# Japanese, French, American or Italian?



## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Japanese, French, American or Italian?

Whether frames or components- discuss

Let’s liven up this forum a little


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Japanese frames*

I've gone long on UK and Italian frames but in the last 10 years I've acquired a 3Rensho Katana, Samson Kerin and had a Kalavinka custom built with the fitting on a trip when in Tokyo. I just got back from two weeks there although I usually don't spend time going to bike shops when I travel. I may get one more steel frame and it's likely to be from Japan due to the care they put into their work. The frames in the States look awesome but I usually buy where I live and that was the UK and now Asia.

Components? I've used both Shimano and Campag, Japan and Italy. Starting with the latter but getting the first DA set when it came out in late '73. Either are fine although I have not tried SRAM.


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## Dmds (Mar 5, 2011)

I currently have a cr-mo Nishiki Olympic Tri-A and a Columbus SL Gios Torino Super Record. I can give my opinion on those as they are working bikes (I have a japanese made bianchi coming my way, and a SL Basso Gap that I'm trying to build)

The japanese made Nishiki is really comfortable, too bad only the main tubes is cr-mo. The Super Record is a different ride. Can't explain it, but I can say I won't be letting it go.

At this point, I'll say Italian.

Components, I can't say. I've only ridden Shimano. I have shimano 600 tri color on my Gios (gasp) I got it as a bare frame and built it with what I had.


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## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

I have a Konno made Allez that is a piece of art and a high end Italian Columbus SL frame, which appears to be Romani built for Palo Alto Cyclery. I also have an old Peugeot made from tig wielded Reynolds 501. They are all good bikes. The Peugeot has an English BB which makes maintenance a snap. Saying that I have turned down several French frames with French BB because they are just not worth the trouble to me.


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## icemonkey (Sep 6, 2010)

Excellent question. Today I only have 3 bikes: Univega Competitzione (86) all Suntour Superbe, Bianchi CDI (83) Iitalian all NR and a Bianchi Brava Japanese of unknown date and a mish mash of parts. They are all superb but there are subtle differences. The Univega being the snappiest ride and somehow intense. The CDI has a certain pixie dust sprinked on it that makes it my favorite ride and the one I reach for most; I just feel it wants to be pushed harder into the corners and faster downhill. The Brava is a little more workmanlike and is being built to be a cross bike - it just screems out fun. I used to ride a peaugeot... Lovely but I cant truly remember well enough.

So which frame is best? Impossible to tell, I have a feeling its mostly in the mind and geometry. Ime the Italian steel has magic but sometimes the finish can be rough and paint thin. Japanese frames better finished and thrilling. The combo? Fun.

For components. For the 80's no contest Suntour Superb Pro to my eyes is lovely, shifts better and is better made. You wont find bad casting even on the Superb, the screws are knurled, there are multiple tentsion settings etc etc


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## moschika (Feb 1, 2004)

I'll take 1 of each please. 

oh, yeah. i do! :thumbsup:

I like them all. though the Frenchy is a mid/low level Peugeot UE-8, wth Simplex, but it rides nice enough for what it is. a little short in the top-tube and not as springy as my old Moto GJ.

I've been riding my Gios SR quite a bit lately. i feel fast on it, even if i'm not going fast. Campy SR of-course.

my 3rensho. wish it were just a smidge taller. Shimano 600, though thinking of upgrading to Suntour some day.

my americans. all great riding bikes. mix of Shimano, Campy.

I would love to get an English bike some day. keeping a place setting for when I get the chance/money.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

<o></o>I have 4 road bikes (including the CX), 3 MTBs and 3 unbuilt frames at present. Two of the MTBs are American and everything else is Italian. 
<o></o>
One MTB has Shimano, one has a Suntour/Sachs mix and everything else is Campy. 
<o></o>
Outside of a curly stay Hetchin's every frame I lust for is Italian. 
<o></o>
Hmmm :idea: I think I see a trend here.....


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

It doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it's off beat and a little bit suspect. How about Zeus! From the good old days of Franco's Spain! France's Huret is even better. Go over a ripple in the road and the rear derailleur will faithfully slip into fifth! Just where you always want it. Don't forget Ofmega and Gnutti. And that brand of Italian frame that was actually made in an Italian prison.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

I've had great frames that were made in Italy, Japan, USA, and England. Never had a French bike, though.

For components, I've had Suntour, Campy, Shimano and am now trying out SRAM (upper end-ish on all of these). I've liked them all.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

In my current fleet of "nice" bikes

3Rensho- 3 bikes Japanese
LOOK- 2 bikes- French
Panasonic- 2 bikes Japanese
Custom- 1 bike USA

Components are 100% Japanese- Dura Ace

If I ever branched out in components , I'd go with Suntour Superbe

Any new frame purchases will likely be Japanese


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

boneman said:


> I've gone long on UK and Italian frames but in the last 10 years I've acquired a 3Rensho Katana, Samson Kerin and had a Kalavinka custom built with the fitting on a trip when in Tokyo. I just got back from two weeks there although I usually don't spend time going to bike shops when I travel. I may get one more steel frame and it's likely to be from Japan due to the care they put into their work. The frames in the States look awesome but I usually buy where I live and that was the UK and now Asia.
> 
> Components? I've used both Shimano and Campag, Japan and Italy. Starting with the latter but getting the first DA set when it came out in late '73. Either are fine although I have not tried SRAM.


Don't forget you have an Italian frame in storage in the US:thumbsup: It's in good hands


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

You all know that this was the year i finally got off my butt and got myself a older (mid 80's) guercotti. What a revelation riding columbus slx tubing was, it was as if the bike were giving back and making me faster. 

My current steel frame, columbus spirit rides nice, but no where as nice as the guercotti.

My next quest is a Bridgestone RB-1 Thats this winters job,

Best hubs for pure wow factor, campy sherif star hubs. hands down winners. 

Best single pivot brakes, suntour superbe pro brakes, pure beauty. 

One of the best groups, that you can still get on ebay, in 7 spd or 8 spd, down tube or STI, Shimano 600 ultegra the tri color group.


Best rims, Mavic. Ma 40's, Open pro, gel 330, gel 280, 

Second prettiest hubs, Mavic hubs from the late eighties early ninties. 

Best seatpost, Campy stuff rules here. Second place to older shimano stuff, the EX stuff. 


Bill


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

eehaw, nothing like a little excitement.

If your discussing vintage stuff from the 80's I would say the Japanese were ahead of the others in both areas-frame building and components. 

Miyata I believe had the best frames in the world, my 87 Team had cromoly triple butted lugged steel splined tubesets and they even splined the stays which Columbus didn't even do with their later SLX series. This frameset is very stiff and just rockets under foot. 

Suntour wins hands down for having the best groups in the world in the 80's. Their components were bullet proof and shifted faster and smoother then any other out there at the time. They had a few bombs but for the most part their entire line from the cheapest up the best were the best in the world. I have Suntour Superbe stuff on one of my bikes with over 150,000 miles on the components and no signs of giving up. Suntour Cyclone and Sprint were also all very reliable and fast shifting units. Suntour lower (actually probably mid end) Vx series shifted better then any top end derailleur from anyone else!

So there's my choices...and of course opinion which could be hotly debated...but that's the fun of this!

I own a several 80's Japanese bikes including 84 Fuji Club with quad butted tubing another great tube set, 86 Nishiki Olympic, 87 Miyata Team and a 88 Miyata 712 with the spline tubing technology. My 2 other 80's era bikes have Reynolds 531cs on one and Columbus Tenax on another, but both have Japanese components.

The only component group I didn't like is the Suntour ARX that's on the Fuji, the ARX was not a shining moment for Suntour, it doesn't shift as fast or as smooth as either my Superbe stuff or the Mountech and it even is worse then my Shimano stuff on the Miyata Team Shimano Dura Ace or the Nishiki and the Miyata 712 SIS Light Action and the other is SIS 105, and the Shimano stuff doesn't shift as fast as the Superbe so you can tell the ARX is not great at all.


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

I read an artical awhile ago about the whole suntour accushift fiasco. The artical claimed that suntour came out with a quality click shifting system. They sold a bunch of groups to Schwinn who saved money by using chains they had sitting around. These chains were not the proper kind to work with accushift. This decision cost suntour a huge amount of bad publicly and may have even hastened its demise. 

Bill


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

crossracer said:


> I read an artical awhile ago about the whole suntour accushift fiasco. The artical claimed that suntour came out with a quality click shifting system. They sold a bunch of groups to Schwinn who saved money by using chains they had sitting around. These chains were not the proper kind to work with accushift. This decision cost suntour a huge amount of bad publicly and may have even hastened its demise.
> 
> Bill


Actually what hasten their demise was Shimano being a lot bigger then Suntour (Shimano was really big into farm equippment back then), and Suntour, instead of just patiently going about doing it's thing felt necessary to keep up with Shimano. So when Shimano introduced their line of Aero AX products (aero? nothing aero about it!) Suntour raced to get out a product called the ARX and it was flop, then Shimano came out with SIS (click and shift) and again Suntour raced to put a similar version but it to flopped. Suntour put aside their testing format and just put things out without ever testing them to see how well they would work, Then on top of that mountain biking became all the rage and Suntour wasn't into that so again found themselves behind having to race to try to keep up. In addition Shimano had the power of money and were marketing like crazy while Suntour couldn't afford it. Suntour did nothing but bicycle parts; Shimano was a huge manufacturing operation involved in farm equippment, bearings, motors, fishing stuff, various mechanical parts, rowing, supplied parts for Mikita, Apple, as well as cycling, and probably some other stuff I'm not aware of. So they had the money to drown Suntour and that's what they did. That's why I don't like Shimano, Shimano should have bought them out and kept producing their products instead of just letting them go into the trash heap of history. Oh well!

not sure if I got all the details correct but there's a web site about the history of Suntour that is interesting and does have the details correct; see: Sunset for SunTour


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## sewup dude (Aug 31, 2009)

For frames, I vote Italian 1st then Belgium (Merckx). I haven't owned any of the others. Although I'd like to build an English one someday.
Italian frames deserve Italian components (Campagnolo). The Dura Ace 7400 series seems to shift and brake better though.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

sewup dude said:


> For frames, I vote Italian 1st then Belgium (Merckx). I haven't owned any of the others. Although I'd like to build an English one someday.
> Italian frames deserve Italian components (Campagnolo). The Dura Ace 7400 series seems to shift and brake better though.


I would love to have a Pegoretti Big Legged Mamma...ok fine, Emma. Never rode one nor knew anyone who had one but those huge rear stays must have been real nice to hammer on. Not sure if those are considered Vintage since their still making them...I think.


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## ScottInCincinnati (Feb 20, 2004)

Well, this IS an interesting topic!

I will take one of each:

- Japanese: 3rensho with suntour superbe pro (maybe a rebadged allez?)

- Italian: Gios with Record

- American: Richard Sachs with modern Athena alloy

I am sure there are many other desirable makes, but those are the ones that get me going....


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## Reynolds531 (Nov 8, 2002)

Dave Hickey said:


> Japanese, French, American or Italian?
> 
> Whether frames or components- discuss
> 
> Let’s liven up this forum a little


I've had moderately nice frames form the 70's and 80s'. Among them: Gitane Tour de France, Raleigh Competition, Shogun 1000, Fuji Finest, Trek 560.

The Trek is clearly the best built, most precisely assembled bike. It's the one I still have. My rankings after that would be Fuji, Shogun, Gitane, Raleigh. The Raleigh was poorly built. apparently with alignment by eyeball. The Gitane was noodly and would shimmy at high speed. The Shogun and Fuji were quite nice, but had way to much flex in the bottom bracket ( I weight about 190 and ride a 64 cm frame).

I don't think that country of origin has anything to do with the frame quality and characteristics. If I had my choice, I'd go with an American Waterford.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Reynolds531 said:


> I'
> 
> I don't think that country of origin has anything to do with the frame quality and characteristics. .


I agree 100%...

I've really enjoyed reading the replies in this thread.... 

People here truly understand that it's not just material that determines ride quality...geometry, tube shape and construction really matter..
That concept seems to be lost on endless "buy carbon" post found elsewhere on RBR


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## icemonkey (Sep 6, 2010)

_I don't think that country of origin has anything to do with the frame quality and characteristics_

You are probably right, but please let the fantasy live a little. I want to believe that my Bianchis were forged in the fires of Italian passion and my Univega was sculpted by wizened craftsmen raised in the traditions of hammering out samurai swords. The truth is all these bikes were made in an dull industrial setting, but maybe just maybe there is a little romance poured into the tubing. After all if it wasn't like that I would ride a carbon frame.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Haha, almost forgot*

One of these days I'm going to have to get a fleet tracking tool. My sister's got two frames that have since moving from Birmingham to Little Rock. Thanks!


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## onespeedbiker (May 28, 2007)

crossracer said:


> Best hubs for pure wow factor, campy sherif star hubs. hands down winners.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill


Hard to argue with that..


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## Trevor Ash (May 19, 2005)

Dave Hickey said:


> Japanese, French, American or Italian?
> 
> Whether frames or components- discuss
> 
> Let’s liven up this forum a little



Everything but French. I'm afraid to work on French bikes due to not knowing if they have weird threads/stuff  Something years back must have turned me off from them and I have no idea what! Anyone care to fix my ignorant bias? Something about bottom brackets or cranks if I recall correctly.

I will say however that I'm a huge fan of the older Miyata's. I sold this one to a friend and regret it:









Currently, my favorite seem to be an even mix of Japanese and Italian. There's not too many american stuff (except custom) that floats my boat.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*SunTour*

I'd almost forgotten about them and Sugino. The rear derailleur, Winner and Cyclone, was so much better shifting than Campag NR and SR of the time. Even after you mastered the overshift and back for Campag, one longed for the more definitive shifting action of SunTour which was also better than the Shimano Crane (original Dura Ace). Sadly I never got onto the Superbe group, by that time having dumped Campag derailleurs and going to Shimano 600 and SIS, and Campag CRecord (the beloved Synchro shifters). I ran the SIS in friction for about a year before trying indexed shifting. I'm just slow to change. As for the Synchro shifters, it caused me to stay on Shimano derailluers and shifters until I went to Campag 10 speed.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Not many props given to the English.

Did 55 miles Monday on my late '80's Falcon built with Reynolds 531P and Campy Record Ti 8 speed. Despite having the Columbus TSX Bertoni and a 6.9 Madone as geared bikes, every time I get on the Falcon I'm reminded why I still have that bike after 23 years. It just fits, handles, descends, rides, "communicates" (?) like nothing else.


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## Trevor Ash (May 19, 2005)

Reynolds 531 is great. I have an old Trek (85'ish?) that is my favorite go to bike because of that. It's heavy, soft on the body but performs well. I'm not familiar with the P notation. I'll have to look at that.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Trevor Ash said:


> Reynolds 531 is great. I have an old Trek (85'ish?) that is my favorite go to bike because of that. It's heavy, soft on the body but performs well. I'm not familiar with the P notation. I'll have to look at that.


531P was nothing but 531C with the butting in the main tubes being .08/.05 down from the .09/.06 of 531C (same as Columbus SL). Basically the same as 753 but not the exotic alloy or the heat treatment. Fairly rare as, if memory serves me right, it was not recommended for "heavy" riders. Rides as nice as my defunct Bob Jackson 753 did but I actually like the fit and geometry of the Falcon better.


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