# Chinese groupsets from Alibaba - Fake or Cheap



## Butscut (Dec 21, 2010)

Hi guys, 

I have had a quick look through the threads on this site and cannot tell if this topic has already been discussed, so please excuse me if I am stirring a sleeping dog.

I am currently in the market for a new groupset and haev always fancied a SRAM red groupo. After a lot of searching and finding prices (overseas) of around US$1500-$2000 a frined put me onto the Alibaba.com website. On there, "manufacturers & distributors" are listing entire groupsets in boxes for US$400 delivered to Australia. 

Now when I was growing up Ma & Pa always told me that an offer that sounds too good to be true usually is. 

Is this the case here ? Are these groupos fake or just a bloody good bargin ?

Would be great to hear from anyone that has bought a set and what their views are....

Thanks again and please be gentle (I'm new here!!!) :thumbsup:


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I can sell you 25 pounds of cat crap for $10.00.
25 pounds of cat crap will not help propel your bike, but you can impress your friends, how little you paid for it.


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## Butscut (Dec 21, 2010)

Mr. Grumpy, 

Many thanks for your enlightning response...it really makes me wonder why your user name has such negative connotations .. :idea: 

Is anyone else able to provide me with a first hand review of what these products are actually like. Contrary to the previous posters suggestion, I am not out to impress with how little I spent on this kit, rather I am merely trying to get a decent high end groupset without hocking the family home. :mad2:


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

hmm... everyone you see is selling for 1500-2000, and you see one person from a scam filled website selling for 400 and you think it may be legitimate? 

common sense isn't so common I guess


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## Butscut (Dec 21, 2010)

I hear you and respect your views, but consider this...

I have a family friend who is the distributor for a fairly well know brand of Mountain Bike. Whilst one of his bikes retails for $5k, he sells it to the shop for $3k. The distributor also makes $1k as he is buying from the manufacturer for only $2k. In my simple maths thats around 150% markup between Distributor and Retail shop. 

Threads on this forum also suggest that carbon wheel sets from chinese factories can also be purchased for around $500 from Alibab (Yishun) or similar. These wheel sets get great reviews and have been compared to Sram wheels of a similar spec, yet SRAM wheels cost 3 times the price at $1,500, in this case a 200% markup. 

Is it therefore so surprising that I raise this question regarding the SRAM groupsets ? If you read the title of my post, I ask is this a good price or are they fake. I have absolutely no interest in buying fakes but would kick myself if I passed up an opportunity to buy genuine components at a factory price. 

You can knock me all I want, and question how i could possibly think such a deal to be original goods, but at the same time I am aware that cycling products, especially in Australia, have horrendous markups. Once again, I would welcome anyone who has purchased these groupsets to post a comment here on their experience - Good or Bad !!!


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## MisterC (May 26, 2007)

I have no experience, but I sympathize with your question. Some people are dicks.

Mr Grumpy. I'll take you up on that offer. $10 for you to gather 25 lbs of cat crap. Sounds like a steal.

And no litter in that cat crap. 25 lbs pure. Let me know where to paypal the money.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

A lot of those frames are off molds that haven't been sold to a big brand. The big difference is that you can't be sure how the CF is layered.


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## roadie01 (Apr 13, 2010)

Coming from a LBS and working in cost analysis for the past several years it is my opnion that there are many factors consumers often miss when they see the mark up on retail items. 

In addition to purchse cost there are other overhead costs to consider:
1. Shipping: This can be very expensive especially freight charges for items that occupy a considerable amount of space relative to the weight. Freight charges are typically based on weight and cube. 
2. Retail Overhead: The cost per square foot of space to display or store the item. This includes utilities, lease, mortage, or rent. The cost per square foot increases the more time the item sits on display. 
3. Labor Hours: How many man hours are spent in assembly, sales, and after sale support. 
4. Season: Most locations in the U.S. have fairly defined cycling seasons. (See cost per square foot) When was the last time you went to a local shop in January and saw it bare waiting for warmer months before stocking the inventory?

Taking each of the factors above into account it's not hard to see where that $1,000 difference between dealer cost and retail price goes.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Scam. You shop on Alibaba, you deserve to lose the cash in your pocket. Simple as that.

Chinese crap....nothing you'll ever see me buying...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Butscut said:


> Mr. Grumpy,
> 
> Many thanks for your enlightning response...it really makes me wonder why your user name has such negative connotations .. :idea:
> 
> *Is anyone else able to provide me with a first hand review of what these products are actually like.* Contrary to the previous posters suggestion, I am not out to impress with how little I spent on this kit, rather I am merely *trying to get a decent high end groupset without hocking the family home.* :mad2:


Bold #1. I wouldn't count on finding someone who has purchased from the same seller/scammer. Most people are too smart for that.

Bold #2. Whatever happened to realizing that better costs more? If I only have $1000 to spend on a bike, yes I am going to get the best bike I can for $1000. WITHOUT resorting to shady overseas deals. If you send that company $400 and then, once that one never shows up or arrives and you discover it's actually carved out of wood, you have to spend another $1200 to actually get the group you want; have you gained anything?

I can guarantee you that NO ONE can buy SRAM Red for $400. Not even bike companies.

Is it possible that the factory that makes Red is making more than they were contracted for and are selling those for a lot less than SRAM? Yes. Counterfeit/black market goods, of course, have no warranty at all.

I would recommend buying what you can afford - from legitimate sources. Force is almost identical to Red, but cheaper. Rival is almost as good as Force - easily the equivalent of 105/Ultegra - and a lot less than Red. The world doesn't work in such a way that everyone can buy whatever they want for what they want to spend. If you want a filet mignon but only have enough money for a hamburger; guess what you're going to get...


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

Butscut said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I have had a quick look through the threads on this site and cannot tell if this topic has already been discussed, so please excuse me if I am stirring a sleeping dog.
> 
> ...


I can relate... A lot of the other responses are from people that probably have not bought anything from the chinese manufacturers. There are several threads on frames, forks, handlebars, hubs, carbon wheels, rims, bottle cages etc. bought from chinese manufacturers and also from Alibaba sites; all with positive reviews ( I own a couple). There are also good reviews on "Sunrace" groups which seem to perform well but many posters "knock them down".
I have looked at the SRAM groups and wondered the same thing; obviously the issue is: how can you order without getting scammed? maybe just order one piece?
If they take credit cards or you pay via paypal with a credit card, then i think you are protected but i would check with my credit card company first. If they do not take these payment forms, I'd stay away. Also check other forums...
And if you order, please keep us posted.


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## cxl98904 (Apr 30, 2010)

*Chinese groupset*

I to thought of purchasing a SRAM groupset, but backed off after realizing they only took western union or wire transfer. There no way to protect yourself with these type of payment. The seller was very persistent in getting payment which turned me off. I have purchased carbon fiber frames and wheelsets from china and would not hesitate to do so again


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

If you just want to give $400 away and never see it again, there are quite a few charities that could use the money and will put it to better use. I suggest finding one in your local area- food banks and women's shelters always need help.

You seem to have $400 burning a hole in your pocket and you are ignoring all the advice you see that says "THIS IS A SCAM."

So, seriously, send your money to china and you are losing it.

Since you seem OK with losing it and getting no bike parts in return, Just give the money to charity. You'll feel better, you'll help some people out and you'll get a small tax deduction.


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## brujenn (Nov 26, 2007)

Butscut said:


> Thanks again and please be gentle (I'm new here!!!) :thumbsup:


You realize by now that this sort of statement is usually taken as a request to use some lube, right? 

It was a reasonable question, Butscut. It does seem likely to be a scam, and mathematically, this was a good place to check it out.


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/brilliance-bs6s-adac-crash-test-is-anything-but/


the chinese always have our best interests in heart, take this crash test of one of their wonderful cars

if their cars do this, I don't know why anyone would even chance a bike or bike componentry 


although this $400 "deal" would certainly start with our OP going to western union to send the money and have him receiving not fake parts, but nothing


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

I hear your argument about dealer pricing, but the margins are not as big as you think it is. A $1200 SRAM groupset selling for $400 new in box is almost surely either scam or fake or both. 

If you have a good relationship with your local shop, ask them how much they have to pay for that $1200 groupset. I guarantee it's a lot more than $400, probably nearly twice as much. 

Stop daydreaming and ride your bike :-D.


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## MX304 (Nov 25, 2010)

There are several people who have had very good luck with frames and wheels from a select group of the Chinese vendors. None of the proven reputable vendors have these group sets listed for sale. To me, that says it all. I need to e-mail Echo at Carbonzone tonight anyway, and I'll ask him if he has any info on those groups. So far he has been a very stand up guy and easy to deal with. Maybe I can get some info out of him. Do you have a link handy to a company or companies on Alibaba that have these listed?


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## cxl98904 (Apr 30, 2010)

alibaba has a section called ask alibaba it shows a lot of scam sites, unfortuntely you don't need much to be a gold star memeber. i read that you pay for that gold star and that scammers show up as one site and get complaints and just shut down and open as another web site to get other customers hooked


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

I have been working on anti-counterfeiting matters for the past year. Alibaba.com is a den of counterfeit [email protected] There might be some authentic branded something on alibaba, but absolutely nothing of the brands I've investigated was anything other than poorly-made look-alike counterfeit [email protected] You'd be better off buying lower-end authentic poducts with warranties and actual product support than the [email protected] available on alibaba.com. With luck, Customs will seize your alibaba [email protected] upon entry so you won't have to use it...


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Cost on just a set of SRAM Red shifters is approx $340usd. $400 for an entire group is too good to be true. I'm all for saving cash but this would be the same as throwing your money away.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> Scam. You shop on Alibaba, you deserve to lose the cash in your pocket. Simple as that.
> 
> Chinese crap....nothing you'll ever see me buying...


Since practically everything made on a bicycle is made in China and has a big name added, you just paid a premium for crap to have a label you can brag about.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I can't say that it is fake or not but most of those sites are scams. I did get a brand new NIB Dura Ace 7800 gruppo (except wheels)3 years ago for $700- the price that new take off 5600 groups were going for on ebay at the time. Forgot the name of the site since I didn't order it but my buddy got it for me for my birthday present. I remember they also had brand new NIB Ultegra 6603 shifters for $100 too. He bought for pair and sold them for $200 each- and they sold fast. Someone must know the site I'm talking about. They have these crazy sales for a minute or so and the stuff gets swept up fast. I know the site is still around. I'll ask my buddy and let you know the name.


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

terbennett said:


> Since practically everything made on a bicycle is made in China and has a big name added, you just paid a premium for crap to have a label you can brag about.


or a premium for a product that you may actually see vs a scam

just because you send someone $400 via wire transfer does not mean that they'll mail anything to you


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Sorry, for "pure" cat crap. it's $500 for 10 pounds......in advance....


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

terbennett said:


> Since practically everything made on a bicycle is made in China and has a big name added, you just paid a premium for crap to have a label you can brag about.


There's a HUGE difference between things engineered and developed by a company and production outsourced to china, and the sh*t they sell on Alibaba (and from those chinese manufacturers direct.) If you are intent on buying unbranded garbage direct from China, then you deserve inferior quality and service.

And you're damn right I paid a premium "so I can brag." I also paid a premium so that I can have warranty support and shop support when something breaks in a crash.

And to further make your point useless, my frame was produced in Tunisia, not China. So


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

re: alibaba......... I refuse to buy form anything linked to a site named after the 40 thieves...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Touch0Gray said:


> re: alibaba......... I refuse to buy form anything linked to a site named after the 40 thieves...


(to your wallet) OPEN SESAME!


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

robdamanii said:


> (to your wallet) OPEN SESAME!


ding.....ding....ding........


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

terbennett said:


> Since practically everything made on a bicycle is made in China and has a big name added, you just paid a premium for crap to have a label you can brag about.


china is a big place. Even if authentic branded goods are made there, there's not a single solitary reason or bit of evidence to believe that similar looking or branded goods come out of the same factory or are built to the same quality control. Good luck with your future Alibaba bargains...


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## chinarelloman (Dec 15, 2010)

I asked and cyclingyong.com has authetic shimano groups for about %50 off retail. It sounds like a good deal. If someone does order from them please let me know the the group sets were.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

chinarelloman said:


> I asked and cyclingyong.com has authetic shimano groups for about %50 off retail. It sounds like a good deal. If someone does order from them please let me know the the group sets were.


Uh huh.

I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I want to sell you. Very light use, too.


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## roscoe (Mar 9, 2010)

chinarelloman said:


> I asked and cyclingyong.com has authetic shimano groups for about %50 off retail. It sounds like a good deal. If someone does order from them please let me know the the group sets were.


I don't see how anything could possibly go wrong with that :thumbsup: why don't you try it


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

OP - Butscut - you might contact one of the legit Chinese companies that you've done business with, ask them if they can source these products and vouch for them.


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## octapotamus (Feb 11, 2011)

MX304 said:


> There are several people who have had very good luck with frames and wheels from a select group of the Chinese vendors. None of the proven reputable vendors have these group sets listed for sale. To me, that says it all. I need to e-mail Echo at Carbonzone tonight anyway, and I'll ask him if he has any info on those groups. So far he has been a very stand up guy and easy to deal with. Maybe I can get some info out of him. Do you have a link handy to a company or companies on Alibaba that have these listed?


I've placed an order for 50mm carbon clincher wheelset and... SRAM Red groupset! from Yishun. They must have got their hot little hands on a bunch in bulk for cheap. $1200 for the group in BB30, great value but realistic. That, and they're very reputable ie MANY people have reported good product and delivery times from them. They're not going to throw away their growing rep on a measly ~1K.. but we'll see.

Paypal or no way has been my main rule too..


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## octapotamus (Feb 11, 2011)

further to this, groupset arrived the other day. 100% authentic and brand new. all packed in 1 box with bubble wrap/card separating the bits, no SRAM packaging. I guess they could pack it more compactly this way. 

Crank, Shifters, Derailleurs and Brakes were all Red, Cassette was PG not OG, no biggie but would've been nice. Those OG cassettes look badass.

Also, FD was missing the mounting bolt and the Chain Powerlink was missing one half. Luckily I'm still waiting on Frame/Fork/Wheelset or I would've been mighty bummed out that I couldn't complete the build because of this..

As it is, I contacted Yishun (Kriss) and I'm told the little missing parts will be in the box with my wheels. We'll see. So far though, they have been EXCELLENT so I have full faith.

Do research, then, when you feel well informed, do more research.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

octapotamus said:


> further to this, groupset arrived the other day. 100% authentic and brand new. all packed in 1 box with bubble wrap/card separating the bits, *no SRAM packaging. I guess they could pack it more compactly this way. *
> 
> Crank, Shifters, Derailleurs and Brakes were all Red, Cassette was PG not OG, no biggie but would've been nice. Those OG cassettes look badass.
> 
> ...


No, it wasn't so it would fit in the box. It's because they're for the OEM market. ie: sold to bike manufacturers to install on a new bike. They aren't "supposed" to be sold to consumers. Bike shops can't buy OEM parts (which are HEAVILY discounted), which is why we can't compete with places like Yishun that sell grey market.


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## octapotamus (Feb 11, 2011)

ah shiiiit, that makes sense. how naughty. yeah, can't compete with that huh.. surely if you were buying enough of them you'd be able to get them quite cheap. wouldn't it just be a matter of MOQ or is it manufacturer principle that they don't sell OEM parts to shops? curious...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

octapotamus said:


> ah shiiiit, that makes sense. how naughty. yeah, can't compete with that huh.. surely if you were buying enough of them you'd be able to get them quite cheap. wouldn't it just be a matter of MOQ or is it manufacturer principle that they don't sell OEM parts to shops? curious...


I don't know what the reason is. It's the same as software being sold OEM. Microsoft requires that OEM software (no documentation) be sold only with computer hardware. That's why you see OEM versions of Windows selling on eBay with "old, broken hard drive" or sticks of memory. Sellers found a loophole in the wording somewhere in the OEM 'contract' - the actual notice on the bulk packaging says "Only to be included with a new PC".

China is a big place, though, and SRAM (and other companies) don't have the money or manpower to investigate all of the places selling their stuff. I'm sure there are also loopholes, as Performance/Nashbar sold OEM stuff (via catalog/website) for years. I think they've stopped now that Shimano made them an official seller.

Believe me, if I could get OEM stuff and (legally) sell it to customers who didn't mind not having packaging, I would.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

To the OP. Don't do it. Or ypu'll be posting in the "Scam Warning" forum.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

octapotamus said:


> further to this, groupset arrived the other day. 100% authentic and brand new. all packed in 1 box with bubble wrap/card separating the bits, no SRAM packaging. I guess they could pack it more compactly this way.
> 
> Crank, Shifters, Derailleurs and Brakes were all Red, Cassette was PG not OG, no biggie but would've been nice. Those OG cassettes look badass.
> 
> ...


Great! ... So what was the total savings you achieved?


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

I just bought a complete Super Record group off a seller on ebay. I paid 1650.00 for it, and it arrived all packaged with original boxes.
The seller is from the States, so he manages to buy from the Campagnolo distributer and make a small profit without gouging the customer like all the bike shops seem to. The transaction was problem free, I even got a phone call from them to confirm some info like the crank length needed.
This groupset is for my son's bike,I have bought a chinese frame for him as well.
I bought a Campy Record 11 group for my bike last season and paid $3,699 for it at the LBS. I was also charged $1799 for Campy Eurus wheels. Now I realise you can buy them from Ribble for around $750-800.
I bought the complete bike, a Cervelo S2 with Campy Record 11 with Erus wheels at the LBS last season. Total price was just over $8200 plus tax. I now realise I could paid less than half if I shopped on line instead of walking inn to the LBS and asking them to ripp me off.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mamamia said:


> I just bought a complete Super Record group off a seller on ebay. I paid 1650.00 for it, and it arrived all packaged with original boxes.
> The seller is from the States, so he manages to buy from the Campagnolo distributer and make a small profit without gouging the customer like all the bike shops seem to. The transaction was problem free, I even got a phone call from them to confirm some info like the crank length needed.
> This groupset is for my son's bike,I have bought a chinese frame for him as well.
> I bought a Campy Record 11 group for my bike last season and paid $3,699 for it at the LBS. I was also charged $1799 for Campy Eurus wheels. Now I realise you can buy them from Ribble for around $750-800.
> I bought the complete bike, a Cervelo S2 with Campy Record 11 with Erus wheels at the LBS last season. Total price was just over $8200 plus tax. I now realise I could paid less than half if I shopped on line instead of walking inn to the LBS and asking them to ripp me off.


Your line of thinking is so wrong that I won't even begin to comment. Suffice to say...you need to rethink your strategy of dealing with bikes and shops.


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Your line of thinking is so wrong that I won't even begin to comment. Suffice to say...you need to rethink your strategy of dealing with bikes and shops.



Why is it wrong?...I walked in a shop last summer for a new bike.It took over 4 weeks, and over $8200 to get the bike. 
This time around, for my son, It has been aboout the same amount of time and a lot less money. I bought him a carbon chinese frame, carbon chinese wheels,carbon chinese handlebars & stem, &seatpost, Campy Super Record group, tires, pedals from Ribble, and my total is less than $3000. What is wrong with that?
I was not aware the first time when I was taken advantage of at the LBS, but I blame myself. I have not bought a new bike in a long time, and treated myself last summer...no regrets, but I will not make that mistake again. I have kids that are in the sport, and with them getting older, and better they are needing new bikes. I will never walk into a LBS again and ask them to sell me a bike, I'll do what I've just done for my older boy, and research everything and buy it all on-line...then I'll go to the LBS with the bike and buy a water bottle, or some chain lube to piss them off.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mamamia said:


> Why is it wrong?...I walked in a shop last summer for a new bike.It took over 4 weeks, and over $8200 to get the bike.
> This time around, for my son, It has been aboout the same amount of time and a lot less money. I bought him a carbon chinese frame, carbon chinese wheels,carbon chinese handlebars & stem, &seatpost, Campy Super Record group, tires, pedals from Ribble, and my total is less than $3000. What is wrong with that?
> I was not aware the first time when I was taken advantage of at the LBS, but I blame myself. I have not bought a new bike in a long time, and treated myself last summer...no regrets, but I will not make that mistake again. I have kids that are in the sport, and with them getting older, and better they are needing new bikes. I will never walk into a LBS again and ask them to sell me a bike, I'll do what I've just done for my older boy, and research everything and buy it all on-line...then I'll go to the LBS with the bike and buy a water bottle, or some chain lube to piss them off.



You were not being "taken advantage of" because you were sold something at retail price. Bike shops have far far FAR higher overhead than chinese direct factories, and they actually exist to fulfill the rather large niche of people who like to see a product first, touch it, ride it, and have someone there to back up their purchase with warranty support and other beyond the sale support.

If you're perfectly fine with not having any local shop to run to when you need a quick part, some work done, a cable for a shifter or what have you, then continue to buy everything online and think that you're doing a good thing by saving a couple bucks.

Claiming that a shop "took advantage of you" when you simply told them what want and they charged you retail for it shows that your attitude toward local shops really is ass backwards.


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> You were not being "taken advantage of" because you were sold something at retail price. Bike shops have far far FAR higher overhead than chinese direct factories, and they actually exist to fulfill the rather large niche of people who like to see a product first, touch it, ride it, and have someone there to back up their purchase with warranty support and other beyond the sale support.
> 
> If you're perfectly fine with not having any local shop to run to when you need a quick part, some work done, a cable for a shifter or what have you, then continue to buy everything online and think that you're doing a good thing by saving a couple bucks.
> 
> Claiming that a shop "took advantage of you" when you simply told them what want and they charged you retail for it shows that your attitude toward local shops really is ass backwards.



The only thing "ass backwards" is the attidude from the local shops thinking that they can continue to ripp off their customers. 
There was a $2000 price difference in the price I paid for the Record 11 groupset at the LBS and what I paid for Super Record 11 off a retailer I found through ebay. You can't tell me that a store pays more for product wholesale than I can buy it for. If that was the case there would be no retail buisness.
You seem very pro bike shop, which I used to be as well until I learned how much difference in the actual cost of the parts.
If the stores were not blantatly ripping us off so much, I would continue to shop there, but I can't stomach over a $2000 difference in parts, and over $1000 difference in wheels. That is $3000 dollars I could have saved withouit even trying to find the frame cheaper, and that is not even using any chinese products, just shooping from ebay and ribble. 
Bike shops are not hard done by, the LBS near me just opened a 2nd store in a pretty affluent neighborhood, and the owner drives a nice Porche.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mamamia said:


> The only thing "ass backwards" is the attidude from the local shops thinking that they can continue to ripp off their customers.
> There was a $2000 price difference in the price I paid for the Record 11 groupset at the LBS and what I paid for Super Record 11 off a retailer I found through ebay. You can't tell me that a store pays more for product wholesale than I can buy it for. If that was the case there would be no retail buisness.
> You seem very pro bike shop, which I used to be as well until I learned how much difference in the actual cost of the parts.
> If the stores were not blantatly ripping us off so much, I would continue to shop there, but I can't stomach over a $2000 difference in parts, and over $1000 difference in wheels. That is $3000 dollars I could have saved withouit even trying to find the frame cheaper, and that is not even using any chinese products, just shooping from ebay and ribble.
> Bike shops are not hard done by, the LBS near me just opened a 2nd store in a pretty affluent neighborhood, and the owner drives a nice Porche.


I don't know if you're making all of this up, or if you actually believe it.
There isn't $2000 worth of profit in a Record group and a Super Record group COMBINED. PBK sells Campy for close-to or less-than shops in the US can buy for wholesale. Don't believe me? I'll post the wholesale price here, like I've done before. It isn't some big secret.

Yes, because one bike shop owner drives a Porsche, that means all of us are wealthy and make too much money off of the hard-working American workers... You must work in Government.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mamamia said:


> The only thing "ass backwards" is the attidude from the local shops thinking that they can continue to ripp off their customers.
> There was a $2000 price difference in the price I paid for the Record 11 groupset at the LBS and what I paid for Super Record 11 off a retailer I found through ebay. You can't tell me that a store pays more for product wholesale than I can buy it for. If that was the case there would be no retail buisness.
> You seem very pro bike shop, which I used to be as well until I learned how much difference in the actual cost of the parts.
> If the stores were not blantatly ripping us off so much, I would continue to shop there, but I can't stomach over a $2000 difference in parts, and over $1000 difference in wheels. That is $3000 dollars I could have saved withouit even trying to find the frame cheaper, and that is not even using any chinese products, just shooping from ebay and ribble.
> Bike shops are not hard done by, the LBS near me just opened a 2nd store in a pretty affluent neighborhood, and the owner drives a nice Porche.


Read...my...lips. You were not "ripped off." You received goods and services in exchange for the price they asked. That is not a rip off. You had the option to choose a lower end gruppo, or a different frame, or hell, even a different bike shop. But you didn't now you have buyer's remorse because you laid out money for the items you wanted. You've decided to go online and crusade against every LBS as scam artists who will steal your life savings and probably your dog if you don't watch them closely. That kind of thinking is both ridiculous and dangerous; they're getting paid fair price for the merchandise and service they provide. Don't like their price? Don't shop there. But just because you don't like their price does not make them Faust.

Yes, I'm pro LBS. I support ALL my local shops in some form or another, as they all excel in different things and carry different lines. I do certainly shop online, but I ALWAYS ask the LBS if they can match or come close to matching a price before I commit. You'd be very surprised at what they can do to make it worth while for you to shop with them. Then again, with an attitude like yours, I wouldn't expect the LBS to offer you a cup of coffee, let alone humor your request for a discount.


And one more point, yes, the end retailer can basically buy Campy parts for a touch over a US LBS's wholesale. Thank PBK and some other european e-commerce for that. The issue is well discussed here, among shops and among Campy lovers.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

mamamia said:


> The only thing "ass backwards" is the attidude from the local shops thinking that they can continue to ripp off their customers.
> There was a $2000 price difference in the price I paid for the Record 11 groupset at the LBS and what I paid for Super Record 11 off a retailer I found through ebay. You can't tell me that a store pays more for product wholesale than I can buy it for. If that was the case there would be no retail buisness.
> You seem very pro bike shop, which I used to be as well until I learned how much difference in the actual cost of the parts.
> If the stores were not blantatly ripping us off so much, I would continue to shop there, but I can't stomach over a $2000 difference in parts, and over $1000 difference in wheels. That is $3000 dollars I could have saved withouit even trying to find the frame cheaper, and that is not even using any chinese products, just shooping from ebay and ribble.
> Bike shops are not hard done by, the LBS near me just opened a 2nd store in a pretty affluent neighborhood, and the owner drives a nice Porche.


Just like the book business and the music business, the TRADITIONAL LBS business model will have to adapt or go out of business. There are valuable aspects to what they do, especially if you ride a lot BUT they have to be creative about adapting to how people shop these days...
One LBS owner near me is thinking about "branding his own bikes" by buying the chinese frames and wheels, keeping just a few size samples on the floor and ordering direct when a customer wants one.... I bought a couple of "brand bikes" from him but not my last one... But I do buy chains, cleats, lubricants, tubes, tires, bottles, saddles, jerseys, shorts, pumps, gloves, tools etc. Not a lot of "big ticket" items but it adds up; enough to keep his business going, I guess...


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Read...my...lips. You were not "ripped off." You received goods and services in exchange for the price they asked. That is not a rip off. You had the option to choose a lower end gruppo, or a different frame, or hell, even a different bike shop. But you didn't now you have buyer's remorse because you laid out money for the items you wanted. You've decided to go online and crusade against every LBS as scam artists who will steal your life savings and probably your dog if you don't watch them closely. That kind of thinking is both ridiculous and dangerous; they're getting paid fair price for the merchandise and service they provide. Don't like their price? Don't shop there. But just because you don't like their price does not make them Faust.
> 
> Yes, I'm pro LBS. I support ALL my local shops in some form or another, as they all excel in different things and carry different lines. I do certainly shop online, but I ALWAYS ask the LBS if they can match or come close to matching a price before I commit. You'd be very surprised at what they can do to make it worth while for you to shop with them. Then again, with an attitude like yours, I wouldn't expect the LBS to offer you a cup of coffee, let alone humor your request for a discount.
> 
> ...


Read my lips...I was ripped off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought the bike I did because I wanted it. I did not want a lower priced group, or a cheaper brand of bike.
I can afford the bike I bought , or I wouldn't have bought it. What bothers me, is that I am able to buy more expensive groupset...SuperRecord instead of Record for $2000 less that I was charged., and that you can buy my wheels online for $1000 less than I paid.
I blame myself for not researching the prices when I bought my bike, I just trusted my LBS. I new that I would be paying a premium for the convenience of shopping at a LBS, bot I never would have imagined the price difference for those items alone. That is why now that I am in the market for more bikes for my boys, I am being a little smatter with my money. I can build two complete bikes, with all top end for less than I spemt on my bike alone.
I don't care if bike shop owners dislike my attitude and won't give me a cup of coffee...I can buy alot of coffee with $3000.
All I ask is that the shop owners, try to be more competitive in their business, not just get as much as possible out of whoever blindingly pays what they ask. I should not have to go in there and try to bater them down on their prices...I just won't buy any large ticket items there because I know that they are just to expensive.
So, how is my thinking ridiculous and dangerous. Is it better to just walk into a LBS and hand over thousands of $ more than I need to just because you say it's better.
From now on I will never spend serious money at any LBS because of the greedy attitude they have.


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> I don't know if you're making all of this up, or if you actually believe it.
> There isn't $2000 worth of profit in a Record group and a Super Record group COMBINED. PBK sells Campy for close-to or less-than shops in the US can buy for wholesale. Don't believe me? I'll post the wholesale price here, like I've done before. It isn't some big secret.
> 
> Yes, because one bike shop owner drives a Porsche, that means all of us are wealthy and make too much money off of the hard-working American workers... You must work in Government.



I'm definatly not making this up, you can go on ebay or ribble and price up the groupset and wheels I've mentioned. Then you can find out what a LBS charges. In my case there is a $2000 difference from what I paid for Record, and what I just paid for Super Record, as well as the $1000 difference in the price I paid for Eurus wheels, and the price for them on Ribble.
Why don't you post the wholesale price then so we can see it. I bought the SuperRecord groupset off a US retailer who ordered it from the Camy distributer, how can he buy it then sell it for $1650 it costs so much for a LBS to order it?

Also, why does it matter where I work, does it make it OK to rip me off if I work in Government? (which I don't)


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mamamia said:


> Read my lips...I was ripped off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I bought the bike I did because I wanted it. I did not want a lower priced group, or a cheaper brand of bike.
> I can afford the bike I bought , or I wouldn't have bought it. What bothers me, is that I am able to buy more expensive groupset...SuperRecord instead of Record for $2000 less that I was charged., and that you can buy my wheels online for $1000 less than I paid.
> ...


Okay Sparky, you're throwing out some pretty wild claims there. Post the exact price you paid for a Record or Super Record group and I'll post exactly what wholesale is.

Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> Okay Sparky, you're throwing out some pretty wild claims there. Post the exact price you paid for a Record or Super Record group and I'll post exactly what wholesale is.
> 
> Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.


Why are you calling me sparky?

I have already listed the price paid...

ebay
$1650 us dollars for 2010 Camapgnolo Super Record groupset. 
$45 us dollars for shipping

VS

LBS
$3699 plus tax for 2010 CAmpagnolo Record groupset


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mamamia said:


> Read my lips...I was ripped off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I bought the bike I did because I wanted it. I did not want a lower priced group, or a cheaper brand of bike.
> I can afford the bike I bought , or I wouldn't have bought it. What bothers me, is that I am able to buy more expensive groupset...SuperRecord instead of Record for $2000 less that I was charged., and that you can buy my wheels online for $1000 less than I paid.
> ...


You just don't get it, or you're too thick TO get it.

A bike shop can't simply drop prices willy nilly. There are MAP prices to contend with, and pricing has to A) match the economy of the area and B) be a sustainable and growable model. The idea of asking a shop to match or work on a price is cutting into the margin of profit they make on that item, so it is entirely at their discretion. Online retailers have a great model in which they don't pay much in terms of staffing, rent, electricity, sewer, water, etc etc. Some of those online retailers don't even stock merchandise, but dorp ship from a distributor. Of course they can offer a lower price, since they don't need to pay all the overhead associated with a shop. Surely you realize that a brick and mortar store employing people and keeping items on shelves has an enormously higher overhead than someone selling gray market parts or selling frames out the back door of the factory, or even an online only retailer. 

The point you're absolutely missing here is that it's not greed that drives a shop owner. The famous saying is "if you want to make a million in a bike shop, start with ten million." This is NOT a lucrative business. Thinking that "well, anyone who is trying to cover their expenses and make enough profit to survive is greedy" is a narrow minded and entitled attitude. I'd highly doubt you've ever tried to manage the finances of a small business with the attitude you display here. You're spiteful, you're bitter, you're antagonistic. Yet, when you're stuck with a broken derailleur cable or destroyed tube and the only place to get one is the LBS, you'll be singing their praises that they had the item needed to get you back on the road. Oh yeah, and complain that you had to pay $4 for a piece of wire. 

Ugh. People these days. Everything is "gotta have the best for the cheapest, screw the man, they're greedy and I need to fight the power." Whatever happened to "you have to pay to play" I'll never know...


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mamamia said:


> Why are you calling me sparky?
> 
> I have already listed the price paid...
> 
> ...


I'm calling you Sparky because you're a little firecracker of anger and righteous indignation....


Wholesale cost for a 2010 Super Record Group from the 2nd largest distributor in the US:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]<table style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><td style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">*Campagnolo*


</td></tr><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><td style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><table style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><tr style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><td style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; background-image: url("https://www.jbimporters.com/web/_img/column-bg-grad.png");" height="120px" valign="TOP">








*Super Record 2010*
*Price: $1,714.65*
*View*




Keep in mind that this is the sale price, since 2010 is now "old". The 2011 SR group wholesales for over $1900.


BTW: I do agree that $3700 is too much....

</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>​​ [/FONT]


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> You just don't get it, or you're too thick TO get it.
> 
> A bike shop can't simply drop prices willy nilly. There are MAP prices to contend with, and pricing has to A) match the economy of the area and B) be a sustainable and growable model. The idea of asking a shop to match or work on a price is cutting into the margin of profit they make on that item, so it is entirely at their discretion. Online retailers have a great model in which they don't pay much in terms of staffing, rent, electricity, sewer, water, etc etc. Some of those online retailers don't even stock merchandise, but dorp ship from a distributor. Of course they can offer a lower price, since they don't need to pay all the overhead associated with a shop. Surely you realize that a brick and mortar store employing people and keeping items on shelves has an enormously higher overhead than someone selling gray market parts or selling frames out the back door of the factory, or even an online only retailer.
> 
> ...



what a Jerk.

I guess that I should subsidise a bike shop just to make them happy even though I can save thousands.

Go ahead and call me names if it makes you fell better, I gues you are one those greedy ass bike shop owners. I will make sure that I only buy things like bar tape and chain lube at the LBS.( I won't but tube anymore since they charge $10 for a tube that is less than $3 down the road at MEC.


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

PlatyPius said:


> I'm calling you Sparky because you're a little firecracker of anger and righteous indignation....
> 
> 
> Wholesale cost for a 2010 Super Record Group from the 2nd largest distributor in the US:
> ...



This is my point, if I was charged a resonable mark up of around $300-500 I wouldn't even complain, but a $2000 difference is excessive.

What is your retail cost to sell a Super Record group?


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mamamia said:


> This is my point, if I was charged a resonable mark up of around $300-500 I wouldn't even complain, but a $2000 difference is excessive.
> 
> What is your retail cost to sell a Super Record group?


$2470 for 2011 SR. (30% mark-up). Anything less than 30% mark-up ends up being charity work after costs (cumulative, not just one or two items)


I think 30% is pretty normal these days for drivetrain components. At least, for those shops who know there is an internet and you can buy parts on it.

Back in the day, mark-up on most drivetrain components was 100%, which it seems your LBS is still doing.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mamamia said:


> what a Jerk.
> 
> I guess that I should subsidise a bike shop just to make them happy even though I can save thousands.
> 
> Go ahead and call me names if it makes you fell better, I gues you are one those greedy ass bike shop owners. I will make sure that I only buy things like bar tape and chain lube at the LBS.( I won't but tube anymore since they charge $10 for a tube that is less than $3 down the road at MEC.


Maybe I am a jerk, but I don't own a shop. I just actually appreciate what they do as opposed to claiming they are all scam artists and ordering everything from China direct or ebay. 

Make no mistake, I don't disagree that you can get things cheaper online. I disagree with your militant attitude that a LBS "ripped you off" for charging you a markup that pays their bills, instead of giving product/service away at a loss. I'll never fault someone for that, but I WILL fault someone for refusing to understand why their thinking is incorrect and simply repeating rhetoric like "greedy LBS" and "ripped off."


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## MShaw (Jun 7, 2003)

With me, some things are marked up 100% and some aren't. Big stuff like component gruppos, etc are usually price-matched with PBS or one of the other big innerwebs sellers. The little stuff may be marked up 100% or even more depending on how small it is. 

What you're missing in the anti-LBS ranting is that lots of times we go over and above to help without getting paid for it. Take the guy that came in yesterday for a multi-tool, mirror, and bottles/cages. I mounted the cages for him without being asked, and when he asked about a new Red cassette cause his was 'making noise' we straightened the der. hanger and did a quick der adjustment for free. Try getting THAT out of your chinese e-tailer!

Yeah. We're all out to gouge the end-user. :nod You caught us! Good work detective.

M


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

mamamia said:


> what a Jerk.
> 
> I guess that I should subsidise a bike shop just to make them happy even though I can save thousands.
> 
> Go ahead and call me names if it makes you fell better, I gues you are one those greedy ass bike shop owners. I will make sure that I only buy things like bar tape and chain lube at the LBS.( I won't but tube anymore since they charge $10 for a tube that is less than $3 down the road at MEC.


Oh you're Canadian, that settles it even more. Canadian distributors are the worst. Although MEC isn't too bad, they're still too expensive, the price of a Conti Gatorskin from MEC can get you two at PBK, and you can pocket the tax. The wholesale from Norco, Cycles Lambert are actually more expensive than what consumers can buy online.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

MShaw said:


> With me, some things are marked up 100% and some aren't. Big stuff like component gruppos, etc are usually price-matched with PBS or one of the other big innerwebs sellers. *The little stuff may be marked up 100% or even more depending on how small it is. *
> 
> What you're missing in the anti-LBS ranting is that lots of times we go over and above to help without getting paid for it. Take the guy that came in yesterday for a multi-tool, mirror, and bottles/cages. I mounted the cages for him without being asked, and when he asked about a new Red cassette cause his was 'making noise' we straightened the der. hanger and did a quick der adjustment for free. Try getting THAT out of your chinese e-tailer!
> 
> ...


Yeah, some things are marked up more than 100% just so it's worth your time to sell them and stock them. 

To mamamia: Keep in mind that if you bought that SR group from me for the price I posted (if you were a local customer) you'd also get it installed for $30. That takes some of the sting out of the price.


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## mamamia (Feb 8, 2011)

robdamanii said:


> Maybe I am a jerk, but I don't own a shop. I just actually appreciate what they do as opposed to claiming they are all scam artists and ordering everything from China direct or ebay.
> 
> Make no mistake, I don't disagree that you can get things cheaper online. I disagree with your militant attitude that a LBS "ripped you off" for charging you a markup that pays their bills, instead of giving product/service away at a loss. I'll never fault someone for that, but I WILL fault someone for refusing to understand why their thinking is incorrect and simply repeating rhetoric like "greedy LBS" and "ripped off."



Like I said before, if I was charged a reasonable mark up , I wouldn't complain, but even Platy said what I paid was exessive. 20% to 30% mark up big items would be ok, not 100%. 
As far as I;m concerned the LBS blew it with me, I can appreciate that they have bills to pay, but so do I and they are not concerned about about me.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

mamamia said:


> Like I said before, if I was charged a reasonable mark up , I wouldn't complain, but even Platy said what I paid was exessive. 20% to 30% mark up big items would be ok, not 100%.
> As far as I;m concerned the LBS blew it with me, I can appreciate that they have bills to pay, but so do I and they are not concerned about about me.


Your last sentence is what you should have said from the get go. It should be an attitude of "I'm not happy with what they charged, but that's the price they charged and I didn't think twice about it" not "DUDE! They ripped me off and are trying to fund their Porsche by my purchase! Eff them man!"

As I said before, I'm not above buying online first. But I at least give the shop a chance to get the sale, as opposed to claiming they're out to screw me without even talking to them first.


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