# Did Lance just send a message to Contador?



## TheDon

Lance just put some time into Contador. Contador's now behind him in the GC, will Astana have a new captain now?


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## atimido

I think he sent a message to more than just Contador... He's still got game all you haters!


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## Andrea138

Yeah, the message is "I'm here as a Volunteer for Livestrong, but I still want to put time on my team captain."


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## Wookiebiker

TheDon said:


> Lance just put some time into Contador. Contador's now behind him in the GC, will Astana have a new captain now?


The message sent was...if you want to win the TDF...get your butt up front so you don't miss the big breaks!!!

I think they are still a two headed team right now and it won't be seperated until maybe the 2nd or 3rd week after the 2nd mountain top finish.


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## mohair_chair

TheDon said:


> Lance just put some time into Contador. Contador's now behind him in the GC, will Astana have a new captain now?


It's all over for Contador. I don't see him playing a support role, so he'll likely drop out of the race tomorrow.


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## Len J

It depends on how it happened.

I suspect that Contador got caught napping a little back in the peleton..........by the time he realized the break was away.

Anyone watching know if LA took turns pushing the break or was it all Colombia?

I don't think this says anything except LA was in the right place at the right time and was smart enough to take advantage of it.

len


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## Wookiebiker

Len J said:


> It depends on how it happened.
> 
> I suspect that Contador got caught napping a little back in the peleton..........by the time he realized the break was away.
> 
> Anyone watching know if LA took turns pushing the break or was it all Colombia?
> 
> I don't think this says anything except LA was in the right place at the right time and was smart enough to take advantage of it.
> 
> len


Looked like it was all Columbia, Skill/Shimano and two of the Astana guys (not Lance). Everybody else just stayed out of the wind.


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## TheDon

Len J said:


> It depends on how it happened.
> 
> I suspect that Contador got caught napping a little back in the peleton..........by the time he realized the break was away.
> 
> Anyone watching know if LA took turns pushing the break or was it all Colombia?
> 
> I don't think this says anything except LA was in the right place at the right time and was smart enough to take advantage of it.
> 
> len


Everyone worked the break.


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## j3fri

lance with all the experiences has shown contador how to win tour de france..


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## j3fri

Len J said:


> It depends on how it happened.
> 
> I suspect that Contador got caught napping a little back in the peleton..........by the time he realized the break was away.
> 
> Anyone watching know if LA took turns pushing the break or was it all Colombia?
> 
> I don't think this says anything except LA was in the right place at the right time and was smart enough to take advantage of it.
> 
> len


lance,hushovd and his teammate,cav,mark renshaw and cancellara and a few others didnt work at all..


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## Gripped

Wookiebiker said:


> Looked like it was all Columbia, Skill/Shimano and two of the Astana guys (not Lance). Everybody else just stayed out of the wind.


I'm pretty sure I saw Lance, Popo, and George cycle through the front more than a few times -- just like the old days. Columbia was driving but Popo and Lance were pitching in.

Fabian sat on for the ride -- not surprising since the Schlecks got caught out.


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## Len J

j3fri said:


> lance,hushovd and his teammate,cav,mark renshaw and cancellara and a few others didnt work at all..


That's what I figured........LA took advantage of a Colombia play.

Contador got caught napping.

No message from one to the other.

Len


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## atimido

Wookiebiker said:


> Looked like it was all Columbia, Skill/Shimano and two of the Astana guys (not Lance). Everybody else just stayed out of the wind.



What were you watching? He was there, he just didn't sprint to the finish. Pay attention. :mad2:


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## JohnHemlock

Wookiebiker said:


> The message sent was...if you want to win the TDF...get your butt up front so you don't miss the big breaks!!!


Exactly.


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## rocco

TheDon said:


> Lance just put some time into Contador. Contador's now behind him in the GC, will Astana have a new captain now?



Yeah... Wake up sleepy head.


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## Len J

Gripped said:


> I'm pretty sure I saw Lance, Popo, and George cycle through the front more than a few times -- just like the old days. Columbia was driving but Popo and Lance were pitching in.
> 
> Fabian sat on for the ride -- not surprising since the Schlecks got caught out.


Cycling through and working the break are 2 different things.....which was it?

len


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## JohnHemlock

mohair_chair said:


> It's all over for Contador. I don't see him playing a support role, so he'll likely drop out of the race tomorrow.


If he doesn't just asphyxiate himself with a chain.


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## rocco

Andrea138 said:


> Yeah, the message is "I'm here as a Volunteer for Livestrong, but I still want to put time on my team captain."



LOL... facepalm.


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## Wookiebiker

atimido said:


> What were you watching? He was there, he just didn't sprint to the finish. Pay attention. :mad2:


The same race you were. Lance wasn't up front, but he was telling everybody to rotate to keep the break away. However, he had his workers doing the pulling instead of him. Cancelera didn't do any work at all, just as Lance...they were saving energy for tomorrow while making up time on the rest of the field.


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## mark4501

Johan said Contador is the team leader the other day, and after his performance in the TT he earned it. 

if the tables were turned....Lance the announced team leader and ahead after TT, and if he got caught napping like Contador did....he would be screaming at Contador to slow down and help him pull back to lead group. no way he'd allow his subordinate to gain time on him.

I think Lance has a double standard that serves only himself. that was not a "team" move today on his part.


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## rocco

Len J said:


> It depends on how it happened.
> 
> I suspect that Contador got caught napping a little back in the peleton..........by the time he realized the break was away.
> 
> Anyone watching know if LA took turns pushing the break or was it all Colombia?
> 
> I don't think this says anything except LA was in the right place at the right time and was smart enough to take advantage of it.
> 
> len



Exactly... Wake up Alberto. Armstrong didn't do any pulls... pretty much all Team Colombia.


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## Gripped

Len J said:


> Cycling through and working the break are 2 different things.....which was it?
> 
> len


They were taking meaningful pulls. It looked like perhaps half of the escapees were really working the front. That included Columbia (minus Cav), the Skill boys, and Popo and Lance. During the time the gap went from 20 to 30 seconds, Popo drilled it for a bit.


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## rocco

deleted


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## ttug

*WTF? the man is 3rd???*

Ya know, I think we might be seeing a rift, this is not a swell thing to do, putting time into your captain. THIS COULD BE A COOL TDF.

Lance is now 3rd......Not a Lance fan, but the drama is here.


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## wheezer

Lance tapped through once early on, but about halfway into the break, he definitely signaled for Popo and Zubeldia to pitch in. Cantador looked a little PO'd in the group and gave a nudge to a Rabo rider to get up toward the front. Looked more out of frustration than anything else. 

The divisions within Astana are turning out to be just the spectacle that was predicted. Not only did Lance have the head and instincts to be in the decisive move, but so too were two of the guys, Popo and Zubeldia, who seem to be there more for him than 'berto. 

What a surprising stage today. Definitely enjoyable.


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## fracisco

*Well, cyclingnews reports...*

I'm going to have to go back and watch the last part of the stage, now.

From cyclingnews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/96th-tour-de-france-gt/stages/stage-3/results

With some big names caught out in the crosswinds behind, approaching the final 10km there was 33 seconds separating the leading 29 riders and the peloton. Armstrong was doing turns on the front, as were most of the members of the group, including the likes of Michael Rogers, George Hincapie, Yaroslav Popovych and Tony Martin.


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## Len J

Gripped said:


> They were taking meaningful pulls. It looked like perhaps half of the escapees were really working the front. That included Columbia (minus Cav), the Skill boys, and Popo and Lance. During the time the gap went from 20 to 30 seconds, Popo drilled it for a bit.


Sounds like a good tactic when you have multiple riders that Can win the tour.

If the positions were reversed, w contador in the break & LA caught napping, it probably would have happened exactly the same.

it's a long race.

Len


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## rocco

TheDon said:


> Everyone worked the break.



I never saw LA or Cancellara do any work at the front.


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## JSR

Columbia (except Renshaw and Cav), Skil-Shimano, and Atana (Zubeldia and Popo) formed a double paceline for the last 15 Km. My wife wanted me to point out LA, but I couldn't. He didn't put his nose in the wind. Renshaw launched Cav, who unveiled a nice new victory salute in honor of their new sponsor, HTC.

JSR


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## jd3

Len J said:


> That's what I figured........LA took advantage of a Colombia play.
> 
> Contador got caught napping.
> 
> No message from one to the other.
> 
> Len


You've got it. I did see what looked like Lance sending his guys to the front to help pull.


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## rocco

fracisco said:


> I'm going to have to go back and watch the last part of the stage, now.
> 
> From cyclingnews:
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/96th-tour-de-france-gt/stages/stage-3/results
> 
> With some big names caught out in the crosswinds behind, approaching the final 10km there was 33 seconds separating the leading 29 riders and the peloton. Armstrong was doing turns on the front, as were most of the members of the group, including the likes of Michael Rogers, George Hincapie, Yaroslav Popovych and Tony Martin.



I just watched with my own eyes... didn't see him or Cancellara working at the front. Perhaps he was up there briefly and I missed some how but if he was it wasn't for significant amount of time and he was more cycling through the echelon than working.


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## OldEndicottHiway

Len J said:


> That's what I figured........LA took advantage of a Colombia play.
> 
> *Contador got caught napping.*
> No message from one to the other.
> 
> Len



Thank you for your unflappable voice of reason.


As for those who think Contador is team Captain, and LA somehow failed him...I think that whole squad has been pretty undecided and vocally so all along, about just who is team leader. Contador proclaimed himself after the TT. But...apparently they aren't in complete agreement. 

I do feel for Contador though, he is peaking in his career, in top form, and he got sucked into a team that wasn't all behind him from the get-go. In that way, he got screwed.


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## j3fri

pity contador.. he is a good rider who can win tdf but stuck in astana... if only he is in caisse de


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## Circlip

j3fri said:


> lance with all the experiences has shown contador how to win tour de france..


More like Lance has George to tip him off by telling him to be near the front late in the race when Columbia plans to make a move.


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## monocognizant

Len J said:


> That's what I figured........LA took advantage of a Colombia play.
> 
> Len


 Why wouldn't he? He knew where to be and took advatage of the situation. That's just smart. Conti will need to stay on his toes from here on out.


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## Len J

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Thank you for your unflappable voice of reason.
> 
> 
> As for those who think Contador is team Captain, and LA somehow failed him...I think that whole squad has been pretty undecided and vocally so all along, about just who is team leader. Contador proclaimed himself after the TT. But...apparently they aren't in complete agreement.
> 
> I do feel for Contador though, he is peaking in his career, in top form, and he got sucked into a team that wasn't all behind him from the get-go. In that way, he got screwed.


He has a chance to send a message in the mountains......if there is anywhere he has an advantage it's there....and 40 seconds is nothing in the mountains.

If I were advising AC, I'd tell him to say "I got caught back in the peleton...Lance did a great job of recognizing and takeing advantage of it.......I'm glad a teammate did. But it's a long race and there is still much racing to do."

Len


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## rocco

ttug said:


> Ya know, I think we might be seeing a rift, this is not a swell thing to do, putting time into your captain. THIS COULD BE A COOL TDF.
> 
> Lance is now 3rd......Not a Lance fan, but the drama is here.



I didn't see Armstrong do anything but be attentive and be at the right place at the right time while the capo was napping further back. LA did no significant work in the group. There's no evidence that JB told LA and or the other 2 Astana guys in the break to come back. That's cycling.


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## BassNBrew

Geez people, this played out perfectly for Conti as far as the bigger picture is concerned.


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## Dumbod

I would be pissed if I were Contador. Yes, he missed the split but Popvych and Zubelia were definitely pushing the breakaway - not the way that you treat a team leader. He had to know that Armstrong would take advantage if he got the chance but, if I were he, I would have expected more support from Bruyneel. This could get really nasty (and fun to watch)


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## Len J

monocognizant said:


> Why wouldn't he? He knew where to be and took advatage of the situation. That's just smart. Conti will need to stay on his toes from here on out.


Where hive I said he shouldn't have?

len


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## LWP

I don't really care who leads Astana or even who wins the race, I just like to watch the race. I have to say though, it never ceases to amaze me how the anti-Lance crowd will sweep the floor for every crumb of an opportunity to say something negative about him. No, he wasn't single-handedly pulling the break away from the field... but neither was anyone else (_and that entire break owes Columbia a beer or three_).


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## j3fri

Circlip said:


> More like Lance has George to tip him off by telling him to be near the front late in the race when Columbia plans to make a move.


good point there :thumbsup:


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## OldEndicottHiway

Circlip said:


> More like Lance has George to tip him off by telling him to be near the front late in the race when Columbia plans to make a move.



LOL. That thought crossed my mind.


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## stevesbike

I'd be willing to put some money on Hincapie tipping LA off on the move. There was nothing wrong with Astana working the break - whenever you have a potential GC guy in a position to get some time you take it.


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## BassNBrew

Hmmm....maybe LA has bought off Columbia to work for him.


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## rocco

Len J said:


> He has a chance to send a message in the mountains......if there is anywhere he has an advantage it's there....and 40 seconds is nothing in the mountains.
> 
> If I were advising AC, I'd tell him to say "I got caught back in the peleton...Lance did a great job of recognizing and takeing advantage of it.......I'm glad a teammate did. But it's a long race and there is still much racing to do."
> 
> Len



Yep... AC has as many days as anyone else to send messages in this race. Being the capo doesn't mean he can turn his brain off and just ride on cruise control expecting the team to make it all work out for him.


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## NextTime

*Really?*



mark4501 said:


> if the tables were turned....Lance the announced team leader and ahead after TT, and if he got caught napping like Contador did....he would be screaming at Contador to slow down and help him pull back to lead group. no way he'd allow his subordinate to gain time on him.
> 
> I think Lance has a double standard that serves only himself. that was not a "team" move today on his part.


Do you really believe this? No rider in the lead group would have been capable in today's race, given the conditions, of slowing down and pulling a team leader back to the lead group. Seriously. Think about it.

Following your logic, then, you would have had Cancellara fall-back to the second group because he was putting in time to the Schlecks.

LA was in the right place at the right time and AC was not. Nothing more than that.


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## Andrea138

monocognizant said:


> Conti will need to stay on his toes from here on out.


The "team leader" should not have to worry about staying on his toes to keep ahead of his own teammates. Sure, he got caught napping... but LA knew that AC wasn't in the break and encouraged his teammates in the break to keep it going. No one from Astana got on the front of the chase group to help pull the break in... it's a crappy spot that he's being put in.


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## OldEndicottHiway

Len J said:


> He has a chance to send a message in the mountains......if there is anywhere he has an advantage it's there....and 40 seconds is nothing in the mountains.
> 
> If I were advising AC, I'd tell him to say "I got caught back in the peleton...Lance did a great job of recognizing and takeing advantage of it.......I'm glad a teammate did. But it's a long race and there is still much racing to do."
> 
> Len



Tough pill for him to swallow and "play nice."

Levi was just interviewed and he was very, how shall I say...tactfully and tactically careful in what he said...in essence, _we have more than one podium contender and there's a lot more racing to do._ 

What I'm seeing is two teams on one team at this point. And it'll take the mountains to declare who team as a whole gets behind and supports.


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## rocco

stevesbike said:


> I'd be willing to put some money on Hincapie tipping LA off on the move. There was nothing wrong with Astana working the break - whenever you have a potential GC guy in a position to get some time you take it.



Yep... was just going write the same. I'd bet at the least LA was keeping an attentive eye on where Hincapie was and stuck near him when he was up front.


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## rocco

Dumbod said:


> I would be pissed if I were Contador. Yes, he missed the split but Popvych and Zubelia were definitely pushing the breakaway - not the way that you treat a team leader. He had to know that Armstrong would take advantage if he got the chance but, if I were he, I would have expected more support from Bruyneel. This could get really nasty (and fun to watch)



He should be pissed at himself.


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## weltyed

good point on Hincapie possibly tipping off his old teammates. of course, who knows. could have been right place, right time. if anything, AC now knows even in a boring, flat, sprinters stage (yeah, i said t earlier), you need to be near the front and on your toes for more than the last 15k. 

LA famously twitted earlier this season, "AC still has a lot to learn." i slammed him back then, saying it was a rude comment. but today helped prove it. with the wind, several people thought eschelons would form. that means ya gotta be at the front.

regardless, astana has a multi-threat approach. this is good for both LA and AC. Heck, its even good for LL and AK. AC was the named and numbered team leader, but there is always a "we need to see how things play out on the road" feel.


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## Prolene

If Contador was concerned about LA, shouldn't he have been on Lance's wheel at all times? He wouldn't have missed the break in that case.


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## BassNBrew

Andrea138 said:


> The "team leader" should not have to worry about staying on his toes to keep ahead of his own teammates. Sure, he got caught napping... but LA knew that AC wasn't in the break and encouraged his teammates in the break to keep it going. No one from Astana got on the front of the chase group to help pull the break in... it's a crappy spot that he's being put in.


Why would Astana chase on the eve of a TTT when their rivals were burning matches chasing? This race is more than a day long.


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## rssljhnsn

I think the only message Lance sent was a reiteration of his twitter thing a while back. Great talent, but a lot to learn. Contador still has a lot to learn. He blew a chance to gain another 40 (maybe more) seconds on those behind him. 
Stage 3's message to AC? - "bleeping pay attention!!"


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## den bakker

weltyed said:


> LA famously twitted earlier this season, "AC still has a lot to learn." i slammed him back then, saying it was a rude comment. but today helped prove it. with the wind, several people thought eschelons would form. that means ya gotta be at the front.


I guess AC is then in the noobsauce together with leipheimer, sastre, menchov, schleck, voigt, schleck, vande velde etc.


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## uzziefly

Gripped said:


> I'm pretty sure I saw Lance, Popo, and George cycle through the front more than a few times -- just like the old days. Columbia was driving but Popo and Lance were pitching in.
> 
> Fabian sat on for the ride -- not surprising since the Schlecks got caught out.


Wrong. Lance sat there all the way.


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## rogger

Len J said:


> That's what I figured........LA took advantage of a Colombia play.
> 
> Contador got caught napping.
> 
> No message from one to the other.
> 
> Len


It was LA who was kept up front in a safe position, just like he was during the Giro. Astana may have a captain, but LA has the domestiques. Those signals have been sent as early as the ToC and Paris-Nice. Nothing new here.


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## bauerb

all we saw today was the experience of LA putting him where he needed to be, when he needed to be there. it was not not luck. until proven unable to win, anyone with any sense would mark LA like their livelyhood depended on it. the guy has more Tour wisdom than anyone else in the peleton. you don't need to like him, but he cannot be disregarded.


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## 32and3cross

rocco said:


> Exactly... Wake up Alberto. Armstrong didn't do any pulls... pretty much all Team Colombia.


Plus the 2 Astana guys.


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## LWP

Andrea138 said:


> The "team leader" should not have to worry about staying on his toes to keep ahead of his own teammates. Sure, he got caught napping... but LA knew that AC wasn't in the break and encouraged his teammates in the break to keep it going. No one from Astana got on the front of the chase group to help pull the break in... it's a crappy spot that he's being put in.


They have the responsibility to try to win as a team but I'm not sure that automatically translates to they have the responsibility to lose as a team. Of course that's just my opinion as a non-racer. Good racing is more entertaining to me than team politics.


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## uzziefly

Very simple. Lance Armstrong is a great bike handler and always stays at the front in all his Tour wins.

Contador was thinking about paella for dinner tonight and then Bam! The split occurred and he realized he's gotta eat a powerbar for the next hour still before the paella even comes to the table.

So of course Columbia work since that's best for them.

LA pushed Popo and Zubeldia to work because well, I'm sure he got the green light to keep going from that moment perhaps.

And, Astana did not chase the break because they had no one to worry about. Tony Martin? No way.

Lance Armstrong? He's Astana and it's better if he goes up the GC instead of letting the break go to waste. Besides, it's still only stage 3.

I don't get why Evans was so pissed though. It's only a small gap and it's not like Contador is in the first group. It was Lance. Oh well. Surely he views Alberto as the main threat.

Additionally, I think Klöden overtook Cadel now coz Cadel got separated further in the second group. I think Levi got separated too but that, I'm not sure of.


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## majura

*From the man himself:*



> St3 done - gnarly! Crosswinds all day and a group snuck off in the last 25k behind Columbia/HTC's tempo. I was lucky enough 2 b there.
> 
> Had Popo and Zubeldia w/ me and no other GC favs in the front. Gained valuable time but most likely minor in scheme of 3 weeks. Onward.


I think it's as simple as that Astana has 4 potential GC contenders and Lance is one of them. Whilst what's been coming from the varying mouths of Astana are about as clear as mud, Lance was doing (and instructing) as any potential GC contender would- time gains are everything and despite that Lance twattered/tweetered/twottered/twat that 30 sec was 'minor'. We all know it's a lot.

Just think back to last year's Saxo Bank/CSC... 3 contenders that themselves were partially fighting each other but with a manager that knew how to set everything straight.

Either way, today's stage was actually interesting! Unlike the prescribed attack>chase from 50km to go>catch>sprint from yesterday.


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## Mosovich

*Here's what I think..*

That guy in the Mavic team car actually stopped twice to take a pee pee today instead of one, which is a blatant infraction on French labor laws.. I mean, how dare he stop twice to take a pee pee.. 

Come on guys, it's a bike race.. Lighten up!


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## rocco

Andrea138 said:


> The "team leader" should not have to worry about staying on his toes to keep ahead of his own teammates. Sure, he got caught napping... but LA knew that AC wasn't in the break and encouraged his teammates in the break to keep it going. No one from Astana got on the front of the chase group to help pull the break in... it's a crappy spot that he's being put in.



LOL... Wow... now you've really confirmed that you don't really understand the sport. The notion that the "team leader" should never have to worry... just turn the brain off and draft off of the team to victory is laughable. The amount of work LA and his teammates did in the break was minuscule at the most. And if you think that the remaining Astana riders back in the peloton could have reeled in that break then you're very much mistaken... the split was a text book example of what happens to the peloton when it hits a stiff cross wind. If JB had ordered anything different under the circumstance there would been a good argument to have his head examined. My only criticism of JB would be that IF he was aware of what the conditions were ahead (he should) and didn't warn/remind Contador about the situation/conditions in advance then he should have. Yes it's a slightly crappy spot he got himself into. That's cycling.


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## ttug

*Omfg*



majura said:


> I think it's as simple as that Astana has 4 potential GC contenders and Lance is one of them. Whilst what's been coming from the varying mouths of Astana are about as clear as mud, Lance was doing (and instructing) as any potential GC contender would- time gains are everything and despite that Lance twattered/tweetered/twottered/twat that 30 sec was 'minor'. We all know it's a lot.
> 
> Either way, today's stage was actually interesting! Unlike the prescribed attack>chase from 50km to go>catch>sprint from yesterday.


This is going to get very ugly very fast, the team TT tomorrow will only put more wood on the fire.


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## Coolhand

Andrea138 said:


> The "team leader" should not have to worry about staying on his toes to keep ahead of his own teammates. Sure, he got caught napping... but LA knew that AC wasn't in the break and encouraged his teammates in the break to keep it going. No one from Astana got on the front of the chase group to help pull the break in... it's a crappy spot that he's being put in.


Really? By definition a "team leader" should be paying attention. Its the one thing he has to do- everything else is done for him. And of course they worked to make that break stick- now they have more cards to play. 

Conty is strong like bull, but apparently about as bright (see also Cadel Evans).


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## rt1965

Well if somebody on Astana had not gone, then they would have reduced their chances of having someone in Yellow after tomorrow's stage. Why not let it be Lance? It's not like he put that much time into AC. I say we see Lance in Yellow for a day or two and then AC takes Yellow on Friday. This might play very well for Astana. Now the rest of the GC contenders will be really edgy and not sure who to watch.

Perhaps George did tip off Lance, but at the same time, did you see Fabian come from the other side of the road to get with that group? I'd say there were a couple of guys who saw that break coming.


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## bill

Lance is a GC threat. Cancellera was in the break. Two reasons for other teams to chase hard. Contador is only down a few seconds. Sounds as if a good move to me.


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## Coolhand

rocco said:


> LOL... Wow... now you've really confirmed that you don't really understand the sport. The notion that the "team leader" should never have to worry... just turn the brain off and draft off of the team to victory is laughable. The amount of work LA and his teammates did in the break was minuscule at the most. And if you think that the remaining Astana riders back in the peloton could have reeled in that break then you're very much mistaken. If JB had ordered anything different under the circumstance there would been a good argument to have his head examined. My only criticism of JB would be that IF he didn't warn/remind Contador about the situation/conditions then he should have. Yes it's a slightly crappy spot he got himself into. That's cycling.


LOL- Andrea races plenty herself. She understands the sport just fine. Just because you don't agree with her _opinion_ doesn't mean she doesn't know the sport. AC messed up- but so what-- he's still in 4th place and barely behind Armstrong. He's still the favorite to win as long as he keeps his head out of his keister and plays attention. Maybe if there were no radios his lack of race savvy would hurt him more, but the team car will keep him in the race till the mountains, where he will crush everyone but Andy S.


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## TedH

Just watched Lance being interviewed on France 2 TV and he said it's always good to get time on the others. When asked, but what about Contador? Lance answered "I've never subscribed to the theory that we have one leader; I've won the Tour 7 times. My goal was always yellow in Paris."

I say it's game on against Contador, who shouldn't have been so far back when cross winds were predicted (hell, you're heading west on the southern coast, of course there are headwinds).


----------



## Coolhand

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Tough pill for him to swallow and "play nice."
> 
> Levi was just interviewed and he was very, how shall I say...tactfully and tactically careful in what he said...in essence, _we have more than one podium contender and there's a lot more racing to do._
> 
> What I'm seeing is two teams on one team at this point. And it'll take the mountains to declare who team as a whole gets behind and supports.


What pill- he's in 4th place! Just a few seconds back- once he gets to the mountains he will make huge time on everyone (assuming he doesn't forget to eat or something like that). Its only stage 3.


----------



## rocco

rogger said:


> It was LA who was kept up front in a safe position, just like he was during the Giro. Astana may have a captain, but LA has the domestiques. Those signals have been sent as early as the ToC and Paris-Nice. Nothing new here.



If true it doesn't change/lessen Contador's responsibility to be attentive and stay up front in the safe position. LA wasn't simply kept up front... he had to work to be there and stay there... leaders aren't simply kept... they lead... thus the term "leader".


----------



## LWP

Coolhand said:


> Its only stage 3.


Exactly.


----------



## rocco

Coolhand said:


> What pill- he's in 4th place! Just a few seconds back- once he gets to the mountains he will make huge time on everyone (assuming he doesn't forget to eat or something like that). Its only stage 3.



Bulls-eye. AC squandered some of his advantage but this was far from decisive. Now... if he keeps making these sort of mistakes (like not eating or whatnot as you mention) then it could cost him big time.


----------



## Gripped

uzziefly said:


> Wrong. Lance sat there all the way.


You are correct. I was watching via the web -- with its itinerant issues. I thought Popo and Lance were the only two Astana guys in the break. Thus, when I saw two Astana guys cycling through, I assumed it was Lance and Popo.

I stand corrected.


----------



## uzziefly

bill said:


> Lance is a GC threat. Cancellera was in the break. Two reasons for other teams to chase hard. Contador is only down a few seconds. Sounds as if a good move to me.


Cancellara isn't a reason for the pack to chase actually. He's not gonna be a top GC guy in the mountains.

What I wonder a little was why Saxo was chasing the break when Fabian was there.

Andy Schleck and Frank Schleck were together with Contador and all and they'd all lose the same amount of time.

Well, maybe coz of Lance I suppose. But they stopped after awhile too.


----------



## rocco

Gripped said:


> You are correct. I was watching via the web -- with its itinerant issues. I thought Popo and Lance were the only two Astana guys in the break. Thus, when I saw two Astana guys cycling through, I assumed it was Lance and Popo.
> 
> I stand corrected.



Yep... Armstrong, Popo and Zubeldia.


----------



## uzziefly

It's clear from the start (of the Tour that is) when Lance basically said he didn't know anything about Johan saying there's only one leader. So, in this essence, whoever (GC guy) was up there would have gone for it.

Actually, even if it were Levi or Klöden instead of Lance, or Alberto as well, they'd have all gone for it too I suppose.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

Lance is smart.. You can't win the tour without being smart. He didn't let the gap split him off and everyone else did. I doubt Lance was sending any message but why would he not take a chance to pull some time for himself. He's not about to lay down for anyone.


----------



## rocco

Coolhand said:


> LOL- Andrea races plenty herself. She understands the sport just fine. Just because you don't agree with her _opinion_ doesn't mean she doesn't know the sport.


25+ years of riding, racing and observing the sport tells me otherwise. It may seem harsh but the truth is what it is.



Coolhand said:


> AC messed up- but so what-- he's still in 4th place and barely behind Armstrong. He's still the favorite to win as long as he keeps his head out of his keister and plays attention. Maybe if there were no radios his lack of race savvy would hurt him more, but the team car will keep him in the race till the mountains, where he will crush everyone but Andy S.


I agree.


----------



## ttug

*yup*



TedH said:


> Just watched Lance being interviewed on France 2 TV and he said it's always good to get time on the others. When asked, but what about Contador? Lance answered "I've never subscribed to the theory that we have one leader; I've won the Tour 7 times. My goal was always yellow in Paris."
> 
> I say it's game on against Contador, who shouldn't have been so far back when cross winds were predicted (hell, you're heading west on the southern coast, of course there are headwinds).


Its gonna be good......VERY GOOD


----------



## SilasCL

Andrea138 said:


> The "team leader" should not have to worry about staying on his toes to keep ahead of his own teammates. Sure, he got caught napping... but LA knew that AC wasn't in the break and encouraged his teammates in the break to keep it going. No one from Astana got on the front of the chase group to help pull the break in... it's a crappy spot that he's being put in.


This is exactly right.

If Contador gets caught behind and misses out, well that's not really Lance's fault. But why did Astana help pull the break?

The answer: because Lance wants to win the Tour and needs to put time into Contador.


----------



## stevesbike

LA is going to win this tour - that was the message. Seriously. There's not a whole lot to fear re summit finishes this year. Stage 7 is the only HC summit finish besides Ventoux, but it comes too early. And I think LA is still building form (he and Levi's training prep was to ride into form at the Tour).


----------



## TedH

rocco said:


> Exactly... Wake up Alberto. Armstrong didn't do any pulls... pretty much all Team Colombia.


I'm willing to bet money that Alberto flips on the Eurosport re-run tonight to confirm that. Going to be quiet at the dinner table.


----------



## zosocane

uzziefly said:


> Very simple. Lance Armstrong is a great bike handler and always stays at the front in all his Tour wins.
> 
> Contador was thinking about paella for dinner tonight and then Bam! The split occurred and he realized he's gotta eat a powerbar for the next hour still before the paella even comes to the table.
> 
> So of course Columbia work since that's best for them.
> 
> LA pushed Popo and Zubeldia to work because well, I'm sure he got the green light to keep going from that moment perhaps.
> 
> And, Astana did not chase the break because they had no one to worry about. Tony Martin? No way.
> 
> Lance Armstrong? He's Astana and it's better if he goes up the GC instead of letting the break go to waste. Besides, it's still only stage 3.
> 
> I don't get why Evans was so pissed though. It's only a small gap and it's not like Contador is in the first group. It was Lance. Oh well. Surely he views Alberto as the main threat.
> 
> Additionally, I think Klöden overtook Cadel now coz Cadel got separated further in the second group. I think Levi got separated too but that, I'm not sure of.


Have skimmed all the posts on this thread, this one hits the mark the best. Love him or hate him, Lance has an EXCELLENT RACING BRAIN. He stays towards the front. He is alert. He knows that riding in the South of France the x-winds coming off the Mediterranean are ferocious. Remember in the Giro how Lance was usually riding towards the front? Old habits die hard, and it's the old habit of staying towards the front that catapulted him to 3rd overall on GC. Suddenly, yellow jersey by this weekend is not unrealistic if Lance can hang in the mountains and Tony Martin falters a bit. 

Contador and Levi -- don't forget Levi -- fell asleep at the switch. They should have been up there to mitigate the risk of being in a shredded group. But Bruyneel makes (again) the right call in getting one of his 4 GC men to turn the screws and put as much time into non-Astana GC rivals as possible.


----------



## TheDon

ttug said:


> Its gonna be good......VERY GOOD


As much of an asshat as Lance is, he's still making this race exciting. Usually the first week is kind of boring for GC stuff.


----------



## pretender

It's very easy to fault Contador with 20/20 hindsight.


----------



## rogger

rocco said:


> If true it doesn't change/lessen Contador's responsibility to be attentive and stay up front in the safe position. LA wasn't simply kept up front... he had to work to be there and stay there... leaders aren't simply kept... they lead... thus the term "leader".


Leaders have people to to their work for them, hence the word "domestique". LA/JB have taken over the team leaving Contador pretty much on his own. Not much to lead if you have only your own legs and the support of Paulinho and maybe Zubeldia.


----------



## ttug

*agreed*



TheDon said:


> As much of an asshat as Lance is, he's still making this race exciting. Usually the first week is kind of boring for GC stuff.


This could be on par with Lemond and Hinault


----------



## rocco

SilasCL said:


> This is exactly right.
> 
> If Contador gets caught behind and misses out, well that's not really Lance's fault. But why did Astana help pull the break?
> 
> The answer: because Lance wants to win the Tour and needs to put time into Contador.



Popo and Zubeldia only cycled through as they should have... they did no significant work in the break. There's no way the 5 Astana guys plus Contador were going to close that split. There were plenty of other GC and sprinter teams who wanted to and tried but couldn't get it done. If the tables were turned with AC in the lead group it would have been no different except AC would 1:20 ahead of LA instead of LA being a handful of seconds ahead of AC.


----------



## zosocane

ZoSoSwiM said:


> Lance is smart.. You can't win the tour without being smart. He didn't let the gap split him off and everyone else did. I doubt Lance was sending any message but why would he not take a chance to pull some time for himself. He's not about to lay down for anyone.


Last week I read the new CycleSport USA America magazine, and it rates (on a scale of 1 to 10) Lance's "racing brain" as a 4. The commentary reads, "Used to rely on brute strength, both his and that of his team, rather than tactical finesse." When I read that I thought, "WTF?" Lance's racing smarts are an 8 or 9. Today his smarts, experience and alertness showed.


----------



## zosocane

pretender said:


> It's very easy to fault Contador with 20/20 hindsight.


It's even easier to fault Contador -- BTW, my favorite stage-race rider -- in FORESIGHT. He should have been toward the front, simple as that. So should Levi, Cadel, Andy, etc., etc.


----------



## munga22

*What should he have done instead?*

ooops. posted in wrong spot


----------



## uzziefly

I'm surprised at all the "Lance is an ass, he shouldn't have pushed his team to work" comments.

Why? 

I'll counter that by asking why nobody asked why Astana didn't try to chase the break down then? At all too. They were NOWHERE near the front most of the time and let Saxo and other guys do the work. 

What makes you think it wasn't what Johan ordered all along when the split occurred and he saw that Columbia had all their men up there. (I still find it cool that a whole team got into the break!!)

Additionally, if Astana (Lance, Yaroslav and Haimar) were supposed to pull back to help chase the break, then why doesn't anyone say Fabian had to do the same thing for the Schlecks?

Also, why doesn't anyone ask why other teams didn't work too? 

The gap was miniscule in all honesty. Lance is only a handful of seconds ahead of any other GC men. That's probably why no one else other than Cadel bothered. Perhaps. 

Just my opinions. 

And, to add: I think this really came down to inexperience from Alberto - Lance raced in many Tours. He knows it would get windy etc. He stayed up front. No matter, he worked his way up front too. No, it doesn't matter how he got there - you want to win the Tour, you HAVE to stay in front like all the other GC men should have.

This is where being smart and aware and well, experience comes in I suppose. Something happened. Lance was in the right place. He didn't suffer. He gained. Everyone else : They lost some time.


----------



## pretender

fornaca68 said:


> It's even easier to fault Contador -- BTW, my favorite stage-race rider -- in FORESIGHT. He should have been toward the front, simple as that. So should Levi, Cadel, Andy, etc., etc.


You weren't saying this before the break occurred.


----------



## uzziefly

fornaca68 said:


> Last week I read the new CycleSport USA America magazine, and it rates (on a scale of 1 to 10) Lance's "racing brain" as a 4. The commentary reads, "Used to rely on brute strength, both his and that of his team, rather than tactical finesse." When I read that I thought, "WTF?" Lance's racing smarts are an 8 or 9. Today his smarts, experience and alertness showed.


That's stupid. He's a very smart racer indeed.

Remember the dehydration/bonk pseudo persona? That's smart.

Remember his cyclocross act? That's quick wit.

Remember how he always stays up front? That's awareness and experience.

Remember the name of the guy who wrote that article you read?  Ha.


----------



## rocco

rogger said:


> Leaders have people to to their work for them, hence the word "domestique". LA/JB have taken over the team leaving Contador pretty much on his own. Not much to lead if you have only your own legs and the support of Paulinho and maybe Zubeldia.



JB has taken over the team? That's an interesting perspective that I'm sure Vino would appreciate. Leaders have domestiques but leaders still have to work and think... lead. If AC had all 8 Astana men back there with him pulling they still would not have closed the gap. BTW, Zubeldia was up front with Armstrong and Popo. These conspiracy theories are laughable.


----------



## den bakker

rocco said:


> Popo and Zubeldia only cycled through as they should have... they did no significant work in the break. There's no way the 5 Astana guys plus Contador were going to close that split. There were plenty of other GC and sprinter teams who wanted to and tried but couldn't get it done. If the tables were turned with AC in the lead group it would have been no different except AC would 1:20 ahead of LA instead of LA being a handful of seconds ahead of AC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Aadh6w-U 
there sure was a lot of yellow/blue at the front until the 2km mark.


----------



## SilasCL

rocco said:


> Popo and Zubeldia only cycled through as they should have... they did no significant work in the break. There's no way the 5 Astana guys plus Contador were going to close that split. There were plenty of other GC and sprinter teams who wanted to and tried but couldn't get it done. If the tables were turned with AC in the lead group it would have been no different except AC would 1:20 ahead of LA instead of LA being a handful of seconds ahead of AC.


Why didn't they just sit on? Why work at all on the eve of the TTT?


----------



## uzziefly

Gripped said:


> You are correct. I was watching via the web -- with its itinerant issues. I thought Popo and Lance were the only two Astana guys in the break. Thus, when I saw two Astana guys cycling through, I assumed it was Lance and Popo.
> 
> I stand corrected.


I didn't see Popo at first and wondered where the hell he came from! And I didn't recognize Zubeldia so I was wondering who that was. 

And, Popo was the first to start working I think so I'm sure that's also a signal from JB to go.


----------



## gregario

Andrea138 said:


> Yeah, the message is "I'm here as a Volunteer for Livestrong, but I still want to put time on my team captain."


good one.


----------



## den bakker

SilasCL said:


> Why didn't they just sit on? Why work at all on the eve of the TTT?


exactly, plenty of riders up there that did not take a pull at all.


----------



## zosocane

uzziefly said:


> He knows it would get windy etc. He stayed up front. No matter, he worked his way up front too. No, it doesn't matter how he got there - you want to win the Tour, you HAVE to stay in front like all the other GC men should have.


Totally agree.

The last time this happened in the Tour was in 2007 -- and near Montpelier in the South of France, if I recall correctly. Astana and a fresh-blooded Vino were ripping it in the front in a brutal cross-wind and who got caught napping -- Christophe Moreau. He lost a couple of minutes, and his GC hopes were done after that day.


----------



## SilasCL

uzziefly said:


> I'm surprised at all the "Lance is an ass, he shouldn't have pushed his team to work" comments.
> 
> Why?
> 
> I'll counter that by asking why nobody asked why Astana didn't try to chase the break down then? At all too. They were NOWHERE near the front most of the time and let Saxo and other guys do the work.
> 
> What makes you think it wasn't what Johan ordered all along when the split occurred and he saw that Columbia had all their men up there. (I still find it cool that a whole team got into the break!!)
> 
> Additionally, if Astana (Lance, Yaroslav and Haimar) were supposed to pull back to help chase the break, then why doesn't anyone say Fabian had to do the same thing for the Schlecks?
> 
> Also, why doesn't anyone ask why other teams didn't work too?
> 
> The gap was miniscule in all honesty. Lance is only a handful of seconds ahead of any other GC men. That's probably why no one else other than Cadel bothered. Perhaps.
> 
> Just my opinions.
> 
> And, to add: I think this really came down to inexperience from Alberto - Lance raced in many Tours. He knows it would get windy etc. He stayed up front. No matter, he worked his way up front too. No, it doesn't matter how he got there - you want to win the Tour, you HAVE to stay in front like all the other GC men should have.
> 
> This is where being smart and aware and well, experience comes in I suppose. Something happened. Lance was in the right place. He didn't suffer. He gained. Everyone else : They lost some time.


Nobody is saying they should have pulled back and sat next to Contador. Why did they work to put in time?

So Lance can win the Tour.

You can't say that it's just a handful of seconds, not important, who cares, then declare a victory for Lance by picking up those few seconds.


----------



## uzziefly

rocco said:


> If true it doesn't change/lessen Contador's responsibility to be attentive and stay up front in the safe position. LA wasn't simply kept up front... he had to work to be there and stay there... leaders aren't simply kept... they lead... thus the term "leader".


LA is always in front or at least, near there when there are important events/possible splits etc. That comes from being experienced and alertness too. 

Of course, that's not blaming Contador - it's just that well, everyone else also got caught out and only Lance wasn't. And his lieutenants for the day. 

//Maybe George DID tell him Columbia were gonna try to pull away!


----------



## bill

uzziefly said:


> Cancellara isn't a reason for the pack to chase actually. He's not gonna be a top GC guy in the mountains.
> 
> What I wonder a little was why Saxo was chasing the break when Fabian was there.
> 
> Andy Schleck and Frank Schleck were together with Contador and all and they'd all lose the same amount of time.
> 
> Well, maybe coz of Lance I suppose. But they stopped after awhile too.


now you've gone and made me think about this.
true, Cancellera is not a genuine GC threat. Still, I can think of several reasons to chase him. the yellow jersey is up for grabs until it's not, and right now it is, within seconds of many, many riders. there may never be a better opportunity to have your guy in yellow than when even the lowest ranked riders are only a couple of minutes down. so, go chase it.
can't ever be a good idea to let the yellow jersey get too far up the road. I don't care who you are.
as for why Saxo chased -- maybe they were blocking, not chasing, until someone else took over for real.


----------



## uzziefly

fornaca68 said:


> Have skimmed all the posts on this thread, this one hits the mark the best. Love him or hate him, Lance has an EXCELLENT RACING BRAIN. He stays towards the front. He is alert. He knows that riding in the South of France the x-winds coming off the Mediterranean are ferocious. Remember in the Giro how Lance was usually riding towards the front? Old habits die hard, and it's the old habit of staying towards the front that catapulted him to 3rd overall on GC. Suddenly, yellow jersey by this weekend is not unrealistic if Lance can hang in the mountains and Tony Martin falters a bit.
> 
> Contador and Levi -- don't forget Levi -- fell asleep at the switch. They should have been up there to mitigate the risk of being in a shredded group. But Bruyneel makes (again) the right call in getting one of his 4 GC men to turn the screws and put as much time into non-Astana GC rivals as possible.



Yeah I was wondering where Levi was too. In fact, I think he even lost more time towards the end since he's now in 10th overall. Levi's positioning doesn't seem to be great at times it seems. But, he's always been classy about it and never blamed anyone. I do wish he doesn't have to be classy by just keeping in front though!!


----------



## ukbloke

Lance got lucky today, but of course he had to be there at the right place at the right time so he made his own luck. Now he has a good chance of winning the TTT tomorrow with Astana, and an outside chance of making up the 40 seconds to Cancellera and taking the yellow. IMHO (and as a big Lance fan) that's his best chance of getting a stage win and a yellow jersey in the Tour. Whatever happens after that, he can say that he met his goals in coming back out of retirement. 19 seconds over Contador is nothing at this point in the Tour.


----------



## DIRT BOY

Yes, I am back, I know how to race, and don't get caught sleeping young wipper snapper!


----------



## LWP

uzziefly said:


> This is where being smart and aware and well, experience comes in I suppose. Something happened. Lance was in the right place. He didn't suffer. He gained. Everyone else : They lost some time.


It really is that simple. :thumbsup:


----------



## rocco

den bakker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Aadh6w-U
> there sure was a lot of yellow/blue at the front until the 2km mark.



Oh boy... At 2.1K to 2K Popo and Zubeldia pulled through/cycled back almost immediately as they should have. In fact you can see that they weren't at the front again from 2K to the finish. This shows/means nothing other than that keeping the speed up/the pack strung out is much safer for your best man in the break.


----------



## rdolson

Getting interesting! 

Maybe even some late tour team orders, a la Lemond/Hinault La Vie Claire in 1985? Maybe this time the strongest rider rebels and goes for the win!


----------



## SilasCL

den bakker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Aadh6w-U
> there sure was a lot of yellow/blue at the front until the 2km mark.


Look at the 1:10 mark, that's Popovych and Zubeldia pulling through. They pull again at 1:40, 2:30, 4:10...etc.

To everyone who says they weren't doing any work or weren't doing real pulls...watch the video.


----------



## den bakker

rocco said:


> Oh boy... Popo and Zubeldia pulled through/cycled back almost immediately as they should have... especially when they're within 2K of a sprint finish. This shows/means nothing other than that keeping the speed up/the pack strung out is much safer for your best man in the break.


Safety first!


----------



## rt1965

This just in from Chris Horner on Twitter. "What a ride by Lance! Wasn't taking a mid-day nap today! Nice..." 

Apparently he isn't as tactful as Levi!


----------



## zosocane

pretender said:


> You weren't saying this before the break occurred.


What I'm saying is that if you've raced (presumably you have) when you get into strong cross-winds with a group as painful as it is you MUST move up toward the front as if your life depends on it because the risk of a gap within the peloton opening up is at its highest. And once that gap opens up it's virtually impossible to bridge solo to the leading group.

In foresight Contador SHOULD HAVE been toward the front. Frankly, I don't know why he isn't sitting on Lance's wheel the way Jan Ullrich would build campfires on Lance's wheel. Look at the 2009 Giro, Lance is towards the front. Look at the 1999 to 2005 TdFs, Lance is toward the front. Look at the 2005 Tour of Flanders, Lance is towards the front. And I'm speaking as a Contador fan.


----------



## den bakker

SilasCL said:


> Look at the 1:10 mark, that's Popovych and Zubeldia pulling through. They pull again at 1:40, 2:30, 4:10...etc.
> 
> To everyone who says they weren't doing any work or weren't doing real pulls...watch the video.


and their pulls are about the same length as the Columbia riders pulls (i.e. all did fricking short pulls at that speed).


----------



## uzziefly

bill said:


> now you've gone and made me think about this.
> true, Cancellera is not a genuine GC threat. Still, I can think of several reasons to chase him. the yellow jersey is up for grabs until it's not, and right now it is, within seconds of many, many riders. there may never be a better opportunity to have your guy in yellow than when even the lowest ranked riders are only a couple of minutes down. so, go chase it.
> can't ever be a good idea to let the yellow jersey get too far up the road. I don't care who you are.
> as for why Saxo chased -- maybe they were blocking, not chasing, until someone else took over for real.


Agreed.

Saxo could have been blocking and just maintaining the pace instead. 

Well, you also realized not many people chased right?


----------



## uzziefly

SilasCL said:


> *Nobody is saying they should have pulled back and sat next to Contador. Why did they work to put in time?
> *
> So Lance can win the Tour.
> 
> You can't say that it's just a handful of seconds, not important, who cares, then declare a victory for Lance by picking up those few seconds.



I think there are a few indirect statements about this actually. It won't have made sense if they did do that.

They worked coz Johan gave the green light too I presume. Maybe. Coz well, they were just following for a long time up till one moment when Popo went up and pulled and then gave a signal for Zubeldia to also go IIRC. 

Also, they pulled to get Lance up there in the time sheets too. Makes sense to have as many men near the top within a handful of seconds of each other before the mountains just in case. Perhaps. Maybe. IMHO. 

//Not saying they pulled not so Lance could win. Just saying that those could also be reasons. I'd imagine if Klöden (I really wonder where he is at times in the race since I hardly see him) or Levi were there, they'd also do the same perhaps.


----------



## DIRT BOY

rt1965 said:


> This just in from Chris Horner on Twitter. "What a ride by Lance! Wasn't taking a mid-day nap today! Nice..."
> 
> Apparently he isn't as tactful as Levi!


That's funny!


----------



## rocco

den bakker said:


> Safety first!



You do realize that Popo and Zubeldia pulled through/cycled back almost immediately at 2.1K to 2K and in fact you can see that they weren't at the front again from 2K in to the finish, right?


----------



## den bakker

rocco said:


> You do realize that Popo and Zubeldia pulled through/cycled back almost immediately at 2.1K to 2K and in fact you can see that they weren't at the front again from 2K in to the finish, right?


you do realize the rest of us talk about what happened up till the 2k mark right? You know, the part where they were sharing pulls with columbia, making sure the chasers won't get up to them?


----------



## rocco

SilasCL said:


> Look at the 1:10 mark, that's Popovych and Zubeldia pulling through. They pull again at 1:40, 2:30, 4:10...etc.
> 
> To everyone who says they weren't doing any work or weren't doing real pulls...watch the video.


I have... those aren't significant pulls.


----------



## den bakker

rocco said:


> I have... those aren't significant pulls.


fine, then columbia made insignificant pulls as well. Strange they were not caught be the chasers then.


----------



## weltyed

den bakker said:


> I guess AC is then in the noobsauce together with leipheimer, sastre, menchov, schleck, voigt, schleck, vande velde etc.


you think any of them were happy to get caught out in the wind?


----------



## SilasCL

rocco said:


> I have... those aren't significant pulls.


So when Popovych hits the front and puts his head down, that means he's just cycling through?

You're living in fantasy world, they helped pull. There were only about a dozen riders pulling, Lance and many others sat on. Why didn't Popovych and Zubeldia sit on and save energy for tomorrow? Your safety excuse doesn't make any sense.


----------



## ttug

*you mean 86*



rdolson said:


> Getting interesting!
> 
> Maybe even some late tour team orders, a la Lemond/Hinault La Vie Claire in 1985? Maybe this time the strongest rider rebels and goes for the win!


You mean the 86 TDF?


----------



## 32and3cross

rocco said:


> You do realize that Popo and Zubeldia pulled through/cycled back almost immediately at 2.1K to 2K and in fact you can see that they weren't at the front again from 2K in to the finish, right?


At 2k to go they didn't need to pull as Columbia was leading it out for Cav to keep Thor locked down and no one from escaping to spoil the party.

The fact is Astana did work in that break and more than a little.


----------



## uzziefly

Also, another thought: They wanted to try and get Lance in yellow for publicity as well as to keep the peloton guessing as to who they really work for etc etc.


----------



## rocco

den bakker said:


> fine, then columbia made insignificant pulls as well. Strange they were not caught be the chasers then.



Are you farking kidding? The amount of time the Columbia guys spent on the front working versus what Popo and Zubeldia did was probably 30 to 1.


----------



## den bakker

weltyed said:


> you think any of them were happy to get caught out in the wind?


no but singling out AC as a person that has a lot to learn seems a bit unfair. Making a mistake is not the same as being inexperienced.


----------



## uzziefly

Coolhand said:


> What pill- he's in 4th place! Just a few seconds back- once he gets to the mountains he will make huge time on everyone (assuming he doesn't forget to eat or something like that). Its only stage 3.


I think he was dreaming about dinner today and that cost him!


----------



## uzziefly

rocco said:


> Oh boy... At 2.1K to 2K Popo and Zubeldia pulled through/cycled back almost immediately as they should have. In fact you can see that they weren't at the front again from 2K to the finish. This shows/means nothing other than that keeping the speed up/the pack strung out is much safer for your best man in the break.


No. Actually, Popo and Zubeldia pulled a number of times along the way but not the whole time the break was there though. 

Just fyi.


----------



## uzziefly

den bakker said:


> exactly, plenty of riders up there that did not take a pull at all.


They had nothing to gain actually and just wanted to be there.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

TedH said:


> *Just watched Lance being interviewed on France 2 TV and he said it's always good to get time on the others. When asked, but what about Contador? Lance answered "I've never subscribed to the theory that we have one leader; I've won the Tour 7 times. My goal was always yellow in Paris."*
> 
> I say it's game on against Contador, who shouldn't have been so far back when cross winds were predicted (hell, you're heading west on the southern coast, of course there are headwinds).



Fan flipping tastic.

I love this sport.


----------



## uzziefly

rocco said:


> I just watched with my own eyes... didn't see him or Cancellara working at the front. Perhaps he was up there briefly and I missed some how but if he was it wasn't for significant amount of time and he was more cycling through the echelon than working.



I never saw LA worked at all in front. He was always one position (IIRC) in front of Fabian and just sat in behind the Columbia, occasional Milram and Cofidis, and later the Astana guys.


----------



## den bakker

rocco said:


> Are you farking kidding? The amount of time the Columbia guys spent on the front working versus what Popo and Zubeldia did was probably 30 to 1.


I'll let people keep their own time cards from the video. Clearly we live in different space-time realities.


----------



## ttug

*oh my goodness*



OldEndicottHiway said:


> Fan flipping tastic.
> 
> I love this sport.


Let the hate rain down. This is just better all the time


----------



## uzziefly

Dumbod said:


> I would be pissed if I were Contador. Yes, he missed the split but Popvych and Zubelia were definitely pushing the breakaway - not the way that you treat a team leader. He had to know that Armstrong would take advantage if he got the chance but, if I were he, I would have expected more support from Bruyneel. This could get really nasty (and fun to watch)


Of course, it also is a good move to get one of your possible GC men/big name more time so there are more guys who are near the top too.

Then there is that Team GC thing for now as well. Perhaps.


----------



## rocco

den bakker said:


> you do realize the rest of us talk about what happened up till the 2k mark right? You know, the part where they were sharing pulls with columbia, making sure the chasers won't get up to them?



I watched the whole race live. The break was much, much longer than the 4 or 5 minutes you see in that video and the amount of work/time Columbia put into it was vast compared to the dozen or so times Popo and Zubeldia pulled through. 

If you were the DS what would you have wanted to happen differently other than AC being asleep at the wheel?


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

Coolhand said:


> *What pill- he's in 4th place! * .



What pill? 

He just got skooled.


----------



## LWP

32and3cross said:


> The fact is Astana did work in that break and more than a little.


Maybe. But what does that have to do with all of the Lance is an idiot/not a team player/etc. showing up as a result? Is there no possibility that Johan said "take what you can get"? People are assuming since Lance didn't wait on the side of the road for the team leader that he must have been masterminding something sinister. Maybe he, Popovych and Zubeldia did exactly what they were told to do once they gained the advantage/opportunity.


----------



## den bakker

rocco said:


> I watched the whole race live. The break was much, much longer than the 4 or 5 minutes you see in that video and the amount of work/time Columbia put into it was vast compared to the dozen or so times Popo and Zubeldia pulled through.
> 
> If you were the DS what would you have wanted to happen differently other than AC being asleep at the wheel?


Who said I wanted it differently? I simply find it laughable that it is claimed Astana did not help drive the break.


----------



## uzziefly

rt1965 said:


> *Well if somebody on Astana had not gone, then they would have reduced their chances of having someone in Yellow after tomorrow's stage.* Why not let it be Lance? It's not like he put that much time into AC. I say we see Lance in Yellow for a day or two and then AC takes Yellow on Friday. This might play very well for Astana. Now the rest of the GC contenders will be really edgy and not sure who to watch.
> 
> Perhaps George did tip off Lance, but at the same time, did you see Fabian come from the other side of the road to get with that group? I'd say there were a couple of guys who saw that break coming.


Disagree. Alberto was closer to Fabian than anyone was since he was 2nd. 

Just saying.

//Quite possible on the GC comment regarding the others aren't sure who to watch now maybe.


----------



## rocco

OldEndicottHiway said:


> What pill?
> 
> He just got skooled.



Yep... as he should have. Lucky for him this probably won't much hurt his chances overall.


----------



## uzziefly

den bakker said:


> I guess AC is then in the noobsauce together with leipheimer, sastre, menchov, schleck, voigt, schleck, vande velde etc.


Actually, kinda.

Look at Fabian. He was on the other side, quickly bunny hopped to the right side and went up to the front right when it was about to happen down the road. He stayed in front like he should have since he wants to keep the jersey.


----------



## bas

TheDon said:


> Lance just put some time into Contador. Contador's now behind him in the GC, will Astana have a new captain now?


     

the road is still flat and there are 3 weeks left still


----------



## rocco

32and3cross said:


> At 2k to go they didn't need to pull as Columbia was leading it out for Cav to keep Thor locked down and no one from escaping to spoil the party.
> 
> The fact is Astana did work in that break and more than a little.



The amount of work Astana did in that break was minuscule... period.


----------



## den bakker

uzziefly said:


> Actually, kinda.
> 
> Look at Fabian. He was on the other side, quickly bunny hopped to the right side and went up to the front right when it was about to happen down the road. He stayed in front like he should have since he wants to keep the jersey.


you go ahead and call Voigt noobsauce to his face


----------



## ttug

*cry me a river*



stellaartois said:


> That might be the case, but Lance isn't doing any of this for the viewers, he's doing this for himself. And all of this talk of better coverage....what does that mean? More Phil and Paul opining about how great Lance and David Millar are? hahahaha, joking, right?
> 
> What are they gonna talk about when Lance finally tests positive? Of course if it won't tarnish his old victories, right?
> 
> I agree, any of the favs who were caught out made a mistake....but for members of your own team to be pulling the group further up the road from you makes no sense....unless your purpose is to win by yourself, for yourself.
> 
> Hahahaha, dinner tonight at the hotel should be interesting. But I would not be surprised at all if Alberto splits.....what a bunch of crap. I've actually done the same thing, when my "team" decided that I wasnt good enough to race up with the A racers, I left....and life suddenly got a lot easier and more fun.


What if you are 100% correct about Lance in this specific stage.

OK, now what?

Folks love train wrecks, stage sprints are cool. BUT, hatred, inner team fighting AND a stage sprint, BABY, THATS BEER TIME and ratings heaven


----------



## rocco

uzziefly said:


> No. Actually, Popo and Zubeldia pulled a number of times along the way but not the whole time the break was there though.
> 
> Just fyi.



I just watched the whole thing myself live... They pulled through a number of times but the amount of work they did overall was tiny... practically insignificant... certainly no more than what the DS wanted.


----------



## jpelaston

stellaartois said:


> I've actually done the same thing, when my "team" decided that I wasnt good enough to race up with the A racers, I left....and life suddenly got a lot easier and more fun.


and the team continued without you....


----------



## rocco

32and3cross said:


> The fact is Astana did work in that break and more than a little.


No... in fact it was very very little.


----------



## Art853

fornaca68 said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> The last time this happened in the Tour was in 2007 -- and near Montpelier in the South of France, if I recall correctly. Astana and a fresh-blooded Vino were ripping it in the front in a brutal cross-wind and who got caught napping -- Christophe Moreau. He lost a couple of minutes, and his GC hopes were done after that day.


The LBS was playing this stage on the TV on Friday and I walked in just before Astana started hammering into the crosswind (and after a while let other teams take their turn once a significant gap had opened). It's good to be near the front and see what is going on.


----------



## arshak

rocco said:


> Popo and Zubeldia only cycled through as they should have... they did no significant work in the break. There's no way the 5 Astana guys plus Contador were going to close that split. There were plenty of other GC and sprinter teams who wanted to and tried but couldn't get it done. If the tables were turned with AC in the lead group it would have been no different except AC would 1:20 ahead of LA instead of LA being a handful of seconds ahead of AC.


History repeats itself. 2001 tdf and the Passage du Boise stage where LA's team drilled it and put 40+ minutes into the peloton, IMO, I would say that Al Contador has a responsibility to be alert to what is happening and respond. As to LA, well done, He and his teammates did enough to keep in the break. Heck, Saxo Bank, Garmin et al could not close down the gap to the boys in yellow and white, what makes you think that 3 guys from Astana in the group would have helped Contador?


----------



## Snakebit

Circlip said:


> More like Lance has George to tip him off by telling him to be near the front late in the race when Columbia plans to make a move.


Since the commentators were discussing the wind situation and just such a possibility, I doubt Lance needed inside information to follow the move. He has always been aware of what is going on and he positioned himself close to the front to be in position to do just what he did. It isn't the first time he has let another team pull him along and likely won't be the last. nothing underhanded about it, Contador should pull his head out and pay attention. Perhaps he learned something today?


----------



## joeqp1

Last time I checked, Contador was the leader of Astana according to Bruyneel. I would of thought the results of the first stage could only have confirmed Contador as leader. Why would Astana be trying to put time into their own leader (i.e by Popovych and Zubeldia taking pulls today)?


----------



## rocco

den bakker said:


> I'll let people keep their own time cards from the video. Clearly we live in different space-time realities.



Again, that video is a very short snip of the overall duration of the entire breakaway. This back and forth is getting beyond the point of silly.


----------



## kretzel

dang there is lots of message sending going on this morning! 

my DVR cut out with 12 miles to go. AAAAAGHHHHH. but what a show! who would have thought the LA vs AC saga would kick into high gear so soon! The ratings people are luvin' it.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

ttug said:


> Let the hate rain down. This is just better all the time



No. I meant truly... fan flipping _tastic_.

I love watching LA do his thang.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

Lets think about this a second.. It's been mentioned already but if Lance puts on yellow for even one stage it'll boost publicity for him, the tour, and cycling in general. The Tour of California greatly felt Lance being there..The TDF is the same. Even if he fades in the coming weeks it still looks good.

Sure.. I'd love to see Lance do well and even win. He's greatly talented... it's on hell of a chess game right now.


----------



## rocco

SilasCL said:


> So when Popovych hits the front and puts his head down, that means he's just cycling through?
> 
> You're living in fantasy world, they helped pull. There were only about a dozen riders pulling, Lance and many others sat on. Why didn't Popovych and Zubeldia sit on and save energy for tomorrow? Your safety excuse doesn't make any sense.



I never said they didn't help at all... I said very little.


----------



## Prolene

rocco said:


> I never said they didn't help at all... I said very little.


That would be acting in favor of Contador, no?


----------



## jpick915

Man, some of the dedicated Lance-bashers really seem to be over reacting to todays stage. It is only Stage 3 for god's sake. With the mountain finishes, it is still Contador's race to win or lose. 

I really think that Astana is looking to fill up the podium in Paris this year. Alberto is going to get his time back in the mountains and apparently the TTs this year. It would appear that Astana's other GC contenders need to get their time whenever and where ever they can and that is what happened today. Those that think Lance will be able to hold his own against Alberto in the mountains this year are probably just a bit deluded or looking at the world through yellow-tinted glasses.


----------



## TmaxR

rocco said:


> This back and forth is getting beyond the point of silly.


Then why do you continue to propagate it? You've have stated your position more than once, or twice, or three times. I think you have made your point, and I concur. Go Lance!


----------



## uzziefly

den bakker said:


> you go ahead and call Voigt noobsauce to his face


Got his cellphone number? 

But seriously, look at Fabian. Good bike handling, good awareness and well, good strategy to head up front. 

If Valverde raced this Tour, I'd imagine he'd be behind too


----------



## uzziefly

rocco said:


> I just watched the whole thing myself live... They pulled through a number of times but the amount of work they did overall was tiny... practically insignificant... certainly no more than what the DS wanted.


Yeah I was just indicating that they did start to do some work indeed.

Not miniscule, but not massive either. And it only started after they got the get go to start working it seems since Popo only came up after sometime in tow too.


----------



## rocco

j3fri said:


> pity contador.. he is a good rider who can win tdf but stuck in astana... if only he is in caisse de



Why? Because Caisse d'Epargne's DS would have slapped him on the head and said "wake up"? There was nothing that Astana did that did significant harm to AC's chances... on stage 3 of all stages. This was all on AC and lucky for him it wasn't worse.


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

jpick915 said:


> . *Those that think Lance will be able to hold his own against Alberto in the mountains this year are probably just a bit deluded*.



Maybe. But you might want to take into account 1999-2005. 

Just saying. 

Like teoteoteo and Oarsman said, in essence, "don't p*ss the man off." :thumbsup: 

We'll see in Paris.


----------



## SilasCL

den bakker said:


> I'll let people keep their own time cards from the video. Clearly we live in different space-time realities.


My thoughts exactly...


----------



## loudog

what a fine spectacle this is! lance stirring the pot... clearly too early in the race to make much of it but fun nonetheless.


----------



## OES

Snakebit said:


> Since the commentators were discussing the wind situation and just such a possibility, I doubt Lance needed inside information to follow the move. He has always been aware of what is going on and he positioned himself close to the front to be in position to do just what he did. It isn't the first time he has let another team pull him along and likely won't be the last. nothing underhanded about it, Contador should pull his head out and pay attention. Perhaps he learned something today?


What the hell are ypu doing over here talking about bikes and bike racing. But I agree. Contador got schooled. But then some experienced GC contenders, who know better, had their heads in the same sunless region.


----------



## jpick915

I did say probably...


----------



## rocco

BassNBrew said:


> Hmmm....maybe LA has bought off Columbia to work for him.



Not likely... Hincapie and LA are very close friends and perhaps he said something to LA but it's much more likely Armstrong is simply experienced 7 time winner of the Tour and knows what to look for and where to be when.


----------



## slamy

Albeit I'm not a huge Lance fan, but I have watched every Tour since about 1984. This was just smart racing by Lance, plain and simple. I watched the whole stage and there were no tip-offs by Hincapie or the like. I remember thinking to myself with 100km left in the race that Lance was very close to the front of the race (go look for yourself). This wasn't a breakaway by Columbia, they hit the gas, and the field split. If you were up front and smart you went with the lead group, if you fell asleep, well, you were SOL. Horner who is about as smart as a racer hit it right, Lance was not caught napping. If Levi didn't have Horner and him hitting the gas on a stage when everyone thought they should go easier at the Tour of Cali this year, he probably would have lost. These are two experience and savvy riders. Lance knows how to win and he knows this race better then anyone in the field. I still think Contador will win, but he fell asleep and he has no one to blame but himself. To all of you who are crying poor Contador, stop the cry baby soup: it's kinda sad and pathetic. This is how races are won and lost, I bet Contador learned a big lesson today.


----------



## BeeCharmer

fornaca68 said:


> In foresight Contador SHOULD HAVE been toward the front. Frankly, I don't know why he isn't sitting on Lance's wheel the way Jan Ullrich would build campfires on Lance's wheel. Look at the 2009 Giro, Lance is towards the front. Look at the 1999 to 2005 TdFs, Lance is toward the front. Look at the 2005 Tour of Flanders, Lance is towards the front. And I'm speaking as a Contador fan.


Velonews is quoting a rider saying that Contador was the 30th wheel who let the split happen:

"The post-race polemics continued on Monday, with Christophe Le Mevel (Française des Jeux) blaming Contador for the split. "When the split happened I was right on Contador's wheel," he said. "If it's true there were 29 guys in front he must have been 30th and I was 31st. It was him who caused the split. I saw the gap opening up just in front of us and we just couldn't close it. With a lot of leaders stuck, it was complete panic."


----------



## rocco

den bakker said:


> I guess AC is then in the noobsauce together with leipheimer, sastre, menchov, schleck, voigt, schleck, vande velde etc.



AC may have things to learn but he and the others certainly are not noobsauce. These guys just weren't on their best game today.


----------



## ChilliConCarnage

Wow - 8 frickin pages on this thread already.

So, I don't know if it's been said, but Contador is being blamed for the split by Christophe Le Mevel (Française des Jeux) "When the split happened I was right on Contador's wheel," he said. "If it's true there were 29 guys in front he must have been 30th and I was 31st. It was him who caused the split. I saw the gap opening up just in front of us and we just couldn't close it. With a lot of leaders stuck, it was complete panic." 

According to Lance: "It wasn't that they didn't take advantage. It was just that they weren't there," said Armstrong. "When you see what the wind is doing and you have a turn coming up, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you have to go to the front." - basically delivering a verbal smackdown to Contador. So after 8 pages of forum postings, the answer is:

YES

He did just send a message to his young protege. Get your head outta yer keister and pay attention.

As far as Hincapie tipping off his old friend:

Hincapie, who rode by Armstrong’s side for all seven of his Tour wins, was asked that question, and he responded initially with a blank expression, as though weighing his words carefully. “I saw Lance,” he shrugged. “I mean, he was obviously excited [to be in the move] but we were there, just doing our job.

"We had Mick Rogers there," Hincapie continued, "and people were just sitting back [not helping with the chase]. But we saw a moment to attack and we took it."


----------



## OldEndicottHiway

jpick915 said:


> I did say probably...



It'll be interesting, for sure. 

What some people may have missed, is that according LA if I understood correctly, are his "numbers" (wattage,vo2max etc) are the same as '02, I think it was, going into the Tour.

Training/living at high altitude, which he has been, changes things... and I don't think just in terms of hgb/hct.


----------



## uzziefly

stellaartois said:


> That might be the case, but Lance isn't doing any of this for the viewers, he's doing this for himself. And all of this talk of better coverage....what does that mean? More Phil and Paul opining about how great Lance and David Millar are? hahahaha, joking, right?
> 
> What are they gonna talk about when Lance finally tests positive? Of course if it won't tarnish his old victories, right?
> 
> I agree, any of the favs who were caught out made a mistake....but for members of your own team to be pulling the group further up the road from you makes no sense....unless your purpose is to win by yourself, for yourself.
> 
> Hahahaha, dinner tonight at the hotel should be interesting. But I would not be surprised at all if Alberto splits.....what a bunch of crap. I've actually done the same thing, when my "team" decided that I wasnt good enough to race up with the A racers, I left....and life suddenly got a lot easier and more fun.


And of course, you had to mention drug testing. Great.

Take that to the other forum.

Wait, you also realize, that JB could have asked Astana to push on a little? Of course, you don't see that as a possibility though. 

It makes sense to get LA up in the GC and have 4 men within a few seconds of each other. It makes sense if you're JB and have the best GC team out there. It also makes sense if you want this to happen so as to keep other teams guessing.

But of course, nothing makes sense other than the fact LA is a tool right?


----------



## rocco

ChilliConCarnage said:


> Wow - 8 frickin pages on this thread already.
> 
> So, I don't know if it's been said, but Contador is being blamed for the split by Christophe Le Mevel (Française des Jeux) "When the split happened I was right on Contador's wheel," he said. "If it's true there were 29 guys in front he must have been 30th and I was 31st. It was him who caused the split. I saw the gap opening up just in front of us and we just couldn't close it. With a lot of leaders stuck, it was complete panic."
> 
> Lance said he could tell by the wind and the turn coming up what was going to happen: "it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what to do" in that situation - basically delivering a verbal smackdown to Contador. So after 8 pages of forum postings, the answer is:
> 
> YES
> 
> He did just send a message to his young protege. Get your head outta yer keister and pay attention.



Yeah but he's the "leader"!


----------



## TedH

TheDon said:


> As much of an asshat as Lance is, he's still making this race exciting. Usually the first week is kind of boring for GC stuff.


Tactical excellence combined with ruthlessness.

I just watched Ocean's Eleven last night; reminds of Ruben's comment about Terry Benedict "he'll kill you, and then he'll go to work on you."


----------



## tri-ac

to all the hincapie/armstrong hint theorists, it's not really a surprise that Columbia was looking to deliver their man...every team knew this going into the day...anyone who cared should have been marking renshaw/cavendish as soon as Columbia started to move to the front


----------



## TmaxR

BeeCharmer said:


> Velonews is quoting a rider saying that Contador was the 30th wheel who let the split happen:
> 
> "The post-race polemics continued on Monday, with Christophe Le Mevel (Française des Jeux) blaming Contador for the split. "When the split happened I was right on Contador's wheel," he said. "If it's true there were 29 guys in front he must have been 30th and I was 31st. It was him who caused the split. I saw the gap opening up just in front of us and we just couldn't close it. With a lot of leaders stuck, it was complete panic."


Now that is interesting. Maybe Contador is secretly working for Lance. He was just blocking!


----------



## rocco

stevesbike said:


> LA is going to win this tour - that was the message. Seriously. There's not a whole lot to fear re summit finishes this year. Stage 7 is the only HC summit finish besides Ventoux, but it comes too early. And I think LA is still building form (he and Levi's training prep was to ride into form at the Tour).



As usual other than on the issue of some equipment I pretty much agree with you... pretty much because I'm not as a sure as you seem to be but I think he has a good shot in part for the reasons you mention.


----------



## Snakebit

OES said:


> What the hell are ypu doing over here talking about bikes and bike racing. But I agree. Contador got schooled. But then some experienced GC contenders, who know better, had their heads in the same sunless region.


Damn I hope the man is for real. This will be the most interesting Tour since, well, since the last time he was in it. I can pronounce Armstrong.


----------



## BassNBrew

TmaxR said:


> Now that is interesting. Maybe Contador is secretly working for Lance. He was just blocking!


Or that JB is a freaking genisus if he mastermind all this carnage to position the team for a podium sweep.


----------



## PJay

*ditto*



tri-ac said:


> to all the hincapie/armstrong hint theorists, it's not really a surprise that Columbia was looking to deliver their man...every team knew this going into the day...anyone who cared should have been marking renshaw/cavendish as soon as Columbia started to move to the front


i agree - this had to have been breakfast conversation.

plus you know the final 3rd of the course is gonna be variably windy.


----------



## OES

OldEndicottHiway said:


> It'll be interesting, for sure.
> 
> What some people may have missed, is that according LA if I understood correctly, are his "numbers" (wattage,vo2max etc) are the same as '02, I think it was, going into the Tour.
> 
> Training/living at high altitude, which he has been, changes things... and I don't think just in terms of hgb/hct.


And, as Longstreet said about Lee before a battle, 'His blood is up.' _No_, not crit, just the bloodlust to win. Put Lance in the TdF and he's a maddened snorting animal. Not saying he's going to win, necessarily, but he'll damn sure try.


----------



## grrrah

Its been said earlier in this thread, but the two Astana guys helped the break because there were no other GC contenders in the break, now Astana has another threat up at the top in addition to Contador.

Forget that it was LA for a second and assume it was Kloeden or Levi. They would have done the same thing, but wouldn't have helped if Sastre, Evans, or the Schlecks were in the break (put time into AC), so as a team, their tactics still make sense. Now they have 1 more bullet closer to the top. If they didn't help, they would be in the exact same spot, but 1 less contender up top.

Now if Contador and Lance were swapped, and JB called for no helping the break, then you have contraversey, but we will never know (unless this happens again).


----------



## uzziefly

See this thread perhaps.


----------



## OES

Snakebit said:


> Damn I hope the man is for real. This will be the most interesting Tour since, well, since the last time he was in it. I can pronounce Armstrong.


Y'all Texans hang together.

I hope he's for real too, though.


----------



## DZfan14

What difference does it make whether or not Astana's three riders helped out in the break or not? There wasn't much distance left in the stage and it wasn't like the peloton was threatening to close the gap.

What was surprising to me was how disorganized the peloton and that they could never get it together to close. Really bad day for Garmin. Damn. 

The 27 or so riders in that break were wide awake. I'm not a big Lance fan, but if Contador throws a hissy fit over this then he is a total puss.


----------



## arshak

I think the key words here are: "The fireworks from Columbia-HTC came when, according to team captain George Hincapie, they found themselves alone at the front in strong crosswinds trying to bring back the breakaway.

"None of the other sprinters teams would come up and help, so we just got angry and decided to split the bunch in the crosswinds," Hincapie said.

The Saxo Bank team, which had been at the front all day, yielded to the boys in yellow and white, leaving only Fabian Cancellara, clad in the maillot jaune of race leader, to tuck in behind the vicious pace of the Columbia boys as they shredded the peloton." from cyclingnews.com


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## munga22

Posted this in the wrong spot earlier.....

I think Uzziefly hit it on the head. Put yourself in the team car as the DS. A split occurs in the field.... 

-The lead group contains one of your best riders (who happened to win the tour 7 times) and what other GC contender?? Mik Rogers? No one that either lance or AC couldn't easily dispatch over 3 weeks.

-Part of your strategy is to make it difficult for other teams to know who to concentrate on - the multiple leader approach

What are the options?
1) Drop LA, Popo and Zubeldia back to the 2nd group to help chase like crazy. But there's no one worth chasing. It's not like Evans was up the road in the lead group
2) Just sit in with the lead group. You're going to gain time but maybe not as much. Let's say not contributing your 2 guys means the gap is 10 seconds less. What good has this done?
3) Do some work and extend the gaps as much as possible.

3 seems the obvious choice to me. It's the best tactic for the TEAM. AC was at no risk of losing time to his main rivals and Lance was putting time into them. As a side benefit, you strengthen your lead in the team competition (not that this is anyone's main objective).

There may be a real rift in the team or it may just be part of the strategy. I'm not sure that has any bearing on the decision made today on the road. AC might be upset but if he's the best, he'll get his chance to prove it.

So the question I'll ask those who see a problem with the tactics is "what should have been done instead of putting in as much time as possible?"


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## DMFT

Prolene said:


> If Contador was concerned about LA, shouldn't he have been on Lance's wheel at all times? He wouldn't have missed the break in that case.



- BINGO!
Honestly, I can't believe JB let his team get that far apart from each other regardless of "who" the captain is. They are ALWAYS together at the front. Except today.....

This really is going to be an exciting Tour this year....


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## a_avery007

just remember when LA was on the front across that stage in France when the tide went out and in, i think it was like a 6ft swing, and Ulrich got caught out. he lost the tour by less than one minute that year i believe and he lost like 3+ minutes on the crash separation..


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## Coolhand

OldEndicottHiway said:


> What pill?
> 
> He just got skooled.


No, he didn't really. He was with most of the other GC guys. Did Sastre get schooled? Andy S? CVV? Menchov? Cadel? Yes, he should have been up there- but he had 40+ seconds in hand, has proved he can TT and showed there is nothing wrong with his climbing legs. 

He is going gain time on his rivals in the TTT. And once the race hits the mountains, the race is his to lose. A 37 year old Lance won't be able to match his accelerations- may only be 2-3 guys in the whole peloton who will be able to, and they are about to lose 2-3 minutes to him. He's in the perfect position. Even better if Armstrong makes his own Tour with a couple days in yellow- takes pressure of him (and the team) as well.


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## SilasCL

a_avery007 said:


> just remember when LA was on the front across that stage in France when the tide went out and in, i think it was like a 6ft swing, and Ulrich got caught out. he lost the tour by less than one minute that year i believe and he lost like 3+ minutes on the crash separation..


That was '99. Ullrich didn't race the tour that year. Lance won by 7:30 over Alex Zulle who lost around 6 minutes behind the crash on the Passage du Gois.


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## zosocane

*I think this sums it all up nicely.*

"I've won the Tour de France seven times, why wouldn't you ride at the front? It makes no sense that you wouldn't ride there. "It's good positioning, experience, a little bit of luck," he said of his ability to make the split. "Just before that corner I was twenty guys back and I just decided when I did to move up to be on that if it went. "It was not a typical day. It had a lot of open areas with a lot of seafront. Those days, you've got to stay up the front."


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## jptaylorsg

I'm no expert, and my info on this stage is what I've read in this thread, but I have a couple of thoughts.

1. Shame on Contador for not being near the front. Any contender should put himself near the front because if trouble happens, you always want to be in front of it if you have GC aspirations

2. I figure the team did the right thing. For JB, in the end he probably thinks the team's best chance to win is Contador, but if LA ends up winning, that's fine for him, too. Best to gain some time for your GC guys where you can get it. Racing is racing. JB probably feels that if Contador is going to win it'll be because no one can stay with him in the mtns, and they can't take time from him in the TTs. Today doesn't change that. 19 seconds is nothing if Contador drops the field on a couple of climbs.

3. LA isn't a douche for being smart and jumping into the break, and he isn't a douche for riding as hard and well as he can.

4. LA IS a douche for continually insisting that the team has 2 leaders and failing to at least be coy or diplomatic when Bruyneel has said that Contador is the leader. He may feel that he's going to win and take over the team, but until his boss says that's the strategy, he should probably just shut up about it. He's feeding mystery and dissent within the team, and there's no reason to.

Just my $0.02


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## rodster

Has anyone considered that AC's physique plays into this? Not too many featherweights winning Belgian Classics where strong winds separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## a_avery007

*thank*



SilasCL said:


> That was '99. Ullrich didn't race the tour that year. Lance won by 7:30 over Alex Zulle who lost around 6 minutes behind the crash on the Passage du Gois.



you for correcting me..lol

i was just trying to remember when that was, i was thinking 2000, and Euro that year or another earlier.

good memory mate!!!


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## SlowMo

*I don't disagree, but....*



rodster said:


> Has anyone considered that AC's physique plays into this? Not too many featherweights winning Belgian Classics where strong winds separate the wheat from the chaff.


It's not that difficult to be "the best stage racer" and figure out how to draft.


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## zosocane

*Prophetic Words From the Badger -- BEFORE Today's Start*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLrRLEfTQQ


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## 55x11

mohair_chair said:


> It's all over for Contador. I don't see him playing a support role, so he'll likely drop out of the race tomorrow.


 heheee


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## Coolhand

Details from Velonews:



> Astana manager Johan Bruyneel insisted that no one is playing favorites within team tactics.
> 
> “If it had been Levi or Kloden in the same position, we would have ridden the same. It doesn’t matter who is in that situation,” Bruyneel said. “We let the others work in the break, because I thought it would come back together. But when the gap was still big with 10km to go, that’s when we put Zubeldia and Popovych to work. Then it was good for us and the other teams had to work harder to chase.”
> 
> Among the legitimate GC contenders, only Armstrong, Linus Gerdemann (Milram – 7th at 1:03), Columbia’s Rogers (11th at 1:13) and Kim Kirchen (who climbed from 109th to 37th at 1:57 back) were in the front group.


Nice job by Mick Rogers BTW. . .


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## rocco

fornaca68 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLrRLEfTQQ



He made at least three comments that proved to be precisely correct.


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## sometimerider

arshak said:


> History repeats itself. 2001 tdf and the Passage du Boise stage where LA's team drilled it and put 40+ minutes into the peloton


Huh? I don't recall any time when Lance led the peloton by 40 minutes,

I suspect you're thinking of 1999 and the Passage du Gois stage. A water induced crash caused a split in the field and the lead group, including LA, got over 6 minutes on the peloton - which included the main favorite Alex Zulle. (LA ended up winning the Tour by 7 minutes over Zulle.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passage_du_Gois


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## Snakebitten

When you hate someone its easy to "find" bad motives for the things they do even if they have done the same things everyone has/would have done. 

Lance didnt do anything wrong. I believe it was pure experience that had him right there with the break. Just look at his past track record of being in the front. How could anyone find fault or some conspiracy with a consistant 7 time TDF champ lol. 

I do wonder about why AC didnt break as the rider behind him questioned. He has more than enough experience to know what was about to happen yet he did nothing. Maybe it was to bring LA into a top 5 position so he and AC could shred the field in the mountains. Maybe the team orders were for AC to hang there and give old LA a chance to come up the standings without significantly harming AC. AC is younger and may be fresher for the mountain stage and he is the fav. Why not give the old champ a little nod in the standings, let him get a jersey, play up Astana's dominance, AC wins with LA coming in 2nd on his comeback, Astana 1,2 finish.....Win win for Astana.


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## Circlip

Snakebit said:


> Since the commentators were discussing the wind situation and just such a possibility, I doubt Lance needed inside information to follow the move. He has always been aware of what is going on and he positioned himself close to the front to be in position to do just what he did. It isn't the first time he has let another team pull him along and likely won't be the last. nothing underhanded about it, Contador should pull his head out and pay attention. Perhaps he learned something today?


Given that some of the DSs were studying wind charts plus have prior experience with stages like today and the possibilities that can arise, not to mention team mates that also have that same experience and knowledge, do you think maybe someone could have shared a bit of that insight with their supposed team leader? Sure it would be better if AC could figure these things out for himself, but isn't a team (manager, more experienced riders, etc.) there to HELP you with these situations? Spelling lesson for the day = TEiAM


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## Snakebit

Circlip said:


> Given that some of the DSs were studying wind charts plus have prior experience with stages like today and the possibilities that can arise, not to mention team mates that also have that same experience and knowledge, do you think maybe someone could have shared a bit of that insight with their supposed team leader? Sure it would be better if AC could figure these things out for himself, but isn't a team (manager, more experienced riders, etc.) there to HELP you with these situations? Spelling lesson for the day = TEiAM


This is a team that went into the Tour uncertain of who was the leader. If the manager didn't give him the information, shame on him. Lance was toward the front as he always tries to be to avoid crashes. The break went and he went with it. Opportunistic sure but not treacherous. The story is that Contador is the best overall in the mountains and if that is so, Lance's 19 second lead on him won't hold up long I would think. It's no secret that this team is less than cohesive and that might just hurt all four of their big name riders with aspirations. Then again, if one or more can take advantage of other teams helping their star at the front, maybe not. We should all enjoy this one.


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## sometimerider

fornaca68 said:


> Prophetic Words From the Badger -- BEFORE Today's Start http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLrRLEfTQQ


Yikes! Hinault: _(watch out for the wind) - You need to be in the front 30, at least, to avoid mishaps_.

What was the size of the front group? 28?

Tell us more, Bernie!


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## KenS

*Real message went to Silence-Lotto*

Order of finish...

32. Cadel Evans Silence - Lotto in 5:02:05 at 00:41 

No other Silence-Lotto rider above...

128. Alexandre Botcharov Team Katusha in 5:02:05 at 00:41


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## tete de la tour

I predict that contador will not drop everyone in the mountains as expected. AS a matter a fact I predict he will get dropped. the people he has been dropping in the mountain are not the great climbers. Not the And Schlecks and the Sastres . Albeit some times he shows signs of great climbing skills but nothing extraordinary. I mean cadel was dropping him in the DL and he has never race in top condition with the like of Andy Schleck and the liguigas boys who are going to surprise everyone. *I still would put my money on cadel after his performance at the DL* the guy is in amazing form. an i personally am not that big of a fan but you can see it. Also remember Levi dropping Contrador int he 2007 tour on a mountain top finish. after play domestic for 2 days,, pa attentions boys Alberto is no angel. Even tho I would love for him to win. He is not in the mountains dominant like Cav is in the sprints ; HTC " phone call anybody?


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## safetyguy

Food for thought,

If LA is in Yellow after tomorrow I can’t image AC attacking him on the first (and other) mountain stages. Think about it, who is going on the attack in the mountains with LA in yellow? Cadel, Sastre? Methinks that LA can stay on their wheels. However if LA gets dropped by any of the other contenders AC will have free reign to launch his own attacks.


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## Coolhand

KenS said:


> Order of finish...
> 
> 32. Cadel Evans Silence - Lotto in 5:02:05 at 00:41
> 
> No other Silence-Lotto rider above...
> 
> 128. Alexandre Botcharov Team Katusha in 5:02:05 at 00:41



Good point.


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## williethewaiter

safetyguy said:


> Food for thought,
> 
> If LA is in Yellow after tomorrow I can’t image AC attacking him on the first (and other) mountain stages. Think about it, who is going on the attack in the mountains with LA in yellow? Cadel, Sastre? Methinks that LA can stay on their wheels. However if LA gets dropped by any of the other contenders AC will have free reign to launch his own attacks.


Hmm dunno - you could also look at it that Contador WILL attack, putting the other riders on the defensive... then Lance just sits on their wheels and if they pull back contador, away goes lance.. Or Levi... or kloden

they've got plenty of options... Lance and Alberto can look after themselves...

Why not have Kloden attack? The other teams may disregard him while watching L&A and whoops now Kloden is in Yellow!!


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## Ride-Fly

stellaartois said:


> ...when my "team" decided that I wasnt good enough to race up with the A racers, I left....and life suddenly got a lot easier and more fun.


You still haven't gotten over it by the looks of it. Bitter is not a good way to go through life. Bitter is only good in English ESB!!


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## Tugboat

I fund it a little ironic that Bruyneel is claiming "surprise" that a split like this occurred when on the stage through the Carmague in 2007 (almost identical to this stage but run in the reverse direction), Astana under Bruyneel's directorship did exactly the same thing to the peloton as we saw Colombia-HTC do last night. 



cyclingnews.com in 2007 said:


> At the sprint in Arles, picturesque city to the north of the Camargue marshes, it was Florencio who took the points ahead of Wegmann. Millar made it across at the 97 kilometre point, bridging after a ten kilometre chase through the beautiful city of Arles, famous for it's Roman arena.
> 
> The gap back to the peloton had soared after the feed zone and was up to 7'30". However that wouldn't last long. After the peloton passed through the feed zone and moved into the Departement du Gard, Astana decided to take advantage of the strong sidewinds in the open farm roads west of Arles and the Kazakh squad attacked hard. As the temperatures hovered around 35 degrees, this surprising move split the peloton in two, with Moreau, Thor Hushovd (Crédit Agricole) and Erik Zabel (Milram) caught behind.
> 
> Astana was joined in the action by Quick.Step - Innergetic, Barloworld and Saunier Duval - Prodir and outside the village of Lunel, with 38 kilometres left to race, the inexorable progression of the Astana steamroller rolled over the break.


It's unbelievable that the team briefing wouldn't have stressed the need to position well for the forming of echelons and to remain attentive to the impact that the crosswinds could have, especially given it's a tactic that Bruyneel's own team used so devastatingly effectively just 2 years ago. Contador today (and Evans, Sastre and the Schlecks) were victims of their own lazy comfort of being "protected" riders.


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## The Tedinator

I tend to be a little more kinder to Alberto, Levi, Cadel, etc: it was 140-160 kilometers into the race on a 94 degree day. I have never raced, but I have done 65 km in the deep south in July; and to say that I wasn't thinking clearly is an understatement.

As for the conspiracies, IMHO; everything can be summed up in watching Fabian C. bunny hop the curb and sprint like mad when the peleton changed direction. He (and L.A.) instinctively knew that this was the moment, without the benefit of Columbia letting them in on the secret.

I


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## ZoSoSwiM

Watching the TTT right now and JB is totally defending lance. By all outward appearances the team is saying that they're just trying to keep their team up front. 

"We don't want to put all of our cards on one horse."


Hmm.. well looks like we'll see in a few days what happens.


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