# Flanders....who's your pick



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Can't believe it has gone this long without a thread. Who is going to take it. I see it as a show down between Sagan and Cancellara for bragging rights. I will tip it to Cancellara, but the feud does leave the door open for someone like Hushovd, Haussler, Chavanel, Fletcha or Pozzato to sneak in. I think Boonen is still feeling the effects of his illness, but Paris Roubaix is looking good for him. That being said, Cancellara is my choice...if he can avoid falling bidons.


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

The Nuyenses, Gerranses, et al might pip Cancellara at the line, but I'll pick an in-form Spartacus for MSR, RVV, and P-R every time.

Dark horse: Jürgen Roelandts.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Out at 19km


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

The Moontrane said:


> The Nuyenses, Gerranses, et al might pip Cancellara at the line, but I'll pick an in-form Spartacus for MSR, RVV, and P-R every time.
> 
> Dark horse: Jürgen Roelandts.


nuyens really needs to dig deep to pip anyone at the line this year.......


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

Spartacus for me - gutted there's no Boonen


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Sagan


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I can't believe Boonen is out. No tricolore on display, and no chance for the mythical fourth win. Sad face. 

That said, it'll be a wicked battle between Sagan, Cancellara, and van Avaermat.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

I'll go against the grain and go with Breschel.
As long as it's a good race I'll be good.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> I can't believe Boonen is out. No tricolore on display, and no chance for the mythical fourth win. Sad face.
> 
> That said, it'll be a wicked battle between Sagan, Cancellara, and van Avaermat.


Did I read that Specialized messed with Boonen's fit before the race to get him more "aero?" Why would they do such a thing in the days before a race and especially on a race such as this?

IMO, this obsession with "aero" is getting to be a bit much. Has it been proven to be helpful at all? I know in the lab different aero elements have shown to "save" .000000000000000000000000001 watts over 1,000 miles, but what about out in the field? I cant see where.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

RkFast said:


> Did I read that Specialized messed with Boonen's fit before the race to get him more "aero?" Why would they do such a thing in the days before a race and especially on a race such as this?
> 
> IMO, this obsession with "aero" is getting to be a bit much. Has it been proven to be helpful at all? I know in the lab different aero elements have shown to "save" .000000000000000000000000001 watts over 1,000 miles, but what about out in the field? I cant see where.


I hadn't heard that, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

Surprising though: when Andy Schleck was with Saxo, Pruitt actually moved him more upright because it gave him more power. I'd be surprised if they went "full aero fit" for Boonen, especially if it messed with his power or fit.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

RkFast said:


> Did I read that Specialized messed with Boonen's fit before the race to get him more "aero?" Why would they do such a thing in the days before a race and especially on a race such as this?
> 
> IMO, this obsession with "aero" is getting to be a bit much. Has it been proven to be helpful at all? I know in the lab different aero elements have shown to "save" .000000000000000000000000001 watts over 1,000 miles, but what about out in the field? I cant see where.


link?


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> I hadn't heard that, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
> 
> Surprising though: when Andy Schleck was with Saxo, Pruitt actually moved him more upright because it gave him more power. I'd be surprised if they went "full aero fit" for Boonen, especially if it messed with his power or fit.


Got it here..

Pro Bike: Tom Boonen's Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL4 RVV | Cyclingnews.com

_Boonen's fit is nearly the same as before but with one major exception. While he used to run 46cm-wide (outside-to-outside) bars – apparently just because that's what he was used to – Specialized has convinced him to run a narrower 42cm size for better aerodynamics._

Im not a fitter, but that seems like a pretty significant change. And for what?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

RkFast said:


> Got it here..
> 
> Pro Bike: Tom Boonen's Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL4 RVV | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> ...


that was relative to the 2012 bike. Where does it say it was done "in the days before"? 
as for 4 cm wider, you can try put out your shoulder on a fast descent and the difference is rather obvious. 
how many pro riders have had only one change on their bike over the course of a year? Most change brands every few years when they join new teams.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

42 cm outside to outside is really narrow, like 40cm c-c., and Boonen's a pretty big guy. That narrower a bar also has to quicken up the steering and handling by a substantial amount, which may be why he's crashing out so much this early in the season.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

den bakker said:


> that was relative to the 2012 bike. Where does it say it was done "in the days before"?
> as for 4 cm wider, you can try put out your shoulder on a fast descent and the difference is rather obvious.
> how many pro riders have had only one change on their bike over the course of a year? Most change brands every few years when they join new teams.


The implication seems to be that it was done for this race. of Course riders tweak and change things, but again, that seems like a radical change to make. I could be wrong.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

rufus said:


> 42 cm outside to outside is really narrow, like 40cm c-c., and Boonen's a pretty big guy. That narrower a bar also has to quicken up the steering and handling by a substantial amount, which may be why he's crashing out so much this early in the season.


or maybe he would have crashed more with the old handlebar. Who the fck knows.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

i can safely predict that this was a brilliant performance by spartacus!


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Cancellara is in time trial mode  !


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

dnice said:


> i can safely predict that this was a brilliant performance by spartacus!


Totally agree!


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

dnice said:


> i can safely predict that this was a brilliant performance by spartacus!


Wow, he just poured it on and Sagan couldn't hang.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

I love the whole "one trick pony" criticism of Cancellara. That "trick" works damn well!


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

burgrat said:


> I love the whole "one trick pony" criticism of Cancellara. That "trick" works damn well!


He's not subtle, he's not really all that tactical (aside from timing his attacks) but he's so brutally strong nobody can follow him.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Wow, he just poured it on and Sagan couldn't hang.


Cancellara lit the afterburners and he was gone!


Sagan just looked at him.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

Cancellara making out with his wife while Sagan sprinting for second.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Sagan's error was to take 2 pulls for FC... next time he'll not do it for sure.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

burgrat said:


> I love the whole "one trick pony" criticism of Cancellara. That "trick" works damn well!


attack like hell on 2nd to last climb to destroy the group

attack on the last climb and destroy the last challengers

ride @ 50K and put a minute into everyone

sad there was no showdown with Boonen, Tom seems snakebit this year (as Fabian seemed last year)

it appears Boonen will now miss Roubaix so again no showdown. These 2 are the creme but they seem to have off years


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> attack like hell on 2nd to last climb to destroy the group
> 
> attack on the last climb and destroy the last challengers
> 
> ...



Good summery of the finish. 


I couldn't believe Cancellara's last attack. It looked like he simply rode away and Sagan just watched.

Man; And to TT at 31+MPH to put time between him and Sagan. Crazy!


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## KenS (Jan 28, 2004)

The Moontrane said:


> The Nuyenses, Gerranses, et al might pip Cancellara at the line, but I'll pick an in-form Spartacus for MSR, RVV, and P-R every time.
> 
> Dark horse: Jürgen Roelandts.


Good call on Roelandts. He looked very strong.


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## flyrunride (May 2, 2012)

yeah, bravo Spartacus!!! Glad to wake up early and get to watch it. When he attacked I thought Sagan would be there till a few km to the end but FC put the hammer down and nobody could match him.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> attack like hell on 2nd to last climb to destroy the group
> 
> attack on the last climb and destroy the last challengers
> 
> ...


Indeed it is a shame. Much like Boonen last year, without the other there just isn't any competition; just brutal annihilation of everyone else. It's also a shame that Ballan isn't there for the classics this year.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> He's not subtle, he's not really all that tactical (aside from timing his attacks) but he's so brutally strong nobody can follow him.


You know who is subtle? The 100+ nameless guys who got dropped.


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

Congratulations to Spartacus, a brilliant display of superior wattage!

What is becoming obvious though, after two years on the new parcours, is that these loops and the multiple climbs of the same bergs is making the race very predictible. You can basically turn on your television on the Kwaremont and the Paterberg and you will have seen the race winning acceleration. Such a shame they are not doing the Muur anymore. Flanders is becoming Milan San Remo. 

I think on of the main disadvantages of this new parcours is actually the wind. It seems to be a strong headwind on the last section, so why would anyone want to attack any sooner? At least on the old parcours the wind was favorable in the last stretch so people felt like attacking.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

The moment of truth on Paterberg


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## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

cda 455 said:


> Good summery of the finish.
> 
> 
> I couldn't believe Cancellara's last attack. It looked like he simply rode away and Sagan just watched.
> ...


after riding 200k, way out of even my dreams!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

cda 455 said:


> Good summery of the finish.
> 
> 
> I couldn't believe Cancellara's last attack. It looked like he simply rode away and Sagan just watched.
> ...


the eurosport announcers were calling it one of the greaest accelerations he's done. Personally it didn't compare to when he rode away from Boonen on the Muur a few years back or when he motored away @ Roubaix. Sagan held as long as he could and when the elastic snapped you could see FCC kick one more time


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

thechriswebb said:


> Indeed it is a shame. Much like Boonen last year, without the other there just isn't any competition; just brutal annihilation of everyone else. It's also a shame that Ballan isn't there for the classics this year.


agreed. better when they can duel it out


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

matchmaker said:


> Congratulations to Spartacus, a brilliant display of superior wattage!
> 
> What is becoming obvious though, after two years on the new parcours, is that these loops and the multiple climbs of the same bergs is making the race very predictible. You can basically turn on your television on the Kwaremont and the Paterberg and you will have seen the race winning acceleration. Such a shame they are not doing the Muur anymore. Flanders is becoming Milan San Remo.
> 
> I think on of the main disadvantages of this new parcours is actually the wind. It seems to be a strong headwind on the last section, so why would anyone want to attack any sooner? At least on the old parcours the wind was favorable in the last stretch so people felt like attacking.


I miss the old parcourse. AGreed, makes the racing more predictable. I liked when there was the Muur, the Valkenberg, the Paterberg. As much as I love the Kwaremont to me the classic climb is the Muur


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Carverbiker said:


> after riding 200k, way out of even my dreams!


Excellent point. 


But make that 242km raced before he lit the afterburners  !

And at race speed no less.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Tom Boonen out for the rest of the spring.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

foto said:


> Tom Boonen out for the rest of the spring.


On a lighter note:


You were correct regarding Cancellara accelerating from the saddle. When he made his move against Sagan, he was in the saddle the whole time.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

cda 455 said:


> On a lighter note:
> 
> 
> You were correct regarding Cancellara accelerating from the saddle. When he made his move against Sagan, he was in the saddle the whole time.


same against Boonen on the Muur. Seated power, just keeps upping the tempo


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

The Moontrane said:


> The Nuyenses, Gerranses, et al might pip Cancellara at the line, but I'll pick an in-form Spartacus for MSR, RVV, and P-R every time.
> 
> Dark horse: Jürgen Roelandts.


Well called sir.



RkFast said:


> Got it here..
> 
> Pro Bike: Tom Boonen's Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL4 RVV | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> ...


A couple of years ago Zipp convinced him to use aero wheels in the classics by putting him on the track and showing him video of himself @ 50kph with each choice. Given the way he loses to Fabian (on the occasions that he does) I'd think high-speed aeros are important if he's to have a chance to catch him after the gap opens.



Salsa_Lover said:


> Sagan's error was to take 2 pulls for FC... next time he'll not do it for sure.


Depends on how many green jerseys he saw when he looked back at the group. I think he and anyone else who wants to follow Fabian on the cobble stones needs to work on seated power. Fabian sits, they stand and can't keep up. Superior wattage notwithstanding, Fabian puts it to the stones better than anyone else from the saddle.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

JackDaniels said:


> You know who is subtle? The 100+ nameless guys who got dropped.


Yeah, brilliant observation. 

He's as subtle as a sledgehammer. 
1) attack from 15K or longer
2) TT to the end

If someone is able to go with him, he loses. As evidenced by all his podiums. Someone always takes the win if they come to the line with him.


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## redcard (Feb 20, 2013)

robdamanii said:


> Yeah, brilliant observation.
> 
> He's as subtle as a sledgehammer.
> 1) attack from 15K or longer
> ...


Brilliant observation. WOW


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Odd time?

Fabian Cancellara - Animal - YouTube


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

redcard said:


> Brilliant observation. WOW


Ok, smart ass, why don't you post up video of him trying something else.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> Ok, smart ass, why don't you post up video of him trying something else.


tour de france 2007 comes to mind.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Ok, smart ass, why don't you post up video of him trying something else.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM

Sorry if it's boring for you but riders play to their strengths. Does everyone whine when Cavendish sucks wheels for the entire race and then goes for the sprint win? When Contador attacks on the big climb? Etc...


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Bottom Line:
Cancellara absolutely killed Sagan on that last cobbled climb. In the immortal words of C.W.Moss from Bonnie and Clyde, Fab "just blowed them away". His performance was imperious - a master at work.
Sagan is still young and he'll "be back".


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

JackDaniels said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM
> 
> Sorry if it's boring for you but riders play to their strengths. Does everyone whine when Cavendish sucks wheels for the entire race and then goes for the sprint win? When Contador attacks on the big climb? Etc...


Right, same damn thing: ride them off the wheel. No significant jump, just mash it harder and hope they can't grab your wheel/stay with you. That's his tactic; he's a one trick pony. Can't win a sprint, can't win by sitting in. He ONLY knows how to TT to a win, solo. He's consistently beaten by smarter racers, not stronger ones.

So now explain to me where was I whining? 

I simply pointed out that he's not tactical and not subtle. How is that whining? 

FTR, I'm quite happy he won. Think before you post.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Spartacus don't need no stinkin tactics.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> Spartacus don't need no stinkin tactics.


Unless someone gets on his wheel...


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Unless someone gets on his wheel...


Look to me like Sagan was on his wheel. How did that work out?


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

robdamanii said:


> Right, same damn thing: ride them off the wheel. No significant jump, just mash it harder and hope they can't grab your wheel/stay with you. That's his tactic; he's a one trick pony. Can't win a sprint, can't win by sitting in. He ONLY knows how to TT to a win, solo. He's consistently beaten by smarter racers, not stronger ones.


Man; I wish I was a 'one trick pony' of that caliber.


He's 32 now so I'm assuming he's in the late-part or near the end of his career. Is it too late for him to acquire decent sprint skills? 

But I wonder why, if it is true, why he didn't hone/improve/perfect his sprint skills six or seven years ago?

How many races and stages he could have won with sprint skills over the last six or seven years?!


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

I may be wrong, but I don't think you can 'acquire' a greater percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber. Or if he really trained to be a sprinter, he would lose some of his TT ability and be mediocre at both.

FC will probably never beat Cav, Griepel, etc in a pure sprint. I guess this means he lacks subtlety, but what do I know.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

cda 455 said:


> Man; I wish I was a 'one trick pony' of that caliber.
> 
> 
> He's 32 now so I'm assuming he's in the late-part or near the end of his career. Is it too late for him to acquire decent sprint skills?
> ...


Because he's a specialist. Probably to get the kind of jump he would need to win sprints he would cut into his ability to get up hills. He is already at the bleeding edge as a TTer...


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

robdamanii said:


> Right, same damn thing: ride them off the wheel. No significant jump, just mash it harder and hope they can't grab your wheel/stay with you. That's his tactic; he's a one trick pony. Can't win a sprint, can't win by sitting in. He ONLY knows how to TT to a win, solo. He's consistently beaten by smarter racers, not stronger ones.
> 
> So now explain to me where was I whining?
> 
> ...


I'm a little lost on your tactical comment. When are sprinters tactical? Basically riding until 200m to the line and then playing to their strength?

From what I've seen from fc on his last two wins.

He took off 30km out and won.

This time Sagan try to hang with him, and he took off at a specific point, similar to what he did to Boonen in 2010. I'm sure it was tactical, he relied on his team early on but he played the race to his strength. I don't know how more tactical you can get then that. When you achieve a victory based on your strength, shiet.

The question why weren't the other riders/team more tactical to get fc off of his game?


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## adam_mac84 (Sep 22, 2010)

I was amazed to see FC's team on the front so well. Previous races they seem to have left him hanging out there on his own. Support like that will certainly help him next weekend


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

r1lee said:


> I'm a little lost on your tactical comment. When are sprinters tactical? Basically riding until 200m to the line and then playing to their strength?
> 
> From what I've seen from fc on his last two wins.
> 
> ...


They do get him off his game. See Strade Bianche this year. See San Remo. See Roubaix and Flanders in 2011.

They are wise to his "I have the most power so I win from 30K" deal. If someone can sit in his slipstream, he has the choice to tow them to the line (and probably lose) or he can sit back and wait for the peloton to catch. He ends up towing the victor to the line almost every time.

If he were smart, he'd see that attack not sticking and shut it down to try again, not just keep stubbornly hoping that the guys in his slipstream will fall off (they usually don't.) That's what I mean that he's a one trick pony (although a very powerful one trick pony at that.)

As for "sprinters are not tactical" do you really believe there's no tactics in working through a leadout train or freelancing off another sprinter? It's (again) not just a case of "strongest man wins."


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> Look to me like Sagan was on his wheel. How did that work out?


There are days when brute force overcomes. This was one of them.

How'd it go for the last 8 or so classics he's ridden (and finished on the podium of?)


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> the eurosport announcers were calling it one of the greaest accelerations he's done. Personally it didn't compare to when he rode away from Boonen on the Muur a few years back or when he motored away @ Roubaix.


I agree 100%.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

He uses the tools he has, not the ones some armchair quarterbacks think he should have. How many of the races on his palmares would he have won by sitting in and trying to win in bunch sprints? Any of them?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

heh, this is funny. The "Cancellara's tactics suck" debate on the day he wins the Ronde.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Any details what happened to Boonen?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> He uses the tools he has, not the ones some armchair quarterbacks think he should have. How many of the races on his palmares would he have won by sitting in and trying to win in bunch sprints? Any of them?


Does that make him any less of a one trick pony?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

foto said:


> Any details what happened to Boonen?


Hip and elbow injuries. No fractures but won't race roubaix.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Does that make him any less of a one trick pony?


What point are you trying to make? I think everyone understands he's not a sprinter or a GC contender. Most of the pro peloton would give their left nut to be able to do what he did today.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Fireform said:


> What point are you trying to make? I think everyone understands he's not a sprinter or a GC contender. Most of the pro peloton would give their left nut to be able to do what he did today.


I say again:

All they have to do is follow him.

David Harmon commented on it today, saying that some days he's stronger than the other contenders (and loses tactically) and on a few occasions, he's just stronger to the point of tactics becoming irrelevant. 

He relies on brute strength and luck, if someone is able to follow him, he loses. He has no second option. That's the point I'm trying to make.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

the "one trick" is like a pitcher with a great fastball or a home run hitter: it's DAMN impressive thing to witness. if there were an issue with the "one trick", then it would be if it were no longer consistently effective (which some were suggesting was the case now that sagan is on the scene). today proved that theory wrong. 

when healthy, fabian is one of the very few men in the peloton who can put sagan in the hurt locker (which was a truly stunning thing to witness, btw), and he is still a force to be dealt with. one trick or not. 

apart from that, i'll take issue with the luck comment; at some point, even great athletes benefit from luck. so, what?


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I say again:
> 
> All they have to do is follow him.
> 
> ...


Thats like saying all you have to do to beat Cav is stay on his wheel and then beat him to the line. Its true, but so what? All i have to do to fly is grow feathers and flap my arms really hard, too. The strongest riders in the world had their chance to stay on his wheel today and none of them could do it. He recognized and capitalized on that. What a dunce. 

They all rely on brute strength and luck. For some of them it's a slow twitch game and others its a fast twitch game but I fail to see any difference between what he does and what Cav does. They just have different tools at their disposal.


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## RRRoubaix (Aug 27, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> David Harmon commented on it today, saying that some days he's stronger than the other contenders (and loses tactically) and on a few occasions, he's just stronger to the point of tactics becoming irrelevant.
> 
> He relies on brute strength and luck, if someone is able to follow him, he loses. He has no second option. That's the point I'm trying to make.


FWIW, I agree- I think most do actually. A one-trick pony, yes- but when on-form, it's a helluva trick.



robdamanii said:


> I say again:
> 
> All they have to do is follow him.


EXACTLY! And the odd occasions when they are able to, well, Fabs' "trick" is compromised.
Regardless, what a commanding win today!
Sad to see Tommeke won't be able to fence w/ Spartacus this year.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Fireform said:


> Hip and elbow injuries. No fractures but won't race roubaix.


I am wondering what caused the injuries. Like, how did he get into a season ending crash less than 30 minutes into the race?


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## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

cda 455 said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> 
> But make that 242km raced before he lit the afterburners  !
> ...


Even more amazing! But that I think I could do!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> I say again:
> 
> All they have to do is follow him.
> 
> ...


The problem isn't that Cancellara isn't well rounded enough. The problem is that he is on a team with zero depth, therefore he has no cards to play to get those that do come with him to do any work.

Today the course was hard enough that it didn't matter.


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## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

atpjunkie said:


> the eurosport announcers were calling it one of the greaest accelerations he's done. Personally it didn't compare to when he rode away from Boonen on the Muur a few years back or when he motored away @ Roubaix. Sagan held as long as he could and when the elastic snapped you could see FCC kick one more time


But it has been so long since he has done it! As the little girl in the commercial says, We want more, we want more!


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

robdamanii said:


> I say again:
> 
> All they have to do is follow him.
> 
> ...


And they fail to follow him frequently enough that he is recognized as one of the best spring classics riders of the era. Your point reads like this: "he only wins because he is way stronger than everyone else". We get it, we just don't see why it's relevant..



foto said:


> The problem isn't that Cancellara isn't well rounded enough. The problem is that he is on a team with zero depth, therefore he has no cards to play to get those that do come with him to do any work.
> 
> Today the course was hard enough that it didn't matter.


The race was hard enough today in large part due to the work his team did from about 60k out. His team was pretty deep today. They prevented all the other teams from showing their own depth and left them tired when Fabian took over.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

davidka said:


> The race was hard enough today in large part due to the work his team did from about 60k out. His team was pretty deep today. They prevented all the other teams from showing their own depth and left them tired when Fabian took over.


Well, there you go. Shitobviously came together for Cancellara today. It was a convincing win.


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

Cavendish: Sagan is making us all look like juniors.

Cancellara has clearly beaten Sagan, what does that say about this one trick pony?


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## r1lee (Jul 22, 2012)

robdamanii said:


> As for "sprinters are not tactical" do you really believe there's no tactics in working through a leadout train or freelancing off another sprinter? It's (again) not just a case of "strongest man wins."


So you're telling me, if there was no leadout train, or tagging off someone else's wheels when they are close to the finish isn't a one trick pony, what is?

Fc has decent sprint speed as he's shown to be able to win on soloing it out any even 50k. What do sprinters do aside from relying on a team to get you to the finish? What do gc guys do during sprints? Lol.. All one trick ponies.


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## captain stubbing (Mar 30, 2011)

Fireform said:


> Thats like saying all you have to do to beat Cav is stay on his wheel and then beat him to the line. Its true, but so what? All i have to do to fly is grow feathers and flap my arms really hard, too. The strongest riders in the world had their chance to stay on his wheel today and none of them could do it. He recognized and capitalized on that. What a dunce.
> 
> They all rely on brute strength and luck. For some of them it's a slow twitch game and others its a fast twitch game but I fail to see any difference between what he does and what Cav does. They just have different tools at their disposal.


Exactly, well said!

by the way who isn't a one trick pony...cavendish - see finish line - sprint, contador - see gradient - attack, the whole sky team - ride stage like a time trial.

btw, he isn't a one trick pony, he's multiple world champion in the time trial and multiple classics winner....where's tony martin btw??


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

davidka said:


> And they fail to follow him frequently enough that he is recognized as one of the best spring classics riders of the era. Your point reads like this: "he only wins because he is way stronger than everyone else". We get it, we just don't see why it's relevant..


If he was as smart as he is strong, he'd be unstoppable.

Sagan is strong as hell, but inexperienced and (in many cases) tactically stupid, which loses him races.

I don't see people getting themselves all butthurt when someone calls out Sagan's poor tactics....


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> If he was as smart as he is strong, he'd be unstoppable.
> 
> Sagan is strong as hell, but inexperienced and (in many cases) tactically stupid, which loses him races.
> 
> I don't see people getting themselves all butthurt when someone calls out Sagan's poor tactics....


There's "butthurt" and then there's "mystified by your logic". I'm more in the latter camp. 

There was a whole pack of the best riders on the planet out there. They all knew he was near the front and could drop the hammer at any time. What's their excuse? Tactical moreons, every one of them.


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## captain stubbing (Mar 30, 2011)

so who are these tactically adept riders that are winning all these big races?

btw, it could be said that the rest of the peloton are one trick ponies as their only tactic is to sit on his wheel and hope to hang on to the finish line.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

*One Trick Pony Fabian's Tactics*

All this debate that comes after a FC win or lose is getting absurb.

Is he a "One Trick Pony" ?

Sure he is. He is a very strong Time Trialist, so he uses this strenght, he tries to drop everyone on brute force and then TTs to the line.

If this strategy works, then he wins, if someone with better sprinting ability can hold his wheel he loses.

He has been losing on this strategy the last 2 years so what to do ?

His "Tactics" were very effective... he started a media Feud against Sagan, who is the main contender to beat for his "One Trick" to work.

He said Sagan was a leser rider because he won't take a pull.

And that worked out, Sagan wanted to show him he was a worthy rider and took pulls in the Ronde, and perhaps as many analysts have said, that energy he spent taking those pulls, would have helped him to stay on FC's wheel on the last attack.

Sagan should not make the same error next time.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

make an attack, hope it sticks
hope no one can respond

lots of cyclists use this tactic

if all you can do is suck wheel and not do any work in a break/move do you really deserve to win?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> make an attack, hope it sticks
> hope no one can respond
> 
> lots of cyclists use this tactic
> ...


If you cross the finish line first, yes.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

I'd be interested to hear who are the two-trick ponies in today's cycling.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

foto said:


> If you cross the finish line first, yes.


sorry I have more of a bushido based attitude toward such things

winning without panache counts far less in my book


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

harlond said:


> I'd be interested to hear who are the two-trick ponies in today's cycling.


there's 
1) "I'll try to suck wheel and win in the final kilos by playing tired, injured, dropping back to talk to my DS"
2) "If someone launches an attack I'll refuse to chase and hope someone will tow me to where I can launch a counter attack"


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> sorry I have more of a bushido based attitude toward such things
> 
> winning without panache counts far less in my book


I don't know about kung fu, but isn't part of the bushido style to kill the weaklings? If you fail to get rid of the dead weight, do you deserve to win?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

foto said:


> I don't know about kung fu, but isn't part of the bushido style to kill the weaklings? If you fail to get rid of the dead weight, do you deserve to win?


Bushido is Japanese, Kung Fu Chinese
Bushido is the samurai code where honor comes before victory
Go to a Sumo Basho where a cheap, honor-less win is highly frowned upon

honestly, were you that impressed with Hincapie's win @ Pla d'Adet?

I prefer what Jens did with Juan Manuel Garate @ the Giro far better


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> Bushido is Japanese, Kung Fu Chinese
> Bushido is the samurai code where honor comes before victory
> Go to a Sumo Basho where a cheap, honor-less win is highly frowned upon
> 
> ...


forgive my ignorance.

Anyway about bike racing. Strong men winning in strong ways is most impressive. But deserving? In my opinion, the weakling that uses guile and sneakiness to win a race is just as deserving as a strong man using heroics. What I frown upon is capable champions riding like weaklings.

I am not familiar with the two rides you are referring to. I will watch them later and give you my impressions if you are interested.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> there's
> 1) "I'll try to suck wheel and win in the final kilos by playing tired, injured, dropping back to talk to my DS"
> 2) "If someone launches an attack I'll refuse to chase and hope someone will tow me to where I can launch a counter attack"


Levi?


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## Ridin'Sorra (Sep 7, 2004)

captain stubbing said:


> btw, he isn't a one trick pony, he's multiple world champion in the time trial and multiple classics winner....where's tony martin btw??


Agree with this...

Tony Martin is probably the best TT right now and you don't see him winning classics.

The last TT'ist that made a huge palmares based on pure TT was Indurain.
Another "one trick pony" that "could just get into TT mode" and win the Vuelta, Giro and Tour. 

Definitively, Cancellara may be as tactically proficient as the charge of the light cavalry at Balaklava but he needs to be a little more than a pure TT'ist to have the palmares he has.

As others have pointed, all cyclists are banking on using their best weapons and most are pretty good at just one thing. 

Also, I like Cancellara's "do or die" attitude and combat spirit as much as I appreciate good tactical moves from other cyclists.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

atpjunkie said:


> honestly, were you that impressed with Hincapie's win @ Pla d'Adet?


Yes, I was very impressed at what he did at Pla d'Adet. Big George defeated the climbers on their ground by not getting dropped for the duration of the stage over huge mountains. 

When Fabian get's his wheel "sucked", the couple of men capable of defeating his attack (not being dropped) absolutely deserve the chance to win.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> Bushido is Japanese, Kung Fu Chinese
> Bushido is the samurai code where honor comes before victory
> Go to a Sumo Basho where a cheap, honor-less win is highly frowned upon
> 
> ...


Jens' gift was definitely more honorable IMO, and after looking at the archives, this is what he said...


> After the finish, Voigt explained his decision not to sprint for the win - a very rare thing in such a situation in modern pro cycling. "I didn't take any leads for a long time in the break, so I didn't want to sprint for the victory," he said to team-csc.com. "That's simply not who I am. If I'm to win it has to be because I'm the strongest, not because I've been sitting on someone's wheel and letting them do all the work.


Of course this was CSC in '06 so maybe he didn't want the automatic testing for the winner but I digress.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

davidka said:


> Yes, I was very impressed at what he did at Pla d'Adet. Big George defeated the climbers on their ground by not getting dropped for the duration of the stage over huge mountains.
> 
> When Fabian get's his wheel "sucked", the couple of men capable of defeating his attack (not being dropped) absolutely deserve the chance to win.


he did no work in the break and then pipped the guys who'd been busting their ass

Jens had the class to let Garate take the win

remember when Vino sucked Jen's wheel to victory? (I think it was the Amstel)


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Jens' gift was definitely more honorable IMO, and after looking at the archives, this is what he said...
> 
> Of course this was CSC in '06 so maybe he didn't want the automatic testing for the winner but I digress.


No, Jens just has class and a sense of honor

I was happy for George, he deserved a TdF stage win after all his years of service. He had no obligation to work and played his cards right.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> No, Jens just has class and a sense of honor
> 
> I was happy for George, he deserved a TdF stage win after all his years of service. He had no obligation to work and played his cards right.


So, "playing your cards right" get's you deserving wins?


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Nah. Getting your wheel first to the line does.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

atpjunkie said:


> he did no work in the break and then pipped the guys who'd been busting their ass
> 
> Jens had the class to let Garate take the win
> 
> remember when Vino sucked Jen's wheel to victory? (I think it was the Amstel)


He worked his butt off defending Lance's lead for the whole race then he worked his butt off avoid getting dropped in the hardest mountain stage of the Tour by a bunch of smaller climbers. 

These guys are paid for results, not goodwill. 1st wheel across the line wins.

And yes, Jens worked too hard and didn't demand enough of Vino. He even continued after Vino tried to drop him w/5k to go. It was Leige 2005 and Jens' mistake in my opinion.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Sagan gets paid back by Loren Rowney at Redlands Classic


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Bill2 said:


> Sagan gets paid back by Loren Rowney at Redlands Classic



:lol: :lol:


That's awesome!


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

And he's granted a pardon by his victim


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