# How will 2008 be different?



## Slartibartfast (Jul 22, 2007)

Will the peleton race clean? Or will it be a transition year where half the peleton looks French and the other half Superman? Or will it be the same as it's been the past few years?

I say 2007 was a pivotal year; of course 1998 was supposed to be pivotal too.

Will the Tour of Cali throwdown amount to anything: 

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jan08/jan24news

Just askin'.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

I will race clean. Someone will have to pay me a boatload of money to do so.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Unfortunately there is no silver bullet to solve the doping problem in cycling.
It will probably take many more years before a system is put in place, refined and accepted by all in order to catch the dopers. Even if that perfect system will one day see the light of day, it may be that doping will move away from the chemical blood manipulation methods of today and into a more hi tech arena like transplants, genetic engineering etc.


The Festina affair in 1998 was different because testing for many illegal substances was simply not available at the time.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

It's great that the Tour of California is spending so much money on testing, but they are in a financial position where they can do that. I'm not sure most race promoters have the same kind of funding. Personally, I think it is somewhat of a waste of money, because who is doping in February? The early season has probably the cleanest races you'll see all year!


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

The lesson to be learned from BALCO is that new drugs can be invented much faster than new tests to detect them. With HGH just now coming in vougue I don't think the good guys can keep up with the cheaters.

IMHO.

JSR


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

JSR said:


> The lesson to be learned from BALCO is that new drugs can be invented much faster than new tests to detect them. With HGH just now coming in vougue I don't think the good guys can keep up with the cheaters.
> 
> IMHO.
> 
> JSR


But steroids and HgH might not even confer any advantage to an endurance athlete which means even if they do it's not likely to be much. OTOH, the big issue is that autologous blood doping is still undetectable.

There is more to be gained now than ever if you're connected and willing to risk it.

I have little trust that the Biological Passport is going to have enough teeth to actually deter anyone. 

There are two positives that I see. They are increasingly closing the OOC windows to dope and simple attrition of the old school guys.


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## RowRonin (Jan 1, 2006)

They still don't have a test defined for DynEPO, although LNDD claims they found it in ~10 test samples last year. 

The peloton will do what they can get away with. 

I personally like the reality show approach listed here.


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## steephill (Jul 14, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> It's great that the Tour of California is spending so much money on testing, ... Personally, I think it is somewhat of a waste of money, because who is doping in February?


Fringe riders looking for a moment of glory.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

JSR said:


> The lesson to be learned from BALCO is that new drugs can be invented much faster than new tests to detect them. With HGH just now coming in vougue I don't think the good guys can keep up with the cheaters.
> JSR


So your point is, if you can't beat 'em give up? It's always going to be a fight. People that demand 100% clean cycling or sport are dreaming. But the fight to stem the flow is what keeps it (somewhat) in check.

In the past you could use cheap old amphetamines for a boost, now you can't. You could use blood doping, now you can't. You could use EPO, now you can't. (Can but not without much greater risk) 

So it's getting harder to cheat. When teams, doctors, federations and governments realize that cheating isn't worth it then we'll see some real headway. Until then we have to fight the good fight.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

As far as doping scandals go probably another year of blood-letting.

I'm reading now that Boonen's parents home in Belgium has been searched possibly as a follow-up to the search of cyclocrosser Tom Vannoppen's home yesterday.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> As far as doping scandals go probably another year of blood-letting.
> 
> I'm reading now that Boonen's parents home in Belgium has been searched possibly as a follow-up to the search of cyclocrosser Tom Vannoppen's home yesterday.


apparently they didn't find much. this can't end well for Vannoppen...

from the guardian:
BRUSSELS, Jan 25 (Reuters) - Leading Tour de France rider Tom Boonen has been cleared "for now" by Belgian police investigating an accusation that he supplied cocaine to a cyclo-cross competitor, a spokeswoman for the public prosecutor said on Friday.
She said police had searched the home of Boonen's parents in a case involving Belgian cyclo-cross rider Tom Vannoppen, who tested positive for cocaine.
"Vannoppen told police he got the cocaine from Tom Boonen so police questioned him and searched his room but they have found no wrongdoing for now," the spokeswoman said.
"The investigation goes on and Tom is currently out of the country so I cannot say we might not want to speak to him again. But he is clear for now."


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## cocoboots (Apr 13, 2006)

steephill said:


> Fringe riders looking for a moment of glory.



+1

once great showing could make a huge difference in contracting for next year. AD's can be pushed from spring through fall. Just look at the spring classics and how much press the winners get throughout the season.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

hayaku said:


> So your point is, if you can't beat 'em give up?


No, I didn't really mean THAT! I guess it was sort of a plaintive bleat...

I try to stay positive. I love road racing and would like to know it's a level playing field. I just wonder how effective all these controls will really be. 

I'll try to improve my outlook!

JSR


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

The great thing about a team's systematic "anti-doping" program where they test their own athletes blood and hematocrit levels is that it's easier to be consistent with doping and get through offical race tests...then you can sideline your rider if they have unusual levels and just shrug it off as them having a "stomach problems."

Doping will never leave any sports. Just wait until genetic/DNA cheating comes around, and that won't be detectable.


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

Slartibartfast said:


> Will the peleton race clean? Or will it be a transition year where half the peleton looks French and the other half Superman? Or will it be the same as it's been the past few years?
> 
> I say 2007 was a pivotal year; of course 1998 was supposed to be pivotal too.
> 
> ...



Clean? Different?


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

The difference this year is that different riders would get caught this year when compared to last year. That is all. Sad, but pretty likely.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

My fear (and expectation) is that that the Tour will have one or more major scandal (again).

/couldn't even be bothered to buy the DVD of last year.


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## TWD (Feb 9, 2004)

iliveonnitro said:


> The great thing about a team's systematic "anti-doping" program where they test their own athletes blood and hematocrit levels is that it's easier to be consistent with doping and get through offical race tests...then you can sideline your rider if they have unusual levels and just shrug it off as them having a "stomach problems."
> 
> Doping will never leave any sports. Just wait until genetic/DNA cheating comes around, and that won't be detectable.


That is an interesting thought about the team pulling the rider before a real sanction, though you'd think it would still raise a red flag with the UCI and WADA. 

At any rate, not sure how they could spin the antidoping data to hide the doping. I 'spose, you could maintain a rider's hemaetocrit at a consistenly higher level than natural to establish a higher baseline, but I wonder if that could be done while keeping below the detection limits for whatever they're doping with.

It does seem like the team's own anti-dopnig programs in conjuction with more out of competition tests would make it harder for a rider to dope on their own without getting caught.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

There will never be a technological 'victory' on doping - people who want to cheat will always find a way. If 2008 is any different, it will be because cycling has finally realised that doping is killing the sport. A year ago, it was becoming important to _look_ clean (the T-Mobile solution) - trouble is, when that backfires (e.g. Sinkewitz), the scandal is even bigger than if you never made a fuss about being clean in the first place. Big money sponsors are only going to stick around if teams make the jump from looking clean, to being clean. Top-down sponsor pressure may yet lead to a cleaner cycling environment (with individual's desire to push the boundaries/cheat meaning it will never be completely achieved...)

There's a new story emerging that the Italian authorities want to end Basso's ban early so he can race in his hometown World Championships: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Italians_Argue_Over_Amnesty_for_Ivan_Basso_article_176566.html

The quote from Simeoni at the end shows that even some old pros are starting to think about the wider implications of doping: "Everyone in cycling is paying the bitter consequences because the doping scandals have had a terrible effect on the whole sport. A lot of people have lost their love for our sport and above all some sponsors have left the sport. It's caused some serious damage".


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## otiebob (Jun 25, 2002)

Jokull said:


> The quote from Simeoni at the end shows that even some old pros are starting to think about the wider implications of doping: "Everyone in cycling is paying the bitter consequences because the doping scandals have had a terrible effect on the whole sport. A lot of people have lost their love for our sport and above all some sponsors have left the sport. It's caused some serious damage".


Gilberto Simoni - not Filippo Simeoni. 2 different riders completely. Regardless, Simoni is not so pure himself (cocaine-laced cough drops from a few years ago) and has a major hate-on for Basso since Basso (most likely whilst doping) destroyed him in the Giro 2 years ago. Its all well and good for Gibo to be saying all this now but when he was outclimbing Pantani a few years back, I suspect he was not completely sports enhancement free either.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

I'm aware it was Gilberto (and I'm not sure why you'd think that I'd mistaken him for Filippo). I'm also aware that he hasn't had the most spotless past (there was an interview with him and Ricardo Ricco in ProCycling a year or so ago where I found their attitudes quite depressing). BUT, that just proves my point - even old pro's who have been in the 'system' for years are starting to realise that the economic value of their career is suffering because of all the doping scandals.


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## otiebob (Jun 25, 2002)

Jokull said:


> I'm aware it was Gilberto (and I'm not sure why you'd think that I'd mistaken him for Filippo). I'm also aware that he hasn't had the most spotless past (there was an interview with him and Ricardo Ricco in ProCycling a year or so ago where I found their attitudes quite depressing). BUT, that just proves my point - even old pro's who have been in the 'system' for years are starting to realise that the economic value of their career is suffering because of all the doping scandals.


Check your spelling- you wrote Simeoni. 

Also, could it possibly be that Simoni has a personal beef with Basso rather than merely that he is realizing the error of previous doping ways in the peloton? I'm not saying you're not making a valid point, just that using the example of Simoni v. Basso has other issues involved that don't necessarily prove your thesis.


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

otiebob said:


> Check your spelling- you wrote Simeoni.


My bad...


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## Jokull (Aug 13, 2007)

otiebob said:


> Also, could it possibly be that Simoni has a personal beef with Basso rather than merely that he is realizing the error of previous doping ways in the peloton? I'm not saying you're not making a valid point, just that using the example of Simoni v. Basso has other issues involved that don't necessarily prove your thesis.


Well, they're Italian, which means they obvioulsy love feuding, so I can't say that you're wrong. Maybe I'm projecting, and hoping that old pro's really are seeing that they're dragging the sport down, because like I said earlier, its this cultural change which will lead to a clean(er) peloton, rather than any technological fix, so the only way for a fan to be encouraged is to look for _any _sign of attitudes changing.

In that same clutching-at-straws sense, maybe Gilberto's switch from Saunier Duval, with its laissez-faire attitude to doping, to Diquigiovanni, where Gianni Savio at least _talks _about wanting his riders to be clean is of (some very minor) significance? (Aside from the obvious contractual/financial reasons for the transfer).


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## otiebob (Jun 25, 2002)

Jokull said:


> My bad...


No worries. 

I actually hope you're right and the peloton will be more self-policed this year with more drama occurring on the bike rather than at the doping check afterwards. 

Whatever his motive, be it personal animosity or a true desire to prevent the sport from sinking further, I agree with Gibo on this one and hope that Basso serves his full sentence just out of principle.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I've concluded that Simoni didn't want to go the transfusion route after EPO became problematic and is bent that others are willing to do so. I think the division in the peloton at this point is between blood boosters and those that want to confine things to the traditional growth/sex hormones, asthma drugs, cortisol, and the rest of the bogus TUE cocktails.

They will never be able to detect or stop doping to any great degree. There are simply too many potential targets for intervention and too many possible manipulations to current drugs to prevent detection.

There are actually no technical impediments to detecting Dynepo and Aranesp since they are different compounds from endogenous EPO. The difficulty is mostly the expense of having to test for an ever increasing number of compounds and the time it takes to get the assay formally approved by whatever governing bodies want to stick their nose in. Then the minute it's approved the bio engineers can add another sugar molecule or whatever and it's back to business as usual.

There have been rumors of rudimentary gene doping for several years so who knows what's going on among the real risk takers out there. I'm surprised there hasn't been anything become public about oxygen uptake/release modifiers (other than a rumor about some drug LA was supposed to have gotten from Bristol), since they've been around a few years and are apparently quite effective, and wouldn't cause any changes in CBC values to get you on the enhanced surveillance list.


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## crumjack (Sep 11, 2005)

Apparently no difference at all,

http://beta.velonews.com/article/71762


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

There will be fewer big sponsors.


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