# low end vs high end training to improve VO2max in developing riders



## Woof the dog (Jan 28, 2004)

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...enter-can-you-train-to-improve-vo2-max_149095

I couldn't quite get the article itself yet... as in couldn't download it.

I don't quite understand how VO2max is improved by low-end endurance training. Its funny how you can do all sorts of readings, but you still fail to see something...

Considering that cardiovascular system, I think primarily the heart, is the limiting factor in VO2max (ie delivery rather than usage in muscle), how does slow endurance training (going from beginner to elite rider) rather than higher end training allow for cardiovascular adaptation? 

It should be that to produce higher sustained cardio performance, high-end LT or higher type of training should provide the desired stimulus for a beginner rider (or at least provide it faster!), even if cardio muscle is highly oxidative endurance muscle. Even by definition, VO2max is the highest volume delivered, so to train max cardiovascular output, one would want to train at a higher intensity.

Slow endurance training would improve your leg muscle capacity to oxidize lactate and utilize a higher % of lipids to produce watts - in other words, you would be improving power output such that fatigue resistance is higher (higher lactate tolerance/utilization).

Nevermind the 'numerical' change of VO2max as you drop body fat and therefore can go faster because more power is produced "per kg body weight." What I am not clear about is specifically how a new rider developing their VO2max would improve it through riding say, easy tempo, rather than >LT efforts.

Maybe I answered my own question, in that to develop high cardiovascular capacity, endurance training of your heart IS what allows for improvement, similar to skeletal muscle (ie benefits of endurance base).

thanks in advance,
thog de wofo


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

I'm not quite sure what your end question is but a few points...

In truth, VO2 is a somewhat useless term for training other than saying it's the maximum amount of O2 your body can genetically absorb. Most will never realize their full genetic VO2 number as you're right, it's limited by one's cardiovascular system. So unless you're an elite athlete that number will always be changing as you increase in fitness. 

In cycling, endurance is the name of the game so you need to build a very strong aerobic base in order to support a strong anaerobic capacity. Training at or above LT will not produce the cardiovascular changes you're expecting as the limiting factor will be the ability for the body to process all the lactic acid and intermuscular fatigue vs cardiovascular endurance. 

For most riders the process of building a strong aerobic base will raise all levels of their cycling. Be it riding 7 hours at zone 1 or riding 20 seconds at zone 5 you'll be much faster once you have a strong aerobic base. In general, the heart will always be the limiting factor in any type of cycling and developing a huge aerobic engine is the key to doing well. The amount of muscles needed to sustain ~400 watts is really quite small. 

Lastly is that if you actually look how many calories goes into making a watt of energy you'll notice that a huge amount is lost in the body trying to cool itself. Again, another function of the cardiovascular system. Bottom line is that in order to ensure training of aerobic capacity zone 1-2 is generally used. For people with time constraints there has been the adoption of using the SST method where there's a large thread about on this board that you can also consider as well.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Woof the dog said:


> ." What I am not clear about is specifically how a new rider *developing their VO2max would improve it through riding say, easy tempo, rather than >LT *efforts.
> 
> Maybe I answered my own question, in that to develop high cardiovascular capacity, endurance training of your heart IS what allows for improvement, similar to skeletal muscle (ie benefits of endurance base).
> 
> ...


I take it the question was where easy tempo would play into improving the VO2max.

The article stated:


> We typically see increases in VO2 max associated with large volumes of training at low intensities (55-65% of LT power) over long periods of time.
> 
> Furthermore, training at very high intensities (110-135% of LT power) for short intervals (1-5 minutes) also improves maximal aerobic power.





> We typically see improvement in LT with large volumes of low intensity training and sustained efforts (20min to 1 hour) and moderate duration inteverals (5-20min) at 90 to 110% of your threshold intensity.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Woof the dog said:


> I don't quite understand how VO2max is improved by low-end endurance training. Its funny how you can do all sorts of readings, but you still fail to see something...


Because aerobic metabolic adaptations are induced by training at all levels above "recovery".

These induced adaptations are not confined to training at specific intensity levels - it's all a continuum.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

I suppose all training has potential for improving vO2max, but according to Andy Coggan's summary, 
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx
(scroll down to Table 2),
the most "efficient" method is training at Level 5, the nominal "vO2max" zone => interval training.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

tom_h said:


> I suppose all training has potential for improving vO2max, but according to Andy Coggan's summary,
> http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx
> (scroll down to Table 2),
> the most "efficient" method is training at Level 5, the nominal "vO2max" zone => interval training.


There is no dispute that the nature and rate of adaptations induced by training at different levels does vary, but most adaptations occur at most levels.

Which is why I graphically represented this slightly differently this in the chart on this page:
http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=112

Explanation in blog item here:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/01/graphical-representation-of-training.html


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## Woof the dog (Jan 28, 2004)

I guess I need to think more on all this. Because when I think of developing aerobic base, I think of improving muscle capability to soak up oxygen - this I believe happens in response to low end training. So when you are doing harder efforts, more watts are generated using oxidative mechanisms that were boosted due to low end training. Therefore, this 'large aerobic base' raises your ceiling - ie you can ride harder and spare your glycolytic stores of energy. Right? So all this is 'demand'

what about training intensities for the 'supply' part which is your cardiovascular system?

quote was: We typically see increases in VO2 max associated with large volumes of training at low intensities (55-65% of LT power) over long periods of time.

It describes what happens. So, WHY?

VO2max is basically limited by 'supply' rather than demand - so effectively how well your heart pumps blood. A smaller weaker heart of an older or untrained person will pump less oxygenated blood, and that person will be slower. So! How does training at low intensity for long periods of time affect your heart's ability to perform? Sure it trains your 'demand' part. How about the supply part? To improve maximal stroke volume (or whatever is the measurement that matters most), wouldn't one want to do harder efforts at the limit of heart's performance, OR do the same principles of base training apply not only to your quads, but also to your heart?

I think this is what I was asking....

big thanks in advance, this is awesome to be able to think more on this.

dog


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## Woof the dog (Jan 28, 2004)

Alex, where do these aerobic metabolic adaptations happen?
dog

ps i am reading the links only now...


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Woof the dog said:


> Alex, where do these aerobic metabolic adaptations happen?
> dog
> 
> ps i am reading the links only now...


Aerobic adaptations are induced by riding at all intensities above recovery level. Even hard mostly anaerobic focused training sessions will have some positive impact to aerobic abilities (hence why things like "Tabata" type training have been shown to have a positive impact to aerobic capabilities).

It's more the nature and rate that adaptations occur that varies by relative intensity.


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## PhatTalc (Jul 21, 2004)

Woof the dog said:


> VO2max is basically limited by 'supply' rather than demand - so effectively how well your heart pumps blood.
> 
> dog


In well trained athletes, this is probably true. Untrained people have no way of using all of the oxygen supplied by the blood. The low intensity training produces lots of adaptations, with the net result that much more energy production, more oxygen consumption.
Consider that VO2 Max heartrate may be higher when running than when cycling - I think this shows that demand is just as important as supply. But, I'm not really an expert, so I could have it all wrong.


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## prs77 (Dec 13, 2004)

*Low Intensity*

I could be wrong on this, but I thought the point of low end intensity (base miles) was to increase the mitochondrial density of the muscles. If you've got more mitochondria, then you can produce more ATP and go faster using the same amount of oxygen.


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## Woof the dog (Jan 28, 2004)

exactly. but it is fair to say that vo2max is limited by heart's stroke volume, which is improved by training too, in addition to your muscles being more efficient/adapted. 

So to improve your heart's ability to pump more blood 'at the limit of your air intake', wouldn't one want to do VO2max intervals rather than a large aerobic base? How does aerobic base training improve maximal stroke volume? Is it the same principle that applies to skeletal muscle regarding the aerobic base? Is there such evidence? Wouldn't one think that your heart, which is always beating at 60-100+ bpm ALREADY have good aerobic base?

woof


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