# BD Outlaw or Marin Lombard?



## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

Any thoughts on these two?

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/outlaw.htm

http://www.rei.com/product/798552

The idea is to put together a decent winter / rain bike. I prefer disc brakes for these conditions. My commute is 14 miles with about 890' of vertical. The steepest grade is 11%. 

Thanks for any input!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

in general I'd take the marin and REI support over bd any day of the week and twice on sunday. that said, marin is 8-spd and triple. but if that doesn't matter, def go w/ the cheaper bike (REI, esp w/ dividend)


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

Thanks for the input. 

Is there any truth to the notion that an 8 speed is more reliable? I know parts are less expensive (good) but my forward concern is longterm availability / obsolescence.


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## quattrotom (Jul 15, 2006)

Bikes are bikes... 
in person support is in person support.

The green bike my wife rides for commuting and crusing (see 1st pic in Double Easter Thread) started it's life as a BD Motobocane Fantom Cross. It has survived a few collegiate crits, a dozen cyclocross races and now commutes to work and double Easters. The frame is solid (although I did repaint it green and white) and many of the components are still the originals (cranks, suprisingly the BB, brakes, wheels, seat post). 

As you can tell, I am a hardcore BD shill, so take my advice with a grain of salt.... just kidding.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have a nicely made in USA higher-end Santana Sovereign tandem. Each of our bikes rides as well as I tune it up.


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## quattrotom (Jul 15, 2006)

8 speed is easy to keep maintained. I just swapped over 10 speed DA from my racing bike to my cross bike (which was 1x8). During this process I discovered through several painful hours of re-tuning that my derailleur hanger was bent in multiple planes. It worked fine with an 8 speed cassette and old 105 derailleur, but the damn precision requirements of 10 speed was a PITA. OTH, my wife's bikes and our tandem are 9 speed and I don't really find it any more difficult or less reliable than 8 speed. YMMV


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Both are nice bikes.. I'd go with the Marin based on looks and dealer support


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## JohnnyTooBad (Apr 5, 2004)

I'd ask about fender mounts and room for fenders. I couldn't see any in the pics. If this is your winter/rain bike, that's a big deal.


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

Both bikes do have enough clearance and mounting for racks and fenders. The Marin even includes mounting on the fork for front panniers. Not sure about the aluminum fork though (j-j-jarring)

Does anyone have experience with the brakes on the Marin? I am familar with the brakes on the Outlaw - but haven't read anything good or bad on this variant of Tektro.


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## majura (Apr 21, 2007)

I got a new commuter this year (yet to post it up, but will soon) and despite all the thoughts in my head saying no to an Alu fork... I got it. My fork has a Cro-Mo Steerer tube, but with 32mm 120tpi rubber I don't feel any unwarranted jarring. Then again I have Ergon grips as well. 

You can always get a Cro-mo fork later down the line for under $100.

In terms of the Tektro brakes, I haven't used them but I am familiar with Tektro's quality and other hydro models. They are on par with Shimano/Avid in terms of performance and reliability.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Get the Marin. Eight speed chains and cassettes are super cheap, in the winter you can swap out the chain every month for around the cost of five gallons of gas.


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

If you can stretch your budget, this has way better components. With that 20% off coupon, it's 800 dollars. 

Buzz road bike (used to be the Element)










Otherwise if you are ok doing work yourself I would get the Outlaw, again for the better parts.


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

*I'm getting buzzed*

Thanks for the tip-off. 

The Marin doesn't qualify for the 20% discount, but the Novara does & I have a dividend check from last year. Easy enough decision. 

The only issue again may be the fork. There are alot of gripes in several reviews regarding the Aluminum fork being particularly good at transferring the road surface. I'll address that with a chromoly fork if necessary. 

I might even be able to use this full time and sell my fair weather bike. That said - I do like having a backup. We'll see how well this one works.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

aking legs said:


> Any thoughts on these two?
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/outlaw.htm
> 
> ...



Both of these bikes are very nice

However, a detailed look at the specs shows they are not really in the same class

Lots of details to evaluate when buying a bike; but noone can honestly say these two bikes are anywhere near the same spec level

I am somewhat disappointed that pros like Dave and Fred did not point that out


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Both of these bikes are very nice
> 
> However, a detailed look at the specs shows they are not really in the same class
> 
> ...




I'm no pro, but the lesson here is that service DOES matter... REI also has a kickass return policy; basically, OP could ride it for a yr or more and still return it. don't think anyone- including bd- can come close to that


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Both of these bikes are very nice
> 
> However, a detailed look at the specs shows they are not really in the same class
> 
> ...



You are correct Mike,.....I didn't point it out...

Here is what I said

"Both are nice bikes.. I'd go with the Marin based on looks and dealer support"

I stand by that comment....I've recommended your products to many people...In this case, I didn't feel it was the best choice.. 

It's not always about specs Mike....


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## majura (Apr 21, 2007)

Dave Hickey said:


> It's not always about specs Mike....


+1:thumbsup:


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> You are correct Mike,.....I didn't point it out...
> 
> Here is what I said
> 
> ...



Dave

you are correct - it is not always about specs
or looks and dealer support count
or any one thing

But in this case the specs are so far apart; I think it would be more fair to point that out to the OP {just my opinion} -- 

You may have noticed; I never comment on looks - it is so personal and every bike that someone safely enjoys is beuatiful to me

As you know; my biggest problem is getting enough bikes - not selling them.
That said even with hundreds of models and with using CF, AL, Ti, and Steel frames and all types of components - there are two things you never see me do [1] spec an off road bike with a CF frame [2] spec any bike with an AL fork. I could probably make a bit more money if I did; but I hope you know why I do not.

And my last comment on this: even though most people including the OP probably see that the fork, frt der, rear der, crank, BB, shifters, cassette, chain, and Brakes are much more expensive and higher level on the Moto -- here is the one point that really matters to most riders that many people would miss -- the Moto wheels are 3 times more expensive and vastly more durable - an insane difference. 

Both bikes are nice - they are just not anywhere close to the same level of spec or performance


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> But in this case the specs are so far apart; I think it would be more fair to point that out to the OP {just my opinion} --
> 
> You may have noticed; I never comment on looks - it is so personal and every bike that someone safely enjoys is beuatiful to me
> 
> ...




'specs are so far apart'? 'not anywhere close to the same level of spec or performance'?
get real... these are $800 bikes, with lower end components. how much difference do you think there really is? seriously, you think there is a huge gap in performance? for a winter/rain bike that op wants, it's close enough (the main diff is one is a triple and the other a compact, which was pointed out). except that the REI bike has you beat at your own game- price. esp when you add in the discount or member dividend. throw in service from a real shop and REI's return policy and it's a no-brainer. if your biggest problem isn't selling bikes, then why are you so concerned about (losing) this particular sale? or on these boards selling your bikes all the time? if you offered some degree of service (see the guy on your own board who couldn't get sizing issue resolved or any emails answered for 6 mos) it would be easier to rec your bikes...


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> 'specs are so far apart'? 'not anywhere close to the same level of spec or performance'?
> get real... these are $800 bikes, with lower end components. how much difference do you think there really is? seriously, you think there is a huge gap in performance? for a winter/rain bike that op wants, it's close enough (the main diff is one is a triple and the other a compact, which was pointed out). except that the REI bike has you beat at your own game- price. esp when you add in the discount or member dividend. throw in service from a real shop and REI's return policy and it's a no-brainer. if your biggest problem isn't selling bikes, then why are you so concerned about (losing) this particular sale? or on these boards selling your bikes all the time? if you offered some degree of service (see the guy on your own board who couldn't get sizing issue resolved or any emails answered for 6 mos) it would be easier to rec your bikes...


REI is a great company - they have a great return policy; we also have a very fair and good return policy

The email thing a red harring - we answer all emails every business day - from time to time some customers get our responses put in their spam folder and they can not find it; sometimes we get emails bouched back to us BUT as you know there are a dozen ways to contact us and anyone who wants to and tries can [check time - before you even made this post I had responded to guy with lost email and sent him a PM - you know he will be handled fairly like all our customers]

On the two bikes
YES - there is a super difference in the performance of these two bikes - period. No question about that. Fork, Brakes, Shifters, and Wheels are completely a different class on the Moto - it is that simple. If these bikes had even been close; I would not have even posted in this thread. If I take the CX3 and add tektro disc it will be like the Marin and I would sell for $595 

But no one should think CF Fork vs AL Fork does not matter; that Tiagra Shifters vs 2200 does not matter, that 105 der vs 2200 does not matter, that tektro base disc brakes vs BB5 does not matter. And most important thinking factory entry china wheelset vs hand-built XRP PRO does not matter would be crazy {I deal with these wheels all the time and have personally compared them in detail -- most bike shops sell wheels of the level of the XRP PROs for $400 to $600 - these XRP wheels are insanely nice wheels for any bike under $2000}

The vast difference in level and oem cost of these two bikes is the only reason I was shocked that the responses to the OPs valid question resulted in such shallow answers. I have a bike called the CAFE LATTE DISC on the way that is very very close to the Marin and is going to be $499 -- so of course, I do not think you can compare the two bikes the OP posted and not fairly point out that the specs are completely different.

To further answer your question - I am not concerned about 'losing this sale' - I will sell out of OUTLAWS before I can get more [just watch the site] -- My concern is the OP getting a fair answer - which he did not; until I posted - both bikes a nice, either can do the job, both sellers move a lot of bikes, rei has a great return policy and maybe a store close to him; bikesdirect has a good return policy and maybe a store close to him; but the specs on these two bikes are completely different.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

I thought you said your previous comment was your last?


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> I thought you said your previous comment was your last?



I did but you ask questions - I have attempted to answer completely

Come on - be fair; you know these two bikes are completely different
Give the OP an honest & complete answer

the nice thing for me about the forums - including this post: I get good ideas

There seems to be a demand for lower level [2200] CX style with disc
Our Fantom CX & CX3 sell out like crazy - now I know to add a disc version as for next year if I can get enough production from that factory [or to add a Lightning Cross in Disc - which comes from a different factory]
Either way; seems a sub $600 CX w/ disc is in order


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> I did but you ask questions - I have attempted to answer completely
> 
> Come on - be fair; you know these two bikes are completely different
> Give the OP an honest & complete answer
> ...




I gave my opnion already... completely different??? not as much as you think. for it's purpose- a winter beater- where parts will get replaced sooner rather than later, the lower price and service of REI trumps bd in a heartbeat. since when are bd bikes sold in stores? and how many and where are such stores? nice little commercial at the end, be sure to let us all know when the proto is ready (pics) and when the cargo ship leaves China!


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## aking legs (Aug 30, 2009)

Hi Mike, 

Glad to see you are going to add disc-brakes to at least one other model that could serve well as a daily driver. With that in mind - have you considered having a dedicated "commuter" section? The key elements of course would be solid reliable bikes - that are less race - but more "decent pace". 

The market has been headed this way for some time, and there are several bikes out there that come nicely equipped (fenders, rack & lights) but do not have drop bars - at least with a price point under $1000 Perhaps a "commuter" package could be added? A steel frame, disc equipped, drop bar, fendered (is that a word) & racked bike with a Planet Bike Superflash thrown in would be (insert your favorite cliche here - "the bomb" for instance)

I do have a couple of BD bicycles and they have worked out very well. Being a little skeptical the first one was purchased used through Craigslist. The Outlaw is close to ideal for my intended purpose (rain / snow) - and I had been eyeing it for over a year. This time around I am going with the BUZZ road bike (already purchased) - which is closer in spec to the Outlaw & with the current discount and a decent dividend from last year, just makes sense. The fork might have to go - but otherwise, it is just about perfect. 

Another thing - and this is strictly personal /cosmetic - the Outlaw has a little too much "flash" for my wicked coolness


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

aking legs said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Glad to see you are going to add disc-brakes to at least one other model that could serve well as a daily driver. With that in mind - have you considered having a dedicated "commuter" section? The key elements of course would be solid reliable bikes - that are less race - but more "decent pace".
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comments

I love commuter bikes and I am always looking to add new ones
Lately I have been riding a Cafe Express 8 with internal hub and love it
My wife commutes on a Fantom Cross UNO that she has modified

We sell a lot of basic bikes to commuters - like the Gravity Dutch; but I am working on more steel bikes with drop bars that will work well as commuters. AND one of my favorite for commuter type stuff is the somewhat odd Kilo WT5 - Reynolds 4130 and internal hub with barcon - not mainstream; but customers love it as do I.

I do agree that in the future; I may need to add more bikes with fenders & lights stock - or sell a commuter package as an add on.

I am sure you will love the Buzz - nice looking bike; if you need a smoother fork - let me know and I'll try to help you get one at a good price

thanks again


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> I gave my opnion already... completely different??? not as much as you think. for it's purpose- a winter beater- where parts will get replaced sooner rather than later, the lower price and service of REI trumps bd in a heartbeat. since when are bd bikes sold in stores? and how many and where are such stores? nice little commercial at the end, be sure to let us all know when the proto is ready (pics) and when the cargo ship leaves China!



Just a small note: OUTLAW does not come from China

I have had stores for 30 years - for 20 years of that I was the largest chain in the county - now I am more focused on internet

there are several shops that sell Motobecanes; as has been posted all over the net and RBR

Right now - I only own 7 shops


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Just a small note: OUTLAW does not come from China
> 
> I have had stores for 30 years - for 20 years of that I was the largest chain in the county - now I am more focused on internet
> 
> ...




whatever, they still come on a boat, like many other bikes. like it really matters to the general consumer. btw, you're good at not answering questions... 'posted all over the net and rbr'? riiight... so where are the shops? I might like to go in and check out a bd bike in person some time... if I only knew where to go


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> whatever, they still come on a boat, like many other bikes. like it really matters to the general consumer. btw, you're good at not answering questions... 'posted all over the net and rbr'? riiight... so where are the shops? I might like to go in and check out a bd bike in person some time... if I only knew where to go



Fred - you can find Motobecanes bikes in southern california
and in Arizona in all big markets

You can go to our shops in Dallas or Houston

also if you are in Orlando or Jacksonville - you can drop by shops and see the bikes

And I am opening a new shop next month

The question of shops is interesting; I get a few requests for our bikes from IBDs every week; but I really can only afford to supply a couple of long term friends in their shops. Really supply is my big issue.

Plus I do not think your question is serious; in that I do not think you would find traveling that far to see a few bikes worth the time or money.
And more over it is not related to the OPs question; but OP has a fair answer by now so that is what matters to me [and I hope to you]


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Fred - you can find Motobecanes bikes in southern california
> and in Arizona in all big markets
> 
> You can go to our shops in Dallas or Houston
> ...




weak sauce, what a cop out... once again, questions to you go mostly unanswered and the consumer is left to do all the work! you think shop names might be useful? and you don't know where I am, or where I regularly travel to... I would think you would jump at the chance to inform a potential customer and the many other board readers and potential customers exactly where your bikes could be found (like the specific names of the shops, not just the general geographic region or city).

ok, so for anyone that wants to know, and/or might want to check one out in person, here are some shops that carry bd bikes, including the name and locations (too bad if you're in Southern Calif, but somebody in that vast region supposedly carries 'em):
http://cyclespectrum.com/storelocator/

heck you can even find a phone number for bikesdirect if you look hard enough! (BBB Dallas)


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> weak sauce, what a cop out... once again, questions to you go mostly unanswered and the consumer is left to do all the work! you think shop names might be useful? and you don't know where I am, or where I regularly travel to... I would think you would jump at the chance to inform a potential customer and the many other board readers and potential customers exactly where your bikes could be found (like the specific names of the shops, not just the general geographic region or city).
> 
> ok, so for anyone that wants to know, and/or might want to check one out in person, here are some shops that carry bd bikes, including the name and locations (too bad if you're in Southern Calif, but somebody in that vast region supposedly carries 'em):
> http://cyclespectrum.com/storelocator/
> ...



We do not really promote shop sales using the net; I am sorry if this is hard to understand. Our shops do fine and sell plenty of bikes as they are.
But thanks for siting our BBB link which does show an A+ rating - the number listed is our Dallas office and not intended as you can guess for consumers. As I have stated hundreds of times - we use email to keep prices as low as they can be. This is what most of our customers want. {I do not many of our buyers want to talk on the phone at a cost of an additional 7% on their bike purchase}

Our business model is not for everyone; but it works for thousands of cyclists. And REI business model is not for everyone; but works for thousands of shoppers of all types. Same can be said for lots of other retailers. Consumers should shop and buy from the oners that meet their needs - that is what I do.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

The reason I think more importers / designers should join in the forums is threads like this.

I saw this thread; saw the desire for well priced road/commuter bikes with entry level components & disc brakes; and I was able to get one started and on the way.

So by late summer I will be able to have exactly the type of bike suggested here for the use discussed here.

The forums are a great place for the entire industry to exchange ideas and make sure more products meet the direct requests of the cycling public.

Thanks


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