# Centurion Elite vs Diamondback Centurion Master TG vs Raleigh Technium Pre



## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

Hello all, I am new to this forum and I hope I put this in the right category. I am looking to buy my first road bike. I have been looking on CL and I have found a few that I thought were interesting. The first is a 1986 Centurion Elite RS, the second is a Diamondback Centurion Master TG, and the last is a 1989 Raleigh Technium Pre. The DB is listed at $250, the Elite is listed at $225, and the seller of the Raleigh said he will take $110. I was wondering which would be the best to start out on? Also, which would be the best deal? Here are the pictures of them.

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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

the Elite is a much nicer bike then the others are. The RS series of the Elite line was their bottom of the line Elite's but not their bottom of the line bike. I think those came with Shimano 600, if so those were very reliable components; and Tange (1?) cromoly tubing which was really decent tubing.

The other two are lower in quality than the Elite. The Diamond back came with 105 components which were good but not as good as the 600 stuff. Tig welded instead of lugged frame, and the frame was True Temper RC2 which was more closely related to Tange 2 which was a slightly lower frame then Tange 1 l if I remember correctly.

The Raleigh was an aluminum bike and depending on the miles and abuse it received the frame could be shot, but it did come with great components, the Suntour Cyclone derailleur system was better than the Shimano 600 but the Suntour Accushift they put on that bike did not fair well against the Shimano SIS system.

Make sure whichever bike you decide on that it fits primarily. Also the Elite looks a lot nicer in my opinion than the others.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

froze said:


> the Elite is a much nicer bike then the others are. The RS series of the Elite line was their bottom of the line Elite's but not their bottom of the line bike. I think those came with Shimano 600, if so those were very reliable components; and Tange (1?) cromoly tubing which was really decent tubing.
> 
> The other two are lower in quality than the Elite. The Diamond back came with 105 components which were good but not as good as the 600 stuff. Tig welded instead of lugged frame, and the frame was True Temper RC2 which was more closely related to Tange 2 which was a slightly lower frame then Tange 1 l if I remember correctly.
> 
> ...



According to the ad for the Raleigh, it was in storage for most of it's life. How can I tell if the frame is shot?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Pedal said:


> According to the ad for the Raleigh, it was in storage for most of it's life. How can I tell if the frame is shot?


Good question, you may not be able too until you ride it for awhile. You can try hammering on it, not with a hammer but with an all out out of the saddle leg pounding sprint (up a hill if you can find one near by, otherwise flat ground will work) to see if it creaks, or there are rubbing sounds like the chain hitting both sides of the front derailleur, or the back wheel rubbing the brake blocks, or the chain jumping out of gear. 

If it's been in storage and only ridden for a few miles and the gear teeth both front and rear look new then maybe it will be a good bike. The Elite will be worth more in the long run if you ever decide to sell it, depending on condition at the time of course.

It is a toss up, you have to get what you like since you're the one that is riding it. But I would not get the Diamond Back, it was a good bike but not up to the standards of the other two.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

froze said:


> Good question, you may not be able too until you ride it for awhile. You can try hammering on it, not with a hammer but with an all out out of the saddle leg pounding sprint (up a hill if you can find one near by, otherwise flat ground will work) to see if it creaks, or there are rubbing sounds like the chain hitting both sides of the front derailleur, or the back wheel rubbing the brake blocks, or the chain jumping out of gear.
> 
> If it's been in storage and only ridden for a few miles and the gear teeth both front and rear look new then maybe it will be a good bike. The Elite will be worth more in the long run if you ever decide to sell it, depending on condition at the time of course.
> 
> It is a toss up, you have to get what you like since you're the one that is riding it. But I would not get the Diamond Back, it was a good bike but not up to the standards of the other two.


Those were the main two I was looking at, but I saw the DB today and I thought that the DBack was a newer version of the Elite.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Pedal said:


> Those were the main two I was looking at, but I saw the DB today and I thought that the DBack was a newer version of the Elite.


They were the same bike in their MTB series of bikes and their low end road bikes but not their mid to high end road bikes in the year that the Elite was built. Of course it's possible that the DB Centurion could be the updated version but it's not as good as the Elite was. Just because Diamond Back (actually Western States Industry) took over the Centurion name doesn't mean it was better because it's newer. Centurion was never a bike manufacture anyway, just a name created by a marketing company here in the USA and had manufactures in Japan build the bikes. You can read about the history of Centurion on Wikipedia. But the design team behind the bike made sure that these bikes were going to be good bikes and they were as long as it wasn't sold in a department store and was bought in a LBS. Which is what pissed off LBS that was selling Centurion because the name would sell inferior and lower costing product to department stores and then expect the bike shops to sell the better units, that idea failed and LBS's stopped carrying the line. Centurion and Nishiki were both just names on a sticker that came out with some fantastic bikes and to this day some of the older vintage Centurion's especially do get decent resale prices.

I did make one mistake, the Elite RS used the Tange 3 tubeset not the 2 that I said earlier according to what I read on the internet which puts it about the same league as the Diamond Back. The only problem I have with that website I read is that I thought the Tange 3 was used in touring bikes not road bikes as the Elite RS is, so I'm still confused from my memory vs what I've read. You can find this out by looking at the frame sticker.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

According to the pictures, it is tange 2. 
View attachment 283619


In your opinion, is the Elite worth $115 more than the Pre if they were the same condition?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Pedal said:


> According to the pictures, it is tange 2.
> View attachment 283619
> 
> 
> In your opinion, is the Elite worth $115 more than the Pre if they were the same condition?


I'm a sucker for steel and lugs, so I may not be the best person to ask this question because I would be bias. Personally, and from what I've seen in the marketplace, a similar valued bike when new, the one with steel and lugs has better resale then an aluminum bike. Now there were a few aluminum bikes that do resell pretty good, Vitus and Alan (very similar to each other) those do hold their values well, but on the low to mid-end aluminum not so much, and that's where the Pre stands.

Ride both if you can and see which one appeals to you, just make sure you hammer the AL one especially. Also when you ride the bike try riding with no hands to see how each tracks, if one tracks funny check to make sure the back wheel is centered between the stays, if not try to get it to center, if it can't be centered then you have a bent rear stay and or frame.

The Tange 2 by the was is a great tubeset. I guess my memory was better than the website I read...that's rare!!!


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## RobbieTunes (Jan 21, 2008)

Perhaps I can help a bit, knowing a bit about Centurions and the subsequent Diamondbacks, and having owned a Technium, (but not the Pre).

The Elite RS you show has the graphics and font that changed in 1986. It was basically #2 in the Centurion lineup, behind the Tange 1-tubed Ironman. It used Tange 2 tubing, which was 2.2oz heavier (for a 58cm frame) than the Tange 1. The geometry was slightly less aggressive than the Ironman, and it was replaced the next year by the Lemans RS. The RS designation did not mean it was any lower on the ladder than an Elite. The Elite RS basically had the '85 Ironman's groupset, 600EX, and the one in the photo is showing the same rims that came on the '86 Ironman. It was an excellent all-around bike, and is well preserved because of the multilayered paint scheme specified for Centurions. The drawbacks on this were the 600EX indexed R shifter's inclination to fail, which probably was fixed by 1986, and the non-sprung, non-SLR brake levers, which have less modulation feel to them than the later SLR levers.

The Diamondback Master TG is almost certainly an early model, using the same paint scheme (marbled grey fade) as the 1989 Ironman Master model. The geometry is much more akin to that of the 1989 Centurion Lemans RS, which, for all practical purposes, was an Elite RS. The tubing is not that much of an issue, nor is the TIG welding. There is likely not enough of a difference to really matter to a rider. The components, however, are much more reliable indexed 105, with not only sprung calipers, but sprung SLR brake levers as well. Bikes roll on wheels, and the D'back appears to have the Araya CTL-370 rims, akin to a Wolber Super Champion Alpine. Some of the D'backs had Matrix rims in that same design, so the wheels are a wash as far as rolling on good, ball bearing hubs and nice rims. 

The Raleigh Technium was not an all-aluminum frame. The headtube, fork, and rear triangle are steel, the main triangle is aluminum, bonded to the steel with glue. This gave a lighter, stiffer main triangle, provided the bonds held. I've heard anecdotal evidence of this, but never seen one fail, and I totalled a Technium on a dog, wherein the fork came up to the downtube, and the frame bent severely, with no failure of the bonds. The "Pre" was a few steps up the ladder for the Technium, eclipsed at the top by the "Pro," however, I do not know if the differences were with the frame or the components. Suntour certainly could make great RD's, FD's are FD's in most cases, but I agree with the poster on the shifters. The difference between 105 indexed and Suntour's Accushift is fairly pronounced. Suntour came in, too little, too late, with GPX and other indexing to save itself in that market. My guess is that the wheelset is inferior to the Centurion or Diamondback hoops, but if those are Suntour hubs, they're probably pretty decent.

Value-wise, I'd rank them this way:

1-The $110 Technium, for day to day casual riding, is, of course, a value. It's also a good road bike if you begin to take that up on a regular basis. Will it perform on a par with the other two? No, but that doesn't make it a lower value at half the price. I doubt you'd ever not get $100 for it, in rideable condition.

2-The $225 Elite RS can run to the store and do a century or more with aplomb. It's built for the task, and the components are good quality. It can handle upgrades to even 8/9/10 drivetrains with little difficulty. The best all-around bike in the bunch, and over several years, the extra $115 is a pittance. You're not buying it for a short-term situation, I hope, but if you decide to "upgrade" from steel (debatable, even to this day), you'll see your investment back.

3-The Master TG has a slight edge, only because the "newer" 105 of the era had SLR braking and had the benefit of feedback/competition of the 80's dogfight that was the consumer road bike market. However, it's heavier, I'll bet, than either. Oddly enough, the Master TG would probably net more, parted out, than either of the other two. It has Look pedals, which require shoes and cleats. That's something to consider as well. It should be 7-speed where the Elite RS is 6-sp. I'm not sure about the Technium, as mine was friction Suntour with amazingly great ratcheting shifters.

In summary, fit is first, no matter what. The best road bike that doesn't fit is simply not a value at all. The frames appear similar in size, and stem changes, saddle changes, etc can make a huge difference. If they all fit, I'd buy the Elite RS.

*Disclaimer: *I am a Centurion fan, no doubt about it. I've owned many, many, and have also owned the Diamondback Expert TG of that same era, and a Raleigh Technium 440.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Great info, I thank you for that for one. I was going off of memory which after all those years was a bit faded.


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## RobbieTunes (Jan 21, 2008)

I'm generally on Bike Forums, Classic & Vintage, but was looking (in vain) for info on a Cinelli XLR8R-2 bike frame, which I recently bought and will build. I'll have two Cinelli's, 20 years apart, but I doubt I can like any one more than my '85.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Cinelli's to this day are reportedly and supposedly the most comfortable steel racing frame ever made. I can't vouch for that since I've never rode one nor have I ridden all the steel racing bikes ever made!


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## RobbieTunes (Jan 21, 2008)

froze said:


> Cinelli's to this day are reportedly and supposedly the most comfortable steel racing frame ever made. I can't vouch for that since I've never rode one nor have I ridden all the steel racing bikes ever made!


If you want to go fast, and not hammer yourself into a catatonic state, that's the frame for you. Fast and smooth defines them, pretty much.

Centurion sold a Cinelli-made bike, the Equipe, in 1985. I've owned and modernized two of them, and I really like them. 

I've also had an '89 Super Corsa, and an '89 Pinarello Montello. They were worth more to me to sell than keep, at the time I had them. 

Dollar for dollar, an Ironman is still close enough to all of those, in tubing and ride quality, to be a better value in a frame. For status, no, but in a blindfold test, given identical components and wheels, most people would be very, very surprised.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

RobbieTunes said:


> Perhaps I can help a bit, knowing a bit about Centurions and the subsequent Diamondbacks, and having owned a Technium, (but not the Pre).
> 
> The Elite RS you show has the graphics and font that changed in 1986. It was basically #2 in the Centurion lineup, behind the Tange 1-tubed Ironman. It used Tange 2 tubing, which was 2.2oz heavier (for a 58cm frame) than the Tange 1. The geometry was slightly less aggressive than the Ironman, and it was replaced the next year by the Lemans RS. The RS designation did not mean it was any lower on the ladder than an Elite. The Elite RS basically had the '85 Ironman's groupset, 600EX, and the one in the photo is showing the same rims that came on the '86 Ironman. It was an excellent all-around bike, and is well preserved because of the multilayered paint scheme specified for Centurions. The drawbacks on this were the 600EX indexed R shifter's inclination to fail, which probably was fixed by 1986, and the non-sprung, non-SLR brake levers, which have less modulation feel to them than the later SLR levers.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info. The Raleigh owner emailed me today and said that the rear tire will not hold air more than a day and therefore he will take $90. I assume the Elite has a more aggressive stance than the Raleigh? I read somewhere that the Pre and the Pro share the frame, but the Pro has better components, but I don't know how true that is. How big would you say that Raleigh looks to you? It is said to be a 59cm, but it looks like it may be bigger. The Elite is said to be a 58cm and that should fit me. I love the two tone look and the stance of the Elite, but I keep thinking about how cheap the Pre is.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

I also am considering a 1988 Trek 1000 for $130. There is another Elite RS in the area and it is listed at $200. It appears to not be in as good a shape as the previous one.It also, appears to be taller. Here are pictures:

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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Did the first Elite get sold and you were unable to acquire it?


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

froze said:


> Did the first Elite get sold and you were unable to acquire it?


No the first Elite is still available. I looked at that one because it was cheaper.


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## RobbieTunes (Jan 21, 2008)

I can't shop for you, or make decisions for you. You submitted 3 bikes for consideration, and were given the information with which you could make a more informed decision. Coming back with more questions and an additional bike, with prices, tends to indicate you may be unable to make a decision, even given the information you need. The anxiety level is tough when getting into the sport, but relax, pick a bike and go, baby, go!

As far as price difference, in the grand scheme of things, $100-$150 difference on a bike you may ride for years is inconsequential. 

I know nothing of those early aluminum Treks other than that they are fairly harsh riding. 

If you want a road bike, use the information you can find, make a choice, then ride it like you stole it, embrace it, fix it up, tear it down, build it your way, but once you're on it, it's yours. It's all good.

Fit = #1, so get in touch with your proper size, perhaps at a bike shop, then go get a bike. Appears there are plenty in your market, but if you keep waffling and asking, the good riding weather will be gone before you know it. It may be that all the information is a bit of an overload, so make yourself a chart, run the pro's and con's, if that helps.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

RobbieTunes said:


> I can't shop for you, or make decisions for you. You submitted 3 bikes for consideration, and were given the information with which you could make a more informed decision. Coming back with more questions and an additional bike, with prices, tends to indicate you may be unable to make a decision, even given the information you need. The anxiety level is tough when getting into the sport, but relax, pick a bike and go, baby, go!
> 
> As far as price difference, in the grand scheme of things, $100-$150 difference on a bike you may ride for years is inconsequential.
> 
> ...


Your right, I am very bad at making decisions. I tend to want to delay them and make sure they are the right one and it has been costing me when it comes to bikes because in my area they sell really fast. I am sorry about all of the questions. I will be getting one today or tomorrow. I will be getting either the Pre or the Elite based on the feel of the bike and the vibe I get from the owner. If this were cars I would be so better off at picking the right one.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

I got the Raleigh yesterday. So far I am happy with the decision. If it wasn't for the tires and the handlebar tape, it would look new.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Pedal said:


> I got the Raleigh yesterday. So far I am happy with the decision. If it wasn't for the tires and the handlebar tape, it would look new.


Congrats!! If I saw those bikes and the Raleigh looked new and barely used I would have edged toward that one as well. It's difficult to tell with less than detailed pics what condition any of those bikes were in, but if the Raleigh was indeed rarely ridden then stored away, yeah you got a good bike that will last quite a while.

Tires/tubes/bar tape are cheap to get. If you've never done taping before You Tube has videos that will show you how it's done. You should also replace the rim tape because years of sitting has probably rotted them, anyway it's good insurance against flats to replace them, any cloth tape is good like Velox or Zefal, if your not sure what size to get simply take a rim down to an LBS and have them give you the right width. Rim tape is easy to install, I'm sure there is a video for that too but I never needed such a thing because it's so easy.


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## Mr. Pedal (Jul 5, 2013)

froze said:


> Congrats!! If I saw those bikes and the Raleigh looked new and barely used I would have edged toward that one as well. It's difficult to tell with less than detailed pics what condition any of those bikes were in, but if the Raleigh was indeed rarely ridden then stored away, yeah you got a good bike that will last quite a while.
> 
> Tires/tubes/bar tape are cheap to get. If you've never done taping before You Tube has videos that will show you how it's done. You should also replace the rim tape because years of sitting has probably rotted them, anyway it's good insurance against flats to replace them, any cloth tape is good like Velox or Zefal, if your not sure what size to get simply take a rim down to an LBS and have them give you the right width. Rim tape is easy to install, I'm sure there is a video for that too but I never needed such a thing because it's so easy.


Thanks!!! I already replaced the bar tape and I bought tubes. I am still looking at different places to buy tires. It came down to the Raleigh and the Trek. The person selling the Trek was very hard to stay in contact with and swayed my decision. I couldn't find info online to which one would have been better. I still wish I was able to look at both before I made my purchase, but the Raleigh looks pretty good, the price was better, and the seller gave me a good vibe.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Funny you brought up these bikes. They were decent machines. FYI, Centurion and Diamond Back were the same company. In the earlier years, Centurion name was used on the road bike and Diamond Back name was used on the MTB and BMX bikes. Around 1990, they started phasing out the Centurion name and you would find Diamond Back and Centurion on models like the Ironman. By 1992, they were all Diamond Back. I forgot who the Distributor was but they brought over many bikes brands back then and all were decent machines. Of all of them, the Centurion Ironman (Expert and Masters models) plus the mid to late 80's Centurion Lemans RS were the best, IMO. The Raleighs were pretty decent but there was noticeable flex from those "Tri-lite" lugged aluminum frames.


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