# Jens.



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I'm surprised there's not a thread yet. 

Jens Voigt on Doping: 'I Just Did Not Ever Dope' | Hardly Serious with Jens Voigt | Bicycling.com


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I want to believe.


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## tnvol123 (Sep 11, 2012)

Me too. It's hard not to like the guy.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I am saying very loudly: Keep my samples, test them, and re-test them, in 10 years or in 100 years from now. Go back in time and open my sample from five years ago or 10 years ago. Feel free to do so! There will never be any surprises because I have nothing to hide.


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## tnvol123 (Sep 11, 2012)

Doesn't get anymore strait forward than that.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Jens is going out of his way to prove that he did not dope due to his few race/stage wins, and even when he won, it was due to some particulars. Now usually when someone goes out of his way to explain something, it usually raises a red flag for me. But in this case, I'm leaning toward believing him.. but who knows really.


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

If you look at the teams he's been in and the races he's won and his typical job on the road the probability of him having doped as a pro is quite low.

GAN -> Credit Agricole: Squeeky clean. Vaughters was baffled when he came there from USPS...
CSC: Lots of clean riders on that team, even if it's Bjarne's, and Basso and Tyler was there. Arvesen, the reformed Julich and others.
Leopard: There's a goulash ok, but still...


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

The public finds it hard to trust after so many years of brazen lies. I'd love to believe he's clean. He'd have had a spectacular career in a clean peloton.


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## The Tedinator (Mar 12, 2004)

The way he treated Tyler when Hamilton came back from his suspension speaks way more than words. One of my favorite riders ever, but I still have my doubts.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Doubt and suspicion is the other toll from scandals like this. For the foreseeable future, it's "guilty until proven innocent" for any racer, particularly if he's deemed to have done a little too well. We will now simply assume racers are still doping, just using more sophisticated means.

I hope Jens is clean, but, then I hoped the same for Hincapie.


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## LeDomestique (Jan 17, 2007)

Being Jens who he is and who he's been...I reckon he deserves the credibility.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

LeDomestique said:


> Being Jens who he is and who he's been...I reckon he deserves the credibility.


Based on what?

We've heard all the same explanations and excuses ("sophisticated" training programs, all the best TT gear, "I heard rumors but never saw it firsthand", blah blah blah) before. And if the truth comes out, he'll say he lied for the sake of his family.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

I think it's highly likely he doped. #shrug


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Beyond the usual trouble I have believing pro cyclists are clean, Jens was in the East German sports institute, where they were basically forced to dope. His circumstances just work against him and it would be amazing if he didn't dope in the last 20 years of cycling. 

And if he _didn't_ dope? Then he should have been a GT winner.


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## LeDomestique (Jan 17, 2007)

pretender said:


> Based on what?
> 
> We've heard all the same explanations and excuses ("sophisticated" training programs, all the best TT gear, "I heard rumors but never saw it firsthand", blah blah blah) before. \.


True. Still...I choose to believe the guy


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> I want to believe.





tnvol123 said:


> Me too. It's hard not to like the guy.


All of this.


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## Corsaire (Jun 2, 2006)

He's lying, come on people LOL! Just look at his performances during a three week period. As we know it's not humanly possible to keep riding at the levels these guys do for three weeks straight...oh! they only get stronger as the weeks go by, sure! LOL! I still like him, but he's not my hero, I stopped believing in the hero/idol celebrity culture crap loooong time ago.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Corsaire said:


> He's lying, come on people LOL! Just look at his performances during a three week period. As we know it's not humanly possible to keep riding at the levels these guys do for three weeks straight...oh! they only get stronger as the weeks go by, sure! LOL! I still like him, but he's not my hero, I stopped believing in the hero/idol celebrity culture crap loooong time ago.


This I agree with :thumbsup:


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Haha some people actually believe that he's clean ? Seriously ? Wake up people, he's from the East German school of cycling...



> GAN -> Credit Agricole: Squeeky clean. Vaughters was baffled when he came there from USPS...
> CSC: Lots of clean riders on that team, even if it's Bjarne's, and Basso and Tyler was there. Arvesen, the reformed Julich and others.


Credit Agricole clean ? Saving the best for last, CSC CLEAN ? Are you for real ? 

Jens doped. I wouldn't be that surprised if he still took a booster from time to time. Obviously the Radioshack PR team wants him to use his good image with the fans to sell the "clean cycling" bs that every questionable rider has been feeding us since the scandal started.

I really want to like Voigt, but so many of the cyclists I liked have proven themselves unworthy these past few weeks...Voigt, Hushovd, Jalabert, to name a few. Thankfully even for every BS reply from pretty much everyone in the peloton you still get some nice words from people like Kittel and Greipel. Those should be the people you admire and put your trust in, not some obviously doped up German guy trying to save his image.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

He hits the major talking points of someone who rode clean. But to be in the dark, that long in his career, about such wide spread use....hard to believe. (And I do not think that the team doping was 'perfectly organized'...you don't have to hide much when the officials don't want to catch you.) 

Possible that he was just very naive and sheltered for a long time in his early career. Just not likely.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

hmm.. After some time to think about it, with him being on the East German team. I have to change my opinion and say that he has dabbled with the darkside of procycling at some point in his career. There is no way in hell a person who has gone thru East Germany and Procycling and not dope,, much less not aware of or not witness any doping. It's like how could you jump into the middle of the Pacific Ocean from an airplane and miss hitting the water?? Not possible.

He prolly did dope, but did it "recreationally". If I had to compare him to Lance, Lance would be like an advanced crack addict, Jens would be like that 8th grader taking a puff of bong out of peer pressure but then quit quickly afterward.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

We can hope.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Half of you guys didn't read his blog. Jens addresses the East German thing.


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Local Hero said:


> Half of you guys didn't read his blog. Jens addresses the East German thing.


He writes "it’s clear that there was a fair amount of doping," which is a huge understatement and for me was one of several red flags in his piece.

If you accept the piece as a whole, you have to imagine him living in some bizarre plastic bubble while competing during an era rampant with blood boosting.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

pretender said:


> He writes "it’s clear that there was a fair amount of doping," which is a huge understatement and for me was one of several red flags in his piece.
> 
> If you accept the piece as a whole, you have to imagine him living in some bizarre plastic bubble while competing during an era rampant with blood boosting.


Or whoever was doping Jens up sucked at it...Unlike lots of the other people coming out of the woodwork, Jens wasn't a frequent stage winner....the only thing that sticks out in my mind of the last few years was his frequently leading the charge of the peloton, unlike the others with their solo break-away unbelievable superhuman wins.

Of the entire pro peloton of the last decade, Jens is the only guy I'm tempted to believe. In addition to him being a cool guy.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

East Germany, and its doping program, were coming apart at the seams in 1989. Before EPO use became widespread in cycling. I think re-unification took place in 1990, IIRC.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

This is one of those people I could care less about the drugs. He is fun to watch, and he is a worker bee. It is sad if he is lying, I would rather he not say anything.

There are a few riders, who cares if they cheated? So long as they aren't *******s about it...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I like how bikesnob called him the "anti-Forest Gump" for some how not seeing any doping despite being with Riis, Bruyneel, being a pro before Festina, East Germany, etc etc..


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Some people really need to dig their heads out of the sand. 
It's one thing to like Jens Voigt for his cycling personality, and it's another to be in denial about his doping because you like that personality.

Personally, I got off the Jens bandwagon when he started writing for Bicycling. I never found his chronicles to be that interesting, so it's not a huge shock to get confirmation through his public statements that he most definitely was doping.


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## LeDomestique (Jan 17, 2007)

moskowe said:


> Personally, I got off the Jens bandwagon when he started writing for Bicycling. I never found his chronicles to be that interesting, so it's not a huge shock to get confirmation through his public statements that he most definitely was doping.


?? Sorry....which public statement did I miss? Plenty of speculation everywhere and lots of guilt by association.

The only bit that comes across as "naive" at best is the fact that he says he never saw anything, until later in his life. That is hard to believe for someone racing professionally and directly impacted by other's doping. 

Now...from there to "Jens most definitely doped" , its a massive jump which you cannot substantiate


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

He's a cool guy. And a doper. You couldn't set the pace at the front of the (doped) peloton for years while being clean.

But he is a cool, quoteable guy.


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

Admit it:

* Of all the guys in the Peleton, Jens would be one you'd like to hang with.

- and -

* Pro cycling is in for a long, uphill road back to credibility and those of the current era are tarnished regardless of their training habits.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Nor can you substantiate that he didn't dope. From circumstantial evidence however, he looks extremely guilty. Unfortunately at the moment that's all we have, but I would love to have for details about the inner workings of CSC and Radioshack...


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

troutmd said:


> Admit it:
> 
> * Of all the guys in the Peleton, Jens would be one you'd like to hang with.
> 
> ...


Of all the guys in the Peloton, Boonen is the one I'd like to hang with.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

Nobody could survive a stage in the TdF on the ill fitting Mavic neutral support bike unless doped.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> Half of you guys didn't read his blog. Jens addresses the East German thing.


I will start by saying I am a huge fan of Jens. That being said, the East German academy didn't give you the option of how you trained. It was a communist sports academy with the sole purpose of winning races. If you went their, you did their program. If they doped there, so did he. He wouldn't have been able to say "no thanks boys, it isn't for me". I know he is one of the Shack boys trying to make it sound like only the Americans were doping like the rest of the euro pros, but it just ain't possible. 

Do I believe there was a chance he was clean after East Germany...possibly.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

spookyload said:


> I will start by saying I am a huge fan of Jens. That being said, the East German academy didn't give you the option of how you trained. It was a communist sports academy with the sole purpose of winning races. If you went their, you did their program. If they doped there, so did he. He wouldn't have been able to say "no thanks boys, it isn't for me". I know he is one of the Shack boys trying to make it sound like only the Americans were doping like the rest of the euro pros, but it just ain't possible.
> 
> Do I believe there was a chance he was clean after East Germany...possibly.


Er, sorry? Which euro pros are saying only Americans doped?


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

roddjbrown said:


> Er, sorry? Which euro pros are saying only Americans doped?


How many do you see lining up to tell on each other for amnesty. Believe me, they are shaking in their boots that the dam doesn't burst like it did for the American pros. Till then...it was only us.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

spookyload said:


> How many do you see lining up to tell on each other for amnesty. Believe me, they are shaking in their boots that the dam doesn't burst like it did for the American pros. Till then...it was only us.


 I'm still not sure how the lack of amnesty riders informing on one teammate is evidence that they want us to believe only American riders dope. Doping did not start nor end with Lance.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

Why are we discussing this Creaky? We all know the truth. 






Jens doesn't dope. Dope does Jens. Well known Jens-er in the peleton.


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## troutmd (Sep 7, 2007)

Ventruck said:


> Why are we discussing this Creaky? We all know the truth.
> 
> Jens doesn't dope. Dope does Jens. Well known Jens-er in the peleton.


Yea --- besides the sooner Jens, Chris Horner take over for Phil and Paul, the sooner we can again enjoy televised cycling for what it once was ... a sport.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Ventruck said:


> Why are we discussing this Creaky? We all know the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've said it before: They collect and dilute Jen's sweat to make the dope that weaklings like LA use. A single sniff of pure Jens sweat would kill them outright.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

rydbyk said:


> Nobody could survive a stage in the TdF on the ill fitting Mavic neutral support bike unless doped.


is that one of those 80s cage pedal??!#$


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

rydbyk said:


> Nobody could survive a stage in the TdF on the ill fitting Mavic neutral support bike unless doped.



Didn't Jens finish a stage on a kids (Girls) bike once?


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

cyclesport45 said:


> He's a cool guy. And a doper. You couldn't set the pace at the front of the (doped) peloton for years while being clean.
> 
> But he is a cool, quoteable guy.


That's not necessarily so. This ain't NASCAR, where racing means 'put it to the firewall and see what happens.' OK, that's not even true in NASCAR, but you hopefully get the point. 

Any jughead can set the pace or get in the break. They usually blow up, like Jens usually did. Meanwhile, the ones that are systematically doping are also likely trying to use their ill-gotten gains to maximum strategic benefit, so not always putting their noses in the wind and thereby neutralizing much of the advantage they paid for. It could be argued that those habitually in the breaks are most likely to be the clean riders, because they 'knew' that their only chance at glory was if the dopers screwed up on race strategy and didn't reel them in soon enough. 

Plus, it pays to recall that this isn't a sport, it's a spectacle. These guys are paid to get their jerseys in the camera lens, and staking out a spot as everyone's favorite hardman by continually riding like a knucklehead and laughing about it is as reasonable a way to make a living as any - plus it's useful for the team. 

I'm not saying he did or he didn't. I'm just saying that this doesn't prove it either way, or even factor in as a suggestion in either direction.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

spookyload said:


> I will start by saying I am a huge fan of Jens. That being said, the East German academy didn't give you the option of how you trained. It was a communist sports academy with the sole purpose of winning races. If you went their, you did their program. If they doped there, so did he. He wouldn't have been able to say "no thanks boys, it isn't for me". I know he is one of the Shack boys trying to make it sound like only the Americans were doping like the rest of the euro pros, but it just ain't possible.
> 
> Do I believe there was a chance he was clean after East Germany...possibly.


It's very likely that the East German athletes weren't told what it was they were taking. Several swimmers have stated that already. Kornelia Ender is one of them.

Here's an article from 2000 when the top two officials from their doping program were prosecuted:

E. German Olympic Dopers Guilty


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

danl1 said:


> Any jughead can set the pace or get in the break. They usually blow up, like Jens usually did. Meanwhile, the ones that are systematically doping are also likely trying to use their ill-gotten gains to maximum strategic benefit, so not always putting their noses in the wind and thereby neutralizing much of the advantage they paid for. It could be argued that those habitually in the breaks are most likely to be the clean riders, because they 'knew' that their only chance at glory was if the dopers screwed up on race strategy and didn't reel them in soon enough.
> 
> Plus, it pays to recall that this isn't a sport, it's a spectacle. These guys are paid to get their jerseys in the camera lens, and staking out a spot as everyone's favorite hardman by continually riding like a knucklehead and laughing about it is as reasonable a way to make a living as any - plus it's useful for the team.
> 
> I'm not saying he did or he didn't. I'm just saying that this doesn't prove it either way, or even factor in as a suggestion in either direction.


That's how I think Pharmstrong conducted TDF. 


He almost always made up and gained time in the mountains. Tucked in the peloton, saving energy, and waited for the mountains.

One time he faked feeling sick and rode in the back of the peloton all day in the mountains. Jan Ullrich and his team were up front most of the day really pulling the peloton. Pharmstrong stayed in the back on all the climbs except the last on. He made his way to the front of the peloton with Rubiera pacing him. On the last ascent Pharmstrong made his famous 'The Look' on Ullrich and proceeded to launch up the mountain.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

cda 455 said:


> That's how I think Pharmstrong conducted TDF.
> 
> 
> He almost always made up and gained time in the mountains. Tucked in the peloton, saving energy, and waited for the mountains.
> ...


And then came 'The Look 2.0', used against LOLstrong himself:


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

"The LOOK"... thanks for the lol!


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## ToF (Jan 18, 2008)

I am going to choose to believe Jens.


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## Eyorerox (Feb 19, 2008)

Interesting read
McGee Interview (part 03) – Jens Voigt
https://www.ridemedia.com.au/?p=7621


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Eyorerox said:


> Interesting read
> McGee Interview (part 03) – Jens Voigt
> https://www.ridemedia.com.au/?p=7621


good read 

kudos



“I remember in the Tour of Germany one year, we were coming up to a cat-one or HC climb. He was leading on GC but there were eight or nine climbing specialists who were snapping around looking for his leader’s jersey. He was riding along just talking to himself, just saying, “Yes Jensie! You are strong enough Jensie! You can do this Jensie! You can do this!’ He’s talking to himself in the third-person and was absolutely freaking the hell out of the whole group that was around him but he didn’t give a ****. He was doing whatever he had to do to get himself ready to get up this hill and keep the lead. And he did. He held on. He did enough to win the race. He’s an extraordinary bike rider.”


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

If Hampsten and Lemond were both shaking their heads about pack filler dropping them on climbs in the early 90's, I don't think anyone can credibly claim they had no idea.

Just because he has talent, works hard, and can suffer doesn't make him a clean rider, which is essentially McGee's argument. Tyler Hamilton should make that fallacy pretty obvious.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Eyorerox said:


> Interesting read
> McGee Interview (part 03) – Jens Voigt
> https://www.ridemedia.com.au/?p=7621


Yes, an interesting read - also part 2 about Riis and CSC.

Thanks for the link!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Voigt spytter mig i ansigtet - Cykling



> Do I think he doped himself? Definitely





> it is quite absurd when Voigt claims that he has never known doping.





> You must have walked around with blinders on, if during a career of 15 years have never seen anything or heard anything. Voigt is a type that loves to talk. He knows everyone in the field, and he's talking loose, and there has therefore been talking about doping. I have always been very careful to talk about doping, but there were many others who did it.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

My Danish is a little rusty these days. :lol:


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