# Campy 04 hidden headset for C50?



## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

I have a C50 on order and am thinking of either transfering 03 Record from my MXL or getting a 04 Record set for it.

Anyhow what do you think about 04 Record hidden headset on C50? Does this headset come with compression type of nut or star nut? I don't want the regular Campy headset or King HS on my C50. 

If it's star nut then will it be okay to install it in a carbon steerer? All my carbon fork steerers have compression type of nuts. Anyone have pix of 04 hiddenset installed on any carbon head tube or even better on a C40 or C50?


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## C50 (Feb 8, 2004)

*Not !!!*

Hiddensets are only for those frames designed for that type of headset, not on the C50.

Star inserts should NOT be used on carbon steerer tubes. Use the fitting that comes with the Colnago fork.

You should consider consulting a professional bike shop to get this bike built the right way.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Oh, okay. BTW I am not installing...*



C50 said:


> Hiddensets are only for those frames designed for that type of headset, not on the C50.
> 
> Star inserts should NOT be used on carbon steerer tubes. Use the fitting that comes with the Colnago fork.
> 
> You should consider consulting a professional bike shop to get this bike built the right way.


the headset. Maestro will be. I am sure he won't install something that shouldn't be installed. After I emailed him to do so I started to wonder and figured I better look into it. He'll prep and install bb and headset, the rest I'll be doing. My two Look(intergrated FSA headsets) and a trainer bike(CaneCreek S2 headset) turned out fine.

Too bad I like the low profile and carbon ring Campy hiddenset. So what are my headset options for C50? Isn't there a Colnago branded one?


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## C50 (Feb 8, 2004)

*Headset*

The Colnago headset is OK, but the best out there now is still the Chris King, which is what I went for.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Personally...*



C50 said:


> The Colnago headset is OK, but the best out there now is still the Chris King, which is what I went for.


I really don't like CK HS on Colnagos. I have CK on my Merckx cross bike and it makes sense there and looks okay (black frame w/ black CK HS,) I think, because it makes sense for a CX bike. But on a road bike I buy the thought that CK class HS is not necessary and over kill and they just don't look right to me on a Colnagos or many Euro road bikes. I say again, this is my own personal peculier preference and I want my C50 to feel just right for me. 

I think I have plenty of time to look around for the components knowing how backed up Colnago is with these C50s. At least mine is the new paint scheme one, PR4, so the wait shouldn't be as long as the custom retro paint jobs etc.But then it's a sloping geometry so we'll see. Then again it could be any day since Mike(Maestro) saids it's been on order since Oct/03. 

BTW what type of bike/ headtube is that Campy hidden headset for?


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*I've been to the shop*



6was9 said:


> the headset. Maestro will be. I am sure he won't install something that shouldn't be installed. After I emailed him to do so I started to wonder and figured I better look into it. He'll prep and install bb and headset, the rest I'll be doing. My two Look(intergrated FSA headsets) and a trainer bike(CaneCreek S2 headset) turned out fine.
> 
> Too bad I like the low profile and carbon ring Campy hiddenset. So what are my headset options for C50? Isn't there a Colnago branded one?


I live in London and went down to take delivery of my C-40 last year. As C-50 stated, the C-50 frame is not designed for hidden headsets so it's not going to happen. As for the Colnago one, I don't like the look and it's a needle bearing design if that's important to you.

Mike Perry, he is Maestro Cycles, can build a bike up in his sleep. The bike stand you see on the newly updated website, it looks like an ironing board. Regardless, he knows his way around it as I spent 3 hours at the shop just talking while he built it up and learned more about Colnago and DeRosa than my 30+ years of prior bike experience..

I have two bikes with Chris King headsets and two with FSA (both sealed bearing). My C-40's built with a Campag Record and I've used a Chorus without issue in UK (read wet) conditions for three years. They work just fine, stay in adjustment and have parts that can be replaced.

Chris King headsets are nice but cost a small fortune in the UK, as in £100+ which is $190 or so. They're the best but at that price, the Record is as good. Mike is a very straight guy and I asked him about getting a Chris King. He pointed out that the Record just worked just fine. If you really want a sealed bearing headset, the one to get in the UK is the Hope. Only made in 1.125" and it's as they say over here, the dogs bollocks. Again, overkill for the road but still, a nicely made piece.

One thing to remember if you get the Record and are going to change at some point to a CK, the top stack height on the Record is lower by 5mm. Keep that in mind when cutting the steerer.

The steerer plug is actually a metal expanding mandrel which uses a conical wedge inside a splined surround, tightened up with an allen wrench. Your top cap bolt then goes into the mandrel. Similar to the picture but longer.

You're in good hands with Mike and personally, I'd go with the Record.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Thanks for the thorough answer and...*



boneman said:


> Mike Perry, he is Maestro Cycles, can build a bike up in his sleep. The bike stand you see on the newly updated website, it looks like an ironing board. Regardless, he knows his way around it as I spent 3 hours at the shop just talking while he built it up and learned more about Colnago and DeRosa than my 30+ years of prior bike experience..
> QUOTE]
> 
> the bit about your experience with Mike. I've heard nothing but good things about him and it's even more assuring to hear someone's first hand experience. I have no concerns even though this is my first time dealing with him. The only thing is that when he called me the other day I couldn't quite understand everything he was saying because of, I think, his accent, or it could have been my cell phone  I understood 80% no preblem. The other 20% I got the gist of what he was saying  I used to have the same problem watching Monty Python  although I am much better now.
> ...


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

the bit about your experience with Mike. I've heard nothing but good things about him and it's even more assuring to hear someone's first hand experience. I have no concerns even though this is my first time dealing with him. The only thing is that when he called me the other day I couldn't quite understand everything he was saying because of, I think, his accent, or it could have been my cell phone  I understood 80% no preblem. The other 20% I got the gist of what he was saying  I used to have the same problem watching Monty Python  although I am much better now. 

Anyhow I suppose this is just about my shallow 'look/appearance' preference; I don't like silver/aluminum headset collars (does Campy come in black?) nor do I like CK. I want minimal amount of HS collar showing and whatever little that's showing I want carbon or subdued black. Am I being overly picky and bad as my lbs guy told me? I actually wouldn't mind a regular Campy headset on my MXL although it has a Canecreek aheadset that has very low profile thin black rubber collar. But I just don't think silver/al collar will look right on mostly black carbon C50. I'll ask Mike whether he has anything like what I want otherwise I'll just have him make sure that headtube is ready and install one myself. I do have a HS cup press I've never used so far. I also know a good lbs who don't mind working on frames bought elsewhere and does beautiful job (not my lbs, he's a Colnago dealer and I don't think he'll like that.)

Never heard of the Hope before. I'll have to look into it even just for curiosity. Do you have any URL handy?[/QUOTE]

You should go to Liverpool if you want to hear English accents. I've been here a while but my 'scouse is useless. Despite that I was able to order a custom steel bike.

No, the Campag stuff doesn't come in black. I'd be interested to see what Mike comes back with although again, I'd go with the Record. It works and the silver will look just fine.

Actually breaks up the monotone monotony.

http://www.hopetech.com/


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Actually don't look bad...*



boneman said:


> No, the Campag stuff doesn't come in black. I'd be interested to see what Mike comes back with although again, I'd go with the Record. It works and the silver will look just fine.
> 
> Actually breaks up the monotone monotony.
> 
> ...


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## SPINDAWG (Aug 24, 2003)

*I went with the Chris King on my C-50*

I had to mail it to Mike though. I thought he was joking when he told me how expensive these were overseas. I've had King headsets on all my bikes and was kinda reluctant to go with anything else. I was thinking a man with your connections couldn't get deals on King headsets....come on! 
I know what you mean about the wait. I ordered a C-50 with a classic AD10 paintscheme (98/99 Mapei) back in Nov. and it'll probably be ready in June. I can't wait to get it, this bike is going to be sick! I've talked to Mike a couple of times on the phone and I know what you mean about the accent but he probably got a kick out of mine for I live in the south. He has really bent over backwards for me though in helping me reach my decisions pertaining to the build of my bike, he really does live and breath bikes.
Boneman, I enjoyed the pictures of the build of your bike. I'm glad you used the Colnago fork it looks sweet!


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*C'dale is the only...*

bike I've seen that takes the Hiddenset.

TF


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

To name a few, Giant, Pinarello, and DeRosa take the Hiddenset. Depending on the race angle some frames with FSA integrated are also compatible with the Hiddenset.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*The headset*

It's a 2003 Record. Probably looks darker due to the reflection. Paint scheme is AD-10 which Mapei used to ride before getting their own scheme. Head tube is basically black although the complete bike can be seen in another post in this section.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*King HS in the UK*



SPINDAWG said:


> I had to mail it to Mike though. I thought he was joking when he told me how expensive these were overseas. I've had King headsets on all my bikes and was kinda reluctant to go with anything else. I was thinking a man with your connections couldn't get deals on King headsets....come on!
> I know what you mean about the wait. I ordered a C-50 with a classic AD10 paintscheme (98/99 Mapei) back in Nov. and it'll probably be ready in June. I can't wait to get it, this bike is going to be sick! I've talked to Mike a couple of times on the phone and I know what you mean about the accent but he probably got a kick out of mine for I live in the south. He has really bent over backwards for me though in helping me reach my decisions pertaining to the build of my bike, he really does live and breath bikes.
> Boneman, I enjoyed the pictures of the build of your bike. I'm glad you used the Colnago fork it looks sweet!


Bike parts, frames, etc. made in the US cost more due to the following:

Declared value = price paid + shipping (US to UK)
Import duty= Declared value x rate= 15%
VAT= (Declared value + Import Duty) * 17.5%
Your cost= Declared Value + Import Duty + VAT + distributor/LBS markup

Campag cost into the UK

Declared value + difference in VAT rates (UK vs Italy) 2.5%
Your cost= Declared Value + VAT differential + distributor/LBS markup

Hence, CK is extremely unattractive on a pricing basis in the UK, Europe and most of the World.

I'm going over to the States in June, something I do every other year, and will be buying a couple of CK's for my stash and a Park steerer cutting guide and crown race remover.

Thanks for the comment on the bike and fork. Its been over 5 years since riding a steel fork and one forgets that their performance, notwithstanding weight, exceeds anything I've ridden in CF to date.

By now, you must be absolutely dying for the C-50. Hang in there, it'll be sweet when it comes!


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*Well kept secret...*



divve said:


> To name a few, Giant, Pinarello, and DeRosa take the Hiddenset. Depending on the race angle some frames with FSA integrated are also compatible with the Hiddenset.


since none of those sites mention the Hiddenset. I though all three angle were different (1 Campy and 2 for FSA std) and I am very sure that the bearings for the Campy and FSA std are a different size. Everything I have seen says NOT compatable.

TF


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## Jed Peters (Feb 4, 2004)

Don't be foolish, put a CK headset on that bike

FWIW: My wife's Record headset on her CT-1 is crap.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*I've always assumed...*



TurboTurtle said:


> since none of those sites mention the Hiddenset. I though all three angle were different (1 Campy and 2 for FSA std) and I am very sure that the bearings for the Campy and FSA std are a different size. Everything I have seen says NOT compatable.
> 
> TF


Hiddenset is Campy's version of intergrated HS but apparently not, or is it? What is Campy hiddenset?


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*Here is the Park explaination...*

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/howfix_headtypes.shtml

For integrated headsets, there are two "IS" (FSA developed trademark) versions with different top race angles and one Hiddenset (Campy trademark) version. According to averything I can find, they are not compatable and only C'dale uses the Campy.

TF


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*It's interesting that Campy would...*



TurboTurtle said:


> http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/howfix_headtypes.shtml
> 
> For integrated headsets, there are two "IS" (FSA developed trademark) versions with different top race angles and one Hiddenset (Campy trademark) version. According to averything I can find, they are not compatable and only C'dale uses the Campy.
> 
> TF


make an exclusive headset for C-dale or one (the cooler looking) of their two versions of HS is a such a specialized/rarely used type. 

Thanks for the link. I've never paid attention to that article before somehow.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Boneman, the EC import duty (much is harmonized including bikes), is for a complete bike. I think deep buried in some rule book a frameset only has around 5.5% duty.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

TurboTurtle said:


> http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/howfix_headtypes.shtml
> 
> For integrated headsets, there are two "IS" (FSA developed trademark) versions with different top race angles and one Hiddenset (Campy trademark) version. According to averything I can find, they are not compatable and only C'dale uses the Campy.
> 
> TF


Just to name another, there are Cannondale CAAD 5&7 frames that come with either Hiddenset or FSA. Also, look on the FSA site for the Orbit CF and CE. Then go to the Tech section on cyclingnews and check out the Team bikes. Look for Campagnolo Integrated on the bike brands I mentioned.


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## Max-Q (Feb 6, 2004)

What is the wait time on the C-50's? I ordered mine from Mike in early November. He told me it would be 90 days which has come and gone. Should I expect to wait until June or later? I don't know if I can wait that long!!! 

Oh yeah, just go with the CK headset. Put the best on the best and forget about it. I'll be mailing mine to Mike sometime soon.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*He has no clue!*



Max-Q said:


> What is the wait time on the C-50's? I ordered mine from Mike in early November. He told me it would be 90 days which has come and gone. Should I expect to wait until June or later? I don't know if I can wait that long!!!
> 
> Oh yeah, just go with the CK headset. Put the best on the best and forget about it. I'll be mailing mine to Mike sometime soon.


It's a good thing that I just got done putting together my KG486. I actually wasn't ready to order C50 yet. I needed to purchase another one like a hole in my head. It was just the next want-one-bike but with the exchange rate showing no sign of getting a breathe of air I went for Mike's offer of locking in the price if paid by "cheque." Actually I just put some deposit down and when the frame comes in I'll pay "the locked in" price by non-credit card/check method of payment. The wait is actually good for me; it gives me time to put some miles on 486 and figure out how I want my components redistributed. KG486 and C50 should be different animal altogether.

Now you guys will have to stop ragging me about me not wanting CK on my Colnagos. Like I said it's a personal thing. You guys can have CK on yer Nags. CK looks odd, to me, on Nags and to make a point, none of my headsets ever puked out on any of my road bike so far because they weren't CK although I've never kept any for all that long. Is this sound like an invitation to get ragged on even more


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

*Cannodale is not the only one*

My Casati Dardo has a Campy Hiddenset.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*Did you install it?...*



terry b said:


> My Casati Dardo has a Campy Hiddenset.


If so, any tricks to it? I am setting up a C'dale R-2000 with a Hiddenset.

TF


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

The cups were already in the frame when I got it. The rest of it was pretty straightforward, except it took a bit of energy and finesse to work that clear plastic ring down into the bearings. Beyond that, tightened the top cap and went off riding. Compared to the Cane Creek IS I have on another bike, it stayed really tight and has not required any additional adjustments.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*By "cups"...*



terry b said:


> The cups were already in the frame when I got it. The rest of it was pretty straightforward, except it took a bit of energy and finesse to work that clear plastic ring down into the bearings. Beyond that, tightened the top cap and went off riding. Compared to the Cane Creek IS I have on another bike, it stayed really tight and has not required any additional adjustments.


you mean the tapered head tube, right?

TF


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

TurboTurtle said:


> you mean the tapered head tube, right?
> 
> TF


No, the Campy HS on my Casati has bearing races or "cups" that the ball bearings ride in and that press (by hand) into the taper in the HT . I believe the Canny manual calls them "bearing retainers." The Cane Creek design I have on another bike has the bearing sitting directly in the HT itself with nothing in between the cartridge and the HT material.

Check this out (assuming you have not already seen it)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=howfix_headtypes


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Yep. The tapered Hiddenset cups/races self center in the taper of the head tube. The bearing rings ride in the cups and a rubber sealed race closes the unit off.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*What d'ya know, the frame came in...*



6was9 said:


> The wait is actually good for me; it gives me time to put some miles on 486 and figure out how I want my components redistributed. KG486 and C50 should be different animal altogether.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

If it was me I'd pull the Record off the MxL and put it on the C50. Then buy an 04 Chorus kit with carbon cranks and put it on the MxL.

But then I'm a huge Chorus fan and reserve Record for bikes I consider worthy (as in "dream bikes.") I just did one of those in Record last week and started looking to the next one. Bought 04 Chorus for that one. I know it's only another $300 bucks, but I think I'll throw that $300 at some stupid light bar and stem combination.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*It may be Campy,...*



terry b said:


> No, the Campy HS on my Casati has bearing races or "cups" that the ball bearings ride in and that press (by hand) into the taper in the HT . I believe the Canny manual calls them "bearing retainers." The Cane Creek design I have on another bike has the bearing sitting directly in the HT itself with nothing in between the cartridge and the HT material.
> 
> Check this out (assuming you have not already seen it)
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=howfix_headtypes


but it's not a Hiddenset. Here's the quote from the cyclingnews page you just gave me. "The bearings cone races do not press into the frame. The frame has a specially machined headtube, however, this standard is not interchangeable with the Integrated System described above." A Hiddenset has no cups. That's what an integrated headset is

TF.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

TurboTurtle said:


> but it's not a Hiddenset. Here's the quote from the cyclingnews page you just gave me. "The bearings cone races do not press into the frame. The frame has a specially machined headtube, however, this standard is not interchangeable with the Integrated System described above." A Hiddenset has no cups. That's what an integrated headset is
> 
> TF.



Well, I think it's all a matter of semantics. The Campy Hiddenset has top and bottom races (or cups for the lack of a better word) that the bearings ride in. These races do press into the frame in the traditional sense of pressing in traditional headset cups with a headset press. They sit in the properly machined headtube that is not compatable with any other kind of headset. On my bike, they may as well as have been pressed in, because the tolerances were so close that it was not exactly easy to take them out again. A true integrated headset (like the one on my Orbea) does not use ball bearings, it uses chamfered cartridges that sit in a like chamfered head tube. It has no cups. The Zero Stack headset does have cups that are apparently pressed (with a headset press) into the headtube.

Call them whatever you want, but the Campy Hiddenset (as depicted on the Cannondale tech site, we are talking Cannondale, yes?) is comprised (from the bottom up) of a crown race, a ring of ball bearings, a "cup/race/bearing retainer/whatever" that the bottom bearings ride in, another "cup/race/bearing retainer/whatever" that the top bearings ride in, a second ring full of ball bearings, a plastic ring that jams it all together, a rubber gasket and a top cap. The "cup/race/bearing retainer/whatevers" are hand pushed (we won't call it pressed) into the headtube.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*I already have a Chorus set...*



terry b said:


> If it was me I'd pull the Record off the MxL and put it on the C50. Then buy an 04 Chorus kit with carbon cranks and put it on the MxL.


with 04 Chorus carbon levers (I was thinking of putting carbon levers on one of my Look with Chorus) and regular Al crankset. My MXL looks sweet and rides even nicer with 03 carbon cranks + 03 Record set. I kinda don't want to dismember that sweet bike but I might have to since this shockingly early(?) delivery of C50 is putting a little strain on my cash box for toys right now to say the least; lately I've been bad and a little outta control. It always happens around this time when the long a$$ winter finally breaks you down and makes you go batty


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

6was9 said:


> with 04 Chorus carbon levers (I was thinking of putting carbon levers on one of my Look with Chorus) and regular Al crankset. My MXL looks sweet and rides even nicer with 03 carbon cranks + 03 Record set. I kinda don't want to dismember that sweet bike but I might have to since this shockingly early(?) delivery of C50 is putting a little strain on my cash box for toys right now to say the least; lately I've been bad and a little outta control. It always happens around this time when the long a$$ winter finally breaks you down and makes you go batty



I dunno, my MxL is pretty happy with Chorus. Putting Chorus on a C50 though might be in violation of some obscure Blue Law. If you've got an extra box of Chorus laying about, replace the Record on the MxL with the Chorus and treat the C50 with the respect it deserves. There is no shame in Chorus afterall. I've got 6 bikes with Chorus and 2 with Record. I've always preferred Chorus because I really liked the alloy levers. Was never concerned with the extra cost, but I could never convince myself that Record was worth it since the levers didn't turn me on. Now that they're both carbon, I really can't see spending the extra unless the frame demands it. C50 does and so does the custom I just finished building. My other bikes didn't.


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## 6was9 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Blue Law is Blue Law...*



terry b said:


> I dunno, my MxL is pretty happy with Chorus. Putting Chorus on a C50 though might be in violation of some obscure Blue Law. If you've got an extra box of Chorus laying about, replace the Record on the MxL with the Chorus and treat the C50 with the respect it deserves. There is no shame in Chorus afterall. I've got 6 bikes with Chorus and 2 with Record. I've always preferred Chorus because I really liked the alloy levers. Was never concerned with the extra cost, but I could never convince myself that Record was worth it since the levers didn't turn me on. Now that they're both carbon, I really can't see spending the extra unless the frame demands it. C50 does and so does the custom I just finished building. My other bikes didn't.


Obsure or not. So there it is, it will be Record on C50  

Now should I take the 04 Record w/ 04 Carbon cranks off my KG486 to transfer to C50 and transfer the 03 Record w/ 03 carbon cranks to KG486? Although KG486 is 03 it just looks futuristic and seem to deserve the 04 componentrys where as the classic looking 03 carbon cranks would seem to look fine on the 04 C50. Of course MXL will get the 03 Chorus that's just sittin there at the moment; no carbon cranks though. Now didiconfusyanuff?

It's just that I have this pretty close relationship with me MXL and I just hate to hurt its feeling. It's bad enough that the other day I was trying to rub out a couple of nicks on the MXL top tube with that auto scratch remover compound(?) and ended up making the damned tiny nicks visible white holes size of a grain. I feel so bad... it's a good thing that it's in the mostly black area (gettin a bottle of black auto touch up paint.) That scratch remover stuff works on the fine scuff makes if you have patience and some good circular motion muscle developement on yer fingers but not on paint nicks. Jeeez these Colnago paint jobs are so delicate that it's beyond belief...


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

*Let's go back to the beginning....*

I think you and I are saying the same thing. This started with my saying:

1 - The "IS" standard integrated headsets are not compatable with the Hiddenset. "A true integrated headset (like the one on my Orbea) does not use ball bearings, it uses chamfered cartridges that sit in a like chamfered head tube. It has no cups." So I think we agree. (Others in this thread did not, however.)

2 - Only C'dale uses the Hiddenset. I was wrong. Casati also uses it. (Here we were both saying the same thing about "cups".) I still have seen nothing to indicate that the others mentioned (Giant, Pinarello, and DeRosa) use a Hiddenset.

Some terms:

integrated headset - a generic term meaning the headset goes into a specially designed head tube that does not use a traditional cup.

"IS" - The FSA trademark implimentation of an integrated headset. There are two styles with different bearing bevels.

"Hiddenset" - The Campy trademark implimentation of the integrated headset that is not compatable with the "IS".

"SI" - The C'dale trademark for the use of and integrated headset and/or integrated bottom bracket.

"Zero Stack" or low profile - Tradtional cup style headset where the cup stack height is kept to an absolute minimum.

TF


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

I'd leave the Look alone. The C50 will be fine with whatever Record it gets.

What you said about hurting the MxL's feelings is really funny. I picked up a Force fork on eBay and told my MxL it was going to get it as a weight reduction. The next week along comes this Dream+ in GEO that I had to have. It was not supposed to come with a fork but the seller included a Flash at no extra charge. So here I am with a lightweight aluminum frame, a heavy steel steerer fork and a lighter carbon steerer fork. Choice was obvious - the Dream got the Force. 

I'm now waiting for the MxL to dump me off the side of the road. I did buy it a new stem and bar though as compensation. However, I can tell by the way it looks at me that it's still pissed.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

Isn't language great?

I think we're on the same page now.

tb


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

*To TurboTurtle*

Same page in a different book......

For DeRosa maybe you'll believe the owner:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=49
Pinarello from an actual owner as well:
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=41

....I've done enough proving now. Basically anything current that states Campagnolo Integrated is the Hiddenset. They don't make anything else that can be remotely considered integrated or internal. Next time at least verify the proof that was given before you repeatedly claim someone else is wrong.

BTW, the top of the line Time also uses the Hiddenset and last years Fondriest Top Carbon....


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