bolts in place and you simply lock down the cages with the nuts. 

Anyways, the whole weakening of carbon by having holes drilled into it is something that is gaining momentum. Remember your wheel sponsor from last year, Edge Composites (now ENVE)? They were able to create a significantly better product than the two companies their executive and engineering team came from (Reynolds and Lew) because they went the extra steps to mold the holes in the rims instead of drilling like everyone else. They built their entire business model for their rims on this methodology. No broken fibers and weakened areas. Consequently, weren't you able to build wheels with no tension limits and no rider weight limits with very few, if any, broken spokes? Feel free to tell me if that's wrong and the rims were no better than average.

Now, on an overbuilt carbon frame, will a frame with holes drilled into break in 18 months? Probably not. But it's not as strong as one with no holes drilled. As a result, a frame with broken fibers from drilling can be lighter without sacrificing long term durability.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I may install an internal carbon fiber patch to transfer loads around the opening better. The large rectangular cut is a stress riser that I would rather not have to think about while I am riding.


I'd leave the bike designing to the bike designers. The hole size and shape looks pretty darn deliberate to me. And as somebody else said, you may nullify your warranty by making any such modification, even if you think it makes the frame better.


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## wasserbox (Mar 17, 2002)

roadbike_moron said:


> What the heck happened there - was that a joke or was it real?


That's what happens when you try to ride without the wheels.


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## ApplemanBicycles (Nov 25, 2010)

Wowza!!! I hope the rider wasn't hurt as bad as the frame.



roadie01 said:


> If the frame is covered under warranty then what is the concern. If the hole is a problem and the frame fails you will receive a new frame. If not your riding happily along and replacing cables is not an exercise in frustration. Keep in mind that if one frame tube fails there are 3 other tubes to keep the bike from completely disintegrating.
> 
> Kind of like this!



One can't compare holes in carbon fiber frames to those of aluminum. Metal bikes distribute forces better than a hole in carbon fiber. It's EXTREMELY important that the frame manufacturer added reinforcement around the hole... otherwise the stress won't transfer around the hole!


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

ApplemanBicycles said:


> It's EXTREMELY important that the frame manufacturer added reinforcement around the hole... otherwise the stress won't transfer around the hole!


It does not seem as if they did. If they did it is not noticeable. I am going to install an internal patch. I will have to insert a balloon to maintain adequate pressure on the carbon and resin while it cures. I will also have to apply a vacuum to the inside of the top tube during curing to remove air bubbles from the resin. I can probably do that from the cable routing hole at the front of the top tube. This should be an interesting little project. It won't add more than five grams to the frame weight, but will increase it's longevity significantly.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

I've worked on several bikes that had internal cable routing with access holes that large. 

I think you are trying to solve a problem that is non-existant. If your seriously concerned about durability of the frame, how about contacting the manufacturer and bringing up your concerns with them.

Any type of modification performed by the end user will void any warranty the manufacturer has in place.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> It does not seem as if they did. If they did it is not noticeable. I am going to install an internal patch. I will have to insert a balloon to maintain adequate pressure on the carbon and resin while it cures. I will also have to apply a vacuum to the inside of the top tube during curing to remove air bubbles from the resin. I can probably do that from the cable routing hole at the front of the top tube. This should be an interesting little project. It won't add more than five grams to the frame weight, *but will increase it's longevity significantly*.


I seriously doubt that. As I said, that's a very common hole size for internal cable routing. Not just the size, but the shape, too. I've pulled many plastic inserts out of holes exactly like that so I could put in new cables. You know how many frames I've seen break there? None. I've seen them break in many other places, but never, ever have I seen a frame break at the brake cable hole.

You are not going to add longevity to your frame. All you're going to do is void the warranty because you think you're smarter than the frame designers.

Harsh, maybe, but true.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

ApplemanBicycles said:


> One can't compare holes in carbon fiber frames to those of aluminum. Metal bikes distribute forces better than a hole in carbon fiber.


Either that... or the exact opposite. But it's definitely one of the two.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

PlatyPius said:


> I seriously doubt that. As I said, that's a very common hole size for internal cable routing. Not just the size, but the shape, too. I've pulled many plastic inserts out of holes exactly like that so I could put in new cables. You know how many frames I've seen break there? None. I've seen them break in many other places, but never, ever have I seen a frame break at the brake cable hole.
> 
> You are not going to add longevity to your frame. All you're going to do is void the warranty because you think you're smarter than the frame designers.
> 
> Harsh, maybe, but true.



Bingo...I have a 1988 LOOK carbon frame that has two of those sized holes( front and back). For some reason it's managed to stay together all these years... 

I honestly can't believe this is a topic....For #$%@ sake, it was designed that way....

If people are that worried about carbon, buy a bike made from another material....

Rant over.......


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## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

Brings to mind my miserable experiences with the Trek 6 series I somewhat stupidly bought in 2009 - and the replacement frame some 1000 miles later, when the headtube cracked. 

Both had holes similar to the OPs findings around the rear brake cable rear top tube exit. The exit guide's flange provided both anchorage for a single screw and covered a hole that miserably failed to inspire faith. Had expected this hole to be moulded in, but 'Hacked out' came to mind. In a couple of places, a cut had over-shot the cut it was at right angles to, hacking into CF outside the hole.

This shoddy workmanship suggests the front end of the brake cable was treat in similar manner.

The cable guide sat in the hole and was retained by a single screw secured by a nut retained by the CF moulding. That bolt had a very flat head so it sat well-night hidden by the brake cable outer to the rear brake and that it closely matched the black plastic of the cable guide. Thus it looked very well 'finished' if casually viewed.

After the messing around to fit a brake cable into this Trek, any frame I get in the future will have boring old external cables. For the miniscule 'benefits' of internal cables, I can live without them.

Not what you'd expect in a frame of that 'quality' - or perhaps that level of marketing and advertisement is closer to the mark?

Regards

Dereck


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> It does not seem as if they did. If they did it is not noticeable. I am going to install an internal patch. I will have to insert a balloon to maintain adequate pressure on the carbon and resin while it cures. I will also have to apply a vacuum to the inside of the top tube during curing to remove air bubbles from the resin. I can probably do that from the cable routing hole at the front of the top tube. This should be an interesting little project. It won't add more than five grams to the frame weight, but will increase it's longevity significantly.


you're really going to do this?  have you ever heard of one these frames breaking or cracking because of that cable routing hole? do you really somehow think you know more about frame design and layup than the engineers that designed this frame? do you really not care that you will void any warranty you do have by modifying your frame? 

really?


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> you're really going to do this?  have you ever heard of one these frames breaking or cracking because of that cable routing hole? do you really somehow think you know more about frame design and layup than the engineers that designed this frame? do you really not care that you will void any warranty you do have by modifying your frame?
> 
> really?


I will post pictures of the results.


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## padawan716 (Mar 22, 2008)

How will we know if it increases longevity?

:idea: 

My proposal: Buy another one of those frames (size 49 or so), send it to me, and I'll try riding it without the patch. Then we'll have the experimental frame and the control frame. :thumbsup:


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I will post pictures of the results.


Why do you think people want to see "results" when you have basically been told it is a dumb thing to do by a number of respondents?

I vote you have too much time on your hands and that you should fill this time with actually riding instead of "fixing" stuff that is not broken.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> I will post pictures of the results.


It will be nice to see proof that you are a fool, rather than having to live in fear that you might be.

So, to "reinforce" your frame, you'll have to sand down into the carbon, which will weaken it. Then you'll attempt to bond on more carbon using an epoxy of unknown compatibility with the stuff already there, and your "reinforcement" will be on the inside diameter of the tube, which doesn't do anything to prevent cracks which always start on the outside.

Sounds brilliant. You may end up with a weaker frame from your tinkering, voided the warranty and made a mockery of yourself, but at least you'll have the satisfaction of a job well done.:thumbsup:


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

rx-79g said:


> It will be nice to see proof that you are a fool, rather than having to live in fear that you might be.
> 
> So, to "reinforce" your frame, you'll have to sand down into the carbon, which will weaken it. Then you'll attempt to bond on more carbon using an epoxy of unknown compatibility with the stuff already there, and your "reinforcement" will be on the inside diameter of the tube, which doesn't do anything to prevent cracks which always start on the outside.
> 
> Sounds brilliant. You may end up with a weaker frame from your tinkering, voided the warranty and made a mockery of yourself, but at least you'll have the satisfaction of a job well done.:thumbsup:


Yawn...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> Yawn...


if you didn't have so many posts i'd say you were trolling. i just can't understand why on earth you think that this is something that needs to be done. it's just completely beyond me...


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## macedeno21 (Dec 30, 2009)

you would be surprised how strong carbon really is... unless you weigh 275+ I wouldn't worry about it...


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## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

macedeno21 said:


> you would be surprised how strong carbon really is... unless you weigh 275+ I wouldn't worry about it...


I'm not worrying about it in the slightest  

However, at what that (T)Rek cost, a little better workmanship was expected. After finding that level of hacking a hole into the top tube, one starts to wonder what else was done by drooling morons who didn't give a hoot. 

Still, it achieved its primary aim

D


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Dereck said:


> I'm not worrying about it in the slightest
> 
> However, at what that (T)Rek cost, a little better workmanship was expected. After finding that level of hacking a hole into the top tube, one starts to wonder what else was done by drooling morons who didn't give a hoot.
> 
> ...


What Trek? The OPs frame is made by Lapierre.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> What Trek? The OPs frame is made by Lapierre.


If you read the poster "Dereck"'s story he was complaining about the shoddy cutouts for the internal cable routing on his 6 series Trek Madone and comparing it to the OP's story (although he didn't claim he was going to fix it either which is quite humorous).


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

double post


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

gamara said:


> People are under the impression that carbon is uber high tech & involves voodoo black magic of the sort.


Actually CF is just really expensive fiber glass. Construction techniques are almost identical. That's hard to swallow when you're paying big money for a CF frameset though.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

cs1 said:


> Actually CF is just really expensive, *( and in demand by many industries that dwarf cycling because of it's strength/weight ratio)* fiber glass. Construction techniques are almost identical. That's hard to swallow when you're paying big money for a CF frameset though.


fixed that for you...
you should realize that a lot of the cost of a carbon frame is the research and development, CAD time is not cheap. wind tunnel time is not cheap. making molds and laying up prototypes is not cheap. buying relatively (compared to aerospace/military) small quantities of materials doesn't get you the greatest deals. sponsoring pro teams (so you, the retail customer, thinks the frame/fork/wheels/bar/post) is cool enough to buy in the first place is not cheap. 

while the process of laying pieces of carbon fibre in a mold is pretty much exactly the same as doing it w/ fibreglass...there are lots of other costs involved that drive the price up.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> fixed that for you...
> you should realize that a lot of the cost of a carbon frame is the research and development, CAD time is not cheap. wind tunnel time is not cheap. making molds and laying up prototypes is not cheap. buying relatively (compared to aerospace/military) small quantities of materials doesn't get you the greatest deals. sponsoring pro teams (so you, the retail customer, thinks the frame/fork/wheels/bar/post) is cool enough to buy in the first place is not cheap.
> 
> while the process of laying pieces of carbon fibre in a mold is pretty much exactly the same as doing it w/ fibreglass...there are lots of other costs involved that drive the price up.


^ this. No one every considers that. Everyone thinks that you just slap some carbon in a mold and out comes a frame. Pow. Shouldn't be more than $300. They don't consider all of the people - who need to be paid - who contributed to that particular frame coming into being.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I think that hole in your frame is just another example of the French being out to get us. Therefore I too would be quaking in my cycling shoes. That thing could give out any second. I would not even ride that thing on the trainer! Please patch that hole immediately!
Make sure you post lots of pics here so any one else with one of these French time bombs can use your techniques. 
I would also like to see some great action shots of you riding it afterwords because I have never actually seen a tin foil bike helmet.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> ^ this. No one every considers that. Everyone thinks that you just slap some carbon in a mold and out comes a frame. Pow. Shouldn't be more than $300. They don't consider all of the people - who need to be paid - who contributed to that particular frame coming into being.


To be fair, what bike doesn't have R&D costs? Reynolds hottest new steel tubeset and the Pacenti lugs used to build it into a frame required large amounts of R&D built into the cost of those materials.

Shaped carbon frames have more factors going into their production, but these aren't space shuttles. The bonding techniques are still evolving, but within a fairly limited confine. Wall thicknesses are dicated by weight and fabric, so they are becoming fairly uniform. Aerodynamics is of interest, but many aero looking frames simply aren't.

Every week a new brand of carbon fiber bike seems to pop up. Either the population of incredibly qualified bicycle composite engineers is growing faster than rabbits in Australia, or designing and executing a carbon bicycle isn't as difficult as it used to be.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> To be fair, what bike doesn't have R&D costs? Reynolds hottest new steel tubeset and the Pacenti lugs used to build it into a frame required large amounts of R&D built into the cost of those materials.
> 
> Shaped carbon frames have more factors going into their production, but these aren't space shuttles. The bonding techniques are still evolving, but within a fairly limited confine. Wall thicknesses are dicated by weight and fabric, so they are becoming fairly uniform. Aerodynamics is of interest, but many aero looking frames simply aren't.
> 
> Every week a new brand of carbon fiber bike seems to pop up. Either the population of incredibly qualified bicycle composite engineers is growing faster than rabbits in Australia, or designing and executing a carbon bicycle isn't as difficult as it used to be.


Or some of those brands are just pointing at a bike model in the manufacturer's catalog and saying "Gimme that." All of those "generic" models were created by someone at some point. Whether they are actually decent is the great unknown.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

PlatyPius said:


> Or some of those brands are just pointing at a bike model in the manufacturer's catalog and saying "Gimme that." All of those "generic" models were created by someone at some point. Whether they are actually decent is the great unknown.


Sure, but the lastest Focus, Blue, sailboard company bike don't look the same. They are contoured differently, have different geometry, etc. They aren't generic, but they did pop fully formed out of some titan's head. That indicates that there are certain principles at work that are easily translated to new "designs" without having to do a ground up engineering study.

_Bicycle 'designer', "Can you put a bulge here on the bottom of the down tube?"
Chinese carbon engineer, "Sure, boss. Costs five extra grams, won't affect stiffness."
Bicycle 'designer', "Oh, groovy. Do it."_

In this example, the smart guy is not the designer - it is the engineer who has seen so many different frame lay-ups that he know what is and isn't important, and how to adjust for them.

In the examples in this thread, there are probably some pretty well established rules about how big a hole you can have a certain distance from the joints and not cause problems. A hole does not necessarily cause stress risers as long as it doesn't have corners that mess with fiber orientation. Is this the best possible cable hole? Nope, but it is probably less stress on the frame's structure than an external cable stop that has to absorb braking tensions. Probably a lot less stress.


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## Dereck (Jan 31, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> If you read the poster "Dereck"'s story he was complaining about the shoddy cutouts for the internal cable routing on his 6 series Trek Madone and comparing it to the OP's story (although he didn't claim he was going to fix it either which is quite humorous).


Let's say that while I have a little - very little - theoretical knowledge of CF construction, there's no way I would attempt to 'repair' suchlike. A likely ending to such a story is epoxy over much of the surrounding area and some CF mat partially stuck around the offending area and doing little beyond upping takings at the CF supplier.

Being English, I will not demean myself by saying anything bad about the French. After all, it's been a handy country to hold wars in, and its full of Frenchmen, but otherwise, it's not that bad a place 

D


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rx-79g said:


> In the examples in this thread, there are probably some pretty well established rules about how big a hole you can have a certain distance from the joints and not cause problems. A hole does not necessarily cause stress risers as long as it doesn't have corners that mess with fiber orientation. Is this the best possible cable hole? Nope, but it is probably less stress on the frame's structure than an external cable stop that has to absorb braking tensions. Probably a lot less stress.


i'll agree w/ this, for sure. i've had riveted on housing stops pull off certain Belgian made frames, but i've never seen any TT frame w/ the large hole/plastic or metal housing stop have a problem...ever.


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

rx-79g said:


> A hole does not necessarily cause stress risers as long as it doesn't have corners that mess with fiber orientation. Is this the best possible cable hole? Nope, but it is probably less stress on the frame's structure than an external cable stop that has to absorb braking tensions. Probably a lot less stress.


The hole in the picture I provided is rectangular. There is no way that it avoids cutting through critical fibers. The posts from members experienced with carbon fiber frames are reassuring, but I still feel that the solution that Lapierre selected is_ far_ from optimal. I am disappointed to find such a clumsy solution in a frame of this caliber, especially when a better one is not that complicated or expensive.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> The hole in the picture I provided is rectangular. There is no way that it avoids cutting through critical fibers. The posts from members experienced with carbon fiber frames are reassuring, but I still feel that the solution that Lapierre selected is_ far_ from optimal. I am disappointed to find such a clumsy solution in a frame of this caliber, especially when a better one is not that complicated or expensive.


you don't get it, do you? thousands and thousands of frames have been made w/ the same type of openings for brake housing. have you EVER read about it being a problem, anywhere?how do you feel about Cervelo? more engineering might per square foot than any other bike company on the planet. they do the same thing. seriously...find something else to worry about.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> The hole in the picture I provided is rectangular. There is no way that it avoids cutting through critical fibers. The posts from members experienced with carbon fiber frames are reassuring, but I still feel that the solution that Lapierre selected is_ far_ from optimal. I am disappointed to find such a clumsy solution in a frame of this caliber, especially when a better one is not that complicated or expensive.


Looks radiused to me. No sharp corners. 

You're an alarmist. Your carbon steerer and carbon seat post are the parts with uneven loads on them that can and do crack - worry about them.

Have you ever even seen a picture or heard of the kind of failure you are so concerned about? I was unable to find to find ANYTHING after searching ye olde internets. Not even here:
http://www.bustedcarbon.com/search?q=cable+hole

I don't think you'll find one.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> The hole in the picture I provided is rectangular. There is no way that it avoids cutting through critical fibers. The posts from members experienced with carbon fiber frames are reassuring, but I still feel that the solution that Lapierre selected is_ far_ from optimal. I am disappointed to find such a clumsy solution in a frame of this caliber, especially when a better one is not that complicated or expensive.



You know how many holes are cut into this mast? The holes are drilled after the mast is molded...Some how it manages to stay upright.


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

Hey at least that hole is not as big as an airliners window (whether made of alloy or carbon) with only weak plastic or brittle glass glued? in place

ps I had a steel Miyata years ago that cracked around both unreinforced top tube cable holes , but Im sure Lapierre added some material in that area to account for the hole.


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## Deus_Ex_Machina (Sep 4, 2010)

latman said:


> Hey at least that hole is not as big as an airliners window (whether made of alloy or carbon) with only weak plastic or brittle glass glued? in place
> 
> ps I had a steel Miyata years ago that cracked around both unreinforced top tube cable holes , but Im sure Lapierre added some material in that area to account for the hole.


It seems that they did not.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> It seems that they did not.


So have you destroyed your frame yet?

Be sure to post pics when you do...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

It looks like a bad job of cutting that hole though.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

froze said:


> It looks like a bad job of cutting that hole though.


It doesn't look cut at all, to me. The edges are rounded and the shape regular. 

The bike is used and there are scuff marks running into the hole, but the hole itself looks like it was pressed in from the tube form.

(I'm assuming we're still talking about the Lapierre.)


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

Much ado about nothing.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

rx-79g said:


> It doesn't look cut at all, to me. The edges are rounded and the shape regular.
> 
> The bike is used and there are scuff marks running into the hole, but the hole itself looks like it was pressed in from the tube form.
> 
> (I'm assuming we're still talking about the Lapierre.)


No no.... it was obviously hacked into the frame with a box cutter by a crazed Siberian eunuch.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

These concerns can be alleviated by riding frames with this type of construction and material. Now if some concrete finds you and pours a cubic yard on you...that is out of my hands.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Please stop feeding the monkey.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Deus_Ex_Machina said:


> It seems that they did not.


how can you tell? it would be reinforced from the inside.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> how can you tell? it would be reinforced from the inside.


Even if it isn't, the idea that it needs reinforcement is simply the guesses of people who know almost nothing about composite manufacture. 

The hole in question is even, has rounded corners and contoured edges. It is obviously executed exactly as designed.

If I had a bike whose external details made me think the frame wasn't well designed, I wouldn't ride it. If the obvious stuff is so suspect, what about the important hidden stuff? 

Either Lapierre knows what they are doing, or not. If not, the frame is going to fail in a high stress area on the downtube or chain stays. 

So the bike is unsafe - don't ride it.


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## GirchyGirchy (Feb 12, 2004)

Top secret pic of OP's bicycle manufacturer cutting holes in the tubes:


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## EMB145 Driver (Aug 17, 2006)

Speaking of manufacturer made holes in carbon fiber........


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

GirchyGirchy said:


> Top secret pic of OP's bicycle manufacturer cutting holes in the tubes:


doesn't it just p!ss you off?


... and to make things worse, those dirty sumb!tches have distant relatives doing the same thing to American bikes!!! Slash and Hack ....


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

*should I worry?`*

I just found out that the guy who brazed the front top tube lug on my 1985 Merckx got dumped by his girl friend the day before he was to assemble my frame. I'm worried that his mind wasn't on the job totally and and I'm thinking of taking my frame apart at the lugs and re- brazing it. I've never actually brazed anything before but I'm sure I can do it and it will be a good worthwile project. What do you guys think? I'm sure this is a common concern.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

martinrjensen said:


> I just found out that the guy who brazed the front top tube lug on my 1985 Merckx got dumped by his girl friend the day before he was to assemble my frame. I'm worried that his mind wasn't on the job totally and and I'm thinking of taking my frame apart at the lugs and re- brazing it. I've never actually brazed anything before but I'm sure I can do it and it will be a good worthwile project. What do you guys think? I'm sure this is a common concern.



Just JB Weld around the lugs and you'll be good to go:thumbsup:


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

88 rex said:


> Just JB Weld around the lugs and you'll be good to go:thumbsup:



Agree but first cut a hole in the tube so you can JB Weld on the inside too...of course be sure to reinforce the hole once you do...


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

*will do*

OK, I plan to cut the hole in the frame with a torch. How can I do this without damaging the frame?


Dave Hickey said:


> Agree but first cut a hole in the tube so you can JB Weld on the inside too...of course be sure to reinforce the hole once you do...


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## Carabo (Dec 18, 2009)

Don't lit torch, use as hammer instead. It'll be sharp enough to create a nice clean hole.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

yeah somehow aircraft CF is exactly the same spec'd CF used in your bike so don't worry about it. That's why you have these recalls: 


---Product recall: About 200 Easton EC90 Zero seatposts. The carbon clamp atop the Chinese-made seatpost can crack, posing an accident hazard to the rider. The EC90 Zero post is black with red and gray graphics. Bikes with these posts were sold at Turner Suspension Bicycles, Ibis Cycles and Security Bicycle Accessories retailers in the U.S. from April through August 2010 for $150-$200. Owners should immediately stop riding the bicycles and contact an authorized Easton Sports dealer for a free replacement clamp. More info on the Easton website.

--Product recall: Carbon forks on certain Felt F-series road bikes. Affected models are the 2011 Felt F3, F4, F5, F5 Team and F75. Owners should stop riding these bikes and contact a Felt dealer for a replacement fork. Felt says that although current forks meet CPSC standards and no forks have failed, its in-house testing has detected substandard performance. "Our protocol is to test carbon frames and forks at random from our OEM carbon factory assembly lines," explains Felt company president Bill Duehring. "After testing a cross-section of early production forks we are simply not satisfied." Replacement forks will come from several manufacturers, including Enve, Easton and 3T. Contact Felt Dealer Support at 866-433-5887 or [email protected].

--Widespread bicycle recall due to faulty crank
A Washington-based bicycle component manufacturer is recalling 9,300 bicycles that were outfitted with a faulty crankset that can break, causing falls and injuries.The recall involves 21 different bicycle models from 8 bicycle brands (see list below) that were sold between February and October this year.
The US Consumer Protection Agency urges owners of the listed bicycles to stop using them immediately and take them back to the dealer for inspection and free replacement of the faulty crank arm. Eleven breaks have been reported, and two injuries.
The importer, Full Speed Ahead of Woodinville, Wash., issued the recall for its BB30 Gossamer crankset installed as standard equipment. The cranks were manufactured in Taiwan by TH Industries.

The cranks involved have two drive gears (triples are not involved in the recall). They are painted either black with "Gossamer" printed in white on the arm or white with "Gossamer" printed in black on the arm. The crank arms at fault have serial numbers beginning with either 10B, 10C, or 10D on the backside of the arm, near the pedal threads. If the fixing bolt on the non-driver crank arm is over-tightened, the bolt shoulder can crack or break, causing the crank arm to fall off the bicycle.

The bicycle models in the recall are:
Bianchi
2010 Sempre Ultegra
Cannondale 
2010 CAAD9 5, CAAD9 5 Feminine
2010 Six Carbon 5
2010 Slice 4, Slice 4 Nytro, Slice 5
2010 Synapse Carbon 4, Carbon 4 Feminine, Carbon 5
2011 CAAD10 5 105, CAAD10 5 105 Feminine
2011 Slice 5, Slice 5 Womens
2011 SuperSix 5 105, SuperSix 5 105 Womens
2011 Synapse Carbon 4 Rival, Carbon 4 Rival Womens, Carbon 5
2011 CAAD8 5 105
2011 CAADX 105 Cyclocross
Felt
2011 F75
2011 F75X
Fuji
2010 ACR 1.0
2010 ACR 2.0
2010 ACR 3.0
Quintana Roo
2010 CD.0.1
Litespeed
2010 C3
Raleigh
2011 RX 1.0
2010 RX 1.0
Scattante
2010 CFR Comp
More information
For additional information on obtaining a free replacement non-drive crank arm, contact Full Speed Ahead toll-free at (877) 743-3372 between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. PT Monday through Friday, via email [email protected], or visit the firm’s website atwww.fullspeedahead.com (pdf)

And then there's this:

Carbon Concerns

It's just one man's opinion, but he's in a position to know. A fellow named Aaron Goss, president of Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc., in Seattle, wrote to trade magazine Bicycle Retailer and Industry News to express concerns about the ubiquity of carbon fiber cycling products.

Goss is an admitted carbon cynic. He says flat-out, "Our view has always been that carbon fiber's disadvantages outweigh its supposed advantages."

In the category of food for thought, here's some of what this professional mechanic wrote to his peers in the cycling industry:

---"We are seeing an exponential increase in damaged and broken carbon fiber parts, forks and frames."

---"Carbon should be reserved for race use only. Everyday bikes should be metal."

---"We find it reckless that everyday folks can buy ultralight carbon fiber parts that they assemble themselves and then ride on rough roads."

---"I would say, conservatively, one in 10 [carbon] seatposts is damaged from improper installation."

---"Customers don't like hearing that they need a new handlebar or a fork after a crash."

---"Check out the Busted Carbon blog for JRA [just riding along] broken carbon: http://www.bustedcarbon.com."

---"We have created a web page to educate our customers: http://www.rideyourbike.com/carbonfiber.shtml."

---"Steel trumps all other materials when you factor in durability, repairability and recycleability. It is pleasing to see the industry turning again toward the greenest of all frame materials."


But hey, In every life we have some trouble, when you worry you make it double, don't worry, be happy......


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Luckily there are few issues with aircraft CF.
They are too busy with the issues created by the little known company Rolls Royce.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

The Gossamer crank is alloy. Not carbon fiber. Please make sure all information is correct before posting.


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## Gimme Shoulder (Feb 10, 2004)

I hate to prolong the thread, but the point relative to this particular topic is...Can you point to a single reported failure or one recall resulting from these holes, or holes like them in other frames?

When we put our butts on top of a bike frame (especially carbon), and head on down the road, it implies a certain significant amount of trust in the designer and the manufacturer of that frame, whether you think about it or not. We trust that they've got it all right - the main triangle, bottom bracket, stays, fork, etc - otherwise, we wouldn't ride the bike. Heck, at least we have documented accounts of fork failures, stay failures, main triangle failures, seat post failures, handlebar failures, etc. Let's all go home and wrap some more CF and resin around that stuff.

Truth is, unless you (that's a general "you") designed the bike, you don't know what loads are going through that top tube, or if the carbon fibers interupted are "critical", or if stress risers even make a difference in these specific locations, or if there were compensations designed into the CF layup, shaping, or internal construction.

Best to leave the bike designing to the bike designers, put the cable guide back in the hole, and go for nice agressive ride.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

froze said:


> It's just one man's opinion, but he's in a position to know. A fellow named Aaron Goss, president of Aaron's Bicycle Repair, Inc., in Seattle, wrote to trade magazine Bicycle Retailer and Industry News to express concerns about the ubiquity of carbon fiber cycling products.
> 
> Goss is an admitted carbon cynic. He says flat-out, "Our view has always been that carbon fiber's disadvantages outweigh its supposed advantages."


I somewhat agree with him, however, Aaron Goss is a complete tool. Check out his shop's reputation on Yelp. He charges for assembling the new bikes he sells you, FFS.

Here...I'll help y'all out with a link...
http://www.yelp.com/biz/aarons-bicycle-repair-inc-seattle


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I don't know who Goss is but on the source I got the letter from (RBR) they had high regards for him. As far as charging to assemble a bike that's entirely up to the dealer, and if people don't like it then they don't need to do business in that shop, yet for some reason he sells tons of bikes.


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

Like Aaron I also repair carbon bike frames (but in Australia) and have made carbon paddles for over 20 years now , Whilst that hole may look ugly without the plastic cable guide in place i would guess it will be perfectly strong forevever due to internal reinforcement (that you cannot see)
other than that , sorry to keep this thread going.

ps I hope that same guy did not braze my steel Merckx too.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

Probably not but just to be on the safe side I recomend swapping out the lugs on yours. Also be sure to change out the air in your tires. You dont' want to be riding all summer with winter air in your tires.


latman said:


> ....snipped....
> 
> ps I hope that same guy did not braze my steel Merckx too.


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