# Any better value than Neuvation F100?



## gabeg (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm buying my first road bike and have been doing TONS of research for the last few months. I've come across many bikes and a lot of recommendations. Ultimately, I seem to keep coming back to the Neuvation F100 with full Rival at $1,295; the Cannondale CAAD9 4 or 5 also seem like a lot of bike for the $. 

Before I pull the trigger, I'd like to see if anyone has any other thoughts on better values ($1,500 to $2,000) you've come across.

Thanks for sharing your $0.02!

- Gabe


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## nosaj111 (Sep 19, 2008)

I doubt you can find a better deal, you could check out the bikesdirect web site for a quick comparison.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

gabeg said:


> *I'm buying my first road bike and have been doing TONS of research for the last few months.* I've come across many bikes and a lot of recommendations. Ultimately, I seem to keep coming back to the Neuvation F100 with full Rival at $1,295; the Cannondale CAAD9 4 or 5 also seem like a lot of bike for the $.
> 
> *Before I pull the trigger, I'd like to see if anyone has any other thoughts on better values *($1,500 to $2,000) you've come across.
> 
> ...


Define _value_. 

If you buy online and get 'more for your money', but the bike doesn't fit or feel right, did you get a lot of bike for your money? Probably. Are you going to continue to ride it? Probably not.

Considering fit matters most, IMO you need to turn your attention towards determining sizing requirements, and (again IMO) online retailers are hard pressed to match a LBS in their ability to size a rider. 

That given, if you're hellbent on going with Neuvation, go to your LBS and pay a nominal fee for a fitting beforehand. You'll come away knowing what geo works best for you, what reach requirements you have, and from there can compare those numbers to the Neuvations. 

OTOH if you are open to visiting LBS's (you mentioned C'dale) that would IMO be the much preferred method of buying a first bike. You'll get a first rate bike (and there are others) along with all the services LBS's offer, before and after the sale. 

There's a similar thread going in this forum where I go into more detail, but the moral of my story remains the same. The much safer route is through a LBS, especially for a first road bike purchase.


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## gabeg (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm definitely open to using an LBS; I agree that a good fit is key. I have heard that John over at Neuvation will switch things out for you for the first few months to get the right fit. However, that's not a match for a good fit at an LBS, I'm sure.

Bottom line is I'm looking for the best VALUE (around $1,500) not necessarily the cheapest bike. Again, I continue to hear the most about the Neuvation and CAAD9s, so any other thoughts are appreciated.


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## T. Slothrop (Mar 31, 2010)

I built my own bike for about $1200. It's one of those generic Al frames with SRAM Force except for an Ultegra SL compact crankset. It took me two months to get all the parts together. I also spent $200 on tools. 

I would choose the CAAD9 over the Neuvation. I think CAAD9s are cool bikes. The Neuvation doesn't do much for me. Strong feelings one way or the other are up to you. As long as you don't end up with something too small or too big, you can't go wrong with whatever you think looks the best.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

gabeg said:


> I'm definitely open to using an LBS; I agree that a good fit is key. I have heard that John over at Neuvation will switch things out for you for the first few months to get the right fit. However, that's not a match for a good fit at an LBS, I'm sure.
> 
> Bottom line is I'm looking for the best VALUE (around $1,500) not necessarily the cheapest bike. Again, I continue to hear the most about the Neuvation and CAAD9s, so any other thoughts are appreciated.


It's good to know you're open to going with your LBS. 

Yes, I've heard the same about Neuvation's willingness to swap out stems, but keep in mind that there's a difference between sizing and fit. Get the frame size wrong and no amount of tinkering will yield the best fit. And f/r weight distribution (thus, handling) may be adversely affected in the process. Conversely, get the size right and tweaking fit is all that is necessary.

Given your price range and in the same vane as the Neuvation and CAAD9's, you also have the Specialized Allez, Scott Speedsters, Jamis Ventura line, Trek 2.1, and there are others.

One of the main advantages of working with LBS's on this is that you'll get to test ride some bikes and become familiar with your LBS's. IME that's the best way to determine your preferences for fit/ feel, ride and handling _along_ with deciding which LBS you prefer.


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## bateswil (Jan 23, 2010)

I bought the Neuvation F100 two months ago for my first bike. I also went with SRAM Rival. With just some quick adjustments guided by some people that knew what they are doing, the bike fits me well and feels great to ride. I would not have any hesitation if I were you about buying online. Neuvation will treat you right. 

The posts about LBS are well intentioned, but misguided in my opinion. No bike shop is going to let you ride or borrow a bike long enough, multiple bikes for that matter, to really get a feel for what you like. Do you know a bike shop that will let you get out on several bikes, keep them extended periods to get a feel? I don't.

I do know that LBS guys feel threatened by companies like Neuvation. They just cannot come remotely close to the type of deal Neuvation puts together.

I would talk to someone that knows something about frame size. You want to get that right. From there, the Neuvations guys will work with you to put the bike together so it is comfortable for you.

Anyway, I love my Neuvation. I have family members that have spent a couple of thousand more on their bikes, and after seeing mine, wish they could do it again and go with the Neuvation.


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## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

bateswil said:


> The posts about LBS are well intentioned, but misguided in my opinion. No bike shop is going to let you ride or borrow a bike long enough, multiple bikes for that matter, to really get a feel for what you like. Do you know a bike shop that will let you get out on several bikes, keep them extended periods to get a feel? I don't..


Most shops will take your drivers license and let you take the bike out for a hour plus if you ask nicely. That'll give you a MUCH better idea of the bike than looking @ the component list online. Heck anything will. 

OP I recommend at least trying out the CAAD9 and a few others in its range, and maybe a few above and below that tickle your interest especially as a new rider. Get a feel for head tube length along with which geometries you agree with before just ploping your money down sight unseen. Minimally I'd probably take a ride on most of the major brands like Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. If you can't feel a difference in any of them, maybe the Neuvation (which I have no opinion of) is right for you. But who knows, maybe during this one bike will stand head and shoulders above another. Just takes a few phones calls and going to try stuff out.


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## gabeg (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks again for all the replys so far; they're much appreciated!

One other question I have is whether an all aluminum frame like the F100 or CAAD9 (with full carbon fork/steerer and seat post) will be too harsh for a beginner doing various types of riding? Should I instead be looking to get lower level components on an all carbon frame?


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bateswil said:


> I bought the Neuvation F100 two months ago for my first bike. I also went with SRAM Rival. With just some quick adjustments guided by some people that knew what they are doing, the bike fits me well and feels great to ride. I would not have any hesitation if I were you about buying online. Neuvation will treat you right.
> 
> *The posts about LBS are well intentioned, but misguided in my opinion. No bike shop is going to let you ride or borrow a bike long enough, multiple bikes for that matter, to really get a feel for what you like. Do you know a bike shop that will let you get out on several bikes, keep them extended periods to get a feel? I don't.*
> 
> ...


A couple of clarifications by this well intentioned, but misguided cyclist of 25 plus years.

IME the purpose of test riding is to get an idea of the fit/ feel, ride and handling of a bike. Again, from my experiences, subtle differences such as placement of shifters, bar shape, saddle (among other variables) _all _play a role in how a bike feels. And since geo dictates handling and to some extent ride, differences between brands/ models can be experienced. It seldom gets us a definitive answer on which is the bike of our dreams (although that does happen), rather, it exposes us to several options to help determine our preferences. 

I find it amusing that the group of people that have this notion that LBS services fall short or have little 'value', use an alternate method of buying that provides_ fewer _of the options/ services that the reputable shops offer. I call that flawed logic, or maybe more accurately a rationalization to go the route that really want to, which is gear first, fit second (and getting fit close is 'good enough').

To the OP: Obviously your call, but I suggest taking the advice I and some others have given you and visit some LBS's and test ride some bikes. You don't _look_ at bikes, you _ride_ them, so in an effort to answer your own question posed:
_One other question I have is whether an all aluminum frame like the F100 or CAAD9 (with full carbon fork/steerer and seat post) will be too harsh for a beginner doing various types of riding? Should I instead be looking to get lower level components on an all carbon frame?_ 

Ride some alu and CF bikes and then you'll have your answer.


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## bateswil (Jan 23, 2010)

My point is, how much really can you know about a bike by borrowing it for an afternoon? In my opinion, and from other folks I've talked to (ncluding folks at LBS), you need to get a lot of miles underneath you on a bike before you know what you like or don't like. Once you know, you go back and make the adjustments you want to suit you.

By all means go try some bikes out. Definately won't hurt anything. But realize, to really get a feel for you what your body needs in a bike will only come with repeated trips and extended miles. Every beginner or intermediate biker I know that has gone through a LBS fitting and set-up eventually makes adjustments to their bike after being on it for awhile. Some adjustments they made are as simple as changing stem size, some went as drastic as changing out of the frame they liked or chose by recommendation of a local bike shop.


You can make these adjustmentsth on a Neuvation. Just get the right frame size under you. Put 500 miles on it, and then fix what ailes you. You would do the same thing with a bike you buy at a local bike shop anyways. But by going with the neuvation, you will save several hundred dollars and get equal quality.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

bateswil said:


> My point is, how much really can you know about a bike by borrowing it for an afternoon? In my opinion, and from other folks I've talked to (ncluding folks at LBS), you need to get a lot of miles underneath you on a bike before you know what you like or don't like. Once you know, you go back and make the adjustments you want to suit you.
> 
> By all means go try some bikes out. Definately won't hurt anything. But realize, to really get a feel for you what your body needs in a bike will only come with repeated trips and extended miles. Every beginner or intermediate biker I know that has gone through a LBS fitting and set-up eventually makes adjustments to their bike after being on it for awhile. Some adjustments they made are as simple as changing stem size, some went as drastic as changing out of the frame they liked or chose by recommendation of a local bike shop.
> 
> ...


There's no question that some of these points are valid. A riders fit and preferences will certainly evolve over time and miles for a variety of reasons, but that fact doesn't negate the need for a noob to work with a reputable LBS and knowledgeable fitter to determine sizing requirements. After which comes a fitting and test rides - valuable services not offered by going the online retailer route. And that_ initial _fit matters. 

You just posted:
_Just get the right frame size under you_ 

And how do you propose a noob determine that? Online fit calculators? If someone is _really_ good at measuring, the recommendations are usually within two frame sizes - IMO rendering them nearly useless. Or, maybe following Neuvations sizing guidelines? No better. 

Remembering this is an aspiring riders first bike, there is no baseline to compare geo to. Once there is, then yes, options expand and someone that knows and understands geo can consider buying online with some assurance of success. Until then, there is no substitute for someone new to the sport to work one on one with a fitter, pin down sizing/ fitting requirements, ride some bikes and decide from there which works best for them. IMO using this process better their odds of getting the right bike_ for them_.


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## Infini (Apr 21, 2003)

PJ352 said:


> And how do you propose a noob determine that? Online fit calculators? If someone is _really_ good at measuring, the recommendations are usually within two frame sizes - IMO rendering them nearly useless. Or, maybe following Neuvations sizing guidelines? No better.


This isn't rocket science. A motivated person can measure themselves, check a number of online fit calculators, and be dead on for the frame size right off the bat. (I did myself, and after looking back a few years later once I have my fit completely dialed in, I see that of the numerous fit calculators I checked, Competitive Cyclist was dead on for me. I believe all but 1 - a "french style fit", got the frame size right) 

When I was first starting and all wet behind the ears, all the salesmen at most of the bike shops I went to did was had me stand over the top tube and said "yeah, that looks good". The experience you get varies greatly depending on which shop and sometimes just which person you talk to. The other end of the scale is a shop I now frequent that will not let ANYONE buy a frame or bike without doing a full scale biodynamic fit. Just assuming that his LBS is the better route is,.. well.. a pretty big assumption.


To answer the OP - no,.. you aren't going to find a better value unless you go used. Competitive cyclist does often have one really nice deal at a time.. Right now they have a BMC Road Racer with Rival for $1,700. I had a '08 BMC Streetfire, which I believe is one level below the Road Racer on their pricing, and that was a very nice frame.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

Infini said:


> This isn't rocket science. A motivated person can measure themselves, check a number of online fit calculators, and be dead on for the frame size right off the bat. (I did myself, and after looking back a few years later once I have my fit completely dialed in, I see that of the numerous fit calculators I checked, Competitive Cyclist was dead on for me. I believe all but 1 - a "french style fit", got the frame size right)
> 
> When I was first starting and all wet behind the ears, all the salesmen at most of the bike shops I went to did was had me stand over the top tube and said "yeah, that looks good". The experience you get varies greatly depending on which shop and sometimes just which person you talk to. The other end of the scale is a shop I now frequent that will not let ANYONE buy a frame or bike without doing a full scale biodynamic fit. *Just assuming that his LBS is the better route is,.. well.. a pretty big assumption*.


I made no such assumptions, thus the use of key words like "reputable" (LBS's) and "knowledgeble" (fitters), but you neglected to post those excerpts. It seems obvious to me that, no matter the product in question, a buyer not patronize a _bad_ retailer and your example of the 'standover' fit method describes one. 

Regarding your success in using online fit calculators, the only comment I can offer is that I'm glad it worked for you, but IME that holds true in the minority of cases. However, as you noted, it didn't work for you 100% either, so had you followed the french style fit, who knows what frame size you'd have to sell because it was ill fitting. 

Also, I find it odd that you mention looking back a few years later (once fit was dialed in) to find CC's recommendations dead on. Normally a riders fit requirements change/ evolve over the years, so for yours to stay static is odd, indeed.

But all that aside and adapting your philosophy, thinking that others experiences will mirror your own is... well... a pretty big assumption.


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## gabeg (Mar 12, 2010)

Again, thanks for the replys; I've already been to a number of LBSs in my area and I've found a DRAMATIC difference in professionalism, knowledge and overall customer service. So, it seems like my best options are either:

A: Find a really great LBS with a knowledgable fitter, then buy from whatever bike brands they happen to carry (and pay a lot more for less bike overall; particularly in components)

or

B: Work with Neuvation to (hopefully) choose the right frame and swap out parts, if needed, to get the right fit over the first few months (and get an amazing deal on a bike with great components, but lose the support of a good LBS)

* there are pros and cons either way


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

gabeg said:


> Again, thanks for the replys; I've already been to a number of LBSs in my area and I've found a DRAMATIC difference in professionalism, knowledge and overall customer service. So, it seems like my best options are either:
> 
> A: Find a really great LBS with a knowledgable fitter, then buy from whatever bike brands they happen to carry (and *pay a lot more for less bike *overall; particularly in components)
> 
> ...


Fundamentally, you're right; there are pros and cons to most anything. But with all due respect, I think you're over emphasizing the perceived negatives associated with going the LBS route and offering a best case scenario going with Neuvation.

For example, are you really paying _a lot more _for a bike going through your LBS? Sizing/ fit concerns aside, considering your Neuvation will need final assembly and tuning, unless you have some experience and are confident in such matters, your LBS will be tapped as a resource, and there will be a charge. From there, ongoing maintenance will be needed, so same deal. If you can manage it and have the necessary tools/ know how, you can go it alone. If not, again the LBS will be tapped. 

Keep in mind that all (and more) of what I've just mentioned is covered by your LBS when purchasing a bike - all costs money and adds to the value of your purchase. No matter how good Neuvations (or similar) customer service is, they can't support these services over email and the net., So either route you choose, I suggest finding a good LBS, because you'll most likely be needing them. If you doubt me, read through some threads here where noobs describe post purchase issues they've had with online bikes.

Don't get me wrong. Generally speaking, online retailers offer good products at good prices, but unfortunately the best candadates for those types of purchases are cyclists knowledgeable both in geo and maintenance. IME, more times than not, noobs are knowledgeable in neither, thus the need for the LBS services.

If you're on the fence about this, here's a thought. Go to that best LBS you mentioned in your last post and tell them you want a standard fitting, are willing to pay a nominal fee but will likely purchase online. Once terms are agreed upon (I'm thinking in the $50-$75 neighborhood) have your fitting, go for a test ride to at least be reasonably sure the fit feels ok - and the longer the ride, the better. If any tweaks are necessary after the fact the fitter should be willing to accomodate you. 

When you are finished, note the make and model of the bike, ask what the stem length/ angle was along with any spacers. No matter where you buy from saddle adjustments will need to be made, so I wouldn't concern myself with that, just getting the frame size and reach requirements piinned down is all that's needed.

At this point you can compare the geo numbers (primarily effective top tube) of the online bikes in question, get a closest match and be reasonably certain you'll be close on sizing. You'll still need the LBS for final assembly/ fit (which I'd mention while there), so this would serve to build a relationship with them _and_ get you some assurance on fit.


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## winmac (Sep 30, 2007)

I read through quite a few of the replies and I thought I would share my $0.02.

I recommend you go with Neuvation based on my experience with quite a few of my LBS.
The LBS most likely will sell you a bike and then tell you to blow off or pay to have changes made. You will NOT be able to change much of anything after the sale, there is a contract you will sign at the time of sale.
About 4-5 years ago, I bought a Trek entry level bike and shortly after I bought it (about 3 rides) I decided that I wanted the disc brake version.
The LBS answer was "Umm, NO".
Had they said yes I would have spent a minimum of $100 to switch to the disc brake version.
I strongly encourage you to go with the Neuvation F100 Rival... I am seriously thinking of picking up that exact bike soon myself.
I do NOT (experience talking here) recommend BikesDirect at all. Unlike Neuvation, there will be NO_ONE to call if a problem ever shows up at your door. Having used caps on the word no several times I still must say their bikes do look tempting but I want the Neuvation because when or if I ever call for help, they will answer.


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## winmac (Sep 30, 2007)

Another thought based on the reply to this message by PJ352 which suggests you go to a LBS for a fitting.
You can go online to CompetitiveCyclist.com and they have a fit calculator you can use to get a pretty good fit (with the help of a friend) and then email that fit to Neuvation.

Link to CompetitiveCyclist.com fit calculator is below.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCM?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO&SITE.CODE=MTB


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## Luis50 (Jul 29, 2008)

Go to as many shops as possible and ride the bikes in your price range. Make notes of the people working in the shops. Zero in on the shops with the most riding/racing experienced people working in it...prefferably someone that's been successfully fitting, selling and riding road bikes for many years. If you determine that this is someone that knows their $hit based on those experiences and treats you right, you have found your LBS. Have them do a complete fit. Narrow your choice down to a bike and go for a ride with that person. This will let them see you in action. Adjust fitting related parts as needed. Ride, ride, ride and ride some more. Come back and adjust fitting related parts as needed. Done.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

I'm with PJ352 on these threads. Yes, road bikes are expensive, and it's very appealing to get stuff online. However, unless you plan on doing all of your wrenching yourself, support the LBS so they can support you. I've talked to a few guys who live in areas where their local shop went under and things are now very challenging. 

Keep in mind that Neuvation knows their product inside and out, but YOU don't. Neuvation also doesn't know what will fit you. If you knew your fit and how to sized based on their frame geometry, then this would be a good deal. Without understanding this, not a very good deal. 

Just because you fit on a 55cm Trek doesn't necessarily mean you'd fit on a 55cm Neuvation. Different brands vary in details. Sometimes, within the same brand, certain frame types will vary. 

Do what you want, but I'd never recommend buying a first roadie online.


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## winmac (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree, whenever you have the urge to go ride a bike, go test ride a bike.
I was reading in a bike mag recently and the #1 thing to do when looking to buy a new bike was to NOT buy a new bike... instead, test new bikes.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

winmac said:


> I agree, whenever you have the urge to go ride a bike, go test ride a bike.
> I was reading in a bike mag recently and the #1 thing to do when looking to buy a new bike was to NOT buy a new bike... instead, test new bikes.


So essentially that mag is promoting_ using _the LBS's inventory to test ride bikes, then go elsewhere to buy. Pray tell, which rag is this, so I'll remember not to buy it.

Ironically, you're the one posting that your LBS won't work with you on swapping out parts. I can't imagine why.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

bateswil said:


> I bought the Neuvation F100 two months ago for my first bike. I also went with SRAM Rival. With just some quick adjustments guided by some people that knew what they are doing, the bike fits me well and feels great to ride. I would not have any hesitation if I were you about buying online. Neuvation will treat you right.
> 
> The posts about LBS are well intentioned, but misguided in my opinion. No bike shop is going to let you ride or borrow a bike long enough, multiple bikes for that matter, to really get a feel for what you like. Do you know a bike shop that will let you get out on several bikes, keep them extended periods to get a feel? I don't.
> 
> ...


No computer screen is going to let you ride a bike long enough. What a crazy post. You're happy with your neuvation thus it's a universal truth that everyone should do what you do. Great.
A brief test drive is certainly better than looking at a computer screen. That weeds out the obvious issues if there are any. 
I'm not even weighing in on on-line vs LBS here.....I'm not against on-line buying for the person willing to do some learning before doing so.....it's just that your argument against going to a shop is......well, not existant.


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## hrumpole (Jun 17, 2008)

The paradox is that the online retailers are really best for the opposite kind of consumer to whom they appeal. If you know what you're doing, it's a lot of bang for the buck. If you're wrong, then it's an expensive mistake to fix. Plus, if you throw in the cost of getting the DRs and brakes adjusted, plus a fitting, plus no free adjustments for any period, then the two price points are much more competitive.

In short, as a newbie, I'd stay away from the net retailer. You're better off finding a bike shop you trust.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

hrumpole said:


> The paradox is that the online retailers are really best for the opposite kind of consumer to whom they appeal. If you know what you're doing, it's a lot of bang for the buck. If you're wrong, then it's an expensive mistake to fix. Plus, if you throw in the cost of getting the DRs and brakes adjusted, plus a fitting, plus no free adjustments for any period, then the two price points are much more competitive.
> 
> In short, as a newbie, I'd stay away from the net retailer. You're better off finding a bike shop you trust.



Here is the real paradox - many forum members seem to think that if someone is a cycling 'newbie' that they are not smart. I find many new cyclists are very smart and even smarter than some guys in bike shops [including me]

We sell thousands of bikes to so called 'newbies' and about 99.9% are really happy and enjoy their bikes for years or decades. In fact, I would say satisfaction of online bike buyers beats in shop buyers overall.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> Here is the real paradox - many forum members seem to think that if someone is a cycling 'newbie' that they are not smart. I find many new cyclists are very smart and even smarter than some guys in bike shops [including me]
> 
> We sell thousands of bikes to so called 'newbies' and about 99.9% are really happy and enjoy their bikes for years or decades. In fact, I would say satisfaction of online bike buyers beats in shop buyers overall.


Happy, but compared to what? If you've never ridden a properly sized and fitted bike, of course you don't know what you're missing. I highly doubt newbies know more than experienced cyclists. Reading something on the internet vs. thousands of miles under their belt are two different things. 

I don't dislike online retailers, but I think people look at the price of the bike, honestly don't know their size, and don't account for extra $ they may need to spend. To be quite honest, I think my shop has cut me enough deals that I'd probably break even if I had purchased online...barring ordering the wrong size.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> Here is the real paradox - many forum members seem to think that if someone is a cycling 'newbie' that they are not smart. I find many new cyclists are very smart and even smarter than some guys in bike shops [including me]
> 
> We sell thousands of bikes to so called 'newbies' and about 99.9% are really happy and enjoy their bikes for years or decades. In fact, I would say satisfaction of online bike buyers beats in shop buyers overall.


That's a complete Red Herring saying forum members think newbies are not smart. 


Anyway, I doubt anyone is speculating on the intelligence of an anonymous stranger over the internet (as you, ironically, are doing). What they do realize is that some things can only be learned though experience. Physical experience.

"In fact, I would say satisfaction of online bike buyers beats in shop buyers overall"

Now you've entered the realm of complete BS I am guessing. You may be right though. Feel free to show the survey or other information you're basing that comment on.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Hank Stamper said:


> That's a complete Red Herring saying forum members think newbies are not smart.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I doubt anyone is speculating on the intelligence of an anonymous stranger over the internet (as you, ironically, are doing). What they do realize is that some things can only be learned though experience. Physical experience.
> ...



You are correct I have not done a formal research project on it - but I have sold hundreds of thousands of bikes over the last 30 years; most in shops; but lots and lots online. I can say that the responses we hear from online buyers in general tops what we hear from buyers in shops [ours and competitors].

It maybe an expectation thing; people who buy online may expect less and when they get more than they thought they would are happier. But whatever the reason is; online bike buyers are very happy in general. Newbies and experienced cyclists alike; buyers tend to be excited by their online bike purchases [from us and from other online sellers]. Just my observation.


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## hrumpole (Jun 17, 2008)

bikesdirect said:


> Here is the real paradox - many forum members seem to think that if someone is a cycling 'newbie' that they are not smart. I find many new cyclists are very smart and even smarter than some guys in bike shops [including me]
> 
> We sell thousands of bikes to so called 'newbies' and about 99.9% are really happy and enjoy their bikes for years or decades. In fact, I would say satisfaction of online bike buyers beats in shop buyers overall.


Yikes what a strawman. No one is calling anyone "dumb". Those who don't know about a given subject or lack experience in that subject are more likely to make mistakes in that subject despite efforts to educate themselves. I include myself in that number, as the bike I bought from you guys simply did not fit. That was, admittedly, my mistake and one I attribute (a) to my own lack of experience at the time and (b) to the tenor of bikesdirect marketing. But mainly (a). Caveat emptor. 

I also think that part of that decision was because I simply didn't know what I was missing. There is no substitute for having a bike properly fitted and dialed in. It doesn't have to be a 300 buck 3D fit with sensors and video to make it work. But it makes a huge difference, and a novice is really not likely to get that right. And someone who rides once every couple of weeks or so for a half-hour will not notice. Someone who rides every week (or every day) surely will. 

Despite my experience, I've got no problem with bd (a position that perhaps warrants reconsideration given statements like the above) or any other internet retailer.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

bikesdirect said:


> You are correct I have not done a formal research project on it - but I have sold hundreds of thousands of bikes over the last 30 years;


So has Wal-Mart. Just sayin'.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

hrumpole said:


> Yikes what a strawman. *No one is calling anyone "dumb". Those who don't know about a given subject or lack experience in that subject are more likely to make mistakes* in that subject despite efforts to educate themselves. I include myself in that number, as the bike I bought from you guys simply did not fit. That was, admittedly, my mistake and one I attribute (a) to my own lack of experience at the time and (b) to the tenor of bikesdirect marketing. But mainly (a). Caveat emptor.
> 
> I also think that part of that decision was because I simply didn't know what I was missing. There is no substitute for having a bike properly fitted and dialed in. It doesn't have to be a 300 buck 3D fit with sensors and video to make it work. But it makes a huge difference, and a novice is really not likely to get that right. And someone who rides once every couple of weeks or so for a half-hour will not notice. Someone who rides every week (or every day) surely will.
> 
> Despite my experience, I've got no problem with bd (a position that perhaps warrants reconsideration given statements like the above) or any other internet retailer.


IMO this post is golden. There's just no substitute for a buyer relaying their experiences to prospectives.

Concidentally I was perusing my local CL ads and came across this:
_I am selling a 2008 Motobecane Grand Record Road Bike, size is 52cm. It will come with clipless SPD pedals (2 bolt style). Great bike for beginner riders,* I love the bike and I am only selling because it is too small for me.* It is white with red and black lettering just like the photo in the link below. Price is $400 - cash only. Please e-mail me with any questions. _

Apparently (as Mike states) there are lots of happy BD owners out there. The minor detail being many either don't ride the bikes or sell them because they simply don't fit. Ironically, people opt for the BD bikes because of perceived value, which begs the question..... where's the value in buying an ill fitting bike??


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Apparently (as Mike states) there are lots of happy BD owners out there. The minor detail being many either don't ride the bikes or sell them because they simply don't fit. Ironically, people opt for the BD bikes because of perceived value, which begs the question..... where's the value in buying an ill fitting bike??


If ya don't ride it, no problem.  We have a LBS in town that basically specializes in selling bikes to people that might ride 'em once or twice and are notorious for selling people the wrong size. Nonetheless, other shops tend to do a much better job.

I've also known several riders who are/were riding the wrong size. No matter what you spend or don't spend, it's not a good value.


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## gabeg (Mar 12, 2010)

Alright...well, it looks like I've created a nice debate with my innocent little newbie post . I've read each reply, as well as continued searching other threads on this very issue. Buying online vs an LBS is a debate today and most likely forevermore, but I really appreciate and respect everyone's thoughts. In fact, every reply has helped me think and given me direction.

I've decided to start out buying my first road bike with a full professional fitting at a great LBS before I decide which bike to buy (the fitter has been at it for nearly 20 years and has fit some big name professional riders).

Then (with MY fit specs in hand) I'll test ride locally while continuing to research online...then decide what and where to buy. This process may still take some time, but I'll keep you posted on my progress. Thanks again everyone!!


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> .. where's the value in buying an ill fitting bike??


thats a huge value.. you now what what doesnt fit! 

i got a windsor.. didnt fit, sold it for 10 bucks less than i bought it.. put a couple hundred miles on it though. 10 bucks to get a really good standpoint of what i need in a bike.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

gabeg said:


> Alright...well, it looks like I've created a nice debate with my innocent little newbie post .


It was not you. Mike was trying to remind to the world that BD exists. 

The best value right now is BMC Team Machine/SRAM Force complete bike at competitive cyclist at 2300. 

Their other deal, BMC Road Racer/SRAM Rival/Easton wheels and parts is a complete bike at 1700. It is a much better value than Neuvation or likely anything you may get locally at the same price. And BMC is much cooler and a better engineered bike. Unlike BD bikes, wheels and other parts on BMC are functional. 

However, Road Racer is an aluminum frame with carbon stays. I'd rather prefer a full carbon frame.

To find out your bike size, use a calculator at competitive cyclist. It gives pretty good fit recommendations. Top tube is the most important number. Make sure that head tube is not too long or too short. 

Other option is to buy a frame and parts from ebay, a group from a british online store, and ask a local LBS (if there is one that is good and that you trust to) to build the bike.

If you're dead set on aluminum frame (which I'd rather avoid), have a look at gvhbikes.com. Or ask them to give you a quote for complete kit of your liking without a frame.


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## sokudo (Dec 22, 2007)

spade2you said:


> If ya don't ride it, no problem.  We have a LBS in town that basically specializes in selling bikes to people that might ride 'em once or twice and are notorious for selling people the wrong size.


It's the other way around: LBS sells the wrong size and as a result people do not ride their bikes.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

gabeg said:


> Alright...well, it looks like I've created a nice debate with my innocent little newbie post . I've read each reply, as well as continued searching other threads on this very issue. Buying online vs an LBS is a debate today and most likely forevermore, but I really appreciate and respect everyone's thoughts. In fact, every reply has helped me think and given me direction.
> 
> I've decided to start out buying my first road bike with a full professional fitting at a great LBS before I decide which bike to buy (the fitter has been at it for nearly 20 years and has fit some big name professional riders).
> 
> Then (with MY fit specs in hand) I'll test ride locally while continuing to research online...then decide what and where to buy. This process may still take some time, but I'll keep you posted on my progress. Thanks again everyone!!


I think you've formulated a great plan. With sizing requirements pinned down (and probably even fit, to some extent) you can concentrate on bikes with geo that will work best for you. You may have already discussed this with your fitter, but I would include them in this process as well because they may offer some useful advice on your final choice(s). And after you get your bike, you'll want them involved in the fitting.

Pls keep us updated - and have no fear, you didn't _create_ any debate. The LBS versus online debate has been brewing here for some time now. And as you say, will likely continue.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

TomH said:


> thats a huge value.. you now what what doesnt fit!
> 
> i got a windsor.. didnt fit, sold it for 10 bucks less than i bought it.. put a couple hundred miles on it though. 10 bucks to get a really good standpoint of what i need in a bike.


IMO the only point made here is that two uneducated buyers met up (one in bike sizing, the other in used bike prices) and you got lucky.

EDIT: But thank you for posting what clearly depicts the pitfalls of buying online. :thumbsup:


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

sokudo said:


> It's the other way around: LBS sells the wrong size and as a result people do not ride their bikes.


Yes and no. The people who tend to shop there are the types that have a bike and might even put it in the garage (as opposed to leaving it on the deck), but that particular customer base does not consist of people who ride more than a couple miles a couple times a year. Ask any novice who they've heard of and they'll nominate this shop as the best in town. Ask a racer or serious rider and this shop will be at the bottom of the list. 

Oddly enough, this shop offers lifetime adjustments and are doing quite well, especially since they know that they aren't going to need to honor this warranty due to lack of use. 

I'm not commenting for the entire US, just my area.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

PJ352 said:


> IMO the only point made here is that two uneducated buyers met up (one in bike sizing, the other in used bike prices) and you got lucky.
> 
> EDIT: But thank you for posting what clearly depicts the pitfalls of buying online. :thumbsup:


the guy who bought it got a new sora/tiagra bike for 340 bucks with rebuilt tensioned up wheels. i got a free lesson in sizing. whats the pitfall? everyone involved in that won. 

after that, the lbs tried to sell me multiple bikes that fit worse.. for nearly $1000 with the same sora/tiagra. id rather buy a bike that doesnt fit online for 1/3rd than buy a bike at the lbs that doesnt fit for an inflated price.. 

you just have to be an educated buyer. most lbs's just dont care, especially when you're looking at entry bikes to get into the sport. we'd all like to imagine this sparking lbs with thoughful employees who will spend 2 hours fitting you to your perfect dream bike for a unheard of price.. but the reality is that overwhelmingly doesnt happen. 

neuvation does the best they possibly can to fit you to a bike. a lot more than a bike shop will without paying for a fit.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

TomH said:


> the guy who bought it got a new sora/tiagra bike for 340 bucks with rebuilt tensioned up wheels. i got a free lesson in sizing. whats the pitfall? everyone involved in that won.
> 
> after that, the lbs tried to sell me multiple bikes that fit worse.. for nearly $1000 with the same sora/tiagra. id rather buy a bike that doesnt fit online for 1/3rd than buy a bike at the lbs that doesnt fit for an inflated price..
> 
> ...


Although you are obviously biased in your opinions re: LBS's, some of what you say is absolutely true. I'm happy for you that you didn't take a financial hit in the process, but you are definitely in the minority on that. Most uneducated buyers end up 'storing' their ill fitting bike or selling them at a substantial loss. Scan your CL (or similar ads) if you doubt this. 

Yes, there are substandard LBS's, but with a modicum of knowledge they can (and should) be avoided. But there are substandard online retailers as well, so going into this purchase knowing what to look for (and look out for) is _always_ a good thing. 

You can argue it, but fact is no matter how good online retailers are, they can't match the services a reputable LBS provides, it's physically impossible to do so (and the bolded statement reflects this) - and noobs more than most _need_ those services. So IMO when you compare reputable LBS's to the bike in a box online retailers, it's obvious where the real value lies.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

PJ352 said:


> Yes, there are substandard LBS's, but with a modicum of knowledge they can (and should) be avoided. But there are substandard online retailers as well, so going into this purchase knowing what to look for (and look out for) is _always_ a good thing.
> 
> You can argue it, but fact is no matter how good online retailers are, they can't match the services a reputable LBS provides, it's physically impossible to do so (and the bolded statement reflects this) - and noobs more than most _need_ those services. So IMO when you compare reputable LBS's to the bike in a box online retailers, it's obvious where the real value lies.


+1. Not all shops are created equal. Most shops that cater to serious riders or racers are usually pretty good about making sure the sizing is correct. Yes, there are mistakes sometimes. Most shops are well aware that if they sell the wrong size to someone, they'll most likely get their next bike from their competition. Ask around. Like I said earlier, all the noobs go to one shop. Experienced riders tend not top shop there. 

Neuvation makes good stuff, but a rookie who doesn't understand sizing and/or geometry is taking as much of a gamble as shopping at a sub-par LBS. If/when you understand frame sizing, online retailers are a decent value. 

I'm certainly not against online shopping, but if you don't support your LBS, they can't support you. I may have already said that in this thread, but unless you're a master mechanic, there's usually a good chance you'll need them to do or fix something beyond your ability. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but the loyalty between my shop and me has resulted in a lot of freebies for repairs and adjustments. When I look at the amount of discounts and assistance, it's about even with online retailers in the long run. Bring in a Neuvation, something from an online purchase, or their competitor and I don't think that discount applies. 

I think too many new riders (and some experienced cheap skates) tend to look at the up front values too much and negate the overall long haul values.


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## tuccillo (Feb 22, 2010)

A couple of question, if you please.

When you discuss a "bike not fitting", are you referring to the wrong size of a particular frame or that fact that some frames, regardless of size, aren't going to be comfortable? Or both? I ask this because it seems hard to believe that someone could be off by more than one size and it seems like typical size differences are 2-3 cms (about an inch). I could see if you had a frame that was off by 3" then you could have some issues but 1" is not much.I am considering mail ordering a new road bike and may be between sizes (48 or 51 cms). Is the typical wisdom to go up when in doubt? I have been riding for a long time on a frame that is clearly too large (based on todays thinking and fit calculators). I do not find it uncomfortable but I mostly do 45-50 minute rides. Any thought would be much appreciated. Thanks. 






PJ352 said:


> IMO the only point made here is that two uneducated buyers met up (one in bike sizing, the other in used bike prices) and you got lucky.
> 
> EDIT: But thank you for posting what clearly depicts the pitfalls of buying online. :thumbsup:


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

tuccillo said:


> A couple of question, if you please.
> 
> When you discuss a "bike not fitting", are you referring to the wrong size of a particular frame or that fact that some frames, regardless of size, aren't going to be comfortable? Or both? I ask this because it seems hard to believe that someone could be off by more than one size and it seems like typical size differences are 2-3 cms (about an inch). I could see if you had a frame that was off by 3" then you could have some issues but 1" is not much.I am considering mail ordering a new road bike and may be between sizes (48 or 51 cms). Is the typical wisdom to go up when in doubt? I have been riding for a long time on a frame that is clearly too large (based on todays thinking and fit calculators). I do not find it uncomfortable but I mostly do 45-50 minute rides. Any thought would be much appreciated. Thanks.


Comfort is one thing. I could jerryrig comfort on just about any frame. From what you posted you seem to be missing that weight distribution effects handling/performance of the bike. And 1 inch does make a difference.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

tuccillo said:


> A couple of question, if you please.
> 
> When you discuss a "bike not fitting", are you referring to the wrong size of a particular frame or that fact that some frames, regardless of size, aren't going to be comfortable? Or both? I ask this because it seems hard to believe that someone could be off by more than one size and it seems like typical size differences are 2-3 cms (about an inch). I could see if you had a frame that was off by 3" then you could have some issues but 1" is not much.I am considering mail ordering a new road bike and may be between sizes (48 or 51 cms). Is the typical wisdom to go up when in doubt? I have been riding for a long time on a frame that is clearly too large (based on todays thinking and fit calculators). I do not find it uncomfortable but I mostly do 45-50 minute rides. Any thought would be much appreciated. Thanks.


I agree with what Hank said. It's quite possible to change the stem or seat post to a certain extent, but only to a certain extent. You might need a new stem, shorter/longer crank arms, etc. 

45-50 minute rides are one thing, but when you start doing 2-3 hour rides or the occasional century, it's a huge deal. Moreover, size and fit become critical to the performance of you and the bike. Improper fit simply leads to a lot of wasted effort and energy. I'm a racer, so this is a big deal to me. It may not seem like a terribly big deal to a recreational rider, but most guys who log a lot of distance don't necessarily want to work much harder and take that much longer on a given ride.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

tuccillo said:


> A couple of question, if you please.
> 
> When you discuss a "bike not fitting", are you referring to the wrong size of a particular frame or that fact that some frames, regardless of size, aren't going to be comfortable? Or both? I ask this because it seems hard to believe that someone could be off by more than one size and it seems like typical size differences are 2-3 cms (about an inch). I could see if you had a frame that was off by 3" then you could have some issues but 1" is not much.I am considering mail ordering a new road bike and may be between sizes (48 or 51 cms). Is the typical wisdom to go up when in doubt? I have been riding for a long time on a frame that is clearly too large (based on todays thinking and fit calculators). I do not find it uncomfortable but I mostly do 45-50 minute rides. Any thought would be much appreciated. Thanks.


In discussions regarding sizing and fit, _everything_ from the riders experience, preferences, anatomy and the bikes geo (among other factors) _all_ matter. So saying you can size up/ down "an inch" and still get a decent fit is, at best, oversimplifying because an inch difference in effective top tube length, for example, is huge. And as Hank mentioned (paraphrasing), can adversely affect f/r weight distribution, thus handliing. 

All of this, of course assumes the goal of optimal fit as opposed to 'good enough', because the longer you ride, the less 'good enough' that fit will become.

If you're contemplating an online purchase and don't yet know your sizing requirements, I strongly suggest seeking out a reputable LBS, discussing the situation with them and the cost of a standard fitting. It may run $50 - $75, but will likely prevent you from ordering the wrong sized bike and having to pay return shipping - or settle for that 'good enough' fit it will offer.

Once you have the fitting, note the geo of the test bike, stem length/ angle and if possible, ask for any documented measurements taken. This information will allow you to directly compare the geo and your fit requirements with the online bike(s) of interest. 

One last note. IMO/E the online fit calculators that many speak of have a number of pitfalls if someone isn't_ very _careful with measurements. Even then, _at best _they'll recommend a range that might suite you, but you're apt to still need assistance in deciphering how that range equates to a bikes geometry. For these reasons (and others), I suggest the LBS fitter route. Just make sure to find an experienced one.

Or better yet, purchase from a reputable shop and leave the sizing/ fit worries to them.


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## BryanSayer (Sep 22, 2009)

An alternative fitting is the Bill Boston AccuFit,

http://www.billbostoncycles.com/prod personal accufit.htm

About $30. I'm about to have a frame built based in part of this fit, but the frame builder will also be evaluating me.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

BryanSayer said:


> An alternative fitting is the Bill Boston AccuFit,
> 
> http://www.billbostoncycles.com/prod personal accufit.htm
> 
> About $30. I'm about to have a frame built based in part of this fit, but the frame builder will also be evaluating me.


That's just an alternative to other online fit calculators, and IMO not a reliable method for determining fit for a noobs first road bike.

In your situation (already own a bike/ already have a ballpark idea on sizing/ fit requirements and working with a builder), I'm sure it'll do you fine.


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## zeesix (Mar 26, 2010)

I'd be interest in hearing an update from the OP, as i'm in the same boat. I was looking at the CAAD9 5 / 4s and then came across these Neuvation bikes. I haven't completely made up my mind at this point. I can get the CAAD9 4 with an amazing warranty, but it would cost me $300 more than what a full-carbon neuvation bike would cost (same components).

I'm not too concerned about the fit, more so the warranty in my case. I'm fully confident that with online calculators, combined with test-riding some bikes, I get the fit down. I'd feel more confident than solely relying on a sales person, given my experience in visiting 5-6 LBS in the Boston, MA area. Some of you must be really lucky and have a good LBS, but my experience has been very negative.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zeesix said:


> I'd be interest in hearing an update from the OP, as i'm in the same boat. I was looking at the CAAD9 5 / 4s and then came across these Neuvation bikes. I haven't completely made up my mind at this point. I can get the CAAD9 4 with an amazing warranty, but it would cost me $300 more than what a full-carbon neuvation bike would cost (same components).
> 
> *I'm not too concerned about the fit, more so the warranty in my case. I'm fully confident that with online calculators,* combined with test-riding some bikes, I get the fit down. I'd feel more confident than solely relying on a sales person, given my experience in visiting 5-6 LBS in the Boston, MA area. Some of you must be really lucky and have a good LBS, but my experience has been very negative.


Just because you've visited sub par LBS's, complained about the experience and used their inventory to "get fit down", doesn't make online fit calculators more reliable or a better alternative. IME, they're not. 

You don't offer your cycling background, but getting sizing down on one brand/ model doesn't mean it'll hold true for another. And online calculators (at best) get you in a range and require you to at least understand bike geo and what effects changes to fit/ weight distribution can have on handling.

An ill fitting bike most likely won't get ridden much, in which case a warranty is moot.


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## zeesix (Mar 26, 2010)

PJ352 said:


> Just because you've visited sub par LBS's, complained about the experience and used their inventory to "get fit down", doesn't make online fit calculators more reliable or a better alternative. IME, they're not.
> 
> You don't offer your cycling background, but getting sizing down on one brand/ model doesn't mean it'll hold true for another. And online calculators (at best) get you in a range and require you to at least understand bike geo and what effects changes to fit/ weight distribution can have on handling.
> 
> An ill fitting bike most likely won't get ridden much, in which case a warranty is moot.


Like I said, I live in a major city. I went to every LBS that is within reach by public transportation. I'm not disagreeing with you that a _good_ LBS is superior to an online calculator, but some people, like myself, aren't fortunate enough, like you, to have such a LBS nearby. What do you suggest someone does in this situation, where a 'reputable' LBS is not nearby?

As for me, i'm like the OP. I'm getting into cycling, and want to spend around 1500-1700 max. I'm aiming for 105s/rivals, and was initially just considering alu frames, as that is within that price range. Many places say that Cannondale makes superior alu frames, so that's why I focused on the CAADs... until I stumbled upon the Neuvation which I could afford in full carbon. 

What I have done is go to these different LBS's and see what each one said my size was. Most put me at 54, one at 53, but I never felt confident enough that they really knew what they were doing, combined with the fact that when I was focused on the CAADs, the 54 frame was the only one they had available (i.e. they could just say I'm a 54 because they want to sell me a bike). Another problem I've discovered was that all the LBSs only carried 2 brands, making it more difficult to compare bikes (like CAAD vs trek 2.1s etc.). Yes, you can go to different dealers that carry the brand you want, but it would be better to test them one after another to accurately identify a difference (as someone very new to road cycling, I found it very difficult to tell a difference between the bikes, maybe if I could test them one after the other I would find differences).


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey, PJ352...where'd Mike go???


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

zeesix said:


> Like I said, I live in a major city. I went to every LBS that is within reach by public transportation. I'm not disagreeing with you that a _good_ LBS is superior to an online calculator, but some people, like myself, aren't fortunate enough, like you, to have such a LBS nearby. What do you suggest someone does in this situation, where a 'reputable' LBS is not nearby?
> 
> As for me, i'm like the OP. I'm getting into cycling, and want to spend around 1500-1700 max. I'm aiming for 105s/rivals, and was initially just considering alu frames, as that is within that price range. Many places say that Cannondale makes superior alu frames, so that's why I focused on the CAADs... until I stumbled upon the Neuvation which I could afford in full carbon.
> 
> What I have done is go to these different LBS's and see what each one said my size was. Most put me at 54, one at 53, but I never felt confident enough that they really knew what they were doing, combined with the fact that when I was focused on the CAADs, the 54 frame was the only one they had available (i.e. they could just say I'm a 54 because they want to sell me a bike). Another problem I've discovered was that all the LBSs only carried 2 brands, making it more difficult to compare bikes (like CAAD vs trek 2.1s etc.). Yes, you can go to different dealers that carry the brand you want, but it would be better to test them one after another to accurately identify a difference (as someone very new to road cycling, I found it very difficult to tell a difference between the bikes, maybe if I could test them one after the other I would find differences).


Your initial post here mentioned Boston MA. If that's your location, I know there are members that have offered opinions on LBS's in that area, so consider starting a thread here and see what feedback you get. FWIW many of us have had similar negative experiences with the lesser shops, so you learn to avoid them and seek out the shops that instill confidence. In the end it's worth the effort, because you're more likely to end up on a well fitting bike - and that's essential in keeping you riding. 

As far as wanting the bikes of interest under one roof and readily available, well... we all do, but that's not usually how things go. At least not IME. In one day I drove 5 hrs round trip to test ride two bikes (two different LBS's). I'm not saying you should do the same, rather I'm offering it as an example of having to put some effort into getting what's important to you. 

You're right that memories fade fairly quickly when test riding bikes, so if possible, it's best to group test rides close together.


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