# Warranty refused for misaligned Lynskey frame



## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

*Warranty refused for misaligned Lynskey frame RESOLVED*

I bought a Lynskey frame in August 2014, and got around to building it early 2015.

I looked forwarded to building my dream bike and couldn’t wait to see and feel the experience of titanium. It definitely absorbs the road buzz and feels like a magic carpet ride. I noticed all of this after my first ride, which was a slow and mechanical check ride, to make sure everything was tight and in alignment (handlebars, saddle etc.)

It was when I got to the hills and tried to do a hard ride on the flats I noticed there was a problem. Every descent, as I built up speed to around 35km/h (21mph) the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didn’t want to crash.

I then spent some time assessing the wheels. Hubs were tight, lock nuts screwed in properly, wheels true (laterally and radially) and perfectly dished. I checked the tyres, perfect with no bulge or deformities. I had 25’s on so I put 28’s on (which I was intended to do anyway, it’s why I bought the frame), no difference obviously. Schwalbe One Tubeless. Great grippy tyres in the dry.

I went for rides on the flats, I try to build up speed again but the bike felt unstable. I almost crashed on a roundabout, a same roundabout I could easily navigate at speed and have done so numerous times in the past on other bikes. As I entered the roundabout, a quick turn left and an attempt to turn right just didn’t go, the bike wouldn’t lean. I had to slam on the brakes and come to a complete stop. Thank god for 5800 brakes and swiss stop brake pads. I then resumed the ride and had to keep it around 30km/h. Any faster and it felt unstable again. I even tried to sprint out of the saddle but I couldn’t even move to the hoods, it felt even worse.

So I made a checklist, did extensive research on internet forums, google searches for anything that might be causing it (and this is exactly what I wrote in my initial email).

- Both wheels are true (both radially and laterally) and properly dished. Hubs are tight and recently serviced.
- Headset is tight and has no play whatsoever. The frame came pre-milled within acceptable range (measured digitally) for the cups. They were installed using the correct tool without issue (perfect fit).
- Fork is without defect (dropouts aligned) and high quality (top of the range Ritchey fork). No cracks/damage or abnormal flex.
- Saddle is correctly installed in the rails to torque specifications.
- Bottom bracket and cranks are installed correctly to torque specifications.
- Wheels are correctly installed in dropouts (all the way in) and QR tightened well.

I then discovered that it could be possible that the frame was out of alignment. So I used the string method to measure the dropouts to the head tube. I was careful to ensure the string exited the dropout (in Lynskey’s case wright style hooded dropouts) at the middle point. This would be about where the wheel clamps into the dropout. For arguments sake, the dropouts did have to be spread a little for the wheel to slide in. I just put this down as a trait of the frame (this becomes important later).

I used the thinnest piece of string I could find for highest accuracy and I made sure it was tied with even tension with no sag.

It’s a crude method but I understood it to be accurate for what it is measuring, and that is the alignment at the point of the seat post (not at the dropouts, which would be measure greater). Especially if its done consistently and properly. 

I then confirmed the frame was misaligned and believe it to be the sole cause of the major instability I was experiencing. It was just too dangerous to ride.





I wrote a detailed email to the bike shop I bought it from (interstate so I had to pay $50 shipping initially). They then requested a photo of the bike assembled and the underside of the BB showing the serial number). They also asked who built the bike (irrelevant) and what wheels I was using. I advised they were commercially built wheels and they were perfect. I used them on my previous bikes, and still use them to this very day.

After taking a few weeks to send the bike back (at my expense, nearly $60) as I considered using a cheaper courier to save $$ (in the end I decided it wasn’t worth it). I didn’t hear anything from the bike shop.

So I sent a follow up email, and got no reply, nearly a week passed and I decided to email Don @ Lynskey asking if he’d received a warranty claim. I thought it would be fairly straightforward and there’s a ton of positives out there for his customer service, people assured me they I would be well looked after, and that Lynskey really stand behind their products.

I received the first reply which (irrelevant parts edited out) read:



[email protected] said:


> 1cm seems like quite a lot, but certainly not saying impossible.
> 
> Once we can see the photos documenting what you are describing, then yes, we’ll get it back from ---- and do a re-alignment.
> 
> I’m going to assume that you’ve not hit a large pothole, or crashed in any way to cause the alignment issue? We would not warrant alignment as any hard knock in the rear of any bicycle could cause alignment issues. No frame leaves our factory except in perfect alignment.


- Now I’m not an expert in titanium but it seemed strange that it would be suggested a pothole could knock a frame out of alignment. I would expect that the wheels would give way first (bent rim, broken spokes) and have me flying over the handlebars. I explained this and it was noted. Additional research suggests that titanium is very difficult to cold set, so I imagine it is fairly improbable. I can’t see how a blunt knock would cause lateral bend on a rear triangle. I’ll leave this for people to discuss.

- I also don’t really know about their methods of manufacture and how QC is handled, but I found it odd that a rather bold claim about 100% reliability. It’s a human process and people can and do make mistakes in any profession.

I received another reply from Don after I talked about improbabilty of pothole damage and confusion about his last comments.



[email protected] said:


> Help me understand exactly what we are seeing in the photos with the measuring tape. Noted on no crashing or pot holing. My last comment was that we align every frame individually and they leave our factory perfect. Sometimes possibly shipping might have something to do with the final outcome, if there was damage during transit.


- I didn’t have any scratches or apparent damage during transit apart from one of the decals slightly broken. It was disappointing not to have it perfect from the beginning but I let it slide, its no big deal. It was strange that the box it came in was of another company, and no not litespeed, some Chinese steel frame manufacturer, possibly the frame builder friend (keep reading).

In the morning I got a reply for the bike shop (hurrah! a reply!). But what was attached were photos that were out of focus, unclear and did not use a ruler. I noticed these inaccuracies and documented them in my follow up email. I have to be honest, I was quite annoyed that it was suggested ‘the frame is in perfect alignment’, when the measurements were done incorrectly and the evidence provided was not clear. I questioned why a ruler wasn’t used (I’ve never received an answer to this question), and asked to retake the measurements with a proper tool (as I assumed would happen anyway).



Bike shop said:


> Sorry for my late reply, I just about to send your frame to my frame builder friend to check the frame alignment. He have a surface table to do the job properly.
> 
> Out of curiosity, I use the old school method to check your frame alignment, I found the frame have perfect alignment. ( please see attached photos )
> 
> ...


He was about to send the frame to a ‘frame builder friend’, but out of curiosity decided to take his own measurements this way, with the string coming out of the inside of the dropouts, and with a brake pad spacer as the measuring device. I questioned this in my reply. and this was the answer I got.



Bike shop said:


> The yellow block is a Shimano Disc brake tools, it is 30mm in length. It just happen to fill into the gap without interfere the string. It work like a feeler gauge.
> 
> Shimano Disc Brake Tools - $6.95 - Bike Parts 360
> 
> ...


He also suggested that my ‘extreme setback position’ was the cause, and linked me to an opinion piece he wrote 4 years ago. I read some of this and was shocked, so many bold and unsubstantiated claims about setback position with no acknowledgement anywhere about riders with long femurs. I dismissed it as ridiculous. It should be of note that the bike builder on the Lynskey site sells seat posts with 25mm setback as an option.











Now it’s hard to tell clearly from the photos, but on one of them the brake pad holder is definitely fitting flush with the string (and possibly manipulating it), and it’s being held with his hand in mid air. The second photo it still clearly shows a gap on one side (despite lack of focus), and its questionable on the other side if there is a gap as well.

As this method requires precision, I wasn’t convinced. A millimetre here and there seems to be taken away from the true measurement, and combined with the out of focus photos it appeared he was trying to deceive me. 

He also used the style of the dropouts as acceptable way of measuring from the inside (and I disagree with this as I later recalled that the dropouts had to be spread to fit the wheel, it’s not clear in the photo that they are consistent, and of course the angle is reduced again to the head tube. The measurable misalignment is going to diminish even further).

The bike shop sent me a few google search links and claimed that measuring from the inside is more accurate because of the style of dropout. I explained that this is reducing the angle of the string even further and combined with the brake block and unclear photos, this can’t be accurate. The more you reduce the angle the measurable distance is going to also be reduced (I mean, basic trigonometry), if we could take the measurements where the string exits right at the head tube you probably wouldn’t get anywhere. The seatpost is less than half way from the dropouts. Where I mention above in this post that I had to spread the dropouts a little to put the wheel in, would indicate that my method of wrapping the string around the hood of the dropouts would be closer to the actual point in which the hub sits in the dropouts.



Bike shop said:


> The reason I measure from the inside of the dropout because it is an Wright Dropout. the thickness of the shoulder of the dropout may not be constant. It is an irrelevant point to use as an yard stick.
> 
> https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...a=X&ei=lBlTVfyJHMTKmwW49YDwDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
> 
> ...


I received a reply from Don which I have to be honest, was quite shocking.



[email protected] said:


> Thanks for taking the time to go thru this exercise. I agree with your findings based on the research and testing that you did here evidenced by the photos.
> 
> I’m going to suggest that you have someone look into the dishing of your rear wheel.


Now I’ve sent a number of followup emails to the bike shop and Don, one of which confirms my rear wheel being perfectly dished (with photos and offer to post a video), and the other is detailing the reasons behind the inaccuracies of the measurements taken. I mean, clearly a brake block holder is not an accurate measuring device, it should end right there.

I have to say I made the measurements in good faith using this method just to demonstrate that the frame is out of alignment, and possibly by quite a lot (and this supports the major instability I am experiencing). I wanted to make the bike shop’s job easier but instead it seems its been turned around and used against me using a few little differences, out of focus photos and basically an overall attempt to deceive me.

I’m now asking for the alignment to be measured with a proper tool, but am just being ignored by all parties. In hindsight I should have done this before I sent the frame back, so I have irrefutable proof. I guess I was naive to assume that a bike shop with over 20 years experience would have the proper tool for the job.

I’ll even mention that the decal on on side of the down tube was damaged when I received the frame (I know this is a common problem, and a new method has been adopted), and the box that the frame came in was of another brand. Suggesting that the frame was taken out of the original box and placed in this one. There’s potential for speculation on the reasons for this right there.

Now all I want is the frame repaired, replaced or my money refunded. I dreamed of getting more titanium bikes, even getting into MTB’ing with a Lynskey frame, but this is starting to go sour for me, not only with this frame, but also after sales support from the bike shop (the only dealer for Lynskey in Australia), and to be honest, I don’t understand Don’s replies and acknowledgement of the bike shop’s measurements.

Well, I’ll leave it at that as it’s a long initial post and I’m happy to follow it up and answer any further questions.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

At first I was going to ask you why you're dealing with a shop that can't even speak English properly. I see that you're in Australia though and maybe that's the norm there? The "Bike Shop" sounds like someone that never went to school.

This string thing... that's not how you check a frame alignment. Yes, there is a specific tool, but you can also make a tool yourself, check out youtube. RJthebikeguy probably has something that can help you out.

Hopefully you've figured it out by now but you need to not deal with that "bike shop" again and you need to get your frame away from them. As for Don, well you need to show him actual proof. You need to get a correct frame alignment tool, not a piece of string, and prove it to them if the frame is off. If you can't do that you're wasting their time and your time and money.

You sound like you're fairly smart and want to handle this properly. So... handle it properly. Get the proper tool, use it properly, present the evidence to Don directly.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> This string thing... that's not how you check a frame alignment. Yes, there is a specific tool, but you can also make a tool yourself, check out youtube. RJthebikeguy probably has something that can help you out.


Except I'd be criticised for not using a 'professional tool', and that my tool is not correctly made.



> You need to get a correct frame alignment tool, not a piece of string, and prove it to them if the frame is off. If you can't do that you're wasting their time and your time and money.
> 
> You sound like you're fairly smart and want to handle this properly. So... handle it properly. Get the proper tool, use it properly, present the evidence to Don directly.


Yep, except why do *-I-* have to do this? I considered buying the Park Tool F.A.G-2 http://www.parktool.com/product/frame-alignment-gauge-***-2

But for one measurement? Bike tools (and just about everything) are expensive here. Ordering online, if I bundle with a bigger order from a german website I know makes it about $65. then I still have to send it back to where I bought it from (another $60). If I took that route I'd be up for an additional $125 plus the original $50 to get it to me in the first place.

I mean, I bought it from a bike shop (official and approved Lynskey dealer), I used a method that is reasonably accurate for its intended purpose if done correctly, and I received confirmation from them (with the photos attached I sent in the original email) to send it to them for inspection. I think the question should be asked is why are *they* using this method?

The way it works I believe is I am responsible for getting to frame to the shop, they take care of the rest. It's the law here (and I imagine the same in the US). We have good laws protecting consumers, but I really don't want to go that route.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

You have to buy the tool because you're dealing with a shop that... well isn't very good. You could and probably should find a shop you can get to that is professional. You'll have to have the proper shop measure the frame correctly, and if it's off help you prove a case against the dealer. If you are right and the frame is off, I would push hard to have them dropped as a dealer for the brand. They shouldn't be selling bikes if they can't even check a frame alignment.

Don is going to side with the dealer, especially if it's in his interest and you can't prove any different. You'll have to do so yourself or find someone that can. You'll have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's off and that will be by using the correct tool. 
The suggestion for making your own tool is for you, to give you something better to go off of yourself instead of the string. For a warranty case you should have the right tool and proper photographs. Also really should be coming from a dealer or at least a shop.

The way I see it is that you're in sort of a pickle. The authorized dealer is a hack. It happens here too. There are hack shops that are authorized dealers for real high end bikes and they hack the crap out of them. Unfortunately Lynskey seems to have chosen poorly here. Best bet is to find a proper precise shop to take over for you at your expense. I doubt you can force the dealer to buy tools and do things correctly.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

MMsRepBike said:


> You have to buy the tool because you're dealing with a shop that... well isn't very good. You could and probably should find a shop you can get to that is professional. You'll have to have the proper shop measure the frame correctly, and if it's off help you prove a case against the dealer. If you are right and the frame is off, I would push hard to have them dropped as a dealer for the brand. They shouldn't be selling bikes if they can't even check a frame alignment.


Kind of hard when I'm 800km away.



> Don is going to side with the dealer, especially if it's in his interest and you can't prove any different.


It's in his interest not to support and stand by his products, and request a proper measurement? Kind of contrary to what I'm hearing all over the place. 



> You'll have to do so yourself or find someone that can. You'll have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's off and that will be by using the correct tool.
> The suggestion for making your own tool is for you, to give you something better to go off of yourself instead of the string. For a warranty case you should have the right tool and proper photographs. Also really should be coming from a dealer or at least a shop.
> 
> The way I see it is that you're in sort of a pickle. The authorized dealer is a hack. It happens here too. There are hack shops that are authorized dealers for real high end bikes and they hack the crap out of them. Unfortunately Lynskey seems to have chosen poorly here. Best bet is to find a proper precise shop to take over for you at your expense. I doubt you can force the dealer to buy tools and do things correctly.


Read the quotes from his emails carefully. He speaks of a frame builder friend, and then is satisfied with his measurements. Take a look at the photos, and read my comments. I know it's a long post.

Problem is (even if I did take your advice, and believe me I've already considered this option) how much is this all going to cost me? and it could all be for nothing as the last reply from Don indicates it's a final decision.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

I did. He's a hack. He says he's going to bring it to some buddy that has a table and then says it's fine and he needs to bill you... in the same quote. It doesn't take careful reading to see what's going on here.

I don't know what it's going to cost. It's going to cost the time and effort to find a shop worth dealing with first. Then it will cost whatever it costs to have them properly measure the frame. It may end there. They may be able to prove to you that it's perfect. Or they may agree with you. If they agree with you there may be more expense. 

There can be no final decision, your frame hasn't even been measured properly yet. There's no real evidence in either direction. First you need to know for sure what's going on and then you can go from there. A good shop shouldn't charge too much to just check a frame, it will only take a few minutes and they'll already have that park tool.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

Problem is, he probably would've done this all along. Even with measurements from a Park Tool or whatever. 

My measurements at least indicate there's a problem. It doesn't matter by how much, and if he actually measured his string *with a tape measure* he would see that too. It's a deliberate attempt to deceive with blurry photos. It's fraud.

It's looking like its going to have to go further, because I'm not paying for the frame to get sent back to me, only to have to send it back (of which return will never be approved - so that won't even happen), even with proper measurements.

I guess the disappointment for me is, not just the bike shop, but the fact the frame is so misaligned and dangerous.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

I can feel your pain. In 82 I bought an Allez frame brand new and it had frame alignment issues. It pulled severely to the right. The bike shop and Specialized refused to repair, replace or refund on the frame. I wound up taking the frame to a custom frame shop and they repaired the bike for me at a fair price and I rode the bike for a long time after that. A lifetime Specialized boycott is still on-going. 

I suppose I would take the Titanium frame to a custom shop and have them look at it and then use their data to form your complaint. Ultimately if Lynsky is not going to honor the warranty then you will have to get it repaired at a frame shop that can work with titanium. Or you could file a lawsuit I suppose if that makes since to you. Still you will need the data from a Professional to support your claim.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I'm with MMsRepBike - the shop you're dealing with is a hack. You need to get your frame back from them, and then stay far, far away.

Now for your frame issue. Your real problem is not showing that the frame is out of alignment, it is showing that even if it is out of alignment that it is a Lynskey defect. As Don noted in his first reply to you, that could have happened in the course of shipping or handling by others. The Lynskey warranty wouldn't cover that - just a defect in workmanship or materials.

The fact that you bought the bike in Australia makes it clear that it went through a long chain of changing custody between Lynskey and you, so it will be near impossible to prove it was a defective frame. Without that, you have no warranty claim against Lynskey.

The reason you're getting pushback from Don is because, as he notes, part of their QC/QA in production is a frame alignment inspection of every finished frame before shipping. The reason you're getting pushback from the dealer could well be because they realize that they could be on the hook for a new frame if it could be established that they were the ones who damaged the frame, or were negligent is selling you a damaged frame.

My suggestion to you is get your frame back, whatever it takes, and forget this as as a manufactureres warranty issue. Then find a competent frame builder who can check and realign the frame as necessary. FInally, chalk this up to experience- the perils of buying a frame and finishing the bike without trialing while still in a bike shop's possession. It's a risk you take.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> I'm with MMsRepBike - the shop you're dealing with is a hack. You need to get your frame back from them, and then stay far, far away.
> 
> Now for your frame issue. Your real problem is not showing that the frame is out of alignment, it is showing that even if it is out of alignment that it is a Lynskey defect. As Don noted in his first reply to you, that could have happened in the course of shipping or handling by others. The Lynskey warranty wouldn't cover that - just a defect in workmanship or materials.
> 
> ...


This may sound a little cold but it's very true. Don ships frames and knows someone put a TV on it in the belly of a cargo jet. It happens. I don't doubt for a second that they inspected that frame and it was aligned when they shipped it. LBS is clearly sub-par. But all they did was sell you a frame in a box right? If they built it up and you rode it, and it was off, they'd likely eat the frame and then they fight it out with Lynskey. A lot of time passed from when Lynskey shipped that frame to when it bounced back as a complaint. There are a lot of reasons for push-back adding up. 

That said, if I were Don I'd pay the OPs shipping and fix the frame and eat the shipping again and send it back. If you ship across the world you need to deal with this stuff. Even when it's not your fault. It's called customer service. A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people, like a handgun with a crushed barrel. This thread would keep me from buying a product from a manufacturer that leaves a dangerous product on the market knowingly. Sometimes when you make and sell things you have to eat a loss. Life is hard.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

battler2 said:


> It's looking like its going to have to go further, because I'm not paying for the frame to get sent back to me, only to have to send it back


Dealer sounds dirty.

If he did send it to this framebuilder why is there no picture of it the surface table with alignment gauges showing the misalignment? That would be far more convincing than the pictures he did send you.

I don't believe the dealer's story. Also, unless you asked him to send it for an alignment check you owe him nothing. He acknowledges that he did it on his own initiative, not at your request.

I bet this was a dud frame he had sitting around and he unloaded it on you. Check with Lynskey to see if they have any record that it had been previously sold and returned. 

Get the frame back even if you have to pay for shipping, then take him to court. Sue for cost of frame and all shipping.


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

PBL450 said:


> A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people


I have the Campagnolo H tool and take them with me if I am looking to buy a frame or bicycle.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> ...
> That said, if I were Don I'd pay the OPs shipping and fix the frame and eat the shipping again and send it back. If you ship across the world you need to deal with this stuff. Even when it's not your fault. It's called customer service. A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people, like a handgun with a crushed barrel. This thread would keep me from buying a product from a manufacturer that leaves a dangerous product on the market knowingly. Sometimes when you make and sell things you have to eat a loss. Life is hard.


If I were Don I would identify a reputable frame builder in Australia who could do the alignment check and straighten if necessary (shipping back and forth halfway around the world just risks even more damage). I would then tell the dealer to ship the frame to that local frame guy , and pay the bill to do so. I would pay the frame guy to do the work as needed. If the frame does prove to be out of alignment I would pay the shipping to return the frame to the customer. But, if it isn't then I'd leave it to the customer to pay the charges. I would then lose that dealer, and look for another to replace him., and have that new dealer help the OP determine his problem and get it resolved.

It's about trying to help a customer out of a bad situation because of a lousy dealer who sounds incompetent. The problem the OP is confronted with is not likely a Lynskey issue, it's either someone in the shipping chain or that dealer. The dealer should be helping the customer, and clearly he isn't. Game over for the dealer.

But I'm not Don.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

The real question is this: Competent Ti craftsman aligns it on the table on the OP's dime. Good, quick, fixes it.

2 years later it cracks and a warranty gets refused with legal grounds that it had to be aligned due to being tweaked in shipping or accident etc. Now that the trail exists....


Me: I'd have it aligned locally and ride it into the ground or sell it off. If riding it pisses you off too much with the taste in your mouth, loose it. Loose being the appropriate term quite possibly...

I sold a new bike with a paint issue that occurred 1 week into ownership. Trek said no, I said fook you and sold it. Not at too great a loos luckily. But the next $30k over 20 years did not get spent in guess what brand. And they will never see another dime of mine not even on used stuff unless totally zero sum priced.

Good Luck!


I will say that IMO the likelihood it left Lynskey misaligned is VERY VERY unlikely.

I will also say [after read a post after mine] perhaps a CC payment to the LBS/dealer that had the burden of the shipping damage having sold it to you and a dispute is an option as well...


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

I had my own dealings with Lynskey, Don in particular and I found him to be perfectly agreeable -- as long as you were agreeing with him and if you had any other ideas you were wrong.
I ended up having to file a dispute with my credit card to get them to take their frame back (and the frame hadn't even been built up or ridden). 100% guaranteed my ass. Lynskey sucks, if you're in Australia Baum would've been the way to go.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> I had my own dealings with Lynskey, Don in particular and I found him to be perfectly agreeable -- as long as you were agreeing with him and if you had any other ideas you were wrong.


Well put, and I know how that conversation goes...



> I ended up having to file a dispute with my credit card to get them to take their frame back (and the frame hadn't even been built up or ridden). 100% guaranteed my ass. Lynskey sucks, if you're in Australia Baum would've been the way to go.



What was it that you deemed an issue that Don did not, if I may ask??


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> Dealer sounds dirty.
> 
> If he did send it to this framebuilder ....


I just had a picture in my head of...

Monkeys with baseball bats, was that an old AAMCO commercial maybe?

A mind is a terrible thing [certainly in my case]


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

You're gonna have to eat this frame.

Pay to get the frame shipped back to you.

Ship it to a competent Australian framebuilder and ask them to CHECK alignment, not to align it. See if they'll provide photos and specs. Pay for this service.

Then see if Lynskey will cooperate. Tell them the local guy has been miserable about providing service. As for a reference from Lynskey for a framebuilder or another shop.

Does the bike ride fine no-handed? That's the litmus test for alignment; the numbers don't mean squat if you can't feel it. If the bike shimmies at higher speeds is another indicator.

Your description of the "on ice" feeling leads me to think you have the wrong fork rake on the bike. I've experienced this "on ice" feeling with a bike that had a high rake/low trail. Decreasing the fork rake solved the problem. Your solution may be that simple.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

If the alignment is very off, enough to cause handling problems, wouldn't it turn different in one direction than the other?

Unsteady handling like you describe sounds like the wrong fork rake, too tight or loose headset, frame geometry or weight distribution.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

OP what state are you in? What state / city is the dealer in? 

You bought the bike sight unseen online right? What warranty did the dealer give you?

What fork are you running? And it's not irrelevant, who did the build?

Do you have a pic of the bike fully built up?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Peter P. said:


> Does the bike ride fine no-handed? That's the litmus test for alignment; the numbers don't mean squat if you can't feel it. *If the bike shimmies at higher speeds is another indicator*.


Quoting Jobst Brandt, _"Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as is often claimed."_

The physics behind shimmy are explained well in this Technical Q&A column from Lennard Zinn


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

ibericb said:


> I'm with MMsRepBike - the shop you're dealing with is a hack. You need to get your frame back from them, and then stay far, far away.
> 
> Now for your frame issue. Your real problem is not showing that the frame is out of alignment, it is showing that even if it is out of alignment that it is a Lynskey defect. As Don noted in his first reply to you, that could have happened in the course of shipping or handling by others. The Lynskey warranty wouldn't cover that - just a defect in workmanship or materials.
> 
> ...


I don't really need to do all this, Australian consumer law says otherwise. It's the onus of the retailer to repair, replace or refund. In that I guess, is that they should be able to provide credible proof that the frame DOESN'T need repair, and as you can clearly see from the photos and his replies, that's not happening. I also have the right to seek repairs from someone and have him pay the bill. What's perplexing to me is Don's final reply.

Frame damaged in shipment or welded crooked? This is the question, I'm not stupid, I know the drill. Make a mistake, DENY DENY DENY. Put the blame on someone else it's far easier.

If it's been damaged in shipment, it's the bike shops responsibility. But as I mentioned, the cold setting of titanium, according to my research, is very difficult, if not impossible. Please discuss. The frame arrived to me and the box was not damaged. It was a different box than expected as I mentioned. It sat upright on my couch for months as I gathered parts. Basically on a fluffy pillow.



PBL450 said:


> This may sound a little cold but it's very true. Don ships frames and knows someone put a TV on it in the belly of a cargo jet. It happens. I don't doubt for a second that they inspected that frame and it was aligned when they shipped it. LBS is clearly sub-par. But all they did was sell you a frame in a box right? If they built it up and you rode it, and it was off, they'd likely eat the frame and then they fight it out with Lynskey. A lot of time passed from when Lynskey shipped that frame to when it bounced back as a complaint. There are a lot of reasons for push-back adding up.
> 
> That said, if I were Don I'd pay the OPs shipping and fix the frame and eat the shipping again and send it back. If you ship across the world you need to deal with this stuff. Even when it's not your fault. It's called customer service. A misaligned frame out in the world that you made is dangerous to people, like a handgun with a crushed barrel. This thread would keep me from buying a product from a manufacturer that leaves a dangerous product on the market knowingly. Sometimes when you make and sell things you have to eat a loss. Life is hard.


If they built it up and I rode off and came back, they'd probably still put the blame on me somehow. I think enough people have established how this bike shop operates.

Your last paragraph hit the nail on the head for me. At least he could request proper measurements with a tool.



Cinelli 82220 said:


> Dealer sounds dirty.
> 
> If he did send it to this framebuilder why is there no picture of it the surface table with alignment gauges showing the misalignment? That would be far more convincing than the pictures he did send you.
> 
> ...


Were we separated at birth? Except I don't really want to have to do the last part. I want to resolve this with help from Don (as his reputation seems to be glowing) but emails are now being ignored. I'd love to know if he's got a record of warranty claim attempts. I would REALLY LOVE TO KNOW THIS.



ibericb said:


> If I were Don I would identify a reputable frame builder in Australia who could do the alignment check and straighten if necessary (shipping back and forth halfway around the world just risks even more damage). I would then tell the dealer to ship the frame to that local frame guy , and pay the bill to do so. I would pay the frame guy to do the work as needed. If the frame does prove to be out of alignment I would pay the shipping to return the frame to the customer. But, if it isn't then I'd leave it to the customer to pay the charges. I would then lose that dealer, and look for another to replace him., and have that new dealer help the OP determine his problem and get it resolved.
> 
> It's about trying to help a customer out of a bad situation because of a lousy dealer who sounds incompetent. The problem the OP is confronted with is not likely a Lynskey issue, it's either someone in the shipping chain or that dealer. The dealer should be helping the customer, and clearly he isn't. Game over for the dealer.
> 
> But I'm not Don.


No you're not Don, you're a genius in customer service. I love you.



robt57 said:


> The real question is this: Competent Ti craftsman aligns it on the table on the OP's dime. Good, quick, fixes it.
> 
> 2 years later it cracks and a warranty gets refused with legal grounds that it had to be aligned due to being tweaked in shipping or accident etc. Now that the trail exists....
> 
> ...


You've identified why I don't want to pay for repairs and go at this independently.

I wish I could confidently say that it left Lynskey in perfect alignment, but it's one of their cheapest frames. If you're tasked with building as many frames as you can for a cheaper price and it takes valuable time to check something and if you keep doing it results in overtime and less time with your family at the end of the day, are you going to bother? If it was welded out of alignment by accident, how much extra time is it to fix it? I'm speculating here, but see my point?



Peter P. said:


> Does the bike ride fine no-handed? That's the litmus test for alignment; the numbers don't mean squat if you can't feel it. If the bike shimmies at higher speeds is another indicator.
> 
> Your description of the "on ice" feeling leads me to think you have the wrong fork rake on the bike. I've experienced this "on ice" feeling with a bike that had a high rake/low trail. Decreasing the fork rake solved the problem. Your solution may be that simple.


It's too hard to tell, as I think what you're describing is a degree of misalignment that is very very bad. I recall trying to take a photo with my phone no hands and never being able to do it. Except riding no hands isn't something I like to do, there's too much that can go wrong and stupid crashes result in injury and time of my bike. Not worth it IMO.

The fork rake would be a valid argument, if it was different to what they spec with this frame in the bike builder. I considered this very carefully, and the rake I have should make leaning and handling -easier- and not harder. It's not twitchy steering, I love twitchey steering, it means I have more control with less input at the bars. 

I don't think this would cause such instability. You're completely ignoring my measurements and the ambiguity of his as well at the same time.



ericm979 said:


> If the alignment is very off, enough to cause handling problems, wouldn't it turn different in one direction than the other?
> 
> Unsteady handling like you describe sounds like the wrong fork rake, too tight or loose headset, frame geometry or weight distribution.


- Headset is absolutely perfect, Cane Creek 110, no play whatsoever.
- Frame geometry is nearly the same as previous bike, longer stays though. I mean, it's a generic offering it shouldn't be this unstable. It's not a custom geo that's been designed specifically for me in violation of standard design practices.
- Weight distribution? Please. Next I'm going to need to explain that I know how to ride a bike. For the record, I took it on quite a few descents and played with this, same problem every time.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> If I were Don I would identify a reputable frame builder in Australia who could do the alignment check and straighten if necessary (shipping back and forth halfway around the world just risks even more damage). I would then tell the dealer to ship the frame to that local frame guy , and pay the bill to do so. I would pay the frame guy to do the work as needed. If the frame does prove to be out of alignment I would pay the shipping to return the frame to the customer. But, if it isn't then I'd leave it to the customer to pay the charges. I would then lose that dealer, and look for another to replace him., and have that new dealer help the OP determine his problem and get it resolved.
> 
> It's about trying to help a customer out of a bad situation because of a lousy dealer who sounds incompetent. The problem the OP is confronted with is not likely a Lynskey issue, it's either someone in the shipping chain or that dealer. The dealer should be helping the customer, and clearly he isn't. Game over for the dealer.
> 
> But I'm not Don.


Yeah... I see your point. But if I was Remington and a customer reported misfires in a shotgun they bought from a retailer I'd want that weapon back to ME the manufacturer. I don't give a rats ass who broke it. I made it. It's dangerous. I want it off the market and out of harms way. I don't care if it's the fork. I get a safety concern I want action on that IMMEDIATELY! I wouldn't buy a Lynskey product on a bet after this thread. And I fully realize the OP might well be a hack and screwed up a dozen aspects of the "home" build. I wouldn't home build a bike. I'm not qualified. He/she likely isn't either. That's not my point... The fact that Lynskey cares more about where the damage might have occurred or who caused it, rather than being concerned about getting a suspicious product out of circulation is enough for me to check off the "you'd have to be nuts to buy a frame from these guys" box. They don't seem to care about putting riders on the ground regardless of whose fault it is. F them. Maybe that's why I'm a social worker and not a Captiain of Industry. Because being a Captian of Industry requires a contempt for human safety. At least in the case of Lynskey frames.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

You can certainly bend Ti tubing used in bike frames enough to lead to the kind of distortion you have reported, and it's not all that difficult. Given the number of hands it passed through between TN, USA and you, there surely were many opportunities to damage the bike enroute. If you still have the box you might consider taking some pics, including any markings or shipping info, sendng those to Don, and asking if the box is consistent with their packaging for shipment to Austraila.

From everything noted here, your gripe is with the bike shop not Lynskey, unless you can somehow demonstrate that there was a manufacturing defect. So far I haven't seen anything to comes close to suggesting there is one. Do whatever you need to do to under Australian law to force the dealer's hand. As far as who has to prove or establish what, I have no clue how Australian law works. In the U.S. this would be a very gray area. In the U.S. if a shipper damages the frame in transit, then typically it would be up to the recipient (the bike shop) to note the damage and file the claim with the shipper. Often reputable retailers will take that on for a customer. Apparently that's not going to happen with this dealer.

I wish you luck.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

PBL450 said:


> And I fully realize the OP might well be a hack and screwed up a dozen aspects of the "home" build. I wouldn't home build a bike. I'm not qualified. He/she likely isn't either.


I knew this would come up at some point or another, and this is clearly what is being insinuated by the bike shop AND Don at Lynskey.

Now this is getting insulting. I made it clear to the bike shop, that when I built the bike I used all proper tools, torque specs and anti-seize in the build process.

I mean, *I'm not a freakin moron*. I know how to build a bike, it's really not that difficult, years of DIY practice and maintenance (full strip downs and rebuilds, bi-annually) has taught me so much. I remember looking at a bike and not even being able to even label the parts. If there's a bike mechanic out there that thinks he knows everything then I don't even want to acknowledge him.

Please, give me some examples of the dozen parts I've screwed up that *would actually cause this problem.*

It's an unregulated industry, and there are no 'qualifications' you can seek to be a bike mechanic AFAIK, at least not in Australia.

Because I don't built 10 bikes a day, kid's bikes, beach cruisers, all day long does that make my build any less reliable? I took my time and care with the build, and it was annoying to have to strip it down and send it back so soon. So there's that.

I've heard of a so called 'professional mechanics' failing to set limit screws correctly and having a semi-pro cyclist crash uphill because the chain fell of under high load.

I do my own bike fits too, because it's not an exact science. I've heard of someone going to *three* different bike fitters and getting different measurements every time. I mean, WTF?

Otherwise, the rest of your post is a big :thumbsup:


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> Yeah... I see your point. But if I was Remington .


So if you were Remington, and a customer reported a misfiring shotgun to a dealer, the dealer, whom you trust as your representative and agent, says after examining the gun that there is nothing wrong with it, would you still want the shotgun back?

The issue here is Lynskey's faith in the dealer vs. the customer. In this case I would take over and have it sent to someone else I trust in an attempt to resolve the dispute. If the owner is found to be right, then it's goodbye to the former dealer, and no cost to the customer, at all. In fact, I'd send him a new frame along with some free stuff for his trouble as soon as possible. 

This is about resolving a dispute between a customer and a dealer. From what the OP has shared , which is completely one-sided but I've taken at face value, the dealer is a hack. The problem is Lynskey probably doesn't see it that way, at least not yet.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

ibericb said:


> The issue here is Lynskey's faith in the dealer vs. the customer. In this case I would take over and have it sent to someone else I trust in an attempt to resolve the dispute. If the owner is found to be right, then it's goodbye to the former dealer, and no cost to the customer, at all. In fact, I'd send him a new frame along with some free stuff for his trouble as soon as possible.
> 
> This is about resolving a dispute between a customer and a dealer. From what the OP has shared , which is completely one-sided but I've taken at face value, the dealer is a hack. The problem is Lynskey probably doesn't see it that way, at least not yet.


The problem I have here is, as you point out, that the faith is in some blurry, out of focus measurements, and even in the out of focus photos there's clearly a gap between "measuring device" ie. brake block. I've repeatedly asked (cc'd to Don) why a metric ruler hasn't been used, and it's been ignored. I'm now asking for the measurements to be done correctly, but I am being ignored.

It's not completely one sided, as I've posted all quotes of all of his emails. I'm not hiding anything. This is all I've been told.

If I'm wrong, and a Park Tool gauge shows it's in perfect alignment. I'll pay the shipping to get the frame back to me. It's that simple. (But I do need irrefutable proof that it's the same frame I sent them and it's being used correctly). ie. video

I'd love to have faith in the part about 'goodbye to the dealer'. In fact, I'd like to see it happen. Chances? Buckley's.

Reality is, I've got no assurance from Lynskey that even if I do take proper measurements, or get another bike shop to do it because:



[email protected] said:


> I agree with your findings based on the research and testing that you did here evidenced by the photos.


Despite having provided a detailed technical explanation explaining why the measurements are inaccurate. Repeatedly.

and @ibericb, If you're affiliated with Lynskey, please let me know.


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

Flags at every step. Frame not in factory box, frame decal(s) scratched/ruined, Dealer be like Huh? Don, well, Don, and you want someone else to do the work. Get a tool to properly measure, or, ship to Lynskey, or find a better shop. This ain't rocket science. At the very least, confirm your serial number with Lynskey.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

battler2 said:


> ...
> and @ibericb, If you're affiliated with Lynskey, please let me know.


I have no affiliation with Lynskey, nor have I ever had any affiliation with Lynskey. I'm not even a Lynskey fan. I'm a retired old fart who never worked for any bicyle OEM, or affiliated company.

You're in a dispute with a dealer who is a complete hack. If the dealer were competent they wouldn't have pulled out the string in the first place. That's a home garage shop tool, not one of a competent bike shop assessing frame alignment of a new frame they sold. That's the clear evidence of the dealer's incompetence. 

You need to recover your frame , and then pursue your rights under the Australian law you cite. If everything you've stated is accurate, none of which I have doubted, then from what you said previously you should be able to recover all the cost you incur resolving it elsewhere from the errant dealer.

The issue with Lynskey is that they haven't been willing to referee the dispute between you and the dealer. Whether that's their role or not is questionable and debatable. You could take your bike to another dealer, or a third party. Lynskey offered to check the frame if you return it to them, and I suspect if it needs adjustment they would do that for you gratis. However, unless it can be shown somehow that any misalignment is a result of a manufacturing defect, then there isn't a warranty issue. The liability for frame damage most likely rests somewhere other than with Lynskey. 

The question you need to focus on is what are you going to do now that the dealer has concluded there is nothing wrong with the frame? Set this dealer aside, and get your frame back, whatever that takes. Then take the next step toward resolving the problem, whatever it is. Keep meticulous records, because if you are proven correct, you may have recourse for recovery of damages that you incur. If it's a manufacturing defect a competent frame builder should be able to determine that. If not, then just pay to get it fixed, and move on.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Might not help but make sure you are dealing with the owner of the bike shop not some loser her today gone tomorrow employee who just so happens to read your email.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> So if you were Remington, and a customer reported a misfiring shotgun to a dealer, the dealer, whom you trust as your representative and agent, says after examining the gun that there is nothing wrong with it, would you still want the shotgun back?


Yes. I want people to have full and complete confidence in my brand. Especially if it's failure can result in injury or death.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

battler2 said:


> I knew this would come up at some point or another, and this is clearly what is being insinuated by the bike shop AND Don at Lynskey.
> 
> Now this is getting insulting. I made it clear to the bike shop, that when I built the bike I used all proper tools, torque specs and anti-seize in the build process.
> 
> ...


Shade tree isn't a professional. And yes, building and repairing bikes all day, all kinds of bikes, makes you a professional bike mechanic, at least in my opinion. You might be the best mechanic in the world, mind you, I don't know... But sheer experience and manufacturers training are very different than stripping your own bike. IMO. I have 30 years of experience and a Masters Degree in Social Work. I do that 50+ hours a week. My experience is a continuum of progressive responsibility. I'm in charge of stuff. People, money... I am accountable. And I am qualified. Someone that does volunteer work at a social service agency on the weekends is NOT. They may be great at what they are doing and they are probably a lovely person, I deal with volunteers all the time... But they aren't a professional. That doesn't mean you screwed up the build, it just leaves the door open for increased suspicion. I'm sure you did a great job on it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> Yes. I want people to have full and complete confidence in my brand. Especially if it's failure can result in injury or death.


I'm sure Remington and Lynskey both share that same belief. That doesn't mean they rollover for every claim by a customer of product defect. They investigate each and every one. In doing that they typically have to rely on their distributors and dealers who should be competent to assess if their is a problem or not. What is clear in this case is the dealer involved is at least incompetent, and further he may be protecting his own interest in disputing the claim of a damaged frame. What's unsettling is Lynskey either hasn't figured that out, or if they have they've done nothing about it.

If the OP wants to pursue a manufacturers defect, then he should get the frame and ship it back to Lynskey since they woud have to agree with that anyway.. Don stated in his initial reply that they would readily inspect the frame. But the greater likelihood (by far) is the frame was damaged at some point after it left Lynskey. Even Remington isn't going to accept responsibility for a gun damaged or abused by another, and that's most likely what happened in this situation (maybe the incopetent dealer) if the OP's assessment is correct.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> I'm sure Remington and Lynskey both share that same belief. That doesn't mean they rollover for every claim by a customer of product defect. They investigate each and every one. In doing that they typically have to rely on their distributors and dealers who should be competent to assess if their is a problem or not. What is clear in this case is the dealer involved is at least incompetent, and further he may be protecting his own interest in disputing the claim of a damaged frame. What's unsettling is Lynskey either hasn't figured that out, or if they have they've done nothing about it.
> 
> If the OP wants to pursue a manufacturers defect, then he should get the frame and ship it back to Lynskey since they woud have to agree with that anyway.. Don stated in his initial reply that they would readily inspect the frame. But the greater likelihood (by far) is the frame was damaged at some point after it left Lynskey. Even Remington isn't going to accept responsibility for a gun damaged or abused by another, and that's most likely what happened in this situation (maybe the incopetent dealer) if the OP's assessment is correct.


I don't disagree... Excellent points. But Google "Smith and Wesson warranty" and you will see a ton of what I would expect. Granted, a handgun isn't a bicycle frame in Australia. But the sense I get from Lynskey is that they are more concerned with who is at fault or where their product got damaged than the fact that a defective and potentially dangerous Lynskey frame is out in the world, and they know about it, and they are dicking around instead of removing it from public life. I have high standards, I'm aware of that...


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

All of this and then there are companies with real customer service and companies with Don Erwin handling things. Case in point-- over the winter I was cleaning off my bike (carbon frame) when I noticed a crack near the BB/chainstay joint. I took some pictures and sent it off to Neilpryde and the dealer I purchased it through (I'm in NY, they're in AZ), company is based in Australia/Hong Kong. 
Within hours I had an email asking for more pictures to show the bike was not involved in a crash (it wasn't) and then it took about 2 days for everything to go back and forth with the shop having to file the warranty claim. Once everything was through, the company told me to destroy the frameset (cut it in half) and send a picture and they would ship me a replacement frame. 
They did this so I wouldn't have to waste time and money shipping the old frame to the dealer. Once they saw that they dispatched a new frame to me and it arrived from Hong Kong in 3 days.

Then there's Lynskey...

If I was the OP I'd find a competent frame builder as local as possible and have them inspect it and then go back. Good look trying to deal with anyone else above Don. It won't happen, they're not interested. I tried pretty hard.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

PBL450 said:


> Shade tree isn't a professional. And yes, building and repairing bikes all day, all kinds of bikes, makes you a professional bike mechanic, at least in my opinion. You might be the best mechanic in the world, mind you, I don't know... But sheer experience and manufacturers training are very different than stripping your own bike. IMO. I have 30 years of experience and a Masters Degree in Social Work. I do that 50+ hours a week. My experience is a continuum of progressive responsibility. I'm in charge of stuff. People, money... I am accountable. And I am qualified. Someone that does volunteer work at a social service agency on the weekends is NOT. They may be great at what they are doing and they are probably a lovely person, I deal with volunteers all the time... But they aren't a professional. That doesn't mean you screwed up the build, it just leaves the door open for increased suspicion. I'm sure you did a great job on it.


This is where I disagree, and it's something that defines Australia. Over here we really don't care about qualifications and supposed experience, as long as you can do the job you're hired.

However, the key point (which you mention), is some industries are regulated by academic qualifications and mandatory certifications and others are not. That's why I'd also call you a professional social worker and volunteers, just volunteers.

Bike mechanics are not. Why? Because it's not that complicated. It doesn't need regulation because there's not a lot to bugger up. Would you want to take your wheel into the shop every time you needed to change a tire? How about adjust your brakes, by aligned pads or rotating the cable adjuster? Some need help, some need don't. I don't. However, give me a bike with disc brakes, I'd say: I'll get back to you. Because I'm not there yet. Maybe some 'professional' bike mechanics wouldn't touch an e-bike either.



ibericb said:


> I'm sure Remington and Lynskey both share that same belief. That doesn't mean they rollover for every claim by a customer of product defect. They investigate each and every one. In doing that they typically have to rely on their distributors and dealers who should be competent to assess if their is a problem or not. What is clear in this case is the dealer involved is at least incompetent, and further he may be protecting his own interest in disputing the claim of a damaged frame. What's unsettling is Lynskey either hasn't figured that out, or if they have they've done nothing about it.
> 
> If the OP wants to pursue a manufacturers defect, then he should get the frame and ship it back to Lynskey since they woud have to agree with that anyway.. Don stated in his initial reply that they would readily inspect the frame. But the greater likelihood (by far) is the frame was damaged at some point after it left Lynskey. Even Remington isn't going to accept responsibility for a gun damaged or abused by another, and that's most likely what happened in this situation (maybe the incopetent dealer) if the OP's assessment is correct.


I hope I don't have to go that way, and I don't think I will because as I mentioned before, consumer law protects me from needing to do that. I'll give him another few days, send another email requesting proper measurements. If I get no reply by the following week I'll have to contact consumer affairs in Victoria.

I'll weigh up other options after that.

I don't know if it was damaged in transit TBH. There wasn't any physical damage or scratches on the frame (just the decal, which could have been sloppy application). Very close visual inspection indicated one of the stays was welded at a slightly different angle, but I'd need to take it to a frame builder to confirm (probably by measurements at the welds). I have good eyes but maybe not THAT good.

Wouldn't mind finding out the Lynskey hierarchy TBH (If I need it), any other emails of people that work there? CEO? edit: Thanks @CharlieUnicorn, rules that out I guess :/


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> ...
> If I was the OP I'd find a competent frame builder as local as possible and have them inspect it and then go back. ...


Exactly, and that's been suggested several times in this thread. It's the most sensisble way to resolve the dispute, if the OP is truly interested in expedient resolution.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Why wait. Move on it now. You've been through enough rounds of back and forth, with no help from the dealer, who is clearly incompetent. Call, or get the frame and take it to a competent frame builder.

As far as qualifications, what's clear is that a retail bicycle dealer isn't competent to assess the frame condition. By now he should have _properly checked the alignment of both the frame and the dropouts_. He hasn't done either, and neither have you. So, what makes you any more qualified than him?


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

ibericb said:


> Exactly, and that's been suggested several times in this thread. It's the most sensisble way to resolve the dispute, if the OP is truly interested in expedient resolution.


I mentioned before, it's not necessary at this point because of consumer laws. Secondly, even if I do this, the dealer is responsible to handling warranty arrangements under consumer law, not me. Even if I get someone to look at it what makes you think the dealer is going to send it back to Lynskey? He's already being extremely dishonest, nothing can turn it around except an email from Don asking him to measure it properly.



ibericb said:


> Why wait. Move on it now. You've been through enough rounds of back and forth, with no help from the dealer, who is clearly incompetent. Call, or get the frame and take it to a competent frame builder.
> 
> As far as qualifications, what's clear is that a retail bicycle dealer isn't competent to assess the frame condition. By now he should have _properly checked the alignment of both the frame and the dropouts_. He hasn't done either, and neither have you. So, what makes you any more qualified than him?


It doesn't, but at least *I used a ruler*. and I don't think I ever said I was _more_ qualified than him. It's just seriously disturbing what's going on here.

Calling him is out of the question as I have no documented proof of the phone call. Ignored emails will be printed and sent with registered post (signature on delivery) with evidence of what was in the envelope. That's something for later down the track.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

If there is a government agency that will help you, use it. IF not, take matters into your own hands. Just get on with it, whatever it takes.

As far as competence goes, from what you alone have presented here the dealer has demonstrated he doesn't have the requisite competence to do the assessment required. But then you haven't established your's either. You're basically in a pissing match with this dealer. Do what it takes to get out of it.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Observer of this thread and of the advice given...some of which has been very good. It's sometimes difficult to step away, or change tactics...but that appears to be what's required.

Hope the OP has a moment of clarity on this.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

tvad said:


> Hope the OP has a moment of clarity on this.


I am definitely considering various avenues to take. Some appear to have been closed and shut off (it's clear which ones).

The likely outcome is that I will have an expensive paperweight. But I will push it anyway. I'll update again later this week.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Just for completeness:


Lynskey's 100% Satisfaction Guarantee

_Our 100% Satisfaction Guarantee is an assurance that the item you receive is of the highest quality and meets all your expectations.
•You have a full 45 days from when you receive your Lynskey product to determine if you need to exchange or return it for any reason
•Our Complete Satisfaction Guarantee applies to purchases made via Lynskey Performance factory direct. *If you purchased your Lynskey product through your Independent Dealer/ Local Bikeshop or other store, please inquire with the shop as to their return or exchange policy prior to making your purchase.
*•If you took advantage of our TiFi Finance or Trade-In programs you are eligible to exchange your Lynskey. Refunds cannot be given for products purchased through our finance or trade-in programs

*Returning your product*
•Returning your Lynskey product is an easy process and begins with submitting our RETURN AUTHORIZATION REQUEST. After you have submitted this form we will contact you promptly with an RA number
•*You are responsible for the cost of shipping your Lynskey Product back to our factory located in Chattanooga, Tennessee. *We highly recommend using The Best Lowest Bicycle Shipping in America and Worldwide | ShipBikes or www.bikeflights.com as they are bicycle shipping experts, very simple to use, and provide very competitive shipping rates. The average cost for shipping a bike is less than $100.00
•Should you prefer to manage the shipping process yourself all major carriers deliver to Chattanooga. Be certain to insure the shipment for its full retail value.
•Please note that shipping insurance does not cover damage due to improper packaging. It is your responsibility to pay any costs related to the repair or replacement of returned items damaged in shipping. Please take the time to carefully package your return
•The product must be received in working order with no damage due to abuse or neglect. The cost of any missing or damaged parts will be deducted from your refund. 
•In a refund situation we will refund the cost of the product. We do not refund any freight or delivery costs. If your product was originally shipped as "Free Freight" those original freight costs will be deducted from your refund amount.
•We will process your refund within 2 business days of receipt of the returned product. Your credit card company may take an additional 2-3 days before your credit is posted to your account.
_​
Further, 
Lynskey's Lifetime Warranty policy

_*Submit a Warranty Claim

All claims for warranty service must be made using Lynskey Performance Return Authorization claim forms.*
_
The entire process is spelled out at the link above. Particularly relevant in this case is the following:

_7. At no time may any retailer or distributor make representations of what is covered or not covered under this warranty without express written permission from Lynskey Performance. Should a retailer or distributor replace a frame before consulting Lynskey Performance, it is at the sole discretion of the retailer or distributor and they may not be reimbursed by Lynskey Performance._​
OP - since the time for the 100% Satisfaction Guarantee has expired, and that simple option isn't available to you, have you submitted the Return Authorization Request noted in the steps detailed ?


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## Squint (Jan 22, 2004)

I bought a Lynskey when they just got back into the bike business. They sent me the wrong frame which I sent back at my own expense (didn't even offer to reimburse me or provide a prepaid shipping label). The replacement frame had shifting issues out of the box consistent with a bent hanger. I thought that was unlikely but I got home, used my hanger gauge, and sure enough it was bent.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Squint said:


> I bought a Lynskey when they just got back into the bike business. They sent me the wrong frame which I sent back at my own expense (didn't even offer to reimburse me or provide a prepaid shipping label). The replacement frame had shifting issues out of the box consistent with a bent hanger. I thought that was unlikely but I got him and used my hanger gauge and sure enough it was bent.


And a little more completeness...

It takes less than that for me. Straight out mistake like that they need to fix all the way. The hanger is easy enough to remedy....

I would be pissed enough I would be a lot less neutral that your post here probably. Although I like to think I could post the way you did without coloring the info. Hats off to that effect. I still take every opportunity to state my feeling on why the last $30k I have spent has not and will never be on Trek products...


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

big mistake sending it back to the shop. IF there is a problem with the frame (it isn't clear since you've both used a bad method), then your dispute is going to be with the shop and not the manufacturer since you've already seen how the manufacturer is going to respond to an alignment issue (it's not their fault). I doubt a frame would come out of the shop with almost 1 cm misalignment.

Use whatever credit card or customer protection services you can use under Australian law. It's your only hope. They could say it's the fault of the shipper, but my guess is that you've left too much time go by for recourse with the shipper.


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

robt57 said:


> And a little more completeness...
> 
> It takes less than that for me. Straight out mistake like that they need to fix all the way. The hanger is easy enough to remedy....
> 
> I would be pissed enough I would be a lot less neutral that your post here probably. Although I like to think I could post the way you did without coloring the info. Hats off to that effect. I still take every opportunity to state my feeling on why the last $30k I have spent has not and will never be on Trek products...


Amen Brother, I am wit you 110%, some of our more pious members who are fans, and have ragged on the OP, would be royally ??? upset, nah put in your favorite word??? LOL they would no longer be fans. 

Welding any bike frame leaves opportunity for a boo-boo, Ti frames multiply that by 10 times, that is the reason Lynskey measures each frame before it leaves, but that doesn't mean that they are all perfect?? Since the front tire/fork finds its own natural track, we hope that the Fork/Frame interface provides perfect alignment which is critical on all two wheeled conveyances??

I'd say its obvious the OPs bike is "tweaked", I would call it 50/50 tweaked from factory or shipping?? actually for the OPs benefit lets call it 40/40, and the last 20% has to belong to the OP for parts or assembly errors, always possible as well??

I have worked on lots of cars/airplanes/tractors, and even been paid to do so, I would not profess 100% perfection on any build, and I am hiring the Bicycle DR. to assemble my NOS Pinarello Prince SL, due to snotty BB threads, seat post tube needing a little reaming???????

He's a friend, but I will pay him good money, just to ensure my supposed warranty is not voided???


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

Looks like Don Erwin is leaving Lynskey-- best news out of that company I've heard in quite some time. 

https://www.facebook.com/lynskeyperformance?fref=ts

good riddance.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> Looks like Don Erwin is leaving Lynskey


That might explain his laissez-faire replies to the OP.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

battler2 said:


> I am definitely considering various avenues to take. Some appear to have been closed and shut off (it's clear which ones).
> 
> The likely outcome is that I will have an expensive paperweight. But I will push it anyway. I'll update again later this week.


The long time between purchase and assembly doesn't help your case. Try a local builder to check alignment but your claim is maybe going nowhere. Have you been talking to the Dealer Distributor owner? Facebook the pictures to Lynskeys site?


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

ibericb said:


> That might explain his laissez-faire replies to the OP.



Nope that's just his attitude if he decides he's right and you disagree with him.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I just read through 3 pages of he said/she said.
*The string method - it's not bad if you can actually do it, the string is doing nothing more than creating a reference line - no consistencies between what the OP is doing and the shop, ultimately an alignment should be checked with wheel in and wheel out.

*The park tool is nothing more than an offset piece of tubing with an adjustable feeler on the end, something you can easily rig up. It may be of interest to check to see the if the axle sits square to the frame.

*What is of real interest to me is the OP's description "It was when I got to the hills and tried to do a hard ride on the flats I noticed there was a problem. Every descent, as I built up speed to around 35km/h (21mph) the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didn’t want to crash." Has anyone else taken a spin on this bike? From my point of view 21mph isn't all that fast on the flats let alone downhill. Everything so far is seemingly based on one person sitting on the bike for a small amount of time.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

*Your Bicycle Shop*

I will assume that your frame is not correctly aligned but having it checked on an alignment table is the best way of making this determination. As for the fork, I will assume that it is all square.

Not sure what State you're in and I know Australia Post is expensive but having it on a table and the fork also checked is something worth looking into just to be 100% sure.

The manufacture warranty for Lynskey only applies if you purchased it from an authorised dealer and further, you must go through your authorised dealer to get a return authorisation and they will deal directly with the manufacturer.

Also, your rights under Aussie Consumer Law are going to be limited to action with the dealer unless you purchased the frame from an authorised dealer.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

mikerp said:


> Has anyone else taken a spin on this bike? From my point of view 21mph isn't all that fast on the flats let alone downhill. Everything so far is seemingly based on one person sitting on the bike for a small amount of time.


I took several rides, omitted from description for repetitiveness. So considerable amount of time as I wanted to rule out 'rider confidence' as a factor. 21mph is not fast at all, that I was able to replicate the same feelings on flats and descents, and various road surfaces was supporting.



boneman said:


> I will assume that your frame is not correctly aligned but having it checked on an alignment table is the best way of making this determination. As for the fork, I will assume that it is all square.
> 
> Not sure what State you're in and I know Australia Post is expensive but having it on a table and the fork also checked is something worth looking into just to be 100% sure.
> 
> ...


Authorised dealer without question, there's only one.

I hope it doesn't have to come to going through the nasties to get this resolved.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

battler2 said:


> ...
> Authorised dealer without question, there's only one.
> 
> I hope it doesn't have to come to going through the nasties to get this resolved.


So I went to the Lynskey site and chose Australia as my country, and was redirected to the BikePRO site. I presume that means that everything Lynskey in AUS goes through them. If that's who you're dealing with, then you may just have to go through "the nasties", unless they are willing to do an about face.

The cite their Return and Warranty policies on their How-to-Buy page. Under the Warranty section I found this section:



> ...
> Under most warranties the product should be returned to BikePRO and we will forward the product on to the wholesaler. In a very small percentage of cases you will be required to return the product to the wholesaler directly. Please contact BikePRO before sending the product anywhere if you are unsure of what to do.
> 
> If BikePRO decides that the part is defective under the warranty conditions then the part will be returned to the supplier, and once the problem is rectified the product will be returned to you. The initial costs incurred in returning the faulty part to BikePRO are borne by the customer, and BikePRO and the supplier will pay for any subsequent freight.
> ...


As I read it, Lynskey won't or most likely can't deal with you directly, probably because of Australia business laws. That would typically be the case in the U.S. as well - you'd have to go through the domestic rep for the OEM, and for Lynskey in AUS that appears to be BikePRO.

Secondly, from what you've reported here, the dealer (I presume is BikePRO) is disputing your claim that the frame is out of alignment, and is unwilling to proceed further with a warranty claim. Unfortunately, as several of us have commented the dealer appears to be a hack. Maybe they will change their minds and have the frame properly assessed. Even if they do that and determine it is out, then it will come down to the next debate of whether it is a warrantable claim, or if it was subsequent damage, and if so who is to fault (shipper, them, or you).

I wish you luck in getting this resolved.


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## Agent319 (Jul 12, 2012)

Just for clarification OP, is this your first road bike?


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

I've read this thread with interest as:

1.) I, too, own a Lynskey.
2.) In my one and only dealing with Don he tried to upsell me a bike with the racing geometry I "needed" (without ever asking me what kind of rider I was, or wanted to be).
3.) I, too, ended up going with a reseller (Adrenaline Bikes in my case). 

Lynskey will claim the frame was damaged in transit or at the LBS.
The LBS will claim the frame was damaged by you.
Since you had the frame for so long and didn't notice any problems it's impossible to prove it didn't happen on your watch. 

I know that sucks and it's not fair, but unless someone decides to step up and assume responsibility (and it doesn't sound like anyone involved is willing to do that) there are just too many links in the chain to adequately place blame and get satisfaction.

Maybe the laws are different in Australia, but in the US fighting this in the courts would likely cost you more than the frame itself is worth.

I'm sorry this happened, OP, but at this point if it were me, I'd see about getting the frame straightened on my own dime and moving on.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

Agent319 said:


> Just for clarification OP, is this your first road bike?


Absolutely not.



Opus51569 said:


> Lynskey will claim the frame was damaged in transit or at the LBS.
> The LBS will claim the frame was damaged by you.
> Since you had the frame for so long and didn't notice any problems it's impossible to prove it didn't happen on your watch.
> 
> ...


This appears to be what Lynskey is doing, however, one option is to take it to a very credible local Ti builder and verify whether it was compression damage or welded incorrectly. The latter could be bad press for them, and I'm not sure they realise this.

LBS have never suggested it was damaged by me. There are no marks on the frame and I have photographed every inch of the frame to prove otherwise. Most crashes would result in some additional superficial damage at least. It was suggested I hit a pothole, and was 'noted' by Don immediately after.

Time is irrelevant. It could've been 2 weeks or 3 months before building, anything can happen even in 2 days. Is time relevant when numerous claims I've seen online for cracked chainstays/repairs under warranty?

I know the suspense is killing people, but I need to take it slow and give them more than enough time and opportunity to rectify the situation (consumer law again).


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> Looks like Don Erwin is leaving Lynskey-- best news out of that company I've heard in quite some time.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/lynskeyperformance?fref=ts
> 
> good riddance.


Hopefully his replacement doesn't continue the used car dealership approach that Don was so fond of.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

battler2 said:


> This appears to be what Lynskey is doing, however, one option is to take it to a very credible local Ti builder and verify whether it was compression damage or welded incorrectly. The latter could be bad press for them, and I'm not sure they realise this.
> 
> *I know you don't mean that to sound like extortion, but...*
> 
> ...


P.S. FWIW, I experienced the symptoms you described once, and it took me a while to figure out that the actual culprit was a combination of the heat and the road surface. The bike suddenly felt like I was trying to ride a wet noodle. I'm guessing you've accounted for this, but I didn't recall it being mentioned before. I probably missed it.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

ibericb said:


> My suggestion to you is get your frame back, whatever it takes, and forget this as as a manufactureres warranty issue. Then find a competent frame builder who can check and realign the frame as necessary. FInally, chalk this up to experience- the perils of buying a frame and finishing the bike without trialing while still in a bike shop's possession. It's a risk you take.


Getting the frame back - good.

But other than that: what an awful complicit attitude against the right of a consumer.

Hey, the guy bought a very expensive frame and the ****ing idiots from Lynskey do not stand behind their **** product.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

dracula said:


> Getting the frame back - good.
> 
> But other than that: what an awful complicit attitude against the right of a consumer.
> 
> Hey, the guy bought a very expensive frame and the ****ing idiots from Lynskey do not stand behind their **** product.


Here's the problem - if the frame is bent, prove it was a manufacturing defect, not subsequent damage. The warranty covers _ONLY_ defects in workmanship or materials, not damage caused by abuse or mishandling after it leaves Lynskey's hands. If it was subsequent damage it's not a warranty issue, it's a claim for damage in transit. The problem here is the Australian Lynskey rep, who is initially responsible for determining if there is a defect or not, maintains there is nothing wrong with the frame, at all. If a competent framebuilder can show that the frame was improperly assembled, then it's a warranty issue. 

If the frame is bent, which remains in question, but there is no proof of misassembly, then there are two issues - who damaged the frame, and the allowed time for such a claim. There were probably at least 4 different shippers, and the Lynskey rep involved , with at least 9 transfers of custody between Lynskey and the OP. I don't know about Australia, but in the U.S. most transit damage policies have a limited time period to make a claim.

The OP's best solution is paying to get his frame back, then have it evaluated by a competent frame builder to see if there is any indication of manufacturing error, or other damage to the frame. From there he can pursue a warranty claim if there is a good basis for a defect, or if wants to pursue a claim for damage in transit.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

battler2 said:


> ...
> Time is irrelevant. It could've been 2 weeks or 3 months before building, anything can happen even in 2 days. Is time relevant when numerous claims I've seen online for cracked chainstays/repairs under warranty?


Time is very relevant, more so if it is determined that there is no manufacturing defect that leads to a viable warranty claim. All warranties have a time limit. In the U.S. Lynskey provides for a lifetime warranty against defects in workmanship or materials for the frames they build. I will presume it's the same in Australia.

If, however, your frame was damaged in shipment, then time for a claim is generally limited. How long you have to file a claim depends on jurisdiction for where the damage occurred. In the U.S. it cannot be limited to less than 9 months from receipt of domestic shipment, and that is a commonly applied and accepted industry standard. I just looked and according to the Australian Chamber of Shipping Ltd, in Australia _you are limited to 9 months _for overland carriers, and 1 year for the sea leg of maritime shipment. 

Since you're now about 9 months from having received shipment, your ability to file a claim for damage in transit is about to expire, if it hasn't already, for all but the sea leg of the frame's transport. You need to press on quickly for resolution of a warranty claim if you have any interest in pursuing a potential claim for damage in transit.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

dracula said:


> Hey, the guy bought a very expensive frame and the ****ing idiots from Lynskey do not stand behind their **** product.


Let's back up a bit.
1) The OP buys a frame from a retailer, he builds it up and has an issue, he needs to first work this with the retailer, the retailer in turn needs to work things out with Lynskey. The OP has admittedly not done this yet - he should take them up and have the frame put on a frame builders deck and checked out. The Lynskey rep should have refered the OP back to the retailer.

Now I'll offer some expert opinion on Metrology and Measurements -I've spent small fortunes in procuring/using instruments and software (Leica, Metris, Faro, Brunson, Wild, NRK Spatial Analyzer, etc.)

2) The string method is valid, it works just a well as the Park FAG2, under some cases better. Both methods only provide a means of alignment of the rear triangles to each other in relation to the front triangle.
3) From the pics and description by the OP's method is flawed. The pics only show one side being strung at a time, they should be done simultaneously to provide a balanced load across the rear triangles.
4) There is no need to use the thinnest piece of string - you really want a piece of string that will take a good amount of tension. 
5)The outer surfaces of the drops is also not the surface that should be used for this, the inner surface is a control surface as it interfaces with the wheel hub.
6)The OP's pics show ~8mm of difference from side to side. A cloth/paper tape/ruler isn't a very good tool, a gauge block does make for a better setup (both OP and Shop are seemingly doing these operations with one person so it is tough to hold a device and take a decent shot. Based on the overall photos and method my vote for the better methodology goes to the shop
7)If you really want to get down to checking things you will have to go one of two ways:
A-put the frame on a frame builders table/jig center it up and take some real measurements
B-Measure the frame with a portable CMM and do an analysis (headtube to BB, BB to drops, center line of the complete frame 
8) The OP made some interesting statements "and I disagree with this as I later recalled that the dropouts had to be spread to fit the wheel" and "For arguments sake, the dropouts did have to be spread a little for the wheel to slide in. I just put this down as a trait of the frame (this becomes important later)." Was this a one time adjustment that was made? How was it done?

Frame misalignment is something mostly attributed with a bike pulling the OP describes the issue as "the bike felt like it was on ice, sliding around. I had to hit the brakes to slow down as I felt uneasy, and consequently rode the brakes all the way down as slow riders (not even pedalling) passed me. I didn’t want to crash." The closest I can get to this description after doing a search is - tire - After fall bicycle feels really slippery - Bicycles Stack Exchange
I'd really be interested in seeing another test riders input on this bikes handlling. 

On a side note (not related to Dracula's post) there is no reason to disparage the Shop's lack of proper English skills, it has nothing to do with the issue or competence.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

mikerp said:


> I'd really be interested in seeing another test riders input on this bikes handlling.


As I believe I said in my original post, this feeling of the front wheel being on ice was in my experience due to too little trail in the front end geometry.

If the OP can ride the bike no-hands without it leaning to one side then the bike is fine. But the OP claims *"Except riding no hands isn't something I like to do, there's too much that can go wrong and stupid crashes result in injury and time of my bike. Not worth it IMO."*

I consider this a very feeble excuse. The OP should let a friend or other third party try the bike as I feel this is a litmus test. Who cares how much the frame is off; I don't think any of us can say definitively at what degree a frame is out of alignment that it will manifest itself with poor handling. There certainly is some acceptable variation. Whether the Lynskey in question is within that range is an unknown.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm in full agreement Peter. I 2 wheel aligned vehicle is much more forgiving than 3 and up.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Excellent points, all. However, as I read it the dealer who was going to send it to a frame builder determined on his own that the frame was not out of alignment, and concluded it did not need to go to a framebuilder for further assessment.

So far all that's been mentioned is a simple string check for the rear triangle, and the results are in dispute. If the rear triangle is out as much as the OP's measurements would indicate, then I would expect that the rear tire would either be rubbing or near rubbing on a chainstay, and that it would be obvious. Further there's no mention of a check by either the OP or the dealer of rear dropout parallelism. I don't understand why that hasn't been done. And has anyone considered the front fork?

As I understand it, BikePRO is both the dealer and the Lynskey rep for Australia. If you enter the Lynskey site, and pick Australia as your country you are redirected to the BikePRO site. From that I take it that Lynskey has no Australian subsidiary, so all Lynskey business in Australia is conducted through BikePRO. Having determined there is nothing to adjust, that there is nothing wrong with the frame, BikePRO wants to return the frame to the OP at the OP's expense, which is consistent with their published warranty policy. The OP is disputing their findings, and is refusing to pay for the return shipping. 

I have no knowledge of Aussie consumer protection laws, which the OP keeps pointing to for justification. But from where I sit it appears that without an independent evaluation he's not going to win the argument.


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

mikerp said:


> Let's back up a bit.
> 1) The OP buys a frame from a retailer, he builds it up and has an issue, he needs to first work this with the retailer, the retailer in turn needs to work things out with Lynskey. The OP has admittedly not done this yet - he should take them up and have the frame put on a frame builders deck and checked out. The Lynskey rep should have refered the OP back to the retailer.
> 
> Now I'll offer some expert opinion on Metrology and Measurements -I've spent small fortunes in procuring/using instruments and software (Leica, Metris, Faro, Brunson, Wild, NRK Spatial Analyzer, etc.)
> ...


1) I have already done this, read the thread. Bike shop even states he was about to send it to a frame builder friend to measure it 'properly', and then appeared to be satisfied with this measurements. I provided measurements and the frame was requested back for inspection. He does not provide any *measurements* at all. (Hint: look this up in the dictionary)
2) String method is reasonably accurate for its intended purpose if it's done correctly, but I wouldn't go using it as a reference to fixing the frame. It only measures the alignment at the seat post, not at the dropouts.
3) My method is not flawed and I did *not* measure them one at a time. They were looped around the headtube as well. I just haven't provided those photos.
4) And if the tension is not consistent either side? Elastic band then? This is a very very minor detail, that wouldn't result in a measurable difference I think (but thicker string, where do you measure? the middle of the string, the very edge, where?)
5) As I already explained somewhere in this thread, the drops needed to be spread slightly to put the wheel in, whether it's a trait of the frame or not I don't know. This throws this out completely.
6) Hahahahaha. Sorry I can't even reply to this ridiculous claim. Do you work for the shop?
7) Shop said they would do this, and now aren't. See the problem here?
8) One time adjustment? what are you talking about? Have you ever installed a wheel into a frame before?
9) That stackexchange article contains loads of varied responses and none of them confidently answer the question. As you've suggested it's the tires, I can say that I changed the tyres 3 times, used 23's, 25's and 28's. Wheels are trued and dished perfectly. The wheels (and tires) were transferred from another bike with no issues and I used them constantly with no issues.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Is this a re-trolling thing, WTF?


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## crossracer (Jun 21, 2004)

Just fyi, Im also dealing with them about a missing shipment and don doesn't seem to be very helpful. I paid for 2nd day priority (which I allways believed came with a tracking number), waited almost a week and nothing. Contacted don and he simply said it was shipped fri last and that's all ive heard of him. Im giving him until mon and calling. 
so far I am completely unhappy with the service provided by this shop.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

OK, I am having an issue with my bike, & devised a way to check the frame trueness, which is pretty simple.

Put 2 true wheels on the bike, get a 6FT straightedge or sq al channel at the hardware & 4 clamps. Let the air out of the tires, install on the frame, about 6" above the floor (to clear the spokes) attach to rear wheel, extending to the front wheel. Put a clamp on the rim/channel at the rear of the rear wheel & at the front of the rear wheel. 

The front of the straight edge must be lined up pretty good with the front & rear of the front wheel. If it isn't, the frame is twisted. 

Takes about 20 min.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

crossracer said:


> Just fyi, Im also dealing with them about a missing shipment and don doesn't seem to be very helpful. I paid for 2nd day priority (which I allways believed came with a tracking number), waited almost a week and nothing. Contacted don and he simply said it was shipped fri last and that's all ive heard of him. Im giving him until mon and calling.
> so far I am completely unhappy with the service provided by this shop.


Didn't read through the thread, did you. If you saw this entry (scroll up), and the post on Lynskey's facebook site May 18 was accurate, you won't be hearing from Don again. He was supposed to retire a week ago. You might want to try contacting someone else.


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## cage. (Sep 10, 2013)

battler2, you need to ring the ACCC and ask them how you should proceed with this... you'll end up being on hold for a while before you get through but we're talking about a frame that owes you a fair amount, not a toaster bought from K-Mart.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

We haven't heard anything from battler2 in 2 weeks. I wonder if he's found satisfaction?


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

not just yet, but i received a promising email from lynskey. more details later if anything comes of it. i'll give more time and be patient as i imagine there's some discussion going on behind the scenes.


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

battler2 said:


> not just yet, but i received a promising email from lynskey. more details later if anything comes of it. i'll give more time and be patient as i imagine there's some discussion going on behind the scenes.


I'm glad to hear that, I rather doubt Lynskey would want you on a bike that was bent with their name on it. I am rather certain that whoever is the new customer service rep will at least want to give you a clean sheet start on your concerns, and thanks for keeping us informed.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

battler2 said:


> not just yet, but i received a promising email from lynskey. more details later if anything comes of it. i'll give more time and be patient as i imagine there's some discussion going on behind the scenes.


i'm glad that you're finally getting some promising news. 

goddammit Lynskey's customer service dept dropped the ball on this one. Funny how a user has an issue and he goes online to make a big detailed post about his issue, and suddenly, magically, a couple weeks later he gets promising news. Seen it many time. Makes me think that calling out people online gets a better respond then calling their vaulted customer service department eh.

I can't believe some posters in here try to make it sound like you didn't know what you were doing by bringing up things like "qualifications". Now these are probably the same folks making fun at the "qualified teenager mechanic" working for $10/hr at some LBS. And your string method is perfectly applicable because the geometry reason behind it is a sound one.

As for my interest in this thread. I recommended Lynskey to a friend last week because he wanted a ti bike but doesn't want to pay custom-ti price. Now I'm thinking of withdrawing my recommendation. Might just recommend him get a used Serotta instead.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

_"...........I can't believe some posters in here try to make it sound like you didn't know what you were doing.........._"

With this you hit the nail on the head about RBR and online posting in general. 

One of the troubling aspects of RBR over the past 5-6 years is a band of posters across various forums who receive free products and/or discounted goods from online vendors who sell cycling stuff on RBR (via ad links). If an unsuspecting RBR poster comes on to point out something legit or some kind of problem (from one of these online vendors), because they are not getting resolution, they are subjected to an unwarranted idiocy. And this idiocy comes from the same people, over and over, across many different RBR forums. In the end it becomes a war of posting attrition, and many posters who have legit complaints, just give up.

It's unfortunate this happens, but, alas, online vendors have learned how to fight back at what they think shouldn't happen (the airing of dirty laundry via public internet forums). Thus it (the discounts, free products, etc., etc for so-called "board buddies') is money well spent in their eyes. 

Thankfully, a few people (like the OP with this Lynskey issue) will keep patiently plugging away, patiently batting away the verbal debris, and eventually the online vendor throws their hands up in the air and realizes the person is not going to back down.

Hopefully Lynskey will make this issue right, because whether it was their supplier or not who sold the bike to this OP, Lynskey is where the buck stops. It is their rep that is the on the line here, along with their much hyped "Complete Customer Satisfaction Guarantee" advertising. Someone who has gone to this length to get a problem rectified, should be immediately taken care of, completely free of charge. Lynskey (and I bet they are kicking themselves right now for not doing this) should just have sent a new frame immediately out to him before even waiting for the damaged frame to be returned. 

The goodwill and free word -of-mouth advertising alone from this one person would have been worth more than the new replacement frame. Now Lynskey has got a permanent blight on their rep, and it will be stored forever via the Internet, Google and RBR (unless RBR starts purging negative posts against cycling vendors who advertise on the RBR site.....which wouldn't surprise me given how the owners of this site have completely veered off course from when they first started it).


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

BelgianHammer said:


> _
> Hopefully Lynskey will make this issue right, because whether it was their supplier or not who sold the bike to this OP, Lynskey is where the buck stops. It is their rep that is the on the line here, along with their much hyped "Complete Customer Satisfaction Guarantee" advertising. Someone who has gone to this length to get a problem rectified, should be immediately taken care of, completely free of charge. Lynskey (and I bet they are kicking themselves right now for not doing this) should just have sent a new frame immediately out to him before even waiting for the damaged frame to be returned.
> 
> The goodwill and free word -of-mouth advertising alone from this one person would have been worth more than the new replacement frame. Now Lynskey has got a permanent blight on their rep, and it will be stored forever via the Internet, Google and RBR (unless RBR starts purging negative posts against cycling vendors who advertise on the RBR site.....which wouldn't surprise me given how the owners of this site have completely veered off course from when they first started it)._


_

Really? Your rant is rather absurd in light of the facts that the OP has presented.

The problem hasn't been Lynskey, it's been the Australian rep who has disputed the OP's claim that the frame is bent. The Australian rep for Lynskey examined the frame and maintained there is nothing wrong with it. That's where the beef lies. So at least place the blame where it belongs. That rep then asked the OP to pay the return shipping, which is entirely consistent with their published policy (previously covered within the thread).

Second, as for Lynskey's "100% Satisfaction Guarantee", that's limited, like most warranties and guarantees. The policy is as follows:

"Our 100% Satisfaction Guarantee is an assurance that the item you receive is of the highest quality and meets all your expectations.
•*You have a full 45 days from when you receive your Lynskey product *to determine if you need to exchange or return it for any reason
•*Our Complete Satisfaction Guarantee applies to purchases made via Lynskey Performance factory direct. If you purchased your Lynskey product through your Independent Dealer/ Local Bikeshop or other store, please inquire with the shop as to their return or exchange policy prior to making your purchase.
*•If you took advantage of our TiFi Finance or Trade-In programs you are eligible to exchange your Lynskey. Refunds cannot be given for products purchased through our finance or trade-in programs"​
The OP sat on the frame for something like 8 months before he raised an issue. That's beyond the 45 day limit even if the policy applied in Australia, which it appears it doesn't. He bought it in Australia from the Lynskey rep and dealer, not the U.S. And in Australia the policy is dictated by the Australian Lynskey rep under Australian laws. That's how warranties work.

So, let's give Lynskey a break, at least until it is seen whether or not there actually IS a problem with the frame. If there is a legitimate problem with the frame, which at this point is in dispute, then Lynskey also has a problem with their rep and dealer in Australia._


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

BelgianHammer, maybe it's because I recently watched Good Night, and Good Luck...but why does your post feel like McCarthy talking about communists?

Which posters, specifically, are you referring to?

I've said nice things about a lot of products.

How do I get in on the rampant free swag kickback thing???


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Really? Your rant is rather absurd in light of the facts that the OP has presented.
> 
> The problem hasn't been Lynskey, it's been the Australian rep who has disputed the OP's claim that the frame is bent. The Australian rep for Lynskey examined the frame and maintained there is nothing wrong with it. That's where the beef lies. So at least place the blame where it belongs. That rep then asked the OP to pay the return shipping, which is entirely consistent with their published policy (previously covered within the thread).
> 
> ...


Said it before and I'll say it again. Bullsh*t. If this company doesn't care enough that a "potentially" dangerous bike frame is out there that they made and they shipped and they backed with their Aussie reps then I wouldn't ride one if you gave it to me. Maybe it is fine? Maybe it isn't? People go fast on bikes. This is a company I wouldn't deal with if they offered me a free bike. All they care about is being "right" or selling frames. If they are concerned about their reputation or their customers safety they wouldn't do any of this Bullsh*t. They would want the frame back in their little old Lynsky hands. If it's bad, well, we did the right thing! If it's perfect? Well, damn customer was an idiot but at least we know. If it's somewhere in between? Well, at least no one is "highly" likely to get F'n killed on our product because we have no F'n idea if it's safe or not? This kind of corporate behavior should be confined to the likes of Ford with the Pinto and Crown Vic. This is a BS company. Period.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> Said it before and I'll say it again. Bullsh*t. ...
> 
> ... This is a BS company. Period.


Since we have no clue how the "claim" is being handled by Lynskey, your assertions and conclusions are completely misplaced. I'm not a Lynskey fan by any stretch (no, I won't be buying a Lynskey of any kind, but not because of any concerns about their customer service). Let's see how this plays out, then conclude on Lynskey's integrity.

BTW - don't confine your comparisons to Ford. The list can be quite long, and include about every major auto OEM.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Since we have no clue how the "claim" is being handled by Lynskey, your assertions and conclusions are completely misplaced. I'm not a Lynskey fan by any stretch (no, I won't be buying a Lynskey of any kind, but not because of any concerns about their customer service). Let's see how this plays out, then conclude on Lynskey's integrity.
> 
> BTW - don't confine your comparisons to Ford. The list can be quite long, and include about every major auto OEM.


Nonesense. I provide 10X this customer service and I'm only responsible for a continuing education program that couldn't possibly jeopardize someone's safety. We go way out of our way to make sure our customers have a great experience with our product. And if they voice that they aren't? We fix it... Even if they are wrong and obnoxious. Because that's what works best in the long term. Ethics, integrity and retail customer service... The OPs interaction with this BS company is ridiculous. Completely F'n ridiculous. They will not survive long with a philosophy of "F customer service." Again, and for anyone googling or finding this thread.... Expect a concern for your safety. Expect a commitment to quality. Expect a commitment customer satisfaction. This sh*t should have been resolved in a few days. And for not one single cent of the customers money, even if he's wrong... That's what reliable retailers do. What you are reading is what bullsh*t frame makers do. PERIOD!!!


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> ...The OPs interaction with this BS company is ridiculous. Completely F'n ridiculous.



Possibly true. Or, from what we know, the equal possibility that the OP is "Completely F'n ridiculous".

Patience. 

In the meantime, stick to academics.


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## boneman (Nov 26, 2001)

battler2 said:


> not just yet, but i received a promising email from lynskey. more details later if anything comes of it. i'll give more time and be patient as i imagine there's some discussion going on behind the scenes.


Ah, that's good to hear. I know how hard it is to deal with US mfr. warranty/service issues remotely having lived in Asia and Europe. I had a weld issue with my Litespeed years ago towards the end of my European assignment and waited until I got back to the States to get it fixed rather than going through their European distributor. Interestingly, I purchased it from a large US internet retailer (an authorized dealer) but took it to my local Litespeed dealer who dealt with the mfr. and despite the frame being 6 years old, it was fixed and refurbished without charge including replacing the headtube going from using a 1" steerer to a 1.125". I hope your resolution works out as well.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> In the meantime, stick to academics.


Haha! I guess so...




boneman said:


> I purchased it from a large US internet retailer (an authorized dealer) but took it to my local Litespeed dealer who dealt with the mfr. and despite the frame being 6 years old, it was fixed and refurbished without charge including replacing the headtube going from using a 1" steerer to a 1.125". I hope your resolution works out as well.


This is what you want to hear!


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> This is what you want to hear!


My dig about sticking to academics, while very personal, wasn't meant to be disparaging towards you in any way. Your product is intellectual. Manufactured goods are entirely different. If the frame is found to be defective by fault of manufacturing, I am certain it will be repaired or replaced under the full lifetime warranty. The question remains, is the frame damaged or not, and if so how/when was it damaged?


What I want hear is a reasonable resolution to the dispute of whether the frame is damaged, or not, and if so how it was damaged. Right now, as it stands, the OP believes his frame is bent. I have no reason to doubt him, other than a large, and I suspect reputable, Australian dealer and importer of Lynskey frames (BikePro) determined by a comparable method that the frame was NOT bent. Until the two parties come to agreement on how to resolve that dispute, it's going nowhere.


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## skitorski (Dec 4, 2012)

My Bikes Direct $399 Windsor got here from China in a box aligned perfectly.


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## oldcannondale (Jul 23, 2011)

skitorski said:


> My Bikes Direct $399 Windsor got here from China in a box aligned perfectly.


Of course it did, Satan has no interest in such a soul-less conveyance or those who ride them, aaahhh, but a Colnago, Pinarello, or even a Litespeed, he got nothing but time?


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## Vitamin G (Aug 3, 2007)

Opus51569 said:


> I've read this thread with interest as:
> 
> 1.) I, too, own a Lynskey.
> 2.) In my one and only dealing with Don he tried to upsell me a bike with the racing geometry I "needed" (without ever asking me what kind of rider I was, or wanted to be).
> 3.) I, too, ended up going with a reseller (Adrenaline Bikes in my case).


Reading with interest as well, because I too am a Lynskey owner. I can't say that my frame is misaligned or anything, but I do find it overly twitchy at speed. The best I can explain it is that the bike always feels like I am riding about 5 mph faster than I really am. I just cannot figure out how to get comfortable on the geometry of the bike. 

Anyway, my one customer service experience with them was when I was upgrading the crank from the FSA crank to a Shimano 105. I wrote them asking for their recomendation of anti-sieze or grease for the bottom bracket. They replied to ask my local shop rather than give their own suggestion. I thought this was a weird answer -- since they built up my bike originally (even though I did purchase through my local shop).

I don't want to turn this into a Lynskey bashing thread, but my next bike (if/when) will be one of the big brands again...


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

I should have an update soon, as it's been progressing slowly, some promises have been made but I still don't have a frame. Hopefully this will be resolved in the next week or two (where I'll post about everything that's happened since).


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

battler2 said:


> I should have an update soon, as it's been progressing slowly, some promises have been made but I still don't have a frame. Hopefully this will be resolved in the next week or two (where I'll post about everything that's happened since).


It's been 4 weeks. Any update?


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## battler2 (Mar 13, 2015)

ibericb said:


> It's been 4 weeks. Any update?


been too busy riding my replacement frame 

i'll write out a detailed summary soon and edit the original post in this thread, change the title etc.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

better to start a new thread - the thread title can't be changed


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## packetloss (Jun 2, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Really? Your rant is rather absurd in light of the facts that the OP has presented.
> 
> The problem hasn't been Lynskey, it's been the Australian rep who has disputed the OP's claim that the frame is bent. The Australian rep for Lynskey examined the frame and maintained there is nothing wrong with it. That's where the beef lies. So at least place the blame where it belongs. That rep then asked the OP to pay the return shipping, which is entirely consistent with their published policy (previously covered within the thread).
> 
> .


It's a problem on both ends. Ultimately Lynskey manufactured this frame and should be standing behind what they sell. It seems rather evident that the bike wasn't crashed, and certainly not in a way that would cause this misalignment. They claim they check each frame for alignment, but what proof do they have that it was aligned? Perhaps the employee that checked it was lazy and just checked the box on the list but didn't do it. There is no way to prove or disprove. All that remains is the frame is out of alignment and if I were Lynskey, I wouldn't want a customer to ride such a frame. If something happens they will be on the line for a lot more than the cost of the frame. A real manufacturer would just replace it.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

packetloss said:


> It's a problem on both ends. Ultimately Lynskey manufactured this frame and should be standing behind what they sell. It seems rather evident that the bike wasn't crashed, and certainly not in a way that would cause this misalignment. They claim they check each frame for alignment, but what proof do they have that it was aligned? Perhaps the employee that checked it was lazy and just checked the box on the list but didn't do it. There is no way to prove or disprove. All that remains is the frame is out of alignment and if I were Lynskey, I wouldn't want a customer to ride such a frame. If something happens they will be on the line for a lot more than the cost of the frame. A real manufacturer would just replace it.


Guess you missed most of the discussion. Reading the entire thread might be helpful for you.

Lynskey was wiling to stand behind it. There was no problem with Lynskey . The problem was the dispute over whether the frame was bent or not. The Lynskey rep in AUS maintained it was NOT bent, the OP maintained it was. While we don't yet have the details, from the latest exchange it sounds like Lynskey, for whatever reason, concluded with replacing the frame.


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

ibericb said:


> better to start a new thread - the thread title can't be changed


Don't do that. One, that makes no sense. The title doesn't have to change. Two, if lynskey made good on the warranty they deserve the recognition in the same thread that google is going to send people to when they search for "lynskey problems" or whatever.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Anything? Really? Nothing to update? Nothing? Lynsky has made me consider that you can getaway with anything... Even if the OP is a nut job. Good customer service often means eating a bad experience even when it isn't your fault. And absolutely when it is. There are a lot of replies on here from folks that have absolutely no clue how retail works. Zero. Data, engineering, you name it, it's all BS. Retail is a brand, it's about a reputation, it's about quality. I've done it. If you haven't, shut up and go away. You have no idea. It's hard. It takes a lot to deal with a customer when a customer is wrong. And this thread shows a company that is so far from one I would ever deal with, I wouldn't want their frame if they offered it for free. 

Oh wait! Let's stick to the minutia! Who is wrong and who is right? OK, run YOUR business that way. You have a lot to learn if you want to survive.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> Anything? Really? Nothing to update? Nothing? Lynsky has made me consider that you can getaway with anything... Even if the OP is a nut job. Good customer service often means eating a bad experience even when it isn't your fault. And absolutely when it is. There are a lot of replies on here from folks that have absolutely no clue how retail works. Zero. Data, engineering, you name it, it's all BS. Retail is a brand, it's about a reputation, it's about quality. I've done it. If you haven't, shut up and go away. You have no idea. It's hard. It takes a lot to deal with a customer when a customer is wrong. And this thread shows a company that is so far from one I would ever deal with, I wouldn't want their frame if they offered it for free.
> 
> Oh wait! Let's stick to the minutia! Who is wrong and who is right? OK, run YOUR business that way. You have a lot to learn if you want to survive.


Who pissed in your Wheaties ?

Back-up a week and read the OP's last reply (which he hasn't made good one, yet). No facts by which to conclude, but it sounds as if all is well by the OP's apparent satisfaction. The prudent approach is, however, wait for the facts to come out before rendering judgment.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Who pissed in your Wheaties ?
> 
> Back-up a week and read the OP's last reply (which he hasn't made good one, yet). No facts by which to conclude, but it sounds as if all is well by the OP's apparent satisfaction. The prudent approach is, however, wait for the facts to come out before rendering judgment.


Haha! Yeah, fair enough, over the top... I just don't get this, something is awry?


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> I just don't get this, something is awry?


I don't think so. The problem was, in part, Lynskey doesn't transact business in Australia - they don't have an AUS business set up. They rely on a rep/dealer to take care of things and do well by them, effectively as the voice of Lynskey. That was where the dispute was - between the OP and the rep. Apparently it took some time to work through that with the rep. 

The wakeup call for Lynskey may be that they need a different rep in AUS.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Crickets.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

I had the same thought yesterday when the Lynskey sale ads popped up.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Keep in mind this is the Internet.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

mikerp said:


> Keep in mind this is the Internet.


But everything on the internet is true, and you're a French model, right ? 

I had the thought about this one long ago, that this could easily be a disrep plant, and nobody would have any way of knowing.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Or, he could have actually received a misaligned frame



ibericb said:


> ...and nobody would have any way of knowing.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Migen21 said:


> Or, he could have actually received a misaligned frame


And there is no way of knowing, one way or the other. That's the point.


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## cage. (Sep 10, 2013)

Don't know why Battler2 has gone quiet on this. Its poor form imo to start it a thread like this and not finish...but that's just me.

You can read the end result on our local forum from page 7...

Australian Cycling Forums - Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> But everything on the internet is true, and you're a French model, right ?
> 
> I had the thought about this one long ago, that this could easily be a disrep plant, and nobody would have any way of knowing.



Yeah... Uber troll. That's why I came back. I'd still sell a Lynsky frame if you gave it to me. But I'm thinking more and more, disrep jackass poster. This thread has been icky and off from the start. Now, this doesn't happen with companies that support their products and eat losses where needed even if they are wrong. That's good business in the long haul and bad business in today's ledger. I'd NEVER buy a Lynsky product. But that only screams uber troll has won?


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Migen21 said:


> Or, he could have actually received a misaligned frame


I could have won the Powerball last week.

On the other hand I do have among the bikes in the shop, 4 Lynskey frames and a 5th in production at the moment.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

mikerp said:


> I could have won the Powerball last week.
> 
> On the other hand I do have among the bikes in the shop, 4 Lynskey frames and a 5th in production at the moment.


What does that comment mean?


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

PBL450 said:


> What does that comment mean?


One is a possibility

One is an actual fact

Based on the linked thread on the replacement frame, the OP was provided an upgraded frame. It was never shown that there was a misaligned frame.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

cage. said:


> Don't know why Battler2 has gone quiet on this. Its poor form imo to start it a thread like this and not finish...but that's just me.
> 
> You can read the end result on our local forum from page 7...
> 
> Australian Cycling Forums - Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame


Thanks Cage. I think Battler2 was just spreading the word to empower his claim. He owes Lynskey a resolved post at least, preferably on his original post. Sounds like the Aussie Distributor sucks and Lynskey are stuck with them.


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## MtKuna (Apr 4, 2015)

I would never buy a Lynsky either.............. and I didn't thank god..MOOTS all the way


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## [email protected] (Apr 15, 2020)

Hi Battler2,

how did you go with this??? I am in the proceeds of concluding a 4 year battle with Lynskey with a very an issue like yours. I got an R450 then R350 months apart from each other off them in the second half of 2014. The R450 was always problematic with rear wheel removal/insertion. I would have to smack it out with the palm of my hand. My tires 23mm. When I took delivery of the R350.....same thing. I just thought it was how they were made. In 2016 I went to replace the 23mm tires with 25mm. It was then apparent that the tire sat within 1mm of the drive side chain stay with heaps of clearance on the non drive side. Ride down to same nano meter my R450 had the same issue. Different brands of tires would touch. Contacted Lynskey got given the hot a pot hole line,damaged in freight & wheel dishing etc blah blah blah. I too initially delt with Don Irwin. I knew something was'nt right as the two frames had exactly the same issue. The boxes were not damaged when i received them initially as well.
They are finally coming to the party but i have to pay freight from Sydney Australia. So costly. But just in case they change their minds I getting fuel for the fire. I have come across two other guys who had similar issues with late 2014 frames. Actually the same issues. But they sold the frames.

If there were frame issues during this period i would have to feel for Lynskey, as they were real busy shipping frames globally....a lot of recalls and freight costs. Not good for a company of that size.

Would really appreciate some feed back from you re this.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> It was then apparent that the tire sat within 1mm of the drive side chain stay with heaps of clearance on the non drive side. Ride down to same nano meter my R450 had the same issue. Different brands of tires would touch. Contacted Lynskey got given the hot a pot hole line,damaged in freight & *wheel dishing* etc blah blah blah. I too initially delt with Don Irwin. *I knew something was'nt right as the two frames had exactly the same issue.*


I would have given you some wheel dishing blah blah too.

Have you put the same wheel(s) in a third frame? A different wheel in the Lynskey?

It very well could be both frames are off by the same amount. But the logical guess there would indeed be wheel dishing if you are using the same wheel in both.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Very quick way to test, flip the wheel around and put it back in the other way. If the wheel dish was off, it would be close to the other chainstay.


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## [email protected] (Apr 15, 2020)

Thanks for showing interest in this topic as which I have mentioned has been dragging on for some time. The obvious should be stated that having two bikes meant two sets of wheels. Even with one wheel you can can insert 180D the other way for a simple dish test. 

Before I go any further i will say Lynskey have just agreed finally to sort this just as I had reached out to the battler2 who started this thread. so hoping a 4 year on and off sporadic communication with Lynskey will come to an end.

There were two issues with the frame. As mentioned when I first got the R450 insertion and removal of the rear wheel after opening the brake caliper and releasing the quick release, the rear wheel had to be smacked hard with the palm of my hand for removal. Insertion was'nt easy either. When the R350 arrived a few months later same thing..i just thought, okay its how these frames are...

However...two years later from Lynskey in 2016 I got my wife an R315, her friend an R360 and myself an Urbansky. NO PROBLEMS WITH THE REAR WHEEL INSERTION OR REMOVAL. In fact the rear wheel action was inline with all my other bikes. The rear wheel would just pop in and out...like a dream. I raised the issue and got given the run around....2016 was also the year that 25mm tires gained popularity. It was when I went to upgrade my tires from 23mm to 25mm i could clearly noticed the chain stay tire clearance issue. Hence my alignment concerns. Both frames had the 25mm tire set up hard up against the drive side chain stay. My wifes R315 and here friends R360....no problems with a 25mm tire and also both these frames had the wheel sitting dead center..this is what got me. Unlike other people who may have experienced this with frames built in 2014(i say may have) i had other frames from Lynskey to make a direct comparison.....and other bikes annnnnd lots of wheel sets. The R350 & R450 are both spec'ed for 25mm tires. You can still google the specs from various retailers.

Its my opinion that for a very small window in 2014 production of these bikes something was overlooked. I will be very clear to anyone reading this that the other Lynskeys i own including a Ridgeline 29er are excellent in every way possible. 
I have a lot of bikes, and the R350 on 23mm tires is my favourite of them all. The 3/2 Ti is plush. The R450 was rarely ridden and I retired it a few years back. Its 6/4 ti made it stiff but less compliant.

Maybe the two issues these frames have are related. i'm not a frame builder. But regardless they have been a standout against all my other bikes. They cost me a lot of money....enough said! 

I'm hoping for a response from battler2 who brought his frame from during the same period as me...to see if his problems were the same...

Thanks...


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for showing interest in this topic as which I have mentioned has been dragging on for some time. The obvious should be stated that having two bikes meant two sets of wheels. Even with one wheel you can can insert 180D the other way for a simple dish test.
> 
> Before I go any further i will say Lynskey have just agreed finally to sort this just as I had reached out to the battler2 who started this thread. so hoping a 4 year on and off sporadic communication with Lynskey will come to an end.
> 
> ...


I spent lots of time frame shopping over the past 4 months to build up a bike from nothing. I never, ever, even for a second would have considered a Lynsey frame. I looked at eBay and others and was willing to ship from worldwide. I had a Lynsey frame in the right size show up 10 minutes up the road in the next town over. I didn’t even bother. This company looks more and more like a POS operation all the time, which is worrisome because their products, in the event of failure, could easily kill someone. No f’in thanks. Bad products from bad companies... Caveat emptor I guess. But not for me.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for showing interest in this topic as which I have mentioned has been dragging on for some time. The obvious should be stated that having two bikes meant two sets of wheels. Even with one wheel you can can insert 180D the other way for a simple dish test.
> 
> Before I go any further i will say Lynskey have just agreed finally to sort this just as I had reached out to the battler2 who started this thread. so hoping a 4 year on and off sporadic communication with Lynskey will come to an end.
> 
> ...


You have never said whether or not you tried a different wheel in your frame. You never mentioned whether you'd flipped the wheel in your frame either. If I were a warranty guy these are the VERY FIRST questions I'd ask. 
Well...have you?


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## klasse (Jun 27, 2013)

Will try and determine the purchase date of my Lynskey Cooper CX. I bought it on ebay directly from Lynskey back when they would list frames at no reserve. The rear wheel rubbed into the brake pads - no matter what. You could set it not to rub on the stand, then as soon as you start riding, it is rubbing again. 

Well, the guy at Lynskey (who is no longer with the company) told me straight up that the frame probably has to be aligned. They covered the cost of shipping to/from California and included a new rear thru-axle skewer as well (the original was poor quality). 

Happy with it now, but it was a mystery and frankly a PITA back then. 



[email protected] said:


> Hi Battler2,
> 
> how did you go with this??? I am in the proceeds of concluding a 4 year battle with Lynskey with a very an issue like yours. I got an R450 then R350 months apart from each other off them in the second half of 2014. The R450 was always problematic with rear wheel removal/insertion. I would have to smack it out with the palm of my hand. My tires 23mm. When I took delivery of the R350.....same thing. I just thought it was how they were made. In 2016 I went to replace the 23mm tires with 25mm. It was then apparent that the tire sat within 1mm of the drive side chain stay with heaps of clearance on the non drive side. Ride down to same nano meter my R450 had the same issue. Different brands of tires would touch. Contacted Lynskey got given the hot a pot hole line,damaged in freight & wheel dishing etc blah blah blah. I too initially delt with Don Irwin. I knew something was'nt right as the two frames had exactly the same issue. The boxes were not damaged when i received them initially as well.
> They are finally coming to the party but i have to pay freight from Sydney Australia. So costly. But just in case they change their minds I getting fuel for the fire. I have come across two other guys who had similar issues with late 2014 frames. Actually the same issues. But they sold the frames.
> ...


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## klasse (Jun 27, 2013)

^^purchased mine in Aug 2016^^
took awhile to figure out that it was out of alignment tho! 

will shoot you a PM in case I can help.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

This is usually caused by, 1. loose headset bearings or 2. (most commonly) you have a set of those cheap Chinese aero carbon wheels with the plate-style "aero" spokes. Those spokes are so damned stiff that they will not read tension properly and hence are ALWAYS WAY under--tensioned. This is NOT due to the workmanship of the Chinese workers, because I've taken those wheels to a professional wheel builder who said that they were perfectly tensioned. I knew better and I took two full turns on each spoke and carefully aligned them and then they rode properly.

If you buy those wheels you have to get either the round spokes or the high prices aero spokes that are truly aero shaped.

As for a frame misalignment, I have never known this to react like your description. Such a misalignment I would expect to turn the bike slightly sideways and while that would slow the bike, it wouldn't make it unstable in my experience. But the spoke tension is EXTREMELY important. And you say that the headset doesn't have any problems.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

ericm979 said:


> If the alignment is very off, enough to cause handling problems, wouldn't it turn different in one direction than the other?
> 
> Unsteady handling like you describe sounds like the wrong fork rake, too tight or loose headset, frame geometry or weight distribution.


Yes it would and those old steel bike would sometimes be WAY off but the cornering though slightly different was enough to bother with.

I do not think that this problem was with alignment. Or telling him he doesn't know what he's doing or that he used the wrong tool or any other stupid argument.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> I have the Campagnolo H tool and take them with me if I am looking to buy a frame or bicycle.


Everyone has $500 to put into a tool that would be of use once in a lifetime unless you're a frame builder.


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## Tom Kunich (Oct 16, 2002)

battler2 said:


> This is where I disagree, and it's something that defines Australia. Over here we really don't care about qualifications and supposed experience, as long as you can do the job you're hired.
> 
> However, the key point (which you mention), is some industries are regulated by academic qualifications and mandatory certifications and others are not. That's why I'd also call you a professional social worker and volunteers, just volunteers.
> 
> ...


I'm absolutely certain that someone can tell you you're stupid at least a dozen more times. As I said, in my experience frame misalignment doesn't act that way.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Tom Kunich said:


> Yes it would and those old steel bike would sometimes be WAY off but the cornering though slightly different was enough to bother with.
> 
> I do not think that this problem was with alignment. Or telling him he doesn't know what he's doing or that he used the wrong tool or any other stupid argument.


This website has gotten pretty slow, but I don't think responding to a five year old post is really passing on much knowledge. I'm somehow guessing that the guy has resolved the problem by now and moved on.


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