# Not another Rivendell basher, but ...



## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

How does Rivendell stay in business? I'm not a Riv basher and generally agree with their philosophy about biking. However, it seems like they operate their business in a way that is contrary to actually succeeding. Some examples:

-- Many of the items they sell are out of stock, perpetually, including various stems, saddle bags, racks, you name it.
-- They discontinue making the bike frame (Rambouillet) that is probably their best seller or second best. Even when they did still offer the Rambo, they were very difficult to find.
-- They replace the Rambo with one designed to only work with 650b wheels/tires in an apparent attempt to create a market for those wheels/tires, which are largely unavailable anywhere -- including Rivendell.
-- They don't stock prebuilt 650b wheels even though they apparently are trying to ram them down everyone's throats.

I actually tried to buy a Rambouillet a number of years ago and was told they were out of stock in my size and it would be about 6 months when the next shipment arrived from Japan with no guarantees about availability at that time. So, I shopped around and bought a Merckx Corsa.

I've been looking at Riv's Bleriot frames recently for a commuter/touring bike and it seems well designed for that purpose and a great value for the price. However, the whole 650b wheel thing just baffles me. I've searched the net, and the sources for 650b wheels and tires are extremely limited. The lightest 650b tire available is something like 400 grams with wire beads. In addition, if I have 650b wheels on one of my bikes, then it would be incompatible with my other bikes -- eg, I couldn't switch wheels if a sudden problem arose such as broken spoke. If I bust a rim on a tour, I wouldn't be able to get a replacement.

Am I making a bigger deal out of this than it is?


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

Well, I suppose you could figure that the items are out of stock because people are buying them faster than Riv can restock them. That'd be the nice way to say it. The less nice way to say it would be that they can't seem to get it through their tweed-addled brains that they should order MORE of their popular items.

The thing about Rivendell is that it really is all about Grant and his current flights of fancy. He's a contrarian. He's a curmudgeon. He's an autocrat. And, since it's his company, he can do what he wants with it. If he decides that his most popular bike is no longer to his liking, he can cut it off and try and make people buy the Hilson. 

Personally, I think that for as much as he rails against STI and integrated systems, he really is designing his own integrated systems- you need his brakes for the Hilson, it's designed fit his racks, the bleriot fits his brakes, wheels and tires, etc. Again, it's his company, he can do whatever he wants. But I think hes a little hypocritical. 

I think Velo-Orange (and it's like) will kill off Riv- the owner isn't as crazy, asks his customers what they want, provides his items for better prices, and doesn't whine about his own personal problems (I've got carpel tunnel syndrome! I can't write the reader! I'm fighting with yet another vendor!) on company time.


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## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

Well....LOL! They _do_ seem to operate on a unique business model. Chalk it up to KaliFornia Dreamin'...or something like that. They recently sent me a whole buncha stuff I'd already received from them the month before. I sent it back. 
As far as the 650B thing...it suprises me they don't keep the wheelsets in stock. Their wheelbuilder, Rich Lesnic, probably just got behind. Have to say, his wheels were great, on my Bleriot. And the Bleriot was a super plush ride..._super _plush. But, if I were to do an a tour in the toolies, there's no question it would NOT be on a 650B bike. But if you wanted it for a general purpose bike or commuter here in the states, I don't see what the big deal is about it's 650Bness. Don't even worry about the weight of the tires...you don't buy a 650B based bike with speedo consciousness on your mind. Right around now, I find myself really missing it, because the roads are too much a mess for my regular roadie. That bike ate up whatever winter threw at it without so much as a hiccup.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

wouldn't surprise me if the website is never updated... I mean, that would fit the mo of a co that send out a paper catalog, prefers phone orders (IIRC) and is generally slow to embrace new technology

BTW, the 650b thing is creeping into the mtb world.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Probably*



tarwheel2 said:


> How does Rivendell stay in business? ...Am I making a bigger deal out of this than it is?


Rivendell has always been on the edge of bankruptcy since it started in '94. Grant says they sell a bit over $2,000,000. a year which ain't much for a business but enough to keep them going. 

I expect that when Grant gives up the company goes away although I could see QBP buying the name for a song just like they have done with other brands.

We have a Rambouillet that I really like and a Rivendell All Rounder that Miss M has ridden a ton. They were worth the wait although that wait did piss us off at the time.

I say good luck to them and hope that they keep being their odd and idiosyncratic selves for many more years.

BTW thinking of all the other small bike related companies that have come and gone since '94 makes Rivendell seem almost ageless and quite successful for their size.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The absurd thing is that the Bleriot is actually a very good value and well designed in almost every respect except for the wheels. If you actually tried to tour on a Bleriot, however, you would need to carry a bunch of spare tubes. And if you ruined a tire, I guess you would be out of luck since there apparently no sources for foldable 650b tires.

However, is it true that you can run 650a wheels/tires on that frame? If so, that might make it more practical, as 650a supposedly is more common. Alternatively, could you run 26" wheels/tires on a Bleriot?


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

MB1 said:


> They were worth the wait although that wait did piss us off at the time.
> 
> I say good luck to them and hope that they keep being their odd and idiosyncratic selves for many more years.
> 
> .


I have to admit that I am getting a little dis-illusioned with them. I have an Altantis which I really like and have taken all over the place. But, I can find similar (or the same) parts and accessories for less money elsewhere. My big annoyance right now is that I ordered a custom Rivendell over two years ago (at the time of ordering they were adverstising a wait of 1 year to 18 months). I filled out all the forms, sent in a deposit etc, but had heard nothing. I emailed them a couple of times, finally getting a response last summer that the frame would be ready late 2007. I didn't hear from them until December when I got a call from Grant. He hadn't started designing the bike yet and asked me some questions about how I was going to use it and the like. 

I have been brooding about it for weeks now and am seriously considering cancelling the order because I have no idea when I can expect the frame. I don't even know if the design has gone to the builder yet. I was prepared for some wait and expected some delay, but I was not prepared for that call saying the frame had not even been designed. Who knows how long the framebuilder and painter will take.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Tubes?*



tarwheel2 said:


> The absurd thing is that the Bleriot is actually a very good value and well designed in almost every respect except for the wheels. If you actually tried to tour on a Bleriot, however, you would need to carry a bunch of spare tubes. ..


26" Tubes fit 650B just fine.

Tires OTOH......


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## ARP (Mar 7, 2002)

*The story i heard*



oarsman said:


> I have to admit that I am getting a little dis-illusioned with them. I have an Altantis which I really like and have taken all over the place. But, I can find similar (or the same) parts and accessories for less money elsewhere. My big annoyance right now is that I ordered a custom Rivendell over two years ago (at the time of ordering they were adverstising a wait of 1 year to 18 months). I filled out all the forms, sent in a deposit etc, but had heard nothing. I emailed them a couple of times, finally getting a response last summer that the frame would be ready late 2007. I didn't hear from them until December when I got a call from Grant. He hadn't started designing the bike yet and asked me some questions about how I was going to use it and the like.
> 
> I have been brooding about it for weeks now and am seriously considering cancelling the order because I have no idea when I can expect the frame. I don't even know if the design has gone to the builder yet. I was prepared for some wait and expected some delay, but I was not prepared for that call saying the frame had not even been designed. Who knows how long the framebuilder and painter will take.


Was on a tour last fall, my ride partner finally had his custom Riv. Been talking about it for 2.5 years. Had paid his up front fees and waited...........and waited...........and finally he called to give what for and WTF?. Well it seems on the custom side of things Grant had 2 frame builders with lots of work. One lost his senses and became a closet Nazi or something, had some neo nazi website and was exhibiting some anti social behavior. So he quit welding frames and went away. Now he is down to 1 welder. Thus the backlog. I kept telling my buddy that some little mexican kid welded his frame and not the famous builder whose name escapes me and the understudy of Joe Bell painted it. He was a little aggitated at my suggestions. At any rate, he lost 50% of his welding staff and everything is backed up.

I don't understand why someone would want to buy from them and put themselves into the proprietory parts dilemma. I have dealt with it on my old Schwinn, it is no fun trying to find correct parts.


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## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

_Well it seems on the custom side of things Grant had 2 frame builders with lots of work. One lost his senses and became a closet Nazi or something, had some neo nazi website and was exhibiting some anti social behavior. So he quit welding frames and went away. Now he is down to 1 welder._

This is too rich....you couldn't make this stuff up! The thing is, if you want lugged and fairly traditional road geometry, there are too many others out there who do it for the same or less, and you don't have to put up with all this....eccentricity.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

Doggity said:


> _Well it seems on the custom side of things Grant had 2 frame builders with lots of work. One lost his senses and became a closet Nazi or something, had some neo nazi website and was exhibiting some anti social behavior. So he quit welding frames and went away. Now he is down to 1 welder._
> 
> This is too rich....you couldn't make this stuff up! The thing is, if you want lugged and fairly traditional road geometry, there are too many others out there who do it for the same or less, and you don't have to put up with all this....eccentricity.


I think you are no doubt right. The question plaguing me is if I cancel my order now (and get my deposit back, which I expect I could), I am probably looking at something towards a year or so anyway to get a nice, lugged, traditional frame from another builder.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

oarsman said:


> I think you are no doubt right. The question plaguing me is if I cancel my order now (and get my deposit back, which I expect I could), I am probably looking at something towards a year or so anyway to get a nice, lugged, traditional frame from another builder.


Velo Orange does some seriously nice looking semi-custom rando frames for about the same as riv charges for their production frames... MB1 has nothing but nice things to say about waterford... Heck, Mercian's only got a 3 or 4 month wait right now. Even with the dollar in the toilet, they're still a good deal...


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

buck-50 said:


> .... Even with the dollar in the toilet, they're still a good deal...


Speak for your own dollar: ours has done pretty well this year.


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

oarsman said:


> Speak for your own dollar: ours has done pretty well this year.


We like our Rivendells just fine but we LOVE our Waterfords.

This time of year the wait should be 6 to 8 weeks depending how much custom stuff you want.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

The 650B really wouldn't bother me.. My Bike Friday use 451 sized tires...Other models use 406 size. Skinny tires for either is next to impossible in an LBS. I've learned to throw an extra pair of tires in the suitcase when I travel...


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

MB1 said:


> We like our Rivendells just fine but we LOVE our Waterfords.
> 
> This time of year the wait should be 6 to 8 weeks depending how much custom stuff you want.


Yeah, I know. If I do cancel, Waterford is probably my first choice. I once had a Waterford, but it was always too small for me so I sold it (this is years ago). The only problem (and I am not sure how much of a problem it is really) is that there is no longer a dealer in Vancouver. I have also considered Mariposa, but it looks like they are no longer building frames. Other candidates include Tournesol (out of Seattle: a year's wait) or locally, DeKerf but he doesn't use lugs as far as I am aware (and I do want a lugged bike).

Sigh... but, there are worse problems to have.


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

oarsman said:


> I am probably looking at something towards a year or so anyway to get a nice, lugged, traditional frame from another builder.


In addition to the VO suggestion I'll add Dave Kirk. He makes a heck of a frame and at last report had a relatively good turnaround time.

I use Rivendell as idea fodder, just like I use REI. One is flaky, the other is overpriced, but each can give me ideas that I can then make reality elsewhere.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*no way*



oarsman said:


> I have to admit that I am getting a little dis-illusioned with them. I have an Altantis which I really like and have taken all over the place. But, I can find similar (or the same) parts and accessories for less money elsewhere. My big annoyance right now is that I ordered a custom Rivendell over two years ago (at the time of ordering they were adverstising a wait of 1 year to 18 months). I filled out all the forms, sent in a deposit etc, but had heard nothing. I emailed them a couple of times, finally getting a response last summer that the frame would be ready late 2007. I didn't hear from them until December when I got a call from Grant. He hadn't started designing the bike yet and asked me some questions about how I was going to use it and the like.
> 
> I have been brooding about it for weeks now and am seriously considering cancelling the order because I have no idea when I can expect the frame. I don't even know if the design has gone to the builder yet. I was prepared for some wait and expected some delay, but I was not prepared for that call saying the frame had not even been designed. Who knows how long the framebuilder and painter will take.


I don't care if Ernesto Colnago was going to hand build a C-50 whatever for me and have Michelangelo rise from dead to paint it, I would not wait that long for any bike. That's nuts.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

Fixed said:


> I don't care if Ernesto Colnago was going to hand build a C-50 whatever for me and have Michelangelo rise from dead to paint it, I would not wait that long for any bike. That's nuts.


At the time I ordered the frame, I was prepared to wait: I had (and have) a number of other bikes. Other builders have much longer waits, and I thought a year or 18 months was OK for something rather special. But now, to find out the process has barely started was disheartening to say the least.


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## JP (Feb 8, 2005)

Oarsman, if you know what you want, you can just order directly from Waterford. You can go through a shop or direct. I suspect going through a shop might be more appropriate if you were more of a beginner or didn't know what fit you needed. Since you have a few bikes that work for you, they ask for a few measurements off your current rides and then they work up a geometry for you. And the wait is only a few weeks or a few months at most. It's funny, but we both have the same size Atlantis, and I suspect the Waterford will be used as you intended to use the Rivendell.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

JP said:


> . It's funny, but we both have the same size Atlantis, and I suspect the Waterford will be used as you intended to use the Rivendell.


That would be my plan. The Rivendell was going to slot in between my racing bike (a DeKerf) and the Atlantis, both of which fit me very well for their respective purposes.


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## markie (Jan 4, 2005)

Fixed said:


> I don't care if Ernesto Colnago was going to hand build a C-50 whatever for me and have Michelangelo rise from dead to paint it, I would not wait that long for any bike. That's nuts.


If you are going with a popular builder you can expect to wait several years.

Vanilla (Sacha White) 5 years

Jeff Jones 6 years, stopped taking orders

Richard Scahs 6 years 

Wiegle 6+years.

A couple of years wait for a Rivbike is OK.

I have a quickbeam. I enjoy commuting on it. I would probably like it more if it did not weigh quite as much.


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## Geet (Sep 17, 2004)

oarsman said:


> Yeah, I know. If I do cancel, Waterford is probably my first choice. I once had a Waterford, but it was always too small for me so I sold it (this is years ago). The only problem (and I am not sure how much of a problem it is really) is that there is no longer a dealer in Vancouver. I have also considered Mariposa, but it looks like they are no longer building frames. Other candidates include Tournesol (out of Seattle: a year's wait) or locally, DeKerf but he doesn't use lugs as far as I am aware (and I do want a lugged bike).
> 
> Sigh... but, there are worse problems to have.



I am not sure if it would be any help in dealing with Waterford, but Mighty Riders on Broadway just west of Main St. sells the Gunnar line of bikes.


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

Geet said:


> I am not sure if it would be any help in dealing with Waterford, but Mighty Riders on Broadway just west of Main St. sells the Gunnar line of bikes.


And Mighty Riders is my favourite bike shop in the city. I may have a chat with Ed.


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*Vanilla*



markie said:


> If you are going with a popular builder you can expect to wait several years.
> 
> Vanilla (Sacha White) 5 years


Sacha would not even respond to my emails when I was wanting a bike. Too busy even for responses, I suppose.

With other custom makers not taking that long, I just don't get it. I guess I'm just too impatient. In the time it takes for those bikes, I think I could learn how to build it and just do it myself!


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

MB1 said:


> We like our Rivendells just fine but we LOVE our Waterfords.
> 
> This time of year the wait should be 6 to 8 weeks depending how much custom stuff you want.


Well, heard from Rivendell today. The design has gone to the builder, delivery of finished frame expected in June. So I am going to stick with the Riv.

Now... must decide on colour: thinking a dark, smoky metallic blue (would look rather good with my grey Berthoud bags, I should think).


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

oarsman said:


> Well, heard from Rivendell today. The design has gone to the builder, delivery of finished frame expected in June. So I am going to stick with the Riv.
> 
> Now... must decide on colour: thinking a dark, smoky metallic blue (would look rather good with my grey Berthoud bags, I should think).


I wonder if they read these boards... I mean, the day after you gripe about your frame not even being designed, you find out the design is done and off to the builder... 

Someday, I'm getting a custom fillet-brazed frame painted PMS 5787 (c7m0y31k13) with red pin striping- I've had a color chip for like 4 years and every time I look at it, it makes me think "perfect color for a bike."

Good luck!


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## oarsman (Nov 6, 2005)

buck-50 said:


> I wonder if they read these boards... I mean, the day after you gripe about your frame not even being designed, you find out the design is done and off to the builder...


Same thought crossed my mind! But, to be fair, I emailed them yesterday (prodded by this thread, I have to say).


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## Thommy (Sep 23, 2003)

What happened to all the racks and other old (but cool) stuff that Riv used to post on their site? I remember looking for a bag of some sort and there would be about twenty different choices. Stems, deraillers etc. Have they really streamlined their parts offerings that much?


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## commutenow (Sep 26, 2004)

I have a Bleriot and for me it fits the bill for commuting and for trails. I can pretty much ride it anywhere I go other than a mountain bike trail and If I had better balance who knows. The bleriot is my everything bike its just not my fastest bike. I like Rivendell and will support them when I can.


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## JP (Feb 8, 2005)

Thommy said:


> What happened to all the racks and other old (but cool) stuff that Riv used to post on their site? I remember looking for a bag of some sort and there would be about twenty different choices. Stems, deraillers etc. Have they really streamlined their parts offerings that much?


I don't know what they had in the past, but they still have a bunch of cool racks. I just purchased a Nitto mini rack and a "Mark's rack." They came in a couple of days and are beautiful. On the "Mark's rack" even the clamps are very nicely done; way beyond what I expected. I also like supporting these guys, and I feel they earn my money well for the things I get from them. I don't spend a ton with them, but I've been happy with everything so far.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2008)

oarsman said:


> I think you are no doubt right. The question plaguing me is if I cancel my order now (and get my deposit back, which I expect I could), I am probably looking at something towards a year or so anyway to get a nice, lugged, traditional frame from another builder.


There is a fellow named 14Max ( i think) who habits the Serotta forum.

He just posted pics of his brand new Curtlo custom lugged steel frame and fork.

http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38404

Doug Curtiss is in Winthrop, just outside of Wenatchee, WA. I hade a CX bike made by him a few years ago, frame and custom fork for $975.

I think my wait was about 4 months.

Just food for thought.


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## Thommy (Sep 23, 2003)

*Seems like*

they had much more variety posted before (I'm going back at least six months ago).


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tarwheel2 said:


> The absurd thing is that the Bleriot is actually a very good value and well designed in almost every respect except for the wheels. If you actually tried to tour on a Bleriot, however, you would need to carry a bunch of spare tubes. And if you ruined a tire, I guess you would be out of luck since there apparently no sources for foldable 650b tires.
> 
> However, is it true that you can run 650a wheels/tires on that frame? If so, that might make it more practical, as 650a supposedly is more common. Alternatively, could you run 26" wheels/tires on a Bleriot?


650A rims are very close in diameter to 650B (only 6mm bigger), so if you have the tires to put on 'em, I'm sure you could do it. Don't think 650A is all that common though, at least not in the US in a performance-oriented tire.

26" would be harder. The brake reach on the Bleriot is already very long (65mm), and going to a considerably smaller wheel (the 26") would increase it out to 77.5mm, if my math is correct. The only brake I know of with that kind of reach is the Dia Compe 750 centerpull, and even that just barely (78mm max reach). No canti bosses on the Bleriot, not positive it'd help even if it had 'em?

You'd also end up with a lower bottom bracket, maybe too low. Long cranks and/or skinny-ish tires might be a no-go. Some of the Bleriot's flexibility to fit different tire profiles might be lost.


.


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## JeffS (Oct 3, 2006)

Every now and then I get stupid and consider a Riv. - then I wake up and realize that I could get a Waterford for the same price.

I too tried to contact Sacha about eight months or so (maybe more) now. He got back to me after about three months saying that he's now closed the waiting list. My initial reaction was to jump on a plane to the nahmbs, but I drug my feet too long and didn't make it - maybe next year.

I'm not a patient person, so the whole concept of a waiting list just freezes me into indecision. I saw the Vanilla list grow from 1.5 to 3 to 5 years, then close... while I lamented the long wait-time. oops

--------

Btw, has the custom riv arrived yet?


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## kayakguy (Feb 2, 2006)

I love my Rambouillet. It has prompted feelings in me about a inanimate object that are probably unhealthy. I am currently looking at a A.Homer Hilsen for my wife, but I must admit that the 650B size scares me.

If I were going to by another bike right now it would probably be the Atlantis, with custom paint as I dislike their color.

Let me just throw out there that I was at the shop I bought my bike at on Saturday and they have Rivs in stock. Including some Rambouillets, just FYI. They are Mtn. Sports in Bristol, VA. 276-466-8988. Ask for Steve and tell him Bryan sent ya. I am no way affiliated with this shop, I have merely drank the Rivendell kool-aid they were serving.


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