# Suntour Groups...help?



## zeytin

I have found mentions of Suntour but I cannot find a list of the levels. Can anyone tell me what the older low, middle, and high end Suntour groups are called?
Thanks
Zeytin


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## merckxman

*Many details here....*

....but you'll have to sort through it:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/page35.htm


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## zeytin

*Thanks that helps*

no message


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## the bull

*Thanks!*

Just learned at lot more. 
Sunset for Shimano?.....Ha! I guess not!


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## FlatBroke

"superbe pro" was their top of the line stuff...I really liked the way it looked and felt
"sprint" was their middle of the road, I think. 
Seems like they had a plain old "superbe" also
what else was there?
I miss my suntour


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## moschika

FlatBroke said:


> what else was there?
> I miss my suntour


from the link they say:
From the top they went; Superbe Pro, Superbe, Cyclone Mk II, Cyclone, BL, ARx, Vx, AR, Seven, Volante, Honor, GT, and Mighty Click.

and in catalogue from 1980 there are listings for VGT, Cyclone GT, Compe-V, Vx GT.


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## tube_ee

moschika said:


> from the link they say:
> From the top they went; Superbe Pro, Superbe, Cyclone Mk II, Cyclone, BL, ARx, Vx, AR, Seven, Volante, Honor, GT, and Mighty Click.
> 
> and in catalogue from 1980 there are listings for VGT, Cyclone GT, Compe-V, Vx GT.



Superbe and Superbe Pro never coexisted, as far as I know. Either one was the top road group when it was made. The second rank was Cyclone or Sprint, depending on the year. BL was basically Cyclone with some blue plastic added to it. (BL = Blue Line). GT denotes the "touring" version of a given group, hence "Cyclone GT", the finest friction-shifting touing derailleur ever made. There was a Superbe Tech group for a couple of years, 1983 - 84, IIRC. Top-end touring stuff.

Suntour collecting is a hobby all to itself, and quite worthwhile. Older Suntour parts tend to work better than anything else from their era. The Cyclone and Superbe rear derailluers are now legendary for their shifting. Better than anything else in the world at the time. Ditto the 1986 Suprbe Pro and Sprint "Power Ratchet" shift levers. The only levers I've ever liked better are the Simplex / Mavic "teardrop" retrofrictions. The Suntours are clearly better built, and shift almost as well.

--Shannon


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## froze

I hate Shamano for what they did to Suntour; Suntour invented the slant parallelogram rear derailleur which was the best derailleur design ever invented and still used today, then Shamano stole the technology, then used their size to run Suntour into the ground with a marketing campaign that Suntour (which was a much smaller company) could not afford to keep up with.

But the order of Suntour models were from best to cheap and oldest to newest was: Superbe (there were no plain models as one poster mentioned), the Superbe Pro, Superbe, SuperbeTech ran from 80 to 83, the name changed in 84 to XC comp, pro, sport, 9000, XCD6000 series which takes it to the end of 90. 

Then the midend units starting in 75 was the Cyclone GT, VT, VGT, Road VGT, AG, BL, BL GT, Cyclone GT II, Mountech, Mountech GTL, LePree GT, AG Tech GTL, Cyclone 7000, Sprint GT 5000, GT, GX, XCD 4000 series, 3000 series, XCE 4000 series, XCM 3000 series, X100, Chroma CR00, and the XC Ltd, XL00. 

Then the low end stuff started in 75 with the Seven GT, GT, Mighty Click GT, AR GT, ARX GT, AG, AG Tech, AG Tech GTL, Trimec S, Alpine, SVX GT, 3000 GX, Seven GT, Honor GT, XCE, XCM, XCT, and the XT at the end of 90.

The above info was from memory...NOT, this was gleamed off of: www.firstflightbikes.com/suntour.htm 

I currently ride on Superbe and this stuff now has over 140,000 miles and still works great, I also rode on Cyclone GT and VGT stuff and both of those were just as good as the Superbe in shifting, but weighed a tad more and the finish was not as polished. All the mid line Suntour stuff outshifted both in speed and smoothness, better then any other component manufactures top end stuff!!! They also were sanctioned for racing when Shamano was not during the 70's through the 80's. Consumer Reports rated the Suntour VGT (mid line stuff) to be the best buy over anything else on the market by any other manufacture regardless of price for cost, quality, shifting smoothness, and accuracy of shift back; this article was in either 81 or 82.


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## FlatBroke

froze said:


> SuperbeTech ran from 80 to 83, the name changed in 84 to XC comp, pro, sport, 9000, XCD6000 series which takes it to the end of 90.


their MTB line?


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## froze

I'm not into MTB so I can't answer that, but for awhile Rivendell was selling (I think they still do) XC Pro Hubs that were road hubs, and they said they were the best hub you could buy except for the Phil Woods...whatever that means!


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## OES

*If there's any derailleur out there better than a*



froze said:


> I I currently ride on Superbe and this stuff now has over 140,000 miles and still works great, I also rode on Cyclone GT and VGT stuff and both of those were just as good as the Superbe in shifting, but weighed a tad more and the finish was not as polished. All the mid line Suntour stuff outshifted both in speed and smoothness, better then any other component manufactures top end stuff!!! .


Cyclone Mark II (in performance AND durability) I've yet to meet it.


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## bicyclerepairman

*I couldn't find fault with the original SunTour Cyclone GT; also*

missing in the mix of front deraileurs mentioned above is the SunTour Spirt, a step down from the Compe-V.....


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## froze

bicyclerepairman said:


> missing in the mix of front deraileurs mentioned above is the SunTour Spirt, a step down from the Compe-V.....


I had not heard of the Spirit, are you sure your not thinking of the Sprint? There were some models that were the same as another model, such as the "Blue Line" which was the same thing as the VGT (if my memory serves me correctly, if not it was the same as one of the mid end models); the Blue Line was just a component system that had blue inserts instead of black on the derailluers shell.


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## sn69

*Still got me one in the box, serving as a ready spare*

for the eventual and unlikely day that my Superbe shytes the bed. Great stuff.


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## bicyclerepairman

*Rest assured, I am not thinking of either name you mention.*

I'll spell it slowly this time: S_P_I_R_T. Not Sprint, and certainly not Spirit. Nor Spirito. I've only seen a front derailleur with this model name, and it was available mid 1970's. It cost @ a dollar less than the Compe-V.....it was basically the same....just a little plainer.



froze said:


> I had not heard of the Spirit, are you sure your not thinking of the Sprint? There were some models that were the same as another model, such as the "Blue Line" which was the same thing as the VGT (if my memory serves me correctly, if not it was the same as one of the mid end models); the Blue Line was just a component system that had blue inserts instead of black on the derailluers shell.


FYI, I think the Blue Line was the same as the Cyclone, not the VGT. I currently have all 3 on bikes:

Original Cyclone: 1979 Windsor Super Carrera
Blue Line: 1985 Univega Gran Tourismo
VGT: 1977 Raleigh Grand Prix

plus a new XC (late 1980's) sitting in a drawer.


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## froze

bicyclerepairman said:


> I'll spell it slowly this time: S_P_I_R_T. Not Sprint, and certainly not Spirit. Nor Spirito. I've only seen a front derailleur with this model name, and it was available mid 1970's. It cost @ a dollar less than the Compe-V.....it was basically the same....just a little plainer.
> 
> OK OK OK, geez, I thought it was mispelled, don't peel my head like a onion. I did do a fast web search and found the SPIRT derailleur model and found that that name was the name used for Suntours very first front derailleur in 1966, and was still producing them up until 78.


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## tube_ee

bicyclerepairman said:


> I'll spell it slowly this time: S_P_I_R_T. Not Sprint, and certainly not Spirit. Nor Spirito. I've only seen a front derailleur with this model name, and it was available mid 1970's. It cost @ a dollar less than the Compe-V.....it was basically the same....just a little plainer.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, I think the Blue Line was the same as the Cyclone, not the VGT.


Yep, BL = Cyclone with blue plastic bits instead of black plastic bits. I have one each of BL / GT and Cyclone GT, and other than the center of the outer parallelogram, they're identical. Well, except for the rust on the steel bits on the Cyclone. I've also got an NIB 1980 Superbe short cage and a lightly used Superbe Tech long cage. I've seem to aquire every Suntour part I lay eyes on. Maybe that's because every upper end Suntour part I've seen just rocks

I've wanted a "SPIRT" ever since I realized that that's what it said. What do ya wanna bet that was supposed to be "SPIRIT", and somebody screwed up the die, and by the time somebody who read English noticed, it was too late? Kind of like bicycling's version of the "Upside Down Airplane" stamp. 

Better yet, not only was the name screwed up, but they shift backwards, too. There's this perverse dude who lives in my head that wants to combine a SPIRT front derailleur and a rapid-rise XTR rear to make the completely bass-ackwards drivetrain. When he's had a few drinks he thinks about building it with left-hand drive, so youl'd have to pedal backwards to go forward. Would it then shift the right way around?

--Shannon


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## bicyclerepairman

*Thanks for the post....I learned something today.....*

That makes the Spirt historically significant......now I wish I'd kept mine.


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## froze

I've also got an NIB 1980 Superbe short cage and a lightly used Superbe Tech long cage. I've seem to aquire every Suntour part I lay eyes on. Maybe that's because every upper end Suntour part I've seen just rocks--Shannon[/QUOTE said:


> Welcome to the club! About 15 years ago when I heard Suntour was shutting down, I went to my LBS at the time and bought the same Superbe Tech medium cage derailluer, the same Superbe front derailleur and the same Superbe pedals that were on my bike at that time. The thought was that those components were the most likely to break and I wanted to be able to replace them should that occur. I still have all of those components unused in their boxes waiting to be put into service some day. I wish I would have bought the brakes set, BB/crank set, headset, shifters and seat post then I would have had the entire group in their boxes.


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## roadie33

froze said:


> I hate Shamano for what they did to Suntour; Suntour invented the slant parallelogram rear derailleur which was the best derailleur design ever invented and still used today, then Shamano stole the technology, then used their size to run Suntour into the ground with a marketing campaign that Suntour (which was a much smaller company) could not afford to keep up with.
> 
> But the order of Suntour models were from best to cheap and oldest to newest was: Superbe (there were no plain models as one poster mentioned), the Superbe Pro, Superbe, SuperbeTech ran from 80 to 83, the name changed in 84 to XC comp, pro, sport, 9000, XCD6000 series which takes it to the end of 90.
> 
> Then the midend units starting in 75 was the Cyclone GT, VT, VGT, Road VGT, AG, BL, BL GT, Cyclone GT II, Mountech, Mountech GTL, LePree GT, AG Tech GTL, Cyclone 7000, Sprint GT 5000, GT, GX, XCD 4000 series, 3000 series, XCE 4000 series, XCM 3000 series, X100, Chroma CR00, and the XC Ltd, XL00.
> 
> 
> Then the low end stuff started in 75 with the Seven GT, GT, Mighty Click GT, AR GT, ARX GT, AG, AG Tech, AG Tech GTL, Trimec S, Alpine, SVX GT, 3000 GX, Seven GT, Honor GT, XCE, XCM, XCT, and the XT at the end of 90.
> 
> The above info was from memory...NOT, this was gleamed off of: www.firstflightbikes.com/suntour.htm
> 
> I currently ride on Superbe and this stuff now has over 140,000 miles and still works great, I also rode on Cyclone GT and VGT stuff and both of those were just as good as the Superbe in shifting, but weighed a tad more and the finish was not as polished. All the mid line Suntour stuff outshifted both in speed and smoothness, better then any other component manufactures top end stuff!!! They also were sanctioned for racing when Shamano was not during the 70's through the 80's. Consumer Reports rated the Suntour VGT (mid line stuff) to be the best buy over anything else on the market by any other manufacture regardless of price for cost, quality, shifting smoothness, and accuracy of shift back; this article was in either 81 or 82.





How good were the LePree components? What would be the Shimano equivalent today?


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## bicyclerepairman

*There is no Shimano equivalent to the LePree rear deraileur,*



roadie33 said:


> How good were the LePree components? What would be the Shimano equivalent today?


as it featured a cage with 3 pulleys. Kind of unusual. There was a 2 pulley version (flavor?), probably equal to Shimano 105


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## froze

The LePree was one of Suntours mid price units built around 1985-86. Anything that Suntour made in the mid price range was still better then anything Campy or Shimano put out as far as shifting accuracy and smoothness and reliability.

The LePree I remember was the version introduced in 1985 on Nishiki models; the LePree was only made in 85 and maybe 86; It did have three pulleys to achieve a 42T of chain wrap. It had been developed in conjunction with Nishiki and as a result, Nishiki had one year exclusive availability on the three pulley version. However, there were both 2 and 3 pulley versions of the LePree available at the same time. Nishiki's exclusive, one year deal was only for the 3 pulley version. SunTour also offered three pulley versions of other derailleurs beside the LePree.

You may not have a Nishiki but LePree was available to Nishiki dealers for parts thus some of those may have gotten out to the general market for a replacement derailleur.


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## roadie33

froze said:


> The LePree was one of Suntours mid price units built around 1985-86. Anything that Suntour made in the mid price range was still better then anything Campy or Shimano put out as far as shifting accuracy and smoothness and reliability.
> 
> The LePree I remember was the version introduced in 1985 on Nishiki models; the LePree was only made in 85 and maybe 86; It did have three pulleys to achieve a 42T of chain wrap. It had been developed in conjunction with Nishiki and as a result, Nishiki had one year exclusive availability on the three pulley version. However, there were both 2 and 3 pulley versions of the LePree available at the same time. Nishiki's exclusive, one year deal was only for the 3 pulley version. SunTour also offered three pulley versions of other derailleurs beside the LePree.
> 
> You may not have a Nishiki but LePree was available to Nishiki dealers for parts thus some of those may have gotten out to the general market for a replacement derailleur.


so what was/is better, the 2 or 3 pulley version? Is there really a difference? How can I tell what kind I have?


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## froze

roadie33 said:


> so what was/is better, the 2 or 3 pulley version? Is there really a difference? How can I tell what kind I have?


If the 3 wheel version had proven to be better then all RD's would have gone to 3 wheels long before now or at least touring and MTB RD's because of the extra long chain wrap, but the design did not prove out. You can tell by looking at your rear derailleur and instead of 2 small usually black with square teeth wheels there would be 3. Please see this as an example of the 3 wheel RD: https://buggytexas.com/images/belair4.jpg And here is a pic of the 2 wheel:
https://www14.plala.or.jp/numatacycle/00010100.P1010078.JPG Big difference between the two.


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## steelisreal2

*No Sunset for Suntour........*

Suntour component prices have ramped up over recent years, due to demand and parts are getting very hard to track down. 
Suntour Superbe Pro was truely unique, outstanding quality in materials and finish. Derailleur:- sealed pulley bearings. 
Brake Calipers:- hidden springs, thrust bearings, fine-tuning toe-in and super smooth to use. 

Suntour invented the slant parallelogram rear derailleur in 1964 and Maeda obtained worldwide patents on the design. For the next 20 years, Suntour produced technically superior derailleurs. Suntour's slant parallelogram broke the image of Japanese components as being cheap copies of European components.

Suntour had good patent attorneys and they vigorously defended the slant parallelogram design. All of the major derailleur makers incorporated slant parallelograms once the patent expired in 1984.









Suntour Superbe Pro Rear Derailleur (Model RD-SB00-SS8)









Suntour Sprint 9000 Rear Derailleur (Model RD-SP10-SSB)

Their simple and elegant styling, outstanding quality in materials and finish, extremely precise design and manufacturing tolerances and race-proven efficiency assure optimum performance and looks for any custom frame. 

Velobase has extensive information on the various Suntour road components:- 
https://velobase.com/ListComponents.aspx?SearchID=9b4ab946-ee65-4be1-abe6-cc97c2f61bd1

Flickr has a Suntour Group with a number of photographs of Suntour Road, Track, MTB and BMX components:-
https://www.flickr.com/groups/suntour/pool/


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## brewster

It's really a shame. Superbe Pro was grossly underrated and just never caught on as being cool, which unfortunately is how many people choose components.


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## froze

brewster said:


> It's really a shame. Superbe Pro was grossly underrated and just never caught on as being cool, which unfortunately is how many people choose components.


Not only is that how people choose components, but I use to get snide remarks and snubbed when I raced because I wasn't racing on Italian gear!! I wondered what they were thinking when I would beat them? I had a one owner/operator LBS turn me on to Suntour claiming it was better then anything else out there...he was right.


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## Fai Mao

I have a complete Superbe Pro group, except for freewheel on my Battaglin.

Beautiful stuff. 

I would think that sine the early 1990's versions would shift at least 8 cogs, maybe 9 that someone might even think about producing a copy of it.


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## Nielly

Fai Mao said:


> I have a complete Superbe Pro group, except for freewheel on my Battaglin.
> 
> Beautiful stuff.
> 
> I would think that sine the early 1990's versions would shift at least 8 cogs, maybe 9 that someone might even think about producing a copy of it.


The only thing Suntour I ever had was a Winner or Winner Pro freewheel which I loved. Shifted great and was real smooth and quiet. Eventually I wore it out as I remember trying to complete a century ride in South Jersey with a bad chain skip. Alas, it's down in the original box in the garage and I don't think replacement cogs are so easy to come by anymore.


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## froze

Fai Mao said:


> I have a complete Superbe Pro group, except for freewheel on my Battaglin.
> 
> Beautiful stuff.
> .


You and I are in the same league. Everything on my 84 Trek 660 is Superbe except for the freewheel which is Shimano. Even my seatpost and headset are Superbe. When I bought the group and bike I substituted the seatpost for a TTT which was lighter and the headset was a Stronglight from the factory which was also lighter and kept the Superbe's in their boxes because I was a weight weenie and I was racing the bike at the time. Then about 10 or 12 years ago I put Superbe seatpost and headset on the bike mostly because the TTT seatpost broke and the Stronglight headset was black and I hate black components and I wasn't racing anymore so the extra few grams didn't bother me.


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