# Contador is an amazement



## Tad Pungent (Jun 25, 2009)

Today's time trials are amazing proof of this guy's ability. If you didn't watch, try to get the repeat. Just bloody amazing.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Wrong forum, but I agree. IME, this will be moved very soon.


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## crispy010 (Jan 26, 2009)

Looking at his performance, I can't help but think he's had chemical help. No one goes from not being able to TT to beating out the likes of Canceralla that fast. 

Even with chemicals, an extremely impressive performance. He looks very good on the TT bike - back is flat, pedal stroke is good. Except he kept scooting back on his saddle.


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## JoelS (Aug 25, 2008)

He's been TT'ing well all year. Cancellera likely wore himself out the last few days on the head of the peleton cranking up the pace for the Schlek's.


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## Tad Pungent (Jun 25, 2009)

Christ! I did it again. Too many choices, I suppose.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

crispy010 said:


> Looking at his performance, I can't help but think he's had chemical help. No one goes from not being able to TT to beating out the likes of Canceralla that fast.
> 
> Even with chemicals, an extremely impressive performance. He looks very good on the TT bike - back is flat, pedal stroke is good. Except he kept scooting back on his saddle.



I agree he is on the juice


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## Tad Pungent (Jun 25, 2009)

alias33 said:


> I agree he is on the juice


So, if they stopped the Astana bus going into France, what's the likelihood of someone calling Foul on this fantastic/unbelievable change in performance and pressing for tests? Ditto for Lance's rocketing up 7%'ers like he's being pushed by the hand of God.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

alias33 said:


> I agree he is on the juice


The majority of them probably are. Sadly, that's professional cycling in the modern era.
.


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## Voodoochile (Apr 10, 2009)

This thread should be moved to the doping forum. Sorry I couldn’t resist saying that first.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

High 90's VO2 on the Verbier...beating Cancellara...lol...doped.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

I knew someone would say Fabian was tired. Poppycock. Fabian crushed it, best time until the last guy crossed the line. Im no AC fan but he beat FC fair and square man. FC beat Dave Z, Miilar, Wiggins, Bert, and a host of other great TT guys. AC deserves all the credit. If he's clean, hes the best Ive ever seen. LA was the best TT guy in his day, and a great climber. AC is the first to be the best at both. He is _arguably _the best climber, right? Or at least darn close.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

chuckice said:


> High 90's VO2 on the Verbier...beating Cancellara...lol...doped.


The high 90s figure is disputed. Some believe the calculations were incorrect, and the actual figure is around 80.

Still impressive.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

He had 1 Sec at the base of the climb on Cancellara (Who acknowledged he was conservative to that point in the stage)....he had 45 seconds on Cancelera at the top of the climb (Wow, you mean Contador is a better climber than cancelerra...who knew)............Cancelerra made up 43 seconds on the remaining flats. 

Doesn't seem unreasonbable to me escpecially considering how hard canvcellera worked in the mountains.

YMMV

Len


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

crispy010 said:


> Looking at his performance, I can't help but think he's had chemical help. No one goes from not being able to TT to beating out the likes of Canceralla that fast


When, pray tell, was he no good at time trialing? He was decent two years ago in the 2007 Tour. And he's only been getting better. He's been a very good time trialist this year -- winning the Spanish champ in the TT.

So this isn't an overnight revelation.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

Len J said:


> He had 1 Sec at the base of the climb on Cancellara (Who acknowledged he was conservative to that point in the stage)....he had 45 seconds on Cancelera at the top of the climb (Wow, you mean Contador is a better climber than cancelerra...who knew)............Cancelerra made up 43 seconds on the remaining flats.
> 
> Doesn't seem unreasonbable to me escpecially considering how hard canvcellera worked in the mountains.
> 
> ...


I agree with Len here.

Plus, I believe Contador beat Cancellara on the last TT in 2007 as well. Not completely sure though.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gripped said:


> When, pray tell, was he no good at time trialing? He was decent two years ago in the 2007 Tour. And he's only been getting better. He's been a very good time trialist this year -- winning the Spanish champ in the TT.
> 
> So this isn't an overnight revelation.


and his first professional win back in the day was a TT.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

FondriestFan said:


> I agree with Len here.
> 
> Plus, I believe Contador beat Cancellara on the last TT in 2007 as well. Not completely sure though.


In 2007, Contador was fifth and Cancellara was 12th, so Cancellara has actually improved more than Contador.

http://www.letour.fr/2007/TDF/LIVE/us/1900/classement/index.html (Then click on "Stage Standing")

By the way, I just want to plug the Tour de France site. I've always been impressed by it. It's nice that they keep the previous Tours up there, there is a boatload of information about each stage, they have translations into three major languages besides French, etc. Very informative and useful.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

nate said:


> In 2007, Contador was fifth and Cancellara was 12th, so Cancellara has actually improved more than Contador.
> 
> http://www.letour.fr/2007/TDF/LIVE/us/1900/classement/index.html (Then click on "Stage Standing")
> 
> By the way, I just want to plug the Tour de France site. I've always been impressed by it. It's nice that they keep the previous Tours up there, there is a boatload of information about each stage, they have translations into three major languages besides French, etc. Very informative and useful.


Yes after slipping and falling a couple of times too, because of the wet conditions, while he was wearing the world TT champion stripes. Details, my boy, details.


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## Fogdweller (Mar 26, 2004)

Gripped said:


> So this isn't an overnight revelation.


How true. This guy has been taking TTs for two years now:
2008
Castilla y Leon, overall and two stages, one was a TT
Pais Vasco, again, overall and two stages, one was a TT
Olympics, 4th in the TT

2009
Tour of the Algarve, overall and the TT
Paris-Nice, 4th overall after a bonk, two stages, one was a TT
Pais Vasco, overall and two stages, one was a TT
Spanish national TT title
Tour de France, 2nd on stage 1, winner of 2nd time trial

Why is yesterday's victory such a surprise to most when this guy has an incredible record against the clock? Also, "winning the giro last year when he wasn't prepared for it and lying on a beach" doesn't hold a lot of water. The guy was in rocket shape having just won two stage races. What surprised me was that he won it without taking a stage win.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

MG537 said:


> Yes after slipping and falling a couple of times too, because of the wet conditions, while he was wearing the world TT champion stripes. Details, my boy, details.


Actually, I would expect Cancellara to beat Contador in the world championships every time, just like I expect Contador to be much more competitive in a time trial at the end of a three week stage race.

Again, I think he and others have either doped or are doping, but what he did in the TT is just not much of a surprise.


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

Cancellara claims Contador was able to catch a draft from two motorcycles ahead of him.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

MG537 said:


> Yes after slipping and falling a couple of times too, because of the wet conditions, while he was wearing the world TT champion stripes. Details, my boy, details.


In the last time trial of the Tour?

I think not. It was sunny that day. 

Details, my boy, details.  

(I'm pretty sure Contador did beat Cancellara in the last TT of that year's Tour, though). I'll check.


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## loudog (Jul 22, 2008)

contador avoided questions that he should have answered.


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## RSPDiver (Jun 3, 2006)

His TT dominance strikes me thusly: sure Fabian was pushing hard up to the climb, but then the climbers took off. Contador was zipping up them, looking like it was effortless. Admittedly, Fab's forte is not climbing, but then again he was nowhere near Contador on the actual climb. Contador was able to go that hard, that effortlessly, up that grade, and then absolutely crush the TT right after. And you can say that he's done it in other races, but since '06 I would say that he should be under some sort of suspicion, even if cleared from OP. Which Spanish riders got really fried after OP? And that's a real question, because I honestly don't know the answer. But I don't recall any.

Does that mean Lance probably was on a program back in his day? Yep, probably. But I don't know that he's on the same kind of program now. He's much more human in this Tour, IMHO.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Contador has always been a great time trialer so I don't know where the comments about him magically becoming one are coming from. He was the Spanish U23 national time trial champion in 2002. That's a huge achievement if you think about how strong Spain's road cycling development programs are.


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## CabDoctor (Jun 11, 2005)

I thought his comment in Velonews was interesting. 

"Q: Can you tell us you’ve won clean and can you make a strong stand against doping?

AC: Like I’ve said, I am available 365 days to doping control. I am never with an excuse. I am always in favor of the anti-doping controls. It’s good for the sport, for cycling, which I love so much. I always pass the controls with a happy face and I will keep undergoing them. "

He talks a lot but says nothing to answer the question.


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## Tad Pungent (Jun 25, 2009)

I must be missing something here, and admittedly am not a full time follower of racing, but how hard can it be to run tests on all winners/near winners on each stage? There must be a limited number of enhancing drugs to test for. Can someone enlighten me on this?


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Tad Pungent said:


> I must be missing something here, and admittedly am not a full time follower of racing, but how hard can it be to run tests on all winners/near winners on each stage? There must be a limited number of enhancing drugs to test for. Can someone enlighten me on this?


The fdopers have always been one step ahead of the testers.

It took the powers to be 3 years to vome up with an EPO test that worked.........menawhile, by the time the test was instituted, the dopers had moved on to natural blood doping coupled with masking agents etc, etc.

Many of the drugs used are similar to natural body substances. These substances vary in concentrations, individual by individual. In addition, many of the drugs are used to enhance recovery during training which allows for more intense and longer training allowing for greater strength buildup. By the time the tours come around, the drugs are out of their systems but the strength gains endure.

Next great cheat is genetic based...how do you think they will catch that?

Len


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## Tad Pungent (Jun 25, 2009)

I should have worked out the line of thinking on this, and I can see that doping won't be going away anytime soon. No stopping it, I suppose, unless a chemist or two who are designing the drugs come forward. What's the answer? Knowing what's going on does remove much of my admiration for these fellows, though.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

Why is it a Alberto Contador vs. Fabian Cancellara issue? Contador beat _EVERY_ TT specialist on a course that suited a TT rider much better (except for the Cat 3 Climb). Could you say _every_ TT rider had a bad day @ the same time Contador had one of the TT performances of a lifetime?...and further still, that Contador hat one of the TT's of a lifetime _right after_ fighting off the pure climbers in the mountains?

This is from a guy who is 140 lbs/63.5 kilos soaking wet.

Common sense would show that that doesn't look right. In principle, how different is that from a pure sprinter dropping a pack of pure climbers up an HC climb?? Just looking at the situation, the perfomance IMO looks suspicious. He could very well have produced such an effort on bread-&-water, but again, it looks suspicious.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Tad Pungent said:


> I should have worked out the line of thinking on this, and I can see that doping won't be going away anytime soon. No stopping it, I suppose, unless a chemist or two who are designing the drugs come forward. What's the answer? Knowing what's going on does remove much of my admiration for these fellows, though.


The doping only allows them to work harder in preparing than they might otherwise, but they still have to work.

The baseline measures they are using are a start..........it will detect changes in base bio-chemistry.

You have to remember that's it's a big business...it's entertainment. As long as everyone is feeding at the trough, don't look for it to change....just enjoy the spectacle and don't get personally invested in these riders. They are being used and then thrown away.

Len


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

jpdigital said:


> Could you say _every_ TT rider had a bad day @ the same time Contador had one of the TT performances of a lifetime?...and further still, that Contador hat one of the TT's of a lifetime _right after_ fighting off the pure climbers in the mountains?


No, you could say that Contador had yet another in a lengthy string of very good TT performances. Try reading the entire thread. I'm not saying clean or dirty, just that as many have already pointed out, this actually wasn't an atypical TT performance for him based on form from the past couple of years.

Levi Leipheimer and Cadel Evans are little smurfs too, and have been kicking a lot of butts in TTs over the past few years. Better include them in the discussion too if that's your criteria.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

Circlip said:


> No, you could say that Contador had yet another in a lengthy string of very good TT performances. Try reading the entire thread. I'm not saying clean or dirty, just that as many have already pointed out, this actually wasn't an atypical TT performance for him based on form from the past couple of years.
> 
> Levi Leipheimer and Cadel Evans are little smurfs too, and have been kicking a lot of butts in TTs over the past few years. Better include them in the discussion too if that's your criteria.


Actually, I _did_ read _every_ thread. And I did not say he had _the_ TT of a lifetime. I said he had _one of the best_ TT performances of his career. I did not try to imply that his TT this year was his best ever, I just found it curious that a pure climber could beat an entire _field_ of TT riders given the situation. As well, I'm not saying clean or dirty either, just curious.

Yes: Levi & Cadel are smurfs as well, so your point on including them is a valid one, as they consistently produce very good results in the TT.


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## coreyb (Aug 4, 2003)

Len J said:


> The fdopers have always been one step ahead of the testers.
> ...
> Next great cheat is genetic based...how do you think they will catch that?


How broad are the rules? I assume they are formulated in a "you can't use X" manner, so wouldn't being ahead of the curve in some ways not actually be "cheating" but instead a grey area? Are there currently rules against genetic enhancements?


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## dclee (Nov 16, 2004)

Contador's history of great time trials is fairly recent - really only since joining Astana has he been one of the best in the world and not just pretty good. The U23 Spanish national title has been mentioned, but that same year he went to the worlds and got spanked - i.e. not in the top ten. Historically, there was no real indication that Contador would be one of the best TTs in the world - though someone will pull out a tour of poland result or something to suggest otherwise. Cancellera/Ignatiev, etc they have the history as world's best - Contador really does not. He does have the history as a world class climber yes, but not as a TTer. 

Something about Astana/Postal/Discovery and its ability to really improve people's TT abilities. Heck, look at Levi's results TT results when he was on Gerosteiner and Rabobank, good but not the best in the World. Comes to Astana and becomes arguably the best in the world.


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