# This is very irritating to me



## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Am I a troll? Perhaps. Call me what you want, but I need to vent my frustration. In fact, I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I just have to get this out.

I know we've been down this road many times before, but this truly gets my goat because Colnago is my favorite bike manufacturer in the world, and has been for an extremely long time. I still like DeRosa and Pinarello a lot, but all I ride are Colnagos. So then, why does my favorite bike manufacturer continue to engage in deceptive marketing? Why am I having such a cow? Because I care about the brand and its reputation.

This is from Chicagoland's web site. 
_http://www.cbike.com/colnago_c59_italia_road_frame.aspx_

_*2011 Colnago C59 Italia Frameset* 

For 2011, Colnago unveils its newest masterpiece - Colnago C59 Italia. Please make sure when referring to this jewel that you call it by its rightful name, Colnago C59 ITALIA. Unlike previous models, Mr. Colnago purposely adds Italia to the name to emphasize the fact that it's 100% Italian. While many other Italian frame-builders state their frames are "Made in Italy" as defined by Italian law, Mr. Colnago truly believes an Italian-made frame starts with *all materials deriving from Italy*, built in Italy and painted in Italy. Mr. Colnago guarantees everything that goes into the making of this beautiful machine comes from his backyard - Italy. He is adamant about referring to his top of the line frame as the C59 Italia. In today's market, very few frame-builders can make this claim as being 100% Italian made. Anyone who has toured the Colnago factory sees first-hand how Mr. Colnago oversees the frame-making process especially since it is an extension of his actual home. Mr. Colnago literally lives on the premises where his frames are built. At any given time. day or night, the Maestro is there to make sure all of his frames meet his specifications and standards. This is one of the ways Colnago sets itself apart from the bicycle companies. It's his family name on each and every frame. When you see Ernesto Colnago's signature on a frame, it's his stamp of approval that you now possess the best he has to offer. _

Now, we all know that the carbon is Japanese made. Is it good carbon? Definitely. Is it the best carbon in the world? Perhaps. 

But if you want to smack talk your competitors, then at least state the truth. You get the same damn carbon as your competitors. Only, as you correctly pointed out, they don't have the balls to say that its all made in Taiwan and then painted in Italy. 

If you construct it in Italy, then all power to you. Are your lugs made in Italy? Perhaps, but you don't have the gumption to show everybody that is the case, and that they aren't made somewhere in China. Should we take your word for it? Perhaps. But don't freaking blame someone else for doubting you because right off the bat, you freaking go lying about all materials being derived from Italy. 

Perhaps Chicagoland is being a rogue retailer? Perhaps. But Colnago America is in Chicago as well and your have videos all over Youtube being chummy with Chicagoland. At best, you know the mistake posted on the website and you don't have the fortitude to make sure corrections are made.

And I thought Wrench Science and R&A are the only retailers in the US that are allowed to sell Colnagos over the web. Maybe things have changed.


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## ToF (Jan 18, 2008)

Are you sure the carbon is not Italian made?


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

ToF said:


> Are you sure the carbon is not Italian made?


It uses Torayca 60 modulus carbon fiber made by Toray Industries, Inc. of Japan.


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## Jbartmc (Sep 14, 2007)

iyeoh said:


> Am I a troll? Perhaps. Call me what you want, but I need to vent my frustration. In fact, I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I just have to get this out.
> 
> I know we've been down this road many times before, but this truly gets my goat because Colnago is my favorite bike manufacturer in the world, and has been for an extremely long time. I still like DeRosa and Pinarello a lot, but all I ride are Colnagos. So then, why does my favorite bike manufacturer continue to engage in deceptive marketing? Why am I having such a cow? Because I care about the brand and its reputation.
> 
> ...


Cbike is once again selling Colnago bikes. I saw this statement too. The official Colnago website reveals the carbon source. Speculation as to where the carbon is made into tubes is China or Taiwan, and the same goes for the lugs. Your point is VALID. 

I will order a C59 (not from Cbike) as I do not know if the fraud is Ernestos or Cbike's. I look at the fact that I have enjoyed the brand quite a bit and despite the fact that when buying a Colnago the component carbon tubes and lugs are Asian, but the design is Italian. Much like my Brioni topcoat hand-sewn in Italy with Mongolian cashmere that fits well, keeps me warm and looks great, my Colnago EPS works very well. 

Nonetheless your observation is spot-on. If only transparent honesty existed.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

If bike companies were really honest about where their bikes come from and who does the engineering, the landscape of prestige would look a whole lot different.

So much of what we buy are perceptions of a brand name and not necessarily anything that brand actually does.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

Jbartmc said:


> Cbike is once again selling Colnago bikes. I saw this statement too. The official Colnago website reveals the carbon source. Speculation as to where the carbon is made into tubes is China or Taiwan, and the same goes for the lugs. Your point is VALID.
> 
> I will order a C59 (not from Cbike) as I do not know if the fraud is Ernestos or Cbike's. I look at the fact that I have enjoyed the brand quite a bit and despite the fact that when buying a Colnago the component carbon tubes and lugs are Asian, but the design is Italian. Much like my Brioni topcoat hand-sewn in Italy with Mongolian cashmere that fits well, keeps me warm and looks great, my Colnago EPS works very well.
> 
> Nonetheless your observation is spot-on. If only transparent honesty existed.


LOL - If transparent honesty existed, you and I would probably be out of a job and the dockets wouldn't be quite as packed.

I am somewhat jealous. You have the two EPS's in Saronni and Zabel and now a C59 on the way. Just started riding the C50 this season, so I will have to wait for the C60 to come out. LOL

I'm getting my Master this year though in Saronni, so that should keep me happy for a while.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Just to reiterate, the only reason why I'm raising such a stink is because I care that much about the brand to be that hot and bothered. Otherwise, I would laugh and fluff it off. Just like when I chew out my kids when they disappoint me.


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

An interesting topic.....However, I wouldn't loose any sleep over this. Yes you are indeed correct, The Colnago C59 Italia is made in Italy. Its also painted in Italy. Take it from me, its a lovely frame and if you order one, a big smile will appear on your face every time you ride it!

This may help http://www.colnago.com/technology/materials


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

If you are so worried about the whereabouts of the origin of your carbon fiber buy a Time bike,or a WR frame that is completely made in Italy, they weave their own......... if not get a Colnago, the top of the line is still assembled in Italy, Painted in Italy and Ernesto's geometry is still one of the best in the world.......remember Toray is one of the largest manufacturers of carbon & aramid fibers in the world, their credentials are first class.

'Nuf said............ride!!!

to add to the debate: who makes the resin to form the carbon tubing, who makes the tubing, who controls the impregnation process is carried out correctly.....Colnago controls the tubes and lugs, assembles them, etc etc.......Iove my C50 made in Italy


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

FrenchNago said:


> If you are so worried about the whereabouts of the origin of your carbon fiber buy a Time bike,or a WR frame that is completely made in Italy, they weave their own......... if not get a Colnago, the top of the line is still assembled in Italy, Painted in Italy and Ernesto's geometry is still one of the best in the world.......remember Toray is one of the largest manufacturers of carbon & aramid fibers in the world, their credentials are first class.
> 
> 'Nuf said............ride!!!
> 
> to add to the debate: who makes the resin to form the carbon tubing, who makes the tubing, who controls the impregnation process is carried out correctly.....Colnago controls the tubes and lugs, assembles them, etc etc.......Iove my C50 made in Italy


You are absolutely missing my point. I have been riding Colnagos since the mid-1970s. Wouldn't ride anything else.


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## Jbartmc (Sep 14, 2007)

I think the point is about honesty and integrity from the point of origin to the consumer. That's how I see the issue. Best to be honest and let the consumer know all the facts so there is no issue about false claims and hiding behind value added numbers to make an item Italian regardless of where the bulk of the bike originated.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Jbartmc said:


> I think the point is about honesty and integrity from the point of origin to the consumer. That's how I see the issue. Best to be honest and let the consumer know all the facts so there is no issue about false claims and hiding behind value added numbers to make an item Italian regardless of where the bulk of the bike originated.


Thank you so very much. :thumbsup:


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

That ad is nonsense, and I don't blame Colnago. Cbike...meh.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Colnago says correctly, "Designed, built and painted in Italy". Have to blame Cbike for getting carried away or being purposefully misleading.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

This means they do at least some CAD work, painting and put the parts on the bike in Italy. It could be fabricated/molded in China or Taiwan with Japanese CF and still fit the description.


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

To be straight folks....when it comes to honesty, Colnago are at the front! Not so long ago, they produced those great films showing us how they make the EPS. This was a birds-eye view of how these frames are made. For those who haven't seen the films.....please take a look http://colnagoconbrio.posterous.com/?sort=&search=colnago+eps.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

*Giant or Merida*

I've heard a rumor that the tubes were made by a large taiwanese manufacturer; namely Giant or Merida.........

I don't listen to gibberish usually but in the present case it might be true.


Nevertheless as niceensleazy puts it they are honest about it and their bikes are still my favorite out there, i got to test ride an eps and a c59 back to back (lucky friends who wanted to try my c50) and WOW I do love those two bikes.....it took a few miles to relove my C50 but no problem since it is so well fitted..........


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

nicensleazy,

Do you know if there's a chance of getting the C59 in plain Rosso Corsa red, just like the Fireflies frame you linked to on your web site? Simply red and carbon. No neon, no flies, no stripes, no gold, no formula one cars, no art decor, no little man on a bike  And I'll probably be able convince my wife and kids they don't need to eat for three months. College is over rated anyway


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

iyeoh said:


> nicensleazy,
> 
> Do you know if there's a chance of getting the C59 in plain Rosso Corsa red, just like the Fireflies frame you linked to on your web site? Simply red and carbon. No neon, no flies, no stripes, no gold, no formula one cars, no art decor, no little man on a bike  And I'll probably be able convince my wife and kids they don't need to eat for three months. College is over rated anyway



Chech this out.......they do a stunning C59 in Red and white. These pics are from the London bike show http://colnagoconbrio.posterous.com/?sort=&search=london+bike+show


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

iyeoh said:


> nicensleazy,
> 
> Do you know if there's a chance of getting the C59 in plain Rosso Corsa red, just like the Fireflies frame you linked to on your web site? Simply red and carbon. No neon, no flies, no stripes, no gold, no formula one cars, no art decor, no little man on a bike  And I'll probably be able convince my wife and kids they don't need to eat for three months. College is over rated anyway


You could get it a personal color: Saroni red........imagine like the EPS!!!

Imagine this:










on this


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## frankq (Jul 25, 2010)

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I wish the only thing that I had to worry about was where my carbon and resin was formulated. When they were hand painting my logo's Fat Mike was probably coming back from a wine tasting at lunch and figured he didn't need a ruler. Talked to salesperson(brian) about it and was told that on smaller frames they stagger the letters so that it doesn't touch the white paint near the bottom. OK fine that's a good salesperson/too lazy to warranty answer. my reply was simply they only do it on one side? Oh let me call Colnago and see what's up. Ya Whatever that was three weeks ago still waiting for that phone call buddy. One thing for sure when you purchase a Colnago do it in person, so you can inspect it before delivery, saving that 1000 bucks on sales tax doesn't seem like a very good idea whenever I look at the frame from the driveside. Also dealing with Dealer or Colnago for warranty is a joke bought bike in aug 2010 from a dealer which will remain unnamed but it is located in Berkely, CA. Originally called in late september early october about the crooked logo and a paint crack in one of my stays, and have been playing phone tag ever since. Buyer Beware


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

I guess I just have to buy a frame, strip it and get it re-painted. All the frames shown are nice, but not the color I desire. I partial to simple Rosso Corsa, and Ferrari Red is as Italian can be, from the beginning of anything racing-related in Italy. I just don't understand why he has refused to make a simple red bike since the early C40 model (apart from the Ferrari models). Yes, I like the Ferrari frames, just not the Formula One cars or the Scuderia/Challenge Stradale painted on them.

I want a Fireflies frame, without the "Fireflies" and the unusual logos. Plain simple red and black carbon. Simple lettering.


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## nemorino (Jan 7, 2010)

FrenchNago said:


> If you are so worried about the whereabouts of the origin of your carbon fiber buy a Time bike,or a* WR frame that is completely made in Italy*, they weave their own......... if not get a Colnago, the top of the line is still assembled in Italy, Painted in Italy and Ernesto's geometry is still one of the best in the world.......remember Toray is one of the largest manufacturers of carbon & aramid fibers in the world, their credentials are first class.
> 
> 'Nuf said............ride!!!
> 
> to add to the debate: who makes the resin to form the carbon tubing, who makes the tubing, who controls the impregnation process is carried out correctly.....Colnago controls the tubes and lugs, assembles them, etc etc.......Iove my C50 made in Italy


Sorry for my English

I confirm the quality of WR compositi... everything is complety made in the north of Italy near where I live..

For example, the T800 WR carbon rims are a masterpiece (I ride on a De Rosa king 3 with Marchisio T800 wheels 38mm - with wr rims - and the wheel are stiffer and lighter than the other carbon wheels except lightweight.. but they are cheaper)

Anyway Colnago assembles frames in Italy, the bikes are hand painted in Italy in Cambiago (about 10 miles from here) and Colnago bikes are still one of the best expression of Italian bike design


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Troll: Is there something special about Italian?


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Troll: Is there something special about Italian?


the big hearted ( and breasted ) women ?


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

nemorino said:


> Sorry for my English
> 
> I confirm the quality of WR compositi... everything is complety made in the north of Italy near where I live..
> 
> ...


WR Compositi is REALLY hard to find in the US. I tried buying some of their bars, stem, seatpost, and hubs from a retailer in Italy and that took forever. I finally had to cancel that order because I wanted to ride my C50 before 10 years went by. I wish WR Compositi was more available in the US, or even from an European retailer that can deliver the product.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> the big hearted ( and breasted ) women ?


wonderful cooks :thumbsup:


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## Jbartmc (Sep 14, 2007)

I am cross referencing posts but the EPQ seems like Ernesto is using the remaining EPS tubes with the Q stays (which are probably all Asian) to make a new bike. No regrets in owning an EPS, but a new bike that is a mix of two existing bikes seems more marketing than imaginative.


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## tmluk (Sep 19, 2005)

Besides ATR (no longer in business), Colnago also sourced forks, lugs and tubes from the Flemish firm IPA Composites. I had a IPA Composites brochure showing as such. IPA also had association with Musseuw bikes, Mavic rims, etc. Is IPA still manufacturing bike parts for Colnago? IPA is (was) part of FLAG (Flemish Aerospace Group).

My personal opinion, it doesn't bother me if the frame parts are manufactured somewhere else. It is encouraging to see that the parts are assembled and finished at Combiago - thus *Made in Italy*. Trade Lawyer, correct me if I am wrong.

Regarding the comments Cbikes, it is exaggerated. In today's global manufacturing and sourcing practices, it is hard to claim 100% Made in XXX anywhere.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

ATR just announced their own frame, the Leonardo:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/02/leonardo-by-atr-group.html




tmluk said:


> Besides ATR (no longer in business), Colnago also sourced forks, lugs and tubes from the Flemish firm IPA Composites. I had a IPA Composites brochure showing as such. IPA also had association with Musseuw bikes, Mavic rims, etc. Is IPA still manufacturing bike parts for Colnago? IPA is (was) part of FLAG (Flemish Aerospace Group).
> 
> My personal opinion, it doesn't bother me if the frame parts are manufactured somewhere else. It is encouraging to see that the parts are assembled and finished at Combiago - thus *Made in Italy*. Trade Lawyer, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Regarding the comments Cbikes, it is exaggerated. In today's global manufacturing and sourcing practices, it is hard to claim 100% Made in XXX anywhere.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

merckxman said:


> ATR just announced their own frame, the Leonardo:
> http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/02/leonardo-by-atr-group.html


So, ATR is still around, albeit operating in something akin to a bankruptcy reorganization state. Kind of crappy for Colnago to kick them when they are down and go to a far east carbon supplier instead. However, I guess the bottom line is what matters.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

*looks familiar*

somehow this looks familiar.............lets wait til nicensleazy come around:idea:


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## Jbartmc (Sep 14, 2007)

One point is that Colnago never manufactured its own carbon. Throughout its carbon bikes, the carbon was sourced from some supplier. Asian or European, the design, quality control, assembly and paint is what made the C40, C50 and Extremes Colnago.


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

I guess its just a natural progression. At the time, Colnago were one of the very first makers to venture into carbon fiber. Colnago always strike me that they want to offer their customers the very best carbon and design. I own an EPS and a C59 and the quality of manufacturing is superb on both frames. In fact, you can just sit and gaze at them. The attention to detail is spot on. Personally, I'm very proud to be a Colnago owner and they always put a big smile on my face when I ride them. Also, here is a company which is still in family ownership and Mr C always puts his name to every frame. I have owned many other makes and modesl of bikes, but if the truth be told....give me a Colnago any day ! Enjoy your bikes guys!


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## Flanners (Jun 10, 2009)

Roadbike Action's take on this:

THE VERDICT
We don’t care if the frame is built in a flop-house this side of Uranus; the thing is as Italian as the Saltimbocca we prepared in celebration of spending countless hours gliding through the hills of Southern California singing Andrea Bocelli songs and praising Ernesto Colnago and his family.


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## ciclisto (Nov 8, 2005)

an opinion
I think Ernesto tries his best to make the top end in house.. now does the Japan Co. make the carbon cloth? maybe;as the old source(ferrari/colnago) used was in Italy (C50). but just making the cloth does not mean it made the tube,, that may have been layed up in Italy, just like Steel is welded in Italy but the coke/iron could be from Siberia!! so is it Siberian or Italian. splitting hairs,, so now he has tubes and melds them into a frame then paints it ,, not forgetting all the planning and design that went into it. It is a COLNAGO, like I said I have a C 50 and it was all Italian... but I am looking at a CLX and have no problem with this .. it is not a trek doesn't look or ride like one... it is a Colnago by design, ride and that is my point .. Ernesto is the designer and over seer no matter where it is done..
By the way I recently rode a Specialized Tarmac S- works SL3 and it is the best bike I have ever tried.. is it a Colnago ...no way totally different..
you can buy a Dodge Viper v -10,great car / is it a Ferrari ? no.. just different. how about a Lamborghini is it Italian ...you bet,,,even though it is German owned and uses Audi parts. it is not German in any way.

note* to Gnarly have you ever tried a tarmac S- works value your opinion on this,, I know you like your CX-1 another Itasian frame... yet most think it is one of the best..
end of this


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

From what I hear from my local Colnago dealer who is close with factory personnel, even the Taiwanese factory must follow Colnago procedures. Colnago reps oversee the production and ensure very tight tolerances compared to other frames from the same factory floor. Ernesto Colnago was even in town a couple months back to see first hand what was going on in the production facilities. http://tmosaic.blogspot.com/2010/11/colnagomrcolnago2010117.html


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

*Carbon Origins*



iyeoh said:


> Am I a troll? Perhaps. Call me what you want, but I need to vent my frustration. In fact, I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I just have to get this out.
> 
> I know we've been down this road many times before, but this truly gets my goat because Colnago is my favorite bike manufacturer in the world, and has been for an extremely long time. I still like DeRosa and Pinarello a lot, but all I ride are Colnagos. So then, why does my favorite bike manufacturer continue to engage in deceptive marketing? Why am I having such a cow? Because I care about the brand and its reputation.
> 
> ...



For those of you that believe that Colnago is using Italian made carbon fibre, you are living in a dream world. Have you not seen the stickers on the chain stays of the MTBK's? They are all made of Japanese carbon fibre. This is an indisputable FACT. 2 questions I would wonder about is that while it technically may be Japanese carbon fibre, in which asian country are the tubes actually made? And a more important question would be this: For how long has the carbon fibre been made in asia? It may be a surprise to know the answer to that. Total transparency would be nice.


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Well, Deng Fu and Hong Fu use Torayca carbon fiber produced by a factory and rolled into tubes in a duty free export zone in Guangdong province. I know this for a fact because the Chinese are not hesitent to admit it. Its exactly the same way lots andlots of Japanese and Korean branded products are produced in duty free export zones. The fiber the Chinese frame companies use is obviously of a lower grade, but even money says that the fiber that these $6,000 Italian frames use come out of the same exact factory.

In fact, I analyzed the company further and Toray indicates headquarters offices in Muromachi, downtown Tokyo, and all production in either PRC, Thailand, Malaysia or Troy, Michigan, USA. Toray has factories in Shenzhen, Zhongshan, SuZhou, TianJin. They are ***big time*** manufacturers in the PRC. No production in Taiwan, it seems.


Toray Plastics (Shenzhen) Ltd.(TPSZ), 1st Bldg., Shatou Jiaotan, Industrial District, Shajing, Baoan, Shenzhen, Guangdong, China

_"We are a professional manufacturer of carbon fiber. Our products include; Carbon fiber car parts, carbon fiber motorcycle, carbon fiber tube, carbon fiber sheet...etc.
For more details please feel free to contact me."_  

Toray Sanko Precision (Zhongshan) Ltd., Torch Road, Zhongshan Torch Development Zone (Zhongshan Port, Zhongshan, Guandong), China

Toray Jixiang Plastics (SuZhou) Co., Ltd. (TJPS), No.318 Dongxin Rd., Xujiang Industrial Park, Xukou Town, Wuzhong District, Suzhou, 215164, China


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

iyeoh said:


> Well, Deng Fu and Hong Fu use Torayca carbon fiber produced by a factory and rolled into tubes in a duty free export zone in Guangdong province. I know this for a fact because the Chinese are not hesitent to admit it. Its exactly the same way lots andlots of Japanese and Korean branded products are produced in duty free export zones. The fiber the Chinese frame companies use is obviously of a lower grade, but even money says that the fiber that these $6,000 Italian frames use come out of the same exact factory.
> 
> In fact, I analyzed the company further and Toray indicates headquarters offices in Muromachi, downtown Tokyo, and all production in either PRC, Thailand, Malaysia or Troy, Michigan, USA. Toray has factories in Shenzhen, Zhongshan, SuZhou, TianJin. They are ***big time*** manufacturers in the PRC. No production in Taiwan, it seems.
> 
> ...


"No production in Taiwan". I think you may be on to something.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Trigon may still do some CF fabrication in Taiwan, but they also have facilities in China. Same for PMG and other Taiwan based CF fabrication houses.


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## mtbbmet (Apr 2, 2005)

The_Kraken said:


> For those of you that believe that Colnago is using Italian made carbon fibre, you are living in a dream world. Have you not seen the stickers on the chain stays of the MTBK's? They are all made of Japanese carbon fibre. This is an indisputable FACT. 2 questions I would wonder about is that while it technically may be Japanese carbon fibre, in which asian country are the tubes actually made? And a more important question would be this: For how long has the carbon fibre been made in asia? It may be a surprise to know the answer to that. Total transparency would be nice.


Says the bitter former Colnago dealer.
Is De Rosa making their own carbon these days? Or is it ok for De Rosa to use asian carbon, but not Colnago?
The original post is ad copy that is not factual. Colnago is not shy about saying that they use Torayca carbon. Do they advertise it? No. But if you ask, they'll tell you. The Kraken is just peeved that his "exclusive" is no longer exclusive. By the way, your PR99 design is too reliant on decals. You, as a former dealer, should know that anywhere the design calls for the WC stripes Colnago will use decals. Your design is covered in WC stripes, therefor covered in decals, not masked paint. It's quite likely that's why Colnago went and put it in the production, the labor difference between a PR99 and say GDYB has got to be in the area of 10 hours. Costs them way less to paint, but they sell it for the same price.


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## pablotn (Oct 11, 2008)

I can see it now.....we are going to get to the point in this crazy topic whereby the birth certificates of the actual workers are going to be requested. Not Italian born? Well hell, it is not truly italian made.

This is all funny stuff to read.  

pablo


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## The_Kraken (Jul 28, 2009)

mtbbmet said:


> Says the bitter former Colnago dealer.
> Is De Rosa making their own carbon these days? Or is it ok for De Rosa to use asian carbon, but not Colnago?
> The original post is ad copy that is not factual. Colnago is not shy about saying that they use Torayca carbon. Do they advertise it? No. But if you ask, they'll tell you. The Kraken is just peeved that his "exclusive" is no longer exclusive. By the way, your PR99 design is too reliant on decals. You, as a former dealer, should know that anywhere the design calls for the WC stripes Colnago will use decals. Your design is covered in WC stripes, therefor covered in decals, not masked paint. It's quite likely that's why Colnago went and put it in the production, the labor difference between a PR99 and say GDYB has got to be in the area of 10 hours. Costs them way less to paint, but they sell it for the same price.


I think the simple point that the original post was making was that none of the carbon on any current Colnago is made in Italy. Rather, it is "imported".


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## pablotn (Oct 11, 2008)

It appeared to me that the OP was irritated by a claim a rogue reseller was making that all materials were made in Itlay. Not a claim Colnago has made themselves.

And it has thus been turned into a burning at the stake by drama queens.


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## tmluk (Sep 19, 2005)

IMHO, I would be very happy paying and riding a Colnago frame made with Toray CF. There is nothing wrong with Toray - from what I read, a very well respected CF supplier. We might be flying in a Boeing made with Toray CF some day.

To be honest, I don't recall ATR actually weave their own CF. My impression is they were(are) a fab-less, design and manufacturing house. They probably got their CF from somewhere outside Italy.

Toray is the CF raw material supplier. I am more curious in "who" manufactures the EPS and C59 main tubes, seat-stays and forks! Just out of interest.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

tmluk said:


> IMHO, I would be very happy paying and riding a Colnago frame made with Toray CF. There is nothing wrong with Toray - from what I read, a very well respected CF supplier. We might be flying in a Boeing made with Toray CF some day.
> 
> To be honest, I don't recall ATR actually weave their own CF. My impression is they were(are) a fab-less, design and manufacturing house. They probably got their CF from somewhere outside Italy.
> 
> Toray is the CF raw material supplier. I am more curious in "who" manufactures the EPS and C59 main tubes, seat-stays and forks! Just out of interest.


Same here, Toray is one of the biggest CF weavers out there.....what gives???


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

OK.....to put this whole carbon issue to bed. Having just spent a weekend at Colnago and looking at their carbon fiber until it came out of my ears.

The carbon is purchased from Toraya and then shipped to Italy. The bicycle tubes and lugs are then made in Italy for the C59 and EPQ. The frames are then hand built by Colnago and then get sent to their painting department in Italy. Then, once their quality control dept is 100% satisfied, they then get shipped to their customers world-wide!


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## ciclisto (Nov 8, 2005)

yeah!!! the emeperor does have his clothes on... all rejoice.


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

nicensleazy said:


> OK.....to put this whole carbon issue to bed. Having just spent a weekend at Colnago and looking at their carbon fiber until it came out of my ears.
> 
> The carbon is purchased from Toraya and then shipped to Italy. The bicycle tubes and lugs are then made in Italy for the C59 and EPQ. The frames are then hand built by Colnago and then get sent to their painting department in Italy. Then, once their quality control dept is 100% satisfied, they then get shipped to their customers world-wide!


So, is Colnago buying sheets of carbon from Toraya and building the tubes in Italy from these sheets? I just want to make sure I am following everything here. I would probably find that to be acceptable to me. Thing is, how do those stickers end up on the chainstays then? Is somebody in Cambiago really that stupid, and how does something like that get through quality control?


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

Never mind; too much drama already; forget it....


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## fabsroman (Jul 14, 2006)

iyeoh said:


> Never mind; too much drama already; forget it....


LOL

My e-mail notification gave me your entire post before you came back and removed it.

Personally, I think Colnago buys tubes from Toraya. I just cannot see Colnago taking sheets of carbon fiber and making tubes out of them and then building a bike with them. Just cannot see that happening. Plus, I would think Toraya would be much better at forming tubes out of the carbon fiber to begin with. I have no idea how a carbon fiber sheet is made into a tube, but something tells me that it isn't extremely simple.

nicensleazy, along with the tour of how a C59 is built, did you get the chance to see how they take carbon fiber sheets and make them into tubes?


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## nicensleazy (Aug 3, 2008)

Yes....the tubes and lugs are made in North Italy. If you think about it, Toraya has a job on its hands just to supply Carbon for the world market. The thirst for carbon is amazing. It was a great weekend guys!


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## iyeoh (Jan 6, 2005)

I have an email straight from the Toray manager in charge of bicycles and sporting equipment in Shenzhen, Guangdong in Mandarin that says he ships out tubes. Some rather big names are involved. Bottom line is that the whole industry is full of manure.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

who f****ing cares ?

Steel tubing also came from Italian mines ?
Aluminum was 100% mined and made in Italy ?

doesn't matter. those are just base resources.

Just like the plastic used on cable casings. The plastic probably come out of Lybian Oil. does that matters ? No.

What matters is the know how and quality put into the craft of the final product.


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