# Questions about sprinting



## WEG (Nov 6, 2005)

Hi everyone 

I know that these are going to sound like dumb questions ... but here goes

I am mostly a climber type but I have been doing some informal crits with a group of 10-15 Cat 4s on Thu AM

Do most sprint in the saddle or out of the saddle?

What gear should one start in? A lower gear so that the burst of speed is higher - and may require shifting in the sprint, or a lower gear that may be harder to get on top of, but will be ideal when up to speed?

One thing I have noted is when sprinting out of the saddle I find that the first couple of pedal strokes can result in hopping of the rear wheel. How does one prevent this? I am assuming by shifting weight towards the rear. However when I "jump" it seems like my weight comes forward

THanks in advance


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## cha_cha_ (Sep 27, 2008)

1) typically out of the saddle, though you may find guys with track backgrounds that can deliver lots of power seated at high cadence

2) depends. i know i usually sprint in 52x12 on the flats but i'm pretty big and i don't have spectacular leg speed so i don't really to get caught out. being able to deliver a lot of watts at very high cadence is pretty important, so i would suggest too low is better than too high.

3) co-ordination and practice


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

1. out unless it's a really long sprint.
2. depends what speed I start the sprint at. if breaking into a sprint at, say, 20 mph, I'll need to shift my way up to top speed. If I'm already doing, say, 30 MPH, I can probably start in a gear that will still be good when I hit top speed. I've never actually thought about this until now. It's all about feel.
3. I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying your rear wheel comes off the ground? Hmmm....you got me there. I've never experienced that.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Practice, practice, practice. Do what I did years ago for criterium racing. Find a quiet stretch of road, about 7-8 miles from home and mark off a 200 yard stretch (like 3-4 telephone poles) - something that takes you about 10 - 15 seconds. I permanently marked mine with two blobs of paint poured from a can.

Then go do a ride per week where you do nothing but reps over this stretch. You'll soon find out what works for you and what doesn't. If you need to find what's fastest, get someone with a stopwatch to time you.

The wheel-skip thing is weight placement. Move your mass back to keep the wheel down.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Practice, practice, practice. Do what I did years ago for criterium racing. Find a quiet stretch of road, about 7-8 miles from home and mark off a 200 yard stretch (like 3-4 telephone poles) - something that takes you about 10 - 15 seconds. I permanently marked mine with two blobs of paint poured from a can.
> 
> Then go do a ride per week where you do nothing but reps over this stretch. You'll soon find out what works for you and what doesn't. If you need to find what's fastest, get someone with a stopwatch to time you.
> 
> The wheel-skip thing is weight placement. Move your mass back to keep the wheel down.


agreed. you are leaning too far over the bars. get your upper body back some.


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## WEG (Nov 6, 2005)

Thanks for the replies!

Yes when I come out of the saddle the rear wheel will often come off the ground 

I guess I need to figure out how to stand up without moving my weight forward

Thanks


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

WEG said:


> Yes when I come out of the saddle the rear wheel will often come off the ground.... I guess I need to figure out how to stand up without moving my weight forward


Just do the opposite of this  -


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Rear wheel skip can be managed by, as other have pointed out, practice practice practice. Esp practice the jump at the start of the sprint, I do this by doing alot of "form" sprints in a small gear (39x17 or so) both seated and standing focusing on those first few pedal strokes. I also practice transistioning between standing and sitting mid sprint I find Im faster in longer sprints this way at times (helps a lot on the track too).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

You need to be in a harder gear for bursts of speed. If your burst comes from spinning really fast in an easy gear, you aren't going to be too intimidating or impressive as a sprinter, just saying.

The goal is to have brutal acceleration, that comes from leg strength. If that's not your style, then you need to ramp up the speed from further out, instead of contesting sprints with the sprinters. You wont beat them if you play their game, so you will need to figure out how to force them to play yours.


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## Poncharelli (May 7, 2006)

Practice, practice, practice.......as others said. 

I reserve a sprint day once a week, all year round, usually Fridays. 8 or 4 10-15 second sprints depending if I'm racing the next day. 

Power meters are great for sprinting since you can experiment with which technique develops the most power. The jump is super important in a sprint.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm sure there's a local group ride with known sprint points. There's no better practice than simulating the real thing. 

In or out of the saddle? That's up to you. Practice both. 

If I am following a leadout train I stay in the saddle for as long as possible. Now that I think about it, that's my general rule: In the saddle for as long as I can, or until the other guy(s) get up and going.


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## seppo17 (Dec 7, 2008)

practice

But one thing no one has mentioned is timing. I'm more of an allrounder type and I pretty much have to be the first to go or else I'm luckly to just be able to hold my own.


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## MontyCrisco (Sep 21, 2008)

Even when sprinting out of the saddle, the rules of aerodynamics apply. There's a temptation to be too vertical, which is going to slow you down a bit. Try having your hands in drops if possible, head low but looking straight ahead. Something like what these guys are doing. 

Like what everyone else is saying, practice makes perfect. Form sprints are good: focus on positioning, holding a straight line.


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## Mr. Jones (Jul 4, 2006)

foto said:


> You need to be in a harder gear for bursts of speed. If your burst comes from spinning really fast in an easy gear, you aren't going to be too intimidating or impressive as a sprinter, just saying.


I don't think the OP was considering sprinting in a small gear relative to normal riding. I think the advice given above about choosing whether to shift or not based on the run-in to the sprint is spot on. While using a smaller gear isn't terribly intimidating, neither is watching someone stand up and go nowhere as they labor to get on top of a gear.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Intimidation is irrelevant.


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## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

I find that I can spin a 53/13 faster in the saddle than I can grind a 52/12 out of it. When the red mist descends, I'm usually in the 15 cog, gear up to 14 as I start the sprint then click into the 13 depending on whether the course is flat/ no wind. If it's uphill or a headwind I'll stay in the 14, downhill or tailwind I'll click down to the 12.

My tactic du jour is to go a little early. Most amateurs lack the power to accelerate a harder gear fast enough to catch me; someone might be able to go faster in a 53/12 or 11 but by the time they've achieved their max speed, I'm too far ahead to be caught. I've definitely found that a lighter gear is more helpful than harder; in fact I'd pick too light over too hard any day of the week.

If you're more a climber, then you will always struggle against a sprinter. The best thing to do is time your attack, there will be a point where the sprinters start eyeballing each other and slow down. Jump then and you may find that your attack causes that second or so of confusion that's all you need to keep your wheel ahead.

The other thing (as others have specified) is to practice, practice, practice. I spend more of my training on climbing... as a result I'm not so bad at it these days.


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Don't push big gears. Sprinting is not about big strength its about legs speed at least up to your 8-10s max. Work on spinning those legs as fast as you can and developing you neromuscular Power system. If the sprint starts 50s out you will be working the anaerobic capacity system and leg speed is not the issue and more leg power is needed. With either type of sprinting your cadence should be well over 100 rpms.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Yes. Most cyclists' peak power is achieved around 130rpm. 

That's why I laugh at cat 3 guys who claim that they need 53X11 for sprinting. 
53X11 @ 100rpm = 37+ mph
53X11 @ 130rpm = 45+ mph

Most riders with standard cranks would be better off with 13-25 cassettes on flat courses.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Maybe yes, may be no. For me it is slightly below100rpm. 


Local Hero said:


> Yes. Most cyclists' peak power is achieved around 130rpm.
> 
> That's why I laugh at cat 3 guys who claim that they need 53X11 for sprinting.
> 53X11 @ 100rpm = 37+ mph
> ...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> That's why I laugh at cat 3 guys who claim that they need 53X11 for sprinting.


Cav needs 53/11 for sprinting. Cat 3 people need it just for bragging rights.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Yes. Most cyclists' peak power is achieved around 130rpm.
> 
> That's why I laugh at cat 3 guys who claim that they need 53X11 for sprinting.
> 53X11 @ 100rpm = 37+ mph
> ...


You must win a lot.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> Yes. Most cyclists' peak power is achieved around 130rpm.
> 
> That's why I laugh at cat 3 guys who claim that they need 53X11 for sprinting.
> 53X11 @ 100rpm = 37+ mph
> ...


not even close to 130 for me...actually, below 100. i'd be amazed if anyone's actual peak wattage occured at anywhere near 130rpm. show us some numbers.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> Cav needs 53/11 for sprinting. Cat 3 people need it just for bragging rights.


um...I read somewhere pro sprinters actually push a 54 or 55. But whatever, if you are a cat 3 there is no way you would ever need a 53/11.


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

cxwrench said:


> not even close to 130 for me...actually, below 100. i'd be amazed if anyone's actual peak wattage occured at anywhere near 130rpm. show us some numbers.


You are not going to find many good sprinters winning sprints with less than 120rpm. If you spend time researching you will find 130rpms is a number with some solid backing. This is my experience also, in CX I get holeshorts at will and on the road, if I am in good postition at the end, I am not beaten very often. My Powermeter shows my peak power to be in the range of 130rpm. Go to youtube and watch Cav and/or track sprinters their explosiveness is not strength but leg speed. Same thing in other sports like running its about turnover speed for the first 60 meter. I can't address where your power lies but at the highest levels its all about leg speed.


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

Here is a graph from on paper showing 120 rpms is where peak power numbers happen.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

rockdude said:


> Here is a graph from on paper showing 120 rpms is where peak power numbers happen.


link to the paper?


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## rockdude (Apr 3, 2008)

There are a ton of papers, research and write ups, use your google button and read as much as you can on the subject, I am not going to spoon feed it to you. One paper doesn't make it empirical but if you read all the information as a whole you will see the trends and learn a lot about sprinting to boot.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

rockdude said:


> There are a ton of papers, research and write ups, use your google button and read as much as you can on the subject, I am not going to spoon feed it to you. One paper doesn't make it empirical but if you read all the information as a whole you will see the trends and learn a lot about sprinting to boot.


What, you don't mind first clipping the graph, uploading it to photobucket, and then posting it here, but you are too lazy to just link the article?

I bet the authors would appreciate if you would do it, too. I would be very surprised to find that peak power does not depend on rider physiology.


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## al0 (Jan 24, 2003)

You made the statement, it is up to you to prove it. Do not try to shift your burden (of proof) on someone else shoulders.

BTW, I may agree that most (if not all) good sprinters have a peak power at high RPMs (120, 130, 140) - but it does not mean that it holds true for all (or most) riders, which are not born sprinters.


rockdude said:


> There are a ton of papers, research and write ups, use your google button and read as much as you can on the subject, I am not gift yoing to spoon feed it to you. One paper doesn't make it empirical but if you read all the information as a whole you will see the trends and learn a lot about sprinting to boot.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> not even close to 130 for me...actually, below 100. i'd be amazed if anyone's actual peak wattage occured at anywhere near 130rpm. show us some numbers.


_Force peaks become more important in acceleration and in spurts: at 900 Watts of power with 100 RPM, the force required for every pedal stroke surpass 100 kg. But at this power level the ideal rate is around 125 RPM, thus reducing the required force to about 80 kg. 

The best cyclists in sprints reach power levels close to 1500 Watts, which at 100 RPM require force peaks of nearly 180 kg! 

Obviously sprinters choose higher pedal rates, even if they are probably under the ideal (at least 130 RPM). 

The 53x11 is probably too long even for most of the classic sprints over long flat straight-aways: at 73 km/h this ratio requires 120 RPM. The 53x12 would probably be a better choice, since it allows development of the same speed at 130 RPM. 

If the speed of the sprint is hindered by the wind, curves or light inclines, the choice should indicate shorter rations: at 60 km/h, instead of a 53x13, which requires 116 RPM, it would be preferable to use a 53x14 that only requires 125 RPM, or even a 53x15 with 134 RPM. _
Welcome to 53x12.com


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> _Force peaks become more important in acceleration and in spurts: at 900 Watts of power with 100 RPM, the force required for every pedal stroke surpass 100 kg. But at this power level the ideal rate is around 125 RPM, thus reducing the required force to about 80 kg.
> 
> The best cyclists in sprints reach power levels close to 1500 Watts, which at 100 RPM require force peaks of nearly 180 kg!
> 
> ...


Only a total hack would measure force in kgs. Thanks for the link, though.

edit: LOL, just saw the author, that's too funny. This guy has a stellar reputation!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

*while shifting the goalposts...*



al0 said:


> BTW, I may agree that most (if not all) good sprinters have a peak power at high RPMs (120, 130, 140) - but it does not mean that it holds true for all (or most) riders, which are not born sprinters.


would you also like to include cat 7 gran fondo masters?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> Only a total hack would measure force in kgs. Thanks for the link, though.


Please take a closer look at the paper. Did you miss the point or would you prefer it be measured in newtons? 

The point: The force is kg is meant to show how difficult it is to push the pedals at a certain cadence to achieve a desired output in power. To get to 1500 watts X-kg is requires to push the pedals at Y-rpm.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> edit: LOL, just saw the author, that's too funny. This guy has a stellar reputation!


Instead of attacking the author, do you have anything to say about the numbers behind what he has said? 

I thought this was common knowledge. Nobody in the know has disagreed with this in about a decade.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Please take a closer look at the paper. Did you miss the point or would you prefer it be measured in newton meters?
> 
> The point: The force is kg is meant to show how difficult it is to push the pedals at a certain cadence to achieve a desired output in power. To get to 1500 watts X-kg is requires to push the pedals at Y-rpm.


HaHa! Yes please describe force in newton-meters. That would be much more consistent than kgs.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

.......


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Instead of attacking the author, *do you have anything to say about the numbers behind what he has said? *
> 
> I thought this was common knowledge. Nobody in the know has disagreed with this in about a decade.


Sure, a person's ability to produce 100 "kgs" or 85 "kgs" or whatever may very well depend on that person's physiology. So, even if there is less mass (?) required to produce a certain power output at a given rpm, a rider may not actually be able to produce it. Their physiology favors a faster or slower rpm, much like output curves for motors.

Get it?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> Sure, a person's ability to produce 100 "kgs" or 85 "kgs" or whatever may very well depend on that person's physiology. So, even if there is less mass (?) required to produce a certain power output at a given rpm, a rider may not actually be able to produce it. Their physiology favors a faster or slower rpm, much like output curves for motors.
> 
> Get it?


I agree that different people have different physiological capabilities. When we say 90rpm is a good cadence for riding around, we do not include 67 year old gran fondo riders who cannot spin faster than 85 rpms. Their peak wattage might be at 80 rpms. So we agree that different people achieve their peaks at different rpms. Physiology makes a difference -- we agree. Maybe we can also agree that people who peak their power at 80 rpms are not sprinters.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> I agree that different people have different physiological capabilities. When we say 90rpm is a good cadence for riding around, we do not include 67 year old gran fondo riders who cannot spin faster than 85 rpms. Their peak wattage might be at 80 rpms. So we agree that different people achieve their peaks at different rpms. Physiology makes a difference -- we agree. Maybe we can also agree that people who peak their power at 80 rpms are not sprinters.


Ok, so tell me: How old is the OP and at what cadence does he produce peak power?

135 rpm?

Is the OP actually a he?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> Ok, so tell me: How old is the OP and at what cadence does he produce peak power?
> 
> 135 rpm?
> 
> Is the OP actually a he?


Fair questions. It is unclear why you're asking me, unless it's the fulfillment of some sort of message board vendetta or to provoke an argument. 

Two things are clear: First, there are articles and studies to support the argument that peak power is achieved at higher rpms. Even if a certain rider's peak power is achieved at 100 rpms today, it does not mean that a higher peak power cannot be achieved at 120 rpms in the future, with the proper training. After all, when we look at pro sprinters (pro riders in general), we tend to see higher cadences. 

Next, the person who started this thread can improve at sprinting by training specifically to sprint. Trackies do many different types of drills to improve their sprints. There's strength work pushing harder gears. There's leg speed work with easier gears. Weights. Work with power meters. And so on. Most important is what has been mentioned many times in this thread, practice. Practice, practice, practice.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> Fair questions. It is unclear why you're asking me, unless it's the fulfillment of some sort of message board vendetta or to provoke an argument.
> 
> Two things are clear: First, there are articles and studies to support the argument that peak power is achieved at higher rpms. Even if a certain rider's peak power is achieved at 100 rpms today, it does not mean that a higher peak power cannot be achieved at 120 rpms in the future, with the proper training. *After all, when we look at pro sprinters (pro riders in general), we tend to see higher cadences.*
> 
> Next, the person who started this thread can improve at sprinting by training specifically to sprint. Trackies do many different types of drills to improve their sprints. There's strength work pushing harder gears. There's leg speed work with easier gears. Weights. Work with power meters. And so on. Most important is what has been mentioned many times in this thread, practice. Practice, practice, practice.


I agree, we should all aspire to force our riding style to fit that of our favorite pro. Which pro do you train to emulate?


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## WEG (Nov 6, 2005)

*Info about OP*

HI everyone 

Thanks for all of the responses to my questions

Just to clarify I am male, age 46, I like to spin, and I am more of a climber/endurance type than a sprinter

I tried to get to the gym 2x week over the winter to work on my leg strength, but at 6'1" 150 lbs I am not known for my peak power

During the week I am typically on my commuter, but I will try some form sprints Thu

Thanks

Will


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## WEG (Nov 6, 2005)

HI everyone

I tried some form sprints this week

I had a friend lead me out so we were going maybe 22 MPH

I tried to sprint out of saddle but in the drops

The cadence that I was most comfortable with was maybe 80-85 at start and then 105 RPM after the jump

I don't think I can spin much faster than 105 standing and sprinting

Normally I do like to spin, and downhill I can spin into the 120-130 range sitting

Spinning at 110-115 in a paceline is not uncommon

So after the initial jump out of the saddle - does everyone try to finish out of the saddle or transition to sitting?

Thanks


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

WEG said:


> HI everyone
> 
> I tried some form sprints this week
> 
> ...


Try it out and tell us.


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## wtfbbq (Apr 5, 2012)

WEG said:


> I don't think I can spin much faster than 105 standing and sprinting


Yes you can.

It takes practice.

And you might have to adjust your position (butt farther back).


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