# Who builds the most advanced Titanium Frame



## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Now that Serrota is gone, who is the the tehnological leader? Serrota would do things with their tubes that not a lot of others did, such as swaging or taking butting to extremes, high grade titanium drop outs in the fork, etc. Who comes closest? No22 bicycle company and Alchemy bikes seem to be either doing projects with Ben Serrotta or taking on former teams. What do those who know custom builders think here?


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## ridingred (Aug 25, 2010)

Kelly Bedford built Serrota's bikes for about 25 years.  He builds titanium frames. 
Check out kbedfordcustoms.com.


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## Roland44 (Mar 21, 2013)

ridingred said:


> Kelly Bedford built Serrota's bikes for about 25 years. He builds titanium frames.
> Check out kbedfordcustoms.com.


+1 on this!


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## Warpdatframe (Dec 9, 2012)

Lynskey does pretty crazy stuff aswell.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

the Holland ExoGrid looks advanced, can't say from experience about the claims:
Holland Cycles ? Holland ExoGrid® Bicycle


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

merckxman said:


> the Holland ExoGrid looks advanced, can't say from experience about the claims:
> Holland Cycles ? Holland ExoGrid® Bicycle


I live in San Diego where Holland is located. He has been building frames for many years. He started out with steel and eventually went exclusively to Ti. I know a few people who have Hollands and see many of them around here. I have not asked any of them what in particular they like about them but I heard he only builds 50 frames a year and he gets $5K for them.


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## mannymerc (Nov 19, 2013)

I like merlin bikes. I Had one before, want to get another one.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Interesting thread,, Although I do not have an opinion, I am building a TiSport Frame, manufactured by TST-Sandvik in the USA, will post pictures next week or two of the complete package.. TST althought out of the business, This was posted on Titanium Rides's web site, if its true they made great frames. 
TiSport’s frame quality is unsurpassed. They guaranty to hold 0.020″ straightness from the head tube to the rear dropouts. In addition to the in-process checks, each frame goes through a final 27-step quality check before being shipped. I believe this is why so many companies choose TiSport to build their frames.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

n2deep said:


> Interesting thread,, Although I do not have an opinion, I am building a TiSport Frame, manufactured by TST-Sandvik in the USA, will post pictures next week or two of the complete package.. TST althought out of the business, This was posted on Titanium Rides's web site, if its true they made great frames.
> TiSport’s frame quality is unsurpassed. They guaranty to hold 0.020″ straightness from the head tube to the rear dropouts. In addition to the in-process checks, each frame goes through a final 27-step quality check before being shipped. I believe this is why so many companies choose TiSport to build their frames.


would you mind telling everyone who the "so many companies" are who have TiSport build their frames?

Is this the same TiSport that went out of business about 5 years ago and sold off all of their frame-building tools and materials? I'd be pretty impressed if they managed to go from resurrection to "unsurpassed" (your word, not mine) in such a short time.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

JustTooBig said:


> would you mind telling everyone who the "so many companies" are who have TiSport build their frames?
> 
> Is this the same TiSport that went out of business about 5 years ago and sold off all of their frame-building tools and materials? I'd be pretty impressed if they managed to go from resurrection to "unsurpassed" (your word, not mine) in such a short time.


From the tone of your post, you already know all of the answers? So why don't you enlighten us minions and answer the OPs questions? I'm sure all of us lesser creatures will appreciate the mana from heaven!!!


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> the most advanced Titanium Frame............. who is the the tehnological leader? ............such as swaging or taking butting to extremes, high grade titanium drop outs in the fork, etc.


Does your quest mean that you consider the best frames to be those that adopt the most extreme visual features? Remember, throughout the history of the bicycle frame (and with wheels too, more recently) visually <s>bizarre</s> different features are used to raise both hype and sales. In my two-year quest for the ideal Ti frame for *me*, I went with one of the plainest I could find, to get away from "feature of the month" - my beloved Kish. The runner up was another dead plain one - Steve Potts. But I'm sure a frame with twisted tubes would gather more of a crowd than mine.


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## morgan1819 (Nov 22, 2005)

Mike may actually be on to something here. When it comes to road frames, sometimes less really can be more

When the OP states 'technology leader', I think he is opening a can of worms.

I think most builders have access to butted tubes. Most builders can work with your geometry requirements. Most builders are willing to ask questions about your weight, riding style, etc, and can build a frame you will be happy with.

Kish (if you need custom sizing) and Moots would be a good place to start. Lynskey would probably be my choice, since I fit one of their standard sizes, and therefore wouldn't have to deal with the wait and higher price of custom.

Get the right geometry, correct tubes for your weight/riding style, and go with a builder you trust. That is all the technology you need....






Mike T. said:


> Does your quest mean that you consider the best frames to be those that adopt the most extreme visual features? Remember, throughout the history of the bicycle frame (and with wheels too, more recently) visually <s>bizarre</s> different features are used to raise both hype and sales. In my two-year quest for the ideal Ti frame for *me*, I went with one of the plainest I could find, to get away from "feature of the month" - my beloved Kish. The runner up was another dead plain one - Steve Potts. But I'm sure a frame with twisted tubes would gather more of a crowd than mine.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

n2deep said:


> From the tone of your post, you already know all of the answers? So why don't you enlighten us minions and answer the OPs questions? I'm sure all of us lesser creatures will appreciate the mana from heaven!!!


Tone? I'm not in the habit of asking questions I already know the answers to. Nice try at sarcastic snark, though. I can tell future interactions with you will be so very pleasant. Welcome.

All I know is that a company called TiSport went out of business several years ago. Haven't heard about them since then until this thread, where they've apparently risen from the ashes. I'd like to know about that. Hence the question.

Likewise, I am unaware of who the "many companies" may be who have their frames built by TiSport. But I would *like* to know. Hence my other question.

Not everyone is going to make their inquiries in a manner that does not offend your fragile sensibilities. You may have to discover on your own that pretentious sputterings about "minions" and "lesser creatures" aren't likely the ideal way to get credibility around here. But to each his own....


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

morgan1819 said:


> Mike may actually be on to something here. When it comes to road frames, *sometimes less really can be more*
> When the OP states 'technology leader', I think he is opening a can of worms.
> I think most builders have access to butted tubes.


You're getting into my teritory with the remark I bolded. I've followed this example for many years in many things --

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

I used to do custom leatherwork for 3 decades. The stuff I did was technically more advanced than my all competition but visually, it was boring. Where they put their efforts (and therefore time) into carved fishes, flowers and deer-heads, I put mine into perfect hand-sewing and other construction details. I lost many sales because I wouldn't bang the guys initials into the front surface  Those who knew perfection looked at my glass-smooth edges and winked.

And for the two custom ti frame makers, who were on my short-list of builders that I asked the leading question (to which I knew the answer) of "What difference does your butted tubing make over plain gauge?", their non-BS answer of "About 4 ounces" was the answer that kept them on my list.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

merckxman said:


> the Holland ExoGrid looks advanced, can't say from experience about the claims:
> Holland Cycles ? Holland ExoGrid® Bicycle


The Holland Exogrid is a fancy bike. That's a lot of work to fuse carbon and titanium. I'm surprised that his Exogrid frame is selling for less than his full carbon frame. These days, making a high performace monocoque carbon frame can be done by Chinese for cheap. But infusing ti and carbon takes great artistry and technical skill. I would take his Exogrid frame over his HC carbon frame anyday.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> The Holland Exogrid is a fancy bike. That's a lot of work to fuse carbon and titanium. I'm surprised that his Exogrid frame is selling for less than his full carbon frame. These days, making a high performace monocoque carbon frame can be done by Chinese for cheap. But infusing ti and carbon takes great artistry and technical skill. I would take his Exogrid frame over his HC carbon frame anyday.


I think the world is waking up to the fact that the Pinerello, Cervello & Cannondale is made side by side in the same Far East factory spitting out Giants. There are many specialty manufacturers that don't have the name recognition of Seven, Serotta or Parlee that sell well made and hand made frames for little or no premium to the generic me-too carbon frames out of China and Taiwan by builders who respect the bicycle and put their soul into each frame


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

What about some of these Italian beauties form Carrera and SOMEC?


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Another one would be Crisp Titanium, made by Darren Crisp. He's done some interesting things with Ti. Darren is American but lives and does his framebuilding in Italy.

Campagnolo chose one of his frames to hang their 80th anniv gruppo for the marketing.

web:CRISP titanium ? English MAIN » CRISP titanium - English


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

I remember a post on ti frame failures, and something was said about the more manipulated a ti tube was, the more likely it was to fail. I don't know about the expertise of the person who stated this, but my 19 year old, straight gauge, round tubed, flogged daily ti frame, is still the nicest riding bike I've ever swung my leg over.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

JustTooBig said:


> would you mind telling everyone who the "so many companies" are who have TiSport build their frames?


Are you serious or just being sarcastic. TiSports made many companies ti frames, stems, handlebars and seatposts.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

twinkles said:


> I remember a post on ti frame failures, and something was said about the more manipulated a ti tube was, the more likely it was to fail


Ti is a pain to work with. Too many bicycle builders think it is just another kind of steel and screw up. 
It can work harden if manipulated too much.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

I like bike companies that are small and build their own bikes, not farm them out to someone else and brand them under a "house name". Lynskey builds all of their Ti bikes by hand by themselves in Chattanooga, TN. They have their own factory and high tech equipment to build various model road and mountain bikes. Are they the "best"? I don't know. I think titling a company "the best" is very subjective. For me, I placed my trust in Lynskey after doing a lot of research into Ti bikes. Anytime I called Lynksey and asked many questions to Don Irwin and Mike Langford, they were patient and answered all of my questions. I watched many Youtube videos. I had full confidence in Lynskey and placed my order for a 2014 R255 in December. The bike arrived in January and I am more than satisfied. I especially like the 100% lifetime frame warranty. 

After putting around 800 miles on the Lynskey R255 since the end of January, even with the crazy winter we've had, I'm more than satisfied with the bike, and may, in the future, buy a different model Lynskey.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> I think the world is waking up to the fact that the Pinerello, Cervello & Cannondale is made side by side in the same Far East factory spitting out Giants. There are many specialty manufacturers that don't have the name recognition of Seven, Serotta or Parlee that sell well made and hand made frames for little or no premium to the generic me-too carbon frames out of China and Taiwan by builders who respect the bicycle and put their soul into each frame


exactly. If I wanted a "high performance" carbon racing bike, I'd probably get a Giant or Merida, or maybe even one of the Chinese clones. All of them can be made just as light and just as capable as any top line carbon Pinarello, Colnago, C'dale, Specialized, etc. And since I'm not a paid pro who is given free equipment, I can care less about company brochures touting special features of a frame that ultimately means almost nothing in the grand scheme.

But a "keeper" bike to me has to have element of either steel or titanium, it has to be traditional, and it has to look classy. I would never get a custom full carbon fiber bike just simply because I want performance; this can be handled by the Chinese very well. 5 years from now, any of the current latest and greatest carbon whizbang, is gonna look like an old maid.


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## Newnan3 (Jul 8, 2011)

Love how the tapered headtube looks on the newer ti bikes these days.....Wish my 2013 Lynskey had it


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Newnan3 said:


> Love how the tapered headtube looks on the newer ti bikes these days.....Wish my 2013 Lynskey had it


Lynskey is hardly specialty a Ti builder. They've clearly gone mass market. But if you like the product, nothing wrong then.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> Lynskey is hardly specialty a Ti builder. They've clearly gone mass market. But if you like the product, nothing wrong then.


Lynskey started off in titanium fab before he even built bicycle frames.

I challenge you to name a bicycle builder with more understanding of titanium fabrication than Lynskey. If you do think up someone, back up your argument with evidence.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

It's not about technology, it's about craft. All technology is available to everyone, and so are all the materials. It's how you apply it. Craft includes the skill in hand working with materials, the creativity of design, and the understanding of mechanical advantage. 

And, whether a craftsman is building you just one frame to your specs or has setup a short run production line to make the identical product in quantity, they both involve craft and will yield the same item. To think that the 'one' factory in China that makes frames for a variety of American designers is making them all the same is ridiculous. They are simply contract manufacturers that are following the instructions that each customer (bike brand) has provided and must meet the specs of their customers. 

And to nay-nay carbon frames in favor of the steel frames that you want to believe are truly 'special' and superior is seeing with blinders. Or maybe you just can't let go of the old frame you ride and remember when it was new.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Lynskey started off in titanium fab before he even built bicycle frames.
> 
> I challenge you to name a bicycle builder with more understanding of titanium fabrication than Lynskey. If you do think up someone, back up your argument with evidence.


Easy there big guy. 
This is subjective, but Seven & Moots are fantastic frame builders. Moots does a great job welding, and Seven has an awesome database which helps in customizing frames to buyer riding profiles. Until they went out of business Serotta arguably took titanium frame building to new levels not only butting, but swaging tubes to get desired results.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

That's true, 520, but all top builders are doing all those things. That's why it's such a tough choice and why the OP's original question is unanswerable.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Special Eyes said:


> It's not about technology, it's about craft. All technology is available to everyone, and so are all the materials. It's how you apply it. Craft includes the skill in hand working with materials, the creativity of design, and the understanding of mechanical advantage.
> 
> And, whether a craftsman is building you just one frame to your specs or has setup a short run production line to make the identical product in quantity, they both involve craft and will yield the same item. To think that the 'one' factory in China that makes frames for a variety of American designers is making them all the same is ridiculous. They are simply contract manufacturers that are following the instructions that each customer (bike brand) has provided and must meet the specs of their customers.
> 
> And to nay-nay carbon frames in favor of the steel frames that you want to believe are truly 'special' and superior is seeing with blinders. Or maybe you just can't let go of the old frame you ride and remember when it was new.


Here we go with the "China factories can make any thing and every thing to American designers' specifications". Is that why every major mainstream carbon fiber frame features:

1. tapered heattube
2. oversized downtube
3. skinny seatstays
4. some variation of pressfit bottom bracket

...why... all these features can also be found on a Hongfu or Dengfu.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

I want carbon-titanium weave like in the pagani huayra


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

tednugent said:


> I want carbon-titanium weave like in the pagani huayra


Something like Textreme carbon with titanium filaments woven into the actual strands for damping. Columbus used a ti mesh layer in some of their forks.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Special Eyes said:


> Craft includes the skill in hand working with materials, the creativity of design, and the understanding of mechanical advantage


Ah, there's the rub. When ti first came on the scene it was not used to it's proper advantage. As discussed elsewhere many early ti frames failed because they were built too light.
Others failed because builders worried about making nice looking welds instead of structurally sound welds.
What parameters do we use to define a titanium frame as "advanced"?
Complex shaping is neat but can lead to failure if the material is over-worked.
Light weight is great but not at the expense of durability.
Smooth welds look nice but could be bad welds covered with filler and buffed smooth.
Ti/carbon hybrids can have the best of both materials but may have problems with bonding or corrosion where the different materials contact.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> Easy there big guy.
> This is subjective, but Seven & Moots are fantastic frame builders. Moots does a great job welding, and Seven has an awesome database which helps in customizing frames to buyer riding profiles. Until they went out of business Serotta arguably took titanium frame building to new levels not only butting, but swaging tubes to get desired results.





Special Eyes said:


> That's true, 520, but all top builders are doing all those things. That's why it's such a tough choice and why the OP's original question is unanswerable.


Special Eyes, if you are referring to Trek5200's comment about swaging, not "all" top builders do it. I may be wrong, but very few Ti builders swage their tubes (I really can't think of another that does swage). Heck, moots doesn't even offer butted tubing and they are one of the top Ti builders IMHO. 

My opinion on "advanced" Ti building methods is that there isn't a whole lot that can be done to Ti that significantly improves the ride characteristics. But for guys doing some interesting stuff in Ti, my top of my list would start with Baum and Firefly. Baum's chain stays are massive and I would assume does an incredible job of transferring power while still maintaining comfort. Fireflies are a work of art. I also like De Rosa Titanio's CNC'ed head tube. But if I were to buy a new Ti frame, I'd probably go with Moots, Seven, or Eriksen.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

I always loved my Moots.
Always told people what an amazing ride it was and everyone complimented it as being a beautiful looking bike.
Sadly she is now landfill after I was hit by a truck last year.

Currently I have a CF bike from Dengfu (does the job for racing on but like every CF bike I have ridden it is meh ride wise.
I also just finished building up a 28 year old Concorde made of Columbus PRX.
IMO it is hands down a smoother and quieter ride than the Moots ever was.
PRX tubing was designed for Paris Roubaix so the smooth ride is somewhat expected I guess.
The COncorde is also built via Ciocc so has a good pedigree to go with that.

But is the tubing or the manufacturer the bigger cause of the great ride?

I question whether the swaging and the dropouts are going to have as big an impact as the tubing?
Some of the dropout designs I have seen seem more gimmick than anything.
Remember Lynskey's clover leaf design and how many of those cracked through that area?


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Ride-Fly said:


> Special Eyes, if you are referring to Trek5200's comment about swaging, not "all" top builders do it. I may be wrong, but very few Ti builders swage their tubes (I really can't think of another that does swage). Heck, moots doesn't even offer butted tubing and they are one of the top Ti builders IMHO.
> 
> My opinion on "advanced" Ti building methods is that there isn't a whole lot that can be done to Ti that significantly improves the ride characteristics. But for guys doing some interesting stuff in Ti, my top of my list would start with Baum and Firefly. Baum's chain stays are massive and I would assume does an incredible job of transferring power while still maintaining comfort. Fireflies are a work of art. I also like De Rosa Titanio's CNC'ed head tube. But if I were to buy a new Ti frame, I'd probably go with Moots, Seven, or Eriksen.


I didn't mean to imply that all top builders are using all those techniques on every build. I said the technology is available to them all, and there are no secret methods to bend a tube in a weird way that others can't. So it's just a matter of choice, but no one has the magic over anyone else to do any of it. My Lynskey's welds are perfect, so are the Moots I don't own and many others. It's just a matter of taste of design and aesthetics for the consumer at that point when you're choosing from within that league of craftsmen.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

FTR said:


> I always loved my Moots.
> Always told people what an amazing ride it was and everyone complimented it as being a beautiful looking bike.
> Sadly she is now landfill after I was hit by a truck last year.
> 
> ...


yep, my experience with steel probably mirrors yours. I have a Tommasini and a Mondonico and they are smoother than my Ti or carbons. I love to ride them both, especially as my "Sunday" ride. Btw, great job with your Concorde! 

I didnt realize Lynskey had problems with those dropouts. But it doesn't surprise me. Skimping in the dropout area where weld contamination control is so critical to Ti is like playing with fire.



Special Eyes said:


> I didn't mean to imply that all top builders are using all those techniques on every build. I said the technology is available to them all, and there are no secret methods to bend a tube in a weird way that others can't. So it's just a matter of choice, but no one has the magic over anyone else to do any of it. My Lynskey's welds are perfect, so are the Moots I don't own and many others. It's just a matter of taste of design and aesthetics for the consumer at that point when you're choosing from within that league of craftsmen.


My understanding of the swaging that Serotta did was something that very few, if any other builders could do. I recall that tubes were forced through machines to create a swaged tube. But I guess that it could just have been their PR that I bought into. 

I've talked to several who own/owned many Ti bikes, and the impression I got was that their Serotta Legend wasn't any better than their other Ti bikes. IMHO, you can't go wrong with any of the top-tier Ti builders. Metal bikes are great. Bikes are great!


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Ride-Fly said:


> yep, my experience with steel probably mirrors yours. I have a Tommasini and a Mondonico and they are smoother than my Ti or carbons. I love to ride them both, especially as my "Sunday" ride. Btw, great job with your Concorde!
> 
> I didnt realize Lynskey had problems with those dropouts. But it doesn't surprise me. Skimping in the dropout area where weld contamination control is so critical to Ti is like playing with fire.


Thanks for your comments.
It has turned out very nice.

That sort of problem with too much material removed from the dropout area is not limited to Lynskey.
I have seen other ti frames have similar breakages in that area for this reason.

Also just read comments about Baum.
My understanding is that Darren used Moots as his "model" for building frames.
I like his bikes but I have to wonder whether a big part of it is the paint jobs.


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## Ride-Fly (Mar 27, 2002)

FTR said:


> Also just read comments about Baum.
> My understanding is that Darren used Moots as his "model" for building frames.
> I like his bikes* but I have to wonder whether a big part of it is the paint jobs*.


I used to think the same thing, and to an extent his paint jobs are the differentiating factor. But then I starred noticing the details of Baum's work. He does some cool things with his stays and internal routing that you don't normally see on Ti frames.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Ride-Fly said:


> I used to think the same thing, and to an extent his paint jobs are the differentiating factor. But then I starred noticing the details of Baum's work. He does some cool things with his stays and internal routing that you don't normally see on Ti frames.


OK.
I must not look at them closely enough.


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## Bill2 (Oct 14, 2007)

Bertoletti Legend Il Re is on my shopping list if I ever win the Lotto


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## Italianrider76 (May 13, 2005)

Baum??


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## Flying Foot Doc (Apr 18, 2014)

New to this forum, but interested in the topic. My compliments to Mike T. Of all the posts I have ever read on line his is the 1 st I've ever seen to use a favorite author and use it correctly, Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Still looking to find again that "magic carpet, I'm in love" feeling that captured me 30 years ago on my Raliegh Competition GS


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

FTR said:


> I also just finished building up a 28 year old Concorde made of Columbus PRX.
> IMO it is hands down a smoother and quieter ride than the Moots ever was.
> PRX tubing was designed for Paris Roubaix so the smooth ride is somewhat expected I guess.


Not to highjack the thread, but this interests me. Can you post photos?


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Fignon's Barber said:


> Not to highjack the thread, but this interests me. Can you post photos?


There is a thread for it.
Search Concorde Prelude.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

n2deep said:


> Interesting thread,, Although I do not have an opinion, I am building a TiSport Frame, manufactured by TST-Sandvik in the USA, will post pictures next week or two of the complete package.. TST althought out of the business, This was posted on Titanium Rides's web site, if its true they made great frames.
> TiSport’s frame quality is unsurpassed. They guaranty to hold 0.020″ straightness from the head tube to the rear dropouts. In addition to the in-process checks, each frame goes through a final 27-step quality check before being shipped. I believe this is why so many companies choose TiSport to build their frames.


For what it's worth, I can add a bit of insite into that frame material. I used be the North American manager for Sandvik through the 1990's, although I ran a different division (I was in Strip Steel line). I can assure you that the Ti tubing used in the sports division was as good as you can get. You see, the plant was in Kennewick, Wa. because they serviced the nuclear industry there. They needed something to do with the small remnants of left over tubing, so they started the sports division, making bike frames,golf club shafts, and hockey stick shafts (which they had to stop for player safety-they were TOO indestructible). As the tubes were designed originally to carry nuclear waste and other harsh stuff for infinite periods of time, you can assume that you will never have an issue with corrosion or material breakdown of any kind. 
As an interested observer in the early 1990's, I tried to offer some advice since the Sandvik management of the sport division knew nothing of cycling. My advice was simple: brand panache sells in cycling, so you need a famous brand name behind your product. I had read an article in a bike magazine (remember, the internet wasn't invented by Al Gore yet) that Eddy Merckx was big on Ti. I called the sport div. manager, and offered to contact Eddy myself. Could you imagine? A match made in heaven: a state of the art manufacturing facility (they had personel and equipment to build frames far beyond bike tolerances) with frames designed and branded with the Cannibal's marque. Killer.
Not quite. Company politics being what they were, my idea was greeted with a "Eddy who?" and "you stick with your division and we will run ours". Months later, they signed a licensing deal with Mongoose. Mongoose, as in "sold in Toys-R-Us". 
After, that, I lost interest in them. I know they started selling tubes to Dean, and then under their own generic sounding name, which may have been TiSports. The bottom line is if its a Sanvike Ti frame, its good Ti material.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Mike T. said:


> Does your quest mean that you consider the best frames to be those that adopt the most extreme visual features? Remember, throughout the history of the bicycle frame (and with wheels too, more recently) visually <s>bizarre</s> different features are used to raise both hype and sales. In my two-year quest for the ideal Ti frame for *me*, I went with one of the plainest I could find, to get away from "feature of the month" - my beloved Kish. The runner up was another dead plain one - Steve Potts. But I'm sure a frame with twisted tubes would gather more of a crowd than mine.



No, advanced means best quality construction, manipulation of tubing in ways that improve the ride in the way intended and intelligent tube selection and sizing.


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## Burnette (Mar 25, 2013)

*Latest And Greatest*

There are some of us that have OCD that has to be satisfied, so, here is FTR's beautiful Concorde Prelude:







There was a program on the radio yesterday about men, and technology and, shocker here, how we have to have the latest and greatest "things". The program focused on real progressive technology in products versus advertising hyperbole. Using razors as an example, they did a study with men using cheap razors and expensive and "advanced" ones that had extra features. Conclusion is what you would expect, a shave is a shave. Whether you want to pay more for the do dads has more to do with your perspective and personal opinion than the actual performance of the product at hand.
"Most Advanced" bicycle made out of any material will only perform as well as the meatball powering it.
You can get the quad blade with Aloe strip and pivoting head model, but you'll still look like you in the mirror when you're done.
Find a builder who you believe is good at frame built to rider fit and also good at tube selection in relation to purpose of use and give them your money. Easy peasy.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Flying Foot Doc said:


> My compliments to Mike T. Of all the posts I have ever read on line his is the 1 st I've ever seen to use a favorite author and use it correctly, Antoine de Saint-Exupery.


It's from the large file of quotations that I keep on the computer. I find it strange that this quotation is not listed my Bartlett's Quotations in the section on Saint-Exupery.


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## FTR (Sep 20, 2006)

Burnette said:


> There are some of us that have OCD that has to be satisfied, so, here is FTR's beautiful Concorde Prelude:
> There was a program on the radio yesterday about men, and technology and, shocker here, how we have to have the latest and greatest "things". The program focused on real progressive technology in products versus advertising hyperbole. Using razors as an example, they did a study with men using cheap razors and expensive and "advanced" ones that had extra features. Conclusion is what you would expect, a shave is a shave. Whether you want to pay more for the do dads has more to do with your perspective and personal opinion than the actual performance of the product at hand.
> "Most Advanced" bicycle made out of any material will only perform as well as the meatball powering it.
> You can get the quad blade with Aloe strip and pivoting head model, but you'll still look like you in the mirror when you're done.
> Find a builder who you believe is good at frame built to rider fit and also good at tube selection in relation to purpose of use and give them your money. Easy peasy.


I will agree with this.
The bicycle industry thrives on marketing hype.

I am getting a custom steel frame built.
I will be asking my builder to ride the Concorde and then will be telling him to make it feel at least as good to ride as it does.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Burnette said:


> Find a builder who you believe is good at frame built to rider fit and also good at tube selection in relation to purpose of use and give them your money. Easy peasy.


Any builder doing customs should be able to give you what you want. Advanced is totally subjective. If you want the fastest bike available, train and eat like a champion.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Fignon's Barber said:


> For what it's worth, I can add a bit of insite into that frame material. I used be the North American manager for Sandvik through the 1990's, although I ran a different division (I was in Strip Steel line). I can assure you that the Ti tubing used in the sports division was as good as you can get. You see, the plant was in Kennewick, Wa. because they serviced the nuclear industry there. They needed something to do with the small remnants of left over tubing, so they started the sports division, making bike frames,golf club shafts, and hockey stick shafts (which they had to stop for player safety-they were TOO indestructible). As the tubes were designed originally to carry nuclear waste and other harsh stuff for infinite periods of time, you can assume that you will never have an issue with corrosion or material breakdown of any kind.
> As an interested observer in the early 1990's, I tried to offer some advice since the Sandvik management of the sport division knew nothing of cycling. My advice was simple: brand panache sells in cycling, so you need a famous brand name behind your product. I had read an article in a bike magazine (remember, the internet wasn't invented by Al Gore yet) that Eddy Merckx was big on Ti. I called the sport div. manager, and offered to contact Eddy myself. Could you imagine? A match made in heaven: a state of the art manufacturing facility (they had personel and equipment to build frames far beyond bike tolerances) with frames designed and branded with the Cannibal's marque. Killer.
> Not quite. Company politics being what they were, my idea was greeted with a "Eddy who?" and "you stick with your division and we will run ours". Months later, they signed a licensing deal with Mongoose. Mongoose, as in "sold in Toys-R-Us".
> After, that, I lost interest in them. I know they started selling tubes to Dean, and then under their own generic sounding name, which may have been TiSports. The bottom line is if its a Sanvike Ti frame, its good Ti material.



Thanks great insite,, not a lot of information about TST!!! Best Regards N2deep


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## AndyMc2006 (Oct 27, 2006)

I would go with Carl Strong for Ti or steel, I think it's a pretty long wait though.


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

Whatever tubing Sandvik was using was surely available to everyone else. It's just Ti tubing. The good stuff is 6Al4V and the common stuff is Type II, as well as the 3Al type used commonly today to save costs. I do precision CNC machining and work regularly with Ti. I have numerous suppliers that can all get the same stuff. It is possible that a particular project may require a special alloy that is custom blended, but that is pretty rare and I doubt Sandvik was doing that back then. Just because a company is in a specific location does not give them any advantage except for lower freight costs.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

AndyMc2006 said:


> I would go with Carl Strong for Ti or steel, I think it's a pretty long wait though.


Love both my Strongs, 1 steel and one Ti, great bloke. No BS and pure function creates form, no gimmicks.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

This thread is a bit of a head scratcher as we try to breakdown the meaning of the word "advanced" to describe a very basic truss design that has little changed for over 100 years. If we really look at what a frame does, how much more "advanced" can that really get? It holds the rider in place between the two wheels. The issue becomes ideas/ideals of stiffness, weight and drag; the current darlings of bicycle marketing accounts. So maybe this thread should be about which companies are addressing these "issues" on their bikes.


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## JustTooBig (Aug 11, 2005)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Are you serious or just being sarcastic. TiSports made many companies ti frames, stems, handlebars and seatposts.


No sarcasm. Yes, I was aware of several they *made* (note the past tense) frames for. The other poster used present tense, I wasn't aware that was still happening.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Any of the long term builders is going to make you a great frame
your best bet is to find one close by where you can visit and get fitted
that will make more of a difference than anything

as far as tech I think the Holland Exogrids are at the top of the class


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

I would never buy a Ti bike or a custom one...

But atpjunkie's advice is bybfar the best. If you want advanced, then go with a bike made in factory with the most cutting edge manufacturing and testing. Otherwise, custom bikes, only benefit I can understand is custom fitting. None of these Ti bikes come close to the advancements of says Synapse Carbon that I can see. Just from outsiders view on custom bikes, I don't see how you can get a better experience over the phone with Linskey vs visiting a local shop and getting every minute detail discussed and fitted in person.

These are bikes, not rockets. As long as its the right fit and he knows how to weld well, don't see what the issue would be. Who cares if moots CNC machines their own cable stoppers... I know in Boston, there are too many bike builders already!

And for repairs and warranty issues, you won't have ship the bike, dude is right there!


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

JustTooBig said:


> No sarcasm. Yes, I was aware of several they *made* (note the past tense) frames for. The other poster used present tense, I wasn't aware that was still happening.


He was quoting an article from the era when it was still happening.
It isn't happening anymore, sadly.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I think the "advancements" touted by the major brands today are not nearly as great as they'd like you to imagine. The Synapse does what designers have been asking bike frames to do for generations. The trick is getting it to do the same things with different materials at a higher margin. I used to really pay attention to the reports coming out of the bike shows every year for new "advancements" in X, Y or Z. But living in the center of the bicycle designing universe, I have learned how little any of it really means… even to the pros (many of whom that I have had the pleasure to meet believe their ideal bicycle would be custom titanium or even classic steel).


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

@Dajianshan I agree with you. I don't see why anyone would focus so much on one part of my comment when the actual point was I agreed with another member that if you want a custom Ti frame, that speaking in person and dealing in person with a builder would be the best idea. It was just an observation, not a fact. I saw no reason why anyone would start throwing out insults and calling names over it. Or spamming reputation button like an immature brat.

In the end, whatever gets someone out of bed before work/class etc and ride is a good thing. For me, I don't care, if 50 million more cyclists were on the road more so drivers became more aware and used to cyclist on the road, better for me. 

Flame on, be immature and sending me terrible messages about how little intelligence I have and how bad a person I am on a forum where we all post anonymously. Unbelievable the immaturity of some RBR members have.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

:idea:

Hmmm… the forums aren't what they used to be.


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## wxflyer (Jan 16, 2012)

Interesting discussion on Ti...thanks all, for the insight. Shame some feel the need to flame, we all have experience/opinions here.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

Spectrum-Cycles and Firefly are worth a look. Check these two out.


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## Fignon's Barber (Mar 2, 2004)

Special Eyes said:


> Whatever tubing Sandvik was using was surely available to everyone else. It's just Ti tubing. The good stuff is 6Al4V and the common stuff is Type II, as well as the 3Al type used commonly today to save costs. I do precision CNC machining and work regularly with Ti. I have numerous suppliers that can all get the same stuff. It is possible that a particular project may require a special alloy that is custom blended, but that is pretty rare and I doubt Sandvik was doing that back then. Just because a company is in a specific location does not give them any advantage except for lower freight costs.


short answer: No. No.No..and no. Like any product made/bought/sold, there are different grades,etc. This depends on the customers' needs. As explained, the Ti tubes were designed to carry nuclear waste and other bad stuff. To put it in cycling terms, Sandvik was like Assos. Always cutting edge of tech and quality. Not cheap, but the best.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

BLUE BOY said:


> Spectrum-Cycles and Firefly are worth a look. Check these two out.


Found some old discussions on Road Bike and Velocipede about curved seat stays and chain stays, which might be one way a Ti builder might add to the bike engineering. Opinions seemed to be that there was some benefit, but not a significant one.

My new take is a good Ti bike is about good welds, geometry and proper selection of tubing to create a bike that is good for the rider's goals. Doesn't seem like there's a secret sauce here, just passion and paying attention to the customer. Also in reading the forums, it seems steel and titanium are the areas where custom builders can effectively compete where as Carbon and Aluminum are mostly in the domain of mass market bikes built in Asia (of course exceptions do exist like Parlee).


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

Trek_5200 said:


> My new take is a good Ti bike is about good welds, geometry and proper selection of tubing to create a bike that is good for the rider's goals. Doesn't seem like there's a secret sauce here, just passion and paying attention to the customer.


Wow, you just described Tom Kellogg @ Spectrum-Cycles to a tee. You may want to give them a closer look or give them a call.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

> Found some old discussions on Road Bike and Velocipede about curved seat stays and chain stays, which might be one way a Ti builder might add to the bike engineering. Opinions seemed to be that there was some benefit, but not a significant one.
> 
> My new take is a good Ti bike is about good welds, geometry and proper selection of tubing to create a bike that is good for the rider's goals. Doesn't seem like there's a secret sauce here, just passion and paying attention to the customer. Also in reading the forums, it seems steel and titanium are the areas where custom builders can effectively compete where as Carbon and Aluminum are mostly in the domain of mass market bikes built in Asia (of course exceptions do exist like Parlee).


I think you pretty much sum it up. 

I don't think carbon fiber essentially makes a better, faster, higher performance bike. What it does do, is to make it possible for manufacturers to make a fast, high performance bicycle frame that is better for the bottom lines of manufacturers and branding companies. The trick for some of the CF fabricators has been to try and emulate some of the positive qualities of metal tubing while maintaining the integrity of the CF truss. When I had my Ti racing bicycle built up I kept this in mind… One of my friends is a manufacturer of some of the highest tier racing bicycle frames in the world. He is also a semi-pro racer. He replaces his bikes every six to nine months for safety reasons. Thus, one high performance "advancement" of Ti is its durability and elasticity. 

The shapes of the stays probably do little more than look sexy. The key is to tune the stays for the appropriate geometry. After noticing longer stays than you typically find on a modern race bike on my own design (410mm), I took the question around to other experts. Look at the chain stay lengths from Seven, Parlee and Baum, among others. The stock mid-range stays are 410, 410, and 412 respectively. Parlee called it, "the sweet spot for performance". The custom builders can do this because they are not focused on other concerns beyond the requested behavior of the bike. They can find neutral handling for the rider. Titanium is very customizable in this regard. The technological advancements are not flashy or gimmicky, but reside in the application of hard data and material.

Seven, Firefly, Independent, Moots are among the best at data collection and interpretation. 

For the record, I ride and race on a Seven Axiom SL. One of my friends who is a professional rider in some of those big stage races you might hear about, he has his eye on a Firefly when he retires from the sport.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Dajianshan said:


> I think you pretty much sum it up.
> 
> I don't think carbon fiber essentially makes a better, faster, higher performance bike. What it does do, is to make it possible for manufacturers to make a fast, high performance bicycle frame that is better for the bottom lines of manufacturers and branding companies. The trick for some of the CF fabricators has been to try and emulate some of the positive qualities of metal tubing while maintaining the integrity of the CF truss. When I had my Ti racing bicycle built up I kept this in mind… One of my friends is a manufacturer of some of the highest tier racing bicycle frames in the world. He is also a semi-pro racer. He replaces his bikes every six to nine months for safety reasons. Thus, one high performance "advancement" of Ti is its durability and elasticity.
> 
> ...


I have a c-59, but I hesitate to ride it from late fall to early spring when the roads are really at their worst. Was thinking about an Axiom Sl built with bigger wheels maybe 25 or 27's. The goal is not so much to build a faster or better climbing bike than what I have now, but something more durable and planted for when the roads are a bit slicker, but still keeping the road bike profile. I'm not feeling as dialed in to my old Trek as I used to, maybe it's the geometry. I can't seem to push myself on it as I do with the c-59.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

That's funny, I built my Axiom SL with the C59 as a starting point. When I am fit and healthy, I can climb among the best. The geometry favors my climbing skills and offers superior technical descending.


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## merckxman (Jan 23, 2002)

Dajianshan said:


> The geometry favors my climbing skills and offers superior technical descending.


superior technical descending: topic that deserves more attention than it receives.


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Ah, there's the rub. When ti first came on the scene it was not used to it's proper advantage. As discussed elsewhere many early ti frames failed because they were built too light.
> Others failed because builders worried about making nice looking welds instead of structurally sound welds.
> What parameters do we use to define a titanium frame as "advanced"?
> Complex shaping is neat but can lead to failure if the material is over-worked.
> ...


I've been riding a small company bike now for awhile, Padunao racing Gladio. It's a really nice frame but as you claim. It's really not made to be light as the lightest carbon frames. It's not butted at the expense of rigidity. Completely different in ride feel to my previous Foil in a positive way. No issues what so ever with the bonding. If you are nervous for problems with bonding, i suggest you look up warranty. Paduano comes with lifetime for first buyer. At the moment i am waiting for a new frame to be finished, a Fidia.
It's rear triangle is titanium and only TT and DT is carbon. Legend Queen Ti only uses a carbon seatmast just as Passoni XXti.
These builders uses carbon seatmast instead of titanium only for the fact they don't wish to weld a ti seatmast tube at the seatstays and TT junction of the seatmast tube. Paduano does not weld this junction, but instead bond. This time i went for carbon tubes in TT and DT only to make the front stiffer. Gladio is similar but as Passoni and Legend also uses a carbon seatmast tube. What can be told of a bike like Gladio is that it is not as harsh as a Foil. Less vibrations in the contact points and not causing muscle fatigue as i felt my Foil did.
I've seen different approaches to stiffen up a full ti-bike. Mostly seen looking at the none round TT's and DT's that appears (more and more) on Lightspeed, Lynskey, Nevi and some other ti bikes. A ti bike that is getting very light, will probably flex quite a bit more. So a stiff ti bike will come in slightly more heavy than a carbon dito. But i say you won't have to be afraid of flex, these bikes are stiffer than you might realize. My custom sized 57 is now at 7570g with empy bottles, bike pc and pedals.

Where Foil was more twitchy, the Gladio is stable and i feel more in controll descending fast and cornering fast. If i say Gladio is stable like a train, it has much to do with the different BB drop (78mm) which helps but it also has a longer wheelbase. My new frame will be lower in stack (lower head tube) and just a bit shorter TT (8-10mm). Cost, yes Paduano, Passoni and Legends ti bikes are expensive. Having bikes (hand)built in USA or EU cost more than outsourcing to Asia. Mostly, like the fact that i have lifetime warranty and i never need to be afriad of a cracked headtube, BB or those other critical areas. In case of a crash, they help you fix the bike. The arguement against them come down to price and weight. You can get a full carbon frame at a very much lower weight.
Legend Queen Ti and Passoni XXti cost quite alot more than a Paduano.


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## Burnette (Mar 25, 2013)

*Advance This*

Hey Rickard Lauer, I had never heard of Padunao, found this on their site:
Image 3/14 | GALLERY&SPECIAL MASTERPIECES









I bet it comes with a bottle of crazy sauce!


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

Burnette said:


> Hey Rickard Lauer, I had never heard of Padunao, found this on their site:
> Image 3/14 | GALLERY&SPECIAL MASTERPIECES
> 
> 
> ...


This bike is if i am not totally off, partly, a customers own ideas. The crazy sauce might come along if you ask nicely. But i don't believe this is a "standard" bike. Personally i think it's great that customers can have what they want, even if i would not want it.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

I guess it comes down to what one's interpretation of the word "advanced" is, doesn't it?


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Dajianshan said:


> I don't think carbon fiber essentially makes a better, faster, higher performance bike. What it does do, is to make it possible for manufacturers to make a fast, high performance bicycle frame that is better for the bottom lines of manufacturers and branding companies.


My workplace makes stuff out of ti and carbon fiber, as well as other materials.

It is far easier to train someone to put pieces of carbon in a mould or operate a curing oven than it is to train someone to do really good welding. And we have constant problem with spending years training someone as a welder and then they take off somewhere else for more money or variety. 

So from a purely financial viewpoint, I could see ti frames being very expensive to make in high volume. You can't rush a guy who is welding slowly and carefully, and you can't hire a bunch more off the street.
Carbon is very scalable. Several layers of cloth can be cut on a laser cutter with millimeter accuracy. Production can be speeded up by adding shifts.
Carbon plant facilities are many times more expensive than ti facilities though.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> My workplace makes stuff out of ti and carbon fiber, as well as other materials.
> 
> It is far easier to train someone to put pieces of carbon in a mould or operate a curing oven than it is to train someone to do really good welding. And we have constant problem with spending years training someone as a welder and then they take off somewhere else for more money or variety.
> 
> ...


Noticed that more than a few manufacturers, have for quite some time wedded Ti & Carbon. In the case of Serrotta it seems they were making the move away from Ti and into Carbon more and more first with the Ottrott and then the Meivici. 

Personally I think both can make good frames, but Ti is clearly more durable and for me a little prettier to look at. 

As far as ease or difficulty to work with, I'm sure you are right about Ti needing more expertise and training. My uncle who was worked with metals would always say it was easier to work with Steel than Titanium.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

There is only so much you can do with any material including titanium, I think Lynskey makes as good of a bike as much more expensive builders, and he has many years of experience doing so, and all of his bikes are made in the USA. I really think there is a lot of ripping off going on in the cycling world, but at least Lynskey is keeping it reasonable to more of a degree than other (in this case) titanium builders. There is just no way that any titanium bike that costs 8k or even more is worth twice as much as a Lynskey, they all use the same components on their high end bikes so it's the frame we're discussing the price differences over and no frame is worth twice as much. In fact even the top of line Lynskey frame is not worth twice as much as their lower frame!!

I have two friends that own titanium bikes, (with their guidance I got mine), one has the "low end" Motobecane Team and the other a Serotta, I rode both many times before I got mine and frankly there wasn't any glaring differences other than the Serotta seemed tad bit more comfortable but that was probably due to the swayed stays, and the Moto was about a pound and half heavier. In fact the difference was so slight I was all set in my mind to get the Motobecane for a significant amount less than the Serotta which I could have bought at my local LBS. Unfortunately Bikes Direct stopped carrying that line of bikes, even though they still advertise them they haven't gotten in new ones in in over a year and half thus they only have a few odd ball sizes left. So I got a Lynskey instead due to an promotional sale so I got a reasonable deal but I still would have rather paid less and gotten the Motobecane but that's because I'm a tightwad. Then after I got the Lynskey the 3 of us rode each others bikes and the conclusion was that all around the Lynskey was the better bike, but not by a landslide just marginally better all around, again the Serotta won in the comfort area by a small margin, but the Lynskey felt more sure footed then either, and was as almost as light as the Serotta which the Serotta had Dura Ace while mine had 105 so probably if mine had all Dura Ace it would have been about the same weight, and it was as comfortable or more so than the Motobecane depending on who commented. Comfort issues could be related to a lot things and not just the frame, we didn't bother with changing wheelsets, or tires (though we did use the same tire pressure to eliminate that), or forks for obvious reasons, so we just tested them as they came from the factory.

If you want a nice titanium bike I see no reason to go above the Lynskey R350...but remember, I'm a tightwad and it's just an opinion.


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## Jpcoates155 (Dec 12, 2011)

BLUE BOY said:


> Firefly are worth a look. Check these two out.


No clue about more advanced, but Firefly is making some seriously drool worthy frames. They are taking artistic anodizing to another level.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

And then there was LITESPEED's attempt at being the most "advanced" titanium frame. The Archon Ti. 

It is a stiff bike, but not in a real good way. Mostly gimmicky with hideous welds. I spent some time on one of these a while back and it just didn't feel right. I was often struggling against the bike.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Dajianshan said:


> View attachment 294874
> 
> 
> And then there was LITESPEED's attempt at being the most "advanced" titanium frame. The Archon Ti.
> ...


The welds were the first thing I noticed! They are indeed hideous. They would have been better off coming up with some sort of lug design to do the same thing without resorting to uglifying a bike!


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I get what they were trying to do with the the welds, but admittedly it looks like crap.
If they really felt they need to run the tubing around the headtube to that degree, they should have come up with a process to clean the welds up.


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## giosblue (Aug 2, 2009)

I have a Litespeed Icon. it doesn't use the wrap around welds on the head tube. The welds on mine are nice, really nice and the bike rides lovely, plenty stiff enough for me. Titanium bikes are just nice to ride. 
When you're out on the Sunday club run and your not thinking about what you're your riding, just chatting to your mates, you keep telling yourself "this is nice".


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## Special Eyes (Feb 2, 2011)

_







Originally Posted by *Special Eyes* 
Whatever tubing Sandvik was using was surely available to everyone else. It's just Ti tubing. The good stuff is 6Al4V and the common stuff is Type II, as well as the 3Al type used commonly today to save costs. I do precision CNC machining and work regularly with Ti. I have numerous suppliers that can all get the same stuff. It is possible that a particular project may require a special alloy that is custom blended, but that is pretty rare and I doubt Sandvik was doing that back then. Just because a company is in a specific location does not give them any advantage except for lower freight costs.



_



Fignon's Barber said:


> short answer: No. No.No..and no. Like any product made/bought/sold, there are different grades,etc. This depends on the customers' needs. As explained, the Ti tubes were designed to carry nuclear waste and other bad stuff. To put it in cycling terms, Sandvik was like Assos. Always cutting edge of tech and quality. Not cheap, but the best.


Sorry, but I can not understand what it is you are trying to say. Short answer to what question? Different grades? Uh, Ok sure there are, and I mentioned two of them. So the tubes are to carry nuclear waste. That could simply be hot water. And what grade might that tubing be made from? No one has said. Cutting edge? In what way? Need to be more specific instead of using a common marketing scheme. Easy to say no no no, but you offer nothing of value.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

I got this following from another forum:

Titanium alloy Ti-3Al-2.5V, is the titanium alloy that Sandvik Special Metals has made so famous, in tubing form, in the bicycle industry. Sandvik is a maker of seamless tubing from ingot of this alloy. They will sell the tubing to small parts makers to be re-manufactured into bicycle components. More commonly, Sandvik is contracted to re-manufacture the titanium tubing on behalf of the bicycle parts maker to the maker's specifications, for a contracted price. Sandvik's tool set and titanium fabrication experience is probably un-parallelled, and our examination of their work has shown flawless quality in the miter cuts and joining welds. Sandvik sells and uses Ti-3Al-2.5V tubing that has been cold worked to increase the materials strength. To reduce the residual stress left after cold working, the tubing is then "stress relieved" which is a process of heating the metal to a suitable temperature, below melting or "recrystalization", and holding this temperature long enough to reduce the residual stress of the cold work, then cooling it slowly enough to minimize the development of new residual stresses."

Sandvik provides nearly 100% if not 100% of all titanium to all titanium bike frame builders. And lets not forget that at one time Litespeed was noted to have the best built best welded titanium bikes in the world, who owned Litespeed back then? Lynskey owned Litespeed, he now owns Lynskey of course and thus carries on the tradition of the best and Litespeed has to settle for something a bit lower now. Some companies shot peen their welds to make them smooth looking and some don't bother, but just because you can see a weld doesn't make it a bad bike. For awhile other bike manufactures like Eddie Merckx had their ti bikes made by Lynskey at Litespeed. Is Lynskey the best of the best? I think there are 7 or maybe 8 TI builders that are tied with Lynskey like Moot (which I hate their dull finish look), Kish, Seven, Spectrum, Potts, IF, and Merlin.

When it comes right down to it all TI frames are welded the same using argon gas and a TIG welder. From what I've seen of these some of the above listed builders and from Serotta, is that they all have the same great looking welds, nothing "amazing", just nice welds...going out on a shaky limb, even the Motobecane titanium Team model I saw also had very nice welds that rivaled those that I listed! More and more custom builders are turning to Titanium because it is a profit rich tubeset, which is why I like Lynskey because they keep their prices down especially in their entry level TI frames. A person wanting a ti bike has to way out what they can afford and the look they want because in ride quality you won't find any glaring differences between the most expensive or the least expensive.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

I ca't believe this thread has gone on for 4 pages and still no one has posted the correct answer! Empire build the most advanced Ti frame by 3D printing.

What makes it "advanced"? Consider that there are two substantial drawbacks to titanium as a frame material:


The slightest imperfection in the welds makes it weak.
The tubes can't be manupulated very much, or the fatigue strength is reduced (so no extreme butting or tapering)
3D printed frames completey obviate both of these problems, because they aren't welded at all, and the process can produce _any_ shaped tube you want, or even frames not made of tubes at all.

Ufortunately the one frame they have made cost £20k...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> I ca't believe this thread has gone on for 4 pages and still no one has posted the correct answer! Empire build the most advanced Ti frame by 3D printing.
> 
> What makes it "advanced"? Consider that there are two substantial drawbacks to titanium as a frame material:
> 
> ...


Well there you have it, the best made for just a mere $33,772...for those of you that drive Veyron's now can buy this bike.


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## Favorit (Aug 13, 2012)

NASA...oh wait, maybe not. Spaceflight Now | Breaking News | Fudged titanium could threaten next Mars rover


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Favorit said:


> NASA...oh wait, maybe not. Spaceflight Now | Breaking News | Fudged titanium could threaten next Mars rover


I don't know how NASA works, but since it's government, I wonder if that's just a casualty of lowest bidder method of sourcing parts and materials.


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> So from a purely financial viewpoint, I could see ti frames being very expensive to make in high volume. You can't rush a guy who is welding slowly and carefully, and you can't hire a bunch more off the street.
> Carbon is very scalable. Several layers of cloth can be cut on a laser cutter with millimeter accuracy. Production can be speeded up by adding shifts.
> Carbon plant facilities are many times more expensive than ti facilities though.


Yep. In economic terms, Ti frames have relatively high marginal costs, low fixed costs and are not particularly sensitive to economies of scale. Carbon frames are basically the opposite: high fixed costs, low marginal costs and very sensitive to economies of scale. Once you have the expensive engineering, mold and autoclave you need to make a carbon frame, you can pump carbon frames out with relatively unskilled labor. The marginal costs get very low very quickly. Also, carbon raw materials are generally pretty cheap and commoditized (regardless of what the industry would have you believe). Ti tubing, in contrast, is never cheap. 

Ti will always require intensive, skilled labor unless you get into something ridiculously expensive like robot welding. This is arguably true for any metal frame, although Ti requires some specialized skills. IMO, nothing should be cheaper than a slightly out-of-date carbon frame that's been popped out of a well-used and completely depreciated mold. Walmart bikes will probably be made out of carbon in a few years.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

ruckus said:


> I don't know how NASA works, but since it's government, I wonder if that's just a casualty of lowest bidder method of sourcing parts and materials.


Lowest bidder, sourcing, and no oversight...or at least qualified oversight. What's more disturbing than that though is we have lots of fighting vehicles equipped with electronics whose circuit boards and microchips came from China, and since China knows what the stuff was going to be used for do you think China made sure that we got the very best? not on your life...which it may come down to that someday.


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## ruckus (Apr 1, 2014)

Seen Serotta mentioned a few times, I'm reading on google Serotta closed doors in August, 2013.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

ruckus said:


> Seen Serotta mentioned a few times, I'm reading on google Serotta closed doors in August, 2013.


Some believe that what Serrotta did, will never again be duplicated for cost reasons.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

I blame the curved seat stays for Serotta's demise. 

Seriously, I think it had more to do with bad business decisions and marketing missteps than over investing in technology. Their business model could not adapt to the rapid change in the market.


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## crank1979 (Sep 9, 2007)

froze said:


> And lets not forget that at one time Litespeed was noted to have the best built best welded titanium bikes in the world, who owned Litespeed back then?


I can't think of a time when Litespeed was ever thought of as being the best welded titanium bikes. I heard lots of stories of frames cracking though.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Dajianshan said:


> I blame the curved seat stays for Serotta's demise.
> 
> Seriously, I think it had more to do with bad business decisions and marketing missteps than over investing in technology. Their business model could not adapt to the rapid change in the market.


Serotta went boutique and with the inflood of cheap made in China frames, they weren't gonna survive. They could have taken the more mass manufacturing way like Moots, but Ben Serotta was too much of an ideal guy to go mass production.

I don't think it was the marketing. Serotta already has the name recognition. Mention Serotta and people knew it was quality. They just couldn't afford it.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

crank1979 said:


> I can't think of a time when Litespeed was ever thought of as being the best welded titanium bikes. I heard lots of stories of frames cracking though.


In the early years Litespeed had some issues with the frames cracking and tearing due to trying to make a few of their models too light, their heavier models never had a problem. Once those issues were resolved problems all but disappeared and that's really when their reputation soared only to crash again when ABG Bicycles bought them out and refuse to honor warranties from prior to the sale, and ABG Bikes have once again restored the old history of failed frames. Merlin has also had issues, as well as any bike manufacture be it titanium, carbon fiber, aluminum, or steel, heck even the famed Rivendell had some strange failures early on which Grant resolved with later models.

Lynskey spends more time and money than most companies like Moots and some others manipulating tubes, and using a mill finish on their standard finish instead of a bead blast for their standard finish like Moots. Both use the same grade of Ti, both are American made by American craftsmen, both claim to be the stiffest, the best geometry, best handling, and best welds. 

Again not saying that Lynskey is the only TI bike to get, that's why in an earlier post I mentioned others, but if you buy the best made TI bike and spend 50% more for it you'll only get at the very most a 3% improvement. Grant even admits that his lower price Atlantis is 98% of the bike that the much more expensive Rivendell is! You find this to be true in almost any reasonable comparison, by reasonable I mean don't compare a $350 steel bike with a $5,000 custom bike, but once you get into the $2,500 range and above what you gain becomes increasingly less as the price goes up substantially more.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> Serotta went boutique and with the inflood of cheap made in China frames, they weren't gonna survive. They could have taken the more mass manufacturing way like Moots, but Ben Serotta was too much of an ideal guy to go mass production.
> 
> I don't think it was the marketing. Serotta already has the name recognition. Mention Serotta and people knew it was quality. They just couldn't afford it.


I looked at a new Serotta TI bike because my friend had one, but locally it was carrying a price tag of $7500 which I couldn't afford...but the LBS would include a free fitting on a Serotta fit machine if you bought it! GEE!! Even on close out it sold for $6200.


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

I wait for the right one now. Not saying it's the most advanced. But i am curious


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## helmy (Apr 22, 2012)

Trek_5200 said:


> Lynskey is hardly specialty a Ti builder. They've clearly gone mass market. But if you like the product, nothing wrong then.


How/why do you consider Lynskey to be "mass market"? Based on what criteria?

They are certainly not mass produced, there is a waiting period of many months for just about any bike they make. Sure they are not a "small" builder, but I don't think it's fair to say that they are "mass market". 

The advantage of a company Lynskey's size is that they will stand behind their product and are not likely to disappear in a few years.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

> Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
> Lynskey is hardly specialty a Ti builder. They've clearly gone mass market. But if you like the product, nothing wrong then.


This statement is as far from the truth as you can get, and just another person speaking through the air that comes out of their ass. If you believe their bikes are mass produced, I've got a pot of gold waiting for you at the end of the rainbow with a Leprechaun waiting there to hand it to you.

It took nearly three months for my Lynskey R255 to be hand built in Chattanooga, TN before it was delivered to me. I have personally seen their production videos. They have a first class facility with very experienced fabricators and top notch equipment to produce bends and cuts. Their welders are second to none.

My bike is built to last a lifetime. More than I can say about CF frames.


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

I have to say I found this thread, so far, to be quite americano-centric... Perhaps if the OP had specified "one I can have access too within a limited distance"...

Thankfully, R. Laufer just posted about Paduano... Is Paduano the best builder? Difficult to say! More difficult even is to say why and by which margin is Moots better than Dean or Crisp or Vanilla or Clark-Kent what-have-you.

In my humble opinion, the best you can get is probably one you can have access to. We live in Montréal; we can have a Guru or a Marinoni ti frame hand made and on specific custom tube/geometry/details... It will always beat a distant Australian Baum or a Taïwanese Rikulau (both are fine otherwise!). If I was living in France, I'd go to Le Vacon, or CMT. You get my point?

If you are up to getting the bike of your dreams, support the local guy that produces what you need. Nothing beats a custom bike...

I ride an old Litespeed Siena with a Rikulau titanium fork, and like I said I can get to two excellent ti builders within 40 min drive, but could simpy not afford the best.

-yet I wish I was living in Steamboats, Co. (read my lips, it sounds like a cow)


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## Bob Ross (Apr 18, 2006)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Ti is a pain to work with. *Too many bicycle builders think it is just another kind of steel and screw up. *It can work harden if manipulated too much.


How many of those "too many builders" are actually still employed making titanium bicycle frames? Are you talking about actual manufacturers/framebuilders, or just some kids in your high school shop class who made a mess? 

I would contend that the guys who are actively earning a living building reputable Ti frames -- e.g., Holland, Strong, Spectrum, Seven, Eriksen, Hampsten, Moots, Bedford, Crisp, Firefly, even Lynskey -- are well past the "screw up" phase; they've figured out how to work with the material to deliver a reliable bike frame that achieves the end user's desires.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

tempeteOntheRoad said:


> I have to say I found this thread, so far, to be quite americano-centric... Perhaps if the OP had specified "one I can have access too within a limited distance"...
> 
> Thankfully, R. Laufer just posted about Paduano... Is Paduano the best builder? Difficult to say! More difficult even is to say why and by which margin is Moots better than Dean or Crisp or Vanilla or Clark-Kent what-have-you.
> 
> ...


Did anyone mention Passoni?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Americanocentric? good god man I would hope those of us living in America are Americanocentric!!! Just as I would hope someone living in some other country is the same way toward the stuff made in their own country. I for one try to buy as much stuff as possible that is made in America primarily and American friendly countries secondarily, and everyone else lastly. Those of you living in another country should be doing the same thing by buying as much as possible stuff made in your own country to support your economy and jobs.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

froze said:


> Americanocentric? good god man I would hope those of us living in America are Americanocentric!!! Just as I would hope someone living in some other country is the same way toward the stuff made in their own country. I for one try to buy as much stuff as possible that is made in America primarily and American friendly countries secondarily, and everyone else lastly. Those of you living in another country should be doing the same thing by buying as much as possible stuff made in your own country to support your economy and jobs.


That's non-sense. Buy the best product at the best price. If it's American great, but that philospohy has you buying Japanese, German or Swiss so be it. When a domestic company appeals to patriotism as a reason to buy , its akin to saying please disregard price or quality. All companies should copete on price and quality and that's it.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's non-sense. Buy the best product at the best price. If it's American great, but that philospohy has you buying Japanese, German or Swiss so be it. When a domestic company appeals to patriotism as a reason to buy , its akin to saying please disregard price or quality. *All companies should copete on price and quality and that's it*.


yeah, and if they can do well on price and quality no one should cares about polution, abusing workers, manipulating markets, underhanded business practice or any social responsibility. 

Not that I think buying American is always the best way to be a socially conscious consumer (in fact some American companies suck as bad as any) but there are things other than price and quality to consider for a lot of people.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> yeah, and if they can do well on price and quality no one should cares about polution, abusing workers, manipulating markets, underhanded business practice or any social responsibility.
> 
> Not that I think buying American is always the best way to be a socially conscious consumer (in fact some American companies suck as bad as any) but there are things other than price and quality to consider for a lot of people.


So you would not own an I-phone. Correct?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> So you would not own an I-phone. Correct?


I wouldn't own an I-Phone because I don't want one. I really don't know anything about Apple's business practice.

I think it was obvious my only point is that there are things other than price and quality that businesses can and should compete on. If you don't understand or agree with that it's fine but I don't see what asking me if I would own an I-phone lends to that topic.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I wouldn't own an I-Phone because I don't want one. I really don't know anything about Apple's business practice.
> 
> I think it was obvious my only point is that there are things other than price and quality that businesses can and should compete on. If you don't understand or agree with that it's fine but I don't see what asking me if I would own an I-phone lends to that topic.


I brougth up the I-phone because it is a very popular product and at the same time Apple's labor practices in China are attrocious. Usually the people who put forth this argument give Apple a free pass. 

I can respect not buying meat from a food processor that doesn't treat animals ethically. However considering how most companies out-source and buy components, the practice of buying based on a companies behavior is all but impossible to determine. I stand by the fact that many companies have used the call to patriotism as a means to avoid having to compete on price and quality.


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## adjtogo (Nov 18, 2006)

Somebody pull out a shovel. They're going to need it!!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> That's non-sense. Buy the best product at the best price. If it's American great, but that philospohy has you buying Japanese, German or Swiss so be it. When a domestic company appeals to patriotism as a reason to buy , its akin to saying please disregard price or quality. All companies should copete on price and quality and that's it.


I'm sorry I disagree. I will not buy a product made in China IF another equal product is made somewhere else even if I have to pay a bit more. I say IF because there are a lot products made in China not made anywhere else, so a lot of the times I, we, don't have a choice. But again I don't mind buying from a friendly country but it's my secondary choice. 

We all need to support our countries workers and economy, is it patriotism? I hope so! todays world is too complicated to make it so simple the way you mentioned it to be, todays countries know they're in a competitive world and are trying to win your money and support. 

China makes cheap in price and quality products because that's what our corporations wanted, HUGE profits! Nike gets their $150 shoes built for $7.50 and with all other expenses added on pays about $49 for those shoes. Most things made in China is crappily made anyways, so why would anyone take the chance? And if you buy directly from China and you have a problem Western law will do absolutely nothing to protect you, so is that a chance you're willing to take just so you can get a "deal"? There are few things made in China by long time Chinese owned businesses where the quality is actually quite good, on par with Western counterparts at cheaper prices than Western counterparts, but that does not mean I would still run out and buy it. 

Getting back to Ti bikes, there is no reason to go to some generic branded TI bike made in China and risk getting an inferior product, you spent good money you worked hard for, so why risk failure of the product, and or sloppy manufacturing issues with no recourse?


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

or a match.

you can whack a strawman in the head with a shovel all day long, it won't do no good.


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> Did anyone mention Passoni?


Passoni and Legend are both making nice frames. But Passoni XXti frame cost €7385 with a Columbus fork. Paduano has from full titanium to what ever kind of mix you want. Paduano cost much less than Passoni and uses only grade 9 titanium, Passoni uses grade 9 and cheaper grade 5.
Passoni and Legend grind/ polish welds which take alot of time, hence cost more. Personally, i rather buy what gives me an EU produced frame at a fair price. If you are not picky with the grade of the tubes or whom the builder is, you can buy an Asian frame. Then you will even have a lower price. I like the fact that as a first buyer i have a life time warranty. I bought one model of Paduano and i am now changing to another. I don't think is a right or wrong choice, some of these are probably very alike. Go for what you believe in. But i figure i will have my ti-bike as a keeper, so i rather buy something i feel for rather than saving the very last penny on a purchase.


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## CliffordK (Jun 6, 2014)

An interesting frame style is the Colnago BiTitan.










(not my frame). Unique features include the diamond shaped top tube, and the dual downtubes.

Unforutnately, I think the frame has been discontinued, and am not sure Colnago makes any Titanium frames at this time.


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## pone (Sep 19, 2012)

that is wild. Colnago got their freak on.


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## dongringo (Dec 3, 2011)

I have a Kish and love it. The dude knows his ti.

Kish Fabrication | Handcrafted Custom Titanium Bicycles


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

CliffordK said:


> Unique features include the diamond shaped top tube, and the dual downtubes


Another unique feature is they almost all broke. That's why they were discontinued.
It is a nice design and I have thought of having someone replicate it with stronger tubing.


> not sure Colnago makes any Titanium frames at this time.


All ti Colnagos were outsourced. They sell one in Japan.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

dongringo said:


> I have a Kish and love it. The dude knows his ti.
> 
> Kish Fabrication | Handcrafted Custom Titanium Bicycles


Dang, he does make a nice TI bike that's for sure. Congrats on getting such a fine bike made by a really nice guy too.


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

Here is mine....


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## tangerineowl (Sep 1, 2012)

Wouldn't have a clue.
Today though, I was in a shop and there high up on the wall was an Enigma road bike.
6AV? frame (Apparently these 6AV -not quite sure if that is the correct term- tubesets are quite rare these days?). The thing shined like the sun.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

tangerineowl said:


> Wouldn't have a clue.
> Today though, I was in a shop and there high up on the wall was an Enigma road bike.
> 6AV? frame (Apparently these 6AV -not quite sure if that is the correct term- tubesets are quite rare these days?). The thing shined like the sun.


6/4 is the alloy. (90% Ti, 6% Aluminum, 4% Vanadium)

It is very hard to get as the the aerospace military-industrial-complex is sucking up all the 6/4 it can buy. Which makes it prohibitively expensive, and arguably not worth paying the premium for. Which is why Ti bikes have fallen back on 3/2.5 AV alloys. There's isn't any visual difference you can spot, what you saw was just the finishing treatment.


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

Marc said:


> 6/4 is the alloy. (90% Ti, 6% Aluminum, 4% Vanadium)
> 
> It is very hard to get as the the aerospace military-industrial-complex is sucking up all the 6/4 it can buy. Which makes it prohibitively expensive, and arguably not worth paying the premium for. Which is why Ti bikes have fallen back on 3/2.5 AV alloys. There's isn't any visual difference you can spot, what you saw was just the finishing treatment.


Most high end titanium bikes uses both grade 9 (3/2.5 medium strength) and grade 5 (6/4 stronger than 9). The grade 5 titanium is sheets if i am correct and usually in top tube and down tube and maybe also seat mast tube. Instead of using grade 5, Paduano uses carbon tubes. You can have all from standard carbon, or PBO (a bit elastic) to the stiffest Boron tubes.
My bike is with top tube and down tube in carbon with boron inlays and rest is grade 9 titanium. I guess this is also why a few makers use a mix of carbon (tubes) and titanium.
There are people complaining of the mix material frames, personally i see no problems with it. Bike feels nice to ride, it does not flex and it does not feel harsh. It really has a feeling better than those carbon frames i have tested, in a sense a bit organic or a bit fluid. 
Only thing it is not, is super light as the newer carbon frames.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Actually according to industry there has been more broken frames with 6/4 vs 3/2.5 due primarily because of the fact it is much more difficult to weld 6/4 and the frames have been breaking at the welds regardless of the fact that 6/4 is stronger than 3/2.5 in general, but because it is stronger manufactures will make the tubing walls thinner to make it lighter and by doing so brings the strength back down to the same level as 3/2.5. Also because the military is demanding a lot of the 6/4 it makes purchasing a 6/4 TI bike more expensive due to the difficulty of getting the stuff.

Spectrum Cycles | Materials


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

froze said:


> Actually according to industry there has been more broken frames with 6/4 vs 3/2.5 due primarily because of the fact it is much more difficult to weld 6/4 and the frames have been breaking at the welds regardless of the fact that 6/4 is stronger than 3/2.5 in general, but because it is stronger manufactures will make the tubing walls thinner to make it lighter and by doing so brings the strength back down to the same level as 3/2.5. Also because the military is demanding a lot of the 6/4 it makes purchasing a 6/4 TI bike more expensive due to the difficulty of getting the stuff.
> 
> Spectrum Cycles | Materials


It seems titanium frames/ bikes has narrowed down to a small niche market these days.
Carbon is what pros uses and most believe this is the best, if not only way to go. I wanted a frame that was a great size for me, offering a better ride feel (being stiff and have proper give) than my previos bike and also would not damage as easy as carbon. A classic keeper i guess! As most might have noticed, each manufacturer often claim they have re-invented the wheel and some feed very nice laid out info why we should buy the frames they manufacture. There seems to be many nice frames. I am no expert and would never claim to be, but it seems it might not be super smart to build a frame too light. Be it carbon or titanium. They will be less durable and seems to withstand stress to a lesser degree. They also risk to flex where we would not want them to. 
I am no fan in the all out super stiff frames, as it simply become too harsh.
Mega wattage sprinters might need it during races, but how is the feel in the bike really!?
If i bought a second bike it would probably be a carbon. But if Baum or Passoni (titanium frames) or even Rolo (carbon) would like to add a frame, i would gladly ride those to.


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## Dajianshan (Jul 15, 2007)

Of the professional riders I know, they don't necessarily prefer carbon fiber. Some pro riders buy into the stiffness tag, but I know a few guys who lust after custom titanium over their sponsor's bikes. You'll have to take my word for it as I don't want to get anyone in trouble with a sponsor. The names that come up are Firefly, Seven, Baum and Guru as companies that make performance bikes from titanium thst even a pro would want.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Dajianshan said:


> Of the professional riders I know, they don't necessarily prefer carbon fiber. Some pro riders buy into the stiffness tag, but I know a few guys who lust after custom titanium over their sponsor's bikes. You'll have to take my word for it as I don't want to get anyone in trouble with a sponsor. The names that come up are Firefly, Seven, Baum and Guru as companies that make performance bikes from titanium thst even a pro would want.


If you travel a great deal with a bike constantly boxing it and unboxing it , etc then Titanium makes some sense, even if you are padding it with the world's largest supply of black tape and styrofoam as well.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

froze said:


> Actually according to industry there has been more broken frames with 6/4 vs 3/2.5 due primarily because of the fact it is much more difficult to weld 6/4 and the frames have been breaking at the welds regardless of the fact that 6/4 is stronger than 3/2.5 in general, but because it is stronger manufactures will make the tubing walls thinner to make it lighter and by doing so brings the strength back down to the same level as 3/2.5. Also because the military is demanding a lot of the 6/4 it makes purchasing a 6/4 TI bike more expensive due to the difficulty of getting the stuff.
> 
> Spectrum Cycles | Materials



From your link, "In short, I'll say this, 6-4 titanium alloy has no advantage (other than for marketing) over 3-2.5 alloy when it comes to bicycle tubing applications". Also don't see builders such as Firefly, Seven, Eriksen,Spectrum doing 6-4, and these guys know tubing, so not a good choice according to the guys who know. Of course for people that like a high number go with 6-4....


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## Rickard Laufer (Jan 1, 2013)

Dajianshan said:


> Of the professional riders I know, they don't necessarily prefer carbon fiber. Some pro riders buy into the stiffness tag, but I know a few guys who lust after custom titanium over their sponsor's bikes. You'll have to take my word for it as I don't want to get anyone in trouble with a sponsor. The names that come up are Firefly, Seven, Baum and Guru as companies that make performance bikes from titanium thst even a pro would want.


Interesting! I heard this from another source to, but i can say he was and still is biased.
Well, i am happy i bought exactly what i have even if this is actually my second Paduano frame. I changed because i wanted slightly different size/ fit. I think i will only look at wheels in the future and perhaps groupsets in the long run. Overhere, i see only carbon bikes and some aluminium. Many think all ti-frames are flexing (noodles), but they are dead wrong.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Trek_5200 said:


> From your link, "In short, I'll say this, 6-4 titanium alloy has no advantage (other than for marketing) over 3-2.5 alloy when it comes to bicycle tubing applications". Also don't see builders such as Firefly, Seven, Eriksen,Spectrum doing 6-4, and these guys know tubing, so not a good choice according to the guys who know. Of course for people that like a high number go with 6-4....


That's correct, that's why I posted the site instead of just saying it here because the doubters would have argued against that.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Rickard Laufer said:


> It seems titanium frames/ bikes has narrowed down to a small niche market these days.
> Carbon is what pros uses and most believe this is the best, if not only way to go. I wanted a frame that was a great size for me, offering a better ride feel (being stiff and have proper give) than my previos bike and also would not damage as easy as carbon. A classic keeper i guess! As most might have noticed, each manufacturer often claim they have re-invented the wheel and some feed very nice laid out info why we should buy the frames they manufacture. There seems to be many nice frames. I am no expert and would never claim to be, but it seems it might not be super smart to build a frame too light. Be it carbon or titanium. They will be less durable and seems to withstand stress to a lesser degree. They also risk to flex where we would not want them to.
> I am no fan in the all out super stiff frames, as it simply become too harsh.
> Mega wattage sprinters might need it during races, but how is the feel in the bike really!?
> If i bought a second bike it would probably be a carbon. But if Baum or Passoni (titanium frames) or even Rolo (carbon) would like to add a frame, i would gladly ride those to.


Pros? First off carbon is lighter than TI so it makes sense that would be the case and so for racing purposes CF is the best as you say, but you forgot to mention one very important fact about pros and their bikes they race...they get all their bikes and equipment for free, if something breaks they get another free whatever. When was the last time you got all your bikes for free? Using pros as an example for real life riders is just plain nuts. Both steel and TI can be built to be as light as CF but it makes the frame too expensive especially in the case of TI, but be equally if not stronger than CF. Rodriguez has been making a steel bike called the Outlaw for many years and that bike weighs less then the UCI required weight limit thus it's illegal to race in a UCI sponsored race by over a pound! But Everti Eagle all TI bike weighs just 11.4 pounds fully equipped, again illegal by almost 4 pounds! Of course CF could be made to be just as light or even lighter but then it gets way to fragile for street use, with the Rodriguez or the Everti you can ride it on the street and never have to worry about it.

I think if UCI ever decided to drop their minimal weight to say 12 pound range you would see a lot of TI bikes in the pro ranks because CF would not be able to hold up to the punishment at that weight. Just an opinion of course.


TI is a lifetime bike frame material unlike CF or aluminum, and it's stronger than either including steel. Watch my videos below and compare the strength of the 3 big materials used in frame construction.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

If Ti were so great then why do most Ti bikes have carbon forks, the most stressed part of the bike? Just saying...


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> If Ti were so great then why do most Ti bikes have carbon forks, the most stressed part of the bike? Just saying...


You only have to look at the cost of a Ti fork to answer that. Not that I think Ti is the best material for a fork, but if it was comparable in cost to carbon then it would be used a lot more for all sorts of things.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

froze said:


> Pros? First off carbon is lighter than TI so it makes sense that would be the case and so for racing purposes CF is the best as you say, but you forgot to mention one very important fact about pros and their bikes they race...they get all their bikes and equipment for free, if something breaks they get another free whatever. When was the last time you got all your bikes for free? Using pros as an example for real life riders is just plain nuts. Both steel and TI can be built to be as light as CF but it makes the frame too expensive especially in the case of TI, but be equally if not stronger than CF. Rodriguez has been making a steel bike called the Outlaw for many years and that bike weighs less then the UCI required weight limit thus it's illegal to race in a UCI sponsored race by over a pound! But Everti Eagle all TI bike weighs just 11.4 pounds fully equipped, again illegal by almost 4 pounds! Of course CF could be made to be just as light or even lighter but then it gets way to fragile for street use, with the Rodriguez or the Everti you can ride it on the street and never have to worry about it.
> 
> *I think if UCI ever decided to drop their minimal weight to say 12 pound range you would see a lot of TI bikes in the pro ranks because CF would not be able to hold up to the punishment at that weight. Just an opinion of course.*
> 
> ...





mfdemicco said:


> If Ti were so great then why do most Ti bikes have carbon forks, the most stressed part of the bike? Just saying...



No they wouldn't.

The only bike companies that can afford to sponsor UCI/pro teams are the largest of the large bike companies....whose sole interest is profit margin. And welding Titanium is a low-profit-margin activity that requires skilled artisan labor. 

Carbon fiber is dirt cheap in raw materials, easy to work with, dirt cheap to produce a million frames once you have one mold, manufacture can be done with a bare minimum of barely-skilled labor. It is the perfect high-margin product, which is what every CEO/board has wet dreams of. And lastly, people are willing to pay stupidly expensive prices for products that cost pennies on the dollar to produce. Titanium is none of this. 

The metal-bike-frame days in the UCI protour are gone never to return.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> You only have to look at the cost of a Ti fork to answer that. Not that I think Ti is the best material for a fork, but if it was comparable in cost to carbon then it would be used a lot more for all sorts of things.


Cost doesn't seem to be a factor with high end bikes.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

mfdemicco said:


> Cost doesn't seem to be a factor with high end bikes.


The price of high-end bikes may not be a factor, but the cost of building them is.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Marc said:


> No they wouldn't.
> 
> The only bike companies that can afford to sponsor UCI/pro teams are the largest of the large bike companies....whose sole interest is profit margin. And welding Titanium is a low-profit-margin activity that requires skilled artisan labor.
> 
> ...


Good point and very true, but will the future prove you correct? I don't know, only time will tell. Personally I think a new type of material will arise which will replace CF as the new kid on the block. I do find it interesting though that so far no CF bike manufacture has come up with a reliable 11 1/2 pound bike, only TI has done this, but like you said the expense may be too great for good enough profits to be realized.

There have been a few bikes that did make TI forks for their TI bikes, Titan was one such company; but making a TI fork is a very expensive proposition due to requiring expensive computerized finite element analysis which is just to much of an expense for a small TI builder to get into.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

froze said:


> ...so far no CF bike manufacture has come up with a reliable 11 1/2 pound bike...


There are a few carbon bikes of this weight or less; can you provide some evidence that they are unreliable?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> There are a few carbon bikes of this weight or less; can you provide some evidence that they are unreliable?


You tell me then why some of the lighter bikes have a rider weight limit, and these aren't the 11 pound jobs either. The average UCI legal 15 pound bike has a 200 pound weight limit, which is why TDF riders are at 130 to 180 pounds at the most with the average at 156.5. One can only assume 2 things about the 15 pound weight limit, either UCI and the bike manufactures know they can't build a race reliable bike much less than that, or UCI is stuck in the caveman era of cycling.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

froze said:


> You tell me then why some of the lighter bikes have a rider weight limit...


I'm sure weight limits are mostly to cover the manufacurers arses in case it turns out that they made a mistake in the design.

Consider that the lightest carbon frames are around 0.6-0.7kg, while the lightest Ti frames are 0.8-0.9kg (and it's very rare to get any <1kg at all). What do you think the rider weight limit on a 600g Ti frame would be?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

froze said:


> Good point and very true, but will the future prove you correct? I don't know, only time will tell. Personally I think a new type of material will arise which will replace CF as the new kid on the block. I do find it interesting though that so far no CF bike manufacture has come up with a reliable 11 1/2 pound bike, only TI has done this, but like you said the expense may be too great for good enough profits to be realized.
> 
> There have been a few bikes that did make TI forks for their TI bikes, Titan was one such company; but making a TI fork is a very expensive proposition due to requiring expensive computerized finite element analysis which is just to much of an expense for a small TI builder to get into.


The only way a new material will replace carbon fiber on mainline bike frames is if it is dirt cheap in raw material, easy to work with, and doesn't require specialized skilled labor. It may happen sometime, but whatever that wunder-material is it will not be a traditional metal almost guaranteed. As traditional metal-working is a low-margin process.

And worse, any CFRP place-taker will see another round huge price spikes to the consumer. For minimal benefit to the consumer. CFRP frames can already be undesirably stiff or not for low $$$.


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## HeadsorTailswind (Jan 22, 2014)

Trek_5200 said:


> If you travel a great deal with a bike constantly boxing it and unboxing it , etc then Titanium makes some sense, even if you are padding it with the world's largest supply of black tape and styrofoam as well.


I'm guessing if you want to travel you'd specify S&S couplers.

Titanium makes sense if you want a custom bike that can eat up centuries (though tire inflation/size as well as your shorts will have a greater impact), or one that will not crack should it fail. However, it's easy to fall into the pit of focusing on the technical aspects of biking instead of going biking.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> I'm sure weight limits are mostly to cover the manufacurers arses in case it turns out that they made a mistake in the design.
> 
> Consider that the lightest carbon frames are around 0.6-0.7kg, while the lightest Ti frames are 0.8-0.9kg (and it's very rare to get any <1kg at all). What do you think the rider weight limit on a 600g Ti frame would be?


I can't even find any manufacture willing to post rider weight limits on their frames. 

Your differences in weights of the lightest CF and the lightest TI is barely 7 ounces, hardly enough to jump up and down about. The lightest production TI bike I could find was a Everti fully equipped at 11.4 pounds with a 25 year warranty, vs 13.5 for steel, vs the lightest production CF made by Dimar at 10.86 pounds, less than a 1/2 pound difference between it and the TI and only 2 years for the Dimar frame warranty. Do warranties mean anything? perhaps not, but if a company is unwilling to back their frame for a longer time then there must be some question as to whether or not they have faith in their frames. Aluminium were known to have a finite life expectancy so manufactures warrantied those frames typically from 5 to 10 years with a very few going out for life. However a lifetime warranty has very tricky wording so to get anything warrantied 40 years down the road for example would be a extreme miracle in my opinion; bike materials change for example I bought a Trek 660 new in 84 with a lifetime warranty on the frame, if that frame were to break today and I could prove it was a problem with workmanship and or material would Trek replace it with another steel lugged frame? They can't, they no longer make those type of frames.

speaking of metal never to be used in bikes again, there was some talk a few years ago about liquid metal, named not because it is a liquid state but it can be heat formed like thermoplastic in a liquid form, this stuff is already being used in some high end golf clubs and watches, and the claim is that it would be lighter than aluminum or titanium but stronger while being less to build something out of than even carbon fiber, so is there a future in this technology for bike frames? We'll have to wait for more of the future to come upon us to find out.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

froze said:


> I can't even find any manufacture willing to post rider weight limits on their frames.
> 
> Your differences in weights of the lightest CF and the lightest TI is barely 7 ounces, hardly enough to jump up and down about. The lightest production TI bike I could find was a Everti fully equipped at 11.4 pounds with a 25 year warranty, vs 13.5 for steel, vs the lightest production CF made by Dimar at 10.86 pounds, less than a 1/2 pound difference between it and the TI and only 2 years for the Dimar frame warranty. Do warranties mean anything? perhaps not, but if a company is unwilling to back their frame for a longer time then there must be some question as to whether or not they have faith in their frames. Aluminium were known to have a finite life expectancy so manufactures warrantied those frames typically from 5 to 10 years with a very few going out for life. However a lifetime warranty has very tricky wording so to get anything warrantied 40 years down the road for example would be a extreme miracle in my opinion; bike materials change for example I bought a Trek 660 new in 84 with a lifetime warranty on the frame, if that frame were to break today and I could prove it was a problem with workmanship and or material would Trek replace it with another steel lugged frame? They can't, they no longer make those type of frames.
> 
> speaking of metal never to be used in bikes again, there was some talk a few years ago about liquid metal, named not because it is a liquid state but it can be heat formed like thermoplastic in a liquid form, this stuff is already being used in some high end golf clubs and watches, and the claim is that it would be lighter than aluminum or titanium but stronger while being less to build something out of than even carbon fiber, so is there a future in this technology for bike frames? We'll have to wait for more of the future to come upon us to find out.


I can think of one OTTOMH, TBH only one...

The new Emonda SLR Uber-Trek has a weight limit of like 200# although it is not stated on their page (the saddle and wheels both are very weight limited but not the frame)...and on their Q&A page they specify the following:



Trek said:


> Is there a rider weight limit for Trek bikes?
> Yes, we have the following weight limits on our bikes:
> 
> 
> ...


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

HeadsorTailswind said:


> I'm guessing if you want to travel you'd specify S&S couplers.


S$S (notice the $ instead of the &, because those couplers cost a lot of money, around $1500 extra to have a bike built with those). That's why you see most people traveling to other countries on airplanes with their bikes in a standard size bike shipping box or a case made for traveling instead of using couplers. It's far cheaper to spend 30 minutes at tops to install handlebars, wheels, pedals, and the seat with post!


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Marc said:


> I can think of one OTTOMH, TBH only one...
> 
> The new Emonda SLR Uber-Trek has a weight limit of like 200# although it is not stated on their page (the saddle and wheels both are very weight limited but not the frame)...and on their Q&A page they specify the following:


But is that ALL their bikes even the professional racing bikes? or just their regular production line? A lot of pro racing bikes are actually custom made for the rider depending on the riders weight and height.

By the way the Trek Domaine 6.2 may have a 200 pound limit, not sure, but read this about an actual experience: TREK Domane a full on race bike yet user friendly machine for everyone | Velo Aficionado


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

froze said:


> ...Your differences in weights of the lightest CF and the lightest TI is barely 7 ounces, hardly enough to jump up and down about...


You claimed that Ti could be "built to be as light as CF [...] but be equally if not stronger than CF", and yet no one has dared to make a Ti frame that's less than *35%* heavier than a light carbon frame. That is a substantial relative difference. Despite this difference in weight, there is no evidence that those light carbon frames are any less reliable.



froze said:


> ...Do warranties mean anything?..


No.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> You claimed that Ti could be "built to be as light as CF [...] but be equally if not stronger than CF", and yet no one has dared to make a Ti frame that's less than *35%* heavier than a light carbon frame. That is a substantial relative difference. Despite this difference in weight, there is no evidence that those light carbon frames are any less reliable.
> 
> 
> No.


It's not because no one dares for fear, it's because it will cost too much, CF can be done cheap in China by low paid labors. You want to talk about something odd, where are all the CF bikes for heavy loaded touring?


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

froze said:


> It's not because no one dares for fear, it's because it will cost too much..



Go to a titanium frame builder and ask them to build a 600g frame, at any cost.
Walk away disappointed.



froze said:


> ...You want to talk about something odd, where are all the CF bikes for heavy loaded touring?


No one sells a dedicated carbon touring frame, but you can get ones with suitable eyelets, and a few people do go touring on them. Carbon tandems also exist, demonstrating that it's strong enough.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> Go to a titanium frame builder and ask them to build a 600g frame, at any cost.
> Walk away disappointed.
> 
> No one sells a dedicated carbon touring frame, but you can get ones with suitable eyelets, and a few people do go touring on them. Carbon tandems also exist, demonstrating that it's strong enough.


Please make sense when you post. No manufacture will make a 600g TI frame custom or not due to fact it would cost too much money. It's like I'm talking to a wall. Since you want to talk stupid, you go to a CF manufacture and tell them you want a complete touring bike made for heavy long distance touring. By the way, if CF was so great and so strong and so cheap to build touring people would embrace them like flies to schit.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

froze said:


> Please make sense when you post. No manufacture will make a 600g TI frame custom or not due to fact it would cost too much money. It's like I'm talking to a wall...


People spend tens of thousands on custom bikes. If that's not enough then it effectively can't be done. I'm sure new technology will come along to allow lighter Ti frames (like the 3D printing I linked to earlier), but similar advances in carbon tech will occur too, so it ends up with basic physics: carbon fibre has a higher strength-to-weight ratio, so you can build a lighter frame for a given strength.



froze said:


> ...Since you want to talk stupid, you go to a CF manufacture and tell them you want a complete touring bike made for heavy long distance touring. By the way, if CF was so great and so strong and so cheap to build touring people would embrace them like flies to schit....


Like I said, people have toured on carbon frames. Touring bikes are almost all steel because it's tough (different from strength), which is desirable for touring, but not necessary for other road bikes. Also their riders tend to be more conservative than roadies, partly of necessity (it's harder to find a composite repair specialist than a welder when in the middle of nowhere). Even if carbon isn't an ideal material for it, it can be done, unlike building a Ti frame as light as carbon.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr Evil said:


> People spend tens of thousands on custom bikes. If that's not enough then it effectively can't be done. I'm sure new technology will come along to allow lighter Ti frames (like the 3D printing I linked to earlier), but similar advances in carbon tech will occur too, so it ends up with basic physics: carbon fibre has a higher strength-to-weight ratio, so you can build a lighter frame for a given strength.


 By the way, since money is no object in this discussion, here is the lightest bike in the world currently: The world's lightest bike - BikeRadar The CF frame is 642.5 grams, but note the price. Anything can be done if the price is right.

And what you said about steel being used on touring bikes is true, it is tough and it can be welded should by chance something happen. CF and TI would almost certainly have to be sent far away and the rider waiting for weeks perhaps to get it back, AL could be welded locally, I had a friend who broke his AL Cannondale touring bike, some local had the equipment to weld it back, but they had to reinforce the stays to the seat post with braces made of steel and then zipped tied and wrapped in duct tape, the bike survived till he got home and broke again on a leisurely ride at home. Not sure why the weld didn't hold up or why the braces had to be used, maybe due to the tricky place where the breaks occurred.


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## skinnie (Oct 15, 2013)

Italianrider76 said:


> What about some of these Italian beauties form Carrera and SOMEC?


Sorry to bump this thread, but anyone knows anything about this Carrera Scatto?
I have a Carrera Nitro SL (carbon frame) and it is very confortable yet sufficiently stiff, but would like to switch to Titanium and I can get this frame at a nice price.
About builders, I only can comment on my case, I have a 2013 Commençal Skin Ti 26 MTB frame, welded at Ora Engineering Taiwan, and for me it is pretty amazing.
The frame is fabulous, very stiff in the headtube and BB but confortable at the same time.
Here is an "article" about Ora Eng. since they weld for Genesis also:
A Very British Engineering Challenge Pt.3 - Who, what & how (...bloody much)? | Blog | Genesis Bikes


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