# Pros on Fixed Cleats



## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

I noticed a lot of pros use non-floating cleats, why is that? Seems like you would want some float if you're riding for hours and hours


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

CabDoctor said:


> I noticed a lot of pros use non-floating cleats


Not sure what you mean by "a lot" and curious where you got that information. But consider that there's a selection process at work here. Only those with biomechanics perfectly suited to cycling reach the ranks of the pros. With float then not a need, but a preference, some pros probably believe that pedaling fixed is more efficient. To my knowledge, there's no proof that this is true.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

The number of pros on Speedplays seems to buck this theory of them riding fixed cleats...


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

wim said:


> Not sure what you mean by "a lot" and curious where you got that information. But consider that there's a selection process at work here. Only those with biomechanics perfectly suited to cycling reach the ranks of the pros. With float then not a need, but a preference, some pros probably believe that pedaling fixed is more efficient. To my knowledge, there's no proof that this is true.


If you have the fixed cleats set up right there is absolutely no difference during the pedal stroke.

The only time you might notice the difference is if you are riding fixed cleats and have the release tension set very low, and then stand up and twist your whole body to look behind you; the pedals may release.

If you're riding pedals with a lot of float and you notice it I can guarantee you don't have a smooth pedal stroke because if you're pedaling smoothly it's almost impossible to tell the difference while pedaling.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Beg to differ.*



Chris-X said:


> If you have the fixed cleats set up right there is absolutely no difference during the pedal stroke.


While that may be true for a specific individual, it's definitely not true as a universal statement.

To put it simply, force transmitted to the pedal produces abduction of the foot, with the degree of that abduction depending on the individual. If the foot is constrained by a fixed cleat, it cannot abduct. That results in tibial rotation, whose outward sign is lateral movement of the knee joint ("the wobbles.")

People differ vastly in how much tibial rotation they experience with a fixed cleat, and in how much they can tolerate such a rotation. The two main factors that account for that difference are (1) the biomechanical relationships of the bones in the leg and the foot, and (2) the strength and flexibility of the connective tissue.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

wim said:


> While that may be true for a specific individual, it's definitely not true as a universal statement.
> 
> To put it simply, force transmitted to the pedal produces *abduction of the foot*, with the degree of that abduction depending on the individual. If the foot is constrained by a fixed cleat, it cannot abduct. That results in tibial rotation, whose outward sign is lateral movement of the knee joint ("the wobbles.")
> 
> People differ vastly in how much tibial rotation they experience with a fixed cleat, and in how much they can tolerate such a rotation. The two main factors that account for that difference are (1) the biomechanical relationships of the bones in the leg and the foot, and (2) the strength and flexibility of the connective tissue.


"If you have the fixed cleats set up right there is absolutely no difference during the pedal stroke."

I should have said that if you can biomechanically tolerate the fixed cleats,(without injury) because when I ride cleats with float, I don't even notice the float when I'm pedaling. Only when coasting and shaking my legs or when clipping out.



True, I was thinking very specifically and I agree for the most part but I'm not sure what you mean by "abduction" of the foot. How many degrees in the horizontal plane is the heel going to move from side to side in the various phases of the pedal stroke? I thought the main issue was how much pronation there was. 

You sound like you have a lot more technical training than I do however.

I was also thinking that going from fixed to floating cleats is a lot easier than going from floating to fixed, I guess in agreement with the O/P. If the pedal stroke is good it shouldn't really matter how much float there is, meaning there can't really be too much, but I get what you're saying about maybe there might be too little. It just seems to me that proper flexibility in something with as little range of movement as a pedal stroke is well within the capacity of most and the body does adapt.

When people try to do too much before their bodies have adapted to the work load they aren't going to optimize their strength and flexibility. People who are getting wear marks on cranks and chainstays from their heel probably do need to work on both the flexibility and/or strength of their lower legs and feet.

But again, you sound like a medical professional or at least someone who knows what you're talking about who sees the problems that can crop up and I was speaking more of my experiences in response to the O/P who was suggesting that there is some type of advantage to having side to side float for comfort or to prevent fatigue or injury.

I'm riding the fixed Campy cleats right now and after riding a time or two and getting them dialed in, find that in my case, there's no difference if I ride for an hour or 5 hours if I have float or not.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Chris-X said:


> I should have said that if you can biomechanically tolerate the fixed cleats,(without injury)


Yes, this makes sense now.

"Abduction" means "heel in and toe out" in one (the horizontal) plane. "Pronation" is a more complex movement in three planes and involving eversion, dorsiflexion and abduction. The speaker in the linked video is difficult to follow, but the animations are excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F9pBsHq_-M

I think we agree on more points than it would appear. For a particular rider there may, in fact, be no advantage at all to having float versus not having it. But when advising a group of riders, the notion of "reasonable amount of float can't hurt, so why not have it" is probably the better one.

I'm not a medical person. My knowledge of this comes from having translated from German into English a number of research papers on sports (including cycling) biomechanics. The only way to deliver a good translation in complex fields like this is to completely understand the original text. That usually takes several readings, as well as calls or emails to the author(s) and, if you're lucky, observation of the research. It's an interesting job if your interests are all over the place.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

wim said:


> Yes, this makes sense now.
> 
> "Abduction" means "heel in and toe out" in one (the horizontal) plane. "Pronation" is a more complex movement in three planes and involving eversion, dorsiflexion and abduction. The speaker in the linked video is difficult to follow, but the animations are excellent.
> 
> ...


I agree. I also think that the O/P might have been assuming an advantage to fixed cleats that doesn't exist, as the other poster pointed out, with many pro's riding speedplays which have a lot of float. Thanks.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

Can't you zero out the float on speedplays?


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

CabDoctor said:


> Can't you zero out the float on speedplays?


You can, on the Zero model. You could also set it to be fixed anywhere within a pretty wide range ~15º.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm also interested in how the "a lot of pros use non-floating cleats" conclusion was made.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

*Doesn't this guy represent "Pro's?"*



JustTooBig said:


> I'm also interested in how the "a lot of pros use non-floating cleats" conclusion was made.


Tech Brief – Look at Lance’s new pedals

“Lance’s concern with pedals is that they’re locked in,” said Coates. “He rides with a zero-float pedal, wants zero gap in the interface, and *wants to have the best power transfer possible*. And Levi attested that they were a tight fit with a good interface,”

People read something like the statement above and assume they are getting less than optimal "power transfer" with floating cleats, and that if they could "tolerate" fixed cleats they would somehow have some kind of advantage.

That's where this kind of stuff gets started....


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Chris-X said:


> People read something like the statement above and assume they are getting less than optimal "power transfer" with floating cleats, and that if they could "tolerate" fixed cleats they would somehow have some kind of advantage.
> 
> That's where this kind of stuff gets started....


Exactly. Even the pros aren't immune to BS marketing lingo (like "power transfer") passing itself of as science.

I have to admit that it's easy to initially _feel_ less "powerful" when going from fixed (or old-school slotted cleats, clips and straps) to float, especially to a non-centering float with a large range like Speedplays. I remember my introduction to float (weird!) and also my introduction to Speedplays (no way!) But as you know, the weirdness doesn't last more than one or two rides.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

JustTooBig said:


> I'm also interested in how the "a lot of pros use non-floating cleats" conclusion was made.


I started looking at the cleats of pro riders. They're color-coded:thumbsup: They're not the majority, but enough to notice


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

CabDoctor said:


> I started looking at the cleats of pro riders. They're color-coded


Thanks, makes sense if you got the color codes for certain pedals worked out. Still being on old Looks, I know for sure that black = fixed. Need to get up to speed with other "color-codable" cleats.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

CabDoctor said:


> I started looking at the cleats of pro riders. *They're color-coded*:thumbsup: They're not the majority, but enough to notice


thanks for the news flash.

that color coding you refer to covers one (Look) of the three primary types of pedals the pros use. Are you including the guys who don't ride Looks in your statement?


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Remember that even with a fixed cleat you have the flexibility of the shoe upper, the bio-mechanical play in the foot, in the ankle, and in the knee which will all allow a certain amount of movement.

Fixed or no-float cleats only fix the sole of the shoe; there is still 'play' in the system.


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