# baker vs. meyerson at nats



## karl_27376 (Apr 25, 2005)

so, the cyclingnews.com and velonews.com reports don't metion anything about the tussle between jonathon baker and adam meyerson.

baker went down in a big 180 corner on the first lap (the one just after the turn around the tree). meyerson was right behind him, and ran into baker and went down too. they got up and were tugging at their bikes - there was a pedal tangled in spokes - and exchanging some choice words. baker finally got free, and as they were starting to remount, baker throws a big right roundhouse at meyerson, and it looked like it landed square on the left side of meyerson's face. meyerson said something about baker getting suspended, and they both rode off.

i can't say for sure that baker made contact because i was directly behind him, but it sure looked like he landed the punch.


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## TedH (Jan 1, 1970)

He was listed as "DNP" on CN.com, so maybe Baker got bounced pending review. Not sure what DNP means (did not place?), but a guy from Indiana also got DNP.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Everything I've read about him makes it seem Baker is a pretty intense dude. But throwing a punch, _bad_ idea.


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## celeste55 (Aug 15, 2007)

I was right there. It was epic. THE best part was when he got back on his bike, his chain was off, and he was just spinning there. Then the next lap, me and some friends heckled him when he rode by the same corner, and he ate **** again. EPIC.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Same Baker and AMH in this necylocross thread from last year?

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/necyclocross/message/4473

If so, weird.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

I noticed that Baker was way. way behind when they went through the runup at the first lap. Myerson battled gamely throughout the race - I seem to recall a mark on his face. Baker seemed to vanish. Either got pulled or just gave up.


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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

The punch was definitely an overreaction and way out of line, but Myerson did give Baker a pretty good push right before as they were yanking on their bikes (at least it looked like it from where I was standing).


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Punching is usually an automatic suspension. Could be anything from 6 weeks to a year.

This could ruin Baker's European trip and shot at competing at World's. Does Myerson need to complain? Somehow I don't think it's the first time he's been punched. I'd hate to see Baker's trip ruined but punching somebody, shove or no shove, is way out of line and all cycling associations are very intolerant of this.

Other points of note at the race: apparently there was some sort of a scuffle between some Page supporters and one of the bare-chested guys.

Marko Lalonde sprinted for 10th place and wasn't able to brake in time before ploughing into a bunch of spectators and knocking over a middle-aged lady. Neither were injured but I felt that the organisers should have done a better job of making sure that the group around Trebon were located a safer distance from the line.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

carlosflanders said:


> Somehow I don't think it's the first time he's been punched.


Why? He's the sweetest guy. But yeah: http://www.kenpapai.com/cycling/rbr/adamsStitches.html


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## tjanson (Nov 11, 2006)

I saw some of the Page supporter vs. stupid drunk dude in suspenders near the parking field.
The guy was heckling stupid stuff during the Page interview. I was 8 feet away from Page when it happened, and saw him pause, then ignore the heckles and continue with the interview. Gosh it pissed me off so much. I yelled a few "yeah JP"s to try to counter the negativity. The guy was yelling stuff about how Page never performs at nationals and always has excuses or something like that. Then I saw the scuffle in the parking lot.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

I wasn't there this year...but I understand the drunk that got in the scuffle is the same guy who got in one last year( I watched it happen ...and he got what he deserved).

As far as people being run into after the finish....at what point do people think it's a brilliant idea to walk onto a race course, and usually with their backs to the oncoming racers????
You see it at bike races all the time...and I've seen it at motorcycle and car races ,too.And it always comes down to,"the promoter should have stopped me". Pure proof that evolution has stopped working.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

the mayor said:


> As far as people being run into after the finish....at what point do people think it's a brilliant idea to walk onto a race course, and usually with their backs to the oncoming racers????
> You see it at bike races all the time...and I've seen it at motorcycle and car races ,too.And it always comes down to,"the promoter should have stopped me". Pure proof that evolution has stopped working.


http://winsorwhitephotos.smugmug.com/gallery/6498936_hsoWa#412883170_UdLeL-XL-LB


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> http://winsorwhitephotos.smugmug.com/gallery/6498936_hsoWa#412883170_UdLeL-XL-LB


I know you're a big fan of terseness in posting, but that picture looks to me like people running through a course crossing behind a racer. The only reason I can tell it's not a course crossing is because they're in a sand pit. Nevertheless, they're on the course *behind * the only visible racer, so you'll have to elaborate on how this is a clear sign of the apocalypse.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Kids don't count.
You can always make more....which dumb people seem to be very good at.
Sometimes I feel like I'm sitting in Darwin's waiting room.....


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Its three small children scrambling in at least two different directions on course in the middle of a race. If that doesn't seem like a problem to you, far be it from me to impose my opinion on the matter.
> 
> Looks like a spot that could be trouble though:
> 
> http://winsorwhitephotos.smugmug.com/gallery/6498936_hsoWa#412868155_4B27U-XL-LB


I'm secretly excited by the idea of striking a misbehaving child while racing my bike, so no, it doesn't seem like a problem to me -- rather, an opportunity.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Its three small children scrambling in at least two different directions on course in the middle of a race. If that doesn't seem like a problem to you, far be it from me to impose my opinion on the matter.

Looks like a spot that could be trouble though:

http://winsorwhitephotos.smugmug.com/gallery/6498936_hsoWa#412868155_4B27U-XL-LB


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

the mayor said:


> As far as people being run into after the finish....at what point do people think it's a brilliant idea to walk onto a race course, and usually with their backs to the oncoming racers????
> You see it at bike races all the time...and I've seen it at motorcycle and car races ,too.And it always comes down to,"the promoter should have stopped me". Pure proof that evolution has stopped working.


fwiw, a large crowd congegated around Trebon about 30 yards after the finish line. Photographers, soigneurs, relatives, journalists etc. This is what Lalonde was trying to avoid. Racers are entitled to sprint for a place and shouldn't have to deal with this. I've marshalled at finish lines at other events and we always were told to usher racers on to a safer place, not allow folks on the course and get them off asap if they came on. They were there for quite a while, plenty of opportunity to at least "try" to move them on.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

carlosflanders said:


> fwiw, a large crowd congegated around Trebon about 30 yards after the finish line. Photographers, soigneurs, relatives, journalists etc. This is what Lalonde was trying to avoid. Racers are entitled to sprint for a place and shouldn't have to deal with this. I've marshalled at finish lines at other events and we always were told to usher racers on to a safer place, not allow folks on the course and get them off asap if they came on. They were there for quite a while, plenty of opportunity to at least "try" to move them on.


It is understandable for friends and family and press to be excited and forgetful in the moment. And yes it is the job of course marshals to (politely, cheerfully) herd people away from the finish line. There are ways of doing this without spoiling the moment.

The photo PBB posted is meaningless. If the photo was the kids in front of a racer, it would mean something.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

pretender said:


> The photo PBB posted is meaningless. If the photo was the kids in front of a racer, it would mean something.


Only if you think there is an appropriate time for three small children, beyond the reach of their guardian, to be on a race course at a large event, especially in a technical section where they could stumble and be delayed in getting out of the way or distract someone and cause a crash.

Note also that there is a safer (grass) crossing area just up the course (perhaps where the errant kid is headed).

You can't see far enough down the course in the angle of the photo to make a *meaningful* conclusion about how close other racers might be. Besides, why do they appear to be in such a hurry and why they chose pass behind that racer so closely if the coast was going to be clear 2 seconds later?


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Only if you think there is an appropriate time for three small children, beyond the reach of their guardian, to be on a race course at a large event, especially in a technical section where they could stumble and be delayed in getting out of the way or distract someone and cause a crash.
> 
> Note also that there is a safer (grass) crossing area just up the course (perhaps where the errant kid is headed).
> 
> You can't see far enough down the course in the angle of the photo to make a *meaningful* conclusion about how close other racers might be. Besides, why do they appear to be in such a hurry and why they chose pass behind that racer so closely if the coast was going to be clear 2 seconds later?


I am right and you are wrong. Unless you have a photo of the kids directly interfering with the race. Oh, that's right, you don't.


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## tomk96 (Sep 24, 2007)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Besides, why do they appear to be in such a hurry and why they chose pass behind that racer so closely if the coast was going to be clear 2 seconds later?


if i need to cut across a course, i rush whether somebody is coming or not. maybe daddy is calling them to hurry up and run across.

i understand your point, but the pic doesn't really support anything.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Found this

http://tinyurl.com/56o4m2

The bearded guy looks like the same guy who was shirtless earlier on

dunno exactly what's going on, but someone is trying to ruin a dozen Richard Sachs bikes


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

tomk96 said:


> if i need to cut across a course, i rush whether somebody is coming or not. maybe daddy is calling them to hurry up and run across.
> 
> i understand your point, but the pic doesn't really support anything.


And perhaps the woman with them scolded them for not staying close.

I don't know and neither do any of the experts who have chimed in to argue that the picture doesn't prove what nobody said it proved in the first place. Just an example of spectators on course when and where it would be prudent to stay behind the tape.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

So...uhmm....how about that Baker vs Meyerson incident?!?!


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

carlosflanders said:


> Found this
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/56o4m2


Is there vid of that? I read that Page's wife stuck one of them in a head lock.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

the mayor said:


> So...uhmm....how about that Baker vs Meyerson incident?!?!


Exactly. I can't believe that there isn't video on YouTube by now! I had to laugh at *carlosflanders*'s comment about it not being the first time someone took a swing at AMH. He seems to be a bit of a talker and a magnet for drama -- at least judging by Transitions and his blog.

It appears that he and Baker might be acquaintances and maybe this was just an unfortunate incidence of taking a local rivalry too far under the spotllight of Nationals.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Despite how he comes across in Transitions,Adam is really a nice guy. He has done a lot for the sport.

I was there the day he got popped in CT. A weird one.He's still racing...the other guy is gone.

I was there when Baker went down in RI last year. It was just hard racing with unfortunate results.

Don't know what happened in KC.....but it was Natz...and things are always a little crazy no matter where you are in the field.

It's over now...move along..there's nothing to see.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Oh, I'm sure he is a decent guy and he certainly goes above and beyond for the sport. But he clearly takes his racing seriously and isn't the timid type. I could see things getting contentious, only to be squashed a couple minutes later.

Its unfortunate that the situation occurred during Nats. I wouldn't be surprised if AMH put in a word for Baker with the officials so it didn't escalate further (i.e. suspension). Obviously that kind of thing is never cool, but hopefully all concerned will be able to just move on.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Oh, I'm sure he is a decent guy and he certainly goes above and beyond for the sport. But he clearly takes his racing seriously and isn't the timid type.


A good read on its own and for some background on Adam: http://cycle-smart.com/blog/2008/12/15/an-open-letter-to-my-new-and-returning-teammates/

Here's his race face: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dnet/2965655017/


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## argylesocks (Aug 2, 2004)

carlosflanders said:


> This could ruin Baker's European trip and shot at competing at World's. Does Myerson need to complain? Somehow I don't think it's the first time he's been punched. I'd hate to see Baker's trip ruined but punching somebody, shove or no shove, is way out of line and all cycling associations are very intolerant of this.


It's too bad it happened, but i certainly feel no pity for Jon. Act stupid, suffer the consequences of your actions.


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## lousylegs (Jul 15, 2005)

yeah, but I want to know the story of the guy falling on the Sachs team bikes? WTF happend there, and what was the damage to people and machines?


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

lousylegs said:


> yeah, but I want to know the story of the guy falling on the Sachs team bikes? WTF happend there, and what was the damage to people and machines?


Its all on Jonathan Page's Blog


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## iamandy (Jun 20, 2003)

Susan Walker said:


> A good read on its own and for some background on Adam: http://cycle-smart.com/blog/2008/12/15/an-open-letter-to-my-new-and-returning-teammates/


Talk about hitting the nail on the head. Perfect.


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

a less even keel version of the drunk's busting Richard Sach's bikes is over here (Language warning fwiw)

word is at least one frame was broken...

edited to fix with Tiny URL


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

haha, your link got censored because jerry has a potty mouth


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## gewilli (Dec 18, 2006)

oh that's funny

replace the **** with some f word and you'll get there...

damn censored forums... crazy...

(fixed the above link.... )


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

gewilli said:


> damn censored forums... crazy...


It's for your own good.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

More Jackassery before the fight: Down toward the bottom

http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2008/12/trebon-compton.html


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Oh, I'm sure he is a decent guy and he certainly goes above and beyond for the sport. But he clearly takes his racing seriously and isn't the timid type. I could see things getting contentious, only to be squashed a couple minutes later.
> 
> Its unfortunate that the situation occurred during Nats. I wouldn't be surprised if AMH put in a word for Baker with the officials so it didn't escalate further (i.e. suspension). Obviously that kind of thing is never cool, but hopefully all concerned will be able to just move on.



Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have been tempted to take a swing at him at on e time or other. He admits in Transitions that he has a "reputation". But once he gets off the course he leaves the drama on the course. I get the impression that he's not a vindictive person.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

I guess the two wahoo's who got in a fight with Page's crew are proud of it, glad to see Page write them off

http://timeinthesaddle.blogspot.com/2008/12/shake-your-booty.html


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## CouchingTiger (Mar 5, 2007)

Littletinytrainingwheels said:


> I guess the two wahoo's who got in a fight with Page's crew are proud of it, glad to see Page write them off
> 
> http://timeinthesaddle.blogspot.com/2008/12/shake-your-booty.html


Wow, d!psh!t hillbilly's and bikes, who'd have though the two would meet. It takes a special kind of person to be proud of something really stupid that they've done. Fortunately they appear to be successfully breeding and spreading those groovy genes. 

Anyone heard what the damage was to Richie's team rigs? I hope it wasn't bad.

Mike


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

CouchingTiger said:


> d!psh!t hillbilly's


Irony.


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## myette10 (Jul 20, 2003)

pretender said:


> Irony.


elaborate please....


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

...calling someone stupid while bastardizing the apostrophe.


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## velociped jones (Mar 21, 2005)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> http://winsorwhitephotos.smugmug.com/gallery/6498936_hsoWa#412883170_UdLeL-XL-LB


 it depends on how the course has to be set up. the lady and kids maybe had to cross the course to get to somewhere. the lady seems to have her eyes on the kids. the kids seem to have pretty good running form. perhaps, it's not their first race. the girl in the green sweater looks like she's unrelated to the lady and the other two kids. and laura constantini was at the back anyways so there was probably at gap. we can't be sure how big a gap as they don't have times posted for the race.


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## CouchingTiger (Mar 5, 2007)

Correct. I did butcher the punctuation though I added the exclamation marks to avoid the potty mouth censor. Somehow I think that the point was lost.

It's really sad to see one of the biggest supporters of the sport as well as one of the most respected craftsmen have to pay for the stupidity of others. Yes, shouting obscenities and then starting a fight that ultimately leads to property damage is stupid as far as I'm concerned.

Also, something about seeing some guy in his camo-jammies posing proudly with a dead animal just irritates me. Shooting wolves, coyotes, bears or any other animal that you are not planning to eat or isn't trying to eat you is, in my opinion, stupid. I used to "hunt" too but at some point along the way I realized that killing for the sake of killing is wrong and the only reason anyone does it is because it makes them feel big and powerful. You want to feel big and powerful, strip down, slather yourself in wolf bait and go hunt that wolf without the .308. Anyone remember the old South Park episode where Ned and Jimbo take the kids hunting?

Now you've done it, you made me reveal my secret tree-hugging hippy side. If my ******* hillbilly family finds out I won't be invited for Christmas and I was so looking forward to the corn fed, maple cured raccoon with crab apple glaze 

Mike


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

How come you never serve raccoon when I'm there?
Don't Bogart that '****!


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

I wonder what tread pattern the hillbillies had on their boots?


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

CouchingTiger said:


> Shooting wolves, coyotes, bears or any other animal that you are not planning to eat or isn't trying to eat you is, in my opinion, stupid.


+1 atmo


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## CouchingTiger (Mar 5, 2007)

the mayor said:


> How come you never serve raccoon when I'm there?
> Don't Bogart that '****!


We actually had raccoon sausage and muskrat chops along with a fresh skunk cabbage and cowslip salad after the BAD-A$$ ride. Too bad you augured your head into the ground two miles from the end of the 70 mile MTB ride and had to get evacuated from the woods 

Mike


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Myerson gives his side of the story:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/cross.php?id=news/2008/dec08/dec18crossnews


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## drumbum (Oct 4, 2006)

_"All three landed on my 14 bicycles which were ready to be loaded for New England," Richard Sachs told Cyclingnews._

Bwahahahah!


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

drumbum said:


> _"All three landed on my 14 bicycles which were ready to be loaded for New England," Richard Sachs told Cyclingnews._
> 
> Bwahahahah!


If you think that is funny, you're an arsehole.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

The two pugilists think its funny

http://timeinthesaddle.blogspot.com/2008/12/shake-your-booty.html


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## drumbum (Oct 4, 2006)

Susan Walker said:


> If you think that is funny, you're an arsehole.


No, my maniacal laugh was directed at the awesomeness of him being able to say "my 14 bicycles"; I love e-ritchie and would never wish harm on such beautiful machines.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Is it the same Cale McAninch who is molding young minds at Pershing Middle School?


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

pretender said:


> Is it the same Cale McAninch who is molding young minds at Pershing Middle School?


I'm pretty sure that I saw that in his blogger profile before it became private, yeah.

That post, and the accompanying "discussion," is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on the internet, on both sides.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

drumbum said:


> No, my maniacal laugh was directed at the awesomeness of him being able to say "my 14 bicycles"; I love e-ritchie and would never wish harm on such beautiful machines.


Sorry.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

colinr said:


> I'm pretty sure that I saw that in his blogger profile before it became private, yeah.
> 
> That post, and the accompanying "discussion," is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on the internet, on both sides.


Gotta love the "I'm embarrassed but I've moved on with my life" nonpology.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

pretender said:


> Gotta love the "I'm embarrassed but I've moved on with my life" nonpology.


And all his posturing in the comments about not caring about "what cx dorks think"... and then making the blog private.


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## JRox (Oct 5, 2004)

Has the video Page talked about surfaced yet? 

Sad to say I am paying this more attention than that Trebon fella won the race.


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

Littletinytrainingwheels said:


> The two pugilists think its funny
> 
> http://timeinthesaddle.blogspot.com/2008/12/shake-your-booty.html


hmm... can't view the blog anymore unless you're "invited".


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

CouchingTiger said:


> We actually had raccoon sausage and muskrat chops along with a fresh skunk cabbage and cowslip salad after the BAD-A$$ ride. Too bad you augured your head into the ground two miles from the end of the 70 mile MTB ride and had to get evacuated from the woods
> 
> Mike


Crap! I always miss the good stuff when I have a concussion and broken back!


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

colinr said:


> And all his posturing in the comments about not caring about "what cx dorks think"... and then making the blog private.


They also were saying how the comments didn't bother them & they weren't going to loose sleep over it. Guess it did & they are. I like their team statement about how "they project a positive, friendly, and inviting image to the community" job well done on that one. I bet their sponsor is having a cow.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Velonews of the Page incident. 

Sounds like the Boston Mountain Cycles folks should be real proud of their guy. . .

http://www.velonews.com/article/86089/scuffle-at-kansas-city-cyclocross-nationals


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> Velonews of the Page incident.
> 
> Sounds like the Boston Mountain Cycles folks should be real proud of their guy. . .
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/article/86089/scuffle-at-kansas-city-cyclocross-nationals


They ride for St. John's Cycling Team which coincidentally has shut down their website too.


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## cyclocross808 (Dec 5, 2005)

karl_27376 said:


> so, the cyclingnews.com and velonews.com reports don't metion anything about the tussle between jonathon baker and adam meyerson.


VN and CN didn't report on it in their race coverage, but even though it's old news now, Cyclocross Magazine's live coverage during the race on sunday did mention it, courtesy of reader "lunacycles" (although she thought myerson took baker down). Live coverage archive here. Brief report on the scuffle here


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

cyclocross808 said:


> VN and CN didn't report on it in their race coverage, but even though it's old news now, Cyclocross Magazine's live coverage during the race on sunday did mention it, courtesy of reader "lunacycles" (although she thought myerson took baker down). Live coverage archive here. Brief report on the scuffle here


And that was some GOOD footage! I was able to follow several of the races. Thanks!

What are the odds that Baker will get suspended? Did the new blonde hair bring a change in attitude? Is he now a member of the bad boy club? Maybe he is just gearing up for the full contact style of racing typical of Belgium. 

Looks like he has a new bike sponsor (BLUE), or is on the cusp of it. What a great way to start off a new relationship w/ a new sponsor. THAT guy is AWESOME... I want him on MY brand of bike. 

Baker blog


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

Littletinytrainingwheels said:


> They ride for St. John's Cycling Team which coincidentally has shut down their website too.



St Johns site appears to be back up, and Cale's email is on there. I plan on shooting him and all his sponsors an email thanking him for his outstanding behaviour....
clown.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

Littletinytrainingwheels said:


> They also were saying how the comments didn't bother them & they weren't going to loose sleep over it. Guess it did & they are. I like their team statement about how "they project a positive, friendly, and inviting image to the community" job well done on that one. I bet their sponsor is having a cow.


From their site:

_"... Check Cale out sporting the new St Johns Powerful Medicine Kit. Cale has represented the team very well in his short cross season. 
Great job Cale!! ..."_

and

*Cale McAninch 
"C-Mac"
[email protected]

Birthday
1973

Hometown
Springfield, MO

Category
1

Profession
Teacher

Hobbies
Archery Hunting, Home Improvements, Sportscenter
*


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## iktome (Aug 29, 2003)

A guy gets drunk and says some stupid things, and you guys all act like he's the anti-christ. No one intended to damage the bikes, so while it's really unfortunate that it happened, it's not a reason to vilify anyone. And there's probably a bit of blame on both sides (not Sachs, obviously. he's just an unfortunate victim). 

Whatever happened, and however stupid the guy is, there's certainly no need to try to mess up his life. That's just stupid and petty, particularly when it's from a bunch of idiots on the internet that weren't even there. If you start in on that sh_t, how are you any better? It starts to sound kind of high school b_tchy to me.

I don't know any of the people involved, although some friends of mine are good friends with the Planet Bike folks, so my tendencies are to select that "side" over the other. So I'm not trying to defend anyone; I just find it somewhat pathetic to think it's appropriate to start emailing the guy or his sponsors or associates to b_itch about something that you didn't witness and which doesn't really affect you in any real fashion.

On that point, fortunately or unfortunately, I was standing 10 yards away and didn't hear or see any of this go down. I guess I was too cold.


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## CDB (Oct 20, 2005)

iktome said:


> A guy gets drunk and says some stupid things, and you guys all act like he's the anti-christ. No one intended to damage the bikes, so while it's really unfortunate that it happened, it's not a reason to vilify anyone. And there's probably a bit of blame on both sides (not Sachs, obviously. he's just an unfortunate victim).
> 
> Whatever happened, and however stupid the guy is, there's certainly no need to try to mess up his life. That's just stupid and petty, particularly when it's from a bunch of idiots on the internet that weren't even there. If you start in on that sh_t, how are you any better? It starts to sound kind of high school b_tchy to me.
> 
> ...


I wonder if their team sponsor agrees? I definitely want to know more about the "powerful medicine". I doubt Alcohol is what St. John's had in mind.

I agree, it's a little childish to be bad mouthing here. Damage has already been done and what will come of it doesn't really have anything to do w/ internettin' dorks. That is, unless the sponsor isn't aware of what actually went on yet. If there is no ramification for acting like a drunken jackass, disprespecting hard working elite athletes, why not continue acting like a drunken jackass, or even bringing along friends and boosting the drunken jackass numbers. Personally, I'd prefer those spectators to stay at home, or go watch nascar.

The guy could always make an appearance on the ol' CX forum and defend his actions or ask for forgiveness, maybe even offer a public apology. Seems like the keyboard typin' nerds are pretty forgiving when folks admit their mistakes and take responsibility. Especially when ample smilies are used.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Elite bike racers eff up and do stupid things occasionally just like everyone else. You could be screwing with someone's livelihood if you start whining to sponsors. How about next time you act like an idiot, we call your boss & tattle? That'd be pretty dumb. 

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just people that are getting all high & mighty.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Virtual pillory = good and fun.

Sending e-mails = stupid and vindictive.


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm more annoyed that a teacher would do this than a bike racer.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

fuzz-tone said:


> I'm more annoyed that a teacher would do this than a bike racer.


A Teacher who has a history of this kind of thing. Before he shut his blog it down I read on one of the links that his "buddies" lovingly call him the East Coast Brawler. I'd freak if my kids had a teacher like that.


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## d2p (Jul 29, 2006)

so LTTW, is this some kind of personal thing? I mean 8 of your 9 posts are concerning this individual and this incident.


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## CouchingTiger (Mar 5, 2007)

iktome said:


> A guy gets drunk and says some stupid things, and you guys all act like he's the anti-christ. No one intended to damage the bikes, so while it's really unfortunate that it happened, it's not a reason to vilify anyone. And there's probably a bit of blame on both sides (not Sachs, obviously. he's just an unfortunate victim).
> 
> Whatever happened, and however stupid the guy is, there's certainly no need to try to mess up his life. That's just stupid and petty, particularly when it's from a bunch of idiots on the internet that weren't even there. If you start in on that sh_t, how are you any better? It starts to sound kind of high school b_tchy to me.
> 
> ...


IMHO, There is a lot of truth here. None of us know exactly what happened and it isn't fair to make assumptions based on hearsay (which I did as well). I had friends who saw it as well, but couldn't tell exactly what happened to initiate. 

e-RICHIE is the victim. Having to sue to fix a problem that he now has to deal with, but which others caused is just crazy. I suspect that if the parties involved just admitted their mistakes and paid the consequences (the damages to the RS team bikes) this all would have gone away.

Mike


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

CouchingTiger said:


> IMHO, There is a lot of truth here. None of us know exactly what happened and it isn't fair to make assumptions based on hearsay (which I did as well). I had friends who saw it as well, but couldn't tell exactly what happened to initiate.
> 
> e-RICHIE is the victim. Having to sue to fix a problem that he now has to deal with, but which others caused is just crazy. I suspect that if the parties involved just admitted their mistakes and paid the consequences (the damages to the RS team bikes) this all would have gone away.
> 
> Mike


You're correct (of course), but it should be noted that a lot of what caused the e-frenzy was his utter lack of repentance and continued online posturing. Had he showed any maturity about the situation whatsoever, the whole "emailing him is out of line" discussion would never have come up.

If nothing else I suspect he has learned a lesson about picking a fight with the anonymous hate machine that is the internet.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

d2p said:


> so LTTW, is this some kind of personal thing? I mean 8 of your 9 posts are concerning this individual and this incident.


No just shocked. Have no idea who he is, For that matter only time I've ever been to MO is on a layover @ STL airport. Just a big JP/Sachs fan. Its the off season, too much time on my hands.


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## FTM (Feb 4, 2005)

[QUOTE='VeloNews"]McAninch said he was willing to pay for his share of the damages. "I'm not accepting all the blame for this, but I was a third of it,"[/QUOTE]
The article


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

FTM said:


> The article


Man, that guy is an A-hole.

I like how VeloNews makes it a point to call him an "ameteur".


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

colinr said:


> If nothing else I suspect he has learned a lesson about picking a fight with the anonymous hate machine that is the internet.


From CNN
In a recent article for TIME magazine, web guru Jaron Lanier wrote, "Collectives tend to be mean, to designate official enemies, to be violent, and to discourage creative, rigorous thought... We might be genetically wired to be vulnerable to the lure of the mob."

Article

After reading that I realized I'm a member of the Mob, crap what was I thinking.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

I have not personally sent any emails, but to CDB point sponsors don't only want to know when people are doing great things for their brand, but also when they are acting like jerks.. Getting loaded and getting into dust ups at ANY event is idiotic. the argument that we all do dumb things just does not work for me, especially when it is as deliberate as his was. As far as not seeing the event that is a very fair point. Having said that, the velonews article says that the filmmaker will be posting the event on his site. then everyone can see it and make their judgements. 
I get tired of people acting like dumbasses and then saying I did not know what the consequences would be? That is the lowest common denominator argument and it just does not play. 
I guess his comment that he does not care what dumb cross racers think only applies if it does not get back to his sponosrs, then he seems to care....

I would add that this happened in the context of a cycling event and I think the consequences should remain in that same context and not enter his work life, the sad part for him is that this has gotten enough press that he will have a hard time having it not potentially effect his work life

Okay, I am getting off my soap box now.


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## mcoplea (Feb 25, 2008)

Any way you slice it, both incidents do not reflect favorably on our sport. People from all over the world will read about it/see it in the press and get a skewed view of the state of the USA cyclocross scene.


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## FTM (Feb 4, 2005)

I think that's a little overstating the case.
Has the 'cross scene in Belgium been diminished in your eyes?


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

mcoplea said:


> Any way you slice it, both incidents do not reflect favorably on our sport. People from all over the world will read about it/see it in the press and get a skewed view of the state of the USA cyclocross scene.


Meh.

Euro attitudes toward American cross are determined by Superprestige, World Cup, and World Championships results.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

FTM said:


> I think that's a little overstating the case.
> Has the 'cross scene in Belgium been diminished in your eyes?



LOL I wondered how long it would take for that pic to pop up. Euro's could careless about us.


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## karl_27376 (Apr 25, 2005)

you have got to figure that there is a fair amount of fan scuffles at euro races, especially when you have up to 20,000 fans at a race, and liberal amounts of liquid belgian courage.

heck, europe invented soccer hooligans, so 'cross holligans wouldn't be a stretch.


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

Columnist Patrick O'Grady weighs in on the Kansas City fracas


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## LarryD (Dec 19, 2008)

This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. I was there and saw most of what happened and then some that didn't get reported by Velonews. The brother in law put his hands on the bearded guy first then the pushing started. Then when I was walking back to my car Page's mechanic grabbed one of the guy's and tossed him to the ground and someone came up behind the bearded guy and started to choke him. I'm pretty sure it was the brother in law. How come know one is talking about this Brother in law Book who is a cop??? To me he seems more guilty then this Mcanich guy. There are always two sides to every story. I'm not saying it was right what he did but lets not drag his work into this.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

LarryD said:


> . . .put his hands on the bearded guy first. . .


Before the blog was closed the author used these same words -- "put his hands on me".

So if someone puts their hands on you, i.e. to lead your drunk and disorderly self away from people trying to do an interview, are you entitled to start a brawl?

There are always two sides to a story, but the obnoxious drunk side is rarely the winning ticket.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

<i>Posts: 1</i>

Hm....


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## LarryD (Dec 19, 2008)

Yes my first post. I have never been here before. A friend of mine sent me a link to this forum because he knew I was at the race. He encouraged me to post that there is more to the story so I did.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> ]
> So if someone puts their hands on you, i.e. to lead your drunk and disorderly self away from people trying to do an interview, are you entitled to start a brawl?


I don't think anyone should see this as a brawl. A couple people were pushed down a hill on to some bikes that were so unfortunately scattered all over the damn place for some reason. But to answer your question, where I come from, if someone puts their hands on you without invitation, not only are you right to engage them, you absolutely have the obligation to do so. It'd be dishonorable not to accept their challenge. It's kind of a samurai code kind of thing. Or something.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> I don't think anyone should see this as a brawl. A couple people were pushed down a hill on to some bikes that were so unfortunately scattered all over the damn place for some reason. But to answer your question, where I come from, if someone puts their hands on you without invitation, not only are you right to engage them, you absolutely have the obligation to do so. It'd be dishonorable not to accept their challenge. It's kind of a samurai code kind of thing. Or something.


I guess you live where trashy, socially retarded people come from.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

pacificaslim said:


> I don't think anyone should see this as a brawl. A couple people were pushed down a hill on to some bikes that were so unfortunately scattered all over the damn place for some reason. But to answer your question, where I come from, if someone puts their hands on you without invitation, not only are you right to engage them, you absolutely have the obligation to do so. It'd be dishonorable not to accept their challenge. It's kind of a samurai code kind of thing. Or something.



Where I come from if you say it time to "go" you do it on your own! If your buddy has to jump in becasue you can't handle it, you have no code kind of thing. When the closest chick becomes the 4th man ( person ) in you and slaps one of you in a headlock....come on, not only do you have no code, your self respect is about gone too.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

It's pretty much always been considered the honorable thing to do, even in much of european and euro-derived cultures as well. Society has only gotten trashy because *******s are allowed to put their hands on people (both literally and metaphorically) without being called on it.

But you guys are right that this whole episode is pretty comedic.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> It's pretty much always been considered the honorable thing to do, even in much of european and euro-derived cultures as well. Society has only gotten trashy because *******s are allowed to put their hands on people (both literally and metaphorically) without being called on it.


Wow you should write a book.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

pretender said:


> Wow you should write a book.


Nah, let's let Chris Jones do it. His article for Esquire a while back was a good start. 

http://www.esquire.com/features/man-at-his-best/punching1207

(of course in this case it seems the drunk hecklers were the jerichos)


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

pacificaslim said:


> I don't think anyone should see this as a brawl. A couple people were pushed down a hill on to some bikes that were so unfortunately scattered all over the damn place for some reason. But to answer your question, where I come from, if someone puts their hands on you without invitation, not only are you right to engage them, you absolutely have the obligation to do so. It'd be dishonorable not to accept their challenge. It's kind of a samurai code kind of thing. Or something.


Tackling someone from behind when he's walking away (that's what it looks like in the pictures) doesn't strike me as being very honorable.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

gobes said:


> Tackling someone from behind when he's walking away (that's what it looks like in the pictures) doesn't strike me as being very honorable.


_He was defending his 1st Amendment rights!!!!!_


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Well, spitting on someone is considered assault AFAIK.

I was pretty sure you were joking earlier with this "honor" stuff but. . .:skep:


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm assuming the brother in law is the one in the blue/black jacket, right? So he pushed the guy in the coveralls and red hood into the bikes first (http://pa.photoshelter.com/img-show/I0000yciVns0KigQ), then was in turn pushed by the bearded guy as payback(http://pa.photoshelter.com/img-show/I0000xXG9BjJKjMs) and http://pa.photoshelter.com/img-show/I0000sdKapt1qxCs).


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Guy was a drunken jerk who not only made a complete horse's butt out of himself, attacked someone and got caught on camera (see the Velonews article for the incriminating pic) he ended up trashing some Sachs team bikes- and THAT'S unforgivable. 

From what I saw the other side was highly restrained and was nice enough not to press charges- doesn't seem to be any more to the story than that. 

Jerk is lucky he is just being shunned from cross.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

pacificaslim said:


> Nah, let's let Chris Jones do it. His article for Esquire a while back was a good start.
> 
> http://www.esquire.com/features/man-at-his-best/punching1207
> 
> (of course in this case it seems the drunk hecklers were the jerichos)


That sentence in parens is why your first comment is stupid, in case you're unaware of your own cognitive dissonance.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

thanks for the compliment. i work hard at it.


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## jon_beasys (Dec 5, 2005)

2 sides to everything. Based on reading his first person account of the several fights he's been in in bike races, 
http://www.thebikegame.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=35

I'd guess that Myerson did his fair share of instigating the conflict.


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## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

jon_beasys said:


> 2 sides to everything. Based on reading his first person account of the several fights he's been in in bike races,
> http://www.thebikegame.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=35
> 
> I'd guess that Myerson did his fair share of instigating the conflict.


"the several fights he's been in in bike races" ... ??! I don't get that at all from that interview. I only see one fight mentioned and apparently it was after the the 2nd party punched him in the face first. The interview is funny and the interviewer and him seem to be friendly, so the head butt into the interviewer doesn't count for me.

Besides, Myerson is tiny. Even I don't feel threatened by him.


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## adammyerson (Dec 22, 2008)

Thanks for defending my honor, Susan.

Here's the story, if people are still interested in gossiping about it on the internet:

http://cycle-smart.com/blog/2008/12/20/alright-so-here’s-what-happened/

-Adam


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

This I like:

_Bike racing is just a stupid little game we play as a way to make our lives mean more than the drudgery of day-to-day existence. Our lives really aren’t that hard, just boring. Work, shopping, eating, cleaning – those things are tedious and monotonous and unfulfilling for most of us. We need our lives to be difficult for them to have meaning, and bike racing, like most games or sports, is a way to set up an artificial, safe, inconsequential construct that lets us experience a struggle that feels real, feels meaningful and emotional, but has no actual consequences._


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*you can see*

the one guy is clearly pushing the guy into the bikes
the guy being pushed is trying to avoid them
the guy being pushed quits resisting and instead leaps over them
the guy pushing does belly flop onto bikes as there is no more resistance

so on one hand guys intent is to get the bikes involved
the other the guy is clearly trying to avoid

(I'm looking at this when it comes time to assess damages in court)

and clearly these guys have never had a Joe Bell paintjob

if 10 bikes need to be re-done my guess is the bill will come to over $8,000

and that isn't counting any frame repair

maybe they figured it was the only way they could get a Sachs


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

The thing with Myerson vs. 90% of other racers is that he is so damn well spoken and articulate. He knows how to tell a balanced story, he gives blame and he takes blame. He sites the reasons why we want to sometimes throw a punch at a bike race and why we should not. He lays out all the consequences of fighting at a bike race. 
Whether I/you believe him no one can tell me that his well thought out version of the events is not, at least to some extent, compeling. Even if Baker had a strong counter argument I am not sure he could articulate it half as well as Adam. That seems to put some at a disadvanctage. I believe Myerson is a lawyer, just goes to show what a good education can for ya.


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

Adam, do you not accept any responsibility for what happened?


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## jmoote (Nov 29, 2007)

fuzz-tone said:


> Adam, do you not accept any responsibility for what happened?


 

Why should he? He called someone an arsehole in a bike race (hmm, haven't we all done that?) and the rest happened on its own.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

fuzz-tone said:


> Adam, do you not accept any responsibility for what happened?


Did you not read the article?

_I was angry at myself for putting myself in a situation where he could even take me out in the first place. And I was just generally angry at an opportunity for a good result lost in an instant.

I absolutely told Baker he was an *******. I’m pretty sure I told him he was a ****ing idiot, too. His response to me was that I was also an *******, or something to that effect, for crashing into him while he was on the ground. Duh!_


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

spacemanrides said:


> I believe Myerson is a lawyer, just goes to show what a good education can for ya.



methinks not


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

pretender said:


> Did you not read the article?
> 
> _I was angry at myself for putting myself in a situation where he could even take me out in the first place. And I was just generally angry at an opportunity for a good result lost in an instant._


_

If violence is bad for the sport, then all of the factors (including caustic attitudes) should be on the table when looking at why something happened. I've lost my temper plenty of times during sporting events, and I've been punched in the head exactly zero times._


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## cud (Jan 12, 2008)

spacemanrides said:


> I believe Myerson is a lawyer, just goes to show what a good education can for ya.


I will take a turn defending his honor. He was an English major. Witness the value of a liberal arts education.


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

fuzz-tone said:


> If violence is bad for the sport, then all of the factors (including caustic attitudes) should be on the table when looking at why something happened. I've lost my temper plenty of times during sporting events, and I've been punched in the head exactly zero times.


It's pretty commonly accepted in society that physical violence is "crossing the line." People lose their temper and say unkind things fairly often, and it almost never leads to violence because that's a higher level of "wrong," according to society. That's why no one is punching you in the head, and that's why Baker punching Myerson is significant.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

fuzz-tone said:


> If violence is bad for the sport, then all of the factors (including caustic attitudes) should be on the table when looking at why something happened. I've lost my temper plenty of times during sporting events, and I've been punched in the head exactly zero times.


Don't be such a weasel. Just come out and say that he was asking for it.


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

pretender said:


> Don't be such a weasel. Just come out and say that he was asking for it.


It's called being impartial, tough guy.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

fuzz-tone said:


> It's called being impartial, tough guy.


How is asking a guy who got punched in the head to take responsibility for being punched being impartial 

Both said nasty things to each other. Only one threw a punch.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

pretender said:


> Don't be such a weasel. Just come out and say that he was asking for it.



Pretender,

He sucker punched him? Do you get that? It is about as low as you go. If you are going to slug someone, square them up face to face and start tossing them, if as you say he had it coming. 
Sorry in my eyes you start sucker punching someone you are an a$$hole.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

spacemanrides said:


> Pretender,
> He sucker punched him? Do you get that? It is about as low as you go. If you are going to slug someone, square them up face to face and start tossing them, if as you say he had it coming.
> Sorry in my eyes you start sucker punching someone you are an a$$hole.


I agree with you (more or less). Re-read the exchange.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

pretender said:


> I agree with you (more or less). Re-read the exchange.


All apologies! Sorry about that, perhaps I could use an English Major!!


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

colinr said:


> It's pretty commonly accepted in society that physical violence is "crossing the line." People lose their temper and say unkind things fairly often, and it almost never leads to violence because that's a higher level of "wrong," according to society.


And this is precisely where society has gone down the wrong path. People now feel totally free to call others *******s and otherwise treat others badly because they are convinced that they will never be called on it because the other person would be even more "wrong." 

It's time to start punching people again. (rules: weapons are prohibited and sucker punches are lame. give the offender the choice between taking it back or getting what's coming to him. if he refuses to take it back, swing away.)


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## Just James (Oct 24, 2008)

Baker did a stupid thing. Baker should have to pay the price of his stupid action. Words are one thing. Hitting someone else during a race is another. Pretty sad if he misses his opportunity to race in Europe because of his actions. But justified too.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> And this is precisely where society has gone down the wrong path. People now feel totally free to call others *******s and otherwise treat others badly because they are convinced that they will never be called on it because the other person would be even more "wrong."
> 
> It's time to start punching people again. (rules: weapons are prohibited and sucker punches are lame. give the offender the choice between taking it back or getting what's coming to him. if he refuses to take it back, swing away.)


Ahistorical BS.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Are you old enough to know? I've noticed this change even within my lifetime. It's similar to the change in children's behavior now that spanking is "wrong". (fwiw, i didn't spank my kids either, but...)


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> Are you old enough to know? I've noticed this change even within my lifetime. It's similar to the change in children's behavior now that spanking is "wrong". (fwiw, i didn't spank my kids either, but...)


Yeah Im old enough to know and you can take your "answer with violence" ideas elsewhere. I don't think people should be able to stay whatever they want, but I don't agree with the idea that beating people for it is the answer, after all who draws the line of what is worth a beating? Is it bad words, different thoughts, different kind, surly you see where this is going everyone will have a different idea of when violence is justified I like the line we have now i.e keep your hands to yourself.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

oh, are you the one who gets to decide which opinions need to be taken elsewhere? 

(nice attempt at a strawmen argument but all that "where do we draw the line" stuff about different thoughts or different kind is irrelevant to the idea i presented. also, "violence" and "beating" are such loaded terms. all i'm talking about is maybe knocking someone on their ass - not sending them to the hospital)

the goal isn't to have a bunch of people running around beating each other up. the goal is to stop doing things purposefully designed to piss other people off because we know we can get away with it and they are supposed to just take our abuse.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> oh, are you the one who gets to decide which opinions need to be taken elsewhere?
> 
> (nice attempt at a strawmen argument but all that "where do we draw the line" stuff about different thoughts or different kind is irrelevant to the idea i presented. also, "violence" and "beating" are such loaded terms. all i'm talking about is maybe knocking someone on their ass - not sending them to the hospital)
> 
> the goal isn't to have a bunch of people running around beating each other up. the goal is to stop doing things purposefully designed to piss other people off because we know we can get away with it and they are supposed to just take our abuse.


Right I see where your coming from. Sorry I didn't mean you could not express your opinion or that you intended to kil people but while you "may" be able to determine who needs to get knocked on the their ass and when to stop hitting em Im not sure everyone will be so good at drawing the line but once you accepted that violence (sorry loaded or not that's what your backing here) is an acceptable answer that door is open to everyone and their interpretation of when its gets to be used I think you'll quickly find that the lines of when to use it and how much. 

Add to that the fact that odd things happen like someone mouths off to you you knock em on their ass except they have a heart condition and have an attack and die. Now you can tell everyone how they caused it and had it coming (the being knocked down part that is) but I at least wont agree that what happend was fair so we'er back to the idea that it might be better off if people learned to keep their hands to themselves. 

Yeah in short people say dumb and insulting crap all the time and I agree its gotten worse esp with the advent of the web so that cowards feel they can get away with saying what ever, in short grow up and get over it.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

32and3cross said:


> in short grow up and get over it.


I hear you. I do realize that we are all in charge of our own emotions and have (or should have) the ability to regulate what bothers us or not. But it just amazes me how rude, selfish, and inconsiderate people are becoming and I'm just grasping for a solution.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

I think the web has actually become more civil. People just don't go for the flame wars the way they did, say, five years ago. ymmv


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## Float (May 27, 2005)

More fuel to the debate - I see this episode as a classic watch out for the guy who is a known crasher.

According to Meyerson

"Except Baker didn’t just Fuk the turn up, he botched it so badly it was like he rode over a landmine that exploded underneath him." 

We all have given space to riders who are known crashers, did Meyerson make the mistake of not giving enough room?

Generally my strategy is to watch a wheel a bit and look for mistakes then pass but I didn't race Nat's.

This may be better discussed in another thread - Beware of the crashers


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## colinr (Nov 20, 2006)

Float said:


> "Except Baker didn’t just Fuk the turn up, he botched it so badly it was like he rode over a landmine that exploded underneath him."
> 
> We all have given space to riders who are known crashers, did Meyerson make the mistake of not giving enough room?


Sheesh, just include the sentence before your quote and it's hardly a question:


Myerspace said:


> I knew he could fsck the turn up and I’d exit on his wheel, saving a few matches and holding my spot. Except Baker didn’t just fsck the turn up, he botched it so badly it was like he rode over a landmine that exploded underneath him.


aka "I gave him room, but evidently not enough"

You can't back off three bike lengths in an elite race just because someone might crash. If the guy in front of you takes up enough of the course when he's crashing, you're going down too.


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## Float (May 27, 2005)

I think how many bike lengths you give depends where you are in the race - Didn't this happen on the first lap?

The three bike length rule seems in the ball park. 

I've yelled at guys in pelotons that show bad form - It's best to recruit there teams leader to do the policing.

Cross is different - Elite Cross is way out of my league but thanks for the input.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pacificaslim said:


> I hear you. I do realize that we are all in charge of our own emotions and have (or should have) the ability to regulate what bothers us or not. But it just amazes me how rude, selfish, and inconsiderate people are becoming and I'm just grasping for a solution.


To be honest Im right there with you and i occasionally give into the idea that they do need a good pounding then I realize their just not worth and try and put it aside and move on. I agree its frustrating to have to deal with people who feel they can behave really poorly and even revel in it. Hince as much as possible I try and just not deal with those folks.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

I am not sure that Myerson gets out of jail totally free either. I am sure ( have not checked ) but calling someone an a$$hole should not come with out some sort of consequences as well. Dropping F-bombs and the like can warrant a fine at least. I think it goes on too much and I havebeen guilty of this as well. I know it is all heat of the moment stuff, but I am in my late 30's and I know better, heat of the moment or not. There are kids at most cross races and they don't need to hear this stuff. It goes on because there are no consequences. When Treboohoo tossed his bike after Starcrossed in a swearing fit, to me that is good for a fine. Yeah a lapped racer botched his chances to win, but still there is a reason his nickname is Treboohoo and he ain't gonna shake it with the Riis bike toss.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

spacemanrides said:


> I am not sure that Myerson gets out of jail totally free either. I am sure ( have not checked ) but calling someone an a$$hole should not come with out some sort of consequences as well. Dropping F-bombs and the like can warrant a fine at least. I think it goes on too much and I havebeen guilty of this as well. I know it is all heat of the moment stuff, but I am in my late 30's and I know better, heat of the moment or not. There are kids at most cross races and they don't need to hear this stuff. It goes on because there are no consequences. When Treboohoo tossed his bike after Starcrossed in a swearing fit, to me that is good for a fine. Yeah a lapped racer botched his chances to win, but still there is a reason his nickname is Treboohoo and he ain't gonna shake it with the Riis bike toss.


Unbelievable. A guy gets assaulted during a national championship and the voices of "reason" bend over backwards to figure out how he can share the blame.  More punching will not make our society better. Neither will this "two sides to every story" crap. Sticks and stones. Someone calls you a bad name, so effin' what? 

Kids either know the bad words or they don't know enough to notice. If hearing harsh words will traumatize them, what about witnessing violence?


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> More punching will not make our society better. Neither will this "two sides to every story" crap. Sticks and stones. Someone calls you a bad name, so effin' what?


Should we be teaching juniors to swear at people during races, berate others' bike-handling skills as they pass them once they've crashed, and teach them to go over the top and call them every name in the book if they happen to get crashed out by one of these "inferior riders"?

What is the cycling equivalent of "unsportsmanlike conduct"? Is there such a thing? 

I'd rather be in a race full of people who _might_ punch you if provoked, than a race full of people who are constantly provoking each other with mis-placed anger and obscenities. Bad attitudes are usually contagious.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

fuzz-tone said:


> Should we be teaching juniors to swear at people during races, berate others' bike-handling skills as they pass them once they've crashed, and teach them to go over the top and call them every name in the book if they happen to get crashed out by one of these "inferior riders"?
> 
> What is the cycling equivalent of "unsportsmanlike conduct"? Is there such a thing?
> 
> I'd rather be in a race full of people who _might_ punch you if provoked, than a race full of people who are constantly provoking each other with mis-placed anger and obscenities. Bad attitudes are usually contagious.


Oh boy. Now I get it. AMH infected Baker with a violent case of "bad attitude".

I'd rather race with neither but again, sticks and stones. Funny how the advocates of a world with more punching have such delicate ears and easily hurt feelings. 

If there is a rule against swearing and officials want to enforce it, fine. By all acounts both parties were guilty. I'm sure swearing among juniors could be erradicated in our time if these rules were pursued more rigorously. It is still a tiny offense compared to punching someone in the head.

Calling someone a name is *not* a provocation that justifies violence. There is a line between wanting to hit someone and actually doing it. I have no problem reinforcing that line with a row of steel bars if that is what it takes.

Intimidation by threat of violence -- _there's_ the recipe for civility. :idea:


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> If there is a rule against swearing and officials want to enforce it, fine. By all acounts both parties were guilty.


I got curious and looked through the USAC Rulebook. Interesting...

*1O5. Abuse.*
*(a)* No rider or licensee may be disrespectful toward
organizers, officials, riders or spectators [warning for minor
offense; possible relegation of rider; and/or up to a $50 fine].
*(b)* No rider or licensee may use foul or abusive language or
conduct during a race event [disqualification and 15 days
suspension].
*(c)* No licensee may assault (an unlawful attempt, coupled
with the present ability, to commit a violent injury on the
person of another) or do battery (any willful and unlawful use
of force or violence upon the person of another) to anyone
connected with any event (including but not limited to riders,
officials, spectators, public officials, etc...) held under a USA
Cycling permit. [disqualified from the event, prohibited from
participating in another event for 72 hours & suspended for
up to one (1) year after due process]


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Oh boy. Now I get it. AMH infected Baker with a violent case of "bad attitude".
> 
> I'd rather race with neither but again, sticks and stones. Funny how the advocates of a world with more punching have such delicate ears and easily hurt feelings.
> 
> ...



You kind of missed my point. Read my views on the punching incident. It was a chump move by Baker. 
That aside, people do not need to be swearing and mouthing off at every little thing that goes wrong at a bike race. The point about juniors is a good one, older riders set the example!Swearing is a tiny compared to punching, but there is not a place for it. Crashing and getting tangled up is pretty common place in a cross race, so deal with it! Whyis he going off in the first place? Chucking out F-bombs is not solving the problem and no you should not get punched for saying them, but are you saying that I should be able to berate whom ever I want? If I am racing at the same time as someone wifegirlfriend or sister and I am lapping them and they make a bad move I should be able to call them a b!tch and have no consequnces? To give you some perspective read Josh Sneads race reports, he has all the same struggles as we do racing and he is never out there cursing others when they wad it up in front them. I believe you should be fined for having no class. I believe it should be enforced more.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

fuzz-tone said:


> Should we be teaching juniors to swear at people during races, berate others' bike-handling skills as they pass them once they've crashed, and teach them to go over the top and call them every name in the book if they happen to get crashed out by one of these "inferior riders"?
> 
> What is the cycling equivalent of "unsportsmanlike conduct"? Is there such a thing?
> 
> I'd rather be in a race full of people who _might_ punch you if provoked, than a race full of people who are constantly provoking each other with mis-placed anger and obscenities. Bad attitudes are usually contagious.


I'll tell you what: The next time you miss out on a possible top ten finish at nationals because some guy slides out in front of you, and you find your bike tangled with his, make us all proud by not swearing.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

Ha! Come on, you think that is why Myerson did not get a top 10 at Nationals? I am pretty sure he was not getting a top 10 no matter what. If that what takes you from your top 10 to 30 something then all the "you are an a$$holes" aren't solving your bigger problem. Sorry he is not really a top ten guy crash or no crash. In some ways I can almost sort of justify Trebons attitude ( not really though ) casue he actually has a chance to win!
Go to Todd Wells race report of when he and T Johnson got tangled up with one another and Johnsons leg got caught in Wells frame. Wells described it like being Tetris getting it out. So you have 2 guys who canWIN at any given time not losing their minds when they get tangled up. No swearing, no blaming,it is just part of racing!!


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Both riders know full well that using abusive language can be worth a fine and possible suspension. Although suspension would only happen where the abuse was extreme and unwarranted. Usually the racers involved would get a finger-wagging from the referee.

Punching someone is crossing the line and has zero tolerance from all cycling associations. There's a good reason why it is very rare to see fighting at bike races. If fighting were in any way tolerated the sport would be harmed very quickly (although spectator numbers might increase) - hence the strong punishments. Most of us are tempted to give abuse or worse sometime in a season, very few of us give in.

My guess is that USA cycling will wait until cross season is over, then hit Baker with a fine and 3-6 months suspension. They will be forced to fine AHM as well to recognise that he transgressed the rules during the incident, but to a relatively minor extent.


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

carlosflanders said:


> Both riders know full well that using abusive language can be worth a fine and possible suspension. Although suspension would only happen where the abuse was extreme and unwarranted. Usually the racers involved would get a finger-wagging from the referee.
> 
> Punching someone is crossing the line and has zero tolerance from all cycling associations. There's a good reason why it is very rare to see fighting at bike races. If fighting were in any way tolerated the sport would be harmed very quickly (although spectator numbers might increase) - hence the strong punishments. Most of us are tempted to give abuse or worse sometime in a season, very few of us give in.
> 
> My guess is that USA cycling will wait until cross season is over, then hit Baker with a fine and 3-6 months suspension. They will be forced to fine AHM as well to recognise that he transgressed the rules during the incident, but to a relatively minor extent.



Agreed.


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

I wonder if Troy Wells has read Meyerson's blog entry.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

No, you clearly missed my point.

First of all this is not a case of someone "mouthing off at every little thing that goes wrong at a bike race". Nobody is suggesting that you should be able to berate anyone you want. If you have to use strawman arguments like these, you should know you are off in the weeds.

Second, whether or not verbal "abuse" is right or wrong is irrelevant here unless an official witnessed it or a spectator complained. Between the two riders, violence is not justified regardless of what one said to the other.

Third, Baker physically assaulted AMH. Don't muddy the waters with this equivalency BS or by trying to understand how he deserved this thuggish behavior. You are plenty high on your horse about swearing, but someone _punched_ another racer, FFS!

Fourth, nobody asked you for an effin' lesson about whether F-Bombs solve more problems than violence.


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## Littletinytrainingwheels (Dec 16, 2008)

fuzz-tone said:


> I got curious and looked through the USAC Rulebook. Interesting...
> 
> *1O5. Abuse.*
> *(a)* No rider or licensee may be disrespectful toward
> ...


So does that mean the two guys in the Page fight both being USCF Cat 1's get a suspension or fine even though they weren't racing?


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## spacemanrides (Aug 11, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> No, you clearly missed my point.
> 
> First of all this is not a case of someone "mouthing off at every little thing that goes wrong at a bike race". Nobody is suggesting that you should be able to berate anyone you want. If you have to use strawman arguments like these, you should know you are off in the weeds.
> 
> ...


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## fuzz-tone (Sep 29, 2008)

Littletinytrainingwheels said:


> So does that mean the two guys in the Page fight both being USCF Cat 1's get a suspension or fine even though they weren't racing?


I'd say so, since it says "rider or licensee" I think that allows for USAC license holders not participating in the race to be held to the rules. I think when people/actions are bad for the sport, the sport has to stand up and make examples of them to show they want to keep things positive. Who knows if USAC is going to be proactive about fines/suspensions for anyone involved in either event who broke the rules, but I think they should be.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Nobody asked, but the "We need more punching" people sure need some sense knocked into them.


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