# Wheel Closer to one Stay



## Sundog (Sep 25, 2013)

2013 Orbea Onix

When I went from the stock rims (19mm i think) with a 25 mm tire to a 24 mm clincher and the same tire it became obvious to me that the wheel was sitting noticeably closer to the drive side chain stay than the NDS. The wheel seems perfectly centered between the seat stays and the brakes. 

The wheel has been checked to be true and in dish. 

I want to keep running a 25mm rear tire - but there is evidence that some minor rubbing occurs on the DS stay. I can't say that I actually notice the rubbing - it just bugs me to see stuff that I would think should be centered - not being centered. If I had to hazard a guess - I'd say that there's probably twice the clearance on the NDS side. 

I've been looking at other bikes and not seeing the same phenomena. 

Common or not?


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Talk to your dealer. 
I know someone who had this exact problem with a Cannondale. Chainstays we're not centered. They replaced his frame under warranty.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

tlg said:


> Talk to your dealer.
> I know someone who had this exact problem with a Cannondale. Chainstays we're not centered. They replaced his frame under warranty.


That was my thought. There are only so many things it could be. If the wheel is true and centered on the axle (properly dished) but it is closer to one side of the frame, the problem is likely the frame.

Can you put some numbers on the discrepancy? You said "noticeably" and "twice the clearance," but can you say how many millimeters closer it is compared to the other side? If you measure, try to use the rim rather than the tire as the reference point.


----------



## Sundog (Sep 25, 2013)

I just got off the phone with Orbea USA. They are requesting pictures. 

I'll reserve further discussion until I go down the road with those fellows - which is what I probably should have done at first glance. 

Thanks for the input - and I'll let you all know how it ends.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

JCavilia said:


> Can you put some numbers on the discrepancy? You said "noticeably" and "twice the clearance," but can you say how many millimeters closer it is compared to the other side? If you measure, try to use the rim rather than the tire as the reference point.


Should be pretty easy to measure. I'd take the tire off and just use the rim so there's a nice edge to measure from. 
Then flip the wheel and put it in backwards. If the wheel is centered on the axle, the measurements should be the same.


----------



## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

If it is the frame, there are a couple of places where things could go wrong.

- everything is square, its just that one stay may be thicker/bigger than the other (if this is a carbon bike - lay up or mould issue). This could actually be a "feature" - beefing up the drive side chain stay. I dunno - not an Obea expert.

- the chainstay lengths are unequal (use a string or a tape measure to get the distance from the center of the bb to the front edge of where the axle sits in the drop out)

- the rear triangle/seat and chain stays are pushed over to one side. Doesn't seem to be the case - you say that the wheel appears to sit square between the stays and centered in the brakes.


----------



## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

Gregory Taylor said:


> If it is the frame, there are a couple of places where things could go wrong.
> 
> - everything is square, its just that one stay may be thicker/bigger than the other (if this is a carbon bike - lay up or mould issue). This could actually be a "feature" - beefing up the drive side chain stay. I dunno - not an Obea expert.
> 
> ...


You've been spending too much time brazing frames together!!!

With the old horizontal dropouts, it would be a simple adjustment. Campagnolo even had little adjustment screws to get the wheel straight. With vertical dropouts, it would be much harder to get the wheel in the wrong place, assuming it is seated right, so I'm going with a frame problem. 

Flipping the wheel backwards as suggested would give you a good comparison. 

I've got a Trek with a broken dropout. You might take the derailleur hanger off, and make sure the dropouts fit snugly around the axle, and don't have any cracks in them.


----------



## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

CliffordK said:


> You've been spending too much time brazing frames together!!!


It does tend to leave one's perspective a bit "skewed" or off center...harharhar....

Regarding the possibiity of the rear triangle being pushed over. Does the rear wheel line up nice behind the seat tube? Standing directly behind or in front of the bike, can you visually line it up --- head tube, seat tube, wheel? This is another situation where some string he helpful - see if the head tube/seat tube/rear wheel actually do line up behnd each other.


----------



## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Frame or could be the dropouts not level too .. My bike has that too but it's only about 1mm.. Probably within frame spec


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Since the wheel appears centered at the seatstays/brake bridge, then the fault is with the chainstays/dropouts.

I've never seen a frame with differences in chainstay WIDTH, left vs. right.

Either the chainstays vary in length or one of the dropouts are not positioned correctly.

Even minor differences (say, 1mm) in chainstay length at the dropout will show a magnified error at the rim.

Let us know how Orbea addresses your problem.


----------



## .je (Aug 25, 2012)

TBH I noticed the chain stays on my bike are closer on the NDS than the DS. I know I dished the wheel to within less than 0.25mm total difference. With a 25mm tire there seem to be something like 3mm clearance difference one side to another. The factory-built wheels look even worse, if they in fact are. Since I know the wheels are OK, and there's no contact with the tire, I decided to stop looking directly at it, and feel better now.

OTOH, I do look at every bike I follow on the paceline (which is nearly all of them, I guess) and see maybe more than not the carbon frames to be 'asymmetric', just as yours or more commonly mine are (never the aluminium or steel ones). I'll keep my eye out to see if it's on more frames.

- = -

I would have to see a video of frame assembly with a camera >directly pointing at< where the chain stays attach to the bottom bracket, and are wrapped with a mesh connecting layer, and then where are placed in the mold with bladders in them (if that's how they're held), or if they're held on with shaped-to-the-mold resin. I say that because it could be tricky to control the form around that curve (I'm only saying that because I don't know for certain). Could anyone show us how this load-bearing part of a frame is constructed? I am interested to know.


----------



## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Peter P. said:


> Since the wheel appears centered at the seatstays/brake bridge, then the fault is with the chainstays/dropouts.
> 
> I've never seen a frame with differences in chainstay WIDTH, left vs. right.


Plenty of bikes with asymetric chainstays out there, especially with carbon fiber. And, in a lot of cases, it is the NDS that is thicker because the frame designer has more room to play with. Look at the PEZ cycling review of the new Lemond carbon bike - there is a good shot of the stays/bottom bracket that capture this. NDS is thicker, the DS is taller. This is supposed to help combat twist when really honking on it. 

I'm not saying that is what the OP is seeing, just that it is something to take into consideration before going into full panties-in-wad mode. The fact that ORBEA didn't point this out to him indirectly suggests that they don't have asymetric stays.


----------



## Sundog (Sep 25, 2013)

Gregory Taylor said:


> P The fact that ORBEA didn't point this out to him indirectly suggests that they don't have asymetric stays.


The fellow that I spoke to was just a phone answerer. He asked me to send pix to the warranty manager. I've not _yet_ had a real technical conversation with Orbea.


----------



## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Gregory Taylor said:


> Plenty of bikes with asymetric chainstays out there, especially with carbon fiber. And, in a lot of cases, it is the NDS that is thicker because the frame designer has more room to play with. Look at the PEZ cycling review of the new Lemond carbon bike - there is a good shot of the stays/bottom bracket that capture this. NDS is thicker, the DS is taller. This is supposed to help combat twist when really honking on it.
> 
> I'm not saying that is what the OP is seeing, just that it is something to take into consideration before going into full panties-in-wad mode. The fact that ORBEA didn't point this out to him indirectly suggests that they don't have asymetric stays.


If the chainstays are asymmetric then I would expect the outside surfaces of each to be a different distance from the tire. I would always expect an equal gap between the tire and each inside surface of the chainstays. Show me photos of a production bike with an asymmetric inside gap and I'll believe they're deliberately building them that way.


----------



## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Just for a sanity check are you sure the wheel is snugly in the dropouts? On some of my bikes in order to get the wheel properly centered I have generally have to put pressure on the saddle while the bike is upright.


----------



## Gregory Taylor (Mar 29, 2002)

Peter P. said:


> If the chainstays are asymmetric then I would expect the outside surfaces of each to be a different distance from the tire. I would always expect an equal gap between the tire and each inside surface of the chainstays. Show me photos of a production bike with an asymmetric inside gap and I'll believe they're deliberately building them that way.


The only reason that I went out and did a little Google search is because this is an interesting question. 

Here's what some Googling came up with.

The red one is the new LeMond Triomphe - pic is from the Pez road test. I'd presume that they used a good wheel. And while doing this strictly by eye is second best to actually measuring, boy that sure looks offset to me.

The other two are a Fisher and ... I forget. Might be Cervelo. The picture of the Fisher is from Bicyling Magazine. Again, eyeballing it is no substitute for actually measuring the clearance with a good wheel, but it sure looks like to me that the wheel ends up with more clearance on one side. However, the offset appearance could also be a function of the BB being offset, which is apparently common with the new bikes. The Cervelo has it. Ditto some Treks. 

All to say that, bottom line, you are probably right, it would be optimum to build a bike with equal tire clearance on both sides. I'm no expert on carbon fiber bikes, but it sure looks like there are some being built out there where they cheat on the tire clearance on one side. It probably fits fine with a 23c tire.


----------



## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

you could take a couple of center lines at the bottom bracket and line up a straight edge to see where it intersects the tire as a quick check.


----------



## Sundog (Sep 25, 2013)

Udate. Orbea replaced my frame under warranty. Since they no longer have any Onix frames - they sent me a 2013 Orca B. The wheel sits nice and centred and I have room to run the 25mm Conti GP tire that I chose. 

They sent me the new frame the same day they got the Onix from me. I sent pictures and spoke with the warranty rep on the phone for a very short time - before he told me to send the Onix back. I supposed that the dropouts were off. He said that a mm in the back could cause the 2.3mm up front that I was seeing.

Though it is difficult to get pix that accurately represent either situation - here are some that I sent to Orbea:





This is how much more pace there was on the NDS stay side between the stay and the tire - than there was on the DS:



Here is the wheel in the Orca frame (again - hard to represent - but it looks good in person):






Can't say enough good things about the fellows at Orbea-USA. 

Going to finish building the bike tomorrow. I need a new FD (braze on vs the Onix clamp) and crankset (BB30 vs GXP) - I've been meaning to upgrade those things anyway.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Sundog said:


> Udate. Orbea replaced my frame under warranty. Since they no longer have any Onix frames - they sent me a 2013 Orca B. The wheel sits nice and centred and I have room to run the 25mm Conti GP tire that I chose.


Congrats. Glad to hear it worked out for you.


----------



## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

Orbea warranty replaced my 2006 that was an aluminum triangle with carbon seat and chain stays. It cracked at the weld by the bottom bracket. The LBS sent in photos and they approved it immediately. They replaced it with the full carbon Orca Bronze since they didn't make any comparable aluminum-carbon frames any more. ( They were actually both comparable in list price, with the new Orca bikes maybe 10% more expensive than my 2006. Carbon has gotten a lot cheaper since 2006! )

That 2006 frame was also slightly off center at the chain stays. ( I never thought about a warranty claim for it.) Since it had aluminum dropouts, I just *filed one dropout to recenter the wheel*. I took it slow, using a small rounded jeweler file. Just a slight change at the dropout will move the rim quite a lot. The amount filed off was very minor, maybe half a millimeter. I probably wouldn't try this with carbon dropouts.


----------



## Sundog (Sep 25, 2013)

Here's a link to some photos of the re-build on the warranty frame - in case there is interest:

Orca Photos by SunDog3478 | Photobucket

I will post a comparative review - Orca vs Onix, somewhere - once I have a little more time on the new set up.


----------



## steinercat (Apr 7, 2015)

I have the same condition on my Orbea Avant. It is a CF bike, and the LBS told me that some CF bikes may have assymetric chainstays.

I'm going to get in touch with Orbea and see what they have to say.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

steinercat said:


> I have the same condition on my Orbea Avant. It is a CF bike, and the LBS told me that some CF bikes may have assymetric chainstays.
> 
> I'm going to get in touch with Orbea and see what they have to say.


All you have to do is look at it to comfirm whether they're asymmetric or not. Orbea will ask you if the rear rim is centered on the hub, whether the wheel has adequate tension, how much you weigh...they'll want to know all the details before they can give you a good answer.


----------

