# BDOP cassettes



## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Has anyone tried this out?

I just received mine today. 12-28 11-speed version. It weighs all of 121g.

I'll be putting it on a new Pacenti SL23 build to lighten up a 16lb Scott Addict.

There are no obvious shift ramps like on a SRAM or Shimano cassette nor as much chamfering.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Being made of aluminum, I hope you bought them by the gross.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Being made of aluminum, I hope you bought them by the gross.


Well there is extra material for wear seeing as how there's no chamfering or shift ramps.


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## J.R. (Sep 14, 2009)

Some interesting info here. BDop Cassettes Anyone uesd one?


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Well, I suppose it might solve 2 problems:

1.) You know its time to change your cassette when you change your chain.
2.) The guy with the "defective" cassette with flash rust on it would not have that problem.

While chainrings are aluminum they have more teeth and are not subject to as much shifting.

If the evolution of cassettes follows frames, I can't wait for the carbon fiber cassette.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Being made of aluminum, I hope you bought them by the gross.


I guess you didn't notice that it's 7075...



craiger_ny said:


> Well there is extra material for wear seeing as how there's no chamfering or shift ramps.


There is both chamfering and shift ramps.


Way to pay attention folks.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Way to pay attention folks.


I paid attention to the OP's take on it. I fully admit that I only cared enough to be snarky not enough to actually look into the thing.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

I did notice it is 7075. Many cassette freehub bodies are too...you know, the ones that get all galled up.

Did you notice from the other site the developer said performance starts dropping off after 5,000 km...and had one with a broken tooth? Okay, "gross" may have been an exaggeration, but they certainly are not, nor intended to be, durable.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> I did notice it is 7075.
> 
> Did you notice from the other site the developer said performance starts dropping off after 5,000 km...and had one with a broken tooth? Okay, "gross" may have been an exaggeration, but they certainly are not, nor intended to be, durable.


but, but, but... they weigh less than 100g!!!

Perfect match for my camillo brakes!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Well, I suppose it might solve 2 problems:
> 
> 1.) You know its time to change your cassette when you change your chain.
> 2.) The guy with the "defective" cassette with flash rust on it would not have that problem.
> ...


For a while you could actually buy them a few years ago. I remember a story on bikerumor about it. The WW crowd even laughed at the company.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

J.R.: Thanks for the link to bikeforums. Googling didn't turn up that thread.

I noticed later that there was some shift ramp / surface work on the largest cog but none that I could see on the others. I've a brand-new Ultegra 11-28 to compare with.

The cassette comes in a single piece and was a tight fit on the hub (BHS UL190). I had to apply grease before the cassette will slide on. Good for reduced wear on that side of things. I don't like the lock ring so much. It's missing the wave washer that other lockrings have. Will post a pic later tonight.

Durability-wise, I don't care since I don't ride my bikes more than 500 miles before selling them. As a marathoner, cycling is cross training plus excuse to tinker and buy go-fast/light parts


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## ghettocop (Apr 19, 2014)

bluesky6 said:


> J.R.: Thanks for the link to bikeforums. Googling didn't turn up that thread.
> 
> I noticed later that there was some shift ramp / surface work on the largest cog but none that I could see on the others. I've a brand-new Ultegra 11-28 to compare with.
> 
> ...


LOL. You sell your bikes after 500 miles.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

ghettocop said:


> LOL. You sell your bikes after 500 miles.


That seems like a lot of miles. The chain gets dirty before that.

Remember that old adage from the automobile field: sell it when the ash trays fill up.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

ghettocop said:


> LOL. You sell your bikes after 500 miles.


Ah, but you are confusing cause/effect with observation.

I have several bikes, don't ride more than 25 miles per week, don't ride every week and every fall/winter, retailers start dumping at incredibly low prices which makes getting the (nearly) latest and greatest hard to refuse.

The effect of which is relatively low mileage before I upgrade and sell off the old.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

bluesky6 said:


> Ah, but you are confusing cause/effect with observation.
> 
> I have several bikes, don't ride more than 25 miles per week, don't ride every week and every fall/winter, retailers start dumping at incredibly low prices which makes getting the (nearly) latest and greatest hard to refuse.
> 
> The effect of which is relatively low mileage before I upgrade and sell off the old.


I'm pretty sure that explanation will just add a bit more L and L to his LOL.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I'm pretty sure that explanation will just add a bit more L and L to his LOL.


That's what we'll have to live with until I get the chance to test out the new cassette in a couple of weeks (what I said about not riding every week  ).


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

bluesky6 said:


> Ah, but you are confusing cause/effect with observation.
> 
> I have several bikes, don't ride more than 25 miles per week, don't ride every week and every fall/winter, retailers start dumping at incredibly low prices which makes getting the (nearly) latest and greatest hard to refuse.
> 
> The effect of which is relatively low mileage before I upgrade and sell off the old.


LOL
To each their own.

You do realize that cassette doesn't really make you any faster?
On a 25mile flat ride you'll be 1.2sec faster. A good fart would make you faster.
On a 25mile 6% climb you'll be 29sec faster. I doubt you'll never do a 25mile 6% climb.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

tlg said:


> You do realize that cassette doesn't really make you any faster?


But who was talking about going faster?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

bluesky6 said:


> But who was talking about going faster?


You



> As a marathoner, cycling is cross training plus excuse to tinker and buy go-fast/light parts


So what exactly is the purpose of spending twice as much on something that provides no performance, function, comfort, or aesthetic gain?


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

tlg said:


> You
> 
> 
> 
> So what exactly is the purpose of spending twice as much on something that provides no performance, function, comfort, or aesthetic gain?


"go fast/light parts" is a tongue-in-cheek description of the parts. Like go-fast stickers in the rice-boy racer world e.g. putting a K&N sticker on my EV


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

Lotteries are a tax on the mathematically challenged. Meanwhile, "light bicycle parts" are a tax on those who flunked physics.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

bluesky6 said:


> "go fast/light parts" is a tongue-in-cheek description of the parts. Like go-fast stickers in the rice-boy racer world e.g. putting a K&N sticker on my EV


So it's aesthetics? Ok, someone can see your K&N sticker and be like "Whoa... that guys car is fast".

No one will ever notice your cassette. Let alone think you're anything special because of it.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

While not for me, we have a whole section of the forum dedicated to saving weight. If someone wants to spend twice as much for a cassette that will last 1/4th as long for the benefit of saving 100g, have at it. It's 'Merica.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

SRAM XG-1190 is only about 30 grams more and will last much longer.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

"No one will ever notice your cassette. Let alone think you're anything special because of it. "

Then you better tell everyone, when you line up before the gun.
Of course, when you still come in 7th, everyone can say...."Nice Cassette".

Both Campy and Sun tour made Aluminum cogs for their freewheels. I think that they lasted 250 miles. These last 10 times longer, so they must be 10 times "better".


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

cobra_kai said:


> SRAM XG-1190 is only about 30 grams more and will last much longer.


When I ran 10-speed, SRAM cassettes and chains were my default "upgrade" even when the rest of the drive chain was Shimano.

With 11-speeds, I read that SRAM cassettes have slightly different dimensions than Shimano (see sprocket pitch in Table 1 here) or in this blog.

The bike I'm working on has an Ultegra rear shifter & derailleur. Will a SRAM cassette work smoothly in this configuration?

BDOP has simply calls their cassettes "SRAM/Shimano compatible" and doesn't call out the sprocket pitch.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Rear view of the cassette mounted on the rear hub. I ended up with a silver hub because BHS had no stock of the black one.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

I don't have any personal experience as I'm not willing to fork over the cash for any of the super light cassettes; I run Ultegra. However there are lots of posts around with people using them on Shimano drive trains, here's one: Dura Ace 9000 Rear Derailleur with Sram Red Xdome 1190 - Weight Weenies


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks for the link. This is really useful info. 

Price though seems to be up another level. I did a quick search on Ebay and the usual "lower" cost web retailers (wiggle etc) and didn't find a 11-28 for less than US$200.

The DA9000 cassettes can be found for less than $160 (maybe due to their bad rep) and the BDop cassette is a couple of bucks less shipped.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Picture of the cassette + wheel on the bike. The gold color is from the hub.









The previous wheel used a BHS SL210 hub with a Shimano 105 cassette. The new wheel is built with a UL190. The two cassettes are similar enough that from first look, I don't have to adjust the rear derailleur.

If I have time tonight, I'll put on the chain (a Dura Ace XTR HG901) and check out smoothness etc.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Not sure about the cassette, but I do like their version of 12-27 spacing for the Campy cassettes.


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## Bob Dopolina (Nov 1, 2008)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> I did notice it is 7075. Many cassette freehub bodies are too...you know, the ones that get all galled up.
> 
> Did you notice from the other site the developer said performance starts dropping off after 5,000 km...and had one with a broken tooth? Okay, "gross" may have been an exaggeration, but they certainly are not, nor intended to be, durable.


Well, howdy.

You are correct. We also make it clear that these cassettes are a performance item and will never, ever, ever be a good replacement for steel cogs when it comes to durability.

As to the damage caused by a steel cog digging into an alloy freehub body please consider that the cogs (usually steel, but not always) are exerting force on the alloy freehub body at mostly a perpendicular angle and in a small focused area. I don't believe this is a fair comparison with the forces involved with chains and cassettes nor is it the fault of the freehub material itself.

The damage is a result of the tolerances of a pinned or riveted cassette playing out on the body of the freehub. Once establish, by digging into your freehub body, the cogs settle into place.

To address this issue the splines on our freehubs are very large, providing a much greater amount of contact area and eliminating the issue all together.

As for the mention of wear I think it would have been helpful to quote the entire section of the post. In case it wasn't clear, when we were developing these cassettes, we gave several Shimano and Campagnolo 10spd and 11spd cassettes to a Racing Team to test for us.

What we found was no change at all after 5000km (our second benchmark in the test). There was no visible wear and shifting remained unchanged (there are ramps and shift specific tooth profiles) for ALL TESTERS. But, and this may be the part you missed, after that point things began to diverge.

After following up later at 10k, we noticed some cassettes had noticeable wear while others were still in good condition. Some of those cassettes continued to be ridden for the rest of the season without issue. While others were well on their way to needing to be replaced.

Our conclusion was that the affects of weather conditions, terrain and rider style and maintenance habits impacted the durability of the product to such a degree that we couldn't make any kind of claim that would be accurate enough, often enough, for enough people.

To date, I haven't seen any other component manufacturer make any kind of durability claim on their cassettes. We wanted to but I think we may have discovered why we would have been the only ones.


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## Bob Dopolina (Nov 1, 2008)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> While not for me, we have a whole section of the forum dedicated to saving weight. If someone wants to spend twice as much for a cassette that will last 1/4th as long for the benefit of saving 100g, have at it. It's 'Merica.


Perhaps you may want to review pricing of Ultegra, DA and BDop cassettes. That much is pretty clear (and weights) while durability issues have been addressed above.


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## Bob Dopolina (Nov 1, 2008)

bluesky6 said:


> When I ran 10-speed, SRAM cassettes and chains were my default "upgrade" even when the rest of the drive chain was Shimano.
> 
> With 11-speeds, I read that SRAM cassettes have slightly different dimensions than Shimano (see sprocket pitch in Table 1 here) or in this blog.
> 
> ...


The Shimano cassettes are designed to the specs set out in the Shimano Factory Manual.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Bob Dopolina said:


> Perhaps you may want to review pricing of Ultegra, DA and BDop cassettes. That much is pretty clear (and weights) while durability issues have been addressed above.


One can get an 11 speed Ultegra cassette for ~$55. Your 11 speed cassettes are $140, so I was being generous. I would expect an Ultegra (or even Dura Ace) to last 20,000km pretty easily. Lets say I had to buy 3 DBOPs to get that same life, that would be $420. That's a pretty good premium. With DuraAce cassettes one is paying for a less durable product than Ultegra but saving a few grams. Your product is playing in that market, but perhaps one step further on the grams vs durability scale.

My point on the galling of freehubs was not about the freewheel itself, but the material. If an aluminum freehub galls under load significantly compared to titanium freehubs it would stand to reason that the same grade aluminum would fair worse than titanium when being used as a cog. The downside, to some, of Dura Ace cassettes is that the titanium cogs, where they engage the chain, wear faster than steel.

There is a niche for products geared toward those that want to shave grams in exchange for durability and cost. Nothing wrong with filling that desire. Best of luck.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

Still not that interested in the cassette personally (to each their own) but I am curious about your choice of three cross on that low spoke wheel. Did you know before hand that it could be done or did you just take a chance on it? I've never built anything that low of a spoke count is three cross preferred for that hub/rim set up?


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

It's a 24H rim laced in 16:8 configuration. Therefore the 3X on the DS mimics the pattern one would see on a 32H 3X wheel, and therefore pretty standard.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

bob dopolina said:


> perhaps you may want to review pricing of ultegra, da and bdop cassettes. That much is pretty clear (and weights) while durability issues have been addressed above.


CS-6800 is currently $45.85 at Ribble and $50.66 at Merlin. CS-9000 is $129.46 Ribble and $144.55 at Merlin. If you wait around for one of their 10% codes they will be even cheaper. Your cassettes I'm seeing at $139.99 on your site. So unless your cassettes are less expensive somewhere else you are charging around 3 times the price of Ultegra and close to the same price as Dura Ace. There is definitely a weight advantage still over Dura Ace but only about 40 grams and durability will be significantly worse. I'm not saying your product doesn't have its place but let's be honest: it's significantly more expensive than Shimano parts.


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## craiger_ny (Jun 24, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> It's a 24H rim laced in 16:8 configuration. Therefore the 3X on the DS mimics the pattern one would see on a 32H 3X wheel, and therefore pretty standard.


That makes sense thanks. I've never laced 24 other than with 12:12 so I hadn't thought of that.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Bob Dopolina said:


> Well, howdy.
> 
> You are correct. We also make it clear that these cassettes are a performance item and will never, ever, ever be a good replacement for steel cogs when it comes to durability.


What exactly makes it a performance item? What performance gains can I expect?


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

tlg said:


> What exactly makes it a performance item? What performance gains can I expect?


A lighter bike will go faster, the question is how much and at what cost. You can play with the calculator at analytic cycling to get an idea: http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesLessWeight_Page.html. Using starting weight of 82 kg (me + my bike), 5% slope, and 300 watts and defaults for the other fields the difference between an Ultegra cassette and the Bdop cassette (.13 kg) is .19 seconds/km. A really steep hill of 15% is .65 seconds/km. 

I know I'll be sticking with Ultegra. A budget no consideration weight weenie might think that difference is worth it, who am I to judge.


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## Bob Dopolina (Nov 1, 2008)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> One can get an 11 speed Ultegra cassette for ~$55. Your 11 speed cassettes are $140, so I was being generous. I would expect an Ultegra (or even Dura Ace) to last 20,000km pretty easily. Lets say I had to buy 3 DBOPs to get that same life, that would be $420. That's a pretty good premium. With DuraAce cassettes one is paying for a less durable product than Ultegra but saving a few grams. Your product is playing in that market, but perhaps one step further on the grams vs durability scale.


As I mentioned in another post you are quoting 5,000km which is NOT correct. That number comes from our real world testing. During that testing we spoke with the riders and looked at the cassettes at 1,000km, 5,000km and 10,000km. At 5,000km we saw no wear or deterioration. All the cassettes, regardless or configuration, seemed to be about the same.

It was after this point where things began to deviate. One rider started to see wear soon after that while other riders saw none at 10,000km and several continued to use them long after that point.

Our conclusion was that weather, terrain and rider habits (maintenance - cleaning/lube) became too much of a factor and varied too widely for us to draw any conclusions about durability after that point. We knew this issue would be raised and wanted to address it but we just couldn't reliably estimate wear and certainly couldn't set some arbitrary number for our customers. 

So...YMMV



Blue CheeseHead said:


> My point on the galling of freehubs was not about the freewheel itself, but the material. If an aluminum freehub galls under load significantly compared to titanium freehubs it would stand to reason that the same grade aluminum would fair worse than titanium when being used as a cog. The downside, to some, of Dura Ace cassettes is that the titanium cogs, where they engage the chain, wear faster than steel.


I understood your point but feel that the forces acting on an alloy freehub body are not the same as those acting on the teeth on a cassette even though the materials are identical (treatments may not be). I don't have data to back this up, however.

I also think the galling issue is misunderstood by many people; It isn't the fault of freehub material as much as it is the alignment of the cogs themselves on the cassette (which is why carriers are a good idea) but perhaps that's a story for another thread.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Bob Dopolina said:


> The Shimano cassettes are designed to the specs set out in the Shimano Factory Manual.


Thanks for the clarification. That explains why at first glance, I don't need to adjust the rear derailleur with the new cassette.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

The discussion of durability vs price is interesting but quite irrelevant because these 2 factors are orthogonal to each other in this case.

The fact is, if durability is of concern, you will never consider buying the bdop cassettes. Whatever the price. You are simply not in the target market segment.

If low weight is all one is gunning for, the bdop cassettes are nicely priced because they are lighter than either Dura Ace (by 67g for 11-23 11speed) or SRAM while being cheaper (SRAM) or at a similar price point (Dura Ace).

There is a business school methodology for this kind of feature/pricing consideration called conjoint analysis.

Of course, one can always be critical of the sanity of weight weenies...


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

bluesky6 said:


> The discussion of durability vs price is interesting but quite irrelevant because these 2 factors are orthogonal to each other in this case.
> 
> The fact is, if durability is of concern, you will never consider buying the bdop cassettes. Whatever the price. You are simply not in the target market segment.
> 
> ...



I disagree that durability vs price isn't a concern. If you have to buy 3 BDOP cassettes for every SRAM/Shimano cassette that wears out then the effective price over two or three years of riding is much higher even if the up front price for one cassette is less/equal.

I do agree that for a cost no consideration weight weenie build the BDOP cassette wins.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Bob Dopolina said:


> I also think the galling issue is misunderstood by many people; It isn't the fault of freehub material as much as it is the alignment of the cogs themselves on the cassette (which is why carriers are a good idea) but perhaps that's a story for another thread.


The galling was mentioned as a direct comparison of materials. Under the exact same loading conditions an aluminum freehub will often gall where as a titanium one will not. Under the exact same loading conditions a titanium cog will wear faster than a steel one.

Distributing the freehub load over the width of 3 cogs vs one could be viewed as analogous to distributing a chain's load over 17 teeth of a 34t small chainring vs 6 teeth of a 12t cog. It works fine for the small chainring, but would it work well for a small cog? At some point the load exceeds the material's ability to resist deformation.


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## Bob Dopolina (Nov 1, 2008)

cobra_kai said:


> I disagree that durability vs price isn't a concern. If you have to buy 3 BDOP cassettes for every SRAM/Shimano cassette that wears out then the effective price over two or three years of riding is much higher even if the up front price for one cassette is less/equal.
> 
> I do agree that for a cost no consideration weight weenie build the BDOP cassette wins.


It's not 3:1.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Finally found time to put on the chain today.

The latter is a Dura Ace HG901-11 chain. Rather than using the "standard" Shimano pin to close the chain, I use a KMC 11-speed master link. Yes, I'm lazy.

First impressions:
- I had to make some small adjustments to the rear der. Shifting from 11T to 12T was hesitant.
- The combo of cassette and chain was noisy. At least noisier than the previous 105 cassette and chain combo that was on the same bike.

Hopefully I'll have time to ride this weekend to really check this out in the field...


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## mtbwanabe (Apr 29, 2016)

I recently decided to change out my Dura Ace cassette. However, as it was imbedded into the freehub body, DT Swiss 240 road, it was near impossible to get off. So, I've decided to give one of these BDOP cassettes a try to see if they solve the problem. I'll let you know how they go durability wise. I love these hubs but I don't want to risk having to change the freehub aswell as a cassette and given the gouging in the freehub, running the risk of the cassette cog gouging all the way through the splines and spinning during a ride.


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## bluesky6 (Jul 23, 2013)

Managed to grab time for another ride this morning.

Nothing out of the ordinary. I had to tweak the cable tension adjuster a little after the first ride because the chain was very noisy on the 3rd smallest gear.

After that initial adjustment, it seems to be very smooth. No longer noisy at all. Shifting was as expected for an Ultegra set.

More importantly, nothing fell apart during the ride 

It looks the Dura Ace asym chain is a good match for the cassette. If this makes any difference at all, I generally use teflon chain lube.


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