# Why do we have US Pro championships when the real pro's don't come?



## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

We line up the race with a time when the real US Pros are racing the Giro and just coming off the Tour of California. Who shows up? The continental pro racers. Not to put down what they do, but it would be nice to see the stars and stripes on the shoulders of a pro rider in Europe. Look at the last three winners of the road race. Matthew Busche, Ben King, and Timmy Duggan. Great guys, but doing zip in Europe. How is it that we can get Taylor Phinney, Peter Stetina, Tee Jay, or Joe Dombrovski to show up and win these races....oh yeah, we do them on top of the focus of the racing season. Do the Giro or win a US Pro championship. Do the Dauphine or win the US Pro Championships.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Yeah; Very good question.


On who's calender does the U.S. Pro Champ. do their planning?


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

What are there like three US riders in the Giro? I saw TeeJay riding his bike around Boulder yesterday. I don't think it's scheduling.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I think DZ would have probably been doing the TT if he weren't injured.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

I haven't looked at the lineup for this year but I was at last year's race. I saw George Hincapie, Dave Z, Tyler Farrar, Fast Freddie, BJM, Tom Danielson, Tejay, and met Ted King and Timmy Duggan. Both TVG and TD really went for the win but Timmy was untouchable that day. 

Duggan and King are both underrated riders but are getting utilized more in Europe. King might be on the TDF start list and Duggan would have raced more in Europe this spring if he hadn't been injured. He will be racing the Vuelta but unfortunately he will likely not have the jersey anymore.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Everyone cried when they raced the US Championships during Labor Day weekend so it was changed to be more in line with the rest of the world although most of Europe's is still a little later, IIRC.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Everyone cried when they raced the US Championships during Labor Day weekend so it was changed to be more in line with the rest of the world although most of Europe's is still a little later, IIRC.


normally the week before tour de france for most if not all of europe (june 20-23 this year). that would not work well either for the US.


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## StillKeen (Oct 4, 2005)

spookyload said:


> ... it would be nice to see the stars and stripes on the shoulders of a pro rider in Europe. ....


100% agree. Many other countries also seem to do the same thing. It would be great if the Grand Tours had twenty or thirty different national champ kits in the peleton. Even if a national champ isn't a GC contender at a Grand Tour, surely they'd still be a good team member to support a GC contender or sprinter.


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## JackDaniels (Oct 4, 2011)

Well wasn't the road race this morning? Can't find results.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

JackDaniels said:


> Well wasn't the road race this morning? Can't find results.


No, I think it's tomorrow. The US nats has always been a little bit under attended but there is usually some pretty good talent duking it out. The Jersey has been worn by Euro based riders the past several years (Levi, Ted King, Matt Busche, Hincapie, Duggan). 

It's tough that some of the better pros are on teams without other Americans. They come and race mercenary style.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm sure riders like Fast Freddie, T Duggan, B King etc, would tell you to go jump in a lake with your "why are there no "real" pros attitude.. Just because you're not on a D1 team, doesn't mean you're not pro..


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mosovich said:


> I'm sure riders like Fast Freddie, T Duggan, B King etc, would tell you to go jump in a lake with your "why are there no "real" pros attitude.. Just because you're not on a D1 team, doesn't mean you're not pro..


Duggan and Ben King _are_ on D1 teams, they just aren't D1 pros. It would have been great to see Phinney, TvG, and Talansky at the front of the race, but it wasn't to be. For the most part it will always be a scheduling issue for US champs, since no one big will do the race the weekend before le Tour and every other date conflicts with something else.

Also, how many big time US pros are there anymore? The Lance generation has basically retired and not too many have taken their place.


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## skinewmexico (Apr 19, 2010)

I asked this in the comments on the race write up on Velonews, and got this answer - 

_The reason for the championship date is because the national championship must be held before a certain date according to UCI rules. In the past when the USA's championship was in Sept, the riders weren't being awarded valuable UCI points. This had a negative effect on the USA's ranking internationally. Which affected our roster for professional world championships, etc.

The majority of European countries have their national professional road and time trial championships during the end of June, right before the Tour de France._


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

kbiker3111 said:


> Duggan and Ben King _are_ on D1 teams, they just aren't D1 pros. It would have been great to see Phinney, TvG, and Talansky at the front of the race, but it wasn't to be. For the most part it will always be a scheduling issue for US champs, since no one big will do the race the weekend before le Tour and every other date conflicts with something else.
> 
> How are they NOT D1 pros??? So I guess to you, if you aren't winning, you aren't pro? What a joke.. So, a average player in baseball that's in the MLB, isn't a pro baseball player, or a guy who isn't a starter in the NFL isn't a pro.. That's just hilarious.. I'd be scared to get your thoughts on women's professional cycling..
> 
> Also, how many big time US pros are there anymore? The Lance generation has basically retired and not too many have taken their place.


You mean the doping generation right??


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

How are they NOT D1 pros??? So I guess to you, if you aren't winning, you aren't pro? What a joke.. So, a average player in baseball that's in the MLB, isn't a pro baseball player, or a guy who isn't a starter in the NFL isn't a pro.. That's just hilarious.. I'd be scared to get your thoughts on women's professional cycling..


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

Mosovich said:


> I'm sure riders like Fast Freddie, T Duggan, B King etc, would tell you to go jump in a lake with your "why are there no "real" pros attitude.. Just because you're not on a D1 team, doesn't mean you're not pro..


Ben King wasn't there today. His brother Ted King was there however. The term D1 isn't something used in cycling BTW unless you are talking about college teams. The term you are looking for is World Tour team.


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## Mosovich (Feb 3, 2004)

I meant T King.. Either way, you get my point...


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

spookyload said:


> Ben King wasn't there today. His brother Ted King was there however. The term D1 isn't something used in cycling BTW unless you are talking about college teams. The term you are looking for is World Tour team.


You know Ben and Ted are not related right?


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> You know Ben and Ted are not related right?


Aren't there also two Ben Kings? CONFUSING!!!!


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

It's Edward King, but he goes by Ted. If you watched TOC, dude was a workhorse for Sagan. I watched the first three laps and he ended up being pack fodder after 15 miles, so I was pleasantly surprised to see him get 7th. The last 250 meters was a real pita, steep downhill into an incredibly sharp left, then a 250 meter sprint to the line.

About 30 minutes before the start the Jelly Belly guys kept practicing that sharp left into the final 250. Seems like they had a plan that worked. I didn't see King or very many other people doing that, but they ran that spot several times and were making note of the hazards there.

What tripped me out is that despite the ladies being fast, when they rounded that corner they all kept to the left side of the road. The men were blazing, coming within 2 feet of the barrier on the far right.


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

The results are posted on VeloNews & USA Cycling, but they're not correct. Pretty sure I was right next to Alexis Ryan for the last 20 minutes prior to the finish of the womens race.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> You know Ben and Ted are not related right?


I do. I met him at a cross race a couple years ago. I was making a slight joke because he gets asked that all the time it would seem and he even makes jokes about being related. While I was talking to him, at least two people came up and asked him how it felt to have a brother who was the national champion.


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## Wile_E_Coyote (Jul 15, 2011)

I find it amusing that the assumption is that the World Tour riders would automatically win the race. I'm sure some of our continental riders would find it amusing too.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Wile_E_Coyote said:


> I find it amusing that the assumption is that the World Tour riders would automatically win the race. I'm sure some of our continental riders would find it amusing too.


Maybe the continental teams should just start with 1-3 riders instead then? would make it a bit more even than the current situation of 7-11 continental riders per team vs 1 radioshack, 1 cannondale, one bmc.


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

You hit it Den Bakker! I didn't see a Cannondale or a RST bike on any caravan support vehicle. Those dudes are left to their own, and the "help" of the neutral support crew...who did a lousy job in Chatt yesterday (see Mara Abbott wheel change fiasco).

Thinking these guys on the big-name World Tour teams that want to really win the U.S. Nationals need to suck up & make some friends in the continental team ranks. There was a big stink over how little support (none) that Duggan & King received from Liquigas last year in Charlotte. No excuses this year...although Cannondale Pro Cycling still has an Italian license, it's still an American company.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Mosovich said:


> How are they NOT D1 pros??? So I guess to you, if you aren't winning, you aren't pro? What a joke.. So, a average player in baseball that's in the MLB, isn't a pro baseball player, or a guy who isn't a starter in the NFL isn't a pro.. That's just hilarious.. I'd be scared to get your thoughts on women's professional cycling..


Chill dude, it wasn't an insult. Duggan or the Kings would tell you themselves that they are mainly domestiques and don't race to win most of the time. 10 years ago, by whatever means they did, Americans had at least 6 racers who were a threat to win a top level race. Are there that many now?


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

On the Mara Abbott rear wheel change problem, shouldn't she have stepped off the bike, like I see the riders in Europe do? Oddly, the brief Shimano neutral support promotional spot that they ran during the coverage showed a Lululemon rider getting her front wheel changed without getting off the bike. Also, I'm wondering if she didn't shift to the smallest cog before stopping, which may have complicated things. Can't find a video of the incident yet but I'm guessing it will be shown frequently as a poster child to riders and mechanics on how _*not*_ to do a wheel change.

Yes, it was surprising that Radio Shack and Cannondale couldn't have at least provided a vehicle, like BMC did. 

Even without numbers, World Tour'ers Bookwalter, Busche, and King were still there in the running at the end. Very glad to see Fast Freddie take the win!


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

moonmoth said:


> On the Mara Abbott rear wheel change problem, shouldn't she have stepped off the bike, like I see the riders in Europe do? Oddly, the brief Shimano neutral support promotional spot that they ran during the coverage showed a Lululemon rider getting her front wheel changed without getting off the bike. Also, I'm wondering if she didn't shift to the smallest cog before stopping, which may have complicated things. Can't find a video of the incident yet but I'm guessing it will be shown frequently as a poster child to riders and mechanics on how _*not*_ to do a wheel change.
> 
> Yes, it was surprising that Radio Shack and Cannondale couldn't have at least provided a vehicle, like BMC did.
> 
> Even without numbers, World Tour'ers Bookwalter, Busche, and King were still there in the running at the end. Very glad to see Fast Freddie take the win!


I watched her wheel change again on DVR. She was OK with everything except not shifting down. Lots of folks will stand over for a rear flat. Especially when you are in a solo break. I slowed and zoomed the wheel when she stopped and her bike was intact. It wasn't till the ShimaNO genious slammed her rear wheel down with his hand that the derailleur hanger broke. You can see it happen. He couldn't get the wheel past the rear derailleur so instead of pulling back on the derailleur like you or I would do he tried hammering on it. Bad plan. He is the one who needs to gets some lesson on wheel changes, not Mara.


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

den bakker said:


> Maybe the continental teams should just start with 1-3 riders instead then? would make it a bit more even than the current situation of 7-11 continental riders per team vs 1 radioshack, 1 cannondale, one bmc.


They did benefit from not having a team there in one instance. They didn't have to go to the front and work to get the break back. Were it not for the Bissel and Bontrager boys, Tom Zirbel would be your new national champion on the road too.


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

Agree 100% Spooky regarding the wheel change. I saw it go down live...was beyond a rookie mistake on the mechanics part. The officials brought the bike over to the finish line. I didn't get a close up look, but it seemed mangled.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

EuroSVT said:


> ...although Cannondale Pro Cycling still has an Italian license, it's still an American company.


Cannondale Company was sold to Canadian conglomerate Dorel Industries five years ago.


Yep; The same company that supplies bikes to Walmart. So Cannondale is now a Canadian company.

Cannondale went belly-up in 2003 and was bought after bankruptcy by Pegasus Partners II, L.P. In 2008 Pegasus Partners II, L.P. sold Cannondale to Dorel Industries.


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

Yeah I'm tracking on their history, just thought that the Cannondale HQ was still here?


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## PDex (Mar 23, 2004)

Duggan didn't receive race support from Saxo Bank this year either; ditto King and Cannondale; ditto Busche from Leopard-Trek.

So what did they do? Two words: Chattanooga mafia.


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## King Arthur (Nov 13, 2009)

They don't show b/c all the races are in Europe, perhaps hold the U.S. championships in Europe and then they will show.


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

BMC was there with a full support crew for 1 rider


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

PDex said:


> Duggan didn't receive race support from Saxo Bank this year either; ditto King and Cannondale; ditto Busche from Leopard-Trek.
> 
> So what did they do? Two words: Chattanooga mafia.


 I would assume Busche got support from the Bontrager squad.


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

There wasn't a spare bike on any roof for Leopard-Trek or Cannondale, so if those guys needed a bike change they would have been riding an Orbea. We all saw the Mara Abbott fiasco with the Shimano neutral support wheel change. I don't get how pro cycling works, but if I was there with a full crew & noticed someone else without support, I'd be more than cool with throwing a spare rig of theirs on the roof.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

EuroSVT said:


> I don't get how pro cycling works, but if I was there with a full crew & noticed someone else without support, I'd be more than cool with throwing a spare rig of theirs on the roof.


which of your own riders would you prefer to leave without a spare?


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## EuroSVT (Sep 15, 2011)

BMC only had 1 rider, but a team car. I was going to say Garmin as well but they had 4 riders & 3 bikes on the roof. Just the way that I am, but if I looked over and saw a world tour rider without anything at all I'd be cool with trying to lend a hand.


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## PDex (Mar 23, 2004)

spookyload said:


> I would assume Busche got support from the Bontrager squad.


Nope.


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## PDex (Mar 23, 2004)

EuroSVT said:


> BMC only had 1 rider, but a team car. I was going to say Garmin as well but they had 4 riders & 3 bikes on the roof. Just the way that I am, but if I looked over and saw a world tour rider without anything at all I'd be cool with trying to lend a hand.



There should be more opportunities next year. Its not just racetime. I know several who were up at 4:00 AM mixing up SKRATCHLabs and filling hundreds of water bottles.


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## misterwaterfallin (Sep 14, 2012)

EuroSVT said:


> BMC only had 1 rider, but a team car. I was going to say Garmin as well but they had 4 riders & 3 bikes on the roof. Just the way that I am, but if I looked over and saw a world tour rider without anything at all I'd be cool with trying to lend a hand.


I'm kind of surprised the 3 of them didn't get together and make their own support vehicle. That might be against the rules as only official team cars can follow the race, but it seems like they could have worked something out.


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

The world tour pros don't really have a chance in the US Championship because they are pretty much on their own. The continental teams have multiple riders and support staff. 

The world tour riders even have to recruit volunteers for feed zones and everything.


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## linateen75 (May 30, 2013)

I think the biggest difference is the professionalism and passion.


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