# Crank changeout question



## plimpington2 (Jul 8, 2011)

Hi,

I have a 2011 F5. About 8 months ago I started to get a click sound once per revolution whenever I put any torque on the crank. My LBS said the crank (or BB, or something) was loose. They tightened it up and bob's your uncle. However, same problem 3 months later. Same deal, all is good. Then same problem shortly thereafter again. And again. It's been in the shop for the same issue 4 times now . . .click sound whenever I apply any appreciable torque to the crank. 

In the meantime, I've been thinking about a new crank and set of wheels. I've settled on the 2012 SRAM Red crank and probably a set if SRAM wheels. Several questions:

1) given the problem discussed above, ought I to replace the BB when I replace the crank in order to ensure I get the click problem taken care of? 

2) That I have had this issue over and over again, is it possible that something more sinister is going on (such as a bad receptacle in the frame for the BB) that a new crank and BB won't fix? 

3) I'm going to assume that having my LBS replace my crank and wheels will be ruinously expensive. I am contemplating doing the work myself. What special tools will I need to replace crank and BB? What about getting the cassette on and off the rear wheel?

Thanks so much.

Justin


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

plimpington2 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a 2011 F5. About 8 months ago I started to get a click sound once per revolution whenever I put any torque on the crank. My LBS said the crank (or BB, or something) was loose. They tightened it up and bob's your uncle. However, same problem 3 months later. Same deal, all is good. Then same problem shortly thereafter again. And again. It's been in the shop for the same issue 4 times now . . .click sound whenever I apply any appreciable torque to the crank.
> 
> ...


1) There is no BB to replace. BB30's BB consists of two bearings and circlips, so if you want to start fresh, get new bearings and circlips along with your new crankset. SRAM may sell kits that'll include everything needed.

2) There's always a possibility that there is an underlying cause beyond the crankset/ BB interface itself, but IMO since the clicking goes away for a period of time whenever the LBS services the bike, I'd guess that the cause is with the crankset, bearings or methods of assembly/ adjustment. IMO/E many FSA cranksets aren't stellar performers.

3) From your question re: cassette removal/ installation, I'm going to assume you haven't done much wrenching on your bike. If that's the case, I suggest having your LBS do the crankset swap, with you specifying the parts to be replaced. I've included a Park Tool link below that may help you decide who should perform this work.

Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » BB30 Bearing System Service


----------



## BillyWayne (Aug 1, 2011)

Thats interesting. I also have a 2011 F5 with the same issue as you. I am going to pull the crank and take a look inside.


----------



## Bubba Hotep (Dec 28, 2008)

A riding buddy has the same issue with a different brand of carbon frame. Has tried everything to cure the clicking once per revolution. Now he's being told it might be the BB shell loosening in the carbon frame. If that's the case, I can't imagine there's any easy way to overcome that problem short of frame replacement. Perhaps someone on the forum has seen this issue.

On the other hand, another friend had the same problem when standing up and torquing the cranks. After we disassembled the bottom end and put it back together (with more Park grease) the problem persisted. We then looked at the headset and discovered it was dry from the factory. A little grease and the problem is gone. It's a year later and everything is still fine. Well, mostly. A click started up again but we discovered it a spoke/hub problem. Took us awhile to trace that deal. 

Bicycles are pretty simple compared to most forms of transportation. It's amazing that a creak that originates at one end of the machine can sometimes be heard somewhere else. Talk about make a fool out of you.


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

BillyWayne said:


> Thats interesting. I also have a 2011 F5 with the same issue as you. I am going to pull the crank and take a look inside.


I have 500 miles on my 2011 F5 started noticing this in the last couple of weeks as well. Plan to bring it into my dealer in the next couple of weeks and see what they find.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Bubba Hotep said:


> A riding buddy has the same issue with a different brand of carbon frame. Has tried everything to cure the clicking once per revolution. Now he's being told it might be the BB shell loosening in the carbon frame. If that's the case, I can't imagine there's any easy way to overcome that problem short of frame replacement. Perhaps someone on the forum has seen this issue.
> 
> On the other hand, another friend had the same problem when standing up and torquing the cranks. After we disassembled the bottom end and put it back together (with more Park grease) the problem persisted. We then looked at the headset and discovered it was dry from the factory. A little grease and the problem is gone. It's a year later and everything is still fine. Well, mostly. A click started up again but we discovered it a spoke/hub problem. Took us awhile to trace that deal.
> 
> Bicycles are pretty simple compared to most forms of transportation. It's amazing that a creak that originates at one end of the machine can sometimes be heard somewhere else. Talk about make a fool out of you.


You make some good points here. While bikes are simple in concept, tracking down the source of noises can be pretty complex. We all have similar stories, where one component was suspect, but the problem turned out to be on another part of the bike.

Re: the different brand of bike with a possible BB loosening in the shell, depending on the design, that's possible. Some BB shells are full CF, while others use alloy sleeves screwed/ epoxied in place. If your friends is the latter, it may be able to be repaired. _All_ CF shells are a little trickier, requiring either shims or frame replacements (assuming the BB shell is the cause).

All that said, I've come to the conclusion that (at present) the benefits of BB30 designs (lighter weight/ arguably stiffer) don't outweigh the nagging durability issues. It's not just Felt. Trek and Specialized have had their share of problems - well documented in their respective manufacturers forums.


----------



## BillyWayne (Aug 1, 2011)

I am thinking now that it may be the rear hub. I pulled the wheel off to do some repacking of the bearings and found that the freehub has issues. My hex set only goes to 10mm and I need a 12 to get this thing off so I now have to go and buy a hex tool. There is some pitting on the cones. The bike is less than a year old and already the cheeseball hubs are giving me issues. I will do some maintenance on these wheels but I bought a new wheel set to replace them. I do not know who makes the Felt hubs but I am disappointed.


----------



## Bubba Hotep (Dec 28, 2008)

I would like to like the idea of the larger BB but I am still riding an 18 year old ti frame that I just slap newish stuff on like later model Shimano Ultegra 6600 outboard bearings and a regular old 24mm 6600 crankshaft nowadays. They work fine and the setup is easy to service and diagnose any issues. Perhaps the BB30 arrangement is cheaper/easier to manufacture? Maybe not. Perhaps it's just better. What do I know, anyway? I just like to be able to disassemble stuff and put it back together.

I'd like to buy one of Felt's bikes as a spare to my Litespeed but I have not ridden his carbon bikes or one of his aluminum frames. I can't imagine what a modern AL frame rides like as there must have been real improvements since I rode a hand-me-down Cannondale in the early 90s. I'm sure the new Felt bikes are all well-made but can't ever locate either a carbon or AL F-series in my size (61cm) at local dealers. I'd have to buy one to try it out, apparently. It's a challenge and I can't blame dealers for not stocking every size.

Anyway, what you say about what shell material is supporting the BB30 bearing makes a lot of sense. Don't the Felt carbon frames have an aluminum shell bonded into the frame?

By the way the "clicking" frame is a specialized tarmac with those big Delrin spacers installed so we can use a 24mm Dura-Ace crankshaft. The frame was a replacement deal with the plastic spacers installed when we received it. I don't really want to mess with it but I can tell you, if you grab the pedals to check the cranks for axial (radial?) play you can feel movement. The cranks are tightened to spec, also. Not my bike so I can't make the call on what to do at this point.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Bubba Hotep said:


> Anyway, what you say about what shell material is supporting the BB30 bearing makes a lot of sense. *Don't the Felt carbon frames have an aluminum shell bonded into the frame?*


Depends on the model. Re: Felts F series, one uses an alloy sleeve (FC), the other has a full CF shell (F1). The bottom line is that (no matter the material used for the BB shell) PF-30/ OSBB (PressFit 30) requires the use of 46mm composite cups and a BB shell of 46mm's (ID). Standard BB30 uses no cups and requires a BB shell of 41.96mm's (ID).



Bubba Hotep said:


> By the way the "clicking" frame is a specialized tarmac with those big Delrin spacers installed so we can use a 24mm Dura-Ace crankshaft. The frame was a replacement deal with the plastic spacers installed when we received it. I don't really want to mess with it but I can tell you, if you grab the pedals to check the cranks for axial (radial?) play you can feel movement. The cranks are tightened to spec, also. Not my bike so I can't make the call on what to do at this point.


That's interesting. Of all the BB30/ adapter setups I've heard of, the BB30 delrin adapters seem to have the best track record. 

If the adapters look like the ones in the link below, make sure your friends bike has the correct ones installed. There are specific adapters for Shimano, SRAM and FSA and they're not all interchangeable. 
2012 Wheels Mfg BB30 Adapter for Shimano - Competitive Cyclist


----------



## JockeyWheel (Mar 18, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> Depends on the model. Some have alloy sleeves, others are full CF shells. The alloy sleeves are set up for BB30 (a la C'dale), while the full CF shells are OSBB (or press fit) like the more current Specialized bikes.


I'm not familiar with Specialized BBs, I assume you mean that their current shells are PF30. I don't know about other Felt models with a carbon shell, but the F1 is not a PF30. The ID of the shell is a tick under 42mm and there are no cups. The bearings press directly into the carbon shell.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

pj352 said:


> Depends on the model. Some have alloy sleeves, others are full CF shells. The alloy sleeves are set up for BB30 (a la C'dale), while the full CF shells are OSBB (or press fit) like the more current Specialized bikes.





JockeyWheel said:


> I'm not familiar with Specialized BBs, I assume you mean that their current shells are PF30. I don't know about other Felt models with a carbon shell, but the F1 is not a PF30. The ID of the shell is a tick under 42mm and there are no cups. The bearings press directly into the carbon shell.


Yes, my post above wasn't clear, so I went back and edited it to correspond with a post I authored in the related BB30 thread. 

The bottom line is that (no matter the material used for the BB shell) PF-30/ OSBB (PressFit 30) requires the use of 46mm composite cups and a BB shell of 46mm's (ID). Standard BB30 uses no cups and requires a BB shell of 41.96mm's (ID).

Bubba Hotep - Here's Specialized BB compatibility chart:
http://service.specialized.com/coll...m-Bracket---Oversized-Road-Bottom-Bracket.pdf


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

BGS4MVP said:


> I have 500 miles on my 2011 F5 started noticing this in the last couple of weeks as well. Plan to bring it into my dealer in the next couple of weeks and see what they find.


Just returned from my LBS - the just tightened it up and "Hope" that would fix it.
It did not.
5 miles down the road the clicking is just as bad as before. I'm pretty green - based on anyone else's previous experience, is this common and easily fixed, or will it require replacement of the crank/bearings?


----------



## wotnoshoeseh (Apr 9, 2011)

Bubba Hotep said:


> We then looked at the headset and discovered it was dry from the factory. A little grease and the problem is gone.
> .


I had exactly the same issue on a F4 frame from the factory. The LBS asked me if I had it apart.
It was as it came from the factory. Dis-assembly, application of grease, re-assembly and it's fixed.

My question though is how in all that's holy did it get out of the factory like that??


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

BGS4MVP said:


> Just returned from my LBS - the just tightened it up and "Hope" that would fix it.
> It did not.
> 5 miles down the road the clicking is just as bad as before. I'm pretty green - based on anyone else's previous experience, is this common and easily fixed, or will it require replacement of the crank/bearings?


I'm no expert and have not had firsthand experience with this set up, but from reading/ research, I think what I posted in response to plimpington2 likely applies. That being...

_There's always a possibility that there is an underlying cause beyond the crankset/ BB interface itself, but IMO since the clicking goes away for a period of time whenever the LBS services the bike, I'd guess that the cause is with the crankset, bearings or methods of assembly/ adjustment. IMO/E many FSA cranksets aren't stellar performers. _

The method wotnoshoeseh's LBS used will probably stave off further issues for a longer duration, but even that method isn't 100% successful.


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> I'm no expert and have not had firsthand experience with this set up, but from reading/ research, I think what I posted in response to plimpington2 likely applies. That being...
> 
> _There's always a possibility that there is an underlying cause beyond the crankset/ BB interface itself, but IMO since the clicking goes away for a period of time whenever the LBS services the bike, I'd guess that the cause is with the crankset, bearings or methods of assembly/ adjustment. IMO/E many FSA cranksets aren't stellar performers. _
> 
> The method wotnoshoeseh's LBS used will probably stave off further issues for a longer duration, but even that method isn't 100% successful.


Thanks - I'll bring it back in later this week, have them pull it apart and see if anything is amiss...
If it is a Crankset issue - what would be a suitable replacement on my '11 F5?

Thanks again.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

BGS4MVP said:


> Thanks - I'll bring it back in later this week, have them pull it apart and see if anything is amiss...
> *If it is a Crankset issue - what would be a suitable replacement on my '11 F5?*
> 
> Thanks again.


Honestly, if it were my bike I'd look into replacing the crankset with a Shimano 105 or Ultegra. There are adapters available (first link below) that would allow installation in BB30 shells.

Just a FYI, the second link is a recall notice on FSA Gossamer Pro cranksets. Your Felt isn't listed in the notice, but the specs for your bike list that model crankset. Might be something to print and bring to your LBS.

But... I'd dump the Gossamer. 

Bikeman Wheels Manufacturing BB30 Bottom Bracket Adaptor Set for Hollowtech II Cranks

Gossamer BB30 Recall Notice


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

PJ352 said:


> Honestly, if it were my bike I'd look into replacing the crankset with a Shimano 105 or Ultegra. There are adapters available (first link below) that would allow installation in BB30 shells.
> 
> Just a FYI, the second link is a recall notice on FSA Gossamer Pro cranksets. Your Felt isn't listed in the notice, but the specs for your bike list that model crankset. Might be something to print and bring to your LBS.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the recall - unfortunately, the serial on my crank starts with 10F, so it doesn't appear to be included. If they pull it apart and everything looks as it should, I'll likely just opt for the crank changeout to a 105 compact. Looks like I can pick it up for $200-ish and get the bottom bracket adapter for $30. If it alleviates the problem, well worth it...

Thanks!


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

Well, my 2011 F5 is back in the shop again for the third time for the same issue. My LBS is concerned about the cup - I admit I didn't fully understand the explanation, but they contacted Felt directly a week ago for advice on how to handle the issue, and they have yet to hear back.

I'm starting to get nervous - SuperDave, I don't suppose you can help, can you!?


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

Alright - so after two weeks, I finally got my bike back last night!

Apparently the bearings were sticking out a little too far, or weren't pressed all the way in or something, but Felt shipped by LBS new bearings at little or no cost and it appears to be good as new. I took her out for a quick 10-mile jaunt last night and not a single creak or crack to be heard. I'll be taking her out this weekend and really put her through the paces and see how she performs.

Thanks to Alt Bike Shop in Minneapolis and Felt for taking care of me! Hopefully this is the last I see of them this season...


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

...And my 2011 F5 is back in the shop for a fourth time. This time, instead of a clicking or cracking sound, it was more like a grinding sound and it was very loud. My frustration is mounting.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

BGS4MVP said:


> ...And my 2011 F5 is back in the shop for a fourth time. This time, instead of a clicking or cracking sound, it was more like a grinding sound and it was very loud. *My frustration is mounting*.


I'll refer you to my post dated 06-06-2012.


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

UPDATE - Well, after three weeks of my LBS and Felt going back and forth on possible fixes, my LBS just sent my bike to Felt and let them figure it out because, thus far, nothing as worked...

My shop thinks the bike is faulty and that Felt should replace, but I guess my fate now lies in the hands of Felt. If they think they can fix it, I hope it's a permanent fix because this back and forth is getting tiresome and my riding season here in Minnesota is fleeting. If they don't think they can come up with a permanent solution, I can only hope they do the right thing and replace it. Felt seems to have been very reasonable in that regard in the past, so I hope I can come back here and report a similar pleasant customer service experience.


----------



## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

I just got a 2013 Z4 on Monday. Took it out for a ride yesterday and it was clicking once per pedal stroke from the moment I left the driveway. It's going back to the shop in the next day or so.


----------



## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

chudak said:


> I just got a 2013 Z4 on Monday. Took it out for a ride yesterday and it was clicking once per pedal stroke from the moment I left the driveway. It's going back to the shop in the next day or so.


Just a follow up...

Took it into the shop and had the mechanic take a look. He heard the sound on the test ride so we ruled out my shoes/cleats. He thinks it was because the wavy washer on the BB wasn't very compressed and this left plan in the BB. He added a couple extra spacers and reinstalled the wavy washer which is now almost totally compressed. The sound is gone. Fingers crossed...


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

Hey Chudak - hopefully it's a permanent resolution and you can avoid my situation...

My bike has been in Felt's hands for two weeks now and they STILL have not made a decision to either fix or replace. Thus, I have been without my bike for over a month now - two months in all counting previous shop visits. This seems out of character for a company I have otherwise heard positive customer service stories about.

Two months without a bike during a Minnesota riding season is pretty debilitating. I can't imagine what's taking so long.


----------



## chudak (Jul 28, 2012)

BGS4MVP said:


> Hey Chudak - hopefully it's a permanent resolution and you can avoid my situation...
> 
> My bike has been in Felt's hands for two weeks now and they STILL have not made a decision to either fix or replace. Thus, I have been without my bike for over a month now - two months in all counting previous shop visits. This seems out of character for a company I have otherwise heard positive customer service stories about.
> 
> Two months without a bike during a Minnesota riding season is pretty debilitating. I can't imagine what's taking so long.


My bike went back into the shop on Sunday for another clicking noise. I thought it was from the seat or seatpost but they think it is from the BB. They've still got the bike and I haven't heard back anything yet.

Hoping this doesn't turn into a saga like some others. Only time will tell.


----------



## BGS4MVP (May 16, 2012)

chudak said:


> My bike went back into the shop on Sunday for another clicking noise. I thought it was from the seat or seatpost but they think it is from the BB. They've still got the bike and I haven't heard back anything yet.
> 
> Hoping this doesn't turn into a saga like some others. Only time will tell.


Yeah, as of now, I've heard of 5 different stories (including my own) that have started as a clicking noise, and in every situation, it was with the BB30/FSA Gossamer combination - Usually bearing related. Perhaps it's a bad fit for these bikes?

I've read a few other manufacturer areas of this site, and while they certainly aren't perfect, I haven't read of any issues like this.

Best of luck. I'll be sure to keep this thread updated when a resolution has been made.


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

BGS4MVP said:


> Yeah, as of now, I've heard of 5 different stories (including my own) that have started as a clicking noise, and in every situation, it was with the BB30/FSA Gossamer combination - Usually bearing related. Perhaps it's a bad fit for these bikes?
> 
> *I've read a few other manufacturer areas of this site, and while they certainly aren't perfect, I haven't read of any issues like this.*
> 
> Best of luck. I'll be sure to keep this thread updated when a resolution has been made.


JMO, but Specialized and Trek have had more than their fair share of OSBB/ BB30/ PF30 related issues. But as you say, not with the FSA combo. Still, I think this lends credence that the consumer is 'field testing' the various iterations, so for now I'm staying with Hollowtech's (and similar).


----------



## Andy Pancroft (Jul 15, 2011)

Hope you got this taken care of.


----------



## Bubba Hotep (Dec 28, 2008)

Praxxis now makes a BB that changes the PF to an outboard bearing BB that will take a 24mm Shimano crank. OK, it means you'll have to buy a 24mm crank. However, if I buy a Felt Z85 and like the ride but start having BB creaking that the LBS and Felt can't address, I'd toss one of those Praxxis BBs at the frame before I throw it away. I happen to have a spare Ultegra 6600 crank I bought cheap on eBay in the box so it might work for me. YMMV. It's just an option to consider if you like your bike, other than the BB problems. Apparently Praxxis is addressing a real problem that's been popping up.


----------



## brawlo (Jun 16, 2011)

Bubba Hotep said:


> Praxxis now makes a BB that changes the PF to an outboard bearing BB that will take a 24mm Shimano crank.


+1

I was just reading through here and going to suggest this option. I run 180mm cranks and ditched the FSA crankset that came with my new 2012 F4 straight away. I got the wheels adapters as that was what I had read as having pretty much the best success stories. Browsing around after mounting the new cankset up, I came across these. I will definitely make the change to the Praxxis once my bearings need changing. They look like a great and well thought out concept


----------

