# Tire "grip"



## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

Everytime i read a tire review, people talk about a tire's "grip" level. I'm sure compound, construction, and tread design make a big difference in the grip and feel of a tire--but my question is, can we (as in, amateur/recreational/non-pro riders) REALLY tell the difference?

for instance, someone complains that the new iteration of tire X has "less grip" than the previous one...how does one come to that conclusion? datalogging? the "butt dyno" effect? take corner at a given speed an eat sh*t because of new tire iteration?

when comparing tires on a car or a motorcycle, there's a certain amount of slip detectable mid-corner, under braking, etc that one can use to unscientifically judge grip levels. or even use split times/lap times on a circuit (i guess that's possible on a bicycle, too)--but when i think about cornering at the limit on a bicycle tire, and overstepping the limit of traction with a bicycle tire, i don't think there's going to be any way to "save" it (though now is the time to share cool stories about "saving it") so an apples to apples comparison of tire a to tire b for ultimate grip levels before failure is going to mean that a bicyclist is going to get a little bloody...

I can understand how a tire can feel different. but i'm not necessarily buying the grip arguments. maybe in the wet, where it's easy to spin up the rear wheel on wet pavement with a crappy rear tire...


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Losing their grip*



charlox5 said:


> Everytime i read a tire review, people talk about a tire's "grip" level. I'm sure compound, construction, and tread design make a big difference in the grip and feel of a tire--but my question is, can we (as in, amateur/recreational/non-pro riders) REALLY tell the difference?
> 
> for instance, someone complains that the new iteration of tire X has "less grip" than the previous one...how does one come to that conclusion? datalogging? the "butt dyno" effect? take corner at a given speed an eat sh*t because of new tire iteration?
> 
> ...


I've asked the same question, from the same perspective, and never get a satisfactory answer. I remember somebody getting a new set of tires many years ago and they fell going around a corner at "normal speed." That guy tested the grip of the tires - it was a combination of hard tread rubber and the tires still being coated with mold-release agent. The tires got better after a little use.

Otherwise, when people talk about XYZ tire being "grippy" they are basically translating some sort of feeling into an unsupportable claim. Just as you say, unless they are cornering at controlled speeds and controlled conditions and falling down or at least breaking traction, their perceptions are meaningless.

BTW, if by "tread design" you mean the pattern in the rubber, the only way this would have an effect would be to give worse grip in corners compared to a slick. Tread pattern means nothing on road tires unless the tire is able to deform the surface on which it is travelling, and that only happens when it gets so hot that the tar softens.


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## m_s (Nov 20, 2007)

Tread doesn't matter on road bikes, Tire pressure, rubber compound, and sidewall/casing flex all matter


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## Waxbytes (Sep 22, 2004)

The only way you can test "grip" that I know of is by hard braking.


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## SOME_1_ELSE_1999 (Apr 22, 2011)

Waxbytes said:


> The only way you can test "grip" that I know of is by hard braking.



under hard braking its almost always had the same effect IME....

1 rear tire locks up 
2 front tire locks up and i go over the handle bars and face plant to the street

neither have told me about how great the tire 
"grip" is however it has told me whether or not the brake pads need replacing/how well they are adjusted


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## rward325 (Sep 22, 2008)

Interesting and intriguing question. I only know how a tire feels under me(Butt Dyno). Some just do not inspire confidence by how often they flat or feel when cornering. Most of it I am sure is in my head! I ride Continental Force/Attack on HED Ardennes wheels. I will say that when I changed form a standard width wheel to the wider C2 rims of HED it made a huge difference in how my bike handled. Changing from the standard 23c tire to the Force/Attack combo was also interesting, Again this is all subjective but I have heard the same comments from others that have used this particular product. It is really up to each individual to see what inspires confidence when riding on them. After the events in the Pro Peleton this week I don't see myself going out and test this grip of my tires on 50mph downhil and leaning hard in to a turn.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

I have to assume, that by grip, people are referring to how confident they feel in cornering on a particular tire. Some tires seem to instill more confidence in me than others. Harder compounds don't seem to do it for me, nor do really thin sidewalls. I had a pair of Schwalbe ultremo R tires. They were so light and the sidewalls were so thin that the front didn't instill any confidence in me, especially on curvy descents. I didn't feel they had good directional stability. It made for a great, very comfortable rear tire, but the mileage was very short before it needed to be replaced.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

charlox5 said:


> can we (as in, amateur/recreational/non-pro riders) REALLY tell the difference?


I'm with ya 100% I think people like to think they can tell... so they can talk about it when someone asks "How do you like those tires?" I've riden/raced mountain bikes since the late '80s. I can tell you it's hard to tell the difference with those tires - the tires have to be significantly different than what you just rode, and you have to pay attention. It is MUCH easier to feel the difference in a wheel than with a tire. On the road bikes, I can't feel any difference - unless I'm 20 psi down. 

Rider capability - just like in a car - is the overwhelming factor. How one turns and brakes has much more to do with how fast the bike turns and brakes. As a long-time mountain biker, I can probably stop a road bike faster than most guys - ass over rear tire, chest on seat, modulate both brakes... but a pro can cut that distance in half... on cheap tires.


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## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I think in road biking when people switch from old worn out tires to new tires they always proclaim the newer tire to be "better" hehe. You'd have to really hit the extremes, i.e. buy a super hard cheap tire and a super expensive supple tire to probably be able to discern a difference. 
In mountain biking a tire swap is more noticeable, due to tread pattern and trail surface. It's easier to tell if you have grip then, you either wash out or you don't, a good tire gives you some predictability before that happens.
On a track motocycle you can really tell the difference, some tires slide more predictably than others, some give warning while others don't.


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## tbyrne (Dec 29, 2004)

Sure you can tell - crash on a pair of tires and you'll pronounce them "less grippy". I had a low speed crash on brand new Michelin ProRace 3 tires when I made a 5 mph, but sharp, turn on some crushed acorn husks at the end of my driveway. Those babies, hard as rocks and with hard-to-remove mold release agent, slid right out from under me. My re-installed, worn Vittoria Rubino Pro Slicks had much better grip.:wink5:


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## Fordy (Feb 3, 2004)

*I was taken in*

Spent $65.00 a piece on some high end "grippy" racing tires (shop recommended). Sure they handled a little better in my estimation, but, they were shredded in two weeks of normal riding. So, back to my tried and trues which are still a high end tire with a little harder compound at about $50.00 a pop...stick with what works for you....


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

It seems like there would be a way to objectively test traction. There are tests for rolling resistance of various tire brands, sizes, and pressures. Why not traction? Maybe a test for tires on a drum with a surface approximating asphalt road surface would work. Apply a given weight to the tire and test positive and negative acceleration under repeatable conditions. As in other tests, use different brands, models, widths, and inflation pressures. This could also be done under wet and dry conditions.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

You use crash test dummies


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## ColoRoadie (Aug 5, 2010)

Chainstay said:


> You use crash test dummies


I resemble that remark.


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*Depends upon what you do*

Most riders, most situations, will not approach the limits of grip for a road bicycle tire, which are usually quite high. I use quite hard tires for commuting.

The magazines have tested the absolute limits of grip, on a dyno, of many popular race tires. They found a difference, but I'd bet most racers, even, coudn't tell the difference between major manufacturer's race rubber's grip at speed. "Feel" is more important here. 

In this aspect it is not like motor racing at all -- even a light race motorcycle is, what, 500 pounds with rider, and produces 100-200 horsepower. A bicycle and rider might be 200 pounds, but, only produces 1-2 horsepower...


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## charlox5 (Jan 31, 2011)

I also don't mean to discount people's subjective opinions--you guys made a good point about confidence while cornering and i think that makes a bigger difference than compound ever could--and I think subjective opinions are 100% legitimate (since they often motivate people like myself to spend $100+ on 400 g of rubber and nylon)

i was just skeptical that grip was something that ultimately matters when it comes to road tires.

also, if feel is such an important part of tire selection--why aren't there more choices in 25mm tires?


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

The only times my tires have ever lost grip with the road were when:
- Braking very hard and the rear tire skidded. That would probably happen with any tire.
- Cornering on sandy or slick roads from oil, paint stripes, water.

I have slid out and crashed once in 35+ years of road riding. In that case, I had just installed some new tires (Mavic Axial Pros) that had sat in my garage a long time. The tires had developed a glaze on the tread, which I didn't notice until after I crashed. I am certain that is what caused the crash because there was no sand, gravel or oil on the road where I slid out and I wasn't going any faster than would normally through a corner like that.

What I don't understand is: How can a tire have low rolling resistance yet be grippy in the corners at the same time? You hear people claim this all the time. Sort of like the old "vertically compliant yet laterally stiff" statement you hear ad nauseum about frames.


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## dave2pvd (Oct 15, 2007)

I think it's a good question.

Most non-pro riders will never reach the limits of cornering grip for a given tire.

There is an exception though: crit racers. Perhaps I should qualify: experienced crit racers that are good bike handlers and are currently racing.

I train on Vittoria Zaffiro Pros. They are puncture-resistant, hard compound 25mm tires. Great for training. Not so great for going around corners quickly. I have actually lost the front wheel on these once. Caught it - somehow, but ended up very surprised at how low the grip level was.

I race on Michelin Pro Race 3s. Those tires can handle very high cornering forces. Of course, they are very soft compound and lightweight. They will puncture easily. They wear quickly. If used as a road racing or training tire, they will wear down in the middle, which compromises cornering grip. This is something quite noticeable for me. Luckily reduced grip tends to be noticed at the rear - the wheel skips out in turns, particularly when trying to put power down early.

Last thought: many people waste money buying tires that are too expensive.


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## terzo rene (Mar 23, 2002)

Conti Hometrainer tires definitely have terrible grip. Beyond that all I know is tire pressure is paramount and Michelin mold release agent was apparently designed to be extra thick, as aggravating as possible to remove and guaranteed unsafe if left on.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

I've always felt a lot of slip when I ride armadillos.

Other than that... never felt the difference.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

dupe.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Ive had tires that "feel" different.. Like every kenda Ive ever been on feels like crap. That doesnt really mean it cornered poorly or anything, it just rode weird. Maybe not good, not bad, just weird and Id rather not spend my time on them. 

I used to ride rubinos, but got tired of super light weight tire durability. Im not the only one that noticed, but bontragers select 25c's are hidden treasures. Cheap, tested to have very low resistance, and they feel good to ride on.


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