# Carbon Frame question - FACT 10r vs 8r



## mdutcher

What is the real difference between the FACT 10r and the 8r frame? I currently have a road bike with the FACT 8r carbon frame. Is the 10r frame that much better? Do you guys have some facts behind the frame technology here? Please do share.

Thanks!


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## nismo73

Search the FAQ section of the specialized website for an explanation of the differences. I tried to post a link, but didn't work correctly.


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## PaulRivers

It completely depends on which bike you own. What bike do you own? A Tarmac? A Roubaix?


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## PJ352

nismo73 said:


> Search the FAQ section of the specialized website for an explanation of the differences. I tried to post a link, but didn't work correctly.


You're right. The links don't work because you actually search within the FAQ section. Fortunately, cut and paste still works! :thumbsup: 

*FACT Carbon ratings *

*Question *
What is the difference between 10/9/8 carbon that you use on the different level bikes? Is it thinner, lighter, different layup, etc? 

*Answer *
The "R" value is an indication of the level of modulus of the carbon fibers; the higher the value, the higher the modulus. Modulus simply refers to the stiffness of the individual fibers in the carbon matrix, which will dictate the overall stiffness and efficiency of the material. As modulus increases, we are able to use less material to produce a frame of equal or greater stiffness than that of frame utilizing lesser modulus fibers. 

As a general rule, each higher level of carbon will decrease frame weight 100-150 grams, and provide a slightly stiffer, snappier ride. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Carbon Frames *

*Question* 
Could you please describe the differences between the various methods of your carbon frame builds? What does a triple monocoque construction versus AZ1 or FACT IS mean and what makes one better than another? 
Thanks 

*Answer *
This is a very complex discussion, and at our internal education classes for dealers, this question is about a 2 hour class. 

Basically-- Triple Monocoque is the method most manufactures use, the bike is made in 3 separate pieces, the main triangle, chainstays & seatstays, that are then bonded together. This gives a really nice bike, and it's a reliable method of fabrication. However it is not the ultimate way to make a bike. 

Then we developed FACT IS & AZ1 construction, this is when the whole bike is constructed as one piece in a mold. 250+ pieces of carbon are hand laid, and the result is absolutely tremendous performance. It does have a high price tag, because many times after a bike "bakes" the result is not 100% perfect. 

Another thing to consider is the carbon type that a bike is made with. 

The "R" value is an indication of the level of modulus of the carbon fibers; the higher the value, the higher the modulus. Modulus simply refers to the stiffness of the individual fibers in the carbon matrix, which will dictate the overall stiffness and efficiency of the material. As modulus increases, we are able to use less material to produce a frame of equal or greater stiffness than that of frame utilizing lesser modulus fibers. 

As a general rule, each higher level of carbon will decrease frame weight 100-150 grams, and provide a slightly stiffer, snappier ride. 

Our 11r carbon bikes are like formula 1 race cars. They are absolutely the best bikes that can be made, with the highest quality materials.


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## PaulRivers

fyi, I felt that the difference between 8r and 10r carbon varied depending on the bike - on the Tarmac a higher number meant a smoother more vibration absorbing ride, on the Roubaix a higher number meant a stiffer more responsive ride.


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## ukbloke

It would appear to be a Roubaix.

The 10r is going to be slightly lighter, a bit stiffer, and somewhat better at absorbing road vibrations. This is the sort of thing that one worries about a lot when buying a bike. However, having built my bike (a 10R Tarmac) it is now something that I never even think about when riding it. Personally I doubt that these improvements are enough to justify upgrading your frame or bike, unless you have money to burn. So unless you are having a significant problem in one of these areas (weight, stiffness or vibration) on your rides or you need to upgrade frame for some other reason anyway (eg. sizing), I'd keep your money in your wallet.

If you really want to find out for sure whether the improvements are meaningful to you, you should head down to the LBS and do some back-to-back test rides and try to account for wheel/tire differences. Trying out new bikes is always fun.


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## PaulRivers

ukbloke said:


> It would appear to be a Roubaix.
> 
> The 10r is going to be slightly lighter, a bit stiffer, and somewhat better at absorbing road vibrations. This is the sort of thing that one worries about a lot when buying a bike. However, having built my bike (a 10R Tarmac) it is now something that I never even think about when riding it. Personally I doubt that these improvements are enough to justify upgrading your frame or bike, unless you have money to burn. So unless you are having a significant problem in one of these areas (weight, stiffness or vibration) on your rides or you need to upgrade frame for some other reason anyway (eg. sizing), I'd keep your money in your wallet.
> 
> If you really want to find out for sure whether the improvements are meaningful to you, you should head down to the LBS and do some back-to-back test rides and try to account for wheel/tire differences. Trying out new bikes is always fun.


Lol, yeah - you built up the bike with the top end carbon and now you never think about the carbon level - well no kidding, haha.  It's like you built up a car with really nice suspesion and now you never think about the suspension - it's because it's great suspension that's the reason you never think about it, that's the point! 

I own a 2007 Specialized Tarmac that I believe also has 10r carbon, and I also never think about it. I rode my friends bike for a little while (5 minutes max) and I was like "What's this really strange tingly feeling in my hands?" It actually did take me a while to puzzle it out - I'm just so used to riding my top end carbon frame, I've become completely unaware that bikes even have those subtle road vibrations that make your hands hurt! (To be fair, his was an aluminum bike with a carbon fork, not a different level of carbon).

The fact that you don't notice it means that it's working.    

That being said, it's a lot less of a concern for me in a Roubaix because a Roubaix starts comfy then gets stiffer. I find it noticeable (maybe I have weak wrists or something) on the Tarmacs which start stiff then get more vibration absorbing as you go up.


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## ukbloke

PaulRivers said:


> Lol, yeah - you built up the bike with the top end carbon and now you never think about the carbon level - well no kidding, haha.


Good point  The 10r is near top-of-the-line carbon, though it has been pushed down to Expert level, as well as Pro, in the 2010 Tarmacs. Of course the 2009 SL2 has the 11r, and now there's the 2010 SL3 also with 11r. My point was really that we obsess over these fine details when researching bikes, but I'm not convinced that it really makes all that much difference to the average rider on the road. 

On the other hand, it might be that I'm not all that sensitive to ride quality differences. I switch back and forth between my Tarmac Pro and an off-brand Aluminum, carbon fork, carbon stays bike, and I don't even particularly notice the difference in ride quality going in either direction. The one thing I notice is that the Al bike handles like complete crap on twisty descents and that's all due to geometry rather than materials.


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## dave2pvd

I often assume that the best value in a product line up is 'second best'. Think of SRAM Force, Shimano Ultegra and.....Specialized Tarmac Pro SL. 

It's hard to accept the >50% markup for the SL3.


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## bykejon

I know this is an old thread but it's the closest thing to an answer I've found.

I am trying to decide between a new 2013 Tarmac Expert Ultegra or a 2006 Tarmac Pro w/new Sram Red components. The 2006 came with a 6r frame. is there a big difference between 10r and 6r? (6r being older than 8r)


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## ukbloke

bykejon said:


> I know this is an old thread but it's the closest thing to an answer I've found.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a new 2013 Tarmac Expert Ultegra or a 2006 Tarmac Pro w/new Sram Red components. The 2006 came with a 6r frame. is there a big difference between 10r and 6r? (6r being older than 8r)


I haven't tried either bike, but I would expect a massive difference with 7 years worth of frame development. There's no question in my mind that the new bike is the better choice (including warranty). Not even close.


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## bykejon

I thought the 10r frame technology had been around since 2009 though? Do you think they've changed the technology behind the 10r in the last 4 years?


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## ukbloke

bykejon said:


> I thought the 10r frame technology had been around since 2009 though? Do you think they've changed the technology behind the 10r in the last 4 years?


The 10r designation has not changed since 2009, but the materials, lay-up, construction techniques, weight, frame design, etc. improve incrementally every couple of years. This is reflected in the "SL" designation. In 2009 we had SL (no number), now they are up to SL3 and SL4. That's 2 or 3 generations of improvement. Also my recollection is also that 2009 was a major change in frame design for Specialized and that frames prior to that were in particular pretty flexy.

Mark.


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## bykejon

This has been very helpful. Much appreciated!
I am new to Specialized frames
Thanks


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## SNS1938

ukbloke said:


> ... Also my recollection is also that 2009 was a major change in frame design for Specialized and that frames prior to that were in particular pretty flexy.
> 
> Mark.


Earlier, Specialized had Tarmac and Roubaix. Tarmac was the 'racers' bike, and Roubaix was the 'classics/older less flexible riders bike'. (Note that for a fair few years after the Roubaix was released, the Pro teams still used Tarmac's at Pari-Robaix even).

Later (I guess around 2009?), the Venge came out, and the Tarmac became more 'GC/Climbers' and the Venge more 'sprinter/powerful racer'. The Roubaix changed a little SL3 to SL4 too, becoming 'a little closer to the Tarmac'.

Off the top of my head, did the 2013 Tarmac also have internal cables? The 2006 wouldn't have them. Also the 2013 might more readily accommodate Di2 cables if that's an issue?

I'm on a Tarmac SL2, and like the bike a lot (although I feel a Roubaix SL4 would suit my riding more than my Tarmac SL2). I've never had the opportunity to ride a Venge, Tarmac and Roubaix back to back to verify the opinions I've gleaned from articles/forums on the differences.


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