# LT vs FTP vs Vo2Max Intervals



## zhmontana (Aug 16, 2004)

Hi--
I wanted to get your take on the adaptations that are being driven by intervals done at LT vs FTP vs VO2max and how best to perform and frequency to perform the intervals.

I have been tested and know my LT and Vo2max HR and Power. I currently race cat4 and obviously would like to get to cat3. I typically race crits, but would love to be competitive in RR's as well. I consider myself a sprinter, i have pretty decent acceleration and am very competitive at high sprint speeds. I struggle though to keep my HR down and hang on anytime things pitch up hill or when there are just too many accelerations. If i want to maintain my sprint and increase my ability to hang on through multiple accelerations and climbs - where should i focus my time?

Thanks!


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm not a coach but...

A high threshold power (FTP) will allow you to recover from surges more quickly. You'll be "out of the red" earlier and thus the surges won't be so taxing.

High VO2max power will allow you to make and go with those surges. 

So you want both high FTP and high VO2max power. I'm willing to bet you'd have the best perceived result from raising your FTP, though. Even if your tippy top end isn't as high as it could be, you'll be a stronger motor overall. 

If you know what your power numbers are, what does your power profile look like (i.e. skewed toward 1M and 5s power)?


----------



## Sub (Feb 13, 2004)

zhmontana said:


> Hi--
> I wanted to get your take on the adaptations that are being driven by intervals done at LT vs FTP vs VO2max and how best to perform and frequency to perform the intervals.
> 
> I have been tested and know my LT and Vo2max HR and Power. I currently race cat4 and obviously would like to get to cat3. I typically race crits, but would love to be competitive in RR's as well. I consider myself a sprinter, i have pretty decent acceleration and am very competitive at high sprint speeds. I struggle though to keep my HR down and hang on anytime things pitch up hill or when there are just too many accelerations. If i want to maintain my sprint and increase my ability to hang on through multiple accelerations and climbs - where should i focus my time?
> ...


what is your height and weight if you don't mind me asking? How long Have you been training? 

"VO2max increases rapidly when you begin training regularly and levels off within a few months as you near your genetic limit. After that it can continue to rise gradually for several years, but but bulk of improvement relates to other physiological and tactical variables that improve more quickly with training" (Bike Racing 101, Kendra Wenzel - Rene Wenzel)

On the other hand, you can increase power at a much steadier and faster rate.

It's also important to look at your racing tactics. Where do you sit in the field, are you conserving all the energy you can? At what point do you typicaly struggle?


----------



## zhmontana (Aug 16, 2004)

I am in my third year of racing, the first year was only a couple of races though... i have been riding road for about the same amount of time.
I am 5'10", 175lbs, very muscular upper and lower body.
My LT HR is ~180bpm - I will avg 177-182 for 45-55 mins in a fast crit. I have seen up to 1500-1600W as a max 5s effort in a sprint. I don't know my FTP, as i have never tested it, but i doubt that it is over 260-270W. My Vo2max power is only around ~400W.
I am pretty decent at pack positioning in a crit and have been able to place top 15, but would like to be able to do so on courses with more acclerations or repeated climbs/rollers. What types of intervals will drive the best adaptations to improve my ability to repeatedly match the accelerations in a crit or match pace on repeated short climbs (ie semi hard rollers)?


----------



## Sub (Feb 13, 2004)

sounds like increasing your sustainable power would help, but you need to focus on speed. You need to work on short intervals, Do some shorter inverals in the 45-60 second range all out, then recover and do it again. In criteriums, your doing alot of sprints out of the corner so you need to work on that repeatability. Your on the high end on the weight scale for your height, if you could drop down 5-8 lbs that would certainly help you on the smaller hills (and longer ones for that matter). One thing you need to focus on is finding the smoothest line so your are sprinting/accelerating as litte as possible out of the corners. This is a general idea of what you need to do.


----------



## zhmontana (Aug 16, 2004)

Sub said:


> Your on the high end on the weight scale for your height, if you could drop down 5-8 lbs that would certainly help you on the smaller hills (and longer ones for that matter).QUOTE]
> 
> I am 7% body fat, so not going to be losing any weight unfortunately.
> 
> ...


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

You are getting shelled on climbs and having trouble recovering from accelerations. That IS NOT an indication of sub par 60 second power. It's an indication that you need to bring up your FTP. Ignore your sprint, ignore 5 minute intervals, ignore 60 second intervals. If you aren't "there" at the end of the race, what does it matter that you're able to put out mad watts in a sprint (1500+ for 5s is pretty impressive, btw)? If you are that good of a sprinter you could never ever work on it formally and you're still going to be pretty darn good.


----------



## Sub (Feb 13, 2004)

shawndoggy said:


> You are getting shelled on climbs and having trouble recovering from accelerations. That IS NOT an indication of sub par 60 second power. It's an indication that you need to bring up your FTP. Ignore your sprint, ignore 5 minute intervals, ignore 60 second intervals. If you aren't "there" at the end of the race, what does it matter that you're able to put out mad watts in a sprint (1500+ for 5s is pretty impressive, btw)? If you are that good of a sprinter you could never ever work on it formally and you're still going to be pretty darn good.


Yes, there is a bigger issue in that he needs to improve his overall fitness and sustainable power. It does sound like the accelerations and the short efforts are what is really putting him over the edge. He has to have enough left when it comes time to sprint so that he can utilize that 1500w sprint. I don't think there is one simple interval that is going to fix everything, but the one I suggested will help him with the surges during the race.


----------



## zhmontana (Aug 16, 2004)

shawndoggy said:


> You are getting shelled on climbs and having trouble recovering from accelerations. That IS NOT an indication of sub par 60 second power. It's an indication that you need to bring up your FTP. Ignore your sprint, ignore 5 minute intervals, ignore 60 second intervals. If you aren't "there" at the end of the race, what does it matter that you're able to put out mad watts in a sprint (1500+ for 5s is pretty impressive, btw)? If you are that good of a sprinter you could never ever work on it formally and you're still going to be pretty darn good.


This sounds right to me, my sprint is very strong - i can hang with or out sprint the cat 2 & 3 guys on our team, but i rarely get to use it as I have a hard time being there at the end. I am riding 5-6 days a week and ~150-200 miles, mostly either very easy or very hard miles.


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

Sub said:


> He has to have enough left when it comes time to sprint so that he can utilize that 1500w sprint. I don't think there is one simple interval that is going to fix everything, but the one I suggested will help him with the surges during the race.


That's a fun problem to get to deal with once he's in the mix at the end. But if he's not in the mix, working on an interval set that's gonna help finish off the last 1000m doesn't make a lot of sense (to me). 

Cat 4s, especially ones with a good sprint, tend to rely on the sprint too much. I know, I was one. Found the jump to Cat 3 and M123 races to be crushing at first for the very reasons that the OP describes, even though in the slower Cat 4 races I could do just fine.

A solid diet of threshold work (2x20s at 90%+ FTP, for instance) 3-4x a week for a few months will work wonders for this sort of stuff. But to a lot of people that sounds too hard and monotonous and they won't do the work. 

Which is fine by me. You can lead a horse to water and all that.


----------



## zhmontana (Aug 16, 2004)

shawndoggy said:


> A solid diet of threshold work (2x20s at 90%+ FTP, for instance) 3-4x a week for a few months will work wonders for this sort of stuff. But to a lot of people that sounds too hard and monotonous and they won't do the work.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 2x20's @ 90% FTP sounds like a good option - I am willing to put in the work.
> ...


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

zhmontana said:


> 2x20's @ 90% FTP sounds like a good option - I am willing to put in the work.
> Would 4x15's @ FTP be equally as good or better??
> I did these once and they were hard, but i wasn't sure if they were the right interval for me to be doing - so i decided to get more advice before wasting time.


Completely anecdotal evidence, but I find that the intervals that have the most impact for me are longer and just a shade less intense. My FTP is about 300. I can do 2x20s at 290, but trying to maintain 270w for 90 minutes.... THAT is what it's all about. Makes you tough as nails for time trials, etc. 

Point being, it's OK to mix it up. If you go shorter, go a little harder. If you go longer, you can "give" yourself a 5% power cushion and still get a very appreciable benefit as long as you extend the duration. 270 can sometimes feel a lot easier than 290+, even where you are holding it for longer.

What you don't want to do is try to go as hard as you can for 10 or 15 minutes and then repeat the effort. FTP is the power you can hold steady for an hour. 10 or 15 minute max power will be higher. But you don't need to push that hard to build your aerobic engine. Better to go a little under FTP and add more duration in the zone (and it burns more calories that way too).

For more info on using this approach, go over to cyclingforums.com and search "sweet spot training" or SST in the power forum. It ain't my idea by any means.

Might not be obvious, but these intervals are really best done on a trainer unless you've got a long (like half hour plus long) steady climb nearby. You can do them on the flats, but you need to do them somewhere where you can hold the wattage steady for the duration. I think that that's one of the reasons that people don't do these.... it's hard to find somewhere where you don't have to stop (or at least get off the gas) for 20-90 minutes.


----------



## HillBillies (May 16, 2007)

zhmontana said:


> Sub said:
> 
> 
> > Your on the high end on the weight scale for your height, if you could drop down 5-8 lbs that would certainly help you on the smaller hills (and longer ones for that matter).QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Bodybuilders are 3% BF at contest time but they can still lose a lot of weight. Did a quick check and as a point of reference Cipo was 6'2", 174lbs, so you seem to have a lot of dead weight you're lugging around.


----------



## Giantcyclist (Jan 22, 2004)

shawndoggy said:


> Completely anecdotal evidence, but I find that the intervals that have the most impact for me are longer and just a shade less intense. My FTP is about 300. I can do 2x20s at 290, but trying to maintain 270w for 90 minutes.... THAT is what it's all about. Makes you tough as nails for time trials, etc.
> 
> Point being, it's OK to mix it up. If you go shorter, go a little harder. If you go longer, you can "give" yourself a 5% power cushion and still get a very appreciable benefit as long as you extend the duration. 270 can sometimes feel a lot easier than 290+, even where you are holding it for longer.
> 
> ...



This is excellent advice! I agree entirely.

Btw, 2x20 at 290 watts is very respectable. Can I ask what you weigh? When power is the measurement, it's hard to compare apples to apples without knowing a person's weight.


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

shawndoggy said:


> Completely anecdotal evidence, but I find that the intervals that have the most impact for me are longer and just a shade less intense. My FTP is about 300. I can do 2x20s at 290, but trying to maintain 270w for 90 minutes.... THAT is what it's all about. Makes you tough as nails for time trials, etc.


You need to retest your FTP or suffer through the 2x20s more. If you can shell out 300w for 60min and only 290 for 2x20's, you're doing something wrong.

What other people are saying about needing to raise your FTP is true, first and foremost. Work on intervals no shorter than 13min. A 2x20 (3min rest) is the same as a 1x40, but mentally less taxing. There is a 30sec half-life with fatigue, so taking 1-2 turns "off-power" (ie power < 95% of FTP) for up to 30s is still OK. Do not do any more, though, and do not stop pedaling. This half-life also helps when it comes time to do 2x20s with 30s sprints every couple minutes. Your body will not fatigue much...although your mind is a different story.

Wait until about 6 weeks from your main event to throw in shorter 5-6min intervals. Winter is a time for steady buildup of nearly anaerobic-free workouts. It takes a long time to develop an aerobic engine, but much less time to develop anaerobic or neuromuscular capacity.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

zhmontana said:


> I have been tested and know my LT and Vo2max HR and Power. I currently race cat4 and obviously would like to get to cat3. I typically race crits, but would love to be competitive in RR's as well. I consider myself a sprinter...


Work all 3. You are typical of a starter athlete with some natural ability to sprint or jump. The sprint comes easy, but you find it hard to get to the end of the race in shape to sprint. Work on your aerobic threshold and Vo2Max power. 

The worst thing I've seen is an athlete declare him/herself a <sprinter> and then get dropped in a flat RR.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

iliveonnitro said:


> What other people are saying about needing to raise your FTP is true, first and foremost. Work on intervals no shorter than 13min.


OTOH, I would say work on 5x5 (5 intervals of 5 on, 5 off at FT) all winter.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Spunout said:


> OTOH, I would say work on 5x5 (5 intervals of 5 on, 5 off at FT) all winter.


Why such a long rest? 1:1 might be typical of VO2max level intervals, but here you're recommending them for much lower intensity FT ones.


----------



## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Long rest periods: Winter trainer protocol. Mix them up with 4x4 days at 120%


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Long rest periods just wasted time. After your body has recovered enough, there is no need to do more -- even during winter.


----------



## teffisk (Mar 24, 2006)

if you want to get faster, buy the most expensive bike you can........... 


just kidding, i just want to see how much i get hounded.

What you can do is with all those training tips, "ride lots."


----------



## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> You need to retest your FTP or suffer through the 2x20s more. If you can shell out 300w for 60min and only 290 for 2x20's, you're doing something wrong.


Nah, I just can't hold above FTP indoors, where I do the 2x20s. For whatever reason (I believe it's purely motivational) I lose 3-5% indoors. No biggie; when I ride outdoors I can perform as you would expect. It's just that my outdoor rides, being only a few a week sadly enough, are less structured. (i.e. no 2x20s outdoors, but I'll do 30-60 minute climbs instead).


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

shawndoggy said:


> Nah, I just can't hold above FTP indoors, where I do the 2x20s. For whatever reason (I believe it's purely motivational) I lose 3-5% indoors. No biggie; when I ride outdoors I can perform as you would expect. It's just that my outdoor rides, being only a few a week sadly enough, are less structured. (i.e. no 2x20s outdoors, but I'll do 30-60 minute climbs instead).


That could definitely be the case, and that does change things. Indoor training (esp when it's still nice outside) is the worst. I like to lock myself in the basement at night, so I know that my time is best spent there on the trainer.

Oh yeah, 3 high-powered fans help a lot, too.


----------

