# Zwift (Virtual) Racing - It's getting kinda serious...



## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I was just reading this interview over on ZwiftBlog.com

Interview with the CEO of Cycligent
Interview with Frank Garcia of Cycligent Virtual Rankings - ZwiftBlog

Overview of CVR on ZwiftBlog
ZwiftRankings.com (Cycligent Virtual Rankings) beta launch - ZwiftBlog

As anyone who has ever done a group ride or race in Zwift knows, watts per kilogram is not an ideal means of categorizing riders. For one, it's susceptible to cheating, and two, it very inconsistent in that affects hills differently than it affects flat courses. You also probably know that there are some seriously fast riders in Zwift, right up to pro level. 

For those who haven't experienced it, Zwiftblog has an interesting write up called 'Why am I getting beat by people with a lower W/kg'.
Why am I getting beat by people with lower w/kg? - ZwiftBlog

It seems some folks are getting serious about developing a ranking system that takes many factors into account. After a three event 'rookie' period, it ranks you in three separate categories. "Flat", "Climbing", and "Flat and Climbing". 

It's called Cycligent Virtual Ranking Systems.

It's not in use by all Zwift races yet, but some of the results are ZwiftRankings.com are using it. It's pretty interesting.

Homepage (ZwiftRankings.com)
Cycligent Virtual Rankings

Overview
Cycligent Virtual Rankings


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Virtual "racing" is like playing with yourself.
If you want to get "Serious", pin a number on, line up, and get your rear end kicked.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Mr Grumpy,

Have you ever tried a Zwift race? I'm just curious.

I've heard similar comments from people who were humbled the first time they joined a race. The first time I rode in one I rode about 30 watts above my FTP for over an hour. I have never pushed myself that hard on a bike outside, even on a really long hard climb.

I have exactly ZERO interest in lining up with a bunch of CAT 5's and age groupers outdoors. NONE. But racing in Zwift is fun, and it's HARD, and I don't have to worry about weather, or idiots clipping a wheel, or overcooking a turn. 

MMsRepBike,

I think that within the restriction of using a power trainer or real power meter (i.e. vritual "ZPower" would normally exclude you from most race results), the body weight setting in Zwift is the only real form of cheating. This is a tricky one to overcome.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Mr Grumpy,
> 
> Have you ever tried a Zwift race? I'm just curious.
> 
> ...


You can join a group ride that's above your ability and get the exact same thing you are talking about in a "race" on that site.

And no, that's not the only form of cheating, far from.

First I can change my weight, as mentioned, and as long as I'm just under 5.0w/kg there's nothing anyone will do or can do.

Second I can change my air pressure if I'm riding a wheel on trainer to skew their fake z-power thing in my favor. Do a little search of people who used wheel on trainers than switched to a Neo. You'll find that they all said the exact same "effort" on the game became much harder on the Neo.

Third I can change the trainer difficulty, and in reality I can just shut it off. Like weight, there's no stopping this. What this does is eliminate any and all gradients from affecting me. As you go up the 2% or whatever grade and have to switch gears, I don't. I stay virtually on flat ground due to my trainer difficulty setting.

I haven't even started to get into scripting. Nor have I even mentioned botting. Both exist and are growing. Know what botting or scripting is? Maybe you should look into online competitive gaming before making your opinions about there being only one way to cheat and that it's tricky to overcome. Come on now, you should be smarter than that.


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## zephxiii (Nov 22, 2013)

I thought it was odd they even have watts/kg in a virtual world where the weight is set by the user. With that much potential for incorrectness I would have just based everything off power. Seems like that would keep things even. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

zephxiii said:


> I thought it was odd they even have watts/kg in a virtual world where the weight is set by the user. With that much potential for incorrectness I would have just based everything off power. Seems like that would keep things even.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Not even close.

Going up a 5% grade, if one guy is 130lbs and the other is 200lbs and both are doing 300 watts, the 130lb guy is going to be much faster.

There's no way to stop the cheating.

Think of it like this: There's already lots of online competitive games with identical input devices. With shooting games or whatever, everyone has the same equipment, same input data. However they cannot stop the cheating in these games, no matter how sophisticated they get. Just look into Overwatch or CSGo cheating to learn a bit about how it's done. Now if a giant company like that can't stop cheating with everyone on the exact same input devices, how is Zwift going to manage, being a tiny company, and having everyone on different input devices?


What Zwift did to establish their Z-Power curves was to buy every single trainer on the market. Yes, they bought and tested every one of them themselves, they have them all still. Each and every trainer has it's own Z-Power curve. Well... what if I tell the game I'm riding an Elite trainer when really I'm riding a Tacx trainer? What then? The power curves could be very different between the machines. So the elite could be 20mph at 3w/kg, but the Tacx could be 22mph at 3w/kg. How are you going to stop that? How are you going to verify what dumb trainer people have?


And then what if you're using a power meter like a stages or whatever? I can very easily offset the zero offsetting (what many call calibration) of the unit. How are you going to prove if it's offset correctly?


And you can change tire sizes too on dumb trainers. Change their air pressure, all kinds of things.


There's no way to stop cheating in Zwift, it's not possible outside of a physically controlled location. If you want to race, fine, just don't think it's real, it's not even close.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Keep in mind that the racing and ranking systems are not done by the game developers. This is all work that is done by third parties. The only real development Zwift has done in this regard is to create the "Event Module" system (staged start, rider tracking, leader flagging, etc..), and some back end work to allow third parties to access ride data to track the races.

Nathan Guerra does live commentary of some if the bigger races.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Going up a 5% grade, if one guy is 130lbs and the other is 200lbs and both are doing 300 watts, the 130lb guy is going to be much faster.
> 
> ...





MMsRepBike said:


> Anyone who takes racing seriously on Zwift and/or the results of such is a moron




I get it. You don't like it. It's fine, you don't have to (although I'd appreciate leaving the name calling out of it)

If you had bothered to read some of what I linked, you would know that some of the methods of cheating you mentioned don't apply to the higher level races. Some of them even require you to send power files from outdoor rides before they will put you on the leaderboards. And the very point of the CVR system I referred to in my first post is intended to more accurately rank people so they can't sandbag. And let's not pretend sandbagging doesn't happen in outdoor races. We all know it does.

I'm not saying the system is perfect. Far from it. I don't think anyone is going to be awarding any prize money based on these rides. It's just a ton of fun and an extremely good workout. 

I'm not trying to convince anyone who doesn't like virtual riding/racing/training that they should do it. It's not for everyone. It's not going to replace outdoor racing. But for those like me, who do enjoy it, I just wanted to share that some progress has been made in regards to improving the accuracy and integrity of the system.

Edit: Really, all I'm trying to point out is that the biggest problem with Zwift group rides and races (ranking/grading riders so they participate in the right events) is being worked on. Don't be so damned defensive. If you don't like Zwift, just move on and ignore this thread.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Keep in mind that the racing and ranking systems are not done by the game developers. This is all work that is done by third parties. The only real development Zwift has done in this regard is to create the "Event Module" system (staged start, rider tracking, leader flagging, etc..), and some back end work to allow third parties to access ride data to track the races.


Which further proves my point.

If you look back to the inception, you will see plenty of official comments from Zwift. They recognize the want/desire to have racing on Zwift and they know there's a lot of cheating. They said, long back now, that they'll do everything they can to stop it or prevent it so that there can be fair racing. 

They quickly threw in the towel.

The 5.0w/kg number I posted earlier isn't from Zwift, Zwift doesn't care or as you stated they don't do anything. It's from Zwiftpower, a third party company making leaderboards for racing and group rides and such. They'll disqualify you if you're over 5.0w/kg unless you can back up your data with Strava data (also easily fudged, so that's a poor way to prove anything). If you're under 5.0w/kg average though for the race they won't even look at you unless you're winning 90% of the races you enter.

So I'm fully aware that all of the policing is done by third party companies and that Zwift hasn't even attempted to get involved with it. If you ask me, they never will. If they're smart, they never will. If they're smart, the only thing they'll get involved with is local events where they provide the trainers and equipment and they do all of the settings themselves. If someone is riding at home, there's zero way of stopping them from cheating.



> I'm not trying to convince anyone who doesn't like virtual riding/racing/training that they should do it. It's not for everyone. It's not going to replace outdoor racing. But for those like me, who do enjoy it, I just wanted to share that some progress has been made in regards to improving the accuracy and integrity of the system.


And I'm not trying to convince anyone not to do it. Like I said, if you want to do it, great, just don't think it's real.

And no, no progress has been made to improve the integrity of the system, I think I've been quite clear about that. This system will never have integrity. If you think those leaderboards are in any way real, you need a reality check.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Jeebus, 

Why are you expending so much energy on this?


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Which further proves my point.
> 
> If you look back to the inception, you will see plenty of official comments from Zwift. They recognize the want/desire to have racing on Zwift and they know there's a lot of cheating. They said, long back now, that they'll do everything they can to stop it or prevent it so that there can be fair racing.
> 
> ...


MMS, you really seem to hate Zwift. Did someone from Zwift run off off with your wife or steal your identity? Its just a game/training tool. Migen says he finds it fun and you call him a moron


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Zwift is great. Zwift is fun. It's a great training tool. I do races, I do group rides, I do workouts, I just ride around sometimes. 

I have nothing against Zwift.

Zwift racing is not real though, it's full of cheaters and it will never be fair. It's a joke to be honest. It's totally unnecessary, as I mentioned you can race just fine with group rides, you don't need a fake "race" moniker.

Anyone who takes the races seriously needs a wake up call. Cheaters ruin competitive games if not dealt with, and there's zero way to deal with them here. So there's zero way this will ever be a real competitive online game. That simple. 

Stop trying to make Zwift racing seem legit, it's not and it will never be.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

FWIW, I used to host/admin GTR and Battlefield servers. While there is most likely no way to level the playing field as far as equipment, it would be possible to prevent users from joining servers based on software variances, if files have been altered. This software check was in place for online GTR races, where if a user joined a server with a car file which differed from that on the server (GTR has a huge modification community for both cars and tracks) the user received a system message, and not allowed to join. 

Environment requirements, such as min weight, fixed trainer difficulty, etc. could also be set. However in order to implement, they may have to move to a multiple/private server model (something I think they should have done from the beginning), or add some sort of "join event" option (if not already there) at login added, for user created events, allowing for parameter settings, if the races are to still exist on the main Zwift server.

Or, they could lock it down where in order to join a race, you "have to have" trainer "X", or "Y", on top of doing file checks, and setting weight, and or difficulty minimums. The Zwift software already knows the trainer model.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Thankfully there's absolutely no way to cheat in real world races!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

fruity


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> Zwift is great. Zwift is fun. It's a great training tool. I do races, I do group rides, I do workouts, I just ride around sometimes.
> 
> I have nothing against Zwift.
> 
> ...


I've been Zwifting since Beta and racing and agree 100% .. hell Zwift is like polar opposite for me even.. Climb ok and suck on the flats.. in RL I can't climb out a paper bag.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

The closest I come to virtual "racing" is on calibrated Computrainer races. You get weighed in before the event (total bike/shoes/person), so there can be no cheating. The calibrated Computrainers are supplied by a local bike shop and 8 people race at one time. All data is piped into a computer, and is shown on a large screen TV, so you know how far ahead, or behind you are everyone else. Courses can be set flat, or hilly, with drafting on, or off. Even with the machines being calibrated, sometimes you get a heavy machine, so it's still "pretend" racing.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

colnagoG60 said:


> or add some sort of "join event" option (if not already there) at login added, for user created events, allowing for parameter settings, if the races are to still exist on the main Zwift server.


They added this very thing over the summer. It's called the "Event Module". You use the 'Mobile Link' app to sign up for an event, then when you log into the game you have a 'Join Event' button that puts you on a trainer at the starting line so you can spin until the start time, at which time all hell breaks loose.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Mr Grumpy,
> 
> Have you ever tried a Zwift race? I'm just curious.


I have. They're a joke. Very unlike any real-life riding in regards to the dynamics of a group, the aero-benefits, and of course the out and out cheating (both intentional and not due to absurd power/trainer correlations).


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Virtual "racing" is like playing with yourself.
> If you want to get "Serious", pin a number on, line up, and get your rear end kicked.


This. So much this. Some of these deluded zwifters have absolutely no idea what a real race is like and never will because they think a video game gives them a clue.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> They added this very thing over the summer. It's called the "Event Module". You use the 'Mobile Link' app to sign up for an event, then when you log into the game you have a 'Join Event' button that puts you on a trainer at the starting line so you can spin until the start time, at which time all hell breaks loose.


I thought it was available...forgot about the trainer startup area. The choice is just not in the main screen, where you select which route/workout. Does the event creator get to set other game variables (e.g. - min weight/height, "no z-power", no boosts, trainer diff, etc)?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

The event creator has parameters they can select, including limiting the type of bikes used, the intended W/Kg category (A/B/C/D/E - All), whether Z-Power (virtual power - sketchy stuff) is allowed, if power-ups are usable, the course/map, whether it's time elapsed, laps completed, or distance completed. There is also a description area made available to the users explaining these parameters, and any other useful information. 

You can preview the events on this webpage, but the only way to sign up is via the "Mobile Link" app (as far as I know).

Zwift | Join the Pack.

Note that the majority of the events are group rides, and not actual competitive races. Some the group rides designate max W/kg thresholds (i.e. Sub2, Sub3, etc... ) so they appeal to casual riders. Some are more friendly than others. Anything intended for A/B riders is going to rip the lungs out of most people.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Zwift is great. Zwift is fun. It's a great training tool. I do races, I do group rides, I do workouts, I just ride around sometimes.
> 
> I have nothing against Zwift.
> 
> ...


You are over exaggerating this issues with cheating, to the level of hyperbole. Certainly there are cheaters, and most of them are easily identified and removed from the results. Most races don't allow ZPower in the results, so hardware stuff doesn't really apply. HR is required as well.

No one is trying to legitimize this to the point of it being some kind of officially sanctioned event. It's just a bunch of people having fun on their bike. 

I'm kind of surprised that you are so down on it considering the popularity of it on facebook and other social media sites. There are organized Zwift race teams with thousands of members around the world. If cheating were has bad as you are trying to make it out to be, people wouldn't be doing it.

Here is one groups website. They are very well organized, and have 12-13 scheduled rides weekly, organized training rides with training plans, an in-game and real-world Kit you can buy, etc...
teamodz - TeamODZ

Companies are throwing money behind it. Castelli is one company that sponsors at least one ride series that I'm aware of.


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## Sumguy1 (Apr 5, 2008)

It seems pple are comparing virtual racing with real racing. They need to stop doing that, both "sides".


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Sumguy1 said:


> It seems pple are comparing virtual racing with real racing. They need to stop doing that, both "sides".


I don't know who you are referring to. I have never given any correlation between Zwift (or virtual racing) and actually riding in an outdoor race.

I'm not on any 'side'. I didn't start this thread to have some inane debate about the viability of Zwift racing.

All I wanted to do was let those interested know that some of the 'issues' that have plagued group rides and racing (mainly how riders are categorized pre-ride) is being addressed. Companies are putting development and support resources behind it. And it's only going to get better.

Outdoor racing is great. I'm not advocating riding in Zwift instead of your local crit. But for those who live in cold, wet, dark places, it is a great training tool to prepare for it, and perhaps get an advantage over those who are sitting on their couches all winter. More importantly, it's just a lot of fun. A hell of a lot more fun than just grinding out intervals and winter base miles. It's a great way to get in shape when outside riding isn't available to you.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

You sure are sounding more and more like a shill for them.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> You sure are sounding more and more like a shill for them.



If you are implying that I work for them, or have some kind of vested interest, you are dead wrong. I'm just a paying user like everyone else.

You sound like someone who feels threatened by this though. Is this somehow going to negatively affect you?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> Thankfully there's absolutely no way to cheat in real world races!


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Been in Zwift since the Beta, and the racing is broke and probably will remain so as Zwift is more concerned with user numbers than booting cheaters. Look at how they have hidden the flag feature, and doesn't do much. The various 3rd party tools are cludges and does little to control fliers during the race, and Zwift does not allow you to exclude or filter Zpower users from your race. You can "remove" some of them later from results few of the racers bother looking at, but at that point the cheaters have got their "glory". Some people REALLY like being fake fast online. 

So no, the Zwift racing is not legit- way too much weight doping, way too many magically set up "smart" trainers and too many "its just a game" people who feel everyone else is cheating so they have to as well- its basically the 2002 TdF. 

That said, if it makes you ride harder keep doing it. Just don't think its even remotely the same as pinning a number on.


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

I've done about 15 rides on Zwift with my Kickr Snap over the past few months; did my first race a few days ago. Other than watching bikes and riders disappear into the distance LOL the comparison to real racing just isn't there. I will never bury myself on the trainer like I did back in the day chasing down another rider or the disappearing peloton. I've never noticed much draft effect on Zwift, except in a massive group, so there wasn't much benefit to sitting on a wheel.

I didn't particularly enjoy it, it seeemd like everyone was riding at or above their FTP level, so more like a cyclocross race than a road race. About time I started to lose interest, some glitch made all the other riders disappear and I was riding alone on the course, so I considered that a win.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

The draft effect in Zwift is 25% if you within 1 meter.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Migen21 said:


>


No, not serious. The logic of this thread by some is that because there is cheating in Zwift, it's not to be taken seriously. That's pretty laughable in a sport plagued by cheating.

I have never used Zwift but I have ridden many miles indoors on rollers. Anything that can make that time go by quicker & more enjoyably is a good thing. If some choose to cheat, why would I care? There's cheating on Strava too.... same goes for the TDF.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

hfc said:


> I've done about 15 rides on Zwift with my Kickr Snap over the past few months; did my first race a few days ago. Other than watching bikes and riders disappear into the distance LOL the comparison to real racing just isn't there. I will never bury myself on the trainer like I did back in the day chasing down another rider or the disappearing peloton. I've never noticed much draft effect on Zwift, except in a massive group, so there wasn't much benefit to sitting on a wheel.
> 
> I didn't particularly enjoy it, it seeemd like everyone was riding at or above their FTP level, so more like a cyclocross race than a road race. About time I started to lose interest, some glitch made all the other riders disappear and I was riding alone on the course, so I considered that a win.


I notice a draft benefit when behind just one rider however its usually when above 35Kph. Curious as to where you have your trainer difficulty set if people are pulling away from you. I have my "New" Kickr set at far right (I believe that is 100%) and at the base of hills which are 5% or more, I typically pull away slightly from people I have been riding with. I'm thinking its the increased resistance of the steeper grade which allows me to maintain speed by putting down more power at same RPM. 

Conversely, I hate coming off a downhill at a certain speed, in a fairly tall gear, keeping the same cadence but continually lose speed on the flat. It forces me to upshift more than "in real life", in order to maintain comparable speeds.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

With cheat codes, anyone can win a race.


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## floralagator (Jun 18, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Have you ever tried a Zwift race? I'm just curious.
> 
> ......_The first time I rode in one I rode about 30 watts above my FTP for over an hour._ I have never pushed myself that hard on a bike outside, even on a really long hard climb......


????? Think maybe your FTP number might have been wrong ???
Test it often? Or just a (bad) guess?


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> If you are implying that I work for them, or have some kind of vested interest, you are dead wrong. I'm just a paying user like everyone else.
> 
> You sound like someone who feels threatened by this though. Is this somehow going to negatively affect you?


no one is disagreeing with it's usefulness... hell my area is being slammed by rain so it's working for me. The argument is saying the "racing is real".. frankly it's not. Maybe it's "serious?" seriously flawed maybe... hell I fun doing it too, get a podium from time to time = so what.


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## zephxiii (Nov 22, 2013)

I'd say it's just supposed to be good motivation/entertainment to hit it hard on the trainer so no one should be taking it seriously. That's the real purpose of Zwift. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

spdntrxi said:


> no one is disagreeing with it's usefulness... hell my area is being slammed by rain so it's working for me. The argument is saying the "racing is real".. frankly it's not. Maybe it's "serious?" seriously flawed maybe... hell I fun doing it too, get a podium from time to time = so what.


I don't believe me, or anyone else said anything about it being real... maybe read my posts again? I state several times why I started this thread. It has nothing to do with virtual racing being 'real'.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

floralagator said:


> ????? Think maybe your FTP number might have been wrong ???
> Test it often? Or just a (bad) guess?


Obviously, although after discussing it with a professional coach, he told me that it's fairly common for people to ride above their training threshold in a competitive situation, and not be able to replicate that level of effort in a standard FTP test.

I was just trying to point out that, at least for me, the competition of virtual racing is a fun way to get some winter training in.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> No, not serious. The logic of this thread by some is that because there is cheating in Zwift, it's not to be taken seriously. That's pretty laughable in a sport plagued by cheating.
> 
> I have never used Zwift but I have ridden many miles indoors on rollers. Anything that can make that time go by quicker & more enjoyably is a good thing. If some choose to cheat, why would I care? There's cheating on Strava too.... same goes for the TDF.


Yea, sorry, after re-reading it with my sarcasm detector turned on, I realized what you were saying. I was actually about to post the same thing.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Obviously, although after discussing it with a professional coach, he told me that it's fairly common for people to ride above their training threshold in a competitive situation, and not be able to replicate that level of effort in a standard FTP test.
> 
> I was just trying to point out that, at least for me, the competition of virtual racing is a fun way to get some winter training in.



Last Zwift race I did gave me a new FTP number on there. My 20 minute power was the best recorded, I wasn't even aware it was doing that. The 20 minute power went up 11 watts for me. I won my category in that race. It hurt a lot and it's the overall most power I've put out on Zwift yet.

I think that situation is fairly common when people go all out in a Zwift race or group ride.

But like all Zwift stuff, I keep it private on Strava to be polite and could care less about being excluded from the third party leaderboards.


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> Keep in mind that the racing and ranking systems are not done by the game developers. This is all work that is done by third parties. The only real development Zwift has done in this regard is to create the "Event Module" system (staged start, rider tracking, leader flagging, etc..), and some back end work to allow third parties to access ride data to track the races.
> 
> Nathan Guerra does live commentary of some if the bigger races.


That is the saddest thing I have ever seen.


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## colnagoG60 (Jun 27, 2013)

El Scorcho said:


> That is the saddest thing I have ever seen.


It can't be any worse than people watching E-League, and that whole movement.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

El Scorcho said:


> That is the saddest thing I have ever seen.


The "commentary" is a head scratcher. I really don't get the whole watching feature on Zwift either. I've never had the desire to watch a fake person (other than me) ride on a virtual course.


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## zephxiii (Nov 22, 2013)

Watch feature is useful for testing it on different machines (performance analysis) without needing sensors etc. I've used it quite a bit just for that. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

zephxiii said:


> Watch feature is useful for testing it on different machines (performance analysis) without needing sensors etc. I've used it quite a bit just for that.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


OK, I'll buy that but I'm not sure that was the reason they added that feature. I'm getting a bit creeped out thinking folks are watching me


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Some of you dudes gotta let this go..


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## MerlinMan (Mar 11, 2002)

Zwift racing is evolving. The first live race was held in Virginia this weekend. Eric Minn, Zwift ceo I believe, has stated that private events in the event module are in the pipeline. This means that race organizers can host races that only allow verified riders and certain trainers to compete online.

Yes, it is a work in progress. The future of online racing will reach well beyond what many imagine. Dedicated Zwift spin bikes(not just rear trainers) are in the works as well.

I race Mtb, road, and Zwift. They each are their own discipline.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Racing in a video game is not a discipline, nor is it racing. 

It's a video game.


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## MerlinMan (Mar 11, 2002)

Leah Thorvilson just received a pro contract from Canyon-Sram. The team used Zwift Acadamy to find new pro talent. Strange sort of "video game".

Scottie Weiss, 2 X world champion, won the first live race event in Virginia. Jeremiah Bishop was competing there as well. I guess there are many pro riders you need to inform that they are only involved with a video game, and that it is not racing.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> ... nor is it racing.


I'm going out on a limb here and guess that you've never tried Zwift, let alone entered a Zwift race?

While you are certainly welcome to have an opinion about things you know very little about and have zero experience with, I'm also welcome to discount that opinion for lack of credibility.


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## MerlinMan (Mar 11, 2002)

Migen21, let them be the last to figure it out. Their loss. 

When I got on the beta 18 months ago, I knew that this software would change the cycling industry. And it has. Tacx cannot keep up with demand for the Neo trainer, and CycleOps is behind on Hammer orders.

Every major bike manufacturer is trying to find ways to get involved with zwift, just like Strava has offered free months on Zwift for joining Strava premium. Even though many of these manufacturers are not involved with indoor training, they want to get on board and they are doing it.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

MerlinMan said:


> Leah Thorvilson just received a pro contract from Canyon-Sram. The team used Zwift Acadamy to find new pro talent. Strange sort of "video game".
> 
> Scottie Weiss, 2 X world champion, won the first live race event in Virginia. Jeremiah Bishop was competing there as well. I guess there are many pro riders you need to inform that they are only involved with a video game, and that it is not racing.


Nothing you've said addresses what I said. It just gives two examples of people riding their bike in a video game.

Scottie is a real bike racer, and I've raced him in real bike races in which you're not in your living room. And him playing Zwift doesn't negate the "video game in your living room" actuality. And he's a gran-fondo world champion, which is not the same thing. He's a very good rider. He's a past elite national champion-level rider. He is not a world-class or world champion rider. And he's not relevant to the discussion.

Think closely about your last sentence for a second: I need to inform pro riders that they're not racing a video game. Do I really? Is their professional contract contingent upon their video game palmares, or their actual race results? Marinate on that a bit and get back to me about pros and their racing versus their riding in their basements on Zwift.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> I'm going out on a limb here and guess that you've never tried Zwift, let alone entered a Zwift race?
> 
> While you are certainly welcome to have an opinion about things you know very little about and have zero experience with, I'm also welcome to discount that opinion for lack of credibility.


I've used Zwift a bit over the last two winters when outside conditions necessitated so and I've lined up for the "ZTR A races" a dozen plus times. It's a workout on my rollers in my basement. It is not, in any sense of the word, a real bike race. I've even been "dropped" a few times from the zwift "races", despite being a nationally competitive cat 1 who rarely gets dropped in real races. Yet still nothing to do with an actual bike race. 

So now that your foot is pretty well lodged in your mouth, I'll retort: have you ever done a real bike race? What about zwift is the same?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

MerlinMan said:


> Migen21, let them be the last to figure it out. Their loss.


I actually race bikes, so how is anything that pertains to Zwift a loss? It's almost spring and time for Zwift's annual participation nose-dive. A lot of us are losing out, huh?

It's really comical to see a few delusional Zwift heros emerge from their basements after a winter of "ripping up the Zwift races" and get promptly shelled on the first real effort of the day. They come around in a few weeks of actual group and race efforts, but still, it's funny the initial reactions.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

You are showing your lack of knoweldge of the platform.

Zwift isn't a US only thing - In fact in my experience there are a lot more participants from outside of the US than there are inside - While participation may go down some as the northern hemisphere spring arrives, it's fall in the southern hemisphere, and South America, Africa and New Zealand and Austrailia are very well represented.

I would be interested in seeing you jump on Zwift and 'bury' some of those A guys - I think you'd be suprised at how strong racers are - There are quite a few professional rides, as well as strong Cat 1/2 on there - they are fairly well known and more and more of them are showing up on ZwiftPower.com and ZwiftRankings.com.

And I guess you missed Matthew Hayman training for six weeks in Zwift just prior to winning Paris-Roubaix last year?


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

I like Zwift, it's better than the Spinervals videos I used to use and it has definitely helped in keeping me pedaling during the winter. I know a couple of pros who use it as well and I get a kick out of being able to see how I (woefully) match up on equal terms, but that's as far as I go with it. 

Personally, I find the whole racing aspect a bit silly given some of the blatant hacking I witness on there. As a former hardcore Counter-strike player, I view it with the same 'whatever' goggles; I'm not being paid and it's just a video game.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> You are showing your lack of knoweldge of the platform.
> 
> Zwift isn't a US only thing - In fact in my experience there are a lot more participants from outside of the US than there are inside - While participation may go down some as the northern hemisphere spring arrives, it's fall in the southern hemisphere, and South America, Africa and New Zealand and Austrailia are very well represented.
> 
> ...


In what way am I showing a lack of knowledge? At what point did I address anything internationally related? You're just peddling bullshit now that you can't fall back on your "arguing what you don't know" spill. 

I see you didn't answer my question about real racing. TELLING. 

What are you talking about burying anything? I said I actually got dropped in Zwift (and once on a downhill!!), which rarely happens in real races. Surprised by how strong pros and cat 1/2s are? On a video game? WTF would I do that when I can actually race them in a real race that they've been training for? 

No, I didn't miss it. But hey, GREAT point! He got in a good six weeks of training so that he could ride in a *real race. 

*Nice example. 

Go back and read my post a few times before you respond. You seem to enjoy making up completely unrelated tangents and using them to ruin your own weak arguments. Or maybe actually answer some of the questions I'm positing since I've done you the common courtesy of answering yours.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Wetworks said:


> I like Zwift, it's better than the Spinervals videos


Wait, better than Coach Troy?!!


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

pedalbiker said:


> Wait, better than Coach Troy?!!


Lol, gimme a break. As a newbie it offered me the lowest 'cost of entry' at the time. Now I'm all cool and sh!t with a real laptop, trainer and screen, ready to pwn n00bs on virtual streets.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Wow, so many questions... In general is it necessary to be such a dick when you race or is that optional? Some people like Zwift and they like the racing aspect of it. Are actual outdoor racers all so thin-skinned that they have to post multiple times on a Zwift thread to make sure that no one takes it seriously and everyone understands how much more serious racing outdoors is?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> Wow, so many questions... In general is it necessary to be such a dick when you race or is that optional? Some people like Zwift and they like the racing aspect of it. Are actual outdoor racers all so thin-skinned that they have to post multiple times on a Zwift thread to make sure that no one takes it seriously and everyone understands how much more serious racing outdoors is?


Oh, I see you don't understand how a message board works. 

You see generally, on a message board, there's some type of question or assertion to which replies are expected and given. Discourse ensues and the board is populated with a number of discussions that others read and choose to participate in or not. 

You have chosen to participate, yet your comments suggest a slight ineptitude at understanding said participation. So, I hope this clears it up for you a bit and you can carry on enjoying the discussion.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

So not a requirement, it's a choice. Got it.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I've done exactly one Zwift race (they rarely line up with my schedule or my intentions for a given day). I've done more than a couple non-virtualized races.

The Zwift "race" was a very solid workout, but it didn't compare to an actual race. I could bury my head in the effort and not worry about crashing anyone. I didn't have to worry about bike handling skills at all. The pavement never changes from smooth. There's not a surge out of every turn as riders with varying corning abilities open and close gaps. I didn't have to worry about avoiding being guttered in a sprint. No wind. The rain doesn't seem to get me wet or cold. I could go on, but you get the point. The vast majority of the dynamics that apply in the real world are non-players. Basically everything boils down to w/kg (mainly FTP) and the occasional peak power spike. That's racing in the context of this virtual world, but it isn't the same as an actual road race.

Pro riders join up mainly because their teams demand social media presence and it helps kill trainer hours. It provides stimulus that they might not otherwise get on the trainer, but very, very few take it "seriously"- especially when getting pipped at the line by a Cat6 from Ohio.

Manufacturers got on board because they believe it may help move a few units. Having someone riding around on a virtual representation of their bike with a kit pimping their brand to a worldwide, targeted audience for next to nothing? That's a no brainer.

Zwift is a quantum leap forward in indoor training, and it's the driving force in the sector of the industry. No question. It also can lead to off-season peaking if you don't watch it, which can ruin the early part of the season (ask me how I know). I'm a huge fan, and I don't use the vast majority of the social networking functionality of the platform (I have friends that do, though). Even Richmond beats the hell out of another rotation of my sizeable WCP DVD collection.

Zwift racing is it's own thing, just like Goldsprints are. It's a form of competition. However, nobody in their right mind would claim Goldsprints are the same thing as track racing- it's not meant to be.

Great strides have been made to weed out the cheaters in everyday Zwift racing, but there's a lot of them still in there. Unless you tied in smart scales, segregated the methods of power measurement/trainer styles, and put some serious analytics in there to catch data tampering, you are going to have that sort of thing. Sorry. You can do it for small events, but at the end of the day it matters less than an office park crit in Southern California. There's no real risk. It's all ones and zeroes. WADA isn't going to assume oversight. It's forgotten tomorrow (or in the next hour) when the next race happens.

If it makes you happy, do it until your garage drain overflows with sweat and your heart explodes. I prefer the real world, with all of its dynamics and variability. As soon as the ice and snow clear from the pavement (and probably a week or two before), I'll abandon Zwift again for six months or so. Dust will coat my trainer until I either break my collarbone again or winter returns. I don't get enthusiastic about returning to the trainer. Zwift just makes it more bearable.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

Alaska Mike said:


> If it makes you happy, do it until your garage drain overflows with sweat and your heart explodes. I prefer the real world, with all of its dynamics and variability. As soon as the ice and snow clear from the pavement (and probably a week or two before), I'll abandon Zwift again for six months or so. Dust will coat my trainer until I either break my collarbone again or winter returns. I don't get enthusiastic about returning to the trainer. Zwift just makes it more bearable.


I couldn't agree more. I've done Zwift this winter and "enjoyed" it because it makes time on the trainer go by faster. Give me the outdoors anytime though.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> So not a requirement, it's a choice. Got it.


Clearly this is yet another thing that is way over your head, Dave. But hey, I'm glad you keep posting. Maybe you'll finally learn something one of these days.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> It's really comical to see a few delusional Zwift heros emerge from their basements after a winter of "ripping up the Zwift races" and get promptly shelled on the first real effort of the day. They come around in a few weeks of actual group and race efforts, but still, it's funny the initial reactions.


So you in your world, people who come out of their basements in the winter having had a full offseason of Zwift Racing and training are going to get dropped by the people who don't do that?

Got it.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Migen21 said:


> So you in your world, people who come out of their basements in the winter having had a full offseason of Zwift Racing and training are going to get dropped by the people who don't do that?
> 
> Got it.


Actually, most "serious" racers (relative term) I know don't spend time on Zwift. They're doing structured intervals that the Zwift stimuli can often distract from. In my world, a lot of the "serious" racers are out riding fat bikes or cross-country skiing or in the gym lifting weights to build a wider base of fitness than they would get from Zwift. With a structured approach, they arrive at the riding season fresher and in better form than if they'd spent the winter flailing away in virtual races. They crush the crap out of me, because I suck and I spend my time chasing random riders from Singapore on Zwift or going for a short-lived green jersey instead of doing the structured intervals I'm supposed to do. Even when I have that screen in front of me flashing like a cop car, I still get distracted because I'm mentally weak.

Zwift didn't revolutionize training. Zwift revolutionized training distractions, making indoor training more bearable for a wider section of the populace, which makes them more likely to ride a trainer more than a couple times before they put it on craigslist. If the difference it makes is them exercising during the off-season instead of sitting on the couch, then their fitness will likely improve. However, don't ignore the negatives that come with the platform and how a lot of people interact with it. Everyone has peaks and valleys in their fitness, and you don't want to hit the season's peak a month before the season even starts.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> Actually, most "serious" racers (relative term) I know don't spend time on Zwift. They're doing structured intervals that the Zwift stimuli can often distract from. In my world, a lot of the "serious" racers are out riding fat bikes or cross-country skiing or in the gym lifting weights to build a wider base of fitness than they would get from Zwift. With a structured approach, they arrive at the riding season fresher and in better form than if they'd spent the winter flailing away in virtual races. They crush the crap out of me, because I suck and I spend my time chasing random riders from Singapore on Zwift or going for a short-lived green jersey instead of doing the structured intervals I'm supposed to do. Even when I have that screen in front of me flashing like a cop car, I still get distracted because I'm mentally weak.
> 
> Zwift didn't revolutionize training. Zwift revolutionized training distractions, making indoor training more bearable for a wider section of the populace, which makes them more likely to ride a trainer more than a couple times before they put it on craigslist. If the difference it makes is them exercising during the off-season instead of sitting on the couch, then their fitness will likely improve. However, don't ignore the negatives that come with the platform and how a lot of people interact with it. Everyone has peaks and valleys in their fitness, and you don't want to hit the season's peak a month before the season even starts.


I would imagine that the majority of Zwift users probably do not consider themselves 'serious' racers - or even 'racers' for that matter. - I'm not even sure I know what 'serious' means in this context - I know a dozen or so people who race in Cat5 through Cat 3 local road and crit races - and one or two who are Cat1/2. I only know one guy who would probably say 'yes' if I asked if he was a "serious racer" (he travels to quite a few regional and national track racing events). Every single one of them uses Zwift for various things - from workouts, to recovery rides, and even entering races as a training ride alternative. 

I'm not sure what you mean by Zwift being distracting - strucutured workouts are not only feasible, but it's one of the three main uses for Zwift - Strucutured workouts are really all I do with it - along with an occasional group ride - I'm not really competitive enough to do much racing, but occasionally enter a "C" race just for fun.

Some examples of structured workouts.





















This is a Strava Power Zone Distrubution graph after a 'targeted' threshold workout.










There are three main things you can do in Zwift 

"Events" -- Either casual paced group rides - or competitive race events.
"Workouts" -- There are dozens included - including workout plans - and you can import and create your own with the editor - or just create them in a text editor (.xml files)
"Just Riding Along" - just pick a route and get yourself in a recovery ride, or go for some sprints or KOM jerseys, etc... 

No, it's not the same as riding outside 
No, it's not better than riding outside (in a general sense - although you can get much better focus in workouts without traffic/lights, etc...)
Yes, it's better than staring outside longing for spring when the cold, dark winter sets in (for us in the cold dark north)

This is my second winter using Zwift - I started a 14 week training block back in December - As of Saturday, my FTP is 40 points higher now than it was last September after riding outdoors all summer.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Zwift level 25, been in since the Beta. Yes, there are tons of cheaters in the races (its like the 2000 TdF basically) and the jerseys are often held by "fliers" which is Zwift talk for the weight dopers and people with Fisher-Price smart trainers that have them warping around the map at 4-5 w/kg despite Heart Rates under 100 bpm. So I must be mad or about to quit right?

Nope, its too damn useful. I ride solo 95% of the time on Zwift doing my thing. But I like having others around, I like have the options to "race" to be able to push myself any night of the week. Sure I am getting "beat" by some riders who are barely C riders IRL, but that's their downfall not mine. Let them pretend to their friends they are fast- the road season will sort them out quickly. 

The structured workouts are good, and the FTP testing is very handy (the repeat-ability is outstanding), and its only $10 a month. Its SO much better than the other options, its not even funny. Yes, I really wish Zwift tried to address the cheating more than it does currently- but I also feel that way about USA Cycling. . .


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Migen21 said:


> Mr Grumpy,
> 
> Have you ever tried a Zwift race? I'm just curious.
> 
> ...


Of course he as that's why he's grumpy. His watts/kg was the best he's ever had and some kids on cruiser spanked him in the virtual race.

I heard if you have virtual bike with disk brakes you can descend the hill faster and safer.


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## dcb (Jul 21, 2008)

Zwift does make riding the trainer more interesting than Trainerroad or the like, but I'd rather do structured intervals on Trainerroad than Zwift. Take a Zwift race result seriously though? No way. That would be like taking Strava leaderboards seriously.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

I've done a little bit of everything on Zwift. Solo, group rides, races and such.
I've even done two indoor centuries that were 5.5 hours on the bike.

Currently, I use it for my distraction while using TrainerRoad overlayed for my workouts and training plan.

I enjoy the races because they can push you to work harder than you might otherwise for an indoor ride. I don't care about cheaters or finishing positions. I only review my own results to see how my W/Kg and power were during the event.

People should back off the "all or nothing"... it's good or bad viewpoint. Everyone has different needs, goals and intentions for riding in Zwift. Don't knock their usage unless it has some negative impact on yours.

Considering the virtual world that exists, that impact is little to absolutely nothing... so lighten the hell up about it is my point.

It's a great tool to be used as the rider chooses. And like any tool, it can be used well or poorly. Use it for what you need and let the other stuff slide.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

All my friends that use Zwift say "it's a great workout"...tool/program/etc.

I've never heard any of them say or refer to themselves as "racers".

I think we can all make that distinction.

Otherwise I'm a _Tennis Player_ because I've played it against my kids on a Nintendo Wii.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

dcb said:


> Zwift does make riding the trainer more interesting than Trainerroad or the like, but I'd rather do structured intervals on Trainerroad than Zwift. Take a Zwift race result seriously though? No way. That would be like taking Strava leaderboards seriously.


TrainerRoad is a good program, and has a more "serious" vibe to it. I got good results out of it for two seasons. I just recently canceled my subscription because I just wasn't using it much since Zwift workouts came along. Nowadays I split my indoor rides between Zwift and CVT.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> So you in your world, people who come out of their basements in the winter having had a full offseason of Zwift Racing and training are going to get dropped by the people who don't do that?
> 
> Got it.


There's clearly a lot of things you don't get, along with Dave. Like reading what's actually written on the page. 

Or being cognizant of the fact that you continually ignoring salient questions demonstrates how brazenly duplicitous you are in your earlier postings and how you're basically talking out of your rear since you apparently don't know anything about 1/2 of the argument you're trying to debate.

What was your quip earlier?



Migen21 said:


> While you are certainly welcome to have an opinion about things you know very little about and have zero experience with, I'm also welcome to discount that opinion for lack of credibility.




Oh. Yeahhhh.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> Third I can change the trainer difficulty, and in reality I can just shut it off. Like weight, there's no stopping this. What this does is eliminate any and all gradients from affecting me. As you go up the 2% or whatever grade and have to switch gears, I don't. I stay virtually on flat ground due to my trainer difficulty setting.


I haven't read the whole thread, but in case no one has already corrected you on this point. Setting the difficulty slide down or up won't help you cheat. Your avatar's speed is based on the watts. So with difficulty setting on 100%, if you are going up a steep grade in a low gear, low rpm, but high watts, it will be the same speed as if the setting was on zero, so you were riding in a higher gear, higher rooms rpms, but still same wattage. I suppose down steep grades, it's sometimes a little harder to get the higher wattage since you have to spin a very high cadence to keep the watts up, and that isn't easy for everyone. So turning off trainer difficulty can help in those situations. But most of the races I've done have not gone up and down the mountain, they usually just choose the flat or rolling courses, where you can still put the wattage on the downhill even with difficulty setting at the highest.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I've noticed a bit of an elitist attitude from many people who feel like if they are losing races in Zwift that the other people MUST be cheating - like there is no way anyone that is actually faster than them would actually stoop so low as to ride in a virtual world....


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> I've noticed a bit of an elitist attitude from many people who feel like if they are losing races in Zwift that the other people MUST be cheating - like there is no way anyone that is actually faster than them would actually stoop so low as to ride in a virtual world....


Another unrelated tangent that isn't being discussed by anyone. 

You're also STILL managing to completely miss the point that's being repeated throughout this thread: that's it's NOT racing, it's software that makes indoor training less boring. Good for a workout, but not anything like a real race. 

Again, since you seemed to have ignored the dozen other posts saying that same thing.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Pretty sure you are the only one repeating that..


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> Pretty sure you are the only one repeating that..


repeating maybe... but not the only one that has said it. So let me join in on the repeat.... Zwift makes trainer rides less boring and can be fun, but like real racing is a big no from me. Serious ? I guess that's debatable .. I don't think it's serious racing obviously. The fact that I can win a zwift race nearly proves it.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but in case no one has already corrected you on this point. Setting the difficulty slide down or up won't help you cheat. Your avatar's speed is based on the watts. So with difficulty setting on 100%, if you are going up a steep grade in a low gear, low rpm, but high watts, it will be the same speed as if the setting was on zero, so you were riding in a higher gear, higher rooms rpms, but still same wattage. I suppose down steep grades, it's sometimes a little harder to get the higher wattage since you have to spin a very high cadence to keep the watts up, and that isn't easy for everyone. So turning off trainer difficulty can help in those situations. But most of the races I've done have not gone up and down the mountain, they usually just choose the flat or rolling courses, where you can still put the wattage on the downhill even with difficulty setting at the highest.


Thanks for admitting that you haven't read the thread.

Sadly, your reading comprehension for what you did read is poor.

I would suggest you read what you have quoted again, but I'll be nice and explain it again so you can easily understand.

If your trainer difficulty slider is at 0 and my slider is at 100, you experience 0 grade changes and I experience grade changes exactly as shown on the screen.

What that means is that as we hit a 9.6% grade coming off of a downhill, I have to drop chainrings and shift all the way up my cassette. You don't shift at all.

Understand?

The difficulty setting means you have change gears more or less. Understand? Shifting gears takes time and power train loss. I'm sure you understand now.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> Thanks for admitting that you haven't read the thread.
> 
> Sadly, your reading comprehension for what you did read is poor.
> 
> ...


Actually, tote the one with the reading comprehension issues. I was simply pointing out that your power is what controls the speed of the avatar. And whether you produce that power with the slider at 0% or 100% doesn't make one wit of difference.

Further, for some of us, it's actually easier to generate the power with the slider up. I can climb the epic kom faster when it actually feels like a climb than when it feels like a flat. Doing the actual ftp test where it makes the road feel flat doesn't score me as high an ftp as when I climb the mountain.

And I did admit there may be a slight advantage to turning off the difficulty on the descents, because for many, it's easier to produce the power to maintain speed if they can pedal at 90 rpm instead of 130. But again, the speed is determined by actual power, not by where the slider is.

I'm sure you understand now.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> Actually, tote the one with the reading comprehension issues. I was simply pointing out that your power is what controls the speed of the avatar. And whether you produce that power with the slider at 0% or 100% doesn't make one wit of difference.
> 
> Further, for some of us, it's actually easier to generate the power with the slider up. I can climb the epic kom faster when it actually feels like a climb than when it feels like a flat. Doing the actual ftp test where it makes the road feel flat doesn't score me as high an ftp as when I climb the mountain.
> 
> ...


And yet again you completely ignore the point being made and spout off about nonsense.

Are you actually debating me and saying that having to change gears constantly vs. never having to change gears makes zero difference?

That's the point I made that you quoted and have been arguing against without even addressing the point at all.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> And yet again you completely ignore the point being made and spout off about nonsense.
> 
> Are you actually debating me and saying that having to change gears constantly vs. never having to change gears makes zero difference?


Ah, I see. You're one of those who can never about when they're wrong. You'll probably make my point to me next month and say I was arguing your side previously. My brother used to do that when we were kids.

And, no, I didn't even discuss the issue of changing gears, which wasn't in the original post you made that I first responded to, only in your follow-up post. Your initial post made it sound like you believed that turning off the slider have you an advantage with regards to the power that would generate the avatar's speed (as if turning it off made it easier to generate power).

Yes, I suppose the fraction of a second switching gears takes, done over many times, can play a role, though I'd argue it wouldn't really be that significant as you make it out to be. Furthermore, if the speed of the group changes up or down (someone makes a break, etc), you'll still end up changing gears pretty often, anyway, even with the slider at zero. (Just like a race on flat land-you aren't actually gonna stay in a single gear the whole time).

Anyway, whatever, it doesn't really matter. It's a game, and it's fun to play. I don't even really care about the actual cheaters who change their weight, It'll push me harder and make me stronger trying to keep up with them.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> Ah, I see. You're one of those who can never about when they're wrong. You'll probably make my point to me next month and say I was arguing your side previously. My brother used to do that when we were kids.
> 
> And, no, I didn't even discuss the issue of changing gears, which wasn't in the original post you made that I first responded to, only in your follow-up post. Your initial post made it sound like you believed that turning off the slider have you an advantage with regards to the power that would generate the avatar's speed (as if turning it off made it easier to generate power).


You are describing yourself, not your brother.

You are the one who has completely ignored the point I made and argued against a point I never made.



> Originally Posted by MMsRepBike
> 
> Third I can change the trainer difficulty, and in reality I can just shut it off. Like weight, there's no stopping this. What this does is eliminate any and all gradients from affecting me. *As you go up the 2% or whatever grade and have to switch gears, I don't.* I stay virtually on flat ground due to my trainer difficulty setting.


You say I never talked about switching gears? You quoted it! I bolded it for you, seeing how, again, your reading comprehension is poor.

My post did NOT make it sound like turning the slider off made it easier to generate power, again, you quoted it. I never said it made you more powerful or gave you higher watts per kilo, not even close. I said it makes one have to switch gears and the other not. That's what I said. It eliminates the virtual gradient. That's the point. It eliminates the shifting. That's the point. That's what I said. And again, you quoted it.



Jwiffle said:


> Ah, I see. You're one of those who can never about when they're wrong. You'll probably make my point to me next month and say I was arguing your side previously.
> 
> 
> Yes, I suppose the fraction of a second switching gears takes, done over many times, can play a role, though I'd argue it wouldn't really be that significant as you make it out to be.



The irony.


Who said anything about making it significant? The fact is that it exists, that is all. As you said yourself, fractions of seconds done many times can play a role. That's the end of the story right there. That's the significance right there. That's all there needs to be. 


That's the point that you're arguing against, well it was until you comprehended the argument.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> You are describing yourself, not your brother.
> 
> You are the one who has completely ignored the point I made and argued against a point I never made.
> 
> ...


Yes, but now you were saying that switching gears costs you drivetrain loss. That was not in your original post. Just that you had to switch gears with the slider up, and not with it off. 

Not having to change gears on a 2% slope is not really going to give you an advantage. With the slider all the way up, I'll need to switch to, what, one gear easier to stay at your speed? If I leave it in the same gear and push the same cadence, it would mean I'd drop you. Unless you spun faster or shifted up one harder gear. But, then you're switching gears.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> Yes, but now you were saying that switching gears costs you drivetrain loss. That was not in your original post. Just that you had to switch gears with the slider up, and not with it off.
> 
> Not having to change gears on a 2% slope is not really going to give you an advantage. With the slider all the way up, I'll need to switch to, what, one gear easier to stay at your speed? If I leave it in the same gear and push the same cadence, it would mean I'd drop you. Unless you spun faster or shifted up one harder gear. But, then you're switching gears.


I don't want to get involved in the acrimonious bickering here, but here are my 2c on this topic. I ran Zwift with a dumb trainer and a power meter for two seasons. That is essentially the same as using a smart trainer with the slider at zero. Now I have a smart trainer and I use the slider at 100%. There is no question in my mind that the smart trainer setup is a little harder. It not just that you are changing gears, but the constant charges in grade alter cadence and power. With the dumb trainer, when I climbed Mt Zwift I could basically treat it like a time trial where I just set my watts near my FTP. I was oblivious to any variations in grade (other than my speed changing). There are no power drops when you shift, or having to get out on the saddle to get on top of the gear


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

DaveG said:


> I don't want to get involved in the acrimonious bickering here, but here are my 2c on this topic. I ran Zwift with a dumb trainer and a power meter for two seasons. That is essentially the same as using a smart trainer with the slider at zero. Now I have a smart trainer and I use the slider at 100%. There is no question in my mind that the smart trainer setup is a little harder. It not just that you are changing gears, but the constant charges in grade alter cadence and power. With the dumb trainer, when I climbed Mt Zwift I could basically treat it like a time trial where I just set my watts near my FTP. I was oblivious to any variations in grade (other than my speed changing). There are no power drops when you shift, or having to get out on the saddle to get on top of the gear


That is interesting. But like I said, I have a different experience with a smart trainer. It may just be psychological (ok, likely is), but I am able to push myself harder up the climb when the trainer makes it feel like a climb. If it feels flat, I can only average about 240-245 watts, but can do 270 or so with the gradient changes. So for me, anyway, it helps to have the slider up.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> Yes, but now you were saying that switching gears costs you drivetrain loss. That was not in your original post. Just that you had to switch gears with the slider up, and not with it off.
> 
> Not having to change gears on a 2% slope is not really going to give you an advantage. With the slider all the way up, I'll need to switch to, what, one gear easier to stay at your speed? If I leave it in the same gear and push the same cadence, it would mean I'd drop you. Unless you spun faster or shifted up one harder gear. But, then you're switching gears.


Switching gears requires you to let off for bit while the gears are changing. Nobody mashes through gears at full power, we all know how to change gears properly.

If you're really good at changing gears with gradient changes, the effect is, as you say, fractions of a second of loss each time. That is a loss in power train. Your power has to lower or basically let off for a fraction of second to shift gears properly.

I would hope this is common knowledge and understanding among cyclists.

So now you *are* going to argue that having to change gears vs. not having to change gears makes zero difference? You already conceded this. You correctly concluded that it's a fraction of a second, which happens repeatedly over a course, which will add up to something at the end.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> Switching gears requires you to let off for bit while the gears are changing. Nobody mashes through gears at full power, we all know how to change gears properly.
> 
> If you're really good at changing gears with gradient changes, the effect is, as you say, fractions of a second of loss each time. That is a loss in power train. Your power has to lower or basically let off for a fraction of second to shift gears properly.
> 
> ...


I think we agree with each other more than we disagree. And it may be that I read your first post wrong.

However, I see you are still unwilling to admit that even with the slider off, you're going to have to change gears, particularly if you're racing against others who have the slider up (you just end up changing the opposite direction). Which does negate the "artificial benefit" of turning off the difficulty.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> That is interesting. But like I said, I have a different experience with a smart trainer. It may just be psychological (ok, likely is), but I am able to push myself harder up the climb when the trainer makes it feel like a climb. If it feels flat, I can only average about 240-245 watts, but can do 270 or so with the gradient changes. So for me, anyway, it helps to have the slider up.


I get that. When I am doing the steeper climbs I am more likely to go into the red simply because I have run out of gears. The smart trainer can force you to push harder. Because you feel it, I think physiologically it may push you to work harder, just like chasing someone (or being chased) in Zwift can do


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> I think we agree with each other more than we disagree. And it may be that I read your first post wrong.
> 
> However, I see you are still unwilling to admit that even with the slider off, you're going to have to change gears, particularly if you're racing against others who have the slider up (you just end up changing the opposite direction). Which does negate the "artificial benefit" of turning off the difficulty.


I'm not even in a discussion about what you do if the slider is all the way down. Only you have been talking about that.

But I'll switch to that topic now, seeing how you've conceded the original one.

With the slider down at zero, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to switch gears, the terrain is virtually flat. You can change gears if you wish, but you don't have to at any point. So yes, I'm unwilling to admit that you're going to have to change gears. We can argue on this point as well.

With the slider at zero, you have full control and choice. You can treat the "race" as a time trial and just set a power for yourself and try to maintain it the whole race no matter what anyone else is doing. You may end up in a pack with a draft, you may end up off the front on a "break," you may end up getting "dropped." Whatever happens, you'll be doing your thing on virtual flat ground at a set wattage. You could also do the complete opposite. You could think that drafting in the pack or drafting in general is the most important thing there is in "racing." You could do everything in your power to stay right behind someone to draft them, meaning you'd have to change gears and virtual speeds to stay in the draft.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Well, that's all true enough.
I guess the only thing I'm really arguing is calling the switching off the slider as cheating. It's just part of the game. Those on dumb trainers with power meters are just like as a smart trainer with the slider off. It's different, but we can't call them cheating, as it's just how the game is.



MMsRepBike said:


> I'm not even in a discussion about what you do if the slider is all the way down. Only you have been talking about that.
> 
> But I'll switch to that topic now, seeing how you've conceded the original one.
> 
> ...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> I guess the only thing I'm really arguing is calling the switching off the slider as cheating. It's just part of the game. Those on dumb trainers with power meters are just like as a smart trainer with the slider off. It's different, but we can't call them cheating, as it's just how the game is.


Maybe it could be considered a marginal gain. Or maybe it's better for some but worse for others.

Because it can be used in races, it further invalidates those races. 

The deals where it's sort of a LAN party, where everyone is in the same room, on the same trainer, all monitored and controlled by the company, can be considered quite legit. Still not the same as road racing, but I'd argue that could be a form of legit racing of it's own. 

When people have whatever trainer in their house, set up however, well then it's not legit at all. The slider is just one very small example of the large amount of tweaks one can make to "cheat" or get an edge. Would you consider purposely falsely calibrating your trainer to be cheating? Probably yes, because it's not part of the game. The slider is. So maybe the slider is just a marginal gain and not cheating, but shouldn't it be removed from the races? Shouldn't they be doing all they can to level the playing field for races? Or do they realize there's just too many variables to it and are leaving it at that? I think they should disable the slider for races and pick either zero or 100, whichever they think is best. Maybe zero, seeing how that's closer to the dumb trainers.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Maybe it could be considered a marginal gain. Or maybe it's better for some but worse for others.
> 
> Because it can be used in races, it further invalidates those races.
> 
> ...


I also use the CycleOps CVT app. It allows you to "race" and set the best times on a particular course. In race mode you are required to have the realism set to 100%. I hesitate to call anything "cheating" unless its done with forethought. I don't race in Zwift so this issue really doesn't bother me a whole lot


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

well I have avoided this thread completely until now. 4 pages of discussions o virtual racing. Seriously guys??


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> well I have avoided this thread completely until now. 4 pages of discussions o virtual racing. Seriously guys??


Would you rather go back to arguing about disc brakes?

Seriously acl, what do you expect? Its winter, many of us have snow and ice, and there aren't a whole lot of other threads going on. 

In another month or so, we will have put away our trainers and we can get back to standard summer repeat threads


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DaveG said:


> Would you rather go back to arguing about disc brakes?
> 
> Seriously acl, what do you expect? Its winter, many of us have snow and ice, and there aren't a whole lot of other threads going on.
> 
> In another month or so, we will have put away our trainers and we can get back to standard summer repeat threads


Chain lube, it'd be better to argue about chain lube in the winter for those that are riding their bikes in the snow and ice.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

Zwift racing will never be the same as real racing. The risk of injury alone is enough to separate the two though there are other differences as well. That said people are free to take zwift racing as seriously (or not) as they want. You will find people competing at just about everything so this really isn't any different. You just have to keep in mind that like all "PC gaming" there are factors like the various mentioned in this thread that make it so the competition isn't completely even. These can range from hardware (trainer and pc) configurations to intentional cheating, and just like PC gaming it is only really somewhat legit in a controlled environment run by some sort of organization like those gaming tournaments. 

At the same time various factors can also be found in real racing like the guy on the 10k bike vs some guy on a 1k bike (equal riders in all other cases). The guys doping vs the ones that aren't etc. 

For me it just makes the trainer enjoyable when outside riding is otherwise not possible. Make of it whatever you want, be that racing or training or just as a game, it makes no difference to me and it shouldn't to anyone else either.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

Why can't Zwift races just be Zwift races? Why do they have to match up to an outdoor race to be considered a race? It's still competition, but anyone with half a brain (or maybe even less) knows it's not the same as a real live race in the great outdoors. Seems like much ado about nothing if you ask me. If you like it, do it and enjoy it. If not, wait for the snow to melt, hop on your fatbike, or stare at the wall on the trainer...who really cares?


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I think the title of the thread is what's throwing some people off. Particularly the words, "Zwift", "Racing" and "serious".

:lol:


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

arai_speed said:


> I think the title of the thread is what's throwing some people off. Particularly the words, "Zwift", "Racing" and "serious".
> 
> :lol:


yes they don't belong in the same sentence


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Indoor racing.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveG said:


> Would you rather go back to arguing about disc brakes?
> 
> Seriously acl, what do you expect? Its winter, many of us have snow and ice, and there aren't a whole lot of other threads going on.
> 
> In another month or so, we will have put away our trainers and we can get back to standard summer repeat threads


not touching disc brakes. Swiftsolo has that market covered. who the hell wants to hear him rehashing


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> not touching disc brakes. Swiftsolo has that market covered. who the hell wants to hear him rehashing


So we have provided a much needed respite from that. You are welcome


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## pmachan (Apr 14, 2015)

ddave12000 said:


> Why can't Zwift races just be Zwift races? Why do they have to match up to an outdoor race to be considered a race? It's still competition, but anyone with half a brain (or maybe even less) knows it's not the same as a real live race in the great outdoors. Seems like much ado about nothing if you ask me. If you like it, do it and enjoy it. If not, wait for the snow to melt, hop on your fatbike, or stare at the wall on the trainer...who really cares?


Exactly. I find the zwift races put me in a similar mindset to a real race, its a lot more complex than just riding the trainer, or doing a specific workout, and they are hard, its fun.
I see nothing wrong with anyone taking it seriously, and zwift will only improve over time. Take a look at the motorsports sim world and how far that has come.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

pmachan said:


> Exactly. I find the zwift races put me in a similar mindset to a real race, its a lot more complex than just riding the trainer, or doing a specific workout, and they are hard, its fun.
> I see nothing wrong with anyone taking it seriously, and zwift will only improve over time. Take a look at the motorsports sim world and how far that has come.


The flight simulation and the F1 simulation are fun. But it would be naive to think that just because you're an ace in some X-sim, you're an ace pilot in an F18. I won't even mention about motorcycle sim. Sim games are fun, but they still have a long way to go. Zwift gives a good workout, just like any trainer session could. But it would be naive to think that one would be able to take a fast corner down a twisy at 35-40 mph in a real race. And this is what we mean by "racing".


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## pmachan (Apr 14, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> The flight simulation and the F1 simulation are fun. But it would be naive to think that just because you're an ace in some X-sim, you're an ace pilot in an F18. I won't even mention about motorcycle sim. Sim games are fun, but they still have a long way to go. Zwift gives a good workout, just like any trainer session could. But it would be naive to think that one would be able to take a fast corner down a twisy at 35-40 mph in a real race. And this is what we mean by "racing".


I think the aim of Zwift is to be immersive from the "workout" point of view, vs total simulation of riding a bike. I find the races to be pretty good workouts, and keep me very immersed in the "race", vs blindly following a watt goal or HR goal. 
Motorsports simulation, specifically iracing, has changed sim realism significantly, in the last few years. 
There are several actual pros out there that came directly from sims, vs real racing.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

pmachan said:


> I think the aim of Zwift is to be immersive from the "workout" point of view, vs total simulation of riding a bike. I find the races to be pretty good workouts, and keep me very immersed in the "race", vs blindly following a watt goal or HR goal.
> Motorsports simulation, specifically iracing, has changed sim realism significantly, in the last few years.
> There are several actual pros out there that came directly from sims, vs real racing.


How do these people adjust the G forces involved in racing and the heat/elements of a race car.. Sure I was good at Gran Turismo back in the day...but as someone who tracked his car & SCCA autocrosses... I can't imagine the level up in open wheel racing..let only F1.


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## pmachan (Apr 14, 2015)

spdntrxi said:


> How do these people adjust the G forces involved in racing and the heat/elements of a race car.. Sure I was good at Gran Turismo back in the day...but as someone who tracked his car & SCCA autocrosses... I can't imagine the level up in open wheel racing..let only F1.


Obviously you don't get the forces/heat...

However, in iracing for example, they laser map the tracks, and they measure the actual cars, getting all CAD data from the manufacturer, etc.
As an example, I race cars, one of the cars I race is in iracing, and one of the tracks I race on is also in the sim. I can tell you, it is very accurate, all the same bumps are there, they affect the car the same way, the real setups we use on the car have the same affect, etc. 
This isn't Gran Turismo, and thats my point, Zwift is like Gran Turismo back in the day, it can only get better.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Yes. Iracing is great. I was a beta tester for years in their transition from Papyrus to Iracing. I even won the first official series championship in the old Solstice just before they opened the pay service. I largely quit serious sim racing around 2008 to refocus on cycling (I still dabble in Dirt Rally from time to time), but those were some of the best hours I have spend on a PC with some great people.

They came from humble beginnings in the original Indycar Racing when we all used a keyboard for controls. It all progressed to super high end force feedback steering and amazing pedal options. The skills learned there are real and worthwhile for those that use it to learn and transition into real racing.

I haven't raced in years, but the decade plus that I spent on the sims directly translated to real control when I did some autocross racing around the same time. The actions all transfer even though there are tangible differences.

Zwift may not be shooting to be the ultimate cycling simulator like Iracing is to real auto racing. But the fitness and some of the tactics will transfer to real cycling racing and be beneficial for some people.

Zwift and real racing will always be somewhat different and that is fine. Take each one for what they are worth and use them to their fullest.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Chader09 said:


> Zwift and real racing will always be somewhat different and that is fine. Take each one for what they are worth and use them to their fullest.


That pretty much sums it up.

Zwift has been a quantum leap forward for trainer time distraction/motivation. Hopefully it will continue to get better, although they're limited by what the hardware manufacturers put out that they can incorporate into their simulations. Am I going to want to wear 3D goggles while sweating on a trainer? Nope. I'd love to see a steering turntable for the front wheel introduced that could provide directional control. At a certain point, there's only so much they can do with the platform as it sits before they really start making it into a Mario Cart farce. Incremental refinements and regular course updates are probably what we're going to see for the foreseeable future, and I'm fine with that.

I have about a month of Zwift left before I'm back on pavement. You can already see online numbers dropping as the northern hemisphere starts warming and the southern starts cooling. I assume more temperate weather means people are actually riding outside (gasp!), and we'll soon see threads about "IRL Racing- It's getting kinda serious..."


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

DaveWC said:


> Thankfully there's absolutely no way to cheat in real world races!


This literally made me laugh out loud!


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Zwift racing = real bike racing 

like

Halo = real wartime battles


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## SNS1938 (Aug 9, 2013)

Been doing a good bit of Zwift of late. Loving the ''racing''. I can pretty much find a suitable ''race'' every other time I use it. It's still in it's infancy, and there are some fliers and some people who don't seem to understand how to work together and treat races like individual time trials. I don't think this is the same as doing real world racing, but there are not real world races at 8:30 at night in my town etc. 

I'll be sticking with Zwift, and doing races whenever available.

As for cheaters. It's just like cheating in any game. If you tweak you set up, I don't care. If you out and out cheat and ride twice as fast as everyone else, then you're just cheating yourself out of the ''race'' aspect of it.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

SNS1938 said:


> It's still in it's infancy...


I'd say it's at least in its early teens, development-wise, in the software world. What we're seeing now is what it will likely be, allowing for a natural, progressive evolution over time. Certain aspects will likely evolve as hardware technology advances, but the capabilities of the platform are constrained by what hardware is commonly available/in use. In a niche market, further segmenting your potential audience with features that only a small percentage can use doesn't make sense financially.

Racing? They'll eventually find a happy medium and that will become the new standard for Zwift races. Not anything close to a real race, but valid in its own environment in terms of authentication and validation. We're just not quite there yet. We may not be in the full-blown EPO era of Zwift racing, but Motoman is still cruising around Watopia delivering virtual blood bags.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Alaska Mike said:


> We may not be in the full-blown EPO era of Zwift racing, but Motoman is still cruising around Watopia delivering virtual blood bags.


Maybe this is where Zwift goes next with making racing more real. Virtual doping and virtual drugs tests that you have to evade. Maybe even virtual trips to visit Dr. Ferrari. I like it


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

DaveG said:


> Maybe this is where Zwift goes next with making racing more real. Virtual doping and virtual drugs tests that you have to evade. Maybe even virtual trips to visit Dr. Ferrari. I like it


Ha, additional "altitude camps in Tenerife with Ferrari" available for an extra $10 a month. Could be huge!


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## SNS1938 (Aug 9, 2013)

Alaska Mike said:


> I'd say it's at least in its early teens, development-wise, in the software world. What we're seeing now is what it will likely be, allowing for a natural, progressive evolution over time. Certain aspects will likely evolve as hardware technology advances, but the capabilities of the platform are constrained by what hardware is commonly available/in use. In a niche market, further segmenting your potential audience with features that only a small percentage can use doesn't make sense financially.
> 
> Racing? They'll eventually find a happy medium and that will become the new standard for Zwift races. Not anything close to a real race, but valid in its own environment in terms of authentication and validation. We're just not quite there yet. We may not be in the full-blown EPO era of Zwift racing, but Motoman is still cruising around Watopia delivering virtual blood bags.


I say infancy because there is strong talk about complete trainer bikes in the near future. I presume that'll add steering. Maybe give road feel to more than just Neo riders etc. 

Also the vagueness of the classes. Every race I've done has been a hammerfest. Closer ranked riders and more effective drafting could encourage/necessitate bunches forming etc, more akin to on the road. Often out of 30 riders, there are 10-12 "bunches" of a coupe of riders. 

Regardless, it blows away a basic trainer and is where I'll be training and "racing" for a while at least


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Heres my honest thought, zwift is a ticket to burnout.

I am trying to restrain myself from spending the time on the kickr and swift. I am limiting myself to 2 zwift sessions a week.

Last night i put in 30 real miles, and I felt so much better. 75% of the ride was in the dark. I know my miles will take a dip this year, but i am trying to better balance the miles on zwift and outdoors.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Everyone is different Pitt. 

I've been riding in Zwift all winter (weather outside has been horrible since Oct), and 4-6 days a week since late December, and I am still loving it. I started a 14 week training plan just after Christmas, and it's really kept me motivated to keep going. My FTP is going up, my weight is going down, and I've not suffered any negative mental or physical side effects.

Heck, I'm more fit and lighter now than I was after riding outdoors 9k miles last year. For me, there is no better motivation than that.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Migen21 said:


> Everyone is different Pitt.
> 
> I've been riding in Zwift all winter (weather outside has been horrible since Oct), and 4-6 days a week since late December, and I am still loving it. I started a 14 week training plan just after Christmas, and it's really kept me motivated to keep going. My FTP is going up, my weight is going down, and I've not suffered any negative mental or physical side effects.
> 
> Heck, I'm more fit and lighter now than I was after riding outdoors 9k miles last year. For me, there is no better motivation than that.


I feel the same. I am really motivated right now, Between using Zwift and CVT this winter 4-5 days a week I am in the best shape I have ever been at the start of the season. It also helped me drop 13lbs (so far) Soon, I be doing outdoor rides whenever possible, but if the weather is bad, I will have no issue riding in the basement


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

it's like racing in a spin-class. it may be exercise, it may have training applications but its not riding a bike


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Everyone is different Pitt.
> 
> I've been riding in Zwift all winter (weather outside has been horrible since Oct), and 4-6 days a week since late December, and I am still loving it. I started a 14 week training plan just after Christmas, and it's really kept me motivated to keep going. My FTP is going up, my weight is going down, and I've not suffered any negative mental or physical side effects.
> 
> Heck, I'm more fit and lighter now than I was after riding outdoors 9k miles last year. For me, there is no better motivation than that.


I know everyone is different, that being said i have about 2 years with some form virtual training option(cvt, trainerroad, zwift) i too felt an enormous burst of results off the bat (within the first 3 to 5 months), lowered weight greater power, better cardio. 

The bubble burst for me this year. I would do 4 to 5 days of virtual training in a row, say to myself saturday and sunday I am going to get out there and kill it. But i never got out there, my body was starting to shut down. Until i had a full blown burn-out.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

...............


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Meanwhile there are actual bike races happening where people are, you know, actually riding their bikes outside.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

..........


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> If you don't like, and don't want to watch it, that's fine - but why the negative posts in this thread?


Discussion board, brah.

Perhaps you're so caught up in the imaginary world of fake bike riding that you aren't aware of the real races going on? Like Paris-Roubaix tomorrow?

Just a little fyi.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

pedalbiker said:


> Discussion board, brah.
> 
> Perhaps you're so caught up in the imaginary world of fake bike riding that you aren't aware of the real races going on? Like Paris-Roubaix tomorrow?
> 
> Just a little fyi.


hey on my Neo... I can feel the cobbles..................












NOT


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Cycligent Virtual Racing World Cup

Presented by Crystal Light





Whatever keeps you spinning...


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

The 80's were a sick decade


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

"Brah"... that was embarrassing.




Wow, this thread is getting kinda serious. I mean, not in an actual way like a debate between people in person... but with the incredibly strong point & counterpoint back & forth you'd think this discussion was an actual thing! I guarantee if one of you just pushes really hard for the finish, you'll win this thing!!!


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

DaveWC said:


> "Brah"... that was embarrassing.


Fits perfectly with a line of questioning concerning a discussion of a topic on a discussion board.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

I can't believe this is an actual discussion, let alone worth 6 pages. Lately I have been in the anti-zwift camp, because at the end of the hour or two you have done a lot of work and gone nowhere.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

pittcanna said:


> I can't believe this is an actual discussion, let alone worth 6 pages. Lately I have been in the anti-zwift camp, because at the end of the hour or two you have done a lot of work and gone nowhere.


pitt, you are done a complete 180. Why do I get the feeling that in 3 months you will be telling us you are burned out on outdoor cycling and can't wait to get back to Zwift


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

DaveG said:


> pitt, you are done a complete 180. Why do I get the feeling that in 3 months you will be telling us you are burned out on outdoor cycling and can't wait to get back to Zwift


Because even getting hit by a car didn't make me go back to zwift.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

I really like Zwift. That's probably a good thing, because thanks to an early season illness, I'm going to be on Zwift a little bit longer than I anticipated. Once my health returns, the Zwift computer and the trainer will collect dust until late fall.

That said, more than 2 hours on Zwift is more than I ever want to endure. Most of my rides are 60-90min. Get what I need to do accomplished and get on with the rest of my day. I'd burn out too if I did more hours on the same few courses, grinding away the hours going nowhere. Zwift is a distraction, the most effective one I've ever seen, but even it has its limits.

Lately the number of riders online has dropped to about a quarter of what they were a month ago at the same times. This is likely due to the season transition in the hemispheres. The North is ramping up and the south is winding down. Given a choice, most people opt for the open road.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

Alaska Mike said:


> I really like Zwift. That's probably a good thing, because thanks to an early season illness, I'm going to be on Zwift a little bit longer than I anticipated. Once my health returns, the Zwift computer and the trainer will collect dust until late fall.
> 
> That said, more than 2 hours on Zwift is more than I ever want to endure. Most of my rides are 60-90min. Get what I need to do accomplished and get on with the rest of my day. I'd burn out too if I did more hours on the same few courses, grinding away the hours going nowhere. Zwift is a distraction, the most effective one I've ever seen, but even it has its limits.
> 
> Lately the number of riders online has dropped to about a quarter of what they were a month ago at the same times. This is likely due to the season transition in the hemispheres. The North is ramping up and the south is winding down. Given a choice, most people opt for the open road.


I got on Friday (it was raining outside) and was surprised how quickly the number of riders online has dropped off. I rode up the mountain alone. I am mostly done with Zwift now that spring has arrived but I may find myself on it a few times if we get a stretch of bad weather. I rarely stay on Zwift longer than an hour but during that time I am normally working pretty hard


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Alaska Mike said:


> Lately the number of riders online has dropped to about a quarter of what they were a month ago at the same times. This is likely due to the season transition in the hemispheres. The North is ramping up and the south is winding down. Given a choice, most people opt for the open road.


Funny, I said that would happen a month or two ago and Mgen21 asserted I was "showing my lack of knowledge of how the platform worked" and how I shouldn't post about something I have no experience with. Of course, this was all done while being completely oblivious to how duplicitous his claims were since he was talking about racing when he had no idea about that. 

Anyway, guess we'll have to wait until the bad weather hits again next fall for all of the "seriousness" to start again in earnest.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

pittcanna said:


> I can't believe this is an actual discussion, let alone worth 6 pages. Lately I have been in the anti-zwift camp, because at the end of the hour or two you have done a lot of work and gone nowhere.


I remember when it wasn't possible to have a post about any sort of indoor training without you giving a full run-down of every single available option. 

Seems you've come around to seeing it for what it is: a means to an end at best.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

pedalbiker said:


> I remember when it wasn't possible to have a post about any sort of indoor training without you giving a full run-down of every single available option.
> 
> Seems you've come around to seeing it for what it is: a means to an end at best.


Zwift is just a mindless distraction, and i got caught up in it. I won't say its a bad product per se, but it is a product trying to serve a need/want.

I could have spent the money on better winter gear, a fat bike, a 26er, lights, a external powermeter, etc etc or I could have gotten etap on my road bike.

The only thing i did was burn myself out.

The outdoors makes cycling better, and makes me cycle better.

My resolution came late this year and i am going to try to make till the winter without getting on the zwift/trainer and shoot for a true 5,000 miles.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Pitt, there is nothing inherently wrong with Zwift or any other similar product/service like CycleOps Virtual trainer, Bkool, Tacx, TrainerRoad, etc.

The issue is HOW and WHY you use it. You threw yourself well into the deep end and submerged yourself into it. That was your choice and not a reflection on what Zwift offers. You chose to do all those rides on your own.

IIRC, in one of your many threads on Zwift and indoor riding, one or more person on here predicted your current admission to burnout. It is a fine line to walk depending on what you want to get out of using something like Zwift.

It is a tool for training, fun and distraction. Using it in excess will lead to problems, no different if you do the same with outside riding. Overuse is overuse no matter where you do it.

Admit that it was your actions that lead to your current situation, not the fault of any software.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

pittcanna said:


> Zwift is just a mindless distraction, and i got caught up in it. I won't say its a bad product per se, but it is a product trying to serve a need/want.
> 
> The only thing i did was burn myself out.





Chader09 said:


> It is a tool for training, fun and distraction. Using it in excess will lead to problems, no different if you do the same with outside riding. Overuse is overuse no matter where you do it.
> 
> Admit that it was your actions that lead to your current situation, not the fault of any software.


 It seems like that's what he did.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Yes, to a point.

But calling it a "mindless distraction" seems an attempt to shift blame a bit. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## dupondavignon (Mar 21, 2018)

pedalbiker said:


> Racing in a video game is not a discipline, nor is it racing.
> 
> It's a video game.


Whatever you'll can say further, you look like intellectually immature.
Camped on his certainties and striked truths, so common on forums, because so easy, requiring no demonstration. There are paid zwift competitions, no matter what you say or think. That is a fact.



pedalbiker said:


> WTF would I do that when I can actually race them in a real race that they've been training for?


No you can't, because the population of zwift is worldwide, which is certainly not the case of your regional races.



> Scottie is a real bike racer, and I've raced him in real bike races in which you're not in your living room. And him playing Zwift doesn't negate the "video game in your living room" actuality.



Your first quote (the first of this message) shows the exclusive character: zwift would be neither discipline nor race. But would only be a video game. While one can go with the other: zwift is not ONLY a video game. We progress physically, and we can measure ourselves physically (and thus compare the IRL attributes) via zwift. While this is not the case of an exclusive video game, where one can only compare his qualities as a video game player.

Zwift races are different from races without virtual intermediaries (because they are also "IRL" each other, even if the IRL aspects of one and the other are not the same), but they are just as different. None is more legit because you would decide it.
If you plague cheaters, you can also plague those on the road, which is the reason why I don't race. Why take big risks (of falling), waste money and time in travel, to participate in what I call a circus? Being a figurant because you're beaten or doing evenly against guys who're less strong than you are, and because anti-doping officials don't do their jobs properly, if not corrupt? Why hang out with a mafia when you can leave people like that away from you?


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## dupondavignon (Mar 21, 2018)

pedalbiker said:


> Racing in a video game is not a discipline, nor is it racing.
> 
> It's a video game.


Whatever you'll can say further, you look like intellectually immature.
Camped on his certainties and striked truths, so common on forums, because so easy, requiring no demonstration. There are paid zwift competitions, no matter what you say or think. That is a fact.



pedalbiker said:


> WTF would I do that when I can actually race them in a real race that they've been training for?


No you can't, because the population of zwift is worldwide, which is certainly not the case of your regional races.



> Scottie is a real bike racer, and I've raced him in real bike races in which you're not in your living room. And him playing Zwift doesn't negate the "video game in your living room" actuality.



Your first quote (the first of this message) shows the exclusive character: zwift would be neither discipline nor race. But would only be a video game. While one can go with the other: zwift is not ONLY a video game. We progress physically, and we can measure ourselves physically (and thus compare the IRL attributes) via zwift. While this is not the case of an exclusive video game, where one can only compare his qualities as a video game player.

Zwift races are different from races without virtual intermediaries (because they are also "IRL" each other, even if the IRL aspects of one and the other are not the same), but they are just as different. None is more legit because you would decide it.
If you plague cheaters, you can also plague those on the road, which is the reason why I don't race. Why take big risks (of falling), waste money and time in travel, to participate in what I call a circus? Being a figurant because you're beaten or doing evenly against guys who're less strong than you are, and because anti-doping officials don't do their jobs properly, if not corrupt? Why hang out with a mafia when you can leave people like that away from you?


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## dupondavignon (Mar 21, 2018)

pittcanna said:


> Until i had a full blown burn-out.


Or "perhaps" you're just training bad/randomly, and just followed your ego each time you rided your bike on zwift? Trying to beat each user you saw on the map? Which, luckily, is impossible on the road because there are not enough users?


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## dupondavignon (Mar 21, 2018)

Concerning the "advantage" of not having to change gears. This is negligible, if not nil.
* When you are in someone's wheel, you adapt your power to stay there. Any excess power released (which happens very regularly) will be quickly counterbalanced in order to cancel it (slowing down, braking, stopping pedaling). So no, pedaling constantly at constant power is neither necessary nor even possible. And changing gears won't make you lose the wheel.
* When you change gear, you don't pedal. So you don't spend the energy that the one who pedals all the time spends. The total power released remains the same between the two individuals, only the distribution (in time) of the power released varying.


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