# moving forward on the saddle or moving backward when climbing



## Tony Shih (Sep 7, 2005)

i realized that you have to shift the position on the saddle for a better climbing in order to use all parts of leg muscles, however, in a controlled time period, under same power output, under same climbing grade,which position will be more efficent? the forward position on the saddles or slide back your butt on backward. will be providing you with the most speed.

Any good advise on climbing??

TKS


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## Antonelli (Jul 4, 2004)

Tony Shih said:


> i realized that you have to shift the position on the saddle for a better climbing in order to use all parts of leg muscles, however, in a controlled time period, under same power output, under same climbing grade,which position will be more efficent? the forward position on the saddles or slide back your butt on backward. will be providing you with the most speed.
> 
> Any good advise on climbing??
> 
> TKS


Slide your butt back on the saddle, with your hands on top of the bars (atleast this works for me). I've heard it creates more leverage . If you notice when the pro's ride time trials, they're positioned pretty forward on the saddle. So one would assume to do the opposite when climbing.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

the reason why the time trial position uses a forward saddle position is to maintain the hip/leg angle that the rider is used to while the torso is flatter and more forward on the aero bars. Picture the entire assemblage (remember that from building model airplanes?) rotated forward. In order to accomplish that, and maintain the same range of motion of the legs that your muscles and stuff are used to, you need to move the saddle forward.
Sliding your a** back while climbing I think doesn't do much other than to unweight your arms and allow you to pull up on the bars while pushing down on the pedals. I don't think it really accomplishes much other than to make you feel as if you're using your body to help push down on the pedals, but you're still conveying power through your legs, either way.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I guess as I think about it, there is an equivalence to the time trial reason -- since you are more upright when climbing, because typically you're on the tops of the bars, your rearward a** again maintains that same torso/leg angle relationship that you normally use.


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## Tony Shih (Sep 7, 2005)

bill said:


> I guess as I think about it, there is an equivalence to the time trial reason -- since you are more upright when climbing, because typically you're on the tops of the bars, your rearward a** again maintains that same torso/leg angle relationship that you normally use.


First of all, tks for reply, Bill & Mr.A.
The reason I am asking this question is because I was reading an article by Chris Carmichael, (Mr.7's coach) in order to to climb faster, " as you start to climb,edge forward in the saddles to distribute your weight more evenly between front wheel & back wheel.on really steep hill, postiion the nose of the saddles firmly between your butt cheek.
you will get better balance & force more leg muscles to help with the climb"

---> I could understand the 1~2 sentence, it make sense & did an experiment on my own
& it is true.. less power lost..
----> for high cadence, i also feel that better to keep my axx forward on the saddle.
however, for lower cadence, slide back actually help..

well. the more i read.. the more confused i become.. CAN anyone offer their opinion!!!


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## footballcat (Jul 8, 2004)

So what are you asking what is the best position for climbing or what is the best position for a time trial?


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*A few comments*



Tony Shih said:


> First of all, tks for reply, Bill & Mr.A.
> The reason I am asking this question is because I was reading an article by Chris Carmichael, (Mr.7's coach) in order to to climb faster, " as you start to climb,edge forward in the saddles to distribute your weight more evenly between front wheel & back wheel.on really steep hill, postiion the nose of the saddles firmly between your butt cheek.
> you will get better balance & force more leg muscles to help with the climb"
> 
> ...


In general:

Because most saddles are either flat or slope slightly upward in the back, sliding to the back of the saddle increases leg extension, increasing the mechanical advantage of the leg joints/muscles, at the cost of increased overall leg motion. Since many people climb at a lower cadence (higher leg force for the same power), the increased leg extension is an advantage.

On the other hand, rider position is often set to optimize pedaling effectiveness by positioning the rider's CG over the pedals, so the rider can use their body weight to counterbalance their pedaling motion. When the slope goes up steeply, the CG is moved backward. In addition many people sit up more when climbing, which also shifts CG back. In order to get the body's CG back over the pedals, riders sometime have to move forward on their saddles when climbing.

So where does that leave us? Riding technique is of course a personal matter, but those who tend to mash the pedals at slower cadence up hills tend to slide back, and those who tend to spin up hills are more likely to slide forward.

Oh, and Chris Carmichael isn't (wasn't) really Armstrong's coach. Carmichael was called Armstrong's coach for advertising purposes - Armstrong owns a large portion of CTS (Carmicheal Training Systems), and it certainly wouldn't look good if they admitted that Armstrong got his training program else where. Armstrong's actual coaches were people like Dr. MicheleFerrari, who was recently sentenced in a malpractice/sporting frauding/doping trial BBC Sport Article on Ferrari sentencing.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Mark McM said:


> In general:
> 
> Oh, and Chris Carmichael isn't (wasn't) really Armstrong's coach.


Huh? Who are you to say he was or wasn't Lance's coach????

And regarding saddle position whilst climbing, everyone is different - you have to get out there and try different things, see what works for YOU. Benchmark yourself over the same climb in different positions.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

wipeout said:


> Huh? Who are you to say he was or wasn't Lance's coach????


There's certainly plenty of evidence to support that statement. "Lance Armstrong's War" being one source.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

asgelle said:


> There's certainly plenty of evidence to support that statement. "Lance Armstrong's War" being one source.


Granted in recent years, Chris's influence has probably been lessend, but from everything I've read, he was his coach from 1990 and helped quite a bit with the cancer recovery.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

*Too many factors*



Tony Shih said:


> i realized that you have to shift the position on the saddle for a better climbing in order to use all parts of leg muscles, however, in a controlled time period, under same power output, under same climbing grade,which position will be more efficent? the forward position on the saddles or slide back your butt on backward. will be providing you with the most speed.
> 
> Any good advise on climbing??
> 
> TKS


Good advice on climbing? Climb lots. Short and steep, long and steady....whatever you have to work with.

There are a lot of variables when it comes to climbing styles. In general, a rider will position himself rearward on the saddle when climbing. This does two things, it slightly lengthens the leg extension and also it puts additional recruitment on the gluteal muscles and lessens the load on the quadriceps. In general when pushing back on the saddle a rider will drop his cadence and ride a bigger gear.

A rider who rides smaller gears with a high cadence (90+) in the saddle is more inclined to stay in a neutral saddle position similar to the position he has on the flat. These generalizations all break down once the grades steepen (12% or greater). To climb a steep climb in the saddle, the rider usually moves forward to keep the center of gravity steady. But most riders will climb out of the saddle.

There really is no right or wrong technique. It is very dependent on gradient, length of climb, cadence and gearing preference (spinners sit more), and rider size (small riders can stand for longer periods).


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## Tony Shih (Sep 7, 2005)

footballcat said:


> So what are you asking what is the best position for climbing or what is the best position for a time trial?


 best position for climbing.


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## Tony Shih (Sep 7, 2005)

Eric_H said:


> Good advice on climbing? Climb lots. Short and steep, long and steady....whatever you have to work with.
> 
> There are a lot of variables when it comes to climbing styles. In general, a rider will position himself rearward on the saddle when climbing. This does two things, it slightly lengthens the leg extension and also it puts additional recruitment on the gluteal muscles and lessens the load on the quadriceps. In general when pushing back on the saddle a rider will drop his cadence and ride a bigger gear.
> 
> ...


Guys, thinks a lot..so I might conclude that If our cardio. system can afford us to do. as the most efficient method, On the steep hill, moving forward on the saddles & keep high cadence is better. meanwhile, shift between forward back & backforward for higher cadence & gave our heart a rest by slide back, as cadence will dorp due to backward position. 

For a long time, for climbing, I slide back & try to keep high cadence, the result is that i get tired quickly, however, i think i am fit as I exercise everyday.

I rode with a 45+ year old guy w. beer belly, he spin like crazy, the speed was quick like cat, while. i tried to keep up with him with a lot of effort.. I was embrassed. (this guy says that he goes to drink 3 time a week, mean while I am in the gym 3 time a week..)

I am only 5 feet 7, (170cm tall, 71 kg), I have good cardio. I think i should have the built
to be a good climber, but.. i have been slide back on the climb.. & try to keep high cadence... i think it is why i get tired so soon. otherwise, i could slide foward &
riding at much higher cadence to explore my good cardio... GOD... I can not wait until
the weekend.. 

by the way, i am not saying that guys with big beer belly should climb slow.. it just
amazing that he makes climbing looks so easy.


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## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

wipeout said:


> Huh? Who are you to say he was or wasn't Lance's coach????


When refering to Carmichael as Armstrong's coach I meant the word "wasn't" to indicate that Armstrong is retired (and therefore presumably doesn't presently have a coach), not that Carmichael was never Armstrong's coach. Carmichael was the US National Team coach from 1990-1992, when Armstrong was on the national team, so it is very likely that Armstrong received much coaching from Carmichael. However, after Armstrong turned pro it is apparant that Carmichael played less of a role to Armstrong as a coach, and Carmichael's role as a coach became practically non-existant during Armstrong's major victories (1999-2005 Tour de France). During recent years, however, Carmichael's role as a business partner increased (Armstrong owns a large portion of Carmichael Training Systems), so for business/marketing reasons Carmichael was still referred to as "Armstrong's Coach".


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## footballcat (Jul 8, 2004)

I slide forward in the sadle, when the hill starts to get steep i drop into my 23 and stand and climb

Living in a pretty hilly area and losing 30lbs is what has helped my climbing the most, i can feel the difference that 2 months have made down here, so losing weight would be the first thing to make you climb better in my personal opinion. It will give you results the quickest


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## Tony Shih (Sep 7, 2005)

footballcat said:


> I slide forward in the sadle, when the hill starts to get steep i drop into my 23 and stand and climb
> 
> Living in a pretty hilly area and losing 30lbs is what has helped my climbing the most, i can feel the difference that 2 months have made down here, so losing weight would be the first thing to make you climb better in my personal opinion. It will give you results the quickest


yes, loosing weight is the only one, i usually need 25 around here, i could do it in 23, but
i can not keep high cadence in the mountain around Taipei. 

tks.


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## Tony Shih (Sep 7, 2005)

Mark McM said:


> When refering to Carmichael as Armstrong's coach I meant the word "wasn't" to indicate that Armstrong is retired (and therefore presumably doesn't presently have a coach), not that Carmichael was never Armstrong's coach. Carmichael was the US National Team coach from 1990-1992, when Armstrong was on the national team, so it is very likely that Armstrong received much coaching from Carmichael. However, after Armstrong turned pro it is apparant that Carmichael played less of a role to Armstrong as a coach, and Carmichael's role as a coach became practically non-existant during Armstrong's major victories (1999-2005 Tour de France). During recent years, however, Carmichael's role as a business partner increased (Armstrong owns a large portion of Carmichael Training Systems), so for business/marketing reasons Carmichael was still referred to as "Armstrong's Coach".


mark, tks for the information. i understand, it will be nice if Mr.Camichael can join this
discuss forums once in a while to answer our questions. I think as experienced as Lance.
is the only thing that could make him better is the love for his GF Ms.C.
(image she stands in the finish line & he is doing a TT up the hill) have a nice day!!!


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## footballcat (Jul 8, 2004)

i have a 26, i need it while sitting, but i dont just stay in the 26 when i get out of the saddle i go down to the 23, thats what i tend to get going on a hill


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## chipped teeth (Apr 18, 2005)

Eric_H said:


> it puts additional recruitment on the gluteal muscles and lessens the load on the quadriceps.



This is key. Generally the glutes last longer, at lower intensity, than the quads. You can ride all day at low intensity using hamstring and glute, but the quads wear out real quick. Climbing is most often a steady effort, so this is a good practice. I find that being able to climb in a few positions helps- when one set of muscles tires, a slight shift recruits new muscles.


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## vonteity (Feb 13, 2005)

Tony Shih said:


> i realized that you have to shift the position on the saddle for a better climbing in order to use all parts of leg muscles, however, in a controlled time period, under same power output, under same climbing grade,which position will be more efficent? the forward position on the saddles or slide back your butt on backward. will be providing you with the most speed.
> 
> Any good advise on climbing??
> 
> TKS


Here's my advice from personal experience. I did an uphill time trial (Wintergreen Ascent) last year. While general advice is to push back in your saddle and climb seated, seven or more miles is a long way to climb in that one position. I found that shaking things up a bit by moving around on the saddle gave me more power, since I could switch position when I got tired and climb seated longer in a different position. In addition to pushing back in the saddle, you can also push forward on the saddle and sit on the nose. This gives you access to a different set of muscles (or uses the muscles in a different way, I should say) and gives you a break -- athough it's not quite as comfortable to sit in that position. From there, you can also stand of course, then go back to seated climbing. I rotated through all three positions many times during the climb.

So to answer your question, I guess... it depends on how long the time trial is. If it's long enough that you can't sustain one position for the entirely, then you'll have to use both. If it's short enough to ride in one position, you need to figure out which works best for you.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

Mark McM said:


> However, after Armstrong turned pro it is apparant that Carmichael played less of a role to Armstrong as a coach, and Carmichael's role as a coach became practically non-existant during Armstrong's major victories (1999-2005 Tour de France).


Carmichael's role varied over the years, but when Lance was training to recover his competitive fitness after his bout with cancer, he started by heading into the North Carolina hills with Bob Roll and Chris Carmichael. Clearly Carmichael was a key personal coach at that time, which was well after Armstrong turned pro. Nonetheless it doesn't contradict your statements about whom Lance consulted during his TdF glory years.


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