# Who cares about LA, Der Kaiser says he's feeling good



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

From cyclingnews.com - 



> *Ullrich "bang on schedule" for Le Tour*
> 
> While still lacking a bit of "va-va-voom" in the time trial as Jan Ullrich puts it, the T-Mobile captain and mentor Rudy Pevenage are more than satisfied with his pre-Tour de France build-up.
> 
> ...


OK Jan, stay the hell off the knockwurst & beer until July, and you may get the chance to foil LA's 7th.


----------



## Coot72 (Nov 11, 2002)

*I dunno*

I like Ullrich, and he's a great athlete. But I think that Jan is too stupid to win the Tour, and his directors keep getting their asses handed to them by Lance and Co. T-Mobile also has too many leaders, and the team is not entirely dedicated to Jan. In 2003, it was competitive, because Lance didn't have his usual form. So unless Ullrich starts putting out more watts than ever, he's not going to win.

One thing in Jan's favor is that lance is going to be nearly 34 this year. maybe father time and not Jan is going to make the difference.

Coot!


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

All true, but it's nice to give him some hope - I guess.


----------



## technocycle (Oct 29, 2004)

*There is always second best*



Coot72 said:


> I like Ullrich, and he's a great athlete. But I think that Jan is too stupid to win the Tour, and his directors keep getting their asses handed to them by Lance and Co. T-Mobile also has too many leaders, and the team is not entirely dedicated to Jan. In 2003, it was competitive, because Lance didn't have his usual form. So unless Ullrich starts putting out more watts than ever, he's not going to win.
> 
> One thing in Jan's favor is that lance is going to be nearly 34 this year. maybe father time and not Jan is going to make the difference.
> 
> Coot!


Jan will always be that second place guy. If Lance had never come back from Cancer and retired, Jan would have been the great tour leader, but every sport always has that second place guy and in cycling it just so happens to be Jan.

Even though he has only won one tour de france and never beat Lance, he has put together one very impressive resume, winning just about everything else.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Coot72 said:


> But I think that Jan is too stupid to win the Tour Coot!


Can you provide an instance to support this claim?

As best I can remember he's lost every tour because he couldn't climb the final stage's col and/or couldn't TT as fast as Armstrong. That doesn't take any brains.


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

I was reading an article (forgot now what site it was, maybe velonews.com) about a guy who was riding the Paris-Roubaix route and giving his impressions. He stopped to talk to a couple of old-timer French farmers in the hinterlands, and when they learned he was American they said, "A true champion rides all the races." - a polite slam of LA. 

Now I ask ye, who is going to know cycling better than the old farmers that live on the P-R route? They've seen the likes of Johan, Eddy, Poulidor, and all the rest. To them I'm sure, LA was conspicuous by his absence.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

technocycle said:


> Even though he has only won one tour de france and never beat Lance, he has put together one very impressive resume, winning just about everything else.


I pull for Jan every year but in fairness, he ain't much better than Armstrong at being a one-trick pony. The location of the Tour in the annual calender doesn't leave much room for another peak. 

He certainly hasn't won "everything else", like a Merckx or Hinault. No Giro, no significant one-day races (other than the Olympics), certainly no monuments, not even too many shorter significant stage races. He may have a slightly better extra-Tour palmares than Armstrong since they've both been focusing on it, but not by much.


----------



## BuenosAires (Apr 3, 2004)

technocycle said:


> Jan will always be that second place guy. If Lance had never come back from Cancer and retired, Jan would have been the great tour leader, but every sport always has that second place guy and in cycling it just so happens to be Jan.
> 
> Even though he has only won one tour de france and never beat Lance, he has put together one very impressive resume, winning just about everything else.


Actually, he hasn't really won anything else. The Vuelta once, and the Olympics, but that's it.


----------



## technocycle (Oct 29, 2004)

BuenosAires said:


> Actually, he hasn't really won anything else. The Vuelta once, and the Olympics, but that's it.



I would not consider this a bad resume. 
2 stage wins Tour de Suisse 2004 
winner Tour de Suisse 2004 
2nd overall Tour de France 2003 
stage win Tour de France 2003 
2nd overall Tour de France 2001 
German Champion (road racing) 2001 
World Champion (ITT) 2001 
2nd overall Tour de France 2000 
Olympic Champion (road racing) 2000 
2nd place Olympic Games (ITT) 2000 
winner Vuelta 1999 
World Champion (ITT) 1999 
3 stage wins Tour de France 1998 
2nd overall Tour de France 1998 
winner Tour de France 1997 
2 stage wins Tour de France 1997 
German Champion (road racing) 1997 
2nd overall Tour de France 1996 
Amateur World Champion 1993


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

technocycle said:


> I would not consider this a bad resume.
> 2 stage wins Tour de Suisse 2004
> winner Tour de Suisse 2004
> 2nd overall Tour de France 2003
> ...



That's a much better palmares' than mine!


----------



## 97 Teran (Feb 17, 2004)

*Let's get realistic, folks*

I'd like for Jan to do well as much as anyone else wants it- he's a rather classy guy, for the most part, and any genuine competition for Armstrong is good for the sport. But let's be real here- his palmares-where-he-did-some-decent-stuff-a-couple-years-ago aside, Ullie is pretty much a one trick pony who can't even do that one trick. Armstrong is a great cyclist who is nowhere near the alltime best, but all this perpetual knocking him because he aims for one main goal is silly- show me one, just one, grand tour threat (and by that I mean someone who finishes top 3 without it being a fluke) who behaves any differently from Armstrong. In fact, I don't think there is anyone who even finishes top 7 or 8 in the Tour combined with a win in the Giro or Vuelta in the same year these days. Maybe all the traditionalists need to get around to realizing that things change. Riders don't sleep on the side of the road anymore, they don't get disqualified if they get help when their fork breaks, and- gasp!- they specialize. You may not actually like it, and that's fine, but... just as we learned to embrace email in the 90s and cable tv in the 80s, we need to adapt. However, this doesn't excuse all the "Lance = best ever" tripe that fans repeat as if by rote. As if we needed more proof that people tend not to think for themselves... or at all.

Sorry for the at-times rough attitude; I just think we need to be realistic about everything.


----------



## Chris T (Jul 19, 2002)

Well put 97 Teran. Pretty much all the riders today are specialists. There are those that focus on the classics, those that focus on the tours, and those that focus on other events. If you spread yourself out, like cyclists of yester-year, you're not going to win anything. Too bad in one way, as it would be great to see another great champ like Eddie, although I guess this would take away from his mystique and grandeur!

I too am a Jan fan. Even though he's got the partying, high lifestyle, highest bankrolled team, he still seems like the working stiff on the bike just trying to catch a break. LA, partly through no fault of his own and my own exposure to predominantly North American tv, appears to be living the rock and roll lifestyle and brings out that bit of jealousy in me that wants to see him fail. I respected him most in 2003 when it really was in question as to whether he'd win or not. 

Will Jan win this year? If Lance is in form and focused, probably not. History doesn't rewrite itself. That, and as I've said before, T-Mobile doesn't seem to want to commit to supporting one rider only. Instead, they'll likely have three going for GC (Ullrich, Kloden and Vino) and one going for green (Zabel). Better chance you'll get something? See my first comments, I think you need to specialize, including having a specialized team behind you. It's worked for a certain 6 time tour champion!


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*German*

bike fans have the same singularity towards the TdF that most American bike fans have. both riders focus on the event that does the most good for their sponsors.
yes all specialists now mostly, it's why I'm pulling for Vino.


----------



## Asiago (Jan 28, 2004)

*Inferior*



technocycle said:


> I would not consider this a bad resume.
> 2 stage wins Tour de Suisse 2004
> winner Tour de Suisse 2004
> 2nd overall Tour de France 2003
> ...


Well, not a bad palmares at all, but that's nothing compared to Lance's, let's be honest here. Who's got a complete listing of his wins? A list that will include wins like his Rund Kolm win in 2003?


----------



## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I dunno*

considering he's been a top rider since 97 that list looks anaemic.
some WC's (lost their lustre long ago)
some Olympics (same)
some German Races (who cares)
TdF stages.
Tour of Switzerland.
not impressive, but then again to me Lance's isn't either.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

T-Mobile's best Grand Tour riders are all on the downside of their careers. Kloden is a one trick wonder, who seems to work his mouth better then his pedals. Bad mouthing the classy and well respected Eric Zabel several times, disappearing for serveral years' result wise, and crappy form again this year. One year wonder defined. Vino hasn't looked very good this year in comparision to the past. 

Ullrich wasn't even second last year- he was *fourth*, and off of the podium. He still has the same idiot DS as last year, and he is another year older and still as fragile as a hot house flower. His climbing is getting worse, and Kloden certainly isn't going to help him out, as that guy is convinced of his self-importance. Vino isn't as strong as the past, and only seems active once he is out of GC contention and allowed free shots up the road by the GC contenders teams. 

As far as the crack about great champions riding year 'round, that is the typical pathetic excuse making for why a french rider hasn't won le Tour in many many years. Heck they even forgave the King of the Dopers just because he was the only one winning _anything_ for them (the basically uncontested Polka Dot jersey "competition"). None of the top Tour riders ride for wins for a full season, the closest to it might be Cunego's season last year, and that was widely viewed as an aberation. The races are too fast, as teams are much better at having racers targeted and on top form for every major race. CSC in particular has advanced this to an art, targeting the early season races with specific on form riders for each race.


----------



## Asiago (Jan 28, 2004)

*WC's?*



atpjunkie said:


> considering he's been a top rider since 97 that list looks anaemic.
> some WC's (lost their lustre long ago)
> some Olympics (same)
> some German Races (who cares)
> ...


I didn't think Jan had won a world cup race? Which one? I know he's finished 2nd in Zurich (didn't he win that BEFORE it became a world cup).


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

97 Teran said:


> show me one, just one, grand tour threat (and by that I mean someone who finishes top 3 without it being a fluke) who behaves any differently from Armstrong. Q
> QUOTE]
> 
> Certainly not common, but...
> ...


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I don't fault Armstrong for being a one-trick Pony, I fault him for never have the ball to try to be anything but a one-trick pony. And by all indications that is how his career will end.


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Coolhand said:


> As far as the crack about great champions riding year 'round, that is the typical pathetic excuse making for why a french rider hasn't won le Tour in many many years.


I don't agree that the old-timer's (or traditionalists) say that about LA merely as an excuse for their own country's lack of a champion. Many Amur-cuns also think that about him, today's current "specialization" tactics notwithstanding.


----------



## spox (May 10, 2002)

*Jan may be older, but so is Lance too*

So things are pretty even. Remember how Jan after his problems with drugs and Coast-Bianchi jumping around came to Tour and showed some kick-ass? Usual overweight mumblings in media and this is what it looked like. Fatty? Eh? 










To count him off is pretty dangerous. And Kloden is very good stage racer, I guess best German to come.

edit:typos


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

spox said:


> Jan may be older, but so is Lance too


Well LA is 33, and Jan is 31. LA is retiring after TdF, and Jan isn't, so I guess that's that.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

spox said:


> And Kloden is very good stage racer, I guess best German to come.
> 
> edit:typos


If memory serves me Kloden came largely out of nowhere in 2000 when he won Paris-Nice & Basque country tour. In fact, I think it was the '99 WC road race when Kloden was on the front setting a mean pace up the main climb to reduce the bunch late in the race, and Liggett didn't even know he was (he thought it was Klier). After his 2000 including bronze in the Olympic Road race, he was suppose to be the great heir of Ulrich. Then he dropped off the face of the earth until last year's TdF. He once again this year seems to not be able to find any form. So Kloden can be a very good stage racer, but most of the time he's not even in the picture. Unless he really turns it around he won't be a player at this year's Tour either. And he'll be 30 this year, which suggests he doesn't have too many year's to come.


----------



## cannondale_boy (May 6, 2004)

*One Trick Pony...*

Your right Mr. Barry.

However, the counter arguement, the one race you do dominant is the best stage race in the world?


----------



## spox (May 10, 2002)

*Bad luck*

Kloden lost 2 seasons w/ knee problems, but is hopeful for this year. His abandoning in Basque Tour doesn't mean anything more than Lance doing same early this season. Both said like 'need more training'. FW and L-B-L are scheduled for Klöden next. Nobody takes second place in TdF final general classification with good luck. Klöden ability to TT in stage 19 after 3 week racing showed who is who (compared to Basso,Julich, Rogers, Landis etc) It's not easy money for Armstrong.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

spox said:


> Kloden lost 2 seasons w/ knee problems, but is hopeful for this year. His abandoning in Basque Tour doesn't mean anything more than Lance doing same early this season. Both said like 'need more training'. FW and L-B-L are scheduled for Kl? next. Nobody takes second place in TdF final general classification with good luck. Kl? ability to TT in stage 19 after 3 week racing showed who is who (compared to Basso,Julich, Rogers, Landis etc) It's not easy money for Armstrong.


Where did I say it was luck? I'm just pointing out he's got a history of either not being very good at all (most of the time), or being really good. So far this year he's not even been able to follow the bunch, and I haven't heard anything about knee problems this year. He might turn it around, but I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## Old_school_nik (May 21, 2002)

*Who will lead T-Mobile though?*

Who will ride for who? Who will be protected? 

Will Vino ride for Jan?

Will Kloden riden for Jan?

Will Jan ride for Sevilla or Vino if they smoke him in the first Mt stage?


Jan has one thing going for him in that Le Tour starts with a 19 km flat ITT. A perfect distance for Jan to finally jump out to a lead or at least get 30 seconds on the rest of his T-Mobile leaders - this may help him get the leader designation early - I don't see any of the others on T-Mobile beating Jan in this first test.

Perhaps, the first half of the tour will be exciting before Jan inevitibly gets dropped in the MTS.

-Nik


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

cannondale_boy said:


> Your right Mr. Barry.
> the best stage race in the world?


I don't know about that? It certainly is the "biggest" race in terms of media coverage/prestige for winning. I find the mix of flat, rolling, and mountain stages much better interspersed in the Giro and Vuelta leading to a better overal race. France's geography has a lot to do with it but the route of the Tour is fairly fixed and predictable. Almost 10 days of nothing, fortunately they've returned to the TTT to make it somewhat interesting for the GC, then a TT, then the Alps, a few easy days, then the Pyrenees (or switch the order of the mountians) a few easy days, TT, and then final day. Plus parody makes for interesting racing. Having a clear, dominant favorite with a strong team leads to boring racing. Everyone just follows until the last mountain and see's what happens then. From an entertainment perspective almost every Giro/Vuelta I can remember has been a better race than the TdF's.


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I don't know about that? It certainly is the "biggest" race in terms of media coverage/prestige for winning. I find the mix of flat, rolling, and mountain stages much better interspersed in the Giro and Vuelta leading to a better overal race. France's geography has a lot to do with it but the route of the Tour is fairly fixed and predictable. Almost 10 days of nothing, fortunately they've returned to the TTT to make it somewhat interesting for the GC, then a TT, then the Alps, a few easy days, then the Pyrenees (or switch the order of the mountians) a few easy days, TT, and then final day. Plus parody makes for interesting racing. Having a clear, dominant favorite with a strong team leads to boring racing. Everyone just follows until the last mountain and see's what happens then. From an entertainment perspective almost every Giro/Vuelta I can remember has been a better race than the TdF's.



I'd agree with that. I wish they'd do a TdF with one of the MT sections in the first week, broken up by the flat stages and TT's, then the other MT stages in the last week. It could be done, but the format is so ingrained I doubt it ever will.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Old_school_nik said:


> Who will ride for who? Who will be protected?
> 
> Will Vino ride for Jan?
> 
> ...


Sevilla was on the pavement again today at the FW, and still hadn't got up when the cameras left him. Although he didn't look too badly hurt, he was just sitting there in the ditch.


----------



## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

spox said:


> So things are pretty even. Remember how Jan after his problems with drugs and Coast-Bianchi jumping around came to Tour and showed some kick-ass? Usual overweight mumblings in media and this is what it looked like. Fatty? Eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the kind of "fat" I want to be 

Kloden isn't even going to show up at the TdF (physically he will, but that's it).

Isn't Ullrich a pretty decent climber? He did finish second in the Alp d'huez TT last year, inspite of getting dropped on those two first mountain stages.


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

Einstruzende said:


> That's the kind of "fat" I want to be


Amen to that! Those pistons look like they could snap his knee joints at any time. The man is a friggin' DIESEL.


----------



## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

The Tour needs new blood - not just in terms of the competition but in terms of the organisation. ASO may have brought in Prudhomme as fresh blood but he's just a yes man and hardly likely to challenge the accepted order of things. There is certainly an 'if it aint broke...' attitude with the Tour which needs challenging - look at some of the initiatives Unipublic, who run the Vuelta, have looked at like running the race with 2 pelotons in the first week. They may not have happened, but it shows they're willing to look at new ways of organising the race, like finishing with a TT, having mountain stages throughout the 3 weeks, finding new climbs etc. The TdF is lagging well behind in terms of innovation.


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I don't know about that? It certainly is the "biggest" race in terms of media coverage/prestige for winning. I find the mix of flat, rolling, and mountain stages much better interspersed in the Giro and Vuelta leading to a better overal race. France's geography has a lot to do with it but the route of the Tour is fairly fixed and predictable. Almost 10 days of nothing, fortunately they've returned to the TTT to make it somewhat interesting for the GC, then a TT, then the Alps, a few easy days, then the Pyrenees (or switch the order of the mountians) a few easy days, TT, and then final day. Plus parody makes for interesting racing. Having a clear, dominant favorite with a strong team leads to boring racing. Everyone just follows until the last mountain and see's what happens then. From an entertainment perspective almost every Giro/Vuelta I can remember has been a better race than the TdF's.


I would have a hard time swallowing that. I think the same would be said if the riders that are in the TDF were in the Vuelta or the Giro. The openness of riding in the Giro and Vuelta I believe are strictly due to the caliber of rider that is there. The A teams, behind the A Dawgs are at the Tour. They are much more capable of controlling a race, and the big dawgs are much more capable of knowing when to counter and when not to worry about it. 

The TDF is the "Best" not because of the media. The media has nothing to do with it. The Media are there, because the best riders and the best teams in the world are all in the same place at the same time.

If you watch the Giro last year, it was BORING as hell. Cunego tore it up and that was fun, but sprint after sprint after sprint is BORING. Then the mountains, then the Time trial. Its all the same. The Vuelta has Steeper Climbs? Look at elevation gain last year from the Tour to the other two. The Tour smoked them both.

The point is, the Tour is exactly like the other two races in most every way, the only difference is how it is ridden. The Tour is the Tour, and the other two are for everyone "else". Its a sad fact, but that is the way it is, and one of the major reasons for the Pro Tour.


----------



## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Indurain, Hinault, Merckx and Anquetil would be fascinated to hear that the Giro - a race that each of them won, racing against opposition that they would face and beat again in 2 months time, was a race for 'also rans'.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Jdawg said:


> I would have a hard time swallowing that. I think the same would be said if the riders that are in the TDF were in the Vuelta or the Giro. The openness of riding in the Giro and Vuelta I believe are strictly due to the caliber of rider that is there. The A teams, behind the A Dawgs are at the Tour. They are much more capable of controlling a race, and the big dawgs are much more capable of knowing when to counter and when not to worry about it.
> 
> The TDF is the "Best" not because of the media. The media has nothing to do with it. The Media are there, because the best riders and the best teams in the world are all in the same place at the same time.
> 
> ...


Clearly not every big team brings their A game to the Tour, many Italian teams take that to the Giro, and same for many Spanish teams and the Vuelta. So, why is the Tour more interesting because of how it is ridden? To me the parody that often exists in the Giro and Vuelta makes for exciting stages (excepting the sprinters stages which are mostly boring whatever race they occur in and the Vuelta is the one race which often has crosswinds to make these stages occassionlly interesting). How is it more interesting to watch a "controlled" race where everyone just follows Postal to the final climb and then gets slapped around by Armstrong? The best in recent years was the one that looked like Lance might lose because there was parody and riders took chances. I don't know what you're referring to about the steepness of the climbs in the Vuelta?


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Bianchigirl said:


> Indurain, Hinault, Merckx and Anquetil would be fascinated to hear that the Giro - a race that each of them won, racing against opposition that they would face and beat again in 2 months time, was a race for 'also rans'.



And they would agree. But those were different times. What are the 4 of them known for? The TDF. That about sums it up


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Clearly not every big team brings their A game to the Tour, many Italian teams take that to the Giro, and same for many Spanish teams and the Vuelta. So, why is the Tour more interesting because of how it is ridden? To me the parody that often exists in the Giro and Vuelta makes for exciting stages (excepting the sprinters stages which are mostly boring whatever race they occur in and the Vuelta is the one race which often has crosswinds to make these stages occassionlly interesting). How is it more interesting to watch a "controlled" race where everyone just follows Postal to the final climb and then gets slapped around by Armstrong? The best in recent years was the one that looked like Lance might lose because there was parody and riders took chances. I don't know what you're referring to about the steepness of the climbs in the Vuelta?


Actually I think I made my point the wrong way. I love the Vuelta and The Giro, you're right, the cross winds are so fun to watch, and the way those Italians attack the hell out of each other all the way up the climbs, and the mammoth sprints. BUT…. The Tour is the A of the A teams. The Giro winners of late would have never been on the podium in Paris. Nor would the Vuelta winners. 

So when I say the best, it’s the best of the best. It’s the best riders, the best teams and it is the one goal they all share for the year. Tell me Heras would not trade a Vuelta win for a Tour win. Or Gibo.... A Giro win for a Tour win. Of course they would. It is bigger than life, and bigger than racing. Armstrong is the king of the hill in all the Peloton. He is the most watched racer in the world. And the guy is from a hated country, from a hated State, and he races all year for one race. That’s it. Petacchi or Cunego don't have Near that fan fare. 

Euro Sport, Lequip, Cyclingnews. All the major news outlets overseas have way more coverage of Lance than they do Heras, or Cunego. YEAR ROUND 

So the point is, it’s not what is fun to watch or what we prefer, it’s about the riders and the teams and the sponsors. And they say the TDF is the best, so that's what they get.


----------



## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

*Hey, that's what I look like too*



Einstruzende said:


> That's the kind of "fat" I want to be
> .


Here's me in full kit training for our local TT


----------



## mgp (Feb 3, 2004)

Well put, JDawg. True, watching the Giro and the Vuelta is a bunch of fun. Much in the same way watching college sports is fun. Entertaining, but a completely different caliber of athlete who is competing.

I think that is why so many of us wish Discovery and Lance would race the Giro this year. Could you imagine the absolute carnage they would inflict against the "favorites"? It would be shades of Heras, Mayo, etc... in last year's Tour as they get dropped in the climbs after getting worn down from the crushing pace set in the previous 100k's.


----------



## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Well, actually, Merckx and Hinault are known for racing year round and succeeding in both Classics and Grand Tours (11 and 10 respectively), Anquetil is known for being the first man to win all 3 Grand Tours and his incredible Dauphine/Bordeaux-Paris double, Indurain is known for completing the Double twice running, and we haven't even mentioned Coppi and Bartoli...

But for those who only follow Armstrong and the Tour then I suppose winning the Tour is all they're known for.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

mgp said:


> Well put, JDawg. True, watching the Giro and the Vuelta is a bunch of fun. Much in the same way watching college sports is fun. Entertaining, but a completely different caliber of athlete who is competing.
> 
> I think that is why so many of us wish Discovery and Lance would race the Giro this year. Could you imagine the absolute carnage they would inflict against the "favorites"? It would be shades of Heras, Mayo, etc... in last year's Tour as they get dropped in the climbs after getting worn down from the crushing pace set in the previous 100k's.


Paleeze...
If the Tour is so much harder why don't all those barely top-10ers just go and take an easy picking at the Giro or Vuelta? 
Different riders peak for different races, I'm confident that largely the protagonists in any Grand Tour would be the same if they were peaking for whichever GT we're talking about. Show me that the pace in the final 100k of a Tour mountain stage is faster than in a Vuelta or Giro mountain stage. Mayo was sick with Mono by Tour time last year and probably past his peak anyway, his performance had nothing to do with the difficulty of the Tour itself. Excepting Armstrong and Ullrich (pre-2004), the GC contenders at the Tour are pretty much on par with the GC contenders at any other Grand Tour.


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Paleeze...
> If the Tour is so much harder why don't all those barely top-10ers just go and take an easy picking at the Giro or Vuelta?
> Different riders peak for different races, I'm confident that largely the protagonists in any Grand Tour would be the same if they were peaking for whichever GT we're talking about. Show me that the pace in the final 100k of a Tour mountain stage is faster than in a Vuelta or Giro mountain stage. Mayo was sick with Mono by Tour time last year and probably past his peak anyway, his performance had nothing to do with the difficulty of the Tour itself. Excepting Armstrong and Ullrich (pre-2004), the GC contenders at the Tour are pretty much on par with the GC contenders at any other Grand Tour.


Not a chance Dwayne. All you have to do is look at Heras. Heras has won the Vueltas Three times after riding in the Tour. The big dawgs at the Tour dont ride they Giro because the other GC riders aren't. I know I know, the double. It's just not there any more. those guys are not going to risk the Tour over riding in the Giro. At least not right now. Watch Cunego this year. I dont think he will be anywhere close in the Tour.

The Vuelta is different. Unfortunately it has taken some lumps over the years, and coming after the Tour has hurt it badly. The GC guys are wasted and all they want to do it go home. The only GC guys that go and race it are the Spanish guys.

In the end, in the last decade, things have changed. Gibo would NEVER NEVER NEVER have competed with Lance. Look at the winners lately. Not a single one of them can Time trial. do you honestly think a non time trialist would be able to win the Tour? Not a chance in hell.

10 years ago, it was different.


----------



## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

1I0 years ago the TdF was being won by Indurain who was so effective because he could, um, time trial. Oh, and win the Double. But then so did Pantani, the last man to win the TdF before Armstrong. So what has made the big difference in the last 10 years? You can talk about specialisation, but both Indurain and Pantani were GT specialists - Indurain rode all 3 GTs in his day, and that was when the Vuelta was the first GT in the calendar - rather than simply _Tour de France_ specialists. All this talk of not being able to win more than one Tour because of specialisation has only been current since Armstrong started winning the Tour, and I can only assume it has become accepted wisdom because _Armstrong_ isn't capable of riding 2 Tours/doesn't want to/whatever.


----------



## wyomingclimber (Feb 26, 2004)

*Didn't Lance once say...*

something to the effect of "The thing I love about the Giro is that they ride so slow, I can get in my entire training day and still catch the end on TV."?

The idea here is that LA sweats people like Isidro Nozal and Heras? That if instead of doing the Tour he did the Giro, he wouldn't be able to win, 'cause it would be too hard for him?

Honestly, I like watching the Giro better than the tour because of the chaos that is brought about by being a, ahem, lesser race. I mean that one where the cops were chasing riders across Europe and Casagrande punched a guy and knocked him off his bike. Now THAT was a race.


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

wyomingclimber said:


> something to the effect of "The thing I love about the Giro is that they ride so slow, I can get in my entire training day and still catch the end on TV."?


Maybe that's "out of context", but it sounds like the height of arrogance. 

Could you guess he's from TX?


----------



## wyomingclimber (Feb 26, 2004)

*Slightly out of context...*

As I recall, it wasn't a slam on the Giro or the riders in general, it was a reply to the repeated verbal attacks from Simoni who seemed to be of the opinion that Armstrong only won the TdF climbs because he wasn't riding.


----------



## AJS (Aug 7, 2003)

wyomingclimber said:


> As I recall, it wasn't a slam on the Giro or the riders in general, it was a reply to the repeated verbal attacks from Simoni who seemed to be of the opinion that Armstrong only won the TdF climbs because he wasn't riding.


Capisce.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

The two best GT riders of the last 5 years or so no doubt peak for the Tour, Armstrong & Ullrich, once you get past those two the top-10 riders at the Tour are pretty much on par with the top-10 guys at the Giro or Vuelta. I think on on-form Armstrong or Ullrich would win any GT they entered, but after those guys who else?

You say the double is no longer reasonable, and then use Simoni as an example of how the tour is harder AFTER he's already peaked for the Giro in the same year. Or Heras who was working for Lance most years or injured/sick at the Tour when he went on to win the Vuelta as an example of how the Tour is harder? How about Azevedo? Did he ever finish higher than fifth at Vuelta (maybe a 4th)? I know he as a decent top-10er but he certainly did as well last year riding for Lance in the Tour as he's ever done at the Vuelta, does that prove the Vuelta is harder?

Looking over the last couple of years excepting Lance/Ullrich which guys in the top-10 at the Tour do you think would handily win a Giro or Vuelta if they peaked for it?

And I disagree with you about the double. I think Lance could have probably have done it if he had the ambission. Don't assume just because he never tried that somehow it's become an impossiblity.

Last year's Top-10 at the Tour:
Lance Armstrong (Usa-Usp)
Andreas Klöden (Ger-Tmo)
Ivan Basso (Ita-Csc)
Jan Ullrich (Ger-Tmo)
José Azevedo (Por-Usp)
Francisco Mancebo Pérez (Spa-Ibb)
Georg Totschnig (Aut-Gst)
Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa-Csc)
Levi Leipheimer (Usa-Rab)
Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa-Pho) 

Several of whom; Azevedo, Mancebo, Sastre, Leipheimer, Pereiro have contested other GTs in earnest and finished in comparable spots. Ullrich and Armstrong may be a good notch above the rest when in peak form, but after that I think it's a pretty level playing field amongst the likely contenders in any of the Grand Tours. And I don't think there is any reason a "climber" couldn't win the Tour if he could adequately defend himself in the TT. You forget that typically not only is Armstrong the best TTist at the Tour, he is also the best climber  Anybody who wins a GT does both well, even if they're known as a specialist in one vs. the other.


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> The two best GT riders of the last 5 years or so no doubt peak for the Tour, Armstrong & Ullrich, once you get past those two the top-10 riders at the Tour are pretty much on par with the top-10 guys at the Giro or Vuelta. I think on on-form Armstrong or Ullrich would win any GT they entered, but after those guys who else?
> 
> You say the double is no longer reasonable, and then use Simoni as an example of how the tour is harder AFTER he's already peaked for the Giro in the same year. Or Heras who was working for Lance most years or injured/sick at the Tour when he went on to win the Vuelta as an example of how the Tour is harder? How about Azevedo? Did he ever finish higher than fifth at Vuelta (maybe a 4th)? I know he as a decent top-10er but he certainly did as well last year riding for Lance in the Tour as he's ever done at the Vuelta, does that prove the Vuelta is harder?
> 
> ...



Very good post and quite convincing. I am so gald you did not say Lance was the downfall of cycling. That gets old. 

I agree, I think Lance could have gotten the Double. I do not however, think Jan could have with Lance around. That being said. look at the list you threw up there. Which ones actually stood a chance at winning?


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Jdawg said:


> Which ones actually stood a chance at winning?


Not really any of them, that's why I find the arguement that the Tour is "so much harder because better racers are there" to hold no water. Excepting Armstrong/Ullrich none of those guys who finished in the top-10 would have been considered a favorite for any Grand Tour they entered. They would have been considered probable top-10's, maybe on the podium if everything went just their way, certainly surprise winners if it came out that way. Basso seems to have elevated himself to the role of likely Grand Tour winner with his performance over the last couple of years at the Tour, but he's been rather spotty so far this year and with the Giro around the corner, has he even elevated himself to that level?


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Not really any of them, that's why I find the arguement that the Tour is "so much harder because better racers are there" to hold no water. Excepting Armstrong/Ullrich none of those guys who finished in the top-10 would have been considered a favorite for any Grand Tour they entered. They would have been considered probable top-10's, maybe on the podium if everything went just their way, certainly surprise winners if it came out that way. Basso seems to have elevated himself to the role of likely Grand Tour winner with his performance over the last couple of years at the Tour, but he's been rather spotty so far this year and with the Giro around the corner, has he even elevated himself to that level?


I can definitely see your point but lets bring this back up again AFTER Cunego goes for the Tour. I honeslty think he is juiced to the max and wont win the Giro anyway, but it will be interesting. He is the first one, maybe Basso that I think could give a run for the money. He just needs to learn to TT first.


----------



## spox (May 10, 2002)

Cunego is so pure climber. He was 3 minutes down on TT in Giro last year. It's a difference that he ain't gonna catch up in one season, maybe never. How he could handle TT's in TdF. He would be bye bye after first individual TT for shure. Hats off for him as a climber, but climber he will be. Giro is so different and let it be. It's good that climbers have their own riot..Tdf is for overall guys.

Popo, he can TT and climb? Is he next Lance for Disco? Or must it be american? Danielson...naah...Why they gave Floyd away, best american to come now that lost twin is sacked.

Back to Kaiser 2nd aka Kloden. He showed in last year TdF great fysical and mental ability in stage 19, as he had already helped Ullrich and had one some fighting for himself too and still managed to ride so hard after almost three weeks. Much more potential contender than basso and co.










Not that bulky and still superfast on flats > killer


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*Parcours anyone?????*



Dwayne Barry said:


> Not really any of them, that's why I find the arguement that the Tour is "so much harder because better racers are there" to hold no water. Excepting Armstrong/Ullrich none of those guys who finished in the top-10 would have been considered a favorite for any Grand Tour they entered. They would have been considered probable top-10's, maybe on the podium if everything went just their way, certainly surprise winners if it came out that way. Basso seems to have elevated himself to the role of likely Grand Tour winner with his performance over the last couple of years at the Tour, but he's been rather spotty so far this year and with the Giro around the corner, has he even elevated himself to that level?


Does anyone know how the TDF parcours have developed in relation to the other GT's? Specifically, it seems, that the Vuelta and Giro parcours have been more challenging over the last 15 years than say the 70'sor late 80's?

The point is that as ALL of the parcours in ALL of the GT's increased in difficulty specialization had to be the deal. This does NOT detract from any champions and I am just curious.

Otherwise, doesnt it seem convenient that we are seeing fewer and fewer folks doing the double etc etc


----------



## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

ttug said:


> Does anyone know how the TDF parcours have developed in relation to the other GT's? Specifically, it seems, that the Vuelta and Giro parcours have been more challenging over the last 15 years than say the 70'sor late 80's?
> 
> The point is that as ALL of the parcours in ALL of the GT's increased in difficulty specialization had to be the deal.


When Moser was riding, the Giro course was tailored for him. TTs were much more important. In the early 90s, with the rise of Chiappucci and then other Italian climbers, the Giro has been turned into a climbers' race.

The Tour on the other hand, has been a balance between time trialing and climbing. There is traditionally a long TT that will weed out most pure climbers. Back in the day, the gaps on climbing stages were large enough that a climber could overcome the TTing, but with the gaps of today that isn't going to happen.

This is why a rider such as Simoni is never going to win the Tour. Maybe if Cunego developed into a good time trialist he could, but given his small stature I don't think it is likely. 

This is also why it's possible Popovych will be a Tour contender; he can TT and he can climb well enough to limit losses.

Both the Vuelta and the Giro select for good (small) climbers, who have a very difficult time with a 60K time trial.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

spox said:


> Cunego is so pure climber.
> 
> Back to Kaiser 2nd aka Kloden. He showed in last year TdF great fysical and mental ability in stage 19, as he had already helped Ullrich and had one some fighting for himself too and still managed to ride so hard after almost three weeks. Much more potential contender than basso and co.


I agree Cunego does seem to be pure climber so far, but most of the other pure climbers that have won Grand Tours like Simoni, Pantani, Heras have been able to rider fairly decent TTs when it was necessary.

Based on Kloden's 2004 TdF he's more of a potential contender, based on the rest of his career he's as likely to be AWOL this year as he is to finish on the podium again. And really there are only two relevant data points for Basso, a 7th in 2003 and then a 3rd last year. There's been any number of riders to make a progression like that and then never win a Grand Tour. Basso at least has youth on his side, Kloden not so much.


----------



## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

according to Basso, it's just 'not normal' to only ride one GT in a season:

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=1094


----------



## Jdawg (Dec 6, 2004)

Bianchigirl said:


> according to Basso, it's just 'not normal' to only ride one GT in a season:
> 
> http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=1094


That is AWESOME!!!! I love this kid. He has HUGE..... uhhem. Anyway, I realy want him to SMOKE Cunego in the Giro. And I will love to see him ride the Tour. But I think if we see the Caliber of rider that Cunego and Basso are, struggle deeply in the climbs of the Tour after riding the Giro, we will have a lot of answers. That being said, I dont think Basso will be even close to where he was last year in the Tour even without riding the Giro.


----------

