# Scandium Frames - Safe and reliable material?



## mcoplea

More and more manufactures are coming out with high-end scandium frames. I think I get the why - light, cheap (compared to carbon fiber or ti) and it offers a smoother ride than Al. However, I have seen 4 different scandium cross and MTB frames break out here in AZ and it concerns me.

I was wondering if others are seeing failures around the country? What do you think of the ride quality?

Thanks!


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## roseyscot

my scandium salsa had some paint issues but it rode just great for a season +


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## NextTime

*More info*

Not that it's dispositive of anything, but can you provide the name/make/manufacturer of the frames? Also, any idea as to how old the frames were, and the circumstances under which they "broke"?


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## mcoplea

All were newer bikes (6 months old or less). Three of the breaks were in the downtube about 2-3"" below the headtube. I am not sure where the last one broke. To my knowledge, none of the frames were in a crash. I am not wanting to throw any manufactures "under the bus". I am just wondering if others are seeing a higher failure rate out there on scandium frames.


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## J-K

roseyscot said:


> my scandium salsa had some paint issues but it rode just great for a season +


Same here, apart from the paint issues (only self inflicted paint issues). Abused it for 2 racing seasons and still fine.


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## Dajianshan

Hmmmm! What did the manufacturers say and do?

I have one and I love it. It has been more durable that I expected.


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## orfa

I have a scandium mt bike and it has worked fine for 3 seasons. I took a big spill on it 2 years ago and put a big dent on the top tube. Been riding it hard since with no issues - so far.

Scandium does dent much easier than AL, so that would be my only concern with the cross bike and more potential lay downs. I doubt they have a greater tendency to break, unless the frames are poorly built.


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## wim

mcoplea said:


> More and more manufactures are coming out with high-end scandium frames. I think I get the why - light, cheap (compared to carbon fiber or ti) and it offers a smoother ride than Al.


So-called "scandium" frames are aluminum alloy frames. The aluminum alloy used in their tubing has about 2% of scandium added to it to increase strength slightly. This allows a frame tube to be made slightly thinner, therefore weigh slightly less than a tube made from an aluminum alloy not containing scandium. Not knocking "scandium" frames, but they really are nothing more and nothing less than aluminum alloy frames.


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## mcoplea

wim said:


> So-called "scandium" frames are aluminum alloy frames. The aluminum alloy used in their tubing has about 2% of scandium added to it to increase strength slightly. This allows a frame tube to be made slightly thinner, therefore weigh slightly less than a tube made from an aluminum alloy not containing scandium. Not knocking "scandium" frames, but they really are nothing more and nothing less than aluminum alloy frames.


Good point. The more reasearch that I do the more that I find that not all scandium tubes are the same - http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files_unprotected/r&d_files/R&D-03%20Scandium.pdf


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## Dajianshan

I have heard the difference is in how companies prepare and weld the frames. Some companies are better and more experienced than others. Some can probably make a "scandium" frame that is as strong or stronger than other materials.


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## Coolhand

The Salsa stuff seems pretty reliable.


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## Dajianshan

> The Salsa stuff seems pretty reliable.


That's what I was alluding to. I just can't think of many other companies that do scandium Mtn and cross bikes, so I was afraid the OP was talking about Salsa. 

Salsa does lots of scandium work and seem to have a very good track record. They offer a 5 year frame warrantee with scandium frames. Not bad.


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## pretender

It's not (just) the material, but what size tubes are used, how good the joints are, etc.


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## rkj__

wim said:


> This allows a frame tube to be made slightly thinner, therefore weigh slightly less than a tube made from an aluminum alloy not containing scandium.


Hence, if the tube thickness remained the same, the Scandium frame would likely be stronger than an aluminum one, assuming they were both good quality (assembly/design).

So, "scandium" is a perfectly good frame material, if used appropriately. But, like any other material, if you try to make it too thin, too light, or design/assemble it poorly, the durability will suffer.


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## Doctor Who

You're not throwing the manufacturer under the bus if you post about it here and what you attest happened to the bikes is legitimate and true. I understand your reluctance, though. Be assured you're not committing any sort of libel.

We gain nothing by trying to guess who the manufacturer is, and correspondingly, how well they manufacture frames using scandium. We have everything to gain from knowing if certain bikes are more susceptible to certain issues, and accordingly, this gives others who may have had similar problems with their bikes a chance to chime in.

Anyway, I have a scandium Voodoo Limba and it's still trucking along, despite all the abuse I heap upon it. A small ding in the top tube from a pile-up before a barrier doesn't concern me, but makes me think that the tubing is pretty thin to be so light and stiff. 

I'm doing custom steel next, for what that's worth.


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## Dajianshan

I've had some hard tumbles, but nary a scratch. Are you aware of any correspondence with the manufacturer and how were these cases handled? Any long term scandium bikes out there? Anyone put several... 5 plus... years on one? All frames will fail at some point under riding stress... but are these cases premature, beyond the expected frame life? 

Oh.. and I am racing Doctor Who for number of posts.


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## TedH

Dajianshan said:


> That's what I was alluding to. I just can't think of many other companies that do scandium Mtn and cross bikes, so I was afraid the OP was talking about Salsa.
> 
> Salsa does lots of scandium work and seem to have a very good track record. They offer a 5 year frame warrantee with scandium frames. Not bad.


Redline and Rock Lobster have scandium models. I'm very happy with my Redline, have laid it down hard this year, but all in all, through rain, snow, rocks and all, the bike has been very good for 3 seasons now (other than some chainsuck occasionally on the chainstay/BB when the chain gets gunked).


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## PeanutButterBreath

Coolhand said:


> The Salsa stuff seems pretty reliable.


Overall, they have a good track record considering how many scandium frames they produce.

That said, I have personally seen a Las Cruces broken in half. Both the TT and DT sheared a few inches away from the HT. The incident occurred during a CX race, reportedly upon hitting a pothole. I have no idea how the frame was treated prior.

We've all see pictures of broken CF frames, Ti frames and that steel IF fork that collapsed. And of course, 99.9999%+ of frames of any material never fail.

Scandium is usually used for high-end racing frames. As a consequence, these frames are built to minimize weight, not maximize toughness or durability. Like CF components, they are safe and reliable but require vigilance and deep enough pockets to replace them if their integrity is in doubt.


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## wim

rkj__ said:


> _Hence, if the tube thickness remained the same, the Scandium frame would likely be stronger than an aluminum one, assuming they were both good quality (assembly/design_).QUOTE]
> 
> Correct. Unfortunately, strength numbers don't sell bicycle frames, but weight numbers do. So sometimes what the engineer giveth by adding scandium, the marketing department taketh away by thinning down the product.


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## fuzz-tone

I wondered why Ridley dropped the Supercross from the lineup, which was a Scandium frame with carbon seat stays. Their current range only offers either full carbon or full aluminum frames. I just figured it was a cost cutting measure to focus more on full carbon?


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## eyefloater

I think the price points were too similar between that and the X-Fire. Also, with the frame having to be built up a bit where the carbon joins with the aluminum any weight benefit is usually a wash. Dubious performance benefits as well. 

That being said, I wish the Crosswind would have gone all scandium with a Python fork. That would have been ideal for me.


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## mcoplea

Doctor Who said:


> You're not throwing the manufacturer under the bus if you post about it here and what you attest happened to the bikes is legitimate and true. I understand your reluctance, though. Be assured you're not committing any sort of libel.
> 
> We gain nothing by trying to guess who the manufacturer is, and correspondingly, how well they manufacture frames using scandium. We have everything to gain from knowing if certain bikes are more susceptible to certain issues, and accordingly, this gives others who may have had similar problems with their bikes a chance to chime in.
> 
> Anyway, I have a scandium Voodoo Limba and it's still trucking along, despite all the abuse I heap upon it. A small ding in the top tube from a pile-up before a barrier doesn't concern me, but makes me think that the tubing is pretty thin to be so light and stiff.
> 
> I'm doing custom steel next, for what that's worth.


I understand and I am not trying to play a guessing game. The intent of my OP was to see if others around the country are seeing a higher than normal rate of failures on scandium frames in general. 

One of the failures was on your model frame. The rider was moving at a pretty good pace and hit a rutted out section of the course when the frame cracked. The rider weighs about 145 lbs.


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## Dajianshan

Salsa has this to say on their website: 

http://www.salsacycles.com/materials.html
http://www.salsacycles.com/designer-notes.html#thinking



> In the bicycle world, scandium refers to frame tubing made from an aluminum alloy that includes the element scandium. In most cases, the tubing base is a high-strength, 7000-series aluminum alloy. Scandium allows a stronger, non-weldable base aluminum alloy to be welded. Previously, these and similar base alloys could only be made into a frame by bonding them together using high-strength adhesives and cast or machined lugs-almost like high-tech tinker toys.
> 
> Scandium opens up new opportunities for frame engineers. In the past, aluminum tubing required larger diameter tubes to achieve the strength necessary to support riding. The larger diameter tubes resulted in stiff ride characteristics, which are fine for time trials but less than ideal for century rides. With scandium tubing, frame engineers are able to use smaller diameter tubes, thinner cross sections, and shaped tubes to tune the ride characteristics of each frame while using less material. This results in comfortable, efficient and light frames.
> 
> Scandium frame tubing also has increased fatigue life and improved failure modes when compared to traditional aluminum frame tubing. For many of the same metallurgical reasons that scandium allows non-weldable alloys to be welded, scandium adds to the fatigue life and durability of frames.
> 
> This technology and these benefits do not come free and easy. Raw scandium is not as abundant as many other alloying elements and is difficult to extract from raw ore. Production of scandium alloys is relatively new and is being done on a much smaller scale than other aluminum alloys. Welding scandium requires the use of new technologies and different materials than other aluminums. Proper heat treatment is critical to frame strength and integrity, which prohibits many aluminum frame manufacturers from being able to work with scandium. Most importantly, knowledge of the frame building material and proper design are still vitally necessary.


It may be that the frames you are talking about were improperly treated or welded. 

I don't think the frames are any weaker than aluminum, despite the thinness.


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## Dajianshan

Salsa has this to say on their website: 

http://www.salsacycles.com/materials.html
http://www.salsacycles.com/designer-notes.html#thinking



> In the bicycle world, scandium refers to frame tubing made from an aluminum alloy that includes the element scandium. In most cases, the tubing base is a high-strength, 7000-series aluminum alloy. Scandium allows a stronger, non-weldable base aluminum alloy to be welded. Previously, these and similar base alloys could only be made into a frame by bonding them together using high-strength adhesives and cast or machined lugs-almost like high-tech tinker toys.
> 
> Scandium opens up new opportunities for frame engineers. In the past, aluminum tubing required larger diameter tubes to achieve the strength necessary to support riding. The larger diameter tubes resulted in stiff ride characteristics, which are fine for time trials but less than ideal for century rides. With scandium tubing, frame engineers are able to use smaller diameter tubes, thinner cross sections, and shaped tubes to tune the ride characteristics of each frame while using less material. This results in comfortable, efficient and light frames.
> 
> Scandium frame tubing also has increased fatigue life and improved failure modes when compared to traditional aluminum frame tubing. For many of the same metallurgical reasons that scandium allows non-weldable alloys to be welded, scandium adds to the fatigue life and durability of frames.
> 
> This technology and these benefits do not come free and easy. Raw scandium is not as abundant as many other alloying elements and is difficult to extract from raw ore. Production of scandium alloys is relatively new and is being done on a much smaller scale than other aluminum alloys. Welding scandium requires the use of new technologies and different materials than other aluminums. Proper heat treatment is critical to frame strength and integrity, which prohibits many aluminum frame manufacturers from being able to work with scandium. Most importantly, knowledge of the frame building material and proper design are still vitally necessary.


It may be that the frames you are talking about were improperly treated or welded. 

I don't think the frames are any weaker than aluminum, despite the thinness.


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## PeanutButterBreath

Notice that the only downsides they mention are those that create the impression that Sc frames are more expensive to produce. :skep:

Scandium frames are still aluminum frames and thin tubes are still thin tubes. As *wim* pointed out, they are not using the material to make tougher, more durable frames, they are using the material to make lighter frames. I would not assume any more or less durability than a non-Sc alloyed frame.


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## suspectdevice

By and large, Scandium frames are most certainly less durable than 6061 or straight-up 7005 frames. The Kinesis built Scandium stuff (Salsa, Vodoo, Redline) is a different alloy than the Easton tubed frames... 
The Salsa frames are overbuilt enough for the less than desirable fatigue properties to not matter. In fact, with all of the Kinesis frames, the "Scandium" frames are usually the same weight as a well designed 6061 frame.

It's a marketing element more than anything, and any bike with Scandium mentioned in the tubeset is going to be made out of 7000 series alloy which weaker, nastier to produce, and more susceptible to corrosion than a 6061 aluminum frame...


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## atpjunkie

*I had a Scandium Bianchi X-Concept*

light, good ride, and I'm a Clyde
it's only down point (to me) was flex (which I attributed to it being made light for a 61 cm frame)


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## kbiker3111

Off the top of my head, scandium is stronger but more brittle and has a lower fatigue life. None of this should matter if properly built. 

Remember when scandium first came out ten years ago and Easton marketed it as 'taken from soviet submarienes'? Maybe I should power my bike with a nuclear reactor too...


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## mcoplea

kbiker3111 said:


> Off the top of my head, scandium is stronger but more brittle and has a lower fatigue life. None of this should matter if properly built.
> 
> Remember when scandium first came out ten years ago and Easton marketed it as 'taken from soviet submarienes'? Maybe I should power my bike with a nuclear reactor too...


According to Easton..

http://www.eastonbike.com/downloadable_files_unprotected/r&d_files/R&D-03%20Scandium.pdf

Where Scandium Shines
The critical advantage that Easton’s proprietary Scandium alloys (Sc7000) bring to the party is the ability to minimize recrystallization after welding. Heat causes the grain size of aluminum to increase. Scandium helps to control this. Smaller grains mean smaller grain boundaries which in turn helps keep cracks from forming at weld joints.

Starting with a Stronger Alloy
Other manufacturers are beginning to offer their versions of Scandium alloy frame tubes. _Simply adding Scandium to existing alloys is an expensive marketing ploy._

Easton wasn’t content to start with typical 6000 or 7000 series alloys. Instead, Easton’s R&D department started with a proprietary alloy that had been in development for four years. With its unique chemistry this alloy exhibited exceptional strength — 68 ksi. With the addition of Scandium, the new alloy’s weldability was dramatically
enhanced. Sc7000 was born.

Finally Easton had realized the potential of Scandium. Higher strength combined with the lower density of aluminum allowed for lighter, smaller diameter tubing. Better compliancy
was realized without sacrificing fatigue life. 

Lighter, more lively frames. Less harshness and better feel. Easton’s Sc7000 has now become the choice of cyclists worldwide.


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## dead flag blues

I had a Sc Stumpjumper, and now have a Sc Redline Conquest Team. Both fine bikes. Very light and really good bang for the buck. 

If I wanted something bombproof/foolproof, I'd have a titanium bike made instead.


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## elmar schrauth

i have a scandium cyclocrossframe ,thats 1150 gramm


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## haikalah

Ok, you have a light scandium frame. But some folks can turn a light frame into a pig with the build.




Elmar, I am jesting. I suspect (ok I know) that you have a rather light bike.


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## thighmaster

I have a scandium Bianchi. The frame without fork weighs less than my road bike. It's been 3 seasons and well beaten as my spings bike. It's been great.


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## Dajianshan

My frame is the same weight as Elmar's and I turned mine into an 18.4 Lb bike... on purpose.


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## PeanutButterBreath

Dajianshan said:


> My frame is the same weight as Elmar's and I turned mine into an 18.4 Lb bike... on purpose.


Not bad with discs. On par with my 1x9 with Neo Retros, 1550g wheels and tubulars, in fact.


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## elmar schrauth

haikalah said:


> Ok, you have a light scandium frame. But some folks can turn a light frame into a pig with the build.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elmar, I am jesting. I suspect (ok I know) that you have a rather light bike.



now i am riding a kuota frame with the same weight 
bik







e is now 6,05 kilo


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## elmar schrauth

Dajianshan said:


> My frame is the same weight as Elmar's and I turned mine into an 18.4 Lb bike... on purpose.


do you have a picture .???
there are only 3 or 4 frame builder in taiwan ,which use scandum tubes.
so all of them loojk similar .
the frame on the picture was tested by a labatory ,which said that the frame is stiff and lasting .


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## Dajianshan

Here you go. 

The frame is a 50cm, which takes almost 1/2lb off the frame weight from the advertised weight.

I took some weight savings with a titanium post and DT Swiss wheel build. 

Different tires make a difference though. 

I know some of the guys who work at the factories that produce the scandium frames. 
Performance Manufacturing Group, Caribou, Kinesis and...er..the other... I live in central Taichung, so when I go to my builder I bump into a few of them on occasion. According to some sources, some companies order tubes and other companies order bikes. The tubes are selected and welded as standard frames, painted and branded. Others require tuning the assembly to meet the customer's specific requirements for tube shaping, thickness, welding and design. This process is time consuming, but it saves the Taiwanese company the R&D costs. The latter are the better frames and still produced in Taiwan and not China.


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