# Anyone has experience with Avid Shorty Ultimate brakes?



## tellico climber

I have a Gary Fisher Presidio bike that I bought over a year ago which I like very much. I am not looking to change much on it as it works well for me as is. The only thing I dislike about it are the Avid Shorty 4 brakes. They are somewhat weak and require frequent pad readjustment as they wear. It appears from looking at the Avid Ultimate brakes that they have a linear travel as you pull the brake levers kind of like the old V brakes on mountain bikes do. If so, this would eliminate the frequent pad readjustment needed with my current setup. Is this so? Also, does anyone have experience with the Ultimates as to if they have good modulation and power. Furthermore, are they difficult to set up without them squealing? Thanks for any input


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## avam

My new Ultimates work great...on the road. I bought my new Hakkalugi with Ultimates at the end of cross season and did not get to ride it in a race so I can't report how they work when muddy. The front are set up wide and the rear narrow. On my first ride, I immediately had shudder the first time I applied the brakes, but it only took a minor pad adjustment and the shudder was gone. I think the power and modulation are fine for a cantilever. I can slow down or stop easily, even when screaming downhill to a corner or stop. I have no squealing. Adjustments are very easy.


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## frdfandc

The Ultimates are a sweet brake. I'd ditch the Shorty 4's and either install the Ultimates or the Tektro CR720's.


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## imba_pete

*Ultimates best*

i've used them all season and they are super. very user-friendly to set up. the easiest pad adjustment, spring adjustment, centering, barrel adjusters on the market. the pad adjustment is reason enough to use them. but they modulate and perform great too.


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## tellico climber

Thanks for your replies. That is what I wanted to hear.


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## GDNenn

The Avid Shorty Ultimates are a really well thought out 'cross brake. They are extremely easy to set up and work well in both dry and muddy conditions. I raced them the entire season here in Colorado, from the early season dust to the late season mud that was the USGP in Ft. Collins.
I don't think you'll find that frequent pad adjustment will be necessary, and power and modulation are what you would hope for in a 'cross brake.


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## ms6073

I have also switched over to Avid Shorty Ultimates and agree with the other comments about ease of setup and the braking capabilities. Curious to note that while braking was good racing on Easton EC90 SL tubulars and clinchers using the supplied SwissStop Yellow Flash pads, but I found braking to be noticeably better with 09' Reynolds Assault carbon clinchers. Also, although setup is very easy, some (myself included) came against an issue with the rear canti studs being too short thus requiring either longer studs, or as most of us did, filing away some material from the back of the brake arms but hopefully Avid has identified and rectified that with later production runs.


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## 18usc371

ms6073 said:


> I have also switched over to Avid Shorty Ultimates and agree with the other comments about ease of setup and the braking capabilities. Curious to note that while braking was good racing on Easton EC90 SL tubulars and clinchers using the supplied SwissStop Yellow Flash pads, but I found braking to be noticeably better with 09' Reynolds Assault carbon clinchers. Also, although setup is very easy, some (myself included) came against an issue with the rear canti studs being too short thus requiring either longer studs, or as most of us did, filing away some material from the back of the brake arms but hopefully Avid has identified and rectified that with later production runs.



I had the same problem with the rear canti studs. The front studs were fine - Ritchey WCS Cabron fork - but the rear - Lynskey Cooper CX - too short. Lynskey offered to swap them out, but when they measure what they had, all of their studs were the same length. I ordered longer ones from Paragon Machine Works.


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## fatroadie

I had great success with them all season long as well. I have also heard of people running into stud length issues like above too, but I believe them to be in the minority.


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## bsaunder

hands down best Canti brakes I've used yet - I've had Shimano. Tektro CR720's, spookys, several TRPs models... none of them worked as well after spending a good amount of time tweaking them. The Ultimates were pulled out of the box and thrown on after a quick glance at the instructions; haven't touched them since and am amazed at the modulation and power capability of the brakes.


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## ms6073

18usc371 said:


> I ordered longer ones from Paragon Machine Works.


I also order a couple sets from Paragon but found they were the same length as those on my 2011 TCX Advanced SL as well as the 09' Giant TCX so I simply used a fine toothed flat file to remove some material from the back of the brake body and viola.


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## 18usc371

ms6073 said:


> I also order a couple sets from Paragon but found they were the same length as those on my 2011 TCX Advanced SL as well as the 09' Giant TCX so I simply used a fine toothed flat file to remove some material from the back of the brake body and viola.



I pulled some studs off of some older bikes and they were longer, but not the right thread pitch for the Lynskey. After measuring a bunch of studs I had laying around, I discovered my Avid Ultis used the "Pre-2008" length. From PMW's site:

"For pre-2008 Shimano brakes, ask for our longer post, BR2014, as it allows 1/32" more room under the brake pivot."


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## avam

With some red bits, I think they even look pretty good.


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## enr1co

the black w/ red bits are a nice contrast but went with the more subtle grey w/ black bits to blend with my Force deraileurs:


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## helios

ms6073 said:


> I also order a couple sets from Paragon but found they were the same length as those on my 2011 TCX Advanced SL as well as the 09' Giant TCX so I simply used a fine toothed flat file to remove some material from the back of the brake body and viola.


Where did you actually file? The metal arm itself or the piece that actually sits on the boss?


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## ms6073

helios said:


> Where did you actually file? The metal arm itself or the piece that actually sits on the boss?


Referencing the image below from this thread from another site, you should be able to deduce what needs filing in order to eliminate binding. 










FYI - I have 3-pairs of these brakes (2 purchased in August 2010, 1-pair purchased in February 2011) and the newest set did not require any filing when installed on my Ridley X-Night a couple months back.


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## limba

I thought Avid solved this problem? Maybe the newer model like the ones the poster above received are slightly modified?


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## helios

Thanks for responding. I just ordered another set hoping they're right. My other set kept binding up and I thought it was frame paint on the canti boss because it was only happening on one side, I was trying to mod the bosses to make them fit. I love these brakes otherwise, but WTF how the hell does one side consistently come out longer than the other? That's crap.


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## helios

I just installed a brand new set of Shorty Ultimates purchased from Amazon. Each package is marked "2011 WK 15" which I am assuming means they were manufactured in week 15 of 2011, in other words they're brand new. They mounted up perfect on all 4 posts on my '12 CruX with none of the provided spacers. No binding, smooth as silk.


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## Magsdad

*I love mine.*

The set I bought had binding issues on my Ridley, so I went to my local shop and told them the replacement part I needed. They contacted Sram, who then sent out new backer plates for free. Took a week. This way, I didn't have to file anything down.

Get them, you'll love em.


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## Kenjifujima

All questions that I bought on my Ridley binding, so I went to my shop and told them that the replacement part I needed. They contacted Sram, which then sent the new free Backer plates. It took a week. Thus, not have to file anything.


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## krisdrum

Sorry to drag this out of the darkness, but I think I am binding and want some input. I've never used a canti with the spring cap design before, so I have no idea how they should feel or operate. I have Tektro CR720s on there now. Installed all the components of the brakes on my fork last night and figured I was golden after reading everyone say "they are easy to set-up". I measured my studs to be 22mm (Easton EC90x) and put on the appropriate washer per the instructions. Went to tension them up and they seemed pretty stiff and didn't really move. So I increased the spring tension. Now they rebound ok, but the lever feel is incredibly stiff. Am I binding? How much free movement should the brakes have on the studs? Should I try the washer designed for a shorter post? What else could be going on? Thanks.


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## helios

See the post by ms6073 and the link as well, should help you. On an older set of Ultimates I had to use a washer on one side, but not the other. On my new set I don't need any washers.


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## krisdrum

helios said:


> See the post by ms6073 and the link as well, should help you. On an older set of Ultimates I had to use a washer on one side, but not the other. On my new set I don't need any washers.


Thanks for the effort, but that really doesn't help me. My set is relatively new and the instructions show procedures for both 22 and 21 mm studs (I'm assuming an addition since issues with their earlier production run). And two differnt washers are included and recommended, depending on the length of the stud. I certainly may not have been as accurate as I could have been when measuring. And I guess I could just swap out the washers and see what happens, but I was hoping for something a bit more prescriptive.

I guess it comes back to the final questions of my post: Am I binding? How much free movement should the brakes have on the studs (with and without spring tension)? Should I try the washer designed for a shorter post? What else could be going on?

As I said, this type of canti is completely new to me, so I have nothing to judge it against to help me solve what appears to be an issue.


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## tsunayoshi

I had an issue with one of my front studs where there was binding, so I used both spacers and it solved the problem...the brakes work perfectly fine so far during one semi-intense practice session.

I set the tension as recommended in the instructions and could barely pull the levers, so I adjusted the tension so that the holes are ~ 5 & 7 o'clock for the left and right calipers respectively as looking at them from the end of the bike. So far that is working out good but I think I might increase it slightly. I am also running both front and rear in the narrow stance.

I love these brakes for their simplicity in setup & adjustment alone, that they work better than the POS stock that came with the bike is icing on the cake. I'm gonna stick with the stock pads for now but might get the kool-stop salmons if the others don't do well at race speeds, running alloy tubulars (Major Toms)


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## krisdrum

Guess I'll just play with the spacers a bit and see what shakes out.


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## alexalecu

I have just finished installing them on by cross bike. The brake bosses are 22mm long on both the frame and the fork, therefore I went with the black spacer - only to find out that the right brake bosses (on the frame and the fork too) are slightly shorter than 22 mm, which would tighten up the whole assembly (including the brake arm) when tightening the bolt.
I fixed it by filling down the washer by 0.15 mm or so (which was a real pain in the neck), enough to allow the brake arm to rotate freely when the bolt is tighten as per instructions.


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## krisdrum

Update: 21mm washer installed and wow, amazing, they move freely. Spring tension probably still needs a bit of dialing in, but I think we are on the right track. Downside: With all my fiddling yesterday and extreme tensioning, I stripped one of the fastening bolts. So I grabbed one out of the bag for the rear set, but now have to contact SRAM for a replacement to install the rear set.


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## nor

Were you able to find a new bolt? I need a new bolt and spring.

My spring kept coming out of the hole when tensioning and I hope the brake arm is still useable. Tensioning these brakes gave me problems.


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## thecatjinx

enr1co said:


> the black w/ red bits are a nice contrast but went with the more subtle grey w/ black bits to blend with my Force deraileurs:


Off topic, but that's some nice detailing on the hand, a part people never pay attention to


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## NextTime

Further dragging this thread from out of the darkness but wanted to ask about a discrete question that I haven't seen addressed -

Anyone have experience (good or bad) with Ultimates on wide rims, egs. A23s or HED C2s?

Thanks for sharing.


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## dmcgoy

They work great with my A23 rims. I have them set up narrow/narrow and still have plenty of clearance.


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## BeerDrinkingDad

NextTime said:


> Further dragging this thread from out of the darkness but wanted to ask about a discrete question that I haven't seen addressed -
> 
> Anyone have experience (good or bad) with Ultimates on wide rims, egs. A23s or HED C2s?
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


Any issues are more with the frames than the rims, we're using Blue frames and thinner pads to allow easier wheel changes.


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## jmhtx

NextTime said:


> Further dragging this thread from out of the darkness but wanted to ask about a discrete question that I haven't seen addressed -
> 
> Anyone have experience (good or bad) with Ultimates on wide rims, egs. A23s or HED C2s?
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


I have a 2012 Crux with Major Tom/A23 rims and Ultimates that I run in the narrow position front and rear. I found I needed to get a set of road pad holders for the front to get the pads to contact the rims properly. The rear worked okay, but I could not get the front brake pads to hit the rims in the center. WIth some wear to the pads they would have contacted the tire. 

It seems to me that this is a bike specific issue as the postion of the cantilever posts in relation to the rim vary.


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## dmcgoy

jmhtx said:


> I have a 2012 Crux with Major Tom/A23 rims and Ultimates that I run in the narrow position front and rear. I found I needed to get a set of road pad holders for the front to get the pads to contact the rims properly. The rear worked okay, but I could not get the front brake pads to hit the rims in the center. WIth some wear to the pads they would have contacted the tire.
> 
> It seems to me that this is a bike specific issue as the postion of the cantilever posts in relation to the rim vary.


Don't the Shorty Ultimates use road-size pad holders by default?


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## jmhtx

dmcgoy said:


> Don't the Shorty Ultimates use road-size pad holders by default?


The pad holders are road sized, but they have a post and spacer that makes them sit more inward than a regualr road pad holder. Said another way, the pad holder is the same, but the pad holder post is longer on the Ultimate. 

Take a look at this the current cyclingnews.com sotry on Todd Wells bike- there is a pic and I think it might be more clear.

(i'd post it here, but still too few posts to post links/images)


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## outcast7

Got a chance to try a set of these last week, way more power than my TRP cantis but not too much like on the new V brakes. A pretty nice balance for a racing setup.


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## simonaway427

I'm running them in the narrow setting front and back - I love them.....


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## trauma-md

Cannondale SuperX with Zipp 303's here....I had to do the same thing on the rear of my bike (that Todd had to do) to get adequate clearance of the wide 303. Changed to more narrow spacers and posts than stock. I just pilfered an old set of road holders and swapped the posts and spacers. You can keep the same holders. Best bet is to just go to your local bike shop where they probably have a lot of old road brakes laying around...

The front fits fine with stock posts and spacers...so it is definitely a frame and fork specific issue.


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## Digger90

Gotta be easier than pfaffing with Frogglegs.


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## NextTime

*Avid Shorty Ultimate and HED C2 rims*

I wanted to refresh this thread as I'm having a bike set-up with HED C2 rims and Avid Ultimate Shorties.

The shop that is building the bike is telling me that on the rear wheel the brake pad will not hit the rim flush, but at an angle. I'm not sure whether this is big deal or not, as I would expect that pad to wear down a bit and hit the rim flush, but is this normal? Is there a way to do the set-up differently to avoid this result?

Many thanks for your input.


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## simonaway427

NextTime said:


> I wanted to refresh this thread as I'm having a bike set-up with HED C2 rims and Avid Ultimate Shorties.
> 
> The shop that is building the bike is telling me that on the rear wheel the brake pad will not hit the rim flush, but at an angle. I'm not sure whether this is big deal or not, as I would expect that pad to wear down a bit and hit the rim flush, but is this normal? Is there a way to do the set-up differently to avoid this result?
> 
> Many thanks for your input.


you can adjust the "toe" of the brake pad. That's why there are conical spacers, which allow you to do this.


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## NextTime

*Conical Spacers*



simonaway427 said:


> you can adjust the "toe" of the brake pad. That's why there are conical spacers, which allow you to do this.


Thanks. I'll give it a try.


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## krisdrum

simonaway427 said:


> you can adjust the "toe" of the brake pad. That's why there are conical spacers, which allow you to do this.


I don't think toe-in has anything to do with it. Sounds like the angle is being created in the vertical plane in relation to the braking surface, not perpendicular to it. The conical spacers are the right answer, but I wouldn't call that "toe-in". The pad holders need to be adjusted so the pad hits the brake surface flat surface to flat surface. That is accomplished by adjusting the conical spacers to angle the pad up or down from 90 degrees related to the brake arm. 

Toe-in to me is setting the pad so the front of the pad contacts the brake surface first with the trailing edge just off the rim (1mm or so).


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## jmhtx

NextTime said:


> I wanted to refresh this thread as I'm having a bike set-up with HED C2 rims and Avid Ultimate Shorties.
> 
> The shop that is building the bike is telling me that on the rear wheel the brake pad will not hit the rim flush, but at an angle. I'm not sure whether this is big deal or not, as I would expect that pad to wear down a bit and hit the rim flush, but is this normal? Is there a way to do the set-up differently to avoid this result?
> 
> Many thanks for your input.


This is the reason the shorter posts and narrower spacers are used in the above photo of the Crux with Zipps. If the pad posts are too long (making the width between the pads narrow) with a wide rim, only the bottom edge of the pad will contact the rim as the brake moves through its arc as it is engaged. It is not a toe in or conical washer problem.


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## jct78

anyone know where to get a spring replacement kit?

i shredded one spring on the front brake and it's barely holding in the screw plate.

the rec'd spring tension is to put the holes at 3 and 9 o'clock respectively. is anyone doing this? mine are set up with way less tension than that and work just fine.


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## krisdrum

jct78 said:


> anyone know where to get a spring replacement kit?
> 
> i shredded one spring on the front brake and it's barely holding in the screw plate.
> 
> the rec'd spring tension is to put the holes at 3 and 9 o'clock respectively. is anyone doing this? mine are set up with way less tension than that and work just fine.


Talk to your friendly neighborhood SRAM dealer. I think mine set me back about $25, but included the springs, the endcaps and a few other goodies.


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## jct78

krisdrum said:


> Talk to your friendly neighborhood SRAM dealer. I think mine set me back about $25, but included the springs, the endcaps and a few other goodies.


thanks, kris.

most outlets and LBS's i've checked do not have them in stock, nor do they seem to be available.


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## krisdrum

jct78 said:


> thanks, kris.
> 
> most outlets and LBS's i've checked do not have them in stock, nor do they seem to be available.


Not sure who the distributor was, but my buddy got me a set within the last 6 months. They didn't have the red end-caps, only the black, but that didn't matter to me. So I know they were definitely available recently.


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## NextTime

jmhtx said:


> This is the reason the shorter posts and narrower spacers are used in the above photo of the Crux with Zipps. If the pad posts are too long (making the width between the pads narrow) with a wide rim, only the bottom edge of the pad will contact the rim as the brake moves through its arc as it is engaged. It is not a toe in or conical washer problem.


I think I've learned the fix. Avid (SRAM) makes a brake holder for Shorty Ultimates that better fits wider rims. Here's a link for reference. Thanks.


http://www.amazon.com/Avid-Shorty-Brake-Holder-Width/dp/B005DTOCMA


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## jmhtx

Those are just about the same as these:

But those have SwissStop pads for carbon rims and are 2x more expensive.


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## skizzle86

I'm having the same issue, installing a set of Shorty ultimates on a new 2012 crux and the left rear caliper is very tight after tightening down the cap. Double and triple measured the boss length it's dead on 22mm used the plastic spacer and the caliper barely moves. I have to turn the tension on the spring quite a bit to make the caliper retract. Meanwhile the right side moves freely quite well. Tried using the metal spacer still tight, used both plastic and metal spacer, still tight....:mad2: any suggestions?


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## ms6073

skizzle86 said:


> Double and triple measured the boss length it's dead on 22mm used the plastic spacer and the caliper barely moves.


If one moves freely and the other does not, then I would suspect that the length of the caliper barrel - the part that slides over the canti boss is ever so slightly too long (~.5mm-1mm).


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## skizzle86

ms6073 said:


> If one moves freely and the other does not, then I would suspect that the length of the caliper barrel - the part that slides over the canti boss is ever so slightly too long (~.5mm-1mm).


I assumed that as much however, when I put the caliper on the boss and push it all the way down without screwing the tension cap, the caliper it is still tight, could it be the paint?


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## skizzle86

Never mind it is the paint as another crux user had the same issue

http://forums.mtbr.com/cyclocross/avis-shorty-set-up-issues-735057.html


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## sovereign

I have run into the same problem, yet it has to do with the narrow stud spacing on a Ritchey steel fork (and to a lessor degree on the frame). The rims are Mavic Open Pro, so they are only 20mm wide:










The solution is the same as referenced above, switch out the stud inside the pad holder for a shorter one. I pulled a Red pad holder off of another bike. All other parts that are included with the Shorty pad holders are the same as the Red parts. Red pad holder on the lefty, Shorty on the right:










In other words, all that is needed is a shorter stud. Red stud on the left, standard Shorty stud on the right:










SRAM's solution? Spend another $100 plus (I will probably need a shorter setup in the rear as well) and buy the Wide Rim Pads. And all I need is that shorter post. Those pads cost almost as much as I spent on the brake sets. So, I will try to source the studs at a shop or shorten the ones I have. I will not spend even the $60 to buy a couple of sets of Rival pads, all just to get one part out of each of them.


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## jct78

can someone tell me the the size/dimensions of the stock fixing bolt?

thanks


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## trustnoone

These brakes are enraging me. On the first attempt to install the front brake the paint on the brake bosses caused the brakes to bind. Coupled with the install instructions that label the left/right brake arms in reverse (As you would look at them from the front instead of the actual left and right brake arm). This caused me to bugger a spring and ti brake bosses.

Roll forward a month once all the replacement parts arrived. In attempting to switch the front from wide to narrow stance the bottom T10 torx bolt stripped under about 1 Nm of torque. Awesome. 

Sending the brakes back for warranty. 

In the event I ever get these F***ing things installed they better be worth it!


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## pivo

Are people using a front mounted cable hanger with their Ultimates?


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## Guest

pivo said:


> Are people using a front mounted cable hanger with their Ultimates?


Do you mean a fork-mounted hanger? If so, I am.


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## cxboy

skizzle86 said:


> I'm having the same issue, installing a set of Shorty ultimates on a new 2012 crux and the left rear caliper is very tight after tightening down the cap. Double and triple measured the boss length it's dead on 22mm used the plastic spacer and the caliper barely moves. I have to turn the tension on the spring quite a bit to make the caliper retract. Meanwhile the right side moves freely quite well. Tried using the metal spacer still tight, used both plastic and metal spacer, still tight....:mad2: any suggestions?


I'm having similar issues mounting these on a santa cruz cx frame, WTF...Does it help if you install a set of 21mm boss'es as my stock studs measure a hair over 22mm and either washer does not seem to fix the issues...
Mine are either binding or have play.....I guess its back to my pauls, the ultimates out flash the pauls but the Pauls may have out designed the ultimates ?? 
Throw some help my way....thx


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## trustnoone

I found my problem with the ultimates were the stock brake bosses which had been painted along with the fork. 

I installed new Ti brake bosses and they work great now.

Easyish to install, but you need to be careful adjusting the tension or the brake arm spring will pop out and gouge the finish. A bit annoying.


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## adam_mac84

Just wanted to add to this thread. I installed my ASU's, and had some binding with the right spacers. What i found was that the little torx screw was pushing through the rear of the brake and hitting the brake boss as it rotated around. Just filed that down a bit, and all is good. I have found that my canti studs are not 21, nor 22, but somewhere in between. Things are all good with the provided spacers allowing just a bit of excess stud sticking out from the washer, no binding, and things are all good


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## thatdrewguy

sovereign said:


> ... And all I need is that shorter post. Those pads cost almost as much as I spent on the brake sets. So, I will try to source the studs at a shop or shorten the ones I have. I will not spend even the $60 to buy a couple of sets of Rival pads, all just to get one part out of each of them.


I just picked up a set and need the shorter studs since I'm running wider rims. Frustrating since I have two new sets of Koolstop road pads with holders but the barrels for the brake pads are two large to fit thru the Avid caliper slots.

One question about the OEM pads, do they work well or should I just swap them with Koolstop salmons that I already have?


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## lewisl

Mine went on Redline Conquest Tram perfectly with spacer for 21mm posts. Absolutely pivoted freely with no play. Ran both narrow profile. Worked well but not HALF as well as Paul's Minimoto. there's no going back.


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## BB11

enr1co said:


> the black w/ red bits are a nice contrast but went with the more subtle grey w/ black bits to blend with my Force deraileurs:


Where did you find the grey ones, I have not seen them anywhere. I think black with red accents will look bad on an orange bike.


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