# The Dark Side or Does Anyone Ride High or Low Racer Recumbents?



## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

Monday I went to a recumbent shop in Austin and rode various types of bent bikes. A rather humbling experience. Like an old adult getting on a regular bike for the first time. I was "attacked" by the curb twice, and I'm sure a parked car was out to get me! All this in the parking lot at very slow speeds. Practiced slow tight turns and only fell down four times-two bruised elbows and a minor cut on the leg for my efforts:blush2: Turned slow, tight and into a uphill only to have the rear wheel wash out from under me. I understand after a couple hundred miles it starts to feel a lot more normal and less frighting. These critters can go really fast because the rider is so aero. But I would think it would take a significant period to develop the skills to drive the beast at the same level of effort as on a traditional road bike-some different muscles to develop as well. I haven't been able to sit on my bike for seven weeks and it may be some time before I can or at least for any distance. Was wondering is any of the rides here also ride performance bents and their experiences.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Wait, I can hear it...............
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## Cyclin Dan (Sep 24, 2011)

Just a thought, but I'd imagine it's much easier to handle with a little speed. Trying slow uphill turns in the parking lot isn't going to reflect what riding the thing is really like. 

That said, never touch said recumbent bicycle again. Go home immediately, get you're bicycle out of hiding and start riding it. Even if only for short periods at first. Don't become "one of those guys".


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

I own a more conventional SWB recumbent, but I've put some time in on a hiracer. There is a challenge to it, but it's about understanding how a bike (any bike) really works. You turn by leaning, and balance by steering the bars. The geometry of a 'bent highlight the facts, but they're the same for all bikes.

Loosen up that death grip, and speed is your friend. Get those things understood, and it gets better quickly. But they just aren't as maneuverable as an upright bike, because you can't effectively move your body independent of the bike. 

I got mine in response to a neck injury that would have otherwise kept me off the bike. As I healed, I got back on a regular bike. There's a lot to like about bents, especially in flatter areas, but I never quite seem to get air into the tires.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

Becuse I can't sit on a saddle I have started workouts of standing in the big ring for 20-30 minutes with a short break every 2-3 minutes. I have made one 10 minute period without recovering. All this on the trainer. It's hard Not interested in buying something I don't ride when I can get back to my road bikes. On the other hand there are the high performance trikes like the Catrike 700 Lot slower than traditional bike on hills but seem a lot of fun. Human powered go cart an none of the parking lot trama I experienced.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I have a bent collecting dust in the garage. Rode it for several years when I was a lot fatter and my neck was in worse shape.

Tips:
- Relax, lean back against the seat, relax the shoulders, relax the wrists.
- As you discovered... f/r weight distribution is different and body English doesn't really work as a control input. Effect: you just can't dive into turns like you could. Don't. It's not a crit bike.
- It's never going to be "hands-free" stable. The geometry is just not there to make the steering work like that.
- Yes, you can develop "bent legs" after a while
- No, you will never be as fast as your road bike. Maybe a tad faster on downhills, but that's it. The "aero advantage" is a myth in the real world. And on any kind of hill or acceleration, you give it all back, plus some. 

Still, though, it's a bike, and you're outside exercising and enjoying life. In my case, it allowed me to ride and help lose a bit of weight at a time when the regular bike was just too painful. 

I'll leave you with these 2 pix, taken about 5 seconds apart.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks Creeky this is useful information. The bent rides talk about how much faster they are other than climbs. And I have enough dings in my old body I don't need to add to them. Now if I can get the idea of a Catrike 700 out of my system-not good for group rides but the little I rode one it was a blast! They are selling about as quick as they hit a shop.


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## mtnroadie (Jul 6, 2010)

I ride a Catrike Road every once in a while, its a blast. I was going to ride it today actually, but its raining, I find it a great way to recover from long hard rides on its two wheeled companions. I find that I use different muscles when riding the trike.

Its not nearly as fast as my two wheel bikes, but it is so fun its like a guilty pleasure. I love the fighter pilot position and the fact that I can ride forever on that thing, basically like sitting in a arm chair. I have flipped it once and that was pretty scary, I was putting it through its paces and over it went. You really have to get a feel for it and its limits, also learn to lean into the turns.

The Catrike 700 looks awesome and that Icetrike Vortex holy crap that thing is sweet. From what I hear those bigger wheels in the back do make it a bit harder on the hills, but are of great benefit everywhere else. I was seriously lusting after the fast trikes (700 and Vortex for a while) but ended up getting over it (kinda hard those things are so damn cool) I have no real need for a trike at this point in my life. However once I get a lot older I will be getting one without a doubt. I can only imagine what trikes will be like in 20 -30 years.

I say if a Catrike 700 is what you are looking for, go for it! Moreover if you have the means check out the Ice Vortex the steel frame will make for a much nicer ride, I find the aluminum Catrike frame a bit harsh.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

I have a couple of Vision 'bents... one of them is a VR50 (no longer in production) that I configured for time trials.



















I've also battled with a few chronic physical conditions which warrent the use of a recumbent. Fortunately, over the past two seasons, these conditions have subsided and my 'bents have been untouched... which is both good and bad.

First off, for the most part, they are still bicycles and most folks will easily adapt as far as balance and control.

Second off, as mentioned, while they use the same muscle groups, they do so in just enuff of a different manner as to require "recumbent legs" to become proficient (while I have great fitness for uprights at the moment, I've lost my recumbent legs just a tad).

Third off, they can fly given a good motor over most terrain (flat to rolling) and while they are at a disadvantage on hills, almost all types can climb (a good motor).

Indeed, because of my conditions, and the high probability that eventually, they will overtake me again, if I could only keep one of my twenty bikes... it'd be a recumbent.

Lastly, the word _recumbent]/i] is generic. As you've mentioned, there are several different types that have their own strengths and weaknesses (would you use a TT bike for a BMX race). While it can be a hard sell to the "able bodied" or "young", there is prolly a recumbent out there for EVERYONE._


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

Akirasho 
I rode a long wheelbase low peddle EZ, a Phantom SWB but upright seating, a Bacchetta Corsa 24 (short legs) high racer and a Catrike Musashi low racer. I liked the Corsa high racer the best. I have two high quality road bikes and a good fixed gear road bike. If I were to buy a "bent" I would probably sell one road bike. By the time I developed the skills to really ride a recumbent I would have hopefully healed to the point I can ride a road bike again. On the other hand I could tell from my parking lot adventures that the recumbent would be a lot easier and more comfortable for really long rides as I roll off into Old Age not that my road bikes were hurting me-no more than anyone else after 60 miles of rollers at a spirited pace for non racers. But I don't need to buy another bike to clutter up the man cave unless it gets a reasonable amount of use.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

One thing to think about on the 'easy on the old body' front: There's no way to unweight over the potholes, railroad tracks, bridge plates, and so on. Those jolts go straight from tailbone to dental work.

Most seats are cushy enough to dampen the worst of it, but higher performance bikes (both because of lesser padding and increased layback angle) make it a bit more of an issue. 

Some USS (under-seat-steer) bikes change this fact a bit, but they're relatively rare nowadays, and are aerodynamically challenged relative to ASS bikes. 

But the great view and the 'cockpit' riding sensability make for a pleasant experience, so some bad with the good.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

danl1 said:


> One thing to think about on the 'easy on the old body' front: There's no way to unweight over the potholes, railroad tracks, bridge plates, and so on. Those jolts go straight from tailbone to dental work.
> 
> Most seats are cushy enough to dampen the worst of it, but higher performance bikes (both because of lesser padding and increased layback angle) make it a bit more of an issue.
> 
> ...


thanks. good point


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

I rode a bent around a parking lot about 30 years ago. Loved it. Sadly my wife says I'll never get laid again if I bring one home, so I've got to wait another 30 years or so before I get to ride one again. Alas.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

I don't think I could ever ride a recumbent - my wife doesn't like me with a beard.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2012)

creakyknees said:


> - No, you will never be as fast as your road bike. Maybe a tad faster on downhills, but that's it. The "aero advantage" is a myth in the real world. And on any kind of hill or acceleration, you give it all back, plus some.


The last time I saw a guy in a recumbent while out riding my roadbike I couldn't keep up with him up. Granted this was a false-flat downhill into a >15mph direct headwind situation. I was hammering hard in the drops to maintain on my road bike trying to catch up to the dude in one of those streamlined recumbent tricycles. He was starting from a dead stop about a half-block ahead of me. I managed to catch up but realized he hadn't stopped accelerating and evenutally built up to a higher top speed than I could manage given the wind. 

That said, had we been going the other direction, there's a good chance the outcome could have been completely different. 

I've wanted to try a recumbent out at some point but I've been mostly interested from the perspective of being able to ride a bike with extra-legal (UCI-wise) aerodynamic properties in order to be able to go fast. Sounds like that's really only plausible on salt-flats or weird scenarios like mine above. It sounds like recumbents don't really offer significant imporvement _on average_ in speed compared to a road bike ridden by a rider with good aerodynamic posture. 

I wonder if well designed fairings for an upright bike could enable a road bike to perform almost as a recumbent on the flats, without as many of the handling drawbacks (ie cornering, climbing, hitting potholes)?


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

PhotonFreak said:


> The last time I saw a guy in a recumbent while out riding my roadbike I couldn't keep up with him up. Granted this was a false-flat downhill into a >15mph direct headwind situation. I was hammering hard in the drops to maintain on my road bike trying to catch up to the dude in one of those streamlined recumbent tricycles. He was starting from a dead stop about a half-block ahead of me. I managed to catch up but realized he hadn't stopped accelerating and evenutally built up to a higher top speed than I could manage given the wind.
> 
> That said, had we been going the other direction, there's a good chance the outcome could have been completely different.
> 
> ...


It's essentially the fairing (or the motor) that did you in. Aerodynamically, a 'normal' 'bent isn't too much different than a standard rider with a good drop position; an extreme 'low racer' is about on par with a really good TT rig. 

But the bent rider is more comfortable doing it and can put out a bit more power, longer, and they've got a much easier time fairing the things - which makes a huge difference. 

Sam Whittingham hit an honest (trapped both directions) 85+ miles per hour. Pull the CF shell off of that bike, and 40-something would likely be a very happy number.

Uprights just can't be faired effectively, and behave horribly the moment there's a breath of crosswind.


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## M3LTW (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm just curious... Do they clip your nuts off before or after you purchase one of these?


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## gforcepdx (Jul 23, 2012)

danl1 said:


> It's essentially the fairing (or the motor) that did you in. Aerodynamically, a 'normal' 'bent isn't too much different than a standard rider with a good drop position; an extreme 'low racer' is about on par with a really good TT rig.
> 
> But the bent rider is more comfortable doing it and can put out a bit more power, longer, and they've got a much easier time fairing the things - which makes a huge difference.
> 
> ...


How do you think a catrike 700 would fare against a TT? Very low and lite, but it has that third wheel.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

M3LTW said:


> I'm just curious... Do they clip your nuts off before or after you purchase one of these?


I admit some strange dudes and dudettes at the shop. BTW I think the long grey beard is an accessory for only $25 plus tax.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

M3LTW said:


> I'm just curious... Do they clip your nuts off before or after you purchase one of these?


Obviously "after" "cause you got to have the balls to get on the critter to begin with!


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

gforcepdx said:


> How do you think a catrike 700 would fare against a TT? Very low and lite, but it has that third wheel.


the best I can determine not very well except downhill even though the 700 is one of the fastest trikes made. It weighs 33 lbs and looses speed quickly beginning with a hill. You can climb probably any steep grade due to gearing a no need to balance but it may be slowly depending on climb and rider. A trike will fly down the downside but that's a lot less time then the climb. The best I can piece together is that a trike is 2-4 mph slower than a tradition road bike and a racer designed recumbent bike is 2-3 mph faster than a road bike other than real climbs. On flats, rollers and grades the bent is faster especially with a headwind. Now this subject to great debate-see Mr Grupm's comment above. I have no personal knowledge about this-just my reading the web. But the trike riders say the trike is slower but a lot of fun. I have not found discussion on your specific question of how well would a Catrike 700 or ICE Vortex do against a traditional road bike or even a TT bike on flats, grades and rollers-forget any hills in terms of keeping up. You would have to try to catch up on the downhill. Any I don't think a trike would be welcomed in a group of road bikes for lots of reasons. Just sit on the back. The trikes look safe and not require learning a new skill. In reality if you push the limits with out required skill they flip. Now putting a faring on a 700


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## dualpivot (Oct 25, 2009)

danl1 said:


> It's essentially the fairing (or the motor) that did you in. Aerodynamically, a 'normal' 'bent isn't too much different than a standard rider with a good drop position; an extreme 'low racer' is about on par with a really good TT rig.
> 
> But the bent rider is more comfortable doing it and can put out a bit more power, longer, and they've got a much easier time fairing the things - which makes a huge difference.


A highracer with the seat around 20-22 degrees or a lowracer set up similarly is very aerodynamic. Yes a good TT bike and rider can match one aero-wise, _provided_ they've got the flexibility, athleticism, and proper fit...There are many designs on the market now that give up little or nothing to a road bike on hill climbing (thinking of the Carbent, carbon Bacchetta, Lightning P-38, some others) and are in the sub-20 lb range. 

When thinking of 'bents and their performance vs. a road bike, consider the demographics. The fastest cyclists are the racers on road bikes doing Cat 5/4/3/2/1 racing, time trialing, track riding, etc. since that's where the racing scene is! Meanwhile a lot of riders end up on recumbents due to age, injury, balance issues (e.g. trikes are good here), etc. So 'bent riders are not only outnumbered 150-1 on the road, the proportion of really fast riders in that small population is much smaller than the road bike-riding population, making it unlikely to encounter a fast 'bent rider on the road.

I am currently "in between" recumbents. I owned one until about a year ago - some injuries and health issues made riding a road bike an agonizing affair, while the 'bent was just plain fun and pain-free. Now I'm having a lot of fun riding my Lemond with improved health, but a fast lightweight 'bent will be back in the stable in a year or so, for the fun factor alone.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

OldZaskar said:


> I don't think I could ever ride a recumbent - my wife doesn't like me with a beard.


and/or ponytail.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

My experience was similar to yours when I test rode a recumbent. I couldn't get over the feeling of instability and lack of control. I had considered buying one due to recurring neck issues and numbness in my hands, but I solved those problems by raising my handlebars higher.

I've encountered quite a few cyclists on recumbents while riding tours in the Midwest, where it's flatter than here in NC. They seem to keep up with other bikes fine on flat roads but really drop off when you hit the hills. If I lived where it was flatter, I might reconsider getting a recumbent but I need all the help I can get on the hills.


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

tarwheel2 said:


> I couldn't get over the feeling of instability and lack of control.


... while I don't know the specific type of recumbent (they can have varied geometries just like the diff 'tween a BMX a hybrid and a road race machine), this is prolly due to a short stint on the machine... in short order it would be just like riding a bike!


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Akirasho said:


> ... while I don't know the specific type of recumbent (they can have varied geometries just like the diff 'tween a BMX a hybrid and a road race machine), this is prolly due to a short stint on the machine... in short order it would be just like riding a bike!


You speak true. The biggest difference is that a bent really reinforces the fact that we steer by leaning, and balance by adjusting the handlebars. Of course there's an interaction, but on the main, this a truth that many just don't realize. The lower center of gravity, relatively static position on the bike, and 'tiller effect' in many 'bent steerying systems all multiply the sensation.

Once you ease the death grip and loosen the shoulders and neck to move with the flow of intended direction, maneuverability and balance go way up. They still end up with a big low-speed turning radius, though.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I don't know if it's such a "myth" that 'bents are faster on flat ground. The last distance event I did (a 6 hour race), a team of recumbents toyed with a pack of cat 2 and 3 racers on road and TT bikes and finally dropped them with evident ease. Partly it's a matter of tactics (they had them, we did not), but partly it's aerodynamics. The legs and body of the rider are much closer to the line of movement as well as lower to the ground. No way that's not an advantage.

http://bacchettabikes.com/bikes/performance/


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

Fireform said:


> I don't know if it's such a "myth" that 'bents are faster on flat ground. The last distance event I did (a 6 hour race), a team of recumbents toyed with a pack of cat 2 and 3 racers on road and TT bikes and finally dropped them with evident ease. Partly it's a matter of tactics (they had them, we did not), but partly it's aerodynamics. The legs and body of the rider are much closer to the line of movement as well as lower to the ground. No way that's not an advantage.
> 
> Bacchetta Recumbent Bikes



... there is prolly a couple of doctorate thesis in these responses but I should also point out that many of the HPV land speed records over flat terrain belong to a "recumbent"... and this is not to take away from the motor (there is a stigma attached that suggests you have to have an obligatory beard, beer gut and pale skin regardless of gender in order to ride one (I've got a gender but my beard is short and I'm not pale)). Top HPV racers are fit.

For most recumbent designs, the position of the rider's body relative to the drivetrain is fairly close to any other type of machine... merely rotated into a recumbent position. It could be argued that this also gives a cardiovascular advantage.

While it's a broad thing to say, I cannot recall a time when I've been on a 'bent with a group of "motivated" roadies over flat to rolling terrain that I was dropped... off the back a bit but not dropped (on one tour ride, I fell off the back climbing a gnarly 1.5 mile 10% but bridged back within 3 miles on a set of rollers at the top).

Indeed, I've recently had to dust of my 'bent. A bum shoulder has made holding the bars difficult so I'll still get in some miles when i finish tweaking!!!

Still, there is no one way to do virtually anything and I think recumbents still get an unwarranted bad rap/rep. Sad in a way... OTOH, I now know the secret handshake.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Akirasho said:


> ... there is prolly a couple of doctorate thesis in these responses but I should also point out that many of the HPV land speed records over flat terrain belong to a "recumbent"... and this is not to take away from the motor (there is a stigma attached that suggests you have to have an obligatory beard, beer gut and pale skin regardless of gender in order to ride one (I've got a gender but my beard is short and I'm not pale)). Top HPV racers are fit.
> 
> For most recumbent designs, the position of the rider's body relative to the drivetrain is fairly close to any other type of machine... merely rotated into a recumbent position. It could be argued that this also gives a cardiovascular advantage.
> 
> ...


True and agreed. But the HPV stuff really is mostly about it being easier to fair a recumbent. The differences in unfaired aerodynamics are pretty small, but do somewhat advantage the 'bent. And while there is an argument for a cardiovascular benefit, there's also one for a shortcoming due to needing to lift leg weight in a less advantageous manner. 

But yeah, They are on two wheels out there pedaling - they're one of us, as far as I'm concerned. Those trike losers, on the other hand.... 

Edit: I know a group of 'bent riders that did a local, famously flat century averaging 24.5 rolling speed - 21.something accounting for stops. Nothing to sneeze at there. 
(all riding Bachettas and drafting one another, FWIW.)


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

*Update*

Well in as much as I started ths "Dark Side" discussion I will post an update. I was seven weeks off the bike due to a saddle sore. I was thinking I would never get back on a bike again as I wasn't healing very fast. Thus the interest in "bents". I was about to buy a Bacchette Corsa 24 (24" wheels for the short of leg) when I found a deal on a Lightning Phantom small frame. This is a poor mans Lightning P-38. The Corsa is a better bike for speed but I got the Phantom new with assessories for half price. Of course the day i bought the bent my saddle sore healed and I'm back riding my road bikes. But I'm learning to ride the Phantom. It is a challenge but coming along. Twice I did the Tour de Target Parking Lot to get the feel of it. Then an isolated feeder road through rollers. I would ride reasonably straight and then for no reason dart two feet left or right! Last night I removed the flat padels and put on the SpeedPlay. After a false start or two I got the hang of it and my steering is getting a lot better. I'm no longer attacked, without any provocation I might add, by parked cars and curbs. No more "darting about". So this may be a fun thing to play with. The Phantom isn't a fast recumbent. But it will go much faster than I have the skill to control at this point. The best I can determine a fast aero untricked out bent is as fast as a well designed TT bike. Maybe a bit faster given equal engines. But a lot of rides can't get in or hold for very long an efficient TT position. I know my back might but my neck will not. So with an aero bent, training and skill I could go a lot faster than on my road bike. Not that I'm interested in increased speed of course.


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## oily666 (Apr 7, 2007)

I ride frequently with a couple fairly strong bent riders. If I'm using aero the clip-ons I use for UMCA events, our rates of descent are almost dead even and their both about 12% heavier than me. Beyond that individual power has to be factored in. Overall we're pretty even because I can stomp them on hills, but if there aren't any hills, I have to work very hard. 

Oh, and they don't all have beards a beer guts.
Team Bacchetta RAAM Crashes the 500 Mile Party! : UltraRaceNews


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## Akirasho (Jan 27, 2004)

... update too...

Over the past month, I've been dealing with a lot of shoulder pain and loss of grip strength in my left arm, so this weekend, I took off on the 'bent with a few buds. I didn't do too badly though it was apparent to me that in order to reap the most efficiency on a 'bent... you need to ride a 'bent. I was fast and kept up with the group, but it took more work!


















Still, I'm glad I had the option... I could not have ridden at all on an upright!!


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

The main recumbent site is www.bentridersonline.com. I was looking at the forum for "Polls" and saw that most all the bent riders are ages 50-69. Not surprising as riders develop issues due to age and injuries recumbent bikes and ultimately high performance trikes extends riding life. While bents aren't going to compete with traditional bikes I think they will be less rare over time as older riders may be able to ride some form of bent but not a traditional bike especially for longer distances.


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