# WTH Garmin Cervelo?



## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

NO ONE with any chance of having a good general classification was riding at the front of the peleton? Tommy D, Ryder, and VDV all caught up in the melee. That's pitiful. Be interesting to see who misses the top ten or even top five out of those three by two minutes.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ohvrolla said:


> NO ONE with any chance of having a good general classification was riding at the front of the peleton? Tommy D, Ryder, and VDV all caught up in the melee. That's pitiful. Be interesting to see who misses the top ten or even top five out of those three by two minutes.


Did you seriously expect them to podium?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

I just saw a video clip where Vaughters was telling his guys that Thor and the GC guys should be up front, although not on the front. a


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Vaughters needs to shut up.

He proved in the classics (good 'ol "we don't sprint for second or third, SIT IN SIT IN!) that he's a pretty crappy tactician. Too bad he fired Matt White, who actually had some gumption and went for it now and then.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

GC goals are pretty much over. I'd say concentrate hard on supporting Thor for the green jersey. He's already way ahead on Cavendish, who doesn't seem very interested in the jersey anyway. Else, do selective breakaways whenever they come. If only Zabriskie would get into some breaks and not quit after the road starts tilting upwards.


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Vaughters needs to shut up.


Ever since they ran down George when he could have had the yellow I think he's pretty much a d*&che


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## zosocane (Aug 29, 2004)

The only guy that surprised me not being mindful to be up front (and being strong enough to be up front) was Ryder Hesjedal. He is a serious top 10 contender that keeps improving each year. He was asleep at the switch today being 60+ riders back when the Iglinsky crash happened.

I'm not surprised Tommy and and CVDV being behind. Look at the Garmin riders who stayed at the front: Hushovd and Millar, the wily Tour veterans.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Vaughters needs to shut up.
> 
> He proved in the classics (good 'ol "we don't sprint for second or third, SIT IN SIT IN!) that he's a pretty crappy tactician. Too bad he fired Matt White, who actually had some gumption and went for it now and then.



I'm not sure which part of "get to the front" you disagree with. He told his boys to get to the front, and it appears they didn't. Seems like a few got held up. Thor got 3rd so not all that sucky. Blinded by your hatred of Vaughters?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

88 rex said:


> I'm not sure which part of "get to the front" you disagree with. He told his boys to get to the front, and it appears they didn't. Seems like a few got held up. Thor got 3rd so not all that sucky. Blinded by your hatred of Vaughters?


See poster above: the ones who got to the front were the "wily tour veterans" who've been through this rodeo before. Why he has to TELL his GC men to get to the front is beyond me.

Vaughters has shown time and time again he has the tactical acumen of a lawn dart, and I have no doubt that this tour will be no exception.


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

55x11 said:


> Did you seriously expect them to podium?


Of course not, but top 10 was a possibility.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> See poster above: the ones who got to the front were the "wily tour veterans" who've been through this rodeo before. Why he has to TELL his GC men to get to the front is beyond me.
> 
> Vaughters has shown time and time again he has the tactical acumen of a lawn dart, and I have no doubt that this tour will be no exception.



Ryder is a younger guy. Maybe a little less experienced, not sure. VdV is a veteran with a history of crashing. They are the two GC hopefuls. They should have been up front. You can't argue that fact. They weren't up there. Your complaint is that Vaughter is an idiot because his guys were too far back despite him telling his GC guys AND Thor to make sure they were up front. I'm willing to bet every manager was reminding their GC guys to be up front. That's their job. This is the riders mistakes, not the managers.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

88 rex said:


> Ryder is a younger guy. Maybe a little less experienced, not sure. VdV is a veteran with a history of crashing. They are the two GC hopefuls. They should have been up front. You can't argue that fact. They weren't up there. Your complaint is that Vaughter is an idiot because his guys were too far back despite him telling his GC guys AND Thor to make sure they were up front. I'm willing to bet every manager was reminding their GC guys to be up front. That's their job. This is the riders mistakes, not the managers.


They must really trust him if they can't even listen to his most basic instructions.

I reiterate: Vaughters has never been a good DS. He should stay in the bus where his fat head can take up TV cameras and not in the team car (poorly) directing his riders.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> They must really trust him if they can't even listen to his most basic instructions.
> 
> I reiterate: Vaughters has never been a good DS. He should stay in the bus where his fat head can take up TV cameras and not in the team car (poorly) directing his riders.



He also told them all to team time trial the whole stage and come across the line in 1-9 but the damn slackers decided to disobey them.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

88 rex said:


> He also told them all to team time trial the whole stage and come across the line in 1-9 but the damn slackers decided to disobey them.


Oh gee, no different than any other manager.... 

Now, when vaughters can coach his team to winning something at the tour, then we can talk about his skill. Until then, he's a failure.

Actually, even a stage win wouldn't redeem his fat, hipster sideburned ego.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Oh gee, no different than any other manager....
> 
> Now, when vaughters can coach his team to winning something at the tour, then we can talk about his skill. Until then, he's a failure.
> 
> Actually, even a stage win wouldn't redeem his fat, hipster sideburned ego.



Ciao.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

ohvrolla said:


> Of course not, but top 10 was a possibility.


I think they have other problems, even though of course losing a minute on first day is not ideal. But they can make up some time tomorrow and if they focused on supporting Farrar and going for stage wins, they might be better off anyways. Who cares about who finishes 8th, even in TdF?


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

im pretty sure his guys were trying to be up front. everyone was. remember, only about 30 riders werent caught in the crash, basically three teams.

while im not the biggest jv fan (especially after the "sit in! sit in! dont work!" this past spring. it may have been a good call at the time, but you shouldnt ever completely call off the dogs as he found out. i feel bad for thor), he cant will them to the front. riders fight to get up front, its just bmc, europcar, and lotto made it.


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## Sylint (Jul 27, 2009)

weltyed said:


> im pretty sure his guys were trying to be up front. everyone was. remember, only about 30 riders werent caught in the crash, basically three teams.
> 
> while im not the biggest jv fan (especially after the "sit in! sit in! dont work!" this past spring. it may have been a good call at the time, but you shouldnt ever completely call off the dogs as he found out. i feel bad for thor), he cant will them to the front. riders fight to get up front, its just bmc, europcar, and lotto made it.


 
especially seeing as how they had pretty much just come off the front.


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## pagey (Oct 30, 2009)

Vaughters is not a DS's ass. Garmin-Cervelo was shot the day they got rid of Matty White.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Vaughters needs to shut up.
> 
> He proved in the classics (good 'ol "we don't sprint for second or third, SIT IN SIT IN!) that he's a pretty crappy tactician. Too bad he fired Matt White, who actually had some gumption and went for it now and then.


Matt White sucked ass. They have won more races this year without him.


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## dougydee (Feb 15, 2005)

The first week is always a nervous time and no matter how many times the riders are told to go to the front, you can't have all 180 riders in the front. The crash was towards the front so some riders looking for top 15 GC were caught out.


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## carbonLORD (Aug 2, 2004)

moabbiker said:


> ... Cavendish, who doesn't seem very interested in the jersey anyway. ...


I read that he punctured clipping a curb avoiding one of the crashes but who knows...


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

carbonLORD said:


> I read that he punctured clipping a curb avoiding one of the crashes but who knows...


He said he hit the curb getting around that crash that was under 3K.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DZfan14 said:


> Matt White sucked ass. They have won more races this year without him.


White was a lot more tactically minded than JV. I'm sure he had _nothing_ to do with all the wins the team took before he was fired. 

Vaughters was more of a chair jockey until they fired White, and since he can't find anyone to fill those shoes, decided he'd sit in the car and pretend to be relevant.

Millar is the other one who needs to shut his pie hole. I don't care about his repentance, and I don't know where he comes off telling fans to "stop judging (a certain rider)...it's sad he's been convicted in the court of public opinion." Zabriskie is another one who talks more than he provides results. Enough of his "weirdness" and just race your bike. Between Zabriskie, Millar and Vaughters, all Garmin seems to want to do is put out sound bites while coming in second and third. Yeah, they won Roubaix. So what? I think Thomas Voeckler has more illustrious wins this year by himself.

I was excited by Garmin. I'm more excited by their redesigned kit. But the riders, with the exception of Farrar, Thor and Vande Velde (of the big names) are a lot of mouth and attitude.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> White was a lot more tactically minded than JV. I'm sure he had _nothing_ to do with all the wins the team took before he was fired.
> 
> Vaughters was more of a chair jockey until they fired White, and since he can't find anyone to fill those shoes, decided he'd sit in the car and pretend to be relevant.
> 
> ...


how can one be this worked up over a cycling team?


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## ohvrolla (Aug 2, 2009)

dougydee said:


> The first week is always a nervous time and no matter how many times the riders are told to go to the front, you can't have all 180 riders in the front. The crash was towards the front so some riders looking for top 15 GC were caught out.


The crash was fairly close to the front. Look at Radio Shack, all four of their "leaders" stayed out of harm's way and Garmin's GC hopefuls all lost time. Don't know if Garmin has bad luck or Radio Shack has rabbit's feet hanging around their neck yesterday.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Lets see. first stage with an uphill "sprint" finish and Thor (their protected rider for the day) missed the crash and finished 3rd. Guess they really failed there! Only about 30-40 riders out of about 200 made it through that traffic jam. From the looks of it, there were a couple Garmin riders right at the front of the pile up, but were waiting for the mass of humanity to start unpiling so they could untangle their bikes. On skinny roads there is only so much room for so many riders. They were more unlucky than completely out of position.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

coop said:


> Lets see. first stage with an uphill "sprint" finish and Thor (their protected rider for the day) missed the crash and finished 3rd. Guess they really failed there! Only about 30-40 riders out of about 200 made it through that traffic jam. From the looks of it, there were a couple Garmin riders right at the front of the pile up, but were waiting for the mass of humanity to start unpiling so they could untangle their bikes. On skinny roads there is only so much room for so many riders. They were more unlucky than completely out of position.


3rd. So what?

That's the second loser.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

robdamanii said:


> 3rd. So what?
> 
> That's the second loser.


none of the GC guys would win anyway so. 
so what if they crashed. 
Just following the logic here.

by the way, that was 30 points towards a green jersey with many sprinters loosing out all together. So what indeed.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Only took 3 years. About damn time.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

Stage win AND yellow.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Cpk said:


> Ever since they ran down George when he could have had the yellow I think he's pretty much a d*&che


You do realize the Matt White was calling the shots that day in the car JV was not he person that made that call.


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> 3rd. So what?
> 
> That's the second loser.


Dude, you're kind of all over the place here. Garmin and JV know very well that they're racing for nothing more than a top 10 on GC. They've pointed out all along that Thor was their rider for stage 1. He made it through the crash and had an opportunity to sprint for the finish. They had their goal for the day and while 3rd isn't 1st, at least they were in position. The GC guys were more a victim of bad luck (along with over 100 other riders) than truly bad positioning.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

robdamanii said:


> Vaughters needs to shut up.
> 
> He proved in the classics (good 'ol "we don't sprint for second or third, SIT IN SIT IN!) that he's a pretty crappy tactician. Too bad he fired Matt White, who actually had some gumption and went for it now and then.





ohvrolla said:


> NO ONE with any chance of having a good general classification was riding at the front of the peleton? Tommy D, Ryder, and VDV all caught up in the melee. That's pitiful. Be interesting to see who misses the top ten or even top five out of those three by two minutes.


You guys noticing the trend yet? You hate on Garmin on this board and they get a win. Someone hates on Zabriskie , he wins three TTs. Hate on Garmin during the classics and they win Roubaix. Vaughters should put you all on the payroll.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

88 rex said:


> Stage win AND yellow.


this is great, finally Garmin achieves something - anything - in the Tour. I'd say this makes up for about 10% of the gap between hype and results for Garmin. 90% to go.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

coop said:


> Dude, you're kind of all over the place here. Garmin and JV know very well that they're racing for nothing more than a top 10 on GC. They've pointed out all along that Thor was their rider for stage 1. He made it through the crash and had an opportunity to sprint for the finish. They had their goal for the day and while 3rd isn't 1st, at least they were in position. The GC guys were more a victim of bad luck (along with over 100 other riders) than truly bad positioning.


Racing for top 10 is lame. Nobody cares who was 5th in the tour in a couple years. Nobody cares who was 10th last year. They claim to be racing for stages, but they botch half their leadout trains, and the other half of the time Farrar can't figure out where to be positioned, and (with the exception of today) their TT efforts are always a day late and a dollar short.

Garmin is 90% hype, 10% results. If they'd spend half as much time racing as they do yapping, they might get more results.


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

32and3cross said:


> You do realize the Matt White was calling the shots that day in the car JV was not he person that made that call.


No my understanding was JV was team manager at the time and Phil Liggett's and others comments put, what I thought was the onus on JV, who, again this was my understanding, first had no response, then made a remark about Wiggo losing too much time.

_However, Garmin team manager Jonathan Vaughters denied the insinuations against his team. He argued that the tempo his team rode at the front was to avoid ``a split'' in the peloton that could have seen their top overall placed rider - Briton Bradley Wiggins (sixth at 46 seconds) - lose time._

I hadn't heard Matt's name in any of the commentary


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## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

55x11 said:


> this is great, finally Garmin achieves something - anything - in the Tour. I'd say this makes up for about 10% of the gap between hype and results for Garmin. 90% to go.


Exactly.


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## krott5333 (Oct 2, 2009)

I'll be hating on all the American teams if it means they'll do as good as they did today.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

robdamanii said:


> Racing for top 10 is lame. Nobody cares who was 5th in the tour in a couple years. Nobody cares who was 10th last year. They claim to be racing for stages, but they botch half their leadout trains, and the other half of the time Farrar can't figure out where to be positioned, and (with the exception of today) their TT efforts are always a day late and a dollar short.
> 
> Garmin is 90% hype, 10% results. If they'd spend half as much time racing as they do yapping, they might get more results.


Right cause the results they had this year were terrible.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

I hope they get a chance to chase big George down again just to get the haters all hot and bothered again.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

32and3cross said:


> Right cause the results they had this year were terrible.


Garmin:
1st, Australian National Time Trial Championships: Cameron Meyer 
1st, Australian National Road Race Championships: Jack Bobridge 
1st, USA National Championship time trial: David Zabriskie
1st, Overall Tour Down Under: Cameron Meyer
1st Stage 4 Tour Down Under
1st Stages 2 and 3 Tour of Qatar: Heinrich Haussler
1st Paris–Roubaix: Johan Vansummeren
1st, Team classification Tour de Romandie
1st Stage 2 TTT Tour de France

7 stages, 1 team classification, not counting nationals.
That's pretty poor compared to:

Thomas Voeckler:
1st Overall Tour du Haut Var
1st Overall Four Days of Dunkirk
1st Stage 4 Four Days of Dunkirk
1st Stage 1 Tour Méditerranéen
1st Stage 4 Paris-Nice
1st Stage 8 Paris-Nice
1st Cholet-Pays de Loire
1st Stage 2 Giro del Trentino

2 overall wins, 6 stages.

Howabout Philippe Gilbert?

1st National Road Race Champion
1st Overall Tour of Belgium
1st Stage 3
1st Overall Ster ZLM Toer
1st Stage 4
1st Stage 1 Tour de France , Yellow Jersey wearer 
1st Liège–Bastogne–Liège
1st Amstel Gold Race
1st La Flèche Wallonne
1st Montepaschi Strade Bianche
1st Brabantse Pijl
1st Stage 5 Tirreno-Adriatico
1st Stage 1 Volta ao Algarve

2 overall wins, 10 stages/races (not counting nationals)

Or compare to HTC:

Cancer Council Helpline Classic	National event Matthew Goss (AUS)
Tour Down Under, Stage 1	UCI World Tour Matthew Goss (AUS)	
Tour Down Under, Sprints classification	UCI World Tour Matthew Goss (AUS) 
Tour of Qatar, Stage 4	UCI Asia Tour Mark Renshaw (AUS)
Tour of Qatar, Overall	UCI Asia Tour Mark Renshaw (AUS)
Tour of Oman, Stage 2	UCI Asia Tour Matthew Goss (AUS)
Volta ao Algarve, Stage 2	UCI Europe Tour John Degenkolb (GER)
Tour of Oman, Stage 6	UCI Asia Tour Mark Cavendish (GBR)
Volta ao Algarve, Stage 5	UCI Europe Tour Tony Martin (GER)
Volta ao Algarve, Overall	UCI Europe Tour Tony Martin (GER)
Volta ao Algarve, Teams classification	UCI Europe Tour	[N 1]
Driedaagse van West-Vlaanderen, Stage 1	UCI Europe Tour John Degenkolb (GER) 
Paris–Nice, Stage 3	UCI World Tour Matthew Goss (AUS)	
Paris–Nice, Stage 6	UCI World Tour Tony Martin (GER)
Paris–Nice, Overall	UCI World Tour Tony Martin (GER)
Milan – San Remo	UCI World Tour Matthew Goss (AUS)
Volta a Catalunya, Stage 1	UCI World Tour Gatis Smukulis (LAT)
Scheldeprijs	UCI Europe Tour Mark Cavendish (GBR)
Tour of the Basque Country, Stage 6	UCI World Tour Tony Martin (GER)
Tour of the Basque Country, Mountains classification	UCI World Tour Michael Albasini (SUI)
Eschborn-Frankfurt City Loop	UCI Europe Tour John Degenkolb (GER) 
Giro d'Italia, Stage 1	UCI World Tour	Team time trial[N 2]
Giro d'Italia, Stage 10	UCI World Tour Mark Cavendish (GBR)
Giro d'Italia, Stage 12	UCI World Tour Mark Cavendish (GBR)
Tour of California, Stage 8	UCI America Tour Matthew Goss (AUS)	
Tour of California, Young rider classification	UCI America Tour Tejay van Garderen (USA)
Bayern-Rundfahrt, Stage 2	UCI Europe Tour John Degenkolb (GER)
Bayern-Rundfahrt, Stage 3	UCI Europe Tour Michael Albasini (SUI)
Giro d'Italia, Fair Play Teams classification	UCI World Tour	[N 3]
Philadelphia International Championship	UCI America Tour Alex Rasmussen (DEN)
Critérium du Dauphiné, Stage 2	UCI World Tour John Degenkolb (GER)
Critérium du Dauphiné, Stage 3	UCI World Tour Tony Martin (GER)
Critérium du Dauphiné, Stage 4	UCI World Tour John Degenkolb (GER)
Ster ZLM Toer, Stage 1	UCI Europe Tour Patrick Gretsch (GER)
Ster ZLM Toer, Stage 5	UCI Europe Tour Leigh Howard (AUS)

I count 37 wins by HTC.

You want to talk UCI ranking? Fine, 12th place. The only teams they're better than would be:
LIQUIGAS-CANNONDALE (LIQ)	ITA
MOVISTAR TEAM (MOV)	ESP	
EUSKALTEL-EUSKADI (EUS)	ESP	
AG2R LA MONDIALE (ALM)	FRA	
QUICKSTEP CYCLING TEAM (QST)	BEL	
VACANSOLEIL-DCM PRO CYCLING TEAM (VCD)

That's quite a placing, having beaten Euskaltel and Vacansoleil. 

Garmin is nothing but talk. Winning TdU (which took a little bit of luck) and Paris Roubaix was their saving grace this year.

Hate to break it to you, Garmin has not matured into the team that showed so much promise a few years ago, and I don't think they ever will under Vaughter's control.


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## mtrider05 (Aug 8, 2009)

DZ won ToC TT.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

robdamanii said:


> .


Right on, thanks for careful analysis.

Funny quote about Vaughters from 
BikeSnob blog:

".. and director Jonathan Vaughters would tell his riders to do stuff like ride fast and not get dropped, showing the world why he is a tactical mastermind."


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

55x11 said:


> Right on, thanks for careful analysis.
> 
> Funny quote about Vaughters from
> BikeSnob blog:
> ...


compared to Saiz that is pure poetry.


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Your whole post is crap. You didn't list Tyler's wins. Thor's latest win. Dan Martin's, Murilo Fischers, or Michael Kreder's.

You didn't mention Millar's pink jersey or his stage win at the Giro.
You have no credibility.



robdamanii said:


> Garmin:
> 1st, Australian National Time Trial Championships: Cameron Meyer
> 1st, Australian National Road Race Championships: Jack Bobridge
> 1st, USA National Championship time trial: David Zabriskie
> ...


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

DZfan14 said:


> Your whole post is crap. You didn't list Tyler's wins. Thor's latest win. Dan Martin's, Murilo Fischers, or Michael Kreder's.
> 
> You didn't mention Millar's pink jersey or his stage win at the Giro.
> You have no credibility.


Yeah, you're right. I pulled the stats off a cut and paste and didn't catch the missed ones. My fault completely.

So let's correct it then.

1st, Australian National Time Trial Championships: Cameron Meyer 
1st, Australian National Road Race Championships: Jack Bobridge 
1st, USA National Championship time trial: David Zabriskie
1st, Overall Tour Down Under: Cameron Meyer
1st Stage 4 Tour Down Under
1st Stages 2 and 3 Tour of Qatar: Heinrich Haussler
1st, Stage 2 Tirreno Adriatico: Tyler Farrar
1st Paris–Roubaix: Johan Vansummeren
1st, Team classification Tour de Romandie
1st, Stage 6 (ITT), Tour of California: David Zabriskie
1st, Stage 21 (ITT), Giro d'Italia: David Millar
1st, Giro della Toscana: Dan Martin
1st, Stage 4, Tour de Suisse: Thor Hushovd
1st, Stage 2 Ster ZLM Toer: Tyler Farrar
1st Stage 2 TTT Tour de France

Now, DZnuts, why don't you explain why your star team is 12th on the UCI teams ranking? They're so damn good, it must be more conspiracy, eh? Must be the UCI out to get them, right? 

Or it could be that they've always been, and always will be a bunch of second place finishers. Whine and complain all you want, 11 teams are better then your goofy, lovable also rans.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)




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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

88 rex said:


>


You're one to talk, Mr. PO.


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)




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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

88 rex said:


>


Self portrait of yours?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

I wish I looked that good.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*

Consider this a warning to everyone in the thread-- enough.


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