# How to get "lean"



## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

I have been losing weight as am planning on doing an IM as well as just for overall health. At my heaviest i was 199 (am only 5'9 so yeah was a bit chubby). I have gotten down to about 172 over the past year through increased excercise and diet. Currently I seem to be stuck at this weight and can't get below it although I do know I could lose another 5-10 of fat without losing any power. 
So the question is how do you get lean? My last BF measurment was at 18% which corresponds with my current weight. Has anyone on here lost a lot of weight and gotten lean as well? what did you do?


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## Boosted333 (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm not sure what your current diet and exercise is, and it might help if you mention that. But you should be eating real food with good nutrition, stay away from processed foods... Drink water, about 1/2 your body weight in ounces is a good general target. Have a good mix of workouts, and keep the intensity high, intervals are your friend. 

I'm 5' 10" and about 6 years ago I crept up to 206 lbs... I was always happy around 180. My body fat was up around 20%. This was when I was into cars and drag-racing, and occasionally mountain biked and did physical things. But I did workout almost daily, it just wasn't anything intense (mainly weight-lifting). Then I got into doing intervals on the machines at the gym, more biking, some running here and there, still lifting a few times a week, completely changed what I ate... I eventually got down to 165 and 8.35% body fat, and I am very happy with my change in habits and how I feel.

Think of food as fuel, be aware of what you put into your body, and how your body reacts to what you eat. I now notice my blood pressure rise when I eat something I shouldn't, not many people can "feel" that until they really purge their system of all the junk that they eat. Eat your veggies! Make sure you try new healthy foods, mix up your meals and don't eat the same things over and over (so you get good mix of vitamins and minerals). 
Some people have good luck with heart rate monitors, some have built in programs that assess your current levels, and then come up with a program (look at the Polar FT60 or FT80 for example). Make sure you refuel after a hard workout, and also get proper rest. 

I could go on and on and on..... if you have any questions, feel free to ask. Hopefully something from this post helps!


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

psycleridr said:


> I have been losing weight as am planning on doing an IM as well as just for overall health. At my heaviest i was 199 (am only 5'9 so yeah was a bit chubby). I have gotten down to about 172 over the past year through increased excercise and diet. Currently I seem to be stuck at this weight and can't get below it although I do know I could lose another 5-10 of fat without losing any power.
> So the question is how do you get lean? My last BF measurment was at 18% which corresponds with my current weight. Has anyone on here lost a lot of weight and gotten lean as well? what did you do?



I started a thread a bit down the page about this...basically I substituted bread, starchy carbs, beer, etc...with fruit and vegetables. What I feel this has done is regulated my blood insulin/sugar so I don't feel as hungary ALL the time. Therefore, I have been successful at reducing the calories coming in. What I found interesting is it took months to see any change. FWIW, for years I used to ride approx 12-15 hours/week and was stuck at 165lbs. I'm now more than 10lbs lighter and I only ride 5 hrs/week right now. I do about 6 hrs/week core and strength training however.

I have no idea what my true BF was prior to the diet change or currently but, I've never looked more lean including when I was an athlete in college.


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## huckleberry (Jun 26, 2005)

I'm in agreement with Woody.

4 months ago, for medical reasons I cut out pasta, breads, processed foods/sugars, and alcohol. I eat a ton of veggies, nuts, meats and some fruit - as much as I want - and I struggle to keep the weight on.

6'3", 181 lbs, 4%bf - always been lean, but never this much. I'm also 47.

My strength is great, riding is the best it's been.

And as far as needing pasta/bread for carbs - there is more carbs in a cup of yams/sweet potatoes than in a cup of pasta, and it's much more nutritional - and thank goodness - it's yummier ; )

Not trying to say it's the only or best eating guidelines around, but worth checking out. I didn't think I would stick to this, as I thought I was eating healthy before, but I actually enjoy what I am eating more now than before.

I do miss beer - but in reality, not that much.

Good luck!


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

OK fair enough tat more info is needed. Obviously to lose almost 30 lbs I had to do a diet change and honestly I only excercise bewteen 4-7hours per week. I am 39 and 2 small boys (4 & 2) and I travel a good bit so time islimited. I have always thought I ate fairly healthy. Whole wheat bread, only brown rice, I like salad with only lemon or Oil and vinegar as dressing, plenty of fruits and nuts (only the healthy ones). I have severly reduced my red meat intake and eat more fish. Only skim milk in my coffee, hardly eat any cheese etc, etc, etc. So all in all a healthy diet. and yes of course veggies
I guess my biggest detriment (if you could call it that) is wine and I eat pasta 1-2 per week. But at least it is with a home made sauce that I make with fresh ingredients.
With the current weight loss and weight training/cardio work I have been told how much better I look and i do carry more muscle than the usual cyclist so I think if i can get down to 165 that would be ideal for me and sustainble. 
I am just trying to see what you mega skinny guys diet is like to see what further changes i can make
Thanks for all the replies


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## z3phrn (Mar 19, 2011)

Biggest single point of advice: Why fruit? It's sugar + water. You don't really need it. Take a multivitamin, eat green and red veggies, forget about fruit.


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

Biggest single point of advice: There's no magic combination.

Pro (road) cyclists tend to be very lean; many eat pasta. How much pasta (or whatever) to eat depends on how much you ride. 

A couple of other things that seem to help (me) in pushing down through a seeming barrier are (A) starting more of my medium-duration rides (~3 hours) on an empty stomach (but (i) I was already a lot leaner than you are before I thought it was time to try that and (ii) it's better placed in the off season) and (B) more intensity/no more food . . . .


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

I have recently started on the higher intensity workouts so I will see what happens. Most of the weight loss was last summer but was also just getting into shape then. Also during the winter I continued to ride mainly at low intensity (SST type rides). As nicer weather rolls around I am doing a couple of group rides as well as started swimming and intervals for running. I will continue currrent diet and see what happens with higher intensity b4 I make change to make sure I can attribute it to something specific.
FYI - goal is to look good and feel good so I do not plan on cutting out wine or beer as this is recreational for me with the occasional race.


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## GeoKrpan (Feb 3, 2008)

Ride single speed.

I've been riding SS for 3 years now and I'm the leanest and strongest I've ever been.
I never experienced anything like it in the 20 years that I only rode geared bikes.
I lost 4 inches on my waist and riders who haven't seen me in the last three years comment on the change in me.

I attribute the difference to the amount of standing that I do on an SS verses a geared bike. I live in a hilly/mountainous area and I stand a lot, it's the only way to get up the climbs, not possible sitting.
I can now stand for miles at a time.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

GeoKrpan said:


> Ride single speed.
> 
> I've been riding SS for 3 years now and I'm the leanest and strongest I've ever been.
> I never experienced anything like it in the 20 years that I only rode geared bikes.
> ...


Interesting. Generally standing elevates your HR/intensity. Combined with some caloric discipline this makes sense. Is that what you figured happened?


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## z3phrn (Mar 19, 2011)

GeoKrpan said:


> Ride single speed.
> 
> I've been riding SS for 3 years now and I'm the leanest and strongest I've ever been.
> I never experienced anything like it in the 20 years that I only rode geared bikes.
> ...


I think the actual concept that this boils down to is to use a gear that challenges yourself. Without a powermeter or cadence meter, it's very hard to measure output on a bike at a precise level, especially when exhausted. On a SS, you're forced into giving that 100% all the time (assuming hills), which is probably where your gains come from. 

The difference between standing up and sitting on the bike is just a slightly different muscle group; you can now stand for miles at a time (which is quite the discipline) because you trained that group so radically in that way.


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## GeoKrpan (Feb 3, 2008)

woodys737 said:


> Interesting. Generally standing elevates your HR/intensity. Combined with some caloric discipline this makes sense. Is that what you figured happened?


It does, elevate HR/intensity, but it diminishes the longer I ride SS. In other words, it gets easier the longer I do it.
So, I think, there is another factor and that is more total muscular activity. There are more muscles engaged when standing. My abdominal strength is much greater, both the stomach and lower back. Shoulders and arms are much stronger too. It is obvious to me that these areas weren't getting worked out nearly as much on a geared bike.
I'm not sure that I've lost weight but I'm sure I'm leaner. Old pants fit again and even a much loved suit jacket. They were way too small three years ago and now I'm almost swimming in them!


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## GeoKrpan (Feb 3, 2008)

z3phrn said:


> I think the actual concept that this boils down to is to use a gear that challenges yourself. Without a powermeter or cadence meter, it's very hard to measure output on a bike at a precise level, especially when exhausted. On a SS, you're forced into giving that 100% all the time (assuming hills), which is probably where your gains come from.
> 
> The difference between standing up and sitting on the bike is just a slightly different muscle group; you can now stand for miles at a time (which is quite the discipline) because you trained that group so radically in that way.


On a geared bike you have to force yourself to ride harder. On an SS you ARE forced to ride harder.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Just be careful and ease into it. You don't want an overuse injury from "challenging" your legs with tougher gears. I write this as I have been largely off the bike for three months.


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Don't eat desserts, ever.


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## .40AET (Aug 8, 2008)

The singlespeed bike has help me a lot as well. I'd go out for a MTB ride and do an easy 2 hours. With the SS it's 2 hours of suffering out of the saddle. My road climbing endurance has improved dramatically since the SS came into play in Jan. It's been building upper body strength that I've never had before. 

More importantly...I quit drinking last June and dropped 12 pounds in 3 weeks. (Yeah, I drank a fair amount) People who don't see me regularly now refer to me as "bike skinny". I'm a regular guy with a demanding job, 2 young boys and a house to take care of. I ride 4-5 times a week. Over the last 4 years of getting back into riding I went from 230lbs down to 169. (I'm 6'3") As others have said, ditch the processed foods, alcohol, deserts etc. Eat only what you need to fuel the machine. Your body will naturally consume the fat off. 

Use the money saved from booze to buy another bike. :thumbsup:

Good luck!!


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## Taco Brown (Dec 1, 2010)

Diet is more important than exercise here. From your description, it seems like you are eating fairly clean. Drop the wine and watch your nut intake. Nuts are great food, but they are very calorie-dense. 

Also, watch your portion sizes. Even a "healthy" diet can put on the pounds. I would track your weekly calories using one of the many available programs on the web. You may be eating more than you think.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

Since you are already exercising and training, losing more weight and getting lean is all about your diet. I'd suggest that Boosted333 and Woody's737 have given you some great advice. 

Get rid of processed foods and eat lean meat and lots of fruits and vegetables. 

Processed foods that seem healthy are not really that good for you. Eat very little stuff like bread, pasta, rice, etc. You can get enough carbs--high nutrient carbs--through fruits and vegetables. 

I have always been fairly thin, that is just my build, but my health improved dramatically and I went from 14% body fat to 9% body fat by giving up processed foods. That was after had been training and riding 8-10 hours a week for about a year and didn't not change my training--I only changed my diet and changed it to "get healthier" as opposed to lose weight.

These days, I would never sit down and eat a big plate of pasta or a piece of pizza. I literally feel sick with that stuff now. 

Good luck. You will be shocked at how your body will transform if you follow that advice.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Sounds like you're doing everything right. I was stuck at a weight, too, for many years, but wanted to drop that last 5-10 lbs to be a bit more lean and competetive. I just ate less. Yes, I was hungry for a while (like you, I was eating mostly the "right stuff"). It sucks at 1st, but after a while you acclamate to it and you aren't as hungry. Or, you can ramp up the training or a combo of the both of them. Sounds too simple but if you burn more calories than you take in, you lose weight. It's not rocket science.


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## miragev (Jan 14, 2011)

two or three people recommended giving up processed foods ...are we talking everything here ..? yogurts museli bars breakfast cereals and the like i take it you mean anything out of a packet or box....and what do you guys eat everyday ..?


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## Boosted333 (Mar 31, 2011)

If you feel that pasta plays a part here, try alternatives like brown rice pasta... We serve it to people and they can't tell the difference. 

In regards to less processed foods: Cereal - for example... I still eat it, since I love it... I just try to get something "healthier" with less ingredients, and especially less ingredients that sound like they belong in a NASA space shuttle experiment. I still have a few Kashi frozen meals in the freezer, just in case I am on the run and don't have any home-made leftovers (which is generally what I eat for lunch every day). The Kashi meals in my opinion are a lot healthier than the Weight Watchers or Lean Cusine meals that we used to keep for those quick lunches. Yogurts - Chobani... love them, supposedly very good for you... and again with the ingredients, I dont read a ton of junk like aspartame and corn syrup like some other yogurts may have.

Just try to make healthier/smarter food choices is all I'm saying. :thumbsup:


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

z3phrn said:


> Biggest single point of advice: Why fruit? It's sugar + water. You don't really need it. Take a multivitamin, eat green and red veggies, forget about fruit.


Fruit is sugar + water + fiber
Veggies are sugar + water + fiber

Just FYI and all.

More fiber in veggies. Less sugar. Fiber is in the same ballpark give the veg/fruit.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

miragev said:


> two or three people recommended giving up processed foods ...are we talking everything here ..? yogurts museli bars breakfast cereals and the like i take it you mean anything out of a packet or box....and what do you guys eat everyday ..?


Think of it this way--the more steps that are necessary to get the food the way it is when you eat it--compared to its natural state--the higher its level of processing. 

A banana, an apple, an orange? No processing.

A steak or piece of fish? No processing, other than getting the meat from the animal.

Whole wheat flour? There is a whole lot of processing to break it down so we can eat it. You can't even eat wheat in its purely natural state. Processing is required for us to be able to digest it. 

White flour? Lots more processing than even whole wheat. You are only getting a small fraction of the wheat plant in there.

Remember that with wheat and most other grain products, you not only have the processing to break it down into something we eat, you also have the stuff they add to it (i.e. sugar and chemicals) to make it palatable. Read the ingredients for a loaf of bread and you'll be shocked. I could only find one brand in the grocery store that did not have a bunch of added junk and they only carried a small amount of it (probably because most people don't buy it).

Rice, particularly brown rice, is a little different and is treated differently by many dietary authors. I think brown rice is basically the way you find it in nature. The "processing" of brown rice is somewhat comparable to the processing of meat--you just get the rice from a bigger part of the rice plant (or whatever it is) without breaking the portion you eat down further. 

One thing of importance with fruit is that you are getting a small amount of sugar, which has to be digested with fiber, when compared to sugar added to foods such as soft drinks, bread, buns, etc. There is a big difference between chewing on a stalk of sugar cane and drinking a soft drink with corn syrup. 

I read a lot about health, diet, and nutrition and find this stuff very interesting. Lots of people have their own ideas and different takes on things, but it seems to me some ideas are consistent and generally accepted. Eliminating processed foods and eating lots of fruits and vegetables is pretty much universal advice. And I think very good advice, based on what make sense and based on my own experiences. Some folks differ on meat, particularly how much to eat, but they all pretty much agree to that the meat you eat should lean meat without hormones, antibiotics, etc.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

To further answer your question, I don't think it is possible to give up all processed foods. But you can some pretty close. And the more you eliminate the better. Less processing = greater health in my humble opinion even though you can't realistically avoid all processed foods.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I'd recommend getting a copy of Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald. It's a good, sensible approach to getting lean for athletic performance. The main advice I'd have is to eat intentionally - while the kinds of foods is important, the bottom line is balancing calories in with calories out. You want to be in caloric deficit, but not so much that you lack energy to exercise or get sick. It's exceptionally easy to sneak in 400 calories without much thinking (thereby undoing caloric deficit) by eating unplanned foods. You need to monitor your diet and plan what you eat.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> I'd recommend getting a copy of Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald. It's a good, sensible approach to getting lean for athletic performance. The main advice I'd have is to eat intentionally - while the kinds of foods is important, the bottom line is balancing calories in with calories out. You want to be in caloric deficit, but not so much that you lack energy to exercise or get sick. It's exceptionally easy to sneak in 400 calories without much thinking (thereby undoing caloric deficit) by eating unplanned foods. You need to monitor your diet and plan what you eat.


Bam! We have a winner.


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## RayfromTX (May 18, 2011)

Yes, you can avoid all processed foods. Eat clean and count calories. I dropped 60 pounds and got my body fat to under 10%. That was before I started riding very much. Now the struggle is to get enough calories without resorting to ice cream or some other type of calorie dense junkish food.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

eat, ride, sleep (wait).


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## Undecided (Apr 2, 2007)

RayfromTX said:


> Yes, you can avoid all processed foods. Eat clean and count calories. I dropped 60 pounds and got my body fat to under 10%. That was before I started riding very much. Now the struggle is to get enough calories without resorting to ice cream or some other type of calorie dense junkish food.


If you need the calories on top of a sufficient quantity of the macro nutrients, vitamins and minerals, why do you need to avoid those foods?


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

jsedlak said:


> eat, ride, sleep (wait).


Eat, ride, sleep, REPEAT OVER and OVER, wait. And don't eat desserts. . .


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## Roadone (Jun 18, 2011)

Would anyone have a good diet program to follow for riders drop pounds and still maintain energy? Like a schedule of what foods how much and how often throughout the day.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Measuring string?*



Roadone said:


> Would anyone have a good diet program to follow for riders drop pounds and still maintain energy? Like a schedule of what foods how much and how often throughout the day.


Your question is about like asking "How long is a piece of string?"

Wouldn't that depend hugely on how much exercise you were getting? Dropping pounds is purely about eating less for a given amount of exercise, or exercising more for a given calorie intake. We can't possibly know what your level of either one is. If you want to lose weight, you will need to be hungry during the day - it's your body's message that you're in calorie deficit.

Beyond that, there is no real reason to eat any particular kind of food more or less at any given point in the day except that most people don't do well if they eat a large, high-fat, high protein meal just before the start vigorous exercise.

Diet guidelines are a maximum of 0.7-0.8 gm protein per day per lb. of body weight (1.5-1.8 gm/kg), total dietary fat content of around 0.5 gm per lb. (1.1 gm/kg) per day, preferably fat from "good" sources like nuts & seeds, olive oil, fish, and lean meat/poultry. Get your dairy from things like low fat yogurt and cheeses. Stick with whole grains and raw veggies and fruit when possible. Keep lots of colors on your plate (carrots, peppers, tomatoes, squash, green stuff, beans, etc. rather than just potatoes). Minimize processed foods (eat the fruit rather than drink the fruit juice). Everything right out of an 8th grade "health and wellness" class.


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## RayfromTX (May 18, 2011)

Undecided said:


> If you need the calories on top of a sufficient quantity of the macro nutrients, vitamins and minerals, why do you need to avoid those foods?


Because it's not just about calories in and calories out. Sugars and simple carbs in abundance are not good for your liver and your pancreas. The insulin spikes are unhealthy and the fatty deposits that develop in your liver lead to metabolic syndrome
.***I am not a medical professional or researcher***
That is not to mention the effects of all the fillers and preservatives in the corn based processed junk that you find in the center of the grocery store. It is best to shop around the edges of the store where the less adulterated food resides. 

This is a complex issue that is not easily discussed in detail on an internet forum. One little piece at a time maybe but health and nutrition in the world in which we live is an obstacle course of marketing driven, corporation manufactured, foodlike products. I try to stay away from things resembling purina people chow. These include and are certainly not limited to pop tarts, chips, cheerios, ding dongs, bugles, candy bars, donuts, etc, ad nauseum. Justifying why one should avoid such things when trying to get enough calories to support athletic activities isn't something I have a lot of energy for right now. 

I will share a before and after of me. The before is last July when I ate kind of healthy but thought some junk was ok and I ate for pleasure. The after is the morning I turned 50 this 
April after 8 months of not eating junk food at all and eating for fuel in the amounts needed and at a deficit to lose weight. 

I will say that I was not hungry during this time. I ate a balanced diet of lean meat, low fat dairy, complex carbs and lots of fruits and vegetables. I ate oatmeal almost every morning and saved lots of calories for dinner so I was full in the evening hours. This worked very well for me. I logged my food daily using myfitnesspal on my iphone. Many of my friends have had success with this method after first seeing it work for me. Y'all have a pleasant evening.

Sorry, my photobucket account is acting up but this link sort of works.

https://photos2.mfpassets.com/images/photos/638/501/1638501_1032.jpg


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## Roadone (Jun 18, 2011)

I just know there are good nutrition programs/diets out there that helps keep you going. And if anyone might have used one or came up with one they had good success with and would like to share. I don't have one obviously but I do know some foods work better together to help with energy levels and stamina as well as weight loss. Just like today I had some white corn for lunch and about after thirty minutes I was very tired. This happened to me one other time, so I'm going to "X" out corn for me. Also I believe we need to eat at least 4-6 times a day to maintain good weight and metabolic levels. Another problem I'm trying to work on.

Anyways just asking....


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## Oasisbill (Jan 15, 2011)

Read "Sweet Poison" by David Gillespie. Here's an podcast interview with him you can download:
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/06/10/3241046.htm?site=conversations


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## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*gearing*



GeoKrpan said:


> On a geared bike you have to force yourself to ride harder. On an SS you ARE forced to ride harder.


If the SS is geared too low, you can spend a lot of time spinning without putting out much power, and you still can coast. Want to work hard -- get a fixed and gear it tall. Versus a SS, you'll have to keep busy on descents, too.


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

eat less, exercise more.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Roadone said:


> Would anyone have a good diet program to follow for riders drop pounds and still maintain energy? Like a schedule of what foods how much and how often throughout the day.


6' 2"
240lbs 25 Feb 2009. 
179lbs as of 27 Jun 2011.
I try to average 150-200 miles a week.

I eat a lot of fruit. Green apples, bananas, fruit salad etc. Then carb sources like fig newtons, pretzels, bagels etc. I'll only take in protein (except milk in my coffee) for dinner.

On average my day might look like this:
5:00 - poptarts + coffee (breakfast of champions, i know)
7:00 - a few pretzels as I head out the door
9:00 - pringles (small carton) + some fig newtons
11:00 - pringles (small carton) + some fig newtons
12:30 - green apple + caffeine (coca cola or tea)
2:00 - green apple #2
4:00 - banana
5:30 - fruit salad (small portion before ride) w/ pineapples, apples, peaches, strawberries, etc
8:00 - dinner (protein source, carb source, etc)

I won't claim it is the healthiest diet, but it is working. I'm dropping weight and not losing power. I don't really eat deserts or junk food and almost never go to fast food places. I do make pizza on fridays, and will sometimes get a big sub on the weekend after a hard ride. Sometimes I'll swap the pringles or fig newtons out with something salty like triscuts. 

HTH

:thumbsup:


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## Roadone (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks much for sharing jsedlak !!!


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## MattSoutherden (Jun 24, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> The main advice I'd have is to eat intentionally - while the kinds of foods is important, the bottom line is balancing calories in with calories out. You want to be in caloric deficit, but not so much that you lack energy to exercise or get sick.


Agreed - But.

Say 2 people each need 5000 per day. 1 gets it all from lean meat, rice, pasta, and fresh veg. The other from McDonalds and profiteroles. After a few months, they might look quite similar, but their performance on the bike in a stage race would differ quite a lot. (eliminating other factors such as natural talent/genetics, etc)


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## z3phrn (Mar 19, 2011)

MattSoutherden said:


> Agreed - But.
> 
> Say 2 people each need 5000 per day. 1 gets it all from lean meat, rice, pasta, and fresh veg. The other from McDonalds and profiteroles. After a few months, they might look quite similar, but their performance on the bike in a stage race would differ quite a lot. (eliminating other factors such as natural talent/genetics, etc)


It's much more than performance. Your body has a unique profile for how much of each nutrient it will absorb for peak performance. Feeding it the same calories from different food groups will have a drastically different result on your body.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

MattSoutherden said:


> Agreed - But.
> 
> Say 2 people each need 5000 per day. 1 gets it all from lean meat, rice, pasta, and fresh veg. The other from McDonalds and profiteroles. After a few months, they might look quite similar, but their performance on the bike in a stage race would differ quite a lot. (eliminating other factors such as natural talent/genetics, etc)


The biggest gain on the bike you're likely to see from doing diet X, when you were previously doing diet Y and eating the same amount of calories, is the placebo effect. And I always smile when someone upgrades something on their bike then sets a huge PR the next day... whatever motivates you!


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

Cableguy said:


> The biggest gain on the bike you're likely to see from doing diet X, when you were previously doing diet Y and eating the same amount of calories, is the *placebo effect*. And I always smile when someone upgrades something on their bike then sets a huge PR the next day... whatever motivates you!


Claiming with certainty that a 'clean diet' will trump a 'dirty diet' in performance is oversimplfying the situation. 

There are many factors to consider. But overall, if they were to be compared in energy balance, matched for macro nutrients and with the 'dirty diet' supplemented with a good multi, the difference in performance between the two diets would likely be relatively small.

Now, with that being said, there are dietary strategies within your diet that can increase performance and recovery. 

1. Adequate protein and leucine content
2. Maximizing glycogen synthesis post exercsie
3. Energy balance over time to maximize power to weight
4. Macro-nutrient considerations to optimize the above. 

IF these two diets (dirty vs. clean) were designed to be matched for the above there would be no difference in performance or body comp. (other than the potential placebo effect)

BUT.....the 'dirty diet' will be harder to match or (or select in the real world without nutritional knowledge) to the optimally designed 'clean diet'.

The bottom line is that a 'dirty diet' can yeild optimal results if it meets the above criteria. It will just be much harder to do.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

I lost about 8 lbs in the first 10 days I stopped eating fast food lunches at work. Im 5'9 and was 162lbs, went below 155lbs just by cutting that crap out daily. Now Im 148ish, feeling great, riding strong and while I do eat deserts and have the occasional beer, I find that moderation is working well for me. I have kept the weight off during the winter when I may hit the trainer 1/wk.

But I am hungry most of the time!


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

biobanker said:


> But I am hungry most of the time!


Ah yes, the life of us pro amateurs


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> 6' 2"
> 240lbs 25 Feb 2009.
> 179lbs as of 27 Jun 2011.
> I try to average 150-200 miles a week.
> ...


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## bradXism (May 10, 2011)

I would agree with most of the diet advise. Salts intake and precessed foods mess with the salt levels in your body. We really are a big bag of salt water. Not to step on toes, but I don't agree with the SS speed advise (I do ride one). Theres a reason cyclist spin and thats not to strain tendons or irritate bursa. this is very important somewhere over 30.
Prossesing uses most additives to get it thru the process or keep it from degrading on the shelf. Many diet testimonials, "I lost 5 lbs the first week" are water loss from discontinuing these intakes or placebo just from starting a new program.
The advise on intake first mentioned is somewhat sound but you can get too much water loss over time. I don't do my post-workout water intake in one sitting but pound down a glass or two over an hour or so. I drink enough to be urinating clear. This is different if you are taking vitamins. Then I would drink till I am going frequently.
I hope this makes sense and helps.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Of course the rapid weight loss (including my own after xing fast food) is from ditching water, but weight is weight. Easiest way to lower water retention is to drink it frequently, and cut out salt and processed foods.


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## bradXism (May 10, 2011)

I very much agree with Biobanker, who I am suspect from his name, knows his biology., has a good point. Fast food is loaded with salt and body fat retains water. Thats why its jiggly. Muscle has some interstitial fat, that referred to as 'marbleing', in beef cuts and salts make this more so. This is why there are differences in 'dunk' method and skin calipers for body fat % The lower the fat the less water and adding water will over time reduce the salt. As I mentioned we are a big bag of salt water and thats a very big bag with a large amount of salt in it. It does take a good amount of time to change that balance.
This is too much info, I used to teach and tend to rant about 'Fad' diets. As almost all the previous said,reduce the calories, increase the sensible exercise and get rid of salts as much as possible.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

While it is is now clear that a calorie isn't a calorie and that avoiding a lot of fructose is a great benefit to health, I've never been interested in totally changing my diet. I eat all kinds of "unhealthy" foods - store bought crap, sugary drinks, lots of bread, white rice, pasta, etc. Since I don't eat much meat, I drink protein - whey protein shakes and also milk daily.

But I am 6'0" 145lbs and sub 10% body fat. The key for me was not type of food - it was portion control and exercise. I do some body weight exercises in my work gym (leg lifts, dips, back extensions, etc.) and some squats (heavy weigh, low reps) and that really sculpted my upper body more. And then the key ingredient: I run. 

I love cycling, but it sucks for fitness for me because it just takes way more time than I have in my life. I can dress, run 10k, shower in 1 hour and be done with it. To get the same "benefit" on the bike, it tends to be a four hour block of time (including messing with the bike, the clothes, etc.). I also get huge benefits out of 15-20 minutes in the work gym - low rep-heavy weight squats and press, ab exercises, dips, etc.

So if anyone out there is stable on their weight and just wants to burn fat and look/feel better, I suggest running every day after work.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

pacificaslim said:


> While it is is now clear that a calorie isn't a calorie and that avoiding a lot of fructose is a great benefit to health, .


That is a fallacy. A calorie is still, and will always be, a calorie. It is a unit of measurement. 

More specifically, the amount of energy a chemical (food) provides is how much energy (ATP) it produces. That does not change (per se). 

Different foods provide differing amounts of AVAILABLE energy to the body. The tpycial 4,4, and 9 kcal/gram that appear on the food labels are average ESTIMATES. The actual caloric amount of AVAIALBLE energy is not always what the label says. But the energy that they actually provide is the pre-set. 

In the context of what I believe you (and many other mean) when they say that "a calorie is not a calorie" is that foods have differening effects on metabolism (general) and body comp during positive enenergy balance and negative energy balance. And that some foods make it easier to over-eat energy leading to positive energy balance and weight gain or no weight loss. 

I can't say enough that ENERGY BALANCE is the primary driving factor in the HEALTH or "UN-HEALTHY" aspect of foods. 

Fructose added to glucose during endurance exercise for long durations (2h+ at 75%) is not only not unhealthy, it improves carbohydrate uptake and performance. 

Fructose ingested by a sed in chronic positive energy balance leads to unhealthy side effects due to full liver and skeletal muscle glycgoen content. Fructose is converted to fat (in many cases in these individuals). They have very little need for many carbohydates, let alone any fructose.

But for healhty individuals who move a decent amount of liver and muscle glycogen on a regular basis, a moderate dose of fructose is not un-healthy. High doses (high is dependant on energy/caloric needs) can still have some negative outcomes, as the liver has to process frucose and it is not metabolized in the peripheral tissues before being converted to lactate, fat, or anthother substrate.

Its all about balance (in your diet and energy status) and getting adequate physical activity.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

sdeeer said:


> That is a fallacy. A calorie is still, and will always be, a calorie. It is a unit of measurement.
> 
> More specifically, the amount of energy a chemical (food) provides is how much energy (ATP) it produces. That does not change (per se).


You know, that was a good, informative post. But you didn't need to set up some sort of false opposition by pretending to disagree with my sentence "a calorie is not a calorie." (and then proceeding to totally agree with its real meaning).

You know exactly what I meant because you went on to describe it. Sure, a calorie burned in a lab is a calorie burned - but it's clear that calories of different composition are metabolized by the human body in different ways and may or may not be used as energy in the way that the eater wants, at the time he wants, and will not have the same overall effect on his body, especially if his goal is to "get lean" (the topic of this thread). As you describe very well.

If anyone out there is unfamiliar with this concept sdeeer and I have mentioned, Dr. Lustig gives a good overview in his widely seen youtube presentation on sugar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM


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## bradXism (May 10, 2011)

Great we have discussed weight loss fluid retention and salt and fat vs caarb vs protein intake, Wgt loss per calorie. The other part of that 'lean look' is high definition with low bulk. I am not sure about that but I think that would be high reps low resistantce.


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## pacificaslim (Sep 10, 2008)

It's generally believed that weigh you can only lift for 1-5 reps builds strength/power, weight you can do 6-12 reps builds size of muscles, and lighter weights you can do many reps on builds muscular endurance (without significantly altering size).

In short, muscles are made up of fibers (myofibrils) and the stuff around them (sacroplasm) that contains your mitochondria and fuel. If you move heavier weight you will increase the fibers and get stronger but only a little bigger. If you move lighter weights you can do 8-12 reps you'll increase the sacroplasm and the muscles will look a lot bigger (but not be too much stronger).

Cycling and running both involve very high reps of not much weight and so build muscular endurance without significantly building size of muscle. But that activity burns fat so does produce a leaner look as muscle that was hidden beneath fat becomes visible.


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## bradXism (May 10, 2011)

*sarcocasm*

I do believe from my limited observation of weight rooms that there is mitochondria but its sarcocasm that has a greater influence. By standing around in the weight room talking your ego, taunts and jibes become bigger.


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## izzyfly (Jul 10, 2009)

*Yes, some running..*

I've been into cycling for many years now, and have just taken up running. It's just amazing how much more energy this activity takes up. I try to up the intensity by actually running uphill. There's a hill near where I live which I train for hill intervals on the bike. Lately, I've been lacing up the running shoes, and..talk about a workout, running up the hill took so much more, without the benefit of a complex machine, namely a lightweight roadbike. Of course having the right pair of running shoes, etc, but this gets a good workout done within an hour, and for me that includes doing a 15-minute core work (at home after the 40-minute run) with the kettle bells. I still cycle about 3x a week. On the running part, on the downhill, I do ease up, and don't run downhill so as not to put too much gravity-enhanced weight on my knees.


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## bradXism (May 10, 2011)

As some have stated before, for us who have to get the monkey off our back. With runnind you can put on your shoes and go out and pound yourself for even as little as 30 mins. Pretty much anywhere ( maybe not Compton). Thats my warm up on a bike.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

Oxtox said:


> I feel ill just reading about this diet. poptarts, pretzels, pringles (?), triscuits...ummmm, what do you consider 'junk food'? an apple and a coke for lunch...uh, no. I'd be dead in three days eating this way.


You and me both!

But it works...

I'm open to suggestions for healthy replacements... essentially I'm looking for easy to burn carb sources.


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## dkilburn (Aug 1, 2009)

I found that cutting your intake to near your weigh goal helped me. I was over 200+ and dropped about 35 lbs and have keep it off for about a year. I try to eat about 1600 calories a day. My work changed this spring and I'm riding near 100 miles a week. I did start drinking more water but not 1/2 my body weight, I try try this. Most all junk food is gone, But I sure like desert and I have most of that out. 

If your weight goal is 150, then cut your calories to about 1500, it just takes time.


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## V3T (May 19, 2011)

Eat salad after a ride. Suprisingly, I found that eating enough salad made me feel really good. I would eat right before my ride, take in plenty of calories during, and eat salad post ride. I felt really good and recovered well doing this, and if you eat enough you won't feel hungry (some of it is likely to be mind over matter as well). Lots of nutrients and stuff in salad...


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

^ I like that idea. You can even add spinach and nuts for protein.


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## gpcyclist25 (Mar 22, 2011)

psycleridr said:


> I have been losing weight as am planning on doing an IM as well as just for overall health. At my heaviest i was 199 (am only 5'9 so yeah was a bit chubby). I have gotten down to about 172 over the past year through increased excercise and diet. Currently I seem to be stuck at this weight and can't get below it although I do know I could lose another 5-10 of fat without losing any power.
> So the question is how do you get lean? My last BF measurment was at 18% which corresponds with my current weight. Has anyone on here lost a lot of weight and gotten lean as well? what did you do?


I'm going to take the contrary position to most people here, who seem to be leaning more on diet than training.

To put it into context, in mid-2008 I was about 184, which was about 30 lbs more than my "normal" weight for most of the decade, and certainly heavy for my height, 5'7". I've been a gym guy for over 20 years, but basically due to a lot of stress, my gym habits and eating habits fell apart, leading to that gain over about 18 months or so. Getting older didn't help either. Bodyfat was probably around 25%.

Fast forward to today. Still 5'7, 3 years older, weight at 145, probably down to 143 or 142 by the end of August, bodyfat about 9%.

For me, the answer was a combination of more mileage and getting into the gym to lift 3x a week, about 90 mins each session. The mileage total is now up to 140 per week. You start counting the calories, and you're talking about 5000+ from the bike alone, if Polar is to be believed. Just as importantly, lifting adds lean muscle mass, which is the absolute best if not only way to increase your basal metabolic rate. Plus it looks good.

Fixing your diet obviously helps as well. And I certainly eat a lot healthier than I did when I was heavy. But I don't devote a lot of effort thinking about it. I probably devote more time thinking about making sure I eat enough than whether I'm eating too much. My point is that for me at least, it was easier and more satisfying to up my training time and calorie burn and essentially take the food calorie component out of the equation. It doesn't mean I eat carelessly, but I also have no qualms at all about going out to Five Guys for a double cheeseburger, especially after a long hard ride.

Obviously your mileage may vary. But I think the larger point is that it is essentially a math problem at the end of the day. You can choose to take in fewer calories, burn more calories, or some combination thereof. For me it was easier to burn more as well as increase BMR so I can eat what I want without guilt. And at this point, dropping weight for the rest of the season is not a question, its a certainty. And the heavier training also yields better athletic results as well, which is a nice plus.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

Update!
Not sure what I did but finally broke the barrier and am now at 165-168. I can't think of anything I did different other than what was already described. 
Thanks for all the suggestions as some were more helpful than others. 
My main goal was overall health and fitness which I now have, anything more is bonus! Unfortunately as much as I would love to increase exercise time it is just not possible. I have a max of 8hrs/week which does not mean I get it every week. Giving up alcohol and chocolate is a no go as I am not a pro nor will I ever be so I still want to enjoy some things in life. I guess it was just about finding a balance and persevering!


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## Taco Brown (Dec 1, 2010)

Great! Sometimes its just a matter of patience and perserverance. And you did it without giving up the things that make you happy.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

That's for sure! Can't imagine what I would do without wine and chocolate


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## V3T (May 19, 2011)

Fixed said:


> Want to work hard -- get a fixed and gear it tall. Versus a SS, you'll have to keep busy on descents, too.


Why dont you just gear a SS tall? Mine is geared 51/16, and I do rotate my pedals down descents...


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## ThePhenom (Jul 25, 2011)

Great information guys. Thank You


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## Vibe (Jan 11, 2011)

three years ago I was my heaviest at 188lbs at only 5'7". I went down from 188 to 175 by changing my diet a bit (giving up certain things) and going to the gym casually within a couple of months.

Went from 175 to 165 within another 3 months and hovered there for a while. I was stuck.

I changed my diet dramatically, had egg white omelettes with spinach for breakfast and salad lunches with wild card dinners (not too indulging).

Went from 165 to 150 which is where I'm at now. I'm stuck again so I've been increasing my riding.


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## Taco Brown (Dec 1, 2010)

> Obviously your mileage may vary. But I think the larger point is that it is essentially a math problem at the end of the day. You can choose to take in fewer calories, burn more calories, or some combination thereof. For me it was easier to burn more as well as increase BMR so I can eat what I want without guilt. And at this point, dropping weight for the rest of the season is not a question, its a certainty. And the heavier training also yields better athletic results as well, which is a nice plus.


In the end, all that matters is what works for you. I will say, however, that for the vast majority of people, tweaking the diet has a much bigger impact than increasing training. 

Also, sometimes it just takes sheer perseverence and patience, as our wine and chocolate connoseur found out. I dont claim to have any scientific knowledge about this, but it seems that the body often reverts to a baseline weight that it somehow "sees" as normal. In other words, the dreaded plateau. Its happened to me several times, where my weight just sat at a certain level for a month or so. And then wham, I'd lose 4-5 lbs.


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