# And now it is Georges turn



## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/20/60minutes/main20064858.shtml



> Hincapie testified that he and Armstrong supplied each other with the endurance-boosting substance EPO and discussed having used another banned substance, testosterone, to prepare for races,


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Well that's that. If Hincapie says he did it, he did it.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Time for Fabiani to shovel some more crap on this one.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

George is apparently claiming he will not talk about his testimony to the press

Len


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

This one could be fun to watch. The typical LA defense is to discredit the source. This is a much easier game to play when the source is Floyd and Tyler.

GH doesn't share the same history as FL and TH. Is LA going to attack GH? Is he going to release dirt on GH to cover his a**?

What are the people on RBR that scream "XX has lied about his doping for years, why should we believe him now" going to fall back on?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

If they choose to smear a guy like Hincapie it will backfire big time. 

Next up....the hospital room.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Len J said:


> George is apparently claiming he will not talk about his testimony to the press
> 
> Len


There's the story for LA's team:

This is an awful leak, and the government is clearly trying to influence the public on this case. We ask that this leak be investigated and that 60 minutes producers be publicly flogged for their lack of journalistic ethics.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

SilasCL said:


> There's the story for LA's team:
> 
> This is an awful leak, and the government is clearly trying to influence the public on this case. We ask that this leak be investigated and that 60 minutes producers be publicly flogged for their lack of journalistic ethics.


I'd suspect George alerted the Lance camp......they've had time to prepare their defense. 

Len


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thank you George Hincapie.

How does Lance attempt to discredit him?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

DZfan14 said:


> Thank you George Hincapie.
> 
> How does Lance attempt to discredit him?


http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6571826



> Asked to comment on the newest "60 Minutes" segment, Armstrong's spokesman, Mark Fabiani, said: "We have no way of knowing what happened in the grand jury and so can't comment on these anonymously sourced reports."


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## godot (Feb 3, 2004)

Len J said:


> I'd suspect George alerted the Lance camp......they've had time to prepare their defense.
> 
> Len


GH did have the courtesy to tell LA that his team was about to put the hammer down during a stage in LA's last tour, so I'm sure GH alerted him to this much less pressing matter. :thumbsup:


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## farm (Jul 10, 2008)

Coffin, meet Nail.

No way did I anticipate this. George is unimpeachable. Game over.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

SilasCL said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6571826


Hincapie's quotes are straight out of Mark McGuire's playbook.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

No chain, no chain


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

farm said:


> Coffin, meet Nail.
> 
> No way did I anticipate this. George is unimpeachable. Game over.


Yep...


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## ilmaestro (May 3, 2008)

farm said:


> Coffin, meet Nail.
> 
> No way did I anticipate this. George is unimpeachable. Game over.


Exactly what I was thinking.

I've often thought about what would happen once the world of Lance Armstrong finally started collapsing under the weight of the truth about his doping. I think that world is finally about to arrive.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Henry Porter said:


> Yep...


time for LA to fess up. Otherwise he begins to look foolish.
remember when Ahnold ran for governator: "I was on rowdy movie sets and I have done some things..."

He could just come out and say: "Yes, we did everything and anything in order to prepare our bodies to survive these inhuman efforts required at the Tour de France. We all did what we had to do, and what everyone else was doing. This was part of the game.. I ask for your forgiveness and for redemption through the work I do now."


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

So what happens to Hancapie now since he has also admitted he's a doper too?


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

55x11 said:


> time for LA to fess up. Otherwise he begins to look foolish.
> remember when Ahnold ran for governator: "I was on rowdy movie sets and I have done some things..."
> 
> "


Nope. He'll pull a Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with _'that woman'_" ) to the end.

He'll get bruised, but somehow still come out smelling like a rose.


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## sappie66 (Oct 28, 2009)

55x11 said:


> time for LA to fess up. Otherwise he begins to look foolish.
> remember when Ahnold ran for governator: "I was on rowdy movie sets and I have done some things..."
> 
> He could just come out and say: "Yes, we did everything and anything in order to prepare our bodies to survive these inhuman efforts required at the Tour de France. We all did what we had to do, and what everyone else was doing. This was part of the game.. I ask for your forgiveness and for redemption through the work I do now."


And if anyone else fessed up, I would be inclined to understand and forgive, but not LA. LA not only observed the omerta, he was the most aggressive and intimidating enforcers of it. He brought tremendous pressure to bear on Christophe Bassons, and essentially forced him into early retirement. He chased down Simeoni in a shameful bullying display. And he claims a moral highground of being a cancer fighter -- the ends do not justify the means, people. Too self-serving IMO.



TerminatorX91 said:


> So what happens to Hancapie now since he has also admitted he's a doper too?


I would think BMC has no choice but to fire him. Unless they say, "George has been a wonderful influence on the team and we all look up to him. What he may have done in the past is over and we must look to the future, blah blah blah.


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## sappie66 (Oct 28, 2009)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Nope. He'll pull a Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with _'that woman'_" ) to the end.
> 
> He'll get bruised, but somehow still come out smelling like a rose.


God I hope you are wrong!


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

sappie66 said:


> I would think BMC has no choice but to fire him. Unless they say, "George has been a wonderful influence on the team and we all look up to him. What he may have done in the past is over and we must look to the future, blah blah blah.


Why would they have to fire him? Wouldn't that serve as dis-incentive for riders to speak the truth (say anything and you are fired!). If he is not doping now and he is talking about ancient history with another team, he should keep his job. Zabel and Aldag keep their jobs with HTC.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

lying to a grand jury can equal prison time
I'm sure George alerted the proper people he wasn't gonna lie
now if they would just get the Rocket behind bars


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## sappie66 (Oct 28, 2009)

55x11 said:


> Why would they have to fire him? Wouldn't that serve as dis-incentive for riders to speak the truth (say anything and you are fired!). If he is not doping now and he is talking about ancient history with another team, he should keep his job. Zabel and Aldag keep their jobs with HTC.


You could be right. It would depend on the team's policy. As far as disincentives for telling the truth, such disincentives are rampant in cycling. I would say it is one of pro cycling's characterizing features. It's called _omerta_.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

TerminatorX91 said:


> So what happens to Hancapie now since he has also admitted he's a doper too?


George hasn't admitted anything yet. What he said in the grand jury is sealed, permanently. He doesn't want this crap storm on him while he's still racing, and consequently is playing his hand a lot differently than Tyler or Floyd.


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## El Caballito (Oct 31, 2004)

55x11 said:


> time for LA to fess up. Otherwise he begins to look foolish.
> remember when Ahnold ran for governator: "I was on rowdy movie sets and I have done some things..."
> 
> He could just come out and say: "Yes, we did everything and anything in order to prepare our bodies to survive these inhuman efforts required at the Tour de France. We all did what we had to do, and what everyone else was doing. This was part of the game.. I ask for your forgiveness and for redemption through the work I do now."


Agree!!! well said.:thumbsup:


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

Well, game over for Lance.

Hincapie told the truth and that is all there is. FL, TL and now the most credible source of all, GH.

Lance Armstrong is a doper. I have always know this, every time he won a stage with his exaggerated high cadence a normal person could never follow for such extended spans of time. This is a relief for cycling. The seven times tour-champion is nothing but a cheater and a fraud.

Now, some will say it was a level playing field and that he didn't take more doping than others, but that is BS. He had the best products and he could only recover fast because of that. He would never have won even a single tour without doping.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Typical Hincappie bs to the very end. 

Some people see him as sweet and lovable. I see the man as extremely guarded and adverse to any controversy no matter how small. I personally detest these types of people because they are so tight lipped that you never know where they stand so they always come out smelling like a rose.

Hincappie grow some nuts and tell it like it is for a change.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

GH----"It's just unfortunate that that's all people want to talk about now," he said. "I'm not going to partake in any cycling-bashing. I have done everything to be the best I can be. ... *I want the focus on the future of the sport, what it's done to clean itself up.* I believe in cycling and want to support it."

So can criminals use this defense in the future as well. Sure I used to steal cars and rob people, but I've been working at the animal shelter and donating my time at the rest home for the past two years. I want to focus on the future.....there's no need to charge me with anything now.


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## RUFUSPHOTO (Oct 14, 2010)

Straight from George via Twitter.

http://twitter.com/#!/ghincapie/status/71734167322374145


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

heathb said:


> Typical Hincappie bs to the very end.
> 
> Some people see him as sweet and lovable. I see the man as extremely guarded and adverse to any controversy no matter how small. I personally detest these types of people because they are so tight lipped that you never know where they stand so they always come out smelling like a rose.
> 
> Hincappie grow some nuts and tell it like it is for a change.


I agree. I'm not buying this whole 'Hincapie is untouchable and a paragon of truth' nonsense. If he gave the grant jury anything with teeth, it means he has been committing--at a minimum--lies of omission for years and years.


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## Metro commuter (Apr 8, 2011)

Hmmm. 

Wonder WHY this is being played out in the media, rather than the criminal justice centre where it belongs? These are very serious allegations and Lance, as the potential accused, is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

I am not pro-Lance and anti-Lance. For the sake of cycling I hope the allegations are not true, but if he is convicted then he deserves what he gets. 

What is not right is arm chair experts, who have no actual evidence before them, prepared to convict him in the "court" of public opinion. We should,with respect, let the criminal justice system do its work.

The irony is all this media speculation could ground an argument from Lance's team that he is unable to receive a fair trial. Now wouldn't that be a sweet irony if those in the media who sensationalise this were to cause a trial to be aborted?


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

This is of course game over and what many have been waiting to learn. What would George say, the one who has not tested positive and is revered as a likable, honest guy.

We have our answer, even if it came through a leak, and merely confirms what I thought: Hincapie would tell the truth in front of the grand jury.

There are two huge things of significance here in my assessment:

1. There is no way out for Armstrong. 

The only thing that remains is to write the final chapters. He has lost his chance to willingly come clean for the good of the sport. I wouldn't be surprised to see a mea culpa confession with tears at some point. But it will all be b.s. in my estimation. He fought and fought and called his former friends and teammates liars and cheats again and again when he knew they were just telling the truth. Armstrong's chance at honor has slipped away. Will he lose his Tour titles in the record books? Will he have to plead guilty to some crime? Will he have to divest himself of ties to his charity? Or least have it modified and subjected to much different governance to save it? 

2. This federal investigation (and Landis' allegations that helped lead to it, and the cyclists who have told the truth to the grand jury), will be huge factors in helping find a new day for cycling. 

There are some managers and teams that have likely already made big difference. The U.S. federal investigation will now play a huge role as well. I anticipate a shake up in the governing body of cycling, a shake up that has been overdue, but the federal investigation and what it reveals will help break down that dam. Don't expect something to happen overnight--it will take time because the feds haven't even filed charges yet--but when they do I'd look for charges from multiple governments against many riders, managers, etc. within the same general time frame.


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## ElvisMerckx (Oct 11, 2002)

heathb said:


> I personally detest these types of people because they are so tight lipped that you never know where they stand ....


I've never met you, but I know I would destroy you in poker.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

So refreshing to see some honesty for a change. Cycling should be an honourable sport. The corruption to this day is insidious, right up to the UCI. Time for change.


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

RUFUSPHOTO said:


> Straight from George via Twitter.
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/ghincapie/status/71734167322374145


He does not deny the information itself.


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## matchmaker (Aug 15, 2009)

heathb said:


> GH----"It's just unfortunate that that's all people want to talk about now," he said. "I'm not going to partake in any cycling-bashing. I have done everything to be the best I can be. ... *I want the focus on the future of the sport, what it's done to clean itself up.* I believe in cycling and want to support it."
> 
> So can criminals use this defense in the future as well. Sure I used to steal cars and rob people, but I've been working at the animal shelter and donating my time at the rest home for the past two years. I want to focus on the future.....there's no need to charge me with anything now.


Well, the whole peloton was doping. It was a system. To be a cyclist, you had to dope.

I remember the case of a Belgian cyclist, Hedwig van Hooydonk, who won the Tour the Flanders twice. A year later he said, everyone is flying and I am riding just as fast as I used to, something is wrong here. He retired. But there are few who would do that and forsake their breadwinning.

It is time for everyone to confess. It's understandable some people lied for some time. It's not understandable that people keep on lying when the burden of proof is so heavy. When they won against dopers and obviously could not have done so in a clean way.


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## T-shirt (Aug 15, 2004)

Let me be the first to congratulate Iker Flores on his 2005 Tour de France win!


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

T-shirt said:


> Let me be the first to congratulate Iker Flores on his 2005 Tour de France win!


Awesome!


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Omerta has jumped the shark


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

TerminatorX91 said:


> So what happens to Hancapie now since he has also admitted he's a doper too?


The statute of limitations in cycling is 8 years.


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

*Good post*



Metro commuter said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Wonder WHY this is being played out in the media, rather than the criminal justice centre where it belongs? These are very serious allegations and Lance, as the potential accused, is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> ...



- x2.


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

Gatorback said:


> This is of course game over and what many have been waiting to learn. What would George say, the one who has not tested positive and is revered as a likable, honest guy.
> 
> We have our answer, even if it came through a leak, and merely confirms what I thought: Hincapie would tell the truth in front of the grand jury.
> 
> ...



- Way to ASSUME everything. Aren't you a "trial lawyer"??? 
Did you READ GH's Tweet??? 
Nobody has heard it through a Judges mouth as to "what George said"...


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## Brad the Bold (Jun 8, 2010)

rubbersoul said:


> Omerta has jumped the shark


The Mafia's omerta holds up better since it is backed by threat of death.

Breaking cycling's omerta has been punished by ostracism and slander. So it's not holding up well against the threat of jail time for purjuring oneself before a Fed Grand Jury.


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

hampsten88 said:


> A few comments:
> 
> 1) Actually the high cadence is much easier for a "normal person" to achieve then a slow cadence like Ullrich used to use to stay with Armstrong.
> 
> ...



- The explanation you seek is: People don't use this thing called "common sense" anymore.
And I completely concur with your post 100%. :thumbsup:


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

matchmaker said:


> He does not deny the information itself.


It's just a misdirection and means nothing. 60 minutes never claimed he spoke with them, just that he told this to the grand jury.


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

DMFT said:


> - Way to ASSUME everything. Aren't you a "trial lawyer"???
> Did you READ GH's Tweet???
> Nobody has heard it through a Judges mouth as to "what George said"...


Looks like this tweet is what the Lance doping deniers are going to grasp onto for now.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

yeah cycling, just like life- will be "clean" now.. the Super Seven has been around for eternity, so with LA busted this dawns a new era of cycling...
excuse me while I just laugh in anyone's face that believes this.

just like the NCAA is all about "amatuer atheletics" and the olympics are clean, and sports matches are not fixed....LOLOLOL


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

Henry Porter said:


> Looks like this tweet is what the Lance doping deniers are going to grasp onto for now.


- Do you grasp the fact that GH couldn't have said what is being "reported" by CBS/60 Min. WITHOUT going to jail himself for speaking BEFORE the Grand Jury's trial?????

Again, wat to assume. But if it makes you feel better....... :thumbsup:


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

DMFT said:


> - Do you grasp the fact that GH couldn't have said what is being "reported" by CBS/60 Min. WITHOUT going to jail himself for speaking BEFORE the Grand Jury's trial?????
> 
> Again, wat to assume. But if it makes you feel better....... :thumbsup:


I think you really need to read the articles on what is being reported before flying off the handle like this.


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## DMFT (Feb 3, 2005)

Henry Porter said:


> I think you really need to read the articles on what is being reported before flying off the handle like this.


Again, if it makes you feel better..... 
Have a SUPER day! :thumbsup:


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

The sad thing is a guy like GH is probably blessed with the genetics that puts him right at the top. He's got the classic build of a guy that is born for athletic performance. 

If he needs PEDs then whats that say about the rest of us.


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## mcwenzel (Jun 9, 2006)

This reminds me of the Andy Pettite testimony about Roger Clemens. Pettite, unlike Canseco and others did not seek the limelight but was forced to provide testimony under oath and refused to lie under oath.

Clemens and Pettite were very close friends towards the end of their careers. Clemens claims Pettite simply "misrembered," but did not attack him personally or otherwise seek to discredit him.

If Hincapie never saw evidence of doping, he would state so. The fact that he hasn't come out and said that says it all.


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## HikenBike (Apr 3, 2007)

Metro commuter said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Wonder WHY this is being played out in the media, rather than the criminal justice centre where it belongs? These are very serious allegations and Lance, as the potential accused, is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> ...


Too bad the real world doesn't work that way. That's just reality. Everyone participates in the court of public opinion one way or another.


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## rydbyk (Feb 17, 2010)

*Nobody really thinks Hincapie raced "clean" do they?*

Never failed a test does not mean much to me any more...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*point 3*



hampsten88 said:


> A few comments:
> 
> 1) Actually the high cadence is much easier for a "normal person" to achieve then a slow cadence like Ullrich used to use to stay with Armstrong.
> 
> ...


all of Lance's Rivals, Pantani, Ullrich, Basso, Beloki, Simoni were busted. All were using PEDs, the playing field is even. Just like a doped Contador is stronger than the doped Italians at this years Giro


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## TerminatorX91 (Mar 27, 2011)

SilasCL said:


> George hasn't admitted anything yet. What he said in the grand jury is sealed, permanently. He doesn't want this crap storm on him while he's still racing, and consequently is playing his hand a lot differently than Tyler or Floyd.




That's true. It's only what CBS News claims he said in his testimony to the grand jury.


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## frontierwolf (Jun 21, 2008)

Gatorback said:


> This is of course game over and what many have been waiting to learn. What would George say, the one who has not tested positive and is revered as a likable, honest guy.
> 
> We have our answer, even if it came through a leak, and merely confirms what I thought: Hincapie would tell the truth in front of the grand jury.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? Did you not just see the RFEC clear Contador? Why would any European pros care if the US doping police accuses LA of doping? Did you read the VeloNews article with Scott Mercier where he said a doping program was in place at USPS years before LA or JB were even there? If Lance goes into the situation Scott Mercier was in and was told "you have to take this to ride for USPS" does that make him the mastermind or is he just another doper on a team of dopers? How far does it go back? 

It didn't start with LA or JB. If he doesn't fail a test it's not his responsibility to "come clean" about his sponsors or say something that's going to embarrass them. He was the team leader so of course he's going to be the media face of the team and no spokesman is going to come out and say his team was cheating. 

My current question is if there was a doping program in place what looks to be at least several years before LA was on the scene, what real value does it add to the case to publicly show that LA used? Why leak GH's testimony? If he was required to use PEDs to ride for Postal then why is he the focus? Because he's the big name and the most visible figurehead from a generation of US cheaters? This isn't about cleaning up cycling. It's about Jeff Novitzky getting a headline and proving there's a new sheriff in town. He wasn't some great criminal mastermind and really when you boil it down he didn't do anything different than any other US rider was accused of. It seems to me like the real difference between GH and LA is that LA may not have to testify in the case because he obtained some minor ownership in the company 10-15 years after the USPS "fraud doping program" was initiated.

But then again, we're a media driven society. They like to build you up when it sells papers. Tearing someone down is the only thing that sells more than a success story. It gives 60 minutes a story this Sunday and I'm sure they'll get a nice little ratings bump since it's coming out on the heels of the ToC.


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## Gaear Grimsrud (Oct 18, 2010)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> Nope. He'll pull a Clinton ("I did not have sexual relations with _'that woman'_" ) to the end.
> 
> He'll get bruised, but somehow still come out smelling like a rose.


The similarity with Clinton and Armstrong is that they are public figures whose collapse is too awful to imagine. But unlike Clinton who will always be known for his successes in office, Armstrong's image is dependent on being a cancer activist, which in turn depends on his cycling miracles. Once his credibility in cycling is destroyed, there will be the political will to delve into his Livestrong activities, and the picture there will not be pretty. I imagine something along the lines of Greg "Three Cups of Tea" Mortenson. As Lemond said, "If Armstrong's clean, it's the greatest comeback. And if he's not, then it's the greatest fraud."

"Lance Armstrong" is going to be a sort of shorthand, like "Black Sox".


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## lastchild (Jul 4, 2009)

frontierwolf said:


> Are you kidding? Did you not just see the RFEC clear Contador? Why would any European pros care if the US doping police accuses LA of doping? Did you read the VeloNews article with Scott Mercier where he said a doping program was in place at USPS years before LA or JB were even there? If Lance goes into the situation Scott Mercier was in and was told "you have to take this to ride for USPS" does that make him the mastermind or is he just another doper on a team of dopers? How far does it go back?
> 
> It didn't start with LA or JB. If he doesn't fail a test it's not his responsibility to "come clean" about his sponsors or say something that's going to embarrass them. He was the team leader so of course he's going to be the media face of the team and no spokesman is going to come out and say his team was cheating.
> 
> ...


+1
If all this is true then there's someone in the wings who's the real Big Fish. Lance and JB are just the bait...

Ochowicz and Carmichael should be nervous...


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

sappie66 said:


> And if anyone else fessed up, I would be inclined to understand and forgive, but not LA. LA not only observed the omerta, he was the most aggressive and intimidating enforcers of it. He brought tremendous pressure to bear on Christophe Bassons, and essentially forced him into early retirement. He chased down Simeoni in a shameful bullying display. And he claims a moral highground of being a cancer fighter -- the ends do not justify the means, people. Too self-serving IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think BMC has no choice but to fire him. Unless they say, "George has been a wonderful influence on the team and we all look up to him. What he may have done in the past is over and we must look to the future, blah blah blah.


Agreed, 100%


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## aptivaboy (Nov 21, 2009)

mcwenzel, I think you're right. GH probably wouldn't have said anything were it not for a grand jury subpeona. Having been subpoenaed, he had no choice and told the truth, if the leaked reports are to be believed. I tend to think GH probably told the truth, straight up, without any elaboration or histrionics like Floyd would have done. 

_If Hincapie never saw evidence of doping, he would state so. The fact that he hasn't come out and said that says it all._

Exactly.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Anyone know if *Johan Bruyneel *has also testified? If they could get him to fess up then Armstrong is toast.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

lastchild said:


> +1
> If all this is true then there's someone in the wings who's the real Big Fish. Lance and JB are just the bait...
> 
> Ochowicz and Carmichael should be nervous...


Tom Weisel. Although I can't believe Ochowicz will come out unscathed either. That guy has been linked to almost as much doping as Armstrong.

I also imagine it will be Armstrong's financial involvement with Weisel & Tailwind Sports as much as his doping that will cause him problems.


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## 95zpro (Mar 28, 2010)

heathb said:


> Anyone know if *Johan Bruyneel *has also testified? If they could get him to fess up then Armstrong is toast.


Prosecutors probably know that he is in cahoots with Lance and would most likely lie for Lance or claim he didn't know about anything. Anyway if he is one of the targets then I wouldn't call him to testify until I had all of the evidence I needed to either collaborate or if he chooses to lie then hang himself with his own testimony (this is how they are going to trap Lance).
My theory is all of this is probably being leaked by the government in order to get Lance to finally come clean in order to hopefully blow the lid off of this thing but like Roger Clemens, Lance's hubris will not let him do it ! Only time will tell if Lance is willing to go to jail or not.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

Bruyneel was busy with getting ice for the coolers


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## sappie66 (Oct 28, 2009)

rubbersoul said:


> Bruyneel was busy with getting ice for the coolers


hehehe


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Precisely.*



Metro commuter said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Wonder WHY this is being played out in the media, rather than the criminal justice centre where it belongs? These are very serious allegations and Lance, as the potential accused, is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of people who'd just love to hang Armstrong, with blood lust in their eyes. That's pitiful, right there. It's the tabloid mentality. It also brings every rider in the sport as suspects. Nobody can go for it now without being accused of doping. That's also pitiful. :frown2:


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## g-Bike (Jan 25, 2006)

What I don't understand is why cycling needs to be clean, and no other sport addressed. I would bet my life's savings that Baseball, Basketball, and definitely Football has a higher percentage of doped athletes than in cycling. Professional sports are like any other business, CEO's cheat, step on and rob other competitors, it is the way of business. If anyone thinks any different think again....


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

g-Bike said:


> What I don't understand is why cycling needs to be clean, and no other sport addressed. I would bet my life's savings that Baseball, Basketball, and definitely Football has a higher percentage of doped athletes than in cycling. Professional sports are like any other business, CEO's cheat, step on and rob other competitors, it is the way of business. If anyone thinks any different think again....



American business standards (compliance) laws have become much stricter in recent years, with significant fines or jail terms as consequences. 

Rationalizing cyclists issues by saying other aspects of society are corrupt is a sad reflection on societies moral character.


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## Gaear Grimsrud (Oct 18, 2010)

Fredrico said:


> There are a lot of people who'd just love to hang Armstrong, with blood lust in their eyes. That's pitiful, right there. It's the tabloid mentality. It also brings every rider in the sport as suspects. Nobody can go for it now without being accused of doping. That's also pitiful. :frown2:


Yes, Armstrong is like St. Sebastian, tied to a tree like pincushion, taking slings and arrows like a martyr.

Except for his smear campaigns against Bassons, Simeoni, the Andreus, Lemond, etc., Armstrong has been innocent as a lamb.



rubbersoul said:


> Rationalizing cyclists issues by saying other aspects of society are corrupt is a sad reflection on societies moral character.


I think it's more a reflection of the individual whose moral compass is like a stick thrown in the air: "Oh, everyone cheats, therefore whatever I do or watch for entertainment is OK."


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

stricter for whom?? the poor ethnic minority who smokes a spliff on the corner??

surely not for the banks, investment houses or any other money making corporation..


NOT one banker has done any time for the whole housing fiasco, and don't bring up that one pig that got caught for insider trading...

are you really from the US?

just this week one of the Enron guys got transferred to the golf club facility....

surely you jest!


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

a_avery007 said:


> yeah cycling, just like life- will be "clean" now.. the Super Seven has been around for eternity, so with LA busted this dawns a new era of cycling...
> excuse me while I just laugh in anyone's face that believes this.
> 
> just like the NCAA is all about "amatuer atheletics" and the olympics are clean, and sports matches are not fixed....LOLOLOL



So what's the alternative - continue to believe and accept the lies and corruption? Not my ethics and not those of many who are willing to take action for change.


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## rubbersoul (Mar 1, 2010)

a_avery007 said:


> stricter for whom?? the poor ethnic minority who smokes a spliff on the corner??
> 
> surely not for the banks, investment houses or any other money making corporation..
> 
> ...


Sarbanes–Oxley Act of 2002 for example. That said, I agree that enacting recent legislation and even successful ruling against corporations via whistleblower legislation is only starching the surface of corporate corruption. Still though, if I'm understanding your viewpoint, one can rationalize any one particular example of corruption by stating that it happens pervasively. Whether you break the law once or multiple times, it is still illegal. I for one support reducing corruption and prosecuting illegal activities. Your views may differ.


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## Fredke (Dec 10, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> lying to a grand jury can equal prison time


But he had the perfect right not to say anything to the grand jury. He chose not to invoke the fifth.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Fredke said:


> But he had the perfect right not to say anything to the grand jury. He chose not to invoke the fifth.


It's called obstruction of justice. Ask Greg Anderson how he liked his 18 months in jail. George is not going to jail for Lance


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## ashpelham (Jan 19, 2006)

I suppose I've gradually been convinced that everyone in the pro peloton, and a lot in the continental circuit, is using something. That "something" is either an outright illegal substance, or something that just hasn't been found out yet, and isn't as of yet on the banned list. Armstrong, for a long time, I believe wouldn't do this to himself, in light of his health concerns of the past. He had a great alibi, and the results of being tested over and over backed it up. Sure, I knew with his funding and backing and support, that he could probably afford the best, and if anyone could take something undetectable, it'd be him.

Now, I'm just one more person who thinks everyone DID dope at that time. Now, we have less of it, but it's still not gone. I hate the way cycling is portrayed by mainstream big media outlets like ESPN. They've wanted to ignore cycling and find a reason to dislike men in tights, in the US, and they really seem to have won that fight. Cycling cannot achieve any level of respectability with stories and apparent truths like this always coming to light. 

Floyd Landis dealt this level of the sport a real shot. The stories that followed were mostly overseas and ignored here. With Armstrong being "outed", I just don't think the sport has any more attractiveness to the big networks, or any other for that matter.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

heathb said:


> Anyone know if *Johan Bruyneel *has also testified? If they could get him to fess up then Armstrong is toast.


Johan is not a witness but a suspect. 

Notice how this week, at the biggest domestic race of the year and 2nd biggest race of the year for their title sponsor Johann was nowhere to be found? 

He stayed in Europe and instead sent the DS for their U23 team in his place.....not like he could send Eki, Feds would have fun with him.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

What does this do to Chris Carmichael and the whole CTS business? If implicated do we throw out our CTS DVDs and training books? Does being lumped in with those who 'protected lance' cost him financially or destroy his business?

This whole mess makes me incredibly sad. How many of those we hold in high esteem will get muddy as a result of this investigation?


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## sappie66 (Oct 28, 2009)

No, Chris Carmichael's ideas for training, despite him being a proponent of "extract of cortisone", are probably still good. Keep your DVDs.

I, for one, hope that they suffer some business loss, but that is another discussion.

I don't mind the idea of the guilty being caught, or "muddied." I will still ride my bike.


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## a_avery007 (Jul 1, 2008)

*then lets really*



rubbersoul said:


> Sarbanes–Oxley Act of 2002 for example. That said, I agree that enacting recent legislation and even successful ruling against corporations via whistleblower legislation is only starching the surface of corporate corruption. Still though, if I'm understanding your viewpoint, one can rationalize any one particular example of corruption by stating that it happens pervasively. Whether you break the law once or multiple times, it is still illegal. I for one support reducing corruption and prosecuting illegal activities. Your views may differ.


prosecute the criminals on Wall St..

lets just start with what the US govt has already won; Exxon, Microsoft, securities fraud against most major investment houses, and now BP.

oh wait, those corportations and their legal *****$ have appealed all those cases and got them either overturned, thrown out or reversed. please save your legal advice for someone who is young, inexperienced and naive...

the higher one goes up the legal tree, the more $ influences the outcomes-period!


so, wasting even 1cent on a case that goes nowhere is utterly useless all things considered in a larger framework.

until there is a zero tolerence policy on all the above, nothing will change- ever:-(


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Who cares what happens to Chris and his CTS business.

I don't know if Chris has any info on this doping, but he seems like a guy that wouldn't object to sticking a needle in Lances arse if Lance asked him.


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## redlizard (Jul 26, 2007)

If you accept that everyone at the elite level dopes, including Lance, doesn't this still make LA and his camp both smarter *AND* better than the rest of the pack? He did kick their asses for years and never tested positive, while others with lesser results got popped left and right. Maybe he had better dope or a better doping plan? If so, did they not share it with the rest of the team? If they shared it with all of the team, wouldn't at least one of them have shared the secret when they left and joined with a new team? I guess this is where the conspiracy theory kicks in...he paid everyone off and no one ever got drunk and blabbed.

My sense is that doper or not, LA had a leg up on the rest. (I made a funny )

If you don't accept that everyone dopes, then we'll never really know if he was better or not.


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## 95zpro (Mar 28, 2010)

heathb said:


> Who cares what happens to Chris and his CTS business.
> 
> I don't know if Chris has any info on this doping, but he seems like a guy that wouldn't object to sticking a needle in Lances arse if Lance asked him.


Wasn't Chris accused of sticking junior riders in the arse way back when anyway?!


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## Tschai (Jun 19, 2003)

heathb said:


> Typical Hincappie bs to the very end.
> 
> Some people see him as sweet and lovable. I see the man as extremely guarded and adverse to any controversy no matter how small. I personally detest these types of people because they are so tight lipped that you never know where they stand so they always come out smelling like a rose.
> 
> Hincappie grow some nuts and tell it like it is for a change.


Agreed. What is so special about Hincapie? It is as if all these people are his personal friends. For all we know he is a giant a$$hat. Now, on the other hand, Jens Voight is da man!!!


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jorgy said:


> I agree. I'm not buying this whole 'Hincapie is untouchable and a paragon of truth' nonsense. If he gave the grant jury anything with teeth, it means he has been committing--at a minimum--lies of omission for years and years.


Hincapie is doing what everyone who testified to grand jury should do - not reveal anything until the case is over.

Besides, don't you have some sympathy to someone in his situation? I mean it's going to be bad no matter what he says. He has no agenda - he is just caught in the middle of all of this. He must be quite conflicted.
I suspect he was being truthful in his testimony but it doesn't mean he needs to join the crusade against Armstrong.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

DMFT said:


> - x2.


it's a juicy, interesting, intriguing, powerful story. Why wouldn't media investigate? This is their JOB!

On a more cynical angle - intentionally or not, this puts more pressure on a lot of people, Armstrong included. It also makes the barrier lower for many people to speak up. Which is good. Of course it also makes the whole affair more messy...


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

95zpro said:


> Wasn't Chris accused of sticking junior riders in the arse way back when anyway?!


are we still talking about doping?


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

so sad to see.
I still love cycling but watching pro races now is a little less enjoyable.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

The problem for me is I've watched some of the best cycling go down in the past with guys that were doped to the gills and it was exciting watching these guys give blood and guts. This may be one of the reasons cycling has become so incredibly boring to watch now. A man acts like a man when he's pumped full of T.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

heathb said:


> The problem for me is I've watched some of the best cycling go down in the past with guys that were doped to the gills and it was exciting watching these guys give blood and guts. This may be one of the reasons cycling has become so incredibly boring to watch now. A man acts like a man when he's pumped full of T.


 
but dont you feel stupid for being impressed with one of these feats only to have it erased time and time again by a positive doping result days, weeks, months..or even years later?

who still has respect for tyler's 'broken shoulder bone' solo breakaway or landis or vinokourov's heroics?


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