# Lance must have taught Michael Phelps how to dope effectively



## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

By using the logic I see prevelant on this forum over the last couple of years Michael Phelps must be doping somehow without being caught. I mean, come on, he is just too dominant, even more so than Armstrong was in cycling. It appears that he is super human, read doper, with some of the extraterrestrial efforts he has put forth so far in the Olympics. The fact that other swimmers in the past have been caught doping and he is breaking their times with new world records with each event is darn near conclusive. The similarities are uncanny. Phelps signed up for extra blood testing and Armstrong was one of the most tested cyclists ever yet they both always pass. This proves guilt without a shadow of doubt. Sure there are some dark,underground rumblings of Armstrong testing positive on some old blood samples but still, the circumstances are similar. The fact that they are both successful Americans in their respective sports seals the deal. I mean come on, who can stand a successful American? Certainly not a Frenchman or even a cynical America hating U.S. citizen for that matter. I could go further but I will choose to leave political leanings out of this unlike a great many on this "cycling forum".

I hope all of you can detect my sarcasm in this post. I just get tired of so many people jumping on the bandwagon of convicting Armstrong of doping and discrediting all of his achievements without any solid proof. I dont want to hear your pseudo-proof and inuendo in convicting him. Who knows maybe he did, but until I see absolute proof or an admission of guilt then I will continue to admire his accomplishments on the bike. 

Oh yeah, go Micheal Phelps, kick their butts.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

this thread will be moved in 3...2...1....


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## Marek (Feb 17, 2004)

he voluntered to be automatically super tested for the games. he knew he was going to have a few good swims. did lance intro him to Dr F then..?


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

tellico climber said:


> Oh yeah, go Micheal Phelps, kick their butts.


You obviously meant to post this to General on SwimSuitReview.com

I like pie, but it gets soggy in the pool.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

you guys do such a great job of proving my point.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Last time I checked Lance is retired. Maybe as a collective we should retire all Lance doped related threads and move on with our lives.


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## ToF (Jan 18, 2008)

Fredke said:


> You obviously meant to post this to General on SwimSuitReview.com
> 
> I like pie, but it gets soggy in the pool.



Hey there's no swimsuitreview.com! I was excited to check out the PG forum- I feel cheated.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Marek said:


> he voluntered to be automatically super tested for the games. he knew he was going to have a few good swims. did lance intro him to Dr F then..?


As long as this is the case:

"The UCI is one of just four federations the International Olympic Committee (IOC) is allowing to perform blood screenings on competitors at the Olympic Games in Beijing. The others are the International Association of Athletics Federations, the International Rowing Federation and the International Modern Pentathlon Union."

Any swimmer could presumably get a huge boost by blood doping, which is probably what Lance and most of the other top riders were doing once the EPO test became available if not before.

If you're using drugs or techniques that can't be detected via testing, there is essentially no risk from being tested and no assurances. I don't believe there is a test for HgH yet, and who knows if there is another BALCO out there providing some designer steroid, etc.


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## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

godot said:


> Last time I checked Lance is retired. Maybe as a collective we should retire all Lance doped related threads and move on with our lives.


If people stopped posting about Lance then their lives would shriveling up to less than what it is now.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

jupiterrn said:


> If people stopped posting about Lance then their lives would shriveling up to less than what it is now.


as long as he's still competing, especially in UCI sanctioned events, he's neither retired nor yesterday's news. If he follows in the footsteps of charlie gaul and goes to live a hermetic life of solitude in the woods then he deserves to be left the hell alone-he ain't doing that.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Yesterday's news? When was the last time anything new came out to either convict or acquit Lance?

It's all hearsay and people tend to read/believe statements that come out to support their point of view.

Until something concrete comes out (which is probably not going to happen) these posts will either be "yes he did/no he didn't", "the team handball player from BurkaBurkaStan just put in an amazing performance, therefore Lance doped", or "Michael Phelps didn't wave to me when I saw him on the MUT therefore both he and Lance doped (and they're worse wankers than Cadel Evans)"

There's nothing new out there to add to the argument, and until there is, LET IT GO.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

godot said:


> Yesterday's news? When was the last time anything new came out to either convict or acquit Lance?
> 
> It's all hearsay and people tend to read/believe statements that come out to support their point of view.
> 
> ...



Not a flame friend and this is not directed to you.... but I will go all out here......because I am sick ad tired of people talking about things that they have no clue about....no clue.

The man was caught with the riders favorite corticoid in his blood.....triamcinolone!!!!
*Most people do not understand that whole incident because they do not know the power of corticoids and that they are heavily used....and they "bought" the complete rubbish from Lance and company regarding the saddle cream. *It was smart though....because in those days a rider would be hrd pressed to be busted for something that could be used for "medical reasons" like a saddle cream AS LONG AS a prescription could be found. 

*Triamcinolone is the corticoid of choice(second is dexamethazone).....I know ...I have used it many times. It is very powerful and in fact I felt that it gave me the second best boost in performance, behind a high crit.*

It is taken, by IM injection, 48 hours out from a race or more frequently in stage races. It works by acting as an anti-inflammatory at the legs(even though it goes systemically). Timing of the dosing is critical because if done improperly it can "block you". *Done right it is UNREAL....your legs feel like steel rods.....you can hammer a bigger gear longer...and day to day recovery is through the roof!*

However, if used too frequently they can shut down your own cortisol production and that requires a taper off the drug or you are in serious trouble. If used too often it is very catabolic and it will also suck bone out of you and ruin joints.
It is more dangerous for the riders health than epo...BY FAR...as long as you know what you are doing with epo. Dr. Dope Ferrari was perfectly correct....epo is n more dangerous than 10 glasses of orange juice....but he forgot to add the IF you know what you are doing part...Gee now I am off on a tangent.

SO...there you have it...a TRUE LESSON in what "Lance" had in his blood!


*WE HAS BUSTED.....man would like like to be the one to interview "Lance".*


*Even now....do you know how many riders in the last tour had a TUE for corticoids(for their sore knees) HA! What a joke!*

Some day his former team mates will spill the beans as to what really went on behind the doors of the best doping program know to man.....it might take 10- 20-30 years but it WILL come out.

Cheers


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Realgains said:


> *Even now....do you know how many riders in the last tour had a TUE for corticoids(for their sore knees) HA! What a joke!*


I give up. How many, exactly?


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

godot said:


> ....
> LET IT GO.


You should politely ask whoever it is that's forcing you to read internet forum threads pertaining to Lance™ to stop.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> I give up. How many, exactly?


76 of the 180 riders tested before the start of the Tour reported having a TUE

http://www.afld.fr/docs/actu60_Bilandescon...esduTDF2008.pdf

at least 6, perhaps more, were for glucocorticoid. 7 if you count Casper forgetting to renew his expired one.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

Damn it Eddy Mercyx....what ever got into you to go out of your way to ask Ferrari to take on arrogant Lance. Why didn't you ask him to take on the nice fellow with the bakers nose?(Landis) 

Could it have been $$$$

Hmmm

We'll never know.


Cheers


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

blackhat said:


> You should politely ask whoever it is that's forcing you to read internet forum threads pertaining to Lance™ to stop.



Black...you have a way with words that I envy. 

LOL Beavis laugh


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

blackhat said:


> You should politely ask whoever it is that's forcing you to read internet forum threads pertaining to Lance™ to stop.


Yep I deserved that, well done (not being sarcastic, good point).


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> 76 of the 180 riders tested before the start of the Tour reported having a TUE
> 
> http://www.afld.fr/docs/actu60_Bilandescon...esduTDF2008.pdf
> 
> at least 6, perhaps more, were for glucocorticoid. 7 if you count Casper forgetting to renew his expired one.


That link doesn't work for me, but six out of 180 is 3%, which is not that many. Certainly it doesn't warrant a bold type exclamation from Realgains. He made it sound like it was a significant figure, like 25% or more.

Edit: Here is a link that works: http://www.afld.fr/docs/actu60_BilandescontrolesduTDF2008.pdf


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

mohair_chair said:


> That link doesn't work for me, but six out of 180 is 3%, which is not that many. Certainly it doesn't warrant a bold type exclamation from Realgains. He made it sound like it was a significant figure, like 25% or more.
> 
> Edit: Here is a link that works: http://www.afld.fr/docs/actu60_BilandescontrolesduTDF2008.pdf



7 is a lot for these very powerful drugs Mohair.....1 or 2 is not. The fact the 7 got TUE's is an indication that many many more were on the stuff.....actually nowadays ACTH(synthacten) is used more because it cannot be tested for. This stuff is a cortisol releasing hormone that makes your adrenals put out A LOT of cortisol within 30 minutes. I did this one too and it has been used since the 70's...*but I preferred the Gold standard that Lance used.....Triamcinolone....*but Dexa was a close second


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Realgains said:


> The fact the 7 got TUE's is an indication that many many more were on the stuff


Really? What do you base that statement on?


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> That link doesn't work for me, but six out of 180 is 3%, which is not that many. Certainly it doesn't warrant a bold type exclamation from Realgains. He made it sound like it was a significant figure, like 25% or more.


You are only assuming that only 6 out of 180 that had a TUE for Cortisone. 7 tested positive during the Tour for Cortisone. 6 had a TUE, one had an expired one. It is possible that others had a TUE for Cortisone yet were either not tested after the initial testing of all riders or when they were tested the Cortisone had already passed from their body thus did not test postive.

You can split hairs if you like but it is hard to say that 76 TUE's out of 180 is not a significant amount.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> You are only assuming that only 6 out of 180 that had a TUE for Cortisone. 7 tested positive during the Tour for Cortisone. 6 had a TUE, one had an expired one. It is possible that others had a TUE for Cortisone yet were either not tested after the initial testing of all riders or when they were tested the Cortisone had already passed from their body thus did not test postive.
> 
> You can split hairs if you like but it is hard to say that 76 TUE's out of 180 is not a significant amount.


So when I asked exactly how many riders had TUEs for cortisone, the answer is: at least six, probably seven, but really, <u>we don't know</u>. Realgains made it sound like he knew the answer. Apparently not.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> So when I asked exactly how many riders had TUEs for cortisone, the answer is: at least six, probably seven, but really, <u>we don't know</u>. Realgains made it sound like he knew the answer. Apparently not.


Your point is?

Nothing as usual...


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

No matter what you would like to say, I still believe Phelp's is doping. An amazing performance is one thing, breaking the record in every event you compete (especially when all the other WORLDS BEST ATHLETES are still behind the record line)...

Too fishy for me.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

bigpinkt said:


> Your point is?
> 
> Nothing as usual...


Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary by now, so I'll spell it out for you:

1. Realgains strongly suggested he knew how many TDF riders had TUEs for cortisone.
2. I asked him how many, exactly.
3. You tried to help, provided a link to some numbers, claimed great significance, but didn't answer my question.
4. Realgains backed off and now claims that 7 TUEs is indicative of a lot more riders on Cortisone. (I asked him to back that up.)
5. My conclusion: The answer is...neither you nor Realgains knows.
6. You got confused. (Not a surprise)

My point is that despite a lot of swagger, blustering and claims of insider knowledge, neither you nor Realgains has any clue what the hell you are talking about. You throw a lot of lingo out there, you throw some numbers around, but it's all sound and fury signifying nothing. And I'm going to call you on it every time. Funny how you guys can never back it up, but you're really quick at changing the subject.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

tellico climber said:


> By using the logic I see prevelant on this forum over the last couple of years Michael Phelps must be doping somehow without being caught. I mean, come on, he is just too dominant, even more so than Armstrong was in cycling. It appears that he is super human, read doper, with some of the extraterrestrial efforts he has put forth so far in the Olympics. The fact that other swimmers in the past have been caught doping and he is breaking their times with new world records with each event is darn near conclusive. The similarities are uncanny. Phelps signed up for extra blood testing and Armstrong was one of the most tested cyclists ever yet they both always pass. This proves guilt without a shadow of doubt. Sure there are some dark,underground rumblings of Armstrong testing positive on some old blood samples but still, the circumstances are similar. The fact that they are both successful Americans in their respective sports seals the deal. I mean come on, who can stand a successful American? Certainly not a Frenchman or even a cynical America hating U.S. citizen for that matter. I could go further but I will choose to leave political leanings out of this unlike a great many on this "cycling forum".
> 
> I hope all of you can detect my sarcasm in this post. I just get tired of so many people jumping on the bandwagon of convicting Armstrong of doping and discrediting all of his achievements without any solid proof. I dont want to hear your pseudo-proof and inuendo in convicting him. Who knows maybe he did, but until I see absolute proof or an admission of guilt then I will continue to admire his accomplishments on the bike.
> 
> Oh yeah, go Micheal Phelps, kick their butts.


I hope you understand that the only reason I'm not winning all athletic competition is because of doping. Nobody could possible beat me if they weren't doping. 

When it comes to games like Chess, these guys all have secret communication equipment implanted in their asses. If not for that, nobody could beat me. 

I feel so much better now that I've figured out why I lose and, as you can see, so do most of my fellow posters on this forum.


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary by now, so I'll spell it out for you:
> 
> 1. Realgains strongly suggested he knew how many TDF riders had TUEs for cortisone.
> 2. I asked him how many, exactly.
> ...


You are wasting so much time and energy trying to deflect from what the real issue is. While you may think that at least 7 riders using Cortisone and 76 riders having TUE are not significant most do not share your opinion. You can continue to split hairs and ignore the issue or perhaps you could try to have a constructive dialog? 



mohair_chair said:


> My point is that despite a lot of swagger, blustering and claims of insider knowledge, neither you nor Realgains has any clue what the hell you are talking about. You throw a lot of lingo out there, you throw some numbers around, but it's all sound and fury signifying nothing. And I'm going to call you on it every time. Funny how you guys can never back it up, but you're really quick at changing the subject.


Please keep "Calling us on it every time" you only succeed in looking foolish but you may end up on the cover of this mag.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

mohair_chair said:


> Your lack of reading comprehension is legendary by now, so I'll spell it out for you:
> 
> 1. Realgains strongly suggested he knew how many TDF riders had TUEs for cortisone.
> 2. I asked him how many, exactly.
> ...




Mohair I will back it up with my own experience. If 6 or 7 have TUES, which is very high for such powerful drugs....then there are many many more that are using....that has been my experience. When I was racing EVERYONE used them...every single rider Mohair. I am sure it is down now but ACTH use is certainly up, according to a good buddy that still races UCI...because there is no test.

Mohair, why do you continue being so defensive? It seems that you are always trying to save the pro's ass.

If you don't believe what I say then believe what class act Jacques Anquetil said...
"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope"

****, even Lances own doctor told it correctly....why don't you believe him? What did he have to gain by saying these things?....he was just being honest.
"Everybody dopes. Good guys, like Tyler, dope... and bad guys, Like Lance, dope" there are plenty of good people who dope."
Prentice Stephan, Ex USPS Team doctor, current Slipstream doctor.


Lance was caught with the gold standard corticoid. All the riders laughed( like Beavis) when he pulled off the saddle cream stunt.

Just because a rider has not been "officially" busted doesn't mean that he wasn't on everything but the kitchen sink. 
Simply looking at Lance's Alp d'Huez time....very close to Pantani that was tested with a super high crit, is clear proof. Lance was 25 pounds heavier than a super talented and super jacked climber. Lance would need to be putting out significantly greater power to do this.....it's not possible mohair...not with a VO2 max of 82(and it dropped by 2004 in the off season).

Mohair, you could take the biggest talent ever(which was not Lance) and a doped up Pantani would drop that rider in that climb within 8 minutes without attacking....the clean rider would be drafting at VO2 max and you can only hold that for about 8 minutes.

You keep defending these guys because part of you thinks that it IS possible to win, when Lance won, clean. You think this way because this is what Lance wants you to think...he seems so sincere...he really does. The truth is he is a bald faced lier, that doesn't have the class or guts to admit his doping like Anquetil and Riis did. At the least he should have just shut his damn mouth and said "no comment" like der kaiser Ullrich.
He should have shut up...for the money I guess...and then admitted it after retirement by repeating Anquetil statement.....then I would respect the guy.

*What makes him the worst by far is his utter crap that he spews to the believing public...that you too can do it clean....that he came back from being very ill to accomplishing his dreams CLEAN....the "miracle" he spews about has CLEAN as an integral part. THAT, is what REALLY pisses me off.*

Some day his old team mates from Postal and Disco will spill the beans...it might take 20 years but it will come out in time.....this will destroy Lance. 

Cheers


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

As usual, you go off on what you think you hear and what you want to hear, and not what I said. I never said anything about 76 riders having TUE are not being significant. That's you putting words in my mouth again. You do it all the time, and it mystifies me. I said 6 of 180 riders, or 3%, was hardly worth the bold type that Realgains used to indicate it was a major deal.

So, tough guy, all I wanted to know was how many riders had TUEs for cortisone. Realgains put it out there, and I wanted to know. I still don't know the answer, and neither do you. We know it could be 6, or 7, or it could be more. But the bottom line is that WE DON'T KNOW.

If you want to have a constructive dialog, stop claiming you know stuff that you don't know. And try reading what I actually write, not what you wish I had written. You have a real problem with that.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

no, what makes the Lance case so hard is that he's one of the few athletes that transcend sports - cancer survivors look to his story for inspiration and he's gladly accepted the mantle of the survivor, who comes back with a stronger resolve and supposedly shows that through sheer willpower it's possible to conquer the odds. Personally, I don't know how much utility there is in tearing down that myth...


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> no, what makes the Lance case so hard is that he's one of the few athletes that transcend sports - cancer survivors look to his story for inspiration and he's gladly accepted the mantle of the survivor, who comes back with a stronger resolve and supposedly shows that through sheer willpower it's possible to conquer the odds. Personally, I don't know how much utility there is in tearing down that myth...




As I mentioned in my last post...the "Miracle" was doped... not clean. It's a false miracle.
It was NOT though shear will power and strong resolve alone that he accomplished his goals after being sick. A critical component was Ferarri and doping BIG TIME and if it was not for that he would have never won one single tour and if totally clean he might not have ever finished a tour.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

As I mentioned in my last post...the "Miracle" was doped... not clean. It's a false miracle.
It was NOT though shear will power and strong resolve alone that he accomplished his goals after being sick. A critical component was Ferarri and doping BIG TIME and if it was not for that he would have never won one single tour and if totally clean he might not have ever finished a tour.

He makes himself out as an example when it ,the example, is a lie.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Realgains said:


> LOL Beavis laugh


Real, thanks for posting - very interesting info but.....

<b> PLEASE, for the love of all that is Holy, STOP IT with the Beavis LOLing</b>

oh, and a little less bold text might be welcome too!

ps, I'll stay with Rumex crispus in my salad greens... but then again, I'm just racing for fun, not for a living


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

Realgains said:


> Not a flame friend and this is not directed to you.... but I will go all out here......because I am sick ad tired of people talking about things that they have no clue about....no clue.
> 
> The man was caught with the riders favorite corticoid in his blood.....triamcinolone!!!!
> *Most people do not understand that whole incident because they do not know the power of corticoids and that they are heavily used....and they "bought" the complete rubbish from Lance and company regarding the saddle cream. *It was smart though....because in those days a rider would be hrd pressed to be busted for something that could be used for "medical reasons" like a saddle cream AS LONG AS a prescription could be found.
> ...



I believe you may be suffering from the common characteristic of cheaters and thieves in that those who cheat will be very inclined to believe that most others do the same especially when their competitors still beat them. There is a reason that criminals dont trust anyone.

As far as your posts on this thread and others, it is all junk science. I have seen nothing from you but a bunch of misguided inuendo and conjecture. There are so many factors involved in human performance that are beyond one physical parameter. Why do we even need to do cycling races if we use your methods of determining atheletic ability. Why dont we just send everyone to labs to find out their vo2 max,etc and then declare who the winner is.


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## HOOKEM (Apr 4, 2004)

dude, aw, nevermind...


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

tellico climber said:


> I believe you may be suffering from the common characteristic of cheaters and thieves in that those who cheat will be very inclined to believe that most others do the same especially when their competitors still beat them. There is a reason that criminals dont trust anyone.
> 
> As far as your posts on this thread and others, it is all junk science. I have seen nothing from you but a bunch of misguided inuendo and conjecture. There are so many factors involved in human performance that are beyond one physical parameter. Why do we even need to do cycling races if we use your methods of determining atheletic ability. Why dont we just send everyone to labs to find out their vo2 max,etc and then declare who the winner is.



Believe what you want I do know better in regards to what goes goes on behind close doors. 

In regards to VO2 max. Of course there are other factors that determine performance outcomes....I never said that there wasn't. However, in the end VO2 max give huge insight. Ultimately it is sustained power at threshold that is the most important 'element" in a champion road racer but VO2 max sets the ceiling for this power. When someone has only 82( or less) VO2 max undoped then you know for a certainty that he has been seriously tinkered with. 

"There is doping and then there is doping" Twice busted Eddy Mercyx

Cheers


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

philippec said:


> Real, thanks for posting - very interesting info but.....
> 
> <b> PLEASE, for the love of all that is Holy, STOP IT with the Beavis LOLing</b>
> 
> ...



Yeah , you're right. 

But I am almost done here anyway.:mad2:


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I've said before that I believe you know what you are talking about in regards to the types and uses of various doping products and their medical effects. Certainly you seem to know this stuff better than anyone else here. But that doesn't give you license to proclaim who is doing what in pro cycling or swimming or horse racing or whatever sport comes up. You don't know. You think you know, but you don't. So I'm just trying to keep you honest. When you make a statement like, "Even now....do you know how many riders in the last tour had a TUE for corticoids(for their sore knees) HA!" you need to know the answer! Otherwise, it's just some guy spouting BS.

You've also fallen into the same mistakes that bigpinkt makes reading my posts. If I challenge what you are saying, that doesn't mean I am defending anyone. It just means that I don't think what you are saying is accurate, or the whole story, or the only explanation. Read my posts. I don't think you'll find too many where I actually defend anyone, but you'll find plenty where I question someone's methodology and point out the flaws in it.

Lance is really old news now, by the way.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

In reponse to the OP:
Many like you want to believe in the purity of the olympic games. I once did too. However we've been duped way too many times not just by the athletes but by the media building them up into something beyond human.
In one of your responses to Realgains you used the words "junk science" to describe his arguments. Although I agree that he does not have any direct evidence of top level athletes doping, he did bring quite a bit of useful information to this forum. Before he joined most anyone of us had was summarized clippings from other editorials.
Science unfortunately does not always provide us with direct evidence of "something". What it does is look at how that something affects its surroundings. Take for instance "black holes". Has anyone been inside one? All science has done is tell us at how surrounding matter gets affected.
Back to the topic of doping. I guess the only way we can be sure that this athlete or that athlete dopes is through a direct confession or getting caught with a syringe up his/her a$$. Anything else is science, maybe junk science. Right?
To get off the Lance bashing bandwagon, let me ask you this. We know that Dr. Fuentes' "Birillo" was Ivan Basso. Ivan later confessed that he "intended to dope". Therefore his 2006 Giro domination was legitimate. Correct?
I guess my question is this. When will we as a public say that enough is enough. When cyclists start climbing up vertical walls like Spiderman? When swimmers start swimming faster than dolphins? When sprinters outsprint cheetahs?


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

I would like to know how the law of averages seem to have worked so much in favor of Armstrong and his Postal/Disco train as many call them when compared to other teams. Real Gains and others in another thread state that everyone's response to EPO and blood doping is different. It seems that by some fabulous stroke of luck everyone on the Disco/Postal had a much better than average gain from doping than the other teams. Maybe they should play the lottery daily with such good fortune. Real Gains also stated in another thread that Lance would have been dropped on every climb if not for his blood doping. Please, give me a break. And the statement that he doped before the Leadville 100 is ludicrous. If Armstrong was so smart and crafty in avoiding getting caught during his career do you really believe he would risk his entire reputation by doping for something as insignificant as the Leadville 100. If he were still doping up as you say he would be risking an incredible amount for such little gain. The longer you dope the more likely something or someone will slip up and you will get caught even if there is no testing. People do have loose lips. I would say there could be a fair amount of money in spilling the beans about Lance doping for the Leadville 100.

Im not saying Lance did not dope at all. I dont know. I just dont see why so many people are still out to get him and until I see evidence otherwise, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

I am ready to let the issue die but can not because so many continue to persue Armstrong.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

lanCe = Clean


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## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> Lance is really old news now, by the way.


Lance Bass? I heard he was gay. You know, homosexual--nothing to do with being in N'Sync.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

tellico climber said:


> I am ready to let the issue die but can not because so many continue to persue Armstrong.


Lance™ needs you, tellico. He is battle weary and needs you to stay vigilant. You must ward off the persuers, whatever the cost. You mustn't let the issue die!

<center><img src="https://www.adrenalinefitnessny.com/content/lancearmstrong.jpg"><br><i>Help me tellico climber...you're my only hope</i></center>


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

If one has enough money and if enough "powerful interests" are at stake then be damned with little details like "the truth". All you have to do is remember how riders like Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeoni were "hung out to dry" by even their own teamates.
You did mention that "people do have loose lips". I'm reminding you that some of these "loose lips" did actually spill some of the beans, not willingly though. Emma O'Reilly being one and Frankie Andreu being another. 
You claim that you want to see "evidence" of his guilt. After all these years I don't know what more evidence you need. Please keep in mind that this is just an internet forum and nothing we do or say will ever affect L.A. or anyone else. I guess the most direct "evidence" comes from his 1999 samples. Of course the L.A. defense team did claim that this is just some "vendetta" the French have against him. They already spread misinformation about samples being "spiked" etc. Then there is "magic cream" incident. What I'm trying to say is that with enough "resources" at your disposal you can spread enough "mud" around to discredit anyone. This is not just some brand new theory I'm throwing out here. Just good old human nature. If stuff like this can happen in the financial world, think Enron, or the political world, think Iraq's WMD's, then why not sports?


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## Ttown (Sep 7, 2007)

lance's time at 2004 alpe d'huez is not that good given it was a time trial. not at the end of a 200+k stage like pantani's was.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Ttown said:


> lance's time at 2004 alpe d'huez is not that good given it was a time trial. not at the end of a 200+k stage like pantani's was.


Lance was racing in the age of limited hematocrit and at least some degree of testing. Pantani's times are from the era of essentially unrestricted performance gains from doping. Or maybe Pantani was a better climber than Armstrong, or some combination of the two.


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## tellico climber (Aug 14, 2006)

blackhat said:


> Lance™ needs you, tellico. He is battle weary and needs you to stay vigilant. You must ward off the persuers, whatever the cost. You mustn't let the issue die!
> 
> <center><img src="https://www.adrenalinefitnessny.com/content/lancearmstrong.jpg"><br><i>Help me tellico climber...you're my only hope</i></center>



Very classy response. Typical, respond with a smart ass comment. By the way, I am not the one who constantly brings up Lance Armstrong. I regularly browse this forum and respond very little as evidenced by my posting history. You on the other hand seem to be one of those that cant let the issue die as evidenced by your posting history and frequent jabs at Armstrong. So go ahead and be a condescending jerk, I sure dont care. I just dont know how you look at yourself in the mirrow in the morning without being completely depressed due to you dark outlook on everything.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Lance was racing in the age of limited hematocrit and at least some degree of testing. Pantani's times are from the era of essentially unrestricted performance gains from doping. Or maybe Pantani was a better climber than Armstrong, or some combination of the two.



Yes...the limit was 50% but blood doping to 55-60% was the bomb Dwayne. The blood is transfused after morning controls and either taken out post stage and re-stored for the next day or you get hemodiluted with bolus saline via pumps and volume expanders like pentaspan....to get you down to 49%.

The lesser teams only took "refills" of their own blood for big stages and TT's.



Cheers


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Realgains said:


> Yes...the limit was 50% but blood doping to 55-60% was the bomb Dwayne. The blood is transfused after morning controls and either taken out post stage and re-stored for the next day or you get hemodiluted with bolus saline via pumps and volume expanders like pentaspan....to get you down to 49%.
> 
> The lesser teams only took "refills" of their own blood for big stages and TT's.
> 
> ...


I am curious though, how does a rider do that when they win a stage? (Have blood taken out or diluted).


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

Einstruzende said:


> I am curious though, how does a rider do that when they win a stage? (Have blood taken out or diluted).



When the stage is finished they go straight for the motorhome or hotel....IMMEDIATELY. They jam in 2000cc of saline IV via a "trauma" pump. This is a pump that is used in Operating Rooms during trauma cases to shove in loads of saline, ringers lactate, blood and volume expanders.
The riders also receive volume expanders (generic names Hetastarch) trade names of some include Hespan and Pentaspan) etc are basically starches. They are plasma volume expanders. They keep fluid within the vascular circulation. Usual dose is 500cc. The stuff lasts(works for) 24-36 hours. The above diluted hematocirt back down to 49% 

The other thing the riders can do is simply to take blood out and re-store at 3-4 degree C....while pumping in the saline. It doesn't take long to shove in an 18 gauge catheter and pump drain out the required blood into a blood bag. Save for another stage.
For every unit of whole blood you remove your crit will drop about 3 points.

If the rider is tested IMMEDIATELY after a stage or race and it is found that his crit is above 50% then they will simply claim big dehydration.....just like "Lance" ..some of you may remember that stage. Then the vampires simply have to let them go to "re-hydrate"....usually the team doctor is RANTING all the time they are being tested ...ranting concern for the riders health, dehydrated state and that they need to get fluids into them. HA!

Yes ALL the riders have poke holes(marks).....it is not against the rules to take IV saline, ringers lactate, vitamins and some other things. 

Cheers


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

Realgains said:


> When the stage is finished they go straight for the motorhome or hotel....IMMEDIATELY. They jam in 2000cc of saline IV via a "trauma" pump. This is a pump that is used in Operating Rooms during trauma cases to shove in loads of saline, ringers lactate, blood and volume expanders.
> The riders also receive volume expanders (generic names Hetastarch) trade names of some include Hespan and Pentaspan) etc are basically starches. They are plasma volume expanders. They keep fluid within the vascular circulation. Usual dose is 500cc. The stuff lasts(works for) 24-36 hours. The above diluted hematocirt back down to 49%
> 
> The other thing the riders can do is simply to take blood out and re-store at 3-4 degree C....while pumping in the saline. It doesn't take long to shove in an 18 gauge catheter and pump drain out the required blood into a blood bag. Save for another stage.
> ...


Until this year's Tour riders were never blood tested after a stage, which of course the riders knew. Blood tests were always in the morning so riders had plenty of time to "recover" after a stage. The ASO started some more aggressive chaperoning to try to stop the same practices you are writing about.


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## Realgains (Jul 16, 2008)

bigpinkt said:


> Until this year's Tour riders were never blood tested after a stage, which of course the riders knew. Blood tests were always in the morning so riders had plenty of time to "recover" after a stage. The ASO started some more aggressive chaperoning to try to stop the same practices you are writing about.



Correct, but I always wondered about Lances "dehydration" episode...maybe they did go after him as soon as he got off the bike... in their desperation to catch him. 
I think over the years since 98 the riders got pretty paranoid and thus the disappearing acts.

Cheers


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> I've said before that I believe you know what you are talking about in regards to the types and uses of various doping products and their medical effects. Certainly you seem to know this stuff better than anyone else here. But that doesn't give you license to proclaim who is doing what in pro cycling or swimming or horse racing or whatever sport comes up. You don't know. You think you know, but you don't. So I'm just trying to keep you honest. When you make a statement like, "Even now....do you know how many riders in the last tour had a TUE for corticoids(for their sore knees) HA!" you need to know the answer! Otherwise, it's just some guy spouting BS.
> 
> You've also fallen into the same mistakes that bigpinkt makes reading my posts. If I challenge what you are saying, that doesn't mean I am defending anyone. It just means that I don't think what you are saying is accurate, or the whole story, or the only explanation. Read my posts. I don't think you'll find too many where I actually defend anyone, but you'll find plenty where I question someone's methodology and point out the flaws in it.
> 
> Lance is really old news now, by the way.


No, sorry, you show your true colors as a fan boy when you say LA's old news. BS. A major figure tells the truth about Lance and it's huge news, so please, stop with this old news bs. Very short attention spans here....

Btw, there's a mountain of evidence but you insist on "concrete" evidence which never existed anywhere in proving anyone guilty of anything. You people act as if there is a videotape of every crime committed with 50 witnesses around.. Facing facts is part of growing up. Your hero was doped to the effin gills....


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> No matter what you would like to say, I still believe Phelp's is doping. An amazing performance is one thing, breaking the record in every event you compete (especially when all the other WORLDS BEST ATHLETES are still behind the record line)...
> 
> Too fishy for me.



I'm gonna get shut down for this, but you're an extra strength strawberry scented DB. Who really cares. Really. China is using 13yr old kids, American is breaking records in the pool because a guy has big hands, feet, and lungs. I wonder if the S.Korean badmitton team is using? What about Walsh/May in volleyball. They are 457/18 as a team over the last 4 years. 150 somthing and 0 in the last 2yrs. They must be doping. Come on guy. If the test show up negative why fight it. The sports are doing what they can. Testing is getting better every year. WR are being broken in semi-finals by other swimmers, so they must be into it as well. Why can't technology, and advances in training routines be responsible for some of the progress. You're a coach. Do you push your athletes to extremes where they might think "my scholarship is on the line why not"


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

SicBith said:


> ...The sports are doing what they can....



no, really. they're not.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

lookrider said:


> Btw, there's a mountain of evidence but you insist on "concrete" evidence which never existed anywhere in proving anyone guilty of anything. You people act as if there is a videotape of every crime committed with 50 witnesses around.. Facing facts is part of growing up. Your hero was doped to the effin gills....


+1,000

Too many people don't realize that it is very rare to have a "smoking gun" in criminal cases. Many, many people have been convicted of murder and other crimes based solely on circumstantial evidence. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence against Lance. Dr. Ferrari alone is very "telling."


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## SicBith (Jan 21, 2008)

blackhat said:


> no, really. they're not.


They're testing, drug companies are putting in IDs in the drugs to assist in testing (I read that somewhere about CERA. I'm sure someone will call me FOS), so IMO the sport is doing their best. 
There will always be people challanging and beating the system, no doubt about it, but the system is getting better, and the consequences for getting caught are starting to out weight the bennies. That my friend is how you stop doping. Make the consequences worse than the benefits.
One positive test and your placed in a elevated out of comp testing program (at the cost of the cyclist), and suspended from receiving financil bonuses, awards from races for a year. 
Two positives, and loss of apeals, and you're done. 
Give the sponsors some of the financial penalties as well. Take the money, hero status, and put the future of being paid to ride at risk and the riders will police themselves.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

SicBith said:


> They're testing, drug companies are putting in IDs in the drugs to assist in testing (I read that somewhere about CERA. I'm sure someone will call me FOS)


This is absolutely not true. No drug company would ever even consider it.


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## jgrantv10 (Nov 17, 2005)

Well, at least a few companies are beginning to do so. 

"Revealing the now high-tech nature of the fight against drugs in sport, WADA chief John Fahey said his organization worked with drugs giant Roche on the newest version of EPO (erythropoietin).

He said Roche had included a molecule in the third generation of EPO, called Continuous Erythropoiesis Receptor Activator (CERA) that acted as a marker in drug tests." [Edit to add citation: - Velo News]

This is a different question from whether the sport (or sports in general) is doing all it can. I can certainly see how drug companies might see some benefit from placing markers in drugs. 
- From a marketing perspective, it is not helpful to be associated with so much bad press (and may be costly as well).
- From an intellectual property standpoint, this may anticipate future patent protection issues.

Just because drug companies begin to place marker doesn't make it altruistic, but it is certainly helpful. Of course, this does nothing to combat boutique producers (BALCO, for example) whose target market is dopers. Dopers are just a drop in the bucket for Roche et al.


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## lookrider (Dec 3, 2006)

*Thanks*



Tschai said:


> +1,000
> 
> Too many people don't realize that it is very rare to have a "smoking gun" in criminal cases. Many, many people have been convicted of murder and other crimes based solely on circumstantial evidence. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence against Lance. Dr. Ferrari alone is very "telling."


I don't watch it but isn't "Cold Case Files" a popular show based somewhat on the real world where a determined Detective tracks down a killer in an unsolved murder after a very long time, like decades, or something like that? These solved killings are seen on the news every once in a while and the victims and perpetrators many times aren't even well known. Now Tyler blowing the lid off LA, this is a huge story if it ever happens... 

These LA apologists are so anxious to say the statute of limitations ran out on LA's fraud because he's retired. Jeez, LA is still pretty prominent and Marion Jones was nailed at least 7 years after the fact, (after never testing positive) so lets give it till at least 2012 until we close the case. LMAO.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Still not true. Still never will be true.



> Contrary to earlier reports, Italian Riccardo Riccò's positive for EPO was not the result of a "secret molecule" being added to the drug to allow anti-doping authorities to more easily detect it. World Anti-doping Agency president John Fahey seemingly made the statement on an interview with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation on Wednesday, but the agency's spokesman said his words may have been misinterpreted.
> 
> "No marker was inserted in the substance," the WADA spokesman said, clarifying that the tests which are being performed at the Tour de France are of a conventional nature. "Thanks to the fruitful cooperation of the manufacturer of this substance (Roche) and of WADA-accredited laboratories, which started in 2004, WADA received the molecule well in advance and was able to develop ways to detect it, including through the current EPO detection method."
> 
> A Roche spokesperson confirmed to Cyclingnews that the WADA president misspoke, and that there was nothing added to the drug to help its detection. However, news of a collaboration between the company and anti-doping authorities are true. "Roche has provided samples of Mircera and assay reagents to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) to help ensure that WADA laboratories will be able to carry out reliable anti-doping testing."


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jul08/jul24news2


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## jgrantv10 (Nov 17, 2005)

Interesting development. I note, however, that Roche does seem to be cooperating by providing samples of newly developed product. From the same cycling news article:

"A Roche spokesperson confirmed to Cyclingnews that the WADA president misspoke, and that there was nothing added to the drug to help its detection. However, news of a collaboration between the company and anti-doping authorities are true. "Roche has provided samples of Mircera and assay reagents to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) to help ensure that WADA laboratories will be able to carry out reliable anti-doping testing." 

I also heard an interview on NPR with the developer of the new "Endurance Pill" (exercise in a bottle) that stimulates endurance adaptations during rest. In that interview he stated unequivocally that they were including markers to help with detection. 

Mind you, I am aggressively anti-doping and am not a fan (to say the least) of big pharma, but I think there is some evidence to indicate that pharma is wiling to play ball with anti-doping efforts (so long, I'm sure, as they aren't prohibited in any way from selling to their target markets. Playing nice is one thing, giving away money is quite another).


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## jgrantv10 (Nov 17, 2005)

I couldn't find the "marker" citation in short order but I did find an article that speaks more generally to the issue of anicipating dopig abuse with the new product. According to Dr Ronald M Evans, a professor in the Gene Expression Laboratory at the Salk Institute, "Evans is already working officials at the World Anti-Doping Association on a blood and urine test that detects AICAR, GW1516 and its metabolites." 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/116885.php

Mind you, all the assistance in the world from Pharma isn't going to make much of a difference if there isn't a significant adjustment in enforcement across the board in cycling.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

jgrantv10 said:


> Mind you, I am aggressively anti-doping and am not a fan (to say the least) of big pharma, but I think there is some evidence to indicate that pharma is wiling to play ball with anti-doping efforts (so long, I'm sure, as they aren't prohibited in any way from selling to their target markets. Playing nice is one thing, giving away money is quite another).


Many years ago this might have made a difference, but not now. PEDs like EPO used to be expensive. They are now pretty reasonably priced due to the illicit trade from China. The size of the underground economy there is staggering.

Think for a moment how much capital it would take to make a Rolex knock-off. It's not like making pirated DVDs, where the same equipment can be used to make copies of one movie is used to make another. A lot of custom individual components have to be cloned for a specific watch. The movement is likely a Japanese automatic, but the shell, bezel, face, hands, band links, clasp, holograph, etc. have to be manufactured. The cost to set up initial manufacturing is substantial. The criminal enterprises that can provide that kind of capital have no problem manufacturing knock-off drugs--or even designer drugs like the ones BALCO made--because drug manufacture is actually cheap.

The Chinese have shut down some of the most popular suppliers that take orders on the Internet and ship to the U.S., but this appears to be due to the Olympics. It may also be fallout from a U.S. FBI investigation last year. Ultimately it won't be any more sucessful than the war on drugs.


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## jgrantv10 (Nov 17, 2005)

Well, I think the determining lever in this case is market size. Recreational drugs target a massive market. Despite the breadth of the PED market, I am not convinced that it represents a large enough market opportunity to ramp up dedicated manufacturing facilities. It is one thing for a facility that makes licensed product or legal generics to also run a little side business selling PEDs, it is quite another thing to build an entire enterprise around the illicit market alone. I don't claim to know whether the addressable market size is adequate or not, but I have serious doubts. I can't think that it is more than a fraction of the market for, say, pot or cocaine. I can't help but think that the only business model that makes the investment worth it in this case is the boutique model like Balco - making your margins on very expensive but limited numbers of sales.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

I don't think Phelp doping.
I'm not an expert in swimming but I watched one of his many races the other night and noticed a few things.
It was a race where a Korean swimmer got a Silver medal.
They said that Park (Korean swimmer) is 5' 10" and Phelp is 6' 4" with the wing span of 6' 7". After they dove into the water, I noticed that Phelp came up out of the water half body length advantage. Park maintained that gap until the turn around where Phels came up with a full body length advanage. Again, Park maintain that gap. It seems like Phelps was making most of his gains at the turn around point. That maybe why he isn't participating the short races where he can't really take advatage of his turn around skill.
Besides, Phelp is not only one who is breaking the world records.

They said the records are being shattered because;

a) The pool is deeper than the standard depth (8 feet vs normally 6 feet) which creates much less choppiness/drag.
b) It's wider than the standard pool which creates less drag.
c) The new speedo suit they are wearing cuts own significant amount of drag.

Maybe I'm too naive but I just can't see him doping.....


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

SicBith said:


> I'm gonna get shut down for this, but you're an extra strength strawberry scented DB. Who really cares. Really. China is using 13yr old kids, American is breaking records in the pool because a guy has big hands, feet, and lungs. I wonder if the S.Korean badmitton team is using? What about Walsh/May in volleyball. They are 457/18 as a team over the last 4 years. 150 somthing and 0 in the last 2yrs. They must be doping. Come on guy. If the test show up negative why fight it. The sports are doing what they can. Testing is getting better every year. WR are being broken in semi-finals by other swimmers, so they must be into it as well. Why can't technology, and advances in training routines be responsible for some of the progress. You're a coach. Do you push your athletes to extremes where they might think "my scholarship is on the line why not"


I'm not sure what your fascination with "extra strength strawberry scented DB" is all about, but I'll let you enjoy your twisted moment...

..OK, back to the topic. Were any of your concerns not addressed? Sports aren't doing all they can to clean up. Look at operation puerto. How many spanish soccer players (or hell, anyone) who has been guilty in court over this? BELCO? How many others are getting away with it?

Who really cares? I do. The public should. YOU SHOULD. Yeah, cheating has been around since the start, but why should it be accepted? How would you feel naturally getting to the absolute top of the world in your sport and placing 2nd to someone who cheated? How would you like to be fired from your team and your dream because someone who is doping is doing better than you? It's immoral, unfair, and irrational to believe that you shouldn't care. You, sir, are a fraud and the reason people cheat. Scumbag.

Pushing to extremes is different than cheating. I don't train clients who are going to the olympics or even have nothing but 30hrs per week to commit to training. If I did, I wouldn't dope them up. Pressure, fame, and money are all reasons people dope. Don't think they're all getting caught...or even most of them, or a plurality of them.



jgrantv10 said:


> Well, I think the determining lever in this case is market size. Recreational drugs target a massive market. Despite the breadth of the PED market, I am not convinced that it represents a large enough market opportunity to ramp up dedicated manufacturing facilities. It is one thing for a facility that makes licensed product or legal generics to also run a little side business selling PEDs, it is quite another thing to build an entire enterprise around the illicit market alone. I don't claim to know whether the addressable market size is adequate or not, but I have serious doubts. I can't think that it is more than a fraction of the market for, say, pot or cocaine. I can't help but think that the only business model that makes the investment worth it in this case is the boutique model like Balco - making your margins on very expensive but limited numbers of sales.


Sorry if I come off hard, I'm a little ticked at SicBith's arrogance, but.. Not a large enough market? The health supplement market is worth $18 BILLION a year just in the US. You'd be hard pressed to find a retail store that doesn't sell all this crap. No enterprise on the PED market alone? Seriously? This sh!t is available all over the place. Here are the results from a 10 second search on google:
http://gasparinutrition.com/products/
http://cemproducts.com/
http://www.futurepharmaceuticals.co.uk/

Or just go to a Dr. who specializes in age/hormone replacement therapy and he'll do it for you.

Disclaimer on those sites: I could care less if any of you buy it and OD in your experiments. I don't care if you're successful with it, or if you are scammed and lose your money. But, if for some reason you go the route of cheating, it's your own conflict of morality (or lack-thereof). Was it really you who won that race or was it the drugs?


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## dbrower (Jul 10, 2005)

*Untrue.*



bigpinkt said:


> Until this year's Tour riders were never blood tested after a stage, which of course the riders knew. Blood tests were always in the morning so riders had plenty of time to "recover" after a stage. The ASO started some more aggressive chaperoning to try to stop the same practices you are writing about.


Untrue. Landis had blood taken at the doping control trailer. No results ever reported.

-dB


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