# Sram Hydraulic Disc sighting



## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Disc brakes dominate podium at men’s Derby City Cup


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

looks like TJ raced the BB7 bikes...


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

He most certainly did, but I couldn't really tell from the article whether riding the hydraulic disc bike was an option or whether it was just there for testing.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Tim has the hydraulic setup on one of last year's bike (different paint job) so it would be easy to spot. I think he's just testing for now.


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## TWebb (Dec 23, 2011)

I personally would rather see more work being done on a BB7 "Ultimate" type brake. The SL is cool, but they could have did so much more.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

No matter what they do, hydraulics will always end up with better modulation, lighter weight and less maintenance... Pros using BB7 only do because it's their only option but once fully hydraulic options from SRAM and Shimano will be here, BB7 will dissappear from pro racing and we'll see more racers on discs, even in Europe.

Personally, the day I decide to switch to discs is also probably the day I ditch SRAM transmissions. I love Red, but I have used SARM/Avid hydraulic discs on mountain bikes and they're the worst of all I have tried, my current SRAM XX brakes are really crappy feeling, inconsistent... And since road brake levers and shifters are integrated unlike mountain bikes, I'd rather endure Shimano's shifting rather than SRAM's brakes... Shimano hydraulic discs work much better, feel, consistency and reliability are a charm... unless SRAM can do with CX discs what they could never do with mountain bike discs? Doubt it.


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

I doubt it too. When Shimano makes a Dura-Ace disc that's when things will be awesome.


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

View attachment 268697
Here's another pic.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Talk to me when the really fast guys (World Cup) podium is disc brakes.


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

It'll be next year. In two years no one will be riding cantis. You won't be able to buy a high end bike with canti mounts.
Discs are coming whether you want them or not. Whether they work or not. It's over for cantis just like v-brakes on mtn.bikes.


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## locobaylor (Mar 11, 2008)

shimano disc brakes with some electronic shifting would be what i'd want. but i've never ridden discs on a road bike or electronic shifting. i'd just hope that the master cylinder wouldn't bust and get into the electronic stuff and electrocute me.


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## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

locobaylor said:


> shimano disc brakes with some electronic shifting would be what i'd want.


Construction-wise, it's the smart thing to do. If you try to combine mechanical shifting internals with a hydraulic master cylinder plus actuating mechanism, you end up with a hideously big and lumpy construction like that SRAM prototype in the pic...


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

locobaylor said:


> shimano disc brakes with some electronic shifting would be what i'd want. but i've never ridden discs on a road bike or electronic shifting. i'd just hope that the master cylinder wouldn't bust and get into the electronic stuff and electrocute me.


You really worried about being electrocuted by a 7 volt battery?
I think you'll be more shocked at a Di2 cross bikes price....


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## grooveninja (Feb 13, 2007)

Hopefully the modulation is up there with the new XO Trail/XTR/XT/Saint disk brakes.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Word on the street is that SRAM (among others) has their hydraulic disc groups ready to go. Waiting for more frames and components from the bike companies.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

I thought the hold up was figuring out how these brakes wont overheat when going down 20km long steep descents. Overheating wont be a problem in cross but these brakes will also make it on road bikes and when the fluid boils going down the Tourmalet or something, it wont be pretty, brake failure is bound to happen (there are already nasty stories with people testing TRP Parabox brakes and brakes suddenly locking up when the brake fluid started to boil). The caliper is so small, rotors are small, these have the potential to overheat very easily on the road...


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

Dajianshan said:


> Word on the street is that SRAM (among others) has their hydraulic disc groups ready to go. Waiting for more frames and components from the bike companies.


That can't be right. Everyone has been waiting for SRAM to make the brakes. That Specialized bike is only offered as a frame because SRAM were taking too long to supply the brakes.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Dajianshan said:


> Word on the street is that SRAM (among others) has their hydraulic disc groups ready to go. Waiting for more frames and components from the bike companies.


You said the same thing a couple years ago.
You might want to get your hearing checked....and hang out on a better street.


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## XLNC (Feb 6, 2012)

the mayor said:


> You really worried about being electrocuted by a 7 volt battery?


I know what you're saying and you are correct. However the reality is that a 1.5V AAA battery COULD kill you. If you introduce your body as a path for voltage to "flow" to "ground", that 1.5 volt battery COULD kill you. However it has to pass over your heart for it to fail and to lead to that possibility. Also just like taking a 2X4 to the head, some people are able to take that 'trauma' while others are not. 

Long story short you're right; ultimately the chances of you being electrocuted by your Di2 system is roughly the same as winning the lottery.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

XLNC said:


> I know what you're saying and you are correct. However the reality is that a 1.5V AAA battery COULD kill you. If you introduce your body as a path for voltage to "flow" to "ground", that 1.5 volt battery COULD kill you. However it has to pass over your heart for it to fail and to lead to that possibility. Also just like taking a 2X4 to the head, some people are able to take that 'trauma' while others are not.
> 
> Long story short you're right; ultimately the chances of you being electrocuted by your Di2 system is roughly the same as winning the lottery.


Congrats! You just won Nerdiest Post of the Day!
Please don't choke on your crayons....


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

View attachment 268742


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## XLNC (Feb 6, 2012)

the mayor said:


> Congrats! You just won Nerdiest Post of the Day!
> Please don't choke on your crayons....


Really? Is that the best you could come up with?

Tell you what, I'll agree to stay away from the crayons only if you agree to stay away from the pathetic attempts at sounding "witty".....


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## grooveninja (Feb 13, 2007)

Dan Gerous said:


> I thought the hold up was figuring out how these brakes wont overheat when going down 20km long steep descents. Overheating wont be a problem in cross but these brakes will also make it on road bikes and when the fluid boils going down the Tourmalet or something, it wont be pretty, brake failure is bound to happen (there are already nasty stories with people testing TRP Parabox brakes and brakes suddenly locking up when the brake fluid started to boil). The caliper is so small, rotors are small, these have the potential to overheat very easily on the road...


Not quite sure why people keep saying things like that? I've done 7,000' dh's on my mt bike where you are on the brakes for over a hour really, really hard, because your life pretty much depended on it. IMO its far more demanding than riding my road bike down the Tourmalet and I ride out from my door up 4,000' and back down to a ski area almost every week. 

You are going to have less problems rather than more. With disks on mt. bike (and the same will be true for road) you have to look realistically at your weight and length of descent you might encounter when selection the correct size rotor. A 220lb guy can probably ride a DH mt. bike down Mega Avalanche on 140mm rotors to save a little weight. Is it smart, probably not. But the beauty of disk brakes is that guy can also upgrade to 220mm rotor or go from a 140 to a 160mm front rotor for your mountain stage. You have no adjustment of any kind on current rim brakes. A 110lb woman and a 250lb guy use basically the same brakes. I can't just make a 5 minute change and get 60% more breaking surface on my rims. You can also adjust oil. On my DH bike I use synthetic Motul oil with a 421F wet boiling point and it was a $8 and bleed but made a dramatic effect on brake fade via heat. Don't need it on my XC bike for my weight and the rides i do. If hydraulic brakes where as sketchy as you describe, no one would risk their lives using them on DH racing but the fact is they are extremely reliable for over 10 years now.

The mountain bike industry is piggy backing off the motorcycle industry's use of similar technology and R&D for the last 30 years. You will have a hard time convincing me that the moto world didn't figure all of this out 20 years ago building race bikes for the Isle of Man GP where they have way bigger heat issues than you do on a road bike. The only two engineering challenges left IMO is aerodynamics on the road and making the brakes light enough so there is no weight penalty, but where you get the improved modulation and the ability to brakes powerfully without locking the wheels.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

You're making am apples to oranges comparison. I race/ride dh and enduros and the braking demands just aren't the same. On the road you are going to have smaller lighter components coupled with people who drag their brakes for long periods, this is the same dynamic that is killing carbon clinchers. You simply never encounter a MTB dowhnhill where you'd be dragging your brakes for minutes on end, the dynamics of a trail let the brakes cool down between applications.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

OnTheRivet said:


> You're making am apples to oranges comparison. I race/ride dh and enduros and the braking demands just aren't the same. On the road you are going to have smaller lighter components coupled with people who drag their brakes for long periods, this is the same dynamic that is killing carbon clinchers. You simply never encounter a MTB dowhnhill where you'd be dragging your brakes for minutes on end, the dynamics of a trail let the brakes cool down between applications.


That. Like OnTheRivet said, you rarely stay on the brakes all the time when going down on mountain bikes as some roadies do when descending and I really doubt SRAM and other companies and consumers will want huge calipers and rotors that can take care of that much heat on their road bikes. The SRAM Red calipers are very small, paired with 160-140mm rotors, I think they would be perfect for CX but they have to make them safe for roadies, that's what the hold up is for companies right now...


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## PNW Rider (Sep 9, 2002)

When brake fluid begins to boil, you get brake fade - you lose brake pressure. You need to squeeze the lever quickly/multiple times to build pressure. I don't understand the quote below about the TRPs.

"(there are already nasty stories with people testing TRP Parabox brakes and brakes suddenly locking up when the brake fluid started to boil)"

Boiling produces gas bubbles within any boiling fluid. Gas is compressible so boiling brake fluid leads to a “soft” brake lever with longer travel.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

PNW Rider said:


> When brake fluid begins to boil, you get brake fade - you lose brake pressure. You need to squeeze the lever quickly/multiple times to build pressure. I don't understand the quote below about the TRPs.
> 
> "(there are already nasty stories with people testing TRP Parabox brakes and brakes suddenly locking up when the brake fluid started to boil)"
> 
> Boiling produces gas bubbles within any boiling fluid. Gas is compressible so boiling brake fluid leads to a “soft” brake lever with longer travel.


Here's where all the "sky is falling" came from. A Interweb "editor" wadded himself up and told the world of the dangers of discs:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/road-bike-disc-brakes-are-coming-but-will-they-work/

So, of course...if this happened to an "editor"....it's going to fail for everybody, right?

Strangely...there were rumors that Shimano had working discs a few years ago when the UCI reversed the rules...and that SRAM was working on them. Since then...a PhotoShop pic of the SRAM set up appeared earlier this year...and now a few showed up this weekend. Not a peep from Shimano...except a new mechanical disc.

You know the legal teams and insurance carriers of the 2 big S companies aren't going to let these go to market until they are fool proof...and knowing that there is always a better fool.

As a side note: I have a tandem with BB7's that, in New England, I have gotten the brakes hot enough to smell them burning...and they did get grabby....but no discoloring of the rotors. On a vacation out west , I rented a tandem...and on much bigger downhills...again was able to get them hot enough to get the burning smell and grabbyness. A few others , on the same rentals ( these were very well set up and maintained) blued the rotors and melted the red plastic knobs on the BB7s. The rental mechanic says it happens all the time....but has never had a failure. On the same tour...there were 2 tandems that had blow outs from getting the rim too hot with rim brakes. Something about 300 + lbs hitting 50+mph....


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I thought I was pretty right on with calling the introduction and integration of discs. Pretty good track record with the hydraulics as well TRP and all that. This year was the original plan for release, so they say, but it was held back. In the industry cycle Taichung Bike Week is going on now when the goods for the coming year or two will be negotiated. I will be there this weekend.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I guess the question I'm stuck on (having never even tested a disc equipped bike) is are the real world benefits even worth all of this (buying new sets of wheels, risking brake failure, etc.)? Coming from road, I find it hard to believe that manufacturers will be able to convince pro road racers to make a switch anytime soon given the lengthy risky descents they have to navigate and the importance of bike weight on courses with multiple cat1 and HC level climbs (sponsorship contracts and money on the table have a way of swaying people's opinions, so I could be wrong here). Is cross really all that different (if the best and fastest in the world are still riding cantilever and winning--do we really need discs and/or do the pros really outweigh the cons or are we just addicted to innovation and new products)????


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## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

Dan Gerous said:


> That. Like OnTheRivet said, you rarely stay on the brakes all the time when going down on mountain bikes as some roadies do when descending and I really doubt SRAM and other companies and consumers will want huge calipers and rotors that can take care of that much heat on their road bikes.


Wether or not you stay on the brakes is not a matter of discipline (road or MTB), but of rider skills. You are speaking of 'some roadies', but I know a lot of newbie mountainbikers too that have cooked their brakes because of continued braking on descents that were not even super steep. The roadies that do that will have suffered from blown out inner tubes because of rims overheating.

It's just that this problem and the required skill to prevent it is not well known (yet) among road riders AND mechanics that only work on road bikes.

There is one line in that bike rumor article that says it all: "I want to point out that I installed the parts myself, cut the rear hose and re-bled the rear brake and chose to not use TRP’s stock rotors."

He mounted some minimalistic disc and then he chose to ride a downhill that required prolonged hard braking... Who knows he also did a poor bleeding job and still had air in the system. I'll tell you that if you pull those tricks on a mountainbike, you are going to eat rock or tree. The good thing is that he exposed the risks. The bad thing is that a big part of the conservative road rider community misinterpreted all that as a trait of hydraulic disc brakes in general.

Hydraulic disc braking on the road as a concept _will_ work as good as on trails. The risks are not new and transfer from MTB to road: Badly designed products and riders/mechanics without skill and/or knowledge. My carbon bars will break by tightening them too much, not because of them being carbon. Yup, other can of worms, but perfectly comparable.


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## Sheepo (Nov 8, 2011)

Sram makes crap hydraulic brakes. I like sram, but not their brakes. Shimano makes amazing hydraulic brakes and I excited to see their offering in the future.


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## Smoothy (Jul 6, 2006)

*2016*



Sheepo said:


> Sram makes crap hydraulic brakes. I like sram, but not their brakes. Shimano makes amazing hydraulic brakes and I excited to see their offering in the future.


Agreed. This discussion really is about when is Shimano going to have a production brake ready. No big cx pro's are even racing a prototype at this point, so the very earliest we'd see one is the 2015MY. Shimano isn't even asking its euro pro's to run their cable discs yet, despite Colnago being hot-to-trot for all things 700c disc. 

And you'll recall how electronic shifting intro's went - all D/A at first, then Ultegra a year or two later. So if you don't have a zillion $$ to spend (ie the 99% of us), you're looking at the 2016MY for reasonably priced Shimano hydro discs.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

Sheepo said:


> Sram makes crap hydraulic brakes. I like sram, but not their brakes. Shimano makes amazing hydraulic brakes and I excited to see their offering in the future.


Every one has a different take on who's brakes are better.
I've had disc brake since Cannondale's Coda/Sachs 1998 models...those were finicky.
Then moved to Grimecas....real finicky.
I've had a bunch of SRAM....all worked ok except a set of XX that had multiple problems.
I still have a set of Juicey Ultimates from around 07 that I have done nothing to ( I wanted to see how long it would take to fail) except change pads....they got a ton of miles on them and still work fine.
I've had a few Maguras...some were great...some had problems.
Some of the earlier Shimano were so so.
I bought a set of XTR Race last year that were leakers.The first set had bad crimps on the lines.The replacements had leaky pistons. The next warranty set was great...until it got cold...and they would drag. Played with them, warrantied them...and the new warrantee set were sticky....go figure. I have friends who have had zero issues.
I now have Formula R1's on my main mtb. A lot of people have problems with these...I haven't had a problem.....YET.

I have a set of BB7's on my fat bike that work fine after set up until they get a lot of grit in them...then they get sticky and can drag.

If you go to the brake forum at mtbr.....you will find a problem with every type out there. But, there's a butt load of them out there that are having no problems.


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## mattsavage (Apr 25, 2007)

I chatted with TRP the other day... they say their Di2 Hywire set is "dialed"! They just don't have a release date yet. Maybe they're waiting for some oem contracts or something, I have no idea, but I can't wait!!! They say these could also be used as levers only on a SS, just by unplugging the wiring harness.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

mattsavage said:


> I chatted with TRP the other day... they say their Di2 Hywire set is "dialed"! They just don't have a release date yet. Maybe they're waiting for some oem contracts or something, I have no idea, but I can't wait!!! They say these could also be used as levers only on a SS, just by unplugging the wiring harness.


I heard the same from them.....
"We have something we don't make really dialed in."
Really?
"Yes...it works great! We don't know when we'll produce or sell it though. But it will cost $599"
Really?
"Yes....and it works with the origianl Di2 and the new Ultegra Di2"
How?
" I don't know....but it's dialed"
At least Formula has said it's put the whole thing on hold.....
I hope some of this stuff happens....or are we waiting for the Easter Bunny?

EDIT: Hmmmm....any mention of the Hywire seems gone from TRP's site? There was a few blurbs about it a while back. It was first going to be released in August....then November....now nothing????


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

I'd take a set of TRP's if they rip it out the Hywire stuff. That could be their initial product launch......a Singlespeed set. It would have to generate some revenue and give them a "first" into the modern era of hydro drop-bar world. 

Or they could give Retroshift a call and let them mount some shifters onto a SS hydro lever. I would take a set of those as well.


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## the mayor (Jul 8, 2004)

So we went from Di2 hydros to single speed hydros to Retroshift hydros.
I wonder why the industry isn't jumping on this????:idea:


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## PaleAleYum (Jan 12, 2006)

*C'mon Guys*

Don't use up all of your best material. The annual Christmas day dics argument is still over a month and a half away.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Roadmap: Sram Hydraulic Road Disc Group........... Model Year 2014! 

On the production calendar is what I am sayin' 

Model year 2014 starts in.... what is it now... May? 

Lay 'em down and smack 'em jack 'em!


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

the mayor said:


> So we went from Di2 hydros to single speed hydros to Retroshift hydros.
> I wonder why the industry isn't jumping on this????:idea:


I don't know what "we" you are referring too, but I have more than one bike that would like drop bar disc brakes. One is SS, one already has Retroshift, and another gear'd in the making . Hence my preference to alternatives. I do like simple, as well as cheap. I fear a SRAM Red hydro will be astronomical in price. Until the Industry actually does something instead of shelving products that they claim are "ready for market," all we can really do is hope and speculate.


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## grooveninja (Feb 13, 2007)

A very interesting kickstarter project related to this thread.

SiCCC Bicycle Brake Rotor: Silicon Carbide-Ceramic-Carbon by Kettle Cycles — Kickstarter


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## pdxsnap (Oct 25, 2011)

CXH?

Its a tall order but we Goats like to jump on things, the higher the better.

The Goats
Retroshift


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## mattsavage (Apr 25, 2007)

grooveninja said:


> A very interesting kickstarter project related to this thread.
> 
> SiCCC Bicycle Brake Rotor: Silicon Carbide-Ceramic-Carbon by Kettle Cycles — Kickstarter



Oooh... There was a guy over on mtbr who does one off projects like this. Some engineer who always has some extra material around to play with. He did rotors like this and some sort of ceramic heatsink for the calipers and I guess the results were incredible. Apparently the heat was just disappearing. But so would your money. Apparently his protos would've cost thousands as one off's to make...


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## ms6073 (Jul 7, 2005)

I jumped on that SiCCC Kickstarter and went in for two sets of the one piece rotor. Would be nice if they stick to the schedule and start shipping before masters worlds.


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## limba (Mar 10, 2004)

SRAM Red Hydraulic Disc Brakes On Deck, Shimano Not Far Behind? - Bike Rumor

More info.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Again... Model Year 2014. BINGO!!!!


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