# Guerciotti with Columbus Brain tubing ID help



## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

I've purchased a blue Guerciotti frame and fork, NOS, that has Columbus Brain tubing. I'm wondering what years this frameset was made?

Also, I'm hoping to put mostly period correct Campagnolo Chorus components on it (ca 1989). Would it be sacrilege to use a similar vintage Shimano 600 Ultegra headset and Suntour GPX shifters? The shifters move the first generation Indexed Chorus rear derailleur over a 5mm spaced cassette beautifully (7-speed at 5mm or 8-speed at 4.8mm) and I bought the headset many years ago but never used it. The saddle will be a matching blue Fizik Aliante that I already have.

Thanks in advance!


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## DannyBoy (Feb 19, 2004)

*Can you post pix..........*

Can't answer your main query, but it sounds like a great bike. Your choice of components is fine, unless you can source full campy of course!!

We need pix, even pre build, STAT!:thumbsup:


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

DannyBoy said:


> Can't answer your main query, but it sounds like a great bike. Your choice of components is fine, unless you can source full campy of course!!
> 
> We need pix, even pre build, STAT!:thumbsup:


Here is a picture from the eBay auction.

The frame itself is on its way to San Francisco from New York via FedEx ground so it will get here in about a week.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

thought about buying that one myself. please post a ride report when you get a chance. cool chrome fork.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

I was just getting ready to post a thread about those Guerciotti frames for sale on eBay. Ital-Tecno.com has a bunch of them listed on eBay in various sizes, some lugged steel and some brazed. Prices range from $300-400, Buy-It-Now. If I needed a frame, I would snap one of them up. Some of them have horizontal rear dropouts, so could be good for SS/fixes as well. Here's a link to one auction. This particular frame is used, but others for sale are new. Click the link for other auctions by same seller to see other frames.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180108467200&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNARL:US:112


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

they have a 58 tsx that is going to get me in serious trouble with big mamma. I'd like to snag it and find an old "wound up" fork.
Geurciotti is the first bicycle review, from the first Bicycle magazine that I read back in 1986. I'll never forget it, and i'm sure as heck that you'll love it as much as anything you've ever ridden.
italian steel is the best.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2007)

I did buy one.

It arrived last week and I built it up on Saturday and rode it Sunday.

I love it, a beautiful ride. remarkably light and possibly the smoothest riding bike I have ever been on. An absolute dream.

Here is a link to the thread on my new one ...

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=92467

Love it.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

TMB, nice!

The frame is supposed to be here tomorrow, according to FedEx.com. The Atala (parts donor) is getting nervous!

This is what I plan on building this with:
Cinelli Mod 64-44 handlebars and 1A stem
Shimano 600 Ultegra headset
Campagnolo Chorus brake levers with white hoods and monoplanar calipers
Early Chorus rear derailleur (adjustable parallelogram) and Chorus front derailleur
Either Chorus shifters (in friction mode) or Suntour GPX shifters (works great with the rear derailleur in index mode)
Campagnolo Centaur CT double crankset (blue chainring bolts) and Centaur bottom bracket
Look Keo Classic pedals
Silver Titec seatpost (coming in the mail) and Fizik Aliante blue saddle
Cane Creek Volos Team Issue wheels (with blueish titanium spokes) and some old tires
Shimano 8-speed 12-25 cluster

I have almost everything listed above installed on an old Atala and still need to buy handlebar tape (Cinelli) but I'm undecided on the color. I can go with blue or white. I'm leaning towards blue with white cable housing. I do plan on changing the wheels later on to some Mavic Open Pros laced to silver Campy hubs but that will have to wait until I pay off some bills.

What do you think?


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Get a Chorus headset, old Record 8 speed downtube shifters (will work with 7 speed or 8 speed as long as the spacing is 5mm). Also, try to get a "Turbo" saddle.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

The frame arrived today and, upon initial inspection, I was happy with it. The three tubes in the main triangle are round at the lugs and quickly become ovalized. It looks like the seatpost will need to be shortened a bit so that it does not drop into the ovalized section just two or three inces from the top of the seat tube. Upon closer inspection I found little dents here and there and what seemed like sand in the seatstays. Worse, there are signs of surface rust in the seatstays and bottom bracket. I also found that the seatpost is probably 26.8mm, not 27.2 (a 26.6mm seatpost drops into the seat tube and rattles around while a 27.0mm seatpost won't drop past the cut in the seat tube below the binder bolt). I guess I'll need to buy another seatpost.

The showstopper, though, is the front fork. The steerer is too short. I installed the headset cups and found that I could not install the crown race. I assembled everything just to have it all held together and found that the upper adjustable cup barely threaded on. With the crown race not seated all the way I could see that there was more thread showing above the top of the steerer than was below the crown race. I'll send a message to Ital-Techno in the morning to see what they can do for me. If worst comes to worst I may throw a carbon fork on there and call it a day.


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## JP (Feb 8, 2005)

Squidward said:


> The showstopper, though, is the front fork. The steerer is too short. I installed the headset cups and found that I could not install the crown race. I assembled everything just to have it all held together and found that the upper adjustable cup barely threaded on. With the crown race not seated all the way I could see that there was more thread showing above the top of the steerer than was below the crown race. I'll send a message to Ital-Techno in the morning to see what they can do for me. If worst comes to worst I may throw a carbon fork on there and call it a day.


I'm not tracking. Is it possible that a different headset with a slightly thinner stack height wouldn't work? Post a picture if you can.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

JP said:


> I'm not tracking. Is it possible that a different headset with a slightly thinner stack height wouldn't work? Post a picture if you can.


If I was to install the headset correctly there would be no threads to screw the lock nut on to. The top of the head tube would come up about 1mm short of reaching the top of the upper cup's threads. This is with a headset that has a normal (as far as I know) stack height. If you look at the picture above you will see that there's only about 20mm of steerer tube sticking out above the top of the head tube.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Personally, I would send that frame back. Something doesn't sound right to me.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Sounds like it isn't NOS, just used, and used a lot. Some 80's headsets had extremely short stack heights......bummer
Let them know that the fork is cut too short to work with modern headsets.
The surface rust is from stone dings, chipping the paint.........a well used frame.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2007)

It is also possible that the fork has got mixed up.

He has clearly received a shipment of a number of Guerciotti frames, have him check the forks of those still in house - probably mixed up the fork with another frame.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

The frame is new. The rust is at the vent holes of the seat stays, inside the bottom bracket and visibly up the seat and down tubes as well as the chainstays on the inside. I need to get that spray for preserving the steel tubes of older bikes. Frame Saver?

I've been in contact with the seller and he says that he has 40 forks to choose from so he will get one out to me. I just sent him an email with the head tube length so, hopefully, I will be getting a fork soon.


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

Rust inside the tubes is normal. It's just normal oxidation from steel exposed to air. Make sure you have the frame treated with Frame Saver before you build it up, though, and this will prevent problems down the road.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2007)

Squidward said:


> The frame is new. The rust is at the vent holes of the seat stays, inside the bottom bracket and visibly up the seat and down tubes as well as the chainstays on the inside. I need to get that spray for preserving the steel tubes of older bikes. Frame Saver?
> 
> I've been in contact with the seller and he says that he has 40 forks to choose from so he will get one out to me. I just sent him an email with the head tube length so, hopefully, I will be getting a fork soon.



I figured that was probably what it was - good news.

Let us know when you get it and start building.


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## ciclisto (Nov 8, 2005)

so back to the topic ///what is brain tubing?? newer than sl sp, heavy any info?


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2007)

ciclisto said:


> so back to the topic ///what is brain tubing?? newer than sl sp, heavy any info?


It is one of the columbus steel tubing sets and my recollection is that it spans the late '80's early '90's period.

Lighter than Sl or SLX.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

I bought a can of Frame Saver today and treated the frame as soon as I got home from work. Tomorrow, I'll apply a second coat of the stuff then clean it in preparation of building it up. The top tube is completely sealed at both ends so I cannot treat that but, if it's sealed at both ends, rust should not be a worry as no oxygen gets in to cause rust. The seller (Ital-Tecno) is sending me a replacement fork that should arrive by the end of next week. I'm going to temporarily use a Ritchey Logic headset on the initial build as my budget doesn't allow me to buy the current listing of Campy Chorus headsets listed on eBay. Maybe I should carefully remove the Chorus headset from my Atala and install that here?

This bike will not be rideable this next weekend because of the seatpost situation. I'm looking for a 26.8mm American Classic post to put on this bike and there are none to be found on eBay. My buddy keeps yelling at me about buying cheap stuff just to get a project up and running only to replace it a few weeks later when I find what I was originally looking for. I tend to have a lot of in expensive spare parts laying around as a result.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2007)

I may have a 26.8 Campy post.

'I will check tomorrow.


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## Frank121 (May 14, 2002)

*Seatpost size*

I have had several Columbus Brain tubed frames and all of them were 27.2 seat tubes. Any chance the seattube binder has been over tightened at some point and that a 27.2 would work if the seat tube was fully open and round?


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## Fivethumbs (Jul 26, 2005)

A Brain tubeset consists of double butted Cyclex tubing with seat stays made of standard Chromoly


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## Frank121 (May 14, 2002)

*Brain tech stuff*

https://www3.sympatico.ca/mrgrumpy/randompics/tubes.gif

https://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Brain.htm


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Frank121 said:


> I have had several Columbus Brain tubed frames and all of them were 27.2 seat tubes. Any chance the seattube binder has been over tightened at some point and that a 27.2 would work if the seat tube was fully open and round?


I have a 27.0mm seatpost that I had to just about force into the seat tube past the bottom of the slot. I bought a cheapo 26.8mm seatpost at Performance Bike today to get this build under way and it fits but is a little loose about two inches into the seat tube so I'm thinking that 27.0mm may be it.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Frank121 said:


> https://www3.sympatico.ca/mrgrumpy/randompics/tubes.gif
> 
> https://www.kvanproductions.com/cycling/Brain.htm


Thanks!


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

*Update*

I removed everything from the Atala and moved them over to the Guerciotti, even the fork! I figured out that the seatpost is 27.0 after all. This is because the 26.8 mm seatpost would slip no matter how tight I tightened the binder bolt, to the point where i thought I was going to snap the binder bolt. I swapped the 27.0 in there and forced it into the frame. Turns out that the oxidation inside the tubing prevented the 27.0mm seatpost from entering. After I forced it in the 27.0 seatpost fits just fine.

I installed the Campy Chorus 7-speed shifters that originally came with the Atala and tried to adjust the rear derailleur so that it would shift as nicely as the Suntour GPX shifters do. It'll shift the first six cogs just fine but then I have to click the shifter twice to get it to move onto the seventh cog and the shifter is no longer clicking to get onto the eighth cog (it goes into friction mode after the sixth shift).

I'm still waiting for the front derailleur to arrive as well as a 111mm BB. The Campy Centaur BB that I have is 111mm but English thread and the one Italian thread BB I have is 102mm. EBay to the rescue! NOS 111mm Italian threaded Campy Chorus BB (non-sealed) is on its way.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Picture


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Brain is designed for a 27.2mm seat post. If you have a good shop in your area you might want to have it reamed it out properly (distortion from brazing causes the tube to go out of round thus the need to clean it up some with a reamer).


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## KeithNYC (Mar 17, 2004)

Beautiful, Squidward. Great build!


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Nessism said:


> Brain is designed for a 27.2mm seat post. If you have a good shop in your area you might want to have it reamed it out properly (distortion from brazing causes the tube to go out of round thus the need to clean it up some with a reamer).


In all honesty, I'm begining to doubt that this is, in fact, Brain tubing. The diameter of the tubes are not oversized at all, just ovalized. It's a nice frame, though, so I'm happy with it.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

KeithNYC said:


> Beautiful, Squidward. Great build!


Thanks! It's still a work in progress but I can ride it so I'm enjoying it ahead of schedule. I have a set of 28 hole Mavic Open SUP clincher rims at a buddy's house, a 28 hole front Ultegra hub on its way, and an older silver Cane Creek rear hub downstairs in the garage.

My buddy is suggesting yellow tires to match the Guerciotti decal on the downtube, what do you think?


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Squidward said:


> In all honesty, I'm begining to doubt that this is, in fact, Brain tubing. The diameter of the tubes are not oversized at all, just ovalized. It's a nice frame, though, so I'm happy with it.


Both "standard" size and "oversize" tubesets use the same diameter seat tube - 1-1/8". Common butting is .8 or .9 mm at the bottom bracket and thinned to .6 at the top (thus the need for a 27.2 mm seatpost). To determine if you have OS tubing or not, check the top tube against the seat tube - if they are the same diameter you have OS tubing.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Nope, not oversized. The seatpost is definitely 27.0 as there is no play as the post goes into the frame at all.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Squidward said:


> Nope, not oversized. The seatpost is definitely 27.0 as there is no play as the post goes into the frame at all.


Columbus Brain came in both standard and oversize configurations. In either case the seat tube is the same and takes a 27.2mm seatpost. Could be your frame has distortion at the top of the seat tube due to the brazing process, thus the proper 27.2mm seatpost will not fit, or your frame is not made from Brain (as you suspected in one of your other posts). The need to ream is a very common issue and is a normal part of the build process for many, but not all, builders. "Back in the day" many shops accepted responsibility for "preping" frames before building - facing/chasing/reaming the various holes. Some of the European framebuilders were the worst in this respect thus forcing the selling shop to invest in expensive Campy frame prep tool kits. Now a days most frames are coming out of Asia where they seem to do a more complete job regard prep work, thus many current shops don't even have the tools anymore - and many young mechanics, have never seen a facing/reaming tool.

Back to your frame...if the 27.0 seatpost is working you could just leave well enough alone. Enjoy.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

This is just an update.

As much as I loved this frame the simple truth of the matter was that it was a little too small for me. This frame is a 51cm and the Atala donor was a 53 (which I felt was a bit too big for me). I ended up buying an old Colnago International frame and moved all the parts over to it. I'll be creating a thread over in the Colnago forums for this one.

The old Guerciotti frame is sitting in my closet and it might be turned into a single speed down the road or sold off.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

I ended up building this bike up with a combination of Centaur Century Grey components and Chorus parts. The brake calipers, shifters, and cranks are Centaur Century Grey while the derailleurs are old Chorus. The wheels are hand-made with Ultegra hubs laced to NOS Mavic Open SUP rims. The cassette is a 10-speed Ultegra 12-28. Yes, I mixed and matched Campy with Shimano and it shifts fairly well. Initially, it shifted great, but as the components started to wear the crispness has gone away and now I get an occasional ghost shift but I've tuned it recently so I'll have to see how it works now. It's a combination of pre-2001 rear derailleur combined with a post-2001 shifter that allows it to work.

I took new pictures of the bike earlier today.


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## DannyBoy (Feb 19, 2004)

Nice bike - can't go wrong with Campy. Just get shot of the remaining ShimaNO!


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2009)

Squidward said:


> I ended up building this bike up with a combination of Centaur Century Grey components and Chorus parts. The brake calipers, shifters, and cranks are Centaur Century Grey while the derailleurs are old Chorus. The wheels are hand-made with Ultegra hubs laced to NOS Mavic Open SUP rims. The cassette is a 10-speed Ultegra 12-28. Yes, I mixed and matched Campy with Shimano and it shifts fairly well. Initially, it shifted great, but as the components started to wear the crispness has gone away and now I get an occasional ghost shift but I've tuned it recently so I'll have to see how it works now. It's a combination of pre-2001 rear derailleur combined with a post-2001 shifter that allows it to work.
> 
> I took new pictures of the bike earlier today.


Good for you Squid.

I like that bike.

I was reading this thread and there was a link to a thread from when I got my Gooch.

It was beautiful, I loved it and I lost it in a fire about a year ago.

Treasure yours.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Thanks, guys! This bike actually served as my commuter for a while there, riding from my home to work and back when the weather was nice towards the end of last year. It's now reserved as my "RBR monthly ride" bike.


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## orbeamike (Nov 20, 2004)

Your Gurch built up nicely, My SLX is a bit of a tank but it rides and fits as nicely as I can ever hope for.


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## Squidward (Dec 18, 2005)

Mmm, Delta brakes...


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