# Shimano Ultegra R8000 drivetrain missed the Boat...



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

should have a clutch rear derailleur option.


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## jason124 (Jul 25, 2006)

Isn't SHADOW Shimano's nomenclature for clutched rear derailleur? Which from what I have read, the R8000 does implement?


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

The Shadow design is several things. In the case of Ultegra 8000, it just means its closer to the frame, and thus less likely to be damaged in a tip over. The RD8000 is not clutched. However, if you really really really want a clutched derailleur, you are welcome to put a Dura Ace unit on there. I think it's probably overkill for most road usage though.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

"plus" is the clutch and really helps with a limp chain under sprinting conditions when you abruptly stop pedaling and the cassette momentum tries to throw your chain off the big ring, mainly when in the smallest cog.


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## jason124 (Jul 25, 2006)

factory feel said:


> "plus" is the clutch and really helps with a limp chain under sprinting conditions when you abruptly stop pedaling and the cassette momentum tries to throw your chain off the big ring, mainly when in the smallest cog.


Ah yes, the plus means clutch, I stand corrected.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> The Shadow design is several things. In the case of Ultegra 8000, it just means its closer to the frame, and thus less likely to be damaged in a tip over. The RD8000 is not clutched. However, if you really really really want a clutched derailleur, you are welcome to put a Dura Ace unit on there. I think it's probably overkill for most road usage though.




Dura-Ace does not have a clutch, never has.

Shadow only refers to the design, keeping it much closer to the frame, tucked in and away. Shadow Plus adds a clutch to that design.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I guess I misunderstood. I Thought I saw a Shimano produced video that indicated the Dura Ace derailleurs had a clutch, but I didn't realize what the "Plus" designation meant.

Mea Culpa


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> I guess I misunderstood. I Thought I saw a Shimano produced video that indicated the Dura Ace derailleurs had a clutch, but I didn't realize what the "Plus" designation meant.
> 
> Mea Culpa



Shimano lately has had branding problems.

Seriously. Many of these brand/tech-terms must mean something more transparent to the reader in Japanese. WTF does "semi-synchro" shift mean? No one understands in english unless you write a 3 paragraph book-report on it.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> "plus" is the clutch and really helps with a limp chain under sprinting conditions when you abruptly stop pedaling and the cassette momentum tries to throw your chain off the big ring, mainly when in the smallest cog.


If you are having these problems, your drivetrain isn't set up right. You may want to adjust your derailleurs and limit screws correctly.


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## Pisgah2000 (Nov 24, 2015)

Lombard said:


> If you are having these problems, your drivetrain isn't set up right. You may want to adjust your derailleurs and limit screws correctly.


Yeah, that's not a thing that should happen with a well-tuned drivetrain. If a freehub has enough drag to pop off the chain while coasting, it needs some attention. 

Anyway, a clutch doesn't seem like it'd be needed on a road bike. On a CX or MTB that sees lumpy terrain, sure, there's noticeably less chain slap in otherwise low-tension ratios over rough ground. Plus, if the are people *****ing about lawyer tabs making wheel changes take too long, just wait until they have to flip the clutch lever to get the back wheel off (and then forget to re-engage it once it's back together)... throw in lining up a rotor and the thru-axle, and man, it's all over.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

^come on, you dont have lawyer tabs on the rear wheel...

Although clutches do seem to make gear changes a bit slower, I though it was just me and I was going crazy, but talking other people apparently it is.


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## Pisgah2000 (Nov 24, 2015)

mik_git said:


> ^come on, you dont have lawyer tabs on the rear wheel...
> 
> Although clutches do seem to make gear changes a bit slower, I though it was just me and I was going crazy, but talking other people apparently it is.


Right. I wasn't saying that there are lawyer tabs on the rear end, just that the clutch is one more thing for people to complain about. You know, it'll add about .4 seconds when it comes to removing the rear wheel.

I don't notice any change in shift performance unless I'm going to the lowest ratio (36/36) on one of my bikes. Going into the lowest 34/34 on the other is fine. Both are XT/XTR 1x10s. On the 36t, it's a little draggy with the clutch on while the bike is in the stand, but I don't think I've ever actually used the 36t while riding. Again, it's over really rough terrain at high speed/low chain tension where the clutch does anything. It's also of some benefit on a 1x (even tension, less likely to fall off), but a narrow/wide ring makes a lot more difference. That's not likely going to be an issue on a road bike.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

sorry forgot the smile face in there...
It does increase the wheel in/out time when you forget that it exists and you're like why...the...hell... won't the damn wheel come out!? Oh...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> If you are having these problems, your drivetrain isn't set up right. You may want to adjust your derailleurs and limit screws correctly.


It's when you start running large cog cassettes is when a clutch is helpful. I assure you it's not an issue of set up.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Dura Ace 9100 missed the boat too. Still can't multi-shift like Chorus/Record/Super Record? Crazy.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Deleted.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> It's when you start running large cog cassettes is when a clutch is helpful. I assure you it's not an issue of set up.


How large a cassette are you using on your road set up?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> How large a cassette are you using on your road set up?


one bike I am running an 11-40.

when hard pedaling downhill in the big - small combo and letting off the pedaling abruptly, the cassette momentum wants to
keep the cassette rolling forward and thus lets the chain dip way down and sling around.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> one bike I am running an 11-40.
> 
> when hard pedaling downhill in the big - small combo and letting off the pedaling abruptly, the cassette momentum wants to
> keep the cassette rolling forward and thus lets the chain dip way down and sling around.


Ultegra is not designed to be used with an 11-40T. Aren't you the one who swore up and down in another thread that this setup "worked". So apparently it doesn't, or at least not very well.

Are you using a Wolf Tooth? Even with the Wolf Tooth, you can only go up to an 11-36T. Without it, it will only work well with an 11-32T.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Ultegra is not designed to be used with an 11-40T. Aren't you the one who swore up and down in another thread that this setup "worked". So apparently it doesn't, or at least not very well.
> 
> Are you using a Wolf Tooth? Even with the Wolf Tooth, you can only go up to an 11-36T. Without it, it will only work well with an 11-32T.


the 11-40 bike I am now using a tanpan with an m8000 xt derailleur.

works very well with the clutch.

I had previously tried it with a 5800 105 derailleur with a road link and a long cage from another derailleur installed and it worked fantastic, except for being in the big small combo on sprints and abruptly stop pedaling. That's when the chain would flail all over the place.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Are you using a Wolf Tooth? Even with the Wolf Tooth, you can only go up to an 11-36T. Without it, it will only work well with an 11-32T.


with Wolf tooth Roadlink I use 42T XT with Ultegra der with ease and no issues. And I am sure it could accomodate more teeth cogs if I wanted.

I suppose it also depends on your frame's hanger length. Nice to see the new Ultegra officially fits a 33T cog now .. which means can probably squeeze a 36t or 40 maybe without a Roadlink (well we will see once folks try it)

good to hear of the experience with clutch type XT derailleur FF. useful info


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> the 11-40 bike I am now using a tanpan with an m8000 xt derailleur.
> 
> works very well with the clutch.
> 
> I had previously tried it with a 5800 105 derailleur with a road link and a long cage from another derailleur installed and it worked fantastic, except for being in the big small combo on sprints and abruptly stop pedaling. That's when the chain would flail all over the place.


The XT derailleur not only has a longer cage (total chain wrap capacity) than the longest (mid-cage) Shimano road derailleurs, but the geometry of the derailleur is different as well.

So this is why even with the long mountain bike cage, the road derailleur will have problems. A clutch will not change this.

If the XT works, no reason to change it.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

factory feel said:


> one bike I am running an 11-40.
> 
> when hard pedaling downhill in the big - small combo and letting off the pedaling abruptly, the cassette momentum wants to
> keep the cassette rolling forward and thus lets the chain dip way down and sling around.


Why the hell would you be "hard pedaling downhill" on the 40t? Or, are you saying you're in the 11t and big ring and the momentum of that 40t will sling the chain? Either way, this is a ridiculously unrealistic scenario to be planning a drivetrain around.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

BCSaltchucker said:


> with Wolf tooth Roadlink I use 42T XT with Ultegra with ease and no issues. And I am sure it could accomodate more teeth cogs if I wanted.
> 
> I suppose it also depends on your frame's hanger length. Nice to see the new Ultegra officially fits a 33T cog now .. which means can probably squeeze a 36t or 40 maybe without a Roadlink (well we will see once folks try it)
> 
> *good to hear of the experience with clutch type XT derailleur FF. useful info*


thanks man, yeah so far it's working out great!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

OldZaskar said:


> Why the hell would you be "hard pedaling downhill" on the 40t? Or, are you saying you're in the 11t and big ring and the momentum of that 40t will sling the chain? Either way, this is a ridiculously unrealistic scenario to be planning a drivetrain around.


actually, I planned my drive train around the 40 tooth cassette cog for long steep climbs, the resulting chain slap coming back down the hill was an undesireable side effect and my remedy was changing to a clutch style derailleur and the woolftooth TanPan device.

so far it's working brilliantly!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

my first attempt with the 40t cassette with a long cage on the 105 derailleur. Worked beautifully except in the big/small combo when letting off the pedaling quickly then the chain slapped badly...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

my second attempt to run the 40t, now with a long cage xt derailleur and the tanpan. works good so far. the clutch helps a lot with chain slap.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> my second attempt to run the 40t, now with a long cage xt derailleur and the tanpan. works good so far. the clutch helps a lot with chain slap.
> View attachment 319379




Note the difference in cage length and derailleur geometry. Even with a clutch, the 105 would not have worked well.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Note the difference in cage length and derailleur geometry. Even with a clutch, the 105 would not have worked well.


that particular pic may have been before I swapped the cage with a longer one.

it really did shift nicely. note; the only issue I had was in the 11 tooth, the other cogs seemed to pull enough tension to eleminate the harsh chain slap.
I removed a link from the chain but almost went big big when I was tired and woulda ripped off my derailleur.

here is a pic of the 105 that definitely has the longer cage..


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

There are certainly use cases for a clutched derailluer on a road bike, however, probably not enough to warrant adding the feature to the U-8000 system (or Dura Ace for that matter). For those rare situations where someone might actually *need* a clutch (like yours), there are other solutions out there (like yours), including a Di2 setup with an XT rear derailluer.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Migen21 said:


> There are certainly use cases for a clutched derailluer on a road bike, however, probably not enough to warrant adding the feature to the U-8000 system (or Dura Ace for that matter). For those rare situations where someone might actually *need* a clutch (like yours), there are other solutions out there (like yours), including a *Di2 setup with an XT rear derailluer.*


this is something I want to investigate for a bike i have with ultegra 10s di2.

I want a stronger spring for the derailler because I'm running an xt 11-36 cassette on it with the road link.

I haven't ridden it yet to see if chain slack will be an issue though.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Lombard said:


> The XT derailleur not only has a longer cage (total chain wrap capacity) than the longest (mid-cage) Shimano road derailleurs, but the geometry of the derailleur is different as well.
> 
> So this is why even with the long mountain bike cage, the road derailleur will have problems. A clutch will not change this.
> 
> If the XT works, no reason to change it.


The shadow design now on DA and Ultegra is more than just the inward position. The second design feature of this is that the guide jockey wheel has more consistent spacing to the cogs across the range of the cassette vs. road designs.

So the geometry advantage of the XT is now also on r9100 and r8000.

But if the clutch is what you want, the XT is basically a clutched r8000 now right?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

MMsRepBike said:


> The shadow design now on DA and Ultegra is more than just the inward position. The second design feature of this is that the guide jockey wheel has more consistent spacing to the cogs across the range of the cassette vs. road designs.
> 
> So the geometry advantage of the XT is now also on r9100 and r8000.
> 
> *But if the clutch is what you want, the XT is basically a clutched r8000 now right?*



hmmmm....not sure the pull ratios are the same.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

factory feel said:


> hmmmm....not sure the pull ratios are the same.


On one of shimano's tech videos they said they are. The only caveat they mentioned regarding backwards compatibility was, as MMs said, you should match the new front mech to the new front crank for optimal front shifting.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

AKAIK, you can't mix 11-speed road shifters with mountain rear derailleurs in mechanical (Di2 is ok). Different pull ratios.
https://www.cxmagazine.com/shimano-xtr-m9000-11-speed-road-compatible-questions

That's why the Tapan (shown above) is needed/useful.
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/derailleur-optimization/products/tanpan


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> hmmmm....not sure the pull ratios are the same.


Let's see:

Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their mountain groupos when they went to 10-speed.

Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their road groupos when they went to 11-speed.

You are using an XT (mountain) rear derailleur and 105 (road) shifters and they shift correctly. Right?

It appears to me they are compatible, unless pull ratios were changed again with the 8000/9100.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Let's see:
> 
> Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their mountain groupos when they went to 10-speed.
> 
> Shimano changed the shifter pull ratios of their road groupos when they went to 11-speed.


Just because they changed does not mean they changed to be the same. It is possible, but not what happened in this instance.



Lombard said:


> *You are using an XT (mountain) rear derailleur and 105 (road) shifters and they shift correctly. Right?*
> 
> It appears to me they are compatible, unless pull ratios were changed again with the 8000/9100.


You missed the most important part from his post that proves your assumption wrong.

"my second attempt to run the 40t, now with a long cage xt derailleur *and the tanpan*. works good so far. the clutch helps a lot with chain slap." (Look at his pic and see the Tapan attached to the derailleur where the cable enters)

The Tapan is needed to correct for the difference in the pull ratios. See my link above in post #35.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Chader09 said:


> The Tapan is needed to correct for the difference in the pull ratios. See my link above in post #35.


Ahhh, so that's what the Tanpan is for. I stand corrected!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Ahhh, so that's what the Tanpan is for. I stand corrected!


exactly.


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## jason124 (Jul 25, 2006)

IIRC, R9100 series Di2 is no longer compatible with M9000 Di2. Which means R8000 may not be compatible with the new XT Di2.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

This whole thing is like complaining an Aero frame missed the boat by not having clearance for 40mm tires and rack mounts.

If your ability and/or terrain doesn't allow you to use a regular road racing set up you bought the wrong thing or need to live with jerry-rigging.

Do you expect them to redesign what's designed for road racing so 1% can use a 40 cog while probably making the other 99% unhappy?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> This whole thing is like complaining an Aero frame missed the boat by not having clearance for 40mm tires and rack mounts.
> 
> If your ability and/or terrain doesn't allow you to use a regular road racing set up you bought the wrong thing or need to live with jerry-rigging.
> 
> Do you expect them to redesign what's designed for road racing so 1% can use a 40 cog while probably making the other 99% unhappy?



So what are you supposed to buy if you want 11 speed and brifters and lower-range gearing exactly. Do tell. Oh wait...Shimano ceased selling products that did. So their "road racing set-up" is now the only game in town. Same for Campag.


"Gravel" is a segment taking off (again) because there are millions of miles of MMR unmaintained roads in the USA and elsewhere. And Shimano doesn't sell a product that serves it.


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## Chader09 (Jun 10, 2014)

It's not like we are expecting an entire group. All we need is a clutch-equipped rear der that works with their road shifters.

One that has a wide range like the new R8000 or even closer to the M8000 could be nice. 36t to 40t max seems reasonable.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Chader09 said:


> It's not like we are expecting an entire group. All we need is a clutch-equipped rear der. One that has a wide range like the new R8000 or even closer to the M8000 could be nice. 36t to 40t max seems reasonable.



Or a lower-geared crankset. Shimano voluntarily killed the triple with 11speed, and suddenly expects everyone to get by on a 34T min LOL.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Marc said:


> So what are you supposed to buy if you want 11 speed and brifters and lower-range gearing exactly. Do tell. Oh wait...Shimano ceased selling products that did. So their "road racing set-up" is now the only game in town. Same for Campag.
> 
> 
> "Gravel" is a segment taking off (again) because there are millions of miles of MMR unmaintained roads in the USA and elsewhere. And Shimano doesn't sell a product that serves it.


Get Sram rival, a smaller crank or jerry-rig (like I said) Shimano. yes, gravel riding is taking off and everyone doing it seems to be doing just fine so I don't know why Ultegra off the shelf not being suited for it would be a big deal. Don't run Ultegra stock then.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Shimano and others want to eliminate the triples but failed to recognize that a large segment of their consumers (yes includes roadies) need lower gears for extreme or lengthy hills. Currently the only mod that makes sense if you own 6800 stuff is changing the standard 50/34 compact to FSA's 46/30.. Its the same ole stuff, they fail to recognize that the new design does not fit all!!!


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

n2deep said:


> Shimano and others want to eliminate the triples but failed to recognize that a large segment of their consumers (yes includes roadies) need lower gears for extreme or lengthy hills. Currently the only mod that makes sense if you own 6800 stuff is changing the standard 50/34 compact to FSA's 46/30.. Its the same ole stuff, they fail to recognize that the new design does not fit all!!!


One other option,, some bike stores will install triples on new bikes.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

If there is market demand, someone (shimano or otherwise) will fill it. 

FSA (and probably others) offer a line of 'adventure' cranksets that can be used to augment gearing.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

n2deep said:


> One other option,, some bike stores will install triples on new bikes.


What 11 speed road group supports a triple? None.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Your correct, 11sp will not work in the front/triple,, you have to go old school,, like I said i's mix and match..


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

For those interested, the 11 speed mtb. And road cassettes share the same cog spacing distances. 

The TanPan is needed because the 11 speed mtb and road derailleurs do not share the same pull ratios. 

Therefor, if you desire a clutch or "plus" type derailleur a TanPan solves that issue.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

On a 10 speed bike I have I am running an 11-36 xt cassette. I had it set up with a 9 speed mtb non-clutched rear derailleur. It worked great. 

In spite of that and being happy with the TanPan on the 11 speed bike, I decided to again use the TanPan so I could run a 10 speed clutch derailleur. 

I wanted the ability to control chain slap. 


On other bikes I am running 11-23's and 11-28's and loose Chains are not a problem. The bigger heavier cassettes seem to be an issue for me. 

I do have yet another bike set up with a Woolf tooth road link. It is a 10 speed ultegra di2 system. So far on a couple rides chain slap doesn't seem to be an issue. 

Just to reiterate, the issue only affected me on fast sprints when I abruptly stop pedaling and only when in the 11 cog and 50 tooth chainring. Mostly when descending hard on the pedals then abruptly stopping cranks before a corner.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Well well well..

Whaddya know..


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> Well well well..
> 
> Whaddya know..


I don't get WTF they were thinking keeping this hidden passed the 2018 model unveiling.

I LOL a bit at pro bikes showcasing Shimano's R8000 and everything else latest and greatest....but still use RD hangers and not direct-mount.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Marc said:


> I don't get WTF they were thinking keeping this hidden passed the 2018 model unveiling.
> 
> I LOL a bit at pro bikes showcasing Shimano's R8000 and everything else latest and greatest..*..but still use RD hangers and not direct-mount.*


Because a derailleur hanger is a sacrificial item indended to save the frame if the derailleur is twisted. From what I've seen, only budget bikes are direct mount.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Lombard said:


> Because a derailleur hanger is a sacrificial item indended to save the frame if the derailleur is twisted. *From what I've seen, only budget bikes are direct mount.*


Ugh. Nope...Here's some learnings about Shimano DM:

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/technologies/component/details/direct-mount-rear-derailleur 

https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/03/0...mount-rear-derailleurs-coming-tech-breakdown/

There's a reason why in the R8000 you see a removable-link in the RD. That link is to accommodate DM framesets....not to accommodate installing Ultegra Di2 on budget bikes.

I installed DM on my gravel bike AAMOF:

https://www.bikeforums.net/cyclocro...n-shimano-direct-mount-rd-vs-hanger-pics.html

Old school RD hangers were ill-defined WRT placement/geometry. DM is very specific WRT geometry and machining, is stiffer, and IMHO shifts better.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Lombard said:


> Because a derailleur hanger is a sacrificial item indended to save the frame if the derailleur is twisted. From what I've seen, only budget bikes are direct mount.


 I'm pretty sure you'd be wrong.

As far as I know, the first production bike with a direct mount RD was the BMC SLR=01 Team Machine.

Hardly a 'budget bike'.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Migen21 said:


> I'm pretty sure you'd be wrong.
> 
> As far as I know, the first production bike with a direct mount RD was the BMC SLR=01 Team Machine.
> 
> Hardly a 'budget bike'.


what a nasty cable bend,,,,bleh


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Marc said:


> Ugh. Nope...Here's some learnings about Shimano DM:
> 
> https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/technologies/component/details/direct-mount-rear-derailleur
> 
> ...


OK, so it looks like the term "direct mount" is a misnomer. From what I can see, there is still a separate piece between the derailler and bike frame.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Migen21 said:


> Well well well..
> 
> Whaddya know..


wondering if it would work on 10sp Di2 set up I have?

probably not but it would be nice if it did.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

I guess this fits a need out there somewhere - personally I haven't had an issue with keeping the chain on the rings on my gravel bike even on the super rough crazy B-Road descents. (knock on wood).


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Will be interesting to see how the clutch perform compared to their mtb clutch. I was a little disappointed with their mtb clutch mechanism in that it gives a lot of friction when you're near the big-big combo. Resistance was so bad that it made shifting very rough, and you could definitely feel the resistance in the pedal stroke.

I wonder if for this deraileur if the clutch spring tension is reduced or if spring tension can be adjusted (rather than just ON/OFF)? And wonder if it's adjustable on the fly with a button? If I have to stop the bike to turn the clutch ON/OFF, I think it's deal killer for me because in that case I'd just leave it off (based on my experience with their mtb clutch) and thus pointless to have it.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

Jay Strongbow said:


> This whole thing is like complaining an Aero frame missed the boat by not having clearance for 40mm tires and rack mounts.
> 
> If your ability and/or terrain doesn't allow you to use a regular road racing set up you bought the wrong thing or need to live with jerry-rigging.
> 
> Do you expect them to redesign what's designed for road racing so 1% can use a 40 cog while probably making the other 99% unhappy?


Shimano has mostly learned from their mistakes over the years. Virtually all serious mountain bikers used aftermarket brake calipers in the early years (until they got serious and came up with V-brakes). They seemed unafraid that they might make the 99% of rim brake users unhappy when the invested in disc technology.

Shimano has since then led the market in bicycle brake technology. Their entry into the disc brake market had nothing to do with racing and everything to do with the demands of the recreational market. In fact, school is still not out on whether road racing will come to wholehearted acceptance of discs and I'm not convinced that Shimano cares all that much.

I assume you realize that, while the road racing market is insignificant in size, the belief is that the exposure it creates drives the recreational market? Consider that that belief may be erroneous--except in the margin. 

For those of us who can no longer produce 250 watts for an hour or so, the gearing suitable for professional racing falls short for aging but serious recreational riders who remain commited to riding in the mountains. 11/28 cogsettes may fall short for boomers on 7000' days when a portion of the climbing exceeds 12%. 

The good news is that Shimano will likely make correction earlier than the others. It was the failure of campy to get their act together on discs that took me back to Shimano. I'm betting that many other older climbers made the same transition (it was the leadership in 11 speed development that took me to campy in the first place).

In the end, it is a good idea to accept that a rather large portion of the market is driven by demands that fall outside of yours--or mine, for that matter.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Srode said:


> I guess this fits a need out there somewhere - personally I haven't had an issue with keeping the chain on the rings on my gravel bike even on the super rough crazy B-Road descents. (knock on wood).


I find it’s helpful when coming down a bumpy hill in your big small gear combo. Keeps the chain from bouncing over the outside of the big ring. 

Especially when you are running a very large cassette cog which in turn tends to allow the chain to swoop down onto the chain stay during high speed downhills during which rider pedals fast then halts pedaling abruptly and that big cog don’t like to stop spinning due to its mass compared to say a 25 tooth cog. That can cause massive chain slack and bad stuff can follow. 

Maybe you don’t run these types of setups or do these types of rides so for you it is inconsequential but for me I look forward to it becoming available.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

factory feel said:


> I find it’s helpful when coming down a bumpy hill in your big small gear combo. Keeps the chain from bouncing over the outside of the big ring.
> 
> Especially when you are running a very large cassette cog which in turn tends to allow the chain to swoop down onto the chain stay during high speed downhills during which rider pedals fast then halts pedaling abruptly and that big cog don’t like to stop spinning due to its mass compared to say a 25 tooth cog. That can cause massive chain slack and bad stuff can follow.
> 
> Maybe you don’t run these types of setups or do these types of rides so for you it is inconsequential but for me I look forward to it becoming available.


I do ride an 11/32 cassette and compact crank on the gravel bike, but probably don't go from pedaling fast to stopped on rough descents I guess which makes sense as a situation the extra tension could help.


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## tfinator (Nov 4, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Will be interesting to see how the clutch perform compared to their mtb clutch. I was a little disappointed with their mtb clutch mechanism in that it gives a lot of friction when you're near the big-big combo. Resistance was so bad that it made shifting very rough, and you could definitely feel the resistance in the pedal stroke.
> 
> I wonder if for this deraileur if the clutch spring tension is reduced or if spring tension can be adjusted (rather than just ON/OFF)? And wonder if it's adjustable on the fly with a button? If I have to stop the bike to turn the clutch ON/OFF, I think it's deal killer for me because in that case I'd just leave it off (based on my experience with their mtb clutch) and thus pointless to have it.


The outer on/off is just to help for wheel changes.

The clutch is adjustable, just take if the face plate, and make it a bit looser. Lots of YouTube videos to reference.

Yours is just too tight if it creates noticable drag.

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## bubble (May 19, 2007)

tfinator said:


> Yours is just too tight if it creates noticable drag.


An excessively short chain will do this too. With road bikes being 2x the problem shouldn't appear unless you're cross-chaining with a short chain.

I have a clutch RD on my road bike and it's invisible aside from slightly firmer shifts.


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## tfinator (Nov 4, 2009)

bubble said:


> An excessively short chain will do this too. With road bikes being 2x the problem shouldn't appear unless you're cross-chaining with a short chain.
> 
> I have a clutch RD on my road bike and it's invisible aside from slightly firmer shifts.


Right, as he blamed the clutch and that's what the thread is about, I assumed he had an adequate chain length.

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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

tfinator said:


> The clutch is adjustable, just take if the face plate, and make it a bit looser. Lots of YouTube videos to reference.


the newer models are adjustable without removing the cover plate.


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## tfinator (Nov 4, 2009)

factory feel said:


> the newer models are adjustable without removing the cover plate.


Even better

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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

tfinator said:


> The outer on/off is just to help for wheel changes.
> 
> The clutch is adjustable, just take if the face plate, and make it a bit looser. Lots of YouTube videos to reference.
> 
> ...


ah! will try your suggestion
It also doesn't help that road bikes have shorter chainstays than mtb, which makes cross-chaining to have even more friction.

After trying your suggestion to loosen the clutch tension to the loose possible setting, I find that the tension is still a bit high for road use when the switch is fully set to ON. Of course I could just turn the switch to "halfway" between ON and OFF position for medium tension setting, but I reckon this is now how Shimano wants us to use the switch?


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## bubble (May 19, 2007)

tfinator said:


> Right, as he blamed the clutch and that's what the thread is about, I assumed he had an adequate chain length.


I understand your thinking, i just disagree with going straight to blaming the clutch. The clutch is initially calibrated by shimano and they're pretty invisible aside from shifting (<.5w penalty, iirc).

I think the clutch is making a different problem more apparent, and that it isn't the clutch itself that is the problem. Short chain was just the obvious explanation. Not enough B-tension is another possibility, or having the chainring too far outboard. Loosening the clutch is the last thing i'd try since it's unlikely that it's improperly calibrated.

Good luck sorting it out aclinjury


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