# Tiernan-Locke



## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

Though I hate to interrupt Lance threads, Jonathan Tiernan-Locke has been asked to explain passport irregularities.

So this explains his withdrawal from the Worlds, his previous explanation being untruthful. ("I didn't have the form"). Brailsford has offered the usual litany of excuses but I am very surprised that under the current climate a supposedly cautiously anti-doping team would engage in this kind of subterfuge. Why not just be up front about it....the truth is going to come out regardless?

I don't much believe that the people reviewing the passport are actually looking for evidence of doping, at least not on a consistent basis, but his numbers must have been quite out of line to draw their attention after he had joined a high profile team.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

We'll just have to wait for JTL's response but in the meantime it is worth noting



> So this explains his withdrawal from the Worlds, his previous explanation being untruthful. ("I didn't have the form").


The Brit forums and JTL himself have been talking about his lack of form for months. The only surprise was that he was even considered for selection for the Worlds. So not untruthful but maybe not the complete truth either.



> Brailsford has offered the usual litany of excuses


Brailsford and Sky have said that the issue predates his involvement with Sky and that they have no further comment. Hardly a "litany of excuses"

JTL and his team requested the bio-passport tests in 2012 (the team and the races they competed in weren't subject to compulsory passport tests.) which seems at odds with anything untoward.

So until the data/facts are established anything else is just conspiracy and bluster.

.... but it is, on the face of it, strange.


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

cq20 said:


> Brailsford and Sky have said that the issue predates his involvement with Sky and that they have no further comment. Hardly a "litany of excuses"


Brailsford:
"He hasn't failed anything yet. The passport is a very good tool, what it tries to do is establish the norm of an individual's fluctuations, their normal physiology. All sorts of things can impact on readings: illness, trauma, time, long-haul flights, dehydration, tapering, being at altitude."

If that isn't the same script we've heard 100 times it isn't because he wasn't trying. Obviously he likes to collect riders recovering from rare blood profile affecting illnesses, but he threw the whole gamut out there on this one.

Enudura and JTL say they asked for additional testing in 2012, but when your agent is Pat McQuaid's son it might be that there is little risk in asking or even being tested.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

grandprix said:


> Obviously he likes to collect riders recovering from rare blood profile affecting illnesses, but he threw the whole gamut out there on this one.
> 
> Enudura and JTL say they asked for additional testing in 2012, but when your agent is Pat McQuaid's son it might be that there is little risk in asking or even being tested.


To repeat:

So until the data/facts are established anything else is just conspiracy and bluster.

.. and for completeness, from "Cycling Weekly"



> Endura also says that Tiernan-Locke was tested by the Garmin-Sharp and Sky teams during 2012, as part of those teams' interest in signing the rider. Neither squad reported any adverse findings in samples taken from Tiernan-Locke.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Why can't they say what's going on besides "irregularities"?


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

spade2you said:


> Why can't they say what's going on besides "irregularities"?


I don't know who you mean by "they" but one of the problems with this story is that it was leaked in contravention of the UCI rules. There is a good background briefing here 

inrng: the biopassport, probability and tiernan-locke


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## grandprix (Jul 8, 2012)

cq20 said:


> So until the data/facts are established anything else is just conspiracy and bluster.


No, the established fact is that his blood profiles contain irregularities. The facts yet to be established explain the why of that. Brailsford, directly contrary to your intimation that he hasn't offered the usual litany of excuses, offered the usual litany of excuses.

I don't find the claim that he passed drug tests, administered by teams or by the UCI, comforting in any way. I'm likely in the minority on that because he isn't Lance Armstrong or connected to him, but that does not bother me. 

It is the attitude toward the whole thing that bothers me. Despite all of the 'bluster' from people who are supposedly going to lead the sport to its new drug free future, they don't seem to want to actually do anything differently.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

grandprix said:


> No, the established fact is that his blood profiles contain irregularities. *The facts yet to be established explain the why of that.* Brailsford, directly contrary to your intimation that he hasn't offered the usual litany of excuses, offered the usual litany of excuses.


Exactly. As you say "The facts yet to be established ". Brailsford's comments were about the process in general. They did not pertain to JTL per se. If you did a bit more research, you will see that Sky have made it very clear that it is a JTL issue and has nothing to do with them.



> I don't find the claim that he passed drug tests, administered by teams or by the UCI, comforting in any way.


Again, a misperception. These weren't "drug tests". The measurements taken were all to do with establishing his blood profile.

As I said earlier, it is all very strange and doesn't appear to the way a doper would go about covering his tracks.

I have no idea whether there is a plausible explanation or not. Time, not speculation, will tell.


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

A good read
inrng: the biopassport, probability and tiernan-locke


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Just one of the first dominos to fall for Sky.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Upheld! BTW totally crappy reporting by most news outlets which don't tell the whole story. This is the most complete I could find:

BBC Sport - Jonathan Tiernan-Locke binge drinking claim rejected

His excuse is total horse-crap, as he went on to ride well the day he was tested.


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## star69 (Apr 4, 2014)

This all begs to question that if binge drinking and being hungover have the same effect as EPO blood doping, why aren't I doing better in my races?


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

star69 said:


> This all begs to question that if binge drinking and being hungover have the same effect as EPO blood doping, why aren't I doing better in my races?


He was claiming severe dehydration due to binge drinking when they took the tests which gave an abnormal reading in his passport.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I suppose it's possible. Perhaps it's a better excuse than the a twin that was consumed.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

spade2you said:


> I suppose it's possible. Perhaps it's a better excuse than the a twin that was consumed.


Sarcasm I'm guessing, but people will take it at face value.

It isn't possible. This is the same superficially plausible but factually utterly ridiculous arguments that all dopers use once they get caught. It amazes me how this grasping at straws somehow convinces people that there is actual doubt. Kudos to UK Anti-Doping for sticking to their guns.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

DrSmile said:


> Sarcasm I'm guessing, but people will take it at face value.
> 
> It isn't possible. This is the same superficially plausible but factually utterly ridiculous arguments that all dopers use once they get caught. It amazes me how this grasping at straws somehow convinces people that there is actual doubt. Kudos to UK Anti-Doping for sticking to their guns.


Dehydration can increase your H&H compared to a hydrated state. How much, not sure. I'd test it out before my next blood check at work, but I try to avoid binge drinking these days. 

I was being totally sarcastic about the 2nd part.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Two year ban confirmed for Tiernan Locke as rider decides not to appeal | CyclingTips



> He had been subjected to three urine tests during the Tour of Britain but, according to UKAD, none of these were analysed for traces of EPO.


I'm just amazed they didn't test him for EPO!


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

at least he should have come up with something original. This was already tried by none other than Landis (Jack Daniels defense), and before him, by track and field star Dennis Mitchell (too much sex and too many beers defense). I like Mitchels' defense better.

Be a little original - try blaming CIA (or mafia), spiked toothpaste, vindictive masseuse, doped-up pigeons, oral sex with pregnant wife - anything!


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

He tried the Landis Jack Daniels defense plus a bit more. It is something like a bottle and half of wine, several gins and then giving the vodka a bit of attention.

His defense case was comprehensively dismissed. He has been shown to be incredibly stupid as well as being found guilty. 

(and I really hope that he isn't drinking that much.)


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

spade2you said:


> I suppose it's possible. Perhaps it's a better excuse than the a twin that was consumed.


People make fun of Tyler for that excuse, but it does have some backing in medical science.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/11/health/11iht-sntwin.html?_r=0



> One route to this odd state, called chimerism, is the vanishing twin. Dr. Helain Landy of Georgetown University, who has no involvement in the Hamilton case, has found that 20 to 30 percent of pregnancies that start out as twins end up as single babies, with one twin being absorbed by the mother during the first trimester.
> 
> Others researchers have found that in some cases, before the twin is absorbed, some of its cells enter the body of the other fetus and remain there for life. The cells can include bone marrow stem cells, the progenitors of blood cells.
> 
> ...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

55x11 said:


> at least he should have come up with something original. This was already tried by none other than Landis (Jack Daniels defense), and before him, by track and field star Dennis Mitchell (too much sex and too many beers defense). I like Mitchels' defense better.
> 
> Be a little original - try blaming CIA (or mafia), spiked toothpaste, vindictive masseuse, doped-up pigeons, oral sex with pregnant wife - anything!


no it was not tried by Landis since that was testosterone in question. However it was used by many as an explanation for Horners roller coaster of a blood passport.
edited: due to dehydration in general not necessarily booze.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

den bakker said:


> no it was not tried by Landis since that was testosterone in question. However it was used by many as an explanation for Horners roller coaster of a blood passport.
> edited: due to dehydration in general not necessarily booze.


Is this Horner's recent passport? Do you have a link to a story about this?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

deviousalex said:


> Is this Horner's recent passport? Do you have a link to a story about this?


the data from 2013. 

I'm sure google is within reach and you can pick and choose.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

deviousalex said:


> People make fun of Tyler for that excuse, but it does have some backing in medical science.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/11/health/11iht-sntwin.html?_r=0


You are mistaking not even remotely plausible for actual science. A chimer would share at least 50% of DNA, and the likelihood of a significant percentage being chimer blood must be one in a billion. Previous tests would also have shown the chimer blood. It's just total BS. It's not actually plausible, just a cover story that's not immediately easily disproved. How could you ignore that in every case where such things are claimed, the riders eventually come clean and admit they doped. That alone should count for something.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

DrSmile said:


> You are mistaking not even remotely plausible for actual science. A chimer would share at least 50% of DNA, and the likelihood of a significant percentage being chimer blood must be one in a billion. Previous tests would also have shown the chimer blood. It's just total BS. It's not actually plausible, just a cover story that's not immediately easily disproved. How could you ignore that in every case where such things are claimed, the riders eventually come clean and admit they doped. That alone should count for something.


I think you are misunderstanding me here. It was clear Hamilton is guilty of blood doping. If he did have two blood types it would have shown up previously (as you stated). All I was saying is that people think this excuse is 100% crazy, but it's actually possible to have two blood types.

From the article:



> Whether Hamilton is guilty or innocent, his defense does refer to a real phenomenon. Researchers who have no involvement in Hamilton's case say it actually is possible for someone to have two types of blood in his body, without doping.


I agree that this would have likely shown up in previous blood tests.

Share at least 50% of the DNA? Where did you get that from? Also, a blood test is not a DNA test. They are completely different.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

deviousalex said:


> I think you are misunderstanding me here. It was clear Hamilton is guilty of blood doping. If he did have two blood types it would have shown up previously (as you stated). All I was saying is that people think this excuse is 100% crazy, but it's actually possible to have two blood types.
> 
> From the article:
> 
> ...


It is NOT possible to have two blood types. It is possible for some very minor antigens to differ due to chimerism, but as the articles on the Hamilton doping story have pointed out, this hasn't been found by blood banks...ever. The 50% DNA sharing is pretty straight forward as the "absorbed twin" theory relies on multiple fertilized eggs that would all share maternal DNA. DNA is present in blood, just not in reticulocytes/erythrocytes. The point is that RBCs from chimerism are likely to be extremely similar in antigens because they share DNA before they lose their nuclei. BTW chimerism is more common in cases of gross genetic abnormalities, such as trisomies, because a chimer is much more likely to survive because the normal cells lessen the penetrance of the associated syndrome. In general chimerism is limited to very very minor genetic differences that aren't functionally important in otherwise genetically normal individuals.

There is ZERO chance that this would occur in an athlete. Science can never say this with certainty, so scientifically speaking, the chance might be one in a billion or 3. People mistake this for doubt.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

deviousalex said:


> People make fun of Tyler for that excuse, but it does have some backing in medical science.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/11/health/11iht-sntwin.html?_r=0


There was also a (regular) CSI episode about that.


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