# TdF'16 Stage12 Jul14 Discussion Thread. Spoilers.



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

TdF'16 Stage12 Jul14 Discussion Thread. Spoilers.

This is the pinnacle stage of this week. 115 miles, with a mountaintop finish at Widow-Maker Mont Ventoux.

The stage is flat until about 70 miles, when the riders will have the modest challenge of a twin-peak, Cote de Gordes then Col de Trois Termes, altogether an altitude gain of about 500 meters, then a descent almost back to baseline altitude.

They ride for a pleasant 10 miles, then head straight up Ventoux - a 15 mile excursion with about 1,700 meters of altitude gain.

Once Stage 11 concludes, we should have some good discussion about who is still in contention, and how The Borg might be deposed.

I will try to post a screen-grab of the final ascent.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*Here is pic of final ascent of Ventoux...*

Here is pic of final ascent of Ventoux. They will be coming up the route 974 from the lower right, up to just about where the label is, at the pinnacle. It is not a total switchback mess like Alp D'Huez. More of a long grind...


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Today there are 100km/hr winds on Ventoux. ASO is discussing ending 12 at the tree line due to dangerous winds. Will be decided tomorrow.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Sagan again.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*real-time wind viewer...*



Marc said:


> Today there are 100km/hr winds on Ventoux. ASO is discussing ending 12 at the tree line due to dangerous winds. Will be decided tomorrow.


This website is too general to see Ventoux. Somewhere, recently, I saw a similar website that could really get local...

https://earth.nullschool.net/


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Oh- almost forgot...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT1gmKUoqbY


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

PJay said:


> This website is too general to see Ventoux. Somewhere, recently, I saw a similar website that could really get local...
> 
> https://earth.nullschool.net/


it is official, Ventoux this year has been cropped.

The Tour de France has lost its Giant - VeloNews.com


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

blow to Quintana's plans. Now he has to try and leverage only the Alps, losing a major climber's lever. But this year's Tour has plenty of Alps for whomever is strongest.

but heck I dunno, Maybe a shortened Ventoux means less TT time gain advantage for Froome, as Quintana will be fresher than if he had done a massive attack to the top of Ventoux.

Though sadly, I think this might mean Ventoux is a washout for GC attacks. Breakaway win might be in the cards for someone not high on GC. Pinot?


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

With Ventoux being cropped, I'm definitely going with the break winning the stage. Pinot seems as good of an option as anyone, esp since he and Mijka appear to be fighting for the KOM. Unfortunately even if Sagan goes in the break this climb will be too much for him. I can't see any battle for GC on this stage now. Actually I think this may make the TT more important. I'm sure the sprinters are happy about the mountain being cut down. Also I'm guessing they are going to have to recategorize the finish to maybe a Cat2? I can't see it still being an out of cat climb now.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

Stage 12 (with Ventoux' capped):










What a sad looking stage


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

LOL....18 minute gap with 90k to go?


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

sagan, nibali, pinot off the back.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Quintana will never beat Froome because he's too short, he rides a x-small bike with 650cc wheels, so he's got to pedal more revolutions, more work, to keep up with 700cc tire bikes.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Holy crowd encroachment...Froome running down the road on the foot.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

what in the world are they going to do about that


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Holy Freakin' Crap!!!!


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

oh yikers!


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

I have a feeling we are going to see a monster ride from Froome tomorrow. If he can get a good night's sleep despite how furious he seemed to be, then can pull that anger back up for tomorrow, he may pedal the road stripes off of this time trial.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

jd3 said:


> what in the world are they going to do about that


I don't think the ASO knows....the 3km rule does not apply on mountain finishes.


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

It was only a matter of time before the crowd caused major problems. What a scene of Froome running up the road; frigg'n crazy!


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

running with cleats sticking out the bottom of your road bike shoe isn't easy. lol


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## STRANA (Oct 5, 2013)

*fans suck*

The fans along the side of the road are great. The ones on the road need to encounter the same guys in cars trying to run me over on my commute!!!


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

MoonHowl said:


> It was only a matter of time before the crowd caused major problems.


I hope sky sues the fuuucking UCI!!! They knew this was going to happen.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Skewer said:


> running with cleats sticking out the bottom of your road bike shoe isn't easy. lol


And that was a 10% grade mountain. Simply walking up it in sneakers is a workout.

I think Sky uses DA pedals/cleats for reference of walkability


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

ngl said:


> I hope sky sues the fuuucking UCI!!! They knew this was going to happen.


Please not.

Sky, alias Fox News, alias Rupert Murdoch...already has more money than god. In fact they've run afoul of EU regulators for monopolistic business practices.


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## CrankyMinion (May 26, 2014)

That's sad to have all your effort ruined by morons.

They should introduce motorbike with flame thrower and rotating blades, oh and laser attachment madmax style to clear the road ahead.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

When LA had his famous crash at least the others neutralized the race until he was back.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Almost comical seeing Froome try to ride that neutral bike, almost looked as if his Dad released him for the first time. 
I've always wondered about those neutral bikes, they definitely don't have neutral pedals. I just hope he rides strong tomorrow but not strong enough to take back the jersey then pounce on the next mtn stage, maybe Morzine.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> When LA had his famous crash at least the others neutralized the race until he was back.


Except in this instance with the peloton blown apart on the mountain (due in no small part due to Froome's own attacks), there really was no way to neutralize it.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Marc said:


> Except in this instance with the peloton blown apart on the mountain (due in no small part due to Froome's own attacks), there really was no way to neutralize it.


And it was close to the end. Can't really neutralize it in the last kilometer.

Sucks for Froome. But he's still less than a minute off the lead. He so far has appeared the strongest, and there are plenty of stages left to make it back up to the top.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

Why didn't Froome's teammate, who passed him while Froome was running, give up his bike?


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

Marc said:


> Please not.
> 
> Sky, alias Fox News, alias Rupert Murdoch...already has more money than god. In fact they've run afoul of EU regulators for monopolistic business practices.


Nice quote, however meaningless.

And you don't think it might happen to a low-budget team tomorrow? Then what?


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

havent seen it, but this sounds hilarious. was it like american flyers?

chances are they will garnt the stage win, but might give finishers from teh crash back the same time. 

too bad they cant give everyone the same time but retroactively institute time bonuses...


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

apparently nullified...froome still in yellow...

*buy nullified, i mean they did something...


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Well even though you could guess they were going to "fix" things, that was definitely not boring to watch...


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

Froome back in yellow as he should be. However, it might have made for more exciting finish to the Tour if had lost the time. He is looking unbeatable at this point. We will see...


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

One issue is that the organizers did not have the barriers that they should have. This happened within 1km of the finish. Maybe it was due to the finish change, but they should have had barriers up for the final 2 or 3kms of the race, especially to deal with the increased concentration of fans. All those fans that were camping and waiting on those last 6km came down to the lower finish and it was just too much. It was ridiculous to watch, but I'm glad they sorted it all out.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

burgrat said:


> One issue is that the organizers did not have the barriers that they should have. This happened within 1km of the finish. Maybe it was due to the finish change, but they should have had barriers up for the final 2 or 3kms of the race, especially to deal with the increased concentration of fans. All those fans that were camping and waiting on those last 6km came down to the lower finish and it was just too much. It was ridiculous to watch, but I'm glad they sorted it all out.


Granted I've never had the pleasure of seeing a TdF mountain finish....but I imagine that closed off mountain road becomes a tent/RV city 2 days before minimum. That they were able to relocate the finish (and all its backline) further down given that horde is pretty impressive.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Read elsewhere people saying it's a DQ- able offense to run without carrying your bike with you. So are other teams going to push for this rule to be applied to get their riders reinstated back to the top of the pecking order? 

(I'm not saying I agree they should. But if I was the manager of a competing team that had profited from Froome's misfortune...)


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

Justice prevails



> FROOME AND PORTE WITH THE SAME TIME AS MOLLEMA
> Decision by the commissaires panel: Chris Froome and Richie Porte have been given the same time as Bauke Mollema due to the incident in the finale. Froome retains the yellow jersey.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

So cycling has no rules for this type of ish? Just a group of guys sitting around asking each other: "so what's your thoughts on this"?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Seriously...


****ING SERIOUSLY...

wtf was that....?

This tour...


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## MoonHowl (Oct 5, 2008)

dnice said:


> So cycling has no rules for this type of ish? Just a group of guys sitting around asking each other: "so what's your thoughts on this"?



They were sitting around drinking a few glasses of wine while one guy word searched the PDF of the rules.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

You cannot have "rules" to cover every possible situation.

No different than F1 where stewards will rule on "racing incidents".


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

My phone wants to change "Froome" to "drop me"

Quintana going on the attack!


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

dnice said:


> So cycling has no rules for this type of ish? Just a group of guys sitting around asking each other: "so what's your thoughts on this"?


You didn't seem to have a problem with it when the barrier fell on Yates a couple of stages ago.

I think the right call was made.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

ngl said:


> You didn't seem to have a problem with it when the barrier fell on Yates a couple of stages ago.
> 
> I think the right call was made.


huh? You're quoting the wrong person..I have never commented on Yates. 

In any event, if you think there should be some order to this sport, by all means do share your opinion with us.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

bikerjulio said:


> You cannot have "rules" to cover every possible situation.
> 
> No different than F1 where stewards will rule on "racing incidents".


And look what happens when you do.

Think about the NFL...every time something is remotely questionable they take 10 minutes to video review the call and look up in detail the verse and passages in lore to find what applies....ESPN and Fox and so on even go so far as to have "correspondents" who solely get called in due to their memorising the volumes-thick rule book. Then they have to discuss what qualifies as "contact" or "control of the ball" or "incontrovertible video evidence".

You end up with *Law and Order: Sporting Law Unit *rather than a race or competition.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> You cannot have "rules" to cover every possible situation.
> 
> No different than F1 where stewards will rule on "racing incidents".


Yes
I was pleasantly surprised to see the commissaires got it right this time.

It was really another moto F up. And organizers failed to put barriers in final km on a queen stage - never seen that happen, ever. Inevitable consequences.

Hope Froome puts 2 min on Quintana tomorrow for him not stopping today. Movistar showed they are less honorable here.

Also, there was the Gerrans crash earlier in the stage which took down one of the Sky riders right at the front of the yellow jersey gruppeto. Froome actually went back to help his downed teammate, and Cancellara had to argue and gesticulate with Movistar to agree to the neutralization.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

bikerjulio said:


> View attachment 315128


Bad ass! He's not even drafting.


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## hanyu (Oct 21, 2005)

Froome should take up cyclocross in the off season. Needs to learn how to run with the bike on the shoulder.


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## 4Crawler (Jul 13, 2011)

I'll imagine Juan Antonio Flecha is a bit puzzled by this ruling. He was pretty adamant in the Eurosport post race show that in his incident in 2011, nothing was done after he and Hoogerland got knocked off the road by a car swerving to miss a pole on the other side of the road, aside from sharing the combativity award. Granted they weren't in GC contention.


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## Moose5077 (Jul 10, 2016)

just came home for lunch and seen the highlights, what a damn mess! cant believe they let all of that happen at an event like this


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Did the weather turn out to be as big a deal as they envisioned? In other words, was it justified to truncate the stage?

Shortening a stage because of predicted wind seems odd and unprecedented to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

natedg200202 said:


> Did the weather turn out to be as big a deal as they envisioned? In other words, was it justified to truncate the stage?
> 
> Shortening a stage because of predicted wind seems odd and unprecedented to me.
> 
> ...


given that all fireworks have been cancelled along the coast I can imagine the wind at 2km. 
Races have been cancelled due to wind in the past.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

dnice said:


> huh? You're quoting the wrong person..I have never commented on Yates.
> 
> In any event, if you think there should be some order to this sport, by all means do share your opinion with us.


I didn't quote anyone. I'm saying no one had any problem with Adam Yates getting the same time with the group when the banner fell on him (and I agree with the call), so why the issue with spectator interference with Froome? Yates has no problem with it.

It comes down to fair play.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

seeing froome pedal that neutral bike is hilarious. The seat looks too low. 

seeing froome run, he's all skin and bones. How can he even move his body, he's got no muscles. he's not human, a cyborg. lol


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

The riders need to go "Bernard Hinault" on all the short bus riding people in the road.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Skewer said:


> seeing froome pedal that neutral bike is hilarious. The seat looks too low.
> 
> seeing froome run, he's all skin and bones. How can he even move his body, he's got no muscles. he's not human, a cyborg. lol


Froome wanted a bike-ANY bike....the first most easily available bike on the Mavic car roof was a Large and Froome is a freak who needs/rides an XL (unlike most climbers who are 4' nothing tall)...but he just wanted a bike long enough for his team car to catch up.

More details of Froome crash from Mavic neutral service - VeloNews.com


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

natedg200202 said:


> Did the weather turn out to be as big a deal as they envisioned? In other words, was it justified to truncate the stage?
> 
> Shortening a stage because of predicted wind seems odd and unprecedented to me.


Not that I'm aware of no. I was looking intently today to see any word or some flags or something... but nothing. Seems like the wind was not present today. 

ASO ****ed up this stage big time.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> Not that I'm aware of no. I was looking intently today to see any word or some flags or something... but nothing. Seems like the wind was not present today.
> 
> ASO ****ed up this stage big time.


Not really....the race was down further on the mountain down in the foliage....on the top the winds were gusting 30MPH+ with no wind blocks at all.

Eurosport even sent Greg Lemond to the summit during the race (they showed it during pre-race Tour de France Extra). He was leaning at a 45* angle into the wind and not falling over.


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## Chonut (Mar 29, 2005)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Also, there was the Gerrans crash earlier in the stage which took down one of the Sky riders right at the front of the yellow jersey gruppeto. Froome actually went back to help his downed teammate, and Cancellara had to argue and gesticulate with Movistar to agree to the neutralization.


But Froome didn't crash when Gerrans went down, Froome made the choice to stop to support his teammates. The other GC competitors have no obligation to stop for the Yellow Jersey's TEAMMATES. That Froome stopped is a nice gesture but a mistake that his rivals failed to capitalize on. Velonews has a much better analysis.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

threebikes said:


> The riders need to go "Bernard Hinault" on all the short bus riding people in the road.


If Froome was not behind the moto, he would have. And would have relished it even with the $2000 euro penalty.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

It was all fixed. I think Froome just wanted his epic outside-the-box moment to rival Lance...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

natedg200202 said:


> Did the weather turn out to be as big a deal as they envisioned? In other words, was it justified to truncate the stage?
> 
> Shortening a stage because of predicted wind seems odd and unprecedented to me.
> 
> ...


This is the level of wind reported earlier in the day at the top.

Len

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPwAIo0fseM


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Skewer said:


> seeing froome pedal that neutral bike is hilarious. The seat looks too low.
> 
> seeing froome run, he's all skin and bones. How can he even move his body, he's got no muscles. he's not human, a cyborg. lol


I think that he had different cleats that were not compatible with the Mavic bike setup, but I'm not sure. He could have easily ridden that size bike the remaining 800m or so, but it didn't look like he could engage the pedals. His teammate rode by him later too without stopping and giving him his bike. I think everyone was just clueless to what was happening. 
No matter how funny Froome looked running, he did a pretty good job running in his cycling shoes. I would have been flopping around like a fish.
Crazy day!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

burgrat said:


> I think that he had different cleats that were not compatible with the Mavic bike setup, but I'm not sure. He could have easily ridden that size bike the remaining 800m or so, but it didn't look like he could engage the pedals. His teammate rode by him later too without stopping and giving him his bike. I think everyone was just clueless to what was happening.
> No matter how funny Froome looked running, he did a pretty good job running in his cycling shoes. I would have been flopping around like a fish.
> Crazy day!


Sky runs Dura-Ace pedals and cleats, while the neutral bike easiest gotten had Mavic pedals. Further he just wanted the first bike they could get...which was an L, while Froom unlike most climbers rides an XL.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Almost comical seeing Froome try to ride that neutral bike, almost looked as if his Dad released him for the first time.
> I've always wondered about those neutral bikes, they definitely don't have neutral pedals. I just hope he rides strong tomorrow but not strong enough to take back the jersey then pounce on the next mtn stage, maybe Morzine.


I'm thinking platform pedals for neutral bikes from now on.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

They said with platform the foot moves around all over with modern shoes and they don't really work. 

I don't know what the problem is, I see plenty of room on the road:










This is right before the crash happened. Jeesh. Look at them all with their phones and such.


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## grinding (Jul 4, 2016)

Len J said:


> This is the level of wind reported earlier in the day at the top.
> 
> Len
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPwAIo0fseM


That video was published in 2013, definitely not a report from today.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

grinding said:


> That video was published in 2013, definitely not a report from today.


winds were the same speed earlier today, it was meant as an example for those complaining about them shortening the stage


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Yes
> I was pleasantly surprised to see the commissaires got it right this time.
> 
> It was really another moto F up. And organizers failed to put barriers in final km on a queen stage - never seen that happen, ever. Inevitable consequences.
> ...



This one can't or shouldn't be blamed on the moto. 

Those people that had been tailgating those 6 kilometers that were taken out due to the wind were all crowded into the finishing kilometers. The crowds on the mountain top finishes are insane to begin with, but this time they were doubled or tripled in size, just look at the picture MMsRepBike posted up there. More barriers were needed to keep the roads clear, and they needed to go further down the mountain.

The Moto had to stop, either stop or downshift and accelerate into the crowd knocking those drunken knuckleheads out of the way.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Hmmm... Seems like I'm the only one that thinks Froome should have been walked back to where he ran and given a team bike to start riding and given his time at the end fair and square. It's bike racing. Sh*t happens. He snapped. He broke the rules. (Obviously there aren't any actual rules in cycling) What he did warrants a DQ. I think that's a bit much. It is the actual correct solution. If this is a precedent than they need to readjudicate every incident that has happened that wasn't a riders fault. To extrapolate, if you crash over a pile of riders that crash in front of you then the race should be stopped and you should not lose time or position because your crash was not your fault. This decision is complete BS and does more harm than doping to my newfound lack of respect for the sport, the jury and private ownership. I see Tinkoff's issue... Complete WWF.


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## bikerjulio (Jan 19, 2010)

PBL450 said:


> Hmmm... Seems like I'm the only one that thinks Froome should have been walked back to where he ran and given a team bike to start riding and given his time at the end fair and square. It's bike racing. Sh*t happens. He snapped. He broke the rules. (Obviously there aren't any actual rules in cycling) What he did warrants a DQ. I think that's a bit much. It is the actual correct solution. If this is a precedent than they need to readjudicate every incident that has happened that wasn't a riders fault. To extrapolate, if you crash over a pile of riders that crash in front of you then the race should be stopped and you should not lose time or position because your crash was not your fault. This decision is complete BS and does more harm than doping to my newfound lack of respect for the sport, the jury and private ownership. I see Tinkoff's issue... Complete WWF.


perhaps watch another sport? you seem to be clueless about this one.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> perhaps watch another sport? you seem to be clueless about this one.


Yeah, maybe. Since this isn't a sport. It's like a cross between a Vegas magic show and a WWF event. How do you justify ignoring the rules that apply here? I'm not clueless, you are just a fanboy of making rules up as you go. Fine. But that is NOT a credible sport. And it will hurt this quasi-sport. Give Lance back his titles. If the are no rules he shouldn't be penalized. I'm clueless? Show me a rule that says crashes beyond your control can't effect the outcome of a race? Justify how this crash is different than any crash beyond a riders control? You can justify applying rules completely differently in this case than in dozens, maybe hundreds of other crashes every year. I'm clueless? Make an argument instead of your BS snark.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

would this be an appropriate time to reply to the wankers who say 'this Tour is sooo boring..."?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PBL450 said:


> Yeah, maybe. Since this isn't a sport. It's like a cross between a Vegas magic show and a WWF event. How do you justify ignoring the rules that apply here? I'm not clueless, you are just a fanboy of making rules up as you go. Fine. But that is NOT a credible sport. And it will hurt this quasi-sport. Give Lance back his titles. If the are no rules he shouldn't be penalized. I'm clueless? Show me a rule that says crashes beyond your control can't effect the outcome of a race? Justify how this crash is different than any crash beyond a riders control? You can justify applying rules completely differently in this case than in dozens, maybe hundreds of other crashes every year. I'm clueless? Make an argument instead of your BS snark.


And what should they have done about stage 7?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

PBL450 said:


> Yeah, maybe. Since this isn't a sport. It's like a cross between a Vegas magic show and a WWF event. How do you justify ignoring the rules that apply here? I'm not clueless, you are just a fanboy of making rules up as you go. Fine. But that is NOT a credible sport. And it will hurt this quasi-sport. Give Lance back his titles. If the are no rules he shouldn't be penalized. I'm clueless? Show me a rule that says crashes beyond your control can't effect the outcome of a race? Justify how this crash is different than any crash beyond a riders control? You can justify applying rules completely differently in this case than in dozens, maybe hundreds of other crashes every year. I'm clueless? Make an argument instead of your BS snark.


really cute to rant about Lance getting back his titles when he got one of them while not following the course. Yes, I guess that makes you clueless.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

grinding said:


> That video was published in 2013, definitely not a report from today.


This was yesterday. They should have let them ride to the top. LOL!
0:21 is where the fun starts. I'd like to see some of the gear geek weeken warriors with 80mm high zoot wheels up there HAHA!!


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

PBL450 said:


> Yeah, maybe. Since this isn't a sport. It's like a cross between a Vegas magic show and a WWF event. How do you justify ignoring the rules that apply here? I'm not clueless, you are just a fanboy of making rules up as you go. Fine. But that is NOT a credible sport. And it will hurt this quasi-sport. Give Lance back his titles. If the are no rules he shouldn't be penalized. I'm clueless? Show me a rule that says crashes beyond your control can't effect the outcome of a race? Justify how this crash is different than any crash beyond a riders control? You can justify applying rules completely differently in this case than in dozens, maybe hundreds of other crashes every year. I'm clueless? Make an argument instead of your BS snark.


The thing is though, this crash was directly caused by failure of race organizers to control the crowd. It wasn't the fault of the riders. Blame there would be another story.

Froome, Porte, have been raised up in the standings. Quintana and the guys he was with got time that was lost being behind the crash. Froome still in yellow…..


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

The UCI made the right decision. I struggle to think of worse fans than cycling "fans"
If some dick had a giant flag beside me waving it in my face and riders faces I think I'd likely give him a high elbow to the noggin. A large percentage of these guys on the roads are just hooligans.

There has t be a vigilante movement by the good fans to nip this in the bud. It's getting out of hand, especially on the mountain stages.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

PJay said:


> It was all fixed. I think Froome just wanted his epic outside-the-box moment to rival Lance...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU


At least Armstrong had his bike with him.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Anyone notice that Froome looked down at his stem just before the crash?


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

Froome running up Ventoux was quite a sight!


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

Marc said:


> Froome wanted a bike-ANY bike....the first most easily available bike on the Mavic car roof was a Large and Froome is a freak who needs/rides an XL (unlike most climbers who are 4' nothing tall)...but he just wanted a bike long enough for his team car to catch up.
> 
> More details of Froome crash from Mavic neutral service - VeloNews.com


He jogged past hundreds of spectators' bikes. One close enough to his size was probably there with his type of pedals. Bobby Julich borrowed a spectator's wheel to finish one race a while back. Froome was clearly gobsmacked by it all, so I'm glad he kept yellow.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

The need (or is it the propensity?) to suspend or sometimes rewrite the rules on the fly is one more aspect which makes the TdF and bicycle racing so fascinating and absorbing. 

Just for starters, it's crazy and mad to stage an entire season of contests in spaces where the public can become part of the spectacle. It might be mentioned, too, that no other sport to my knowledge sets it up so that opposing teams can sometimes ally with each other to bring down a third team. It's life in the raw with the players dressed in little more than lycra. Okay, thankfully, for the past ten years or so they've been required to wear helmets. And yeah, there ought to be at least a bit more effort to keep the hoi polloi and the participants from mixing it up and becoming road kill.

I can't help but compare it to football (American football, that is). Yeah, in football there's glory, athleticism and courage galore, but there's a break in the action every fifteen seconds or so to allow the players to dust themselves off. Then they all dutifully line up again. There's a veritable encyclopedia of rules that must be followed and a squad of officials on the field that, whistles in mouths, punctiliously keeps track of every infraction. The players wear suits of armor.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

velodog said:


> And what should they have done about stage 7?


Whatever they want... There are no rules. They could just pick the winner. They did that on this stage. This is more like the Tonys than a sport.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

den bakker said:


> really cute to rant about Lance getting back his titles when he got one of them while not following the course. Yes, I guess that makes you clueless.


That logic loop doesn't even make sense... It doesn't matter if you follow the course. It doesn't matter if you break the rules. If the organizers want you to win they can (and obviously will) just pick you. And that's that. You don't even need to ride your bike,


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PBL450 said:


> Whatever they want... There are no rules. They could just pick the winner. They did that on this stage. This is more like the Tonys than a sport.


So you're saying that it's OK for the crowd to determine the outcome of the race.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Video shows Nairo Quintana taking a tow from a motorbike on Ventoux - Cycling Weekly


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

MMsRepBike said:


> They said with platform the foot moves around all over with modern shoes and they don't really work.
> 
> I don't know what the problem is, I see plenty of room on the road:
> 
> ...


Jeebus, that's insane. 


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

Ha ha great video.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

If I'm not mistaken with my math, Froome would be back in yellow after today's time trial even if he had been given his actual finish time on yesterday's stage.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

il sogno said:


> Anyone notice that Froome looked down at his stem just before the crash?


Yes I did. Are you trying to say Froome wouldn't have crashed if he weren't looking down? Then why did Porte and Mollema crash? I'm just trying to understand your logic.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

ngl said:


> Yes I did. Are you trying to say Froome wouldn't have crashed if he weren't looking down? Then why did Porte and Mollema crash? I'm just trying to understand your logic.


The "logic" may just be "cracking wise", but I'm just guessing.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

velodog said:


> So you're saying that it's OK for the crowd to determine the outcome of the race.


Not exactly... I'm saying they need to have and apply rules fairly. If there isn't a rule about fan interference than the result is what happened. Fix it over the winter. They are just making it up as they go. Deciding Froome can't have a weird catastrophic disaster because they don't want him to. That's not sports. Weird stuff happens. It's the thing legendary games are made of. The impossible. The 10,00-1 shot. By the logic supporting the decision, PSU gets the ball back in the example below. 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2006-11-06-clock-loophole_x.htm

Riders have faced all kinds of weird things, they haven't readjuticated a result for any of them. So, a fan has a large plastic bag blow out of their hands, onto a race track and it hits and melts into the air intake of a race car, disabling it. What happens? Bad luck dude... Fan interference lost you the race. 

That's what I'm saying. Thanks for asking! 


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> Not exactly... I'm saying they need to have and apply rules fairly. If there isn't a rule about fan interference than the result is what happened. Fix it over the winter. They are just making it up as they go. Deciding Froome can't have a weird catastrophic disaster because they don't want him to. That's not sports. Weird stuff happens. It's the thing legendary games are made of. The impossible. The 10,00-1 shot. By the logic supporting the decision, PSU gets the ball back in the example below.
> 
> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2006-11-06-clock-loophole_x.htm
> 
> ...


Nullifying a result because the organizers know they screwed up is not favoring Froome. What is the precedent if they do nothing? Fans are free to interfere in the race and the result is just tough luck for those affected? French fans start tackling all the non-French contenders? 

Get a grip. 


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Fireform said:


> Nullifying a result because the organizers know they screwed up is not favoring Froome. What is the precedent if they do nothing? Fans are free to interfere in the race and the result is just tough luck for those affected? French fans start tackling all the non-French contenders?
> 
> Get a grip.
> 
> ...


So, by your logic, if a fan makes contact with a rider and crashes them, they will get special consideration in all cases? It being Froome has no bearing? And I'm to get a grip? Yea, they screwed up. Absolutely no argument. But it's arbitrary and high handed. 


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> So, by your logic, if a fan makes contact with a rider and crashes them, they will get special consideration in all cases? It being Froome has no bearing? And I'm to get a grip? Yea, they screwed up. Absolutely no argument. But it's arbitrary and high handed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, but virtually everyone, including the rider who surrendered the yellow jersey because of the nullification, is on record as saying the right thing was done. Maybe that should tell you something about your take on the situation? You think?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Fireform said:


> I'm sorry, but virtually everyone, including the rider who surrendered the yellow jersey because of the nullification, is on record as saying the right thing was done. Maybe that should tell you something about your take on the situation? You think?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OK, I get that. Everyone likes it. It's still making it up as you go. And your logic about Froome? You skipped that? In the example I give, does some domestique get a time bonus? Dumoulin was just asking for his time bonus because he was interfered with... Yeah, he's being sarcastic, but I think a lot of truth is told in that. 


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

il sogno said:


> Anyone notice that Froome looked down at his stem just before the crash?


Bad timing? Was Froome checking his computer at the wrong moment? Or looking down to see where he was crashing? I thought the latter.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fireform said:


> Nullifying a result because the organizers know they screwed up is not favoring Froome. What is the precedent if they do nothing? Fans are free to interfere in the race and the result is just tough luck for those affected? French fans start tackling all the non-French contenders?
> 
> Get a grip.
> 
> ...


I think that maybe something of that sort has been done.

I'm thinking that the Italians have probably come to the aide of the Italians at the Giro, Tour too.

Oh, and we don't want to forget the Spanish, they've got theirs to protect also.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> OK, I get that. Everyone likes it. It's still making it up as you go. And your logic about Froome? You skipped that? In the example I give, does some domestique get a time bonus? Dumoulin was just asking for his time bonus because he was interfered with... Yeah, he's being sarcastic, but I think a lot of truth is told in that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Incredibly, situations arise from time to time in sports where the rules are not clear or don't apply. This happens in all sports, and should not come as such a shock in a sport conducted on public roads before large crowds and in virtually all weather conditions. Golf is another sport that relies on stewards for such judgement calls, though played on much more controlled courses. Certainly not getting my undies in a bunch over it, and neither is (almost) anyone else. 


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Fredrico said:


> Bad timing? Was Froome checking his computer at the wrong moment? Or looking down to see where he was crashing? I thought the latter.


Porte was the first to crash, and he definitely wasn't looking anywhere but up the road. 


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

PBL450 said:


> So, by your logic, if a fan makes contact with a rider and crashes them, they will get special consideration in all cases? It being Froome has no bearing? And I'm to get a grip? Yea, they screwed up. Absolutely no argument. But it's arbitrary and high handed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This was not just a fan making contact with a rider, this was a whole lot of drunken knuckleheads turning the whole final kilometer into disarray. It's what you call extraordinary circumstances.

It isn't the 1st time a Grand Tour has been shortened on the fly like this, snow in the mountains have moved the finish line up after the break has made it to the finish.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Fireform said:


> Incredibly, situations arise from time to time in sports where the rules are not clear or don't apply. This happens in all sports, and should not come as such a shock in a sport conducted on public roads before large crowds and in virtually all weather conditions. Golf is another sport that relies on stewards for such judgement calls, though played on much more controlled courses. Certainly not getting my undies in a bunch over it, and neither is (almost) anyone else.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm clearly the minority... I just think deus ex machina has no place in sports. I get the public risk thing, no doubt about it... But again, they are only going to do this for one rider. That get my knickers in a bunch. 


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Fireform said:


> Porte was the first to crash, and he definitely wasn't looking anywhere but up the road.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, but Froome was looking down! He must have been relying on Porte, not looking up the road. :nono:


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

PBL450 said:


> I'm clearly the minority... I just think deus ex machina has no place in sports. I get the public risk thing, no doubt about it... But again, they are only going to do this for one rider. That get my knickers in a bunch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Race organizers also gave time for a bunch of other riders stopped in this crash. They are clearly taking responsibility for all the riders, not singling out Froome because he's the reigning champ. Froome was already up front. They just let him keep his position in the overall standings, same as the other riders held up in the crash.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> This was not just a fan making contact with a rider, this was a whole lot of drunken knuckleheads turning the whole final kilometer into disarray. It's what you call extraordinary circumstances.
> 
> It isn't the 1st time a Grand Tour has been shortened on the fly like this, snow in the mountains have moved the finish line up after the break has made it to the finish.


You hit it. The only mistake race organizers made was moving up the finish line 6 km without also moving up the barriers! :idea: They could have at least separated the crowd. Maybe they couldn't.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

PBL450 said:


> I'm clearly the minority... I just think deus ex machina has no place in sports. I get the public risk thing, no doubt about it... But again, they are only going to do this for one rider. That get my knickers in a bunch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Rules don't apply in a straightforward way when a course does not conform to race protocols, as the course on Ventoux didn't (lack of barriers, signage, etc.). It was the result of the ASO being unable to conform to those protocols which caused the incident. And it was a lot more than a stray fan. It was a complete breakdown of the course due to hugely overwhelming numbers of fans. The logistics surrounding course protocols at the TdF are by far the most complex of any sporting event, so it's not entirely the ASO's fault, but it was their responsibility along with the UCI commissioners to determine a fair outcome. Disqualifying Froome would have been ridiculous (Quntano also hung on to a motorcycle, which provides far more benefit than running). The result was a fair one given all the extenuating circumstances.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

stevesbike said:


> Rules don't apply in a straightforward way when a course does not conform to race protocols, as the course on Ventoux didn't (lack of barriers, signage, etc.). It was the result of the ASO being unable to conform to those protocols which caused the incident. And it was a lot more than a stray fan. It was a complete breakdown of the course due to hugely overwhelming numbers of fans. The logistics surrounding course protocols at the TdF are by far the most complex of any sporting event, so it's not entirely the ASO's fault, but it was their responsibility along with the UCI commissioners to determine a fair outcome. Disqualifying Froome would have been ridiculous (Quntano also hung on to a motorcycle, which provides far more benefit than running). The result was a fair one given all the extenuating circumstances.


Fair... I agree. Largely (and because y'all are wearing me down on this, haha). Froome lost his head. That kind of breakdown causes people to lose championships. He broke the rules. Broke! He advanced without his bike. He should be accountable for making a colossally bad decision. And no, I don't care about the heat of the moment... Great athletes win championships.because they don't do that. 


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

bikerjulio said:


> perhaps watch another sport? you seem to be clueless about this one.


Still waiting for your rules post? I'm clueless, I need your help. Where is your rules post supporting how clueless I am? Hello? Still there? I should watch another sport... Can you justify your snarky BS post with a rules reply or not? 


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Why is Porte helping Froome so much in the first place? If I'm his DS I'm telling him to ride Froome's wheel, but no way he should be working for him. And this is not the first time this has happened. He seems to forger he is no longer with Sky. Also to me Froome was reaping e benefits of Porte's work so he should also have to suffer the consequence when his "pacer" doesn't "see" the moto. Mollema got screwed rather than being rewarded for his athletic ability of getting up first and getting to the finish.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

PBL450 said:


> Fair... I agree. Largely (and because y'all are wearing me down on this, haha). Froome lost his head. That kind of breakdown causes people to lose championships. He broke the rules. Broke! He advanced without his bike. He should be accountable for making a colossally bad decision. And no, I don't care about the heat of the moment... Great athletes win championships.because they don't do that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Can we give poor Froome credit for making up for his egregious error yesterday by going 1:47 back into the lead after today's TTs?

The guy's no wimp, ya gotta admit that. He's training up for the mountain stages.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

GKSki said:


> Why is Porte helping Froome so much in the first place? If I'm his DS I'm telling him to ride Froome's wheel, but no way he should be working for him. And this is not the first time this has happened. He seems to forger he is no longer with Sky. Also to me Froome was reaping e benefits of Porte's work so he should also have to suffer the consequence when his "pacer" doesn't "see" the moto. Mollema got screwed rather than being rewarded for his athletic ability of getting up first and getting to the finish.


Did you actually watch any of the videos of the crash?
Riders in breaks take turns at the front, Porte just happened to be the one in front when the motorcycle suddenly stopped. It would not have mattered who was in front, the crash still would have happened.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

ngl said:


> Yes I did. Are you trying to say Froome wouldn't have crashed if he weren't looking down? Then why did Porte and Mollema crash? I'm just trying to understand your logic.


He shouldn't be looking for Pokemon while riding.


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

dnice said:


> So cycling has no rules for this type of ish? Just a group of guys sitting around asking each other: "so what's your thoughts on this"?


They have what's called a jury. No way rules can be adopted for every situation.


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## dgturc83 (Jul 18, 2010)

I've been looking through the regulations to find the rule regarding advancing with out your bicycle. The closest rule related to this that I can find is:

*"1.2.109 The rider may cross the finish line on foot, provided that has his bicycle with him."/B]

Going to keep looking for a while if anyone knows a more specific regulation please share.

This is where I found them: Regulations

A lot of these rules seem loosely enforced anyways. Like this one right before it:

"1.2.108 Unless otherwise stated, each rider shall, in order to be classified, complete the race entirely through his own effort, without the assistance of any other person."/B]

So team mechanics shouldn't be pushing riders the get them going after a break down?*


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> Can we give poor Froome credit for making up for his egregious error yesterday by going 1:47 back into the lead after today's TTs?
> 
> The guy's no wimp, ya gotta admit that. He's training up for the mountain stages.


he's a monster. He's a machine. He's crushing his competition. He is a great cyclist. That's why this matters so much. He ate the back of a motorcycle and ran without his bicycle so the jury just decided to be the hand of God and make that go away because they don't like that result.


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

il sogno said:


> He shouldn't be looking for Pokemon while riding.


True. I think Pokemon was further down the hill.


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## GKSki (Nov 12, 2014)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Did you actually watch any of the videos of the crash?
> Riders in breaks take turns at the front, Porte just happened to be the one in front when the motorcycle suddenly stopped. It would not have mattered who was in front, the crash still would have happened.


You're missing the point, Porte should not be working in front of Froome at all. He still thinks he works for Sky. Same thing happened earlier in the first week of the race. If he's not strong enough to attack Froome, then he shouldn't be helping him make time on TJ.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

PBL450 said:


> he's a monster. He's a machine. He's crushing his competition. He is a great cyclist. That's why this matters so much. He ate the back of a motorcycle and ran without his bicycle so the jury just decided to be the hand of God and make that go away because they don't like that result.


They would have done exactly the same thing for Porte and Mollema and everyone else held up by the crash if Froome wasn't there. Your argument is ridiculous. 


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Fireform said:


> They would have done exactly the same thing for Porte and Mollema and everyone else held up by the crash if Froome wasn't there. Your argument is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, I've been using Froome, sorry, I mean yellow jersey/yellow jersey group which is Froome in this case. If he was 65th right now fan interference would be ignored. 


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## ngl (Jan 22, 2002)

GKSki said:


> You're missing the point, Porte should not be working in front of Froome at all. He still thinks he works for Sky. Same thing happened earlier in the first week of the race. If he's not strong enough to attack Froome, then he shouldn't be helping him make time on TJ.


It depends on a number of factors. The first being (to my understanding) Porte is an equal leader of BMC and does not have to ride in support of TJ. Otherwise, team orders would have instructed Port not to help Froome.

Second, TJ is not going to beat Froome in the tour. Neither is Porte. If Porte can work with Froome so they can both gain time on the field (and this helps Porte move up in the classification) then it will be a win-win for both. 

Third, maybe tomorrow it's Porte with another GC contender, and Porte moves closer to a podium position. Personally, I don't see that for TJ.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

I saw this video at Dave Moulton's blog 

Dave Moulton's Blog - Dave Moulton's Bike Blog - Curious goings*on


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

velodog said:


> I saw this video at Dave Moulton's blog


Him being a Brit, you know it was just a matter of time before someone comes up with that.

It just so happens, couple years ago, I caught a YouTube vid of Benny Hill show on Eddy Merckx.


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