# Saddle advice for long distance?



## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

I'm having a hell of time finding a saddle that doesn't cause pain. 

I ride a Raleigh endurance road bike. I'm 6'1 and 170 lbs. Because I've got (very) long legs relative to my torso, I had to buy a model with shorter reach, resulting in less stack than might be ideal. The saddle is about four inches above the bars on a straight post, forward in the rails, and angled flat. My posture is aggressive, though not aero. Between road and mountain bikes, I ride three or four days a week at something like 200W average power. My longest ride so far is just under 40 miles. 

I may have a photo of me on the bike on rollers if that would be helpful. 

My goal is to be fitness-limited. Right now, I'm pain-limited. On the ride I just did, at the 10 mile mark, my sit bones and the area just south where my hamstrings meet my glutes started to hurt, which rapidly increased in severity. It feels like a combination of severe lactic acid buildup and throbbing. Usually this lasts at least a couple miles. Sometimes it spontaneously dissipates, and then I might get 5 or 6 miles of mostly pain-free riding before it comes back (the latter even if I haven't moved in the saddle). 

On my most recent ride, I actually got off the bike at around 30 miles because the saddle was so unpleasant, despite a pulse below 140 and a perceived cardiovascular effort of maybe 60%.

This is not a problem on the mountain bike, I assume because I'm out of the saddle constantly. 

Things that don't help:

* Sitting further back on the saddle
* Sitting more upright
* Soft-pedaling

Things that sort-of help: 

* Pedaling harder (presumably because it puts less weight on the saddle, but this backfires quickly because of the extra blood flow)
* Going into the drops and tilting my pelvis more forward

Things that do help: 

* Standing up
* Scooting all the way forward so my weight is almost entirely on my perineum 

I don't experience numb genitals. When I'm on my perineum, that area becomes warm and burns a bit. This seems unhealthy. It's also uncomfortable, though much less so than the pain it's relieving through what feels like increased blood flow. 

Saddles I've tried in order of preference:

* Generic Chinese carbon, modeled after a Selle Italia (?): 









Like it for shorter distances. After 20 miles, sit-bone pain is noticeable, and after 25, I just want the ride to end. The shape seems to allow for the most blood flow of all the saddles.

* Fabric Line Shallow:









This was the saddle for the ride description above. Good for 10 miles. At 20 miles, it begins to feel quite hard, and I experience waves of pain every few miles thereafter. 

* Prologo Nago Evo X8 T1.4: 









Came on my Cannondale. Like the GUB, the wide front-end is impossible to ignore. Sit-bone pain over time is slightly worse than the Fabric. 

* Raleigh Merit stock saddle:

This one is generically shaped and well-padded. The padding makes it hard to find a good position and seems to hurt power transfer. I still experience pain quickly. 

* GUB 1158, modeled after a Specialized Phenom: 









Hate it. The long, flat front feels too wide and hard. The back feels too wide. I use this on a mountain bike (because it's light and comfort doesn't matter much there), it feels much harder than the other Chinese saddle despite the padding. I haven't tried it on the road. 

I'm not sure where to go from here. Any ideas or saddle suggestions?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Try an ISM Adamo or ISM style saddle.

Or try something like the Pro Stealth or the Specialized Power.

Currently you've only tried traditional saddles but ride the position of a twin rail saddle. So try a twin rail saddle. Or at the very least try some TT saddles.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

OK. I don't have any experience with that sort of saddle, does it make sense to choose a narrow one?


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## Mcfarton (May 23, 2014)

Have you considered having a fit done? I would find a shop that has a good exchange program for your next saddle 

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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

If not already, measure your sit bone width. Then look up saddles that fit your width. I've tried over a dozen saddles to find the right one for me. It was a costly process but hey, keister is the boss so you gotta obey.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

You should look into your bike fit. Saddles matter of course but not really at just 10 miles. You should be able to ride on anything and be pain free for such a short distance with a proper ft.
And when the pain is in the sit bones (where pressure should be) your chamois is also a huge factor. Also, although I said 10 miles is too short to have pain, it could be that you're a newish rider and haven't healed from the last ride so that's why it happens so quick.
Basically, it sounds like you have more than your saddle to address.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I'm with Jay Strongbow-I think it's your bike fit. You should have found at least one of the above saddles somewhat accommodating.

I don't like your description of your bike setup. If it's an "endurance" road bike, it should have enough headtube length that stack height shouldn't be an issue. And the "straight post, forward in the rails" well, I'm hard pressed to believe your reach is that short, especially at your height. Maybe a photo of you on the rollers would shed some light on the issue.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You should look into your bike fit. Saddles matter of course but not really at just 10 miles. You should be able to ride on anything and be pain free for such a short distance with a proper ft.
> And when the pain is in the sit bones (where pressure should be) your chamois is also a huge factor. Also, although I said 10 miles is too short to have pain, it could be that you're a newish rider and haven't healed from the last ride so that's why it happens so quick.
> Basically, it sounds like you have more than your saddle to address.


I disagree.

I 100% am in the same camp as the OP.

If a saddle is uncomfortable for me, I know it immediately. Some saddles I can't even ride around the block on without crazy pain and pressure.

Some saddles I can ride for up to an hour until they begin to hurt.

Some saddles I can ride for a couple hours until they produce pressure points or numbness.

Some saddles hurt me immediately and I know within 5 minutes.

Granted, all saddles should be moved fore and aft and have their angles changed for a full test, but some just don't work for some people.


Usually when a saddle hurts, it's soft tissue pressure. I will not tolerate soft tissue pressure.


And I second having to also use top shelf bib shorts. I need a dense padded chamois, 120, no less. So for some brands, they'll have several chamois that look the same, take ALE for example. The 4H, 8H and Double Ergo are all basically the same shape and construction. Only difference being the density of the foam used. The 4H is too unsupportive for me after an hour, density is only 90. The same shape and size chamois in the same shorts with denser foam (120) will take me into all day, won't hurt after an hour. The right chamois is critical too.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Way too many factors to get a good answer from the interwebs. 

Your bike size/fit sounds really weird. 

There is also the issues of not enough saddle time or improper choice of clothing. 

I regularly ride a really busy MUT. I see some crazy bad pedaling styles (wonky knee, knees way out, saddle way too high, saddle way too low, aero bars on a hybrid going 10 mph, etc.). I recall following one guy whose butt literally lifted off the saddle enough to see light and then slammed back down on every single pedal stroke. I can't imagine how bad his butt would hurt after only a few minutes. No saddle could help that. 

I am not saying that is you, but sounds like there is enough issue(s) that you should get help from a pro.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> Your bike size/fit sounds really weird.
> 
> I am not saying that is you, but sounds like there is enough issue(s) that you should get help from a pro.


Problems could lie there.

My setup "sounds really weird" and is just like the OPs. Way "too pro" for a normal guy most think.

When people go to a "professional fitter" they come out of there sitting half upright, using mainly the hoods to rest their hands, usually with short upturned stems and lots of spacers and conforming to all of the industry standard angles. Nobody ever comes out of there with a fit that looks like a pro's fit.

Kind of goes hand and hand with those saddles pictured above. They're only for people that sit on the back of the saddle. You're only supposed to slide forward when you're going hard in the drops, right? Well what if you always want to be in the drops? What if you always want to be aero? What if you want to be comfortable and in an "extreme" position at all times? Going to tell me it's not possible? Going to tell me you have to ride as much as a pro for it to work?

Telling people to get a fit done is fine and well if they sit on the back of a saddle sitting mostly upright, but it's not the way to go for all.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

I don't want to dwell much on fit. I'm actually happy with the location of the contact points within the bounds of this frame. I feel balanced and efficient and I'm not scooting forward or backward during the ride. I do get a bit of upper trapezius pain after 20 miles, though I consider this a direct implication of the saddle/bar drop (actually more like 3" it turns out) and it improves as I build strength in that area.

To be clear: almost no bike fits me. I have nearly a 36" inseam. This puts me way back over the rear tire (hence the seat pushed forward in the rails to steepen the effective seat angle, and a desire for long chainstays to keep the weight balance from being wonky), moves me away from the bars (short reach desired), and requires a very tall head tube to get the bars anywhere near the height of the seat. This is how seriously I take the frame: 









It's taken many miles, many parts, and a lot of experimenting to get things as they are. I'll look into making a recording on the rollers soon. 

I haven't measured my sit bones properly yet. The chamois is Pearl Izumi Quest (minimal), Garneau Fit Sensor 2 (moderate), and Santic (moderate+). I'll definitely spend more here if that would help; I hadn't realized chamois foam has a grading system. I'll be ecstatic if one solution here is better shorts.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I am much like you. Have all the charts and everything.

I have a very long inseam for my height and desire the exact same things.

I recommend both one of the saddles I mentioned and some better shorts.

First go to the assosfactoryoutlet and buy a pair of the NeoPro shorts, hopefully they have your size. At 170 lbs the Large might be just right, I'd try them for sure. Should be worth every penny.

As for getting a saddle, you can try the China copies of the ISM Prologue or the Specialized Power, both are under $30. Better yet though is to call around to local bike shops and ask what saddle brands they have test programs for.

A saddle test program is the best. You just go in and get a saddle, test it, bring it back, repeat, it's all free. Brands make special colored saddles for bike shops to lend out for testing. Most big brands do this. ISM does, Pro does, Specialized does, etc.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

Excellent tips, thanks. I've got a significant discount with Garneau and Pearl Izumi, I wonder if their high-end shorts would compare with the others you've suggested. I'm hesitant to try knockoff saddles because I don't think they use the same foam. ISM saddles do appear on the 'bay with some frequency, though. I'll look into test programs.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I haven't tried any shorts from either of those brands that I would wear. 

I've done years and thousands of dollars in testing to get my current setup. Hopefully it doesn't take you so long.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Brooks Team Professional.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

MMsRepBike said:


> Try an ISM Adamo or ISM style saddle.
> 
> Or try something like the Pro Stealth or the Specialized Power.
> 
> Currently you've only tried traditional saddles but ride the position of a twin rail saddle. So try a twin rail saddle. Or at the very least try some TT saddles.


These can work very well for endurance saddles. I ended up using a Cobb Randee after trying several ISM and Cobb saddles. I found the ISM's to be a bit too wide and rubbed my thighs, the Cobb Randee is narrower. Also found most of the Cobb saddles to be too soft, the Randee is just the right amount of firm for me. 

Many ISM and Cobb Dealers have loaner programs, find one that does and try some on. My advice is give each one several weeks of riding to allow your body adjust to it and you to find the sweet spot for set up before moving on to the next.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

Srode said:


> My advice is give each one several weeks of riding to allow your body adjust to it and you to find the sweet spot for set up before moving on to the next.


This may be key. One thing I've discovered is that a torso/arm angle of 90 degrees feels very unnatural to me. It makes the bike feel very long. My angle is usually more acute, and I think this is affecting how I'm weighting the saddle. Despite my comment earlier, I may try adjusting fit further before changing saddles.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Not sure I get the "moving saddle fore and aft" to accommodate torso. In my book there is only 1 height and one lateral position for a saddle. Any necessary adjustment means stem, bars or a different frame. Open for discussion though is the tilt of a saddle. We always set them to level, but today the trend is to tilt downward.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

GKSki said:


> Not sure I get the "moving saddle fore and aft" to accommodate torso. In my book there is only 1 height and one lateral position for a saddle. Any necessary adjustment means stem, bars or a different frame. Open for discussion though is the tilt of a saddle. We always set them to level, but today the trend is to tilt downward.


Saddles are built and designed differently. Some, like the ISM saddles, have you sitting on the front of the saddle. Most traditional saddles have you sitting on the back of the saddle. 

Someone like me who tested dozens of saddles would do something like I did, make a jig for finding where the saddle is 80mm wide. It's quite different on most saddles. I tried to have this point be at the same fore/aft location to start with for each saddle and then adjust from there.

If all saddles were shaped the same or very similarly your book might apply, but that's not the case. One might even have an extra inch of padding over another, along with a totally different shape.

So with the same exact position, you could even require two different offset seatposts depending on the design and type of saddle. Huge variation.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

I think gkski was saying that saddle forward/aft is determined by kops (or knee angle/relative positioning of hips and bb) - not that every saddle will be in the same place.

That is part of why i said op's fit seems weird. He is likely on a smallish for his height endurance frame (as also evidenced by large saddle to bar drop for an endurance frame). But, op has his saddle forward to adjust for his preferred reach. To me, that indicates op's fit is odd. 

While odd may be ok, op is not comfortable. Odd sounding fit and discomfort suggests op needs help outside of guessing that he needs to spend $ for something (high cost saddles) that may not improve anything.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

alexdi said:


> One thing I've discovered is that a torso/arm angle of 90 degrees feels very unnatural to me. It makes the bike feel very long. My angle is usually more acute, and I think this is affecting how I'm weighting the saddle.


Just curious, how did you figure out what angle it is?


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

I'm with Jay and Peter. 

If all the saddles start to hurt in the first 10-20 miles, the first thing I'd do would be to lower the saddle about a half inch and see if it goes away. You mention the legs hurt sometimes fairly quickly on the ride. That's a classic symptom of over extended muscles, saddle being too high. 

Also, if you're more comfortable on the nose of the saddle, you're slightly closer to the crank and muscles feel better, that's another symptom of a too high saddle.

Lowering the saddle will also rotate some weight off the handlebars. 4 inch drop is pretty "pro." Then again for a 36" inseam, maybe not! Its a matter of distribution of weight and center of gravity fore-aft, 60% on saddle, 40% on handlebars when on the hoods and drops. 

So before going out and spending more money on another saddle, level the one you got first, so the butt doesn't slide forward. Then lower it a good amount, 1/2 inch, and see if the muscle pains go away.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

I don't agree that traditional saddle have you sitting on the back of them. O.K. sure they allow you to slide back some for seated climbing. Every traditional saddle I have seen and including some of the cutout saddles, have a dip in the middle of them where your arse should be. That's the point of measure for saddle height and given a normal length saddle, measuring from the saddle tip is your fore/aft measurement. Set up that way with a traditional saddle, then install any out of the ordinary saddle you wish to use and go from that base point. If you install the traditional saddle and can't get your saddle height and fore/aft set correctly, then you're probably on the wrong frame.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

MMsRepBike said:


> When people go to a "professional fitter" they come out of there sitting half upright, using mainly the hoods to rest their hands, usually with short upturned stems and lots of spacers and conforming to all of the industry standard angles. Nobody ever comes out of there with a fit that looks like a pro's fit.


Weekend warriors not having the same fit as a pro is no mystery. And given that pro cyclist usually have a fitter, if not a whole team helping, you're completely wrong that no one gets a pro-fit from a fitter. 
Heck, I'm just some middle age schmuck and my bike was set up by a pro-fitter about the same as many pro cyclist of my size have it. I have freakish flexibility and any decent bike shop fitter takes that into account.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

bvber said:


> Just curious, how did you figure out what angle it is?


Video and Kinovea. Very powerful stuff. Not quite ready to share, though. 



GKSki said:


> Not sure I get the "moving saddle fore and aft" to accommodate torso. In my book there is only 1 height and one lateral position for a saddle. Any necessary adjustment means stem, bars or a different frame. Open for discussion though is the tilt of a saddle. We always set them to level, but today the trend is to tilt downward.


I think there's actually a range of positions for the saddle relative to the bottom bracket. If you imagine the BB as a fulcrum, you can pivot your entire body around it, even to the point of a nearly vertical or horizontal seat angles. (This spans recumbent to TT bikes.) For any particular saddle (but not necessarily a different saddle entirely), this approach implies some backward or forward tilt relative to your ideal neutral position. 

Then there's fore-aft adjustment. A lower saddle moved slightly aft can have the same KOPS position. With the seat further back, you end up bending more at the torso with your weight shifted further back, using slightly different muscles. 

This variability is part of what makes bike fitting so challenging.



Fredrico said:


> So before going out and spending more money on another saddle, level the one you got first, so the butt doesn't slide forward. Then lower it a good amount, 1/2 inch, and see if the muscle pains go away.



Will do.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

alexdi said:


> Video and Kinovea. Very powerful stuff. Not quite ready to share, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't disagree more. There is no fore/aft, or height range. But that's just one man's opinion.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Steve Hogg stuff for seat position.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

To each their own when it comes to saddles, but I find the Specialized Romin series to be easy to find and comfortable.


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## twain (May 18, 2004)

*Fizik Aliante*

check out the review of the Aliante. Still a fantastic saddle.
Fizik Aliante Carbon Twin Flex Pro Review | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos
Also it seems like maybe your seat height is too high.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Im proportioned just as you and went through the same issues. I suspect its your fit. With long legs and a very short torso, hip angle becomes critical and a 4" drop may be too much. I would look at saddle ht and bar ht. After testing many saddles I ended up with the Spec Power. But no saddle will compensate for bike fit issues requiring you to get off the bike after only 30 miles.


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## twain (May 18, 2004)

*Agreed*



Matador-IV said:


> Im proportioned just as you and went through the same issues. I suspect its your fit. With long legs and a very short torso, hip angle becomes critical and a 4" drop may be too much. I would look at saddle ht and bar ht. After testing many saddles I ended up with the Spec Power. But no saddle will compensate for bike fit issues requiring you to get off the bike after only 30 miles.


Totally agree. FWIW, my drop is 3''. So more spacers/more upright stem, maybe shorter stem? And perhaps move the saddle forward.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

The saddle/bar drop thing is a challenge, I've already maxed out the steerer and installed an upturned stem. Now I'm looking into cleat systems with lower stack height and potentially changing out the cranks. 

I'm going to park this for now, I just had a surgery that'll keep me off the bike for a bit. Lots of great directions to pursue when I'm back, though, thanks.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

May be worth considering trading in for a frame that really fits you.


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## alexdi (Jul 1, 2016)

As before, if that exists, I haven't found. It'd have to be custom.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

My impression. 

75% chance that frame is too small. Frame too small is better than too big. 
90% chance OP is improperly adjusting his own fit. 

Basis: 
-4" saddle to bar drop on endurance frame with rise stem and long steerer. 
-All this talk of moving saddle forward to adjust reach. Improper to adjust saddle forward/aft to change reach. 
-There is only one proper saddle position (+/- a small amount). That proper saddle position is determined by proper saddle height via proper knee angle at BDC. After that KOPS (or whatever) to set saddle forward/aft position. Then pick a stem to get your bar in the right place based upon where you butt has to be. 

YMMV, IME, IMO,etc. 20+ years of riding and racing plus 6 years as a wrench. 
- Also with the disclaimer that OP did not post photos. But, just getting this impression from OP's posts and total discomfort on the bike. 
- FWIW 10 and 40 mile rides are not long. 

OP hope you heal quickly. Then get to a shop and get fitted. I often disagree with the pro fitting mafia around here. But, you need help. Your DIY ain't working.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

alexdi said:


> OK. I don't have any experience with that sort of saddle, does it make sense to choose a narrow one?


Can you please post a picture of you on the bike sideways to check out your fit on te bike? 
Without this it is pointless to give you advice. 
Then there is this video on you tube that tells you all the main points and how to adjust your position. On any frame based on some basic measurements and distances that can. Be done by yourself. 
I did it and after the basic fit you adjust everything else based on pains and discomfort, riding style etc. 
But for starters please post a picture of you on the bike. 


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

alexdi said:


> Excellent tips, thanks. I've got a significant discount with Garneau and Pearl Izumi, I wonder if their high-end shorts would compare with the others you've suggested.


Pearly Izumi Pro series chamois are quite good really, I have several pair of those. I wouldn't get anything lower than the pro though. They aren't Assos S7 quality but might be as good as their lower line Neo.


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## avria (Sep 4, 2016)

hmm, i didn't have similar experience to you but i did get numb genitals, i first switched over to ISM PN 1.1 was a great experience if i'm riding on the hoods, somehow it hurts when i'm on the drops. adjusting angles and etc didnt help much. but since then i've moved on to selle smp and that saddle works wonders for both upright and aero riding.

Note: i didnt read most of the convo except OP's thread. don't flame me too hard if i missed anything!


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Brooks Team Professional.
> View attachment 320805


I ride Brooks. Not for everyone, but lots of people who ride lots of miles use them. They are still around for a reason, and the reason is NOT hipsters.


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

Srode said:


> Pearly Izumi Pro series chamois are quite good really, I have several pair of those. I wouldn't get anything lower than the pro though. They aren't Assos S7 quality but might be as good as their lower line Neo.


Probikekit premium bib shorts are excellent shorts that can be bought on special for $50. I have bought about 6 and switched all my bibs to those. Really nice high en for the price of generics. 


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

No amount of chamois quality will offset the bad fit or wrong saddle shape. Those two need to be taken care before fiddling with bib/shorts. :nono:


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

bvber said:


> No amount of chamois quality will offset the bad fit or wrong saddle shape. Those two need to be taken care before fiddling with bib/shorts. :nono:


True but since no one here knows what the right shape and fit is a bad chamois can make or break any saddle. I've got a good saddle for me (verified at least by Cyclologic and their cool ass saddle pressure mapping tech) and a cheap POS pair of shorts compared to what I like make the saddle feel like two different saddles. That's the point. They are both super important. I'd advise anyone to just stop wasting time on cheap shorts and go with a really high end one...then fart around with the saddle.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> True but since no one here knows what the right shape and fit is a bad chamois can make or break any saddle. I've got a good saddle for me (verified at least by Cyclologic and their cool ass saddle pressure mapping tech) and a cheap POS pair of shorts compared to what I like make the saddle feel like two different saddles. That's the point. They are both super important. I'd advise anyone to just stop wasting time on cheap shorts and go with a really high end one...then fart around with the saddle.


I wish it were as easy as just buying high end. Bibs make or break my comfort but as to which ones work it's a complete mystery to me until I try them. I haven't found much of a correlation with price. In fact by far the worse, for me, I've ever used were the most expensive. And the best were/are mid-range.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

charlitin said:


> Probikekit premium bib shorts are excellent shorts that can be bought on special for $50. I have bought about 6 and switched all my bibs to those. Really nice high en for the price of generics.


Aha! A solid looking pair of shorts that I've yet to try. Can't find such a thing anymore, thanks, I'm going to try these. 

I see some inferior design aspects vs. Assos, but I'm still hunting for a budget pair of bibs I can recommend, something around $50. These might be it. The chamois looks capable. The straps and privates management not the best, but we'll see.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> I ride Brooks. Not for everyone, but lots of people who ride lots of miles use them. They are still around for a reason, and the reason is NOT hipsters.


No. Hipsters love the B72.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I wish it were as easy as just buying high end. Bibs make or break my comfort but as to which ones work it's a complete mystery to me until I try them. I haven't found much of a correlation with price. In fact by far the worse, for me, I've ever used were the most expensive. And the best were/are mid-range.


I always hesitate to chime in on these threads because, as you are well aware, they just ooze subjectivity. In a general sense, I just wanted to write that IME bibs/pads make a huge difference in the same saddle. With that said, I suppose if one wears the same shorts through the trial and error process in finding a saddle even if the pad is not so good one could still feel the difference. I think I'm rather picky so unless I didn't have confidence in the pad/bib I wouldn't go saddle shopping. Maybe that's what I was trying to convey. 

Slight thread drift but it's pertinent...I just had a TT bike fit at this place called Cyclologic in Scottsdale AZ. I've known the fitter for years and he does a ton of work with Trek and the world tour team. Anyways, he helped pioneer saddle pressure mapping. I can not write about the intricacies of the process with much intelligence but, with the help of the software as well as the entire fit process, we made some relatively small changes which resulted in an amazing amount more comfort; lower overall and less frontal area. Unreal! 

So for morons like me the moral of the story is think about a good bike fit as well. Obviously I understand not everyone is into this like me and maybe this is over the top. But, I ride a bit and want to avoid injury primarily then eek out performance gains...


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## charlitin (Oct 2, 2011)

MMsRepBike said:


> Aha! A solid looking pair of shorts that I've yet to try. Can't find such a thing anymore, thanks, I'm going to try these.
> 
> I see some inferior design aspects vs. Assos, but I'm still hunting for a budget pair of bibs I can recommend, something around $50. These might be it. The chamois looks capable. The straps and privates management not the best, but we'll see.


Not really. They are top notch. I dunno who makes them but they are excellent. 
Better than my 120$ ones. 
The padding is great too. 
They are so good that they are on fricking back order for the XL. I have been trying to get more in blue which is really nice and no luck. 
Their socks are great too. I have like 10 pairs. The jerseys are not bad but are made for the topical skinny arm rider. The large fits me well at 5"11 200lbs but they are a little bit tight around the arms. The material is nice and they are long. I would buy more if the arms would be more relaxed. 



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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

woodys737 said:


> True but since no one here knows what the right shape and fit is a bad chamois can make or break any saddle. I've got a good saddle for me (verified at least by Cyclologic and their cool ass saddle pressure mapping tech) and a cheap POS pair of shorts compared to what I like make the saddle feel like two different saddles. That's the point. They are both super important. I'd advise anyone to just stop wasting time on cheap shorts and go with a really high end one...then fart around with the saddle.


I don't know about you but my cheap bike shorts do fine when I found the right saddle for my a$$. With the wrong saddle, it felt like hell, with the right saddle, it feels like heaven.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

bvber said:


> I don't know about you but my cheap bike shorts do fine when I found the right saddle for my a$$. With the wrong saddle, it felt like hell, with the right saddle, it feels like heaven.


That's awesome but, not so for me unfortunately.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

bvber said:


> If not already, measure your sit bone width. Then look up saddles that fit your width. I've tried over a dozen saddles to find the right one for me. It was a costly process but hey, keister is the boss so you gotta obey.


Sit bone measuring is marketing. None of us sit on our sit bones - we sit on the narrower ischium. 

Reading the OP's story I would concur that the attempt to locate his body to suit the geometry of his bike rather than sitting on the saddle with the same leg angle as everyone else could be a big source of the trouble.


The saddles the OP has tried so far are mostly curved from left to right, putting the sit bones on angled surfaces. Try a saddle with a flatter rear surface. We make one.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Kontact said:


> Sit bone measuring is marketing. None of us sit on our sit bones - *we sit on the narrower ischium*.


You mean ischial tuberosities? People call it "sit bone" for short in cycling communities. Which part of it bears weight depends on the rider's position. Some ride more upright, some others more bent. I have narrower sit bone width than average for my frame size and the saddles made for medium to wide sit bone width gave me all sorts of discomfort. When I switched to a narrower version of the same model, it felt much better.



> The saddles the OP has tried so far are mostly curved from left to right, putting the *sit bones* on angled surfaces. Try a saddle with a flatter rear surface.


So, we do sit on our sit bones?


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

bvber said:


> You mean ischial tuberosities? People call it "sit bone" for short in cycling communities. Which part of it bears weight depends on the rider's position. Some ride more upright, some others more bent. I have narrower sit bone width than average for my frame size and the saddles made for medium to wide sit bone width gave me all sorts of discomfort. When I switched to a narrower version of the same model, it felt much better.
> 
> 
> So, we do sit on our sit bones?
> View attachment 320949


We don't sit on the ischial tuberosities, we sit on the ischium or ischial ramus. You sit on the tuberosities when you sit upright in a chair, not when leaning forward on a bike.

"Sit bones" are also short hand for the entire section of arched bones that run from the tuberosities to the pubis where they meet.


Measuring the tuberosities, which you don't sit on, and then comparing that to an arbitrary number like outer saddle width is like measuring the width of your ankles and then using that number to select shoes by measuring the width of the outer sole. You might create a formula that is close for a certain brand of shoe, but that's all.

The actual width of the two pelvic contact points each cyclist uses is going to be based on the shape of their pelvic bones and their pelvic tilt in riding position. There is no way of predicting that with any accuracy.

We have many riders whose measured tuberosity width is greater than the total saddle width, yet are sitting on their "sit bones" in great comfort, and that's because the bones they are actually sitting on are much narrower.


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## LongviewTx (Aug 6, 2009)

Based upon the pain description and my experience, the saddle is too wide. Plus, as tohers have advised, your normal placement configuration on the saddle.

Have you tried a narrower saddle (or is the one that produced your pain description already narrow?)

My experience, narrower saddle, move back onto that saddle and wear a tight, thin material underwear base (I use an Adidas product that is one size undersized) so that there exists some movement between layers. Kind of like bursa sacks due for muscle interface points...

My 2 bits, but hey, it is the interweb... 

Sincerely, Good luck with the finding the solution.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

I have over 25,000 miles on Moonsaddles. 60 day return. Try it you will like it. Plus factor - deters theft.

Uniquely Comfortable Bicycle Saddle


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Trek2.3 said:


> I have over 25,000 miles on Moonsaddles. 60 day return. Try it you will like it. Plus factor - deters theft.
> 
> Uniquely Comfortable Bicycle Saddle


Please. There are many good reasons there are probably about 7 or 8 people riding that saddle. You'd have to have some very unique fit issues for that to be the only option. Ever wonder why millions and millions of cyclists ride on saddles that are all shaped remarkably the same?


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Trek2.3 said:


> I have over 25,000 miles on Moonsaddles. 60 day return. Try it you will like it. Plus factor - deters theft.
> 
> Uniquely Comfortable Bicycle Saddle


Designed specifically for cycling eccentrics! Be the first in YOUR cycling club to have other members whisper "what's up with THAT guy?"

I'm not sure if it would be a theft deterrent. I'd bet if you left an expensive bike with THAT saddle on it unlocked, you'd come back in a couple of hours to find the bike gone, but the saddle laying on the ground..................


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Designed specifically for cycling eccentrics! Be the first in YOUR cycling club to have other members whisper "what's up with THAT guy?"
> 
> I'm not sure if it would be a theft deterrent. I'd bet if you left an expensive bike with THAT saddle on it unlocked, you'd come back in a couple of hours to find the bike gone, but the saddle laying on the ground..................


Hah! Yep, I'd believe that!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Please. There are many good reasons there are probably about 7 or 8 people riding that saddle. You'd have to have some very unique fit issues for that to be the only option. Ever wonder why millions and millions of cyclists ride on saddles that are all shaped remarkably the same?


I have read about another type of noseless saddle a few years ago (but have forgotten about it since). I personally think a noseless saddle makes a lot of sense with people with narrow hip, like me. I have gone thru at least 5 brands of top name saddles only to fine that all their noses rub my inner thigh too much, more than I like. This moon saddle is interesting, but it's way way too wide (10.7in), wider than I would need, and it's up there in the ugly department. Now if anyone makes a noseless or short-and-narrow-nose saddle that's no wider than say 140-150mm, and the aesthetic doesn't look like it's for a fat person, then I'd give it a try. Problem with many of these noseless saddle is that they're ugly, to the point that it ruins everything on the bike.

i don't understand why can't they take a regular bike saddle and just make the nose short-and-narrow??? What's so hard about that. People with narrow hip and narrow sit bones will love these. As it is, most saddles from all the big makes are basically the same, have similar dimensions, and they expect this to work for people from 120 lbs to 200+ pounds. ugh, I'm in the 120 lb division


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> I have read about another type of noseless saddle a few years ago (but have forgotten about it since). I personally think a noseless saddle makes a lot of sense with people with narrow hip, like me. I have gone thru at least 5 brands of top name saddles only to fine that all their noses rub my inner thigh too much, more than I like. This moon saddle is interesting, but it's way way too wide (10.7in), wider than I would need, and it's up there in the ugly department. Now if anyone makes a noseless or short-and-narrow-nose saddle that's no wider than say 140-150mm, and the aesthetic doesn't look like it's for a fat person, then I'd give it a try. Problem with many of these noseless saddle is that they're ugly, to the point that it ruins everything on the bike.
> 
> i don't understand why can't they take a regular bike saddle and just make the nose shorter and wider??? What's so hard about that. People with narrow hip and narrow sit bones will love these. As it is, most saddles from all the big makes are basically the same, have similar dimensions, and they expect this to work for people from 120 lbs to 200+ pounds. ugh, I'm in the 120 lb division


Have you tried the Specialized Power or the Pro saddle that has pretty much that same shape? They're shorter and have a somewhat wider rear section and a good sized pressure reduction groove/channel.


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

As cxwrench mentioned, you might try the Specialized Power saddle. I was looking for what you describe and tried the Power when it 1st came out. Most comfortable saddle for me. I'm also narrow/light and got a lot of inner thigh rubbing with other saddles.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Have you tried the Specialized Power or the Pro saddle that has pretty much that same shape? They're shorter and have a somewhat wider rear section and a good sized pressure reduction groove/channel.


(First of all, a little correction from me. I meant to say I want a saddle with "short and narrow" nose, not "short and wide". I have corrected my post above to state this)

But ok, I haven't seen a couple riders with the Specialized Power. Nose is still too wide for me based on look. Though I have not ridden it, so maybe I will need to actually ride it to find out.

For now, I'm using on one of my bike the Selle Italia Monolink SLR. This saddle basically has a "monorail" underneath, unlike most traditional saddles that have the dual-rail, to connect to the seatpost. Monolink system imparts a small width when compared to the traditional dual-rail system. And as such, Selle Italia is able to make the nose narrower on their saddles with monolink. So this is the good part for me. Now I just wish they would make the nose a tad shorter, like 2 inches shorter would be nice!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Matador-IV said:


> As cxwrench mentioned, you might try the Specialized Power saddle. I was looking for what you describe and tried the Power when it 1st came out. Most comfortable saddle for me. I'm also narrow/light and got a lot of inner thigh rubbing with other saddles.


curious, do your legs rub the seatpost when they're in the utmost downstroke position? My inner thigh rubs the seatpost, though barely. So if my thigs are rubbing the seapost, so that means ideally, I want the saddle nose to be no wider than the width of the seatpost


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> and *it's up there in the ugly department*. Now if anyone makes a noseless or short-and-narrow-nose saddle that's no wider than say 140-150mm, and the aesthetic doesn't look like it's for a fat person, then I'd give it a try. Problem with many of these noseless saddle is that *they're ugly*, to the point that it ruins everything on the bike.


It would be ugly only when you look at it but not when you ride it. I don't know about you but I'm for the _form following function_ approach.

BTW, I won't need to ponder on that moon saddle since I already found a saddle (Meld) that works for me even though my measured sit bone width is 110mm (considered as narrower than average).


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## Matador-IV (Aug 2, 2010)

Just slight rub at times on the left. My thighs aren't all that beefy. 

Maybe eliminate the saddle all together and get a nice comfy seatpost


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> curious, do your legs rub the seatpost when they're in the utmost downstroke position? My inner thigh rubs the seatpost, though barely. So if my thigs are rubbing the seapost, so that means ideally, I want the saddle nose to be no wider than the width of the seatpost


Mine do, I can't used a saddle bag that has a velcro strap around the post...it ruins my bibs. My inner thigh will rub the anodizing off a saddle clamp most of the time. Not w/ the Trek seat mast cap but w/ a normal clamp. I'm gonna try a Pro Stealth and see how that works for me.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> (First of all, a little correction from me. I meant to say I want a saddle with "short and narrow" nose, not "short and wide". I have corrected my post above to state this)
> 
> But ok, I haven't seen a couple riders with the Specialized Power. Nose is still too wide for me based on look. Though I have not ridden it, so maybe I will need to actually ride it to find out.
> 
> For now, I'm using on one of my bike the Selle Italia Monolink SLR. This saddle basically has a "monorail" underneath, unlike most traditional saddles that have the dual-rail, to connect to the seatpost. Monolink system imparts a small width when compared to the traditional dual-rail system. And as such, Selle Italia is able to make the nose narrower on their saddles with monolink. So this is the good part for me. Now I just wish they would make the nose a tad shorter, like 2 inches shorter would be nice!


I have time on the Power. I'm on the Pro now. Not many if any saddles are narrower in the nose than the Power...


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> Mine do, I can't used a saddle bag that has a velcro strap around the post...it ruins my bibs. My inner thigh will rub the anodizing off a saddle clamp most of the time. Not w/ the Trek seat mast cap but w/ a normal clamp. I'm gonna try a Pro Stealth and see how that works for me.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong but, are you looking for it to limit the rubbing? I've been using the Stealth (152) for some time now. Not sure how it would limit this but, I've got an extra one. 7x7 rails. If by some crazy chance you're going to be near MBGP this week end feel free to test it out for how ever long you need.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

cxwrench said:


> Please. There are many good reasons there are probably about 7 or 8 people riding that saddle. You'd have to have some very unique fit issues for that to be the only option. Ever wonder why millions and millions of cyclists ride on saddles that are all shaped remarkably the same?


I once rode a bike with one of these things on it. Of course, I hated it, mostly because it has no nose. The nose will guide you onto the exact spot you need to be when you sit down after an out-of-saddle pedaling experience. Also, the nose helps hold the bike steady on those fast downhills when you need to be a bit off the seat for rough roads, or for a shimmy. Also, the Moon saddle weighs a ton, compared even to Brooks saddles.

I can see a few cases where this saddle would be good:

1) For a lady who is "broad in the beam" on a hybrid.

2) For a rider with mobility/balance issues on an adult tricycle

3) For somebody who is morbidly obese.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

woodys737 said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong but, are you looking for it to limit the rubbing? I've been using the Stealth (152) for some time now. Not sure how it would limit this but, I've got an extra one. 7x7 rails. If by some crazy chance you're going to be near MBGP this week end feel free to test it out for how ever long you need.


Not to limit rubbing but I've tried a couple out for just a few minutes and they seem pretty comfy and worth a try. Manhattan Beach GP? Not going to be down there but have a great time and thanks for the offer!


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

woodys737 said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong but, are you looking for it to limit the rubbing? I've been using the Stealth (152) for some time now.


 Curious, how wide is the nose on the Stealth, say an inch or so back from the tip?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Srode said:


> Curious, how wide is the nose on the Stealth, say an inch or so back from the tip?


I'm in a hotel and had to download an online ruler so this is approximate...

1 inch back it looks like 1 3/4" and 2 inches back approximately 2 inches. It has a profile very similar to the Romin. I have both a carbon rail and a steel rail and the steel rail is more comfortable imo.


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