# My first ticket



## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Got pulled over this morning for blowing through a stop sign. :blush2: Allegedly. :aureola: It was a quiet, straight section, no traffic (just after peak rush hour) and plenty of room. The cops must know it's an easy intersection for bikers to ignore.

They asked if I had my license, and I stupidly handed it over. They would've accepted a photo ID, maybe I should've given them my work ID with my maiden name on it instead......grrrr. :mad2:

I was polite and compliant in hopes that it would count for something. Nope. Thought about pointing out the five dozen people parked in the bike lane along that same road, THOSE would be money in the bank wouldn't they? but I know better.

Not sure how much this is for- at least a hundred I guess, but they give a discount for pleading not guilty. Even the cop said so. 

Knew this would happen eventually. Still sucks.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

sorry to hear that...

I never carry ID when I ride...what do they do then? haul you in?


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

My license wasn't visible in my wallet when I opened it. But like a doofus, I reached behind my bike permit and pulled it out. "Oh here it is!" Damn I'm stupid.

They even asked if I had my license on me. I should've said, "Not while I'm riding." But I was a bit nervous that they *could* haul me in or something.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Oxtox said:


> I never carry ID when I ride...what do they do then? haul you in?


Me either.
I do believe you would be required to provide name, address, etc. Which they would then look up and verify you exist. You could try giving someone else's info. But they're going to pull up their drivers license info. Which includes height, weight, hair, & eye color. Better pretend to be someone who looks like you.
If you refuse to provide your info they'll haul you in until you can/will.


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## marc7654 (Jun 24, 2014)

Guess everyone knows about the Idaho Stop? Stop signs treated like Yield signs and Stop Lights are Stop treated like Stop Lights. Might be worth pleading if you actually go in to contest it.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

marc7654 said:


> Guess everyone knows about the Idaho Stop? Stop signs treated like Yield signs and Stop Lights are Stop treated like Stop Lights. Might be worth pleading if you actually go in to contest it.


Not worth pleading unless you live in Idaho or parts of Colorado. Per your link it's not legal anywhere else.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Always thought that stop lights can be treated like stop signs by cyclists. Hmmm.

This is a quiet intersection on a straight road with a bike lane. Must be a known place for cops to trap bikers easily. Harumph.

Now I'm checking for cops at every intersection.


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## marc7654 (Jun 24, 2014)

tlg said:


> Not worth pleading unless you live in Idaho or parts of Colorado. Per your link it's not legal anywhere else.


Not necessarily but probably. Our local municipality seams to abide by this rule. I've done the yield at a few stop signs in clear view of a patrol car and haven't yet been cited, knock on wood.

Part of the point of pleading the Idaho Stop is to question the existing law, if you are so bold. It's absolutely extra work and could lead to extra costs so I don't fault anyone for not doing it. However without questioning these kinds of laws they will never get changed. Another tack it to plead that the law is just there to bolster the coffers of the local government. This has worked as part of the strategy against red light cameras. 

Last is the lottery roll for a sympathetic judge that might accept a reasoned defense.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

If the cops weren't on bikes or horses, you should have made a run for it, through yards and small spaces they couldn't go.


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## marc7654 (Jun 24, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> If the cops weren't on bikes or horses, you should have made a run for it, through yards and small spaces they couldn't go.


That always works LOL. pssst..buzz.. 1 ADAM 12 "Watch for the guy on the orange bike wearing the green helmet. He comes through the intercession of 12th and Bradley about 8:15 most mornings"....


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

Christine said:


> ...I reached behind my bike permit ...


Your bike permit???


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

marc7654 said:


> Not necessarily but probably. Our local municipality seams to abide by this rule. I've done the yield at a few stop signs in clear view of a patrol car and haven't yet been cited, knock on wood.


That's not a municipality abiding by a law they don't have; it's just an individual cop using his discretion not to cite a violator who seems to be acting carefully, even if technically illegally.



> Part of the point of pleading the Idaho Stop is to question the existing law, if you are so bold. It's absolutely extra work and could lead to extra costs so I don't fault anyone for not doing it. However without questioning these kinds of laws they will never get changed. Another tack it to plead that the law is just there to bolster the coffers of the local government. This has worked as part of the strategy against red light cameras.


I don't know what you mean by "pleading" in this situation. Are you going to argue that the law is unenforceable because it seems unreasonable, as demonstrated by the fact that one sparsely-populated state and a few localities have a different law? Laws get changed by legislatures, unless a court finds that the law is unconstitutional, or beyond the authority of the enacting government, or in conflict with a superseding law. I don't see any of these operating here.



> Last is the lottery roll for a sympathetic judge that might accept a reasoned defense


You can always argue for leniency. "I'm not a simple scofflaw, your honor, and I'm not an unsafe rider. I admit I didn't fully stop, but I slowed enough to be sure it was safe and that I wouldn't interfer with anyone's right-of-way." It can't hurt to try, but it's not really a defense to the charge.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

When I was a grad student in the mid 1980s, I got a ticket for going through 2 red lights and a tunnel you weren't supposed to bike in. The Berkeley police absolutely delighted in this sort of thing. No amount of pleading, etc., would help. Fortunately, I didn't have a car or a CA drivers license at the time, so no insurance ding. Moving violations will count against your driver's record, so if at all possible, don't fork over identification, but also don't lie about your identity. That can get you in a whole lot of trouble.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Yikes, he said it wouldn't be points on my license, though, technically it's a moving violation.....


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## BikeRider (Aug 5, 2003)

I guess the advantage of not driving a car like I do is that I don't have to worry about what could happen to the insurance. I have previously read the book "Bicycling & the Law: Your Rights as a Cyclist" and in the book it states that you could argue the case that the red light wasn't working properly if it didn't register that you were there - like most red lights don't for cyclists. Of course if the cop saw you just blow through the intersection this wouldn't work. It would also take a sympathetic judge even if you did stop and wait for a while.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Amazing how many responses consider LYING about not having a driver's license on hand. Perhaps it shows your true character.

Don't even try to give a false name, etc. because when the officer pulls up your driver's license on his CAD computer, a photo will be included.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I completely understand not stopping. I do it every time I ride. I have enough of a view of the first intersection out of my neighborhood to be able to time my crossing by adjusting my speed. I never stop, and I seriously doubt around here I would get nailed even if seen doing so by an LEO. But that's the chance I take, and I am well aware of it. IMO it's a low risk probability of being ticketed, so I take it. If I do get cited, it's my error.

Bottom line is you screwed up and got nailed this time. There's no legitimate defense. If there's an option to pay a fine rather than go to court, I'd just pay it and then rethink that risk assessment. 

BTW, where I live in TX we have another option called deferred adjudication. You pay a fine + fee, keep your nose clean for a specified time (usually 30-90 days), and the citation is vacated. There's no record anywhere. It's kind of like formal payoff to keep your record clean and minimize the burden on the court dockets for trivial traffic stuff.


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## 768Q (Jun 23, 2012)

Peter P. said:


> Amazing how many responses consider LYING about not having a driver's license on hand. Perhaps it shows your true character.
> 
> Don't even try to give a false name, etc. because when the officer pulls up your driver's license on his CAD computer, a photo will be included.


Exactly what I was thinking, why not just stop or at least California stop? LOL


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

On the way home tonight, I wanted to check out the scene of the alleged crime, b/c I don't really remember even seeing the stop sign (didn't want to admit that out loud; makes me sound like a maniac.) 

I honestly wasn't even sure why I was pulled over and asked the cops. "You blew through the stop sign at 63rd Street." So I rode onto the avenue and looked for 63rd Street..... there was no stop sign there. Did he think I rode up 63rd, blew through THAT sign, and then make a right onto the avenue? This bugged me as I rode home, being oh-so-careful to stop at every red light (there are loads).......check for cops, then ride through. Maybe it was one of those pop-up signs that are folded down except for school hours? Hmmm......

Came home and checked the googles, where there isn't even a 63rd Street on the map  WTF. They were parked at 60th St, so maybe that's what he actually said- there's a sign at that intersection. 

That stretch of bike lane, from start to finish, is 55 blocks long. There are probably at least 40 traffic lights before getting to the end with the quieter streets and stop signs.

No sense in lying to cops, they've been there/done that, plus all it could do is enrage them. Gotta save the argument for the courts. I do fairly well getting out of parking tickets, some of which are awfully unfair- it's just a game.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

If he said you missed the stop @ 63 on the ticket, just street google it, print out the picture of the road with no stop sign & take it to the judge. His mess up.

Alternative Option: Just start sobbing & balling! ... woops


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

First ticket on a bike? Or first ticket of any kind?
One of my staff - who's about fifty - told me he never got a ticket of any kind. And he drives a little bit like a maniac, and averages about 15-20k per year. Pretty amazing.
In California, my ticket on a bicycle (for blowing thru a stopsign) counted as a moving violation, but they let me take traffic school to expunge the ticket from my record.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

I got pulled over in Fort Lee, NJ for rolling through a red light on my way to 9W (Christine will know she's relatively local). I didn't have an ID on me and told him so. He asked for name, which I gave him and which he did run. Before asking for ID he asked whether I was a local resident, which he confirmed with the ID query.

He let me go with a warning, said they were dispatched to crack down on the masses of bikers coming in from NYC and passing through Ft. Lee on their way north. No other tickets for me, but I do hear stories of Strava buddies getting busted in Manhattan all the time.


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## Steve B. (Jun 26, 2004)

Check the details as written on the ticket. Possibly the cop wrote it up wrong. Then it should be an instant dismissal.

AS BTW, there was a news item a few days ago that NYC was yet AGAIN cracking down on bad cycling behavior, so heads up that a lot of dumb assed cops are out there meeting the quota.

And as another BTW, NYC cops - as in the actual NYPD officers, will not, no way, no how, write a parking ticket. I'm no longer sure they know how or understand that they have the power to do so. As far as I can see they assume it's the job of Parking Enforcement and leave it to them. So informing an NYPD officer of cars parked and blocking the bike lane will not generate a response. Hell, it's as likely that one of the cars is an un-marked. I think you need to call 311 for that. No kidding.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Definitely not my first ticket *ever,* just a first on the bike. Have always managed to avoid the bike-ticket-blitzes, wasn't aware this one was in effect!

9W is a notorious trap, great way to get some NYC money into NJ! They're just awful, I'm rarely up that way so it hasn't been a problem. But I used to do lots of laps in Central Park, surprised I was never pulled over in there......well, once I got reprimanded for riding my mtb up some schist (one of those big rocks), but no ticket.

Once got off a parking ticket due to a grammatical error. I had parked at a bus stop so I could run into the store for _just_ a minute. 

The ticket said I was parked "across from 123 Main St." But across the street were perfectly good parking spots, with meters and all. I pointed out that the ticket said I was perfectly legally parked, so I failed to understand the problem. :aureola:

But there are times I got nabbed after the city switched the signs around, or a marking was obscured, so it all evens out.

EDIT: Looked at ticket, it says 60th St. No technical glitches that I've noticed, they even got the model and color of my bike correct  Bah.


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## TheManShow (Jun 9, 2015)

SPlKE said:


> If the cops weren't on bikes or horses, you should have made a run for it, through yards and small spaces they couldn't go.



Really not in 2015, as I am sure the Cops would not be happy. Had you run, and been caught lefts see, you turned a simple ticket into a Felony Charge.

Now you get your picture taken, finger printed, maybe stripped searched.

Now come the fun part. You get put in a cage with maybe a murder suspect, or some person high on drugs.

Now you call friends, family, or a bondsmen to get byou out of jail.

Next you sweat out if the DA will actually take you to trail, but you better hire an lawyer to protect your right.

This was not a good expierence. BTW if you get convicted of a felony, what have you losts. Can't vote, can't own a gun, can't get a great job, but you can get a job where you say all day. "may I have your order" maybe.

RUNNING WAS NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA IMHO.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

TheManShow said:


> Really not in 2015, as I am sure the Cops would not be happy. Had you run, and been caught lefts see, you turned a simple ticket into a Felony Charge.
> 
> Now you get your picture taken, finger printed, maybe stripped searched.
> 
> ...


You can't live your life in fear of John Law.


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## TheManShow (Jun 9, 2015)

SPlKE said:


> You can't live your life in fear of John Law.



Having been inside many County Jails, and State Prisons as a guest because my work took me there. I have no desire to be a visitor, when the in keeps decides weather I am free to leave or not. JMHO


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## PdxMark (Feb 3, 2004)

I got a failure to stop (on my bike) ticket dismissed because the officer wrote the wrong intersection on the ticket. There is no stop sign at the listed intersection. (He was off by a block. I did run the actual stop sign, but the officer wrote up an intersection without a stop sign.) 

My case came up and the officer pipes up: "I'd like to amend the citation because it might have an error." The judge said it was too late for that. Then I got up, with photos of the listed intersection, asked to call the officer to ask him where I was riding, what direction etc. The judge asked, "are you going to argue that there's no stop sign at that intersection?" I said yes. He said - no need - case dismissed.

With that lesson in mind, I am now very well-behaved at intersections cops like to watch for cyclists. Even though a foot down is not required in making a stop, I plant my foot for a full second before proceeding. This particular stop sign is on a busy bike route, so I signal my stop so that a cyclist behind me doesn't run into me.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

TheManShow said:


> Having been inside many County Jails, and State Prisons as a guest because my work took me there. I have no desire to be a visitor, when the in keeps decides weather I am free to leave or not. JMHO


Actually, I'm just goofing around in here.

I stop at stop signs and lights if there are any other vehicles around within sight of the intersections. If there are no other vehicles in sight anywhere, I proceed cautiously. 

If a cop did stop me, although I don't carry my drivers license, I can give them my 8-digit PA drivers ID number. Numbers like that stick in my head, so I can give it to cops so they can look it up and see my picture and info on their screen.

If they ask, I'll even pepper spray myself then tase myself.

That's the kind of outlaw I am (i.e. not much of an outlaw).


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

TheManShow said:


> Having been inside many County Jails, and State Prisons as a guest ...


So that's what they call it now when you're in lockup detention-- _a guest_. That sounds so much more civil than perp.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm going to skip an explanation of when you have to identify yourself in general and just stick to one key point associated with you experience. Bicyclist should generally not give them a driver's license as a source of ID. Although it may vary by state what happens if you give them a driver's license is that running a stop sign gets reported to your state's department of Motor Vehicles and going by the violation AND seeing the driver's license you are likely going to get a running a stop sign violation on you MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVERS RECORD---you know as if you were driving a car. You can imagine the impact this can have on you through insurance and accumulated points of driver's licenses. 

The above is a common miscarriage of justice. Did you run a stop light? Yes. Is that a traffic violation? Yes. But...it has nothing to do with your driver's license, (or shouldn't), nor your motor vehicle driving record. 

You are guilty of committing a traffic violation, not of committing a motor vehicle violation while driving a vehicle that requires a legal driver's license to operate.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

That makes sense, as running a stop light/sign on a bike doesn't have the same potential consequences as in a car.

Guess I'll give them my work ID from now on.

Forgot to mention earlier: The bike permit is for the railroad. So when I take the bike on the train, gotta make sure I got my bike permit, work ID, train ticket, and MetroCard. Oh yeah, and parking stickers are needed on the bikes.


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## Neolithic (Mar 24, 2015)

No issues for me (yet) but my dad did get a speeding ticket on his bike once.

There's a 15 mph zone around a lake because ducks, geese, etc. cross the street between a park and the lake. My dad kept his usual pace that's around 20 mph. A cop pulled him over and wrote a ticket. While the paperwork, etc. was being handled a lot of drivers heckled the cop for stopping "real criminals". .

My dad went to court and pleaded no contest. The judge thew it out.

I would argue going the same route for your ticket. Plead no contest (don't plead not guilty, because you aren't, and the judge may not like that) and explain to the judge that you know you were technically breaking the law but you were not a danger to yourself nor impacting other traffic, and while the Idaho Stop isn't in effect in your location it is an indication that many communities feel your action shouldn't be considered illegal. And then hope for a sympathetic judge.

As for not handing over your license: here in Nevada, if you aren't driving cops can not require you to give them your drivers license. If they ask you can flat out refuse. You are required to give your name, though.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

GlobalGuy said:


> I'm going to skip an explanation of when you have to identify yourself in general and just stick to one key point associated with you experience. Bicyclist should generally not give them a driver's license as a source of ID. Although it may vary by state what happens if you give them a driver's license is that running a stop sign gets reported to your state's department of Motor Vehicles and going by the violation AND seeing the driver's license you are likely going to get a running a stop sign violation on you MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVERS RECORD---you know as if you were driving a car. You can imagine the impact this can have on you through insurance and accumulated points of driver's licenses.
> 
> The above is a common miscarriage of justice. Did you run a stop light? Yes. Is that a traffic violation? Yes. But...it has nothing to do with your driver's license, (or shouldn't), nor your motor vehicle driving record.
> 
> You are guilty of committing a traffic violation, not of committing a motor vehicle violation while driving a vehicle that requires a legal driver's license to operate.


Yep. 

The way I ride my bike has absolutely no bearing on the way I drive my car, and vice versa.

Putting points on a driver's motor vehicle record for a bicycling violation is unfair to bicyclists who have a motor vehicle license.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Christine, if you're still in NY, have statute 140.50 handy. This is the state's stop-and-identify law which states you're only required to identify yourself if you're being detained and if the LEO has declared which crime you're suspected of having committed. Technically, you are being detained if you get pulled over for a moving violation, but luckily you don't have to provide photo ID. The statute only requires you to give your name and address, and again this only applies to cyclists or pedestrians. Operating a motor vehicle obviously mandates photo ID. 

If it happens again, don't answer any questions even if they seem innocuous. Nothing you say will vindicate you in court. Just keep asserting your right to remain silent. It may aggravate the cop, but a pissed off cop with only his/her eyewitness testimony and no confessions from you is still just a pissed off cop, so you have a much better chance at fighting the ticket.


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## TheManShow (Jun 9, 2015)

ibericb said:


> So that's what they call it now when you're in lockup detention-- _a guest_. That sounds so much more civil than perp.


I use to go to the State Prision frequently as my work took me their, some of the correctional officers, (most hadted being called guards) use to refer to the inmates as guest of the state. Maybe because the "guests" had more right than a free person who was homeless on the street.

Right included, medical, dental, prescriptions, optical, three meals a day, so many shower a week. All right of being a guest.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

More helpful info, thanks! 

The ticket was finally processed and I pled "not guilty" online (don't recall a "no contest" option.) The hearing is scheduled for June 2016  Don't know if I'll get a reduction notice in the mail or what.

Glad I don't have to fork over all that info. Will keep that in mind. But I'm always afraid of aggravating a cop, feels vulnerable enough being a biker! I see them as having a job to do and they each have their own style, moods vary, they've got quotas etc. I try to be as nice as possible, though I do realize "nice" doesn't get one very far a lot of the time......


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Peter P. said:


> Amazing how many responses consider LYING about not having a driver's license on hand. Perhaps it shows your true character.
> 
> Don't even try to give a false name, etc. because when the officer pulls up your driver's license on his CAD computer, a photo will be included.


 Like the police always tell the truth!! Your logic is a little flawed. The police's job is to hang you up, not to be fair or be helpful!! Just because you have a license does not mandate that you show it to the officer. I've contested multiple tickets and often receive a reduced charge. If you have broken the law, you need to explain why your action was reasonable and did not endanger yourself and/or another person. Also, Before you go to court, do the research and understand the law that was cited on the ticket. Often the police will make a mistake-cite the wrong law. Be honest and respectful especially if you decide to question the officer in court. Good Luck


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

Didn't want to lie and make things more complicated for myself, but I'm all about exercising my rights if needed. Same with any other traffic ticket. They often get you by being unfair, so if it's legal to fight or refuse to give info, by all means no sense in becoming a scapegoat.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Christine said:


> Glad I don't have to fork over all that info. Will keep that in mind. But I'm always afraid of aggravating a cop, feels vulnerable enough being a biker! I see them as having a job to do and they each have their own style, moods vary, they've got quotas etc. I try to be as nice as possible, though I do realize "nice" doesn't get one very far a lot of the time......


Another reason to ride with a helmet camera. Generally, people are on their best behavior once they realize they're being video or audio recorded, because they know it can be used against them if they act inappropriately. The same goes for cops. Now, if a cop tries to bully you into handing over your camera or turning it off, you have no obligation to do either. NY has a one-party-consent wiretap law, but even if that wasn't the case you can record police who are on duty or in public. The SCOTUS has also ruled (dealing with a wiretap law case from IL) that recording police who are on duty does not require their consent even if that state's wiretap law mandates all-party-consent.

People often confuse asserting one's rights with being disrespectful, but it's easy to do both. I would say something like, "Officer, I know you have a job to do, but I'm still going to exercise my right to remain silent and not answer any questions without a lawyer." An exception mentioned in my previous post is you are obligated to give your name and address under NY law if the officer has declared you're being detained and what crime you're suspected of having committed. You need get the officer to explicitly say if you're being detained or if you're free to go.

In fact, the only three statements you should ever make to the police while pulled over are the following:
1. "I'm going to exercise my right to remain silent and not answer any questions without a lawyer."
2. "I do not consent to any searches or seizures of any kind without a warrant."
3. "Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?"


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

A co-worker suggested yesterday that as the hearing date gets closer (June 2016), I should re-schedule. Lessens the chances of the cop showing up, or something- dunno. Worth a try.


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## xxl (Mar 19, 2002)

TheManShow said:


> I use to go to the State Prision frequently as my work took me their, some of the correctional officers, (most hadted being called guards) use to refer to the inmates as guest of the state. Maybe because the "guests" had more right than a free person who was homeless on the street.
> 
> Right included, medical, dental, prescriptions, optical, three meals a day, so many shower a week. All right of being a guest.



BITD, my work occasionally took me to the old Ohio Reformatory (the "Shawshank Redemption" prison), where the admin referred to the inhabitants as "residents."


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> A co-worker suggested yesterday that as the hearing date gets closer (June 2016), I should re-schedule. Lessens the chances of the cop showing up, or something- dunno. Worth a try.


I had a ticket fizzle out like that. I actually did have to reschedule several times due to business travel I couldn't avoid.

The last time I wrote to the court, they never bothered to answer. I may have been a wanted man in New Jersey for a few years. But the statute of limitations have run out on me going 6 mph over the speed limit on the Ben Franklin Bridge. I hope.


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## Christine (Jul 23, 2005)

6mph over the limit?! That's a felony, you probably doubled the bike speed limit doing that :lol:


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Christine said:


> 6mph over the limit?! That's a felony, you probably doubled the bike speed limit doing that :lol:


I was in my car. If I had been on my bike, I'd have probably not made it to the end of the bridge.


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