# Stage 8 - Contender or Pretender? (spoyler)



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Stage 8 is the first big mountain top finish of the Giro. There is no more drafting or sprinting up a finishing hill. It is the stage where big moves are made and the GC takes shape.


So here's the stage:
<img src="https://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/graphics/profile8.jpg">
*Results*


Provisional
1 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 4.04.19
2 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 0.30
3 José E. Gutierrez Cataluna (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems
4 Giampaolo Caruso (Ita) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 0.45
5 Luca Mazzanti (Ita) Ceramica Panaria-Navigare 1.09
6 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 1.15
7 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 
8 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas 1.32
9 José Rujano Guillen (Ven) Selle Italia-Serramenti Diquigiovanni 1.50
10 Julio Alberto Perez Cuapio (Mex) Ceramica Panaria-Navigare 1.52

*General classification after stage 8*

1 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 31.41.17
2 José E. Gutierrez Cataluna (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.34
3 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 1.48
4 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.35
5 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile Team 2.43
6 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas 2.48
7 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 3.20
8 Giampaolo Caruso (Ita) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 3.23


9 Tom Danielson (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 3.33</pre>
Live report:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//giro06/?id=live/giro068


So this post is a true spoiler. Very few of us have seen the coverage because of the OLN late coverage situation. But what happened is pretty self-explanatory. The heads of state have arrived. The pretenders have been annihilated and the contenders tried to limit their loses.

My questions:

- Who is Guti? José E. Gutierrez Cataluna (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems ? He now seems like a real solid player. Who is he? What has he done? Can he go the distance. I do not recall a single person here or in the media predicting success for him.

- I'm a wee bit curios about Giampaolo Caruso (Ita) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team as well.

- Is Salvodelli cooked? Did Danielson wait for him? Could Danielson have done a lot better?

francois


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

Gutierrez Cataluna is one of those riders who generally does well but rarely wins anything although he has two stage victories in the Dauphine and one in the Vuelta. 

Salvodelli isn't cooked yet, but Basso is firing up the stove and looking for that recipe of Savoldelli all' Funghi Porcini.  He will probably lose more time in the ITT on thursday so things are looking a bit bleak at the moment. Where the hell are Davitamon-Lotto when you need them?


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

José E. Gutierrez did get third place in the first stage time trial. So he can trial trial and climb. He sounds like a real contender if he can avoid burning out.


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## botto (Jul 22, 2005)

francois said:


> Did Danielson wait for him?


Nope. That would have been difficult, seeing as ol' TD was shelled when they hit the climb and the selection was made. 

Maybe the question should be: did Paolo wait for Danielson? 



francois said:


> Could Danielson have done a lot better?


Dunno. Also don't really know how much work he's done so far (missed yesterday's stage, and apparently he did some massive pulls in the TTT).


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

botto said:


> Nope. That would have been difficult, seeing as ol' TD was shelled when they hit the climb and the selection was made.
> 
> Maybe the question should be: did Paolo wait for Danielson?
> 
> ...


I'm not insinuating btw. Just an honest question as I haven't seen any tv coverage yet. Jus saw this:
*16:43 CEST 169km/2km to go* Tommy D is leading Savoldelli and Noè at 1'25.

francois


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## botto (Jul 22, 2005)

Once they hit the final climb, and Sastre lit things up, Danielson missed the cut and Savoldelli was isolated. 

You didn't see him until the cameras switched to him pacing Savoldelli.





francois said:


> I'm not insinuating btw. Just an honest question as I haven't seen any tv coverage yet. Jus saw this:
> *16:43 CEST 169km/2km to go* Tommy D is leading Savoldelli and Noè at 1'25.
> 
> francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I just can't believe how big the time gaps are in GC! 

3 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 1.48
4 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 2.35
5 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) T-Mobile Team 2.43
6 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas 2.48
7 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir 3.20

Now those are big gaps after only one mountain stage. Cunego is going to lose more time in the TT. Basso is just going to walk away with this unless something changes.

Now there's a lot of racing left. And it's too early to tell. And anything can happen, I know of course. Jeez, I hope something happens because the smart money says that Basso is going to add to the lead on every mountain top finish.

Cunego was my pick. I think he's still got good chance. He needs to find a weakness in Basso's armor.

francois


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

I hope Basso isn't going to pull a Lance on this years Giro. TDF being decided on the first mountain top finish every year became very tiresome.


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## Americano_a_Roma (Feb 10, 2005)

jbrumm said:


> I hope Basso isn't going to pull a Lance on this years Giro. TDF being decided on the first mountain top finish every year became very tiresome.


But this is the Giro, not the Tour! Wait 'till that ski slope in stage 17. Plus the Mortirolo... I still think a pure climber like Cunego or Rujano will be able to light it up on some of those. Although, to judge by what happened today it looks like Basso just has another gear; as the CN coverage said, Basso pulled away from Cunego "like he was on a scooter". And he's only likely to gain in the ITT. Maybe some of the other contenders could put a little E.coli in his pasta? If this goes on he could get sick, lose an hour, and still win the damn thing! Cunego didn't look bad, though he's gonna be hurt by the TT.


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## dlbcx (Aug 28, 2002)

Basso and CSC rode a pretty smart race. Let Saunier Duval do all of the hard chasing before the climb, which kept Sastre and Basso fresh. Then, with 7 km, Sastre lit it up and got rid of the support climbers for the GC guys while Basso sat in and waited for his chance. Sastre must have rode a pretty hard pace because Cuapio, Sella and Rujano got gapped, except Rujano managed to get back into the thick of things.
The only drawback is watching the coverage on RAI is tough because I don't understand a lick of Italian...but, if I watch enough of the RAI, by the end of the Giro, I might actually understand 'em!


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

dlbcx said:


> Basso and CSC rode a pretty smart race. Let Saunier Duval do all of the hard chasing before the climb, which kept Sastre and Basso fresh. Then, with 7 km, Sastre lit it up and got rid of the support climbers for the GC guys while Basso sat in and waited for his chance. Sastre must have rode a pretty hard pace because Cuapio, Sella and Rujano got gapped, except Rujano managed to get back into the thick of things.
> The only drawback is watching the coverage on RAI is tough because I don't understand a lick of Italian...but, if I watch enough of the RAI, by the end of the Giro, I might actually understand 'em!


That was my point above. Total Postal/Lance style of stage racing. Basso can climb as well as most of the true climbers, and he can TT about as well as the best TT riders. Who's that remind you of? And, oh yeah, Basso has the strongest team.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

jbrumm said:


> That was my point above. Total Postal/Lance style of stage racing. Basso can climb as well as most of the true climbers, and he can TT about as well as the best TT riders. Who's that remind you of? And, oh yeah, Basso has the strongest team.


I have to admit, even though I said many times that Basso is a fool for trying to attempt Giro and TdF double this year, I now think he might have a chance at pulling it off.

I still think he is a full, he should pick one (I would pick TdF) and stick with it. 

But today's time gaps speak volumes about his preparation and his talent. I thought Cunego (and even Savoldelli) will give him more of a competition. 

He is a bit like Armstrong, I guess. I know people don't like utter domination, but I think it's absolutely amazing if he can only increase his lead over the rivals from now on. Awesomeness=amazing. If you want close races, go to equally mediocre (in terms of preparation or talent) riders.


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## peter1 (Apr 10, 2002)

Brutal stage. Flat as a board, then wham! Basso looked strongest, but remember last year...Danielson did work for Salvodelli, then dropped off the pace, then when Salvo conked, helped him up the hill. He looked pretty fresh. Simoni looked stronger than he was. Di Luca and Rujano are not going to sneak up on anyone this year, that's for certain. 

For a second I thought Disco was going to give TD the go-ahead to drop Salvo and move up on GC. I think he could have gained 30 seconds to a minute. But that's just my impression.

For the poster who described Basso as not one of the "strongest climbers," I'd argue that he IS the strongest climber. He dropped DiLuca/Rujano/Cunego etc. without much difficulty today.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

peter1 said:


> Brutal stage. Flat as a board, then wham! Basso looked strongest, but remember last year...Danielson did work for Salvodelli, then dropped off the pace, then when Salvo conked, helped him up the hill. He looked pretty fresh. Simoni looked stronger than he was. Di Luca and Rujano are not going to sneak up on anyone this year, that's for certain.
> 
> For a second I thought Disco was going to give TD the go-ahead to drop Salvo and move up on GC. I think he could have gained 30 seconds to a minute. But that's just my impression.
> 
> For the poster who described Basso as not one of the "strongest climbers," I'd argue that he IS the strongest climber. He dropped DiLuca/Rujano/Cunego etc. without much difficulty today.



Absolutely agreed. The stage was soo harsh. Everyone looked pale at the finish, including Basso. He really put the hurt on himself and everyone else. It's nice to see him let it all hang out and not ride so conservatively.

Nobody picked him as the strongest climber but today's results speak volumes. It is his kind of climb though. Not too steep, just high speed, power. When the climbs get steeper and more varied, the others might have a chance.

In this off-season, I heard that Basso climbed for 6 hours at a time on his TT bike. This was done by the great Riis to strengthen his back and TT legs, I believe. Seeing his performance today, it really looked like the difference. He just left Cunego 'like a motor scooter' as someone said.

Yes it looks like Danielson could have gained time. Salvodelli cracked and Danielson (who was dropped earlier) nursed him up the hill.

francois


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## nwilkes (Jun 21, 2004)

jbrumm said:


> That was my point above. Total Postal/Lance style of stage racing. Basso can climb as well as most of the true climbers, and he can TT about as well as the best TT riders. Who's that remind you of? And, oh yeah, Basso has the strongest team.


The same solution applies to Basso as it did to Lance (in all of the tours but one). Make Basso tow big fat Ullrich up the climbs in a kiddie trailer full of ice-cream, beer and Kraftwerk CDs. 

That'll level everything out for those weaker riders, you know, the peleton.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

Rujano was pretty interesting.

Yesterday, he got sick and was reportedly throwing up on the side of the road.

Today, he got dropped and clawed his way back to the front. As soon as he got there, he immediately goes on the attack. That is awesome!! After that all hell broke loose as Cunego went off the front then Basso countered.

Simoni was setting up all climb for his signature attack. It got diffused unfortunately by these other aggressors.

francois


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## Americano_a_Roma (Feb 10, 2005)

It's worth keeping in mind that this is an isolated mountain stage with just one climb, so everyone could pretty much bury themselves on the final climb knowing that it'll be (relatively) easy riding until thursday. Things could go differently later when you have several hard stages in a row, plus multiple hard climbs in a single stage. 

Really, I'm just trying to imagine how Basso could NOT walk away with this thing...


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

francois said:


> Rujano was pretty interesting.
> 
> Yesterday, he got sick and was reportedly throwing up on the side of the road.
> 
> ...


Yeah, then Rujano got dropped but good. If he rode more sensibly after the catch he would have finished several groups higher. The pointless attack that wasted vital energy and got him all of 15-30 meters- _brilliant_! Given his off-season antics detailed in Procycling, the comment of *thousand dollar legs, nickel brain* comes to mind. 

Simoni and Deluca made their teams ride at the front for like 100k, then both get dropped when it counts. THAT'S going to be an uncomfortable breakfast table. Looks like Deluca should have stuck with his prior year's preparation. I think he has Brad McGee syndrome (rides the Giro well once as a surprise, changes everything- then does much worse. Oops.) 

Cunego on the other hand, rode smart and burned his matches when it mattered (the anti-Rujano). He could not hang with Basso today, but he kept it close. He likely will be a factor in the last week. If Basso slips, kid rocket could pounce.

Paolo looked a bit slow today whenever it was steep-- so much for the "he's cruising" nonsense. I expect him to get stronger as the Giro progresses and score some time in the TT's, but he may be battling for the third podium spot at best at this point. If this continues, Tommy D will have to be given some rope during the last week. 

Basso looks very strong, but did last year too. Given the severe nature of the last week, how hot he came into the Giro and most of the early season, the possible downside is either fading in the last week, or another bad day like last year. Otherwise it's his race to lose right now. 

Fun stage though.


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Why do people say it's so impossible to win Giro/TdF now? As I recall, the year before Mr Singlemind starting winning ever TdF, Pantani pulled the double (yea yea...year of epo).

It's not like it hasn't been done before.


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## dlbcx (Aug 28, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> Yeah, then Rujano got dropped but good. If he rode more sensibly after the catch he would have finished several groups higher. The pointless attack that wasted vital energy and got him all of 15-30 meters- _brilliant_! Given his off-season antics detailed in Procycling, the comment of *thousand dollar legs, nickel brain* comes to mind.
> 
> Simoni and Deluca made their teams ride at the front for like 100k, then both get dropped when it counts. THAT'S going to be an uncomfortable breakfast table. Looks like Deluca should have stuck with his prior year's preparation. I think he has Brad McGee syndrome (rides the Giro well once as a surprise, changes everything- then does much worse. Oops.)
> 
> ...


It is pretty much Basso's race to lose. If his form holds up, he should be hold onto the jersey until Milan. But, there is a long ways to go before this Giro is in the can!


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## jbrumm (Aug 8, 2004)

Einstruzende said:


> Why do people say it's so impossible to win Giro/TdF now? As I recall, the year before Mr Singlemind starting winning ever TdF, Pantani pulled the double (yea yea...year of epo).
> 
> It's not like it hasn't been done before.


Not impossible, but training is getting so targeted that a person can find the razor edge of fitness so as to be fitter than his fellow competitors so as to triumph. But, the edge can only last so long.

There is a chance that Basso can ride the razor twice in one season. But, don't be surprised if Basso is sick or more likely a half step behind at the TDF. It is becoming more difficult to dope too. Except for that new 1GH or something. If Basso gets the right "supplements" than all bets are off.


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## PbOkole (Feb 10, 2004)

*I really hate this attitude.*



jbrumm said:


> I hope Basso isn't going to pull a Lance on this years Giro. TDF being decided on the first mountain top finish every year became very tiresome.


Armstrong did not make the Tour boring. The other 171 riders are to blame for making it boring. THEY did by not race to beat him. They raced for second. By the same token, if Basso wins this race in the style that Armstrong won the Tour, IT'S NOT HIS FAULT IF YOU FIND IT BORING! Blame the other riders for not being able to beat him. To blame the winner for a boring race is completely misguided and shows a very tenuous grasp of bicycle racing. 

Pb


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Another great stage today. 

Just want to say that just because Basso got sick last year doesn't mean he'll get sick again this year. These things happen. I think Cunego, Simoni and Salvodelli might all have stages in the next week or two where they will all be able to strike. 

What a great Giro this is!


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

il sogno said:


> What a great Giro this is!


What a great course this is. Whether this will be a great Giro remains to be seen. Cunego and Simoni will be six and seven minutes behind after Thursday, so Basso may have to melt down on a stage to make things competitive. There is a long way to go, but from a fan's perspective it's not looking good for the G.C. fight.

I want to know what happened to Savoldelli. He was looking so good until today. Bad day or what?

Once again Tommy D. showed that once the real climbers put the hammer down he has not got what it takes.


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## pspande (Jan 5, 2006)

*This early moe could make for a more interesting giro*

Now all the other contenders NEED to make a strong move. Basso can defend for the most part but the others have to put it out there and really push. The point about others racing for second in the tdf during the lance years is totally right. 2003 was the most dramatic year because people were racing for the win. 

This year, there are at least 6 guys who feel they can win. They now will need to prove it.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

There are two 28 year olds in this race who have been spoken of as the 'next big thing' - difference is that one has stood on the podium of a major Tour, has stage wins in 2 GTs and other prestigious wins to his name (Criterium International), the other has won domestic races and has yet to be seen attacking on a big mountain stage in a GT. I know which one I'd pick as the one to watch...

I also think we'll see Basso attacking in the stages to come - I think he wants to win in style by taking at least one stage with a big solo effort - there's something about him that strikes me as very 'old school' (and hurrah for that) - after all, he technically only countered Cunego's move before pouring on the pace and riding the little Prince off his wheel in true Indurain fashion (he even has that grimace/grin thing going on).


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> ...
> 
> Once again Tommy D. showed that once the real climbers put the hammer down he has not got what it takes.


Ya know, i'm starting to think this is true (though I was hoping otherwise). Climbing after 100km+ of racing is a lot different than riding up a single hill TT style (his Mt Washington & Mt Evans records).

I'd still like to be able to ride like him though


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

PbOkole said:


> Armstrong did not make the Tour boring. The other 171 riders are to blame for making it boring.
> Pb


Parity makes for interesting racing, dominance does not. Look at the hatred towards Ferrari and Schumacher in F1 until they fell off the pace last year. Of course it is up to the others to make the race and blaming the winner doesn't make sense usually, but in the case of Armstrong I'd say he should get some sh*t. Not for the Tour per se, but for making the last several years of his career solely about the Tour without trying to win anything else. He probably had the ability to do the Giro-Tour double or win a monument, etc. but he decided to focus exclusively on the Tour which probably contributed significantly to his clear dominance and a boring race.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

il sogno said:


> I think Cunego, Simoni and Salvodelli might all have stages in the next week or two where they will all be able to strike.


I think unless Basso gets the runs again he's going to walk away with this one. But I hope I'm wrong


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## ampastoral (Oct 3, 2005)

as for paolo....apparently sean yates said that it was the pollen in the air that slowed him on the climb. okay, i hate pollen, too, but i'm starting to really like floyd's take on such matters. why can't a rider just say they got beat that day? does there always have to be a reason? basso shelled everyone. my gf (who graciously watched the coverage with me) thought basso looked like he was "out for a stroll." stage over.

i know a lot of this stuff is simply pr. our guy can't be weak, b/c he's sick...yada yada. but come on....i know this type of stuff has been discussed to death in other threads, so i know this gripe isn't new. still, the pollen slowed me down....hehe. i want someone to be desparate for an excuse/reason and really slip up. 

"You/Your rider looked to be in real trouble today. What happened"

"Well, today was a combination of factors. First, the crosswinds really slowed him down. he has big ears ya know. Then, the gradient really got to him. He has a hard time going uphill with the extra water bottle he couldn't ditch due to a fused cage/bottle issue. After that, the fog inhibited the uptake of oxygen in his lungs. Clearly these are factors outside of actual bike racing. Had we been indoors on rollers, our guy would have faired much better.....oops, wait, i mean the sun made him sick, or the pollen, or the dust mites...."


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## Guest (May 15, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I think unless Basso gets the runs again he's going to walk away with this one. But I hope I'm wrong


I think it's too early to tell still. We've seen some big gaps swinging back and forth through the first week+ of this Giro. First Paolo looked really strong, now Basso. It ain't over till the big mountains sing  

Oh and *Under ACrookedSky *
[email protected]%&$ Rain! is right on the money! I think I'm starting to loose my sanity here in New Hampster


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*Although that wasn't an 'official climb'*

it was real enough for the contenders to flex. Simoni and DiLuca both had designs on winning hence all the hard work their doms did to put them in position to attack. Too bad they both got schooled when it was showtime. Basso is reminding me of LA, absolute deadpan face, almost blissful with a badd a$$ lieutentant driving a murderous pace. Sastre was money putting everyone in distress and running a tempo so high only Cunego could try a jump. Basso calmly countered and then without standing on the pedals just road away from him. Did you guys (and gals) see Cunego shaking his head across the finish? That was a "WTF, I just went 110% and the guy just rode away from me" look, big psych. blow.
Cunego doesn't have a comfortable gap on Savoldelli with the TT coming up. PS could make a comeback for 2nd but unless Ivan blows (or gets sick) it's his race. He'll do a 'predictable race' get more time on the TT and then just ride along with any attacks. All the 'climbers' need to gain considerable time so if they attack Ivan can use them like doms, ride their tempo and allow them a stage and finish on their wheel or pip them on the line. Though yesterday wasn't an 'official Mtn stage' all the heads of state showed up to make a statement and Basso pounded his fist on the table. PS may have had a case of pollen induced E.I.B. (exercise induced bronchiospasm) I've had it and it's no fun. Maybe (as posted here) he just got beat.But where was his help? No Chechu, T.D. arriving late.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

AJL said:


> I think it's too early to tell still.


Perhaps but he looked very good putting a lot of time into his rivals at what at least by appearances wasn't a 100% do or die type of effort. And other than Cunego most of the rest didn't look good at all. Simoni could hardly hold Piepoli's wheel, Savoldelli was dropped very early, Di Luca was a suffering mess.

At least of the pre-race favorites I'd say Cunego and Rujano look the most threatening but Basso will probably get at least a couple if not upwards of 4 or 5 minutes on them in the TT.

Maybe it will take an Guiterrez to challenge?


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## Guest (May 15, 2006)

Well, Basso won't get time on Paolo, but yeah, he's going to put more hurt on the pure climbers, that's for sure (in the next ITT). It looks, to some extent, that Basso and Cunego are racing into form, where as Salovdelli seems to have peaked already. As far a DiLuca and Simoni - they aren't looking very good right now, but that *could* change.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

ampastoral said:


> as for paolo....apparently sean yates said that it was the pollen in the air that slowed him on the climb. okay, i hate pollen, too, but i'm starting to really like floyd's take on such matters. why can't a rider just say they got beat that day? does there always have to be a reason? basso shelled everyone. my gf (who graciously watched the coverage with me) thought basso looked like he was "out for a stroll." stage over.


Seems Salvodelli has an allergy to Basso's legs... 

Basso has looked as cool as a cucumber the last few days. See him riding up the steep inclines on Saturday sitting down?!?! Has the guy even broken a sweat so far this Giro? 

And yeah ATP brings up a point I've been wondering about. It's not just a Salvodelli problem. Where was the rest of Disco? Beltran, Rubiera, McCartney? LA's old guard at the Tour. They weren't there to help Salvodelli. And didn't Benoit Joachim withdraw today? 

Check out this photo. Basso looks like he's smiling as he goes by Cunego!


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## BarryG (Jul 5, 2004)

A late spring in Italy means the pollen is still lingering, and Salvodelli & Julich are suffering. I wouldn't count Paolo out just yet.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

il sogno said:


> Check out this photo. Basso looks like he's smiling as he goes by Cunego!


I know what happened there. On Cunego's vicious attack, Basso closed soooo easily

Bjarne Riis then goth on the horn and said. "You have to go now Eeevan. Everybody is in trouble. Give it full power!!! Basso went. At the finish, Cunego shook his head in disgust. He now knows what he's up against.

francois


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I should give mad props to OLN btw.

With 30 minutes to go as the race unfolded, my coverage went like this.

LOUD BLASTING COMMERCIAL

2 minutes of coverage as the attack happens

LOUD commercials. Cyclism sunday!!!!!!

2 minutes of coverage and Rujano and Cunego attack

LOUD ads 

2 minutes of coverage...


WTF? What is wrong with you OLN? 

Anyway, little rant. Now that I have cycling.tv, I know I don't have to sit quietly through this silliness. Nice to hear Bobke though.

francois


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

To date the TTT has had a really decisive effect on the GC. 

Without the time loss caps, CSC has really put Basso in a great position vis a vis other GC contenders a third of the way into the Giro. Case in point: He put 30 seconds into Cunego yesterday -- in itself not a heckuva lot of time -- but CSC (and Basso) gained a minute and 15 seconds on Lampre (and Cunego) on the TTT. So after two GC-decisive days of racing added together, Basso has a 1:48 on Cunego. You do the numbers again on the guys who lost material amounts of time on the TTT -- i.e., every team other than T-Mobile -- and the damage was really done on the TTT. 

Now the next GC-decisive day is the ITT in a couple of days. Savoldelli should claw back a nice chunk of time, but Basso won't be losing too much to Paolo. The other GC riders should lost time to Basso on the ITT, except maybe the 2006 Giro revelation Gutierrez from Phonak.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

fornaca68 said:


> The other GC riders should lost time to Basso on the ITT, except maybe the 2006 Giro revelation Gutierrez from Phonak.


Gonchar should do well also.


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## ampastoral (Oct 3, 2005)

francois said:


> I should give mad props to OLN btw.
> 
> With 30 minutes to go as the race unfolded, my coverage went like this.
> 
> ...


OMG!! i was thinking the same thing. it was silly. the stage seemed perfect for TdF type mountain finish coverage. pull that commercial every two minutes garbage at the beginning of the coverage, the stay "live" (taped) for the final "climb." when will those t.v. people listen to us experts...


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## funknuggets (Feb 4, 2004)

There were a couple of strange findings on this. Number one, DiLuca and Simoni are pretenders. Not only do they not have an attack, they can hardly limit losses. They are only lucky that this Giro has a lot of mtn finishes, so the other non climbers can slip away. Paolo... BAD day.... you got your hands full my brutha. All I can say is that Simoni and Paolo are DAMN lucky to have quality teammates that can ferry their shell-shocked butts across the finish. DiLuca should have chosen to keep his mouth shut... cuz Basso and several others just shut it for him.

Rujano... good recovery, but tactically a moron. Had he been content and sat and let Sastre, Basso and Cunego pull him along, he likely would have had... third or fourth perhaps... less than a minute back.


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

Basso v Savoldelli in Giro and TdF ITTs in 2005 (excluding prologues):

Giro stage 8 - Basso finishes 27" ahead of Savoldelli
Giro stage 18 - Basso 23" ahead of Savoldelli

TdF stage 20 - Basso 4' 50" ahead of Savoldelli

Savoldelli finished ahead of Basso in the 1.5kms Giro TT, but Basso easily beat Savoldelli in the TdF 19km opening ITT.

So you would imagine that Basso would be fairly confident of finishing ahead of Savoldelli in the stage 11 ITT - and certainly confident that Savoldelli won't be taking 2 - 3 minutes out of him...


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*yup B-Girl*

unless PS can get time back other places he's never gonna make up that 2.5 minutes.
TT's will be a wash or slightly favor Ivan, PS will be hard pressed to make time on a climb.better hope there's a downhill he can take advantage of. ;o)
Simoni, Di Luca, and to some extent Cunego all must be spinning. This is the type of stage they are supposed to make time on Basso. PS and maybe Gonchar will beat them (maybe not Cunego) by crushing them in the TT's and staying close on the climbs.
Simoni and Di luca both sent their troops up because they both must have felt they had the legs. Must be depressing being shown they do not in such fashion.

my guess is Bjarne said "eeevan, if you can take him just pedal away, don't attack, make it look eeeeeeeasy"


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## Guest (May 15, 2006)

But it is 2006 and it looks like PS has improved his TTing more than Basso has. We'll see. If Paolo *really* is suffering due to allergies and possible stomache problems - he could come up short by a significant amount of time, and his Giro will be over unless a miracle occurs.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

I thought Rujano did pretty well. Despite his puking his way through Saturday and then the chaseback to the leaders and failed attack Sunday he still finished quite a way up on Paolo and others. The only problem I saw with his attack was he persisted after it was clear it didn't work rather than falling back and trying again. The bad news is he is unfortunately shaping up to be an even bigger head case than Pantani, especially if the rumors are true about him dropping out to save himself for the [pancake flat TT heavy] Tour.

I thought PS would blow on Sunday since he was laboring on the harder climbs on Saturday, but I didn't think it would be quite so much. DiLuca has been a early surprise to me. I didn't expect him to blow until next weekend since the terrain to date has been not that different from the Ardennes classics where he always went well. The only saving grace for Simoni is he usually gets better the harder a race gets so the third week should be kinder to him than some of the others.

The good news for people bored by dominance is the only way Cunego, Simoni, Rujano (assuming he keeps going) and the rest can move up is by going for broke in the big mountain stages to come.

Personally I love dominant performances. I don't like to watch people ride poorly since I am always afraid it's catching (there has been considerable research that shows just watching a good performance improves your own, so the opposite).


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## vivelance6 (Mar 27, 2005)

peter1 said:


> Brutal stage. Flat as a board, then wham! Basso looked strongest, but remember last year...Danielson did work for Salvodelli, then dropped off the pace, then when Salvo conked, helped him up the hill. He looked pretty fresh. Simoni looked stronger than he was. Di Luca and Rujano are not going to sneak up on anyone this year, that's for certain.
> 
> For a second I thought Disco was going to give TD the go-ahead to drop Salvo and move up on GC. I think he could have gained 30 seconds to a minute. But that's just my impression.
> 
> For the poster who described Basso as not one of the "strongest climbers," I'd argue that he IS the strongest climber. He dropped DiLuca/Rujano/Cunego etc. without much difficulty today.


Agree with the quote here. Who would think that Basso is not a superb climber, as he showed on the first mountain stage that he is the best climber in the race. He just has TT talent too, unlike the other strong climbers. In the last 2 Tours, Basso was the last guy left with Lance almost every time. I would say he is a very good climber.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*exactly*

as basso has been the only guy to hold LA's wheel consistently over the last 2 years. Most of the other Giro contenders who have done the Tour (Gibo comes to mind) are also introduced to what it means to be 'elite GT climber'. To me this recent trend is only pointing out that now that the Giro has more of the complete ProTour teams the dominance of the Tour riders.


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

francois said:


> So this post is a true spoiler. Very few of us have seen the coverage because of the OLN late coverage situation. But what happened is pretty self-explanatory. The heads of state have arrived. The pretenders have been annihilated and the contenders tried to limit their loses.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> ...



Since I always get superstitious during May-Sept I will refrain from my usual bombast, however, I will say Senor Basso pulled out a serious can of whoop azz and inflicted
some serious hurt on the "contenders".....two weeks to go is a long time but my boys from CSC are the best team going and it will be tough for the others to come back.....hopefully they will make it interesting and attack like banshees in heat everytime the road turns upward......

PS not cooked IMO but will have to ride his heart out to make the podium....

Rujano....A for effort, F for tactics.....

Cunego looking good

Simoni, Done, will not podium

Guti, we'll know where he stands after the ITT....any other darkhorses that may yet shine....next sat will tell as who is left standing in contention after the ITT


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> as basso has been the only guy to hold LA's wheel consistently over the last 2 years. Most of the other Giro contenders who have done the Tour (Gibo comes to mind) are also introduced to what it means to be 'elite GT climber'. To me this recent trend is only pointing out that now that the Giro has more of the complete ProTour teams the dominance of the Tour riders.



Exactly! That and with the concomitant increase in speed, the 'pure' climbers are knackered before they even hit the climbs.....be curious to see a stat on the ave speeds of the last two Giro's


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

terzo rene said:


> The good news for people bored by dominance is the only way Cunego, Simoni, Rujano (assuming he keeps going) and the rest can move up is by going for broke in the big mountain stages to come.


Totally agree. These guys will have to attack on each of the mountain stages and do what nobody successfully could do to Lance for seven years at the TdF: isolate Basso. Cunego, Gibo, Rujano, Gutierrez, il Falco and DiLuca have to swarm on Basso and do attack after attack after attack to keep Basso focused on that rider closest to Basso on GC while the others further down on GC take advantage of the longer rope they now enjoy and claw back time. As of today, Basso would pounce on Cunego's and Gutierrez's wheels only and disregard the other riders, but then Cunego and Gutierrez need to attack often to make Basso expend effort, use up his teammates, etc. Of course, what would likely happen is that the guys close to Basso attack, and Basso counters and passes them effortlessly like Basso did yesterday with Cunego. 

Short of that, this 2006 Giro is a race for second place. Sounds familiar, doesn't it??


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Bianchigirl said:


> TdF stage 20 - Basso 4' 50" ahead of Savoldelli


The TDF isn't really relevant here, since Savoldelli wasn't racing Basso at the time.


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

mohair_chair said:


> The TDF isn't really relevant here, since Savoldelli wasn't racing Basso at the time.



I wager Savoldelli will beat Basso in the ITT........not by much, but he'll beat him....won't matter though as he can't hang with him on the climbs.....Cunego et al will lose more chunks and their only hope Basso will blow some......

so who's the darkhorse gonna be......anyone....anyone


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

svend said:


> I wager Savoldelli will beat Basso in the ITT........not by much, but he'll beat him....won't matter though as he can't hang with him on the climbs.....Cunego et al will lose more chunks and their only hope Basso will blow some......
> 
> so who's the darkhorse gonna be......anyone....anyone


None, barring a disaster like the Stelvio last year.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

It's still very early, with many hard climbs to come. A rider can 'toast' themselves on one climb and not be able to recover for the ones to come. The Giro win is still possible for many contenders.


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## Guest (May 16, 2006)

I think Basso learned alot riding next to LA in the TdF - heavy personal training and solid team work. I remember an incident where LA was reconing on of the TdF mountain stages. When he gave Chris C. the training data, Chris wonder why the heck there were two sets of numbers. LA just said he climbed the mountain twice to make sure he knew it. Pause...then Chris says something like "you sick f^ck!). Riis apparently was having Basso keep doing 6 hour climbs up various steep mountain stages. The man knows how to learn!


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> The TDF isn't really relevant here, since Savoldelli wasn't racing Basso at the time.


I expect Basso thought he was racing Savoldelli, though...


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

MikeBiker said:


> It's still very early, with many hard climbs to come. A rider can 'toast' themselves on one climb and not be able to recover for the ones to come. The Giro win is still possible for many contenders.


But the fact is, Basso has put himself in a greatv position - he knows he can TT and he knows he only has to defend in the mountains - the fact that he also has the option to do what he did on stage 8 again just strengthens his position.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Bianchigirl said:


> I expect Basso thought he was racing Savoldelli, though...


That's hard to imagine, considering Basso was a protected rider roughly 35 minutes ahead on GC at the time, while Savoldelli was a hard-working domestique for Armstrong.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*B-Girl's got it right*

Basso has all the tactical advantage which means he turns every contender into a climbing dom. They have to make time, all he has to do is sit on them.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

atpjunkie said:


> Basso has all the tactical advantage which means he turns every contender into a climbing dom. They have to make time, all he has to do is sit on them.


If he played pure tactics, he'll just sit on his rivals (cunego and a couple others) and save himself for the TDF. He can pad his lead with the ITT.

But if he's a true Italiano who wants to make his mama proud. He would attack and attack and win by 10 minutes.

I hope for the latter. More fireworks, full gas, and risk taking please.

francois


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

francois said:


> If he played pure tactics, he'll just sit on his rivals (cunego and a couple others) and save himself for the TDF. He can pad his lead with the ITT.
> 
> But if he's a true Italiano who wants to make his mama proud. He would attack and attack and win by 10 minutes.
> 
> ...



I expect him to sit on and then try and take the stage in the last 1k-500m, he is very patient.....he has a whole teams worth of super doms now........BUT, one off day and its back to the races


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

francois - I hope you're right - I also sense that Basso wants to win with the panache of a grand champion, and we haven't seen him on the attack yet - he only countered Cunego and then rode him off his wheel.

I think the young guns, knowing that they are unlikely to surpass Armstrong's Tour record, are looking at different ways to seal their reputations - and a surefire way is to either become a great all rounder in the Merckx mould or win GTs in style by attacking in the Coppi mould.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*or win 2 GTs*

which is exactly what Basso is trying. Good points all of ya'll. I think he'll wait and do one cheeky attack. Personally I think what he did on stage 8 was pure panache. Let all the contenders throw their best shots and then quietly ride away from them gasping for breathe. To me it was very Coppi-esque, that long legged clean spin that just without having to stand up and hammer left everyone ruined.


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## svend (Jul 18, 2003)

atpjunkie said:


> which is exactly what Basso is trying. Good points all of ya'll. I think he'll wait and do one cheeky attack. Personally I think what he did on stage 8 was pure panache. Let all the contenders throw their best shots and then quietly ride away from them gasping for breathe. To me it was very Coppi-esque, that long legged clean spin that just without having to stand up and hammer left everyone ruined.



Exactly! Cunego could've just sat on when he went around as Basso didn't 'attack'.....except he couldn't hold his wheel, Doh! Just an uptick in the tempo was all it took for Basso to drop 'em....


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

svend said:


> Exactly! Cunego could've just sat on when he went around as Basso didn't 'attack'.....except he couldn't hold his wheel, Doh! Just an uptick in the tempo was all it took for Basso to drop 'em....


Oh, that was an attack by Basso. He didn't stand up maybe but he put the hammer down.

I guarantee you that Riis was yelling in his ear telling him it was time. Basso accelerated like he was on a motor scooter and he was the picture of pain. I believe his legs and back are stronger now that he can sit down and pedal away.

francois


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## Bianchigirl (Sep 17, 2004)

He reminded me of the way that Indurain would control the pure climbers - even has that grimace/smile thing going on - that ability to just put the hammer down and ride anyone off his wheel - when Indurain was in crushing form in the Pyrenees it was an awesome sight to see...

And Basso certainly has _souplesse,_ doesn't he?


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*very Indurain-esque indeed*

was for me really enjoyable to see. to ride away without having to stand up and attack, to just kick the tempo with the hands on the tops leaving a pure climber gasping for air, panache.
yes now that's a word ya don't hear much souplesse and Ivan has it in spades. It's what reminded me of Coppi when he took off. those long legs just cycling in what appeared to be effortless rhythm.


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