# Stage 13 Pau-Lourdes Discussion (Spoiler Potential)



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Hi - I guess Weltyed is still having electrical problems. So, I am setting this thread so we can discuss Stage 13, Pau- Lourdes.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*could cadel take this one?*

could cadel take this one?

as i type, the leader is nearing the peak. the peleton is abt 7 min back, not a big deal for a 30mile downhill finish - esp since there are a lot of riders bridging fro the peleton to the lead. this will be a big snowball.

so cadel - or anyone with legs and a strong finish - could maneuver thru the peleton and win.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

from a GC perspective this will most likely be a snooze fest


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*please no crashes today.*

please no crashes today. the road has to be slippery up in the clouds there


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*ok, peleton may not sweep up everyone*

ok, peleton may not sweep up everyone-
they are more than 10 min behind lead, and ther is not much strategery in sweeping up everyone.

GC competitiors, tho, have lots of guys ahead of peleton to bridge them if they want to peel off the front.


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

PJay said:


> ok, peleton may not sweep up everyone-
> they are more than 10 min behind lead, and ther is not much strategery in sweeping up everyone.
> 
> GC competitiors, tho, have lots of guys ahead of peleton to bridge them if they want to peel off the front.


how much energy would they to expend to do that bridge? a lot
how much time would they possibly gain? not much

no gc guy is going to do anything. big day tomorrow, they're saving it up for that.
nothing is going to happen on gc today


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Love the smile on Thor's face after he pulled away from Roy.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

jorgy said:


> Love the smile on Thor's face after he pulled away from Roy.


Great win for him.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*wow. well-ridden, thor*

wow. well-ridden, thor


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Thor!


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

DAMN!!! Thor rode like the God of Thunder today... amazing climb for him and then...

Did you see...

He *CRUSHED* Moncoutie... and then *CRUSHED* Roy.... It was like a Ferrari racing a couple of Toyota Corollas.

That was a helluva ride by Thor. He was FLYING in around those bends in to town.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

jorgy said:


> Love the smile on Thor's face after he pulled away from Roy.


A well earned smile!

My first reaction to his initial move was WTF? But it made sense for him given the profile (get out early, hope to make the top in position to contend for the stage on the long run in, probably by chasing someone down) and how strong he has been riding. The tactic makes sense, but it is rarely pulled off. 

I was expecting boring today, but I was pleasantly surprised. :thumbsup:


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## Tugboat (Jul 17, 2006)

Planned all along by Garmin?



Julian Dean after stage 7 said:


> Anyway, Thor wasn't badly placed and at the moment just doesn't seem to have the turn of speed the pure sprinters do - a price for climbing so well. I’m sure he will win somewhere in the 2 weeks. My prediction is stage 13 for him.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Stupendous ride from Thor. I don't think anyone predicted that.


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm starting to think they've been lying to us for the past few years, Thor is not just a sprinter anymore ;p 

Today felt like watching a lineman score a few touchdown in the same game ;p


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Fireform said:


> Stupendous ride from Thor. I don't think anyone predicted that.


Amazing. In morning predictions I was surprised nobody picked Thor - on cyclingnews preview of stages Matt White predicted Thor will sprint from the large group, and I thought it was a very good prediction (other picks would be Gilbert or Chavanel) - but it was really a bit surprising to see Thor go for a solo win with 2K to go. 

What a way to hang in there on the climbs - with the likes of Moncoutie and Roy.

Amazing win, I am happy for Thor!


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

It's not unprecidented to see a Sprinter (like) Hushovd become a fairly good climber later in their career.

Look at Laurent Jalabert... (one of my ALL TIME favorite riders) He won the Green Jersey twice in the Tour (92 and 95) and then came back and won the Polka Dots twice (01 and 02) 

Jalabert was a crazy take no prisoners, I'll put my bike in spots no one else would dare to put it, type of sprinter early... and then later in his career he was able to climb well enough to take enough points on different stages where he could take the KOM competition.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

55x11 said:


> Amazing. In morning predictions I was surprised nobody picked Thor - on cyclingnews preview of stages Matt White predicted Thor will sprint from the large group, and I thought it was a very good prediction (other picks would be Gilbert or Chavanel) - but it was really a bit surprising to see Thor go for a solo win with 2K to go.
> 
> *What a way to hang in there on the climbs - with the likes of Moncoutie and Roy.*
> 
> Amazing win, I am happy for Thor!



Actually... Thor looked amazingly comfortable on the climb... at times it looked like he was on a ride home from the corner store. He had a nice, smooth, high cadence like he was a pure climber.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Rest yesterday, strong today.

Nice win.

len


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> It's not unprecidented to see a Sprinter (like) Hushovd become a fairly good climber later in their career.
> 
> Look at Laurent Jalabert... (one of my ALL TIME favorite riders) He won the Green Jersey twice in the Tour (92 and 95) and then came back and won the Polka Dots twice (01 and 02)
> 
> Jalabert was a crazy take no prisoners, I'll put my bike in spots no one else would dare to put it, type of sprinter early... and then later in his career he was able to climb well enough to take enough points on different stages where he could take the KOM competition.


You might be right, this is maybe what thor is trying to do, reinvent himself a little considering Cav is dominating the sprints and guys like Tyler are fast becoming better (if not already) than him a sprinting. Tricks like this might be a more successful way for him to get TV time during the tour. 

He's definitively been one of the most exciting part of the tour this year.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Garmin has come so far so quickly.


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## aengbretson (Sep 17, 2009)

Great ride by the man in the rainbow jersey. Sure it helped he was a ways down but when I turned on the TV this morning and saw both Hushovd and Petacchi in the break (pre-Aubisque) I was thinking "WTF?" Stellar descending and at fist I thought Moncoutie was not working because he didn't want to be panned for chasing a fellow French rider, and then that he would let Thor do all the work to catch Roy and then attack, but Thor's move inside of 3k showed just how hard the pace was! That kind of ride wins lots of respect from me - tactically sound and full of heart and grit.

Coincidentally I got called "Thor" on my AM ride due to doing two solid leadouts in sprints (and likely my Norwegian heritage)


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## xjbaylor (Dec 28, 2006)

Marc said:


> Great win for him.


Is this where SeeVee shows up to tell us that it wasn't a good win because the GC guys didn't care if he got away? That he was opportunistic because he knew the GC guys were saving their form for tomorrow. That unless you are going to finish on the podium holding the yellow jersey and/or being the world champ is pointless. 

Or maybe he just dislikes Frenchmen.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Thor is almost the story of the tour, just behind the crashes. Fun to watch him succeed.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

nims said:


> You might be right, this is maybe what thor is trying to do, reinvent himself a little considering Cav is dominating the sprints and guys like Tyler are fast becoming better (if not already) than him a sprinting. Tricks like this might be a more successful way for him to get TV time during the tour.
> 
> He's definitively been one of the most exciting part of the tour this year.



Well... Laurent Jalabert didn't reinvent himself to get more TV time...

This happened (the wreck at the beginning of this clip)






He wrecked his face in that crash and promised his wife he would change his riding style... He did win another Green Jersey after that crash but he wasn't nearly the same type of sprinter after it.

He reinvinted himself as a climber and I think he extended his career by doing so... that dude was a bad ass.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> It's not unprecidented to see a Sprinter (like) Hushovd become a fairly good climber later in their career.
> 
> Look at Laurent Jalabert... (one of my ALL TIME favorite riders) He won the Green Jersey twice in the Tour (92 and 95) and then came back and won the Polka Dots twice (01 and 02)
> 
> Jalabert was a crazy take no prisoners, I'll put my bike in spots no one else would dare to put it, type of sprinter early... and then later in his career he was able to climb well enough to take enough points on different stages where he could take the KOM competition.


Yep. Thor is a champion, not just because he has won, but because he finds new ways to win when the old ways don't work anymore.

A lot of sprinters will just continue to try to be sprinters even though they've lost their top-end speed and never finish better than 7th anymore. Thor recognized by last year or earlier that he just didn't have the speed anymore to go head to head against guys like Cav.

So instead of vainly trying to win bunch sprints, he's transformed himself so he could still win. because 5th isn't bad against guys like cav, farrar, etc., but 1st is much better!


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## LittleRoadBiker (Sep 4, 2008)

jorgy said:


> Love the smile on Thor's face after he pulled away from Roy.


It really was. I clapped/cheared watching it on my phone at work. My coworkers looked at me like I was drunk haha.


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

remember guys that Thor is training with Philippe Gilbert. He is not a pure sprinter anymore but one of the most complète rider.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

biobanker said:


> Garmin has come so far so quickly.


Garmin really has had one HELLUVA Tour so far... too bad they don't have (what I would consider) a real legitimate horse in the overall GC race.

If they can keep the same core of guys going in to next years Tour and pick up a real GC contender they could clean house in the TdF next year. Maybe Vande Velde can make enough progress between now and then... I dunno.


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## harlond (May 30, 2005)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> Garmin really has had one HELLUVA Tour so far... too bad they don't have (what I would consider) a real legitimate horse in the overall GC race.
> 
> If they can keep the same core of guys going in to next years Tour and pick up a real GC contender they could clean house in the TdF next year. Maybe Vande Velde can make enough progress between now and then... I dunno.


Vande Velde is 35, progress seems highly unlikely. Maybe Dan Martin, but they're not exactly pushing him along at a rapid pace.


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## TheDon (Feb 3, 2006)

Garmin would be stupid right now not to offer Thor whatever he wants.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> If they can keep the same core of guys going in to next years Tour and pick up a real GC contender they could clean house in the TdF next year. Maybe Vande Velde can make enough progress between now and then... I dunno.



Maybe not next year, but Talansky is looking promising.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

harlond said:


> Vande Velde is 35, progress seems highly unlikely. Maybe Dan Martin, but they're not exactly pushing him along at a rapid pace.


LOL... I was trying to see the "glass half full" for Garmin... but you're right about Vande Velde. I honestly don't see anyone on the squad that is a legitimate GC contender... they need to fix that and they'll be pretty stacked.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

88 rex said:


> Maybe not next year, but Talansky is looking promising.


No doubt about it! Andrew Talansky does look promising but he's a good 3 or 4 years from being in (and contending in) the Tour de France. He's never experienced anything approaching the TdF... he has a couple top 5s in some stage races but all the stage races he's been in so far have been 5, 6, 7 days... not 23.

Andrew Talansky will be there in the future, but Cervelo really needs to sign a true GC contender for the here and now.


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

The way that Thor rode today makes me wonder why he's not placed higher. He can climb and hold a steady strong pace for a long time everywhere else.

It's surprising how well he climbed today with his weight at 180 lbs. There are guys at his height that are 20 pounds lighter. His BMI is considered almost overweight. His BMI is 24.4. 25 is considered overweight on the standard scale.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

Alkan said:


> The way that Thor rode today makes me wonder why he's not placed higher. He can climb and hold a steady strong pace for a long time everywhere else.
> 
> It's surprising how well he climbed today with his weight at 180 lbs. There are guys at his height that are 20 pounds lighter. His BMI is considered almost overweight. His BMI is 24.4. 25 is considered overweight on the standard scale.


That's because basic BMI Calculators are stupid. They don't take many (important) factors in to consideration. It just takes your height and weight and spits out a BMI without consideration of muscle mass, body fat % etc.

By a BMI calculator at 6'4" 258 lbs Brian Urlacher of the Chicago Bears is considered Obese...










Does that guy look Obese to you?


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## ColdRider (Mar 17, 2005)

Alkan said:


> The way that Thor rode today makes me wonder why he's not placed higher. He can climb and hold a steady strong pace for a long time everywhere else.
> 
> It's surprising how well he climbed today with his weight at 180 lbs. There are guys at his height that are 20 pounds lighter. His BMI is considered almost overweight. His BMI is 24.4. 25 is considered overweight on the standard scale.


Just a little clarification about BMI... Although you are correct in saying that > 25 is considered "overweight", it is not a steadfast "rule". For folks with large bones or of very muscular build, the equation will overestimate their "true" BMI. I think our buddy Thor is of the second category :thumbsup:

His placing is reflective of his "sprinter" build. He normally runs with the autobus on the really mountainous stages. He climbs well, but nothing comapred to the true/better climbers. He lost what? 2 mins on the climb to Roy? I can't wait to see the stage tho!


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## tbgtbg (Mar 13, 2009)

Len J said:


> Rest yesterday, strong today.


Yep, he said as much... From eurosport,

"Winning alone after a hard climb like the Col d'Aubisque is incredible. It's the craziest thing I have ever done. I took it easy in the mountains yesterday and saved my legs, which is why I won today."


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Thor is a wheelsucker. I read it in here so it must be true...


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

kbwh said:


> Thor is a wheelsucker. I read it in here so it must be true...


You want to bring up Paris-Roubaix again?


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## Alkan (Jun 30, 2011)

I know that that's considered overweight on the BMI scale, but I know that the BMI scale is way too generic to consider the wide variety of muscle masses that people have.

People's true BMI's require muscle mass information. But I was meaning to make the point that it's ironic that he is almost overweight on that scale and is yet extremely lean.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

Alkan said:


> I know that that's considered overweight on the BMI scale, but I know that the BMI scale is way too generic to consider the wide variety of muscle masses that people have.
> 
> People's true BMI's require muscle mass information. *But I was meaning to make the point that it's ironic that he is almost overweight on that scale and is yet extremely lean*.


I understand what you're saying... but I think the irony speaks to how stupid a BMI calculator is to begin with.

And in terms of Hushovd being overweight on that scale, while being extreamly lean is do to the fact that the BMI calc doesn't even consider leanness (or lack of) Which is one of the major reasons it's a dumb measurement.

I mean... Have you noticed that most BMI Calcs don't even ask gender? You just plug in Height and Weight and then it tells you that you are fat... and it always tells you that you are fat unless you are (nearly) anorexic or bulimic. 

In FACT.... that very calc was a contributing factor in a local girl becoming anorexic here around where I live. And my Sister in Law freaked out when the Dr. told her my Nephew was obese (he's 5) according to that scale... and he is NOT any more obese than Brian Urlacher is.

That scale is precisely why you always hear the bullcrap line that 60% of Americans are Obese... now I'm not saying there aren't people in America that are truely overweight... but a scale that rates just about EVERYONE (or nearly everyone) as overweight, or worse, scews the actual facts.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> I understand what you're saying... but I think the irony speaks to how stupid a BMI calculator is to begin with.
> 
> And in terms of Hushovd being overweight on that scale, while being extreamly lean is do to the fact that the BMI calc doesn't even consider leanness (or lack of) Which is one of the major reasons it's a dumb measurement.
> 
> ...


I'm on record as being a strong critic of the BMI but having seen patients of all socioeconomic ranks, the majority of Americans are overweight. Just because a measurement rates everything as an extreme isn't a valid criticism.


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

Henry Porter said:


> I'm on record as being a strong critic of the BMI but having seen patients of all socioeconomic ranks, *the majority of Americans are overweight.* Just because a measurement rates everything as an extreme isn't a valid criticism.



I'm sorry but we'll have to (strongly) agree to disagee on that. While I will agree there are a lot of overweight Americans... it is not a majority... and it is CERTAINLY not at 60+% like some of the morons on the East Coast (or their wives) would like you to believe.

And BTW... I Laugh my ass off at the fact that the one "Lady" that talks the most about Americans being obese is OBESE HERSELF by that calculation. 
Pot >>> Kettle

And it is a valid criticism if they use a stupid calculation (BMI) to determine who is and who's not Overweight/Obese for their statistics.... which they do.


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## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

*Maybe its just me....*

but that WC kit Thor was wearing made it more bad-ass.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> I'm sorry but we'll have to (strongly) agree to disagee on that. While I will agree there are a lot of overweight Americans... it is not a majority... and it is CERTAINLY not at 60+% like some of the morons on the East Coast (or their wives) would like you to believe.
> 
> And BTW... I Laugh my ass off at the fact that the one "Lady" that talks the most about Americans being obese is OBESE HERSELF by that calculation.
> Pot >>> Kettle
> ...


What makes you think that the average American isn't overweight? Look at these figures: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/healthcare/a/tallbutfat.htm


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

ProdigalCyclist said:


> It's not unprecidented to see a Sprinter (like) Hushovd become a fairly good climber later in their career.


As I recall, Jan Ullrich started his teenage career as a bunch sprinter, slimmed down dramatically to win the tour then couldn't keep the weight off costing his ability to climb against that other guy from Texas (though still did exceptionally well all things considered). Of course, there were other things involved in the physiological metamorphosis (for both mentioned riders) but I wont get into that.


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## j.knight (Dec 14, 2005)

TheDon said:


> Garmin would be stupid right now not to offer Thor whatever he wants.


Funny, I was thinking about how much his next contract, which should come very soon, has improvrd i thr last two weeks. Probably added $750K to the bottom line. 

I actually had the opportunity to meet Thor a few yeas ago. He is a really nice guy and seems totally grounded. I'm happy for his success.


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## ColdRider (Mar 17, 2005)

I'll post last tidbit (from me) about the BMI and go back to stage 13 so not to turn this to a threadjack

1- I agree that is not the most precise tool out there. But I find it (for me as a healthcare professionnal) to be a very useful tool : quick and easy of evaluation of a patient. I can get a quick idea of where a patient stands. I do not find it stupid. It is a tool and has it uses and limits. Following it blindly is "stupid". I do not find a "hammer" being stupid. Then again, I do not swing a hammer blindly 

2- One of the problem with this tool is if people want to be the "lowest healthy" BMI possible that can lead to anorexia. The low-end spectrum of a "healthy" BMI is 18.5. For me, that means I would need to be something like 85lbs.... (I am not 85 lbs!) Too low weight (<18.5) usual points towards lowered immune systems and load of problem so I can relate to Prodigal post about folks going anorexic "because" of it. People go "healthy is 18.5 so 17 or 16 is even better!". It is not!

3- Closing the BMI talk (for me) is that Alkan has nailed the point talking about certain quirks about the BMI calculator. It definitely does not "apply" to top-end athlete (tiny percent of the human population!) but as a TOOL for most of Mom and Dad Joe Average, it's pretty damn useful.

I can't remember which exactly -and my profs would kill me if they knew- but it is used as a predictor for the outcome/progression/detection of some diseases (diabetes/cholesterol or heart disease?). Some serious people put quite a lot of time (peer-reviewed papers) looking into those variables.

3.5- BMI won't ask for gender but a useful "weight" measurement that does that it account is tummy circumference  Tummy circumference is also discriminatory and takes into account ethnicity too!

4- I feel you guys pain, tho, when "folks" go BMI-this and BMI-that without being aware of the caveats of such a measurement.

Back to the discussion for me and saying that I *cannot* wait to watch the stage. This is the fun thing about the tour... you look at the profile and go *yawn*. Then a sprinter catches a good climber on the descent to take the win.... in the world champ jersey... You couldn't script that : people would go... "dude, at least make it believeable!" You never know where the next surprise is going to come from!


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Well, I'm late to the party, but what a great ride by Thor.

Almost felt sorry for Roy when Thor went rocketing past. His was a great ride and you could tell when he crossed the line that he had left it all out on the road.

The bunch was a bit of a snoozefest. 

Two Norwegians in the top ten--whodathunk?


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## ProdigalCyclist (May 3, 2011)

Magsdad said:


> but that WC kit Thor was wearing made it more bad-ass.


Co-sign 1000%


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## Lynton (Jul 9, 2011)

We have had a tour of highs and lows this year and stage 13 was certainly a high. Yes the GC race was a snooze fest but with the major climb so far from the line and a large descent to finish it was most likely going to be that way. Having said that the efforts of the break away were just sensational. 

I had no idea who to go for, originally I was cheering for Thor, particularly after that mad effort on the climb but as Jeremy worked harder and built a good gap I found myself hoping that he holds it together. That last attack by Thor was pure dominance and he was no doubt a very worthy stage winner. This has to be one of the better stages I have seen in some time.

Now for the race for the GC.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

paredown said:


> Well, I'm late to the party, but what a great ride by Thor.
> 
> Almost felt sorry for Roy when Thor went rocketing past. His was a great ride and you could tell when he crossed the line that he had left it all out on the road.
> 
> ...


+eleventy!


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