# Moots "Vamoots" Ti vs. Orbea "Onix" Carbon Fiber



## kmb

I am close to buying either a Moots "Vamoots" Titanium or an Orbea "Onix" Carbon Fiber. I am 5'9", about 175-180 lbs. Love to climb. Want to start doing long (100+ mile) rides, and a Double Century here and there. Want a strong, stiff, light and durable bike.

My fear with Carbon-Fiber is their relatively (vs. Titanium) short life. That after 5,000 - 6,000 miles or so, I will begin to feel the Carbon Fiber frame lose some of its initial qualities, most importantly its stiffness. I have heard it gets a bit flexy (noodle) and gets steadly worse the more miles you put on it.

Titanium, on the other hand stays the way it is for a much longer time, especially a well made Moots frame.

So, are the rumors about Carbon-Fiber's relatively "shorter" life true? OR, should I go for the lighter and stiffer Carbon-Fiber over the Moots Ti??

Advice out there??
kmb


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## Ti-Boy

*Moots Vamoots*

Vamoots will deliver everything you're looking for. We're close (5'10", 170lbs), love to climb and do long distances. It's butter smooth and has the git up an go when needed. Stable on fast descents and BB seems stiff enough for me when I stand and climb.

There are 3 Moots in my house: wife has one and my other is a Smoothie. There is something non-quantifiable about a Moots. You just experience it when you ride it.

I have a CF bike on order, but when faced with your decision a couple of years ago I went with the durability of Ti. I plan to have my Vamoots for my cycling lifetime.


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## C-40

*what baloney..*

A carbon frame won't lose it's stiffness, particularly in only a couple of years or 6,000 miles. The person telling that story is an idiot. 

Ti frames can fail too. Weld joints are always susceptible to cracking.


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## kmb

Just curious then, IF Carbon Fiber lasts as long as a Ti frame, and keeps it initial qualities which are normally stiffer than Ti, then why would anybody buy Ti? If this is the case, then with C.F. you would have a lighter, stiffer, stronger bike that lasts just as long as Ti. I had also thought that if you want a very light and stiff bike with some dampening qualities, go with the Carbon Fiber, but know it will not stay stiff forever. And if you want a pretty stiff frame, maybe not as stiff as Carbon Fiber, and not as light, but very durable, strong and will last longer, go with the Ti.

I had always "heard" and read that the main down side to Carbon Fiber is a shorter fatigue life than Ti. 

My big concern with the C.F. frame is spending $3,300 (or so) on a complete carbon fiber bike but have it lose some of its qualities over its life. OR spending around $5,000 for a Moots Ti that will last longer and stay consistent in its quailities longer....


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## CFBlue

Better run in your basement and stay away from the Indy 500, jets and cars may harm you. Carbon doesn't "loosen" up. It is solid or it breaks, pretty simple. Get what ya want, I'd get what looks best to you or makes the best sense $$ wise. 

Kyle


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## Mike Prince

kmb said:


> Just curious then, IF Carbon Fiber lasts as long as a Ti frame, and keeps it initial qualities which are normally stiffer than Ti, then why would anybody buy Ti?


CF can fail catastrophically in a crash (doesn't necessarily have great impact resistance). while Ti is tougher. Also, some of us want a traditional looking metal frame instead of a space age looking piece of plastic.


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## Drone 5200

kmb said:


> IF Carbon Fiber lasts as long as a Ti frame, and keeps it initial qualities which are normally stiffer than Ti, then why would anybody buy Ti?


That's the way the market sees it right now. Even Merlin is now offering a top end carbon. Time will tell if these new carbon offerings will last "forever." But the OCLVs don't have any reputation for going soft or suffering from catastrophic failures - that's a myth. 

"I just want to say one word to you - Plastics"


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## buffedupboy

*hmm*

When both materials crack, either through defect or crash, cracks in carbon fibre don't propagate, and the frame will fail immediately. Crack in Ti will propagate and takes some time to fail.

People chose ti over carbon or vice versa for various reasons. Most titanium frames are more 'crash friendly', meaning if you crashed into something, and the frame suffers direct impact from an object, a titanium frame can resist more force without failing. In fact, most likely the frame will dent, before it actually cracks. Carbon on the other hand, will not dent. It will crack and snap.

There is no truth in carbon fibre losing it's stiffness after sometime, like another poster said, whoever told you that is an idiot.... and if you believed him..... There is also no truth in titanium frames having a tendency to squeek.

Both materials can and have been used to make splendid bikes. Personally it boils down to whether you love paint vs raw ti, shaped vs round tubes (aesthetically), price, ride quality.


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## kmb

got enough info. now....
thanks to all who had constructive input...
kmb


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