# Horner= bitter.



## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

http://www.velonews.com/article/81477

he seems to have a bit of a problem with JM. This is not the classiest way of going about resolving it.


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## Magsdad (Jun 29, 2005)

He's pissed and had alot of crap come his way this year. Shot off his mouth one too many times....


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## Bocephus Jones II (Oct 7, 2004)

blackhat said:


> http://www.velonews.com/article/81477
> 
> he seems to have a bit of a problem with JM. This is not the classiest way of going about resolving it.


Yeah...he sounds like he has an attitude problem.


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## heliskyr (Feb 21, 2005)

I like Chris and think he's a better rider than McCartney, though I agree that it doesn't make him look good to bash McCartney.


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## bauerb (Jan 18, 2006)

he was injured at the time of the selection. however if he was more likable, he may have gotten the nod even with the injury. its no different in the corporate world: you can be a star performer, but if you are not well liked, you will not win in many cases


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

I have ridden and talked with Chris a few times over the years. He is one of the coolest, funniest and insightful guys you would meet in the bike game. There are few who do not like him. He seldom spins his views and that can come across as caustic to those used to the smoother media characters. 

I can see both sides of the coin, I am sure the selectors had a hard time making a decision because each riders form was not clear....but I would have given Chris the benefit of the doubt that by August he would have been in great shape.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bauerb said:


> he was injured at the time of the selection. however if he was more likable, he may have gotten the nod even with the injury. its no different in the corporate world: you can be a star performer, but if you are not well liked, you will not win in many cases


It's not like his results in 2008 are great in any way though.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

About 1 year ago, McCartney soloed out of an 11-man break on a hilly parcours (not unlike the Beijing course) to win a stage of the Vuelta. I think his bonafides are established. 

I understand Horner's complaints, but to rip on McCartney is a little excessive, I think.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Of all the guys on the US team, McCartney is the one I would least expect to be deemed team leader. So what's the big deal if Horner is worried about him being there at the end? McCartney's job will be to protect and serve riders for the early part of the race. He doesn't need to be there at the end. Someone has to be the water carrier. If not McCartney, then who?


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

Well, he is obviously bitter, but I think he's justified. As he points out, it's not the top 10, it's the top five. He definitely top five caliber. It's definitely the last chance he would have had to make the Olympic team.

I think it's unfortunate that VeloNews chose to slant the article the way they did. As has been pointed out, Chris is a very gregarious guy and seems to be very clear thinking about things. He is definitely not elitist, nor does he ever appear to feel entitled to glory. He works hard to be good and is a team player. He's normally very open with VeloNews. I wonder if that might change after the way this article reads.

JR


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

He's grumpy about losing out to McCartney two olympics in a row. Horner didn't make the olympic selection in '04 - he had dominated the domestic scene for a couple years leading up to that and McCartney (who was a domestic rider with only one significant result at the time) was selected on the basis of a win in the Olympic trial road race (which was a dumb way to select a single rider.) It's not like Horner is going to have the opportunity to ride in 2012 - the automatic selections were made based on performances last year for Hincapie, Leipheimer and Zabriskie - Horner had the results last year to make you think he deserved a selection. 

This is just Horner being Horner - if this surprises you, you haven't been paying attention. He's had a chip on his shoulder for years and he doesn't filter his thoughts when talking to reporters.


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## justinb (Nov 20, 2006)

mohair_chair said:


> Of all the guys on the US team, McCartney is the one I would least expect to be deemed team leader. So what's the big deal if Horner is worried about him being there at the end? McCartney's job will be to protect and serve riders for the early part of the race. He doesn't need to be there at the end. Someone has to be the water carrier. If not McCartney, then who?



This is a good point. Who is the team leader then? Hincapie seems to be the best in 1-day classics, Leipheimer has shown good form on the hills in the past, and VandeVelde has shown he can hang very recently, but both seem to lack the snap to stay with a Valverde/Bettini/Rebellin in the uphill finishing sprint. Who would you be riding for?


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

gray8110 said:


> He's grumpy....


right, but there are better ways to communicate your desire to have been part of an olympic roster than by calling out a specific rider who you think you should replace. that was a dick move. He could have just said he thought he deserved a spot and left the reader to figure out who he'd replace. besides, when did pros start <i>really</i> giving a **** about the olympics? dig around there's a quote from landis effectively calling it a waste of his time so I'd think Horner would have bigger fish to fry.


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

I was surprised to see that Horner wasn't chosen. I can understand his disappointment, but to mouth off like this is pretty bad form.

At the end of the day though, it's all a moot point, innit? Dude's sitting at home with a broken collarbone. Given that, it's for the best that he wasn't on the team.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

cogswell23 said:


> I was surprised to see that Horner wasn't chosen. I can understand his disappointment, but to mouth off like this is pretty bad form.
> 
> At the end of the day though, it's all a moot point, innit? Dude's sitting at home with a broken collarbone. Given that, it's for the best that he wasn't on the team.



I think he's suggesting that had he been selected he would have skipped elk grove, thus sparing his collarbone or something.


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

Horner has a legitimate beef. He has never been chosen. Explain that. The selection process is corrupt. It has been for a very long time.

Horner is better at tactics than any other american racing at that level. Hincapie, on the other hand, is dumb as a post.


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## gray8110 (Dec 11, 2001)

Under ACrookedSky said:


> Horner is better at tactics than any other american racing at that level. Hincapie, on the other hand, is dumb as a post.


I'd like to see that remark qualified with some examples.


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## are (Feb 5, 2005)

Horner should have been selected and he's pissed. While calling out McCartney may not be nice, what's the point - there's only five people, so it's pretty clear which rider below his level got the spot.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

I could swear that earlier today the author of the article was listed as Neal Rogers, which surprised me as Horner had done all those video diaries with Rogers at the Tour last year. Now Rogers is just listed at the bottom of the article as 'contributing.'

Hmm . . .


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## Einstruzende (Jun 1, 2004)

I don't think it'll matter any way. My prediction is that the US squad will be a complete non-factor in the Road Race finale.


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## mkubota (Nov 27, 2005)

bauerb said:


> he was injured at the time of the selection. however if he was more likable, he may have gotten the nod even with the injury. its no different in the corporate world: you can be a star performer, but if you are not well liked, you will not win in many cases


Absolutely. The 'real' world does not award purely on talent and hard work alone. I really (want to) like Chris Horner, but it's stuff like this that makes it a bit difficult. I remember him saying the same thing about being excluded from the US Postal team, saying that "someone" may not like him despite his talent. Well, when a number of different people have the same opinion about you, maybe it's not them who are crazy.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

I dont think I would come off too "classy" if I worked my whole life and was definitely one of the best americans twice and both times some idiot just chooses to put an inferior rider in instaed. Its cycling, if you are faster, you should be selected, no artistic score here. He got screwed twice and now wont ever be an olympian. Who among us can say they would just say "oh well" thats the way the cookie crumbles. You defend yourself or you are a first class panzy. I dont remember him saing anything "bad" about Jason, just that he should be on the team instead. Hard to argue your point without mentioning names and hurting a few feelings, he was boxed in. Watching Zabrikie fall on his face just like the national championships after a few miles is weak. Heck, Zabriskie is no longer as good a TT'er as Levi and frankly im not sure he hasnt been caught by Pate and Vandevelde too. Thats what has always been great about track and field (or swimming), you win your're in. No voting. Politics suck.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bigmig19 said:


> I dont think I would come off too "classy" if I worked my whole life and was definitely one of the best americans twice and both times some idiot just chooses to put an inferior rider in instaed. Its cycling, if you are faster, you should be selected, no artistic score here. He got screwed twice and now wont ever be an olympian. Who among us can say they would just say "oh well" thats the way the cookie crumbles. You defend yourself or you are a first class panzy. I dont remember him saing anything "bad" about Jason, just that he should be on the team instead. Hard to argue your point without mentioning names and hurting a few feelings, he was boxed in. Watching Zabrikie fall on his face just like the national championships after a few miles is weak. Heck, Zabriskie is no longer as good a TT'er as Levi and frankly im not sure he hasnt been caught by Pate and Vandevelde too. Thats what has always been great about track and field (or swimming), you win your're in. No voting. Politics suck.



he wasn't "boxed in", he could have and should have kept his mouth shut. it got him nowhere-just like the rest of his rants-and made him look like a tool. 
Try this. Next time you're passed over for a promotion, write a letter to the editor of your local paper whining about how much more skilled at your trade you are than the other person and see how that works out.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

bigmig19 said:


> I dont think I would come off too "classy" if I worked my whole life and was definitely one of the best americans twice and both times some idiot just chooses to put an inferior rider in instaed. Its cycling, if you are faster, you should be selected, no artistic score here. He got screwed twice and now wont ever be an olympian. Who among us can say they would just say "oh well" thats the way the cookie crumbles. You defend yourself or you are a first class panzy. I dont remember him saing anything "bad" about Jason, just that he should be on the team instead. Hard to argue your point without mentioning names and hurting a few feelings, he was boxed in. Watching Zabrikie fall on his face just like the national championships after a few miles is weak. Heck, Zabriskie is no longer as good a TT'er as Levi and frankly im not sure he hasnt been caught by Pate and Vandevelde too. Thats what has always been great about track and field (or swimming), you win your're in. No voting. Politics suck.


I'm still looking for those great 2008 results from Horner, could someone please help me out here?


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

If passed over for a promotion I can just go elsewhere. Olympics happen maybe two or three times in an athletes competitive life, whats he going to do change his citizenship to Burma. The guy spoke up when wronged, I think there is some nobility in that. Its easy to throw stones, walk a mile, whatever. Everyone has a limit. During march madness the bad teams and the teams that got in dont complain, its the 66th best team that was better than many teams that got in that complain. I guess there is a fine line between whining and and speaking up for yourself. I think he is the latter.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

den bakker said:


> I'm still looking for those great 2008 results from Horner, could someone please help me out here?


I'm surprised the selectors of the team didn't drop someone and add Horner just for his piggy back capabilities. That could have been useful in the final climb to the finish.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

den bakker said:


> I'm still looking for those great 2008 results from Horner, could someone please help me out here?


Horner makes the point that he has shown he will bury himself for the team result, at the expense of personal results. He's riding as a top domestique, so I think the argument has merit. 

In the stage races he's ridden, the Astana top rider's results are pretty good:
ToC - First
Vuelta a Castilla y Leon - First
Vuelta Cyclista ai ZPais Vasco - First
Tour de Georgia - Third
Volga a Catalunya - Fifth
Dauphine' Libere' - Third

Plus Leipheimer's first in the Cascade Classic, with Horner riding as the second man on a two man team, and some other nice shownings in US domestic races.

JSR


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

JSR said:


> Horner makes the point that he has shown he will bury himself for the team result, at the expense of personal results.



isn't that exactly what mccartney did on saturday?


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

blackhat said:


> isn't that exactly what mccartney did on saturday?


Yes. But Horner's contention is that he should have had that privilege (his injury now making the whole point moot has not stopped this thread from thriving!).

I do have to wonder if Horner's presence might have changed the US tactics for the better (total supposition on my part, with no facts to support). 

- I thought McCartney burying himself on the flats was pointless. IMHO, he buried himself, not for his team, but for the whole peleton. He was off the back when they hit the hills.

- I didn't get the impression the US team rode with a common purpose (George payback for last year's USPRO snub by LL?). If Horner was there in the hills perhaps there would have been better cohesion.

One man's opinion.

JSR


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## cogswell23 (Aug 15, 2007)

bigmig19 said:


> Thats what has always been great about track and field (or swimming), you win your're in. No voting. Politics suck.


Tyson Gay would argue otherwise. 

Many sports have done away with the Trials method of Olympic selection in favor of taking a more globalized view of athletes' achievements. With the trials, it's like you say--you win, you're in. But if you lose, you're out too. If Levi had a freak bad day or if George had an untimely puncture, and we ended up sending Kirk O'Bee or Aaron Olsen who would really think that was a good, or fair, or accurate representation of America's best cycling talent?

In the T&F trials in Eugene this summer, Tyson Gay fell during the 200m sprint because of a cramp in his calf. It was heartbreaking to watch. Tyson is probably the best sprinter in the world right now, certainly America's best chance for a gold in the 200m. He has the past couple of seasons of results to back it up. But because he had one bad moment, he doesn't get to contest the 200m in Beijing, the US loses its best opportunity in that event, and the world is deprived of a chance to see a 200m sprint with the best and most deserving athletes contesting it.

There was no conspiracy against Horner. The selection committee had a tough decision to make, and they made it.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

So let me get this right: because Contador won stage races, Horner should be on the US olympic team? 
Has McCartney shown he is not willing to bury himself at the expense of personal results? 





JSR said:


> Horner makes the point that he has shown he will bury himself for the team result, at the expense of personal results. He's riding as a top domestique, so I think the argument has merit.
> 
> In the stage races he's ridden, the Astana top rider's results are pretty good:
> ToC - First
> ...


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## The Weasel (Jul 20, 2006)

bauerb said:


> he was injured at the time of the selection. however if he was more likable, he may have gotten the nod even with the injury. its no different in the corporate world: you can be a star performer, but if you are not well liked, you will not win in many cases


So, didn't Zabriskie sustain a bad injury at the Giro just before the selection? And just before Horner's? I think he has a legit gripe.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

The Weasel said:


> So, didn't Zabriskie sustain a bad injury at the Giro just before the selection? And just before Horner's? I think he has a legit gripe.


may 11th, he had time to heal. besides, afaik everyone likes zman. he doesn't have the "baggage" that Horner seems to. nor does JM, I'd add. it's an easy choice isn't it? especially so now that he's running around calling the selection committee "idiots".


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## bigpinkt (Jul 20, 2006)

blackhat said:


> may 11th, he had time to heal. besides, afaik everyone likes zman. he doesn't have the "baggage" that Horner seems to. nor does JM, I'd add. it's an easy choice isn't it? especially so now that he's running around calling the selection committee "idiots".


I think Z had an automatic entry


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

bigpinkt said:


> I think Z had an automatic entry


I don't think that's the case. Levi had the automatic, the others were discretionary

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/blog/usa-cycling-announces-2008-us-olympic-team/


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

cogswell23 said:


> Tyson Gay would argue otherwise.
> 
> Many sports have done away with the Trials method of Olympic selection in favor of taking a more globalized view of athletes' achievements. With the trials, it's like you say--you win, you're in. But if you lose, you're out too. If Levi had a freak bad day or if George had an untimely puncture, and we ended up sending Kirk O'Bee or Aaron Olsen who would really think that was a good, or fair, or accurate representation of America's best cycling talent?
> 
> In the T&F trials in Eugene this summer, Tyson Gay fell during the 200m sprint because of a cramp in his calf. It was heartbreaking to watch. Tyson is probably the best sprinter in the world right now, certainly America's best chance for a gold in the 200m. He has the past couple of seasons of results to back it up. But because he had one bad moment, he doesn't get to contest the 200m in Beijing, the US loses its best opportunity in that event, and the world is deprived of a chance to see a 200m sprint with the best and most deserving athletes contesting it.


That is the best possible spin on the situation. The downside is that there develops a set of insiders and outsiders. The insiders are connected by coaches, previous participation on the national team, sponsors, friendships, et cetera. This is not restricted to cycling; all sports that have discretionary selection for the Olympics are plagued with complaints by the outsiders about the fairness of the selection.



cogswell23 said:


> There was no conspiracy against Horner. The selection committee had a tough decision to make, and they made it.


How do you explain Horner's previous non-selections? At one time he dominated the domestic scene and he was still left off the team. That is his main complaint. He has never been selected even though he surely deserved to go to the Olympics at least once.


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## blackhat (Jan 2, 2003)

if horner really believed he were wronged and could prove it he could have done what Becky Quinn apparently did, and taken USAC to arbitration. She lost, he would have too, but it would have been a more legitimate venue for his complaint. 

http://www.velonews.com/article/81948


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## Under ACrookedSky (Nov 8, 2005)

blackhat said:


> if horner really believed he were wronged and could prove it he could have done what Becky Quinn apparently did, and taken USAC to arbitration. She lost, he would have too, but it would have been a more legitimate venue for his complaint.
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/article/81948


How do you propose Horner prove his case? The article just starts to hint at the problems inherent in discretionary selection.

USA Cycling is dominated by friends, sponsors, and business associates of Lance Armstrong. Armstrong never liked Horner. That is the reason why Horner was never hired by Postal/Disco. It is not unreasonable to assume that Armstrong's vindictiveness extended to having his friends screw Horner in the Olympic selections, but good luck proving it.

The system has always been corrupt. All the insiders scratch each others' backs.

Going public is really the only option Horner has.


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## Lumbergh (Aug 19, 2005)

He may be a great guy when he's not talking to the media. Seems like most times he's interviewed, he's whining about something or other. Evidently, he still doesn't get it. It's never about him, always someone else. It's sad, really.

Maybe going from being the most dominant rider in the US to being a decent rider in Europe has been too much for his ego to handle?


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

blackhat said:


> if horner really believed he were wronged and could prove it he could have done what Becky Quinn apparently did, and taken USAC to arbitration. She lost, he would have too, but it would have been a more legitimate venue for his complaint.
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/article/81948


But see this way hes gets more than twice the press for his issue and has to waste no money smart really. Im not saying hes right or wrong but why waste the money battling and organization that you know you won't win against and now that in all likely hood Horner is to old to worry about the next Olympics he can pretty much say what he wants.


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## bigmig19 (Jun 27, 2008)

Mcartney is definitely not as "decent" as Horner in Europe.


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