# Improved Stroke



## dnoyeB (Jul 11, 2008)

I basically just mash the pedals down. I try to pull vertical sometimes, mostly when I am climbing. Now Im trying to hang with some friends on a 100 mile ride. Its tough. I think I can improve my stroke.

How should I go about this? Is there any equipment I can try, or maybe a local list of coaches in Southeast Michigan?

I am not a racer and don't have lots of money to spend, but it would be nice to actually get the most out of my pedaling, within reason.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

dnoyeB said:


> I basically just mash the pedals down. I try to pull vertical sometimes, mostly when I am climbing. Now Im trying to hang with some friends on a 100 mile ride. Its tough. I think I can improve my stroke.
> How should I go about this? Is there any equipment I can try, or maybe a local list of coaches in Southeast Michigan?
> I am not a racer and don't have lots of money to spend, but it would be nice to actually get the most out of my pedaling, within reason.


Let me try to help. I've spent years trying to pedal as smoothly as possible as efficiency in the performance of any sport's repetitive movement (swimming, golf, running to name just three) will save energy and allow power to be transmitted better.

Efficient pedaling has got to be rooted in your optimum position on the bike. I'm not going into that as it would take much too long and it's been covered by lots of people. Get a "fit" done by an expert if needed.

The single most effective thing for smooth pedaling development is a set of rollers. I've ridden mine every winter for over 50 years. You can instantly tell if you have a choppy pedal stroke. You can *hear* it. Use fairly low tire pressures and a bad stroke will have you bobbing up and down very noticeably. If you don't have rollers you can work on a smooth stroke on the road. Just choose one ride per week and do the ride at an easy pace where smooth pedaling is the only goal.

Choose the correct gear - not pushing too much and not pedaling too fast either. As you pedal think "smoooooooth" and try to follow the pedals around. Don't even think about pulling up as unless you're climbing with slow cadence or out of the saddle then pulling up is not an option. Choose the proper cadence - about 90rpm is good. Choose a very slight upgrade so the bike doesn't run away from you. I mean *very* slight.

Don't think about pushing down as this comes natural to us. Think of pulling back through the bottom bracket spindle. This uses the prime mover muscles, the glutes and hamstrings. The action is the same as scraping dog-doo of the bottom of the shoe.

Here are the big tips that work well for me - think *smooth* and ride with no upper body cheating motions ~ no bobbing at all. The upper body should be dead still. I've been doing this drill for years and now added one workout weekly where I do short intervals (10-30 seconds, repeated) using very high gears at low revs while trying to pedal around as much of the circle as possible with zero upper body movement. This is a drill developed by two of the world's leading riders in their day - Chris Boardman and Graeme Obree. It helps develop core stability muscles, much needed for smooth pedaling.

The other tip is a mental visualization thing. When pedaling at normal cadence on your pedal stroke development day, after you have warmed up for a while, imagine yourself using cranks that are 2" long. Really concentrate on this and you will feel your pedal stroke smooth out. If you feel that this is not working then do this - all of a sudden visualize using 12" long cranks (normal cranks are about 6.75" long). OMG!! That feels brutal if you're doing it right. You'll quickly switch back to the imaginary 2" ones and your stroke will smooth out.

Then after a few minutes of this, switch back mentally to your normal cranks and try to remain smooth.

Do a roller workout in the winter where you do intervals of pedaling faster than your normal cadence. Keep revving faster until you start to bounce slightly. Then hold that cadence for thirty seconds while you try to smooth out your style. Rest and repeat. You will get better and rev faster and smoother after a few weeks.

Watch this guy -

Super Fast !! - YouTube

So to re-cap - think about what you're doing with no outside influences (racing your buddies for instance). Develop a solid core for zero upper body movement (they're called "cheating" movements in weight training). Think "smooth" and concentrate on the lower part of the pedal stroke - the 3pm to 8pm area on the clock.

My Physiotherapist (who has me doing much of this stuff) says it takes six weeks of regular practice to ingrain a skill into or brain/muscles pathway. Persevere! I've been doing it for years.


----------



## y2kota (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

You're making an assumption that needs to be questioned. 

The assumption is that a "smoother" (whatever that might mean) pedal stroke is more efficient, bio-mechanically speaking.

There is no evidence to support that assumption. There's very little evidence either way, but what there is, points to "just stomp it" as more efficient. 

Sure, there's plenty of conventional wisdom / ancient tribal knowledge handed down from the wool-shorts and steel bike / Euro scene... that does not qualify as evidence, we live in the age of science.


----------



## dnoyeB (Jul 11, 2008)

Thanks Mike! I can certainly practice those circle drills and trying to hold steady for 30s stints.

Mainly I want to make sure I'm not 'dragging' my feed for lack of a better term. I'm using clip-less pedals so I should be getting more out of them than just a regular flat surface.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> You're making an assumption that needs to be questioned.
> The assumption is that a "smoother" (whatever that might mean) pedal stroke is more efficient, bio-mechanically speaking.
> There is no evidence to support that assumption. There's very little evidence either way, but what there is, points to "just stomp it" as more efficient.
> Sure, there's plenty of conventional wisdom / ancient tribal knowledge handed down from the wool-shorts and steel bike / Euro scene... that does not qualify as evidence, we live in the age of science.


You mean there's no place for anecdotes, old wives' tales and opinionated old curmudgeons? Holy cow, I'm outta business then!


----------



## stanseven (Nov 9, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> You mean there's no place for anecdotes, old wives' tales and opinionated old curmudgeons? Holy cow, I'm outta business then!


Good one! That made me laugh out loud and I hardly do that.


----------



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> You're making an assumption that needs to be questioned.
> 
> The assumption is that a "smoother" (whatever that might mean) pedal stroke is more efficient, bio-mechanically speaking.
> 
> There is no evidence to support that assumption. There's very little evidence either way, but what there is, points to "just stomp it" as more efficient. ...


Very true. One of the very top local Masters racers is a former pro and Olympian. He has an "ugly" pedal stroke and bobs a lot. But very few can stay on his wheel. At age 51 he he set a course record at the So Calif district TT championships, beating out young cat1 racers.

There was also a classic lab study by Coyle et. al. in 1991, looking at pedaling efficiency, power generated, etc. The subjects were young, elite, state-level and national-level TT racers.

The very best national TT racers basically "push down harder". On the "upstroke leg" they were not pulling up. The torque (force) on that leg was in fact slightly negative, ie there was still some weight on it. See chart below.

View attachment 277818


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tom_h said:


> One of the very top local Masters racers is a former pro and Olympian. He has an "ugly" pedal stroke and bobs a lot. But very few can stay on his wheel. At age 51 he he set a course record at the So Calif district TT championships, beating out young cat1 racers.


Anecdote alert!! That doesn't meet Creaky's scientific proof needs. It fits his "that does not qualify as evidence, we live in the age of science" criteria to a T though. Maybe this master/pro/olympian would go even faster still if he learned to pedal smooth? Who knows eh?


----------



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Anecdote alert!! That doesn't meet Creaky's scientific proof needs. It fits his "that does not qualify as evidence, we live in the age of science" criteria to a T though. Maybe this master/pro/olympian would go even faster still if he learned to pedal smooth? Who knows eh?


Agreed, it's just an anecdote ;-)

It's N=1 observation that "ugly" pedaling does not automatically preclude high performance.

Could he go faster if he rode more "smooth"? It's counterfactual and unknowable, for this individual.

There have been some other lab studies of pedaling, again I'm no expert in the literature. Eg, one such study is:

_Effect of pedaling technique on mechani... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI
__Eight male cyclists exercised on a cycle ergometer at 90 rpm and 200 W using four different pedaling techniques: preferred pedaling; pedaling in circles; emphasizing the pull during the upstroke; and emphasizing the push during the downstroke. Each exercise bout lasted 6 min and was interspersed with 6 min of passive rest. We obtained mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency using pedal-reaction forces and respiratory measures, respectively._

You need to search for and read the entire paper, but the upshot was that nothing improved on the cyclist's "self selected" and "preferred" techniques.

The full article stated "_All of the participants had at least 2 yr (6.8 +-__4.4 yr) of racing experience_." 
So, not "un-trained", but not necessarily "elite" state or national level, either.

For those riding with a powermeter, I'd choose whatever gives you best 20-min powers and simulataneously the least amount of "perceived exertion". I'd bet in most cases that's the unconsciously "self selected" method.

Still, if all else is equal, there is a grace and elegance in riding "smoothly". the suggestion of riding rollers is good.

I'd also suggest fixed gear riding, particularly if you have access to a velodrome, which would "enforce" good bike handling in pacelines. "just riding around" on fixed gear wouldn't necessarily lead to improvements.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

tom_h said:


> It's N=1 observation that "ugly" pedaling does not automatically preclude high performance.
> Still, if all else is equal, there is a grace and elegance in riding "smoothly".


Very true. As I have passion about most things that I do I try to look the best I can (and for me that ain't easy lemme tell ya) and being smooth looks a lot more professional than the upper body flailing around and knees & elbows flapping all over the place.




> the suggestion of riding rollers is good. I'd also suggest fixed gear riding, particularly if you have access to a velodrome, which would "enforce" good bike handling in pacelines. "just riding around" on fixed gear wouldn't necessarily lead to improvements.


Ahhh now you're gonna get me started. For most people, IMO, rollers is the best method for stroke smoothing. But for me it's tough to beat 81" gear 40kph (24mph) training pacelines on our local 138 meter, 50 degree steep indoor velodrome. On that tight track you have to be sooo precise and smooth to not be a danger. I'm just about maxed out at 24mph on 81" (48/16) in paceline training sessions and I have to be as smooth as I can be to keep the revs, waste no energy and not get dropped.


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> The assumption is that a "smoother" (whatever that might mean) pedal stroke is more efficient, bio-mechanically speaking.


While people do make that assumption, it also has to be said that "more efficient" is not at all what you're after when you're full-on racing or trying to keep from getting dropped on a group ride. You need speed, pure and simple. Efficiency comes into the picture only if you want to go as far as you can with as little energy expenditure as possible.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

wim said:


> While people do make that assumption, it also has to be said that "more efficient" is not at all what you're after when you're full-on racing or trying to keep from getting dropped on a group ride. You need speed, pure and simple. Efficiency comes into the picture only if you want to go as far as you can with as little energy expenditure as possible.


As we all have just so much energy on any given ride Wim, if we had saved it during the ride instead of squandering it with an inefficient style, maybe we could go further before we get dropped. Maybe we won't even get dropped! Aren't we better off if more energy goes into propelling us forward than being wasted elsewhere?


----------



## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Aren't we better off if more energy goes into propelling us forward than being wasted elsewhere?


Yes, but that propelling forward might not be fast enough if we want to remain "efficient." Consider getting out of the saddle and powering over a short rise or accelerating out of a crit corner without shifting down: that's a very inefficient riding style, what with the standing up and pushing too big a gear. But there is no alternative "efficient" way to keep up.

The science is complex (there are at least three kinds of "efficiencies" in cycling, plus the concept of "economy") and I can only offer a simplified analogy: you can drive a car efficiently to get the most miles per gallon. Or you can drive it not so efficiently to get as fast as possible from point A to point B. Fast bike riding and especially racing is more like the fast drive than the quest for high mileage.


----------



## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Mike T. said:


> As we all have just so much energy on any given ride Wim, if we had saved it during the ride instead of squandering it with an inefficient style, maybe we could go further before we get dropped. Maybe we won't even get dropped! Aren't we better off if more energy goes into propelling us forward than being wasted elsewhere?


Generally speaking, in races, I feel like your ability to deal with surges is way more important than convserving a little energy. Also, the amount of work you can do is partly a function of your rate of work (how much you spread it out). If I do a 100mi ride at an easy pace, I might end up doing 3500kJ of work and feel pretty decent at the end. On the other than hand, if I do a fast 50mi race I might only do 2000kJ but totally blow up, feel like crap, and barely be able to sit on the bike any longer. My point is, the amount of work you're doing when cruising along in the peloton is of much less consequence... you may be generating that ~180w more efficiently, but what it comes down to is can you hang on when it matters? And those periods when it matters, are either brief in comparison (road race) or not likely to be long enough for you to bonk (crit or TT)... so is your efficiency really as important as you think?


----------



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

also re "racing" and 'efficiency' : I've read some studies where lower cadence (~80 or less) is metabolically more efficient under some conditions.

But race a crit at 75-80 rpm and you will almost certainly get dropped!

As others have pointed out, absolute best "economy" or "efficiency" isn't always the optimum technique.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Efficient pedaling has got to be rooted in your optimum position on the bike. I'm not going into that as it would take much too long and it's been covered by lots of people. Get a "fit" done by an expert if needed.


Putting aside the (scientifically incorrect) use of the term "efficiency" since presumably you mean some form of effectiveness, I concur that good bike fit/set up is a primary issue with pedalling effectiveness, along with simply doing training that is focussed on improving power output over durations and under the conditions most relevant to one's goals.

People over think pedalling, indeed if you have to think about pedalling, you're probably doing it wrong. Get a good bike fit, and train to improve power. The body will naturally work it out with enough time.


----------



## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Analysis of EMG measurements duri... preview & related info | Mendeley
Pulling Up On The Pedals. Right - Or Wrong? Part 1
Pulling Up On The Pedals. Right – Or Wrong?
Physiological and biomechanical factors... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of pedaling technique on mechani... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

I have been spending a fair amount of time working on this during the winter. I went for a bike fit before the beginning of my training started and agree with Mike T and Alex that a good position on the bike will allow your body to move more freely/naturally which should facilitate spinning. My fit also had a component to it that analyzed your pedaling mechanics. I was on a computrainer in the spinscan mode and he attached some electrodes above the knee that measured when and how hard the muscles were firing. The pedaling technique he advocated was lift flick claw something that looks like the second animation.

Perfect Condition Ltd 

The idea is to eliminated counter productive pedaling where your left leg is providing resistance from the power stroke of the right and vice versa. It takes awhile getting (2 months everyday) used to, slowly and gradually speeding up (at least it made trainer time more interesting) but it has improved my power output with no change in HR (20-25 watts). 

I decided to do this primarily to reduce the strain on my knees from mashing not to go longer distances, however I feel much stronger later in rides as my legs are not worn out from pushing a bigger gear, I can go up a cog or two maintain the same speed/power output and put much less force into the pedals. Relative to mashing I feel as though I am pedaling much smaller circles almost like rolling a small ball back and forth under your foot.


----------



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Carverbiker said:


> ... I decided to do this primarily to reduce the strain on my knees from mashing not to go longer distances, however I feel much stronger later in rides as my legs are not worn out from pushing a bigger gear, I can go up a cog or two maintain the same speed/power output and put much less force into the pedals. Relative to mashing I feel as though I am pedaling much smaller circles almost like rolling a small ball back and forth under your foot.


It seems mainly you've trained yourself to ride at a higher cadence, yes?
Generally that's a good a thing, as you've discovered.


----------



## Carverbiker (Mar 6, 2013)

tom_h said:


> It seems mainly you've trained yourself to ride at a higher cadence, yes?
> Generally that's a good a thing, as you've discovered.


I agree with you that the end result is riding with a faster cadence and that is definitely not bad. I could always pedal with a high cadence 100-105 but I would have to go to such an easy gear that speed and power would suffer greatly, but now I am able to apply same force to the pedals at that higher cadence (more power) with same level of exertion.


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Let's over simplify this to illustrate a key concept. 

As noted above, even elite racers are not really "pulling up" on the pedals in normal mode. Full sprint, maybe, but let's leave that aside for the moment. 

For everybody else, almost all of the time, our upstroke foot is putting some downward weight on the pedal. Let's call this, the "typical" pedal stroke. 

Obviously this makes more use of the glutes and quads, less of the hammys and sartorius, etc. Which, makes sense, that's why cyclists have round butts and big quads, and humans evolved as upright against gravity so it naturally aligns that way too.

Now for the alternate case: a "perfect" spin in which equal force is applied all around the pedal circle, exactly tangential to the crank. What does that require from the muscles? It requires the Sartorious / hammies / front flexors to be equally as powerful and trained as the glutes and quads. 

Honestly... that ain't ever gonna happen. Is it. No. In reality, a "perfect pedal stroke" cannot be executed by any normal human, at least not at any power setting above "light spin". The musculature is simply not evolved to lift up and push forward in that motion, with the equal power and efficiency (or economy, choose your term) as the massive glutes and quads have available to them.

Try it sometime, do one-legged drills, as long as you like, see if you can ever get anywhere near the power outputs pulling up as you can pushing down. Or, shell out big bucks and get some of those PowerCranks which force you to do that all the time. They've been on the market for years but not one single big name pro has adopted them... why not? 

It's not a matter of practice or training... it's just basic biomechanics of the human-machine interface, based on how we are evolved as animals.


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

also, thread needs pix


----------



## y2kota (Feb 25, 2013)

Creakyknees said:


> also, thread needs pix


Thanks, pix always been helpful for me


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> also, thread needs pix


Thread could use better pix than that one, which is somewhat misleading...

Which Muscles are Really Used During the Pedal Stroke? - Pinkbike


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Thread could use better pix than that one, which is somewhat misleading...
> 
> Which Muscles are Really Used During the Pedal Stroke? - Pinkbike




nice link, thanks... everybody in this thread should read that. 

p.s. in the criterium last night, I found myself habitually trying to pedal smooth circles instead of just stomping... but as soon as the pace went up and I wasn't daydreaming, I was stomping again


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Creakyknees said:


> in the criterium last night, I found myself habitually trying to pedal smooth circles instead of just stomping... but as soon as the pace went up and I wasn't daydreaming, I was stomping again.


Everyone pedals in squares when they're at max. My point is that if we train to pedal smoothly in our training then maybe it becomes ingrained better and we last longer smoother pedaling *before* we start to pedal in squares.

Is it much different than training to pedal faster? In the early stages we bounce on the saddle when pedaling faster than our norm but practice enough and we become smoother at those same revs.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> Everyone pedals in squares when they're at max. My point is that if we train to pedal smoothly in our training then maybe it becomes ingrained better and we last longer smoother pedaling *before* we start to pedal in squares.
> 
> Is it much different than training to pedal faster? In the early stages we bounce on the saddle when pedaling faster than our norm but practice enough and we become smoother at those same revs.


Just don't confuse pedalling smoothly with pedalling with intent to adjust the torque applied around the stroke. Not the same thing.


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Just don't confuse pedalling smoothly with pedalling with intent to adjust the torque applied around the stroke. Not the same thing.


I promise.


----------



## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Mike T. said:


> I promise.


where's the "like" button? lol

yeah, it was meant as a general comment, additive to yours, and not aimed at anyone in particular


----------



## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> where's the "like" button? lol
> yeah, it was meant as a general comment, additive to yours, and not aimed at anyone in particular


I was in a jovial mood as our snow is melting and I feel (outdoor) rides coming on.


----------



## UtahCyclist (Dec 4, 2012)

Hey, I know this is way late to post on this, but something that helped me out was doing single leg drills. Unclip out of one side and just use the one leg for a minute. It will show you where you are lacking in your stroke. It helped me learn that I slack on the upstroke a bit. I've spent a little bit of time trying to fix it and now have a smoother stroke (at least I feel like it's smoother).


----------



## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

Some of the best pedal strokes can be found on mountain bikers, go figure. If you've ever climbed a long wet grassy/muddy slope or had to cross obstacles at slow speeds and maintain traction you'll know why. Granted you don't need that feel for how you're putting power down on a road like you do on a mountain bike.

I have never spent too much time worrying about my pedaling, yet people say I have a nice "sewing machine" like cadence. I tend to consciously think about relaxing my upper body and controlling my breathing when climbing a lot more. Even after all these years of cycling I still sometimes find myself tensing my arms and shoulders during a climb, which does nothing but waste energy.

In my mind, there are many other things to work on before worrying about a perfect pedaling cadence. But I'm not an expert by any means.


----------

