# Look 595 questions - Chas?



## StillKeen

I have purchased an ex-demo Look 595 from 2008. It has done a claimed 50 miles and is my size.

1) the seat tube has been massively cut back. Now perhaps he needed to for some customer, but its now only suitable to someone with short legs and a long torso. I believe it's rideable by me in the short term, but I'll get a RePost once I can find a European/UK dealer who has them at a good price ... or even has them full stop.

1a) Anyone know a European dealer who might have the Repost well priced?

2) I guess the fitter changed the stem a few times in 50 miles, and doesnt understand torque wrenches. There is a compression mark in the top of the fork where the stem clamped on. It's to the point where I think you'd say it is a crack about 10mm down the steerer. Ideally I'd like to get a new fork to fix this and also allow me to run another spacer of two.

2a) Anyone know a European dealer where I can buy a new HSC6 fork for reasonable money?

3) I cannot work out for sure where the four spacer rings for the headset go. The frame arrived without the fork in, so I had to guess.

3a) Anyone know where they go? Ontop the split ring seems to work.

3b) Anyone know what model FSA headset this is?

3c) Can I get a replacement for the FSA carbon top spacer that is not as tall? If I got that, removed the Look spacer too, then I could cut off the damaged top off the fork and run the original fork without any issues. However I'd probably need to run a stem that rises 20mm to make back the lost steerer ... however, this would be a much cheaper solution than a new fork, and once I've confirmed the bike fits and suits me, I'd be much happier spending more money on it.

Those are my questions for now. Once I've got some miles on the bike, then I'll be back to work out if I should go Red, Record or DA ... at the moment I've got secondhand DA7800 90% setup .. the bike feels very light so far ... and still has a good 600 grams to lose with new wheels, bar etc.

Thanks


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## pennstater

Look at this for help with headset assembly. 
It's for a 585 but the parts may be the same.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=63783&highlight=headset


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## StillKeen

Thanks, I should have found that.

I think I've got it all correct then.

Thanks,

-Chris


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## C-40

*info...*

I hope that frame was real cheap with a damaged fork and overly short seat mast.

The thin spacers go right where you have them - on top of the top bearing race. They are used to adjust the clearance between the headset top section and the head tube, so it does not rub on the head tube.

You can get an FSA headset with an 8mm top section instead of the 15mm.

That fork can be fixed. I use a permanent glued-in plug on all three of my LOOK forks (to save weight). Two of them have plugs made from epoxy putty and a commom M6 thread insert, most often used for putting threads into wood. A short length of cutoff steerer was used for a mold to pack the putty into. When cured, the plug was glued-in with epoxy paste that is thick enough that it won't run. I've also filled the entire upper 4cm with epoxy resin - makes the the top of the steerer stronger than new.


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## StillKeen

Thanks.

It wasnt that expensive, but had the seller been honest about the condition, I probably wouldnt have purchased. There is no way I could have afforded a new frame, but I think if I was to do it again I'd go lower end and with a full warranty (currenly like the look of the Gary Fisher 2010 roadbikes).

Do you happen to know what headset the 8mm bearing cover would come from? I'm still not sure what model FSA the frame uses. I'm tempted to go ritchey for the upper bearng if I can find a suitable option, as it would then match the bars.

If I do really need the extra length in the steerer then the epoxy top to the steerer sounds interesting, I could do something similar with a longer section of alloy if I can find a good alloy to carbon glue. That could then give me a good 100mm of extra strength. I have access to lathes etc, so no issue sizing it just right.

I will also investigate a modification to the seat rail clam that'd give some extra height, although I suspect the RePost is probably the easiest solution and a good longterm option too.

If the bike is a good fit for my riding style, then I may find a way to get a new frame at a later date. Right now my carbon experience is a 10 mile ride on a friends 2007 Lemond.

Thanks.

-Chris


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## C-40

*IS headset...*

Any brand of IS standard headset will fit. The bearing OD should be 41mm.


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## Amfoto1

Hi, 

I'm new here on the forums, but have some experience with Look and might be able to add a few additional points about your bike build. 

1. Your 595 uses the HSC6 fork, which _is not_ the same as the 585's (as is referenced at the link above and uses an HSC5 SL fork). Mainly, the tapered steerer of the HSC6 on the 595 requires that using a headset with 1-1/8" upper bearing and 1-1/4" lower bearing. It appears you have one already, but if you need a replacement FSA is the most commonly found of this somewhat less common type of headset. One of my current build projects, a 2009 586, also uses the HSC6.

2. The FSA headset "tapered spacer" cap (as seen in your photo) is 15mm tall, if memory serves. You can buy one separately that's 8mm tall from a variety of source, if gaining all of 7mm is enough. You might have trouble finding it in carbon, but hey, black anodized aluminum would be fine, too. It really can be any brand at all. They are pretty standardized. If this part is changed, you might need to vary the number of shims under it to get back to about 1mm of clearance. Yes, it's possible to toss the "Look" logo spacer, to gain still more space. 

However, yes, you'll have to consider if the increasingly radical positioning is okay, and/or might want to search out a replacement handlebar stem to compensate. 

3. Peek inside the head tube of your bike. I think you will find that there are no permanently installed metal "seats" for the sealed bearings (unlike some other models of Look, many of which do have a metal seat for the bearing molded into the head tube). Instead, on 595, 586 and a few others the bearing "seats" are molded of carbon fiber. This is where the two split metal "replaceable" seats come into play. These are mentioned in some of the Look documentation and are necessary to keep the bearings from running directly against the carbon surface, where they would wear quickly. Don't confuse these with the smaller split ring that inserts at the top, to center the top bearing on the steerer. I mention these not because you ask about them, but because they are shown at the other thread referenced above and are often a point of confusion. The 595/586 use two different sizes (to accomadate the two different sizes of bearing races): smaller at the top, larger at the bottom.

4. The idea of permanently bonding something into the steerer is a pretty good one. This might help you avoid cutting the steerer more and getting too radical a position. A cracked steerer like the one you show is usually the result of installing an _aluminum_ handlebar stem that's not specifically designed for use with carbon and/or has not been well deburred, and possibly was over-tightened onto the steerer. I just got a 2007 565 with a similar problem. 

One word of caution about epoxy, though... There are a variety of types. Some set too hard and are brittle. I think most of the "quick set" type fall in this category. A plug of solid epoxy might crack. It's not very strong on it's own, without the carbon fiber cloth matrix inside. Ask around and see if you can find a type that will remain a little flexible. The carbon frame builders often seem to use a type of epoxy that has to be heat cured in an oven for an hour or so at around 130-140F. 

On the other hand, if you _don't_ permanently install a plug in there and instead you have and use the Look expander that came with the bike, there is something else you need to know. The Look are different from all other expanders I've seen. They actually use two different sizes of Allen wrenches to install and tighten them. Under the little rubber plug, they have a smaller sized bolt way down inside that _only_ expands the lower section. Then the larger Allen wrench is used to preload the headset bearings. You have to tighten both of these adequately to pull the assembly down enough and eliminate all play in the bearings. 

You probably already know, if you use the Look (or any other) expander, be certain it's expansion section is well within the clamping area of the handlebar stem, and that's been snugged up a bit too first. Otherwise, you can crack the steerer even further with the expander - from the inside out.

I didn't realize the difference with or _proper installation of _the Look expander until one of their former techs pointed it out to me... , IMO, It's definitely a good design, that almost makes the exorbitantly high price worth it! It's very important, though, to note how it's _properly_ fitted, I can assure you!

5. The reason for the "special" spacer on top of the stem (mentioned in the other post referenced above and in some of Look's documentation) is that it's metal, which the carbon cap of the expander rotates on much better than carbon-to-carbon contact allows.

If using a carbon/carbon wrapped stem or a carbon spacer on top of a stem, then the carbon of the Look expander cap can give you a false sense that it's fastened tightly enough, due to all the additional drag of carbon against carbon. A torque wrench will give an incorrect reading. If using an aluminum handlebar stem instead, the Look (or any other carbon capped expander) can be used directly on it - i.e., without the "special spacer". Just be sure the aluminum stem is well deburred and won't "bite" into the steerer and crack the carbon further. 

6. Something that's important if you go to replace the fork... If you look at the headset now used on the 2010 595 and 586's HSC6 forks you will see it's different. There's info about it on www.lookcycle.com. 

Look has revised the entire assembly with one that is supposedly possible to adjust by hand. I haven't used it, but please note that it cannot be used with the older HSC6 forks, which have a smooth steerer tube top to bottom. The newer ones, for use with this new type of head set, have a molded in groove to accommodate a snap ring. Further, it_ is not _possible to cut that snap ring groove into older forks, since that would compromise the integrity of the carbon in a very important place. 

So, if you get a replacement HSC6 fork just be sure which type... I.e., if it has the groove in it, you'll need the new type of headset too. On the other hand, if it's the original design, you can use your current headset. Oh, and the new type of headset has an somewhat tall cap on top, which appears to be a proprietary Look item. 

7. As to the seat post issue. There are several different ePost configurations, besides the one that came with your bike or the RePost option.

First, do you have the extra spacers that came with the bike originally? You can raise the seat post quite a bit with those (3.5cm, I think), just watch the minimum clamping mark on the post. 

Second, some ePosts use elastomers, while others don't. There might be some height differences between those. 

Also, there are ePosts made for other Look bikes that might be a little longer... One (or both?) of the mountain bike frames uses an ePost. One or the other of the TT/Tri frames uses a different post. These will all fit the seat tube of your bike. It so happens I use an R5 (TT/Tri "reversible") on my 586, which has a different, slightly taller seat clamping method. But, I have the opposite problem from you. My seat post is slightly too tall for me so I have flip-flopped the seat mount and trimmed down an elastomer rather than re-cut the frame (in case I want to sell it some day) The R5 is slightly lighter than the original ePost, too. You can sometimes pick up ePosts really cheap from private parties on auction sites. Dealers tend to charge a small fortune for them. 

Finally, it might be possible to have an ePost extended or even modified to allow a standard 27 or 31mm most to be attached to it. It's really just a simple hollow tube of unique shape, so someone else's cutoff might be possible to use to extend the tube on your bike. The other alternative, adapting it to fit a more standard stem, would be more of a custom job. RR Velo/Calfee Design in California does a lot of carbon fiber repair and manufacture. However, that would surely add a lot of weight and I'm sure wouldn't be cheap.

I _definitely_ don't recommend you attempt to bond aluminum to carbon either, whether at the steerer or the seat post. This is too often a point of failure and would be a real problem. I think it would be safer to epoxy some additional carbon on a steerer tube using proper epoxy and an added internal lug. But even that would be quite iffy, IMO. I don't think the pros who do carbon repair will touch a bike fork in any way. They simply recommend complete replacement. The seat tube is almost as critical and has to endure nearly as much stress.

Keep us posted!


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## StillKeen

Amfoto1 said:


> Hi,
> ...
> Keep us posted!


Thanks,

I've been busy with work the past week, but hopefully next weekend I'll have a chance to do more.

I will remove the fork and make sure the whole assembly is correct there.

For seat height, I think a RePost is probably my chosen method, I'd just like to buy in Europe ... and hopefully a little under $US320.

For the fork, I did realise that the new system was different. It sounds as if I can get the new fork and headset, or old fork and current headset. It'll all come down to cost, but as of yet I cannot find any place that sells them.

The underside of the FSA 15mm cap is not flat (from memory), and my concern was that a different cap would not have the right profile, and not contact onto the other headset parts correctly. It'd be easy enough to tell if I had two in my hand, but as I'll end up ordering it online I'll never know. If I could confirm the FSA headset model number, then I could just order a whole headset with the 8mm spacer. When I looked into headsets a while back, there were different angles and all sorts to specify ... nothing like good old (now) ahead systems.

The Look expander appears to be a rebadged FSA, as I've had a few FSA ones before (always on alloy forks though). Compared to Hope and Weyless versions I've tried, the FSA/Look expander is a far superior.

I am concerned about the final position I get on the bike, and that'll probably be the biggest driver to a new fork. Also, if the ride is a good fit for me, then that'll also move me towards the new fork, as it'll be a bike I want to keep longterm

Thanks.

-Chris

PS I saw a picture of how long the steerer and seatpost were when new ... the guy cut a lot off. I'd definitely be cutting the minimum off I needed ... whats the weight penalty for an extra 30mm or post and steerer?


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## Amfoto1

Hi again,

Well, the RePost isn't too pricey then....

I took the R5 post off the bike and removed the seat from it, so I could compare it with the original ePost that came with this particular 586... The R5 (with the seat mounting clips in the normal position, not flipped upside down as I am using it) places the seat rail about 1cm higher than the ePost. The potential for spacers is the same on both posts... So all in all, you can add about 4.5cm height before running into the minimum insertion line on the posts. Enough?

I don't really know if there is enough difference between saddles to gain any additional height. A quick measurement of three I've got right here close at hand (a "no-name", a Fizik, and a San Marco). I don't see any significant difference in height of the seat above their rails. 

So, I guess if 3.5cm from the available spacers isn't quite enough, and another 1cm from swapping to a different post _ were_ enough additional height for you, it might be worth searching out an R5 post (I got it cheap off eBay, about $50 US with shipping, if I recall correctly... unused, complete with all the spacers and elastomers, and still in its orig. box). Oh, and the R5 is a smidgen lighter than the ePost Ti, too. ;-) 

But, if you need more height than that 4 or 4.5cm, the RePost might be the only solution.

Just about any Look dealer (who you'll probably need to see for the RePost anyway) should be able to order a fork for you, if that's what you decide to do. Shouldn't be a problem getting it in Europe, either, since Look are made in France. Be sitting down when they quote you the price, though. I haven't found any online Look parts dealers... Frame sets and built up bikes, yes... Some of the more common accessories, too... But, specific parts, very few. 

Before you spend the money on a new fork, though, take another look at the one you've got. The photo shows damage on the outside, but feel inside the steerer tube, too, to see if there really is a crack all the way through it or not. It might be that the sharp edges of an aluminum stem just "plowed up" some of the surface of the steerer tube, which might not be too big a deal. It's not bad enough on the bike I've got with the same problem that I'm going to bother replacing the fork (but that particular bike uses an HSC5 and I happen to have a spare... Plus I've got another stem on order which should allow me to cut off the damaged area, if I wish). 

Yeah, it's not very pretty, but I'll stack a couple inches worth of spacers on top of a stem if necessary, until I'm sure I like the fit and am ready to "commit", to avoid accidentally over-cutting a steerer! On the other hand, some folks spend good money to change out their chain ring and bottle cage mounting bolts for titanium, to save a few grams! 

As to the tapered spacer/cap, not something I've compared closely, but seems to me that they are generally similar enough on the underside that it's just a matter of swapping out some shims to get the right clearance. A local shop might have more shims, if needed. 

I am pretty certain the FSA headset for the 595/586 and HSC6 is the CF-33, which you can see at http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?taxid=114&layout=product. I don't know whether or not it's got a different model designation in Europe. Note that it comes with a fork crown race which you don't use at all on these particular bikes. It also comes with the tapered spacer... maybe the 8mm? I have looked at Cane Creek and a couple other places to see if anyone else is selling anything similar... I'm sure someone does... just haven't look too hard and had no luck so far. I also haven't found _any_ source for the two split ring bearing seats used in there! They might be Look-specific items.

I'll have to check out the FSA expander... Someone I know paid $25 to replace the Look carbon top cap alone, not even the entire expander! I don't really care if it says "FSA" instead... My bikes already have enough Look logos on them! One of the HSC5 _forks_ alone has seven logos on it! (If you count the small one inside, near the crown.) 

Cheers!

Alan


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## Amfoto1

I came across a couple UK/Euro sources for Re-Post.... Prices seem a little more reasonable than in the U.S.

http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=99&idproduct=29713

http://marreybikes.com/shop/look-repost-seatpost-2010-p-640.html?osCsid=3079b50ndju497dr75c7q9mim0


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## StillKeen

Thanks, those are great. I note that one of them has

''Loss of comfort comparing to E Post system The cyclist loose the COMFORT function brought by the E POST concept thanks to the elastomers. Thus LOOK only advises the use of the REPOST in case of absolute necessity.''

I'm been busy recently, but hopefully this weekend I'll be able to get out for a ride and confirm if I need one or not.


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## Amfoto1

> ''Loss of comfort comparing to E Post system The cyclist loose the COMFORT function brought by the E POST concept thanks to the elastomers. Thus LOOK only advises the use of the REPOST in case of absolute necessity.''


I'm not surprised Look recommends that. They'd much prefer you drop a couple thousand on a nice, new, uncut frame instead! 

So - just looking at the pictures of it online - it appears the RePost doesn't have any provision for the elastomers like those used on the ePost. That makes some sense, since the RePost allows full adjustment and is essentially just a standard seat post, except that it's specifically made to fit the unique aero design of the 595/586 (and a few other) seat tube. It appears to come with a special clamp, too. 

Anyway, I suppose the "loss of comfort" would be down to the lack of elastomers. That being the case, I guess you might say that virtually every other bike on the road lacks comfort out of "absolute necessity".

Heck, early models of Look ePost lacked the elastomers, too. I've got one. It only uses the two elastomers for expansion down inside the seat tube, to hold the post in place. None can be fitted on top... to provide "comfort". 

If needed with the RePost (or any other uncomfortable bike), a good Ti or carbon-railed seat might help absorb some of the road shocks! And - hey! - I see they make cycling shorts with padding in them now, too.


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