# Cycle of Lies



## Bluenote

Has anyone read the latest book on Armstrong "Cycle of Lies?"

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/0...f-the-ride-for-lance-armstrong.html?referrer=

Its getting pretty good reviews and looks like a good book.


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## Local Hero

I almost want to say that exposing Armstrong as an ahole is starting to become old news. I'll wait for it to come out on netflix.


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## ROACHCLASS

I want to pick it up.


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## jlandry

I love books like this, but do we really need another Pharmstrong book?


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## irish

I've quickly gone through the book. I really didn't have the patience to fully read yet another book on Armstrong. There's some new material:
- Armstrong's relationship with JT Neal in the '90s. Macur was the first to have access to a set of tapes Neal made prior to his untimely death from cancel
- Terry Armstrong had much more of a voice. Juliet Macur pulls back the covers of the relationship and paints Terry as being much more involved with Lance than previous told. Terry definitely is no saint, though.
- Some behind the scenes commentary on the federal investigation, USADA report, and then the meeting with Lance afterwards
- Lim's involvement - first with Landis and then to Armstrong on his return in 2009.
(Added: There's substantial debate on how Lim's truthfulness to Macur)

There's very little positive (if any!) on Lance in the entire book.


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## Rokh On

Nope. I did read a review and the comments by Tim Lewis. In the comments someone also gives their personal review of Juliet Macur:

Cycle of Lies review ? Juliet Macur's unflattering portrait of Lance Armstrong | Books | The Observer


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## DrSmile

I haven't heard Dr. Max Testa's name directly associated with the doping program before. He's local to Utah, so I wonder if this exposes him to a possible medical license suspension or revocation.


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## Doctor Falsetti

Rokh On said:


> Nope. I did read a review and the comments by Tim Lewis. In the comments someone also gives their personal review of Juliet Macur:
> 
> Cycle of Lies review ? Juliet Macur's unflattering portrait of Lance Armstrong | Books | The Observer


You mean personal smear of Juliet.


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## ruckus

Doctor Falsetti said:


> You mean personal smear of Juliet.


Good. She is a terrible human being. Obsessed with bringing down others. Her obsession is scary. She is the most despicable person in that whole debacle. Her hatred and malice is despicable.


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## sir duke

ruckus said:


> Good. She is a terrible human being. Obsessed with bringing down others. Her obsession is scary. She is the most despicable person in that whole debacle. Her hatred and malice is despicable.


Did she ever 'win' the TdF?


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## ruckus

sir duke said:


> Did she ever 'win' the TdF?


No. Just the biggest d-bag in cycling related.


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## sir duke

ruckus said:


> No. Just the biggest d-bag in cycling related.


How so?


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## thumper8888

ruckus said:


> Good. She is a terrible human being. Obsessed with bringing down others. Her obsession is scary. She is the most despicable person in that whole debacle. Her hatred and malice is despicable.


Well, this may be true, but I wouldn't say there is evidence backing you in that comment under the article cited above.... the "take-down" comment basically shows she covered him in the same cheerleading fashion most of the press did at his peak....duuuh.
The same thing that 99.99 percent of the nation's sports writers do every day with other athletes and sports stories.
Maybe she got a bug way too far up her butt, but youre going to have to lay out better evidence for it.


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## Nazz44

Just finished it yesterday. I thought it was a better read than "Wheelmen" but nothing really new. Lotta books on Lance going up, lotta books on Lance going down. Best cycling book I've read was David Millers autobigraphy but I can't recall the title.


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## asgelle

Nazz44 said:


> ... but nothing really new. ...


You'd heard that SCA entered the original lawsuit believing they would lose but were playing the long game to get information into print leading to a final resolution? That was news to me.


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## Doctor Falsetti

ruckus said:


> No. Just the biggest d-bag in cycling related.


Big claim. Lots of d-bag's in the sport. Juliet is not one of them


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## ruckus

Delete me


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## DZfan14

Bluenote said:


> Has anyone read the latest book on Armstrong "Cycle of Lies?"
> 
> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/0...f-the-ride-for-lance-armstrong.html?referrer=
> 
> Its getting pretty good reviews and looks like a good book.


Well, I thought I knew everything worth knowing about the whole Armstrong debacle, so I was apprehensive about reading this one. I read the first few chapters at the local bookstore and I was pleasantly surprised. 

His mother's whole spiel about being a single Mom is a complete fabrication. In fact most of the stuff in his personal life is a fabrication or has been distorted to a large degree.

He owns a lot of creepy art. And really he comes across as being even creepier than I suspected. 

I am like a third of the way through it and I think it's a good book with enough fresh information.


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## Local Hero

On a scale of 1-10, how good is the book at delivering the coup de grâce of Armstrong's character assassination?


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## DZfan14

Local Hero said:


> On a scale of 1-10, how good is the book at delivering the coup de grâce of Armstrong's character assassination?


I haven't finished it yet. I think it was already though.


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## spade2you

DZfan14 said:


> Well, I thought I knew everything worth knowing about the whole Armstrong debacle, so I was apprehensive about reading this one. I read the first few chapters at the local bookstore and I was pleasantly surprised.
> 
> His mother's whole spiel about being a single Mom is a complete fabrication. In fact most of the stuff in his personal life is a fabrication or has been distorted to a large degree.
> 
> He owns a lot of creepy art. And really he comes across as being even creepier than I suspected.
> 
> I am like a third of the way through it and I think it's a good book with enough fresh information.












Creepy art like this???

So, his mom wasn't a **** and all of that was made up??? Really?


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## Local Hero

You know, I really liked Armstrong until I heard about his taste in art.


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## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> You know, I really liked Armstrong until I heard about his taste in art.


Here I felt sympathy for him because I thought his mom got around.


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## Bluenote

Local Hero said:


> On a scale of 1-10, how good is the book at delivering the coup de grâce of Armstrong's character assassination?


Kinda hard to assasinate the dead. Its more like throwing the whole dead horse into the glue factory.


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## Local Hero

Bluenote said:


> Kinda hard to assasinate the dead. Its more like throwing the whole dead horse into the glue factory.


Have you heard about the creepy art?


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## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> Have you heard about the creepy art?


......Yes


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## spade2you

Why would anyone lie about their mom "getting around"?


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## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> ......Yes


Tell us about the art! 

Who is the artist, what are the pieces, and why should I use this as another reason to hate a person that neither one of us have ever met?


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## Local Hero

OK, I found some images from the inside of Armstrong's house here: Lance Armstrong's Austin, Texas, Home : Architectural Digest

Here are some of the creepiest:


No normal human being would cook dinner here:










Death trap/torture device hanging above bed:









And check out this one which clearly shows a grown man trying to eat a baby's face off: 









_Not Normal._


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## Doctor Falsetti

Local Hero said:


> neither one of us have ever met?


speak for yourself.

Hate is a strong word. You are welcome to hate him, and use whatever rationale you chose, but I don't hate him.....and I have met him


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## Bluenote

Local Hero said:


> Have you heard about the creepy art?


"Creepy" is relative. 

The author of "Cycle of Lies" thought Armstrong's collection of Christological art was creepy. I didn't find it to be that creepy. Lots of "culture" can be interpreted as (or intentionally is) Christological. "The Old Man and the Sea," "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe," the ending of Harry Potter, etc...

But you are doing the Lawyer 'forest for the trees' thing. So called "creepy" art, was the least of the revelations in "Cycle of Lies." 

So what did you think of how Lance treated his stepfather? Or what he did to JT Neal? Or how his lies to the Livestrong Foundation put it in a bad position and have threatened its mission? 

Wait, lemme guess - you didn't read the book. 

Well, carry on yammering...


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## DrSmile

I am in the middle of reading the book but got distracted by some tire changing video...


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## DZfan14

Bluenote said:


> "Creepy" is relative.
> 
> The author of "Cycle of Lies" thought Armstrong's collection of Christological art was creepy. I didn't find it to be that creepy. Lots of "culture" can be interpreted as (or intentionally is) Christological. "The Old Man and the Sea," "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe," the ending of Harry Potter, etc...
> 
> But you are doing the Lawyer 'forest for the trees' thing. So called "creepy" art, was the least of the revelations in "Cycle of Lies."
> 
> So what did you think of how Lance treated his stepfather? Or what he did to JT Neal? Or how his lies to the Livestrong Foundation put it in a bad position and have threatened its mission?
> 
> Wait, lemme guess - you didn't read the book.
> 
> Well, carry on yammering...


The JT Neal thing just illustrated how much of a narcissistic sociopath Armstrong is. Couple that with the weird artwork that nobody gets, the weird humor that nobody gets and everything else, what you have is a really messed up individual.


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## spade2you

His home looks like a wannabe upscale hotel. Now I hate him.


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## Fireform

Is that where he lives now or the place he used to own outside Austin?


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## irish

Racing the Dark.

It was as good as well. Charly Wegelius' book "Domestique" was pretty good too. "Cycling is no no fairy tale"


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## Bluenote

spade2you said:


> His home looks like a wannabe upscale hotel. Now I hate him.


He bought and sold that house rather quickly. Supposedly he made some good money on the deal. Now you can hate him.


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## Tig

Fireform said:


> Is that where he lives now or the place he used to own outside Austin?


That looks like his old house near Dripping Springs. I wonder if the new owner got any yellow jerseys?


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## spade2you

Bluenote said:


> He bought and sold that house rather quickly. Supposedly he made some good money on the deal. Now you can hate him.


Buy low and sell high or did he make improvements?


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## Local Hero

Doctor Falsetti said:


> and I have met him


Do you think he remembers it? 



DZfan14 said:


> The JT Neal thing just illustrated how much of a narcissistic sociopath Armstrong is. Couple that with the weird artwork that nobody gets, the weird humor that nobody gets and everything else, what you have is a really messed up individual.


Here's the deal, and it's why I think the discussion of a man's art collection is inane and stupid: It's pretty obvious that Macur picked what she found to be the most creepy or strangest art to highlight. If she saw or heard of vanilla art, something everyone has in their house (such as a photo of the Eiffel Tower) she would not mention it. She would only mention those things which she could somehow make offensive. It was not just art. There is no doubt that she did this cherry picking with all of the facts in the man's life, picking out what she found worst or most offensive and spotlighting it. 

For example, let's look at one of Macur's sentences: _Armstrong didn’t like to be alone, so Neal often met him for breakfast at the Upper Crust Cafe..._
-Macur

Let's think about that for a second. I also enjoy eating with others. Many people enjoy the company of others for breakfast. From the outside this may look like a couple of friends regularly eating breakfast together. To Macur, this is a deeply revealing sign of insecurity. "Armstrong didn't like to be alone..." Her writing is dripping with these assumptions and insinuations. 

Starting from a conclusion she was able to collect and assemble enough damning facts to create a nasty narrative. 

This kind of thing doesn't just happen to Armstrong, it happens celebrities and politicians. Just imagine all the horrible things people could say about someone you don't like at the office. Or all of the rumors people in a small town repeat about one another. Or, if someone were to inclined to interview everyone you have ever met, imagine all of the things that could be twisted to paint a terrible picture of you. 






Bluenote said:


> "Creepy" is relative.
> 
> The author of "Cycle of Lies" thought Armstrong's collection of Christological art was creepy. I didn't find it to be that creepy. Lots of "culture" can be interpreted as (or intentionally is) Christological. "The Old Man and the Sea," "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe," the ending of Harry Potter, etc...
> 
> But you are doing the Lawyer 'forest for the trees' thing. So called "creepy" art, was the least of the revelations in "Cycle of Lies."


You call it the least of the revelations, I call it the best of the character assassination. 


> So what did you think of how Lance treated his stepfather?


Joseph? 



spade2you said:


> Here I felt sympathy for him because I thought his mom got around.


Mary?


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## Local Hero

Let's touch on another example of Juliet Macur's conclusion-driven fact finding. But first we should all acknowledge that Armstrong was an outstanding racer who was very dedicated. Yes, even though he was a doped up freak, he worked hard. He had hundreds of top results that spanned two decades. There's no doubt that Neal mentioned several of them along with Armstrong's work ethic and determination. Does Macur highlight any positive? 

No. 

Among what we can only assume are several comments regarding Arsmtrong's success, we have this: 

_The day after Armstrong moved into his new apartment, the Neals saw him ride in Lago Vista, 35 miles from Austin. Armstrong did poorly and admitted to Neal that he’d been up late the night before, drinking at an Austin strip club named the Yellow Rose. Neal passed it off as his being just another rambunctious teenager testing his newfound freedom._


I know guys on my team who have done poorly in races because they partied too hard. We all know people who would have done a little better had they rested more and partied less. We've all seen people who would have done better in school, at work, in relationships, or in different areas of life if they didn't party so hard the night before. This is normal behavior for college-aged individuals. Even Neal dismissed Armstrong's behavior as a kid being a kid. But to Macur this is a another nail in the coffin, a sign of Armstrong's deeply troubled psyche. 

Neal picked out the very worst events from Neal's recollections and even disagrees with Neal's analysis of the events. Her writing is as twisted as Armstrong himself.


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## DZfan14

Local Hero said:


> Do you think he remembers it?
> 
> Here's the deal, and it's why I think the discussion of a man's art collection is inane and stupid: It's pretty obvious that Macur picked what she found to be the most creepy or strangest art to highlight. If she saw or heard of vanilla art, something everyone has in their house (such as a photo of the Eiffel Tower) she would not mention it. She would only mention those things which she could somehow make offensive. It was not just art. There is no doubt that she did this cherry picking with all of the facts in the man's life, picking out what she found worst or most offensive and spotlighting it.
> 
> For example, let's look at one of Macur's sentences: _Armstrong didn’t like to be alone, so Neal often met him for breakfast at the Upper Crust Cafe..._
> -Macur
> 
> Let's think about that for a second. I also enjoy eating with others. Many people enjoy the company of others for breakfast. From the outside this may look like a couple of friends regularly eating breakfast together. To Macur, this is a deeply revealing sign of insecurity. "Armstrong didn't like to be alone..." Her writing is dripping with these assumptions and insinuations.
> 
> Starting from a conclusion she was able to collect and assemble enough damning facts to create a nasty narrative.
> 
> This kind of thing doesn't just happen to Armstrong, it happens celebrities and politicians. Just imagine all the horrible things people could say about someone you don't like at the office. Or all of the rumors people in a small town repeat about one another. Or, if someone were to inclined to interview everyone you have ever met, imagine all of the things that could be twisted to paint a terrible picture of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You call it the least of the revelations, I call it the best of the character assassination.
> Joseph?
> 
> Mary?


The artwork mention was in the foreword. It was hardly the hallmark of the book. Like I said, I've only read about 100 pages. But it stuck in my mind for some reason. The fact that you seem to be homing in on it as some sort of proof that she needs to make up reasons to prove that he is a weirdo is laughable because their are mountain of other reasons we can all point to. 

By the way, I have met Lance. And no I don't believe he would remember me. He visited Baghdad on a USO trip, our little bike club that used to race around Victory Base somehow finagled in a a lunchtime meet and greet with him. This was a couple weeks before the TDU, which was I think his last pro race. 7 or 8 of us BS'd with him for about 45 minutes about cyclocross bikes and the gear that we used to ride around what we called Baghdad-Roubaix. What was hilarious was that he went off on how Trek couldn't seem to make a decent 'cross bike.

Not really liking the guy anymore, I thought all week about asking him a small question to tweak him. So I asked him something about cobblestone stage of the Tour the past summer as you may recall he didn't have such a hot day on that stage. Well, sure enough I got the stink eye for a second and he muttered something about how that stage just made for good TV but was terrible for the riders. He said he was in no shape to race TDU and I don't know if it was the jet lag, or the Floyd induced stress, but he looked terrible.

Nonetheless, I did think it was cool that he spent that time with us. And I over the past few years I have softened on my dislike of him, mainly because I met the guy, and socipath or not, he was under no obligation to meet with us. I hope he can rehabilitate his image and use that to help some of the people who he crushed in the process of maintaining his illusion.


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## Bluenote

spade2you said:


> Buy low and sell high or did he make improvements?


Those details aren't public. But given that it was in a fancy magazine and he turned it around quick, I'm guessing buy high and sell higher.


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## spade2you

Local Hero said:


> Joseph?
> 
> Mary?


Jesus.


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## Bluenote

Local Hero said:


> Do you think he remembers it?
> 
> Here's the deal, and it's why I think the discussion of a man's art collection is inane and stupid: It's pretty obvious that Macur picked what she found to be the most creepy or strangest art to highlight. If she saw or heard of vanilla art, something everyone has in their house (such as a photo of the Eiffel Tower) she would not mention it. She would only mention those things which she could somehow make offensive. It was not just art. There is no doubt that she did this cherry picking with all of the facts in the man's life, picking out what she found worst or most offensive and spotlighting it.
> 
> For example, let's look at one of Macur's sentences: _Armstrong didn’t like to be alone, so Neal often met him for breakfast at the Upper Crust Cafe..._
> -Macur
> 
> Let's think about that for a second. I also enjoy eating with others. Many people enjoy the company of others for breakfast. From the outside this may look like a couple of friends regularly eating breakfast together. To Macur, this is a deeply revealing sign of insecurity. "Armstrong didn't like to be alone..." Her writing is dripping with these assumptions and insinuations.
> 
> Starting from a conclusion she was able to collect and assemble enough damning facts to create a nasty narrative.
> 
> This kind of thing doesn't just happen to Armstrong, it happens celebrities and politicians. Just imagine all the horrible things people could say about someone you don't like at the office. Or all of the rumors people in a small town repeat about one another. Or, if someone were to inclined to interview everyone you have ever met, imagine all of the things that could be twisted to paint a terrible picture of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You call it the least of the revelations, I call it the best of the character assassination.
> Joseph?
> 
> Mary?


Poor Armstrong is such a victim. Minus the doping, cheating, bullying, using his cancer charity as a sheild and total lack of remorse, he's just like the rest of us working stiffs. That big, bad author did a horrible hatchet job to make sweet old Lancie look bad. 

Armstrong looked creepy as sh!t on Oprah. And like a remorseless a hole in his SCA deposition. He did that to himself - no yellow journalism there. So how do you explain that guy away? 

Oh, wait, you can't. So let's keep pretending this is about Macur's taste in art / witch hunt against Armstrong.


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## Local Hero

I heard that Armstrong almost killed an entire highway full of innocents when he sent a text while driving.


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## Doctor Falsetti

It appears the death of the myth has been hard on some. Macur, just like all the others who told the truth, is the new target to smear.


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## Doctor Falsetti

Macur is just bitter hater who loves cancer


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## Big-foot

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Macur is just bitter hater who loves cancer


Really? Gosh, I've never seen her at any of the meetings.


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## Bluenote

Local Hero said:


> I heard that Armstrong almost killed an entire highway full of innocents when he sent a text while driving.


I heard everyone who posts on PO is a paid Armstrong shill. Its part of his plot to sow disunion and usher in the new order.

He also put a hit on this guy...

Bob Ross - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Bluenote

Big-foot said:


> Really? Gosh, I've never seen her at any of the meetings.


+1....


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## sir duke

Bluenote said:


> "Creepy" is relative.
> 
> The author of "Cycle of Lies" thought Armstrong's collection of Christological art was creepy. I didn't find it to be that creepy. Lots of "culture" can be interpreted as (or intentionally is) Christological. "The Old Man and the Sea," "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe," the ending of Harry Potter, etc...
> 
> But you are doing the Lawyer 'forest for the trees' thing. So called "creepy" art, was the least of the revelations in "Cycle of Lies."
> 
> So what did you think of how Lance treated his stepfather? Or what he did to JT Neal? Or how his lies to the Livestrong Foundation put it in a bad position and have threatened its mission?
> 
> Wait, lemme guess - you didn't read the book.
> 
> Well, carry on yammering...


Armstrong redeems himself very slightly by at least having an interest in art. Who cares if it's creepy, our money didn't pay for it. (SCA's more likely).


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## Local Hero

George W. Bush Debuts New Paintings Of Dogs, Friends, Ghost Of Iraqi Child That Follows Him Everywhere | Video


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## DrSmile

I just finished the book. In my opinion it is by FAR the most factually comprehensive US cycling doping account I have read. Although it follows Lance's career, it succeeds in telling the story of a vast web of fraud, conspiracy and complicity that was / is present in the entire cycling business and culture, including the overseeing organizations, the sponsors, the riders, the doctors, the trainers, the staff, the training methods and even reaching all the way to Washington. Lance was just sly enough to manipulate everyone brilliantly. The book brought up a lot of points I had forgotten about, and cast videos of cycling that I watched live on TV in a whole new light. I highly recommend reading it!

Some of my favorite quotes/parts:

"My experience as a pro cyclist in Europe has left me with a somewhat altered moral code, such that many of the things that bother normal people are invisible to me" - Joe Parkin (1980s US cyclist)

"Like mafia wives who enjoy the spoils of the business but never discuss their husbands' dirty work, the two women had never before even broached the subject of doping" (of Leah Vande Velde and Alisa Vaughters)

"If I personally was on the brink of death and went through a terrible situation and came out of that as an atheist I'm going to do everything in life that benefits me because I might not be here tomorrow. Treating people fairly or being decent or putting myself aside for other people - those basic moral values that most of us practice regardless of what religion we are - wouldn't matter." - Tygart about Lance's claims to not dope because of his cancer

"In 2004 alone, then, Landis figured that 60 bikes had gone missing. At maybe $3000 each, that would generate $180,000 in cash. He had an epiphany: So, that's how the team pays for its doping." (maybe you should think twice before buying a "team" bike)

"Part of (former UCI chief Hein) Verbruggen's financial portfolio was managed by the investment bank owned by Thomas Weisel, the same man who owned Armstrong's cyling team. The broker on the account was Jim Ochowicz, Armstrong's former team manager and close friend, and the president of USA Cycling's board of directors from 2002-2006"

"I've seen them both, and Floyd is way better. He's a way better athlete, bottom line. If there had been no doping in cycling, Landis would have won ten Tour de France titles." - Allan Lim

"Fabiani (a political spin doctor / lawyer) told Armstrong to stop talking to reporters until a countering narrative was in place... Armstrong would say the government should not waste taxpayer dollars on the investigation of a cyclist who'd supposedly doped in Europe a decade before" (compare to this letter from a truly spineless evil fat [email protected] who is still a congressman - thanks Wisconsin!) 

"The most successful people in the world, the true killers in the world, they weren't handed anything, they didn't grow up with anything, they had to [email protected]' scrape and fight for it" - Lance Armstrong


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## skitorski

Other than the original topic of this thread, the book, this discussion could almost pass for the Bikes Direct thread in Lounge

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/lounge/bikes-direct-259142.html

or the Roadkill Log

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/general-cycling-discussion/road-kill-log-306477.html


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## sir duke

> If I personally was on the brink of death and went through a terrible situation and came out of that as an atheist I'm going to do everything in life that benefits me because I might not be here tomorrow. Treating people fairly or being decent or putting myself aside for other people - those basic moral values that most of us practice regardless of what religion we are - wouldn't matter." - Tygart about Lance's claims to not dope because of his cancer


Some good quotes there, I do have problems with Tygart's worldview re: religion and morals; that being atheist = no morals. Complete BS. Makes me wonder if his pursuit of Armstrong was influenced by his religious beliefs. I certainly don't want to drag this into a PO style slanging match but Tygart comes across as someone who did the right thing for the wrong reasons. (I think USADA's actions were just and their penalties re. Big Tex justified.)


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## DrSmile

sir duke said:


> Some good quotes there, I do have problems with Tygart's worldview re: religion and morals; that being atheist = no morals. Complete BS. Makes me wonder if his pursuit of Armstrong was influenced by his religious beliefs. I certainly don't want to drag this into a PO style slanging match but Tygart comes across as someone who did the right thing for the wrong reasons. (I think USADA's actions were just and their penalties re. Big Tex justified.)


Interesting take. I didn't perceive it as being anti-atheist, and I'm a pretty militant atheist myself. I took it to mean that if you come as close to death as Lance did, you'd do whatever it takes to succeed in living life to the fullest, which I think is a good thing. I can see your viewpoint but if there's one thing I could respect Lance for, it would be that he didn't start praying to some imaginary deity when faced with almost certain death. I suppose that may just be an indication of the size of his ego, but it does show more spine than I think most people would have.


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## Local Hero

sir duke said:


> Some good quotes there, I do have problems with Tygart's worldview re: religion and morals; that being atheist = no morals. Complete BS. Makes me wonder if his pursuit of Armstrong was influenced by his religious beliefs. I certainly don't want to drag this into a PO style slanging match but Tygart comes across as someone who did the right thing for the wrong reasons. (I think USADA's actions were just and their penalties re. Big Tex justified.)


I agree. Why would a prosecutor who is sworn to uphold the constitution bring up religion? It smacks the first amendment in the face.


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## Local Hero

Can anyone explain why God miraculously saved atheist Armstrong from cancer?


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## love4himies

Local Hero said:


> Can anyone explain why God miraculously saved atheist Armstrong from cancer?


So bike forums could have some heated threads to keep us entertained.


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## Tig

love4himies said:


> So bike forums could have some heated threads to keep us entertained.


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## sir duke

DrSmile said:


> Interesting take. I didn't perceive it as being anti-atheist, and I'm a pretty militant atheist myself. I took it to mean that if you come as close to death as Lance did, you'd do whatever it takes to succeed in living life to the fullest, which I think is a good thing. I can see your viewpoint but if there's one thing I could respect Lance for, it would be that he didn't start praying to some imaginary deity when faced with almost certain death. I suppose that may just be an indication of the size of his ego, but it does show more spine than I think most people would have.


I was interpreting "_those basic moral values that most of us practice regardless of what religion we are - wouldn't matter._" as Tygart setting up a worldview/morality predicated on _some_ involvement with religion. Since he states that Armstrong is an atheist he seems to be implying that atheism runs counter to '_basic moral values_'. Unless he's making the mistake of classifying atheism as a 'religion'. Without the reference to atheism I think Tygart has a point.


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## Mckdaddy

I'm looking for a book on this era, Wheelmen or a Cycle of Lies or others.

I read Tyler Hamilton's book last fall, enjoyed it.


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## The Tedinator

So, Emma's book is out, with _the forward by Lance Armstrong_! Says her and Lance are friends now, and also says she is very ambivalent about David Walsh. Hope none of the "Lance is the Devil" crowd see that. They could have a stroke or something.

Emma O?Reilly: ?My relationship with Lance Armstrong was and still is a human one? | Sport | The Guardian


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## The Tedinator

Armstrong?s whistleblower reveals all


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## RRRoubaix

The Tedinator said:


> So, Emma's book is out, with _the forward by Lance Armstrong_! Says her and Lance are friends now, and also says she is very ambivalent about David Walsh. Hope none of the "Lance is the Devil" crowd see that. They could have a stroke or something.
> 
> Emma O?Reilly: ?My relationship with Lance Armstrong was and still is a human one? | Sport | The Guardian


"Ambivalent" at best, perhaps.
Interesting find, Tedinator- thanks!


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## SystemShock

Local Hero said:


> I heard that Armstrong almost killed an entire highway full of innocents when he sent a text while driving.


That does sound like him.

Has he arranged an awkward, creepy Oprah interview to discuss it yet?


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## SystemShock

Doctor Falsetti said:


> It appears the death of the myth has been hard on some. Macur, just like all the others who told the truth, is the new target to smear.


Yup. And those who whine that Armstrong got character assassinated are conveniently forgetting that Armstrong already walked up to his own character, put a gun to its head, and pulled the trigger.

Can't assassinate what's already dead.


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## spade2you

SystemShock said:


> Can't assassinate what's already dead.


In a world where you can't assassinate what's already dead....one man...one gigantic gun...some hot chicks...Rutger Haur has other plans.










This summer's 4th biggest blockbuster goes directly to VHS.


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## SystemShock

spade2you said:


> In a world where you can't assassinate what's already did....one man...one gigantic gun...some hot chicks...Rutger Haur has other plans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This summer's 4th biggest blockbuster goes directly to VHS.




...


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## mulkdog45

I just finished this book and really enjoyed it. I checked it out on a Saturday and finished on Tuesday. I found it fascinating, but I am pretty naive about such things. Really caught off guard about the emotional state of Landis....good read for those who are just intrigued about the unbelievable potential of human conditions and what can be inflicted on others, just for the sake winning...


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## n2deep

Local Hero said:


> On a scale of 1-10, how good is the book at delivering the coup de grâce of Armstrong's character assassination?


Thats funny,, First we need to resurrect it, patch it and then if possible shoot it again? 

It's a wonderful sport or should I say business, any more I'm not sure what it has become. Too much pressure to be something your not. Look at baseball.. As long as they were hitting the long balls and drawing the crowds, they could take all the stuff they wanted and the officials turned a blind eye. IMHO, The cycling officials, the sponsors and team management were culpable in this deception.


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## wgscott

Does the author wax hematopoietically?


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## atpjunkie

sir duke said:


> Some good quotes there, I do have problems with Tygart's worldview re: religion and morals; that being atheist = no morals. Complete BS. Makes me wonder if his pursuit of Armstrong was influenced by his religious beliefs. I certainly don't want to drag this into a PO style slanging match but Tygart comes across as someone who did the right thing for the wrong reasons. (I think USADA's actions were just and their penalties re. Big Tex justified.)


I see it just the opposite

religious people aren't moral

their behavior is motivated by either wanting to please some deity or to avoid same deity's wrath. Either way it is self serving, thus NOT moral


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## sir duke

atpjunkie said:


> I see it just the opposite
> 
> religious people aren't moral
> 
> their behavior is motivated by either wanting to please some deity or to avoid same deity's wrath. Either way it is self serving, thus NOT moral



Couldn't agree more. Eternal life? Just about the most primally selfish motivation we have.
If God was perfect, what need would he have for a filthy little human emotion like 'wrath'?

That's the problem I have with Tygart's assumption, he's just plain wrong.

Edit: I'm not convinced that a self-serving motivation automatically precludes morality (however one wishes to define that). File under 'devil is in the details'. I consider myself an atheist but I wouldn't say that fact alone makes me less immoral than a believer. I just don't feel I have to justify my good deeds. I'm not looking for brownie points. 

I wonder how many dopers are believers?


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## BacDoc

sir duke said:


> If God was perfect, what need would he have for a filthy little human emotion like 'wrath'?


Aw come on man! Without wrath ya can't smite and smite is one of the perks of the job. Can't blame him for that.


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## sir duke

BacDoc said:


> Aw come on man! Without wrath ya can't smite and smite is one of the perks of the job. Can't blame him for that.



Sorry, the moralist in me got the upper hand. How about smiting in cold blood? Wrath takes up too much of my energy. 

I'm all for vengeance, though.....


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## spade2you

sir duke said:


> I'm all for vengeance, though.....


Really? Would have never guessed.


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## sir duke

spade2you said:


> Really? Would have never guessed.


Gonna thank me for the assist?


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## Local Hero

sir duke said:


> Gonna thank me for the assist?


thank god


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## Bluenote

Local Hero said:


> thank god


Are wrath and smiting considered doping? I mean, it takes some serious Holy Juice, but juice is still juice, right?


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## sir duke

Local Hero said:


> thank god


I'm a 'non-subscriber'...


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## Karlyn

I haven't read any books about LA, but might download that book.

Interesting news article that just came out. It's saying that LA may be catching a break due to an "accidental" Leak of sensitive documents by the DOJ. 

DOJ, Armstrong lawyers quarrel over federal error - VeloNews.com


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## den bakker

Karlyn said:


> I haven't read any books about LA, but might download that book.
> 
> Interesting news article that just came out. It's saying that LA may be catching a break due to an "accidental" Leak of sensitive documents by the DOJ.
> 
> DOJ, Armstrong lawyers quarrel over federal error - VeloNews.com


"You need to take responsibility for your own error,"
I LOLed. of the irony. Well, lawyers, what do you expect.


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## Local Hero

sir duke said:


> I'm a 'non-subscriber'...


God is going to be so pissed when She finds out that you're an infidel. I'll probably get smote too for my irreverence and general lack of belief in anything magic.


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## sir duke

Local Hero said:


> God is going to be so pissed when She finds out that you're an infidel. I'll probably get smote too for my irreverence and general lack of belief in anything magic.


I'll talk Her round...mumble a few words about 'forgiveness' and promise something ..er...vague. I'm sure She hears it every day..

Oh yeah, and I'm sorry you can't believe.


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## Local Hero

sir duke said:


> I'll talk Her round...mumble a few words about 'forgiveness' and promise something ..er...vague. I'm sure She hears it every day..
> 
> Oh yeah, and I'm sorry you can't believe.


Feeling is mutual. _I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles._


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## DrSmile

Appropriate thread title for the last few posts


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## sir duke

Local Hero said:


> Feeling is mutual. _I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you can't dream big and I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles._


Where money is involved there are never any 'miracles'. Cycling sure as sh!t ain't any different. (This for the benefit of the deluded few around here who still cling to the 'fairy dust' approach to winning in sports). 

Astana's pronouncement is clearly intended for the 'fairy dust' tendency.


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## SystemShock




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## Horze

ruckus said:


> Good. She is a terrible human being. Obsessed with bringing down others. Her obsession is scary. She is the most despicable person in that whole debacle. Her hatred and malice is despicable.


Seems like your typical girl next door.


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