# That cable-breaking-in-the-shifter thing...



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Anyone that's been on this forum for a while knows that I rarely start a thread, the vast majority of my posts are answering questions and being an opinionated jerk. But, seeing as how this subject has come up recently and people have widely varied thoughts on the matter, here's what I'm dealing with currently. 

This bike was new in May. The owner is a Cat 2 masters road racers, probably averages 6-8000mi a year. He brought his D/A 9000 bike in yesterday w/ a 'shifting problem'. I didn't take it in, one of my co-workers did and he figured it was a broken cable. 

I put the bike in my stand this morning and sure enough...rear derailleur cable was broken in the shifter. Not a big deal, it's pretty easy although somewhat time consuming to remove them from the new style levers. To be clear, there was no fraying on the brake cable, but the coating was toast and it had to come out anyway. The cables were the 'new' polymer coated fancy schmancy ones. See the attached photos and you'll see 2 things...the polymer is pretty shredded and the cable frayed badly then broke. 

Overview of cables w/ coating










Close up of derailleur cable/coating










Same of the brake cable










2 shots of the cable end still in the shifter



















The head of the cable after removing it from the shifter










Discuss...not there is anything to really talk about, it's pretty clear what happened and how little time/mileage it took for it to fray.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

is that the "superior" Shimano coated cables?

My Jagwire cables are coated with its teflon-whatever coating... some sort of dipped in coating... so at least I'm confidence I'm won't see that on my bike


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Ask him how long ago he noticed his shifting was getting crappy.
I imagine that polymer "gunk" hand to have been causing drag and slow shifting.

I've never used the polymer coated cables. Always thought something like that could/would happen.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

Shimano's design with the pulley across the lever requires a small pulley. So the cable is going to break. I go through rear shifter cables roughly every 3k miles on my 7800 bikes. I shift a lot. On my Red equipped bike I have changed the cables yearly even though they don't look worn

It looks like they improved access to the cable and mechanism on 9000. Handy if the cable fully breaks and drops bits into the shifter.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

It took a while for him to figure out it was something that couldn't be adjusted. In the mean time, snap. The new 11 speed shifters are MUCH easier to remove cable heads from, you remove 1 screw and then 2 covers come off allowing easy removal. 

The one thing that blows me away is how much these silly cables cost. MSRP for shift cables/housing set is $55.99?!?  Are you freaking kidding me?


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Is this some sort of guerrilla marketing for DI2 with hydraulic brakes?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Q: Is a coating necessary to prevent the cables from being worn/fraying? If so, the whatever is being used for the coating wasn't up to the task, at least on this cable set.

As a retired materials guy, I'd be wondering what polymer was used for the coating. It looks like it fails by fibrillating, which makes me suspect it might be an LCP (e.g. Vectra).


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

No. The coating is only there to help the cable because of tight bends it has to encounter with today's setups. It's not there to protect the cable or anything, it's just for friction at bends.

It being all frayed and such has zero impact on anything that I'm aware of. It's not failing in any sort of way, this is how it is. When scraped away, it frays off. Shimano says there's no worry about that happening.

About the cable snapping in the shifter, well this an old issue. It's about the design of the shifters and like posted above it's about guaranteed to happen eventually. And also like posted Shimano knows this and has made it as easy as they can to replace the cable.

I don't see anything at all out of the ordinary or that is cause for concern here.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

DrSmile said:


> Is this some sort of guerrilla marketing for DI2 with hydraulic brakes?


We have a winner!!!:thumbsup:



ibericb said:


> Q: Is a coating necessary to prevent the cables from being worn/fraying? If so, the whatever is being used for the coating wasn't up to the task, at least on this cable set.
> 
> As a retired materials guy, I'd be wondering what polymer was used for the coating. It looks like it fails by fibrillating, which makes me suspect it might be an LCP (e.g. Vectra).


No, it's just a friction reducing thing. You can't (at least I can't) expect a coating to keep the actual structure of the cable from fatiguing, right? No matter how smooth the outside of the cable is, the strands will still fatigue and break from exceeding their cycle limit, correct?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

So what is a reasonable expected lifetime for these cables?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> No, it's just a friction reducing thing. You can't (at least I can't) expect a coating to keep the actual structure of the cable from fatiguing, right? No matter how smooth the outside of the cable is, the strands will still fatigue and break from exceeding their cycle limit, correct?


Correct. My thinking was the new coating (vs. PTFE) was being used to reduce wear/tear on the cable as a solid lubricant. It would take a very unusual polymer to do that, enduring better than the underlying steel.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

Bike Test Reviews | CABLESETS ? Part 4: SHIMANO BC-9000

So it says... the polymer wrap traps lube better


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> It took a while for him to figure out it was something that couldn't be adjusted.


I've had enough start fraying on me to learn the symptoms: shifting gets erratic in the middle cogs. Not every time, just some times, it won't shift when I move the lever, then will double shift if I move the lever again. Usually starts on downshifts.

I've only had one FD cable go and that just broke clean in half when I was shifting to the big ring. No warning.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> No. The coating is only there to help the cable because of tight bends it has to encounter with today's setups. It's not there to protect the cable or anything, it's just for friction at bends.
> 
> It being all frayed and such has zero impact on anything that I'm aware of. It's not failing in any sort of way, this is how it is. When scraped away, it frays off. Shimano says there's no worry about that happening.
> 
> ...


I never meant this as a 'hey, look what I found' type of post, but more of a 'see, I told you this will happen' for the guys that say they have had cables/housing for 3 years and everything is 'just fine'. I can't imagine that having the polymer coating coming off like that in high friction areas has 'zero impact'. It has to clog up in the housing liner at least a little, I'd also consider that to be a failure of the polymer...it's supposed to be on the cable, not falling off and clogging up the housing. It's definitely not out of the ordinary, it happens all the time, nor is it cause for concern...it's just an advisory post for people on here that think it won't happen. I figured since I had such a perfect example to post about that I would. 
I do agree that Shimano has made progress in making it pretty easy to replace the cable on the newer shifters. MUCH better than the previous edition, nearly as easy as the 7700.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> Discuss...not there is anything to really talk about, it's pretty clear what happened and how little time/mileage it took for it to fray.


1. Cables fail like that due to fatigue going around tight bends like the shifter drum

2. More shifting means failures in fewer miles. I ride tight cassettes, shift like I have ADHD for metronomic cadence, and got 4000-5000 miles out of my right pointy-hood Campagnolo ergo lever shift cables.

3. It's worse with newer shifters that have a 90-degree turn built into the lever body. I get 2500 miles out of OEM right Campagnolo Ultrashift shift cables.

4. Shifting to smaller cogs gets noticeably sluggish and/or takes reduced cable tension before the cable breaks all the way. You just need to pay attention.

5. Old-fashioned unlined housings seemed to last almost indefinitely with the rear loop gunking up first; new fangled plastic lined housings seem to make it about 5000 miles for me before the section under the bar tape goes high-friction with the same symptoms as a frayed cable.

6. A bent hanger or derailleur cage which ultimately leads to a broken derailleur in your spokes is another problem which resolves with less cable tension, so you really want to see what's happening and fix it.

7. It's super easy to check. Shift into your big cog, stop cranking, shift to the small cog to make slack, free the rear housing, and push the excess cable through the shifter. You can flex the cable to look for broken strands if it's not yet obvious and see how freely it moves in the housing.

This is what 2637 miles of wear looks like for me - cable flexed to reveal all the broken strands, there was only one showing when I pushed it out of my shifter to check because I noticed sluggish shifts to the next smaller cog and needed to reduce tension.









View attachment 303215


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Drew Eckhardt said:


> 1. Cables fail like that due to fatigue going around tight bends like the shifter drum
> 
> 2. More shifting means failures in fewer miles. I got 4000-5000 miles out of my right pointy-hood Campagnolo ergo lever shift cable.
> 
> ...


^ Yep, all of this ^


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> Anyone that's been on this forum for a while knows that I rarely start a thread, the vast majority of my posts are answering questions and being an opinionated jerk. But, seeing as how this subject has come up recently and people have widely varied thoughts on the matter, here's what I'm dealing with currently.
> 
> This bike was new in May. The owner is a Cat 2 masters road racers, probably averages 6-8000mi a year. He brought his D/A 9000 bike in yesterday w/ a 'shifting problem'. I didn't take it in, one of my co-workers did and he figured it was a broken cable.
> 
> ...


Happened to me on my 6800 after about 4,000 miles, which is very similar in design to the 9000. I've ridden my 6500 for over a decade and the closest I came to something like this was stretched cables which I finally replaced a few months ago. Big fan of the 6800 but this is a troubling item, and I have not heard Shimano address the issue. If they don't address it and it recurs I may entertain switching to Campy. Nine months of the year I frequently go out on weekly century rides and I not want to worry about cables snapping.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

I had the 9000 cable fray and break inside the rear shifter too. After consulting Shimano they warrantied a replacement entire right lever. They would not warranty the left side since it did not break but Im certain the same issue exists but I just shift so much less on the FD. This was back in May '14.


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## Drew Eckhardt (Nov 11, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> It took a while for him to figure out it was something that couldn't be adjusted. In the mean time, snap. The new 11 speed shifters are MUCH easier to remove cable heads from, you remove 1 screw and then 2 covers come off allowing easy removal.
> 
> The one thing that blows me away is how much these silly cables cost. MSRP for shift cables/housing set is $55.99?!?  Are you freaking kidding me?


It's consistent with $100 cassettes.

Of course, the right shift cable wears fastest so you don't need to replace a whole set, and inner fails before the outer so you can replace it separately. If you're taking the trouble to drive to a shop and paying for labor you might as well replace cable and housing at the same time; although as a DIY person it's super convenient to just replace the cable without even unwrapping the bar tape and only deal with the housing on alternate replacements.

Shimano brand PTFE SIL-TEC cables can be found for $8 each in the UK.

Shimano Road-MTB PTFE SIL-TEC Inner Gear Cable | Chain Reaction Cycles

A 10M roll of SIS-SP41 housing is $24 which is $0.72 a foot (domestic this time).

Shimano SIS SP41 Gear Housing 4mm x 10M For 1.2mm Cable Black

and other brands have less expensive PTFE coated cables

Sunlite Shift Cables - 1.1 x 2000 (79), Stainless, PTFE, for Shimano/Campagnolo


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

mimason said:


> I had the 9000 cable fray and break inside the rear shifter too. After consulting Shimano they warrantied a replacement entire right lever. They would not warranty the left side since it did not break but Im certain the same issue exists but I just shift so much less on the FD. This was a little over a year ago.


My issue was on the right as well. I assume it's due to the increase use of the RD.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Weird, I've never had this happen to my shifter cable. Mine shifts perfect all the time. Oh, that's right, I run Sram.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

DrSmile said:


> Is this some sort of guerrilla marketing for DI2 with hydraulic brakes?


My first thought as well, but what do I know


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> Happened to me on my 6800 after about 4,000 miles, which is very similar in design to the 9000. I've ridden my 6500 for over a decade and the closest I came to something like this was stretched cables which I finally replaced a few months ago. Big fan of the 6800 but this is a troubling item, and I have not heard Shimano address the issue. If they don't address it and it recurs I may entertain switching to Campy. Nine months of the year I frequently go out on weekly century rides and I not want to worry about cables snapping.


Replace them every 6 mos and you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Welcome to 2015. 


And 11 speed. 



Newer is always better, hey?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> The new 11 speed shifters are MUCH easier to remove cable heads from, you remove 1 screw and then 2 covers come off allowing easy removal.





Trek_5200 said:


> Big fan of the 6800 but this is a troubling item, and I have not heard Shimano address the issue. If they don't address it and it recurs I may entertain switching to Campy.


They did address it. See cx's post above. They made it easier to repair the failure... rather than do something to prevent the failure.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

I've gone about 6k miles (about 2 years at the time) before replacing cables on my 6700 bike. 
Started hearing these horror stories of cables breaking in the shifter and now change them annually, about 3.5k miles.
I consider it a small price to pay for not having to deal with sram.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

tlg said:


> They did address it. See cx's post above. They made it easier to repair the failure... rather than do something to prevent the failure.


That's not really addressing a flawed design.

Though, maybe they improved it on the 105, like on Di2. The DA had some issues, then they improved on the Ultegra version


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ibericb said:


> So what is a reasonable expected lifetime for these cables?


If you're asking about the breaking inside the shifter issue it's not unique to 'these cables'. It's the shifters.

When I had one break it was at about 7000 miles. The next issue I caught some minor fraying inside so didn't have to deal with it being snapped off and that was somewhere around 6k. I think that's farily consistant with when most people break them and have fraying but of course shifting habits and probably varied cable tension would be factors.

You definitely want to replace them before there's a problem though. I'd guess 4k is probably a good conservative time to do that. Sometimes it's no big deal to replace them post snap off but if little bits of frayed cable make thier way into the works it is a big deal and can kill the shifter so definitly don't wait around until you 'need' to replace them.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> If you're asking about the breaking inside the shifter issue it's not unique to 'these cables'. It's the shifters.
> 
> When I had one break it was at about 7000 miles. The next issue I caught some minor fraying inside so didn't have to deal with it being snapped off and that was somewhere around 6k. I think that's farily consistant with when most people break them and have fraying but of course shifting habits and probably varied cable tension would be factors.
> 
> You definitely want to replace them before there's a problem though. I'd guess 4k is probably a good conservative time to do that. Sometimes it's no big deal to replace them post snap off but if little bits of frayed cable make thier way into the works it is a big deal and can kill the shifter so definitly don't wait around until you 'need' to replace them.


Thanks! I wasn't previously aware of this problem, but after some searching it appears it is farily widespread, and hits both the 9000 and 6800 shifters about equally. At least that's what other on different sites/forums seem to be experiencing. Some are saying ~3500 miles. Of course it will probably vary based on use and frequency of shifting.

There is/has been quite an uproar over this, and so far Shimano seems rather indifferent. According to some Shimano released a 9001 updated version in 2013 that didn't really improve the problem. 

I will now be keeping a much closer eye on my 6800 shifters.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

tednugent said:


> That's not really addressing a flawed design.


Depends on your point of view. If you're selling expensive cables, they addressed it really well.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ibericb said:


> Thanks! I wasn't previously aware of this problem, but after some searching it appears it is farily widespread, and hits both the 9000 and 6800 shifters about equally. At least that's what other on different sites/forums seem to be experiencing. Some are saying ~3500 miles. Of course it will probably vary based on use and frequency of shifting.


From what I gather nothing has changed as far as this topic goes but I should have specified that my comments were based on experience with 6700 and 7900.


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## mimason (Oct 7, 2006)

FWIW, I think mine frayed around 5-6k miles. I didn't experience a breakage but just the fraying. It was noticeable in shifting there was a problem so I wouldn't expect a complete failure before signs manifested. Im curious in CX's issue above if the rider ignored shifting problems for a while........

Also, since Shimano replaced the shifter I was told they changed the design to address this but I can't confirm this.

For clarification this should also only be a potential problem with mechanical not electric if this was not already clear enough.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

mimason said:


> FWIW, I think mine frayed around 5-6k miles. I didn't experience a breakage but just the fraying. *It was noticeable in shifting there was a problem so I wouldn't expect a complete failure before signs manifested.* Im curious in CX's issue above if the rider ignored shifting problems for a while........
> 
> Also, since Shimano replaced the shifter I was told they changed the design to address this but I can't confirm this.
> 
> For clarification this should also only be a potential problem with mechanical not electric if this was not already clear enough.


Yes, there were signs before the snap when I had it happen. However they were minor enough (could still shift just not as smooth) to write off as ordinary shifting issues so I addressed it by messing with cable tension, thought I might have had a bent hanger, replace cassette, chain ect. 
Now I know to check the cable but there's probably a lot of people out there who will treat it like ordinary shifting in need of adjustment until it's too late. If I remember correctly it was only a few weeks between not so great shifting and snap.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

tlg said:


> Depends on your point of view. If you're selling expensive cables, they addressed it really well.


From shimano's accountant point of view, they fix is "good"

Others, it consumers, maybe shimano's engineers, etc....may think otherwise

May drive some people to SRAM


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Definitely not an issue with di2.  But seriously, in defense of shimano, they are responding to consumer marketing trends ( aero means hiding cables, which causes sharper bends), easier shifting needs lower friction. Engineering in this case prioritizes these considerations over longevity.
But really, they want you on di2.........


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

mimason said:


> FWIW, I think mine frayed around 5-6k miles. I didn't experience a breakage but just the fraying. It was noticeable in shifting there was a problem so I wouldn't expect a complete failure before signs manifested. *Im curious in CX's issue above if the rider ignored shifting problems for a while........*
> 
> Also, since Shimano replaced the shifter I was told they changed the design to address this but I can't confirm this.
> 
> For clarification this should also only be a potential problem with mechanical not electric if this was not already clear enough.


He did, but he's so non-mechanical that he ignored it and then it broke. He usually doesn't bring his bike in unless it just flat doesn't work. Or, for a once-a-year overhaul.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mimason said:


> ...
> Also, since Shimano replaced the shifter I was told they changed the design to address this but I can't confirm this.


According to a number of internet sources (one example here), the 9001 version was a rolling update intended to address the problem. Others subsequently have maintained it didn't really do the job.


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## TiCoyote (Jun 28, 2005)

I always found that the Jagwire cables shifted more smoothly than the stock 6600 cables. Jagwire on 6600 was also smoother than Shimano on 6700, but I think the entire 6600 system was smoother. 

I also had a 6600 cable break inside the shifter. Never happened with Jagwire.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

goodboyr said:


> Definitely not an issue with di2.  But seriously, in defense of shimano, they are responding to consumer marketing trends ( aero means hiding cables, which causes sharper bends), easier shifting needs lower friction. Engineering in this case prioritizes these considerations over longevity.
> But really, they want you on di2.........


agree....


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

My last 2 RDR cables lasted just a hair over 3000 miles before the the shifting started feeling funny, not quite as crisp. Pulled the last one out at 3100 and sure enough, one wire had broken in the cable bundle and that was all it took to make it noticeable to me.


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

cxwrench said:


> The one thing that blows me away is how much these silly cables cost. MSRP for shift cables/housing set is $55.99?!?  Are you freaking kidding me?


And i'm sure you've seen the "cost" on just a cable, crazy right? For me to make my margin goals I would have to sell 2 cables for nearly the same price as a complete set.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Decided to sell off my 7800 and 7900 components. Wanted to give the 6800 shifters a go. Called Shimano tech to ask about the numerous complaints of cable failures in the 9000 shifters.

Tech stated that 'some' owners had complained of premature cable failures. He stated Shimano decided to make changes to the cables being produced. Said that Shimano makes the cables and does not purchase them from another manufacturer so they were able to easily make changes.
It would seem to be an issue of making a cable that was both flexible and had good durability. I suppose as flexibility is increased the possibility for fatigue failure is also increased. 

I asked about the claim that Shimano made changes to the cable routing design used in the 6800 and then the 9001 shifters. He stated that no changes were made to the cable routing design. If you search up the exploded drawings for;
9000 / 6800 / 9001 / 5800 his comments ring true. The exact same part numbers are used for all (4) designs (the parts associated with routing the shift cable). He did say that the 6800 and 9001 shifters have cosmetic changes when compared to the 9000 shifters. I went to my LBS to have a look see and that seems to be true as well. 

Haven't installed the 6800's yet and have been on my CX bike only.

In addition, I rode 7800 for years. Yea, they shifted like melted butter and they also broke the rear shift cable about every 5k miles. Always frayed just inside the shifter body where the cable arcs over the barrel. The shifting went soft and I knew it was going to break within a week or so.

So, CXWRENCH what are you going to install on the customer's bike?


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

I did not read all the posts but the shredding polymer looks a lot like what can happen with Gore cables. It shreds and gums up the works. Some recent Jagwire cables I got have a hard black coating that might come off more like dust or powder, but not in a stringy mess.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

Has any tried cables with a higher strand count? Alligator make some with 31 strands. These should be substantially more flexible, and thus last longer before fatiguing.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Mr Evil said:


> Has any tried cables with a higher strand count? Alligator make some with 31 strands. These should be substantially more flexible, and thus last longer before fatiguing.


Interesting to read that the difference between my 6500 and 6800 shifting comes off as a trade-off between cable longevity and ease of shifting. I agree with the poster who said consumers prefer function over reliability.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Trek_5200, your 6500 shifters have it all goin on, they shift smooth as silk and the cable will outlast any of the newer gen. shifters. I own (2) sets of 6500's and really like them. But alas, vanity prevailed and made me get some of the new crap, (I mean shifters).


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

looigi, which model of Jagwire did you buy?

Would be great if you could fast forward (6) months and give us a follow up report.

Would be good to hear from others trying different cables in the 9000 / 6800 / 9001 shifters.
Some have reported using the Jagwire Ripcords and achieving better longevity.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I use plain cables and housings with no coating. I lube them with chain lube.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

upstateSC-rider said:


> I've gone about 6k miles (about 2 years at the time) before replacing cables on my 6700 bike.
> Started hearing these horror stories of cables breaking in the shifter and now change them annually, about 3.5k miles.
> I consider it a small price to pay for not having to deal with sram.


I have now close to 14k miles on my Camp SR11 setup. Cables pretty much look like new. Just sayin...


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Pirx said:


> I have now close to 14k miles on my Camp SR11 setup. Cables pretty much look like new. Just sayin...


Didn't I read that although the new SR11 shifters look about the same on the outside, they have been totally redesigned on the inside?

Didn't they just redesign their front mech to be like Shimano with the long arm? Didn't they just redesign their rear mech's geometry to be like Shimano too? Even now needing a b-tension screw and the whole works?

So you might want to hold onto what you have, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this might start happening to the new Campy soon.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

OMG!!! It took 5 pages to finally get this to a Shimano/Campy argument. 
RBR is slipping. Usually this happens after 2 pages or less.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rcb78 said:


> And i'm sure you've seen the "cost" on just a cable, crazy right? For me to make my margin goals I would have to sell 2 cables for nearly the same price as a complete set.


Exactly...it's kinda crazy. 



metoou2 said:


> So, CXWRENCH what are you going to install on the customer's bike?


I put standard Shimano cables (no coating) in w/ new housing and it worked perfectly.


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

cxwrench, are you seeing this less often with the 9001 shifters compared to the 9000?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Very good CX, let us know when if the customer has any more issues.

Did you do a 'blind taste test' and not mention to the guy which cables you fitted?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

rcb78 said:


> metoou2 said:
> 
> 
> > Very good CX, let us know when if the customer has any more issues.
> ...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

5DII said:


> cxwrench, are you seeing this less often with the 9001 shifters compared to the 9000?


Far as I can tell it's exactly the same as no changes were actually made w/ the internals of the shifters. Same part #'s. Maybe they changed the cables a bit? They definitely didn't 're-engineer' the shifter. There's only so much room in there and the only thing that matters is the radius of the bend the cable is wrapped around. That's the same.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ibericb said:


> Q: Is a coating necessary to prevent the cables from being worn/fraying? If so, the whatever is being used for the coating wasn't up to the task, at least on this cable set.
> 
> As a retired materials guy, I'd be wondering what polymer was used for the coating. It looks like it fails by fibrillating, which makes me suspect it might be an LCP (e.g. Vectra).


As a materials guy, don't you think the cable (not coating) fraying problem is a materials and not necessarily a shifter problem? Seems to me that one can make a shift cable that has practically infinite fatigue life. Maybe cold working on cables shortens fatigue life.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Mr Evil said:


> Has any tried cables with a higher strand count? Alligator make some with 31 strands. These should be substantially more flexible, and thus last longer before fatiguing.


I just ordered some of these 31 strand cables, so will compare them to the 19 strand Shimano cables on hand. I have the plain stainless steel, 6800 and 9000 here already. The price of these cables is right ($5)
It's hard to say why there would be a difference between coated and non-coated cable life in the same shifters. Unless the coated cable has a smaller diameter steel cable under the coating, or the steel used is a different grade or finish. 
Maybe the coating causes more stress as it constricts the individual wires movement as it bends?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> As a materials guy, don't you think the cable (not coating) fraying problem is a materials and not necessarily a shifter problem? Seems to me that one can make a shift cable that has practically infinite fatigue life. Maybe cold working on cables shortens fatigue life.


When done properly, materials and design go hand in hand. That said, I have seen far too many cases where a new material was substituted into a traditional design. The most common result was unexpected failure with the new material. Then the new material gets a bad rap, when in fact it was the design was ill-suited for the new material.

Shimano has a long history of exemplary engineering and design. On these shifters, however, somebody screwed up. Most people point to the design change that came going to the 9000 series. In my mind it's a package deal. So in my mind both shifter, the underlying cable and the coating should be questioned. When they were brought together, it didn't work.

A simple solution for Shimano would be to put everything back like it was. But that simply ignores the problem (opportunity) they've discovered. Hopefully their engineers learn something in sorting out the root cause of the cable/shifter failure. It's a system, and it needs to be approached as such.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

If you take a look at the pathways (angles) created by the shift cable routing parts for the 6700 / 7900 series and then do the same with the 9000 / 6800 / 9001 they both have to follow similar paths to arrive at the barrel that the cable wraps around.

Yes, the entry points are different when comparing the (2) different gen. shifters. But both pathways cause the cable to make a 90deg bend and then wrap around that barrel. 

6700 / 7900 had cable heads popping off very early on. Shimano said it was due to bike assembly companies not using Shimano ferrules and housing. Who knows for sure, but the problem didn't or hasn't plagued that entire generation of shifters.
This current issue seems to be a persistent problem for many people riding the 9000 / 6800 / 9001.

ibericib, you said it best when you described the shifter and cable as a system. 

These failures always raise the question as to why these sorts of problems can't be ferreted out during prototype trials. It has been my experience that often the problems occur when the parts reach the stage of actually being produced in mass. Something gets lost during that transition and the production guys fail to meet certain standards that were established by the prototype engineers and testers. 
And the flip side of that is the testers can fail to adequately test out the system. 

Some things that stand out after all the reading I've done;
There are cyclist who have fitted these poly coated cables to the last generation shifters; 5700 / 6700 / 7900 and they are reporting the same premature cable failures. This seems to point the finger at the poly coated cable. 
Additionally, mechanics/ cyclists are fitting 'normal' stainless Dura Ace cables to 9000 / 6800 / 9001 shifters and reporting longer, more normal cable life.
The same can be said for mechanics/ cyclists fitting Jagwire cables to these same shifters. 

I have in my possession;
new 9000 shifters purchased Jan. 2013 from a LBS
new 6800 shifters purchased Jan. 2015 (these came from RIBBLE) RIBBLE was at zero stock status right up until Dec. 18, 2014. They got in product and I ordered. So it would appear that my 6800's were 'fresh off the boat' from whoever produced them. 

Caly Fretz of Velonews reported that Shimano's statement was that the 6800's and 9001's had ONLY cosmetic changes. And the only 'engineering' change was to the actual poly coated cables being supplied with the shifters. 
I made a call to Shimano Tech and they said the same thing.
I believe the statement about cosmetics based on observing the shifters I own. And by viewing the EV drawings supplied by Shimano.
And I believe the statement about the cables based on observing and measuring the cables I own. 

9000 shift / brake housing is identical to the 6800. It is the same SP-41 housing that was used in the last gen. shifters. 

9000 shift cables;
strand counts are identical to 6800
couldn't measure the diam. of the cable bundle due to the poly coating 
total diam is .002 inches bigger for the 6800

And as far as 'appearances' go, the poly coating on the 6800 shift and brake cables is significantly darker than the poly coating as seen on the 9000 shift and brake cables.

I realize companies will hide certain facts for many reasons. However, it has been (2) years since 9000 was released. In that time Shimano has produced the 6800 , 9001 and the 5800's. That's plenty of time for Shimano to decide what exactly is the source of the failures. And if they felt it was the design of the shift cable routing parts inside the shifters then why would they continue on with a faulty design?
The design is there for all to see. The Shimano EV drawings show identical shift cable routing parts being used for; 9000 / 6800 / 9001 / 5800. This alone shows that Shimano is sticking to their design.

The short version; "I think the cable done it".


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

After sleeping on this, and going back and looking at a few historical references, my suspicion tends towards changes in cables that came post 7800/6700 as being more of the problem than the shifters, but the shifters helped.

Up through the 7800 and 6700 shifter Shimano "strongly discouraged" the use of a frame with internal cable routing because they felt it impaired index shifting function due to "high cable resistance". More recently that objection has disappeared. My SWAG is that along the way Shimano went to a stiffer internal cable in the interest of overcoming what they believed to be "high cable resistance" with internal frame routing, but in doing so ended up with cables that reach critical fatigue (strand breakage) with fewer cycles. Cable fatigue would also be exacerbated with more strained bending, as would occur with a smaller radius bending cycle on shifting.

It's just a SWAG, but my bet is the newer Shimano cables are stiffer and have a lower cyclic fatigue level than the older ones, or tried and true well known alternatives to Shimano.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ibericb said:


> It's just a SWAG, but my bet is the newer Shimano cables are stiffer and have a lower cyclic fatigue level than the older ones, or tried and true well known alternatives to Shimano.


This snapping issue is not new or unique to the most recent generation of shimano shifters ard cables and using alternative brand cables does not remedy it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> This snapping issue is not new or unique to the most recent generation of shimano shifters ard cables and using alternative brand cables does not remedy it.


All cables will eventually fail due to cyclic bending fatigue. The more you bend and cycle them, and the more strain they endure in bending (smaller radius bending), the sooner they will fatigue and break. From everything I've read about the newer designs is that they are failing much sooner than the older ones. As I noted, the newer shifters probably aided, but my guess is cable fatigue limits went down as well. Put the two together and it looks really bad.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Hence ... drum roll please ... the solution is wireless control of the front and rear derailleurs.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Huh? What's wrong with a wired electronic connection? Cable fatigue???????


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

goodboyr said:


> Huh? What's wrong with a wired electronic connection? Cable fatigue???????


Yup.

Trust the force, Luke.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

myhui said:


> Hence ... drum roll please ... the solution is wireless control of the front and rear derailleurs.


Close, but not exactly. Just do away with the stranded wire shift cables, and go electronic (hard wired or wireless) , which was the good cxwrench's point with this thread. The alternative is replace cables more frequently, or change to something other than Shimano. Choose your poison.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The brifters tend to give brake cables a smooth path. So keeping those mechanical should be just fine.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I was window shopping the Lynskey web pages and realize that no holes need to be drilled into the frame if I use wireless electronic shifting, and run the rear brake cable externally with full length housing.

The bottom of the bottom bracket will be fully closed on that frame.

The battery for the controller can be fastened onto the handlebar.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

ibericb said:


> After sleeping on this, and going back and looking at a few historical references, my suspicion tends towards changes in cables that came post 7800/6700 as being more of the problem than the shifters, but the shifters helped.
> 
> Up through the 7800 and 6700 shifter Shimano "strongly discouraged" the use of a frame with internal cable routing because they felt it impaired index shifting function due to "high cable resistance". More recently that objection has disappeared. My SWAG is that along the way Shimano went to a stiffer internal cable in the interest of overcoming what they believed to be "high cable resistance" with internal frame routing, but in doing so ended up with cables that reach critical fatigue (strand breakage) with fewer cycles. Cable fatigue would also be exacerbated with more strained bending, as would occur with a smaller radius bending cycle on shifting.
> 
> It's just a SWAG, but my bet is the newer Shimano cables are stiffer and have a lower cyclic fatigue level than the older ones, or tried and true well known alternatives to Shimano.


I would think lower friction would be needed instead of more stiffness; hence the coated cables. I'm not sure how you can make a steel cable stiffer unless you increase the diameter because all steels have practically the same modulus of elasticity. Housing can effect the stiffness, but the inner wire, no. 

I think brifters tend to break cables because of the high force the long lever arm of the brake lever puts on the cable button when you try to push past low gear. The small lever of bar end and down tube shifters don't put much force on the cable in comparison.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

ibericb said:


> All cables will eventually fail due to cyclic bending fatigue. The more you bend and cycle them, and the more strain they endure in bending (smaller radius bending), the sooner they will fatigue and break. *From everything I've read about the newer designs is that they are failing much sooner than the older ones. * As I noted, the newer shifters probably aided, but my guess is cable fatigue limits went down as well. Put the two together and it looks really bad.


Then you're reading the wrong stuff. As someone metoou said earlier: "Caly Fretz of Velonews reported that Shimano's statement was that the 6800's and 9001's had ONLY cosmetic changes. And the only 'engineering' change was to the actual poly coated cables being supplied with the shifters. 
I made a call to Shimano Tech and they said the same thing.
I believe the statement about cosmetics based on observing the shifters I own. And by viewing the EV drawings supplied by Shimano.
And I believe the statement about the cables based on observing and measuring the cables I own."


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Then you're reading the wrong stuff. As someone metoou said earlier: "Caly Fretz of Velonews reported that Shimano's statement was that the 6800's and 9001's had ONLY cosmetic changes. And the only 'engineering' change was to the actual poly coated cables being supplied with the shifters.
> I made a call to Shimano Tech and they said the same thing.
> I believe the statement about cosmetics based on observing the shifters I own. And by viewing the EV drawings supplied by Shimano.
> And I believe the statement about the cables based on observing and measuring the cables I own."


The newer shifter reference was to 9000/9001 & 6800 vs. 7800 and 6700, respectively, as older. What am I missing?


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

Mr Evil said:


> Has any tried cables with a higher strand count? Alligator make some with 31 strands. These should be substantially more flexible, and thus last longer before fatiguing.


This is exactly how they should be being made. In the electrical world, you go from solid wire, where wires are permanently installed and never move, to stranded for use in exposed power cords, all the way to welding wire where you need huge overall gauge but maximum flexibility. Many small wires = max flex + max life. 

The only downside is that you get a smaller cross section of actual steel, so ultimate and yield strength is reduced somewhat. I would think we aren't pushing the envelope on the shifter side, but this might matter for brakes. So I'd think the optimum stranding could differ between shifter cables and brake cables (and FD/RD at that)


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I would think lower friction would be needed instead of more stiffness; hence the coated cables. I'm not sure how you can make a steel cable stiffer unless you increase the diameter because all steels have practically the same modulus of elasticity. Housing can effect the stiffness, but the inner wire, no.
> 
> I think brifters tend to break cables because of the high force the long lever arm of the brake lever puts on the cable button when you try to push past low gear. The small lever of bar end and down tube shifters don't put much force on the cable in comparison.


You may be right on the stiffness, certainly of the steel strands. But when you look at how the new poly coated cables are depicted in various reports, the new poly coating is shown as wrapped around the helical strands, somewhat like old metal tube coiled metal tube housings, rather than as a smooth polymer coating over the metal. Depending on the polymer used and the possible orientation in the polymer filament that could make the internal cable "stiffer", but probably to a limited degree.

I don't think it's friction of the whole per se, but in may be that the previous design of the smooth PTFE provided, somehow (possibly depending on how it was applied), a measure of internal lubrication between the outer strands that the new wrapped polymer design doesn't. In that sense it may be internal "friction" or simple stress concentration as the metal strands contact each other in bending, increasing strain locally.


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## Eric_H (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't have experience with the 9000/6800 series but lots of experience with 7900/6700. I have found the 7900 shifters and cables (Shimano SP41) are definitely prone to fraying and eventual breakage. I would say 5000-7000 km for me. My winter bike has 6700 shifters and I built it with Yokozuna shift cables/housing. No joke, this bike has 16000 km (10000 miles) of use in a lot of bad weather and I'm still on the original cables, with no fraying at the shifter. Now, 16K km just sounds like lazy maintenance and you would be partly correct in assuming that  but I'm also interested just to see how long the cable will last. The other thing is that in general this setup has resulted in a lot less fine-tuning of the shifting in the long run, compared to any of the bikes I've had with 7900 and SP41 cables.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

metoou2 said:


> looigi, which model of Jagwire did you buy? Would be great if you could fast forward (6) months and give us a follow up report...


Jagwire Road Pro. Cables have a hard black coating. I have them on two road bikes with about 2k miles on one bike. Shifting is still very good. The brake housing are also compressionless, like Yokozuna, but wrapped with Kevlar instead of a flat steel band. These noticeably firm up braking. 

I've put on many different sets of cables over the years and they all worked great when new. The differentiator has been how long the keep working well. One thing is for sure, cables start working poorly much sooner with under the bar tape routing than they did when exiting the sides of the shifters.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks looigi, let me know how they work out. PM me if ya want. I very much appreciate the feedback.

Do you ever get any comments when out on the bike...................I mean......well, you do kinda look like a little red Martian.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

ibericb said:


> changes in cables that came post 7800/6700 as being more of the problem than the shifters, but the shifters helped.


did you mean to 'say' 7900 / 6700?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I've never actually gotten my hands on any 5800's. Do they come stock with the poly coated cables. I would imagine that they would.

And another thing! I asked Shimano if the only difference between aftermarket cable sets, Dura Ace vs Ultegra poly coated cables was the price and the packaging. He went into some monologue about how the Dura Ace is wound tighter and is smoother, blah, blah.............
Well I have them BOTH in my hands and I don't buy that part of the Shimano Party Line. 

Way to go CX, see what happens when you 'start' a thread, it becomes a monster! This thing is going to need its own Forum before much longer.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

metoou2 said:


> did you mean to 'say' 7900 / 6700?


Oops - yes.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

metoou2 said:


> I've never actually gotten my hands on any 5800's. Do they come stock with the poly coated cables.


Cables and housings are completely separate.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

> Way to go CX, see what happens when you 'start' a thread, it becomes a monster! This thing is going to need its own Forum before much longer.


Sorry guys!


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

ibericb said:


> Cables and housings are completely separate.


I'm a bit thick headed, not sure what your post means.

I was curious if when someone buys a set of 5800 shifters what type of cables are included with the set. Does Shimano ship them with the poly coated cables or with stainless cables.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

metoou2 said:


> I'm a bit thick headed, not sure what your post means.
> 
> I was curious if when someone buys a set of 5800 shifters what type of cables are included with the set.


None - no cables included . Cables, just like derailleurs, are a separate component.


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## bigfloor (Sep 19, 2014)

Cables are included. I run 5800 on my winterbike and the STI's had the cables included when the group arrived. The cables did look a bit different from the cables included with my 9000 group


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ibericb said:


> None - no cables included . Cables, just like derailleurs, are a separate component.


Shimano 105 ST-5800 11 Speed Shifters > Components > Shifters > Road Bike Shifters | Jenson USA
•Includes polymer coated shift cables


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I stand corrected - had not seen them packaged with cables. SP-41 it is.

Thanks - I learned something.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

ibericb said:


> I stand corrected - had not seen them packaged with cables. SP-41 it is.
> 
> Thanks - I learned something.


SP-41 is the housing, same for 2 generations of 5700/6700/7900 and 5800/6800/9000. It's the inner cable that's different, and also the "bits" that ship with the set. 

The polymer cables I have (Ultegra polymer and Dura-ace polymer) came with little plastic liners that extend out of the housing cap into the shifters, and rear derailleur adjustment screw. I think they are trying to prevent cable on steel or rough transition after cable exits the housing. They call them "sealed end caps", and say they are supposed to keep out dirt and contamination. 

What you get with the shifters depends on whether you buy the retail package (all cables, housing, fittings) or OEM, typical from UK sellers, especially CRC. My 5700 shifters from Chain Reaction were quite inexpensive, but came wrapped in a bubblewrap bag with only the cables, already installed in shifters. No housings or fittings.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

fterthis I realized, I've never looked closely at, or had in my hand, a retail package of STI shifters, certainly not the 11-speed models (have the 6800's on my Domane, but they came with the bike).

Right you are on the housing vs. cable. I just went and looked and it's interesting. I can't see any part number reference to the polymer coated cable in any of Shimano's literature. They mention it, and give specific cable diameters in the DM's, but don't show it or a part number in the EV's. A tad strange for Shimano.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Shimano also has undocumented parts and diagrams included in the retail packages that are not found in the online diagrams or manuals. 

For example with 9001 cables, they do not show the rear derailleur plastic insert on the package front, but do show it on the 6800 cables. 

And despite not showing it, they include it with the 9001 cables, and have a little 2 inch paper insert with no doc numbers on it that shows you where to "insert it". A free extra part, I guess. Maybe their recent research says Shimano now thinks it is important. 

Seen this before from Shimano - you get interesting little slips of cheap paper, like found in fortune cookies, with real-time changes to production that are not found in the manuals. 

This is not unusual from my long history servicing Japanese motorcycles, which goes back to 1970. Oh, those were the days of "Jinglish" manuals.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

BS. All diagrams are available on the shimano tech docs site. Including the parts lists that show the plastic insert. Its on the shifter diagrams.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

goodboyr said:


> BS. All diagrams are available on the shimano tech docs site. Including the parts lists that show the plastic insert. Its on the shifter diagrams.


Can you provide a link to the 9001 shifter manual or diagram showing the plastic insert for the rear derailleur? All I see is the links below for 9001 shifter parts and dealer manual, and it's not mentioned in either one. I'm not aware of a manual for the cables alone.
SHIMANO Dealer's Manual / User's Manual


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. These are the Dura-Ace road shift cable set black, part Y63Z98910
If you count the little parts shown on the package bottom, you get 8. In the little plastic wrapper you have nine, the extra being for the rear derailleur. The little paper showing how to install the insert with diagram is also shown - this detail is not in the 9001 shifter dealer manual.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/dm/DM-GN0001-09-ENG.pdf

http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/ev/EV-RD-9000-3330A.pdf

Apologies for directing you to the shifting manual. Its the RD manual. I would agree that its hard to find, but it is there.


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

Z'mer said:


> Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. These are the Dura-Ace road shift cable set black, part Y63Z98910
> If you count the little parts shown on the package bottom, you get 8. In the little plastic wrapper you have nine, the extra being for the rear derailleur. The little paper showing how to install the insert with diagram is also shown - this detail is not in the 9001 shifter dealer manual.


So one is for the cable out of the RD, where do the other ones go? And where do you put the longer ones vs shorter ones?


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

5DII said:


> So one is for the cable out of the RD, where do the other ones go? And where do you put the longer ones vs shorter ones?


Short ones are covered in the manual - they go onto the housing where it goes into the shifters, one each side. The short ones are slotted to prevent rotation. 

Long ones go at the other end of that housing, where the housings meet the downtube stops. 

The 3rd long one goes at the chain stay shift housing stop, and the metal cap goes at the other end of that housing, into the derailleur adjuster. Separate and following the housing is the plastic part inserted into the derailleur adjuster (shown in my last post).


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I think I know why these cables are breaking prematurely. For a cable to have good fatigue life, the individual strands have to be able to slip relative to one another as the cable is bent. The tightly wound coating inhibits this.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mfdemicco said:


> I think I know why these cables are breaking prematurely. For a cable to have good fatigue life, the individual strands have to be able to slip relative to one another as the cable is bent. The tightly wound coating inhibits this.


I think you may be on the right track, but maybe not exactly. This was the point I tried to make in my reply to you 4 days ago. Think about the stiffness of the polymer wrapped around the wire rope.

Consistent with what you stated I suspect some slip between adjacent wire strands has been lost with the replacement of PTFE with whatever the new polymer is, and how it's applied. But I can't see any conventional polymer wrapped around a steel cable being so strong as to prevent the strands themselves slipping. It leads me to believe that the PTFE coating on the older cables was doing more than lubricating the wire rope package from sliding in the housing. It was probably also providing some lubrication for wire stand slippage that has now been lost.


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

ibericb said:


> I think you may be on the right track, but maybe not exactly. This was the point I tried to make in my reply to you 4 days ago. Think about the stiffness of the polymer wrapped around the wire rope.
> 
> Consistent with what you stated I suspect some slip between adjacent wire strands has been lost with the replacement of PTFE with whatever the new polymer is, and how it's applied. But I can't see any conventional polymer wrapped around a steel cable being so strong as to prevent the strands themselves slipping. It leads me to believe that the PTFE coating on the older cables was doing more than lubricating the wire rope package from sliding in the housing. It was probably also providing some lubrication for wire stand slippage that has now been lost.


Has anyone used the old PTFE cables on current 6800/9000 groupset? Is it different in terms of shift feel? Just wondering since people have been saying the current new cables make the older groupsets feel better.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

I have seen a few posts where people have used the old 7900 cables in the 6800 / 9000 shifters. They reported longer cable life and only about a 5% loss in the ease of making shifts.

Two things are at play with the 6800 / 9000 groups. They use the super slick cables and the mechanics and over-all design were overhauled. 

The re-worked mechanics within the shifter body created an improvement. 
The taller arm used on the front der. created an improvement. Last, the re-designed parallelogram and shift angles of the rear der. caused improvements. The 'feel' created by the rear der. is impressive. As you climb up the cassette the shift effort remains exactly the same. That was never the case with older designs.

So, the 6800 / 9000 group's improvements aren't only the result of using a super slick cable. The mechanics involved also play a big part. And it makes sense that using a non-poly coated cable (even a stainless non-coated cable) would yield a shift 'feel' that is still very impressive.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

I swapped between polymer and PTFE cables on 5700. Huge difference in shift quality. The polymer coated cables make a night-and-day difference in rear shifting. I would not run anything but polymer coated cables in 11sp Shimano groups if you care about shift quality.


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

Dunbar said:


> I swapped between polymer and PTFE cables on 5700. Huge difference in shift quality. The polymer coated cables make a night-and-day difference in rear shifting. I would not run anything but polymer coated cables in 11sp Shimano groups if you care about shift quality.


So, PTFE is a polymer. It is right there in the name. Which polymer are you talking about?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Dunbar said:


> I swapped between polymer and PTFE cables on 5700. Huge difference in shift quality. The polymer coated cables make a night-and-day difference in rear shifting. I would not run anything but polymer coated cables in 11sp Shimano groups if you care about shift quality.


You swapped between polymer and polymer. :idea:

*Poly*tetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) is a synthetic fluoro*polymer*. A fluoropolymer is a fluorocarbon based polymer.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Polymer is the new Shimano cables designed for 5800/6800/9000. PTFE was the old high end cable (which is still available.) That is what Shimano calls them so you'd have to ask them why they picked those particular names.

Edit, there's huge difference in shift quality between the two. Anyone who thinks they're the same cable clearly has not used both.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Dunbar said:


> Polymer is the new Shimano cables designed for 5800/6800/9000. PTFE was the old high end cable (which is still available.) That is what Shimano calls them so you'd have to ask them why they picked those particular names.
> 
> Edit, there's huge difference in shift quality between the two. Anyone who thinks they're the same cable clearly has not used both.


Sounds like you've clearly downed large quantities of the Kool Aid.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> Sounds like you've clearly downed large quantities of the Kool Aid.


Or I have ridden thousands of miles on both cables on the same bike. The polymer coated cables require about half as much force to downshift the RD. But hey, this is the internet where personal experience with a product is not a prerequisite for having an opinion about it.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Dunbar said:


> Or I have ridden thousands of miles on both cables on the same bike. The polymer coated cables require about half as much force to downshift the RD. But hey, this is the internet where personal experience with a product is not a prerequisite for having an opinion about it.


You're seriously doubting my level of experience? You know what I do for a living right? I've probably built and/or re-cabled at least a couple hundred Shimano bikes in the last year alone...
It's doubtful your personal experience w/ ONE bike is going to convince me of anything.


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## Dunbar (Aug 8, 2010)

Likewise, I couldn't care less about your opinion. I've got over 10k miles on both inner cables in the last year (paid for out of my own pocket.) I'd trust someone who has extensively ridden both cables on the same bike to someone who has shifted them on the work stand.


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## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

@Dunbar, give us some links on where to buy this new polymer cable.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Cheapest I've seen in the U.S. is e-Bikestop

you are referring to 9000 and or 6800 Shimano poly coated cables right?


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

cxwrench said:


> Anyone that's been on this forum for a while knows that I rarely start a thread, the vast majority of my posts are answering questions and being an opinionated jerk. But, seeing as how this subject has come up recently and people have widely varied thoughts on the matter, here's what I'm dealing with currently.
> 
> This bike was new in May. The owner is a Cat 2 masters road racers, probably averages 6-8000mi a year. He brought his D/A 9000 bike in yesterday w/ a 'shifting problem'. I didn't take it in, one of my co-workers did and he figured it was a broken cable.
> 
> I put the bike in my stand this morning and sure enough...rear derailleur cable was broken in the shifter. Not a big deal, it's pretty easy although somewhat time consuming to remove them from the new style levers. To be clear, there was no fraying on the brake cable, but the coating was toast and it had to come out anyway. The cables were the 'new' polymer coated fancy Shimano DA ones. See the attached photos and you'll see 2 things...the polymer is pretty shredded and the cable frayed badly then broke.



The DA 11 speed Shimano had three major flaws. One, the chain- wide wobbly, descent for 10 speed, atrocious for 11 speed spacing. Shimano recognized the grinding noise and released a communique stating that it will wear itself in place !

2- the PTFE polymer cable frays the polymer on serious riding- the average of 2 weeks or 400-800 kms riding is correct. Once the polymer frayed, it added extra resistance in the system.

3- The DA cassette, the worse engineered cassette in the history of cycling. It cracks, bends under torque (above the plastic labelled 'carbon core'). Shimano threatened the accounts of store owners whom, they told me, confronted the core as PLASTIC and unrelated to carbon. A plastic prone to cracking with its 1- then 2- retaining rivets! See online pics...

After three months and countless overhauls on my new bike, 2014, the LBS expert knew he had a problem- all DAS bikes had the same problem. But only when loading me on a trainer and stayed 1.5 hours after closure to look at it with lights etc, he said "Stop! It will NEVER WORK!" He saw the chain bending the cassette, the lagging shifts, the chain touching adjacent cogs and false engaging, all things unlikely to experience below 28km hrs (gear ratios).

we resolved, it fully, and reported it to Bike radar. We first tried a campy chain- no more grinding, 5.3 vs 5.8mm, stiff, superbt BUT, the cassette still dropped the chain under torque. And shifts were slow. We then replaced the cable with Gore set I still had - which lasted 10,000 kms and is still good though I replaced it with Yokozuna; And we replaced the DA cassette with SRAM HG-1190, a pro trick NDAs prevent pros from disclosing.

With that, I could pull elite times and unparalleled reliability, hindered occasionally by the DA rear mech off slight hesitations at times. However, once seated the Campy chain delivered a superb feel. two bikes, same setup.

We took it to the next level with the new DA R9100 rear mech, which Shimano engineered as Guide Wheel as wide, Shimano DA only compatible. 15 min of filing it, fits perfectly the Campy and I have not SRAM stacato type gear changes, Shimano lever speed and Campy insane energy transfer and feel per gear. In many ways, better than EPS but will still require, temperature relative, the occasional Barrel CCW or CW turn.

Why Yoko? Gore no longer makes cables. Yokos, even at the 6,000 km mark, you examine it, no plastic deformation. Jag Wire? 2 DAYS RIDING it was bent. Shimano Cables? Never again.. 400 or 10,000 kms, lemme see...


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Belisarius said:


> we resolved, it fully, and reported it to Bike radar. We first tried a campy chain- no more grinding, 5.3 vs 5.8mm, stiff, superbt BUT, the cassette still dropped the chain under torque. And shifts were slow. We then replaced the cable with Gore set I still had - which lasted 10,000 kms and is still good though I replaced it with Yokozuna; And we replaced the DA cassette with *SRAM Hyperglide*, a pro trick NDAs prevent pros from disclosing.


Small point, but there is no such thing. SRAM cogs are *X-Glide*, Hyperglide is Shimano. One more thing...I'm around pro bikes all the time and I've yet to see Shimano teams using SRAM cassettes. Not saying it hasn't happened at some point, but I've never seen.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Shimano issued a running change to the Dura Ace cassettes back in 2014 to address the creaking and failure issues. They went from a single rivet design to a double.

These cassettes have been fine ever since.










That said, I have always used Ultegra cassettes. They seem to do the job fine, wear well, and cost a lot less.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Correct, been a few years and mixed them up. Your statement self implies the conclusion "I've yet to see Shimano teams using SRAM cassettes." Do you know what happends if the Shimano rep sees a NON Shimano part? After 2015 the inspection whip was omnipresent wherever teams where sponsored by Shimano, to prevent guys from doing what I did. However, wherever it is possible, people mix- and hide it. That is how I learned of the supplier NDA rules. Then there is the thing I experienced at race pace- the faster you ride, esp in a group, you use the lower cogs- the only good ones on the DA or Ultegra cassette. Barring the occasional climb, the ratio dictates the speed, and higher speed use higher ratios. The DA flaw is 17 and above. Larger cogs, more flexibility, more vibrations, more torque and stress. Solo training, and esp lots of hills, is when that thing fails miserably and creaks to no end.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Not at all. Double broke as well. Shimano threw my way as many DA it could ship every few weeks, and then sent me the Ultegra as well. If it had the plastic core, same issues, be it that it generally had TWO cogs on it, not three like DA (or the reverse). Rest where on metal. Either case, at serious pace 100+ RPM and 250+ watts, or repeat 8Deg+ gradient ascents they do not last a week.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Sorry for the thread dredge but hoping cxwrench sees this. I have a friend with an older Lemond that he wants to upgrade. I took a look at the bike and its a pretty nice Reynolds and carbon hybrid frame. It has a 9 speed triple. He want to upgrade it to a compact 11 speed.

This guy is not a techie and does not do much (any?) maint on his bike. He does not want anything that is less reliable than what he has. He has never changed a cable on the bike. Im sure it has the original chain (with about an inch of lube built up on it!)

I have a friend with 6800 and another that has 5800. Both of them have the problem with breaking shiftier cables. This guy would not be happy at all with this.

Has there been any progress on this or is it just something you are stuck with? If so I think Ill just do a 5700/6700 10 speed upgrade on it.

The other option is Tiagra 4700 10 speed, but I wonder if it is more similar in design to the 5800/6800 and could have same issue?

TIA


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

scottma said:


> Has there been any progress on this or is it just something you are stuck with?


It's a little better on 11sp, but they still fray/break faster than other systems. Change your shift cables every 3,000mi and should never have a problem.

Or get Di2. I've never broke or replaced a shift cable on Di2.



> If so I think Ill just do a 5700/6700 10 speed upgrade on it.


Those shifters suffer shift cable breakage too. Probably more so than 6800.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

tlg said:


> It's a little better on 11sp, but they still fray/break faster than other systems.


My experience is that it's worse. Different bikes and DA (10) compared to Ultegra (11) though.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

I have 3 bikes 1 with 5700, 1 with 6700, and primary bike is 6870 Di2. I have never has a problem with either 10 speed setup and the Di2 wires have not broken yet  

Guys I ride with that have 5800 and 6800 mech have cable problems regularly. I wonder if Shimano make any improvements with the 8000 shifters.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Convert your friends bike to belt drive single speed. 

The new (8000) shifters will damage cables just like all the others. Shimano has at least made it easier to dig the severed cable head out of the shifter.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

scottma said:


> Guys I ride with that have 5800 and 6800 mech have cable problems regularly. I wonder if Shimano make any improvements with the 8000 shifters.


Regularly? 

I got about 7000-8000 miles on my last set of cables in 6800. I ride 5 to 6 days per week. My rides are rolling (normally 40-60 feet per mile). I shift the rear mech a lot.

Don't see how anyone has that many issues with cables. On rides in the last year, I know of more electronic shifter people having batteries die than people having cables break.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> Regularly?
> 
> I got about 7000-8000 miles on my last set of cables in 6800. I ride 5 to 6 days per week. My rides are rolling (normally 40-60 feet per mile). I shift the rear mech a lot.
> 
> Don't see how anyone has that many issues with cables. On rides in the last year, I know of more electronic shifter people having batteries die than people having cables break.


I have to replace frayed cables every week. Last week had a guy w/ a 6700 right hand shifter that didn't understand what had happened and tried to shift a ton. Which successfully deposited the head of the cable somewhere deep in the bottom of the shifter. He had to buy a new shifter.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

crit_boy said:


> Regularly?
> 
> I got about 7000-8000 miles on my last set of cables in 6800. I ride 5 to 6 days per week. My rides are rolling (normally 40-60 feet per mile). I shift the rear mech a lot.
> 
> *Don't see how anyone has that many issues with cables.*


Unfortunately cables don't care what you can see and do fray in a lot less miles. Routing, thus how much force needed to pull, may be a factor from bike to bike. I don't know.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Unfortunately cables don't care what you can see and do fray in a lot less miles. Routing, thus how much force needed to pull, may be a factor from bike to bike. I don't know.


I don't know for sure but I'd tend to agree w/ this.

ETA: Had another broken/frayed cable today. That's a couple this week.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Just gave my Di2 bike a hug.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I just gave every cable shifter ever that isn't STI a hug. This is such a Shimano issue.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

scottma said:


> Sorry for the thread dredge but hoping cxwrench sees this. I have a friend with an older Lemond that he wants to upgrade. I took a look at the bike and its a pretty nice Reynolds and carbon hybrid frame. It has a 9 speed triple. He want to upgrade it to a compact 11 speed.
> 
> This guy is not a techie and does not do much (any?) maint on his bike. He does not want anything that is less reliable than what he has. He has never changed a cable on the bike. Im sure it has the original chain (with about an inch of lube built up on it!)
> 
> ...


No resolution by Shimano, but for some poor attempts to skirt the issue- they ditched the polymer cables, and redesigned the rear mech. HOWEVER, crap system is still 11 speed. Sorry, the only way to resolve the issue on 11 speed is to use a complex hybrid pairing which I tested- SRAM XG-1190 + Campy chain, + new Shimano RD-9100 rear mech (sanding the teeth of the guide wheel to fit the Campy), + Yokozuna cables. Works perfect but... Even then cleanliness is important due to the tighter tolerances. Best if he buys a 10 speed mech and uses yoko cables and a campy 10 speed chain on it.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Belisarius said:


> No resolution by Shimano, but for some poor attempts to skirt the issue- they ditched the polymer cables, and redesigned the rear mech. HOWEVER, crap system is still 11 speed. Sorry, the only way to resolve the issue on 11 speed is to use a complex hybrid pairing which I tested- SRAM XG-90 + Campy chain, + new Shimano RD-9100 rear mech (sanding the teeth of the guide wheel to fit the Campy), + Yokozuna cables. Works perfect but... Even then cleanliness is important due to the tighter tolerances. Best if he buys a 10 speed mech and uses yoko cables and a campy 10 speed chain on it.


Or change the cable before it breaks. That convoluted solution vs $7 and 5 min. I know which I'd choose.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Bad advice is bad advice. There is not such thing as a good road $7 cable. Silly advice. Last I knew even on a 10 speed the '$7' stretches like piano string. As for '5 min' solutions, any internal (or even external) routing, more nonesense. Assuming external, 20 min. Internal? 40-60 min. That aside, when the polymer frayed, it was once every 14 days or about 700-800 kms. Compare that with the Pro setup I have, it is flawless and I replaced cables, when bored, some 7,000 to 10,000 kms (both Gore and Yoko) purely as a precaution. Best part? I still keep them as they are still good...


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Belisarius said:


> Bad advice is bad advice. There is not such thing as a good road $7 cable. Silly advice. Last I knew even on a 10 speed the '$7' stretches like piano string. As for '5 min' solutions, any internal (or even external) routing, more nonesense. Assuming external, 20 min. Internal? 40-60 min. That aside, when the polymer frayed, it was once every 14 days or about 700-800 kms. Compare that with the Pro setup I have, it is flawless and I replaced cables, when bored, some 7,000 to 10,000 kms (both Gore and Yoko) purely as a precaution. Best part? I still keep them as they are still good...
> View attachment 321006


I don't know how much or how little piano string stretches but I sense that statement is as outrageous as everything else you're ever said in this and other threads. Stainless steel cable does not stretch. I have no problem replacing one in 5 min. and I'm the first to admit I'm not skilled at all. External. I'll give you internal because I don't know.

I'm very impressed you have a 'pro set up' though.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I don't know how much or how little piano string stretches but I sense that statement is as outrageous as everything else you're ever said in this and other threads. Stainless steel cable does not stretch. I have no problem replacing one in 5 min. and I'm the first to admit I'm not skilled at all. External. I'll give you internal because I don't know.
> 
> I'm very impressed you have a 'pro set up' though.


You obviously missed basic science, so here are some Dummy Proof facts. Steel, in all forms, dilates and contracts with temperature. Yes, even my Pro setup reacts differently at 10 C than 30 C, with 1/4 barrel adjustment needed. Steel also flexes and stretches - a process known as DUCTILITY, the measure of the degree to which a material can strain or elongate between the onset of yield and eventual fracture under tensile loading, (Dummy tr= if the load is too high, stretches and gives up). Cheap cables are not just way more flexible, but will also stretch stretch and just fray MUCH FASTER. Same science for industrial elevator shaft cables as for bridge suspension. However, given higher grades of steel, we are now talking decades not weeks. Now, back to your stupid $7 cable answer, that cable flexes and stretches far more than the higher grade German steel from Gore (now defunct) or Japanese Yoko. Both outclass any Shimano at the moment, as does Campy. Kinda like the difference between a cheap kitchen knife and a santoku, or some dummie ebay replica vs a real katana. Higher grades of steel have better properties. Your $7 cable will never ever come close to that Yoko or equivalent 30-40$ cable. If you do not capisci the difference, keep riding at 15km/hr and pick up a book on steel properties. 

Another giant hole in your stupid rebuttal, chains- Stainless Steel no less- have- om my god,- the same properties and STRETCH as the pins compress under pressure, thus enlarging spacing. Shimano DA UG 105 usually 1500Kms, SRAM 2500, and Campy, the best metallurgy of all, 3700kms if immaculately maintained. When the tech measure the spacing, they measure STRETCH. Capisci? And yes I kept sample chains as well as references, to learn and not be a dummy.

Now your education enables you to understand why Yoko specifies that its cable strands are a high grade pre-stretched stainless steel. And why un-named pro teams use training cables at 50% wear to cycle them during races- it is the best ductility period of these chains (400-1000 kms for Shimano, 700-3000 for Campy), as the chain has the best ratio of rigidity and flexibility within that mileage, ensuring a faster smoother operation. Pass the best ductile moment, it looses properties and starts flexing too much (1000 kms Shimano, 3000 km mark for Campy) fro Pro riding, though it still has some good qualities for elite riding (1500kms Shimano, 3700kms Campy).


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Belisarius said:


> You obviously missed basic science, so here are some Dummy Proof facts. Steel, in all forms, dilates and contracts with temperature. Yes, even my Pro setup reacts differently at 10 C than 30 C, with 1/4 barrel adjustment needed. Steel also flexes and stretches - a process known as DUCTILITY, the measure of the degree to which a material can strain or elongate between the onset of yield and eventual fracture under tensile loading, (Dummy tr= if the load is too high, stretches and gives up). Cheap cables are not just way more flexible, but will also stretch stretch and just fray MUCH FASTER. Same science for industrial elevator shaft cables as for bridge suspension. However, given higher grades of steel, we are now talking decades not weeks. Now, back to your stupid $7 cable answer, that cable flexes and stretches far more than the higher grade German steel from Gore (now defunct) or Japanese Yoko. Both outclass any Shimano at the moment, as does Campy. Kinda like the difference between a cheap kitchen knife and a santoku, or some dummie ebay replica vs a real katana. Higher grades of steel have better properties. Your $7 cable will never ever come close to that Yoko or equivalent 30-40$ cable. If you do not capisci the difference, keep riding at 15km/hr and pick up a book on steel properties.
> 
> *Another giant hole in your stupid rebuttal, chains- Stainless Steel no less- have- om my god,- the same properties and STRETCH.* And kind of start skipping? Shimano DA UG 105 usually 1500Kms, SRAM 2500, and Campy, the best metallurgy of all, 3700kms if immaculately maintained. When the tech measure the spacing, they measure STRETCH. Capisci? And yes I kept sample chains as well as references, to learn and not be a dummy.
> 
> ...


I didn't actually read your post but the gem in bold caught my eye. No, despite what your superior education might be telling you chains do not get longer because the steel has stretched.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Yes they do. Reread the part on 50% ductility selection fro pro team chain usage. Tiny tiny stretches, and stretches and metal fatigue they are. Same as a suspension, crankshaft, engine casing, airplane parts, same science. You failed your argument- so accept it as such. All steel stretches under load.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

DUCTILIY is your new vocabulary word encompassing steel stretching Fundamental property. You not knowing it is your problem.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

*DUCTILITY*, *the measure of the degree to which a material can strain or elongate between the onset of yield and eventual fracture under tensile loading,* (Dummy tr= if the load is too high, stretches and gives up). Hmm, cables = steel. Cables= ductile. Chains=steel. Chains = ductile? Quack Quack?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Belisarius said:


> *DUCTILITY*, *the measure of the degree to which a material can strain or elongate between the onset of yield and eventual fracture under tensile loading,* (Dummy tr= if the load is too high, stretches and gives up). Hmm, cables = steel. Cables= ductile. Chains=steel. Chains = ductile? Quack Quack?


You really are confused. If the steel plates stretched the holes would get bigger and the chain would fall apart. Chains get longer because of roller and pin wear. This is not anything new, we've known about it for decades. And no...twisted steel cables don't stretch. Sorry...it's 'capiche'...you can't even get the Italian correct.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Belisarius said:


> *DUCTILITY*, *the measure of the degree to which a material can strain or elongate between the onset of yield and eventual fracture under tensile loading,* (Dummy tr= if the load is too high, stretches and gives up). Hmm, cables = steel. Cables= ductile. Chains=steel. Chains = ductile? Quack Quack?


Your application of the term of art ("ductile") is incorrect. I believe you are talking about plastic deformation. 

However, cables and chains do not stretch - they do not experience plastic deformation on a bicycle. 

We colloquially use the word stretch with respect to chains as a easy way of referring to bushing wear that allows the chain to seem like it is longer or seem like it stretched - but the links do not actually stretch. 

Bicycle chain wear explained - BikeRadar USA

We colloquially use the word stretch wrt to cables as a easy way of referring to ferrules and housings seating fully into one another or the parts of the frame/shifters. As they fully seat, the cables seem like they are longer or seem like they stretched - but they did not actually stretch. 

https://www.velofix.com/company/news-events/ask-boris-cable-stretch/


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> Your application of the term of art ("ductile") is incorrect. I believe you are talking about plastic deformation.
> 
> However, cables and chains do not stretch - they do not experience plastic deformation on a bicycle.
> 
> ...


This should be good for a bunch of spastic, uninformed posts by our resident D/A fixer. At least the vast majority of us understand what is actually happening. :thumbsup:


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

You are confused as not only you missed the argument (that cables and steels do stretch), but also the basic concept that different cables, different materials and quality = different results. Cable breakage is just a stretch beyond tolerance. If you do not get that, a fact, that is your personal issue. And higher grade cables, such as Gore or Yokozuna or Campy, simply do not gave that. Facts. And yes, chains stretch and also bend- I saw it with my own eyes after a rear mech snap, the chain twisted like a noodle- but that is beyond the point. The pins also stretch, wear bend and even snap. Seen an ill applied pin (TG not my bike ) snap. Since the pin IS IN THE CHAIN, reasonable to apply the overall issue to it. Wear as well.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Stop playing strawman, because the overall argument - which your absent critical thinking missed, was about CABLES. Not my job to educate you but yes steel qualities apply equally to cables and yes, chains. You demonstrate the purest ignorance bypassing an argument- CABLES and entering here the argument with pseudo-facts. Hence it is known as a strawman. Yes, cheap cables stretch and bend and snap. Wakarimaska? A $7 cable does not hold with aggressive rapid use. Never has and never will. And yes science says you wrong I wright and even provides calculators for those seeking industrial application numbers

https://www.spaceagecontrol.com/calcstre.htm

_Two kinds of stretch occur in cable based on wire rope: constructional stretch and elastic stretch. This stretch is due to two different causes._
_1. Constructional Stretch - When cable is made, the load at the closing head is light. Therefore, there are small clearances between the wires and strands, and between the strand and the core. The application of initial load causes wires and strands to seat properly and a slight overall elongation of the strand or cable accompanies this section. The amount of constructional stretch is not constant for all cables - it depends on such variables as type of construction, length of lay, and other factors, including the load applied._
_2. Elastic Stretch - Elastic stretch is the actual elongation of the wires of a strand or a cable. This is caused by the application of a load up to the yield point of the metal. The stretch is approximately proportional to the load applied. When the load is released, cable subjected to elastic stretch returns to its approximate original length, providing the stretch has not reached the yield point of the metal._


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Crazy is having cheap ill performing equipment expecting to deliver, and repeating the same mistake over and over. Or thinking that Honda is the same quality as some sportier German or Italian car. Quality costs. And yes, I have never had a high quality cable ever fail snap or break. Not only that, but even the black coated Jag failed after 1 week, bending permanently under the bracket. However, high end ones never do, you can pull them out and they are still undeformed and unaffected by 7-10k.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

crit_boy said:


> Your application of the term of art ("ductile") is incorrect. I believe you are talking about plastic deformation.
> 
> However, cables and chains do not stretch - they do not experience plastic deformation on a bicycle.


Incorrect, they do stretch. The term used is correct, the science engineering word for steel properties including plastic deformation, specifically elastic and constructional stretch. They even have stretch calculators for industrial applications: 

https://www.spaceagecontrol.com/calcstre.htm
Cable & Wire Rope Stretch - Loos & Co., Inc.

Ductility, a fundamental property of steel, easy to understand in cables. You cannot question it nor can I or anyone, as, like a law of nature, it is a steel property any engineer will defend. That quote is an engineering quote BTW. Back to the core argument, about cables, $7 cables, and sometimes even overpriced cables (Shimano Poly, now gone, or black coated Jagwire) have a lower quality steel than, e.g. Yokozuna, 20$ per cable. Consequently, its properties, including DUCTILITY, are worse for the scope used. A novice might not notice it on a cheap bike, but 10 11 speeds, high tolerances, things change. So yes, that cable moves like a an elastic even though not obvious. They ALL do (as does a cheap or ill installed pin in a chain, and why some chains like Shimano wear x3 faster than a Campy and x2 faster than SRAM). Difference is the higher grade steel- the good ones- e.g. Campy, with better braids and wrapping, Yoko or Gore, are simply superlative as to not stretch, noticeably, during subject use we are talking about. 

Cheap ones also can and do stretch, but MORE, may or may not break depending on elasticity, and surely, SNAPPING = ultimate form of stretching inside the lever beyond tolerance. It is science, unquestionable science. The fact that some people had their snap in 1 vs 10 weeks is beyond the point, or mine not yet at 10k mark, is a question of use and, especially, material properties. We have all seen cheap stainless steel rust, or snap, vs high grade one not, comes does to same comparison- in any industrial parts, and even cheap aftermarket car parts. Even bad car rotors which can fail with one heat cycle. Back to argument, the quality of cables Shimano has used 2013-2016 on these high end bikes is dubious as wa sits now failed polymer experiment. They had poor cables, fraying polymer, snapping cables, snapping Hollowtech cranks (sure, not steel but why it ever happends?) and lots of forum(s) entries on subject. Poor lever design, sure (and why they replaced my 9000 lever under warranty). Anyone arguing the contrary on these cables is missing the point and repeating the same mistake. Whereas some may brood over cables, or their price, others simply went get really good cables and problem gone.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

How much stretch are we talking? Put a number on it.

I have a bike with the same Campy derailleur cables that I assembled it with in 1989. How many millimeters has this 1 meter cable stretched in 28 years of tension?


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

You are merely reinforcing my point, as I listed Gore (now gone), Yokozuna and Campy as the top, best cable metallurgy on Earth for road bicycles. The only reason I do not run Campy cables is its incompatibility with Shimano levers. But am still kicking myself taking three years of cycling to discover that Campy chains are superlative bar none, and wasting time and money on Shimano chains- not too bad on 10 speeds, but no good on 11 speed cassettes. So sounds to me you have the same Campy 9 speed that my former Italian mentor had (he suddenly passed away last year), he had one 30 year a Campy SR 1986 on his Columbus Genius. He moved it across 3 bikes, and he used to tune up LeMond's bike in Montreal 1970s when he was very young.

How many mm? Likely a fraction of a mm, barrel knob adjustment. To know exactly you would have needed advanced measurement before mounting it and now. To that, add the fact that your 9 speed levers and rear mech load and work the strands far less than current systems, plus, of course, your personal riding style and total distance. A great steel, like your Campy, expands and contracts under load with a very large number of cycles. Hundreds of thousands? Million? At 30 gear changes/km that is 300 000 cycles every 10 000 kms. Varies per rider. No idea. Stronger riders change less, all climbing/descents force more cycles etc..

A cheap one can be weeks or one season. There are x2 types of properties and three issues - elastic stretch (so it is often inacurate) and structural stretch, therefore rigid and brittle, and 3d, a combination of both. When the cable is cheap, you get both inaccuracy and snap either in the lever or on the mech. At that point the deformation is easily x1mm plus. Jagwire, for example, their recent black coated one suffers badly from structural stretch. After one week 400 kms, we pulled it and it was permanently bend under the bracket and in the lever. Yoko/Gore no issues at 10,000km mark. However, when you mention Campy cables, a company whom researches its steel with Brembo and Fiat/Ferrari, you are talking a top quality piece of cable with just right elasticity and a surreal resistance to structural stretch, hence it having 28 years or use and enjoyment. However, switch to non Campy brands and be ready for the exotic experience, unless hunting for equivalent parts.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Belisarius
This thread and my thread dredge was about the cable issue. All your other ranting about that other stuff has nothing to do with the topic. FWIW The people I know who run Shimano 11 speed are all happy with it, dont have any issues other than the cable issue. I run 6870 so dont have that problem.

I was simply looking to see if there was a better cable setup


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

That is great. FYI I have never met an elite rider happy with Shimano 11 speed, and that is why we took it with Shimano. Through magazines, boards, editors (e.g. Bike Radar) and so on. What has Shimano done?

1- Ditched the polymer cable.;
2- Ditched the plastic core cassette in the 105 and Ultegra (pros do not ride as much 17-19T) due to cassette fracture;
3- Changed the lever design again; and
4- Changed, fundamentally, the rear mech to the current RD-9100 (a great result).

All in 2-3 years, it is, technically, the most significant overhaul in modern cycling history, or, in other words, Shimano not being happy with Shimano 11 speed 9000-7900 and making these major changes, hoping to turn back the page on its ill fates 9000 and never ending warranty claims.

Unresolved: chain is of poor quality and metallurgy (for 11 speed) and the increasing number of snapping cranks, DA and Ultegras.

Your best bet for cable on a Shimano or SRAM system is Yokozuna. Superlative steel braids, and top notch steel quality. My system was exceptional last year with Yokozuna, but the 9000 RD was still a slouch. It became perfect with the new RD-9100, permitting sub 200ms changes (or 5-6 gears per second), 5.3 mm wide Campy chain centering flawlessly (thick business cards pis to show Campy clearance). Catch- you will have to shave the guidewheel on the RD-9100 (10 min effort) as it is thick, perhaps purposely to not work with Campy. 

End result? Only the best electronic shifting surpasses the current set up. Throw in a SRAM chain and it gets iffy; a Shimano 5.8mm 11 sped chain, and it is mediocre. Plus it lasts 1500 kms vs 3700 Campy.

Perhaps SRAM cables also work. Jagwire deforms and acts weirdly after as little as 2 rides. Either case, try Yoko and then come back blame me if it fails you in 15,000 kms.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Belisarius said:


> That is great. FYI I have never met an elite rider happy with Shimano 11 speed, and that is why we took it with Shimano. Through magazines, boards, editors (e.g. Bike Radar) and so on. What has Shimano done?
> 
> 1- Ditched the polymer cable.;
> 2- Ditched the plastic core cassette in the 105 and Ultegra (pros do not ride as much 17-19T) due to cassette fracture;
> ...


It must be impossible to have a conversation w/ you in person because the you love to hear the sound of your own voice so much.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

scottma said:


> Sorry for the thread dredge but hoping cxwrench sees this. I have a friend with an older Lemond that he wants to upgrade. I took a look at the bike and its a pretty nice Reynolds and carbon hybrid frame. It has a 9 speed triple. He want to upgrade it to a compact 11 speed.
> 
> This guy is not a techie and does not do much (any?) maint on his bike. He does not want anything that is less reliable than what he has. He has never changed a cable on the bike. Im sure it has the original chain (with about an inch of lube built up on it!)
> 
> ...


The bottom line is that all Shimano STI shifters that have the shifter cable underneath the bar tape have this problem. The includes 5700/6700/7900 as well as 5800/6800/9000. I have had both of these generations and I always end up having to change the rear shifter cable at 2K miles or less because of fraying inside the shifter. The good news is that I have become very aware of what shifting (or lack thereof) feels like before I end up with a 2-speed bike. 

If you want an 11-speed, you will have to deal with this issue. And as one other poster mentioned here, it's not only with Shimano. When aesthetics becomes more important than functionality, this is the price to pay. Making the cables nice and neat under the handlebar tape means more bends and turns from point A to point B which means faster wear on cables.

If you don't want this issue, I suggest trying to find some 5600/6600/7800 equipment where shifter cables came straight out in front of the rider. These will be 10-speed though. There is still a lot of new/old stock out there. EBay is your friend. The bright side with going this way is that 10-speed cable pull ratios are the same as your 9-speed, so you won't need to change your rear derailleur.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> It must be impossible to have a conversation w/ you in person because the you love to hear the sound of your own voice so much.


That's why they make these:


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Thanks and I get that but anecdotally, I dont see people with the problem on 5700/6700. I have 2 bikes with those groups and have never changed a cable and had the groupset since new. BTW, those2 bikes are my commuter/foul weather bikes. They dont get babied. People I know with 5800/6800 seem to have the issue far more often. 

For that guy Im working with I may just leave it a 9 speed and put on a compact crankset and a bigger cassette and call it a day.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

scottma said:


> Thanks and I get that but anecdotally, I dont see people with the problem on 5700/6700.


I do. I have myself had it happen with my 5700 and know someone who has this problem with hers consistently at 1500 miles or less.



scottma said:


> For that guy Im working with I may just leave it a 9 speed and put on a compact crankset and a bigger cassette and call it a day.


Do you mind if I ask you why you want to change from a triple to a compact? Are you having trouble with front shifting? I have an older road bike with 5600 groupo and a triple on the front. Shifts flawlessly and shifters never fray cables.


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Quite the contrary, since you started hurling insults, and fake alternate facts, one can only see the narcissism on the other side. It was your call to enter the conversation belittling, and with ignorance no less. Somehow, someone skipped science classes or common sense to realize that a chain stretches through a process of pressure and load which, through a steel property known as ductility, wears out the pins in place as well as by stretched the link insert point. Pressure/friction (IV) + load (IV) = Structural Deformation (DV) what you parroquet as 'wear.' Better yet: suspend a 50lbs weight to a chain, wait long enough, years, centuries or millenia, magically, without links ever turning, it will break, enlightening you.
And our friends at knowit say "*the holes that contain the chain's pins elongate over time (go from a circle to an oval) and the cumulative effect makes the chain longer in length." *Hmm, layman tr: it stretches; not like a leather shoe, but local deformation.

Did read some of your other comments in separate posts, same tendency to berate and belittle what exceeds your argumentative capacity, the PMs were right. If you can prove or disprove the argument, you are welcome to do so in a reasonably smart manner. Changing arguments is not the way to do it.

To finish your argument off, they continue with:

_Depending on who you consult, a chain should be replaced when it has stretched by more than 0.5%. That means 0.0025 of an inch for a single link. Sure a micrometer can measure that small amount, but there's no good place on the chain to place such a precise instrument! __Instead, we can measure cumulative stretch, that is the total stretch of the chain among many links since all their small deviations will add up to an amount easier to measure. To keep the math simple, we will look for greater than 1/16 inch stretch over 12 link-pairs before replacing the chain._


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## Belisarius (Aug 5, 2017)

Recommend the Sony sound cancelling ones. May help filter ignoramuses claiming that steel chains or cables do not stretch. Sure, 500 years ago claiming the contrary, doing experiments got people burnt, but we evolved to a smarter process of understanding how the world works, based on empirical testing, proof and reasoning.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Belisarius said:


> You are merely reinforcing my point, as I listed Gore (now gone), Yokozuna and Campy as the top, best cable metallurgy on Earth for road bicycles. The only reason I do not run Campy cables is its incompatibility with Shimano levers. But am still kicking myself taking three years of cycling to discover that Campy chains are superlative bar none, and wasting time and money on Shimano chains- not too bad on 10 speeds, but no good on 11 speed cassettes. So sounds to me you have the same Campy 9 speed that my former Italian mentor had (he suddenly passed away last year), he had one 30 year a Campy SR 1986 on his Columbus Genius. He moved it across 3 bikes, and he used to tune up LeMond's bike in Montreal 1970s when he was very young.
> 
> How many mm? Likely a fraction of a mm, barrel knob adjustment. To know exactly you would have needed advanced measurement before mounting it and now. To that, add the fact that your 9 speed levers and rear mech load and work the strands far less than current systems, plus, of course, your personal riding style and total distance. A great steel, like your Campy, expands and contracts under load with a very large number of cycles. Hundreds of thousands? Million? At 30 gear changes/km that is 300 000 cycles every 10 000 kms. Varies per rider. No idea. Stronger riders change less, all climbing/descents force more cycles etc..
> 
> A cheap one can be weeks or one season. There are x2 types of properties and three issues - elastic stretch (so it is often inacurate) and structural stretch, therefore rigid and brittle, and 3d, a combination of both. When the cable is cheap, you get both inaccuracy and snap either in the lever or on the mech. At that point the deformation is easily x1mm plus. Jagwire, for example, their recent black coated one suffers badly from structural stretch. After one week 400 kms, we pulled it and it was permanently bend under the bracket and in the lever. Yoko/Gore no issues at 10,000km mark. However, when you mention Campy cables, a company whom researches its steel with Brembo and Fiat/Ferrari, you are talking a top quality piece of cable with just right elasticity and a surreal resistance to structural stretch, hence it having 28 years or use and enjoyment. However, switch to non Campy brands and be ready for the exotic experience, unless hunting for equivalent parts.


28 years ago they didn't have 9 speed, let alone 8 speed.

"A fraction of a millimeter." So, a totally inconsequential amount.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Belisarius said:


> Recommend the Sony sound cancelling ones. May help filter ignoramuses claiming that steel chains or cables do not stretch. Sure, 500 years ago claiming the contrary, doing experiments got people burnt, but we evolved to a smarter process of understanding how the world works, based on empirical testing, proof and reasoning.


Explain how the chain plates _stretch_ enough to measure but through some magic the holes don't get bigger and the pins don't fall out. Think hard.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I'd like to see the numbers on how far a chain stretches with 50lb wt. The exact distance please! Oh yes, according to you it is time variable, so let's say 1 week.

I'm thinking a lot of structural engineers out there are getting worried their bldgs are about to 'stretch' down.

Someone is having way too much coffee in the morning.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Lombard said:


> I do. I have myself had it happen with my 5700 and know someone who has this problem with hers consistently at 1500 miles or less.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mind if I ask you why you want to change from a triple to a compact? Are you having trouble with front shifting? I have an older road bike with 5600 groupo and a triple on the front. Shifts flawlessly and shifters never fray cables.


Its not me. Its a friends bike. He wants to do an upgrade. He said he doesnt like the triple and wants to change it. I didnt really press on the details. Just doing him a favor turning the wrenches as he is not very mechanically inclined. He has had the bike a long time and has never replaced a cable (or done any maint from what I can tell) LOL


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

scottma said:


> Its not me. Its a friends bike. He wants to do an upgrade. He said he doesnt like the triple and wants to change it. I didnt really press on the details. Just doing him a favor turning the wrenches as he is not very mechanically inclined. He has had the bike a long time and has never replaced a cable (or done any maint from what I can tell) LOL


OK. I'm always perplexed at people who say they don't like triples. Some say doubles shift smoother, though I didn't find this to be true until the 5800/6800 came out. 

If your friend has never changed his cables and is itching for a new groupo, a fresh set of cables and housings may very well change his mind. Cables are everything when it comes to smooth shifting.


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