# The End of Carbon Era



## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I noticed that Seven has ceased to list the Diamas line of full carbon bikes. Anyone know what happened?


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## TopQuark (Aug 9, 2012)

I am not surprised. I'm sure the volume is not there to justify cost. Custom all-carbon bike manufacturing must be very costly. It is hard to compete with mass marketers who change materials, molds, and models every year. Customers gets what they want in a carbon through an Elium or 622SLX.


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## lawr (Sep 5, 2007)

*Diamas*



Dajianshan said:


> I noticed that Seven has ceased to list the Diamas line of full carbon bikes. Anyone know what happened?


Was at Ride Studio Cafe @ a year ago and tested a Diamas and a 622 SLX. They wanted me to ride the Diamas first and then the 622 , so I did. The difference was night and day. I called back and spoke to Rob Vandermark and told him how much I disliked the Diamas and how much I liked the 622, so I am not surprised if they have discontinued the Diamas. I hadn't been on a carbon bike for a long time, (more than 25,000 miles on my Lynskey 330) and I couldn't believe how dead it felt while the 622 felt stiff and alive, ready to spring forward.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I was thinking along the same lines as TopQuark. With the rapid changes in CF manufacturing and customer expectations for the material, it seems it would be much more labor intensive than it is worth while sacrificing some of what a little titanium in the mix could provide... except for the aero shapes of TT/Tri frames.


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## mcteague (Feb 7, 2005)

lawr said:


> Was at Ride Studio Cafe @ a year ago and tested a Diamas and a 622 SLX. They wanted me to ride the Diamas first and then the 622 , so I did. The difference was night and day. I called back and spoke to Rob Vandermark and told him how much I disliked the Diamas and how much I liked the 622, so I am not surprised if they have discontinued the Diamas. I hadn't been on a carbon bike for a long time, (more than 25,000 miles on my Lynskey 330) and I couldn't believe how dead it felt while the 622 felt stiff and alive, ready to spring forward.


I tested a Parlee Z5 before I got my 622 SLX. It just didn't feel right to me. Light and stiff but no road feel. Took a chance on the 622 as I could not test one. My 10 year old Axiom had been great so I asked for a lighter, stiffer, slightly more stable version could be made. Every nail's head was hit. My 622 SLX feels amazing. Stiff and comfortable but with really nice road feel.

Tim


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

I don't know, but I'm not surprised. Full carbon frame manufacturing is getting simultaneously crowded with affordable fabrication in Asia as well as technically challenging with hyper focus on weight. I read about how BMC had their most recent frame designed via a computer simulation of 35,000 different layup arrangements to find the optimal design.

Neither of these are areas where Seven is going to compete without radically altering their core mission. I think Seven is actually well positioned primarily as a Ti frame builder because the UCI weight limits mean that getting a crazy light frame becomes increasingly less important in real world application. I like to think this affords room for other considerations, such as durability and even aesthetics.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

It seems to me that we're seeing a change in the bike industry. Specialty bike makers like Seven, like Serotta are being forced into change, and we're seeing it in Carbon bikes most. The change consumer tastes and technology are moving too fast for smaller builders. The sole large specialty maker which seems to be staying put for now is Parlee with the majority of specialty builders it seems focusing on Steel and Titanium builds. It's also difficult for the custom builders to compete price wise on Carbon against Asian sourced builders.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

The monocoque designs of the OEMs are dominating the market. Few, if any, custom builders can compete with the OEMs advertising and engineering budgets despite building decent frames. I wouldn't be surprised if assembly costs are considerably higher as well.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Peter P. said:


> The monocoque designs of the OEMs are dominating the market. Few, if any, custom builders can compete with the OEMs advertising and engineering budgets despite building decent frames. I wouldn't be surprised if assembly costs are considerably higher as well.


Just got me a c-59. While I didn't need a fully customized bike I wanted something a little non-cookie-cutter. It's clear the monocoque guys are winning and that custom will just mean older guys riding titanium or steel, not much of a core market. It looks like the successor to Serotta has given up on carbon as well.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> It seems to me that we're seeing a change in the bike industry. Specialty bike makers like Seven, like Serotta are being forced into change, and we're seeing it in Carbon bikes most.


I think the area where Seven may face the most threat is in aerodynamics, if interest in this takes off. The minimum UCI weight has created a level playing field and a lot of frame designers are experimenting with shapes to carve out an aerodynamic advantage. The gains are small in every case but Seven's design (for good reasons, I'll say) is strongly oriented around the round tube.

The value proposition for Seven is probably to deliver on the bike that is a natural fit. This means not catering much to the race and performance crowd, but they are already strongly tilted to the century and fitness rider. Try to set up the frame with aggressive angles (just ask me, I know) and you need to convince them that you aren't making a mistake.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm also starting to wonder if some of those guys riding high end custom Titanium are migrating in some numbers to High end Parlee , or even Colnago c-59 or gasp, Pinarello. People should and do want comfort, but when the weight gap is significant enough.. well egos are sensitive things, and people don't like being handicapped when riding up steep hills, one or two pounds is one thing but Parlee is making some awfull light high end carbon bikes, which supposedly ride nicely.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> People should and do want comfort, but when the weight gap is significant enough.. well egos are sensitive things, and people don't like being handicapped when riding up steep hills, one or two pounds is one thing but Parlee is making some awfull light high end carbon bikes, which supposedly ride nicely.


My Axiom SLX weighs 16.2 lbs with pedals on it. I could shave another 300g if I was aggressive, but I hope somehow we can kill the myth that Titanium is heavy. Barring that, I want to see people first prove their body fat is in the low single digits before they get obsessive over the weight of their bike. I can wish...


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Duane Gran said:


> My Axiom SLX weighs 16.2 lbs with pedals on it. I could shave another 300g if I was aggressive, but I hope somehow we can kill the myth that Titanium is heavy. Barring that, I want to see people first prove their body fat is in the low single digits before they get obsessive over the weight of their bike. I can wish...


That's not typical. Axiom SLX frame ballparks @ 2.6 pounds according to Seven's site versus 1.65 pounds for a Parlee, and the SLX is not for most riders many of which are above the weight reccomendations. The typical Seven buyer is going for the Axiom SL or Axiom which come in at 3.1 or 3.3 pounds. This shouldn't matter for most riders and usage , and it's impressive you got the SLX come down at that weight, I'm assuming your components are more aggressive than mine. My C59 is around 16 pounds with Ultegra components and dura ace wheels.


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## Duane Gran (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's not typical. Axiom SLX frame ballparks @ 2.6 pounds according to Seven's site versus 1.65 pounds for a Parlee, and the SLX is not for most riders many of which are above the weight reccomendations. The typical Seven buyer is going for the Axiom SL or Axiom which come in at 3.1 or 3.3 pounds. This shouldn't matter for most riders and usage , and it's impressive you got the SLX come down at that weight, I'm assuming your components are more aggressive than mine. My C59 is around 16 pounds with Ultegra components and dura ace wheels.


Good point on the SLX not being the typical frame choice, but if one weighs enough to exceed the flyweight offerings then it isn't sensible to get all weight weenie about this stuff. The clydesdale who counts the grams is a puzzle to me. The durability of the Titanium bike is the great selling point of it.

As for my build, I have a component break out here:

Project: Axiom SLX (over thinking the bike thread)

If I were weight obsessed I would have done SRAM Red, carbon seat post and some minimalist pedals but I think I struck a good balance between rigidity and light weight. I realize though that I was able to do this because I weigh under 65kg (145lbs), so my light weight titanium experience isn't available for most.


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## gtran1502 (Aug 20, 2008)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's not typical. Axiom SLX frame ballparks @ 2.6 pounds according to Seven's site versus 1.65 pounds for a Parlee, and the SLX is not for most riders many of which are above the weight reccomendations. The typical Seven buyer is going for the Axiom SL or Axiom which come in at 3.1 or 3.3 pounds. This shouldn't matter for most riders and usage , and it's impressive you got the SLX come down at that weight, I'm assuming your components are more aggressive than mine. My C59 is around 16 pounds with Ultegra components and dura ace wheels.


My SL weighs 15.14 lbs without bar tape and bottle cages. This isn't typical? Never considered myself a weight weenie. Also don't have super fancy stuff, just the standard red boxed groupset.


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