# Speeding Ticket



## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm riding here now for 10 years and on the weekend I was actually stopped for speeding (going down South Park Dr in Berkeley). The cop explained to me that just three weeks ago someone died on that road (I read about it and I actually brake before those blind corners but not on the long straight).

As I never check my speed when descending (it's too dangerous to take my eyes off the road, traffic, and surroundings) I wasn't really aware that I was going faster than allowed. Normally the topspeed is about 70km/h (checking the data after the ride), but this time it was significantly higher -- probably due to some draft that the car in front of me caused. I wasn't near the car (too dangerous as it could brake much harder than I), so I didn't expect that. In fact, I was under the impression that I was going slower than usual because I had to brake to avoid closing in on the car.

Anyway: is a cyclist actually required to be aware of the speed? Let's say my cycling computer would be set not to show current speed (or riding without a speed measuring device), would a cyclist here in CA still be required to obey some speed limit?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

My advice - pay the fine and frame the ticket.

So what did you get clocked at? Was this a radar trap or was the officer in a car matching your speed?


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## Jason1500 (Apr 1, 2008)

My concern would be, does the speeding ticket have any negative consequences as far as your drivers licenses and auto insurance is concerned? I would hope not since it has nothing to do with your driving an automobile...but with the government you never know.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Got Time said:


> Anyway: is a cyclist actually required to be aware of the speed? Let's say my cycling computer would be set not to show current speed (or riding without a speed measuring device), would a cyclist here in CA still be required to obey some speed limit?


I looked it up in the CA DMV code for speeding. It is all phrased in terms of your actual speed, regardless of whether you have a device that measures the speed.

The one other possible get-out is whether the rules apply to cyclists. Although the phrasing is "driver of a vehicle" it is clarified here that this applies to cyclists. If it had said "driver of a motor vehicle" then it would not apply.

Your other option is to go to court, and either hope that the officer does not show or ask for clemency. If you are going to get points on your license, rather than just the fine, then that might be worthwhile to you. It might not help you, especially given the recent fatality.


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

It was a cop in his car following me and taking a video. He mentioned that the guy who crashed did 49.9mph and I would have been going faster (he mentioned he had trouble following me which I don't believe). But he was nice and gave me a ticket for just 40mph (someone here at the office said I should have asked for one with 50mph -- he is riding for 15 years and still waiting to get a speeding ticket).

I just hope it's not too expensive...


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Any presumably a 35mph limit on that road. I would think that if you challenged it, the officer is going to mention the real speed to the judge.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

The speed limit on South Park Dr is 30 MPH, definitely posted, and bicyclists are responsible for following the speed limit. Not having a computer or having a broken one doesn't get you out of trouble, a car with a broken speedometer is going to be on the hook as well.

I went down South Park last week and saw the cop with the radar gun... luckily I wasn't going fast enough to get in trouble (not a fast descender and also recently read the article about the man who crashed and died). I've been pulled over driving too fast before, though. The park is definitely crawling with police. Since it's also crawling with cyclists, hikers, pets, and wild animals, you can't blame the authorities for wanting to keep it safe there IMO.

Besides, if you go slower, you can avoid the endangered newts!


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## Got Time (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks for all the feedback.

I'm not concerned about insurance (I don't have a car) and as I still don't have a CA driver license that doesn't affect me either -- maybe it will when I actually apply for one?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Got Time said:


> I'm not concerned about insurance (I don't have a car) and as I still don't have a CA driver license that doesn't affect me either -- maybe it will when I actually apply for one?


In that case they can pre-issue you a driving license indicating that you don't have the right to drive, and then add the points to it. They do this for under-age driving offenders for example.


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## poff (Jul 21, 2007)

Geez, the other day I almost got hit by a car running a stop sign. The driver said that he was sorry and did not see the stop sign. It happened on the intersection of Grizzly Peak and Sunset. Where the hell was the police? Pulling you breaks on South Park may be more dangerous than just let them go.


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## .steve (Jul 13, 2005)

What's next, ticketing riders riding below the posted speed limit? Isn't that also a ticket-able offense?


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

If you did want to fight it, the best bet is to ask for a fine reduction and plead guilty with the explanation and you were pacing the carS in front of you, but left ~4-6 second gap. Also, that the cars were pulling away from you.

The other defense may be more risky, but the cop says he didn't get your actual speed and couldn't pace you, which he needs to do write you the citation. He might be BSing you and you can make him provide the evidence. But if he does, then you make DVDs of the recording to go along with your wall mounted ticket.


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## robwh9 (Sep 2, 2004)

*If he really wants to get a speeding ticket...*



Got Time said:


> It was a cop in his car following me and taking a video. He mentioned that the guy who crashed did 49.9mph and I would have been going faster (he mentioned he had trouble following me which I don't believe). But he was nice and gave me a ticket for just 40mph (someone here at the office said I should have asked for one with 50mph -- he is riding for 15 years and still waiting to get a speeding ticket).
> 
> I just hope it's not too expensive...


Tell him to mountain bike at a SF Peninsula Open Space Preserve.

If he needs help, ask Francois.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

ukbloke said:


> My advice - pay the fine and frame the ticket.


This ^^^^.


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## Dinosaur (Jan 29, 2004)

*21200vc*

Bicycle Use VC 21200

"Every person riding a bicycle upon a street or highway has all the rights and is subject to all the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle. Including the provisions of law dealing with driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, except those provisions which by their very nature have no application".

You can be cited for speeding on a bicycle, just like any other rule of the road, such as failing to stop for stop signs red signal lights and so on.


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

Got Time said:


> Anyway: is a cyclist actually required to be aware of the speed? Let's say my cycling computer would be set not to show current speed (or riding without a speed measuring device), would a cyclist here in CA still be required to obey some speed limit?


ignorance of the law is not a defense.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Yes, you are required to be aware of your speed. Otherwise, everyone who got caught speeding would claim their speedometer was broken.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*get out of it?*

Can you get out of it if you go to cycling school?


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## Chef Tony (Mar 2, 2004)

poff said:


> Geez, the other day I almost got hit by a car running a stop sign. The driver said that he was sorry and did not see the stop sign. It happened on the intersection of Grizzly Peak and Sunset. Where the hell was the police? Pulling you breaks on South Park may be more dangerous than just let them go.


What a load of BS from the driver- did he really think that Sunset wouldn't have a stop? That street is only @100 ft long!


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## Poppadaddio (Apr 15, 2007)

ukbloke said:


> My advice - pay the fine and frame the ticket.


Right on. Be sure to ask the officer to write neatly because you are going to frame it. In one of those bi-fold frames, opposite a picture of a pile of chicken ****.


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## piatzo (Jul 15, 2010)

@ GOT TIME.. Ouch a speeding ticket! Believe it or not bikes must obey the same laws as a vehicle (car) such as stopping at a stop sign and lawful speed just to mention a couple. However if you take the ticket to court you have a better chance at winning in court than losing.



First, is the officer radar certified? Has the Radar been certified and calibrated as required by SOP and the Law? Another note, this will sound funny, but take it from me being radar certified for over 23 years, did he tune his forks prior to the last unlawful speeding ticket stop and after writing the current citation to you for unlawful speed?



Last, if you go to court the officer in question is required to bring in his log files from all tickets he has issued for unlawful speed. From his first ticket even if it was 20 years ago up until court date. It's a book we have to maintain forever!



Most cops are good cops. I'm just trying to give you some professional advice letting you know that you do have the options to pay the ticket, go to driver improvement school (no points assessed to your license) and of course take it to court. Remember your signature is not admission to guilt it's just stating that when you sign the ticket you will comply with one of the three options mentioned!



Take it to court and you have more to gain than lose. Trust me  Also is your bike carbon fiber and were there other vehicles around? Radar will pick up the heaviest object. Good luck and please remember to buckle up and drive safe.


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## rhauft (Aug 8, 2006)

*badge of honor*

A few years ago I got a speeding ticket on Mt Diablo. The ranger was not amused when I asked him if he would stipulate that I was actually going up the hill...


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

ukbloke said:


> In that case they can pre-issue you a driving license indicating that you don't have the right to drive, and then add the points to it. They do this for under-age driving offenders for example.


Never heard of this and seriously doubt such a thing exists for cycling violations here. In California, violations committed on a bicycle (speeding, drunk riding, running stop signs, whatever) have no connection at all to one's DMV car driving record. If they ever appear on one's record, it is in error and the individual can have them removed.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> Never heard of this and seriously doubt such a thing exists for cycling violations here. In California, violations committed on a bicycle (speeding, drunk riding, running stop signs, whatever) have no connection at all to one's DMV car driving record. If they ever appear on one's record, it is in error and the individual can have them removed.


This was an answer as to what happens if you get points when you don't hold a license. I don't know whether you can actually get points for a violation on a bike.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Just to be extra clear here... The OP was worried about if this bike ticket will count points against him if/when he gets a california driver license: you said they could make note of it and add it to his record anyway. This is simply incorrect: license or not, bike tickets are not reported to the DMV in the State of California. See CVC section 1803 or the DMV website ("Violation Point Assessment: Any violation occurring as a pedestrian or a bicyclist has no point assigned.")


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> Just to be extra clear here... The OP was worried about if this bike ticket will count points against him if/when he gets a california driver license: you said they could make note of it and add it to his record anyway. This is simply incorrect: license or not, bike tickets are not reported to the DMV in the State of California. See CVC section 1803 or the DMV website ("Violation Point Assessment: Any violation occurring as a pedestrian or a bicyclist has no point assigned.")


I'm not sure that it is that clear. The actual text in the CA vehicle code is:



> (b) The following violations are not required to be reported under subdivision (a):
> ...
> (6) Violations for which a person was cited as a pedestrian or while operating a bicycle or a motorized scooter.


See an interpretation of "not required" at this link. So this interpretation is that violations on a bicycle are not mandated to be reported, but can be reported for points at the discretion of the court.

But certainly the text you quote from the DMV web-site is clear - maybe that is what the DMV does in practice in such situations. But IANAL.


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

pacificaslim said:


> Just to be extra clear here... The OP was worried about if this bike ticket will count points against him if/when he gets a california driver license: you said they could make note of it and add it to his record anyway. This is simply incorrect: license or not, bike tickets are not reported to the DMV in the State of California. See CVC section 1803 or the DMV website ("Violation Point Assessment: Any violation occurring as a pedestrian or a bicyclist has no point assigned.")


Exactly, but I never carry my driver's license while riding. The ﻿jurisdiction of the DMV is limited to motor vehicles. If you had no driver's license, what could they do? Still, I don't want to take the chance that something could wrongly get put in the "system". Once it is, it's hard to reverse.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

oily666 said:


> DMV is limited to motor vehicles.


Here's the CA DMV Bicycles Rules and Safety page:



> Bicycles riders (cyclists) on public streets have the same rights and responsibilities as automobile drivers and are subject to the same rules and regulations as any other vehicle on the road.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

That sentence is just a general statement and does not mean bikes are subject to all, or the exact same, rules as cars are though. Plenty of differences exist, including how tickets are handled. The OP is not the first person to ever get a bike ticket in California: so we have plenty of precedent for what happens in regards to the DMV. And the only time I've heard of a bike ticket showing up on a DMV record, the individual was successful in having it removed.


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:
Bicycles riders (cyclists) on public streets have the same rights and responsibilities as automobile drivers and are subject to the same _rules and regulations as any other vehicle on the road. _

This says nothing about penalties and brings us right back to the driver's license issue. How could the they ticket a 15 year old who isn't carrying ID?


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

oily666 said:


> This says nothing about penalties and brings us right back to the driver's license issue. How could the they ticket a 15 year old who isn't carrying ID?


I was just pointing out that DMV takes an interest in cycling despite their name. The CA vehicle code definitely has a lot to say about other road users beyond motorized vehicles.


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## HIPCHIP (Apr 23, 2009)

In California, a bicycle is a vehicle and is subject to vehicle code laws, such as running a stop sign, running a red light, right-of-way violations, and yes, speeding. There are some bicycle specific sections, but most are just the normal sections. You can always request traffic school. If you do fight it, the law states that the maximum speed on the road you were on is 55 MPH. The posted speed is the recommended safe speed, so if you can prove it was safe for you to be going 40+ MPH, then you are not in violation, but if the officer can prove that 40+ in that location was unsafe, then you're guilty and will have to pay the fine.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I think it would be hard to argue the safety of descending this road at speeds higher that the posted limit because of the recent fatality.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

Since one still has to pay the fine regardless, and then pay another fee to attend traffic school, the only reason to do traffic school is to keep the ticket from going on one's DMV record and making his car insurance rates go up. Bike tickets don't go on DMV record or impact ar insurance anyway and I suspect that if ones notice mentions a traffic school option, then that means the ticket is being mistakenly logged as a car ticket and the offender should get that fixed asap!

There are a few jurisdictions that have bicycle specific schools and by attendng that, one can have their fine lowered or waived, but this isn't state wide.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

oily666 said:


> Quote:
> Bicycles riders (cyclists) on public streets have the same rights and responsibilities as automobile drivers and are subject to the same _rules and regulations as any other vehicle on the road. _
> 
> This says nothing about penalties and brings us right back to the driver's license issue. How could the they ticket a 15 year old who isn't carrying ID?


In California, you are required to carry an ID if you are over 18. Even if you are just walking down the street. And the DMV is definately not limited to motor vehicles.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

You are NOT required to carry ID in California while walking or biking or just living life. If you believe otherwise, please provide the source of your info.


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## jasonwells4 (Aug 7, 2006)

ID is not required in California for simply existing, and let's keep it that way!!!

I can't believe there are other states where people would willfully give up their autonomy. 



Now, with respect to speeding tickets... I always fight them with trial by declaration, and have beaten the last 3 that way(none for bike).


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## HIPCHIP (Apr 23, 2009)

pacificaslim said:


> You are NOT required to carry ID in California while walking or biking or just living life. If you believe otherwise, please provide the source of your info.


If you are stopped for an official purpose (I.E. any violation of the law), and cannot provide proof of identification, you can be taken to jail until you provide proof of who you are..


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## jasonwells4 (Aug 7, 2006)

HIPCHIP said:


> If you are stopped for an official purpose (I.E. any violation of the law), and cannot provide proof of identification, you can be taken to jail until you provide proof of who you are..


They would only be able to arrest you if they have probable cause that you have provided false information - not for not having an ID. That means you are required to not provide false information, but it does not mean you are required to carry ID, which you are not.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

HIPCHIP said:


> If you are stopped for an official purpose (I.E. any violation of the law), and cannot provide proof of identification, you can be taken to jail until you provide proof of who you are..


If you're driving or operating a bike, that's right (under sec. 40302 of the CA vehicle code), but what's the basis otherwise?


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## HIPCHIP (Apr 23, 2009)

jasonwells4 said:


> They would only be able to arrest you if they have probable cause that you have provided false information - not for not having an ID. That means you are required to not provide false information, but it does not mean you are required to carry ID, which you are not.


Yes, they can only arrest you if they believe you are providing false information. So if you have no ID, how do you prove you are not lying? So if you have no ID to prove who you are, they can arrest you.


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## HIPCHIP (Apr 23, 2009)

Undecided said:


> If you're driving or operating a bike, that's right (under sec. 40302 of the CA vehicle code), but what's the basis otherwise?


I don't understand what you are asking. The question was, are you required to have ID when walking or riding a bicycle, and the answer is "No", but if you are stopped for suspicion of a violation of some type, and you can not provide proper identification, they can take you in until you provide proof of who you are. If you run a stop sign and have no ID, and you give the officer you drivers license number, and he believes that is you, then he can write you a citation and let you go, but if he feels something is wrong, like you are giving false information, or you may not be able to be found at a later time (I.E. you are a transient and would leave the area), then the officer has the right to take you in until you are able to prove who you are and that you are not a flight risk.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

edit: hipchip gave all the info...

btw, you don't have to give the officer your driver's license number when stopped on your bicycle! Plenty of people have gotten bicycle tickets who don't even have driver's licenses.


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## jasonwells4 (Aug 7, 2006)

HIPCHIP said:


> Yes, they can only arrest you if they believe you are providing false information. So if you have no ID, how do you prove you are not lying? So if you have no ID to prove who you are, they can arrest you.


Yes if they believe you are lying, they *can* arrest you. That fact does not mean there is any legal requirement for anyone not operating a motor vehicle to carry ID. There is nothing in CA or Federal law that requires you to carry ID when not operating a *motor* vehicle. We only see a delineation of the procedure an officer must follow.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*identification*

Cop writes you a ticket. If you have proper ID, you sign a promise to appear, and you are free to go. If you don't have ID, you get a trip to the station for further processing, so they can verify who you are. That's all.


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## HIPCHIP (Apr 23, 2009)

Fixed said:


> Cop writes you a ticket. If you have proper ID, you sign a promise to appear, and you are free to go. If you don't have ID, you get a trip to the station for further processing, so they can verify who you are. That's all.


Exactly! That's what I've been saying!!! I only did it for 26 years, so I think I know what I'm talking about!!! If you are stopped for a violation of the law, and you can't prove who you are, you CAN be taken to jail!!! Don't know what's so hard to understand about that!


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

/corrected
thanks for the clarification!


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## CaliforniaPI (Sep 25, 2005)

piatzo said:


> Last, if you go to court the officer in question is required to bring in his log files from all tickets he has issued for unlawful speed. From his first ticket even if it was 20 years ago up until court date. It's a book we have to maintain forever!
> 
> I have wrote hundreds of speeding tickets in CA and never had to produce a log file. I was never a motorcycle cop so this could be just for them. Also most cars are calibrated once a year by the AAA and have a printout that the cop can bring to court.
> 
> Take it to court and you have more to gain than lose. Trust me  Also is your bike carbon fiber and were there other vehicles around? Radar will pick up the heaviest object. Good luck and please remember to buckle up and drive safe.


I don't think radar detects the heaviest object, I think it detects an object with a surface area like a car. Don't know how radar would detect weight.


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## dwgranda (Sep 8, 2009)

Radar using doppler effect picks up the object with the largest speed difference to surrounding objects.


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## Poppadaddio (Apr 15, 2007)

*Accurate Enough*



dwgranda said:


> Radar using doppler effect picks up the object with the largest speed difference to surrounding objects.


When I pass one of those little trailers that displays your speed, it usually matches my Cateye bike speedometer perfectly.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I'm late to this thread but...

If you get popped for excessive speed on your bike on public roads:

Be proud and pay the fine!

There's no two ways around it. You gotta be going pretty good to break car speeding limits.

Fyi, in California, this is not a point on your driving record and thus doesn't affect insurance rates.

fc


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