# Giant TCR Forks have no crown race?



## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

I heard a noise in the front end yesterday so I pulled it apart today. 

I noticed the Fork had no metal crown race. It's a CF-33 FSA 1 1/8" to 1 !/4" headset. 
The headset specs with the frameset show a crown race....so I call the shop. They say that model doesn't come with a crown race. The lower bearing sits on the tapered carbon steerer tube. They said the headset instructions are generic for all Giant frames and don't apply to the new TCR. 

Don't I feel like an idiot. You guys know of other frames that are crown race-less?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm not sure what you mean by race. Races are what the balls contact. In a cartridge bearing, two races and the balls are one unit. So if your headset has two cartridge bearings, it's got the required 4 races. If it's got loose balls, then it should have four separate races, one on each end of the head tube, one on the fork crown, and one under the stem/spacers at the top. Often, headsets with cartridge bearings also have cups that are pressed into the head tube. The steering system can be designed so that cartridge bearings fit directly into the head tube eliminating the cups.

No matter, the headset should not be generating any noise.


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

looigi said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by race. Races are what the balls contact. In a cartridge bearing, two races and the balls are one unit. So if your headset has two cartridge bearings, it's got the required 4 races. If it's got loose balls, then it should have four separate races, one on each end of the head tube, one on the fork crown, and one under the stem/spacers at the top. Often, headsets with cartridge bearings also have cups that are pressed into the head tube. The steering system can be designed so that cartridge bearings fit directly into the head tube eliminating the cups.
> 
> No matter, the headset should not be generating any noise.


Even if it isn't actually touching the bearing because of cartridge, the thing you press onto the steerer tube is still called a "race", just as the other parts didn't stop being "cups" when cartridge headsets came along.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

rx-79g said:


> Even if it isn't actually touching the bearing because of cartridge, the thing you press onto the steerer tube is still called a "race", just as the other parts didn't stop being "cups" when cartridge headsets came along.


No. In this case, nothing gets "pressed onto the steerer tube". The only race there is is inside the cartridge.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

LOOK came out with an integrated bearing race years ago.....It's nothing to worry about if the fork is designed that way


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

wim said:


> No. In this case, nothing gets "pressed onto the steerer tube". The only race there is is inside the cartridge.


Correct. We are discussing what is missing from his fork. It's a race. I wasn't saying he should have one, just the part being discussed is called a race whether it is used with cartridge or not.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Twisting words.*



rx-79g said:


> It's a race. I wasn't saying he should have one, just the part being discussed is called a race whether it is used with cartridge or not.


It's not a question of a race being "used with a cartridge or not". The race is what the bearing balls race around on. It's inside the cartridge. All cartridge rolling element bearings have a race. But what the cartridge sits on is a seat, not a race. Enough of this, got to hit the rack.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

In the world I come from, a bearing race is the thing the balls ride on, or race around, if you will. If the balls aren't in contact with it and run in it, in my book, it aint a race. It may be a cup, spacer, washer, or something else, but not a race. Perhaps cycling has adopted some non-standard terminology for some reason?

(WIM and I posted simultaneously like we were channeling each other's thoughts)


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## rx-79g (Sep 14, 2010)

looigi said:


> In the world I come from, a bearing race is the thing the balls ride on, or race around, if you will. If the balls aren't in contact with it and run in it, in my book, it aint a race. It may be a cup, spacer, washer, or something else, but not a race. Perhaps cycling has adopted some non-standard terminology for some reason?
> 
> (WIM and I posted simultaneously like we were channeling each other's thoughts)


Cane Creek calls it a crown race. Chris King made up the term "baseplate" because they are as concerned with racial purity as you guys. But if you are assembling a headset with a helper, calling the part that goes on the fork crown the "crown race" is going to get you the right part, while calling it a cup (it isn't cup like at all) or a spacer will not.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

wim said:


> It's not a question of a race being "used with a cartridge or not". The race is what the bearing balls race around on. It's inside the cartridge. All cartridge rolling element bearings have a race. But what the cartridge sits on is a seat, not a race. Enough of this, got to hit the rack.


but the part that gets pressed onto the fork is still called a 'crown race' even if the balls don't touch it. everyone still calls them that. 

but...more and more (especially tapered) steerer tubes don't use the 'thing' that gets pressed onto the fork.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> but the part that gets pressed onto the fork is still called a 'crown race' even if the balls don't touch it. everyone still calls them that.
> 
> but...more and more (especially tapered) steerer tubes don't use the 'thing' that gets pressed onto the fork.


This is the correct answer, the TCR 1-1/4" lower tapered steerer does not have a plate, race, cup, etc press fit on it...


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

wim said:


> It's not a question of a race being "used with a cartridge or not". The race is what the bearing balls race around on. It's inside the cartridge. All cartridge rolling element bearings have a race. But *what the cartridge sits on is a seat, not a race*. Enough of this, got to hit the rack.


I can't comment on the Giant's set up, but FWIW Specialized uses cartridge bearings and what you call a seat they call a race (#6 in the attached diagram).
http://cdn.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/pdf/manuals/09_Carbon_Road_Frame_1_Instructions.pdf


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> but the part that gets pressed onto the fork is still called a 'crown race' even if the balls don't touch it. everyone still calls them that.


That's because the bicycle "industry" is basically peopled by tinkerers who don't really know or care to learn standard engineering terminology. Not that there's anything wrong with that—as long as they don't build something like commercial airplanes, automobiles or bridges.


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## JacksonDodge (Mar 26, 2006)

looigi said:


> In the world I come from, a bearing race is the thing the balls ride on, or race around, if you will. If the balls aren't in contact with it and run in it, in my book, it aint a race. It may be a cup, spacer, washer, or something else, but not a race. Perhaps cycling has adopted some non-standard terminology for some reason?



It's a leftover term from a time when all headsets were of the loose ball variety. 

The inner race was pressed onto the steerer tube; hence crown race.


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

I should clarify my post: 

1) My Giant TCR Advanced FRAME has 2 metal cups glued in. One at the top of the head tube and one at the bottom

2) I have two sealed bearing cartridges. One for the top and bottom that pop into the head tube of the fame. 

3) This is where I was confused. The fork is all carbon. There is no metal on it. The fork inserts into the headtube and the lower cartridge bearing assembly rests against the angled carbon fiber at the bottom of the steerer tube of the fork. 
There is NO metal Crown Race ring pressed onto the bottom of the carbon fork. Usually wouldn't you see a metal race (ring) pressed on to the fork?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

skygodmatt said:


> I should clarify my post:
> 
> 1) My Giant TCR Advanced FRAME has 2 metal cups glued in. One at the top of the head tube and one at the bottom
> 
> ...


Cxwrench, Mr. Scary and your shop already addressed that, so why are you still confused? 

Yes, _some_ forks have crown races pressed on, but others (the Trek Madone and some LOOK's come to mind) have CF 'races' (or 'seats', as wim prefers) molded/ built into the fork. From your description, your TCR is similar in design.

RE: your initial post, when you hear a noise coming from the front end, it doesn't _necessarily_ mean you need to disassemble it. First, try to pin down the source and go from there. It's possible that simply preloading the bearings would've quelled it.


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## skygodmatt (May 24, 2005)

The pre-load in fact was the culprit. There was not enough. 

I wanted to take it off and look and everything with a light and repack just to be on the safe side. 
I just wasn't used to seeing no metal ring at the base of the steerer tube. Do they do this to save weight? Or do they just deem it un-necessary? 

One thing I did notice though--the integrated headsets always seem to have more slop than the ones with a good Chris King headset. The cartridge bearing to head tube cup doesn't seem to fit as tight. Noticed this on a few frames now. So, I did a search and found Chris King doesn't like internal headsets. Now I know why. I think his design is bomber.


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