# trouble sealing tubeless - ideas?



## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm having trouble getting my tire to seal up & thought I see if there were any ideas or suggestions.

Here is the odd part - I pulled off the tire because it was worn, I put on the same make/model of tire on the same wheel and it won't seal. That tire had been on since last fall.

Details:
Mavic Ksyrium wheel
Stans yellow tape on rim (1 wrap)
Stans rim strip
Vittoria XG tire

I removed the worn tire, cleaned the rim with soap and water to remove hardened Stans latex. Installed tire with no levers to keep the bead tight. Tire bead and rim were soaped. Tire wouldn't seal with floor pump. Tire did seal with a CO2. Stayed full overnight, approx. 10 hours. Was flat next morning.

Borrowed a pals compressor to hit it. Resoaped the beads and rim, put valve at 12, wouldn't seal at all with the compressor.

Confused what I should try next. Another layer of rim tape? (seems odd, as it worked for months with just one wrap.) I know tire sizing can vary even with the same model, but using a compressor it doesn't hold any air at all, just stays full flat. I've also tried holding the tire down on the rim at the valve to allow it to seat, but no dice.

I'm trying to seat/test the tire without latex before adding it.

Thanks for any feedback!


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## pretender (Sep 18, 2007)

Did you not put sealant in there? If not, put in sealant and when you get the tire inflated, take it out for a short ride and slosh the stuff around so it can (hopefully) fill any microleaks.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

WHen it sealed up, why wasn't there sealant in the tire?

Afterwards, then you do the shake & rotate and let it sit down, and repeat until it is fully sealed.

My compressor, is adjustable on how much of a blast (via psi) I can release.... if your compressor the same?


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## sslos (Aug 11, 2003)

Piling on. You should be pretty amazed that you tire held air for 10 hours without sealant.
Put sealant in there, remove the valve core, then air it up. The additional volume allowed through the core-less valve will help seat the beads, and the sealant will, um, seal the small holes and bead imperfections that all non-UST tires have.
When the beads set, make sure you do the "Stan's shake" to distribute the sealant, and I'd strongly recommend also riding the wheel for a bit immediately afterwards.

Los


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

sslos said:


> I'd strongly recommend also riding the wheel for a bit immediately afterwards.
> 
> Los


You have to give it time for the sealant to do its job first. Once you know it is sealed, then you can go riding afterwards. Otherwise, you risk breaking the seal that you're trying hard to get.


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## jct78 (Dec 12, 2011)

i had similar issues trying to get a captain control 2BR tire to hold air. i was dropping 20psi over night. i added more sealant and set the tires on their side overnight after doing the shake and rotate. after 2 nights, the tires were very solid. no more issues.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thank you for the replies.

Aren't you supposed to first inflate the tire without latex and make sure it seals before adding the sealant? I thought this was the procedure.

And, shouldn't the tire hold air without sealant? I thought the latex filled punctures, but wasn't necessarily needed to have the tire seat and hold air.

Not sure if the compressor has an adjustment to allow for different levels of blasts. I thought about this though, I'll see. I borrowed it from a friend, not mine.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh, and are you guys using Stans Rim Strips or others?

In trying to remove the valve core, it was stuck and I turned the valve stem right off the rim strip.

Oh, and I have a little thingey that seems like it's a valve core removal tool. Seems like one side is for Schraeder, the other for presta. I cannot figure out how to use it though. Feeling like a real idiot here. Like this:
Sunlite Tool Valve Core Remover Sunlt | eBay


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

nayr497 said:


> Thank you for the replies.
> 
> Aren't you supposed to first inflate the tire without latex and make sure it seals before adding the sealant? I thought this was the procedure.
> 
> ...


The Mavic Kysrium is not designed to be a tubeless rim.

Yes, you're supposed verify if it could hold air initially, then you release the air and fill with sealant and refill with air. Then you do the shake and rotate and sit (and repeat) until all leaks are sealed.


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

nayr497 said:


> Oh, and are you guys using Stans Rim Strips or others?
> 
> In trying to remove the valve core, it was stuck and I turned the valve stem right off the rim strip.
> 
> ...


That is only for a schraeder valve. Use two pair of pliers for presta, one to hold the valve neck and the other to grab the valve core.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the reply.

Right, I know the Ksyrium is not a tubeless-specific rim.

The problem is that I took the tire off and am back at square one right now. And, I can't get the tire to hold any air at all, not even with a compressor.

But, are you saying I confirmed this tire/rim will work tubelessly and thus I should proceed to using sealant? Is that the only point of the initial sealant-less inflation?

And, even with sealant I'm not sure this will seal up, as they tire doesn't even get mildly firm, air just goes right in, then right out.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

nayr497 said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Right, I know the Ksyrium is not a tubeless-specific rim.
> 
> ...


You said, you got it to seal with CO2 right. THen blast it again to seat it, then fit it up with sealant through the valve core, being careful not to unseat the bead.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Yes, I did get it to seal with a CO2 cartridge. But, shouldn't the compressor work just as well as a CO2 to initially seat it?

Since the first CO2 inflation I removed the tire, cleaned the rim again, soaped and reinstalled tire, now tried to seat it with the compressor. I guess maybe the CO2 has the initial blast and maybe this compressor doesn't quite have that umph?

Also, none of this is happening until the rim strip I ordered arrives. None of the LBS's had any and the Stan's Cross strip is actually kind of hard to find.


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## mucker (Jan 16, 2011)

Is the new tire a TNT(tubeless ready) model or just a regular vittoria XG clincher? If it's not a TNT you may need to use the cross strips to get it to be secure.

The only tires that didn't require sealant were UST certified tires(not sure how many are still out there). Tubeless ready tires and standard clinchers run tubeless require sealant.

I just installed the TNT XG on a set of Stan's rims and needed to use tire levers to get them on. Both tires inflated with a floor pump. I deflated them and put in the sealant and reinflated the tires.

My front tire wasn't holding air overnight and on a whim I decided to reinstall the tires. I deflated what air was left, popped the beads off the shelf and tried to reinflate them. Reinflating was a little harder this time. I had to make sure that both beads were in the center channel of the rim and I had to hang the tire before it inflated. It has been holding air a lot better then the first time I installed them.

My guess is the beads must have stretched slightly after the initial installation and weren't fitting on the rim as tightly as when they were brand new.


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## MTBer4life (Dec 9, 2008)

let me take a shot...

sounds like you are aware on a non stans rim you have to have the strip. However, for any tire (other than ust) you have to have sealant in there for it to hold air over night because the tires are porous and will let air seep out. So you it should seat without sealant, but it wont hold air for any length of time. 

so as far as getting it to seat, it sounds like the tire is not ideal for tubeless use. If you can get it on without levers the bead is not tight enough to easily seat tubeless. I run Mud2's tubeless and end up breaking a lever or two every time i put them on they are so tight. Also, if you do get it to seat, as you did, i would be concerned with it burping air do to the loose bead. 

Also if you are trying to get it to seat without the rim strip that would be a problem as well. Further, dont try the two layers of stans tape. 

In sum, once you get the strip, go ahead and put the stans sealant in. then you might have some difficulty getting it to seat because the bead is loose, but if it happened once it should happen again.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

Not to be dim about this, but upon last install I was trying to seat the tire with the rim strip installed and no sealant in order to make sure it was seated. I thought this was the procedure prior to adding the sealant? If it did seat initially, I was going to remove the valve core, add sealant, then inflate.

Even with a compressor, I couldn't get it to seat. I'm confused why a compressor wouldn't work as well as the CO2 did.

And, if it isn't seating without sealant, seems like adding it and then trying to seat it would just cause a mess as the latex is forced out along the bead.

I don't think these are TNT Vittorias, didn't realize they offered those. I picked these up back in May.

I always try to install all tires without levers. I ride open clinchers on road bikes with latex tubes and it's best to not stretch the bead by using tires. These Vittorias are snug, not broken lever snug, but they aren't easy to get on.


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## sslos (Aug 11, 2003)

tednugent said:


> You have to give it time for the sealant to do its job first. Once you know it is sealed, then you can go riding afterwards. Otherwise, you risk breaking the seal that you're trying hard to get.


Taking the "immediately" a bit too literally there, man. 

Los


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## sslos (Aug 11, 2003)

nayr497 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Not to be dim about this, but upon last install I was trying to seat the tire with the rim strip installed and no sealant in order to make sure it was seated. I thought this was the procedure prior to adding the sealant? If it did seat initially, I was going to remove the valve core, add sealant, then inflate.
> 
> ...


Is this a small, portable compressor? You may not have the air volume (measured in cubic feet per minute) to get the beads to seat. With a CO2 cartridge, you're pushing a fairly substantial volume of gas into the tire. 
As far as using sealant- if there are leaks at the bead, there may be some sealant loss, but that same sealant will help stop those leaks.

Los


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Los,

You got it...yup, a small lil' Sears compressor. I was thinking that. I used the LBS one last time to seat this model of tire on this wheel, worked. This little guy is just not doing it.

Okay, so I guess I'm either C02ing or LBSing it. I feel wasteful using the C02s, can you recycle them? Is the canister Al or some other recyclable metal?

Got it, I'll hit it with C02, then add sealant once I know it is seated.

Thanks for all the helpful replies. Get yer cross on this weekend, lads!


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> You have to give it time for the sealant to do its job first. Once you know it is sealed, then you can go riding afterwards. Otherwise, you risk breaking the seal that you're trying hard to get.


What?!? I'll totally agree w/ sslos. You should ride the wheel right after inflating it for the best chance of success. With 40-50psi there is pretty much zero chance of "breaking the seal", or having the bead un-seat. 
Inflate it, ride it. Done.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> What?!? I'll totally agree w/ sslos. You should ride the wheel right after inflating it for the best chance of success. With 40-50psi there is pretty much zero chance of "breaking the seal", or having the bead un-seat.
> Inflate it, ride it. Done.


If you're running 40-50, you're losing one of the benefits of going tubeless. DO you max out the pressures with your tubulars? (unless you weigh 200+ lbs)

I'm at 195 lbs, and run a touch less than 30 in the rear (with the Vittoria XG Pro TNT, which I did buy back in May 2013).

According to Stan's tubeless conversion kit, it says nothing about immediately going out and ride. It focuses on letting the sealant do its sealing first.

Actually, when I removed my tire from the wheel, in order to clean out the "coral", the bead did stretch slightly with the Vittorias, I did have 1 or 2 very small bead leaks for the sealant to seal (compared to the first time I seated the bead, I had no leaks). But, it took a few minutes of letting the sealant do its job, then I went out and rode (deflating the tires to the necessary pressures)


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> If you're running 40-50, you're losing one of the benefits of going tubeless. DO you max out the pressures with your tubulars? (unless you weigh 200+ lbs)
> 
> I'm at 195 lbs, and run a touch less than 30 in the rear (with the Vittoria XG Pro TNT, which I did buy back in May 2013).
> 
> ...


No...the pressure you seat the beads with and might want to use on the initial ride have NOTHING to do w/ the pressure you'll normally ride with. I'm not sure how you think the Stans will 'do it's job' if you just stand the bike in a corner and let it sit. You end up (obviously) w/ a puddle of sealant in maybe 10% of the tire, and virtually no sealant anywhere else. 
OTOH if you inflated the tire to a nice, firm pressure and ride it around for 30mins or so you'll thoroughly coat the inside of the rim/tire w/ sealant and you stand a much better chance of the tire holding air reliably. 
I've been installing tubeless tires since '07 when i worked for a pro mtb team. I've probably done hundreds of installs over the years and they always work best when you can ride them a little right after you seat the bead. I've never had one fail because the sealant hadn't been given a chance to 'do it's thing'. 
If you want to take a crack at explaining how letting a tire sit w/ a puddle of stans in one spot is going to seal the whole tire, go for it.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> No...the pressure you seat the beads with and might want to use on the initial ride have NOTHING to do w/ the pressure you'll normally ride with. I'm not sure how you think the Stans will 'do it's job' if you just stand the bike in a corner and let it sit. You end up (obviously) w/ a puddle of sealant in maybe 10% of the tire, and virtually no sealant anywhere else.
> OTOH if you inflated the tire to a nice, firm pressure and ride it around for 30mins or so you'll thoroughly coat the inside of the rim/tire w/ sealant and you stand a much better chance of the tire holding air reliably.
> I've been installing tubeless tires since '07 when i worked for a pro mtb team. I've probably done hundreds of installs over the years and they always work best when you can ride them a little right after you seat the bead. I've never had one fail because the sealant hadn't been given a chance to 'do it's thing'.
> If you want to take a crack at explaining how letting a tire sit w/ a puddle of stans in one spot is going to seal the whole tire, go for it.


Where did I say, you let the bike sit in a corner to supposedly let the sealant do its job?

I didn't.

I said: 



tednugent said:


> WHen it sealed up, why wasn't there sealant in the tire?
> 
> *Afterwards, then you do the shake & rotate and let it sit down, and repeat until it is fully sealed.
> *
> My compressor, is adjustable on how much of a blast (via psi) I can release.... if your compressor the same?



Also, apparently, you nevered done a Schwalbe Racing Ralph tubeless install, those you can't ride right away, because the sidewall is so thin and porous, it seeps sealant.... so you have to let the sealant do its job to fully seal the tire, so that it becomes air tight, then you can go riding with it.

I doubt you have done the even more ghetto tubeless, using a split tube, instead of a pre-purchased rim strip... those can leak even more, which you have to allow the sealant to do its job and seal all the leaks first.... before you can go ride on it.

Then again, you did say "Pro" teams, so I doubt they'll be using any ghetto methods unlike the normal riders that ride tubeless.

Yes, when you use a UST or tubeless ready rim, along with a UST or tubeless ready tire, sealing issues are minimized, and you can ride immediately.

But, since the Kysrium is not a tubeless ready or UST wheelset and there is question about the OP's tire whether they are TNT or not... if it sealed up properly the first time, there would be no issue and no thread about this made.

P.S.
where does he say go out and ride immediately or let it in a corner and pray for the best?

NoTubes Tubeless-Kit Installation - YouTube


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## clydeone (Oct 25, 2011)

tednugent said:


> Also, apparently, you nevered done a Schwalbe Racing Ralph tubeless install, those you can't ride right away, because the sidewall is so thin and porous, it seeps sealant.... so you have to let the sealant do its job to fully seal the tire, so that it becomes air tight, then you can go riding with it.


The tire does not have to be "fully sealed" to allow you to go take a ride as a matter of fact I have 2 sets of tires that always weep sealant and yet are still perfectly capable of being raced or ridden. So that part of your statement don't hold much water. For the record I do the shake and lay down at least 2 times on each side and like them not to lose too much air overnight(depending on the tire generally a couple of pounds) . I generally do not use UST or tubeless ready tires and have used Gorilla Tape, ghetto, stan's rims and Bontrager's system for tubeless. I have ridden tires in an attempt to get the sidewalls to seal and this was advice from Notubes that they did publish at one time(admittedly I cannot locate it now). This was done in and attempt to flex and open the pores in the sidewalls to let the sealant seal them. 

I'm not sure why we are arguing the "right" way to do this, when its all just seat of the pants engineering that developed most of these systems. I would say any suggestion would be valuable if people have experience with the suggested solution fixing the problem. After all its not rocket science.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tednugent said:


> Where did I say, you let the bike sit in a corner to supposedly let the sealant do its job?
> 
> I didn't.
> 
> ...


Firstly, you said...and I copied/pasted "You have to give it time for the sealant to do its job first." 
As I posted before, if you're not riding it's sitting around w/ a puddle in the bottom of the tire. 

Since when do "normal" riders use ghetto tubeless? It's my impression that most people do it the "right way" and a very few actually do the ghetto method.


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## lbkwak (Feb 22, 2012)

tednugent said:


> Where did I say, you let the bike sit in a corner to supposedly let the sealant do its job?
> 
> I didn't.
> 
> ...


I'm also a mechanic. Yes, you can ride Racing Ralph right away after 2bless installation.

And I've worked with Pro's and they do a lot of "ghetto" 2bless then you think.


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## sslos (Aug 11, 2003)

Basically, as a bike mechanic for the last 22 years, and having set up all sorts of tubeless systems/conversions over the last 8 years or so, I've done the same process. As soon as the tire is holding air (small, slow leaks notwithstanding,) put the wheels on the bike and go ride around the parking lot. This not only helps distribute the sealant, but also flexes the sidewalls and casing, allowing the latex to get into the pinholes and any gaps in the bead.
This has worked successfully for literally hundreds of tires- UST, Stan's, 2Bliss, TnT, "ghetto" split tube, gorilla tape... you name it, I use that process. It works.

Los


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

A lot of good information here.

I'm installing new tires (Vittoria XGs on the same rims) and while the rear seated right away, the front won't seal. Not with a small compressor, not with a CO2, and not with the LBS compressor.

Very confused, as I installed both in the same way. Rear tire held just air, with no sealant, and seated. Couldn't get the front to hold just air, figured the sealant would help, added it, still no sealing.

Both wheels have one wrap of yellow Stan's tape, one Stan's rim strip, and 2 oz. of latex.

I guess this can take a few different tries, as is demonstrated by the experiences shared in the thread.

Oh well, I guess I can watch the CX national champs. and work on it today.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

And I forgot to add - when I hit it with the shop compressor, more PSI than my small home one, the tire did seat and seal but lasted only for around 10-15 minutes before deflating.

I think that means I'm close. Add more sealant? Try riding/spinning it? Or riding it?


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## davemess (Dec 26, 2008)

Do you have any irregularities in the rim, like dents? And you're not seeing sealant seeping out anywhere? I would try it "Ghetto" and see if that solves the problem. I had/have a wheel that has been losing air through a fault seal around the valve. I'm hoping this isn't the case as the strips were new, right?

Wait, have you NOT been spinning it? I was always taught that that is sealing 101.


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## nayr497 (Nov 8, 2008)

Hey dave,

Thanks for the reply. Nope, I was spinning it.

The valve core wouldn't unscrew, despite various efforts and having only hand-tightened it. It eventually ripped off. Darn, what a waste of $20.

I had another Stan's Rim Strip on hand, installed that, soaped and water tire bead, a bit more latex, got it to seal.

Both tires seem to have sealed and I just rode around the block to distribute the latex.

Have no idea what the issue was, but seems to be okay. For now.


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## adam_mac84 (Sep 22, 2010)

This seems like such a great option for CX... where the tubeless fans say it is so much easier to swap tire treads before a race than tubular... 

I do have 1 set of tubeless for CX single track. I am using a non-specialtubeless tire, so needs sealant. This is the best response I saw fro my experiences



tednugent said:


> The Mavic Kysrium is not designed to be a tubeless rim.
> 
> Yes, you're supposed verify if it could hold air initially, then you release the air and fill with sealant and refill with air. Then you do the shake and rotate and sit (and repeat) until all leaks are sealed.


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## NoahD (Jan 21, 2003)

Ive found an extra layer of stans yellow tape does wonders for situations like this; eliminating the center channel is the key, especially with Mavic rims.


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## J-K (Nov 5, 2006)

Yes, but mostly to aid inflation. I would allways use a rubber rimstrip with such rims. The rim bed does not have the flat sides of tubeless ready rims, so there is nothing that prevents the beads from sliding back to the rim centre in the event of a burp.

With a rubber rimstrip, the strip simply curls back with the bead, which prevents the seal from being broken.


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