# Lubrication Suggestions for Freehub Pawls



## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

I have been dealing with a knocking/twanging sound coming from my freehub. The sound would manifest when I start pedaling from a coast. I found the problem to be caused by grease on the pawls. The grease caused the pawls to stick momentarily in the "coasting" position, and would cause a knock/twang when they engaged the ratchets. I removed all the grease and the noise disappeared.

So my question is: what should I be using to lubricate the pawls? Oil and lube are relatively cheap, so I don't mind getting a good bottle. 

Thanks!


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## acidzerocool (Aug 1, 2007)

Slick Honey.


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

i'ved used oil for lubing up the pawls on several wheels and it seems to work great. I have a big jug of the shimano mineral oil for hydraulic brakes so i put it on all kinds of things.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

A heavy oil (or a very light grease?)

I like Phil Wood's Tenacious Oil.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rhino4Five said:


> I have been dealing with a knocking/twanging sound coming from my freehub. The sound would manifest when I start pedaling from a coast. I found the problem to be caused by grease on the pawls. The grease caused the pawls to stick momentarily in the "coasting" position, and would cause a knock/twang when they engaged the ratchets. I removed all the grease and the noise disappeared.
> 
> So my question is: what should I be using to lubricate the pawls? Oil and lube are relatively cheap, so I don't mind getting a good bottle.
> 
> Thanks!


What make of hub? It makes a difference!


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> What make of hub? It makes a difference!


The hub is an Ultegra 6600.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rhino4Five said:


> The hub is an Ultegra 6600.


Ahhh then you need a Morningstar Freehub Buddy for purging the old gunk and re-installing the new lube. Paul also markets a special lube for that hyperglide unit.


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> A heavy oil (or a very light grease?)
> 
> I like Phil Wood's Tenacious Oil.


Is this oil too thick? I was thinking a heavy oil might cause sticking.


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

acidzerocool said:


> Slick Honey.


HAhahAHA! So I was trying to think of a clever retort, until I realized this is a real product.

From the interweb:
"Slick Honey has a superior ability to reduce sliding friction making it ideal for lubricating o-rings, seals, bushings, and any other sliding or pivoting parts that require a super-slick yet mildly tacky grease."

This stuff works on pawls? The "mildy tacky" sounds like it could mean "slightly sticky," which would probably lead to more knocking.


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> Ahhh then you need a Morningstar Freehub Buddy for purging the old gunk and re-installing the new lube. Paul also markets a special lube for that hyperglide unit.


Sorry, some of this was over my head (still a newb). Can you explain why different hubs would need different types of lube for the pawls? Or is it more of an application thing? Even a link would be fine.

Wheels are still pretty new, so I don't have much gunk build up. The problem was the grease itself. I can get to the pawls easily, so I don't think I need a special tool. The ratchets were a bit more of a challenge, but nothing a swab couldnt handle. The bearings are still well greased.

Am I missing something here?


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

*How about Triflow?*



MarshallH1987 said:


> i'ved used oil for lubing up the pawls on several wheels and it seems to work great. I have a big jug of the shimano mineral oil for hydraulic brakes so i put it on all kinds of things.


My mountain bike is still on V-breaks, so I don't think I need a jug of shimano mineral oil. Although, the thought of upgrading my mountain bike to complement the big jug has crossed my mind, it's not really cost effective right now.

Would you say Triflow lube is a similar concept? It says superior lubricant right in the name!  

http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Superior_pen/pen.html


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rhino4Five said:


> Sorry, some of this was over my head (still a newb). Can you explain why different hubs would need different types of lube for the pawls? Or is it more of an application thing? Even a link would be fine.


Some manufacturers specify certain lubes. For instance, for two hubs that I've owned - DT-Swiss and Chris King. They sell their own lube.



> Wheels are still pretty new, so I don't have much gunk build up. The problem was the grease itself.


How the heck did grease get in there?



> I can get to the pawls easily, so I don't think I need a special tool. The ratchets were a bit more of a challenge, but nothing a swab couldnt handle.


You can? Please tell me how.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Rhino4Five said:


> Is this oil too thick? I was thinking a heavy oil might cause sticking.


No problem. It's heavy for oil, but it is oil; i.e., it's liquid throughout the normal range of temperatures. And while it is "tenacious" in the sense that it clings to the parts, it is very slick.


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> Some manufacturers specify certain lubes. For instance, for two hubs that I've owned - DT-Swiss and Chris King. They sell their own lube.
> 
> 
> How the heck did grease get in there?
> ...


Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification regarding the different manufacturers. It seems so obvious now.

I assume the pawls were greased when the wheel was assembled. I took the bike to a shop for a hub overhaul, and they said they greased everything. They weren't kidding -there was grease everywhere. The pawls were submerged. The hub overhaul actually made the knocking much more frequent. So yes, I paid $30 bucks for a hub overhaul I didn't need which actually made the problem worse. 

When I remove the freehub body, the pawls are visibly exposed on the outer perimeter and easily accessible. I used a pick to remove the spring and pawls. I just wiped everything down with a paper towel and re-assembled.

The ratchets were on the inner perimeter of the hub body. I just wiped off as much of the grease as I could with a paper towel and swabs.


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## jmlapoint (Sep 4, 2008)

Phil's Tenacious Oil has always worked well for me, but any heavy/thick oil will do.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Rhino4Five said:


> Would you say Triflow lube is a similar concept? It says superior lubricant right in the name!


No. Not really similar. triflow is much thinner. It's "superior" for some uses -- lower pressure and limited/slow movement (excellent for derailleur pivots, IME) -- but not so good for this application, where the frequency and speed at which the parts collide will wipe a thinner lube away. A heavy oil is the thing. 

And that business of manufacturers recommending their own brand of lube is a bit of a scam. They don't really differ that much, usually.


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## Metaluna (Aug 26, 2005)

I haven't had occasion to service a Shimano freehub yet, but the last time I lubed a Campy hub, I used a very thin coat of Park grease on the ratchet. Seems to work okay, but next time I think I'm going to try Phil Tenacious. With Campy, if the freehub suddenly becomes really quiet, you know you used too much grease.

I also have some Finish Line Extreme Fluoro grease (which is basically pure PTFE/Teflon, used for lubing cables, folding bike couplers, o-rings, etc.) that I suspect might work well, but I'll probably stick with the more proven lubes.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

Rhino4Five said:


> When I remove the freehub body, the pawls are visibly exposed on the outer perimeter and easily accessible. I used a pick to remove the spring and pawls. I just wiped everything down with a paper towel and re-assembled.
> 
> The ratchets were on the inner perimeter of the hub body. I just wiped off as much of the grease as I could with a paper towel and swabs.


Something is not right if you can see the pawls on an Ultegra 6600 hub...are you sure it's not a DuraAce 7800?

I generally use Triflow for pawls in Mavic, White Ind etc style freehub bodies....it's nice and light but lasts well and doesn't effect (swell) the seals. Finishline green, or pretty much any lube with a similar viscosity to chain lube, will work just-fine.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I use chain saw bar oil. It's a little heavier than gear oil and sticks well. I live in the PNW in a rural area, I have two chainsaws and the convenience store down the road sells bar oil and spare chains.


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## Bridgestone (Sep 6, 2007)

75/80wt. mobile 1 synthetic oil or spray white lube ought to work?


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies. I bought a bottle of Phil's Tenacious oil this weekend (which, by the way, is the most expensive bottle of oil I've ever purchased). I cleaned off the pawls and ratchets before applying a few drops from the green bottle. I then wiped off any excess oil.

My weekend ride was mostly quiet, although I did hear the pawls knock three or four times. I'm wondering if I got all the previous grease off. Are there any tricks to degreasing the pawls and ratchets? Just rub/spray it on and wipe it off?

I'll also post a few pictures of the freehub and freehub body the next time I dissect the thing. The pawls are definitely visible, so there is probably a greater chance I got my terminology wrong.

Thanks again!


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## modernist (Nov 7, 2005)

You removed the freehub from the hub(using 10mm hex wrench) and then removed the rubber seal/gasket on the back side of the freehub? If that's what you did, I'm not convinced that adding oil to the freehub through the back side will do much for the pawls. What you are seeing on the back side are the inboard bearings to the freehub. You would have to get past these bearings for any oil or lube to reach the pawls. Adding oil in this fashion would at best IMO slightly dilute the lube already in there and _possibly_ alleviate your problem.

I believe that when the bike shop overhauled your freehub they possibly purged the old lubricant in the freehub using a Morningstar Freehub tool but used too thick/heavy of a lube causing the pawls to stick on occasion. This will happen more frequently the colder the outside temps are. This will result in either the occasional noise you are currently hearing to at worst the pawls sticking at an inopportune time (such as after a long coast on a cold morning) and not engaging and possibly causing you to fall when the cranks free spin without engaging as you stand up to pedal.

IMO you should never use heavy grease in the pawls of freehub for this very reason. Do an online search for Morningstar freehubs and contact Paul Morningstar (great guy who will answer your questions and give you better insight). Hope this helps.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

modernist said:


> You removed the freehub from the hub(using 10mm hex wrench) and then removed the rubber seal/gasket on the back side of the freehub? If that's what you did, I'm not convinced that adding oil to the freehub through the back side will do much for the pawls. What you are seeing on the back side are the inboard bearings to the freehub. You would have to get past these bearings for any oil or lube to reach the pawls. Adding oil in this fashion would at best IMO slightly dilute the lube already in there and _possibly_ alleviate your problem.
> 
> I believe that when the bike shop overhauled your freehub they possibly purged the old lubricant in the freehub using a Morningstar Freehub tool but used too thick/heavy of a lube causing the pawls to stick on occasion. This will happen more frequently the colder the outside temps are. This will result in either the occasional noise you are currently hearing to at worst the pawls sticking at an inopportune time (such as after a long coast on a cold morning) and not engaging and possibly causing you to fall when the cranks free spin without engaging as you stand up to pedal.
> 
> IMO you should never use heavy grease in the pawls of freehub for this very reason. Do an online search for Morningstar freehubs and contact Paul Morningstar (great guy who will answer your questions and give you better insight). Hope this helps.


I mentioned Paul's freehub buddy to him many posts ago but I backed off when he wrote this - "I can get to the pawls easily, so I don't think I need a special tool. The ratchets were a bit more of a challenge, but nothing a swab couldn't handle." 

He's out of my league with freehubs if he can do those things.


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> I mentioned Paul's freehub buddy to him many posts ago but I backed off when he wrote this - "I can get to the pawls easily, so I don't think I need a special tool. The ratchets were a bit more of a challenge, but nothing a swab couldn't handle."
> 
> He's out of my league with freehubs if he can do those things.


Or I'm completely in the dark! I think I may be doing something grossly wrong since what I'm seeing is totally different from what you guys are explaining. I need to upload pictures once I can figure out how to.

Sorry, re-reading my response in your quote, I think my tone may have been misinterpreted. "I can get to the pawls easily, so I don't think I need a special tool," wasn't suggesting any mechanical prowess on my part. Just that I can see it easily. I take the freehub body off, and it's right there. No special tools, no o-rings or gaskets to remove, nothing. Just a cone wrench and an allen wrench. 

One thought: this is a free hub that came on a pre-assembled Ultegra 6600 wheelset. Could these hubs be different from the off the shelf hubs (FH-6600)? They sure look different. The hub says Ultegra 6600. Can it have different freehubs? We are definitely talking about different parts here. Or it's the same part, and I am calling it by different names. =) 

Thanks again for the help guys! I try to snap some photos tonight.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Rhino4Five said:


> Or I'm completely in the dark! I think I may be doing something grossly wrong since what I'm seeing is totally different from what you guys are explaining. I need to upload pictures once I can figure out how to.
> 
> Sorry, re-reading my response in your quote, I think my tone may have been misinterpreted. "I can get to the pawls easily, so I don't think I need a special tool," wasn't suggesting any mechanical prowess on my part. Just that I can see it easily. I take the freehub body off, and it's right there. No special tools, no o-rings or gaskets to remove, nothing. Just a cone wrench and an allen wrench.
> 
> ...


The hub you mentioned has a Freehub that looks like this -








It comes off as a complete lump and as the previous poster said, fastens to the hub by a large 10mm wrench hollow bolt. Unless you're a true genius these things are not serviceable other than to change their lube. The best way to do this is with the Morningstar tool that I mentioned earlier. Under normal circumstances you can't come close to seeing any pawls or other ratchety bits.

Here's the definitive work on them -
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html

So unless you have something that I'm not aware of.......................and yes, it's quite possible that the pre-assembled Shimano wheels are different than their normal hubs. We DO need picks. Or at least I do anyway.


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## Lab Worker (May 31, 2004)

The Ultegra wheelset WH-6600 uses a similar hub to the FH-7800, not the FH-6600. The pawls are exposed when the freehub body is removed so cleaning and lubing them is an easy job and doesn't require a Morningstar or the patience of a Saint.

The exploded diagram is here
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../EV-WH-6600-R-2562B_v1_m56577569830628726.pdf

If you're getting occasional knocking from the hub I'd double-check that the bearings are clean and contaminate-free. Also check that you've adjusted the hub correctly after re-assembly with no play in the wheel once installed in the bike with the quick release tight. Grease on the pawls probably isn't causing the noise you're describing.


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> The hub you mentioned has a Freehub that looks like this -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, no magical powers here. I don't know what's on the other side of the freehub image you posted, but it doesn't appear to be the same. 

Below are some images that I shamelessly stole from Google that may highlight the differences.

Image 1:
https://www.manufacturer.com/images...2/t/Looking_for_bicycle_hub_manufacturers.jpg
The freehub is obviously different, and but the pawls, spring, and the pawl holders (?) are mechanically similar.

Image 2:
https://www.sicklines.com/tech-info/hadley/hadleypullaxle.jpg
Obviously not my hub, but the assembly looks similar. The pawls and freehub are inserted into the hub body. The ratchets are in the inner diameter of the hub body.

Image 3:
https://www.bikepro.com/products/hubs/hubs_jpg/d1dd_ringle_pawl.jpg
Side view of the freehub from the pawl side. Easy access to the pawls and spring.

So....was I referring to anything by its correct technical name?


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## Rhino4Five (Nov 5, 2009)

Lab Worker said:


> The Ultegra wheelset WH-6600 uses a similar hub to the FH-7800, not the FH-6600. The pawls are exposed when the freehub body is removed so cleaning and lubing them is an easy job and doesn't require a Morningstar or the patience of a Saint.
> 
> The exploded diagram is here
> http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/t.../EV-WH-6600-R-2562B_v1_m56577569830628726.pdf
> ...


Ugggh! It says 6600 right on the rear hub! But I guess it must be to give the model of the wheelset. Well that explains the easy access to the pawls :aureola: 

I don't get any play after I install the wheel and tighten the quick release. I just got an overhaul. The freehub is tight and I assume they cleaned and re-greased the bearings (especially for the prices they charged).

The knocking actually got worse after the overhaul. When I opened it up, there was grease all over the pawls. Cleaning off the grease reduced the occurrence of the knocking, although it did not completely eradicate it.


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## modernist (Nov 7, 2005)

After seeing the freehub model that you have, I'm not completely sure that you should remove _all_ grease from the pawls. Your freehub is similar to the one used on powertap hubs among others and the powertap hubs require grease according their site. Perhaps the spring holding the pawls are occasionally snagging or not allowing the pawls to engage properly or as Lab Worker suggested, it might be something else all together.


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## skip (May 27, 2009)

*Pedro's road rage*

I used Pedro road rage on my kysriums.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lab Worker said:


> The Ultegra wheelset WH-6600 uses a similar hub to the FH-7800, not the FH-6600. The pawls are exposed when the freehub body is removed so cleaning and lubing them is an easy job and doesn't require a Morningstar or the patience of a Saint.


Great stuff. Problem solved. Thanks for that.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I had a similar question. I recently bought a wheel with a Novatec F482SB freehub. Spinning it out of the box, I discovered that the freehub sounded like it was grinding itself to pieces... it sounded broken to be honest. I was not pleased.

I disassembled the freehub and discovered a large metal filing floating around in the pawls. The pawl cavity was packed with what looked like Dura Ace grease which is excellent stuff but somewhat hard to find. I was forced to clean all of this out to ensure that I got all of the metal filings out the pawls. I even stripped the pawl spring off the freehub body and removed the pawls to clean under them. I reassembled everything and applyed about a tablespoon of Liquid Wrench Super Oil (medium weight, "sticky" mineral oil). The freehub runs extremely smoothly now but is (not surprisingly) slightly louder than when packed with the grease.

My question: should I get some slick honey or DA grease and repack again? I've used either Super Oil or Mobil 1 gear oil many times before on other freehubs with no issues, but never seen one come from the factory packed with grease. As far as I know, you're supposed to use oil in freehub pawls. Anyone else have these hubs and able to comment?


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## BlueMasi1 (Oct 9, 2002)

+1 on using Phil Wood Tenacious Oil. I have been using it for years without any problem.


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