# Team Saxo Bank and the Pro Tour



## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

With the loss of Conti's points, is Saxo still qualified to be Pro Tour?


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

I don't think they'll take them out of the WorldTour now... but it might be their last year. Even if Contador comes back and wins the Vuelta, his points wont count for the team for two years (same situation with Valverde as was discussed in the press lately). So I guess Bjarne will have to do his annual sponsor search (or convincing his current sponsors to stay) but also hunt for riders just for their points...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> I don't think they'll take them out of the WorldTour now... but it might be their last year. Even if Contador comes back and wins the Vuelta, his points wont count for the team for two years (same situation with Valverde as was discussed in the press lately). So I guess Bjarne will have to do his annual sponsor search (or convincing his current sponsors to stay) but also hunt for riders just for their points...


and having sponsorship issues as it is that is going to be an uphill battle. Without Contador there's very little left. Nuyens might do something in the spring classic but other than that Chris Anker might be a shot of a top 10 in the tour. Maybe we will see them in every single break for the rest of the season.


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## steve_e_f (Sep 8, 2003)

Definitely a bad situation for Saxo, and for all cycling teams looking for sponsors.


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## mmoose (Apr 2, 2004)

I see this as one of the reasons that the case was dragged out so long. When this first broke, Riis was in some trouble then...

If AC storms thru the '12 Vuela, the sponsors will show up. They'll want their piece of the '13 TdF. 

But yea, good question on the 'qualify for the pro tour' thing, that is a sticky technical point. But I won't be surprised when the slippery UCI finds a way to let them in, And the ASO already let him ride the '11 Tour.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

LostViking said:


> With the loss of Conti's points, is Saxo still qualified to be Pro Tour?


The Pro Tour teams are set for the year. You can score no points or even go negative during the year, and not lose your status. Next year is a different story.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

mmoose said:


> I see this as one of the reasons that the case was dragged out so long. When this first broke, Riis was in some trouble then...
> 
> If AC storms thru the '12 Vuela, the sponsors will show up. They'll want their piece of the '13 TdF.
> 
> But yea, good question on the 'qualify for the pro tour' thing, that is a sticky technical point. But I won't be surprised when the slippery UCI finds a way to let them in, And the ASO already let him ride the '11 Tour.


getting a sponsor after the vuelta does not help much. most contracts are agreed upon at that time and you can just run after the left overs.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

Well: UCI Licence Commission To Decide Saxo Bank's WorldTour Fate | Cyclingnews.com


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## gamara (May 20, 2002)

den bakker said:


> getting a sponsor after the vuelta does not help much. most contracts are agreed upon at that time and you can just run after the left overs.


Agreed, just look a Geox.


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## sxr-racer (Dec 22, 2007)

Just read that they said that his suspension will be backdated. Eligible to race Aug 6 or around that time.


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## jpick915 (May 7, 2006)

Looks as though Riis will be paying for his steadfast support of Contador throughout this debacle. Unfortunate, but I don't believe he really had any other options following the departure of Andy, Frank, Fabian et al. following the 2010 season.


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## shomyoface (Nov 24, 2007)

Why haven't Saxo Bank fired Bertie for doping, most teams do immediately after a positive/ban.....oh yeah, I forgot, Riis was a doper.....silly me.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

*Goodbye Saxo.*

Hidden in a Cyclingnews.com article on a new World Tour race being added to the calendar was this little footnote:

"During its two-day gathering in Geneva, the UCI also confirmed that it will ask the Licence Commission to rule on whether Saxo Bank should retain its place in the WorldTour following the suspension of Alberto Contador. “If the points obtained by Alberto Contador, representing approximately 68% of the Saxo Bank-Sungard team's total points, are disregarded, his team would no longer be considered to fulfil the sporting criterion required for the UCI WorldTour,” read the UCI statement."

Season-ending Tour Of Hangzhou Added To WorldTour Calendar | Cyclingnews.com


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

shomyoface said:


> Why haven't Saxo Bank fired Bertie for doping, most teams do immediately after a positive/ban.....oh yeah, I forgot, Riis was a doper.....silly me.


Saxo suspended Alberto when they received the notice of his positive (after the Tour, after Alberto was notified and asked by the UCI to shut up about it and after the result was leaked)... it didn't change much as Contador had already ended his season. They ended his suspension when the Spanish federation ruled about the issue and declared him innocent. He was free to race then and with an appeal, as long as the appeal process is not decided, the original ruling is what's applicable. Riis is a shady man but they weren't doing anything other teams wouldn't have done IMO.

I still find it odd that nobody has looked into why exactly did the UCI tried to cover it up. Did Alberto made a 'donation' to the UCI?


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## CoLiKe20 (Jan 30, 2006)

so sad... there are now 2 disgraced TdF champions.
A few of us rode with AC last year in Marin. Still a special memory but a little sad that this has happened.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

shomyoface said:


> Why haven't Saxo Bank fired Bertie for doping, most teams do immediately after a positive/ban.....oh yeah, I forgot, Riis was a doper.....silly me.


They have.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

UCI wants to assure that Saxo can't ride the Veulta when Conti returns - bounceing them out of the Pro Tour would achieve this. If Saxo then re-hires Conti after his ban is over, they probably will not be able to ride in the Spanish grand tour.

McQuaid and Co. are not vindictive right?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

LostViking said:


> UCI wants to assure that Saxo can't ride the Veulta when Conti returns - bounceing them out of the Pro Tour would achieve this. If Saxo then re-hires Conti after his ban is over, they probably will not be able to ride in the Spanish grand tour.
> 
> McQuaid and Co. are not vindictive right?


without contador the team is not much better than the famous footon squad that really tore it up some years ago. You can say it's unfair to punish the team for contadors fate but the team has done absolutely nothing as contingency measures since the ruling was appealed a year ago. what is the team bringing to the giro for example? majka as captain. He is almost certain to surprise in a positive way. The tour? Chris Anker Soerensen? what a ticket seller. Nueyens for the Ronde, how about all the other classics? The one week stage races?


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

LostViking said:


> UCI wants to assure that Saxo can't ride the Veulta when Conti returns - bounceing them out of the Pro Tour would achieve this. If Saxo then re-hires Conti after his ban is over, they probably will not be able to ride in the Spanish grand tour.
> 
> McQuaid and Co. are not vindictive right?


Seriously? I struggle with the UCI wanting to bounce Saxo. I understand your point but there is a much bigger picture.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

Well, the orginal UCI plan was for Contador to keep things quiet, so I doubt they're out to get him. If anything the UCI is probably trying to figure out a way to get his ban reduced further. 

As far as Saxo goes, It seems to me there aren't alot of well funded teams around these days, so why would the UCI want to chase away Saxo? Makes no sense, even from just a dollars and cents perspective.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

UCI initiated this move at the License Commission - if they had not wanted to "risk" Saxo's exsclusion, why start the ball rolling? They could have chosen to do nothing. I think it's fairly obvious that the UCI wants Saxo demoted.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

LostViking said:


> UCI initiated this move at the License Commission - if they had not wanted to "risk" Saxo's exsclusion, why start the ball rolling? They could have chosen to do nothing. I think it's fairly obvious that the UCI wants Saxo demoted.


I have no clue what will happen but in the world of politics, and this is hugely political, anything can happen behind closed doors. I think Saxo will manage a way into Vuelta.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Rokh On said:


> I have no clue what will happen but in the world of politics, and this is hugely political, anything can happen behind closed doors. I think Saxo will manage a way into Vuelta.


I don't think the start list for the Vuelta has been finalized. The organizers get non-Pro Tour "wildcard' selections.

You better believe that even if Saxo gets demoted to Pro Continental and Contador is "re-hired", they'll get an invite to the Vuelta.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

And if the UCI makes it "clear" that they would not look kindly on a Saxo invite?


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

LostViking said:


> And if the UCI makes it "clear" that they would not look kindly on a Saxo invite?


Since ASO nows owns a large share of the Vuelta we'd have another pissing match.


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

LostViking said:


> And if the UCI makes it "clear" that they would not look kindly on a Saxo invite?


Like the Vuelta would keep Contador out of The Premiere Spanish race :idea:


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## velominati (Nov 23, 2011)

At the end of the day, who cares? Even if AC does win the Vuelta, none of the points that he possibly generates are useable by Saxo for two years as a convicted returning doper, whether he is actually guilty or not.

So they have to look at other riders to generate points to keep them in the pro tour.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2012)

*So is there any update after the hearing?*

I have not been able to find online any update of how the hearing with the Licence Comission. Any news? Timelines?

_For their part, the Saxo Bank team is putting together its case to present before the Licence Commission. “I can confirm that we have been summoned to a hearing on February 27 and we’re obviously preparing fully for that,” Saxo Bank press officer Anders Damgaard said to sporten.dk.
_


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

santos_pons said:


> I have not been able to find online any update of how the hearing with the Licence Comission. Any news? Timelines?
> 
> _For their part, the Saxo Bank team is putting together its case to present before the Licence Commission. “I can confirm that we have been summoned to a hearing on February 27 and we’re obviously preparing fully for that,” Saxo Bank press officer Anders Damgaard said to sporten.dk.
> _


No word yet - as usual, it seems to take an eternity for discissions to be made in cycling.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

LostViking said:


> No word yet - as usual, it seems to take an eternity for discissions to be made in cycling.


which is probably at least as good as a fast decision for saxo bank. They have nothing to win compared to now. (unless they don't feel they belong in some world tour races of course).


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Stay of Execution

Saxo will remain "World Tour" for the rest of the 2012 season according to the UCI's Licensing Committee.

Of course this is just a stay of execution as, unless something amazing happens, Saxo is unlikely to have enough points to retain that status in 2013 - unless they sign a rider or two with buko points.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

LostViking said:


> Stay of Execution
> 
> Saxo will remain "World Tour" for the rest of the 2012 season according to the UCI's Licensing Committee.
> 
> Of course this is just a stay of execution as, unless something amazing happens, Saxo is unlikely to have enough points to retain that status in 2013 - unless they sign a rider or two with buko points.



So Clentador will sign with another team then?


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

^^^^^

Yep


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I thought after a doping ban*

you couldn't sign with a level 1 team


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> you couldn't sign with a level 1 team


Liquigas supposedly broke that "gentleman's agreement" when they signed Basso.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

atpjunkie said:


> you couldn't sign with a level 1 team


valverde? 
does not matter though. A cont. pro tour team with contador would get any invitation he'd care about.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

Why would anyone get the idea that the UCI doesn't want Contador racing for a top level Pro Tour team? Contador is a made man in the system. 

After the TDF, he'll rejoin his friends at Saxo rested, win the Vuelta and half a dozen other big late season races. UCI team points won't be a problem.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

AdamM said:


> After the TDF, he'll rejoin his friends at Saxo rested, win the Vuelta and half a dozen other big late season races. UCI team points won't be a problem.


Under current rules, a rider coming off a suspension of two years or more can't earn UCI points for two years after his return. There's some question though whether this is allowable under the WADA code.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

AdamM said:


> Why would anyone get the idea that the UCI doesn't want Contador racing for a top level Pro Tour team? Contador is a made man in the system.
> 
> After the TDF, he'll rejoin his friends at Saxo rested, win the Vuelta and half a dozen other big late season races. UCI team points won't be a problem.


Reports said a while back he won't go back to Saxo. Didn't like Riis's tyrannical method of running the team.

Linked to Movistar though...that would be amusing.


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

> Reports said a while back he won't go back to Saxo. Didn't like Riis's tyrannical method of running the team.
> 
> Linked to Movistar though...that would be amusing.


Yea, but I think that was probably all bs. I can't see him going with an all Spanish team if he wants to win the TDF again. Too risky if the organizers choose the wrong sort of route. 

Saxo has money and his three best friends. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

AdamM said:


> Yea, but I think that was probably all bs. I can't see him going with an all Spanish team if he wants to win the TDF again. Too risky if the organizers choose the wrong sort of route.
> 
> Saxo has money and his three best friends. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.


Wrong sort of route? What would be the wrong route for a guy with climbing and TT abilities like he has? 

I don't think the country of origin of the team has much to do with it. And I think his 3 amigos' contracts are up at the end of this year? I could be wrong on that.

Either way, he won't be earning UCI points, so it doesn't matter what he wins.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

asgelle said:


> Under current rules, a rider coming off a suspension of two years or more can't earn UCI points for two years after his return. There's some question though whether this is allowable under the WADA code.


Yet another grey area for me. I readily admit I do not understand the recently ratified crap regarding points. I know some believe in Valverde's case the new rules don't apply because they were not retroactive. Valverde is ranked 3rd in the world with 167 points. 

If a team cannot earn points where is the incentive for any suspended rider to be signed by any team? I don't buy into a returning rider would be encouraged to join a lower ranked team to "atone" for their misdeeds. 

Strictly my intereptation, but I think teams do earn points. It's the sporting value points that come into question.

Please, feel free to point out the errors of my intereptation.


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

Rokh On said:


> Strictly my intereptation, but I think teams do earn points. It's the sporting value points that come into question.


In interviews, Jonathan Vaughters has been clear that the teams do not earn points when a rider returns from suspension.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

It's really tragic that Saxo Bank is in so much trouble. Such a storied history! Back when they were called The Saxon Bank, they helped finance the invasion of England by Germanic Tribes


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

Mapei said:


> It's really tragic that Saxo Bank is in so much trouble. Such a storied history! Back when they were called The Saxon Bank, they helped finance the invasion of England by Germanic Tribes


yes, and I hear they had a decisive influence on the initial development of Jazz


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

cda 455 said:


> So Clentador will sign with another team then?


Looks like Movistar is working on a deal.

But even if Saxo got him back - his points are useless - Saxo needs to sign someone else who can supply some points if they are going to have a prayer at a World Tour 2013 ranking and I have problems seeing how that will happen this far into the season.


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

asgelle said:


> In interviews, Jonathan Vaughters has been clear that the teams do not earn points when a rider returns from suspension.


Yep, I have seen Mr. Proxy's statements but that just adds to the confusion for me.

So let's use my intereptation and Valverde as an example. Let's say I'm wrong about Valverde and he is subject to the new rule in place. Well right now team Movistar world standing points total include Valverde's.

1) rider is earning points
2) Movistar is earning points in current season world standings
3) Movistar is not affect until the UCI uses "sporting value points" to determine the 2013 automatic bid 

Movistar may not accumulate enough points for the automatic bid but it won't stop events from offering them a wildcard


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Salsa_Lover said:


> yes, and I hear they had a decisive influence on the initial development of Jazz


Very "phone"-y.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

I stand corrected - Saxo will be at the Veulta and, it seems, Conti will be riding with them. I bow to the greater knowledge of others.

However, there is no doubt that a returning rider like Conti cannot earn points for his team for two years (<- yet another stupid rule - either they have served thier suspension or they haven't - might as well impose a four-year ban and be done with it!). Valverde missed the cut-off for this rule and is thus earning tons of points for his team in the same season Conti will not be allowed to earn any for his team.

According to an article in Cyclingnews.com, Riis and Saxo Bank (currently securly in the basement of UCI Pro Tour team rankings) intend to legally challenge this rule.

Riis Willing To Sign Riders To Keep Saxo Bank In WorldTour | Cyclingnews.com


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

LostViking said:


> Valverde missed the cut-off for this rule and is thus earning tons of points for his team in the same season Conti will not be allowed to earn any for his team.


Really? I thought Valverde was falling into the no points rule...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> Really? I thought Valverde was falling into the no points rule...


why not look it up? he is written as having 167 points.


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## Dan Gerous (Mar 28, 2005)

den bakker said:


> why not look it up? he is written as having 167 points.


He earns points for himself, but I thought the rule was that his team could not use those points for the World Tour selection process...


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> He earns points for himself, but I thought the rule was that his team could not use those points for the World Tour selection process...


there's also a team standing on the pro tour web page :thumbsup:


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## Rokh On (Oct 30, 2011)

Dan Gerous said:


> Really? I thought Valverde was falling into the no points rule...


Since it appears you may have missed the discussion, just a few response above yours, let's recap:

Right now team Movistar world standing points total include Valverde's.

1) rider is earning points
2) Movistar is earning points in current season world standings
3) Movistar is not affect until the UCI uses "sporting value points" to determine the 2013 automatic bid 

Movistar may not accumulate enough points for the automatic bid but it won't stop events from offering them a wildcard


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## AdamM (Jul 9, 2008)

It's been clear from the start that Contador has special status. Similar to a well known former rider. He's a made man. If he needs to be earning points for the team later this year when he wins the Vuelta and a half dozen other races, that will happen.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Seems Mr. Riis is back to his wheeling-and-dealing ways:

Fuglsang And Breschel To Saxo Bank In 2013? | Cyclingnews.com

And some people are realizing where thier best interests may be served.
Could Saxo be on the road to reconstruction as one of the top tier teams?


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