# When Time has 4 months lead time, De Rosa big problems with quality control = EPS



## Sacke

That is what happened... 

Ordered a Time, found out that the deliveries of the new RXR Ulteam get more and more delayed all the time... Got sick of waiting. 

LBS got a new De Rosa King 3 straight from the factory in the 2009 white color... but quality control seems to be completely lacking and the finish is terrible. 

Then a new Pinarello Prince came in yesterday, and a frequent bike switcher traded in his Colnago EPS (that I already showed here a couple of months ago). 

I thought, what the heck... It's a heck of a deal to get a 2009 Colnago EPS in december 2008, for the price of a used bike. The frame has no traces of use on it. 

Now the bike is only waiting for its group. Super Record except for the cranks, that are going to be Record due to lack of availability at the French importer.


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## haydos

Congrats!

Which colour is it?


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## fabsroman

See, you should have stuck with the C50 or the Extreme C, and you are calling the other guy an extreme bike switcher. Most people would be jealous of you having bought and ridden a C50, Extreme C, and EPS. I'd say to post pics when you get it built up, but I already saw the ones that you posted for your buddy. Ah, what the heck, post pics of your build too.


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## Sacke

fabsroman said:


> See, you should have stuck with the C50 or the Extreme C, and you are calling the other guy an extreme bike switcher. Most people would be jealous of you having bought and ridden a C50, Extreme C, and EPS. I'd say to post pics when you get it built up, but I already saw the ones that you posted for your buddy. Ah, what the heck, post pics of your build too.


I see your point. I guess at times the thought that a new bike will make one faster is larger than the voice of rational thought. 

The biggest difference between me and my bike switching buddy, is that he is losing money on his switching, while I have so far been able to always get back the invested amount. When there is no monetary loss to weigh the feeling of stupidity, the bike switching is a nice way to keep things feeling new. 

I have at times wondered what kind of void I am trying to fill with the bikes. :idea:


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## Sacke

haydos said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Which colour is it?


The color is AMIT

http://picasaweb.google.com/sakari.kyro/ColnagoEPS 

The first picture is of the bike's current state, the rest as it used to be with the previous owners choice of components.


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## fabsroman

You and I are both wondering what void we are trying to fill with the bikes. About the only bike that made me feel faster, and probably did in fact make me faster, was the purchase of my Cristallo. That was an upgrade from my 1985 steel Mino Denti Master with Super Record and downtube shifters that weighs 22.5 pounds. The Cristallo has Record 10 and comes in at just over 16 pounds with the heavy wheels on it and right at 15 pounds with Zipp 202's. After the Cristallo, the Arte, and Bianchi FG Lite just don't feel faster. Now, the Oval Krono TT bike is much faster. I am hoping that the C50 will make me faster, but I'm not holding my breath.

Good for you on not losing money on the bike swapping. Me, I have yet to sell a bike, and probably never will.


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## fabsroman

I like the Boras. I have only seen them on one guy's bike here, and they were noisy as hell.


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## MERAKMAN

Hi

You are men after my own heart. Buying new bikes all the time.

Like Fabrosman, I don't sell my bikes anymore; after selling my, hardly used, 2001 De Rosa Merak and breaking my heart in doing so..I know why I fill the void (buying bikes)...to mend my broken Merak heart; I loved that bike Now have a replacement for it so happy  

Sacke; congrats on you new puchase, wot a mega ride!  Though I was interested to know why your pal sold his EPS after only two months of ownership? Also, what brought him to replace it with the Prince, a fabulous frame for sure; is it much better than an EPS?? Did he do a comparison between the two and possibly preferred the Prince?


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## Sacke

fabsroman said:


> I like the Boras. I have only seen them on one guy's bike here, and they were noisy as hell.


I had the same problem in the beginning. A friend of mine had the same issue with his Boras too. 

It is very easily fixed though... all you have to do is to take off the protective cap on the side of the hub, tighten the bolt inside 3/4 of a turn, and the noice will go away. 

The issue is the ceramic bearrings settling. Once tightened, the noice completely disappears. 

-- 

Here are some pictures of the ready build. Sorry about the Pinarello... It is the old owners new bike and we wanted to take some group pics.


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## fabsroman

Both bikes look awesome. I'll be ordering my bars this weekend, and that will be the last thing I need. However, I am going to have the bars airbrushed, so that will delay the build a little. Sometimes, perfection takes time.


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## iyeoh

Like a true moron, I got real excited by the EPS above. I went to price it with all the "right" equipment. After all, why bother if its not "built right" with Bora Ultras and Super Record? 

I nearly had a fatal heart attack. It took me a couple of minutes sitting down for my heart rate to recover.

I think its still possible to buy a new economy family car for $15,000, isn't it?


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## fabsroman

But can you buy a Ferrari for $15,000.

Yes, you can buy a new economy family car for $15,000, but it would be almost the entry level car for every manufacturer out there. 11 years ago I bought my Taurus for around $16,000, but it was the base model and did not come with cruise control or power locks. My wife got her Sonata in 2002 almost fully loaded for $18,000. I consider both of those cars to be family cars. With the incentives they are offering right now, you can probably do pretty well with $15,000. However, I cannot imagine toting a family of 5 or 6 around in a Ford Focus or an entry level Toyota, Honda, etc. I guess it is possible, just not fun or probably practical.

By the way, when I was pricing Colnagos 2 years ago I was having a stroke just like you, but I wasn't even thinking about carbon wheels for it then. Instead, I went with the cheap old 1985 Campy Record Strada 36 hole wheels with a Cristallo frame and Record 10 and it still cost me just north of $5,000 with a lot of bargain hunting. You have to shop for bargains.


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## haydos

iyeoh said:


> Like a true moron, I got real excited by the EPS above. I went to price it with all the "right" equipment. After all, why bother if its not "built right" with Bora Ultras and Super Record?
> 
> I nearly had a fatal heart attack. It took me a couple of minutes sitting down for my heart rate to recover.
> 
> I think its still possible to buy a new economy family car for $15,000, isn't it?


Just buy with training wheels such as Neutron Ultras or go 'super euro' and get record hubs - 32 spoke with ambrosio low profile box section tubs- then put Vittoria Pave's on it!:thumbsup: 

Nobody who runs the "rules of the euro cyclist" could ever begrudge you!

Super Record is a must though. As is Deda Zero stem and Newton/Zero100 bar.

You don't need Bora 2's unless you are are 'race fit' (skin folds at less than 8%) and race 'A' grade.

You know you want one!


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## Sacke

haydos said:


> Nobody who runs the "rules of the euro cyclist" could ever begrudge you!


Yes they would.  Too many spacers.  

The story took a bizarre turn. The previous owner of the EPS that bought the Pinarello as a replacement suggested a frame swap. I went for it, so my time on the EPS came to an end after only single ride. 

So now I am riding a "used", one week old, '09 Prince. 

When it comes to pricing, I paid nowhere near 15.000 $ for the bike. I could never afford that... As someone mentioned, bargain hunting is possible, especially when a riding buddy likes switching bikes every 2 months. :thumbsup:


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## fabsroman

Sacke,

It seems as though you like switching bikes every two months now too, just used bikes instead of new. So far, I count a C50, Extreme C, EPS, and now the 09 Prince in less than a year. Do you ever get used to a bike and how it fits before you are on to the next one. LOL

With all this talk about the EPS, I will probably debate it some next year after the 2010 paint schemes come out. If one of those schemes strikes me, I might get the EPS for 2010. Now, I'm just working on finishing up my C50.


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## Sacke

fabsroman said:


> Sacke,
> 
> It seems as though you like switching bikes every two months now too, just used bikes instead of new. So far, I count a C50, Extreme C, EPS, and now the 09 Prince in less than a year. Do you ever get used to a bike and how it fits before you are on to the next one. LOL
> 
> With all this talk about the EPS, I will probably debate it some next year after the 2010 paint schemes come out. If one of those schemes strikes me, I might get the EPS for 2010. Now, I'm just working on finishing up my C50.


I just counted that I just got my 7th bike for the year... Just counting road bikes. On the mountain bike front I am on my 4th bike this year. 

In the order of owning the bikes...

2007 Orbea Orca









2004 Colnago C50









2006 Colnago Extreme C









2008 Pinarello Prince









2005 Pinarello Paris









2009 Colnago EPS (lousy cell phone picture... last picture of the beauty) 









2009 Pinarello Prince









It never meant to be like this... If I hadn't been forced to sell the Orbea Orca, I would most likely still be riding with it. Instead, there has been a lot of changing and I sincerely hope that our finances would bear the sacrifices made to get the EPS (which was swapped for the Prince). 

I would say that the only bikes that I had the chance to get used to were the Orca, the Extreme C and the Pinarello Paris.  

Now I started the acquaintance with the new Prince, and the first ride was promising... Me and my Prince dropped the EPS, and 6 other riders on a long climb on yesterdays ride.  

The Prince is really a beautiful bike when the legs are up for it. The EPS, based on the one long ride with it, is more forgiving and comfortable. 

fabsroman, check out the weightweenies forum. There are several beautiful EPS-builds with lots of pictures.


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## haydos

Spacers....mmmm....what are they???? 


Hey Sacke,

That's quite a collection :cornut: 

Between the c-50 and the EPS, what do you recommend as a training bike? I'm weighing up between the EPS, EP and C-50 as a training bike right now. I'm going to order in PRZA colour on whichever one I end up with. 

One of my mates just got an EPS and he says it is very harsh at the front end compared to some of the quality bikes he's ridden - and he has ridden lots. I can't ride it as it's way too big for me - his plan is to get a c-50 to train on and race on the EPS. 

What do you think?

Cheers!


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## fabsroman

I bought the C50 because my Cristallo isn't the most comfortable bike in the world, even though it is pretty comfortable. I can stand it for about 3 hours, but after that I want off. Don't know if it is because of the butt and hands or because of the legs. LOL

If you can afford 2 bikes, I would definitely go with the C50 for training and another frame for racing. I race on an Arte for crits, a Bianchi FG Lite for road races, and an Oval Krono for time trials. Both of my carbon frames will be for training because I would cry like a baby if I wrecked either of them.


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## iyeoh

About 14 years ago (yes, I'm old), I remember rolling on to social rides all smug and pompous. I reminded everyone that I was on a carbon fiber Colnago!! A C-40. "These are Record ErgoPower levers.. see.. this is how they work..Yes, it says "Carbon".. and the carbon is on the inside only 

"And these... these are Bora wheels.. yes, they are carbon fiber! (never mind that mine lasted 10 months only before they were dented lol)" And I paid.. wow $3,800!!! Hear it again... $3,800!!

I feel sooo old lol 

To anser your question, if you look hard enough, you can find a 400i or a Mondiale T for about $20K that runs. You'll probably need another $20K for the valve work and timing chains lol.. But its possible to buy a V12 FI Ferrari for under $20K  That's a pleasure that I happen to enjoy as well


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## iyeoh

haydos said:


> You don't need Bora 2's unless you are are 'race fit' (skin folds at less than 8%) and race 'A' grade.
> 
> You know you want one!



Yes, I know I need one, even though I look like George Costanza on Seinfeld lol

My fat folds at 80% lol and the only "fit" I have is that of a Fred lol


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## MERAKMAN

Sacke said:


> I just counted that I just got my 7th bike for the year... Just counting road bikes. On the mountain bike front I am on my 4th bike this year.
> 
> In the order of owning the bikes...
> 
> 2007 Orbea Orca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2004 Colnago C50
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 2006 Colnago Extreme C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2008 Pinarello Prince
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2005 Pinarello Paris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2009 Colnago EPS (lousy cell phone picture... last picture of the beauty)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2009 Pinarello Prince
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never meant to be like this... If I hadn't been forced to sell the Orbea Orca, I would most likely still be riding with it. Instead, there has been a lot of changing and I sincerely hope that our finances would bear the sacrifices made to get the EPS (which was swapped for the Prince).
> 
> I would say that the only bikes that I had the chance to get used to were the Orca, the Extreme C and the Pinarello Paris.
> 
> Now I started the acquaintance with the new Prince, and the first ride was promising... Me and my Prince dropped the EPS, and 6 other riders on a long climb on yesterdays ride.
> 
> The Prince is really a beautiful bike when the legs are up for it. The EPS, based on the one long ride with it, is more forgiving and comfortable.
> 
> fabsroman, check out the weightweenies forum. There are several beautiful EPS-builds with lots of pictures.



Sacke you are my new Hero! 

I have day dreamt of all your bikes at one time or another AND you look like you live in Italy!!? Arggh! I want to live in Italy and have your bikes!! 

Btw How did you find the ride of Pinarello alloy Paris (am guessing thats not you riding it as frame looks smaller than others?) I nearly bought one a couple of years back, but bought a De Rosa King X Light. Also how was your Orca, thats a fine looking machine too?

One other thing I hope you can clear up for me. What happened to your 08 Prince (in team colours) and was it exactly the same frame as the 09 model?


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## fabsroman

You think you are old, I remember 20 years ago when Kestral and Look came out with their carbon fiber frames. I was 16 years old and there was no way I could afford those frames, and my parents had just paid for my steel Italian frame the year before so they weren't going to spring for a grand for a carbon frame. My 2006 Cristallo was my next bike after that 1985 Mino Denti, and the Cristallo is the first bike I have ever had with indexed shifting. Until 2006, I had no clue that they were also making wheels out of carbon fiber.

You want to talk about being old?


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## fabsroman

Sacke doesn't live in Italy, but I cannot remember where he said he lived. Maybe Finland. I am also willing to bet that is him riding the 08 Pinarello. Obviously, none of the bikes pictured were "awesome" with maybe the exception of the 09 Pinarello because he swapped all the others for other bikes. LOL


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## MERAKMAN

iyeoh said:


> About 14 years ago (yes, I'm old), I remember rolling on to social rides all smug and pompous. I reminded everyone that I was on a carbon fiber Colnago!! A C-40. "These are Record ErgoPower levers.. see.. this is how they work..Yes, it says "Carbon".. and the carbon is on the inside only
> 
> "And these... these are Bora wheels.. yes, they are carbon fiber! (never mind that mine lasted 10 months only before they were dented lol)" And I paid.. wow $3,800!!! Hear it again... $3,800!!
> 
> I feel sooo old lol
> 
> To anser your question, if you look hard enough, you can find a 400i or a Mondiale T for about $20K that runs. You'll probably need another $20K for the valve work and timing chains lol.. But its possible to buy a V12 FI Ferrari for under $20K  That's a pleasure that I happen to enjoy as well


Is that true that older Ferrari's need engine rebuilds? Its a passion of mine too, but not actually taken the leap yet...


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## Sacke

MERAKMAN said:


> Sacke you are my new Hero!
> 
> I have day dreamt of all your bikes at one time or another AND you look like you live in Italy!!? Arggh! I want to live in Italy and have your bikes!!
> 
> Btw How did you find the ride of Pinarello alloy Paris (am guessing thats not you riding it as frame looks smaller than others?) I nearly bought one a couple of years back, but bought a De Rosa King X Light. Also how was your Orca, thats a fine looking machine too?
> 
> One other thing I hope you can clear up for me. What happened to your 08 Prince (in team colours) and was it exactly the same frame as the 09 model?


Merakman... I could NEVER afford to have all of the bikes!!! I have enough headache to pay for one at a time. At the moment, I only own the 2009 Pinarello Prince. 

I don't live in Italy, but in France. The Orca was my road rig when I still lived in Finland. We (me and my french wife) moved to Nîmes, France in May this year. There is a Colosseum-like arena in several French cities i.e. Nimes and Arles, and if another post in another forum is trustworthy, another one in Verona, Italy. 

It is me riding the alloy Paris as well.  The frame is a 54cm classic frame, but it might look smaller due to actually having a rider on the bike. 

The ride is nice and the frame is stiff, but it is much less responsive and much more uncomfortable than basically any carbon fiber frame. It was sort of heavy too... 7,8kg with the Boras, carbon seat post, carbon handlebars etc. 
My new Prince is 6,7kg and much more sophisticated design, and it shows. The difference in actual speed between the i.e. Extreme C and the Pinarello Prince might not be that big, but when comparing the ride of the Paris and the Prince, the leaps of development are felt right away. 

The Orca was my first ever "real" road bike. It was the bike that made me start appreciating road cycling as I do today. If I hadn't sold it to finance our move to France, I would probably still be riding it.


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## Sacke

Oh yeah... forgot to tell about the 2008 Prince. It was the same frame, only different color. 

Someone offered me 4800 € for the bike, and as I had paid 4000 € for it, I thought a 20% direct profit was a nice enough to let it go after having it for only 2 weeks.


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## bertoni

MERAKMAN said:


> Is that true that older Ferrari's need engine rebuilds? Its a passion of mine too, but not actually taken the leap yet...


With your name, you should be looking at a used Maserati Merak! It was basically the same car as its big brother, the Bora, with the V6 instead of the V8. With styling by Giugiaro, it was a very striking automobile.

Still, there is nothing quite like a classic Ferrari with styiling by Pinanfarina. Sex on wheels.


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## bertoni

Isn't the top tube longer on an equivalent sized Pinarello, or did you take that into account and size down?

Both are gorgeous bikes, but I would fit better on the Nag.


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## iyeoh

fabsroman said:


> You think you are old, I remember 20 years ago when Kestral and Look came out with their carbon fiber frames. I was 16 years old and there was no way I could afford those frames, and my parents had just paid for my steel Italian frame the year before so they weren't going to spring for a grand for a carbon frame. My 2006 Cristallo was my next bike after that 1985 Mino Denti, and the Cristallo is the first bike I have ever had with indexed shifting. Until 2006, I had no clue that they were also making wheels out of carbon fiber.
> 
> You want to talk about being old?


I've got you beat with the old age  I was a junior in college when LeMond took Alpe d' Huez in front of Hinault. I had to have a Look KG96 myself. When I was 16 years old, the carbon frame of choice was an Alan, and then the Vitus, which might as well have been cooked spaghetti. I was very lucky as a teen to be riding steel SL and SLX Colnagos and Nuovo/Super Record. I started the Italian bike craze with a Cinelli, then De Rosa, then a string of Colnagos.

Old? I started riding before Eddy retired. That's how old I am


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## fabsroman

You sound like the guys that were working in the bike shop I worked summers at. It was in College Park, Maryland. Almost all the sales guys were college guys and I was 14 and 15 riding my bike to work. LOL

The Mino Denti I got was about $200 cheaper than a Colnago. I believe the Denti was $450 and the Colnago was around $650. $200 back then was a good amount of money. The bike is decked out with Super record throughout, with the exception of the brakes which were Modolo and the levers which were Dia Compe aero levers. Even the wheels were Campy Victory Strada rims laced to Super Record hubs with DT spokes. Oh yeah, I swapped the pedals for Looks. I had always wanted a Colnago, and finally got one in 2006. Now, I'm on my 5th with the C50. That will probably be the last one for a little while.

When Lemond took Alpe d'Huez in front of Hinault, I think I was 14 because I believe that was 1985. Could be wrong and it might have been 1986, so I would have been 15. Sounds like you have 6 or 7 years on me.


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## iyeoh

MERAKMAN said:


> Is that true that older Ferrari's need engine rebuilds? Its a passion of mine too, but not actually taken the leap yet...


Its not true in all instances. Special attention needs to be paid to the precious 3.0L and 4.0L V12s. The 1990s Testarossa reportedly needs TLC as well. You usually need to be wealthy to maintain those anyway, so the incremental expense usually is not a problem.

Rebuilds are not necessary, but usually you need to pay attention to the timing chains. You understand what happens if a timing chain is worn and then it slips. Basically, the whole engine goes kaput. Valve adjustments may be necessary, depending on how the cars are driven. 

You know how people love their cars and keep them as garage queens? They boast that the cars are 20 years old and have 2k miles on them? Those often spell trouble, If you don't drive a car, gaskets and seals dry out and rot. The car will leak like an old garden faucet.

The trouble with Italian cars (like German cars) is that they are well engineered. This means that they are shoehorned into the engine bay. You have to take out lots and lots of stuff to get to what you want, and so its a mess. That costs a lot in labor.

The easiest models to own are really the popular 80s and 90s V8s. Most people like the V8s, but some die hards believe that Ferraris should only be V12s, and hence the expense. I love my 355 F1 GTS. I'll admit that I'm more of a German car fan.


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## MERAKMAN

iyeoh said:


> Its not true in all instances. Special attention needs to be paid to the precious 3.0L and 4.0L V12s. The 1990s Testarossa reportedly needs TLC as well. You usually need to be wealthy to maintain those anyway, so the incremental expense usually is not a problem.
> 
> Rebuilds are not necessary, but usually you need to pay attention to the timing chains. You understand what happens if a timing chain is worn and then it slips. Basically, the whole engine goes kaput. Valve adjustments may be necessary, depending on how the cars are driven.
> 
> You know how people love their cars and keep them as garage queens? They boast that the cars are 20 years old and have 2k miles on them? Those often spell trouble, If you don't drive a car, gaskets and seals dry out and rot. The car will leak like an old garden faucet.
> 
> The trouble with Italian cars (like German cars) is that they are well engineered. This means that they are shoehorned into the engine bay. You have to take out lots and lots of stuff to get to what you want, and so its a mess. That costs a lot in labor.
> 
> The easiest models to own are really the popular 80s and 90s V8s. Most people like the V8s, but some die hards believe that Ferraris should only be V12s, and hence the expense. I love my 355 F1 GTS. I'll admit that I'm more of a German car fan.



Ooh! I get very excited when I hear that someone owns a Ferrari, you have just been promoted to mega idol status! Its just the child in me that still yerns for such a wonderful machine. As a child, my next door neighbour had a red Ferrari 308GTB and a blue Dino! That did it for me..Ferrari man for life (although love the new Gallardo Lambo ) 

I know this is a bike forum, so please bear with us anyone reading this, but I have to ask, how does the 355 go; what are the driving sensations? Very fast I should imagine?:idea: 
Also whats your dream German car?


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## iyeoh

MERAKMAN said:


> Ooh! I get very excited when I hear that someone owns a Ferrari, you have just been promoted to mega idol status! Its just the child in me that still yerns for such a wonderful machine. As a child, my next door neighbour had a red Ferrari 308GTB and a blue Dino! That did it for me..Ferrari man for life (although love the new Gallardo Lambo )
> 
> I know this is a bike forum, so please bear with us anyone reading this, but I have to ask, how does the 355 go; what are the driving sensations? Very fast I should imagine?:idea:
> Also whats your dream German car?



We shouldn't contaminate a bicycle forum 

Sign up at www.ferrarichat.com You will get more information and owners than you can possibly handle. Don't blame me if it gets obnoxious and get nauseated by their collections  And you thought Colnago owners have sick collections!! I think a guy over there has an Enzo *and* various Ferrari-Colnagos and Ducatis, shown together with the Enzo  {incidently, that was the mandatory bike content}


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## MERAKMAN

iyeoh said:


> We shouldn't contaminate a bicycle forum
> 
> Sign up at www.ferrarichat.com You will get more information and owners than you can possibly handle. Don't blame me if it gets obnoxious and get nauseated by their collections  And you thought Colnago owners have sick collections!! I think a guy over there has an Enzo *and* various Ferrari-Colnagos and Ducatis, shown together with the Enzo  {incidently, that was the mandatory bike content}



I agree about the forum content, thanks for the website I'll check that out.


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## merckxman

*Yes, there is a coliseum in Verona*

Here is a photo of a guy with his old BARTALI in front of the Verona coliseum. When I saw your photograph I thought it was taken in Verona! but I could tell that the street surface in front is a bit different. 



Sacke said:


> I don't live in Italy, but in France. The Orca was my road rig when I still lived in Finland. We (me and my french wife) moved to Nîmes, France in May this year. There is a Colosseum-like arena in several French cities i.e. Nimes and Arles, and if another post in another forum is trustworthy, another one in Verona, Italy.


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