# Best clincher wheels for under $1000?



## leonrice (Jun 16, 2006)

I have a 2008 Trek Madone 5.2. Love the bike, but looking to upgrade the wheels. The current wheels are Bontrager Race Lites. They are decent, but I would like an upgrade. I consider myself a avid rider. I do 2-3 centuries a year and many smaller charity rides. I usually put 100-200 miles a week on my bike.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

If you want then pretty light: Tune hubs, Niobium 27 or 30mm rims, CX-Rays... and money left over. 1350-1400g.

If you aren't a weight weenie, you can use White Industries or DT hubs and have a lot of money left over. 1430-1500g.


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## KeeponTrekkin (Aug 29, 2002)

*What you have isn't so bad...*

and (although you did not state your weight), with your riding habits which aren't that dissimilar from mine, I think you should value reliability over fashion, aero or weight. There are lots of light hubs, rims, spokes & nipples and lots of ways to put them into servicable hand built wheels. You'll get great performance out of a D/A Open Pro build and it will last and last and last (and cost a lot less than $1,000.)

If you want to spend $1,000 and get a highly regarded wheelset, consider the latest Shimano Road Tubeless. The reviewer on the other RBR (roadbikerider.com) loved them.


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## leonrice (Jun 16, 2006)

Sorry, I'm 5'8 and 165 lbs. I'm not overly concerned about the weight of the wheels. I would rather have a wheel that can stand everyday wear and tear and still be reliable.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Are your current wheels not reliable? What are you really after here? If you want reliable, you can get that for a lot less than $1000...


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

leonrice said:


> Sorry, I'm 5'8 and 165 lbs. I'm not overly concerned about the weight of the wheels. I would rather have a wheel that can stand everyday wear and tear and still be reliable.


For your riding - OP/DuraAce/CX-Ray/32h/x3 for less than half the price you mentioned.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

For a good all-round reliable set of wheels I'd get Niobium 27mm rims on Dura-Ace or White Ind. hubs, CX-ray spokes.

There's a lot of custom builders who'll make a good set. Troy @ Ligero wheel works is one. The DA hubs are probably the ultimate in reliability but the White Ind. hubs are also good and a bit lighter. They roll almost as well as the DAs too.

I am not much of a fan of shallow rims like Open Pros any more. I have had one crack at the spoke hole and the replacement's got a loose piece at the joint that makes noise.
The shallow aero rims like the 27mm Niobium are stiffer. That's good especially for the rear wheel which doesn't have sufficient spoke bracing angle for lateral loads. It keeps the wheel from flexing so much which keeps the spokes from coming loose quite as easily. The shallow aero rims aren't much heavier than the Open Pros either... maybe 20-30g.

The cost should be way way under $1k.

BTW, the Bontrager Race Lites are supposed to be pretty good. What's wrong with them that you'd like to fix?


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## The Human G-Nome (Aug 26, 2002)

leonrice said:


> I have a 2008 Trek Madone 5.2. Love the bike, but looking to upgrade the wheels. The current wheels are Bontrager Race Lites. They are decent, but I would like an upgrade. I consider myself a avid rider. I do 2-3 centuries a year and many smaller charity rides. I usually put 100-200 miles a week on my bike.
> 
> Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!


If it were me I'd buy Campy Eurus wheels. They are truly bombproof and have an amazing ride. Second to that, my vote is for my team's sponsor, Williams Wheels, not because they are my sponsor, but because they truly are fantastic all-around wheels. Plus, you'll only be paying 500.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Ultegra 10 with Open Pro CD.
32 by 32 or 28 by 32
If you get them built right, they will last and last.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

agree with others... pls tell us what u don't like about ur current wheels so we can better advise.... there is just too much to choose from !


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## jmess (Aug 24, 2006)

Rolf Vigor RS are very tough and reliable wheels. At your weight the standard Vigor should work.


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## wmayes (Aug 8, 2007)

*Mavic Ksyrium ES*

_I am 5-11, 195 pounds and use Mavic ES's. Light, bulletproof and they look good, too! Michelin Pro3 Race tires round it out nicely._


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

leonrice said:


> Sorry, I'm 5'8 and 165 lbs. I'm not overly concerned about the weight of the wheels. I would rather have a wheel that can stand everyday wear and tear and still be reliable.


I'd just stick to what you have if you aren't concerned about the weight. As far as I know the Racelites still use DT-Swiss hubs so you have a good wheelset already. I've been running race-x-lites for almost 5 years and they've been great as far as the hubs are concerned. I had a small crack in the rim that was common in the 03-04 raceXlites but that was warrantied. They've since fixed the problem with the rims and I probably have 15K miles on them right now without touching the hubs or rims.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*go Swiss*

DT Hugi 240 hubs
DTRevSpokes
DTRR1.1Rims
28hole (or32) 2x front, 3xrear
totalweight
28/1416 grams
32 /1495 grams
price under $700
easily retrued, easily fixed, parts easily replaced

tweak a rim on a K (around $2oo and over a month wait)


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

^^ hrm... finding it hard to believe 8 more spokes is gunna cost u 80g... also IMO u'd battle to get those down to 1416g..... i'd say the weight for 32 is pretty close, and for 28s maybe around 1460g...

dt 1.1s, even the single eyelets versions are NOT 415g... they're pretty close to OPs... 425-30g...


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## ProudDaddy (Apr 19, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> DT Hugi 240 hubs
> DTRevSpokes
> DTRR1.1Rims
> 28hole (or32) 2x front, 3xrear
> ...


This is a good route. I bought a Zipp CSC team wheelset barely used off ebay that included nearly new DA cassette and brand new conti gatorskins for $540 shipped. The only thing zipp on this setup are the hubs/skewers with DTRR1.1 rims 28/32 and DT aero light spokes (i think). Given the weight (not quite weenie, but not bad), I believe these wheels are about as bomb proof, stiff and fast as you can get with those factors combined, especially with Michelin latex and Pro3s.


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## Wheel Right (Jun 5, 2008)

*White H2, Sapim CX-Ray, Velocity Aerohead*

You are in luck, you do not need to spend more than about $800 to put together the best clinchers available for your riding habits. 

By best I mean:
1. Lightweight relative to commercially available factory wheelsets
2. Strong
3. Resistant to windup and lateral deflection
4. Durable
5. Easily serviced and maintained for years of quality experiences

Rider weight: ~160 lbs
Target Wheel Weight: ~1,530 gr
Target Price: $670 components full retail, $800 built & signed by a quality wheel builder 
General Description: 32h rear/28h front lightweight durable clinchers
Compared to Mavic Ksyrium SL Premium: 1590 gr/$1,090.00 full retail

Details of recommended build - 

Rear Hub: 32 hole White Industries H2, 247gr (my scale), Optimized flange geometry builds a stronger wheel, Steel Axle, Ti Cassette Carrier, can be configured for Shimano, SRAM, or Campy. Great bearings, seals without punitive drag from sealing mechanisms (no bushings like some european factory wheels), stays put in dropouts, easy to service. No creaky cassette carrier noise like Aluminum Cassette carriers. Elegant & simple aesthetics Black or Silver . . . which is the new black ;-)

Front Hub: 28 hole White Industries H2, 95gr

Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray, 3-cross rear, 2-cross front ( as a wheel builder, there is a long laundry list of why to use these spokes, you just care that they are stronger than the other light alternatives and make a great wheel ). I would shy away from a 14/17 gauge round spokes . . . although you could save some $ over the CX-Rays and shave a few grams per wheel, you will likely increase lateral deflection and windup, and may also reduce the durability of the wheel.

Nipples: Sapim Polyax brass for right rear (drive side), alloy for all other spokes. The spoke head design reduces the potential for stress risers at the rim over other name brand spokes.

Front Rim: Velocity Areohead 28h ~420gr. (I am 220#, this rim is lighter than many but stays tight and true for me year in and year out)

Rear Rim: Velocity Aerohead Off Center 32h ~440gr. The spoke bed is off set by 4mm which in conjunction with the optimized postioning of the H2 hub flanges brings non drive side tension up to nearly 80% of drive side tension for a much stronger wheel than any "name brand" centered spoke bed aluminum rim that is easily available could ever hope to be a part of. 

Top these wheels off with a supple 23mm Vittoria Open Corsa EX, roll along and have fun.

Option: change to tubular and reduce the wheel set weight (w/o tires) by 80+ grams as well as another 100 to 160 grams in tires and tubes.

Performance option: Swap out bearings for ceramic if you think there is a benefit. (hybrid Grade 3, don't need to go full ceramic, nor do you want to go with lower quality grade 5 ceramic hybrids)

Benefits over factory wheelsets: No bushings in the hubs. Lighter wheel perimeter reduces the wheels' moment of inertia for hill climbing and sprints.

Downside of clinchers versus tubulars: Total rolling wheel weight of clinchers with tires can be >200grams heavier than comparably built / priced tubular wheels with tires.

Other considerations: If your average pace is in the mid 20mph's consider deep section carbon rims for events if you are seriously concerned about your finishing time. 

Note about rider weight: If you weigh > 180 lbs consider a 32h 2x front wheel. You will appreciate the additional stability while descending curvy roads and when you accidentally hit a bump (increase of roughly 19gr which is nothing if you are > 180 lbs). If you weigh > 200 lbs consider a 32h front and a 36h rear wheel (increase of another 19 grams, nothing for a big person). If a hub manufacturer does not make a 36 hole rear hub in the model you are considering they probably do not want clydesdales riding their hubs . . . look for something with a more durable axle and cassette carrier. I read somewhere that some well known high end product warrantees are limited to riders who weigh less than 80kg (176 lbs), good information when you are selecting for weight and durability. What would your insurance provider say if you had an accident and they found out that you were riding products that were outside of the intended usage parameters?

Have a great ride,
WR


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Wheel Right said:


> Rider weight: ~160 lbs
> General Description: 32h rear/28h front lightweight durable clinchers
> WR


Why so many spokes? I am 165-170lbs and ride 20/24 on Niob 25mm Tubulars and 20/24 30mm Niob clnchers and these wheels are MORE than stiff enough for me. I have had tubulars for over a year and never needed truing.

Even my old 24/28 custom/Niob 350 wheels never needed truing in 2 1/2 yrs and were morte thewn stiff enough.

All wheels used DT Aerolite spokes and Aluminum wheels. Radial front. radila NGS and 2X GS.

Now your quote would be more than stiff and bomb proof. But lower count wheels should do him just as well, plenty stiff and durable with those Sweet H2 hubs.


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## Wheel Right (Jun 5, 2008)

DB thanks for the questions - Sure you can drop roughly 80 gr off of my recommendation by pushing the limit on spoke count. On the other hand, that 80gr may come with a performance penalty in a sprint or hard climb when the rear wheel is wound up and begins to surge. At 6'3", >200lbs, with 180mm cranks I am probably more sensitive to wheel wind up in a sprint or hill climb than most. I am admittedly conservative on this front. I personally ride 36R/32F because I think I feel the difference, and I can measure the difference in wind up on the workbench in my garage. If I did this for a living, I think I would have to set up a system to calculate the relative advantages of stiffness versus weight prior to making a definitive recommendation . . . but my opinion may err on the conservative side. I do not have enough data points to know how low a rider of a given weight can safely go. Your data points seem to suggest that one can safely go impressively light. Kudos for building a good wheel set for yourself.


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## Psychler (May 16, 2004)

I am in a similar 'boat'...I have narrowed my choices to the Williams System 19 and a set of wheels by WhiteMountain Wheels. Here are some questions: At 155 lbs, not racing, doing very fast group rides for 3 seasons...do I 'need' aero spokes? Round will reduce weight.
I have WI hubs on my mountain bike, have rebuilt them several times over the years, great company, reliable product... I am not familiar with the 'reliability', etc of the Wms hubs...
Any feedback on comparing the two builds? Is it worth the extra $200-ish to gain White hubs and bladed spokes?


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## Wheel Right (Jun 5, 2008)

The notion that flat bladed spokes are "aero" is a misconception. There may be some aero enhancement, but that is not the reason to use them.

The reason to choose the Sapim CX-Ray is because it has been hammered flat which changes the micro structure of the metal and makes it a more stable spoke. It is a little lighter than most 14/15 dbl butted spokes which is nice, but it holds tension better, doesn't deform while increasing tension during a build, and resists elongation under acceleration better than other spokes I have tried. All in all, it just contributes to a better more stable wheel structure. In my mind, if budget is an issue, revert to a round 14/15 gauge dbl butted spoke by either Sapim or DT, but use Sapim Polyax nipples. It think it adds about 1.8 grams per spoke to the wheel set weight to use a round 14/15 gauge spoke. 

Hubs are the heart of a wheel set, if a spoke breaks, you can replace it (costs a couple of bucks, possibly shop time). If a rim dents you can replace it (costs rim and nipples, possibly spokes). If a hub fails . . . you have to build a new wheel including the rim, spokes, nipples and hub. The hub is the most expensive part of a traditional wheel, but the consequence of failure is often to replace the entire wheel which is even more expensive. I invest in good quality rebuildable hubs and take care of them. The White Industries H2 is my 1st choice.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

the man is right... good hubs can live forever.... not to be hysterical or anything, but i'm always iffy re: hubs sourced from china/taiwan.... i've never been impressed by the products i have seen...

dunno why u have to junk the rim tho... maybe spokes and nips for diff flanges if you are swapping types of hubs, but rims?


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## durkind (May 24, 2004)

Topolino


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*he speaks the truth*



Wheel Right said:


> The notion that flat bladed spokes are "aero" is a misconception. There may be some aero enhancement, but that is not the reason to use them.
> 
> The reason to choose the Sapim CX-Ray is because it has been hammered flat which changes the micro structure of the metal and makes it a more stable spoke. It is a little lighter than most 14/15 dbl butted spokes which is nice, but it holds tension better, doesn't deform while increasing tension during a build, and resists elongation under acceleration better than other spokes I have tried. All in all, it just contributes to a better more stable wheel structure. In my mind, if budget is an issue, revert to a round 14/15 gauge dbl butted spoke by either Sapim or DT, but use Sapim Polyax nipples. It think it adds about 1.8 grams per spoke to the wheel set weight to use a round 14/15 gauge spoke.
> 
> Hubs are the heart of a wheel set, if a spoke breaks, you can replace it (costs a couple of bucks, possibly shop time). If a rim dents you can replace it (costs rim and nipples, possibly spokes). If a hub fails . . . you have to build a new wheel including the rim, spokes, nipples and hub. The hub is the most expensive part of a traditional wheel, but the consequence of failure is often to replace the entire wheel which is even more expensive. I invest in good quality rebuildable hubs and take care of them. The White Industries H2 is my 1st choice.


and lower spoke count means higher spoke tension, not a good thing
beauty of a 32 spoke(or28 or 36 perrider size) wheel, you pop a spoke, you get home riding not walking

nice to have a good 'sensible' voice around here. Where are ya??


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## orthobiker (Oct 12, 2007)

*Best Clinchers*

Leonrice,

I am your size and after trying various wheels had a local builder do clinchers with DT Swiss 240 hubs, 28 crossed aero spokes, and Velocity Aerohead rims. They came in 30gms lighter than my Bontrager X-Lites and are much more comfortable and stable. Price was $900. Highly recommend.


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## AlanS (Feb 5, 2003)

Here's what has been quoted for me:
I'd suggest the Nio22 rims for you with the WI 
hubs and light butted spokes (2.0/1.5mm), with 2.0/1.7mm on the DS... 
24f and 28r, would weigh ~1400g. Approx: $600...
CXRay spokes + $100= $700-ish. 
This does not seem to jive with your spoke amont posts of above...should I be concerned? 
155 lbs...no racing...hilly, N.Y. roads...


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## leonrice (Jun 16, 2006)

I've been looking on excelsports.com and the prices for custom built wheels seem great. Here is the setup that I'm looking at:

Mavic Open Pro CD Rims(front and rear)
Chris King Classic hubs
14/15 double butted DT Revolution spokes
Black alloy nipples
3x lacing on 32 hole rims
Continental Grand prix 4000 tires

Total $740

Any opinions?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

AlanS said:


> Here's what has been quoted for me:
> I'd suggest the Nio22 rims for you with the WI
> hubs and light butted spokes (2.0/1.5mm), with 2.0/1.7mm on the DS...
> 24f and 28r, would weigh ~1400g. Approx: $600...
> ...


Those sound very nice and should be perfect for you.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Wheel Right said:


> The reason to choose the Sapim CX-Ray is because it has been hammered flat which changes the micro structure of the metal and makes it a more stable spoke


The butted spokes are drawn and hammered *round* rather than oval... not any appreciable difference. The ends are identical, and that is where all the problems occur. Also, the elastic modulus of the materal does not increase with cold-working, ie... no change in stiffness.

The reason to get CX-Rays is for the aero benefit.


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

American Classic 420's


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

AC 420s? thats a joke right? on top of their bad general rep, one of my buddies kept on breaking them until he gave up and went with something with some cred: DT 1450s... he weighs about all of 65kg (145lbs)


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## raymonda (Jan 31, 2007)

No joke. Though it is true that 3-4 years ago they had a run of bad pawls, that problem was fixed long ago. Also, there were a number of bootlegged 420 that flooded the market a few years back, which were slopply built in China. Some people bought these on the cheap and they quickly went out of true. Many had to be completely rebuilt in order to hold true.

However, if you buy an authentic 420's from a dealer you will get an excellent wheel set. I bought a 2006 set, which I have put around 6,000 miles on. They run smooth and have bearly had to be touch for truing. I think the first 200 miles I had to turn one rear nipple an 1/8 of a turn to true it up. 

I weigh between 175-165, depending whether it is early or late season and they hold my weight fine.

Their advantage is that they are extremely lite, 1470 or so and their spokes can be easily replaced. Not that I have need to.

Ray


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

musta been one of the lucky ones... it makes sense u recommend them if you've no issues... on paper its a great multi-role wheelset....

but based on other reviews, but mostly my team mate (who btw part-times at a cycling store and gets his gear from the trade at cost) had a horrible time with them and is keeping them aside to be properly rebuilt... 'one day'.

his specific issue was breaking spokes... can't remember if his was the wide bladed version or the round, but yeah... 4th time in quick succession broke the camel's back... also, and get this (i was considering the wheels myself), he found the rear way too flexy... this makes sense since the rims are quite light and more to the point the rear hub flange is narrow.... he actually did like the hubs tho, liked how they rolled...

apart from that, others have also had these exact problems, as well as with the rims that sometimes deform under the tension of the spokes... it is a rather light rim for a 34mm profile... The DTs come in under 1500g, the AC my friend has weighed around 1570g IIRC, not as advertised... big deal, but worth noting.... on the whole, given its spotty-rep, and given the RRP that AC suggests on their website, its a questionable 'deal' IMO.... but it is only my opinion.... :thumbsup: the new labels look pretty damn hot, will say that...


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## jakeb (Jun 8, 2008)

Wheel Right said:


> You are in luck, you do not need to spend more than about $800 to put together the best clinchers available for your riding habits.
> 
> By best I mean:
> 1. Lightweight relative to commercially available factory wheelsets
> ...


What length (mm) spokes are required for this build? I would really like to do this set up.


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## Wheel Right (Jun 5, 2008)

wankski said:


> the man is right... good hubs can live forever.... not to be hysterical or anything, but i'm always iffy re: hubs sourced from china/taiwan.... i've never been impressed by the products i have seen...
> 
> dunno why u have to junk the rim tho... maybe spokes and nips for diff flanges if you are swapping types of hubs, but rims?


Good question. A matter of personal policy. I replace my rims every 10,000 miles or once a year, whichever comes first, so I never re-use a rim.


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## Wheel Right (Jun 5, 2008)

rruff said:


> The butted spokes are drawn and hammered *round* rather than oval... not any appreciable difference. The ends are identical, and that is where all the problems occur. Also, the elastic modulus of the materal does not increase with cold-working, ie... no change in stiffness.
> 
> The reason to get CX-Rays is for the aero benefit.


rruff - You may be correct regarding the effect or non effect of forming a round spoke into an "aero" shape . . . I do not know all the details of why the CX-Rays are more stable than other round and aero spokes of similar weight . . . I just know that they are. 

CX-Rays are both lighter and measurably stronger than a Sapim Race (round 2.0-1.8-2.0 butted spokes) as well as considerably stronger than round spokes of many manufacturers that may be lighter than the CX Ray. By strength I am not talking about whether the spoke will break or not, but how it performs under load. The mid section strength (resistance to elongation and twisting) of a CX-Ray is 1600N/mm2, versus 1350N/mm2 for a double butted round spoke 2.0-1.8-2.0 like the Sapim Race. Additionally, the CX-Rays are over a gram lighter than the round Race. I wish I could explain why, maybe someone out there knows why. 

In my opinion - Reasons to use CX-Ray:
1. Stiffer wheels
2. Lighter wheels
3. Vibration dampening
4. Aero (roughly equivalent aerodynamically in a TT to riding bare handed intead of wearing lycra gloves) . . . but I'd use a use a Hed fr wheel and a disc in the rear for TT, so that I could wear my gloves


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

Wheel Right said:


> Additionally, the CX-Rays are over a gram lighter than the round Race. I wish I could explain why, maybe someone out there knows why.


AFAIK, cx-rays are made from sapim lasers (similar to dt revolution, 2.0-1.5-2.0)... not RACE..... so that 'splains the weight.... its a thinner spoke.... IIRC cx-rays have the same tested stiffness and weight as lasers.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Wheel Right said:


> The mid section strength (resistance to elongation and twisting) of a CX-Ray is 1600N/mm2, versus 1350N/mm2 for a double butted round spoke 2.0-1.8-2.0 like the Sapim Race.


What wanski said... plus the most likely reason for why CX-Rays have a higher tensile (not twisting) stress (not strength) than Race is because they are thinner. A 1.8mm round cross section is 44% larger in area than a 1.5mm cross section. The area of a 1.8mm dia is 2.54mm^2... for 1.5mm it is 1.77mm^2. So the Race will take a (2.54*1350=) 3,429N load, and the CX-Ray a (1.77*1600=) 2,720N load before failure.

Sapim shows a fatigue test which claims that CX-Rays are the most fatigue resistant spokes, but I doubt that test was properly done... since I can't think of any reason why they should outlast a Laser.


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## MarvinK (Feb 12, 2002)

Why are you replacing the Bontragers, again? They should be pretty nice--I would keep them unless you're looking at some much more expensive carbon wheels, or want more durable rebuildable wheels.

I have Fulcrum Racing 1s and 3s, and like them a lot--but seems hard to justify switching from already plenty decent wheels. Be warned, though, that any of the Campy/Fulcrum wheels have a quite loud freehub compared to Bontrager. The Chris King hubs you're looking at are loud AND high pitched. Make sure you hear them and don't mind the noise before you buy them.


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## Wheel Right (Jun 5, 2008)

rruff said:


> What wanski said... plus the most likely reason for why CX-Rays have a higher tensile (not twisting) stress (not strength) than Race is because they are thinner. A 1.8mm round cross section is 44% larger in area than a 1.5mm cross section. The area of a 1.8mm dia is 2.54mm^2... for 1.5mm it is 1.77mm^2. So the Race will take a (2.54*1350=) 3,429N load, and the CX-Ray a (1.77*1600=) 2,720N load before failure.
> 
> Sapim shows a fatigue test which claims that CX-Rays are the most fatigue resistant spokes, but I doubt that test was properly done... since I can't think of any reason why they should outlast a Laser.


Cool, thanks for clearing that up. This all makes good sense to me. 

Maybe you can help to demystify more of my experience. I do not have experience with Sapim Laser or RACE spokes, but I do have considerable experience with CX Rays, DT Aerolites and DT 2.0/1.8/2.0 dbl butted spokes. What I notice when when using the Sapim product versus the DT products is that the DT spokes especially the Aerolites can "go plastic" under a relatively normal tension, whereas the Sapim spokes hold tight and stable under similar tensions. The typical phenomenon is that the Aerolite, even when stabilized with a bladed spoke holder will begin to elongate and twist like a corkskrew in unpredictable ways as it approaches 125 - 130 kgf. I find that the normal 2.0/1.8 dbl butted DT spokes behave similarly at similar tensions, although they have less of a tendency to elongate than the Aerolites, but they "twist up" even though it is less noticeable due to the fact that they are round. On the other hand the Sapims are very stable around this tension . . . I have not found the limit to their tension. I do not even need to stabilize the blade of the spoke while bringing up tension except on the highest tension deep section carbon rims like Lew Racing. The Polyax nipples seem to remain more stable at normal aluminum rim tensions as well. I have never "rounded" a Polyax nipple. A pro tour wrench told me that the underlying materials that Sapim uses to build the spokes and nipples are simply of a higher quality standard than their competitors, others claim that the way Sapim forms the transition from round to blade is more stable . . . does anyone have a good explanation of why a spoke like the Sapim CX Ray consistently behaves differently under tension than a supposedly similar spoke like the DT Aerolite?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I use CX-Ray spokes more than any other, but I've used the others you mention also, plus all the Wheelsmith spokes. I don't recall having a problem with any of them yielding at high tension... ever. Anything smaller than 1.7mm will probably need to be held though, to avoid excessive twist. I wonder if it could be the lube you use on the threads, since this could be a significant factor.

I doubt Sapim is using better materials, but who knows. They all seem to have random issues form time to time.


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## MesaJunior (Jun 9, 2008)

On the roadbikereview.com reviews everybody rates the ac 420 as first class


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