# Specialized Vs. Giant



## ZeroHour911 (Jan 15, 2018)

 Hello,

I'm looking for one of these two bikes, and I don't know which one is better?.

Specialized Men's Pitch Sport 27.5

OR

Giant ARX 2 2018


Thank you,
 



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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Read reviews of each. Test each. Decide. Most of us have our biases. Oddly, color matters a fair amount. I tend to prefer Specialized bottom brackets for example versus Giant....maintenance of bottom brackets can color the ownership experience.

I will tell you, each company makes the finest bikes in the world. Both companies have serious engineering talent which manifests in the products they sell.


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## WRM4865 (Mar 4, 2015)

I'll concur what 11spd said both bikes are solid for what you want to spend however you might have better luck on finding out about the bikes on Forums - Mtbr.com rather than a road bike forum.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

11spd said:


> I will tell you, each company makes the finest bikes in the world. Both companies have serious engineering talent which manifests in the products they sell.


Only one of the companies manufactures their own bikes. The other has some 3rd party Chinese factories make their stuff. Not quite comparable if you ask me.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

And only one of those enjoys suing lots of people..... and so I wouldn't own one of those companies bikes.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

Newsflash:

Ride both bikes and chose the one you like best.


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## WRM4865 (Mar 4, 2015)

Srode said:


> And only one of those enjoys suing lots of people..... and so I wouldn't own one of those companies bikes.


So... companies shouldn't protect their intellectual property?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Does Trek make good bikes?


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

WRM4865 said:


> So... companies shouldn't protect their intellectual property?


if they actually own the intellectual property yes they should.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> Only one of the companies manufactures their own bikes. The other has some 3rd party Chinese factories make their stuff. Not quite comparable if you ask me.


Can you elaborate? My background is design...including copious manufacturers all over the world. If you haven't lived in this world, you don't understand. 3rd party? Who is the second tier?

Which manufacturer do you prefer and why? Have you ridden a 5th gen Tarmac and the latest model TCR? Tell me which bike is better and why.

Your post is myth...what guys adhere to that have no experience in design and mfg.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

At a very quick glance, I would say they are very similar, but the Specialized has slightly better spec. 8 speed vs 7 speed for example. Which makes sense, given the price difference.

Aluminum HT, same fork, neither is really worth upgrading over time. Either will work for trail riding for a while. 

Check mtbr.com, way more detailed info and feedback there. I mean I ride mtb, and have for decades, and know stuff, but really they will care more about helping you in detail than any road site will.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Srode said:


> I choose to spend my money where I believe the manufacturer is a good corporate citizen, that's my right. Not sure why you think this is a faux principle, can you elaborate?


Your belief that Specialized is unethical in their business practice from a guy who designed product in business for a living for several decades is without foundation.
The only reason they would sue or attempt to, is if they believe their trademarks or intellectual property are being infringed upon. The genius of Sinyard and Specialized should not be stolen by some undeserving upstart company trying to capitalized on Specialized deserved success. There is little benevolence in the shark tank world of competitive business. Court of law will decide on the ethics of valid business practices, fortunately not vigilante you.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> Only one of the companies manufactures their own bikes. The other has some 3rd party Chinese factories make their stuff. Not quite comparable if you ask me.


Interesting.. I am not sure which one you are referring to... but I am guessing you mean Specialized outsources (at least their lower end models, I know the high end models are still made in house (even if the factory is in Asia)).

Now Giant, started out as an OEM manufacturing for other cycling companies before creating their own brand (I am not sure what the name was). And I believe they still make bikes for many other brands in addition to their own lineup.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

11spd said:


> Your belief that Specialized is unethical in their business practice from a guy who designed product in business for a living for several decades is without foundation.
> The only reason they would sue or attempt to, is if they believe their trademarks or intellectual property are being infringed upon. The genius of Sinyard and Specialized should not be stolen by some undeserving upstart company trying to capitalized on Specialized deserved success. There is little benevolence in the shark tank world of competitive business. Court of law will decide on the ethics of valid business practices, fortunately not vigilante you.


I looked at the law suits, and only half of them were legitimate, the others.. not so much, as evidenced by the numerous suites dismissed by judges. There is nothing wrong with protecting your intellectual property or trademarks.

The issue with trademarks can be murky though, as the PTO in the US is way understaffed and sometimes rather oblivious in allowing common things that should not be trademarked to be trademarked. The Roubaix lawsuit comes to mind, in fact, Specialized is only a licensee, and not the owner, yet they still tried to sue.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

ljvb said:


> I looked at the law suits, and only half of them were legitimate, the others.. not so much, as evidenced by the numerous suites dismissed by judges. There is nothing wrong with protecting your intellectual property or trademarks.
> 
> The issue with trademarks can be murky though, as the PTO in the US is way understaffed and sometimes rather oblivious in allowing common things that should not be trademarked to be trademarked. The Roubaix lawsuit comes to mind, in fact, Specialized is only a licensee, and not the owner, yet they still tried to sue.


I laugh at your arm chair analysis. You know how many lawsuits any large auto manufacturer has pending at any given time? Thousands. Do you purchase what automobile you deem safe to place your family in by how many lawsuits a given car company has pending at a given time?

The lay public is clueless as proven time and again. The public is comprised of a subset of unscrupulous people that will attempt to sue an automobile manufacturer due to arm abrasion based upon a 50mph head on crash they walked away from which without the millions of dollars automakers invest in air bag development and crash testing would result in certain death. That is a subset of lawsuits other than desire to capitalize on intellectual property theft and trademark infringement. I am sure you 'looked into it' and have a complete grasp of the lay of the true landscape.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

WRM4865 said:


> So... companies shouldn't protect their intellectual property?


Sure. I, like many, have trouble stretching the imagination far enough to consider the name of a town in France either theirs or intellectual property though.
Nice avatar by the way. Are you paying licensing fees for that?


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

11spd said:


> I laugh at your arm chair analysis. You know how many lawsuits any large auto manufacturer has pending at any given time? Thousands. Do you purchase what automobile you deem safe to place your family in by how many lawsuits a given car company has pending at a given time?
> 
> The lay public is clueless as proven time and again. The public is comprised of a subset of unscrupulous people that will attempt to sue an automobile manufacturer due to arm abrasion based upon a 50mph head on crash they walked away from which without the millions of dollars automakers invest in air bag development and crash testing would result in certain death. That is a subset of lawsuits other than desire to capitalize on intellectual property theft and trademark infringement. I am sure you 'looked into it' and have a complete grasp of the lay of the true landscape.


Dude.. you are jumping all over the place.. and making little sense. There is a difference between thousands of suits by individuals against a manufacturer (which you are correct, most are frivolous), and a manufacturer using frivolous and ANTI SLAP type lawsuits against a smaller competitor, or business.

The issue I brought up happened to be Specialized, who licensed the name Roubaix from Fuji, suing a store owner who happened to have the name Roubaix in it. That is the definition of a frivolous lawsuit. A Legitimate one was the guy who named his bike way too similar to that of an existing model in the specialized line up. That can cause some confusion. 

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with defending your IP and trademarks, in fact you have to defend your trademarks or you risk dilution and the loss of it. 

I'm not sure where your outrage is coming from, or your definition of "arm chair analysis".. how do you know I am now a lawyer (I'm not), how do you know I am not familiar with trademark lawsuits.. (I am, in the context of general terms being trademarked and regular functions being trademarked when they should not be as I happen to work in the IT industry as a consultant, and have been party to some such suits)..

Relax, go drink a beer or something.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ljvb said:


> Relax, go drink a beer or something.


one of these might be fitting: https://traveltoeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/wpid-Photo-Sep-24-2010-827-AM.jpg


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## ROAD&DIRT (Mar 27, 2009)

Spoiler alert.... 

this is a road bike site my friend, why would you want MTB advise here? Jump ship and swim over to mtbr.com before the road-bike master leashes out with all his wrath


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

ljvb said:


> Dude.. you are jumping all over the place.. and making little sense. There is a difference between thousands of suits by individuals against a manufacturer (which you are correct, most are frivolous), and a manufacturer using frivolous and ANTI SLAP type lawsuits against a smaller competitor, or business.
> 
> The issue I brought up happened to be Specialized, who licensed the name Roubaix from Fuji, suing a store owner who happened to have the name Roubaix in it. That is the definition of a frivolous lawsuit. A Legitimate one was the guy who named his bike way too similar to that of an existing model in the specialized line up. That can cause some confusion.
> 
> ...


Sorry for any incendiary language as we are all friends here and would be on the road without keyboards for sure which obscures our passion for the sport and best intention. This subject is a bit of a peeve of mine. I had this role in industry a bit and know how public perception can be falsely shaped. Specialized has been thrown under the bus on this issue and I know the dynamic is largely misunderstood by the public.
OK to not agree. Your prerogative. Its ok btw for two companies to disagree about who has what right to what name. Specialized is largely responsible for creating the endurance genre carbon bicycle and of course they ‘lifted’ the name from the city in France as Jay mentioned who made the great race famous. This is a debatable subject on its face and even the veracity of the court comes into question. Large company with deep pockets and small company trying to be famous with perhaps more sympathy depending on liberal bias. Specialized came to the party first with the bike design that created perhaps the most famous bike design in history with this name. Others can decide whether Fuji with copy cat bike geometry and name deserve the same namesake as they were clearly trying to make bank off of Specialized's success.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

11spd said:


> Its ok btw for two companies to disagree about who has what right to what name. Specialized is largely responsible for creating the endurance genre carbon bicycle and of course they ‘lifted’ the name from the city in France as Jay mentioned who made the great race famous. This is a debatable subject on its face and even the veracity of the court comes into question. Large company with deep pockets and small company trying to be famous with perhaps more sympathy depending on liberal bias. Specialized came to the party first with the bike design that created perhaps the most famous bike design in history with this name. Others can decide whether Fuji with copy cat bike geometry and name deserve the same namesake as they were clearly trying to make bank off of Specialized's success.



Do yourself a favor and learn what is being discussed here. You clearly know nothing about the lawsuit that pissed people off.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Do yourself a favor and learn what is being discussed here. You clearly know nothing about the lawsuit that pissed people off.


Perhaps you could shed some light?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

11spd said:


> Sorry for any incendiary language as we are all friends here and would be on the road without keyboards for sure which obscures our passion for the sport and best intention. This subject is a bit of a peeve of mine. I had this role in industry a bit and know how public perception can be falsely shaped. Specialized has been thrown under the bus on this issue and I know the dynamic is largely misunderstood by the public.
> OK to not agree. Your prerogative. Its ok btw for two companies to disagree about who has what right to what name. Specialized is largely responsible for creating the endurance genre carbon bicycle and of course they ‘lifted’ the name from the city in France as Jay mentioned who made the great race famous. This is a debatable subject on its face and even the veracity of the court comes into question. Large company with deep pockets and small company trying to be famous with perhaps more sympathy depending on liberal bias. Specialized came to the party first with the bike design that created perhaps the most famous bike design in history with this name. Others can decide whether Fuji with copy cat bike geometry and name deserve the same namesake as they were clearly trying to make bank off of Specialized's success.


Even after editing it you're still completely clueless.

It's Fuji's trademark, Specialized didn't "come to the party first" with anything. They sued someone for a trademark that wasn't even theirs. Fuji saved the day by making Specialized back off because it wasn't even their name to sue over in the first place.

The big S are morally bankrupt, avoid at all costs.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> Even after editing it you're still completely clueless.
> 
> It's Fuji's trademark, Specialized didn't "come to the party first" with anything. They sued someone for a trademark that wasn't even theirs. Fuji saved the day by making Specialized back off because it wasn't even their name to sue over in the first place.
> 
> The big S are morally bankrupt, avoid at all costs.


I didn't edit anything.
Didn't come to the party first with anything? Who invented the endurance genre bicycle? Are you saying that its Fuji?
Fuji saved the day? Now that's rich. Did Fuji invent the city of Roubaix in France?

Who makes the most famous bicycle with the Roubaix name?...Specialized or Fuji?

Specialized makes the best bicycles in the world period.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

I think you missed the point. The point was not who makes a better bike, or who invented the better technology. 

The name Roubaix in the context of a bicycle, was a registered trademark of Fuji. Specialized entered in an agreement with Fuji to lease the name Roubaix for their bike line. 

The lawsuit in question was that a physical store used the name Roubaix, it was not attached to a product or product line. 

Specialized sued for the use of the name Roubaix. There are two issues, for Specialized to win the case, they would have to have actually been the owner of the trademark, which they were not, secondly they would have to have proved that the use of the name would have been confusing to the general populace. One being a store, the other being a product, this would have like been a loss for Specialized. If the store had a house brand generic bicycle they named Roubaix, then specialized would have had a case, if they had owned the trademark. 

Ultimately in that case, Fuji stepped in and told specialized to stand down.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

11spd said:


> Specialized makes the best bicycles in the world period.


Do they actually manufacture anything? Or are they just a design house with a huge law team? Why is their fork recall taking so long? Why did it happen?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

ljvb said:


> I think you missed the point. The point was not who makes a better bike, or who invented the better technology.
> 
> The name Roubaix in the context of a bicycle, was a registered trademark of Fuji. Specialized entered in an agreement with Fuji to lease the name Roubaix for their bike line.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that succinct recollection of what happened. Why would Fuji have the clout to tell Specialized to stand down?...even tho they owned the trademark? Specialized presumably was paying Fuji a handsome sum to use this name which they have done successfully now for 15 years?

I do see some level of overreach on the part of Specialized but I don't see this as being anything heinous.

Granted usage of the French Roubaix city as a name for a bike has undeniable cache and I can see why Specialized would like to use the name. But can you explain why Specialized elected to 'rent' the trademark from Fuji way back in early 2000? Seems like an odd dynamic. Why wouldn't Specialized simply choose another name if another bike company owned the rights. Do you know?


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> Do they actually manufacture anything? Or are they just a design house with a huge law team? Why is their fork recall taking so long? Why did it happen?


If you ever designed a product and sourced it, you would have an answer to your rheotorical question any design engineer understands innately.

Difference between Specialized and other bike companies? Specialized recalls discrepant product that gets out into the field. Other companies that make even more inferior product? They don't.

Here's a dirty secret that the lay public has no idea about. Every fortune 500 company that manufacturers safety critical product has a dedicated task force to decide the risk of shipping product that sits on the manufacturing floor that isn't to specification. These decisions made everyday can mean the difference between life and death.. Cost/risk analysis. Russian Roulette. The best companies make the best judgement about recalling product when bad product gets out the door and into the field. Lesser companies, not so much. That is what you are paying for with a Specialized bicycle. Decentralized manufacturing has nothing to do with product quality. All about the scrutiny and process control of suppliers whether in China or Iceland.


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## WRM4865 (Mar 4, 2015)

11spd quit wasting your time with those that suffer from Specialized derangement syndrome. 

You are not going to change some weekend-warrior T-shirt/Charity ride goobers opinion on anything. 

I've been befuddled by this whole seething hatred of Specialized for years and why exactly it "triggers" so many Cervelo and Trek owners :lol:


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

11spd said:


> Perhaps you could shed some light?


Specialized Roubaix trademark legal threat may backfire as Fuji weighs in | Cyclingnews.com

Fuji gets the gold star here - notice how they didn't tell Specialized to stand aside so they could sue the war veteran owned private shop building wheels? That's the way you win consumers respect and dollars. 

This is a perfect example of a company trying to win a battle and they lost much more than they ever had interest in gaining. The collateral damage from their heavy handed approach was huge and lives today as you can see from many of the comments here. I'm sure this example will end up in a PR text book sometime in the future if it isn't already, great case study. 

Your comments making light of the company's reputation and denigrating those who see this differently than you doesn't do anything to repair the harm they caused themselves. it more likely galvanizes opinions already in place. But do keep going on about it.....see how many people you can convince or.....


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

11spd said:


> Specia...er Merida! makes the best bicycles in the world period.


There fixed it for you...


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

11spd said:


> ...
> 
> Difference between Specialized and other bike companies? Specialized recalls discrepant product that gets out into the field. Other companies that make even more inferior product? They don't.



LMGTFY


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

WRM4865 said:


> 11spd quit wasting your time with those that suffer from Specialized derangement syndrome.
> 
> You are not going to change some weekend-warrior T-shirt/Charity ride goobers opinion on anything.
> 
> I've been befuddled by this whole seething hatred of Specialized for years and why exactly it "triggers" so many Cervelo and Trek owners :lol:


You're right of course. I believe the derangement is founded in left wing ideology with deep seated suspicion about big business. Gee...how can a company that started in a garage like a boutique builder who never graduated to middle school...how could such a company garner such success? Has to be grounded in unscrupulous business practices that exploit the competition and not founded in merit of vision and execution of product. Unsuccessful people hating on success because they haven't achieved any in life.

And you have to laugh about the moral judgement. Biblical. He without sin, caste the first stone. You haveta laugh at the moral superiority of those passing judgement when their moral judgement is pure compensation for lack of personal success.

I sometimes make the analogy about excellence, moral depravity and Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods is probably the most morally bankrupt person to ever play on the PGA tour. Also, in his prime, he is the greatest golfer to ever play. Excellence juxtaposed moral depravity.
Gotta love the irony of life and why the same people hate Donald Trump with all his succes even though the previous nice guy ran America into the ditch. The same people deny Darwinism, survival of the fittest and animals out in the wild eat one another to survive. Lance, arguably one of the greatest cyclists of all time in the face of an entire sport guilty of doping including the great current champion Chris Froome whom many believed beyond reproach....Lance wasn't known to be a very nice guy either.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Srode said:


> Specialized Roubaix trademark legal threat may backfire as Fuji weighs in | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Fuji gets the gold star here - notice how they didn't tell Specialized to stand aside so they could sue the war veteran owned private shop building wheels? That's the way you win consumers respect and dollars.
> 
> ...


Its OK. Specialized...a household name in cycling, the General Motors of bicycles, is doing just fine and Fuji continues to takes its ancillary subordinate role in the industry which is deserved by the inferior products they produce by comparison and lack of bench in terms of all the great kit that Specialized manufactures that Fuji doesn't...from industry leading saddles to shoes to helmets. So any poetic justice you believe in place isn't. GM btw has killed people by their benign neglect and cover up of design deficiencies. Pick your moral depravity. Specialized could choose not to recall their Tarmac forks or most recent Allez forks and hurt people. They rather choose to.

So the world is as it is. Judgements made and people have their personal biases.
I just find the whole moral argument laughable is all because I worked in big business my whole life. Most will still take their chances with Apple and GM with all their corruption. The morally pure guy who makes cars in his garage that sells them to the public has sadly lost some lives along the way by not doing his due diligence. But he sure was a nice guy even though business is slow.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but Specialized bikes are made by Merida, which owns 49% of Specialized. Hard to see how Specialized is not "making its own bikes".


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

11spd said:


> So any poetic justice you believe in place isn't.


If you read the thread, you will can read between the lines and see there are a few people here that Specialized actions alienated - me included. I had no bias prior and would have considered their bikes, now there's no way no how. So while they may be doing well financially, that doesn't mean they couldn't have been doing better without that stunt.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

11spd said:


> Thanks for that succinct recollection of what happened. Why would Fuji have the clout to tell Specialized to stand down?...even tho they owned the trademark?


Why would someone you rent a house from have the clout to tell you not to turn it into a hotel? Likely because your lease did not grant that right. 

Using something by permission means you get to use it as permitted, it does not mean you own it. And basic trademark law requires the OWNER of the trademark to defend it. They must protect it from unauthorized use.

You think Fuji put a lot of limitations on the use of their trademark when allowing them to use it for bikes? I do. Do you think Fuji granted Specialized the right to defend Fuji's trademark? I don't. Specialized defense of the trademark was unauthorized... obviously, given Fuji's actions.

I hope your lungs are ok, you do seem to blow a lot of smoke.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

11spd said:


> ...founded in left wing ideology...
> 
> Gotta love the irony of life and why the same people hate Donald Trump with all his succes even though the previous nice guy ran America into the ditch. ...


There's a forum on this site for stuff like this. You want to go there, take it to PO.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> Why would someone you rent a house from have the clout to tell you not to turn it into a hotel? Likely because your lease did not grant that right.
> 
> Using something by permission means you get to use it as permitted, it does not mean you own it. And basic trademark law requires the OWNER of the trademark to defend it. They must protect it from unauthorized use.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is entirely accurate. If I license (rent) my intellectual property exclusively to you and go to Bolivia, you are the only person around to defend your business' use of that property. Of course you can defend what you paid for - you're the one with the vested interest.

If it isn't an exclusive right, then the owner is the one with a vested interest.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

Kontact said:


> I don't think this is entirely accurate. If I license (rent) my intellectual property exclusively to you and go to Bolivia, you are the only person around to defend your business' use of that property. Of course you can defend what you paid for - you're the one with the vested interest.
> 
> If it isn't an exclusive right, then the owner is the one with a vested interest.


That is not quite how trademark and copyright law works. Even if granted an exclusive use right, the owner is the one permitted to initiate legal action, not the lessee. Further more, it is a moot point in the context of this thread, as we have already provided proof that Fuji stepped in, and the case was dismissed, which proves that Specialized did not have the right to sue.

Furthermore, for the others in the thread who claim some of us are biased, in my case that is not the truth. I have owned, and would owned a Specialized bike again (I had an Enduro SX Trail years back). I am partial to Giant because I like their bikes, they fit me well, and my friend who owns the LBS I use happens to be a Giant dealer. If he sold Specialized, or Trek, or whatever else, I would be riding those.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> There's a forum on this site for stuff like this. You want to go there, take it to PO.


Simply an analogy based upon how people think. For example, if you believe Specialized is wrong to the point this would preclude you from buying their bikes which are among the best in the world, you likely lean left in your politics. Others by contrast are more pragmatic and go with this great company. Its a mindset.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Srode said:


> If you read the thread, you will can read between the lines and see there are a few people here that Specialized actions alienated - me included. I had no bias prior and would have considered their bikes, now there's no way no how. So while they may be doing well financially, that doesn't mean they couldn't have been doing better without that stunt.


You are in the vast minority. Very few...I ride with hundreds of cyclists...discriminate against a bike company due to their litigation practices. Most don't choose an automobile or washer and dryer based upon a companies propensity to litigate versus not.
Instead they choose the best product and why Specialized is so successful.


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## tony_mm (Apr 5, 2016)

The main advantage of Specialized over their competitors is definitely their Marketing to me.

Just like Rapha. Good or very good products but excellent marketing.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

11spd said:


> You are in the vast minority. Very few...I ride with hundreds of cyclists...discriminate against a bike company due to their litigation practices. Most don't choose an automobile or washer and dryer based upon a companies propensity to litigate versus not.
> Instead they choose the best product and why Specialized is so successful.


yes, he is in the minority. Probably close to the same minority that is informed about the lawsuit in question (what a coincidence) but yes, minority.

Those getting wound up and and promoting a company on-line in the context of a discussion around suing a war veteran in Canada over the use of the name of a town in France would also be a minority.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

11spd said:


> Simply an analogy based upon how people think.


How the vast majority of people on RBR think: "I don't want politics mixed with my bike talk."

Think of a non-political analogy, or take it to PO.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

tony_mm said:


> The main advantage of Specialized over their competitors is definitely their Marketing to me.
> 
> Just like Rapha. Good or very good products but excellent marketing.


Yes, great marketing for the less critically minded aka average road bike customer.
Very little separate top tier bike brands.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Jay Strongbow said:


> yes, he is in the minority. Probably close to the same minority that is informed about the lawsuit in question (what a coincidence) but yes, minority.
> 
> Those getting wound up and and promoting a company on-line in the context of a discussion around suing a war veteran in Canada over the use of the name of a town in France would also be a minority.


We agree including the nuance about suing a Canadian war veteran. Do you think Specialized knew?...lol.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> How the vast majority of people on RBR think: "I don't want politics mixed with my bike talk."
> 
> Think of a non-political analogy, or take it to PO.


You may want to take a poll before making that assumption but you maybe right.
On the politics front, safe to assume yours are on the left and why you hate on a successful company like Specialized. You should google what car you drive relative to pending lawsuits. You may end up changing your car weekly as the litigious winds change direction. Or maybe sell your Apple products for slowing previous gen IPhones which is about as despicable a decision a large corporation makes. They changed their policy only because of the millions of dollars of pending lawsuits because of this unethical practice. Apple as in apple pie and Americana.

I did provide the Tiger Woods and Lance analogy...which is pretty apolitical. Bad guys who were very good at their craft.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

11spd said:


> You may want to take a poll before making that assumption but you maybe right.
> On the politics front, safe to assume yours are on the left and why you hate on a successful company like Specialized.


I've been around long enough to know what opinions have been expressed on the topic. And to see people banned for bringing up politics in non-po threads over and over again.

I don't hate Specialized. I considered them for my mtb purchase last year. I have been talking about the issue, but that's it. Well, after actually addressing the OP, before things went off the rails.

Try to comprehend what you read, and not assume stuff. Try hard, you seem to have issues with that.

Have a nice day.


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## WRM4865 (Mar 4, 2015)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> How the vast majority of people on RBR think: "I don't want politics mixed with my bike talk."


Agreed.

11spd I see where your going however you can make your point better with out attacking anyone's political view, as it diminishes your objective.

I find it funny how some guy asking about two entry level mountain bikes on a road bike forum degenerated into another Specialized bashing thread now with politics mixed in for good measure. 

Bottom line your are not going to change anyone's opinion on either.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

WRM4865 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 11spd I see where your going however you can make your point better with out attacking anyone's political view, as it diminishes your objective.
> 
> ...


First off, I am not attacking anybody. I believe it was you or another poster who is bemused by such a tough stand on Specialized a minority mostly on bike forums and harder to find in the public share. Was merely explaining that people view through different lenses which tends to correlate with views on big business. Truthfully, politics is being used as a scapegoat to denigrate my view that in a world where there is little high ground, it is difficult to find any person or corporation without a mis-step. Some willful and some by accident.

We do agree on your last sentence.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

WRM4865 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 11spd I see where your going however you can make your point better with out attacking anyone's political view, as it diminishes your objective.
> 
> ...


Oh, Oh

It's now it's turning to a conversation of religion.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

11spd said:


> First off, I am not attacking anybody. I believe it was you or another poster who is bemused by such a tough stand on Specialized a minority mostly on bike forums and harder to find in the public share. Was merely explaining that people view through different lenses which tends to correlate with views on big business. Truthfully, politics is being used as a scapegoat to denigrate my view that in a world where there is little high ground, it is difficult to find any person or corporation without a mis-step. Some willful and some by accident.
> 
> We do agree on your last sentence.


oh please. I don't like to speak for anyone else but I'm confident the size of the company has no impact one one's feelings towards suing a war veteran in Canada over the use of a town in France name.
Personally I think it's pretty lame that Specialized did it and would feel the same about it if it was a one man shop run by a penniless communist who ate a of sprouts doing it.

People feel what the feel about a particular lawsuit. Period. You've interpreted that as an attack on your career in big business and big business in general. 

Try arguing what people say. Not what you want to argue thus imagine they said.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Jay Strongbow said:


> oh please. I don't like to speak for anyone else but I'm confident the size of the company has no impact one one's feelings towards suing a war veteran in Canada over the use of a town in France name.
> Personally I think it's pretty lame that Specialized did it and would feel the same about it if it was a one man shop run by a penniless communist who ate a of sprouts doing it.
> 
> People feel what the feel about a particular lawsuit. Period. You've interpreted that as an attack on your career in big business and big business in general.
> ...


This has turned into a food fight therefore I will let you and others denigrate one another. But your second to last comment about my role in big business really underscores your fantasy world of morality or lack thereof. You obviously know nothing of big business. The community's lives are lost by profit seeking decisions made each day. Whether your Canadian war hero uncle...please share his pedigree with us...gets to name his store Roubaix or not, is fairy dust in the grand scheme. Love your sympathy for him tho....touching and very sweet....lol.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

11spd said:


> This has turned into a food fight therefore I will let you and others denigrate one another. *But your second to last comment* about my role in big business really underscores your fantasy world of morality or lack thereof. You obviously know nothing of big business. The community's lives are lost by profit seeking decisions made each day. Whether your Canadian war hero uncle...please share his pedigree with us...gets to name his store Roubaix or not, is fairy dust in the grand scheme. Love your sympathy for him tho....touching and very sweet....lol.



I think you need to focus on my last one. People have a problem with a particular lawsuit. Period. The rest of that you are responding to and the political beliefs and motivations of those you are responding to are a product of your imagination.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think you need to focus on my last one. People have a problem with a particular lawsuit. Period. The rest of that you are responding to and the political beliefs and motivations of those you are responding to are a product of your imagination.


Not people Jay. You and a handful on the fringe...lol. You have a problem with the lawsuit which is a figment of your imagination.
Quit obfuscating. This is your fantasy and a handful of others that don't see the bigger picture. Vast majority don't care about this lawsuit. All your conflations are a product of _your_ imagination. Bad big S...when the truth is the opposite.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

I have a distaste for the management of Specialized, and it's beyond the one lawsuit mentioned. They have a history of pursuing lawsuits against small bike companies, spending a lot of cash doing it. 
They also may not be the "innovators" some people think. About that endurance bike -

"On Wednesday, the defense had called Sean Sullivan, former executive vice president and second in command to Sinyard at Specialized. According to Choi, he said that Sinyard had told him that that loyalty is a one-way street. Sullivan also testified that the Specialized Roubaix bike design came from a Seven Cycles custom bike that a Specialized employee had bought because the company’s product line did not include a relaxed-geometry comfort bike with a tall head tube."
Read more at An expensive dollar: Volagi owes Specialized $1 | VeloNews.com


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

And then there is this
https://www.bikemag.com/news/stans-notubes-wins-patent-battle-against-specialized/

"A federal court has upheld a previous ruling by the Patent Trial and Appeal Board, declaring Stan's NoTubes' U.S. Patent Number 7,334,846 to be valid...
The decision represents a win for Stan’s in a drawn-out court battle with Specialized. The fight goes back to 2008, when Stan’s sued Specialized, alleging that the California brand’s 2008 Control Rims had infringed on U.S. Patent Number 7,334,846...

So they have a little history of copying other designs and then calling them their own.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Z'mer said:


> I have a distaste for the management of Specialized, and it's beyond the one lawsuit mentioned. They have a history of pursuing lawsuits against small bike companies, spending a lot of cash doing it.
> They also may not be the "innovators" some people think. About that endurance bike -
> 
> "On Wednesday, the defense had called Sean Sullivan, former executive vice president and second in command to Sinyard at Specialized. According to Choi, he said that Sinyard had told him that that loyalty is a one-way street. Sullivan also testified that the Specialized Roubaix bike design came from a Seven Cycles custom bike that a Specialized employee had bought because the company’s product line did not include a relaxed-geometry comfort bike with a tall head tube."
> Read more at An expensive dollar: Volagi owes Specialized $1 | VeloNews.com


Reality of invention Z...its extremely rare. What you post is likely true. Spesh brought this geometry in the form of a genre to the masses and got the credit. Happens everyday in business.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

This site sums up a bunch legal actions 
Now You Know - Drunkcyclist.com

There is this one in comments
"Specialized Bicycle Components, Inc., more commonly known simply as Specialized, is a major brand of bicycles and related products. It was founded in 1974 by Mike Sinyard, who started importing cheap bicycle parts from overseas and selling them at a huge markup. Later they blatantly stole some designs from Joe Breeze, and started making the Stumpjumper, which they claimed was “the world’s first mountain bike”.Today they continue to make cheap crap offshore and pass it off as an American brand, even though they have never manufactured anything in the USA. They aggressively protect their trade marks with a building full of lawyers in Morgan Hill, California."


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

Z'mer said:


> And then there is this
> https://www.bikemag.com/news/stans-notubes-wins-patent-battle-against-specialized/
> 
> "A federal court has upheld a previous ruling by the Patent Trial and Appeal Board, declaring Stan's NoTubes' U.S. Patent Number 7,334,846 to be valid...
> ...


A common practice. Steal what you can and sell it if believed its a better mousetrap.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

11spd said:


> A common practice. Steal what you can and sell it if believed its a better mousetrap.


Not all companies operate that way. If you think they do, maybe you worked too long for the wrong one.


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## tony_mm (Apr 5, 2016)

Z'mer said:


> This site sums up a bunch legal actions
> Now You Know - Drunkcyclist.com
> 
> There is this one in comments
> "Specialized Bicycle Components, Inc., more commonly known simply as Specialized, is a major brand of bicycles and related products. It was founded in 1974 by Mike Sinyard, who started importing cheap bicycle parts from overseas and selling them at a huge markup. Later they blatantly stole some designs from Joe Breeze, and started making the Stumpjumper, which they claimed was “the world’s first mountain bike”.Today they continue to make cheap crap offshore and pass it off as an American brand, even though they have never manufactured anything in the USA. They aggressively protect their trade marks with a building full of lawyers in Morgan Hill, California."


Thanks for your posts and information!

I actually heard of the «Roubaix» dispute but I was not fully aware about all this...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

The Stans one is a classic.

Really happy he was able to stick it to the thieves at Specialized for stealing his patented designs and selling them as their own.

Like I said before, the big S is morally bankrupt, always has been, it's the model of their business.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Srode said:


> Specialized Roubaix trademark legal threat may backfire as Fuji weighs in | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> Fuji gets the gold star here - notice how they didn't tell Specialized to stand aside so they could sue the war veteran owned private shop building wheels? That's the way you win consumers respect and dollars.
> 
> ...


I've been wondering about Specialized using the Roubaix name since they introduced their Roubaix line. Fuji was already using the Roubaix name as one of their models. I assume that Apple......excuse me.. Specialized didn't care.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Locked.


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