# USB Ceramic bearings for your Campy wheels



## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

Anyone here do the USB ceramic bearing upgrade on your Campy wheels?

Where did you buy them from?
Did you install them yourself?

I'm contemplating doing the ceramic upgrade to my new Bora's

My new wheels


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## T0mi (Mar 2, 2011)

ceramic bearings cannot really be considered an _upgrade_ but a replacement. Ceramic bearings won't make your wheels roll faster. In theory, they have a longer life but in practice there is not much a difference because manufacturing precision and tolerance is more important than the material used.

Hey, the bearing of my Campagnolo Shamal model 1997 are still like new and I can't see rolling resistance difference with those of my new wheelsets.

Most bearings if high-end wheels survive their life with the original owner of the weelset or even the wheelset itself. There is chance you will break them or get rid of them in favor of the 2013 or 2014 shiny new model before they need to be changed.

So if your bearings are still fine and I bet they are, keep your money in your wallet. There is chance you will never have to change them.

Nice wheels btw.


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

T0mi said:


> ceramic bearing cannot really be considered an _upgrade_.


yeah ok dude.. you're right, ceramics should be considered a downgrade and are worse than steel because ceramics are really square.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

PsychoMike said:


> Anyone here do the USB ceramic bearing upgrade on your Campy wheels?
> 
> Where did you buy them from?
> Did you install them yourself?
> ...


I'd love hear what you think about your Bora Ones!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

PsychoMike said:


> yeah ok dude.. you're right, ceramics should be considered a downgrade and are worse than steel because ceramics are really square.


upgrade, replacement, whatever. they won't improve performance. and there is a good chance they won't last as long.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Campy uses incredibly durable and smooth stock bearings. If you intend to install USB in your Boras, do it while they are new, otherwise you are putting ceramic bearings in races that have already seen non-ceramic bearings. It probably won't make any difference, but if you're investing the money, make it early. I'm not sporting any ceramic bearing wheels, but both of my road bikes have Record UT cranksets with USB and if anyone puts big stress on bearings, it's me. Three years and running on the older one. I rode with a guy out in San Diego who built up a set of wheels with record hubs and DT rims. He installed CULT bearings (around $400) before the first ride. It seemed like a waste of money to me. If I was going to upgrade, I'd do it on a wheelset I'd use where seconds mattered, like a TT wheelset.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

PsychoMike said:


> yeah ok dude.. you're right, ceramics should be considered a downgrade and are worse than steel because ceramics are really square.


If by downgrade you mean more money for no improved performance, then yes they are a downgrade.

-Eric


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

But when you flip your bike upside down and spin the wheels, they go much longer. Isnt that what _really_ counts?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

or

Try removing all grease from the bearings and oiling them. They will roll forever during the upside-down bicycle test.

-Eric


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

TomH said:


> But when you flip your bike upside down and spin the wheels, they go much longer. Isnt that what _really_ counts?


No thats not what counts (no-load spinning)

Ceramic bearings main purpose is to reduce mechanical drag is it not?

If ceramics had no benefits whatsoever then why we're they ever invented?


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

PsychoMike said:


> Ceramic bearings main purpose is to reduce mechanical drag is it not?


Nope.


> If ceramics had no benefits whatsoever then why we're they ever invented?


If someone will buy it, someone will sell it.


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

TomH said:


> Nope.


Well then you should right away hold an international conference denouncing ceramic bearings usefullness. I'm sure I can hear all the engineers in Germany laughing all the way over here. 
Ceramic Bearings Review - Engineers Edge

but silly me, why would I even consider listening to some random guy on a bicycle posting forum

and those morons at NASA, they got it all wrong too. They should have listened to you


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

You should probably read the link you posted.. Bikes arent high temperature, aircraft, semiconductor or high speed electrical motors. Ceramic bearings have certain, specific industrial uses. NASA also doesnt do a lot of bicycling. 

But if you just want to be a dick about it, why even bother asking? Just go spend your money and dont bother! Its kind of telling that no ones really diving in to say how great they are.


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

TomH said:


> You should probably read the link you posted.. Bikes arent high temperature, aircraft, semiconductor or high speed electrical motors. Ceramic bearings have certain, specific industrial uses. NASA also doesnt do a lot of bicycling.
> 
> But if you just want to be a dick about it, why even bother asking? Just go spend your money and dont bother! Its kind of telling that no ones really diving in to say how great they are.


Again you should go plan that international conference. Now you can tell all those engineers to stop wasting their time because high temps are never achieved in bicycle wheel bearings because you actually know the temp threshold. 
I think they will listen to you. I'm sure they will dismiss all the other attributes of ceramics such as lower friction, longer life, smoother surfaces, never rust, higher spin rates and more.

And if you read my original post I asked for whom has installed the Campy USB ceramics into their Campy wheels, where did they get them from and if they installed them themselves.

I didn't ask for your stupid personal unscientific opinions of what you think of ceramic bearings or anyone else's for that matter.
The only dick here is you. Learn to read peoples posts


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

In that case, USB is poser. Real men use the C.U.L.T. bearings because they cost more. Therefore they are better.

Independent testing has shown a max of 2-3watts if you "upgrade" every bearing in the drivetrain to ceramics. Even then, I haven't read what they were comparing them to. Elite track guys pull off the seals, remove the grease, oil their steel bearings and they next to 0 drag.

You sound set in your ways, but I will say it again. Ceramic bearings for cycling are not a significant upgrade. They were designed for applications where rpms are in the 10X10^3 range or more and much higher temperatures than ever seen in cycling.

I do sell those bearings you are looking for and I would even install them. They are not too hard to install yourself. Having said that, I tell all my customers not to bother.

-Eric


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

Psychomike, is it possible you work for a company selling ceramic bearings? Just how many people would it take saying that they offer no advantage in bicycling applications (seems I've seen under 20k rpm being of no practical advantage)?

I'm impressed with your steadfast belief that they're superior, much as I believe that Campy is clearly better than all others and that La Fin du Monde is the best value in beer, but try reading what others are saying and pay a little less attention to what "international studies" say. Me drinking that Canadian beer is an "international study" but you don't see me writing results about it, do you? Oh, wait...


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*Well. .*



bent steel said:


> Just how many people would it take saying that they offer no advantage in bicycling applications (seems I've seen under 20k rpm being of no practical advantage)?


Problem is, 99.5% of the people saying there is no advantage are not even remotely qualified to say so. They are just talking out of their *ss.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

QQUIKM3 said:


> Problem is, 99.5% of the people saying there is no advantage are not even remotely qualified to say so. They are just talking out of their *ss.


If you have data that suggests otherwise I would like to see it. All the independent testing I've seen backs up my statements.

-Eric


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## kbwh (May 28, 2010)

Standard or CULT. CULT use gear oil and less sealing, which should reduce drag. It's only money.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

PsychoMike said:


> ...I'm sure they will dismiss all the other attributes of ceramics such as lower friction, longer life, smoother surfaces, never rust, higher spin rates and more...


If we were to choose bearings on that basis, then we would be using magnetic bearings. After all, they are better than ceramic bearings in almost every way (virtually no friction, higher maximum speed, effectively unlimited life, very high stiffness etc etc). In reality that wouldn't work well, because bicycle bearings are not the same as the high-speed applications those engineers are designing for.


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## Zen Cyclery (Mar 10, 2009)

Alright guys Im going to do my best to convey my understanding of the differences between ceramics and standard steel bearings. Ceramic bearings, especially expensive ones, tend to create less rolling resistance than the stock bearings that come in most wheelsets. Now before I go any further take note that although they tend to be smoother than their stock steel counterparts its not because they're ceramic, its because they're more expensive...

When assessing the efficiency of a bearing there are two factors to consider;
The first is the grade
The second is the ABEC rating

1 The grade of a bearing refers to the tolerance to which the components, specifically the balls, are machined to. The following are standard grades and the tolerances that they represent.

grade tolerance in mm
3 0.00008 
5 0.00013 
10 0.00025 
25 0.0006 
50 0.0012 
100 0.0025 
200 0.005 

So the lower the grade the higher the machining tolerances used on the bearing.

2 The ABEC rating is a direct measure of the bearings resistance at a set speed. So the bearing is spun up to a given number of RPMs and the loss of efficiency is recorded. The higher the ABEC rating the more efficient the bearing. The ratings are 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. 9s are the stuff that we like to shoot into space.

As you may suspect bearings with lower grades tend to have higher ABEC ratings. How does this jargon apply to the OP you ask...? Well high dollar ceramics tend to have less rolling resistance than their cheaper steel counterparts because they are of a lower grade and higher ABEC rating not because they're ceramic. 

Then this begs the question why do ceramic bearings exist in the first place? Well I have an interesting theory on that... When bicycle manufacturers first began to use cartridge bearings there were not a whole lot of options out there for bearing of the size that they needed. So there were a few manufacturers that stepped up and made some relatively inexpensive bearings for the use in wheels, BBs, ex. Being the geeks that cyclists are the especially avid ones soon began to realize that the bearings in the aforementioned components were not nearly as efficient as possible. This prompted a hunt for bearings that were smoother rolling. And alas! their search was fruitful. These first men unto the frontier of bearing upgrades found the bearings they were looking for! They had already been developed in the sizes they needed, by aeronautical engineers. Now because the components in the typical jet engine spin in excess of a few thousand RPMs a material that does not capacitate heat would be ideal to keep various parts of the bearing from melting. Hence ceramic was employed. It was because these initial high dollar bearings, that were bought by the brave men who came before us, were ceramic that the stigma of ceramic is better has stuck. 

Now... lets come back from that tangent and analyze what this means for us. Is ceramic better? ...Sometimes What is always better than ceramic? You guessed! A steel bearing with a low grade and a high ABEC rating. It will be just as smooth as that 250$ ceramic bearing but it will cost a fraction of the price and it will last much, much longer. 

The Alchemy ELF and ORC use such bearings.

Steel is real, dont forget it


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Zen, great post. i'm glad someone finally explained the whole 'ceramic' thing in such a detailed, in-depth fashion...great job!


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

Zen Cyclery said:


> As you may suspect bearings with lower grades tend to have higher ABEC ratings. How does this jargon apply to the OP you ask...? Well high dollar ceramics tend to have less rolling resistance than their cheaper steel counterparts because they are of a lower grade and higher ABEC rating not because they're ceramic.
> 
> Is ceramic better? ...Sometimes What is always better than ceramic? You guessed! *A steel bearing with a low grade and a high ABEC rating*. It will be just as smooth as that 250$ ceramic bearing but it will cost a fraction of the price and it will last much, much longer.
> 
> Steel is real, dont forget it


The average grade of steel bearings is 25. This grade is common on all factory built wheels. Higher end steel bearings may be Grade 10
Ceramic bearings can go as low as Grade 3 (while majority of ceramics are graded from 3 to grade 10)
Theres no such thing as a Grade 3 steel bearing. They just don't make them at that tolerance.

Steel may be real but Ceramics still are smoother and are better at reducing Cd and CoF

my choice: BAM ceramics would be my choice


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

bent steel said:


> I'm impressed with your steadfast belief that they're superior, much as I believe that Campy is clearly better than all others and that La Fin du Monde is the best value in beer, but try reading what others are saying and pay a little less attention to what "international studies" say. Me drinking that Canadian beer is an "international study" but you don't see me writing results about it, do you? Oh, wait...


You're comparing engineering science to personal opinions of beer values?

You can't deny the science and/or the white papers unless of course you haven't seen them.
This reminds me when watching the early to mid 90's TDF's where only a fraction of the pro teams believed in the engineering science of aero helmets on TT's and the benefits of fabrication. 
Like you they must have been too busy comparing personal opinions of local and imported brews. Now they all believe in the science.

When you write that white paper on your personal opinions of financial budget values of beer I'd be interested in reading it. I'll make sure I nominate it for a Natural Sciences and Engineering award


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

A little reading for you.

Technologies | Hub Technologies | Si3N4 (Silicon Nitride) Ceramic Bearings | Zipp - Speed Weaponry

1.6-2.0 watts @ 25mph. I love how they tell you that you would save the equivalent to 340 grams, but who is riding and 8% grade at 25mph??? Bearing drag is not a constant.

I don't know about you, but for me to cruise at 25mph I'm putting out north of 300watts. That puts the ceramic advantage at a whopping about .5%. 

Further reading.
The Princess and the Pea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-Eric


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

ergott said:


> A little reading for you.
> 
> Technologies | Hub Technologies | Si3N4 (Silicon Nitride) Ceramic Bearings | Zipp - Speed Weaponry
> 
> ...


Congrats to you. If they gave out Ph.D's for google/internet searches and knowledge you would pass, but barely.


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

PsychoMike said:


> Congrats to you. If they gave out Ph.D's for google/internet searches and knowledge you would pass, but barely.


Oh, that's right, you do this for a living. You are an engineer with first-hand experience in this field.

You come here with discrediting everyone that disagrees with you yet you never provide and evidence otherwise.:mad2:

I'm still waiting for you to show me how I'm wrong I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate a gain to be had that's greater than what Zipp suggests.

That's right, in place of a credible argument, you just attack people.

You're noise.

-Eric


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*A good read. . .*

Les roulements céramique, suite || Ceramic bearings, suite. | Roues Artisanales


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

QQUIKM3 said:


> Les roulements céramique, suite || Ceramic bearings, suite. | Roues Artisanales



Interesting. What are "classic" bearings? I'm not sure they are comparing Ceramic Speed to the best steel bearings you can get. Zipp compared high quality steel bearings to their ceramics and the differences were smaller.

The graphs and diagrams are all missing.

-Eric


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## PsychoMike (Apr 15, 2011)

ergott said:


> Oh, that's right, you do this for a living. You are an engineer with first-hand experience in this field.
> 
> You come here with discrediting everyone that disagrees with you yet you never provide and evidence otherwise.:mad2:
> 
> ...


Attacking people?? Every post you've ever made to this thread has been derogatory. Whats that word you used...poser?
The only BS noise here is the diatribe coming from you and attempts to turn this thread into a pi$$ing contest. Read my first post if you even know how to read.
Go start your own thread debating the disadvantages of ceramics. Oh wait a min, your previous post named the advantages as per Zipp.
So you do know the advantages yet you still wish to argue them. Nah, I don't think you do. You just know how to use google. How ignorant can you be.
I never stated any real world gains vs Zipp or anyone else. Only you did just now.
Try re-reading my posts. You seem to have a hard time at that 

I've seen enough white papers to know the differences. Zipp has seen enough white papers as well in order to write testimonials of claim on their website.

The only white paper you seem to know is google.com


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

How to Make Friends and Influence People.
by
PsychoMike.

-Eric


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

PsychoMike said:


> Theres no such thing as a Grade 3 steel bearing. They just don't make them at that tolerance.


Really? You might want to tell that to these guys.

Can't believe everything you read on the internet like this


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Cpk said:


> Really? You might want to tell that to these guys.
> 
> Can't believe everything you read on the internet like this


Unless you wrote this down on "white paper" he's not listening.:thumbsup:

-Eric


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## bent steel (Dec 28, 2007)

PsychoMike said:


> You're comparing engineering science to personal opinions of beer values?
> 
> You can't deny the science and/or the white papers unless of course you haven't seen them.
> This reminds me when watching the early to mid 90's TDF's where only a fraction of the pro teams believed in the engineering science of aero helmets on TT's and the benefits of fabrication.
> ...


Oh my dear god, I was trying to keep it somewhat worth reading, and you want to make it typical enginerd. Yes, all things scientific have proven infallible during the Tour, please.

If you think they're cool, and some nerd in a lab can back that up, carry on, spend your money, gain your imperceptible advantage. But when some guy who puts in the training whizzes by your fat, old ass while riding ten year old, worn out bearings, know that I'll be quietly laughing at you and your lightened wallet.


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