# Stan's Grail vs Velocity Aileron



## justaute (Nov 16, 2014)

Anyone has experience with both of these rims? I've done some search on the Velocity Aileron, but haven't found much extended feedback.

I'm building a set of disc wheels for CX/gravel/road riding. I'm ~6'1" & ~210 lbs, so strength and stiffness are important. Of course, within reason, the lighter the better. 

In general, I'm relatively familiar with Stan's/Notube products from my mtb background, but am not with Velocity. How is Velocity's reputation/quality?

Thanks.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

I think velocity's reputation/quality is equivalent to Stans. Both are widely used if there is some issue they are quick to make things right.

I haven't used that grail, or know anyone that has one, but I do have the aileron. It's a very solid rim but it's not the lightest but neither am I at 220lbs. I have it laced to shim cx-75 hubs so they're laced 28/28 and they're my CX training wheels I was told that because they're wider than velocity deep V and taller than dyads they should be stronger than either from a design persepctive. The weight of the rims suggest they didn't machine away a ton of aluminum to make them weak either.

I haven't tried the ailerons tubeless yet as I haven't worn out my few remaining CX clinchers yet, probably something I'll end up with next year. The rims should be wide enough to go tubeless with narrower mtb tires so I'm going to try some 1.8" tires at some point but everything is covered in snow now so probably something for next spring.

Based on what I know of most stans rims, the stans are probably lighter and better for tubeless and the velocity will be more durable and stiffer but heavy. I think stans generally goes after the racer crowd with focusing on low weight and tubeless functionality where velocity focuses on less frills and something that keeps working years later. Both should be very good rims though.

To add to the list, pacenti has some nice options as well as does boyd cycling.


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## justaute (Nov 16, 2014)

Hey, thanks much for the detailed input. Terrific information.

You're right about Pacenti. After I posted here last night, I found out about the new Pacenti SL25. Basically, Aileron, Grail and the new SL25 all seem to share a similar profile (i.e. ~25/26mm depth, ~24/25mm OD, & ~20 ID). Weight wise, I think the delta among these rims will be de minimis -- at least to me.

I am definitely staying with the tubeless route as its' just easier for me. Good to hear Velocity has a good rep. Thanks again.




bikerector said:


> I think velocity's reputation/quality is equivalent to Stans. Both are widely used if there is some issue they are quick to make things right.
> 
> I haven't used that grail, or know anyone that has one, but I do have the aileron. It's a very solid rim but it's not the lightest but neither am I at 220lbs. I have it laced to shim cx-75 hubs so they're laced 28/28 and they're my CX training wheels I was told that because they're wider than velocity deep V and taller than dyads they should be stronger than either from a design persepctive. The weight of the rims suggest they didn't machine away a ton of aluminum to make them weak either.
> 
> ...


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Are the Ailerons welded? Not that you really need welded on a disc wheelset. But at the price point I saw them going for when I considered them...[prior to deciding on the SL25s].

I just got my SL25s delivered yesterday. Just under $200.00 with 4 wheels worth of tubeless tape, shipping, and a Tee Shirt. 

They are notably lighter than the Ailerons, but I don't know if that make them less strong or durable. I have several A23 wheelsets I have built up, and the AL seems to the soft and to the not so stiff side to me. I would assume the Airleron to be similar material. Although should be stiffer at 28mm VS A23. 

If the SL25 is harder AL, stiffness could be enhanced as well as durability. As long as not so hard it is brittle of course. Pacenti has no history of this to be fair.

You seem to want stronger. I am actually concerned this new wheelset may will be too stiff for my SL4 Roubaix. [no need to make it stiffer!] 

So I am going 32x Lasers, even thought I am 210. But road use only for me. Probably would not use the lasers for a 29er set. Although I have read big guys doing it with no issues w/disc wheels as long as high spoke counts are employed.

I have an Aerohead Revolution 32x wheelset I built in 1999 which I have used off road mainly, and when I was 230 lbs. Somehow I broke a front spoke last year on a slow road ride with the wife.. PING!!


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## justaute (Nov 16, 2014)

Look forward to seeing your build with those NOS XTR hubs.



robt57 said:


> Are the Ailerons welded? Not that you really need welded on a disc wheelset. But at the price point I saw them going for when I considered them...[prior to deciding on the SL25s].
> 
> I just got my SL25s delivered yesterday. Just under $200.00 with 4 wheels worth of tubeless tape, shipping, and a Tee Shirt.
> 
> ...


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

A few thoughts from a wheel builders perspective.

The SL25 and the Grail are both very well made, and made in the same factory. As has been mentioned, they're dang near the same rim on paper as far as weight/dimensions are concerned. I've got a custom road/cx/go-anywhere bike on order that will be hydro discs, and it'll have two wheelsets. For the road I'm going to use the Grail rims and White Industries CLD hubs, 24H up front, 28H out back, Sapim CX-Ray spokes. The front wheel is built, the rear I just haven't had time to do yet. The 2nd set will be a bit more burly for knobby tires and will use the SL25 rims, probably in a 28/28 or 32/28 spoke count, haven't quite decided yet. Bike wont be ready till Feb/March, so I'm not in a huge rush.

Why one of each? I want to try them both, and see how various tires work on each.

The Aileron is deeper, but Velocity's quality is not on quite the same level as Pacenti or Stans IMO. The finish isn't as dark or even, there are always drilling chips left over inside Velocity rims to shake or fish out. In the MTB world Velocity's have a bad reputation for denting easily. The polished Aileron rims I've built took over an hour of prep work before I could start building them, there was polishing compound caked inside all the spoke holes, the tire bed was dirty with polish compound, etc. Does any of that matter for the end user? Not really, other than the ano finish not being as good as others. 

A set of polished Ailerons I built a while back:



Shavings.



And here's my own personal wheels...well, the front one anyhow. A few more pics of the rim and a quick write up on my blog here: In Depth: Stan?s NoTubes Grail Disc Road Rim









(Decals have already been removed for a cleaner look)


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

This thread caught my eye and I figured I'd toss in a bit of my own experience to share and give a bump.

I built up a pair of Ailerons in early September using some older Ritchey WCS hubs (28h) I had from a friend (the front has their "skraxle" to give you an idea of their vintage) and DT competition spokes with alloy nips. The build was fairly uneventful though I'd have to second dgaddis1's comments on Velocity's poor finish and lack of attention to small details before sending their rims out the door. 

1. While there were only a few shavings in mine, I did need to lightly clean up the holes with a small dremel grinding bit to help the nipples seat and spin smoothly. the edges on the holes were quite rough.

2. The seam is welded and I needed to file down the weld on one rim so I could actually true the wheel as the rough weld created a high spot that made it difficult.

3. The decals were placed toward the outer edge of the rim making the truing process more difficult until I removed them. (Hint: Velocity, if you want us to keep the decals on place them in a location where they wont be a nuisance while in the truing stand).

4. Finally, after removing the decals there was a spot where the anodizing wasn't very thick and so now there is a spot the size of a quarter on the rim. It looks like a light sharpie was used (I suppose I can post a pic later if someone wants). They offered to send me new decals, but I declined.

Now, with all that said, I really like the way these rims ride. They are on a Salsa Vaya that gets lots of miles on both road and gravel (more on gravel). They feel very solid, but not heavy (unlike the Bonty rims I was using on those same hubs). My rims weighed in at 449g and 452g each - well under the 460g weights on the website.

I originally had some Schwalbe Marathon Supremes with tubes on them for the road and light gravel. I'd originally only used only one wrap of blue Velocity tubeless tape and while they are not tubeless tires I'd previously aired them up tubeless on some Bonty rims. As winter and worse conditions approached I added another lap of tape put on a pair of Ritchey Shields - tubeless. These are not tubeless tires either and I run them at around 50-55 psi max. They've been going strong and holding air nicely and ride quite well. 

I did a short 40-mile "Sprint" gravel grinder a couple of weeks ago and they rolled along without complaint (my leg's were another story ;-)) and have not needed any truing in spite of the odd single track detour on the way back from work.

My next wheelset will require a front thru-axel for a new carbon gravel bike (still TBD, though the Asylum Meuse is the current frontrunner) and I'm leaning towards the Grails on a set of DT350 hubs (28h) for economy and the ability to change axel configurations at a lighter weight. I suppose I should look the the Pacenti rims as well... 

There's more than my .02


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## seely (Feb 13, 2007)

Stevereeneo said:


> This thread caught my eye and I figured I'd toss in a bit of my own experience to share and give a bump.
> 
> I built up a pair of Ailerons in early September using some older Ritchey WCS hubs (28h) I had from a friend (the front has their "skraxle" to give you an idea of their vintage) and DT competition spokes with alloy nips. The build was fairly uneventful though I'd have to second dgaddis1's comments on Velocity's poor finish and lack of attention to small details before sending their rims out the door.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify one point, our rims are not welded. We actually use a sleeved join. There's an aluminum "joiner" that has the same profile of the rim, just slightly smaller. The rim is brought together and the adhesive activates and sets.


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

seely said:


> Just to clarify one point, our rims are not welded. We actually use a sleeved join. There's an aluminum "joiner" that has the same profile of the rim, just slightly smaller. The rim is brought together and the adhesive activates and sets.
> View attachment 302758
> View attachment 302759


I stand corrected! Thanks for the information, I appreciate the clarification.
S


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## seely (Feb 13, 2007)

Stevereeneo said:


> I stand corrected! Thanks for the information, I appreciate the clarification.
> S


Anytime! I actually just built up a set of Ailerons for myself... can't wait to get out on them!


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## Stevereeneo (Aug 19, 2003)

Those wheels look sharp! What kind of hubs did you use? How many spokes? 3x?

The polished rims do look nice, especially with the gum wall rubber. 👍

S


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## expatbrit (Oct 16, 2013)

While neither the Grail nor the SL25 was (quite) out when I got my new wheels, I am extremely happy with my Aileron/WI CLD wheels that dgaddis1 built up for me. (Not the shiny ones). I don't know how much cleanup he had to do, but they look great and ride well.


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## seely (Feb 13, 2007)

Stevereeneo said:


> Those wheels look sharp! What kind of hubs did you use? How many spokes? 3x?
> 
> The polished rims do look nice, especially with the gum wall rubber. 👍
> 
> S


They're going on my Surly Straggler build, so I built them up for strength > weight. So the build is 32h, DT double butted spokes, DT (purple) alloy nips, laced 3x to our (I believe) standard ATB disc hub. I like these hubs for the large Japanese cartridge bearings (4 bearings in the rear, I believe) and steel freehub body. They aren't light, but they are reliable. 

The tires, interestingly enough, are standard Panaracer Pasela PT's setup tubeless. I'm usually big on advocating using proper tubeless designated tires, but Ira Ryan's success with A23's and Pasela's on the Oregon Outback race got me curious. I have to say, these setup easier than many tubeless-specific models I've tried. Will be curious to get them out on the road.


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## farva (Jun 24, 2005)

Just to clarify, when you say "polished" on the aileron rims, do you mean clear anodized? Otherwise they'd require constant upkeep to maintain their luster. Thanks


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## seely (Feb 13, 2007)

farva said:


> Just to clarify, when you say "polished" on the aileron rims, do you mean clear anodized? Otherwise they'd require constant upkeep to maintain their luster. Thanks


Nope, they are actually polished locally by a company that does a lot of Harley parts, hence the upcharge. Honestly, we've found after doing this for a few years that they require very little, if any, additional maintenance to maintain the finish, beyond the standard wash n' wipe.


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## benmills (May 13, 2014)

I'm really interested in building up a set of Grails/Ailerons/Pacentis for my Salsa Vaya. I like the fact that I could stick with the wider Vaya tires or go with something narrower when I want the Vaya to be more of a road bike. My question is what tire pressures will these rims allow? The sticker on the Grail specifies a MAX tire pressure of only 45psi for 32mm tires. My new Vittoria Hyper 38mm tires specify a MINIMUM pressure of 60psi. The Clement X'PLOR MSO 40mm tires that came with the Vaya have a minimum of 55psi. Are the Grail max pressures just for tubeless or are they overly conservative?


My ultimate goal is to have a set of 38mm/40mm tires for general use and a set of 28mm/32mm for faster road riding. Eventually I would like to go tubeless, but it seems like there are limited options right now outside knobby cyclocross tires.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

benmills said:


> I'm really interested in building up a set of Grails/Ailerons/Pacentis for my Salsa Vaya. I like the fact that I could stick with the wider Vaya tires or go with something narrower when I want the Vaya to be more of a road bike. My question is what tire pressures will these rims allow? The sticker on the Grail specifies a MAX tire pressure of only 45psi for 32mm tires. My new Vittoria Hyper 38mm tires specify a MINIMUM pressure of 60psi. The Clement X'PLOR MSO 40mm tires that came with the Vaya have a minimum of 55psi. Are the Grail max pressures just for tubeless or are they overly conservative?
> 
> 
> My ultimate goal is to have a set of 38mm/40mm tires for general use and a set of 28mm/32mm for faster road riding. Eventually I would like to go tubeless, but it seems like there are limited options right now outside knobby cyclocross tires.


I would disregard the minimum pressures. At those widths it would be a pretty high pressure for anything but pavement. I run 32mm tires at that PSI and I'm 220lbs. Minimum tire pressures on tires are created by lawyers, they're not going to magically fall off the rim until they ride like they're almost flat.

The max numbers on the rim by stan's is worth being a little more cautious on. Their iron cross rims had a similar max psi and there were reports of tires blowing off the rims if you exceeded it by too much. I believe running road tires on those was a no go. I think that was even the case when running tires tubed.

Look at Seely's post above on the panaracer paesla's, they're supposed to setup tubeless decent and they're available in the width you're looking at.


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## seely (Feb 13, 2007)

bikerector said:


> Look at Seely's post above on the panaracer paesla's, they're supposed to setup tubeless decent and they're available in the width you're looking at.



*****Disclaimer: I do not endorse running non-tubeless ready tires as tubeless****** 

That said, they seem to be holding great though Ira mentioned they had issues over 60psi. It took a little bit of work to get them to seat but they fit really snug, so I'm expecting them to hold on the rims fine. 

As far as min/max pressure, I'd say the minimum isn't super important, but both the max on the rim and tire are. We don't really have a published min/max for the Aileron, but it's definitely designed as a high pressure rim catering to wider tires.


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