# Can Armstrong sprint?



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

A lot of people seem to assume he can't. I beg to differ. 

In evidence I offer:
- his very first Tour stage win, stage 8 in 1993, where he came from the back of a breakaway group, up a skinny gap along the crowd barriers, for the win
- the Tour of Georgia stage 3, 2004, a pack finish, downhill, after a short steep hill on the run-in. 

I will concede that LA rarely does sprint. Because he doesn't need to. Many (most?) of his one-day / stage wins are solo. Heck if I had the ability to ride in solo, I would too.

But. While he's not field sprinter - McEwen, Zabel, Boonen, Cavendish would leave a nice gap on him - I maintain that he is a danger man in a small group / breakaway sprint. 

What's your view?


----------



## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

Is your question in reference in regards to today or the past?


----------



## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Pre-cancer Armstrong had a bit of a sprint, but he could never go against true sprinters. He was always more dangerous as a late attacker, perhaps in the same fashion as Fabian Cancellara today.


----------



## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

No vote. It totally depends on your definition of sprint and who it's relative to.


----------



## eddymerckx#1 (Aug 5, 2005)

every1 can sprint,but amongst sprinters he'd come in last all the time for sure


----------



## jupiterrn (Sep 22, 2006)

I'm with you Creak. I thnk he can if he needs to but in a flat out sprinter on sprinter I don't think he would do well. Again, just from the little I have seen, I don't think he ever "needed" to sprint that much.


----------



## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

Everyone has a sprint. But lance doesn't contend behind leadout train, alla Pettacchi, Zabel, Boonen, Cav. Mano y mano at the end of a mountaintop finale, yes.


----------



## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Compared to top level pro sprinters...No.

Compared to top level pro climbers...Yes.

Compared to top level pro riders that are more break away riders...Yes.

Compared to the average joe....Definately yes.


----------



## jtw1n (Sep 20, 2008)

I think trying to discern someone's sprinting abilities from small breakaways is kinda odd. In a smaller breakway the average sprinting ability of those riders is greatly reduced by the greater force it takes to get a small group away and off the front of the main field. I agree lance can win in small breakaways he will never win a large field sprint.


----------



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

You already excluded bunch sprint so i agree he can't there, but his high sustained power output would definitely make him deadly in a breakaway finish since he'd probably be fairly fresh when the breakaway has 500m to go.


----------



## Stogaguy (Feb 11, 2006)

*+1*

I agree that it is all relative. I voted "no" because I view this question without qualifiers like a "small group". In a true field sprint at the pro level he would get dusted every time by the real fast boys. In fact, I question if he even has a "lead out" quality sprint. That said, in a small group after a hard selection over really tough terrine he is probably about as dangerous as they come.


----------



## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Stogaguy said:


> in a small group after a hard selection over really tough terrine he is probably about as dangerous as they come.


In a small group after a hard selection over really tough terrain _*Valverde*_ is probably about as dangerous as they come.


----------



## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

Puhlease. Even in the smallest group possible, up against the guy who never won a monument because he can't sprint his way out of a burning house, he still comes 2nd (to Boogerd in Amstel '99). See attached Lance's reaction when he heard about this poll.


----------



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

He'll kick YOUR ass : )


----------



## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

Did anyone think he would win a field sprint? 
I think the question is whether he is better than average, i.e. can win from a small group. In other words when you have that small group breakaway coming into town, and Phil Ligget starts running down the guys that can sprint out of that group and who cant, what would he say about LA? So I guess I vote yes.


----------



## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Did you know that American Olympic BMXer Donny Robinson (all 5'5", 150lbs of him) has the highest power to weight ratio that the U.S. cycling coaches have ever seen? Robinson's comment when asked if he would consider track racing; "Boring!"

BTW, Great Britain's Jamie Staff is a BMXer

Those dang BMXers on little kid's bikes - always kicking everybody's asses.


----------



## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

bmxhacksaw said:


> Did you know that American Olympic BMXer Donny Robinson (all 5'5", 150lbs of him) has the highest power to weight ratio that the U.S. cycling coaches have ever seen? Robinson's comment when asked if he would consider track racing; "Boring!"


Not sure what that has to do with anything, or this poll. Power to weight ratio is not worth much on the track. Power to drag is what you need.


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Ok, it's LA, Cunego, Valverde, Basso, and (for spice) Cancellara after a tough course but with a flat 500 meters finish. 

Who wins?

JSR


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

bigmig19 said:


> Did anyone think he would win a field sprint?
> I think the question is whether he is better than average, i.e. can win from a small group. In other words when you have that small group breakaway coming into town, and Phil Ligget starts running down the guys that can sprint out of that group and who cant, what would he say about LA? So I guess I vote yes.


Why? I wouldn't list him as a favorite unless it was a sprint at the top of the long climb which may come down to nothing more than the other guys being red-lined already.

Armstrong was outsprinted by both Dekker and Boogerd, not exactly fast guys. Sure there were extenuating circumstances in the Boogerd case, but he is the poster-boy for the guys with no sprint.


----------



## iherald (Oct 13, 2005)

When it's him versus Basso on the top of a mountain, he can sprint his legs off. As the OP said, I don't think that he's going to beat Boonen, but he still had some gitty up and go in those legs.


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

iherald said:


> When it's him versus Basso on the top of a mountain, he can sprint his legs off. As the OP said, I don't think that he's going to beat Boonen, but he still had some gitty up and go in those legs.


Well that might not be a real sprint. It might just be a red-lined guy vs. a guy who got something left. Nobody can sprint very well if they're tapped out when the sprint starts.

Of course he can't outsprint Boonen, but there are plenty of fast guys (e.g. Valverde, Rebellin, Cunego, Bettini, Gilbert) that have no or little shot against a real sprinter. I wouldn't put Armstrong in the group of guys who'd you expect to take out the sprint from a small group, which seems like a reasonable criteria for if a guy has a respectable sprint or not.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Susan Walker said:


> Power to weight ratio is not worth much on the track. Power to drag is what you need.


They're hardly independent.


----------



## Susan Walker (Mar 21, 2008)

asgelle said:


> They're hardly independent.


You're right. They have the same numerator.


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Cancellara has come up a couple times. We all remember his TdF win against the sprinters, with a last-k solo in a flat, sprinters stage. 

I think that's instructive, since FC and LA are both strong time trialists. The big difference being, LA is going to be a marked man in every race. FC might have attained that status too though, but before, he was able to escape and beat the chase.

Anyway... just idle speculation based on his planned return to non-TdF races.


----------



## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Susan Walker said:


> You're right. They have the same numerator.


No, what I mean is CdA has been shown to scale with body mass. You've read up on allometric scaling, right?


----------



## MaestroXC (Sep 15, 2005)

I think 37 year-old Lance, newly returned to the pro ranks, would rank a "no" in this poll.


----------



## monocognizant (Sep 12, 2008)

Oh Noooo, he can't sprint.... Here's the video to prove it. :mad2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yf1nJYkCHQ


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

...and there's this one of LA taking the bunch sprint in Sallanches at the '05 Dauphine' Libere over Vino, Botero and Leipheimer. Hincapie and Popo were up the road for 1st and 2nd.

FWIW- this stage was held on a course once used in a World Championship.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/jun05/dauphinelibere05/index.php?id=stage7/118


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

monocognizant said:


> Oh Noooo, he can't sprint.... Here's the video to prove it. :mad2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsv_7o3mQno&feature=related


I can't sprint worth a damn. But I've outsprinted a few other riders at the end of cross races where everyone is on the limit.

Watch the video again, the guys with Armstrong can't even muster a proper sprint effort, they're cooked. And I can't tell who they are, are any of them recognized fast men. Being the fastest finisher out of 5 non-sprinters doesn't mean someone has a good sprint.

I'll say it again. The guy was outsprinted by both Dekker and Boogerd in a proper, tactical roll in to the finish and sprint for the win situation. In my book that makes him a pretty weak sprinter.


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> And I can't tell who they are, are any of them recognized fast men.


Kloden, Ullrich, Basso, and Landis. Stage 17 of the '04 TdF. The one with Col du Glandon, Col de la Madelaine, Col de la Tamie, Col de la Forclaz, and Col de la Croix-Fry. It had been a reasonably difficult day.


----------



## ttug (May 14, 2004)

*why*

Why would he want to be a sprinter?

Take a look at great Sprinters and any GT.

Anybody here want to tell e what "great sprinter" a known sprinter who has won multiple GT's??

If you can climb and TT you will win a GT


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I can't sprint worth a damn. But I've outsprinted a few other riders at the end of cross races where everyone is on the limit.
> 
> Watch the video again, the guys with Armstrong can't even muster a proper sprint effort, they're cooked. And I can't tell who they are, are any of them recognized fast men. Being the fastest finisher out of 5 non-sprinters doesn't mean someone has a good sprint.
> 
> I'll say it again. The guy was outsprinted by both Dekker and Boogerd in a proper, tactical roll in to the finish and sprint for the win situation. In my book that makes him a pretty weak sprinter.


Ok Dwayne, you can use the "guys are cooked" argument both ways. How do you know the times Dekker and Boogerd beat LA, he wasn't cooked? 

And besides, isn't that the point of ProTour-level racing - to make the race really hard so only the strongest come to the line? 

So anyway, I'm hoping to see LA come to the line with a small group next year, and see what happens.


----------



## function (Jun 20, 2008)

asgelle said:


> No, what I mean is CdA has been shown to scale with body mass. You've read up on allometric scaling, right?


Said In the spirit of discussion, i would expect that the CdA of most pro cyclists given the same bike setup/position would be fairly close, to the point that the power required to propel said cyclists would be not directly co-related with their power/weight ratio. I think a practical example of this are the pure climbers (with really low weights and high power weight ratios) who cannot string out the peleton on the flats whilst the heftier rouleurs can.


----------



## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

ttug said:


> Why would he want to be a sprinter?


LA has said he will race "all the spring classics except Paris-Roubaix."


----------



## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

JSR said:


> Ok, it's LA, Cunego, Valverde, Basso, and (for spice) Cancellara after a tough course but with a flat 500 meters finish.
> 
> Who wins?
> 
> JSR


Valverde followed by Cunego. Along with Rebellin, Bettini, and DiLuca they are probably the top 5 "punchy" guys out there.


----------



## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

This is like asking if Robbie McEwen is a climber. Would blow away 95% of the recreational cyclists on here, but has zero chance against the pro climbers (or sprinters, for Armstrong).


----------



## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

moabbiker said:


> This is like asking if Robbie McEwen is a climber. Would blow away 95% of the recreational cyclists on here, but has zero chance against the pro climbers (or sprinters, for Armstrong).


There's no reason to think that incredible aerobic ability, which is the primary criteria for a professional cyclist, even the ones that sprint well also means they have a good neuromuscular power/anaerobic capacity required for sprinting. You could probably find any number of cat 3s or even 4s that could outsprint many a pro.


----------



## footballcat (Jul 8, 2004)

he can not sprint


----------



## logansites (Jan 4, 2007)

ttug said:


> Why would he want to be a sprinter?
> 
> Take a look at great Sprinters and any GT.
> 
> ...



Merckx. :thumbsup:


----------



## OnTheRivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> Valverde followed by Cunego. Along with Rebellin, Bettini, and DiLuca they are probably the top 5 "punchy" guys out there.


Garzelli definitley belongs in this group, about as good as Cunego. Rebellin isn't great really. Sanchez has a good kick also. Valverde is a freak, almost has "pure" sprinter speed.


----------



## joker (Jul 22, 2007)

:yikes: :lol: he can sprint........not as fast as me but he can sprint:yikes: :lol:


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

I think he can outsprint other good climbers save for Valverde perhaps.

On the flat, he can win ala Fabian Cancellara but can't sprint to win if any sprinter is there for sure.


----------



## spox (May 10, 2002)

http://cyclingnews.com/results/2001/apr01/amstel/results.shtml


----------



## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

If I remember correctly he was criticized at the time for being a one day racer


----------



## pdh777 (Oct 7, 2005)

What were the circumstances when he won worlds?


----------



## monocognizant (Sep 12, 2008)

pdh777 said:


> If I remember correctly he was criticized at the time for being a one day racer


Yeah, one day after another for three weeks


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

pdh777 said:


> What were the circumstances when he won worlds?


solo.

many (most?) of his one-day wins were solo.

like I said, if you can do it, solo is better. and he can do it.


----------

