# Latex tubes



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

At a latex tube comparison at http://biketechreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2654
it was claimed
" _... latex tubes after that many miles [several hundred] can be really scary – full of stretch deformities from the latex trying to flow under the tire beads and into other small crevices ..._ "​However, I removed my first latex tube at about 800 miles to patch it, and the tube looked fine (it was a Michelin A1 Latex). 

I'd never heard of this _stretch deformity_ issue before. Anything to worry about ??


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## jmlapoint (Sep 4, 2008)

I see no reason to use Latex Tubes.
They are fragile to install and loose air quickly overnight.
A nice medium weight butyl tube works just as well, and is more durable and provides just as good a ride as Latex.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

apparently their main selling point is reducing pinch flats
but when a friend of mine had a blow out on a fast descent with one, I soon decided it wasnt worth it.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Latex tubes are for preventin' babies and STDs.....


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

muscleendurance said:


> apparently their main selling point is reducing pinch flats
> but when a friend of mine had a blow out on a fast descent with one, I soon decided it wasnt worth it.


There main selling point is reduced rolling resistance. Blow-outs are usually cause by poor installation.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Well, no direct answer to my original question ;-)
Replies were more along the lines of "_why use latex tubes at all?_ "

Two reasons:

1) Subjective
Putative ride is "better", especially when used with a supple high TPI tire ... I'm riding Vittoria Open Corsa CX II (320 TPI).

2) Objective
http://www.biketechreview.com/tires/AFM_tire_crr.htm

Latex tubes are measured to have 2-3 watts per tire, 4-6 watts total, less rolling resistance than butyl @ 50 kph.

If your FTP = c.250 W, that's about a 2% effect. 

Assuming 'typical" parameters, on a 30 minute TT on 0% grade, at 40 kph, that's about *140 meter advantage* (!) -- *huge*. I believe the correct relation is that tire Crr is proportional to speed.
http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

In response to comments,
1) yes, latex does seem to "flat" & decompress somewhat more rapidly than butyl -- but on my one rear flat, not a problem (yet).
2) latex does lose more air overnight -- but I have a compressor and would air up before every ride, anyway.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I haven't had a problem with tube deformities at all, but I've been using the thick Vreds which should be less prone to this.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

The Michelin latex tubes I've been using, are apparently thicker than some 'super duper ultra light' tubes, and maybe that's why I observe no "deformities".

Michelin doesn't spec a thickness
http://www.michelinbicycletire.com/michelinbicycle/index.cfm?event=Aircomplatex.view
but I have weighed the Michelin Air-Comp Latex at 75 g -- about same as the Air-Comp Ultra-light butyl.

Some of those other "deformity" prone latex tubes were in the 50g range.

BTW, seems Michelin has re-branded all "A1" series tubes as simply "Air Comp".


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## canamdad (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't see any reason for most people to use them. That said, I've been using the same couple of pairs now for over 10 years and see no reason to give them up! So maybe that's reason enough- and they give the tyre a sweet feel at speed! And, after all, unless you go tubeless, you have to have something in there to hold the air.


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## tdi-rick (Oct 2, 2007)

I use them as they stopped me having pinch flats.
At the time I was riding bad secondary roads, farm tracks and dirt roads with gibbers everywhere, cattle grids, etc. 
Couldn't dodge/bunny hop all the rocks.

I've always used Michelin, have never had a problem and I'll continue to use them.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

I had a Michelin 22/23 that I used for testing dozens of tires with no flatting problem. The tube looked terrible when I'd change a tire - it had two extrusion lines running around the inside circumference of the tube where it had tried to sneak into the small crevice between the tire bead and rim plus circular thinning ghosts of the rim tape covered spoke holes. The thing finally when I got busy and didn't check whether the tube was trapped between the bead and rim. By that time however it was stretched to the point to where it felt like I was trying to stuff a 700 tube into a 650 tire.

I have what I think is a toxic combination of a Mavic Comete disc wheel and a Bontrager RXL Pro 23 tire. I lost a couple of tubes including one of the thick Vred ones - what seems to have happened is that the butyl valve stem boot hangs up between the tire beads - the latex tube then extrudes into that space and eventually fails. I think I've solved the problem by building up that are of the rim by layering rim tape and also enlarging the valve stem hole in the rim so that it doesn't sit up.

I use latex tubes for racing but they do need a bit more care and inspection.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Patching?*

FWIW it's not usually worth it to patch latex tubes. A standard patch kit won't work...



tom_h said:


> However, I removed my first latex tube at about 800 miles to patch it, and
> the tube looked fine (it was a Michelin A1 Latex).


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

Argentius said:


> FWIW it's not usually worth it to patch latex tubes. A standard patch kit won't work...


I've not had any problems using Rema patches, glueless patches, or my preferred method of cutting pieces from old latex tubes and gluing them on using rubber cement. Make sure the surfaces are cleaned - I used alcohol as well to degrease. In fact the tube that lasted so long in the above thread had all the above methods used on it after my cat decided that the tube made a most excellent chew toy one morning. The glueless patches would dry out and basically fall off after a few months however. What type of problems did you have ??


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Argentius said:


> FWIW it's not usually worth it to patch latex tubes. A standard patch kit won't work...


Seemed to work fine on my Michelin latex tubes ... The patched tube has another 600 miles on it.
I usually don't bother to patch butyl tubes, but at $10-11 per latex tube, I got stingy.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

AM999 said:


> I had a Michelin 22/23 that I used for testing dozens of tires with no flatting problem. ...


By chance, are you the same *A*l *M*orrison as at Bike tech review?
If so, you've provided a great service to the cycle community, with all the detailed tire testing :thumbsup:


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

I couldn't get a good seal, the air would always leak out as the tube stretched. I didn't do the alcohol cleaning method, though.



AM999 said:


> I've not had any problems using Rema patches, glueless patches, or my preferred method of cutting pieces from old latex tubes and gluing them on using rubber cement... * What type of problems did you have ??[/*QUOTE]


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

Seems to me now that I think about it that happened to me early on as well. Some of the latex tubes have some powder (talc ??) on them and so it helps to clean the surface. Also let the glue dry a bit before putting on the patch. If you have an old latex tube that's not repairable pieces of that tube make excellent patchs plus you can oversize them to get over coverage. Latex patches don't degrade rolling resistance as well.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

Guilty - thanks for the kind words. Ron has made a lot of positive contributions over there as well including a useful spreadsheet for estimating CdA and such.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Latex tests*



rruff said:


> There main selling point is reduced rolling resistance. Blow-outs are usually cause by poor installation.


Bicycle Quarterly tested the Michelin latex tubes, and they were slower than a light weight (not ultralight) butyl tube. It's possible that super thin latex tubes are faster, but probably not much. BQ's tests were "real world" on an actual pavement surface rather than roller or drum tests, which seem to have some discrepancies when translating to real world performance.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Kerry Irons said:


> Bicycle Quarterly tested the Michelin latex tubes, and they were slower than a light weight (not ultralight) butyl tube. It's possible that super thin latex tubes are faster, but probably not much. BQ's tests were "real world" on an actual pavement surface rather than roller or drum tests, which seem to have some discrepancies when translating to real world performance.


is that report available online? it didn't seem to be, when I searched.
Potentially so many uncontrolled variables, and we're only tallking about small c.2% differences ...


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

Kerry Irons said:


> Bicycle Quarterly tested the Michelin latex tubes, and they were slower than a light weight (not ultralight) butyl tube. It's possible that super thin latex tubes are faster, but probably not much. BQ's tests were "real world" on an actual pavement surface rather than roller or drum tests, which seem to have some discrepancies when translating to real world performance.


The error bands (which BQ cleverly did not publish but which have been estimated using analytical cycling and their test parameters) on the BQ test results are greater than the differences in their data points. There is no transparency on what model Michelin latex tube they used. The data they used to "show" that roller tests don't translate to the real world neglected to account for aero dynamic drag losses which when estimated using analytic cycling and their data again (BTW the drag at 15 mph is ~ 2/3 of the total losses) and accounted for in the analysis shows that roller data do indeed track real world performance.

Come on Kerry, we've been through this all before. If you dig into the methodology and conclusions many discrepancies appear.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

tom_h said:


> is that report available online? it didn't seem to be, when I searched.
> Potentially so many uncontrolled variables, and we're only tallking about small c.2% differences ...


It's not available on line - at least a few years ago it wasn't. I purchased a copy a few years ago from BQ. I commend the work and effort behind it but I and many others found fault with the analysis and conclusions. There are old discussions of this on this forum IIRC. You might be able to find other forums as well via Google. The article is titled "The Performance of Tires" and was published in Vol 5 Number 1.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Argentius said:


> I couldn't get a good seal, the air would always leak out as the tube stretched. I didn't do the alcohol cleaning method, though. ...


_Possibly_ that's a key factor ... I did clean my latex tube w/ alky at home, and the standard butyl patch is holding up. 

I used a small, pre-packaged alky pad, of the type found at drugstores, that one would use to sterilize skin before sticking in a hypodermic needle.

If you expect to patch latex tubes on the road, maybe carrying 1-2 of those small alky pads is not a bad idea ...


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## QQUIKM3 (Apr 20, 2008)

*I made the switch a number of years ago. .*

After riding a friends bike with Michelin Latex tubes with Veloflex Pave tires. To make a story short I sold my pain in the ass tubular tires/rims and went clincher. Never to look back.


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## MerlinAma (Oct 11, 2005)

AM999 said:


> I've not had any problems using Rema patches,..........


After being told for years that they couldn't be patched, Uncle Al from roadbikerider.com said Rema patches worked. So far I've patched 2-3 tubes and they have all held.

I'll continue to use the Michelin latex tubes.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

tom_h said:


> Seemed to work fine on my Michelin latex tubes ... The patched tube has another 600 miles on it.
> I usually don't bother to patch butyl tubes, but at $10-11 per latex tube, I got stingy.



That makes sense. I may have to try it next I flat a latex -- though I'd rather use a latex "segment" patch as described above, the whole point is the rolling resistance...


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## gandhi (Feb 17, 2006)

Are there latex tubes for wider tires, such as the Ultremo R1 28 mm or for cx tires?

I'm running with The Ultremo R1 28 mm on my "do it all" disc specific cx and would like to find a latex tube to match that tire. Yes, latex is more elastic but it would perhaps expand too much and be much more sensitive to flats if I were to use e.g. the Michelin 22/23 latex tubes. 

/K


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

gandhi said:


> Are there latex tubes for wider tires, such as the Ultremo R1 28 mm or for cx tires?
> 
> I'm running with The Ultremo R1 28 mm on my "do it all" disc specific cx and would like to find a latex tube to match that tire. Yes, latex is more elastic but it would perhaps expand too much and be much more sensitive to flats if I were to use e.g. the Michelin 22/23 latex tubes.
> 
> /K


Vredestein latex tubes are rated 18/25. Many people have successfully used the Michelin 18/20 latex tubes in size 23 tires so I'd think that the size 23 tubes would work well in the size 28 Ultremos - do you happen to know the actual width of the tire. An alternative to latex is the Panaracer Greenlite Polyurethane tube which is rated 20/26 and rolls almost as well as latex. They hold air pressure much better than latex. I've personally had good luck with them for ~ 500 miles of racing but have read about infant mortality failures of the greenlite tubes at the valve stem to tube juncture.


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## gandhi (Feb 17, 2006)

AM999 said:


> Vredestein latex tubes are rated 18/25. Many people have successfully used the Michelin 18/20 latex tubes in size 23 tires so I'd think that the size 23 tubes would work well in the size 28 Ultremos - do you happen to know the actual width of the tire. An alternative to latex is the Panaracer Greenlite Polyurethane tube which is rated 20/26 and rolls almost as well as latex. They hold air pressure much better than latex. I've personally had good luck with them for ~ 500 miles of racing but have read about infant mortality failures of the greenlite tubes at the valve stem to tube juncture.


Correction: I'm running the Ultremo R1 28mm tires soon. I have ordered them, but have not received them yet. I'll measure them when I get them.

Thanks for the tip on Panaracer! I also just saw on the Vittoria web site that they have an extansive range of latex inner tubes. http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8188&Itemid=197 

Just gonna have to find a store that sells them.

/K


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

gandhi said:


> Correction: I'm running the Ultremo R1 28mm tires soon. I have ordered them, but have not received them yet. I'll measure them when I get them.
> 
> Thanks for the tip on Panaracer! I also just saw on the Vittoria web site that they have an extansive range of latex inner tubes. http://www.vittoria.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8188&Itemid=197
> 
> ...


A few years ago Vittoria had some problems with QC on their latex tubes which were purple IIRC. The newer ones are red in color so hopefully they have solved those problems ?? I Googled and found several sources for the 25/28 size so they are available. They have removable valve cores which is a nice feature - much easier to install sealant.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

I would give a nut to find a source for Vredestein latex tubes. I ran Michelins with Veloflex Pave tires and loved the feel. 

For those who are saying they lose air overnight...do you not air your tires prior to each ride? I can assure you that your butyl tubes are losing air as well. Why would you go on the road with no idea what your air pressure is?


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

jmlapoint said:


> I see no reason to use Latex Tubes.
> They are fragile to install and loose air quickly overnight.
> A nice medium weight butyl tube works just as well, and is more durable and provides just as good a ride as Latex.


 Latexs tubes are far more comfortable -- almost like a tubular (most good tubulars have latex tubes) -- and they are far less prone to pinch flats, assuming you reinflate to proper pressure before rides, which you presumably do with butyl tubes too.

They are harder to install as they can easily tear. You have to be careful, and cannot resort to prying the tire bead on with a tire iron.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

spookyload said:


> I would give a nut to find a source for Vredestein latex tubes. I ran Michelins with Veloflex Pave tires and loved the feel.
> 
> For those who are saying they lose air overnight...do you not air your tires prior to each ride? I can assure you that your butyl tubes are losing air as well. Why would you go on the road with no idea what your air pressure is?


Vreds are hard/impossible to find lately. You might want to try the Bontrager latex tubes - removeable valve core and 50 mm stem. A friend has been using them for everyday riding and says that they don't deform quite as much as Michelin or Vred.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Rear wheel noises*



spookyload said:


> I would give a nut to find a source for Vredestein latex tubes. I ran Michelins with Veloflex Pave tires and loved the feel.
> 
> For those who are saying they lose air overnight...do you not air your tires prior to each ride? I can assure you that your butyl tubes are losing air as well. Why would you go on the road with no idea what your air pressure is?


I loose about 2 psi a day. Should I be pumping that back up every day? Do you have a gauge that is that accurate?


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

Kerry Irons said:


> I loose about 2 psi a day. Should I be pumping that back up every day? Do you have a gauge that is that accurate?


If you know that you are losing 2psi a day your gauge is apparently that accurate.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

QuattroCreep said:


> If you know that you are losing 2psi a day your gauge is apparently that accurate.


May not be "accurate", but can apparently "resolves" 2 psi.

The 2.5" bourdon tube guage on my air compressor can resolve 1 psi and seems reproducible to 1 psi ... Guage mfr specs it at +/- 2% "absolute accurate" at midscale = +/- 2 psi. For me, reproducibility is more important than absolute accuracy.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> I loose about 2 psi a day. Should I be pumping that back up every day? Do you have a gauge that is that accurate?


I don't know how much they lose over night. When I install my pump, it will obviously bleed off some pressure too. I pump the tires up prior to each ride so I know the status of my tires. Call it a safety check. I am also old school and look the tires over to make sure there are no huge cuts that could ruin a ride. I guess it falls in line with lubing my chain before it starts making noise.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*ever heard of extrapolation?*



QuattroCreep said:


> If you know that you are losing 2psi a day your gauge is apparently that accurate.


I suspect he has discovered that he loses about 10 psi in 5 days. Any gauge can resolve that.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> Latex tubes are for preventin' babies and STDs.....


They're bad for that too, as they insulate vs. conduct heat. Urethane is better.
Latex is good for: Pillows, mattresses, and medical gloves. Also good for those bands used to help your veins show... nipples, I'm sure there's a few others.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

If you're going 50kph at 250w... you're going downhill. 50kph requires something more like 400w. In which case it's not a 2% savings, more like 1%.


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## estone2 (Sep 25, 2005)

spookyload said:


> I don't know how much they lose over night. When I install my pump, it will obviously bleed off some pressure too. I pump the tires up prior to each ride so I know the status of my tires. Call it a safety check. I am also old school and look the tires over to make sure there are no huge cuts that could ruin a ride. I guess it falls in line with lubing my chain before it starts making noise.


My tubies get pumped up every day when I'm racing. My clinchers get a squeeze. I know what 90psi feels like - I am willing to ride anything between 90 and 105 psi. I end up pumping up about once a week on Kendas with either Bontrager or Bontrager SL tubes.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Butyl...*

I top up the commuter weekly, and do a quick bump-test as I'm clipping in to ride. Seems to be enough.

In 7 days, I'm usually down something like 10psi. No biggie.



spookyload said:


> I don't know how much they lose over night. When I install my pump, it will obviously bleed off some pressure too. I pump the tires up prior to each ride so I know the status of my tires. Call it a safety check. I am also old school and look the tires over to make sure there are no huge cuts that could ruin a ride. I guess it falls in line with lubing my chain before it starts making noise.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*It's interpolation*



JCavilia said:


> I suspect he has discovered that he loses about 10 psi in 5 days. Any gauge can resolve that.


Acutally, it's called interpolation  But yes, that's how those of us of an engineering persuasion come up with numbers like "2 psi per day."


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## canamdad (Jun 19, 2005)

Seems like latex tubes are getting harder to find. This article says that Michelin is ceasing production (http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...n-hutchinson-atom-comp-clincher-tires_118587). Time to stock up I guess!


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

canamdad said:


> Seems like latex tubes are getting harder to find. This article says that Michelin is ceasing production (http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...n-hutchinson-atom-comp-clincher-tires_118587). Time to stock up I guess!


Thanks for posting that. Interesting that Michelin and Vredestein seem to be getting out of the selling latex tubes but Bontrager, Challenge, and Vittoria (getting back in) are starting up. If you do stock up it's a good idea to take the latex tubes out of the boxes and double bag them in sealable freezer type plastic bags. Exposure to air (O2) seems to degrade the latex making them brittle and subject to failure. The Vred latex tubes came in sealed plastic wrappers in the box. The latex tubes used in tubular tires last a long time because they are "sealed" in the tire casing which is usually covered in a latex sealant layer.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

if it's O2 causing the degradation, then maybe evacuating and sealing the bag, or purging/filling the bag with N2 would also help (for those having access to the equipment).

I'm going to stock up on Michelin latex tubes, also. IIRC was reading another thread where Vittoria latex was having quality problems, due to starting up new production line.


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## martinrjensen (Sep 23, 2007)

*OT your sig file....*

I have to say, your signature file is the most ridicules thing I have heard in a long time, perfect for a sig file. I went and did a Google search on the statement and found the (original?) article and read it. Clearly the guy is an idiot and had nothing good to say about much of anything. I would hate to be in his head, with that much negativity floating around in there.


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

tom_h said:


> if it's O2 causing the degradation, then maybe evacuating and sealing the bag, or purging/filling the bag with N2 would also help (for those having access to the equipment).
> 
> I'm going to stock up on Michelin latex tubes, also. IIRC was reading another thread where Vittoria latex was having quality problems, due to starting up new production line.


I just try and get as much air out of the plastic bag as possible, but those vacuum storage bags might be a good idea. I've heard that the latex tubes made by Vittoria a few years ago had quality problems (IIRC they were purple in color). Not sure if their new ones (which are red per the website photos I've seen) are having similar quality issues.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

*Vres Vs Michelin*

I've used michelin latex for years on all my bikes but find they don't hold out at the valve seal........usually 6-8 months lifespan. Switched to vreds with no problems , better Crr and lighter tubes   

concerning the fact that latex loses air........live with it and inflate your tires before riding. Oh... and latex tubes are patched with any old patch kit.......best is still the good ol rema tip top kit


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

FrenchNago said:


> I've used michelin latex for years on all my bikes but find they don't hold out at the valve seal........usually 6-8 months lifespan. Switched to vreds with no problems , better Crr and lighter tubes
> 
> concerning the fact that latex loses air........live with it and inflate your tires before riding. Oh... and latex tubes are patched with any old patch kit.......best is still the good ol rema tip top kit


The valve "boot" might be hanging up slightly on the tire beads resulting in the latex "growing" under and failing ?? I've seen that happen a few times as so use some glueless patchs on that area before anything happens.

A very good method for patching latex tubes is to cut out patchs from any failed ones that you have. I clean the tube and patch thoroughly with alcohol to degrease and "detalc", use some liquid buff, and bond with rubber cement - works great plus you can easily make oversize patchs.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

AM999 said:


> The valve "boot" might be hanging up slightly on the tire beads resulting in the latex "growing" under and failing ?? I've seen that happen a few times as so use some glueless patchs on that area before anything happens.


it's worse.....the body of the vlave just de-seals from the rubber black patch.....and the tube goes to the garbage..........:cryin:


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

FrenchNago said:


> it's worse.....the body of the vlave just de-seals from the rubber black patch.....and the tube goes to the garbage..........:cryin:


Don't throw them away  great patching material


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## johnhellas (May 7, 2006)

Q: Do latex tubes take in water when roads are wet? (with clinchers)


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## AM999 (Jan 22, 2007)

johnhellas said:


> Q: Do latex tubes take in water when roads are wet? (with clinchers)


Not a problem. There would not be much of a market for latex gloves if this were true.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

AM999 said:


> Don't throw them away  great patching material


and an endless supply of rubber bands.............


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