# King Eddy spouts off about Conti drug ban, has point



## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

I read this article just this morning on Cycling news...

Merckx Deplores "excessive" Punishment In Contador Ban | Cyclingnews.com

While I don't agree with Merckx that Contador's ban was harsh, and think he's a snivelling little cheat (Alberto, not Eddy), I do wonder about the stance on drug testing in pro cycling compared to other pro sports, like European football, American Football, Athletics, etc.

Are the bigger money sports avoiding their share of the anti-drug spotlight compared to pro cycling? What are your thoughts?


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## jpick915 (May 7, 2006)

I believe this is the wrong forum for this discussion and the thread will soon be moved.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

jpick915 said:


> I believe this is the wrong forum for this discussion and the thread will soon be moved.


And we have arrived!


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

gordy748 said:


> Are the bigger money sports avoiding their share of the anti-drug spotlight compared to pro cycling? What are your thoughts?


Yes.

Welcome to the Doping Forum. Try not to get any on you.


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

gordy748 said:


> I read this article just this morning on Cycling news...
> 
> Merckx Deplores "excessive" Punishment In Contador Ban | Cyclingnews.com
> 
> ...


Why only the name calling for Contador? Merckx was busted more times for doping than Contador has been so far, and on the first two even had some of the typical types of denials and excuses that current dopers use.

They're both cheats. One is still the greatest rider of all time. One could still be great depending how he recovers from his suspension. That's pro cycling...

I think the bigger money sports definitely handle doping much differently. Whether it's better or not depends on your desired outcome.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

nate said:


> Why only the name calling for Contador? Merckx was busted more times for doping than Contador has been so far, and on the first two even had some of the typical types of denials and excuses that current dopers use.
> 
> They're both cheats. One is still the greatest rider of all time. One could still be great depending how he recovers from his suspension. That's pro cycling...
> 
> I think the bigger money sports definitely handle doping much differently. Whether it's better or not depends on your desired outcome.


The name calling for Contador is due to his status...nobody cares about a domestique getting busted. Merckx was a doper, knows doping is still rampant in the peloton and is ticked that they gave a two year ban to Contador for getting caught with such a small amount given everybody else is doing it.

As for the other sports...they know better than to bite the hand that feeds them...cycling hasn't figured this out yet.

If the other sports took testing to the same level as cycling many, many of their star players could turn up a positive result...thus creating a media mess and loss of sponsors, which would hurt the league. So you test...just not hard and let the players know it's coming so they will be clean for the test. You get great performances, keep your sponsors and everybody makes money.

Cycling on the other hand just about killed it's self with it's testing program...sponsors were dropping like flies and still are. Heck the best team in the world couldn't find a sponsor because of it (Highroad) and had to disband. 

You either have morals or money...but it's hard to have both :thumbsup:


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## rcharrette (Mar 27, 2007)

*Sad*



Wookiebiker said:


> The name calling for Contador is due to his status...nobody cares about a domestique getting busted. Merckx was a doper, knows doping is still rampant in the peloton and is ticked that they gave a two year ban to Contador for getting caught with such a small amount given everybody else is doing it.
> 
> As for the other sports...they know better than to bite the hand that feeds them...cycling hasn't figured this out yet.
> 
> ...


As a father of a young boy mad about cycling I really hope this is not true. I fuel his fire to one day be a pro rider (maybe, maybe not) but not at the cost of pumping sh!t into himself to be at their level. I'll take morals and look to our children's future.
Pro cycling is never going to go away. With these scandals it may never be as big as the NFL but who cares. Lets stay with the soul of the sport and keep the posers out anyway. Most pro riders don't do it to get rich anyway, it's for love of the bike. Let's make them do it clean.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Its not keeping people from NFL football, Euro league football, the NBA or MLB all of which are even more heavily laden with dopers, have much lighter penalties (especially any sport with "football" in it). Doping isn't right, but you don't see the hysterics which cycling and track and field seem to have to ensure. 

Remember which names were buried in Operation Puerto (Euro footballers). Remember when Shawn Merriman got popped for steroid use and still went to the NFL Pro Bowl later THAT YEAR. 

Sadly, if someone won the TdF they were on _something_. Except for the rider you like- I am sure whomever that is they were the magic exception. But everyone else probably was on whatever "program" was popular/available at the time.


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## Wookiebiker (Sep 5, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Its not keeping people from NFL football, Euro league football, the NBA or MLB all of which are even more heavily laden with dopers, have much lighter penalties (especially any sport with "football" in it). Doping isn't right, but you don't see the hysterics which cycling and track and field seem to have to ensure.
> 
> Remember which names were buried in Operation Puerto (Euro footballers). Remember when Shawn Merriman got popped for steroid use and still went to the NFL Pro Bowl later THAT YEAR.
> 
> Sadly, if someone won the TdF they were on _something_. Except for the rider you like- I am sure whomever that is they were the magic exception. But everyone else probably was on whatever "program" was popular/available at the time.


This is the sad truth about professional athletics...They all dope on one level or another. The problem is people are unwilling to admit it or believe it.

*To rcharrette:*

It's great that your kid is involved in cycling and I hope he does well and has the talent to go pro should he so decide. Just be aware that drugs in sports is "Rampant" and it's not limited to cycling or any other sport.

At some point in time if he's good enough the decision will likely have to be made...Dope and make a a fair living to "A Lot" of money in the sport, or not dope and be a local domestic pro earning little money and working part time to help pay the bills...and even many (but not all) of those guys are using whatever they can get their hands on...legal or not.

The key to remember is sports are entertainment...and a job for those involved. When it comes to jobs the line of morals gets crossed all the time, regardless of the sports world or the business world. All one has to do is look at Wall Street, Pharmaceutical companies, big Tech firms, POLITICS, to see how much corruption there is out there and how few morals there are.

Just because somebody doesn't use PED's doesn't mean they are not lacking morals in other areas.

Like I said...you can either be rich and lack morals or be poor and have morals...but it's rare to have both. This is regardless of whether they are in the sporting world or not.

Pick your poison and go with it 

In the end...teach your kid right from wrong and he should be OK. That's the ultimate key. Also keep in mind the dividing line between money and happiness is around $80,000 per year in the United States, so if he can get there with good morals...he's good to go


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Wow lost some respect for Eddy. He said, "It's very sad for [Contador] and for cycling in general. It's as if somebody wanted to kill cycling. I'm very surprised and disgusted. It's bad for everyone, for the reputation of cycling, for the sponsors."

I'm very surprised and disgusted by *his* view


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

rcharrette said:


> As a father of a young boy mad about cycling I really hope this is not true. I fuel his fire to one day be a pro rider (maybe, maybe not) but not at the cost of pumping sh!t into himself to be at their level. I'll take morals and look to our children's future.
> Pro cycling is never going to go away. With these scandals it may never be as big as the NFL but who cares. Lets stay with the soul of the sport and keep the posers out anyway. Most pro riders don't do it to get rich anyway, it's for love of the bike. Let's make them do it clean.


You sound new to cycling. This stuff isn't new one bit.

The thing about professional sports it that there's WAY more money than cycling and the general public really doesn't care. They still watch and pay $$$ for tickets. Cycling tries to be more transparent.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> Cycling tries to be more transparent.


Hardly. 

Cycling......The UCI, Teams, DS', Riders, and Doctors..... have worked hard for decades to be anything but transparent. They pretend the issue does not exist, invent increasingly ridiculous excuses and for decades pushed an arms race based on blood bags and syringes. This only makes the issue worse

Police action and WADA have been the primary drivers behind any change in the sport, not the sport itself. 

While doping can certainly help many of the skill sports but nothing like it can for sports like Weight lifting, Cycling, and Track. It is no surprised that year after year these sports lead WADA's list of percentage of positives.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

You may be the king of arguing, but I don't think the football or baseball are trying to catch or stop doping, other than busting 1-2 people every now and then.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

spade2you said:


> You may be the king of arguing, but I don't think the football or baseball are trying to catch or stop doping, other than busting 1-2 people every now and then.


Post, not poster. 

I did not say that the MLB was doing anything, Just that cycling is hardly transparent. Maybe MLB would do something if pitchers suddenly had something that could take their fastball from 93 to 101 mph? 

Doping is a relatively recent part of MLB and the NHL. I expect they will go through the same trajectory that Cycling and track have experienced. The NFL is hopeless, it will never change


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## zoikz (Sep 5, 2003)

If you're in love with bike racing, you've fallen for a very sexy, beautiful woman with a drug problem. She may go through rehab, but she's always going to be a drug addict and chances are she's going to have a hard time with temptation.You may have the ideal of what she is or was, but she is what she is.


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Post, not poster.
> 
> I did not say that the MLB was doing anything, Just that cycling is hardly transparent. Maybe MLB would do something if pitchers suddenly had something that could take their fastball from 93 to 101 mph?
> 
> Doping is a relatively recent part of MLB and the NHL. I expect they will go through the same trajectory that Cycling and track have experienced. The NFL is hopeless, it will never change


I don't believe doping in baseball is any newer than any other sport. While nobody is throwing 120mph fastballs, clearly doping for strength has changed hitting performance (McGuire, Sosa, Bonds). One of MLB's most vaunted records, HR's per season, was broken by these three guys, two were proven to be on the sauce. This should have been one of the biggest scandals in sports history. One of them has a cushy job as a batting coach in St. Louis, where he played. Nobody cares. 

Presumably doping has improved pitcher's recovery too. They have wear and tear issues in their throwing arms.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

davidka said:


> I don't believe doping in baseball is any newer than any other sport. While nobody is throwing 120mph fastballs, clearly doping for strength has changed hitting performance (McGuire, Sosa, Bonds). One of MLB's most vaunted records, HR's per season, was broken by these three guys, two were proven to be on the sauce. This should have been one of the biggest scandals in sports history. One of them has a cushy job as a batting coach in St. Louis, where he played. Nobody cares.
> 
> Presumably doping has improved pitcher's recovery too. They have wear and tear issues in their throwing arms.


There has been doping in cycling for a century. How many MLB teams ran organized, team wide, doping programs? How many ran a transfusion program for key parts of the season? how many MLB team doctors make millions providing doping services? In cycling doping can provide a huge difference for a team, in MLB the gains are marginal in the W-L %

While we like to pretend that cycling is doing so much but the reality is few sports have the deep, ingrained doping culture of cycling. Few see such a huge benefit, and few have a Fed like UCI, who enabled and ignored doping for years


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

Geez, Eddy's point is, IF YOU UNLEASHED THE UCI VAMPIRES ON 
a) Soccer - Football - futbol
b) American Football
c) Basketball
d) Baseball
e) Hockey
f) probably tennis
g) most likely golf

you'd have no leagues left
most professional sports don't consider getting a cortizone treatment for a sore joint 'doping'
but standard aid for ailing pitchers / QBs / etc.....

In these sports a guys get popped for roid use and get a 6 game suspension, Cycling is 2 years
Eddy has a point

Cycling doesn't have any more of a drug problem than any other sport. They just test and enforce more.
Why? No players union for pro cyclists


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Also _much_ less money.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*clearly you've never*



Doctor Falsetti said:


> There has been doping in cycling for a century. How many MLB teams ran organized, team wide, doping programs? How many ran a transfusion program for key parts of the season? how many MLB team doctors make millions providing doping services? In cycling doping can provide a huge difference for a team, in MLB the gains are marginal in the W-L %
> 
> While we like to pretend that cycling is doing so much but the reality is few sports have the deep, ingrained doping culture of cycling. Few see such a huge benefit, and few have a Fed like UCI, who enabled and ignored doping for years


spent any time with football players
those guys start saucing in High School

the 'weight room' culture has existed as long, if not longer than cyclings

post strike baseball was struggling, it took dope and a home run derby to win America's heart back


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

Cableguy said:


> I'm very surprised and disgusted by *his* view


I'm surprised you're surprised, Eddy comes from the old days which is like pre-2005 when everyone doped and it was just part of the game. What's crazy about the times when Eddy was racing was the drugs probably weren't even all that effective, and still it was endemic in the sport.


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## Dwayne Barry (Feb 16, 2003)

davidka said:


> I don't believe doping in baseball is any newer than any other sport. While nobody is throwing 120mph fastballs, clearly doping for strength has changed hitting performance (McGuire, Sosa, Bonds). One of MLB's most vaunted records, HR's per season, was broken by these three guys, two were proven to be on the sauce. This should have been one of the biggest scandals in sports history. One of them has a cushy job as a batting coach in St. Louis, where he played. Nobody cares.
> 
> Presumably doping has improved pitcher's recovery too. They have wear and tear issues in their throwing arms.


What's surprising about baseball is it appears that the doping came in so late. McGuire, Sosa, etc. are a full generation after steroids became commonly used in bodybuilding and the like.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> Cycling doesn't have any more of a drug problem than any other sport. They just test and enforce more.
> Why? No players union for pro cyclists


Nope. Cycling is under WADA testing rules, the NFL is not an Olympic sport so they are not. The sport (UCI) fought this for years and was the last sport to sign the WADA code prior to the 2004 Olympics


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

atpjunkie said:


> spent any time with football players
> those guys start saucing in High School
> 
> the 'weight room' culture has existed as long, if not longer than cyclings
> ...


Where did I write that the NFL did not have a doping problem? 

Sorry, the "Everyone else is doing it" Defense did not work with Mom and it does not work with sports. 

Soccer remains the most tested sport based on volume of tests and cycling has the highest percentage of positives tests.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Dwayne Barry said:


> I'm surprised you're surprised, Eddy comes from the old days which is like pre-2005 when everyone doped and it was just part of the game.


Not to be rude, but I just honestly have no idea how this is a good reason for Merckx to support doping. Confused.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Cableguy said:


> Not to be rude, but I just honestly have no idea how this is a good reason for Merckx to support doping. Confused.


Because that isn't what he said. Eddy M wasn't supporting doping, he was speaking out against the disproportionate standards to which he feels cycling and Pro Cyclists are being held versus other big money sports which have equal doping issues but with less testing and consequences for the rare folks they catch.

Now you could fee his position was right or wrong (people have posted both ways), but its important to understand his point. He wasn't "yay doping!"


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

> drugs probably weren't even all that effective


I see this and often think its basically wishful thinking. Yeah, the pre 90's stuff wasn't AS good. But there was plenty of powerful performance enhancers from the 40's-50's on in. And given how small the differences in riders are, any edge makes a big difference, especially in stage racing.


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## Cableguy (Jun 6, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> Because that isn't what he said. Eddy M wasn't supporting doping, he was speaking out against the disproportionate standards to which he feels cycling and Pro Cyclists are being held versus other big money sports which have equal doping issues but with less testing and consequences for the rare folks they catch.


That's the watered down, politically correct version of what you think he means. He said a lot more than that, and what he said was mainly concerning the decision against Contador.

This is all directly from the article:
1. "Eddy Merckx was baffled at the CAS decision". Contador tested positive. Why is he baffled Contador was thusly disciplined? That's just the right thing to do. Does he want them to wipe the positive test under the rug? 

2. "[He] blam[ed] not Contador but sporting authorities for the bad news". If Contador hadn't cheated there wouldn't be any "bad news."

3. Merckx said, "It's as if somebody wanted to kill cycling". It's tactless to say something like this after the system more or less worked and Contador got what was coming. In this case it's not like somebody wanted to kill cycling, it's like somebody wanted to clean up cycling. Say this after a cyclist is wrongly accused and then found innocent, but to whine about the sports authorities when someone is dutifully punished is just bogus to me.

4. Merckx said, "I'm very surprised and disgusted. It's bad for everyone, for the reputation of cycling, for the sponsors." Because the outcome of Contador's case looks bad for cycling, and will have negative consequences for sponsors, he's not only *surprised* but also *disgusted* at the decision? 

5. Merckx said, "I think it's going too far - when a test result is like this one, 0.0000... it's only in cycling that this sort of thing happens." It seems he's saying the positive test must be inconclusive because the traces found were so small. Gee, let's just stop developing tests to detect cheaters, screw technology.

6. Then at the end Merckx does a little back pedal, "I'm the first to say that we need controls, but I think that we are going too far in cycling." No wait, nevermind, let's not stop developing tests to detect cheaters. He is afterall the first to say cycling needs doping controls... unless those tests catch a big name GT rider like Contador, then we've gone too far.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> other big money sports which have equal doping issues but with less testing and consequences for the rare folks they catch.


I don't see this. the NFL perhaps but few sports have a fraction of the doping culture of cycling. 

My college roommate played Soccer on the US National Team and Professionally in Europe. He never saw, or even heard, of doping on any of the levels he played. 

I first saw doping as a junior in Spain 25 years ago. Saw it in Italy, Switzerland, it was always available. Ricco was doping since 15, his family doctor helped him. Even small amateur teams have had organized programs for years. 30% of age groupers tested at the Maratona last year tested positive.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Cableguy said:


> 3. Merckx said, "It's as if somebody wanted to kill cycling". It's tactless to say something like this after the system more or less worked and Contador got what was coming. In this case it's not like somebody wanted to kill cycling, it's like somebody wanted to clean up cycling. Say this after a cyclist is wrongly accused and then found innocent, but to whine about the sports authorities when someone is dutifully punished is just bogus to me.


Exactly




Cableguy said:


> 5. Merckx said, "I think it's going too far - when a test result is like this one, 0.0000... it's only in cycling that this sort of thing happens." It seems he's saying the positive test must be inconclusive because the traces found were so small. Gee, let's just stop developing tests to detect cheaters, screw technology.
> .


Yup. It is the WADA code, signed by all Olympic sports.....not just cycling. Many have had Clen positives. When Eddy says .. "it's only in cycling that this sort of thing happens" he sounds like a fool


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> There has been doping in cycling for a century. How many MLB teams ran organized, team wide, doping programs? How many ran a transfusion program for key parts of the season? how many MLB team doctors make millions providing doping services? In cycling doping can provide a huge difference for a team, in MLB the gains are marginal in the W-L %


There's no way to know how long/bad the doping history if baseball is because for the longest time nobody had any interest in looking into it. Everyone is making lots of money, life is good. For all we know, all baseball teams have doping programs in place and with all the money in the sport, you can bet the doctors get paid very well, doping or not.



Doctor Falsetti said:


> My college roommate played Soccer on the US National Team and Professionally in Europe. He never saw, or even heard, of doping on any of the levels he played.
> .


My brother lived down the hall from a Heisman Trophy winner in college who talked casually about doping (and dope smoking). "My pee has never hit the bottom of a sample cup." he'd say.


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Merckx indicted in Belgium on corruption charges

Eddy gets indicted on corruption charges.......will his defense be everyone does it?


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## covenant (May 21, 2002)

I guess there are no bro deals in Belgium.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

EP pricing on a bike is a bribe now? What ever happened to bags of unmarked bills?


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## kbiker3111 (Nov 7, 2006)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Nope. Cycling is under WADA testing rules, the NFL is not an Olympic sport so they are not. The sport (UCI) fought this for years and was the last sport to sign the WADA code prior to the 2004 Olympics


Hockey, basketball and soccer are Olympic sports, why aren't they under WADA code?


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## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Dwayne Barry said:


> What's surprising about baseball is it appears that the doping came in so late. McGuire, Sosa, etc. are a full generation after steroids became commonly used in bodybuilding and the like.


It didn't. Much like cycling, they have doped forever but only recently has it become a science. Google the word "greenies", which is simply baseball slang for amphetamines. Congress linked both speed and steroids to baseball in 1973, and by all accounts speed has been used regularly by baseball players for decades before that. Football players were linked to steroids in the 1960s.

Greenies have been around in baseball since at least the 1950s and though they may not have been sponsored or dispensed by the teams, players certainly didn't have to hide them. They weren't even illegal in the USA until the 1970s.

It is virtually certain that there are already steroids users in the Hall of Fame | HardballTalk
‘Roids and Greenies | It's About The Money
Baseball finally brings amphetamines into light of day - MLB - ESPN
Sports: Miami Dolphins, High Schools, FAU, Hurricanes, Marlins, Heat, Panthers | The Palm Beach Post


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

kbiker3111 said:


> Hockey, basketball and soccer are Olympic sports, why aren't they under WADA code?


Soccer is the most tested sport according to WADA's numbers. 

The NHL has a special deal with WADA. Players who are going to the Olympics are named to a special pool, they are tested after the playoffs and in the 6 months leading up to the Olympics. This includes OOC test and the 3 tests the NHL does on players every year NBA has a similar deal.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

atpjunkie said:


> spent any time with football players
> those guys start *saucing* in High School
> 
> the 'weight room' culture has existed as long, if not longer than cyclings
> ...


I don't think alcohol is a performance enhancer.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Doctor Falsetti said:


> Soccer is the most tested sport according to WADA's numbers.


What about Fuentes, and Operation Puerto and Euro league futbol?


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

In case anyone forgot:



> Other athletes
> 
> On 5 July 2006, Fuentes was indignant that only cyclists had been named and said he also worked with tennis and football players.[52] On 27 July 2006, IAAF was assured by Spanish prosecutors that no track and field athletes were involved.[53] On 23 September 2006, former cyclist Jesús Manzano told reporters from France 3 that he had seen "well-known footballers" from La Liga visit the offices of Dr Fuentes.[54]
> 
> ...


Operación Puerto doping case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Coolhand said:


> What about Fuentes, and Operation Puerto and Euro league futbol?


the discussion was whether they were tested or not, not the effectiveness of said tests.


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## jspharmd (May 24, 2006)

zoikz said:


> If you're in love with bike racing, you've fallen for a very sexy, beautiful woman with a drug problem. She may go through rehab, but she's always going to be a drug addict and chances are she's going to have a hard time with temptation.You may have the ideal of what she is or was, but she is what she is.


Love the analogy!


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## Doctor Falsetti (Sep 24, 2010)

Coolhand said:


> What about Fuentes, and Operation Puerto and Euro league futbol?


Are you referring to the Lawsuits Barca won against the radio stations and newspapers who said their doctors and players were doping?


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