# 2018 Tarmac



## MMsRepBike

Nothing special if you ask me.

Not looking forward to whatever lies their marketing department will come up with this time.

Let's hope they finally, for once, made an actual lightweight road frameset.

Direct mount caliper brakes, you can bet the farm the disc brake version is ready or close to it... this company is one of the big disc pushers.

Where's the closeup of the bottom bracket? What kind of bottom bracket does it have?

Not seeing anything fancy at all on this bike, which is good if you ask me. The D shaped seatpost is a big negative. They're not the only ones guilty of this though.


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## Arnoud

Foto Series looks interesting. Wondering what the disc version will look like and whether they will integrate the Di2 junction box.


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## MMsRepBike

Arnoud said:


> Foto Series looks interesting. Wondering what the disc version will look like and whether they will integrate the Di2 junction box.



There is a hole in the downtube for what looks like the junction box.


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## 11spd

MM,
I largely agree with your observations. The hidden seat post clamp is a disaster. The D shaped post which saves .2 watts at 35 mph comes at a huge cost to using a generic post of the owner's choice aka less offset and 2 bolt many prefer.
Unlikely that Specialized 'advanced' back to a BSA BB like the Roubaix because that just wouldn't be as 'cool' aka racy like the Tarmac even though most of us vastly prefer a threaded BB.

No, we as consumers don't get exactly what we want. But there are other companies out there...Pinerello for example went back to a BSA BB and their proprietary aero post is 2 bolt....two good reasons to go Dogma F8 versus Sworks Tarmac.
The brake issue which likely saves another watt at 30 mph is probably way more hassle and certainly more cost than benefit.

The price of so called 'progress' which makes lower level frames today with trickle down technology more attractive...kind of like Shimano 105 11s versus DA at 3x's the price for a handful of grams and limited functional improvement if any.


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## goodboyr

But wait....it will be 10% stiffer, and 3% more aero......isn't that what everyone wants? 😉

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## tranzformer

Take a Allez Sprint frame + Canyon Ultimate frame, make a baby and this is what you apparently get. Will be interesting to hear the stats on the frame and what kind of magic Peter Denk was able to do.


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## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> Nothing special if you ask me.
> 
> Not looking forward to whatever lies their marketing department will come up with this time.
> 
> Let's hope they finally, for once, made an actual lightweight road frameset.
> 
> Direct mount caliper brakes, you can bet the farm the disc brake version is ready or close to it... this company is one of the big disc pushers.
> 
> Where's the closeup of the bottom bracket? What kind of bottom bracket does it have?
> 
> Not seeing anything fancy at all on this bike, which is good if you ask me. The D shaped seatpost is a big negative. They're not the only ones guilty of this though.


I would buy this bike. I would not buy the current version. Just wanted to wedge that in there quickly before the Specialized Spin Machine starts so that I can't be accused of being a victim of whatever uh, generous claims, shall we say, are forthcoming.

I like it, aesthetically. It has a clean, functional look. Is it a stunning beauty? No.
But most of the changes were predictable in the sense that they had to make them. It's just not possible anymore to put bikes out there without real tweaks to the aerodynamics.

But yeah, an important question is were they able to do this and still get the frame weight down... I can't imagine they didn't keep the Tarmac's signature handling and torsional stiffness. For several generations it has been pretty much the best handling bike made and that's not something you walk away from in updating a design.

And yeah, I'm really really not looking forward to the marketing onslaught/claims and the dissection that it will require of us yet again. I'm pretty sure their marketing is outsourced to Russian hackers.
It's hard to imagine they will come up with anything as outrageous as that 5-minute scheme, but that kind of massive spin machinery doesn't sit idle... for sure some rough advertising beast, its time come 'round at last, is already slouching toward Bethlehem .... bearing Nibali upon its shoulders and trailing the distinct scent of sulfur.


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## MMsRepBike

It's quite simple, which I like.

It's similar to a lot of other bikes out there now.

I'd ride it, but luckily I have other nice bikes to ride, including the SL4 Tarmac.

I'm guessing geometry will largely stay the same, although it is weird to me (basically same reach on the 49, 52 and 54).

A sub 800 gram frame weight would be spot on, it's about time for it.

But what bottom bracket does this beast have?

+700% in stiffness and +900% in compliance of course. Super duper aero, wins races by itself too of course. Disc version of course. But then questions arise there.

What spacing on the disc? 142? Better be. And will the longer chainstays of the disc also be on the rim brake version? Should be. Would be nice to see both at 410 or 412. I'm a fan of the longer chainstay. We can engineer the stay plenty stiff with carbon at whatever length is how I see it.

Just show me the geometry charts for the disc and rim versions and skip the rest please.

I predict this will be quite popular with the pros, especially the sprinters actually, due to the better braking vs the rim brake Venge.


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## thumper8888

MMsRepBike said:


> It's quite simple, which I like.
> 
> It's similar to a lot of other bikes out there now.
> 
> I'd ride it, but luckily I have other nice bikes to ride, including the SL4 Tarmac.
> 
> I'm guessing geometry will largely stay the same, although it is weird to me (basically same reach on the 49, 52 and 54).
> 
> A sub 800 gram frame weight would be spot on, it's about time for it.
> 
> But what bottom bracket does this beast have?
> 
> +700% in stiffness and +900% in compliance of course. Super duper aero, wins races by itself too of course. Disc version of course. But then questions arise there.
> 
> What spacing on the disc? 142? Better be. And will the longer chainstays of the disc also be on the rim brake version? Should be. Would be nice to see both at 410 or 412. I'm a fan of the longer chainstay. We can engineer the stay plenty stiff with carbon at whatever length is how I see it.
> 
> Just show me the geometry charts for the disc and rim versions and skip the rest please.
> 
> I predict this will be quite popular with the pros, especially the sprinters actually, due to the better braking vs the rim brake Venge.



There are echoes of the new Roubaix, but this is a much cleaner look.
I was thinking exactly the same on the weight number, for the s-works version at least. 
900 grams would be a modest fail.
I had an SL4 and in most ways it was the best bike I ever rode... I guess in pretty much everything except solo straight-line speed, and in absolute weight weenie numbers.
But it was really really light. My only gripe, beyond the aerodynamics which get really crucial when I'm off the back, was the seat stay that folded for no reason.
I think mine was one of those one-off problems ... it looked like a micro-crack started up at the opening for the rear shifter cable and it just folded up there as I pulled away from a stop light.
So I have an inherent bias for these much more robust-looking seat stays, but ... that is a personal problem.
As to bottom bracket, its got to be some BB30 variant, but probably with a metal shell to press into rather than straight carbon. That seems to be the direction that they started moving into recently.
Doesn't seem even faintly likely will it be threaded 24mm or anything else that makes their current spindles not work... Prob disc version will have slightly longer rear triangle like vias disc.


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## lostPixels

I love the new frame, but fear all the weird proprietary tech that Specialized uses. I get why they do it to lock buyers in to their products, but it is a royal pain in the ass.


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## TricrossRich

I think it looks pretty cool. 

I don't see any proprietary tech on this bike, other than seat post.


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## taodemon

I'm slightly annoyed that they updated it right after I got the current one. That said, It doesn't impress me in terms of appearance, but that is usually the case with the bland black frames. I might change my mind once I see some of the production versions. If it keeps same feel/handling while dropping weight and improving aerodynamics I might be slightly more annoyed.


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## 11spd

I guess...lets say comparing the new S-works Tarmac to a new Madone available in two different geometries, why would somebody paying close to $5K for a frameset...lets take wheels and groupset out of the equation....why would anybody not choose a Madone? Its gonna be more aero. Its gonna be equally laterally stiff is not more so with mega wide BB. You can hide the cables if you want. Its got a pivot at the saddle mast for greater compliance. And its arguably more beautiful. 
My pick in this rarified air is the Madone. 
What do you guys think?


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## dcorn

taodemon said:


> I'm slightly annoyed that they updated it right after I got the current one.


They redesign these things on a pretty tight 3 year cycle. Why did you buy a bike in the 3rd year? 

I doubt your frame will be even remotely outdated even with this new design. Peter Sagan won the WC on it last year when it was 2 years old.


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## 11spd

dcorn said:


> They redesign these things on a pretty tight 3 year cycle. Why did you buy a bike in the 3rd year?
> 
> I doubt your frame will be even remotely outdated even with this new design. Peter Sagan won the WC on it last year when it was 2 years old.


Yes...and they do it to create a new model to generate more interest and sales even if the changes they make don't really improve the breed. Sometimes they do make positive changes. But look closely what really is at play here. They create more complicated designs to set themselves apart from the competition that they can sell as an 'improvement' based upon marketing...and...the important part...they create things like brakes, seat posts, BB's etc that are proprietary....you have to buy their parts to fit their frames and not off the shelf parts from the aftermarket. Good news is, there are still pure designs like the CAAD 12 out there that is true value. I believe the Allez still isn't too f-ed up to be a good deal as well excepting the aero seatpost which is single bolt. When the Venge was redesigned, all bets were off with what they will do to sell bikes. All about the money. The fastest guys in my club are the fastest guys no matter what bike they are on.


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## Marc

Yet another obscenely priced carbon wunder-bike. About as exciting as a black carbon bike you probably cannot afford is.

Wonder if they'll need to issue "price-corrections" this year. Trek went down, whereas Spec went up.


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## thumper8888

This is an unusually sane thread. Specialized could have used you guys for a focus group. Can't anyone weigh in with something angry or ignorant? Geez, doesn't even feel like the internet.


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## JSR

Marc said:


> About as exciting as a black carbon bike you probably cannot is.


That's exactly what I was thinking.


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## thumper8888

TricrossRich said:


> I think it looks pretty cool.
> 
> I don't see any proprietary tech on this bike, other than seat post.



Yeah, not seeing anything hyper crazy. It looks like pretty much that they are keeping up with the F10, though the engineering will be better than Pinarello's.
Seems like a pretty straightforward bike. With a port for your di2, which is not a bad thing. I put mine in the bar end finally but that's an ongoing issue..


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## dcorn

I wonder if other bike companies have so many haters. I never check out the other forums long enough to notice. 

"Another redesign to make money" - This is a pretty extensive redesign that incorporates better brakes (direct mount or disc), different aero, and geometry (seatstays/seatpost/tube shapes). And yes, bike companies are out to make money, imagine that!

"Too expensive" - True, but on par or cheaper than other elite cycling brands. If you think it's too much, don't buy it! Or join a team and get yourself a nice discount. I joined my friend's cyclocross team and his shop gives me a discount on bikes. Worth the 100 bucks on his shop gear and I'm going to race anyway!



I'm looking forward to seeing the disc version and the price. I'm betting a Tarmac Pro Disc Ui2 will be at least $6k like the outgoing models. Hopefully I can sell my SL4 S-works and get a good team deal.


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## tranzformer

thumper8888 said:


> I put mine in the bar end finally but that's an ongoing issue..


A 3T Integra Team stem works nicely to get the junction box out of the way.


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## mile2424

Doesn't look good aesthetically to me but let's see what a Sagan built version looks like and wait for all the tech facts and reviews. I usually love everything Spesh, does but this just seems like a very lackluster update. Basically a carbon allez sprint with nothing new besides some dropped seat stays, redesigned seat post, and a tiny looking BB. The new Emonda, BMC, and even the "old" F10 look way better right now.


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## 11spd

dcorn said:


> I wonder if other bike companies have so many haters. I never check out the other forums long enough to notice.
> 
> "Another redesign to make money" - This is a pretty extensive redesign that incorporates better brakes (direct mount or disc), different aero, and geometry (seatstays/seatpost/tube shapes). And yes, bike companies are out to make money, imagine that!
> 
> "Too expensive" - True, but on par or cheaper than other elite cycling brands. If you think it's too much, don't buy it! Or join a team and get yourself a nice discount. I joined my friend's cyclocross team and his shop gives me a discount on bikes. Worth the 100 bucks on his shop gear and I'm going to race anyway!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing the disc version and the price. I'm betting a Tarmac Pro Disc Ui2 will be at least $6k like the outgoing models. Hopefully I can sell my SL4 S-works and get a good team deal.


Views on bicycle design are not monolithic. I for example prefer the Tarmac SL4...prior to the SL5 with so called equivalent ride between all sizes and I ride a 58. Few dispute the hidden seat post clamp on the new bikes is awful. Specialized has a been a complete mess on their BB's. Going to pure BB30 finally after selling the public the worse BB in the industry on their best and most expensive Sworks bike is long overdo and pretty unforgivable for the years customers struggled with carbon OSBB before they finally discontinued it. The Tarmac SL4 and even the SL5 with crappy hidden post clamp are great bikes. I don't like disc brakes and don't want a road bike with them. I love off road bikes with them...even a gravel bike like a Diverge. If I lived in the mountains I would own a bike with discs but I don't. I don't like electric shifting. Top of the line Campy, Sram or DA mechanical are all fine. Even mid grade of each is good. I prefer Campy mechanical. Some pros prefer mechanical shifting and caliper brakes as well.
I like carbon handlebars that are flat on top. I like good computers with GPS. I like powermeters. I believe deep section carbon wheels are faster. I believe tech has its place. I don't believe in all of it. I like the Madone because its aero, stiff where you need it and it rides nicely. Why compromise? The Roubaix with its front shock if you ride crappy roads is probably the best endurance bike on the market. Specialized makes great bikes. I don't agree with everything they do. The Venge VIAS before the disc version wouldn't stop. I have tested it. Its a fast bike that didn't brake very well. The disc version is much better but then you are stuck with disc brakes. I don't like the hassle of disc brakes...I have owned them and hydraulic brakes are more of PITA and needless if not riding in the mountains.

In summary, we each have to find what we like. If choosing a Tarmac, I would probably go SL4 and put a Praxis BB in it and the seatpost with setback I like. Right now I am riding 0 setback.

I love Durianrider...lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzEhqx0sDY


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## thumper8888

tranzformer said:


> A 3T Integra Team stem works nicely to get the junction box out of the way.


Yup... but not on a Vias.


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## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> I think it looks pretty cool.
> 
> I don't see any proprietary tech on this bike, other than seat post.


I am with you. I like both this and the new BMC Teammachine. They are different, but both interesting on some level. Can't wait to see them in person. Pricing should be better on the Tarmac. There's reportedly a new Emonda out there too, but thus far it looks exactly like the old one. I have been hearing rumors of a new Giant Propel possibly being released as well.


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## TricrossRich

Rashadabd said:


> I am with you. I like both this and the new BMC Teammachine. They are different, but both interesting on some level. Can't wait to see them in person. Pricing should be better on the Tarmac. There's reportedly a new Emonda out there too, but thus far it looks exactly like the old one. I have beeen hearing rumors of a new Giant Propel possibly being released as well.



Here's the new Emonda..










Compared to the old one.


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## TricrossRich

The biggest complaint people had about the SL emonda was that it felt too soft... a little noodle-y. I'm guessing that this new frame addresses those critiques. It looks to have a very beefy down tube and head tube. The shoulders of the seat stays look wider as well, which I think would stiffen up the rear without stiffening up the ride quality to much. The chain stays seem beefier as well. It will be interesting to see if weight stayed the same, went down or went up.


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## dcorn

The new Tarmac looks like the new BMC TeamMachine and the new Emonda looks like the SL5 Tarmac haha.


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## 11spd

dcorn said:


> The new Tarmac looks like the new BMC TeamMachine and the new Emonda looks like the SL5 Tarmac haha.


What goes around comes around. ;-)


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## 11spd

thumper8888 said:


> Yup... but not on a Vias.


Why not? Many VIAS owners toss the integrated stem and opt for a conventional stem with external cable routing to free up options and make set up more tunable.


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## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> The biggest complaint people had about the SL emonda was that it felt too soft... a little noodle-y. I'm guessing that this new frame addresses those critiques. It looks to have a very beefy down tube and head tube. The shoulders of the seat stays look wider as well, which I think would stiffen up the rear without stiffening up the ride quality to much. The chain stays seem beefier as well. It will be interesting to see if weight stayed the same, went down or went up.


The look still doesn't excite me all that much, but if the ride quality is spot on, that may alter my perception a bit. I am so tired of the Trek integrated seatmast though. Right now, I have the BMC a little bit ahead of the new Tarmac as the best looking new rig. I am little concerned that the the significantly smaller rear triangle on the Tarmac might limit wheel and tire options, but we'll see.


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## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> The look still doesn't excite me all that much, but if the ride quality is spot on, that may alter my perception a bit. I am so tired of the Trek integrated seatmast though. Right now, I have the BMC a little bit ahead of the new Tarmac as the best looking new rig. I am little concerned that the the significantly smaller rear triangle on the Tarmac might limit wheel and tire options, but we'll see.


It could be argued that the Trek integrated seat mast sucks more than the revised hidden Tarmac seat clamp. I just built a size 56 Emonda for a buddy of mine. 56 H2 geometry is his correct fit...he is all torso and short inseam. With the shortest seat post collar Trek sells, I still had to cut down the mast on the frame by 1 cm. I hate cutting a new frameset for the seat mast. Yes, Trek can tune their ride quality a bit with this design...but it comes with a cost. Further, just like with many other bikes now sold including the VIAS and likely new D shape seatpost Tarmac, there is no option for a two bolt seatpost. At least Cervelo, Pinarello and a few others sell their frames with proprietary 2 bolt aero posts which work well as all 2 bolt clamps do.

The average guy is pretty clueless about design and the choices big manufacturers make and why. They mostly buy on appearance, weight and perception of speed and then unknowingly stuck with the consequences. Integrated BB's are the biggest 'gottcha' of a high end bike purchase. Better now than just a few short years ago but press fit BB's at least now with integrated bearings and cups are still an abomination. BB30 common on new Specialized can at least be tamed to a tolerable level but if bike tech's voted throughout the country, they would still choose BSA.


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## Rashadabd

I would definitely take the BMC or Specialized hidden seatpost screw over the Trek seatmast cap. I don't why they don't start putting the system they used on the Madone on all of their new bikes. It looks a million times better and there are a number of ways to add compliance that aren't as ugly (including their own isospeed decoupler).


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## goodboyr

Lol. That tarmac seatpost wedge is the bane of my existence. Love fishing it out of frame. Love having to put the frame at exactly the right angle to hold it in place during seatpost install. And why did they do that? Because it's different. 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## thumper8888

11spd said:


> Why not? Many VIAS owners toss the integrated stem and opt for a conventional stem with external cable routing to free up options and make set up more tunable.


And that's totally reasonable. 
Swapping stems out for example is indeed a VAST p.i.a.
But mine fits well, and did so right off the bat thanks to that odd online Vias fit tool...so it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to spend more money on another stem and bars that may yield marginally worse aerodynamics just to solve the junction box issue that I just solved pretty elegantly with the bar end junction.

And then there is the whole issue of taking an aero bike designed to run without exposed cables and compromising that design with external cables... you are starting to undermine what really is that bike's only advantage. 
Pretty soon you have a bike that is heavy, brakes marginally, is expensive and ... not the top of the heap in aero.
At that point, it starts to make sense to walk away from the Venge and get an S5m which is lighter and stops better and has more flexible component choices.
Except that the S5 is due a redesign any second and it probably will hide the cables this time.

In truth, if I didn't do bar end, I'd reinstall the blister plate under the BB and put it there rather than go the new stem route.
What I'd really like is for Shimano to go ahead and get on the right side of history and do a wireless system.
It's pretty much certain that they will, but I guess it will be another three years.


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## 11spd

goodboyr said:


> Lol. That tarmac seatpost wedge is the name of my existence. Love fishing it out of frame. Love having to put the frame at exactly the right angle to hold it in place during seatpost install. And why did they do that? Because it's different.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


different aka they went for a cleaner aesthetic...so called more 'aero post clamp design'. Of course and almost unmanagement clamp design doesn't seem to matter. If you think about it...it isn't much different than the brakes they put on the VIAS...aero at what cost to performance?...or the cable routing through the stem...huge PITA to change cables versus what?.... 0.5 watts saved at speeds mortals don't ride? Also you didn't mention how easy it is to chip the paint around the allen screw on the hidden Tarmac clamp. All to be different and not better indeed. Different to carve out a marketing niche to sell more bikes until the sucked in consumer has to live with the consequences.

Basically what it comes down to when shopping for a new road bike is pick the bike with fewest number of tradeoffs.


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## thumper8888

11spd said:


> Basically what it comes down to when shopping for a new road bike is pick the bike with fewest number of tradeoffs.


Ding ding ding, a winner!
Still... no matter how few compromises I do draw the line at ugly. I will not ride an ugly bike. Life's too short, and there are far too many fine looking bike designs that are at the top of the heap in the other ways too.


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## goodboyr

Lol. Yes! And the little rubber plug that gets lost. 

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## dcorn

thumper8888 said:


> Ding ding ding, a winner!
> Still... no matter how few compromises I do draw the line at ugly. I will not ride an ugly bike. Life's too short, and there are far too many fine looking bike designs that are at the top of the heap in the other ways too.


Agreed. I really liked the Venge Vias Disc until I saw one in a shop today. I don't know if it was the 3" of spacers under the gooseneck looking stem, but I just wasn't feeling the large slabsided downtube. I like the way this new Tarmac looks, but I won't buy another rim brake bike, so I'll wait to see how the disc version looks first.


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## 11spd

dcorn said:


> Agreed. I really liked the Venge Vias Disc until I saw one in a shop today. I don't know if it was the 3" of spacers under the gooseneck looking stem, but I just wasn't feeling the large slabsided downtube. I like the way this new Tarmac looks, but I won't buy another rim brake bike, so I'll wait to see how the disc version looks first.


Curious dcorn as you seem pretty set on a disc brake bike. Do you live in the mountains? Have you owned disc brake bikes either mechanical or hydraulic? What is your experience?

Reason I ask is...the bike shown has a pinned number and is a race bike. Disc brakes are currently allowed in pro racing. If such an overwhelming advantage, why would Spesh go to the trouble of redesigning a caliper brake version of the tne Tarmac and simply convert to disc like on the VIAS?

Thoughts?


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## spdntrxi

dcorn said:


> Agreed. I really liked the Venge Vias Disc until I saw one in a shop today. I don't know if it was the 3" of spacers under the gooseneck looking stem, but I just wasn't feeling the large slabsided downtube. I like the way this new Tarmac looks, but I won't buy another rim brake bike, so I'll wait to see how the disc version looks first.


In fairness to the spacers.. the shop is not going to cut anything till its sold.


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## taodemon

dcorn said:


> They redesign these things on a pretty tight 3 year cycle. Why did you buy a bike in the 3rd year?
> 
> I doubt your frame will be even remotely outdated even with this new design. Peter Sagan won the WC on it last year when it was 2 years old.


My venge frame broke and I didn't want to go disc with the VIAS as that would require a new groupset/brakes/wheels or want the extra weight of the VIAS design due to all the hills in central MA and didn't have a backup bike to ride until they release the new tarmac. Their redesign schedule didn't even cross my mind though, I just needed something to ride.  I guess I could have just bought an entry level first gen venge and moved my components over but I kind of wanted to try something new.

I'm not really upset about it but had circumstances been different I would have likely waited for the new design as there would have been no rush to get something new. I have a little over 1100 miles on the Tarmac already and I'm pretty happy with it. It should last me until the next round of aero bikes is released as I'm not completely sold on the current offerings.


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## dcorn

11spd said:


> Curious dcorn as you seem pretty set on a disc brake bike. Do you live in the mountains? Have you owned disc brake bikes either mechanical or hydraulic? What is your experience?
> 
> Reason I ask is...the bike shown has a pinned number and is a race bike. Disc brakes are currently allowed in pro racing. If such an overwhelming advantage, why would Spesh go to the trouble of redesigning a caliper brake version of the tne Tarmac and simply convert to disc like on the VIAS?
> 
> Thoughts?


Clearly they design the rim brake bike because lots of pros don't want discs and lots of amateurs don't want it either. Doesn't matter to me what others ride. You can tell me rim brakes are equal to discs until you are blue in the face, but I'll never agree with you. 

All of the above. The only braking setup I haven't had is carbon wheels and rim brakes. I don't even want to bother because of the terrible braking performance. I've had rim brakes on normal aluminum wheels and have been running rim brakes with Mavic Exalith wheels for a couple years now. It was the only way to get aero wheels and keep decent braking performance on my existing SL4 Tarmac. 

I've since bought a CX bike that had cable disc brakes and it's so much better than rim brakes. Better initial bite, more power, easier on the hands, etc. Then I bought a hydro disc CX bike and its even more of a performance gain. In a panic stop, I can modulate the braking so much better to prevent lock-up. And they work perfectly when it's wet out or I'm riding in gravel and mud. 

I don't live in the mountains, but there are a lot of short steep hills around me and a lot of traffic. I can get going really fast and have to stop very quickly to avoid idiots in cars, or at intersections at the bottom of hills. We have weather and sometimes I need to stop when it's wet out. And I have done a ride where we were descending mountain switchbacks in the rain and it was terrifying, even with Exalith rim brakes. 

You might as well keep asking people why they buy a carbon bike when they can have aluminum at the same weight for less money.


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## dcorn

spdntrxi said:


> In fairness to the spacers.. the shop is not going to cut anything till its sold.


True. I guess I'm just worried my fit would make the spacers necessary, and the bike looks terrible with anything but a slammed stem.


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## spdntrxi

dcorn said:


> True. I guess I'm just worried my fit would make the spacers necessary, and the bike looks terrible with anything but a slammed stem.


It's been awhile but there was an online fit tool and you could see how many spacers you would need and size frame etc etc


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## 11spd

dcorn said:


> Clearly they design the rim brake bike because lots of pros don't want discs and lots of amateurs don't want it either. Doesn't matter to me what others ride. You can tell me rim brakes are equal to discs until you are blue in the face, but I'll never agree with you.
> 
> All of the above. The only braking setup I haven't had is carbon wheels and rim brakes. I don't even want to bother because of the terrible braking performance. I've had rim brakes on normal aluminum wheels and have been running rim brakes with Mavic Exalith wheels for a couple years now. It was the only way to get aero wheels and keep decent braking performance on my existing SL4 Tarmac.
> 
> I've since bought a CX bike that had cable disc brakes and it's so much better than rim brakes. Better initial bite, more power, easier on the hands, etc. Then I bought a hydro disc CX bike and its even more of a performance gain. In a panic stop, I can modulate the braking so much better to prevent lock-up. And they work perfectly when it's wet out or I'm riding in gravel and mud.
> 
> I don't live in the mountains, but there are a lot of short steep hills around me and a lot of traffic. I can get going really fast and have to stop very quickly to avoid idiots in cars, or at intersections at the bottom of hills. We have weather and sometimes I need to stop when it's wet out. And I have done a ride where we were descending mountain switchbacks in the rain and it was terrifying, even with Exalith rim brakes.
> 
> You might as well keep asking people why they buy a carbon bike when they can have aluminum at the same weight for less money.


Except your wacky last sentence of conflation, I say fair enough to what you wrote.
I do agree disc brake bikes stop better...the ones I have owned. Its all about cost/benefit and maintenance has not only a dollar cost but a time cost. Disc brakes are more fiddly than caliper brakes...or perhaps you haven't noticed.

Was interested in your perspective and you shared it and thanks for that. I don't ride much in the rain. My training wheels are aluminum. Shimano dual pivot brakes can lock either wheel up all day long. I am more about going than stopping and my bike has always stopped fine. Caliper brakes are not created equal by a long shot.
But I do agree with you that disc brakes stop better all said. A matter of degree. The best riders in the world still ride caliper brakes through the toughest conditions imaginable including high mph descents even in the rain amateurs wouldn't attempt because we don't have to. Works for them.

As to the future of disc brakes on road bikes in racing, a good subject. Until guards are added to cover the sharp edge, I believe the debate will wage on..and of course guards subtract aerodynamics and add weight...both the enemy of disc already.

We will see.


----------



## 11spd

spdntrxi said:


> It's been awhile but there was an online fit tool and you could see how many spacers you would need and size frame etc etc


On line fit tool to determine no. of spacers is pretty laughable all said. Most bikes look bad with a lot of spacers. The VIAS just happens to look worse because of eccentric shape for cable routing and doesn't help that the stem on the VIAS is the ugliest in the industry but better of course slammed.


----------



## Rashadabd

dcorn said:


> Clearly they design the rim brake bike because lots of pros don't want discs and lots of amateurs don't want it either. Doesn't matter to me what others ride. You can tell me rim brakes are equal to discs until you are blue in the face, but I'll never agree with you.
> 
> All of the above. The only braking setup I haven't had is carbon wheels and rim brakes. I don't even want to bother because of the terrible braking performance. I've had rim brakes on normal aluminum wheels and have been running rim brakes with Mavic Exalith wheels for a couple years now. It was the only way to get aero wheels and keep decent braking performance on my existing SL4 Tarmac.
> 
> I've since bought a CX bike that had cable disc brakes and it's so much better than rim brakes. Better initial bite, more power, easier on the hands, etc. Then I bought a hydro disc CX bike and its even more of a performance gain. In a panic stop, I can modulate the braking so much better to prevent lock-up. And they work perfectly when it's wet out or I'm riding in gravel and mud.
> 
> I don't live in the mountains, but there are a lot of short steep hills around me and a lot of traffic. I can get going really fast and have to stop very quickly to avoid idiots in cars, or at intersections at the bottom of hills. We have weather and sometimes I need to stop when it's wet out. And I have done a ride where we were descending mountain switchbacks in the rain and it was terrifying, even with Exalith rim brakes.
> 
> You might as well keep asking people why they buy a carbon bike when they can have aluminum at the same weight for less money.


The man speaketh the truth IMO. It's not for all people in all circumstances, but they add value value for a number of us. Most of us do not have pro contracts or the bike handling skills that pros do, so that argument hasn't deterred me. I have only tried them on test rides thus far, but I really like them. I personally don't see much of a downside unless you are trying to build a super light bike and even then it seems like BMC has been able to address that issue to some degree, so the pros outweigh the cons for me. Different strokes for different folks though.


----------



## spdntrxi

11spd said:


> On line fit tool to determine no. of spacers is pretty laughable all said. Most bikes look bad with a lot of spacers. The VIAS just happens to look worse because of eccentric shape for cable routing and doesn't help that the stem on the VIAS is the ugliest in the industry but better of course slammed.


Did you try it.. I remember it being based off your current bike measurements . So maybe not completely laughable 

I agree the bike looks better slammed and I'll add straight bars instead of the riser.


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## 11spd

spdntrxi said:


> Did you try it.. I remember it being based off your current bike measurements . So maybe not completely laughable
> 
> I agree the bike looks better slammed and I'll add straight bars instead of the riser.


Excuse me...my bad. Didn't know it was based upon current bike sizing.

On a whimsical note, more than 1/2 the riders on the road have bad fit...so it follows that if new fit is based upon past fit, not the best result.

My thought is if one throws down 8 grand for a new bike, a $200 fit isn't out of line.


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## 11spd

Rashadabd said:


> The man speaketh the truth IMO. It's not for all people in all circumstances, but they add value value for a number of us. Most of us do not have pro contracts or the bike handling skills that pros do, so that argument hasn't deterred me. I have only tried them on test rides thus far, but I really like them. I personally don't see much of a downside unless you are trying to build a super light bike and even then it seems like BMC has been able to address that issue to some degree, so the pros outweigh the cons for me. Different strokes for different folks though.


you haven't got the memo about maintenance, adjustment with wheel changes etc.
But you will.


----------



## spdntrxi

11spd said:


> Excuse me...my bad. Didn't know it was based upon current bike sizing.
> 
> On a whimsical note, more than 1/2 the riders on the road have bad fit...so it follows that if new fit is based upon past fit, not the best result.
> 
> My thought is if one throws down 8 grand for a new bike, a $200 fit isn't out of line.


Agreed on that last point


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## Cni2i

dcorn said:


> True. I guess I'm just worried my fit would make the spacers necessary, and the bike looks terrible with anything but a slammed stem.


Agreed. Imo, unless the stem is slammed or just about completely slammed on this Vias, it just looks aesthetically unpleasing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

dcorn said:


> True. I guess I'm just worried my fit would make the spacers necessary, and the bike looks terrible with anything but a slammed stem.


A problem if constantly under scrutiny by the fashion police. To me, being beholden to this standard shouldn't be the priority. I see too many riding slammed set ups that never use the drops. If you don't ride slammed and aero, it could be argued that the Venge VIAS isn't for you...or maybe it does help the average guy on some level.

Throwing the stock stem in the bin and going conventional stem and reaping the other benefits of the bike makes sense. Me...I move my set up around a bit so the VIAS wouldn't be my bike of choice but I like the Madone more anyway.

But I have ridden the VIAS and I liked it and it is a fast bike without a doubt and I liked the ride of it as well and handling. And...I liked the slab sidedness of the bike...a cool looking bike...but the stem and spacer stack has to be the ugliest in the industry though no doubt saves 0.1 watts at 35 mph ;-)


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## tom_h

Will the seat stays fall off the bike? ;-) Superficially seems same design as some of the failed Venge VIAS.

In general, I am hating all this proprietary crap on newer bikes, as well as the fad for matte/flat black on the high end framesets.

Even on bikes that have a splash of color, the bulk of bike is often flat black. Fortunately, at least Trek & BMC are not jumping on the flat black fad.


----------



## thumper8888

tom_h said:


> Will the seat stays fall off the bike? ;-) Superficially seems same design as some of the failed Venge VIAS.
> 
> In general, I am hating all this proprietary crap on newer bikes, as well as the fad for matte/flat black on the high end framesets.
> 
> Even on bikes that have a splash of color, the bulk of bike is often flat black. Fortunately, at least Trek & BMC are not jumping on the flat black fad.


The Vias issues were unrelated to the design, construction or attachment method for the seat stays... it was strictly a problem with the dropouts allowing rear wheels to pop out of drops and torque sideways hard enough to rip the stays off. Seen no reports of the stays failing on their own.
These on the tarmac are surely more study than the current ones, at least if they are engineered to a standard similar to Venge.


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## Specialkized

I'm constantly surprised how many cyclists shape their perspective of a bike based on how they think it looks. I'm sure the cyclists of 100 years ago would look at all our bikes today and think they look horrible. I tend to think about bikes in terms of performance & ride quality based on what the bike is designed to do well. The Venge VIAS has an advertised focus around aero and speed. In that vein, I think it performs well - certainly well enough to win races and not just for the pros. In my experience it's a very fast bike, which is hard to explain until you've held 28mph for 5-10 miles where you can almost feel the aerodynamics working for you. Is the "Venge look" ugly or cool?? That's in the eye of the beholder but I can tell you, that is the look of fast!


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## Rashadabd

Specialkized said:


> I'm constantly surprised how many cyclists shape their perspective of a bike based on how they think it looks. I'm sure the cyclists of 100 years ago would look at all our bikes today and think they look horrible. I tend to think about bikes in terms of performance & ride quality based on what the bike is designed to do well. The Venge VIAS has an advertised focus around aero and speed. In that vein, I think it performs well - certainly well enough to win races and not just for the pros. In my experience it's a very fast bike, which is hard to explain until you've held 28mph for 5-10 miles where you can almost feel the aerodynamics working for you. Is the "Venge look" ugly or cool?? That's in the eye of the beholder but I can tell you, that is the look of fast!


It's like cars or motorcycles, people just aren't going to typically spend this kind of money on something they think is ugly. This is especially true when good looking options are similarly priced or cheaper. Most of us like to look good while riding and want equipment that looks good too. It is what it is.


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## Specialkized

thumper8888 said:


> This is an unusually sane thread. Specialized could have used you guys for a focus group. Can't anyone weigh in with something angry or ignorant? Geez, doesn't even feel like the internet.


LOL!! Just reading this whole thread and WOW!!

Sorry people, I'm new here and clearly a Specialized fan but really, what's with all the Specialized bashing?!? Maybe there's a history here I'm not aware of?

- Problems with the one bolt seat post?? Seriously, I've had a dozen Specialized bikes with this design and never had a problem with one, on road or MTB.

- Proprietary design?? Like what, the seat post?? Even on the Venge VAIS disc it's just the seat post.

- Crappy hidden seat post clamp?? Really?? Who had problems with this??

- Lack luster re-design?? So you're judging years worth of work by countless engineers based solely on some spy photos? Suppose the frame is Fact 12R carbon with graphene and is super light while still strong and stiff? I'd leave some room for the possibility that this bike could be awesome. Why? Well, they do have a track record.


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## Rashadabd

Moreover, the Venge is not alone in providing that level of aerodynamics. Some tests have indicated that it's not even the most aero road bike out there.


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## Specialkized

Agreed on all accounts. 

The Venge is certainly very aero and I'm sure Specialized will upsell the aero efficiencies of the new Tarmac. That said, once you get to a certain point, you'd really need to be an aerodynamicist with some very sophisticated gear to test and measure aerodynamics and compare against another bike. 

From a rider perspective, I can definitely experience the aero difference between my Tarmac and my Venge VIAS but that may not be true for everyone. Truthfully, I'm not convinced even a pro could quantify the aero differences between the best aero bikes. So when it comes down to which bikes we buy, other factors are also important like weight, ride quality, cost, and yes looks I suppose. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I sort of consider myself a platform guy. That is, I invest in a cycling platform that adds more value to each bike on the platform. Right now, that platform is Specialized / Shimano / Castelli. I'm not blind to the other great bikes & gear out there but for the time being, I'm pretty happy with my platform. So when I'm deciding on a new bike, the Specialized platform already has value for me. 

Just my $0.02


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## Rashadabd

Specialkized said:


> Agreed on all accounts.
> 
> The Venge is certainly very aero and I'm sure Specialized will upsell the aero efficiencies of the new Tarmac. That said, once you get to a certain point, you'd really need to be an aerodynamicist with some very sophisticated gear to test and measure aerodynamics and compare against another bike.
> 
> From a rider perspective, I can definitely experience the aero difference between my Tarmac and my Venge VIAS but that may not be true for everyone. Truthfully, I'm not convinced even a pro could quantify the aero differences between the best aero bikes. So when it comes down to which bikes we buy, other factors are also important like weight, ride quality, cost, and yes looks I suppose.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I sort of consider myself a platform guy. That is, I invest in a cycling platform that adds more value to each bike on the platform. Right now, that platform is Specialized / Shimano / Castelli. I'm not blind to the other great bikes & gear out there but for the time being, I'm pretty happy with my platform. So when I'm deciding on a new bike, the Specialized platform already has value for me.
> 
> Just my $0.02


Lots of people have their favorite bike brands and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Specialized is as legitimate a favorite as any. That being said, I tend to shop for best overall value and try to avoid brand loyalty on most products as much as possible. I am currently building up a Ridley after having a Felt, Cervelo, Specialized, Focus, Cannondale, Specialized kind of run. I feel fairly comfortable saying that there isn't a huge performance difference between brands once you control for having a similar carbon layup and components. I mostly learned that during the ridiculous number of test rides I have been fortunate to enjoy. Get what you like, to each his own and all. I just recommend that you don't go too far in thinking it is somehow inherently better than what someone else is riding because of the brand name on it. I think that part is mostly fiction.


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## Rashadabd

Duplicate


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## Rashadabd

Oh and this may interest you (or not):

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...magazine-2016-aero-road-bike-test-352569.html

Which aero bike is actually the fastest? (video) - Cycling Weekly

Which aero bike is actually the fastest? (video) - Cycling Weekly


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## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> Agreed on all accounts.
> 
> The Venge is certainly very aero and I'm sure Specialized will upsell the aero efficiencies of the new Tarmac. That said, once you get to a certain point, you'd really need to be an aerodynamicist with some very sophisticated gear to test and measure aerodynamics and compare against another bike.
> 
> From a rider perspective, I can definitely experience the aero difference between my Tarmac and my Venge VIAS but that may not be true for everyone. Truthfully, I'm not convinced even a pro could quantify the aero differences between the best aero bikes. So when it comes down to which bikes we buy, other factors are also important like weight, ride quality, cost, and yes looks I suppose.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I sort of consider myself a platform guy. That is, I invest in a cycling platform that adds more value to each bike on the platform. Right now, that platform is Specialized / Shimano / Castelli. I'm not blind to the other great bikes & gear out there but for the time being, I'm pretty happy with my platform. So when I'm deciding on a new bike, the Specialized platform already has value for me.
> 
> Just my $0.02


Curious if you believe your VIAS is a faster bike for certain types of riding?...compared to Tarmac?. Are you a racer? Is so, what CAT level? What speeds do you normally paceline at?
Do you ride the same wheelset on both Tarmac and VIAS?

Nobody knows better than the guy that owns both bikes so curious what your observations are....Thanks.

Lastly, I am baffled by the following comment you made, "That is, I invest in a cycling platform that adds more value to each bike on the platform."

Can you embellish upon this a bit? What does is mean to add value, aka cost/benefit to each bike on a given platform? Define platform if you would please. I am trying to understand your distillation of value relative to a given bike, component and how this relates to your concept of platform.


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## Specialkized

Exactly! Thanks for posting the links.


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## Specialkized

To say the Venge VIAS is faster is a bit misleading. The question is faster under what conditions? In that sense, it takes less energy to sustain higher speeds on the Venge VIAS than the Tarmac. This is more than just numbers, you can really experience this on the ride. As stated previously, at speeds over 25MPH these aero benefits become dramatically more apparent. 

So then how do you get to speeds over 25MPH? You could just point the bike down a steep hill and you will certainly experience these aero advantages. Conversely, if you point the bike up a steep hill, even as a strong rider, these benefits are less differential. Indeed, the extra weight of the Venge might make it slower than the Tarmac up steep technical terrain.

As for myself, I am NOT a racer, nor do I ride in a paceline. I'm an enthusiast solo rider who likes to go fast over distance. At 300W over undulating (not steep technical) terrain, the Venge is very fast. Places where I average 24MPH on my Tarmac I can average 28MPH or more on the Venge. Also, head winds are a bummer but not as soul crushing as they are on the Tarmac. The challenge on the Venge is to climb as well vs. the Tarmac and I love to climb hills. Here, the Tarmac is definitely faster though the difference isn't as pronounced as I had feared it would be. So right now, I'm noodling on what I can do to make my Venge climb better since it crushes the flats already.

I am running the CLX64s on the Venge vs. the CLX40s on the Tarmac and they are both disc bikes. They are also both sporting the S-Works Aerofly bars and Di2.

As to my comments about platform. Investing in several bikes from the same brand breeds cross compatibility and uniformity of many components. This is especially true of Specialized because they make a lot more than just the frame. Wheels, seatposts, stems, bars, cranksets, chainrings, powermeters, seats etc. are uniform and compatible across most of the bikes I own. It also buys me a lot of good will from my local Specialized dealer who's support has improved my overall cycling experience immensely. Not saying that everyone should do it this way, just that it's been of value to me. I will say, it pays to buy a bike that is supported locally by a strong dealer network and Specialized has been great for that. I've been cycling across the US and even a few international destinations and the ubiquity of the Specialized brand is awesome. Especially when traveling with your bike, as often do.


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## Migen21

tom_h said:


> Fortunately, at least Trek & BMC are not jumping on the flat black fad.


I'll just leave this here...


----------



## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> To say the Venge VIAS is faster is a bit misleading. The question is faster under what conditions? In that sense, it takes less energy to sustain higher speeds on the Venge VIAS than the Tarmac. This is more than just numbers, you can really experience this on the ride. As stated previously, at speeds over 25MPH these aero benefits become dramatically more apparent.
> 
> So then how do you get to speeds over 25MPH? You could just point the bike down a steep hill and you will certainly experience these aero advantages. Conversely, if you point the bike up a steep hill, even as a strong rider, these benefits are less differential. Indeed, the extra weight of the Venge might make it slower than the Tarmac up steep technical terrain.
> 
> As for myself, I am NOT a racer, nor do I ride in a paceline. I'm an enthusiast solo rider who likes to go fast over distance. At 300W over undulating (not steep technical) terrain, the Venge is very fast. Places where I average 24MPH on my Tarmac I can average 28MPH or more on the Venge. Also, head winds are a bummer but not as soul crushing as they are on the Tarmac. The challenge on the Venge is to climb as well vs. the Tarmac and I love to climb hills. Here, the Tarmac is definitely faster though the difference isn't as pronounced as I had feared it would be. So right now, I'm noodling on what I can do to make my Venge climb better since it crushes the flats already.
> 
> I am running the CLX64s on the Venge vs. the CLX40s on the Tarmac and they are both disc bikes. They are also both sporting the S-Works Aerofly bars and Di2.
> 
> As to my comments about platform. Investing in several bikes from the same brand breeds cross compatibility and uniformity of many components. This is especially true of Specialized because they make a lot more than just the frame. Wheels, seatposts, stems, bars, cranksets, chainrings, powermeters, seats etc. are uniform and compatible across most of the bikes I own. It also buys me a lot of good will from my local Specialized dealer who's support has improved my overall cycling experience immensely. Not saying that everyone should do it this way, just that it's been of value to me. I will say, it pays to buy a bike that is supported locally by a strong dealer network and Specialized has been great for that. I've been cycling across the US and even a few international destinations and the ubiquity of the Specialized brand is awesome. Especially when traveling with your bike, as often do.


You and I believe in a very different truth. First...I believe its ridiculous to say that the Venge at 28 mph has the equivalent drag as a Tarmac at 24 mph. That is preposterous unless you have a sail connected to the Tarmac and riding into a head wind. With equivalent wheels and riding position the difference between the two bikes at 28 mph is probably less than 1 mph if that...again, based upon windage.

Also, as I suspected you are conflating usage of the term platform with brand. Platform is a given type of product or subassembly. A groupset is a platform...say electric versus mechanical shifting. Braking is a platform...rim versus disk. Even bikes are a platform in terms of genre...road bike versus mtb is an example. You are using the term platform synonomous with brand.

That said and a bit more comedy....I even disagree with you sticking with a brand for economy or value derived. There is very little in fact as most bikes use exclusive parts and when they don't, brand has nothing to do with it. Providing spacing is correct for example, disk wheels on a BMC will fit a Tarmac or a Madone. How much cross compatibility is there in groupset? Most groupsets can be installed on any bike.
You can't put a Venge VIAS stem or seat post on a Tarmac. A Specialized saddle will fit on a Giant. Most cranks...or at least many can be used on different bikes with the right BB conversion, independent of BB shell width. So brand has little to do with value added or cross compatibility as you put it.

Aside from that, you said everything correctly. ...joking with you.

In any event you own two nice bikes, enjoy them and ride safe.


----------



## vic bastige

Specialkized said:


> To say the Venge VIAS is faster is a bit misleading. The question is faster under what conditions? In that sense, it takes less energy to sustain higher speeds on the Venge VIAS than the Tarmac. This is more than just numbers, you can really experience this on the ride. As stated previously, at speeds over 25MPH these aero benefits become dramatically more apparent.
> 
> So then how do you get to speeds over 25MPH? You could just point the bike down a steep hill and you will certainly experience these aero advantages. Conversely, if you point the bike up a steep hill, even as a strong rider, these benefits are less differential. Indeed, the extra weight of the Venge might make it slower than the Tarmac up steep technical terrain.
> 
> As for myself, I am NOT a racer, nor do I ride in a paceline. I'm an enthusiast solo rider who likes to go fast over distance. At 300W over undulating (not steep technical) terrain, the Venge is very fast. Places where I average 24MPH on my Tarmac I can average 28MPH or more on the Venge. Also, head winds are a bummer but not as soul crushing as they are on the Tarmac. The challenge on the Venge is to climb as well vs. the Tarmac and I love to climb hills. Here, the Tarmac is definitely faster though the difference isn't as pronounced as I had feared it would be. So right now, I'm noodling on what I can do to make my Venge climb better since it crushes the flats already.
> 
> I am running the CLX64s on the Venge vs. the CLX40s on the Tarmac and they are both disc bikes. They are also both sporting the S-Works Aerofly bars and Di2.
> 
> As to my comments about platform. Investing in several bikes from the same brand breeds cross compatibility and uniformity of many components. This is especially true of Specialized because they make a lot more than just the frame. Wheels, seatposts, stems, bars, cranksets, chainrings, powermeters, seats etc. are uniform and compatible across most of the bikes I own. It also buys me a lot of good will from my local Specialized dealer who's support has improved my overall cycling experience immensely. Not saying that everyone should do it this way, just that it's been of value to me. I will say, it pays to buy a bike that is supported locally by a strong dealer network and Specialized has been great for that. I've been cycling across the US and even a few international destinations and the ubiquity of the Specialized brand is awesome. Especially when traveling with your bike, as often do.


I'll say this: if you can average 28mph over rolling terrain by yourself for any kind of sustained distance, you may not race but you ought to.

As for this thread, I almost never check in on Specialized because of lack of interest, but MAN have I been missing some fun.


----------



## Specialkized

11spd said:


> You and I believe in a very different truth. First...I believe its ridiculous to say that the Venge at 28 mph has the equivalent drag as a Tarmac at 24 mph. That is preposterous unless you have a sail connected to the Tarmac and riding into a head wind. With equivalent wheels and riding position the difference between the two bikes at 28 mph is probably less than 1 mph if that...again, based upon windage.
> 
> Also, as I suspected you are conflating usage of the term platform with brand. Platform is a given type of product or subassembly. A groupset is a platform...say electric versus mechanical shifting. Braking is a platform...rim versus disk. Even bikes are a platform in terms of genre...road bike versus mtb is an example. You are using the term platform synonomous with brand.
> 
> That said and a bit more comedy....I even disagree with you sticking with a brand for economy or value derived. There is very little in fact as most bikes use exclusive parts and when they don't, brand has nothing to do with it. Providing spacing is correct for example, disk wheels on a BMC will fit a Tarmac or a Madone. How much cross compatibility is there in groupset? Most groupsets can be installed on any bike.
> You can't put a Venge VIAS stem or seat post on a Tarmac. A Specialized saddle will fit on a Giant. Most cranks...or at least many can be used on different bikes with the right BB conversion, independent of BB shell width. So brand has little to do with value added or cross compatibility as you put it.
> 
> Aside from that, you said everything correctly. ...joking with you.
> 
> In any event you own two nice bikes, enjoy them and ride safe.


Just speaking from my own experience on the Tarmac vs. the Venge at speed. While I have about 4000 miles on my Tarmac I only have about 500 on the Venge so there's still more to learn here. Perhaps my enthusiasm for the Venge inspires me to pedal harder, or the fit leverages muscles differently? In any case, I'm faster over rolling terrain on the Venge, our world of cycling tech has clearly documented that. Your results may vary.

As to "platform", yes I think brand factors into the equation. So when I say I run Shimano Di2 disc as a platform vs. say, mechanical rim brake SRAM, brand makes a difference. But most of all, brand matters to me, regardless of what others might think. Could I put my Specialized S-Works cranks on a BMC frame? Probably, but I would never do that because it doesn't feel quite right to me. Would I swap cranksets between my Venge, my Tarmac, my Crux, or my Roubaix? Of course, and my comfort in doing so I partially related to the brand identity. 

In reality, the value of any brand per se, is highly individual and is as much perception as reality. Which accounts for why two different people can have vastly different perceptions of any particular brand value. The Specialized brand offers me a lot of value (dealer support, manufacturer support, culture, relationship, etc.). I've had the good fortune of spontaneously running into Mike Sinyard on two separate occasions and having very nice conversations with him. I also have tremendous respect for a business someone built up from scratch to become what Specialized is today. Do these perceptions and experiences shape my perspective of the brand? You bet they do! Again, your results / experience / perceptions might vary. 

Lastly, is this. My perspective does not require anyone's approval or acceptance nor does it condemn anyone else's perspective. I do not mean to imply that my approach is the best approach for anyone else, it's simply mine and I'm happy about it so I share. I encourage everyone to experiment and find an approach that makes them happy as well. :thumbsup:


----------



## goodboyr

You want fun? Go to the classics forum and watch that thread on quick release vs thru axle. 

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=360883

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> Just speaking from my own experience on the Tarmac vs. the Venge at speed. While I have about 4000 miles on my Tarmac I only have about 500 on the Venge so there's still more to learn here. Perhaps my enthusiasm for the Venge inspires me to pedal harder, or the fit leverages muscles differently? In any case, I'm faster over rolling terrain on the Venge, our world of cycling tech has clearly documented that. Your results may vary.
> 
> As to "platform", yes I think brand factors into the equation. So when I say I run Shimano Di2 disc as a platform vs. say, mechanical rim brake SRAM, brand makes a difference. But most of all, brand matters to me, regardless of what others might think. Could I put my Specialized S-Works cranks on a BMC frame? Probably, but I would never do that because it doesn't feel quite right to me. Would I swap cranksets between my Venge, my Tarmac, my Crux, or my Roubaix? Of course, and my comfort in doing so I partially related to the brand identity.
> 
> In reality, the value of any brand per se, is highly individual and is as much perception as reality. Which accounts for why two different people can have vastly different perceptions of any particular brand value. The Specialized brand offers me a lot of value (dealer support, manufacturer support, culture, relationship, etc.). I've had the good fortune of spontaneously running into Mike Sinyard on two separate occasions and having very nice conversations with him. I also have tremendous respect for a business someone built up from scratch to become what Specialized is today. Do these perceptions and experiences shape my perspective of the brand? You bet they do! Again, your results / experience / perceptions might vary.
> 
> Lastly, is this. My perspective does not require anyone's approval or acceptance nor does it condemn anyone else's perspective. I do not mean to imply that my approach is the best approach for anyone else, it's simply mine and I'm happy about it so I share. I encourage everyone to experiment and find an approach that makes them happy as well. :thumbsup:


Your last point first. Of course each of us are free to express what we believe in this case about the brand of Specialized...what the forum is for. But to me your conflation of brand and platform is oddly co-mingled...I honestly don't see any point to interjecting the concept of value when you speak of platform...or economies of sticking with a given platform. I have been at this for decades FWIW.

The last point. I can't tell you how common it is for a guy like yourself to say there is 4 mph differential in speed for the same watt expenditure say between an aero bike versus more conventional tube shape. It is utter nonsense. Placebo at its worse. So sorry to call you out and like yourself are free to post what you believe, so are others who may disagree. Perhaps we can agree Specialized makes great bikes. I sure believe this. Are they better than Giant, Cannondale, Trek, BMC, Cervelo and a host of others? Not in my experience. A CAT 2 on a $1K CAAD12 will dust a CAT 3 on 'any' $10K bike. Picking a bike for most is more akin to a beauty contest more than any bonafide technical advantage. That is of course my opinion and you are welcome to disagree of course.


----------



## Specialkized

vic bastige said:


> I'll say this: if you can average 28mph over rolling terrain by yourself for any kind of sustained distance, you may not race but you ought to.
> 
> As for this thread, I almost never check in on Specialized because of lack of interest, but MAN have I been missing some fun.


Ha! OK, so playing word games here. I had meant that in particular places where I would, on average, be traveling at 24MPH on my Tarmac, I find my self, on average, managing 28MPH on my Venge. 

Agreed, pulling 28MPH solo over any sustained distance is herculean. My best is something like 27MPH for like a mile or so, in the flat with no wind, before I start to blow up!


----------



## Specialkized

So then what do you think accounts for the difference in speeds / times of a typical road race bike like a Tarmac and a TT bike like the Shiv? The same riders are clearly much slower for the same watts on the less aero configuration, no?


----------



## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> So then what do you think accounts for the difference in speeds / times of a typical road race bike like a Tarmac and a TT bike like the Shiv? The same riders are clearly much slower for the same watts on the less aero configuration, no?


Now you are contrasting 'genres' of bicycles. We can compare a road bike to mountain bike as well...or a cruiser a senior may ride.

Difference between a TT bike and road bike is drag coefficient wrought by seat tube angle, hip angle, torso angle and net rider/bike drag coefficient. Within genres of bicycles there are fractional drag coef. differences for a given rider size and positon...but nothing approaching 4 mph between 24 and 30 mph.
For a good rider, there 'may' be a difference of 1 mph between a Roubaix and Venge with the same wheelset AND riding position.

In my particular riding group, the fastest CAT1 rider would be the fastest on steel, Al, aero tubes, regular tubes....it doesn't matter. Rider position and power to weight of a given rider are 99.99% of who is fastest. The bike is almost irrelevant if weight is close which matters even less on the flat.


----------



## Specialkized

You are aware that the Venge VIAS is said to have a similar drag coefficient to the Shiv TT? With CLX64 wheels and an aggressive riding position like the one I have, it's fast. 

So consider this. I'm more aero on my Venge because it's an aero bike and I've setup the bike to maximize that affect. Wheels, bars riding position, etc. 

I could certainly close the gap between the Venge and the Tarmac by setting up the Tarmac more like the Venge, but that would detract from the climbing capabilities of the Tarmac, for which it is better suited. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> You are aware that the Venge VIAS is said to have a similar drag coefficient to the Shiv TT? With CLX64 wheels and an aggressive riding position like the one I have, it's fast.
> 
> So consider this. I'm more aero on my Venge because it's an aero bike and I've setup the bike to maximize that affect. Wheels, bars riding position, etc.
> 
> I could certainly close the gap between the Venge and the Tarmac by setting up the Tarmac more like the Venge, but that would detract from the climbing capabilities of the Tarmac, for which it is better suited.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The VIAS like the Tarmac, Diverge, Roubaix and Allez are only fast with a fast rider on it. The bike doesn't make it fast.
You already said you can't maintain 27 mph for more than a mile in your own air...that puts you more in the average category. You really aren't a fast guy per se. 
Bike set up doesn't necessarily relate to speed. A guy can ride flat backed with the saddle the same height as the handlebars. So, I don't really care if you are running 3 inches more drop on your Venge than your Tarmac. If riding for speed, there is not 4 mph difference between the bikes. With similar wheelset, likely 1 mph if that at that speed..depending on windage. So your statement may in fact be your experience and if so, its because you haven't learned how to extract more speed out of your Tarmac. Not the bikes fault. The Tarmac has won countless tour races and is one of the fastest road bikes on the planet in the hands of a guy who knows how to get the speed out of it.


----------



## Specialkized

You just said that bike genre makes a difference, as a more aggressive bike like a TT bike affords a different body position that improves aerodynamics and overall speed. Now it doesn't matter?

So a fast guy can go just as fast on a beach cruiser as they can on a TT bike? Maybe they can "learn how to extract" the equivalent speed out of the beach cruiser?

You're kinda losing me here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> You just said that bike genre makes a difference, as a more aggressive bike like a TT bike affords a different body position that improves aerodynamics and overall speed. Now it doesn't matter?
> 
> So a fast guy can go just as fast on a beach cruiser as they can on a TT bike? Maybe they can "learn how to extract" the equivalent speed out of the beach cruiser?
> 
> You're kinda losing me here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To preface, we are just talking bikes so don't take this personally. I just don't agree with pretty much all you have written is all. You can't compare the position on a road bike with a TT bike. It doesn't matter that the bike itself...Shiv versus VIAS has close to equivalent drag coef in a wind tunnel without a rider. The rider accounts for 80% of the drag coef on a road bike. Riding on your elbows is more aerodynamic than riding with your hands on the hoods or drops. Generally a guy on a Shiv will be about 2 mph..if that...faster than on a Venge or Tarmac. This is due to body position...more upright seat tube angle, more rotated pelvis, flatter back...a more aerodynamic riding position which a TT bike promotes. There isn't a lot of difference in aerodynamics between a TT bike and road bike by itself.

Below is a bike that started life as a mountain bike I built for single track...a Ti 29er I put together a few years back frameset up....which morphed over time into a sporty townie of sorts.. Eventually I removed the front shock fork...went rigid in front, put 28c tires on it, single ring in front. It is long since gone as I prefer pretty much all my bikes to have drop bars but I really enjoyed that bike riding in all kind of conditions. 

On occasion I would ride it in the A group with tennis shoes. It wasn't much slower than my road bike and used to have a lot of fun out on the road with guys on road bikes trying to drop me on it who didn't appreciate I could keep up on a flat bar bike with mtb bones. I could bend at the waist and get my back close to flat. I have hit 30 mph on the flat on it. Its the rider and not the bike and I am just a decent recreational cyclist all said. The CAT1 that rides in our group can easily drop anybody else on a VIAS in our group on the bike shown and there are some very fast guys in our group that can drop me on any bike.


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## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> On occasion I would ride it in the A group with tennis shoes. It wasn't much slower than my road bike and used to have a lot of fun out on the road with guys on road bikes trying to drop me on it who didn't appreciate I could keep up on a flat bar bike with mtb bones.


Common, tennis shoes? Keeping up with the A group? BS

How about this scenario, like a lot of teams out there, they try and keep things together most of the times. They were just slowing down for you to keep up. Even if you were keeping up, you were in the back, in the draft. That's not the same.

We have a world champion on our team, I've ridden with him a few times up to Sunset on Mount Rainier. I can keep up with him going up until the last 10%. Then I just drop back. He usually sees this and guess what, so does he. I'm also certain he does not put the hurt on for the full one hour of pain too.

On my team, you would not be allowed to ride if you brought that. It's against the bylaws plain and simple.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> Common, tennis shoes? Keeping up with the A group? BS
> 
> How about this scenario, like a lot of teams out there, they try and keep things together most of the times. They were just slowing down for you to keep up. Even if you were keeping up, you were in the back, in the draft. That's not the same.
> 
> We have a world champion on our team, I've ridden with him a few times up to Sunset on Mount Rainier. I can keep up with him going up until the last 10%. Then I just drop back. He usually sees this and guess what, so does he. I'm also certain he does not put the hurt on for the full one hour of pain too.
> 
> On my team, you would not be allowed to ride if you brought that. It's against the bylaws plain and simple.


You have to learn a bit more about cycling and pedal stroke. If you have a clean pedaling stroke....I do and likely you don't, then being clipped in for 'steady state riding' does NOT matter relative to speed for power expenditure. 

You got to get out and ride with better riders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM

Now a guy like you will read this and not understand the test or result. Racing in platform pedals is fool hardy. There is no comparison sprinting or even severe climbing where being clipped in matters for the upstroke. For steady state riding...say at 23mph in your own air or paceline, for a good rider with a good pedal stroke, there is virtually NO difference.


----------



## Devastazione

See ? From a 2018 Tarmac model we ended up talking about aerodinamics,Ti bikes,pedal strokes and whatever. You can tell is a Specialized's topic,really :thumbsup:


----------



## Specialkized

Haha, so back to the 2018 Tarmac. I can't wait to check it out. Looks kind of like the BMC SLR01, which I've been sort of drooling over. I love the integrated cockpit and clean lines of that bike. Supposedly very light but I've never seen any real world numbers. I really love my current Tarmac and have high hopes for the new model. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 11spd

Specialkized said:


> Haha, so back to the 2018 Tarmac. I can't wait to check it out. Looks kind of like the BMC SLR01, which I've been sort of drooling over. I love the integrated cockpit and clean lines of that bike. Supposedly very light but I've never seen any real world numbers. I really love my current Tarmac and have high hopes for the new model.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you wrench on your bikes? Most that do hate integrated cockpits...no adjustability and cables that route through the stem. Huge PITA and for what? So Specialized can claim a .5 watt savings at 30 mph where even accomplished elite amateurs never ride? Gotta love the beauty of marketing and sounds like you are their target demographic....which is fine of course....somebody has to pay the bills for Specialized.


Hey butcher...I have one for you that may make you giggle. The Tarmac is slowly evolving into a BMW 7 series and btw for the same reason....profit aka complexity to create market differentiation to upsell with no value added. The VIAS is already there...right down to its rim brakes.


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## Devastazione

11spd said:


> Hey butcher...I have one for you that may make you giggle. The Tarmac is slowly evolving into a BMW 7 series and btw for the same reason....profit aka complexity to create market differentiation to upsell with no value added. The VIAS is already there...right down to its rim brakes.


Spot on. Since I've moved to another brand I feel like I'm enjoying cycling again rather than looking like a fuken peacock strolling around with it's "so last year" 7 months old Sworks...:mad2:


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## Specialkized

11spd said:


> Do you wrench on your bikes? Most that do hate integrated cockpits...no adjustability and cables that route through the stem. Huge PITA and for what? So Specialized can claim a .5 watt savings at 30 mph where even accomplished elite amateurs never ride? Gotta love the beauty of marketing and sounds like you are their target demographic....which is fine of course....somebody has to pay the bills for Specialized.
> 
> 
> Hey butcher...I have one for you that may make you giggle. The Tarmac is slowly evolving into a BMW 7 series and btw for the same reason....profit aka complexity to create market differentiation to upsell with no value added. The VIAS is already there...right down to its rim brakes.


I build all my own bikes now and I didn't find the Venge difficult to build at all. Only took about two hours to build from a bare frame set. I really appreciate the clean aesthetics and the aero gains are undeniable. ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rashadabd

I definitely see some of this. Innovation solely for the sake of saying we innovated not because it truly adds anything to the ride experience. At some point, you are spending a lot of dough for something that doesn't really matter at all. Everything has trade offs and what you typically want is a useful balance. For this reason, I am actually liking the new Cervelo R Series the most right now, but I am holding out for more details on the new Emonda (which I am not all that fond of at first glance) and to see what Giant and others release. The Tarmac is cool, but I think there are more appealing designs coming out this year.


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## fritzbox

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVNZyFSAscF/

Gesendet von meinem SM-T805 mit Tapatalk


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## Devastazione

fritzbox said:


> https://www.instagram.com/p/BVNZyFSAscF/
> 
> Gesendet von meinem SM-T805 mit Tapatalk


Now we're talking. The bike looks good,no question.


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## 1Butcher

@11sp, It's always funny how you make a statement and then twist what I said. Remember the term you used? Oh, that's right, TENNIS SHOES! That's what I'm talking about. 300 watts on a rubber sole is not ideal. My feet would not make it the entire ride. Since I called BS on your statement, your feet never finished the ride because the ride never started. 

Show me a video indicating that tennis shoes are the way to show up to a club ride.


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## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> Hey butcher...I have one for you that may make you giggle. The Tarmac is slowly evolving into a BMW 7 series and btw for the same reason....profit aka complexity to create market differentiation to upsell with no value added.


Everything on an BMW E65 is junk. It got better with the F01, but not much better. I cannot say that about a Tarmac or anything else Specialize makes. To make it clear, I'm not a bike mechanic and therefore I do not know everything about bikes or Specialized.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> @11sp, It's always funny how you make a statement and then twist what I said. Remember the term you used? Oh, that's right, TENNIS SHOES! That's what I'm talking about. 300 watts on a rubber sole is not ideal. My feet would not make it the entire ride. Since I called BS on your statement, your feet never finished the ride because the ride never started.
> 
> Show me a video indicating that tennis shoes are the way to show up to a club ride.


I don't have any video. Why I told you, you need to get out and ride more. You have never heard of CAT 1's showing up on a fixie with platform pedals and dropping the group? Why I said, you need to ride more with better riders. I have been dropped by guys in tennis shoes and I have dropped countless riders on the road in tennis shoes. I ride about 25% of the time in tennis shoes FWIW depending on my route.
With the right platform pedal with sharp screws for traction..Wellgo MG-3 is my choice, the foot is adequately supported. Further, you need to ride more off road where you will get dropped as well if you partipate as a lot of CAT1's and 2's also train off road and many don't clip in and ride with shoes of varying sole stiffness.

So get out and get more experience and then come on the internet and give your opinion. It isn't me who writes BS, it is you.


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## TricrossRich

You know what makes me smile? People that spend their time on the internet going into message boards to talk about brands or products they don't own or don't like and suggest to those that do own or like the product that they ought to waste less time on the internet and get out and ride.... that's funny stuff.


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## goodboyr

I'm getting a distinct sense of deja vu......time for some pre thread lockdown popcorn.....

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## tranzformer

11spd said:


> The last point. I can't tell you how common it is for a guy like yourself to say there is 4 mph differential in speed for the same watt expenditure say between an aero bike versus more conventional tube shape. It is utter nonsense. Placebo at its worse. So sorry to call you out and like yourself are free to post what you believe, so are others who may disagree. Perhaps we can agree Specialized makes great bikes. I sure believe this. Are they better than Giant, Cannondale, Trek, BMC, Cervelo and a host of others? Not in my experience. A CAT 2 on a $1K CAAD12 will dust a CAT 3 on 'any' $10K bike. Picking a bike for most is more akin to a beauty contest more than any bonafide technical advantage. That is of course my opinion and you are welcome to disagree of course.





11spd said:


> Now you are contrasting 'genres' of bicycles. We can compare a road bike to mountain bike as well...or a cruiser a senior may ride.
> 
> Difference between a TT bike and road bike is drag coefficient wrought by seat tube angle, hip angle, torso angle and net rider/bike drag coefficient. Within genres of bicycles there are fractional drag coef. differences for a given rider size and positon...but nothing approaching 4 mph between 24 and 30 mph.
> For a good rider, there 'may' be a difference of 1 mph between a Roubaix and Venge with the same wheelset AND riding position.
> 
> In my particular riding group, the fastest CAT1 rider would be the fastest on steel, Al, aero tubes, regular tubes....it doesn't matter. Rider position and power to weight of a given rider are 99.99% of who is fastest. The bike is almost irrelevant if weight is close which matters even less on the flat.


You are contrasting genres of riders. No one is claiming a bike can power itself, so I don't know why you keep talking about comparing a CAT1 vs. a average cyclist. That makes zero sense. 

A CAT1 rider on a Venge VIAS will be quicker than himself (that same exact rider) on a current production Tarmac. That is true all the way up until you start climbing (the math is ~8% gradient where weight starts mattering more than aero). But at today's weight of some aero frames, a pro-team can still get their aero road frame down to 6.8kg easily. So there isn't an advantage of going with a super light frame if you have to add weights to the frame to get it to the legal weight limit. 

Again, stop talking about a CAT1 rider on a 1930s frame vs. a average cyclist on a $10k Venge VIAS. Talk about that same CAT1 rider on a 1930s frame vs. that same rider on a Venge VIAS. Or better yet, talk about the CAT1 rider putting out 400w on poor equipment choices vs. a fellow CAT1 rider also putting out 400w but on properly selected equipment choices.


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## 1Butcher

comparing apple to apples? What a concept. We should try that and see where this thread will go.


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## TricrossRich

Looks good in Sagan livery.


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## tranzformer

Looks good in larger sizes. Looks weird in the smaller frame sizes.


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## mile2424

TricrossRich said:


> Looks good in Sagan livery.


Looks 10x better in that size and with some paint on it! I knew a Sagan version would change my mind!


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## MMsRepBike

mile2424 said:


> Looks 10x better in that size and with some paint on it! I knew a Sagan version would change my mind!


Still looks exactly the same to me as the original project black pictures.

Well it has sparkly paint on it of course, but the bike looks the same to me.

Whatever works for you though.


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## mile2424

Not just the paint, the proportions look way different. Dan Martin's is probably a 52 or something and just looks squished and un-proportional to me. Of course the features look the same, but the junctions and tube sizes seem to flow better to me on the Sagan.


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## dcorn

MMsRepBike said:


> Still looks exactly the same to me as the original project black pictures.
> 
> Well it has sparkly paint on it of course, but the bike looks the same to me.
> 
> Whatever works for you though.


It's not exactly the same. Larger size and different paint make a huge difference. 

If you don't like the bike, just don't comment on it. No need to **** on everyone else that is excited about it, but then what else would you do on this forum?


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## taodemon

It definitely looks better with some paint on it and in a more standard size, but in a way it just looks like a non aero vias. If only they would now copy some of this over to VIAS platform and make a version that can use these direct mount brakes, standard stem and at the weight of the original venge and they might have something.


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## tyrich88

mile2424 said:


> Basically a carbon allez sprint


EXACTLY. And Specialized has released nothing hinting that this was a tarmac (Not that i've seen anyways). In fact all I've heard is that the tarmac is under pretty tight wraps until release date
In light of that...I'm kind of wondering if it actually is a carbon allez sprint. 
That bike has gained a pretty huge following, so i think it's a possibility.


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## Rashadabd

tyrich88 said:


> EXACTLY. And Specialized has released nothing hinting that this was a tarmac (Not that i've seen anyways). In fact all I've heard is that the tarmac is under pretty tight wraps until release date
> In light of that...I'm kind of wondering if it actually is a carbon allez sprint.
> That bike has gained a pretty huge following, so i think it's a possibility.


I highly doubt this is the case. It just doesn't make sense to release both a new Tarmac and a "carbon Allez Sprint" the same year. Too much overlap. Moreover, even if you did, you wouldn't have all of your world tour riders testing the carbon sprint instead of your flagship bike before the most popular race of the year. Finally, multiple news outlets have already confirmed that Specialized has received UCI approval for a 2018 Tarmac and Tarmac Disc not a carbon sprint. What we are probably seeing is the Tarmac becoming a bit more like the Allen Sprint.


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## tyrich88

Rashadabd said:


> multiple news outlets have already confirmed that Specialized has received UCI approval for a 2018 Tarmac and Tarmac Disc not a carbon sprint.


That is the information I was missing then. My bad.
Tarmac it is!


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## taodemon

Sagan has won twice now on the new Tarmac which probably means it doesn't suck completely.


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## goodboyr

Lol. You haven't been reading this thread. It's not about the bike......

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## MartinR.

taodemon said:


> Sagan has won twice now on the new Tarmac which probably means it doesn't suck completely.


Sagan said in an interview that he was feeling good, implying that it's not about the bike...Perhaps with an old Tarmac he would have won by a mile. Remember these guys are under NDA...


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## 11spd

taodemon said:


> It definitely looks better with some paint on it and in a more standard size, but in a way it just looks like a non aero vias. If only they would now copy some of this over to VIAS platform and make a version that can use these direct mount brakes, standard stem and at the weight of the original venge and they might have something.


Here's the thing. Greed is at play here. Think about the Allez, Tarmac and VIAS. They are converging on some level. Specialized, like Trek has a marketing challenge....keeping all their bikes relevant to sell each model and make money. The Allez is basically just an Al Tarmac that weighs just a few grams more for $1K less. Specialized is now giving the Tarmac an aero seat post like the Allez has had for a while. With the further aero hues Specialized has now given the Tarmac, I don't understand your comment honestly because there is less and less difference between the Tarmac and VIAS. So making the VIAS more like the Tarmac with conventional stem and direct mount brakes which btw, I also prefer...basically just turns the VIAS into the new Tarmac.

Truthfully, I believe you can have your cake and eat it too. With modern design, its now proven that an aero bike doesn't have to be boat anchor heavy or ride like a farm truck. The new Madone proves this.

From a consumer standpoint, a pretty special time to be in the market for a new bike. Technology has really upped the ante even though its always been mostly about the rider.


----------



## 1Butcher

11spd said:


> Truthfully, I believe you can have your cake and eat it too. With modern design, its now proven that an aero bike doesn't have to be boat anchor heavy or ride like a farm truck.


I never thought you would drink the Koolaid but the marketing must be working.

Like everything made, it evolves and gets better. It takes marginal gains but after several years those small gains make it worth it. If people give up on the first attempt, you'll never know what could of been.


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## packetloss

MartinR. said:


> Sagan said in an interview that he was feeling good, implying that it's not about the bike...Perhaps with an old Tarmac he would have won by a mile. Remember these guys are under NDA...


I'm sure he could have and would have. I think the real takeaway from this is that none of the pros are riding the VIAS anymore even on flat sprint stages. Bottom line is all the compromises of the VIAS weight and brakes are just not worth it now that the new Tarmac narrows the aero gains of the VIAS.


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## taodemon

Well we still have no idea how much of an aero improvement is being made on the new tarmac. If it has the aero numbers of the old venge but feels like the current tarmac than it will be a good thing and really hurts what limited value the ViAS has. I don't think this will be the case as the tubes don't look as aero as the old venge but I guess we have to wait and see what their marketing claims. 

And my comments regarding a modified ViAS are in regards too (similar to what you are saying), you can have a light weight bike that is still aero as evidenced by the madone. I don't want disk brakes and the old ViAS brakes have issues. If they released a version with direct mount brakes while still having similar aero numbers to current vias, and none of the weight penalty I would be all over it. 

The madone I love the look of but the H1 frame is out of my budget. The ViAS price is a little more reasonable but I don't want the weight penalty for riding in new england.


----------



## 11spd

taodemon said:


> Well we still have no idea how much of an aero improvement is being made on the new tarmac. If it has the aero numbers of the old venge but feels like the current tarmac than it will be a good thing and really hurts what limited value the ViAS has. I don't think this will be the case as the tubes don't look as aero as the old venge but I guess we have to wait and see what their marketing claims.
> 
> And my comments regarding a modified ViAS are in regards too (similar to what you are saying), you can have a light weight bike that is still aero as evidenced by the madone. I don't want disk brakes and the old ViAS brakes have issues. If they released a version with direct mount brakes while still having similar aero numbers to current vias, and none of the weight penalty I would be all over it.
> 
> The madone I love the look of but the H1 frame is out of my budget. The ViAS price is a little more reasonable but I don't want the weight penalty for riding in new england.


And...of course Specialized has to be careful not only what they create but how they market it for the reasons you state. Who wants a VIAS if the Tarmac is almost as aero but without the tradeoffs of the VIAS at lower cost? With the Tarmac and Venge getting closer together...Tarmac more aero and Venge lighter with improved ride quality closer to the Tarmac, Specialized is now becoming more of a victim of itself. To me, you have to be a pretty serious racer if wanting to live with a Venge for slight aero difference...and if a group or solo rider...the vast majority....when riding in the cocoon of pace line or alone and not against the clock and/or doing some climbing, the Tarmac is the obvious choice.


----------



## packetloss

11spd said:


> And...of course Specialized has to be careful not only what they create but how they market it for the reasons you state. Who wants a VIAS if the Tarmac is almost as aero but without the tradeoffs of the VIAS at lower cost? With the Tarmac and Venge getting closer together...Tarmac more aero and Venge lighter with improved ride quality closer to the Tarmac, Specialized is now becoming more of a victim of itself. To me, you have to be a pretty serious racer if wanting to live with a Venge for slight aero difference...and if a group or solo rider...the vast majority....when riding in the cocoon of pace line or alone and not against the clock and/or doing some climbing, the Tarmac is the obvious choice.


Done properly, they should just merge the two lines. 


As much as I hate the brakes on the VIAS and agree it should be lighter, I have never had a problem with the comfort and road feel on it. I swap between it and my Tarmac both of which have been ridden on some pretty harsh roads and I really don't find much of a ride quality difference between the two.


That being said, I'd never EVER recommend the VIAS to anyone. The Tarmac is a far more useful bike and a much better design. Whoever designed the VIAS brakes should be shot. Whoever made the claim that the brakes were tested to be comparable to Dura Ace should be tortured and shot. I almost got killed on a ride because I couldn't stop fast enough due to the brakes. I honestly don't see how they made it through testing. For a $6000 frame it's completely unacceptable. If I could replace those brakes with Tiagra brakes I would do it in a heart beat.


----------



## taodemon

packetloss said:


> Done properly, they should just merge the two lines.


Agreed. It would be great to have a single bike that both climbed and handled excellently without sacrificing aero efficiency. 

Comfort wise I never had issues with my old venge and the new tarmac doesn't feel much different if at all in regards to comfort.


----------



## Arnoud

New Dutch Road Champion Chantal Blaak ( Boels Dolmans) was riding the new frame as well yesterday becoming the champion. 


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## tyrich88

Arnoud said:


> New Dutch Road Champion Chantal Blaak ( Boels Dolmans) was riding the new frame as well yesterday becoming the champion.
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


Good to know! The Amira needed an update!!!


----------



## TricrossRich

Looks like someone inadvertently checked the "live" button for a portion of the GB website that made the new Tarmac site active.

https://www.specialized.com/gb/gb/new-tarmac


----------



## Rashadabd

TricrossRich said:


> Looks like someone inadvertently checked the "live" button for a portion of the GB website that made the new Tarmac site active.
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/gb/gb/new-tarmac
> 
> View attachment 319549


That actually looks really nice with the paint.


----------



## taodemon

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/bikes/road/performance/tarmac

They are up on the specialized site. 

733 grams for a 56" frame. They show two framesets, a lightweight (I'm guessing the 733) and normal sworks frames (both versions 12r carbon). I wonder what the difference is or if it just the added paint weight? Supposedly 45s faster over 40km vs other light weight bikes in the category.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtTgCwaMA6I


----------



## Rashadabd

taodemon said:


> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/bikes/road/performance/tarmac
> 
> They are up on the specialized site.
> 
> 733 grams for a 56" frame. They show two framesets, a lightweight (I'm guessing the 733) and normal sworks frames (both versions 12r carbon). I wonder what the difference is or if it just the added paint weight? Supposedly 45s faster over 40km vs other light weight bikes in the category.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtTgCwaMA6I


Good looking out. Who in the world is working over in the Specialized IT department these days though? First, they accidently go live early, then they have GBP for all of the pricing... The bikes look good though. I wonder if these are all of the paint schemes that will be released?


----------



## smartyiak

What is "oil chameleon?" It looks like it could be awesome...but hard to tell on a computer screen.


----------



## Rashadabd

It looks like they stuck with their new standard of not offering the new frame until you reach the expert level for a compete bike and not offering the Fact 10 Carbon unit as a frameset at all. You have to go S-Works if you want a frameset. Everything below Expert level seems like it is the "SL5" now, which is still a really nice bike. Not sure that approach helps sales in the end, but this thing is sweet looking:

https://www.specialized.com/gb/gb/m...mens-sworks-tarmac-ultralight-frameset/153989

Part of me still thinks this is a link to the Great Britain site and that these might not even be the U.S. options...


----------



## Rashadabd

The more I look at it, it's clear they are still in the process of updating the site. They're also aren't any of the new disc models listed. I'm excited to see what else there is.... Thumbs up for both the new Diverge and Tarmac. I still like the new Cervelo R5 and BMC Teammachine a bunch as well, but this is a nice update.


----------



## thumper8888

11spd said:


> Here's the thing. Greed is at play here. Think about the Allez, Tarmac and VIAS. They are converging on some level. Specialized, like Trek has a marketing challenge....keeping all their bikes relevant to sell each model and make money. The Allez is basically just an Al Tarmac that weighs just a few grams more for $1K less. Specialized is now giving the Tarmac an aero seat post like the Allez has had for a while. With the further aero hues Specialized has now given the Tarmac, I don't understand your comment honestly because there is less and less difference between the Tarmac and VIAS. So making the VIAS more like the Tarmac with conventional stem and direct mount brakes which btw, I also prefer...basically just turns the VIAS into the new Tarmac.
> 
> Truthfully, I believe you can have your cake and eat it too. With modern design, its now proven that an aero bike doesn't have to be boat anchor heavy or ride like a farm truck. The new Madone proves this.
> 
> From a consumer standpoint, a pretty special time to be in the market for a new bike. Technology has really upped the ante even though its always been mostly about the rider.


These are great points, esp this about convergence. The bike companies can no longer ignore aerodynamics. When they are touting big benefits from aero, then trying to sell you, say, an SL4, they are fighting themselves.
Trek went ahead and made the jump early, specialized may be forced into it, and my guess would be the Venge line disappears and tarmac goes hidden cable, gets a bit more aero and boom, you're there.
When you can cut that much drag off a bike and still build the frame at 733 grams, not being aero makes no sense.

The convergence is noticeable in the real world. I can fairly easily feel the difference between the vias and an sl4 or last generation Allez.
With Allez Sprint sometimes I think yes, sometimes no.


----------



## thumper8888

First, because it is Specialized, I feel like the most important things are the marketing highlights:
1. Ahhh finally the mythical r12 carbon.
2. And in specs its actually labelled SL6.
3. And then there's the now mandatory 40k time savings.
4. And lastly, thank god, now there is yet another level above S-works. "ultralight."
If they can pop a special "McLaren ultralight" out of the oven in a few months with a pulsing solar-powered paint job in a limited edition of 5, packaged with a chameleon skinsuit I can die happy.

Now that's out of the way, it is flatly a really ,nice bike, and if it handles like the last one, it is in many ways, the best race bike around.
733 grams is getting down close to the limit of what makes sense. That's almost exactly the same as a Hi-Mod supersix which has had years of refinements in the ultralight weight range and I had one of the new ones awhile and found the carbon truly stiff, but the wall thicknesses... at the limit.
You can make a lighter frame, but the durability curve then surely startis to drop off sharply.


----------



## Rashadabd

thumper8888 said:


> These are great points, esp this about convergence. The bike companies can no longer ignore aerodynamics. When they are touting big benefits from aero, then trying to sell you, say, an SL4, they are fighting themselves.
> Trek went ahead and made the jump early, specialized may be forced into it, and my guess would be the Venge line disappears and tarmac goes hidden cable, gets a bit more aero and boom, you're there.
> When you can cut that much drag off a bike and still build the frame at 733 grams, not being aero makes no sense.
> 
> The convergence is noticeable in the real world. I can fairly easily feel the difference between the vias and an sl4 or last generation Allez.
> With Allez Sprint sometimes I think yes, sometimes no.


There is some validity to both of your points. The ride reviews are out all over the place as well:

First ride: New Specialized Tarmac SL6 | VeloNews.com

Specialized Tarmac SL6: A Taste of Greatness - Peloton Magazine (includes US pricing)

Specialized Tarmac Project Black first ride review - BikeRadar


----------



## Rashadabd

Funkier colorways are coming apparently:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/06/3...-drops-weight-builds-better-ride/#more-164587


----------



## mile2424

there's a ton of colors shown on the website and in the link on the RBR front page....


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## Rashadabd

mile2424 said:


> there's a ton of colors shown on the website and in the link on the RBR front page....


I'm not sure what link you are referring to, but on the Specialized page, there are a handful of frameset colors, but a very limited amount of complete bike colors and no new disc models listed yet.


Edit: I found it. The RBR bike review article. 

I personally think the "Pro" is the best looking of all the framesets I have seen thus far.

Edit #2: The disc brake equipped models won't be released until "early next year" apparently.


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## mile2424

Ah ok ya. I was just meaning there is 6-7 colors shown on the website (few more shown on the RBR article but maybe womens colors?). Usually most places will allow you to order the complete bike with whatever color frame you want but ya the site is only showing the black and white right now it appears for S-WORKS level.

Disc models won't be available til next year according to Bike Rumor article...


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## Rashadabd

The entry level pricing for the new Tarmac looks like it will be $4000 for the Fact 10 Carbon model with the new Ultegra, I believe. I am sure a lot of people looking for a new all-around GC road race bike will probably compare that to the new 1000g BMC Teammachine SLR02, which you can get with 105 for roughly $2600 or $3300 or so for Ultegra, and the new 1000g Cervelo R3, that you can get for $3700 or so with Ultegra (all prices are MSRP, so you can probably do better if you try). I'm not sure what the weight is for the Fact 10 carbon Tarmac yet, but the competition looks like it could be a close one if you are focusing in on those three new race bikes. The new BMC, which is already one of my favorite new road bikes this year thus far (on paper anyway), appears to be the best looking and the best value if your primary focus isn't aerodynamics and/or possibly weight (the new Tarmac might be lighter). The new Tarmac and new R3 probably perform better in the wind tunnel, but I don't think the new Teammachine is a slouch in this department from what I have read. I can't wait to hear back from some RBR review folks once they get to take some of these bad boys out.


----------



## taodemon

One thing I'm finding interesting is that they currently show the sl5 expert at $4000 with full dura ace 9100 with exception of chain and cassette which seems like a pretty good deal if you don't need the latest/greatest frame.

I think I'm a little more disappointed that I rushed out to replace my venge when the frame broke. I could have had the best of both worlds if I didn't need a bike to ride right away. Maybe I'll try to sell my current sworks tarmac frame. :cryin:

Is next year when they redo the ViAS or is that still a couple years away?


----------



## Cni2i

I've always enjoyed riding Tarmacs. Owned the SW SL3, SL4, and currently the "SL5". Been happy with all of them. Of course, I've tried and owned other makes as well. I admit that I am somewhat of a weight weenie. I feel like I do a good amount of climbing every year (at least I think so.?...currently at 465,000' over 133 rides thus far in 2017). The geometry of the Tarmac suits me very well and I've always appreciated its very responsive/not twitchy mannerism on the road. BUT, I've always yearned for a lighter version of the Tarmac. So when this UL SL6 came out, I just couldn't resist. I know looks are subjective, but I actually really like the new sculptured / aero look of the new SL6. 

So, I put in my order today. Just for the frameset. The only thing I was somewhat bummed about was that I can't use my current eebrakes, which I have really depended on for confident braking and lightweight. The new frame set requires direct mounted brakes that requires two bolts, not one. Oh well. I'll see if I can source either DA brakes or another set of eebrakes. 

Anyways, always appreciated the great amount of knowledge on this site on all cycling matter. As always, will post pictures once the build is finished. ETA on the frame set is first week of August, at least that's what I am told. Hopefully sooner.


----------



## Merc

Cni2i said:


> I've always enjoyed riding Tarmacs. Owned the SW SL3, SL4, and currently the "SL5". Been happy with all of them. Of course, I've tried and owned other makes as well. I admit that I am somewhat of a weight weenie. I feel like I do a good amount of climbing every year (at least I think so.?...currently at 465,000' over 133 rides thus far in 2017). The geometry of the Tarmac suits me very well and I've always appreciated its very responsive/not twitchy mannerism on the road. BUT, I've always yearned for a lighter version of the Tarmac. So when this UL SL6 came out, I just couldn't resist. I know looks are subjective, but I actually really like the new sculptured / aero look of the new SL6.
> 
> So, I put in my order today. Just for the frameset. The only thing I was somewhat bummed about was that I can't use my current eebrakes, which I have really depended on for confident braking and lightweight. The new frame set requires direct mounted brakes that requires two bolts, not one. Oh well. I'll see if I can source either DA brakes or another set of eebrakes.
> 
> Anyways, always appreciated the great amount of knowledge on this site on all cycling matter. As always, will post pictures once the build is finished. ETA on the frame set is first week of August, at least that's what I am told. Hopefully sooner.


Can't wait to see it built up. 

Anyone have an idea when the new S-Works Power Meter Crankset will be available?


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## Arnoud

I was told September / October


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## 11spd

Cni2i said:


> I've always enjoyed riding Tarmacs. Owned the SW SL3, SL4, and currently the "SL5". Been happy with all of them. Of course, I've tried and owned other makes as well. I admit that I am somewhat of a weight weenie. I feel like I do a good amount of climbing every year (at least I think so.?...currently at 465,000' over 133 rides thus far in 2017). The geometry of the Tarmac suits me very well and I've always appreciated its very responsive/not twitchy mannerism on the road. BUT, I've always yearned for a lighter version of the Tarmac. So when this UL SL6 came out, I just couldn't resist. I know looks are subjective, but I actually really like the new sculptured / aero look of the new SL6.
> 
> So, I put in my order today. Just for the frameset. The only thing I was somewhat bummed about was that I can't use my current eebrakes, which I have really depended on for confident braking and lightweight. The new frame set requires direct mounted brakes that requires two bolts, not one. Oh well. I'll see if I can source either DA brakes or another set of eebrakes.
> 
> Anyways, always appreciated the great amount of knowledge on this site on all cycling matter. As always, will post pictures once the build is finished. ETA on the frame set is first week of August, at least that's what I am told. Hopefully sooner.


Congrats on the SL6 Tarmac!
Do you know what BB the SL6 has?...and what is the price for the frameset?
Thanks


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## Cni2i

11spd said:


> Congrats on the SL6 Tarmac!
> Do you know what BB the SL6 has?...and what is the price for the frameset?
> Thanks


Thanks! I believe it's the same OSBB as with the "SL5". Have you read that they changed it? The price for the Ultralight Frameset is $4250. I was only able to get 10% off that and of course, a free Pro Bike Build with new cables and housing. I was debating whether to wait a bit or not, as I still enjoy my "SL5"...but my impression was that Spesh was only going to release limited amounts of the UL Frame sets. Not sure if that's just a publicity stunt or not...but I decided to go for it.


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## Arnoud

Cool! Go for it if you want and can. 

Am thinking about the same, but not sure whether I need to wait for the disc version. But why wait....


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## taodemon

I've had my SL5 for 3 months and also thinking of picking up the new one. I love the ride on the SL5 and the new one adds the aero of my old venge while also dropping weight (which is a bonus as the aero+handling/feel combination would have been enough).

I'll need to unload my MTB first that I picked up at the end of last year so my wife doesn't kill me but I've already started planning things out which isn't good. I would like to get it custom painted but I haven't decided on that yet. This should allow me to ride my SL5 until the new frame is ready and once I've moved components over I'll try and sell the sl5 frame.


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## Cni2i

Arnoud said:


> Cool! Go for it if you want and can.
> 
> Am thinking about the same, but not sure whether I need to wait for the disc version. But why wait....
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


I didn't want disc, so easier decision for me. Let us know if you put in an order!


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## 11spd

Cni2i said:


> Thanks! I believe it's the same OSBB as with the "SL5". Have you read that they changed it? The price for the Ultralight Frameset is $4250. I was only able to get 10% off that and of course, a free Pro Bike Build with new cables and housing. I was debating whether to wait a bit or not, as I still enjoy my "SL5"...but my impression was that Spesh was only going to release limited amounts of the UL Frame sets. Not sure if that's just a publicity stunt or not...but I decided to go for it.


Cool that you have that level of discretionary income to indulge yourself already owning a great bike in the SL5. 
No...hadn't heard they had changed the BB for the new Tarmac...presume its still std. BB30....what specialized calls OSBB...which is needlessly confusing. Glad they killed their narrow version of PF30 couple of years ago now and all their Sworks bikes are BB30...though most of us would prefer faithful BSA.

Do you know how many grams are saved with the SL6 UL? The SL5 frame is already quite light.

I will be interested in your comparison when you build it up if you get a chance to weigh your current bike and new bike with same components.

Congrats again. Always exciting to build a new bike!


----------



## Cni2i

11spd said:


> Do you know how many grams are saved with the SL6 UL? The SL5 frame is already quite light.
> 
> I will be interested in your comparison when you build it up if you get a chance to weigh your current bike and new bike with same components.
> 
> Congrats again. Always exciting to build a new bike!


From what I've read, it appears that in a size 56 cm, the SL6 is approximately 200 gm lighter than the SL5. My current SWSL5 hovers right around 14 lbs with enve 2.2 Tubulars/Tune hubs (with pedals and cages) in a size 54. So I figure with the SL6 UL, I should get into the sub 14 lb area.


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## Cni2i

I am sure many of you have already seen these images, but there were some questions regarding the new SL6's bottom bracket area. Pretty clean looking, no?.

I am also very happy that the black/white UL version will not have all the "specialized' wording on the frame like the pro-ridden version.









I thought I was done with black/white, but I guess this one has pulled me back in

Stark different from my current "SL5" Illuminati Tarmac.


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## 11spd

Cni2i said:


> View attachment 319697
> View attachment 319698
> 
> 
> I am sure many of you have already seen these images, but there were some questions regarding the new SL6's bottom bracket area. Pretty clean looking, no?.
> 
> I am also very happy that the black/white UL version will not have all the "specialized' wording on the frame like the pro-ridden version.
> 
> View attachment 319699
> 
> 
> I thought I was done with black/white, but I guess this one has pulled me back in
> 
> Stark different from my current "SL5" Illuminati Tarmac.


Can you describe what kind of BB the new Tarmac has? What is that insert just outside the picture you show? Not clear by the picture what kind of BB the bike uses...at least to me.
Thanks.


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## goodboyr

Looks like that insert is just the sleeve keeping internal di2 cables away from crank. Looks like bb30 to me. 

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## Arnoud

It is on. The Specialized page with the details of the bike: OSBB.

@Cni2i The white is silver on the UL. It is white on the normal version in black.


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## Cni2i

Arnoud said:


> It is on. The Specialized page with the details of the bike: OSBB.
> 
> @Cni2i The white is silver on the UL. It is white on the normal version in black.
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


Sweet! Thanks for the clarification. I thought I saw an off white or silver SWORKS lettering in some of the images. I actually really like that distinction for the UL frame. 



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## Merc

Cni2i said:


> Thanks! I believe it's the same OSBB as with the "SL5". Have you read that they changed it? The price for the Ultralight Frameset is $4250. I was only able to get 10% off that and of course, a free Pro Bike Build with new cables and housing. I was debating whether to wait a bit or not, as I still enjoy my "SL5"...but my impression was that Spesh was only going to release limited amounts of the UL Frame sets. Not sure if that's just a publicity stunt or not...but I decided to go for it.


Can't believe you got 10% off the new frameset. The lbs that I go to won't budget. 


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## Cni2i

Merc said:


> Can't believe you got 10% off the new frameset. The lbs that I go to won't budget.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you purchased many bikes from them in the past? I purchased 4 other SWs from them in the past. 3 Tarmacs and one Venge. But yeah, I saw a concept store in Australia selling frame set for $5000! Crazy.


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## Merc

Cni2i said:


> Have you purchased many bikes from them in the past? I purchased 4 other SWs from them in the past. 3 Tarmacs and one Venge. But yeah, I saw a concept store in Australia selling frame set for $5000! Crazy.


Yeah, I've bought probably 7 (3 SW Tarmacs, 1 SW Venge, 1 SW Venge ViAS and a Moots Vamoots RSL and a Crux). through them over the past 5 years or so. The average price of those were $$$$. Guess I need to negotiate better. 


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## Cni2i

Merc said:


> Yeah, I've bought probably 7 (3 SW Tarmacs, 1 SW Venge, 1 SW Venge ViAS and a Moots Vamoots RSL and a Crux). through them over the past 5 years or so. The average price of those were $$$$. Guess I need to negotiate better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow Merc. For sure. You r such a good client there. Can't believe they won't extend a disc! Bummer. 


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## Arnoud

Specialized has a very strickt pricing mechanism in which discounts are not allowed, with the risk of loosing dealership. Your shop can, of course, give you discounts in other ways: fitting, free parts, etcetera. It's up to them... and to you 🤙


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## 1Butcher

One sure way to get a super discount is to work on the owners cars. I pay no more that 10% above cost on anything.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> One sure way to get a super discount is to work on the owners cars. I pay no more that 10% above cost on anything.


You pay for it, just in another way. 
Repairing European cars is harder than figuring out how the pyramids were built without alien intervention. :yesnod:

All said, I am a big fan of the barter system. :thumbsup:


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## dcorn

1Butcher said:


> One sure way to get a super discount is to work on the owners cars. I pay no more that 10% above cost on anything.


Or join the bike shop team. My friend owns a shop and the cost of joining his CX or Tri 'team' is buying $100+ worth of kit. So I race CX, which is fun as hell anyway, wearing his shop kit and get 20% off all Spesh stuff.


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## Arnoud

https://cyclemaniacdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_1842.jpg

Had a chance today to visit the Specialized Popupstore Düsseldorf, special store for the Tour de France start. They had 3 Tarmac 2018 in the store. Made some pictures. Yes: the Ultra Light has Silver lettering. No: there was no information on whether the bikes will be sold as they were presented there (they were all with the Powercranks. I heard in one of the videos that they will be sold without). Hope you enjoy the pictures. Bikes looked very clean and light. Less aggressive now the top tube is no longer like a bow (not sure how to explain it).


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## Arnoud

Arnoud said:


> https://cyclemaniacdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_1842.jpg
> 
> Had a chance today to visit the Specialized Popupstore Düsseldorf, special store for the Tour de France start. They had 3 Tarmac 2018 in the store. Made some pictures. Yes: the Ultra Light has Silver lettering. No: there was no information on whether the bikes will be sold as they were presented there (they were all with the Powercranks. I heard in one of the videos that they will be sold without). Bikes looked very clean and light. Less aggressive now the top tube is no longer like a bow (not sure how to explain it).
> 
> https://cyclemaniacdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_1842.jpg]
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk





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----------



## Arnoud

Hmmm, not allowed to link to my blog with the pictures. Again, maybe this helps?

cyclemaniacdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_1842.jpg


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## Cni2i

Arnoud said:


> Hmmm, not allowed to link to my blog with the pictures. Again, maybe this helps?
> 
> cyclemaniacdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/img_1842.jpg
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


Bummer. Love to see the pictures! Glad to know that you confirmed the silver lettering. Just want to make sure I get the actual UL version. Lol. 


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## Arnoud

cyclemaniacdotcom.wordpress.com/


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## Arnoud

Arnoud said:


> cyclemaniacdotcom.wordpress.com/
> 
> Copy this and you get my bog where you can choose the post on the Tarmac.,
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk





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## Jester45

I see that the brakes are direct mount. I'm thinking about getting the frameset and wondering which brakes to put on it. Any thoughts? Was thinking about putting SRAM Red groupset on but don't think they have a direct mount brake? Also saw that Specialized are partnering with EE Cycleworks for their brakes but the pricing on these is nosebleed stuff.


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## Cni2i

Jester45 said:


> I see that the brakes are direct mount. I'm thinking about getting the frameset and wondering which brakes to put on it. Any thoughts? Was thinking about putting SRAM Red groupset on but don't think they have a direct mount brake? Also saw that Specialized are partnering with EE Cycleworks for their brakes but the pricing on these is nosebleed stuff.


Shimano Dura Ace direct mount. Great review.










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## spdntrxi

EE direct mount


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## Jester45

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback. The DA seemed the way to go, hard to justify the EE ones at the much higher price.


----------



## Cni2i

Jester45 said:


> Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback. The DA seemed the way to go, hard to justify the EE ones at the much higher price.


Yes. I am torn. Have ee brakes on my current two bikes but single bolt. UL frame on order and debating which way to go too. But hard to pass up on the DA as they seem to perform really well and much less $$$ than ee. And I am already running DA group set. 


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## Horze

mile2424 said:


> Not just the paint, the proportions look way different. Dan Martin's is probably a 52 or something and just looks squished and un-proportional to me. Of course the features look the same, but the junctions and tube sizes seem to flow better to me on the Sagan.


The thing holding DM's bike back are the wheels. So his bike should have smaller wheels right?
LMAO


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## Arnoud

Today I had the chance to ride the SL 6 SW with DA at the Specialized test days in at Specialized Europe. To keep it short and simple: what a bike! Very impressed about the power output and the ease of cornering. Love my Sl4, liked my Sl5 (less tan the 4, by the way), but this felt in a league of its own. Even when the bike was a bit short and high (wanted to have the bar lower and stem 2cm longer) I felt very much at home on the bike. Bike came with the new saddle. 

Pictures and story (in Dutch...) will follow on my blog cyclemaniacdotcom.wordpress.com/

Als with some other pictures of bikes and stuff of today.


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## 11spd

Any thoughts on why you may like your SL5 less than your SL4?
Isn't the SL5 supposed to better match ride and handling to frame size?
I thought the SL5 was a step up from the SL4?


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## Arnoud

I ride a 54cm. Not so much ride first difference there. The Sl4 somehow feels better out of the saddle. Standing up, making speed up a small climb, pushing the bars from left to right, getting maximum power out of it. Never any proof on wattage, best times, or whatever. Just a feeling. I have used the same bars and wheels so that should not make a difference. I never have any need of a softer bike or more comfortable bike, also with 5+ hours rides.


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## 11spd

I wonder how many thousands of dollars Specialized threw out the window working with McLaren on "rider first engineering" in development of the Tarmac SL5 according to your anecdotal report?...lol

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/rider-first-engineered



Arnoud said:


> I ride a 54cm. Not so much ride first difference there. The Sl4 somehow feels better out of the saddle. Standing up, making speed up a small climb, pushing the bars from left to right, getting maximum power out of it. Never any proof on wattage, best times, or whatever. Just a feeling. I have used the same bars and wheels so that should not make a difference. I never have any need of a softer bike or more comfortable bike, also with 5+ hours rides.
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


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## Arnoud

For bigger and smaller sizes it may very well work. For the "average" sizes 54 and 56 the differences were said to be smaller, is as I understand and it work.


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## 1Butcher

That's exactly what I was thinking. 

Partnering up with anyone may be a good deal. You never know until you do it. McLaren is not a cheap company and they have a proven track record of making winning carbon products. If I was the CEO, I certainly would not give away all those R&D dollars in the past. We'll never know if it was good money spent or not.


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## 11spd

1Butcher said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> Partnering up with anyone may be a good deal. You never know until you do it. McLaren is not a cheap company and they have a proven track record of making winning carbon products. If I was the CEO, I certainly would not give away all those R&D dollars in the past. We'll never know if it was good money spent or not.


Yes...perhaps limited value added if you believe the single review here that a SL4 is a better feeling bike than SL5...but Specialized gets some marketing out of the slogan 'rider first engineering' and of course using the racing name McClaren.

You want completely cynical? McClaren did almost nothing but lend their name for some advertising dollars. So far at least one rider here doesn't think the SL5 is an improvement over the SL4. What is somewhat surprising is this rider believes its a step back.


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## 11spd

Arnoud said:


> For bigger and smaller sizes it may very well work. For the "average" sizes 54 and 56 the differences were said to be smaller, is as I understand and it work.
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


True, but one wouldn't think the SL5 to be a step backward in any size.


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## Arnoud

But on the other hand the SL6, which is rider first as well, a lot better...


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## taodemon

I've only been on a 9r SL4 vs the 11R on my SL5 and the SL5 feels more responsive to me but that isn't exactly a direct comparison due to different carbon and slightly different spec on the bike. Size 54 SL4, vs 56 SL5 too. My anecdotal 2c.


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## 11spd

Arnoud said:


> But on the other hand the SL6, which is rider first as well, a lot better...
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


How do you know?


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## Arnoud

This was my first impression on the SL6. Very responsive bike. What I like in a bike is what I got, from the first meter I was on it. So "I liked it a lot better.."


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## Devastazione

11spd said:


> Any thoughts on why you may like your SL5 less than your SL4?
> Isn't the SL5 supposed to better match ride and handling to frame size?
> I thought the SL5 was a step up from the SL4?


The Sl5 Tarmac it's been my welcome to the Sworks world bike and it's been a complete disappointment. To make it short : it's been a shi.t of a bike.
People say they loved the much more stiff and maybe rough SL4...


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## Wetworks

Devastazione said:


> The Sl5 Tarmac it's been my welcome to the Sworks world bike and it's been a complete disappointment. To make it short : it's been a shi.t of a bike.
> People say they loved the much more stiff and maybe rough SL4...


Same as you, this was my welcome to the SW world, but I couldn't be happier with mine.


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## taodemon

Devastazione said:


> The Sl5 Tarmac it's been my welcome to the Sworks world bike and it's been a complete disappointment. To make it short : it's been a shi.t of a bike.
> People say they loved the much more stiff and maybe rough SL4...


What are your issues with the SL5? Mine has been great, my first S Works frame as well. My old bike was a venge, though I have spent a good amount of time on my dad's sl4 non sworks tarmac. I've put 3290 miles on it since april. I'm only considering getting the new one because it supposedly combines everything I love about the SL5 and what I loved about my old venge with a bonus of shedding weight.


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## Devastazione

Wetworks said:


> Same as you, this was my welcome to the SW world, but I couldn't be happier with mine.


This is what I've wrote about the bike 2 years ago. I've moved over to a Giant TCR now and it's a night and day difference. Of course the comparison should be between the new TCR and the SL6 to be more "honest" since they're both latest generation frames.
I do like the SL6 a lot and planning to go back to Specialized in the future,but it will take some serious browsing and reading reviews online. Wich is quite difficult because even the most unbiased tester gives Specialized tons of thumbs up even when the bike is still in the box. Power of marketing that is. Lame.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/9-months-into-ownership-2015-tarmac-sworks-fails-impress-me-347399.html


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## Arnoud

This was my first impression on the SL6. Very responsive bike. What I like in a bike is what I got, from the first meter I was on it. So "I liked it a lot better.."


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## Cni2i

Devastazione said:


> The Sl5 Tarmac it's been my welcome to the Sworks world bike and it's been a complete disappointment. To make it short : it's been a shi.t of a bike.
> People say they loved the much more stiff and maybe rough SL4...


Just curious as to why you say that the SWSL5 had been a "shi.t of a bike" ?

I have owned and put in many miles on the SWSL3,4 and 5 tarmac. Tried the zero.7 and cdale hi-mod and Canyon CF SLX also, but went back to the Tarmac. Perfect geometry for me and very well balanced IMO. The Canyon was pretty damn nice however. 

I am sure there are other bikes in the Tarmac's class that are great as well (you mentioned Giant TCR) but it's hard for me to believe that the SWSL5 was "shi.t". Hence curious as to why you thought so. 

Thanks. 


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## Devastazione

Cni2i said:


> Just curious as to why you say that the SWSL5 had been a "shi.t of a bike" ?
> 
> I have owned and put in many miles on the SWSL3,4 and 5 tarmac. Tried the zero.7 and cdale hi-mod and Canyon CF SLX also, but went back to the Tarmac. Perfect geometry for me and very well balanced IMO. The Canyon was pretty damn nice however.
> 
> I am sure there are other bikes in the Tarmac's class that are great as well (you mentioned Giant TCR) but it's hard for me to believe that the SWSL5 was "shi.t". Hence curious as to why you thought so.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do agree with the geometry : my body loves ALL Specialized bikes,they seems to be cut for my body,that is just amazing. I feel even much more comfortable on the TCR but' I've had to buy another stem to get there and experiment a lot with spacers, Specialized bikes you just need to set the saddle and they feel like a couch.

I've posted a link in my former post where 2 years ago I've tried to explain what I've felt wrong with the SL5.
To make it short : flexy at the back,very light at the front. Very nice at going at speed both downhill or on a flat road but absolutely miserable in climbing and technical road. All in all the average Specialized bike : a very comfortable,easy and sure footed bike that showed it's shortcomings if pushed hard. Was is worth it a 7200 Euro price tag over my former 3000 Euro '12 Roubaix ? No,not by a long shot.


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## taodemon

From reading that thread it seemed like fit issues more than anything. It didn't sound like your weight was distributed correctly and you never did the weight test with the scale. I'm not some super sprinter or climber but I can get the watts pretty high and I've never noticed flex in the frame on climbs or hard sprints. 

I'm 6ft, 180ish at the start of the season, down to 165 now. Same 56 size frame and probably running more flexy wheels than the rovals. The bike is noticeably stiffer than the 10r venge I had before (all same components) and while not as drastic as the venge still more nimble and responsive than my dad's 54" 9r sl4 I rode with my wheels until the sworks frame arrived after a cracked my venge frame. 

That or you just couldn't get used to the steering/handling characteristics of the tarmac. I would imagine it would be a lot more responsive (probably what you call light) than the roubaix. It is more than the venge too but for me this is a characteristic I ended up liking a lot. The bike feels more alive compared to the venge, and makes the riding a lot of fun. I've never felt unsafe as a result and if anything on hard sprint efforts up short hills I've had the back of the bike lighten up more than the front, which is more an issue of weight distribution than anything else (leaning too far forward on a steep hill in my case). I've never had the front want to "lift" up on any type of terrain or effort.


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## Wetworks

Devastazione said:


> This is what I've wrote about the bike 2 years ago. I've moved over to a Giant TCR now and it's a night and day difference. Of course the comparison should be between the new TCR and the SL6 to be more "honest" since they're both latest generation frames.
> I do like the SL6 a lot and planning to go back to Specialized in the future,but it will take some serious browsing and reading reviews online. Wich is quite difficult because even the most unbiased tester gives Specialized tons of thumbs up even when the bike is still in the box. Power of marketing that is. Lame.
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/9-months-into-ownership-2015-tarmac-sworks-fails-impress-me-347399.html


Thanks for the link. I read through what you wrote. So far, the only thing I agree with is just how surprisingly comfortable the bike is for a "race" bike. I think I kind of understand your description about the light feeling of the front end, but I attribute that to responsiveness. I think my initial word for it was "twitchiness."

As for flex, never seen anything like that. The BB is enormous and the chainstay is pretty beefy. I stood up for a KOM sprint yesterday, laid down some serious watts over 400m at 205 pounds; got the KOM and didn't feel any difference in responsiveness compared to my Venge Vias. JMO, yours is yours.

This all said, I really am intrigued to try out the new SL6.


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## taodemon

Wetworks said:


> This all said, I really am intrigued to try out the new SL6.


The idea of if being as stiff and responsive as the current sl5 plus the aero the old venge while shedding weight has me really interested. I only wish I had local bike stores that would stock them for test rides.


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## Cni2i

Does anyone know approximately what is the what difference between the standard SWSL6 Tarmac vs its ULTRAlight version? I see the 733 gm (56 cm) quoted in many places. I assumed that was for the standard SL6. Just curious. Thank you.


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## ceugene

Cni2i said:


> Does anyone know approximately what is the what difference between the standard SWSL6 Tarmac vs its ULTRAlight version? I see the 733 gm (56 cm) quoted in many places. I assumed that was for the standard SL6. Just curious. Thank you.


733g is the advertised weight of a 56cm Ultralight. The few that I've seen have actually come in closer to 780-800g. The non-Ultralights are coming in around 880-900g.


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## Cni2i

ceugene said:


> 733g is the advertised weight of a 56cm Ultralight. The few that I've seen have actually come in closer to 780-800g. The non-Ultralights are coming in around 880-900g.


Thank you for that. Odd b/c I thought a couple of reviews said the SL6 in 56 cm was 733g and went on to say that the UL version shaves off a bit more weight from that due to the paint scheme...or lack there of. But I figured they usually quite lower weights than actual. 


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## Maverick78y

Hi guys,

Greetings from Italy ...
I have one technical question, hope you can help me...

I see the new tarmac ultralight mounts the EW-RS 910 Di2 junction in the handlebar.

I just had a look on the spe website and it seems the s-works carbon shallow handlebar hasn't any hole for the Di2 cabling ...

How is it possible then to install this junction like in the ultralight?

Does the new tarmac have a dedicated version of the bend?

Thanks in advance for your support!!


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## Cni2i

Just need direct mounted brakes. DA of course are great performing brakes and relatively not too $ compared with ee brakes. But getting a very light frame and using heavier brakes than what I currently use (Std ee brakes) somewhat negates the weight savings of the UL frame, no? 


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## Devastazione

Maverick78y said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Greetings from Italy ...
> I have one technical question, hope you can help me...
> 
> I see the new tarmac ultralight mounts the EW-RS 910 Di2 junction in the handlebar.
> 
> I just had a look on the spe website and it seems the s-works carbon shallow handlebar hasn't any hole for the Di2 cabling ...
> 
> How is it possible then to install this junction like in the ultralight?
> 
> Does the new tarmac have a dedicated version of the bend?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your support!!


Sul sito specialized è impossibile vederlo,il buco è dietro in corrispondenza dell’attacco manubrio. Chiedi al tuo rivenditore e te lo dovrebbe confermare.


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## aqualelaki

Cni2i said:


> Just need direct mounted brakes. DA of course are great performing brakes and relatively not too $ compared with ee brakes. But getting a very light frame and using heavier brakes than what I currently use (Std ee brakes) somewhat negates the weight savings of the UL frame, no?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


810 for UL frame. That's quite heavy. Didn't you mention earlier 733 for size 56? Or is that without seatpost?


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## Cni2i

Yes. 733 I️ believe is just the frame. No fork. No seatpost. 


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## aqualelaki

Cni2i said:


> Yes. 733 I️ believe is just the frame. No fork. No seatpost.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Awesome. What's the plan for the build? Post the pictures when you are done with it


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## ceugene

That seatpost probably weighs 150g or more, so are you saying your frame comes in dramatically under 733g?


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## Cni2i

ceugene said:


> That seatpost probably weighs 150g or more, so are you saying your frame comes in dramatically under 733g?


Not sure how much the post weighs. The 733 number stated is from Specialized for a 56 cm frame. The one pictured is a 54 cm. You see the number. Not sure what you want me to say?


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## spdntrxi

810g with the post in size 54?
I’m suddenly interested ..I would be getting size 52....so even less g


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## sund

Maverick78y said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Greetings from Italy ...
> I have one technical question, hope you can help me...
> 
> I see the new tarmac ultralight mounts the EW-RS 910 Di2 junction in the handlebar.
> 
> I just had a look on the spe website and it seems the s-works carbon shallow handlebar hasn't any hole for the Di2 cabling ...
> 
> How is it possible then to install this junction like in the ultralight?
> 
> Does the new tarmac have a dedicated version of the bend?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your support!!


My Tarmac came with this handlebar and it has holes near the end of the bar end to run into the junction box. The wires run outside of the bar up the bend and to the shifter.


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