# Thoughts on the green jersey...



## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

being won by a rider "accused" (not proven by photo evidence) by several riders of holding onto vehicles up climbs, and finishing outside the time cut twice, only to be readmitted because there were more than a few (in fact about 80) riders outside the cut so that the TDF organizers couldn't eliminate them all.

I feel that if you finish outside the time cutoff, you should lose all points earned up until that point, and if you choose to continue riding, such as to assist your team leaders in the overall, or if it is early in the race, and you feel you have a chance to make up those points, then begin amassing points again, but from 0.

If the points jersey is for the most consistent finisher, and you technically finish outside the time cut, only to be let back into the race because they couldn't kick you all out, the jersey should be awarded to the rider that actually did finish EVERY stage in the time allotted.

Just a thought.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Interesting thought, but the UCI rule still states that you lose points equal to the amount available on that particular stage.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

Ok so you are not a Cavendish fan. But Rojas, Gilbert, Hushvod and Farrar all missed the cut at least once. The allotted time is just that. Its a guess at the ride time for a rider making a reasonable effort. The rule is now clear about the penalty for failing to meet the time. In the past there was no penalty at all. I see no point in eliminating the sprinters before you get to Paris. If you make it impossible for a sprinter to get the points jersey you just get the same result as this years Giro ( the sprinters went home after the first week and Contador won GC and points).


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Hawayyan said:


> If the points jersey is for the most consistent finisher, and you technically finish outside the time cut, only to be let back into the race because they couldn't kick you all out, the jersey should be awarded to the rider that actually did finish EVERY stage in the time allotted.
> 
> Just a thought.


I like the idea.

I've never understood why it the jersey for "most consistent rider" is usually won by people who wheelsuck the majority of the tour, only to go out once or twice on only the flat days to race 500m or less to a line. And on the non-flat days are fortunate to survive elimination, and even that is only with team help. The green jersey is rather in practice the "most inconsistent rider".


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

I'm not trying to argue, but I thought the Points Jersey was for the most consistent finisher, not necessarily the best sprinter. 

I know that the rules are there, and I'm not saying they should be kicked out of the race, just lose the points they have up to that point.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

There just needs to be a jersey for best average order of finish.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

Marc said:


> I've never understood why it the jersey for "most consistent rider"


There used to be a jersey for the best sprinter as well as the "most consistent *finisher*". In practice they were usually competed for by the same group of riders so the "sprinters" jersey was dropped.
The ASO made a deliberate decision to adjust the rules for the points jersey this year to favour the fastest sprinters. However the parcours this year mitigated against this and favoured classics style riders, which gave us some great early stages.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

culdeus said:


> There just needs to be a jersey for best average order of finish.


That isn't practical as riders finish in large bunches. Even on the mountain stage there were over 80 riders with the same time outside the time limit.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

> There just needs to be a jersey for best average order of finish.


I like this idea. Just seems that everyone is not allowed to try for the green jersey, whereas, no matter who you are you are allowed to contest for the Yellow, or the Polka Dot. 

I realize that sprints are dangerous, but only a select few individuals on a select few teams are even allowed to sprint, by the peloton. If a non-sprinter or someone the sprinters even think doesn't belong sprinting with them is anywhere near the front at the finish line stretch, he is lambasted by the sprinters, sprinters teams, broadcasters and everyone else with "what the hell does that guy think he's doing?" In the TT if you finish first, you win the TT, nobody rides up alongside you saying what the heck are you doing here, you aren't allowed to win the TT. On mountain top finishes, no matter who you are, if you cross the line first, you finish first, and the climbers teams are not grouching in the news that who does that guy think he is, mixing it up with the climbers.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

culdeus said:


> There just needs to be a jersey for best average order of finish.


Imagine the chaos, especially in the early stages, with even more riders trying to stay up front.

I note at the Tour's official website that the points competition "historically aims to award sprinters with this classification." Maybe that translates to "most consistent finisher," maybe not.

http://www.letour.fr/2011/TDF/COURSE/us/actus.html#zone169897

It's true that sprinters often complain about non-sprinters being up front in the finale. I always understood that to be, not because they're not "allowed" to go for the points, but because the more crowded it is, the more dangerous it is, and if a rider has not demonstrated that he can keep the pace, people who can understandably object to the rider clogging the works and endangering others. Of course, you hear this complaining every year, so there's no reason to believe that the people who are not allowed to go for the points have gotten the memo.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

culdeus said:


> There just needs to be a jersey for best average order of finish.


You mean this one?


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## ocean-ro (Nov 23, 2009)

I would like to see a jersey for the "best domestique" (the rider who spend the most time in front of the peloton). I know it`s hard to keep track of this but the guys who work so hard day after day deserve a jersey for their effort. I know Jens Voight will like this...


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

This wasn't the Sprint jersey, it was red. This was the Combine jersey, it only lasted a few years. It was based on standings in all the other competitions and was so hard to calculate that nobody tried to win it.


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> This wasn't the Sprint jersey, it was red. This was the Combine jersey, it only lasted a few years. It was based on standings in all the other competitions and was so hard to calculate that nobody tried to win it.


They should give that to the last guy (the lanterne rouge ;p) Seriously they should have a jersey for the last guy in the GC.


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## boleiro (Jun 11, 2010)

total b.s. all riders coming in late, dq. fortunately for those 80+ riders there were some big names in that group. sprinter or not, make the time. dems the rules.


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## Lynton (Jul 9, 2011)

Personally I can see the point when you narrow perspective down to the green jersey only, it does seem a bit wrong that a rider who missed the time cut can take the award for the most consistent finisher.

However, the tour is not about one jersey or even about one bike race. It is a major event that provides entertainment to millions of people every day for more than just the month of July. The tour is a licence to print money for the organisation, every town on the route, all the supporting companies etc. That income is based on the spectacle of it all. If you were to DQ all those 80 riders, including all the sprinters, there would not be much spectacle in 100 riders, mostly climbers and domestiques riding into Paris. The simple fact is bunch sprints are crowd pleasers both at the event and on TV and sprinters provide that spectacle. Not every stage can be a TT or climb, not the whole route can support that and it would get a little monotonous if it did. 

Perhaps their system of the time cut offs is not right, perhaps it needs some work but they have to manage it somehow and maintain the spectacle. Lets face it, the organisers set themselves up for this problem when they created a climb heavy course, for example a Cat 1 and 2 HC on one short stage.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

I think they should change the name of the green jersey from the most consistent finisher to the sprinter's jersey because in all reality that is exactly what it is.


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

KoroninK said:


> I think they should change the name of the green jersey from the most consistent finisher to the sprinter's jersey because in all reality that is exactly what it is.


In a nutshell. :thumbsup:

And for all those who aren't conviced, green jersy contenders 1,2,3 & 5 would all have been eliminated. I didn't bother to check the 6th place rider because the 4th placed one leads him by over 50 points. 

And the Green Jersey winner would be :7: :7: :7: :7:

........Cadel Evans!


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I agree, the tour green jersey is this year rewarding a one trick pony ( a very good pony, but one trick pony anyway )

The points jersey at the Giro is much more representative of a consistent finisher.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

The rules were in place before the Tour and have been followed; there has been no concession or rule bending.

The time limit was introduced to eliminate those who were taking it too easy and/or not making an effort which was bad for the viewing public, subject to the size of the autobus (which was taken as a reflection of the difficulty of the stage).

So... if the rules are changed so that anyone outside of the finish time + 11% for a stage is disqualified then maybe another new rule could introduced so that anyone outside of the winning sprinter's time + 11% for the last 250m is disqualified. This would stop the climbers disrespecting the viewing public by free-wheeling over the finish line. That would even things up a bit :wink:


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

Salsa_Lover said:


> I agree, the tour green jersey is this year rewarding a one trick pony ( a very good pony, but one trick pony anyway )
> 
> The points jersey at the Giro is much more representative of a consistent finisher.


Overall 2nd and 3rd also went to one trick ponies who wheel sucked all the time apart from when the roads went up.


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## Buzzard (Sep 7, 2004)

culdeus said:


> There just needs to be a jersey for best average order of finish.


That's basically the yellow jersey, isn't it?


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## baker921 (Jul 20, 2007)

Salsa_Lover said:


> The points jersey at the Giro is much more representative of a consistent finisher.


Did you watch this years Giro?

Here's a reminder of the results:
http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Giroditalia/2011/classifiche/it/t_21_class_RETIRED.shtml?lang=en

GC Winner A Contador
Points Winner A contador
Mountains Second A Contador
Azurri d'Italia Winner A Contador
Combativity Winner A Contador

and the one trick sprinters all went home after the first week. 
http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Giroditalia/2011/classifiche/it/t_21_class_RETIRED.shtml?lang=en

Is that what you want your Grand Tours to look like?


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## superjesus (Jul 26, 2010)

Hawayyan said:


> being won by a rider "accused" (not proven by photo evidence) by several riders of holding onto vehicles up climbs, and finishing outside the time cut twice, only to be readmitted because there were more than a few (in fact about 80) riders outside the cut so that the TDF organizers couldn't eliminate them all.
> 
> I feel that if you finish outside the time cutoff, you should lose all points earned up until that point, and if you choose to continue riding, such as to assist your team leaders in the overall, or if it is early in the race, and you feel you have a chance to make up those points, then begin amassing points again, but from 0.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is that it's better to finish outside the time constraints earlier in the tour? If you don't finish on time in stage 3 you only stand to lose a handful of points. If you don't finish within the time cutoff on stage 19, by your system, the rider stands to lose much more because he's potentially accumulated many more points than were possible by stage 3.

By your system, a rider that finishes within the time constraints on every stage but stage 3 has a better shot at being the "most consistent finisher" than someone who finishes within the time cutoff on every stage but stage 19, despite that they both only missed the time cutoff on one stage each. 

Part of this issue necessarily accounts for the order of the stages. If the mountain stages were first, it wouldn't matter if the sprinters finished outside the time cutoff. They'd have no points to lose.


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## Hawayyan (Feb 26, 2002)

I understand your point, but to me, if you finish outside the time limit, you lose whatever you have before that moment, because technically they could excuse you from the rest of the tour. 

Who decides how many riders make up a large enough groupetto to allow them to stay in the race, even though they are outside the cut? Is it an arbitrary number that is decided upon, or is it in a rule somewhere that if X amount of riders or Y percentage of total riders are in a group that finished outside the time cut, then that group will be allowed to stay?


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

Hawayyan said:


> ....
> 
> Who decides how many riders make up a large enough groupetto to allow them to stay in the race, even though they are outside the cut? ...


Already answered elsewhere. It's UCI Rule 2.6.032 

========
The finishing deadline shall be set in the specific regulations for each race in accordance with the characteristics of the stage.
The commissaires panel may extend the finishing time limits after consultation with the organiser.
In case riders out of the time limit are given a second chance by the president of the commissaires panel, they shall have confiscated the equivalent points awarded to the winner of this same stage to their individual general classification by points even if their points total in this classification becomes negative.
=========

You might not like it but these are the UCI rules and were followed in the TdF.

I do seem to remember that they did bend the rules on one occasion however. When LA took that famous shortcut across the field after the Beloki crash, he technically had failed to complete the official course. The commissaires just gave a gallic shrug of the shoulders when asked about it; very sensible IMHO, as is their implementation of Rule 2.6.032.


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## erj549 (Jul 26, 2008)

I think they should change the "Most Combative Rider" to the Vino Award. Each day, the previous day's Vino Award winner would get to wear this jersey:


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