# Core Muscle Training



## dochoot (Oct 27, 2009)

Just completed my first summer of biking at 44. Looking to start next year in better shape. It sounds like working on core muscles would be a good idea in the off season?

Is there a good reference around tailored to biking and core muscle training? I would be starting from scratch so I would need a detailed plan. Have some minor sciatica which is another reason to look into this.

Thanks in advance.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Your core muscles are just like any other muscles in your body. If you want them to get stronger, pick 2-3 exercises that you perform 2-3 days per week using <20 reps and progressive resistance (when it gets easy, you add more resistance). 

I'm a big fan of situps w/a dumbell behind the head, cable twists, and doing medicine ball throws w/a partner on a decline bench.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

CTS has a core training workout that seems pretty good. My core is so out of shape that I don't get very far with it.


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## dochoot (Oct 27, 2009)

What is "CTS"?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Carmichael Training Systems. DVD workout.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

no DVD's necessary, unless you got the $ and it's your thing.

a bit of time w/ the google and image search and youtube will yield lots and lots of how-to and what-to info.

also look into yoga - many of the poses are core killers and great for the structural problems that cyclists tend to have.


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## Becky (Jun 15, 2004)

Velonews had a pretty good yoga-based workout in their October 2009 issue.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Overhead squats are pretty awesome for core training as well. Bonus- your leg strength and balance will improve, too!


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> no DVD's necessary, unless you got the $ and it's your thing.
> 
> a bit of time w/ the google and image search and youtube will yield lots and lots of how-to and what-to info..


Exactly. And some of the core exercises from youtube are very motivating.  

Seriously, you'll find more exercises than you could ever do, but you can also vary them over the winter.

I've narrowed my winter strength training to the following:

1- arm row
Standing dumbell press
Prone plank
Bird dog
Ball crunch
Back extension
Leg raises (this is what I'm doing - http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/RectusAbdominis/WtVerticalLegHipRaise.html
Step-ups/lunge

This site http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html is an excellent resource for looking at alternative exercises for muscle groups.

I bought a Swissball that I use for my ballcrunch. You can also find many other core exercises using the ball. If you get one, be sure it is the right size!


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## dochoot (Oct 27, 2009)

Read a good review on the DVD and may try it. Never done the DVD thing before but may be a good place to start for a workout. Found this book also. Kind of like to have a reference.

Strength Training for Cyclists Book, 2nd Edition
posted by Editor - November 21, 2008 - 4pm EST
Fresh on the heels of their Strength Training for Triathletes book, VeloPress has released an updated 2nd edition of their Weight Training for Cyclists.

Intended to build core, leg and upper body strength so you can last longer and be stronger on the bike, this revised edition contains all-new illustrations for the exercises, a new chapter on stretching and warming up and expanded coverage of core strength and lower body exercises.

It’s written by Ken Doyle, a USCF licensed cycling coach and NATA certified exercise physiologist, and Eric Schmitz, who is similarly certified and the creator of two strength and conditioning DVDs.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

You might want to look here also.

http://www.newton-sports.com/index.php/order-products/newton-cycling-books-and-dvds.html

Check out Harvey's credentials.

From his information, I learned as much about what NOT to do as anything else.

In other words, exercises you can do but don't really need to spend your time on, at least for cycling.

I also think he understands "strength training" also. At least it makes sense to me.


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## dochoot (Oct 27, 2009)

Is the Quick Series Guide comprehensive enough? The $100 package seem a bit much.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

dochoot said:


> Is the Quick Series Guide comprehensive enough? The $100 package seem a bit much.


My hunch is "yes". 

I agree the $100 package is a little overkill. Really - who needs a bag.

Go over to roadbikerider.com as they sell the $100 package. They have a preview video and the table of contents from the book. That'll give you some ideas.


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## leon2982 (May 20, 2007)

*Weight Training for Cyclists*

Best decision I ever made in training for cycling. Ken Doyle and Eric Schmitz. Second edition. Retails for $19. Just enough to really make a difference and really works on cycling-specific areas. Can't say enough about how well thought out the book is and how cycling-specific the routines are.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

I find riding my bike does the trick.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

I'd beg to differ- I say at age 44, if he's not been on a consistent weight training program, that he's experienced a degree of age-related muscle atrophy that could easily be reversible though a well-designed resistance training program.


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## dochoot (Oct 27, 2009)

"Age related atrophy"?! and here I was feeling good about completing my first century ride.

Just kidding.  I do appreciate the tips. Going to get the book and dvd to start with.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Actually, bone density preservation and injury rehab and prevention are why I do some core work in the winter. Certainly doesn't make me faster on the bike, but it helps in other ways.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

dochoot said:


> "Age related atrophy"?! and here I was feeling good about completing my first century ride.
> 
> Just kidding.  I do appreciate the tips. Going to get the book and dvd to start with.


Yep... it happens as testosterone levels drop when you get older, which can start as young as 30. Being active definitely helps, but without resistance training, it's inevitable. Like Coolhand says... even if it doesn't help you on the bike (which is a debate for 11ty billion other threads), it's still a good idea for other health-related reasons.


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## NextTime (Oct 13, 2007)

Pilates.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I find riding my bike does the trick.


maybe you should tell that Armstrong guy to stop spending so much time in the gym this winter...


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Bodirocker - see ad at top left?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Coolhand said:


> Actually, bone density preservation and injury rehab and prevention are why I do some core work in the winter. Certainly doesn't make me faster on the bike, but it helps in other ways.


How is core work going to help with bone mineral density?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> maybe you should tell that Armstrong guy to stop spending so much time in the gym this winter...


Yep - let's all do what Lance says he does. 

It'll make you the next Lance.  

Best core work for cyclists?
- Sprints
- Standing starts
- Seated sprints & starts
- Hill climbs
- hard efforts out of saddle
- hard efforts in saddle


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## sabre104 (Dec 14, 2006)

And if you start drinking FRS ( just like Lance ) you will be racing and placing in the Grand Tours


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

sabre104 said:


> And if you start drinking FRS ( just like Lance ) you will be racing and placing in the Grand Tours


 

i gotta get me some


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> How is core work going to help with bone mineral density?


I do some higher impact/free weight stuff mixed in with the core and balance- sorry I was sparing with the details. After breaking my shoulder/tearing up the ligaments in a crash a few year ago been trying to work on building it up in the offseason- but even then its only once a week. The rest is on the bike.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> ...
> Best core work for cyclists?
> - Sprints
> - Standing starts
> ...


Yep, I do all that stuff at the appropriate times of the season. 

But I'm also convinced that it's not enough; as a person (not just a cyclist) I feel better, healthier, better aligned, better posture etc, when I do core work, yoga, weight work.

As Andrea said, whether that stuff helps cycling is an interesting debate. But it doesn't matter to me, since I am convinced it helps me be a healthy person, and there's more to life than the bike. I think Lance said something like that, too.

/ edited to include obligatory Lance pic


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I find riding my bike does the trick.


To be honest I hate the "ride your bike more" responses. Not all of us can do this 12 months of the year especially when snow is on ground 6 months of the year. Not all of us have the time to ride and train like a pro. I also have to believe that a little gym weight and core work can't hurt (even though I hate going to the gym).


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I'm a big fan of kettlebells for core workouts.
Otherwise, I do lots of MTI workouts on the trainer, in the winter.


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Creakyknees said:


> / edited to include obligatory Lance pic


Please re-edit and include more of this. KTHX!


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## sabre104 (Dec 14, 2006)

pervette


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## nismo73 (Jul 29, 2009)

I use these exercises to strengthen the core. #7 Toe-touch will work ab muscles you thought you never had!!!

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/artic...31b671d468d110VgnVCM10000013281eac____&page=1


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Core strength really does improve your performance. Me old guy who races. I've been at it again, hard, for about 6yrs this time around. Last season I was feeling pretty frustrated, like I wasn't as 'fast' as I thought I should be, given how hard I've been working at it. (don't we all feel this way?) One of my very successful teammates (UCI World TT Champ, 2009 50+ masters) asked me what I do for core strength training and I had to say.."Core strength? Wassat?...Nuttin, I guess" He suggested I start doing something, which I did last winter. 

With only some moderate intensity core excercises, I raced and trained much stronger this season...hung with younger guys who used to drop me on the climbs, won a few, dropped time on my TTs, etc. 

Last year's core training for me was just some simple crunches and diagonal crunches, usually done before I even got out of bed..Worked for me. I do about 35 straight up crunches, then thirty five left and right..Makes my belly burn and it's helped me be really pretty comfortable on long rides, too. I'd do a few leg lifts sporadically and some rear leg extensions (or whatever you'd call it, from on your knees with head on the floor, you alternatly kick your whole leg back as high as you can lift it)


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Yep - let's all do what Lance says he does.
> 
> It'll make you the next Lance.
> 
> ...


it's funny how advocates of so-called 'scientific approaches' to training recycle the same old dogmas. I"m not a professional coach, but I am a scientist. From that perspective, the thing that strikes me most about coaching advice is that almost all of it is based on anecdotal evidence. What is based on experimental investigations of training regimes would not pass peer-review in a high-quality scientific journal (one of the reasons why most are published in obscure highly specialized journals). The anecdotal evidence suffers from basic problems of self-selection bias and non-representative samples (as does most of the experimental published work, which typically involves such small samples that there's basic problems with statistical power). Just because Eddy Merckx advocated riding and more riding doesn't mean that viewpoint should be promoted as the final and indisputable truth. In the absence of good evidence either way, racers should be open to trying and combining different approaches and methods - and coaches should refrain from advocating their 'system' as the final word on the subject...


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> ............ The anecdotal evidence suffers from basic problems of self-selection bias and non-representative samples (as does most of the experimental published work, which typically involves such small samples that there's basic problems with statistical power).......


What? 

This is an internet thread, not a scientific journal.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

MerlinAma said:


> What?
> 
> This is an internet thread, not a scientific journal.


Forgot the


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> it's funny how advocates of so-called 'scientific approaches' to training recycle the same old dogmas. I"m not a professional coach, but I am a scientist. From that perspective, the thing that strikes me most about coaching advice is that almost all of it is based on anecdotal evidence. What is based on experimental investigations of training regimes would not pass peer-review in a high-quality scientific journal (one of the reasons why most are published in obscure highly specialized journals). The anecdotal evidence suffers from basic problems of self-selection bias and non-representative samples (as does most of the experimental published work, which typically involves such small samples that there's basic problems with statistical power). Just because Eddy Merckx advocated riding and more riding doesn't mean that viewpoint should be promoted as the final and indisputable truth. In the absence of good evidence either way, racers should be open to trying and combining different approaches and methods - and coaches should refrain from advocating their 'system' as the final word on the subject...


Well then point me to the evidence that off bike core strength work improve endurance cycling performance. (I have no argument with those that do it for other reasons).

You won't find any that supports this premise. It is in fact core strength = faster cyclist that is anecdotally based pseudoscience rather than the other way round.

There is a very strong evidence based principle in exercise physiology called the specificity principle. If you want to get better at doing something, then do it.

How much core strength do you actually think is needed to ride a bike? 
A: not much.

And if one's core wasn't up to the task of riding (faster or longer or both), then gee, I dunno, since those muscles will be taxed like every other exercised muscle is, in a manner specific to the desired need, they will adapt to the loads placed upon them. Just like our heart and legs do. And anything other muscle or group of muscles that gets worked when we ride harder.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

durkind said:


> To be honest I hate the "ride your bike more" responses. Not all of us can do this 12 months of the year especially when snow is on ground 6 months of the year. Not all of us have the time to ride and train like a pro. I also have to believe that a little gym weight and core work can't hurt (even though I hate going to the gym).


Where did I say "ride more"?

Riding your bike is best training for your needs to cope with the loads you happen to engage in, whether that's as a club rider or as a pro.

If however one decides to throw sensible training out the window and attempts to ramp up training far too quickly after a period of not riding, and not allowing the body to adapt properly, then it wouldn't surprise me to hear you have niggles, sore lower back etc. But that is poor training.

If you have a shitty winter, then do some indoor riding. Or move to a better climate  

Also, I am not against core work. Just pointing out that is has no basis as a method to improve performance on a bike over actually riding your bike.

If anything, it is the pros that have the time to do core work.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

there is evidence that core stability training increases force production (reviewed in: )

Willardson, Jeffrey M. "Core stability training: applications to sports conditioning programs." Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 21.3 (2007):979-985.

Additionally, there is evidence that core stability conditioning improves endurance performance by delaying the onset of or preventing lower back pain. For many cyclists, weak core strength is a significant factor in lower back pain, which plays a direct role in diminishing force production over the course of an endurance event. Lower back pain is also one of the top chronic conditions cyclists report, so there is an important preventive component to core stability exercise as well. Reviewed in, for example:

Akuthota, Venu, et al. "Core stability exercise principles." Current sports medicine reports 7.1 (2008):39-44.

There is also evidence that core stability exercises post-cycling improves recovery:

Navalta, James W., and Stephen P. Hrncir. "Core stabilization exercises enhance lactate clearance following high-intensity exercise." Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 21.4 (2007):1305-1309.

My bigger point was that coaches shouldn't simply dismiss off the bike conditioning because it doesn't fit into the traditional dogmas of cycling training.


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## TenaciousB (Oct 18, 2009)

www.crossfit.com


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Let's see:


stevesbike said:


> there is evidence that core stability training increases force production (reviewed in: )
> 
> Willardson, Jeffrey M. "Core stability training: applications to sports conditioning programs." Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 21.3 (2007):979-985.


It says nothing about endurance cycling performance AFAICT. 

Force production is not a limiter in endurance cycling.



stevesbike said:


> Additionally, there is evidence that core stability conditioning improves endurance performance by delaying the onset of or preventing lower back pain. For many cyclists, weak core strength is a significant factor in lower back pain, which plays a direct role in diminishing force production over the course of an endurance event. Lower back pain is also one of the top chronic conditions cyclists report, so there is an important preventive component to core stability exercise as well. Reviewed in, for example:
> 
> Akuthota, Venu, et al. "Core stability exercise principles." Current sports medicine reports 7.1 (2008):39-44.


That's what _you _are saying but I'm still not seeing the evidence for that wrt cycling in that reference (or others). Help me to find it. I'm open to the evidence.

I _suspect _that incorrect bike fit/positioning and not training in a manner suitable for ride/race goals is much more the problem when it comes to acute and chronic LB pain.



stevesbike said:


> There is also evidence that core stability exercises post-cycling improves recovery:
> 
> Navalta, James W., and Stephen P. Hrncir. "Core stabilization exercises enhance lactate clearance following high-intensity exercise." Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 21.4 (2007):1305-1309.


Or one could just spin on the bike easy for a few minutes  

And that is a reference to recovery from predominantly _anaerobic _activity in any case. Which is not the subject we are discussing here. For a track sprinter, then various strength exercises are and can be quite beneficial to performance. If done appropriately, although most work should still be done on the bike.



stevesbike said:


> My bigger point was that coaches shouldn't simply dismiss off the bike conditioning because it doesn't fit into the traditional dogmas of cycling training.


I'm not. But the evidence that it improves endurance cycling performance just isn't there.

I really don't know what a traditional dogma of cycling training is anyway. Is that like doing lots of slow miles to build a "base" kind of rubbish? Big gear hill repeats to "build strength"? Doing weights to improve ECP and other cycle training myths?


By all means do loads of core strength work. It has other benefits. I am not saying to anyone they shouldn't do it. But don't expect to ride faster as a result. That comes from smart training on a bike.


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> If you have a shitty winter, then do some indoor riding. Or move to a better climate


I partly agree that core work won't make me faster, exception is if I am a little stronger in core and certain upper body muscles, I will be possibly faster in a latter part of ride/race as I will be less fatigued in supporting my body on bike (yes I know more riding would alsodo this but just don't have the time). Also (I know this is blasphemy on this forum) but it helps tremendously in my mtbing in technical terrain. Nothing to prove this by but it is a feeling I have had when I put a little bit of strength training in routine (and I mean little--30-40 minutes 2-3 days a week).

Also I like my shitty winter when I am skiing 130 days a year. Backcountry skiing in the Tetons is great cross training and skiing waist deep powder isn't bad either!


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## percy (May 17, 2004)

I agree with Gnarly. I did a lot of core work as part of some physical therapy rehab I went through after an accident. Maybe it was just because I had lousy core strength to begin with, but I had the best cycling season I've ever had this year. Benefits include the fact that I'm more comfortable on the bike, which allows longer and more intense efforts, I've been unsually injury free, and I'm faster because I can accomodate a more aggressive position on the bike.

For me the key was upper back and lower back work. The ortho-surgeon who worked on me, who happens to be a competitive rider, turned me on to Mark Verstegen's Core Performance book. I highly recommend it.


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## SlowMo (Apr 18, 2006)

*What weight?*



MR_GRUMPY said:


> I'm a big fan of kettlebells for core workouts.
> Otherwise, I do lots of MTI workouts on the trainer, in the winter.


I keep hearing about these "kettlebells", so I've started researching these a bit more. I'm not going to go all out and buy every available size (up front, anyway), so what would you suggest to someone to use to get started as far as weight?


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

percy said:


> I agree with Gnarly. I did a lot of core work as part of some physical therapy rehab I went through after an accident. Maybe it was just because I had lousy core strength to begin with, but I had the best cycling season I've ever had this year. Benefits include the fact that I'm more comfortable on the bike, which allows longer and more intense efforts, I've been unsually injury free, and I'm faster because I can accomodate a more aggressive position on the bike.
> 
> For me the key was upper back and lower back work. The ortho-surgeon who worked on me, who happens to be a competitive rider, turned me on to Mark Verstegen's Core Performance book. I highly recommend it.


That's really cool you went well and persisted with work to improve. :thumbsup: Doing work to overcoming specific issues makes sense when returning from injury.

But if we are talking anecdotes, then I may as well relate mine.

In August 2007 I came out of hospital after a 4 month "stay" and minus a leg (trans tibial amputation), then spent another 14 months completely sedentary while I healed and then began to learn to stand and ultimately walk again with a prosthetic, eventually I was able to get on a bike on an indoor trainer. I managed 100W for about 10-minutes.

My core (along with much of my body) was exceptionally weakened by my lengthy forced sedentary period, much of it confined to bed or seated. I can recall being re-admitted to hospital due to crippling lower back spasms. No fun being unable to move, alone in your home and calling an ambulance to come and get you.

But I persisted with my bike riding.

On 20 August this year I set an all time PB* in a Maximal Aerobic Power test (cycling ramp test to exhaustion) and in October I completed Levi's 103 mile Granfondo in California with ~ 10,000 feet of climbing up some pretty nasty 10% grades. Took me a fraction over 6 hours. I won the Oceania paracycling road race and TT championships in May and took silver in same two events at my country's national championships. Two weeks ago I set my 3rd fastest ever 3km pursuit and made the finals of both the UCI World Masters Points and Scratch race championships. I even picked up prize money from some race wins/places at a track open carnival last weekend.

That's my experience with how the core adapts to cycling more powerfully. I get plenty of core work necessary to ride a bike powerfully, by riding a bike powerfully. But maybe I should do more eh?  


* and I mean all time, able bodied and since amputation - I have many years of power meter data pre and now post my amputation. And I wasn't an untrained rider before either with multiple podiums at State and National masters level and open race wins.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Not much.
I'm not into weight training, so I only wip around 30kg. It's just enough for an old guy like me to stay "loose". I'm not sure if any "normal" cyclist needs more than 50 kg.
I've seen pictures of Armstrong with some pretty large stuff, but that's just nuts.
I'm not trying to build muscle. Just trying to keep the stuff I've got from going "bad" in the wintertime.


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## mr clean (Jan 5, 2006)

IF YOU HAVE BACK PAIN FROM CYCLING PLEASE READ THIS!!!

The people that advocate that core work doesn't help your performance have never suffered pain, a back injury or trauma as result of cycling.

I raced for over 15 years and had the mindset that only riding the bike would make me faster. My coach at the time said that was all I should do. 

Once I hit 36 I seemed to stagnate and not get any better and felt like I lost the power I once had. Then in September of 2007 I had a twitch in my back while mountain biking that didn't feel right. That night I woke up in excruciating pain. The pain continued for months. I took pain killers and sleeping pills trying to sleep. The doctors said I had DDD (degenerative disk disease) and I should give up cycling. I tried to keep riding but it was no fun and my back continued to hurt like hell. 

This continued for 1 1/2 years before I found a PT in the Hartford area that truly knew what the problem was. All of those years hunched over that bike with no stretching and weight work had finally caught up with me. My core was weak. My hip flexors were so tight it affected my posture and put me in that "hunched over" position. The combination of the two were straining by lower back. Sitting at a desk eight hours a day only amplified the problem. 

I was given a lot of exercises on the ball to improve my core strength and get those hip flexors stretched back out. The pain started going away. I moved on to the Roman chair to work my lower back and obliques. Today I am doing 3X reps with 80# of free weights on my back and 40# on my obliques. I can almost do 300# on the back extension machine now. I also mix in a lot of ab work and upper/lower body strength training. I hit the gym 3X a week for my core working and afterwords I do one night of legs, one of chest/upper back, and one night of arms. Each night's workout only takes an hour to 1 1/2 hours. 

The changes for me have been remarkable. I was only able to sustain 260 watts for one hour. Now I can do over 300. My sprinting and accelerating ability is really good again. I don't get fatigued on long rides. So what if I'm 5 pounds heavier? It's muscle making power!

Think about it? Your core connects your legs to your arms. A weak core will not allow you to put maximum power to the pedals. Having a weak core causes back pain since your are resisting the pedaling motion. We've all seen the guys on the group rides swaying and moving their upper bodies all around. Some are pedal stroke related but most are from a weak core. 

So to finish up my novel, if you are over 30 looking for a coach consider one who caters to masters racers or one that does not dismiss core/weight training.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

mr clean said:


> So to finish up my novel, if you are over 30 looking for a coach consider one who caters to masters racers or one that does not dismiss core/weight training.


It's still an anecdote and you are attributing problems and solution with personal bias. e.g. how do we know you had a good bike fit (poor bike fit is likely to be the main reason those riders you see sway all over their machines)? And you talked about all those years in a chair. Perhaps bad ergonomics for all those years was the real problem and it was your cycling that delayed the onset of your troubles? You can't actually know for sure.

I think if you are considering a coach, one that relies on evidence based principles would better serve you than one who just relies on beliefs.

By the way, I don't think anyone here dismisses core/weight training. Just not as a method to increase sustainable aerobic cycling power.


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## mr clean (Jan 5, 2006)

I guess we can agree to disagree here. You can't build up you hip flexors to overpower your back by sitting in a chair, but you can by cycling. Cycling does have physical benefits, but it does create muscle imbalances and sometimes that will create injury if you don't work the opposing muscle groups. 

I don't think bike fit has anything to do with riders upper bodies moving all over the bike either. That movement is your body trying to counteract the torque being put into your torso. You can see it in the pro ranks when a rider in a long breakaway tires.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

+gazillion


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## Raven1911 (Apr 28, 2002)

mr clean said:


> I guess we can agree to disagree here. You can't build up you hip flexors to overpower your back by sitting in a chair, but you can by cycling. Cycling does have physical benefits, but it does create muscle imbalances and sometimes that will create injury if you don't work the opposing muscle groups.
> 
> I don't think bike fit has anything to do with riders upper bodies moving all over the bike either. That movement is your body trying to counteract the torque being put into your torso. You can see it in the pro ranks when a rider in a long breakaway tires.



Well spoken!

Alex, the body as a whole works together. You know as well as anyone with your rehab. You use tremendous amount of core strength when doing any cycling, running, throwing, etc. Core is everything from your nipples to your knees. Hips are our main power generators. If you don't have a strong platform from which to cycle you won't generate as much power. Doing more cycling will make your core stronger but on ly to a certain point. The body is a master at compensating and creating imbalances, which cause injury and weakness. Training the core helps improve imbalances and strengthen weaker muscles and improve efficiency of the body.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Raven1911 said:


> You use tremendous amount of core strength when doing any cycling,


Evidence or just guessing? I would suggest we don't need all that much core strength to ride a bike. People often forget how low the forces are when cycling. 

And even if one did improve the strength of their core musculature, there is no correlation between strength and endurance of muscles.



Raven1911 said:


> Doing more cycling will make your core stronger but on ly to a certain point.


Yep, to the point that you need. You are right, the body is remarkable and it will adapt as necessary to the strains and stresses.



Raven1911 said:


> Training the core helps improve imbalances and strengthen weaker muscles and improve efficiency of the body.


There is no evidence that training your core will improve your efficiency. There is very little evidence that any training will impact cycling efficiency in trained cyclists.

Again, I have no issue with people doing these sorts of exercises for all sorts of good reasons (heck I've done plenty of yoga myself) but claims that they will make you more powerful/efficient on a bike just don't stack up.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Evidence or just guessing? I would suggest we don't need all that much core strength to ride a bike. People often forget how low the forces are when cycling.
> 
> And even if one did improve the strength of their core musculature, there is no correlation between strength and endurance of muscles.
> 
> ...


Listening to you is one reason I wouldn't pay $$ for a coach.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2010)

MerlinAma said:


> Listening to you is one reason I wouldn't pay $$ for a coach.


Amen to that.

It is tiresome.

All over every cycling forum you find, always the same.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Windermere said:


> Amen to that.
> 
> It is tiresome.
> 
> All over every cycling forum you find, always the same.


Yep, I am consistently evidenced based, not belief based. I can't help it if you are bored by the evidence (or lack of).

I find it incredibly tiresome that people seem to think that their unsupported beliefs and anecdotes are evidence that something is right.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Yep, I am consistently evidenced based, not belief based. I can't help it if you are bored by the evidence (or lack of).
> 
> I find it incredibly tiresome that people seem to think that their unsupported beliefs and anecdotes are evidence that something is right.


On the other hand, some if us have ridden long enough to know exactly what improves our riding. 
Do I need a double blind scientific study to tell me that eating a quart of ice cream a day will make me gain weight? I don't think so. I learned that from experience.
So never mind. I'll find my own way.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

*Agree with Andrea138*



Andrea138 said:


> I'd beg to differ- I say at age 44, if he's not been on a consistent weight training program, that he's experienced a degree of age-related muscle atrophy that could easily be reversible though a well-designed resistance training program.


Cycling alone may help cardio and some strength related moves, isolation of certain muscles can make them stronger. A statement like "Just riding your bike is all u need" is pretty lame advice!


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

MerlinAma said:


> On the other hand, some if us have ridden long enough to know exactly what improves our riding.
> Do I need a double blind scientific study to tell me that eating a quart of ice cream a day will make me gain weight? I don't think so. I learned that from experience.
> So never mind. I'll find my own way.


Except that there is evidence to show that consuming more calories than one metabolises results in weight gain, so your personal experience is backed by the available evidence. The fact that you don't "need" the evidence to demonstrate this doesn't discount the validity of the evidence.

Yet despite the evidence not supporting a range of cycling training myths, they still persist and people still believe them.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

King Arthur said:


> Cycling alone may help cardio and some strength related moves, isolation of certain muscles can make them stronger. A statement like "Just riding your bike is all u need" is pretty lame advice!


If you want to become more aerobically powerful on a bike, then riding a bike is the most effective means by which one does this. But one has to train well on a bike to achieve this (as well as eat and recover well). I am not talking JRA.

However, and this seems to be glossed over by many, if you want to do other exercise by all means there is nothing wrong with that and it can be good for lots of things. It's just not what's going to make you more aerobically powerful on a bicycle, that's my point.

I would never tell anyone to not do core work, because there might be many good reasons for them to do so. However if they ask "will core work help me produce more sustainable aerobic power?", then I'm afraid the answer is "it's unlikely and unsupported by the evidence".


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Indirect benefits at best*



Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> If you want to become more aerobically powerful on a bike, then riding a bike is the most effective means by which one does this. But one has to train well on a bike to achieve this (as well as eat and recover well). I am not talking JRA.
> 
> However, and this seems to be glossed over by many, if you want to do other exercise by all means there is nothing wrong with that and it can be good for lots of things. It's just not what's going to make you more aerobically powerful on a bicycle, that's my point.
> 
> I would never tell anyone to not do core work, because there might be many good reasons for them to do so. However if they ask "will core work help me produce more sustainable aerobic power?", then I'm afraid the answer is "it's unlikely and unsupported by the evidence".


Indeed, all the core/gym work I have done has not made me a lick faster on the bike- but it has allowed me to remain injury free to be able to do the work on the bike that will make me fast. Not to mention shovel snow today for another 3 hours without crippling myself. . .


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Windermere said:


> Amen to that.
> 
> It is tiresome.
> 
> All over every cycling forum you find, always the same.



Yup. Like a broken freaking record.


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## Frith (Oct 3, 2002)

Here is the reason core work in the gym will make you a faster cyclist...

- Riding and more riding makes you faster (I think we've established this)
- Core strength allows you to ride for longer periods more comfort.
- Fatigue can happen due to weak core muscles long before you've properly worked your legs.
- Core strength is most efficiently gained in a gym not on a bike.

In conclusion keep your core strong off the bike thereby enabling more effective workouts on the bike.

It's not that big of a leap.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Frith said:


> Here is the reason core work in the gym will make you a faster cyclist...
> 
> - Riding and more riding makes you faster (I think we've established this)
> - Core strength allows you to ride for longer periods more comfort.
> ...


Except that strength and endurance of musculature are not related.

If you want to work on core muscular _endurance and fatigue resistance _as opposed to core _strength_, then do exercises that focus on the endurance and fatigue resistance of your core.

The best core musculature workouts for bike riding are:
- sprints from slow and fast speeds
- seated sprints from low speed
- standing starts
- anaerobic/lactate tolerance efforts
- hillclimbing
- hard efforts at/near/above threshold
- longer rides of the sweet spot variety with variable effort
- racing


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## dochoot (Oct 27, 2009)

This is a follow up. I did end up getting the Carmicheal DVD. As I have never done anything like it, I found it hard (wife thought it was wimpy). Anyway, I really like it and it makes sense to me. Just got back from Vail and convinced it helped me ski a little harder as well. Lots of muscles I have never worked on. May not make me trully faster on a bike but was a good thing for me to do.


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## merlinluvr (Feb 6, 2010)

MerlinAma said:


> On the other hand, some if us have ridden long enough to know exactly what improves our riding.
> Do I need a double blind scientific study to tell me that eating a quart of ice cream a day will make me gain weight? I don't think so. I learned that from experience.
> So never mind. I'll find my own way.


Hooray x 2. After 33 years of cycling there is nothing anyone can say to me to dissuade me from doing a regular routine of not only core strengthening exercises, but a full body routine.....year around. It has allowed me to take on more mileage, much tougher interval sessions as well as volume....all without injury. All my speedwork up until the mid 90's was limited by when my injuries would surface. In 2003 I was so bogged with travel that I missed much of my winter routine, pretty much all of it. I spent most of 2004 with one injury after another.

Perhaps my best elixir is dropping the younger punks who insist 'you will gain too much weight....or....it will cut into your mileage.....or.....you are wasting your time'. Had that very experience Friday with a particular punk who doesn't like getting dropped by guys 2x his age on a bike about 1/5 the cost in my no name Nashbar jersey Then again I was off the back of the big boys, but if you are gonna ridicule an old man for working out you had better be sure you can whip him first!


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> That's really cool you went well and persisted with work to improve. :thumbsup: Doing work to overcoming specific issues makes sense when returning from injury.
> 
> But if we are talking anecdotes, then I may as well relate mine.
> 
> ...


That, was a great story, Alex. Amazing. 

Being in the med profession for umpteen years, it always perplexes me the difference between those that just dig in, grit their teeth, and go for it, and those that roll over.

An amputation is a very, very big deal, as you well know.

My hats off to you and thanks for the good read this morning with my coffee. I'll think of your accomplishments today while I ride if I start whining and moaning that my riding buddy is going too fast.


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## desmo13 (Jun 28, 2006)

I am no scientist, just a history teacher. I learn from the past. Winter of '08, I was good about core/weights in the gym, plus running. Had a wonderfull year of '09 pain free riding. This winter, I wasnt so good about the gym. (stupid golf) and month 2 into my riding schedule, Neck and back fatigue etc. I started my core/weights in January, instead of november. and I am felling my delay in training those.

Performance wise, I am much faster this year, but has to do with the type of cycling training I am doing, but my core is not keeping up with my power. I learn from history to not make the same mistakes.. next year I will not skimp on the core/weights over the winter.

just my anecdotal story.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

dochoot said:


> This is a follow up. I did end up getting the Carmicheal DVD. As I have never done anything like it, I found it hard (wife thought it was wimpy). Anyway, I really like it and it makes sense to me. Just got back from Vail and convinced it helped me ski a little harder as well. Lots of muscles I have never worked on. May not make me trully faster on a bike but was a good thing for me to do.



Fantastic! Good for you. My guess is, you'll get faster on the bike more rapidly because of your improved overall strength. You'll just be able to handle more load, earlier in the season.

I've been in Crossfit with a trainer four days a week since January as an alternative to riding because of my work schedule, and I don't have a proper winter bike. 

I figured what the heck, it's better than the couch! 

He said, "I will so owe him" when I see what I can do on the bike. He was right.

Results...phenomenal. 

Of course, it's been absolutely brutal, brutal training, but worth it.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Nice photos in that gallery, Desmo.


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