# 4x10 min as opposed to 2x20



## kreuzberg (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi guys,
Regarding SST, it was my understanding that the intervals have to be at least 20 min to gain the most benefit. Doing more sets of 10 minutes intervals isn't as good, right? Like doing 4x10 min, as opposed to 2x20? Has anyone done 10 min intervals at SST and found that they work well?


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## krishna (Jan 20, 2002)

Don't have an answer but ironically was wondering the same thing. Last night was reading through a training guide I had got a number of years ago. It does not place a value on the length of interval -- except for a differentiation between the very short (1-3 minutes) and everything else.

That is at odds with the advice I've seen on this board which has been: 2X20 are best for raising overall speed. Everything under is for dealing with pack accelerations, jumps etc.

- K


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

10 minutes are fine. No such thing as a 10 minute accelleration, it is an aerobic effort.


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## MightySchmoePong (Jul 22, 2006)

Spunout said:


> 10 minutes are fine. No such thing as a 10 minute accelleration, it is an aerobic effort.


The benefit as compared to a 2x20 would also probably depend on the rest time between intervals. Keep it short (1-2 minutes) and it's probably close to as good. 

Why not the longer intervals though?


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

If we're talking SST, you need at least some 30min at a time. But we're not talking about that.

What are your goals? Honestly, you should be doing the 20min efforts. Repeated short intervals at 10min are closer to a VO2max effort with a big anaerobic component. In which case, listen to MSP and keep the rest to under a minute.

imho, 10min is a no-man's-land for interval duration.


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## Dream Plus (Feb 4, 2004)

I can think of times when I would use 10 minute intervals rather than a longer interval. 

You might be trying to incorporate intervals above FTP and start out with 10 minutes, with the intention of extending those intervals at the same output, or shortening the Rest Interval. 

There are probably other reasons involving specific training for an event. 

Or maybe just trying to accumulate time @ SST training, which could be done 10 minutes at a time when paired with shorter Rest Interval.

Or you could stick to a steady diet of SST or L3/L4 training and see how it goes.




iliveonnitro said:


> If we're talking SST, you need at least some 30min at a time. But we're not talking about that.
> 
> What are your goals? Honestly, you should be doing the 20min efforts. Repeated short intervals at 10min are closer to a VO2max effort with a big anaerobic component. In which case, listen to MSP and keep the rest to under a minute.
> 
> imho, 10min is a no-man's-land for interval duration.


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## kreuzberg (Feb 1, 2009)

iliveonnitro said:


> If we're talking SST, you need at least some 30min at a time. But we're not talking about that.
> 
> What are your goals? Honestly, you should be doing the 20min efforts. Repeated short intervals at 10min are closer to a VO2max effort with a big anaerobic component. In which case, listen to MSP and keep the rest to under a minute.
> 
> imho, 10min is a no-man's-land for interval duration.


I wasn't going to do the 10 min intervals, I happen to agree with you. I know someone that does 4x10s and I was wondering what everyone thought about them.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

kreuzberg said:


> I wasn't going to do the 10 min intervals, I happen to agree with you. I know someone that does 4x10s and I was wondering what everyone thought about them.


5 minute intervals are freaking hard enough. I suppose they're possible in theory, but hard to imagine anyone can sustain a real interval for that long and not just turn it into a moderate steady state.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Interval duration*



spade2you said:


> 5 minute intervals are freaking hard enough. I suppose they're possible in theory, but hard to imagine anyone can sustain a real interval for that long and not just turn it into a moderate steady state.


The essential definition of an interval is going as hard as you can go for the duration specified. Thus, you cannot put out as much power/go as fast in 10 or 20 minute intervals as you can in 1 or 5 minute intervals. That does NOT mean that 10 or 20 minutes at full throttle is not an interval. Your definition is confused.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

an interval does not have to require going as hard as you can for the duration specified (but simply going at some specified rate for the time specified). By definition, SST intervals are not going as hard as you can (the OP's question was about sweet spot training).

I think the conventional wisdom re SST would be to do them for longer than 10 minutes at a time to make your body more efficient at clearing lactate. 

I'd be interested to see actual evidence that SST increased functional threshold power (most of the evidence seems to be primarily anecdotal). The idea appears discredited in the running literature (eg Peter Snell's research). I was interested to hear Bradley Wiggins trained 8-10 hours/week for his Olympic pursuit victory and did very little sub-threshold training at all


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## Shaggybx (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm think SST is a waste of time.I'd rather ride at a litte higher intensity.I'm talking for a20 min interval.
To me it's no mans land,I did a lot of SST last year and it didn't seem to help me much.I've made more progress riding at or above my LT.What might work for me, might not work for you.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

Shaggybx said:


> I'm think SST is a waste of time.I'd rather ride at a litte higher intensity.I'm talking for a20 min interval.
> To me it's no mans land,I did a lot of SST last year and it didn't seem to help me much.I've made more progress riding at or above my LT.What might work for me, might not work for you.


What is your FTP? At what intensity were you doing these claimed SST rides?


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## shayneusmc (Jul 23, 2009)

Guys... I'm new to the cycling lingo and this is all very interesting! What does SST, LT, and FTP all stand for and mean? I only have 500 base miles in riding so when is it safe for me to start interval training?


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## Shaggybx (Feb 2, 2008)

iliveonnitro said:


> What is your FTP? At what intensity were you doing these claimed SST rides?


300 watts now.
Last year I was 290,I would do my SST from 255 to 275 watts.
What's up with the claimed comment?
I just gave my opinion,isn't this a forum.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

shayneusmc said:


> Guys... I'm new to the cycling lingo and this is all very interesting! What does SST, LT, and FTP all stand for and mean? I only have 500 base miles in riding so when is it safe for me to start interval training?


SST is "Sweet Spot Training." Read about it here.

LT is "Lactate Threshold." This is an ambiguous definition that changes depending on the person with whom you speak. Often noted as 1 or 4mmol/L increase in blood lactate.

FTP is "Functional Threshold Power." This is not ambiguous and is defined as the best average power you can produce for 60 minutes -- think: 60min time trial.

You should read everything on this page and think about buying the book Training and Racing with a Powermeter by Coggan/Allen.


shaggy - huh?


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## function (Jun 20, 2008)

Shaggybx said:


> I'm think SST is a waste of time.I'd rather ride at a litte higher intensity.I'm talking for a20 min interval.
> To me it's no mans land,I did a lot of SST last year and it didn't seem to help me much.I've made more progress riding at or above my LT.What might work for me, might not work for you.


Perhaps that's the thing, you were doing SST as intervals, i usually do SST for an entire ride, so i'd do about 90% of FTP and then have harder parts thrown in, i would do this for rides from 2-4hr. The 3hr+ rides felt like medium difficulty road races by the time i got home and would have an IF of around 0.8


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## Shaggybx (Feb 2, 2008)

function said:


> Perhaps that's the thing, you were doing SST as intervals, i usually do SST for an entire ride, so i'd do about 90% of FTP and then have harder parts thrown in, i would do this for rides from 2-4hr. The 3hr+ rides felt like medium difficulty road races by the time i got home and would have an IF of around 0.8


No, I hear what you're saying bro.
I wrote in my comments,I was talking about 20 minute intervals.I like to do them at or above my FTP.I've been making some good gains recently riding like this a couple of times a week.
I do tempo,SST,Steady State etc on longer rides usually around 1 to 2 hours.
I'll keep it in that SST power range the whole time.
2-4 hr of SST that's pretty damn impressive.
Sorry about the misunderstanding guys.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

function said:


> Perhaps that's the thing, you were doing SST as intervals, i usually do SST for an entire ride, so i'd do about 90% of FTP and then have harder parts thrown in, i would do this for rides from 2-4hr. The 3hr+ rides felt like medium difficulty road races by the time i got home and would have an IF of around 0.8



I'd bet if you looked at your power distribution chart for one of these rides you'd discover you weren't doing 90% threshold for it with some harder parts through in (otherwise your IF would be > .9). I do a lot of 4 hour rides with an IF around .8. The power distribution breaks down to anaerobic capacity = 5%, VO2 max = 9%, threshold = 19% (33 minutes), tempo 17%, endurance = 20% and the rest active recovery (due in part to mountain descents). That's 4 hours riding (another 20 minutes due to water stops, lights etc). That still gets a TSS of 241 - with an IF of .8 that's almost as much training load as a non-alpine stage of the Tour or GIro (which average around 250-260 but lower IF).


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> That still gets a TSS of 241 - with an IF of .8 that's almost as much training load as a non-alpine stage of the Tour or GIro (which average around 250-260 but lower IF).


But a Tour rider's FTP is closer to 375-450 watts. Throw one of us in there and you're looking at a TSS closer to 500 for a 5hr ride instead of 250-260. Let me know if you figure out how to do that!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

iliveonnitro said:


> But a Tour rider's FTP is closer to 375-450 watts. Throw one of us in there and you're looking at a TSS closer to 500 for a 5hr ride instead of 250-260. Let me know if you figure out how to do that!


sure, but that misses the whole point of TSS and these #s - the training load is still similar relative to our respective ftp so it lets us make these comparisons in a meaningful way.


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