# Kestrel RT800



## Poppadaddio

It's interesting to compare and contrast Francisco Mancebo's Rock Racing Kestrel RT800 that he rode to a stage victory in the Tour of California with the one Bikesdirect sells.

Bikesdirect website:
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/kestrel/rt800.htm

Gallery at Cyclingnews:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ry-francisco_mancebo_rock_racing_kestrelRT800


----------



## tron

This is not meant as a bash. I am just curious what you found interesting about it? Because they are so similar? Yeah, makes me think that the bd bike is a pretty good deal. Incidentally, I think they reported that mancebos' ride came in at somewhere over 16 pounds.


----------



## Poppadaddio

*Interesting*

"Interesting"
My English teachers would mark me down for using such a meaningless word.
I agree that the BD bike looks like a good deal when you see what the pro is riding -- that's the most interesting fact. Since it is sold on BD, it is by (my) definition not a name brand. And yet when it is fitted to suit and ridden by a pro it's as fast as any.
Mancebo's has tubulars. His tire and wheel choice probably varies from stage to stage. The pro's bike has more carbon fiber. The frames appear to be identical.
What I'm getting down to, is that the basic frame of the bike is UNimportant -- it's the components and the way it's fitted. When cost is no object, and when you are sponsored you can opt for the latest and greatest.
Those carbon wheel/tubular tires probably cost as much as BD's whole bike. BD's wheels are just silly. But I'm sure they probably work just fine and cost a whole lot less.
Nothing wrong with the Ultegra brakeset on BD's, in my opinion.
Mancebo's has Dura-Ace everything, but there's nothin that bad about he way the BD bike is fitted out.
Mancebo's has an 11-23 Dura-Ace cassette vs. a 12-23 Ultegra on the BD. Just between you and me and the readers of this forum, I don't spin out in my 12 cog that often, but if I thought I was going to, switching cassettes is pretty easy.
I really like the conventional seat post compared to the "aero profile" seat post, another sales gimmick. It's as if the team mechanics said "No, we ain't gonna mess with that. You can just push a little extra wind."
Makes you wonder about those "$10,000" Treks. I don't see it.
Is the DA crank any better than the Truvative carbon crank? 
Well, anyway, I thought it was interesting.


----------



## tron

No. It is, I was just wondering what your angle was. My thoughts on the whole thing are that due to the fact that component parts are so light, having the absolutely lightest frame weight is irrelevant. This Kestrel frame must be proportionately heavier than others to have Mancebo's part list and be that weight. Also, the BD website does not list the weight of the total bike, which it usually does.

Anyway, good solid build by BD, not much to gripe about. To your point about the 10,000 treks. Makes you wonder where the money goes. Bike prices seem to be getting out of control lately. In my own mind, I try to look for value of the equipment versus having what is the absolute top of the line. I am not a racer so 105, ultegra and XT components work just fine for me.


----------



## 20sMotoSpirit

Alot of the money that goes into a Trek is a in the testing of parts. When I worked for my shop last summer. my boss would talk and talk about the amount of testing that goes into the frame and making the materials better. All of that R&D gets filtered down to the consumer. But you are right, I dont see the value in the price for carbon frames. Actually, a lot of people have gone back to custom steel bikes. For those of you who don't know, Steel and carbon have some of the same properties, which is why most steel frames have the same road dampening effects as carbon. Carbon does tend to dampen more road shock, but steel has a larger modulus of elasticity.

OH BTW, Trek's bike manufacturing is between US and Overseas.

All AL bikes - Overseas (1, 2 series and WSD)
All CF bikes below 4.9 (4 series and WSD)
The 5 series and 6 series bikes are US made, which is why there is a 12-1400 price difference depending on the model.


----------



## covenant

20sMotoSpirit said:


> Actually, a lot of people have gone back to custom steel bikes.


Not in Europe, the infactuation with steel is mainly an American preoccupation.
Other than Torelli, who makes a steel road frame in Europe? 
*edit* Cinelli does too...


----------



## Ride-Fly

covenant said:


> Not in Europe, the infactuation with steel is mainly an American preoccupation.
> Other than Torelli, who makes a steel road frame in Europe?
> *edit* Cinelli does too...


sorry for the threadjack but aren't newer torelli steel frames all made in taiwan now? i thought they too had moved production overseas. they are nice frames regardless.

as for production frames, gios compact pro, derosa neo primato, colnago master x-light, and all tomassini frames are still 100% made in italy- not just "finished" in italy.

as for kestrels, the rt700 won bike of the year in '07 or '08 from outside magazine. yeah, i know that doesn't hold as much weight as winning the BOY from a legit bike rag but still, outside mag is not totally out of their element. i had a kestrel talon which i liked but it just didn't fit me well so i sold it. at higher speeds, it cut through the air like tri bike.


----------



## cyclust

It's nice to see some interest in Kestrels again. I had a few of the original Kestel 4000's back in the 80's, and back then, those things were really exotic! I was a big Kestrel fan back then, but they sure have let the rest of the industry pass them by. It seems like every product they come out with these days is just a step behind the competition. The new RT 700 and 800's look pretty nice, but now that I'm older I prefer a tall head tube, as in a Spec. Roubaix or Cdale Synapse, and the Kestrel's just have too short of a head tube for an old fart like me. They also have a very limited selection of models. Perhaps some good exposure will up their sales and they can someday regain their former status.


----------



## rideonemoretime

Fuji (ASI) bought Kestrel last year and these are the old inventory that they are blowing out. Rock Racing was on Fuji for a minute, but now on Kestrel. Really the same thing - Hopefully with the new infusion to Kestrel, they will start making innovative bikes again - it has been pretty lame for the last few years. The Talon as BOY - Maybee Outside didn't get very many other bikes to test.


----------



## Ride-Fly

*you mis-read...*



rideonemoretime said:


> Fuji (ASI) bought Kestrel last year and these are the old inventory that they are blowing out. Rock Racing was on Fuji for a minute, but now on Kestrel. Really the same thing - Hopefully with the new infusion to Kestrel, they will start making innovative bikes again - it has been pretty lame for the last few years. The Talon as BOY - Maybee Outside didn't get very many other bikes to test.


it was the rt700 2 yrs ago. but i think your last sentence stills holds some truth to it.


----------



## covenant

Ride-Fly said:


> as for production frames, gios compact pro, derosa neo primato, colnago master x-light, and all tomassini frames are still 100% made in italy- not just "finished" in italy.


Good to know :thumbsup:


----------



## badge118

covenant said:


> Not in Europe, the infactuation with steel is mainly an American preoccupation.
> Other than Torelli, who makes a steel road frame in Europe?
> *edit* Cinelli does too...



hmmmm let me see. Pegoretti (ONLY makes Steel and Aluminum), Colnago (Master X Light), DeRosa (Neo-Primato), Bianchi, Cyfac (Pantere), and NUMEROUS smaller builders (Eurocentric versions of say Spectrum) all make steel bikes and with the possible exception of Bianchi they are all made in Europe.


----------



## savesthedre

I recently purchase an Rt800 from a bike shop for about 2700 with all 105. I thought about going bd and get the same price only with dura ace. But after some thorough research I found one common theme. Everyone who was happy had some tech experience putting bikes together and how to upgrade. So the crap cassette that wears out in a 100 miles because it's sora or something cheaper doesn't really hold a lot of weight. Anything that has a label on the bd ones are dura ace, but the cables, chains sprockets bottom brackets are crap. My bike is 105 through out. So knowing I have reliable parts someone I can take it to and a great custum fitting. The decision to go to a dealer was quite clear. 
As far as the bike goes it's amazing. My dad rides an Orca and although i would much rather have scram red rather than 105 I still love the bike. Over a 100 miles in two weeks in southern colorado in april, I can't get off this bike!


----------



## Poppadaddio

The two Ultegra bikes that I bought from BD were "pure" Shimano -- cranks, cassettes, chains, BRAKES, cables, in addition to the shifters and derailers. Even the wheels on one of them. They show every component on their ads. In some cases there is a model with a non-Shimano crank and non-Shimano brakes for less money. You can decide if the Shimano brand name is worth it. The Shimano cranks and brakes appear to be some of the more expensive components in the group because the same bike with FSA is much less.


----------



## savesthedre

I'm sure they were and by no means am I bashing BD I was just letting people know how I came to my decision based on my research.


----------



## savesthedre

Also, did you buy a kestrel through BD or one of their house brands?


----------



## zion rasta

*Dude, you got ripped!*



savesthedre said:


> I recently purchase an Rt800 from a bike shop for about 2700 with all 105. I thought about going bd and get the same price only with dura ace. But after some thorough research I found one common theme. Everyone who was happy had some tech experience putting bikes together and how to upgrade. So the crap cassette that wears out in a 100 miles because it's sora or something cheaper doesn't really hold a lot of weight. Anything that has a label on the bd ones are dura ace, but the cables, chains sprockets bottom brackets are crap. My bike is 105 through out. So knowing I have reliable parts someone I can take it to and a great custum fitting. The decision to go to a dealer was quite clear.
> As far as the bike goes it's amazing. My dad rides an Orca and although i would much rather have scram red rather than 105 I still love the bike. Over a 100 miles in two weeks in southern colorado in april, I can't get off this bike!



For $300 more bucks you could have had Full Dura Ace!!!!!!! And better wheels. Your analysis is wron as you could take any bike to any bike shop for assembly. It would have cost you $50 for the assembly but you would have had full Dura Ace which alone retails for about $2500 for the grouppo.

I do not care what anyone says, a $3000 Kestrel RT-800 full Dura Ace 7900 is a steal.

I have the RT-900 SL and paid $3699 for a custom build. Meaning, I got to pick what size cranks, cassette, stem, bars, etc. Full SRAM red, Ksyrium SLs. What a rocket!


----------



## savesthedre

*i am not wrong*

For $300 bucks i would of had durace derailers and brakes and cranks, thats it. the cassette would have sora at best along with bottom bracket. Cables would have been crap and worn out in a month. I also had it prof. fitted so add another 300 bucks to our 3 grand durace. After replacing all the housing cables bottom bracket and cassetter i'm looking at a saving of over a grand. Not to mention the free pedals that came with it and all brake in work that has been done for free and the group rides i have been involved with and the new people i meet. so having durace written on the parts that are seen really weren't worth it. I mean shop locally or go to walmart i mean BD.
So that is what made my decision easy.
How do you like the rt 900?


----------



## zion rasta

*Well, not quite*



savesthedre said:


> For $300 bucks i would of had durace derailers and brakes and cranks, thats it. the cassette would have sora at best along with bottom bracket. Cables would have been crap and worn out in a month. I also had it prof. fitted so add another 300 bucks to our 3 grand durace. After replacing all the housing cables bottom bracket and cassetter i'm looking at a saving of over a grand. Not to mention the free pedals that came with it and all brake in work that has been done for free and the group rides i have been involved with and the new people i meet. so having durace written on the parts that are seen really weren't worth it. I mean shop locally or go to walmart i mean BD.
> So that is what made my decision easy.
> How do you like the rt 900?



I am not sure where are you getting your data but here is the build from BD or walmart as you referred to them:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/kestrel/rt800_09.htm

I put together my buddy's RT-800 and inspected every part. it is a full dura ace group. The only thing that was mid grade were the wheels which are the Equipe....

The RT-900 is a rocket and it rides very welll. I am very happy with it...

Enjoy your bike. I have never got a "pro" build that fits right on real life. 

I ride a 59cm with a 110mm stem and that feels good. I have 20mm of spacers under the stem but it feels tall now so I am going to 10mm. I started with 40mm under the stem 

BTW Bike shops hate Bikes Direct. They got every one by their balls on the supply chain... If you ask me, that is a Harvard Business case waiting to happen....


----------



## zion rasta

*If you are asking me??*



savesthedre said:


> Also, did you buy a kestrel through BD or one of their house brands?



I got my RT-900 here:
http://www.bicycledoctorusa.com/

They are in Bloomington, IN. I lived in Indy for 5 years and rode MTB at the Brown County State Park which is very close to Bloomington...

BD did not have the RT-900. And I found Bicycle Doctor when searching for the RT-900 and talked to Steve and he gave me a great deal $3699 and I could pick all the parts sizes in the SRAM Red grouppo, bars, stem, etc. So it was a semi custom build.
I did not mind paying the extra $700 compared to BD because I was getting Ksyrium SLs and I could pick my part sizes which you can not do with BD.


----------



## savesthedre

Awsome I'm glad you like your bike. My bike fit was a two hour measuring fest. I no longer have back pain and knee pain like i did on my lemond and redline. I was a lot of small things i didn't think would matter like where the hoods are and seat alignment.

I refer to bd as walmart because of the buisness attitude. Sacrifice quality for quantity. The products walmart sells are below what other standards are, thus driving the price down so you can buy underwear for a buck but they tear within a month. But of course you can take them back and get another pair haha. Same with their produce. Because bikes direct can sell quantity and get last years models cheap they can cheat the customer out of service. If something came wrong or breaks they can replace do to their overstocking of items. I tend to not go for this because I enjoy having a long term relationship with my shop. As stuff breaks my shop can do a quality repair job. If bd puts them out of buis then I'm screwed. I don't mean to sound preachy but I mean really organic vs. chemicals. local shop vs bd. Same thing...


----------



## EverydayRide

zion rasta,

I'm thinking about the RT-800 2009 for $2995.00 My issue is, I ride a 58 cm centre BB to top seat tube [the centre BB to centre top tube measurement is 55.5 cm SuperSix Cannondale]. The RT-800 has a 57cm centre to centre measurement. It's very confusing trying to figure out if this frame will be too big? So the 59 cm you're presently riding ...that's a centre to centre measurement via Kestrel's sizing geometry chart - correct? What size frame do you ride centre BB to top seat tube? Mind me asking?



zion rasta said:


> I am not sure where are you getting your data but here is the build from BD or walmart as you referred to them:
> 
> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/kestrel/rt800_09.htm
> 
> I put together my buddy's RT-800 and inspected every part. it is a full dura ace group. The only thing that was mid grade were the wheels which are the Equipe....
> 
> The RT-900 is a rocket and it rides very welll. I am very happy with it...
> 
> Enjoy your bike. I have never got a "pro" build that fits right on real life.
> 
> I ride a 59cm with a 110mm stem and that feels good. I have 20mm of spacers under the stem but it feels tall now so I am going to 10mm. I started with 40mm under the stem
> 
> BTW Bike shops hate Bikes Direct. They got every one by their balls on the supply chain... If you ask me, that is a Harvard Business case waiting to happen....


----------



## savesthedre

*sizing*

mine is a 51 cm. I'm not sure all the specs but I had mine fitted. But I was riding a 53 cm lemond. I generally was told to go a size smaller since they go odd numbers.

hope this helps


----------



## EverydayRide

I telephoned Bloomington, Indiana and spoke to the owner of BikeDocteurUSA. Very nice and pleasant person to deal with, very knowledgeable.


savesthedre said:


> mine is a 51 cm. I'm not sure all the specs but I had mine fitted. But I was riding a 53 cm lemond. I generally was told to go a size smaller since they go odd numbers.
> 
> hope this helps


----------



## zion rasta

*No problem Brother, here is your size....*



EverydayRide said:


> zion rasta,
> 
> I'm thinking about the RT-800 2009 for $2995.00 My issue is, I ride a 58 cm centre BB to top seat tube [the centre BB to centre top tube measurement is 55.5 cm SuperSix Cannondale]. The RT-800 has a 57cm centre to centre measurement. It's very confusing trying to figure out if this frame will be too big? So the 59 cm you're presently riding ...that's a centre to centre measurement via Kestrel's sizing geometry chart - correct? What size frame do you ride centre BB to top seat tube? Mind me asking?


The measurement you really care about is Effective top tube or Horizontal Top tube. Based on the data below, I determined that you need a 59cm Kestrel RT-800:thumbsup: 
Note that the Super six has a more sloping tube than the Kestrel. The Kestrel is a million times better in my opinion.

Your Cannondale Supper six:
- 58cm CC to Toptube
- 59.0 CM Horizontal Top tube Length (Eff top tube)

The comparable size for the Kestrel RT-800:
-59cm cente to center
-58.6cm Horizontal Top Tube.


----------



## zion rasta

*Sorry, you need a 57cm RT-800*



EverydayRide said:


> zion rasta,
> 
> I'm thinking about the RT-800 2009 for $2995.00 My issue is, I ride a 58 cm centre BB to top seat tube [the centre BB to centre top tube measurement is 55.5 cm SuperSix Cannondale]. The RT-800 has a 57cm centre to centre measurement. It's very confusing trying to figure out if this frame will be too big? So the 59 cm you're presently riding ...that's a centre to centre measurement via Kestrel's sizing geometry chart - correct? What size frame do you ride centre BB to top seat tube? Mind me asking?



Given this data by you on another thread, you are a 57cm kestrel RT-800 no sweat!

http://www.bicycling.com/gear/detail...2733-0,00.html
Read that review. It states that the top tube is more/less a 58 cm sizing frame and the sloping top tube offsets the over all real measure centre BB to top tube. So a 56cm is more close to a 58cm. The wheel base is identical to my Cannondale Super Six at 996 v. Motobecane Ti at 995

Specs on 58 cm HiMod Super Six

As for the crank arm length, I live in pretty hilly areas and dislike riding flats, so the preferences are climbing terrain.


----------



## EverydayRide

zion rasta said:


> Your Cannondale Supper six:
> - 58cm CC to Toptube
> - 59.0 CM Horizontal Top tube Length (Eff top tube)


The Cannondale has a 55.5 cm centre bb to centre top tube line __________ the line crossing seat tube to the top tube. To the top of top tube line it's 56.3 cm and there is an extension off that measured mark to the clamp at top of the seat tube that reads at 58cm. Cannondale calls my 58 cm and observed 56 cm. See notation in last thumb nail below.

Overall I think it's a 57 cm I'll need.:thumbsup: 


My present bike 
Click to Enlarge seat post area


Geometry specs 
Thumbnail click to enlarge

The comparable size for the Kestrel RT-800:
-59cm cente to center
-58.6cm Horizontal Top Tube.[/QUOTE]


----------



## EverydayRide

zion rasta said:


> Given this data by you on another thread, you are a 57cm kestrel RT-800 no sweat!


In case you're wondering, I've cooked my SuperSix. The crank let go, alloyed thread pedal inserts on the carbon FSA Si couple days ago and I have cracks on the rear stays. The bike is going to be replaced under warranty and it'll take a month or two [I've rode it over 10,000 miles in 15 months]. I bought it Fev 2009. So I'm looking to get away from the BB30 set-up, move into Sram and was thinking about the Ti [dropping it won't make it burst] but discovered the complete deal from Indiana through your guy there. I have over 2,000 miles in this season alone commuting here in Connecticut.


My mileage number click to enlarge


Cracks in Stays


----------



## zion rasta

*I would take the Carbon over the ti any day*



EverydayRide said:


> In case you're wondering, I've cooked my SuperSix. The crank let go, alloyed thread pedal inserts on the carbon FSA Si couple days ago and I have cracks on the rear stays. The bike is going to be replaced under warranty and it'll take a month or two [I've rode it over 10,000 miles in 15 months]. I bought it Fev 2009. So I'm looking to get away from the BB30 set-up, move into Sram and was thinking about the Ti [dropping it won't make it burst] but discovered the complete deal from Indiana through your guy there. I have over 2,000 miles in this season alone commuting here in Connecticut.
> 
> 
> My mileage number click to enlarge
> 
> 
> Cracks in Stays


Remember you'll get full dura ace with the BD Kestrel, If you buy from Bicycle doctor you can get an RT-900 for a bit more but well worth it:thumbsup:


----------



## EverydayRide

zion rasta said:


> Remember you'll get full dura ace with the BD Kestrel, If you buy from Bicycle doctor you can get an RT-900 for a bit more but well worth it:thumbsup:


I won't do the BD route. I'm sold on the SRAM set-up and the 2009 kestrel RT-900!!!!!!! Your guy in Indiana knows his stuff very-very well. That I appreciate great-fully!  



Bicycle Docteur USA said:


> 2009 RT-900 with Sram Red Group: Do not purchase this bike till you get our price!
> 
> King of the Carbon Fiber Bikes, has the same group Lance will use in 2009.


----------



## parlorbikes

All Torelli steel frames are still made in Italy. They do make carbon and their complete sub $1000 path racer in Tiawan, but who doesn't. I would almost not trust carbon made in Tiawan or China. Well, unless Zipp starts making a frame.


----------



## zion rasta

*What!!!???*



parlorbikes said:


> All Torelli steel frames are still made in Italy. They do make carbon and their complete sub $1000 path racer in Tiawan, but who doesn't. I would almost not trust carbon made in Tiawan or China. Well, unless Zipp starts making a frame.


So are you saying about 99% of people who have a carbon bike should not trust it?

Dude, you are either a newbbie or you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. 

98% of the carbon frames are made in China. I rather ride a carbon frame from the Chinese factories than from some mom and pop shop in italy.


----------



## parlorbikes

I'm sorry, I typed to fast. What I meant was, I would almost not trust carbon made anywhere other than China or Taiwan. Sometimes I hit post before checking myself. Sorry for the confusion Zion.

My mistake.


----------



## savesthedre

also Taiwan is the leading carbon manufacture in the world. China I can see not trusting, but Taiwan has it together.


----------



## parlorbikes

Just to let you know, most carbon frames are made in China, and assembled or painted in Tiawan. This gives them the ability to say "made in Taiwan". Even though the carbon assembly is done in mainland China, there is very little that needs to be done by law in Taiwan to receive the "made in Tiawan" sticker. Sometimes it is just paint/decals and or attatching parts to the frame to get this denotation.


----------



## zion rasta

Yep, Everyone grab an international business law book. What parlobikes says is right.

The majority of the carbon molds are in china. The bike companies pay for the molds and put them in their balance sheet. The factories then do the work. 
So engineers design the frames in the US or from some house anywhere. Then send the design to some mold manufacturer to build which actually comes from china. Then they pay for the mold and give it to some carbon fiber making plant to manufacture the bike.

Anyway, who gives a rats where is made. We are in a global economy. There is no such thing, nor pride, really to say made in US or Italy or whatever.

We want fast, light, stiff, cool, durable, and cheap delivered at my house. Where it comes from, I could care less.


----------

