# Buying used carbon



## jaysc (Apr 23, 2010)

Ok so this my first post. I'm pretty active over at MTBR and I'm starting to get into road biking for training purposes. I've stalked this board for quite a while, and finally here I am. I hope to be able to contribute to the board as much as I know I'll get out of it.

So here we go. I'm looking at buying my first "real" road bike. I'm looking to buy used, and looking to spend about $800-1200, and get as much for my money as I can (obviously). This does put my in the lower end carbon frame category (I've been able to find some good deals), but I'm a but worried about buying a used carbon frame. I went through this with my most recent mountain bike purchase. I was planning on going from Alu to Carbon and ended up that buying new carbon was the only way to go. I figure that between only having the warranty if the bike is new and not knowing the history of the bike, it was the safest course of action. Would you suggest that I follow the same principle with a "training/group ride only" road bike?

I'm currently juggling between three bikes right now:

Cannondale CAAD7
Dura-Ace gruppo
Ksyrium SL wheels
(crashed once, a few scratches but its Alu)

'06 Fuji Team pro (carbon)
Ultegra gruppo
Ultegra wheels
(maxes out my "bike only" budget)

'09 Fuji Team (carbon)
105/ultegra mix
R500 wheels
(a tad bit small for me, nothing too bad I don't believe)

All three are within a few hundred dollars of each other, so price isn't really that big of a deal. I like the '09 because I feel less nervous about the frame, but I think I've narrowed it down to the first two despite my feelings.

Let me know what your feelings are on used carbon, and if you feel like let me know which bike you'd buy.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

I would not consider buying a used CF frameset. IMO there's too much risk of unseen damage and no recourse because there's no warranty. Sure, you might be able to send the frame off to Calfee for repair, but footing that bill will greatly diminish your 'value for the money' goal. And I've read numerous posts about that happening. 

Go new, get sizing/ fitting assistance from a reputable shop along with a warranty. That IMO is the_ real _value.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*This is kinda like Déjà vu for me....*

Had the same budget, hoping I'd end up snagging an upgraded CAAD8 or early 9, or opt for a Scattante ride, and very skeptical of going the carbon route as well....

But in the end, I did go with carbon - a 2006 Giant TCR composite at the bottom of your price range. Even more outrageous is that it was previously crashed albeit with replaced components and heavy assurance that the frame didn't suffer: Crash was a rear-end from another rider who bend the RD cage, and took out the rear wheel. Thinking about it, there is possiblity that the frame didn't suffer much, if not at all. Both components as well as the hanger were replaced before the bike was sold.

Month later, noticed some chips .near the chainstay. Had the reassurance from the seller and posters here that it was cosemetic, and I'm still "bombing" rough hills to come back here, posting comfortably. If I were to go back in time to change my decision, I probably wouldn't. The only comparable deal I found on CL was last week (upgraded '08 Felt F4 for $950), and my bottom line was that the seller made the difference. I went for the bike from the ad in the first place only because it sparked interest. Talking to the seller is what solidified my purchase.

So my point: be aware that you have until you reach into your pocket to make the final decision. Any great-sounding deals should be followed with very respectable/honest sellers upon "interrogation". Otherwise, turn around and try something else. While the last listing you have seems "safest", I still think it comes down to how the seller is in person.


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## AllezCat (Jun 2, 2006)

Buying used carbon is like buying used cycling clothes. You will have to take the previous owners word on what occured and you will never really know how worn/damaged/abused the bike is. There is a very good chance that everything will be perfectly fine with your used carbon bike. You just don't the assurance that you know everything that has ever happened.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't the risk is that great as long as the seller is not lying or hiding something. Manufacturers warranties generally only cover defects. If a carbon frame has not had a problem in the first year it probably never will. If you get a good enough deal, it would justify getting it repaired down the road if something did happen.
There are plenty of stories and pictures here of broken carbon frames but the reality is it is a very small percentage and maybe less than Ti frames. I personally know more people who have broken Ti frames than carbon. I would ask questions like has it ever been crashed, or repaired. If you can see the frame in person look for obvious signs of damage. A test ride can also reveal problems if the bike is making strange noises or not riding straight. I have owned carbon bikes for 15 years and the only problem I had was a design defect and the manufacturer (Trek) replaced it for no charge. I think carbon has matured to the point where you don't see defects as much anymore.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IMO obvious signs of damage due to crashes, drops, etc. aren't so much the issue here because (most times) the damage is seen/ evident. What concerns me when buying used CF are the possible defects that can't be seen. And even the most honest seller won't share that info because s/he may not even be aware of it. When alu/ steel fail, the vast majority of times it's fairly obvious, but CF isn't always so obvious. 

I think a potential buyer should ask themselves what the advantage to buying used would be (presumably, savings), then decide if it's worth the risk of being out that amount of money if the frame were to fail.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jnbrown said:


> I don't the risk is that great as long as the seller is not lying or hiding something. Manufacturers warranties generally only cover defects. If a carbon frame has not had a problem in the first year it probably never will. If you get a good enough deal, it would justify getting it repaired down the road if something did happen.
> There are plenty of stories and pictures here of broken carbon frames but the reality is it is a very small percentage and maybe less than Ti frames. I personally know more people who have broken Ti frames than carbon. I would ask questions like has it ever been crashed, or repaired. If you can see the frame in person look for obvious signs of damage. A test ride can also reveal problems if the bike is making strange noises or not riding straight. I have owned carbon bikes for 15 years and *the only problem I had was a design defect and the manufacturer (Trek) replaced it for no charge*. I think carbon has matured to the point where you don't see defects as much anymore.


Because you had a warranty. Had you purchased it used, too bad.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Because you had a warranty. Had you purchased it used, too bad.


It was the first year Trek made OCLV bikes and there was a known design defect with the BB shell separating from the frame. Trek fixed the design. It was the only problem I have had with OCLV bikes in 15 years of riding them and crashing several times. I don't think design defects occur much anymore. Most problems probably occur due to poor quality control on the part of some companies, so it might be good to research the companies track record in that respect. If you simply can't afford a new carbon bike then used becomes the only option. Everything has risk, even brand new bikes with warranties have failed and in some cases the manufacturer won't cover it because of some loophole or excuse.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

jnbrown said:


> Everything has risk, even brand new bikes with warranties have failed and in some cases the manufacturer won't cover it because of some loophole or excuse.


His point was that your frame has a "life time" warranty for the original owner. If you'd bought it used, there would be no warranty at all.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

jnbrown said:


> It was the first year Trek made OCLV bikes and *there was a known design defect with the BB shell separating from the frame. Trek fixed the design*. It was the only problem I have had with OCLV bikes in 15 years of riding them and crashing several times.* I don't think design defects occur much anymore*. Most problems probably occur due to poor quality control on the part of some companies, so *it might be good to research the companies track record *in that respect. If you simply can't afford a new carbon bike then used becomes the only option. Everything has risk, even brand *new bikes with warranties have failed and in some cases the manufacturer won't cover *it because of some loophole or excuse.


I'm not panning Trek in any respect, but if you spend some time in their forum you'll see that BB issues are still plaguing them. And defects still do occur in numerous brands/ models - moreso with CF than alu or steel, but that's JMO based on what I've read here and elsewhere. 

As far as researching a companies track record, that would go far in avoiding the ones that don't come through on warranty issues. This forum is an excellent resource to garner such iinformation. 

BTW, FWIW one of my bikes is CF, but it was purchased new.


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## robpar (Jan 26, 2008)

jaysc said:


> Ok so this my first post. I'm pretty active over at MTBR and I'm starting to get into road biking for training purposes. I've stalked this board for quite a while, and finally here I am. I hope to be able to contribute to the board as much as I know I'll get out of it.
> 
> So here we go. I'm looking at buying my first "real" road bike. I'm looking to buy used, and looking to spend about $800-1200, and get as much for my money as I can (obviously). This does put my in the lower end carbon frame category (I've been able to find some good deals), but I'm a but worried about buying a used carbon frame. I went through this with my most recent mountain bike purchase. I was planning on going from Alu to Carbon and ended up that buying new carbon was the only way to go. I figure that between only having the warranty if the bike is new and not knowing the history of the bike, it was the safest course of action. Would you suggest that I follow the same principle with a "training/group ride only" road bike?
> 
> ...


Don't worry, used carbon is fine; just have it checked just like you would if you bought a used car; use common sense. You can tell if a bike is well maintained. I Bought a used 2006 Giant TCR C frame a couple of years ago. it's still in perfect condition and when I sell it, somebody is going to get a great frame for a very good price. I had three days to evaluate it and return it if I did not want it, so I took it to a shop. They said it was in great shape. Actually, two years later, it only has a small amount of cable rub on the headtube.
A friend of mine who builds frames; a great metal worker ( a small plug for Rob Babcock; Babcock Metalworks) told me that people would be very nervous if they saw how thin the tube walls are in TI or Al frames and you can not tell if it is a good perfect weld without voids unless you xray it.. so, so much for the certainty of Al frames...
Most frames of any material will last a long time if taken care of properly. You can tell if a carbon frame has been crashed; clear coats do not hide imperfections very well...


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## edscueth (Jul 12, 2008)

As someone previously said, the warranty on carbon road bikes only covers manufacture defect - most cracked carbon road bikes are from user error - I know myself and my warranty was useless. In my opinion the warranties are almost pointless.
I am not sure I would by a used carbon road bike sight unseen, but if I had a chance to test ride it and it was a good deal, I would have no worries.


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## Bridgey (Mar 26, 2003)

they sell nice carbon frames on ebay for $300 to $500US. You get the handlebars, seatpost, stem and waterbottle cage with it. Quite nice frames too. Or you can go to e-hongfu and order the same frames for under 400. The FM015 seems to be real popular on this forum. Buy yourself some cheaper groupo and your away with a bike that will weigh under 8kg's.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I'd vote for the '06 Fuji if its in good shape. Sounds like it fits you better than the '09 one and it has better wheels/components. Has it been ridden hard? My experience with friends buying used bikes is that often, they were barely ever used and you end up getting a real bargain. I would have no hesitation buying a used carbon bike. Carbon is no more likely to break than aluminum or titanium. You hear more stories about carbon failing because there's so much of it out there. As someone mentioned, percentage wise, the failure rate is probably really low. I bought my first carbon bike in 1993 (a Kestrel 200 Sci) and rode the hell out of it. Carbon is tough stuff. I'd be much more worried about that crashed Cannondale. Plus (this is my opinion), aluminum bikes ride really harsh compared to carbon bikes. I had a Cannondale years ago and hated that thing. I'm sure they've gotten better, but never again for me.


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## jaysc (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks for all the input folks! I think I've decided to go "new carbon" or used Al. At this point the CAAD7 is looking like the safest option. I'm starting a new thread now, narrowing down choices.

Thanks again!


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## spastook (Nov 30, 2007)

I bought a (used) Orbea Opal 2 years ago for $800. It was actually a new frame but the owner was selling it because it was too stiff. I've logged many miles on it since then with no issues. You can buy used carbon but I would not buy one sight unseen. Mine was obviously mint when I went to look at it.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

I just bought a used Time VXR. 
I went by what the owner told me which was not totally accurate.
It did have some paint chips and a lot of grime but no real problem.
After cleaning it looks near new and I am now touching up the chips.
I will be putting it together this weekend so that will tell if it rides as good as it looks.
I knew this was the bike I wanted and this was the only to buy one at a price I could afford.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

contrary to popular opinion, carbon fiber is the easiest frame material to repair (look at Calfee's site for details). It also will outlast other frame materials, particularly aluminum, which has no fatigue limit (meaning it will eventually fail).


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## CleavesF (Dec 31, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> contrary to popular opinion, carbon fiber is the easiest frame material to repair (look at Calfee's site for details). It also will outlast other frame materials, particularly aluminum, which has no fatigue limit (meaning it will eventually fail).


errr... *all* materials fail. 

And for aluminum, it is not no fatigue limit, it is "no endurance limit"


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

stevesbike said:


> contrary to popular opinion, *carbon fiber is the easiest frame material to repair (look at Calfee's site for details).* It also will outlast other frame materials, particularly aluminum, which has no fatigue limit (meaning it will eventually fail).


I think it's arguable that CF is the easiest frame material to repair, because (comparing it to steel) the _type_ of damage may alter that assessment. For example, it's sometimes possible to bend a steel tube back into shape, but not so with CF.

As far as Calfee's site offering 'details', there are precious few, and no prices mentioned (for obvious reasons). Sure, they're very good at what they do, but there comes a point where a repair isn't the best (financial) alternative given a frames residual value.


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

I always heard that if a guy was selling a used carbon frame chances are he is a terrorist.

Like what do you do if you see a sweet carbon bike just laying on the side of the road in the middle of no where? You run like hell, its a roadside bomb.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

CleavesF said:


> errr... *all* materials fail.
> 
> And for aluminum, it is not no fatigue limit, it is "no endurance limit"


Actually, ASTM doesn't use endurance limit, which is relevant here, since ASTM tests are the ones utilizes in the cycling industry etc. And for the billionth time here's Zinn's article with all the major carbon manufacturers weighing in on carbon and fatigue. Short answer: a carbon bike, barring crashes, will last as long as you...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2002...ical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-carbon-forks-2_3270


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

PJ352 said:


> IMO obvious signs of damage due to crashes, drops, etc. aren't so much the issue here because (most times) the damage is seen/ evident. What concerns me when buying used CF are the possible defects that can't be seen. And even the most honest seller won't share that info because s/he may not even be aware of it. When alu/ steel fail, the vast majority of times it's fairly obvious, but CF isn't always so obvious.
> 
> I think a potential buyer should ask themselves what the advantage to buying used would be (presumably, savings), then decide if it's worth the risk of being out that amount of money if the frame were to fail.


+1... Which is why I would go for the CAAD bike of the three mentioned. Carbon is a great material but $1,000 is a $1,000 regardless of if the bike is new or used. I love my Felt F1 but had I bought used, I wouldn't have bought carbon. To many what ifs to warrant me purchasing a used carbon frame- well unless I know the owner and that's the original owner.


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## jaysc (Apr 23, 2010)

So just to update, I ended up going for the new carbon. Got an '08 Scott, NOS, off the floor of my faithful LBS. Great bike, great price.


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