# 2008 Tarmac Expert frame vs 2009



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

Hi. I'm new to the Specialized line of road bikes and am finding them a little hard to understand. I'm particularly interested in the tarmac expert road bikes.

I don't understand the frame terminology such as Fact 8r vs Fact 11r, or IS technology.

Is the 2009 tarmac expert frame upgraded from 2008 or has it been downgraded? What are the differences?


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I mostly ignore the terminology. There is presumably some engineering underneath but they seem like marketing buzzwords to me. There's a whole brochure about FACT. "Triple monocoque" sounds like a contradiction. Some of the buzzwords like AZ1 seem in vogue for a year and then disappear.

However, I think the carbon level (eg. 6r, 8r, 10r, 11r) is more meaningful. Higher numbers mean stiffer, lighter and more money. You can see some of the higher numbers trickling down to lower models from year to year. My understanding is that Specialized tune the ride to get significantly stiffer as you spend more money, and that's an attribute that is meaningful and important to me.

The 2008 and 2009 Tarmac Expert frame look pretty similar. It seems that the 2009 has the 1.5" OS race (bearing at the lower part of the steerer) but not the 2008. Otherwise the carbon level is the same and personally I wouldn't worry about the buzzwords. The component level is similar but lots of changes in the details. I think there have been significant price increases for 2009 so if you could get a good deal on 2008 that might be the way to go.


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

Thanks, very helpful.


----------



## Sommy (Oct 7, 2008)

On a related note, I recently purchased an '09 Expert and love it. It's stiff to me, where I can zip up hills and such. In addition if I want to sit up and sprint, it just takes off. 

Very happy with my purchase.


----------



## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

The 2009 also has a stiffer rear triangle with taller chainstays and more seatstay spacing at the rear brake bridge.


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

If possble, it would be great to see pics of the 09 Expert, preferrably in my favorite, Team Red/carbon color.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

Go to the Specialized web-site and click on red/carbon. But there's nothing like seeing a new bike in the flesh, so perhaps you can pop down to your local Specialized LBS and go on a test ride? Personally, I like the gloss finishes rather than the carbon fiber. It'll help me forget that I'm riding downhill at 45mph on a frame made out of carbon atoms and petro-chemicals.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Actually, you aren't new to the Specialized line of road bikes. You've posted similar questions here a few months back - after numerous posts on the Trek forum regarding the new Madone 5.2, which you said you purchased.

Nothing wrong with collecting bikes, but I'm curious.. why the interest in Specialized at this juncture? Not happy with your Madone?


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

PJ352 said:


> Actually, you aren't new to the Specialized line of road bikes. You've posted similar questions here a few months back - after numerous posts on the Trek forum regarding the new Madone 5.2, which you said you purchased.
> 
> Nothing wrong with collecting bikes, but I'm curious.. why the interest in Specialized at this juncture? Not happy with your Madone?


I don't understand your point that I'm not new to this line of bikes. Does asking a 2nd question automatically make me an old timer?

Is it possible to be interested in more than one bike? If not, I'm at the wrong forum!


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

the sky above said:


> I don't understand your point that I'm not new to this line of bikes. Does asking a 2nd question automatically make me an old timer?
> 
> Is it possible to be interested in more than one bike? If not, I'm at the wrong forum!


On July 8th you started a thread asking the differences between the Madone and Specialized Tarmac AZ-1. On July 21st you started a thread asking the differences between 6r and 8r, and now this thread. So, tell me how I'm wrong in saying you aren't new to the Spec line of road bikes.

Also, I never said people couldn't be interested in (or own) more than one bike. To the contrary, I said _Nothing wrong with collecting bikes, but I'm curious.. why the interest in Specialized at this juncture? Not happy with your Madone? _

All seems pretty clear to me.


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

PJ352 said:


> On July 8th you started a thread asking the differences between the Madone and Specialized Tarmac AZ-1. On July 21st you started a thread asking the differences between 6r and 8r, and now this thread. So, tell me how I'm wrong in saying you aren't new to the Spec line of road bikes.
> 
> Also, I never said people couldn't be interested in (or own) more than one bike. To the contrary, I said _Nothing wrong with collecting bikes, but I'm curious.. why the interest in Specialized at this juncture? Not happy with your Madone? _
> 
> All seems pretty clear to me.


Is it possible to be new to a line of bikes and ask a third question? Please share with the forum how asking a third question makes one a seasoned veteran, knowledgable about all things?

Let me answer your question again. I am interested in both Trek and Specialized, both great road bikes.


----------



## jrosteck (Oct 28, 2007)

I guess a visit to the Specialized website would take all the fun and mystery out of the thread.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

the sky above said:


> Is it possible to be new to a line of bikes and ask a third question? Please share with the forum how asking a third question makes one a seasoned veteran, knowledgable about all things?
> 
> Let me answer your question again. I am interested in both Trek and Specialized, both great road bikes.


You are a seasoned veteran of asking question after question that can easily be answered with a modicum of effort on your part. That is your history here on RBR. If anyone doubts it, all they need do is search your posts. They speak for themselves. 

As far as sharing with forum members, I've already done that, so my goals have been met. Hopefully someone will avoid the pifalls that others have not.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jrosteck said:


> I guess a visit to the Specialized website would take all the fun and mystery out of the thread.


Amen to that! :thumbsup:


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

jrosteck said:


> I guess a visit to the Specialized website would take all the fun and mystery out of the thread.


Not really. It's not easy to tell the difference there between buzzwords used for marketing like "AZ1" and legitimate achievements. It could be argued that the website adds to the mystery.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

the sky above said:


> Not really. It's not easy to tell the difference there between buzzwords used for marketing like "AZ1" and legitimate achievements. It could be argued that the website adds to the mystery.


If I could find this, so could you.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/specialized/2006/FACT_Final_opt-1.pdf


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

Thanks for the link.


----------



## bike-geek (Mar 22, 2007)

PJ352 said:


> If I could find this, so could you.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/specialized/2006/FACT_Final_opt-1.pdf


I read this document last year. It's a great explanation of the process and shows the difference between triple monocoque and AZ1 (sequentially cured). I've been looking everywhere (including the spec website) for a description of their IS construction. The only thing I found was a link off of their 2008 tarmac sl2 page: http://www.specialized.com/bc/microsite/site.jsp?n=tarmacsl2 Click on the FACT link at the bottom. I now know that IS stands for "Integrated Structure."

It's interesting that in 2008, AZ1 was the big thing from expert up to the SL1. For 2009, AZ1 is completely gone and IS is the construction method is on the Pro and better frames. Was there a problem with the AZ1 frames?

If the top half of your lineup uses this new construction method, wouldn't it be a good idea to explain to the consumers what the hell it is? Maybe it's just marketing BS.


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

That's one of the main reasons I started this thread: If the 2009 Expert frames no longer have the AZ1 technology, but use "triple monocoque" construction, does that mean they've been downgraded, or improved? It seems they've been downgraded.


----------



## ksanbon (Jul 19, 2008)

The website and "buzzwords" are provided to create interest. It might be time to test ride both bikes and share your impressions with us. I, for one, would really appreciate it!


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bike-geek said:


> I read this document last year. It's a great explanation of the process and shows the difference between triple monocoque and AZ1 (sequentially cured). I've been looking everywhere (including the spec website) for a description of their IS construction. The only thing I found was a link off of their 2008 tarmac sl2 page: http://www.specialized.com/bc/microsite/site.jsp?n=tarmacsl2 Click on the FACT link at the bottom. I now know that IS stands for "Integrated Structure."
> 
> It's interesting that in 2008, AZ1 was the big thing from expert up to the SL1. For 2009, AZ1 is completely gone and IS is the construction method is on the Pro and better frames. Was there a problem with the AZ1 frames?
> 
> If the top half of your lineup uses this new construction method, wouldn't it be a good idea to explain to the consumers what the hell it is? Maybe it's just marketing BS.


Yes, I believe the document was authored sometime around '06, but as you say there's been almost no updates from Spec since then, especially relating to IS. It's amusing that they call IS integrated structure. Aren't they all??  

I've never read or heard any negatives relating to AZ-1 frames. I see the move to triple mono and IS as cost saving in the case of triple, and simplifying production processes going to IS. 

While I agree that Spec has more than its share of marketing hype, to their benefit they offer as much if not more info than other companies. Trek offers nothing under the guise of a secret OCLV process (sort of a 'just have faith' mentality) linked with white/ black/ red designations for its CF grades - not unlike 6r, 8r.... all it really means is higher grade/ higher strength/ lower weight for more $$. (And please, no flames from the Trek fans for that comment - they're very nice bikes as well).

Looking at the '09 line up, I have to say that the Tarmac Pro frameset at $1,900 is an excellent deal. Barely a notch down from their SL2, at a grand less.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

In the 2008 SL2 mini-site:

"The Tarmac SL2 FACT IS (Integrated Structure) frame integrates several different manufacturing methods to create an optimized structure that is incredibly light, unbeatably stiff and super-strong. Drawing on years of experience with composites, Specialized engineers combined monocoque and Az1 sequential curing fabrication methods to achieve breakthrough performance."

Reading between the lines I think this means that it is an incremental improvement and based on Az1. It came out first on the SL2 in 2008, and then completely replaced Az1 for 2009. It could well be a simplification in production process too as you mention.

I'm not sure why they dropped the Az1 name from the lexicon - perhaps it doesn't apply any more, or nobody pronounced it right, or they were infringing someone else's trademark, or marketing just wanted a new buzzword. We'll probably never know. Since IS came out first on the SL2 I'm inclined to think it is a good thing, or if it is a bad thing then it is so subtle that I won't ever know what I'm missing.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

PJ352 said:


> Looking at the '09 line up, I have to say that the Tarmac Pro frameset at $1,900 is an excellent deal. Barely a notch down from their SL2, at a grand less.


That was my conclusion too! And thanks for the advice you gave me in that thread. You can build up a better spec bike than the Expert for a similar amount of money, and you get FACT IS 10r carbon, and you don't get the lower-end triple monocoque fabrication process. My frame and components are on order now, and the first part arrived today!


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

ukbloke said:


> That was my conclusion too! And thanks for the advice you gave me in that thread. You can build up a better spec bike than the Expert for a similar amount of money, and you get FACT IS 10r carbon, and you don't get the lower-end triple monocoque fabrication process. My frame and components are on order now, and the first part arrived today!


You're welcome, glad to help! :thumbsup: 
Your plan (to build up a Pro) would be my plan IF I could rationalize the 'need' for another bike. Maybe next spring. 
Congrats on the new ride. Once built up pics and a ride review would be nice!


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

PJ352 said:


> Congrats on the new ride. Once built up pics and a ride review would be nice!


Thanks! Sure I can do that - though it will be hard to post anything approaching a neutral review with so much effort and money invested in the bike.


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

The different construction designations refer to different manufacturing processes. Triple-monocoque is versatile and reliable but has drawbacks in the need to add extra material and weight to achieve strength at the joints. Monocoque frames refer to those where loads are carried by the skin or outer layer and not via internal trusses. In the bike industry it refers to one-piece frames and not lug-and-tube constructions. Triple monocoque is where Speshy join 3 main monocoque pieces into a one-piece after they have been cured in the mold. The load-bearing top layer can be designed to direct loads away from stress-riser areas where needed.
Az1 refers to a more complex and expensive method of monocoque where up to 7 individual monocoque constructions are joined together. This permits greater control of stress-riser loads and tubes only carry tube loads and not both tube and joint loads as in triple-monocoque. The tubes are mitred and then joined with a jointing wrap with an additional top wrapping added before curing. This lessens the material needed in triple-monocoque with no strength sacrifice.
IS uses a complex combination of both processes using a light front section (top, head and down tube) mated to an Az1 rear end.
For 2009 the Az1 has been dropped on the basis of costs. This permits wider price points between the IS of the top frames and the triple-monocoque of the base models.


----------



## bike-geek (Mar 22, 2007)

Good information....where did you get it? This info should be easy to obtain for the interested (and maybe somewhat obsessed) consumer (meaning us).

So I guess in some sense the original question of whether the 2009 expert is a downgrade from last year is yes. On the other hand, I now feel like my 2007 expert is less out of date - lol...and it cost $1000 less then the 2009.


----------



## the sky above tar below (Mar 31, 2004)

You're fortunate to have the "outdated" version. I think the best advice I've gleened from this thread is to buy the Tarmac Pro frame and build it with Dura Ace 7800. Thanks for the help and information, there's some good stuff on this thread.


----------



## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

the sky above said:


> I think the best advice I've gleened from this thread is to buy the Tarmac Pro frame and build it with Dura Ace 7800.


Yes, indeed! DA7800 8 piece group-set is around $1000 on-line from reputable vendors (i.e. Shimano authorized internet retailers), but selling out fast as stores make way for the new stuff.


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

A friend built a 2009 Tarmac Pro with Sram Red and some lightish wheels at 7.2kg. The difference between the SL2 and Pro is in the carbon prepreg used - E630 on the SL2 vs E390 on the Pro.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyclequip said:


> A friend built a 2009 Tarmac Pro with Sram Red and some lightish wheels at 7.2kg. *The difference between the SL2 and Pro is in the carbon prepreg used - E630 on the SL2 vs E390 on the Pro*.


Just a FYI.. those designations are used to measure stiffness (or modulus of elasticity 'E') but not tensile strength. A couple of years back E390 was used for the Tarmac SL, but I've not seen similar info on the Pro. I'd be interested in your source(s) of info, only because E630 is a quantum leap.


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

PJ352 said:


> Just a FYI.. those designations are used to measure stiffness (or modulus of elasticity 'E') but not tensile strength. A couple of years back E390 was used for the Tarmac SL, but I've not seen similar info on the Pro. I'd be interested in your source(s) of info, only because E630 is a quantum leap.


Sure. But higher modulus or stiffness means in terms of a tube layup schedule, less material is required to achieve necessary strength as opposed to a lower modulus. Tensile strength, fatigue trength stiffness, price and weight are all factors considered when deciding on an application. 

All Fact 10r frames use E390 - this includes the '09 Pro. Currently the Tarmac SL2 is the only Spesh frame using E630. It was used to achieve the required design parameters of weight and stiffness. Unfortunately the price suffered as you'd expect.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyclequip said:


> Sure. But higher modulus or stiffness means in terms of a tube layup schedule, less material is required to achieve necessary strength as opposed to a lower modulus. Tensile strength, fatigue trength stiffness, price and weight are all factors considered when deciding on an application.


Agreed. I just wanted to point out that modulus of elasticity only measured stiffness. I believe almost all road frames use T700 (although Giant may use T800 on their higher end models) to obtain the desired tensile strength. 



cyclequip said:


> All Fact 10r frames use E390 - this includes the '09 Pro. *Currently the Tarmac SL2 is the only Spesh frame using E630. *It was used to achieve the required design parameters of weight and stiffness. Unfortunately the price suffered as you'd expect.


I'm not disputing you, but am curious where you got the info simply because I've never seen it documented.


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Specialized are a bit reclusive about some of their technical info - they are really a bit more about the cycling experience and getting the results as per their design parameters. This info is available if you speak to their technical people.
 But it is accurate I assure you.....


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Specialized are a bit reclusive about some of their technical info - they are really a bit more about the cycling experience and getting the results as per their design parameters. This info is available if you speak to their technical people.
 But it is accurate assure you.....


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyclequip said:


> Specialized are a bit reclusive about some of their technical info - they are really a bit more about the cycling experience and getting the results as per their design parameters. This info is available if you speak to their technical people.
> But it is accurate I assure you.....


Nothing personal, but if you knew me better you wouldn't offer such a thing as an assurance. Born a skeptic with a dash of cynicism thrown in, I don't believe tech documents at face value let alone many RBR posts.

You obviously do your homework, but until any claim is substantiated (a couple of different ways) I remain skeptical. My burden, I know. But the search (for info) is half the fun! 

Of course, if you were to offer this techies name and phone number.....


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

PJ352 said:


> Nothing personal, but if you knew me better you wouldn't offer such a thing as an assurance. Born a skeptic with a dash of cynicism thrown in, I don't believe tech documents at face value let alone many RBR posts.
> 
> You obviously do your homework, but until any claim is substantiated (a couple of different ways) I remain skeptical. My burden, I know. But the search (for info) is half the fun!
> 
> Of course, if you were to offer this techies name and phone number.....


Personally acquired info at Morgan Hill.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

cyclequip said:


> Personally acquired info at Morgan Hill.


Ok, I'll give them a call. And who would I ask for?


----------



## cyclequip (Oct 20, 2004)

Speak to Gabe Sullens.


----------

