# Best way to lower the gearing for a Vintage Bike?



## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Depends what you mean by "best". Cost, ease of installation, trade-offs in gearing are all factors.

Cheapest and easiest would be to get a freewheel with a bigger cog. You can get 28, 30, 32, or 34, but I don't know for sure whether you rear derailleur will handle the biggest. A picture might help.

You'd need a new crankset to change the inner ring to anything less than 38, and that would be much more $.


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> Depends what you mean by "best". Cost, ease of installation, trade-offs in gearing are all factors.
> 
> Cheapest and easiest would be to get a freewheel with a bigger cog. You can get 28, 30, 32, or 34, but I don't know for sure whether you rear derailleur will handle the biggest. A picture might help.
> 
> You'd need a new crankset to change the inner ring to anything less than 38, and that would be much more $.


Does this photo work?:


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Have you thought about a compact or triple crank?


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

velodog said:


> Have you thought about a compact or triple crank?


Compact crank would lower my highest gear and I don't want to do that if I can help it.

Triple crank. Not sure how that would work on this old bike - would I need a new Derailer?

I think the easiest thing to do would be to replace the freewheel if they make say a 28 - 13 and will that actually work.

Not sure what to do - hoping someone here with experience with these issues will chime in on what actually works. Thanks


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

You are not going to be able to significantly lower the gears on that bike without a new drive train

The derailluer has a max rear tooth of about 26 maybe 28 if you don't index

As to lowering the top gear it is probably already to high for you. That said; when you change the rear wheel to a cassette the small sprocket will drop from a 13 to an 11 or 12 so changing the parts out would net you about the same top gear but widen the range a bit. A 50/11 is about the same gear as a 53/13 

In order to change the drive train on that bike you will probably need a new rear wheel or to have a longer axle installed and the wheel re-dished. Since it is a 6-speed it is a freewheel so you cannot really find more than 7 speed freewheel that is 13/28

Here is your real issue. To significantly lower the gears you will have to go to a new rear derailleur rear wheel, and that probably means a new crank chain and shifters and cassette. Most of the specifications for parts have changed since that bike was new. Unless you go with Huffy level parts you won't find many parts for 6-speed rear ends

That upgrade buss can get really expensive really fast.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

mm9 said:


> Compact crank would lower my highest gear and I don't want to do that if I can help it.
> 
> Triple crank. Not sure how that would work on this old bike - would I need a new Derailer?
> 
> ...


How often are you in your 52x13? Probably not all that often so the 4 or 5 gear inches that you'd loose going to a 50 tooth chainwheel ain't gonna amount to a hill of beans. A 34 tooth chainwheel'd lower your gearing about 6 gear inches and a 36 about 4 inches. You could also go with a mid compact which is a 52x36 crankset.

Or if you wanted to get really spendy you could get a Rene Herse crankset from Compass Bicycles which can be ordered with chainrings from 24 teeth up to 50 or 52 teeth. $385 may be more than you would be willing to spend though. They may need a new front derailer to handle a big jump but should work with your current bottom bracket.

Compass Bicycles: Cranks


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

velodog said:


> How often are you in your 52x13? Probably not all that often so the 4 or 5 gear inches that you'd loose going to a 50 tooth chainwheel ain't gonna amount to a hill of beans. A 34 tooth chainwheel'd lower your gearing about 6 gear inches and a 36 about 4 inches. You could also go with a mid compact which is a 52x36 crankset.
> 
> Or if you wanted to get really spendy you could get a Rene Herse crankset from Compass Bicycles which can be ordered with chainrings from 24 teeth up to 50 or 52 teeth. $385 may be more than you would be willing to spend though. They may need a new front derailer to handle a big jump but should work with your current bottom bracket.
> 
> Compass Bicycles: Cranks


My bike has index shifting for the rear, so I assume based on what someone said that I can't go much higher than the 25 that I have. Sounds like a compact crank is going to be the only way to go if I want to keep costs down. I guess it's really no big deal to coast down big hills anyway. Thoughts?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

mm9 said:


> Compact crank would lower my highest gear and I don't want to do that if I can help it.


IME people who actually need a 52/13 (34 mph at 110 rpm) don't also need really low gears. Lots of people think they need big gears but in fact they don't - they can coast in a tight tuck on downhills and be just as fast as those who are pedaling. Consider what you actually need and then figure out the gears to get there.


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## Fai Mao (Nov 3, 2008)

mm9 said:


> My bike has index shifting for the rear, so I assume based on what someone said that I can't go much higher than the 25 that I have. Sounds like a compact crank is going to be the only way to go if I want to keep costs down. I guess it's really no big deal to coast down big hills anyway. Thoughts?


I guess I was not clear enough the first time

No, you cannot just put on a compact crank and you cannot just slap on a 13/28 7 speed freewheel

The rear derailleur does not have enough chain wrap to cover the smaller chain ring up front

Conversely the chain is probably not long enough to cover a 28 tooth cog in back. 

The combination of those things mean you'll need a rear derailleur with a longer cage (More chain wrap) and a longer chain. 

The new crank will have chain rings spaced for 9/10 gears in back. Often such a crank will not shift right with a wider chain even if the RD will work. 

The 6-speed chain will not work with a 8 or 9 speed rear derailleur either.

Also the 6-speed index shifters will possibly not work with a 7 speed rear end

Once you replace all of those things your indexing will not work even with 6-speed and you will need a a new set of shifters. Since 7-speed index shifters are no longer made that means a pair of fiction ones which is OK because the friction shifters still made are quite nice

So at a minimum you will need a 

Crank
Bottom bracket
Chain
Rear derailleur
Friction D/T shifters

If you have replaced those things then you should replace the rear cogs because the new chain might nor shift well on old cogs

If your rear spacing is 120 not 126 then you can't even just put on a 13/28 7 speed free wheel. I don't think you can buy a wide range 6 speed freewheel anymore that is better than Huffy quality so if the wheel has to be re-spaced and re-dished to fix a 13/28 7-speed you will need a new axle.

Lowering the gears on an old bike like you want can be done but it is going to cost you quite a bit. Too many of the parts made today are not really compatible with what is on your bike unless you go with really cheap Huffy type stuff. 

You have to be aware of the way that standards and spacing have changed before you can swap out stuff. I am not being mean. I am trying to save you a lot of frustration

Notice my signature "A proud retro grouch" I ride old bikes. I use old parts. I know of what I speak in this case


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Fai Mao said:


> I guess I was not clear enough the first time
> 
> No, you cannot just put on a compact crank and you cannot just slap on a 13/28 7 speed freewheel................
> 
> ...


Fai Mao: Thanks for taking your time to give me the very thorough advice. I'm having a hard time keeping up with the technical particulars in this thread because it's all new to me. But, I'm going to study what you've suggested and try and increase my knowledge. Thanks.

Edit PS: I'm trying to keep costs down to try the sport again before I spend any real money. Sounds like I may need to lose 15 lbs, do a lot of leg presses and a lot of riding and conform back to the bike I was able to ride 20 years ago, instead of trying to make the bike conform to my older self?


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

mm9 said:


> Edit PS: I'm trying to keep costs down to try the sport again before I spend any real money. Sounds like I may need to lose 15 lbs, do a lot of leg presses and a lot of riding and conform back to the bike I was able to ride 20 years ago, instead of trying to make the bike conform to my older self?


You know, I was going to suggest riding some more and working on the conditioning before you spend much. I think the 39x25 may turn out to be a low enough gear after all. I don't know about leg presses; personally, I'd just ride.

I would consider getting a freewheel with a 28, which your derailleur can probably handle. That would get you about 11% lower gear, which might help noticably. We're only talking 25-30 bucks for the experiment.

Just how hilly is it where you live? Where is that?


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

Best/Cheapest upgrade IMHO: Buy a Sugino XD600 triple crankset ~$100 (you'll need to replace the bottom bracket spindle with a longer length but that's a cheap swap). Grab a newer rear derailleur $50 for a long-cage Shimano Deore or medium-cage Shimano 105. Grab a non-series shimano triple FD for about $20.

You are limited on the rear cassette without respacing the frame. You could always change out individual cogs though.

Choose what route you want to take first, then decide on the individual parts in order to verify compatibility. The parts that I list above will work, but determining the best chain can be a challenge since the parts are all optimized for a particular chain dimension. With any luck, you won't even have to replace the RD and you'd be good with a new crank and FD (you may be able to get away without replacing the FD, but I would for a triple...).

Maybe this:
FSA Tempo Triple Crankset 52/42/30 170mm 9 Speed - Square Taper
 $40 You'd have to contact FSA to determine the proper spindle length for the bottom bracket $20. Front Derailleur $20 but you will need a clamp. You could do it for <$100 if you don't end up needing a new RD (I'd try the current one first, just don't cross-chain). You'd probably want to use an 8speed chain.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Just to correct the gear ratio statement, 50x11 is significantly taller than 53x13 (in fact it is taller than 53x12). 50x12 is taller than 53x13, so you wouldn't give up anything by getting a compact crank with a 12-cog starting cassette, except for the slightly worse front shifting. I ride 48x34 compact with 11-cog starting cassettes and 50x34 or 50x36 with 12-cog starting cassettes. The big advantage of the 12-25 (with 11 speeds) is that you have all the good intermediate cogs (16 and 18) and the compact allows you to stay in the big ring until you get to a significant climb.

I wouldn't spend money on a 6 speed drivetrain. Either try a freewheel cassette or upgrade the whole thing.


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> Just how hilly is it where you live? Where is that?


 The northern most Atlanta metro suburbs/exurbs - the foothills of the Appalachian mountains.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

I'd run what you brung. Ride it. Get into better shape. 

Save your money for a new bike. Then you are going to have a better idea what fits your needs and desires. The upgrade path is not usually cheap - especially with older (antiquated) equipment. 

It is also difficult to find a shop with the parts and knowledge to upgrade your 25 year old technology to 20 year old technology.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I bumped into this thread yesterday but my commute was almost over. I'm dragging my feet about a task I don't really want to do now, so...

Did you ever find out what kind of bottom bracket shell you have?

How many cogs on your freewheel?

Looks like you've got some decent answers forming already, but this thread suffers from too much generality at the moment.

Also keep in mind that bolting anything expensive to this bike is another step down the garden path. Not that I've ever broken an old frame and realized I'd ended up with a pile of parts cross-compatible with... nothing.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

You might be able to make a 14-28t read freewheel work with that bike (might is the operative word because it might be that the upper pulley of the rear derailleur will ride against the bigger cog, making it difficult to shift into that lowest gear). It will lower your lowest gear a decent bit, but not a whole lot. You will want to put a new chain on with the new freewheel for two reasons: you will probably need a couple more links to handle the bigger cog and the old, worn chain might not mesh with the new freewheel.

Alternatively you could just ride the Silver Comet Trail until you get more fit or get enough money for a newer bike with a compact crankset.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

First, I'd do more research before throwing in the towel on an upgrade. Read Sheldon Brown site, especially here
Upgrading Older Road Bicycles
and here
Upgrading Bicycle Gearing

This appears to be a well respected model, more on others getting into it here
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/retro-classic/1987-centurion-dave-scott-ironman-expert-200601.html

Even though it's a 6 speed, likely you have a 126mm wide rear dropouts. see more on that here
Bicycle Frame/Hub Spacing

You also likely have a freewheel, versus a cassette. More on that here 
Freewheel or Cassette?
Traditional Thread-on Freewheels
Shimano Cassettes & Freehubs
finally, list of available 6 speeds freewheels here
Freewheels (Thread on Type) for Bicycles from Harris Cyclery

From what I see (below), you possibly get the 14-28 one to work, but probably need a new chain. That would be the cheapest upgrade. Always look up the specs on your exact derailleur, do not not make any assumptions. Here's a great database on old components -
VeloBase.com - Component Listing

This one looks exactly like yours, and the year matches
VeloBase.com - Component: Shimano RD-1050, 105

This derailleur has 26T wrap, and handles max cog size 28T. what this means here
Bicycle Rear Derailleurs from Harris Cyclery 
Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary Ca--Ce

With the 14-28 above, your max cog is 28, and wrap is (53-39) + (28-14) = 28T
As long as you don't plan to use the smallest front chain ring with the smallest rear cog, I would go for it, based on my experience, the user comments in the 105 database, and Sheldons comments on conservative ratings. Make sure to size the new chain properly. I'd get an 8 speed KMC, about 11. or so. 

If you are going to do the work, you'll also need to buy the right freewheel removal tool and learn up. Or find a friend who has them, or pay a bike shop. Read up, have fun, ask more specific questions as you go.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'm actually on a full-sized computer at the moment...

So right now, your lowest gear ratio works out as 1.56, or about 42 gear inches if you want to use that system.

If you slap on a 14-28 freewheel, and there are some nice ones available (and they're cheap!) you get a 1.39 ratio, or about 38 gear inches. So about 10% lower - not all that much.

A compact crank and your existing freewheel get you down to 1.36, or about 37 gear inches. Pretty close to the same, probably not worth how much more expensive a change it is. I haven't slapped a whole new crankset on an existing bike, my 12-speed happened to have a 110 BCD, so I just swapped the rings and called it a day; that worked fine. Frankly, I don't think a new crankset would be that bad, and if it was, I'd try shimming one of the rings out. I also wouldn't bother looking for a 6-speed chain. I just bought 8-speed chains. Cheap and readily available.

Compact and a 14-28 gets you 1.21, or about 33 gear inches. Now we're talking. Obviously more expensive.

There's also a standard road triple, which ships with a 30t granny and can take smaller (but will have a weird shift pattern) and various touring and MTB triples. Those do need a new front derailleur. If you have a 68 mm English bottom bracket, you can have pretty much any type of gearing you want. It's an incredibly common standard. It's probably what you've got, but you should confirm.

Really, none of the technical issues with this stuff are that hard, though I'd stick with a 6-speed setup, and did when it came up on my last commute bike. The real problem is more that you can throw a lot of parts at an older bike and you end up with a bit of a frankenbike and sometimes weird cross-compatibility, or you're hunting for unusual brakes or something like that. And if you end up riding a lot, this stuff will keep coming up, again and again. If you decide after a while to get a new bike, you're not getting any of your money or time back out of the old one. It's up to you to decide if that matters. Some people are bicycle collectors who happen to ride now and then and probably wouldn't care.

I was thinking about this this morning - I'm going to stick some new wheels on my road bike when my team form comes out. They'll be cheap ones, they're just to keep it safe and I don't compete on my road bike so I'm disinclined to spend a lot on it. I think that bike has its original seatpost. It already doesn't have the original front hub or rear rim for one reason or another, and when new wheels go on, it'll really only be the original seatpost. So think about what you want your ongoing maintenance experience to be like.

Some people seem to be able to ride stock bikes for years and years without breaking things or wearing out much. I'm not one of them.


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks for the very detailed info everyone. Thanks for all the great links Z'mer!

Status: I took the bike to my local shop this morning for some advice. The guru there is named Dave and he might be chiming in here. I just sent him the link. First, he tried a 28 - 14 freewheel. It almost worked but he said some spring (forget the name) was worn out on my derailer and it didn't allow it to work with this new freewheel. He tried to crimp it (bend it or something) and said he couldn't get it to work. So, he tried a 26 - 13?. It works, so now I have one tooth more on back (26 vs the original 25).

Just went for a ride. It improved the climbing on the big hills, but I still would like a 28 if I can get one. He says I need a new derailed, where the spring is not worn out to be able to get a 28 - 14 on there.

He's going to study up on this and will probably read this thread. Thanks again for all the help.

For reference purposes:

Brochure for my bike: (Cool Dave Scott mustache huh  )
https://vivalaslider.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/centurion-ironam-ad-1987-touched.jpg

Bicycling magazine review with some technical details:

Page 1: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iTKbhvyAciI/S-X2R1-0wzI/AAAAAAAAAfY/E6eluPDZLvk/s1600/ironman-review1.jpg

page 2: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iTKbhvyAciI/S-X2RbvYu2I/AAAAAAAAAfQ/TrHd90t7ePY/s1600/ironman-review2.jpg

More specs: Centurion Ironman Expert - Pedal Room


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

A new Shimano rear derailleur should be drop-in compatible with what's on there. They were pretty consistent from when they started indexing at least through 10-speed road and 9-speed mountain. I don't know about 11-speed road.

Since advice from the internet is worth about what you pay for it, if I was in your shoes, I'd probably check the compatibility charts on Shimano's web site or try with one I didn't have to pay for before putting down the credit card.

I think that Sora and 2300 rear derailleurs are perfectly good, and have Tiagra and Deore on my two road bikes. Not as pretty as 105 and up, but they do the job.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Agreed, get the new Shimano derailleur and 14-28, life's too short. Enjoy this bike man! 
Get the longer medium cage to be safe for future upgrades if needed - and this keeps you moving forward. The Shimano Claris line is economical but very much decent quality and 8 speed compatible, so should work fine with your 8 speed chain. Your mechanic should be able to adjust this to work fine with 6 speed indexing. Take note of sheldon's article on derailleur adjustment, especially the rear cable attachment options (if needed). 

Universal Cycles -- Shimano RD-2400 Claris Rear Derailleur

If you wanted to keep updating, you could add the compact crankset later, and it should work OK with this derailleur. But I'd ride the 14 -28 for a while and see how you do. 
I've done vintage bike crank updates on vintage square taper to modern Shimano hollowtech cranksets, it's a bit more messy than swapping rear freewheels. I'd look hard at a new (used) bike before doing a lot more. 

But it all depends on your emotional attachment to the bike. We've got a mid 70's Bob Jackson here that my wife's dad built himself after picking up the frame and many parts in England. That one is getting the *good* update parts.


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks AndrwSwitch and Z'mer!


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## mm9 (Jul 20, 2009)

Talked to a friend that owns a shop in my state, who is familiar with hills around here. He suggested that I should keep the 39/26 lowest gear for now and just work on fitness as some others in this thread have suggested. Being able to keep cadence up and being able to make it to the top of the biggest hills around here without searing lungs would be a heck of a fitness improvement measurement compared to where I am now. Right now I can do them without walking, but my cadence gets pretty low and I'm mashing the gears and breathing hard on the biggest ones. Thoughts?


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Do you think you can realistically lose 15 lbs quickly? With hills, the more you weigh, the more watts it takes to get you and the bike up a hill. 
Mashing at low cadence up hills is not great thing to do, it put a huge strain on your legs. Riding should be enjoyable, not agony. 
What are your goals for riding, and how does this bike fit into them? I would strongly consider a new bike, like a Giant Defy, Felt Z series or other "endurance" type bike if you really want to get into riding again. At least test ride one. 
Keeping old bikes going is only worth it if you can do the labor, and even sorta enjoy it. Otherwise...


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

mm9 said:


> Talked to a friend that owns a shop in my state, who is familiar with hills around here. He suggested that I should keep the 39/26 lowest gear for now and just work on fitness as some others in this thread have suggested. Being able to keep cadence up and being able to make it to the top of the biggest hills around here without searing lungs would be a heck of a fitness improvement measurement compared to where I am now. Right now I can do them without walking, but my cadence gets pretty low and I'm mashing the gears and breathing hard on the biggest ones. Thoughts?


I sometimes ride with a weekend-hills group in Pittsburgh. I've had guys, not in much better shape than me, pass me on a single-speed. If you have an easy gear, you'll use it. If you don't, you'll end up in the same places and get a better workout. I say mash away, unless you start to have too much knee ache or some sort of medical problem to suggest that different gearing is necessary.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

Why not start out riding the Silver Comet trail out of Smyrna for a while to get your spin back before tackling hills? There are a couple of other rail trails in the area that you can ride so as to re-find your cadence and a little strength. I do not agree with folks who say to "mash away" - that's a great way for an older rider to damage his knees (especially in the winter months).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

While I do agree that spinning is way easier on your knees than mashing, back in 1987 when that bike was built it was either a standard crank or a triple and the triples were mostly on touring bikes. Plenty of cyclists got through those years and aren't in wheelchairs now. 

If you're thinking about a new bike, save your money and put it towards that, but if a new bike isn't in your future, upgrade the drivetrain, or even the group, on this one.

Personally, I'd leave this one as is and buy another bike. Two bikes is better than one, most anyone here will tell you that.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

mm9 said:


> Talked to a friend that owns a shop in my state, who is familiar with hills around here. He suggested that I should keep the 39/26 lowest gear for now and just work on fitness as some others in this thread have suggested. Being able to keep cadence up and being able to make it to the top of the biggest hills around here without searing lungs would be a heck of a fitness improvement measurement compared to where I am now. Right now I can do them without walking, but my cadence gets pretty low and I'm mashing the gears and breathing hard on the biggest ones. Thoughts?


For me, gearing isn't about what I need. I can climb a steep hill with two panniers full of books in 40/28. It's about what I want. And I don't want that climb to be that hard. Not if the goal is just to go to school without wasting my time on public transit or looking for parking. I was a lot happier with that bike when I lowered the gearing.

I don't commute by bike anymore, but I still like being able to choose not to redline on climbs in January. In another two months, I may seek them out for the purpose of redlining on them, but that's not what I'm looking for at the moment. It's not like having a 28t cog (or 36t, MTB cassettes get big) forces me to use it.

Clearly you don't need lower gears. But they'll change your riding experience. This is really about how hard you want to work on climbs.

I think you should ride some bikes with integrated shifters before you decide. Not that you can't ride seriously without them - people did for decades. But they're really convenient, and they're well past what it makes any sense (IMO) to try to put on a c1987 bike.


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## adenough (Jan 28, 2014)

I bought this bike in mint condition for very little money. It's a, 1990, 501 framed Raleigh Sprint. The gearing was too high for the hills here in my part of the UK. I fitted a compact chainset [UK S/H e-bay prices] for £30. A new 7 speed 34-14 freewheel £9 and Sora 8 speed long cage rear mech £12. I lengthened the chain and job done.
It rides very well and with a 34-34 bottom gearing will climb anything. I kept the original front mech. I assume you have DT shifters which this once had so no problem but I later fitted Sora STI's to this and they work fine.
Done hundreds of miles in all weathers and it works faultlessly.


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