# Mavic Ksyrium SL Clincher Wheelset



## nicopausan (Oct 30, 2007)

Does somebody has positive or negatives on this wheels?
They seem a little over price, I just want to know if they are worth it!
I have the option for gipiemme as well. Thanks.


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## crispy010 (Jan 26, 2009)

Mavics are over priced. But they're pretty nice wheels.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Here are my issues. 
1 price
2 inaccurate weights
3 alloy spokes
4 the most retarded lacing pattern possible
5 durability
6 threads cut into the rims
You can get a lighter, stronger, and stiffer set of wheels hand built for 60% of the cost of the Mavics.


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## nicopausan (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks very much guys, I tried a set for few hours and i thought they were nice, but the allow spokes really made me think, in addition, it seems that it will very expensive to repair in case of an accident.
If you all have suggestions of very good wheels, which I do not have very much knowledge, will be very helpful on my decision.
Many thanks.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

I have some SSC SLs in black with over 10 000 miles on them--- true as the day I purchased them (for $500--- new in box--- from RBR classifieds). Their durability is excellent. But I would not pay full retail for them. Zen ultimately speaks the truth.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

nicopausan said:


> Thanks very much guys, I tried a set for few hours and i thought they were nice, but the allow spokes really made me think, in addition, it seems that it will very expensive to repair in case of an accident.
> If you all have suggestions of very good wheels, which I do not have very much knowledge, will be very helpful on my decision.
> Many thanks.


Give us your weight, intended use for the wheels and budget. Here's one of those wonderful mega-dollar aluminum spokes -


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Here are my issues.
> 1 price
> 2 inaccurate weights
> 3 alloy spokes
> ...


Could you please give some examples

I have yet to see a better, nicer and ligher wheel than a Ksyrium SL that costs that low.

better, could be

nicer, could be

lighter, could be

but the theee together ? where ?

As filtersweep said, I have my Mavic SSC SL since 2003, no issues at all, true as the first day, costed me half retail, new. and now I am running a set of ES Helium anyversary with the red spoke, that is simply beautiful, and another TDF edition with the yellow spoke for my second bike, no issues whatsoever.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Here are my issues.
> 1 price
> 2 inaccurate weights
> 3 alloy spokes
> ...


The other problem with the kseriums is the poor hub design. The free hub inevitably develops slop in it since the high load portion of the free hub runs on a bushing. While bushings do have higher load ratings and are lighter than bearings, they tend to be more susceptible to wear from the elements. As for the spokes, I find some people get thousands of miles out of there wheels before breaking a spoke, while other people will start breaking spokes after only a couple hundred miles. Hey, its aluminum, what do you expect when you use a material that has a poor fatigue life then make it small were it can't used to its best advantage (i.e. large tubes) and put it on the part of a bike that arguably sees the highest cyclic loading.

Steve


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

I have a set of SSC SLs with about 3k miles, and Neuvation R28aero4's with ~2k miles. Both have been reliable, but I find the Neuvations better on the road. Better handling, more aero, and same ACTUAL weight (within 25g). SLs ride ride more harshly, but are NOT laterally stiffer (rub rear brakes in sprint while R28s do not). Mavic recommends freehub service (clean & mineral oil) every 1k miles on their plastic-bushing-equipped FTS-L freehub, which is a PITA (see Mavic website & www.cyclingnews.com/tech/?id=2006/reviews/mavic_ksyrium_es). Neuvation uses more conventional all-metal freehub with 3 pawls (vs Mavic's 2) & much longer service interval. Neuvation is MUCH more customer-friendly with ready availability of replacement parts at reasonable prices. 

Durability at 10k miles? Not there yet with either wheels but my experience with my other Ksyrium wheelset has not been bombproof (I ride @ 170-175# and do not race).


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Could you please give some examples
> 
> I have yet to see a better, nicer and ligher wheel than a Ksyrium SL that costs that low.
> 
> ...


Ok but this is not spam you asked for it...

Here as a build that I do on a regular basis...
Kinlin Xr270s 20/24 count
Sapim Cxrays
White industries H2 hubs
Weight 1448 grams
cost is 655$

Since Mavic is off by about 80 grams on their claimed weight that gives these wheels a significant weight advantage.
The hubs have wide flanges which gives them a large bracing angle.
The wheel is driven from the drive side which will make it stiffer under power.
The rims are rock solid and super light.
The spokes are not make of aluminum so the will not fatigue and fail.
They will have a better ride quality because Sapims have some great dampening qualities to them.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

For what it's worth, I have almost 10K on a pair of 2003 Ksyriums..the last year they made them in black and they have been bombproof. I've hit potholes going 30+mph with no problems. The rear wheel could maybe be trued just a tad. I ride around 145-155lbs. I did not pay retail and probably wouldn't. They do ride harsh but I really like the look of them. If I could get the newer ones under retail I probably would.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I found this on a New Zealand Web Site










https://wheelworks.co.nz/blog/kinlin-xr-200-tune-mag180-alchemy-elf-1289g-road-wheels/

Doesn't give price but lists them at 1289 gr,

Let's compare with a set of Ksyrium ES











BTW I only paid $550 for mine


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## Gevorg (Sep 18, 2006)

I highly recommend Mavic Ksyrium Es ($800) about 8,000 miles and running, I did not have any issues at all, probably the best wheelset I have tested but pricy
I am in 220lbs range.
I have broken at least 3 sets of Neuvation M28 Aero after 1500-2000 miles, rear hub willl crack.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Salsa_Lover said:


> I found this on a New Zealand Web Site
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mavic is great at making beautiful wheels that do not work.:thumbsup: 
Case and point is the RSYS


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

My 2006 Mavic Ksyriums have been bombproof. Ride quality not a good as my HED Ardennes but Mavic got it right with my wheels. The R-SYS blunder doesn't mean the rest of Mavic's wheels suck.

And I raced on handbuilt tubular wheels for years and they were also superb. (Mavic GP4 rims and cutting edge 32 spoke count) 


I have no problems with Mavic but the wheels from Zen look great and worth looking into.


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Mavic is great at making beautiful wheels that do not work.:thumbsup:
> Case and point is the RSYS


Someone should tell the millions of riders who are using Mavic wheels!

R-SYS - eventually a company, somewhere, was going to come out with a product that should not have been released. Who could have guessed it would be Mavic.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

brujenn said:


> Someone should tell the millions of riders who are using Mavic wheels!
> 
> R-SYS - eventually a company, somewhere, was going to come out with a product that should not have been released. Who could have guessed it would be Mavic.


QFT

I would not get a pair of R-SYS, nor the Cosmic SLRs or the Cosmic Ultimates, those carbon spokes hasn't been yet really proved to be strong enough on real conditions IMHO

But probably in the future it would become as usual as it is today with alloy spokes.

The Ksyriums have proven themselves strong and durable.


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## rdolson (Sep 2, 2003)

I have a set of Mavic K SL3's, but tubular, and they have been flawless in the last two seasons. I'm about 200# and ride hills and rough roads and they have taken a pounding and not given me any trouble. The rear does have a bit of lateral flex during out of saddle sprints, but if I open up the brakes a smidge more, its a non issue. I think I paid like $700 new from my LBS.

Not as comfortable as my other wheelset (Record 32h 3X/DT/Ambrosio Nemesis) and a little more lateral flex, but a very durable and realitively light (in tubular) wheelset all the same.

That being said, I would never pop for the upcharge to the SL Premium's. Wheel bags and lighter skewers for what, like $100?

And I think there are tons of other choices out there. Better? not so much. Different? yeah sure.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

1) You take mediocre heavy hubs/rims

2) Lace them with overpriced propreitary, hard to get spokes.

3) Give them a name no one on the face of the Earth knows how to pronounce.

4) Sell them for more than they are worth, compared to other offerings on the market

And then you hire the best marketing team known to man. Really these wheels are one one of those landmark victories of what marketing can do.


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

Salsa_Lover said:


> Could you please give some examples
> 
> I have yet to see a better, nicer and ligher wheel than a Ksyrium SL that costs that low.
> 
> ...


Easton EA SL90: http://cgi.ebay.com/Easton-EA90-SL-...s?hash=item4145931b92&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Hello Fellas

I was fortunate enough to get a nice set of mavics sl anniversary edition from a friend who upgraded to a pair of HED. He sold these to me for $300.00 and they were less than a year old, yes It was an awesome Deal. I am new to cycling and so far I have logged in over 1200 miles on these wheels and I started at 210 lbs, I am now down to 190 and dropping. All I can say is this, I have yet to have any problems with my set and in fact my wheels as we speak are en route to Florida to be upgraded. yes Ceramic Speed bearings. Anyways bottom line is I figured since I got a heck of a deal on these wheels might as well dump another $250.00 for a complete ceramic bearing upgrade.
I love These wheels and I cant wait to get them back in 1 week

Ride Em Hard!!

Midwest Playa


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## zigurate (Mar 3, 2009)

Room 1201 said:


> 1) You take mediocre heavy hubs/rims
> 
> 2) Lace them with overpriced propreitary, hard to get spokes.
> 
> ...


Marketing can do wonders can't it?


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## nicopausan (Oct 30, 2007)

*making up minds*

Ok guys I just came back from few rides this week and I got the opportunity to ride several sets of wheels that we swap with friends on the road during 4 day ride each day 100 miles or so here in Japan, and I have to say few things.
Ksyrium very stiff and fast, does this brand have ceramic hubs?
Anyway, I tested Gipiemme H2.5 PROFESSIONAL COPERTONCINO/CLINCHER, and I was surprise by that set, amazing light and scary fast, a very little flex though.
Neuvation good but nothing more, nothing less, I felt like riding shimano Ultegra wheels, which is very good.
I am 210 pounds and the only rims that did not flex climbing and down hill were the Ksyriums.
Looks is a + for me as well.
I tested Shimano Dura Ace wheels also, and those were very good! Light and stiff, but they are out of my budget.
Therefore, for $600 I can buy a Ksyrium set.
I think I might have to go with those colorful ones, if you have more to say about it, I still thinking. The down side for those wheels is that maintenance could be expensive and I live in a place that everything is 3 times more than usual.
Cheers, and many thanks for helping make riding better and a way of life,
Nicopausan


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Stiff wheels*



nicopausan said:


> Ksyrium very stiff and fast


That's interesting, since independent tests have shown that Ksyriums are not laterally stiff nor are they aerodynamic. It's unlikely that the bearings are enough to make them fast. This does agree, however, with published statements from MAVIC that their tests show that riders are not able to discern wheel stiffness by road testing wheels. Don't kid yourself. Ksyriums offer no performance benefit over a set of hand built wheels costing a few $100 less.


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Sup Fellas,

As I stated I am new to Cycling and I sent my Mavics Sl to Florida for some Ceramic Upgrade bearings. http://www.bicycle.net/2008/ceramic-speed-bearings

They are on their way back here to Kansas, I will let you guys know how they perform when they get to me, I am going to Colorado in lakeville at the end of the month for a 100 mile ride, I will definitely put these wheels on the ultimate test and give you my feedback.

All I can say is this Just like Assos Apparels they are not the cheapest but I will not wear anything else. And so far thats how I feel about Mavics Wheels I am sure there are better ones but if you want a durable reliable and definitely good looking wheels, Mavics has made a name for themselves.

My two cents

Ride Em Hard 

Midwest Playa


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

*So you see nico, you're just plain wrong.*



Kerry Irons said:


> That's interesting, since independent tests have shown that Ksyriums are not laterally stiff no are they aerodynamic. It's unlikely that the bearings are enough to make them fast. This does agree, however, with published statements from MAVIC that their tests show that riders are not able to discern wheel stiffness by road testing wheels. Don't kid yourself. Ksyriums offer no performance benefit over a set of hand built wheels costing a few $100 less.


C'mon Kerry, post a link or a footnote or something re: the empirical data. Nico - buy the set you feel rides the best for what your needs are. There is good advice here, and if I were you, I'd probably go with theMmavic Open Pro rims on Dura or Ultegra - depending on your budget. I don't think DuraAce is so much better than Ultegra, but what do I know - I ride Ksyrium SLs.

I vary from #180 to #190 and ride quite a bit. I've never had problem one with 3 sets of Ksyrium SLs. But I'm in the bicycle shop capital of the world, and do my own work anyway. I also understand the appeal of cool stuff, like bladed unobtanium spokes, and titanium screws.


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## myitch (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm jumping on this thread since I'm also in the market for some rounds.

I was looking into the Mavic SL's also, but that one picture of the alum spoke broken just spooked me away from those. I agree, alum is not a great material for a spoke. Spokes need to be able to flex under stress with torsional, lateral, and dynamic forces placed on them.

I actually took delivery on a set of Neuvation SL's. First set was out of round and needed truing out of the box. To their credit, w/in two days they had another set at my door. Unfortunately, this set, while laterally true, is also out of round. Two bad wheelsets, okay I'm out. Brand new wheels should be straight. Their customer service is awesome for sure, but quality control is not quite as good.

Other suggestions for me boys? I'm 160#s, w/end rider, not a hill-climber competitor or tour de france racer, just a fun and fitness rider. I'm looking for something, maybe sub 1400g, clinchers, and not more than 6 bills give or take. I'm not concerned with flashy looks, just light, durable, functional wheels.


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

I weight 165 and had 10K miles on my first SL set without any problem, don't let the broken spoke scare you that could happen to any wheel set, some guy bought a set of Campy Bora and had two spokes broken.
If you don't like Mavic then try a set of Campy wheels.


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## myitch (Apr 19, 2009)

zamboni said:


> I weight 165 and had 10K miles on my first SL set without any problem, don't let the broken spoke scare you that could happen to any wheel set, some guy bought a set of Campy Bora and had two spokes broken.
> If you don't like Mavic then try a set of Campy wheels.


Any specific models? Will these work with Shimano cassettes?


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

These wheels and the deal are hecka hard to beat:
http://www.bicyclewheels.com/mercha...re_Code=B&Product_Code=RWN5&Category_Code=RWN

I've seen a set with the same spec for $260, somewhere, about a month ago. I think it was a Utah company.

Anyone know of a similar deal with Campy hubs?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Go custom build and get some Kinlin rims with a nice pair of hubs. They will be stiffer and last longer than any set of Mavics


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## zamboni (Sep 11, 2003)

For some reason Zen just hated Mavic product.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

For good reason. Any company that puts out products that do things like this... https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_urSQl6wUA5g/R8778SarJ6I/AAAAAAAABXY/l9vYYjxCosQ/s400/14.jpg should be second guessed.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> I found this on a New Zealand Web Site
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's my photo - the rims are the lighter XR-200 which are usually around 385g each. The XR-270 is slightly deeper, stiffer and heavier - each have their strong points and suit different types of riders and uses.

The pair of hubs in the photo is also quite a bit lighter than the White H2's which Zen mentioned.


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## myitch (Apr 19, 2009)

Nice wheels. Which Tune hubs are those and what's the total wheelset weight?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

myitch said:


> Nice wheels. Which Tune hubs are those and what's the total wheelset weight?


Im guessing Mig 70/Mag 180... As for weight i guess 1270 grams


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

myitch said:


> Nice wheels. Which Tune hubs are those and what's the total wheelset weight?


Thanks! I'd been asked to build a few XR-200's but was unsure what the stiffness or durability would be like and I had a bit of a sour taste in my mouth from the older nb-19 and nb-r rims which were pretty crap. I built this pair for myself to be able to do some stiffness testing and then ride testing of the rim.

The front hub is an Alchemy ELF, the rear is a Tune Mag180. Spokes are CX-Rays with SILS nipples, the front is 24x0 and the rear driveside 28x1 and 28x2 non-driveside.

Total weight was 1289g. The wheels ride really well and the XR-200 is a big improvement over the nb-19 etc.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Stop the train!*

Um, anyone ever consider suggesting Ksyrium Elites?

Cheaper, almost the same weight, steel spokes. 

Same style and name if you dig that.

I'm not saying other wheels out there aren't good, especially if you are or know a talented handbuilder, but I am not and Mavic and Campy seem to make the best "system" wheels out there -- they are relatively heavy because they are overbuilt.

I haven't tried Eastons, they seem solid. 

Yes, the R-SYS was a whacko idea.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Argentius said:


> Um, anyone ever consider suggesting Ksyrium Elites?
> 
> Cheaper, almost the same weight, steel spokes.
> 
> Same style and name if you dig that.


Ahh, the paradox of the Mavic / Fulcrum lineups: The lower end wheels outperform the higher end ones (and are MUCH better value.)


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

Kerry Irons said:


> That's interesting, since independent tests have shown that Ksyriums are not laterally stiff no are they aerodynamic. .


Kerry's right.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

Ksyriums tend to be over-rated & over-priced. And I own 2 sets. I am not anti-Mavic. They make some decent rims (Open Pros, CXP-33's, etc).


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Sup Fellas 

In case anyone is interested theres a set of Mavics Elites for sale on craigs list here at my town he wants $300.00 for them excellent condition, If anyone is interested I can maybe get the seller's email and you can contact him .Heres the link: http://kansascity.craigslist.org/bik/1157850553.html

He has the bags to go with the package.

My Two Cents

Ride Em Hard

Lastly I am kind of Curious how the guy broke the spoke as I said I started riding at 230lbs, and down to 190lbs and I have never had to get these wheels trued out. As for the Guy that got scared due to the broken spoke, dont. 

Midwest Playa


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## myitch (Apr 19, 2009)

The more I think about it the more I think, "Why use aluminum spokes?" I mean, we all know how harsh it is when used for a frame. Us higher-end bike lovers tend to avoid aluminum in frames. Then why the heck use it for a wheelset?! Aluminum is harsh, has a short fatigue life, will snap instead of bend under stress, and usually has to have larger-diameter tubing to equal the strength of steel.

Forget it. No aluminum spokes for me! I'm sticking with steel or ti.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

Midwest Playa said:


> Sup Fellas
> 
> In case anyone is interested theres a set of Mavics Elites for sale on craigs list here at my town he wants $300.00 for them excellent condition, If anyone is interested I can maybe get the seller's email and you can contact him .Heres the link: http://kansascity.craigslist.org/bik/1157850553.html
> 
> ...


I have seen quite a few broken mavic aluminum spokes come through our shop. They break in lots of different places but I find the more common location to be towards the nipple. My experience has been there is no ryme or reason to mavic spokes breaking. Some people are 200+ lbs and ride them for 12,000 miles with no problems. Other people weigh160lbs or less and break spokes after a few thousand miles. Quality control is the only thing I can think of that would account for this randomness. If wheels are hand built by a good wheel biulder they will all last a lot longer than 12,000 miles without breaking spokes. This is because quality control and materials used are much better. Ksyrium's are great for some people but you are gambeling with relatively poor percentages as to whether or not you are going to get a set that is going to be problem free.

Steve


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

ssauter said:


> I have seen quite a few broken mavic aluminum spokes come through our shop.


Can you give us the repair stories on this regarding costs and availability of parts?


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

myitch said:


> The more I think about it the more I think, "Why use aluminum spokes?" I mean, we all know how harsh it is when used for a frame. Us higher-end bike lovers tend to avoid aluminum in frames. Then why the heck use it for a wheelset?! Aluminum is harsh, has a short fatigue life, will snap instead of bend under stress, and usually has to have larger-diameter tubing to equal the strength of steel.
> 
> Forget it. No aluminum spokes for me! I'm sticking with steel or ti.


Ya I agree its just pure marketing BS.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

Mike T. said:


> Can you give us the repair stories on this regarding costs and availability of parts?


Our shop caries very few mavic spokes. Most of the time I have to special order them or a customer will look elsewhere to see if someone has them in stock. Around my area most of the shops have a relatively poor supply of mavic spokes. Cost of a ksyerium aluminum spoke is your normal $4-$5 with labor running around $15-$20 depending on how bad the wheel is to true. 

Steve


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

As I've said, thousands of miles on Mavics (which cost me 595.00 new in 2006) and no spoke breakage. I've spent more money in labor replacing stainless spokes over the years on my aluminum hand-builts. Don't get me wrong because I like both wheelsets and would also love a nice set of Edge hand-builts; however, I find it interesting that training on an amazing hand-built 2500.00 carbon wheelset with 700.00 rims is acceptable but the prospect of replacing a 15 dollar spoke on a Mavic is a risk not worth taking. 
Now that is pure marketing hype....


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

HAHAHHAHAHAHA GOOD POINT FOR ALL YOU MAVICS HATERS. 

THANKS LOOKBIKER. LOL

Its just the way I roll

Ride Em Had

Midwest Playa


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

FWIW-
I would NOT call myself a "Mavic Hater", but a realistic Mavic OWNER (wheels AND rims) who just has not fallen prey to the Ksyrium marketing hype. And the too-frequent customer neglect that Mavic has become. 
But being realistic- if I got the deal Playa got on those SL's I'd jump on 'em too!! Or maybe Argentius is right that Elites (at substantial discount) are the best all-around Ksyriums. However- at anywhere near retail Ksyriums are just NOT the best "upgrade" choice for most riders.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Agreed. I would not spend nearly a grand on Mavics now as a
_performance_ upgrade. In my experience, the Mavics are very good durable, wheels but the aluminum hand-builts are a better deal with a 40% savings. I snagged a good deal on my Ksyriums and have been satisfied. Then again, I often use my 20 year old GP4 tubular wheels with 36 spokes in the rear and cutting edge 32 spokes in the front so my credibility might be suspect.


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## DasCharisma (May 22, 2009)

For those of us who like good looking wheels, aren't in need of ultra performance, but still need durable wheels, what are the best options? Are all mass produced wheels crap? Are there any wheels with thick, black spokes that are worth riding?



Brad


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

DasCharisma said:


> For those of us who like good looking wheels, aren't in need of ultra performance, but still need durable wheels, what are the best options? Are all mass produced wheels crap? Are there any wheels with thick, black spokes that are worth riding?


It all depends on whether you want form over fashion; bulletproof over bling. It all depends on your definition of "good looking". No-one can decide for you. If bizarre spoking patterns and gaudy graphics are "good looking" to you then you've never had as much to choose from - at a price.

One we get past the benchmark wheelset (arguably Ultegra hubs, 32 spokes, OpenPro, Velocity or DT rims) we get diminished returns for dollars spent all the way from $240 of the handbuilt Ultegra hubbed wheels  at BWW to the stratospheric $6500 of the Lightweight Obermayer carbon wonder wheels provided to some of the top pros.

You ask if all mass production wheels are crap. Well Das, there is mass production (as in machine assembled in China) and mass production (as in the top line wheels hand assembled in a factory) versus hand built wheels by one-man operations that crank out wheels as a living. So your "mass production" terminology needs a definition.

I think I know what you mean though in this instance - "mass production" as in factory high-end prebuilt wheels. These tend to be (arguably) over priced, over weight and harder and more expensive to get parts for or service relative to the mid to higher end custom handbuilts.

We all have different needs and wants in wheels but for me, right now, (I don't race anymore but ride very "sporty") the wheel of choice would be DuraAce hubs, OpenPro rims and DT Comp spokes. Their cost at just over $400 at Bicycle Wheel Warehouse is incredible. Heck I already have them! Or if I could dream it would be DT RR1.1 rims, DuraAce hubs & Sapim CX-Ray spokes for $563 from the same place. But that's me.

Then I could easily drop 2-3x that cost, hopefully save a handful of grams (it's not a given) and gain a few "Oooh ahhh's" at the coffee shop or club ride. And they just might shave a few measly seconds off a 30 mile hard ride. And maybe not.


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Sup Fella's

Good Evening and welcome to the weekend!!

My Mavics arrived today, my friend in Florida snet them overnight to me to my surpized. I told Everyone I was going give you my scoop on the ceramic bearing upgrade http://www.ceramicspeed.com/bicycle_products.htm. I dont know if its Mental, Phsycological or Anal, but let me tell you guys, I just got back from a 20 mile here in Kansas and All I can say is this, if you can afford to do the upgrade please do so. Heres what I noticed. The bearings are super freaking buttery smooth and I mean I can tell in comparison to the elite mavics (Sons) which I was using while these were gone, The rolling resistance is out of this world. Brian who owns Bikeworks in Florida http://www.ceramicspeed.com/bicycle_products.htm told me do not get just any ceramic bearings he said some manufacturers out there make ceramic bearing but the casing they use is crap. I know I might be jumping off the topic here but I hope by now we can all agree that Mavics are quality wheels right? yes they are pricey if you have to buy them new but why not use the internet resources ie craigs list, ebay and so on and so forth hell date your friends daughter for crying out loud maybe the dad owns a se you can get for free.lol Anyways another thing I noticed today was the less vibration on the frame even my 12 year old said dad check this out he crank the rear wheel while it was on the park tool stand and then he said feel the frame Dad less vibration in comparison before the upgrad. no wonder it was riding so freaking smooth today when I took it for a spin, lastly check out the new sneakers that bryan sent me, Velolfex, I was using Contis Grand Prix w chili sauce( hard as a rock) and let me tell you guys along with my Assos Mille Bibs I was in Heaven. These Freaking tires are awesome, I think they are at least 300 tpi dont quote me but now I know why Brian said they ride like tubulars , The Freaking Italians can make good Rubber.lol I am sure we will have comments like yes do you know that they will only last for so many miles?? I say so freaking what thats why you sacrifice one lunch out of the week and put it aside so that by the time you wear them out there you go. Anyways I have yacked way too much Sorry Gents. I am leaving for Leadville Colorado next Thursday to ride the 100 miles of nothing but downhill with some good friends.lol I am so freaking stoked.
Tomorrow I am going for a 50 mile Saturday Brisk ride for conditioning for next week, Dam I have yet to break a Spoke after oh 1300 miles so far this year???lol

Its how I roll

Ride Em hard

Midwest Playa

Will Someone show me how to download a pics so I can show you guys what I am talking about?


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

found some interesting pics


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## Derailer (Apr 28, 2005)

I'm sure people are taking Zen's critiques with a big freaking grain of salt. It is in his best interests to badmouth Mavic. 

I've had a pair of K Elites for 4 years now. Never needed so much as a truing. I would definitely buy another pair. But variety is the spice of life, so my next wheelset will be different. 

BTW and FWIW I have heard that the Kinlin rims are not all that durable. This is just internet hearsay, mind you, but I have heard it.


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Sup fellas

Good Point Derailer, And to the person who posted those pics, all I can say is this, who ever owned those wheels dont know how to take care of his or her stuff my impression. I have over 1300 miles on my set and if you put this set against a new set, you probabaly cant tell they are used. I always wipe my wheels after ea workout and put a coat of car wax once a week.As stated I have never had to get them trued out ever since I owned them other than getting them retro fitted for ceramic bearings. Speaking of which I just got back from a 45 mile ride today and I am in love with my mavics even more.

Its how I roll 

Ride them hard

Midwest Playa.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Nearly six thousand miles, no spoke breakage or need to be trued. 190 lbs on rough roads.

Doesn't prove that they are durable for everyone, just like random of photos of trashed wheels doesn't prove that they are junk. 

Someday, Edge tubular hand-builts.


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## rivren5 (Mar 1, 2009)

Sure - his professional opinions will be the ruin of Mavic! I would rather have the parts in a custom build as opposed to Mavic parts - that is just me! The guy builds wheels - the parts are quality. I hate the "what I have heard.." internet biking is never a good idea - ride what you like...where did you hear that Kinlin rims are not very durable? Please site your sources. I do think Mavics are very overpriced...




Derailer said:


> I'm sure people are taking Zen's critiques with a big freaking grain of salt. It is in his best interests to badmouth Mavic.
> 
> I've had a pair of K Elites for 4 years now. Never needed so much as a truing. I would definitely buy another pair. But variety is the spice of life, so my next wheelset will be different.
> 
> BTW and FWIW I have heard that the Kinlin rims are not all that durable. This is just internet hearsay, mind you, but I have heard it.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

This thread needs to die...
This is the conclusion that I think we all can agree on. A lot of people love their Mavics which is great. Some people have great luck with them and ride them for years while others may have problems. There are some of us out there, myself included, that would do things differently if we were owned the company. Don't get me wrong Mavic has and still does make some great products. The beauty of this forum is when you ask about a product you will get multiple differing opinions from people all over the industry. Because every company claims their products are the "best" making a good choice is often difficult. I look at this forum as a great place for people to seek second opinions so they don't have to believe everything that a company like Mavic, Zipp, Reynolds, ex... tells them.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I never had any problem in my almost 10 years riding Mavic wheels

My Heliums and Aluminum Cosmics are still round and true and I ride them once in a while on my 9 speed oldie.

I have a Ksyrium SSC SL set 6 years old, still true, hubs still smooth, brake surfaces with plenty left for other 4 years I guess.

My set of ES is simply beautiful.

None of my friends have never had any problem with their wheels that I have heard in more than 10 years of cycling.

Sure there are other options around.

The only thing that I find "amusing" is the fundamentalist attitude of some groups, but alas, this is true in any internet forum of any specialized subject and surely in any socio-cultural group.

the "steel is real" and "only Open Pro 36 cross is good" crowds, are like on a mission to covert all us dumb people who felt on the marketing ploys of the main players of the industry and are silly riding carbon frames with Ksyrium or Cosmic wheels.



as Playa said.

Ride them hard. 


BTW I have my oldie, steel lugged and 36 cross Mavic Open Sup wheels and I enjoy to ride it too.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Anyone who has seen the products that a lot of the builders on this thread produce would not call us fundamentalist. Please do some research. That is like calling Steve jobs a dinosaur because he thinks Windows Vista is crap. If you think offering multiple sets of wheels under 1000 grams is old school then I don't know what top tell you. Go ahead and love your Mavics that is fine. I have one of the first sets of Carbones. I still ride them because they are great wheels, and they don't have alloy spokes.

This comment "steel is real". Just because I think alloy should not be used in spokes does not mean that I have to ride steel everything. I have an R3. I think the only bits of steel on the bike are the spokes and a hand full of bolts.

I am here to tell you that it is not an opinion that alloy spokes are not as durable it is a fact. Why do you think they make the damn things so stiff. You can love a product but that does not mean it does not have flaws. 

Example... I love my Cervelo R3 but that does not mean that I buy into all the marketing BS that they try and sell me. I think the P4 is a piece of junk. What the hell is with that bento box thing on it? I also think that they should fire the third grader that paints the bikes because he is obviously having a seizure while he is doing it. See what I just did. I own a product that I really like and I can see that even though I love it there are places for improvement.


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes, this thread should die. Also, I've probably jinxed my Mavics. If you think Cervelo is bad, try BMC. I love my Pro Machine but that insane seat clamp is pure marketing.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Derailer said:


> BTW and FWIW I have heard that the Kinlin rims are not all that durable.


I've yet to hear of a single 27 or 30mm... or the the 22mm for that matter... having an eyelet cracking problem. The 19mm rim is a different story.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Derailer said:


> BTW and FWIW I have heard that the Kinlin rims are not all that durable.


Whoever told you that was making it up. Kinlins are some of the most durable alloy rims available. For their weight there are no rims that compare in strength. I have built many sets with these rims and I have yet to receive a single complaint. Every wheel builder that I know that offers them prefers them over Dts and Alex. I am in lockset with rruff on this one.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Zen Cyclery said:


> I am here to tell you that it is not an opinion that alloy spokes are not as durable it is a fact. Why do you think they make the damn things so stiff.


Actually the aluminum spokes aren't stiff either... for the same cross section they are 1/3 as stiff as steel spokes. And they suffer the same issue as any aluminum alloy... no fatigue limit. You might get lucky and have your bomber SS spoked wheels last forever, but with aluminum spokes it is just a matter of time (ie miles). 

The chunky hubs and fat spokes on the Ksyriums makes them one of the least aero wheels you can get... beaten only (in the race to the bottom) by the traditional many-round-spoked-with-shallow-rim wheelsets, and the all time worst, their R-Sys. Aero might not make a lot of difference, but it matters more than anything else if you want to go fast.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

In practice, the "stiffness" of AL is usu a product of part design. Steel is more forgiving & stronger than AL for a given volume. AL frames are usu stiff because they can use more material (greater cross-sectional areas) for durability while still achieving a lighter overall weight than steel. There's a reason the old SL spokes were SO wide.

There are data to support the poor-aero claims. Most independent testing has found that Ksyriums are among the least aero of the boutique wheels (Tour mag, RouesArtinales).

In summary- NO wheel designs are perfect. Ksyriums are very common & literally every regional club I've ridden with has some reporting Mavic issues and many others with no problems. Which means exactly nothing. AFAIK- there is no centralized reporting of bike wheel issues to create a database of the INCIDENCE of wheel defects. IMHO- Ksyriums are neither the best nor the worst wheels available. Just too expensive at anywhere near MSRP & a record of less-than-stellar customer service.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Oldteen said:


> There's a reason the old SL spokes were SO wide.


??

Aluminum frames are both lighter and stiffer than steel because the tubes have a larger diameter (as well as 1/3 the density) and are loaded in torsion and bending. In wheels the spokes are almost entirely loaded axially, so there is no benefit to going large. The stiffness is ruled by the elastic modulus and cross sectional area.


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## Oldteen (Sep 7, 2005)

My bad- frame design is a horrible analogy. Frame tubes bring in WAY too many other practical considerations (e.g. tube resistance to denting, welding, butting,etc.), and anyway modulus numbers are quoted for solid pieces (not tubes).

I agree that "stiffness is ruled by elastic modulus and cross sectional area". Point I was trying to make is that elasticity (Young's Modulus) is defined per cross-sectional area (e.g. per sq in). To achieve the same yield strength (or ideally better, since AL has minimal fatigue life & fails when it bends significantly), a solid Al part should be at least 3X (prob 5-7X) the cross-sectional area of a similar solid steel piece. To avoid catastrophic failures due to Al bending, manufacturers typically oversize Al parts (e.g. old bladed AL Ksyrium spokes). A specific bike part may be stiffer made from Al because of much greater size (i.e. increased x-sectional area greater than the Al/steel difference in elastic modulus). 
Not bike specific, but interesting disc of Al vs steel parts-

http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/messages/176.html

Not sure I totally agree that lateral loads are irrelevant to bike wheels (e.g. MTBer taco'ed wheel), but the principle of area vs resistance to load also applies in axial loading (e.g. spokes). Resistance to buckling (slender columns) is directly related to modulus of elasticity (Euler's formula), so x-section of Al spoke would need to be 3x that of steel spoke to have similar resistance to buckling regardless of "boundary conditions" (i.e. end attachments). 

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_mechanics/columns/columns.cfm

[email protected] I got long-winded.
Bottom line= I fully agree with you & Zen that steel spokes are better!!


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

My winter bike, with 1 of 4 sets of Ksyriums I've owned. No issues with any of them. I'm 6', 185-195 pounds, and as you can see, I ride year round. Any testing will show better and poorer performers for the qualities sought. No wheel is perfect for everything, and aero is not the be-all end-all for everyone.

This reminds me of the "why do you hate Rivendell?" thread. My answer in that thread is the same as it is here: Thank God there are things you like and things that I like. We can each get the thing we want.


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

My Gerolsteiner Edition Specialized Tarmac on a set of Mavics Anniversarry edition retrofitted with ceramic bearings from speed ceramic

Its how I roll

Midwest Playa

Ride Em Hard


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

^^ Maybe you should not clamp your bike into the stand with your top tube...? Just a thought. Saw a guy destroy a frame doing that once.


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry for the double post on my Pics Thanks Zen Can you tell I am a rookie? lol my mechanic told me about that as well I am no longer doing it like this Thanks

What a Thread ha? definitely was a good topic

Its how I roll

Midwest Playa

Ride Em hard


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## latman (Apr 24, 2004)

I have a composites factory in Australia making Paddles and Kayaks, and have 2 frames to repair right now with crushed Top Tubes , one has the rear cable guide pushed right through the thin carbon tube , We mostly do cracked/snapped stays and top tube cracks from crashes and handlebar impact.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Zen Cyclery said:


> ^^ Maybe you should not clamp your bike into the stand with your top tube...? Just a thought. Saw a guy destroy a frame doing that once.


+1 

Usually the seat tube supports less pressure so some builders make it thinner to save weight and hence more fragile

Clamp it using the seatpost.

Some even have an old alu seatpost only for clamping purposes, and don't clamp the carbon seatposts.


Nice bike Playa, congrats !


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

As Playa is shamelessly using this thread to post his ES, I'll profit to do the same. 










I know, I know, it is a sacrilege to have Shimano on a Bianchi, but I prefer the Dura Ace to Campagnolo


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks Salsa Nice bike Bro

Man I am packed up ready to go as I said I am doing the 100 miles downhill cycling trip in Leadville Colorado this Saturday, and I cant wait theres 12 of us leaving Kansas Thursday and wil definitely put the Mavics to the ultimate test.

Lastly I really had fun chatting w you guys and I can respect everyones opinion, I will be looking to get a back up set of wheels in the near future, any suggestions is definitely welcome, I want something w maybe a little more bling and liteness than the Mavics I currently have I was thinking of some Zipps?? or should we open a new thread on this topic? hahahahha

Take care Everyone It's been a good one and I hope Nicopausan based on the info will make a sound and good decision in getting a set of wheels. Good Luck:thumbsup: 

Its How I roll:yesnod: 

Midwest Playa

Ride Em Hard!!!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Oldteen said:


> Not sure I totally agree that lateral loads are irrelevant to bike wheels (e.g. MTBer taco'ed wheel), but the principle of area vs resistance to load also applies in axial loading (e.g. spokes). Resistance to buckling (slender columns) is directly related to modulus of elasticity (Euler's formula), so x-section of Al spoke would need to be 3x that of steel spoke to have similar resistance to buckling regardless of "boundary conditions" (i.e. end attachments).


Tacoing is not caused by a lack of lateral stiffness in the spokes themselves. Spokes provide lateral support to a wheel via axial stiffness (modulus x area) and bracing angle. At any rate, the way that bladed spokes are aligned in a wheel makes them even more laterally flexible than round spokes. Buckling isn't an issue either, since all spokes but the R-Sys cannot support compressive loads.


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## Sweet Milk (Oct 13, 2004)

alias33 said:


> found some interesting pics



These images seem to indicate that these wheels were used in an extremely rough environment (think cyclocross) and/or were completely neglected (I'd guess a combination of the two). I am not surprised to see these had a catastrophic failure, but neither would I have been surprised to see any other wheelset in that condition fail.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Sweet Milk said:


> (think cyclocross)


Yet one more reason to go hand built. It would be easy to build a set of wheels lighter and cheeper than Ksyriums that can handle such abuse.


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

Zen Cyclery said:


> Yet one more reason to go hand built. It would be easy to build a set of wheels lighter and cheeper than Ksyriums that can handle such abuse.


Ksyriums are popular with cross people because of their durability.
ps - I have more photos if you want.


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## Pasta Cervelo (May 29, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> Don't kid yourself. Ksyriums offer no performance benefit over a set of hand built wheels costing a few $100 less.


While this may or may not be true ( i certainly don't know) for the average guy who wants a good set of wheels, more aero than standard and bomb-proof durable - the SLs are an easy good call. go to any race and most guys are riding them. mine have tons of miles and zero problems - very pleased


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Pasta Cervelo said:


> more aero than standard\


Then do not get Ksyriums because they did terribly in wind tunnel tests...


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

Pasta Cervelo said:


> go to any race and most guys are riding them.


Absolutely true. They are THE crit wheel.


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## nicopausan (Oct 30, 2007)

Guys, does somebody have experience with Neuvation wheels? Ceramic, is that worth it?
Thanks!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

dave2pvd said:


> Absolutely true. They are THE crit wheel.


The power of marketing...


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

When will this thread die...? Its comical. 
Here is my conclusion.
All the builders on the forum have their reasons to dislike Mavic.
Those who like them feel that we are incorrect with our critiques.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Zen Cyclery said:


> When will this thread die...? Its comical.
> Here is my conclusion.
> *All the builders on the forum have their reasons to dislike Mavic.*
> Those who like them feel that we are incorrect with our critiques.


Because they sell more sets than all of you together ?  

In all fairness, to each its own.

Some people like the Ksyriums, some like the custom builts.

Nothing wrong with that.

I have 2 sets of Ksyriums and 1 set of Cosmic Carbones. I use them on my Bianchi DA 10 speed.

I have too a set of Heliums and a set of Alu Cosmics, I use them on my steel bike with 9 speed gearing.

I also have 3 custom built sets


1 set of Open Pro/DA hubs 32h, have 700x25c Conti 4 seasons, I use that for rainy days/winter.

1 set of Open Pro/DA hubs 32h, I use it on my Cross Bike with 700x35c knobbly tyres.

1 set of Open Pro/105 hubs 32h, on my touring/commuting bike with Marathons 700x28c

I am plenty happy with all of them. 

The Ksyriums are not aero, nor super stiff, but they were not designed for that, they are lightweight wheels, great for hill climbing, light and easier to accelerate than the OP/DA or the Cosmics. I have them both with 12-27 cassettes.

The Cosmics are great for flat and fast rides. Aero and light enough. I have them with a 12-23 cassette.

The OP/DA are a more comfortable ride, more spokes, wider tyres. I have them with 12-25 cassettes and use them for long more relaxed rides.

ah and BTW this thread don't die, because we keep bumping it


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## nicopausan (Oct 30, 2007)

Well, let's end this discussion saying that I am very pleased with all your comments, and I decided to buy a Kysriums, I tested them and they were great, also I bought a Gipiemme set, great wheels strong and a little heavy, which is what I want.
Cheers!


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## KMan (Feb 3, 2004)

*what's-up with that seat???*

Dude,
What's-up with your seat angle....may want to get that looked into.





Salsa_Lover said:


> As Playa is shamelessly using this thread to post his ES, I'll profit
> to do the same.
> 
> 
> ...


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

*Well, at least some Shimano . . . .*



Salsa_Lover said:


> I know, I know, it is a sacrilege to have Shimano on a Bianchi, but I prefer the Dura Ace to Campagnolo


When it comes to cranksets, I'm with you, man. DA 7800 crank on my Bianchi Freccia Celeste. Gotta stay with Campy for the rest of it, though . . . .


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Seat angle is good.

I had pudendal nerves problem in the past. I had to stop cycling for a full season because of that.

The selle Italia SLC with its large cutout and "suspension" rails, solved the problem.

The suspension rails flatten the saddle anyway under weight. After a lot of experimentng This is the perfect position for me. works on flats and on climbs as well when the saddle is pointing up. 

No more perineal problems.

here you have a very good post from a fellow cyclist on another forum, he is also a PDH in mechanical engineering that supports my point.



> Regarding saddle angle and bicycle geometry: I reject the assertion that a seat should be level. I see this often given as advice from cycling shops and enthusiasts, etc., but it is bollocks when the physics are considered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

*question*



Lab Worker said:


> Thanks! I'd been asked to build a few XR-200's but was unsure what the stiffness or durability would be like and I had a bit of a sour taste in my mouth from the older nb-19 and nb-r rims which were pretty crap. I built this pair for myself to be able to do some stiffness testing and then ride testing of the rim.
> 
> The front hub is an Alchemy ELF, the rear is a Tune Mag180. Spokes are CX-Rays with SILS nipples, the front is 24x0 and the rear driveside 28x1 and 28x2 non-driveside.
> 
> Total weight was 1289g. The wheels ride really well and the XR-200 is a big improvement over the nb-19 etc.


Lab worker: I take your point re. trying to balance out rear ds/nd spoke tension, but given concerns with torsional tension on the rear drive side, could not the same goal be accomplished with 2x ds/3x nd? Is this rim stiff enough that the marginal decrease in lateral stiffness would pose no problem?

I've never seen 1x on rear ds, which would make me a bit nervous.

Are offcenter rear rims a better way to achieve more balanced rear spoke tension?


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

*its posts like this . . .*



Midwest Playa said:


> Sup Fella's
> 
> Good Evening and welcome to the weekend!!
> 
> ...


. . . that make me wonder whether the internet is for real, or make believe . . .


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

*yeah, but*



Lookbiker said:


> Nearly six thousand miles, no spoke breakage or need to be trued. 190 lbs on rough roads.
> 
> Doesn't prove that they are durable for everyone, just like random of photos of trashed wheels doesn't prove that they are junk.
> 
> Someday, Edge tubular hand-builts.


. . . you got that titanium frame to soak up all the bumps!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> The Ksyriums are not aero, nor super stiff, but they were not designed for that, they are lightweight wheels, great for hill climbing, light and easier to accelerate than the OP/DA or the Cosmics.


I have some Kinlin 30mm with CX-Rays and White Industries H1s, 18f and 24r, that weigh 1405g. That more than 200g under what the K-SLs weigh, and they are much better for aero.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

rruff said:


> I have some Kinlin 30mm with CX-Rays and White Industries H1s, 18f and 24r, that weigh 1405g. That more than 200g under what the K-SLs weigh, and they are much better for aero.


And cheaper.......and repairable......and........


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Salsa_Lover said:


> here you have a very good post from a fellow cyclist on another forum, he is also a PDH in mechanical engineering that supports my point.


But does he ride?

"The seat can either be (a) placed level to the ground, or (b) at a forward angle. If (a), then you rely on friction between your a$$ and seat, or on the wider part of the rear of the saddle to apply a forward force. Again, this is to counteract the force from your arms onto your torso. If (b) and the correct angle is found, you will not feel any friction, and your torso will feel a direct force (yellow arrow in the photo) from the seat. The key is to find the right angle such that you neither tend to slide forward nor backwards on your saddle, and without any sensation of friction between you and the seat. Further, you should feel your weight supported by your pelvic bones at the rear of the seat."

Saddles are designed to work properly when they are level. Yes, light pressure at the rear of the seat easily counteracts this small rearward force from the arms. If the saddle is properly positioned, then there is very little weight on the arms most of the time. More importantly, the saddle position effects how you use your pedaling muscles. In the power part of the stroke you want to be using mainly your glutes, with no tendency to slide forward or back. If the saddle is tilted forward you will need to use your quads more to stay in position.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

rruff said:


> But does he ride?
> 
> "The seat can either be (a) placed level to the ground, or (b) at a forward angle. If (a), then you rely on friction between your a$$ and seat, or on the wider part of the rear of the saddle to apply a forward force. Again, this is to counteract the force from your arms onto your torso. If (b) and the correct angle is found, you will not feel any friction, and your torso will feel a direct force (yellow arrow in the photo) from the seat. The key is to find the right angle such that you neither tend to slide forward nor backwards on your saddle, and without any sensation of friction between you and the seat. Further, you should feel your weight supported by your pelvic bones at the rear of the seat."
> 
> *Saddles are designed to work properly when they are level.* Yes, light pressure at the rear of the seat easily counteracts this small rearward force from the arms. If the saddle is properly positioned, then there is very little weight on the arms most of the time. More importantly, the saddle position effects how you use your pedaling muscles. In the power part of the stroke you want to be using mainly your glutes, with no tendency to slide forward or back. If the saddle is tilted forward you will need to use your quads more to stay in position.


Well, if you look at my pic, you'll see the saddle rails perfectly level.... It was not intentional BTW, I found the right tilt and it corresponded to fully horizontal rail positioning.


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

Okay, I'll comment again since this is a saddle angle thread now.

I actually sit on my seat, meaning I put weight on it via me bum. If it's angled dwon even a half of a degree, I'm sliding forward and end up constantly shoving myself back on the seat, and I end up with numb hands from having too much weigh on them.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

brujenn said:


> I actually sit on my seat, meaning I put weight on it via me bum. If it's angled dwon even a half of a degree, I'm sliding forward and end up constantly shoving myself back on the seat, and I end up with numb hands from having too much weigh on them.


Me too. I put one of my many other saddles on one of my bikes last week and it was angled down a tad (one of those micro-serrations adjustable seaposts). I did a whole ride where I had to keep pushing myself back up the saddle - and it was only a smidgeon tipped down (one serration). That was very annoying and uncomfortable. I then tipped it up by one micro-serration and now I have perfection - no more pushing me bum back up the hill. I don't care WHAT any engineer says - I know what works and doesn't work for me on a 2-hr bike ride.


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## CougarTrek (May 5, 2008)

The "engineer" failed to consider that changing the seat angle will change the force balance. Less upward force from the saddle means you need more upward force from your arms to balance your weight and keep your body (that now wants to slide down your saddle instead of off the back) up (and/or back to create more resistance against the saddle to keep you from sliding). You end up with the problem brujenn describes.

He also failed to consider the redistribution of forces at the elbow, which could conceivably remove even more of the already minute rearward force.

Easier on the arms/hands to be level. Less pressure on certain bits to be slightly angled down. Personally I go with a level saddle that is properly designed to relieve pressure in areas I don't want pressure on.

If you are really concerned about your arms (that aren't really at a shallow enough angle to have a huge rearward component of force) are going to push you off the back of the bike, then get a saddle where the back angles slightly upward. That would give a slightly forward force component without loosing the upward by tilting the whole saddle down. Personally, I've never had an issue with staying centered on a level saddle.

IMO the "engineer" created more problems than he solved (or at least worse ones). What's it take to get a "PDH" anyway?

This physicist, based on personal experience and the "laws of physics", keeps her saddle level... (pulling rank just seems so 3rd grade playground, but o well I'll play).


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

drewmcg said:


> Lab worker: I take your point re. trying to balance out rear ds/nd spoke tension, but given concerns with torsional tension on the rear drive side, could not the same goal be accomplished with 2x ds/3x nd? Is this rim stiff enough that the marginal decrease in lateral stiffness would pose no problem?
> 
> I've never seen 1x on rear ds, which would make me a bit nervous.
> 
> Are offcenter rear rims a better way to achieve more balanced rear spoke tension?


Drewmcg: Certainly the torsional tension is something to worry about. A similar spoke tension balance could be achieved with the 3x NDS / 2x DS but the small Tune NDS flange won't support 28x3 without the spokes touching each other.

My theory was that by lacing all heads-in on the DS I'd have a laterally stiffer wheel _and_ higher tension NDS spokes which would be able to help transmit drive loads and it seems to have worked - the wheel is very stiff laterally (despite the very light rim weight) and the wheel feels stiff in torsion. I once built a wheel with radial DS spokes (similar to a Mavic) just for curiosity and you could feel the wheel 'wind up' under load but with the 1x DS there is none of this type of behavior and the wheel feels very solid. Durability is an unknown but I wouldn't lace a customers wheel in this way. If you require _a lot_ of lateral stiffness then the XR-200 isn't the right rim.

Is the rim stiff enough that the decrease in lateral stiffness would be no problem? Yes, it is...I was pleasantly surprised with the stiffness of the XR-200. So long as you've got the right hub and number / type of spokes for your weight I don't think there is any advantage in building the wheel using the pattern I used.

Offset-drilling has some great advantages and it would be great to see a some good quality rims....a Kinlin XR-270 with an offset rear option would be great! Unfortunately the current crop of rims with offset drilling have other drawbacks which stop them from being really great rims - a classic case of needing to evaluate products by looking at their whole package rather than focusing on one element.

Tristan :thumbsup:


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

Lab Worker said:


> Drewmcg: Certainly the torsional tension is something to worry about. A similar spoke tension balance could be achieved with the 3x NDS / 2x DS but the small Tune NDS flange won't support 28x3 without the spokes touching each other.
> 
> My theory was that by lacing all heads-in on the DS I'd have a laterally stiffer wheel _and_ higher tension NDS spokes which would be able to help transmit drive loads and it seems to have worked - the wheel is very stiff laterally (despite the very light rim weight) and the wheel feels stiff in torsion. I once built a wheel with radial DS spokes (similar to a Mavic) just for curiosity and you could feel the wheel 'wind up' under load but with the 1x DS there is none of this type of behavior and the wheel feels very solid. Durability is an unknown but I wouldn't lace a customers wheel in this way. If you require _a lot_ of lateral stiffness then the XR-200 isn't the right rim.
> 
> ...


I have built quite a few wheels with 1x heads in and 2x or 3x on the non-drive depending on the spoke count. The difference in lateral stiffness between 1x heads in and 2x or 3x non-drive is significantly greater than 2x drive 3x non-drive. This is because having all of the drive side spokes with spoke heads on the inside of the flange essentially moves the drive flange out about 1.5mm since the spokes are all pulling from the outside of the flange. With 2x drive there are still half the spokes with heads facing out and half facing in. This causes the average spoke angle to be directly in line with the center of the flange. The slight angle advantage 2x has over 3x is so small you would be hard pressed to measure the difference in lateral stiffness. I tried and could find no measurable difference in 3x 3x versus 2x drive 3x non-drive. In terms of durability of using 1x heads in and 2x or 3x on the non-drive, you have to be carful with your hub selection. The hub needs to be able to transfer a good amount of torque to the non-drive flange. This lacing pattern does have more wind up than 2x or 3x drive. For a heavy rider this could cause problems with spoke fatigue. I have used this lacing pattern on tune hubs with good success but I am very hesitant to recommend or use this lacing pattern because of the increase in potential problems.
One observation I have made with offset rims is they do very little to increase lateral stiffness. Their only advantage is that they help balance spoke tension a little. Making your flange spacing 1mm wider will do more to increase lateral stiffness than using an offset rim. 

Steve


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## Midwest Playa (Sep 12, 2008)

Dang Salsa,

What Music are you playing when you are sitting on that angled down saddle? lol You must have big Guns like me with all the preasure you are putting on your arms and shoulders.lol

Hey but you know what? If its how you like to roll I cant hate you for it.

I just got back from that Century ride in Leadville Colorado 

I want to post a pics of my computer as to how fast I got on those Mavics Sl retrofitted w the ceramic speed bearings. I could have broken the 50 MPH barrier but I did not want to crap on my Assos I had another 80 miles to go.lol all I know is everyone was saying it was not fair. 

Its how I Roll

Midwest Playa

"Ride Em Hard"


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## drewmcg (Sep 19, 2005)

ssauter said:


> . . . I am very hesitant to recommend or use this lacing pattern because of the increase in potential problems.
> One observation I have made with offset rims is they do very little to increase lateral stiffness. Their only advantage is that they help balance spoke tension a little. Making your flange spacing 1mm wider will do more to increase lateral stiffness than using an offset rim.
> 
> Steve


So you cannot build 2x or 3x ds with head all in? Even on a non-Tune hub? Given your acknowledged hesitancy to recommend 1x heads in ds for most riders (which mirrors my concern), then off-center rear rims seem to be the best bet for equalizing spoke tension. And even if this does not increase lateral stiffness, having more equally tensioned spokes does SEEM to me to increase durability and long-term strength.

Also, what hubs do a better job transfering drive forces to the non-drive side than others? Wouldn't any metal hub do this approximately equally well (or poorly), assuming little or no play in the bearings?


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

drewmcg said:


> So you cannot build 2x or 3x ds with head all in? Even on a non-Tune hub? Given your acknowledged hesitancy to recommend 1x heads in ds for most riders (which mirrors my concern), then off-center rear rims seem to be the best bet for equalizing spoke tension. And even if this does not increase lateral stiffness, having more equally tensioned spokes does SEEM to me to increase durability and long-term strength.
> 
> Also, what hubs do a better job transfering drive forces to the non-drive side than others? Wouldn't any metal hub do this approximately equally well (or poorly), assuming little or no play in the bearings?


The problem with lacing 2x or 3x with all heads in is that the spoke has too severe of a bend when crossing its neighboring spoke. In both 2x and 3x the first cross is very near the hub flange which will result in sharp bends in the spoke increasing the chance of fatigue failures. Even with 1x heads in, I only use it with bladed spokes. If the bladed section extendes far enough down the spoke then the spoke will cross at the bladed section greatly reducing the bending of the spoke.
I would agree that off-center rims are the best way to even out spoke tension while maintaining good flange spacing.
How well a hub transfers torque to the non-drive depends on the hub body diameter and thickness. If you look at american classic hubs they will transfer torque very poorly because of their small diameter hub body. A modern 10spd shimano hub will do a very good job of transfering torque to the non-drive since it has a larger diameter hub body that is relatively thick compared to the AC. 

Steve


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

ssauter said:


> One observation I have made with offset rims is they do very little to increase lateral stiffness.


They in fact decrease the lateral stiffness a little, but they are good for increasing the NDS tension, which is a bigger problem on most rim/hub combos. An offset rear rim isn't a bad concept, but all the ones I know of have had issues with cracking on the DS, because the spokes pull on the side of the rim rather than the top. To "fix" this you'd need to make the wall thicker and heavier, which negates some of the potential benefit.

BTW... I keep wondering when they are going to go to 135mm on road bikes... it's over due IMO.


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## ssauter (Aug 1, 2007)

BTW... I keep wondering when they are going to go to 135mm on road bikes... it's over due IMO.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree! The bike industry needs to move to 135mm for road bikes. 

Steve


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

rruff said:


> BTW... I keep wondering when they are going to go to 135mm on road bikes... it's over due IMO.


When we move to disc brakes


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