# TdF winners? (sans dopers)



## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

Excluding anyone who was ever involved in doping allegation or admitted to doping (a lot of spaniards on the list)

1996: Luttenberger
1997: Escartin
1998: Rinero
1999: Escartin
2000: Beloki
2001: Beloki
2002: Beloki
2003: Zubeldia
2004: Azevedo
2005: Evans
2006: Evans
2007: Evans
2008: Sastre
2009: Schleck
2010: Schleck
2011: Evans


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Didn't Azevedo ride with you know who on that one really bad team?


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## phoehn9111 (May 11, 2005)

Meh. Sorting through that amorphous mess again.
Rehashing and restirring up pointless effluvium from the past.
People are racing right now, this year and it is incredible.
That should be enough for any fan. So many worthy
athlete competitors. Let it go.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

phoehn9111 said:


> Meh. Sorting through that amorphous mess again.
> Rehashing and restirring up pointless effluvium from the past.
> People are racing right now, this year and it is incredible.
> That should be enough for any fan. So many worthy
> athlete competitors. Let it go.


But Cadel who is retiring won 4 Tours! I agree this is a bit pointless.


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## road addict (Sep 23, 2005)

didn't he work at one time with that banned doctor ?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

road addict said:


> didn't he work at one time with that banned doctor ?


Yeah once. Although it would be interesting to know who paid who what for those "supervised hill repetitions." Tony Rominger set it up as he was Evan's manager and:

"Two Swiss newspapers on Monday alleged that cash from Ferrari’s operations went through Rominger’s management company, but the former Vuelta a España winner-turned-super agent denied the claims."

Tony Rominger denies money laundering, other claims - VeloNews.com

The two combined paint a pretty damning picture of at least Rominger, but why would he funnel money if it wasn't to hide money spent on training athletes he managed? To be fair it doesn't tie Evans directly to Ferrari and doping.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

OP do you really think none of those guys doped? They were just able to hang with known dopers at the time?? You really think they had that big of a normal physiological advantage? 

Only Americans have readily admitted to doping, the rest of the world, while maybe cleaner now than it used to be, surely was doping at the same time, they just haven't admitted it. I love Jens, but I am not delusional about him doping in the past.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

jmorgan said:


> Only Americans have *readily* admitted to doping, the rest of the world, while maybe cleaner now than it used to be, surely was doping at the same time, they just haven't admitted it. I love Jens, but I am not delusional about him doping in the past.


_Readily_ as in after a decade of lies and evasions, or after it was apparent that court appearances and serious consequences might ensue, or your teammates had outed you/there was money to be made from a book?

Only Americans? Seriously,' not sure if serious'. I can't see any distinction along national lines.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jmorgan said:


> OP do you really think none of those guys doped? They were just able to hang with known dopers at the time?? You really think they had that big of a normal physiological advantage?
> 
> Only Americans have readily admitted to doping, the rest of the world, while maybe cleaner now than it used to be, surely was doping at the same time, they just haven't admitted it. I love Jens, but I am not delusional about him doping in the past.


Only americans readily admitted? Americans like: Bjarne Riis, Brian Holm, Michael Rasmussen . Kurt Asle Arvesen. Steven de Jongh. Ryder Hesjeldal. Steffen Kjærgaard. Jacky Durand. Michael Boogerd. Stuart O'Grady.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

O'Grady admitted it after the Festina positive? Ya don't say. 

No Spanish riders on your list above. Interesting.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Beloki was involved in the Saiz most his career. Escartin was a patient of Ferrari.
so there goes 5 years worth of winners right there


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

spade2you said:


> No Spanish riders on your list above. Interesting.


I hope you're joking.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

foto said:


> I hope you're joking.


Was there a Spanish rider in his list of confessions? Spanish Confessions would be a neat band name. As it stands, Beloki, Eskartin, and Zubeldia ain't confessing any time soon. Azevedo is Portuguese, but still denying doping or seeing any while he was a key player or US Postal, Discovery, and Astana.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Was there a Spanish rider in his list of confessions? Spanish Confessions would be a neat band name. As it stands, Beloki, Eskartin, and Zubeldia ain't confessing any time soon. Azevedo is Portuguese, but still denying doping or seeing any while he was a key player or US Postal, Discovery, and Astana.


so what? how does that change is was not all Americans "readily" (sorry I giggle at that one every time) to dope?
It's not exactly news Spain is a cess pool of corruption and cheats.


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## jmorgan (Apr 13, 2012)

den bakker said:


> so what? how does that change is was not all Americans "readily" (sorry I giggle at that one every time) to dope?
> It's not exactly news Spain is a cess pool of corruption and cheats.


Which non-Americans have come forward without testing positive first?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> so what? how does that change is was not all Americans "readily" (sorry I giggle at that one every time) to dope?
> It's not exactly news Spain is a cess pool of corruption and cheats.


At least we agree on something.



jmorgan said:


> Which non-Americans have come forward without testing positive first?


Most of the US Posties and Disco riders didn't test positive. There was the batch of Garmin riders who served the 6 month suspension. A couple guys did right as they retired.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

spade2you said:


> Most of the US Posties and Disco riders didn't test positive. There was the batch of Garmin riders who served the 6 month suspension. A couple guys did right as they retired.


They didn't test positive, but the only reason they came forward was to avoid a two year or lifetime ban. I'm trying to understand the distinction you're trying to make. They doped, they just didn't get popped testing. Seems to make little material difference no?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

DrSmile said:


> They didn't test positive, but the only reason they came forward was to avoid a two year or lifetime ban. I'm trying to understand the distinction you're trying to make. They doped, they just didn't get popped testing. Seems to make little material difference no?


I suppose guys like Michael Barry didn't have to since they were retiring.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

jmorgan said:


> Which non-Americans have come forward without testing positive first?


I explicitly made my list that way. Otherwise there would be plenty of spaniards as well. 
Bjarne Riis, Brian Holm, Michael Rasmussen . Kurt Asle Arvesen. Steven de Jongh. Ryder Hesjeldal. Steffen Kjærgaard. Jacky Durand. Michael Boogerd. Stuart O'Grady. 

That is not an all inclusive list.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

DrSmile said:


> They didn't test positive, but the only reason they came forward was to avoid a two year or lifetime ban. I'm trying to understand the distinction you're trying to make. They doped, they just didn't get popped testing. Seems to make little material difference no?


They came forward because JV told them to go and tell the truth or else...


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> I explicitly made my list that way. Otherwise there would be plenty of spaniards as well.
> Bjarne Riis, Brian Holm, Michael Rasmussen . Kurt Asle Arvesen. Steven de Jongh. Ryder Hesjeldal. Steffen Kjærgaard. Jacky Durand. Michael Boogerd. Stuart O'Grady.
> 
> That is not an all inclusive list.


Ryder was among the Garmin ex US Postal/Discovery. I'm not sure I'd include O'Grady since we was retiring and aware of the '98 TdF positive. Sure he confessed before the positive became public, but he knew it was coming and soon.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Ryder was among the Garmin ex US Postal/Discovery. I'm not sure I'd include O'Grady since we was retiring and aware of the '98 TdF positive. Sure he confessed before the positive became public, but he knew it was coming and soon.


keep attention.
I responded to : Only Americans have readily admitted to doping, 
not sure I care who you would include.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Jacques Anquetil said it well....."You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water.” 
.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

love4himies said:


> They came forward because JV told them to go and tell the truth or else...


Well, they were subpoenaed by a federal investigator, and testified under oath. Not sure how much JV had to do with whether they told the truth or not.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Jacques Anquetil said it well....."You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water.”
> .


Times were different back then. THEY JUST WERE!


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

den bakker said:


> keep attention.
> I responded to : Only Americans have readily admitted to doping,
> not sure I care who you would include.


Other than O'Grady, didn't the rest of those guys also admit to doping several years into retirement? Didn't Boogerd deny doping in a book that he wrote about his racing years prior to finally admitting?


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

foto said:


> Well, they were subpoenaed by a federal investigator, and testified under oath. Not sure how much JV had to do with whether they told the truth or not.


Not all of them were.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

spade2you said:


> Other than O'Grady, didn't the rest of those guys also admit to doping several years into retirement? Didn't Boogerd deny doping in a book that he wrote about his racing years prior to finally admitting?


and your point in all the loaded questions is? Concerning the post I originally replied to?


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

jmorgan said:


> Which non-Americans have come forward without testing positive first?


Filip Meirhaeghe


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

foto said:


> Well, they were subpoenaed by a federal investigator, and testified under oath. Not sure how much JV had to do with whether they told the truth or not.


None of JV's riders were subpoenaed or testified under oath. They testified willingly with the support of their team


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Filip Meirhaeghe


This article makes it sound like he tested positive and then folded. 

Meirhaeghe tests positive, admits guilt, retires - VeloNews.com


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Escartin? His biomechanics and position were so bad he needed an IV to get out of bed, let alone make it up a mountain.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

spade2you said:


> Times were different back then. THEY JUST WERE!


Yes they were........They probably averaged 20 mph.
.
.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> This article makes it sound like he tested positive and then folded.
> 
> Meirhaeghe tests positive, admits guilt, retires - VeloNews.com


Doh, sorry. I meant Jérôme Chiotti.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> None of JV's riders were subpoenaed or testified under oath. They testified willingly with the support of their team


We're not privy to the closed door stuff but it's pretty likely they were offered the chance to come in "voluntarily" with the strong possibility of a very much less desirable option B hanging over their heads.

"Come talk to us, or go stand with him."


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

davidka said:


> We're not privy to the closed door stuff but it's pretty likely they were offered the chance to come in "voluntarily" with the strong possibility of a very much less desirable option B hanging over their heads.
> 
> "Come talk to us, or go stand with him."


6 month suspension, mostly during the off season.


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