# GP4000SII Sidewall Blowout



## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

I recently suffered a sidewall blowout on my front tire during a descent and am lucky to be alive. In 40+ years of riding I have never had this happen before. I am 6'1", 240 lbs and ride 2,000 mi/yr. The tires were relatively new (500 miles) Continental Grand Prix 4000sII. I sent a picture to Continental and they said it was road hazard damage, not their fault, despite the fact that somebody else posted a picture with 
the exac












t same damage. I think it was either a design or manufacturing flaw. I really liked the way the tires rode but now I am scared to use them again. Is this a normal event and do I need to use a tire with stronger sidewalls?


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Yes and no.

Yes, it's road hazard damage. They are right.

Yes, the other person had the same thing happen to them as you did.

So have I, a few times, with the same tire. 


Yes, this tire is known for having sidewall cuts/blowouts.

Yes, riding a different tire could help solve this problem for you.

No, you don't need to ride a different tire, you just need to pay attention better now.



What most likely happened, 99% of time when this happens, is you hit a piece of gravel.

Yup, that's all that happened, you hit a piece of gravel. A rock.

If you can manage to retrain yourself to pay better attention and avoid the rocks, you can keep riding this tire. If you cannot manage to do that, you should switch to a different tire. Maybe the 4 seasons.


I know how frustrating and scary it is, it's happened to me over 40mph on the front wheel more than once. I continue to ride this tire though, for me it's the best tire on the market. I have hyper diligence about gravel. I've never punctured any other way besides a sidewall blowout on these tires in over... I don't even know... over 30k miles at least.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

do a forum search on 'sidewall'...

there are some similar threads regarding Contis (and some other brands as well).

ride em or don't...most users find them to be high-quality tires.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

MMsRepBike said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, it's road hazard damage. They are right.
> 
> ...


^This^. And post in the correct section, which would be...you guessed it...WHEELS&TIRES. General Cycling Discussion is NOT the place for every post.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

I came here thinking there was a Blowout Sale on tires.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

That does appear to be a rock cut.

but at 240 lbs, I think you should get the toughest tire you can find that'll still fit your frame. Look into an "endurance" 28mm tire.

and when you descend, take the lane, don't go into the shoulders, that's where are the sharp rocks tend to be. Try to ride along the wheel tracks of cars, these are the cleanest real estates of asphalt you'll find on the road (yeah, there's a possiblity of an oil slick, but small possibility compared to sharp rocks on the shoulders)


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

MMsRepBike said:


> If you cannot manage to do that, you should switch to a different tire. Maybe the 4 seasons.


4 Season sidewalls are no better than GP4000s, in my experience. I can't fault your advice about staying out of the gravel, though.

Only other comment is that given the usual Conti failure mode, once I get even a small nick in a sidewall I write the tire off rather than try to eek more miles out of it. It's possible OP got a small cut a week or month ago and it picked this ride to let go.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I cut three of them in about 100 miles.
I've never cut a Vittoria Pave or Corsa in 50,000 miles.

Some say those tires suck because of the sidewalls. Others say it's just bad luck and it would happen with any tire. You can guess which way I feel based on my experience.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I cut three of them in about 100 miles.
> I've never cut a Vittoria Pave or Corsa in 50,000 miles.
> 
> Some say this tires suck because of the sidewalls. Others say it's just bad luck and it would happen with any tire. You can guess which way I feel based on my experience.


Not that it really matters but, for the masses, I've had the opposite experience. GP4000ii's have been amazing while I've had really bad luck with the Corsa. I don't have an exact amount of milage on my current set of tires but, it's thousands of miles. I'm totally guessing here maybe 3000-4000 miles. They are pretty square and I'm starting to think it's time...but, the proverbial rash of flats has not started yet.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

woodys737 said:


> Not that it really matters but, for the masses, I've had the opposite experience.


Google searching shows about 10x the number of hits for sidewall blowouts on contis compared to vittoria.

I don't know the numbers of each ridden by cyclists, which would be needed to make a guestimate on probabilities. A WAGuesstimate of course.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> Google searching shows about 10x the number of hits for sidewall blowouts on contis compared to vittoria.
> 
> I don't know the numbers of each ridden by cyclists, which would be needed to make a guestimate on probabilities. A WAGuesstimate of course.


Yeah it's strange and freakin me out as I've had the opposite experience. 3 sets of wheels with these mounted. IMO they handle the heat really well and I do ride on messy fod ridden streets. Just ordered another set as I type...

Another tire I tried and thought sucked (for flats but rolled better than anything) was the Specialized Turbo Cotton. People roll those all day and no problems. I gave mine away they sucked so bad. Maybe it's me.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

I think the bottom line here is that while there are tires that do one thing well and there are tires that do many things so-so, there are no tires that do everything well.

Conti GP4000S IIs seem to be loved for their ride characteristics. They are supple, as are most Conti tires. Supple tires have a high thread count per inch (TPI). The higher the TPI, the more supple the tire. However, because the TPI is higher, the threads are thinner and therefore more fragile and more prone to punctures.

A lower TPI tire like the Maxxis Re-Fuse will be bombproof. The ride will be relatively rough, but running lower pressure can offset that to an extent.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

You rode a tire and the cords failed, before you realized you had tire damage. 
Do you inspect your tires regularly? If not, one should consider your choice of tire.
Personally I would not ride a tire that normal usage results in catastrophic failure.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> Not that it really matters but, for the masses, I've had the opposite experience. GP4000ii's have been amazing while I've had really bad luck with the Corsa. I don't have an exact amount of milage on my current set of tires but, it's thousands of miles. I'm totally guessing here maybe 3000-4000 miles. They are pretty square and I'm starting to think it's time...but, the proverbial rash of flats has not started yet.


We're talking about side wall cuts. Not natural wear or routine flat. Sounds like you are talking about wear and regular flats. No questions Vittoria corsa wears faster and probably flats easier. 
The difference being you have to throw out a tires with a side wall cut not regular flats and longevity is something you can choose to accept or not before buying.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> However, because the TPI is higher, the threads are thinner and therefore more fragile and more prone to punctures.


I think it matters what those threads actually are not just the count. I've taken Vittoria Paves (320 TPI) though some nasty sharp rocks ect and never cut a side wall. Some of those 320 threads are kevlar and I think that matters.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think it matters what those threads actually are not just the count. I've taken Vittoria Paves (320 TPI) though some nasty sharp rocks ect and never cut a side wall. Some of those 320 threads are kevlar and I think that matters.


Interesting. But are the Vittoria Paves as supple as the Conti GP4000S IIs?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Interesting. But are the Vittoria Paves as supple as the Conti GP4000S IIs?


More so. in my opinion.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> More so. in my opinion.


Hmmm. Maybe those are the ones I should try then. Noted. I love the puncture resistance of my Maxxis Re-Fuses, but wouldn't mind having something a little bit nicer riding.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Hmmm. Maybe those are the ones I should try then. Noted. I love the puncture resistance of my Maxxis Re-Fuses, but wouldn't mind having something a little bit nicer riding.


The are discontinued though you could probably still find some. But the new Corsa has the same casing so theoretically flat protection should be the same. They wear quick. Soft rubber and not a lot of it. Not sure how the new rubber with graphine they use now wears.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

After cutting a pair of 200mi GP4K S IIs in this manner on the same ride (one blowout, one I noticed the cut later at home,) I decided to stop riding the tires. There’s too much cracked pavement, small twigs, random pebbles in my area for tires with such thin sidewalls. Oddly the Vittoria Corsa G+ I tried never suffered sidewall cuts, but they had a tread life of about 1300mi on the roads here.

For me the solution was going tubeless basically. The naturally beefier casings on even the race tires plus being able to seal most punctures means I’ve only had two flats this year. One was a giant screw, so on me for not seeing it. The second was a defective IRC Formula Pro Tubeless tire.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I have been riding Conti GP4000IIs and 4 Seasons pretty much exclusively on my road bikes for the last three or four years.

Probably 25k miles all tolled, and I've never experienced a sidewall cut, and only a few (3 or 4?) flats. 

I did slice a pair of them to the rim, but that was an unusual circumstance, were I rode over a sharp piece of metal that was laying across the road in a shaded area on a bright day, and I did not see it in time to bunny hop it. It would have sliced any tire to the rim. Fortunately, I didn't crash, and I was within walking distance of my house.

I've tried a few other tires (Schwalbe Pro One, Hutchinson Sector 28, Vittoria Corsa G+), but I keep coming back to Continentals.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Some people just have better roads to ride on. The Conti sidewall issue is well documented. I don’t think our anecdotes are just noise.


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## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

*To Review*

Until this happened, I had never had a sidewall failure in over 40+ years of riding 2,000 mi/yr. I have ridden in the city, the country, and mostly in semi-rural Bucks/Hunterdon Counties. I can't say I inspected my tires the day of the blowout. This was a normal weeknight ride like hundreds of others, the only difference being the relatively new GP4000SII tires. I have been using other Continental tires and this was my first experience with this model. IMHO these tires too susceptible to catastrophic failure for me and I will go back to a more durable tire.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

hmm I am just finishing up a full year on gp4ks2. I really love this tire. and .. I often ride on gravel, plus the bike lanes here are strewn with gravel.

however, I have a set of new Schwalbe Pro one tubeless I plan to start using soon. But I plan to do a 170km fondo first on the conti tires - on the very rough Tucson roads. Maybe I ought to swap now.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

npwhitman said:


> IMHO these tires too susceptible to catastrophic failure for me and I will go back to a more durable tire.


hey, whatever works for ya...

I'll be rolling on Conti 4KIIs tomorrow with no worries whatsoever.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

"These tires work fine in my limited experience" isn't really helpful to the many who do find GP4K sidewalls unacceptably thin or fragile.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDOiPZhSOcW/?taken-by=dorkeugene

Look familiar? Happened on a post-rain ride with a couple of stray pebbles strewn on the road surface. If GP4Ks were true race-day-only tires like Corsa Speeds or some Veloflex tires, I'd chalk it up to picking the wrong horse for the course.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

I finally gave up on conti GP series after riding them from the 3000 series up through the 4000-II.

On the rides I do, they tended to be flat magnets.

I changed over to vred tri-comp variants.

About a year later, I reduced the number of spare tubes I carry from 2 to 1, and I should probably check that one for dry rot.

The change in durability between the conti gp 4000 tires and the vred tri-comp is that dramatic.

Plus, the vreds compound, where the rubber meets the road, is a lot stickier in corners than the conti tires. Comparing the two, the contis were hard and slippery in corners compared to the corner-on-rails vred tri-comps.

Just my experience. I'll never buy another overpriced, overrated (imho) conti bike tire.

When I hear horror stories like sidewall blowouts (well documented) at 40 mph, but then the person says "I'll continue to ride conti GP 4000" tires, I just scratch my head. 


BTW, I had similar experiences with crappy durability and performance with my conti summer ultra performance tires on my GTI. I couldn't believe the improvement when I dumped the contis for Michelin Super Sport PS2 summer ultra performance tires.

I think conti is riding a wave of brand loyalty that has been undeserved for about 5 - 10 years.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

SPlKE said:


> I changed over to vred tri-comp variants.
> 
> About a year later, I reduced the number of spare tubes I carry from 2 to 1, and I should probably check that one for dry rot.
> 
> ...


Another fan of the Vreds.

And, yeah, I don't understand the loyalty to a tire with a sidewall that the owner _expects_ to have sidewall issues with.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> We're talking about side wall cuts. Not natural wear or routine flat. Sounds like you are talking about wear and regular flats. No questions Vittoria corsa wears faster and probably flats easier.
> The difference being you have to throw out a tires with a side wall cut not regular flats and longevity is something you can choose to accept or not before buying.


Yeah sorry I wasn't clear I guess. The Corsa had sidewall cuts. The Specialized Turbo was run o the mill flats running over dry leaves, puddles of water and the dreaded newly paved road. 

I'm with you otherwise. Just throwing out my experience as I think I log more than normal miles than average...


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

npwhitman said:


> Until this happened, I had never had a sidewall failure in over 40+ years of riding 2,000 mi/yr. I have ridden in the city, the country, and mostly in semi-rural Bucks/Hunterdon Counties. I can't say I inspected my tires the day of the blowout. This was a normal weeknight ride like hundreds of others, the only difference being the relatively new GP4000SII tires. I have been using other Continental tires and this was my first experience with this model. IMHO these tires too susceptible to catastrophic failure for me and I will go back to a more durable tire.


Not looking to argue but, I just disagree based on my riding over 1000 miles/month on average for years on these things. Matter of fact I don't recall a sidewall cut ever adn I feel like I put these through a pace that would pass any test.

With that said, I've had bad luck with other tires that many love and have had the opposite experience. Not sure what to say at this point but, I will stand behind the GP4Kii any day of the week. Good luck!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

The conti sidewall issue is pretty well document on google. Take it for what it's worth, but to me it does mean something when google returns a lot of negative posts on it, lol.

My personal experience with contis is that it's sidewall does seem to start to show sign of fraying way before the middle of the tire has come close to wearing out its life. I ride mountains every weekend so that means a lot of heavy braking on the front wheel, and it's almost always the case that I would have to ditch a conti due to sidewall starting to show sign of fraying. Not about to risk my life on a descend by trying to extend its life by a few more hundred miles.

To be fair, Michilen Pro 4 and Schwable also show sign of fraying too, but those take on a lot more mileage before so. I've find that the Vittoria Corsa don't show fraying at all, yet the Vittoria is a thinner tire! So something about the sidewall construction of Vittoria that make it last. Vittoria also handle like a boss in fast corner. I now use Vittoria for the front.


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## bmach (Apr 13, 2011)

mmsrepbike, how can you tell it is road damage? What are the clues the tell you the difference? I’m not doubting you but I have no idea what to look for and am just asking so I learn something. I know if they were my tires I might remember hitting something as a clue?


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Supple? Not sure I ever heard anybody call these "supple," unless you ride them at 80psi. In my experience, riding at 100-105 psi, these rode rather harshly.
Like the OP, I suffered catastrophic sidewall failure from fairly wimpy "road hazards" within 500 miles on different rides. Put a dollar-bill boot in there to limp home. The sidewalls lack a mesh material like, say, a dollar bill. Tear easily as a result. Nothing of the sort with 50k of riding PR3 and 4's, which corner better and exhibit a supple ride.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

ceugene said:


> Some people just have better roads to ride on. The Conti sidewall issue is well documented. I don’t think our anecdotes are just noise.


Anecdotes are anecdotes - good or bad, correct?

I ride on good roads and bad roads, in the Pacific Northwest where it rains often, and the roads and shoulders are usually covered in various forms of debris most of the year. I'm also 6' 5" and 230lbs and average 10k miles a year. I would think I would be more prone to sidewall cuts than the average rider who is lighter, rides in places where the weather is better and the road conditions are not great.




aclinjury said:


> The conti sidewall issue is pretty well document on google. Take it for what it's worth, but to me it does mean something when google returns a lot of negative posts on it, lol.



The Conti 4000 is one of, if not the most popular tire on the road. Just by sheer numbers there are going to be more anecdotal reports of failures than other tires.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

If the cuts were small, I’d be inclined to say it’s bad luck. If it wasn’t anecdotes from close friends with the exact same sidewall cuts, then again it might be bad luck. Unfortunately these are gaping tears in the sidewalls and they aren’t clean slashes... it’s actually the threads pulling apart. It also happens to enough people I know personally with just Conti tires and not other makes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Migen21 said:


> A
> The Conti 4000 is one of, if not the most popular tire on the road. Just by sheer numbers there are going to be more anecdotal reports of failures than other tires.


It's pretty much a fact the side walls cut easy on this tire compared to others.

When I blew out 3 in 100 miles (nice anecdote there), I saved the last one and did some experimenting with it but trying to cut the side wall by hand compared to some other Vittoria Corsas I had laying around. 
The side walls are extremely thin and cut easy. That's a fact not an anecdote.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> The are discontinued though you could probably still find some. But the new Corsa has the same casing so theoretically flat protection should be the same. They wear quick. Soft rubber and not a lot of it. Not sure how the new rubber with graphine they use now wears.


Wear quick? As in how many miles between replacement? I get 3K miles out of a rear Maxxis Re-Fuse.




ceugene said:


> After cutting a pair of 200mi GP4K S IIs in this manner on the same ride (one blowout, one I noticed the cut later at home,) I decided to stop riding the tires. There’s too much cracked pavement, small twigs, random pebbles in my area for tires with such thin sidewalls. Oddly the Vittoria Corsa G+ I tried never suffered sidewall cuts,





ceugene said:


> *but they had a tread life of about 1300mi on the roads here*.


Deal breaker. I think I'll stick with my harsh but bombproof Re-Fuses for now.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> When I hear horror stories like sidewall blowouts (well documented) at 40 mph, but then the person says "I'll continue to ride conti GP 4000" tires, I just scratch my head.


^This^



SPlKE said:


> I think conti is riding a wave of brand loyalty that has been undeserved for about 5 - 10 years.


It sure does appear that way.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Anecdotal, operator error, supple, these are all terms used by those to defend the contis.
I've owned various Schwalbe, Michelin, Vittoria and Specialized tires. None of wich failed and some that were a much more supple ride than the Gp tires. My first set the rear side wall failed within a few hundred miles and the front failed around 500 mi. I would not buy again. 
My new bike came with Conti 4 seasons that I think I'll leave on for this winter for base miles then change in the spring.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Migen21;5195230
The Conti 4000 is one of said:


> The problem with this argument is the people who have had failures have also owned and ridden thousands of miles on other tires without failure. And I doubt there are that many more Contis on the road than any other brand.


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## 11spd (Sep 3, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, it's road hazard damage. They are right.
> 
> ...


In bold, why I don't ride 'em.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Oxtox said:


> hey, whatever works for ya...
> 
> I'll be rolling on Conti 4KIIs tomorrow with no worries whatsoever.


Me Too!!! They're great tires!!


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> Yeah sorry I wasn't clear I guess. The Corsa had sidewall cuts. The Specialized Turbo was run o the mill flats running over dry leaves, puddles of water and the dreaded newly paved road.
> 
> I'm with you otherwise. Just throwing out my experience as I think I log more than normal miles than average...


Got ya.


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## Speed_Metal (Feb 9, 2004)

if you're going to throw that tire away, can you send it to me.
I'll pay shipping.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

duriel said:


> I would not ride a tire that normal usage results in catastrophic failure.


Yeah, except that was obviously damage from hitting something on the road, not normal usage resulting in catastrophic failure.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

To complicate matters about the Contis, here's what I've read about them. Here goes, and take it for what it's worth. Don't kill the messenger though!

big UK warehouse online sellers like Wiggle, Ribble, Probike Kit, Merlin, often will have deep discount on Contis. Maybe this is one reason why people keep coming back to them, however hesitant they might be. There were back and forth discussions that in the "user review" section of one of these site (I forget which one), and people were saying that these online sellers were selling really old tires, tires that have been in sitting in storage and showing signs of rotting. Others were saying that it's "B stock" tires, tires that came from batch that didn't pass QC test, but somehow made their ways to these online warehouses (knowingly or unknowingly to the warehouses even).

anyway personally, Contis to me suck for one major reason, they handle not as good as almost all other brands in the same price range. Contis have a few things going for them though:
1. they're on sale frequently
2. their middle section tread does last long, good if all you do is drone on flat road
3. good rolling resistance

but all these positives means jack to me if it's a poor handler, and a harsh ride. I'm thinking that the properties that give them good rolling resistance and longevity also necessarily make them poor handler and poor ride quality.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

11spd said:


> In bold, why I don't ride 'em.


Nailed it.

I wonder how many eXtreme Brand Loyal Conti customers have ever tried a different bike tire, even for just one tire change.

I was eXtreme Brand Loyal Conti GP series for years and years, until I tried a set of vred fortezza tri-comps on a whim. I've never even considered going back to conti GP series.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Kerry Irons said:


> Yeah, except that was obviously damage from hitting something on the road, not normal usage resulting in catastrophic failure.


If he was normally riding in the road and he hit something, and he didn't remember hitting anything, I would consider all of that normal usage. And the tire failed.

Now, if he was normally riding in the road and he hit a knife or big sharp iron bar or something that he remembered, I would consider that abnormal.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

duriel said:


> If he was normally riding in the road and he hit something, and he didn't remember hitting anything, I would consider all of that normal usage. And the tire failed.
> 
> Now, if he was normally riding in the road and he hit a knife or big sharp iron bar or something that he remembered, I would consider that abnormal.


Ditto. The last thing I want to worry about on a fast descent is looking to identify and avoid every piece of gravel because the sidewall of my tire might fail if it comes in contact with an otherwise-unmemorable piece of gravel.

Potholes? Rocks? Squirrels? Broken road surface? Large sticks? Wet leaves? Broken glass? Roofing nails? Large patches of loose gravel? Yeah, I scan for those and avoid them. But I don't worry about a random piece of gravel destroying the sidewall of any Vreds I've ridden for the past 3 or 4 years.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I cut three of them in about 100 miles.
> I've never cut a Vittoria Pave or Corsa in 50,000 miles.
> 
> Some say those tires suck because of the sidewalls. Others say it's just bad luck and it would happen with any tire. You can guess which way I feel based on my experience.


Corsa? Yeah right. Most fragile tire I've ever used. Fit very loose on the rims too. Both front and rear tires died due to cuts before the tread wore out.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

There was also talk in past discussion about the 4K that maybe the SII version was better, improved for sidewall cuts. I use the 4KSII tires on the back, and over 15K miles, no issues. Won't use them on the front, though, as flats there are more serious than the rear. And I did have sidewall cuts on the old 4K tires, maybe once or twice, but none in maybe 3-4 years now on the SII. 

I run Open Corsas on front. Both tires wear out about the same that way. No problems with the Corsas up front either, and I do agree they have thicker/better sidewalls than the 4KSII. Makes me feel better on 40 MPH descents. 
I get the usual (occasional) flats from fine wires, glass, and so on, but usually in the center tread.

Also use the Rubino pro III on the rear, especially in winter, which has a LOT of tread to start, but wears about the same as the 4KSII for me. These are also pretty rugged tires, a little less supple than the Corsa or 4K, but cheaper, especially when they were being blown out to make the way for graphene versions. 

My front and rear tires don't have to match.


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## mtrac (Sep 23, 2013)

SPlKE said:


> When I hear horror stories like sidewall blowouts (well documented) at 40 mph, but then the person says "I'll continue to ride conti GP 4000" tires, I just scratch my head.


I became a member of the 4000 cult after formerly riding either OEM or whatever was on sale at Nashbar. The first time I put them on it was like getting a new bike. I tolerate flats -- arguably, no worse than other brands -- because I like them so much. My two-plus season tire. 

Best advice, as MMsRepBike notes, is to stay out of the gravel if possible. All kinds of crap lurking in there. I also inspect my tires frequently and replace them if they have a sidewall cut. I've had one blowout with a Conti, and that was from me trying to nurse an obviously worn tire along.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

was just reading some reviews on the BTDirect site...

saw some posts about Schwalbe ONEs having sidewall tears and bulges. oh noes...! another German tire maker that can't make decent products.

and fwiw, with ~250 reviews, the 5-star vs 1- or 2-star ratings for Conti 4Ks runs about 9:1.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

mtrac said:


> I became a member of the 4000 cult after formerly riding either OEM or whatever was on sale at Nashbar. The first time I put them on it was like getting a new bike. I tolerate flats -- arguably, no worse than other brands -- because I like them so much. My two-plus season tire.
> 
> Best advice, as MMsRepBike notes, is to stay out of the gravel if possible. All kinds of crap lurking in there. I also inspect my tires frequently and replace them if they have a sidewall cut. I've had one blowout with a Conti, and that was from me trying to nurse an obviously worn tire along.


I agree on staying out of the gravel with the 4000S tires. I thought the 4 Seasons were more durable but someone said no so I have to do some research on them. Gatorskins for sure would be OK for gravel.


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## askmass (Sep 28, 2009)

T K said:


> ...And I doubt there are that many more Contis on the road than any other brand.


On BRAG this past summer, out of hundreds and hundreds of bikes seen the Conti 4000 was on what appeared to be almost 7 out of every 10.

The range and style of bikes were great, as were the riders and where they reside.

I've ridden most everything at one time or another and have my opinions but like it or not, it's undisputed, the GP 4000 is extremely popular and clearly the best selling tire going today.


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## Soaring Vulture (Jun 25, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I cut three of them in about 100 miles.
> I've never cut a Vittoria Pave or Corsa in 50,000 miles.
> 
> Some say those tires suck because of the sidewalls. Others say it's just bad luck and it would happen with any tire. You can guess which way I feel based on my experience.


 I got a slow leak sidewall cut in a relatively old Vittoria Corsa. I could feel something brushing my leg every time the wheel went around; I finally figured out it was the air going out of my rear tire. Fortunately, one of the guys I was riding with had a Park tire boot which got me home.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> people were saying that these online sellers were selling really old tires, tires that have been in sitting in storage and showing signs of rotting. Others were saying that it's "B stock" tires, tires that came from batch that didn't pass QC test, but somehow made their ways to these online warehouses (knowingly or unknowingly to the warehouses even).


Given that Conti has updated the sidewall graphics pretty much every year, it would be painfully obvious is sellers were pushing "way-old" tires. And they would indeed have to be "way-old" and stored badly in order for "tire rot" to have begun. 

The chances that large numbers of defective tires have somehow been spirited out of Conti's plants and made it into retail channels beggars the imagination.

Conti tires are very popular, and as a result there are more reports of tire failure about Conti tires than any other. What no one has ever presented is some factual information showing that they are somehow fragile and unreliable. Anecdotes are not data. The fact that there are large numbers of reports of people putting lots of miles on Conti tires with zero issues are just as persuasive as reports of fragile sidewalls.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Kerry Irons said:


> Conti tires are very popular, and as a result there are more reports of tire failure about Conti tires than any other. What no one has ever presented is some factual information showing that they are somehow fragile and unreliable. Anecdotes are not data. The fact that there are large numbers of reports of people putting lots of miles on Conti tires with zero issues are just as persuasive as reports of fragile sidewalls.


This hits the nail on the head. Contis have to be one of the most commonly used tire brands. So even if a tiny percentage really do have some kind of defect, they might appear to have problems when in fact, they well could be better on average than other brands like Vittoria. People with bad experiences tend to ***** about it on the internet. People that have good experiences tend not to write about it. 

The idea that any successful manufacturer would knowingly let old or defective product onto the market place, thereby injuring it's reputation, just to make a few bucks is laughable.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

There could be other factors involved too - making problem more likely or less likely. Factors like tire pressure and wheel width. Perhaps narrow rims with large tires run at lower pressure will let more tire sidewall "hang out", making it easier to be cut than on a wide rim with less light bulb effect? Or maybe narrow rims and high pressures are the problem? I guess one could use a piece of sharp gravel and experiment on old tires.


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Those 4ksii users fortunate enough to escape the effects of a sidewall slit could try an experiment: 
before chucking your worn out tire in the trash, take a sharp knife and cut a tiny slit in the sidewall; 
then try to expand the tear further by pulling on either side. 
You will see it rips rather easily, as the tire lacks a good cross-meshing of fibers. 
In my opinion, this brittle nature of the sidewalls seems to contribute to their somewhat harsh ride.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> It's pretty much a fact the side walls cut easy on this tire compared to others.
> 
> When I blew out 3 in 100 miles (nice anecdote there), I saved the last one and did some experimenting with it but trying to cut the side wall by hand compared to some other Vittoria Corsas I had laying around.
> The side walls are extremely thin and cut easy. That's a fact not an anecdote.


Do you have any experience with the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+? I'm considering trying these? They look like a good compromise between puncture resistance and at the same time being a grippy and supple tire at 150TPI.


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## Veloptuous (Oct 13, 2017)

I’ve had a similar side wall blow out on Gator Skins year back. Fortunately, I was at the bottom of a decent and going straight so I maintained control until I stopped. Ended up using part of a Popsicle stick I found on the side of the road placed on the inside of the tire to keep the tube from ballooning out the hole/gash so I could get it home. That’s the only issue I have ha with Continentals thus far.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

pmf said:


> This hits the nail on the head. Contis have to be one of the most commonly used tire brands. So even if a tiny percentage really do have some kind of defect, they might appear to have problems when in fact, they well could be better on average than other brands like Vittoria. People with bad experiences tend to ***** about it on the internet. People that have good experiences tend not to write about it.


Actually what I did before commenting on the internet is test them compared to Vittoria side walls by seeing how many pounds of pressure it took to cut each with a knife point. It's MUCH easier to cut conti side walls was my finding.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

pmf said:


> This hits the nail on the head. Contis have to be one of the most commonly used tire brands. So even if a tiny percentage really do have some kind of defect, they might appear to have problems when in fact, they well could be better on average than other brands like Vittoria. People with bad experiences tend to ***** about it on the internet. People that have good experiences tend not to write about it.
> 
> The idea that any successful manufacturer would knowingly let old or defective product onto the market place, thereby injuring it's reputation, just to make a few bucks is laughable.


I don't recall anybody accusing conti of corporate malfeasance just to make a few bucks. 

In my opinion -- after riding Conti GP series tires all the way back to the 3000 series up through the 4000-II series -- conti makes an inferior product, when compared to the vreds and michelins I've ridden since ditching the conti GP series tires a few years ago.

I see lots of conti GP 4000 tire riders who have never ridden any other tire. It's pretty difficult to fathom that kind of brand loyalty, especially from some of the posters on this thread who have had more than one dangerous sidewall blowouts on contis, but for some reason that's unfathomable to me, they continue to buy them.

There's brand loyal, which I understand to a point... and then there's the textbook definition of crazy.

To all riders who have never ridden on anything but conti GP series tires (including a few I ride with locally)... how do you know they're "the best" unless you've ridden tires of the same type and price?


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

SPlKE said:


> I see lots of conti GP 4000 tire riders who have never ridden any other tire.


truly fascinating that you're compiling this kind of data about what tires other people ride...


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

With a lot of people saying that Conti tires are one of the most if not the most popular tires, thus there is a higher chance of hearing about them fail.

Do we have any statistical figures on Conti's popularity then? If no, then it's also anecdotal to say that Contis fail more due to their popularity.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Oxtox said:


> truly fascinating that you're compiling this kind of data about what tires other people ride...


I'm not "compiling" anything beyond what I've seen over time on this forum, and in my personal riding history... my own, and with my long-time riding buddies.

Reread my post. You'll see that there's no "compiling" (whatever that means) going on. Just my personal observations, from my personal life.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> I see lots of conti GP 4000 tire riders who have never ridden any other tire. It's pretty difficult to fathom that kind of brand loyalty, especially from some of the posters on this thread who have had more than one dangerous sidewall blowouts on contis, but for some reason that's unfathomable to me, they continue to buy them.
> 
> There's brand loyal, which I understand to a point... and then there's the textbook definition of crazy.


I think this explains this behavior in a nutshell:


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## BlazingPedals (Apr 4, 2013)

Oxtox said:


> another German tire maker that can't make decent products.


That seems a bit unfair. 4000Ss and Ones are racing tires. Rolling resistance and durability are two mutually-exclusive goals, and racing tires tend to pursue lower rolling resistance. Thin sidewalls are what give them the low rolling resistance. Putting more material in the sidewalls will make them more durable but less supple. If you expect your tires to withstand gravel and debris, get touring tires.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

BlazingPedals said:


> That seems a bit unfair. 4000Ss and Ones are racing tires. Rolling resistance and durability are two mutually-exclusive goals, and racing tires tend to pursue lower rolling resistance. Thin sidewalls are what give them the low rolling resistance. Putting more material in the sidewalls will make them more durable but less supple. If you expect your tires to withstand gravel and debris, get touring tires.


it wasn't 'unfair'...it was sarcasm.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> I see lots of conti GP 4000 tire riders who have never ridden any other tire. It's pretty difficult to fathom that kind of brand loyalty, especially from some of the posters on this thread who have had more than one dangerous sidewall blowouts on contis, but for some reason that's unfathomable to me, they continue to buy them. There's brand loyal, which I understand to a point... and then there's the textbook definition of crazy. To all riders who have never ridden on anything but conti GP series tires (including a few I ride with locally)... how do you know they're "the best" unless you've ridden tires of the same type and price?


_That’s BS!!! Do you actually believe that we should throw our Conti’s in the trash because an unknown source posted a potential issue with a tire and states that he does not know the exact failure mechanism? WTF? To make matters worse you arrogantly state that most buyers don’t have the depth of experience to make a sound choice. How in the world do you get a hat on a head that large? _


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

BlazingPedals said:


> If you expect your tires to withstand gravel and debris, get touring tires.


This is just plain silly. It doesn't have to be all one or the other, fast rolling supple tires can be had without resorting to "touring tires". At one time maybe, but there have been advancements in tire technology allowing a more flat resistant supple tire to negate the need for truck tires. Also sidewalls don't have to be so fragile to create a supple tire that scuffing a stone will tear a hole in it, manufacturers have come a long way since offering performance tires in cotton or silk.

Also larger volume and lower pressure go a way in improving flat resistance. A 25mm tire has more flat resistance than a 23 and a 28 more than a 25, and so on. A low pressure supple tire allows the tire to roll over the debris where the higher pressure tire will mash the debris into the tread.


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## CycloPat (Apr 12, 2015)

Mine was a minor sidewall gash, relatively new tire, going fast and bumping rear wheel on a big rock. It also chewed through the tube and deflated quickly. This year i've put on 7500km before noticing similar (and still minor) damage on rear tire.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

n2deep said:


> _That’s BS!!! Do you actually believe that we should throw our Conti’s in the trash because an unknown source posted a potential issue with a tire and states that he does not know the exact failure mechanism? WTF? To make matters worse you arrogantly state that most buyers don’t have the depth of experience to make a sound choice. How in the world do you get a hat on a head that large? _


Since you didn't bother to read the thread, I'll recap what I've said several times in this thread: I've ridden Conti GP-series tires all the way back to the 3000 series, and also Conti GP-Supersonics for racedays.

I was totally brand loyal right up through the latest GP-4000 series tires about two years ago when I decided, on a whim, to try some Vred fortezza and tri-comp tires.

Much to my Conti GP brand loyal surprise, I liked the Vreds much better -- they wear better, they flat a lot less often, but most of all they let me corner more aggressively than I ever could with any Conti tires in any configuration, including the Supersonics.

Large head? No. Huge number of fast and challenging road miles on Conti GP series tires. Tried Vreds. Like Vreds much better.

There's probably still time for you to enroll in the next semester at The School For Kids That Don't Read Good.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

n2deep said:


> _That’s BS!!! Do you actually believe that we should throw our Conti’s in the trash because* an unknown source* posted a potential issue with a tire and states that he does not know the exact failure mechanism? WTF? To make matters worse you arrogantly state that most buyers don’t have the depth of experience to make a sound choice. How in the world do you get a hat on a head that large? _


If you read the whole thread, you will see a few "unknown sources" that had issues with this tire.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

Does Conti Deserve the Love? No. Yes. - Slowtwitch.com




aclinjury said:


> With a lot of people saying that Conti tires are one of the most if not the most popular tires, thus there is a higher chance of hearing about them fail.
> 
> Do we have any statistical figures on Conti's popularity then? If no, then it's also anecdotal to say that Contis fail more due to their popularity.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> There's probably still time for you to enroll in the next semester at The School For Kids That Don't Read Good.





Lombard said:


> If you read the whole thread, you will see a few "unknown sources" that had issues with this tire.


No problems with comprehension here, however, if we take the class together I'll buy the first beer!! (It's still BS!!!)


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

Darn, had this sidewall thing happen last weekend. I don't remember hitting anything but it blew when I was riding upright straight not leaning into a corner or anything.


But the cut is up on the sidewall so I know it had nothing to do with the rim. Nice clean little cut and some shredded thread (not much) around the hole.

It was my second ride on the new GP4000 II so had only about 60 miles on it when it happened.

I'll chalk it up to maybe I hit something and didn't realize it as I have 5 more Conti's in my personal stash and have used nothing but this tire (GP4000, 3000, and 2000's) over the years and never had a sidewall blowout being a heavy rider doing 3000-7000 miles per year.

1 out of 50 (?) ain't going to break the bank. Not that it was a sidewall failure, a cut by debris is my guess.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

The site below tests the better road tires, not only for rolling resistance, but also tread, sidewall thickness and puncture resistance. Some good info, especially since the same setup is used for all tests. Take a look at the Rubino Pro III versus the new Rubino Pro G+, apparently newer ain't always better. The 4KSII does pretty well in tests, including sidewall puncture. 
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/continental-grand-prix-4000s-ii-2014


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

CycloPat said:


> Mine was a minor sidewall gash, relatively new tire, going fast and bumping rear wheel on a big rock. It also chewed through the tube and deflated quickly. This year i've put on 7500km before noticing similar (and still minor) damage on rear tire.


you're describing road hazard damage, which can happen to any tire.

what some people are claiming is that Conti 4KIIs are inherently unsafe due to spontaneous sidewall failures not related to road hazards.

they subsequently want others to dislike and not use this tire. if riders don't abide by their cautionary comments, they're labeled as 'crazy'...

hth.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

n2deep said:


> No problems with comprehension here, however, if we take the class together I'll buy the first beer!! (It's still BS!!!)


It's not BS! 

In case you didn't know, my motto is: _Keepin' It Real_. So that's me. _Keepin' It Real_ about the GP-4000 tires spontaneously exploding more than carbon fiber bikes, which is like all the time.


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## CycloPat (Apr 12, 2015)

I guess i should've been clearer: "i didn't experience anything as extreme as a blowout". I've been riding continental tires for the past 5 years and in my experience they have been quite safe.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> I agree on staying out of the gravel with the 4000S tires. I thought the 4 Seasons were more durable but someone said no so I have to do some research on them. Gatorskins for sure would be OK for gravel.


Yep. Gatorskins wear like iron and ride like iron - horrible, horrible tire! The 4Seasons are what you want if you want something like a 4KII. More durable, only a couple of grams heavier with similar (same?) thread-count and similar or same tread compound. I run the 4Seasons in the winter, and I don't think I've ever had a flat with them and certainly no spontaneous sidewall failures. I honestly can't tell the difference between them.


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## Oldbikah (Apr 16, 2015)

Like several have said, you can hole any tire if you don't pay attention to the road. I went pretty much brain dead on a long hot ride a couple of years ago and flipped a small piece of metal debris with my front tire that stood up and sliced the sidewall on the rear tire. It was a fairly new Gatorskin that went flat. I've ridden thousands of puncture free miles with GP 4000s II here in Maine, where the road sides are rough, there's plenty of small rocks all over the place and other bits of sharp garbage near the curbs. 

GP 4000s II have proven to be extremely good bike tires that make for great ride and feel, plus they're light weight, too, as far as I'm concerned. Keep an eye out for sharp stuff on the roads.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Do you have any experience with the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+? I'm considering trying these? They look like a good compromise between puncture resistance and at the same time being a grippy and supple tire at 150TPI.


Big cup of NOPE! The Corsa G+ is TERRIBLE when it comes to durability. I tried them for about 6 months. The ride is sublime with latex tubes, but I got tired of throwing away perfectly good $80 tires that had tread and/or sidewall cuts in them. Literally 6 or 8 in that 6 months. Went back to Conti GP4KIIs, and back to my normal number of flats - a couple or 3 in 9-10,000 miles of riding per year.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Actually what I did before commenting on the internet is test them compared to Vittoria side walls by seeing how many pounds of pressure it took to cut each with a knife point. It's MUCH easier to cut conti side walls was my finding.


What kind of test rig did you use to measure the cut pressure and what was your sample size? AKA yet another anecdote.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

SPlKE said:


> Since you didn't bother to read the thread, I'll recap what I've said several times in this thread: I've ridden Conti GP-series tires all the way back to the 3000 series, and also Conti GP-Supersonics for racedays.
> 
> I was totally brand loyal right up through the latest GP-4000 series tires about two years ago when I decided, on a whim, to try some Vred fortezza and tri-comp tires.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity... do you routinely slide out in corners so that you can tell that the Vreds allow you to corner "more aggressively"? Or maybe you did some skid-pad testing like they do with vehicles and auto tires???


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Do you have any experience with the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+? I'm considering trying these? They look like a good compromise between puncture resistance and at the same time being a grippy and supple tire at 150TPI.


Try the Vred Fortezza TriComp or Senso's. I've put thousands of miles on the TriComps on two different bikes in both 23 and 25mm and am trying to count my flats but can only remember three, and one of those was a dry wall screw that went in one side and poked through the other. A garden hose wouldn't have stood up to that. There were probably a couple of more flats in there, but I can't remember having them. Maybe there weren't anymore, can't say one way or the other honestly. I do know that I retired one with an inch of cord showing and it never flatted.

And they ride nice.


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## Rogus (Nov 10, 2010)

On today's ride I hit something and damaged the sidewall of a Michelin Power Endurance. It was dark and the paceline didn't point out any hazard. Booted it, rode home and grabbed my spare which turned out to be a slightly used 4000s II. I had stopped using it after hitting a rock and subsequently having a front tire sidewall blowout a few miles later. Put the rear away as a spare. Forgot I had a 4000s II as my spare. Putting it on reminded me of this thread.

This proves nothing other than just about any tire could end up having sidewall damage. One thing was immediately apparent after changing tires. The 4000s II was a much better ride than the Michelin.


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## cobra_kai (Jul 22, 2014)

velodog said:


> Try the Vred Fortezza TriComp or Senso's. I've put thousands of miles on the TriComps on two different bikes in both 23 and 25mm and am trying to count my flats but can only remember three, and one of those was a dry wall screw that went in one side and poked through the other. A garden hose wouldn't have stood up to that. There were probably a couple of more flats in there, but I can't remember having them. Maybe there weren't anymore, can't say one way or the other honestly. I do know that I retired one with an inch of cord showing and it never flatted.
> 
> And they ride nice.


This Senso: https:/www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/vredestein-fortezza-senso-all-weather-2015 ?

Sorry, while I agree there are lots of other tires in the same category as the 4000 that are worth trying like the Michelin Power Competition or Shwalbe Pro one, you couldn't pay me to put on a tire that rolls almost as poorly as a gatorskin and has barely improved puncture resistance over other race tires.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

cobra_kai said:


> This Senso: https:/www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/vredestein-fortezza-senso-all-weather-2015 ?
> 
> Sorry, while I agree there are lots of other tires in the same category as the 4000 that are worth trying like the Michelin Power Competition or Shwalbe Pro one, you couldn't pay me to put on a tire that rolls almost as poorly as a gatorskin and has barely improved puncture resistance over other race tires.


Man, that review doesn't match up with my experience. But I'm still on the Fortezza TriComps that the Senso's have seemed to replace.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

OldChipper said:


> Out of curiosity... do you routinely slide out in corners so that you can tell that the Vreds allow you to corner "more aggressively"? Or maybe you did some skid-pad testing like they do with vehicles and auto tires???


Yes, I do countless skid-pad tests under every conceivable circumstance, with hundreds of different bikes and tires.

Also, my normal training ride has the same curves it's had for the past several decades I've ridden on it, so I can get a sense of how well different tires handle corners that way. But since it's "anecdotal" it's completely meaningless.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

velodog said:


> Man, that review doesn't match up with my experience. But I'm still on the Fortezza TriComps that the Senso's have seemed to replace.


Ditto. I haven't tried the sensos. I don't buy into all weather tires since I'm a fair weather rider.

I've liked every fortezza and tricomp I've ever bought, especially the fortezza superlite and the tricomp slicks. The high thread count and the three different compounds work for me. Fewer flats, better handling. Tastes great, less filling. Not cheap, though. Unless you get them on sale.

But, since my experience is anecdotal, it is meaningless. According to science, Conti tires are the superbest in every conceivable way. Science!


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

SPlKE said:


> Much to my Conti GP brand loyal surprise, I liked the Vreds much better -- they wear better, they flat a lot less often, but most of all they let me corner more aggressively than I ever could with any Conti tires in any configuration, including the Supersonics.


Better wear generally comes from harder rubber, better cornering generally comes from softer rubber. So... I have to assume they have a harder compound in the center and softer on the shoulders. Which many do. Did they get it right?

Do you notice ANY change in feel when transitioning to/from a turn on those tires? This has always been something I want to avoid in a tire

Do you notice any issues with braking, given the harder/better wearing center rubber?

How do they act when they break loose? Same as contis, more "all at once" than contis, or more warning given than contis?

I like contis, and generally pick them up on deep sale with ease, given the popularity. But I'm willing to give other tires a go, and will look into Vreds next time I shoe the bike up.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

OldChipper said:


> What kind of test rig did you use to measure the cut pressure and what was your sample size? AKA yet another anecdote.


Why ask if you've already determined it's 'yet another anecdote'?

Whatever dude. It's a conspiracy. Russian bots are attacking your tire choice on the internet. Go with that if you want.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> Better wear generally comes from harder rubber, better cornering generally comes from softer rubber. So... *I have to assume they have a harder compound in the center and softer on the shoulders.* Which many do. Did they get it right?
> 
> Do you notice ANY change in feel when transitioning to/from a turn on those tires? This has always been something I want to avoid in a tire
> 
> ...


Vred "tricomp" refers to the what I bolded in your post above.

I never noticed any difference in braking between the vred fortezza and tricomp tires and GP-4000 tires. The grabbiest tires I ever rode were GP Supersonics on a hot day. I actually got a snakebite flat on the front when I braked hard for a clueless pedestrian who j-walked out from between two parked SUVs.

As for the tread-slippage/breakaway-threshold in tight fast turns, the main difference with the vreds is that they "feel" stickier when I have to lean into the turn at a low angle. I put "feel" in quotes because I have no science like a skid-pad test to back that up. In the same tight curves I've done countless times on my regular training ride, I've never had to ease up mid turn because I sensed ("felt" correctly or even incorrectly) an impending slide with the Vreds. I have felt that with the GP tires, except the Supersonics which are raceday only tires.


Edit to add:

All that said, I keep my eye out for the best deal on the latest greatest conti GP tires. I plan to give em another go one of these days.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

SPlKE said:


> In the same tight curves I've done countless times on my regular training ride, I've never had to ease up mid turn because I sensed ("felt" correctly or even incorrectly) an impending slide with the Vreds. I have felt that with the GP tires, except the Supersonics which are raceday only tires.


Thanks for sharing your experience. I found it anecdotally informative.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DeepV said:


> Darn, had this sidewall thing happen last weekend. I don't remember hitting anything but it blew when I was riding upright straight not leaning into a corner or anything.
> 
> 
> But the cut is up on the sidewall so I know it had nothing to do with the rim. Nice clean little cut and some shredded thread (not much) around the hole.
> ...


Why am I having a Harvey Weinstein "me too" feeling about this thread?


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

QuiQuaeQuod said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience. I found it anecdotally informative.



Another anecdotal bit of info! 

Local road is a 20 mile climb with 5,000 ft gain meaning a 20 mile descent in twisty winding tight switchback roads anywhere from 25-40 miles per hour.

Glendora Mtn Rd. Any of the local will tell you that you better have good tires. Been riding it since 1998 with the Continental tires. I want to say back then it was just the Grand Prix that was the sheot! Then the GP2000, GP3000 then the GP4000.

In the 20 years I have been riding this road, I have never once felt the sidewall of a Continental give or flex. :thumbsup:

20 miles at 25-40 mph on this is a pretty good test.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

cobra_kai said:


> Does Conti Deserve the Love? No. Yes. - Slowtwitch.com


very interesting stats, but I would expect a triathlon site such as Slowtwitch to have a higher number of users liking the Gontis since the Contis are often on sale and it has good rolling resistance number, which I'd imagine is important for a discipline such as tri where the main purpose is to go straight as fast as you can with low demand for handling. It's like asking Slowtwitch users if they use aero wheels, and get a 100% reply that they do. But this doesn't mean aero wheels are used by most cyclists.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DeepV said:


> Another anecdotal bit of info!
> 
> Local road is a 20 mile climb with 5,000 ft gain meaning a 20 mile descent in twisty winding tight switchback roads anywhere from 25-40 miles per hour.
> 
> ...


Most prudent people that I know tend to replace their tires a bit early, as soon as they see a good sign of threads starting to come apart. I certainly replace my tires sooner than I would be if I was riding on the flat. The Contis do show these sign, and if you replace them, you're good. 

Personally, I have seen my various brand new front tires from both GP4000s and Pro4s exhibit sign of shearing (where the inner cords start to show thru the sidewall rubber) in as few as 2 mountain rides and wicked descents (down Mt. Baldy & Mt Wilson), the Pro4s just last a bit longer. On the bike I'm using for the mountains, the front tire almost never gets a chance to wear out in the middle as I replace it when I see their sidewalls start to shred and I'm not comfortable rididng them. The good thing is that there are a few cyclist neighbors of mine who will gladly take them off my hands (they're more flatlanders and they're willing to use no problem).

What I find interesting is that my Vittoria Corsa tubular never shears like that. Yes Vittorias don't last long, puncture easily, but they don't shear like Contis and some other tires. Something to do with construction Vitorria uses?


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

aclinjury said:


> Personally, I have seen my various brand new front tires from both GP4000s and Pro4s exhibit sign of shearing (where the inner cords start to show thru the sidewall rubber) in as few as 2 mountain rides and wicked descents (down Mt. Baldy & Mt Wilson), the Pro4s just last a bit longer.


I live at the bottom of Baldy and the road makes me nervous on the descent with al the sharp rocks. I keep my eyes open!

I've done GMR/GRR rides many many times over the last 20 years no problem with the Conti's but when I go up, I make sure my tires are in good condition.

I have tried other tires over the years. Michelin tires were too soft and wore out quickly. I'm not a lightweight rider so maybe that has something to do with it.

On a Specialized S-Works, I did a ride up and down to the village on GMR/GRR. When I got to the bottom, I was missing a 3 inch chunk of rubber. Never again, that sucker was $60 back in 2005, flatted on the first ride and lost a chunk of rubber on the third ride.

I went up GMR with a new tire per rec on a bike forum. IRC brand. Felt thumping on the way down. Front tire snaked (heat blisters), practically crawled down. Ordered 2 online, both did the same so seller sent me replacements of a different brand. Top brand but didn't like it either.

Use Seca for a few years. Good tire, good price but after 3 years or so, they started splitting down the center of the tread. 2 tires in a row, Wow!

Used Vitorria (sp?) with no problems but the Conti's were more available so I stuck with them. I may try Vitorria again just to check them out. :thumbsup:

Now that I can get Conti's online at a good price, I use them. Heck, I order 4 at a time. Currently still have 5 in my stash! 

But yes, watch them tires with the mountain descents! Learned my lesson descending the twisties of Carbon Cyn. I knew my tire was worn but I figured one more ride. Hot summer day, my tire went soft on new pavement. Fishtailed all over the road, luckily traffic saw me and stopped or I'd be dead right now. Tacoed rear wheel and not sure how but I didn't go down. Very frightening experience that taught me my life was not worth the price of a new tire. :yikes:


You don't play games with tires on the Baldy Rd descent.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> very interesting stats, but I would expect a triathlon site such as Slowtwitch to have a higher number of users liking the Gontis since the Contis are often on sale and it has good rolling resistance number, which I'd imagine is important for a discipline such as tri where the main purpose is to go straight as fast as you can with low demand for handling. It's like asking Slowtwitch users if they use aero wheels, and get a 100% reply that they do. But this doesn't mean aero wheels are used by most cyclists.


The GP4K S II is unintentionally one of the most aero tires, so more reason for triathletes to love them. The only other family of tires I can think of with an intentionally "sharper" profile is the Panaracer Race Evo3s, and that's done primarily to reduce the contact patch (rolling resistance, not aero drag.)


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

DeepV said:


> You don't play games with tires on the Baldy Rd descent.


That's honestly a fairly pedestrian switchback (especially while descending on the outside.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqKjXg1Gru0

Note the car tire skid marks, the radius, the grade, the road surface and the fact that you're taking the inside lane on the descent.

I have nothing bad to say about the rolling resistance and cornering grip of GP4K S IIs. For between $40-50, they are a decent value too. However I am one of the many, many people who have not had good luck with sidewalls being torn up by small pebbles, cracks in pavement, etc. I try to be mindful of these road hazards, but it's not really humanly possible to avoid every single one.

I agree with aclinjury about Vittorias in general. My Corsa G+ never got sidewall cuts even with obsessive cleaning of the gumwalls. The corespun casing seems reasonably thick on the sides. Likewise, I didn't stick with them because 1) the tread lasts maybe 1300mi with how and where I ride, 2) I went tubeless. Yes the Corsa Speeds are tubeless, but I'm fairly positive the tread on those would wear down in 500-600mi...they're truly race-day tires, and honestly they're probably TT-only tires.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

ceugene said:


> That's honestly a fairly pedestrian switchback (especially while descending on the outside.)


What is the meaning of "fairly pedestrian" ?


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

DeepV said:


> What is the meaning of "fairly pedestrian" ?


Ordinary. Common. Unremakable. Even a set of Gator Hardshells could tackle that ‘hairpin’ just fine.


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

I had a really bad run w/ the 4000IIS tires -all sidewall issues, all purchased at different times from different places. After all that I decided they were too fragile for my roads.

Switched to kenda kaliente tires and then kenda valkyrie tires and have had 2 flats in the past 2 years - and that's riding year round on crappy NY/CT/MA roads.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

ceugene said:


> Ordinary. Common. Unremakable. Even a set of Gator Hardshells could tackle that ‘hairpin’ just fine.


Oh no you didn't, that is a MAJOR TURN when you are going 45MPH!!!!


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

ceugene said:


> Ordinary. Common. Unremakable. Even a set of Gator Hardshells could tackle that ‘hairpin’ just fine.



That's what I was thinking you meant. Funny! Common, the queen stage of Amgen Tour of California.

There are 10 of these in a row, within 2 miles gaining 1,000 ft. The pros look like the guy in your video climbing these switchbacks. That's not to mention the 20 or 30 below on Glendora Mtn Rd.

I guarantee you, there is nothing common about climbing or descending Mt. Baldy.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

duriel said:


> Oh no you didn't, that is a MAJOR TURN when you are going 45MPH!!!!



I guess he has never done Mt Baldy. Within 2 miles, there are 10 like this. How someone might think you always take the turns in the outside lane is funny.

Descending Mt Baldy and GMR (which is part of Mt Baldy), flying down 7000+ feet is no joke. :hand:


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

I was mostly wondering why you chose that photo in particular.

Baldy is epic in length, but you posted a photo of one boring sweeping hairpin. Length doesn't challenge tire compounds or sidewalls. Several of those switchbacks in a row doesn't change the difficulty factor. I'll admit you mentioned random rocks...yes that is the reality of most California mountain descents, and just another reason why I would never go back to GP4Ks or really any other tubed tire. I want the security of tubeless in front, where even in the case of rapid pressure loss, the bead stays locked in place. On the other hand, those corners aren't the ones that will have rocky debris...it's the sweeping right-handers along the edge of the hillside that get the rocks and loose dirt.

Also as wide as that turn is, you or duriel are not doing it at 45mph...unless you can prove otherwise. Corners that allow for 45mph just prove my point...not remotely challenging for most tires.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

ceugene said:


> Also as wide as that turn is, you or duriel are not doing it at 45mph...unless you can prove otherwise. Corners that allow for 45mph just prove my point...not remotely challenging for most tires.


So you are saying that one would not brake in that turn you posted in the video?

Actually that turn you posted would be even easier as one would brake before that turn. Let's not get silly here. That turn would be just as easy unless you would take it at 45 as well.

No, I would not do my switchback at 45, nor would I do your switchback at 45. Don;t make it a wang slinging contest.

My original statement was that one would not play games using bad tires on Baldy rd. Not sure why you want to sling wangs as there was nothing wrong with my comments seeing as there are also sharp rocks along the way as I have stated earlier as well. A steep section on Baldy straightaway where one can easily hit 50 mph.

So my comment was original, not swinging wangers. Use good tires on Baldy.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

ceugene said:


> On the other hand, those corners aren't the ones that will have rocky debris...it's the sweeping right-handers along the edge of the hillside that get the rocks and loose dirt.
> .


I'm guessing you don't know what you are talking about after that comment.

There are plenty switchbacks opposite side of the mountain side that have rocks and sand. I've witnessed riders crash there. Glendora Mtn Rd, lower section of Mt. Baldy.

Any local will tell you that you don't know what you're talking about.

There are shoulders on the ride side, away from the mountain side that slope inward toward the mountain.

I'm convinced now, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Mt Baldy roads or you're being silly.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

DeepV said:


> So you are saying that one would not brake in that turn you posted in the video?
> 
> Actually that turn you posted would be even easier as one would brake before that turn. Let's not get silly here. That turn would be just as easy unless you would take it at 45 as well.


We're braking into both turns, but the one in my video is over 20% on the inside lane with rough pavement. It's a turn where obviously four-wheeled vehicles lose grip. I guess what I was trying to point out is that if you're going to proselytize about the need to run GREAT tires, use the most extreme example. Length and number of turns doesn't matter. Severity is the key. Each of the longest local climbs has hundreds of turns, but the ones that challenge my tires the most are those 3-5mi short residential roads up medium sized hills.

As for where tire performance matters, straight line grip under braking isn't something I worry about too much. Cornering grip is. Obviously you'd be braking before entering either hairpin, but where good tires shine is against rough pavement where suppleness matters, in sharp off-camber corners where compound matters. Straight-line grip after a point is just robbing us of speed after all.

Oh and since you're SoCal based, I'll say something like Deer Creek in the Malibu area is where my tires get tested. It's not very twisty, but all the chipseal and the constant 12% is one of the few examples where straight-line grip actually became a thought that crossed my mind. Consequently I also ruined a brand new set of IRC Formula Pro Light tubeless on that road 4 weeks ago. I strongly believe that tire failure to be a result of defective construction though.




DeepV said:


> I'm guessing you don't know what you are talking about after that comment.





DeepV said:


> There are plenty switchbacks opposite side of the mountain side that have rocks and sand. I've witnessed riders crash there. Glendora Mtn Rd, lower section of Mt. Baldy.
> 
> Any local will tell you that you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> ...




Where rocks fall is pretty straight-forward. In your photo, most rocks would be strewn in entrance to the turn and before. In a mirror image, rocks would be strewn in the in the lane going uphill...generally. On roads up here like Hamilton, Tam and Diablo, it's usually those right-handers that hug the side of the mountain where you're maintaining 30-35mph that I worry about rocks.

Plenty of rocks on the descent portions of Mt. Ham in this video for example...all on right-handers, none on the switchbacks.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

DeepV said:


> What is the meaning of "fairly pedestrian" ?


It means "not 1000% pedestrian" or "less than 1000% pedestrian."


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

ceugene said:


> We're braking into both turns, but the one in my video is over 20% on the inside lane with rough pavement. It's a turn where obviously four-wheeled vehicles lose grip. I guess what I was trying to point out is that if you're going to proselytize about the need to run GREAT tires, use the most extreme example.
> 
> A
> 
> s for where tire performance matters, straight line grip under braking isn't something I worry about too much. Cornering grip is. Obviously you'd be braking before entering either hairpin, but where good tires shine is against rough pavement where suppleness matters, in sharp off-camber corners where compound matters. Straight-line grip after a point is just robbing us of speed after all.


20% ??? You're thinking your wanger looks bigger in videos than it does in pics. 10 switchbacks in 1.5 miles.

Common sense would tell you half are against the mountain side. 

I never said "great tires". Another imaginary voice in your head. I said I once did a descent on a worn tire, mistake! Doing Baldy, one does not play games with tires.

Where do you get this stuff? 20%-19% Big difference you say? ut:


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

ceugene said:


> Plenty of rocks on the descent portions of Mt. Ham in this video for example...all on right-handers, none on the switchbacks.


You put too much faith in videos I see. Your 20% is not much different from my 19%.

Not sure what kind of mountain roads you ride, if you do at all, but half are against the mountain so the fact I posted ONE PICTURE" does not show the entire road.

Like I said, common sense will tell you that about half the turns are against the mountain side and half are not.

Also, maybe you have never done a mountain descent, but the turns that are away from the mountain side slope inward so the shoulders lose rocks and sand to the outside of the turns as well.

Would be nice to have Disneyland like descents with no rocks but that is not the way it is over here in the real world. Heck, even the straight sections have rocks on them, BOTH SIDES!!!


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

DeepV said:


> 20% ??? You're thinking your wanger looks bigger in videos than it does in pics. 10 switchbacks in 1.5 miles.
> 
> Common sense would tell you half are against the mountain side.
> 
> ...


I was intentionally being a bit conservative. If you click on the video description, the outside lane is 20% and the inside is almost 40%.

Also perhaps my emphasis was on "great" tires because honestly who just wants to ride "good" tires on epic climbs like the ones we're fortunate enough to ride? What's with at screenshot though?

--

I do climb and descend...a lot. I weigh 137lbs...it's my thing.  I was just in your backyard 4 weeks ago for Phil's Fondo. I broke my scapula while descending in May even!

I linked the Mt. Hamilton video to illustrate where rocks typically lie...almost always on sweeping rights. You have to admit that this is where almost all fallen rocks end up. Dangerous yes, sometimes you don't see them around the bend. My point is they don't coincide with switchbacks in any direction usually due to layout. Perhaps a tangent, but my original reply was just a criticism of that choice of a photo.

If you linked a pic of rocks in the middle of the road, my reaction would have been that of agreement. Anyway, let's agree to move on.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

We all know if one studies every inch of a switchback, we can find some big numbers.

Here is Phil Ligget in his own words, Tour of Calif. Mt Baldy stage 7/ 2012 in video saying the switchbacks hit 30%. 43:00 into the video if you want to look it up yourself.

Closed captions so you can see his words.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

Notorious switchback on lower Baldy roads (GMR). Left turn, notorious for sand and rocks in the road. Just happens when I made the video, it had been cleaned up. I've witnessed other cyclists crash here in the sand and rocks. I also have a friend who crashed on a left turn on GRR away from the mountain side breaking his hip.

There is sand and rocks in left switchbacks away from the mountainside.

This is the turn where many have wiped out. There are rocks along the white line that have been brushed back. Street sweepers up here weekly.

Too many times the sand and rocks have been down to the yellow line. It's a known danger zone.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

What happened? I thought we were arguing about tires.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

DeepV said:


> We all know if one studies every inch of a switchback, we can find some big numbers.
> 
> Here is Phil Ligget in his own words, Tour of Calif. Mt Baldy stage 7/ 2012 in video saying the switchbacks hit 30%. 43:00 into the video if you want to look it up yourself.
> 
> Closed captions so you can see his words.


And has Phil ever been wrong. 
/not caring much about you two measuring twangers but to use Phil as a source does cause more than a giggle.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> It means "not 1000% pedestrian" or "less than 1000% pedestrian."


1000% = 10 times the whole. So this would mean less than 10 times pedestrian?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ceugene said:


> I was intentionally being a bit conservative. If you click on the video description, the outside lane is 20% and *the inside is almost 40%*.
> 
> Also perhaps my emphasis was on "great" tires because honestly who just wants to ride "good" tires on epic climbs like the ones we're fortunate enough to ride? What's with at screenshot though?
> 
> ...


that doesn't anywhere close to being 40%, not even close. Elite Tour pros waver at 30%, regular Tour pros walk (2012 Vuelta) because it's faster! There is no way in hell that that Joe Schmoe cyclist in your video would be able to sit and grind while talking up a 40% slope like that. Cmon man think about it.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> 1000% = 10 times the whole. So this would mean less than 10 times pedestrian?


Unlike you, I'm not hobbled by the so-called "metric" system.

1000% means super, even super-duper in some contexts.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> Unlike you, I'm not hobbled by the so-called "metric" system.
> 
> *1000% means super, even super-duper* in some contexts.


Oh, I get it. You mean like bigly huuuuuuuge??


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

den bakker said:


> And has Phil ever been wrong.
> /not caring much about you two measuring twangers but to use Phil as a source does cause more than a giggle.


That is the point! The guy earlier posted a video of some "nobody" exaggerating a turn to be 40%. Even Phil exaggerates on roads that are nearly the same.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

aclinjury said:


> that doesn't anywhere close to being 40%, not even close. Elite Tour pros waver at 30%, regular Tour pros walk (2012 Vuelta) because it's faster! There is no way in hell that that Joe Schmoe cyclist in your video would be able to sit and grind while talking up a 40% slope like that. Cmon man think about it.


Not to mention, Joe Schmoe is the one who claimed the 40%. 

I do think some cyclists hit a man hole size section of the road that points up for a second then use it to claim a huge grade when in fact, that 40% is probably something one could hop over on foot.

That is why I used the Phil Leggit comment. He says 30% on Baldy Rd. I have ridden Baldy many times and I say 30% for a foot or two in the switchbacks but overall only 15% average for any period of time. And that is the 100 yard section at the top known as the 'bowling alley'. That is where there is a road sign that says 15%.

Even then, that top section still figures into what is only a 11% grade at the top.

Either way, as my original statement, you don't want to use worn tires on this descent.:thumbsup:


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Oh, I get it. You mean like bigly huuuuuuuge??


That's a fairly just-ok definition.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> That's a fairly just-ok definition.


Not a fairly pedestrian definition?


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Not a fairly pedestrian definition?


It's not 1000% fairly pedestrian, if that's what you're asking.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DeepV said:


> Not to mention, Joe Schmoe is the one who claimed the 40%.
> 
> I do think some cyclists hit a man hole size section of the road that points up for a second then use it to claim a huge grade when in fact, that 40% is probably something one could hop over on foot.
> 
> ...


The steepest section on Baldy that register on my Garmin is 22%. This is at one of those right hairpins (as you go up) near the top just before the drop-off into bowling alley. But it's only for like 10-20 meters, that's it. Most of the time it's about 12% like you said. 

On the descent, the sketchiest part is going down bowling alley where it's 15% for over like 500 meters and you can pick up serious speed going into the ensuing sweeper. I'm 120 lbs and I have hit 52 mph coming into this sweeper. Speed is fast, but the scariest part (for me) is if a car on the side parking were to pull out, then it's toast for the cyclist, nothing you can do in that sweeper if you're going 40+ mph and a car pulls out. It's ER room.

I've been Deer Creek like cuegene mentioned. Road on Deer Creek has a lot of chipseals, it's rougher then Baldy, I don't like Deer Creek for this reason. But, Deer Creek doesn't have a lot of cars so you have more wiggle room in not having to negotiate the cars. Baldy has smoother road, which entices you to bomb down fast, and thus in this sense it's more risky on Baldy, IMO.


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## DeepV (Feb 9, 2016)

aclinjury said:


> The steepest section on Baldy that register on my Garmin is 22%. This is at one of those right hairpins (as you go up) near the top just before the drop-off into bowling alley. But it's only for like 10-20 meters, that's it. Most of the time it's about 12% like you said.
> 
> On the descent, the sketchiest part is going down bowling alley where it's 15% for over like 500 meters and you can pick up serious speed going into the ensuing sweeper. I'm 120 lbs and I have hit 52 mph coming into this sweeper. Speed is fast, but the scariest part (for me) is if a car on the side parking were to pull out, then it's toast for the cyclist, nothing you can do in that sweeper if you're going 40+ mph and a car pulls out. It's ER room.
> 
> I've been Deer Creek like cuegene mentioned. Road on Deer Creek has a lot of chipseals, it's rougher then Baldy, I don't like Deer Creek for this reason. But, Deer Creek doesn't have a lot of cars so you have more wiggle room in not having to negotiate the cars. Baldy has smoother road, which entices you to bomb down fast, and thus in this sense it's more risky on Baldy, IMO.


I myself fear more the straight section just before the tunnels descending Baldy. Steep and straight so like you said, you get some speed.

Now that section is full of rocks making it even that much scarier! 

Funny because I once knew a guy who had an aclinjury. We did a cycling forum ride up to Baldy. He hit a crack in the road somewhere above the village. SNAPPED HIS HANDLEBARS!!! on the descent.

He managed to save it by grabbing the stem if I remember correctly. Luckily a taxi cab was driving down Baldy Rd. Saw him then gave him a free ride down the mountain.

There were other factors. He had crashed in a race previously but had his bike inspected at a shop where it was ok'd to ride. Not real clear on why it broke but I bet that had to be a soiled chamois moment!


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> It's not 1000% fairly pedestrian, if that's what you're asking.


How about 500% marginally pedestrian?


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> How about 500% marginally pedestrian?


Come on, man. I'm serious.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> Come on, man. I'm serious.


I never said you weren't. We're very serious here on RBR.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> I never said you weren't. We're very serious here on RBR.


1000% serious & Keepin' It Real 24 by 7 by 3-6-5.

GP4000SII seem like good tires. I hear-tell Trek makes good bikes. Anecdotally speaking 1000%, of course.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Switching to disk brakes should take care of any side wall problems.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Switching to disk brakes should take care of any side wall problems.


It's the fine-grained modulation of braking power during rain storms in the Alps that makes all the difference in the world with delicate tires.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

In the three most recent years working service in a high end shop in WI, I don't recall any GP4000 sidewall blowouts - and we sold and spec'd that tire more than any other.

Is this just a recent thing in the past 2 years since I stopped wrenching?


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Kontact said:


> In the three most recent years working service in a high end shop in WI, I don't recall any GP4000 sidewall blowouts - and we sold and spec'd that tire more than any other.
> 
> Is this just a recent thing in the past 2 years since I stopped wrenching?


I think it's just an RBR thing or maybe just a natural result of how forums ask a question and the responses are from those who happen to see it and wish to respond. Very small sample size. Not that it's fact. Right or wrong we all just give our personnel experiences and for me try to be open to learning something and admitting I don't know it all.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> GP4000SII seem like good tires. I hear-tell Trek makes good bikes. Anecdotally speaking 1000%, of course.


I thought we were going to keep it serious.


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## scottma (May 18, 2012)

Any thoughts if rim width has anything t do with sidewall vulnerability? With the trend of wide rims which make the tire sidewall more vertical I wonder if that makes them more likely to come in contact with debris? Just a thought. FWIW, I've been running them for about 5 years and no issues here.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> I thought we were going to keep it serious.


Hello. There's nothing more serious than when I cite 1000%. You need to enroll at the School For Kids That Don't Read Good.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

scottma said:


> Any thoughts if rim width has anything t do with sidewall vulnerability? With the trend of wide rims which make the tire sidewall more vertical I wonder if that makes them more likely to come in contact with debris? Just a thought. FWIW, I've been running them for about 5 years and no issues here.


I did read an article on a bike magazine page about this. For gravel bikes, they recommended rims with no greater than a 23mm internal width for this very reason. Of course, that is for gravel tires which are usually somewhere between 32 and 40mm. 

Here in the USA, if a little is good, more is better and too much is just enough. Road rims used to be traditionally 14 or 15mm. Then the wider rim trend came along. We went to 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and even 21. Where does it end??


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> Hello. There's nothing more serious than when I cite 1000%. You need to enroll at the School For Kids That Don't Read Good.


Blahhhh. That was the school I flunked out of.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Where does it end??


When road bike is up to 14 speed and rim width reaches 32mm. :crazy:


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

bvber said:


> When road bike is up to 14 speed and rim width reaches 32mm. :crazy:


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bvber again.

Dammit!


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## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

I kind of doubt this in my case. The sidewall blowout was halfway up the side. Once again, in 40+ years of riding I have never had this experience. 

I think it is time to go back to Gatorskins.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

npwhitman said:


> I kind of doubt this in my case. The sidewall blowout was halfway up the side. Once again, in 40+ years of riding I have never had this experience.
> 
> I think it is time to go back to Gatorskins.


ok, so it's understandable you're soured on the 4KIIs...

but, your plan is to stay with the same mfg and choose what is possibly their worst-riding tire?


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## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

I'm looking for that perfect compromise between durability, long-life, and performance. Any suggestions?


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

npwhitman said:


> I'm looking for that perfect compromise between durability, long-life, and performance. Any suggestions?


What about comfort/compliance? Is that also important to you? What is most important to you?


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## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

1. Durability
2. Long-life
3. Performance/comfort/compliance


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

npwhitman said:


> 1. Durability
> 2. Long-life
> 3. Performance/comfort/compliance


I think you should try the Unicorn brand, maybe the Unobtainium 9000. Besides durability, long life and comfort/performance, they also only weigh 120 grams and cost $19.99/tire. November Dave sells them.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

npwhitman said:


> 1. Durability
> 2. Long-life
> 3. Performance/comfort/compliance


Joking aside (you gotta laugh at PMF's response), if durability and long life are your most important qualities, the Maxxis Re-Fuse is your tire. These are nearly bombproof and a rear will last you at least 3000 miles. You won't find a more durable road tire than this one. The downside is that they are only 60 TPI, so less comfortable/compliant and more rolling resistance. YMMV. 

If you read through this whole thread, you would see where I asked about the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+. I am going to try this one as well as the Rubino Pro III (out of production, but there is still stock and you can get these pretty cheap). The Rubino series appears to be a little bit more durable version of their Corsa series. Mind you, the Corsa series is a "race tire" while the Rubino series is a "training tire". In general, training tires are more durable and have longer life at the expense of speed and comfort. 

Now careful! Just to make things confusing, Vittoria has multiple versions of both the Corsa and Rubino. There is the Corsa and Corsa Speed version. There is the Rubino, Rubino G+, Rubino Pro G+, Rubino Pro Speed G+ (lighter, less durable), Rubino Pro Control G+ and Rubino Pro Endurance (both more durable, but less compliant).

In general, the higher the TPI, the most supple the tire which equates to more comfort and less rolling resistance, but a slightly less durable tire.

See below and read specs and reviews carefully:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews 

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/search/training-recreation-road-tires?st=1&cat=re&brnd=vi&fcat=cre


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## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks for your response. The Maxxus Re-Fuse looks like a good compromise for my needs.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Joking aside (you gotta laugh at PMF's response), if durability and long life are your most important qualities, the Maxxis Re-Fuse is your tire. These are nearly bombproof and a rear will last you at least 3000 miles. You won't find a more durable road tire than this one. The downside is that they are only 60 TPI, so less comfortable/compliant and more rolling resistance. YMMV.
> 
> If you read through this whole thread, you would see where I asked about the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+. I am going to try this one as well as the Rubino Pro III (out of production, but there is still stock and you can get these pretty cheap). The Rubino series appears to be a little bit more durable version of their Corsa series. Mind you, the Corsa series is a "race tire" while the Rubino series is a "training tire". In general, training tires are more durable and have longer life at the expense of speed and comfort.
> 
> ...


While thread count can be a good indicator it's good to know how the count was arrived at. A 60tpi casing wrapped over itself can be called 120tpi which is a bit misleading. 180tpi if three wraps.

I've also read that suppleness can also be influenced by the tightness of the weave. A looser weave equals more supple while a tighter weave with a higher thread count could be less supple. I guess that it boils down to the finest thread in the loosest weave equals the more supple tire.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

npwhitman said:


> 1. Durability
> 2. Long-life
> 3. Performance/comfort/compliance


Durability and performance are inversely related. That's how it is with rubber. Doesn't matter if it's cycling, motogp, formula1, nasca, indy, rubber is rubber.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Joking aside (you gotta laugh at PMF's response), if durability and long life are your most important qualities, the Maxxis Re-Fuse is your tire. These are nearly bombproof and a rear will last you at least 3000 miles. You won't find a more durable road tire than this one. The downside is that they are only 60 TPI, so less comfortable/compliant and more rolling resistance. YMMV.
> 
> If you read through this whole thread, you would see where I asked about the Vittoria Rubino Pro G+. I am going to try this one as well as the Rubino Pro III (out of production, but there is still stock and you can get these pretty cheap). The Rubino series appears to be a little bit more durable version of their Corsa series. Mind you, the Corsa series is a "race tire" while the Rubino series is a "training tire". In general, training tires are more durable and have longer life at the expense of speed and comfort.
> 
> ...


3000 miles? that's about when a schwalbe marathon plus is broken in. of course they also roll like they were made of cement. but almost impossible to flat.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

I like the Schwalbe Durano for durability. The only tires I have never had a flat with and they last forever. Their ride quality is fine with me. They have a Durano Plus with extra protection but unles you are riding on roads paved with broken glass and rusty nails, the regular version should be sufficient.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

T K said:


> I like the Schwalbe Durano for durability. The only tires I have never had a flat with and they last forever. Their ride quality is fine with me. They have a Durano Plus with extra protection but unles you are riding on roads paved with broken glass and rusty nails, the regular version should be sufficient.


i stand corrected, I meant the duranos. 
They are nice with the extra layer if you prefer not to repair a flat is freezing windy conditions  But the difference with race tires is rather obvious. 
(trust me on this one, a nail is too much for them).


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

velodog said:


> While thread count can be a good indicator it's good to know how the count was arrived at. A 60tpi casing wrapped over itself can be called 120tpi which is a bit misleading. 180tpi if three wraps.
> 
> I've also read that suppleness can also be influenced by the tightness of the weave. A looser weave equals more supple while a tighter weave with a higher thread count could be less supple. I guess that it boils down to the finest thread in the loosest weave equals the more supple tire.


Yes, I understand that Conti tires have 3 plies. So a Conti tire that is rated as 330 TPI is actually 110 TPI for each ply.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

den bakker said:


> 3000 miles? that's about when a schwalbe marathon plus is broken in. of course they also roll like they were made of cement. but almost impossible to flat.




Well yeah, the Marathon Plus isn't even a road tire, it's a touring tire. So natually, it's made to emphasize durability Its rolling resistance is rated below under touring tires:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews?max=34&min=16&minpr=10&maxweight=899


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Well yeah, the Marathon Plus isn't even a road tire, it's a touring tire. So natually, it's made to emphasize durability Its rolling resistance is rated below under touring tires:
> 
> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews?max=34&min=16&minpr=10&maxweight=899


I'll be happy to repeat I misspoke. I meant duranos.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

den bakker said:


> I'll be happy to repeat I misspoke. I meant duranos.



Oh sorry. If only I had moved on and read your next post before replying. So you get more than 3000 miles out of a *rear* Schwalbe Durano? How much do you weigh?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Oh sorry. If only I had moved on and read your next post before replying. So you get more than 3000 miles out of a *rear* Schwalbe Durano? How much do you weigh?


fairly heavy, around 75kg


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

den bakker said:


> fairly heavy, around 75kg


75kg is 167lbs. Not that heavy. I'm about 180lbs. fully clothed and don't usually travel light on my rides. 

That said, I could probably get more than 3000 miles, but this is usually the point where my rear tire gets thin enough where I don't feel comfortable continuing to use it.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I had a sidewall cut that resulted in a flat yesterday. Not sure what I ran over. Lots of detritus on the shoulder. Had to boot the tire with a Park boot. Conti 4000SII. Doesn't happen very often though. If it did, I'd switch to GP 4 Seasons.


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

npwhitman said:


> 1. Durability
> 2. Long-life
> 3. Performance/comfort/compliance


Well, #1 and #2 are the same thing, and #3 is actually 2 different things....




npwhitman said:


> Thanks for your response. The Maxxus Re-Fuse looks like a good compromise for my needs.


Well, if you don't mind a tire that rides like a garden hose....

I've never bought a Maxxis tire, but from what I've seen, they essentially define the term "cheap and nasty". I'd bet that after just 20 miles on these things, you'll regret your purchase. This is the kind of tire you'd put on your kid's bike because you are tired of fixing his flats, or if you live down the street from a glass recycling facility. Only buy these things if "3. Performance/comfort/compliance" actually means nothing at all to you...


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## npwhitman (Nov 3, 2017)

Durability to me means resistance to sidewall blowouts and to a lesser degree, flats. Long life is how long the tread lasts before threads are showing.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Well, #1 and #2 are the same thing, and #3 is actually 2 different things....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An exaggeration for sure, Toulouse. Maxxis Re-Fuse are a little less compliant/comfortable, but it is not a tremendous difference. I just experimented with a pair of the new Vittoria Rubino Pro G+. They feel a tiny bit faster than my Re-Fuses, but any compliance differences were negligible.

To put things in perspective, you will notice a bigger difference in compliance going to the next wider/narrower tire width than you will changing make and model of tire. Pressure makes a bigger difference too.


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