# Please...Opinions on Motobecane Titanium...



## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

Been wanting a Ti frame for a while, but don't want to dump $4K into a bike. I have been hoping to find something race worthy for ~2K-2.5K (complete bike), but I have yet to find something that will fit (I'm 5'8, but really need a 525mm TT). Now this BD deal pops up with the Motobecane Le Champion Ti frame decked in a variety of builds and I'm tempted to jump on it.

A bit about me...
I currently ride a Cannondale CAAD8 frame (size 52cm...53.5cm TT), full carbon fork, ultegra/DA mix, K elites/Easton Circuits which I love. My current plans are to train on the Ti bike and race the Cannondale, but the Ti would probably see some race action too (RR). I'm a 28 yr old Cat4 rider and I enjoy fast group rides, crits, like to climb, and wish I could sprint better. More of a spinner than a masher.

My main questions about the Moto Le Champ Ti involve the ride characteristics and the quality of the frame. Most important to me is the *responsiveness* of the frame. I love the fact that when I step on the gas my Cannondale goes. No delay, no feeling of flex (I'm only 145-150 lbs) like I feel on my mid-80s bianchi steel fixie. Bottom line, I love the responsiveness of CAAD 8 and enjoy the lively ride. It is not harsh to me. I do not want a noodle of a bike.

Can anyone comment on the responsiveness and ride/build quality of the Motobecane Le Champ Ti? From what I've read the frame is 3/2.5v double butted and the fork is full carbon. How does the quality of the frameset compare to that of the various Litespeed models? Where is this thing made? I realize I'm not buying a state of the are custom 6/4 Ti frameset, but would I really notice the difference anyway? 

Others on the forum seem to like their carbon Motos and certainly the price they paid through BD. Bottom line: in 3 years, will I still love my Moto Ti after I've forgotten what I paid for it?

Thanks for any advice you can offer. I certainly will appreciate it.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

you could always go with Habanero if you wanted cheap ti-

http://www.habcycles.com/

Frames start at around 800 and it's only like 1100 for custom... And you'll avoid all the horrible name calling and flaming threads any mention of Motobecane seems to bring.


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*nice suggestion...*

I'll keep that in mind. I'd have to go custom as their smallest TT is 53.5cm. 

You suggestion begs the question...are these frames the same with different decals? FWIW, I'm taking decals OFF of a Ti frame anyway.


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## whateveronfire (Sep 27, 2005)

I'm interested in thoughts on this issue, too. My partner has been looking for a ti hardtail and the price in the special is very good.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

I don't think that BD/Moto has done any of these Ti frames before so there is no chance of getting any comments specifically about them.

However, Standard tube Ti has the reputation of being a little whippy/flexy. My Airborne Zeppelin is. That is not always a bad thing. I love my Zep. 

With no specific reviews I would tend to believe the the new Ti Moto frames would fall into the same generalaztion.

I could be wrong. Maybe if you address the issue of Stiffness directly to Mike he will replay as to what he was trying to achieve with the frames.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

marc180 said:


> I'll keep that in mind. I'd have to go custom as their smallest TT is 53.5cm.
> 
> You suggestion begs the question...are these frames the same with different decals? FWIW, I'm taking decals OFF of a Ti frame anyway.


The frames sold online are not the same as Motobecane uses
Ti Motobecane project is like the original CF project
the most expensive and respected maker in Taiwan is used; instead a lower cost option from China

Since the design is used for building complete bikes; there is no reason to try to save 20 or 25 percent by finding a lower cost frame maker.

The frame design for le Champion Ti models is for a quick smooth sport bike. Not designed to be an all out race bike. Stiff enough to be rather quick without beating your teeth out. {I know there are those that think there is a magic material that has zero energy loss and still rides smooth as silk; I do not and feel all designs are a matter of balance}

If you want a classic quick ride for long distances; which feels snappy with making you feel beat up -- I think the le Champion Ti could well be the ticket. And at our holiday deal - there will never be a better bargin on high grade Ti, that is my feeling.

Here is the 53cm design:


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*thanks mike...*

thanks for your input mike. I was hoping you'd chime in and should have specifically welcomed your input in my original post.

you stated "that the most expensive and respected maker in Taiwan is used". that's encouraging! do you know which other companies re-brand these *tai*wanese frames (pun intended) as their own? i ask because perhaps i could better gauge the feel of the Moto Le Champ Ti's ride by test riding, say a Litespeed ____ that is essentially the same frame. This may not be possible, but I thought I'd ask and hope I am not overstepping any ethical boundaries here.

lastly, please PM me the geometry for the smaller size (what's below a 53?). The 55 TT on that 53 will surely be too much for me. I've learned the hard way that 53.5 is my absolute max (w/ 90mm stem).


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## Poppadaddio (Apr 15, 2007)

*Looks Like a Compact*

With the sloping top tube, the design looks like a compact.
My experience with a Windsor Kennet is that I need to be on the very top end of the size range.
Would you please post a readable drawing of the biggest one? At least the critical dimensions, I don't need anything proprietary.
Thanks


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## midlife_xs's (Jun 18, 2004)

3/2.5 Ti may be made stiff or flexy depending on the design/geometry/manipulations of the tubes. You cannot test ride a Litespeed then expect the Motobecane Ti to be similar just because they are both 3/2.5 
Even Litespeed's diferent models with the same material don't ride the same. 

Anyway read on what Mike said...."_The frame design for le Champion Ti models is for a quick smooth sport bike. *Not designed to be an all out race bike*. Stiff enough to be rather quick without beating your teeth out."_


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

i completely agree that tubing AND geometry will both affect ride quality. same tubing with different geometry and/or manipulations won't ride the same.

this is why i am curious as to whether this frame is potentially rebadged by different dealers as different bikes when, in fact, they are one in the same.


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*also...*

I appreciate Mike's opinion/experience when he says, ."The frame design for le Champion Ti models is for a quick smooth sport bike. Not designed to be an all out race bike. Stiff enough to be rather quick without beating your teeth out."

HOWEVER, this is largely subjective and therefore...if the frame is rebadged by other dealers, then i can test ride the frame myself and see if it's too my liking. 

at that price, i hope it is


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## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

I believe what Mike is saying is that the frame is HIS design being made by the frame maker in Taiwan. Not using the frame that someone else designed.


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*curious...*

curious as to why this is being moved...is the bike/frames/forks now only reserved for discussing high-end custom jobs?

since this frameset is new I'd bet this thread won't get much action/viewing in the Moto-mercier forum.

thought i might get more input in a more general forum and more viewed forum


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## Bertrand (Feb 1, 2005)

Any pics of the frame available?


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

marc180 said:


> ....since this frameset is new I'd bet this thread won't get much action/viewing in the Moto-mercier forum.....


Since this frameset is new, no one is going to be able to answer your question. Mike seemed to do a pretty good job. Knowing that it is all subjective, even if there were people who already owned them you might not get a good answer.

You seemed a little obsessed with the question of this being a re-badged frame. Almost like you wish it was so that you could tell people "look at me, I got a litespeed at half the price".

I only mention it because I find it interesting. You present Mike with a great conundrum. On one hand he wants to provide a Quality product at a very low price. His add copy and marketing targets You.

However, he also seems as though he wants to bring some "respectability" to the Motobecane name. Unfortunately when you are dealing in the "luxury item" market, you can't have it both ways.

Regardless of quality, the market will choose "budget" or "prestige". I can't think of any product that does both.


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*actually...*

what i'd really like to do is go test ride the most comparable frameset and if i like it, then buy mike's Moto Ti!!!! If I'm guilty of anything it is taking advantage of an LBS with no intention to buy from them! Flame me for that if you are going to flame me.

This is a forum. The point is to ask Qs and/or discuss cycling related topics. I don' think I've done any more than ask a Q and hopefully discuss this frame so that I can be a more informed consumer.

Personally, I don't care what the name on the decal says. All I care about is that I ride a bike that I ride a bike that makes me enjoy getting out on the road. 

But...I appreciate you calling me out on simply trying to become more informed and potentially become a BD customer.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

marc180 said:


> what i'd really like to do is go test ride the most comparable frameset and if i like it, then buy mike's Moto Ti!!!! If I'm guilty of anything it is taking advantage of an LBS with no intention to buy from them! Flame me for that if you are going to flame me.
> 
> This is a forum. The point is to ask Qs and/or discuss cycling related topics. I don' think I've done any more than ask a Q and hopefully discuss this frame so that I can be a more informed consumer.
> 
> ...



Your Welcome.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

marc180 said:


> thanks for your input mike. I was hoping you'd chime in and should have specifically welcomed your input in my original post.
> 
> you stated "that the most expensive and respected maker in Taiwan is used". that's encouraging! do you know which other companies re-brand these *tai*wanese frames (pun intended) as their own? i ask because perhaps i could better gauge the feel of the Moto Le Champ Ti's ride by test riding, say a Litespeed ____ that is essentially the same frame. This may not be possible, but I thought I'd ask and hope I am not overstepping any ethical boundaries here.
> 
> lastly, please PM me the geometry for the smaller size (what's below a 53?). The 55 TT on that 53 will surely be too much for me. I've learned the hard way that 53.5 is my absolute max (w/ 90mm stem).



here is what I have on frame geo

ST - 47.7 - 51 - 53 - 56 - 59
TT - 520 - 527 - 538 - 561 - 578
EFF TT - 535 - 540 - 550 - 570 - 585
ST A - 74 - 74 - 73 - 73 - 73.5
HT A - 73 - 73 - 73 - 73 - 73.5
HT - 110 - 130 - 150 - 165 - 185
BB D - 68 - 70 - 70 - 70 - 70
WB - 975 -975 - 975 - 995 - 1015
SS - 405 - 405 - 405 - 405 - 410
SO - 28.7" - 29.9" - 30.6" - 31.7" - 33" 

FORK RAKE 45


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*sizing*

thanks mike. looks like that TT on the smallest size will still be to big for me. too bad because this is a great deal you are offering. best of luck.


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## sonex305 (Jun 17, 2007)

The 47 has a 52 TT. Effective of 53.5. I thought you said 53.5 is your max.


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*effective TT*

is 535mm. that would require me to use a 90mm stem which is what i have on one of my current rides. i also have a bike with a 525mm TT and a 100mm stem. i prefer to be just htat much further over my front wheel. the shift in my weight, forward, really makes a difference. to me, at least.


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## team_sheepshead (Jan 17, 2003)

marc180 said:


> what i'd really like to do is go test ride the most comparable frameset and if i like it, then buy mike's Moto Ti!!!! If I'm guilty of anything it is taking advantage of an LBS with no intention to buy from them! Flame me for that if you are going to flame me.


Good luck finding a rebadged bike you can test ride. I hope you find one. But then I guess you can forget about ever bringing your Motobecane into that store.

Or maybe check BD's return policy: "If for any reason you are not [satisfied], return it in original condition - new and packaged as you received within 30 days of the purchase date for a refund or exchange. All associated shipping costs, inbound and outbound, are the responsibility of the customer.... Returned items that arrive damaged, used or otherwise not as-new and original packaging are refunded on a pro-rated basis." 

So buy the BD bike. What you have you got to lose? If you don't like the ride, you are only out the time and money to assemble, disassemble and ship the bike back to BD. Then see how much of a pro-rated refund you'll get. 

Or do what the BD guys told me when I considered buying a bike from them. If you don't like the ride, sell the frame on eBay and keep the components...and you'll actually come out ahead! Good luck with your decision.


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## marc180 (Feb 2, 2006)

*good idea!*

hey, i'll give that some thought. 

first of all, i'm going to go ride some Ti bikes and see how I like the feel of Ti in tubing and geometry variations. then, i'll hopefully have a better idea of whether Ti is right for me.


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## bruin11 (May 21, 2004)

bikesdirect said:


> here is what I have on frame geo
> 
> ST - 47.7 - 51 - 53 - 56 - 59
> TT - 520 - 527 - 538 - 561 - 578
> ...


Mike

Are you positive about the 53.5 eff tt length for the 47.7 size frame. That is really stretched out for such a small frame. The litespeed geo eff tt was only 52.5


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## acckids (Jan 2, 2003)

$1398 is crazy. The compact designed looks great. The decals look great. Beautiful bike. Heck, I would buy the Motobecane for $1398 and then go down to my local bike shop and give him $250 cash to make amends and you would still end up great.


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