# 400 grams...enough to notice?



## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm an improving recreational rider, like to do 20-50 mile rides in rolling hills...some of them moderately steep. My bike advertises at ~18 lbs., however they measured it, and I weigh 145 lbs. If I dropped 400 grams in a different wheelset, will that be easily noticeable in climbing? Or slightly/hardly? Just trying to keep expectations real and figure out if I should spend the bucks and have even more fun, or just keep plugging away on my Kys. Equipes.....


Thanks for any thoughts~


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## Andreas_Illesch (Jul 9, 2002)

Erion929 said:


> If I dropped 400 grams in a different wheelset, will that be noticeable in climbing?


Yes, absolutely.
In a positve way if the new wheels are stiff enough, in a bad way if too much stiffness gets sacrificed for the lesser weight.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

You'll FEEL a difference.. but you wont really be faster, or climb significantly easier. 

The wheels you have now are one of the least aerodynamic sets on the market. 400 grams coupled with a more aero wheel.. You'll get an advantage, but its not going to be huge either way. Its a good opportunity to ditch mavics proprietary parts and hassles though.


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## kfurrow (May 1, 2004)

Aero / lightweight wheels save you, at most, a few seconds / mile, and that's at race speeds.

Different wheels will certainly feel and sound different... but don't expect the speedometer to be reading anything different.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

TomH said:


> You'll FEEL a difference.. but you wont really be faster, or climb significantly easier.


Last year I dropped just over 400g with a new wheel and tire setup. I could absolutely feel it when accelerating up to speed. I keep average speed and route time data and have for decades and did *not* notice any speed improvement at all. Even later when I went from 24mm deep rims to 30mm deep rims my times and averages were the same.

I guess there is two things happening here - lighter wheels spin up with less effort but heavier wheels keep rolling better (isn't this all to do with Newton's laws?) So maybe one cancels out the other one. I think there is more difference in my own day-to-day performance than differences between wheels.

Buy nice wheels yes but don't buy them for the wrong reasons.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm taking it that I should just ride more and train harder...I'm not young, but it's still early in the game for me, as a dedicated rider. Sounds like I haven't put the time in yet where lighter wheels will make a difference in my cycling abilities. As in golf, I guess I shouldn't just try to buy game...doesn't work that way.

Or maybe I should just buy a small motor :blush2:

Thanks for all the replies:thumbsup:


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Im very glad I upgraded my wheels. My old ones felt like crap. Im really just out to have fun, I want a wheelset thats fun to ride. Nothing wrong with that  

I bought/built a wheelset that I felt would ride best for me.. I think my old low spoke count/paired spoke rim was so heavily built that it just rode like a tank. Im not faster, but Im happier. Like Mike said, just dont buy for the wrong reasons, but if you dont like what you're on you dont have to just grind through it anyway. Especially for lighter riders, the K's are stiff wheels. Thats not necessarily bad, but you can get quite a different feel with more compliant wheels. 

Sometimes that new part afterglow, coupled with the sensation you get with a lighter wheelset motivates you to ride faster.


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## Erion929 (Jun 10, 2010)

I think what I'll do is get motivated to ride more and ride harder, with the goal of breaking spokes, crapping the hubs out, or wearing out the brake track.....so I can get new wheels . Maybe then I will "deserve" them and treat myself.

To be honest, I haven't been riding long enough to know what a "bad" wheel is anyway. The Equipes seem fine actually for what I am able to do. 

**


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> Last year I dropped just over 400g with a new wheel and tire setup. I could absolutely feel it when accelerating up to speed. I keep average speed and route time data and have for decades and did *not* notice any speed improvement at all. Even later when I went from 24mm deep rims to 30mm deep rims my times and averages were the same.
> 
> I guess there is two things happening here - lighter wheels spin up with less effort but heavier wheels keep rolling better (isn't this all to do with Newton's laws?) So maybe one cancels out the other one. I think there is more difference in my own day-to-day performance than differences between wheels.


Two things are happening here 

- An uninteresting difference in inertia and weight. Assuming the 400g is entirely in the tires where they hit the road and bike + rider total 75kg (165 pounds) you could accelerate from a standing stop a full 1% faster and be up to .5% faster up the steepest hills. You can't pace that consistently without a power meter and even then you aren't necessarily within the measurement margin of error.

- An interesting difference in psychology.



> Buy nice wheels yes but don't buy them for the wrong reasons.


Right. Carbon fiber looks modern and sexy. It's cheaper than a woman's socially acceptable baubles and much less expensive than a German sports sedan which is a contemporary way for guys to express their lust for cool mechanical toys.


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## brians647 (Mar 2, 2007)

Erion929 said:


> I think what I'll do is get motivated to ride more and ride harder, with the goal of breaking spokes, crapping the hubs out, or wearing out the brake track.....so I can get new wheels . Maybe then I will "deserve" them and treat myself.
> 
> To be honest, I haven't been riding long enough to know what a "bad" wheel is anyway. The Equipes seem fine actually for what I am able to do.
> 
> **


This is a great plan. Stick with it and reward yourself.
Have fun.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

Mike T. said:


> Last year I dropped just over 400g with a new wheel and tire setup. I could absolutely feel it when accelerating up to speed. I keep average speed and route time data and have for decades and did *not* notice any speed improvement at all. Even later when I went from 24mm deep rims to 30mm deep rims my times and averages were the same.
> 
> I guess there is two things happening here - lighter wheels spin up with less effort but heavier wheels keep rolling better (isn't this all to do with Newton's laws?) So maybe one cancels out the other one. I think there is more difference in my own day-to-day performance than differences between wheels.
> 
> Buy nice wheels yes but don't buy them for the wrong reasons.


Do you track watts? It would be nice to know if your effort has changed.


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## brians647 (Mar 2, 2007)

mimason said:


> Do you track watts? It would be nice to know if your effort has changed.


Take this with a grain of salt, as I've never measured, am not a math whiz, and am a gram-counting skeptic, but...
Unless it was significantly more aero and/or a VERY stop and go race course, there should be no measurable difference (remember that most power meters are within +/- 2%).


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

I have two sets of wheels that are about 400 grams apart. (1400ish and 1800ish)

I don't notice any difference that I'd attribute to weight.

I do notices two differences because the ligher ones are are stiffer and just plain better wheels.

-I'm a powerful sprinter (not to be confused with a fast one) and when I lean the bike to really dig in I notice a big difference. The heavier lower budget wheels feel squishy and the lighter/stiffer ones aren't phased at all.

-Handling. The better quality wheels are more responsive. Some might say more twitchy so not necessarly a positive but it is for me. Actually now that I think of it the faster handling may have something to do with weight but I've been attributing it to stiffness.

I guess in summary I'm trying to say it makes sense to get 'better wheels' and if they are ligher that's great but dropping weight just for the sake of dropping weight won't do much for you.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

mimason said:


> Do you track watts? It would be nice to know if your effort has changed.


That's way too exotic and expensive for me so the answer is no. I'm well aware that my physical condition, and many other factors, can have an effect. All I can offer is opinion based on my finest anecdotal evidence.


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Two things are happening here
> 
> - An uninteresting difference in inertia and weight. Assuming the 400g is entirely in the tires where they hit the road and bike + rider total 75kg (165 pounds) you could accelerate from a standing stop a full 1% faster and be up to .5% faster up the steepest hills. You can't pace that consistently without a power meter and even then you aren't necessarily within the measurement margin of error.


Would you please provide the calculation for this?


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Erion929 said:


> I think what I'll do is get motivated to ride more and ride harder, with the goal of breaking spokes, crapping the hubs out, or wearing out the brake track.....so I can get new wheels . Maybe then I will "deserve" them and treat myself.
> 
> To be honest, I haven't been riding long enough to know what a "bad" wheel is anyway. The Equipes seem fine actually for what I am able to do.
> 
> **


This is a good idea and it will save you money. All the good advice you have here would be best left for when you decide to purchase.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

my opin. if the weight drop is at the rim, then you'll notice it more than if it is an overall wheelset weight drop. to further add to the gain in performance, even if just a figment, go to sub 200gram tires and 50 gram tubes. just try not to notice how thin conti supersonic tubes are.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Calculation*



icsloppl said:


> Would you please provide the calculation for this?


You can go to analyticcycling.com to calculate the acceleration case, but the climbing case you can do instantly with a pocket calculator (or in your head if you are decent at keeping track of the decimal point).

Bike + rider = 185 lb. = 84 kg. 400 gm/84 kg = 0.48% more weight = 0.48% faster climbing if you lose that weight.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> You can go to analyticcycling.com to calculate the acceleration case, but the climbing case you can do instantly with a pocket calculator (or in your head if you are decent at keeping track of the decimal point).
> 
> Bike + rider = 185 lb. = 84 kg. 400 gm/84 kg = 0.48% more weight = 0.48% faster climbing if you lose that weight.


Yeah but that's an upper bound which you'd only hit when carrying your bike up a ladder (direction of travel directly opposite gravity).

In the real world it'll be less, often below the limits of precision on analyticcycling.com.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> Yeah but that's an upper bound which you'd only hit when carrying your bike up a ladder (direction of travel directly opposite gravity).
> 
> In the real world it'll be less, often below the limits of precision on analyticcycling.com.


no, for steep grades (10%) it is pretty close as 90% of the force on the rider is from gravity and weight - at least normal people

for example running a 10% grade with 4 m/sec speed through anallyticcyling gives 93% of the force on the rider is from the hill - only 3% from wind drag

and while cutting weight will increase your speed slightly up hill, that is the point afterall, it isn't much and it is offset somewhat by a decrease in rolling friction

but you are correct, in the real world it will be less than the simple change in percentage of toal weight, but not by very much


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Say what?*



Drew Eckhardt said:


> Yeah but that's an upper bound which you'd only hit when carrying your bike up a ladder (direction of travel directly opposite gravity).
> 
> In the real world it'll be less, often below the limits of precision on analyticcycling.com.


You said: "you could accelerate from a standing stop a full 1% faster and be up to .5% faster up the steepest hills." 

icsloppl asked for the calculation for this, and I provided it. Now it seems like you're questioning my number, which is the same as your number. I'm confused.


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## sneakyracer (Dec 1, 2007)

Hi, think of the wheel / tire combo as a system. The tires make a significant difference in rolling resistance and feel. So consider not only lighter and stiffer wheels with quality hubs but also lighter, faster rolling tires. I really like the Michellin Pro Race 3's and the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX's. I have the Michellins on my wet weather / climbing wheels and the Ultremo's on my fair weather / flat route aero wheels. The Michellins have a slightly softer ride and are grippier in wet conditions. Both are fast rolling. So far they have proven puncture resistant and tough (gone through nasty gravel plenty of times).

Also, stiff cranks and smooth BB bearings help when climbing. The less power is wasted, the more efficient and hence, faster, one is up a hill. I think even the shoes make a difference!


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## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

If you ride up hills where at times you need to stand, or slow enough that you can tell your crank is moving in thrusts instead of spinning, you will enjoy the lighter wheel.

The reason being, that aside from being a simply lighter load to bring up the hill, each pedal stroke needs to accelerate the wheels enough to catch the next pedal stroke. This acceleration of the wheels is smoother and less tiresome if the rim+tire weight of the wheel is lighter.

BTW, you might be losing more than 400g. My stock wheels (Trek 2.1 2010 model) weighed 2220g. My current wheelset is 1632g. Coupled with a well-chosen tire, that's well over half a kilo.

All that said, this is a minor effect on your ability to climb hills or maintain speed. Strength, body weight, and cardio are by far the major factors to riding fast.

David


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Thinking it through*



dgeesaman said:


> If you ride up hills where at times you need to stand, or slow enough that you can tell your crank is moving in thrusts instead of spinning, you will enjoy the lighter wheel.
> 
> The reason being, that aside from being a simply lighter load to bring up the hill, each pedal stroke needs to accelerate the wheels enough to catch the next pedal stroke. This acceleration of the wheels is smoother and less tiresome if the rim+tire weight of the wheel is lighter.


OK, but with a heavier wheel, it slows down less during each pedal stroke, so you have less speed change to deal with. There is nothing about wheel weight that is different than any other weight when climbing a hill. The difference in acceeration from one wheel to the next is tiny, and if the total weight is the same, everything evens out.


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## dgeesaman (Jun 9, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> OK, but with a heavier wheel, it slows down less during each pedal stroke, so you have less speed change to deal with. There is nothing about wheel weight that is different than any other weight when climbing a hill. The difference in acceeration from one wheel to the next is tiny, and if the total weight is the same, everything evens out.


When I'm climbing a seriously steep / long hill, I'm not "rolling" up. There is no momentum. Pause your pedaling for half a stroke and you'll flop over sideways. You're trying to minimize the force your legs put into each pedal stroke and the light wheel helps here.

There is another value with having a light set of wheels: climbing gears. Put the climbing cogset on your light wheels and the corncob on your aero wheels.

David


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## Svooterz (Jul 29, 2006)

llrules00 said:


> to the OP: yes, you indeed will be faster. You will save energy on the hills, you will save energy on every acceleration whether its from a standstill or accelerating by increasing speed. you will also save energy as you ride (on a flat.)
> 
> Yes you guys say 1lb is a little and you won't "feel" it, but when measured, the lighter bike will be faster (assuming rider is the same). Can't mess with numbers...


I would second the point that 1lb is very little and I would go as far as saying that even when measured, it won't make much of a difference. I dropped 1 pound on a lighter wheelset two years ago and I barely noticed it. Increased stiffness was the greatest benefit of the better designed, lighter wheels. I also dropped 300 grams this year when I bought a new frameset. Didn't notice at all.

If you consider the physics involved, the lighter bike won't necesserily be faster. If you had two objects facing the same air drag (a reasonnable assumption if you take the same cyclist on similarly shaped bikes), the highest constant-speed pace one can attain on a flat course depends only on power, not on weight. Thus, on flats, the lighter bike/rider is not faster, not even theoretically.

Now courses aren't always flat, right? So let's look at what happens doing uphill. On hills, the energy required to climb would vary linearly with weight... If there was no aerodynamic drag. Assuming we climb slow enough to neglect air drag, then the difference will be at best proportionnal to the difference in weight... Which, in the case of me dropping a full 1kg off my bike/wheels combo in two years, makes a whopping 1,35% difference. That would be a saving of 3 minutes on 4 hours of in-your-face climbing.

Now, since most courses aren't alway uphill either, the difference in speed will fall somewhere in between... And most likely closer to the lower mark, since I've neglected air drag all along. In real world conditions, it just can't be neglected. 

In the end, is lighter going to make you faster? Maybe just a hair, in the right conditions (e.g. climbing), but the difference may not even be measurable because it might well fall within the uncertainty range of whatever tool/technique you use to measure it. 

Eating well, sleeping well and training intelligently will all yield more substantial benefits than saving weight


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## Svooterz (Jul 29, 2006)

dgeesaman said:


> When I'm climbing a seriously steep / long hill, I'm not "rolling" up. There is no momentum. Pause your pedaling for half a stroke and you'll flop over sideways. You're trying to minimize the force your legs put into each pedal stroke and the light wheel helps here.
> 
> There is another value with having a light set of wheels: climbing gears. Put the climbing cogset on your light wheels and the corncob on your aero wheels.
> 
> David


...Because, as everyone knows, climbing gears don't find on an aero wheelset, right???
If you try to screw a 11-28 or 12-27 cassette on anything else than a light wheel, it will explode.

Sarcasm aside, I don't see how the possibility of putting climbing gears is an advantage solely of light wheels. You can do that on any wheelset and the effects will be the same...


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