# Fake EPS?



## Kenacycle (May 28, 2006)

Is it just me or this this PR99 EPS looks fake?

http://cgi.ebay.com/2010-Colnago-EP...50642266280?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2312fa90a8


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

chinese fake.... see the other thread about that

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=246410


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## aluminum (May 6, 2011)

just saw that, was going to make a new thread with the same concerns but saw yours.

from what i understand that color combo was only made available by Pista Palace;

http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/02/08...olnago-eps-road-bike-frame-from-pista-palace/

but what really strikes me odd is the price, $1,500 for a brand new EPS?! and hes got 3 of them?! these framesets were $5,500 brand new only 2 years ago.

there is another EPS on ebay in the AMIT colorcode and the owner has been trying to sell it for some time now, hes looking for $3,400;

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Colnago-EPS...60750032291?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item3cb5e9bda3

another thing that concerns me about the $1,500 EPS auction is that if you look at the upclose pics of the leaf stays and hardware you will see the pictures have a signature on them "Cycling Yong" (i believe).


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

The guy is just a drop shipper, the entire products pictures and geometry chart is stolen from cyclingyong.


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## aluminum (May 6, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> The guy is just a drop shipper, the entire products pictures and geometry chart is stolen from cyclingyong.


your correct

i wasnt able to get onto the website (cyclingyong) earlier because it kept saying they were having a server issue, but yeah you can find the EPS on that site and its selling directly from there for $899

i really doubt it has the same level of craftsmanship as an original EPS. watch this video;






this shows the original process, i doubt that the chinese fakes are created the same way.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

aluminum said:


> i really doubt it has the same level of craftsmanship as an original EPS. watch this video.


I have the cycling yong EPS, the quality is good, the paint job is perfect, it's stiff, smooth, and rides well. After buying that, I'm not gonna bother with "brand name" stuff anymore. 

If purist can't invidiously consume because a similar product can be acquired for a fraction of the cost, boo bloody hoo for them. And this is coming from someone who used to believed that spending more will also mean getting a better product, (how naive I was) in reality, the price of a product has no bearings on quality and workmanship, the price is only dependent on how much people were willing to pay.


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## Kenacycle (May 28, 2006)

Ya what odd was the geometry chart.. why not use the official Colnago one, but instead some knockoff chart that shows sizes that aren't even available from Colnago. 

I bought my EPS PR99 directly from Pista Palace for $3k last year. But that was because Justin was getting rid of all his Colnago stocks after a fallout with Colnago


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

I noticed Glotman Simpson on your signature, you're local.


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## Kenacycle (May 28, 2006)

Yes Mrbubbles


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## aluminum (May 6, 2011)

mrbubbles said:


> I have the cycling yong EPS, the quality is good, the paint job is perfect, it's stiff, smooth, and rides well. After buying that, I'm not gonna bother with "brand name" stuff anymore.
> 
> If purist can't invidiously consume because a similar product can be acquired for a fraction of the cost, boo bloody hoo for them. And this is coming from someone who used to believed that spending more will also mean getting a better product, (how naive I was) in reality, the price of a product has no bearings on quality and workmanship, the price is only dependent on how much people were willing to pay.



heres the problem, some people cant lie to themselves. 

for example i would never buy a fake patek philippe watch just because it tells time just as well as an original. 

If you want a colnago, buy a colnago. but dont buy a chinese replica that says colnago on it. if you like the chinese lugged frame, thats great and its probably a good frame, but the fact that it says colnago on it when it really isnt is very deceptive.

i can understand if you wanted a carbon lugged frame with the same charecteristics as a colnago eps and found a chinese maker that was making this frame in their factory. if your argument was "i dont need to pay 4X the amount just so it can say colnago on it". but the fact is you have a FAKE frame, its not real. I would understand if it was a naked carbon or painted white, but the fact that its trying to be something its not with colnago logos is the issue. i hope you find the mistakes in your ways that buy trying to be someone your not doesnt do anything but put yourself down at the end of the day.


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## Eduardope (Mar 28, 2005)

Here's my take- I do not have an issue with the "copy" frames because in my opinion, the irresponsibility of the "authentic" manufacturers has created the problem. All of these manufacturers who have taken frame design and production to such extremes to where the cost is inconceivable and the minute details that separate their $5000 frames from a quality $800 frame literallty make little or no difference to even the highest level of bikers have pulled a fast one on us. They are like crack dealers--taking advantage of our obsessive addiction, selling us gimmicky minor changes that triple the cost of the product for only a 3% perceived improvement. It's not the chinese copy cats that are the real crooks here. They have copied a product, have done it well, are selling them as copies, and are giving the public a product that makes more sense. Now, I DO have a problem when they paint the name of the original company on it--that's copyright infringement. However, copyright infringement is only actionable if someone has a monetary gain from it. That is, if you ordred a replica frame with all of the Dogma paint schemes copied to a T and then painted "Pinarello" and "Dogma" on it when it arrived in your home, then you have broken no law unless you somehow profit monetarily from it. The molds, shapes, geometries, etc are not sufficiently novel enough for any of these manufactures to patent them, so their molds can be legally copied. Do bikers and manufacturers have a right to have access to over-engineered, obsessively detailed, and insanely priced products that stretch the law of diminishing returns to its extreme? Hell yes! But once you commit to that path, you invite and profoundly encourage the copy cats to beat you at your own game. So, for those of you who can honestly look in the morror and not feel like an idiot for paying $5,000 for a carbon frame that has no moving parts and is only marginally better than a $1,000 frame, I salute your addictive personality, vanity, and failure to use common sense in how you spend your money. You could actully buy a motorcycle that took 100 times the research, engineering, and production hours to make for the same price. But, hey, it's Italian, right? That makes it worth the extra money. Come on guys, stop drinking the cool-ade Lance would have won as many Tours on a $1000 frame as he did on the Madones. You are being fed crack by the manufacturers and they are charging on obscene premium for it. What's going on in the bike industry is the same thing that already happened in the auto industry. At first, the copies were not as good. Then they caught up. Now they are better and cheaper and the American industry has been forced to rethink their business models, produce more sensible vehicles, and eliminate wasteful processes to compete. This is going to happen in the bike uindusrty and it is a good thing. Colnago, Trek, Derosa, Pinarello, etc, all want to keep the old model in place so they can continue charge riduculous and unwarranted prices for their products. Those days are going bye bye and you can thank the Chinese for that. Competition is never a bad thing-- its what reins in the type of nonsense that results in a $5k bike frame being brough to market.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

the moment you called the "L" word I understood where was all this nonsense coming from.

If you ever ride a real Colnago you maybe would tell the difference.


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## chaulk61 (Jan 20, 2009)

He lost me at "bikers".


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## jet sanchEz (Nov 28, 2005)

Eduardope said:


> What's going on in the bike industry is the same thing that already happened in the auto industry. At first, the copies were not as good. Then they caught up. Now they are better and cheaper and the American industry has been forced to rethink their business models, produce more sensible vehicles, and eliminate wasteful processes to compete. This is going to happen in the bike uindusrty and it is a good thing. Colnago, Trek, Derosa, Pinarello, etc, all want to keep the old model in place so they can continue charge riduculous and unwarranted prices for their products. Those days are going bye bye and you can thank the Chinese for that. Competition is never a bad thing-- its what reins in the type of nonsense that results in a $5k bike frame being brough to market.


There is so much that is wrong with your way of thinking that it is really hard to start anywhere but I guess this idea is as good a place as any. Honda and Toyota did not make copies of GMs and Fords and label them as their own, they saw the weaknesses in the American cars and improved upon them. Chinarellos are exact carbon copies passed off as the real thing. There is no warranty and there are no guarantees and a person would only purchase one of these bikes because they assumed it was a Colnago----that makes it theft.

Ignorance such as yours is infuriating and it is a big part of the reason that America is in so much trouble right now....


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

He lost me when his brain died a long, long time ago.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Eduardope said:


> Here's my take- I do not have an issue with the "copy" frames because in my opinion, the irresponsibility of the "authentic" manufacturers has created the problem. All of these manufacturers who have taken frame design and production to such extremes to where the cost is inconceivable and the minute details that separate their $5000 frames from a quality $800 frame literallty make little or no difference to even the highest level of bikers have pulled a fast one on us. They are like crack dealers--taking advantage of our obsessive addiction, selling us gimmicky minor changes that triple the cost of the product for only a 3% perceived improvement. It's not the chinese copy cats that are the real crooks here. They have copied a product, have done it well, are selling them as copies, and are giving the public a product that makes more sense. Now, I DO have a problem when they paint the name of the original company on it--that's copyright infringement. However, copyright infringement is only actionable if someone has a monetary gain from it. That is, if you ordred a replica frame with all of the Dogma paint schemes copied to a T and then painted "Pinarello" and "Dogma" on it when it arrived in your home, then you have broken no law unless you somehow profit monetarily from it. The molds, shapes, geometries, etc are not sufficiently novel enough for any of these manufactures to patent them, so their molds can be legally copied. Do bikers and manufacturers have a right to have access to over-engineered, obsessively detailed, and insanely priced products that stretch the law of diminishing returns to its extreme? Hell yes! But once you commit to that path, you invite and profoundly encourage the copy cats to beat you at your own game. So, for those of you who can honestly look in the morror and not feel like an idiot for paying $5,000 for a carbon frame that has no moving parts and is only marginally better than a $1,000 frame, I salute your addictive personality, vanity, and failure to use common sense in how you spend your money. You could actully buy a motorcycle that took 100 times the research, engineering, and production hours to make for the same price. But, hey, it's Italian, right? That makes it worth the extra money. Come on guys, stop drinking the cool-ade Lance would have won as many Tours on a $1000 frame as he did on the Madones. You are being fed crack by the manufacturers and they are charging on obscene premium for it. What's going on in the bike industry is the same thing that already happened in the auto industry. At first, the copies were not as good. Then they caught up. Now they are better and cheaper and the American industry has been forced to rethink their business models, produce more sensible vehicles, and eliminate wasteful processes to compete. This is going to happen in the bike uindusrty and it is a good thing. Colnago, Trek, Derosa, Pinarello, etc, all want to keep the old model in place so they can continue charge riduculous and unwarranted prices for their products. Those days are going bye bye and you can thank the Chinese for that. Competition is never a bad thing-- its what reins in the type of nonsense that results in a $5k bike frame being brough to market.


tl;dr

PS: Use paragraphs, moreon.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

eduardope said:


> here's my take- i do not have a job. You can thank the chinese for that.


fify.


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## Eduardope (Mar 28, 2005)

*A response to the elitist bike bullies*

1) I'm sorry I didn't use paragraphs in my previous post. However, next time you want to insult somone's intelligence, it helps to not reveal your lack of it in the process-- it's spelled m-o-r-o-n. (Who's the moron now?) -p

2) As for the auto industry, Asian manufaturers DID copy American cars. They reverse engineered and copied everything coming out of the US for decades until they could understand and surpass our engineering quality (Asian manufactures sold copy cars in Asia long before they introduced products in the US). In the process, they forced American manufactures to make better, cheaper, and more competitive cars. By the way, for those of you who stand so proudly on your pedstal-- we did the same exact thing at the end of WWII when we blatently confiscated and COPIED all of Germany's intellectual property. -p

3) Patents are allowed only on unique designs or improvements to existing designs that are not obvious. Intellectual property is very complicated, especially in the international arena. Don't pretend you know what it is because you probably don't. Chastizing others with your moral indignation when you don't even know what constitutes intellectual property just makes you look stupid to those of us who do know. If it is not patented, it's free game to copy it. Period. Even if it is patented in one country, it is not necessarily patented in another. A U.S. patent does not supercede another country's laws. -p

3) If the Chinese took your job you probably did not spend much time investing in your career. You might be one of those guys that think you deserved $30 an hour for sitting on an assembly line or doing some other realtively simple labor (this is the same thinking that results in an over-priced $5k carbon bike frame being brought to market). -p

I do not support stealing intellectual property. I am a lawyer- the topic is more than something I like to pontificate about on a bicycle forum. However, I am also a consumer. The bike frame has been around for centuries--few designes will ever amount to intellectual property and thus copying it is neither a crime, nor is it morally wrong. If a company brings to market a non-unique design and prices it irresponsibly high, a copy is sure to come. In my opinion, a $5k bike frame begs to be copied and produced for less. For those of you owners of "real" uber expensive brands that look down at "posers" who have a $1000 replica frame, you should really look in the mirror-- you are the one that dropped $5k on a glitzy frame that in real world situations performs similarly to one 1/5 the price, all so you can feel so proud of yourself for owning a bike that cost as much as a year of an average person's rent. Stop being such snobs. Really, who's the poser that should be looked down upon?


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Eduardope said:


> 1) I'm sorry I didn't use paragraphs in my previous post. However, next time you want to insult somone's intelligence, it helps to not reveal your lack of it in the process-- *it's spelled m-o-r-o-n. (Who's the moron now?) -p*
> 
> 2) As for the auto industry, Asian manufaturers DID copy American cars. They reverse engineered and copied everything coming out of the US for decades until they could understand and surpass our engineering quality (Asian manufactures sold copy cars in Asia long before they introduced products in the US). In the process, they forced American manufactures to make better, cheaper, and more competitive cars. By the way, for those of you who stand so proudly on your pedstal-- we did the same exact thing at the end of WWII when we blatently confiscated and COPIED all of Germany's intellectual property. -p
> 
> ...


tl;dr

You fail at the intarwebs.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

Eduardope said:


> 1) I'm sorry I didn't use paragraphs in my previous post. However, next time you want to insult somone's intelligence, it helps to not reveal your lack of it in the process-- it's spelled m-o-r-o-n. (Who's the moron now?) -p


Even though you've apparently been a member since 2005 but only have a couple of posts, maybe you've never been to The Lounge. It's "moreon".



Eduardope said:


> 3) Patents are allowed only on unique designs or improvements to existing designs that are not obvious. Intellectual property is very complicated, especially in the international arena. Don't pretend you know what it is because you probably don't. Chastizing others with your moral indignation when you don't even know what constitutes intellectual property just makes you look stupid to those of us who do know. If it is not patented, it's free game to copy it. Period. Even if it is patented in one country, it is not necessarily patented in another. A U.S. patent does not supercede another country's laws. -p
> 
> 3) If the Chinese took your job you probably did not spend much time investing in your career. You might be one of those guys that think you deserved $30 an hour for sitting on an assembly line or doing some other realtively simple labor (this is the same thinking that results in an over-priced $5k carbon bike frame being brought to market). -p


You have 2 '3s'...
I was a web designer/web developer. It was actually India that took my job. They're willing to work for $8/day. I'm not.



Eduardope said:


> The bike frame has been around for centuries--few designes will ever amount to intellectual property and thus copying it is neither a crime, nor is it morally wrong.


Barely more than a century, actually. Around 1885 for the modern bike frame.

If a brand puts an unexpected bend in a frame member, that is intellectual property. I would expect a lawyer (even one with no writing skills) to be all over that.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

PlatyPius said:


> I would expect a lawyer (even one with no writing skills) to be all over that.


I was going to let the point of a lawyer who can't convey an idea clearly slide, but since you mention it....

The paralegal that translates that better get more than $30 per hour.


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## Eduardope (Mar 28, 2005)

Putting an unexpected bend in a frame does not get you a patent. It must be more than a stylistic addition. Do your homework! 

As for the web designer that lost his job to India, I'm sorry to hear that. I misjudged you. I hope things get better for you.

I don't have more to add to this discussion because like many of you, I have better things to do. I just do not think it is fair that those who have been attacking others for their purchases are doing so based on ingorance. Some of you make good points, but as usual, the most outspoken of you tend to be the least informed. It's really quite pathetic.


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> f a brand puts an unexpected bend in a frame member, that is intellectual property. I would expect a lawyer (even one with no writing skills) to be all over that.


Actually, there is no intellectual property regarding that unexpected bend. That's like saying a style of collar is patentable, it's not.


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## onefour02 (Jan 7, 2009)

i buy real colnagos because they spent their effort to design all the frames i currently own, and i will buy my next colnago and never buy a copy.

i cant be bothered to read the posts and comments of someone who bought a fake and still think its right.



Eduardope said:


> Putting an unexpected bend in a frame does not get you a patent. It must be more than a stylistic addition. Do your homework!
> 
> As for the web designer that lost his job to India, I'm sorry to hear that. I misjudged you. I hope things get better for you.
> 
> I don't have more to add to this discussion because like many of you, I have better things to do. I just do not think it is fair that those who have been attacking others for their purchases are doing so based on ingorance. Some of you make good points, but as usual, the most outspoken of you tend to be the least informed. It's really quite pathetic.


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## Salsa_Lover (Jul 6, 2008)

PlatyPius said:


> fify.


don't blame the chinese, it was the big capitalists who started all with their globalization model. most of them were americans.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

mrbubbles said:


> Actually, there is no intellectual property regarding that unexpected bend. That's like saying a style of collar is patentable, it's not.


In the case of Pinarello, that bend is aesthetic as well as being a "suspension" design. Surely that would be patentable?


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## mrbubbles (Jul 1, 2007)

PlatyPius said:


> In the case of Pinarello, that bend is aesthetic as well as being a "suspension" design. Surely that would be patentable?


With that argument, you can patent a curved fork, and yet a curved fork is not patentable. 

Aesthetic is very utilitarian and cannot be patented, you can patent process and methodology, but not aesthetics.

Take a lesson from the fashion industry, where copying ("counterfeiting" as you would say) is extremely widespread.

Johanna Blakley: Lessons from fashion's free culture | Video on TED.com

In the end, you stay ahead of the curve by innovating new styles and marketing hooplas.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Eduardope said:


> (Who's the moron now?) -p[?QUOTE]
> 
> Ha ha, meme knowledge fail, you are still the moron.
> 
> ...


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## Frank Wilson (Aug 11, 2009)

*You're all killing me!*

I bought a brand new Colnago EP from Backcountry Outlet for $1100. I bought a perfect, used EPS for $1200 from ebay Italy. Why buy chinese junk when you can have the real mccoy for the same money?


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## 19surf74 (Feb 1, 2009)

I've had 2 Colnagos, Cannondale, Trek, etc..... Never again will I buy off the shelf. You are lining the pockets of some greedy people. Think it really costs $5k+ to make the new Madone? Think again! I will buy American made: Firefly, Vanilla, Ira Ryan from here on out! Put money back into the pockets of an American trying to make a living!


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## AnthonyL88 (Oct 9, 2007)

Trek still make their top of the line Madone bike in the USA. There are a lot of custom bike builders in the USA, but it doesn't mean the frame is still cheap. Buying a top frame will still cost you around $4K-6K, Made in the USA.


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