# Tyler Postive



## bigpinkt

Rumors are swirling that Tyler tested positive again at the ToC. He DNS today in Spain blaming a 3 week old cold. If it is true, so far I have heard from people that would know that it is, it would be a lifetime ban. 

I wonder if whatever it was that he was taking was what made him look like Angus from AC/DC?


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## 3rensho

Welcome back, 

Hope this one's just a rumor. I'd love to say, "no one's that stupid"


but someone always is...huh?


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## smbrum

WOW surely not. if youve been caught you have to assume eyes are on you a bit harder than the rest of the field. then again maybe he's closer to the end of his career and thinks what the heck, if I get caught and they ban me for life who cares I'll be done soon anyway. But if they dont catch me, think of what I can do. If true its a shame. I saw something where someone was comparing Cycling to Pro Wrestling. How true that has become...I may still watch for entertainment but it sure is hard to believe any of it is real.


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## Pablo

Did Tyler test positive, or what it his twin? I get them mixed up.


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## bigpinkt

It is sad what he tested positive for. As much as I may despise the charade he put on for 4 years I am sure his life has been a wreck. 

Supposedly it is for anti depressants. The truth will set you free, carrying that lie around for years is a huge burden.


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## Old_school_nik

*Anti depressants are on the banned list?*

Anti depressants are on the banned list? How the hell does having more serotonin boost performance? I am I reading your post correctly?

Nik


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## bigpinkt

Old_school_nik said:


> Anti depressants are on the banned list? How the hell does having more serotonin boost performance? I am I reading your post correctly?
> 
> Nik


Good questions, I have no idea. So far it is just a rumor that I have heard from several people. Anti depressants are VERY common in pro cycling but I do not know how they could trigger a positive test.


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## Dwayne Barry

bigpinkt said:


> Good questions, I have no idea. So far it is just a rumor that I have heard from several people. Anti depressants are VERY common in pro cycling but I do not know how they could trigger a positive test.


I heard years ago that use of stuff like Prozac was nearly ubiquitous in the Euro peloton. Not sure if those kinds of drugs were even banned at the time (I don't know if they're now, even). I was told that it's to help with motivation to train?


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## Rolando

When you think about how great the mental aspect is to racing, especially climbing, I can see where "feeling good" would help to keep you from cracking. 

It is too bad that people are spreading rumours without the facts, by the way. Tyler served his sentence....Let him earn a living.


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## lookrider

Rolando said:


> When you think about how great the mental aspect is to racing, especially climbing, I can see where "feeling good" would help to keep you from cracking.
> 
> It is too bad that people are spreading rumours without the facts, by the way. Tyler served his sentence....Let him earn a living.


Interesting. I always thought anti depressants made one sluggish. Prozac also can lower sex drive so Wellbutrin is sometimes prescribed alternatively from what I understand. And staleness is a sign of overtraining. Overrriding that doesn't seem like such a good idea.


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## Bocephus Jones II

bigpinkt said:


> It is sad what he tested positive for. As much as I may despise the charade he put on for 4 years I am sure his life has been a wreck.
> 
> Supposedly it is for anti depressants. The truth will set you free, carrying that lie around for years is a huge burden.


I don't know him well, but the times I've met him he seems like a really decent, nice guy. That's about all I will say about Tyler despite his apparent shortcomings. Personally I wouldn't consider an antidepressant to be a performance enhancing drug.


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## Dwayne Barry

lookrider said:


> And staleness is a sign of overtraining.


I've never taken them or talked to anyone who trained a lot and took them, but the reason I was told for taking them was basically to avoid that staleness.

I know physiologically it has been a very difficult proposition to demonstrate an "overtrained" state, so maybe it is largely in your head?


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## mtbbmet

If he did, and it's what you say it is, then he has a TUE.
This rumour has been floating around for almost 48 hours now. There is no way that the story would have not gone mainstream by now if it were true.


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## lookrider

Dwayne Barry said:


> I've never taken them or talked to anyone who trained a lot and took them, but the reason I was told for taking them was basically to avoid that staleness.
> 
> I know physiologically it has been a very difficult proposition to demonstrate an "overtrained" state, so maybe it is largely in your head?


Well, if you're stale, then mentally shot/ie. depressed, it's probably best to back off and that feeling _is_ a physiological response. The next stage is a depressed immune system which leads to susceptibility to respiratory infections which also is another indication of overtraining. Try staying in bed for 12 hours if you're generally well rested, it's tough. If you're depressed or you've been training extremely hard and are exhausted it's not that difficult.

It seems to be very hard to get the idea across that the most important part of training is your body's reaction to stress, and that your body overcompensates/recovers best when you are sleeping.

Laypeople think that you always have to be doing something; training for hours upon hours, when in fact, all that training is counterproductive.

People don't understand that the least amount of work to reach the desired goal is ideal, and that anything more, is wasted effort at best, and counterproductive at worst. That may be quite a lot of work for something like the Tour, but as LeMond has been protesting, one probably needs a lot less, but harder, work than most people assume is required.

This was the whole idea behind Nautilus that Arthur Jones advanced.


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## lookrider

mtbbmet said:


> If he did, and it's what you say it is, then he has a TUE.
> This rumour has been floating around for almost 48 hours now. There is no way that the story would have not gone mainstream by now if it were true.


Why do you assume he has a TUE? If he went to a Psychiatrist and told him he felt depressed and was also training 500 miles a week, it seems any responsible doctor would do their best to see if the patient was suicidal. If they weren't a danger to themselves the doctor would probably tell him to go home to bed, lay off the training for a week or two, and come back after that time and let me know how you feel. Then we'll decide on a course of treatment. I wonder if any responsible MD would encourage a person to continue with their Pro Cycling career at that point. 

Prescribing SSRI's to override psychological governors seems to border on medical malpractice to me.

Just sayin.


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## jupiterrn

Old_school_nik said:


> Anti depressants are on the banned list? How the hell does having more serotonin boost performance? I am I reading your post correctly?
> 
> Nik


Depends on what they consider an "antidepressant". Medications that treat ADHD such as Vyvanse are amphetamines and would probably get kicked into the controlled substance list. Again, not truly an "antidepressant" but to the layman could be seen as such. He better have a note from teacher if it is true.


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## MG537

lookrider said:


> Why do you assume he has a TUE? If he went to a Psychiatrist and told him he felt depressed and was also training 500 miles a week, it seems any responsible doctor would do their best to see if the patient was suicidal. If they weren't a danger to themselves the doctor would probably tell him to go home to bed, lay off the training for a week or two, and come back after that time and let me know how you feel. Then we'll decide on a course of treatment. I wonder if any responsible MD would encourage a person to continue with their Pro Cycling career at that point.
> 
> Prescribing SSRI's to override psychological governors seems to border on medical malpractice to me.
> 
> Just sayin.


I don't know about Tyler's finances, but is it possible that he can not just go home and rest? If the team tells his to be on the bike racing then that's what he's going to have to do. Unless he's rich he may not have any other option.


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## lookrider

*I see that side....*



MG537 said:


> I don't know about Tyler's finances, but is it possible that he can not just go home and rest? If the team tells his to be on the bike racing then that's what he's going to have to do. Unless he's rich he may not have any other option.


I've recently dealt with two spinal surgeons. I'm sure they're on the ball with the nuts and bolts with anatomy and physiology, but day to day financial stuff and philosophy when it doesn't apply to them personally, seems to be beyond them.

One of these guys told me, we'll do the epidural steroid injections and get you back to work. If you break down after that, surgery is an option. He was concerned that I "wasn't motivated to go back to work."

Well, when you have a$$holes you're working for blaming you for your injuries, no, you're not motivated to go back to work.

The other guy, told me that I should quit, which wasn't bad, but he couldn't understand that I had financial obligations and that I felt that I had to fight to not be used up physically and thrown away.

Back to Tyler, you do realize that there have been a fair number of suicides among pro cyclists and former pros? So any doctor who would prescribe medication when rest is indicated is bordering on malpractice. The problem with suicide is that people don't see any options when in fact they are there. One thing that would help Tyler tremendously would be to fess up. It would help mentally and a lot of his financial issues would be solved by writing a tell all about his years as a professional cyclist.

It's also sad that some cycling coaches and trainers are in the dark ages when it comes to training and recovery.


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## Pablo

I need anti-depressants when it comes to pro cycling.


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## mohair_chair

So based on a rumor about Tyler testing positive for something unspecified, you have now reached the conclusion that Tyler is suicidal. Good work.


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## Henry Porter

lookrider said:


> I've recently dealt with two spinal surgeons. I'm sure they're on the ball with the nuts and bolts with anatomy and physiology, but day to day financial stuff and philosophy when it doesn't apply to them personally, seems to be beyond them.
> 
> One of these guys told me, we'll do the epidural steroid injections and get you back to work. If you break down after that, surgery is an option. He was concerned that I "wasn't motivated to go back to work."
> 
> Well, when you have a$$holes you're working for blaming you for your injuries, no, you're not motivated to go back to work.
> 
> The other guy, told me that I should quit, which wasn't bad, but he couldn't understand that I had financial obligations and that I felt that I had to fight to not be used up physically and thrown away.
> 
> Back to Tyler, you do realize that there have been a fair number of suicides among pro cyclists and former pros? So any doctor who would prescribe medication when rest is indicated is bordering on malpractice. The problem with suicide is that people don't see any options when in fact they are there. One thing that would help Tyler tremendously would be to fess up. It would help mentally and a lot of his financial issues would be solved by writing a tell all about his years as a professional cyclist.
> 
> It's also sad that some cycling coaches and trainers are in the dark ages when it comes to training and recovery.


So both doctors were right? Also how do you know that the time on the bike would be Tyler's problem* if this were true*? Calling out malpractice when none of these details are known is more than a bit harsh.


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## SwiftSolo

mohair_chair said:


> So based on a rumor about Tyler testing positive for something unspecified, you have now reached the conclusion that Tyler is suicidal. Good work.


I have a friend who knows a guy with a sister who saw a photo of Tyler racing and she said he looked like he was on EPO or something (she was 110% certain). 

They need to throw his sorry ass out!


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## iliveonnitro

mohair_chair said:


> So based on a rumor about Tyler testing positive for something unspecified, you have now reached the conclusion that Tyler is suicidal. Good work.


It's amazing what the internet can accomplish. If you have a cold, search the internet for your symptoms and just wait for "cancer" to pop up. It's really an amazing thing.


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## lookrider

Henry Porter said:


> So both doctors were right?


No. They were both jerkoffs. Their job is to sum up my medical status and provide medical options rather than make assumptions or give prejudiced opinions on what I should be doing based on $hit they know nothing about.

You're a binary thinker, eh? I know this is a touchy subject for you because of your ambitions, but when you become a doctor try listening and empathizing rather than always coming up with answers that you're confident in and then defending those answers.

I'll explain it simply and basically for you.

When you're injured, and it affects your income, there are many issues involved. I'm sorry I didn't write a novel to spell out the ramifications for you. Being a doctor isn't an assembly line. Maybe the system is set up that way, but try to understand the concerns of the patient without having the need to produce answers you don't have the depth of experience to concoct. Listening is a very important skill.

The first guy I saw *told* me, this is what we're going to do. It was complete bs. Then after he told me of the duct tape solution to my problem, his concern was that I didn't want to go back to work. What concern is it of his, what I want to do?

The second guy told me I could quit my job. Oh, thanks a$$hole, are you a lawyer, or my financial adviser? Thanks for the simple solution. I'll live under a bridge. He said this with no doubt, and then he proceeds to give me some philosophical advice. I told him very nicely to keep his concerns to my medical options and how workers compensation rules affect my ability to continue seeing him. Unfortunately I have to see him again soon to keep my claim open.



Henry Porter said:


> Also how do you know that the time on the bike would be Tyler's problem* if this were true*? Calling out malpractice when none of these details are known is more than a bit harsh.


I was speculating on how SSRI's could be construed to be performance enhancing as they are usually seen as dulling a persons physical capabilities. 

*If* they are used to override your psychological governors on physical stressors it wouldn't seem that a doctor prescribing them without addressing the rest of one's life situation in totality would be proper.

Don't overreact to silliness on these forums. The whole thing (these forums), doesn't amount to too much anyway.


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## lookrider

*You didn't know*



mohair_chair said:


> So based on a rumor about Tyler testing positive for something unspecified, you have now reached the conclusion that Tyler is suicidal. Good work.


based on conclusions reached on the RBR doping forum, Tyler's getting a lifetime ban, and being placed on suicide watch. 

News flash, this is just idle chatter here and no one who matters in these issues is paying attention.

Perspective is important....


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## mohair_chair

lookrider said:


> based on conclusions reached on the RBR doping forum, Tyler's getting a lifetime ban, and being placed on suicide watch.
> 
> News flash, this is just idle chatter here and no one who matters in these issues is paying attention.
> 
> Perspective is important....


So when I read a personal encounter from you with your doctors, that's just idle chatter and no one who matters in these issues is paying attention. Got it. Perspective.


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## lookrider

mohair_chair said:


> So when I read a personal encounter from you with your doctors, that's just idle chatter and no one who matters in these issues is paying attention. Got it. Perspective.


Well, if it's illuminating to you fine, if not, that's fine too.

I was addressing it as an analogy and to Henry Porter. He's free to dismiss my thoughts as you are too.

Whether someone is venting frustration, or any other expression of anything on these forums, what difference does it really make?

Back to the reason for this forum, it's pretty obvious to everyone, unless they are blinded by hero worship, that pro cycling is awash with drugs.

There was speculation here that TH tested positive for an anti depressant. While I haven't taken them myself, I was under the impression that those types of drugs would hamper performance more than enhance it, so why would this matter at all in relation to cycling.

Unless pro cyclist's are widely taking these types of drugs in order to circumvent feelings of fatigue and depression brought on by high training loads. That wouldn't seem to me to be proper use of these types of drugs when prescribed by a physician and attested to by a TUE.


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## tron

If his twin theory is to be believed, wouldnt he continuously test positive? Maybe he was telling the truth all along.


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## den bakker

tron said:


> If his twin theory is to be believed, wouldnt he continuously test positive? Maybe he was telling the truth all along.


he has only been tested twice in his whole career then? amazing.


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## mtbbmet

lookrider said:


> Why do you assume he has a TUE?


Why do you assume he tested positive?
Why do you assume it was for anti-depresents?
Why do you assume that he's suicidal?
Why do you assume that he's a danger to himself and that if he's not on meds that it borders on malpractice?

There have been MANY assumptions in this thread, mine was one of the more reasonable ones.
This whole thing is nothing more than rumour anyway. The guy has a cold and you have turned it into a suicide watch.


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## tron

den bakker said:


> he has only been tested twice in his whole career then? amazing.



apparently so. those are some crazy odds huh?


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## den bakker

tron said:


> apparently so. those are some crazy odds huh?


with more than 20 wins in his career... He should play the lottery for a living then.


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## Dwayne Barry

tron said:


> If his twin theory is to be believed, wouldnt he continuously test positive? Maybe he was telling the truth all along.


Yeah for homologous blood doping. Something tells me he isn't all that worried about getting popped for that again. Anymore than Landis thinks he's going to get nailed again for testosterone.


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## tron

den bakker said:


> with more than 20 wins in his career... He should play the lottery for a living then.


I will tell him.


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## lookrider

mtbbmet said:


> Why do you assume he tested positive?
> Why do you assume it was for anti-depresents?
> Why do you assume that he's suicidal?
> Why do you assume that he's a danger to himself and that if he's not on meds that it borders on malpractice?


Show me where I made any of these assumptions. Just about every statement I made about Hamilton or any doctors that might be treating him, I qualified. Also, I didn't start this thread.



mtbbmet said:


> There have been MANY assumptions in this thread, mine was one of the more reasonable ones.
> This whole thing is nothing more than rumour anyway. The guy has a cold and you have turned it into a suicide watch.


You need to work on the reading comprehension.

Also, this was what you wrote:



mtbbmet said:


> If he did, and it's what you say it is, then he has a TUE.


If he did this, *then he has a TUE.* That's an assumption. Go back and read what I wrote and you'll see I didn't assume anything, and was writing hypothetically.

Most people wouldn't think that ****** has any performance enhancing qualities for cycling. The same is true for anti depressants but according to a poster here, a lot of the European peloton is on them. I have no idea whether that is true or not, but if they are taking them to escape a depression brought on by otherwise unsustainable training loads, I would say that that is not an intended use of the drugs.

I would also think that if you go to a doctor and complain of a depression severe enough to necessitate the use of anti depressants, the doctor might inquire about whether you intend to do any harm to yourself. If, (see I qualified this) if the doctor did not make this inquiry I would think that maybe that's borderline malpractice if the patient subsequently kills himself.

You'll note that I used the word *if* liberally here.

You don't have to be too intelligent to figure this out.


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## 97G8tr

Ok, back on topic. Who gives a rat's ass whether Tyler is on SSRI's? Tons of ppl are. Big phuking deal.


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## bigpinkt

Rock Racing:

*Rock Racing is aware of the rumors regarding Tyler Hamilton. However, it is our policy not to comment on rumors or speculation*

You would think they would deny it if it wasn't true.


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## lookrider

97G8tr said:


> Ok, back on topic. Who gives a rat's ass whether Tyler is on SSRI's? Tons of ppl are. Big phuking deal.


Yeah, tons of people are on insulin and ****** too.

Cyclists have shown an ability to come up with novel uses of commonly prescribed drugs.


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## 97G8tr

lookrider said:


> Yeah, tons of people are on insulin and ****** too.
> 
> Cyclists have shown an ability to come up with novel uses of commonly prescribed drugs.


As someone who takes 10mg for anxiety, I can assure you that an inhibitor does NOTHING for your performance. Excess weight gain wouldn't help him either. Back on topic - anti-depressants. Don't comment if you don't know what you are talking about.:thumbsup: I bet I'd loose 10lbs in 2mos if I went off my medication. Anti-depressants limit your ability to hit your 'rev limiter'...they certainly have a performance DISADVANTAGE. If I went off mine, I'd be a better athlete - no doubt.

So, back on topic. Anti-depressants..NOT ****** or insulin, you are digressing to prove a far fetched point.


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## lookrider

*ok*



97G8tr said:


> As someone who takes 10mg for anxiety, I can assure you that an inhibitor does NOTHING for your performance. Excess weight gain wouldn't help him either. Back on topic - anti-depressants. Don't comment if you don't know what you are talking about.:thumbsup: I bet I'd loose 10lbs in 2mos if I went off my medication. Anti-depressants limit your ability to hit your 'rev limiter'...they certainly have a performance DISADVANTAGE. If I went off mine, I'd be a better athlete - no doubt.
> 
> So, back on topic. Anti-depressants..NOT ****** or insulin, you are digressing to prove a far fetched point.


If you read thru the thread you can see that I alluded to what you say above. 

Here is the complete quote from my first post on this thread.



lookrider said:


> Interesting. I always thought anti depressants made one sluggish. Prozac also can lower sex drive so Wellbutrin is sometimes prescribed alternatively from what I understand. And staleness is a sign of overtraining. Overrriding that doesn't seem like such a good idea.


 I thought these types of drugs hurt performance so I would see no reason they would be on any banned list. Dwayne Barry posted that many European pros are on these drugs and bigpinkt noted that many pros take them also, and because of this it was implied that there may be a performance benefit which is not known to the general public or most of the medical community.

It was posited that the perfomance benefit would be for the drugs to stem the mental fatigue that is brought on by very heavy training, because the brain was artificially lowering the amount of work that a person perceived their bodies could tolerate.

As for your assertion, that I don't know what I'm talking about and trying to prove a point. I wasn't the one who posted the thread as I had no idea before I read it here that any athletes would take these drugs for any reason other than their indicated use. I have family members and friends who take these types of drugs for depression and ritalin for ADHD, so I have a little knowledge but not wide knowledge. I am sensitive to the fact that people who are taking these things when they are indicated are provided a great deal of relief and I don't think it's anything to ridicule or diminish.

Having said that, during Operation Puerto it was alleged that Hamilton took drugs usually given to menopausal women in order to mask his use of steroids. When I saw the amount of stuff that these guys were alleged to take, I was pretty shocked. It's on par with the drug abuse of bodybuilders. When you're abusing stuff that has the potential to kill, and has killed a decent number of cyclists, bodybuilders, football players and other athletes, that's pretty warped IMHO.

I don't think it's a stretch here for people to think that Hamilton will ingest anything to gain an advantage, based on his past history.


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## bigpinkt

It appears the Anti-Depressant excuse is just something that some friends are using as an excuse for the positive, it is not what he tested for.


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## Don Duende

Whoa are you guys off topic. No further news as to the rumor. So, maybe it was just a rumor, that is, not fact. Furthermore, he recently has gone through a two year suspension, a divorce and his mother has cancer. Cut him some slack.

And yes, ****** is a PED.

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/health-keeping-it-up-20345


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## mohair_chair

bigpinkt said:


> Rock Racing:
> 
> *Rock Racing is aware of the rumors regarding Tyler Hamilton. However, it is our policy not to comment on rumors or speculation*
> 
> You would think they would deny it if it wasn't true.


So therefore, it must be true. Great detective work.


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## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> So therefore, it must be true. Great detective work.


you are welcome


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## function

mohair_chair said:


> So based on a rumor about Tyler testing positive for something unspecified, you have now reached the conclusion that Tyler is suicidal. Good work.


... Furthermore "fess'ing up" would alleviate his alleged suicidal condition.


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## lookrider

function said:


> ... Furthermore "fess'ing up" would alleviate his alleged suicidal condition.


Are you defending Tyler or his chimeral twin?

You got me, he's clean..


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## soup67

bigpinkt said:


> It appears the Anti-Depressant excuse is just something that some friends are using as an excuse for the positive, it is not what he tested for.


Where is this info coming from?


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## Bocephus Jones II

soup67 said:


> Where is this info coming from?


Agree...I see nothing when I do a search. Kinda nasty to spread an unsubstantiated rumor of this nature.


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## chuckice

This thread is garbage. Mods should delete it.


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## Old_school_nik

*Tyler is not scheduled to line up to defend RR's Redlands...*

not reading into anything here just another data point really. 

Nik


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## eyebob

*As always, "thanks" to Mohair*



mohair_chair said:


> So based on a rumor about Tyler testing positive for something unspecified, you have now reached the conclusion that Tyler is suicidal. Good work.


boy this is idiotic.....


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## ultimobici

Don Duende said:


> Whoa are you guys off topic. No further news as to the rumor. So, maybe it was just a rumor, that is, not fact. Furthermore, he recently has gone through a two year suspension, a divorce and his mother has cancer. Cut him some slack.
> 
> And yes, ****** is a PED.
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/health-keeping-it-up-20345


The only slack he is due is with regard to his mother's cancer. The rest pretty much is his own doing. Suck it up Tyler!


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## Mootsie

Now Velonews reports that TH is out of the Volta ao Alentejo. Hmmmmm.


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## 1stmh

ultimobici said:


> it up Tyler!


Maybe he took your advice?


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## Dwayne Barry

Mootsie said:


> Now Velonews reports that TH is out of the Volta ao Alentejo. Hmmmmm.


So now he's had brochitis for what? A month?

Unfortunate coincidence if he's got other issues keeping him from racing that just happen to coincide with the doping positive rumour.


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## Bocephus Jones II

Dwayne Barry said:


> So now he's had brochitis for what? A month?
> 
> Unfortunate coincidence if he's got other issues keeping him from racing that just happen to coincide with the doping positive rumour.


Where is the rumor coming from other than this thread? I haven't seen anything online about it. If someone has, can they post it here? Until then this seems almost libelous.


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## Dwayne Barry

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Where is the rumor coming from other than this thread? I haven't seen anything online about it. If someone has, can they post it here? Until then this seems almost libelous.


I guess it's not in this thread?

IIRC, it originated with a message sent out or posting on a blog by someone involved with Hincapie Sports Wear which I think is either a sponsor of Rock Racing or the ToC. It was removed within a day or two.

That's why it's not on any of the news sites. I wonder if it's coincidence that Velonews is now finding Hamilton's non-start newsworthy?

http://www.velonews.com/article/90094/hamilton-out-of-alentejo


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## zoikz

Don Duende said:


> Whoa are you guys off topic. No further news as to the rumor. So, maybe it was just a rumor, that is, not fact. Furthermore, he recently has gone through a two year suspension, a divorce and his mother has cancer. Cut him some slack.
> 
> And yes, ****** is a PED.
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/health-keeping-it-up-20345


Really does seem like a crazy rumor for now and the guys been through the ringer. I'd like to assume he is innocent. But if that dude did it again...no mercy.
I'm really interested in seeing what WADA does about ******. It's not on the banned substances list yet...but apparently they are keeping a close eye on it.
I'll bet a five cents it is on the banned list next year.
A lot of mountain climbers use it to decrease pulmonary artery pressures, and increase blood flow through the lungs, reduce chances they will get high altitude pulmonary edema. Actual lab data doesn't support the idea, unless you put them on a IV drip using super high doses. Then again a performance increase of 2-3% while barely measurable in the lab, means a hell of a lot to a pro.


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## mohair_chair

zoikz said:


> Then again a performance increase of 2-3% while barely measurable in the lab, means a hell of a lot to a pro.


So does preventing pulmonary edema.


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## lookrider

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Where is the rumor coming from other than this thread? I haven't seen anything online about it. If someone has, can they post it here? Until then this seems almost libelous.


I'd agree with you if full disclosure was TH's friend.

But he's woven a tangled web and made a nutty bed. 

Guys like him want to protest obscure technicalities while keeping everything else hidden.


Besides, it's obvious that all of this is speculation, and it's really not libel unless someone posts this stuff knowing it's false.


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## 1stmh

So it's been over a week and still no confirmation. Does this mean it is only a rumor?


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## SwiftSolo

1stmh said:


> So it's been over a week and still no confirmation. Does this mean it is only a rumor?


Get real mate,
If not for rumor, fabrication, and speculation, the dope forum would still be waiting for its' first post.


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## Old_school_nik

SwiftSolo said:


> Get real mate,
> If not for rumor, fabrication, and speculation, the dope forum would still be waiting for its' first post.



Right. Except for just a few inconsequential riders, caught doping in a few small, unimportant races here:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=167262


----------



## SwiftSolo

Old_school_nik said:


> Right. Except for just a few inconsequential riders, caught doping in a few small, unimportant races here:
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=167262


Since they accuse every person who's ever peddled a bicycle (unless their name is Greg), they're occasionally going to hit the jackpot. 

If you accuse every person on the planet of being a murderer, you'll be 100% correct in that no murderer will escape the wisdom of your accusations. It's identical to the wisdom of an infinite number of chimpanzees on an infinite number of keyboards.


----------



## rook

Um, about the page 1 rumor regarding the rumor about Tyler being on anti-depressents... I don't think anti-depressants are on the banned substances list. That's all I gotta say about that. Oh and I really don't think that they are going to do anything to help your performance.


----------



## lookrider

*It's the riders being accused.*



SwiftSolo said:


> Since they accuse every person who's ever peddled a bicycle (unless their name is Greg), they're occasionally going to hit the jackpot.


How many people work in the bicycle sales and parts industries total? Why would taking PED's help them sell their wares? Does this include the sellers on Ebay and other internet stores? 

It's not the people peddling cycling gear we're concerned with here. It's the people who are turning the pedals in competition.

I hope this clears things up for you.:lol: 

I understand why you are so confused.:idea:


----------



## ultimobici

lookrider said:


> How many people work in the bicycle sales and parts industries total? Why would taking PED's help them sell their wares? Does this include the sellers on Ebay and other internet stores?
> 
> It's not the people peddling cycling gear we're concerned with here. It's the people who are turning the pedals in competition.
> 
> I hope this clears things up for you.:lol:
> 
> I understand why you are so confused.:idea:


Genius!


----------



## bigpinkt

SwiftSolo said:


> Since they accuse every person who's ever peddled a bicycle (unless their name is Greg), they're occasionally going to hit the jackpot.
> 
> If you accuse every person on the planet of being a murderer, you'll be 100% correct in that no murderer will escape the wisdom of your accusations. It's identical to the wisdom of an infinite number of chimpanzees on an infinite number of keyboards.



Swiftsolo, king of the straw man trolls.


----------



## thebadger

I'm now hearing it's true. Why it's not coming out, I don't know but I wouldn't expect to ever see him again.


----------



## cyclejim

What is your source?


----------



## WalterJ

Well?


----------



## papisimo9807

I heard it is true myself today on a group ride. A friend of mine who is in the know and very well connected in the cycling community got an email from the Springs. 
He said Tyler is getting "Lawyered Up", but that his B sample is positive. This is forbidden to be written about by publications via court order due to privacy issues.
Just putting it out there.
I believe my friend.


----------



## 1stmh

Go read the explainer over at Velonews. Seemed like a timely question.

There might be something to this rumor after all...


----------



## gray8110

1stmh said:


> Go read the explainer over at Velonews. Seemed like a timely question.
> 
> There might be something to this rumor after all...


I'm not one to confirm the truthfulness of a rumor based on such things, but the article immediately made me think of the Hamilton rumors. The fact that Leogrande and Hamilton both happen to ride for the same team, and thus know how to keep this quiet while going through the legal process certainly adds more fuel to that speculative fire.


----------



## Mootsie

Maybe completely unrelated, but looks like someone is doing a "Landis" by selling autographed items of TH's possibly to raise funds. TH has got to be pretty poor these days after all the years of legal fees. He has a nice house in Boulder up on a cliff, but who knows what kind of equity he has left in it.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZstellacyclesQQhtZ-1


----------



## Old_school_nik

*Thanks for the Link to the "Explainer" column here it is:*

Link to the Explainer column that seems to be answering a question about Tyler from a reader on why we haven't heard anything:

http://www.velonews.com/article/90383

Nik


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

Old_school_nik said:


> Link to the Explainer column that seems to be answering a question about Tyler from a reader on why we haven't heard anything:
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/article/90383
> 
> Nik


Still think it's bad form to keep a rumor like this going with no proof other than some random internet forum poster's word.


----------



## Henry Porter

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Still think it's bad form to keep a rumor like this going with no proof other than some random internet forum poster's word.



Well, the mods kept up a thread in which the title says Jens positive in Flanders which is absolutely not true so you can't be too surprised.


----------



## Mootsie

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Still think it's bad form to keep a rumor like this going with no proof other than some random internet forum poster's word.


I agree, but we are not the only ones quilty of doing it. Google it and you'll find other postings. Its either internet viral or there's some truth to it.


----------



## Dwayne Barry

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Still think it's bad form to keep a rumor like this going with no proof other than some random internet forum poster's word.



The longer it goes without him starting a race...


----------



## Old_school_nik

It's not just any rider.. the guy is wearing the US Champion's jersey, he is former TDF stage winner, Olymic gold medalist, and had been receiving a lot of coverage this year in races including TOC etc... for a rider with those credentials to just stop racing and dissapear, especially when he was signed up for many races as the team leader - and there has been no real annoucement as to why - although technicaly i think the team said he had some kind of bronchitis... but couple this all with the fact that he has a proven history of doping.... and no, none of these reasons are a smoking gun but come on, if there is another reason the team should make a press release...


----------



## bigpinkt

Going to be able to say "I told you so" very soon


----------



## bigpinkt

I told you so
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?_r=2&ref=sports


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

bigpinkt said:


> I told you so
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?_r=2&ref=sports


At least we have something from a legit source to back it up now. I think it's all pretty sad.


----------



## WAZCO

bigpinkt said:


> I told you so
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?_r=2&ref=sports


Here's more detailed report http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=4075873

And yet he's still in denial. What a joke.

"Did I take it knowing it was on the banned list? Yes. Did I take it because it was performance-enhancing? Absolutely not."


----------



## DIRT BOY

bigpinkt said:


> I told you so
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?_r=2&ref=sports


Rules are rules, but this DHEA thing is SUCH a damn joke. 

ESPN's headlines reads positive for Steroids


----------



## gray8110

A little more detailed info on cyclingnews:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3


----------



## bigpinkt

Bocephus Jones II said:


> At least we have something from a legit source to back it up now. I think it's all pretty sad.


You saying I'm not legit?


----------



## DIRT BOY

WAZCO said:


> Here's more detailed report http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=4075873
> 
> And yet he's still in denial. What a joke.
> 
> "Did I take it knowing it was on the banned list? Yes. Did I take it because it was performance-enhancing? Absolutely not."


DHEA is NOT a PED in reality.


----------



## bigpinkt

WAZCO said:


> "Did I take it knowing it was on the banned list? Yes. Did I take it because it was performance-enhancing? Absolutely not."


He should have said "I am depressed because I have been living in a big lie for the last 4 years"

Guess there was some validity to the Anti-depression stuff.


----------



## mohair_chair

bigpinkt said:


> You saying I'm not legit?


Rumor has it.


----------



## BuenosAires

bigpinkt said:


> I told you so
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?_r=2&ref=sports


Congratulations. Would you like a cookie?


----------



## bigpinkt

Sounds like some people are bitter about being wrong....again.


----------



## Mootsie

*Tyler's Twin surfaces*

Its Moocher from Breaking Away!!!!!!!!


----------



## BikinCO

*Actually*



bigpinkt said:


> He should have said "I am nuts because I have been living in a big lie for the last 4 years"
> 
> Guess there was some validity to the Anti-depression stuff.



He was diagnosed int 2003 with depression.



> Dr. Charles Welch, at Mass General hospital in Boston diagnosed Hamilton with clinical depression in 2003. He was prescribed Celexa as an anti-depressant for the next six years.


It is sad and your gloating over breaking the news weeks ago is pathetic. But you must feel important now, huh?


----------



## 3rensho

too bad about Tyler. Hate to say it but after all of the BS, I still have always like him as a racer. Glad I got to see him at the TT for the Tour of Elk Grove last year.

Weird way to go out, that's for sure. 

Does this make Blake Caldwell the new National Road Champion? Or since this infraction was over the winter and not in the race does nothing change?


----------



## Dan Gerous

Can't say I'm too surprised but I found today's cyclingnews.com quotes from Rudy Pevenage pretty funny now:



> These days, Pevenage's Rock racing team also provokes some critical voices, as it is the home of many riders linked or allegedly linked to Operación Puerto. Still, the Belgian said that "most riders in the team never had anything to do with doping. The others - [Ivan] Gutierrez, *[Tyler] Hamilton* and [Francisco] Mancebo -* have suffered so much of their history that they will never touch doping again*. [Oscar] Sevilla now lives in Colombia at 3000 metres altitude, he has better blood levels than in the past."


Tyler makes Frank Vandenbroucke look pretty smart...


----------



## mohair_chair

bigpinkt said:


> Sounds like some people are bitter about being wrong....again.


Sounds like someone is way too smug after one of his many reported rumors actually turns out to be true. Even the sun shines....


----------



## bigpinkt

BikinCO said:


> He was diagnosed int 2003 with depression.
> It is sad and your gloating over breaking the news weeks ago is pathetic. But you must feel important now, huh?


Tyler is depressed because for years he has been caught in a giant lie of his own invention. His insane defense that was based on nothing but lies is THAT is what is pathetic. 

As usual the messenger is attacked and the message, that Tyler is a doper, liar, and a cheat, is ignored.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

bigpinkt said:


> Tyler is depressed because for years he has been caught in a giant lie of his own invention. His insane defense that was based on nothing but lies is THAT is what is pathetic.
> 
> As usual the messenger is attacked and the message, that Tyler is a doper, liar, and a cheat, is ignored.


<img src=https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1010/793369800_aba50d44b3.jpg>


----------



## soup67

*DHEA is a steroid, isn't it?*



DIRT BOY said:


> Rules are rules, but this DHEA thing is SUCH a damn joke.
> 
> ESPN's headlines reads positive for Steroids


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone


----------



## crit_specialist

Drug question: Isn't DHEA a garbage over the counter drug that doesn't do all that much?


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

soup67 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone


yes it is an anabolic though not very effective as a PED from what I read...

Wiki says:



> DHEA supplements are sometimes used as muscle-building or performance-enhancing drugs by athletes. However, a randomized placebo-controlled trial* found that DHEA supplementation had no effect on lean body mass, strength, or testosterone levels.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-11">[12]</sup>*





> Because DHEA is converted to androstenedione and then testosterone, it has two chances to aromatize into estrogen- estrone from androstenedione, and estradiol from testosterone. As such, *it is possible for increases in estrogen levels more than testosterone in men.*


----------



## Spunout

Except that DHEA doesn't work. Prohibited is prohibited, but you have to wonder about why manufacturers put stuff like this in over-the-counter products. 

Then again, cocaine doesn't require a prescription so that sinks my argument.


----------



## Bry03cobra

Sadly if he didn't have the past he does, maybe he would get a break. Sounds like a legit mistake. For whatever reason, his lies, the divorce or parent issues, he is depressed. 

If he is really depressed, I hope this doesn't end with a shotgun in the mouth...........


----------



## Don Duende

DHEA is an anabolic steroid. Steroid means that is is produced in the body from cholesterol. Anabolic means that it promotes growth and/or repair of human tissue. DHEA is crucial for human health and has been extensively studied since the late 1950's. Many use it as an anti-aging supplement. So as far as it can improve/optimize the performance in an aging athlete, it is therefore a PED.


----------



## den bakker

Bry03cobra said:


> Sadly if he didn't have the past he does, maybe he would get a break. Sounds like a legit mistake. For whatever reason, his lies, the divorce or parent issues, he is depressed.
> 
> If he is really depressed, I hope this doesn't end with a shotgun in the mouth...........


legit mistake?
"What I did was wrong and yes, I did know it [DHEA] was on the list of banned substances. I also knew that USADA could have shown up any day and at any time to test me."
wherein is the "mistake"


----------



## stevesbike

strange story - if he's really depressed why isn't he taking a prescription anti-depressant? The reporting says it was from an over-the-counter medication (first off, there's not really an effective non-prescription med; second off, he's just plain stupid if he took some homeopathic herbal thing that was cross-contaminated due to crappy manufacturing)...


----------



## BikinCO

Bocephus Jones II said:


> yes it is an anabolic though not very effective as a PED from what I read...
> 
> Don't let the pinkt hear you say that.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

den bakker said:


> legit mistake?
> "What I did was wrong and yes, I did know it [DHEA] was on the list of banned substances. I also knew that USADA could have shown up any day and at any time to test me."
> wherein is the "mistake"


He sounds like a mess--basically not thinking very clearly. Maybe retiring from the whole rat race will be best for all involved. If he'd really wanted to dope for performance reasons he wouldn't have been taking some OTC supplement that probably only contained trace amounts of DHEA.


----------



## stevesbike

updated story says he knew the med contained DHEA but took it anyway - put the guy on a suicide watch, that's pretty self-destructive behavior...


----------



## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> Tyler is depressed because for years he has been caught in a giant lie of his own invention. His insane defense that was based on nothing but lies is THAT is what is pathetic.
> 
> As usual the messenger is attacked and the message, that Tyler is a doper, liar, and a cheat, is ignored.


I know you know that the people who are thinking are in a tiny minority.

I guess most haven't heard that the softest pillow is a clear conscience.

Tyler can rectify many of his problems if he would be honest for once. A tell all book would cure his financial woes and he'd probably be able to get a good nights sleep for the first time in a long while.

Will Tyler show up on the Pharmstrong payroll? I can't wait for Pharmstrong's comments on this one.


----------



## Don Duende

Quote:
Because DHEA is converted to androstenedione and then testosterone, it has two chances to aromatize into estrogen- estrone from androstenedione, and estradiol from testosterone. As such, it is possible for increases in estrogen levels more than testosterone in men.

DHEA is not converted into testosterone in any significant quantities, in men.

It works in a more subtle and complex way that results in the resetting of hormonal levels to that of a "younger" man. What is surprising is how it was detected since it is chemically and biologically identical to natural DHEA. Maybe his levels was far in excess of prior levels? Probably got sloppy in his doping program and got caught, many times. 

Good Bye Liar Tyler and good riddance.


----------



## lookrider

Bocephus Jones II said:


> He sounds like a mess--basically not thinking very clearly. Maybe retiring from the whole rat race will be best for all involved. If he'd really wanted to dope for performance reasons he wouldn't have been taking some OTC supplement that probably only contained trace amounts of DHEA.


You're assuming the stuff he was caught for is the only gear he was using?


----------



## Henry Porter

Bry03cobra said:


> Sadly if he didn't have the past he does, maybe he would get a break. Sounds like a legit mistake. For whatever reason, his lies, the divorce or parent issues, he is depressed.
> 
> If he is really depressed, I hope this doesn't end with a shotgun in the mouth...........


I think that is the biggest concern now, hopefully he doesn't try anything really stupid.


----------



## lookrider

stevesbike said:


> updated story says he knew the med contained DHEA but took it anyway - put the guy on a suicide watch, that's pretty self-destructive behavior...


be careful, I laid out that possible scenario a few weeks ago and got hammered here by some of the idolaters.


----------



## crit_specialist

This is sad. I don't want to get into a flame war between the anti-doper crusaders and the myth believers. I take no satisfaction in finding out that Tyler Hamilton tested positive again nor is self congratulations in order because I had a feeling that there was something behind the rumors that have been flying around about him. 

This seems to be a sad case of a someone who tried so hard to be a caliber of rider beyond his own potential. In Daniel Coyle's book Tyler Hamilton is obsessed with doing everything like Lance Armstrong, as if his own identity wasn't strong enough to bring him cycling success. I hope Tyler gets himself into some serious therapy and with people who can support him to transition out of being a professional cyclist. We all know what happened to Marco Pantani so hopefully the cycling community has learned from that and there are going to be people around Hamilton now to help him. I hope he is able to someday share his story with everyone in a way that doesn't suck the life out of him. In the photos over the last 2 years he has really aged, right? He might be motivated now to tell the truth about his past in a tell all book like Jose Canseco did for baseball. Tyler is going to need the money and his mental health issues may depend on him being honest--therapy of writing stuff. This is a sad story that I hope doesn't get worse. Hopefully this is the bottom that he needed to hit to move on with his life in a healthy way.


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

Article

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/tyler-hamilton-positive-again-21269


> Hamilton claims he took the suggested dosage for two days prior to the out-of-competition urine test. USADA's legal limit of DHEA found in the urine is 100ng/mL. Hamilton's urine sample was tested at UCLA where lab technicians found 130 ng/mL of DHEA in his urine sample. Dr. Paul Scott, founder of Scott Analytics, reviewed the testing procedure for the B sample.
> 
> 
> According to Scott, *the level found in Hamilton's urine was not consistent with him taking large amounts of the drug. *However, trying to nail down how much was taken is hard if not impossible. "It could have been a large amount taken several days before the test where only small amounts remained, or it could have been a small amount, the suggested dosage on the bottle, taken the day before the control," Scott told _Cyclingnews_. "That is a question only Tyler can answer. But, we can't exclude other possibilities to the way it was taken."





> "There is no scientific evidence or basis for this steroid to be a performance enhancer," said Scott. "It is fair to suggest that the probability of DHEA having a performance effect on anyone, at any amount taken is inconceivable. *There is no good reason to take DHEA, this is a very foolish drug to take because it is readily detectable, but it has no performance enhancements."*


----------



## bigpinkt

I agree that this could be a positive step for Tyler. I wouldn't put him in with Pantani though. After reading "The Death of Marco Pantani" is was clear that Pantani was seriously nuts from an early age. Tyler has his issues but nothing of that level.

It is an opportunity for him to come clean but given the nature of his press conference today it doesn't appear that is the direction he will take. It is too bad because it would certainly help his personal challenges.


----------



## blackhat

bigpinkt said:


> I wouldn't put him in with Pantani though. After reading "The Death of Marco Pantani" is was clear that Pantani was seriously nuts from an early age. Tyler has his issues but nothing of that level.



agreed. tyler's (apparently) got some emotional problems, probably stress related. nothing anywhere close to the closet of crazy Pantani lived in. 
that's a great book, btw.


----------



## Digger28

Don Duende said:


> Quote:
> Because DHEA is converted to androstenedione and then testosterone, it has two chances to aromatize into estrogen- estrone from androstenedione, and estradiol from testosterone. As such, it is possible for increases in estrogen levels more than testosterone in men.
> 
> DHEA is not converted into testosterone in any significant quantities, in men.
> 
> It works in a more subtle and complex way that results in the resetting of hormonal levels to that of a "younger" man. What is surprising is how it was detected since it is chemically and biologically identical to natural DHEA. Maybe his levels was far in excess of prior levels? Probably got sloppy in his doping program and got caught, many times.
> 
> Good Bye Liar Tyler and good riddance.


So in your opinion, was it performance related, rather than simply mental health?


----------



## lookrider

blackhat said:


> agreed. tyler's (apparently) got some emotional problems, probably stress related. nothing anywhere close to the closet of crazy Pantani lived in.
> that's a great book, btw.


Yes, but depressed people are not necessarily crazy; many of them are much more rational than "normal" people. In the cyclingnews article they talk about Tyler's desperation after he had to get off the Celexa because of the side effects.

I'm sure with all the lies he's told his family, and his mom's illness, he is indeed in a very bad way.

I hope he has some good friends and family to give him some unconditional love, he needs it more than most right now.


----------



## Mootsie

lookrider said:


> Yes, but *depressed people are not necessarily crazy; many of them are much more rational than "normal" people*.


Not the one I used to be married to.


----------



## DIRT BOY

Don Duende said:


> DHEA is an anabolic steroid. Steroid means that is is produced in the body from cholesterol. Anabolic means that it promotes growth and/or repair of human tissue. DHEA is crucial for human health and has been extensively studied since the late 1950's. Many use it as an anti-aging supplement. So as far as it can improve/optimize the performance in an aging athlete, it is therefore a PED.


Sure it does. You believe everyhting GNC tells you right? The stuff is crap and is manily good as a cheap form of ****** working better in women for sex drive.


----------



## DIRT BOY

Bocephus Jones II said:


> yes it is an anabolic though not very effective as a PED from what I read...
> 
> Wiki says:


Its not really and anabolic steroid or it would not NOT be sold OTC. Its great for making your female companion HORNY though.

Now it is USED for masking steroids and that's what Mark McGuire was using it for.

Its crap! We/they pushed this on Body Builders big time in the early 90's when it came out.


----------



## bigpinkt

That Hamilton pushed the envelope is no surprise, he has never been the most rational thinker.

In the spring of the 2004, after LBL, the UCI sat him down and said "look, your blood values are way out of whack, your off score and Hct are super close to the line, and we have a new blood doping test coming out for the Olympics" Did that slow him down? Nope.

Even after he was found guilty, his defense was schreded, and his doping schedule and invoices were found in Fuente's office, he continued to pretend he did not dope.

During his press conference today it was clear he is not a changed guy, still the same old Tyler looking for an excuse for his actions.


----------



## lookrider

Mootsie said:


> Not the one I used to be married to.


My condolences, really.

You're probably relieved now, but I'm sure it was a living hell at the time.

I hope she got the help she needed, because she was most likely miserable also.

These psychological/emotional problems are awful and they break my heart. That being said, people suffering from those problems are often very difficult on their friends and family, and unfortunately they have a tendency to alienate the people they care about and need the most.

Sad situation. With regard to Tyler, he'll never even hope to deal with his issues unless he confronts his situation head on. He must have incredible guilt about the lies he told everyone, but especially his Mom and other family members.

Every day these doping stories unfold, LeMond is looking more and more prescient.

Oh, I forgot, he's a hater....


----------



## jhamlin38

the sooner he accepts his dishonesty within himself, and explains that he knowingly cheated now and in the past, the sooner he can move forward with anything. If he does nothing, and denys, he'll NEVER be able to do anything. His depression will worsen, he'll be more isolated, and more poor decisions will occur.
he's seems pretty incapable of doing the right thing. Even though he's a cheater, I feel bad for the guy for some reason.


----------



## lookrider

bigpinkt said:


> That Hamilton pushed the envelope is no surprise, he has never been the most rational thinker.
> 
> In the spring of the 2004, after LBL, the UCI sat him down and said "look, your blood values are way out of whack, your off score and Hct are super close to the line, and we have a new blood doping test coming out for the Olympics" Did that slow him down? Nope.
> 
> Even after he was found guilty, his defense was schreded, and his doping schedule and invoices were found in Fuente's office, he continued to pretend he did not dope.
> 
> During his press conference today it was clear he is not a changed guy, still the same old Tyler looking for an excuse for his actions.


There's two ways out, one is the truth, the other we don't want to contemplate.

If anyone who hasn't experienced depression wants to know about it, read "Darkness Visible," by William Styron. Really harrowing.

He suggested that if the word "brainstorm" was available, it would apply better to depression, rather than an "aha" moment. 

Small doses of the truth are usually the only amounts humans can process at one time. To have the whole world dropped on you, as Tyler has had happen, is pretty daunting.


----------



## lookrider

jhamlin38 said:


> the sooner he accepts his dishonesty within himself, and explains that he knowingly cheated now and in the past, the sooner he can move forward with anything. If he does nothing, and denys, he'll NEVER be able to do anything. His depression will worsen, he'll be more isolated, and more poor decisions will occur.
> he's seems pretty incapable of doing the right thing. Even though he's a cheater, I feel bad for the guy for some reason.


Yes, I agree.

Being able to calmly sit still and face life's ups and downs is a great gift.

I wish the best for him.


----------



## Mootsie

I met him at the TOC this year. He stood for what had to be at least an hour in front of the Rock bus posing for pictures with everyone that wanted one. 
In retrospect I think that he probably realized that was his swan song and he better soak it all in. 

I wonder if he'll stay in Boulder or move back East.


----------



## Coolhand

BuenosAires said:


> Congratulations. Would you like a cookie?


Wait, you're giving out cookies? Best Doping Forum Thread Ever!


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> He should have said "I am nuts because I have been living in a big lie for the last 4 years"
> 
> Guess there was some validity to the Anti-depression stuff.






> Dr. Charles Welch, at Mass General hospital in Boston diagnosed Hamilton with clinical depression in 2003. He was prescribed Celexa as an anti-depressant for the next six years. According to Hamilton, he took amounts double the prescribed dosage for two weeks in January when his mental health declined further after his mother was diagnosed with cancer.
> 
> Severe side effects caused him to stop taking the prescribed medication at the end of January. According to Hamilton, his mental health continued to decline without prescription medication during training camp where he purchased Mitamins Advanced Formula for Depression.



I'm able to feel some empathy for the guy.


----------



## rocco

BikinCO said:


> He was diagnosed int 2003 with depression.
> 
> 
> 
> It is sad and your gloating over breaking the news weeks ago is pathetic. But you must feel important now, huh?



Apparently some here grew up without roll models around them such as mother to show them what empathy is. Sad.


----------



## rocco

stevesbike said:


> strange story - if he's really depressed why isn't he taking a prescription anti-depressant? The reporting says it was from an over-the-counter medication (first off, there's not really an effective non-prescription med; second off, he's just plain stupid if he took some homeopathic herbal thing that was cross-contaminated due to crappy manufacturing)...



Here's his explanation.


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> Apparently some here grew up without rolls models around them such as mother to show them what empathy is. Sad.


Whatever gloating I may have done was not directed at Tyler but at the various posters who took shots at me for posting what was widely known. If I was wrong the same monkeys would have wasted no time rubbing my nose in it.

After the insane charade that Tyler put on for the the last 4 years it is hard to feel sorry for him, let alone believe him. He has consistently lied and blamed others for his actions. 

Perhaps if Tyler had grow up with roll models around him he would not have resorted to such tricks.


----------



## SilasCL

rocco said:


> Here's his explanation.


I thought this was his explanation:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/interviews/?id=tyler_hamilton05


----------



## rocco

SilasCL said:


> I thought this was his explanation:
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/interviews/?id=tyler_hamilton05



Clever... Is that supposed to funny? Or is it just a plane statement of cynicism showing that you doubt whether he's was on prescription for Celexa for six years to treat his depression?


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> Clever... Is that supposed to funny? Or is it just a plane statement of cynicism showing that you doubt whether he's was on prescription for Celexa for six years to treat his depression?


Considering Tyler's long history of lying it is appropriate to question anything he says. 

In this case I do know that Tyler has has some issues for quite a while. One of his former teammates told me about the depression years ago. He also said that Tyler had some issues with an eating disorder, neither of which is uncommon in the pro peloton. 

Regardless just because Tyler has some issues with depression does not mean you cannot question his rather inexcusable actions over the last 4 years.


----------



## SilasCL

rocco said:


> Clever... Is that supposed to funny? Or is it just a plane statement of cynicism showing that you doubt whether he's was on prescription for Celexa for six years to treat his depression?


I believe the depression and the Celexa, I don't believe the recent OTC stuff containing DHEA. Who knows why he tested positive for it, but I have zero reason to believe him when it comes to doping excuses.

Not supposed to be funny, just supposed to reflect the ridiculousness of believing Tyler. Reminds me of a certain website...


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> Whatever gloating I may have done was not directed at Tyler but at the various posters who took shots at me for posting what was widely known. If I was wrong the same monkeys would have wasted no time rubbing my nose in it.


Good for you showing those "monkeys" who require more than speculation, innuendo, gossip and rumour... I mean, "what was widely known", that you're in the know. 




bigpinkt said:


> After the insane charade that Tyler put on for the the last 4 years it is hard to feel sorry for him, let alone believe him. He has consistently lied and blamed others for his actions.
> 
> Perhaps if Tyler had grow up with roll models around him he would not have resorted to such tricks.


No empathy.


----------



## stevesbike

by "roll" models do you mean growing up around a bakery?


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> you're in the know.


Exactly



rocco said:


> No empathy.


This is a doping in cycling forum.... not a depression forum. I am sure many will now use Tyler's depression as an excuse for his actions. It may be part of the cause, but it does not excuse what he did no would be be reason to ignore it.


----------



## bigpinkt

stevesbike said:


> by "roll" models do you mean growing up around a bakery?


First cookies, now bakeries....if someone brings beer this will be the best doping thread ever!

Man, I love bakeries


----------



## Digger28

bigpinkt said:


> Considering Tyler's long history of lying it is appropriate to question anything he says.
> 
> In this case I do know that Tyler has has some issues for quite a while. One of his former teammates told me about the depression years ago. He also said that Tyler had some issues with an eating disorder, neither of which is uncommon in the pro peloton.
> 
> Regardless just because Tyler has some issues with depression does not mean you cannot question his rather inexcusable actions over the last 4 years.


From what you've heard, is the depression related to his doping? Or has he no conscience like most of the other convicted dopers....


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> Considering Tyler's long history of lying it is appropriate to question anything he says.
> 
> In this case I do know that Tyler has has some issues for quite a while. One of his former teammates told me about the depression years ago. He also said that Tyler had some issues with an eating disorder, neither of which is uncommon in the pro peloton.
> 
> Regardless just because Tyler has some issues with depression does not mean you cannot question his rather inexcusable actions over the last 4 years.



I don't think anyone is saying that his actions in the past cannot be questioned though now that he's retired/done it seems to me that doing so has little practical use. What he did 4 years ago or last month doesn't justify one's inability to feel empathy for him as he tries to deal with his mental health issues. To me expressions of schadenfreude related to this subject are repugnant.


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that his actions in the past cannot be questioned though now that he's retired/done it seems to me that doing so is rather moot. What he did 4 years ago or last month doesn't justify one's inability to feel empathy for him as he tries to deal with his mental health issues. To me expressions of schadenfreude related to this subject are repugnant.


You are searching for something that isn't there. I wrote that I feel this could be a positive step for Tyler and I hope he can confront some of the demons that drove his actions and visa versa. 

Not going to sugar coat it, the guy lied and cheated for years. He did serious damage to the sport. While I feel sorry for him it is hard to overlook his actions and embrace him after what he has done.


----------



## bigpinkt

Digger28 said:


> From what you've heard, is the depression related to his doping? Or has he no conscience like most of the other convicted dopers....


Never heard more then that. In fact the discussion was more about his eating issues. It certainly would explain why every time he fell something would break.


----------



## mohair_chair

Jeeze, you fire off a dozen rumors a month. The bulk of them up being pure BS. One ends up being true and you strut around like you're Nostradamus. At best you're batting .100, and that's definitely not worthy of strutting. Enjoy your success. It doesn't come very often.

As for your comments and lack of empathy about his depression, that's just one more subject about which you know absolutely nothing. If you had it yourself or actually knew anyone who had it, you would realize how stupid you sound trying to joke about it and determine the "causes." It's not a laughing matter, and it's not a subject for your speculation. It's a terrible thing to have.


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> Exactly


There's been nothing that has actually proven that you did know but if it strokes your ego... OK.



bigpinkt said:


> This is a doping in cycling forum.... not a depression forum. I am sure many will now use Tyler's depression as an excuse for his actions. It may be part of the cause, but it does not excuse what he did no would be be reason to ignore it.


Yes, this is a doping in cycling forum.... so what? We're forbidden to discuss or consider what factor depression might have had regarding his actions or whether he deserves any empathy? I see no evidence that people including Hamilton are using his depression as an excuse to not ban him from racing. He's retired now... it's over... what more do you need?


----------



## Bocephus Jones II

mohair_chair said:


> Jeeze, you fire off a dozen rumors a month. The bulk of them up being pure BS. One ends up being true and you strut around like you're Nostradamus. At best you're batting .100, and that's definitely not worthy of strutting. Enjoy your success. It doesn't come very often.
> 
> As for your comments and lack of empathy about his depression, that's just one more subject about which you know absolutely nothing. If you had it yourself or actually knew anyone who had it, you would realize how stupid you sound trying to joke about it and determine the "causes." It's not a laughing matter, and it's not a subject for your speculation. It's a terrible thing to have.


Yo BigPinkT!


----------



## rocco

mohair_chair said:


> Jeeze, you fire off a dozen rumors a month. The bulk of them up being pure BS. One ends up being true and you strut around like you're Nostradamus. At best you're batting .100, and that's definitely not worthy of strutting. Enjoy your success. It doesn't come very often.
> 
> As for your comments and lack of empathy about his depression, that's just one more subject about which you know absolutely nothing. If you had it yourself or actually knew anyone who had it, you would realize how stupid you sound trying to joke about it and determine the "causes." It's not a laughing matter, and it's not a subject for your speculation. It's a terrible thing to have.



Well come to think of it there may be something in his personal circumstances that drives such behavior... it could be a cry for help... perhaps he deserves our empathy.


----------



## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> Jeeze, you fire off a dozen rumors a month. The bulk of them up being pure BS. One ends up being true and you strut around like you're Nostradamus. At best you're batting .100, and that's definitely not worthy of strutting. Enjoy your success. It doesn't come very often.


then you must have lots of examples of where I been wrong, please share.

Still waiting for those dozen plausible reason for EPO in Armstrong samples


----------



## bigpinkt

Bocephus Jones II said:


> Yo BigPinkT!
> ]


You call THAT owned? The number of times Mohair has been embarrassed here?


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> We're forbidden to discuss or consider what factor depression might have had regarding his actions or whether he deserves any empathy? I see no evidence that people including Hamilton are using his depression as an excuse to not ban him from racing. He's retired now... it's over... what more do you need?


What exactly is your point as you are making no sense? You want us to fell sorry for Tyler? I have not questioned the validity of his depression. There are many of us who, because of his lying, have a hard time feeling sorry for him.

You have somehow perceived that I am attacking him because of his depression,that is not the case.


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> What exactly is your point as you are making no sense? You want us to fell sorry for Tyler? I have not questioned the validity of his depression. There are many of us who, because of his lying, have a hard time feeling sorry for him.
> 
> You have somehow perceived that I am attacking him because of his depression,that is not the case.



I know you can't understand... it's OK.


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> I know you can't understand... it's OK.


Because you can't explain.


----------



## Digger28

mohair_chair said:


> Jeeze, you fire off a dozen rumors a month. The bulk of them up being pure BS. One ends up being true and you strut around like you're Nostradamus. At best you're batting .100, and that's definitely not worthy of strutting. Enjoy your success. It doesn't come very often.
> 
> As for your comments and lack of empathy about his depression, that's just one more subject about which you know absolutely nothing. If you had it yourself or actually knew anyone who had it, you would realize how stupid you sound trying to joke about it and determine the "causes." It's not a laughing matter, and it's not a subject for your speculation. It's a terrible thing to have.


Examples of BigPinkt's 'rumours' being BS. 

Secondly, for obvious reasons I will not get into why I am qualified to speak about depression, hasten to add, I unfortunately am, there is validity in asking if the depression is related to the lies Tyler has told over the years. Otherwise, if he feels no guilt whatsoever, he is sociopathic. 

So now we won't be able to call Tyler up on his cheating, because of the depression card...sounds familiar.


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> You are searching for something that isn't there. I wrote that I feel this could be a positive step for Tyler and I hope he can confront some of the demons that drove his actions and visa versa.
> 
> Not going to sugar coat it, the guy lied and cheated for years. He did serious damage to the sport. While I feel sorry for him it is hard to overlook his actions and embrace him after what he has done.


Oh I see... so you do feel sorry for him? Maybe nobody ever explained to what empathy is... it isn't the same as overlooking his actions or embracing him.

BTW, Speaking of searching for something... here's an interesting read about what you knew, thought and seemed have been seeking.

I don't expect you'll understand what it all means but I think others will get it.



bigpinkt said:


> Rumors are swirling that Tyler tested positive again at the ToC. He DNS today in Spain blaming a 3 week old cold. If it is true, so far I have heard from people that would know that it is, it would be a lifetime ban.
> 
> I wonder if whatever it was that he was taking was what made him look like Angus from AC/DC?





bigpinkt said:


> Going to be able to say "I told you so" very soon





bigpinkt said:


> I told you so





bigpinkt said:


> It appears the Anti-Depressant excuse is just something that some friends are using as an excuse for the positive, it is not what he tested for.





bigpinkt said:


> It is sad what he tested positive for. As much as I may despise the charade he put on for 4 years I am sure his life has been a wreck.
> 
> Supposedly it is for anti depressants. The truth will set you free, carrying that lie around for years is a huge burden.





bigpinkt said:


> Good questions, I have no idea. So far it is just a rumor that I have heard from several people. Anti depressants are VERY common in pro cycling but I do not know how they could trigger a positive test.





bigpinkt said:


> He should have said "I am nuts because I have been living in a big lie for the last 4 years"
> 
> Guess there was some validity to the Anti-depression stuff.





bigpinkt said:


> Tyler is depressed because for years he has been caught in a giant lie of his own invention. His insane defense that was based on nothing but lies is THAT is what is pathetic.
> 
> As usual the messenger is attacked and the message, that Tyler is a doper, liar, and a cheat, is ignored. Tyler is depressed because for years he has been caught in a giant lie of his own invention. His insane defense that was based on nothing but lies is THAT is what is pathetic.





bigpinkt said:


> Whatever gloating I may have done was not directed at Tyler but at the various posters who took shots at me for posting what was widely known. If I was wrong the same monkeys would have wasted no time rubbing my nose in it.
> 
> After the insane charade that Tyler put on for the the last 4 years it is hard to feel sorry for him, let alone believe him. He has consistently lied and blamed others for his actions.





bigpinkt said:


> Exactly
> 
> 
> This is a doping in cycling forum.... not a depression forum. I am sure many will now use Tyler's depression as an excuse for his actions. It may be part of the cause, but it does not excuse what he did no would be be reason to ignore it.





bigpinkt said:


> Perhaps if Tyler had grow up with roll models around him he would not have resorted to such tricks.
> As usual the messenger is attacked and the message, that Tyler is a doper, liar, and a cheat, is ignored.





bigpinkt said:


> What exactly is your point as you are making no sense? You want us to fell sorry for Tyler? I have not questioned the validity of his depression. There are many of us who, because of his lying, have a hard time feeling sorry for him.
> 
> You have somehow perceived that I am attacking him because of his depression,that is not the case.


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> Oh I see... so you do feel sorry for him? Maybe nobody ever explained to what empathy is... it isn't the same as overlooking his actions or embracing him.
> 
> BTW, Speaking of searching for something... here's an interesting read about what you knew, thought and seemed have been seeking.
> 
> I don't expect you'll understand what it all means but I think others will get it.



This proves what exactly? That you know how to use the "Search" function?


----------



## bigpinkt

Digger28 said:


> So now we won't be able to call Tyler up on his cheating, because of the depression card...sounds familiar.


It appears that is the case. Now instead of people posting "Why don't you leave him alone, he has saved millions of people with cancer research" We will get rambling posts with no point with the word empathy repeated over and over.


----------



## JSR

*Searching for something good to say...*

... except for bigpinkt having been right all along.

The process was handled with discretion. Apart from unatributable rumors, no news was made of this until the B sample was confirmed. Compared to the Flandis situation, and many others over the last few years, this is a step forward for pro cyclists' rights. 

One speculates, though, that a rider with a higher profile, pulling out of more important races, would have generated more speculation and more scrutiny from the press. 

JSR


----------



## rocco

bigpinkt said:


> Because you can't explain.



You seem only interested in taking some sort of "I told you so" victory lap because the rummers you knew turned out to be true and think that anyone who feels any sort of empathy for his situation is as good as forgiving him for his indiscretions.


----------



## bigpinkt

rocco said:


> think that anyone who feels any sort of empathy for his situation is as good as forgiving him for his indiscretions.


Thank you for this explanation.....but where do I write that?


----------



## Fredke

jhamlin38 said:


> the sooner he accepts his dishonesty within himself, and explains that he knowingly cheated now and in the past, the sooner he can move forward with anything.


From VeloNews: 
"I took a banned substance so I need to take whatever penalty they will give me and move forward," Hamilton said.​


----------



## Digger28

rocco said:


> You seem oly interested in taking some sort of "I told you so" victory lap because the rummers you knew turned out to be true and that even though he's now banned and retired anyone who feels any sort of empathy for his situation is as good as forgiving him for his indiscretions.


I feel great empathy for anyone who suffers with depression. It's literally life threatening, and is an awful burden on both the sufferer and those immediate to that person. HOWEVER, I've been re-reading some of his interviews, just now, from the past few years, and the lies this man has spoken, are beyond belief. 
So, whilst I feel for the depression, I certainly am not forgiving of a guy who still lies, lies, lies. This guy has such an opportunity right now, even as late as today, to tell the truth, and he made the decision to keep protecting the Omerta. If he told the truth, and then spoke of his depression, I would genuinely feel sorry for the guy. But he seems unrepentent. And how can you 'forgive' a guy who is unrepentent?

And it absolutely is a valid question to ask...is the depression being exacerbated by his doping, and the impact the doping has had on him as a person....I'm all for second chances, and 'empathy', but that person has to accept some degree of blame and sorrow first.


----------



## SilasCL

Fredke said:


> From VeloNews:
> "I took a banned substance so I need to take whatever penalty they will give me and move forward," Hamilton said.​


I would make the distinction that he claimed it wasn't for performance enhancement, and it seemed to me that he was saying so to justify that it wasn't purposeful cheating.

To me it's the difference between acknowledging that you had a false start in a race versus purposefully getting a head start and claiming that it was an accidental false start. Either way the race is void, but the intentions are radically different, making the transgression different as well.


----------



## SilasCL

mohair_chair said:


> Jeeze, you fire off a dozen rumors a month. The bulk of them up being pure BS. One ends up being true and you strut around like you're Nostradamus. At best you're batting .100, and that's definitely not worthy of strutting. Enjoy your success. It doesn't come very often.
> 
> As for your comments and lack of empathy about his depression, that's just one more subject about which you know absolutely nothing. If you had it yourself or actually knew anyone who had it, you would realize how stupid you sound trying to joke about it and determine the "causes." It's not a laughing matter, and it's not a subject for your speculation. It's a terrible thing to have.


Quick question to the moderator:

Will Rocco and Mohair_Chair get a temporary ban for making a doping thread personal? Seems over the line and then some...


----------



## mohair_chair

Digger28 said:


> So now we won't be able to call Tyler up on his cheating, because of the depression card...sounds familiar.


Why not? You can't prove or even imply causality between Tyler's lying and cheating and his depression. Clinical depression doesn't really work that way. It has a physiological basis. It can also be inherited, for which their is evidence in his family. Was his mother a liar and cheater too? Were his grandfather, grandmother, and sister all liars and cheaters? There's no link, and you guys all sound like idiots when you try to make one.

Feel free to call him out on his lying and cheating. Leave the depression alone.


----------



## bigpinkt

SilasCL said:


> Quick question to the moderator:
> 
> Will Rocco and Mohair_Chair get a temporary ban for making a doping thread personal? Seems over the line and then some...


No action will be taken. 

Many times when I have embarrassed Mohair with facts he starts calling me names out of frustration. I have mentioned it to a mod and his response was that while it may be against the written rules of the forum because of Mohair's high post count and that he shares the view of some Mods that his insults would be ignored.


----------



## rook

*Who's next to get busted and then start with the lies?*

BUSTED! I'm not buying Hamilton's claim that he used DHEA in an herbal supplement to alleviate his depression. DHEA is a metabolite that is broken down from another substance. Hamilton claims that the substance that he took was a herbal/vitamin supplement, and that the metabolite must have been from the supplement and not from a performance-enhancing drug such as an anabolic steroid.

Hamilton admitted in the Velonews article that he knowingly knew that some herbal supplements were on the banned substance list, but he was going to take them anyway. He chose this route purportedly to combat his depression, even though there are actual prescription anti-depressants that are allowed by the UCI and not on any international or national banned substances list. So basically Hamilton admits to knowingly take an herbal supplement that was banned over prescription antidepressants that are not banned. Go figure.

Too bad it had to come to this. I wish Hamilton would, for once, be honest and own up to the fact that he cheated.


----------



## bigpinkt

mohair_chair said:


> Why not? You can't prove or even imply causality between Tyler's lying and cheating and his depression. Clinical depression doesn't really work that way. It has a physiological basis. It can also be inherited, for which their is evidence in his family. Was his mother a liar and cheater too? Were his grandfather, grandmother, and sister all liars and cheaters? There's no link, and you guys all sound like idiots when you try to make one.
> 
> Feel free to call him out on his lying and cheating. Leave the depression alone.


There have been studies linking PED use and depression. It is commonly listed as one of the negative side effects. 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/performance-enhancing-drugs/hq01105

There are also some who believe that some may be more inclined towards use due to biological factors.

http://www.wickedlocal.com/belmont/...-key-biological-psychological-characteristics

Jesus Manzano used Prozac often and said that depression was common amongst dopers

_The drugs lead you to other addictions. The anti-depressants almost automatically accompany other doping treatments. I took up to eight pills of Prozac a day when I was racing,” Manzano said. “Prozac cuts the appetite, keeps you in another world, a world where you’re not afraid of what you’re doing. You’re no longer afraid to inject yourself with all the crap. It takes you to a world where you don’t ask any more questions, especially you don’t ask your doctor questions either or your sporting director. Then one day all of the sudden it stops and you become dramatically depressed. Look at Pantani, Vandenbroucke and all the others we don’t even talk about. _

regardless, understand your point and see no value in attacking Tyler over his depression. As I wrote before I hope this has a positive result for him.


----------



## Digger28

mohair_chair said:


> Why not? You can't prove or even imply causality between Tyler's lying and cheating and his depression. Clinical depression doesn't really work that way. It has a physiological basis. It can also be inherited, for which their is evidence in his family. Was his mother a liar and cheater too? Were his grandfather, grandmother, and sister all liars and cheaters? There's no link, and you guys all sound like idiots when you try to make one.
> 
> Feel free to call him out on his lying and cheating. Leave the depression alone.


Mohair, I unfortunately have an awful lot of experience in this area. So don't even attempt to explain to me how clinical depression 'works'....You're the idiot here when you make such sweeping statements as to how clinical depression works.
I stand by my earlier remarks, if Tyler is completelt unaffected mentally, in relation to his past doping, then God help the guy.

You still haven't pointed out the things BigPinkt got wrong in the past few months I see. Too busy insulting it would seem.


----------



## jlandry

bigpinkt said:


> First cookies, now bakeries....if someone brings beer this will be the best doping thread ever!
> 
> Man, I love bakeries


Well, this is the doping forum. I'm getting the munchies.


----------



## lookrider

I guess it's fair to assume the "Believe" campaign is finally over.


----------



## rook

lookrider said:


> I guess it's fair to assume the "Believe" campaign is finally over.



The Believe in Tyler campaign is dead. The Don't Believe Tyler Campaign took it's place a long time ago. Seriously.
It's all here:
http://velochimp.com/2006/06/26/dont-believe-tyler/


----------



## bigpinkt

When Pantani died they found his body struggled to produce enough EPO to live. By the age of 25 he had to have injections as his body's natural production of EPO was so small.

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/epo_may_be_bodys_natural_antidepressant

Pantani at first gradually, then rapidly spun into heavy depression. What did his use/abuse of PED have to do with it?


----------



## mav6162005

Blame the twin, blame the depression, blame the vitamins. Tyler it's time to blame yourself...good luck to you....


----------



## mav6162005

*I thought TH looked more like this...*



bigpinkt said:


> Rumors are swirling that Tyler tested positive again at the ToC. He DNS today in Spain blaming a 3 week old cold. If it is true, so far I have heard from people that would know that it is, it would be a lifetime ban.
> 
> I wonder if whatever it was that he was taking was what made him look like Angus from AC/DC?


https://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv262/mav616/captny10703090648people_van_halen_n.jpg


----------



## cazdrvr

Seems like Tyler's pattern of lying was endemic to Pro Cycling when most riders were caught, especially if there was a possible out. Not excusing the action by any means, but pointing out a pattern. Time for ALL riders who committed infractions to step up and admit their fault. No wait, maybe the forum cognescenti only relish in certain riders being caught and punished.


----------



## snosaw

I made this post in the other "Tyler" thread. I guess the bottom line is that we all should feel sorry for the industry...bike racing. The competition and our culture are a bad combo.

This is really sad. I feel for the guy. 
No matter what people think, depression IS real. A previous post said, "Depression? Whatever. Not an excuse to cheat."

I guess that I would say I do not think it's cheating. Depression can make one feel helpless...hopeless and out of your mind. I have seen many reach for anything in desperation, for assistance. They do not think clearly. They want immediate help because their mind is melting. Unfortunately, our society does not except depression as an illness. Think of how many times you have thought of or flat out said "so and so is Crazy" or "nut job" or whatever. Imagine giving someone a hard time if they broke their leg? Many people jump at the opportunity to drive them to the hospital. But not with mental illnesses. Our society tends to push them away. Think of all the people who hide their mental illness from even their best friends? You truly would be surprised at how many of your friends take some form of psychotropic medication without you even knowing. And almost all psychotropic meds are on the "banned" list. I would guess that close to 1/3 or more of the riders in your club or on your team take something. 

If he truly is suffering from mental illness, give him some slack. As the rules state, DHEA is on the banned list so he does deserve whatever penalty handed to him. However, this does not make him a bad person, a cheat, a liar, whatever. He just needs help and I truly hope he finds it. I hope Tyler makes it through these difficult times and I hope he has a good support network.

Another thought...think of all the professional mountaineers who have taken Decadron (aka dexamethesone) to save their life when succumbing to HACE. It's an anti-swelling, brain steroid that is also on the banned list. Should we give them **** for taking a banned substance? Heck they may not be competing but they are professionals and are sponsored. They are using something to "ehance" their performance. I vote for "no". Let them take it because it saves lives.


----------



## Fredke

SilasCL said:


> I would make the distinction that he claimed it wasn't for performance enhancement, and it seemed to me that he was saying so to justify that it wasn't purposeful cheating.


Fair enough. I'm not going to put much effort into defending Tyler, on account of he's still a skeeze for the blood doping. Just that it's a lot less skeezy to at least acknowledge he was using than the crap he pulled in '04.


----------



## stevesbike

in the interest of making purely speculative rumors, I predict he will write a bio-tell all book, will come clean re OP, tie it all to a long genetic history of depression in his family, and then reinvent himself as an inspirational speaker on living with depression...


----------



## bertoni

BuenosAires said:


> Congratulations. Would you like a cookie?



After all the crap BigpinkT got for breaking the story I wouldnt blame him one bit for being a little smug.

IMHO, this mess could have been completely avoided by Tyler if he had been open with the authorities about his condition and given them a list of what he was taking for depression. It was his responsibility as a professional to be transparent about his condition. On top of all of that the substance he was taking is neither effective for treatment of depression or for performance enhancement.

It is hard to feel sorry for someone who is completely in denial about their own actions.


----------



## bertoni

crit_specialist said:


> This is sad. I don't want to get into a flame war between the anti-doper crusaders and the myth believers. I take no satisfaction in finding out that Tyler Hamilton tested positive again nor is self congratulations in order because I had a feeling that there was something behind the rumors that have been flying around about him.
> 
> This seems to be a sad case of a someone who tried so hard to be a caliber of rider beyond his own potential. In Daniel Coyle's book Tyler Hamilton is obsessed with doing everything like Lance Armstrong, as if his own identity wasn't strong enough to bring him cycling success. I hope Tyler gets himself into some serious therapy and with people who can support him to transition out of being a professional cyclist. We all know what happened to Marco Pantani so hopefully the cycling community has learned from that and there are going to be people around Hamilton now to help him. I hope he is able to someday share his story with everyone in a way that doesn't suck the life out of him. In the photos over the last 2 years he has really aged, right? He might be motivated now to tell the truth about his past in a tell all book like Jose Canseco did for baseball. Tyler is going to need the money and his mental health issues may depend on him being honest--therapy of writing stuff. This is a sad story that I hope doesn't get worse. Hopefully this is the bottom that he needed to hit to move on with his life in a healthy way.


Well said. I have empathy for Tyler, but it seems he needs time to come to terms with a lot of things around him, as well as his own actions. I personally hope he gets better professional help and adheres to an effective means of treatment and therapy.


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## Digger28

I believe completely that Tyler has serious issues regarding his mental health. I genuinely hope he gets well. Life is too precious to be burdened with depression.
However, I have serious doubts about his version of events. It simply does not add up to scrutiny. A TUE, and this would never have materialised. He has had a while now to get his story in order. Unfortunately, there is an awful lot of evidence pointing to Tyler having used this substance as a masking agent.
And before people jump on their high horses here, and throw out that cliche about walking in another's shoes, I know only too well what depression entails. And Tyler, depression or no depression, can have no complaints about the scrutiny and criticism he is now receiving. Simply because he has proven himself such a good liar over the years. How can we possibly be sure this is the truth? This is a guy who says that the positive was the result of an operation, where he received blood. Yet, he also says that he would never endanger Haven's life by getting another person's blood. He has shown no remorse whatsoever, and indulged himself in that awul campaign. Believe Tyler can be started up again maybe - this time with different connotations.:mad2:


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## bigpinkt

Digger28 said:


> This is a guy who says that the positive was the result of an operation, where he received blood. Yet, he also says that he would never endanger Haven's life by getting another person's blood. :


The "Operation" excuse only lasted a few weeks, until he couldn't come up up with an operation that would result in 13% of his blood being from someone else. It really wouldn't be much of a risk for Haven if he was using her blood. Common Fuentes practice according to Manzano.


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## rook

Digger28 said:


> I believe completely that Tyler has serious issues regarding his mental health. I genuinely hope he gets well. Life is too precious to be burdened with depression.
> However, I have serious doubts about his version of events. It simply does not add up to scrutiny. A TUE, and this would never have materialised. He has had a while now to get his story in order. Unfortunately, there is an awful lot of evidence pointing to Tyler having used this substance as a masking agent.
> And before people jump on their high horses here, and throw out that cliche about walking in another's shoes, I know only too well what depression entails. And Tyler, depression or no depression, can have no complaints about the scrutiny and criticism he is now receiving. Simply because he has proven himself such a good liar over the years. How can we possibly be sure this is the truth? This is a guy who says that the positive was the result of an operation, where he received blood. Yet, he also says that he would never endanger Haven's life by getting another person's blood. He has shown no remorse whatsoever, and indulged himself in that awul campaign. Believe Tyler can be started up again maybe - this time with different connotations.:mad2:



Hamilton just needs to own up. He was cheating as far back as when he was Armstrong's domestique.

If Hamilton didn't cheat and get his wife in on all of it, then maybe she wouldn't have left him. Now, what is he? Just a has-been rider with no income. He made what in all those years? Maybe 50 thousand net, that is after all the drugs and docs are paid for. And what does he have to show for it? Nada.


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## den bakker

rook said:


> Hamilton just needs to own up. He was cheating as far back as when he was Armstrong's domestique.
> 
> If Hamilton didn't cheat and get his wife in on all of it, then maybe she wouldn't have left him. Now, what is he? Just a has-been rider with no income. He made what in all those years? Maybe 50 thousand net, that is after all the drugs and docs are paid for. And what does he have to show for it? Nada.


He probably made a pretty dime while podium in a GC, being a tour contender and recent winner of a classic.


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## bigpinkt

rook said:


> Hamilton just needs to own up. He was cheating as far back as when he was Armstrong's domestique.
> 
> If Hamilton didn't cheat and get his wife in on all of it, then maybe she wouldn't have left him. Now, what is he? Just a has-been rider with no income. He made what in all those years? Maybe 50 thousand net, that is after all the drugs and docs are paid for. And what does he have to show for it? Nada.


He was making $800,000 on Phonak. Maybe $500,000 on CSC. IAdd in image rights and prize money and you have a few years of good cash......but

Subtract a divorce, taxes, a few years of high living and a bad housing market....things get a little tougher.


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## zero85ZEN

*Please....*



mohair_chair said:


> Sounds like someone is way too smug after one of his many reported rumors actually turns out to be true. Even the sun shines....


Point out another rumor of his that has not been proven true. I'm not saying they aren't out there...but if you keep bringing it up, back it up with the goods.


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## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*



bigpinkt said:


> No action will be taken.
> 
> Many times when I have embarrassed Mohair with facts he starts calling me names out of frustration. I have mentioned it to a mod and his response was that while it may be against the written rules of the forum because of Mohair's high post count and that he shares the view of some Mods that his insults would be ignored.


Actually you dropped multiple personal attacks in this thread after being warned and suspended previously: so you get the posting vacation for sure- for the one of Swift Solo, the Monkeys crack ect. Last warning ever. See you in two weeks.


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## Coolhand

*Moderators Note*

This thread had it all, repeated name calling, profanity filter subversion hijacks ect. Let's try and learn from this. About 4 posters should consider this a warning- don't make this personal.


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