# Hypothetical situ re C50 EP EPS...



## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

So here's what I was musing about recently, and figured I'd post since many Colnago owners seem to be a bit more knowledgeable about specific frames than the general riding population. I had the chance to get an '08 EP NOS in the fall of 2010 and hadn't had a chance to actually ride it until this summer (due to cervical surgery last year). I hoped that the ride quality would approach that of my '05 Look 585...boy was I surprised! I admit that the 585 is a fab ride overall for me, but the EP ride quality was noticeably better (primarily in terms of soaking up road vibrations on chip seal and rougher surfaces). Incredibly comfortable and smooth as silk. 
I'm impressed enough to explore another possibility sometime in the future ($$$ permitting)...My question is this: since I'm a heavier recreational rider (~185 lb) and a bit on the older side, how would other owners rate the ride quality of the C50 and the EPS compared to the EP? Does it make sense to even consider getting a C50 NOS (if available) or would Colnago folks say that the EP is as good as it gets for a heavier rider given the reinforced tubes and the stiffer BB area? If the only difference between the EP and the EPS is the headset issue, is that just a duplication of what I already ride?
I am not bringing the C59 into the discussion here because I am led to believe that its ride might be a little (and I stress "little") less comfort-driven than the C50 (and expense would probably preclude that option as well). My goal would be to get a slight variation on the ride of the EP, perhaps leaning towards an even more "smoother" feel (if that's actually possible, and it may not be). I'm also not bringing the EPQ into the discussion because I'd rather not deal with internal cable routing and the $$$ issue.
Thanks for any opinions and thoughts...much appreciated.


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

Just IMO.

The EP was an effort at a stiffer frame than the C50 for bigger and stronger riders. At 185lbs you fall into that category. Against an EPS you might not be able to tell the difference.

Whether you would like/prefer a C50 will be influenced by your frame size and the model year. If it's larger than 57cm standard or so you might find the C50 somewhat flexy.

I'd consider a C50 sloping. Kind of like half way betweena standard C50 and a C59 IMO. The C75 fork will be stiffer than yours and the compact frame will keep it stiff enough for a heavier rider, but the geometry and feel are still very "C50". I own a C50 standard but prefer the sloping. It seems to give a better climb and sprint position as well.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Good info there...*

thanks for the tips ic...so here's the info I left out before: my EP size is a 57 traditional and seems to be perfect for me. The fork is the carbon 75, not the Star, so that was also an "upgrade" for beefier riders. From all I could determine, I would lean towards 54 sloping as a better match for me than the 52s, assuming I went with a sloping TT. So I'm kind of in the "larger" rider category, though I'm only 5'10". So you're saying the EPS would clearly be a lateral move or a duplication of the EP I already have...and the C50 in a 54s frame might still be a bit "soft" for a heavier rider, thus maybe not as good an option as the current EP in the 57 trad TT.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

I like my "softer" 56cm C50 in comparison with the 52s EP I had and the 54 EP I still have.

It is soft in the sense it soaks road harshness better, but it is not soft that hinders you, it is the good kind.

None of the EPs were harsh

The 55cm C40 I had was indeed softer. I sold them with regret, but the buyer piled a considerable number of bills in front of me


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## bottecchia_eja (Jul 18, 2010)

nealrab said:


> So here's what I was musing about recently, and figured I'd post since many Colnago owners seem to be a bit more knowledgeable about specific frames than the general riding population. I had the chance to get an '08 EP NOS in the fall of 2010 and hadn't had a chance to actually ride it until this summer (due to cervical surgery last year). I hoped that the ride quality would approach that of my '05 Look 585...boy was I surprised! I admit that the 585 is a fab ride overall for me, but the EP ride quality was noticeably better (primarily in terms of soaking up road vibrations on chip seal and rougher surfaces). Incredibly comfortable and smooth as silk.
> I'm impressed enough to explore another possibility sometime in the future ($$$ permitting)...My question is this: since I'm a heavier recreational rider (~185 lb) and a bit on the older side, how would other owners rate the ride quality of the C50 and the EPS compared to the EP? Does it make sense to even consider getting a C50 NOS (if available) or would Colnago folks say that the EP is as good as it gets for a heavier rider given the reinforced tubes and the stiffer BB area? If the only difference between the EP and the EPS is the headset issue, is that just a duplication of what I already ride?
> I am not bringing the C59 into the discussion here because I am led to believe that its ride might be a little (and I stress "little") less comfort-driven than the C50 (and expense would probably preclude that option as well). My goal would be to get a slight variation on the ride of the EP, perhaps leaning towards an even more "smoother" feel (if that's actually possible, and it may not be). I'm also not bringing the EPQ into the discussion because I'd rather not deal with internal cable routing and the $$$ issue.
> Thanks for any opinions and thoughts...much appreciated.


Neal, I own a C59. The ride is FANTASTIC. I am an older, somewhat overweight rider. The C59 is fast AND comfy. Check it out!


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Good feedback for me...*

Thx Salsa and B eja...Salsa--I would absolutely agree that the EP ride could NEVER be characterized as harsh in any way. It's probably the smoothest ride I've ever been on, especially on the rougher quality of road I find up here in Montana. Bott--I was always getting input that the C59 tended to be a somewhat less comfy or less "soft" ride when strictly compared with the C50 ride quality. Perhaps the C59 ride is closer to the EP ride than to the C50 ride. If true, then the C59 would be an interesting option, though considerably more $$ than an '07/'08 C50. Don't think I can find a 54s in the C50 at this point and I believe I'd need the longer HT (~170) when comparing to the 52s (~150)...I'd normally shoot for a 56cm TT as my standard for traditional frames, and the 52s is only 55 while the 54s is 56.3 (which I think would be fine, just not easily found at this point since 54s is scarce).
I could still opt for the 57 trad with the C50 and put the 54s idea on the back burner due to scarcity, if public opinion would be that a heavier rider could still do a C50 in a trad, larger frame like the 57, and still avoid a "less responsive" or "too soft" a ride feel. I don't think the C50 had a rider weight restriction (even up to 190 lb) like maybe the Extreme C did...but I would think the weight could impact the ride quality overall when comparing to the slightly sturdier EP.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

RA Cycles has a C50 in the Jet Paint on 57 for $2600


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Yeah Salsa,*

...that's what got me thinking about the whole thing. Still don't think I can justify the plan at that price since it would send me up in $4k range and I'd need to keep it ~3k at most. Probably not practical, but I can still keep it in the "possible" range for future consideration. Right now, I'm still really loving the EP ride. Don't want to just make a lateral move for the sake of making a move...I'd still have to check out price for Chorus pkg. I already have other componentry in house.


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

nealrab said:


> From all I could determine, I would lean towards 54 sloping as a better match for me than the 52s, assuming I went with a sloping TT. So I'm kind of in the "larger" rider category, though I'm only 5'10". So you're saying the EPS would clearly be a lateral move or a duplication of the EP I already have...and the C50 in a 54s frame might still be a bit "soft" for a heavier rider, thus maybe not as good an option as the current EP in the 57 trad TT.


54 sloping = 58 traditional. At 5'10" you should be closer to a 56 or 55 tradional when sized "normally" for a Colnago. If this is indeed true you may find that any optimally sized frame handles substantially better than your current ride.
I doubt you'll find a 52 or 54 sloping C-50 to be overly soft. At this point though if i were you i'd try to find something in the specific size of interest to demo. That would likly be more important than the specific model.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

Just happened to be here...I'm really happy with the sizing of the EP now, the 57 trad is very solid for my build and style due to the slightly more upright position in the saddle. The 557 TT is just right and I still run a long enough stem with that TT...I probably could utilize either a 52s or a 54s and I realize with Colnago sizing, most opt for the slightly smaller sizing option. I could be OK with a 563 TT if I could find one...I personally would be wary of the 52s since I have been cramped with a 550 TT and the cockpit feels crunched to me...but the real issue for me was the ride quality more than anything. I'm gathering that the C50 (either trad or sloping) would still retain enough of a soild ride to be doable when compared with the EP...doesn't sound like it would be too "soft" for a 185-190 lb rider overall.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

5'10" "competitive fit" should be on a 55, yes probably for a "relaxed fit" the 57 could be good.

I am 5'11" I ride a 56, just sold my 55cm C40 to a guy who was 5'10" he is very happy with the fit. ( competitive )


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## c50jim (Jan 15, 2009)

I've owned Colnagos since 1995 and also have had many other brands - an old (61) semi-retired guy with lots of time to ride and buy bikes who doesn't want to spoil his kids by leaving them too much money. I'm 6' 1 1/2", weigh somewhere between 180 and 185 (181 these days). Current inventory:

3 C40s - two from 2002 with B stay, one 2003 with HP. Had original C40 from 95-05.
EP
EPS
Dream
50th anniversary
Master

All are 59 traditional. I also had a 60 Tecnos back in the late 90s and decided that 59 fit better.

I also had a C50 for a long time that I sold when I had a major injury a couple of years ago and didn't know if I'd ride again. 

So, I feel reasonably qualified to speak about the bikes you're considering, although I've never ridden a C59 (tried to find an electronic one for my Campy EPS group but couldn't find one, so stooped to a Wilier).

If 57 traditional fits you, why are you thinking of any other size? The sloping bikes are, as I understand it, a step towards going to fewer sizes as Colnago has done with the Taiwanese frames and as others have done. Size is more important than whether a sloping bike rides better or softer.

The C50 was my #1 bike in 2006 and was ridden regularly until 2010, although not as my #1 bike after 2006. EP and EPS were bought NOS from R&A this year. I'd decided this spring to build a "collection" of all carbon Colnagos after the C40. Bought another C50 too but sold it when I realized I needed a new house to hold all my bikes (sold it to the guy I'd sold my first C40 to six years ago). I've also ridden my younger son's Look 585, although not for a few years.

I'd say that any of those bikes would be stiff enough for you, including a 57 C50. The EPS was supposed to have better ride quality on long rides than the EP, but I really can't tell much difference. Frankly, I've been using the EP more because it has new 11 speed Chorus and the EPS has 10 speed Record (Chorus because the red accents on SR and Record clashed with the blue of the EP). However, I usually go with a C40 because it's the best ride of all and stiff enough for my old body that can only put out about 750 watts at peak power. My memory of the 585 would have been that its ride was smoother than the EP but if you think the EP is better, go with it.

So, how would I pick? Two things:
1. Dealer support. A good LBS is worth a lot. When my son's Cervelo broke three days before he had to leave for nationals, he had a new frame and the bike built in time to ride it once before he left. I can afford multiple bikes so I worry less about this than I would if it were my one and only but dealers are important.
2. Colour. Frankly, the C50, EP and EPS are all great bikes and you'll get great performance from any of them. Back in the Art Decor days, Colnagos were at least partially about colour and I still like my Mapeis and some of the other great colours they did in the past. If price is similar, colour might be the criterion.

Tongue in cheek selection method because they're all great bikes if you have the right size.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Many thanks jim...*

...for the great-reading post. I was never thinking about any other size really than the 57 trad, but 1st reply to my original post suggested that the C50 sloping offered up a slightly more solid ride cf. what I thought might be a "too soft" C50 when compared to the current EP I have. I was trying to get a feel for the C50 quality when comparing to the EP which has been touted as stiffer due to ribbed tubes and sturdier BB area for more powerful riders (which I am not, just heavier ~187 lb). I am also semi retired and 1 yr younger than you, so comfort is probably more important to me than high speed cornering, or breaking the sound barrier on a 10% descent. I was also saying that a 54s would be acceptable (at 563 TT) though to be honest, a 53s would be ideal (not an available size any more). A suggestion was made that a 52s or a 55/56 trad might be a more appropriate size...but size was never my concern. I know I need a longer TT for my long arms so really I'm perfect on the 57 trad.
But if a 52s was available (and it is, from RA), would I consider it...probably not in actuality. I would work with the 54s and live with extra 6mm of TT distance. All in all, it's really about availabilty of NOS and price. I could live with a 57 or even 58 trad but as size increases, I might lose a smidge of stiffness overall unless I lose some weight (fat bast#@d that I am). That was the "debate." It's a balance of the extra stiffness inherent in the EP versus the "potential" softer ride of the C50 when dealing with a 187 lb rider. Originally I thought the C50 might be a little soft and the compromise frame version became the sloping C50 as simply an option...if a 53s was made it could be the ideal option, but if you also believe that a 57 trad would be stiff enough, and just a little "smoother" or "softer" than the same size EP, then I would put stock in that view.
I'm actually ~5'10.5" with the longish arms, thus the 57 is a great fit whereas for others it might be deemed as a bit too long. I would never make a purchase unless the size was spot on or doable with some minor adjusting of the stem length...I'm happiest at a 560mm TT, but for Colnago a 3mm loss is perfect, and a 3mm gain would not be a disaster...I use a Look Ergostem on all my rides so I have infinite adjustability with my reach and bar position.
Your insight has been most helpful...My EP ride is simply spectacular, and the 585 is very very close overall. EP is Chorus 11 with a 12-29 cassette and the 39/53 crank...I love it. The 585 is an Ultegra triple for greater climbing ease. Color is unimportant, dealer is similarly so...all they have to do is load up a drivetrain and I'm good for a lot of years. Just can't justify outlay now for another $4k bike...I need sub 3k since I have everything except frame/fork/headset and drivetrain. 
Thanks again for your input...actually, everyone has been most helpful here. I now believe the C50 would not be a much "looser" ride than the EP in same size arena. Might be a bit more comfy though, if that's even possible...


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## c50jim (Jan 15, 2009)

When I read your original post, I was thinking you test rode the EP, not that you owned one. Sorry I missed that. That affects my thoughts a little bit:

- Unless you have two homes or want to equip the bikes differently, why have two of the same bike (said by the guy with 3 C40s - one for home, one for mountain home, Mapei for looks)? That argues for the new one to be a C50 or EPS. It's been a while since I rode a C50 but I'd say it's more different to the EP than the EPS is. EP and EPS sort of "feel" fast because the BB is stiff but all ride pretty well. C50 probably rides most smoothly and is less stiff at BB but probably similar to the Look (and it works for my kid who pushes 1500 watts).

- I've probably weighed 185 for much of the time I've ridden my bikes and I'm riding a slightly larger size than you. I've never had a problem even with those weak old C40s. C50 would be fine.

- Be careful looking only at top tube for sizing. The 54s is really close to 57t in effective top tube length because the 54s has a little slacker seat tube - I normally ride 57 TT with 72.75-73 degree seat tube but can ride 58 with 72 seat tube angle. However, the head tube lengths are different (yes, your Ergostem can make up for that but if you could use a regular stem you'd knock off a few ounces). Also, wheelbase is different between sloping and straight, with 52s a lot closer to 57 than 54s is. If 57 works for you, stick with it.

I figure I've ridden over 150,000 km in the 18 seasons I've owned Colnagos. I've owned most Italian Colnagos of that era, Parlees, Pinarellos, DeRosa, Cramerotti (local shop house brand but Italian made when I bought them), Wiliers, Pegoretti, Cervelo, Litespeeds, a Trek era Lemond. I also rode most of my son's bikes when he was racing (other Cervelos, Look, Salsa). The common theme of the ones I like best is Italian geometry. Whether it's a "slow" handling Colnago or a more "responsive" Pegoretti, they all handle speed and rough roads much better than other geometry I've ridden. Imagine riding up Haleakala (#2 on my bucket list) and sticking the rental Trek in the car to ride down because you just didn't trust it. I'd have ridden any of my Italian geo bikes (including my Independent that's a copy of a Cramerotti I used to own) down that hill and loved it.

Back to my point. Probably 100,000 km or so on various Colnagos. I've loved them all, except possibly the Bititan. I rode in Italy for the first time in 1995 and realized why their bikes are good - rough roads, so need a good ride; lots of hills, so need to climb; downhills full of switchbacks, so need to handle well. My Chinese Pinarello of 2010 handled as well as my Italian one of 1998 so I don't think the frame's country of origin matters, just its design. I didn't ride the Look enough to place it exactly but I think it was more like Italian geometry than Parlees or Litespeeds. As I said earlier, unless you're looking for a bike at a different home, I'd go with something different and a C50 would be a good choice - cheaper than an EP or EPS too. Heck, I'm even thinking of an Extreme C that's on ebay in my size now and that's more of a stretch than you on a 57cm C50.


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## nealrab (Aug 6, 2002)

*Very good stuff jim...*

...very fun reading there. You're 100% right on with the sizing issue and the STA, etc. My other main concern besides TT is the HT length. The smaller sizes in Colnago are running very short HT's and we all know that the fewer the spacers the better. So I tend to need more HT length because of my relative lack of flexibility (which I will unabashedly blame on age)...and a recent cervical surgery which limits my ability to ride in the drops for extended periods of time. I'm mostly on the bars in a semi upright position. I really need HT's > 140-150mm. My 585 is a L with a 560 TT and a 156mm HT...I still use spacers on the steerer. The EP has a 157mm HT...The 56 trad uses a 148mm HT, just too short for my ability level. The 54s has a 165mm HT with the 563mm TT, which might end up OK, but clearly on the upper limit for me. Anyway, those are a few of the relevant specs I've looked at.
So I agree that the 57 trad is the clear winner, and the C50 would be different enough to possibly justify if I could squeeze a deal sometime somewhere...But I'm married to the Ergostem. It weighs about 8 lbs but I love it. All of my bikes have one. If I could get down to 175 lb I could even justify its weight on the weight weenies forum as a useful piece of equipment. I was thinking about a variation on the drivetrain to create an even more different bike than the EP, but I don't find the 34/50 as comfortable for me. I end up riding at the easy end of the big ring (50/19 or 50/17) or the hard end of the small ring (34/15 or 34/14), so I shift a lot. Thus a C50 with a 39/53 would be a close approximation to the EP in many respects, except for the frame itself. Tough to justify since I don't have 2 living locations anymore.
But at least I now know that the ride quality would be somewhat different, yet sturdy enough to handle a behemoth like myself. For now, I'll bask in the glow of the EP as I glide over my chip seal imagining that I no longer have to ride in the gutter to avoid the "cobbles" that seem to be the normal pavement out here in Montana. The '07 C50 may have to wait awhile I suspect...no rush for me for sure. I'm still getting used to the Chorus stuff since all my other rides are Ultegra or DA. I do like to vary things a bit if possible, hugely fun for me to experience the differences that exist out there. Keeps my mind spinning...excuse the analogy.


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## kgg (Apr 28, 2003)

Salsa_Lover said:


> 5'10" "competitive fit" should be on a 55, yes probably for a "relaxed fit" the 57 could be good.
> 
> I am 5'11" I ride a 56, just sold my 55cm C40 to a guy who was 5'10" he is very happy with the fit. ( competitive )


People's bodies are different. I'm 5'10" and ride a 58. Lots of seatpost showing, stem is 110 and saddle is a few inches above handlebar. I seem to have abnormally long legs and gorilla arms. It's not all about height.


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