# Cadence comfort vs. ridiculous



## new2rd

Ok, I'm sure this has been covered many times. However, I read a thread not too long ago about someone saying that they train up to 180 RPM to get more comfortable at a more reasonable 120-130 RPM. I can't find the thread, but after reading that I thought "no way". So, I went out on ride and gave it a shot. First off, my comfortable mind wandering cadence is around 90-95 and I can go as high as 105 or so feeling comfortable if I'm concentrating on it. I don't have a cadence sensor, so I have to rely on my bike computer and counting. Ok back to spinning at 180 RPM. It's a bit tough counting at that pace, so I counted every other downstroke and the highest I got was around 130-135, but this speed was crazy. 

Anyone else think that this is impossible?


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## Wookiebiker

new2rd said:


> Anyone else think that this is impossible?


Are you talking about spinning at 180 RPM? It's far from impossible...When riding my single speed in the winter with 46x17 gearing I've participated in many sprints where I've hit just a bit over 36 mph (not over 37 mph though)...which equates to somewhere around 175 RPM.

Just messing around at slower speeds on my geared bike in small gears I can spin faster than 175 RPM.

Do I train for those types of RPM? No...I just happen to be able to spin at a high rate of speed. My normal cadence on a road bike is in the mid 90 RPM range for normal training rides.

There are track guys (who ride the Velodrome) that spin over 200 RPM, some of them into the 210-220 RPM range.


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## Hooben

It's not impossible, but the club that I ride with wouldn't even think about riding like that. I wouldn't worry so much about it, but definitely get yourself a cadence sensor.


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## Guest

When I first started riding earlier this year, I didn't have a cadence meter. I assumed my cadence was probably around 90-95 when up to speed. Turns out i was spinning faster than I though. My _overall average_ cadence was 95 (including starting from dead-stops at near-0 cadence), but when cruising at steady speed I was typically spinning 105-115 when not specifically paying attention to it. I'd tend to shift gears when outside of that range. 

Being comfortable riding at 120-130 doesn't sound ridiculous at all... for me that would be as easy as downshifting one cog from what I normally ride and compensating to maintain the same speed. 

My maximum cadence on training rides is usually under 140 though I've never tried to push that as high a I could. Hitting 180 at least sounds feasible.


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## Ghost234

Spinning at 120-130rpm is pretty crazy for a normal ride. Most riders will sit in the range of 80-100. Spinning at 180+ rpm has its purposes though, mostly for developing pedaling technique, sprinting, etc. but nobody really sits there for more than 10-20 seconds. 

I personally don't see the use in spinning that high of a gear. I would find that I would be geared out if I needed to respond to an attack. Plus if I came to a very steep hill I would have a great deal of difficulty dealing with a much lower cadence.


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## Local Hero

No, I don't think 180rpms is impossible. I've known trackies who can spin 200+rpms in races. 

I've actually put a lot of thought into this. My solution was to simply practice by riding around at a higher cadence. Over several months, I've made a conscious effort to shift into an easier gear. (Alternatively, to gain strength I've pushed a harder gear at times, especially when grinding up hills on my SS MTB.) I've found that I can comfortably spin at 150+rpms for a short period of time and uncomfortably mash at 40rpms while standing on the pedals on hills. Through all this my "sweet spot" has grown. 

I'm planning on using a single speed bike in a flat crit (or a series of them, depending on how it goes). You can read a thread on it if you click this sentence. I settled on 53X16 gearing, which is just shy of 90 gear inches. I've been racing the track for about a year and feel pretty good about my leg speed. 

With ~90 gear inches I can achieve the following speeds:

80rpms ~ 21+mph
90rpms ~ 24mph
100rpms ~ 26.7mph
110rpms ~ 29mph
120rpms ~ 32mph
130rpms ~ 34.5mph
140rpms ~ 37+mph


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## Alex_Simmons/RST

How fast you can pedal is a function of the resistance forces. the higher the forces, the lower the rate at which one can pedal. when going as hard as one can before fatigue sets in (after about 6 seconds) the relationship between pedal speed and pedal force is linear. those that are pedaling at 200+ rpm are typically doing so at very low resistance levels (e.g. unloaded on trainer).

200rpm _when sprinting_ isn't all that common, most sprinters will want to be riding somewhat lower cadences if they can (i.e. choose a better gear) in order to generate maximal power (which is more typically reached at ~130-140rpm). they will finish off a sprint at high leg speed (but lower power) than the critical acceleration phase where the most power is required.


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## Guest

Local Hero said:


> No, I don't think 180rpms is impossible. I've known trackies who can spin 200+rpms in races.
> 
> I've actually put a lot of thought into this. My solution was to simply practice by riding around at a higher cadence. Over several months, I've made a conscious effort to shift into an easier gear. (Alternatively, to gain strength I've pushed a harder gear at times, especially when grinding up hills on my SS MTB.) I've found that I can comfortably spin at 150+rpms for a short period of time and uncomfortably mash at 40rpms while standing on the pedals on hills. Through all this my "sweet spot" has grown.
> 
> I'm planning on using a single speed bike in a flat crit (or a series of them, depending on how it goes). You can read a thread on it if you click this sentence. I settled on 53X16 gearing, which is just shy of 90 gear inches. I've been racing the track for about a year and feel pretty good about my leg speed.
> 
> With ~90 gear inches I can achieve the following speeds:
> 
> 80rpms ~ 21+mph
> 90rpms ~ 24mph
> 100rpms ~ 26.7mph
> 110rpms ~ 29mph
> 120rpms ~ 32mph
> 130rpms ~ 34.5mph
> 140rpms ~ 37+mph


Seems pretty reasonable for a flattish race (I read most of the thread you linked). 

I've recently started commuting on a singlespeed bike; my commuter is often locked outside and gets dusty -- I got fed up with frequent derailleur cleanings my geared bike required. 

For commuting (usually in street-clothes) I settled on a very 'wimpy' gear in contrast to yours -- 38/16. That's 20.5mph @ 110rpm (optimum riding cadence), or "yellow light" speed of 27mph @ 145rpm. The gear is also low enough for me to handle any hills I encounter even when carrying water and a few small bags. On the downhills I just tuck and coast. (I definitely wouldn't want to ride a gear this low fixed...)

The idea with this though was to pick the lowest gearing I could get away with -- so I don't go overboard with speed while commuting, a different goal than choosing a gear based on a reasonable average racing speed.


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## the sarge

crazy..... i obviously need work as i am comfortable spinnig at about 75-85 rpm guess i have something new to work on.


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## new2rd

the sarge said:


> crazy..... i obviously need work as i am comfortable spinnig at about 75-85 rpm guess i have something new to work on.


If you are new at this, expect the increased cadence to gradually increase in time. I was right where you are a little over a year ago and my normal cadence has steadily increased to where now I feel "normal" at 95-100 RPM.


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## new2rd

Ghost234 said:


> Spinning at 120-130rpm is pretty crazy for a normal ride. Most riders will sit in the range of 80-100. Spinning at 180+ rpm has its purposes though, mostly for developing pedaling technique, sprinting, etc. but nobody really sits there for more than 10-20 seconds.
> 
> I personally don't see the use in spinning that high of a gear. I would find that I would be geared out if I needed to respond to an attack. Plus if I came to a very steep hill I would have a great deal of difficulty dealing with a much lower cadence.


I agree that 120-130 is a pretty crazy and wouldn't try to maintain that cadence during a normal ride. I guess if you are on a fixed speed you don't have the choice, but for sprinting I would rather be in a more comfortable range (maybe spinning in the low to mid 90's before ramping it up to the 120's). I'll have to get a cadence sensor since it's impossible to count that fast. 

The question that I brought up to start this thread was more related to not comprehending someone's legs moving that fast (180 RPM's). I think that bringing up the cadence to an uncomfortable ridiculously feeling level can help bring normal cadence up a bit. If I'm very conscience about spinning faster (maintaining 110-115 for minutes at a time), when I back off I feel like I might be going at 60 RPM's when in fact I'm at a very lazy comfortable 90+. 

Being a fairly new rider, I have noticed that most cyclist's I see on the road are using a slower cadence. Even the more experienced group rides seem to have a lot of riders spinning in the low 80's. This could be a comfort thing and maybe this is their way of keeping it mellow and not pushing up the pace.


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## Local Hero

Poke around on the youtubes and you'll find videos of guys with fast legs...

Leg Speed during a roller warmup - YouTube
Cycling Cadence 321rpm - YouTube
Super Fast !! - YouTube


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## trener1

I do some high cadence work this time of the year, and last Thursday I hit 187 and I am a roadie, so as other have mentioned I am sure that there are track riders that can hit 200+.
So to answer your initial, yes by all means it is possible.


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## DIRT BOY

Local Hero said:


> Poke around on the youtubes and you'll find videos of guys with fast legs...
> 
> Leg Speed during a roller warmup - YouTube
> Cycling Cadence 321rpm - YouTube
> Super Fast !! - YouTube


That guy is NOT doing 321rpm. I never tracked my cadence on my FG bike yet. But I know I can spin 160+rpm on it. 

I know its easier on a Spin bike, but I have pedaled over 200 rpms for 25 seconds years ago. Yes, that's with a decent amount of resistance.


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## SevensRacer

It might sound funny, but honestly, just follow your legs. :thumbsup:

I got back into biking about 2 months ago and have been training roughly 3 times a week. A good rpm rate for me seems to be around 80-90 rpm. It's quick enough, but at the same time, does not kill my energy supply.

Some weeks ago, I have noticed that on the typical gears I used on the climbs, I began to spin a little faster than usual. This automatically told me that my legs have gained abit of strength, so I began using higher gears and have been able to keep my usual cadence, but at the same, been able to go much faster.


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## new2rd

Ok, so originally I thought it was crazy to say that someone could pedal at 180 RPM's. I've been playing around with the idea and I now believe that it's possible at least for short bursts. I did some sprints yesterday starting off in the low 20 mph range with a cadence of mid to high 80's. Went all out for 15-20 seconds without shifting and ended up at 36 mph with my legs spinning like mad. It's a lot easier to keep the legs spinning fast when under load compared to spinning like crazy going <20 mph in a easy gear. I don't have a cadence sensor, so I'm not sure on the exact number, but I would guess I was at least 160 RPM's.


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## SevensRacer

I think a good question would be: what type of cyclist do you want to be? There are people good in climbing, descending, time trials, sprints, etc.

For instance, in my case, I want to be good in climbing, descending and time trials, and for this, its not necessary to be churning out ultra-high rpms (or anything more than 120 rpm).

However, if your aim is to be a sprinter, then by all means, concentrate on high-rpms, because it's more than necessary in that specialization.


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## Wookiebiker

SevensRacer said:


> I think a good question would be: what type of cyclist do you want to be? There are people good in climbing, descending, time trials, sprints, etc.
> 
> For instance, in my case, I want to be good in climbing, descending and time trials, and for this, its not necessary to be churning out ultra-high rpms (or anything more than 120 rpm).
> 
> However, if your aim is to be a sprinter, then by all means, concentrate on high-rpms, because it's more than necessary in that specialization.


If you want to be fast on the downhills, you may need to be able to spin faster than 120 RPM. I know on many occasions I've had to.

53x11 = 45.2 mph at 120 rpm .... I've hit over 50 mph on descents in races and near 60 on some downhills. In the mid 50 mph range you would be spinning in the 140-150 rpm range...though you would probably be spinning faster since most people will run 53x12 instead of 53x11.


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## pista86

this is crazy smooth spinning http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbwngNoHm0


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## alexp247365

When your group ride is doing the town sign sprint, don't shift. You might be surprised at a) how fast you can spin the cranks b) how fast you can go by spinning the cranks that fast.



My best sprint in a race last year was a measly 34mph. I've changed my fit somewhat which has allowed me to spin much faster this winter. That same speed was achieved seated with a 149 cadence during a group-ride last week.


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## waldo425

No this isn't ridiculous or impossible at all. Track racers will do such things regularly. We will train for high leg speed during the winter. This way we can run a 90" or 91" ratio and still compete.


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## SevensRacer

Wookiebiker said:


> If you want to be fast on the downhills, you may need to be able to spin faster than 120 RPM. I know on many occasions I've had to.
> 
> 53x11 = 45.2 mph at 120 rpm .... I've hit over 50 mph on descents in races and near 60 on some downhills. In the mid 50 mph range you would be spinning in the 140-150 rpm range...though you would probably be spinning faster since most people will run 53x12 instead of 53x11.


You got balls - 60 mph is quite fast!

In regards to downhills, you're definitely right. I once did a curvy, but fast downhill some miles away from my home. I reached up to 40 mph using the 52x14 top gears. I am pretty sure I was spinning a bit over 120 rpm on that run.

At the moment, I do not need gears higher than 52x14, but when I am ready for some entry-level, road races, I'll get a new bike with a 53/39 crankset and a 11-25 cassette (Currently using my father's 1970's road bike - has a 52/40 crankset and a 5-speed, 14-28 cassette).


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## Local Hero

Regarding downhills: Who pedals when traveling faster than 45mph, pros? 

Above that it's better to stay tucked imo. I seem to remember discussing this in another thread...I think 53X11 is useless.


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## Wookiebiker

Local Hero said:


> Regarding downhills: Who pedals when traveling faster than 45mph, pros?
> 
> Above that it's better to stay tucked imo. I seem to remember discussing this in another thread...I think 53X11 is useless.


I do...If not, you will get dropped many times...and chasing back on sucks! The only time you can tuck on a downhill at 45mph is when you are in the pack...if you are in front or behind, you have to pedal to go faster.

I use a 53x11 on a regular basis on training rides going downhill, as well as during races.


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## SevensRacer

Wookiesbiker's experience reminds me of this descending clip from the Tour de France of 2011: Tour de France Col du Galibier Descent - YouTube

You will see the riders tucking and coasting during the descent, but you will also see them pedaling quite rapidly as well.

Also, I can get a feel of the thrill (and perhaps terror) of going down a descent at 60 mph through this TDF clip (they were going 62 mph on this ride): Tour de France Stage 8 Descent Cormet de roselend - YouTube


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## new2rd

That is some crazy speed! You can definitely see how comfortable these riders are at high speeds. It's just another day on a bike for them. I would be using my body as a sail to keep me in the 40's especially on the twisty descents. I'm guessing all of those riders were probably running a 53x11 and some looked to be in the 100-120 RPM range when needing to pedal a bit.


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