# Weight of paint?



## AlanS

I have a Ti Dean frame...I think I want it painted/ or powercoated. BUT...weight!!! How much does paint or powdercoat add to the frame?


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## undies

An ounce or three at most, I would guess. It will certainly weigh less than whatever you had for breakfast. 

You should be more concerned about the fashion faux pas of painting over titanium :aureola:


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## California L33

I know you can calculate the weight of dry paint- it's required before painting aircraft, but I don't have the formula. On a bike it can't be much.


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## exracer

942 lbs

Sigh, things some people worry about truely makes me wonder.


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## BLUE BOY

exracer said:


> 942 lbs


 A good clear coat over that new paint is only an extra 50 lbs.


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## laffeaux

It's about 100g (so around 3 ounces). At least that's what the difference between an anodized and painted version of a mountain bike frame that I own. A road bike might be a tad less as it has less surface area to paint (compared to a full suspension mountain bike).


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## AlanS

exracer said:


> 942 lbs
> 
> Sigh, things some people worry about truely makes me wonder.


This is the "Save Some Weight" forum, isn't it? Why would this make you wonder? We, who visit this forum, are curious about weight... You came by to visit also...THAT makes me wonder!


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## Keeping up with Junior

*Sounds about right...*



laffeaux said:


> It's about 100g (so around 3 ounces). At least that's what the difference between an anodized and painted version of a mountain bike frame that I own...


When I was getting my tandem the quoted difference was about a half pound so your number sounds about right.


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## exracer

> This is the "Save Some Weight" forum, isn't it? Why would this make you wonder? We, who visit this forum, are curious about weight... You came by to visit also...THAT makes me wonder


Because, in the grand scheme of things (and this is my own opinion) it's totally ridiculous. There is no benefit to running a bare frame or one that is painted. There is absolutely ZERO performance gain from it. It's not going to make you climb better, go faster or make your bike handle better. It is purely a matter of PERSONAL CHOICE. You are worried over a couple of OZ's of paint; I'd be more concerned about taking 3-4 ounces off my wheels or drive train. The only thing you could say is "my unpainted frame is 2-3 oz's lighter than that painted one over there". Bfd. 

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, that's just me. Having raced road bikes and mountain bikes; I got along just fine without having the latest, greatest, lightest techno geek bike out there. When I raced motorcycles; if it didn't make the bike go faster or handle better; it wasn't on my bike. While weight is a concern; I don't make it an over riding priority. I was wasn't sitting going "well, this pipe is 6 oz lighter than that pipe, costs $150 more but only gives me the same power as the pipe I have", "What a deal". It is the man on the machine that makes the difference. 

Now if you said "I'm getting a Dean, paint or no paint?" instead of making it an issue of weight; the conversation would be different.


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## California L33

There are people who take pride in building the lightest bike possible as an exercise. If the OP was one of those then it would be easy to decide- no paint, but apparently there are other factors. 

Trek engineers said they filed Lance's cable guides to make them as light as possible. I doubt it saved him a single second on his combined TDFs, but if he lost, at least they could have said, "We did everything we could." Which reminds me of the Indy 500 with a 3 foot difference between first and second place. With an average speed of around 200 MPH those 3 feet were a ridiculously small time increment.


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## terzo rene

It's also inaccurate to say there is zero performance gain from a 100g weight loss, at least uphill. It's not large but it certainly doesn't hurt and if you are getting a new custom frame no paint is cheaper too.


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## exracer

> It's also inaccurate to say there is zero performance gain from a 100g weight loss, at least uphill.


From personal experience, I can honestly say that I have never noticed a 100g of dead weight difference. I could call all the guys that I raced with and they would probably say the same thing. You put that same 100g into rotational weight and you would probably get a different story. 



> Trek engineers said they filed Lance's cable guides to make them as light as possible


Engineers tend to over think things all the time. This could be one of them. I work with engineers every day, I know.



> Which reminds me of the Indy 500 with a 3 foot difference between first and second place. With an average speed of around 200 MPH those 3 feet were a ridiculously small time increment


When I raced motocycles I fought for every foot, every hundredth of a second, no matter how ridiculously small the margin was; I was out the to beat the other guy. The day when you race for second place, you let me know.

If the OP wants to build a light bike, more power to him but to me paint is not worth the effort thinking about it. Hate to have a different opinion from everybody else.


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## Psychler

Hey...It's approaching winter...my bike will be apart...the thought of having it painted came upon me...I was curious what the weight gain would be...I asked in a forum where this kind of thing is 'accepted'. Little did I know that one has to be careful about WHAT part they ask about. For that matter, if I had asked about changing my seat, is that suitable for weight scrutiny? Or only wheels/ rotational weight? 
For the record...I NEVER said, or even implied that the heavier/ painted bike would be a detriment to my times...I was merely curious. 
Geez, it doesn't take much to get some guys worked up, does it. 
Now, let me go decide if I want to add three oz. to my frame...hmmmmm...


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## RHankey

Psychler - If it makes you feel any better, I had one of my Ti/Carbon Seven's half painted with a two town paint scheme purely for the cosmetics. Sure paint adds a few grams, but if you're concerned about weight, there are other places to trim far more grams and still be plenty durable. Despite the paint, this particular Seven built out to a 14lb fully assembled bike (including bottle cages).

Painted or bare, I'm sure your Dean will look wonderful, and I doubt you'll feel any difference in the weight either way.


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## Bob Ross

Along similar lines: How much does the air inside the frame's tubes weigh? Do bikes with oversize tubes weigh more than bikes with traditional small-diameter cylindrical tubes because there's more air inside the frame? I know some folks have tried filling their tires with helium; has anyone ever evacuated the air from their frame & filled it with helium (or left it a vacuum)?


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## ferday

i'd love to see how someone could completely sealed the frame to keep the helium/vacuum in there. i imagine the amount of sealant and such that would be required would weigh more than the weight you lost from evacuating the air.


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## laffeaux

exracer said:


> Because, in the grand scheme of things (and this is my own opinion) it's totally ridiculous. There is no benefit to running a bare frame or one that is painted. There is absolutely ZERO performance gain from it. It's not going to make you climb better, go faster or make your bike handle better. It is purely a matter of PERSONAL CHOICE. You are worried over a couple of OZ's of paint; I'd be more concerned about taking 3-4 ounces off my wheels or drive train. The only thing you could say is "my unpainted frame is 2-3 oz's lighter than that painted one over there". Bfd.


In my case, I opted for an anodized mountain bike frame instead of paint, because I liked the finish better. A lot of people like the look of an anodized frame, or for that matter a polished aluminum frame, and if you happen to save 100g and get a nice finish, isn't that okay?

Titanium frame have the same potential weight savings benefit. A bare frame looks nice. A painted frame weights more, and some would argue looks less nice.


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## California L33

Bob Ross said:


> Along similar lines: How much does the air inside the frame's tubes weigh? Do bikes with oversize tubes weigh more than bikes with traditional small-diameter cylindrical tubes because there's more air inside the frame? I know some folks have tried filling their tires with helium; has anyone ever evacuated the air from their frame & filled it with helium (or left it a vacuum)?


Small and large tube bikes should weigh the same based on the air in the tubes, assuming there is at least some small gap allowing air to flow in and out the pressure should equalize, and push in all directions on the tubing at atmospheric pressure, inside, and out. 

I imagine you wouldn't be able to hold a vacuum long, and that it might make the tubes crush prone since atmospheric pressure isn't insignificant. 

As for helium, you can be the first to experiment- hydrogen would be a better choice, shaving many, many- well maybe a few- fractions of a gram. Be careful welding the tubes closed, though. 

They don't call 'em weight weenies for nothing, you know ut:


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## Spezzoto

*AN estimate in grams*



Psychler said:


> Hey...It's approaching winter...my bike will be apart...the thought of having it painted came upon me...I was curious what the weight gain would be...I asked in a forum where this kind of thing is 'accepted'. Little did I know that one has to be careful about WHAT part they ask about. For that matter, if I had asked about changing my seat, is that suitable for weight scrutiny? Or only wheels/ rotational weight?
> For the record...I NEVER said, or even implied that the heavier/ painted bike would be a detriment to my times...I was merely curious.
> Geez, it doesn't take much to get some guys worked up, does it.
> Now, let me go decide if I want to add three oz. to my frame...hmmmmm...


I order a frame that weight 790 grams unpainted. After the custom paint job it was 
840 grams. But I use a small frame. Maybe a large is about 15 grams more.


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## Cruzer2424

exracer said:


> From personal experience, I can honestly say that I have never noticed a 100g of dead weight difference. I could call all the guys that I raced with and they would probably say the same thing. You put that same 100g into rotational weight and you would probably get a different story.
> 
> 
> Engineers tend to over think things all the time. This could be one of them. I work with engineers every day, I know.
> 
> 
> 
> When I raced motocycles I fought for every foot, every hundredth of a second, no matter how ridiculously small the margin was; I was out the to beat the other guy. The day when you race for second place, you let me know.
> 
> If the OP wants to build a light bike, more power to him but to me paint is not worth the effort thinking about it. Hate to have a different opinion from everybody else.



Go away.


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## wilier

AlanS said:


> I have a Ti Dean frame...I think I want it painted/ or powercoated. BUT...weight!!! How much does paint or powdercoat add to the frame?


I had 3 panels powdercoated to my ti frame. They also got treated to airbrushed detailing and airbrushed decals. Then the whole thing with a matte clear coat. The whole thing was 0.4 lbs or I guess 200 grams. However, it's a thick paint job due to all the coats. If you went with one color and regular decals, the estimates of 100-150 grams are probably about right. 

Pictures here so you can see what I'm talking about.
http://strong.weswu.com/part-12-paint-2/


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## Kestreljr

exracer said:


> From personal experience, I can honestly say that I have never noticed a 100g of dead weight difference. I could call all the guys that I raced with and they would probably say the same thing. You put that same 100g into rotational weight and you would probably get a different story.


You sound like an idot. Are you going to tell me that if you put on an aero helmet that you can actually feel the difference when it makes you ~20 seconds faster over a 40K course? Who cares what you can feel, it is what the data says.

I see your point about 100g difference, but you illustrate with about the most unconvincing argument I have ever seen.


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## Chompers

Kestreljr said:


> You sound like an idot. Are you going to tell me that if you put on an aero helmet that you can actually feel the difference when it makes you ~20 seconds faster over a 40K course? Who cares what you can feel, it is what the data says.
> 
> I see your point about 100g difference, but you illustrate with about the most unconvincing argument I have ever seen.


I think he said he's *never* felt 100g of dead weight, but he has felt 100g of rotational weight.


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## alexedge

Wow, cool blog, gonna have to read that all the way through when I have a chance. I also have a strong that was painted at Spectrum, and the quality is amazing. Almost everyone who sees it comments on the paint.

That said, I can't believe people in the "Save Some Weight" forum are jumping on this guy for asking how much paint weighs! This forum is obviously intended for those of us who prefer to build our bikes as light as possible. That means saving weight whenever and wherever we can. Sure, 100g might not seem like a lot to you, but if you saved 100g on paint, and 300g in your wheels, and 200g in the crankset, then you're talking a huge difference. Plus, most weight savings COST money (lighter cranks or wheels are more expensive), while going paintless on a custom frame actually SAVES money. Seems like a smart idea to me!

To the OP: I would ask the place that's doing the powdercoating. I know my friend who paints cars has to go through a process beforehand where he mixes the paint, and that involves some weighing - I would assume powdercoating has a similar procedure. So they may be able to tell you "Yeah, we usually use 3 ounces to do one frame" or something.

If it was my choice, I would leave it bare - bare Ti is beautiful, and there are a few different finishes you can use, so if you get bored, you can always change it up - go from brushed to bead blasted, or from bead blasted to polished, or whatever.


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## California L33

wilier said:


> I had 3 panels powdercoated to my ti frame. They also got treated to airbrushed detailing and airbrushed decals. Then the whole thing with a matte clear coat. The whole thing was 0.4 lbs or I guess 200 grams. However, it's a thick paint job due to all the coats. If you went with one color and regular decals, the estimates of 100-150 grams are probably about right.
> 
> Pictures here so you can see what I'm talking about.
> http://strong.weswu.com/part-12-paint-2/


Wes;

I'll second what Alexedge said- nice blog. If you can accept a bit of criticism, I'd suggest running it through a spell checker. And here's one it won't catch- "I’ve been successful at literally riding right over then a couple of time." I think you mean "them." I know, it's darn near impossible to proofread your own writing. It's so well done it's hard to see the mistakes. 

One question, which has nothing to do with the weight of paint, why did you avoid the titanium cassette when you're riding 30-60 miles a week? I'd think it would last quite a while if the chain were changed regularly- and you bought 5 chains.


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## Lancer8XT

call me stupid, but doesn't paint help protect the bare metal from nicks and scratches? Sure, it isn't much but over time it could compromise some of the strength.


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## Kestreljr

Lancer8XT said:


> call me stupid, but doesn't paint help protect the bare metal from nicks and scratches? Sure, it isn't much but over time it could compromise some of the strength.


Well, if that was a problem, then I don't think they would regularly sand blast frame, or brush them with industrial stength sanders.


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## wilier

California L33 said:


> Wes;
> 
> I'll second what Alexedge said- nice blog. If you can accept a bit of criticism, I'd suggest running it through a spell checker. And here's one it won't catch- "I’ve been successful at literally riding right over then a couple of time." I think you mean "them." I know, it's darn near impossible to proofread your own writing. It's so well done it's hard to see the mistakes.
> 
> One question, which has nothing to do with the weight of paint, why did you avoid the titanium cassette when you're riding 30-60 miles a week? I'd think it would last quite a while if the chain were changed regularly- and you bought 5 chains.


Thanks for the comments on the blog. I'll see about running it through spell check, but you're right, i thought it was pretty clean.

I guess I just have an issue spending $300 on a cassette. Although I get my stuff wholesale, the current rates on campy is still fairly close to the retail prices. Unless the cassette is going to last 3 times as long, I'd rather have the option to get a selection of cassettes (12-25, 12-21...)

BTW - I finally have all the parts but the wheels. I'll be doing the build next week!!! Woo hoo!!


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## California L33

Lancer8XT said:


> call me stupid


OK, you're stupid  



Lancer8XT said:


> ...doesn't paint help protect the bare metal from nicks and scratches? Sure, it isn't much but over time it could compromise some of the strength.


The primary reason for painting is to prevent destructive corrosion on steel frames. Gold is the only metal that doesn't corrode, but some metals, like aluminum and titanium don't develop destructive corrosion. In aluminum's case it corrodes so fast, hard, and evenly that the corrosion protects the metal beneath it. I believe something similar happens with titanium. I have a feeling that any nick or scratch that would weaken a metal frame wouldn't be much impressed by a coat of paint, and that if you're talking about an amalgam of tiny scratches piled on top of each other eventually weakening it, fatigue will have destroyed it long, long, before they'd have an effect. 

On the other hand, paint looks cool. 

And you're not stupid :aureola:


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## alexedge

wilier said:


> Thanks for the comments on the blog. I'll see about running it through spell check, but you're right, i thought it was pretty clean.
> 
> I guess I just have an issue spending $300 on a cassette. Although I get my stuff wholesale, the current rates on campy is still fairly close to the retail prices. Unless the cassette is going to last 3 times as long, I'd rather have the option to get a selection of cassettes (12-25, 12-21...)
> 
> BTW - I finally have all the parts but the wheels. I'll be doing the build next week!!! Woo hoo!!


Yeah, spellcheck is your best friend. The latest editions of Word are even better, they have a sort of "correct grammar" checker that, while I don't always take its suggestions, has occasionally improved a sentence or two for me.

Coming from someone who writes for a living (I have the good fortune to be a motorcycle journalist, though lately I've been branching into writing for some car mags - yes, I'm a poor kid with expensive hobbies), it can be REALLY hard to proofread your own work. If you can, always try to have someone else (who is also a good writer, or at least someone who reads a lot and understands grammar) read it. If I've been working and reworking a story for a week, changing whole paragraphs to get it to flow right, then by the time I do the final edit, I KNOW what it says - therefore, if there's a small mistake, like an 'n' instead of an 'm' or something, I won't even see it - my brain just reads it as it SHOULD be rather than as it is. But my editor will catch it right away. I can do the same thing to his work, and it's fun to see the junior guy making little red marks all over the bossman's big story...


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## johnstone3

I once wrote Trek consumer services and asked them what the paint weighed on their bikes, and I got this answer:



> We use low solid paints on the SSLs so the paint is even lighter, but you can figure about 0.5 to 0.66 lbs for paint and clear.


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## California L33

alexedge said:


> Yeah, spellcheck is your best friend. The latest editions of Word are even better, they have a sort of "correct grammar" checker that, while I don't always take its suggestions, has occasionally improved a sentence or two for me.
> 
> Coming from someone who writes for a living (I have the good fortune to be a motorcycle journalist, though lately I've been branching into writing for some car mags - yes, I'm a poor kid with expensive hobbies), it can be REALLY hard to proofread your own work. If you can, always try to have someone else (who is also a good writer, or at least someone who reads a lot and understands grammar) read it. If I've been working and reworking a story for a week, changing whole paragraphs to get it to flow right, then by the time I do the final edit, I KNOW what it says - therefore, if there's a small mistake, like an 'n' instead of an 'm' or something, I won't even see it - my brain just reads it as it SHOULD be rather than as it is. But my editor will catch it right away. I can do the same thing to his work, and it's fun to see the junior guy making little red marks all over the bossman's big story...


You either have to be really bad or really good with English to use Word's grammar check function. I find it makes a lot of errors. I'd guess about 40% of its improvements are errors, sometimes real clangers. I don't know if they've improved it recently, as I am using an older version- 10.45.


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