# Ultegra Di2 vs mechanical Dura Ace?



## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

If you were buying a new bike today (complete or building custom, doesn't matter), without any thought to price (even though the groupsets cost about the same), would you prefer Ultegra Di2 or mechanical Dura Ace?

I currently have DA9000 and it still leaves a little to be desired with shifting quality. I just hit 4,000 miles on it and replaced chain/cassette/housing/cables (only derailleurs, shifters, and chainrings are not <100 miles) and it's still not quite perfect 100% of the time. It's almost there, but something tells me Di2 might be a hair better.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

Ultegra Di2 all the way.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

Ultegra Di2 was my choice.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

Seems like Dura Ace Di2 is pointless unless you have money to burn or really want a lighter bike... I have a bike with mechanical Ultegra and a bike with mechanical Dura Ace and there's difference to be felt, but I feel like with it being controlled by a computer there has to be nothing but weight to be gained between 6870 and 9070.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Ultegra Di2 slam dunk


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## farnsworth (Apr 16, 2015)

Di2 is the most dorky thing that happened in cycling since the invention of gears.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Where is the Chorus option?


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> If you were buying a new bike today (complete or building custom, doesn't matter), without any thought to price (even though the groupsets cost about the same), would you prefer Ultegra Di2 or mechanical Dura Ace?
> 
> I currently have DA9000 and it still leaves a little to be desired with shifting quality. I just hit 4,000 miles on it and replaced chain/cassette/housing/cables (only derailleurs, shifters, and chainrings are not <100 miles)* and it's still not quite perfect 100% of the time. * It's almost there, but something tells me Di2 might be a hair better.


can you elaborate on this?


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

One of the reasons I've never gone Shimano (I'm a Campy guy) is because I can't stand the pivoting Shimano brake levers. They drive me nuts. I have to say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed my test ride on a Di2 Ultegra equipped bicycle. It shifted seamlessly and authoritatively. And those damn brake levers didn't pivot.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Ultegra Di 2 becoming ubiquitous. Good value and pretty much indistinguishable from DA anyways. Besides, if folks wanted the lightest pro level grouppo, they'd get the Sram red, arguably.

I was set on investing in Ultegra Di2 next year. But eTap has me more intrgued. I like the simplicity of a single switch on each lever, instead of two delicate small buttons on each lever. Also the cleanness of wireless. However it is going to cost a ton more and not come in the Force range any time soon. Leaves Ultegra Di2 with the upper hand still.


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## wgscott (Jul 14, 2013)

Mapei said:


> One of the reasons I've never gone Shimano (I'm a Campy guy) is because I can't stand the pivoting Shimano brake levers. They drive me nuts. I have to say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed my test ride on a Di2 Ultegra equipped bicycle. It shifted seamlessly and authoritatively. And those damn brake levers didn't pivot.


That was actually a prime motivation for getting it (and at the time it was bundles with hydraulic discs).


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I have mechanical DA9000 and to be honest it is pretty damn sweet.
I have thought at times that I might upgrade it to Di2 but it is fairly cost prohibitive to go DA. 
I looked at going Ultegra Di2 but two seperate bike shops told me that the shifting on the Ultegra was a little sluggish compared to DA Di2. Perhaps that is one differentiating factor between the two?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I'd much rather have DA mechanical personally but anyone who's OCD about shifting quality should get electric.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

thisisthebeave said:


> I currently have DA9000 and it still leaves a little to be desired with shifting quality. I just hit 4,000 miles on it and replaced chain/cassette/housing/cables (only derailleurs, shifters, and chainrings are not <100 miles) and it's still not quite perfect 100% of the time. It's almost there, but something tells me Di2 might be a hair better.


I've been using Ultegra Di2 for three years now. It's never hesitated, skipped gears, or dropped a chain. Even after a major crash it didn't need adjusting, though supposedly it has a built-in reset for such events.



farnsworth said:


> Di2 is the most dorky thing that happened in cycling since the invention of gears.


I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling.


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## Hyder (May 30, 2013)

I have two bikes, Ultegra DI2 and mech Sram Red. 

I had the Red first because I hate swinging the brake lever over. I would say DI2, awesome shifting (better than Red) and no brake lever swing. DI2 all the way.


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## Jon D (Apr 11, 2011)

Di2. As the others have said


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Mapei said:


> One of the reasons I've never gone Shimano (I'm a Campy guy) is because I can't stand the pivoting Shimano brake levers. They drive me nuts.





Hyder said:


> I have two bikes, Ultegra DI2 and mech Sram Red.
> 
> I had the Red first because I hate swinging the brake lever over. I would say DI2, awesome shifting (better than Red) and no brake lever swing. DI2 all the way.


hahaha.. you guys must be the same people I see on the highway that spray the windshield washer fluid every time they use their blinker to change lanes. There are some exercises to help with fine motor skills.

to the OP, I'd choose DA9000 every time. Light and top tier shift quality can't beat that.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

TricrossRich said:


> hahaha.. you guys must be the same people I see on the highway that spray the windshield washer fluid every time they use their blinker to change lanes. There are some exercises to help with fine motor skills.
> 
> to the OP, I'd choose DA9000 every time. Light and top tier shift quality can't beat that.


Good one. In fairness though I think the opposition has more to do with inability to comprehend or accept one thing having two functions than it is one of mechanical skills. 
Or are you guys doing endos when trying to go to the big ring?


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I just ride around in the hills 4 or 5 days a week and would not need anything to fancy for a bike ride. Tiagra would be great.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

I'm a Campy guy, but as these are the choices I'd go Dura Ace 9000 mechanical. It's so good good I don't know why you'd wanna screw around with charger and crap.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Having recently test ridden two new bikes back to back, one with DA and the other with Ult Di2, I preferred the DA. Both worked flawlessly, but I prefer moving the derailleurs by hand rather than having motors do it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

DA9000 Mechanical. Works flawlessly every time. 

No need to charge battery. No worries about batteries dying on the road.

Might as well wait for the wireless shifting systems.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I own both and they both are sweet as hell and shift perfectly.

zero issues with either.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

looigi said:


> Having recently test ridden two new bikes back to back, one with DA and the other with Ult Di2, I preferred the DA. Both worked flawlessly, but I prefer moving the derailleurs by hand rather than having motors do it.


If you're moving the derailleurs by hand, you might as well save some weight and remove the cables, housings, and springs.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ugh, you guys still remember electric DA 7970? That's right, that crap has gone obsolete so quick it's not funny. Guys are dumping electric 7970 for chump change on fleabay. On the other hand, the older mechanical 7900 group, and even the 7800 group, are fetching higher $$$ than DA 7970. 
7800 and 7900 parts can still be easily sourced on fleabay, but good luck sourcing parts for 7970 a couple years from now.

Shimano will no doubt come out with wireless in response to Sram's wireless. Then all the current wired Di2 will immediately go the way of the dodo bird much faster then the mechanical 6800 and 9000.

My main issue with electric groups is that they go obsolete so quickly compared to the mechanical groups. And sourcing parts for them in a few years will be pretty an expensive to impossible proposition. With mechanical, parts will be around for years, maybe even decade to come, just look at 7800. And with these electro-mechanical servos in these electric groups, they'll wear out much sooner than the pure mechanical groups.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> My main issue with electric groups is that they go obsolete so quickly compared to the mechanical groups.


That's actually a very valid concern. I had problems earlier this summer with my Di2 and luckily the LBS was able to fix it without needing to replace it as the model I have is no longer available.


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## Keoki (Feb 13, 2012)

Sram etap


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Darn. All these posts have convinced me -- Campy Chorus!

And oh yeah TricrossRich -- Guilty as charged.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

SauronHimself said:


> If you're moving the derailleurs by hand, you might as well save some weight and remove the cables, housings, and springs.


I imagine the weight of those servos that drive the shifters are more than cables, housing and springs.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> I imagine the weight of those servos that drive the shifters are more than cables, housing and springs.


Sram Red mechanical being the lightest grupset today, eTap will be lighter still ... 1/3 lb lighter than Red, lighter still than DA or Record. And you get redundant batteries, arguably nicer shift buttons (or at least easier to use with mitts than di2



> Weight
> 
> SRAM is claiming that its new groupset is the lightest electronic groupset on the market. So, here’s the breakdown of the individual component weights:
> 
> ...



Read more at First look: SRAM Red eTap wireless groupset (video) - Cycling Weekly


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

aclinjury said:


> My main issue with electric groups is that they go obsolete so quickly compared to the mechanical groups.


An excellent point!


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

BCSaltchucker said:


> Sram Red mechanical being the lightest grupset today, eTap will be lighter still ... 1/3 lb lighter than Red, lighter still than DA or Record. And you get redundant batteries, arguably nicer shift buttons (or at least easier to use with mitts than di2
> 
> Read more at First look: SRAM Red eTap wireless groupset (video) - Cycling Weekly


If Sram had any gonads they'd make the rear shifting selectable to match Campagnolo spacing. They'd sell a lot of eTap!


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> I imagine the weight of those servos that drive the shifters are more than cables, housing and springs.


The shifters have no servos. Yes, the derailleurs are heavier but the shifters are lighter because they have no ratchet mechanisms, etc in them. The groupset weight is comparable or slightly less depending upon exact setup, i.e. which battery you have. Remember cables and housing can add a decent amount of weight.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> ugh, you guys still remember electric DA 7970? That's right, that crap has gone obsolete so quick it's not funny. Guys are dumping electric 7970 for chump change on fleabay. On the other hand, the older mechanical 7900 group, and even the 7800 group, are fetching higher $$$ than DA 7970.
> 7800 and 7900 parts can still be easily sourced on fleabay, but good luck sourcing parts for 7970 a couple years from now.
> 
> Shimano will no doubt come out with wireless in response to Sram's wireless. Then all the current wired Di2 will immediately go the way of the dodo bird much faster then the mechanical 6800 and 9000.
> ...


Ultegra 6770 and 6870 are a lot more compatible than any of the other parts from their mechanical groups. i.e. you can use 6770 shifters on a 6870 setup. I'll give you DA7970 went obsolete quickly, but that was Shimano's first attempt and having pure electrical signaling vs. a true digital format (ala e-Tube) makes it a lot more open to possibilities in the future. Got a 10 speed CX bike but wan't Shimano hydro? You can do that with Di2. You can't do that with mechanical (ok yeah there's that ghost shift hack...but urghhh).

Even with wireless coming to market, I really don't see it working unless frames can benefit radically. Why bother with 4 batteries when you can only bother with one? Sure, it takes longer to set up, but amortized over the hours that you run it it's negligible. You can completely wire a Di2 setup in about 20 minutes if you somewhat know what you're doing. Sure, if you're a pro mechanic setting up 30-40 bikes it's a different story but for most people that are only doing one bike it's not a big deal.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

DaveWC said:


> That's actually a very valid concern. I had problems earlier this summer with my Di2 and luckily the LBS was able to fix it without needing to replace it as the model I have is no longer available.


yep.

I still have a bike with DA 7800, and a cursory search on fleabay still has a tons of good condition or even new old stock 7800 parts. Same can be said of 6700/7900 parts. And the same will be for 6800/9000 parts down the road. Hell, there are still tons of parts for DA 7400 and 7700 parts, and the 7400 group was introduced a quarter century (25 years ago in 1991) ago!


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## KojoAkimbo (Dec 6, 2010)

"Without any thought to price", I'd go Campy EPS 2. But between the two options you posted, I'd ask myself if the weight difference matters. If not, Ultegra Di2.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

Had Ultegra Di2 on the last bike. Went 9000 on current bike. But several mitigating factors...Ultegra Di2 was offered on a lower level frame than the 9000. And 9000 works so well, and I don't need the benefits electronic provides. And 9000 bike was lighter, and came with wheels I wanted.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

TmB123 said:


> I looked at going Ultegra Di2 but two seperate bike shops told me that the shifting on the Ultegra was a little sluggish compared to DA Di2. Perhaps that is one differentiating factor between the two?


I don't think that is true. You can program the speed at which it shifts, just like DA. 5 settings. At this point, I believe the only real difference between the two is weight and cost. Ultegra is cheaper because the components are outsourced instead of being made in house like DA.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

DrSmile said:


> If Sram had any gonads they'd make the rear shifting selectable to match Campagnolo spacing. They'd sell a lot of eTap!


yes it will come out in spring with many things on the wish list missing

I wish it had Bluetooth, not ANT+.

wish it had auto trim

wish it had custom sequential shift programming

wish it came in Force and Rival, XO and X9 (this is more likely to come true, so I hear)


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## Hoss NJ (Sep 29, 2014)

Bought the Ultegra Di2


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

Di2 for me, works great.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

DrSmile said:


> Where is the Chorus option?


My choice also.


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

velodog said:


> My choice also.


Another Chorus fan. Like the shape of the hoods and shifting feel.
I have had Ui2 and it was great but still like Campy better


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

I think the answer depends on the bicycle to which it may be mounted.

As to the quickly obsolescent issue, early adopters always pay for their earliness. I'll wait for wireless to settle out.

As to the swinging (pivoting) Shimano brake levers, some of us were riding bikes before integrated brakes and shifters hit the scene, the Shimano system was foreign to us - as we liked stability in our brake levers & short throws on a shift. In race conditions and fast group rides, there was always a finger on the lever.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

With Sram's history of technological innovation, I'd expect the wireless movement to be set back at least 5 years. 

Unless Campy and Shimano can demonstrate weight savings, I think this may be one innovation that is DOA for at least 10 more years.

I can just imagine hackers at the Giro shifting the gears for the riders. What could be more fun?


aclinjury said:


> ugh, you guys still remember electric DA 7970? That's right, that crap has gone obsolete so quick it's not funny. Guys are dumping electric 7970 for chump change on fleabay. On the other hand, the older mechanical 7900 group, and even the 7800 group, are fetching higher $$$ than DA 7970.
> 7800 and 7900 parts can still be easily sourced on fleabay, but good luck sourcing parts for 7970 a couple years from now.
> 
> Shimano will no doubt come out with wireless in response to Sram's wireless. Then all the current wired Di2 will immediately go the way of the dodo bird much faster then the mechanical 6800 and 9000.
> ...


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

I prefer mechanical because in general I understand how it works, how to set it up, and how to adjust it if need be. I'm not interested in fooling around with computers and recharging batteries.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

aclinjury said:


> ugh, you guys still remember electric DA 7970? That's right, that crap has gone obsolete so quick it's not funny. Guys are dumping electric 7970 for chump change on fleabay. On the other hand, the older mechanical 7900 group, and even the 7800 group, are fetching higher $$$ than DA 7970.
> 7800 and 7900 parts can still be easily sourced on fleabay, but good luck sourcing parts for 7970 a couple years from now.
> 
> Shimano will no doubt come out with wireless in response to Sram's wireless. Then all the current wired Di2 will immediately go the way of the dodo bird much faster then the mechanical 6800 and 9000.
> ...


I think this is only true for the first generation of Shimano Di2, which coincided right with the move from 10 to 11 speed. Current generation Shimano Di2 should be well supported just as mechanical. I use ultegra di2 on my time trial bike - it is a substantial upgrade from mechanical, particularly having the ability to shift from multiple hand positions unlike mechanical. 

FWIW, Steve Tilford, who has maybe raced/ridden longer/more than anyone ever, said electronic shifting was the greatest innovation he's experienced as a rider.


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## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

SantaCruz said:


> I think the answer depends on the bicycle to which it may be mounted.
> 
> As to the quickly obsolescent issue, early adopters always pay for their earliness. I'll wait for wireless to settle out.
> 
> As to the swinging (pivoting) Shimano brake levers, some of us were riding bikes before integrated brakes and shifters hit the scene, the Shimano system was foreign to us - as we liked stability in our brake levers & short throws on a shift. In race conditions and fast group rides, there was always a finger on the lever.


I remember when the brakeshifters first came out 25 years ago. One of the benefits touted was the foldability of the levers in a crash. Less likely to bend or break a brake lever because it would give inward on impact.

But then, SRAM and Campy chose to have not pivot brake levers, so perhaps that benefit in a crash didn't add up to much gain in resilience/durability?

But I agree about the short throws for shifters. I am somewhat disappointed with the two brakeshifter systems I currently have, as they require some fairly long throws (10sp Rival and 9sp 105). Might try some used Red Bshifters next, however having mere buttons even more appealing from a responsiveness/feel perspective - like having an SMG transmission instead of a row-your-own manual.


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

I have DA9000 on 2 bikes and have ridden Ui2 for a total of 3 weeks on bike tours in Europe (1 week last year, 2 weeks this year) and still vastly prefer DA9000. Two former pro's on this year's tour felt the same way. YMMV, but I still find that it's easier for me to "time" my shifts with my pedal stroke to get smooth shifts with a mechanical system. Also the tactile and auditory (audible "click") feedback and clarity of the shift "command" is much better with DA9000 (mechanical). 

I also find that when I'm physically/mentally wrecked during a hard effort, the mechanical system is more intuitive to me (probably because I've been riding STi since it first came out in the mid-90s). Even after two weeks on Ui2, I'd find myself hitting the up-shift button when I really wanted a down-shift.


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## Mark H (Dec 12, 2007)

jnbrown said:


> Another Chorus fan. Like the shape of the hoods and shifting feel.
> I have had Ui2 and it was great but still like Campy better


Former Chorus owner here and Red before that. I loved the hoods and the look of the Chorus group, but I never could get where I liked the thumb shift. Plus, it was difficult for me to shift in the drops. Bought a new bike with Ui2 and absolutely love it!! Just my thoughts.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Problem with Di2 and DAi2 is that no bike shop stocks parts. Warrenty issue will take a month. 
Got another bike? Your good to go. 
Don't and you are not riding!!!!!


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

thisisthebeave said:


> I currently have DA9000 and it still leaves a little to be desired with shifting quality. I just hit 4,000 miles on it and replaced chain/cassette/housing/cables (only derailleurs, shifters, and chainrings are not <100 miles) and it's still not quite perfect 100% of the time. It's almost there, but something tells me Di2 might be a hair better.


Sounds like you need a new mechanic.

I'd go DA9000 in a heartbeat.


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## Scar (Sep 13, 2014)

Between those two choices I would choose DA mechanical. I have a bike with 9-speed Dura Ace and one with 10 speed Dura Ace and I have never been bothered by the pivoting shifters. 

My wife has a 10-speed Dura Ace bike and a Ultegra Di2 bike. After 15,000+ miles on the DA equipped bike and 6,000+ on the Di2 bike she says she doesn't have a preference between them. After riding one or the other for a few months it only takes her a few miles to get acclimated again to the change when she switches bikes.

One thing in favor of the Di2 is that her's never, ever needs to be trimmed. It has just worked perfectly to keep the chain centered in the middle of the front derailleur cage. And the battery lasts a lot of miles before needing to be recharged. And that's a good thing (sorry Martha Stewart).

Me? I prefer mechanical for myself and never expect to own an electronic shifting system. Personal preference only, with no hostility to electronic shifting in general or the people who prefer it. 

My newest bike has 11-speed Chorus and I prefer it over any other group I have ever owned. I love the thumb shifting and the levers. Wish I had sprung for the Record now that I have tried Camp. Top it off with Campy being the best looking groups available and it comes away as the winner. For me anyway, and I'm the guy who pays for my bike stuff.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> can you elaborate on this?


I dunno its just not consistently crisp and sometimes lags. The cassette/chain/housing/cables are all new, derailleur hangar is straight, adjusted perfectly... if it was only downshifts (going to a bigger cog) I would assume it was me or my technique, but you can't really screw up an upshift (smaller cog). So if it lags or isn't perfectly crisp in both directions, it's the equipment not the user. I guess its *possible *the chain rings need replacement but I'm very diligent with cleaning and they have 4,000 miles, so...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> I dunno its just not consistently crisp and sometimes lags. The cassette/chain/housing/cables are all new, derailleur hangar is straight, adjusted perfectly... if it was only downshifts (going to a bigger cog) I would assume it was me or my technique, but you can't really screw up an upshift (smaller cog). So if it lags or isn't perfectly crisp in both directions, it's the equipment not the user. I guess its *possible *the chain rings need replacement but I'm very diligent with cleaning and they have 4,000 miles, so...


wait a minute, where is the issue, front or rear?

you mention cogs and chain rings in your description.

if it is cogs and shifting to a smaller one lags, it is either malfunctioning cables or a bad derailleur (unlikely).

most likely cables or housing or ferrules.

bring it by, easy fix.

9000 is flawless.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> wait a minute, where is the issue, front or rear?
> 
> you mention cogs and chain rings in your description.
> 
> ...


Issue is the rear... it's not really an issue, it's just not quite perfect and for the price I feel it should be. It works fine, but there are shift delays at times or it feels rougher at times.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> Issue is the rear... it's not really an issue, it's just not quite perfect and for the price I feel it should be. It works fine, but there are shift delays at times or it feels rougher at times.


easy fix, check derailleur hanger or cable drag.

if you take it to a shop and they don't fix it stat, they aren't really trying.


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## D&MsDad (Jul 17, 2007)

I have one bike with Chorus, one with bar-end shifters, and one with 105. My satisfaction in the performance of the groupsets follows the same order: greatest = Chorus, least = 105. However, the 105 bike is a tandem, which may impair the shift quality. The 105 is just too mushy, resulting in (MANY) over and under shifts - the crispness of the Chorus shifts are on another planet by comparison.

So, given the choices in the OP, I'd have to take a chance and go with Di2. 


--------------


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

D&MsDad said:


> I have one bike with Chorus, one with bar-end shifters, and one with 105. My satisfaction in the performance of the groupsets follows the same order: greatest = Chorus, least = 105. However, the 105 bike is a tandem, which may impair the shift quality. The 105 is just too mushy, resulting in (MANY) over and under shifts - the crispness of the Chorus shifts are on another planet by comparison.
> 
> So, given the choices in the OP, I'd have to take a chance and go with Di2.
> 
> ...


If you're going with Di2 based on the mushy shifting of your Shimano 105 group, then you are considerably off the mark. 

DA9000 shifting is so crisp and precise that many compare it to Di2.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

D&MsDad said:


> However, the 105 bike is a tandem, which may impair the shift quality. The 105 is just too mushy, resulting in (MANY) over and under shifts - the crispness of the Chorus shifts are on another planet by comparison.


I have a few 10 speed STI DA, a bar con DA, a few Ultegra STI, and 105 STI 9 speed on our IBIS tandem. Had 5600 10 speed 105 on a TCX for a few years, never a problem. Kid has two campy ERGO, me the wrench, I had both 9 speed Chorus and Record. Note the HAD, no better to me than the DA 10S which is my fav hands down.
Not planning to fanBoy @ the ERGO setups expense, read what you will I say anyone..

Your shifting short commings on the Tandem most likely not the 105.

Is it 5500,5600, or 5700?


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## FeltF75rider (Feb 10, 2012)

duriel said:


> Problem with Di2 and DAi2 is that no bike shop stocks parts. Warrenty issue will take a month.
> Got another bike? Your good to go.
> Don't and you are not riding!!!!!


Incorrect, I broke the right shif6ter into a bunch of pieces. Bike shop had me fixed and back on the road in an hour. Had it been warranty, same scenario. The lever would have been swapped out and got me on road, warranty would have been sorted out with no down time. But that's just my LBS. If weight were the deciding factor DA otherwise Ultegra Di2. I really like my sprint shifters and with mechanical I can't shift with my thumbs from the drops.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

D&MsDad said:


> I have one bike with Chorus, one with bar-end shifters, and one with 105. My satisfaction in the performance of the groupsets follows the same order: greatest = Chorus, least = 105. However, the 105 bike is a tandem, which may impair the shift quality. The 105 is just too mushy, resulting in (MANY) over and under shifts - the crispness of the Chorus shifts are on another planet by comparison.
> 
> So, given the choices in the OP, I'd have to take a chance and go with Di2.
> 
> ...


is it 5800 105?

if yes then it should be very close to 9000. yes, 5800 is THAT good.

if no then it could be cable drag or some such thing.




If I were blindfolded and rode my 5800 back to back with my 9000 I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

Of course I'd eventually crash.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

factory feel said:


> is it 5800 105?
> 
> if yes then it should be very close to 9000. yes, 5800 is THAT good.


I am not aware of 11 speed on Tandems, correct me if I am wrong...


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

FeltF75rider said:


> I really like my sprint shifters and with mechanical I can't shift with my thumbs from the drops.


Uh true, but you can shift with your finger can't you?


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## OldChipper (May 15, 2011)

tvad said:


> DA9000 shifting is so crisp and precise that many compare it to Di2.


This. It has remarkably light action - shifting and braking.


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## FeltF75rider (Feb 10, 2012)

Totally the same, not!


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

robt57 said:


> I am not aware of 11 speed on Tandems, correct me if I am wrong...


I missed that part


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## PTE (Nov 23, 2015)

DI2 is hands down my favorite. I was givien a prototype DA DI2 years ago before it came to market and fell in love with it. Went back to mechanical DI2 when I had to give that bike back and really felt the difference. (and I always loved the mechanical!) Several years and several bikes later, the only constant is DI2. Save the mechanical for your retro bike! (I am in the bicycle business -not with Shimano- and have years of experience with all types of systems - That said, this is just my opinion)


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

When I was buying my latest bicycle, a Bianchi Infinito CV, it came down to either a Campy Chorus 11 version or one with Ultegra DI2. I loved 'em both but decided on the Chorus for two reasons: The Chorus model was five hundred bucks cheaper and the bicycle weighed a half pound less. As for the reason for the half pound weight difference, I can't lay it completely on the groupset as the two models came with different sets of wheels.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

If you are having shifting problems on D/A 9000, it's either not set up right or you have a frame/Der hanger alignment problem. That group is butter. 

I'm a campy guy myself.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> easy fix, check derailleur hanger or cable drag.
> 
> if you take it to a shop and they don't fix it stat, they aren't really trying.


Hangar is perfect and I just replaced the housing/cables with a Dura Ace kit.

I'm using a SRAM 1170 cassette though. I wonder if it would be better with a SRAM chain? Shimano cassettes don't have an option where you get an 11, 16, and 28 cog all in one cassette. Only SRAM has that option...


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

D&MsDad said:


> I have one bike with Chorus, one with bar-end shifters, and one with 105. My satisfaction in the performance of the groupsets follows the same order: greatest = Chorus, least = 105. However, the 105 bike is a tandem, which may impair the shift quality. The 105 is just too mushy, resulting in (MANY) over and under shifts - the crispness of the Chorus shifts are on another planet by comparison.
> 
> So, given the choices in the OP, I'd have to take a chance and go with Di2.
> 
> ...


Yeah I've had 105 5800, Ultegra 6700 and 6800, and DA 9000. 5800 is mushy as hell and also gave me over/under shifts. It was on a backup bike and I spent most of my time on the 9000 bike, but if all I had was 5800 I'm sure I'd get used to it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

thisisthebeave said:


> I wonder if it would be better with a SRAM chain? Shimano cassettes don't have an option where you get an 11, 16, and 28 cog all in one cassette. Only SRAM has that option...


IMO, when you start mixing brands, then you risk downgrading the shifting performance of the group set...regardless of the brand.

For best performance use all Shimano parts with DA9000.


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

thisisthebeave said:


> Yeah I've had 105 5800, Ultegra 6700 and 6800, and DA 9000. 5800 is mushy as hell and also gave me over/under shifts. It was on a backup bike and I spent most of my time on the 9000 bike, but if all I had was 5800 I'm sure I'd get used to it.


I've been using 5800 for the last few weeks and it shifts pretty much the same as 6800 and 9000 which I've used both of each for a few thousand km. Never under or over shifted.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> Yeah I've had 105 5800, Ultegra 6700 and 6800, and DA 9000. * 5800 is mushy as hell* and also gave me over/under shifts. It was on a backup bike and I spent most of my time on the 9000 bike, but if all I had was 5800 I'm sure I'd get used to it.


who is your mechanic?

this is simply not true of 5800.

something is wrong with the install.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Jwiffle said:


> . . . and I don't need the benefits electronic provides.


Most people don't/won't. For a specialty bike (time trail) I see electronic shifting as a benefit in several areas, for a normal "mass start" bike, electronic shifting is IMO a silly gimmick. Even more so as good as DA 9000 and Campy's newly designed high end groups are performance wise.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

tvad said:


> IMO, when you start mixing brands, then you risk downgrading the shifting performance of the group set...regardless of the brand.
> 
> For best performance use all Shimano parts with DA9000.


I could go with a 12-28 Dura Ace cassette I guess but they creak a lot... just sucks they don't offer a cassette with 11, 16, and 28 all in one cassette. But the 11 is probably my least used of those 3.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> who is your mechanic?
> 
> this is simply not true of 5800.
> 
> something is wrong with the install.


I'm not the only one who said it, look who I was quoting.

Compared to 9000, it's mushy and less precise. I would often shift too much or not enough because it was less smooth and precise.


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## Bikephelps (Jan 23, 2012)

DA 9000 should be flawless. I'm also a Campy guy.


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## black20 (Sep 10, 2012)

I agree DA9000 when setup properly is quite possibly the smoothest shifting stuff money can buy. You probably have other issues...


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> I'm not the only one who said it, look who I was quoting.
> 
> Compared to 9000, it's mushy and less precise. I would often shift too much or not enough because it was less smooth and precise.


no disrespect but my set ups with 5800 are the cats meow.

and I don't know who you were quoting.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

factory feel said:


> no disrespect but my set ups with 5800 are the cats meow.
> 
> and I don't know who you were quoting.


If you could for completeness state how long you have used the 9000 and 6800 before you got to meowing about the 5800... 

baseline gauge el al...


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

robt57 said:


> If you could for completeness state how long you have used the 9000 and 6800 before you got to meowing about the 5800...
> 
> baseline gauge el al...


I know your post was not directed at me, but as I posted a few posts back, I have used 9000 and 6800 for a few thousand miles each, and they perform essentially the same as 5800. Many others have said the same thing.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

robt57 said:


> If you could for completeness state how long you have used the 9000 and 6800 before you got to meowing about the 5800...
> 
> baseline gauge el al...


i use them all the time, i currently own all three.

the statements i'm hearing just don't make sense and may mislead other riders.

they all purr like kittens....


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

factory feel said:


> i use them all the time, i currently own all three.
> 
> the statements i'm hearing just don't make sense and may mislead other riders.
> 
> they all purr like kittens....


Thanks

the 105 5800 is not more tactile like in the 10s iterations? I have all levels 10s and the 105 STIs are fine, but not near as buttery and light action as my 7800 bikes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

robt57 said:


> Thanks
> 
> the 105 5800 is not more tactile like in the 10s iterations? I have all levels 10s and the 105 STIs are fine, but not near as buttery and light action as my 7800 bikes.


If your Ultegra is 6700 and 105 is that same generation, that's not surprising at all. But the same could be said of 7900 as compared to 7800. That's a shimano's first try at cable routing under the bar tape 'thing' not a 105 and Ultegra vs DA thing.


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## Upnorth (Jul 4, 2013)

I have both Ultegra Di2 and DA Di2 love them both over mechanical series. DA is smoother and lighter if that is a concern. Both operate flawlessly and I would never consider mechanical again. Wireless does not do much for me at this point, anymore than one battery to keep an eye on is PIA. The Di2 batteries need charging 2-3 times per season for me.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

I love these posts. Campy for me and never personally owned anything else, could not get use to the button arrangement on Shimano. But would say mechanical for me much more personal and interactive when shifting than with electric. Gives you that more I am part of the bike feeling, imoa. Have ridden Di2 works great as well as mechanical DA as long as it is set up properly. My experience: riding Campy EPS works flawlessly all the time but I do not get the connection feeling with bike like I got with my Chorus mechanical. Wish I could go back but frame is electronic only. Used Chorus mechanical for about 14 years (9 speed) worked flawlessly with regular cable changes and shifter rebuild. Nothing like the feeling of manual clicking thru cogs after cresting a hill to drop into a lower gear, very personal, one with the machine.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

robt57 said:


> Thanks
> 
> the 105 5800 is not more tactile like in the 10s iterations? I have all levels 10s and the 105 STIs are fine, but not near as buttery and light action as my 7800 bikes.


I have a 7800 bike as well and yes it is nice.

the 5800 is just as good if not better.

i'm so baffled by the 5800 "mushy" & "mis-shifts" statements though.

oh well, what are ya gonna do.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

factory feel said:


> no disrespect but my set ups with 5800 are the cats meow.
> 
> and I don't know who you were quoting.


I don't want to turn this into 9000 vs 5800, but have you ridden DA9000 extensively? Like owned a bike with each, more than a test ride?

If all you've ridden is 5700 series 105 or worse, I'm sure 5800 series 105 is amazing. I find it hard to believe that you say 5800 is great if you've ridden 9000. Yes, 5800 is great *for the price* but there's certainly a big difference between it and 9000. Whether the difference is worth it to you varies by individual.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

5DII said:


> I know your post was not directed at me, but as I posted a few posts back, I have used 9000 and 6800 for a few thousand miles each, and they perform essentially the same as 5800. Many others have said the same thing.


To be fair, Denny's/IHOP/TGIF/Chili's/etc exist because plenty of people can't tell the difference to put a value on better food, but that doesn't mean that better food is not legitimately better, many just can't tell.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

thisisthebeave said:


> *I don't want to turn this into 9000 vs 5800, but have you ridden DA9000 extensively?* Like owned a bike with each, more than a test ride?
> 
> If all you've ridden is 5700 series 105 or worse, I'm sure 5800 series 105 is amazing. I find it hard to believe that you say 5800 is great if you've ridden 9000. Yes, 5800 is great *for the price* but there's certainly a big difference between it and 9000. Whether the difference is worth it to you varies by individual.


yes, I currently pwn both.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

This isn't just academic. I'm currently specing out a bike and I'm planning on going Dura Ace mechanical.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> This isn't just academic. I'm currently specing out a bike and I'm planning on going Dura Ace mechanical.


full group at about 1k at merlin cycles right now....


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

factory feel said:


> full group at about 1k at merlin cycles right now....


 
I'm going to have a builder do the whole thing. The one exception to Dura Ace is I am asking for Ultegra cassette.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

thisisthebeave said:


> I don't want to turn this into 9000 vs 5800, but have you ridden DA9000 extensively? Like owned a bike with each, more than a test ride?
> 
> If all you've ridden is 5700 series 105 or worse, I'm sure 5800 series 105 is amazing. I find it hard to believe that you say 5800 is great if you've ridden 9000. Yes, 5800 is great *for the price* but there's certainly a big difference between it and 9000. Whether the difference is worth it to you varies by individual.


Agree 100%... 

I have DA9000 on my Venge and had 5800 on my Allez. Now the Allez is a 50/50 5800/6800 hybrid. 6800 crank set, 6800 brakes, 6800 FD, 5800 RD and 5800 levers


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

blind leading the bli....


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Di2 batteries are so hard to charge. Batteries will die on a ride.

lmao


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## Stumpjumper FSR (Aug 6, 2006)

tlg said:


> Di2 batteries are so hard to charge. Batteries will die on a ride.
> 
> lmao


What is so hard about plugging in a charging cord a few times a year?

True a battery could die an a ride the same as a cable could break, at least with Di2 it will warn you when the battery is getting low allowing you to shift the rear derailleur to get back in.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> What is so hard about plugging in a charging cord a few times a year?
> 
> True a battery could die an a ride the same as a cable could break, at least with Di2 it will warn you when the battery is getting low allowing you to shift the rear derailleur to get back in.



this is just how I feel, but to me, electronic components are anathema to a road bike which is human powered. i ride a bike to escape civilization and to unplug. I make an exception for the garmin which isn't really necessary for the ride


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Stumpjumper FSR said:


> What is so hard about plugging in a charging cord a few times a year?
> 
> True a battery could die an a ride the same as a cable could break, at least with Di2 it will warn you when the battery is getting low allowing you to shift the rear derailleur to get back in.


I'm laughing because those excuses are silly.

Nothing hard about plugging in a charger. It literally takes 3 seconds every 1,000mi or so.
My phone takes 3 seconds too. Every day or so. And my garmin. And my lights. And my tablet. Of all the electronics I own, Di2 is the easiest to deal with. 

If you battery dies on a ride... well then you probably have bigger issues to deal with. You're probably riding on flat tires and a worn out drivetrain too. Because you'd have to be that oblivious.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> this is just how I feel, but to me, electronic components are *anathema* to a road bike which is human powered. i ride a bike to escape civilization and to unplug. I make an exception for the garmin which isn't really necessary for the ride


how many years have you been waiting til you could use that word in a post?


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Trek_5200 said:


> i ride a bike to escape civilization


hELLo, your riding on a road (which was produced by civilization), better get a MBike!!!!!
You're riding to escape society.....


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

duriel said:


> hELLo, your riding on a road (which was produced by civilization), better get a MBike!!!!!
> You're riding to escape society.....


And riding a bike made from alloys, rubber, plastic, etc. All of it non-existent without civilization.
If you're escaping civilization, walk or ride a horse.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Trek_5200 said:


> this is just how I feel, but to me, electronic components are anathema to a road bike which is human powered. i ride a bike to escape civilization and to unplug. I make an exception for the garmin which isn't really necessary for the ride


As Jimmuh Carter used to say, I feel your pain. We all have our emotional (okay, petty) issues, and mine are at least as petty as yours. I refuse to use a Garmin in part because I don't want Uncle Garmin to be able to keep tabs on how many times I ride the $$$$ racing bicycle on a run to the liquor store. It doesn't matter that I carry a cellphone, which means my every move is being tracked, anyway. 

I also have to say that an invisible line is crossed when the electronic gadget isn't simply an accessory but an actual mechanical component. What'll be next? A gigantic v-twin gasoline engine parked above the crank?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

tlg said:


> And riding a bike made from alloys, rubber, plastic, etc. All of it non-existent without civilization.
> If you're escaping civilization, walk or ride a horse.


most horses are bred by humans to their current characteristics. so all there's left is a barefoot walk


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

den bakker said:


> most horses are bred by humans to their current characteristics. so all there's left is a barefoot walk


Wearing shoes and clothes made by humans on streets or trails made or maintained by humans.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Mapei said:


> I refuse to use a Garmin in part because* I don't want Uncle Garmin to be able to keep tabs on how many times I ride the $$$$ racing bicycle on a run to the liquor store.*


Glad to know I'm not the only one.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I just upgraded to Mechanical Dura Ace. It's that good. No need for electronic. The shifting is that precise.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

For me, part of cycling is just playing and acquiring new toys and new gadgets from time to time is part of the game.... I appreciate the sentiment about keeping it pure though, so I try not to go overboard, but electronic shifting is far from that line for me right now. If it keeps you riding and working on your fitness, I say do you.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

I voted in the poll but also voted with my wallet, several years ago... I've been on Ultegra di2 snce it came out - it converted me from a Campy guy to a Shimano guy, it's decadent how nice it is, it's changed the way I ride.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Creakyknees said:


> I voted in the poll but also voted with my wallet, several years ago... I've been on Ultegra di2 snce it came out - it converted me from a Campy guy to a Shimano guy, it's decadent how nice it is, it's changed the way I ride.


Same here. I tested it for the first time last night and while there certainly was an adjustment period where I had some doubts, I came away feeling like I must have it on my next bike (which I am currently building).


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Creakyknees said:


> it converted me from a Campy guy to a Shimano guy, it's decadent how nice it is, it's changed the way I ride.


My God, what happened to you!

Not only to switch, but to come right out and tell the world like that. You need to see a priest.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

velodog said:


> My God, what happened to you!
> 
> Not only to switch, but to come right out and tell the world like that. You need to see a priest.


The great thing about disc brakes is its' taken the heat off of all of us still on mechanical gears.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Mechanical Dura Ace all the way, slam dunk, no thinking involved. Why you scream? because of it's ease of maintenance, ease of diagnosing issues, can be fixed on the side of the road, no trained technician needed to fix the bike thus you can fix it instead of an expensive technician, no dead batteries while out on a ride and a taxi call, no worry about cold weather shortening the battery life and a taxi call, when the battery dies you have no shifting so you're stuck in whatever gear you happen to be in so you call taxi, less to go wrong with the lack of servo motors and wireless sending units and they break you call a taxi, when things go wrong it can be costly to fix and take longer to fix which means your bike is in the shop a lot longer and your wallet becomes a lot lighter, rough road or a harsh bump can play havoc with connectors, electronic systems have had some issues with dropped chains and once that happens you come to stop and must call a taxi again.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

froze said:


> Mechanical Dura Ace all the way, slam dunk, no thinking involved. Why you scream? because of it's ease of maintenance, ease of diagnosing issues, can be fixed on the side of the road, no trained technician needed to fix the bike thus you can fix it instead of an expensive technician, no dead batteries while out on a ride and a taxi call, no worry about cold weather shortening the battery life and a taxi call, when the battery dies you have no shifting so you're stuck in whatever gear you happen to be in so you call taxi, less to go wrong with the lack of servo motors and wireless sending units and they break you call a taxi, when things go wrong it can be costly to fix and take longer to fix which means your bike is in the shop a lot longer and your wallet becomes a lot lighter, rough road or a harsh bump can play havoc with connectors, electronic systems have had some issues with dropped chains and once that happens you come to stop and must call a taxi again.


Campy EPS you can shift by hand if the battery dies. But yeah...keep on preaching! Also, what can a "trained mechanic" do to Di2/EPS that you can't? Plug it in, see the diagnostics, done.


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## Fox ND (Dec 23, 2015)

thisisthebeave said:


> If you were buying a new bike today (complete or building custom, doesn't matter), without any thought to price (even though the groupsets cost about the same), would you prefer Ultegra Di2 or mechanical Dura Ace?
> 
> I currently have DA9000 and it still leaves a little to be desired with shifting quality. I just hit 4,000 miles on it and replaced chain/cassette/housing/cables (only derailleurs, shifters, and chainrings are not <100 miles) and it's still not quite perfect 100% of the time. It's almost there, but something tells me Di2 might be a hair better.


I've run DA 9070, 9000 and Di2 all on the same bike. 9000 is much fussier than 9070 with setup almost impossible to get perfectly dialed-in. The shifts don't have as much positive feedback either, compared to 9070, so over-shifting was a constant. Once dialed it performed well, but like you, it took about 5 trips to the shop for tuning. Tip- Be sure your rear mech hangar is perfectly straight and tight or the cassette tolerances with its very narrow chain tolerances won't track perfectly with the derailer, affecting shifting more than you'd think. 

Di2 eliminated the 9000 problems as it performs tracking adjustments with micro increments. But the button feel is a very different sensation. There isn't much tactile feedback. You just have to punch it and know it did the job - which it always does! I'd go with either 9070 or Di2 and skip 9000. Don't have any experience with Ultegra Di2 but think it's principally just a few grams heavier for the entire groupset. 

S Works Tarmac DA Di2


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

froze said:


> no dead batteries while out on a ride and a taxi call, no worry about cold weather shortening the battery life and a taxi call, when the battery dies you have no shifting so you're stuck in whatever gear you happen to be in so you call taxi,


What a bunch of silly myths. You have to be quite retarded to have the battery die on you during a ride. First off, the front derailleur shuts off first. Leaving enough battery to shift the rear for around 60 miles. I've never seen someone with di2 encounter this. 
I've got 1088mi on my battery and it's not down to 25% yet. I'll charge it at 25% and still have over 250mi left.

What's this taxi thing you keep talking about? They don't have those where I ride. Is that the thing you call when your shift cable breaks? Because I see that happen far more than di2 batteries dying.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

I have ~60% on my battery, think the last time I charged it was early September maybe... I can't really remember...


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

tlg said:


> What's this taxi thing you keep talking about? They don't have those where I ride. Is that the thing you call when your shift cable breaks? Because I see that happen far more than di2 batteries dying.


You're right. Wtf is a taxi? My friend called an Uber when his shift cable broke last time.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

deviousalex said:


> Campy EPS you can shift by hand if the battery dies. But yeah...keep on preaching! Also, what can a "trained mechanic" do to Di2/EPS that you can't? Plug it in, see the diagnostics, done.


They putting those diagnostic tools on compact multi tool, that'll fit in a saddle bag or pocket, these days?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

odd i went to the bike shop for my 9000. they got it right the first time. will say for the most part i can't tell a difference between 9000 and 6800 except that the shifts are better. i don't feel the need to trim. no difference in braking between ultegra and dura ace.

i agree with the sentiment that simpler is better. i get how some people like gadgets, but for me its about enjoying time on the bike and knowing the job gets done. and i simply have more faith in mechanical over electronic over the long haul. less that can go wrong. the biggest issue is watching the cable for wear.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

velodog said:


> They putting those diagnostic tools on compact multi tool, that'll fit in a saddle bag or pocket, these days?


Do you take your wheel truing stand and hanger alignment gauge with you when you ride?

There will always be situations with any system that can't be fixed out on the road. I'll take my chances that my Di2 will suddenly fail for no explicable reason.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

so now I need even more tools, as if two tubes, a chain tool a hex-wrench set, spare batteries and a foldable tire? pretty soon I'll need to hire car support.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

deviousalex said:


> Do you take your wheel truing stand and hanger alignment gauge with you when you ride?
> 
> There will always be situations with any system that can't be fixed out on the road. I'll take my chances that my Di2 will suddenly fail for no explicable reason.


Very bad and extremely ignorant answer, your example is so far away from the two items being compared it's obscenely ridiculas. If you're electronic shifter goes out of whack on a ride you're screwed, not so with mechanical. You can't carry around a diagnostic tool for your electronic crap on your bike, but you can carry a phillips driver. While the chances of electronic or mechanical to fail on a ride is slim but it can happen and has happened; so your choice, which you've taken, be 50 or more miles from home and have to call for your mommy to come get you because your electronic system died for some reason, or fix on the side of the road and continue on your merry way. 

There's already been instances, especially in rain, where the electronic system stopped shifting the front derailleur-reset-which caused the front derailleur to move full in and full out jamming the chain; and in rain the rear derailleur has also suffered from outage. Instances of batteries dying on the road, fault of the rider? perhaps but not always as batteries do die from age or short out, but why should we have to put up with such nonsense to ride our bikes?

The fundamental problem with electrical vs mechanical is our ability to fix them on the road if necessary, mechanical can be fixed with a simple mini tool but with electrical you're stuck.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Nearly 2 years electrical... I still like my chances


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

on the forums i read electronic shifting is 100% reliable. but the owner of a large NJ bike shop told me he removed electronic and went back to mechanical on his own bike because its' not 100% and he himself had an issue during a sportive


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

spdntrxi said:


> Nearly 2 years electrical... I still like my chances


Over 40 years on mechanical without a single on ride failure...I like my chances better than yours.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

froze said:


> Over 40 years on mechanical without a single on ride failure...I like my chances better than yours.


I broke a crank arm once... F'n carbon


----------



## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

spdntrxi said:


> I broke a crank arm once... F'n carbon


How'd you do that, shifting into the 11? :shocked:


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Fredrico said:


> How'd you do that, shifting into the 11? :shocked:



it was only ~630watts.. sucked.. 5 miles into a fast group ride. THM M3 Cranks... sent back to Germany.. and currently lost in the mail. Those cranks are cursed.


----------



## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

froze said:


> If you're electronic shifter goes out of whack on a ride you're screwed, not so with mechanical. You can't carry around a diagnostic tool for your electronic crap on your bike,
> 
> The fundamental problem with electrical vs mechanical is our ability to fix them on the road if necessary, mechanical can be fixed with a simple mini tool but with electrical you're stuck.


I've been riding electronic for 51 weeks now. I think it took me about 6 months to figure out how to fiddle with it or tune it. I'm not as confident tuning as I am mechanical, but then again, I worked in a shop tuning mechanical for a couple of year so there's that. Part of the reason it took me 6 months to get comfortable tuning electronic is because there was no reason to tune it. It just worked. Once I did a wheel swap, it took me a few extra tries to dial in the shifting than it would have with a mechanical, but now I feel pretty comfortable tuning electronic short of anything major--in which case I'd probably be walking or calling a ride with mechanical as well.


----------



## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

spdntrxi said:


> it was only ~630watts.. sucked.. 5 miles into a fast group ride. THM M3 Cranks... sent back to Germany.. and currently lost in the mail. Those cranks are cursed.


Only putting out 630 watts on just a fast group ride? Why heck, you're better than the pros who only generate at threshold just a measly 405 to 450 watts during the TDF; see: You Versus A Tour de France Pro | Bicycling Or 2 pros at the USA Pro Cycling Challenge only averaged 231 to 350 watts; see: USA Pro Challenge: How do the Pros Compare to You and I. And reading this I still don't find anyone in your league in the watts department; see this discussion on watts: How powerful are the pros? - Cycling Weekly

All I can say if you're generating 630 watts just doing a fast group ride than you need to be a pro...and your group as well, because if you were doing 630 and the others were in your pack then they all were doing similar watts. The next great racing team right here on the forums.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

froze said:


> Only putting out 630 watts on just a fast group ride? Why heck, you're better than the pros who only generate at threshold just a measly 405 to 450 watts during the TDF; see: You Versus A Tour de France Pro | Bicycling Or 2 pros at the USA Pro Cycling Challenge only averaged 231 to 350 watts; see: USA Pro Challenge: How do the Pros Compare to You and I. And reading this I still don't find anyone in your league in the watts department; see this discussion on watts: How powerful are the pros? - Cycling Weekly
> 
> All I can say if you're generating 630 watts just doing a fast group ride than you need to be a pro...and your group as well, because if you were doing 630 and the others were in your pack then they all were doing similar watts. The next great racing team right here on the forums.


That seems a whole lot of supposition. I am a fat old road rider and can pop 700 on out of the saddle pushes easily and all day. Should I go pro? I can still push 1300 full sprint... the Olympics maybe?


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

No dude .. It broke at 630 watts .. I was Chris froome stem watching when it happened.. I never said how long I could hold those kinds of watts.. 

You think to much into it


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

robt57 said:


> That seems a whole lot of supposition. I am a fat old road rider and can pop 700 on out of the saddle pushes easily and all day. Should I go pro? I can still push 1300 full sprint... the Olympics maybe?


Supposition among the pro ranks that have all the accurate gear to gauge such stuff as watts? and keep records of it? and the articles report those records? I don't think it's supposition at all unless you can prove all those reports to be wrong. And you say you can do 700 watts all day long? Well alrighty then, maybe you should be a pro and or an Olympian.

The TDF broadcasters even have the watts figures that they show on TV for any of the riders riding and this next site even says they don't generate the type of power you do and you can do it all day long; see: Bicycle Power - How many Watts can you produce? | Mapawatt According to this you're cruising at almost 3 times the power that a pro cruises at. Either something is wrong with your watt meter or something else is wrong.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Reading comprehension is lost on you... He said 700w pushes.. 
I know what that means to me... It's not FTP


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

spdntrxi said:


> Reading comprehension is lost on you... He said 700w pushes..
> I know what that means to me... It's not FTP


Cute, racing terminology maybe. Push doesn't mean out of the saddle I take it??


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

spdntrxi said:


> Reading comprehension is lost on you... He said 700w pushes..
> I know what that means to me... It's not FTP


Since you know what a push is please explain it for the rest of us here. I know that if you pedal at a lower cadence that's called a push because you have to push harder on the pedals than a person pedaling at higher cadence because you're mashing higher gears, so if that is true then that leads us back to his ability to "push" 700 watts all day.

If by some chance he uses the word push to actually mean interval, where he cranks up to 700 watts for 1 minute than rests for 3 minutes, or something akin to that, then in my book (note I said my book) he missed used the word it and needed to explain that better.

Again, since you said you know what it means to you, then by all means enlighten us...ok fine, since apparently myself and Robt57 are the only ones that doesn't seem to understand what he meant.


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## DaveWC (Sep 21, 2012)

froze said:


> Again, since you said you know what it means to you, then by all means enlighten us...ok fine, since apparently myself and Robt57 are the only ones that doesn't seem to understand what he meant.


I'm guessing that robt57 understands...



robt57 said:


> I am a fat old road rider and can pop 700 on out of the saddle pushes easily and all day.


It seems pretty obvious... out of the saddle pushes. It's where you're moving along at 200w or so when you get out of the saddle & really push yourself and hit 700w at your peak... slow down, recover and continue cycling. Rinse & repeat a few times & call it a day. 

Arguing about whether the word "push" is appropriately used is silly even for this forum. Most would see that he referred to these pushes as out of the saddle & figure it out. Mind you, most would be able to keep track of who actually said it & not argue with the wrong person.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Pretty much what Dave said.. It's not that hard ... Why go outta your way froze .. Let it go

Happy holidays !


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

vagabondcyclist said:


> I've been riding electronic for 51 weeks now. I think it took me about 6 months to figure out how to fiddle with it or tune it. I'm not as confident tuning as I am mechanical, but then again, I worked in a shop tuning mechanical for a couple of year so there's that. Part of the reason it took me 6 months to get comfortable tuning electronic is because there was no reason to tune it. It just worked. Once I did a wheel swap, it took me a few extra tries to dial in the shifting than it would have with a mechanical, but now I feel pretty comfortable tuning electronic short of anything major--in which case I'd probably be walking or calling a ride with mechanical as well.


If a shift cable breaks on a ride, chances are its the rear shifter. Rider is stuck in the smallest cog in back for the trip home. :frown2: Same would be true when the electronics quits. Solid state electronics is bullet proof. No moving parts and software can be rebooted, so i'd guess DI2 might be more reliable than mechanical, unless the servos give out, that is. Those little batteries won't add much weight to your saddle bag, either. 

Brother Grant says bicycling is a manual activity, and therefore is more pleasurable the less functions are automated and the more are "manual." :yesnod: That's one reason I never "upgraded" to click shifting, clipless pedals, carbon frames, and have little than mild curiosity to know how many watts I'm generating, yada yada yada. I have everything I need without all that stuff. 

One appreciates the analogue world from a bike. If some riders want to quantify the experience, fine. I lost interest in that stuff a long time ago.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

froze said:


> The fundamental problem with electrical vs mechanical is our ability to fix them on the road if necessary, mechanical can be fixed with a simple mini tool but with electrical you're stuck.


Every century/gran fondo I've always been on I see someone with a shifter where a spring wore out and tehy can't shift their front or rear derailleur. It happened to me.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

froze said:


> All I can say if you're generating 630 watts just doing a fast group ride than you need to be a pro...and your group as well, because if you were doing 630 and the others were in your pack then they all were doing similar watts. The next great racing team right here on the forums.


To your own words, "very bad and ignorant answer". Why is it on this forum people seem to think since top pro riders have an FTP of around 400-450 it's impossible for an amateur to push anything above that, even 5-10 seconds? You should see the cat 1 sprints here, they all happen at 24.7mph because no one can push more than 450 even for 30s! 

Maybe you need to google "coggan chart". For "untrained" it puts 5s power at 10.17W/kg. So for a 70kg rider that's 712 watts. But as you stated, this is clearly impossible because seemingly 420 is the human limit.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

DaveWC said:


> I'm guessing that robt57 understands...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not trying to argue just trying make sense of what he's saying, 700 watt out of the saddle pushes all day and it's easy, in addition to 1300 watt sprints when Mark Cavendish said he puts out about 1480 watts of power in sprints during races.

Again he should be at least racing local events. For an old fat guy he's doing quite well. I have no idea how many watts I hit because I don't have a method to record it but I doubt I'm close to Robt57 who probably averages 28 or more mph when I'm only at 21...except over the winter then it drops when I pick back up again in the spring.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

froze said:


> Very bad and extremely ignorant answer, your example is so far away from the two items being compared it's obscenely ridiculas. If you're electronic shifter goes out of whack on a ride you're screwed, not so with mechanical. You can't carry around a diagnostic tool for your electronic crap on your bike, but you can carry a phillips driver. While the chances of electronic or mechanical to fail on a ride is slim but it can happen and has happened; so your choice, which you've taken, be 50 or more miles from home and have to call for your mommy to come get you because your electronic system died for some reason, or fix on the side of the road and continue on your merry way.
> 
> There's already been instances, especially in rain, where the electronic system stopped shifting the front derailleur-reset-which caused the front derailleur to move full in and full out jamming the chain; and in rain the rear derailleur has also suffered from outage. Instances of batteries dying on the road, fault of the rider? perhaps but not always as batteries do die from age or short out, but why should we have to put up with such nonsense to ride our bikes?
> 
> The fundamental problem with electrical vs mechanical is our ability to fix them on the road if necessary, mechanical can be fixed with a simple mini tool but with electrical you're stuck.





froze said:


> Not trying to argue just trying make sense of what he's saying, 700 watt out of the saddle pushes all day and it's easy, in addition to 1300 watt sprints when Mark Cavendish said he puts out about 1480 watts of power in sprints during races.


Except his max power (1s) is 1300 and Cav's 30 SECOND power is 1480. It's only 30,000% longer of a time period.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

froze said:


> Very bad and extremely ignorant answer, your example is so far away from the two items being compared it's obscenely ridiculas. If you're electronic shifter goes out of whack on a ride you're screwed, not so with mechanical. You can't carry around a diagnostic tool for your electronic crap on your bike, but you can carry a phillips driver. While the chances of electronic or mechanical to fail on a ride is slim but it can happen and has happened; so your choice, which you've taken, be 50 or more miles from home and have to call for your mommy to come get you because your electronic system died for some reason, or fix on the side of the road and continue on your merry way.
> 
> There's already been instances, especially in rain, where the electronic system stopped shifting the front derailleur-reset-which caused the front derailleur to move full in and full out jamming the chain; and in rain the rear derailleur has also suffered from outage. Instances of batteries dying on the road, fault of the rider? perhaps but not always as batteries do die from age or short out, but why should we have to put up with such nonsense to ride our bikes?
> 
> *The fundamental problem with electrical vs mechanical is our ability to fix them on the road if necessary, mechanical can be fixed with a simple mini tool but with electrical you're stuck*.


I got to get one of those tools. Would have saved me a cab ride and a two speed ride home.

What's the name for this tool that mends broken cables and how do you use it to take apart and repair shimano shifters on the road?


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Jay Strongbow said:


> What's the name for this tool that mends broken cables and how do you use it to take apart and repair shimano shifters on the road?



Ok, so you want to be ridiculas again. Let me help take ridiculas to the extreme. What about the electronic wires that break, than what? oh wait you're going to go wireless, ok the sending unit goes bad now what? By the way sending units aren't all that reliable either, I've gone through 4 wireless computers who sending units all failed in the course of 13 years whereas my wired one lasted 25 years. Oh well, who cares about the small stuff.

More ridiculousness, what if your shifters break? same boat I would be in huh? 

So in reality, if there is such a thing, all the things you mentioned that would affect me would affect you, so you haven't made a point at all have you?


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

froze said:


> Ok, so you want to be ridiculas again. Let me help take ridiculas to the extreme. What about the electronic wires that break, than what? oh wait you're going to go wireless, ok the sending unit goes bad now what? By the way sending units aren't all that reliable either, I've gone through 4 wireless computers who sending units all failed in the course of 13 years whereas my wired one lasted 25 years. Oh well, who cares about the small stuff.
> 
> More ridiculousness, what if your shifters break? same boat I would be in huh?
> 
> So in reality, if there is such a thing, all the things you mentioned that would affect me would affect you, so you haven't made a point at all have you?


I didn't say anything about electronic or wireless so I have no idea why you brought that up in direct response to my asking you about your magic tool that fixes what typically goes wrong with mechanical. Why are you pretending I'm arguing mechanical vs electronic when I clearly did not? I don't own DI2 and never will so why are you talking about me breaking an electric lever and being in your boat? Red Herring perhaps?

Do you have an answer to your outrageous claim or not? So far it's; Not.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

Let's face it, 90% of the problems folks (road riders) face are a direct result of a lack of maintenance. I say this from having worked in a shop, having worked mechanical support for numerous charity rides, and from having been the faculty advisor (who rides with and travels to just about every race) for a collegiate road club. Mechanical or Di2, the folks who don't maintain their gear are going to be the folks who have trouble out on the road--broken cables, chains, dead batteries, gummed up derailleurs, gummed up shifter bodies, over or under lubed chains, rotted tires, and the list goes on. Does stuff happen from just riding along, sure, but mostly not. 

Each system has its weak points and it's up to the end user to maintain the system knowing them. 

Everything breaks. Everything can be fixed, made to limp or sprint home with the right tools, patience, and/or ingenuity (on the road or in the shop). And then there's always duct tape.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I didn't say anything about electronic or wireless so I have no idea why you brought that up in direct response to my asking you about your magic tool that fixes what typically goes wrong with mechanical. Why are you pretending I'm arguing mechanical vs electronic when I clearly did not? I don't own DI2 and never will so why are you talking about me breaking an electric lever and being in your boat? Red Herring perhaps?
> 
> Do you have an answer to your outrageous claim or not? So far it's; Not.


Jay, you went off the deep end so I followed you there, end of discussion.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

froze said:


> Jay, you went off the deep end so I followed you there, end of discussion.


um, no what happened was I asked you a simple question and rather than answering it or admitting you couldn't you decided to argue an argument you wanted to have but had nothing to do with what I asked.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I got to get one of those tools. Would have saved me a cab ride and a two speed ride home.
> 
> What's the name for this tool that mends broken cables and how do you use it to take apart and repair shimano shifters on the road?


If you're worried about a shifter cable bustin', a spare don't take up much room. Cut it to fit a rear derailer, and don't worry about the front. As far as the shimano shifters, ride Campagnolo.


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## trailflow (Sep 7, 2014)

Fredrico said:


> If a shift cable breaks on a ride, chances are its the rear shifter. Rider is stuck in the smallest cog in back for the trip home. :frown2: Same would be true when the electronics quits.


This is not true. Depending on where the cable breaks. If the end tab is still attached and it still has around 8cm of cable remaining. You can remove it from the shifter and feed it directly into the rear derailleur and clamp the bolt at any gear position you want if you move the parallelogram with your hand. 

If the end tab is broke off of the cable. Just remove and use the cable out of the left shifter in the RD the same way and wrap it in a coil. Then on the FD, wind fully in the inner limit screw if you want to keep the chain on the big ring for the ride home.


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## Fox ND (Dec 23, 2015)

Di2. Soon Di3. Then iWatch 4. Then I'm broke. But I'm happy 'cause I just can't ever forget that new gear smell.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

It won't be Di3. It's not numbered versions, its Di2 instead of D.I.I.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

that would be Di2.3, wouldn't it?
When the battery is low on the electonics, the RD still shifts for quite a while to get home.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

UI2 with sprint shifters for a crit bike. DA9000 for an all-round or RR bike, especially if the racer is some sort of a weight weenie. 

Anyone worrying about a broken rear shift cable can just carry an extra cable in their saddle bag.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

mik_git said:


> I have ~60% on my battery, think the last time I charged it was early September maybe... I can't really remember...


My experience is the same. The charge lasts a long time. 

People will run into trouble with their battery dying after leaving the bike leaning against the wall lever-first or leaving the bike in their trunk over night with pressure on the lever. This can activate the system and drain the battery. 



I have noticed an odd zenophobia with certain things in cycling. People fear carbon frames/wheels exploding for no reason, batteries suddenly losing their charge, and disc brakes getting so hot that they will melt the flesh right off your skin. These Luddites are only counterbalanced by the "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY. I NEED THE LATEST AND GREATEST" crowd. That's not to say that there are no reasonable, balanced folks. But the overly opinionated extremes are very funny.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

this thread is scaring me....I'm going back to single speed.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

duriel said:


> that would be Di2.3, wouldn't it?
> When the battery is low on the electonics, the RD still shifts for quite a while to get home.


When 'MY' battery is low, my mechanical shifters still work indefinitely.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> When 'MY' battery is low, my mechanical shifters still work indefinitely.


Until the cable frays.

But yes shocking, there are tradeoffs. Seriously people act like charging Di2 is the end of the world. I have to plug one thing in once every 2 months. OH THE HUMANITY!


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

deviousalex said:


> Until the cable frays.
> 
> But yes shocking, there are tradeoffs. Seriously people act like charging Di2 is the end of the world. I have to plug one thing in once every 2 months. OH THE HUMANITY!


You pick your poison. Personally, I'd prefer worrying about the cable verse worrying about the battery. It's just preference. I know the cable is good for over 2,000 miles from experience and my own view is that cycling is a mechanical experience. I get how others don't feel that way. I just do for myself.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

deviousalex said:


> Until the cable frays.


In over 20 years road cycling I've never had a cable fray as they are tossed out every Spring. Good luck getting that consistency out of digital shifting.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

I have Di2 on three bikes.. one of them for three seasons. 

Never had a cable fray. 

Also, have never had to make an adjustment (after the initial).

I charge the battery on each bike twice a year (beginning and end of each riding season). Never even come close to running low (I watch the battery level on my garmin). 

They all shift flawlessly, every time, in every circumstance. 

The only bike I own right now that isn't Di2 is my dedicated trainer bike (it lives attached to my KICKR). I've honestly been tempted to put Di2 on it as well...


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> In over 20 years road cycling I've never had a cable fray as they are tossed out every Spring. Good luck getting that consistency out of digital shifting.


Huh? Are you saying Di2 shifting degrades over time? Or that the cables go bad?!?!?! That makes no sense at all.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> Good luck getting that consistency out of digital shifting.


 Consistency is the epitome of digital shifting.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Notvintage said:


> In over 20 years road cycling I've never had a cable fray as they are tossed out every Spring. Good luck getting that consistency out of digital shifting.


Over 40 years of riding a bike including racing and of course training, and I never had a cable fray or break, heck my current cables have 3 seasons of use of them now (I average about 3,500 miles a year) and they're still not showing any signs of fraying.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> In over 20 years road cycling I've never had a cable fray as they are tossed out every Spring. Good luck getting that consistency out of digital shifting.


"That" consistency? The consistency of replacing cables every year? yeah, I'm pretty sure you won't get from electric shifting. You're right about that.

Your comment doesn't really make any sense.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Migen21 said:


> I have Di2 on three bikes.. one of them for three seasons.
> 
> Never had a cable fray.





deviousalex said:


> Huh? Are you saying Di2 shifting degrades over time? Or that the cables go bad?!?!?! That makes no sense at all.


Questions, questions, questions


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Notvintage said:


> In over 20 years road cycling I've never had a cable fray as they are tossed out every Spring. Good luck getting that consistency out of digital shifting.





froze said:


> Over 40 years of riding a bike including racing and of course training, and I never had a cable fray or break, heck my current cables have 3 seasons of use of them now (I average about 3,500 miles a year) and they're still not showing any signs of fraying.





deviousalex said:


> Huh? Are you saying Di2 shifting degrades over time? Or that the cables go bad?!?!?! That makes no sense at all.


Maybe, what is being said here, is that with so many trouble free years, there is no need for a, how you say, "upgrade".


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

I'm holding out for wireless Di2


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I <3 Di2.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

factory feel said:


> I <3 Di2.


Seriously. My first Di2 upgrade came in the form of a birthday present from my awesome GF. She consipired with the guys at my favorite LBS to get the kit and have it installed on my BMC GF-01.

Once I had spent some time with it, I found it harder and harder to ride my other bikes. Eventually all of them but one were upgraded. The only holdout (my Dura Ace 9000 SLR01), well, i'm in no hurry to upgrade that. It's pretty amazing as it is. Perhaps something like Wireless DA Di2 might motivate me to upgrade (someday).


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm not exited about wireless.

I enjoy plugging in a usb once in a while into *one* port.


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## thisisthebeave (Aug 30, 2015)

Local Hero said:


> My experience is the same. The charge lasts a long time.
> 
> People will run into trouble with their battery dying after leaving the bike leaning against the wall lever-first or leaving the bike in their trunk over night with pressure on the lever. This can activate the system and drain the battery.
> 
> ...


Disc brakes get STUPID hot on long descents. I got a blister through my leather gloves by touching mine for 2 seconds. Stupid to touch it, I know, but I was curious how hot it got and thought my glove would save me.


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## FeltF75rider (Feb 10, 2012)

thisisthebeave said:


> Disc brakes get STUPID hot on long descents. I got a blister through my leather gloves by touching mine for 2 seconds. Stupid to touch it, I know, but I was curious how hot it got and thought my glove would save me.


Thanks for taking one for the team and sharing your experience, never gave much thought to it but I am concerned about heat and carbon clinchers so its gotta be close to what you felt. I do otbreally see the need for disc other than with carbon hoops but that is another topic, maybe Di2 with hydraulic disc brakes.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

thisisthebeave said:


> Disc brakes get STUPID hot on long descents. I got a blister through my leather gloves by touching mine for 2 seconds. Stupid to touch it, I know, but I was curious how hot it got and thought my glove would save me.


Remember Beloki [sp?] burned off a tubular tire on a descent in the TDF a few years ago and wiped out? Rims get hot enough to soften the glue on tubs. 

Read that disc brakes get so hot on long descents, the grease in the hub bearings softens up into liquid and runs out of the bearings. :shocked: This was several years ago. They may have solved that problem by now.


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I thought Beloki's accident was caused by the road surface melting under the hot sun and he basically high sided the bike which ripped the tub off the rim?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

TmB123 said:


> I thought Beloki's accident was caused by the road surface melting under the hot sun and he basically high sided the bike which ripped the tub off the rim?


This^^^


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Fredrico said:


> Read that disc brakes get so hot on long descents, the grease in the hub bearings softens up into liquid and runs out of the bearings. :shocked: This was several years ago. They may have solved that problem by now.


Oh great, so now if someone needs carbon rims to go aero they also need disc brakes to stop faster which means they also need ceramic bearings so the wheels still turn when the grease goes fluid and leaks out.

And folks wonder why I'm a luddite.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

velodog said:


> Oh great, so now if someone needs carbon rims to go aero they also need disc brakes to stop faster which means they also need ceramic bearings so the wheels still turn when the grease goes fluid and leaks out.
> 
> And folks wonder why I'm a luddite.


because the guys that sell bikes are smart.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Trek_5200 said:


> because the guys that sell bikes are smart.


Yep, and the guys that buy 'em, not so much...


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Two guys I rode with this morning had s-works tarmacs with di2 / hydraulic disc brakes. The ride was fast and wet. We all suffered on the climb and I bombed the descent with one of the disc-tarmac guys. Nobody died.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> My experience is the same. The charge lasts a long time.
> 
> People will run into trouble with their battery dying after leaving the bike leaning against the wall lever-first or leaving the bike in their trunk over night with pressure on the lever. This can activate the system and drain the battery.
> 
> ...


I am with this ^^^^^^


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Pirx said:


> Yep, and the guys that buy 'em, not so much...


Lust. :yesnod: Quite understandable in a sport that inspires so much passionate participation. 

If I had $12 thousand in disposable income, I'd have the latest bling. But I never did, so had to settle with stuff that would last forever, and in standard specs, Italian BBs, 27.2 seat posts, that would have the greatest chance of finding after market parts 30 years in the future. :frown2: 

I can't afford to look at my bikes as playthings, rather as utilitarian tools, for fitness and transportation. Whatever bling is of secondary importance.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Local Hero said:


> Two guys I rode with this morning had s-works tarmac disc bikes with hydraulic brakes and Di2. The ride was fast and wet. We all suffered on the climb and I bombed the descent with one of the disc-tarmac guys. Nobody died.


Were you riding rim brakes?

If you were I'm surprised that you were able to descend faster than one of the disc guys, and keep up with the other.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

velodog said:


> Were you riding rim brakes?
> 
> If you were I'm surprised that you were able to descend faster than one of the disc guys, and keep up with the other.


To be fair, disc brakes on our Saturday Morning World Championship will not help too much. The descent is roughly 3 miles and there are only a few turns. When it is dry brakes are no concern, even through the 50mph+ sweepers -- the faster bros just white knuckle it. In the wet it's possible to bomb it while slightly feathering the brakes here and there. 

The slower descender is more of a triathlete than a competitive cyclist. He's still super strong but the road/crit racers are better bike handlers. 

Like someone else was saying, discs are probably helpful on a steep descent with a series of switchbacks. If it's just a matter of being confident and not crashing or getting blown off the road then discs will not help. 

I race in California and Oregon. I've done plenty of climbing and fast descents but I haven't felt the need for discs. Carbon rims, aluminum rims, whatever. Who knows, maybe I don't know what I'm missing. If I end up spending significant time on one of those S-Works Tarmac DI2 disc bikes I might drink the koolade and _need_ to get disc brakes.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

In NY we had some light rain yesterday. Disc or no disc much to my dismay nobody rode. I went out and had a great ride. To a great extent disc is hype and ignores the reality that most riders choose not to ride in wet conditions.

I went out and had no problem riding with my caliper brakes.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Trek_5200 said:


> In NY we had some light rain yesterday. Disc or no disc much to my dismay nobody rode. I went out and had a great ride. To a great extent disc is hype and ignores the reality that most riders choose not to ride in wet conditions.
> 
> I went out and had no problem riding with my caliper brakes.


Yeah, that's kind of a funny thing, riding in the rain. Many of the "serious cyclists" won't take their precious bicycles out in the rain, and all I see when I'm out in the rain are the GoB's.

Which leads me to ask, how many cyclists have converted their No.1 to electric running gear\disc brakes and relegated their cable actuated running gear\rim braked bike to _rain bike_ service?


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

velodog said:


> Yeah, that's kind of a funny thing, riding in the rain. Many of the "serious cyclists" won't take their precious bicycles out in the rain, and all I see when I'm out in the rain are the GoB's.
> 
> Which leads me to ask, how many cyclists have converted their No.1 to electric running gear\disc brakes and relegated their cable actuated running gear\rim braked bike to _rain bike_ service?



Gob bike?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Trek_5200 said:


> Gob bike?


Yeah, Guy\Gal on bike. Blue jeans, work boots, baseball caps. They're not cyclists as much as people using a bike to get from here to there on whatever bike they could muster.

Riding out of necessity.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I rode through Big Sur today with Ted King. It was wet. Ted was on a Di2 disc bike. I was on sram red with rim brakes. 

Nobody died.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

velodog said:


> Yeah, Guy\Gal on bike. Blue jeans, work boots, baseball caps. They're not cyclists as much as people using a bike to get from here to there on whatever bike they could muster.
> 
> Riding out of necessity.


I have yet to go back to blue jeans, but that's how I started. Now I pull on the Peter Pan outfit and go out on the clear coated black SLX/SP bike with matching fenders, 28C tires, full Super Record gruppo [the original one], friendly rat trap pedals with clips and straps. The original Record headset and bottom bracket are still just fine, thanks to being protected from street water by the fenders. 

I guess most dedicated "cyclists" have at least one bike like this. 

When it snows, I stay home, drive the four wheel drive car, or walk. Not much snow down here in Vuhginny. This is the South.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> I rode through Big Sur today with Ted King. It was wet. Ted was on a Di2 disc bike. I was on sram red with rim brakes.
> 
> Nobody died.


I'm jealous! Big Sur is in the bosom of nature with its awesome, grandiose beauty!

We were in the 30s here outside the nation's capitol, and the sky was spitting sleet. Terrible day for a bike ride. :frown2:


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> I rode through Big Sur today with Ted King. It was wet. Ted was on a Di2 disc bike. I was on sram red with rim brakes.
> 
> Nobody died.


tell me more...how is the traffic this time of year?


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## Fajita Dave (Dec 1, 2015)

Mechanical Dura Ace. I still drive a manual car and I kind of enjoy having to do something on the road bike other than pedal. I like the pivoting levers.

Wireless would be nice to eliminate a couple cables.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Fajita Dave said:


> Mechanical Dura Ace. I still drive a manual car and I kind of enjoy having to do something on the road bike other than pedal. I like the pivoting levers.
> 
> Wireless would be nice to eliminate a couple cables.


Riders should have an opinion about the quality of the shift,not how the shift is done.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Jay Strongbow said:


> "That" consistency? The consistency of replacing cables every year? yeah, I'm pretty sure you won't get from electric shifting. You're right about that.
> 
> Your comment doesn't really make any sense.


Consistency meaning 364 days a year I don't even think about the system. No software updates/glitches, forgetting to charge, cold weather power loss issues. . . I realize reading and comprehension skills don't come easy to some people.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think about changing cables every 2k, versus always checking the battery level.


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## FeltF75rider (Feb 10, 2012)

Charging a battery is a very difficult task. Plug in bike to charger and then powder source. I would much prefer changing cables.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> Consistency meaning 364 days a year I don't even think about the system. No software updates/glitches, forgetting to charge, cold weather power loss issues. . .


More silliness.
Amount of time I think about software updates/glitches: 0
Amount of time I think about forgetting to charge: 0
Amount of time I think about cold weather power loss: 0

Amount of time I spend charging the battery: 1min every 2 months = 6min / year.
I know you spend more than 6min changing your cables.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

tlg said:


> More silliness.
> Amount of time I think about software updates/glitches: 0
> Amount of time I think about forgetting to charge: 0
> Amount of time I think about cold weather power loss: 0
> ...


on my 6500 i change cables every few years. on my dura ace 9000 i drop it off at the bike shop across the street 2-3 times a year and pick it up, while they do other maintenance. 

I think with cables or battery, you pick your poison. some people trust tech, others prefer older technology. i'm in the latter camp.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

Local Hero said:


> I rode through Big Sur today with Ted King. It was wet. Ted was on a Di2 disc bike. I was on sram red with rim brakes.
> 
> Nobody died.


Thank God no one died, my heart was pounding when I heard you were on rim brakes, and knowing that area well and have ridden it many times I can attest to the mass graves from rim brake failures that are at the bottom of some of those cliffs at turns on US 1. I rode that highway on the older single pivot brakes and had to stop the bike before I got to a turn so I could walk it around the curve so I wouldn't end up in those mass graves of dead riders that used rim brakes.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

This thread is like Ground Hog Day.

Over and over and over.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> I think about changing cables every 2k, versus always checking the battery level.


You just hold down two buttons and look for a green light. It's easier than checking tire pressure.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

froze said:


> Thank God no one died, my heart was pounding when I heard you were on rim brakes, and knowing that area well and have ridden it many times I can attest to the mass graves from rim brake failures that are at the bottom of some of those cliffs at turns on US 1. I rode that highway on the older single pivot brakes and had to stop the bike before I got to a turn so I could walk it around the curve so I wouldn't end up in those mass graves of dead riders that used rim brakes.


Actually, I was looking at some bro's insta-linked-face-strava-gram pictures and it appears there was a crash somewhere on the road yesterday. So I investigated. 

This crash was not caused by a dead battery, overheating disc rotors, overheating carbon rims, warped carbon rims, broken cables, >38mm carbon wheels being "blown all over the road" on a descent, or a self-driving google car. 

I hear they crossed wheels.

Surprisingly, nobody died.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

Local Hero said:


> Surprisingly, nobody died.


Like they say at the end of the westerns...

No cyclists were harmed in the making of this thread.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Mechanical is so awesome not a single Pro team on the world tour is using it this year.

2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly
18 teams

13 di2
3 EPS
2 eTap


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

tlg said:


> Mechanical is so awesome not a single Pro team on the world tour is using it this year.
> 
> 2016 WorldTour team bikes guide - Cycling Weekly
> 18 teams
> ...


Pro teams are so awesome, they get to ride what the sponsors give them.

Once upon a time the pros were riding non derailleur bikes and stopping to flip the wheel to change gears, when everybody else were using derailleurs. 
Just cause the pros are doing it, don't make it better.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

velodog said:


> Pro teams are so awesome, they get to ride what the sponsors give them.
> 
> Once upon a time the pros were riding non derailleur bikes and stopping to flip the wheel to change gears, when everybody else were using derailleurs.
> Just cause the pros are doing it, don't make it better.


That's because they weren't allowed to use derailleurs.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm always more interested to know what the pros ride when they aren't on the pro teams pushing product.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> I rode through Big Sur today with Ted King. It was wet. Ted was on a Di2 disc bike. I was on sram red with rim brakes.
> 
> Nobody died.


If someone did die on the coast ride that would be the end of it.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

deviousalex said:


> If someone did die on the coast ride that would be the end of it.


doesn't say anything about what would have occurred if they were on caliper brakes


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## NTA (Apr 4, 2010)

mechanica Ultegra 68 :thumbsup:


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> doesn't say anything about what would have occurred if they were on caliper brakes


I'm guessing 90+% of the coast riders were on calipers and a fair share with carbon wheels.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

deviousalex said:


> That's because they weren't allowed to use derailleurs.


That's right, and like I said, just 'cause the pros use/don't use it, don't make it better.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Trek_5200 said:


> I'm always more interested to know what the pros ride when they aren't on the pro teams pushing product.


Moots w/mehcanical DA & ENVE wheels.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Local Hero said:


> Moots w/mehcanical DA & ENVE wheels.


I saw Christian Vande Velde (retired) in a Hincapie Instagram post recently and he was rolling on a Synapse.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> Moots w/mehcanical DA & ENVE wheels.


For me I'd substitute Seven Axiom SLX in place of Moots(if we're talking Ti). 
ENVE wheels if disc, Dura Ace C-24's if Caliper for the metal.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

I remember Fletcha was working for some British channel. He was on a carbon bike with DA Di2 but his wheelset was 32 3x with CK hubs.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

deviousalex said:


> I remember Fletcha was working for some British channel. He was on a carbon bike with DA Di2 but his wheelset was 32 3x with CK hubs.


How about that? The tried and true. Every rider should have a set of those for when they're out in the middle of nowhere without the team car! :yesnod:


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

Jwiffle said:


> I don't think that is true. You can program the speed at which it shifts, just like DA. 5 settings. At this point, I believe the only real difference between the two is weight and cost. Ultegra is cheaper because the components are outsourced instead of being made in house like DA.


 Think I missed this reply - I believe it was more to do with the servos used, the DA ones were more powerful and therefore a bit snappier, perhaps on the front.

Until now I've been more than content with my DA9000, it's pretty flawless and the only issue I've ever had is a broken rear shift cable at the shifter exit (fairly common by all accounts). Made the "mistake" of riding a DA9070 bike last night and now I find myself looking for excuses to upgrade...


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## Shuffleman (Sep 4, 2013)

DrSmile said:


> Where is the Chorus option?


I have to agree with this one. I love the Campy hoods. If I had to choose between DA and Di2 I would take Dura Ace. I just don't have the love for the electronics.
Give me Athena over Ultegra though.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

factory feel said:


> 9000 is flawless.


Except for eating rear shift cables like M&Ms due to poor cable exit routing geometry at the rear derailleur exit.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> Except for eating rear shift cables like M&Ms due to poor cable exit routing geometry at the rear derailleur exit.


And cassettes exploding....

And right shifter cables breaking inside the shifter (this used to be a campy only feature).....


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

deviousalex said:


> And cassettes exploding.........


Hm, I didn't realize that cassettes weren't electronic\mechanical cross compatible.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

velodog said:


> Hm, I didn't realize that cassettes weren't electronic\mechanical cross compatible.


I'm sure you are joking, so I don't really get what you meant by that post.


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

deviousalex said:


> I'm sure you are joking, so I don't really get what you meant by that post.


it doesn't matter if electonic or mechanical to casettes, their just casettes, they don't care.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

mik_git said:


> it doesn't matter if electonic or mechanical to casettes, their just casettes, they don't care.


Thank you.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

velodog said:


> Thank you.


I know, I wasn't trying to imply the DA Di2 cassettes didn't have the same problem.


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

mik_git said:


> it doesn't matter if electonic or mechanical to casettes, their just casettes, they don't care.


What do you mean? Cassettes have feelings too!


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## mik_git (Jul 27, 2012)

froze said:


> What do you mean? Cassettes have feelings too!


No they don't, they're cold hearted bastards. Struggling up that climb, they don't care, flying down that descent, they don't care, blown up 20km from home. They. Don't. Care.

Until they're worn out, then they start grumbling and skiping about. F'kers


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

mik_git said:


> No they don't, they're cold hearted bastards. Struggling up that climb, they don't care, flying down that descent, they don't care, blown up 20km from home. They. Don't. Care.
> 
> Until they're worn out, then they start grumbling and skiping about. F'kers


Well, if you realize they have teeth you would feed them better, then their not so cold hearted. And you even said that when they wear out the start grumbling and skipping about, I noticed that about people when they get older too!


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

I knew that I shouldn't have laughed at these comments, my DA cassette exploded on me today


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## froze (Sep 15, 2002)

TmB123 said:


> I knew that I shouldn't have laughed at these comments, my DA cassette exploded on me today


Unfortunately SOME of those DA cassettes to have a track record of doing just what yours probably did, Shimino supposedly corrected it with the newest ones released in mid 2014. the weird part is Shimino would warranty if it was creaking within the first year of course, but if destroyed itself they wouldn't? There is more info here: Shimano Makes Running Change for Dura-Ace 9000 Cassettes to Eliminate Creaking (UPDATED) - Bikerumor

Unless you're racing there is no need for a Dura Ace cassette anyways, they don't last as long as the Ultegra due to the use of titanium cogs which wear out fast and are expensive, and besides the all steel cogged Ultegra's slight weight difference is insignificant. If you are racing you could always use a Ultegra cassette for your training rides and simply switch to Dura Ace cassette on race day, but personally I don't think the 20 grams of weight would matter even on race day.

Just a thought.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

+1. I'm on Dura Ace except for chain, rear cassette and bottom bracket which is Ultegra 6800


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## TmB123 (Feb 8, 2013)

The DA cassette came with the bike (early 2013) but I did actually swap it out with an Ultegra cassette some time in 2013 to diagnose a creak as I was aware of the cracking issues of the carbon carrier (which turned out to be the BB) but put the DA cassette back on my new wheels I got in August. It has an Ultegra one back on it now. I'm just glad it didn't do more damage when it let go.


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