# Fragile S-Works Tarmac SL4



## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

I am really surprised at how fragile a frame with such pedigree as an S-Works Tarmac SL4 can be. A mate's 6 month old SL4 suffered some damage to his left seat stay. And all this was because he didnt lean the bike properly against the wall after a ride. As a result the frame's seatstay is damaged and cracked. Specialized is not gonna warranty the frame as it was rider induced. I can see Specialized point of view that this is not due to manufacturing fault. But, if the frame cant even withstand such a 'fall', what kinda chances does it have to withstand a crash?? It just sucks being that the frame is so new and I am sure most would know that it is not a cheap item. 

Any help or advise would be good. Thanks.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Not sure what help or advice you're seeking, and I wasn't there to witness the 'fall' so can't judge, but 1) bikes aren't designed to withstand falls or crashes and 2) that (to some degree) is the trade off for buying a frame weighing in at around 850g's - higher STW = less material = less durability. 

It's not that much different with other frame materials, such as TT S3 steel tubing. One can easily dent a tube with a fairly minor 'impact'. 

It's all a trade-off and (ironically) if one values durability over minimal weight, lower end materials like alu, Reynolds 5/ 6 series steel or lower end CF are better choices.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

BTW, it won't be cheap, but Calfee does CF repairs:
http://www.calfeedesign.com/


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Not sure what help or advice you're seeking, and I wasn't there to witness the 'fall' so can't judge, but 1) bikes aren't designed to withstand falls or crashes and 2) that (to some degree) is the trade off for buying a frame weighing in at around 850g's - higher STW = less material = less durability.
> 
> It's not that much different with other frame materials, such as TT S3 steel tubing. One can easily dent a tube with a fairly minor 'impact'.
> 
> It's all a trade-off and (ironically) if one values durability over minimal weight, lower end materials like alu, Reynolds 5/ 6 series steel or lower end CF are better choices.


I totally agree with you that there is a tradeoff when buying a lightweight frame and durability will be lowered. However, I would expect that the frame withstand what ever impact that might result from a stationary fall from a parked position. If it were to fall from a few feet up, then there's no argument at all, Specialized definitely shouldnt warranty the frame. 

I was just wondering if there were any other avenues to get some compensation of sorts. It's really heart wrenching to see such a new frame go to waste.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

My SL3 Tarmac has fallen over a couple times due to my ignorance but, it sustained to damage outside a scrapped saddle and handlebar. As the above poster pointed out, none of us were there to witness the "fall". Often we don't get a clear picture of the story. I guess if the stay hit something sharp at the end of the fall, there is enough momentum there to damage the stay....I guess. 

Some manufactures (bike frames and wheels) are offering an insurance package that covers this type damage and its not a bad idea on expensive frames. I do not know if Specialized offers this, but I don't think they do. Nevertheless, I agree that it would be good if Specialized offered some kind of conciliatory help on this particular case - depending on the specifics. 

A few weeks ago, in a rush I finished a bike ride and threw my clothes in the wash without checking them for stuff. Once the washing machine started I head a bumping sound....then immediately remembered my brand new Blackberry 9900 cell phone was in the pocket. I took it out but it was hosed. It didn't seem wet inside, but it never powered up again. Blackberry would do nothing, and AT&T would do nothing. I had to buy another phone. 

The Calfee connection as mentioned above with regards to repair is a good one. I would pursue this avenue as carbon frames can be repaired fairly easily these days, and with a high degree of integrity. In a short time, your friend will get over the fact that it has been repaired. It should be unnoticeable in ride and appearance. We all have to learn to focus ahead and shed these mental blocks that tell us something is not whole. The SL4 is a superb bike. Fix it and ride it.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

snchin said:


> I totally agree with you that there is a tradeoff when buying a lightweight frame and durability will be lowered. However, I would expect that the frame withstand what ever impact that might result from a stationary fall from a parked position. If it were to fall from a few feet up, then there's no argument at all, Specialized definitely shouldnt warranty the frame.
> 
> I was just wondering if there were any other avenues to get some compensation of sorts. It's really heart wrenching to see such a new frame go to waste.


JMO, but there are too many variables at play here to judge whether or not Spec should offer compensation. They do offer a crash replacement policy that your friend may want to pursue with his LBS - basically, a decent discount on a new frame - but (IMO) Calfee will be the cheaper option. I've read and heard enough about their finished work that I wouldn't hesitate to use them.


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

Without a photo, impossible to give an opinion.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Depending on the circumstances, maybe house insurance would cover this? Otherwise, I would get it repaired as others have mentioned.

This is one reason why I'm happier on an older SL Pro frame - it seems much less fragile than a top-end carbon frame. All that extra carbon, glue and paint should add some robustness, I hope.


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

snchin said:


> I am really surprised at how fragile a frame with such pedigree as an S-Works Tarmac SL4 can be. A mate's 6 month old SL4 suffered some damage to his left seat stay. And all this was because he didnt lean the bike properly against the wall after a ride. As a result the frame's seatstay is damaged and cracked. Specialized is not gonna warranty the frame as it was rider induced. I can see Specialized point of view that this is not due to manufacturing fault. But, if the frame cant even withstand such a 'fall', what kinda chances does it have to withstand a crash?? It just sucks being that the frame is so new and I am sure most would know that it is not a cheap item.
> 
> Any help or advise would be good. Thanks.


 "all this was because he didnt lean the bike properly against the wall after a ride" 

Are you sure his is what really happened?


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

snchin said:


> I am really surprised at how fragile a frame with such pedigree as an S-Works Tarmac SL4 can be.
> 
> Any help or advise would be good. Thanks.


a picture would be good? 

sometimes companies will do a crash warranty, that is offer a discount on new frame. Perhaps the dealer will offer a deal?

Unfortunately, with these expensive frames, you are often paying a penalty in toughness and price. It is hard to make something really stiff and light, and resistant to impact.

I would have to guess the seat stay directly impacted something on the way down. Just lay your bike on flat ground and try to make your seat stay touch anything.


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

View attachment 273207
View attachment 273208


Attached are pictures of the bike. There's no damage to other parts of the bike during the fall. Even with an impact on the seatstay, is it that fragile?


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

purdyd said:


> a picture would be good?
> 
> sometimes companies will do a crash warranty, that is offer a discount on new frame. Perhaps the dealer will offer a deal?
> 
> ...



Our group of riders have always been careful when parking our bikes. More so now after witnessing this mishap


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

NealH said:


> A few weeks ago, in a rush I finished a bike ride and threw my clothes in the wash without checking them for stuff. Once the washing machine started I head a bumping sound....then immediately remembered my brand new Blackberry 9900 cell phone was in the pocket. I took it out but it was hosed. It didn't seem wet inside, but it never powered up again. Blackberry would do nothing, and AT&T would do nothing. I had to buy another phone.


I guess if you put it in this context, then the manufacturer should certainly not warrant their product. The phone definitely is not water proof.  But a bicycle frame should certainly be able to withstand a certain amount of impact, right?

But then again, one might say, it all depends on where the impact is coming from and the angle as well. When riding over uneven roads or across potholes (not those that can be mistaken for a drain), the bike can definitely absorb the impact.


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

I know it's an uphill battle and I do not want to come across as being unreasonable. It's just that it's really sad to see a frame so new go to waste. Not to mention, it certainly ain't cheap.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

snchin said:


> I know it's an uphill battle and I do not want to come across as being unreasonable.* It's just that it's really sad to see a frame so new go to waste.* Not to mention, it certainly ain't cheap.


Given the extent of damage shown in your photo, that frame is far from going to waste. I'd definitely go the Calfee route and ride the bike another decade.

Have your friend send them some photos and get an estimate. After a few months, I'd bet he won't even remember where the damage occurred.


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Given the extent of damage shown in your photo, that frame is far from going to waste. I'd definitely go the Calfee route and ride the bike another decade.
> 
> Have your friend send them some photos and get an estimate. After a few months, I'd bet he won't even remember where the damage occurred.


Well, we're in Malaysia which means the frame will need to be shipped to Calfee. Hope the shipping charges are not exorbitant.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

snchin said:


> Well, we're in Malaysia which means the frame will need to be shipped to Calfee. Hope the shipping charges are not exorbitant.


That's something you'd need to check into, but shipping would have to be pretty exorbitant to equal the cost of a new S-Works Tarmac!


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## RunningW (Jan 4, 2013)

[rant]C'mon, Specialized should not have to be responsible for your buddy's bike falling over. Threads like these against manufacturers really rub me the wrong way. A defect is a defect, crashing or your bike falling IS NOT A DEFECT and not anybody's responsibility to fix but your own. [/rant]

:mad2:


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> That's something you'd need to check into, but shipping would have to be pretty exorbitant to equal the cost of a new S-Works Tarmac!


Man. Just checked. Shipping's gonna cost USD1k!!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

snchin said:


> Man. Just checked. Shipping's gonna cost USD1k!!


 There's _gotta_ be a better/ cheaper way...


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## izza (Jul 25, 2012)

Simply put:

1) The damage has clearly scuffed the lacquer but is the carbon actually cracked? Is the tube flexible when pressed around the damage?
2) If the answer to the above is 'Yes' then insurance should cover this. If not polish and carry on riding.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

izza said:


> Simply put:
> 
> 1) The damage has clearly scuffed the lacquer but is the carbon actually cracked? Is the tube flexible when pressed around the damage?
> 2) If the answer to the above is 'Yes' then insurance should cover this. If not polish and carry on riding.


Good points, but just as an aside the carbon doesn't actually have to be cracked to be compromised. A deep enough gouge (through the clearcoat and into the fiber/ resin) can do the same.

Hard to tell from a pic, but I was thinking that if (as you say) scratched clearcoat is the extent of damage, an auto body shop may be able to fine sand and reapply clear coat to the area.


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## Doc_D (Mar 16, 2006)

I have a hard time believing an unweighted bike falling over would damage the seat stay to the degree that it is structurally compromised. I've seen some of the destructive and non destructive testing these bikes go through. There is no way any manufacturer would deign a bike that could be structurally compromised by falling over on it's own weight.

Now if you told me the bike tipped over with the riders weights on it and landed on a curb, that I'd buy.


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## squareslinky (Aug 13, 2009)

I am also finding the "it fell over" as a questionable fault here. Did it hit something else on the fall?


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## 2Slo4U (Feb 12, 2005)

snchin said:


> Man. Just checked. Shipping's gonna cost USD1k!!


Have you looked into a carbon repair facility in your country?


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

When the bike fell, nobody was sitting on the bike. The bike was parked. 
We did initially think that it was only the lacquer that was damaged. But the damaged became bigger. It was initially on visible on the outer side of the seat stay, but the it spread to the perpendicular faces of the seat stay. 

I do understand that bikes are not meant to be dropped or in this case left to fall on its own. But it's just so gut wrenching to see a frame so new and so costly be damaged so easily. 

For what it's worth, I do not mean to ridicule or criticize Specialized and definitely do not want to insult or offend anybody here.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

I've seen many bikes drop over, and don't remember one hitting the seat stay. Its usually the saddle edge, pedal and maybe derailleur if dropped on the right side. The fact this bike has a cracked seat stay tells me it fell on something relatively sharp....maybe a rock? What did it hit? I am still struggling with the tought of a SL4 having enough inertia during a simple tip over to do any significant damage. But like you say, the tubes are thin.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

NealH said:


> ... like you say, the tubes are thin.


I have a custom steel bike built with Nivacrom tubing. Had it leaning on the side of my garage (frame) at the bars and as it slid forward, the TT contacted the edge of the frame, causing a noticeable dent. 

Because many steel buyers are thinking back a few decades, many steel frame builders forewarn buyers of this possibility. It all goes back to less material = less weight _and_ less durability - at least with today's choices of frame materials.


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## hipo_p51 (Jul 6, 2012)

If memory serves, i remember reading some where the crash replacement cost is 1000-1500usd. new frame from specialized with warranty. Call it a lesson learned.


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## snchin (Aug 10, 2009)

To be 100% honest, I also was not at the 'scene of the crime'. I only saw the bike after the mishap. It could be possible that the frame came into contact with the corner of the curb. Anyway, like what the above poster said, lesson learnt. But damn, it'd be an expensive one.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

That looks like a cracked seat stay to me! That's the problem with these lightweight carbon frame, they are fragile, specifically very low impact resistant. And those S-Works seat stays are very very skinny.

In the US, many bike shop should be able to sell you another frame at-cost as a replacement warranty. This policy may not hold in Malaysia.

If all else fail, and your friend does not have the cash to buy another expensive and fragile frame, then him to just get a Caad10 frame and call it a day. It'll be a little heavier than the S-Works frame, but it'll also be faster and sturdier and cheaper. (Only advantage is if all your friend does is climb 8% grade all day long).


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