# Another fake



## Cinelli 82220

Seat tube looks round, no headset cap, no seatpost, no seatpost collar. No "P" on the headtube.

Even the Sky logo is poorly done.

Pinarello Dogma Carbon 60.1 Frameset & Fork 2011 Team Sky Size 51.5 cm | eBay


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## bikerjulio

why don't you report it ?


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## robdamanii

Christ, $500 shipping?


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## PaxRomana

It isn't even the Team Sky color. Another d-bag fraudster.


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## enzo269

completely laughable.. 500.00 shipping too! LOL!!!


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## Juzzy004

bikerjulio said:


> why don't you report it ?


I sent that seller an email via eBay last week, mentioning that if he/she didn't re-list the item as a knock off, fake or replica, that I'd report it to eBay.
Got no reply and no change was made, so the report was submitted. Last I checked though, it had 13 bids at about $960 on it.
I hope it got pulled before some poor, unsuspecting buyer actually paid for it...


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## bikerjulio

looks like it got pulled eventually.


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## AnthonyL88

There are a lot of counterfeit frames being sold on DHgate.com


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## Cinelli 82220

I report every one I see. I don't bother contacting the sellers, tried that and the responses were very nasty. By contacting them you identify yourself, and they threatened to retaliate by ruining my feedback, among other things.

Some of these get pulled and then pop up again a week later. That one with the awful Bora wheels has been reposted several times.


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## rayovolks

*sad...*

"oem" dogma went for $1777

Pinarello oem dogma 60.1 56 cm


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## Cinelli 82220

The pictures in that auction were useless, whoever paid $1700 for that POS is an idiot.


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## rayovolks

my thoughts exactly. his other oem pinarello listing with equally crap photos has a bidder.

fools and their money...


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## eo1bart

I've got an opportunity to buy a new Dogma2 frame for $2,000.00. How can I assure that it is not a counterfeit? From what I've read it is becoming very difficult to tell the difference.
Thanks


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## AnthonyL88

Think about it!! If the price is too good to be true, it must be a fake!! How in the world are you able to get a Dogma 2 frame for 1/3 the price? I got Dogma 2 Di2 frame and it cost me $6400. Do you got pictures? Upload the pictures.


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## eo1bart

Yeah that's why I am a little leery, but the guy claims that he was a bike racer in Italy, and he still has friends that are pro racers there. He says they can get a couple frames a year direct from the factory, and that's how he gets them. I asked him straight out if it was from China or Italy, and he said Italy. Still I'd like to be sure. He has two frames coming next week, so I'd like to know what to look for when I meet him.


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## AnthonyL88

eo1bart said:


> Yeah that's why I am a little leery, but the guy claims that he was a bike racer in Italy, and he still has friends that are pro racers there. He says they can get a couple frames a year direct from the factory, and that's how he gets them. I asked him straight out if it was from China or Italy, and he said Italy. Still I'd like to be sure. He has two frames coming next week, so I'd like to know what to look for when I meet him.


Ask him for some pictures and upload the pictures. So we can all take a look at the frame and let you know.


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## eo1bart

OK when he receives it I'll have him send me some pictures. Thanks


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## Cinelli 82220

*Why not?*



eo1bart said:


> Yeah that's why I am a little leery, but the guy claims that he was a bike racer in Italy, and he still has friends that are pro racers there. He says they can get a couple frames a year direct from the factory, and that's how he gets them. I asked him straight out if it was from China or Italy, and he said Italy. Still I'd like to be sure. He has two frames coming next week, so I'd like to know what to look for when I meet him.


I used to race on Eddy Merckx's Molteni team, and De Rosa and Colnago keep sending me frames too.

/Sarcasm....


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## vladvm

eo1bart said:


> I've got an opportunity to buy a new Dogma2 frame for $2,000.00. How can I assure that it is not a counterfeit? From what I've read it is becoming very difficult to tell the difference.
> Thanks


One way to tell fake is when the fork does not have integrated shape with the frame. those are fake!


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## Bill Bikie

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Seat tube looks round, no headset cap, no seatpost, no seatpost collar. No "P" on the headtube.
> 
> Even the Sky logo is poorly done.
> 
> Pinarello Dogma Carbon 60.1 Frameset & Fork 2011 Team Sky Size 51.5 cm | eBay


Look closely:
-Part of the P can be seen. It's a large head tube.
-There is a seat clamp
-The seat tube is oval. Notice the word Dogma looks as though it were on a flatter surface


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## Cinelli 82220

^ Item no longer available. And no link to original listing.


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## Bill Bikie

Cinelli 82220 said:


> ^ Item no longer available. And no link to original listing.


I'm happy with my Quatro, just thought I'd point out a few things.


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## hoblxblood

what are the disadvantages of a fake? are they made with crappy carbon, or what. I own a cannondale , but reall like team sky and dogma, nice bike, nice team. 

Cheaters piss me off.


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## vladvm

hoblxblood said:


> what are the disadvantages of a fake? are they made with crappy carbon, or what. I own a cannondale , but reall like team sky and dogma, nice bike, nice team.
> 
> Cheaters piss me off.


you have to pay return shipping for replacement only within 2 years of purchase, after that you are out of luck. they have no paint and no serial number, you have to paint yourself or just leave as raw carbon. you have to order headset, cable stop and rear derailleur hanger separately. the frame and fork are built with carbon monocoque construction with toray carbon, sub 18lbs. with nice components. 

exact same geometry of Pinarello Prince that are being passed as Dogma. main disadvantage, you will be frowned upon by people who know genuine Pinarello Dogma. Otherwise 99% of people locally will probably not care because only few can afford the real Dogma and are knowledgeable of the details. you will not be part of the Pinerallo family.


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## AnthonyL88

vladvm said:


> you have to pay return shipping for replacement only within 2 years of purchase, after that you are out of luck. they have no paint and no serial number, you have to paint yourself or just leave as raw carbon. you have to order headset, cable stop and rear derailleur hanger separately. the frame and fork are built with carbon monocoque construction with toray carbon, sub 18lbs. with nice components.
> 
> exact same geometry of Pinarello Prince that are being passed as Dogma. main disadvantage, you will be frowned upon by people who know genuine Pinarello Dogma. Otherwise 99% of people locally will probably not care because only few can afford the real Dogma and are knowledgeable of the details. you will not be part of the Pinerallo family.


Just buying anything counterfeit is bad and classless. You can save your money and buy something you can afford. There are a lot of great bike companies out there making bikes in all price range. No need to go buy a counterfeit bike.


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## vladvm

AnthonyL88 said:


> Just buying anything counterfeit is bad and classless. You can save your money and buy something you can afford. There are a lot of great bike companies out there making bikes in all price range. No need to go buy a counterfeit bike.


when you paint them as Pinarello they become fake and counterfeit. if you keep them raw or customize the paint (i.e. your own paint scheme/name) no problem with that. 

Like these bikes.


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## rayovolks

vladvm said:


>


OPERA is a Pinarello brand so that one is probably an original.


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## AnthonyL88

rayovolks said:


> OPERA is a Pinarello brand so that one is probably an original.


OPERABIKE - bici, bici da corsa, bici da gara, bici da professionisti, bici artigianali, bici fatte a mano, carla pinarello, giovanni pinarello, fausto pinarello, andrea pinarello


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## rayovolks

*back to fakespotting*

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PINARELLO-DOGMA-SKY-EDITION-52-CM?item=190670583002&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7975502166598204396#ht_1287wt_1074


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## derekngo

Looks like the fakes have tear drop seat tube now! It even has a riveted FD clamp! 

I just bought a Dogma. I was looking for these features when I was shopping and now I'm getting that sinking feeling. 

However, mine does have a serial number but what's stopping the fakers from putting a fake number on there too?

What else to look for now? :mad2:

-Derek


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## AnthonyL88

derekngo said:


> Looks like the fakes have tear drop seat tube now! It even has a riveted FD clamp!
> 
> I just bought a Dogma. I was looking for these features when I was shopping and now I'm getting that sinking feeling.
> 
> However, mine does have a serial number but what's stopping the fakers from putting a fake number on there too?
> 
> What else to look for now? :mad2:
> 
> -Derek


Where did you buy it? The best place to buy a Pinarello is from an Authorized dealer.


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## derekngo

AnthonyL88 said:


> Where did you buy it? The best place to buy a Pinarello is from an Authorized dealer.


ebay. I had it shipped from Italy. Hopefully there are no fakes from the place of origin.


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## AnthonyL88

derekngo said:


> ebay. I had it shipped from Italy. Hopefully there are no fakes from the place of origin.


Sorry to say, but there are fake frames and components in Italy. A lot of Italian companies were working with the Police and trying to shut down those factories making the fake products.


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## derekngo

AnthonyL88 said:


> Sorry to say, but there are fake frames and components in Italy. A lot of Italian companies were working with the Police and trying to shut down those factories making the fake products.


Bump...trying to get more post to upload pics.


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## derekngo

derekngo said:


> Bump...trying to get more post to upload pics.


bump again....


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## derekngo

derekngo said:


> bump again....


bump yet again


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## derekngo

derekngo said:


> bump yet again


bump some more


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## derekngo

derekngo said:


> bump some more


bump...sorry people don't know why you need 10 posts to upload pics.


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## derekngo

derekngo said:


> bump...sorry people don't know why you need 10 posts to upload pics.


And 3


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## derekngo

2..........


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## derekngo

derekngo said:


> 2..........


1.....Moderator please remove my previous bumps. I am trying to get people's opinion on my frame purchase. I only have a couple of weeks left to make a dispute, if my Dogma was not as advertised. Thanks for understanding.

-Derek


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## derekngo

Finally!!

For the Dogma experienced people, please look at the photos below and tell me it's a real Dogma (or not). 

As I have said, looking at the fake Dogma that someone posted above doesn't make me feel at ease that mine is legit. I can take more pics of closeups or details. Let me know where to look for. Thanks guys.


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## robdamanii

Take a few photos directly from the side so we can see the HT/fork junction.


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## Juzzy004

Derek,
No need to fear - your frame looks legit. Other things to look out for are the 'Dogma' seat post clamp, being authentic, the headset top cap and cover, all being original Pinarello parts. Your MOST integrated stem and bars also look like the real deal (there are copies of these too).
For piece of mind, you can always make an enquiry to Pinarello directly with the serial number under the BB.
FYI - the Chinarello's out there that I've seen ARE getting harder to spot. They now have internally routed down tube cabling, the seatposts are now aero and Aliexpress are now making a 'Pinarello' headset top cover, below the steerer spacers. Have not seen any yet with FD braze on's with 4 rivets - only 2. These are screws too. Plus, none of the fakes appear to have the signature sparkly Pinarello paint finishes on them.
Hope this makes you breathe a little easier.


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## derekngo

robdamanii said:


> Take a few photos directly from the side so we can see the HT/fork junction.


Hey Rob, thanks for responding. Is this what you mean?


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## robdamanii

Looks pretty solid to me. I could be wrong, but I'd expect that is a genuine frame.

Check the serial number with Pinarello.


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## cda 455

derekngo said:


> Finally!!
> 
> For the Dogma experienced people, please look at the photos below and tell me it's a real Dogma (or not).
> 
> As I have said, looking at the fake Dogma that someone posted above doesn't make me feel at ease that mine is legit. I can take more pics of closeups or details. Let me know where to look for. Thanks guys.




Good looking frames!


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## derekngo

Thanks guys. I think I am breathing easier now. I got scared when I saw that fake with the teardrop seat tube and the riveted braze on clamp. All the fakes I've seen were round tubes and no braze on. 

Before I bought the frame, I did inquire about the serial number through Pinarello but never got a response, even til today! 

I figured with the seat tube and FD clamp features it must be real...and hopefully mine is. But having seen how the fakes look now I could've jump the gun and bought it if I was not told it's a fake.

Rob, could you tell me what is it you're looking for with the headtube/fork to justify that it's real or fake? 

I think I got lucky with this frame so hopefully this will give a head up for unsuspected shoppers to be more observant.


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## Cinelli 82220

Give the seller heck for pulling the top tube cable guide out.

New frames ship with a plastic tube to guide the brake cable. When you remove your cable for whatever reason, thread the tube onto the cable and through the top tube before removing it. It will make replacing it a LOT easier.

Very nice looking frame set!


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## rayovolks

this listing comes with all the boilerplate justifications...

NEW OEM 2010 PINARELLO DOGMA 60.1 FRAMESET


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## hamsey

Cable guides? Just trying to learn how to spot them.


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## Juzzy004

The cable guides, as with any frame that incorporates internal cabling, (usually on the top tube and down tube, but not excluding the chain stay for Di2 frames) are basically short pieces of spaghetti tubing, allowing the inner wired cable to be ran through the frame. Manufacturers insert these during the build and they usually have some tape on each end to stop them accidentally coming out.
Trying to get the inner cable through a frame without these can be like pulling teeth - painstaking work.

So, hence Cinelli's remarks. I'd be pissed too if they weren't in there, but any credible LBS should manage to overcome this problem.


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## derekngo

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Give the seller heck for pulling the top tube cable guide out.
> 
> New frames ship with a plastic tube to guide the brake cable. When you remove your cable for whatever reason, thread the tube onto the cable and through the top tube before removing it. It will make replacing it a LOT easier.
> 
> Very nice looking frame set!


Thanks for the comment. 

The cable guide did come inside the frame. I just removed it when I was cleaning and applying clear protectants. I find it easy to insert it back in because those guides are semi rigid and it just takes a few pokes and it's through. Just have to make sure the guide is curve like the frame before you insert.


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## rayovolks

here we go again...

Every Frame has the LIFE INSURANCE. Make your sagacity choose!!!

Pinarello Dogma 2012 aero, red, black, carbon bike frame + fork + clamp+seatpost


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## eo1bart

The bike came in. What do you think..real or fake?


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## Juzzy004

Sorry to inform you, that frame is NOT real...


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## eo1bart

Thanks...I won't buy it. How could you tell?


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## eo1bart

He claims it's from Italy and gave me these serial numbers: P4851813428722412


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## derekngo

eo1bart said:


> The bike came in. What do you think..real or fake?


I have been studying the diff btwn the real and fakes and I think you have a fake. 

From what I can tell from your photos,

1) for Dogma2 the transition between the downtube and the fork is not right. For a Dogma2 that looks like the 2010-11 Dogmas.

2) the bottom bracket cable guide is generic, not the triangular MOst guide. However, this could be switched out.

3) there is no serial number on the bottom, near the bottom cable guide.

This is what I can tell, having just bought a 2011 Dogma.


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## Cinelli 82220

Most of the Dogma2s follow the same pattern for colors. Pina has all the color schemes on their site.
eo1's frame does not look like any of them. Pretty damning evidence right there.


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## Juzzy004

View attachment 256559
Derek is right. The aero fork on the Dogma2 is different - the one in your photos appears to look like the 2010-2011 model.
The seat post clamp should read 'DOGMA'; the headset cover should be labelled 'Pinarello'; the cable guides under the BB should be MOST and the serial number you stated is not legit.


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## eo1bart

ok thanks guys..I'm won't buy it, and also I'm going to report him to Pinarello USA (Gita)


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## AnthonyL88

Juzzy004 said:


> View attachment 256559
> Derek is right. The aero fork on the Dogma2 is different - the one in your photos appears to look like the 2010-2011 model.
> The seat post clamp should read 'DOGMA'; the headset cover should be labelled 'Pinarello'; the cable guides under the BB should be MOST and the serial number you stated is not legit.


Dogma 2 seatpost


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## Bill Bikie

*What do you mean "the bike came in"*



eo1bart said:


> The bike came in. What do you think..real or fake?


What do you mean "the bike came in" Came in from where? Please...only order from a legitimate distributor. You must have a pinarello dealer in your area, or a shop that can order from Gita, a distributor.


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## eo1bart

Bill Bikie said:


> What do you mean "the bike came in" Came in from where? Please...only order from a legitimate distributor. You must have a pinarello dealer in your area, or a shop that can order from Gita, a distributor.


I was looking for a used Pinarello last month on Craigslist, when I saw the add for the new Dogma2 frame for $2,000.00. I called the guy and he said that it was sold but he had a "friend at the factory" in Italy and that he was getting a couple more frames within two weeks. I was suspicious after reading about counterfeit Pinarello's, so I asked him to send me some photos when the frame came in.
I sent an email to Gita bikes this morning with the info on the guy. Name, address, phone number etc.


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## rayovolks

*Greatkeen RFM201*

PINARELLO DOGMA 60.1 ASYM 60HM1K ROAD BIKE FRAMESET SEATPOST FORK HEADSET CLAMP


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## PaxRomana

Fakes are easily spotted as the Chinese counterfeiters have been unable thus far to replicate the 2012 Pinarello fork and the transition between the bottom of the steerer tube and the frame.


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## southparkcycles

the give away should be the price. A $5500 Dogma costs the dealer a lot more than $2k. Also, even if it is new zero warranty unless it comes from an authorized dealer. I bet these are the same chinarellos that have been going around but with a much better paint job. It did seem that the link to the one on Ebay did have the triangular seat post but the fork is a giveaway for sure. Does the frame pictured above actually have asymetrics in the frame?


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## rayovolks

rayovolks said:


> PINARELLO DOGMA 60.1 ASYM 60HM1K ROAD BIKE FRAMESET SEATPOST FORK HEADSET CLAMP


this thing still sold for $2600! quite a premium for a greatkeen.


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## Cinelli 82220

Ripping off customers like that disgusts me. The seller basically stole a couple of thousand dollars from someone.


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## AnthonyL88

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Ripping off customers like that disgusts me. The seller basically stole a couple of thousand dollars from someone.


I totally agree with you!! I just contacted Ebay customer service and ask them to please contact the buyer about the counterfeit frame he just bought. Hopefully, Paypal can freeze the transaction.


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## rayovolks

Actually if the buyer somehow realized that it is counterfeit that could be a good thing. I believe eBay-PayPal buyer protection would cover it. In the listing the item is presented as a Pinarello with no obvious disclaimers, and in fact tells the viewer to "look up geometry and other mumbo-jumbo on the pinarello site."

Buyer would have to report and file a dispute as a counterfeit. It would be fairly easy to get confirmation of (non)authenticity from Gita or an authorized distributor/LBS.

Google PayPal violin on how they can in fact be overzealous about counterfeits. Use the eBay-PP system back at the scammers!


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## rayovolks

another fake seller

eBay My World: cyclistrock


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## Juzzy004

Have a look at this fu$kstick trying to off load a fake Dogma2! I have reported the wanker to eBay, but don't expect them to do much about it. Any others that have been reported don't seem to get their ad pulled. If anyone pays that for a Chinese copy, they've got rocks in their head!

Pinarello Dogma 2 Frameset - Size 56cm - Brand New | eBay


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## Cinelli 82220

That is shocking^

Not only is the frame obviously fake, he lies about getting it from Primera and posts a bogus receipt!!!

At least he put his name and address in the ad so you know where to serve him with a fraud claim.


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## rayovolks

Cinelli 82220 said:


> That is shocking^
> 
> Not only is the frame obviously fake, he lies about getting it from Primera and posts a bogus receipt!!!


my thoughts exactly! a sophisticated fraud!


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## AnthonyL88

I don't understand why so many people would buy a Dogma or Dogma 2 on Ebay. 99.9% all the Dogma on ebay are fake. The guy stated the frame is a Dogma 2 and just by looking at the fork, it's not a Dogma 2.


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## Bill Bikie

*Maybe it's the real thing*

Yes, there a lot of fakes out there, but what identifies this as a fake? Price unusually high for a fake. The only fishy thing I can see is that the serial no. was not on the invoice. 

So maybe it's the real thing, but is an article of theft. The price is such that one wouldn't think it not legite (3950 British Pounds = $6082 in US dollars). Probably close to what he paid for it, and what it would cost stateside. It's not priced to sell. Don't fakes usually attract buyers who want a Dogma for 50% off?


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## AnthonyL88

The seller stated it was a Dogma 2, but if you look at the frame it's obvious it's NOT a Dogma 2.


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## robdamanii

Bill Bikie said:


> Yes, there a lot of fakes out there, but what identifies this as a fake? Price unusually high for a fake. The only fishy thing I can see is that the serial no. was not on the invoice.
> 
> So maybe it's the real thing, but is an article of theft. The price is such that one wouldn't think it not legite (3950 British Pounds = $6082 in US dollars). Probably close to what he paid for it, and what it would cost stateside. It's not priced to sell. Don't fakes usually attract buyers who want a Dogma for 50% off?


The fork/downtube interface is a dead giveaway that this is a copy.


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## rayovolks

Bill Bikie said:


> Yes, there a lot of fakes out there, but what identifies this as a fake? Price unusually high for a fake. The only fishy thing I can see is that the serial no. was not on the invoice.


-front derailleur is screwed on in 2 places. real ones are fixed at 4 points.
-neco headset & hardware.
-"receipt" does not have a number, and the VAT reg number at the bottom does not appear to match Primera Sports' (as much as I can tell from their website)

and for future visual reference: Giro pro bike: Rigoberto Uran’s Pinarello Dogma 2

compare that with a greatkeen at: GreatKeen RMF201


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## pinarello_fan

I bought my Dogma from Primera, and my receipt doesn't look much like that...


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## Juzzy004

Here's another douchebag, attempting to rob the innocent and less wary...

New Frame Pinarello Dogma 2 2012 Carbon Fiber Bicycle Road Parts Sizes 52cm/ 54 | eBay

Once again, reported to eBay for fraud.


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## Bill Bikie

*Explain please*



Juzzy004 said:


> Here's another douchebag, attempting to rob the innocent and less wary...
> 
> New Frame Pinarello Dogma 2 2012 Carbon Fiber Bicycle Road Parts Sizes 52cm/ 54 | eBay
> 
> Once again, reported to eBay for fraud.


Please explain why you think it's a fake. What is the price in US dollars? Not a enough close-ups for me to really tell. Again no serial no.


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## AnthonyL88

Bill Bikie said:


> Please explain why you think it's a fake. What is the price in US dollars? Not a enough close-ups for me to really tell. Again no serial no.


Well, first of all the guy is advertising it as a Dogma 2 frame and if you look at the frame, it's obvious not a Dogma 2 frame. 

I sent a message to the person selling these FAKE frames and this is what he said.

*Sold Sold all of them very quickly...customer very hapy with the product!!!!! thanks a million*

Anyone who selling a Pinarello Dogma 2 frame should know about the frame he's selling on ebay. It's obvious this guy doesn't know Sh!T about it!!

Also, the people who are buying these frames doesn't know anything either and think they are saving a lot of money, but all they are doing is getting ripped off. Instead of saving a lot of money, they lost a lot of money.

Next time, just go to an Authorized Pinarello Dealer.


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## Juzzy004

Bill Bikie said:


> Please explain why you think it's a fake. What is the price in US dollars? Not a enough close-ups for me to really tell. Again no serial no.


For starters, whilst Pinarello Dogma forks can obviously be removed, they are rarely sold disassembled. These are a threadless press fit and come with a genuine Pinarello cap.
Secondly, the forks are a dead give away. Dogma2 frames have a very unique design with the fork head being integrated into the lower section of the head stem.
The seat post clamp is not genuine. Dogma2 frames have a MOST decal/sticker near the BB on the chain stay.


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## derekngo

Juzzy004 said:


> For starters, whilst Pinarello Dogma forks can obviously be removed, they are rarely sold disassembled. These are a threadless press fit and come with a genuine Pinarello cap.
> Secondly, the forks are a dead give away. Dogma2 frames have a very unique design with the fork head being integrated into the lower section of the head stem.
> The seat post clamp is not genuine. Dogma2 frames have a MOST decal/sticker near the BB on the chain stay.


Also for Dogma2, the fork is tapered from 1.5" at the base of the steerer to 1.25" at the top. It will look like a cone when you see it out of the bike like that. 

At the bottom of the headtube, there should be an aero section that was designed to integrate with the new fork making a seamless transition when the fork is installed.

People are getting ripped off because the didn't do their homework. All the have to do is go to Pinarello's website and study the bike in detail and they should be able to tell.


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## rayovolks

PINARELLO DOGMA 2 FRAMESET FORK AND SEATPOST


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## AnthonyL88

rayovolks said:


> PINARELLO DOGMA 2 FRAMESET FORK AND SEATPOST


Reported to ebay


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## rayovolks

AnthonyL88 said:


> Reported to ebay


Bidding is at $2,325!


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## BacDoc

Less than 40 min left, 28 bids $2777.00!


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## rayovolks

BacDoc said:


> Less than 40 min left, 28 bids $2777.00!


sold for $2,850! wtf

btw, look at the outcome of a similar transaction on a fake frame
2012 Improved Pinarello new aero Dogma2 red full carbon Road bike frame
Did Not Have Item - Issued a refund - Now PayPal has my $$ on HOLD


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## Cinelli 82220

Does that mean Paypal has the buyer's money on hold or the scammer's?

I'd like to see someone take one of these liars to court for fraud. My GF just got scammed over a fake purse. The pics in the listing were of the real one but the purse she received was a peice of junk. 

Obviously EBay can't monitor every single listing but some of these scams are disgusting.


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## Cinelli 82220

Interesting, I just got negged by someone who joined yesterday.

Maybe one of the scammers is now a member here and doesn't like our discussion.


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## robdamanii

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Interesting, I just got negged by someone who joined yesterday.
> 
> Maybe one of the scammers is now a member here and doesn't like our discussion.


That's quite interesting. Could very well be the case.


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## RC28

Bill Bikie said:


> Please explain why you think it's a fake. What is the price in US dollars? Not a enough close-ups for me to really tell. Again no serial no.


Besides what others have mentioned, it is very easy to distinguish by the PINARELLO logo on the downtube. THe original is "blockier" with bigger font and the letters closely spaced, whereas this one is a bit more separated and the letters are "thinner". This one is not. Also , the NECO hardware is a BIG giveaway.

So YES it is a fake.


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## Juzzy004

Another scumbag, attempting to trick buyers into thinking they are purchasing a genuine frame...

PINARELLO DOGMA MOVIESTAR 2011 MODEL | eBay

Reported to eBay.


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## aureliajulia

Thanks for this info guys. I wouldn't order online, but I posted the info on another forum where I'm active. It's easy to get tempted.

Oh, and my LBS is going to order a Quattro for me this week! Quite a departure from the relaxed geometry roadie I've used the last 4 years.

And, while we are at it, is this a fake?


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## RC28

aureliajulia said:


> Thanks for this info guys. I wouldn't order online, but I posted the info on another forum where I'm active. It's easy to get tempted.
> 
> Oh, and my LBS is going to order a Quattro for me this week! Quite a departure from the relaxed geometry roadie I've used the last 4 years.
> 
> And, while we are at it, is this a fake?


Looks legit to me.


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## aureliajulia

RC28 said:


> Looks legit to me.


Thanks! I'm not interested for me, but it was posted elsewhere. 

Besides, hate pink. Ordering black on black!


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## rayovolks

Wrong fork shape, Neco headset, english BB, and listing text that reads like those listings on Alibaba.

Yet these fools ask for $2650 BIN.

Pinarello Dogma 2 60.1 - 2012 aero 56 cm frame,fork,seatpost,clamp,headsets


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## Baeritys

*Is this a Fake?*

I am quite new in the Pinarello World, and was very excited last week when I saw a frame on Ebay. After I read all the nice specs of the Pinarello Dogma, thought I could take a chance. By the way, I was not familiair with fakes and Chinarello's, so I bidded on the frame in an auction. 

I got suspecious after I won the auction, with a low price, much lower than I would thougth the Pinarello was worth. So I checked some specs and found out there were a lot of fakes on Ebay. I asked the Seller and told him, I am only interested in the real brand, don't want to break my frame in a downhill or speed race, but he says it is "Made in Italy and an original one"

I am interested in what the experts on this forum think of it, because I think it is a fake, but have not arguments for it (except the low price).

German Ebay.de, number 180919894299


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## rayovolks

the biggest giveaway is that it is labelled up as a "Dogma 2" but the fork shape is wrong for a Dogma 2.

scroll through the photos here for other details.
2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 - Competitive Cyclist

don't pay. contact eBay customer service and tell them that it appears to be counterfeit and not an original.


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## Baeritys

Thank you for the reply and advice. The details the CC site give are as clear as possible and showed the difference for me. I will certainly not pay and will take further steps


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## Cjcc67

The proliferation of fakes has certainly turned me off from buying a frame online unless from an authorised reseller.


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## Italianrider76

vladvm said:


> when you paint them as Pinarello they become fake and counterfeit. if you keep them raw or customize the paint (i.e. your own paint scheme/name) no problem with that.



I agree.......Painting it and putting Pinarello decals is super classless and lame.
What's everyone's take on this? Is it still uncool to get on of these frames and ride it raw???


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## stitcher

Honestly, at one moment I was thinking about Chinarello, but then I looked into all negative things that it can cause and decided against it, I'm going with FP Quattro.

Now, if you can get original Dogma 2 frameset from Bellati for $3888, why would you pay $2700 for the frame from some shady source? Some people just don't get it.


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## Baeritys

Thank you, I contacted Ebay customer support and reported it. And told the seller, that I found out it is a fake Pinarello. Did not have an answer back. But I am no gonna pay for it, that's for sure.


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## Deeyetoo

yet again another blantant fake
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PRINCE-...t=Road_Bikes&hash=item1c2924eeed#ht_858wt_868

The poor fonts/typeface gives it all away

real Pinarello Prince seatstays here:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech...eviews/pinarelloprince_fpxcarbon08/pn_pr_onda


report it, report it, report it


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## AnthonyL88

I wrote to the seller and he wrote back saying sorry for it,it is a fault.
we have ended it.
thanks.


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## Deeyetoo

Funny how his eBay add clearly says:

*no copy,no fake,no renew or rebulid,100% genuine.*


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## AnthonyL88

DHGATE is just as bad as ebay with counterfeit Pinarello Dogma frames. Got to find a way get DHGate to take down all those counterfeit Pinarello Dogma frame listings.

http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/search.do?act=search&searchkey=pinarello+dogma&catalog=&sus=1#search


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## rayovolks

get your Great Keen "Dogma" for only $2650

Pinarello Dogma 2 60.1 - 2012 aero 56 cm frame,fork,seatpost,clamp,headsets


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## rayovolks

This d-bag has the nerve to say it is "authentic" in the buyer Q&A.

NEW 2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 Aero Carbon Bicycle Frame+Fork+Seatpost+Headset+Clamp


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## Deeyetoo

rayovolks said:


> This d-bag has the nerve to say it is "authentic" in the buyer Q&A.
> 
> NEW 2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 Aero Carbon Bicycle Frame+Fork+Seatpost+Headset+Clamp



LOL that Neco headset is a sure giveaway its fake

reported!!


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## rayovolks

seller has another one listed

NEW 2012 Pinarello Dogma2 Aero 60.1 FULL BLACK Frame+Fork+Seatpost+Headset+Clamp


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## Cinelli 82220

All you can do about these is report them as counterfeits. 
Sooner or later someone is going to buy one and sue EBay over it.
I tried telling a couple of sellers that they were selling fakes---don't do it! They threatened to screw up my own listings. These sellers are career scammers and lowlifes, you don't want any contact with them.


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## Deeyetoo

This POS eBay seller (broda777) has posted another fake Pinarello

This time he's listed his location as Shanghai, China instead of Saskatchewan, Canada

NEW 2012 Pinarello Dogma2 60.1 W5 Frame+Fork Only Size 55cm White/Red | eBay

report this fool


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## rayovolks

Yeah US$3K for a fake. What a d-bag indeed.


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## Juzzy004

Deeyetoo said:


> This POS eBay seller (broda777) has posted another fake Pinarello
> 
> This time he's listed his location as Shanghai, China instead of Saskatchewan, Canada
> 
> NEW 2012 Pinarello Dogma2 60.1 W5 Frame+Fork Only Size 55cm White/Red | eBay
> 
> report this fool


Reported, with this waiting in his eBay inbox:

Hey fu%& stick,
You have been reported to eBay for attempting to deceive innocent buyers into thinking that they are looking at a real Pinarello Dogma2.
You bought this from CHINA at no more than US$800. You are a low life and should be banned from eBay forever...


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## rayovolks

keep reporting the fool. listings are still up.


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## rayovolks

looks like new molds are in.

Flyxii FLX-FR-308P

only a matter of time before fully-marked up ones show up on fleabay.


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## waypastfast

What do you guys think about this one?? Its on ebay.com.

Item number: 230842470127


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## Cinelli 82220

Cut-and paste ad text lstolen from Competitive Cyclist website. $3650 item and they are too lazy to write their own ad?
Stock photo. Too lazy to take a pic?

Underwhelmed by the energy they put into this sale. God help you if you need warranty service. I'd pass.


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## aureliajulia

Real or Fake?


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## robdamanii

aureliajulia said:


> Real or Fake?


Looks real to me.


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## rayovolks

another one of those with sagacity and life insurance!!!

Pinarello dogma 60.1 - 2012 aero white blue silver Road bike framset


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## iKon

Is it mainly the dogmas that get copied or do any fake Paris frames show up as well?


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## Juzzy004

Here's another tossa, trying to sell a FAKE bike... 65.1 too.

Pinarello Dogma 65.1 THINK 2 !!New!! SRAM Rival 2013 | eBay


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## Cinelli 82220

^ Well at least he'll let you see it before paying. His ad sure reads like a lot of doubletalk!


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## jaggrin

Juzzy004 said:


> Here's another tossa, trying to sell a FAKE bike... 65.1 too.
> 
> Pinarello Dogma 65.1 THINK 2 !!New!! SRAM Rival 2013 | eBay


How can it be a Pinarello not made by Pinarello? Why would anyone buy this bike?


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## rayovolks

"clone" = soooo FAKE

Pinarello Dogma 60.1 clone


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## shearwater

rayovolks said:


> "clone" = soooo FAKE
> 
> Pinarello Dogma 60.1 clone


But he admits that it is a clone!......has a $1000 worth of Ultegra on board


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## manivoss

Hi all.. Desperately need some advice/guidance... I've spent all weekend online reading this, and many other threads. I bought a '12 Dogma from a bike shop in Missouri online. I saved a few bucks because it was a shop bike (frameset only), and it looked practically brand new. One of the key selling point was that the frame was never registered, but had a serial number. I've studied all the key details on Dogmas at my LBS, and followed some of the advice from this thread. The frame looks legit, registered the SN with Pinarello and Gita (with no rejection of the SN)... So finally my question...

My local LBS was putting it together and couldn't complete the build because it was missing the BB cable guide, and the Pinarello tube cab (top of the stem).. I have been trying to contact the seller, and he hasn't return my calls. I hoping it is because it is due to the weekend, but I am getting a little worried. I am thinking the guy may have forgotten to ship as he had to disassemble the bike for shipment.. I contacted all the local Pinarello licensed shops hoping they would have an extra one, but they all say the same thing,.... It's such an obscure part specific to Dogmas, and that it is part of the frame accessory kit that should have come with the frame.

The seller was pretty responsive (even returned emails late at night), but now he's gone dark on me. I have sent several emails and called the guy on his cell. I've done some homework on the guy, and it appears that I am dealing with the owner. I sincerely hope he's not returning my calls because it's the weekend.. Anyways, in case he doesn't, how can I get the original frame accessory kit?


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## spas

Try contacting Gita directly - perhaps they can assist...


NORTH AMERICAN HEADQUARTERS
GITA Sporting Goods, Ltd.
12500 Steele Creek Road
Charlotte, NC 28273

BY EMAIL
For questions or comments, email:
[email protected]


BY PHONE or FAX
Dealers: 800.366.4482
Consumers: 800.729.4482
Fax: 704.588.4322


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## DJQuigley

Hello all, 

Can anyone tell if this is a fake? 

http://newyork.backpage.com/SportsEquipForSale/classifieds/EnlargeImage?oid=33184925&image=33184921

Many thanks


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## Cinelli 82220

Doubtful, I think those pics are from an old Ebay auction. You really think you'll find a complete Dogma bike for $2500? Seriously?

Same pics have been used in many online auctions/scams. Google image search or tineye.


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## manivoss

Looks like a fake. The break cable that runs out of the top tube is out of place. Also, anyone that is trying to sell a legitimate Dogma should have no problem sending you the serial number uner the BB. So you can have Gita confirm it. Also, like the other post, no way a fully built dogma is going for 2500. The frame alone is more than 2500


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## AnthonyL88

DJQuigley said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Can anyone tell if this is a fake?
> 
> 2011 Pinarello DOGMA 60.1 road bike tri - new york sports equipment for sale - backpage.com
> 
> Many thanks


You won't be able to buy a complete Dogma bike for $2500, if the bike was authentic. Not even close...

Ask the person to take a real picture with today newspaper with the Dogma. He probably won't do it since those pictures are from another seller. Any legit seller won't have any problem doing it. Beware, if you see a price too good to be true.


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## RC28

@ DJQuigley

Hmmm, I'll be the dissenting vote here. The one* in the pic * does look like the real thing.Here's why.

1) Pinarello logo is correct (it's one of the easiest way to spot a fake)
2) Many MOST branded components (even the fake ones try to keep at least some non OEM parts)
3)Head tube shape is the correct one (not the same as in other fakes).
4) It has aero seat tube AND external gear cables. The fakes either have round seat tube with external cables or aero seat tube with internal cables.
5) You don't even need to ask them for the serial number, just ask them for a picture of the under BB cable guide. The fake ones use a generic plastic piece whereas the originals use a wide, sculpted one.
6) Lettering and font on the ONDA FPX fork is correct.

My vote says yeah, the one* in the PICs* is legit. BUt I wonder if, when you buy it, you'll receive a fake one in the mail.


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## RC28

RC28 said:


> @ DJQuigley
> 
> Hmmm, I'll be the dissenting vote here. The one* in the pic * does look like the real thing.Here's why.
> 
> 1) Pinarello logo is correct (it's one of the easiest way to spot a fake)
> 2) Many MOST branded components (even the fake ones try to keep at least some non OEM parts)
> 3)Head tube shape is the correct one (not the same as in other fakes).
> 4) It has aero seat tube AND external gear cables. The fakes either have round seat tube with external cables or aero seat tube with internal cables.
> 5) You don't even need to ask them for the serial number, just ask them for a picture of the under BB cable guide. The fake ones use a generic plastic piece whereas the originals use a wide, sculpted one.
> My vote says yeah, the one* in the PICs* is legit. BUt I wonder if, when you buy it, you'll receive a fake one in the mail.


Adding to this, one thing that the ad states is that it also includes Campy Bora wheels in addition to the wheels in the pic. Wow, really!?!?! Also, it mentions that it has a full 7900 group. That is not true. It only has 7900 Shifters and derailleurs (maybe chain and cassette). But Cranks and brakes are not 7900.


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## manivoss

Yeah. After a closer look the one in the pic does look real to an 2011. I have 2012 that looks like the top tube cabling exit hole is closer to the stem. Per the other posts, it looks like they stole the pics from an old eBay posting. I guess if you ask for additional pics they could easily find fake photos unless they use a current paper to date it (like the other guys suggested). Bottom line, assuming the bike is real, the original owner paid over 11k for it, and unless its broken or a fake, he's not going to sell it for 2500. When all else fails you should defer to common sense


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## DJQuigley

Many thanks, agree this does not pass the common sense test! 
Onwards!


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## Stefan1509

Is it possible to check SN somewhere online?


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## manivoss

Send an email to Gita


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## stejam

Just out of interest has anyone ever found any of these fake frames that have catastrophically failed?

And pics if so please


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## austke

*Fake Prince of Spain*

Here is another fake, Prince of Spain scheme, Like the Limited Edition (Yellow) Red. and like the overall colour scheme, pity it is fake.


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## Cinelli 82220

Looks like the rear tire rubbing on the seattube?


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## austke

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Looks like the rear tire rubbing on the seattube?


Just had another look at the other pics, but cant get a good enough look to know for certain either way, so yes I would say you are right.


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## djrbikes

Not true. You can get custom paint jobs from the factory. I think they call it My Way.


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## Cinelli 82220

djrbikes said:


> You can get custom paint jobs from the factory. I think they call it My Way.


Yes, most of us know that. The My Way program only allows certain variations though, with a template and specific colours.

The red and yellow bike is still an obvious fake. The Lightweight wheels on it are obvious fakes as well.


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## djrbikes

my bike is a My Way
View attachment 276131
View attachment 276131


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## Cinelli 82220

Very nice, don't see a lot of Corima wheels around here.


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## Hendrik

Real or fake Pinarello dogma 60.1 ??
Thanks for the help

View attachment 276434
View attachment 276435
View attachment 276436
View attachment 276437


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## Juzzy004

Looks like a fake to me. The Ritchey headset cap is wrong, there's no serial number under the bottom bracket, the cable guide under the BB is wrong, the seat post clamp is wrong, and the fact that the FD mount is not graze on us a dead give away.
The paint finish does look good though, including the glitter, which isn't on most fakes.
Ask for the serial number and check it with Gita or Pinarello, if unsure.


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## deepakvrao

Does this FPQuattro look like a fake guys? Mailed Pinarello Germany, and they confirmed the dealer is genuine. Genuine dealer will not take a chance with fakes right?


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## Kumachan

This one looks genuine.


----------



## deepakvrao

Kumachan said:


> This one looks genuine.


Thanks. Just registered the warranty too.


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## AJ88V

deepakvrao said:


> Does this FPQuattro look like a fake guys? Mailed Pinarello Germany, and they confirmed the dealer is genuine. Genuine dealer will not take a chance with fakes right?
> 
> View attachment 287768


One NICE thing about the Quattro (and the Paris) is that the Chinese aren't cloning them! Now if you see a guy on a Dogma, well, ya gotta look at the details to see if it's real!


----------

