# Maxxis padrone tubeless



## roadboy (Apr 1, 2003)

Looking at some new tubeless tire offerings. The Maxxis Padrone tubeless tire retails for $120 a piece, they are cheaper online but the lowest price i found was $99. Seems a little crazy, a Hutchinson fusion 3 or atom is only about $75 retail and can be found much cheaper. Just had to point this out to any tubeless owners


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

I've noticed the same thing. I'd like to give them a try, but not at that price. I sure hope they aren't rebadged Hutchinsons.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

Yes, the price a bit high. I've been riding Padrone prototypes for almost two years now, and I'm completely sold on tubeless road. I can say the same for Rory Sutherland. Hopefully the marketplace will have some influence, and the price will come down. I, for one, would like to see more people give the Padrone a shot.

They definitely aren't rebadged Hutchinsons. They are made in the Maxxis Taiwan factory, and each tire is X-rayed to inspect for voids or other imperfections.

_Disclaimer - I work for Maxxis._


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

Good to hear from a Maxxis employee. 

How would you characterize the difficulty in mounting a Padrone (as compared to a Fusion 2 or 3)?


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

MWT said:


> Good to hear from a Maxxis employee.
> 
> How would you characterize the difficulty in mounting a Padrone (as compared to a Fusion 2 or 3)?


I would say about the same. The tolerances on the beads are extremely tight, and both Hutchinson and Maxxis use the same carbon fiber material. So it's pretty similar.

I will say that the rubber surrounding the bead on the Maxxis Padrone is a bit softer than that used on Hutchinson's tires. This seems to make inflation easier (especially when using a floor pump) and may yeild better air retention. However I think it might be a little easier to damage, so take care not to use exessive force with a tire lever (or a tire lever with sharp edges).


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## gsorvino (Jan 16, 2011)

bholwell said:


> Yes, the price a bit high. I've been riding Padrone prototypes for almost two years now, and I'm completely sold on tubeless road. I can say the same for Rory Sutherland. Hopefully the marketplace will have some influence, and the price will come down. I, for one, would like to see more people give the Padrone a shot.
> 
> They definitely aren't rebadged Hutchinsons. They are made in the Maxxis Taiwan factory, and each tire is X-rayed to inspect for voids or other imperfections.
> 
> _Disclaimer - I work for Maxxis._



Care to comment on longevity versus the Hutchinson tires? I just started with the Intensive and looked at the Padrone but the price is steep.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

gsorvino said:


> Care to comment on longevity versus the Hutchinson tires? I just started with the Intensive and looked at the Padrone but the price is steep.


I wish I could, but I haven't spent much time on the Hutchinson tires. I weigh about 170 kitted up, the roads here in N. GA aren't too bad, but there can be a fair amount of debris on the shoulders at times, and I'm getting about 4000 mi on the rear tire- probably could push it to 5k.


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## gsorvino (Jan 16, 2011)

bholwell said:


> I wish I could, but I haven't spent much time on the Hutchinson tires. I weigh about 170 kitted up, the roads here in N. GA aren't too bad, but there can be a fair amount of debris on the shoulders at times, and I'm getting about 4000 mi on the rear tire- probably could push it to 5k.


I am a Clyde so this will be a real world test for Hutchinson LO... I have then on Fulcrum 1 2-ways... LBS did built them said they are good wheels and great tires. I would be happy if they hold like a Conti GP4000.


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## EAJN (Apr 4, 2011)

*Maxxis Padrone - Huge Disappointment*

I bit the bullet and spent $200 for a set in the hope they would be an improvement over the Hutchinsons. I had no problem getting them onto the rim, but had significant issues getting them to seal and inflate. The first set of wheels I used were DT Tricon 1450s. When trying to inflate the tires air was coming out of the drain holes on the rims. This seemed odd and I thought the rims might not be airtight. I then tried the tires on a set of Campy Shamal Two-Way Fit wheels. I had the same problem with air coming out of the drain holes on the rim. At this point I was stumped so took both sets of wheels and the tires to my LBS. A very good mechanic had the same problem and it took him 40 minutes to figure out that despite the valves being very tight on the rims, they were not getting a good seal and the air was leaking into the rim cavity. This did not happen mounting Hutchinsons. Apparently, the bead on the Padrone is larger and interferes with the valve seating firmly against the rim. We finally fixed this by tightening the stems very aggressively. 

Once we solved the valve seating issue, we get the tires to inflate. Unfortunately, they lose about 40 PSI overnight. Maxxis told me they do not want people using sealant on the Padrone, so that eliminates the ability to address the slow air loss.

The other significant problem is that the tire is advertised as a 23C tire, but when mounted they measure 21C with a digital caliper. Since the primary reason I bought the tires was for use on rough roads, changing from my GP4000s tires, that measure an actual 23C when new and slightly larger after a few weeks, to the narrower Padrones is likely to just trade the benefits of tubeless for the benefits of a wider tire. It is very deceptive to advertise a tire as a 23C tire and deliver it as a 21C.

I am stuck with these tires because I mounted them, but would definitely recommend against buying them.


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

EAJN,

Thanks for the detailed review. That's bad news - I was hoping for a good alternative to Hutchinson. However, my most recent set of Fusion 3s were relatively easy to mount and I've had no problem with them holding air without sealant. They did, however, measure slightly less than 23mm.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

MWT said:


> EAJN,
> 
> Thanks for the detailed review. That's bad news - I was hoping for a good alternative to Hutchinson. However, my most recent set of Fusion 3s were relatively easy to mount and I've had no problem with them holding air without sealant. They did, however, measure slightly less than 23mm.


What rims do you have? On my Dura Ace 7850 SL's the Fusions 3's are a bit over 24mm


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

purdyd said:


> What rims do you have? On my Dura Ace 7850 SL's the Fusions 3's are a bit over 24mm


I have one set of 7850 SLs and one set of 7850 C24 Sls. On both, Fusion 3s measure under 23mm. However, my previous Fusion 2s measured around 24mm. I think Hutchinson must have some QC issues.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

EAJN said:


> I bit the bullet and spent $200 for a set in the hope they would be an improvement over the Hutchinsons. I had no problem getting them onto the rim, but had significant issues getting them to seal and inflate. The first set of wheels I used were DT Tricon 1450s. When trying to inflate the tires air was coming out of the drain holes on the rims. This seemed odd and I thought the rims might not be airtight. I then tried the tires on a set of Campy Shamal Two-Way Fit wheels. I had the same problem with air coming out of the drain holes on the rim. At this point I was stumped so took both sets of wheels and the tires to my LBS. A very good mechanic had the same problem and it took him 40 minutes to figure out that despite the valves being very tight on the rims, they were not getting a good seal and the air was leaking into the rim cavity. This did not happen mounting Hutchinsons. Apparently, the bead on the Padrone is larger and interferes with the valve seating firmly against the rim. We finally fixed this by tightening the stems very aggressively.
> 
> Once we solved the valve seating issue, we get the tires to inflate. Unfortunately, they lose about 40 PSI overnight. Maxxis told me they do not want people using sealant on the Padrone, so that eliminates the ability to address the slow air loss.
> 
> ...


EAJN, what is the width of your rims? And inflation pressure? The Padrones, mounted on Dura-Ace WH-7850 rims, consistently measure over 23mm wide. I measured the tire shown below at 6 different locations, averaged the results, and got 23.09mm. I wouldn't call that dishonest sizing. The Padrones mounted on my Stan's Alpha rims measure around 23.9mm.



















And if you're losing 40 psi overnight, it's likely that either the innerliner or the bead cushion was damaged during the installation or removal of the tire. Maxxis does not recommend the use of sealant simply because it would be nearly impossible to test every sealant on the market, so take that for what it's worth.


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## EAJN (Apr 4, 2011)

I am measuring the Padrones on DT Tricon 1450 wheels.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

EAJN said:


> I am measuring the Padrones on DT Tricon 1450 wheels.


Internal width? Also, tires will expand a bit over the first 48 hours. Best to give them at least a day at max inflation pressure before measuring.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

MWT said:


> I have one set of 7850 SLs and one set of 7850 C24 Sls. On both, Fusion 3s measure under 23mm. However, my previous Fusion 2s measured around 24mm. I think Hutchinson must have some QC issues.


i suspect there is more variation in measuring methodolgy- 

for instance, what PSI, how long the tire has been mounted, or how many places the tire is measured.


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## EAJN (Apr 4, 2011)

The rim width on the Tricon wheels is 20MM. I did the initial measurement at 90PSI, which is what I would use as a light rider. (I run my GP4000s tires at 100-105.) I took the attached picture (sorry, I can't figure out how to insert it like you did) at 100PSI, and the cross section is slightly wider (21.4).

I have no way to know if the tires are damaged. You seem to be a Maxxis employee, o you are better equipped to determine whether there is damage. I will give you the facts on the tire mounting and you can tell me whether it is reasonable for the tires to be damaged. I mounted the tires by hand. I removed the tires to test them on the Campy wheels using the Maxxis supplied tire levers. If this damages the tires, I wonder whether they are durable enough for real world use.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

EAJN said:


> The rim width on the Tricon wheels is 20MM. I did the initial measurement at 90PSI, which is what I would use as a light rider. (I run my GP4000s tires at 100-105.) I took the attached picture (sorry, I can't figure out how to insert it like you did) at 100PSI, and the cross section is slightly wider (21.4).
> 
> I have no way to know if the tires are damaged. You seem to be a Maxxis employee, o you are better equipped to determine whether there is damage. I will give you the facts on the tire mounting and you can tell me whether it is reasonable for the tires to be damaged. I mounted the tires by hand. I removed the tires to test them on the Campy wheels using the Maxxis supplied tire levers. If this damages the tires, I wonder whether they are durable enough for real world use.


The Dura-Ace 7850 measure 21mm wide, externally. So I imagine if the wall thickness and bead hook dimensions are similar, than the internal width of your DT Swiss rims is going to be roughly 1mm less than than the WH-7850's. This will account for some of the difference we're seeing. I suspect that because your tires are brand new, and haven't been inflated long (due to your leak), then they haven't had a chance to expand, either.

You can check to see if the innerliner has been damaged by submerging your tire in a water-filled bathtub or kiddie pool. If bubbles are forming on the sidewall, then cut(s) in the innerliner are allowing air to pass through the casing. And if bubbles are coming from where the rim meets the tire, then the bead cushion (the rubber around the bead) has been compromised. Excessive force with a tire lever can cause these types of damages, no matter what brand. It's important to make sure the bead is completely dropped down into the center channel of the rim before trying to remove the tire. And always be gentle with the levers.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

bholwell, Please confirm; can sealant be used with the Maxis Padrone tubeless tires?


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

natedg200202 said:


> bholwell, Please confirm; can sealant be used with the Maxis Padrone tubeless tires?


At this time, Maxxis does not condone the use of sealants in Maxxis tires. The possible effects of sealants on Maxxis tires are unknown.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

bholwell said:


> At this time, Maxxis does not condone the use of sealants in Maxxis tires. The possible effects of sealants on Maxxis tires are unknown.


that is a huge marketing mistake

while i understand it is nearly impossible to test all brands of sealant, it seems very strange after several years of development that at least one or two brands have not been subjected to log term testing

i wish Maxxis all the luck on this product but it seems between the price and not condoning sealant, you are off to a rocky start


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

Just run sealant. Have you really ever returned a tire anyway? I've been running non-tubeless 29er tires for years with sealant and no tubes. A double whammy of non-recommended practices, but I've never had a problem, or expected that the manufacturer would support me if it all went south.

Maxxis simply seems to be saying that they don't support warranty claims if you run these tires tubeless with sealant. They're not saying that you'll have two headed spawn, or that Sarah Palin will become President.


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

purdyd said:


> i suspect there is more variation in measuring methodolgy-
> 
> for instance, what PSI, how long the tire has been mounted, or how many places the tire is measured.



Both sets of tires were new and freshly mounted and the pressure was around 95 psi rear/ 90 psi front. Measurements were taken with non-digital calipers at two locations on each tire.


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## EAJN (Apr 4, 2011)

For whatever it is worth, I gave up on the Padornes as an expensive failed experiment (too narrow, don't hold air well, discouraged by someone from Maxxis claiming that the tires are damaged from routine mounting) and mounted a new set of GP4000S tires on the Tricon wheels. The Padrones measured just over 21MM on these wheels, the GP4000S tires measure 23MM on the nose.


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## arc123 (Sep 17, 2005)

EAJN said:


> For whatever it is worth, I gave up on the Padornes as an expensive failed experiment (too narrow, don't hold air well, discouraged by someone from Maxxis claiming that the tires are damaged from routine mounting) and mounted a new set of GP4000S tires on the Tricon wheels. The Padrones measured just over 21MM on these wheels, the GP4000S tires measure 23MM on the nose.



That someone from Maxxis is the senior tire design and development engineer. You should read his posts a little more closely, particularly posts
5 and 18.


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## EAJN (Apr 4, 2011)

I did read his posts closely. I also know that I worked in bike shops for years and am relatively skilled in mounting tires. The mechanic I brought the wheels and ties to for help is even more skilled. If we damaged the tires with hand mounting and removal with the Maxxis supplied tire levers, the odds of other people damaging the tires are likely to be pretty high. I don't claim to be perfect or guarantee I didn't make a mistake, just that if I did, others are likely to as well.

Maybe there is a manufacturing variance in the tires that accounts for the narrow width on my set, but it is not a result of the wheels. The wheels are 20MM wide, which is not wide in the context of the current trend towards wider rims, but is certainly a standard width. I used the GP4000 tires as a well know reference and measured both using the same technique. They Padrones I have are simply narrower.

Bear in mind I wanted these tires to work. I would not have spent $200 for the pair if I thought they would be a failure. I was particularly excited to have them in advance of some upcoming races on very poor roads. The lure of a better ride and greater puncture resistance was extremely appealing. I am simply reporting my experience as one data point for other people considering buying them.


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

EAJN said:


> For whatever it is worth, I gave up on the Padornes as an expensive failed experiment (too narrow, don't hold air well, discouraged by someone from Maxxis claiming that the tires are damaged from routine mounting) and mounted a new set of GP4000S tires on the Tricon wheels. The Padrones measured just over 21MM on these wheels, the GP4000S tires measure 23MM on the nose.


EAJN, I believe you misunderstood me. I did not claim you damaged your tires during "routine mounting" or routine dismounting. I simply suggested at the possiblility of damage from excessive use of force with the tire lever. I then suggested you dunk the tire to see exactly where the leak is coming from. There are also other possible sources of air leakage. For example, when mounting the tire shown below, a sticker became dislodged from the center channel of the rim, and positioned itself between the bead and the rim, causing a leak. It's also possible that the leak is still originating from your valve stem. I have no experience with the DT Swiss rims and valve stems, but I do know that some others can be problematic, and a very good seal is required to prevent leaks from 100+ psi.

For comparison purposes, here is a Hutchinson Fusion 2 mounted on the same Dura-Ace 7850 rim, inflated for over 72 hours. Measured 6 times at 100 psi (never on the raised lettering on the sidewall), the average was 23.29mm. Pretty close to the Padrone. Unfortunately I do not have a Fusion 3 to reference. In my experience, the tolerance for section width of a road tire is about +/-0.15mm, max.


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## the_tank (Feb 5, 2007)

bholwell said:


> And if you're losing 40 psi overnight, it's likely that either the innerliner or the bead cushion was damaged during the installation or removal of the tire. *Maxxis does not recommend the use of sealant simply because it would be nearly impossible to test every sealant on the market, so take that for what it's worth.*


Always read to the end...


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

EAJN said:


> For whatever it is worth, I gave up on the Padornes as an expensive failed experiment (too narrow, don't hold air well,.


I am sorry if I missed it but did you use sealant?

The reason I ask as I just got a set of Stans Alpha 340s and when I mounted Hutchinson fusion 3's, one of them leaked. I never had a leak on my dura ace rims The shimano tubeless rims lock the bead in place.

I talked with the wheel builder and he said I absolutely have to use sealant with the Alpha 340s, even though they are built for tubeless tires.

This maybe the same case with the rims you were using. Did you ever try one of the Hutchinson tubeless offerings on the same rims to see if you had leaking issues?

Regards,

David


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

I'd imagine that in the near future, we'll hear of several successful and happy customers using this combination. I would argue that losing psi over night shouldn't be a factor in determining quality of a tubeless set up. If it drops 5 psi, you're inflating them before tomorrow's ride. Whether it is 5 psi, or 40 psi, it doesn't matter.
as long as you are not losing 40 psi during an event or while on the road.
I think its awesome that someone from Maxxis is on rbr to comment, provide his professional insight and experiences. Kudos.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

Are you sure you read all the fine print?



bent steel said:


> Just run sealant. Have you really ever returned a tire anyway? I've been running non-tubeless 29er tires for years with sealant and no tubes. A double whammy of non-recommended practices, but I've never had a problem, or expected that the manufacturer would support me if it all went south.
> 
> Maxxis simply seems to be saying that they don't support warranty claims if you run these tires tubeless with sealant. They're not saying that you'll have two headed spawn, *or that Sarah Palin will become President*.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

jhamlin38 said:


> I'd imagine that in the near future, we'll hear of several successful and happy customers using this combination. I would argue that losing psi over night shouldn't be a factor in determining quality of a tubeless set up. If it drops 5 psi, you're inflating them before tomorrow's ride. Whether it is 5 psi, or 40 psi, it doesn't matter.
> as long as you are not losing 40 psi during an event or while on the road.
> I think its awesome that someone from Maxxis is on rbr to comment, provide his professional insight and experiences. Kudos.


If your tire loses 40 psi over a 6-hour period when it's not ridden, how can you have confidence that it won't lose air at a faster rate while being ridden? Over a 3-hour ride that's already a lot of pressure loss ...


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## LeviOlsen (Apr 11, 2011)

So just to back up my Maxxis counterpart i work for Hutchinson and we hear these same complaints often about pressure leakage and tire size. Tubeless tires however have the highest quality control rate of any tire we produce. every roadtubeless tire is gone over by hand in France. We at Hutchinson only recommend our own sealant which is Protect'Air Max and it is the only sealant thus far that has been approved by Shimano Japan for use with their wheels. 
A few things regarding setup and sealing especially on Stan's rims is you have to make sure to use at least two layers of the yellow sealing tape to get a good fit as per their recommendation and from my own experience. Any rim that has a different internal width is going to yield a slightly different width to the actual tire when inflated. Our Fusion3 on a Shimano 7850 wheel measures out at just over 23mm all the way around the tire. much the same as the Fusion2 did. if you want a wider tire we offer our Intensive which is a 25mm tire designed for longer distance and higher durability. Not to highjack this thread but everything that is a complaint in the thread we have found to be relative to all tubeless road tires not just Hutchinson or Maxxis.


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## gsorvino (Jan 16, 2011)

LeviOlsen said:


> So just to back up my Maxxis counterpart i work for Hutchinson and we hear these same complaints often about pressure leakage and tire size. Tubeless tires however have the highest quality control rate of any tire we produce. every roadtubeless tire is gone over by hand in France. We at Hutchinson only recommend our own sealant which is Protect'Air Max and it is the only sealant thus far that has been approved by Shimano Japan for use with their wheels.
> A few things regarding setup and sealing especially on Stan's rims is you have to make sure to use at least two layers of the yellow sealing tape to get a good fit as per their recommendation and from my own experience. Any rim that has a different internal width is going to yield a slightly different width to the actual tire when inflated. Our Fusion3 on a Shimano 7850 wheel measures out at just over 23mm all the way around the tire. much the same as the Fusion2 did. if you want a wider tire we offer our Intensive which is a 25mm tire designed for longer distance and higher durability. Not to highjack this thread but everything that is a complaint in the thread we have found to be relative to all tubeless road tires not just Hutchinson or Maxxis.


Not trying to be smart a_ _ but the Intensive tires I have mounted on Fulcrum 1 2 ways measure 23MM not 25 as advertised. I have over 200 miles on them and inflated them to 105 PSI and still 23MM using a digital mic. 

You may want to ask about that little issue. Yes, they lose air pressure 10 to 15 psi but not a problem as I always check every ride regardless even with tubed tires.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

LeviOlsen said:


> So just to back up my Maxxis counterpart i work for Hutchinson and we hear these same complaints often about pressure leakage and tire size. Tubeless tires however have the highest quality control rate of any tire we produce. every roadtubeless tire is gone over by hand in France. We at Hutchinson only recommend our own sealant which is Protect'Air Max and it is the only sealant thus far that has been approved by Shimano Japan for use with their wheels.
> 
> snip


It will be great for you guys to actually write a *useful manual*, a set of instructions and troubleshooting tips, for users of tubeless. I have not been able to find one. I learned a lot from reading the various threads on this forum, but surely Hutchinson sees the benefit of putting to rest all the issues about difficult of mounting, which sealants are good and which ones eat the tires and/or rims, how to deal with consistent leakage, etc. 

The little cardboard thing that comes with with sealants (I use Fast'Air) is more difficult to read than mounting a tubed tire by hand. 

Make a YouTube video or two, like Campagnolo has, and add in helpful troubleshooting tips.


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## tmunk (Jun 6, 2011)

LeviOlsen said:


> We at Hutchinson only recommend our own sealant which is Protect'Air Max and it is the only sealant thus far that has been approved by Shimano Japan for use with their wheels.


Since when? The documentation that came with my Shimano 7850 C24's say to not use sealant because of corrosion issues. Is that not the case any longer?

Is this documented on Shimano's website anywhere?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Now I feel a little better sticking with tubes and my GP4000s...


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

tmunk said:


> Since when? The documentation that came with my Shimano 7850 C24's say to not use sealant because of corrosion issues. Is that not the case any longer?
> 
> Is this documented on Shimano's website anywhere?


Hey Caffee Latex shill, give it rest.


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## Roj899 (Jul 22, 2008)

My personal experience with the padrones this week has been very positive.
Mounting was easy, thoough i admit i used the tyre lever for a the last bit i'm sure in capable hands levers woudnt be necessary.
Using soapy water i was only able to get the beads to seal by using an air compressor, similar to my previous experience with tubeless.
I blame this not on the tyre but the rim - the dura ace CL50 is not a tubeless specific rim and had to be modified using Stans kit.
I do run stan's sealant with the padrones. Without sealanrt I would lose 20-40psi between rides. With sealant virtually no loss of psi.

The ride quality is what has to be felt to be appreciated. Not soft or mushy. But crisp yet supple. Confidence around corners - again has to be felt to be belived.

I often swab ny wheels with friends who have 10-speed trivetrains to let them try out the wheels/tyres and their reactions are always the same - tubeless padrones really are so different.
Haven't seen any other riders in Brisbane wearing these yet.
I can't report on longevity as i've only had these a week.
My other road bikes are fitted with atoms and fusion2 - but all my steed is going to be converted to padrone.
Cheers.


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## dpeka (Aug 8, 2009)

I use Shamal 2-way fit with Hutchinson Fusion 3. Installation was easy, they inflated just fine with a plain floor pump, and hold air very well (I top up one or twice a week). In about one year, I had one flat due to a huge nail puncturing the tire and balsting through the sidewall. Even with that damage, I put in a tube and made the 15 miles back home just fine. Compared to my other bikes, tubeless rides a lot better.
I am not sure why some people are having issues with Tubeless - maybe because the majority arent using tubeless rims? 
I plan to try the Maxxis Padrone next.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

I too would love to see this "approval" from Shimano re the Protect Air Max. Have been using Stans for over 2 years now with the WH-7850-SL's with no issue.

I started with the Fusion 2's, and swapped to the Intensives and have been using them for a while now. Have a spare set of Fusion 3's for wehen this set of intensives finally wear out.

My question : If I can get the Hutchinson road tubeless tyres for about A$55 delivered ea, why would I pay almost double for the Maxxis Padrone ? Are they any better ?


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

dpeka said:


> I am not sure why some people are having issues with Tubeless - maybe because the majority arent using tubeless rims?


It's because they don't take the time to learn that Road Tubeless is different, and has to be treated differently than regular clinchers. They don't bother to practice fixing flats in the garage instead of under duress out on the road. It's just plain ignorance. 

Tubeless-specific rims aren't at all necessary; I've converted five different kinds of regular rims with Stan's tape and put thousands of kilometers on them.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

I've been running Padrones for about two months now, coming off of Conti GP4000s, and have to say I am extremely happy with them! I did have a little trouble getting them to seat the first time, but that was primarily due to a lack of experience and proper technique. Since then I've had them off and on just to make sure I can do it on the road and to add some Stan's Sealant and have had no problems or issues getting them to seat quickly and easily with a floor pump. I am very passionate about descending and the Padrones give me even more confidence than the already good GP4000s did!

BTW, I have Ultegra WH6700 wheels.


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## MWT (Nov 12, 2002)

Yamabushi said:


> I've been running Padrones for about two months now, coming off of Conti GP4000s, and have to say I am extremely happy with them! I did have a little trouble getting them to seat the first time, but that was primarily due to a lack of experience and proper technique. Since then I've had them off and on just to make sure I can do it on the road and to add some Stan's Sealant and have had no problems or issues getting them to seat quickly and easily with a floor pump. I am very passionate about descending and the Padrones give me even more confidence than the already good GP4000s did!
> 
> BTW, I have Ultegra WH6700 wheels.


How difficult where the Padrones to mount? I've found the Fusion 3s to be significantly harder to mount (not inflate) than the Fusion 2s.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Yamabushi said:


> ....Since then I've had them off and on just to make sure I can do it on the road and to add some Stan's Sealant ....


Why not use valve stems with removable cores so you don't even have to unseat the tyre ?


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

MWT said:


> How difficult where the Padrones to mount?


These are the first tubeless that I've ever mounted so I can't compare to any other tubeless tire. That being said, while it wasn't the easiest thing in the world the first time, it wasn't that challenging. Subsequent mountings have been much easier (part improved technique, and part more pliable tire). I would say that now it isn't that much more difficult than well ridden GP4000s.

As for MichaelB's question, I just wanted to stick to Shimano original parts for my first tubeless effort . I wouldn't think that it was significantly more labor intensive than the alternative.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

dpeka said:


> I use Shamal 2-way fit with Hutchinson Fusion 3. Installation was easy, they inflated just fine with a plain floor pump, and hold air very well (I top up one or twice a week). In about one year, I had one flat due to a huge nail puncturing the tire and balsting through the sidewall. Even with that damage, I put in a tube and made the 15 miles back home just fine. Compared to my other bikes, tubeless rides a lot better.
> I am not sure why some people are having issues with Tubeless - maybe because the majority arent using tubeless rims?
> I plan to try the Maxxis Padrone next.


Having a good floor pump is key. I struggled a bit using a cheapo generic floor pump, but now with the much nicer Joe Blow II installation is much easier. With the cheapo generic pump, I had to apply a lot of soapy water, and to "massage" the beads to seat properly. With the Joe Blow the tyre just POPs into position, with no air leakage.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Yamabushi said:


> As for MichaelB's question, I just wanted to stick to Shimano original parts for my first tubeless effort . I wouldn't think that it was significantly more labor intensive than the alternative.


The first time you top up the sealant, you'll realise how much easier (and quicker) it is.

I've done it, and never looked back.


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## 20854 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Padrone pressure loss*

My tubeless tires lose 60 lbs. every night


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## 20854 (Mar 12, 2011)

Knave the same problem. There must be design issue, installation problem, or rim problem.


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

There is definitely no way that you should be loosing that much air every night. It's most likely that you either don't have the tires seated properly (maybe some debris along the bead) or you have defective tires. I loose less than 10lbs of air in a week's time with my Padrones, Ultegra WH-6700's and Stan's sealant.

BTW MichaelB, who makes valves with removable cores that are compatible with my WH-6700's?


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## Sessionz (May 24, 2011)

The fact that people use tubeless setups without sealant is kind of boggling to me. One of the greatest benefits is to be able to use sealant, and having holes plug themselves. Roadies are doing it wrong I guess.


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## 20854 (Mar 12, 2011)

Shimano does not recommend alkaline sealants (I think that means any) for tubeless carbon road wheels. I had problems with the Padrone--side wall leaked (50 lbs. per 24 hours). I exchanged the Padrone for a Hutchinson Fusion 3. I am very pleased with the tire. It handles well and does not lose more than 10 lbs. per 24 hours. Success!


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Yamabushi said:


> BTW MichaelB, who makes valves with removable cores that are compatible with my WH-6700's?


I got the Effetto Caffe valves from Wiggle, or you can get them from Chain Reaction . The only thing I did was to use that small valve stem collars from the Shimano tubeless valves (particularly for the rear offset one).

No issues so far after 9+ months

Here is the link to them both


Wiggle | Effetto Caffe Tubeless Valves MTB Tubeless Tyres


Effetto Caffe Tubeless Valves inc Valve Key | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com


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## Yamabushi (Sep 30, 2008)

I don't feel a pressing need, but I appreciate the info. I'll take a look. Cheers mate!


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## pyewacket (Jul 15, 2009)

Sessionz said:


> The fact that people use tubeless setups without sealant is kind of boggling to me. One of the greatest benefits is to be able to use sealant, and having holes plug themselves. Roadies are doing it wrong I guess.


With MTB tires at 25 psi the holes are plugged by the sealant. With a road tire at 100 psi there is too much pressure and the sealant sprays everywhere until the pressure drops enough for the sealant to work. Then you get to spend the afternoon cleaning latex off your bike. The sealant is really only useful to ensure you have a proper seal when mounting, but if you get it right you don't really need it.

I've had mixed results with the tubeless setup over the last two years -- have D-A tubeless wheels and Hutch Fusion 3 tires. The D-A wheels are really nice, but I've had problems with the Fusion tires leaking in weird spots like through where the tire was embossed with industry codes (thanks for the non-reply to my email Hutchinson) -- it wasn't a mounting issue because they held air better than my clinchers for 2 or 3 weeks _then _started to leak. I'm fed up with the Hutchinson tires now -- twice I've had to replace tires after a handful of rides -- it's just too expensive (and a PITA). 

The ride quality is really what people say it is, though I've never used standard clinchers on my D-A wheels, but I do have 3 other sets of wheels with Pro3s mounted.

Fore newbies, the key to mounting is a lot of really soapy water. An air compressor is handy, but I've had to resort to it only once. It is definitely trickier than a tube/clincher. And use the round tire levers, not the square ones.

I've been on the advocate side for road tubeless, but I have to say I'm looking for a different tire _not _made by Hutchinson -- of 6 tires 3 have been defective (IMHO anyway). Or I might just give up and go back to the Pro3.


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## trdcarmel (May 17, 2004)

Read the threads, very interesting, but have a different problem. I have Shamal 2-ways with Hutchinson 2 tires. Hit a rock descending in the mountains which caused tire to unseat from rim. No way to put enough air in with C02 and mini-pump to get tire to re-seat. Then unscrewed valve and put in tube. The channel in the rim is so narrow that it is difficult to get tube in without pinching it and causing a flat. After flatting 2 tubes, and hitching a ride home, tried this in garage at home (good suggestion) later, and still had problems. Went over to buddy who is a good wrench, and he had problems getting a tube inside the channel without pinching it. Is it the tire, the tube, the wheel, or me?


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## pmt (Aug 4, 2009)

trdcarmel said:


> The channel in the rim is so narrow that it is difficult to get tube in without pinching it and causing a flat. After flatting 2 tubes, and hitching a ride home, tried this in garage at home (good suggestion) later, and still had problems. Went over to buddy who is a good wrench, and he had problems getting a tube inside the channel without pinching it. Is it the tire, the tube, the wheel, or me?


Use super-skinny tubes, like 18c if you can find them. There's a lot less rubber to pinch.


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## EbinAZ (Oct 31, 2011)

I converted an old Rolf Vector Pro front and a Neuvation R28 rear and mounted Fusion 3s using a Stan's kit, procedure was as advertised, the video was helpful. The Rolf gave a bit of trouble, make sure you pull the rim tape as tight as possible as Stan does in the video. I did not initially and this caused excessive leaking, which is evidenced by the air bubbles coming out of the rim cavity drain holes. I have 6 months and about 1500 miles logged and have been happy, the ride is great. The durability is acceptable, although the rear needed a patch over a hole too large for the sealant. There have been numerous minor punctures but the sealant worked well. For those concerned with durability, especially larger riders, you might try the Intensive, at least on the rear.
I also have a set of DT Swiss Tricons with Atoms which I use for racing, very soft compound and narrow but great fun to ride. Doubt they will last for thousands of miles though, and be careful mounting them as the rubber is soft.
I will also try the Padrone, just to give some love to Maxxis if nothing else, I am happy somebody is trying to give us tubeless weirdos another option.
Regarding sealant, where I ride going without is not an option, too many stickers, glass, rocks, and Harley parts on the road. But the corrosion issue is valid, our rims are generally aluminum and can be sensitive to various chemicals, similar to aircraft aluminum. My procedure, and please comment if you have a better idea, is when it is time to add sealant I remove the tire and clean the inside of the tire and the rim thoroughly. In particular I make sure the valve stem hole is spotless, as this seems to be the most likely spot for corrosion to start. 
Thanks for all the info, what did we do before the internet?


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## dougrocky123 (Apr 12, 2006)

*I gave up*

While I really liked the ride of tubeless road tires I switched my wheels back to tubed. The leakdown time, sealent corrosion, and mounting problems were too much. Put on Vittoria Corsa tires and haven't had to air up in three weeks, as opposed to three days with the Hutches.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

Just went to rotate the tyres prior to a sportive ride this weekend and noticed that there were several patches of corrosion starting (WH-7850 wheelset), after abiout 2 years with Stans 

So currently not 100% sure what to do. Have left tyres off, and will have a better go at cleaning up this weekend and go from there.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

dougrocky123 said:


> Put on Vittoria Corsa tires and haven't had to air up in three weeks, as opposed to three days with the Hutches.


Seriously? Damn, talk about lazy, It takes like 30 seconds to put air in my tires. I check tire pressure on every bike before every ride as it's the most important aspect on how a bike rides.


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## Dr_John (Oct 11, 2005)

> The fact that people use tubeless setups without sealant is kind of boggling to me. One of the greatest benefits is to be able to use sealant, and having holes plug themselves. Roadies are doing it wrong I guess.


I don't see the point - at all. When I started with road tubeless I was using sealant. After a few punctures that were too big to seal, and dealing with the lovely goo as I tubed up, I stopped using it. I don't want to be gliding down a hill at 45 mph wondering if the holes have been plugged adequately (I had on unplug, fortunately at a manageable speed), so I prefer to tube up and continue my ride as usual.


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## EbinAZ (Oct 31, 2011)

Interesting, that is good info. After cleaning I am tempted to try a little inhibitor, we use LPS 2 in aircraft apps, where we are very corrosion sensitive. 

Maybe spray a little on a rag and wipe the rim, just a film without making it oily, obviously the tire bead needs to grip the rim edge. Where were the corrosion patches? Down in the rim bed or on the sidewalls? 

Of course the question remains as to the amount of effort and expense, not to mention uncertainty, you are willing to accept to run tubeless, but considering the ride quality I still like "poor man's tubular". But it is strictly personal preference. Regarding inflation, with tubes I generally need to pump up every other ride, a tube will leak (or more correctly seep, as the tube is slightly permeable when filled with air) about 5psi per day as a rough estimate.


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## aaric (Mar 10, 2011)

MichaelB said:


> Just went to rotate the tyres prior to a sportive ride this weekend and noticed that there were several patches of corrosion starting (WH-7850 wheelset), after abiout 2 years with Stans
> 
> So currently not 100% sure what to do. Have left tyres off, and will have a better go at cleaning up this weekend and go from there.


Rumor has it that the corrosion issues with older stan's were due to its ammonia base, and the newer, non-ammonia formulation doesn't corrode. You can smell the ammonia in the older stuff pretty easily.

You might just try cleaning up the corrosion, and switching to the newer formulation.


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

aaric said:


> Rumor has it that the corrosion issues with older stan's were due to its ammonia base, and the newer, non-ammonia formulation doesn't corrode. You can smell the ammonia in the older stuff pretty easily.
> 
> You might just try cleaning up the corrosion, and switching to the newer formulation.


Plan is to give the rims a good clean, and then try and get some chem conversion coating to protect the rims, and then go from there.

The packaging for the Stans looks the same (recently bought some), is there a way of identifying the new stuff apart from the smell (which should be obvious) ?


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## bholwell (Jan 22, 2008)

aaric said:


> Rumor has it that the corrosion issues with older stan's were due to its ammonia base, and the newer, non-ammonia formulation doesn't corrode. You can smell the ammonia in the older stuff pretty easily.
> 
> You might just try cleaning up the corrosion, and switching to the newer formulation.


Not entirely correct. I have a bottle of the newer Stan's sealant, with the "Eco-Friendly" label. On the label it says

"- Contains natural latex
- Non-Hazardous
- Non-Corrosive
- Non-toxic"

Since it contains natural latex, it must contain ammonia to keep the latex in solution. I've noticed that the sealant also has a strong ammonia smell. They may have reduced the amount of ammonia in the formula, but I'm not sure that they have changed anything.

The only ammonia-free sealant I am aware of is Caffe Latex. This sealant tends to clog valve cores, though, and doesn't seem to seal puntures as well.

I have heard that Slime Pro is a less corrosive alternative that still performs well.


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## (807) Recordings (Nov 23, 2011)

Thought I would add in with my experience. 
Tires Hutchinson Intensive
Rims Stan's ZTR Crest 29er, laced to Chris Kings.

So I wanted a decent commute and training bike and got a pair of wheel made up for my Cannondale Bad Boy, disc. 700c. Went with the Kings because of good past experience and also the Crest 29 rims. 32 holes front and back. Was using for tires before the Kojaks, Schwable Stelvio, and finally (also now) Ultremo DD. 

New tires are made so I got the Hutchinson Intensives. First time we got them up on the rims was a real labour. They went on and we where extra careful not to ruin them with tire irons, etc. They sealed with no sealant, no problemo right off the floor pump. However here is the interesting part. Noticed straight off the bat there was a bulge in both the front and back. We loaded in the sealant also Stan's new type. Road them for the first 200-300K and then the first leak happened. Total blow out through the spoke hole well sitting in the sun drinking a beer on the river. Turns out we made the error of not double taping the rims. Very well the wheels needed to be trued again as they where new.

So get the wheels back and all seems to be working well. Very light rides, a few training runs on clean surfaces but my new nipples arrive for my wheels. Ya the first round was wrong colour and I wanted all back. When the new wheels where rebuild we went to put the tires back on but noticed lots of large slices/cuts around the actual rim edge. Mosdef nothing from the rides. Sent the tires back as defective.

Hutchinson seems to refund them but good luck trying to find another pair anywhere in Europe. They also don't take emails so I am not sure what the next tires will be.

On the rim they do come in at a 25mm, or if slightly larger so the rim I suspect is a factor.
I might try the Fusion 3 next but am a bit worried of the lasting?

The ride I loved when it worked but is a bit soft when standing on hill climbs. Grip was awesome!


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## MichaelB (Feb 28, 2010)

About to make up a new set of wheels for my Kona Honky Inc all-weather bike. Going to use Stand Alpha 340 rims, Laser spokes (32h 3x), and Rotaz hubs.

Not 100% sure whether to return to the Intensives (have a pair of these + Fusion 3's), or stick with the Schwalbe Marathon Supremes (28c).

The bike is running disc/disc too.


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