# Help with lacing 16:8 wheel



## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

So I am about to do a 2x DS/ Radial NDS 16:8 drilled rear wheel, however I am a little stumped on whether or not to rotate the hub?

Do I lace like 8 spokes on the DS then rotate and do the other 8? Do I add the radial NDS after the DS has been laced?

I can't really find any info on how to lace a 16:8.

Thank you for your help


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> So I am about to do a 2x DS/ Radial NDS 16:8 drilled rear wheel, however I am a little stumped on whether or not to rotate the hub?
> 
> Do I lace like 8 spokes on the DS then rotate and do the other 8? Do I add the radial NDS after the DS has been laced?
> 
> ...


Well, you like, lace the first 8 like you said, then like lace the other 8 on the drive side. Then like lace the radial spokes after you've done the DS. You like have to rotate the hub, you know? 

Sorry, had to do it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

It will be the easiest wheel you ever did, next to a radial front wheel that is. As cx said - first 8, second eight, then the radials. The biggest problem you will have is getting the radials through the other spokes if you go heads-out (as I would do). And when you have done one spoke it's bob's yer uncle for the rest.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Wow.....I wish he'd post pics of the finished product.....


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Like, I didn't even notice like I did that. Bummer that my forum talk is that of a teenager.

So just to be clear, lace 8, then rotate, then lace 8, then radial?

Thanks again


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

NO, like lace 8, then like rotate, then like lace 8, then like radial? Come On!


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Like thanks.

On a completely random note to hijack my own thread, I just built up a 3x mtb wheel. I kept stress relieving it at every set of turning. I never heard any noise like I usually get and so probably like an idiot wound up my spokes, because I usually start taping a few of them towards the end, but I never got any noise, so I didn't,

Is it possible to build a wheel without wind up or stress relieving noise?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> Like thanks.
> 
> On a completely random note to hijack my own thread, I just built up a 3x mtb wheel. I kept stress relieving it at every set of turning. I never heard any noise like I usually get and so probably like an idiot wound up my spokes, because I usually start taping a few of them towards the end, but I never got any noise, so I didn't,
> 
> Is it possible to build a wheel without wind up or stress relieving noise?


Do you squeeze the spokes at the crosses are you're building and adding tension? I do that without thinking about it and I guess because of that I rarely get any noise when I'm done w/ the wheel. I actually don't squeeze the crosses but the parallels.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

I have done most of the methods listed on Mike's website. I usually go with the pressing down on the outside of the rim and rotating it. Easier on my dainty hands.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> I have done most of the methods listed on Mike's website. I usually go with the pressing down on the outside of the rim and rotating it. Easier on my dainty hands.


I have no way of proving it but I think that the more steps that are taken to bed spoke bends and nipples, stretch spokes past their normal tensioning stretch, unwind twist, straighten spoke path and probably a few other things that I can't think of right now, the better the wheels will be in their build quality. Oh sure there are diminished returns as more "optimization" methods are added and time is money to pro wheelbuilders and they have to factor that. But for us home wheelbuilders a few extra minutes invested in each wheel build might pay dividends.

Yes I know pro wheelbuilders who just use the "squeeze parallel spoke pairs" method and I'm sure their comeback rate for wheel returns is very low but if we can justify the time (a handful of minutes per wheel?) why wouldn't we spend it?

As purely anecdotal evidence I have not had one spoke ping or one wheel need re-truing (from normal riding) ever since I started employing all the steps outlined on my site. And that goes back 2-3 decades.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

So do you think I need to go back and unwind my spokes?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> So do you think I need to go back and unwind my spokes?


Like YEAH !!!


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks Mike. Just found it interesting you can have wind up, but no spokes pinging when you relieve them.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> Thanks Mike. Just found it interesting you can have wind up, but no spokes pinging when you relieve them.


What kind of spokes are you using?


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Sapim Race for the road and mtb wheels


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Interestingly, I don't hear pinging when I stress relieve wheels I've built myself.

However, I bought a set of wheels from Velomine once (Velomine doesn't stress relieve their wheels). They pinged like crazy when I stress relieved them!!


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

yourrealdad said:


> Thanks Mike. Just found it interesting you can have wind up, but no spokes pinging when you relieve them.


Unless I am completely mistaken, at least one source of the "ping" is the threads in the nipples "getting to a better place." If the threads are lubed you get a lot less ping.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Kerry Irons said:


> Unless I am completely mistaken, at least one source of the "ping" is the threads in the nipples "getting to a better place." If the threads are lubed you get a lot less ping.


That's probably why I never hear my own wheels ping. I always oil my spoke threads before I lace the wheels.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

I oil my threads and eyelets on all my wheels that i have built and have had some ping and others not ping. To ping or not to ping that is the question.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> To ping or not to ping that is the question.


Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the wobbles and broken spokes of outrageous wheels, or to take a spoke wrench against a sea of troubles, And by opposing wound-up and loose spokes, end them? THAT is the question. Jobst Brandt, Act III, Scene I.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

Windup is evidenced by movement, not necessarily sound. Movement can exist without sound. The absence of sound ≠ the absence of movement. Strive for the absence of unwanted movement. To move or not to move is the better question. 

As long as I'm on today's pedantic twat journey.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

November Dave said:


> Windup is evidenced by movement, not necessarily sound. Movement can exist without sound. The absence of sound ≠ the absence of movement. Strive for the absence of unwanted movement. To move or not to move is the better question.


Where's Hawking when you need him? He checked out too soon.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

So just laced the wheel up and something is very wrong. All my DS spokes are way too long. Did I lace the wheel wrong?
My lacing pattern is 2 DS spokes 2x and next to each other through the spoke holes and then one radial NDS next to them.

I just put the measurements into wheelpro's spoke calc again and got the same measurements.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

You need a calculator that accepts fractions.

The lengths required for 2:1 lacing differ from regular 2x or 3x.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

And can you lead me to one please?


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

I always use Damon Rinard's Spocalc, but you will need access to Excel to use it.
(use 2,25 for 2X and 3,31 for 3X)

Though if your spokes are long you have made a mistake measuring or lacing.
As you can see from the fractions 2:1 lacing requires spokes that are ~10% longer on the DS.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

yourrealdad said:


> So just laced the wheel up and something is very wrong. All my DS spokes are way too long. Did I lace the wheel wrong?
> My lacing pattern is 2 DS spokes 2x and next to each other through the spoke holes and then one radial NDS next to them.
> 
> I just put the measurements into wheelpro's spoke calc again and got the same measurements.


Did you do your own measurements for ERD and hub dimensions or did you trust the ones you found from the rim and hub makers? :idea:


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

I used my own measurements for ERD. Never had an issue with hub dimensions, especially from BHS.

Here are pics of how I laced them. Weird if they should be too short. Sorry for the side ways pics. Don't know why it does that.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

yourrealdad said:


> I used my own measurements for ERD.


:thumbsup:



yourrealdad said:


> Never had an issue with hub dimensions, especially from BHS.


"Never did" doesn't mean it never will.

Are you sure the spokes you're using are the length stated on the box?


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Lombard said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, I measured the spokes. It is also my understanding that to be off a bit on the hub does not greatly affect spoke length like ERD does. I can measure it again, but I think I have a lacing issue if the spokes should be shorter since I used Wheelpro's calculator.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

I calculate DS spoke length at 279.8 mm.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

So I tried opening that Excel spoke calculator, but it says Macros have been disabled and doesn't give me an option to enable them. Founds Macros under tools, but can't seem to get them to work. I honestly have no idea what I am supposed to be doing here. 

Also are my NDS lengths off as well or were those calculated correctly from wheelpro?

Any other way for me to get these spoke lengths?

Thanks,

Kevin


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

yourrealdad said:


> So I tried opening that Excel spoke calculator, but it says Macros have been disabled and doesn't give me an option to enable them. Founds Macros under tools, but can't seem to get them to work. I honestly have no idea what I am supposed to be doing here.
> Also are my NDS lengths off as well or were those calculated correctly from wheelpro?
> Any other way for me to get these spoke lengths?


Just use Roger Musson's Wheelpro spoke calculator and be done with it. It's as easy as pie. I just plain works and if it didn't, Roger would fix it because he wrote it. It has Help built into it and he's available for questions about its use as are some of us who use it.

https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/ 

BTW - don't trust any other way of getting spoke lengths other than measuring them yourself. Ever.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Mike T. said:


> Just use Roger Musson's Wheelpro spoke calculator and be done with it. It's as easy as pie. I just plain works and if it didn't, Roger would fix it because he wrote it. It has Help built into it and he's available for questions about its use as are some of us who use it.
> 
> https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/
> 
> BTW - don't trust any other way of getting spoke lengths other than measuring them yourself. Ever.


Mike that is what I used. Please tell me how to use it correctly?


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't think you need to enable macros. The spreadsheet works fine for me without but it may stop the ability to import rim and hub data from the database.

And Mike, I'm sure it's a great calculator but without the ability to use fractions in the crosses part it's useless for 2:1 lacing.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Also, you should have treated the DS as half of a 32 spoke wheel. It will take 16 spokes, remember.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Mackers nailed it. You treated the wheel as a 24 spoke wheel and technically it isn't. You need to do two separate calcs - one for the DS (enter 32 spokes!!!!!!!!!!!!) and one for the NDS - here I don't think it matters how many spokes you enter as they're radial and the length isn't affected by the spoke numbers.

Edit - and enter the "crosses" for the NDS as zero as the NDS is radial.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> Mackers nailed it. You treated the wheel as a 24 spoke wheel and technically it isn't. You need to do two separate calcs - one for the DS (enter 32 spokes!!!!!!!!!!!!) and one for the NDS - here I don't think it matters how many spokes you enter as they're radial and the length isn't affected by the spoke numbers.
> 
> Edit - and enter the "crosses" for the NDS as zero as the NDS is radial.


I'm now thinking would his existing spokes work if he re-build this wheel 3x on the DS?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Lombard said:


> I'm now thinking would his existing spokes work if he re-build this wheel 3x on the DS?


Only a spoke calculator can answer that Lom.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Mike T. said:


> Only a spoke calculator can answer that Lom.


Very true, Mike. We'll leave that up to the OP.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Doing the math on a McDonald's napkin I get 290 mm for 3X triplet laced. No guarantees 

As an aside, OP, this has got to be just about the flexiest rear wheel setup imaginable. That rim is flimsy and the hub is really just a regular hub drilled for triplet lacing. A true designed for triplet hub would have the left flange way further to the outside to make up for the lack of lateral stiffness caused by having only eight spokes there. Check out what f.i. Campy does with their G3 hubs.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Awesome, thank you this is the info I need. I will see if this works.

Not to worried about the wheel. I have yet to break any hub in my life and the only spoke I have broken were when the RD went through them. Those 340's I hear were more flimsy when they weighed 340g now they are 385g and I hear better things, plus mine actually came in at closer to 400g which is on par with other Alu rims. I got the rims for $30. I am not a clydes and these are going to be built specifiacally for an uphill TT and/or my wife who is 125# and maybe puts out that many watts.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Ok does this look right now? NDS seems to not change between the 24 vs 32 spoke count.

Same length spokes?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I would have thought that there would be a difference between 2x DS and radial NDS spoke lengths but maybe the extra length of a NDS spoke (due to the flange spacing from the hub centerline) evens out the crossed length of a DS spoke.

I have one radial NDS wheel in my collection. It's specs (I keep records!!)

18/9 spoking (DS to NDS).
3x DS, radial NDS.

Calculated lengths (Roger's calculator) inputting 36 DS spokes and radial NDS (spoke numbers don't matter with radial spoking)
DS - 281
NDS - 275.

I'll assume (without running the calculator again) that the 3x added the extra 6mm over and above your equal measurements.

I can't see that you inputted anything incorrectly. Go for it but keep notes! I print out Roger's wheel worksheets and file them away with copious notes written all over them.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

yourrealdad said:


> Ok does this look right now? NDS seems to not change between the 24 vs 32 spoke count.
> 
> Same length spokes?
> 
> View attachment 322370


They wouldn't, since they are radial. You can do 100 spokes; if it's radial, they will all be the same length. The problem with crossed spokes is the spacing of the spoke holes on the flange; more spokes, closer distances. Putting in 24 spokes assumes 12 on each side. With 2-crossing involved, this would be a longer distance to the flange hole, which is why your spokes are too long.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

I had to check my McD's napkin calculation so I plugged everything into Spocalc again 

Radial NDS is 279mm, 2X triplet DS is 281mm, and 3X triplet DS is 290mm (290.4mm rounded down, so napkincalc was 0.4mm off)

Spoke tension left will be 89% of spoke tension right, assuming NDS heads out.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Mackers said:


> I had to check my McD's napkin calculation so I plugged everything into Spocalc again
> 
> Radial NDS is 279mm, 2X triplet DS is 281mm, and 3X triplet DS is 290mm (290.4mm rounded down, so napkincalc was 0.4mm off)
> 
> Spoke tension left will be 89% of spoke tension right, assuming NDS heads out.


Um, why is yours different than mine?

Also how can the calculator account for the weird placing of the spokes, again unless I laced it wrong I have two DS spokes next to each other followed by a NDS then two more DS and then a NDS and so on. So it is not the usual DS, NDS, DS, NDS, DS, NDS pattern.

Won't that affect length?


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

It certainly will, which is why the Musson calculator is pretty much useless for calculating spoke lengths for triplet laced wheels and why I recommended Spocalc.

To account for the spoke placing you HAVE to use the 2,25 cross or the 3,31 cross for 2X and 3X respectively or you will end up with short spokes.

There are other tricks, f.e. 3X triplet spoke length is virtually the same as 48 spokes 5X (subtract 0.1mm) but the Musson calculator can't do that one either.


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## MudSnow (Sep 18, 2015)

First of all, you should lace 3X on the drive side. On the NDS use radial for rim brakes and 1X for disc brakes.


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## roger-m (Jul 1, 2015)

Mike T. said:


> Just use Roger Musson's Wheelpro spoke calculator and be done with it. It's as easy as pie. I just plain works and if it didn't, Roger would fix it because he wrote it. It has Help built into it and he's available for questions about its use as are some of us who use it.


As has been pointed out, the Wheelpro calculator cannot be used for 2:1 lacing.

When writing it, I did originally have some 2:1 code but then removed it, because if I remember when doing the analysis there are two options for the crossed side, and the amount of code was getting silly for a lacing pattern I've never built of evaluated, and since hub and rim manufacturers seem to be no longer supporting the pattern, I removed 2:1 from the calculator.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

roger-m said:


> As has been pointed out, the Wheelpro calculator cannot be used for 2:1 lacing.
> When writing it, I did originally have some 2:1 code but then removed it, because if I remember when doing the analysis there are two options for the crossed side, and the amount of code was getting silly for a lacing pattern I've never built of evaluated, and since hub and rim manufacturers seem to be no longer supporting the pattern, I removed 2:1 from the calculator.


All I know Roger is that I used it to do an 18/9, 3x & radial wheel and it worked out just fine. I was really no more than a 36 spoke wheel in one calculation and a radial in the other. Two separate calcs. But then I have a radial spoke between each crossed pairs of DS spokes and it sounds like the OP is doing something more fancy than that. Anything like that is beyond my simple mental capacity plus my interest level.

In my stable of current wheels, the Wheelpro calc is responsible for 3x/3x, 3x/2x, 2x/2x, 2x/1x and 3x/radial 2:1.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

So this would all be easier if I did a 3x? I am looking at about 6 rear wheels and they are all triplet and split between 2x and 3x.


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## ybgirnadnerb (Mar 15, 2012)

When I built a 2:1 wheelset I used the formula in Musson's book but I modified it. If you look at the equation one step of the equation assumes that the total number of holes in the rim is twice the number of spokes on a side. In 2:1 lacing this is not correct. This made a difference of 10mm in the spoke length calculation in my spreadsheet. I adjusted the equation and my wheels are rideable. But not perfect because I was doing other potentially disastrous experimental things--lacing 32 hole hub 2:1 with 24 spokes to a 24 hole rim by skipping every other flange hole, which I'm sure that no one here would advise me to do


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

So would this be easier if I laced it 3x?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Triplet rear, 16 spokes, 3X will be 288mm (ERD of 592.5mm). I have a calculator for triplet.

NDS is just radial.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

ergott said:


> Triplet rear, 16 spokes, 3X will be 288mm (ERD of 592.5mm). I have a calculator for triplet.
> 
> NDS is just radial.


Would you please be kind enough to share said calculator so that I can verify lengths myself? My measured ERD was 594
Thank you,

Kevin


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

yourrealdad said:


> Would you please be kind enough to share said calculator so that I can verify lengths myself? My measured ERD was 594
> Thank you,
> 
> Kevin


Using 48 spokes cross 5 in a spoke calculator:

resulting right side spoke length - ((3.14*right flange diameter)*0.0104). Thanks go out to Jeremy Parfitt (ALchemy hubs) for the formula.

I created a formula in a cell so the calculation pops up for me. I've been using spocalc for the longest time.


Hope that helps,


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

Ergott, or anyone else. Can you please check my math and such.

Spokecalc (express) gave me a spoke length of 290.6 for 48h 5x

So 290.6-((3.14*50.6)*.0104)=288.9

My first set of spokes were 284mm for 2x and were way long. Is the extra cross really going to take up the extra slack plus 5mm?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

That's the figure I get with the supplied ERD. I've used the calc for many different rim/hub combinations and it hasn't failed me. You have to be sure of that ERD.


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## yourrealdad (Jul 15, 2011)

ergott said:


> That's the figure I get with the supplied ERD. I've used the calc for many different rim/hub combinations and it hasn't failed me. You have to be sure of that ERD.


Measured it myself


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