# Bruyneel Does It Again!! Where's the love?



## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Why isn't there more talk about JB? The man built the Postal/Disco machine, turned a cancer victim/wannabe into a 7 time TdF champion and darling of media. JB then lost that rider and went on to discover another unkown and turn him into a two time TdF winner. Oh, and Astana won the team championship (which, IIRC, Disco/Postal never did).

The man has won every TdF in which he's had a rider for the last ten years! (Am I right about that?)

As for Team Radio Shack, iIf there's anybody in the world that Armstrong listens to, it has to be Bruyneel. I have to think JB knows that LA is getting a bit long in the tooth and has some longer term plans than to just get LA back in yellow in Paris next year.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

obfg said:


> The man has won every TdF in which he's had a rider for the last ten years! (Am I right about that?)


No.

Remember that post-Lance Discovery team in which Hincapie was being touted as their GC contender? Discovery did not have a good tour that year (when Óscar Pereiro won).


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

moonmoth said:


> No.
> 
> Remember that post-Lance Discovery team in which Hincapie was being touted as their GC contender? Discovery did not have a good tour that year (when Óscar Pereiro won).


It was that disastrous 2006 Tour performance that got Bruyneel to sign up Alberto Contador as Liberty Seguros-Wurth was dissolving following the Puerto scandal.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

moonmoth said:


> No.
> 
> Remember that post-Lance Discovery team in which Hincapie was being touted as their GC contender? Discovery did not have a good tour that year (when Óscar Pereiro won).


I stand corrected. Thank you.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that JB's coaching success has to be considered one of the greatest achievements in cycling. No?


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

*Is there a chance JB has a bead on another young cyclist?*



fornaca68 said:


> It was that disastrous 2006 Tour performance that got Bruyneel to sign up Alberto Contador as Liberty Seguros-Wurth was dissolving following the Puerto scandal.


JB picked out LA when no one else thought he had what it takes to become a Grand Tour winner. JB recruited AC and turned him into a multiple Grand Tour winner. The ability to recognize potential is one of the things that makes a coach great. (Tom Brady didn't crack the starting lineup while in college.)

JB and Armstrong are probably close, but JB has got to know that LA is getting a little old to be winning grand tours. 

OK, JB probably wants to change sponsors after the financial difficulties with Astana this year. But wouldn't the new British or Spanish teams jump at the chance to bring in the most successful DS in Grand Tour history? Is JB really going to hook his wagon to what is probably a falling star (in terms or race results, anyway)|?


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

obfg said:


> Nevertheless, it seems to me that JB's coaching success has to be considered one of the greatest achievements in cycling. No?


He is not a coach. He is the Directeur Sportif (Manager, whatever). He is good at putting together a team with one sole objective. Not so good in the classics. It almost came off the rails this year, but luckily he had an ace-in-the-hole.


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

obfg said:


> (Tom Brady didn't crack the starting lineup while in college.)


Except those two years he started every game.


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## lalahsghost (Aug 27, 2007)

I'm excited for next year already!


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## albert owen (Jul 7, 2008)

IMO Contador won in spite of Astana, not because of them. The only time they looked like a team that was riding as a team was in the TTT when it is impossible to look otherwise.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Spunout said:


> He is not a coach. He is the Directeur Sportif (Manager, whatever). He is good at putting together a team with one sole objective. Not so good in the classics. It almost came off the rails this year, but luckily he had an ace-in-the-hole.


Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression that the DS was the cycling version of a "coach" in other sports. Sort of like the way the "manager" of a baseball team is its "coach." So, help me out, who would be considered the "coach" of the Postal/Disco/Astana team?

You're right, JB's teams/riders haven't been as successsful in the classics as they have been in the Grand Tours. 

But, come on, his riders have won 9 Tours, 2 Vueltas, and 2 Giros. If that's a "sole objective" I'd bet a dollar against a dougnut that any other DS in cycling would love to have such limited success. It actually looks like he's trying to sweep the podium at the TdF, a goal which would probably be considered unthinkable by any other DS. (OK, I recognize you have to think about something that to consider something "unthinkable," but you know what I mean.)


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## slow_twitch (Jul 26, 2009)

In all of this drama about Astana, Lance, and AC, can we agree that the most professional team in this Tour was SaxoBank? Starting with Cancellara, finishing with the Schlecks, consistent in between: these are the guys I would want working for or with me. These other prima donnas - not so much.


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## Sojourneyman (Jun 22, 2007)

slow_twitch said:


> In all of this drama about Astana, Lance, and AC, can we agree that the most professional team in this Tour was SaxoBank? Starting with Cancellara, finishing with the Schlecks, consistent in between: these are the guys I would want working for or with me. These other prima donnas - not so much.


That's one of the best first-posts i've seen in a while, though I'm betting you've been around the tri circuit...

Bruyneel is very good at what he does, but remember that what he does is different from what other managers do - which is solely aim to win stage races.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

albert owen said:


> IMO Contador won in spite of Astana, not because of them. The only time they looked like a team that was riding as a team was in the TTT when it is impossible to look otherwise.


Yea, they won the TTT because the "looked" like a team instead of actually being one. That would make Billy Crystal right ("it's better to look good than to be good").

Actually Astana also looked a lot like a team when they took the podium. But again, I suppose it is hard not to look like a team in those circumstances.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

obfg said:


> Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression that the DS was the cycling version of a "coach" in other sports. Sort of like the way the "manager" of a baseball team is its "coach." So, help me out, who would be considered the "coach" of the Postal/Disco/Astana team?


Riders typically have their own personal coaches, or "trainers" who are responsible for their physical conditioning and training programs. These coaches are rarely employees of the team.

The DS chooses what the team's schedule will look like, which riders will participate in which races, what each rider's role and goals will be for an event (i.e. to train/prepare, support, or actually go for results of some kind), oversees logistics and operations including delegating to the team's assistant DSs, and will often manage the strategy and tactics of the riders for key events where that task is not assigned to an ADS.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Circlip said:


> Riders typically have their own personal coaches, or "trainers" who are responsible for their physical conditioning and training programs. These coaches are rarely employees of the team.
> 
> The DS chooses what the team's schedule will look like, which riders will participate in which races, what each rider's role and goals will be for an event (i.e. to train/prepare, support, or actually go for results of some kind), oversees logistics and operations including delegating to the team's assistant DSs, and will often manage the strategy and tactics of the riders for key events where that task is not assigned to an ADS.


In other words, he does what a "coach" does in other sports. Or more, if you consider scheduling and personnel selection,

I know that the top riders have personal "coaches" who set up individual training programs, but is this true of most pro riders? I didn't think the domestiques really made all that much.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Gripped said:


> Except those two years he started every game.


Oops. You're right about that. Of course, he was the 199th player selected in the draft and Belichick is often credited with recognizing potential where others did not.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Perhaps, but in the world of cycling the terminology is a bit different and being a "coach" has another connotation.

It's not unheard of for a DS to be coach (in the cycling sense) for one of their riders. For example, Vaughters from Garmin apparently took over Tom Danielson's training this year.

For other riders I'm sure you are correct where they don't necessarily have a celebrity coach, and may have their training programs administered by members of the team staff. Keep in mind though that decent coaching - even at the pro level - probably doesn't have to cost tens of thousands of dollars per year. Most of these riders have probably been doing it long enough that they could do a decent job of designing their own program also IMHO. Aside from the basic program, they have all the other support services of the team available to them so they are set up pretty well.



obfg said:


> In other words, he does what a "coach" does in other sports. Or more, if you consider scheduling and personnel selection,
> 
> I know that the top riders have personal "coaches" who set up individual training programs, but is this true of most pro riders? I didn't think the domestiques really made all that much.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Circlip said:


> Perhaps, but in the world of cycling the terminology is a bit different and being a "coach" has another connotation.
> 
> It's not unheard of for a DS to be coach (in the cycling sense) for one of their riders. For example, Vaughters from Garmin apparently took over Tom Danielson's training this year.
> 
> For other riders I'm sure you are correct where they don't necessarily have a celebrity coach, and may have their training programs administered by members of the team staff. Keep in mind though that decent coaching - even at the pro level - probably doesn't have to cost tens of thousands of dollars per year. Most of these riders have probably been doing it long enough that they could do a decent job of designing their own program also IMHO. Aside from the basic program, they have all the other support services of the team available to them so they are set up pretty well.


My point is that Bruyneel has had unparalleled success as the DS of a cycling team. His Postal/Discov teams were dominated. (Remember when Postal put so much time on the other riders that the Tour changed its rules to impose a 4 minute limit?) Lance left and JB won with Contador. JB, as DS, has won 9 tours, and 2 each for the Vuelta and Giro. Who else has ever had that kind of sucess (maybe Eddie Mercx as a rider?)? 

Query: How many tours would Lance have won without the organization that JB put together? 

The Grand Tours are the highlight events of cycling. If you wanted to win one, as a rider, team, sponsor, or whatever. Wouldn't JB be your first draft pick?


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## nims (Jul 7, 2009)

albert owen said:


> IMO Contador won in spite of Astana, not because of them. The only time they looked like a team that was riding as a team was in the TTT when it is impossible to look otherwise.


Sorry to burst your bubble but that's not true. Their was only two unplanned attack this year and it was on arcalis and the mistake(by contador's own words, wasn't meant to hurt the team) in the alps. Other than that, he seemed to have followed the plan that JB put out. Versus made him out to be an ass and they did put Lance on the spot a lot trying to get him to diss Contador. Lance said Contador was on another level, better than Ulrich and probably better than him on some of his victories. I haven't seen him work against him ever during this tour. Name me on stage where contador needed help that wasn't provided? 

All I can say is JB was in control and he felt he needed to see what Lance could do before putting Contador in the "Leader" of the team position. At least that's what I saw.


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

slow_twitch said:


> In all of this drama about Astana, Lance, and AC, can we agree that the most professional team in this Tour was SaxoBank? Starting with Cancellara, finishing with the Schlecks, consistent in between: these are the guys I would want working for or with me. These other prima donnas - not so much.


Jens and Stu are made at you for not mentioning their names....


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## varian72 (Jul 18, 2006)

obfg said:


> JB picked out LA when no one else thought he had what it takes to become a Grand Tour winner.


Actually, it was the other way around if I recall. Not a big deal though.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

Assuming you are trying to win, ethics be damned, that seems like a no-brainer. I contributed my thoughts on this exact topic already a few days ago, in the other forum;

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=180778

Best to keep any replies to that post in the appropriate forum though, or else this thread will be relocated faster than greased moose poop.



obfg said:


> My point is that Bruyneel has had unparalleled success as the DS of a cycling team. His Postal/Discov teams were dominated. (Remember when Postal put so much time on the other riders that the Tour changed its rules to impose a 4 minute limit?) Lance left and JB won with Contador. JB, as DS, has won 9 tours, and 2 each for the Vuelta and Giro. Who else has ever had that kind of sucess (maybe Eddie Mercx as a rider?)?
> 
> The Grand Tours are the highlight events of cycling. If you wanted to win one, as a rider, team, sponsor, or whatever. Wouldn't JB be your first draft pick?


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

*That's where the money is.*



Sojourneyman said:


> That's one of the best first-posts i've seen in a while, though I'm betting you've been around the tri circuit...
> 
> Bruyneel is very good at what he does, but remember that what he does is different from what other managers do - which is solely aim to win stage races.


When asked why he robbed banks, John Dillinger is said to have replied: "Because that's where they keep the money."

Isn'tt stage racing where the big money is in cycling? It's what draws the press, which draws the sponsors, which makes cycling possible. And, seems to me, there's nobody better at putting together a winning effort in stage racing than JB. Heck, there's nobody in his league (though I have great hopes for Jonathon Vaughters).


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

obfg said:


> When asked why he robbed banks, John Dillinger is said to have replied: "Because that's where they keep the money."
> 
> Isn'tt stage racing where the big money is in cycling? It's what draws the press, which draws the sponsors, which makes cycling possible. And, seems to me, there's nobody better at putting together a winning effort in stage racing than JB. Heck, there's nobody in his league (though I have great hopes for Jonathon Vaughters).


quick step seems to be doing very well indeed with a different focus than the tour de france. 
If any sports director has shown that he can groom both GT and classics winners it would have to be riis.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

That's a very North American-centric viewpoint which is largely a product of the mainstream sports media here. While the GTs, and the TdF specifically certainly help to create the economy around cycling, there would likely still be some significant sponsors in the game regardless. The classics and Monuments draw a large number of eyeballs, and some entire Pro Tour teams containing some of the highest paid riders are built primarily for success in these events, not the TdF, which their sponsors are aware of. Any noteworthy results in GTs would be much-welcomed icing on the cake, but not the primary goal of the team.



obfg said:


> When asked why he robbed banks, John Dillinger is said to have replied: "Because that's where they keep the money."
> 
> Isn'tt stage racing where the big money is in cycling? It's what draws the press, which draws the sponsors, which makes cycling possible. And, seems to me, there's nobody better at putting together a winning effort in stage racing than JB. Heck, there's nobody in his league (though I have great hopes for Jonathon Vaughters).


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

*I bow to a superior authority*



Circlip said:


> That's a very North American-centric viewpoint which is largely a product of the mainstream sports media here. While the GTs, and the TdF specifically certainly help to create the economy around cycling, there would likely still be some significant sponsors in the game regardless. The classics and Monuments draw a large number of eyeballs, and some entire Pro Tour teams containing some of the highest paid riders are built primarily for success in these events, not the TdF, which their sponsors are aware of. Any noteworthy results in GTs would be much-welcomed icing on the cake, but not the primary goal of the team.



My viewpoint is, almost certainly, reflective of the mainstream American media and (especially) its focus on Lance. I'm not as experienced or knowledgeable as many (most?) of the posters here. Sincerely, thank you for correcting my mistaken impressions.

Of course, when it comes to stage racing, you gotten give JB his props.


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## FondriestFan (May 19, 2005)

obfg said:


> JB picked out LA when no one else thought he had what it takes to become a Grand Tour winner.


Huh? Manolo Saiz had long since recognized Contador's brilliance. He and LL Sanchez were on the radar early on.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

FondriestFan said:


> Huh? Manolo Saiz had long since recognized Contador's brilliance. He and LL Sanchez were on the radar early on.


You mean as in back in 2005, like in this article below splashed all over Velonews?

http://velonews.com/article/9083

obfg is on his way to a new forum record of how many times someone has to stand corrected within a single thread.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

obfg said:


> My point is that Bruyneel has had unparalleled success as the DS of a cycling team. His Postal/Discov teams were dominated. (Remember when Postal put so much time on the other riders that the Tour changed its rules to impose a 4 minute limit?) Lance left and JB won with Contador. JB, as DS, has won 9 tours, and 2 each for the Vuelta and Giro. Who else has ever had that kind of sucess (maybe Eddie Mercx as a rider?)?
> 
> Query: How many tours would Lance have won without the organization that JB put together?
> 
> The Grand Tours are the highlight events of cycling. If you wanted to win one, as a rider, team, sponsor, or whatever. Wouldn't JB be your first draft pick?


Hmmm. Depends on one's definition of "unparalleled success", I suppose.

If you think the Tour is the entire cycling universe, I would agree. But it is not, and Postal/Disco/Astana has been a _pretty good_ team outside of the collective TdF obsession of Johan and Lance. Levi Leipheimer has won more races over the past few years than Lance did in his heyday! Other than Levi's wins, what have they won except when Contador was prevented from racing in the Tour?

It brings up the question, does the athlete make the coach, or the coach make the athlete? What did Ross Brawn and Jean Todt win before Michael Schumacher? What did Bill Belichick win before Tom Brady?

Lance Armstrong is unique. Alberto Contador is clearly his successor. Watch Alberto win next year without Bruyneel, then judge. Bruyneel did not create Contador. Nor, for that matter, did he create Lance. But he is a terrific personnel man, and a great tactician, maybe the best.

That's enough love for him.


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## Spunout (Aug 12, 2002)

Italophile said:


> But he is a terrific personnel man, and a great tactician, maybe the best.
> .


I think he failed to manage his team this year. By allowing mixed communications from the team, riders, etc. and not publicly stating the case and correcting the media, he let the team fall apart from the inside. Contador won in spite of this, he rose to the occasion.


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## jptaylorsg (Apr 24, 2003)

cpark said:


> Jens and Stu are made at you for not mentioning their names....


Not to mention the Sorensen non-brothers.

What an exciting team this year.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

cpark said:


> Jens and Stu are made at you for not mentioning their names....


You beat me to it! I absolutely love those two guys - who doesn't? True professionals in every regard. :thumbsup:


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

...And while we are mentioning teams that showed class, strength, and depth in this Tour, I feel the need to throw some laurels in the direction of Liquigas: a good TTT and two top-ten finishers in addition to the Polka Dot jersey. Wow!


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Italophile said:


> Hmmm.
> It brings up the question, does the athlete make the coach, or the coach make the athlete? What did Ross Brawn and Jean Todt win before Michael Schumacher? What did Bill Belichick win before Tom Brady?
> 
> .


And Bruyneel has one 2 TdF, 2 Vuelta, and 2 Giro without Lance.


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

Circlip said:


> You mean as in back in 2005, like in this article below splashed all over Velonews?
> 
> http://velonews.com/article/9083
> 
> obfg is on his way to a new forum record of how many times someone has to stand corrected within a single thread.



Well, that's one of the reasons I've started posting. So I can be educated by those of you on this board who are more knowledgeable than I. (I'm not being sarcastic.)

In my defense, however, I don't think I said that JB was the first to recognize AC's potential.


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## Circlip (Jul 26, 2005)

obfg said:


> In my defense, however, I don't think I said that JB was the first to recognize AC's potential.


You're right. My bad. :blush2:


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## obfg (Jul 18, 2004)

*Do I get credit against*



Circlip said:


> You're right. My bad. :blush2:


one of my corrected stands?


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