# trek madone 5.2 2008 bottom bracket play



## joker

hi folks i've had my new trek madone 5.2 since october 2008 and have a lot of play at the crankset bottom bracket area , the bike was fitted with new bearing races today but there is still lots of play , the chainset is dura ace and is new since october also , i've only done about 2000 miles , has anyone else had problembs like this


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## zac

Joker this is a quirk with these BBs. You have new bearings, so I would go ahead a reseat them and retorque the crank arms. 

I am on my phone, but do a search on my posts starting about 1/08 about bearings. Also search for the post about pics on a Madone BBS. 

What I have found: is you have to seat and torque the bearings and crankset to spec. Then take it for a ride or two. Then go back and loosen and retorque the arms to spec. 

HTH
zac


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## eff_dee

Is this a flaw with the carbon bearing seats I wonder ?


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## joker

hi , i've taken the bearing races out and reset them , no difference , the left hand bearing race seems slack in the frame , i'm guessing this is what is causing the problemb, the crankset side seems ok , but the crankset is moving from side to side


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## gormleyflyer2002

mine did the same thing, DA cranks, on the non drive side also. You can re torque the crank arms as many times as u like. If the bearing is loose in the bore you'll feel the crank moving. Trek was great, I tried new bearings, didn't change, they replaced the frame. I'm sure they are aware of it, have your dealer call the area rep.......the tooling or design needs some improving.

I could fit a .0015" shim between the bearing OD and the socket bore. 

not sure it matters......5.5 64cm


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## zac

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> mine did the same thing, DA cranks, on the non drive side also. You can re torque the crank arms as many times as u like. If the bearing is loose in the bore you'll feel the crank moving. Trek was great, I tried new bearings, didn't change, they replaced the frame. I'm sure they are aware of it, have your dealer call the area rep.......the tooling or design needs some improving.
> 
> I could fit a .0015" shim between the bearing OD and the socket bore.
> 
> not sure it matters......5.5 64cm


Following up on this, absolutely! If your bearings don't fit snug, and you are sure you have them seated properly, then either the wrong bearing or the frame socket is f'd.

One thing to check or omit. If you are using the center 2 piece sleeve, that covers the spindle, make sure the flanges are seated perfectly. If those are sticking out even a fraction of a mm, especially on the NDS, that will prevent the bearing from fully seating. If you cannot get the sleeves to fit, just take them out, you don't really need them. 

Note that the bearings fit so precisely that you should be unable to remove the NDS bearing just by pulling it out with your fingers. You should have to lightly tap around the bearing from the other side with a dowel rod or some similar soft instrument that fits in through the BB shell. Chances are the DS bearing will come out on the spindle with the DS crank arm when you take that off.

Make sure that after removal that the socket is perfectly clean. Even a small piece of debris, like a grain of sand, would prevent these bearings from seating. Lightly, and I stress lightly, coat the socket surface with grease. Then carefully insert a clean bearing in the Left (ND) side on the socket. It should go in with some difficulty, and indeed, you may have to lightly tap it/or pull it into place. The key is to prevent it from canting in the socket, as the fit is so precise, that this could damage some parts. If the bearing just slides right in without any pressure whatsoever, and is loose in the socket, then there is something wrong.

The NDS is fully seated when you can place the dust seal over the bearing and it is no more than flush with the outer surface of the BB shell. The seal should indeed be ever so slightly recessed into the shell so as to hold it in place.

HTH
zac


EDIT: Here are some pictures of what the you should be looking at and for. http://gallery.me.com/maczac/100053

EDIT II: What color are the seals on your Enduro bearings? They should be black. If they are blue, then they should be replaced. These are not the outer seals, but the seals that are on each side of the cartridge itself.


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## joker

hi zac , the bearing race on the non drive side just falls out no pulling or preasure at all it's loose in the frame , i can move it from side to side with my fingers it's so slack .the new bearing race is black. i think the frame itsself is worn .


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## MANTEIGA

QUOTE: "Trek was great, I tried new bearings, didn't change, they replaced the frame. I'm sure they are aware of it, have your dealer call the area rep.......the tooling or design needs some improving."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

so... the sockets weren't tooled right?? they were too big??
very strange!?

you'd think trek (especially trek..) would use the same cutting tool for all the bb jobs?
was the precision fit socket machined too deep or too wide..?


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## joker

MANTEIGA said:


> Trek was great, I tried new bearings, didn't change, they replaced the frame. I'm sure they are aware of it, have your dealer call the area rep.......the tooling or design needs some improving.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> so... the sockets weren't tooled right?? they were too big??
> very strange!?
> 
> you'd think trek (especially trek..) would use the same cutting tool for all the bb jobs?
> was the precision fit socket machined too deep or too wide..?



hi MANTEIGA , the bottom bracket races used to fit fine but the bottom bracket area on the non drive side has worn down so that now the bearing races are slack in the frame causing the crankset to move from side to side , i can't even ride on my turbo trainer without it clattering and clunking from side to side .


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## zac

I hope this is not pandemic, and is just an isolated experience. I know of one other Madone that had socket issues on the HS, it was a cracked Head Tube on a 64cm frame.

Have you carefully examined the BB shell for cracks?

With that type of play, it is not right, bring it to your LTD for a possible warranty inspection-claim

FWIW, I have had two of the new style Madones, I put well over 5k miles on the first one, don't recall, and it did not experience these issues. I have well over 10k on my second one and it is just fine. But I routinely service both the BB and HS...probably once every other week in the winter depending on crud I have ridden through, and couple times during the regular season. I rode both of them through New England winters. It is hell on the bearings, but the shells have held up just fine. I wash my bike frequently too.

zac


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## zac

joker said:


> hi MANTEIGA , the bottom bracket races used to fit fine but the bottom bracket area on the non drive side has worn down so that now the bearing races are slack in the frame causing the crankset to move from side to side , i can't even ride on my turbo trainer without it clattering and clunking from side to side .


I just don't understand how the shell wore down. The only thing I can think is that when your bike was assembled, that the inner sleeves were not properly seated and that prevented the bearing from being fully seated and thus allowed the bearing to wobble and slowly eat away at the shell.

That thing should fit so tight that any chance for play is really difficult. I would imagine that even a bent spindle would not fit, it is so precise, unless the spindle itself was straight, but not at right angles to the plain of the rings/spider, thus inducing a wobble as you pedal under power.

Anyway, good luck, definitely bring it in for warranty


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## MANTEIGA

*....*



joker said:


> hi MANTEIGA , the bottom bracket races used to fit fine but the bottom bracket area on the non drive side has worn down so that now the bearing races are slack in the frame causing the crankset to move from side to side , i can't even ride on my turbo trainer without it clattering and clunking from side to side .


WORN DOWN?!
that scares me.......
 :confused5: :eek6:  :confused5:

what the @#%k is going on here zac???
( i ask you cause of your expertise in the matter... you were the first to
disassemble a madone bb shell and post visually to the internet.... your photos have saved
me a lot of grief in the past... )

edit: thanks


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## MANTEIGA

*....*

can you post macro pictures of the bb with the seated races?
when you feel around the perimeter of the shell; do you sense variance with your 
fingers? any roughness or sign of wear compared to the NDS?

very... very strange?


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## zac

MANTEIGA said:


> can you post macro pictures of the bb with the seated races?
> when you feel around the perimeter of the shell; do you sense variance with your
> fingers? any roughness or sign of wear compared to the NDS?
> 
> very... very strange?


1- tell me precisely the photos and angles and next time I have it apart I'll take some shots. 

2- not sure I understand about feeling around the shell? Do you mean the inside with the bearings out? If so then yes it is a rough surface where the carbon and bonding was "net moulded" into a "precision socket." TBS not sure I would be able to feel any variance to roundness. 

3- if the bearing cartridge feels anything but buttery smooth when you spin it in your fingers it is toast. Any grainy feel whatsoever indicates the bearing is gone. Furthermore, any lateral play of the inner and outer races along the axis likewise indicates a dead bearing.

HTH
zac


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## gormleyflyer2002

I can't tell you what caused this problem exactly, the bearing bore location doesn't look like a machined finish. The BB width looked like a finished face.
I'm pretty close friends with my dealer and trust him when he says this is the first loose BB he's seen. His rep however was not surprised and replaced the frame over the phone on his word. (very impressive) On this particular frame the NDS bearing fit was loose from new, this was a replacement/warranty frame as my original broke (cracked seat tube above the BB). He has replaced a few with this problem, cracks above the chainrings on the seat tube. 

This is my 3rd madone in 12 months, they all had a slightly different ride quality and road feedback .......some of this is due to Trek being brave enough to make 64cm carbon raod frame. 



MANTEIGA said:


> QUOTE: "Trek was great, I tried new bearings, didn't change, they replaced the frame. I'm sure they are aware of it, have your dealer call the area rep.......the tooling or design needs some improving."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> so... the sockets weren't tooled right?? they were too big??
> very strange!?
> 
> you'd think trek (especially trek..) would use the same cutting tool for all the bb jobs?
> was the precision fit socket machined too deep or too wide..?


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## MANTEIGA

zac said:


> 1- tell me precisely the photos and angles and next time I have it apart I'll take some shots.
> 
> 2- not sure I understand about feeling around the shell? Do you mean the inside with the bearings out? If so then yes it is a rough surface where the carbon and bonding was "net moulded" into a "precision socket." TBS not sure I would be able to feel any variance to roundness.
> 
> 3- if the bearing cartridge feels anything but buttery smooth when you spin it in your fingers it is toast. Any grainy feel whatsoever indicates the bearing is gone. Furthermore, any lateral play of the inner and outer races along the axis likewise indicates a dead bearing.
> 
> HTH
> zac




oh... sorry zac.....
i meant the OP to post a pic of the loose seating bearing races...
and if any damage was caused to the OP's bb net molded socket that would cause this loose fit; i wondered if it would it be noticable feeling around for any damage..ie: not smooth surface, cracks, etc.

i was simply noting you as an expert in this area, and wanted your opinion to the OP's hypothesis of carbon damage to the shell area via friction, blunt force, etc.


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## joker

hi , there is no obvious damage just by looking at or feeling the shell with your finger , the race is just not a tight fit and i can feel movement of the race in the shell when i move it with my fingers , hope this helps , the bike is in the lbs at the moment , and their having a look to see if its going to be sent for warranty .


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## joker

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> mine did the same thing, DA cranks, on the non drive side also. You can re torque the crank arms as many times as u like. If the bearing is loose in the bore you'll feel the crank moving. Trek was great, I tried new bearings, didn't change, they replaced the frame. I'm sure they are aware of it, have your dealer call the area rep.......the tooling or design needs some improving.
> 
> I could fit a .0015" shim between the bearing OD and the socket bore.
> 
> not sure it matters......5.5 64cm



Hi gormleyflyer i'm glad Trek were good to you , I have just been told by my lbs that Trek are going to supply a shim to take up the slack on my frame , I must say i'm not at all happy about this , i'm not a happy bunny , in fact i'm completely pissed off with this , in my veiw the frame should be replaced .


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## jlaramie

I've got the same nds fit problem om my replacement frame Trek is sending a "slightly larger" bearing to fix the problem. Folks at Boca Bearing never heard of this fix and don't offer this option we'll see if it works soon enough


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## gormleyflyer2002

i got the "larger bearing also".........if u know anything about bearings you'll know why this is pretty funny............wonder what color your new (new) frame will be.


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## PJ352

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> i got the "larger bearing also".........*if u know anything about bearings you'll know why this is pretty funny............*wonder what color your new (new) frame will be.


I know a fair amount about bearings (grade/ composition/ sizes/ loose/ cartridge) and have done all my own overhauls since the mid 80's, but :blush2: .... your 'pretty funny' remark escapes me. Please explain.


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## zac

joker said:


> Hi gormleyflyer i'm glad Trek were good to you , I have just been told by my lbs that Trek are going to supply a shim to take up the slack on my frame , I must say i'm not at all happy about this , i'm not a happy bunny , in fact i'm completely pissed off with this , in my veiw the frame should be replaced .


I would be interested to see what happens, but no real reason why a shim would not be effective if done correctly. If the socket is round and the bearing is round a proper shim should not matter a lick. The critical aspects are that the bearings must be concentric, and their axes must be parallel, and indeed, must be the same. The width of the outer race on the cartridge bearing is nothing more than a shim itself, so if a shim fits and allows the above parameters, it should work without issue. 

Just a couple of observations, while the net moulded process and the making and alignment of the precision sockets are a trade secret of Trek, it seems to me that the sockets are not machined in the sense that they are bored with a cutter. Instead they seem to be pressed on mandrel/mould before the carbon sets up.

zac


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## joker

Hi folks just a little more info ,i said to my lbs that i was not happy at all with a shim being fitted to the worn frame ,so i asked if i could trade in my trek frame for somthing else, Giant , Cervelo , somthing like that and they said no, and i asked why not and they said cos your frame is fu**ed ,these were the exact words,this may explain why i don't want a shim fitted,and why i expect nothing less than a brand new frame through warranty .


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## gormleyflyer2002

PJ352 said:


> I know a fair amount about bearings (grade/ composition/ sizes/ loose/ cartridge) and have done all my own overhauls since the mid 80's, but :blush2: .... your 'pretty funny' remark escapes me. Please explain.


Ball bearings have many different tolerances, internal clearence (eg,C3), the fit tolerance on the shaft, in the bore or housing (eg, H6). All will influence the performance if they are not assembled to the design specification for a particular application………The one part I have never seen change is the bearing size, a 40mm bearing is always a 40mm bearing…….nobody makes or mass produces 40.05 mm bearings.

A shim would work just fine IMHO, it worked on mine while I waited for a new frame. In the grand scheme of things a bicycle is a pretty low tech machine. I used some Starrett shim stock (.001”) …..dry fit it in the bore, it worked just fine. …….. buuuuuut, you bought a new bike and that’s exactly what you should have received. Your LBS needs to step up and put some pressure on their Trek rep.


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## MANTEIGA

*...*

this is #@%&ing nutz!?:confused5:


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## joker

Trek are going to have a look at the frame , spoke to them on the phone and things look a bit more promising , i'll give an update when i know the outcome .


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## niterider

*Give Trek a chance*

I had a BB issue with my 08 5.2. LBS played around for a 2 weeks trying to get the play out. They tried new bearings, new crank and wavy washers. They kept telling me Trek wouldn't warranty the frame. It took a 5-minute call from me to Trek and it was all set up. Trek will work with you, just let them go through the process before you get too worked up.


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## jlaramie

Wasn't pleased with idea of fix I know they can do better , LBS spoke to trek who agreed to replace frame but in holding pattern due to color selection[ orange or astana] hope they get around to making some 58's sometime soon


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## chadjodi

I had the same problem with m 2008 6.9. 2 mos of new bearing, etc. I finally convinced trek to bring the frame back for a look and they immediately replaced it as the net molded cups were ovalized, i guess a defect. I am guessing this was a problem for any of the bikes that saw real use.


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## coyotebush

I had a similar problem with my 2008 5.2. Trek replaced the frame with a 2009 model and my LBS lent me a very nice demo bike until the new frame arrived. I didn't miss even a day of riding.

After 6 months my new frame is back in the shop for ... guess what ... bottom bracket play. I'm waiting to find out what the problem is.


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## coyotebush

*Trek has fix for problem*

Update on the Madone bottom bracket play --

Trek is shipping out new bearings, which are about .001" bigger than the originals. (I assume the race is slightly larger, not the bearings themselves.) Apparently, the bearing set is being manufactured as a special fix for this problem.

The new bearings should arrive in a couple days. Both Trek and my LBS have been great about doing it as a warranty repair.


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## knl66

I had a similar problem with my 08 6.5 performance that I bought from a good friend. He'd ridden +/- 1500miles before I got it. Second ride for me...slop in BB, diff shifting front derailleur. Friend who I bought it from, (mechanic at LBS), called Trek tech, said to replace the bearings. Done, no problems since. FWIW, the wave washer (using a SRAM Red crank) was gone when we took the BB apart at the shop. Friend knows he put it in when he swapped the Bonty crank for the SRAM.


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## gman3

Ive got a 5.1. At about 8k miles the bottom bracket bearing completly came apart. This last week end I heard some noise and also found play in the bottom bracket. Dealer is ordering the bearings but I will be checking after installation for play. I think something is wrong


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## zac

coyotebush said:


> Update on the Madone bottom bracket play --
> 
> Trek is shipping out new bearings, which are about .001" bigger than the originals. (I assume the race is slightly larger, not the bearings themselves.) Apparently, the bearing set is being manufactured as a special fix for this problem.
> 
> The new bearings should arrive in a couple days. Both Trek and my LBS have been great about doing it as a warranty repair.


Before I would accept this as a "fix" I would want to know a few things: 
1) was your original bearing set undersized and a bad batch? 
2) are these new bigger bearings going to be distinguishable in some way from a standard set?
3) if so, are they going to be widely available and orderable from 3rd party sources?

Is this something that Trek has identified as an issue on some Madones?

Early last year I had heard of an issue with some bearing sets that were being pulled (IIRC they were identified by blue seals as opposed to black) but I had never heard any followup on that.

I keep spare bearing sets on hand as I go through a set at least once a year and have not had the issues as are being identified in this thread. But tooling an outer race surface .001" bigger in diameter is no easy feat, and to me, it seems, it would be more cost effective for Trek to replace the frame as opposed to doing a one-off bearing. While it is probably not really a one-off bearing, but more like an identified issue and they had bearings made up to cover the larger socket diameters on the frames. I would really want to know the answer to this.

zac


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## joker

coyotebush said:


> I had a similar problem with my 2008 5.2. Trek replaced the frame with a 2009 model and my LBS lent me a very nice demo bike until the new frame arrived. I didn't miss even a day of riding.
> 
> After 6 months my new frame is back in the shop for ... guess what ... bottom bracket play. I'm waiting to find out what the problem is.



i'm glad you never missed a day of training  , i however have been without a bike in the middle of the raceing season for 4.5 weeks now , no bike was offered as a spare while mine has been sent to Trek , however i have heard that my frame is to be replaced soon , but my raceing season has been ruined totally so far  ,

there must be a serious problem with the design of the new madone frame's bb , it probably would have been better to have a metal sleave built into the frame at the bb area like the new Giant to stop the frame from wearing out. 

i don't think Trek would go to the lengths of tooling an oversised bearing race if they didn't know there was a flaw/problem with the new madone frames , i certainly would not want to have this fix of oversised bearing squashed into an out of shape frame , this sounds like a truly botched up affair .:mad2:


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## zac

joker said:


> i'm glad you never missed a day of training  , i however have been without a bike in the middle of the raceing season for 4.5 weeks now , no bike was offered as a spare while mine has been sent to Trek , however i have heard that my frame is to be replaced soon , but my raceing season has been ruined totally so far  ,
> 
> there must be a serious problem with the design of the new madone frame's bb , *it probably would have been better to have a metal sleave built into the frame at the bb area like the new Giant to stop the frame from wearing out*.
> 
> i don't think Trek would go to the lengths of tooling an oversised bearing race if they didn't know there was a flaw/problem with the new madone frames , i certainly would not want to have this fix of oversised bearing squashed into an out of shape frame , this sounds like a truly botched up affair .:mad2:


joker I agree with everything you say and empathize with your lack of a main ride for so long. It sucks and Trek needs to iron out this issue, because it really seems to be an emergent problem.

As to what I emboldened in your post with respect to the metal wear sleeve, I have given this much thought over the last year and a half (I am on my second "new" Madone in that time - very early adopter here) as I originally felt a somewhat similar system would have been preferable. It is now my opinion that a sleeve would not accomplish anything other than premature wear of the sleeve itself. 
This is solely based on my own use and abuse and tinkering in the BB area of the New Madones. 
The net molded socket is one tough piece of carbon and I would venture a guess that it is harder, stronger and more precise than any sleeve that could/would be utilized. 
In any system the weakest parts wear first and I am of the opinion that the race surfaces of the bearings are not as hard or tough as the socket. So in that regard it would be expected that the bearing will wear/fail first. Again this is just based on my own inspections and impressions.

I think a related and perhaps more relevant and problematic issue for Trek is what happens next? By that I mean when a bearing wears/fails generally Trek and their test teams and mechanics replaced the bearings. So always a nicely tuned BB/spindle/bearing system in an area of extreme torque and load. However in the real world for many riders we know this does not happen. It may be weeks, months or riding on a severely compromised bearing set before the rider is either aware of the issue through feel or does something about it. While some riders may pick up on bearing failure onset either through routine inspection or more likely "feeling it" once it gets noticeable, far too many casual riders will not notice the problem until it gets really acute and potentially starts to cause other problems. (Mindful that this is a problem that any bike manufacturer experiences.) I wonder if this has been a widespead issue for the new Madones? Bikes are not maintenance free devices and many riders do not care for their bikes either through lack of knowledge or sheer laziness. Guess it keeps the LBS in business  But it really is problematic if routine maintenance items are starting to compromise long term parts.

zac


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## gman3

new bearings at shop. Ill see if there is any play after install


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## gman3

Shop confirmed that the new bearings are not fixing the problem. Contacting Trek on Monday.


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## gman3

Trek is replacing frame with a 5.2. No complaints here


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## KBeth

Hey Folks 
I figured I would weigh in here also as I have followed this thread and have had the same experience. I have a 2008 Trek 6.5 madone (purchased in Feb 2008) that after 2500 miles ( only caught in the rain once for only 10 miles ) that had a small amount of play in the bottom bracket area and after bringing it back to my LBS who then contacted Trek and under warranty replaced the bearings and now after about 200 miles the problem seems to have been corrected and the mechanics, who I have a good relationship with, tell me the bearings should be the fix - we shall see - 

they also tell me that of course if the problem comes back they and Trek would stand behind the bike - so hope this problem does not come back and I hope that the few folks that have had this issue beyond the bearings will be only a few 

I do wonder as stated by others how many other folks have this problem and just dont know it - which leads me lastly to say - if it was not for you folks I probably would have just never looked to check for this or would not have been as educated about it when I brought my bike in to the LBS and told them everything that I have found out up to now and that they should contact Trek about the bearings and maybe... just maybe ..saved the LBS a few minutes of trying things and instead they looked it over and called Trek right away and they wasted no time in shipping out new bearings and doing the work under warranty 

Thanks All  and oh yes I really love this bike ;-)


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## zac

KBeth said:


> Hey Folks
> I figured I would weigh in here also as I have followed this thread and have had the same experience. I have a 2008 Trek 6.5 madone (purchased in Feb 2008) that after 2500 miles ( only caught in the rain once for only 10 miles ) that had a small amount of play in the bottom bracket area and after bringing it back to my LBS who then contacted Trek and under warranty replaced the bearings and now after about 200 miles the problem seems to have been corrected and the mechanics, who I have a good relationship with, tell me the bearings should be the fix - we shall see -
> 
> they also tell me that of course if the problem comes back they and Trek would stand behind the bike - so hope this problem does not come back and I hope that the few folks that have had this issue beyond the bearings will be only a few
> 
> I do wonder as stated by others how many other folks have this problem and just dont know it - which leads me lastly to say - if it was not for you folks I probably would have just never looked to check for this or would not have been as educated about it when I brought my bike in to the LBS and told them everything that I have found out up to now and that they should contact Trek about the bearings and maybe... just maybe ..saved the LBS a few minutes of trying things and instead they looked it over and called Trek right away and they wasted no time in shipping out new bearings and doing the work under warranty
> 
> Thanks All  and oh yes I really love this bike ;-)


KBeth, I am glad your issue was resolved with a simple fix. I have mentioned it a few times here and elsewhere that some of the early Madones (and I don't think the 6.x series was affected) had an issue with bad BB bearings. They were identified by blue seals on the cartridges. That being said, your issue is the not the issue that is the primary focus of this thread.

Your issue was just one of bearing failure. I had this likewise happen, but since I had spare sets of bearings I just replaced the bad set. With the bearings being as exposed as they are, it is important to keep them dry and inspect and clean them out. This should be part of your routine maintenance plan. The outer seals are really not going to keep any moisture out and once in, it will not drain easily. But as it is really easy to get at the actual bearings, any wet use should be grounds spending a couple of minutes to pull out the bearing cartridges and at least inspect them and perhaps even repack them. As I mentioned, I likewise went through a NDS bearing after a couple of months of riding. I ride through the winter here in New England and although I keep my bike fairly well maintained, I guess the salt beat me to it that first time. Now I am pulling those bearings on a more regular basis.

The issue of this thread is that the cartridge bearings are not fitting properly in the sockets of the frame. It is either due to frame damage to the socket itself or that the socket was mis-sized from the beginning. 

Another thing I suspect, and I hate to say it, is that LBS's may be having difficulty seating the bearings properly. The slightest spec of sand or having the inner dust sleeves even slightly off its recess will prevent the bearings from fully seating.

To home mechanics I recommend carefully and fully cleaning the socket area, then seating the bearings initially without the dust sleeves (especially the NDS bearing) just so you know how the bearing is to seat fully and properly. Also when ready to to the full install, use a _very light_ coating of water proof grease (Phil Wood). I emphasize "very light" coating as too thick a coating will not fully squeeze out (the fit is that tight) and will interfere with seating the bearings properly and fully.

I have also heard instances of mechanics using lock-tight in the sockets. THIS IS A BIG NO-NO. The lock-tight will buildup and and settle in places it doesn't belong and thus prevent the bearing from seating properly.

I am wondering if there is a correlation between cranksets and frame issues. I would expect that every crankset/spindle combination used would be precise and stiff enough, but perhaps not?

zac


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## jsedlak

Interesting thread... I recently had the BB bearing replaced on my 5.2 because it was making a clicking noise. I couldn't really feel any play per se but whenever I got out of the saddle to pedal harder it would just click every turn. Mechanic said it was warn from grime which is believable since I have been out in the rain a few times and don't know how to service that area yet.

Probably unrelated to the problem ITT but figured I'd mention it.


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## gman3

What was strange with mine was that the LBS says when they replaced the bearings the first time they were tight, no play, and something happened in between then. Which would have to mean that the bottom bracket itself wears to the point the bearings have play. You would think the bearing themselves would wear first. Im anticipating going down this road again in a year or 2, but time will tell. As long as Trek warranties IM fine, I really love the bike


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## yzfrr11

*Crankset correlation?*

This is a very interesting discussion. Has anyone here experienced this bottom bracket issue with a Shimano crank? I have been concerned about Trek's current bottom bracket design ever since I first heard of the integrated bearing design. In particular, I don't think it is a good design for use with Campy or SRAM style cranks, where the bearings are axially loaded with a spring washer. However, I think Trek's bottom bracket design may work satisfactorily with the Shimano style crank, where the axial load on the bearings are adjustable by NDS compression screw.

So, has anyone experienced this bottome bracket issue with a Shimano crank?


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## zac

yzfrr11 said:


> This is a very interesting discussion. Has anyone here experienced this bottom bracket issue with a Shimano crank? I have been concerned about Trek's current bottom bracket design ever since I first heard of the integrated bearing design. In particular, I don't think it is a good design for use with Campy or SRAM style cranks, where the bearings are axially loaded with a spring washer. However, I think Trek's bottom bracket design may work satisfactorily with the Shimano style crank, where the axial load on the bearings are adjustable by NDS compression screw.
> 
> So, has anyone experienced this bottome bracket issue with a Shimano crank?


Exactly what I was wondering too. 

Shimano DA 7800 standard double crank: no issues with frame. A few bearing replacements due to NDS bearing failure and or wear.


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## yzfrr11

Here is an explanation of how the current Madone bottom bracket may not be perfectly compatible with the Campy crank design:

I have a theory that I want to share about the Campagnolo Ultra Torque crankset and bottom bracket system. I'm going to systematically lay out, in detail, what I believe is a design flaw, or at least, a short coming that has lead to and can cause issues. I've spent a considerable amount of time thinking this out and I have even consulted with a mechanical engineer... WARNING: This is going to be a long post and has the potential to be REALLY boring if you have zero interest in this topic. 
But first, a brief overview of the design. Here's a CAD drawing. 

Here's my extremely simplified description of the Ultra Torque design: 
This system is designed around the Hirth joint, which joins the two semi-axles. These semi-axles are held together by a special fixing bolt. The bearings are pressed onto both of the semi-axles. Installation includes inserting the drive side of the crank into the driveside cup. It is then secured by a retaining spring. The non-drive side is then installed into the non-drive side cup with a wave washer placed on the semi-axle between cup and the bearing. The cups are supposed to be installed free of grease, with Loctite 222, hand tight. Install the fixing bolt, torque to spec, wait 24hrs (for the Loctite to cure), then off you go... Ok.. Here's the rub. 

Well... not so fast. First some history.

When Campy first introduced this new system and I had the chance to install one, right off the bat, a red flag went up. What I didn't like or didn't understand is why would they design a system like that has a fixed distance between the bearings that doesn't much allow for the discrepancies in bottom bracket shell width??? I thought that I must OBVIOUSLY be missing something... But like a good little bike mechanic, I followed the installation instructions provided and completed the installation as specified ( I have to admit that I really struggled with myself when it came to the installation of the cups...). More on this later... 
Fast forward sixish months and approximately 3k miles later I get a text... 

John, I have a creak/knock and I think that the bb might be loose can you take a look?

It didn't take long for me to find the cause of the noise... actually in his driveway. And after a few more questions, I was heading back to my shop. What I found was to say the least, suprising. 

Here's the rub.

Here's what I found. When compressing or squeezing the non-drive side crankarm laterally towards the drive side, I was able to make the whole crankset move laterally to the drive side of the bike. I could see the drive side of the crankset move out or away from the bottom bracket!! I was able to do this by squeezing the non-drive side crankarm towards the down tube or seat tube, like this (the poorly drawn red arrow vaguely shows where I was able to see the lateral movement)... 

And here's a video: (Look at the area near the "center" of the crankarm and the bottom bracket cup..) 

This generally is not good. This specifically, really is piss poor (not a technical term, but works well with this application). 
I then repeated the same procedure on the drive-side, like this... 

No movement. Rock solid. 
I immediately had a really good theory about what was happening... 
Ok, here goes... My theory is that because of the use of the Hirth joint, which when joined, has a fixed distance between the bearings. This doesn't allow for any discrepancy in the bottom bracket shell width. In fact, I believe that Campagnolo built in some "wiggle room" (another technical term...) to account for a certain range of shell widths. It states in the installation instructions that: 
The Campagnolo Ultra Torque crankset is compatible with bottom bracket shells having the following widths:


English: 67.2mm - 68.8mm
Italian: 69.2mm - 70.8mm

...that's a 1.6mm range or +/- .8mm each side of standard widths. 
Click here for official Campagnolo installation instructions 


First, a few of my observations...

After 1-3k miles, the chances for lateral or horizontal movement increases due to the minute increases in the ID of the cups and/or the OD of the cartridge bearings. This lateral or horizontal movement towards the drive side in related to the compression of the wave or spring washer and the inability of the retaining spring to stop the movement of the system (see video 2). This occurance is probably more evident in composite frames because of the amplification of the sound or the resonating qualities of these frames. This is not to say that it’s not possible with frames made of other materials. I have just observed this issue with multiple composite frames. I found that this happens with both English and Italian bottom bracket shell designs. Two of the frames, one with English and the other Italian bottom brackets, had bottom bracket widths of 68.1 and 70.03 respectively. These measurements are pretty darn close to industry standards. So I believe that this can happen on bikes with shell widths well within normal. 
Please allow me to go off on another related tangent... 

Hello? Campy tech support...

Before I dove head-first into this little puzzle, I called and spoke with a kind gentleman at a large US distributor of Campagnolo the ask if he has heard of this issue. To make a long story short, he verified if I installed everything as per the instructions including the wave washer. I said that I did. He then recommended that I might add another wave washer because it is “wafer thin”…I asked if “wafer thin” is a technical term… I knew that I wasn't going to get very far info-wise, so I ordered a few to have on hand and when on my way… 
While you're here, check out video 2: 


The meat and potatoes

After taking accurate measurements of everything related to the bottom bracket and crankset, the only solution to this problem was to add spacers to the equation to take up the space that was allowing the movement. This had to be done to the point that there wouldn’t be any binding or side-loading of the bearings. started systematically adding spacers, starting with a .36mm spacer between the non-drive side cup and shell… 

I assembled, checked for play…. Still there. 
Added a .30mm spacer inside the cup between the wave washer and inside face of the non-drive side cup, reassembled, checked for play… better, but still there. Now, I thought that I was getting somewhere… 
I added yet another .30mm spacer in the same location as the prior one. I then assembled again, checked for play, this time no play, or pretty darn close to no play. I was satisfied, so at this point, I disassembled it again, but this time I applied the Loctite 222 to the NDS cup threads and lubricated all of the spacers that I added. 


Now, let's look at the numbers...

Bottom bracket shell width: 68.1mm
Spacer placed between NDS cup and frame: .36mm
First spacer added: .30mm
Second spacer added: .30mm
Total amount of spacers added: .96mm

This essentially adds up to the effect shell + cups width of 69.06mm. So theoretically, if you have a bike with a bottom bracket shell width of 69.6mm and you install an English Ultra Torque crankset/bottom bracket system, you won’t have the problem of lateral crankset movement. 
So, the day after I deliver the bike back, I receive this text… 

Perfect… 40 miles so far and no noise.

I thought, great! Problem solved… Not that I was happy about the need for the fix, but was still relieved. But wait! Not so fast… About two weeks later… another text… 

My bottom bracket click has returned…

Damn… I thought, but I wasn't totally surprised. After a brief phone call, I am told that it’s not the knocking now, but a click. Back to the drawing board, but I knew that I was getting somewhere… 

Round Two...

After the first fix, the knocking noise went away, but a clicking/ticking developed after < 1k miles. This mainly occured at the 6 o’clock non-drive side crankarm position when riding the bike. I was also able to produce the sound while bike was on stand. I think that this happened at the 6 o’clock position while on the bike because that is the lowest point of the power curve and most of the input force was removed from the system allowing the slight movement of the crankset to produce the click…. After closely looking at everything closely for anything that might cause a click, the only thing that was somewhat concerning was that some of the silver coating on the wave washer was rubbed off (See photo below). 

I added a third .30mm spacer…Too tight. To cut to the chase, I removed a .30mm spacer and added a .34mm spacer in its place. This added .04mm to the total amount of spacers. And if my math is good, that’s a sum of 1mm. I assembled…again, and took it for a test ride…. No click. Tried to replicate the noise in the stand. Nadda. Good news. 

My opinions...

1. I can’t accept this as being normal if this is the only crankset/bottom bracket design on the market that has this lateral movement... 2. I believe that the constraints of the Hirth joint and the inability to account for the normal discrepancies of bottom bracket shell widths lead to the use of both the wave washer and the retaining spring. 3. If all frames with English bottom bracket shells had exactly 68mm shell widths and if all frames with Italian bottom bracket shell widths had exactly 70mm widths and Campagnolo produced the Ultra Torque systems for those respective widths WITHOUT needing to use the wave washer and the retaining spring, there wouldn’t be this issue. 4. I think, albeit kinda far fetched, that one of the reasons why the instruction say to only tighten the cups hand tight and to use Loctite 222 is to not decrease the overall width of the shell and cups any more than it already is… We’re not talking much but as you will see, we’re not talking much anyway. 

In Conclusion:

I believe that Campagnolo pigeonholed itself into this problem by incorporating the Hirth joint into the design of their Ultra Torque system. The inability of the Hirth joint to adjust for variances in shell width dimensions forced the use of the wave washer and the retention spring. Because of this limitation, they somehow agreed upon a spindle length (actually the distance between the bearings…) that was greater than the standard widths and added the washer and retention spring to make up for the range of shell widths. This is obvious because I observed this situation on a bike with a 68.1mm English bottom bracket shell as well as a bike with an Italian shell measuring 70.3mm. All of this being said, is this just me or am I missing something? I welcome any and all comments and questions. And please, correct me if I'm way off base. Thanks for checking in. -John 
Posted at 09:46 PM in Client Bikes | Permalink | Comments (30) | TrackBack (0) 

Technorati Tags: bike, Bottom bracket, Campagnolo Ultra Torque, campy, carbon, Chorus, cycling, Hirth joint, John Satory, Record, Rogue Mechanic, RogueMechanic


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## zac

Argh! Damn you!  I'm on my iPhone and watching Martins getting reeled in. Going to have to read this one later.  

zac


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## yzfrr11

yzfrr11 said:


> This is a very interesting discussion. Has anyone here experienced this bottom bracket issue with a Shimano crank? I have been concerned about Trek's current bottom bracket design ever since I first heard of the integrated bearing design. In particular, I don't think it is a good design for use with Campy or SRAM style cranks, where the bearings are axially loaded with a spring washer. However, I think Trek's bottom bracket design may work satisfactorily with the Shimano style crank, where the axial load on the bearings are adjustable by NDS compression screw.
> 
> So, has anyone experienced this bottome bracket issue with a Shimano crank?



Ahh Haa! Leonard Zinn agrees. Check this out:

http://www.velonews.com/article/85783/how-to-fit-a-sram-red-crank-into-a-trek-madone-frame


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## JohnnyKat

*Could somebody simplify things a bit.*

Are the 09 models retooled so they don't have a tendency to have this problem occur?

If you were having a problem, could you please list the crank manufacturer/model and what model year of frame you own.

My take is that if some of the 08 models have had problems, then all of them are faulty to a degree. The only difference is that some of the problems are kinetic (happening) and some are potential (likely to happen).

I found a great deal on a 2008 5.2 madone pro with ultegra sl. I fear it will not work properly. If I purchase a 2009 frame with ultegra sl should that put my fears to rest?


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## nor_cal_rider

Hmm...I'm going on my second set of BB bearings in 9300 miles of DRY riding - no rain events other than a light drizzle once or twice. My Madone is also an early '08 frame (purchased in Oct 07), and is scheduled for a trip to the LBS on Wednesday to address the BB bearings, a cracked rear rim, and any other wear/tear/maint issues in prep for a series of century rides. I'm hoping there is nothing wrong, but if anything is found, I'll probably put the bike up for sale. I'm already looking at either a Moots or Seven Ti frame for either a 2nd bike or a replacement.


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## zac

yzfrr11 said:


> Ahh Haa! Leonard Zinn agrees. Check this out:
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/article/85783/how-to-fit-a-sram-red-crank-into-a-trek-madone-frame


Interesting. But from what I gather from that article, Trek has been using some oversized inner race diameter bearings, that require a bushing to snug on the spindle.

I wonder if this is the cause that many are experiencing? Either through faulty installation or failure of the bushing.

zac

Again

08 Madone 6.5Pro (early issue), DuraAce 7800 crankset, Endurø steel bearings (black seals): no issues, other than routine wear on bearings.
09 Madone 6.5Pro (early issue), DuraAce 7800 crankset, Endurø steel bearings (black seals): no issues, other than routine wear on bearings.


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## joker

yzfrr11 said:


> This is a very interesting discussion. Has anyone here experienced this bottom bracket issue with a Shimano crank? I have been concerned about Trek's current bottom bracket design ever since I first heard of the integrated bearing design. In particular, I don't think it is a good design for use with Campy or SRAM style cranks, where the bearings are axially loaded with a spring washer. However, I think Trek's bottom bracket design may work satisfactorily with the Shimano style crank, where the axial load on the bearings are adjustable by NDS compression screw.
> 
> So, has anyone experienced this bottome bracket issue with a Shimano crank?


Hi folks i'm still waiting on my frame 6weeks on , I had a shimano Dura ace crank 7800 on my trek when the frame wore down . hope this helps the discussion .


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## joker

i doubt it , i've been waiting 6 weeks in the middle of the raceing season without a bike for my replacement frame and it still ain't ready for me , if i had the choice again i would buy somthing else , like a Cervelo or Giant , I did enjoy riding my Trek madone when it worked though but 8 months out of a brand new frame is not something to put my fears at rest when i do eventually get my new bike back .


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## gman3

Joker

Has your LBS been in touch with Trek? What is the delay. I supposedly should have my new frame this week. It was ordered last Monday. Im Getting a little nervous now


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## joker

Hi yes, my bike sat in the lbs for around 2 weeks before I phoned Trek directly myself , my lbs were wanting a receipt but i'd already gave them the receipt 8 months earlier when my first frame was swapped ,Trek said there was not a problemb as long as the lbs knew that i'd bought the bike there, so the bike was sent off and a new frame has been sent out by Trek , it's in the lbs but it's been sent without a seat mast and without bearings so my lbs can't build it until they get these items,i've been on the phone to them every day for over a week now asking if the parts are there yet, god knows what postal service is being used sa it seems extremely slow , i've been into the shop and seen my new frame and it's beautiful its a 2009 madone , i just hope it lasts me when i start to train again .


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## joker

Hallelouyah , I got my Trek back today and it's beautiful , just hope it's gona last:smile5:


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## gman3

Joker

Good news. Did you check the bottom bracket for any sign of play? Best of luck with it. I cant wait to get mine.


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## joker

It's brand spanking new , no play


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## slideeslide

I had an early 5.2 with Shimano Ultegra SL cranks. Frame got warrantied for the same play issue with an 09.


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## the sky above tar below

Just curious, I don't get a chance to ride except during the summer, so I don't have as many miles on my 08 5.2 as most of you. Is this something I should be concerned about regarding my bike?

Is there a frame replacement policy that Trek has begun regarding this issue?


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## nor_cal_rider

the sky above said:


> Just curious, I don't get a chance to ride except during the summer, so I don't have as many miles on my 08 5.2 as most of you. Is this something I should be concerned about regarding my bike?
> 
> Is there a frame replacement policy that Trek has begun regarding this issue?


Thus far Trek is replacing the frames that show damage and sent back via a dealer. I know my LBS is really pushing the idea of a different set of bearings to fix any play that has developed in my BB (again). I don't think this is a problem with ALL Madones. It appears to be more of a problem with assembly and getting everything correctly seated and loaded/torqued. Maybe I'm wrong and some have defective frames right from the mold, but it seems strange more people are not having similar problems. I'd be more concerned with your rims, if you have alloy Bontragers...the RL's and to a lesser extent RXL's are exhibiting a tendency to crack.


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## JohnnyKat

*oh boy, bout to pull trigger, hope i don't regret it*

talked to local bs, mechanic said the bottom brackets are prone to failure if every procedure is not followed to a T. he said they're much trickier than most bikes, but if done correctly they are one of the best and in his shop he has seen no problems. he was aware that if one puts on campy or sram the process is different. i suspect people are tinkering with an area of a bike they know nothing about, and or assume it is a simple setup like previous frames.

he was probably blowing large quantities of smoke out his nether region. however, if anything goes wrong i plan to become his most annoying customer.


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## gman3

The history on mine is that the the bearings failed at about 6 or 7 k miles and I mean completely. Trek sent new bearings (Red Shield Plan) and LBS installed. 3 k later I was on a ride, heard a bit of noise that I thought was a wheel hub. Went to check crank and found some play (I knew nothing about this at the time). SO I guess its debatable about the tech causing the failure. Anyway, 2 weeks into this and no one including Trek knows where my new frame is. Apparently they are tracked different if pulled off the Project 1 Line. Even my LBS had a problem understanding that line. I should know more Monday


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## JohnnyKat

*great...now you tell me*

i already bought. oh well, i got a pretty good deal. when or if i have problems i'll demand a new frame.

the fact that trek knows this frame is prone to failure and seems to be replacing most is a comfort to me. it might be a good thing i got this bike. whenever the bb goes bad, i'll get a new bike.

how much was the red shield plan? is it necessary to have extra coverage so trek will replace the frame? if so, i think i'm going to prepare for a fight.


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## gman3

Trek warranties frame for life to purchaser. Don t need Red Sheils. I paid $145 for 3 year Redheild. So far betwen replacement chains and cassette its paid for itself with another year and a half to go


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## JohnnyKat

*Trek is pretty smart in my book.*

They stand behind their products. If i have a problem, they'll most likely fix it. I'll return to them in the future and recommend them to others. However, most companies think only of the short term and want their customers to eat any problem that may occur. Those companies lose two-fold. They never have return customers and their word of mouth destroys future 1st time buyers.


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## fabcpa

*Trek replaced my 08*

Trek replaced my 08 with an 09 frame. I am still having problems with the bottom braket clicking. Seems like I live at the lbs. I did try swapping out the crank (shimano 7800 series - dura ace) for a ultegra crank and the clicking stopped, so I was thinking it was the crank and was about to send it back to Shimano before reading these posts and now I don't know what to do. I sent the threads to my lbs to see what their opnion is. This issue has been going on for over a year now and when I finally emailed the inside rep at Trek he sent me out a nice Trek shirt ($200 value) and some revised bearing. The sleeves that they put on the bearings (kind of make shift) bent when we tried to install so they replaced the frame, Trek sent the frame without asking for mine and I just rode my old one until the new frame showed up. The trek rep in your area should be able to drop by the lbs to make sure that the old frame is destroyed...that is all they care about. I am getting to the point if I can't correct the issue of selling the bike and getting something else! Trek has been good to work with though. I just don't have the time to keep taking the bike in to fix this problem.


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## zac

fabcpa said:


> Trek replaced my 08 with an 09 frame. I am still having problems with the bottom braket clicking. Seems like I live at the lbs. I did try swapping out the crank (shimano 7800 series - dura ace) for a ultegra crank and the clicking stopped, so I was thinking it was the crank and was about to send it back to Shimano before reading these posts and now I don't know what to do. I sent the threads to my lbs to see what their opnion is. This issue has been going on for over a year now and when I finally emailed the inside rep at Trek he sent me out a nice Trek shirt ($200 value) and some revised bearing. The sleeves that they put on the bearings (kind of make shift) bent when we tried to install so they replaced the frame, Trek sent the frame without asking for mine and I just rode my old one until the new frame showed up. The trek rep in your area should be able to drop by the lbs to make sure that the old frame is destroyed...that is all they care about. I am getting to the point if I can't correct the issue of selling the bike and getting something else! Trek has been good to work with though. I just don't have the time to keep taking the bike in to fix this problem.


Interesting indeed! Other than the Zinn article this is the second time I have heard about the bushing/sleeves being used. 

The Ultegra and the DuraAce spindles are the exact same size and the cranksets are interchangeable with the same bearings. To me at least, there is no valid reason why Trek should be using bushings to fit the bearings.

I am starting to think that this is not a frame issue, but a bearing set issue. The inner race diameter on the bearings for a Shimano crank, should be the exact size of the spindle. Both the DS and NDS are identical and interchangeable. Indeed on the multiple sets of bearings I have worked with on both DA 7800 and 7900 the fit was snug and precise with no play whatsoever. An inner bushing should not be needed! If so, then the wrong bearing set has been issued. As a matter of fact, I just received two new sets of bearings, and I am going to test them now for fit!

Likewise, the outer diameter of the bearing should fit the frame socket so precisely that you almost need a puller to press it in and take it out. If it just pops out, then something is not right. 

I have worked on two 6.5s and multiple sets of bearings and in every instance the feel an fit was *very* snug and precise.

Really would like to know where these rogue (my words) missized bearings are coming from and why they are being used. I would think that Trek's quality control would be all over this. Especially with the attendant labor associated with making a Madone frame they cannot be happy with these failures. (Assuming of course this is the case).


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## gman3

Saw my new frame today. Silver and Blue for a 5.5. Beautifull looking. Should be picking it up in a week.


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## mtberic

...any reported problems with the '09 models?...


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## gormleyflyer2002

my 09 had an oversized BB socket...........my 08 BB was fine, replaced due to seat tube crack.


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## gman3

Got my new frame yesterday. Pro model. Seems vary nice and took it for an easy shake down ride this morning. A couple of concerns 1) LBS saya no improvement to bottom bracket 2) Trek told LBS to pass component swap over costs on to me. They didnt but I dont think thats cool at all.


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## joker

that is way uncool , it's not your fault the bike had to be stripped down and rebuilt .


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## the sky above tar below

post deleted by original poster


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## gman3

joker said:


> that is way uncool , it's not your fault the bike had to be stripped down and rebuilt .


Well LBS was good and did not charge. Cant complain though they really are a high volume dealer and I dont think much into the service part. 2 days of easy riding and i am a little concerned. There is a creak and I removed chain and isolated to bottom bracket. Im gonna give it another day, maybe Im too paranoid. There is no play by hand but every time the right pedal hits bottom there is a creak that seems to resonate up the frame. Maybe its just me. Going to ride tomorrow and Thursday, off from work Friday and maybe go see what LBS thinks.


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## gman3

I finally brought the new frame back. LBS verified that the pop is coming from bottom bracket. Im being told the Trek Tech stopped in the shop today and told them to wrap teflon around the bearings. Im not too skeptical, I think I have another bad frame right out of the box. Ill update as it goes


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## gman3

Got bike back and had first ride today. No issues. Bike mechanic said he adjusted bearings. So far so good


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## joker

here we go again , I got my 3rd new madone frame on 16 june , and guess what , bottom bracket play on the non drive side , bike is in shop and they are going to try new bearings but i have that sinking feeling that the frame is goosed again .


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## zac

joker said:



> here we go again , I got my 3rd new madone frame on 16 june , and guess what , bottom bracket play on the non drive side , bike is in shop and they are going to try new bearings but i have that sinking feeling that the frame is goosed again .


Hearing stories like this, makes me absolutely convinced that some shops are not following the correct procedures for installing the bearings.

joker, as a suggestion ask your shop to not install the dust sleeves. Believe it or not if those are improperly set, they will prevent the bearing from seating properly. This is not even an issue that will necessarily become immediately noticeable.

Also, It is my opinion that the 2008+ Madones require more than casual BB maintenance. In this modern era we are so used to cartridge bearings and disposable parts, that we forget that these machines are not maintenance free. In the old days my cranks were off and my BBs (spindle, balls and cups) were getting a cleaning and relube at least once a month. I still do the same with my Madone. The procedure is just as simple, but it must be done. 

For higher milage riders: 
•every 300 miles/ once a week/once a ride: check cranks for play.
•every 1000-3000 miles/ once a month/quarter: depending on riding conditions
(wet, and/or frequent washing), completely break down, clean and relube sockets and bearing races. 
•Once a year: break down, clean and relube sockets, replace bearings as needed.

For lower milage riders:
•every month, at least, check cranks for play. Do this by firmly grasping the seat tube with one hand and with the other hand on the NDS crank arm at the 2 or 11 o'clock position, try to rock it in toward the frame and out from the frame several times. You should not feel any tick or play whatsoever. If you do, it is time to have your BB serviced. You should also check the DS crank in like manner. Any play can be for several reasons. It could just be a that a crank adjustment is in order, or it could be that the bearings need to be looked at and either reseated or replaced.
•Once a year: break down, clean and relube sockets, replace bearings as needed.

zac


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## joker

Hi , got the bike back with new bearings in one side and it seems to be ok but iv'e not had a ride on it yet , fingers crossed hope it was just the bearings .


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## gormleyflyer2002

zac......what is the correct install procedure for 08+ with shimano cranks. ? I'm curious, its a pretty bsic design, 

your dust sleeve's comment ...... explain....? 

what does relubing the sockets/brg races accomplish ?

i'm in the same position as joker, the bearing socket just seems to get bigger over time.


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## zac

joker said:


> Hi , got the bike back with new bearings in one side and it seems to be ok but iv'e not had a ride on it yet , fingers crossed hope it was just the bearings .


joker, I go through ~3 NDS bearings for every 1 DS bearing.

zac


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## zac

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> zac......what is the correct install procedure for 08+ with shimano cranks. ? I'm curious, its a pretty bsic design,
> 
> your dust sleeve's comment ...... explain....?
> 
> what does relubing the sockets/brg races accomplish ?
> 
> i'm in the same position as joker, the bearing socket just seems to get bigger over time.


gormleyflyer, The correct install procedure is somewhere around here, I also included pictures. If you search under my name in this forum sections back over the last 2 years you will find it.

As to the dust sleeves. The sleeves have a flange that fits into a recessed sub-socket of the main bearing socket on the BB shell of the frame. It is somewhat difficult to get these flanges to seat all the way in, as they are that tight and precise a fit. Trek actually indicates that the sleeves are side specific. I have not actually measured the diameter and thicknesses of the flanges, as I dont use them, but if in fact they are a different size, then installing them on the wrong sides would absolutely prevent the bearings from seating properly.

That being said, it is best to dry fit the bearings without the sleeves to make a visual observation as to how they should look in the BB shell. Pull them, then install the sleeves. When seated properly the sleeves will actually click into place. It helps to make a visual inspection to make sure that the outer flange surface is flush or even slightly recessed back from the inner surface of the receiving bearing socket in the BB shell.

Grease: even though cartridge bearings themselves are internally greased and sealed you should still grease the socket surfaces, the sleeves and the bearing races and faces. The reason is two fold: 1) the grease itself will act as a waterproofing seal in areas were water tends to collect; and 2) any time you have moving parts tight against each other, or parts that are eventually intended to move (even if only for assembly or disassembly) then you should grease them.

I use a very light coat in this area, I would even grease where the two sleeves slide into each other. The reason for the light coat of grease is that simply because these parts fit together so precisely, that even the grease doesn't have room to squeeze out and too much could prevent the bearing from fully seating.

There is one additional thing that I do with Shimano cranks that is not in the Shimano service manual. I have discussed this with other mechanics and some of them do the same thing. After I install the cranks to spec, I will ride the bike for a couple of miles, then return home, loosen the NDS crank bolts on the spindle, THEN RETORQUE THE CRANK ARM FIXING CAP BOLT. Note, do not remove the NDS crank from the spindle, just slightly loosen the cap bolt and retorque it. The combination of riding the bike and resetting this cap bolt seems to get the bearings seated in their final position, sets the grease evenly and pulls in the two sides of the cranks on the spindle. Finally retorque the crank arm bolts evenly and to spec. I have found that when I fail to do this, sometimes the cranks will work themselves slightly loose over a couple of weeks or so. However when I do this, I have yet to have an issue.

HTH
zac


----------



## gormleyflyer2002

thanks Zac......found it...http://gallery.me.com/maczac#100053. 

I have been following this info and am certain my shop has been doing this procedure, they are a careful and stellar buncha wrenches who I know work pretty well with the Trek factory reps.

i've had a few 5.5 2008> frames that have gone oversized in the NDS bearing bore.....i wonder what Trek will do to fix this long term, can't imagine they want to give me new frames every 6 months. I'm not wraping my bearing in teflon tape, not on a 5k bike. I hate to sound like I'm *****ing, I am I suppose but really can't complain as they warrantied and looked after me till now. I love the bike, perfect fit and fast as hell, I just wish it would hold up better for us bigger guys. I don't think <58cm or the low miler guys are having this problem.


----------



## joker

Hi folks , why do the bearings wear quicker on the non drive side ? Will the new 2010 6 series madone have the same problem or has it been fixed ?

my frame is a 2009 madone 5.5 54cm .


----------



## joker

nobody knows then ?


----------



## nor_cal_rider

joker said:


> Hi folks , why do the bearings wear quicker on the non drive side ? Will the new 2010 6 series madone have the same problem or has it been fixed ?
> 
> my frame is a 2009 madone 5.5 54cm .


I seem to recall seeing something in the 2010 brochure indicating the BB was revised with the 2010 6 series. Something about stiffer and less play, IIRC...

I'll let ya know when mine shows up in a few weeks :smilewinkgrin:


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## jlaramie

So far so good for my 2010 replacement frame for my 2009 cracked @ seat mast, 2009 non fitting nds bb, 2008 cracked @ bb. Must admit this appears to be their best effort yet Hope the Lance effect has them stepping up their game. Good luck to all in 2010. JL


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## gman3

So far no issues with mine but my mileage is down. I do anticipate a problem will occurr and will probably go to a different bike if it does.


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## occyclist

*Round 2 - NDS Socket Play*

Last year a couple of riders in my group have had their 08s replaced due to NDS bearing play. 10 months later the problem has surfaced again with the 09 replacement bikes. Both bikes started service with tight bearing sockets, now the NDS socket has developed play just like the 08s. I have faith Trek will make good, but hopefully they will expedite the replacement process and keep my teammates riding. Last time it took 2 months due to LBS and Trek figuring out the solution. We'll see if thing have improved


----------



## Ray_from_SA

Really losing faith in my 5.2, seem to be continually working on the BB due to play, even after following Zac's advise. Bearings seem to seat well and everything tightens up without play, but can't seem to keet it that way. I have no problem tightening a BB once after service and ride, but am tightening things up after every ride now!

I am at the point that even if Trek would replace the frame due to 'defect' I am not sure I want it.


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## gormleyflyer2002

my NDS is loose again, frame 3.....or is it 4. I love this bike but really wish they would resolve this.......how many frames do you think they will replace before someone actually fixes it ?


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## joker

I don't think it can be fixed ,on paper it looks ok but in the real world it dosent stand up , iv'e been looking at the new 6 series madone and the bb looks the same ,i do hope they have fixed it though cos i would like to get myself the new 6 sereis it looks great.


----------



## jlaramie

Question for Zac or other mechanically inclined folks. Your recommended service has me pulling out bearings monthly, any chance this will contribute to sockets becoming loose? Mine take a bit of work to install due to tight fit, any recommened install advice other than carefully?. thanks! JL


----------



## occyclist

*New Bearing*

LBS is telling me a new bearing is being sent to fix these issues. Anyone hear of such a bearing?


----------



## zac

jlaramie said:


> Question for Zac or other mechanically inclined folks. Your recommended service has me pulling out bearings monthly, any chance this will contribute to sockets becoming loose? Mine take a bit of work to install due to tight fit, any recommened install advice other than carefully?. thanks! JL


No, you have it. Just be careful in removal and installation. 

As with any very precise piece of equipment, these bikes do require attention.

My original concerns with the integrated BB back in 2007 was this very issue. It seems that some are having serious issues and Trek does need to address this. So far they are replacing frames, BUT that is a major inconvenience given the time it takes.

Hoping this gets "fixed" and soon.

zac


----------



## the sky above tar below

Man, this is depressing.


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## gman3

Well looks like my play is back NDS. Ill get checked at shop Sunday and report back. I just read about the Motebecane Ti in bicycle magazine, sounds very tempting right now


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## checkerpig

Same problem here with my '08 5.5 Trek. Three rides after new bearing were installed there was again play on NDS. Two weeks later, I'am still waiting for Treks feedback..
CP.


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## gormleyflyer2002

eh pig........let us know will yah ?


----------



## big cat

Dear friends, has somebody experienced the same bb creaking on Giant frame? Is a bearing or cup problem? Could somebody help me on the matter?


----------



## checkerpig

checkerpig said:


> Same problem here with my '08 5.5 Trek. Three rides after new bearing were installed there was again play on NDS. Two weeks later, I'am still waiting for Treks feedback..
> CP.


Three weeks later, still no feedback from Trek according to LBS. 
CP.


----------



## checkerpig

Near 2 months later, LBS doesn't know if he got the bearings from Trek, he's checking..


----------



## gormleyflyer2002

LBS installed new NDS bearing on mine....., i didn't really get a chance to look at it closely, looks like the bearing had a little more flange in the innner race, that might help a bit with thrust loading. Also......the bearing OD looked to have a very thin shim shrunk fit onto the outer race. it takes up the play for sure, pretty cheesy fix for a 5K bike IMHO but I'll give it a try and see what happens. So far so good.


----------



## occyclist

*Heading to Waterloo*

Teammates sent 2 Madones back to Trek for evaluation. "New" bearing didn't seem to work. Not sure I agree with the "fix" approach as the new bearing is no longer standard. I have faith Trek will work it out. They are a good company, I just wish they acknowledged the problem and made it easier for claims to be verified and processed without have to keep riders off the bike.


----------



## checkerpig

My bike was send back to Trek - again -. The oversized bearings didn't work:still play. My LBS is not happy too, he claims he paying for the ensured transport. I am nearly 3 months without my Trek now. I am lucky I still got my Merckx as back-up. I'll give my LBS a call today.... CP.


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## gormleyflyer2002

checkerpig said:


> My bike was send back to Trek - again -. The oversized bearings didn't work:still play. My LBS is not happy too, he claims he paying for the ensured transport. I am nearly 3 months without my Trek now. I am lucky I still got my Merckx as back-up. I'll give my LBS a call today.... CP.


why would they send it back ? this isn't some odd or weird......they have probably seen thousands of bikes with thise problem.......time for you to step into the bike shop owner a bit. "Lifetime Warranty"......time to back it up.

I'm curious....what size is your frame ?

ps, my oversize bearing was working for a while.......till the frame showed cracks again in the ND chain stay and on the BB area down under the rear wheel cut out......!!! erg.


----------



## checkerpig

LBS could not install the oversized bearing they received from Trek properly. So they sent the bike back. Trek did the job, bike came back, still the same problem. Bike was returned to Trek. Frame is a september 2008 Madone 5.5 size 54.Which was a replacement for another frame which broke...


----------



## occyclist

*Update*

Two frames sent to Trek for evaluation. 1 Frame is found to have a crack in the seat tube and will be covered. 2nd frame is sent back with "New Bearing" installed. I guess Trek felt they could install the "New Bearing" better then the LBS. We'll see if it works. To Trek's credit, it only took 10 days to conduct the eval and send the frames back


----------



## imaca

Zac, on the one hand you are recommending constant maintenance, on the other you are saying how much care is needed to do this!
Personally I am inclined to leave well enough alone.
My mountain bike has over 50,000k on original bearings with 0 maintenance. I can't imagine that greasing the outside of sealed bearing cartridges is going to do anything other than risk contaimination and damage to the seats.
I don't see this as a maintenance issue, but rather a design issue or as you say poor initial installation.


----------



## zac

imaca said:


> Zac, on the one hand you are recommending constant maintenance, on the other you are saying how much care is needed to do this!
> Personally I am inclined to leave well enough alone.
> My mountain bike has over 50,000k on original bearings with 0 maintenance. I can't imagine that greasing the outside of sealed bearing cartridges is going to do anything other than risk contaimination and damage to the seats.
> I don't see this as a maintenance issue, but rather a design issue or as you say poor initial installation.


I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, I have been doing bike maintenance for 30+ years. (I would imagine that you have been too, given the amount of miles you have on a MTB) To me, pulling the bearings of the BB was pretty much a monthly maintenance item (or after a wet ride) whether it was loose balls, or "sealed." Grit gets in there, and I am just too fussy about it. It really doesn't take all that long to do.

As to the amount of care: I don't mean to scare anyone, but the process at first glance is not as simple as it seems. Removal and reseating the bearing does take some care, but once you have done it, and once you know what to look for, then it really is a no brainer. My fear and suspicion is that damage to the BB shell can occur during the first removal of the bearing when it is pushed out with some force at a canted angle, however minute that may be, it just magnifies over time. As we all know just about the biggest forces on the bike are here and failure of precision is going to become an issue. The outer race surface lip on the bearing is not captured by anything on the bike (like it is on an outboard cup system)...it is essentially free floating, so this allows the bearing to move outboard along the axis of the spindle. Once this occurs, the only thing holding the bearing in place is the clip inside the races...in other words, not much. Since the outer surface of the race is now not fully captured by the BB shell, then deformation may occur, and once this happens, IMO, damage can occur.

As to greasing the outer part of the seals and bearings, the grease just helps prevent water infiltration which is a good thing. (Let me first state that I am not a fan of sealed bearings, period. But they are a fact of life, and we have to deal with them.) As you know, on a sealed bearing, if water penetrates the seal, it has no where to drain, and it is just a matter of time before that bearing is going to fail. The issue is even more acute for northern winter/spring riders who ride on salted roads. A sealed bearing really isn't: Not in the sense that it is "water proof," merely only "water resistant." And the bearings on the new Madones are really exposed.

I tend to agree with your last comments, with one exception, though. I do think this is somewhat of a design issue* (_especially for a mass marketed frame_), I do think there are improper installations leading to failure too. However, It is also my opinion that these bikes are not intended to be tough, beater bikes. They are not made, designed nor intended to be set and forget. Rather, like any high end, highly precise, and finely tuned machine, they require constant care and attention. I have always treated all my high end bikes like this.

( * I think I have mentioned somewhere along the line of an early conversation I had with my dealer and with his Trek rep about the BB design, and my concerns over this design, but I am not an engineer.) 

zac


----------



## imaca

I don't think I do as many miles as you (my mountain bike is 8 years old):-}
I know a sealed bearing isn't going to last forever, but, in my experience I have had a lot of them last a long time with absolutely no maintenance.
I like sealed bearings and don't like lots of maintenance (I hated adjustable BBs and 1" threaded steerers).
For me, threadless steerers and sealed BBs require no maintenance except replacement when worn (generally after a very long time)
You may be right about the grease acting as protection, but I wonder if its human nature to believe in cause and effect, (I'm doing lots of maintenance therefore my bearings must be lasting longer)
I don't think of my Madone as a "beater bike", but I was concerned about the carbon cup design before I bought it. 
Trek, however, published a piece on their website regarding testing of the design, saying that they had tested a Madone long enough to go through 3 sets of bearings with no problems , and that they expected no one would ever actually do this in real life. 
I agree that if the BB comes loose that it may well cause damage to the cups, I just don't think this should happen in such a short time (Ive only done about 5000-10,000k).
Also the amount of play in my BB when I discovered it was miniscule (almost undetectable), its hard to believe this amount of play was the result of a loose BB AND worn cups.
I don't see any link between high end and high maintenance, in fact just the opposite - low end hubs, BBs etc generally require much more maintenance.


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## gormleyflyer2002

the BB is a bad design, simple as that. I don't expect every new innovation to be a winner but how the address the problem and correct it will how they are measured......at least for me.


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## PlatyPius

Glad I found this thread. I have a customer/team rider with a Madone (Red cranks) that has this problem. I'll just send him directly to the Trek dealer.


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## zac

imaca said:


> I don't think I do as many miles as you (my mountain bike is 8 years old):-}
> I know a sealed bearing isn't going to last forever, but, in my experience I have had a lot of them last a long time with absolutely no maintenance.
> I like sealed bearings and don't like lots of maintenance (I hated adjustable BBs and 1" threaded steerers).
> For me, threadless steerers and sealed BBs require no maintenance except replacement when worn (generally after a very long time)
> You may be right about the grease acting as protection, but I wonder if its human nature to believe in cause and effect, (I'm doing lots of maintenance therefore my bearings must be lasting longer)
> I don't think of my Madone as a "beater bike", but I was concerned about the carbon cup design before I bought it.
> Trek, however, published a piece on their website regarding testing of the design, saying that they had tested a Madone long enough to go through 3 sets of bearings with no problems , and that they expected no one would ever actually do this in real life.
> I agree that if the BB comes loose that it may well cause damage to the cups, I just don't think this should happen in such a short time (Ive only done about 5000-10,000k).
> Also the amount of play in my BB when I discovered it was miniscule (almost undetectable), its hard to believe this amount of play was the result of a loose BB AND worn cups.
> I don't see any link between high end and high maintenance, in fact just the opposite - low end hubs, BBs etc generally require much more maintenance.


I agree, don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying that you were beating on the bike, nor that others are too. It's just that I see lots of folks with high end machines (whether a Madone, or any other brand) just store them in the garage after a ride, and not look at it or care for it until the next ride...to me that is essentially a beater bike...a set and forget, no care type of bike.

I have a feeling that there are many folks out there riding with this issue, and they have no idea.

My 2008 6.5 had crank movement due to NDS bearing failure. That was easily remedied, but Trek wanted the frame back any how.
My 2009 6.5 so far has been good. But I do keep a close eye on the situation. And believe me at the first sign play, it will be going back to my LTD (LBS).

zac


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## zac

PlatyPius said:


> Glad I found this thread. I have a customer/team rider with a Madone (Red cranks) that has this problem. I'll just send him directly to the Trek dealer.


While you probably already have ruled out bearing failure as the issue, this is the best route to go.

You may want to take a look at some of the threads about seating the bearings too, just to rule that out. Also RE-setting the cranks, after a couple of miles. I am not a full time mechanic like you, so you may have a better feel for preloading the cranks on the spindle, but I have found that that helps, and has eliminated all play.

HTH
zac


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## 82zman

Ok I have also joined the BB play club. I have a new 08 (Was a close out model) 5.2 with a Shimano Ultegra compact on it. It has < 2K mi on it and I found lateral play in the BB. Trek is sending modified bearings to my LBS. I spoke directly with the customer service rep at trek who told me this is a tested fix. I did not completely understand it but apparently this is a modified bearing they may involve a shim or spacer. I will post my experience with this after the repair.


----------



## imaca

zac said:


> My 2008 6.5 had crank movement due to NDS bearing failure. That was easily remedied, but Trek wanted the frame back any how.
> My 2009 6.5 so far has been good. But I do keep a close eye on the situation. And believe me at the first sign play, it will be going back to my LTD (LBS).
> 
> zac


I'll be keeping an eye on mine too (haven't heard yet if I'm getting the OS bearing fix, or replacement).
I guess I can live with frequent bearing replacement, if necessary, but I'm worried about getting the OS bearing fix after what I have read here.
(I can't say I like the new paint jobs much tho, the black 2008 5.2 has a nice understated look imho)
I'm curious if anyone has had the oversize bearing fix, and then had no further trouble?
Also does anyone know if the problem has gone away with later models? Are there any obvious design changes?
I had a '97? 5000 OCLV which had the metal BB sleeve come loose (from memory it wasn't too uncommon).
Trek replaced it with a '99 5500 which had an obviously redesigned BB (the sleeve had flanges) which consequently gave no trouble for 9 years (it was a great bike). My point is, Trek seem like a very engineering oriented company, and its hard to imagine they haven't worked hard to solve this problem.

Also - are there 2 different fits still? Looking at the Trek site it seems there is now only the "pro" fit


----------



## joker

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> the BB is a bad design, simple as that. I don't expect every new innovation to be a winner but how the address the problem and correct it will how they are measured......at least for me.




this is spot on , in my opinion the bb is a bad design ,no amount of greasing will change it , however i think a simple solution would be to have the bb cup, thread,in place rather than just be floating. ie the frame would have a thread to take the tread of the bb cup so that when the bb cups wearout the frame is still ok ,worn bb cup gets un threaded put in bin and new cups treaded into place,walla


----------



## 82zman

I got the new bearings installed and the play is gone after a few very short test rides that is the good news. Here is what I think is an issue: 

The BB feels too tight. The mechanic said it will wear in but with the chain removed I spin the cranks as hard as I can I get about 1.5 revolutions. Does that seem too tight even considering a break in? It does to me. It is however very smooth. There is no unevenness all the way around a circle or any unusual resistance. This will be a heavy training week for me. S.B around 15 hours. I would think by then if there is a "break in" then I will feel the difference

Help! need your opinions


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## 82zman

Well after a two hour ride the BB has definitely loosened a bit and thankfully no lateral play. I also called Trek and got a little education regarding this bearing type compared to the bearings in my Trek1500 which I was using as a reference point. Trek rep told me the bearings in the Madone (08 and newer) will always offer a bit of resistance even when properly installed and will never spin as freely as the bearing type in my Trek1500.

So let the miles pile on and we will see what happens


----------



## imaca

I have mine back and it now seems to have large rubber washers between the crack and BB. These turn with the cranks, and seem to create a lot of drag.
Not terribly impressive.
Will now ride as much as possible to see what happens.


----------



## 82zman

IMACA,

The rubber washers you are referring to belong there. They are seals and they do rotate. They were on my bike before I discovered the problem. Check this out for how the BB installshttp://www.trekbikes.com/pdf/owners_manuals/TK10_Madoneservice_062309.pdf

Also after around 6 hours my BB has loosened up to where I am getting three revolutions when I spin them by hand with the chain off and again thankfully no more BB play. As I mentioned before with the sealed bearings there will be some drag. Sealed bearings have a certain amount of drag from the seals and from the grease packed into the bearing. That is normal. It will slowly decrease with time but probably never to the point where the BB free wheels. I have had two conversations about this with Trek so this is not just me shooting from the hip.

I am holding out hope that for me the problem is solved with the new V2 bearing. (V2=Version Two Bearing. That is what the Trek rep called it)

One thing that I think that is in my favor is I found this problem early (<600 mi) when I was troubleshooting a creak that turned out not to be coming from the BB. 

Good Luck IMACA, for now your repair seems to be right on track.


----------



## imaca

82ZMAN, thanks for reply and link to manual.
Glad to hear that they loosen up. 
Pretty sure my bike ('08 5.2) didn't have these before.
Good luck to you also.


----------



## occyclist

*Team Frame Update*

Just built up one of the replacement frames. BB sockets on this frame are definitely tighter. No way to hand press the bearings in. The Madone bearing tool was no help either. Had to lightly tool press the bearings in. 

The second frame had the "new bearing" installed by Trek. No way to remove these bearings without a puller or tapping them out. Bearings are very stiff as well, but may break in over time. We'll see how they do.


----------



## big cat

*Trek technical opinion*

How long this thread! 

It should be interesting to know the Trek opinion and which technical modification they have planed to solve the bottom bracket play. What troubles me is the Trek silence on the matter. 

I would like to buy a Madone frame (a lot of money!!), I love it but the suggestions of this thread are not definitive solution and they don't help me to take a decision.


----------



## 82zman

I have spoken with Trek about this issue and the V2 bearing fix in not a "one of" or a prototype. It is the official fix for this issue and thus far ( about 300 miles) It is working for me. I gave the BB a good work out last Saturday with 9K of climbing with high speed descents over rough roads and the fix held up fine.

As a general rule I have noticed that manufacturers do not make it a common practice to respond to forums. I bet they do monitor them though. The exception to this would be I-Bike


----------



## jsedlak

82zman said:


> I have spoken with Trek about this issue and the V2 bearing fix in not a "one of" or a prototype. It is the official fix for this issue and thus far ( about 300 miles) It is working for me. I gave the BB a good work out last Saturday with 9K of climbing with high speed descents over rough roads and the fix held up fine.
> 
> As a general rule I have noticed that manufacturers do not make it a common practice to respond to forums. I bet they do monitor them though. The exception to this would be I-Bike


What is the "V2" bearing fix?

Mine recently needed to be replaced (again). Trek has sent a custom bearing, wondering how to know if it is the "V2" one or not.

Right now I am riding on a normal bearing with a quick fix until it comes.


----------



## gormleyflyer2002

mine was a very thin shim (with a flange) shrunk onto the bearing OD. it was very tight when installed. maybe not hightech but it worked.......your stuck buying OEM parts forever.


----------



## 82zman

Just when I thought I was past this.

I noticed that the seal on the drive side looked funky. Brought the bike into a different Trek dealer and it turns out that the previous Trek dealer damaged the outer edge of the bearing causing a burr which was slowly shredding the rubber seal. Too bad because otherwise this fix was good to go.

Got another set of V2 bearings installed and worked for one ride but then last Friday I was climbing a hill with a 15% grade and with each pedal revolution I heard snap, snap, snap. Removed chain from chain ring and spun cranks lightly with my finger, motion was smooth but with each revolution I heard the snapping noise.

Back to the shop for the fourth time with this issue


----------



## jsedlak

82zman said:


> Just when I thought I was past this.
> 
> I noticed that the seal on the drive side looked funky. Brought the bike into a different Trek dealer and it turns out that the previous Trek dealer damaged the outer edge of the bearing causing a burr which was slowly shredding the rubber seal. Too bad because otherwise this fix was good to go.
> 
> Got another set of V2 bearings installed and worked for one ride but then last Friday I was climbing a hill with a 15% grade and with each pedal revolution I heard snap, snap, snap. Removed chain from chain ring and spun cranks lightly with my finger, motion was smooth but with each revolution I heard the snapping noise.
> 
> Back to the shop for the fourth time with this issue


It was making the noise without any pressure on the crank? Yikes!

I just re-read the thread, and still have no idea what to think about all this.


----------



## 82zman

yes just spinning the crank with my finger caused the snapping/clicking noise. Then I went away for the weekend with my wife and the bike sat a few days upside down and low and behold after returning the noise nearly disappeared. Can anyone explain that one

Shop mechanic can not recreate the problem. It currently sits in the shop waiting for new seals which the mechanic said it needed but probably did not contribute to the problem.

getting weary of the time in the shop, my ford focus has 160K and has spent less time in the shop than this bike


----------



## zac

82zman said:


> Just when I thought I was past this.
> 
> I noticed that the seal on the drive side looked funky. Brought the bike into a different Trek dealer and it turns out that the previous Trek dealer damaged the outer edge of the bearing causing a burr which was slowly shredding the rubber seal. Too bad because otherwise this fix was good to go.
> 
> Got another set of V2 bearings installed and worked for one ride but then last Friday I was climbing a hill with a 15% grade and with each pedal revolution I heard snap, snap, snap. Removed chain from chain ring and spun cranks lightly with my finger, motion was smooth but with each revolution I heard the snapping noise.
> 
> Back to the shop for the fourth time with this issue


82zman, could you kindly post a picture of these V2 bearings, thanks.

Also anyone with a 2010 6 Series, if you could post close ups of the BB sockets on the frame.

I am tempted to start a thread with a request for information, namely things like year of Madone and type of crankset. I am wondering if there is a correlation between a particular crankset/BB and the issue.

zac


----------



## 82zman

zac said:


> 82zman, could you kindly post a picture of these V2 bearings, thanks.
> 
> Also anyone with a 2010 6 Series, if you could post close ups of the BB sockets on the frame.
> 
> I am tempted to start a thread with a request for information, namely things like year of Madone and type of crankset. I am wondering if there is a correlation between a particular crankset/BB and the issue.
> 
> zac



Sorry no chance for a pic. I have never had them in my possession because all the work has been done at the shop


----------



## GGW

Same story here on a 2009 5.2 size 54 .Proplems have started after my LBS cleaned the BB .It was the end of season and during winter upgraded for DA so did not worry to much about that noise around the BB area .After 1000 km same noise is back not even pushing on the pedal .


----------



## jsedlak

82zman said:


> Sorry no chance for a pic. I have never had them in my possession because all the work has been done at the shop


I've seen them up close, and they look like the ones on your site, zac.

I got mine installed, but still have a clicking noise. I have noticed that it only occurs while on the small chain ring though, no matter how heavy I mash on the big ring. I think I may be losing my mind.


----------



## GGW

jsedlak said:


> I've seen them up close, and they look like the ones on your site, zac.
> 
> I got mine installed, but still have a clicking noise. I have noticed that it only occurs while on the small chain ring though, no matter how heavy I mash on the big ring. I think I may be losing my mind.


Samething here on the small chain ring its louder but still hear it on the big one ...makes two loosing mind ,still focusing on this noise while riding ,no fun .
.


----------



## jsedlak

GGW said:


> Samething here on the small chain ring its louder but still hear it on the big one ...makes two loosing mind ,still focusing on this noise while riding ,no fun .
> .


Have you checked your chain ring bolts? :mad2: I am such a dummy when it comes to these things. Found a loose one, tightened it up and all is well again.


----------



## GGW

jsedlak said:


> Have you checked your chain ring bolts? :mad2: I am such a dummy when it comes to these things. Found a loose one, tightened it up and all is well again.


Glad you find the source of the noise .Well my madone is gone for inspection .It a new gruppo DA 7900 since april so didnt check the chain ring bolt .The noise was there also with the Ultegra so for what i've been reading here i do think its the "BB syndrome" .The mulet is going out earlier this summer .


----------



## GGW

Got my bike back . Trek rep took it for a few days for inspection .Bike got tested under pooring rain came back with the chain , cassette , crank ,rims all coverd with sh*t .Bonus more noise  Not sure if the noise come from the BB this time,cannot know what as been dont on the bike ,LBS either .The smaller ring on the crank is also very noisy and its not the chain rubbing on fd .Anyway i'm going to clean the bike and see from there .Trek rep very ordinary


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## red_eye5

My Madone has developed the same problem. LBS said V2 bearings are the fix though may have to pay for it since the bike is over 12 months old. I didnt know about this issue so got a replacement bottom bracket on the net less than 2 months ago and now turns out I may have to buy another one. Does anyone know if this fix is permanent. I paid a lot of money for my bike and cannot do with it being in the workshop after every couple of months.


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## 82zman

red_eye5 said:


> My Madone has developed the same problem. LBS said V2 bearings are the fix though may have to pay for it since the bike is over 12 months old. I didnt know about this issue so got a replacement bottom bracket on the net less than 2 months ago and now turns out I may have to buy another one. Does anyone know if this fix is permanent. I paid a lot of money for my bike and cannot do with it being in the workshop after every couple of months.


Well finally my BB issue seems to be in the past. Mechanic replaced seals and reseated crank. When I got it back I heard about 30 seconds worth of noise from the BB and then never heard anything again. Trek rep was confused by this but said it could have been a small piece of debris that worked its way loose. Did a bunch of climbing in NC (Mitchell, Caesars Head to name a few) and a few 100 mi+ rides since then and not a peep from it nor any BB play. Seems like the climbing is what really aggravated my issue so that's why I mention it and why I am declaring victory.

Red eye,

Only time will tell if its permanent but my guess is that it will be considering what I put my bike through the last month. Trek told me they did a ton of testing on it and I will take their word on it. Also I would call Trek as your repair should be warranty. Have them call your shop. Call Trek at 920-478-2191 and tell them you are a consumer with a technical question and you will be directed to a knowledgeable customer service rep. In my experience I find that they are very helpful and are interested in a happy customer.


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## JHAN

My '09 Madone started making a clicking noise about a month ago. It sounded like it was coming from the bottom bracket area.
I checked everything, BB, headset, replaced the chain and cassette, every bolt and it would'nt go away!
Yesterday it struck me to check the wheels, I found 1 loose spoke on the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) and the CLICK CLACK is now GONE!
THANK GOD!:mad2:


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## occyclist

You will know if you have a this BB problem if you unable to remove the play in the BB. Our bikes never had any noise, just a lot of play. 

The V2 bearing has held up to this point. The V2 bearing solution makes me think that the bearing is now part of the frame and now should be warranted as the frame would. I would think V2 bearing owners should be able to get replacements for life.


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## Edward1974

*madone 5.2 bottom bracket.*



joker said:


> hi folks i've had my new trek madone 5.2 since october 2008 and have a lot of play at the crankset bottom bracket area , the bike was fitted with new bearing races today but there is still lots of play , the chainset is dura ace and is new since october also , i've only done about 2000 miles , has anyone else had problembs like this


Same problem. Took it to my LBS, Tried to replace it with a fix,, Didn't work so they have put a request into trek for a new frame, Take it back to your LBS or a trek dealer and they should take care of it. It took a while but they will make it right.

Good luck


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## dw67

Had some issue as all of you with my 2008 Madone 5.2. Sloppy BB, bearings not seating properly, just got real bad after hard ride this past weekend. Brought bike into dealer Sunday, They reported it to Trek on Monday, I called Trek headquarters Tuesday to confirm that they had all info (they did). Rep told me that they were aware it was an ongoing problem with those frames and mentioned larger bearings. I told him in a very passive tone, that I really would prefer a new frameset that doesnt have that problem as opposed to the new bearings. He told me he would see what he could do.

Got call today from LBS that the new 2010 frame is being shipped tomorrow and will be here in a couple days. Trek and LBS were great, they actually said they wanted to make sure I was ok with the color. Its better than what I had. Amazing customer service.


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## Chief BB

*Trek Madone bottom bracket*

I bought a 2008 Madone 5.2 and had play in the bottom bracket. The shop tried the Trek fix with the bearing shims but is still had some play in it. Trek did the right thing and replaced the frame even though it was two and a half years old with 13,000 miles.


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## gormleyflyer2002

it would be great if tbb001 could reply to this thread and add some insight. 

obviously they know thay have a problem....what have they done to the new frames to address it.........or is it the same design ?


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## epret

I called Trek and they told me their new frames don't need the V2 bearings. Are any of you riding a 2010/2011 without the V2? Any problems?


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## EVP

I have a 2010 Madone with 4,000 miles and I am waiting for my third set of BB bearings. Not loose, just making noises and getting rough. Has anyone else experienced this?


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## 82zman

I posted quite a bit on my 2008 Madone. The latest is the new V2 bearings started to make clicking noises after a few thousand miles. Took it to the shop and the mechanic found the shim on the V2 separating from the bearings. A new set of V2 bearings were sent but this time around the mechanic worked with Trek over the phone during the installation. Based on the mechanics feedback the trek rep decided that the bearings were fitting too tight which was causing the previous set to to wear prematurely. He had the mechanic install non-modified standard bearings. One would think now the bottom bracket play would return with the non-modified bearings but strangely after about 1500 miles it has not. Go figure.

Have you called Trek regarding your bearings wearing out? They have worked extremely well with me to solve my issues


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## EVP

I plan on contacting them this week. We replaced the original BB bearings with an upgrade to ceramic bearings 800 miles later the noise again. Trek tried to tell the LBS that it was due to "elements" and wasn't a warranty issue. When I pressed my LBS to show where in the owners manual that it said you can not ride a madone in the rain (irregardless that I haven't ridden it in the rain) he agreed to go back to the original bearings. They should be here next week.


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## gman3

Play in my bearings again. I made it since June 2010. Funny bike shop seems to be complaining because I need a new chain again and really should get rear cassette. Its been 5 k miles. They should never have sold me the red shield plan if they were going to ***** okay complain


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## early one

gman3, are you still on a 2008 5.1 ?


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## gman3

No in June of 2009 it was replaced with a 5.2. Third set of bearings on new frame.
These bikes cost too much to have to put up with this. It will be one month until I see it again


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## Subzero47

*2009 Madone 5.2 BB90 issues*

Well I have had my Madone since Jan 2010. Recently went out for a ride and heard a clunking and play on the non drive side. Took apart the crank and BB to find the non drive side enduro bearing had seized and spun in the BB carbon cup.

 Now the non drive side bearing just slips in its not a tight fit at all. As compared to the drive side that has to be pressed in. After spending over 4 K on this bike and finding out that the BB it’s made of a material that can easily wear I will never own another madone. What a failure for trek to sell bikes like this. If the Madone had the BB 30 system this would not be as bad. Well fellas since I have no warranty coverage for this does anyone have any suggestions? Is there any type of adapter to go to and outside bearing cup? Any one seen a BB30 fitted to a Madone.?

In hind site the LBS that sold Cannondales told me I would have issues with my Madone boy he was right.:mad2:


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## EVP

*warranty*

Don't these frames have a lifetime warranty, why don't you have cover?


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## Subzero47

*Used*

Got the bike used only a month old. Will never do that again as well. And speaking to LBS since the enduro bearing failed it would not be covered.


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## gman3

Update
Trek says new bearing will fix play. 20 bucks for bearings 20 bucks for install. Another nice thng from Trek. The Red Sheild policy. I bought the 3 year one for my bike when I bought it in November 2007. Chain was worn so I figured Id get that replaced. Claim denied. Trek says that the Red Sheild plan expired as it ran concurrent with the one year 
regular warranty. Here is the thing under the one year warranty, that doesnt cover wearing parts so I paid to have chain and cassette replaced during the first year. The policy does not read very well. When I got the chain during the first year the bike shop said that Red Shield doent kick in until after the first year then its good for 3. Thats how they sold it too.
They were shocked Trek denied the claim. I still got my moneys worth out of Red Shield but for now on Ill be paying for crank bearing replacement and builds on new frames due to Treks faulty design. Live and learn. Never a Trek again


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## smokey0066

I may be joining the crowd with a 2008 5.2 BB play. Odd thing is I have bearing play on the drive side BB where as most posters have non-drive side BB play. I will be paying a visit to the LBS to see if I can get a different set of bearings or what the deal is. I'm hesitant to continue to ride on it as a loose bearing will just wear away at the socket no?


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## gman3

Well the claim is if the bearing is bad or gets dirti in it it will make the bottom bracket itself bad, which really should not happen
In any case an up date on my 2008 5.2. I got the bike back with new bearings and rode Sunday. As soon as I stood out of the saddle click click click. Its back at the bike shop now. They say they tightend bearing and it should be fixed but will have someone stand on the pedals. Ive heard this story so many times. I told them if there is any click just calll Trek because I wont take the bike back like that


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## smokey0066

Dropped the bike off tonight at the store. The service manager will be looking at it tomorrow. I will stop by after work and find out whats going on.


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## smokey0066

Does anyone have a warranty # to call trek at? I don't see anything on their website.


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## heatwave23

Okay I have hit this issue on my 2008 5.2 madone and will try and document my experience so you all will have something to gauge yours. 
Like most people my non-drive side is much worse than the drive side but I can remove both easily with just my fingers. 
I replace my bearings “stock trek bearings from my LBS” ~3k I have ~2k on this set
I have ~10k on the bike
Weight ~155lbs, Avg power ~210 Avg power, avg power during a sprint ~1k

I dropped the bike off on Thursday 5min after they opened. This is the same LBS that I bought the bike from and I also bought an EX8 not long after I purchased this bike.
Questions asked after I told him about issues
Did you buy that SRAM groupo from us? No
Did we install it? No, I did and I service them religiously 

Noticeably not happy with my answers and acted like they have never seen this issue. However I happen to know they have seen this issue more than once. I consider this the 1st stretch of the truth to say it nicely so this will make it difficult to give them the benefit of doubt on other answers I receive that don’t sound quite right 
I was told I would hear back later that day or Fri. 
Store hours: Mon-Wed 10am-7pm Thur 10am-8pm Fri 10am-7pm Sat 10am-5pm Sun 12pm-5pm
Monday 5:00pm not a word, I send a nice email to the owner of the shop asking the status. 
Response was prompt and stated they stayed late to submit the claim Thurs and he would touch base with the shop manager… However he didn’t provide information on what to expect next in the process.

Tuesday Morning I get a email from the shop manager saying the same and that I can pickup my bike while we wait for the Trek rep and again no info on what to expect next in this process. 
Tuesday afternoon I pick up my bike and ask, how long before we hear back from Trek? 
Answer ~week and no other information provided 
I will try and update ~the 8th


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## 82zman

Heatwave,
I am not sure why it takes your shop and others so long to hear back from trek. I Never waited more than a day. Get the claim number and call them yourself. Most likely they will recommend the modified bearing called the v2(version 2) I am running SRAM force and the v2 bearing is working for me.


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## heatwave23

Hi 82zman, 
Thank you for your reply. I do try and support my LBS’s but in this particular shops case my mileage has varied for each experience. I am glad the V2 bearing is working out for you and I guess in a way I am not being pushy because I really don’t like the idea of the V2 bearing and would prefer my frame to be replaced. Even though I think Trek has gone WAY overboard with putting their name on practically every square inch of the bike  

My completely uneducated thought process is as follows
a) The bearing is not what is wearing out it is the BB in the frame
b) Trek has strengthened the BB in newer frames, thus indicating an issue with the frame
c) The Frame has a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects, this appears to be either a factory defect or a design flaw 
d) I have seen other posts with very mixed results on the V2 bearing however no one has posted issues with a frame >=2010. 
e) I don’t want to have a “non-standard trek only” component in my bike, you can guess the problems that may cause if I ever needed find a replacement quickly
f) This I am not sure but it appears that some people have been sending their bike off to trek for the V2 bearings and being without their bike for weeks. “that is unacceptable for me” If they send a new frame I can strip my bike down and swap frames in a day


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## zac

Wow this issue is still going on. 

I am still of the opinion that three primary things lead to this issue, and that it is correctable until such time as the precision sockets themselves get damaged after the failure of the bearings.

1) Improper bearing installation. Either the inner dust/moisture sleeves were never properly seated, preventing the bearings from seating properly, or the bearings themselves were never seated properly, due to several reasons. The dust sleeves, especially. It is easy to f that up as it has a very small margin for error. If they are not seated, they will absolutely prevent the bearings from properly seating, but what's worse, is that it will essentially not be noticeable, until a problem arises.

2) Bearing failure. The bearings are exposed. IMHO, they need more attention than is typical. Once moisture gets past the seal, it is only a short matter of time before the bearings start to corrode. This failure in such a precision system, will compound over time leading to it wearing against the outer race surface and the surface of the socket...this is not good, and once it happens, it becomes difficult to correct. The BB socket on the frame is not designed to wear, so....you can see the problem here. 
I am of the opinion, that the Madone's socket fit bearings are no longer a durable component on the bike, Instead,
I view the Madone BB90 bearings to be a consumable now, and they are inspected frequently and changed a couple times a year, similar to chain changes for me.

3) Failure to readjust the crankset. I think it is prudent to torque down the crankset to spec after an initial install. THEN RIDE THE BIKE A COUPLE OF MILES, THEN RESET AND RETORQUE THE CRANKS on the spindle. This IMHO pulls in the system those last few fractions of a mm that may be needed. 


HTH those not yet experiencing these issues or those who have just begun to experience them.
zac


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## gormleyflyer2002

this is backyard engineering at best.....The V2 bearing doesn't work in my frame, its still loose and just falls in and out. 

Dealer was told to send it back to Trek, to install properly ! ! funny stuff......they need to get it fixed, V2 is a joke, who wants a none standard bike........how many Trek dealers stock v2 bearings.


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## heatwave23

Hi Zac, 

Nice write up and I certainly agree that any of the things listed would cause BB issues in the Madone. However I am fairly diligent/careful about servicing the BB and would be amazed if my issue fell into any of things listed. A torque wrench was the 1st tool that i purchased once I decided to work on my bikes and I downloaded the Madone Assembly Guide.pdf before ever tackling the BB maintenance to ensure I was doing the maintenance as Trek advised.


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## gormleyflyer2002

ZAC...no offence. You are quick to defend Trek on this. Lets suggest that I have done everything as you mention and I still has the problem ? What is to fault ? 

I'm machinist, I repair and service centrifuges for a living. eg, rotors that spin from 3000 to 50,000 RPM and can weight up to 10T. Its (BB90) is a crude design at best ! 

The Sram system has axial preload spring and isn't really so technical eh ?


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## zac

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> ZAC...no offence. You are quick to defend Trek on this. Lets suggest that I have done everything as you mention and I still has the problem ? What is to fault ?
> 
> I'm machinist, I repair and service centrifuges for a living. eg, rotors that spin from 3000 to 50,000 RPM and can weight up to 10T. Its (BB90) is a crude design at best !
> 
> The Sram system has axial preload spring and isn't really so technical eh ?



gorm, I am not defending them at all! Sorry if it seems like that, I am just trying to make the best of this situation. Trek needs to fix these issues and take care of their customers.

If you go way back and check some of my early posts about the "new" Madone, I had conversations with shop mechanics, and Trek dealers (folks who I feel are much more in the loop and knowledgable than I), and otherwise wondered aloud if and how well this BB90 would hold up. I was skeptical of it back then (This was late '07 early '08). It appears that my fears and concerns (back then) are apparently being realized by many. This is a problem for Trek and they need to address it and fix it. I am not an engineer like you, I don't know the solution, but I dare say I have enough practical experience to at least render a somewhat knowledgable opinion. 

All I can do is relate my own experiences. General regular preventive maintenance keeps the gremlins away for me, however, every once in a while I let the cranks go too long. 

It is invariably the NDS crank that starts to have that slight tick, and it is always due to the NDS bearing. Bottom brackets should last longer than 3-6 months. While the BB90 is not a traditional BB, it is/was touted by Trek as the next generation...one would assume, better, stronger, lighter. The first two don't seem to be the case at all. I don't need to say that we all expect to get years out of a BB with routine maintenance. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Madone. Unfortunately the BB90 system is now demoted to the consumable level of bike maintenance...chains, cassettes, chainrings, brake pads, tires, cables, bar tape...Now the BB bearings too! This sucks! 

I suppose what I am trying to impress on folks who read this thread, is that perhaps the permenant damage that may eventually occur to the precision sockets of the frame can be headed off with _routine*_ maintenance. (* I should say regular maintenance, as there is nothing routine about it.)

As I said, it is my humble opinion that once the bearing fails, the outer race surface starts to grind away on the socket. While it should move, I don't think the seized or gritty, corroded bearing leads to the type of movement that is good for the socket surface. This may deform it, or just slowly grind away at it, either elongating it sending it out of round, or otherwise deforming it preventing the precision fit that is needed.

Look at the other race surface of one of the failed bearings. Invariably they are scored with the carbon/boron surface of the socket. I have thrown enough of them away to know, they are all the same.

While the bearings themselves are not expensive, they are still like $20 a set. I keep several new sets in my box and just reorder when I get low. To me this is not right, as I have several bikes with BBs that are years, and decades old with just regular maintenance.

This last time around, I also needed to replace my NDS crank arm. While this could have been attributed to just metal fatigue, (I have broken cranks before) it is the first DuraAce crank I have yet to replace. The crank failure (the pinch bolt countersunk holes where elongated, and bent the bolts - the threading appears to still be good, but with the bolts bent they could fail, pull through the elongated holes, and/or generally not torque down to spec.). The crank arm itself is good, but I don't trust it to hold the way it should, nor do I want to crush my spindle and have to replace the whole crankset either. Is this also related to my most recent tic there and need to replace the NDS bearing? I don't know. It happened, parts break all the time.

The other thing that is not good about this issue, is that Trek mass markets the Madone...I am a pretty experienced mechanic, and have been doing all my bikes for over 30 years, so to me, I guess I am not as upset about it. But this is a real problem and if you don't work on your own bike and don't do the maintenance (And I contend that this is fairly advanced maintenance for a road bike.) it is a real issue. A Madone owner shouldn't have to be at the LBS every few months to correct this issue. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to get down on anyone who has realized this problem, I feel for you. I hate it when I have a favorite ride out of commission because of a broken part, that I need to reorder. As I said, or at least what I think, once the damage has been done to the socket, it's done, it's too late! Warranty the frame and move on Trek. As I understand the V2 bearing, I cannot get my head around how it is supposed to correct the problem, as I cannot imagine that every socket expands in the exact same manner. But again, I am going to trust folks like you who have real world experience in troubleshooting these issues. 

Boy that was long...


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## zac

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> ZAC...no offence. You are quick to defend Trek on this. Lets suggest that I have done everything as you mention and I still has the problem ? What is to fault ?
> 
> I'm machinist, I repair and service centrifuges for a living. eg, rotors that spin from 3000 to 50,000 RPM and can weight up to 10T. Its (BB90) is a crude design at best !
> 
> *The Sram system has axial preload spring and isn't really so technical eh ?*


All the two piece cranksets that can be used in the Madone, have some sort of tension method to hold the cranks together on the spindle and prevent axial movement.

The thing that troubles me the most of the BB90 is that nothing is holding the bearings in place axially. (Does that make sense?) Other than what was designed before the BB90 came into play.

Traditionally as we all know, the outer cup screwed into the BB shell and the integrity of the BB shell itself held the bearings in place. The spindle thereafter (at least on a modern 2 piece crankset) was simply allowed to float freely and the axial movement was kept in check by the slight tension of the cap nut (for instance on a Shimano crankset). So while there could have been slight movement of the spindle in the axial direction, it really didn't effect the bearings nor the integrity of the system itself.

Now with the BB90, the whole system is dependent on that same cap nut and the tension of the pinch on the spindle...Were these two piece cranksets designed for this? It remains to me at least to be a less than ideal way to accomplish this task. This is where I would rely on you for your opinion.


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## heatwave23

Latest update

Yesterday marked a week since they claim to have submitted my claim.I email the shop manager for a update yesterday and have not received a response. Thus causing me to send the following to the shop owner. 
-----------------------------------------------------
I really am not trying to be worrisome but I emailed "Shop Mgr" yesterday in regards
to the warranty claim with Trek. I do understand this is a busy time of year but
I was told that we should hear something in about a week and yesterday marked a
week.

In my email to "Shop Mgr" , I requested the name of the Trek Rep that handles your
warranty claims and the claim number?

I was planning to contact Trek at 920-478-2191 but talking to the Trek Rep 1st
may make more sense but I do not have his contact info.

This was in an effort to contact Trek and see if I could help you guy’s by
taking something off your plate and to speed up the resolution.

Maybe "Shop Mgr" is overwhelmed and is not able to contact your customers in a timely
fashion, as shown by having to stay late and the lack of notification in regards
to the claim being submitted.

By now I think by you know I place a fair amount of priority in a shop’s
customer service, I am very particular about my gear and considering money and
the number of hours I spend in the saddle I like my stuff to be right.

After riding a different bike last weekend that didn’t have a creak in the
crank, it has only exacerbated the issue in my mind even though it hasn’t gotten
any worse since dropping the bike off last weekend. 

If I am being unreasonable please let me know. I am not under the delusion that
the customer is always right.


----------



## joker

Hi folks , my replacement trek madone 5.5 2009 54cm frame has developed bottom bracket play and was sent back to Trek last week for a warranty issue , i got this frame on 16th june 2009, the bearings have been replaced lots of times but still it has developed the frame wearing issue at the bb .

I was speaking to a rep for Cervelo at an open night at a local bike shop and he explained that Cervelo have bbr wich is centralized on the frame and should even out the wear effect of the bb bearings , he was convinced that Trek got it wrong on the bb design which has resulted in the frames failing , he said the bbr stands for bb-right , and also said that the patent for the Cervelo bbr is available to all bicycle frame manufacturers to use free of charge.....

anyway i'll give an update on my warranty issue when i find ot the outcome thanks


----------



## zac

heatwave23 said:


> Latest update
> 
> If I am being unreasonable please let me know. I am not under the delusion that
> the customer is always right.


No, you paid hard earned, decent money, for something you cannot use. Trek should be bending over backwards to appease customers with these issues.


----------



## hamsey

Is this a problem just on older Treks? I have been following this thread since the fall of 2010 before I purchased my 2011 6 series Madone. I talked to the LBS where I purchased it and was told that it is an issue with the older Treks.

Just purchased (march 2011) a cronus cx and the first time I used it on the trainer I am getting a tick/knock when I really push on the cranks NDS only. When I talked to the LBS about it I was told that the speedplay pedals need grease. I have not brought it in for service yet but reading the latest post I feel that I might also have an issue with the BB.

Could this still be plaguing new treks?

Regards, Norm


----------



## heatwave23

hard to say if it "only" affects the older treks... They claim to have made the BB stronger in newer models. 

Unless you are a BEAST on the bike or are logging excessive miles I doubt you have hit this issue this quickly. 

Easiest way for you to know is to grease the speedplays as your shop recommended.
If you still have the tick/tock... remove the crank and see how difficult it is to remove the the bearings. You should not be able to remove them with just your fingers. 

If you are not comfortable doing that, you should take it to your LBS for service.


----------



## hamsey

Heat,

Definitely not a beast. I purchased just the frame and fork, LBS had to install the BB. Will give an update after LBS takes a look at it.


----------



## zac

hamsey said:


> Heat,
> 
> Definitely not a beast. I purchased just the frame and fork, *LBS had to install the BB*. Will give an update after LBS takes a look at it.


Yeah I would grease the speedplays too, but failing that: 

1) Did your LBS also install the crankset too? If not, then transporting that home could have knocked the bearings a bit (unlikely, but possible). That would be hard to do, but if you didn't install the inner sleeves and bearings then you wouldn't know if they were seated properly by the LBS, or somehow unseated themselves.
2) What is your crankset? Did you retorque it after a few miles? I am pretty sure all 2 piece crank systems recommend a recheck and retorque after some short initial milage. 
3) Check the cranks for spindle play. If it is smooth, or no lateral movement on the crank arm, then probably not the issue many have been having here. 

Just some things to check.

BTW, how do you like the chronos?


----------



## hamsey

Zac,

LBS built up the whole bike. SRAM force and no I did not check and retorque. Something I am going to do when I get home after reading this thread. Did not know about it but it make sense.

I have not taken the cronus on the road yet still on the trainer. Going to swap tires after the the weekend. Been using the madone on the roads so far. I put flat bars on the cronus and 700x25 tires so I can have dirt road/path bike. Plus some of my friends have a flatbar bike and I ride this when we go out. Looking forward to taking it out on the road, seeing how I hated my c'dale quick carbon. Way too much flex on that one.


----------



## zac

hamsey, if you feel comfortable wrenching, and pulling apart that crank and BB, I would highly recommend doing so before you ride another 2 feet on that. Clean out the sockets and take out the inner sleeves, then reassemble the sleeves and bearings dry, just to see how they all fit back together and snap in place. This will give you a base to see how the bearings seat and how they should look. Make doubly sure those dust sleeves are snapped into place too. They fit just as precisely as the bearings do, and if they don't seat, well then the whole system will fail.

Then carefully pull apart the dry fit and reassemble with a light coating of grease and retorque the cranks. 

Again check the cranks after a ride, and retorque them per spec again. 

The whole breakdown and rebuild takes 10 minutes at most.


----------



## heatwave23

Latest, after several emails to the owner as the shop mgr was out of the office last week, we went over "again" the reasons listed above that make me think the V2 is a bad idea. I really think it is just Treks way of extending the life of a flawed bike, knowing that by doing so a lot of them will sold/crashed and once either happens it is no longer a warranty issue. Seems that the owner and shop mgr on not in sync. I received the following email from the shop manger 

"I just received some V2 bearings to install in your frame. As I explained when you brought your bike in, it's Trek's warranty policy to try and fix the problem with the V2 bearings first. If that does not fix the problem then they will proceed with frame replacement"

Just for clarification this was never explained to me by my LBS. They acted like that had never seen the issue when I dropped the bike off. 

I have asked the shop for the contact information for the Trek rep that handles their claims but they appear to be unwilling to provide that information. Does anyone know the fasted way to contact Trek's warranty department?

Final thought on why the V2 bearing is a absurd workaround . 

Trek has stated the following about their BBs.
---------------------------
Net Molding - The all-new Madone, which uses Net Molding carbon technology and “*Precision*” Fit SocketsT to place the bottom bracket bearings directly in the frame itself. The result is an exclusive 90mm wide bottom bracket that provides a 48% increase in lateral down tube stiffness at the bottom bracket.
---------------------------
Hammering in an over-sized V2 bearing into a socket that has *NOT *been *precisely *fitted to the exact size and shape to accept the V2 bearing is unacceptable as a long term fix. No cyclist applies even pressure though out the entire pedal stroke so I would imagine that we are inserting a near perfectly round bearing into what is now an oblong socket. We had toys as kids that taught us not to put the wrong shape peg into a round hole. This also does nothing that I can think of from preventing it from reoccurring.


----------



## zac

Does anyone have any photos of these V2 bearings, or of the installed set.

Are they slightly oversized versions of the standard bearing, or is it some sort of shim/flange that is placed over them, or into the BB socket?

Thanks
zac


----------



## gormleyflyer2002

zac said:


> Does anyone have any photos of these V2 bearings, or of the installed set.
> 
> Are they slightly oversized versions of the standard bearing, or is it some sort of shim/flange that is placed over them, or into the BB socket?
> 
> Thanks
> zac


i have a video showing how they fall into and out of my frame.....but no picture. My (guess) would be .0015" shim sleeve that is shrunk onto a standard bearing.......some backyard engineering at best. The shim is cupped or flanged on one side so it stays in place when pushing the bearing into place.


----------



## heatwave23

They should be installing mine today. I will post pictures soon.


----------



## zac

gormleyflyer2002 said:


> i have a video showing how they fall into and out of my frame.....but no picture. My (guess) would be .0015" shim sleeve that is shrunk onto a standard bearing.......some backyard engineering at best. The shim is cupped or flanged on one side so it stays in place when pushing the bearing into place.


gorm, have you put the video online? Or could you PM me and email it? I would really like to see it.


----------



## zac

heatwave23 said:


> They should be installing mine today. I will post pictures soon.


Thanks! 

Although not sure how much will be visible once they have the outer dust covers and cranks on, but would still like to see them regardless.


----------



## 82zman

This past February I changed over my 2008 5.2 to SRAM force. Before that I had been cycling back and forth between the v2 and the standard bearing(long story). At the time of the SRAM install I had a standard nds bearing. It took less than 1 hour of riding and I got the lateral play. Bearing was switched to v2 and for now my problem is solved. Lots of miles since then. 

I can live with the v2 but the biggest concern is future availability of a non-standard part. I called trek this morning for the part number of the SRAM nds bearing they did not think future availability woud be an issue. Nevertheless Today I ordered a few spares. Once I get the new bearings I will take some good pics of them


----------



## heatwave23

Here is the photo of what should be the V2. no shim/flange.


----------



## zac

Thanks heat,

Now a couple of questions:

1) How does that compare to the size of a standard bearing? (especially the outer race diameter.)

2) I am assuming you pulled that out of the BB shell a bit for the photo, correct?

3) Do you have a SRAM crankset?


----------



## heatwave23

1) How does that compare to the size of a standard bearing? (especially the outer race diameter.)? Not sure, this was taken while they were installing it. I will compare to a set of standard bearings that I have at the house and post a comparison photo. 

2) I am assuming you pulled that out of the BB shell a bit for the photo, correct? Yes

3) Do you have a SRAM crankset? Yes


----------



## zac

Heat, Thanks!



heatwave23 said:


> 1) How does that compare to the size of a standard bearing? (especially the outer race diameter.)? Not sure, this was taken while they were installing it. I will compare to a set of standard bearings that I have at the house and post a comparison photo...



Do you know if Enduro is the OEM for the Truvativ BB bearing you show?

'Cause if they are, then those bearings should be readily available aftermarket.

No shim: So that bearing must be larger than a "standard" bearing. Perhaps only a micrometer will reveal the actual difference in size though.


----------



## 82zman

I was told by trek they use a standard size bearing and fit it into a sleeve. One of the reps also said in some cases during removal the sleeve would remain in the bb when the bearing was replaced so in this case you could order a STD bearing and reuse the sleeve. This was not the case in my situation. The one look I got of a v2 bearing was when one was removed from my bike and when it was the sleeve separated from the bearing. The sleeve is very very thin and not readily apparent on a new bearing. Anyways the part number trek gave me today for SRAM v2 was 416238 and that was what I ordered. As soon as I get the bearings I will post the pictures. 

Heat how did the bearing go in? My mechanic said he needed to pound it in there and it fit really tight. It could not be pressed in without additional force. This is perhaps why I no longer have the side to side play


----------



## heatwave23

Hi Zman

It appears that your shop knows more about the issue than mine because it is a thin metal cup that fits over the bearing. 

Awful picture but I this site only allows us up to upload low res images. 

Update, 

I took the bike out after they replaced "what I thought was both drive and non-drive" bearings...
I still had the issue but it was mildly better. Got home, broke it down to find they "only" replace the drive side... "dead give away was the non-drive side bearing fell out after removing the crank" Note that they replaced the bearing that was the tighter of the two. ARRRRRR


----------



## 82zman

Heat,
I was under the impression the issue is mostly with the nds bearing so I am not surprised by the results. Secondly when I called trek yesterday and asked for the v2 part number so I could order spares I was given a part number for the nds and was told nothing about a modified ds bearing. I think you should call trek. Call 920-478-2191 Ask for Chris at extension 12151. He was very helpful, knowledgeable, and above all seemed to care. He worked with my shop mechanic on the phone to help troubleshoot my bb issue.


----------



## heatwave23

Hey zman, 

My guess is it would be the same part for both sides as the socket diameter for both sides the same.


----------



## joker

82zman said:


> Heat,
> I was under the impression the issue is mostly with the nds bearing so I am not surprised by the results. Secondly when I called trek yesterday and asked for the v2 part number so I could order spares I was given a part number for the nds and was told nothing about a modified ds bearing. I think you should call trek. Call 920-478-2191 Ask for Chris at extension 12151. He was very helpful, knowledgeable, and above all seemed to care. He worked with my shop mechanic on the phone to help troubleshoot my bb issue.



geez i can just picture this telephone help " thats it now take a big mallet and whack it a few times till its in and takes up the slack in this out of shape hole 

please let me know if i'm being too cycnical with my $7000 bike


----------



## heatwave23

joker said:


> geez i can just picture this telephone help " thats it now take a big mallet and whack it a few times till its in and takes up the slack in this out of shape hole
> 
> please let me know if i'm being too cycnical with my $7000 bike


Nice, they must have called Trek before installing mine. Because that is exactly how they installed it. Trek may want to change their warranty policy to say we will fix, replace or just use a beat the crap out of your bike with a hammer until you loose faith in our ability to stand behind our warranty and buy a bike from someone else


----------



## 82zman

I called Trek and there is a V2 bearing for both sides. However they say the DS modification is seldom needed. As I seem to recall my mechanic replaced only the NDS. Again I was told that if the bearing was pressed in with a bearing press that upon removal the sleeve would stay in and the bearing would come out. Only time will tell if this works out in my case


----------



## heatwave23

82zman said:


> I called Trek and there is a V2 bearing for both sides. However they say the DS modification is seldom needed. As I seem to recall my mechanic replaced only the NDS. Again I was told that if the bearing was pressed in with a bearing press that upon removal the sleeve would stay in and the bearing would come out. Only time will tell if this works out in my case


Please post a pic of both side by side so we can see the difference


----------



## cxracer01

joker said:


> hi zac , the bearing race on the non drive side just falls out no pulling or preasure at all it's loose in the frame , i can move it from side to side with my fingers it's so slack .the new bearing race is black. i think the frame itsself is worn .


trek ahs what are called v2 bearings which should take care of it.:idea:


----------



## joker

cxracer01 said:


> trek ahs what are called v2 bearings which should take care of it.:idea:



don't be silly , please read my other posts about my own personal feelings about this :nono:


----------



## zac

cxracer01 said:


> trek ahs what are called v2 bearings which should take care of it.:idea:


cxracer, this thread has followed the BB90/bearing issue from onset to the V2 bearing as a "solution." This thread has been kicking for a while, and the V2 "solution" is still not working for many.

Many of us are of the opinion that the solution is not to cram a shim into an already compromised bearing socket. I for one cannot possibly see how a one size fits all solution would work for a problem can essentially have an infinite amount of variations in size and shape. I have been trying to understand Trek's solution with the V2 bearing/shim, but I simply cannot reconcile it with what I understand is the problem, as being a permanent final solution. At best the V2 may be a stop-gap temporary solution for some, but for others, it seems to me, that full frame replacement is the only solution. 

It may help to read the entire thread, I know it is long, but the V2 bearings have been discussed and dissected, tried and and replaced, and with mixed results at best.


----------



## 82zman

View attachment 230714


Ok first I called my mechanic and it turns out I only have a V2 on the NDS so that's what I ordered as spares, here is the pic. As it turns out the mod is not a sleeve or cup but rather a band shrunk on to the bearing. You can see it very easily as the shim material has a much rougher surface than the shiny bearing surface. I measured the diameter with some digital calipers. The diameter with the shim is 1.4625, without 1.4570, difference is .0055


----------



## joker

just thought I'd give an update its been over 5 weeks now since my frame was sent back to trek for warranty .:mad2:


----------



## heatwave23

Well after a lot of fighting I did get my new frame. 
After I sent the letter below the following things went wrong. 
They sent the Frame ground after I asked for over night as I had a important mountain ride the following weekend. 
Missed my ride
The LBS ordered the wrong seat mask, stem that and this caused multiple delays 
Once the parts were in they ran into yet another Trek quality issue that caused another delay. The clear coat came off while removing a sticker.
This was the straw that broke the camels back and I got tired of waiting for the customer service manger to respond to my email. So I was able to get him by phone while I was sitting in the LBS parking lot about to pick up my bike. 

Went though the whole story and he claims that the issue is that some treks left the factory with the socket too big and that is why they use the V2. I assured him I did not notice the issue until ~9k miles and he stated this was not normal. However looking at this forum it looks pretty normal to me. Any way he waived the $500. 
I picked up the bike and noticed they ordered the wrong derailleur Rival not force, put the wrong inline barrel connectors and never apologized for any of the delays, they just sat there looking at me like we know you are going to take it anyway. They were right, I paid exactly what they quoted originally to swap the parts and got the hell out of there before I snapped.


----------



## heatwave23

Hello Mr Cusomer Srv Mger, 

I hope this message finds you well. Honestly I started this email last week when I thought my 1# priority was going to be resolved “that is to get back on my bike” and I still had mixed emotions on whether or not Trek handled my issue appropriately. Today after another quality control issue “the clear coat came off when the mechanic removed a sticker” causing yet another delay, my mixed emotions have turned into why on earth does Trek deserves my continued loyalty. In the past 15 years with the exception of one bike my collection has been exclusively Trek. 
That said I also know myself well enough to know when I am frustrated my writing can come across as passive aggressive, so if it does I do sincerely apologize as you are new. 

I am not happy about walking away from Trek and I hope you can help answer some questions that will help me determine whether or not I am off base or if or if Trek has lost sight of the customer service that made them great 
There is a fairly well known issue with 2008-09 Madones where the carbon fiber bottom bracket socket wears and the bearing is no longer able to stay seated snugly. The result is play in your crank. In my case it was causing an audible noise at certain wattage's. 

I researched it online and found out about this issue and Trek’s proposed V2 bearing fix. (The V2 bearing is a bearing with a shim around it to make it oversized by ~ .0055mm) Users were reporting poor results with this fix and to me it appears to be a very rudimentary fix and does nothing to prevent the issue from reoccurring. I informed my LBS of this and after weeks of having my LBS deal with Trek and “per them” waiting ~ a week for each reply from Trek, I still had the issue. In that time they had my bike for 4days and installed one V2 bearing that did not resolve the issue. Please note that they hammered in the V2 bearing in with a large rubber. At the time they claimed that the V2 bearing would not fit in the non-drive side although the bearing would fall right out if you leaned the bike over. They then told me Trek denied my frame claim and they wanted to look at the bike for a 3rd time but they could not explain what they would do to resolve the issue. They did say however if we can’t fix it this time we will be forced to send the bike to Trek. 

At this point I contacted Trek directly, took my bike to a different shop “they too agreed that it did not appear to be the appropriate fix” and was put in touch with Bryan My LBS’s outside Rep. Mr My LBS’s outside Rep was much more responsive than my LBS indicated but was adamant that Treks warranty states that Trek has the option to fix or replace and since they had the V2 fix, we had to go that route and like the LBS said otherwise the frame will need to be shipped to Trek for an engineer to look at it. This is a simple issue, the bearing isn’t supposed to fall right out and I asked why on earth do we need to have a bike shipped 1k miles and waist a highly paid engineers time to essentially measure a hole? This can be done locally with a set of digital calipers. No good answer was provided. This seemed like a nothing more than a hoop to jump though in the hopes that I wouldn’t do it. (Smart I guess because I didn’t)

I am a man of principle and wanted to fight this to the bitter end because truly do not think the issue is as black and white as Mr My LBS’s outside Rep but at the end of the day I was more of an avid cyclist and just wanted to get back on my bike ASAP. So in an effort to expedite resolution, I decided to bring $500 to the table for what I feel is the appropriate fix, a new frame. This compromise was accepted by Mr My LBS’s outside Rep.
I brought most of these points up to Mr My LBS’s outside Rep but I would like someone from Customer Service to give me their prospective. 
I have bold-ed the parts that do not appear to coincide with the V2 fix and how this product was advertised.

_________________________
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5007
In the spirit of Zero Constraints, the engineers decided that conventional bottom bracket design had no place on the new Madone. That is where the Trek’s new Precision Fit Sockets come in; the bottom bracket bearings sit directly into the “sockets” in the frame which are essentially integrated sealed bearing races built into the frame. The current standard outboard bottom bracket bearings are scrapped and the extra width is absorbed into the frame design itself. There is no need for Loctite or any other retaining method. The carbon technology is so sophisticated that testing indicates that the bearings will wear out with no adverse effects to the Precision Fit Sockets. 
_________________________

Trek stated that the Madone did not need Loctite or any other retaining method and claimed “testing indicates that the bearings will wear out with no adverse effects to the Precision Fit Sockets.” 
So, considering that this entire issue stems around the fact that the Precision Fit Sockets expanded and confirmed by the fact that Trek is attempting to use a shim to fill the space. 

1) Since the BB was advertised as not requiring a retaining method or Loctite, how is it that the shim not considered a retaining method?
2) Is it typical for Trek to implement a fix that blatantly contradicts the bikes advertising?
3) I have been to 2 shops and neither had the V2 bearing in stock however they had plenty of the standard bearing, is anything being done to address this?
4) How long will Trek make this one off V2 shims available? _________________________
Per http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/support/limited_warranty/ it states that 
This warranty does not cover:
“Installation of components, parts, or accessories not originally intended for or compatible with the bicycle as sold”
_________________________
5) Since the V2 bearing was not originally intended for nor is it compatible with Madone “as sold”, isn’t installing this part essentially voiding the warranty? 
The warrant also states “This warranty is expressly limited to the repair or replacement of a “defective item”, and said repair or replacement is the sole remedy of the warranty”
6) For this issue, the defective item is the socket in the frames bottom bracket that has expanded. The V2 bearing does not address that that part, so how can Trek say the shim repairs the “defective item”?
7) Considering that everyone’s BB will wear at different rates/shapes, does the V2 bearing come in different sizes or is this a one size fits all solution?
If you made it this far, thank you for reading it all!! So at the end of this ordeal I spent the following and as I previously stated I am not sure how I feel about it. 

$500 For a frame that should have been warranted
$95 to the LBS to swap the parts
$40 For a brazon front derailleur 
Over 2 weeks without my bike 
Almost a month of head aces and lost sleep attempting to get to a resolution that I could live with
I bought this bike because liked what I read about it, most importantly it fit me well, I liked the lifetime the warranty, I like supporting my LBS and it was made in the USA. 

Again thank you for your time and any insight you can add to this issue and I apologize for the length of the email but trust me I didn't include a lot of other things that went wrong with this process. 

Thanks, 
Heatwave23

As a side note, since I brought $500 to the table I asked if I could keep the defective fame and convert it into a rain/spare bike and was told no, it had to be recycled. Why go through the waist and expense of recycling something that can still serve a purpose? Recycling sounds great but it should be noted that the process of recycling something takes energy and generates waste. Voiding the warranty on it and allowing me turn it into rain bike does not.


----------



## joker

heatwave23 said:


> Hello Mr Cusomer Srv Mger,
> 
> I hope this message finds you well. Honestly I started this email last week when I thought my 1# priority was going to be resolved “that is to get back on my bike” and I still had mixed emotions on whether or not Trek handled my issue appropriately. Today after another quality control issue “the clear coat came off when the mechanic removed a sticker” causing yet another delay, my mixed emotions have turned into why on earth does Trek deserves my continued loyalty. In the past 15 years with the exception of one bike my collection has been exclusively Trek.
> That said I also know myself well enough to know when I am frustrated my writing can come across as passive aggressive, so if it does I do sincerely apologize as you are new.
> 
> I am not happy about walking away from Trek and I hope you can help answer some questions that will help me determine whether or not I am off base or if or if Trek has lost sight of the customer service that made them great
> There is a fairly well known issue with 2008-09 Madones where the carbon fiber bottom bracket socket wears and the bearing is no longer able to stay seated snugly. The result is play in your crank. In my case it was causing an audible noise at certain wattage's.
> 
> I researched it online and found out about this issue and Trek’s proposed V2 bearing fix. (The V2 bearing is a bearing with a shim around it to make it oversized by ~ .0055mm) Users were reporting poor results with this fix and to me it appears to be a very rudimentary fix and does nothing to prevent the issue from reoccurring. I informed my LBS of this and after weeks of having my LBS deal with Trek and “per them” waiting ~ a week for each reply from Trek, I still had the issue. In that time they had my bike for 4days and installed one V2 bearing that did not resolve the issue. Please note that they hammered in the V2 bearing in with a large rubber. At the time they claimed that the V2 bearing would not fit in the non-drive side although the bearing would fall right out if you leaned the bike over. They then told me Trek denied my frame claim and they wanted to look at the bike for a 3rd time but they could not explain what they would do to resolve the issue. They did say however if we can’t fix it this time we will be forced to send the bike to Trek.
> 
> At this point I contacted Trek directly, took my bike to a different shop “they too agreed that it did not appear to be the appropriate fix” and was put in touch with Bryan My LBS’s outside Rep. Mr My LBS’s outside Rep was much more responsive than my LBS indicated but was adamant that Treks warranty states that Trek has the option to fix or replace and since they had the V2 fix, we had to go that route and like the LBS said otherwise the frame will need to be shipped to Trek for an engineer to look at it. This is a simple issue, the bearing isn’t supposed to fall right out and I asked why on earth do we need to have a bike shipped 1k miles and waist a highly paid engineers time to essentially measure a hole? This can be done locally with a set of digital calipers. No good answer was provided. This seemed like a nothing more than a hoop to jump though in the hopes that I wouldn’t do it. (Smart I guess because I didn’t)
> 
> I am a man of principle and wanted to fight this to the bitter end because truly do not think the issue is as black and white as Mr My LBS’s outside Rep but at the end of the day I was more of an avid cyclist and just wanted to get back on my bike ASAP. So in an effort to expedite resolution, I decided to bring $500 to the table for what I feel is the appropriate fix, a new frame. This compromise was accepted by Mr My LBS’s outside Rep.
> I brought most of these points up to Mr My LBS’s outside Rep but I would like someone from Customer Service to give me their prospective.
> I have bold-ed the parts that do not appear to coincide with the V2 fix and how this product was advertised.
> 
> _________________________
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5007
> In the spirit of Zero Constraints, the engineers decided that conventional bottom bracket design had no place on the new Madone. That is where the Trek’s new Precision Fit Sockets come in; the bottom bracket bearings sit directly into the “sockets” in the frame which are essentially integrated sealed bearing races built into the frame. The current standard outboard bottom bracket bearings are scrapped and the extra width is absorbed into the frame design itself. There is no need for Loctite or any other retaining method. The carbon technology is so sophisticated that testing indicates that the bearings will wear out with no adverse effects to the Precision Fit Sockets.
> _________________________
> 
> Trek stated that the Madone did not need Loctite or any other retaining method and claimed “testing indicates that the bearings will wear out with no adverse effects to the Precision Fit Sockets.”
> So, considering that this entire issue stems around the fact that the Precision Fit Sockets expanded and confirmed by the fact that Trek is attempting to use a shim to fill the space.
> 
> 1) Since the BB was advertised as not requiring a retaining method or Loctite, how is it that the shim not considered a retaining method?
> 2) Is it typical for Trek to implement a fix that blatantly contradicts the bikes advertising?
> 3) I have been to 2 shops and neither had the V2 bearing in stock however they had plenty of the standard bearing, is anything being done to address this?
> 4) How long will Trek make this one off V2 shims available? _________________________
> Per http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/support/limited_warranty/ it states that
> This warranty does not cover:
> “Installation of components, parts, or accessories not originally intended for or compatible with the bicycle as sold”
> _________________________
> 5) Since the V2 bearing was not originally intended for nor is it compatible with Madone “as sold”, isn’t installing this part essentially voiding the warranty?
> The warrant also states “This warranty is expressly limited to the repair or replacement of a “defective item”, and said repair or replacement is the sole remedy of the warranty”
> 6) For this issue, the defective item is the socket in the frames bottom bracket that has expanded. The V2 bearing does not address that that part, so how can Trek say the shim repairs the “defective item”?
> 7) Considering that everyone’s BB will wear at different rates/shapes, does the V2 bearing come in different sizes or is this a one size fits all solution?
> If you made it this far, thank you for reading it all!! So at the end of this ordeal I spent the following and as I previously stated I am not sure how I feel about it.
> 
> $500 For a frame that should have been warranted
> $95 to the LBS to swap the parts
> $40 For a brazon front derailleur
> Over 2 weeks without my bike
> Almost a month of head aces and lost sleep attempting to get to a resolution that I could live with
> I bought this bike because liked what I read about it, most importantly it fit me well, I liked the lifetime the warranty, I like supporting my LBS and it was made in the USA.
> 
> Again thank you for your time and any insight you can add to this issue and I apologize for the length of the email but trust me I didn't include a lot of other things that went wrong with this process.
> 
> Thanks,
> Heatwave23
> 
> As a side note, since I brought $500 to the table I asked if I could keep the defective fame and convert it into a rain/spare bike and was told no, it had to be recycled. Why go through the waist and expense of recycling something that can still serve a purpose? Recycling sounds great but it should be noted that the process of recycling something takes energy and generates waste. Voiding the warranty on it and allowing me turn it into rain bike does not.


Heatwave23 I feel your pain , only i've been waiting 6 frustraiting weeks , i've told my LBS that a botch up job with a squashed in V2[a bearing with garbage shrunk wraped around the outside]is unacceptable , Trek have only offered this as their solution to date and I can do nothing but wait until I die of old age or walk away from Trek forever and start saving for a new bike ,I'm not a wealthy person and it took a long time to save money to buy this Trek, I thought they would be more hounourable with their warranty , It seems to me Trek want to BS the customers ,offer a CRAP solution in the hope people with Trek frame issues will just disapear...........if this sounds annoyed with Trek's warranty procedure 'then it is

joker :mad2: :mad2:


----------



## IRMB

joker said:


> Heatwave23 I feel your pain , only i've been waiting 6 frustraiting weeks , i've told my LBS that a botch up job with a squashed in V2[a bearing with garbage shrunk wraped around the outside]is unacceptable , Trek have only offered this as their solution to date and I can do nothing but wait until I die of old age or walk away from Trek forever and start saving for a new bike ,I'm not a wealthy person and it took a long time to save money to buy this Trek, I thought they would be more hounourable with their warranty , It seems to me Trek want to BS the customers ,offer a CRAP solution in the hope people with Trek frame issues will just disapear...........if this sounds annoyed with Trek's warranty procedure 'then it is
> 
> joker :mad2: :mad2:


what year frames are affected by this?

Are Sram drivetrains more prone to issues than Shimano?

Thanks


----------



## joker

My frames were2008. 2009. 2010 dont know about the 6 series . Ive been using dura ace.


----------



## IRMB

joker said:


> My frames were2008. 2009. 2010 dont know about the 6 series . Ive been using dura ace.


2010's had problems, too? Wish I would have read this thread before buying one!:mad2:


----------



## crowski31

This problem also exists with 2011 5 series bikes. We have had probably a dozen come through with loose bearings. They have redesigned the bb a little bit from their first batches last year though. I bought mine in August and got a DS V2 bearing about 4 months ago and just ordered the NDS V2 bearing yesterday. We will see if that solves the creaking.....Have not seen this problem on the 6 series though.


----------



## Mulvers

Hi
I was adamant the hideous cracking/creaking noise was from my bottom bracket, had bearings replaced etc.
Fault discovered......rear skewer!! Needs to very veryyy tight.
I felt the cracking in my left foot and the noise was definately coming from the botton bracket!!
Very relieved


----------



## hamsey

Mulvers,

Good to hear. I need to check mine as I too am having creaking that I think is coming from the bb after taking my wheels off.


----------



## Mulvers

I would have bet one of my limbs it was my bottom bracket, worth a try as I'd just about given up!!


----------



## hamsey

Mul,

Exactly what my problem was. Little bit of tightening and the creaking went away. Thanks for posting.


----------



## RPNSD

*Trek BB can't take it*

my first post- I'm a proud owner of a TREK madone '09 5.2 and I had a very similar experience with my BB after two years or around 15,000 miles. TREK finally replaced my frame with a new one. It took some doing but customer service came through. TREK warranty dept doesn't respond to their own shops very well, so I had to deal with their customer service directly. Question is when will they correct the long term problem. I'm a high mileage rider around 8,000 per year and I see the same issue down the road...should I buy Titanium?


----------



## heatwave23

When designed/build correctly a carbon frame can last a life time. This BB issues was caused by a bad design/manufacturing defect. Up until this issue I was a loyal Trek customer and because of how poorly they addressed this issue I have purchased another non-twain carbon bike... And yes it too has a life time warranty.


----------



## RPNSD

heatwave23 said:


> When designed/build correctly a carbon frame can last a life time. This BB issues was caused by a bad design/manufacturing defect. Up until this issue I was a loyal Trek customer and because of how poorly they addressed this issue I have purchased another non-twain carbon bike... And yes it too has a life time warranty.


Non-twain a manufacturer? I haven't seen or heard of them...


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## heatwave23

amazing I know but on top of that some companies outside of Twain weave their on carbon fiber used to build their bikes.


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## okiefo

What the hell is Twain?


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## heatwave23

ahh... that would be a failed attempt at spelling Taiwan...


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## Frogger

Anybody know if these are reliable?

TREK MADONE BOTTOM BRACKET BEARINGS


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## zac

Frogger said:


> Anybody know if these are reliable?
> 
> TREK MADONE BOTTOM BRACKET BEARINGS


As far as I know Enduro is still the bearing OEM for Trek and specifically the Madone. I keep several sets of Enduro steel bearings (both BB and HS) in my box.

As for the ceramics: IMHO a complete waste of $$; plus due to their looser seals, they tend to fail much quicker than a well sealed steel set, especially acute in wetter climates, like here in New England. Couple this with the fact that the Madone BB bearings are very exposed. You have to ask yourself whether they last X times longer than a steel set as would be hoped for since they cost X times more. I have heard some people claim they save a fraction of a watt, but I have yet to see any lab produced results to back up the claims. Of course with all expensive bike trinkets YMMV.


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## Frogger

*Not an aftermarket fix*



zac said:


> As far as I know Enduro is still the bearing OEM for Trek and specifically the Madone. I keep several sets of Enduro steel bearings (both BB and HS) in my box.
> 
> As for the ceramics: IMHO a complete waste of $$; plus due to their looser seals, they tend to fail much quicker than a well sealed steel set, especially acute in wetter climates, like here in New England. Couple this with the fact that the Madone BB bearings are very exposed. You have to ask yourself whether they last X times longer than a steel set as would be hoped for since they cost X times more. I have heard some people claim they save a fraction of a watt, but I have yet to see any lab produced results to back up the claims. Of course with all expensive bike trinkets YMMV.



I guess this is not the after market solution for loose Madone BB bearing


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## 82zman

as far as I know there is no aftermarket solution, only the V2 bearing as provided by Trek


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## Subzero47

2009 Madone5.2 got her used on EBay so no warranty. Had my non drive side bearing freeze up and spin in the cup rounding out the BB shell. Made a shim out of a coke can fixed the issue of creaking and play in the BB cup. if you find your self in the same situation give it a go.


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## joker

Hi folks just thought id give an update , my Trek madone 5.5 needs new bearings after a few weeks of replacing the bottom bracket bearings , I seem to get less than 1thousand miles out of a set of bearings before there is play again , the bearings are not a standard size you can buy anywhere they are 37mm x 24mm x 7mm only to be bought from Trek - Trek dealers, while this should not sound too much of a problem,the problem for me is that the price of the bearings are £25 per set thats roughly $50 per set that only last a few weeks before they need replaced , in 2009 I was able to buy 1 bearing race at £7 thats about $14 , the issue of the bottom bracket has tuned out to be very costly for me and I assume for any other Trek Madone owner , with my own experience I would not buy another Trek ,why can Trek not make the bottom bracket bearings more affordable as they are such a nessecary part of the bike and are not worth the money they now charge for them as they do not last ?????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## TFR

*Madone 5.9 BB Problem- watch out for bearings in carbon frames*

I have a 2011 Madone 5.9 for last 13 months gotten as warranty replacement for a carbon Lemond which brake at the drive side dropout.
Finished a hard ride with a sprint finish and put the bike away. went to go for a short easy ride later, and immediately noticed play in crank/BB.
Figured bearings had gone and brought it to dealer. They tell me BB seized up and chewed into frame, ruining frame, and TREK won't warranty. Brought it to another dealer and same thing. Manager of first shop intimated that since I had not had appropriate service done it was my fault. He did not acknowledge that there may be some responsibility for TREK and the shop to tell me that this new bearing set up required frequent maintenance. One of the mechanics (on the side) told me that recently a couple bearing manufacturers notified them that their bb bearings have short service intervals: I was told that FSA bearings have a 200 mile service interval and Shimano have a 500 mile service interval. 
The "bearing" issue has impacted the 2 riding buddies I ride with most frequently- so based on this sample of 3 for 3 with bearing problems, it is something to be on the watch for. One bud has a Ruby Pro, which she changed the crankset on in first 6 months due to bearing issues. and has changed bearings within the year, and has continued to have play in the crank.BB. Another Bud with a Supersix Evo had to replace bearings within a few months. 
So if you have BB30 or BB90 set ups (bearing press into the frame), check frequently. All you need to do is take the chain off the inside ring, so you can turn the crank without any resistance, Feel for any clicks or irregularity. check crankarms for play. Any funky feeling- service (probably change) the bearings. Good Luck


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## brentley

TFR said:


> One of the mechanics (on the side) told me that recently a couple bearing manufacturers notified them that their bb bearings have short service intervals: I was told that FSA bearings have a 200 mile service interval and Shimano have a 500 mile service interval.


200 miles? that is a big week of riding.. Are you sure it wasn't 200 hours?


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## PJ352

TFR said:


> One of the mechanics (on the side) told me that recently a couple bearing manufacturers notified them that their bb bearings have short service intervals: I was told that FSA bearings have a 200 mile service interval and Shimano have a 500 mile service interval.





brentley said:


> *200 miles? that is a big week of riding..* Are you sure it wasn't 200 hours?


Not really. Lots of recreational cyclists do metrics/ centuries along with their regular rides, so a weekly total of 200+ miles isn't uncommon. I routinely do ~170 miles/ weekly.

That aside, I think an anticipated service life of ~200 miles is pathetic. Even 200 _hours_ @ ~20 MPH equates to 4k miles - _near_ pathetic service life.

I think I'll stick with my 'old tech' Hollowtech's - in excess of 15k miles, and still spinning like new. :thumbsup:


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## joker

PJ352 said:


> Not really. Lots of recreational cyclists do metrics/ centuries along with their regular rides, so a weekly total of 200+ miles isn't uncommon. I routinely do ~170 miles/ weekly.
> 
> That aside, I think an anticipated service life of ~200 miles is pathetic. Even 200 _hours_ @ ~20 MPH equates to 4k miles - _near_ pathetic service life.
> 
> I think I'll stick with my 'old tech' Hollowtech's - in excess of 15k miles, and still spinning like new. :thumbsup:


It must be about right I dont think Igot anywhere near 4k miles out of mine before there was play


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## sibernut

*Trek BB bearing isues*

I'm ready to drop 3+ large on a Trek, looking at a 5.2. Reading up on it, & concerned . Has this issue been resolved with a certain model year? How about 6 series, them too?
If this LBS wants my cash, I'm going to have something in writing that this is under warranty, considering the documented history. Comments/advice requested! TKS!


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## gman3

Well I havent been riding as much or as hard but I have not had any more issues. After a good cleaning of the bike I did find I got some grit in the bearings so I replaced them with Boca ceramics. Now whenever I am going to clean the bike well I remove the bearings. Also as Zak has said, once youve done it once its pretty easy so i do take them out to clean and regrease every 2 k or so. Routine maintenance I guess. Should I have to no but it does seem to be working out


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## rwagen

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I have a 2011 madone 5.9 and I've noticed some play in the crank. After disassembly, I too have that the NDS bearing fits a little loosely in the BB shell.

Has anyone tried pressing in the V2 bearing themselves or this strictly a bike shop activity?

The reason I ask is that the stock bearings were shot after 3k miles. If they must be press fit in, then I can no longer replace these.


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