# Some Trek Madone Questions, Need Some Help Please



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

A couple questions about the Trek Madone:
1. Are there differences in the frames between 2008 and 2009?
2. The lower end Madones, the 4.5 and 4.7 TCT carbon Made in Taiwan models---Are these the ones that are supposedly made in Giant's factory? These two are in my price range and I'd like to know if these frames are any good. 
3. If trying to compare a 2008 5.2 Pro (OCLV Black Carbon,Ultegra SL, USA made) at $2800 and a 2009 4.7 (TCT Taiwan carbon, Ultegra) at $2500, what would be the better choice? It seems if geometry hasn't changed between 08 and 09 as far as the frames go, then the OCLV carbon frame of the 08 5.2 Pro would be a better choice. Am I right? 
4.I know this is a Trek forum and there may be some bias here, but as I shop and ride, the '09 Giant TCR Advanced carbon frames (not the SL) look and ride nicely. How do you think this frame compares to the Treks I'm looking at? The TCR Advanced 3 comes in at $2500 (105) and the Advanced 2 (Ultegra) at $2900.

All info appreciated! I'm sure I will be posting more comparisons here and asking for advice as I narrow down my choices. 


Thanks! 


Nate


----------



## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

1. Next to nothing. The cable routing has been improved at the BB and rear brake cable. derailleur hangar has been updated to make room for the 11-28 cogsets that are coming.

2. The TCT frames are VERY good. You give up a few features like the BB and seatmast, as well as OCLV construction but this leaves them just as good as everything else on the market. Having ridden one I'm very impressed. It doesn't come in a "Pro" fit (shorter headtube). 

3. Get the 5.2. $300 over the time you'll own the bike is nothing and you'll always regret it if you don't get it. $2800 for a 5.2 is a steal.

4. The Giants ride very well, light and smooth. The Trek will feel more solid and stiffer, especially in the front triangle. It will feel less lively but more stable.


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

Thank you for the info, you've been very helpful! I think I'm getting closer to my decision. Someone pointed out to me the "Made in the USA" factor regarding the OCLV frame as well. That normally would not be a big factor, but the way the economy is right now, I'd like to invest in something that helps my own country and the people working in it.


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

1) Differences between the 08 and 09:
---If you are talking the 4.x Madones, then nothing other than color.
---if you are talking about the 5/6.x Madones, then the only significant change (upgrade) was the addition of a replaceable derailleur hanger.

2) The TCT carbon Madones (the 4.x) series are first class frames. I would hold them up against many top of the line carbon frames made today. I have said it before and I will say it again, the 4.5 would be my idea of a great race bike if I was paying and wanted to race carbon - and wouldn't cry if I crashed it.

3) No question the 5.2! You are getting Trek's latest technology (wider BB, the no90 fork, the seat mast/cap cluster) which in my years of riding has made the most comfortable race bike on the planet. And I don't mean comfort in the way that the ride is dead or wooden, I mean it in the fact that you still feel fresh after a 4 or 5 hour ride. I have never been able to say this before about any other race bike I have ridden, and the perception is evident and immediate, it's like someone turned on a light switch.

4) The Giants you name are great bikes too. I wouldn't hesitate to ride either one. The components and price points are comparable. I would say that you need to get the bike that you want and feels the best under you. Take them out on an extended ride and push them to your limits. Many people don't like the "Trek" ride. They want more road buzz, as they equate this to road feel. It is not right or wrong, it is just personal preference, and that is what is most important.
And while many people wont admit it, assuming you like the ride and set up of the different bikes you are looking at, color scheme may be the deciding factor.

If it comes down to the Treks though, beg borrow and steal the additional funds for the 5.2. You seriously wont regret it.

zac


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zac said:


> They want more road buzz, as they equate this to road feel
> zac


The Lexus said to the Porsche.


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

zac said:


> 1) Differences between the 08 and 09:
> ---If you are talking the 4.x Madones, then nothing other than color.
> ---if you are talking about the 5/6.x Madones, then the only significant change (upgrade) was the addition of a replaceable derailleur hanger.
> 
> ...


Excellent information and advice. Thank you. I think I need to try to get a bit of an extended ride in on the 5.2 as you suggested. I'm leaning that way--and I do love the black and white and gray scheme on the '08 Performance fit 5.2!


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I love my '08 5.2. I have the pro fit because I am quite bendy and it is extremely comfortable. As zac mentioned it is great for long rides. I have ridden a 5 hour (+) ride (80 miles) and felt great! Ok, my legs were made of jello, but the rest of my body was fine. The bike is snappy, stiff but doesn't wear you down. Exactly what I want out of it.

If you get a 5.2 (or any other Trek and maybe any other bike too) be sure to set aside some dough for a nice saddle. After I swapped the stock saddle for another one the ride got so much better.


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

*I*

Thanks for everyone's help and advice. You have all been very helpful. I went with the '08 Madone 5.2 Performance Fit in the black/white/grey scheme-- understated and beautiful IMHO. I pick it up Monday. Today I got equipped with a silver/grey Bell sweep XC helmet, some Sidi Genius 5 shoes (I love these already, I just bought some Sidi Vertigo motorcycle boots at Christmas and I was more than happy to add another pair of Sidis to the stable, sooo comfortable and they look great, excellent materials/craftsmanship), bottle, and bottle holder. I now need to figure out what pedals to put on the bike and what cycle computer I'd like to get. Sooooo, any experience/advice on what pedal set or cycle computer you'd recommend? My local shop has a pair of '08 Ultegra pedals that are marked down to $100. That seems like a good deal but I don't want to buy without doing some research first---suggestions? Computer? Pedals?

Thanks!


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

Nothing wrong with the Ultegra pedals at all. Price not too bad either. They are a top of the line pedal and they will match the rest of your bike too. Plus the thing I like about the Shimano pedals is I can ride them like a platform pedal with sneakers or sandles when I am tooling around on my road bike with the family.

FWIW the new version of the Shimano pedals have a steel cleat-rocker plate that doesn't wear out (as quickly - but they deform a bit) as the plastic ones did. They are a bit wider too. That being said, Shimano pedals always came with a replacement set of plastic plates and they didn't wear out that quickly, (a replacement set is like $3 anyway). As to the wider platform, I doubt most notice, as it is the cleat engagement that matters and that hasn't changed one millimeter.

Get the Shimano yellow SPD-SL cleats your knees will thank you. The yellow cleats have float, the red do not. Basically stay away from the red cleats unless you have a specific reason for needing them - and you would already know what that was.

Your cleats will come with the short 8mm bolts for holding the cleat to the shoe. YOU ARE GOING TO NEED A LONGER SCREW. For some reason only the Sidi Genius5 shoes require this. I think the sole under the embedded receiving nut is thicker. You will need the 10mm screws (the supplied screws are 8mm - which fit fine for just about every shoe on the planet expect the Sidi G5.) Have your LBS fit the cleat to the shoe and to the pedal, this should be done per your fitting. You may want to casually mention the longer screw but I am sure they are already aware of it.

If you do the fitting on your own, make sure you measure the screw, and don't get the 12mm screws cause they will push through the last of your shoe (not good) If you can only get the long screw, and are comfortable using a file, then grind them down to size. I would stay away from hardware store fare unless you can get 1) stainless and 2) the appropriate grade screw - I am pretty sure these screws are hardened and a bit more durable than your average stainless screw. DON'T BE TEMPTED TO NOT USE THE RECTANGULAR GUIDE/SLIDE PLATES FOR THE SCREWS to make them fit. These plates are really what holds the cleat to the shoe. Lastly use a bit of thread locker on the screws: it serves three purposes: 1) Keeps them from loosening - which is notorious for cleat bolts; 2) keeps the stainless from seizing up - which stainless to stainless tends to do and 3) keeps the squeaks out in the colder weather. 

Can't help you with the cycle computer, I gave them up permanently at the beginning of last season and I am not regretting it one iota. (and I had been using cycle computers since when they first came out).

HTH
zac


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I run a Polar CS200 with cadence, speed and hr. I think the cadence sensor was "sold separately." Works flawlessly!


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

zac said:


> Nothing wrong with the Ultegra pedals at all. Price not too bad either. They are a top of the line pedal and they will match the rest of your bike too. Plus the thing I like about the Shimano pedals is I can ride them like a platform pedal with sneakers or sandles when I am tooling around on my road bike with the family.
> 
> FWIW the new version of the Shimano pedals have a steel cleat-rocker plate that doesn't wear out (as quickly - but they deform a bit) as the plastic ones did. They are a bit wider too. That being said, Shimano pedals always came with a replacement set of plastic plates and they didn't wear out that quickly, (a replacement set is like $3 anyway). As to the wider platform, I doubt most notice, as it is the cleat engagement that matters and that hasn't changed one millimeter.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the huge amount of excellent information. Let's say that I went with a different pedal other than the Shimano Ultegra--say the Look Keo which I'm considering for example--will I need the longer 10mm screw for the cleats that come with those as well or is this an issue specific only to Shimano cleats?


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

N8shon said:


> Thanks for the huge amount of excellent information. Let's say that I went with a different pedal other than the Shimano Ultegra--say the Look Keo which I'm considering for example--will I need the longer 10mm screw for the cleats that come with those as well or is this an issue specific only to Shimano cleats?


To answer your specific question, no, the Look Keo uses its own mounting hardware that has absolutely nothing to do with this particular issue. (but see below, as this issue seems to bite only the Sidi Genius 5)

Don't let my lengthy post scare you off the Ultegras. It is really almost a non-issue*. It is just a particular thing to take note of. I have 4 pairs of Sidi shoes, and the Genius 5 is the only one that needs the slightly longer screw. 

(*There is another post in here from a few days ago discussing the screw issue wiht the G5s. One of the poster there, Eric something, had an informative explanation as to how to get the standard 8mm screw working on the Genius 5 - definitely worth a read.)

As to the Looks, note that the Keo cleat is different than the Shimano SPD-SL. The Keo will come with it's own specific cleat and mounting hardware. This being said, I haven't heard of the same issue, but I suppose it could be as I think the issue is with the shoe and not the length of the screw. BUT, I don't ride Looks, (all my shoes/pedals are SPD-SL), so maybe someone who does can chime in.

Good luck.

PS: Not trashing the Looks they are a great pedal/cleat, and indeed invented the clipless pedal, but you cannot walk on the Keo cleat, doing so will ruin it. That is the great thing about the Shimano SPD-SL cleat...while you shouldn't really walk in any road cycling shoe, you can with the SPD-SL and you don't risk wearing them down or affecting their integrity.


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm pretty confident that what my LBS has for $100 is the older model with the plastic plate instead of the metal. Speedplay Zeros and Look Keos both are appealing. I like how both of them look and they seem to be fairly popular and solid. The Keos at my LBS are $119.99 and the Speedplay Zeros are $184.99. The Keos are looking better and better for the price but will I'm thinking I may want the extra float of the Speedplays in the long run. Hmmm....from what Zac mentioned, you can't walk on Keo cleats, but you can using Shimano's--Can you walk on the Speedplay cleat?


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

You shouldn't walk on the Speedplays either. All the companies make covers for the cleats so you 1) can "walk" with them and 2) don't break your neck cause they are so frick'n slippery on anything but rubber floors and sandpaper. Don't worry about the plastic plates, all that means is that you are getting a great pedal for much less than what you normally could. When Shimano introduced the metal plate last year, I was able to pick up 2 or 3 sets of DuraAce pedals for I think $99/set, yes the ones with the plastic plate. 

Don't be romanced by the speedplays lightweight. What the pedal makes up for, the heavy cleat gives back in spades. However, I have yet to hear of anyone who doesn't love their Speedplays, (think Apple like fanaticism  )


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

Hahaha, as I type this on my Macbook Pro....

So we've got some votes for and against the plactic plates both here and in my other thread---to those who are saying that the plastic plates wear out....how long are we talking here before they are trashed? 2 months, a year? Do replacements come with them? How much are they to replace?


----------



## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

N8shon said:


> Hahaha, as I type this on my Macbook Pro....
> 
> So we've got some votes for and against the plactic plates both here and in my other thread---to those who are saying that the plastic plates wear out....how long are we talking here before they are trashed? 2 months, a year? Do replacements come with them? How much are they to replace?


For $20 more you could get these and not worry about it.
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=24075&subcategory_ID=10046
They run coupon sales all the time for 10 - 20% off.

BTW, re: your bike computer question. I swear by the Cateye Astrale 8. Has cadence (if you care) and a rear wheel sensor so it works on trainers.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=8684
Same deal for Nashbar. Coupon sales all the time.


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

N8shon said:


> Hahaha, as I type this on my Macbook Pro....
> 
> So we've got some votes for and against the plactic plates both here and in my other thread---to those who are saying that the plastic plates wear out....how long are we talking here before they are trashed? 2 months, a year? Do replacements come with them? How much are they to replace?


And me on my iPhone! 

1) The pedals come with an extra set of plates, yes; 2) They last until they don't, which is a long time. For instance I rode over 14k miles last year on 3 bikes all with DA pedals (very similar to the Ultegras you are looking at). Not exactly sure but I only recall one change last year on my main ride and oldest set. 3) Your LBS can order them for you for just a couple of $, but they can be found online too.

I am sorry that I brought up the issue, because I think you are over thinking this. The plastic plate really is a non issue, don't be afraid of it. $100 ultegra 6600 pedals is a good deal. By the time you wear that plate out, shimano will have something newer even to replace it!

Now go get'em and ride!

zac


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

Hahah, nah not overthinking, it's just been a day spent inside watching it snow inch after inch here in Georgia! (doesn't happen here much) The motorcycle racing on TV has made things a bit more exciting though. Go Ben Spies--1st win in SBK race 2 at Philip Island--what an awesome debut!

Back to pedals---ok good--I'd like to support my LBS by getting something there so I'll give those Ultegras a shot.


----------



## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

My 2 cents? I run Speedplay Frogs with a Sidi mountain shoe. Easy in, easy out, float for the knees and if I ever need to walk, the cleat is recessed so I can walk like a human being as opposed to waddling like a duck without any risk to the cleat. Of course, someone will say that the mountain shoes arent as stiff as road shoes, but thats a load of nonsense. Look into it, you might be very happy with this type of setup. Good luck and enjoy the 5.2, its an unbelievable bike!


----------



## N8shon (Feb 22, 2009)

08Madone5.2 said:


> My 2 cents? I run Speedplay Frogs with a Sidi mountain shoe. Easy in, easy out, float for the knees and if I ever need to walk, the cleat is recessed so I can walk like a human being as opposed to waddling like a duck without any risk to the cleat. Of course, someone will say that the mountain shoes arent as stiff as road shoes, but thats a load of nonsense. Look into it, you might be very happy with this type of setup. Good luck and enjoy the 5.2, its an unbelievable bike!


Sounds like a good setup but I'm going to stick with the road stuff--I love my Sidis


----------



## 08Madone5.2 (Dec 25, 2007)

I love my Sidis too!


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Sounds like I gotta test ride the new Madones maybe. I have the older series (straight top tube) and love it. 

I wonder how much of a difference I could feel.


----------



## zac (Aug 5, 2005)

uzziefly said:


> Sounds like I gotta test ride the new Madones maybe. I have the older series (straight top tube) and love it.
> 
> I wonder how much of a difference I could feel.


uzziefly, the ride feel is a not much different. It is the long term feel. The new Madones just don't beat you up.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

zac said:


> uzziefly, the ride feel is a not much different. It is the long term feel. The new Madones just don't beat you up.


I'm actually pretty sure it's gonna be similar but I'd like to see how the new Madones ride overall.

I'm sure I won't notice the stiffness nor the responsiveness etc. In fact, the only thing I'd notice could be a long term feel like you said.

Then again, my current Madone doesn't beat me up either.


----------



## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Yeah, but you are lighter than air.


----------



## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> Yeah, but you are lighter than air.


At least I kinda climb decently too thankfully!! 

//I thought of Bent when I rode yesterday up a climb as I literally came up beside a big guy, nodded and then took off. In reference to Bent's skinny guys thread.


----------

