# 700x23 vs 700x25



## NJBiker72

I recently wore out my old 25's and switched them for 23's. Much faster but seemingly much less stable. 

On my first full ride I hit some unexpected debris in a turn and crashed. Bad. 

Just getting back on the bike and now i feel this more than ever. 

Curious if there are any suggestions? 

The bike is a Specialized Secteur Sport. These are what I see as possibilities?
1. Get used to it. Maybe as I recover regain confidence and just get used to the tires it will be better?
2. An adjustment to the bike? LBS made no suggestions but I did not recognize this issue last time I was there. 
3. New wheels? Could better wheels (I have the stock ones) make the bike feel more stable?
4. Don't put 23's on a low end bike??

Thanks. First post here. Appreciate any feedback.


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## looigi

Surprising that you seem to be experiencing such a big difference between the two sizes. What pressures were you running in the 25 vs 23?


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## NJBiker72

looigi said:


> Surprising that you seem to be experiencing such a big difference between the two sizes. What pressures were you running in the 25 vs 23?


120 psi on each. Basically the recommended max. It could be in my head after the crash which is why I mentioned my first option of essentially getting used to it.


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## jmchapple

i think 25's ride better than 23's. i don't use 23's for anything. conti gatorskin are my top choice, am also using mich krylion on racing wheels. i only race crits so it is good to have more contact patch. i also don't run high pressures. i can tell no difference in speed. maybe you would be faster if you had more confidence in equipment.


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## avam

Please do some research on recommended psi. You'll find that you should be running much lower pressure.


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## Marc

NJBiker72 said:


> 120 psi on each. Basically the recommended max. It could be in my head after the crash which is why I mentioned my first option of essentially getting used to it.





avam said:


> Please do some research on recommended psi. You'll find that you should be running much lower pressure.


Yup. If you need max PSI to avoid pinch flats, then you need larger tires.


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## gtpharr

1. If you inflate same model 25mm & 23mm tire to the same pressure, the 25mm tire will have less rolling resistance and should be slightly faster. 

2. If you changed from 25mm to 23mm and did not recalibrate your speed computer to the new tire size, your computer is probably now reading faster than your actual speed.

3. As the others have said, you should research tire pressure recommendations for your weight. If you must ride any tire at maximum recommended pressure, you are an ideal candidate for the next size up in tires.



NJBiker72 said:


> I recently wore out my old 25's and switched them for 23's. Much faster but seemingly much less stable.
> 
> On my first full ride I hit some unexpected debris in a turn and crashed. Bad.
> 
> Just getting back on the bike and now i feel this more than ever.
> 
> Curious if there are any suggestions?
> 
> The bike is a Specialized Secteur Sport. These are what I see as possibilities?
> 1. Get used to it. Maybe as I recover regain confidence and just get used to the tires it will be better?
> 2. An adjustment to the bike? LBS made no suggestions but I did not recognize this issue last time I was there.
> 3. New wheels? Could better wheels (I have the stock ones) make the bike feel more stable?
> 4. Don't put 23's on a low end bike??
> 
> Thanks. First post here. Appreciate any feedback.


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## danl1

Just some data on what everyone else has been saying:

http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf


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## NJBiker72

Thanks for all the tips. Different from what the shop said. Definitely need to do more research.


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## Mike T.

NJBiker72 said:


> Thanks for all the tips. Different from what the shop said. Definitely need to do more research.


You never gave us an indication of what you weigh and that was probably the most important part. I use 120psi and 23mm tires only on a dead smooth indoor board velodrome. On the road I use 25mm tires pumped to 90-100psi. 170lbs here.


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## NJBiker72

About 190 these days. The guy at the shop (knowledgable LBS) suggested keep it fully at 120. Fill it every morning. Might try a little less.


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## Mike T.

NJBiker72 said:


> About 190 these days. The guy at the shop (knowledgable LBS) suggested keep it fully at 120. Fill it every morning. Might try a little less.


IMO 120 is ridiculous. Try 90-100 and see how nice that is. Let the tire work for you; not against you.


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## T K

I too am 190. What you need to do is ride 25s at about 105 rear and 100 front give or take to start. 120 in a 25 is way too much. I do the max 115 in my 23c pro race Mich. on race day. 25s with lower pressure for every day is oh sooo much more enjoyable.


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## Pablo

FYI, this is a classic debate. There are dozens and dozens of threads on 25s v. 23s and or proper tire pressure.


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## NJBiker72

Pablo said:


> FYI, this is a classic debate. There are dozens and dozens of threads on 25s v. 23s and or proper tire pressure.


Must say the discussion here is very different from what I had heard. I heard max pressure and narrower is better. 

This is making me think. I may want to play around a bit but the one thing that gives me pause is the hills. They are steep here. The LBS said keep them fully inflated. They know the roads. 

Guess maybe I need to find the time to do more local group rides.


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## Don4

I weigh 250 and am running 23s at 105 f / 115 r, and have a reasonably comfortable ride and no issues with flatting, pinch or otherwise. Running Serfas Seca RS tires.


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## T K

NJBiker72 said:


> Must say the discussion here is very different from what I had heard. I heard max pressure and narrower is better.
> 
> This is making me think. I may want to play around a bit but the one thing that gives me pause is the hills. They are steep here. The LBS said keep them fully inflated. They know the roads.
> 
> Guess maybe I need to find the time to do more local group rides.


My experience has been most guys at the bike shop don't always know what they are talking about. They live in their own little worlds and have a lot of outdated information. This seems to be the case with their "max pressure and narrower is better" thinking. Only in a velodrome or a super flat TT would this statement have much merrit.
Also, you seem to be of the belief that this tire size/ pressure thing is going to make you significantly faster or slower to keep up with or be faster than someone else. You'll learn like I did, took me a few years, all these little things don't add up to much. Being a stronger better conditioned and smarter rider are what will keep you in the pack.:thumbsup:


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## Pablo

NJBiker72 said:


> The LBS said keep them fully inflated.


Well, again, this is a re-hashed subject, but there's a lot of resources in previous threads and on the interwebs about max versus ideal tire pressure. 

As for their advice, don't be afraid to experiment. What many riders, and especially the mainstream bike industry (including many bike shops) consider "road" biking and the associated road biking gear is a pretty narrow vision of riding bikes on certain roads in a certain way. In my experience, it's really ridden by and directed towards racing and not riding. Road biking (including racing) has evolved and changed a lot over the past 100+ years, in ways not always better for recreational riding. What is best for you depends on a lot of things, but the best, and maybe only way to find out is to be willing to try out new things.


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## danl1

Mike T. said:


> IMO 120 is ridiculous. Try 90-100 and see how nice that is. Let the tire work for you; not against you.


I'd agree in 25's - but with 23's, 100 in the back is gonna be draggy and risk pinches on road imperfections.


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## weiwentg

Michelin's have relatively low pressure recommendations, but this chart is still quite instructive. For a 190+ lb rider, they'd recommend inflating a 23c tire to 110 PSI, the maximum listed on the sidewall. At my weight, I run 90 PSI on 23s, and just under 80 on 25s. I'll be switching to 25s when my current tires wear out.

http://www.michelinbicycletire.com/michelinbicycle/index.cfm?event=airpressure.view


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## krisdrum

Did the LBS even ask you what your weight is? if not, what are they basing their recommendation on? Put it to you this way, if you had been running lower pressure, you might not have crashed. So, as others have said, if you need max psi in the 23 to keep from pinch flatting, you need bigger tires. You shouldn't "need" max pressure, it is less efficient than a lower psi and it gives you no leeway to work with if the conditions change. I'll admit 23s feel faster, but I'm not entirely convinced they are. They go plenty fast at Paris-Roubaix and some of those guys are on 27s.


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## avam

danl1 said:


> Just some data on what everyone else has been saying:
> 
> http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf


I am following this on 25s and it's working really well for me. If you have a normal 45/55 weight distribution, then following the chart shows you might actually want close to 120lbs in the rear on 23s.


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## NJBiker72

Thanks definitely going to experiment. The shop is recognized as one of the best in the area. The guy I bought it from who fitted me as well is a very good rider but this is definitely making me want to play around. 

On the other hand I went out yesterday for my 3rd ride back without any adjustments yet and I felt much better already. Getting my legs and guts back. .


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## shokhead

Never had a pinch flat on my 23's and I'm 200lbs running 88f and 93r yet the guy at the bike shop said I should be at least 100 on the rear.


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## jtompilot

I have pinch flated rear 23 @ 110 psi and I weigh 165. I couldnt believe it but two holes told me so. the road didnt seem that rough, 30 mph shallow down hill.


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## NJBiker72

I pinch flatted the front at 120. Just hit a real nasty pothole that I could not avoid (well not while also avoiding a car).


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## krisdrum

jtompilot said:


> I have pinch flated rear 23 @ 110 psi and I weigh 165. I couldnt believe it but two holes told me so. the road didnt seem that rough, 30 mph shallow down hill.


You must have hit something nasty. I've got a good solid 5-10 lbs on you and usually ride 22s at 95/100 f/r with pretty light tubes. No issues and certainly not on pristine roads.


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## NJBiker72

It's Jersey, we don't have pristine roads. . A lot of traffic in this area and I went towards the shoulder. Heard POP!! And just felt the air go out.


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## krisdrum

NJBiker72 said:


> It's Jersey, we don't have pristine roads. . A lot of traffic in this area and I went towards the shoulder. Heard POP!! And just felt the air go out.


I'm familiar, I'm just across the river.


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## MTB&RDRDr

195 lbs here and I run 110 psi on conti 4000s 23s. No pinch flats, stable and comfortable.


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## Swerny

I weigh 200 and run 25's on my road bike and 28's on my SS commuter. On the commuter, i have a rear rack and carry a knapsack on it to and from work. 

I have been playing around with tire pressures on each. 

Road: Vittoria Rubino Pro 25: 105 or 110 PSI rear, 100 front

Commuter: Conti Ultra Sport 28: 100 PSI rear, 90 PSI front. 

I have been happy with both, 

Just this week, i tried 110 rear 100 front on the commuter and felt the ride to be too rough, especially on my hands.


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## shokhead

That souinds a tad high for 25's but if it works, cool!


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## ziscwg

shokhead said:


> That souinds a tad high for 25's but if it works, cool!


I run 105 lbs in my 25 rear (Cont 4 seasons). I ran with 100 a few times but I felt like the tire flexed in too much over sharper objects (pot holes, man hole edges)

Since I pop curbs and don't think twice about blasting a fire road, I should probably keep it a tad higher.


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## easyridernyc

MTB&RDRDr said:


> 195 lbs here and I run 110 psi on conti 4000s 23s. No pinch flats, stable and comfortable.


that's where i think i'm going...just ran i think 120 on conti 4 25's for about fifty miles. felt a little different at first, but once i got loose and settled in, man...

i was hauling a55. those tires are not phuckin around. they roll straight, and they roll fast. before i was at 110 on 23 hutch atom comps. they were rolling great, but they simply could not hang with road debris, they were getting hammered. a six by three inch rock finally did em both in last week (at the same time, man that sucked), i had to go conti. gonna try the 23's at medium high pressure and see how it feels keep you posted


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## shokhead

Suppose to be lower psi for bigger tires.


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## dmurphey

*23 vs 25*

I love fat tires, and built a modern custom road bike to be able to take 32 cross tires or light skinny fast road tires. I doubt I will ever quit messing around with tires for different situations, but at present I really like Conti GP 4000S 700 x 23 at 90 in front and 100 in back for training and club road rides, and Kenda Small Block Eight 700 x 32 cross tires at 55 front and 70 rear for gravel/all-purpose riding.


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## Chris-X

I ride GP 4 Season 28's pumped to about 80psi rear and around 70 front on an S-works Roubaix and at 160lbs I think one gets a very smooth ride.

I can't imagine a 200lb'er on 23's at 110 psi. That's a miserable ride.

Velonews just had an interesting comparison between the Roubaix, Synapse, Bianchi Infinito, and another bike I can't recall. Accompanying this article, they had a short piece discussing the tire pressures used by pro's at Paris Roubaix and it's like 70 to 80 psi, granted they're riding 27c tubulars. 

Try riding wider tires with lower pressures and you won't go back to 23's.


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## shokhead

It sure isn't. I'm right at 200 and ride 23's at 95/105. BTW, check out how much those pro's weight. Not much.


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## Chris-X

shokhead said:


> It sure isn't. I'm right at 200 and ride 23's at 95/105. BTW, check out how much those pro's weight. Not much.


Four endurance bikes put to the test on the cobbles and in the lab

Here's the link. The article may be very enlightening to those who feel they need to test the limits of psi.


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## shokhead

Who's testing any limits?

Velo News - June 2011


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## Luis Leon

I have ridden 32s on my Surly Crosscheck, both on and off road. I love the versatility of the fatter tire. That said I've been riding 23s on my road bike, and other than having to watch the road hazards a little more attentively. I have not missed the cushion of the 32s.


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## Chris-X

shokhead said:


> Who's testing any limits?
> 
> Velo News - June 2011


This is the part the high pressure advocates should check out



_This year at the real Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix, we took a close look at what the pros chose to ride over the cobbles. Most ran tires at least 25mm wide, with many selecting 27mm options for Roubaix. Leopard-Trek rode 27mm FMB handmade tubulars and Saxo Bank chose Specialized-branded Dugast tires that were stamped 27mm but looked even wider when inflated. Tire pressures varied by rider, of course, but most selected something under 8opsi. Race winner Johan Van Summeren, for example, ran 65 and 73psi, front and rear — and he weighs 170 pounds._

*If a new bike is not in the cards for you this year, the takeaway from all this is simple: When you want a more comfortable ride, put on bigger tires and go easy on the floor pump.*


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## F45

Well heck, you guys have convinced me. I'm going to put some MTB tires on my road bike since it will give a softer ride with no drag penalty.


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## weiwentg

F45 said:


> Well heck, you guys have convinced me. I'm going to put some MTB tires on my road bike since it will give a softer ride with no drag penalty.


The wider tire advocates are saying that within the typical range of road bike tires, like 20c to 28c (or maybe a bit less than that), wider tires often have lower rolling resistance. The additional drag from the width is not enough to offset the rolling resistance at most speeds.

Nobody said anything about MTB tires, which are knobbly (more drag) and much wider than you'd fit on a road bike. Not to mention you wouldn't be able to mount 26" wheels on a road bike.


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## Chris-X

F45 said:


> Well heck, you guys have convinced me. I'm going to put some MTB tires on my road bike since it will give a softer ride with no drag penalty.


I was reading a thread where a guy returned a saddle because it was 169 grams instead of the advertised 159. I think that's like 1/50th of a pound difference. Some are conscious of these things I guess.

Anyway, a lot of road bikes can't fit more than a 25 but even a slightly softer 25 makes a pretty big difference over a 23.

I specifically got a Roubaix because I wanted to run 28's at 70 to 80 lb psi. You lose a tiny amount of "drag" and pick up a gigantic amount of comfort.

It's not like I have to get back to my house a couple of minutes earlier on a 50 mile ride anyway and the difference isn't even that great. 

A bigger contact patch and a softer tire also make cornering much more secure.


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## JEREMY 0510

I really wanna try some 25's now since everyone saying they're more comfortable. Im a newbie riding 23's at 120 psi. Im 250 lbs and havent had any problems yet but they are rough as hell on rougher roads. The majority of our roads are smooth though. Im def gnna drop the psi a little in the morn and see if there is a diff. Thanks for all the advice.


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## terbennett

danl1 said:


> I'd agree in 25's - but with 23's, 100 in the back is gonna be draggy and risk pinches on road imperfections.


+1.....:thumbsup:


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## dcrosenzweig

190 @ 100 psi here. No pinches - comfy ride


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## bent steel

weiwentg said:


> Not to mention you wouldn't be able to mount 26" wheels on a road bike.


They still make 26" mountain bikes?  I run my 29er at 24f/28r.


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## acid_rider

I am on 23mm tyres, 7 bar (102-103psi) on rear wheel and 90-95psi on front wheel, I weigh 155#. No issues but I don't ride on cobblestones or jump kerbs. I tried 90psi on rear tyre (23mm) for 6+ months and had no issues either. Now I just bought new 25mm tyres and plan to ride 80-90psi on front and 90-100psi on rear. I think most people over-pump their tyres in any road size - 23mm, 25mm or 27mm......


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## Len J

Good advice in this thread on psi......I won't repeat.....but

You make the comment that the 23's are less stable.......I have to tell you, after riding for 40 years on many different width tires, that I've never noticed any stability differences. And the diff between 23's and 25's in terms of speed were negligible. Is it possible that your perceptions were skewed by your vigilance?

Len



NJBiker72 said:


> I recently wore out my old 25's and switched them for 23's. Much faster but seemingly much less stable.
> 
> On my first full ride I hit some unexpected debris in a turn and crashed. Bad.
> 
> Just getting back on the bike and now i feel this more than ever.
> 
> Curious if there are any suggestions?
> 
> The bike is a Specialized Secteur Sport. These are what I see as possibilities?
> 1. Get used to it. Maybe as I recover regain confidence and just get used to the tires it will be better?
> 2. An adjustment to the bike? LBS made no suggestions but I did not recognize this issue last time I was there.
> 3. New wheels? Could better wheels (I have the stock ones) make the bike feel more stable?
> 4. Don't put 23's on a low end bike??
> 
> Thanks. First post here. Appreciate any feedback.


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## alpharoad

I've using conti 4000s 23's at 110psi, front and rear. I'll be changing them to 25's, and lower pressure, for sure.
I feel that at 110psi the bike handling is a bit nervous.


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## NJBiker72

Len J said:


> Good advice in this thread on psi......I won't repeat.....but
> 
> You make the comment that the 23's are less stable.......I have to tell you, after riding for 40 years on many different width tires, that I've never noticed any stability differences. And the diff between 23's and 25's in terms of speed were negligible. Is it possible that your perceptions were skewed by your vigilance?
> 
> Len


I do feel my experience was skewed by just a general nervousness about getting back on the bike. 

Maybe the 23's are a tad less stable especially if you hit gravel or something but not unmanageable. And I do like them more for climbing. 

Thanks.


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## shokhead

alpharoad said:


> I've using conti 4000s 23's at 110psi, front and rear. I'll be changing them to 25's, and lower pressure, for sure.
> I feel that at 110psi the bike handling is a bit nervous.


Not sure why so high psi in the front?


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## kneisly

avam said:


> Please do some research on recommended psi. You'll find that you should be running much lower pressure.


I read through this threat last week and tried a lower pressure this weekend. good stuff :thumbsup:


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## Seattleblu

Run both 23 and 25's and love the 25's best. I've been training on 23's and racing on 25's. It's probably not a fair comparison either that my 25's are lighter tires (Vittoria EVO CX) on lighter wheels & tubes, but that's the way I roll since the races I do are hill climbs. Whether real or imagined, the 25's feel a bit more stable coming down canyons at 50 mph. I also just like the way they look on the bike, so maybe it's giving me a bit of a placebo effect.


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## alpharoad

shokhead said:


> Not sure why so high psi in the front?


I was using lower psi, front and rear, but the bike didn't felt responsive, so i increased the psi.
I'm new to road biking, so i'm still at trial and error stage.


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## goldsbar

For starters, many tire measurements are inaccurate. Second, words such as "much" should never be used in this discussion. No matter what you believe, a 23 isn't "much" faster than a 25 or vice versa. My butt dyno can't tell the speed difference when I get a flat and ride a tire with 50 psi vs my usual ~100 psi. Unless you're pinch flatting or trying to set the hour record, a bit less pressure and more width won't make *much* of a difference.


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## Mike T.

goldsbar said:


> For starters, many tire measurements are inaccurate.


Yeah my 28mm Contis are narrower than my 25mm Vittorias and Michelins.


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## rkgriffin

I have been running Conti 4000s 25's until I slashed a front tire recently out on a ride. Made it to the LBS and all they had were 23's so now I am running a 23 in front and 25 in the rear. Not sure if it is any better but definitely not any worse of a ride. I will probably keep it like this for awhile even though I have a spare 25 in my garage.


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## claywalk

I just rode with 25s for the first time today. 

I have ridden in about 10k miles on Continental 4000s 23c tires in the last 2 years. I switched to 4000s 25c because the roads I ride on are very cracky and uneven. I weighed the tires before installing them and they only weight 24 grams more each.

I am definitely a convert to 25c. very smooth. rolled out the measurement for my bike computer and made better time on a 35 mile ride today than I have in quite some time...

(I was also wearing my new pirate socks too which probably made a big difference as well)


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## shokhead

Did you weight your socks?


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## claywalk

shokhead said:


> Did you weight your socks?


I was going to, but I spent so much time teaching the parrot that was riding on my shoulder to get into an aero position, that I forgot to... sometimes teaching birds about aerodynamics can be very time consuming.


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## motobacon

*Somebody please check my math...*

According to the Quarterly article (and with my combined bike/kit/body weight of app. 240lbs: 210 me, 20 bike, and 10 for kit and to make the cipherin' easier) my pressures on a Motobecane Le Champion (y'all tell me if it's a racing or randonneur) should be...

25mm front (96 lb load): 88 psi, rear (144 lb load): 130psi...?!!! 

Pretty big difference, and exceeds most (clincher) tires inflation max.

The 45/55 ratio works out a little better:

front (108 lb load): 94 psi, rear (132 lb load): 120 psi.

Still a much bigger difference than anyone I know of is running. And I've been using 23s since I got the bike! Am I really supposed to find a tire that can handle 110 psi front and 150+ psi on the back?!!

Karl "REALLY confused" Motobacon:mad2:


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## acid_rider

*too high I think*



motobacon said:


> According to the Quarterly article (and with my combined bike/kit/body weight of app. 240lbs: 210 me, 20 bike, and 10 for kit and to make the cipherin' easier) my pressures on a Motobecane Le Champion (y'all tell me if it's a racing or randonneur) should be...
> 
> 25mm front (96 lb load): 88 psi, rear (144 lb load): 130psi...?!!!
> 
> Pretty big difference, and exceeds most (clincher) tires inflation max.
> 
> The 45/55 ratio works out a little better:
> 
> front (108 lb load): 94 psi, rear (132 lb load): 120 psi.
> 
> Still a much bigger difference than anyone I know of is running. And I've been using 23s since I got the bike! Am I really supposed to find a tire that can handle 110 psi front and 150+ psi on the back?!!
> 
> Karl "REALLY confused" Motobacon:mad2:


IMHO 

240 pounds is 109kg. Pardon me, I am metric person. I dont think someone of ~100-110kg is well served by 23mm tyres..... I would ride 25mm tyres (or even 27-28mm if they fit) and use 110psi on rear and 100psi on front.... You wont be any slower on 25/27mm than you would be on 23mm tyres but you would be more comfortable and less likely to hit tyre related problems.


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## tapar1

myself, I ride the Conti Grand Prix 24mm (700x24's)... a nice 'tweener... a little hard to find, but they're out there...


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## motobacon

acid_rider said:


> IMHO
> 
> 240 pounds is 109kg. Pardon me, I am metric person. I dont think someone of ~100-110kg is well served by 23mm tyres..... I would ride 25mm tyres (or even 27-28mm if they fit) and use 110psi on rear and 100psi on front.... You wont be any slower on 25/27mm than you would be on 23mm tyres but you would be more comfortable and less likely to hit tyre related problems.


Thanks for the feedback acid_rider. I must admit that the 25mm tires I run on my fixed gear are more comfortable than the 23mm on my road bike. I had chalked up the difference to the steel frame on the fixie vs. the aluminum on the road bike. I was pointing out that I was unsure of the science used in the Quarterly article. Nevertheless, I plan on changing to 25s for the road bike as well. 

And hey, the TOTAL bike and gear weight was nearly 110kg: I myself am merely 95 kg! 

Karl "getting lighter every day" Motobacon :thumbsup:


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## fradog

Check out this page. In my experience as a car designer, tire engineers are usually worth listening to.

w w w.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance

It wont explain why you crashed however, which I guess is between you and the road.


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