# will shimano ever go carbon??



## z ken

my shimano 10 speed have been great but part of me of was thinking: wouldn't be even better if shimano go carbon like campy or sram?? with the talent of shimano engineers, i'm sure they can make a lighter 10 speed than campy's record breaker + shimano also could make it look sexy. may be two different colors system. gold for the premium and blue for " cheaper " version. kind of like sram's force and rival. imaging this: golden crankset, shifter and f/r deraileurs. hmm sound great!! personally i like it but that's me and i'm sure someway in this world someone will disagree/agree with me. feel free to express your feeling. let's be honest, aren't you getting tire of silver/black drivetain?? i know i am. i want some bling bling on my drivetain.


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## Guest

If you are looking for bling for bling's sake, you won't be getting it from Shimano. Shimano have always stood for function first. Outside of the Japanese military establishment, they are the largest users of carbon fibre in Japan. They use huge amounts of it in the fishing and golf businesses. They are also among the world's best at forging aluminum. Look at the forged yet hollow Dura Ace cranks! Their competitors are still trying to figure out how they did that. They looked at carbon for the DA 7800 group and concluded, rightly in my opinion, that aluminum alloy does a better job and is less costly to boot.

Rest assured that they will fully investigate the potential for carbon to be included in their lineup when they get to updating Dura Ace. If it meets their criteria and represents a performance step up over aluminum alloy, you will see. If it doesn't, then you won't. It's as simple as that!

I, for one, am quite happy that they haven't chased the carbon fad like many others, and here I am thinking of FSA. Look at how many issues they have had with their cranks. Tom Boonen even attributed his problems with his chain derailling in the early sprints in the '04 Tour to his flexy FSA cranks! He hasn't ridden carbon since - though this may change as Campy moved to the UT carbon record cranks. We'll see.


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## I am The Edge

gold anything is teh suck.


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## z ken

that's cool, folks. since i really like dura ace 10 and i thought it'd be perfect if it's a carbon instead of alu. may be i was wrong. stay tune hopefully shimano would go carbon in the near future?? 2008?? yes i still think gold driventain looks good. personal thing.


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## tigoat

Having just built a new bike with SRAM Force drivetrain recently, I am already getting bored looking at all the carbon fiber components. I hope Shimano will not go down to the same path like SRAM and Campy did. I think it would look best if Shimano could continue using ligthweight aluminum on their groupsets and finish everything with a high quality polishing job. 



z ken said:


> my shimano 10 speed have been great but part of me of was thinking: wouldn't be even better if shimano go carbon like campy or sram?? with the talent of shimano engineers, i'm sure they can make a lighter 10 speed than campy's record breaker + shimano also could make it look sexy. may be two different colors system. gold for the premium and blue for " cheaper " version. kind of like sram's force and rival. imaging this: golden crankset, shifter and f/r deraileurs. hmm sound great!! personally i like it but that's me and i'm sure someway in this world someone will disagree/agree with me. feel free to express your feeling. let's be honest, aren't you getting tire of silver/black drivetain?? i know i am. i want some bling bling on my drivetain.


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## z ken

togoat: i think you miss my point. not only i would like shimano go carbon but with added colors ( gold and blue version ) add bling factor and i think it could be a real hot sell. may be silver/white isn't my taste. men like black/carbon and it would be perfect to add some colors, say be some gold/blue stripes?? any thoughts??


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## filtersweep

I'll bet you like interior decorating, too....

The more "fashion" that is added, the more out of fashion it will look in only a few years. I am still riding DA9 on my bike, and aside from having a nicer looking crank than the newer stuff, it still looks modern on my bike. It is relatively timeless in its design. Secondly, I don't even like black. It looks terrible when it gets scratched. After ten thousand miles, I generally wear the finish off spots in the components. Silver is great, since it is silver to the bone.


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## cydswipe

*Here's a black Dura Ace set-up.*

Lance got the one off from Shimano for his retirement. All black Dura Ace. Hard to see it, the last pic shows the cranks etc. better.
http://www.thepaceline.com/members/lancenewsitem.aspx?cid=2768
That's about as close to carbon as you'll get for now.


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## filtersweep

I bet that crank will look like hamburger after a few thousand miles.



cydswipe said:


> Lance got the one off from Shimano for his retirement. All black Dura Ace. Hard to see it, the last pic shows the cranks etc. better.
> http://www.thepaceline.com/members/lancenewsitem.aspx?cid=2768
> That's about as close to carbon as you'll get for now.


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## z ken

filtersweep: no i don't like interior decorating. hahah when i see lance holding that " new?? " shimano crankset, it kind of look cheesy. hopefully it's not the new shimano dura ace. shimano can do better than that. everyone is different. some like carbon and some don't ( tomboon doesn't even use carbon crankset or frame on his bike. he said he's bad experience in 2004 )


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## Mike Prince

They already have. They make a carbon tubular wheelset. Obviously they don't see the functional need for it anywhere else (not that this is a bad thing).


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## z ken

may be shimano is slowly going with carbon?? hmm the carbon wheelset could be the stepping stone of what to come. stay tune!!


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## Clevor

I don't know if using carbon will reduce the weight of components such as derailleurs/shifter levers that much; I think other manufacturers use it for the bling factor. I have bikes with both Record and Shimano components and like to believe I can offer a bit of objectivity here. Campy stuff is light because they are so simple in design with few moving parts. Shimano crams their stuff with whatever technology can allow; they have to use plastic to keep the weight down. One bike mag said Shimano shifts better under load.

All carbon fiber will do is raise the prices of stuff (as do ceramic bearings). I just bought a Campy Bora wheelset and took a look at the innards from the manual. Hardly anything there! It's like a toy wheelset. What cost $2400? The carbon fiber? The massive decals?? And I got a good price on mine as they usually run $2800-3100.

I suppose it harkens back to what my teacher used to say in that poetry class in college: Simplicity is an Achievement :lol:. 

I like how Shimano does not lie about weights. I can believe their new carbon fiber tubular wheelset weighs a relatively porky 1500 gms, because that's what it takes to build durability into the thing. My Boras are rated at 1305 but came in at an actual 1348. Yeah, so do the Reynolds and Zipps out there rated at 1285 gms really come in at that weight?  

As for the DA crank, I personally believe the crank would be less stiff if made of hollow carbon fiber; I think forged hollow Alu is stiffer and that's why they are designed that way. I for one have not jumped on the Campy UT crank system because the dust hasn't cleared on them yet; there are still reviews to be made on comparative stiffness and those carbon fiber cranks are hollow. Let's see how they hold up in three years time. Have people forgotten the breakage problem with the Stronglink Pulsions?


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## z ken

clevor: well said and i must say you're by far the most " impressive " bike-geek i've seen here. i mean that in a good way. hahah you got campy's boras?? man, that's one hot wheelset i'm dying to get but couldn't find a " bargain " deal ( less than 2k ) you can check out the thread under " wheel and tires-need advice primary on climbing " on this website. please report how's boras so far. i bet it's awesome since robbie mcewen and alejandro valverde use them.


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: well said and i must say you're by far the most " impressive " bike-geek i've seen here. i mean that in a good way. hahah you got campy's boras?? man, that's one hot wheelset i'm dying to get but couldn't find a " bargain " deal ( less than 2k ) you can check out the thread under " wheel and tires-need advice primary on climbing " on this website. please report how's boras so far. i bet it's awesome since robbie mcewen and alejandro valverde use them.


The Bora Ultras are all about the decals. I mean would anyone take 'em off and ride them?  Take 'em off and the wheelset looks plain Jane, like Lightweights, but not as light. The layout of carbon fiber twill and clearcoat gloss looks nicer than Lightweights though.

The wheelset for the Dream C50 I'm building needed to be Show as well as Go, so had to go with the outrageous Boras. They will be shod with Conti Comp GP tubulars. I'm not impressed with the weight actually as the clincher wheelset I got from Ligero weighs about the same! But those clinchers are built on Alex Crostini rims (Taiwan, etc).

I checked prices and $2,399 at BikesAreCool are the lowest right now for Boras (2006s), plus free freight. If you want them tommorrow from the usual sources expect to spend $2,800-3,100. Somebody just dropped $3,200 on Ebay for 2007 Boras but I don't think they are any different. Saw somebody selling Fulcrums for $1,800 but they simply don't have the bling factor as Boras, nor I think the Ti pawl. 'Cause of the 'good' price of the Boras from BikesAreCool, I'm getting the ceramic bearing upgrade and red hub caps but only to be used as spares (or until I get bored with the metal bearings).

McEwen and Valverde use Boras because they are sponsored by Campy. Also the Bianchi team I believe. Because of the lack of parts, they are ridiculously easy to repair, 'cept the truing maybe.


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## z ken

clevor: so far you've not mention how's the ride feel?? sounded like you're not 100% satisfy?? i would like to know more how boras perform in the mountains?? i live in an area loaded with mountains ( 19 miles with 7-8% average climb ) and even as 26% climb in sonoma in northern california ( you can go to chainreactionbicycles.com and scroll all the way down to " mape and ride " and click on sonoma pass. it got the pics. and maps of infamous climb in northern ca. ) colnago c-50?? just a personal thing, i find colnago NOT attractive at all ( bad colors scheme ( actually make me dizzy, seriously ) and hell of expensive ) so far my trek madone, BMC and cevelo are the best looking bikes. ugliest?? that's an easy ones: bianchi and LOOK, aka gay rides. hahah just a thought.


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: so far you've not mention how's the ride feel?? sounded like you're not 100% satisfy?? i would like to know more how boras perform in the mountains?? i live in an area loaded with mountains ( 19 miles with 7-8% average climb ) and even as 26% climb in sonoma in northern california ( you can go to chainreactionbicycles.com and scroll all the way down to " mape and ride " and click on sonoma pass. it got the pics. and maps of infamous climb in northern ca.


I got three bikes, and the Boras will go on a dream C50 build that will take time to build, so I haven't ridden them yet. I could put them on my Giant but I'd have to swap the brake pads out. Tubulars, while having a more logical design, are not practical for everyday rides due to the hassle of fixing flats. And the Boras, with the 50 mm rim, work best at speed. I hear they are fast though.

Some people say no diff, or the ride on tubulars are smooth and silky, but there is a substantial diff between the clinchers you and I ride: the carbon rims, the 130-170 psi tire pressures, the tubular design of the carcass, etc. I'm sure the ride will be sweet! 



z ken said:


> colnago c-50?? just a personal thing, i find colnago NOT attractive at all ( bad colors scheme ( actually make me dizzy, seriously ) and hell of expensive ) so far my trek madone, BMC and cevelo are the best looking bikes. ugliest?? that's an easy ones: bianchi and LOOK, aka gay rides. hahah just a thought.


Well, since you got me started again on heresy, I agree as a lot of the Colnago paint schemes are garish and puerile. When I first got into road biking and looked at the fruity paint jobs on Colnagos, I said: Is this for real? But my C50 is a theme bike so I got the Oscar Friere WC scheme. The Cinelli RAM2 bars will be also have a matching WC paint scheme (done by Miro). The last piece of the puzzle was the Fizik Limited Ed saddle in WC scheme but that I got through special order. So I don't mind the paint job so much. Shah over at the Colnago forums has done the same thing, but I got some tricks up my sleeve that no one has done on a build like this but it's a secret for now :wink5:. Plus he got Zipps and I got Boras :smilewinkgrin:.


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## z ken

clevor: you got boras and still no " test ride " yet?? man, that's like buying lamborghini and park it in your garage. if i would got my hand on boras, i would go outside and ride atleast 10 miles and only rains or hurricane would stop me from doing so. hehhe what's your 3rd bike ( beside colnago and giants )?? hopefully it's not look or bianchi ( if it is by any chance, i mean no offense ) so what is/are your current riding wheels?? i only got one road bike: 06 trek madone 5.2 SL ( midnight blue ) but with full dura ace 10 instead of stock ultegra triple. everything else is stock beside saddle ( SLR's 135 grams ) i use orb pedals ( 98 grams for BOTH pedals--great for climbing ) soon i'll replace my bontrager race-lite wheeset ( 1690 gms ) with either boras ( 1340 gms?? ) or zipp 303 ( 1170 gms?? ) may be in future might also consider replacing trek's xxx-light fork for easton slx. for handlebar/stem, i really like FSA's plasma but it's real expensive and no one is selling it for " cheap " on e-bay ( can you blame them )


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: you got boras and still no " test ride " yet?? man, that's like buying lamborghini and park it in your garage. if i would got my hand on boras, i would go outside and ride atleast 10 miles and only rains or hurricane would stop me from doing so. hehhe what's your 3rd bike ( beside colnago and giants )?? hopefully it's not look or bianchi ( if it is by any chance, i mean no offense ) so what is/are your current riding wheels?? i only got one road bike: 06 trek madone 5.2 SL ( midnight blue ) but with full dura ace 10 instead of stock ultegra triple. everything else is stock beside saddle ( SLR's 135 grams ) i use orb pedals ( 98 grams for BOTH pedals--great for climbing ) soon i'll replace my bontrager race-lite wheeset ( 1690 gms ) with either boras ( 1340 gms?? ) or zipp 303 ( 1170 gms?? ) may be in future might also consider replacing trek's xxx-light fork for easton slx. for handlebar/stem, i really like FSA's plasma but it's real expensive and no one is selling it for " cheap " on e-bay ( can you blame them )


Z ken, since this is your post, I guess it's OK to go off topic .

I am new to tubulars, so gotta deal with the learning curve. Plus I've had the Boras for all of three days. Mainly been wiping the drool off them. Maybe you are a vet with tubulars, but I'm a newbie so need to find out if the Tufo tape works as well as adhesive with the Contis. You would not want to have a tire roll over at speed (ouch!).

Since I won't ride the C50 much as it's a show-and-go bike (like a show car - drive 'er around the block mainly), I can put on $130 tires; it should last me quite a while. I'll buy one tire first on the front, install it dry and see if it leaks. I'll also learn how to install the tire without the tacky adhesive getting in the way.

If I was riding the wheelset a lot I might consider Tufo tubeless tubulars, though you can still flat.

Now if I get a terminal disease and got 6 months to live, maybe I'd ride the crap out of the bike every day, but the purty paint on the C50s chip a lot and would hate to wreck the paint job on that $800 Cinelli RAM2 bar in a crash :cryin:.

I got a Giant TCR Comp 1 and a Douglas Precision Ti as my everyday rides. The Giant is my weightweenie build, currently at 15.1 gms, and target weight is 14.8 by switching out the porky FSA MegaEXO crank for a DA. I'll leave the Ultegra shifters on for now as I'm happy with 14.8 lbs. The key to the low weight is the Ligero Wheelworks clincher rims which use Alex Crostini 2.1 (?) SC7000 rims, Sapim X-Ray spokes, and White Industries hubset. Ligero musta hand-picked these rims (since the build was delayed a while) since the set weighed 1330 gms, and that is with rim tape! I am using Pave Veloflex tires and Michelin UL tubes so the entire wheelset weighs 1880 gms - that's with tires and tubes!

The Douglas Ti is my beater, set up with Record triple crank, Record front and rear derailleurs, Chorus brakes and shifters. If you're wondering why I set this bike up with Campy, it's because I won't ride the C50 with full Record much! The only way to experience Campy is on the Douglas Ti. Plus my two ATB bikes got Shimano obviously.

I could put the Boras on the Giant, but don't wanna switch the pads. The Boras are Pro Tour stuff, where you got a support car that can change out the wheelset in a blink if you got a flat. They also eat up brake pads a lot, and I don't know how the carbon fiber braking surface of the rim will last long term. I hear the pros have ridden the same set for three seasons, but at that price, we rec riders need to get more mileage out of them than that rrr:.

As for your Trek build, you're correct in that the wheelset is the best place to lose weight. Most of the carbon fiber tubulars by Shimano, Reynolds, Zipp, Easton run around $1800 anyway; if it was me, I'd come up with more cash if I can get Boras for $2400. But if I had to pay $2900 for Boras, the Eastons look real nice and light and are much cheaper. 'Course nothing has the WOW factor as Boras. But you have to believe the advertised weights, which are around 1200-1300 for Zip, Reynolds, and Easton, and I don't believe them.

Campy stuff are always at least 3% over advertised weight. A guy over at WeightWeenies said his Campy Hyperon Ultra clinchers actually weigh 1288, but are advertised at 40 gms less. My Boras weigh 1348 and are advertised at 1305; the manual has them listed at 1290, probably for the early models without the round spokes for dynamic balancing.


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## z ken

clevor: in this " new " thread. it's you and me. no one care to chime in their thoughts or idea. now i see the whole pics. so when are you going to " test ride " your boras?? this weekend may be?? please don't forget to send me a note when you finished your first ride. i bet it accel like a rocket and be careful out there. hate to see you trash your boras. heheh you can join me and thousand of people on " trek " forum. it's one the hottest topic right now in this website as well on the road regarding trek's new project, silo. check it out and would love to see you there. trust me it's wild and crazy, err in a good way.


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: in this " new " thread. it's you and me. no one care to chime in their thoughts or idea. now i see the whole pics. so when are you going to " test ride " your boras?? this weekend may be?? please don't forget to send me a note when you finished your first ride. i bet it accel like a rocket and be careful out there. hate to see you trash your boras. heheh you can join me and thousand of people on " trek " forum. it's one the hottest topic right now in this website as well on the road regarding trek's new project, silo. check it out and would love to see you there. trust me it's wild and crazy, err in a good way.


Hey Z ken, regardless of whether it's ethical or moral or not, you Trek-kies must be happy about Basso signing with Discovery. If he is allowed to ride the grand tours, 'guess Trek/Shimano/Bontrager will continue to rule the roost for awhile!


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## z ken

clevor: yeah the rich just get richer. i do love my trek and disco. team with basso or not ( only pro america team and i've to support them through thick or thin ) but not a fan of bontrager. the wheels, stem, handle bar, seatpost and specially saddle are terrible and for sure they've no bling-factor. about shimano, other pro teams use them ( t-mobile, robobank ) and i hope shimano would one day go carbon. one could only dream. don't forget to report your post ride of boras. can't wait.


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## giordana93

clevor,
if you are new to tubulars, I hope you know to stretch them first, before attempting to mount them. sorry if that is insultingly basic, but no one can usually forget the first time they glued tubulars, esp. with that old mastic!
ps I was trolling this thread to hunt out the campy DA debate, as I'm thinking of finally going from old da 7400 8 speed to a drive train made in this century, though I am not convinced it will be that much of an improvement. cheers


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## Clevor

giordana93 said:


> clevor,
> if you are new to tubulars, I hope you know to stretch them first, before attempting to mount them. sorry if that is insultingly basic, but no one can usually forget the first time they glued tubulars, esp. with that old mastic!
> ps I was trolling this thread to hunt out the campy DA debate, as I'm thinking of finally going from old da 7400 8 speed to a drive train made in this century, though I am not convinced it will be that much of an improvement. cheers


I heard it's best to mount them on the rims dry first to stretch them and see if the tube is defective. I read Zinn's book about wrestling them around the rim and how to do it.

To be fair, there are some nice things about Campy, mainly that you have unlimited trim adjustments on the front derailleur. I have a triple front Record and I can't believe the thing actually works, there is only a hinge and two screws it seems. Adjusting the front is black magic sometimes with Shimano.

A lot of snobs enjoy flaming Bicycling Mag, but those guys use a lot of testers and are not afraid to say good things about cheap bikes or anything not Italian. I've read in the past their comparisons between Campy and Shimano. They feel the Shimano is smoother shifting, easier to maintain, and shifts better under load.

If a guy has two identical bikes, one with full Record and one with DA, he should ride the two up a steep hill starting from his biggest gear, stressing the drivetrain, and see which one shifts smoother .

My main complaint about Shimano are some of the prices. I mean I have not seen DA shifters under $400! Their triple DA cranks are expensive also. You can get Record shifters on sale for around $250, and since the triple Records are discontinued, a crank for around $220. Same with brakes; you can get Record brakes for around $150 (non-skeletons).


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## z ken

93: you didn't notice a " major " improvement from 8 to 10 speed.?? try going for more than 5 mph. no offense. also try some steep climb ( 7%-10% and 10 miles long ) you'll definitely feel the " improvement ".


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## giordana93

z ken said:


> 93: you didn't notice a " major " improvement from 8 to 10 speed.?? try going for more than 5 mph. no offense. also try some steep climb ( 7%-10% and 10 miles long ) you'll definitely feel the " improvement ".


no offense taken. so explain to me how a 39x19 is faster when it's on a 10 speed cassette vs. an 8 speed. my 13x23 vs a 12x25: I'm strong enough not to need a 25 around here (Cleveland east side). I spin out my 53x13 a bit faster than a 12, but who's pedaling after you hit 38 mph? on the other hand, how much mileage are you getting out of your 10 speed chain? about half of the old 8 speed. I learned to shift before indexing with down tube shifter so I know how to shift under load. there are no 10 mile climbs within 500 miles of here, and certainly not at 10%. for some people, 10 speed is not an improvement


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## California L33

z ken, 

If you're looking for color, why not go with (epoxy) paint or have it anodized? Naturally you'd have to mask off the teeth, but you could change it every couple of years as your taste changes- purple, black, orange, red, etc. And of course for the ultimate gold- real gold plating. You add enough real gold and you'll need those ultra light wheels


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## z ken

l33: my point is i would love to see shimano go carbon with their new and lighter drivetain in 2008?? i'm tired and sick of looking at my dura ace drivetain which i paid alot of cash for it ( upgraded one piece at the time begining with the crank and finished it with brakes ) and none of it parts are carbon?? that is sad. i've to work many OT and ended up with alum. make no mistake dura ace 10 is fantastic but just want to see more carbon. don't you agree?? about gold/blue colors, it would be an ice on cake if shimano decide to do it.

93: my bad i didn't know you're from ohio and should've judge you after finding out where you live and your surrounding. may be one of these day you should come west ( california ) and you'll love it here. high mountains ( as steep as 26%?? ) no-rain/snow weather. trust me you'll become weight-weenie, just like me or riders will do laugh at you ( yeah we people here in california are spoiled w/ soured behavior ) here performance is second while looks and bling bling is # 1 ( 80% of riders here ride trek madone ) i know it's sad but that's the way it's here--west coast style.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: my point is i would love to see shimano go carbon with their new and lighter drivetain in 2008?? i'm tired and sick of looking at my dura ace drivetain which i paid alot of cash for it ( upgraded one piece at the time begining with the crank and finished it with brakes ) and none of it parts are carbon?? that is sad. i've to work many OT and ended up with alum. make no mistake dura ace 10 is fantastic but just want to see more carbon. don't you agree?? about gold/blue colors, it would be an ice on cake if shimano decide to do it.
> 
> 93: my bad i didn't know you're from ohio and should've judge you after finding out where you live and your surrounding. may be one of these day you should come west ( california ) and you'll love it here. high mountains ( as steep as 26%?? ) no-rain/snow weather. trust me you'll become weight-weenie, just like me or riders will do laugh at you ( yeah we people here in california are spoiled w/ soured behavior ) here performance is second while looks and bling bling is # 1 ( 80% of riders here ride trek madone ) i know it's sad but that's the way it's here--west coast style.


 The question becomes why do you want do see the colored carbon? You already called Dura Ace fantastic. If you want to see colors, there are a couple of ways to do it without carbon- and if you went with epoxy paint or andodization you'd be totally original. If you need to see colored carbon I guess you'll have to wait. 

"but just want to see more carbon. don't you agree??"

I'm not sure if I want to see carbon for carbon's sake. I do like to see technological advances even if my cycling skills can't take advantage of them, so I'm not opposed, but if it's less durable and raises costs then no. I've had Shimano drive trains since 1977, and they've always been good, and they have made their share of break throughs. I don't think they're "holding back" for the sake of tradition. As others have pointed out the Shimano engineers are no strangers to either carbon or metal. I can't help but think they're carefully considering their materials options. If they're listening blue/gold wouldn't be bad, but cast my vote for green, purple, and red. (I think I'll stick with silver/black for a while). 

Do you really think 80% of the high end riders in California are on Madones? When it comes to "dream bikes" I've seen a wide array here in the East Bay- Cervelo, Colnago, Specialized S-Works, Trek Madone, Cannondale, Seven, Felt, Independent Fabrications, and Kestrel- though there are a couple I've only seen at dealerships. Naturally there are more Treks and Specializeds, but I wouldn't say any one maker has a clear majority, and I wouldn't say no to any of them. 

I found a web page with gradients for various Bay Area climbs= 

http://graphics.stanford.edu/~lucasp/bike-grade.html


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## z ken

l33: yeah i could hire some " artist " and paint gold on ALL my dura-ace 10 and eventhough it'll look great ( i think ) but it's still alum. i'm thinking swifting from shimano to campy then paint my campy record with gold color. i'll loose some weights ( may be 250 grams ) but will cost me almost 2K ( parts and paint labor ) is it worth it i asked myself that question constantly?? yes i got the cash but want to spent wisely. about california and madone thing, people here are posses with armstrong. everything that's related to him ( shoes, books, dvd to name a few ) people will buy it. so you checked out bay area's rides/mapes. what do you think about mt. hamiton ( a mere 2 miles from i live )?? every once a while i love to " take on " mr. hamilton and it feels real good at the top. between is alot of pain and sweat ( 19 miles, 4200 feet elevation and 7-8 % grades ) i'm not a natural climber ( more of sprinter ) and usually finished in the middle of pack eventhough my bike might be lighter. haven't got chance to take on Sanora Pass ( near sacramento ) and it's infamous 26% gradient. it's 20+ miles with some point it'll be 10% and couple of " murderous 26% ". so shifting skill will come in real handy. 13-27 cassette is must-have and may be triple chainring?? did i mention it's 9600+ feet elevation??


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## giordana93

z ken said:


> lhere performance is second while looks and bling bling is # 1 ( 80% of riders here ride trek madone ) i know it's sad but that's the way it's here--west coast style.


it all makes sense now but I hate to break the news to you: your destiny, should you choose to accept it, is to go EURO. I would say just ITALIAN, but have to be more inclusive because I have your new ride: get rid of that dorky Trek--I'm sorry, but that's just not bling to me. bling has to be exclusive, and in spite of the price tag, trek just ain't gonna cut it, au contraire how many dufus dudes go out and buy a $5000 trek to tool around at 10mph all dressed up in full discovery kits and I love lance tshirts (and underwear, with lines showing through the skin suit!). seriously, you need campy--record if you can afford it, since it's uber--bling, and at least chorus, draped on an italian bling frame, or--and this is why I said euro--an orbea carbon, which is all painted over, but those who are supposed to know, know. the japanese have style and function, but not bling. gotta be latin blood for that


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## Mike Prince

z ken said:


> i'm tired and sick of looking at my dura ace drivetain which i paid alot of cash for it ( upgraded one piece at the time begining with the crank and finished it with brakes ) and none of it parts are carbon??


 Well, what did you think that shiny silver stuff was on the components when you bought them? You act surprised and betrayed that there's no carbon. With the exception of wheels/rims, I believe that Shimano engineers see little functional benefit to putting carbon on most other components. I think that if they were going to jump on the carbon bandwagon with Dura-Ace they would have done it to 'keep up' with Campy when Record went to carbon a few years ago.

Shimano has been very innovative with their advanced metal forging techniques and I would be surprised if they suddenly abandoned it to chase the carbon craze. Their sales certainly don't suffer as a result.

Not sure I follow your desire to put blue and yellow carbon components on your Trek. I get a vision of a pimped out/souped up Honda Civic when I think that one through, not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but...


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## z ken

mike: i've owned shimano dura ace for about 3 years now and i think it's about time shimano go carbon. srams sure did and it's working for them ( sale ) the main reason dura ace is selling well b/c teams like robobank, discovery channel and CSC use them. i do agree that dura ace shift better than campy or sram ( or i heard. never have use campy or sram ) like cars, every 3 or 4 years manufactures make some " adjustments " on their products. when was the last time shimano made some changes to their drivetain?? so i think it's the time. if shimano would one day ( 2008?? ) go carbon, it could mean the end of sram?? also could make campy to drop prices on their products ( since everyone will jump on the hype/bandwagon ) throw in gold/blue or whatever color versions, it'll push them over the top for good. shimano don't necessary need to call it dura ace, may be..hmm say US2 ( ultra-smooth shift for gold version ) and S3 ( super-smooth shift ) shimano S3, sound catchy. just a thought. disagree??


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## Mike Prince

z ken said:


> mike: i've owned shimano dura ace for about 3 years now and i think it's about time shimano go carbon. srams sure did and it's working for them ( sale ) the main reason dura ace is selling well b/c teams like robobank, discovery channel and CSC use them. i do agree that dura ace shift better than campy or sram ( or i heard. never have use campy or sram ) like cars, every 3 or 4 years manufactures make some " adjustments " on their products. when was the last time shimano made some changes to their drivetain?? so i think it's the time. if shimano would one day ( 2008?? ) go carbon, it could mean the end of sram?? also could make campy to drop prices on their products ( since everyone will jump on the hype/bandwagon ) throw in gold/blue or whatever color versions, it'll push them over the top for good. shimano don't necessary need to call it dura ace, may be..hmm say US2 ( ultra-smooth shift for gold version ) and S3 ( super-smooth shift ) shimano S3, sound catchy. just a thought. disagree??


Shimano last changed D/A in 2002 when they went to 10 speed and they have continued to tweak with the addition of a D/A triple and the universal compact crankset as well as wheels. Record did much the same as they intoduced 10 speed in 2000 or 2001 and made a 'refinement' with the introduction of carbon cranksets in '03 or so and now somewhat of a line shake-up with the introduction of Ultra-Torque and the revamping of many other groups.

The main reason Shimano sells well is that it's easy to get aftermarket wheels and chains that work with it - in effect they have established a standard. SRAM followed this by making their stuff work with Shimano wheels, not Campy. I think you overestimate the impact of race teams on the common consumer - there are lots of teams on Campy too and sponsorship, not rider preferences are the reason that pro teams use what they use.

As far as Shimano displacing SRAM if they introduce carbon cranksets and components, I think you are delusional. SRAM has a pretty good foothold in the market from MTB and aftermarket chains, so I think they are on the road scene to stay and will take some of Shimano's market share.

What would I like to see Shimano do with D/A? Redesign their shifter design to be a bit cleaner (hide the cables) and more maintainable, make the new cranksets a bit more traditional looking, stuff like that. Carbon is not part of the equation for me. I personally prefer a more traditional look and don't see a single advantage to carbon cranks, derailleur bits, etc. It may impress the boys in the parking lot or at the coffee shop, but on the road no one cares. I'd buy a lifetime frame before I ran out to buy the latest greatest components and that's why I am still on 9 speed D/A on a custom made steel frame - it works great and to me there's no compelling reason to get anything "better" right now - there's over 25K miles on the components and they still work as new.

Short answer, yes I disagree with you. If you want carbon, get Campy or SRAM Force. And an FYI - if you have read reviews of Force/Rival, the rear shifting is rated superior to Campy or Shimano - and the all-alloy Rival group is recommended as the smart buy since it is functionally identical to Force for about 1/2 the price and a 100 gram weight penalty.


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## z ken

mike: like i said it's personal thing. some like carbon and some don't ( tom boonen still this day use alum. crank on his bike. he said he had a bad experience w/ carbon in 04 ) yes alot of other teams use campy and sram but how many of these teams are winning like CSC, T-Mobile, robobank or disco?? people do believe if lance or basso use it, it must be the best since wining is everything in this business. who want to use " second tier " products?? about sram, if shimano would go with my plan, it could kill them in road market while i don't care about moutain bikes stuff ( speed freak here ) all and all i really like to see shimano go carbon, sram have and the result are great. imaging shimano and campy become one, sort of speak...that day could be closer than it appears [ drooling ]


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## toyota

Mike Prince said:


> Shimano last changed D/A in 2002 when they went to 10 speed and they have continued to tweak with the addition of a D/A triple and the universal compact crankset as well as wheels. Record did much the same as they intoduced 10 speed in 2000 or 2001 and made a 'refinement' with the introduction of carbon cranksets in '03 or so and now somewhat of a line shake-up with the introduction of Ultra-Torque and the revamping of many other groups.


 Shimano Dura-Ace went to 10 speed on 2004 model bikes.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: yeah i could hire some " artist " and paint gold on ALL my dura-ace 10 and eventhough it'll look great ( i think ) but it's still alum. i'm thinking swifting from shimano to campy then paint my campy record with gold color. i'll loose some weights ( may be 250 grams ) but will cost me almost 2K ( parts and paint labor ) is it worth it i asked myself that question constantly?? yes i got the cash but want to spent wisely. about california and madone thing, people here are posses with armstrong. everything that's related to him ( shoes, books, dvd to name a few ) people will buy it. so you checked out bay area's rides/mapes. what do you think about mt. hamiton ( a mere 2 miles from i live )?? every once a while i love to " take on " mr. hamilton and it feels real good at the top. between is alot of pain and sweat ( 19 miles, 4200 feet elevation and 7-8 % grades ) i'm not a natural climber ( more of sprinter ) and usually finished in the middle of pack eventhough my bike might be lighter. haven't got chance to take on Sanora Pass ( near sacramento ) and it's infamous 26% gradient. it's 20+ miles with some point it'll be 10% and couple of " murderous 26% ". so shifting skill will come in real handy. 13-27 cassette is must-have and may be triple chainring?? did i mention it's 9600+ feet elevation??


Two grand to loose 250 grams? Only if your name is Basso  You'll probably feel better if you give it to charity.

I've never ridden Mt. Hamilton. Diablo is right in my back yard- 3800 feet in around 10 miles with two different routes to the midway point, then one road to the top. I don't ride it often because I don't like to strain my knees (up to a 16% grade), but it is beautiful. You can also ride over it without going to the top two different ways- one is half on fire roads, so not for roadies, and it has some brutal climbs- did that one once on my Dakar and only took a water bottle, two cokes, one candy bar and a banana. That was a mistake, but I made it. I can't really imagine packing up the road bike to go somewhere to ride. That seems to be more of a mountain bike thing, but I guess I'm lucky that there's so much variety around here. 

I guess people buy all the Lance stuff, but I've noticed scorn from some of the exotic riders on anything with a name brand- including Trek Madone and Specialized S-Works. By the time you start laying out multiple thousands for a road bike I can't imagine there's a great deal of difference between any of them. Even Lance was only on the Madone because Trek paid him the most. He would have been in yellow on a 1968 Schwinn Varsity. My roadie is just over a thousand as it sits, and the only thing I could ask for is lighter weight for the few times I do climb. Maybe at the end of the model year I'll see if anyone has any good deals on carbon.


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## z ken

l33: don't worry about your 1k bike. as long as you ride, you'll get my respect as well other as roadies. you thought mt. diablo was tough, try sonora pass in Sonoma ( 20+ miles with some 10% grade and its infamous murderous 26% and 9600+ feet elevation?? and no i haven't try it and will be real scare to try ) ouch!! that's gotta hurt!! infact today i climb mt. hamilton and trust me it always hurt everytime even with my madone/dura ace. could really use 303 ( 1175 gms ) rather than my heavy bontrager race-lite ( 1690 gms )


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## z ken

if shimano doesn't go carbon by 08 i might have no choice but to switch to full campy by then. i know it's going to cost me but i'll atleast finally have a drivetain that are carbon not aluminum and may be i might add some " real " gold color to my drivetain. oh shimano, please make my dream come true [ fingers crossed ]


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## Clevor

California L33 said:


> Even Lance was only on the Madone because Trek paid him the most. He would have been in yellow on a 1968 Schwinn Varsity. My roadie is just over a thousand as it sits, and the only thing I could ask for is lighter weight for the few times I do climb. Maybe at the end of the model year I'll see if anyone has any good deals on carbon.


I think Discovery kinda spurns the Euro stuff and try to go with USA as much as possible, thus the use of Trek bikes and Bontrager (well Bontrager is affiliated with Trek). Plus, Trek is bound to sponsor a team so might as well be Discovery. As for using Shimano, I think Lance has a promo deal with them, but he might actually prefer them anyway. Discovery used to use Mavics before they went with Bontrager wheels, so they obviously like to beat their own path to glory (having Lance's VO2 Max helps). Before Lance used his own personal Lightweights, he rode Mavic SLs up the Alpe D-Huez one year (!). I have a set of Mavic Elites that came stock on my Giant and I like 'em - except the 1770 gm weight. They are on my Ti bike. I suppose the guys who bash Treks are the same ones who love to bash Mavic.


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> if shimano doesn't go carbon by 08 i might have no choice but to switch to full campy by then. i know it's going to cost me but i'll atleast finally have a drivetain that are carbon not aluminum and may be i might add some " real " gold color to my drivetain. oh shimano, please make my dream come true [ fingers crossed ]


I wouldn't yearn that much for those greener pastures . . .

I personally like the platinum patina of DA because it matches the smoked silver on my 2005 TCR Comp 1 perfectly! One thing I don't like about Campy Record is I think the black CF clashes with the silver on the derailleurs. On top of that, the latest CF coming out of the Far East has a marbelized look. On the rear derailleurs, the twill weave of the CF on the body doesn't match the marble CF on the pulley arm. 

You can build a damn light bike on DA. On the (off) topic of CF in cranks, it doesn't nescessarily make them lighter or stiffer. DA is the reason. My 2006 (yes, that's last year folks) Record CT crank weighs 555 gms. Advertised weigh is 540. The stock bolts weigh 34 gms. A Record BB weighs 195 gms. Add that up and it comes out to around 784 gms. Imagine, this is the LIGHTEST possible pre-2007 crank setup from Campy, as my CT has 50/34 chainrings. What is a DA advertised at? 740 gms I believe. And of course, it's not even a fair comparison, as a Record 53/39 double probably weighs 20-25 gms more! Moreover, the DA is a stiffer crank based on tests done by a German source last year. The DA was second only to FSA, a crank which weighs almost 100 gms more. 

How much did a Record double setup cost last year? You could have paid around $500 for the crank and $100 for the BB. That's $600. The everyday price of a DA 7800 is $434 at Performance, and on certain days the price drops to $384 and you can use a 10% discount certificate. I just bought my DA 7800 last week for $233 (I used $138 in Performance points for an additional discount). And of course the BB is included in that price. I will check the actual weight when I get it.

Even on the newly designed 2007 Campy UT cranks, they are rated 695 gms complete. Figure the usual 3-5% extra for actual weight on Campy stuff and you come out with maybe 715 gms. The ole DA is only 25 gms heavier. The Alu DA has certainly held it's own over the years.

I might also add that with the exception of the 1st CF crank Campy made (2003 and hand-made), the ole Colnago CF crank, the $750 Zipp, and the current SRAM, all CF cranks come with marbelized CF. Just doesn't have the bling factor of traditional weave, and it won't match the frame. I've two CF cranks (FSA MegaEXO and Record CT) and I'm getting tired of looking at the stuff. Fortunately I was able to pick up a 2003 Record off Ebay, but I feel it will maintain it's value better by being uninstalled (as well as brand new and boxed), so I decided not to put it on my dream C50 for the moment .


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## giordana93

z ken,you'll have to see if any of these are still available. couldn't help but think of you when I came across this !
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2002/features/?id=giant10k


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## z ken

clevor: if you really like shimano dura ace 10 while you brought the campy then?? i can understand the reason since everyone have join the carbon-fanatic club ( most of my bike parts are carbon and mostlikely i'll slowly switch to full carbon parts beginning with 303 wheels and stem/handle will soon follow ) i just can't stand to believe i paid alot of money ( dura ace 10 ) for an alum. for a while i was thinking about just buy campy's shifters/rear deraileur + zero gravity brakes with d/a crankset/cassette but will all different type of parts make my bike NOT running smoothly and odd looking?? as of right now i'm looking to upgrade my wheels/stem/handle bar--ALL to carbon from current alum. also is it worth it to go ceramic BB/pulley ( for d/a ) and bearing for 303 wheels??


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## Mike Prince

z ken said:


> is it worth it to go ceramic BB/pulley ( for d/a ) and bearing for 303 wheels??


No, nobody will be able to see those so there's probably not much value in them for you. 

Do a search on "ceramic" and you can find what others have said about the performance gains assocaited with the expense. If you feel like there's something wrong with your BB bearings, I'd put Phil Wood bearings in the D/A bb before I wasted money on ceramics. Also make sure the BB is faced properly - if not there will be more drag and your bearings won't last as long. That's one of the downsides of the external BB's.


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## z ken

prince: i was wondering will ceramic " upgrade " make me go a tad faster specially on the climb. i'm not buy ceramic for a bling factor but rather performance boost. lately some " experts " claimed ceramic parts do boost your overall performances slightly. may be 5%?? i'll need to wait until the smoke screen clear up. it's about $ 400 ( bb/cups/pulley ).


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## California L33

z ken said:


> clevor: so far you've not mention how's the ride feel?? sounded like you're not 100% satisfy?? i would like to know more how boras perform in the mountains?? i live in an area loaded with mountains ( 19 miles with 7-8% average climb ) and even as 26% climb in sonoma in northern california ( you can go to chainreactionbicycles.com and scroll all the way down to " mape and ride " and click on sonoma pass. it got the pics. and maps of infamous climb in northern ca. ) colnago c-50?? just a personal thing, i find colnago NOT attractive at all ( bad colors scheme ( actually make me dizzy, seriously ) and hell of expensive ) so far my trek madone, BMC and cevelo are the best looking bikes. ugliest?? that's an easy ones: bianchi and LOOK, aka gay rides. hahah just a thought.


Let's see, the ugliest bike is Bianchi? If the L'Una is ugly, I don't want beautiful-


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## z ken

boras or 303, yup baby. today i finally got my injury conpensation. it's a 6 figure [ smile ] and now the " good " headache begins...itially i want to go with boras b/c well you know one of the most beautiful creation ever except [ cough] cindy crawford. lol 303 is my ideal wheels for my climbing ( 19 miles, 7-8% and 4200+ elevation ) or 9600+ elevation, 20+ miles with some 26%. ouch!! it hurts just thinking about it.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> boras or 303, yup baby. today i finally got my injury conpensation. it's a 6 figure [ smile ] and now the " good " headache begins...itially i want to go with boras b/c well you know one of the most beautiful creation ever except [ cough] cindy crawford. lol 303 is my ideal wheels for my climbing ( 19 miles, 7-8% and 4200+ elevation ) or 9600+ elevation, 20+ miles with some 26%. ouch!! it hurts just thinking about it.


z ken, did you see the new Lew wheels, release date today? 880 grams a set for clinchers. Pricey, but light.


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## z ken

l33: 880grams for BOTH front and real wheels?? man does it have a rider weight limit?? and how much does it cost?? i heard some info. about it from someone last year but not sure of the full details. does it also look bling-machine from riding p.o.v ( that way people know i'm riding a 880 grams wheelset )?? last time i check lightweight ( ventoux ) and Z 2 were barely over 1k gms and both costed $ 6k and $ 4k, respectively. [ gulp ]


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: 880grams for BOTH front and real wheels?? man does it have a rider weight limit?? and how much does it cost?? i heard some info. about it from someone last year but not sure of the full details. does it also look bling-machine from riding p.o.v ( that way people know i'm riding a 880 grams wheelset )?? last time i check lightweight ( ventoux ) and Z 2 were barely over 1k gms and both costed $ 6k and $ 4k, respectively. [ gulp ]


880 grams is for both wheels. They're made of Boron/Graphite composite, and supposedly never need truing. Price is, sit down, around 5K for the pair. Rider weight limit is 180 pounds, but they will custom make wheels for heavier riders for a higher price. Bling, you tell me. They've all got a single yellow spoke so nobody will mistake them for something else. Here's a picture.


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## z ken

l33: thanks for the photo. i'll admit if i just park my bike, a bike " expert " might notice my " bling " but when i'll zipping through the street/road or up the climb, how many people/riders can identify it's 5k/880 gms wheels?? also it looks somewhat of " lame "-not flashy enough like boras or 404. when i ride boras or 404 ( next weekend?? ) other riders will immediately notice i'm riding a pair of " hot " wheels. 5K?? too much cash for something people can't identify when you're riding on it. as of right now i've two options: 303 or 404 ( both tubular ) i've to let my friend know by monday ( he's a dealer and i'll save some cash. $ 1.5k for '07 303 or 404 ) i'm thinking about 343 ( 303 front and 404 rear but it'll make my bike look kind of odd ) 303 or 404..arrgh headache time!! by next weekend ( super bowl weekend ) i could finally own my dream wheels. l33: which one would you choose: 303,404 or 343??


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: thanks for the photo. i'll admit if i just park my bike, a bike " expert " might notice my " bling " but when i'll zipping through the street/road or up the climb, how many people/riders can identify it's 5k/880 gms wheels?? also it looks somewhat of " lame "-not flashy enough like boras or 404. when i ride boras or 404 ( next weekend?? ) other riders will immediately notice i'm riding a pair of " hot " wheels. 5K?? too much cash for something people can't identify when you're riding on it. as of right now i've two options: 303 or 404 ( both tubular ) i've to let my friend know by monday ( he's a dealer and i'll save some cash. $ 1.5k for '07 303 or 404 ) i'm thinking about 343 ( 303 front and 404 rear but it'll make my bike look kind of odd ) 303 or 404..arrgh headache time!! by next weekend ( super bowl weekend ) i could finally own my dream wheels. l33: which one would you choose: 303,404 or 343??


My personal favorites (in terms of bling factor) are the 1500 gram per set Nimble Crosswinds. You run a set of those with custom graphics and nobody forgets you. There's a rider on this site who claims to have 11,000 miles on a set, so they're also durable. Another one to throw at you is the Cane Creek Aros 58mm which look a lot like the 404s. I don't know the weight. Those are only about $1100 a pair. Of the ones you mentioned I think the 404s look the coolest, but I thought they had durability problems- race wheels, not everyday wheels.


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## z ken

l33: i do like nimble's star and stripes?? it would be great for on july 4th ride in my area. othe than that it become " too american ". about cane creek, once you're up to the speed, it kind of look like Spinergy wheels ( i used to owned it and it's heavy and look reasonably alright for $ 800. i ended up selling it for $ 400 and got easton ascent II ) 404 is no doubt a bling machine but it's not my top choice. Boras is and will always be unless something come along in the near future. what do you think about dura ace carbon wheels ( 50 mm one )?? i know it weights 1500 gms and costed $ 2k. isn't it kind of heavy for such expensive wheels??


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: if you really like shimano dura ace 10 while you brought the campy then??


I guess my posts are too long and you may have forgotten . My C50 is intended as my high snoot build and since it (is still) made in Italy, had to go Record on it. Besides, I have 4-5 ATB bikes and of course they all have Shimano.

And I don't like DuraAce THAT much: I refuse to buy their shifters (or any shifters) unless I can get a set under $300. I'm sticking with the (oink oink) Ultegras for now.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: i do like nimble's star and stripes?? it would be great for on july 4th ride in my area. othe than that it become " too american ". about cane creek, once you're up to the speed, it kind of look like Spinergy wheels ( i used to owned it and it's heavy and look reasonably alright for $ 800. i ended up selling it for $ 400 and got easton ascent II ) 404 is no doubt a bling machine but it's not my top choice. Boras is and will always be unless something come along in the near future. what do you think about dura ace carbon wheels ( 50 mm one )?? i know it weights 1500 gms and costed $ 2k. isn't it kind of heavy for such expensive wheels??


Well, they'll put any gaphics you want on the Nimbles. They'll probably paint them Tour De France yellow and spell "z ken" in Rhinstones on each blade if you want them to. http://nimble.net It looks like both the Dura-Ace and Boras are tubular. You better really think about whether you want to go tubular. Do you really want to carry a spare tire and glue it up on the side of the road when you get a flat? :mad2: If you're just not sure why don't you just take a break and think about it for a while?


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> l33: thanks for the photo. i'll admit if i just park my bike, a bike " expert " might notice my " bling " but when i'll zipping through the street/road or up the climb, how many people/riders can identify it's 5k/880 gms wheels?? also it looks somewhat of " lame "-not flashy enough like boras or 404. when i ride boras or 404 ( next weekend?? ) other riders will immediately notice i'm riding a pair of " hot " wheels. 5K?? too much cash for something people can't identify when you're riding on it. as of right now i've two options: 303 or 404 ( both tubular ) i've to let my friend know by monday ( he's a dealer and i'll save some cash. $ 1.5k for '07 303 or 404 ) i'm thinking about 343 ( 303 front and 404 rear but it'll make my bike look kind of odd ) 303 or 404..arrgh headache time!! by next weekend ( super bowl weekend ) i could finally own my dream wheels. l33: which one would you choose: 303,404 or 343??


I sorta agree here. With the amount of bucks I dropped on the Boras (even as 'cheap' as I got them), I could have gotten any other wheelset short of Lightweights. I've seen Lightweights and for them, it's function over form (or bling). The layout of carbon fiber twill was haphazard in areas, and the overall look of the rims were dull.

Frankly, if it was the other way around and Lightweights were $2400 and the Boras were $3700, look as sexy as they are, and light as the Lightweights, hmmm, maybe I would have gone with them? (Nah, I draw the line).

As for the Hyperon Ultra clinchers, I know they are a tad lighter. They would barely fit in my budget, but too little carbon fiber for those bucks! Drop that many bills and I want carbon fiber for my money! I get more of that with the high profile Boras. Plus you can hardly read the 'Campagnolo' on the Hyperons. And I'd hate to take tire levers to dem rims.

Did you see the post on the 'Wheels' forum on a tubular rim review to be done by this site? Most all the rims out there are actually rebadged Zipp. Not a lot of inherent variety. If the Boras were included in the testing, not sure how they would do, but then again for me, I need 50% Show and 50% Go.

Some guys say they don't like braking on carbon, but put an Alu insert in there and you might as well ride clinchers.


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## z ken

l33: i got the cash and ready to buy my dream wheels. my boss ( yes even he got something say. bummer!! ), my co-workers, my friend and family all disagree of me spending $ 2k on some fancy wheels. i guess they can't NEVER understand the " love " we have for bikes. i told them i could've spend the money for gambling, cigar-weed ( lol ) or even " home entertainers ". hahah err forget the 3rd one. my point bike is real important for me. family and money will always come before bike, everything is.. nothing else matter ( # 1 all-time favorite song by legendary Metallica ) " smell like teen spirit " is a close second. back to wheels: i'm leaning toward 303, as of right now, but may be tomorrow morning i might switch to 404.


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## z ken

last night i was leaning toward 303 but today i finally make the " final " decision. 404 is my choice ( as close as to boras as you can get and save extra 1k and lighter too?? ) problem is: i could get 404 with tax, labor and shippping for $ 1.7 k and not to mention extra $ 200 for tubular tire. what do you guy think?? should i go for it. $ 1900 for zipp 404/tire?? oh yeah it's NOT '07 model, it's '06.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> last night i was leaning toward 303 but today i finally make the " final " decision. 404 is my choice ( as close as to boras as you can get and save extra 1k and lighter too?? ) problem is: i could get 404 with tax, labor and shippping for $ 1.7 k and not to mention extra $ 200 for tubular tire. what do you guy think?? should i go for it. $ 1900 for zipp 404/tire?? oh yeah it's NOT '07 model, it's '06.


 Have you thought about renting a set to see if you like them? 

http://www.racedaywheels.com/home.html

I'm not sure if they're the only place, but they rent high end wheels. Have you thought about a set of 404 clinchers? Easier flat fixes, and once people see that "Zipp" logo you're not going to have to do much more to impress them (other than not get caught walking to the top  )


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## z ken

l33: yes i've been thinking about " rent first, buy later " plan but after i've read many reviews here RBR, i heard nothing but great thing. so it must be a damn good of wheels. itially i wanted 303 but heard some bad reviews and it scares me a bit. like i said before here ( south bay ) performance is second while look and bling is the king. as of this moment i'm putting a hold of buying 404. it'll cost me $ 1,900 after all said and done. i got the money but do i REALLY want to " impress " my buddies that much. i used to own Easton ascent II and it served me real well ( climbing ) but very average on the descent/flat. also thinking about mavic ES but it's made in france ( yikes!! ) and i could get it for $ 950 after tax, shipping and labor. a great deal consider msrp going for $ 1300 ( tax/shipping/labor ) so far i heard it's great for climb/descent/flats and everything in between. err why does it have to made in France?? hahah


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> l33: yes i've been thinking about " rent first, buy later " plan but after i've read many reviews here RBR, i heard nothing but great thing. so it must be a damn good of wheels. itially i wanted 303 but heard some bad reviews and it scares me a bit. like i said before here ( south bay ) performance is second while look and bling is the king. as of this moment i'm putting a hold of buying 404. it'll cost me $ 1,900 after all said and done. i got the money but do i REALLY want to " impress " my buddies that much. i used to own Easton ascent II and it served me real well ( climbing ) but very average on the descent/flat. also thinking about mavic ES but it's made in france ( yikes!! ) and i could get it for $ 950 after tax, shipping and labor. a great deal consider msrp going for $ 1300 ( tax/shipping/labor ) so far i heard it's great for climb/descent/flats and everything in between. err why does it have to made in France?? hahah


You're dropping $1900 for those Zipps? I got my Boras for $2400 with free freight from BikesAreCool. I think the free freight still holds for orders >$200 and hell yes, the Boras are that :lol:. But if your threshold is $2k . . .


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## z ken

clevor: i've not drop $ 1.9 K on 404. not yet anyway and mostlikely not going to happen. money?? i just receive my injury compensation and it's 6 figures. heheh so money is not an issue here. i do want to " invest " my money smartly since i almost die in last summer's accident. boras was my original top choice, followed by 303 but could never get a bargain deal ( tried to get boras for around $ 1.7k and 303/404 for less than $ 1.5 K ) so far no luck. infact last winter i went to San Francisco's veloswap and found 404 set for $ 1K ( clincher ) but at that time i only got $ 700. bummer!! so i'll wait til tour of california and usually they've some kind of " bike flea market " going on near the race. may be i might strike a gold or wait until this year's veloswap ( later october ) currently is considering of Mavic ES for $ 850 including tax/labor but mavic is made in France. yikes and you know how much i " dislike " france-made products. hahah it's agreat deal nonetheless.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: yes i've been thinking about " rent first, buy later " plan but after i've read many reviews here RBR, i heard nothing but great thing. so it must be a damn good of wheels. itially i wanted 303 but heard some bad reviews and it scares me a bit. like i said before here ( south bay ) performance is second while look and bling is the king. as of this moment i'm putting a hold of buying 404. it'll cost me $ 1,900 after all said and done. i got the money but do i REALLY want to " impress " my buddies that much. i used to own Easton ascent II and it served me real well ( climbing ) but very average on the descent/flat. also thinking about mavic ES but it's made in france ( yikes!! ) and i could get it for $ 950 after tax, shipping and labor. a great deal consider msrp going for $ 1300 ( tax/shipping/labor ) so far i heard it's great for climb/descent/flats and everything in between. err why does it have to made in France?? hahah


 $1900 worth of beer and women will likely impress your friends a whole lot more than a set of wheels. 

The 404s get mixed reviews here on RBR, the tubular getting better reviews than the clinchers, but dang, the thought of getting a tubular flat 20 miles from home isn't pretty. I didn't read all the reviews, but apparently some people use them as race wheels rather than everyday wheels so they wouldn't have the durability issues some people talk of. 

http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/zipp-speed-weaponry/PRD_28389_2490crx.aspx

http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/zipp-speed-weaponry/PRD_28390_5845crx.aspx


You've got a six figure settlement, you're already on a Madone, it sounds like you need a financial planner more than a set of wheels


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## z ken

l33: i know what you mean, bro but part of my dream, yes bike dream, is to one day own a fancy bike ( i got madone now ) and a pair of blazingly-fast wheels. campy's Boras was/is my # 1 choice but at $ 3k price tage it's bit scratch ( trying to get one for under $ 1.7k, so far no luck ) so plan B: zipp 404, look great and pretty damn fast. once again couldn't find a deal under $ 1.5k. currently considering Mavic ES but it's made in France. YIKES!! hahah so the search continues...

as for my future investment: i'll use only $ 5k for my dream wheels and a trip to sin city this March [ applaud ] i'll still have plenty of money left for some kind of small business. bike business?? could be. i've to think hard and will make the decision after vegas trip.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: i know what you mean, bro but part of my dream, yes bike dream, is to one day own a fancy bike ( i got madone now ) and a pair of blazingly-fast wheels. campy's Boras was/is my # 1 choice but at $ 3k price tage it's bit scratch ( trying to get one for under $ 1.7k, so far no luck ) so plan B: zipp 404, look great and pretty damn fast. once again couldn't find a deal under $ 1.5k. currently considering Mavic ES but it's made in France. YIKES!! hahah so the search continues...
> 
> as for my future investment: i'll use only $ 5k for my dream wheels and a trip to sin city this March [ applaud ] i'll still have plenty of money left for some kind of small business. bike business?? could be. i've to think hard and will make the decision after vegas trip.


 I guess everyone should have a dream, and if by skill or luck you can make that dream come true, if you don't hurt anyone, why not? 

I see no reason not to buy Mavic. I hear they're good wheels. 

Who knows, if you get lucky in Vegas maybe you can buy Trek  Of course, before you buy anything you might consider a few business lessons at the local U.


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## z ken

l33: assuming you've 5K, which of 3 wheels would you buy: Bora ( $ 2.7k ) 404 tubular ( $ 1.7k ) or ES clincher ( $ 850 ) or others??


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: assuming you've 5K, which of 3 wheels would you buy: Bora ( $ 2.7k ) 404 tubular ( $ 1.7k ) or ES clincher ( $ 850 ) or others??


 Let's see-

1) Nimble Crosswinds

2) 404, but clinchers unless I can also afford the support car and driver.

3) Boras

4) Cane Creek Aros

5) ES

- of course if I've got 5K I could get any two sets


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## z ken

l33: here in san jose, california. i don't have to deal with " cross wind " so deep rims won't be a problem. 2 sets?? i could then how's about my vegas trip?? i'm very tempting to get ES for $ 850 ( included tax and labor ) i heard alot of great reviews about them but having ENOUGH money for boras/404 and i pass on them?? oh that thought kills me every time while riding my " ok " bontrager race lite. meanwhile also considering switching from dura ace to campy record ( $ 1.5k ) + i can sell my dura ace to someone and get $ 700 back. so IF i decided to get 404+ campy, i'll almost drop 2 lbs from my bike and it's ALL carbon. sweet thought [ smile ] but it'll cost me $ 2.5k.


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## California L33

z ken said:


> l33: here in san jose, california. i don't have to deal with " cross wind " so deep rims won't be a problem. 2 sets?? i could then how's about my vegas trip?? i'm very tempting to get ES for $ 850 ( included tax and labor ) i heard alot of great reviews about them but having ENOUGH money for boras/404 and i pass on them?? oh that thought kills me every time while riding my " ok " bontrager race lite. meanwhile also considering switching from dura ace to campy record ( $ 1.5k ) + i can sell my dura ace to someone and get $ 700 back. so IF i decided to get 404+ campy, i'll almost drop 2 lbs from my bike and it's ALL carbon. sweet thought [ smile ] but it'll cost me $ 2.5k.


Personally, I like to think about these things long and hard. As much as I like spending money I'm never in a rush to do it. Again, from a personal perspective, I think the Bontrager Race Lites are pretty sharp looking wheels- put them on a Madone and do you really want more? Do you have any problems with their performance? Even if the ES is a better wheel, I don't know if it looks good enough (and you said you're going by looks) to justify the expense if you're not having trouble with your Race Lites. If you're trying to attract attention then I think the deep rims are the only way to do it. 

As for dropping 2 pounds from you bike, sure, it's a sweet thought, but how much does it weigh now? $1250 a pound is pretty expensive if you're not racing at a very serious level. Even if you are your time savings would be measured in seconds even over a long distance. If go faster is the key then spending that money on a coach who could get you in better shape and give you a better aero position would doubtless save you more time. Just thinking out loud here, I wonder what Jenny Craig would cost to take 2 pounds off your frame?


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> so IF i decided to get 404+ campy, i'll almost drop 2 lbs from my bike and it's ALL carbon. sweet thought [ smile ] but it'll cost me $ 2.5k.


I don't think you will drop 2 lbs with that change. I have a spreadsheet that tallies up weight and the difference I get between full Record and full DA is 0.29 lbs. The 404s will only drop around 1.23 lbs at most (assuming Zipp's advertised weight is accurate ). You'd also have to change out your bar, stem, post, skewers, tubes, and tires for ultralight stuff like I've done, where I've dropped around 1.7 lbs.

I got my Giant TCR Comp 1 down from stock 16.8 lbs to 15.1, mainly via a Ligero Wheelworks custom set of rims: Alex Crostini 3.1 (SC7000) with Sapim X-Ray spokes and White Industries hubs. This clincher wheelset weighs the same as my Boras, around 1330-1350 gms, all at a cost of $620. But I don't think this is for you, as the Alex rims are made in Taiwan of course. Doesn't bother me in the least. Your Mavic ESs won't touch this weight BTW.

But I had to swap out most everything else except the geartrain with the lightest stuff around: Syntace stem; Kestrel EMS Pro SL bar, M2 Racer skewers, Forte seatpost (144 gms!), Veloflex Pave tires, Michelin UL tubes. The tires themselves are recommended for racing due to minimal rubber. Most of this stuff is made in the Far East but that is inevitable nowadays. 

I'm happy at 15.1 lbs and am not greedy. Swap out the porky FSA MegaEXO crank for a DA7800 and I should get down to 14.8 lbs. And this is with my heavy Ultegra shifters, stock Sampson CF brakes (not bad at 314 gms), and 236 gm Selle Italia saddle.

My Giant originally cost me $2250 and with the upgraded parts cost me around $1k, so total expenditure was $3250, not bad considering just a Colnago C50 or Paris Carbon frame will run around $4000 in the U.S. And you can't ride that around. Plus the OEM parts I took off the Giant (like Mavic Elites and Easton bar) I put on my Ti build. My Giant is now the same weight as a LiteSpeed Ghisallo, which runs around $7k off the LBS floor.

I think a Trek would look strange with Campy components (but then Basso will look strange on a Trek), and the Bontrager rims look appropriate due to the Disco influence. But sounds to me you are getting burnt out with your bike so maybe you should sell it and buy another brand/componentry.

You said you got a six figure compensation claim. What's 11k for a Scott Addict LTD, at around 13 lbs stock? :lol:


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## z ken

l33: very well said. i've not spent any dime yet and still thinking hard. trying to find a bargain deal on E-Bay. so far no luck. as for Bontrager Race-lite, it's very average ( 1690 gms ) and look kind of sucks.

clevor: or should i call you " clever " hahah yeah i got enough money for Scott ltd. and its 13lb advertised bike but why would i buy it, Lance or other of my favorite riders didn't use it. would i buy it if Lance or disc. ride them?? probably not. afterall i ride 5.2 sl madone, not 6.9 ssl or sslx. so right now i'm riding my madone/dura ace and quite happy but deep in my heart is wishing if one day shimano would go...say carbon drivetain. heheh


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: or should i call you " clever " hahah yeah i got enough money for Scott ltd. and its 13lb advertised bike but why would i buy it, Lance or other of my favorite riders didn't use it. would i buy it if Lance or disc. ride them?? probably not. afterall i ride 5.2 sl madone, not 6.9 ssl or sslx. so right now i'm riding my madone/dura ace and quite happy but deep in my heart is wishing if one day shimano would go...say carbon drivetain. heheh


Actually the Addict would be illegal for the TDF; I think the bikes have to weigh a minimum of 14.9 lbs.

I was just joking about the Scott; I was just picking the most outrageously priced bit of bike porn out there. Scott probably suffers from the lack of success of the Sauvier Duval team. I'm sure if Basso was winning on one, Scott frames would be the rage right now (just as Cervelo is). And correct, now that Ullrich has left T-Mobile, Giant may go downhill.

The Scotts are overpriced too: no way would I spend $3500 on a frame made in Taiwan (although I suspect the $3800 Paris Carbons are made there). My TCR Comp 1 may be made in Taiwan, but at least you can get the frame for around $1250.

I saw a Scott CR SL frame in an LBS,and the thing looked cheap. You could see the glue sticking out where the Alu dropouts were connected to the CF at the end of the chainstays and fork. Plus a pop-riveted front derailleur bracket (just like my Colnago C50!). Also, the tubes are way too big, pop can thin, and not very aerodynamic. Scott emphasizes light weight at the expense of everything else.

Yup, I pass on Scotts.


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## z ken

i guess Scott want those poor Taiwanese to produce bike frame as many ASAP or they've nothing to eat or missing a daily paycheck of a nickle. sad. i heard some rumor that Colnago frames are not entirely made in Italy ( alot of forged C-50 ) just glad my madone is made in USA. well that's what the label said...[ finger cross ]


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> i heard some rumor that Colnago frames are not entirely made in Italy ( alot of forged C-50 ) just glad my madone is made in USA. well that's what the label said...[ finger cross ]


A U.S. vendor (who shall go unnamed) told me he's received C50s drop shipped direct from Taiwan. He told me he swears some frames are being made in that area. He said that's why so many C50s are being sold in Hong Kong for cheap. I haven't dropped this bombshell on the Colnago site yet, unless I am prompted to do so :arf:.

I know my C50 is made in Italy because of the spotty craftsmanship on the chainstays. The CF twill layout is haphazard in areas and I can see filled-in and sanded spots in certain areas. Gotta be Italian-made rrr:. Plus the paint job ain't perfect: the rainbow bands airbrushed on the left seatstay are not the same width as the right. Colnago paint jobs irritate you like that.

The most gorgeous carbon fiber bike I've seen, with the most impressive layout of twill weave, was a Felt. No doubt made in Taiwan.

Actually, I got my frame from TotalCycling in England, and I still have the original shipping box. The original label on the box is from Ernesto Colnago Inc. in Italy, drop shipped to Madison Cycles, the Colnago distributor in England. So that further confirms it's of Italian origin, heh.

If I see a C50 with gorgeous, perfect CF twill layout and perfect airbrushing, hey, gotta be a counterfeit . . . :hand:


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## z ken

clevor: isn't that kind of sad to know Colnago charged you an arm and a leg for such paint schemes ( one of the reason i pass on Colnago and of course the pricetage just the final nail in the coffin ) i actually like Felt ( the way their carbon bike look/color and design ) but since no one famous use them, i'll just move one store to the left..Trek. by the way do you know any pro team use Felt??


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## Clevor

z ken said:


> clevor: isn't that kind of sad to know Colnago charged you an arm and a leg for such paint schemes ( one of the reason i pass on Colnago and of course the pricetage just the final nail in the coffin ) i actually like Felt ( the way their carbon bike look/color and design ) but since no one famous use them, i'll just move one store to the left..Trek. by the way do you know any pro team use Felt??


Z ken, actually I am happy with my C50 purchase. For one thing, I did not pay $4-4.4k to get the frame in the U.S. I got the frame for $2850, a very good European price. Secondly, I wanted the Oscar Friere World Champ scheme since I already got parts to build that theme bike. I had no luck getting the distributor in the U.S. or Japan to get Colnago to do the job on special order. Colnago figured lotta guys want this paint job due to the inquiries. So three months later Colnago paints up a whole bunch of frames in this scheme and sells through TotalCycling. This is a 2004 paint job and normally not available. So it's funny how things worked out.

Also, the uneven color bands on the seatstays are minor, and nothing else is wrong with the paint on the frame. My frame also is exceptional in gloss: a thick syrupy look with not a hint of orange peel. I don't know how Colnago produced such a top coat without rubbing out the finish. If you look at a bunch of C50 frames at the LBS, the top coat does vary.

I considered a Pinarello Paris Carbon and Eddy Merckx AXM, but nothing commands the snoot power of a Colnago, so I have no regrets.

As for Felt, nope, they don't sponsor a pro team. I picked a Giant for my 'cheap' bike because of the lifetime warrantee, bang-for-the-buck, and visibility due to T-Mobile and Ullrich/Jalabert (ONCE). The razor-sharp handling and longish TT is not for everyone, but it set the standard for sloping frames.


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## MadMax24

Clevor said:


> A U.S. vendor (who shall go unnamed) told me he's received C50s drop shipped direct from Taiwan. He told me he swears some frames are being made in that area. He said that's why so many C50s are being sold in Hong Kong for cheap. I haven't dropped this bombshell on the Colnago site yet, unless I am prompted to do so :arf:.
> 
> I know my C50 is made in Italy because of the spotty craftsmanship on the chainstays. The CF twill layout is haphazard in areas and I can see filled-in and sanded spots in certain areas. Gotta be Italian-made rrr:. Plus the paint job ain't perfect: the rainbow bands airbrushed on the left seatstay are not the same width as the right. Colnago paint jobs irritate you like that.
> 
> The most gorgeous carbon fiber bike I've seen, with the most impressive layout of twill weave, was a Felt. No doubt made in Taiwan.
> 
> Actually, I got my frame from TotalCycling in England, and I still have the original shipping box. The original label on the box is from Ernesto Colnago Inc. in Italy, drop shipped to Madison Cycles, the Colnago distributor in England. So that further confirms it's of Italian origin, heh.
> 
> If I see a C50 with gorgeous, perfect CF twill layout and perfect airbrushing, hey, gotta be a counterfeit . . . :hand:


Clevor, All the euro high end carbon frames are now assembled in Asia. Colnago also! I just purchased a Pinarello Paris, and that's assembled in Japan. As for the tubular issue, I've been riding Mavic GL 330's for 17 years W/ Vittoria's as my everyday training wheel and have had nothing but great luck! Very seldom glueing a tire on the road, and I ride them til there's nothing left on them! My riding friends are always getting flats with clinchers. I just purchased a set of zipp 404's for my new ride, I will NEVER switch to clinchers.


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## z ken

madmax: thanks for insightful tips. how's 404 so far?? i'm planning to get one too but couldn't get for under $ 1500. how much did you pay?? hopefully not detail price. well enjoy the ride and ride strong, my motto.


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## MadMax24

z ken, the 404's were about $1800 from my LBS W/ the Paris frame and Campy Record. I only have 40 miles on them because I just got the bike on 1/27, it snowed 4" the next day and the temps for the last week have been in the teen's! But they feel real good, but anything is going to feel great to me coming off 17 yr. old Mavic's! So take what I say with a grain of salt, the 404's are only the 2nd set of wheels I've ridden in a long time. If you can, go to itunes or the zipp home page and listen to the zippcast for the hubs. It is amazing the technology in the zipp hubs! A kg of the German lube used on the bearings costs about $450!


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## z ken

max: sorry to heard you got snow-out in New Jersey?? i saw a jersey shore just under your user name. 4 inches of snow?? that sounded like you live in Minnesota or Colorado. thanks again for the update of 404 and please keep updating your rides, hopefully the weather will warm up some.


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## MadMax24

Thanks z ken, the snow was only around for a few days, but the temps went way down. Maybe by Sun. they said we might be up to 32F, can't wait to get off this spinning bike and get out. This is what happens when you buy a new bike in the off season!


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## z ken

may be you should move out west here, california. always sunshine and beautiful women. can't beat that combo. heheh oh yeah one time i did fall down while starring at some chicks..well let's just say it's not cool. bummer!!


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## MadMax24

Lucky! I wish I was out there, I like the Bakersfield area, nice and quiet & hanging out at Buck Owens Crystal palace! I'm trying to talk my wife into moving to Arizona.


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## Clevor

MadMax24 said:


> Clevor, All the euro high end carbon frames are now assembled in Asia. Colnago also! I just purchased a Pinarello Paris, and that's assembled in Japan. As for the tubular issue, I've been riding Mavic GL 330's for 17 years W/ Vittoria's as my everyday training wheel and have had nothing but great luck! Very seldom glueing a tire on the road, and I ride them til there's nothing left on them! My riding friends are always getting flats with clinchers. I just purchased a set of zipp 404's for my new ride, I will NEVER switch to clinchers.


MadMax:

The Paris Carbon assembled in Japan??? Don't make much sense. The labor cost must be astronomical here. But it's true the frame is made in the Far East. But I always thought it was assembled in Italy. Isn't there a 'Made in Italy' label on your Paris Carbon?

If I ever get another frame (NOT!), gotta be a Paris Carbon in red/white/black Caisse Esparge colors. Need something to match my Bora Ultras :lol:.

Still dunno about the Colnagos. They are pretty honest about things (to a degree I suppose). The Primavera and Arte are made in Taiwan as the stickers on the bike indicate. But as of last year Ernesto Colnago insisted all other frames are made in Italy. I personally think the C50 is, but the lower tier Dream HP and Active - yeah right! But they got 'Made in Italy' stickers on them.

Did you hear the latest crop of $600 Cinelli RAM bars are now 'Designed in Italy' only???

I just bought a Conti Comp GP for my Bora Ultras. Supposed to be what the pros use. Maybe as nobody hardly sells them right now, with the season getting underway. Best price I could find was $99. I mainly will be practicing stretching and installing them on the front rim to get the hang of it. Won't be riding that darn bike much so the tire should last me till I'm 85.


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## Clevor

Update on my Bora Ultras:

Nope Z ken, not riding them yet .

I didn't want to get the stuff now, but I had to in case they discontinue the products in those colors. I found a saddle, pedals, and bar tape to match a Bora Ultra theme on my C50. The saddle is Koobi in red/white/black, to match the colors on the wheelset. After a heck of a lot of searching, I found some Profile bar tape that is red/white/splash (Woot!). I picked up some Keo Sprint pedals which are basically red/silver/black. I will paint the rear hinge silver to get them to match the wheels.

Funny thing is, the red on all these diverse components match the red on the 'ULTRA' logo perfectly! It's a dark blood red. The rest of the logo is actually light silver but white will match it pretty well.

So the bar tape, pedals, and saddle will maintain the color theme of the Bora Ultras. Add to that the rainbow colors on the frame and two secret areas, and overall, the bike should look sick!

Furthermore, I snagged two Kooka Rasta (ATB) cranks on closeout 10 years ago. These come in rainbow colors and can be run on a road bike by changing out the triple rings. I'm contemplating working one of these cranks into the WC theme. The cranks are pretty light too, around 525 gms with 50/34s.


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## MadMax24

Sorry Clevor, I ment the frames are made in Asia, and finished in Italy (painted,clear coated). Maybe that lets them put that "made in Italy" sticker on them. I've heard this from a lot of LBS around my area, I was dissapionted too! I think this is the first year for the C-50's made in Asia from what I was told. Ridley comes right out and tells you that their frames are made in China and shipped back to belgium.


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## California L33

MadMax24 said:


> I've been riding Mavic GL 330's for 17 years W/ Vittoria's as my everyday training wheel... Very seldom glueing a tire on the road.


I take it that you don't ride in goathead country- or Vittoria's are amazingly tough. It seems like I find a busy road nowhere near anywhere a puncturevine could grow- perfectly safe, and whack, goathead right in the center of the tread. It's no big deal since switching to Armadillo Elites, except that I'm riding Armadillo Elites


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## z ken

Zona?? it's big time snowing right now, surprisingly. california is still the king of nice weather. wish i could say the same thing about traffic and bad mannor.


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## z ken

i was this close of buying 404 ( 06 model ) for $ 1700 after tax. i was about to reach for my wallet when one customer came in and interupted my conversation with the store saleman. i told him i'll need some more time to consider. after couple seconds passed by ( felt more like couple minutes..intense/anxious ) i went back to counter and ready for my dream wheels. then someone just call me on a cell, so got to talk and afterwhile on the phone, i walked out of store while still on the phone ( for some strange reason ) to next store for a cold drink. after 10 minutes of " how's hanging " and " nothing much " conversation. i jump on the bike ( mountain bike, not madone. was raining a little ) and headed home. half way home i realized i was about to buy my dream wheels. crape!! gotta go back then it suddenly it started to pour down so got to find a cover. eventhough the rains have stopped but it also have dampen my desire and spirite. so tomorrow if nothing come " between " me and 404, it'll be mine, finally ( no rains in sight ) i was planning to buy 404 last monday but came down with a flu/allegy/dehydration. hmm a sign?? in the beginning i asked alot of Q's and even weighted the wheels and it came in 1276 grams. $ 70 for labor ( gluing and installing ) $ 160 for tires ( conti's sprinter ) 1700+70+160=1930 ( smile=priceless )

p.s: talk to a dude who lives 2 blocks from team CSC's hotel ( training camp for TOC ) lucky bastard but he doesn't even " want " autographes from CSC riders. lucky? yes, stupid? double yeses. hahah


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## dansjustchillin

you make your dura ace carbon.


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## uzziefly

I don't think anything carbon might appear for DA but you never know in the near future. 

Possibly the cranks but I doubt it nonetheless


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## Clevor

uzziefly said:


> I don't think anything carbon might appear for DA but you never know in the near future.
> 
> Possibly the cranks but I doubt it nonetheless


There's no need to. Someone on Weightweenies posted results of a German test comparing stiffness between the new Campy Record UT crank, a DA7800, and the Time ASX. The DA was still far and away the stiffest (108 to 94 for the Campy). Don't know the units but the higher the better. And if you go Ebay or Performance using their 10% discounts, the DA is way cheaper than either crank.

In addition, the bulbous design of the DA (which some call ugly), makes it the most aerodynamic at speed.

Campy carbon cranks have to be the most boring looking ones out there; the 2007 UT looks like a neutered FSA. I own a 2006 CT (bought on closeout for $249) and 2003 double (handmade by Campy, with rare unidirectional weave), but nothing compells me to get an UT - especially at current prices.


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## uzziefly

Clevor said:


> There's no need to. Someone on Weightweenies posted results of a German test comparing stiffness between the new Campy Record UT crank, a DA7800, and the Time ASX. The DA was still far and away the stiffest (108 to 94 for the Campy). Don't know the units but the higher the better. And if you go Ebay or Performance using their 10% discounts, the DA is way cheaper than either crank.
> 
> In addition, the bulbous design of the DA (which some call ugly), makes it the most aerodynamic at speed.
> 
> Campy carbon cranks have to be the most boring looking ones out there; the 2007 UT looks like a neutered FSA. I own a 2006 CT (bought on closeout for $249) and 2003 double (handmade by Campy, with rare unidirectional weave), but nothing compells me to get an UT - especially at current prices.


That's exactly why I'd use a DA 7800 crank even if I get an Italian bike with Campy.


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## SirBenno

Yeah I'm looking forward to riding some new Ultegra cranks after being on FSA's carbon SLK's for 2 years. Whenever I ride shimano cranks they are noticeably stiffer than my FSA's.


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## woollyjoe

Cannondale also opt for Aluminium cranks when it comes to performance - and their lightest cranks called "SL" are made of aluminium and the standard ones carbon which are 40 grams heavier. 

PS - they are all made by FSA


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## Fastgaijin

Shimano derives its origins from the swordmakers in Osaka, Japan. Dura Ace is still manufactured in Japan because of this, and they do not sound interested in a carbon crank at this time. Still, one must admit that Trek, and their 'traditionalist posterboy' Lance' have now abandoned traditional geometry frames after years of holding out, I would have to guess that fashion will dictate their economic decisions in the end...


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## djcrb9

Fastgaijin said:


> Shimano derives its origins from the swordmakers in Osaka, Japan. Dura Ace is still manufactured in Japan because of this, and they do not sound interested in a carbon crank at this time. Still, one must admit that Trek, and their 'traditionalist posterboy' Lance' have now abandoned traditional geometry frames after years of holding out, I would have to guess that fashion will dictate their economic decisions in the end...


huh?

Shimano will go carbon. They have already started, with the 2008 XTR rear derailleur. Expect carbon on Dura-Ace soon. Maybe not in the crank just yet, but in other places to shave weight.


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## toyota

*Carbon Cranks from Shimano*
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/tour_de_suissetech


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## z ken

thank you god!! my prayer have been finally answered. i guess i've " forseem " before alot of people here. heheh ( told myself to be humble ) it all make sense since Campy and Srams had gone carbon. why wouldn't Shimano follow?? i kind of known it's matter of time before shimano would go carbon. i even mentioned ( mentioned earlier here ) that come 08 shimano might release all new carbon 10 speed. gold and blue versions?? not sure about colors part but atleast going with carbon is great start. long live shimano!!


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## funhog1

*Yay! Black Gold...*

eeeewwweee....

Aesthetically I'm not a huge fan of the carbon "look". I do love what one can get from it performance wise; light weight bikes and bad ass frames. 

My overall second to C-dale hollowgrams....The DA cranks....in Aluminum....are my #1 aesthetic fave...even if they are heavier than hollowgrams and the rest of the chi chi black yuck that everyone else is churning out.... I do have a fondness for campy's iteration of the stuff in their cranks. Very well done IMHO. 

For '08 I'm hoping that Shimi will reduce the weight of DA brifters and the gruppo as a whole. Perhaps a DA SL Gruppo. Ergonomically, I would love Campy Ergo's if it wasn't for the fugly tonka toy thumb shifter lever. For my tastes SRAM is too unrefined. I Hope the Red stuff is a gi-normous improvement over Force/Rivals rough edges. 

The only way I can see that Shimi could drastically reduce weight is with the black yucky yuck. Carbon weave is just not my favorite flavor. Which Is why I perfer carbon bkes that have the stuff fabricated in such a way that the weave layer is not there or the uni-dir is painted over. 

Clearly though...what do I have to complain about =) I get to ride flippin sweet bikes and live strong just like lance =) (blush)

That said. I do hope anything 'mano releases to the public in carbon will be well done and well recieved...unlike the horror of '03 XTR....


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## z ken

err it's just a prototype. give it a time and i do have 100% cinfident in Shimano. may be later they might change color(s ) or add some kind of design (s ). stay tune. lighter and stiffer?? oh can't wait til the real thing come out. who's with me??


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## toyota

z ken said:


> err it's just a prototype. give it a time and i do have 100% cinfident in Shimano. may be later they might change color(s ) or add some kind of design (s ). stay tune. lighter and stiffer?? oh can't wait til the real thing come out. who's with me??


I dont care for carbon cranks myself but IMO Shimano will turn out a very robust and reliable product.


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## handsomerob

toyota said:


> I dont care for carbon cranks myself but IMO Shimano will turn out a very robust and reliable product.


The weave looks like the 1st generation Campagnolo, which I read somewhere was more prone to failure than the non-symmetrical weave they have now. Anyone in the know about CF and the strength based on weave?


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## funhog1

*I'm wondering...*

Pure conjecture.....I'm looking at the sharp edges.....and the weave looks kind of funny as well. I'm wondering....is this an alu crank with a faux carbon finish to help camo it's prototype status?


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## MarvinK

Bdaghisallo said:


> If you are looking for bling for bling's sake, you won't be getting it from Shimano.


Hahah. I guess Ultegra SL's dark grey color is all function--while SRAM's Rival group is $100+ cheaper and 100+g lighter. Ultegra SL seems like all bling for blings sake.

Shimano is the company that made the Sante group back in the day, you remember? I can't think of a better example of bling for bling's sake in a grouppo.


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## handsomerob

MarvinK said:


> Hahah. I guess Ultegra SL's dark grey color is all function--while SRAM's Rival group is $100+ cheaper and 100+g lighter. Ultegra SL seems like all bling for blings sake.
> 
> Shimano is the company that made the Sante group back in the day, you remember? I can't think of a better example of bling for bling's sake in a grouppo.


Regarding Ultegra SL 

Shimano has Ice Grey and Campagnolo has Century Finish. To each his own. I would like to point out that most would agree that you will ride more if you aesthetically like your rig. If the color of your components floats your boat then go for it.


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## funhog1

MarvinK said:


> Shimano is the company that made the Sante group back in the day, you remember? I can't think of a better example of bling for bling's sake in a grouppo.


That Sante stuff was cool. Those RD's were/are completely rebuildable....weighed just a tinge under 200 gms. Shifting was perfect....now....as far as that pearl finish goes....that's a whole nutter story =) Especially when it came to the Sante cranks. You'd 1/2 way expect to see the cadillac insignia embossed in the center....with gold plated rings....Course, like posted above....gotta feel good about your ride....even if one's personal taste in bling...is a Vader like "anti-bling"


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## Clevor

handsomerob said:


> The weave looks like the 1st generation Campagnolo, which I read somewhere was more prone to failure than the non-symmetrical weave they have now. Anyone in the know about CF and the strength based on weave?


Actually the weave shown is what I call the diagonal 3K weave, and it's the same weave found on a majority of the carbon fiber frames on the market, including the following:

Colnago C50
De Rosa Avant
Pinarellos/Operas with the exception of the Paris Carbon and 2007 Prince
Giant monocoques
Orbeas
Parlees

Really just about any carbon frame you can mention. The weave was also used on Campy's 1st carbon crank made in 2003, but the failures were due to the pedal inserts more than anything else. The weave was also used on Colnago's carbon crank.

Somebody claimed multidirectional weave, e.g., that marbelized look on all current cranks such as FSA and Campy is stronger and lighter but I doubt it. The 3K weave is in short supply and it's a b_tch to have to lay out a cosmetic layer on small stuff like cranks so manufacturers cut costs and go with the marbelized stuff, which looks ugly and not very trick to me.

To me, the most beautiful cranks were the 2003-2004 FSA Carbon Pro Team Issue cranks, with the small 3K weave. The Paris Carbons are the only frames to use the same weave, so they match up exactly. The same weave is commonly found on carbon fiber seatposts, stems, water bottle cages, and the such. One example are the current Richey WC carbon stems and bars. Attached is not the best pic, but is an example of the weave.

The new Pinarello Prince is using smaller 1K weave, which is stupid to me. Yes, it's expensive, but it's harder to match swatches on it so you can see a patchwork effect around curved areas on frames. Moreover, none of the carbon fiber components on the market will match the weave. It's not surprising that all the paint schemes for the frame cover up the seat tube and bottom bracket junction with paint, to hide the patchwork effect. And yep, the frame won't be available in nude carbon. Not what you expect for a $5,000 frame.


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## MarvinK

I totally agree that people are more likely to ride a bike they like the look of--I was just saying that Shimano is fully aware of the "bling" factor, and plays that game like everyone else. SRAM Rival is significantly light AND significantly cheaper--but it doesnt have ANY bling factor. I have SRAM Force--mainly because I thought Rival was ugly. Force looks awesome on my bike, and I get TONS of comments on it. I don't miss my Shimano parts, at all.


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## handsomerob

Clevor said:


> Actually the weave shown is what I call the diagonal 3K weave, and it's the same weave found on a majority of the carbon fiber frames on the market, including the following:
> 
> Colnago C50
> De Rosa Avant
> Pinarellos/Operas with the exception of the Paris Carbon and 2007 Prince
> Giant monocoques
> Orbeas
> Parlees
> 
> Really just about any carbon frame you can mention. The weave was also used on Campy's 1st carbon crank made in 2003, but the failures were due to the pedal inserts more than anything else. The weave was also used on Colnago's carbon crank.
> 
> Somebody claimed multidirectional weave, e.g., that marbelized look on all current cranks such as FSA and Campy is stronger and lighter but I doubt it. The 3K weave is in short supply and it's a b_tch to have to lay out a cosmetic layer on small stuff like cranks so manufacturers cut costs and go with the marbelized stuff, which looks ugly and not very trick to me.
> 
> To me, the most beautiful cranks were the 2003-2004 FSA Carbon Pro Team Issue cranks, with the small 3K weave. The Paris Carbons are the only frames to use the same weave, so they match up exactly. The same weave is commonly found on carbon fiber seatposts, stems, water bottle cages, and the such. One example are the current Richey WC carbon stems and bars. Attached is not the best pic, but is an example of the weave.
> 
> The new Pinarello Prince is using smaller 1K weave, which is stupid to me. Yes, it's expensive, but it's harder to match swatches on it so you can see a patchwork effect around curved areas on frames. Moreover, none of the carbon fiber components on the market will match the weave. It's not surprising that all the paint schemes for the frame cover up the seat tube and bottom bracket junction with paint, to hide the patchwork effect. And yep, the frame won't be available in nude carbon. Not what you expect for a $5,000 frame.


I was looking for a well-informed opinion, but I guess this will have to do     ... 

JK.. thanks for the explanation


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## g-Bike

There were some spy photos of the carbon XTR rear derailluer early this summer, we will see how long it takes for DA to get the treatment as well.


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## Wildstar87

*I for one hope they don't...*

I have seen to many Campagnolo Record derailleurs snap due to guess what?? The carbon outer plate of the parallelogram snapping, which then springs the derailleur into the wheel, bending the hangar and taking out spokes.

This is a REALLY stupid place to use a carbon piece, it doesn't make it any lighter, since the DA rear der is lighter than Record carbon. Also far less durable. I have a guy who has been riding Campy for the last 25 years, and is almost ready to switch to Dura Ace because of this problem.

Please please please Shimano, don't do this. If you have to do it, just paint it in a carbon finish. You guys who have to have this, go to Campy if you can't leave well enough alone. I for one don't want to have to buy new wheels, or a new frame (for ones that don't have a replaceable hangar) just because you want your derailleur to look "cool". Personally I think it looks plenty nice, and classic. Carbon look is a fad and will go away in time, other than for function.


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## Clevor

Wildstar87 said:


> I have seen to many Campagnolo Record derailleurs snap due to guess what?? The carbon outer plate of the parallelogram snapping, which then springs the derailleur into the wheel, bending the hangar and taking out spokes.
> 
> This is a REALLY stupid place to use a carbon piece, it doesn't make it any lighter, since the DA rear der is lighter than Record carbon. Also far less durable. I have a guy who has been riding Campy for the last 25 years, and is almost ready to switch to Dura Ace because of this problem.
> 
> Please please please Shimano, don't do this. If you have to do it, just paint it in a carbon finish. You guys who have to have this, go to Campy if you can't leave well enough alone. I for one don't want to have to buy new wheels, or a new frame (for ones that don't have a replaceable hangar) just because you want your derailleur to look "cool". Personally I think it looks plenty nice, and classic. Carbon look is a fad and will go away in time, other than for function.


I'm not surprised about this, but no doubt it must be the best kept secret of the Campy fanboys because you never hear about it.

To me, the problem with Campy aesthetics is the black carbon fiber clashes with the bright silver of the alloy components; they would have been better served to go with a smoked platinum tint on the alloy. Tends to look too cheap the way it is. And the lettering on the Record shifters! Big white lettering. Really cheap looking. Looked like their cheapest model to me when I first got into road cycling.

I can't tell you how many carbon fiber components I have collected since I got into road cycling, but to me, it's overrated (yes, that includes the carbon fiber hubs on Bora Ultras). Really seems more like fancy plastic. I am skeptical it's stiffer than metal. See how easy it is to flex the forks and chainstays of a monocoque frame, by pinching it between thumb and forefinger. The pros won't ride on carbon fiber stems and bars. And the latest word is most of the Pro Tour bikes use aluminum steerers. They don't trust carbon. Even they break (Hincapie's crash two years ago was due to a broken fork, but it had an Alu steerer!). So all the guys riding carbon steerers are the recreational folk.


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## z ken

wildstar: sorry to hear your friend's misfortune but reality is, we should expected, one day that every bike manufactures will go carbon until something new, lighter and stronger come along. while some still prefer steel/alum/ti. today it just too tampted not go with carbon since most pros use them and we know how much we " admire " them even to spend alot of money just for a weekend-only-ride bike.


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## Wildstar87

*But it's not stronger or lighter...*

Z Ken, this is my point. If it is stronger and lighter, I could care less, I even encourage it. However as I am pointing out. The current Dura Ace 10 Speed Rear Der, is LIGHTER (albeit not by much) than the Campy Record 10 Speed Rear Der. It has also at least proven to me, not to be nearly as strong, since my friend has had 2 of these derailleurs let go on him, taking two derailleur hangars, and bending a few spokes that had to be replaced.

I have seen others, in addition to a post on RBR last year of a guy with a Trek, with a NON-REPLACEABLE derailleur hangar, which meant his frame was toast, and I believe it wasn't warranty either, so he had to pay for a new frame.

I happen to know a bit about carbon, and the a derailleur parallelogram is no place for it, very easy to get a stress riser started, with the grit getting into the pivots, and also they aren't molded but drilled holes, so unless they do it exactly perfect each time, another stress riser. 

A stress riser WILL BREAK eventually in carbon, especially in a place that is always being put under stress (i.e. shifting).

Prove to me that it is lighter AND stronger, and I will be the first one to get in line, but just for blings sake AND less reliable, and liable to take out some other VERY high dollar equipment, can't be justified. In addition, Campy isn't replacing these derailleurs under warranty, even though they were all under a year old, which is just bullshit, because it's a lousy design.

Why do you think it's so important to get stuff to proper torque values with carbon? It's so you don't overtighten and crush it, and start a stress riser.

I have a BMC Team SLT frame with an Easton EC90 SLX fork, so don't think I'm a retro grouch, but you have to use each material in it's most effective way.

I saw this happen 10-15 years ago, every one was TI crazy, replacing all the bolt, axles, etc. with TI... Why because it was supposedly stronger, lighter, etc.. People started breaking all those replacement parts, because they weren't using the material properly, in the right sizes for that. They just replaced a steel part. It's the same reason the old TVT aluminum frames were so flexy, because the tubes were the same size as steel. It wasn't until Cannondale/Klein did the oversized aluminum that it got the stiff reputation it does now.

If you look at ANY pedal with a TI axle in it, they all have a rider weight limit. They probably could build one that didn't, but it would require a more oversized design, and it's just easier to make the same model and substitute axles.

The same thing with carbon. You have to treat it a certain way, and use it a certain way, and using it in a moving part in a derailleur without some sort of major redesign just won't work.


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## Kenacycle

There are too many pages and threads for me to sift thru and see if this has been posted.
But it looks like Shimano is going carbon: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-launches-carbon-dura-ace-crankset-12255?img=2


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## jetdog9

I guess everybody knows about the carbon (pseudo-carbon?) cranks...

There was that earlier thread...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=104219

In that thread, Bluechip posted this link, which has images and seems updated as of today (plus I see now the pictures above in this thread):

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-launches-carbon-dura-ace-crankset-12255?img=1

Aside from cranks, if the new XTR Shadow RD for mountain seems to have carbon bits on it, you'd figure they might tinker with Dura Ace or come out with some new class of components at some point?

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish.../en/news___info/news/shimano_xtr__shadow.html


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## Cheers!

Don't forget the "weave" you see a lot of the times is a final cosmetic layer added before they clear coat the hell out of the peice. The outer weave is usually not indicative of what you see below it. A lot of the times it will looks like a patch work of strips of carbon used to re-enforce certain areas where they analyzed it to be a failure point. 

If you ever look at a carbon frame that is meant to be painted before the paint it many will claim poor workmanship as the weave/pattern isn't even. Not true. They lay the layers in the directions they choose to get either strength/stiffness optimized.


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## Guest

*Dura Ace carbon Crankset*

Nice!


http://blogs.sun.com/sbullen/entry/shimano_launches_carbon_dura_ace


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