# why vertical dropouts?



## greg75 (Feb 15, 2008)

Can anyone tell me why road bike rear drop out seem to be universally vertical now, rather than sloping. In my opinion the older design is less chunky and more graceful and also provides scope for some adjustment. I don't see any benefit to vertical dropouts. Maybe the argument is for a more positive location of the rear axle, but I've never had a wheel shift in sloping drop outs when correctly mounted.


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## caterham (Nov 7, 2005)

it allows a shorter chainstay. personally, i'd rather have the capability of fine tuning the fore-aft weight distribution with a horizontal dropout.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

cuz people are too dumb to get their wheels in straight w/ horiz d/os


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

vertical dropouts allow the manufacturer to spec external cam quick releases, which don't hold a wheel tight enough to prevent it from slipping on a horizontal dropout. 

External cam quick releases are just another "innovation" in modern cycling that actually works worse than what it's replacing, but costs the manufacturer less to make AND allow them to sell more aftermarket parts.

Threadless headsets, black components, 31.8 handlebars, octa-link, external BBs, it's all the same crap.


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## dmar836 (Nov 17, 2007)

buck-50 said:


> Threadless headsets, black components, 31.8 handlebars, octa-link, external BBs, it's all the same crap.


What he said!


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

While they don't make for the quickest wheel changes. These are a great idea. Go gears, fixie, Boltone, or quick release. I'm building my next road bike with these.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

CurbDestroyer said:


> While they don't make for the quickest wheel changes. These are a great idea. Go gears, fixie, Boltone, or quick release. I'm building my next road bike with these.


I've got a klein with rear-facing drop-outs- Man, are wheel changes a pain in the @$$...

I'm curious why you'd use those instead of standard horizontal dropouts- What is the advantage? Not being a d!ck, just curious...

I had horizontal dropouts on my fixie and the wheel never slipped... Of course, they had to be bolted on...


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## Doggity (Mar 10, 2006)

_Threadless headsets, black components, 31.8 handlebars, octa-link, external BBs, it's all the same crap._ Truly! Buck fifty, I like your style!


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

greg75 said:


> Can anyone tell me why road bike rear drop out seem to be universally vertical now, rather than sloping. In my opinion the older design is less chunky and more graceful and also provides scope for some adjustment. I don't see any benefit to vertical dropouts. Maybe the argument is for a more positive location of the rear axle, but I've never had a wheel shift in sloping drop outs when correctly mounted.


Adjustment for what? So you can also have the pleasure of re-adjusting your brake pads? Vertical is lighter with a positive placement. - TF


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

TurboTurtle said:


> Adjustment for what? So you can also have the pleasure of re-adjusting your brake pads? Vertical is lighter with a positive placement. - TF


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the slight slope in the horizontal dropout corrected for brake pad location- basically kept them in the same spot.

Either way, that's never been an issue on any of my horizontal dropout bikes...

The rearward adjustment coupled with an older frame design means you can fit bigger tires when you want to, but then close everything back up when you wanna run the skinny tires. At least in theory...


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

Doggity said:


> _Threadless headsets, black components, 31.8 handlebars, octa-link, external BBs, it's all the same crap._ Truly! Buck fifty, I like your style!


I'm all for innovation... I just want the innovations to benefit me, not the manufacturer... I'm kinda stupid like that.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

buck-50 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that the slight slope in the horizontal dropout corrected for brake pad location- basically kept them in the same spot.
> 
> Either way, that's never been an issue on any of my horizontal dropout bikes...
> 
> The rearward adjustment coupled with an older frame design means you can fit bigger tires when you want to, but then close everything back up when you wanna run the skinny tires. At least in theory...


I think that it was a very small percentage that had slanted drop outs as an interum solution.

It's never been an issue because you don't adjust them. Why would you?

The tire size/diameter is even more limited by having to go between the seat tube and the front of the horizontal drop out unless you let the air out. What limits tire size is the frame design.

TF


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

buck-50 said:


> I've got a klein with rear-facing drop-outs- Man, are wheel changes a pain in the @$$...
> 
> I'm curious why you'd use those instead of standard horizontal dropouts- What is the advantage? Not being a d!ck, just curious...
> 
> I had horizontal dropouts on my fixie and the wheel never slipped... Of course, they had to be bolted on...


I was going to mention the klien dropouts, but they are not long enough to be considered horizontal. Yep, changes are a pain in the @$$ if you don't want to get dirty. even if you get dirty they still are a pain. 

I like the Breezer style dropouts.








For me it's easier to miter the stay ends for a breezer style dropout rather than to slot them for a conventional horizontal.

I think Cervelo also uses a rear entry horizonal on it's P2 and P3 TT frames. 

I know some people that have problems with their rear wheel slipping and go bolt on for fixie. I've experience this before, but I found Shimano skewers to be the best (Who knew one day I'd praise Shimano)

Also . . . and I don't know if this makes a difference. . . . but the deraileurs mounting bolt sits below and behind the rear wheel axel by some dimension . . . I don't kow what that is. When the wheel is all the way forward in the rear entry horizontal I have pictured, it's the same as a verticle dropout.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

buck-50 said:


> I'm all for innovation... I just want the innovations to benefit me, not the manufacturer... I'm kinda stupid like that.


Hey Buck-50 . . . you forgot the move to 1-1/8" headtubes . . . we need that extra 1/8"! . . . . I've been building my own frame from 4130. 1-1/4 has the perfect ID for 1" headset cups. The 4130 tubing for the perfect size 1-1/8" headset cup doesn't exist.  
you see the next step up from 1-1/4 is 1-3/8 . . . . you need 1-5/16 unless you want a 2Lbs. headtube. or you want to risk something like .6 thickness for headset cups.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

CurbDestroyer said:


> Hey Buck-50 . . . you forgot the move to 1-1/8" headtubes . . . we need that extra 1/8"! . . . . I've been building my own frame from 4130. 1-1/4 has the perfect ID for 1" headset cups. The 4130 tubing for the perfect size 1-1/8" headset cup doesn't exist.
> you see the next step up from 1-1/4 is 1-3/8 . . . . you need 1-5/16 unless you want a 2Lbs. headtube. or you want to risk something like .6 thickness for headset cups.


Hey, don't forget the new madones, with a 1-1/8" top and a 1-1/4" bottom headset... And a proprietary BB... 

Seems like most of the innovations lately have really been in the interest of consolidating standards between road and mountain parts... I would not be surprised if road dropout spacing increased to 135 to accomodate the new 11 speed systems...


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

buck-50 said:


> Hey, don't forget the new madones, with a 1-1/8" top and a 1-1/4" bottom headset... And a proprietary BB...
> 
> Seems like most of the innovations lately have really been in the interest of consolidating standards between road and mountain parts... I would not be surprised if road dropout spacing increased to 135 to accomodate the new 11 speed systems...


I had great praise for Colnago holding out for as long as they did with 1" headsets. 

I don't really value a headset performance very much. I ride a headset right now that some people reguard as an indexing headset. People come into the shop and when their headsets start to index they will replace them . . . and I'll take them. I think that indexing bother people the most when it's in the stand, rather than when it's on the road.

135mm not to acomadate the 11 speed cassette so much as to accomodate the DISC brake mounts on the hub. Because it's not easy enough to skid with caliper brakes.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm starting to head anti technology . . . starting? . . . heck I've been there for a long time. A guy come in and gave me a bike . . . Azuki ladies bike with Steel cotter cranks . . . but it have a set of pristine Dia-compe center pull brakes . . . They are going to go on the road bike I'm building just to piss people off. All the braking performance you need comes from a clean set of rims and good clean brake shoes.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

CurbDestroyer said:


> I'm starting to head anti technology . . . starting? . . . heck I've been there for a long time. A guy come in and gave me a bike . . . Azuki ladies bike with Steel cotter cranks . . . but it have a set of pristine Dia-compe center pull brakes . . . They are going to go on the road bike I'm building just to piss people off. All the braking performance you need comes from a clean set of rims and good clean brake shoes.


I've bounced back and forth from tech-weenie to wool-wearin' rivendellian, but I've kinda ended up in the middle- There's dumb technology (aheadsets) and there's dumb retro stuff (plaid wool bike bags). I love my 17 pound aluminum cyclocross bike and it's STI shifters, but I also love my Serotta with DT shifters...

If I can ever afford to have a frame custom built, I'd love to try and incorporate the best of both worlds...

The result would probably look a lot like my serotta with a few extra braze-ons...


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## caterham (Nov 7, 2005)

TurboTurtle said:


> .
> It's never been an issue because you don't adjust them. Why would you?


screwing the adjusters in distributes more weight onto the rear tyre(ie-shorter chainstay length), and screwing them back places more weight on the front- allowing one to fine tune the handling of the bike to your preference, & individual body build.
with verticals, you're stuck with whatever the F/R weight distribution works out to.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

caterham said:


> screwing the adjusters in distributes more weight onto the rear tyre(ie-shorter chainstay length), and screwing them back places more weight on the front- allowing one to fine tune the handling of the bike to your preference, & individual body build.
> with verticals, you're stuck with whatever the F/R weight distribution works out to.




do you do that? how much difference does it make? and can you notice it? would the avg joe noob notice it?


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

This reminds me of a rant I once wrote on my main board at BIKE mag. PLEASE take it with a grain of salt. Its supposed to be entertaining:

_Y'know, I was thinking about this on my ride tonight. And as I gazed at the ratty old hoods on my otherwise pristine and lovely roadie, I decided that I blame you. That's right, you. And you. And yes, you too. 

"Why o why wooglin, is a man who pedals with such fluidity and grace as yourself riding on ratty old hoods" you might ask. Well I'll tell you why. Its because they don't make white hoods anymore. Noooooo. They make nasty looking black hoods. And you know why? Because of you dirty, hairy-legged, baggie-wearin, aesthetically challenged mountain bikers. Buncha frickin goth wannabes if you ask me. Black is for lycra shorts. That's it. Its not for rims, its not for spokes, and its not for cranks or brifters or derailleurs or stems or bars or seatposts (cf excepted). Those things should be silver. That's right, silver. Not black you tatooed and pierced bunch of dirtbag ex-skate punks. AND BRAKE HOODS SHOULD BE WHITE OR GUM!!! Write that on your foreheads, would you?

"But what about those cool flat black frames" you'll ask in your whiney little voices. Frames are painted. Yes, with paint. Not powder coated. And appropriate colors are anything bright or metallic flecked. And they have decals proudly announcing their marque and tubes. And most important of all, they are all shiney-like and waxed to a sheen you buncha dirt grubbing slime would normally only associate with the SUV that poseur at the trailhead drives. I have one word for those of you who want a flat black, decal free road frame. Bite me. 

"What's this got to do with compact geometry" will no doubt be the next (and only since there's not room for more) inane thought in your otherwise vacuous head. Compact geometry is useful to the person riding a bike for one reason and one reason only. You know what it is? Of course not Mr. "If you don't crash you're not trying hard enough", multi-concussed freak. Its for clearance at the TT. And who needs clearance at the TT? Yep, that's right. The same people who's idea of a good time is "hucking" (I'm so Xtreeeeeemmmeee). All that other ***** about the utility of compact frames is just that, *****. And its been fed to you by the manufacturers so they only have to make 3 or 4 different sizes. And you've fallen for it hook line and sinker. You even think it looks cool, so cool that when you finally do realize that riding on the road is as close to heaven as you'll see in this lifetime you actually have the audacity to pay good money for a compact road frame. You prefer it in fact. Cretin. If I ever get stuck buying a compact frame because there's nothing else available I'm going to hunt you down like a dog and jam a peanut butter wrench so far up your baggie azz you'll be able to adjust cones with your tongue. 

But of course it doesn't end there. Not even close. Because the grand daddy of all the idiotic ideas foisted on real cyclists by you scummy mountain bikers is, you guessed it, indexed shifting. And not just any indexed shifting but integrated indexed shifting. Because of you there's a whole generation of benighted Lance wannabes (Eddie, now there's a man who could turn a pedal in anger) out there who lack any semblance of skills whatsoever. Hell, they don't even have to let go of the bars to shift so they can't even ride one handed (let alone no handed) smoothly. Fuggers are constantly dropping water bottles in the pace line and then we all have to stop and wait for their pansy azzes aboard their Trek "aren't these postal colors cool" Madone (ridden no more than 20 miles at a stretch). And their shifting skills? Non-existent. They shift like a bull in a china shop and their goddam perennially maladjusted drivetrains impinge on my ride chi, and its all because douchebag mountain bikers, yes, like you, can't hear their drive train in cruddy conditions and so needed a system that would slot them into gear with no muss and no fuss. Tools. But the jokes on you because you then bought into triggers and ... wait for it ... 9sp. Ha! Talk about an accident waiting to happen, I quiver with joy every time I see some dirty azzed MTBer with shifters, knowing that eventually, and probably sooner rather than later, they're going to be stranded out there in the woods. Probably cry for mommy like little babies out there too.

Thats it, I've had it. I'm popping A Sunday in Hell in the VCR and spinning on the rollers with a bottle of endurox unitl my heart rate goes back down. Next week, triples, their origins (look down moron), and why you better be carrying loaded panniers if you're riding one on the road or I'll kick your azz. And lets not even get started on aluminum._


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## caterham (Nov 7, 2005)

FatTireFred said:


> do you do that? how much difference does it make? and can you notice it? would the avg joe noob notice it?


 it depends somewhat on the bike itself- the more aggressive & sensitive the bike's basic geometry, the more it will be noticed.however, one shouldn't expect the adjustments to significantly alter the intrinsic handling character of the bike . 
that said, one can often tune a bike that's say, nervous & twitchy to just being a little "pointy" or to make a bike that's slight lazy just a little bit crisper on turn in. most probably wouldn't be able to discern 1 or 2 mm of adjustment difference but 3-4mm can sometimes make the difference from a bike that's handling 'okay to 'good' into' one that inspires confidence.

if you own a bike with horizontal dropout adjusters, just do a little experimenting- screw them full in and then full out and see what,if any, change it makes- if you notice the difference,pick the setting you like best or something in-between and then forget about it.
you might be surprised and find that the bike and your handling skills are better than you realised.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

wooglin said:


> This reminds me of a rant I once wrote on my main board at BIKE mag. PLEASE take it with a grain of salt. Its supposed to be entertaining:


You are my new hero.


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

buck-50 said:


> Hey, don't forget the new madones, with a 1-1/8" top and a 1-1/4" bottom headset... And a proprietary BB...


What's proprietary about it? Uses standard two piece crankset with standard bearings for that crank. No other parts necessary.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

zac said:


> What's proprietary about it? Uses standard two piece crankset with standard bearings for that crank. No other parts necessary.


Bah!

Yer right, it's probably just fine... I just miss my square tapers...


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

buck-50 said:


> Hey, don't forget the new madones, with a 1-1/8" top and a 1-1/4" bottom headset... And a proprietary BB...




don't forget about the seatpost


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

You wanna kick it Old School. Nothing like getting a Carlton Build Raleigh only to find it has propietary BB . . . 26tpi . . . Reamed it out, and tapped Italian. AHhhh Haaa! . . 

. . . What was this thread about again?


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## dmar836 (Nov 17, 2007)

Curb, what's the weight been like on the Chromo frames?

Oh and BTW, I have pulled the rear wheel crooked on an older Masi when using the non-serrated QRs.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*I've pulled 'em too.*



dmar836 said:


> Curb, what's the weight been like on the Chromo frames?
> 
> Oh and BTW, I have pulled the rear wheel crooked on an older Masi when using the non-serrated QRs.


On my old Battaglin "Carrera Team" with chromed Campy 1010B dropouts and Mavic skewers. Really had to crank those babies down to prevent it.


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

dmar836 said:


> Curb, what's the weight been like on the Chromo frames?
> 
> Oh and BTW, I have pulled the rear wheel crooked on an older Masi when using the non-serrated QRs.


4130 comes in around 3.75 - 4 Lbs. Not bad since materials cost me $60. I built one frame from Tange Prestige and it weighted 3.25 ($120). You can build them lighter with cycling specific tubing . . .go figure I'm using straight guage 4130 . . . the same stuff they built airplanes out of. It's not that I'm against cycling tubing, It's just I like the people at airparts. 
http://www.airpartsinc.com/
It's fun it go out there. They are a lot of interesting gadgets. Go figure they sell stuff to build air planes. many things you don't see in the catalog. 

I don't mind the extra weight.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

I have horizontal dropouts on my old 1985 Somec. My beef with them is that the design forces me to completely let the air out of my rear tire if I want to remove the wheel. Sure, you can ask how many times does a person remove the rear wheel? Well, for years I'd transport the bicycle to and from work (so I could ride during lunch), and the only way I could fit it into the car was to take the rear wheel off.

When it comes to "indexed" headseats, I find my Somec's indexed headset puts a serious crimp in the bicycle's handling and stability. By rapidly swinging the handlebars left and right I can temporarily minimize the indexing...and then the handling gets pretty good again...but eventually the indexing again rears its ugly head. Yeah, I probably ought to just replace the headset but it's an old Campy Nuovo Record; and I'm not willing to pay through the nose for a period correct replacement, and I'm not ready to compromise the bike's aesthetics with a new one. The bicycle is just my commuter/coffee bike, anyway.


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## caterham (Nov 7, 2005)

easy fix (well,...it's cheap)-

just remove the headset races from the frame (fork crown race also if it's really bad), and reinstall them. the "detents" won't be exactly aligned with each other and the "notching" will be halved or less. if your headset presently has retained bearings, switch over to free balls,adding one more ball than that of the retained bearing or if you already use free bearings, revert back to retainer style bearings.


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## dmar836 (Nov 17, 2007)

I dig that place too. I get many of my end mills there. I need to pick up some adjustable reamers when they get a batch. I found a nice one that looked like it'd be good for align boring but it wasn't the size I need. 
Highjacking the thread but what wall thickness 4130 do you use?


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## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

buck-50 said:


> Bah!
> 
> Yer right, it's probably just fine... I just miss my square tapers...


You know what? I thought I would too, but these damn things are just so easy to pull apart, setup and adjust, that I got over it pretty quickly. The "head set" is the same, but with a very inconvenient twist. It is very easy to pull apart and replace bearings and clean and adjust: but the lower bearing is only available from Trek as far as I can find. And the upper bearing (1.125") is usually only available in sets from Cane Creek. 

I'll give you the seat mast (ie seat post) but it sure does make that Madone comfortable at mile 80+ without killing the road feel. 

zac


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

I don't mind the vertical dropouts. The Vitus has them and it's brainless to slap a wheel in there. I do like the minute adjustments I have with the Gipiemme dropouts though. Sometimes I slap a wheel in and get it cockeyed and on a couple occasions, I haven't got the QR snugged properly, then a hard gear torque has shifted the rear wheel. 

I do enjoy the simple technology of the aged rides. They seem to have a more forgiving nature as far as torque ranges when adjusting. Did I mention simple?! If the index shifting is buggered up, I twist the ring on the DT shifter and have friction. Now if the shifting goes on my 6600 brifter...? 

The oversized bandwagon...I don't get. I also include that with the fat tubes we now see commonly due to aluminum frames. Do I thank Cannondale and Klein? I just like small tube framesets.


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