# Back Wheel Lifting During Sprint



## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

I've had this happen before, and it happened again last night during a crit. Last night specifically I was out of the saddle in the drops doing about 800 watts for 5 seconds. During those 5 seconds at the top of every pedal stroke I could very noticeably feel the back wheel lifting off the ground. Because this was happening at the top of every pedal stroke, the back end felt like it was in the air literally half of the time. I figure this is due to pulling up on the pedal stroke, but it feels completely natural for me to do this. At the same time though, I was holding back because it did not feel safe. While seated this never happens, naturally.

Is this uncommon? Should I be concerned? Anyone else have this happen? I don't think I could output as much power if neglected the upstroke and just mashed, I'm used to pedaling more evenly in a circle.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Your too far forward shift your weight back. Practice.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Thanks I'll give that a try and see if it helps. Right now just thinking about it I can't really visualize being farther back on the bike and being able to pedal effectively, but I will try it.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

stop pulling up...before you crash or cause one. when you're out of the saddle concentrate on *pushing down*...only. when you're back on the saddle you can think more about pushing forward/pulling back (never up...never).


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> stop pulling up...before you crash or cause one. when you're out of the saddle concentrate on *pushing down*...only. when you're back on the saddle you can think more about pushing forward/pulling back (never up...never).


I have tried mashing (only pushing down and a little forward) when out of the saddle, not necessarily sprinting but just in general, and my power drops all across the board. Not sure if this is because I'm simply not accustomed to the mashing technique, or my quads are weak relative to other cyclists. I will give the mashing technique more consideration though.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Pulling up*



Cableguy said:


> I have tried mashing (only pushing down and a little forward) when out of the saddle, not necessarily sprinting but just in general, and my power drops all across the board. Not sure if this is because I'm simply not accustomed to the mashing technique, or my quads are weak relative to other cyclists. I will give the mashing technique more consideration though.


It's not a matter of mashing - it is a matter of pushing down. Trying to pull up while out of the saddle at full power is a recipe for disaster and that is what you are experiencing. Top sprinters do NOT do this.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Mashing...pedaling circles...how over thought can this get? My theory is that when I think about being smooth and powerful from the hips it feels a bit more "circular" however, there is a distinct and increased pressure on the ball of each foot. Meaning, circular pedaling equates to more pressure pushing down. Pedaling from the hips, while ideal, simply means engaging more muscles, power increases in the short term but not sustainable at higher levels in the long term (for me).

Fwiw, thinking about pedaling is pretty much the last thing I think about when I hop on the bike. If your wheel is routinely skipping out then maybe your fit/sizing is messed up. Bike too small perhaps...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

woodys737 said:


> Mashing...pedaling circles...how over thought can this get? My theory is that when I think about being smooth and powerful from the hips it feels a bit more "circular" however, there is a distinct and increased pressure on the ball of each foot. Meaning, circular pedaling equates to more pressure pushing down. Pedaling from the hips, while ideal, simply means engaging more muscles, power increases in the short term but not sustainable at higher levels in the long term (for me).
> 
> Fwiw, thinking about pedaling is pretty much the last thing I think about when I hop on the bike. If your wheel is routinely skipping out then maybe your fit/sizing is messed up. Bike too small perhaps...


pretty sure he's just doing it wrong. if you pull on the pedals, the back wheel will come up. if you push on the pedals, it won't. there's probably a little bit of the 'getting too far over the front of the bike' too.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I'd go with being too far forward, but I'm more surprised anyone remembers anything during a sprint. Do I pull up during a sprint? No clue.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

I agree that you should shift your weight back and dismiss any notion of 'pulling up' during a sprint.


and unless you weigh <120lb, 800w is way less power than you should be generating in an all-out effort.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Gotta pull to generate max power. Pulling with the rear leg provides reaction (in addition to your weight) to pushing with the front leg. If you don't pull with your rear leg then the only additional reaction you get is pulling with your arms, which does not work and is wasted effort. Pulling with your arms also necessitated shifting forward on the bike which unweights the rear wheel. Mtbrs know this from trying to climb very steep hills. 

Try comparing your absolute max power being clipped in to being not clipped in with flat pedals. 

If the rear wheel is slipping or lifting, it can only be because you're weight is too far forward.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

looigi said:


> *Gotta pull to generate max power*. Pulling with the rear leg provides reaction (in addition to your weight) to pushing with the front leg. If you don't pull with your rear leg then the only additional reaction you get is *pulling with your arms, which does not work and is wasted effort.* Pulling with your arms also necessitated shifting forward on the bike which unweights the rear wheel. Mtbrs know this from trying to climb very steep hills.
> 
> Try comparing your absolute max power being clipped in to being not clipped in with flat pedals.
> 
> If the rear wheel is slipping or lifting, it can only be because you're weight is too far forward.


wrong, sorry. if pulling w/ your arms is wasted effort please explain why handlebars/stems have been made stiffer and stiffer every year. how would you rock the bike side to side (to maximize power) if you didn't use your arms? 
and i will never agree that it's a good idea to actually pull on the pedals when standing in a sprint. forget about that...really.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> wrong, sorry. if pulling w/ your arms is wasted effort please explain why handlebars/stems have been made stiffer and stiffer every year. how would you rock the bike side to side (to maximize power) if you didn't use your arms?
> and i will never agree that it's a good idea to actually pull on the pedals when standing in a sprint. forget about that...really.


Hamstrings are big powerful muscles compared to biceps, especially the atrophied biceps of pro cyclists. Plus they turn the crank, not push against very stiff immovable bars. 

Check the last paragraph of this article: Road Bike Pedaling Technique: Why an Efficient Pedal Stroke Makes You a Better Rider | Suite101.com

"While some well-intentioned but misleading articles may advise novice cyclists to pull up on the pedals in the recovery phase of your pedal stroke (between 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock), in fact elite cyclists draw very little power from pulling up.* Only sprinters and racing hill climbers derive power from pulling up on the pedals when they are pedaling at maximal effort.*"


We'll have to agree to disagree... really.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

I think my quads are relatively weak, and what my body naturally wants to do to maximize power turns out to be bad form especially when out of the saddle. I've read that your quads should be able to lift around 50% more weight than your hamstrings, but it is basically the other way around for me... at the gym I do 2x50 leg curls (hamstrings) at ~70lbs, but for leg extensions (quads) can only do 2x50 at ~40 lbs.



JustTooBig said:


> and unless you weigh <120lb, 800w is way less power than you should be generating in an all-out effort.


I agree that I *should* be able to put out more max power. I weigh 160 and the highest 1 sec effort I've seen was *in the saddle* at just below 1000watts. On most power to weight ratio charts I'm near "Untrained" for 5 sec power, but for efforts above 5 min I'm near Cat 2. 



spade2you said:


> I'd go with being too far forward, but I'm more surprised anyone remembers anything during a sprint. Do I pull up during a sprint? No clue.


I don't think about how I will pedal beforehand, I just do whatever feels best to maximize power. But at the same time I'm aware of what I'm doing while in the act and I probably pull up almost as much as I push down when doing anything out of the saddle above 500 watts.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

looigi said:


> Hamstrings are big powerful muscles compared to biceps, especially the atrophied biceps of pro cyclists. Plus they turn the crank, not push against very stiff immovable bars. We'll have to agree to disagree... really.


Have to agree with cxwrench here. When you practice standing starts for the track (which is great for building explosive power for sprints btw) you focus on pulling on the bars no focus is placed on pulling up on the cranks.

I won't say there is no advantage to pulling up with the rear leg but its not as much as you get from countering the down force of the forward leg by pulling on the bars.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

I had a coach who showed me the following:
-On the jump, push and pull on the pedals
-Try to keep handlebar, as level as possible (try to minimize rocking), which inherently forces a lot of upper body use

it seems to work for me. I get more power this way per the PT. But whatever form you choose, and in every case:
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!! (this is one cycling skill that really improves with practice). This is something I do once a week, all year round. 10-20s, full bore, easy recovery afterwards. 

FYI, my sprint is getting a little weaker every year with age. At 39 years old, 1310W peak; this year (45 yrs old) haven't broken 1180. :-(


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

Just curious...when people say DON'T pull up, do they mean don't PULL UP OR don't FOCUS on pulling up? 

I ask this because from the other thread about sprinting, I payed close attention to my sprint on the local "Worlds" sprint a few weeks back. Before this I just sprinted. I never really thought about technique because I could always sprint with the guys in the higher categories and people told me I was a good sprinter. 

When I focused on what I was doing, I noticed that I was indeed pulling up on the pedals as well as pushing down when I sprinted. 

I too have had the problem of my back wheel coming up in a sprint, but nearly as much as described here, and this was fixed with shifting my weight backward.

Interesting to read the different thoughts on this.


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## jmal (Jun 2, 2012)

looigi said:


> Gotta pull to generate max power. Pulling with the rear leg provides reaction (in addition to your weight) to pushing with the front leg. If you don't pull with your rear leg then the only additional reaction you get is pulling with your arms, which does not work and is wasted effort. Pulling with your arms also necessitated shifting forward on the bike which unweights the rear wheel. Mtbrs know this from trying to climb very steep hills.
> 
> Try comparing your absolute max power being clipped in to being not clipped in with flat pedals.
> 
> If the rear wheel is slipping or lifting, it can only be because you're weight is too far forward.


I don't think the MTB comparison is fair, but I pull quite a bit with my arms on steep hills while mountain biking, especially while seated. You need some oppositional force to stabilize your upper body or else your legs have nothing to exert power against. As for the larger question here, believe that the OP may be too far forward, but is most certainly pulling up on the pedals and creating a dangerous situation. Look at the top sprinters. They are pretty far forward in the sprint position, but their rear wheels remain on the ground. I don't think a MTB style out of the saddle squat over the rear wheel is the proper answer. That only makes sense while trying to maintain traction for out of saddle climbing on dirt.


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## royta (May 24, 2008)

I'm trying to learn here, so please don't take this the wrong way. Why is it bad to pull up with one leg while pushing with the other? What exactly is the recipe for disaster?


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

Good discussion, but i think we can demonstrate the cause -

You generate far more power utilizing your body mass to push down through the pedal vs pulling upwards. If the loss of tration was due to power, you would loose traction while pushing down, not pulling up.

While seated, push the pedal down as hard as you can and pull up as hard as you can. Which produces a loss of traction? Neither of course. Why?

Stand on your pedals and hop/lift your bike as if you were crossing RR tracks. You can fairly easily "loose traction" while standing still and generating no power at all.

What's happening while climbing and sprinting and pulling up on a padal is that unless you maintian the same relitive vertical body position you're unweighing your bike, which creates a loss of friction/traction. Any capable sprinter, either runner or biker, maintains a very consistant head and body position relative to the ground, leaving their legs to generate maximum power throughout the pedal stroke, All you're doing is lifting your body as your raise your leg.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

royta said:


> I'm trying to learn here, so please don't take this the wrong way. Why is it bad to pull up with one leg while pushing with the other? What exactly is the recipe for disaster?


most people that actually think they're 'pulling up' are in reality pulling up very little and forward somewhat more. if they're doing this they're also probably leaning too far forward and this leads to the rear tires leaving the ground. as you can imagine, this can lead to all sorts of spastic maneuvers. 
if you're pulling up, you're not pushing down as hard as you can. you will not be faster by pulling up. i know some people think pro sprinters pull up...they don't. i've asked.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I have this problem a lot as well. One time going around a sharp corner and into a sprint, I stood up to start mashing and the first or second stroke of the pedals sent my rear tire about a foot to the left because it had lifted while still in the turn. Scared the **** out of me. 

It also happens during steep climbs when I'm putting down a lot of power (no power meter, but I have quite strong legs from soccer). I try to keep my weight back but when I stand up, I think having the bars down low automatically makes me come forward on the bike. I definitely pull hard on the handlebars, but I can feel myself inherently pulling up on the pedals as much as I'm pushing down. 

I'll have to somehow practice only pushing down on the pedals and not so much pulling up. On steep climbs, my rear wheel is coming off the ground almost every stroke and killing my speed. But I thougth the whole point of clip-in pedals is so you can do both?


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Interesting. I am a 52 year old Cat3. 5'11, 170lbs. 4th season racing. In sprint intervals I have hit 1430watts and can hold 1150-1200 for 10-15 seconds. My rear wheel used to pop up but I have moved my body back a little ways and it rarely if ever pops up now. That said, I have a relatively strong upper body for a cyclist and I pull very hard on my bars to drive down on my pedal stroke. In fact I get bruises on the inside of my wrists when I sprint super hard. 

My coach is a nationally ranked track rider and as I recall he said pulling on the bars is fine and the best way to focus your full power though the pedal stroke.

I will double check but my sprint is strong and is always in control.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dcorn said:


> I have this problem a lot as well. One time going around a sharp corner and into a sprint, I stood up to start mashing and the first or second stroke of the pedals sent my rear tire about a foot to the left because it had lifted while still in the turn. Scared the **** out of me.
> 
> It also happens during steep climbs when I'm putting down a lot of power (no power meter, but I have quite strong legs from soccer). I try to keep my weight back but when I stand up, I think having the bars down low automatically makes me come forward on the bike. I definitely pull hard on the handlebars, but I can feel myself inherently pulling up on the pedals as much as I'm pushing down.
> 
> I'll have to somehow practice only pushing down on the pedals and not so much pulling up. On steep climbs, my rear wheel is coming off the ground almost every stroke and killing my speed. *But I thougth the whole point of clip-in pedals is so you can do both?*


the power stroke is different depending on whether you're seated or standing. when i'm standing, what i 'feel' is the pedal just after it comes over the top...and then all the way down. when seated, it's different. then i will feel the pedal from just slightly below the top, to all the way through the bottom. never actually pulling up. you're much stronger pushing forward/down and pulling back than actually pulling up. clipless pedals help w/ all of this.



Sonomasnap said:


> Interesting. I am a 52 year old Cat3. 5'11, 170lbs. 4th season racing. In sprint intervals I have hit 1430watts and can hold 1150-1200 for 10-15 seconds. My rear wheel used to pop up but I have moved my body back a little ways and it rarely if ever pops up now. That said, I have a relatively strong upper body for a cyclist and I pull very hard on my bars to drive down on my pedal stroke. In fact I get bruises on the inside of my wrists when I sprint super hard.
> 
> My coach is a nationally ranked track rider and as I recall he said *pulling on the bars is fine and the best way to focus your full power though the pedal stroke.*
> 
> I will double check but my sprint is strong and is always in control.


absolutely in agreement w/ this. whomever said you won't get any help pulling on the bars is incorrect.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

Sonomasnap said:


> Interesting. I am a 52 year old Cat3. 5'11, 170lbs. 4th season racing. In sprint intervals I have hit 1430watts and can hold 1150-1200 for 10-15 seconds. My rear wheel used to pop up but I have moved my body back a little ways and it rarely if ever pops up now. That said, I have a relatively strong upper body for a cyclist and I pull very hard on my bars to drive down on my pedal stroke. In fact I get bruises on the inside of my wrists when I sprint super hard.
> 
> My coach is a nationally ranked track rider and as I recall he said pulling on the bars is fine and the best way to focus your full power though the pedal stroke.


We're talking about pulling up on the pedals with your feet, not pulling up on the bars with your hands. Like when accelerating up a steep hill, I can actually feel myself pulling up and forward on the pedals to the point where the bottom of my foot is no longer in contact with the insole of my shoe


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

looigi said:


> Hamstrings are big powerful muscles compared to biceps, especially the atrophied biceps of pro cyclists. Plus they turn the crank, not push against very stiff immovable bars.
> 
> Check the last paragraph of this article: Road Bike Pedaling Technique: Why an Efficient Pedal Stroke Makes You a Better Rider | Suite101.com
> 
> ...


THAT's the best source of info you have??? 

Do a couple minutes of research on that author you're quoting. BA in language studies, she's an writer and editor who does triathlons. No formal education or training in exercise science, kinesiology, human performance, or any other related science. She went to some seminars and is a non-certified personal trainer. She reads other people's articles on the internet and distills them into her own writing. 

Coggan, one of the preeminent researchers in power related to cycling performance, has conflicting views than those of your 'expert'


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dcorn said:


> We're talking about pulling up on the pedals with your feet, not pulling up on the bars with your hands. Like when accelerating up a steep hill, I can actually feel myself pulling up and forward on the pedals to the point where the bottom of my foot is no longer in contact with the insole of my shoe


that is correct, the original point of the thread was to discuss pulling up on the pedals. at some point we added 'pulling on the bars' to 'pushing on the pedals' as a way to maximize power. one poster thought that pulling on the bars was a waste of energy, and some of us had a differing view.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

I concentrated a little more on pushing down on the pedals during my ride last night. Didn't experience any wheel hop this time, although I was pretty fatigued at the time lol. I think that actually has something to do with the issue though, like as my legs get tired from pushing down hard on the pedals, I decide to use different leg muscles and pull up on the pedals instead.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Since posting last I haven't done an all out sprint while out of the saddle, I much prefer sprinting in the saddle... but I have done several hard efforts out of the saddle, and during those I have focused on staying farther back over the bike with more emphasis on the downstroke. Doing so has definitely helped to keep the back wheel on the ground more. Not sure what sort of impact it has had on my performance, too soon to say... but if it's slowing me down I don't think it's by a whole lot.


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## Sonomasnap (Feb 10, 2010)

Cableguy said:


> Since posting last I haven't done an all out sprint while out of the saddle, I much prefer sprinting in the saddle...


You may be going hard and fast but you are not sprinting if you are in the saddle.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

FWIW:

The only thing I'm consciously aware of when I'm out of the saddle sprinting to the top of a hill is my pedal stroke from the 11 o'clock position down to the 5 o'clock position. Of course; This happens as long as I'm in the proper gear (Not too difficult; not too easy). 

And if I can remember, I purposely droop my shoulders to help counter me shrugging. I've found I shrug way too often and way too long.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Sonomasnap said:


> You may be going hard and fast but you are not sprinting if you are in the saddle.


I without a doubt go faster if I "sprint" in the saddle than out of the saddle... I also generate more max power in the saddle too strangely enough. My sprint isn't as terrible as it seems because I'm able to tuck down while seated. I've over taken people on a flat terrain who were doing 1200-1300w, and when I tell them how little I was doing they think I'm joking. I must just really suck out of the saddle. 

From a rested state I have tried to reach a new max power many times out of the saddle, and once I get to about 900w I physically feel like there's nothing more I can do. Once I'm putting all my body weight into the down stroke and pushing off (downwards) on the pedals I quickly max out and have to significantly pull up to squeeze out more power, which tends to lift the back wheel if the terrain isn't uphill.


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## EricN (Apr 9, 2009)

Yeah but you are either going to get dropped or have to get out of the saddle to counter a hard move.

How much saddle setback do you have? 

130 stem?


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

EricN said:


> Yeah but you are either going to get dropped or have to get out of the saddle to counter a hard move.
> 
> How much saddle setback do you have?
> 
> 130 stem?


Seat post has no set back, saddle is at a neutral fore and aft position based on the rail markings. I've been riding this year with a 130 stem, but just yesterday changed to a 110 against my fitter's recommendation and I can already tell it fits me better. Handlebars have a 75mm reach. Frame is a 58cm Cannondale.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Cableguy said:


> Seat post has no set back, saddle is at a neutral fore and aft position based on the rail markings. I've been riding this year with a 130 stem, but just yesterday changed to a 110 against my fitter's recommendation and I can already tell it fits me better. Handlebars have a 75mm reach. Frame is a 58cm Cannondale.


Seat set back in relation to the BB is what I think he was asking. Not the set back of the actual seat post. Anyways, zero set back post with 110 stem seems like the bike is too large for you. 

The following link has some good information in it that might help: http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/


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