# Horners performance



## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

So whaddya think? I thought he would do alot better and to do so he will really have to pull something off in the Pyrns. I don't see that happening and I think he will get dropped for sure on the first day not to mention he got smoked in the prologue so the TT won't help much. Hincapie might beat his place as a domo


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## James OCLV (Jun 4, 2002)

Considering he's doing better than Lance did in HIS first Tour, I'd say he's doing pretty well.


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## Alpedhuez55 (Jun 29, 2005)

I think most of us have probably see him race in the US at one point or another. While you are happy he is doing OK in his first tour, you wonder what took him so long. 

He had great potential but never seemed to reach it on the international stage. Though he has a great record in domestic racing. He is looking great for a top 50 and it would be great to see him steal a stage.

You wonder what would have happenned in Mercury was given a TDF spot a few years ago. THey deserved a ride in the tour that year. They did well in the European Races they participated in and I think Horner won that pre season race stage race in Malaysia that year. Unfortunately, it pretty much took Mercury out of cycling sponsorship and was a big set back to the US pro racing.


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## James OCLV (Jun 4, 2002)

Personally, I can't stand Horner... he's an arrogant, cockly SOB. Not my kind of guy at all... I suspect that it was his attitude that kept him off of an international team this long.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

James OCLV said:


> Personally, I can't stand Horner... he's an arrogant, cockly SOB. Not my kind of guy at all... I suspect that it was his attitude that kept him off of an international team this long.


I tend to agree. I think he enjoyed being a "slightly" bigger fish in a small US pond for too long. He should have gone to Europe and race the big dogs a lot earlier. Now he is 33, and comparisons to LA, who was winning World champs at 21 and Tour stages at 23, is dubious at best.

Read recent interview where Horner whines about how Lance has access to massage and a private plane and therefore this must be the reason for his 6 TdF wins, while he, Horner is a poor unlucky guy who is a perennial underdog with no team and no resources. A world smallest violin is playing for Horner...


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

MaRider said:


> He should have gone to Europe and race the big dogs a lot earlier.


A) He did. B) He tried.


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## James OCLV (Jun 4, 2002)

MaRider said:


> I tend to agree. I think he enjoyed being a "slightly" bigger fish in a small US pond for too long. He should have gone to Europe and race the big dogs a lot earlier. Now he is 33, and comparisons to LA, who was winning World champs at 21 and Tour stages at 23, is dubious at best.
> 
> Read recent interview where Horner whines about how Lance has access to massage and a private plane and therefore this must be the reason for his 6 TdF wins, while he, Horner is a poor unlucky guy who is a perennial underdog with no team and no resources. A world smallest violin is playing for Horner...


My thoughts exactly.... that "whinny" attitude is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. How does Horner think Lance GOT access to massage and a private plane?


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

asgelle said:


> A) He did. B) He tried.


I am perfectly aware that he "went" to Europe in late 90ies, but only for a short time, was never a key player, came back home whining and then stayed in US for too long. He seemed to be perfectly content with his high placings at US pros, Sea Otter, SF and Tour of Georgia, but this year's TdS is the only european performance to his credit that I can remember. He went to Europe, didn't like it, came back and stayed in US wasting his best years beating up on local/national class riders, instead of facing international fields. 

The press make his first trip to the Tour as some sort of ugly-duckling/Cinderella story, but the reality is - Horner never really wanted it enough, until this year that is, and even then it was a last-minute thing.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

MaRider said:


> I am perfectly aware that he "went" to Europe in late 90ies, but only for a short time, was never a key player, came back home whining and then stayed in US for too long. He seemed to be perfectly content with his high placings at US pros, Sea Otter, SF and Tour of Georgia, but this year's TdS is the only european performance to his credit that I can remember. He went to Europe, didn't like it, came back and stayed in US wasting his best years beating up on local/national class riders, instead of facing international fields.
> 
> The press make his first trip to the Tour as some sort of ugly-duckling/Cinderella story, but the reality is - Horner never really wanted it enough, until this year that is, and even then it was a last-minute thing.


At least now he has a chance to redeem himself. I'm not talking about winning a stage or finishing high on GC. After talking all the trash about Lance's advantages in the Tour, he now can speak from experience. In his Tour diary, he has a chance to face up to the challenge let his first hand experience relay the true challenge of the tour. If he still speaks ignorantly, his place is solidified as someone incapable of learning a lesson. If he acknowleges a newfound respect, good for him.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

James OCLV said:


> Personally, I can't stand Horner... he's an arrogant, cockly SOB. Not my kind of guy at all... I suspect that it was his attitude that kept him off of an international team this long.


Yeah being arrogant and cocky really kept that guy Lance Armstrong off international teams. Do you know Chris personally or are you going on hearsay. Everytime i have ever talked to him hes be really down to earth and nice. Not that his being nice means you have to like him.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

MaRider said:


> I am perfectly aware that he "went" to Europe in late 90ies, but only for a short time,...


If you were aware he went to Europe why did you write, "He should have gone to Europe and race the big dogs a lot earlier." He was in his early 20's at the time, did you mean he should have gone as a teenager? Then you put "went" in quotes, what is that supposed to mean? He did what almost every other American pro has done, did his early training here then set up an apartment in Europe where he lived for the season before returning here for the off-season. Finally you say he only went for a short time. Do you consider 3 years a short time? You can like Horner or dislike him for whatever reasons you please, but you should at least present a somewhat accurate presentation of the facts.

And another thing. You make it sound like Horner chose to ride domestically and beat up on riders. This is not true. After regrouping from the Frances de Jeux experience, Horner has been trying hard to land a European ride. It wasn't until this year that he finally was able to overcome the stigma from the earler experience and get a contract.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*I'm thinking people...*



32and3cross said:


> Yeah being arrogant and cocky really kept that guy Lance Armstrong off international teams. Do you know Chris personally or are you going on hearsay. Everytime i have ever talked to him hes be really down to earth and nice. Not that his being nice means you have to like him.


I'm thinking that people get this cocky stuff because he really just tells it like it is. Like last year when McCarthy won the Olympic trial road race, he said something about Jason not being the strongest guy out there, which was true. But people focused on him saying "bad" things about Jason, which is really far from the truth, because Horner has always said that not always does the strongest guy win, but the smartest racer. But Horner seems to just speak his mind, and people take that as cocky.

I read the article too where he was talking about Lance's private plane and things like that. He's not whining about it, he's just saying that he seems pretty sure that these are some of the reasons why Lance can keep winning the Tour every year, is that he does have every advantage in his corner, and I believe he said something about wishing he could have the same, but he hasn't earned anything like that.

He tried to go to Europe, got homesick, as some people do, and came back without too many results. He did some have some promising results, but just didn't fit in well with his French team, and then Mercury collapsed, and when he returned to the US, teams were willing to pay him some serious bank to win races for them on the domestic turf, and he did, and was well paid to do. He chalks his early bad European campaign up to not being mature enough, and he really only blames himself for it. 

This year he sold his house and went to race in Europe. Why did he have to sell his house? Because the salary he is getting from Saunier is substantially less than what Webcor was paying him last year, he took this one last shot. Horner is a tough and smart bike racer, it's just too bad that it took him so long to get to Europe again, and he's doing pretty OK already in the few races he's had over there. A stage in the Tour de Suisse is not something easy to obtain.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Thats prety much the impression I have always gotten of Chris, he tells it like it is - he also works his @ss off. The salery he recived from Webcore was added to from the left over contract he had with Saturns parent company his contact was with the actual car company from what I have heard so when Saturn folded he was covered - smart. 



magnolialover said:


> I'm thinking that people get this cocky stuff because he really just tells it like it is. Like last year when McCarthy won the Olympic trial road race, he said something about Jason not being the strongest guy out there, which was true. But people focused on him saying "bad" things about Jason, which is really far from the truth, because Horner has always said that not always does the strongest guy win, but the smartest racer. But Horner seems to just speak his mind, and people take that as cocky.
> 
> I read the article too where he was talking about Lance's private plane and things like that. He's not whining about it, he's just saying that he seems pretty sure that these are some of the reasons why Lance can keep winning the Tour every year, is that he does have every advantage in his corner, and I believe he said something about wishing he could have the same, but he hasn't earned anything like that.
> 
> ...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Thats pretty much the impression I have always gotten of Chris, he tells it like it is - he also works his @ss off. The salery he recived from Webcore was added to from the left over contract he had with Saturns parent company his contact was with the actual car company from what I have heard so when Saturn folded he was covered - smart. 



magnolialover said:


> I'm thinking that people get this cocky stuff because he really just tells it like it is. Like last year when McCarthy won the Olympic trial road race, he said something about Jason not being the strongest guy out there, which was true. But people focused on him saying "bad" things about Jason, which is really far from the truth, because Horner has always said that not always does the strongest guy win, but the smartest racer. But Horner seems to just speak his mind, and people take that as cocky.
> 
> I read the article too where he was talking about Lance's private plane and things like that. He's not whining about it, he's just saying that he seems pretty sure that these are some of the reasons why Lance can keep winning the Tour every year, is that he does have every advantage in his corner, and I believe he said something about wishing he could have the same, but he hasn't earned anything like that.
> 
> ...


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*well*

regardless of his attitude I expected more. Everyone has their days racing a 3 week race BUT Horner has proven he can time his performance. I expected a top 20 or even 15. He is getting a little old as well so I can't see him doing much better than he did this year. Besides he had a very relaxed season considering


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## peterpen (May 5, 2004)

I don't think being in the top 30 at the TdF after having won a stage at the TdSuisse and having broken your leg in the spring is anything to be ashamed of.

Personally, I'm surprised he's even been present in some of the late, highly selective groups. If I were his DS, I'd tell him to take it easy for a few, go ahead and ride in the autobus, then go for a stage win. This is his first 3 week tour, no? There's not a whole lot on the NRC calendar that prepares a rider to be a GC contender of a GT. And considering that he has no support from his team and is basically in his first year in the Euro peloton (no favors yet, no alliances built up) his rides have been pretty amazing.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*hmm*

this is why thats not true

its not his first year,
Tom D. Michael Berry, George Hincapie and a long list of other North Americans who don't have Horners resume have done harder seasons. Besides his fracture this spring kept him from racing not riding and training................

no to expect more of a rider like that should be a given. Im not heartless but even he himself said top 10, among a dozen others who said the same thing. He had a cush season so far.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> I don't think being in the top 30 at the TdF after having won a stage at the TdSuisse and having broken your leg in the spring is anything to be ashamed of.


No lie. I've been excited watching Horner. He's running with the big, big dogs. Look who's either right there with him or behind him on GC. He'll attack again, I'm sure, and I wouldn't count him out for a stage.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Horner was a brash young man who went to Europe but did not like the people or the culture. It seemed that he was unwilling to put in the sacrifice to be a team slave and to learn the language, etc, etc.

He went home and kicked butt but team troubles left with no team. He had to join Webcor last year and was 'changing clothes in his car again for races' as he put it.

Now he's part of a Euro team and he's doing great!! He got injured but he recovered. He won a tough mountain stage in the Tour of Switzerland. He was hanging tough in the Tour up to stage 10 and was 25 in the GC.

Yesterday, in stage 11, he cracked like an egg. It's ok.

All in all. A great year so far. More power to him!!

francois

<img src="http://bluezy.com/carolineyang/TDF%202005%20Images/STG8/DSC_0751Horner.jpg">


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*right*

Horner wont break top 20 and George Hincapie beats him riding as a domo for a Texan

Chewbacca , what a wookie!

brrrrrrrlllaaaaaaaaaa

Chewy!

brrrrrrrrrlaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Chewbacca is that you?

brrrrrrrlaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

what a wookie!


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

*Chris Wherry*

I wish Wherry had a shot at a major GT while he was in his prime.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

seriously, what's your point? Horner is not the designated GC leader. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with that team, but he's a wild card at best. No one is working for him. 
Hincapie, one of the strongest men in the Euro peloton, in, what, at least his seventh tour, is three minutes ahead of Horner, in his first.
For a guy that couldn't get a ride to Europe for most of his career, I think that's pretty good.


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## StormShadow (Feb 27, 2005)

bill said:


> Hincapie, one of the strongest men in the Euro peloton, in, what, at least his seventh tour, is three minutes ahead of Horner, in his first.


And just how many pulls has Horner made at the front of the pelaton?


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

StormShadow said:


> And just how many pulls has Horner made at the front of the pelaton?


 what standard are you holding Horner to, exactly?
Hincapie likely is a bigger diesel. He also has worlds of experience more than Horner in this kind of a race. And that counts for an awful lot.
Horner has got his ass into some breaks (one that I remember, although wasn't there another?), and he's made some very select groups on the climbs.
Is he a phenomenon? Not really. But many of the first-time phenomenons already have crapped out. Horner isn't finished yet. If he did nothing else, he'd be respectable. Very respectable. But I expect more from him, yet.
you guys are tough.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

StormShadow said:


> And just how many pulls has Horner made at the front of the pelaton?


Comparing the two is inane. May I suggest we quit it.

fc


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*yeah*

I think Horner and Tammy Thomas should date!


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## StormShadow (Feb 27, 2005)

bill said:


> If he did nothing else, he'd be respectable. Very respectable. But I expect more from him, yet.


I agree with you. It was nice to see him able to hang with the elite pack when Lance pushed the pace (even if he couldn't finish with them). He certainly lasted longer than some of the other big name riders. I really hope he can do it again this weekend in the Pyrenees.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> I think Horner and Tammy Thomas should date!


what, does horner owe you money or something?


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*errrrrrr*

what? Bill are you Horners' attorney? 

He coulda been somebody, he COULDA been a contenda!

No this is where we discuss the TDF and you all take yourselves pretty seriously. I started this post as a flippant comment on Horner but nooooooooooooo you have to defend Horner of all people. No one defends Ulllrich when he is assaulted by RBR or Vino or ............

I tell ya what Bill, if Horner doesn't make it to top 25 but ends up LOSING places and finishes 30+ then you have to rgab your Haynes underwear and pull it over your head before you go to work, if he makes top 20m I'll jsut keep living life mmkay?

=D

I take it back, Horner should be dating the fat kid from the movie Dodge Ball!


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

magnolialover said:


> I'm thinking that people get this cocky stuff because he really just tells it like it is. Like last year when McCarthy won the Olympic trial road race, he said something about Jason not being the strongest guy out there, which was true. But people focused on him saying "bad" things about Jason, which is really far from the truth, because Horner has always said that not always does the strongest guy win, but the smartest racer. But Horner seems to just speak his mind, and people take that as cocky.
> 
> I read the article too where he was talking about Lance's private plane and things like that. He's not whining about it, he's just saying that he seems pretty sure that these are some of the reasons why Lance can keep winning the Tour every year, is that he does have every advantage in his corner, and I believe he said something about wishing he could have the same, but he hasn't earned anything like that.
> 
> ...


Bravo ML. That's a great summation. IMO, I think people bash Horner just because they hear that he's a guy that you SHOULD be bashing. It's rarely based on anything more specific then "That guy just rubs me the wrong way" or "He's cocky." Cocky compared to who? How many pros out there aren't cocky? Hell, how many Cat4s out there aren't cocky? People don't like him because they have been programmed by the "in crowd" not to like him.


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

James OCLV said:


> Personally, I can't stand Horner... he's an arrogant, cockly SOB. Not my kind of guy at all... I suspect that it was his attitude that kept him off of an international team this long.


You obviously don't know him and haven't met him, and are just listening to nasty, jealous rumors from the mill.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> I tell ya what Bill, if Horner doesn't make it to top 25 but ends up LOSING places and finishes 30+ then you have to rgab your Haynes underwear and pull it over your head before you go to work, if he makes top 20m I'll jsut keep living life mmkay?


as irresistible as I otherwise might find your offer, as Horner's attorney I must decline. 'Twould be unseemly to allow you to keep your life.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Horner has messed it up. Since he has never done the Tour or raced day after day for weeks, any thoughts of doing well in the G.C. were unrealistic. He'll likely be fighting fatigue as the Tour goes on. If he was going to do something he should have tried it before the last week.

His best strategy would have been to sandbag stage 10 and lose enough time to be allowed an escape on stage 11 or 12. There is always a break on the 14th of July and the stage is usually designed to promote that, so today may have been his best chance.

Of course in interviews he sounds like he merely wants to be able to say he finished.


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## dagger (Jul 22, 2004)

**cough...cough**



James OCLV said:


> Considering he's doing better than Lance did in HIS first Tour, I'd say he's doing pretty well.


Horner is almost 34 years old and this is his first Tour, and you want to compare him to LA....LMAO @ that!


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## fletchnj05 (Apr 27, 2005)

The Human G-Nome said:


> Bravo ML. That's a great summation. IMO, I think people bash Horner just because they hear that he's a guy that you SHOULD be bashing. It's rarely based on anything more specific then "That guy just rubs me the wrong way" or "He's cocky." Cocky compared to who? How many pros out there aren't cocky? Hell, how many Cat4s out there aren't cocky? People don't like him because they have been programmed by the "in crowd" not to like him.


CAN YOU PLEASE REPEAT THAT!!!!!


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## torquecal (Nov 9, 2002)

I'm certainly no Horner fan (you could probably list me as one of the guys that thinks him a little too arrogant or cocky or whatever), but I've got two thoughts on him so far this TDF;


1) He's really impressed me through the first week. Showed a lot of racing savyy and did his job very well. Sure he got dropped a bit on stage 11, but at least he was aggressive enough to get out of the pack and go out on a break with some of the best racers in the World. Getting dropped on a breakaway when a guy like Vinokurov is on the attack is really no shame at all!


2) He's never done a 3 week stage race. He's never completed a Grand Tour. I think right now he's beginning to feel why the TDF is such a tough race, and, in a way, I feel sorry for him. He started out pretty durned arrogantly. Pre - race interviews said he'd shoot for a stage win, and then "maybe" look at GC standings. One interview early in the race had him claiming that he was shooting for a top ten on GC  I think he was deluding himself.


Heck, if time proves me wrong, so be it, I'll be happy for the guy.... but I'll probably never be a fan of his.


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## Silver222 (Aug 5, 2004)

I still can't figure out how some people think Horner was whining in that interview. He was talking about the way that no one else lays out the coin that Lance does to make sure he has all the advantages possible, even though a guy like Ulrich could do that.

But, now I'm whining about someone who was whining about Horner whining...hmm.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*ok*

I never said I didn't like the guy, I just said I wanted and hoped and expected more outta him this Tour. Otherwise, I really only care about Horner when he is on his bike, off it he can dress in fish net panies for all I care. As a racer I expected a better placing thas all foos!

Human G has a point as well as ML, most roadie racers are pricks and the ones from Utah, jsut plain weird LOL =D

PeAcE LoVe aNd HaIr GrEaSe


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## fletchnj05 (Apr 27, 2005)

*Horner's in a break (Stage 13)*

Will is stick I doubt it, but as they say no guts no glory!


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

asgelle said:


> If you were aware he went to Europe why did you write, "He should have gone to Europe and race the big dogs a lot earlier." He was in his early 20's at the time, did you mean he should have gone as a teenager?


No. His try in his 20ies was unsuccessful, but I do not blame him for this. 

However, since then he limited his racing to US. Now at 33 he finally decides to go to TdS and TdF, and should be applauded for this move, but it should have happened earlier. Maybe 3-4 years ago? This is what I meant by "earlier", earlier as opposed to 33. I don't have his resume handy but he spent at least the last 5 years racing exclusively within US and Canada. You just don't get any kind of development like that.

You are correct though, I don't like Horner's whining/cocky attitude. I think I had a much better opinion of him before I started reading his diary. Something about him just rubs me the wrong way. The hype about "Horner for podium" or even "Horner for top 10" posts here and on other boards after he has two admittedly very solid days in TdS didn't help either.

Please don't make it sound as if his career was somehow controlled by other people. He clearly has plenty of talent and could have found a team to ride for. For whatever reason he chose not to, until now. 

Good break move today though...


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Broken leg...*



CARBON110 said:


> this is why thats not true
> 
> its not his first year,
> Tom D. Michael Berry, George Hincapie and a long list of other North Americans who don't have Horners resume have done harder seasons. Besides his fracture this spring kept him from racing not riding and training................
> ...


Actually, his broken leg did keep him from training for a few weeks until it had healed sufficiently enough so that he could go out and ride without too much pain. I believe he was off the bike for 3-4 weeks, and only had about 3 weeks of training prior to US Pro in PA. I'd say he's done quite a good mid season comeback. A stage of the Tour de Suisse ain't nothing to sneeze at, and he ALMOST made it today, except he started playing grab ass with Chavanel too early. Oh well. It was close at least.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

MaRider said:


> Please don't make it sound as if his career was somehow controlled by other people. He clearly has plenty of talent and could have found a team to ride for. For whatever reason he chose not to, until now.


Horner has campaigned loudly and publicly for a spot on a European team for the last several years, but couldn't get a contract until late last year. The reason he signed for Webcor last year was because he was waiting for a European contract that never came through. You can keep repeating that he chose to ride domestically but I've never seen evidence of this, so tell me, what is your source.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

asgelle said:


> Horner has campaigned loudly and publicly for a spot on a European team for the last several years, but couldn't get a contract until late last year. The reason he signed for Webcor last year was because he was waiting for a European contract that never came through. You can keep repeating that he chose to ride domestically but I've never seen evidence of this, so tell me, what is your source.


Perhaps Horner doesn't have the best kind of reputation on a personal level, as that's the only way I can explain why over the past 5 years, despite "loud and public" campaign by Horner, not a single Euro team wanted to recruit him? How else would you explain it? 
I see plenty of riders getting on pro euro teams with much, much less of a resume than Horner's got. 

Without knowing exact details of the type of contract that Horner wanted and what was offered or not offered to him, I simply refuse to believe that an athlete of Horner's caliber wanted to go to any european team so badly and yet all of the teams kept rejecting him. Seems to me that a more logical explanation (and you can draw your own opinions) is that he was quite happy racing in US, and didn't seriously attempt to get into euro peloton until last year.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

MaRider said:


> Seems to me that a more logical explanation (and you can draw your own opinions) is that he was quite happy racing in US, and didn't seriously attempt to get into euro peloton until last year.


In other words, you don't want to let the facts get in the way of your conclusions; you've made up your mind and your sticking to it. The print record is clear; there are many quotes from Horner and others that he tried for years to get a European contract and couldn't and I'm not aware of anything saying he chose to remain in the U.S. given the opportunity to go to Europe. In spite of that, you will continue to argue based only on your assumptions that he was offered contracts and turned them down.

By the way, I've seen many less talented riders given pro contracts in the U.S. over much more talented ones. There's a lot more going on than who may be the best rider.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Bravo Horner!!

All this talk about Horner not going to Europe because of this and because of that is so last year! 

He is in Europe now and leaving it all out on the road. He broke his leg, he won a swiss mountain stage, He hung on the key climbs. He cracked like an egg. He went on a brilliant breakaway and got caught. Bravo, bravo.

Sieze the day I say and he is doing just that. The past is the past. I think we are lucky to see him race at the top level this year and make things exciting. Try, try and learn, learn. Can't wait to see what he does next year!!!

Hope he gets a great massage tonight for the stage tomorrow.

francois


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

asgelle said:


> In other words, you don't want to let the facts get in the way of your conclusions; you've made up your mind and your sticking to it. The print record is clear; there are many quotes from Horner and others that he tried for years to get a European contract and couldn't and I'm not aware of anything saying he chose to remain in the U.S. given the opportunity to go to Europe. In spite of that, you will continue to argue based only on your assumptions that he was offered contracts and turned them down.
> 
> By the way, I've seen many less talented riders given pro contracts in the U.S. over much more talented ones. There's a lot more going on than who may be the best rider.


I form my opinion on variety of information - like you say "there's a lot more going on" here, and I will not blindly believe Horner's press statements if it seems to contradict common sense. Don't believe everything you read in cycling interviews.

There's a saying - "once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern".

Bottom line - if he cannot find a contract until he is 33 years old, after supposedly many years (what, 5 years?) of vocal campaign, he has only himself to blame. I am sure in his own mind it's a world-wide conspiracy to keep him away, but that doesn't explain how plenty of other less accomplished riders find contracts.

I would like to stop this discussion, but I think the question of why Horner didn't go to Europe when he was at the height, instead of at the end of his career is asked not just by me, but by many others. 

Whatever the reasons, I am afraid Horner's legacy will be that of underachiever who spent his best years limiting himself to US races instead of facing the big dogs in Europe. This is unfortunate, as I am sure he could have accomplished much more than his Wachovia and Sea Otter classic wins. He coulda be a contendah.


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## Reith (Jul 10, 2005)

Horner is the Alexi Grewal of our time. The anti-hero of cycling. Without the anti-hero, there can be no hero.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

James OCLV said:


> Personally, I can't stand Horner... he's an arrogant, cockly SOB. Not my kind of guy at all... I suspect that it was his attitude that kept him off of an international team this long.


Not important.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

James OCLV said:


> Considering he's doing better than Lance did in HIS first Tour, I'd say he's doing pretty well.


Most are lacking perspective on this question. He has done very well. He put in a gutsy effort today. Too bad he hesitated at he end. Two months ago almost no one in Euro peloton knew who he was but now they all do. I guarantee he will get a much much better contract next year.

I don't give a rat's quarter panel about his personality.


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

FWIW, I was talking to some guys from Jelly Belly, trying to get them to dish on guys in the domestic peloton. I asked specifically about Horner. They said, hey, Chris is all right. They were not so charitable to some others. Some of it may have been about just being tired of HealthNet's domination (did I say HealthNet?), although they protested not so.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

magnolialover said:


> I'm thinking that people get this cocky stuff because he really just tells it like it is. Like last year when McCarthy won the Olympic trial road race, he said something about Jason not being the strongest guy out there, which was true. But people focused on him saying "bad" things about Jason, which is really far from the truth, because Horner has always said that not always does the strongest guy win, but the smartest racer. But Horner seems to just speak his mind, and people take that as cocky.
> 
> I read the article too where he was talking about Lance's private plane and things like that. He's not whining about it, he's just saying that he seems pretty sure that these are some of the reasons why Lance can keep winning the Tour every year, is that he does have every advantage in his corner, and I believe he said something about wishing he could have the same, but he hasn't earned anything like that.
> 
> ...


Agreed. ...and he will get a much much better contact for next year if doesn't get one over the next two weeks. He'll have a nice home here and there after his perfoemce over the last six weeks.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

MaRider said:


> I am perfectly aware that he "went" to Europe in late 90ies, but only for a short time, was never a key player, came back home whining and then stayed in US for too long. He seemed to be perfectly content with his high placings at US pros, Sea Otter, SF and Tour of Georgia, but this year's TdS is the only european performance to his credit that I can remember. He went to Europe, didn't like it, came back and stayed in US wasting his best years beating up on local/national class riders, instead of facing international fields.
> 
> The press make his first trip to the Tour as some sort of ugly-duckling/Cinderella story, but the reality is - Horner never really wanted it enough, until this year that is, and even then it was a last-minute thing.


That's one hell of a judgement to be making from that overstuffed couch your sitting on.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> Yeah being arrogant and cocky really kept that guy Lance Armstrong off international teams. Do you know Chris personally or are you going on hearsay. Everytime i have ever talked to him hes be really down to earth and nice. Not that his being nice means you have to like him.



agreed.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

francois said:


> Comparing the two is inane. May I suggest we quit it.
> 
> fc


Exactly! Ghee whiz! He's done more than Merckx Jr. this year but we don't hear people bashing him from their overstuffed sofas. Some folks here need to get clue. Horner is still in race and being very agressive. Valverde has been impressive but he's out now. Do any of you Cat 3 crit champs want to criticize him too? Some of you slam him for his comments but they're actually more balanced than what most of you couch DSs are saying. Good grief!


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

rocco said:


> Most are lacking perspective on this question. He has done very well. He put in a gutsy effort today. Too bad he hesitated at he end. Two months ago almost no one in Euro peloton knew who he was but now they all do. I guarantee he will get a much much better contract next year.


Agreed! Can you say millionaire. Team leader bling, bling!!

I think his wife and new baby can hang around Europe for that.

fc


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

rocco said:


> That's one hell of a judgement to be making from that overstuffed couch your sitting on.


Isn't that what we are doing here by definition? Playing armchair director sportiffs?

Jan Ullrich can beat me in a bike race with his baby and his new girlfriend in tow. I hope it doesn't mean I cannot discuss his apparent lack of preparation (mental or physical) for this year's Tour. Or is PC police officer like yourself will be there to arrest me?

Red Sox lost to Yankees yesterday, mostly because of Schilling. I am disappointed. Can I please be allowed to weigh in with my opinion on this even if I can't pitch better than him?

Regardless of Cinderella story that some of you guys make it out to be, Horner is a classic example of a big fish in a small pond phenomenon.

Say I have a friend who was laid off. He can't find a job for a month. Six months. A year. College educated, computer degree, smart, healthy. 5 years later he still works at Burger King, claiming there are no jobs out there for him, no matter how hard he looks. Somehow I doubt it.

You think I am a sceptic, I think you are naive. If he could go to Europe at 24 and could go to Europe at 33, he could go to Europe at 29, if he really, REALLY wanted it. 
But then again, I am just talking sitting on my overstuffed couch here...


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

MaRider said:


> Isn't that what we are doing here by definition? Playing armchair director sportiffs?
> 
> Jan Ullrich can beat me in a bike race with his baby and his new girlfriend in tow. I hope it doesn't mean I cannot discuss his apparent lack of preparation (mental or physical) for this year's Tour. Or is PC police officer like yourself will be there to arrest me?
> 
> ...


I know you are sceptical and you are naive one but if you want to blow hot air from your couch of course you're free to do so but I'm free to say your farts stink too.

Can someone light a match in here?


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

> Regardless of Cinderella story that some of you guys make it out to be, Horner is a classic example of a big fish in a small pond phenomenon.
> 
> Say I have a friend who was laid off. He can't find a job for a month. Six months. A year. College educated, computer degree, smart, healthy. 5 years later he still works at Burger King, claiming there are no jobs out there for him, no matter how hard he looks. Somehow I doubt it.


the difference being that there scillions of jobs for the most of us. for pro cyclists, lots of good talent can't buy a thrill. There are a couple of hundred places in the pro peloton. And they draw from the whole damn world.
Maybe you're saying that Horner could have, if he wanted to, turned down his fairly good run in, as you say, the little pond, making good money, living where he knows the language, etc., etc., and traded it in for something somewhere down in the dope-addled byways of the lower echelon European peloton. Maybe. Doesn't sound so attractive to me. So he may have waited for something a little better. 
I'll say it again. I'm excited to watch him. 




> You think I am a sceptic, I think you are naive. If he could go to Europe at 24 and could go to Europe at 33, he could go to Europe at 29, if he really, REALLY wanted it.
> But then again, I am just talking sitting on my overstuffed couch here...


can't make someone want you. at least not on your schedule. I think you, my friend, are being a bit naive.


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

*As one who has criticized Horner in the past*

I'd like to chime in to say I am now rooting for him. My criticism was an e-mail posted on another Web site that said something to the effect of "he may be an arrogant jerk"--a direct response to his rant after the elite road race. To Jed's point, I have only seen him race in person once and do not know him. 

I still think his comments on that day showed a lack of sportsmanship and smarts. Acting like a professional is just as important as riding like one, especially in a country where pro sponsorship and public interest for your sport are not overly strong. 

That said, his attitude as well as his ability are now known quantities. If I were a DS I would want him on my team, and if I were a pro I would want him in the same jersey as mine. If I were a team owner, I would respect his competitive spirit and ask him to consider his words more carefully. He knows racing, he obviously prepares himself in a very professional way, and the fact that his feet occasionally go into his mouth can be considered "character" as long as he keeps riding this hard. 

Here's hoping someone over there is smart enough to give him the contract he's earning.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

bill said:


> the difference being that there scillions of jobs for the most of us. for pro cyclists, lots of good talent can't buy a thrill. There are a couple of hundred places in the pro peloton. And they draw from the whole damn world.
> Maybe you're saying that Horner could have, if he wanted to, turned down his fairly good run in, as you say, the little pond, making good money, living where he knows the language, etc., etc., and traded it in for something somewhere down in the dope-addled byways of the lower echelon European peloton. Maybe. Doesn't sound so attractive to me. So he may have waited for something a little better.
> I'll say it again. I'm excited to watch him.
> 
> ...


That's a good reading of the situation.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

fastfullback said:


> I'd like to chime in to say I am now rooting for him. My criticism was an e-mail posted on another Web site that said something to the effect of "he may be an arrogant jerk"--a direct response to his rant after the elite road race. To Jed's point, I have only seen him race in person once and do not know him.
> 
> I still think his comments on that day showed a lack of sportsmanship and smarts. Acting like a professional is just as important as riding like one, especially in a country where pro sponsorship and public interest for your sport are not overly strong.
> 
> ...



He earned a lot respect from a whole lot of people today.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

bill said:


> the difference being that there scillions of jobs for the most of us. for pro cyclists, lots of good talent can't buy a thrill.
> 
> can't make someone want you. at least not on your schedule. I think you, my friend, are being a bit naive.


If you are THAT good (and Horner IS good), teams will want you. 

I feel this topic is getting hot - I guess I stepped on some people's nerves. 
Rocco says I farted (wasn't me, maybe the dog did it?!) while putting the cushioning of my couch in question!!! 

I am sure if we were talking about champion of Crapakinstan deciding to sit out and beat on national Crapakistanians, instead of mixing it up with big boys in Europe plenty of people would agree with me. As american fans some may feel different. 

Whatever, I stand by my words. 

Some people would do anything to race in Europe - Eki used to race for team "Word Perfect" or something equally obscure, for gods sake! 

But you guys can't have it both ways - either Horner sucks and he is not or at least wasn't among top 200 or 500 or 1000 or whatever bike riders in the world, and that's why euro teams didn't pick it. Or, he didn't want to go to Europe because he was quite happy beating up on US boys. Or, after his previous euro experience he is now well-known as an ******* among teams and no team wanted to have him, no matter how good he really is. 

Either way - bottom line, perhaps he coulda, woulda, shoulda, but we'll never know how good he realy was at his prime compared to top guys.

I was rooting for him to stay away today, by the way. But it doesn't change much in my "big fish in little pond" theory.


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## Reith (Jul 10, 2005)

rocco said:


> Do any of you Cat 3 crit champs want to criticize him too? Some of you slam him for his comments but they're actually more balanced than what most of you couch DSs are saying. Good grief!


Dude, my name is Greg Lemond. Who are you?


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*hmmm*

Francois question: ahem

Are you and Coolhand on prozac or are you both always so level headed? I'm going to come over tonight around 2 am and slash your tires THEN we will see how bright your bright side is tomorrow hmmuhhu mmmmhuhuhuhuhhahah!

ROCK YOUR FRIGN SOX OFF!


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## bill (Feb 5, 2004)

I know a guy who happened to start as a junior in my little club, went on to a couple of different clubs, finally riding both for Team Snow Valley (now a bona fide pro team -- wasn't then), and for the USA Espoirs in Europe. Won the Elite RR Championships. Toiled for a while as a Euro"pro" for a while on a Belgian squad -- I don't even know their name -- was on a short list of guys for Ofoto, I think, domestically, some others, and then some Div I and II teams, including other European teams, and even USPS, but, you know, there was Danielson and Zabriskie, and O'Neill, and others, and he didn't make that cut. For whatever reason. Some guys he used to beat are now riding on these teams. Is it because he didn't want it? He wanted it pretty darn bad. But he didn't have the luck to fit exactly what a better team was looking for at that time, he was disillusioned by the doping in Europe and by the prejudice against Americans, and now he is done with it all. 
And Horner made it through all that. It is not an easy life. Give the guy a little credit.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

rocco said:


> Agreed. ...and he will get a much much better contact for next year if doesn't get one over the next two weeks. He'll have a nice home here and there after his perfoemce over the last six weeks.


I believe will also turn 34 this fall. Sorry to be such a sceptic, but this is too much hype for me... I'd rather be excited about someone like Bobby Julich or George Hincapie than Horner.


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## Reith (Jul 10, 2005)

bill said:


> I know a guy who happened to start as a junior in my little club, went on to a couple of different clubs, finally riding both for Team Snow Valley (now a bona fide pro team -- wasn't then), and for the USA Espoirs in Europe. Won the Elite RR Championships. Toiled for a while as a Euro"pro" for a while on a Belgian squad -- I don't even know their name -- was on a short list of guys for Ofoto, I think, domestically, some others, and then some Div I and II teams, including other European teams, and even USPS, but, you know, there was Danielson and Zabriskie, and O'Neill, and others, and he didn't make that cut. For whatever reason. Some guys he used to beat are now riding on these teams. Is it because he didn't want it? He wanted it pretty darn bad. But he didn't have the luck to fit exactly what a better team was looking for at that time, he was disillusioned by the doping in Europe and by the prejudice against Americans, and now he is done with it all.
> And Horner made it through all that. It is not an easy life. Give the guy a little credit.


Concur 100%. The best American cyclists do not necessarily make it in Europe. It is very difficult and many factors need to line up just so. Same in basketball. There are tons of street players that schooled the best players in the world but never made it to the pros.


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## magnolialover (Jun 2, 2004)

*Criticism of Olympic selection race...*



fastfullback said:


> I'd like to chime in to say I am now rooting for him. My criticism was an e-mail posted on another Web site that said something to the effect of "he may be an arrogant jerk"--a direct response to his rant after the elite road race. To Jed's point, I have only seen him race in person once and do not know him.
> 
> I still think his comments on that day showed a lack of sportsmanship and smarts. Acting like a professional is just as important as riding like one, especially in a country where pro sponsorship and public interest for your sport are not overly strong.
> 
> ...


See, that's the funny thing. People see his comments about the Olympic selection race, him saying that McCarthy wasn't the strongest on that day (he wasn't), and that people were riding against him specifically (they were) and that the racing was negative (most certainly was, as the field let McCarthy roll away on his own and nobody chased at all), and he's a jerk for calling the race like it was? I don't get it. He also went on to say, which most people didn't bother listening to, that he was disappointed that he didn't win, but that McCarthy was a smart racer that day, and a deserving winner, he made the right move, and it stuck. He didn't say anything negative, but people perceive that he did. He's also of the opinion that it's not always the strongest person who wins a bike race, but the smartest, and I believe he credited McCarthy that day with being the smartest racer out there. 

Anyway, Horner is a very smart racer. Everyone saying he should have gone to Europe sooner has to look at the situation he was in. Domestic teams were giving him tons o' money to ride in the US for them. He's not stupid, and with a family to help provide for, would you take the big paycheck and endorsements, and prize money from winning umpteen races, or would you take a severe pay cut, move everything to Europe and try again? Hell, I'd take the large paycheck over here any day of the week. I'm sure he was thinking the same thing. Who wouldn't do that? I could see Horner someday being one of the better DS's in the business though, because he knows racing, he knows how to prepare for races, and he knows how to motivate people on his team. Look at Webcor last year when he rode for them. People were laughing at the remainder of his team for the most part, but when they started laying the smack down on HealthNet and other big US pro teams, they weren't laughing anymore, and I attribute that mostly to Horner rallying the troops, and getting more out of his guys than would normally be possible.


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## 3rensho (Aug 26, 2003)

*Horner's slick.*

And he's worked his ass off. 
He's going to parlay that work into an even better gig next year. The U.S. sells in Europe and Chris Horner will find lots of takers for his skill and his quotes.


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

francois said:


> Agreed! Can you say millionaire. Team leader bling, bling!!
> 
> I think his wife and new baby can hang around Europe for that.
> 
> fc


When did Horner get married?


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## rePhil (Jun 20, 2002)

*Horners temper*

Horner was fined 200 Swiss francs for "incorrect behavior towards a rider" for reportedly throwing a water bottle at Da Cruz.

I can understand his frustration, but it's no excuse. This will fuel the fire about him being hotheaded.


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

StormShadow said:


> And just how many pulls has Horner made at the front of the pelaton?



Ummm...that would be one big he-man pull he took today!


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

Picshooter said:


> Horner was fined 200 Swiss francs for "incorrect behavior towards a rider" for reportedly throwing a water bottle at Da Cruz.
> 
> I can understand his frustration, but it's no excuse. This will fuel the fire about him being hotheaded.


Oh no! A hotheaded pro athlete!

See, now I love that sort of stuff. I'm a huge fan of Horner's and was pulling really hard for him. Unfortunately he didn't hear me when I told him to stop putzing around in the last 1km!

As for his career, remember that he was a leader on the 2 best-funded U.S. teams, Mercury and Saturn, one of which had Div. aspirations and the other which rode in at least a few international races. He only spent 1 year in the "wilderness" with Webcor. If you recall there were a number of Saturn riders who took a big cut. Not a bad career for someone who is sort of a "tweener," not really a sprinter or a climber or a power rider. 

Not getting to Europe sooner...Americans only get one shot (unless they're on Disco/Postal, or finish on the TDF podium), he had his, and is darn lucky to get another. He's making the most of it, and good for him. He's got more "face time" in a month than just about anyone other than LA or TH has had in the last 5 years. 

Earlier someone compared him with Hincapie. Good old boring "Big George," never a discouraging word, never goes on the attack -- and never wins a race of consequence. I'd rather watch Horner shoot off his mouth, launch an audacious attack in his first grand tour and fail with honor than see Hincapie suck wheels and finish 8th in some semi-classic for the 10th year in a row. 

(Note exaggeration for effect. GH is pretty darn good, but I'm trying to make a point.)

Nightmare team photo op: Leipheimer and Horner, helmets off, with no suntan!


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*huh*

Peter 1, 

just curious, after reading your post I thought you might be suffering from explosive diahrea..........


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

CARBON110 said:


> Peter 1,
> 
> just curious, after reading your post I thought you might be suffering from explosive diahrea..........


no, just explosive logorrhea. 

I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. ("excessive talkativeness, especially when incoherent and uncontrollable")


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

MaRider said:


> Some people would do anything to race in Europe - Eki used to race for team "Word Perfect" or something equally obscure, for gods sake!


Hmmmm, you seem to be showing your naivete about pro racing here. Word Perfect became Novell and then Rabobank in it's current form, much like Discovery was Postal Service. Same big boss Jan Raas and team structure. At the time they were probably the most well funded team in procycling. Learn something new everyday.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

OnTheRivet said:


> Word Perfect became Novell and then Rabobank in it's current form...


And it featured a bunch of obscure, no name racers, who were just desperate to get a euro contract. You know, riders like Erik Dekker, Michael Boogerd, Abdujaperov (sp?), some putz named Ekimov, and that classics guys I always remember as HooeyDooey because I can't recall his name. I'm sure no one has ever heard of those guys.

I think before it was Wordperfect it was Panasonic. Not sure about that one.


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## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

Anyone think Disco was pushing the pace a bit towards the end of todays stage because Chris was away? We all know how Lance likes to feed on negative comments and maybe this was a bit of revenge? I just thought it was a bit odd to see them at the front the way they were, almost like they were preparing to lead out a sprint but maybe it was just to keep Lance and the team safe.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

cyclejim said:


> Anyone think Disco was pushing the pace a bit towards the end of todays stage because Chris was away? We all know how Lance likes to feed on negative comments and maybe this was a bit of revenge? I just thought it was a bit odd to see them at the front the way they were, almost like they were preparing to lead out a sprint but maybe it was just to keep Lance and the team safe.


Perhaps safety first but maybe killing two birds with one stone.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

cyclejim said:


> Anyone think Disco was pushing the pace a bit towards the end of todays stage because Chris was away?


Speculation is fine, but at least acknowledge some facts. The gap was dropping slowly but steadily before Discovery took over the front. Once they were in the lead, the gap stabilized and then grew by a few seconds. Does that sound like they were pushing the pace? Is it more likely they were trying to chase Horner down or slow the chase to help him.


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## rePhil (Jun 20, 2002)

*Only lost.....*

29 minutes today.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

*cha ching!*



rocco said:


> Most are lacking perspective on this question. He has done very well. He put in a gutsy effort today. Too bad he hesitated at he end. Two months ago almost no one in Euro peloton knew who he was but now they all do. I guarantee he will get a much much better contract next year.
> 
> I don't give a rat's quarter panel about his personality.


Looks like he's getting that contact with Quick Step.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

rocco said:


> Looks like he's getting that contact with Quick Step.


According to cyclingnews, he's signing with Davitamon, not Quickstep.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

Fredke said:


> According to cyclingnews, he's signing with Davitamon, not Quickstep.


Oops my bad... meant to say Davitamon-Lotto. Guess I'm stuck in '04 with Quickstep-Davitamon.


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