# Stiff Titanium Frame



## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes, I'm about to pull the trigger but I have no idea what to get. Here is the list of the frames that I'm considering.

Litespeed Vortex Compact(I heard that this is one of the stiffest Ti frame you can get but damn...this is expensive. Oh this is full 6al/4v Ti though)
Strong Ti (I don't know how stiff this can be wih round tubes. what's the waiting time for a frame? Is it possible to get a frame with shaped tubes? )
Lynskey L3(I don't know anything about this company but, I like their welds )
Moots (Maybe.....prolly not)
Seven(I think they overcharge )


Anything else? 

Let me know what you think......:thumbsup:


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## FTMD (Sep 20, 2002)

I just got my new Strong ti frame. I'm also over 200lbs. I do most of my climbing out of the saddle as well. 

It's plenty stiff. Carl will ovalise the downtube near the bb junction, perhaps it adds stiffness perhaps it doesn't.  But the frame doesn't move under me at all.

Give him a call. Very friendly guy to talk to.

BTW...I had a VaMoots, and it was stiff as well. Can't tell a difference between the Strong and the Moots in that regard. 

Hope this helps.


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## otiebob (Jun 25, 2002)

Also consider the Douglas 6/4 Compact from Colorado Cyclist - stiff, US-made, and less than the others you list.


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## Mattbikeboy (Feb 18, 2004)

I'm riding the 2004 Litespeed Tuscany and it doesn't have any problems with frame flex under power (climbing or sprinting). I ride pretty smooth and the only time I really notice frame flex is when I hit an expansion joint or rough patch in the road (and that kind of flex is really appreciated). I weigh around 230 lbs and have some power. My guess would be that the Vortex Compact would be very good. You could also look for a 2006 Tuscany closeout.

mbb


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## scorpionking (Mar 10, 2002)

Carl Strong would have no problem making a Ti bike as stiff as you want, as another member said he does things like ovalizing his tubes near the bottom bracket and he'll surely choose tubes that are more than stiff enough if you are honest with him regarding your size and usage. Look at his owners gallery photos and comments. He has built some very large ti frames for some very big fellows and they seem to love their bikes as far as ride quality goes. His prices are also very reasonable when compared with some other boutique ti builders.


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## cptab (Sep 12, 2002)

*Merlin Works*



otiebob said:


> Also consider the Douglas 6/4 Compact from Colorado Cyclist - stiff, US-made, and less than the others you list.


The Merlin Works CR made by your peeps at Litespeed is in the same price range and is supposed to be quite stiff based on the new tube sets. Based on my weight and the minimal miles I've put on it thus far, I can't provide enough feedback related stiffness, but I think some of the articles linked below spend some time on it. No...I'm not a shill for Merlin. Good luck. Certainly the models you already listed have great reputations.

http://www.merlinbike.com/2006/works/reviews.aspx


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## TACSTS (Feb 4, 2004)

Give Dean bikes a call. They can do up to a 2" diameter downtube and 1" stays. I've got a 59cm (c-c) El Diente that is 3/2.5 straight-gauge Ti with a 1.75" DT and 1" stays that is pretty darn stiff for my 160lbs. I like it like that, but it's probably not the ideal double century ride. I don't think many would find it too soft, especially if you went for the 2" DT.


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## steel fan (Dec 29, 2006)

*strong for sure*

I'm awaiting my 2nd strong frame in 4 years, his lead about 16-18 weeks right now. Call him up! I know he can build you a stiff Ti or steel frame, no problem.

Keep in mind that stiff Ti = heavy Ti, nothing's free. Tube diameters will have to go up.

Carl is among the top TIG welders in the biz and is great to work with.


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## Metz (Aug 31, 2005)

I just had a Seven Axiom SG built up and have been racing on it. I think it is just as stiff in the BB and stiffer on the front end than the Pinarello F4:13 that it replaced. I am 6-4, 190 (yea...I lost 5 lbs!) and have no flex issues. As others have said if you go custom they can build it as stiff as you want it to be. I agree that Seven is pricey but I feel it was worth it, however I have a hard time fitting on standard sizes due to my arm and leg length so that was a big reason I went custom.


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## corky (Feb 5, 2005)

Indy Fab.... they'll make you one however you want it.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

I want to be clear about the flex issue. I've had a couple of frames that flex lateral more than vertically. Previously, I had a Firenze frame that robbed so much power from my legs when I climb, I had to get rid of it after 1000miles.

Indy Fab- I hear that they get pretty expensive if you customize.

Seven- I have a friend who owns Ellium Race. I thought that frame wasn't worth 10grand. It rode like other frames that cost significantly less.

Dean- I heard some horror service issues with the company. That's not good......

Merlin- I still don't understand where Merlin stands. If LS is equvalent of Honda, Merlin would be Acura? I believe Vortex costs more than the CR Works though. Very confusing.

Strong- If I have to wait 16 weeks, I'll take my business somewhere else. I don't like the concept of waiting when I'm willing to pay since there is a lot of talented frame builders out there. I'll probably never own Sachs or Vanilla. oh well......


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

linus said:


> Yes, I'm about to pull the trigger but I have no idea what to get. Here is the list of the frames that I'm considering.
> 
> Litespeed Vortex Compact(I heard that this is one of the stiffest Ti frame you can get but damn...this is expensive. Oh this is full 6al/4v Ti though)
> Strong Ti (I don't know how stiff this can be wih round tubes. what's the waiting time for a frame? Is it possible to get a frame with shaped tubes? )
> ...


Well if your looking at another Litespeed and worried about stiffness, I'd probably look at the Siena. According to recent posts about their new cycling team the Vortex is more of a stage race frame while the Siena is the stiffer sprinters bike. Of course you could have them do a custom if you like.

As for Dean, they have to be one of the best deals in ti out there. I know they had some CS issues a few years ago but I can tell you that I had very good dealings with them during and after the sale. 

Moots is also a great option and the stock Vamoots is plenty stiff for most folks. I sold mine b/c it never fit right. If the geo works for you give them a look.

I concur about Seven (and Serotta IMO) being over priced for what your actually getting. 

Kish also makes a nice frame but I'm not a fan of his welding style, too thick for my taste. You also might look at DeSalvo if ok with straight guage tubing.

I recently purchased a new frame and narrowed it down to either Lynskey or Strong. Both are drop dead sexy and I know that I could have been happy with either, in the end the weight, the manipulated tube shapes of the L3 and their southern roots forced my to go with the boys from TN. 

Just my 2 cents, good luck.


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

I think stiff frames are available from many manufacturers and botique builders can be found at reasonable costs. I'm very impressed with the Titus Solera I've been riding and it has very beefy tubes giving me a very stiff frame. Their prices are also very reasonable and I ride a bike brand that no one else rides in my area nor have I ever seen another on the roads anywhere.


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

*Stiffness of Litespeed Bike Models*

I am in the process of replacing an older Vortex that was detroyed. Litespeed's sales department sent me an e-mail stating the following:


> there’s a misconception that [the Vortex] is one of our stiffer, leaner, meaner road race bikes. To the cyclist it was designed for (super elite stage racer, great climber, will rarely contest a sprint) it is. To the guy expecting low defection numbers in a laboratory, it isn’t.
> 
> On a rating scale of 1-15 (10 being optimal for each category), I’d like to rate our bikes relative to head tube stiffness, drivetrain stiffness, handling, and genuine ride quality (focusing on a combination of lively feel without creating undue fatigue during a 2-3 hour ride.


See the chart attached to this message. Hope this helps.


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## chuckice (Aug 25, 2004)

I went thru the same process last year...ended up going with Moots after evaluating many of those same frames. That being said other than Seven I'd give them all a thumbs up (Seven is overpriced IMO). I'd definitely add Titus to that list. Here's my Moots...been a love affair for 6 months.


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## rePhil (Jun 20, 2002)

*There is an interesting thread*

On the Serotta forum regarding chainstays. I have a Moots and a Douglas Ti. The Douglas feels stiffer vertically but more compliant than the Moots torsionally. The Moots is a smoother ride, and plenty stiff.
I have a Strong Steel and wouldn't hesitate to have him build me a duplicate it in Ti.
I do think a bike can be too stiff, so be careful what you wish for.


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## singlecross (Nov 1, 2006)

+1 Carl Strong. My frame was 8 weeks from order to my door and that included Thanksgiving and the winter Holidays. I spec'd stiff for riding singlespeed (essentially sprinting into climbs and then climbing overgeared and mashing) and the bike rides great. Ovalized down and seat tubes at the BB and ovalized down tube at the head tube. NO bottom bracket flex but still a very comfortable ride on the bad pavement and gravel roads where I am.

singlecross


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## Phat&SlowVelo (Nov 27, 2004)

*now that's what I like to see!*



singlecross said:


> +1 Carl Strong. My frame was 8 weeks from order to my door and that included Thanksgiving and the winter Holidays. I spec'd stiff for riding singlespeed (essentially sprinting into climbs and then climbing overgeared and mashing) and the bike rides great. Ovalized down and seat tubes at the BB and ovalized down tube at the head tube. NO bottom bracket flex but still a very comfortable ride on the bad pavement and gravel roads where I am.
> 
> singlecross


A crosser out in the snow! TMB, you payin attention to that photo? 
to the OP, you can't go wrong with Carl, Jim Kish, Moots, lots of Ti options. I may be wrong but I think your leaning toward Litespeed, just a hunch. 
FWIW, my Moots 6/4 Compact SL is the stiffest bike I've ridden, I can be busting a full sprint, viens buldging and eye's popping out and I still cant flex it. Course I'm Phat and Slow, remember.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

linus said:


> I want to be clear about the flex issue. I've had a couple of frames that flex lateral more than vertically. Previously, I had a Firenze frame that robbed so much power from my legs when I climb, I had to get rid of it after 1000miles.


Are you sure that the flex is from the frame or from your imagination? I have never ridden a Litespeed Firenze but I understand that it is a straight gauge frame that uses some beefy diameter tubing and it is just hard to image you can flex it much; at least not to the point where you have a problem with it. You are not a pro sprinter are you? There are components on a bike that can flex beside the frame so make sure you can pinpoint the flex before concluding that it is from the frame. The bars, stem, seatpost, saddle, fork, wheels, drivetrain, your body, your imagination, all can flex while biking…If you do not really know the root cause of the flex then you might have the same problem with another frame that perceived as a stiffer frame.


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## Phat&SlowVelo (Nov 27, 2004)

*or*



tigoat said:


> Are you sure that the flex is from the frame or from your imagination? I have never ridden a Litespeed Firenze but I understand that it is a straight gauge frame that uses some beefy diameter tubing and it is just hard to image you can flex it much; at least not to the point where you have a problem with it. You are not a pro sprinter are you? There are components on a bike that can flex beside the frame so make sure you can pinpoint the flex before concluding that it is from the frame. The bars, stem, seatpost, saddle, fork, wheels, drivetrain, your body, your imagination, all can flex while biking…If you do not really know the root cause of the flex then you might have the same problem with another frame that perceived as a stiffer frame.


you could get a Holland like Tigoat's with humungous cast iron pipes  for chain stays and try to flex it.  That bike is schweet Tig. :thumbsup:


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> I concur about Seven (and Serotta IMO) being over priced for what your actually getting.


From the 2007 price sheet, a Alaris Seven is around $2300, custom geometry included, you called this overpriced?


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

Phat&SlowVelo said:


> you could get a Holland like Tigoat's with humungous cast iron pipes  for chain stays and try to flex it.  That bike is schweet Tig. :thumbsup:


That is the best statement I have seen so far in this thread.  

Actually, my Holland's wasn't the stiffer frame Bill makes, as he had another stiffer grade above mine, but being an amature rider, I wouldn't need it that stiff, just having a 1" constant diameter chainstays would be good enough for me.  Regardless, I highly recommend Bill Holland if you need a great titanium frame.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

If you want a stiff bottom bracket get the frame with the largest down tube you can find - no less than 1-1/2". And don't get one with a vertically ovalized down tube; the major axis is oriented the wrong way if you want a stiff bottom bracket. My recomendation is to find a left over Tuscany or a Siena. If you go custom remember that butted Ti is more flexi than straight gauge.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

tigoat said:


> From the 2007 price sheet, a Alaris Seven is around $2300, custom geometry included, you called this overpriced?


Yes.

Dean Vado Straight gauge ti = 1700
DeSalvo Straight gauge =1900
Lynskey L1 Custom= 2050

Yea I call it expensive/overpriced for what you get. $300 bucks will get you a nice fork or 3/4 of a custom wheelset.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes I'm sure about the flex issue of the Firenze. I had same wheels on my bikes and same tires to go with them. However, I haven't had any problems with other bikes like C-50 or Willier Scandium. I have a Douglas Ti at the moment and it rides stiff. I want stiffer lateral flex though.

FWIW, I'm not leaning towards LS. I rather have a Strong Ti or Moots. I think I should give him a call. 

I had an accident during the ride yesterday and I'm currently in a hospital bed. :cryin: One of the two rides that I have has some scratches that can't be removed since its a naked Ti. :mad2: I'm not sure if the insurance company will replace the frame for me or else but I'm not happy. :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:


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## kajukembo (Jan 20, 2003)

linus said:


> Merlin- I still don't understand where Merlin stands. If LS is equvalent of Honda, Merlin would be Acura? I believe Vortex costs more than the CR Works though. Very confusing.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> if you are at all interested in the Litespeed/Merlin product, consider a Spectrum. Tom Kellog desinged, QC and finish constructed in the Merlin shop by a hand picked torch. BEEFY stays for a very and as stiff as you'll ever need. About 8 week from order to completion. With that said, the Merlin Works is a very underrated stock frame.


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## velmingrafter (Feb 24, 2006)

I have a Seven Axiom SG that is very stiff. When I went through the design process with Seven, I told them what I wanted, and how big I am ( 6'2", 200lbs) and they delivered exactly what I wanted. The bike is simply outstanding. As far as Seven being overpriced, I don't know as I have never bought any other high end titanium frame for comparison. In the future though, I would not hesitate to buy another Seven, I think it was well worth it.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Before ABG went and screwed up the Merlin branding, now making it just another Ti bike, my LBS sales guy said to me...

"An Acura pulls in the lot, he's buying a Litespeed. A Lexus pulls in, he's buying a Merlin. Don't know why, that's just how it is."

Used to be, Merlins were pretty, refined and comfortable, and Litespeeds were the tight performance machines, all business. Now, they're both shiny bikes with gaudy stickers. Don't know how that fits into the car analogy.


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## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

*Moots*

I highly recommend Moots. Anyone can build a stiff frame. I narrowed down quality, customer service, and estetics. I like the look of Moots (decals,headbadge, dropouts, finish,clothing, seatclamp), there welds are superior, and they use top quality Ti. I've had four custom Moots in the last two years and everyone of them was magical. I've delt directly David and Brad at Moots and they definitely have the patience and knowledge to build you a stiff frame. This is my latest Custom Moots SL. This one has a brushed finish.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Interesting that litespeed in effect is saying none of their frames are stiff compared to the competition. I also wonder how they objectively measure ride comfort since their stiffest competition in both senses of the word are rated poorly for comfort, and unlike metal carbon doesn't have to make the same tradeoff between stiffness and comfort (though they frequently do).

A Lynskey 410R had one of the stiffest BB they have tested in a RIDE magazine review recently for what that's worth.

Really I don't think subjective evaluations of BB stiffness are worth much. The worst deflection any of them have in the RIDE tests are less than 0.75 millimeter and the best was less than 0.1mm. Half a mm difference worst to best is not something that would be easily felt (though the stiffest just happened to be the frame that reportedly has done in Boonen's back). Head tube deflection is more likely something that could be felt since the deflections are amplified into changes in your path down the road which can be both obvious and unnerving.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Get me out of this hospital bed!!!!

That moots has some welds man.....

You guys aren't really helping narrowing my choices. Now I'm looking Eriksen, Strong, Moots, Lynskey.........

Hey terzo, what other brands did RIDE test against the Lynskey? When you say BB flex, are you talking about vertical flex or lateral flex like I mentioned above? Very interesting.


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## mikey_mike (Feb 13, 2006)

I think if you go custom any competent frame builder can build you a stiff frame you desire. I have a Seven axiom sg which I rated them to build at 8 from the scale of 1-10, no regrets whatsoever.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Well I finally got around to taking a few shots this AM.


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## cptab (Sep 12, 2002)

linus said:


> Get me out of this hospital bed!!!!
> 
> That moots has some welds man.....
> 
> ...


Crap! Glad to hear all these Ti pictures and comments are motivating you to heal! Get well and get back on the road. Ps-what happened?


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## rePhil (Jun 20, 2002)

*I have a Douglas and a Moots*

I bought the Douglas as a low maintenance commuter.As you know it's stiff. Vertically anyway. The Moots with its all round tubes feels better and stiffer laterally. Nothing against the Douglas as it's a nice bike, but it's not a Moots.There is a difference in Ti. From my experiences I am sticking to round tubes.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

RIDE has tested basically every hot frame for the last couple years so it's a pretty broad sample. Cervelo, Cannondale, Look, Bianchi, Time, etc. Their test measures lateral flex at the BB, Headtube, and seattube/TT junction.

Tour magazine in Germany has been doing similar testing for years and some of those test results can be found on the weightweenie site, but most of them focus only on carbon and aluminum.

While the numbers are useful for comparison I don't think stiffer is always better because it still has to be rideable and getting beat up or not keeping the wheels on the ground on rough pavement make the ideal stiffness different for each rider.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

terzo rene said:


> RIDE has tested basically every hot frame for the last couple years so it's a pretty broad sample. Cervelo, Cannondale, Look, Bianchi, Time, etc. Their test measures lateral flex at the BB, Headtube, and seattube/TT junction.
> 
> Tour magazine in Germany has been doing similar testing for years and some of those test results can be found on the weightweenie site, but most of them focus only on carbon and aluminum.
> 
> While the numbers are useful for comparison I don't think stiffer is always better because it still has to be rideable and getting beat up or not keeping the wheels on the ground on rough pavement make the ideal stiffness different for each rider.


Do yo have a copy of the article? Borders is the only store around here that carries RIDE and they were out of the last issue.


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## Clevor (Sep 8, 2005)

Picshooter said:


> Nothing against the Douglas as it's a nice bike, but it's not a Moots.


I agree, you can't compare a Moots to a Douglas, but if price is a consideration, you are comparing apples and oranges. I remember Moots from my ATB days, and you are talking big bucks!!! I mean the ATB frames were priced similar to high end road frames. 

My 0.02 cents: I have a Douglas Ti too, it's my third 'beater' bike. Yup, triangulated Ti is pretty stiff. But I got the frame and Ouzo Pro fork for $899. The welds ain't shabby either; I saw a Merlin UL and a $7500 LiteSpeed Ghisallo in an LBS and I preferred the welds on the Douglas.

I also think if you go the brushed finish of the LiteSpeed, better do it right and do it consistent. I actually prefer the plain, flat matte finish of the Douglas. At least it's consistent. The brushed finish on the Ghisallo varied too much from the chainstays to the top tube (as it has to be done by hand). The overall impression I got is not what I would pay $7500 for.

But I am not a Ti connoisseur; my main rides are carbon fiber (C50 and TCR C1). I always wanted to own a Ti bike and the Douglas was cheap and fit the bill.


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## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Well I finally got around to taking a few shots this AM. QUOTE]
> 
> Beautiful bike. If I'm not mistaken you've owned a number of Ti bikes. How do they compare. Interested as I'm in the middle of building up my Dean El Diente.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Ramjm, nice bike you got there. Don't you think 32 spoke wheels are too much? Btw, are you purposely using the integrated fork on your bike? I do that since they look much beefier

cptap, I was riding on a single lane road when this car tried to pass me. He miscalculated the space between my handlebar and his mirror and you know......BAM!

My doc. said he'll let me go when they have my MRI result.:cryin:


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

jdap,

Yea I guess I'm in love with the grey stuff  I've had several off the peg bikes (one Dean Costanza, an Omega, a VaMoots, and a TST) as well as a few customs (current ride, an IF, and my Dean Vador). The Lynskey is the first custom that got it 100% right. Now don't get me wrong, the IF and my Vador's short falls were mainly due to my input when ordering custom. I'm a firm proponent that you need to be carefull what you ask for. With the IF I wanted a STIFF ride and that's what I got, too stiff laterally and vertically. For the Vador, I wanted the opposite. It rode like a dream, by far the nicest riding bike I've owned. However, the trade off was some HT and BB stiffness. The Lynskey solves both problems. It's very stiff in the BB and HT while still being very comfy with the super thin seat stays.

Linus,

This particular wheelset is my do anything/all purpose wheel and where built by Troy Watson (Ligero). They are White H1s with Sapim CX Rays and Mavic OP Ceramics. I'm anywhere b/w 175 to 180 so having strong hoops is priority. I do have a set of low spoke count Lew Carbons with White LTAs but those only come out for fast flat events/rides. As for the fork, Easton only makes one style. It's compatible with both integrated and non-integrated setups. There are no integrated specific SLX forks.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> jdap,
> 
> Yea I guess I'm in love with the grey stuff  I've had several off the peg bikes (one Dean Costanza, an Omega, a VaMoots, and a TST) as well as a few customs (current ride, an IF, and my Dean Vador). The Lynskey is the first custom that got it 100% right. Now don't get me wrong, the IF and my Vador's short falls were mainly due to my input when ordering custom. I'm a firm proponent that you need to be carefull what you ask for. With the IF I wanted a STIFF ride and that's what I got, too stiff laterally and vertically. For the Vador, I wanted the opposite. It rode like a dream, by far the nicest riding bike I've owned. However, the trade off was some HT and BB stiffness. The Lynskey solves both problems. It's very stiff in the BB and HT while still being very comfy with the super thin seat stays.
> 
> ...


Thanks

Have you noticed any flex from EC90SLX forks? I've been using Ouzo Pro forks for a while now and I really like them other than their weight(450g). I want to try EC90 forks but some reviewer mentioned that they flex. 

Oh I didn't know they only make one style forks. They look beefy enough.:thumbsup: 

Once again, nice ride man.:thumbsup:


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

linus said:


> Thanks
> 
> Have you noticed any flex from EC90SLX forks? I've been using Ouzo Pro forks for a while now and I really like them other than their weight(450g). I want to try EC90 forks but some reviewer mentioned that they flex.
> 
> ...


Flex? A bit but not so much that I'd swap it out. At one point I was ready to but then I started thinking the culprit was a combination of a moderately stiff HT (on my Vador not Lynskey), a skinny Syntace F117 stem, and Flexy carbon bars. I changed them out one at a time and found much of the problem was the stem and bars. I suspect much of the blame given to the fork actually belongs to trendy carbon bars and uberlight stems mated with low spoke count front wheels. Matched with STIFF FSA Wing Pro shallow handlebars and a rock solid Deda Newton the front end is super stable with only a hint of flex. I think the comfort and weight are good compramises compared to other forks. Besides if it was good enough for Floyd (and I'm sure he could have gotten a differnent fork if he pissed and moaned hard enough) I'm certain its good enough for me. I have a Reynolds on my custom carbon rig and had one on my IF. It is a more laterally stiff fork but I give the SLX a slight nod on comfort. Having said that I'd love to get my hands on the new Reynolds UL and give that fork a try.


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

linus said:


> Thanks
> 
> Have you noticed any flex from EC90SLX forks? I've been using Ouzo Pro forks for a while now and I really like them other than their weight(450g). I want to try EC90 forks but some reviewer mentioned that they flex.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should take a look at the new Reynolds ultralight ("UL") fork.

http://www.reynoldscycling.com/products_forks_ul.html

In another discussion (that I cannot locate) Tom Kellogg -- who had a hand in the design and development of the Reynolds UL -- indicated that the UL is at least as stiff and as strong as the Ouzo Pro, not to mention 100 grams lighter. He even recommended the UL fork for larger riders!

From his website (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/65.htm):

_"The UL is by far, the highest high performance Hyper Light fork ever made. With the steerer cut to 200mm, the UL weighs in at 270gr. The lightest fork which can match all of its stiffness characteristics weighs over 100gr. more. The other forks in its weight calss are MUCH more flexable both laterally and torsionally"_

I have one coming on my new Lynskey Level IV!


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Flex? A bit but not so much that I'd swap it out. At one point I was ready to but then I started thinking the culprit was a combination of a moderately stiff HT (on my Vador not Lynskey), a skinny Syntace F117 stem, and Flexy carbon bars. I changed them out one at a time and found much of the problem was the stem and bars. I suspect much of the blame given to the fork actually belongs to trendy carbon bars and uberlight stems mated with low spoke count front wheels. Matched with STIFF FSA Wing Pro shallow handlebars and a rock solid Deda Newton the front end is super stable with only a hint of flex. I think the comfort and weight are good compramises compared to other forks. Besides if it was good enough for Floyd (and I'm sure he could have gotten a differnent fork if he pissed and moaned hard enough) I'm certain its good enough for me. I have a Reynolds on my custom carbon rig and had one on my IF. It is a more laterally stiff fork but I give the SLX a slight nod on comfort. Having said that I'd love to get my hands on the new Reynolds UL and give that fork a try.


You know what? I totally forgot about the UL.:idea: Thanks I guess I'll give UL a try....


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Yea both you and djg21 should do that. I don't know anyone here who has one and I'd be intrested to see what the consensus is. I'm on the fence about Reynolds new graphics but if you go custom paint on the frame and fork that would solve that issue.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

djg21 said:


> Maybe you should take a look at the new Reynolds ultralight ("UL") fork.
> 
> http://www.reynoldscycling.com/products_forks_ul.html
> 
> ...


You have Lynskey coming as well? Good for you.

I'll get the UL fork for sure.


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> Yea both you and djg21 should do that. I don't know anyone here who has one and I'd be intrested to see what the consensus is. I'm on the fence about Reynolds new graphics but if you go custom paint on the frame and fork that would solve that issue.


I prefer naked ti and the regular unfinished fork. My painted bikes always end up chipped and scratched. Ti I can clean upwith a dash of Rolite polish and some scotch-brite, I never really considered the cosmetic of a the fork. then again, bikes are tools and the cosmetics doesn;t matter, isn't that right?


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

linus said:


> You have Lynskey coming as well?


I essentially traded the left side of my face for this bike, and the driver's insurance has done its best to make things "right." So I figured that I would spoil myself!


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## Phat&SlowVelo (Nov 27, 2004)

*Zippi*



zippi said:


> I highly recommend Moots. Anyone can build a stiff frame. I narrowed down quality, customer service, and estetics. I like the look of Moots (decals,headbadge, dropouts, finish,clothing, seatclamp), there welds are superior, and they use top quality Ti. I've had four custom Moots in the last two years and everyone of them was magical. I've delt directly David and Brad at Moots and they definitely have the patience and knowledge to build you a stiff frame. This is my latest Custom Moots SL. This one has a brushed finish.


that is the sexiest Moots I've ever seen! Bravo. 

Ramjn's Lynsky aint bad either.


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## Spanky Malone (Jun 23, 2006)

*All Ti is not the same, but they can all be compared....*

I think you've already considered the most important attributes of your next frame, and there is some really good information in this thread (specifically ordering custom) that should help you narrow down your choices. However, I feel like much of it is purely subjective and quite a good bit is certainly a placebo effect on a several thousand dollar _*frameset*_ purchase. Being in tune with what you want and being able to notice or appreciate geometry or subtle differences in frames is very difficult, but if you can put your finger on a certain type of ride quality and communicate that to a custom builder verbally, you'll be riding the bike of your dreams in a few short weeks.

With that being said, I think it's very fair to compare *any* Ti frame to any other. But what most affects ride quality and stiffness is all in the tubes. Yeah some welds look better than others, and sure, some graphics are more sophisticated, but hey.... it's all about what you're after. Why do they make Ferraris in yellow? I don't know, I'd never buy one.... But you sure do notice one out on the road don't you? They definitely stand out!

*Firstly, decide what geometry you want and if it's worth the expense to go custom.* As others have said, consider this ONLY if you can _truly articulate what makes the perfect riding frame (for you)._ If not, stick with off-the-shelf geometry as you'll usually end up with something you'll end up hating. Building a bike out of tubes is a compromise, like everything else in life.... you're just looking for the BEST compromise for you. If you want it stiff, they'll make it stiff, but at the expense of something else (like ride quality/vertical compliance).

Yeah, yeah, lots of small frame builders offer "custom options" but typically they're more expensive frames too (standard size or not). I can appreciate a Moots or IF (or Vanilla/Omega/Titus/Strong), and often lust after Sevens too.... 

*Secondly, consider which material best suits the ride quality you're after.* 6/4 is often heralded as the supreme titanium, but traditionally, 3/2.5 titanium offers a more comfortable ride. 3/2.5 titanium (until recently with triple-butted tubing) is rarely as light as a similar frame size/style, and 6/4 is almost always more expensive because it's more difficult to work, and therefore is harder on the machinery. Until recently it was also difficult to source as 6/4 tubing, given the tolerances & quality demands (impurities, etc.), which is why for many years (and perhaps even today), Litespeed offered manipulated tube shapes... they're tubing is made from sheets of 6/4, not tubes of it. Reynolds has changed all that.

What you buy should be a direct reflection of your desired ride characteristics. A Vortex would probably be a poor choice, as would most 6/4 frames. I would think 3/2.5 would suit your needs better, but then you've got to decide which shaping or butting will offer the ride you're after without sacrificing the things you really need (like stiffness).

*Thirdly, consider the experience you want your money to buy.* Do you want something everyone stares at during the local group rides? Looking for respect, showing off your bank account, or generally establishing dominance or success? Do you want a high-level of exclusivity? Ti bikes seem to have fallen out of favor as the material of choice in high-end frame construction. They _are_ wicked expensive! I don't see many on the various rides I do, and almost never see one like mine (an '05 Vortex). The local shop sells Seven, so a few of the shop monkeys have those, but otherwise mine is usually the only other Ti bike... lost in a sea of carbon Giants, Trek Madones and the occasional Scott, BMC or Specialized.

Consider this: Would you prefer talking with the owner when placing your order, or an operator? Sure there's some satisfaction when buying from the "little guy" or a master craftsman that will build your frame "with love." But there's also something to be said for a company like Litespeed or Merlin whom have been successful long enough to offer very high quality at a reduced price. Just look at the way Walmart does business if you don't know what I mean. Don't forget that many of these "small builders" were once part-owners, executives, and even co-founders of companies like Litespeed and Merlin.

Aside from the tubing (which is the real ride quality), and geometry (which either helps or hurts the tubing), your experience is the only other thing affecting the buying experience, and will ultimately determine your level of satisfaction with the purchase. Finish options and "quality of welds" hype aside, what will give YOU the greatest pleasure? Any frame can have sexy welds, a fancy boutique name, and a hefty price tag.... but if it rides like a dumptruck, you won't be happy.

 

Those are my experiences, and together with another dollar or so, might buy you a cup of coffee somewhere. It isn't much, I know! Certainly my Vortex isn't the bling-blingest frame or the best for multi-day road races, weekend hammer-fests, and the occasional double-metric. For me, the performance for the price was worth it, and since I was shopping for 6/4 bikes, it most closely suited my needs. It's not perfect... but the more miles I put on my Vortex, the more I can objectively appreciate it's (very few) shortcomings. 

HTH.

-SM




BTW----> Glad you're doing OK after a crash like that.... Hang in there!


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

linus said:


> You have Lynskey coming as well? Good for you.
> 
> I'll get the UL fork for sure.


Linus,

Just so you know, the UL is just like the SLX in that it only comes in a universal nonintegrated/integrated crown. That's unlike the ouzo pro wich have 2 seperate models.

JR


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Spanky Malone said:


> ...6/4 is often heralded as the supreme titanium, but traditionally, 3/2.5 titanium offers a more comfortable ride. 3/2.5 titanium (until recently with triple-butted tubing) is rarely as light as a similar frame size/style, and 6/4 is almost always more expensive because it's more difficult to work, and therefore is harder on the machinery. Until recently it was also difficult to source as 6/4 tubing, given the tolerances & quality demands (impurities, etc.), which is why for many years (and perhaps even today), Litespeed offered manipulated tube shapes... they're tubing is made from sheets of 6/4, not tubes of it. Reynolds has changed all that.


Spanky,

Well said. Another thing to consider is the fact that 6/4 frames are usually not 6/4 frames. Rather a front triangle or just TT and DT of 6/4 with a rear and/or remaining tubes of 3/2.5 to smooth out the ride. I can only think of a few full 6/4 ti frames (I'm thinking Douglas had one) still around and the ones that are considered the most comfortable are mixed ti. While unsure of the Vortex, the Vamoots SL and the Lynskey L4 are examples of this. Another thing to consider is weight. My L3 actually weighed less (by 4-5 grams) in a lke size than a competitors 6/4 frame. The weight difference is a wash when you factor in using a 3/2.5 rear end.


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## Spanky Malone (Jun 23, 2006)

Those are good points. Personally, I was only considering FULL 6/4 frames in my purchase. There weren't alot of choices, which is why I ended up with a Vortex (it's FULL 6/4 Ti). But you're right since it's so expensive to work 6/4 titanium (it's very hard on the tooling, especially when making tiny things like seat-stays). Most manufacturers whom sell 6/4 frames actually only construct the front triangles in 6/4 and the rear triangle in easier-to-manufacture (and more forgiving) 3/2.5 as you've mentioned. It's actually alot like getting a FULL 853 steel frame a few years ago... hardly any one made one! 

I'm fairly certain the Douglas frames are toned-down versions of Litespeed models. They don't feature the radical tube shapes (and maybe not "this" year's upgrades), but I know that ABG started producing those frames for Colorado Cyclist a few years back, and modeled them after existing frames in the Litespeed line. Merlin was also assimilated about the same time, and while I'm not familiar with what's happened recently, I do know that at one point Litespeed was making frames for quite a few people, under the guise of other brand names. Lemond comes to mind....

In retrospect, a 6/4 & 3/2.5 frame (instead of my full 6/4 Vortex) would've been a better choice for the riding I do and could have saved me a few bucks as well. However, for the technology and performance I got, I feel like my money was well spent. I doubt I could've ended up with a triple-butted Seven or Moots Vamoots SL Compact for anywhere near what I bought my Vortex for.... The Vortex geometry matched one of my favorite road bikes very closely also, so that helped seal the deal.

It's certainly not comparable to a sub-900 gram carbon frame, but the ride is light-years ahead of any carbon bike I own (or have owned)! My Vortex is lighter than most titanium frames too, tipping the scales at an impressive 1127g for a 57cm frame!!!

 


I'd love to try a Moots, IF, or Strong but will probably lean towards a mixed frame later this season.... likely Ti and Carbon -- maybe a Seven ID8 or Titus Exogrid. I've always liked those Lemond Tete de Course frames....

:thumbsup:


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## cat4rider (Nov 10, 2006)

*single*

Singlecross, that is the most drop dead sexy bike, other than mine, i've seen. Carl, i'm selling the kids, and calling you for a fitting.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Okay.....so the hospital released me yesterday so I'm back to riding mode sans the bike. 

I'm leaning towards Vortex since they are easier to get. I don't know whether I want Lynskey 410R(I don't need custom geometry) or not. I was considering Moots compact SL but the local distributor wants $5K for a frame so Moots is out.

I'm going to pull the trigger this week so whether I get a LS or a Lynskey, I'm sure I'll be happy. 

Now I have one more decision to make. Sram or Shimano(Sorry Campy lovers, I'm not a Campy guy)


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Vortex has a vertically ovalized down tube which based on the design will make the bike ride rough because the oval shape is oriented vertically thus it will resist vertical flexing. At the same time, the tall oval down tube will do very little to resist sideways flexing at the bottom bracket. Worst of both worlds. Don't get me wrong, the Vortex is a fine frame. It's just that there are better choices if you want a stiff bottom bracket and/or that nice smooth Ti ride everyone talks about.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

Nessism said:


> Vortex has a vertically ovalized down tube which based on the design will make the bike ride rough because the oval shape is oriented vertically thus it will resist vertical flexing. At the same time, the tall oval down tube will do very little to resist sideways flexing at the bottom bracket. Worst of both worlds. Don't get me wrong, the Vortex is a fine frame. It's just that there are better choices if you want a stiff bottom bracket and/or that nice smooth Ti ride everyone talks about.


So you are saying Lynskey's top of the line L4 and 410R are worst of both world?  

I saw the article terzo rene talked about and it is quite opposite of what you just said.


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

linus said:


> So you are saying Lynskey's top of the line L4 and 410R are worst of both world?
> 
> I saw the article terzo rene talked about and it is quite opposite of what you just said.


That is why Litespeed states that the Siena actually has a stiffer drivetrain,

I think that you are wrong with respect to Lynskey however. The Lynskey Level 4 downtube is not vertically ovalized. If you look closely, it is more of a biaxial design: ovalized vertically at the headtube and horizontally at the bottom bracket.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

*What?*



djg21 said:


> That is why Litespeed states that the Siena actually has a stiffer drivetrain,
> 
> I think that you are wrong with respect to Lynskey however. The Lynskey Level 4 downtube is not vertically ovalized. *If you look closely, it is more of a biaxial design: ovalized vertically at the headtube and horizontally at the bottom bracket*.


How can you tell from the side pic.? The picture isn't 3D.

Take a look at this pic and tell me what you are saying is true.......Not really eh?


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

linus said:


> So you are saying Lynskey's top of the line L4 and 410R are worst of both world?
> 
> I saw the article terzo rene talked about and it is quite opposite of what you just said.


I think Nessism is referring to the concept of moment of inertia or precisely polar moment of inertia. What a smart guy! It has something to do with the shape of the tubing and its torsional resistant. Do a Google search to read upon this concept. If stiffness is very important to you then you should get a straight gauge frame made of the largest diameter round tubing possible.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

tigoat said:


> I think Nessism is referring to the concept of moment of inertia or precisely polar moment of inertia. What a smart guy! It has something to do with the shape of the tubing and its torsional resistant. Do a Google search to read upon this concept. If stiffness is very important to you then you should get a straight gauge frame made of the largest diameter round tubing possible.



Tigoat gets it! :thumbsup: 

The moment of inertia can be thought of as a shape factor. An oval tube resists flexing better in the direction of it's major axis. So again, aero shaped down tubes are not the best if you value lateral stiffness at the bottom bracket.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

I'm sorry but you guys aren't really convincing. You guys are under estimating how much I've reseached. Nessism, there are many more reasons why shaped(not just ovalizing) tubes are stiffer(not just in the direction of it's major axis). You might want to read up some more. Lynskey and Litespeed aren't really dumb as you think.


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

linus said:


> How can you tell from the side pic.? The picture isn't 3D.
> 
> Take a look at this pic and tell me what you are saying is true.......Not really eh?


Yes really! As least the Level 4 customs are avaiable with biaxial downtubes. It's a little more obvious here, eh?


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

djg21 said:


> Yes really! As least the Level 4 customs are avaiable with biaxial downtubes. It's a little more obvious here, eh?



This is the shape you want! That tall oval shape, aka Vortex, is more marketing driven than functionaly driven.

As far as Lynskey goes, those dropouts look scary thin to me (my opinion of course).


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Nessism said:


> Tigoat gets it! :thumbsup:
> 
> The moment of inertia can be thought of as a shape factor. An oval tube resists flexing better in the direction of it's major axis. So again, aero shaped down tubes are not the best if you value lateral stiffness at the bottom bracket.


The L4 has a very stiff bottom bracket.

http://www.trickbits.ashop.com.au/UserFiles/273-Files/File/p192-193 (Test 04 - Lynskey).pdf



Nessism said:


> This is the shape you want! That tall oval shape, aka Vortex, is more marketing driven than functionaly driven.
> 
> As far as Lynskey goes, those dropouts look scary thin to me (my opinion of course).


This isn't the first time you've mentioned this opinion and your surely entitled to it but you never substantiate it. I've never seen a ti frame fail at the dropout. In fact after the last time you posted about the thin dropouts, I went an measured my Columbus SLX steelie, guess what, there about the same thickness. I'd imagine 6/4 ti is a fairly bit stronger than Cromo and the frame is over 20 years old and still plenty stiff in the rear dropouts. If you look at deisns like Vanilla, you'll see other builders using even more ornate droups. I suspect it's less of an issue than you think.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I gotta say*



tigoat said:


> That is the best statement I have seen so far in this thread.
> 
> Actually, my Holland's wasn't the stiffer frame Bill makes, as he had another stiffer grade above mine, but being an amature rider, I wouldn't need it that stiff, just having a 1" constant diameter chainstays would be good enough for me.  Regardless, I highly recommend Bill Holland if you need a great titanium frame.


I've never had a thing for Ti, but when I saw yours Ti Goat with those pipes. something moved down there

I'd have lost it if it was running breeze drop outs (my personal taste)

if I ever go Ti it will be Bill


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## spookyload (Jan 30, 2004)

linus said:


> I'm sorry but you guys aren't really convincing. You guys are under estimating how much I've reseached. Nessism, there are many more reasons why shaped(not just ovalizing) tubes are stiffer(not just in the direction of it's major axis). You might want to read up some more. Lynskey and Litespeed aren't really dumb as you think.


He is right. You never know when you will need to crank out 800 watts on a group ride or a training ride at 18 mph. Shaped tubes would make all the difference. Fess up fellas...we buy them because they look cool. The average rider on this forum doesn't really require the super high end features they shop for, but buy them because we like them and treat ourselves.


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## tigoat (Jun 6, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> I've never had a thing for Ti, but when I saw yours Ti Goat with those pipes. something moved down there
> 
> I'd have lost it if it was running breeze drop outs (my personal taste)
> 
> if I ever go Ti it will be Bill


Yeah I find myself stearing at those 1" constant diameter pipes often times, as they are very impressive. Those bullet shape dropout connections also look very pleasing to the eyes. Since I already have a Moots with Beazer style dropouts, I like my Holland's the way Bill got it. Tom Kellogg and Merlin also make 1" diameter stays but their version is tapered toward the back, which is not the same as Bill's version. I have heard Dean used to make 1" chainstays too but I have not seen one yet.


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Ramjm_2000 said:


> This isn't the first time you've mentioned this opinion and your surely entitled to it but you never substantiate it. I've never seen a ti frame fail at the dropout. In fact after the last time you posted about the thin dropouts, I went an measured my Columbus SLX steelie, guess what, there about the same thickness. I'd imagine 6/4 ti is a fairly bit stronger than Cromo and the frame is over 20 years old and still plenty stiff in the rear dropouts. If you look at deisns like Vanilla, you'll see other builders using even more ornate droups. I suspect it's less of an issue than you think.


6/4 Ti has very similar strength characteristics to chromium-molybdenum steel. Thing is though, those Columbus dropouts are made of 1010 or 1020 steel. :mad2: 

Yes, I've posted my dislike for Lynskey dropouts before. That's because they are the most spindly dropouts available in the market place today. I'm confident that they will not fail from normal usage, but one mishap and they will bend all to crap.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

tigoat said:


> Yeah I find myself stearing at those 1" constant diameter pipes often times, as they are very impressive. Those bullet shape dropout connections also look very pleasing to the eyes. Since I already have a Moots with Beazer style dropouts, I like my Holland's the way Bill got it. Tom Kellogg and Merlin also make 1" diameter stays but their version is tapered toward the back, which is not the same as Bill's version. I have heard Dean used to make 1" chainstays too but I have not seen one yet.


They do. I had 1" on the drive side of my Vador and 3/4 non-drive. With Breezer style dropouts no less.


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Nessism said:


> 6/4 Ti has very similar strength characteristics to chromium-molybdenum steel. Thing is though, those Columbus dropouts are made of 1010 or 1020 steel. :mad2:
> 
> Yes, I've posted my dislike for Lynskey dropouts before. That's because they are the most spindly dropouts available in the market place today. I'm confident that they will not fail from normal usage, but one mishap and they will bend all to crap.


They are Campy dropouts. And I'd be more worried about these...


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

djg21 and Nessism, here is the part where I think you guys didn't get.

http://litespeed.com/2006/tech_material.aspx

As you can see, LS states that downtube has very little amount of effect as far as vertical impact goes. Seems like sprinting and hard breaking have more to do with downtube stiffness. I don't think they pull those numbers out of their rear-ends.

FWIW, I'll be test riding Moots, LS, Merlin and Passoni soon with my wheels and saddle. Let's see if I can tell the difference.


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## linus (Mar 24, 2005)

*Excuse my language...*



Ramjm_2000 said:


> They are Campy dropouts. And I'd be more worried about these...


NICE A$$.!!:yikes:


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Yea Vanilla has got some pretty sweet dropouts, spindly looking or not (I'm being sarcastic of course). Muy yummy!


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*I remember your reasoning from the original posting*



tigoat said:


> Yeah I find myself stearing at those 1" constant diameter pipes often times, as they are very impressive. Those bullet shape dropout connections also look very pleasing to the eyes. Since I already have a Moots with Beazer style dropouts, I like my Holland's the way Bill got it. Tom Kellogg and Merlin also make 1" diameter stays but their version is tapered toward the back, which is not the same as Bill's version. I have heard Dean used to make 1" chainstays too but I have not seen one yet.


and I support it. and yes the bullets look pretty cool.
yeah Bill Makes nice Ti


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## Nessism (Feb 6, 2004)

Yea, those Vanilla dropouts are pretty fragile looking. No worse than the Lynskey's though...


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## Ramjm_2000 (Jan 29, 2005)

Nessism said:


> Yea, those Vanilla dropouts are pretty fragile looking. No worse than the Lynskey's though...


Damn those are some mighty fine lookin' dropouts  Good thing functionality and looks are independant of each other, or all those poor Vanillas, Lynskeys, or any other makers who uses pretty dropouts would be SOL. Makes you wonder how spindly looking dropouts take the abuse of disk brakes AND still mange to look good :idea: ?


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