# Can we stop with the going "Neutral" when the Yellow Jersey has a mechanical?



## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

*Can we stop with the going "Neutral" when the Yellow Jersey has a mechanical?*

Equipment is part of racing ... and having a "Mechanical" when it's the perfect opportunity for your opponents to attack seems to be happening a bit more often.

If I were Sky, I'd make sure he has an issue with his bike at any point they know he would be put in difficulty by Aru, forcing him to slow or stop his attack or look like a major jerk with the other contenders upset with him.

As it stands now, Froome wants to know why Aru attacked at that time ... last I checked, it's called racing!

You don't see any other sports where they "Hold Up" when the other teams star play has an issue that will hold him up for a short while.

Seriously ... can you see any race in any other sport being held up like this? 


Track ... 10,000 meters ... oh, the top guy has a sock problem, everybody jog for a minute while they fix their sock!

Auto racing ... Oh, the leader got a flat ... everybody slow down while they get it fixed!

Basketball ... the other teams top player has a shoe problem, lets stop playing hard and just sit mid court, while we wait.

Even MTB ... top guy gets a mechanical, they don't hold up and wait, they race!


It's a stupid, unwritten rule where they need to get on with racing. If somebody has an issue, well ... that's part of racing! Deal with it and be prepared!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I used to think this "gentlemen's rule" is cool, but I'm now against it. Everyone has their own support. Preparation of equipment and random luck is a part of racing. You don't get to call a timeout just because you're yellow. I mean look at Porte and Martin, who had words for Aru, did Froome slow down for them, at all?


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Look...something truly nuts happens I'm all for holding up the race. The MJ goes off the road, a fan jumps in front of him, a busload of orphans turns over and blocks the race. That's fine...slow it down until the chaos can be dealt with.

But like the original poster stated, "mechanicals" or equipment issues to contend with are not "chaos" but part and parcel of ALL SPORTS, especially when "the race is on" or its "crunch time." 

For this sport to have this "unwritten rule" for common issues that are part of the game turns the event from a true sporting competition to a simple exhibition.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Look...something truly nuts happens I'm all for holding up the race. The MJ goes off the road, a fan jumps in front of him, a busload of orphans turns over and blocks the race. That's fine...slow it down until the chaos can be dealt with.
> 
> But like the original poster stated, "mechanicals" or equipment issues to contend with are not "chaos" but part and parcel of ALL SPORTS, especially when "the race is on" or its "crunch time."
> 
> For this sport to have this "unwritten rule" for common issues that are part of the game turns the event from a true sporting competition to a simple exhibition.


I agree 100%. This includes bathroom breaks.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Wookiebiker said:


> Seriously ... can you see any race in any other sport being held up like this?
> 
> 
> Track ... 10,000 meters ... oh, the top guy has a sock problem, everybody jog for a minute while they fix their sock!
> ...


Really... you've never heard of this thing called a "time out" used in other sports?  


Who want's to win the toughest race in the world only because the fastest guy had a mechanical problem? Not very manly. It's like having an * next to your name.

I know if while riding with my buds, if I beat the fastest guy to the top of a climb only because he has a mechanical, I'm not bragging about it. I'd get laughed out of the group.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Wookiebiker said:


> Equipment is part of racing ... and having a "Mechanical" when it's the perfect opportunity for your opponents to attack seems to be happening a bit more often.
> 
> If I were Sky, I'd make sure he has an issue with his bike at any point they know he would be put in difficulty by Aru, forcing him to slow or stop his attack or look like a major jerk with the other contenders upset with him.
> 
> ...


"we"
you probably should take it up with your fellow tour riders and not here but you are of course free to attack Froome next time he has a mechanical :thumbsup:


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

tlg said:


> Really... you've never heard of this thing called a "time out" used in other sports?
> 
> 
> Who want's to win the toughest race in the world only because the fastest guy had a mechanical problem? Not very manly. It's like having an * next to your name.
> ...


Several problems with this. In most of the examples above, the "time out" is not available. And for basketball, a "time out" is an allocated item provided to each team for which only a limited amount are given. Finally, those time outs are given to ALL participants, to be used only for specific things disclosed in advance and not just given to the guy who happens to be in the lead at the time.

As far as your last point, youre conflating a club ride with a race.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I have to admit I'm torn on this one. To both tlg and Wookiebiker's points I'm not sure you can compare cycling to other sports when it comes to the use of "time outs". Cycling is unique in too many ways. 

On balance, I think I lean toward keeping things the way they are in regards to slowdowns and stoppages. I like the sportsmanship of it. There's an elegance (for lack of a better word) that harkens back to some of the other traditions of these large stage races. To that end, though, I'd like to see them ban race radios and on course time checks. Let's have a race instead of a few guys in a breakaway getting meticulously nailed back by the peloton over 130k or so. Sure, once in a while they time it right and get clear at the end, but it seems like it's mostly a formula at this point. JMHO


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tlg said:


> Really... you've never heard of this thing called a "time out" used in other sports?
> 
> 
> Who want's to win the toughest race in the world only because the fastest guy had a mechanical problem? Not very manly. It's like having an * next to your name.
> ...


Timeouts are given to everyone on other sport, it's not an "unwritten rule" in other sports. If a team runs out of timeouts, then tough s** for them.

it's a race, and if things are not in the rulebook, then it's fair game. Life isn't always fair when you have a mechanical. That's what teammates and SAG cars are for. If you're out of them, then well then it's equivalent to running out of timeouts. Again tough s**. My view anyway. The way it is, the unwritten rule is more controverial than not, lately.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

We can all have our opinions of course, but it seems the only people who's opinions actually matter are the riders, and for the most part they seem to be in agreement on this issue. If it's a tradition they care to hang onto it doesn't really bother me.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

It is not just Cycling where this happens. In soccer (and I believe rugby), if a player is injured and on the deck and not seen by the referee, the opposition will put the ball out of play to stop the action. The accepted practice is a drop ball when the game recommences


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Opus51569 said:


> I have to admit I'm torn on this one. To both tlg and Wookiebiker's points I'm not sure you can compare cycling to other sports when it comes to the use of "time outs". Cycling is unique in too many ways.
> 
> On balance, I think I lean toward keeping things the way they are in regards to slowdowns and stoppages. I like the sportsmanship of it. There's an elegance (for lack of a better word) that harkens back to some of the other traditions of these large stage races. To that end, though, I'd like to see them ban race radios and on course time checks. Let's have a race instead of a few guys in a breakaway getting meticulously nailed back by the peloton over 130k or so. Sure, once in a while they time it right and get clear at the end, but it seems like it's mostly a formula at this point. JMHO


I want to see a ban in radio and time check too. Time checking allows the peloton to control the breakaway. By banning the time check, the peloton will now have to react, makes for a more random race as riders will have to guess how far ahead the breakaway is. Radios and time check takes away a lot of the random elements in racing.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

ddave12000 said:


> We can all have our opinions of course, but it seems the only people who's opinions actually matter are the riders, and for the most part they seem to be in agreement on this issue. If it's a tradition they care to hang onto it doesn't really bother me.


I agree that it is their call. I guess they all think it could be them the next time - well the ones with a chance of wearing the MJ, anyway


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ddave12000 said:


> We can all have our opinions of course, but it seems the only people who's opinions actually matter are the riders, and for the most part they seem to be in agreement on this issue. If it's a tradition they care to hang onto it doesn't really bother me.


that i agree. If the riders are ok with it, then hey it's their call. 

But honestly, what the riders should be worring about is to get their collective heads together and get seriously unionized and get a voice at the UCI table, instead of worrying about unwritten rules. But I digress.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

ddave12000 said:


> We can all have our opinions of course, but it seems the only people who's opinions actually matter are the riders, and for the most part they seem to be in agreement on this issue. If it's a tradition they care to hang onto it doesn't really bother me.


I agree. Unwritten rules are only as good as the participants willingness to adhere to them. Other then Aru, the other riders in that group chose to adhere to the tradition. If Aru had somehow managed to win the Tour based on that move, his win would have always had a stigma attached to it


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

coldash said:


> It is not just Cycling where this happens. In soccer (and I believe rugby), if a player is injured and on the deck and not seen by the referee, the opposition will put the ball out of play to stop the action. The accepted practice is a drop ball when the game recommences


That's for an injury, an extenuating circumstance. A common mechanical issue, or in the case of Schleck, missing a shift, does not fall under that purview.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

RkFast said:


> That's for an injury, an extenuating circumstance. A common mechanical issue, or in the case of Schleck, missing a shift, does not fall under that purview.


But it does happen, and the participants agree to follow the unwritten rules. As for cycling, I don't think chaingate was an issue at all. That was a rookie error on Schleck's part or as one of his rivals said "You drop you sword during a sword fight, you die". Misfortune is another matter


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Several problems with this.


Yea, there's lots of problems with comparing cycling to other sports. Like, in basketball, football, hockey, if you have a "mechanical" problem you can switch out with another player then go back in. If only we had that with cycling.




> As far as your last point, youre conflating a club ride with a race.


 No, I'm pretty sure I know the difference. My analogy merely being, if you want to be that big kahuna, you want it to be Mano-a-mano.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> I want to see a ban in radio and time check too.


Me too. I think it'd make the race much more interesting and organic.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I'm ok with slow rolling if it's during a part of the race that is just parading along - you know, long 90k stretches early in the race when everyone's just cruising along.

But I'm sorry, if it happens in the middle of the most important climb in the entire TdF, you are (or should be) getting dropped. Use the time to recover, grab a new bike, and try to catch up.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Where does it end though? Aru had a broken derailleur. He was limited to his 39x11 or 53x11. Although he won the stage, should everyone else had to shift to the 11 for the rest of the stage? Tour riders all go on and on about limiting their use of energy. So, if Quintana has a flat in an early stage, and has to chase back on, using more energy than Froome, should he have expected all the other favorites to drop back and chase with him? Be a gentleman at dinner, and race bikes.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

202cycle said:


> Where does it end though? Aru had a broken derailleur. He was limited to his 39x11 or 53x11. Although he won the stage, should everyone else had to shift to the 11 for the rest of the stage? Tour riders all go on and on about limiting their use of energy. So, if Quintana has a flat in an early stage, and has to chase back on, using more energy than Froome, should he have expected all the other favorites to drop back and chase with him? Be a gentleman at dinner, and race bikes.


There is lots a gray area here but the Aru thing was so egregious to me because he attacked (it appears) solely BECAUSE Froome had a mechanical. Had Froome had an issue after Aru had attacked and ARu not slowed for that i would have been OK. I think the peloton can, and has been, sorting these things out

BTW it was Uran with the busted derailleur, not Aru


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

202cycle said:


> Where does it end though? Aru had a broken derailleur. He was limited to his 39x11 or 53x11. Although he won the stage, should everyone else had to shift to the 11 for the rest of the stage? Tour riders all go on and on about limiting their use of energy. So, if Quintana has a flat in an early stage, and has to chase back on, using more energy than Froome, should he have expected all the other favorites to drop back and chase with him? Be a gentleman at dinner, and race bikes.


The convention is that it ends with the MJ/Yellow Jersey. It conventionally doesn't apply to anyone else but of course the peloton will agree to neutralise at times e.g. The tacks on the road during the 2012(IIRC) TdF and the time when Cancellara slowed the pack because of a slippery surface (I thought that was wrong but not my call)


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

tlg said:


> Me too. I think it'd make the race much more interesting and organic.


yeah! I just cannot wait to see 200km of a few sprinter squads time trailing start to finish. no way any break would get out of sight without time checks.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Opus51569 said:


> I have to admit I'm torn on this one. To both tlg and Wookiebiker's points I'm not sure you can compare cycling to other sports when it comes to the use of "time outs". Cycling is unique in too many ways.
> 
> On balance, I think I lean toward keeping things the way they are in regards to slowdowns and stoppages. I like the sportsmanship of it. There's an elegance (for lack of a better word) that harkens back to some of the other traditions of these large stage races. To that end, though, I'd like to see them ban race radios and on course time checks. Let's have a race instead of a few guys in a breakaway getting meticulously nailed back by the peloton over 130k or so. Sure, once in a while they time it right and get clear at the end, but it seems like it's mostly a formula at this point. JMHO


Good points indeed.


I guess where I draw the line is the consistency, or more accurately, the inconsistency of use of said unwritten rules by the peloton.

Not every team and/or every rider abides by them. Because, well, they want to win a race or a stage.

That being said; my mentality if I were racing would come down to:
1) Who is paying/employing me?
2) Am I going to be disqualified by doing the act?
3) Who do I owe loyalty to; sponsors or peloton?


Another ingredient is the hierarchy within the peloton. 



As a side note:
Remember 'chaingate' with Clentador and Schleck?


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I like the marathon model. We all start running at the same time, he or she who arrives first wins. It seems like it should be that simple and it is in other sports (running/triathlon). Maybe that's why I am so drawn to the Classics and one day races. This yellow jersey/leader on the road junk annoys me. Long live the Classics!!!! #isitspringyet?


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

This is one I'm torn on. Anything before the race is on, ok no problem. However, once the race is on to me that's another story. I still do NOT think the peloton should have waited for Froome in last year's Tour when he stopped for a pee break to wait for his teammates who had just crashed. That was ridiculous.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

This whole discussion showcases the futility of this "rule"...except, except, except...

When you have Greg Lemond saying that they should not have waited for Froome, it shows you the value of this.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Drop the radios and unless there is a major injury event the race shouldn't be "controlled". If you have a mechanical it's like getting a puncture, bad luck. If you don't want mechanicals then demand better from your sponsors. But it's up to the riders themselves to have the balls to push the envelope, if Froome was having problems but everyone ignored his team's protestations then the race would have continued. I would have liked to have seen Aru keep going. When Uran lost power to his rear derailler did Froome pull up and let him get it fixed? That is the precedent set there! Time to get back to racing as a full on test of endurance and guile. The yellow jersey is not a protected species.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

kiwisimon said:


> Drop the radios and unless there is a major injury event the race shouldn't be "controlled". If you have a mechanical it's like getting a puncture, bad luck. If you don't want mechanicals then demand better from your sponsors. But it's up to the riders themselves to have the balls to push the envelope, if Froome was having problems but everyone ignored his team's protestations then the race would have continued. I would have liked to have seen Aru keep going. When Uran lost power to his rear derailler did Froome pull up and let him get it fixed? That is the precedent set there! Time to get back to racing as a full on test of endurance and guile. The yellow jersey is not a protected species.


^^^An excellent poast is excellent^^^


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

tlg said:


> Really... you've never heard of this thing called a "time out" used in other sports?
> 
> 
> Who want's to win the toughest race in the world only because the fastest guy had a mechanical problem? Not very manly. It's like having an * next to your name.
> ...




Unlike cycling (which is a race not a match), the sports with timeouts generally only have two teams, so if one is incapacitated, short handed, etc., then there is no competition. In cycling, if one guy drops out, there are a hundred or so others to continue the competition. Additionally, the mechanical element is part of the sport/strategy, i.e. the bike and component manufacturers are trying to engineer a performance advantage that could affect the outcome, and the mechanics who do the maintenance are part of the team, so if the engineers and or mechanics fail at their part in the team, it should affect the outcome. 
Get rid of neutral support too, taking care of repairs and flats should be part of the team strategy. It would also reduce the danger from the additional service vehicles. 

If it is to be only about the rider, then they should all be on the same bikes and components to eliminate that variable. One make races are popular in motorsports, but even then there are ways to engineer mechanical advantages.




I am a bit surprised by the number of mechanicals considering the amount of care the bikes are under. Heck, I can go 10k+ miles without anything breaking on my bike with minimal maintenance LOL 



.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

MoPho said:


> I am a bit surprised by the number of mechanicals considering the amount of care the bikes are under. Heck, I can go 10k+ miles without anything breaking on my bike with minimal maintenance LOL .


You aren't riding on the knife edge of technology. Look at F1 cars, they have mechanicals as well but my old Nissan Safari had 100,000 miles with only tires brakes and fluids changed. Clutch was done at 120,000.


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## MoPho (Jan 17, 2011)

kiwisimon said:


> You aren't riding on the knife edge of technology. Look at F1 cars, they have mechanicals as well but my old Nissan Safari had 100,000 miles with only tires brakes and fluids changed. Clutch was done at 120,000.


Neither are they. They are running the same Di2 derailleurs, frames, etc., that are available to the public. And unlike an F1 car, a bicycle is a simple machine, hardly pushing the boundaries of engineering with the rules they have to follow. 


.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

KoroninK said:


> This is one I'm torn on. Anything before the race is on, ok no problem. However, once the race is on to me that's another story. I still do NOT think the peloton should have waited for Froome in last year's Tour when he stopped for a pee break to wait for his teammates who had just crashed. That was ridiculous.


There are so many logistical flaws with the practice, like the obvious one you point out, that it is taken advantage of... and so many more, many of which are mentioned already. We are talking about a practice in a sport that doesn't really even have rules. It is actually an event, much like WWE. Running with your bike is fine? You get to represent your argument prior to a disqualification? A large part of this is necessitated by the event being in non-controlled real world space, unlike a stadium, and it happens over 3 weeks with weather, fans, dogs, motos and you name it having massive impacts (potentially). So lots of slack is expected? Cycling has a specter of deus ex machina in a way no other major sport does. Right or wrong. This practice can not be fairly applied. Therefore, in my mind, that makes it antiquated and a nuisance and it should be abandoned. If there isn't a way to define the application of the practice then it's just more gray in a sea of gray area. All of that said, I will confess that the weirdness factor, the quirky stuff, is something I have grown to really appreciate about the sport of cycling.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

kiwisimon said:


> Drop the radios and unless there is a major injury event the race shouldn't be "controlled". If you have a mechanical it's like getting a puncture, bad luck. If you don't want mechanicals then demand better from your sponsors. But it's up to the riders themselves to have the balls to push the envelope, if Froome was having problems but everyone ignored his team's protestations then the race would have continued. I would have liked to have seen Aru keep going. When Uran lost power to his rear derailler did Froome pull up and let him get it fixed? That is the precedent set there! Time to get back to racing as a full on test of endurance and guile. The yellow jersey is not a protected species.


Froome's team didn't protest, his main rivals slowed the race. Aru could have kept going. He only slowed because no one would work with him... I wonder why?

By the way, isn't Aru the guy who got fined for the sticky bottle incident a couple of year ago...team mate of Nibali who was disqualified for cheating holding onto a car???? Yeh great role models.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> I used to think this "gentlemen's rule" is cool, but I'm now against it. Everyone has their own support. Preparation of equipment and random luck is a part of racing. You don't get to call a timeout just because you're yellow. I mean look at Porte and Martin, who had words for Aru, did Froome slow down for them, at all?


The problem with your argument is that Froome was well ahead of Port and Martin when the accident happened. Also, it's hard to say when Froome got the message about the accident or how the message was delivered. Aru was behind Froome when Froome had the mechanical, then he attacked. That's a big difference.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

dnice said:


> This whole discussion showcases the futility of this "rule"...except, except, except...
> 
> When you have Greg Lemond saying that they should not have waited for Froome, it shows you the value of this.


When you have Froome's main rivals waiting, it shows you that Greg's values don't mean that much after all.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

First of all, the best race is one won by athletes 'square and fair', not by equipment, IMHO.

Otherwise let's just make it so easy for grumpier fans to throw tacks on the road or sand onto the bikes to cause mechanicals of the guys they dislike then, so their favourites can attack. It has happened a few times decades ago.

OTOH it would have been interesting to see Aru getting shot down fairly quickly by the much faster Froome.

As for radios - I think they are an important part of the Tour now, and also a very useful item to help with safety (slow down there is a crash ahead). I also think it helps the racing excitement to have teammates on the radio sent back to help a team leader catch back after a mechanical or other stoppage, instead of being totally eliminated by virtue of a flat or a pee. However I like Lance's idea best: have the team radio chatter broadcast on the live TV broadcast like they have in Nascar to help entertain the cycling fans - maybe even have an app where fans can tune in any team's radio chatter and race radio too.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

heh heh...preventing time checks...like they can stop spectators from fashioning placards or shouting out along the route. Or placing team workers along the course to flash special signals, like a third base coach in baseball. Hell, they can likely already snag the info off their Garmins.

I kind of like the "respect the leader" tradition, but Aru exhibited horrible timing. It looked to me like he either sensed or noticed Froome's mechanical condition, or eavesdropped on the communication. Ten seconds earlier and it would've been tough sh111t, Froomie!


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> First of all, the best race is one won by athletes 'square and fair', not by equipment, IMHO.


I didn't see or hear Jensy say it but they mentioned that on Lance Armstrongs podcast. BTW, I'm loving his podcast, about a 35 minute recap of the stage that just finished and preview of the next one...Great insight/behind-the-scenes kind of stuff.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Absolutely, I'd love to dump it. I think that gentleman's rule is terrible. I want all out attacks all the time.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

ngl said:


> Froome's team didn't protest, his main rivals slowed the race. Aru could have kept going. He only slowed because no one would work with him... I wonder why?.


maybe cause there is this silly tradition? You're right his team mates had dropped back to support him but you know they were shouting it up before they dropped back. 



ngl said:


> By the way, isn't Aru the guy who got fined for the sticky bottle incident a couple of year ago...team mate of Nibali who was disqualified for cheating holding onto a car???? Yeh great role models.


Sticky bottles? Who hasn't done that? You must have studied the Conway argument method: where any argument is turned around to reflect on other people. You played it well.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

kiwisimon said:


> maybe cause there is this silly tradition? You're right his team mates had dropped back to support him but you know they were shouting it up before they dropped back.
> 
> 
> Sticky bottles? Who hasn't done that? You must have studied the Conway argument method: where any argument is turned around to reflect on other people. You played it well.


yeah this happens all the time.
all the time. 
sure thing. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E4vRtC7IcY


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

I am with OP, I think the unwritten rule has been carried too far. These guys are not racing against each other day in and day out all season, so I don't think a gentleman's respect of daily association applies. Sky has built a team with the far ahead #1 goal of winning the TdF and because of that, their pursuit of the yellow is a calculated, scientific pursuit of the yellow (much like the USPS era). The only real opportunity for another team is an unpredictable factor such as crash, mechanical, Froome gets severe diarrhea.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Watched it again last night. 3/4 of the time the peloton was "waiting", Froomey was resetting his bike computer. The more competitive bike clubs out there don't do that on their AA Saturday morning throwdowns. Plus, he had FOUR riders with him and got his new bike. Some 'disadvantage' he was put in. Pfft.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

RkFast said:


> Watched it again last night. 3/4 of the time the peloton was "waiting", Froomey was resetting his bike computer. The more competitive bike clubs out there don't do that on their AA Saturday morning throwdowns. Plus, he had FOUR riders with him and got his new bike. Some 'disadvantage' he was put in. Pfft.


What is your point, and how do you equate this as being Froomes fault? 

Aru attacked when he was behind Froome (and he later said he didn't know Froome was in trouble for God sakes). The other riders didn't agree and refused to work with Aru and they waited. Good for them.

Froome is using a text book way to win the tour. Why are you guys so angry at him? You should be angry at the riders & teams that haven't figured a way to beat him. It really isn't that hard.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

hfc said:


> I am with OP, I think the unwritten rule has been carried too far. These guys are not racing against each other day in and day out all season, so I don't think a gentleman's respect of daily association applies. Sky has built a team with the far ahead #1 goal of winning the TdF and because of that, their pursuit of the yellow is a calculated, scientific pursuit of the yellow (much like the USPS era). The only real opportunity for another team is an unpredictable factor such as crash, mechanical, Froome gets severe diarrhea.


So, you're saying other teams aren't allowed to use the same hyper-focused strategy that Sky uses?

Oh, and on topic, all you've got to do is convince the actual Peloton to discard the unwritten rule...


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

kiwisimon said:


> maybe cause there is this silly tradition? You're right his team mates had dropped back to support him but you know they were shouting it up before they dropped back.


How would anyone know this? 




kiwisimon said:


> Sticky bottles? Who hasn't done that? You must have studied the Conway argument method: where any argument is turned around to reflect on other people. You played it well.


Nope. I said Aru got fined for doing this after repeated warnings. Big difference. And, I like the way you dismissed my comment about Nibaly getting disqualified hanging on to the team car. That why some riders don't want to work with the likes of Aru and Nibaly along with a few others.


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

ngl said:


> What is your point, and how do you equate this as being Froomes fault?
> 
> Aru attacked when he was behind Froome (and he later said he didn't know Froome was in trouble for God sakes). The other riders didn't agree and refused to work with Aru and they waited. Good for them.
> 
> Froome is using a text book way to win the tour. Why are you guys so angry at him? You should be angry at the riders & teams that haven't figured a way to beat him. It really isn't that hard.


Because the formula involves spending a lot of money to assemble the right team and essentially forfeit the remainder of the racing calendar. I'm not angry at Froome, the guy's a great rider but this is the only race you'll see him truly compete to win. I was glad to see Quintana in the Giro, but, to me, that was a sign he was giving up on winning the Tour.


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## pndxtr1 (Aug 15, 2002)

*Go for it!*



Wookiebiker said:


> Equipment is part of racing ... and having a "Mechanical" when it's the perfect opportunity for your opponents to attack seems to be happening a bit more often.
> 
> If I were Sky, I'd make sure he has an issue with his bike at any point they know he would be put in difficulty by Aru, forcing him to slow or stop his attack or look like a major jerk with the other contenders upset with him.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I must agree. These are NOT fun rides or tours. These are RACES. Stuff breaks or goes flat, riders crash, riders get sick, riders get tired. If you can't be competitive ALL the time, you'll lose.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

hfc said:


> I'm not angry at Froome, the guy's a great rider but this is the only race you'll see him truly compete to win.


I don't know what you're talking about. He's got a whole list of non TdF wins. He's also an accomplished time trialist with a bunch if ITT wins.
If he wasn't focused on the Tdf (because that's where the money is) he'd have a heck of a lot more wins.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

hfc said:


> Because the formula involves spending a lot of money to assemble the right team and essentially forfeit the remainder of the racing calendar .


That is the wrong answer. Hint, they did it last year in another race.


hfc said:


> I'm not angry at Froome, the guy's a great rider but this is the only race you'll see him truly compete to win. I was glad to see Quintana in the Giro, but, to me, that was a sign he was giving up on winning the Tour.


Many people are angry for Froome winning. There is a lot of great talent in the TdF, but, they just need to start using different tactics. Froome will earn a lot of extra money by winning the tour rather than the Vuelta or Giro.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

Wookiebiker said:


> they know he would be put in difficulty by Aru, forcing him to slow or stop his attack or look like a major jerk with the other contenders upset with him.


You should look at the race again. No one forced Aru to slow. Aru became upset and slowed because no one would work with him (because he's a jerk). Even the commentaries said so.



Wookiebiker said:


> As it stands now, Froome wants to know why Aru attacked at that time ... last I checked, it's called racing!


Froome already knows why Aru attacked....Because he is a jerk.



Wookiebiker said:


> It's a stupid, unwritten rule where they need to get on with racing. If somebody has an issue, well ... that's part of racing! Deal with it and be prepared!


Why don't you get the unwritten rule changed? Just phone a few key riders up and tell them.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

ngl said:


> Why don't you get the unwritten rule changed? Just phone a few key riders up and tell them.


Eventually, due to money and sponsors ... they may well ignore the rule down the line.

Part of the problem is none of them really know which, if any, team they will be on next season ... so they don't want to piss off another teams director.

The big problem I see now is that it's used as a tactic by riders like Froome ... You know a tough section is coming up that benefits another riders strengths and they will attack there, which you might not be able to hold on and lose time.

What to do ... Oh ... I have a mechanical and need a bike change!!! The peloton goes into neutral to wait, because they don't want to win on a "Technicality".

Froome then coasts through that section, gets back to dominating the tour knowing he lost no time. As technology becomes more and more ingrained in the sport, this will become more and more of a tactic.

At the same time, Froome isn't waiting around for other riders when they have a mechanical ... he's going to bury them knowing there are only unwritten rules of neutral around the yellow jersey ... if you hold it, you get the advantage.

It's sad in the end because it makes for a boring tour for everybody ... Froome locked the tour up on the "FIRST" day because people won't take advantage when they are presented with opportunity.

Then, the tour has to rely on the Green, Polka and White jersey competitions that nobody really cares about, except in fantasy leagues and the riders themselves. This year, Kittle has the green a lock and the only battles left are Polka and White.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

Wookiebiker said:


> The big problem I see now is that it's used as a tactic by riders like Froome ... You know a tough section is coming up that benefits another riders strengths and they will attack there, which you might not be able to hold on and lose time.
> 
> What to do ... Oh ... I have a mechanical and need a bike change!!! The peloton goes into neutral to wait, because they don't want to win on a "Technicality".



Not intending to defend Froome per se, but seriously, how do you know this information? 

It seems pretty clear based on the evidence of this race that Froome has not been worried about getting dropped. Or did I imagine him taking control of the climb to prevent any further attacks?



Wookiebiker said:


> Froome then coasts through that section, gets back to dominating the tour knowing he lost no time. As technology becomes more and more ingrained in the sport, this will become more and more of a tactic.
> 
> At the same time, Froome isn't waiting around for other riders when they have a mechanical ... he's going to bury them knowing there are only unwritten rules of neutral around the yellow jersey ... if you hold it, you get the advantage.
> 
> ...


So, why don't the other teams and riders put themselves in the driver's seat then? Is there a rule prohibiting this? 

Or is it simply that they are the best team right now, and the others haven't figured out how to stop them?

By the way, and to be clear, if people attacked on mechanicals I wouldn't personally be bothered by it but as I've said before there's only one group of people who can make this decision: the pro peloton.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

ngl said:


> How would anyone know this?


cause it is common sense? I imagine you wipe your bottom before flushing the loo but how would anyone know this? 



ngl said:


> And, I like the way you dismissed my comment about Nibaly getting disqualified hanging on to the team car.


dismissed? Hardly, I let your point stand as a fact. Dismissed would be saying something like, "that is irrelevant". You posted a fact on the internet. I sincerely apologise for not recognising the success of that accomplishment. Well done!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

hfc said:


> Because the formula involves spending a lot of money to assemble the right team and essentially forfeit the remainder of the racing calendar. I'm not angry at Froome, the guy's a great rider but this is the only race you'll see him truly compete to win. I was glad to see Quintana in the Giro, but, to me, that was a sign he was giving up on winning the Tour.


just curious. how does a team end up with 39 victories in a year if the only part of the race calendar they don't forfeit is tour de france that is 21 stages long? (that makes them the WT team with second most wins in 2016 by the way).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

ddave12000 said:


> So, you're saying other teams aren't allowed to use the same hyper-focused strategy that Sky uses?
> 
> Oh, and on topic, all you've got to do is convince the actual Peloton to discard the unwritten rule...


There are other teams that don't have near the budget to afford a team of cyclists with the abilities that Sky can afford. Cyclists that would be team leaders on another team are paid high enough wages that they are willing to give up their ambitions and work for Froome.

Why should a rider on a lesser funded team give up his ambitions because his team hasn't the funding to surround him with a strong enough team to combat Froome and Sky's funding?


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## hfc (Jan 24, 2003)

tlg said:


> I don't know what you're talking about. He's got a whole list of non TdF wins. He's also an accomplished time trialist with a bunch if ITT wins.
> If he wasn't focused on the Tdf (because that's where the money is) he'd have a heck of a lot more wins.


I agree, he would have more wins, if he focused on other, or more races. I'm not arguing that he's not a great rider, just that you can't give him any free passes in the only race he's really trying to win all season.

Here are his 2017 results. 27 days of racing before the TdF

Christopher Froome


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

ugh...how about the UCI write some proper rules that everyone can follow and dispense with this bollocks?


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

velodog said:


> There are other teams that don't have near the budget to afford a team of cyclists with the abilities that Sky can afford. Cyclists that would be team leaders on another team are paid high enough wages that they are willing to give up their ambitions and work for Froome.
> 
> Why should a rider on a lesser funded team give up his ambitions because his team hasn't the funding to surround him with a strong enough team to combat Froome and Sky's funding?


Anyone remember stage 15 of the 2016 Vuelta?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXNfIi7F4nI


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Thanks, WookieBiker, for kicking up some dust here!
This tour has been quite uneventful, and the conversation at RBR has been light.
Now, we got some fire going! Allons!


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

PJay said:


> ...This tour has been quite uneventful...


Uneventful? Two photo finishes decided by millimeters, five top riders crashing out in spectacular fashion, one controversially getting the heave ho, long breakaways caught within kilometers of the finish, and all amid the breathtaking France scenery. I think you're watching a different channel.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Interestingly enough ... a "Commentary" article about this was posted on Velonews today:

The Tour has been yellow fleeced by unwritten rules | VeloNews.com


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

coldash said:


> The convention is that it ends with the MJ/Yellow Jersey. It conventionally doesn't apply to anyone else but of course the peloton will agree to neutralise at times e.g. The tacks on the road during the 2012(IIRC) TdF and the time when Cancellara slowed the pack because of a slippery surface (I thought that was wrong but not my call)


Then why did everyone sit up and wait for Froome when he went off the road several days ago. He was not in yellow then. 

And why did Lance sit up and wait for Jan Ullrich when he went off the road on a descent in the Pyrenees? 

This "rule" needs to be dumped. This is a race.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

cda 455 said:


> As a side note:
> Remember 'chaingate' with Clentador and Schleck?


I was all for Alberto attacking then, whether he saw the dropped chain or not. Being able to shift your gears successfully is an important part of racing a bike.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Wookiebiker said:


> Interestingly enough ... a "Commentary" article about this was posted on Velonews today:
> 
> The Tour has been yellow fleeced by unwritten rules | VeloNews.com


I can't imagine Eddy Merckx or Hinault waiting for any of their rivals. 

I think that Lance is the one who made a big deal about this "unwritten rules" stuff because it mitigated one of the elements of racing that he could not control - mechanical incidents and crashes.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

il sogno said:


> Then why did everyone sit up and wait for Froome when he went off the road several days ago. He was not in yellow then.
> 
> And why did Lance sit up and wait for Jan Ullrich when he went off the road on a descent in the Pyrenees?
> 
> This "rule" needs to be dumped. This is a race.


I refer you back to my post. Try reading it this time. But just to help you - the peloton makes the call. In reality, given that there is no written rule, only they can decide and if anyone gets heavy with them about it they'll take their own collective action e.g. a go slow if they don't like it.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Wookiebiker said:


> Interestingly enough ... a "Commentary" article about this was posted on Velonews today:
> 
> The Tour has been yellow fleeced by unwritten rules | VeloNews.com



Lionel Birnie ‎@lionelbirnie 


Tour de France 1913: "Oooh, don't attack Eugène Christophe while he's in the blacksmiths!"

1:34 PM - 9 Jul 2017 



122 122 Retweets 

458 458 likes 

Thanks, good read.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Not suprisingly, Greg Lemond has an opinion too!

Cycling - Riders have lost their ability to race, says LeMond | Reuters

FWIW, I agree with him wholeheartedly. This nonsense has needs to stop.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

So much debate on unwritten rules is funny to me. Let's say we (all fans and whoever else) make a decision to unanimously end the unwritten rules...then what? How will it be enforced? 

People keep saying there needs to be a riders union (probably should be) and yet, the behavior of the peloton with regards to unwritten rules is very similar to a union. "we" don't like it, "we're" not going to do it.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

ddave12000 said:


> So much debate on unwritten rules is funny to me. Let's say we (all fans and whoever else) make a decision to unanimously end the unwritten rules...then what? How will it be enforced?
> 
> People keep saying there needs to be a riders union (probably should be) and yet, the behavior of the peloton with regards to unwritten rules is very similar to a union. "we" don't like it, "we're" not going to do it.


It's the internet, I think people are just expressing what they would like to see happen in the sport. We are all pretty much smart enough to know that we have no influence over the UCI or the pro peloton. It's just a discussion point about where we would like to see things go.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

Rashadabd said:


> It's the internet, I think people are just expressing what they would like to see happen in the sport. We are all pretty much smart enough to know that we have no influence over the UCI or the pro peloton. It's just a discussion point about where we would like to see things go.


Without doubt, true. And yet, people seem extraordinarily bent out of shape over it. Just an observation...


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

ddave12000 said:


> Without doubt, true. And yet, people seem extraordinarily bent out of shape over it. Just an observation...


I honestly don't see a lot of outrage here. No one is throwing tantrums.

It's just people expressing their dislike for the unwritten rules.


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## greatestalltime (Aug 20, 2012)

In othe sports timeouts aren't granted to stop a momentum gaining play. Even in the case of a player being hurt you'll still see a long td or key fast break that gets the entire crowd into the game and changes the whole complection of the game.


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## greatestalltime (Aug 20, 2012)

fast ferd said:


> heh heh...preventing time checks...like they can stop spectators from fashioning placards or shouting out along the route. Or placing team workers along the course to flash special signals, like a third base coach in baseball. Hell, they can likely already snag the info off their Garmins.
> 
> I kind of like the "respect the leader" tradition, but Aru exhibited horrible timing. It looked to me like he either sensed or noticed Froome's mechanical condition, or eavesdropped on the communication. Ten seconds earlier and it would've been tough sh111t, Froomie!


Spectators with fake times too.


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> I honestly don't see a lot of outrage here. No one is throwing tantrums.
> 
> It's just people expressing their dislike for the unwritten rules.


I was referring to the interwebs as a whole, not just here. There has been quite a bit of debate over this.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Wookiebiker said:


> Equipment is part of racing ... and having a "Mechanical" when it's the perfect opportunity for your opponents to attack seems to be happening a bit more often.
> 
> If I were Sky, I'd make sure he has an issue with his bike at any point they know he would be put in difficulty by Aru, forcing him to slow or stop his attack or look like a major jerk with the other contenders upset with him.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is all about winning at all costs and taking advantage of your opponent at every opportunity. While we're at it, we should get ride of those silly "rules" in boxing (need more deaths to make it more exciting) and referees in football (both types). Sport should be a perfect reflection of nature, red in tooth and claw, and disregard any kind of civility, humanity, gentlemanly competition and compassion.

And while we're at it, let's get rid of this silly team BS. Why should anyone help someone else win. Riders should be taking every opportunity to sabotage and attack their team "leader" so as to promote themselves and win at any cost.


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