# is Voeckler on something?



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

I hate to raise this question, but considering dramatic leaps in ability to climb, cover and attack the likes of Contador and Schlecks in one of the most challenging mountain stages. We have never seen him climb like that before, have we?


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

Maybe the other's aren't on something that they were on before.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

they are all on something...


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

I am by no means an optimist when it comes to pro cycling and doping, but I wouldn't be surprised if the big guns were taking it easy with the Rx in light of the whole Contador debacle.


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

Estimates are at around 5.9 watts per kg on today's climb. They did the main climb more than 3 minutes slower than Pantini in 1998. Probably more of a case of the elite riders cheating less and coming downto Voeckler's level - or they are just holding back for whatever reason.


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## AZPOWERHOUSE (Dec 16, 2008)

Op, you read my mind.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

No one has put in a big attack so far this year because they don't think that they can sustain it. The general confidence level is much lower than just a handful of years ago. Many a past GT winner would attack big on the first or second big mountain top finish to drop everyone, and maintain til the final day. This scenario is hopefully becoming less frequent.


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## gobes (Sep 12, 2006)

I'm more suspicious of Hushovd than Voeckler.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

wipeout said:


> Estimates are at around 5.9 watts per kg on today's climb. They did the course more than 3 minutes slower than Pantini in 1998. Probably more of a case of the elite riders cheating less and coming downto Voeckler's level - or they are just holding back for whatever reason.


I don't know if the times are relevant, since the top group was softpedaling a lot.

As to everyone coming down to Voeckler's level - there were a lot of other riders - dozens if not hundreds - at Voeckler's level. Whatever happened to them? Rolland is another phenom. If they weren't french, we'd be asking tougher questions.

Imagine this - Kolobnev and Iglinsky, or say Martin, Nierman and Morabito all of a sudden climbing better than Contador, Schleck and Basso, and a LOT better than the riders of their usual level. Would it be suspicious? I mean, we know dopers who couldn't quite pull this kind of changes.

Voeckler was around for a while, and he is now on a whole new level - much better than guys like Moncoutie and Casar, and vastly better than 170 other riders still in the race, except for maybe 5 of about equal ability, and has a super-domestique who is almost as good. It's almost as if EVERYONE except Voeckler and Rolland were doping, and now they ALL stopped and dropped a few levels.

It's all very weird, that's all I am saying. How many of you expected to see Voeckler attack and open up a bit of a gap on all major GC contenders, instead of either barely hanging on or getting dropped entirely by a few minutes?

If we are ever allowed to cast doubt based on sudden, unexplained and dramatic improvements after a fairly long career at an entirely lower level of performance, this is IT!


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

gobes said:


> I'm more suspicious of Hushovd than Voeckler.


I am not. 
He is a classics hard man and his stage win was a typical classics win with some exceptionally good tactics and solid descending - but nothing out of the ordinary for a guy his caliber. So he used his strong sprint ability to surge past Moncoutie and then Roy, I'd be surprised if he wasn't able to do it.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

BAi9302010 said:


> No one has put in a big attack so far this year because they don't think that they can sustain it. The general confidence level is much lower than just a handful of years ago. Many a past GT winner would attack big on the first or second big mountain top finish to drop everyone, and maintain til the final day. This scenario is hopefully becoming less frequent.


Granted - but then the lead group should contain a whole bunch of other guys of Voeckler's ability, and it didn't.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Yeah he is on something. 
On his bike busting his @ss 6 hours a day


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

He definately is on something. THE YELLOW JERSEY! He is a frenchman and this is the ultimate exposure for someone in France. He is riding for his country who has basically been laughed out of their home race for the last twenty years.


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## masfish1967 (Mar 3, 2010)

yep - on dope and would not be suprised if the race organizers are aware as well. If he holds on through the alps and into Paris then i believe it is all a sham.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

masfish1967 said:


> yep - on dope and would not be suprised if the race organizers are aware as well. If he holds on through the alps and into Paris then i believe it is all a sham.


Sorry you don't believe in miracles


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

55x11 said:


> I hate to raise this question, but considering dramatic leaps in ability to climb, cover and attack the likes of Contador and Schlecks in one of the most challenging mountain stages. We have never seen him climb like that before, have we?


I have not seen any dramatic increase in his ability to climb. He made it over the final climb yesterday 2 minutes faster then 2004 when he was a Neo-Pro. Given he is much better rider then he was 7 years ago this is not surprising. So far he has not shown any huge leap in form 

A point to note is since he was 19 years old Voeckler in addition to UCI and WADA testing has been subject to the FFC's longitudinal testing program. For most of the 2000's out of competition testing was a rarity for Pros, Voeckler was tested 12 times a year by the program. 

This extensive testing provides a long term profile of riders that in most cases stretches back to prior to their Professional career. It is also interesting to note that on the UCI created a list of suspicion prior to last years Tour. They based it on 3 years of blood values from dozens of tests. Voeckler's values rated a 0 on this list. 

It is certainly possible that he is using something but at this point there is little evidence of it


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

He's just putting in the defense of his life and he's NOT planning on taking it to Paris. He basically got lucky with another day in Yellow since the GC boys were a little too busy marking other riders. I don't think they were trying to drop him because they also don't see him as a threat for Paris.


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## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

BAi9302010 said:


> Maybe the other's aren't on something that they were on before.


I think this is exactly what is going on.... And the magic of the yellow jersey is Voeckler's drug... I was at the 2004 tour and witnessed his incredible 10 days in yellow and I've been a big fan ever since...


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

den bakker said:


> Sorry you don't believe in miracles


Den, this one and your ohter "on my bike, 6 hours a day" post are hilarious!


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

I put in my vote for, "he's not better by doping, the Big Guns are down to his level by NOT doping (or doping less)". And, yeah, he's French, and riding out of his mind. And, also yeah, none of the (alleged) Big Guns seems willing or able to dominate. Is that a sign of clean(er) blood? Maybe. Is that a sign of an attack of the whimpies? Definitely.

Anyways, I hope TV holds the yellow until someone more WORTHY takes it from him.


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

Yes, a Colnago C59.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/tour-de-france-tech-thomas-voecklers-colnago-c59-30953/


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

He did the same in the 2004 tour. Back then even Lance commented on how he did not expect him to keep it that long but he held on. Now he is more experienced has won a number of races this year and he is French and wearing the yellow jersey. He is riding like there is no tomorrow. Did you see his interviews? Even 10 min after he was still breathing hard. Lastly, even he knows he will not win. It is just a matter of how long he can keep it.


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## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

gobes said:


> I'm more suspicious of Hushovd than Voeckler.


Drugs don't make you descend at 112km/hr (69mph). Thor's my boy!


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## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

Also, Hadn't Voekler kept the yellow jersey for ten stages straight in another tour?


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## ClancyO (Mar 20, 2011)

He's won something like 8 races so far this year coming into the tour - he's just in top form. And since he's not considered a climber, or a threat, they let him go in a break. Some misfortune in the back allowed the break a bigger gap than normal ... and here we are. If you watched him in 04 like I did, you know that he always rides with heart.. Barring something catastrophic, he's on the podium in Paris.

If there is one guy to suspect - it would be Jeremy Roy. That dude has spent 4-5 days off the front and almost won one. I don't know where he's finding the energy..


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

psycleridr said:


> *He did the same in the 2004 tour.* Back then even Lance commented on how he did not expect him to keep it that long but he held on. Now he is more experienced has won a number of races this year and he is French and wearing the yellow jersey. He is riding like there is no tomorrow. Did you see his interviews? Even 10 min after he was still breathing hard. Lastly, even he knows he will not win. It is just a matter of how long he can keep it.


No he didn't. Voeckler was losing time in 2004 every time the road pointed upwards:

Lost 4 minutes on stage 12
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage12

Lost another 4:+ minutes on stage 13
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage13

Loses another 9:30 on stage 15
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage15

Now he is hanging on with best climbers, in small group of 5-7, which drops everyone else.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

gaspi101 said:


> Also, Hadn't Voekler kept the yellow jersey for ten stages straight in another tour?


he was losing huge chunks of time on every mountain-top finish (4 min, 4 min, 9 min)


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## wipeout (Jun 6, 2005)

55x11 said:


> he was losing huge chunks of time on every mountain-top finish (4 min, 4 min, 9 min)


Yes, but why? The competition was much more aggressive in 2004.


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## ToF (Jan 18, 2008)

wipeout said:


> Estimates are at around 5.9 watts per kg on today's climb. They did the main climb more than 3 minutes slower than Pantini in 1998. *Probably more of a case of the elite riders cheating less and coming downto Voeckler's level *- or they are just holding back for whatever reason.


Voeckler himself seems to believe this (or at least likes this narrative): "The Frenchman noticed things had changed since that time. 
'On today's form, I would not have been able to follow Armstrong or Basso in 2004,' he told a news conference. 
'Even if it's hard to compare, I think that things have been improving in cycling since I turned professional.' "


http://www.universalsports.com/news-blogs/article/newsid=542709.html


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

wipeout said:


> Yes, but why? The competition was much more aggressive in 2004.


And doped to the gills to boot. There seems little doubt the power output of the top GC guys has dropped over the last couple of years as the testing became more rigorous.

So if you factor in a drop in the power of the top guys, and a little improvement from Voeckler and the fact that no one put down the hammer and sustained it for more than a handful of seconds, it's not all that surprising that Voeckler was able to hang on.

Of course he could be doping but it seems of all the guys at the front he'd be one of the least likely for a number of other reasons as well.

It should be kept in mind that probably any of the top GC riders pre-2005 or maybe just a couple of years ago would be riding away from this bunch and putting minutes into them. Or even some of these same riders in their prior incarnations (e.g. Basso and Contador).


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

This is what happens when a team like Radio Shack is forced to ride clean.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

DZfan14 said:


> This is what happens when a team like Radio Shack is forced to ride clean.


It's a shame ol' "Big George" doesn't have those extra red blood cells so he can burn it up the final climb for Cadel until he's shed all but the top GC men


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## ZoSoSwiM (Mar 7, 2008)

He's riding like a man possessed.. I'm guessing the playing field is simply a lot more level than it has been in other years. No one seems like a god this year..


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

On a side note, I think if the breakaway didn't get hit by a damn car, I think they could have built up enough of a lead that Voekler would be a GC contender by breakaway. Doesn't seem to happen very often in grand tours.


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## BAi9302010 (Mar 7, 2002)

wipeout said:


> Yes, but why? The competition was much more aggressive in 2004.


Voeckler was also an inexperienced 25 year old in 2004, in his first(?) Grand Tour. Now, tens of thousands of miles ridden and dozens of races won later, he's a 32 year old seasoned pro who knows how to read a race and ride within his limits.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

It's rather interesting how a thread about a rider doping has certain members taking a completely different tone then they usually do about doping riders (well mainly certain riders) and how it gets turned into a thread about those certain riders.

Obsession? I'd say yes.

(and no, this is not in defense of any riders, so don't bother with your attack dog routine, this is just pointing out something very obvious)

I also find it interesting that there is no discussion/thread about Contador suddenly getting strong after the rest day.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

nedbraden said:


> I also find it interesting that there is no discussion/thread about Contador suddenly getting strong after the rest day.


I'm sure it has nothing to do with _resting_ on a _rest_ day.


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## trav99ss (Jun 15, 2010)

nedbraden said:


> I also find it interesting that there is no discussion/thread about Contador suddenly getting strong after the rest day.


I also found that pretty interesting as well. At the very least, with Contador we have a reason to be suspicious. He's looked off-form for the whole tour, then boom, right after the rest day he looks 100% better and goes straight on the attack. Funny thing is, I told the wife as we were watching the rest day show on Versus, that I wouldn't be surprised if Contador was a new man after the rest day. 

I actually kinda like the way Bert has ridden the last two stages, made for some excitement. But, I also can't watch his sudden turn around in form without second guessing it either.

For the record, I'm with those who are giving Thor and Little Tommy Voeckler the benefit of the doubt.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

spade2you said:


> I'm sure it has nothing to do with _resting_ on a _rest_ day.


Yet, on this forum, people will claim someone is doping if they win a stage, even if they ride for a very clean team, or someone is wearing yellow and riding tough, just like he did before or someone rides for a team with DS people don't like or a team from a country they don't like.

The thinking around here is very convenient.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

nedbraden said:


> It's rather interesting how a thread about a rider doping has certain members taking a completely different tone then they usually do about doping riders (well mainly certain riders) and how it gets turned into a thread about those certain riders.
> 
> Obsession? I'd say yes.
> 
> ...


Well, I wasn't the one who brought up Contador, and I am not sure I understand your post 100%, but you gotta admit, it's not like it is coming out totally out of the blue. Just as a reminder, he may still lose his TdF title, his Giro title, and whatever happens in this year's TdF due to... you guessed it... doping infraction... which happened at Tour de France... after rest day... Where he struggled early on and then came back strong after the rest day...

I think Contador would be stupid to dope considering the axe hanging over his head. But I also thought Ricco would be stupid to dope for 2nd time.


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

Voeckler has hung with the group that has dropped Contador, Sanchez, Cunego.... And still has a domestique with him.... hmmm...... not sayin' just sayin'.


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## Red Sox Junkie (Sep 15, 2005)

wiz525 said:


> Voeckler has hung with the group that has dropped Contador, Sanchez, Cunego.... And still has a domestique with him.... hmmm...... not sayin' just sayin'.


I thought the same. Voeckler outclimbing Alberto on a stage with 3 hc climbs? I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt and would be shocked if Thor was riding on anything other than bread and water.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

wiz525 said:


> Voeckler has hung with the group that has dropped Contador, Sanchez, Cunego.... And still has a domestique with him.... hmmm...... not sayin' just sayin'.


http://www.sportsscientists.com/
and
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/07/tour-de-france-biological-passport.html


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## wiz525 (Dec 31, 2007)

asgelle said:


> http://www.sportsscientists.com/
> and
> http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/07/tour-de-france-biological-passport.html


sure, i've seen these. and am very familiar with the passport and erythropoiesis. (i'm a molecular biologist who actually works on erythropoiesis) and it's great to see global reductions in % of abnormal reticulocyte #. 

but it still doesn't affect my opinion of two guys on the same team dropping Contador and Sammy. unfortunately, this sport has trained me that when something looks unreal, it most likely is; sadly. 

i hope TV is clean. the suffering on his face at the end would suggest so. just have doubt, like most (most likely).


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## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

Is doping really so bad???? We take energy bars, electrolytes, tons of pasta the day before, etc. I don't see it as much different. As long as they don't do anything unhealthy...


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## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

LOL....I'm totally kidding by the way...My sense of humor really doesn't come accross well on text...


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## cmdrpiffle (Mar 28, 2006)

*Yes, class, talent, and the Yellow Jersey!!!*

Sorry, didn't have time to read the thread and my response may be echoed numerous times there.

Cheers!


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

wiz525 said:


> but it still doesn't affect my opinion of two guys on the same team dropping Contador and Sammy. unfortunately, this sport has trained me that when something looks unreal, it most likely is; sadly.


As a scientist, you should know you have to consider the totality of the evidence and not look at certain facts or data in isolation. In addition to the bio passport and performance data from this year's tour, there is also the more than ten year history of Voekler's reputation and that of French teams and authorities as being outspoken anti-doping advocates. Add to that the migration of foreign riders out of France to certain other countries in the last decade or so to indicate that France takes anti-doping seriously, and the weight of evidence strongly suggests the field coming back to the performance of clean riders rather than someone like Voekler suddenly being on some program.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

wiz525 said:


> but it still doesn't affect my opinion of two guys on the same team dropping Contador and Sammy. unfortunately, this sport has trained me that when something looks unreal, it most likely is; sadly.


It wasn't really obvious to you that Contador was fatigued from the Giro and injured? Maybe I was watching another race.

Even Bertie admits being about to pack it all in:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...t-tour-de-france-after-karpets-bombing_186303

Also, IIRC, Sanchez was saying he was struggling badly at that point.

Lots of people are saying things like "TV was climbing faster than XX or YY". So? That's how pro bike racing works. If you're not looking for GC time, then you ride at your own pace to conserve energy for another day. No point drilling yourself to lose 10 mins when you could lose 20 and save some for trying to get in the break the next day.

And does nobody think that they might ride that last few k a bit harder if they were 20s off the front in the Nowhereville Cat 4? I guess yellow in the Tour might also make you push yourself just a little bit more than usual, no?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

asgelle said:


> As a scientist, you should know you have to consider the totality of the evidence and not look at certain facts or data in isolation. In addition to the bio passport and performance data from this year's tour, there is also the more than ten year history of Voekler's reputation and that of French teams and authorities as being outspoken anti-doping advocates. Add to that the migration of foreign riders out of France to certain other countries in the last decade or so to indicate that France takes anti-doping seriously, and the weight of evidence strongly suggests the field coming back to the performance of clean riders rather than someone like Voekler suddenly being on some program.


True....and add that many top French riders, like Jalabert, suddenly changed their residency to countries that did not do longitudinal testing.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

MattSoutherden said:


> It wasn't really obvious to you that Contador was fatigued from the Giro and injured? Maybe I was watching another race.
> 
> Even Bertie admits being about to pack it all in:
> 
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...t-tour-de-france-after-karpets-bombing_186303


Which gets back to the point I made earlier. Somehow after nearly packing it in Contador becomes super strong and we are going on and on about Voeckler.

I suppose I will get negative rep from robdamanii calling me a "fanboi"...again.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

nedbraden said:


> Somehow after nearly packing it in Contador becomes super strong and we are going on and on about Voeckler.


Assuming facts not in evidence. No data shows Contador ever becoming super strong. On the contrary, the analysis I've seen from his Alpe d'Huez ride shows just the opposite, e.g., http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/07/tour-2011-alp-dhuez-leaving-mountains.html


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

asgelle said:


> Assuming facts not in evidence. No data shows Contador ever becoming super strong. On the contrary, the analysis I've seen from his Alpe d'Huez ride shows just the opposite, e.g., http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/07/tour-2011-alp-dhuez-leaving-mountains.html


So after nearly having to quit he was not putting the final podium into trouble or at least forcing them to dig deep? He wasn't forcing people out of the group by putting up a big pace?

It's funny how someone will give me negative rep and call me a "fanboi" when it's others doing everything they can to protect the virtue of Alberto.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)




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## LouD-Reno (Mar 28, 2006)

den bakker said:


> Yeah he is on something.
> On his bike busting his @ss 6 hours a *week*


There, I fixed it for you....


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

nedbraden said:


> Which gets back to the point I made earlier. Somehow after nearly packing it in Contador becomes super strong and we are going on and on about Voeckler.
> 
> I suppose I will get negative rep from robdamanii calling me a "fanboi"...again.


I don't think Contador was ever close to packing it in. Notice that part is outside of quotes in the story you linked to.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

nedbraden said:


> It's funny how someone will give me negative rep and call me a "fanboi" when it's others doing everything they can to protect the virtue of Alberto.


I don't think it's protecting anyone's virtue to point out that your analysis is very selective in what facts are considered and seems to fall apart when all the available information is factored in. If you want to make your case considering the totality of the evidence, I'd be very interested in your conclusions.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

asgelle said:


> I don't think it's protecting anyone's virtue to point out that your analysis is very selective in what facts are considered and seems to fall apart when all the available information is factored in. If you want to make your case considering the totality of the evidence, I'd be very interested in your conclusions.


Are you saying Alberto was not hurting and unable to stay with the leaders and then came back to put the hurt on everyone?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

nedbraden said:


> Are you saying Alberto was not hurting and unable to stay with the leaders and then came back to put the hurt on everyone?


Yes, his performance relative to his competitors did change slightly throughout the tour. He lost a few seconds in the Pyrenees, then gained a few in the Alps.


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## nedbraden (Jun 13, 2011)

SilasCL said:


> Yes, his performance relative to his competitors did change slightly throughout the tour. He lost a few seconds in the Pyrenees, then gained a few in the Alps.


My bad, I must have been getting some alternative feed of the Tour.


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## ToF (Jan 18, 2008)

Yeah he is, your Mom.


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## gaspi101 (May 12, 2011)

ToF said:


> Yeah he is, your Mom.


Lmao...good one.


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

SilasCL said:


> Yes, his performance relative to his competitors did change slightly throughout the tour. He lost a few seconds in the Pyrenees, then gained a few in the Alps.


4 Stages in the Alps. Contador vs Cadel and Andy

St 17 - Gap

Cadel - Lost 3s
Andy - Gained 18s

St 18 - Pinerolo

Cadel - ST
Andy - ST

St 19 - Galibier

Cadel - Lost 1:35
Andy - Lost 3:50

St 20 - Alpe-d’Huez

Cadel - Gained 34s
Andy - Gained 34s

Total in Alps

Cadel - *Lost 1:04*
Andy - *Lost 2:58*

Clearly a miracle recovery.


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*voeckler*

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9589&page=24

this doesn't answer specifically about french ridersbut about french teams. draw your own conclusions.


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