# Canyon Endurace AL7 Disc vs Grail AL 7 vs ????



## nyc (Nov 20, 2018)

I have a big spreadsheet going for a bike purchase next year. The qualifications to be in the equation

*- sub 19lbs in my size 2xs/xs according to Canyon and assuming 1670g disc wheelset and 215g tires for fairness

- sub $2k new

- can take at least the Conti 4 season 32

- disc (need for tire clearance)

- decent groupset with ideal being 50/34 with at least 34 cog 11 speed*


*Grail - 
*9.4kg in medium (heavy 460g tires), 40mm tires, shimano 105 50/34 w/ 11-34 for$1799

https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/grail/2019/grail-al-7-0


*Endurance AL7 Disc-
*9kg, 33mm max, shimano 105 52/36 11sp for $1700ish (men's not in stock till Dec)

https://www.canyon.com/en/road/endurace/2019/endurace-al-disc-7-0.html


On paper the Grail is closer to what I want from specs but I spend most of my time on the road and plan to do a Century or two next year. I like the idea of having a set of big tires with some tread for trails dirt but it is likely to not be a big amount of my time. 
*
1) Should I be worried the gravel geometry not doing as well on the road vs the endurance geo? *

*2) Is there anything else I should consider given my requirements above?
*

Looked but no dice:
- Specialized Diverge no do to Specialized jerkiness
- Cannon Synapse 105 too heavy start weight compared to above 21.34lbs
- Orbea Terra h40 - ugly colors paint scheme
- Trek Checkpoint ALR 4 heavy
- Giant Defy Advanced 3 - heavy wheelset needs replace asap 2110g
- trek Domane ALR 4 - too heavy
- a bunch of CX race bikes - geometry
- Focus Paralane 105 - heavy 10.2kg for 54
- Focus Cayo Disc - 30mm max
- Scott Addict - 30mm
- Cannon CAAD12 disc - 30mm
- Trek Emonda Disc - 28mm

There are some last minute 2018 leftovers I am looking at which would normally be too expense

Cannondale Carbon Disc 105 18.26lbs


*3) Should I just hang on to my cheap 25lbs+ Endurance/hybrid with v brakes for the occasional offroad since it can take 40mm and get a more focused roadbike? (2013 Diamondback Interval)*


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

You don’t say what kind of terrain (“gravel” comes in many forms). 

If you just want a bike you can ride on rough roads with the occasional foray down a fire road/gravel path etc, I’d go with the Endurace. 

It will be a lot more fun to ride when you aren’t off road, and will be more than adequate for the occasional off-road adventure with the 32mm tires.


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

Why not the carbon Endurace 7.0 – $1,999 and 8.1kg (last year’s model)???

Best bike I ever bought. 

The Endurace ace will run 33s so unless you are looking for a serious and dedicated gravel bike, I think the Endurace is hard to beat. 

Another option is is the new Émonda ALR disc, which is fairly light and in your price range and will run 30s or 32s I think.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

nyc said:


> I have a big spreadsheet going for a bike purchase next year. The qualifications to be in the equation
> 
> *- sub 19lbs in my size 2xs/xs according to Canyon and assuming 1670g disc wheelset and 215g tires for fairness
> 
> ...


The Grail (compared vs the has a longer wheel base and chainstay which is typical of a gravel bike geometry, it will tend to be more stable. It also has a more aggressive riding position comparing the same sizes between the two bikes which is not typical of an endurance road bike. The more stable won't cause any problems using it as an endurance bike, but the aggressive position might depending on your flexibility and the max ride distance you think you will do. Typical gravel bikes are not quite as aggressive as this Canyon you are looking at.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

What kind of road riding do you do? Long solo stuff or fast group rides? If the latter get the Endurance if the former maybe the grail if you don't mind a more sofa like ride. Both are good bikes and neither will disappoint you.


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## nyc (Nov 20, 2018)

Srode said:


> The Grail (compared vs the has a longer wheel base and chainstay which is typical of a gravel bike geometry, it will tend to be more stable. It also has a more aggressive riding position comparing the same sizes between the two bikes which is not typical of an endurance road bike. The more stable won't cause any problems using it as an endurance bike, but the aggressive position might depending on your flexibility and the max ride distance you think you will do. Typical gravel bikes are not quite as aggressive as this Canyon you are looking at.


Super helpful as my primary concern was geo but I dont know much about how they differ except for the difference between endurance and race.



kiwisimon said:


> What kind of road riding do you do? Long solo stuff or fast group rides? If the latter get the Endurance if the former maybe the grail if you don't mind a more sofa like ride. Both are good bikes and neither will disappoint you.



I started cycling more seriously late in life so its mostly fun road rides with a few long distance rides (50miles+) throughout the year.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

nyc said:


> Super helpful as my primary concern was geo but I dont know much about how they differ except for the difference between endurance and race.


Look at the Geometry chart for the two bikes and you will see 2 numbers, reach and stack. Stack gives you how high your bars will be relative to one another on the two bikes with the same stem and spacers. Reach gives you how far you will need to reach to get to the bars relative ton one another with the same stem, spacers and bars. The Stack and reach is substantially different between those 2 bikes in my opinion.


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## nyc (Nov 20, 2018)

fronesis said:


> Why not the carbon Endurace 7.0 – $1,999 and 8.1kg (last year’s model)???
> 
> It is on my list but they dont have my size and I am guessing they arent making more. Also it doesnt come with a 50/34 so at $2k + shipping/fees and $150 for a new 105 CR it goes over. 2019 comes with the right CR but is 300g heavier and is another $200.
> 
> Part of me wants to stick to aluminum in case I wreck I am not out an entire bike frame.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

From the Geometry charts (I used size Medium for comparison)...

It's not really a surprise that the Grail has a longer top tube and chainstay and thus a longer wheelbase, but it is a bit of a surprise that the stack is nearly a full centimeter lower. Depending on how flexible you are and how much you can tolerate a lower front end, this might not be ideal, especially off road. You can always add an extra spacer to compensate, as long as the fit is not too extreme.










I can't speak to the Grail, as I've never ridden one. 

I own an Endurace (CF SLX), and find the geometry ideal for general sport riding, fondos/sportives, and a little tame off road use. I ride it with 28mm Conti GP 4000 SII on road, and have a set of wheels with 32mm gravel tires (tubeless) for riding gravel fire roads, rail trails, etc.... Mine is set up with a standard 11-32 cassette and 50/34 road setup (Ultegra Di2), and it's just really a great all around bike.

I do have a dedicated gravel bike with wider (up to 47mm) tires for rougher terrain. I pull it out if I'm going to ride known rougher terrain, especially where steep decents on washboard/pothole covered roads are found. I find the longer geometry of this bike makes the handling feel a little sluggish (unresponsive?) for general road riding.

As always, YMMV...


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## fronesis (Jan 22, 2014)

nyc said:


> fronesis said:
> 
> 
> > Why not the carbon Endurace 7.0 – $1,999 and 8.1kg (last year’s model)???
> ...


1. I bet you are right that they aren't making more. 

2. I wouldn't worry about 52/36, especially if the bike (like that Canyon) has a medium cage RD with a big cassette (11–32). I have always ridden 50/34 and was wary of the 52/36, but I ended up liking it. The lowest gear was still super low, and I kind of liked the fact that with the 36 small chainring I was able to just stay in the small a lot more.

3. I agree, the 2019 is a bummer: the wheelset isn't nearly as good, and it's 10% more expensive. But the R7020 groupset IS a nice upgrade. The 5800 components on last year's bike are lovely, but those RS505 hydro shifters are hideous and not-so-ergonomic. 

A key note about the Canyon grail geometry: Canyon has decided to spec their gravel bikes with VERY SHORT stems. So the FRAME stack and reach numbers appear relatively "aggressive" for a gravel bike, but the bike AS CONFIGURED is not all that aggressive. Canyon also thinks that the short stem is a good setup for gravel riding. 

Personally I like this move, since it means you can buy a Grail and by changing the stem to something longer, get yourself more road-like geometry, or by keeping the super short stem, keep the gravel geo. 

On a lot of gravel bikes there is NO way to set up the bike with my road fit, but with the Grail I have options. 

I'm out of the market for the Grail now, just bought a Whipshot Ti CX bike (good wheels, full SRAM Force 1 groupset, full carbon fork, and a Ti frame – all for under $2k).


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## nyc (Nov 20, 2018)

Finx said:


> From the Geometry charts (I used size Medium for comparison)...
> 
> It's not really a surprise that the Grail has a longer top tube and chainstay and thus a longer wheelbase, but it is a bit of a surprise that the stack is nearly a full centimeter lower. Depending on how flexible you are and how much you can tolerate a lower front end, this might not be ideal, especially off road. You can always add an extra spacer to compensate, as long as the fit is not too extreme.
> 
> ...





fronesis said:


> 1. I bet you are right that they aren't making more.
> 
> 2. I wouldn't worry about 52/36, especially if the bike (like that Canyon) has a medium cage RD with a big cassette (11–32). I have always ridden 50/34 and was wary of the 52/36, but I ended up liking it. The lowest gear was still super low, and I kind of liked the fact that with the 36 small chainring I was able to just stay in the small a lot more.
> 
> ...



Would it be fair to say that while the Grail is not setup for road use with some spacers and a stem it would make a good setup OR is the inherent geo going to be sluggish/soft vs the Endurace which can do anything well until you need tires north of 33mm?

I apologize for my lack of knowledge on stack etc.

I am 5'6 155lbs and fairly fit but in my late 30s so prefer a more relaxed position but no physical issues tucking.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

nyc said:


> Would it be fair to say that while the Grail is not setup for road use with some spacers and a stem it would make a good setup OR is the inherent geo going to be sluggish/soft vs the Endurace which can do anything well until you need tires north of 33mm?
> 
> I apologize for my lack of knowledge on stack etc.


Yep you have it pretty well sussed out. If you like just riding along and want the versatility of gravel riding get the Grail. But know that the Endurance generally will be faster for road riding with a less tiring position. Your still young and fit I imagine you can tough out the gravel rides on the endurance and appreciate the extra speed on the road. Endurance gets my vote. 

no need to apologize, it's all a bit new.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

nyc said:


> Would it be fair to say that while the Grail is not setup for road use with some spacers and a stem it would make a good setup OR is the inherent geo going to be sluggish/soft vs the Endurace which can do anything well until you need tires north of 33mm?
> 
> I apologize for my lack of knowledge on stack etc.
> 
> I am 5'6 155lbs and fairly fit but in my late 30s so prefer a more relaxed position but no physical issues tucking.


I agree with KiwiSimon. Without knowing much about the terrain you are going to be riding on, my feeling is that the Endurace is probably the best option for you. It's quite capable and less specialized than the Grail, and it sounds like the geometry of the Endurace fits your needs.

Edit to add: It's hard for anyone here to know whether you would prefer the longer Grail or the 'tighter' Endurace. It's a very subjective thing. It's one of the problems with buying Canyon, is you can't test ride them, and once you put the bike together and ride it, your stuck with it (unless you want to sell it at a significant loss).


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Finx said:


> I agree with KiwiSimon. Without knowing much about the terrain you are going to be riding on, my feeling is that the Endurace is probably the best option for you. It's quite capable and less specialized than the Grail, and it sounds like the geometry of the Endurace fits your needs.
> 
> Edit to add: It's hard for anyone here to know whether you would prefer the longer Grail or the 'tighter' Endurace. It's a very subjective thing. It's one of the problems with buying Canyon, is you can't test ride them, and once you put the bike together and ride it, your stuck with it (unless you want to sell it at a significant loss).


Ditto here. You could go find bikes with similar geometry to test ride though to see how the fit and responsiveness compare. If you are thinking about going off road, the Grail gives more flexibility, particularly in soft dirt/muddy conditions where you don't want to have tires that just barely fit or you are could be stopping to scrape mud off regularly. If you want to be able to ride off road, there are plenty of gravel bikes on the market with less aggressive riding positions than the Grail, might want to look at more options. A gravel oriented bike with road tires isn't going to give up much vs a road oriented bike when riding on the road in my experience.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Looking at the stack and reach of those bikes, the Grail looks very aggressive, especially the reach - more like a cx bike. IMHO, this would be a torture device on long rides.

I would go with the Endurance. Keep in mind that if it is specced for 32mm tires, you could probably go a bit higher without problems.

Or.....have you looked at the GT Grade? That is a well rated gravel bike and has a more relaxed geometry. It is specced for 35mm tires and light enough to be used as a road bike.


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## nyc (Nov 20, 2018)

Lombard said:


> Looking at the stack and reach of those bikes, the Grail looks very aggressive, especially the reach - more like a cx bike. IMHO, this would be a torture device on long rides.
> 
> I would go with the Endurance. Keep in mind that if it is specced for 32mm tires, you could probably go a bit higher without problems.
> 
> Or.....have you looked at the GT Grade? That is a well rated gravel bike and has a more relaxed geometry. It is specced for 35mm tires and light enough to be used as a road bike.


Looks interesting but seems like its $1900 for Tiagra and on the heavy side for only 2mm more tire than Endurance.

Endurance looks tough to beat for mostly road now that everyone has explained the geo differences.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

Folks following this thread might find this article discussing how geometry affects how a bike handles pretty interesting...

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/the-geometry-of-bike-handling-its-all-about-the-steering/


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Finx said:


> Folks following this thread might find this article discussing how geometry affects how a bike handles pretty interesting...
> 
> https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/the-geometry-of-bike-handling-its-all-about-the-steering/


Good article.


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