# Be VERY careful with 3T carbon bars & stem



## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

I feel kind of like Captain Obvious here, but just in case, I thought I'd save someone else some expense and aggravation...

I really don't want to start a new debate about why anyone would want to run carbon bars, but thought I'd pass this along.

I installed 2 sets of 3T Ergo Nova Team (carbon) bars on 3T Arx Team (aluminum) stems. Since they were carbon bars, I was VERY careful and used a torque wrench (used both the Bontrager and Ritchey wrenches that are pre-set to 5Nm, the torque clearly recommended on the stem), tightened the bolts in a cross pattern and made sure the gap at the top and bottom of the camp was the same. In fact the BARS say the max torque is 5.5Nm so I felt pretty safe tightening to 5Nm. I say I used both wrenches because I switched stems around a bit but all were 3T stems. Somewhere along the line, this happened:














After taking this bike to the LBS who told me the bar was dangerously crushed, I took a very close look at my other bike that has a similar set-up and though much less obvious, it has the same damage. Again, I NEVER tightened the stem bolts with anything other than a torque wrench (and I know not not to use fixed torque wrenches to loosen bolts too). 

Advice from the LBS was to use friction paste (which I had as you can see in the photo) and DON'T tighten to the max ("recommended" in my book as a conservative engineer) torque. Just tighten until it feels snug and haul on the bars to make sure they don't move. 

They're going to try to warranty the bars with 3T, but I'm not optimistic. 

Here endeth the $700 lesson.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

What kind of torque wrench?


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

OldChipper said:


> ...(used both the *Bontrager and Ritchey wrenches that are pre-set to 5Nm*, the torque clearly recommended on the stem), tightened the bolts in a cross pattern and made sure the gap at the top and bottom of the camp was the same...


Guess I included too many details for the modern attention span.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

It sounds like you did everything right. The only valid questions I can foresee 3T raising is calibration of the torque wrench. It would have to be pretty far off to lead to a cracking of the bar. 

Two unrelated questions: (1) where did you buy the bars, and (2) how dd the LBS determine the bars were "crushed"?

If indeed they are truly crushed, and everything else is proper, I don't see why they wouldn't honor their warranty (2 years. right ?).


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

^ Warranty^ issue if they're legit 3T. The ONLY time I've seen this happen on new stuff it was Deda forgery bar/stem. Lucky for us the national sales manager for Deda lives a couple miles away and he came over to check it out. Instantly declared them fakes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

You sure those are crused and it's not just a wrinkle in the red sticker? Did you hear a noise? I assume you would if you indeed crushed 'em.


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> ^ Warranty^ issue if they're legit 3T. The ONLY time I've seen this happen on new stuff it was Deda forgery bar/stem. Lucky for us the national sales manager for Deda lives a couple miles away and he came over to check it out. Instantly declared them fakes.


Where were these fakes purchased from?


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

VERY large, VERY reputable LBS in Boulder, CO that does lots of local and mail-order business (that should be enough for most local folks to figure it out). Forgery seems pretty unlikely unless it was a MASSIVE fraud as the bars were purchased about 6 months apart and one was an ErgoNova Team and the other an ErgoNova Team Stealth. 

They determined the bars were crushed by visual inspection by a couple of the guys there who are very experienced and with whom I've done a ton of business (i.e. they weren't just trying to make a quick sale). They said they've seen it before and it's usually engineers (like me), scientists etc. who often follow recommended specs to a "T." Thus my warning to others. 

I'll post what 3T says. I'd be more than happy to send them my wrenches so they can check the calibration. 

For locals who recognize the shop, I'd like to re-emphasize that I consider this LBS to be totally awesome. They've treated me VERY well and have always really gone out of their way to be helpful, find difficult-to-find parts, process warranties, help me out with complex build issues etc. They've offered to advocate for me with 3T as well. If forgery is involved, there's NO WAY they're at fault or trying to pass off counterfeit goods.

P.S. Thanks for the opinion CXWrench; you're the expert.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

You pretty much eliminated the knock-off issue. My only thought is bad batch. It can and does happen, unfortunately. The good news is you spotted it.

Looking forward to how this is resolved.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> You sure those are crused and it's not just a wrinkle in the red sticker? Did you hear a noise? I assume you would if you indeed crushed 'em.


I was wondering that too, but the words weren't even out of my mouth before the shop guys said: "Nope, that's crushed." I trust these guys implicitly, and they see a lot more of this kind of stuff than I do. I didn't hear any "snick" or "crack" type noises when tightening the bolts, just noticed the "wrinkle" after. I was working in a quiet environment too, so likely would have heard it if there was a noise involved.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

OldChipper said:


> I was wondering that too, but the words weren't even out of my mouth before the shop guys said: "Nope, that's crushed." I trust these guys implicitly, and they see a lot more of this kind of stuff than I do. I didn't hear any "snick" or "crack" type noises when tightening the bolts, just noticed the "wrinkle" after. I was working in a quiet environment too, so likely would have heard it if there was a noise involved.


Well they'd certainly know better than I especially having seen and touched them in person. But I still can't help but be less than sure they're crushed by looking at the pictures. Maybe take a penny or other coin and poke and prode around and see what that can tell you.

Of course they could be a defect but given how much force they can take from yanking on them by a strong sprinter it's hard to fathom 5nm applied evenly could crush them. I know if a different type of force but still. 

Maybe what I'm seeing is just the picure lighting or my imatination and it isn't actually there but if you look at the bottom of the 3 on your top picture it looks like somewhat of a elongated bubble that I can't see being caused by crushing and would seem to lend some credence to the wrinked label theory. Can you see what I'd referring to? It looks like a bubble to me which would seem to indicate the lable isn't totally clued down to the carbon.

Anyway, good luck with that.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

5DII said:


> Where were these fakes purchased from?


You know, I can't remember. Somewhere online I'd guess. He brought them in to have them installed on a bike we were tuning. I went to tighten the faceplate up and noticed that the bar wasn't matching up w/ the stem very well...as in it wasn't exactly round. Measured it and it was out by over 1mm front to back vs top to bottom.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I had the exact same thought when I first viewed the pics, hence my question about how it was determined that they were crushed. If competent mech's at a good, reputable LBS determined they were crushed, I certainly am in no position to question that. But if that red tape/sticker whatever it is moves that easily, I would think it should be able to be moved back just as easily. But then I really don't have clue without having the bars in hand.


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## Sumguy1 (Apr 5, 2008)

I just checked my notes on a build I did a few months ago with 3T Ergonova Team bars and Arx Team stem. I tightened the stem to 3.5 Nm and used carbon paste. 
No slipping and, from what I can tell, no crushing.

I wonder if you can lightly tap the bars with a hex wrench and hear a difference in sound if the clamping area is crushed.

I'll assume the shop is X and I agree, those folks are great.

I have heard a CF seat post make the crack sound whilst being tightened. Everyone in the shop went white. That post was being tightened to "Max" spec too. That's when I learned to be suspicious of the "Max." numbers and to avoid them. 

I also wonder about the 4 bolt "max" too. What's the clamping force of 4 bolts @ 5Nm vs one bolt @ 5Nm. Just curious.


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## ultimobici (Jul 16, 2005)

You mention Bontrager & RItchey preset torque wrenches. I wouldn't trust them to install components. A proper dial set torque wrench that is returned to zero after use is all I trust.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I've had smooshes like that on FSA carbon bars. It was due to the decal under the clearcoat getting compressed, not the underlying CF being compromised.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

looigi said:


> I've had smooshes like that on FSA carbon bars. It was due to the decal under the clearcoat getting compressed, not the underlying CF being compromised.


Seen the same dimple with other carbon bars that had been clamped with about 5 Nm and were clearly not damaged structurally, so add me to the people who question that quick "nope, that's crushed" judgement.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Welcome to the world of Carbon Fiber.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

froze said:


> Welcome to the world of Carbon Fiber.


Except its not clear there's any carbon fiber damage at all.

I will say that the part of the discussion revolving around whether or not there is structural damage is somewhat academic. Even without structural damage this is a clear warranty case, and calls for a replacement. But, in case anyone is interested, my money is on the no-structural-damage hypothesis, even though I would have the bar replaced, of course, if it was me.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Except its not clear there's any carbon fiber damage at all.


Yup. Looking closely at the pics, the apparent defect in the read/white is about perfectly symmetric on both sides, and it's raised, as if it stretched, slid and bunched up. It's not what I would expect for an underlying structural failure.



> I will say that the part of the discussion revolving around whether or not there is structural damage is somewhat academic. Even without structural damage this is a clear warranty case, and calls for a replacement. But, in case anyone is interested, my money is on the no-structural-damage hypothesis, even though I would have the bar replaced, of course, if it was me.


It strikes me as a defect too. How this is handled will say a lot about 3T.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Max torque is maximum, not recommended. Yes, tighten until the bar is solid, then stop. Do not tighten to 5.5nm and see if it is tight.

Use a real torque wrench, that zeros after use. Torque keys are for carrying in a saddlebag not for workshops.

My PRO carbon bars are fine after two years, carbon yes but unfashionably heavy. Anytime a product is superlight it will be more prone to break. Lots of superlight aluminum bars broke back in the olden days. Handlebars are the last place to go superlight.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

looigi said:


> I've had smooshes like that on FSA carbon bars. It was due to the decal under the clearcoat getting compressed, not the underlying CF being compromised.


Same here on Easton carbon bars. No structural damage.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Thanks for all the input guys. I will post what 3T says. Will take me a day or two to get the replaced bars back to the shop then, I'm sure, a little while to ship and examine by 3T. 

FWIW, I've checked the torque keys against a "real" torque wrench and they seem to be dead-on balls-accurate (obscure "My Cousin Vinnie" reference).


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## Milest (May 26, 2015)

*After your post I checked and I have the same problem.*

Mine look the same as yours. Same bars and same stem. I sent a note to 3T and will see where it leads. They do not flex and do not look compromised, but I damn sure don't want them breaking.

I'll post my findings and follow this. Thanks for posting this information.

I sent 3T some photos, but have not had any luck posting them here. I keep getting a "file error" message.


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## tka (Jun 11, 2014)

OldChipper said:


> FWIW, I've checked the torque keys against a "real" torque wrench and they seem to be dead-on balls-accurate (obscure "My Cousin Vinnie" reference).


:thumbsup:
As part of an MSA at work we checked 3 torque keys 3 people had with unknown histories vs 4 calibrated production torque wrenches. The 3 torque keys had a tighter distribution and less variance than the calibrated production torque wrenches, and significantly tighter distribution operator-to-operator. All the torque wrenches had less than 7% variation to the set torque so I don't know how accurate you want to be, however.


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

My torque wrenches are certified +/- 3% and correspond quite well with my Ritchey and CDI torque keys.


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## Milest (May 26, 2015)

From 3 T:

Hi Miles,
Where did you buy your handlebar? The best thing for you is to ask directly to your dealer for a replacement part.

Regards

Davide


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## Milest (May 26, 2015)




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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

It looks like the blue (in your case) overlay under compression from the stem and faceplate is getting stretched and elongated into the gap - same appearance as the OP. From the photos alone there's nothing evident that suggests any failure of the composite, just the decoration.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I'll add that Trek had this issue with their female seatpost design on the Madone. They had a sticker under the clearcoat on the mast which would get shmooshed and ugly looking from the seatpost clamp. They eliminated the sticker on more recent models.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I find it odd that the clearcoat/resin hasn't cracked on any of the bars shown here. And how do you know that's a decal under there and not paint? 

I have the stealth colored Ergonova bars and I've changed stems a few times with them, might take a look at it later, but not going to pull it apart just on a hunch. Honestly, I'm pretty sure they were on my bike when I hit a car, then transferred to my new frame. I'd say they're pretty durable. 

As for the max torque listed on the parts, there must be a bit of a safety factor involved. I don't think 3T puts 5.5 N*m on there when the bar will break at 5.7 N*m. 

I'm betting the bars are fine. If you didn't hear a crack, it probably didn't crack.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

ultimobici said:


> A proper dial set torque wrench that is returned to zero after use is all I trust.


Ugh... You should _never_ set a click-type torque wrench to zero, especially for long therm storage. Most wrenches won't even allow you to do that, since their torque ranges begin at some non-zero torque. As for those wrenches that actually "go down to zero", it is the user's responsibility to remember that such wrenches should be stored at low non-zero setting (5, 10 or 20 lb-ft, depending on the range).


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## Milest (May 26, 2015)

Update:

I took my bike the bike shop where I purchased it, and they checked them out. They found a soft spot while tapping on the bar at the distorted area. They are sending them back to 3T.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)




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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

Milest said:


> Update:
> 
> I took my bike the bike shop where I purchased it, and they checked them out. They found a soft spot while tapping on the bar at the distorted area.


Of course they did, there's bubbles in the cosmetic outer layer. But they can't make the call due to liability. I bet the house the bars are structurally fine. If they were mine I'd probably get impatient and cut away the bubble for a closer look. Nonetheless, you'll probably get new bars as a good will thing.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

AndreyT said:


> Ugh... You should _never_ set a click-type torque wrench to zero, especially for long therm storage. Most wrenches won't even allow you to do that, since their torque ranges begin at some non-zero torque. As for those wrenches that actually "go down to zero", it is the user's responsibility to remember that such wrenches should be stored at low non-zero setting (5, 10 or 20 lb-ft, depending on the range).


unless you have a digital torque wrench then you have to remove the battery to prevent the batteries from accidently leaking and ruining the wrench and there is no need to store it with 10 to 20 ft lbs or even 200 or 0 won't hurt it, but in this case concerning a mechanical torque wrench you're right about how to store those type of torque wrenches.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

> A proper dial set torque wrench that is returned to zero after use is all I trust.





> Use a real torque wrench, that zeros after use. Torque keys are for carrying in a saddlebag not for workshops.





> As part of an MSA at work we checked 3 torque keys 3 people had with unknown histories vs 4 calibrated production torque wrenches. The 3 torque keys had a tighter distribution and less variance than the calibrated production torque wrenches





> Ugh... You should _never_ set a click-type torque wrench to zero, especially for long therm storage.


I find the names people use for torque wrenches interesting and confusing. 

I learned (naval nuclear power world) 3 types of torque wrenches: flexible beam, micrometer setting, and dial indicating. Now the rise of torque keys add another type. 

Seems most here use micrometer setting (what I think people also reference as click type). However, those are the least reliable type (as far as keeping calibration). Until you are spending hundreds of dollars and maintaining proper calibration schedules, I pick flexible beam. If I had a few hundred dollars, I'd pick a dial indicating. I trust micrometer setting the least.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> I find the names people use for torque wrenches interesting and confusing.
> 
> I learned (naval nuclear power world) 3 types of torque wrenches: flexible beam, micrometer setting, and dial indicating. Now the rise of torque keys add another type.


There's a fourth now -- digital (electronic).


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Milest said:


> View attachment 306259


Hey, cool, where did you find the blue ones? Those would look sweet on my 2014 R3!!!


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

FWIW and since I said I'd keep people updated, the US 3T distributor is playing deaf, dumb, and blind with my LBS (a VERY large retailer in Boulder). They don't even want to look at the bar. LBS is going to send it to them anyway and has offered to give me a little extra discount on a future purchase if 3T doesn't make good on it. Yet another reason to patronize your LBS!


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Check if the faceplate of the stem is out of round. I had the same thing happen to me with a Easton bar years ago. When assembled the faceplate with no bar...I noticed that the upper part of the faceplate was curving down. There is a topic on Weight Weenies a while back.



thisisatest said:


> i'll reply to your reply of an old reply:
> the 3t face plates start out properly shaped, but are too thin, especially near the "ears" that the bolts go through. the bolts end up trying to bend the ears towards the stem, and the inside edge of the face plate bends into the bar. so it creases the bar.
> this is also why the ti bolts break on these stems- area around the bolt head is no longer flush, it forces the bolt into a bend.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Sumguy1 said:


> I wonder if you can lightly tap the bars with a hex wrench and hear a difference in sound if the clamping area is crushed.


This can work, but it's not a fool proof method for sure.

If you see something like this 3T bar, and do the tap test, I would not ride that thing on anything but a trainer.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

AvantDale said:


> Check if the faceplate of the stem is out of round. I had the same thing happen to me with a Easton bar years ago. When assembled the faceplate with no bar...I noticed that the upper part of the faceplate was curving down. There is a topic on Weight Weenies a while back.


Makes a lot of sense as most people report failure at the heads, but I have seen posts claiming other brand Ti bolts fared perfectly fine.


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## Milest (May 26, 2015)

FWIW - My LBS in Houston gave me a loaner bar and sent mine damaged bar to 3T. I just got word that my replacement bar is ready for me to pick up. I am out of the country for a few months and therefore can't ask who they sent it too, etc. So far I am not aware of any cost to me. The whole replacement took about six weeks.


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## Fondi54 (Oct 26, 2007)

OldChipper said:


> I feel kind of like Captain Obvious here, but just in case, I thought I'd save someone else some expense and aggravation...
> 
> I really don't want to start a new debate about why anyone would want to run carbon bars, but thought I'd pass this along.
> 
> ...


This is my first posting, yes, to an older post, but here's my recent experience. Over the years I have had NO problems at all with 3T Ti stem bolts on any ARX Team stems. One day SNAP, then SNAP a few days later. I had been in a hurry and used a 5nm Bontager torque key. I replaced the Ti bolts and successfully torqued to 5nm with a newer Shimano torque wrench. Then I tested a 5nm Ritchey torque key on the same newly torqued bolts and it released immediately. Then I tested the questionable 5nm Bontrager torque key I had used before. It turned almost a half turn more before I stopped the test, not wanting to snap the bolt. I then tested another identical Bontrager torque key we had lying around. It turned even further! I immediately tossed the Bontrager torque keys. Hope this helps.


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## bushpig (Jun 24, 2006)

Just to keep this alive - these bars are a menace. I have crushed a couple and I am meticulous about the torque settings. And below 5nm, the bars slip - 3T LTD stem and 3T LTD bars. I am moving to Easton after going through three very expensive bars.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Fondi54 said:


> This is my first posting, yes, to an older post, but here's my recent experience. Over the years I have had NO problems at all with 3T Ti stem bolts on any ARX Team stems. One day SNAP, then SNAP a few days later. I had been in a hurry and used a 5nm Bontager torque key. I replaced the Ti bolts and successfully torqued to 5nm with a newer Shimano torque wrench. Then I tested a 5nm Ritchey torque key on the same newly torqued bolts and it released immediately. Then I tested the questionable 5nm Bontrager torque key I had used before. It turned almost a half turn more before I stopped the test, not wanting to snap the bolt. I then tested another identical Bontrager torque key we had lying around. It turned even further! I immediately tossed the Bontrager torque keys. Hope this helps.


I've become suspect of any fixed torque keys/wrenches. I've head the opposite experience. The Bontrager one seems OK, but I've more recently found that the Ritchey 5nM key "clicks" at WAAAAY over 5nm. So that was probably my problem. Since this experience, I've only been using the Park adjustable torque wrench and haven't had any more problems. Also FWIW with friction paste, my bars don't slip at 4nM. As always, YMMV.


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