# You're the T-Mobile DS...



## Coot72 (Nov 11, 2002)

So what do you do with all the guys up top?
Gonchar can't climb with the best. Neither probably can Rogers. Given T-Mob is a German team, looks like Kloden will be their GC guy. But who knows??

Landis is looking strong.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Since...*



Coot72 said:


> So what do you do with all the guys up top?
> Gonchar can't climb with the best. Neither probably can Rogers. Given T-Mob is a German team, looks like Kloden will be their GC guy. But who knows??
> 
> Landis is looking strong.


Since the best aren't here, I think Gonchar can climb with what's left of the rest. Remember, Landis got dropped during the Tour last year, and has yet to really prove that he can hang with the best either. Gonchar has hung with some of the best Italian climbers in the Giro, and where the climbs are steeper and nastier than they are in le Tour. I honestly think Gonchar has a chance.

Rogers wants to be a GC threat, but he hasn't been yet.

Kloden is flakey, he may or may not perform well, and his TT is not up to snuff. Gonchar could pull an "Indurain" where he dominates the time trials, and can sort of hang in the mountains and limit losses, and take more time back in a later time trial. If his form hangs in there, this he could do. 

And again, sometimes when guys are wearing the yellow jersey, they seem to kick it up a notch or 2 or 3 and ride beyond what they might be normally capable of, so it is possible that they defend with Gonchar.


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## bas (Jul 30, 2004)

Coot72 said:


> So what do you do with all the guys up top?
> Gonchar can't climb with the best. Neither probably can Rogers.  Given T-Mob is a German team, looks like Kloden will be their GC guy. But who knows??
> 
> Landis is looking strong.



I think Gonchar is coming out of the shadows like Oscar Sevilla was. [hint: he's got a hookup].. has he been training in Spain too?


I do think he was smart to ride the TT in a big gear - it looked pretty flat.. Everyone else was trying to spin their way through.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

magnolialover said:


> Since the best aren't here, I think Gonchar can climb with what's left of the rest. Remember, Landis got dropped during the Tour last year, and has yet to really prove that he can hang with the best either. Gonchar has hung with some of the best Italian climbers in the Giro, and where the climbs are steeper and nastier than they are in le Tour. I honestly think Gonchar has a chance.
> 
> Rogers wants to be a GC threat, but he hasn't been yet.
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that all of the people who put time into Landis in the mountians last year are either retired, busted, crashed out, not doing so hot this year/not looking like a big threat as far as GC goes. There aren't any guys who are in the top 15 on GC at this point who actually dropped Landis or caused him GC ramifications in the mountains last year accept for Moreau. Even so Landis finished ahead Moreau overall. Most importantly Landis has stepped up his game.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

rocco said:


> Keep in mind that all of the people who put time into Landis in the mountians last year are either retired, busted, crashed out, not doing so hot this year/not looking like a big threat as far as GC goes.


You should also keep in mind that about 40 guys dropped Landis on the Ventoux stage of the Dauphine yet he rode a good TT there. Gotta wait to stage 11 or maybe even the Alps to see if he is climbing well enough to win the Tour.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Coot72 said:


> So what do you do with all the guys up top?


I wait and see how everyone is climbing before I decide anything.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

rocco said:


> Keep in mind that all of the people who put time into Landis in the mountians last year are either retired, busted, crashed out, not doing so hot this year/not looking like a big threat as far as GC goes. There aren't any guys who are in the top 15 on GC at this point who actually dropped Landis or caused him GC ramifications in the mountains last year accept for Moreau. Even so Landis finished ahead Moreau overall. Most importantly Landis has stepped up his game.


Cadel & Klodi are the likely only threats to Floyd at this point...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> You should also keep in mind that about 40 guys dropped Landis on the Ventoux stage of the Dauphine yet he rode a good TT there. Gotta wait to stage 11 or maybe even the Alps to see if he is climbing well enough to win the Tour.



That's a fair point though Dauphine Libere wasn't his highest objective, the Tour is. ... we'll see.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I wait and see how everyone is climbing before I decide anything.


Yeah, I agree - we should get some good insight on *Stage 10 - July 12: Cambo-les-Bains - Pau, 193 km.* It has one HC climb about 1/2 through. If some riders are having a tough time recovering, due to the apparent drug crackdown or because they just don't have the necessary fitness, then they will absolutely implode on Stage 11.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Everyone knows that Armstrong's strategy every year was to open up a gap in the first tt and then put his team on the front during the first mountain stage to set him up for the big attack on the final climb. One of the riders could prove me wrong, but I don't think there's anyone strong enough to blow the field apart like that this year in the mountains, and even if there is none of them appear to have the 100% team dedication that Armstrong had, where everyone worked for him no questions asked. If Landis and his team have worked this out so that he has the Armstrong+Postal/Discovery setup where he's numero uno, I still can't see his team being as strong as Armstrong's always was and just driving the pace at the front on the climbs.

Gonchar has always been pretty consistent so I can't really see him cracking unless he tries to follow accelerations from the other favorites on the climbs. He probably isn't on the same climbing level as Landis but he has one of the best climbers in the world for support in Guerini as well as Mazzoleni and Kloden, the question is whether or not he has the climbing form to be able to put them to good use.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

rocco said:


> Keep in mind that all of the people who put time into Landis in the mountians last year are either retired, busted, crashed out, not doing so hot this year/not looking like a big threat as far as GC goes. There aren't any guys who are in the top 15 on GC at this point who actually dropped Landis or caused him GC ramifications in the mountains last year accept for Moreau. Even so Landis finished ahead Moreau overall. Most importantly Landis has stepped up his game.


Except Landis may need to do some chasing himself to get time from Gonchar.

Also - last year on stage 15 (famous one won by Hincapie) the following riders put time into Landis: (not counting breakaway and riders absent from Tour): Rasmussen, Moreau, Zubeldia, Evans, Mazzoleni, Popovych.

On earlier stage 10 (won by Valverde), Rasmussen (2+min) and Leipheimer (1 min) were ahead of Landis.

So while I agree that Landis is very much the favorite, I wouldn't neccessarily present him as totally unbeatable in the mountains. He is a solid climber, but it seems every Tour he has one bad day in the mountains. Dauphine shows this once again.

Besides, after a day like today, I refuse to trust any kind of conventional wisdom about this year's Tour.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

chuckice said:


> Cadel & Klodi are the likely only threats to Floyd at this point...


Gonchar is still a threat.
So is Menchov, Karpets, Rogers, Moreau, Savoldelli, Mazzoleni and maybe even Sastre. These guys are still within the striking distance and have the climbing talent to beat Landis in one or several mountain stages.Don't forget - this is a strange tour.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> You should also keep in mind that about 40 guys dropped Landis on the Ventoux stage of the Dauphine yet he rode a good TT there. Gotta wait to stage 11 or maybe even the Alps to see if he is climbing well enough to win the Tour.


Yep, but aren't those guys possibly paying for that form last month buy looking rather weak today? Maybe Floyd made a smart decision then? This is all speculation until the first mountain stage but it gives us something to do.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

chuckice said:


> Cadel & Klodi are the likely only threats to Floyd at this point...


Yeah my money is on Cadel, Klodi and Floyd for the podium. But Salvodelli could be a real threat too...


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

il sogno said:


> Yeah my money is on Cadel, Klodi and Floyd for the podium. But Salvodelli could be a real threat too...


Paolo & George will still cause a lot of problems. I don't see either hanging with Cadel/Klod/Floyd when it gets too steep tho. I have a feeling that any contender might have to expend a lot of energy doing time management and chasing down alternating attacks from George & Paolo.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Gonchar is still a threat.
> So is Menchov, Karpets, Rogers, Moreau, Savoldelli, Mazzoleni and maybe even Sastre. These guys are still within the striking distance and have the climbing talent to beat Landis in one or several mountain stages.Don't forget - this is a strange tour.


Floyd is riding so strong this year...he should be able to ride down threats from them...he's added about 30% more watts in short climbing sprint power since last season. If true that's going to make it tough for those guys to ride him off their wheel. Definitely a strange race this year...it's going to get damn fun in a few days!


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

It seems like you didn't read what I wrote exactly. 



> Keep in mind that all of the people who put time into Landis in the mountians last year are either retired, busted, crashed out, not doing so hot this year/not looking like a big threat as far as GC goes. There aren't any guys who are in the top 15 on GC at this point who actually dropped Landis or caused him GC ramifications in the mountains last year accept for Moreau. Even so Landis finished ahead Moreau overall. Most importantly Landis has stepped up his game.





55x11 said:


> Also - last year on stage 15 (famous one won by Hincapie) the following riders put time into Landis: (not counting breakaway and riders absent from Tour): Rasmussen, Moreau, Zubeldia, Evans, Mazzoleni, Popovych.


Analysis and comparisons to Landis:

Rasmussen: -3:02 stage 15 - 2005 / -0:51 GC - 2005 / currently + 6:20 

Analysis: Rasmussen was + 5:15 when the mountians started in 2005. He's a real threat to Landis but I think Landis has improved more and he's the confirmed leader for Phonak this year. 

Conclusion: advantage to Landis



Moreau: -1:20 stage 15 - 2005 / +4:42 GC - 2005 / currently + 1:07

Analysis: Moreau is where he's consistently been for years. He's a threat but Landis has more too much.

Conclusion: advantage to Landis by 4:00



Zubeldia: -0:47 stage 15 - 2005 / +10:59 GC - 2005 / currently + 2:47

Analysis: Very Managable; not a real threat to Landis.

Conclusion: advantage to Landis by 15:00



Evans: -0:47 stage 15 - 2005 / -0:49 GC - 2005 / currently + 0:52 

Analysis: Evans has been getting more and more solid. They are very close in comparison and he's a top threat but Landis has the adavantage in the race of truth.

Conclusion: advantage to Landis by 2:30



Mazzoleni: -0:40 stage 15 - 2005 / -0:49 GC - 2005 / currently + 2:14 / he'll be a worker

Analysis: The situation dictates that Mazzoleni will be a T-Mob worker.

Conclusion: advantage to Landis by 10:00



Popovych: -0:02 stage 15 - 2005 / +10:57 GC - 2005 / currently + 2:27 

Analysis: He dropped Landis by a whopping 0:02 on stage 15 - 2005. He's simply not a big threat, period. He'll be working for Savoldelli

Conclusion: advantage to Landis by 8:00





55x11 said:


> On earlier stage 10 (won by Valverde), Rasmussen (2+min) and Leipheimer (1 min) were ahead of Landis.



Analysis and comparisons to Landis:

Valverde: -2:14 stage 10 - 2005 / DNF GC - 2005 / currently DNF

Analysis: What's the point of discussing this know?

Conclusion: I just don't know if Landis can beat him this year...



Rasmussen: -2:05 stage 10 - 2005 / -0:51 GC - 2005 / currently + 6:20

Analysis: see above

Conclusion: see above



Leipheimer: -:59 stage 10 - 2005 / -1:23 GC - 2005 / currently + 5:17

Analysis: Something is very wrong here... Either he's sick - perhaps cancer, his dope ran out and needs a mainline fix or his dog died. ...ok maybe his mom died. 

Conclusion: advantage to Landis by the sky's the limit.


P.S. You really do like a lot Gontchar don't you? I don't think anyone has said Landis is unbeatable in the mountains. ...and yes anyone can have a bad day, including Jacques Anquetil, Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault, Miguel Induráin and Lance Armstrong. Ask Laurent Fignon about July 23, 1989.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

55x11 said:


> Gonchar is still a threat.
> So is Menchov, Karpets, Rogers, Moreau, Savoldelli, Mazzoleni and maybe even Sastre. These guys are still within the striking distance and have the climbing talent to beat Landis in one or several mountain stages.Don't forget - this is a strange tour.



A guys who has a user name such as 55x11 is bound to like a guy who actually uses a 55x11.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

il sogno said:


> Yeah my money is on Cadel, Klodi and Floyd for the podium. But Salvodelli could be a real threat too...



I like how you're becoming more concise with your predictions.  ...and yes I agree with you.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

bas said:


> I think Gonchar is coming out of the shadows like Oscar Sevilla was.


I sense another Raimondas Rumsas coming on.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

rocco said:


> It seems like you didn't read what I wrote exactly.
> 
> P.S. You really do like a lot Gontchar don't you? I don't think anyone has said Landis is unbeatable in the mountains. ...and yes anyone can have a bad day, including Jacques Anquetil, Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault, Miguel Induráin and Lance Armstrong. Ask Laurent Fignon about July 23, 1989.


Yeah, I should have read more carefully. I assume you mean top 15 GC in *last* Tour.
Either way, betting against Landis is crazy right now - he is hands-on favorite at the moment. I wonder what his odds are now for the win with the bookmakers?

My only point is that Landis is not a super-climber like Armstrong or Mayo or Basso, and that it's possible that one of the guys that are currently ~1min-2min behind him in GC can attack and put some distance - even without Dauphine-like meltdown. Like Menchov, for example. Also, Landis is not exactly Mr. Consistency either, so I guess I am saying anything is possible, especially in a crazy Tour like now.

I do like Gontchar/Honchar. Any 36-year old who is jumping up and down like a 5-year old opening up Xmas presents deserves my respect. I think it's a great story - to get a "second chance" from premier team like T-mobile after riding for Nardi and to deliver the goods.

People who categorically say Gontchar is not a serious GC contender underestimate him, or simply don't watch him in Giro over the past ~5 years or so. Sure - most likely he will end up battling for 3rd or 4th in the final ITT, but he won't exactly "drop" in the mountains. And did I mention it was a "weird" tour?!

It should be an interesting week!!!!


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

rocco said:


> I sense another Raimondas Rumsas coming on.


No, Sevilla was quite the opposite - a young super-talent, white jersey at TdF, many picked him as new future contender - and he has done very little since then. Babyface was quite a disappointment long before the doping story developed.

Honchar is a seasoned time trial specialist and has been doing great time trials for many, many years. He has put himself in pink in Giro several times due to his ITT ability (including this year - twice!), has been a world time trial champion and finished 2nd in Giro 2 years ago.

Comparison to Rumsas reveals you haven't heard his name before. You should have known it by now, assuming one follow Giro too, rather than focusing on Le Tour only.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

55x11 said:


> No, Sevilla was quite the opposite - a young super-talent, white jersey at TdF, many picked him as new future contender - and he has done very little since then. Babyface was quite a disappointment long before the doping story developed.


I'm well aware of El Niño's CV and I wasn't drawing that direct comparison but we have no idea how long he has been doping for.




55x11 said:


> Honchar is a seasoned time trial specialist and has been doing great time trials for many, many years. He has put himself in pink in Giro several times due to his ITT ability (*including this year - twice!*), has been a world time trial champion and finished 2nd in Giro 2 years ago. Comparison to Rumsas reveals you haven't heard his name before. You should have known it by now, assuming one follow Giro too, rather than focusing on Le Tour only.


Yeah he's a seasoned time trialist from the eastern block sports system just like Jan Ullrich and Raimondas Rumsas. I didn't start following cycling last week (more like 25 years ago) and I'm well aware of Sergei Gontchar's CV. I've watched him win those ITTs in the Giro by torquing bigger gears than anybody else. *He didn't win any ITTs (4th and 5th) in this year's Giro and was in pink after the TTT*. He was 5th and 6th in Giro ITTs and finished 6th on the GC in 2005. He won one ITT in 2004 and finished 2nd on GC. In 2003 he was 1st and 3rd in the ITTs and 8th on GC. In 2002 he was 2nd twice in the ITTs and 23rd on GC. In 2001 he was 4th one ITT and 4th on GC. In 2000 he was 3rd and 4th in the ITTs and 9th on GC. He also won the WC ITT. In 1999 he was 2nd and 3rd in the ITTs and 7th on GC. In 1998 he was 2nd twince and 1st in the ITTs and 10th on GC. In 1997 he was 13th and 1st in the ITTs and 5th on GC. I actually know how to spell his last name even. Why don't you? http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/details/articles/10281.0.html

This guy is more durable than Joaquim Agostinho. The oldest winners of the Giro are Fiorenzo Magni and Toni Rominger who were 34. The oldest winners of the Tour de France was Firmin Lambot (1922) who was 36. In the modern era the oldest winners of the Tour de France were Joop Zoetemelk and Lance Armstrong who were both 33. Gontchar is 36, he's been declining at the Giro over the last two years as one would have expected for his age and now all of a sudden he's just won his first ITT/any kind of stage in the Tour de France. ...Yeah that's not fishy at all.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

rocco said:


> I'm well aware of El Niño's CV and I wasn't drawing that direct comparison but we have no idea how long he has been doping for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I decided you are indeed quite annoying after all.

Save your paranoia and your "guilt by geographical region" xenophobic drivel for doping forum.

Your previous posts about Honchar (I will use ukrainian spelling of his name) clearly reveal that you had no freaking idea about his past palmaries. Despite your chest-beating about your 25 years of expertise and your amazing ability to predict that "the best doper will win"...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I decided you are indeed quite annoying after all.
> 
> Save your paranoia and your "guilt by geographical region" xenophobic drivel for doping forum.
> 
> Your previous posts about Honchar (I will use ukrainian spelling of his name) clearly reveal that you had no freaking idea about his past palmaries. Despite your chest-beating about your 25 years of expertise and your amazing ability to predict that "the best doper will win"...



According to Gontchar his name is spelled Gontchar . 



> He has put himself in pink in Giro several times due to his ITT ability (including this year - twice!)


 Contrary to this assertion that he won two ITTs at this years Giro he in fact he didn't win any. The notion that I had "no freaking idea" about his past palmaries is your false assumption.

Again:


> The oldest winners of the Giro are Fiorenzo Magni and Toni Rominger who were 34. The oldest winners of the Tour de France was Firmin Lambot (1922) who was 36. In the modern era the oldest winners of the Tour de France were Joop Zoetemelk and Lance Armstrong who were both 33. Gontchar is 36, he's been declining at the Giro over the last two years as one would have expected for his age and now all of a sudden he's just won his first ITT/any kind of stage in the Tour de France.


The fact that he just won his 1st TDF ITT at age 36 is very suspect and if you knew your cycling history you might get it.

The fact that he came out of the eastern block system like a few other noteworthy dopers has nothing to do with xenophobia. In fact I have very good friends who grew up in the eastern block.

My predictions before and after the pre-Tour dope melt-down that "the best doper will win" were made in jest. I find people with no sense of humour such as yourself quite annoying so I guess the feeling is mutual.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

55x11 said:


> I decided you are indeed quite annoying after all.
> 
> Save your paranoia and your "guilt by geographical region" xenophobic drivel for doping forum.
> 
> Your previous posts about Honchar (I will use ukrainian spelling of his name) clearly reveal that you had no freaking idea about his past palmaries. Despite your chest-beating about your 25 years of expertise and your amazing ability to predict that "the best doper will win"...


...and wasn't Gontchar caught up in that San Remo raid by the authorities during the Giro 2 years ago?


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## cyclodawg (Jul 1, 2003)

rocco said:


> The fact that he just won his 1st TDF ITT at age 36 is very suspect and if you knew your cycling history you might get it.



It is more than a little odd. Nothing in Honchar's past results suggests that he could do what he did on Saturday. He didn't just win his first TdF ITT, he obliterated the best TTers in the world by 1+ minutes. It was a long TT, but he was taking about that much out of everyone from the second time check. Then you look at his age and his team. A top 10 full of T-Mobile riders, after their leader was just taken out for allegedly using nearly every doping product known to cycling. Very, very, very suspicious. 

There is absolutely no way that Honchar should be putting a minute into Landis and appr 2 minutes into Evans, Zabriskie, Rogers, Hincapie, guys who have been winning or placing high in ITT's all year. I could see him possibly squeeking out a win by a few seconds, on a day where he rides exceptionally well and everyone else struggles. But not minutes. Nothing, absolutely nothing, he's done before suggests that this could or should have happened, and the number of his teammates in the top 10 is equally suspicious. T-Mobile occasionally wins a TTT, but they should not be blowing Discovery and CSC out of the water without Ullrich.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

cyclodawg said:


> Nothing in Honchar's past results suggests that he could do what he did on Saturday. He didn't just win his first TdF ITT, he obliterated the best TTers in the world by 1+ minutes.


Hasn't he won like 4 or 5 TTs in the Giro and a world time trial championship? It doesn't seem to me all that surprising, he had to be considered one of the likely winners going into it. Landis probably would've have been more than 30 seconds off him if he didn't have to change bikes. Relative to everyone Hincapie was down a bit, but not a whole lot. Zabriskie and Leipheimer had a bad days. Two of the best TTers weren't there (Ullrich and Basso). Julich might have finished high up but crashed out. Some young guys had better than expected riders, like Lang, Larson and Sinkewicz. Those guys were bigger surprises than Gonchar.


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## cyclodawg (Jul 1, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Hasn't he won like 4 or 5 TTs in the Giro and a world time trial championship?


Show me an Italian good at ITT, and winning a TT in the Giro would be impressive. Jan won it this year, easily, and he was basically on a training ride. The same is true of the world championships. The best TT'sts usually don't show up. 

You just don't see 36 year olders with Honchars results both in the past and this year take minutes from the best TTists in the world. Landis clearly had an outstanding day and was riding with more than a little anger, and he would not have been within a half minute even without the mechanical. Everyone else is nearly two minutes back. Unbelieveable. 

It would not have been more surprising if Ekimov had won the TT (he's won a few of those on big stages as well...).


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

cyclodawg said:


> You just don't see 36 year olders with Honchars results both in the past and this year take minutes from the best TTists in the world. Landis clearly had an outstanding day and was riding with more than a little anger, and he would not have been within a half minute even without the mechanical. Everyone else is nearly two minutes back. Unbelieveable.


I guess we're going to just have to agree to disagree. I see Gonchar's name on the startlist at any TT and I think well he's got to be considered in with a shot. The rest of those guys other than maybe Landis and Zabriskie that thought doesn't come into my mind. Gonchar was 4th in the long TT at the Giro this year only about a minute off of Ullrich and 30 seconds off Basso.

Mind you, none of that means I don't think he's doping. I think anybody riding at the top of the GC is probably up to no good. I just don't think his win was that big of a surprise. Now if Hincapie would have won I would have been shocked but people seem to have had him down as one of the favorites even!


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Hasn't he won like 4 or 5 TTs in the Giro and a world time trial championship? It doesn't seem to me all that surprising, he had to be considered one of the likely winners going into it. Landis probably would've have been more than 30 seconds off him if he didn't have to change bikes. Relative to everyone Hincapie was down a bit, but not a whole lot. Zabriskie and Leipheimer had a bad days. *Two of the best TTers weren't there (Ullrich and Basso)*. Julich might have finished high up but crashed out. Some young guys had better than expected riders, like Lang, Larson and Sinkewicz. Those guys were bigger surprises than Gonchar.



...and _why_ weren't the two of the best TTers not there? 

Gontchar's basic overall palmarès:

*1997*: *Giro d'Italia* - 13th and *1st in the ITTs* and 5th on GC
*1998*: *Giro d'Italia* - 2nd twice and *1st in the ITTs* and 10th on GC
1999: Giro d'Italia - 2nd and 3rd in the ITTs and 7th on GC
*2000*: Giro d'Italia - 3rd and 4th in the ITTs and 9th on GC
*World Championships* - ITT *1st place*
2001: Giro d'Italia - 4th in one ITT and 4th on GC
2002: Giro d'Italia - 2nd twice in the ITTs and 23rd on GC
*2003*: *Giro d'Italia* - *1st* and 3rd in the ITTs and 8th on GC
*2004*: *Giro d'Italia* - *1st in the ITT* and 2nd on GC
2005: Giro d'Italia - 5th and 6th in the ITTs and 6th on GC
*2006*: Giro d'Italia - 4th and 5th in the ITTs and DNF
*Tour de France* - *1st in the ITT* and currently in the yellow jersey.

Fact: He turned 36 last week on July 3rd

Fact: For his age, he's about the most competitive guy in the Tour de France since Joaquim Agostinho finished 3rd on GC in 1978 and 79 at the ages of 34 and 35. He was 1st in 17th stage (Alpe d'Huez) in 1979. Joaquim Agostinho started his career when he was discovered at age 25.

Fact: The oldest winners of the Giro are Fiorenzo Magni and Toni Rominger who were 34.

Fact: The oldest winners of the Tour de France was Firmin Lambot (1922) who was 36.

Fact: In the modern era the oldest winners of the Tour de France were Joop Zoetemelk and Lance Armstrong who were both 33.

Fact: Gontchar's results at the Giro peaked in 2004 when he was 33 yrs and 10 months old. As would be expected for his age his results at the Giro have declined over the last two years. He has been 4th, 5th, 5th and 6th in Giro ITT during the last two years.

Fact: At 36 he has just won his first ITT/any kind of stage in the Tour de France


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

cyclodawg said:


> Nothing in Honchar's past results suggests that he could do what he did on Saturday.



To be fair, I think saying nothing in the his past results from his entire career suggests that he could do what he did on Saturday might be a tad off. However, based on his results at the Giro during the last two years, which do fit his age profile more realistically I do agree that his performance on Saturday is very suspect.


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## bjarne (Aug 28, 2002)

*Remember all the facts please....*

I refuse to think that every time some rides fast, then he must be doped.
That's just too depressing.

BUT you do forget one thing about your good friend Gonchar.
The reasson why he and his team Vini Calderolla didn't ride the 1999 Tour allthough they initially received a wild card, was that mister Gonchar wasted busted with a blod level of over 52.

Don't praise him to wildly......


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

rocco said:


> Fact: At 36 he has just won his first ITT/any kind of stage in the Tour de France


Yeah but how much of that can be put down to the Giro being the focus of his season almost every year for the last decade? Who knows how he would have done in the Tour, he's only ridden it a few times I believe.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

bjarne said:


> I refuse to think that every time some rides fast, then he must be doped.
> That's just too depressing.
> 
> BUT you do forget one thing about your good friend Gonchar.
> ...


If you think I'm praising him you may want to go back and thoroughly read what I've written here in several of my posts/replies in this thread.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Yeah but how much of that can be put down to the Giro being the focus of his season almost every year for the last decade? Who knows how he would have done in the Tour, he's only ridden it a few times I believe.


Gonchar finished close third to Botero and Lance at TdF ITT few years back. Time trial specialists like Ullrich, or Armstrong would blow Honchar's time away. It was nothing special, in proper context. Then again, Botero and Ullrich were busted. Maybe Armstrong, Zabriskie and Landis were doping also? 

As to age - anyone heard of this guy named Ekimov? He won Olympic time trial in Athens at age 38. Of course he was beaten by doper Hamilton, who refuses to hand over his medal.
Or maybe Eki was doping too? 

I am tired of people referring to Ullrich as the product of East Germany. In 1989 when the wall came down he was 16. The country was falling apart long before then.
By 1989 East Germany government couldn't afford state-supported doping program. It definitely couldn't do anything in late 1990ies when Ulle was racing as professional.

Ulle lives in Switzerland, was ("allegedly") doping in Spain. His East-Germany background has nothing to do with anything. Cold war was over 20 years ago, welcome to 21st century, people.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Yeah but how much of that can be put down to the Giro being the focus of his season almost every year for the last decade? Who knows how he would have done in the Tour, he's only ridden it a few times I believe.



What does that have to do with the fact that he's 36 and thus too old according the statistics to be getting this kind of result in any grand tour? Look at the facts.

...and FYI, In 2005 he was with Domina Vacanze and he was 39th in the first ITT, 91st in the TTT and DNS'd stage 8 and thus never did the last ITT. In 2004 and 2003 he was with De Nardi/De Nardi-Colpack and they get selected for the Tour. In 2002 he was with Fassa Bortolo and was 3rd and 6th in the ITTs at the Tour. In 2001 and 2000 he was with Liquigas-Pata and they didn't get in the Tour.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*well first of all*

I have to say 'Viva La Mash!" cause I'm tired of all this spinning. Way to go Seghiy!
Second he's supposed to be a quite fellow who, whenever he opens he mouth can bust an entire room into laughter. He also seemed really happy to win a stage and get the yellow. I'm glad to see the enthusiasm. Between he and Kessler they have saved T-Mobs tour so far. I see them working for Kloden as I think he has the best GC chances. Personally I think it's his Shnozz, Gonchar can just tale more air in and that beak looks quite aero.
Floyd is sitting well, when he got dropped at the Dauphine it was intentionally, he didn't push. In the races this year where he did, he either dropped the field or hung with the climbers of the race. I think he'll be fine this tour.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

MaRider said:


> Gonchar finished close third to Botero and Lance at TdF ITT few years back. Time trial specialists like Ullrich, or Armstrong would blow Honchar's time away. It was nothing special, in proper context. Then again, Botero and Ullrich were busted. Maybe Armstrong, Zabriskie and Landis were doping also?


That was in 2002 when he was 32, Landis was doing his first Tour and Zabriskie wasn't even there. Good grief.




MaRider said:


> As to age - anyone heard of this guy named Ekimov? He won Olympic time trial in Athens at age 38. Of course he was beaten by doper Hamilton, who refuses to hand over his medal.
> Or maybe Eki was doping too?


Winning an single day event at like the Olympic ITT or the WC ITT at age 38 isn't unprecedented. Winning an ITT in a three week tour at an age over 33 or 34 is unprecedented. Recovery is huge in a grand tour and at 35, 36, 37 or beyond that ability has declined to the point where these things just don't happen naturally. Look at the history if you don't believe me. Show me an example of anyone ever winning an ITT in a grand tour who was older than 34.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

atpjunkie said:


> I have to say 'Viva La Mash!" cause I'm tired of all this spinning. Way to go Seghiy!
> Second he's supposed to be a quite fellow who, whenever he opens he mouth can bust an entire room into laughter. He also seemed really happy to win a stage and get the yellow. I'm glad to see the enthusiasm. Between he and Kessler they have saved T-Mobs tour so far. I see them working for Kloden as I think he has the best GC chances. Personally I think it's his Shnozz, Gonchar can just tale more air in and that beak looks quite aero.
> Floyd is sitting well, when he got dropped at the Dauphine it was intentionally, he didn't push. In the races this year where he did, he either dropped the field or hung with the climbers of the race. I think he'll be fine this tour.



Well maybe the UCI needs to take a closer look at his shnozz and his humour because he's gassing everyone.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

rocco said:


> What does that have to do with the fact that he's 36 and thus too old according the statistics to be getting this kind of result in any grand tour? Look at the facts.
> 
> ...and FYI, In 2005 he was with Domina Vacanze and he was 39th in the first ITT, 91st in the TTT and DNS'd stage 8 and thus never did the last ITT. In 2004 and 2003 he was with De Nardi/De Nardi-Colpack and they get selected for the Tour. In 2002 he was with Fassa Bortolo and was 3rd and 6th in the ITTs at the Tour. In 2001 and 2000 he was with Liquigas-Pata and they didn't get in the Tour.


Alright you win. I was a fool for believing Gonchar had a shot at the TT and not being surprised when he won it. I failed to appropriately consider his advanced age. Can we move on?


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Alright you win. I was a fool for believing Gonchar had a shot at the TT and not being surprised when he won it. I failed to appropriately consider his advanced age. Can we move on?



Look I think they're all probably doping too but I'm just saying this screams it. ...that's all.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*agree*



rocco said:


> Look I think they're all probably doping too but I'm just saying this screams it. ...that's all.


I have to agree that at 36, and the other hopefuls at this age who also get nailed for juicing, you just have to wonder, nothing wrong with that. Hey I still get [email protected] for Pantanis BEST TT OF HIS LIFE in 98....So what if he never performed that way again? So what if he actually rivaled Jan in the TT that year. Hey, who cares if he had never done it before....


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

rocco said:


> Look I think they're all probably doping too but I'm just saying this screams it. ...that's all.


I thought Guitterez screamed it at the Giro. I would consider this just a little yipe at this point. If he could hold to win it, I'd say it was a yell but not a scream


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

rocco said:


> That's a fair point though Dauphine Libere wasn't his highest objective, the Tour is. ... we'll see.


Hey you actually follow bike racing too!


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## cyclodawg (Jul 1, 2003)

MaRider said:


> As to age - anyone heard of this guy named Ekimov? He won Olympic time trial in Athens at age 38. Of course he was beaten by doper Hamilton, who refuses to hand over his medal.
> Or maybe Eki was doping too?


Eki finished seven minutes back of Gonchar on Saturday. Seven minutes. And he's the 2004 Olympic TT silver-medalist. 

Look at the final results from Saturday. T-Mobile gets six of their seven guys in the top 14 and all their riders in the top 35. That's unbelievable. CSC has been the best in the TTT recently, and look at where their guys finished: 10, 16, 22, 89, 120, 137, 154...


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Maybe more of T-Mobiles riders should have been looked at closely for doing the nasty.


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## cyclodawg (Jul 1, 2003)

Live Steam said:


> Maybe more of T-Mobiles riders should have been looked at closely for doing the nasty.


Discovery, the team that's won the last 3 or 4 TTT's in the Tour, placed this way: 13, 17, 23, 24, 33, 36, 38, 80, 84. A little better than CSC, but FIVE T-Mobile riders finished with better times than Salvodelli, the top Disco guy. It would have been six with Ullrich. 

T-Mobile would have won a TTT this year by about five minutes.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

rocco said:


> That was in 2002 when he was 32, Landis was doing his first Tour and Zabriskie wasn't even there. Good grief.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


36 is not that old. A lot of people retire not because they can't do it anymore, but because they don't want to do it anymore. Lance could have killed in occasional ITT if he kept training through 36. So would Indurain or Merckx. 

Moreau is 35 and he is one of the GC favorites. Gonchar was mentioned by several people as favorite to take the ITT. Konyshev is still racing well at 40. There are many examples like that.

So what if he is 36 - this is an off year with no clear favorites. If anything, lack of usual consistency from Disco boys, especially Hincapie, but also Zabriskie and Leipheimer should be suspicious as evidence of their past doping - perhaps they got scared by Operacion Puerto and decided to lay low for a while. So now you see new faces like Fothen and Lang and Larsson.

Are you sure you are just unhappy that Landis got beat? He is riding pretty well for a guy who needs hip replacement surgery. He must be doping.

Name another rider who rides as well as Landis while in need of a hip replacement.

Name another rider who won TdF after overcoming testicular cancer.

Name another rider who suddenly "learned" how to climb and wins mountain-top stage against best climbers at age 32, a-la Hincapie.

Name another rider who won a tour while carrying lead pellets from near-fatal hunting accident, like Lemond did?

The list could go on... We can prove anyone is doping! Too consistent - doping. Too inconsistent - doping. Late bloomer - doping. Young superstar who never did anything afterwards - doping.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

MaRider said:


> Name another rider who suddenly "learned" how to climb and wins mountain-top stage against best climbers at age 32, a-la Hincapie.


Let's keep it honest here  Hincapie has never done this. He won a mountain top finish from a breakaway that wasn't pulled back after he sat on for most of the day. Other than that he's had a time hear and there where he was able to whittle the peloton down to a pretty small group for Armstrong. But he's never shown he can climb with the best.


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## cyclodawg (Jul 1, 2003)

MaRider said:


> 36 is not that old. A lot of people retire not because they can't do it anymore, but because they don't want to do it anymore. Lance could have killed in occasional ITT if he kept training through 36. So would Indurain or Merckx.


Are you comparing Gonchar to Armstrong, Indurain, and Merckx?!?

I agree that one of those guys could put a minute into this field at 36. Gonchar is not one of those guys. 



> If anything, lack of usual consistency from Disco boys, especially Hincapie, but also Zabriskie and Leipheimer should be suspicious as evidence of their past doping - perhaps they got scared by Operacion Puerto and decided to lay low for a while. So now you see new faces like Fothen and Lang and Larsson.


Puerto didn't blow up until the day before the Tour. No one expected it to take down anyone, other than perhaps the Wurth team, like it did. 

If Hincapie, Zabriskie, or Leipheimer had turned in a performance like Gonchar's, it would have looked a little suspicious. Not as suspicious, since those guys have been dominant in the recent past in TT's and are in their primes, but still suspicious. There is not a rider in the field that should be putting a minute into every one of the top TT's in the world. Lance and Ullrich could have done that. Zabriskie on a great day. No one else.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I think it was all in his pedaling*

while other riders rode higher cadence Gonchar's mash kept his HR lower and gave him more consistent power throughout the entire TT. Where the spinners went who went out too hard too early faded or tried to accelerate near the end and couldn't, Seghiy just mashed along.
Viva La MAsh!


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> while other riders rode higher cadence Gonchar's mash kept his HR lower and gave him more consistent power throughout the entire TT. Where the spinners went who went out too hard too early faded or tried to accelerate near the end and couldn't, Seghiy just mashed along.
> Viva La MAsh!


Wow, amazing, one year post LANCE and we've already gone from stupid high cadence to stupid low cadence being the key to great power output


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Live Steam said:


> Hey you actually follow bike racing too!



Ever since I was hate'n Ronald Reagan...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

MaRider said:


> 36 is not that old. A lot of people retire not because they can't do it anymore, but because they don't want to do it anymore. Lance could have killed in occasional ITT if he kept training through 36. So would Indurain or Merckx.
> 
> Moreau is 35 and he is one of the GC favorites. Gonchar was mentioned by several people as favorite to take the ITT. Konyshev is still racing well at 40. There are many examples like that.
> 
> ...



cyclists in the Tour - doping.  

We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## fringale37 (Feb 6, 2005)

So what of Lang's time trial performance, I just thought everyone else was really slow I was looking for Popo to take it to them or maybe Roger's and do not forget Evan's time trial capabilities, when I watched the TT I really thought everyone else forgot to eat their breakfast or lunch it seemed like they were going in reverse as opposed to other Grand Tour time trial performances of the past 3 years it made me feel really bad for the sport.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

cyclodawg said:


> Eki finished seven minutes back of Gonchar on Saturday. Seven minutes. And he's the 2004 Olympic TT silver-medalist.
> 
> Look at the final results from Saturday. T-Mobile gets six of their seven guys in the top 14 and all their riders in the top 35. That's unbelievable. CSC has been the best in the TTT recently, and look at where their guys finished: 10, 16, 22, 89, 120, 137, 154...


Umm.... No. Where do you guys get this misinformation?

Ekimov finished 2:40 behind Gonchar on Saturday, and 2 seconds ahead of Hincapie. And Eki had no reason to do a good ITT - he wasn't riding to become a Disco leader.

Now, before you guys go on accusing people left and right just because the guy you liked didn't win, let's think about it for a second. 32 year Hincapie finishes around the same time as 40-year old Eki, who didn't even had a reason to ride hard. So how much time per year past age 35 one "MUST" lose in time trial? half-a-minute? a minute? 2 minutes a year? Either way, Eki's performance should have been far more suspicious, using your logic.

The fact remains - Gonchar has been consistently top time trialist for many years. Saying that someone comes out of nowhere is one thing - Lang, Larsson or Fothen, but even there it's not a total surprise. But in a tour without top favorites, on a strange, tough windy day a guy with most experience, plenthy of ITT wins at Giro, world champion and a huge engine wins, and I for one wasn't too surpised. Anyone who was surprised needs to pay closer attention to the sport.

Of course I also need to remind myself that many people let their egos, biases, hype and personal feelings dictate their posts.

Here's what I learned from this thread so far:

1. If Discovery dominates T-mobile in time-trial, this is because of Disco's work ethic and leadership of Lance. If T-mobile dominates discovery in time trial, it's because they are a bunch of dopers.

2. T-mobile had two guys involved in Puerto, therefore the entire team must be doping. Phonak had 4 or 5 guys involved, therefore... Well - any of them could be dopers, except of course Landis.

3. One can time trial with the best in the word at age 32, age 34, age 35, age 38 (but only if it's Olympics), but not at age 36. Everyone must have a suddent drop-off in performances the moment they turn 35.5. Unless it's Olympics, then anything goes.

4. Can't trust spanish riders, they are all dopers. Same goes for italians (Basso, Pantani). Same for soviet block countries, including East Germany - can't trust those commies. French may be doping too, simply because we don't like them. West germany is good guys, as well as England, Australia and old good US - anyone who speaks english can be trusted, we are "good" guys here.

5. Team Discovery is still in the race - they will put their GC contenders in breakaways, Hincapie will outclimb them all, etc. Other teams are screwed - they don't know how to do it. Hincapie can climb with the best. Gonchar cannot.

6. Landis lost ITT by only 20-30 seconds, if you don't count the bike change. It's all because of "evil" UCI, not his mechanics. So it's all good for Landis. But the first guy must have been doping, because he won by over a minute (let's not mention the bike change here, as it undermines our point). Nobody is allowed to win by a minute. Unless they come from a list of "allowed to win by a minute" riders - such as Hincapie, Landis, Zabriskie. They proved they can do it because a) they are americans b) they won more team trials at grand tours and world ITT championships than Rogers, Gonchar and Millar combined! Oh wait, they didn't... 

7. A 31-year old american with failing hip should be able to beat a healthy 36-year old world ITT champion easily. Similarly, a 32-year old american should be able to beat a healthy 40-year old teammate/Olympic medalist. Especially if the older guys are not americans. If they cannot beat them, it's because those other older guys are doping.

8. No amount of factual misstatements can undermine the argument that someone is "obviously" doping. As long as you say "well, everyone is doping - but that guy is doping a lot more than everyone else". Yeah, right... 

But at least this thread is entertaining to watch from sociological angle...


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

55x11 said:


> 1. If Discovery dominates T-mobile in time-trial, this is because of Disco's work ethic and leadership of Lance. If T-mobile dominates discovery in time trial, it's because they are a bunch of dopers.


And unfortunately you have Roll on OLN practically screaming the entire TMobile team is dirty...


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

chuckice said:


> And unfortunately you have Roll on OLN practically screaming the entire TMobile team is dirty...


Bias on OLN? NO!


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## Live Steam (Feb 4, 2004)

Wow, I guess you got all of this from my little post. You're quite remarkable.


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*ooops*



55x11 said:


> Umm.... No. Where do you guys get this misinformation?
> 
> Ekimov finished 2:40 behind Gonchar on Saturday, and 2 seconds ahead of Hincapie. And Eki had no reason to do a good ITT - he wasn't riding to become a Disco leader.
> 
> ...


The issue is very simple. Doping in this years TDF in particualr has become the 800 pound gorilla with a bad skin condition and terrible BO. It will be almost impossible to look at any performance from really almost any individual without some suspicion. Lets face it, you cant put the sh!t back in the horse. 

Is it fair. No. Is it correct, probably not.

HOWEVER, I am fresh out of wow look at that 36 year old guy go and wow where is Big George. Its time to move on nd watch the Tour. As to doping, it is at best difficult to watch the speeds, the physical agony and then with a straight face say, hey, bring that on all natural.....IMO


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

*Who do you think you're kidding?*



55x11 said:


> 3. One can time trial with the best in the word at age 32, age 34, age 35, age 38 (but only if it's Olympics), but not at age 36. Everyone must have a suddent drop-off in performances the moment they turn 35.5. Unless it's Olympics, then anything goes.


If you really know as much about cycling as you claim you do you would know why this is a misleading statment. ...but you know that already because you do know so much about cycling.


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## cyclodawg (Jul 1, 2003)

55x11 said:


> Umm.... No. Where do you guys get this misinformation?
> 
> Ekimov finished 2:40 behind Gonchar on Saturday, and 2 seconds ahead of Hincapie. And Eki had no reason to do a good ITT - he wasn't riding to become a Disco leader.


My mistake on Eki. I was looking at the overall instead of the stage results. He must have lost 5 minutes on a sprint stage for some reason. Might be setting himself up to get into a break later in the race. 



> Now, before you guys go on accusing people left and right just because the guy you liked didn't win, let's think about it for a second. 32 year Hincapie finishes around the same time as 40-year old Eki, who didn't even had a reason to ride hard. So how much time per year past age 35 one "MUST" lose in time trial? half-a-minute? a minute? 2 minutes a year? Either way, Eki's performance should have been far more suspicious, using your logic.


No, based on his past performances, one would expect Eki to lose about 2.5 minutes in a TT. It is his specialty, and he is old. With the exception of some sprinters, all the riders go hard in the first TT, particularly if their team is in the running for the team classification. Eki was going just as hard as anyone on that stage. 



> The fact remains - Gonchar has been consistently top time trialist for many years. Saying that someone comes out of nowhere is one thing - Lang, Larsson or Fothen, but even there it's not a total surprise. But in a tour without top favorites, on a strange, tough windy day a guy with most experience, plenthy of ITT wins at Giro, world champion and a huge engine wins, and I for one wasn't too surpised. Anyone who was surprised needs to pay closer attention to the sport.


Everyone needs to pay closer attention, then, because no one picked Gonchar to place. 



> Of course I also need to remind myself that many people let their egos, biases, hype and personal feelings dictate their posts.


Hmm. Yes. 



> 1. If Discovery dominates T-mobile in time-trial, this is because of Disco's work ethic and leadership of Lance. If T-mobile dominates discovery in time trial, it's because they are a bunch of dopers.


The point is that, until Saturday, neither T-Mobile, nor CSC, nor Disco had dominated the other in a TT before. Disco was winning in the Tours because of Lance, and CSC had an edge in other races. Suddenly T-Mobile blows both out of the water, and that after losing Ullrich. That's extraordinarily suspicious. 



> 2. T-mobile had two guys involved in Puerto, therefore the entire team must be doping. Phonak had 4 or 5 guys involved, therefore... Well - any of them could be dopers, except of course Landis.


Landis's rise this year might cause some suspicion as well. But keep in mind that Landis tests better than Lance did in clearing lactate. He's a physical freak too, without doping. 



> 5. Team Discovery is still in the race - they will put their GC contenders in breakaways, Hincapie will outclimb them all, etc. Other teams are screwed - they don't know how to do it. Hincapie can climb with the best. Gonchar cannot.


Disco won't get a leader in a breakaway, and they probably won't attack on a mountain. They'll likely try to hold serve in the mountains, hope the race comes back to them (ie, Landis having a couple bad days), then ride a strong TT (Hincapie and Falco are less than a minute behind Evans et al.).


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## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*good point*



cyclodawg said:


> My mistake on Eki. I was looking at the overall instead of the stage results. He must have lost 5 minutes on a sprint stage for some reason. Might be setting himself up to get into a break later in the race.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point about Disco and the breakaways. I have wondered what Big George could do on the mountains. His physique is a bit different than usual. Perhaps he focused on climbing this sseason??


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

"Everyone needs to pay closer attention, then, because no one picked Gonchar to place."

Where's the love? I like to think I pay attention some what  From http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=65639

I said, "That's my pick; Rogers, Gonchar and Evans could be in with a shot as well." 

So while I didn't pick him to win out right I at least recognized he was a potential winner!



"Landis's rise this year might cause some suspicion as well. But keep in mind that Landis tests better than Lance did in clearing lactate. He's a physical freak too, without doping." 

Come now. Landis is as likely to be doping as Gonchar or any other rider.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

rocco said:


> Ask Laurent Fignon about July 23, 1989.


I just called him up. He yelled at me. "Stupeed Amereecahn. I wuz turd on zee stage. Now go ayeway!!"


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*sorry Dwayne*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Wow, amazing, one year post LANCE and we've already gone from stupid high cadence to stupid low cadence being the key to great power output


I guess my humor didn't show up in the posting. I only went this route as High Cadence is a trend that is supposed to be 'the thing' when in reality, whatever works best for the individual should be 'the thing'. I was only cheering Serghiy's mash because it bucked the current trend and showed 'following the trend' doesn't always get ya the win. His technique looks clumsy and antiquated but that yellow shirt says 'nuh uh'


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