# Blatent dopers in the pool- even more obvious than Vino!



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Controversy surrounds world-record 400 IM of China's 16-year-old Ye Shiwen - Yahoo! Sports



> Shiwen went 28.93 in her final 50 and 58.68 in her final 100 of her 400 IM. Lochte went 29.10 in his final 50. And the final 100 meters of the pair? Lochte went 58.65 to Shiwen's 58.68. That was such intriguing fodder that when Lochte was in the mixed zone Sunday morning, he said Shiwen had been a topic of conversation the previous night.


and


> Shiwen wasn't among the race favorites, yet she effectively peaked in the 400 IM on the Olympic stage despite never having won the event in a long-course international event. She also had never won a medal at a world championships prior to taking gold in the 200 IM in 2011.


Oy.


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## biobanker (Jun 11, 2009)

Wasnt Team USA warned to stay away from the Chinese swimmers due to worries about doping? Dont even brush up against them! Dont injest any water if youre in the next lane! They're sweating pure testosterone!


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Says it all right there.

_Shiwen wasn't among the race favorites, yet she effectively peaked in the 400 IM on the Olympic stage despite never having won the event in a long-course international event. She also had never won a medal at a world championships prior to taking gold in the 200 IM in 2011._


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## cyclesport45 (Dec 10, 2007)

Can you say, "Flo-Jo"?? {Look her up if you're a young'un)


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

*Coincidence?!*

“My coach has not been in cycling for long, he's come from swimming, so I've pretty much been training like the swimmers train,” Wiggins told reporters.

British Tour rider Wiggins lauds swim training philosophy | Swimmer's Daily


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Are there any cases when top women have been faster then top men in the pool before?


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Like Lance, she has "never tested positive."

Ridiculous though. 

So, if the Chinese are doping, why aren't they testing positive?


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

PaxRomana said:


> So, if the Chinese are doping, why aren't they testing positive?


Because only the stupid get caught.

Tests are easy to beat and there are so many PED's out there that work that they can't possibly test for them all...It's too cost prohibitive.


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## The Moontrane (Nov 28, 2005)

It's sexist to believe that a girl can't swim as fast as a man. :ihih:


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Wookiebiker said:


> Because only the stupid get caught.
> 
> Tests are easy to beat and there are so many PED's out there that work that they can't possibly test for them all...It's too cost prohibitive.


Which basically means that Lance's claims that he "passed" all these tests are meaningless in terms of proving he is clean. I agree with that.


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## sir duke (Mar 24, 2006)

Atlanta 1996 anyone? She's still lying about it.

View attachment 261755


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Smith


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

PaxRomana said:


> So, if the Chinese are doping, why aren't they testing positive?


Is there a test for blood doping?

I'd bet some sort of designer EPO, like CERA, could beat the tests too.


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## PaxRomana (Jan 16, 2012)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Is there a test for blood doping?
> 
> I'd bet some sort of designer EPO, like CERA, could beat the tests too.


There's been a test for Cera for some time. The manufacturer put a marker in the drug, if I remember correctly.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

PaxRomana said:


> There's been a test for Cera for some time. The manufacturer put a marker in the drug, if I remember correctly.


I know, it was just an example. I'm sure there are some smart chemists out there, if given enough funds can come up with drugs to beat the standard tests.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

sir duke said:


> Atlanta 1996 anyone? She's still lying about it.
> 
> View attachment 261755
> 
> ...


Crazy beotch is a lawyer now!:mad2:


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## Urb (Jul 19, 2010)

Don't the chinese use pregnancy and abortion to cause a "natural" increase in blood levels? Morally wrong but legal with the ioc?


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Urb said:


> Don't the chinese use pregnancy and abortion to cause a "natural" increase in blood levels? Morally wrong but legal with the ioc?


Seems like an incredible amount of trouble to go to when you can just blood dope.


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## Urb (Jul 19, 2010)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Seems like an incredible amount of trouble to go to when you can just blood dope.


Too much trouble for an athlete in China to win a gold medal? I believe there are other fringe benifits as well. Not just the increase in blood levels.

Mind you I don't know much about the process. Read the headline, skimmed through the article and though "crazy" but believable. A lot of it makes sense to me although once again morally incorrect.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Doping angle was a lead story tonight- her supplier and coaches must be furious with her sloppiness.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

It is just like history shows us when Rocky fought that Russian woman. 

As Rocky IV shows us, anything is possible when the need to use Olympic success to validate ideological principles puts the full power of the government apparatus squarely behind the athletes.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Dajianshan said:


> It is just like history shows us when Rocky fought that Russian woman.
> 
> As Rocky IV shows us, anything is possible when the need to use Olympic success to validate ideological principles puts the full power of the government apparatus squarely behind the athletes.


Well there's been no shortage of doped U.S. and other western Olympic performances without the government apparatus to validate its ideological principles.


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## MG537 (Jul 25, 2006)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well there's been no shortage of doped U.S. and other western Olympic performances without the government apparatus to validate its ideological principles.


Did you have to bring up Tammy Thomas again?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Dwayne Barry said:


> Well there's been no shortage of doped U.S. and other western Olympic performances without the government apparatus to validate its ideological principles.


Well the hope was that the government sponsored doping programs went away with the East Germans.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Swimming is a crybaby sport. No other sport do you have American media continually using dodgy comparisons to support their views on other countries drug use. Here the comparison is one man's last 50m of a 400m race (Lochte) and saying how because it slower than another woman's 50m in her last 50m of a 200m race (Shiwen) that is justification that the Chinese girl used drugs.

Firstly, anyone who follows swimming knows that Lochte sucked in that last 50m of his event. He went from leading to 4th in a span of 50m. Over his last 50m of his 400m race, he was over a full second slower than the three who medaled. In fact four swimmers in that final beat him in the last 50m: Yuya Horihata (27.87), Thomas Fraser-Holmes (28.35), Michael Phelps (28.44), Kosuke Hagino (28.52). Guess what, all four of them were faster than Shiwen, who finished with a 28.93 split. Anyway, it is a dumb comparison, Lochte didn't win his race. Secondly, Shiwen's 50m split is not even the fastest woman's 50m split in a women's 200m race (28.60s Federica Pellegrini). 

This is just a double standard here in swimming. American athletes never get the suspicious double talk that others do. Missy Franklin finished 8th yesterday in the semifinal of another event. Came back 14 minutes later, and won the 100m backstroke in the 4th fastest time in history. Her last 50m she wasn't even leading and came back with a near world record time to overtake the Aussie girl and win gold. If Missy Franklin were Chinese, that performance as well as her historic time in her own 100m backstroke would be deemed fraudulent.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

rook said:


> Swimming is a crybaby sport. No other sport do you have American media continually using dodgy comparisons to support their views on other countries drug use. Here the comparison is one man's last 50m of a 400m race (Lochte) and saying how because it slower than another woman's 50m in her last 50m of a 200m race (Shiwen) that is justification that the Chinese girl used drugs.
> 
> Firstly, anyone who follows swimming knows that Lochte sucked in that last 50m of his event. He went from leading to 4th in a span of 50m. Over his last 50m of his 400m race, he was over a full second slower than the three who medaled.


What are you talking about? The comparison was between Lochte's 400 IM, for which he won the GOLD medal, and Shiwen's 400 IM.

Lochte came in 4th in the 200 free. Phelps didn't even compete in the 200 free. I didn't bother to check your splits because it's clear you are misinformed. And there hasn't even been a women's final of 200m in length yet.

Also, for Missy Franklin, her first race was a semifinal. Backstroke was a final. Different amounts of effort there. Phelps even mentioned she asked how to meter her energy with the races being so close together.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

jorgy said:


> What are you talking about? The comparison was between Lochte's 400 IM, for which he won the GOLD medal, and Shiwen's 400 IM.
> 
> Lochte came in 4th in the 200 free. Phelps didn't even compete in the 200 free. I didn't bother to check your splits because it's clear you are misinformed. And there hasn't even been a women's final of 200m in length yet.
> 
> Also, for Missy Franklin, her first race was a semifinal. Backstroke was a final. Different amounts of effort there. Phelps even mentioned she asked how to meter her energy with the races being so close together.




Sorry, the time splits were correct. The distance was 400m as you say. The races I am comparing, Lochte finished 4th. He did win gold in the 400 IM, but not the other event.

The analogy to Missy Franklin stands though. Her performance was awe-inspiring. In a different event, she posted a time to barely advance in a distance different from an event that she did 14min later in which she came from behind to post the 4th fastest backstroke in the history of 100m backstroke competition. Her final 50m of her 100m was blazing. What a great performance!

Missy Franklin's performance was equally, if not more, impressive than Shiwen's. Is it fair to assume that Missy's performance is fueled by drugs?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

rook said:


> Sorry, the time splits were correct. The distance was 400m as you say. The races I am comparing, Lochte finished 4th. He did win gold in the 400 IM, but not the other event.
> 
> The analogy to Missy Franklin stands though. Her performance was awe-inspiring. In a different event, she posted a time to barely advance in a distance different from an event that she did 14min later in which she came from behind to post the 4th fastest backstroke in the history of 100m backstroke competition. Her final 50m of her 100m was blazing. What a great performance!
> 
> Missy Franklin's performance was equally, if not more, impressive than Shiwen's. Is it fair to assume that Missy's performance is fueled by drugs?


You're still getting it wrong. Lochte's only finals so far have been the 400 IM (GOLD), 200 free (4th) and as a member of the 400 relay (SILVER). Each member of the 400 relay swims 100 m. Lochte has not finished 4th in any event of 400 m, either individually or as a member of a team. Again, he finished 4th in the 200 free.

Eh, I still don't think the analogy to Missy Franklin is strong. She was advised to swim only as hard as she needed to to make the finals for the 200 free (I think). Her two races were analogous to comparing Stage 20 time trial results, one for someone trying to win the stage or cement a GC position and another who is soft-pedaling.

A better analogy would be to Janet Evans in 1988.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

jorgy said:


> You're still getting it wrong. Lochte's only finals so far have been the 400 IM (GOLD), 200 free (4th) and as a member of the 400 relay (SILVER). Each member of the 400 relay swims 100 m. Lochte has not finished 4th in any event of 400 m, either individually or as a member of a team. Again, he finished 4th in the 200 free.
> 
> Eh, I still don't think the analogy to Missy Franklin is strong. She was advised to swim only as hard as she needed to to make the finals for the 200 free (I think). Her two races were analogous to comparing Stage 20 time trial results, one for someone trying to win the stage or cement a GC position and another who is soft-pedaling.
> 
> A better analogy would be to Janet Evans in 1988.



Sorry, the time splits were correct. The distances listed were not, as was readily admitted. Lochte, as you have repeatedly said, did win the 400IM. I heard you the first time. The frenchman Agnel won the 200 free, and Lochte finished 4th.
http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/swimming/story/ryan-lochte-fourth-in-200-freestyle-as-yannick-agnel-wins-073012

The analogy to Missy Franklin still stands, irrespective of your opinion that Janet Evans performances in 1996 is a better analogy. Missy Franklin, is THE story, of this Olympics. At least, she is for American swimming. What she did yesterday is nothing short of spectacular. To have to swim, basically two events back to back at Olympic world-class level, and then come back to set the 4th fastest time in the history of the 100M backstroke is out-of-this world.

To be fair, to criticize the Chinese swimmer for her amazing accomplishment and claim it was fueled by drugs. And NOT say the same of Missy Franklin's even MORE impressive performance is disingenuous. And it is quite the double standard. I don't think it is fair to criticize either swimmer, but if you insist that Shiwen's performance is suspect, then you also have to do the same in looking at Missy Franklin's performance.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

rook said:


> Sorry, the time splits were correct. The distances listed were not, as was readily admitted. Lochte, as you have repeatedly said, did win the 400IM. I heard you the first time. The frenchman Agnel won the 200 free, and Lochte finished 4th.
> Ryan Lochte fourth in Olympics 200-meter freestyle
> 
> The analogy to Missy Franklin still stands, irrespective of your opinion that Janet Evans performances in 1996 is a better analogy. Missy Franklin, is THE story, of this Olympics. At least, she is for American swimming. What she did yesterday is nothing short of spectacular. To have to swim, basically two events back to back at Olympic world-class level, and then come back to set the 4th fastest time in the history of the 100M backstroke is out-of-this world.
> ...


What time splits were correct? Huh? You're talking about a completely different race. It's unclear exactly what race you pulled the time splits from. The 200 free (Phelps didn't race) or the 4x100 relay. In either case, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

I found Shiwen's performance 'interesting' from the get-go. An improvement of 5 seconds over her previous PR is monumental. Also, Shiwen's 400IM race was on Saturday. Missy Franklin's two races were yesterday, Monday.

I don't do time travel, and I don't think anyone else does either. To get bent out of shape that Missy Franklin Missy Franklin wasn't mentioned right away in this thread is irrational.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

jorgy said:


> What time splits were correct? Huh? You're talking about a completely different race. It's unclear exactly what race you pulled the time splits from. The 200 free (Phelps didn't race) or the 4x100 relay. In either case, they are irrelevant to the discussion.
> 
> I found Shiwen's performance 'interesting' from the get-go. An improvement of 5 seconds over her previous PR is monumental. Also, Shiwen's 400IM race was on Saturday. Missy Franklin's two races were yesterday, Monday.
> 
> I don't do time travel, and I don't think anyone else does either. To get bent out of shape that Missy Franklin Missy Franklin wasn't mentioned right away in this thread is irrational.




Doesn't matter. Ian Thorpe came to Shiwen's defense yesterday on the BBC saying that he improved by over 5 seconds in his freestyle event as a teenage prodigy. Check out USA Swimming's website. Look at Franklin's time in the backstroke in the Pan Am games from last year. She lopped off huge amounts of time in a little over a year. It isn't unheard of especially for these up-and-comers.

When this post was originally made, Franklin had yet to win gold and turn in her awesome performance. I'm not bent out of shape about Shiwen's suspect performance. You are. All I'm saying is that there is a double standard at play if you are to say that Shiwen's performance is fueled by drugs because it is so good. Yet, there is huge praise going around for Missy Franklin's even more impressive performance. I don't think it is fair to say that either girl was on drugs. However, if you say that Shiwen's performance is suspect, then you have to say that Missy's performance is suspect too.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

rook said:


> Doesn't matter. Ian Thorpe came to Shiwen's defense yesterday on the BBC saying that he improved by over 5 seconds in his freestyle event as a teenage prodigy. Look at Franklin's time in the backstroke in the Pan Am games from last year. She lopped off 7 seconds in a little over a year. It isn't unheard of.
> 
> When this post was originally made, Franklin had yet to win gold and turn in her awesome performance. I'm not bent out of shape about Shiwen's suspect performance. You are. All I'm saying is that there is a double standard at play if you are to say that Shiwen's performance is fueled by drugs because it is so good. Yet, there is huge praise going around for Missy Franklin's even more impressive performance. I don't think it is fair to say that either girl was on drugs. However, if you say that Shiwen's performance is suspect, then you have to say that Missy's performance is suspect too.


No, I'm not bent out of shape. I just wanted to correct what you posted. You had the races Shiwen and Lochte raced *completely* mixed up.

This thread started about Shiwen's performance. Days before Franklin raced. Seems like you're trying to use the Missy Franklin angle to detract from the fact that you really didn't know what you were talking about!

The 5 seconds was in a single jump. Was that the case for Thorpe and Franklin?


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

jorgy said:


> No, I'm not bent out of shape. I just wanted to correct what you posted. You had the races Shiwen and Lochte raced *completely* mixed up.
> 
> This thread started about Shiwen's performance. Days before Franklin raced. Seems like you're trying to use the Missy Franklin angle to detract from the fact that you really didn't know what you were talking about!
> 
> The 5 seconds was in a single jump. Was that the case for Thorpe and Franklin?




Yeah, you keep saying that like I didn't already hear. you. I heard you the first time. The distances were wrong. OK?

The bottom line is this. If Missy Franklin were Chinese, then her performance would be deemed equally, if not more, suspicious than that Shiwen.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

rook said:


> Yeah, you keep saying that like I didn't already hear. you. I heard you the first time. The distances were wrong. OK?
> 
> The bottom line is this. If Missy Franklin were Chinese, then her performance would be deemed equally, if not more, suspicious than that Shiwen.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

^
|

Oh. Now, you want to start posting of insulting pics at me? Lose the immature attitude jerk.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

rook said:


> Doesn't matter. Ian Thorpe came to Shiwen's defense yesterday on the BBC saying that he improved by over 5 seconds in his freestyle event as a teenage prodigy.


Thorpe? LOL.

In other news Ricardo Ricco came to Lance Armstrong's defense by saying that anti-doping agencies are witch hunters.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Thorpe? LOL.
> 
> In other news Ricardo Ricco came to Lance Armstrong's defense by saying that anti-doping agencies are witch hunters.



Thorpe also said some very complimentary things in his BBC interview about Missy Franklin too. Don't take his words out of context and say that just because he praises a swimmer means that their performances are suspect because Thorpe's performances may have been suspect as well.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

PaxRomana said:


> So, if the Chinese are doping, why aren't they testing positive?


Olympic dope testing is a joke. Sports like swimming that have huge training loads are natural sports for steroid use. It is easy to end a steroid cycle before the games so the drugs are undetectable.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

rook said:


> Thorpe also said some very complimentary things in his BBC interview about Missy Franklin too. Don't take his words out of context and say that just because he praises a swimmer means that their performances are suspect because Thorpe's performances may have been suspect as well.


Thorpe tested positive for testosterone. The Aussies kept it secret but l'Equipe, the French newspaper found out, and printed a story. The Australians let him off just like the Spanish let Contador off. I think swimming's governing body pursued it in CAS for a while but eventually dropped it.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Thorpe tested positive for testosterone. The Aussies kept it secret but l'Equipe, the French newspaper found out, and printed a story. The Australians let him off just like the Spanish let Contador off. I think swimming's governing body pursued it in CAS for a while but eventually dropped it.



I heard this too. I don't doubt what you are saying and in addition, the alleged use of PEDs in Thorpe's case is strong and in addition to steroids he may have been on EPO as well. There are probably tons of swimmers that are on PEDs. I don't agree, however, that Olympic testing is a joke. UCI testing is a joke.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

rook said:


> I heard this too. I don't doubt what you are saying and in addition, the alleged use of PEDs in Thorpe's case is strong and in addition to steroids he may have been on EPO as well. There are probably tons of swimmers that are on PEDs. I don't agree, however, that Olympic testing is a joke. UCI testing is a joke.


What the heck could possibly make you think that Olympic testing is better than the UCI's?

The UCI is corrupt for sure, but it is a piker in corruption compared to the IOC.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> What the heck could possibly make you think that Olympic testing is better than the UCI's?
> 
> The UCI is corrupt for sure, but it is a piker in corruption compared to the IOC.



The better question is what makes you think that the Olympic testing is more corrupt than the UCI?


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## goloso (Feb 4, 2004)

rook said:


> ^
> |
> 
> Oh. Now, you want to start posting of insulting pics at me? Lose the immature attitude jerk.


Physician, heal thyself.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

The great thing about the dope-testing and athlete doping is that *all* factions - competitors, teams, nations/governments, regulators, event organizers, agents, TV, journalists, fans and on and on, IMHO, are either corrupt or biased. All sides have their own issues. This causes all arguments pro and con to be gray/nuanced. That's what makes this doping forum such a good site! :wink5:


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## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Was any action ever taken on the soccer players blood which was found stored at the Spanish obstetrician's office?


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

*Steroid Testing??*



trailrunner68 said:


> Olympic dope testing is a joke. Sports like swimming that have huge training loads are natural sports for steroid use. It is easy to end a steroid cycle before the games so the drugs are undetectable.


I thought steroids was one of the easier drugs to test for unless you cycle off of it a long time prior to testing? I'm not very knowledgeable about drug testing. How long do they maintain an advantage once they cycle off?


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> What the heck could possibly make you think that Olympic testing is better than the UCI's?
> 
> The UCI is corrupt for sure, but it is a piker in corruption compared to the IOC.



The Olympics testing is in a WADA accredited lab.

London Olympic Laboratory Declared Ready By WADA - News | NBC Olympics


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

goloso said:


> Physician, heal thyself.



I'm not a doctor. What makes you think I am and what the crap is this about anyway?


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

80sroadie said:


> I thought steroids was one of the easier drugs to test for unless you cycle off of it a long time prior to testing? I'm not very knowledgeable about drug testing. How long do they maintain an advantage once they cycle off?


There are all sorts of steroids. They have difference clearance rates. Stuff like Deca is detectable for up to eighteen months. That is an extreme case. Other stuff have much shorter detection windows. Fast acting testosterone will be undetectable hours after use. Everyone needs to taper anyway before the Olympics, so anything that clears in a few weeks would have a definite performance advantage. Of course, autologous blood doping is undetectable even at competition, insulin is undectable, EPO can be microdosed so it is undectable within hours, etc.

A lot more dopers would be caught if the tests done in competition were instead done weeks before competiton.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

trailrunner68 said:


> Of course, autologous blood doping is undetectable even at competition, insulin is undectable, EPO can be microdosed so it is undectable within hours, etc.
> 
> A lot more dopers would be caught if the tests done in competition were instead done weeks before competiton.


There is out of competition testing though I don't know how it compares to cycling. If the WADA is doing it then I'd imagine it's done at similar intervals.

Autologous blood doping is indeed detectable. The ratio they test for is reticulocyte (young or new blood cells) count. If it's low but hematocrit is normal to high it is indicative of autologous transfusion.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

davidka said:


> Autologous blood doping is indeed detectable. The ratio they test for is reticulocyte (young or new blood cells) count. If it's low but hematocrit is normal to high it is indicative of autologous transfusion.


Indicative is not a positive. The UCI's bio passport is chock full of cases that are indicative of blood doping. Only the most extreme are prosecuted. All those rely on longitudinal data and data points that fall outside the norms for the individual athlete, The IOC has no passport. While cycling adopted rules for maximum hematocrits which then gave way to off-scores, the Olympics in general has not. It is up to individual sports, and only a few of them have done more than lift a finger to combat doping. Most of the sports claim that doping is not a problem in their sport.

Reticulocytes can be manipuated with microdosed EPO.


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## 80sroadie (Jul 30, 2012)

*Trail ultra testing?*

I trail run as cross training and read a lot about the ultras (50k-100mi) in Trailrunner mag, but I don't remember ever reading about doping issues/testing. Does anyone know if the big races like Leadville or Western States are testing for PEDs?


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

80sroadie said:


> I trail run as cross training and read a lot about the ultras (50k-100mi) in Trailrunner mag, but I don't remember ever reading about doping issues/testing. Does anyone know if the big races like Leadville or Western States are testing for PEDs?


They don't test. First prize is a trophy and a belt buckle. There is no money to test. 95% of the runners are just there to finish, beat their previous record, or go under a certain number of hours.

It would not surprise me if a goodly number are using testosterone.

Triathlon is where there needs to be testing. That sport is crazy with doping at the amateur level. People will do anything to get to Kona.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

The Chinese team breaks the world womens sprint record in the qualifying, then again in the next round. Impressive...


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

roddjbrown said:


> The Chinese team breaks the world womens sprint record in the qualifying, then again in the next round. Impressive...


Don't know if you are implying anything but 

a) that Chinese team are known to be among the best

and 

b) that track is known to be very fast.

A lot of track WRs are going to fall in the next few days.


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## Big-foot (Dec 14, 2002)

It's really nothing new.


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

cq20 said:


> Don't know if you are implying anything but
> 
> a) that Chinese team are known to be among the best
> 
> ...


I actually wasn't, meant to put that in the pro cycling forum. The dangers of viewing two threads at the same time, apologies


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

trailrunner68 said:


> Indicative is not a positive. The UCI's bio passport is chock full of cases that are indicative of blood doping. Only the most extreme are prosecuted. All those rely on longitudinal data and data points that fall outside the norms for the individual athlete, The IOC has no passport. While cycling adopted rules for maximum hematocrits which then gave way to off-scores, the Olympics in general has not. It is up to individual sports, and only a few of them have done more than lift a finger to combat doping. Most of the sports claim that doping is not a problem in their sport.
> 
> Reticulocytes can be manipuated with microdosed EPO.


No, alone it isn't a positive but it is a strong enough indicator to take an athlete from random testing to focused testing. I guess Ret's can be manipulated that way but doesn't that compound EPO accelerated blood production on top of transfused blood? You've also introduced the risk of EPO detection, however small. 

I agree that they are not catching most of the offenders but got to give them an "A" for effort. They're working on a shoestring budget for what they're up against.


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

.. and in athletics, I see that according to Reuters

"American Crystal Cox, who won 4x400 meters relay gold at the 2004 Athens Olympics, was stripped of her medal on Saturday, the International Olympic Committee said."

Better late than never, I guess.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

Where's the USADA when the Olympics needs 'em?


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm still calling BS on this. Missy Franklin setting a world record at 17! And destroying the field in the process? And Rebecca Soni also getting a gold and beating a world record that has lasted for nearly a decade? Yeah right. And the American media want to use a single split time in a gold medal performance that wasn't a world record as the basis for their suspicion that a Chinese athlete is doping? That's BS and a double standard!


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## cq20 (Mar 24, 2007)

American Katie Ledecky (15) has just won her first ever major championship in the 800m freestyle at the Olympics. She has reduced her time by 20 seconds in a year. 

I wonder what would be said if she was Chinese.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

cq20 said:


> American Katie Ledecky (15) has just won her first ever major championship in the 800m freestyle at the Olympics. She has reduced her time by 20 seconds in a year.
> 
> I wonder what would be said if she was Chinese.



Yep! Exactly!


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

I improved my mile (running) time by 47 seconds between 9th and 10th grade, and that wasn't unusual at all. At that young age, kids are growing, improving their technique, getting good coaching for the first time, etc. if you happen to be born with the physiological equipment to be a world class athlete, you are still going to make those big performance jumps at some point.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

What says it all is experienced, fully developed athletes getting beaten by fifteen and sixteen year olds. Explain that.

Has a sixteen year old ever beaten the world 100m record in track and field? When was the last time a sixteen year old won the Tour de France or the Boston marathon?


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Women have a long history of excelling at a young age in swimming, gymnastics, and diving. This has occurred across a wide variety of countries. Note that in swimming, they are not excelling in the shorter power events like 50 free. The posts I responded to implied that a significant year over year performance improvement was grounds for doping suspicion, I merely pointed out that at that age it was not unusual.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Addict07 said:


> Women have a long history of excelling at a young age in swimming, gymnastics, and diving. This has occurred across a wide variety of countries. Note that in swimming, they are not excelling in the shorter power events like 50 free. The posts I responded to implied that a significant year over year performance improvement was grounds for doping suspicion, I merely pointed out that at that age it was not unusual.


Gymnastics and diving are different than a sport like swimming. Young athletes have a small moment of intertia, giving them an advantage for moves that require rotation. For gymnastics there may be an additional advantage of a low mass putting less stress on the athletes during dismounts and other moves that could cause impact injuries. 

Swimming requires a combination of aerobic, anaerobic, and muscular effort. Athletes peak in those areas in their late twenties and early thirties. What is the reason for fifteen year olds setting world swim records?


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

How's everybody feel about that 15 yr old American girl swimming at world record pace and winning the gold by a half-pools length over her closest competitors? Can you say doper? Or does that not apply to American swimmers?


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Half a pool length? We must have been watching a different race. I can't prove a negative, and all you offer is her age shouldn't allow her to achieve what she did, despite others having previously done it. I guess we should just pass a rule that no teenage woman swimmers should be allowed to medal at the Olympics because they must be doping.

If they are doping, I do have more onfidence it will be exposed through USADA than through, say, the Spanish cycling federation or Jamaican track and field.


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

Addict07 said:


> Half a pool length? We must have been watching a different race. I can't prove a negative, and all you offer is her age shouldn't allow her to achieve what she did, despite others having previously done it. I guess we should just pass a rule that no teenage woman swimmers should be allowed to medal at the Olympics because they must be doping.
> 
> If they are doping, I do have more onfidence it will be exposed through USADA than through, say, the Spanish cycling federation or Jamaican track and field.



Yes, the majority of Ledecky's competitors from 3-8 were half a pool's length behind at the finish. The eventual silver medalist was not even within 3 full body lengths behind Ledecky.

She's 15! And hasn't done anything in a major competition until last month at the Olympic trials. This shows the double standard that you and others use when coming to Ledecky's defense on her out-of-this world performance, but accuse the 16yr old Chinese swimmer of doping based on her own superb performance.


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## old_fuji (Mar 16, 2009)

Did anyone actually catch Ledecky's race? She killed it, yeah, but she lost a TON of steam in the last 3-4 lengths. She (as well as second and third place) were quite a ways ahead of the WR time, but they all tapered off quite quickly towards the end.

Swimming today isn't the same as it was in 2000. I was actually just discussing this with my girlfriend (been a competitive swimmer all her life, spends her days around pools, cohorts regularly with Olympic hopefuls) and she was saying that the racing suits have come SO far in the past 8 years...that's why swimming has become SO much more competitive and fast. And yes, while Lochte did set the WR in competition using an old-school suit last year, everybody at the Olympics brings their A-game. It's really no wonder records fall so quickly in Olympic swimming.


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## Addict07 (Jun 23, 2011)

Yes, I saw the race. She won by 2-3 lengths, not unusual in a distance race. On the track, the Algerian 10,000 meter woman won by a big margin as well, and she blew away and even lapped much of a supposedly world class field. Was she doping?

Oh, and I never accused the Chinese woman of doping, so please keep your facts straight. You might be able to take issue with others on here for having a double standard, but not me. In fact, the Chinese woman only bolsters my point, that it is possible for teenaged women swimmers to succeed in some events at a world class level.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

rook said:


> This shows the double standard that you and others use when coming to Ledecky's defense on her out-of-this world performance, but accuse the 16yr old Chinese swimmer of doping based on her own superb performance.


I for one will accuse them all of doping. I think there are certain sports where everyone at the top is doped. Weight lifting. Track and field sprinting. Swimming. Cycling. Et cetera. I doubt there has been a clean Olympic winner in these sports for at least thirty years. The dope works too well and the stakes are too high not to dope.

Somebody explain to me what advantages a fifteen or sixteen year old has over a fully developed athlete. Is it buoyancy? Drag? What outweighs peak aerobic and anaerobic power?


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## rook (Apr 5, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> I for one will accuse them all of doping. I think there are certain sports where everyone at the top is doped. Weight lifting. Track and field sprinting. Swimming. Cycling. Et cetera. I doubt there has been a clean Olympic winner in these sports for at least thirty years. The dope works too well and the stakes are too high not to dope.
> 
> Somebody explain to me what advantages a fifteen or sixteen year old has over a fully developed athlete. Is it buoyancy? Drag? What outweighs peak aerobic and anaerobic power?



I am not buying it. If you really did think these American teens are doping you would've said so. But no, it was only the Cinese girl, right? Man, the hypocrisy of Americans always thinking someone else did it.

Did Missy Franklin dope? Did Katie Ledecky dope?


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## roddjbrown (Jan 19, 2012)

rook said:


> I am not buying it. If you really did think these American teens are doping you would've said so. But no, it was only the Cinese girl, right? Man, the hypocrisy of Americans always thinking someone else did it.
> 
> Did Missy Franklin dope? Did Katie Ledecky dope?


Myself and Trailrunnner have had several disagreements on this forum but are you serious? He said he thinks they're doping so you respond by saying he actually thinks the complete opposite?? 

I on the other hand don't think either of them are doping. Nor do I believe that it's necessary to dope to be at the top in any sport and frankly I find it pretty tragic that the first presumption on ANY good performance is accusations and finger pointing. If people are doping, hang them out to dry. Ban them from competing for life and fine them. But if people believe that every outstanding performance is artificially obtained why on EARTH do you watch sport??


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## 88 rex (Mar 18, 2008)

trailrunner68 said:


> Somebody explain to me what advantages a fifteen or sixteen year old has over a fully developed athlete. Is it buoyancy? Drag? What outweighs peak aerobic and anaerobic power?


I'm not sure, and I'm just a recreational swimmer, BUT, man, those small girls just GLIDE through the water. Ridiculous! They effortlessly cut through the water.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

88 rex said:


> I'm not sure, and I'm just a recreational swimmer, BUT, man, those small girls just GLIDE through the water. Ridiculous! They effortlessly cut through the water.


No boobs, no hips.


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## Chainstay (Mar 13, 2004)

*Coincidence is where you want to find it*



Local Hero said:


> “My coach has not been in cycling for long, he's come from swimming, so I've pretty much been training like the swimmers train,” Wiggins told reporters.
> 
> British Tour rider Wiggins lauds swim training philosophy | Swimmer's Daily


Your logic appears to flow something like this.

"Since we all suspect that this Chinese athlete is a doper then it follows that all Chinese swimmers are dopers. Therefore all swimmers are dopers and any athlete that uses a swimming coach is also a doper. Therefore Bradley Wiggins is a doper"

Keeping the idea going that would make all cyclist dopers. It couldn't be a coincidence surely?


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

This is why I think Ye's performance is more suspect that Missy Franklin's: The Soviet-East German style training program for athletes.

Heavy Burden on Athletes Takes Joy Away From China’s Olympic Success

_By any measure, this should be a season of unvarnished celebration for China. It has pulled slightly ahead of the United States in the battle for medals, and the Games have produced a new national hero in Sun Yang, the first Chinese man to win an Olympic gold in swimming.

But in recent days, a tide of self-doubt and introspection about the human costs of China’s Olympic prowess has arisen amid worries that the nation’s draconian sports system is sometimes producing damaged goods. Floundering athletes can even be cast aside after their careers are over — a point driven home last year when a former gold medal gymnast was found begging on the streets of Beijing. According to the state media, 240,000 retired athletes are grappling with injuries, poverty and unemployment.

Sometimes the victors inadvertently reveal the sacrifices they were forced to endure during their years of training. Last week, shortly after winning her third Olympic gold medal, the Chinese diver Wu Minxia was told that her grandparents had died years earlier and that her mother had been diagnosed with cancer. Ms. Wu’s father explained that the family preferred to lie to his daughter all those years rather than risk harming her Olympic prospects.

“We accepted a long time ago that she doesn’t belong to us,” the father, Wu Yuming, told a Shanghai newspaper. “I don’t even dare think about things like enjoying family happiness.”_


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

The _faster leg than the MENS gold medal winner_ would seem to be the "most suspect".


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

*dopers*



trailrunner68 said:


> There are all sorts of steroids. They have difference clearance rates. Stuff like Deca is detectable for up to eighteen months. That is an extreme case. Other stuff have much shorter detection windows. Fast acting testosterone will be undetectable hours after use. Everyone needs to taper anyway before the Olympics, so anything that clears in a few weeks would have a definite performance advantage. Of course, autologous blood doping is undetectable even at competition, insulin is undectable, EPO can be microdosed so it is undectable within hours, etc.
> 
> A lot more dopers would be caught if the tests done in competition were instead done weeks before competiton.


I notice US team has huge upper bodies. Is this due to steroids, or just natural+weightlifting?


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