# Need New Training Plan



## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi all. I'm sick of the Time Crunched Cyclist plan. Anyone have any suggestions or links for a new *free* training plan? :thumbsup:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Friel's book?


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

I already own The Bible, but I find it too technical.
Just looking for a general plan, nothing specific to myself. Just to keep up in the group rides and increase fitness and speed.


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## Lick Skillet (Aug 21, 2011)

More group rides and drift to the front and pull more often....


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Lick Skillet said:


> More group rides and drift to the front and pull more often....


...and HTFU.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

jlandry said:


> I already own The Bible, but I find it too technical.
> Just looking for a general plan, nothing specific to myself. Just to keep up in the group rides and increase fitness and speed.


It's not an entertaining read, but if you look out the tables on how to build a general training plan, it's not bad. Once I figured out what the tables meant and what types of workouts he was describing, it's not that hard/technical.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

OK. I'll dig out my Training Bible and see what I can come up with.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Training And Racing With A Power Meter 2nd ed. by Coggan and Allen has detailed plans in it. Specifically, they lay out a 16 week FTP improvement plan and then what they term an 8 week peak performance plan. I took both and put them into an excel sheet for an easy to read format. If you PM me I'd be happy to email you a copy of what I put together or you can buy the book on Amazon for around $15...


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks, PM'd.


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## vetboy (Oct 11, 2005)

CoachChris.ca DOWNLOADS


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

J-

Sent it out. I noticed, for some reason, the second 8 weeks of the 16 week FTP plan isn't there. I'll send it to you asap...
w-


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

I think it's poor form to be copying and freely distributing other people's published work without their consent.


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## petalpower (Aug 10, 2009)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> I think it's poor form to be copying and freely distributing other people's published work without their consent.


I see nothing wrong with it. He bought the book, and made a spreadsheet of the workouts. 

Anyone can go to their local bookstore, and use their smart phone to photograph the same.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

petalpower said:


> I see nothing wrong with it. He bought the book, and made a spreadsheet of the workouts.
> 
> Anyone can go to their local bookstore, and use their smart phone to photograph the same.


Notwithstanding that anyone can do it, it doesn't make it right, or even legal. Someone publishes a book (to sell) and you think it's ok to just take the material in the book or copy it for other people? I'm not an IP lawyer, but that doesn't jump out at me as part of the "fair use" exception to copyright as I (vaguely, admittedly) recall it from law school.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

petalpower said:


> I see nothing wrong with it. He bought the book, and made a spreadsheet of the workouts.


That's OK. It's then sending that to others who have not purchased the book that's the problem.



petalpower said:


> Anyone can go to their local bookstore, and use their smart phone to photograph the same.


Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should. 

It's an infringement of copyright if done without permission of the copyright owner and is not covered by the fair use provision of Copyright law. This isn't.

Yes, it happens all the time. Still doesn't make it right.

Ask for permission. It's not hard to do. And it's the right thing to do.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

In defence of Woodys737:
The spread sheet he sent me only has the basic plan. The first thing I thought when I opened it was WOW. "Why would anyone put all this work into something and then pass it on to some stranger on the net?" He put an incredible amount of work into this spreadsheet, and I doubt I would have understood the plan if I would have read the book. 
He even adds this to the spredsheet: Adapted from: Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan,Ph.D. (2010). Training And Racing With A Power Meter 2nd ed. Velo Press, Boulder, CO 
FWIW, Thanks Woodys.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Well damn. Hate to admit it but Alex is probably right regarding bad form. 

My original intention after emailing Hunter Allen about my injury over a year ago, was to simplify the way I referenced the two training plans in Chapter 9 and the Workout Guide in Appendix B. Due to the nature of my work I have an extremely variable and busy schedule and to put the plans into an easier format helps me stay on target as I'm constantly revising the plan. I certainly have/had no intentions of passing this out but, I admit I kind of get excited when I think I can actually help someone. 

In this case, I had the best of intensions but now feel it best to ask the authors for permission. As jlandry pointed out I cited the spreadsheet as I deserve zero credit for the content.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

woodys737 said:


> In this case, I had the best of intensions


Yeah, I know that - we are all keen to share good stuff we learn/see. I just think we should pause to think when it's someone else's work before copying it out.

And I'm willing to bet that Hunter won't mind if asked. He would probably view it as a way to generate some publicity for Peaks and the book. He's a good guy. And Andy Coggan has shared so much good stuff with me as well, but I am always careful to not share without permission.

As for the applicability of the plan, well it's a (good) general plan that won't be suitable for everyone.

We have experience of others passing off our work as their own - even another coaching website posted up our material (and even software) on their website. There's not a lot you can do. Going legal is way too expensive, so you resort to an appeal to good sense.


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Alex_Simmons/RST said:


> Yeah, I know that - we are all keen to share good stuff we learn/see. I just think we should pause to think when it's someone else's work before copying it out.
> 
> And I'm willing to bet that Hunter won't mind if asked. He would probably view it as a way to generate some publicity for Peaks and the book. He's a good guy. And Andy Coggan has shared so much good stuff with me as well, but I am always careful to not share without permission.
> 
> ...


You hit it right there about a general plan, they are cookie cutter plans and will help, but never will replace a proper personal plan...

Things happen in life that cause adjustments to occur in everyone's training schedule and therefore training plan. These cookie cutter plans do not account for that. They also do not account for your specific strengths and weaknesses and therefore what to focus on.

Everyone needs a personalized planned for themselves. How they get that is their call. They can research and create or work with a knowledgeable friend/coach.

Personally this is where I feel having a coach is invaluable. Last year my coach had a plan and then my mother went and died, damn her! (I kid, this how I deal with it). Well that threw the whole plan up in the air. If I was on some cookie cutter plan I would have been screwed, I probably would have just given up. He made adjustments, kept me riding as much as I could and then when I was ready we hit it again.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Sometimes when you get sick of following a plan the best thing is to just ride. Give yourself a break from the structure and ride how you feel each day. If you feel good, go hard. If you don't feel good, just get in some base miles. If you want a day off, take a day off. Get rid of the structure for a while and just have fund being out there on your bike. You'll probably get to a point where you are rejuvenated and ready for some structure again. It has worked for me.


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

Gatorback said:


> Sometimes when you get sick of following a plan the best thing is to just ride. Give yourself a break from the structure and ride how you feel each day. If you feel good, go hard. If you don't feel good, just get in some base miles. If you want a day off, take a day off. Get rid of the structure for a while and just have fund being out there on your bike. You'll probably get to a point where you are rejuvenated and ready for some structure again. It has worked for me.


I do this with some clients at times. Provide them with the freedom to ride as they desire/choose on the day or for the week etc. It's more for a mental break than anything else.

There are also ways to provide structure that doesn't always seem like it, which is what training *with* power enables.


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## manymiles (May 26, 2010)

I feel that The Training Bible and Training and Racing with Power are the best sources for the self coached. Both books walk the reader through setting up an annual plan based on strengths and weaknesses,types of racing and available training time, testing for fitness level, etc.They both seem complicated at first but after a few times reading the value from both sources are awesome, and get you focused on doing as opposed to flip flopping on meaningful ways to train.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

manymiles said:


> I feel that The Training Bible and Training and Racing with Power are the best sources for the self coached. Both books walk the reader through setting up an annual plan based on strengths and weaknesses,types of racing and available training time, testing for fitness level, etc.They both seem complicated at first but after a few times reading the value from both sources are awesome, and get you focused on doing as opposed to flip flopping on meaningful ways to train.


Even if you don't follow a rigorous plan, those books are awesome to help key in on the type of workouts that have proven to be very effective. I'm a busy working stiff with a family and have real trouble sticking to a rigid plan. Training and Racing with a Power Meter is particularly helpful for anyone who can afford the power meter. It takes the guesswork out of whether you are training at the right intensity.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

jlandry said:


> I already own The Bible, but I find it too technical.
> Just looking for a general plan, nothing specific to myself.* Just to keep up in the group rides and increase fitness and speed*.




Thanks for all the info guys, although...
I'm not a racer, which everyone keeps refering to. I usually ride solo but I do want to be able to keep up on the group rides.
I did Time Crunched for 2 seasons, followed it religiously, and by the time I go on the first group rides of the season, I still can't keep up. After the first hour, I'm left off the back.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

jlandry said:


> .
> I did Time Crunched for 2 seasons, followed it religiously, and by the time I go on the first group rides of the season, I still can't keep up. After the first hour, I'm left off the back.


The cause of that is likely multi-factorial and most likely a combination of factors below:

1. Not enough FTP = work on both threshold power and time at threshold

2. Not enough 'pack riding skill. Many people do pretty well in a pack but get popped off late because they did more work than they think early. Or they don't get some 'shade' when they need it. 

3. Not fueling appropriately. 

4. Not being 'fit' enough to do the effort for the given time.

Reflect on those issues to try to come up with a solution.

And more FTP (most likely) never hurts anyone.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

woodys737 said:


> Well damn. Hate to admit it but Alex is probably right regarding bad form.
> 
> My original intention after emailing Hunter Allen about my injury over a year ago, was to simplify the way I referenced the two training plans in Chapter 9 and the Workout Guide in Appendix B. Due to the nature of my work I have an extremely variable and busy schedule and to put the plans into an easier format helps me stay on target as I'm constantly revising the plan. I certainly have/had no intentions of passing this out but, I admit I kind of get excited when I think I can actually help someone.
> 
> In this case, I had the best of intensions but now feel it best to ask the authors for permission. As jlandry pointed out I cited the spreadsheet as I deserve zero credit for the content.


It should be worth mentioning that the training plans set up in RATWPM are targeting very specific weaknesses.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

So I've read Racing and Training with a Power Meter a number of times, I actually own both editions. The book is invaluable in terms of understanding all the information your PM is throwing and to and also emphasizes the importance of hard, threshold level work in terms of improving a cyclist. Recently, with the help of Woody's spreadsheet I had the chance to break down the suggested training plans in the book and I have one question: does anyone actually follow all that madness? 

First the disclaimer. I understand these plans are targeting people with a sub par sprint and explosiveness. If you were to strip it down to basics, its mostly tempo, SST and threshold work which will actually make a very strong rider. There isn't a lot of filler and it makes effective use of time.

The madness I'm referring to is the micromanaged intervals in each week. As an example, week 6 has 4 days of very intense intervals. In week 8, the endurance ride is as follows: 15 minute warm up, 1 hour SST, 20-30 min endurance, 2x 20 threshold, 30 minutes endurance, 6x 3min vo2, 15 minute cool down. How does anyone actually remember all the steps in a days ride? Why are so many different zones being targeted in a specific ride? What happened to periodization and specificity?

I thought the idea of a coach was to figure out your weaknesses and develop a training plan that would target your important races. Said plan would be mostly hard, consistent riding with some workouts thrown in to target weaknesses, not a crazy circus of intervals.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

jlandry said:


> Thanks for all the info guys, although...
> I'm not a racer, which everyone keeps refering to. I usually ride solo but I do want to be able to keep up on the group rides.
> I did Time Crunched for 2 seasons, followed it religiously, and by the time I go on the first group rides of the season, I still can't keep up. After the first hour, I'm left off the back.



Getting dropped isn't unusual. If you don't get dropped every now and then, you probably aren't riding with a group that will push you. It happens to multiple people on most rides unless it is a no drop ride. 

One thing to remember is that riding in a group takes a certain type of fitness--riding alone can never really fully prepare you for group riding and you won't gain that final "group ride" fitness until you get out there. Similarly, racers don't develop their full race fitness until they actually start racing. 

You may just need more group rides. Try to hang on longer over time--setting little goals to help you improve and track the progress. And when you are riding with stronger riders and know you will have trouble staying on, take shorter pulls or don't pull at all by just staying out of the rotation. If they are good riders they won't mind and will encourage you along. The group I ride with has 6 or 8 guys who can always stay in the rotation the whole ride, but most of the group either doesn't pull and skips in the rotation so they don't pull as much. And on the spirited ride virtually everyone gets dropped at some point along the way--the big guns go really hard at the end and unless you are a Pro/Cat 1/Cat 2 you are not going to keep up with them.


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## iliveonnitro (Feb 19, 2006)

kbiker3111 said:


> So I've read Racing and Training with a Power Meter a number of times, I actually own both editions. The book is invaluable in terms of understanding all the information your PM is throwing and to and also emphasizes the importance of hard, threshold level work in terms of improving a cyclist. Recently, with the help of Woody's spreadsheet I had the chance to break down the suggested training plans in the book and I have one question: does anyone actually follow all that madness?
> 
> First the disclaimer. I understand these plans are targeting people with a sub par sprint and explosiveness. If you were to strip it down to basics, its mostly tempo, SST and threshold work which will actually make a very strong rider. There isn't a lot of filler and it makes effective use of time.
> 
> ...


You've discovered the reason behind hiring a good coach and not following a generic plan out of a book.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

iliveonnitro said:


> You've discovered the reason behind hiring a good coach and not following a generic plan out of a book.


But the book implies these 'generic' plans were lifted directly from athletes Coggan and Allen had successfully coached. Nitro, I believe you had experience working with Coggan. Are the plans from the book typical of what was prescribed for athletes or was there a reason to present them as overly complicated?


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## rbart4506 (Aug 4, 2004)

Actually that crazy circus of intervals is what usually happens in a race 

Personally when my coach gives me a recipe as the one you have listed I simply make up a cheat sheet that I tape to my toptube and go from there...

The PT, a Garmin and the lap feature are invaluable those days


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## Alex_Simmons/RST (Jan 12, 2008)

kbiker3111 said:


> But the book implies these 'generic' plans were lifted directly from athletes Coggan and Allen had successfully coached. Nitro, I believe you had experience working with Coggan. Are the plans from the book typical of what was prescribed for athletes or was there a reason to present them as overly complicated?


I can't speak for iliveonnitro but Andy Coggan is not a coach. He's a scientist.

As for the workouts, we call them "kitchen sink" workouts. Idea is to provide race level stress. Whether or not it is necessary is debatable, most will simply go race or have a vigorous group hit out (not a big group) to get something similar. 

I tend not to provide such complex instructions, although some workouts might have a mix of intervals types which can provide some race specific simulation.

Hunter Allen likes the idea of a "breakthrough" workout - days which take you places (effort level) you haven't been before. At some stage we all need those.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

kbiker3111-While categorized as generic, the FTP Improvement plan is specific for a certain power and fatigue profile for a rider wanting to reach a narrow set of goals. What's difficult to do and why a coach is so helpful is that my fatigue profile is a bit different from the rider in the book. As indicated above, this plan may not be helpful to many but it does gives the reader additional insight how to better train limiters within the general flow of the plan. The title of the plan may indicate that this is a plan designed to only raise FTP but in reality it's designed to raise power at threshold while working on VO2 power, AC power and to a lesser degree neuromuscular power.


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Started reading "The Bible" again. Man, I wish he would just get on with the "creating a training plan" part of the book. : )


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## jlandry (Jan 12, 2007)

Update: I emailed Road Bike Rider dot com about the training plans that they offer. I gave them my info about my strengths and weaknesses, and they suggested a plan. This winter I’ll be doing the “Power pedalling” training plan. Thanks for all your help everyone.


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