# Cat 3 CX racer busted for testosterone.



## Ryder's (Oct 18, 2013)

Cat 3 Cyclocross Racer Daniel Baker Accepts USADA Sanction for Testosterone Use | Cyclocross Magazine ? Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos


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## Ryder's (Oct 18, 2013)

So how suspect are his results from the last few years ?


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## Ryder's (Oct 18, 2013)

Link no good


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

This guy is hardly a cheater and he hasn't even come close to winning anything.

This is really a little extreme.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

foto said:


> This guy is hardly a cheater and he hasn't even come close to winning anything.
> 
> This is really a little extreme.


Using supplemental testosterone in your mid 30's is a bit extreme. 

Likely was bragging to his buddies and was target tested


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Using supplemental testosterone in your mid 30's is a bit extreme.
> 
> Likely was bragging to his buddies and was target tested


If he was using supplements specifically to cheat at cycling I would have expected him to have won more than the occasional 35+ b race.


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

There is some local damage control going on up here in MA in regards to this....not a cheat...great guy.....prescribed med from his doctor....some team mates were aware of his situation....only thing he did wrong was not pursue a TUE....

This may all be true but with all the stories about doping out there and whatnot how could he not know he couldn't have it both ways and shouldn't compete? There is no TUE for what he was taking. I can only assume he knew but decided to take a chance and lost.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

ZoomBoy said:


> This may all be true but with all the stories about doping out there and whatnot how could he not know he couldn't have it both ways and shouldn't compete? There is no TUE for what he was taking. I can only assume he knew but decided to take a chance and lost.


Exactly.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I think this is great. If people get the idea that they can get tested without winning the race that's going to have a much more chilling effect on doping than anything else.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

foto said:


> If he was using supplements specifically to cheat at cycling I would have expected him to have won more than the occasional 35+ b race.


Not really, it is just testosterone not EPO.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

ZoomBoy said:


> There is some local damage control going on up here in MA in regards to this....not a cheat...great guy.....prescribed med from his doctor....some team mates were aware of his situation....only thing he did wrong was not pursue a TUE....
> 
> This may all be true but with all the stories about doping out there and whatnot how could he not know he couldn't have it both ways and shouldn't compete? There is no TUE for what he was taking. I can only assume he knew but decided to take a chance and lost.


He is 36 and likely goes to a quack "Longevity" doctor. They ran an IRMS test on him, which costs extra, so I expect on of his buddies turned him in. He was targeted

Getting a TUE for testosterone is almost impossible. While the quacks will write you a prescription in a second the reality is the testing to see if you really have an issue takes a long time and costs $$$

Nice guys dope, jerks dope.


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

not to mention even EPO won't turn you into a pro, it will give you say 10-20%
more then what you could do naturally. I could take EPO and wouldn't be winning
the TDF.


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## Ryder's (Oct 18, 2013)

Fireform said:


> I think this is great. If people get the idea that they can get tested without winning the race that's going to have a much more chilling effect on doping than anything else.


My sentiment exactly. Whether or not his 'script was medically necessary it will make some legit users and some cheaters thing twice.


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## ZoomBoy (Jan 28, 2004)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> He is 36 and likely goes to a quack "Longevity" doctor. They ran an IRMS test on him, which costs extra, so I expect on of his buddies turned him in. He was targeted
> 
> Getting a TUE for testosterone is almost impossible. While the quacks will write you a prescription in a second the reality is the testing to see if you really have an issue takes a long time and costs $$$
> 
> Nice guys dope, jerks dope.


I don't disagree with you at all. My point is if you were legitimately being treated for a condition that violated the rules why would you take the chance to be humiliated when you are a Cat3? Especially with all the press doping has gotten even in the weekend warrior ranks...it baffles me. 

He had to known he shouldn't compete and played the odds...


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

A big problem is that there is a great spectrum in what is considered "Low T". Depending on where this guy was in a training cycle or any number of other variables could have skewed his test results- especially if his doctor gave it to him based on one test. The whole youth regeneration movement is scary, and some legit doctors buy into it. The warnings on the Androgel commercial are enough to scare me away.

Not saying the guy was intentionally doping to get ahead in races. He might have gone to the doctor complaining of feeling tired, the doctor ran the tests, and this is what was prescribed (all in good faith). I can't imagine he didn't know he wasn't allowed to race with testosterone supplementation, and he was likely playing the odds that he wouldn't get caught. He would have never gotten a TUE, and his racing would have been over if he self-identified while seeking one. Someone obviously dropped the dime on him, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I still don't get why this is a good thing. Let's say he really did legitimately need the supplements. He should never again be allowed to enjoy the thrill of being in a bike race? He was a mid-pack slub that hasn't won anything since the 4s. Why does anyone care?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

A race license is a contract - by signing it, a rider agrees not to take banned substances. This guy did, so he cheated. Plain and simple. Winning or not has nothing to do with it. If a pro racer dopes but crashes out of a race it doesn't mean he wasn't cheating.



foto said:


> This guy is hardly a cheater and he hasn't even come close to winning anything.
> 
> This is really a little extreme.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> I still don't get why this is a good thing. Let's say he really did legitimately need the supplements. He should never again be allowed to enjoy the thrill of being in a bike race? He was a mid-pack slub that hasn't won anything since the 4s. Why does anyone care?


Lance only had 1 ball. He should have been allowed to use testosterone.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> If he was using supplements specifically to cheat at cycling I would have expected him to have won more than the occasional 35+ b race.


You are obviously another subscriber that doping makes somebody a pro. It doesn't but it does give you 10-20% more than you would have naturally. Do some research please.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> I still don't get why this is a good thing. Let's say he really did legitimately need the supplements. He should never again be allowed to enjoy the thrill of being in a bike race? He was a mid-pack slub that hasn't won anything since the 4s. Why does anyone care?


Medically there are a few reasons that somebody in their 30s who is capable to train and race to begin with would need to use synthetic testosterone. People care because it's cheating. Do you routinely steal from your employer as well? Why not reveal where you work, bet they would appreciate the "heads up".


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> Medically there are a few reasons that somebody in their 30s who is capable to train and race to begin with would need to use synthetic testosterone. People care because it's cheating. Do you routinely steal from your employer as well? Why not reveal where you work, bet they would appreciate the "heads up".


What are you talking about stealing for? My question is: If he has a medical reason, such as a pituitary gland problem, should he be allowed to race?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> You are obviously another subscriber that doping makes somebody a pro. It doesn't but it does give you 10-20% more than you would have naturally. Do some research please.


Please do not cast aspersions or make assumptions and speak to the post and not the poster.

kthx!


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

foto said:


> What are you talking about stealing for? My question is: If he has a medical reason, such as a pituitary gland problem, should he be allowed to race?


how did his TUE request go?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

den bakker said:


> how did his TUE request go?


Can you get a TUE for testosterone? I heard it's really hard. Can you get a TUE if you are a transgender male?


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## peabody (Oct 17, 2005)

foto said:


> Please do not cast aspersions or make assumptions and speak to the post and not the poster.
> 
> kthx!


to the post, taking drugs won't make you win every race you enter, it will allow you to
be better then you naturally would be....k...thx


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

foto said:


> Please do not cast aspersions or make assumptions and speak to the post and not the poster.
> 
> kthx!


I think the point is that doping alone doesn't make you a winner at any level. I could take any number of performance enhancing drugs and still be slow. So your assertion that he couldn't be cheating because he hasn't win anything significant is wrong. 
Of course your motivation may simply be to draw attention to yourself.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> What are you talking about stealing for? My question is: If he has a medical reason, such as a pituitary gland problem, should he be allowed to race?


Get a TUE then, but if you are that sick that you require Rx therapy I doubt racing is at the top of the priority list and as has already been noted it is very difficult to get a TUE for Testosterone so clearly USADA/WADA does not view it as a medical need.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> Get a TUE then, but if you are that sick that you require Rx therapy I doubt racing is at the top of the priority list and as has already been noted it is very difficult to get a TUE for Testosterone so clearly USADA/WADA does not view it as a medical need.



Thanks for answering my question. So anyone taking supplementary testosterone for any reason should be banned from amateur racing for life, according to Mr. Scary.

Just playing devils advocate, but perhaps he figured as a lousy Cat 3 he won't get tested so why should he go through all the effort, the invasion of privacy, to get a TUE when he isn't in contention for anything? ie: he isn't trying to gain a performance advantage.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

SpeedNeeder said:


> I think the point is that doping alone doesn't make you a winner at any level. I could take any number of performance enhancing drugs and still be slow. So your assertion that he couldn't be cheating because he hasn't win anything significant is wrong.
> Of course your motivation may simply be to draw attention to yourself.


You realize this is a discussion board, right? A place to have discussions?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> Thanks for answering my question. So anyone taking supplementary testosterone for any reason should be banned from amateur racing for life, according to Mr. Scary.
> 
> Just playing devils advocate, but perhaps he figured as a lousy Cat 3 he won't get tested so why should he go through all the effort, the invasion of privacy, to get a TUE when he isn't in contention for anything? ie: he isn't trying to gain a performance advantage.


It's according to USADA/WADA not me, otherwise you need a TUE. It's baffling this is so difficult to understand but I'm guessing you are using some questionable supplements and seeking a sympathetic ear.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> It's according to USADA/WADA not me, otherwise you need a TUE. It's baffling this is so difficult to understand but I'm guessing you are using some questionable supplements and seeking a sympathetic ear.


What about transgender males? Should they be banned from cycling? How about other sports? Softball is an olympic sport, so is curling, swimming, and volleyball. So someone with functionally low testosterone, for whatever reason, should _for the rest of their life_ be barred from participating in any old beer league competition because of WADA?


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> What about transgender males? Should they be banned from cycling? How about other sports? Softball is an olympic sport, so is curling, swimming, and volleyball. So someone with functionally low testosterone, for whatever reason, should _for the rest of their life_ be barred from participating in any old beer league competition because of WADA?


Yes they should.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

foto said:


> What about transgender males? Should they be banned from cycling? How about other sports? Softball is an olympic sport, so is curling, swimming, and volleyball. So someone with functionally low testosterone, for whatever reason, should _for the rest of their life_ be barred from participating in any old beer league competition because of WADA?


If that "beer league" has no specific rules about doping (e.g. not USAC), then they can compete. If the race sanctioning body prohibits the use of a substance (or a piece of equipment), then they can't compete. Simple as that.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> If that "beer league" has no specific rules about doping (e.g. not USAC), then they can compete. If the race sanctioning body prohibits the use of a substance (or a piece of equipment), then they can't compete. Simple as that.


I guess I am asking hypothetically. Since I am of the belief that rules are neither absolute nor inherently moral.

So, my follow up is this: is it _fair_ that a person who has undergone gender reassignment cannot compete in <strike>beer league</strike> Cat 3, even if that person will never be competitive? Is it _reasonable_ to ask a person with hypogonadism to submit their complete medical history to USADA to be reviewed before showing for a low key cross race?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> Can you get a TUE if you are a transgender male?


Only if their wheels and frame have the UCI sticker.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> They ran an IRMS test on him, which costs extra, so I expect on of his buddies turned him in. He was targeted


That's a possibility. Another possibility is that the man is using a cream or gel that is difficult to detect and the first tests detected nothing. The IRMS test was performed because, 

_Baker disclosed that he was taking synthetic testosterone in a therapeutic dose under the care of a physician during the sample collection_

Two things come to mind. First, since the guy had a prescription it is possible that he thought it was OK. I heard someone claim "My aderall is prescribed by a Dr so it's legal." 

Next, I wonder if any of the guys opponents even care that he was taking something. There's a midpack guy around here who beat colon cancer. He went through a few rounds of chemo. He races masters B 'cross. I can't imagine anyone would care if they found out that he was on some theraputic drug, something that helped him survive cancer and that he kept taking for an improved quality of life, something that happens to boost performance. I know it doesn't make a difference for USADA or WADA or USAC, but on some level it makes a difference when the doper is not crushing anyone. I certainly wouldn't care if I found out that this guy is taking something. 

^Not that either of those things make a difference for the sanction. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse, neither is the "who cares?" rebuttal. Just food for thought.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Local Hero said:


> ^Not that either of those things make a difference for the sanction. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse, neither is the "who cares?" rebuttal.


but those were some cool stories bro.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> I guess I am asking hypothetically. Since I am of the belief that rules are neither absolute nor inherently moral.
> 
> So, my follow up is this: is it _fair_ that a person who has undergone gender reassignment cannot compete in <strike>beer league</strike> Cat 3, even if that person will never be competitive? Is it _reasonable_ to ask a person with hypogonadism to submit their complete medical history to USADA to be reviewed before showing for a low key cross race?


There's a guy in my area who has some pituitary gland problems. They probably came from his 15 years of recreational drug use. His docs have prescribed all sorts of TRT for him, from testosterone to decadurabolin to other stuff. He doesn't do many sanctioned races; he just takes all the strava KOMs. He's one of the best climbers around. 

Beginning in early 2013 he went through several months of a TUE process for the TRT. His doc submitted several letters, ct head scans and even an fMRI. He says it was a long, protracted headache and ultimately, he was denied. When he told me that he said he wouldn't race any more. Alternatively he said that he quit the treatments. But the guy has a bit of a complicated relationship with the truth so I couldn't take his words at face value. 

Towards the end of the year he won a state championship. It was not on the road. I wont say if it was MTB, CX, or whatever, because it would be easy enough to identify the guy if you know my state. 

Somehow he's way worse than the Cat 3 guy in the story, right? We dislike him more for two reasons: 1) He wins. B) He got away with it. 



The silver lining here is that the guy no longer competes. He took a new career that has him traveling three out of four weeks every month. Also, I don't talk to him anymore.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

den bakker said:


> but those were some cool stories bro.


I hope nothing I said hurt your feelings.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm glad he was caught...cheating is cheating whether you're winning or not. Let's say my goal has been to score a top 10 finish this year and I wind up in 11th place but you have cheaters like this guy taking 8th place finishes. If he wasn't on the juice he'd have finished outside the top 10 making room for others who are competing naturally. Dopers suck!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> There's a midpack guy around here who beat colon cancer. He went through a few rounds of chemo. He races masters B 'cross. I can't imagine anyone would care if they found out that he was on some theraputic drug, something that helped him survive cancer and that he kept taking for an improved quality of life, something that happens to boost performance.


.....Cause Testosterone and HGH are sooooo good for Cancer. :idea:


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> .....Cause Testosterone and HGH are sooooo good for Cancer. :idea:


You've made a non point on a non issue. Surely there are performance enhancers which are not carcinogenic. 

Do we really care if a guy who finishes 14th out of 18 in the masters Bs took a beta 2 for his asthma? Is it the best use of money to test him?

What about an insulin dependent diabetic who never bothered to fill out the TUE, a guy who finishes dead last every race. Should he be tested/banned?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

What a bunch of sour grapes! Whaaaaa he stole my possible top 17th placing in the Masters B race at the Cape Cod Crabby Patty Criss Cross Hoedown presented by Tim's Video Repair!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> You've made a non point on a non issue. Surely there are performance enhancers which are not carcinogenic.
> 
> Do we really care if a guy who finishes 14th out of 18 in the masters Bs took a beta 2 for his asthma? Is it the best use of money to test him?
> 
> What about an insulin dependent diabetic who never bothered to fill out the TUE, a guy who finishes dead last every race. Should he be tested/banned?


Ban him! Wait, he was a diabetic AIDS cancer survivor who overcame a heroine addiction and two murder attempts through his love of cycling? And now he smokes an occasional blunt before a sport class MTB race and comes in top 30? THAT's CHEATING BAN HIM FOR LIFE!!!


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

foto said:


> What a bunch of sour grapes! Whaaaaa he stole my possible top 17th placing in the Masters B race at the Cape Cod Crabby Patty Criss Cross Hoedown presented by Tim's Video Repair!


As silly as it sounds, those of us less gifted (but clean) cyclists may actually care. No matter what the level, doping can steal meaningful results from a rider. It all depends on how you define meaningful and how you define success. We will never be ProTour, and our small pond may be the only pond we'll ever see, but we'd like to believe that those that finished before and after us obtained those results clean. I know enough world-class athletes to know that I don't have the genetic stuff, and I wasted too many years being lazy, but I'm not going to try to artificially balance the scales because I "deserve" better results and to hang with the big kids.

Life's tough. Wear a cup.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> You've made a non point on a non issue. Surely there are performance enhancers which are not carcinogenic.
> 
> Do we really care if a guy who finishes 14th out of 18 in the masters Bs took a beta 2 for his asthma? Is it the best use of money to test him?
> 
> What about an insulin dependent diabetic who never bothered to fill out the TUE, a guy who finishes dead last every race. Should he be tested/banned?


hard to keep up with the strawmen and hypotheticals. 

You realize there is Pro Team that is made of up all diabetics? Team Novo Nordisk. WADA has clearly outline information on Insulin TUE's http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/S...edical-info-Diabetes-Mellitus-2.0-2012-EN.pdf

Unlike the topic of this thread there are not hundreds of quack's prescribing insulin


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> As silly as it sounds, those of us less gifted (but clean) cyclists may actually care. No matter what the level, doping can steal meaningful results from a rider. It all depends on how you define meaningful and how you define success. We will never be ProTour, and our small pond may be the only pond we'll ever see, but we'd like to believe that those that finished before and after us obtained those results clean. I know enough world-class athletes to know that I don't have the genetic stuff, and I wasted too many years being lazy, but I'm not going to try to artificially balance the scales because I "deserve" better results and to hang with the big kids.
> 
> Life's tough. Wear a cup.


Thanks for this comment, sincerely. It actually educates me a little on why people care so much about this, since so many people are focused on results, and I guess not so interested in the actual experience of the race.

If results are the only thing that people enter a bike race for, I can see why they have no empathy for a person who takes X medication to correct Y condition and didn't go through the TUE process, they are stealing my result! If people cared less about results and more about the _experience of racing a bike_ they would realize that these low category "cheaters" aren't stealing anything from them. They are simply participating, some of them are miserable people who can't participate without getting a good result, pity them. Some are honestly just ignorant and looking for some of the thrill and camaraderie that comes from amateur bike racing.

Keep in mind that dopers or no, we are all one upgrade away from pack fill. If your bad result ruined your day, regardless of your ride, you are going to be sad a lot...

As the great Warren Oats once said, "Lighten up, Francis".


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Come to think of it, I actually hate sandbaggers a lot more than I hate dopers, since theoretically the aspiring pro doper will eventually go away from my crappy category, while the sandbaggers never seem to leave...


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

foto said:


> Thanks for this comment, sincerely. It actually educates me a little on why people care so much about this, since so many people are focused on results, and I guess not so interested in the actual experience of the race.
> 
> If results are the only thing that people enter a bike race for, I can see why they have no empathy for a person who takes X medication to correct Y condition and didn't go through the TUE process, they are stealing my result! If people cared less about results and more about the _experience of racing a bike_ they would realize that these low category "cheaters" aren't stealing anything from them. They are simply participating, some of them are miserable people who can't participate without getting a good result, pity them. Some are honestly just ignorant and looking for some of the thrill and camaraderie that comes from amateur bike racing.
> 
> ...


A good result can be highly motivating. Wear the leader's jersey in any race for one day and you'll experience it. A good result can open the door to other good results, simply because the person believes it is possible and is willing to try.

At the end of the race, if I put everything into it and raced "smart", I'm usually satisfied. My result is what I earned. I may not be happy that my performance wasn't better, which usually provides motivation for better training or preparation. Being pack fodder is usually not good enough for me, as I generally like to have an impact on the race.

I race with guys that are up to 25 years younger than me. They're in the prime of their lives, and I'm somewhat beyond that. Some of them are far more gifted genetically than I am. Some have no family commitments or other significant obstructions to training. I get crushed often, so racing for the joy of racing is no novelty to me, it's reality.

But I'd like to know that when I finish 17th in the Cape Cod Crabby Patty Criss Cross Hoedown presented by Tim's Video Repair, everyone else above me got their results honestly, using natural gifts, luck, smarts, and hard work rather than chemical preparation. Let the best rider win, not the best chemist. I didn't deserve that 17th place, which implies entitlement to me, I *earned* it. I hope they earned theirs.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> A good result can be highly motivating. Wear the leader's jersey in any race for one day and you'll experience it. A good result can open the door to other good results, simply because the person believes it is possible and is willing to try.
> 
> At the end of the race, if I put everything into it and raced "smart", I'm usually satisfied. My result is what I earned. I may not be happy that my performance wasn't better, which usually provides motivation for better training or preparation. Being pack fodder is usually not good enough for me, as I generally like to have an impact on the race.
> 
> ...


^^ Can't argue with that.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> A good result can be highly motivating. Wear the leader's jersey in any race for one day and you'll experience it. A good result can open the door to other good results, simply because the person believes it is possible and is willing to try.
> 
> At the end of the race, if I put everything into it and raced "smart", I'm usually satisfied. My result is what I earned. I may not be happy that my performance wasn't better, which usually provides motivation for better training or preparation. Being pack fodder is usually not good enough for me, as I generally like to have an impact on the race.
> 
> ...


Very, very well said.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

foto said:


> Thanks for answering my question. So anyone taking supplementary testosterone for any reason should be banned from amateur racing for life, according to Mr. Scary.
> 
> Just playing devils advocate, but perhaps he figured as a lousy Cat 3 he won't get tested so why should he go through all the effort, the invasion of privacy, to get a TUE when he isn't in contention for anything? ie: he isn't trying to gain a performance advantage.


he figured he'd never be tested because he isn't winning and isn't elite. Maybe he needs a little help in the boudoir


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> hard to keep up with the strawmen and hypotheticals.
> 
> You realize there is Pro Team that is made of up all diabetics? Team Novo Nordisk. WADA has clearly outline information on Insulin TUE's http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/S...edical-info-Diabetes-Mellitus-2.0-2012-EN.pdf
> 
> Unlike the topic of this thread there are not hundreds of quack's prescribing insulin


I know all about Team Type 1. 

I also know an insulin dependent diabetic cyclocross racer who has not even considered a TUE. Why bother? He's just racing for fun, finishing midpack in the single speed Bs. 

Yet insulin is one of the body's most anabolic muscle-building hormones. Perhaps this guy's 9th place finish (out of 14) is robbing a clean athlete of a top ten result!

Should I report him?


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

atpjunkie said:


> he figured he'd never be tested because he isn't winning and isn't elite. Maybe he needs a little help in the boudoir


OK, but what's really the difference between using a substance for performance enhancing purposes or using the same substance (in the same manner) for other reasons when we're talking about bike racing? The end result is the same. The flip side of the Basso defense ("I wasn't intending to dope") doesn't hold water any more than the original did.

In the "Is this man a doper?" thread, I actually respect the guy for being open about what he was using and why he was using it. With it out in the open, and him trying to work through the system, everything was above the table. These other guys? Not so much. If you've raced and/or followed pro cycling for more than a week and/or watched Oprah, you should be well aware of HGH, testosterone, and EPO, and how they are treated by the sanctioning bodies- especially in the post-Armstrong era.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Alaska Mike said:


> OK, but what's really the difference between using a substance for performance enhancing purposes or using the same substance (in the same manner) for other reasons when we're talking about bike racing? The end result is the same. The flip side of the Basso defense ("I wasn't intending to dope") doesn't hold water any more than the original did.
> 
> In the "Is this man a doper?" thread, I actually respect the guy for being open about what he was using and why he was using it. With it out in the open, and him trying to work through the system, everything was above the table. These other guys? Not so much. If you've raced and/or followed pro cycling for more than a week and/or watched Oprah, you should be well aware of HGH, testosterone, and EPO, and how they are treated by the sanctioning bodies- especially in the post-Armstrong era.


Because there's bike racing, and then there's bike racing.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> Come to think of it, I actually hate sandbaggers a lot more than I hate dopers, since theoretically the aspiring pro doper will eventually go away from my crappy category, while the sandbaggers never seem to leave...


Sandbaggers who dope should be cast into a lake of fire.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

foto said:


> Come to think of it, I actually hate sandbaggers a lot more than I hate dopers, since theoretically the aspiring pro doper will eventually go away from my crappy category, while the sandbaggers never seem to leave...


Just enjoy the racing experience.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

SpeedNeeder said:


> Just enjoy the racing experience.


Sure thing!!!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I know all about Team Type 1.
> 
> I also know an insulin dependent diabetic cyclocross racer who has not even considered a TUE. Why bother? He's just racing for fun, finishing midpack in the single speed Bs.
> 
> ...


You are welcome to pretend diabetes is the same as "Low T", but most doctors will laugh at you. One is largely a marketing campaign with no consensus on what it actually means and the other is clear. If your fasting glucose is above a certain level all doctors will agree you are diabetic.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> If your fasting glucose is above a certain level all doctors will agree you are diabetic.



No they won't. It's a diabetic indicator, but it is not a definitive diagnosis. There are other reasons for an elevated fasting glucose. Further testing would be required to have a definitive diagnosis.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

88 rex said:


> No they won't. It's a diabetic indicator, but it is not a definitive diagnosis. There are other reasons for an elevated fasting glucose. Further testing would be required to have a definitive diagnosis.


Oh brother.....the point is there generally agreed upon process to determine if a person is diabetic, this does not exist for "Low T" where just lack of sleep can result in a 15% drop. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> .....Cause Testosterone and HGH are sooooo good for Cancer. :idea:


no, but EPO is great for recovery from cancer treatment


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Oh brother.....the point is there generally agreed upon process to determine if a person is diabetic, this does not exist for "Low T" where just lack of sleep can result in a 15% drop. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges


There is a generally agreed upon process, but what you initially said is not it. ALL doctors would agree that an elevated fasting glucose is insufficient to officially diagnose diabetes.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> You've made a non point on a non issue. Surely there are performance enhancers which are not carcinogenic.
> 
> Do we really care if a guy who finishes 14th out of 18 in the masters Bs took a beta 2 for his asthma? Is it the best use of money to test him?
> 
> What about an insulin dependent diabetic who never bothered to fill out the TUE, a guy who finishes dead last every race. Should he be tested/banned?


EPO is a treatment for Cancer patients. Cancer therapies tend to mess with your RBCs and Bone arrow so EPO helps Cancer survivors rebuild their RBCs to normal levels


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Oh brother.....the point is there generally agreed upon process to determine if a person is diabetic, this does not exist for "Low T" where just lack of sleep can result in a 15% drop. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges


Low T is also known as 'getting older' in the real world. It's just a way the pharm industry can push performance enhancers on regular men who have lost a step in the boudoir to aging. So these guys ***** about cyclists, or football players, or baseball players but left their wives for a girl 10 years her junior and are 'putting it to her' with the aid of T and ******


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Alaska Mike said:


> A good result can be highly motivating. Wear the leader's jersey in any race for one day and you'll experience it. A good result can open the door to other good results, simply because the person believes it is possible and is willing to try.
> 
> At the end of the race, if I put everything into it and raced "smart", I'm usually satisfied. My result is what I earned. I may not be happy that my performance wasn't better, which usually provides motivation for better training or preparation. Being pack fodder is usually not good enough for me, as I generally like to have an impact on the race.
> 
> ...


I had similar experience a few years back. In my 40s and a Clyde and was finishing consistently top 10 racing guys in their 20s and 40 lbs (or more) lighter than me. I broke the top 5 a few times and even made top 3 in a couple races. I was typically in the second group behind the 3 fastest guys so my average placing was 5th or 6th. I felt I earned those placings, but really didn't care about the guys beating me. I knew they'd all go on to elite levels and I was just an old guy having fun.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Oh brother.....the point is there generally agreed upon process to determine if a person is diabetic, this does not exist for "Low T" where just lack of sleep can result in a 15% drop. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges


I think the real debate here is the TUE process and how strict it should be for non-performers (as in people, not substances). So the hypothetical is valid to this discussion, in my opinion.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

88 rex said:


> There is a generally agreed upon process, but what you initially said is not it. ALL doctors would agree that an elevated fasting glucose is insufficient to officially diagnose diabetes.


The ADA used to have slightly different diagnostic criteria than the AACE, but they seem to have been brought into agreement recently. One diagnostic criterium is 2 FPG levels of 126 mg/dl or more, taken on 2 separate days, combined with an a1c of 6.5 or higher, but a oral glucose tolerance test is also strongly recommended for a definitive diagnosis. And most responsible doctors would order a glucose tolerance test to confirm the other two criteria.

I can tell you that on most days, my morning FPG is usually between 80-100 mg/dl, but occasionally it can go into the 130s. Other factors can contribute to elevated PG levels.

But one FPG test, standing alone, doesn't warrant a definitive diagnosis under either protocol. Neither does an a1c in excess of 6.5 unless one or more of the other criteria are also met.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

foto said:


> I think the real debate here is the TUE process and how strict it should be for non-performers (as in people, not substances). So the hypothetical is valid to this discussion, in my opinion.


No, it really isn't. The reason a TUE for Test is so hard compared to say Insulin or asthma, is the lack of agreement on what constitutes low T. The vast majority of people that have it really are just getting old


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Oh brother.....the point is there generally agreed upon process to determine if a person is diabetic, this does not exist for "Low T" where just lack of sleep can result in a 15% drop. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges


Again you focus on a tangential issue, whether a diagnosis for hypogonadism is based on objective standards in comparison to a diabetes diagnosis. I wont argue on that point but I'm sure many urologists, research scientists, and other experts disagree with your position. 

The issue I'm raising is whether a Cat 3 diabetic who did not file for a TUE--either out of ignorance, apathy, or laziness--should get reported/hit with a two year ban. 

In my opinion that would be stupid. But at the same time, we have to draw the line somewhere. I'm not a black and white thinker and can see that the system isn't perfect. 

Let's not forget that insulin is extremely anabolic, even more so than testosterone. Body builders use insulin to build muscle.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> No, it really isn't. The reason a TUE for Test is so hard compared to say Insulin or asthma, is the lack of agreement on what constitutes low T. The vast majority of people that have it really are just getting old


I agree that testosterone drops naturally with age. 

What is the objective criteria for an asthma diagnosis?


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

And there are other prohibited (yet commonly prescribed) drugs, such as the central nervous system stimulants ritalin and aderall. 

Can anyone find an objective diagnosis for ADHD? LOL If someone wants to complain that testosterone is over prescribed they should take a look at what pediatricians use to mellow out young boys with high energy.

These drugs can be abused and may in fact enhance performance. 

Should we ban a back of the pack college kid who failed to fill out his TUE? What about a grown man who has trouble concentrating at work, gets a prescription, and then notices that he can ride a little harder when he takes three times the normal dose?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> No, it really isn't. The reason a TUE for Test is so hard compared to say Insulin or asthma, is the lack of agreement on what constitutes low T. The vast majority of people that have it really are just getting old


Maybe you are having a debate with yourself, then? I won't speak for others, but for me the point of discussion here is whether the invasion of privacy and general headache of the TUE process is appropriate for guys who fail to break top 10 in low-category weekend warrior bike racing.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

foto said:


> Maybe you are having a debate with yourself, then? I won't speak for others, but for me the point of discussion here is whether the invasion of privacy and general headache of the TUE process is appropriate for guys who fail to break top 10 in low-category weekend warrior bike racing.


And more generally, if amateurs should be held to the same standards as pros.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

foto said:


> Maybe you are having a debate with yourself, then? I won't speak for others, but for me the point of discussion here is whether the invasion of privacy and general headache of the TUE process is appropriate for guys who fail to break top 10 in low-category weekend warrior bike racing.


And my point is for most cases the TUE process is fairly simple as there are well established parameters. For testosterone this is not the case, resulting in it being pushed by quacks on 30 years olds looking for an edge


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Train harder and race smarter. Show'em your real balls are better than their fake balls.

There is also the classic, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". 

Seriously, there needs to be some kind of line between 35+ year old local "hero" and elite level racing. There is a difference. No matter how serious you are, if you are not making a living by riding, racing is for fun. 

While I have good and bad memories of racing, most of the "fun" was in traveling to and from the race, training rides, suffering, and the drunkenness after. In other words, it is the experience - not the results. As I have aged, riding is an escape from the world. I don't think a 2 year suspension for this type of situation improves cycling's image or furthers the interests of (real) competitive cycling.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> And more generally, if amateurs should be held to the same standards as pros.


if you need a Rx to get through life, then competition should not be your main concern. The two guys arguing are most likely on some Rx that is a banned substance. To paraphrase a line you will hear occasionally "I'm on my meds and feeling much better now".


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> if you need a Rx to get through life, then competition should not be your main concern. The two guys arguing are most likely on some Rx that is a banned substance. To paraphrase a line you will hear occasionally "I'm on my meds and feeling much better now".


so much win right here. By the way, since you are so pissed about mid-pack cheaters I can assume you are a seething misanthrope who has never been good at anything and you blame everyone else for your failure.

Hey! These aspersions and personal attacks are hilarious!


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

foto said:


> so much win right here. By the way, since you are so pissed about mid-pack cheaters I can assume you are a seething misanthrope who has never been good at anything and you blame everyone else for your failure.
> 
> Hey! These aspersions and personal attacks are hilarious!


Sure, anybody who thinks his opponents should also play by the rules must be a seething misanthrope. I guess that makes sense on your planet.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Fireform said:


> Sure, anybody who thinks his opponents should also play by the rules must be a seething misanthrope. I guess that makes sense on your planet.


Exactly. Making generalizations about a person's motives or character based upon their position in a discussion makes no sense, and is kind of offense. Glad you are picking up the nuance.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

foto said:


> Exactly. Making generalizations about a person's motives or character based upon their position in a discussion makes no sense, and is kind of offense. Glad you are picking up the nuance.


If you don't like the standards established then go work for WADA and change them. As for me, I believe in clean sport and while my life isn't based on my race results I do find it humorous that everytime they test a Masters field a positive seems to be drawn which speaks volumes. I am also keenly interested in the trans gender therapy you keep referencing...:thumbsup:


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> I don't think a 2 year suspension for this type of situation improves cycling's image or furthers the interests of (real) competitive cycling.


Well spoken for the business case.


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## SpeedNeeder (Aug 19, 2013)

foto said:


> ...I can assume you are a seething misanthrope who has never been good at anything and you blame everyone else for your failure... These aspersions and personal attacks are hilarious!


Interesting commentary!


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

To be honest, I wish it wasn't necessary to treat amateur racers like pros when it comes to doping. But there are those that have chosen to make it a problem, and it needs to be dealt with in a most direct way. 

Got popped for an OTC cold medicine? I'm not too worried about you. 
Got popped for something out of the Postal cookbook? You should be banned for life.

The problem is, when it comes to WADA/ADAs/TUEs/whatever, where exactly do you draw the line? These guys with high disposable income and low ethical standards make it very difficult to say.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Mr. Scary said:


> If you don't like the standards established then go work for WADA and change them. As for me, I believe in clean sport and while my life isn't based on my race results I do find it humorous that *everytime they test a Masters field a positive seems to be drawn which speaks volumes*. I am also keenly interested in the trans gender therapy you keep referencing...:thumbsup:


I'll ignore the personal attacks in your other post and respond to the bold here. 

If my memory is correct, 26 masters were tested in my district in 2012/2013. Most were trackies going to nationals, worlds, or the Pan American Games. Zero positives.

It's not all bad news. 


Alaska Mike said:


> To be honest, I wish it wasn't necessary to treat amateur racers like pros when it comes to doping. But there are those that have chosen to make it a problem, and it needs to be dealt with in a most direct way.
> 
> Got popped for an OTC cold medicine? I'm not too worried about you.
> Got popped for something out of the Postal cookbook? You should be banned for life.
> ...


At the same time, if a an amateur who is not subject to the biological passport has enough money he can transfuse his own blood without fear of ever coming up positive.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

crit_boy said:


> I don't think a 2 year suspension for this type of situation improves cycling's image or furthers the interests of (real) competitive cycling.


Right. 

Should I report the mid-pack diabetic who has not bothered to fill out a TUE?



Mr. Scary said:


> if you need a Rx to get through life, then competition should not be your main concern.


Tell it to Norvo Nordisc.
Team Novo Nordisk -


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## MarshallH1987 (Jun 17, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Right.
> 
> Should I report the mid-pack diabetic who has not bothered to fill out a TUE?
> 
> ...


Exactly!

Insulin is the most anabolic thing around, it blows testosterone out of the water. The only real side is that if you use too much you can go into a coma, other than that, not much. It is also available without a prescription in many forms, so if anybody wants to boost recovery...


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Alaska Mike said:


> The problem is, when it comes to WADA/ADAs/TUEs/whatever, where exactly do you draw the line?


I just let WADA draw the line and don't concern myself further with applying my own personal biases as to what is and isn't doping.


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## Mr. Scary (Dec 7, 2005)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I just let WADA draw the line and don't concern myself further with applying my own personal biases as to what is and isn't doping.


This...

Also a local (to me) Masters racer was popped as a client of Joe Papp (EPO). What made it more interesting was the quantity of product he was buying, it was noted he was obviously distributing. So for those stating it's baseless to review in the amateur ranks or coming up with grey area cases (transgender or Team Norvo disk who I'm sure have TUEs if the racers are diabetics since they have to use needles and insulin on a daily basis), that's what WADA is for. I don't see the issue with getting rid of cheaters, and that applies to all walks of life.


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## mpre53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Right.
> 
> Should I report the mid-pack diabetic who has not bothered to fill out a TUE?
> 
> ...


Tell it Bobby Clarke, too, who is in the Hockey Hall of Fame. 

Insulin isn't "getting through" life for T-1 diabetics. It is life. Or death without it.


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## Alaska Mike (Sep 28, 2008)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I just let WADA draw the line and don't concern myself further with applying my own personal biases as to what is and isn't doping.


Exactly my point. Anything else (short of no standards) would be far more unworkable than what we have now. Apply the standards as uniformly as you can, given the resources you have. I'm not seeing ADAs go after the hardcore cold medicine amateur doping rings, but rather the racers that have strayed too far from the light. If it makes people think long and hard before doping because they see that people are getting busted, the effort is worth it. 

We've already gone past relying solely on honor and ethics, so fear of embarassment is the next step. Hopefully people get the hint.


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