# Stage 8 results - discuss!!



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Results

Provisional
1 Pieter Weening (Ned) Rabobank 5.03.54
2 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 
3 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 0.27
4 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Fassa Bortolo 
5 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 
6 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 
8 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 
9 Chris Horner (USA) Saunier Duval-Prodir 
10 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 
11 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi 
12 Franco Pellizotti (Fra) Liquigas-Bianchi 
13 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 
14 Jörg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros-Würth 
15 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 
16 Evgeni Petrov (Rus) Lampre-Caffita 
17 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 
18 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 
19 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick.Step 
20 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 
21 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 
22 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 
23 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 
24 Marcos Serrano (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 
25 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 
26 Roberto Heras (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 
27 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 
28 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 
29 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 
30 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 
31 Bradley McGee (Aus) Française Des Jeux 
32 Joseba Beloki (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 
33 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 
34 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 
35 Laurent Brochard (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 1.23
36 Jérôme Pineau (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 1.25
37 Stéphane Goubert (Fra) Ag2r-Prevoyance 
38 Mikel Astarloza (Spa) Ag2r-Prevoyance 
39 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner 
40 Jose Enrique Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 
41 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 
42 Alberto Contador (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth 
43 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) T-Mobile Team 

General classification after stage 8

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 28.06.17
2 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 1.00
3 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 1.02
4 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 1.07
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 1.26
6 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.36
7 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

A few thoughts:

- Vino, vino, vino! It's such a treat that he's racing TDF this year. Bravo!

- Kloden. Sneaky bastard, playing possum all season. Gotta love it.

- Weening. I'm so glad he won. Such a great new talent and got Kloden to work with him for the in.

- Lance. Good job!

- Team Discovery <--- weak!! The much touted team sucked! IL Falco covered the first attack by Vino. Then pffft. Lance was left to cover the next 10 attacks. That was soo weak. I hope Bruyneel yells at all of you tonight. This lack of support in the big mountains has exposed Lance to free-for-all of attacks and has breathed new confidence into all the contenders.

- Ullrich. Nice form. Very attentive. T-mobile... what a great showing today!!

francois


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## erol/frost (May 30, 2004)

That was... heartraising. Definately not a good showing from Discovery.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

I agree. The other teams will take heart at the weakness Discovery showed today.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Lance:

"eeeeeeeehhhhhh....

... for whatever reason I was left alone...

... we're going to have a talk tonight and see what the problem is...

... thanks to Illeas Baleares for taking up the chase and leading the downhills"


I'm paraphrasing but you get the message. He's pissed!


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## Rthur2sheds (Jul 30, 2004)

they going to have a "talk" tonight, eh?

he is rippin'... look for a big rebound by Discovery tomorrow, or else... T-Mobile looked posessed


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## DSR (Oct 10, 2002)

While I appreciate the constant OLN coverage, they had kind of a weak showing today, huh? Once the attacks started, I'm thinking "where's Discovery?!" But there was no mention by Paul/Phil till a brief mention well into the climb. They swung and missed on that one, especially considering LA's comments right afterward. This is the big story. Discovery out to lunch!

And how come OLN didn't have coverage or a feed for the photo finish? All you need is a camera at the line. They have cameras all over the roads, you think that they would have one lined up at the line. I'm sure they're sharing cameras amongst all the Euro networks. Maybe that camera feed at the finish was down for everyone. Kinda strange though. 

Nice work T Mobile! Things are looking a bit more interesting now going into the mountains! S


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## DSR (Oct 10, 2002)

Holy sh!t! Just saw the official photo finish shot. Maybe a cm. At most! Great effort by those two. Good to see the new kid with a stage win. S


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

*Relax*

C’mon the real mountains are still yet to come tomorrow and after the rest day. Was the lackluster performance by the Disovery team by design? Remember when Lance played possum a few years back before he flashed the Jan “The Look”? 

I’m glad there is suspense and good theatre at this year’s Tour. The best is yet to come….


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Was it a case of the Disco team not being able to keep up, or Lance deciding that they should rest as he could handle things himself and would need rested team mates when the harder climbs come?


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## wheelsucker (Jul 10, 2002)

*the top ten in the GC.....*

Doesn't look good for Disco after their performance today. top 10 GC is littered with the T-Mob and csc boys. This may be tougher for lance to win than most people originally thought. Looks like the predictions that all the flat stages wore out some people was spot on, except they didn't think they would be talking about the disco team. Looks like this may be a more interesting tour than originally thought after the first 7 stages.

As for the talk tonight at disco, love to be a fly on the wall. Is lance going to pull a Simoni and have the excuse that no one was there to help him cover attacks?


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## leadag (Jan 4, 2005)

aye ya yahh....


i guarantee somewhere Tommy D is jumping up and down in front of a TV screaming "c'mon coach - put me in PUT ME IN!!!!"

kudos to savodelli for being the last disco rider to help lance out..

me thinks it's time to install some cattle prods on the other bikes!


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*yeah*

Horner made the cut! So did Levi. IF Horner can jump off the front on a stage like tomrrow or Mon/Tues then he can jump into top 12 for sure but he better be riding better than ever. I want to see that sand bagger on the front with that silly smile. CMON CHRISSY!

How much will Lance win by this year? I am guessing 5:07


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## izibo (Jul 2, 2004)

But... is the lack of Disco performance a result of being tired and worn-out, or a strategy from Johan?


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## cannondale_boy (May 6, 2004)

*How?*



izibo said:


> But... is the lack of Disco performance a result of being tired and worn-out, or a strategy from Johan?


How in the world would that be a strategy?????????


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## cannondale_boy (May 6, 2004)

*WoW*

I think I might be up at 6:30am tomorrow for the full stage!
What a great day... I kinda thought that last climb would be like this.

2:57 Down
74 Pavel Padrnos (Cze) Discovery Channel 
75 Manuel Beltran (Spa) Discovery Channel 
76 Bram Tankink (Ned) Quick.Step 
77 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa) Discovery Channel 
68 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel 

I thought these are the climbers of the Disco team? They got blown out big time man!!
Padrnos rode in with them!!

3 T-Mobile guys in the top 10... that is going to be great to watch.

Agreed. Lance was really pissed bout his team today.... 

Good to see Mayo and Heras in the front group...and Beloki!!! GOod job lads.


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## leadag (Jan 4, 2005)

he's not needed any excuses at this point... i was very impressed today... he did a great job controlling that mob on his own.


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## izibo (Jul 2, 2004)

This wouldn't be the craziest thing Johan has done... remember how Lance looked like he was about to keel over in 2001?


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## lancezneighbor (May 4, 2002)

*Link to photo finish*

http://www.letour.com/2005/TDF/LIVE/us/800/index.html

The winning time was just 0.0002 of a second!


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

disco took a rest day. in doing so, all other teams threw their cards on the table. compare compare today's GC to yesterday's. we now have the big players all in the top 10. disoc rested today, have a 'talk' tonight, then turn up the heat tomorrow. i think the following day is a rest day. that gives the other teams 2 days to freak out.

if lance was actually nervous, it was due to voigt being in the final breakaway and getting the time bonus. it is all for show. how many have complained that it seems lance already has the tour wrapped? disco just gave the rest of the tour hope, only to crush it on tomorrow's stage.


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## blurry (Mar 4, 2004)

i feel that the disco riders were blown up by the fast pace, by the time the hills hit they were toast


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## erol/frost (May 30, 2004)

weltyed said:


> disco took a rest day. in doing so, all other teams threw their cards on the table. compare compare today's GC to yesterday's. we now have the big players all in the top 10. disoc rested today, have a 'talk' tonight, then turn up the heat tomorrow. i think the following day is a rest day. that gives the other teams 2 days to freak out.
> 
> if lance was actually nervous, it was due to voigt being in the final breakaway and getting the time bonus. it is all for show. how many have complained that it seems lance already has the tour wrapped? disco just gave the rest of the tour hope, only to crush it on tomorrow's stage.



Check out The Paceline. LA himself says that he and Disco had a bad day today. Hopefully they can rebound for tomorrow but more important for Tuesday when the real test will begin.


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## ClimbElYunque (Jun 21, 2005)

*Resting... I don't think so.*

It was really bad to leave LA alone there
at the mercy of the other teams. So "resting" I don't buy it.
They needed to have at least 2 disco teammates at the 
end with LA. Man. So don't say that it was done by design
because is not good tactics. They just simply ran out of gas
today. They must hope for a better day tomorrow...


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2005)

cannondale_boy said:


> I think I might be up at 6:30am tomorrow for the full stage!
> What a great day... I kinda thought that last climb would be like this.
> .



3:30 am here!!!


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## esbike (Jul 4, 2005)

*keep the big picture in mind*



leadag said:


> he's not needed any excuses at this point... i was very impressed today... he did a great job controlling that mob on his own.


Yes, Lance looked great today. He withstood several attacks just fine. He let Kloden go because he was farther down on the GC and might get caught later (almost happened). 

Now everyone is high on Kloden and T-Mob. It is what makes the race fun, but everybody gets so caught up in the day by day results, they lose sight of the big picture. As Lance said, it is a 3 week bike race. That is a long haul and the first week is over with Lance 1:00 up on all rivals, a pretty solid start. So many times in the past someone has looked good on a day or two, only to lose big time shortly thereafter. I wouldn't be surprised if Kloden can't make the selection tomorrow as he looked completely gassed at the finish. By the way, where was Basso? I believe he finished in the final group but he did not attack Lance. Wonder what that means.

If I were a Vino or Basso fan, I would be thinking they need some major time into Lance once through the mountains in order to comfortable of the win at the final TT. In order for that to happen, they need about a 3 minute time swing. That seems unlikely. It would be interesting though to see someone else take yellow and then try to survive attacks from Lance.


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## nutmegger (Apr 4, 2004)

*I have to think strategy*



izibo said:


> But... is the lack of Disco performance a result of being tired and worn-out, or a strategy from Johan?


 Surely, Disco realizes that T-Mob has 3 legit GC contenders and the real mountains yet to come. Do they bother spending energy chasing down Kloden today when the Yellow Jersey is not in real jeopardy and time gains are marginal or do they wait until the real mountains when they may have to contend w/ attacks fm either Vino, Kloden, or Jan or all not to mention the other GC contenders. I think Disco should bide their time, make deals within the peloton and try to figure out who is leading for T-Mob. Bjarne could play a nice game of 3-rider Monty w/ Lance in the mountains and absolutely exhaust Discovery and Lance.


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## DSR (Oct 10, 2002)

I don't think anyone is saying LA/Disco should've chased Kloden. Just wondering where the general Disco support was at all. Vino was toying with folks and LA was left to defend on his own. Nothing major, but Postal/Disco is usually such a well-oiled machine that you rarely see LA out by himself except in extreme situations - beyond category GC attacks.

Scanning the results real quick, I think Disco was the only team (or at least major team) with only one rider (LA) in that :27 group. That's no strategy. That's an f-up. 

That being said, they'll probably drop the hammer tomorrow. S


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## tobu (Dec 19, 2004)

*Bad Day for Discovery*

It's not strategy. No team director worth his salt would leave his leader isolated against such a large group. Even if he intended to rest his team, Brunyeel would always leave 1 or 2 riders with Lance in case there's a crash or mechanical. The tour is long and Lance looked fairly decent, but it's not a good sign when the team comes apart on a Cat 2 climb with gentle gradients and you have assist riders in the first 30. Lance looked fairly decent, but it was a little worrying to see him riding midpack after covering the initial attacks. He also tended to sit on wheels after covering the attacks even though historically he would usually ride by their sides (or blow through them) after bridging up. He really had nothing to gain by showing that he was only having a mediocre day. Of course, Lance is a fighter and this is only a momentary lapse, but it does show that he is human.


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## mgp (Feb 3, 2004)

I turned on coverage for the last 10k or so and my first thought was "is the entire Disco team suffering from food poisoning or something??" That is the type of climb that Hincapie uses to ride 3/4 of the peleton off of his wheel. 

Tomorrow will be very interesting--if Disco falters again, we may actually have a race next week!


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## Piles (Jun 25, 2004)

*Why say that ?*

Why on earth would Lance say that his teams performance wasnt all that it could be, and that he to, was suffering? I can only imagine this will encourage T mobile and CSC to attack at every possibility tommorow especially going into the rest day. I wonder if theres a bit of mind games being played here. 
Savolldeli, the Giros winner, and superb show in the mountains dropped on the first day of climbing? Mmmm makes me think. Tommorow will be one not to miss im sure.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

Piles said:


> Why on earth would Lance say that his teams performance wasnt all that it could be, and that he to, was suffering? I can only imagine this will encourage T mobile and CSC to attack at every possibility tommorow especially going into the rest day. I wonder if theres a bit of mind games being played here.
> Savolldeli, the Giros winner, and superb show in the mountains dropped on the first day of climbing? Mmmm makes me think. Tommorow will be one not to miss im sure.


Doesn't make much sense. I think they sat up on purpose. Anyone who thinks that while Beltran, Chechu, Savoldeli can time trial better than most best time trialists, but then they fail on the first day of relatively moderate climbs - their actual discipline - are out to lunch. You will see tomorrow and then some.


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## erol/frost (May 30, 2004)

MaRider: I really hope that you are right, but it doesn`t make any sense. Ok that LA might pull a prank once in a while (see 2001 Tour), but the ENTIRE team leaving their captain, while clad in yellow, alone for his worst opponents... Something is not right. 

But, hope they drop the hammer tomorrow indeed.


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## duckstrap (Mar 8, 2002)

*Strategy?*

I agree--could be a strategy. Disco gets a (semi) rest day while everybody else hammers. Also, it puts Georgie in a place where he might be allowed to get in a break for the win. After last year's showing in the mountains and the TTT this year, I can't believe couldn't control the race if they wanted to. OTOH, maybe they just got a little careless.


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

*My gut reaction is to agree with you.*



MaRider said:


> Doesn't make much sense. I think they sat up on purpose. Anyone who thinks that while Beltran, Chechu, Savoldeli can time trial better than most best time trialists, but then they fail on the first day of relatively moderate climbs - their actual discipline - are out to lunch. You will see tomorrow and then some.


It was a transition day for Lance and Disco. Riding up an incline changes the muscle fibers used, so when the day comes along where the hills start it nice not to kill yourself. Perhaps it was a bluff or perhaps it was a bit of "hill rust", but it doesn't matter. The discos can climb and they will. Unless there is a bug going thru the team, my bet is they took a powder today.

I am a sports photographer so I see alot of sports up close and personal. It almost never fails that when a slightly inferior team seems to temporarily gain an advantage they quickly become over confident and end up getting beat in the end. That's simply a well known fact of pyschological momentum among sportsmen. I can see that Lance is using that now with his post race comments regardless of why there was an appearent slip in the team's performance today.

IMHO, Lance is going about it just right. Having said that, T-mobile with 3 men like Vino, Ullrich, and a revitalized Kloden would have me concerned. Perhaps it will turn out to be a good race, but I doubt it. I suspect LA and Co. will take several minutes out of the other GC riders Tue - Thur. 

But what do I know?


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

*Cmon*

whats to worry about? Lets say Vino or Kloden takes off, Lance can keep up with their efforts all day long. Jan will HAVE to follow. Only chance is if one of them attacks like 150 kilos out for a solo which won't most likely happen. 

So if Vino attacks Lance can follow, if Kloden attacks Lance can follow, Jan has attacked I think once in the last 6 years?? So............


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## nwilkes (Jun 21, 2004)

duckstrap said:


> I agree--could be a strategy. Disco gets a (semi) rest day while everybody else hammers. Also, it puts Georgie in a place where he might be allowed to get in a break for the win. After last year's showing in the mountains and the TTT this year, I can't believe couldn't control the race if they wanted to. OTOH, maybe they just got a little careless.


I cannot remember where i heard this, but yesterday Lance said he would be chasing down attacks himself today.


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## Shockee (Feb 12, 2004)

francois said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> - Team Discovery <--- weak!! The much touted team sucked! IL Falco covered the first attack by Vino. Then pffft. Lance was left to cover the next 10 attacks. That was soo weak. I hope Bruyneel yells at all of you tonight. This lack of support in the big mountains has exposed Lance to free-for-all of attacks and has breathed new confidence into all the contenders.
> 
> ...



Early, Early Early!

Yes, Disco should have been represented, but today was not a day to make any time. The climb was shallow and short, everyone is not yet sure of their legs. Not much could be accomplished, so Disco was not on edge today. 

I think Lance is lying through his teeth about not feeling well, though: good strategy on his part, but we've seen it before and no rider will be duped this time. Ullrich knows not to attack early again, so I don't even expect him to put the screws on LA until late-day climbs in the Pyrenees. A few contendres will attack over the next 3 days, and none will gain any time on LA, but will thin the herd down to 4 contenders or so. I fully expect to see Vino on the podium, and don't yet have a clue who else will stand beside LA in Paris.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Maybe it wasn't the entire team having a bad day*



MaRider said:


> Doesn't make much sense. I think they sat up on purpose. Anyone who thinks that while Beltran, Chechu, Savoldeli can time trial better than most best time trialists, but then they fail on the first day of relatively moderate climbs - their actual discipline - are out to lunch. You will see tomorrow and then some.


 I think you could possibly say this about Beltran and Chechu, but Savoldeli I'm not so sure. Climbing isn't exactly his specialty. As others have mentioned it makes no sense to leave LA entirely alone. I think maybe two riders were "supposed" to have stuck with LA to help and they were the ones having a bad day. George went out on a break (as short as it may have been) earlier in the stage and as you noted, I find it hard to believe that Beltran and Chechu (and Azevedo) couldn't keep up. Maybe Popo & Il Falco were assigned the duties today and failed.


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

*Good points all*



CARBON110 said:


> whats to worry about? Lets say Vino or Kloden takes off, Lance can keep up with their efforts all day long. Jan will HAVE to follow. Only chance is if one of them attacks like 150 kilos out for a solo which won't most likely happen.
> 
> So if Vino attacks Lance can follow, if Kloden attacks Lance can follow, Jan has attacked I think once in the last 6 years?? So............


I said perhaps it would be a good race, but I doubt it. Hey, at least there is a good chance that it will be a good race next year.


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## ctxcrossx (Jul 8, 2004)

*Yeah... I call BS too*

The discovery team is a climbing powerhouse. This is the specialty of many of their riders. There's no way that ALL of them had a bad day. Especially on such an easy stage, a flat route with one cat 2 climb? Come on!

What likely happened, is that the team went with Lance just to make sure he was feeling strong enough. When Lance was sure he could fend off all attacks, he just sent them to cruise home, so they wouldn't wear themselves out. Now he can use them better on other stages.

Personally, based on the size of the pack climbing, I don't think it was too hard of a push up the hill. No reason to waste team discovery energy.

Chris


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

B2 said:


> I think you could possibly say this about Beltran and Chechu, but Savoldeli I'm not so sure. Climbing isn't exactly his specialty. As others have mentioned it makes no sense to leave LA entirely alone. I think maybe two riders were "supposed" to have stuck with LA to help and they were the ones having a bad day. George went out on a break (as short as it may have been) earlier in the stage and as you noted, I find it hard to believe that Beltran and Chechu (and Azevedo) couldn't keep up. Maybe Popo & Il Falco were assigned the duties today and failed.


Come on, you don't win Giro twice without some very impressive climbing skills. He may not be the "purest" climber, but he can climb with Beltran and Chechu and then some.
Same goes for Popo. 

I agree with the previous poster - the most likely scenario was that Lance/Bruneel called off the guys once they saw there was a big enough group and they were just a few minutes away from the top of the climb.


As to what possible strategy may be behind this - in addition to preserving the energy of the team, "playing possum" may mean that other teams with GC aspirations will have to take some responsibility chasing down escapees, instead of expecting Disco boys to do all the work. 

Speaking of Il Falco, I believe that even if Savoldelli was hurting, he could still bring himself up to the lead group by his descending skills alone in the final 15 km, if it was really that important to Disco.


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## flipnidaho (Feb 15, 2005)

*Quote from Savoldelli (Cylcingnews.com)*

Looks like LA told him to back off probably to save him for later stages... If so, that must mean that LA was confident he can cover anything Ulrich, Basso, Vino could throw down...


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

*No way...*

There is absolutely NO way that Bruyneel leaves Lance unprotected for that long. Have you EVER seen him alone for that much time the last few years? There's a reason for that...one bonk, one flat, slight mechanical problem, wipeout...you name it and his Tour could be over. He would always have at least one guy with him to pace him, trade bikes, give him food, etc.

The fact of the matter must be that the Disco boys have been pushing it hard all week and then today they were pacing for a good bit of the day. When they hit that climb the pace was VERY fast, gradient was low and it didn't suit the climber legs on day one. 

They'll all be fine, probably recover tomorrow and likely put on a show this week but there's just no way that Lance is left alone on purpose.

Charles


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

*You guys are nuts!*

Let's think about this one guys. Save the team's energy and leave Lance hanging? On the team that has been 100% behind Lance for the past 6 years? What are you guys smoking!?!

As for it being a ploy or some kind of head game, they must have a strange idea of a head game, giving up 39 seconds to a possible GC contender (remains to be seen)

That being said, who knows what happened out there? Not me, but why would they sit up and leave him hanging? What if he got a flat, he would've had to wait for a teammate for a minute and a half. That's insane, there's no way they would let that happen!

Silas


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## RodeRash (May 18, 2005)

*Bite Me ! ! !*

A half dozen times I've tried posting to this thread. Software "jumps" around and I lose my post. 

Who's the jerk who posted the wide image? Now the thread is impossible to read. 

Best stage yet! Too bad we can't say that for this thread.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

izibo said:


> This wouldn't be the craziest thing Johan has done... remember how Lance looked like he was about to keel over in 2001?


Yes it would faking being weak own't lose you 30+ seconds for wheel change like flatting with no team mates would. Disco f'ed up today full stop this is not a strategy it's mistake and a failing on the part of the team. Hopfully they will bounce back or Lance is in trouble.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

flipnidaho said:


> If so, that must mean that LA was confident he can cover anything Ulrich, Basso, Vino could throw down...


Yeah. That's why he let the man who finished second last year ride off the front. If you were going to give your team a rest you would designate one lieutenant to stay by his side and respond to attacks by contenders while the rest were gold bricking for the day.

I'll have to watch it again, but the way a small group just flew by Armstrong when he should have been making a good pace and then instead of immediately following he just sits on Ullrich's wheel doesn't look promising. Maybe just a bad day, though.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I'm reading all these theories that Discovery was playing possum, that getting shelled today was their strategy.

I don't want to offend y'all but this is just pure DELUSION! C'mon, let's just call a duck a duck.

They had a bad day. They'll have a talk and hopefully they'll rebound to fight another day.

It is a long race. But there are two pivotal stages in a long tour like this. First is the Prologue or time trial and the second is the first mountain stage. These stages reveal the real form of the riders... to themselves and to the world. They set the tone.

This bad showing by Discovery has motivated the other contenders. They now feel the armor can be penetrated. More attacks are now going to come. WHY on earth would Discovery motivate other teams.

Bad things could have happened to Lance today. Kloden could have gained a minute. Basso could have attacked. It was chaos. Lance and Bruyneel lost what they covet the most... control. It was a lucky break that another team took up the chase. Lance was at the mercy of the lead group at that point.

Perfect stage I say. Lance is still heavily favored but Vino has opened it up a little.

francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

RodeRash said:


> Who's the jerk who posted the wide image? Now the thread is impossible to read.


Someone posted 'code' that screwed up the page. It's fixed now.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Disco got hammered. Let's see if they can fight another day

<img src="http://bluezy.com/carolineyang/TDF%202005%20Images/STG8/DSC_0779DiscoveryBoys.jpg">

Caroline Yang photography
http://carolineyang.com/


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## esbike (Jul 4, 2005)

I agree that it is doubtful that today was all strategy. Probably part strategy and part miscalculation. Also, smaller riders who are real climbers have a bigger advantage when the road is really steep. Fast paced category 2's are not their terrain and maybe they did get gassed. 

As far as Lance's condition this year, everything before today indicated he is in fantastic shape, looking great in the prologue and TTT. If you think back to the first mountain stage of every tour after 2001, he wasn't as good as he was the next day. Maybe he didn't feel great today. But he rode within himself and didn't let any major threats get away. Even Kloden himself said after today "I'm finished". 

Also, can someone explain to me how having 2 or 3 guys near Lance in time on the same team adds up to one winner? If Vino attacks and Lance follows but Ullrich doesn't, yes that may tire Lance out, but he's also ahead of Ullrich at that point, so now Ullrich is losing time. My point being is that at some point Tmob and CSC are going to have to have one real leader and that guy will be Lance's target. Having another teammate around won't mean that much. Are Basso or Ullrich really going to let a teammate go off the front, put major time in Lance and win the tour de france? At some point you have to believe they want to maximize their own chances.


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

francois said:


> Disco got hammered. Let's see if they can fight another day
> 
> <img src="http://bluezy.com/carolineyang/TDF%202005%20Images/STG8/DSC_0779DiscoveryBoys.jpg">
> 
> ...


Don't you find it the tiniest bit odd that the entire team goes from riding at the front yesterday to getting dropped _en masse_ today? As though they've not climbed a single C2 hill all season? You think they might have trained at this intensity some time in the months leading up to the Tour?

Meanwhile, the team leader miraculously manages to stay with the front bunch, alone, a bunch that contains all of the contenders and none of them has the legs, _as a group_, to ride him off their wheels? JU didn't attack at all, Vino got countered every time. JU and Vino couldn't do something together? He was alone afterall. None of them is in superior condition to LA?

Great entertainment, but I think there is more to this story than what we saw on OLN.


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## MaRider (Mar 21, 2002)

esbike said:


> Also, can someone explain to me how having 2 or 3 guys near Lance in time on the same team adds up to one winner? If Vino attacks and Lance follows but Ullrich doesn't, yes that may tire Lance out, but he's also ahead of Ullrich at that point, so now Ullrich is losing time.


The key here is that T-Mobile wins if any of the T-mobile guys win. Doesn't matter if it's Vino or Kloden or Ullrich.

If Vino attacks, and gets a gap, and Lance gets to chase him personally while Ullrich got Lance's wheel, it means Lance is spending energy, and Ullrich was resting.

So either Vino gets time on Ullrich, or Lance chases Vino and Ullrich attacks (later) and gets time on Lance.

Win-Win.


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## |brake-out| (Feb 23, 2004)

If you show weakness today, doesn't that encourage an early attack tomorrow ?

Seems to me that would be a killer plan, let someone go on a break, pretend that you can't cover it and that the team is hurting, then crank up the juice and reel them back in....only to be dropped like yesterday's newspaper.


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## StormShadow (Feb 27, 2005)

terry b said:


> Meanwhile, the team leader miraculously manages to stay with the front bunch, alone, a bunch that contains all of the contenders and none of them has the legs, _as a group_, to ride him off their wheels? JU didn't attack at all, Vino got countered every time. JU and Vino couldn't do something together? He was alone afterall. None of them is in superior condition to LA?
> 
> Great entertainment, but I think there is more to this story than what we saw on OLN.


This is exactly what I took from today's stage. The Disco problems aside, how the heck can T-Mobile let Lance hang there isolated from his team? Vino went off a couple of times and yes Lance countered, but it wasn't anything with authority. He just kinda cought back up to Vino. Jan didn't make a single move himself. What was he waiting for, an inviation!?


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Ullrich made a big mistake there by letting Lance sit on his wheel and brining hm back to Vino. Instead, he should of just laid back and let Lance do the work. He's experienced enough to know Lance has to counter Vino regardless.


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## esbike (Jul 4, 2005)

francois said:


> Disco got hammered. Let's see if they can fight another day
> 
> I've changed my mind. Definitely a bluff. Why? Remember 2003? Lance would never admit weakness, even when he was weak. "My brake pad was rubbing", "I got dehydrated". People started complaining about his excuses. This year they have a "bad day" and he's going on and on about how he suffered, he wasn't good, the team was bad. I think he knew he could handle things on the cat 2 climb and they played possum. People respond "why would they want to encourage their competitors?!!" Well, why would he want to encourage Telekom to drive hard up Le Alp D'Huez in 2001? They wore themselves out driving a hard pace and dragging him up to the climb. A three week race is all about attrition and recovery. I saw the race in 2002 and Once won the TTT and Galdeano was in yellow and they were all full of themselves, thinking they had Lance right where they wanted him. They rode hard up the Pyrennes and then only Beloki could hang with Lance and then he dropped him. Lance is a master of strategy and mind games.


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## nwilkes (Jun 21, 2004)

MaRider said:


> The key here is that T-Mobile wins if any of the T-mobile guys win. Doesn't matter if it's Vino or Kloden or Ullrich.
> 
> If Vino attacks, and gets a gap, and Lance gets to chase him personally while Ullrich got Lance's wheel, it means Lance is spending energy, and Ullrich was resting.
> 
> ...


I think this was TMobs plan before everyone lost 1 minute + to LA in the 1st stage. It is only really going to work if AK, AV and JU can pull in under 45s. Otherwise LA has enough cushion. No TMob guys will win by riding LAs wheel while down 60+ seconds. 

If I was in charge I'd have begged JU and AV to attack, mark LA as he bridges and then *counter*, especially today when he was at his most vulnerable. Repeat. 
Not exactly revolutionary (and an awfully early move), but how often do you get the chance to gang up on LA. With LA clearly marking Vino and JU one of them should have been able to get time, LA isn't that strong. If this was TMob at their best and most aggressive they are going to lose again. 

Kudos to rabobank for keeping things unpredictable - do they just work on attacking in the their training camps or what?

Beloki looks surprisingly OK right now. I hope he is finding his legs a little bit at a time.


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

*Right and Wrong at the same time*



francois I don't want to offend y'all but this is just pure DELUSION! C'mon said:


> In order to crush somebone's hopes, you must give them hope. In addition, the more they believe in their hopes the harder they will fall when they begin to doubt.
> 
> Your words above make the case for possum playing better than any I have heard.
> 
> ...


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## The Flash (May 6, 2002)

*Gearing Change of some kind?*

Did one of the commentators say something about Disco changing their gearing before today's stage? Also something about Lance keeping his the same?

Just speculating....

The Flash


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## DW4477 (Feb 4, 2005)

nwilkes said:


> I cannot remember where i heard this, but yesterday Lance said he would be chasing down attacks himself today.


He also said pre race that it might be a good day to give up the yellow jersey


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## Ignatz (Sep 9, 2004)

*T-Mobile team meeting*

Forget being a fly on the wall at the Disco team meeting tonight, I want to be at T-Mob's. Can't you just hear Vino (cue Slavic accent), "We must ATTACK them tomorrow; attack on the climbs, attack at the start...attack them on the bus...ATTACK THEM NOW!!" as he runs from the room screaming incoherently, waving a pedal wrench over his head....

God I love to watch Vino ride.


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

nwilkes said:


> I think this was TMobs plan before everyone lost 1 minute + to LA in the 1st stage. It is only really going to work if AK, AV and JU can pull in under 45s. Otherwise LA has enough cushion. No TMob guys will win by riding LAs wheel while down 60+ seconds.
> 
> If I was in charge I'd have begged JU and AV to attack, mark LA as he bridges and then *counter*,



Yes. Beyond the implosion/bluff by Disco, why on earth didn't Jan attack after Vino had gone a few times? At least throw it in the big ring (he was probably already there) and take a shot. Had Jan gained even 5 seconds at the top of the climb it would have been a moral victory. Now I agree with those who think that Vino is their main threat. 

Kloden's attack was interesting. What a great pedaling style. but to lose the stage like that reminded me of last year when Lance pipped him. He should have rode Weening (a rookie who had been on a 4 hour break) off his wheel or, with 30 seconds in hand, played cat and mouse at the end. 

Too bad Horner is on the 3rd worst team (after AG2R and Boogie (in liggett-speak) Telecom. Put him on back on FDJ with McGee and watch out...Still if he's crafty he could be top 12. Don't think his TT is up to snuff with the rest of the GC types.


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## kokaku (Jul 14, 2002)

There was a point made that by Lance being left alone, any mechanical, food shortage or other problem would have put him in serious jeapardy. However, in the end, there were no problems and the GC is pretty much the same as it was yesterday (Voigt and Kloden moved up, Hincapie moved down, but not much change otherwise in time differences). Sure, hindsight is 20-20, but all this talk about Disco being in trouble seems a bit overblown. CSC and T-Mob are now well positioned - if they can maintain the same level of attacking, then it comes down to who cracks first. So far, Lance is able to mark their attacks; there's still the ITT in the final week (which if the past is any measure, Lance will take a minute out of his rivals on). All said, a more exciting first week than usual - I wouldn't be too worried about Disco at this point.


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## B2 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Savoldeli's comments support this*



Utah CragHopper said:


> If you were going to give your team a rest you would designate one lieutenant to stay by his side and respond to attacks by contenders while the rest were gold bricking for the day.


 Savoldeli: "On the final climb, I closed a gap on Vinokourov and could have stayed there but Armstrong told me to back off. I wasn't even one of the riders who were supposed to stay with (Armstrong) today."

Sounds like someone was supposed to stick close and wasn't able to do so. Kind of odd that Armstrong told his one and only team mate left to ease up let everyone go.

Given the moderate grade of the final climb today, it's possible that this whole deal is really nothing at all and they ride half the peloton off their wheels on the steeper climbs like past years.


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## ctxcrossx (Jul 8, 2004)

This would make a great poll. I wonder the percentage of people who think it was a bluff vs. real agony.

Chris


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

*The last time....*



kokaku said:


> There was a point made that by Lance being left alone, any mechanical, food shortage or other problem would have put him in serious jeapardy. However, in the end, there were no problems and the GC is pretty much the same as it was yesterday (Voigt and Kloden moved up, Hincapie moved down, but not much change otherwise in time differences). Sure, hindsight is 20-20, but all this talk about Disco being in trouble seems a bit overblown. CSC and T-Mob are now well positioned - if they can maintain the same level of attacking, then it comes down to who cracks first. So far, Lance is able to mark their attacks; there's still the ITT in the final week (which if the past is any measure, Lance will take a minute out of his rivals on). All said, a more exciting first week than usual - I wouldn't be too worried about Disco at this point.


...Lance suffered a flat in the tour. Uh, Lance has never had a flat in the tour. I wouldn't worry either.


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

*I want to...*



Ignatz said:


> Forget being a fly on the wall at the Disco team meeting tonight, I want to be at T-Mob's. Can't you just hear Vino (cue Slavic accent), "We must ATTACK them tomorrow; attack on the climbs, attack at the start...attack them on the bus...ATTACK THEM NOW!!" as he runs from the room screaming incoherently, waving a pedal wrench over his head....
> 
> God I love to watch Vino ride.


...party with you Mister. You sir know the deal.

You seem to see it exactly as I see it. Make the lil boy (vino) believe. Just before you kick him in the head and drag him through the streets nakid.

If I have inadvertantly ascribed to you an incorrect reading of your post I apologize. I still want to party with you. That pedal wrench thing was genius.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

jbrumm said:


> ...Lance suffered a flat in the tour. Uh, Lance has never had a flat in the tour. I wouldn't worry either.


Uh, he had at least one. A few years ago he started the final stage with a pair of wheels with yellow spokes. At the finish, he had one standard wheel, one with yellow spokes. There might have been more.


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## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

I got a kick out of Floyd's attack, right by Lance, as if to say "Brass town bald this".


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## mr meow meow (Jan 29, 2004)

*Ha Ha!*



Ignatz said:


> Forget being a fly on the wall at the Disco team meeting tonight, I want to be at T-Mob's. Can't you just hear Vino (cue Slavic accent), "We must ATTACK them tomorrow; attack on the climbs, attack at the start...attack them on the bus...ATTACK THEM NOW!!" as he runs from the room screaming incoherently, waving a pedal wrench over his head....
> 
> God I love to watch Vino ride.


That made me laugh out loud. I never laugh out loud.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

DSR said:


> While I appreciate the constant OLN coverage, they had kind of a weak showing today, huh? Once the attacks started, I'm thinking "where's Discovery?!" But there was no mention by Paul/Phil till a brief mention well into the climb. They swung and missed on that one, especially considering LA's comments right afterward. This is the big story. Discovery out to lunch!
> 
> And how come OLN didn't have coverage or a feed for the photo finish? All you need is a camera at the line. They have cameras all over the roads, you think that they would have one lined up at the line. I'm sure they're sharing cameras amongst all the Euro networks. Maybe that camera feed at the finish was down for everyone. Kinda strange though.
> 
> Nice work T Mobile! Things are looking a bit more interesting now going into the mountains! S


I have noticed that while Phil and Paul know their history, current riders, etc., more and more frequently they blow calls, misinterpret rider motivations, and miss important moves while they're fixated on something else. If you listen to Bob Roll call a race, he's really on top of that. Especially in a sprint finish. If I knew French or Flemish, I'd love to listen in on a French, Belgian, or Italian commentator to see how much better they are. 
One thing I've seen in the past few years, and I'm willing to bet money on this year, you will NOT have a camera covering the yellow jersey crossing the finishing line in Paris.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

jbrumm said:


> ...party with you Mister. You sir know the deal.
> 
> You seem to see it exactly as I see it. Make the lil boy (vino) believe. Just before you kick him in the head and drag him through the streets nakid.
> 
> If I have inadvertantly ascribed to you an incorrect reading of your post I apologize. I still want to party with you. That pedal wrench thing was genius.


I think you underestimate the competition. Klöden was just on German TV stating that Disco probably will come out swinging hard today and that it's a fatal mistake to underestimate them. All these guys are top pros. Hardly the types who would let the champagne bubbles rise to their head.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

flipnidaho said:


> Looks like LA told him to back off probably to save him for later stages... If so, that must mean that LA was confident he can cover anything Ulrich, Basso, Vino could throw down...


Back off or get dropped anyway? He was all over his bike trying to close the first gap that Vino opened up and I don't think he ever did it, Lance came around him. The second part of his quote was that he wasn't designated to stay with Lance today, so the question is where were those guys?


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

francois said:


> - Team Discovery <--- weak!! The much touted team sucked! IL Falco covered the first attack by Vino. Then pffft. Lance was left to cover the next 10 attacks. That was soo weak. I hope Bruyneel yells at all of you tonight. This lack of support in the big mountains has exposed Lance to free-for-all of attacks and has breathed new confidence into all the contenders.


Oh come ON Frankie! The Discoveries aren't THAT bad! Lance give 'em the day off to rest up for the real hills. He could risk the Mallet Johnny and how much time could he really lose yesterday? He doesn't need that jersey right now. Let the others wear themselves out.

No folks, it's another Lance rope-a-dope. The Discoveries are gonna rip Vino & Jan an extra arsehole today.


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## Utah CragHopper (May 9, 2003)

Mike T. said:


> No folks, it's another Lance rope-a-dope. The Discoveries are gonna rip Vino & Jan an extra arsehole today.


Yeah, sure. The most Disco can do is set a pace that will hurt the small climbers, and those guys are not in real contention anyway. Big, strong riders like Ullrich, Vino, and Basso will simply sit in Dico's slipstream and get a free ride to the line. Disco fatigues the team with no effect on an Ullrich type of rider.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

Lance is going to loose yellow today.


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## gregario (Nov 19, 2001)

*back to the winner of the stage....*

Is it just me or did it look like Weening blew chunks just seconds before the line? I had to replay the tape a couple of times and it sure looks like he spewed something.


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## rocco (Apr 30, 2005)

This is like sooo yesterday.


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