# paleo diet



## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

I did a search for an older thread on this but it didn't yield much of anything. Sorry if it is redundant but, anyone here on it.

I'm giving it a shot but I'm at a loss as to what to eat (pretty much has to go in a jersey pocket, doesn't it?) on long rides.

You get about 60-80 miles out and the Larabars and Gatorade are no longer going to cut it.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

That's the problem... the paleo diet is not really compatible with long rides at any pace above "touring"

("long rides" meaning over 2-3 hours)

If you are doing centuries for time, or road races, or just want to hang with your buddies, you are going to need starchy carbs of some kind. Banana's, pbj, commercial packaged mixes, the usual suspects.


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## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

Thanks for the response. I'm just starting into it and I've got some ideas.

I've got Joe Friel's book on Paleo for athletes but hardly cracked it yet.


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## elvisvelo (Sep 24, 2008)

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no message



rbnyc said:


> I did a search for an older thread on this but it didn't yield much of anything. Sorry if it is redundant but, anyone here on it.
> I'm giving it a shot but I'm at a loss as to what to eat (pretty much has to go in a jersey pocket, doesn't it?) on long rides.
> You get about 60-80 miles out and the Larabars and Gatorade are no longer going to cut it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

don't bother - its based on the outdated idea that our genome has not changed much since our paleo days. This is not the case, as there has been substantial recent and rapid genetic changes that undermine the premise of the paleo diet. Genetic changes relating to diet and the shift to agriculture and domestication of animals in particular are significant. Eat a sensible diet and forget about emulating our paleo ancestors.


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## dcl10 (Jul 2, 2010)

I've done it, and you basically just need to exclude grains, dairy, sugar and oils. Bananas are probably your best bet, and walnuts, macadamia nuts, cashews all work great. Its good for loosing weight when coupled with exercise as you still have good energy levels unlike some other diets. But really if you cut sugar, dairy, and oils out of your diet you are probably going to loose weight anyway, and it would not be something I'd do for more than a couple weeks.


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## Hughsdad (Jan 21, 2011)

On the ride, take sweet potatoes, dried fruit, and nuts. I love dried sweet potatoes. But I think you should also stash a couple bars or gels just in case. As you say, 80 miles out is not where you want to find out what is working for you. And, if you are sticking to the diet other times, what harm will a bar or gel or two do, in the middle of a long ride?

As for the diet as an overall plan, my advice is to try it & see how it goes. But be prepared to play with it and adapt it to your needs. I did it for about 6 months, at first being very strict with no grains at all. At that level I found I had little energy for exercise. I gradually started adding some grains, like oatmeal for breakfast, or a little rice at lunch. Now I'm back to eating grains at most meals, but at a sensible, balanced volume.


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## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> don't bother - its based on the outdated idea that our genome has not changed much since our paleo days. This is not the case, as there has been substantial recent and rapid genetic changes that undermine the premise of the paleo diet. Genetic changes relating to diet and the shift to agriculture and domestication of animals in particular are significant. Eat a sensible diet and forget about emulating our paleo ancestors.


Fair enough. Any books out there detailing that? Thanks.


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## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

Hughsdad said:


> On the ride, take sweet potatoes, dried fruit, and nuts. I love dried sweet potatoes. But I think you should also stash a couple bars or gels just in case. As you say, 80 miles out is not where you want to find out what is working for you. And, if you are sticking to the diet other times, what harm will a bar or gel or two do, in the middle of a long ride?
> 
> As for the diet as an overall plan, my advice is to try it & see how it goes. But be prepared to play with it and adapt it to your needs. I did it for about 6 months, at first being very strict with no grains at all. At that level I found I had little energy for exercise. I gradually started adding some grains, like oatmeal for breakfast, or a little rice at lunch. Now I'm back to eating grains at most meals, but at a sensible, balanced volume.


I don't see any way to go all-in on this. I bonked yesterday on a 45 mile ride and that would never, ever have happened with a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast. Took me about 4 hours after eating to get to feeling normal.

What you say about bars, etc. is correct (to me, anyway). My point was that after a bar and a gel, a banana, etc. at about mile 70 or 80 I want a sandwich or the Paleo equivalent. 

I think one could use sushi seaweed as a wrapper and put whatever you want as the filling and you could go straight line Paleo. I'm doubtful that I care though.


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

You can call it paleo or not, but generally speaking, work on removing or reducing processed foods, overly refined carbs, sugar, and sodium. 

I eat "paleo" for athletes basically and it works for me. I have oats a few days a week with granola and "bike food", but when it comes to most meals my husband and I cook in, trim fat off meat, eat a lot of scrambled eggs and veggies. 

Works for us, but we do also have bread/tortillas/fro-yo/beer at times. Just not *all* the time.

There's actually a very lengthy discussion on the diet on MTBR under Racing & Training.


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## Hughsdad (Jan 21, 2011)

rbnyc said:


> I don't see any way to go all-in on this. I bonked yesterday on a 45 mile ride and that would never, ever have happened with a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast. Took me about 4 hours after eating to get to feeling normal.
> 
> What you say about bars, etc. is correct (to me, anyway). My point was that after a bar and a gel, a banana, etc. at about mile 70 or 80 I want a sandwich or the Paleo equivalent.


Exactly. That's why I'm back to a diet with grains and starchy vegetables. If I weren't riding and running, I probably would do OK with the Paleo, but why?

Is there a Paleo equivalent to a sandwich?


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## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

Hughsdad said:


> I probably would do OK with the Paleo, but why?
> 
> Is there a Paleo equivalent to a sandwich?


The why would be if you really believe that, as Rob Wolf says, gluten even in small amounts is very bad for you, even those of us who are roadie thin (I'm 5'9', 135) and not seemingly bothered by gluten.

Really believe being the operative words here.

As I said in a previous post, I think you could make a pretty good sandwich wrap using sushi seaweed. The seaweed is pretty neutral tasting and durable. You could fill it with nut butter, lima beans (not paleo but I think we've established that a long ride is going beyond the limits of the diet) sliced turkey, etc.


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## Hughsdad (Jan 21, 2011)

rbnyc said:


> The why would be if you really believe that, as Rob Wolf says, gluten even in small amounts is very bad for you, even those of us who are roadie thin (I'm 5'9', 135) and not seemingly bothered by gluten.
> 
> Really believe being the operative words here.


Good point. At heart I'm an agnostic. To my layman's eye, it seems for every diet or theory out there, there is a contradictory one. I've decided to play the middle game. If that's fence sitting, so be it.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the originators of the diet also assumed people were not evolved to perform endurance exercise (supposing paleo ancestors would have performed short bursts of activity - evading or catching prey). For that reason, they advise against endurance exercise. Good thing since the diet they recommend does not support endurance activity. 

I'd suggest forgetting about fads - including the gluten-free fad unless you have been diagnosed with celiac disease - and looking at a sensible diet for endurance athletes. Matt Fitzgerald's book, Racing Weight, is a good resource.


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## DLd (Aug 25, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> the originators of the diet also assumed people were not evolved to perform endurance exercise (supposing paleo ancestors would have performed short bursts of activity - evading or catching prey). For that reason, they advise against endurance exercise. Good thing since the diet they recommend does not support endurance activity.
> 
> I'd suggest forgetting about fads - including the gluten-free fad unless you have been diagnosed with celiac disease - and looking at a sensible diet for endurance athletes. Matt Fitzgerald's book, Racing Weight, is a good resource.


Really, they advise against endurance exercise? You realize the founder of the diet has a whole book specifically addressing endurance racing/training and the Paleo diet. It's called the Paleo Diet for Athletes and he specifically addresses what you should eat before/during/after different length events from 1 hour up to 12+ hour events. I don't know about you, but I consider 12+ hour events as endurance exercise.

To the OP, you said you have the book but haven't read it yet. I would suggest reading it for a good starting point for advice. Try what's in there, see how it works and adjust it to your requirements. If you haven't read the book, then you're not really giving it a fair shot.

Regarding the recent changes to the human genome due to the advent of agriculture, dairy, etc., certainly there have been changes to our genome in the past 5000 years, but just because, for example, people from dairy farming cultures have evolved to tolerate milk, does not mean it's optimum for us. I think people get hung up on the "Paleo" aspect of the diet and can't (or don't want to) evaluate it on the nutritional superiority of it. I think it's chapter 4 or 5 that compares the nutritional data between the typical food pyramid type of diet and the paleo diet. You really have to read that to be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subject, rather than focusing on the "paleo" aspect which is actually quite secondary. They do recommend augmenting a strict paleo diet with starchy carbs, grains etc, for those doing endurance exercise. I think you'll find that the Paleo diet as recommended for endurance athletes it actually quite similar to a Michael Pollan style diet, except for cutting out dairy.

It's been working well for me with regards to endurance training. My most recent event was a 29 mile mountain bike race with 3890 feet of climbing. It was just over a 3 hour event for me, and I didn't feel like I was bonking at all. Of course I followed the advice in the book regarding events like this and used gels and some Gatorade and whey protein for fuel. I am just getting back into racing, and while this was useful for losing weight to get me into climbing form perhaps I'll find some limitations as my training ramps up and I reach the level of some you guys, but for now, by actually following the advice, it's working really well. I've never felt better.

This here is a Cliff's notes regarding eating recommendations for during training. It doesn't go over the nutritional benefits of the diet though, you have to read the book for that. If you don't I can easily see why it would just seem like a fad or hype. http://www.trainingbible.com/pdf/Paleo_for_Athletes_Cliff_Notes.pdf

Hope this helps!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I said that the Paleo diet does not work for endurance athletes. You didn't deny that - you said 

"They do recommend augmenting a strict paleo diet with starchy carbs, grains etc, for those doing endurance exercise."

Friel says 

"Serious athletes, however, when it comes to immediately before,during, and directly
after workouts, need to bend the rules of the Paleo Diet a bit since we're placing
demands on the body that were not normal for our Stone Age ancestors."

Our Paleo ancestors didn't pop a gel to avoid a bonk like you suggest. Bottom line: it's no longer a Paleo diet. 

Friel also says

"There has been no significant change in the human genome
in the past 10,000 years. Physiologically speaking, we are still Paleolithic athletes."

That's just false. Further, it's a fallacy to suppose that the diet of distant ancestors was "optimal." It was based on availability and our ancestors spent much of their lives near starvation (with barely being able to sustain zero population growth). 

"Paleo diet" is just a way to 'brand' a diet in the competitive marketplace of dieting, self-help, and fads....


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## DLd (Aug 25, 2005)

I just started checking out Racing Weight via the sample chapter here, http://www.velopress.com/sample/sample_RW.pdf because I'm always looking for ways to improve and I'm pretty open-minded to trying new things as long as they make sense. It's amazing how close it is to the same recommendations in the Paleo Diet.
Example:
STEP 1: IMPROVE YOUR DIET QUALITY. Step 1 in my Racing Weight 
plan is to improve your diet quality, or the amount of nutrition you get 
from each calorie in your diet. Increasing the nutrition-per-calorie 
ratio of your diet will enable you to get all the nutrients you need for 
maximum performance from fewer total calories, thus enabling you to 
become leaner.

The paleo diet (once you get past the paleo moniker) is really just all about increasing the nutrition-per-calorie ratio of your diet. It's just that they came to this conclusion by studying the diets and health of hunter-gatherer tribes and realizing just how much more nutritionally dense those diets were.

I think the two diets probably have more in common than they differ. Also, I guess I should note that there are some fringe Paleo/Caveman diets out there that seem to recommend just eating meat or other extreme/radical choices. Those are not the diets I'm recommending. I'm specifically referring to the Paleo Diet as outlined by Cordain and Friel.

Okay, I have to finish reading that sample chapter of Racing Weight now, I may have to pick that up. From what I've seen so far, there's no reason I can't follow the advice in there in a Paleo manner. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Infini (Apr 21, 2003)

Read the Paleo for athletes book


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

The overwhelming majority of an endurance athlete's calories should come from carbohydrates. As training volume increases, so should the percentage of calories from carbs. Ultra-endurance athletes get as much as 90% of their calories from carbohydrates. Kenyan marathoners - the most efficient endurance athletes in the world - derive 80% of their calories from carbohydrates. They eat hardly any protein - around 10%. The standard Paleo diet recommends getting the majority of calories from protein. Once you deviate from this (as with the Paleo for athletes), it's no longer a 'paleo' diet. Point is, there's no reason to be dogmatic about a certain approach to diet, especially one based on fallacious science (read Katherin Milton, physical anthropologist at Berkeley on these fallacies if you're interested).


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## vancouver-rider (Apr 14, 2011)

Stevesbike makes many good points about the Paleo Diet.

I have detailed with before-and-after pics of my physical transformation on the Paleo Diet here: https://fitafter40vancouver.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-i-started-my-journey-victor.html










Today, at 44.5 years old, I am leaner, stronger, fitter with better endurance than I ever have been. I am built more like a sprinter than a climber though.

The human body seems to be able to thrive on a variety of foods depending on what's available. From Eskimos (fat) to Kitavans (carbs), there is a wide degree of ways to fuel ourselves. I write about that here: https://fitafter40vancouver.blogspot.com/2011/04/move-more-eat-less.html

None of them however, seem to engage in long duration, high aerobic activities such as cycling and marathon running. For these activities, one would need more carbs to fuel the inevitable loss of glycogen after 2 hours of hard work.

The main thing I take away from Paleo is the avoidance of processed foods and sticking with natural foods which are not genetically modified, eating pesticide-free, hormone-free foods wherever possible. The suggestion to eat sweet potatoes on a ride is a good one, along with chocolate and bananas.

Tennis star Djokovic who has beaten Federer recently switched to a gluten free diet and found superior form. Tennis is an endurance sport too.
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/tennis/...c-s-new-gluten-free-diet-behind?urn=ten-wp706

Here is a post I wrote about HbA1c (average blood sugar levels) and athletes:
https://fitafter40vancouver.blogspot.com/2010/12/hba1c-and-athletes.html

Here is a good place to start reading everything you need to know about the Paleo Diet and various ways to implement it:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/


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## 151 (Apr 6, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> I said that the Paleo diet does not work for endurance athletes. You didn't deny that - you said
> 
> "They do recommend augmenting a strict paleo diet with starchy carbs, grains etc, for those doing endurance exercise."
> 
> ...


I have learned that you pretty much know what your talking about, but I would like to see a study or something that proved how our genetics have changed in relatively recent times to make grains and such part of our optimal diet.

Also, I think, (not very often but whatever) that it isnt so much that the diet of the paleo man was optimal so much as he was optimized for that diet.

Had there been easy access to a high carb diet back in the day (a wed.) then our ancestors might have evolved differently. What I am trying to say is maybe we evolved around the diet there by making that "paleo" diet optimal.

These days when diet is so easily adjustible we all need to just put some thought into what it is we need to intake for our particular output.

My optimal diet is certainly not the same as drew carey's and not the same as a ultra marathon runner either. We all three have different needs that can easily be met with just a little thought and information.


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## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

All very interesting. Glad to get a good discussion going. Thank you all who have responded

A little background on how I stepped into the Paleo world. Last winter I found out that my brother in law had been on statins some years back. He's a doctor so he knows about the human body. He did the Atkins, eating a lot of fat, dropped weight and the need for the statins. He gave me a copy of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes and I highly recommend it.

I started eating less bread and cereal--I could easily eat a big box of Cheerios in two days. Ok, maybe three. I've always been athletic and fit and could pretty much eat anything I wanted without gaining weight but changing what I ate put me into a really low body fat percentage. I went from 5'9" 147 to 134 over three months. 

Lowering my grains got me there so I thought I'd see what (near) total elimination would do. If any of you Paleo types can tell me what I'm going to get from it I'd be interested but losing weight and relief from celiac are not my needs.


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## DLd (Aug 25, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> The overwhelming majority of an endurance athlete's calories should come from carbohydrates. As training volume increases, so should the percentage of calories from carbs. Ultra-endurance athletes get as much as 90% of their calories from carbohydrates. Kenyan marathoners - the most efficient endurance athletes in the world - derive 80% of their calories from carbohydrates. They eat hardly any protein - around 10%. The standard Paleo diet recommends getting the majority of calories from protein. Once you deviate from this (as with the Paleo for athletes), it's no longer a 'paleo' diet. Point is, there's no reason to be dogmatic about a certain approach to diet, especially one based on fallacious science (read Katherin Milton, physical anthropologist at Berkeley on these fallacies if you're interested).


Well, the OP said he had the Paleo for Athletes book in his second post, and as we're all athletes here (at least this thread is in the Racing, Training, Nutrition forum), that's sort of the Paleo diet we're talking about here... Like I said, it's important not to get hung up on the Paleo moniker and instead evaluate the diet itself based on it's nutritional strengths. Would it help if we called it the "Go Fast" diet? Also, when I looked up Racing Weight on Amazon, I noticed the the first endorsement, the one considered most important by the publisher, was by Joe Friel, co-author of Paleo for Athletes. I'm betting that once I read Racing Weight, I'll find the diet suggestions are not that far off from Paleo for Athletes. I should know in a few days once I get it, looks like a good book. Hopefully it will help me with getting to my optimal "racing weight", I'm looking for specifics to help me drop from b.f. of 10% down to about 7%. If I had taken photos in the past three months since I got serious on the Paleo Diet for Athletes and started training again it would look similar to the progression in VancouverRider's pics (good job btw). 6'1" and went from 178 down to 165, and have been at 165 for the past month or so now. After reading the book sample of Racing Weight I'm thinking I might just drop down to 160 as the easiest way to drop 5 pounds of fat, and help with the late season (i.e. high country) races in AZ which typically feature much more climbing than the early season desert races which tend to favor power riders.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

i finished 6th at state TT here in tn in my division. my diet leading up to race?

i fasted thursday
friday night i had a 16oz ribeye (nothin,g else whole day)
saturday (race day) i forgot to eat breakfast

my average hr for 40k was 175 and it hit 193 at finish
i was 18secs out of 5th place and 40 out of fourth (and i had a mexhanical on the road)

read what u will into that but i havent seen a reason yet to start consuming sugar again.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

nyvram said:


> i finished 6th at state TT here in tn in my division. my diet leading up to race?
> 
> i fasted thursday
> friday night i had a 16oz ribeye (nothin,g else whole day)
> ...


just think how well you would have done with a proper diet! Seriously, regardless of what you're actually eating, who recommends fasting two days before a race and skipping breakfast the day of the event? You're doing yourself no favors with those moves. Unless you ate the ribeye raw, not even the strongest Paleo advocate is going to think that's a complete day's nutrition...


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## Andrea138 (Mar 10, 2008)

There's a huge thread about this on MTBR: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=556437&highlight=paleo


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

steve..i should point out i didnt skip breakfast on purpose. ;-) i literally just forgot with all the excitement of doing my first TT and everything.


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## Hughsdad (Jan 21, 2011)

nyvram said:


> i fasted thursday
> friday night i had a 16oz ribeye (nothin,g else whole day)
> saturday (race day) i forgot to eat breakfast


Wow, you're like Grok on a bike! 
But why did you fast for almost 2 days before a race, your first TT at that?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

nyvram said:


> steve..i should point out i didnt skip breakfast on purpose. ;-) i literally just forgot with all the excitement of doing my first TT and everything.


it's good you did well in your first TT - it's a good idea to toss a few energy bars or even packs of fig newtons in your gear bag to keep in reserve for the morning of an event. Competing on an empty stomach is good to avoid.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

allison said:


> You can call it paleo or not, but generally speaking, work on removing or reducing processed foods, overly refined carbs, sugar, and sodium.
> 
> I eat "paleo" for athletes basically and it works for me. I have oats a few days a week with granola and "bike food", but when it comes to most meals my husband and I cook in, trim fat off meat, eat a lot of scrambled eggs and veggies.
> 
> ...


I follow the basic principles of the Paleo for Athletes diet. And like Allison I believe the bottom line is much of the Paleo Diet advice is also consistent with other successful "diets" or ways of eating. There is general consistency that giving up processed foods in favor of lots of fruits and vegetables and lean meats is far superior and healthier than eating processed foods.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

Hughsdad said:


> Wow, you're like Grok on a bike!
> But why did you fast for almost 2 days before a race, your first TT at that?


because i'm overdoing it..i'm trying to do everything at once..lose a massive amount of weight and train and ride well at races. 

i'm still about 15lbs overweight and that KILLS you in races here in TN since they all involve some degree of climbing.

i admit i'm trying to do too much at the same time..but its difficult for me to switch eating styles since i've been doing this for over a year..the last thing i want to do is completely change my diet the morning of a race.


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## DLd (Aug 25, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> just think how well you would have done with a proper diet! Seriously, regardless of what you're actually eating, who recommends fasting two days before a race and skipping breakfast the day of the event? You're doing yourself no favors with those moves. Unless you ate the ribeye raw, not even the strongest Paleo advocate is going to think that's a complete day's nutrition...


I agree. That's not a Paleo Diet, and it definitely doesn't follow the pre-race eating guidelines in Paleo Diet for Athletes. I don't know how far off the top you were, but if it was close I could see you having won, or at least moved up a place or two with the proper diet. You're not doing yourself any favors regarding weight loss with that diet either. Fasting is just going to tell your body it needs to store more fat the next time you eat.


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## Hughsdad (Jan 21, 2011)

DLd said:


> Fasting is just going to tell your body it needs to store more fat the next time you eat.


There is some disagreement about this. Mark Sisson, in Mark's Daily Apple, has a lot to say about intermittent fasting. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/

I'm not saying I'm a proponent of this - I hate fasting. But there are lots of different ideas out there. Sisson is an interesting guy, and a very good writer, IMO.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Hughsdad said:


> There is some disagreement about this. Mark Sisson, in Mark's Daily Apple, has a lot to say about intermittent fasting. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/
> 
> I'm not saying I'm a proponent of this - I hate fasting. But there are lots of different ideas out there. Sisson is an interesting guy, and a very good writer, IMO.


He misrepresents the effects of autophagy pretty well in that article.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

wow that article sums up exactly what ive been doing this whole year quite nicely!


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## vancouver-rider (Apr 14, 2011)

What I find amusing is that the people criticizing the Paleo Diet tend to be people who haven't tried it for themselves. Armchair critics rather than those who have really tried it for 30 days.

Here is another Paleo guy with a more academic slant: http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/


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## CoastRider_Oz (Jan 26, 2011)

V-rider: you're spot on there about armchair critics.
I've not actually attempted 'going paleo', nor will I ever (my thinking just doesn't allow me to cut out complex carbs like grains, quality pasta and potatoes), but I certainly see it's merits. I think paleo advocates one important message that any good eating regime (diet implies goal of losing weight when in actual fact we eat to fuel our body, not to lose weight) does—eat unprocessed foods and mostly fruits and vegetables.
At the end of the day, to stay healthy, eat good foods and ensure that calories in=calories burned or calories in≠calories burned as necessary to maintain or lose/gain weight.

Just my ramblings...


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

you guys who have never tried fasting should consider giving it a go.

i do my intervals on an empty stomach all the time. i feel fantastic after i've done 18 hours without eating (or more). i was eating a ton more when i did my carmichael field test and i dont see where my max intervals are suffering in any way by not eating before i do them.

as an example, my FTP was 294 watts back in march. i did a 3 minute max at 400 watts average the other day and then a 10-minute TT practice effort and averaged 300 watts during the effort. (i can post the data files if you dont believe me lol). the numbers are irrelevant..but the % of change is NOT.

so i'm definitely getting stronger and i feel like i'm not stunting my development by not wolfing down gel packs or bananas.

sure you can always say 'you could do better if..' but i'm improving every day and i've never felt better so why should i switch? 

my body simply can't handle sugar now like it used to..i drank a G2 one day (nobody had any powerade zero) and it made me sick as a dog. i had to drink a gallon of water to try & sort myself out and dilute the sugar rush.

in short, our body adapts to the 'fuel' we feed it and i'm not convinced i need a high carb diet to compete in races.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

Creakyknees said:


> That's the problem... the paleo diet is not really compatible with long rides at any pace above "touring"
> 
> ("long rides" meaning over 2-3 hours)
> 
> If you are doing centuries for time, or road races, or just want to hang with your buddies, you are going to need starchy carbs of some kind. Banana's, pbj, commercial packaged mixes, the usual suspects.


no offense but this is absolutely 100% not true. my best form comes 3-4 hours in. i get stronger and stronger over the cousre of 60-100 miles and haven't bonked once since i stopped with the sugar. there's not only one 'right way' to do things and i guess you guy won't believe me until i get a podium finish so i'm going to keep dogging it.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

One thing I've noticed is that the Paleo Diet probably falls only a little shy of doping issues in terms of the controversies it brings on internet forums. Check out the mtbr thread, linked to above, in which I have commented myself. It is surprising how some people are so against it, and of course those who believe in it in are staunch defenders.

I basically eat the paleo way these days and it has really helped me. I had already become much more lean a year before by giving up processed foods--part of the paleo recommendations--but now have more energy. It is hard to fathom how eating half a chicken and a big bowl of steamed broccoli for dinner is a perfect fuel for a hard 3 hour ride the next morning--but it works for me.


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

lol yep and heaven help u if you bring up fasting


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gatorback said:


> One thing I've noticed is that the Paleo Diet probably falls only a little shy of doping issues in terms of the controversies it brings on internet forums. Check out the mtbr thread, linked to above, in which I have commented myself. It is surprising how some people are so against it, and of course those who believe in it in are staunch defenders.
> 
> I basically eat the paleo way these days and it has really helped me. I had already become much more lean a year before by giving up processed foods--part of the paleo recommendations--but now have more energy. It is hard to fathom how eating half a chicken and a big bowl of steamed broccoli for dinner is a perfect fuel for a hard 3 hour ride the next morning--but it works for me.


60miles is around 2000 calories, so 32ounces of chicken breast and 100 ounces of broccoli. In addition to what would normally be burned of course.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

den bakker said:


> 60miles is around 2000 calories, so 32ounces of chicken breast and 100 ounces of broccoli. In addition to what would normally be burned of course.


I have been doing a regular 63 mile route much of this year every Saturday. I feel best when I have a dinner similar to what I described (lean meat and vegetables), eating cold chicken for breakfast and then a banana on my ride to the shop, and drinking two 20 oz. bottles of sports drink (Accelerade is my personal choice) during the ride. Sometimes I take a gel for the ride, other times I buy cashews or another type of nuts at a stop at about the 2 hour point. I also often don't have anything to eat on the ride and do fine. I've got plenty of energy to get me through the 63 miles (a rolling hills route that we complete in just under 3 hours most days with a group of 8-12 going the full distance and helping work). 

After the ride, I try to get some quick protein (lately with an Odwalla Protein Monster drink which isn't consistent with paleo because it has some dairy). I then of course eat lots during the rest of the day, in particular plenty of fruit. I almost always get a salad with grilled chicken at Panera Bread and eat a small piece of bread.

This isn't true paleo eating, but more similar with "Paleo for Athletes." And I find that it works for me. 


Keep in mind that on a 3 hour ride our fuel stores include glycogen stored in our muscles, glucose stored in the liver, and fat. One of the theories of the paleo diet is that it helps your body learn to burn more fat. I have quite a bit of knowledge regarding diet and nutrition, but don't claim to be able to verify the claims that it helps your body learn to burn more fat for fuel. But I do know eating the paleo way seems to work for me. And the whole idea of training your body to burn more fat is a well accepted principle in endurance sports--most people have previously just talked about doing it through training. Dr. Cordain suggests eating the paleo way will also help your body learn to burn fat.

One source I find to be very informative is Joe Freil. He obviously has some excellent credentials and was a naysayer when he first heard Cordain's stuff. But he tried it, as many scientists would, became a believer, and then co-authored the book Paleo for Athletes. 

If anyone is interested in nutrition and better performance, the paleo diet and paleo for athletes is worth a try in my estimation. Eating lean meat, fruits, and vegetables is good dietary advice no matter who you ask.


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## CoastRider_Oz (Jan 26, 2011)

Gatorback said:


> I have been doing a regular 63 mile route much of this year every Saturday. I feel best when I have a dinner similar to what I described (lean meat and vegetables), eating cold chicken for breakfast and then a banana on my ride to the shop, and drinking two 20 oz. bottles of sports drink (Accelerade is my personal choice) during the ride. Sometimes I take a gel for the ride, other times I buy cashews or another type of nuts at a stop at about the 2 hour point. I also often don't have anything to eat on the ride and do fine. I've got plenty of energy to get me through the 63 miles (a rolling hills route that we complete in just under 3 hours most days with a group of 8-12 going the full distance and helping work).
> 
> After the ride, I try to get some quick protein (lately with an Odwalla Protein Monster drink which isn't consistent with paleo because it has some dairy). I then of course eat lots during the rest of the day, in particular plenty of fruit. I almost always get a salad with grilled chicken at Panera Bread and eat a small piece of bread.
> 
> ...


What Pee's me off about the Paleo diet is the word DIET. A recent study in Australia involving 500 people showed that more than 75% of people who go on a DIET fail. What they did was have half the people "diet" and the other half "changed their eating habits". Turns out they all ate in a semi-paleo way (they just didn't know). They were allowed some grains for breakfast (porridge/oatmeal or toast or wheat-biscuits, basically whole-grain, low-sugar, unrefined types) and occasionally wholemeal/brown pasta/rice or starchy vegetables with lunch or dinner, but in no more than 5 or 6 (can't exactly remember) of those meals. The remaining foods were lean meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, etc. Funny thing about the outcome is that the half whose programme was labelled as a "DIET" had a 'failure' rate of 75% i.e. they couldn't keep to the programme and/or put weight on. The half who had their eating habits changed—that is, they weren't labelled as being on a diet—stuck to it and found no problems at all.

I'm trying to dig this report up again to post a link, but, IMHO, "diets" are a fad and useless. "Eating habits" are what's most important and we should all find healthy eating habits that are good for who we are—as has been mentioned, the human body is a spectacular thing and will adapt to the fuel we provide it...be it high carbs, no carbs, balanced. As long as the fuels we provide it are quality, the body will adapt and prevail.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

CoastRider_Oz said:


> "Eating habits" are what's most important and we should all find healthy eating habits that are good for who we are—as has been mentioned, the human body is a spectacular thing and will adapt to the fuel we provide it...be it high carbs, no carbs, balanced. As long as the fuels we provide it are quality, the body will adapt and prevail.


That is such a key point. People need to find eating habits that they can maintain for a lifetime which fit into their lifestyle and promote health. For many, these are not 'optimal', but any diet that maintains energy balance over the long haul as opposed to chronic positive energy balance is better. Be it low carb, low fat, paleo, or even (potentially the twinkie diet (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html).

The key point, at least from a weight and 'markers of health' standpoint, is energy balance. Sure we should ideally eat lots of nutrient dense foods (AKA a variety of vegetables, fruit, and grains in that order as energy expendature increases), but the cost, feasibility, and taste preferences of most people will/do not allow that. And mental health, and social aspects of diet (what you eat) are important as well. 

However, diet is what you eat. The media and lay public have made the word 'diet' it a bad thing.


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

Gatorback said:


> One of the theories of the paleo diet is that it helps your body learn to burn more fat. I have quite a bit of knowledge regarding diet and nutrition, but don't claim to be able to verify the claims that it helps your body learn to burn more fat for fuel. But I do know eating the paleo way seems to work for me. And the whole idea of training your body to burn more fat is a well accepted principle in endurance sports--most people have previously just talked about doing it through training. Dr. Cordain suggests eating the paleo way will also help your body learn to burn fat.


I am actually interested in the role of increasing fat metabolism during exercise as a research question. More specifically, ultra-endurance athletes can have difficulty with eating on the bike as far as gastic problems and taking in enough fuel to maintain high intensity exercise. While the data shows that there is not an increase in performance from "training low, competing high", I think that there may be a secondary benefit from less reliance on feeding timing and strategy. Basically a greater chance of success and less of puking, nausea, bonking, etc. 

Basically you increase fat metabolism during exercise by exercising in a less than optimal glycogen state or for a longer period (1.5h +) without carbohydrate intake. The paleo diet tends to have a higher fat, lower (available) carbohydrate intake. Thus you are likely training low (a bit less then optimal glycogen). This increases fat metabolizing enzymes which then allows you to rely on a greater amount (percent and absolute amount) at a given intensity. 

If you are interested in this topic, look up "train low, compete high" on pubmed or similar. If you want to look up more regarding low carb and exercise, look up Haub, MD, and Phinney SD on pub med.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

sdeeer said:


> I am actually interested in the role of increasing fat metabolism during exercise as a research question. More specifically, ultra-endurance athletes can have difficulty with eating on the bike as far as gastic problems and taking in enough fuel to maintain high intensity exercise. While the data shows that there is not an increase in performance from "training low, competing high", I think that there may be a secondary benefit from less reliance on feeding timing and strategy. Basically a greater chance of success and less of puking, nausea, bonking, etc.
> 
> Basically you increase fat metabolism during exercise by exercising in a less than optimal glycogen state or for a longer period (1.5h +) without carbohydrate intake. The paleo diet tends to have a higher fat, lower (available) carbohydrate intake. Thus you are likely training low (a bit less then optimal glycogen). This increases fat metabolizing enzymes which then allows you to rely on a greater amount (percent and absolute amount) at a given intensity.
> 
> If you are interested in this topic, look up "train low, compete high" on pubmed or similar. If you want to look up more regarding low carb and exercise, look up Haub, MD, and Phinney SD on pub med.


I remember a few years ago that the 24 hour mountain bike winner had to be hospitalized because of the protein concentration in his blood due to his crazy effort. Here's an article:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/10/mountain/a-freds-eye-view-craig-gordons-world-of-pain_11025

Do you think that this could happen as a result of the train low plan you're talking about? Any thoughts on muscle breakdown in training on lower carb intake?


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## sdeeer (Aug 12, 2008)

SilasCL said:


> I remember a few years ago that the 24 hour mountain bike winner had to be hospitalized because of the protein concentration in his blood due to his crazy effort. Here's an article:
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/10/mountain/a-freds-eye-view-craig-gordons-world-of-pain_11025
> 
> Do you think that this could happen as a result of the train low plan you're talking about? Any thoughts on muscle breakdown in training on lower carb intake?


At first, I was trying to think of a condition that would cause muscle protein breakdown to increase to such an extent that it would cause that problem. 

But then I clicked the article. Craig suffered from Rhabdomyolysis which is not related to diet. Basically, in this case, he exercised at such an intensity and for a long duration to the extent that his muscles were litterally breaking appart. Not just normal micro-tears that occur, but actual cell wall rupture, causing myoglobin (and other intramuscular fluid) to leak into the interstitial area and into the blood. It is bad, and toxic to the kidneys. 

Crazy cross-fitters who over do it have this all the time (makes you wonder about cross fit.... but that is way off topic).




SilasCL said:


> Do you think that this could happen as a result of the train low plan you're talking about? Any thoughts on muscle breakdown in training on lower carb intake?


Actually, protein breakdown is relatively constant and is controlled by insulin (slows it) and other hormones (epi, glucagon, cortisol, etc) which speed it up. 

During exercise the catabolic hormones are increased and insulin is blunted (even with CHO intake). So protein breakdown (MPB) increases, but is a small contribution (as a percent and absolute grams) to energy during exercise. Long duration exercise of itself increases epi and other catabolic hormones over time, some MPB. The absence or inadequate energy intake during exericse can further increase MPB during ultra-events. 

I am not up to date on the lit regarding the optimal diet strategy to reduce MPB during ultra-events, and if a specific macronutrient combo is beter than optimal calories per se. 

Finally, MPB on a low carb training plan should be similar to regular carb, assuming that energy intake is equal between the two and protein intake is either the same or higher on the low carb diet. 

I could write a few pages about muscle protein synthesis, breakdown, and balance, but I don't really want to hash all that out here. 

A good read is Phillips SM, 2004 "Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements to metabolic advantage" if you can get it 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17213878

And others from him and Tipton, Wolfe, Rennie, etc.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

CoastRider_Oz said:


> What Pee's me off about the Paleo diet is the word DIET. A recent study in Australia involving 500 people showed that more than 75% of people who go on a DIET fail. What they did was have half the people "diet" and the other half "changed their eating habits". Turns out they all ate in a semi-paleo way (they just didn't know). They were allowed some grains for breakfast (porridge/oatmeal or toast or wheat-biscuits, basically whole-grain, low-sugar, unrefined types) and occasionally wholemeal/brown pasta/rice or starchy vegetables with lunch or dinner, but in no more than 5 or 6 (can't exactly remember) of those meals. The remaining foods were lean meats, vegetables, fruits, nuts, etc. Funny thing about the outcome is that the half whose programme was labelled as a "DIET" had a 'failure' rate of 75% i.e. they couldn't keep to the programme and/or put weight on. The half who had their eating habits changed—that is, they weren't labelled as being on a diet—stuck to it and found no problems at all.
> 
> I'm trying to dig this report up again to post a link, but, IMHO, "diets" are a fad and useless. "Eating habits" are what's most important and we should all find healthy eating habits that are good for who we are—as has been mentioned, the human body is a spectacular thing and will adapt to the fuel we provide it...be it high carbs, no carbs, balanced. As long as the fuels we provide it are quality, the body will adapt and prevail.


I completely agree with you. The so called "diets" that work at not diets at all, but a change to your eating habits.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gatorback said:


> I have been doing a regular 63 mile route much of this year every Saturday. I feel best when I have a dinner similar to what I described (lean meat and vegetables), eating cold chicken for breakfast and then a banana on my ride to the shop, and drinking two 20 oz. bottles of sports drink (Accelerade is my personal choice) during the ride. Sometimes I take a gel for the ride, other times I buy cashews or another type of nuts at a stop at about the 2 hour point. I also often don't have anything to eat on the ride and do fine. I've got plenty of energy to get me through the 63 miles (a rolling hills route that we complete in just under 3 hours most days with a group of 8-12 going the full distance and helping work).
> 
> After the ride, I try to get some quick protein (lately with an Odwalla Protein Monster drink which isn't consistent with paleo because it has some dairy). I then of course eat lots during the rest of the day, in particular plenty of fruit. I almost always get a salad with grilled chicken at Panera Bread and eat a small piece of bread.
> 
> ...


so after all is said and done we are back at what used to be called a lean diet but without dairy products?
Well, except for all the "crap" sugar in it of course


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## allison (Apr 19, 2006)

It may be referred to as "diet" but generally I've found most people that eat "paleo" or 90/10 etc. are doing it as a lifestyle / base of nutrition change, and not as a temporary "diet". I know when I first started to eat that way it wasn't for a short term "diet" effect, but to change my eating habits to eat less processed food and attempt to have a healthier daily nutrition intake (what else do you call "diet"?) overall.

OT: Watch "24Solo" and you'll see the effort Craig put out. Very well done movie on the race, and crazy what happened. He still races a lot of endurance in Australia. But, he was big ringing the entire course for hours, and if I recall from the movie it was a pretty warm day also.


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## Gatorback (Jul 11, 2009)

den bakker said:


> so after all is said and done we are back at what used to be called a lean diet but without dairy products?
> Well, except for all the "crap" sugar in it of course


I certainly would not agree with that. I've essentially given up grains except for a small piece of bread at lunch on some days. I don't eat pasta at all. That is a huge difference from the "average" eating habits or diet of a vast majority of the population. Grains and pasta and added sugars represent a large portion of the calories of most Americans. There is this little obesity and diabetes problem you may have heard about. 

If you don't think that is a big change, give it a try for a month.


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

allison said:


> It may be referred to as "diet" but generally I've found most people that eat "paleo" or 90/10 etc. are doing it as a lifestyle / base of nutrition change, and not as a temporary "diet". I know when I first started to eat that way it wasn't for a short term "diet" effect, but to change my eating habits to eat less processed food and attempt to have a healthier daily nutrition intake (what else do you call "diet"?) overall.
> 
> OT: Watch "24Solo" and you'll see the effort Craig put out. Very well done movie on the race, and crazy what happened. He still races a lot of endurance in Australia. But, he was big ringing the entire course for hours, and if I recall from the movie it was a pretty warm day also.


I've been eating paleoish for about 5 years and have found no reason to change. It hasn't affected my biking in any negative way and maybe have helped.


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## aussiebullet (Sep 26, 2005)

nyvram said:


> steve..i should point out i didnt skip breakfast on purpose. ;-) i literally just forgot with all the excitement of doing my first TT and everything.


Can't say l've ever just forgotten to eat breakfast as food and a cuppa joe is usually the first thing l think of when l wake up and having food in my stomache helps me to calm the excitement/anxiety of doing a big or important race.

Anyway out of curiosity, if you had not forgotten to eat that morning what did you have planned for your breakfast/pre race meal?


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## nyvram (Apr 11, 2002)

same thing i always eat before a race:

- 3 eggs scrambled in butter with cumin, coriander, cayenne (lots of cayenne!) and a touch of salt
- 2 sausage (or bacon)

i try to do this at least 2 hours before a hard effort so i dont have anything heavy sitting in my stomach at the start.

honestly..i was running a little late because i had my checklist but was worried mainly about airing my rear tire (which had that silly plastic disk cover on it) because i had been having trouble getting the air pump to fit inside the disk.

i've never been one to 'forget' breakfast normally lol

eta 3 top 10 finishes in my last 3 races!! i'm on a roll..too bad i'm taking next week & 1/2 off to go to florida/disney


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

Gatorback said:


> I certainly would not agree with that. I've essentially given up grains except for a small piece of bread at lunch on some days. I don't eat pasta at all. That is a huge difference from the "average" eating habits or diet of a vast majority of the population. Grains and pasta and added sugars represent a large portion of the calories of most Americans. There is this little obesity and diabetes problem you may have heard about.
> 
> If you don't think that is a big change, give it a try for a month.


You can lose and/or maintain weight using just about any "diet" (meaning some combination of carbs, protein, and fat). The caveat is that people who are insulin resistant don't do well with carbs -- thus will be healthier with fewer carbs.

The best advice is to eat real food -- food you prepare yourself that has lots of fiber and veggies. Want a sweet? Eat fruit. And fat content doesn't really matter. In fact, sure low fat may actually be detrimental.

If you have the time, watch this. Since it's a talk, you can listen and take a look at the slides when you want to. Very informative.


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## glorth2 (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm on it. Love it. Remember, 80/20 as far as how strict you have to be. Eating an occassional Cliff bar is not going to kill you.


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## JasonB176 (Aug 18, 2011)

Gatorback said:


> I basically eat the paleo way these days and it has really helped me. I had already become much more lean a year before by giving up processed foods--part of the paleo recommendations--but now have more energy. *It is hard to fathom how eating half a chicken and a big bowl of steamed broccoli for dinner is a perfect fuel for a hard 3 hour ride the next morning--but it works for me*.


Works for me too! This is a great thread. It does seem the paleo question brings about some strong opinions. I just know that I've lost 35 pounds effortlessly with it and my riding has improved at the same time. It could be that some people just react better to it than others. Whatever works I guess but I don't think the diet should be discounted without first trying it.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm going to start working towards a full Esselstyn diet over the next several months. (see Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease)

Even with a very good, balanced diet, and a high level of exercise over the last several years, there are still some things about my health that continue to go down hill. Some is age related, but I'm thinking that a lot of it is diet related.

The Esselstyn diet is pretty much the total opposite of the Paleo diet.

Just remember, estimated average life expectancy of neo-paleolithic man was about 18 years. If you only plan to live that long, it's probably a fine diet.


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## glorth2 (Oct 7, 2009)

Terex said:


> I'm going to start working towards a full Esselstyn diet over the next several months. (see Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease)
> 
> Even with a very good, balanced diet, and a high level of exercise over the last several years, there are still some things about my health that continue to go down hill. Some is age related, but I'm thinking that a lot of it is diet related.
> 
> ...


And since that average had a great deal of infant mortality in it besides other crimes against humanity and negative health aspects of the time period it's really a false comparison. Apples to apples, please. What is it about your health that's going downhill and why do you think the Esselstyn diet will help you?


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

Re the infant mortality, etc., if one believes that the paleo diet was optimized for performance of paleo man, paleo man never reached 60 yrs. old, regardless of the reason. I'm not saying that I hope the paleo diet doesn't work - far from it. I totally hope that it works, and someone can provide enough valid research to prove it. I'm not 20 anymore. I'm not fighting saber tooth tigers. I'm just fighting old age. Paleold age was 20. Old age for me is now 60 and up (hopefully ).

I'm hoping that that idiopathic HBP is actually diet induced. It sure isn't controlled by exercise for me and a lot of other people. HBP is a pretty good indicator or general cardiovascular decline. Endothelial cells line the arteries, and excess fats (from meats, oils, etc.), damage the endothelium. Esselstyn also cuts out dairy, and I think that I, like many people, have a slight intolerance to dairy (except Ben & Jerry's, in moderation, of course).

The mediterranean diet (includes olive oil, fish, etc.) is just Esselstyn lite. It only looked good in comparison to a much worse diet of another test group.

I really don't want to have any "diet". For most active people, until they hit about 40 (50 if they're lucky), any decent, well balance diet will keep them healthy. And most people can eat like crap until they're about 30 if they're active.

It would be great if the actual benefits of all of these "diets" could get sorted, and allow younger people to develop eating habits in line with long term benefits. Making sea changes in your lifestyle when get older isn't easy.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the only thing that will fight aging is a calorie-restricted diet.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> the only thing that will fight aging is a calorie-restricted diet.


That's probably why the Esselstyn diet works. 

I'm still trying to find if there's any restriction on beer and wine.


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## glorth2 (Oct 7, 2009)

Terex said:


> Re the infant mortality, etc., if one believes that the paleo diet was optimized for performance of paleo man, paleo man never reached 60 yrs. old, regardless of the reason. I'm not saying that I hope the paleo diet doesn't work - far from it. I totally hope that it works, and someone can provide enough valid research to prove it. I'm not 20 anymore. I'm not fighting saber tooth tigers. I'm just fighting old age. Paleold age was 20. Old age for me is now 60 and up (hopefully ).
> 
> I'm hoping that that idiopathic HBP is actually diet induced. It sure isn't controlled by exercise for me and a lot of other people. HBP is a pretty good indicator or general cardiovascular decline. Endothelial cells line the arteries, and excess fats (from meats, oils, etc.), damage the endothelium. Esselstyn also cuts out dairy, and I think that I, like many people, have a slight intolerance to dairy (except Ben & Jerry's, in moderation, of course).
> 
> ...





Terex said:


> That's probably why the Esselstyn diet works.
> 
> I'm still trying to find if there's any restriction on beer and wine.


Re: infant mortality, I'm simply saying that those numbers being present in an average ruin the math. Assuming the baby's diet wasn't responsible for his death, those numbers being present in the discussion are irrelevant. 

All I can tell you is this. When I was married to my ex-wife and eating a normal American diet I hovered around 210lbs (6'ish). When my marriage fell apart and I was on antidepressants I shot up to the 230ish range. A while after moving out I fell upon the primal diet. I now hover between 200 and 205lbs (I was 195 at one point last year) but I am much leaner, look better but most importantly feel great. Now, I don't mean to imply that the primal or paleo diet is the only thing that will work. I actually think that my diet is fairly close to the medit. diet with less grain and more red meat (grass fed). I think that most any diet that steers away from fast food, processed food, snacks, soda and white flour and sugar will work but eating whole foods is best for reasons besides weight. I have had great success with this diet and, obviously, met others who have. More, it is easy to maintain as I am eating what I like to eat anyway. I agree with what you say about us in our younger years but I can't help but wonder how good I would've felt at 15 or 20 or 30 if I ate this way. Regarding the beer and wine, primal is anti-beer but I love me my beer. Quality of life is better than quantity and they take those years off at the end when I'd be incontinent anyway. I wish you luck in your dietary pursuits!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

A recent examination of 20 diets (not just weight loss but healthy lifelong dietary guidelines) placed the paleo diet last Top-Rated Diets Overall - US News Best Diets summed up by "Experts took issue with the Paleo diet on every measure." Their assessment does not even include the fact that it is based on a faulty premise - that we are genetically close to our paleo ancestors. Major recent genetic changes (coinciding with agriculture) make that a false premise.


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## gbarker (Jun 29, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> Major recent genetic changes (coinciding with agriculture) make that a false premise.


Steve -

Could you direct me to some research, etc. on this assertion. I'm curious as to the changes that have occurred. Thanks


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

sure, here's some sources ranging from an academic paper (Hawks is one of the major figures in this area) to Hawks et al., Recent acceleration of human adaptive evolution, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2007

Abstract. Genomic surveys in humans identify a large amount of recent positive selection. Using the 3.9-million HapMap SNP dataset, we found that selection has accelerated greatly during the last 40,000 years. We tested the null hypothesis that the observed age distribution of recent positively selected linkage blocks is consistent with a constant rate of adaptive substitution during human evolution. We show that a constant rate high enough to explain the number of recently selected variants would predict (i) site heterozygosity at least 10-fold lower than is observed in humans, (ii) a strong relationship of heterozygosity and local recombination rate, which is not observed in humans, (iii) an implausibly high number of adaptive substitutions between humans and chimpanzees, and (iv) nearly 100 times the observed number of high-frequency linkage disequilibrium blocks. Larger populations generate more new selected mutations, and we show the consistency of the observed data with the historical pattern of human population growth. We consider human demographic growth to be linked with past changes in human cultures and ecologies. Both processes have contributed to the extraordinarily rapid recent genetic evolution of our species.

Press coverage Rapid acceleration in human evolution described | Reuters

Book, 10,000 Year Explosion

John Hawks has a blog (review of above book) The 10,000 Year Explosion | john hawks weblog


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Grains got a bad rap for sometime now, but I eat whole oat groats, buckwheat, millet, quinoa, brown rice, wild rice. 

The premise that they had to be cooked in order to eat and therefore are unhealthy seems odd to me. 

Sure highly processed grains aren't a good choice in most cases, but adding those grains that I listed above to your diet mixed with some almond milk and fruit would be a healthy addition to just about anyones diet.


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## glorth2 (Oct 7, 2009)

heathb said:


> Grains got a bad rap for sometime now, but I eat whole oat groats, buckwheat, millet, quinoa, brown rice, wild rice.
> 
> The premise that they had to be cooked in order to eat and therefore are unhealthy seems odd to me.
> 
> Sure highly processed grains aren't a good choice in most cases, but adding those grains that I listed above to your diet mixed with some almond milk and fruit would be a healthy addition to just about anyones diet.


I agree, and as long as they're not making up the lion's share of your diet you should be fine.
Is Rice Unhealthy? | Mark's Daily Apple
Are Oats Healthy? | Mark's Daily Apple
Alternatives to Grains? | Mark's Daily Apple


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

glorth2 said:


> I wish you luck in your dietary pursuits!


And you with yours!

(This is one of the better threads on diet that I've read. All very mature responses, trying to be helpful. As noted previously, moderate amounts of fresh, minimally processed food combined with exercise is a good thing.)


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## gbarker (Jun 29, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> sure, here's some sources ranging from an academic paper (Hawks is one of the major figures in this area) to Hawks et al., Recent acceleration of human adaptive evolution, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2007
> .....


Steve- 

Thanks for the resources. It will make for good candy to feed the brain. After just doing some skimming of Hawks vs. Cordain, et al, it appears to be quite different conclusions. It'll be interesting to look at the supporting research.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Significant change*



gbarker said:


> I'm curious as to the changes that have occurred.


Can't provide a reference but I suspect you could easily find it with Google, but I read a couple of years ago that based on genetic studies that it is estimated that 10,000 years ago, 90% of the population of Europe was lactose intolerant. With the domestication of milk cows, there was then a huge benefit to those who could tolerate milk, and now something less than 10% of the population is lactose intolerant.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

I think it's important to keep in mind that up until the last couple of hundred years, and even to this day depending on where you live, that starvation was probably the primary selective force when it came to diet and human health. It's not at all surprising that once we domesticated animals that many human populations rapidly became lactose tolerant as adults. I suspect becoming fat and unhealthy as a consequence was only a problem for a select few of the population.

What we have nowadays is really a new situation, where we have an abundance of food and little need to perform work. So there are really two questions that seem central to me. #1 What diets help people to avoid become obese, #2 at a given stable weight what diets prevent or at least slow the development of cardiovascular disease.

I've read that when western medicine started to be practiced in Japan, they actually had to import bodies from the U.S. so their medical students could see atherosclerosis as they couldn't find it in their Japanese cadavers!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

not just cardiovascular health, but also for cancer prevention - there's more and more evidence accumulating that high body fat is a major risk factor for cancer - maybe even more so than the particular foods we eat. The World Cancer Research Fund - the blue ribbon panel and most comprehensive review of the literature Food, Nutrition, Physical Activity and the Prevention of Cancer: a Global Perspective - online gives a recommendation of a BMI between 21-23 (preferably at the lower end of this).


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## rbnyc (Feb 22, 2009)

stevesbike said:


> A recent examination of 20 diets (not just weight loss but healthy lifelong dietary guidelines) placed the paleo diet last Top-Rated Diets Overall - US News Best Diets summed up by "Experts took issue with the Paleo diet on every measure." Their assessment does not even include the fact that it is based on a faulty premise - that we are genetically close to our paleo ancestors. Major recent genetic changes (coinciding with agriculture) make that a false premise.


Dr. Loren Cordain does a pretty good job, in my opinion, in responding to the US News story.
Dr. Cordain’s Rebuttal to U.S. News and World Report Top 20 Diets | The Paleo Diet

I've gone almost total Paleo since I started this post several months ago. I never would have believed that I could go on a long ride with without a big bowl of oatmeal for breakfast. The Paleo works very well for me now.


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