# Speculation



## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

So after speaking to the Bontrager rep and attempting to explain to the block heads over in "wheels" section that Mavics are not as fast as Zipps I was contemplating a few things

Now Bontrager made the XXX Lites in OCLV 55 weighing in at 900 something grams

The rep said they could not make the OCLV 55 in clincher because the carbon just isnt tough enough

Sooooooooooo............

got me thinking

If this new Carbon combo seen on the 6.9 could be incorporated into a wehelset not only would it be stiffer and stronger than OCLV 110 but lighter too!

I'm sure it will tkae Bontrager 4 years to put it to the test though


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

CARBON110 said:


> So after speaking to the Bontrager rep and attempting to explain to the block heads over in "wheels" section that Mavics are not as fast as Zipps


...And Zipps are not as fast as Aeolus.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

and Aeolus not as fast as Bora ultra.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

well, you are persistant aren't you!

lol =)


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

z ken said:


> and Aeolus not as fast as Bora ultra.


Could you provide a source? I've never seen any evidence of this...


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

yes, too be good at something you've to be stubborn or persistent. heheh


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

source?? well Robbie Mceven and Tom Boonen use it. is that " good " enough for speed?? heheh


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

z ken said:


> source?? well Robbie Mceven and Tom Boonen use it. is that " good " enough for speed?? heheh


I'm not sure what it means for something to be "good enough for speed". I can't make any sense of that question.

Now, if you're asking whether the fact that McEwen and Boonen use the wheels is sufficient evidence that the Boras are faster (ie: more aerodynamic overall) than the Aeolus, than the answer is clearly and obviously no. Professional athletes are typically *paid* to ride particular brands of wheels and components. 

That a winning athlete happens to use a particular product does not inherently make that product superior to comparable products. There are simply too many other factors at play to sufficiently isolate the product in question, and compare/contrast it to comparable products.

So the answer is no....your example that two successful riders use the Boras is not sufficient evidence that they are the faster wheels, no matter how much you might like to believe otherwise.

If you have an authoritative, reputable, technical source that examines drag coefficients at various yaw angles, compares and contrasts the resulting data between the Bora and Aeolus wheelsets, and proves...scientifically...that the Boras are indeed faster, you'll have me (and likely, everyone else here) convinced. 

Until then, I'm afraid you've got nothing.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

well, actual i think Zipp wheels are the fastest base on wind tunnel test. er right?? why you bought Madone?? Lance factor?? could be, might be . i might be wrong. if Lance was riding Huffy then i would be owning Huffy right now. i'll buy what the " winners " ride b/c in america we like winners not runner-up ( one of reason i drop Giants for Trek ) plus do you think Bora look sexier than any other wheels out there??


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

z ken said:


> well, actual i think Zipp wheels are the fastest base on wind tunnel test. er right??


In carefully-controlled conditions with zero yaw, the Zipps produce slightly less drag than the Aeolus wheels. The thing is, we don't ride our bikes in wind tunnels. On any given ride, there is almost always a crosswind component, however slight. The Aeolus wheels are more aerodynamic when a crosswind component is introduced, making them faster than the Zipps.



z ken said:


> if Lance was riding Huffy then i would be owning Huffy right now. i'll buy what the " winners " ride b/c in america we like winners not runner-up ( one of reason i drop Giants for Trek )


Well, to each his own. I tend to place more value on the *technical* merits of the product in question. Winners aren't necessarily using the best products, just as losers aren't necessarily using the worst. Like I said before....there are many other very significant variables at play. 



z ken said:


> plus do you think Bora look sexier than any other wheels out there??


Actually, I think the slightly iridescent green carbon colored XXX-Lite wheelset with the red spokes is the coolest-looking wheelset out there....but, as I said before....to each his own.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

WN: if aeolus indeed faster than Zipps with wind and other conditions factor in, how come Lance lost to david Z in 05 TDF prologue?? bad luck?? i do believe Zipp wheels are faster than aeolus or Boras but Boras just hand down the most beautiful thing since cindy crawford was born. heheh can you and i afford to own aeolus/zipp/Boras?? probably not. so i guess i'll riding my bontrager race lite meanwhile.... zoom zoom


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## the_tank (Feb 5, 2007)

A couple of reasons...

1) Zabriskie is the man, and can win just about any TT or prologue on any given day; however departed the gate two hours before Lance (the last rider to leave)... and in fact had a slight tailwind for much of the 20 km.

2) Lance wasn't riding the Aeolus as part of his TT setup; instead they used the Hed 3 carbon up front. Hence you can't argue Zabriskie beat him because a Zipp is faster than Aeolus.

Give me an Aeolus wheel over anything else out there. 5 year warranty, slick hubs, and no rider weight limit. Now... I just need to be able to afford a set.


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

z ken said:


> WN: if aeolus indeed faster than Zipps with wind and other conditions factor in, how come Lance lost to david Z in 05 TDF prologue??


Because it's entirely possible (and quite common) for a rider to win despite having slower wheels than his or her competitors. 

Using your logic, z ken, each and every rider using Zipps will automatically win each and every race they ever enter.....and other brands will always finish behind them.

Clearly, this is not the case. I've said it before (more than once), and I'll say it again: *There are many very significant factors that contribute....or detract from....a rider's ability to win a race.* The effect of a fast wheelset is just one piece of a very large pie. Races are not won and lost by wheelsets.





z ken said:


> i do believe Zipp wheels are faster than aeolus or Boras


Great! Now go find some actual *DATA* to *prove* it. "Data", by the way, is commonly defined as specific scientific tests conducted under controlled conditions. Not a win or two by whichever pro rider you currently idolize.


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## the_tank (Feb 5, 2007)

WhiskeyNovember said:


> Because it's entirely possible (and quite common) for a rider to win despite having slower wheels than his or her competitors.



exactly.


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

lol good stuff 

Ken, Whiskey is trying to help you out with accurate information proven by science and common sense. 

Back to the subject ....... carbon clinchers made of OCLV 55/HM carbon


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

By the way Ken, I hope you have very good bike handling skills.

Deep dish wheelsets demand prudence, arm strength, and know how when the wind or turbulence caused by other riders, large vehicles and strong winds kick up. They can literally blow you right into traffic if you don't know what you are doing. Be sure to understand how to straighten out your bike if you get into a wobble, especially going downhill.

1) lean back on your saddle/ put your weight on the back of saddle or above it, think Mtn Biking here
2) push your arms straight out, preferrably in the drops if you are going downhill
3) keep your feet at 9 and 3 oclock
4) slowly apply brakes

First time it happened to me I was going 45mph down through 2 S turns when two 18 wheelers, one going same way as me and one going opposite way, went by at the same time and all of a sudden I looked like a feather being blown back and forth; my bike uncontrollable whipping back and forth. I knew what to do but it was something else


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## the_tank (Feb 5, 2007)

Is there a demand for a 55gsm/Hi Mod Carbon clincher? I think the pricing would be a be prohibitive. A 55gsm/Hi Mod tubular? Maybe... but, can they build a wheel that meets their criteria? (5 year warranty, no rider weight limit, UCI crush proof) It's scary how light such a wheelset may be... sub 900 grams?

As for 55gsm not being strong enough for clinchers; it could be a density issue, as 55gsm is half the density of 110gsm... therefore it may not be practical to build a "hooked" rim without using so twice as much carbon. Just my thoughts... I'm certainly no composites expert.

As for Campy Boras... personally not a fan. They're kinda fugly up close... plus, (flame on) I don't much care for Campy.



CARBON110 said:


> By the way Ken, I hope you have very good bike handling skills.
> 
> Deep dish wheelsets demand prudence, arm strength, and know how when the wind or turbulence caused by other riders, large vehicles and strong winds kick up. They can literally blow you right into traffic if you don't know what you are doing. Be sure to understand how to straighten out your bike if you get into a wobble, especially going downhill.
> 
> ...


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

didn't the zipp website provides an actual facts about Zipps vs. other wheels?? well i was about to buy 404 today but came up with flu/allegy/dehydration and now staying in bed recoverying. as my bike handling skill, i'm pretty good: cat-like reflex, 155lbs strong and one of the best descenter in my club ride. i'm kind of fearless, wild and " sometime " crazy rider. hahah i'm build more of like sprinter than climber. although i've improved my climbing lately. may be my madone got something to do it ( bought it couple months ago ) also hoping 404/bora would carry me over top. i don't like finished in the middle of pack ( tired of being average )

WN: i appreciated/respect your thought but it's tough to let go of having Bora/404 in your hand and got to return to the shelf eventhough i got 3k in my pocket [sob] i'm alright i'll live. hahah

tank: carbon 55 or whatever that is. first it's OVER $ 3k ( $ 3,200 detail i think ) second if you willing to shelling out $ 3k, why not get tubular bc/ tubular is indeed faster than clincher, that everyone can agree to. er right??


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## the_tank (Feb 5, 2007)

tank: carbon 55 or whatever that is. first it's OVER $ 3k ( $ 3,200 detail i think ) second if you willing to shelling out $ 3k, why not get tubular bc/ tubular is indeed faster than clincher, that everyone can agree to. er right??[/QUOTE]

55gsm clinchers don't exisit... I was merely speculating how much such and item (if possible) _could_ cost. 

As for Zipp's data; I'm not sure if they've tested an Aeouls yet (of course, don't quote me on that)... but there are more variables than dead on wind tests. Heck, I've even heard that the dimples are only effective for a leading edge. Both wheels are fast. To each his own. The only advantage I can attribute to Zipp's over the Aeolus is the ability to true the wheel without removing the tire. Lastly, Steve Hed knows a bit about aerodynamics and had a lot to do with the Aeolus design.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

tank: i believe on madone 6.9 ssl the wheels are bontrager carbon/55 clincher. i might be wrong. i did see it with my own eyes. man, what a beauty ( the bike, not the wheels. bontragers might make good wheels but they're not for bling factor ) as for which wheels are faster, i could care less. it's not like i'll go to TDF and trying to get Robbie or Tom in a sprint. i'm trying to beat my club buddies and i believe boras/404 will show me the way. it's kind like cheating since most of my buddies are " lower/middle classes ". heheh my bad!!


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Now... This thread is traying a little and getting a tad confusing... :idea:



WhiskeyNovember said:


> In carefully-controlled conditions with zero yaw, the Zipps produce slightly less drag than the Aeolus wheels. The thing is, we don't ride our bikes in wind tunnels. On any given ride, there is almost always a crosswind component, however slight. The Aeolus wheels are more aerodynamic when a crosswind component is introduced, making them faster than the Zipps.


Any data on this? I'd love the Aeolus but whoa, at 65mms, they need a little getting used to I guess  A bus/truck when by me the other day on my *32mm Race X Lite Carbon Aeros* and that made my bike swerve a little. WHOA... 

z ken, sure you don't TRULY believe that Dave Z won Lance because of Zipps??? 
He's a great TT rider. Like others have said, so many factors come into play for that result on that day. Lance could be a little 'off'. Wind conditions changed a little. Etc etc etc. 
Give McEwen or Boonen an Aeolus and they'd still kick butt in sprints. Give them Shimano deep dish wheels and they'd STILL kick butt. Neuvation wheels and guess what? Same result for sure. 

Is Trek the best bike out there? It's good, great but I won't say that. I'd say it's good enough for Lance and well, it's a good enough bike. Is cervelo the 'new best' bike? I'd say it's a great bike and well, good enough for Sastre and the like. That said, most aero wheels are sufficiently good. It boils down to how much you're willing to spend and what you fancy and who's marketing hype/strategy you feel best speaks to you. If you think the 404s are the best, the get them. (By the way, the new Z4s or Zed Tech wheels are better with the ceramic bearings, but cost a whole heck lot)

But one set of wheels I'd truly claim to be the best are Lightweights. Why? Pros like Lance, Ulrich and many many more BUY them for their races. THEY PAY FOR THEM. Why else if they're not good? They're the best IMHO in terms of durability, stiffness, aero, weight and workmanship combined. They're not the most aero, but overall, based on those factors, they are the best wheels out there.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

uzziefly: i believed lance did pass big jan during 05 prologue, right?? that mean lance must be the best form of his life. that says something about Zipps wheels. yeah i do want 404 but couldn't find a deal. plus boras/404 sure look sexier than aeolus specially once you've spin up. could people identify if you're riding aeolus wheels?? probably not unless they work for trek/bontrager. could people identify if you're riding boras/404. hell yeah!! anyway what am i trying to say is i want people to know i'm owning one hot hot wheels ( while i zipp pass them. heheh ) right now i'm not buying anything until TOC ( couple more weeks ) and hopefully at the event i would get a fair deal ( under $ 1500 )


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

eh?? that means lance must be in the best form of his life? he's in great form for EVERY tour and THAT'S why he beats EVERYONE. He has a higher pain and lactate tolerance than normal and his lungs are also better. Why can't it be that Dave Z really rode the best TT of his career that day? Lance himself said he lost to the better man. 

And, if you want sexy wheels, Zipps are nice, but Lightweights are THE wheels dude. When pros pay $5k for their own wheels, they are THE set of wheels dude. They are identifiable from far away with the spokes and all that. 

There is no way I'll agree Dave Z won because of Zipps and not because he was the better rider that day. Even Lance has off days on Le Tour. Remember when his bike was damaged and he crashed? Does that mean all the other bikes are better? Heck no. Does it mean that well, since Boonen is the World Champion, all other bikes and wheels are lousy? Lance was a world champion too. So? 

Dude, trek bikes aren't the lightest out there but hey, did those with lighter bikes win the mountain stages and beat lance in the overall GC? No... 

And, TT bikes are supposed to be super aero and all that right? I rode on a group ride once with a guy on a TT bike. I dropped his a$$ so bad I never saw him even when the group re-grouped at the end of the ride. Is my Madone more aero then? Nope. It's the legs, lungs and mentality. 

Not saying here that Zipps are bad. They are great. As are the Aeolus and Bora and Token wheels and of course, Lightweights.


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## the_tank (Feb 5, 2007)

z ken said:


> i believed lance did pass big jan during 05 prologue, right?? that mean lance must be the best form of his life. that says something about Zipps wheels. yeah i do want 404 but couldn't find a deal. plus boras/404 sure look sexier than aeolus specially once you've spin up. could people identify if you're riding aeolus wheels?? probably not unless they work for trek/bontrager. could people identify if you're riding boras/404. hell yeah!! anyway what am i trying to say is i want people to know i'm owning one hot hot wheels ( while i zipp pass them. heheh ) right now i'm not buying anything until TOC ( couple more weeks ) and hopefully at the event i would get a fair deal ( under $ 1500 )


Don't forget Ullrich crashed through his team car's rear window the day before the prologue.

Under $1500 for a set of 404's or Boras? Only unless you're getting them used... a shop would be losing money at that price...

Just curious, but how many people are you flying by with your current wheelset?


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

tank: with my current bontrager race lite, i zipp pass some of them but not when i'm climbing up that 19 miles, 4200+ feet elevation and 8% grade. that's when i realized i needed lighter wheels ( race lite weights in at uncool 1690 grams ) so from race lite to 404 would almost like from driving toyota camry to RX7. zoom zoom


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

z ken said:


> tank: with my current bontrager race lite, i zipp pass some of them* but not when i'm climbing up that 19 miles, 4200+ feet elevation and 8% grade. that's when i realized i needed lighter wheels ( race lite weights in at uncool 1690 grams ) so from race lite to 404 would almost like from driving toyota camry to RX7. zoom zoom*



You're for real??

Dude, saving say what, hmm, 400 grams on a wheelset will make you err, err, how much faster again experts out there? (Kerry where are you?!!! I can't remember the numbers!!!!)
400 grams out of the total rider+bike weight = ? Ok, say you weigh 65kg. Bike weighs 7.5kg Total = 72.5kg.

After saving 400g, total weight = 72.1kg. 0.55% savings, which = to im not sure how much wattage savings which ultimately translates to a SLIGHT increase in speed by virtue of mathematics. 

Along with your new found confidence (and hey, this plays a bigger role in all honesty), you get a little faster too. 

But to seriously say you NEED new wheels to climb better, dude, don't say that man. 

You might not have much weight to lose, or none at all if you're really lean already and that's good. But, I'm sure you can work on your strength, aerobic base, technique, power and all that. All these will let you climb much faster than switching out to a pair of 404s anytime... 

A friend of mine on a 22lbs or so bike dropped me on a climb (thankfully not by a lot) and I'm on a Madone SSL that weighs 15lbs plus. He's a better climber than I am and is stronger too. Simple. Pity he doesn't race though since I'm cat 2 but he sure as heck can go to cat 1. We're both sprinters in track n field but he just prefers to ride but not race, other than in team events occasionally. 

I switched bikes with my friend for a while on another occasion (different guy) and rode his Trek 1500 and beat him flat and dropped him on flat ground.

Get those wheels not because you honestly think it'll help you by leaps and bounds. Rather, get them because you want them, can afford them and simply, like them. The benefits they provide like aero advantage, well, that's a decent advantage but still, it's not gonna save you ten minutes on a 40km TT or sth. 

Train hard, ride hard, ride frequent and ride safe. Get what new gear/equipment you want because you can afford them and because you like them but don't think they're gonna tremendously help you. that's my point.

cheers


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## CARBON110 (Apr 17, 2002)

Uzzie, I don't think Bontrager made a carbon 32mm deep dish wheel. They made the Aeros xlite whichis all aluminum. The carbonw heels bontrager make are : 24mm deep, 44mm deep, 50mm deep, 65 mm deep , and a disk

don't buy any deep dish wheels if you are not comfortable with cross winds. I can't explain this enough. If you can't admit you don't yet possess the skills to balance on deep dish wheels in turbulance and strong wind then you will learn a hard expnsive painfull lesson

don't buy them AT all unless you know how to ride with them, you can easily find yourself in front of a car or face down on the pave'


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

CARBON110 said:


> Uzzie, I don't think Bontrager made a carbon 32mm deep dish wheel. They made the Aeros xlite whichis all aluminum. The carbonw heels bontrager make are : 24mm deep, 44mm deep, 50mm deep, 65 mm deep , and a disk
> 
> don't buy any deep dish wheels if you are not comfortable with cross winds. I can't explain this enough. If you can't admit you don't yet possess the skills to balance on deep dish wheels in turbulance and strong wind then you will learn a hard expnsive painfull lesson
> 
> don't buy them AT all unless you know how to ride with them, you can easily find yourself in front of a car or face down on the pave'


My Race X Lite Carbon Aeros are 32mm deep. Or 31.8mm.. Sth like that. 

I'm okay with crosswinds.. Just that the truck the other day caught me by surprise... Strong winds are okay. It's turbulence that can get a tad tricky as you might not expect them. But yeah, I can balance okay on em. I'm sure I'll get better in time.. Wait.. The winds wont be so strong in time too so yeah..


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

uzziefly: yes i understand what you're trying to say. mainly i got 404 b/c of bling factor and i do believe it'll help me improve my overall performance, say 10%?? i remembered i used to ride Easton Ascent II up this 19 miles, 4,200 feet elevation, 8% grade mountain with, of course some pains, but not nearly fainted trying with my currently bontrager race lite. i'm kind of like your friend. i don't plan to race or turn pro. heck i'm already 33 years young and have to work 5-6 days a week supporting family. i'll be lucky if i could find time to ride more than 10 hours a week. so as of right now still waiting for deal on 404 for less than $ 1500. the search continues...


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

hey gang, tomorrow 404 will officially be mine. wahahah seriously i went to store today to check the " final " details: weights, front/rear, colors and of course pricetage. all tumbs up and i'm all set to finally owning it tomorrow. should've brought my $ 1700 for me then i'd have it by my bed side right now, that's how much it's going to cost, after tax.


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## UPcyclist (Nov 14, 2006)

How about some Obermeyer Lightweight's vs. Zipp's or Aeolus' or Bora's?


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

up: lightweights for sure are the god of all wheels and so are the pricetage from $ 4k to $ 6k ( gulp!! ) next best?? Boras should be or very near everyone's dream wheels list. at $ 3K pricetage is somewhat stiff but affordable if you REALLY in to racing. zipps consider by many as the most afforable top-notch wheels b/c it offers many different type of sets from its best all-around 303/404 to legandary Z999. price range from $ 1500 to $ 4000. Aeolus is of course home of trek and discovery and its only " true " advantage/use is for TT. all of these four companies are top of the names and easily bling factor. so if you have $ 3k, better question would be: Boras or Z404. talk about about an apple or an orange. for me?? boras edges z 404 by a hair.

anyway today i finally got my dream wheels, well second choice ( boras ), 404 tubular for $ 1912 after tax, gluing labor, screwers, carbon brake pads and 2 tyres ( conti's sprinter ) and it'll be ready for my " dead flat " 60 miles " test ride " come next tuesday. next weekend it's my club ride during 19 miles, 4200 feet elevation, 8%. and hopefully my time to shine. tick tick tick...


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## WhiskeyNovember (May 31, 2003)

z ken said:


> and its only " true " advantage/use is for TT.


Absolutely false.


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## z ken (Dec 30, 2006)

??????


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