# Lugged framed 4130DB SS/FG frames?



## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

How much extra is it worth to you to have a lugged frame for SS/FG?

Would you prefer lugs lined? Or prefer to be able to do lug lining yourself?

How much extra would you pay for lugs to be chromed?


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

with or without decals?


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Nice,......what do you expect frameset cost to be for chromed vs no chrome?

I vote for unlined lugs...


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> with or without decals?



Frames with out decals
Bikes with decals


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Nice,......what do you expect frameset cost to be for chromed vs no chrome?
> 
> I vote for unlined lugs...



Framesets with .8/.5/.8 butting about $349 delivered
Framesets with chromed lugs $499 delivered

Chromed lugs are super expensive

Complete bikes with very nice parts $599 [with chromed lugs $749]

Looking into chrome on CS, SS & Forks only which is about $30 to $50 extra over full paint
and maybe complete Chrome - which is about $50 to $70 extra over full paint


The Chrome lugs look FANTASTIC if you do all lugs HT, SeatCluster, BB, and fork chrown - but lots of work and money


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Framesets with .8/.5/.8 butting about $349 delivered
> Framesets with chromed lugs $499 delivered
> 
> Chromed lugs are super expensive
> ...



I like the chrome CS, SS, and Fork option.... $400 isn't bad....


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> I like the chrome CS, SS, and Fork option.... $400 isn't bad....



Would look like this but with lugs


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Would look like this but with lugs



yep...that's what I had in mind....very nice


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

Nice, but I'd like one with an extended head tube.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

I would say not too much extra... it's not like these are going to be vintage classics. underneath it all it's still a bd/whatever


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## rcnute (Dec 21, 2004)

Lugs are nice and all, but I don't see the point in spending extra for them (unless maybe going custom). Not into lug lining either. Design is most important to me. No crazy steep angles, maybe add some braze-ons for bottle cages, fender/rack mounts, etc.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

all your lugged examples are nice - I prefer painted, not lined.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

My opinion--- might not matter much---

I recommend offering something a bit higher up on the food chain. BD is already the de facto entry level fixed gear (just read SSFG at a competing forum if you need evidence). When it all comes down to price, it is just a race to the bottom, so I believe in offering more than just a good price. Why not offer a lugged bike with a branded tube set-- even if it comes in a bit more expensive? I see you are already running 520--- but I wonder how "light" it is when the seat tube looks to be a bit thicker than it might (or is this just how 520 runs).

Here is what stopped me from buying a BD frame--- I wanted no eyelets on the rear or fork, and I wanted a nicer rear set of track ends. I would have had no issues buying lugged. If indeed you are looking at selling the white frameset exactly as is, I believe there is a real market for it. The only real negative I see is the 4130DB leaves a bit of room to wonder about the tube set. Also, if you had a better color scheme to highlight the lugs, it would be more interesting (and expensive, I presume). White on white doesn't do much.

To FatTireFred- the only competitors in this space at this price range are companies like Alien--- which are even less of a brand than BD. Most bikes today won't be vintage classics, so I fail to see how it matters.

But again, to my original point--- if someone is looking to buy lugs, they already are a step or two beyond looking for an entry-level bike--- so offer a bit more, and charge accordingly.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> I would say not too much extra... it's not like these are going to be vintage classics. underneath it all it's still a bd/whatever



It is very funny
in the 70s I was selling all those frames & bikes that many people call vintage classics now -- I never knew they would be 'vintage classics'

Yesterday, I was at a car show -- you can only guess how many 'vintage classics' cars were there that were very ordinary when released

it will be interesting to see what bikes are considered 'classics' 20 or 30 years from now


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

filtersweep said:


> My opinion--- might not matter much---
> 
> I recommend offering something a bit higher up on the food chain. BD is already the de facto entry level fixed gear (just read SSFG at a competing forum if you need evidence). When it all comes down to price, it is just a race to the bottom, so I believe in offering more than just a good price. Why not offer a lugged bike with a branded tube set-- even if it comes in a bit more expensive? I see you are already running 520--- but I wonder how "light" it is when the seat tube looks to be a bit thicker than it might (or is this just how 520 runs).
> 
> ...



For performance track bikes; we are selling the Motobecane Team Track very well

On higher end tubing I have some quotes on that: lots of money to drop 80 grams
our 4130 BD is .8/.5./8 -- most old classic stuff is .9/.6/.9
For about $150 I can go to a higher level Reynolds that is .7/.4/.7

It is a hard call

Also lots of people seem to want threaded fork; whereas I think unthreaded leaves to options open -- what do you think?? Aheadset vs Traditional?


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

I can see why the Team Track does well--- and it helps that it is offered as a frameset. 

When it comes to steel, I see the fork dilemma. Normally, I preferred unthreaded, except when you run a lugged steel fork, it seems a bit odd to use a modern set-up. The trouble with threaded is you are likely stuck running 1" and then you have to also deal with 1" threadless if you want to offer both options. My last bike was tig welded, so I went threadless.




bikesdirect said:


> For performance track bikes; we are selling the Motobecane Team Track very well
> 
> On higher end tubing I have some quotes on that: lots of money to drop 80 grams
> our 4130 BD is .8/.5./8 -- most old classic stuff is .9/.6/.9
> ...


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> For performance track bikes; we are selling the Motobecane Team Track very well
> 
> On higher end tubing I have some quotes on that: lots of money to drop 80 grams
> our 4130 BD is .8/.5./8 -- most old classic stuff is .9/.6/.9
> ...



Threaded...


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## onlineflyer (Aug 8, 2005)

Something along the lines of the On-One Lincolshire Poacher. I love that bike!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

it doesn't matter... point is, it is still what it is... an inexpensive entry-level frame


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## Alx (Mar 22, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> it doesn't matter... point is, it is still what it is... an inexpensive entry-level frame


That has proven itself to be very well built and comfortable platform to build on, not all bikes have to be fancy expensive rare metals & imported from Japan to be worthy of riding. 

Count me in for chrome lugs and a threaded fork! :thumbsup:


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Alx said:


> That has proven itself to be very well built and comfortable platform to build on, not all bikes have to be fancy expensive rare metals & imported from Japan to be worthy of riding.
> 
> Count me in for chrome lugs and a threaded fork! :thumbsup:




true! just don't get snookered by those bs 'compare to' prices... lol


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

I would not pay $150 for chomed lugs, even though they do look nice. At that price-point, the upcharge makes no sense -- +40% for an aesthetic tweak on a $350 frameset? ut:

IMO, pinstriped lugs look tacky 99.99% of the time.

The prototype looks nice, but I have always liked the Soma Van Ness


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Comes back to my point of NOT making it a $350 base frameset in the first place. The other issue I would consider is actually building a brand, rather than borrowing one. Soma has done well with that concept (they don't actually make their own frames any more than any other brand in this niche), and I see the All-City line showing promise. Consider the Big Block--- just adding that unique touch (the Hennepin Ave. Bridge profile as their "signature dropout" (their words) makes a huge difference). Anything that sets the bike apart as being unique adds value, IMHO. It is all psychology.



PeanutButterBreath said:


> I would not pay $150 for chomed lugs, even though they do look nice. At that price-point, the upcharge makes no sense -- +40% for an aesthetic tweak on a $350 frameset? ut:
> 
> IMO, pinstriped lugs look tacky 99.99% of the time.
> 
> The prototype looks nice, but I have always liked the Soma Van Ness


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> Threaded...


+1. If you want to see where a good part of the market is going, consider this. From the 2009 to the 2010 catalog, QBP has tripled their offerings in 1" threaded headsets. Ditto for some other suppliers. The demand is there.

And oh by the way, Dave. I ordered the Tange Levin steel headset for the Fuso. I've given up on the '80's vintage Campy in there. It's trashed. Plus, I'm turning Japanese. Got a 27.2 Dura Ace aero post that with some work will be way cool. Along with the 600 crank and the Dura Ace 7400 front brake I'll be joining the ranks. Cinelli bar and stem, however.


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## Love Commander (Aug 20, 2009)

rcnute said:


> Design is most important to me. No crazy steep angles, maybe add some braze-ons for bottle cages, fender/rack mounts, etc.


Same here.

I wouldn't pay an upcharge for lugs. There are already plenty of nice, lugged SS/FG frames out there, and they're nearly all "track" bikes - steep angles, no significant tire clearance with room for fenders, etc.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Love Commander said:


> Same here.
> 
> I wouldn't pay an upcharge for lugs. There are already plenty of nice, lugged SS/FG frames out there, and they're nearly all "track" bikes - steep angles, no significant tire clearance with room for fenders, etc.



Under stood; I will still be bringing the 'track' version

But I may also look into a Kilo WT type with lugs or maybe Fantom Uno type with lugs
You are correct there are two completely different markets

Also first geared lugged bikes for us will be road racing: but later we may add touring type [requests for that already]


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

*Honest question. . .*



bikesdirect said:


> Also first geared lugged bikes for us will be road racing: but later we may add touring type [requests for that already]


People requested a lugged road _racing_ bike?


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Under stood; I will still be bringing the 'track' version
> 
> But I may also look into a Kilo WT type with lugs or maybe Fantom Uno type with lugs
> You are correct there are two completely different markets
> ...




so if you're gonna do it the way you want anyway, why ask? oh wait, I know... be sure to update us when the cargo ship leaves port


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> Under stood; I will still be bringing the 'track' version
> 
> But I may also look into a Kilo WT type with lugs or maybe Fantom Uno type with lugs
> You are correct there are two completely different markets
> ...


Why a Track version? Who rides these lugged bike on the track anyways form BD?

Personally would LOVE to see this lugged version with ROAD geometry and road style tires spacing. Say up to 28c without fenders?

Sorry, but track geo sucks for long FG rides.

I am dying to a a FG century here, but not on a track geo bike. TT is too short and seat angles are too steep for my body and putting in more than 50 miles at time.

The I guess a SOMA Van Ness is calling me!!


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> People requested a lugged road _racing_ bike?


Yes
we get lots of requests; some we can do and think it makes sense; some we can not do or do not think it makes sense

if we can put together a lugged steel road bike that is nice looking; nice riding; with great parts at a low price; we think it will make sense

like a Full Ultegra one with Mavics and chrome lugs at $1495 - I think it will move
and make many cyclists very happy


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> Why a Track version? Who rides these lugged bike on the track anyways form BD?
> 
> Personally would LOVE to see this lugged version with ROAD geometry and road style tires spacing. Say up to 28c without fenders?
> 
> ...



That is a nice frame; but for $700 it really should be; I think


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> so if you're gonna do it the way you want anyway, why ask?



As I said; looking for input on chrome, lug lining, pricing, threaded vs aheadset

And the plus is: also I hear what other styles are desired: including WT version, Touring type, etc

The amount of input I have gotten on this project; it is not possable to do it all; but I have learned a lot and will develop some extra models to get samples on; including the WT & Touring type {I may do a CX type also}

This type bike is for fun: volume will always be below main stream bikes ~~ but I like this type of stuff and enjoy doing a few for the pure enjoyment of it


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Who wants anything with track geo unless they race?

I have now moved parts from four peoples track bikes (all from BD) to a regular road frame. One guy hated it so much he threw his Kilo frame in the river out back and put the parts on a old Raleigh someone left at the shop. I take the BD purchase,let them ride it for a while, get sick of it, add a headset and BB, swap the parts to a good old road frame and they are happy as a clam. The "Track bike" thing sells initially until someone rides one for any distance then they want a road frame. Heck I have a Dawes and a Motobecane frame right now I would almost give away.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> like a Full Ultegra one with Mavics and chrome lugs at $1495 - I think it will move
> and make many cyclists very happy


So, cheaper 08 & 09 Kona Kapu. NTTAWWT, if there is a market.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> That is a nice frame; but for $700 it really should be; I think


Well, your frameset is $350 without chrome or tubing upgrades. $500 with chrome. You quoted another $150 upcharge for "higher level Reynolds", putting your comparable frameset at $650 (assuming Tange Prestige comparable).

I think the Soma offers a better configuration for the most likely use (rear brake routing and road geo), but that is just me. If I were going to pay $650 for a frame, an extra $50 is no big deal. On the other hand, if I could have similar functionality to the Van Ness for half the price, that would be also be an easy choice.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

PeanutButterBreath said:


> Well, your frameset is $350 without chrome or tubing upgrades. $500 with chrome. You quoted another $150 upcharge for "higher level Reynolds", putting your comparable frameset at $650 (assuming Tange Prestige comparable).
> 
> I think the Soma offers a better configuration for the most likely use (rear brake routing and road geo), but that is just me. If I were going to pay $650 for a frame, an extra $50 is no big deal. On the other hand, if I could have similar functionality to the Van Ness for half the price, that would be also be an easy choice.



Very good point. Each frame we do must be a great value; or else we can not sell them as quickly as our biz model requires.

Plus there is surely a market for the pure track version we have sample coming on - and a market for a wider tire SS/FG version. A road version seems to have some demand too; but price must be right.

Comes down to this for me: lugged steel frames and great; but if price gets too close to Ti, then demand will dry up.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

A from Il said:


> Who wants anything with track geo unless they race?
> 
> I have now moved parts from four peoples track bikes (all from BD) to a regular road frame. One guy hated it so much he threw his Kilo frame in the river out back and put the parts on a old Raleigh someone left at the shop. I take the BD purchase,let them ride it for a while, get sick of it, add a headset and BB, swap the parts to a good old road frame and they are happy as a clam. The "Track bike" thing sells initially until someone rides one for any distance then they want a road frame. Heck I have a Dawes and a Motobecane frame right now I would almost give away.



People want track frames and bikes; I can tell you that ~~ as they sell very well
But I also think for many people a longer frame with room for wider tires makes sense.
Thus we have the Timeline, Kilo WT, Fantom UNO, and Kilo WT5 - which sell, but not as well as the track bikes.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> People want track frames and bikes; I can tell you that ~~ as they sell very well
> But I also think for many people a longer frame with room for wider tires makes sense.
> Thus we have the Timeline, Kilo WT, Fantom UNO, and Kilo WT5 - which sell, but not as well as the track bikes.


Of course. Track bikes are cool. You know that.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

bikesdirect said:


> That is a nice frame; but for $700 it really should be; I think


$700 is MSRP. It can be had for $550 and I can get it for $450 shipped at my pricing.


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## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Judging by what I read on other fixed gear forums, many people riding fixed don't ride for significant distances at all. Who wants to ride any distance wearing women's jeans and a hoodie? Half the "track" bikes I see ridden do not even look set up properly--- like frames that are 2 sizes too small, etc...

Odd how the people you moved parts for cannot even do that themselves.... just saying, you are likely dealing with a bunch of dilettantes.

I wanted track geo because I already have four other bikes---- wanted something different. Frankly, it isn't THAT different.





A from Il said:


> Who wants anything with track geo unless they race?
> 
> I have now moved parts from four peoples track bikes (all from BD) to a regular road frame. One guy hated it so much he threw his Kilo frame in the river out back and put the parts on a old Raleigh someone left at the shop. I take the BD purchase,let them ride it for a while, get sick of it, add a headset and BB, swap the parts to a good old road frame and they are happy as a clam. The "Track bike" thing sells initially until someone rides one for any distance then they want a road frame. Heck I have a Dawes and a Motobecane frame right now I would almost give away.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

filtersweep said:


> Judging by what I read on other fixed gear forums, many people riding fixed don't ride for significant distances at all. Who wants to ride any distance wearing women's jeans and a hoodie? Half the "track" bikes I see ridden do not even look set up properly--- like frames that are 2 sizes too small, etc...
> 
> Odd how the people you moved parts for cannot even do that themselves.... just saying, you are likely dealing with a bunch of dilettantes.
> 
> I wanted track geo because I already have four other bikes---- wanted something different. *Frankly, **it isn't THAT different*.




try it wearing women's jeans and a hoodie!


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

DIRT BOY said:


> $700 is MSRP. It can be had for $550 and I can get it for $450 shipped at my pricing.



$450 for that frame is a smoking deal


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

filtersweep said:


> Frankly, it isn't THAT different.


Its is for me. I use my Schwinn Madison as my fixed LD ride. It requiues me to use a 130mm stem (maybe 120m with BH) and with a 25mm setback post and a BROOKS Team Pro I STILL can't get the seat back enough to mimic the position I want/need to match my body and my road bike which I use a 110mm stem and a 25mm SB post with a saddle mounted in the middle/front.

Same with my Kilo TT. Expect the seat angle works on that frame close enough.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

bikesdirect said:


> Each frame we do must be a great value; or else we can not sell them as quickly as our biz model requires.


I would _guess_ that this would rule out stuff like chrome at the cost you quoted. . .



bikesdirect said:


> Comes down to this for me: lugged steel frames and great; but if price gets too close to Ti, then demand will dry up.


If or when? Have you seen this with other models/research?

I'm sure that every time the price of Ti frames drops another chunk of people jump at the chance to own one. However, it is not ideal for every application, either technically or aesthetically. Personally, I see the two as having pretty distinct appeals, regardless of their relative price points (not that I represent any significant market).


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## Alx (Mar 22, 2007)

A from Il said:


> Who wants anything with track geo unless they race?
> 
> I have now moved parts from four peoples track bikes (all from BD) to a regular road frame. One guy hated it so much he threw his Kilo frame in the river out back and put the parts on a old Raleigh someone left at the shop. I take the BD purchase,let them ride it for a while, get sick of it, add a headset and BB, swap the parts to a good old road frame and they are happy as a clam. The "Track bike" thing sells initially until someone rides one for any distance then they want a road frame. Heck I have a Dawes and a Motobecane frame right now I would almost give away.


First of all, whether or not you agree with riding a track geo bike on the street, why would you discard a perfectly good frame? Also why would you throw said frame in a river of all places? Right from the start your story sounds ridiculous and it explains the type of people who pay you to swap parts from one frame to another. These people can't even do the work themselves, what makes you think their opinion about ride comfort has any merit? It doesn't to me at least that your general blanket statement about these bikes should deter anyone from buying one, simply because the people you deal with can't handle the angles of a track bike!


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Alx said:


> First of all, whether or not you agree with riding a track geo bike on the street, why would you discard a perfectly good frame? Also why would you throw said frame in a river of all places? Right from the start your story sounds ridiculous and it explains the type of people who pay you to swap parts from one frame to another. These people can't even do the work themselves, what makes you think their opinion about ride comfort has any merit? It doesn't to me at least that your general blanket statement about these bikes should deter anyone from buying one, simply because the people you deal with can't handle the angles of a track bike!


I only deal with people who pay. Their opinion on geometry dosent matter. You and I both know that. Why do I have all this crap laying around? I dont know. I get jobs form a small high end bike shop that just cant or dosent want to do them. Primarily due to his schedule. 
Now back to the point............. You and I both know that these "track" bikes that BD sells are targeted mostly for the hipster crowd. Well what happens when they buy one to be cool? They discover that after three months that bike they bought is wrong for them and something has to change. 
I have swapped parts to bigger frames, better frames, different.you name it. Why because they had the money and the want. If you have both of those, you too can hire my services. Thats the bottom line. Like it or not, I do it for the money and for the fun. Mostly for the money. 

BTW. they dont end up in the river but on CL to start the cycle all over again. Most of the guys buying these ditched stepchildren frames cant be told anything anyway.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Alx said:


> First of all, whether or not you agree with riding a track geo bike on the street, why would you discard a perfectly good frame? Also why would you throw said frame in a river of all places? Right from the start your story sounds ridiculous and it explains the type of people who pay you to swap parts from one frame to another. These people can't even do the work themselves, what makes you think their opinion about ride comfort has any merit? It doesn't to me at least that your general blanket statement about these bikes should deter anyone from buying one, simply because the people you deal with can't handle the angles of a track bike!


And so we are clear I also put together 8-12 bikes a year that people buy from BD. My local shop wont assemble bikes that people buy on the internet. I get the referral. Why? For the money again.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Mike, I aren't in the market to buy a track bike(just did) but if I wanted a chromed lugged track bike I would be looking at a lighter grade of tubing and wanting the threadless option. Depends if the buyer is interested more in aesthetics over performance. Visually lugs look nice and at the price points you mentioned I doubt you would have trouble moving them.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

How about the look of lugs with the Nickel Plating?
Thinking of cooper, black chrome, and chrome also: but this nickel plating is nice IMO














































Or do you prefer painted?


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Nickle plating is sharp and not too often seen. I may not like the geo but that would look really good. It would look even better if it was available geared. And with a Sram force groupset.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Looks like a Soma Van Ness and a Bianchi Pista hooked up in the alley behind a dive bar after too many PBRs


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

offer prethreaded (and sized) steerers for those that want them... or don't chrome/plate the steerer tube


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## Jim311 (Sep 18, 2009)

I have a Kilo TT that is my exclusive entry into road riding. I bought it because it was good quality for the money. I don't plan on riding any centuries on it. If I'm going to spend a day riding it will be on my mountain bike. If I want to spend an afternoon cruising a bike path or riding in the country, I'll take my Kilo. I have quite a few spacers under the stem to bring the bars up into a more upright position, and it's been comfortable for me on rides of up to 30 miles, and I could ride longer if I felt like it. Am I missing out here? Is a "road" specific frame like the holy grail of comfortable rides? Considering that the sum of the parts on the TT is probably worth close to what you paid for the whole bike, have you really lost any money if you just put those parts on a road specific frame?


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