# Tour organizers have flattened the Tourmalet.



## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Putting the big mountains so far from the finish effectively takes them out of the race, turning the stage into a group sprint. Ho hum.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

agreed ... Tourmalet and sprinter's stage should never appear in the same sentence! At a minimum, they should have headed up the Soulor, gone down to Ferassières and then turned a hard right, gone up the Spandelles and finished in Argeles -- now that would have been an interesting stage!


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

TmaxR said:


> Putting the big mountains so far from the finish effectively takes them out of the race, turning the stage into a group sprint. Ho hum.


I think that is exactly what the tour organizers wanted -- keep the race together until the last week. If the plan works, the outcome of the race will be up in the air until the riders finish at Mt. Ventoux.


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## twiggy (Mar 23, 2004)

I agree.... whats the point of having mountains if the sprinters have so long to re-join the group after?? I think it would have been better to have more mountaintop finishes AND the Ventoux at the end....


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

lameness.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

I will not watch. It's an insult to the mountains.

There is no sponsor city on top of a mountain and that is the achilles heel of the TDF.

fc


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## rogger (Aug 19, 2005)

francois said:


> I will not watch. It's an insult to the mountains.
> 
> There is no sponsor city on top of a mountain and that is the achilles heel of the TDF.
> 
> fc


Félix Lévitan is spinning in his grave...


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

francois said:


> There is no sponsor city on top of a mountain and that is the achilles heel of the TDF.
> 
> fc


But all of the mountop finishes are on the territory of municipalities that therefore pay for the slot in the TDF schedule. And they win out since many fans will stay in their town and spend mucho €'s there on their way, up, down or overnight.


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## teoteoteo (Sep 8, 2002)

philippec said:


> But all of the mountop finishes are on the territory of municipalities that therefore pay for the slot in the TDF schedule. And they win out since many fans will stay in their town and spend mucho €'s there on their way, up, down or overnight.


Just think of how many bowls of delicious potage were served at the Bar/Rest Tourmalet at the Summit today...


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

Phiippe gets it....it's about money.

Mountain top finish = no money from a town to "Host" the finish.

Len


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

teoteoteo said:


> Just think of how many bowls of delicious potage were served at the Bar/Rest Tourmalet at the Summit today...


ka-ching!!

and newspapers distributed!


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## MarkS (Feb 3, 2004)

Len J said:


> Phiippe gets it....it's about money.
> 
> Mountain top finish = no money from a town to "Host" the finish.
> 
> Len


Unless the mountain top has a ski station on or near it. That why the a stage a few years ago ended at La Mongie, rather than at the summit of the Tourmalet. As much as the Dutch love Alpe d'Huez, I am sure that the Organization would not love it as much as it does were it not for the fact that there is a ski station at the top.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

This Tour seems to be a little 'easier' with less mountaintop finishes.

Also, the Pyrenees seem to be taken out of the equation entirely with the stages basically becoming a normal stage due to the long descent and then flat ground before the line.

That's kinda shameful IMO but oh well, it's still been some good racing though without doubt. 

Although, I never thought Pyrenean stages would be boring. And I never thought flat stages offer much excitement either. So....


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## j3fri (Dec 31, 2006)

boring race today,...


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Len J said:


> Phiippe gets it....it's about money.
> 
> Mountain top finish = no money from a town to "Host" the finish.
> 
> Len


Maybe I wasn't clear. All finishes take place on the territory of a town/village/municipality and the latter must pay the TDF for that priviledge.

The race finishes on top of the Mont Ventoux? -- the towns of Bedoin and Beaumont du Ventoux (on whose territory the Mt. Serein Ski station lies) pay since the mountaintop belongs to both of them, finish atop Luz-Ardiden, the town of Luz St. Sauveur pays, etc, etc. and they do pay b/c they reap benefits. Only very rarely has the TDF finished atop a mountain and the town on whose territory the finish is has not paid (too small). That is why, as Mark points out, many finishes are in ski stations. (the towns on which they are sited being the ones who pay).

So someone is still paying to "snag" a RDF mountaintop finish.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

I had the day off for this? 

Bleh. 

Nice scenery though. Yay.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

uzziefly said:


> This Tour seems to be a little 'easier' with less mountaintop finishes.
> 
> Also, the Pyrenees seem to be taken out of the equation entirely with the stages basically becoming a normal stage due to the long descent and then flat ground before the line.


I guess we should get used to the first mountain range stages, whatever it is for a given year (Pyrenees or Alps), to be ho-hum. This is partially in response to the super-teams who can lock down the race after the first mountains and turn it into a formula-based yawner for the remaining two weeks. 

Right now, we still have a race after the first rest day, the crowds were still huge today despite the lack of drama, a French team has yellow, and the French have three stages. ASO is probably happy with all of this!


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## DZfan14 (Jul 6, 2009)

Seems like a waste of some key terrain. A climb like that shouldn't be neutralized by the peloton like it was.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

uzziefly said:


> This Tour seems to be a little 'easier' with less mountaintop finishes.


3 mountain finishes this year. 
3 mountain finishes last year. 
Just as the number of mountain finishes seems to be constant, so is the number of people talking about how it was so much more exciting in the previous tours. 
FWIW, last year there was a lot of "worry" on CSC discussion boards that there were not enough mountain finishes for sastre and that the tour was too easy that year.


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## Len J (Jan 28, 2004)

philippec said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear. All finishes take place on the territory of a town/village/municipality and the latter must pay the TDF for that priviledge.
> 
> The race finishes on top of the Mont Ventoux? -- the towns of Bedoin and Beaumont du Ventoux (on whose territory the Mt. Serein Ski station lies) pay since the mountaintop belongs to both of them, finish atop Luz-Ardiden, the town of Luz St. Sauveur pays, etc, etc. and they do pay b/c they reap benefits. Only very rarely has the TDF finished atop a mountain and the town on whose territory the finish is has not paid (too small). That is why, as Mark points out, many finishes are in ski stations. (the towns on which they are sited being the ones who pay).
> 
> So someone is still paying to "snag" a RDF mountaintop finish.


I didn't realize that...thanks.

Len


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

MarkS said:


> I think that is exactly what the tour organizers wanted -- keep the race together until the last week. If the plan works, the outcome of the race will be up in the air until the riders finish at Mt. Ventoux.


Perhaps, but by that logic the "ideal Tour" should be 17 sprinter stages, followed by a mountain and ITT. This should keep the race together until last possible moment. Wouldn't that be exciting?


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

den bakker said:


> 3 mountain finishes this year.
> 3 mountain finishes last year.
> Just as the number of mountain finishes seems to be constant, so is the number of people talking about how it was so much more exciting in the previous tours.
> FWIW, last year there was a lot of "worry" on CSC discussion boards that there were not enough mountain finishes for sastre and that the tour was too easy that year.


Last year tour was the most boring in over a decade.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

Change how the Tours are scored, maybe? Give some time bonus for summits to the GC..then they might race for the summit and still let the organizers make money by giving the finish line to the biggest bidding city/town...

The way the grand tours have evolved it is like two different races run at the same time...The sprinters suffer through the mountain stages and the climbers stay out of the way for the flat stages..But only the climbers have a chance in the GC...

of course, changing anything in bike racing is hard..we're such a bunch of conservatives..


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Change how the Tours are scored, maybe? Give some time bonus for summits to the GC..then they might race for the summit and still let the organizers make money by giving the finish line to the biggest bidding city/town...
> 
> The way the grand tours have evolved it is like two different races run at the same time...The sprinters suffer through the mountain stages and the climbers stay out of the way for the flat stages..But only the climbers have a chance in the GC...
> 
> of course, changing anything in bike racing is hard..we're such a bunch of conservatives..


Why would ASO change an extremely successful business model?


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Umm. I didn't see any sprinters at the end of this stage, cept for Friere, and he didn't win. I think the Tourmalet did quite an adequate job of keeping it from being sprinter's stage.


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

I got up at four am, that sucked for drama, but it will tire everyone out for the last week, which will be brutal!


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## SeeVee (Sep 25, 2005)

moonmoth said:


> I guess we should get used to the first mountain range stages, whatever it is for a given year (Pyrenees or Alps), to be ho-hum. This is partially in response to the super-teams who can lock down the race after the first mountains and turn it into a formula-based yawner for the remaining two weeks.
> 
> Right now, we still have a race after the first rest day, the crowds were still huge today despite the lack of drama, a French team has yellow, and the French have three stages. ASO is probably happy with all of this!



French schmench. It is all about opportunism. The teams that can win GC in Paris see no reason to grab yellow now. There is no finish thus far or in the near future that will allow a GC contender to put 1.5 minutes or more on the nearest contender so why do it.

Let the opportunists have their day in the sun and just wait until the final week for the big teams to make their moves. 

It all makes for a predictable and boring tour.


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## SeeVee (Sep 25, 2005)

Kram said:


> Umm. I didn't see any sprinters at the end of this stage, cept for Friere, and he didn't win. I think the Tourmalet did quite an adequate job of keeping it from being sprinter's stage.



Disagree. 

The way the stage was designed it catered to the opportunist who was several minutes down and would never be a GC contender to get in the break and not have to worry about being chased down. 

BORING!

Not enjoying this tour at all.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SeeVee said:


> Disagree.
> 
> The way the stage was designed it catered to the opportunist who was several minutes down and would never be a GC contender to get in the break and not have to worry about being chased down.
> 
> BORING!


Would you rather watch Lance winning stages this early left and right? I like seeing new names on the podium rather than the same old crew of big names again and again.


To each their own. There's still 2 more weeks of racing.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

I agree. Lance's wins were mostly boring. This race at least has you guessing for a while. No fun if someone sews it up after a week.


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## SeeVee (Sep 25, 2005)

Marc said:


> Would you rather watch Lance winning stages this early left and right? I like seeing new names on the podium rather than the same old crew of big names again and again.
> 
> 
> To each their own. There's still 2 more weeks of racing.



Where did I say "Lance" and why does it have to be either or?

I want a battle between GC contenders. I dont want to see pack fodder winning stages. (as an anology: it is like watching pre-season football games - who gives a damn who wins?)

I want teams mano a mano to protect their lead and/or challenge the leader.


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## philippec (Jun 16, 2002)

Gnarly 928 said:


> still let the organizers make money by giving the finish line to the biggest bidding city/town...
> 
> ..


towns in france don't bid to get the tdf -- they pay a flat rate so that small towns are not penalised


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

philippec said:


> agreed ... Tourmalet and sprinter's stage should never appear in the same sentence! At a minimum, they should have headed up the Soulor, gone down to Ferassières and then turned a hard right, gone up the Spandelles and finished in Argeles -- now that would have been an interesting stage!


They should make every stage medium-lumpy. Like the spring classics. That way the GC boys have to work throughout the stage, instead of only up the last climb, or the only climb. 

They had the right idea with the stage finishing in Autun in the '06 Tour, when Pozzato won and Vino lost 5 hours. 

In these breakaway stages, the GC contenders all wait for each other and just have their teams control the time gaps. Well, except for Cadel Evans. When he's the most aggressive of the GC stages, you know that you have a serious problem in stage designs. 

In a stage race you have races within the race (for the GC princes, the breakaway specialists, and for the sprinters) and the way that these races don't overlap much means that at any time, only a fraction of the peloton is actually doing something interesting. Why not just split the race into these parts then? This is one thing I like the least about the grand tours, especially le Tour. 

But who can blame the GC contenders who are not yet in desperado mode? They know that they have very few opportunities to take time against each other. Plus whatever they try to do, they face the combined strength of several teams with GC pretenders. If the parcours is made more challenging with many openings, then they'll take more risks. Hence I think that medium-lumpy with ascending finishes would be great. 

Ho hum. I'm just waiting for this parade to be over and for the Giro di Lombardia to come!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

SeeVee said:


> Where did I say "Lance" and why does it have to be either or?


Because judging how Astana has been riding for the last week-if you had your GC contender stages-that is who it would be.

I prefer not being able to guess who will win stages-it makes the finishes far more interesting when it isn't the same 5 people always being led out or dropping people from the front. As I said to each their own. Granted it makes the mountain racing less interesting on a day like today when the pack says "why bother chasing?", and wheel sucks until it is too late.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Yea this stage was a snore. They went up the Tourmalet at such a slow speed (for them) that I turned the feed off once they got near the top and realized nobody was going to increase the pace, say nothing of an attack. TDF course is lame compared to the Giro.


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## werdna (Feb 6, 2004)

Andorra SUCKED.


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## hyperborea (Jul 12, 2009)

*Shameful*

Yeah, what a shame to put these great cols in the middle of stages. Just seems to encourage small breakaways of the less relevant riders. Surely not very exciting finishes. 

The flat stages ending in a bunch sprint are far more enjoyable and that's coming from someone who loves the mountain stages.

The first two weeks are not going to do much for TV ratings in this country. But I'll be watching even though. The scenery just by itself is worth it in HD. And Phil's commentary is fun as usual.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

I'm ashamed to admit I turned the TV off after the descent over Tourmalet and went for a bike ride.  

Went up a small one mile climb at about 10% and found I skipped up it much faster than the last time, and in a bigger gear. I think could've beaten the entire peloton up the Tourmalet today.


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## hawker12 (Oct 19, 2003)

Agreed. Boring stage...sort of wasted the mountain I think. Boy, the crowds were fantastic though.


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## JohnHenry (Aug 9, 2006)

I don't like the mountains in the middle. Mainly because the GC contenders know they can't do anything and don't have to do anything. Snorefest.

I did enjoy pellizotii & fedrigo work it out together fo rthe finish.


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## culdeus (May 5, 2005)

Real boring last few stages. It's a shame when the flat stages are the ones where things happen, and if it wasn't for the wind the only thing of note would be conty putting 18s into armstrong on one minor climb.


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## cyclejim (Mar 31, 2004)

The fast forward button got used on my DVR many times during today's stage. The only thing I regret about that is I just know I am missing nice little anecdotes from Paul and Phil every now and then.


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## swuzzlebubble (Aug 4, 2008)

If they had made the first sprint stage (just ahead of first climb) worth big points (like a stage win) it could have opened things up as it would have put some heat into the stage early and perhaps provided a launch for an attack by GC hopefuls. Teams other than Astana likely on the front too.

Also on topic, the early TTT has set the tone for this week.
In theory a bunch of GC riders have reason to go on attack but to make up time; but I guess doing it in week 1 or 2 of a 3 week event is like going for it on the first climb of a three climb stage.


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

I think I heard/read somewhere a year or two ago that part of the doping problem was that the Tour was too f-ing hard to race clean, so they were easing up a little.

Like I said, just something I heard or read.

Prob doesn't make sense because whoever is doping is still going to dope, as it's about the competition.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

Yea, they should've just made this stage a double point sprinters stage. Would help balance the true sprinters with the sprinters who can climb. Of course, I'm singling out Cavendish here.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Glad there's a thread on this. It's hard to believe that 3 days in the Pyrenees had virtually no effect on the race, with a completely neutered climb up the Tourmalet, no less. I realize it's early in the race, but when it's in the mountains, I want to see a finish in the mountains. I'm all about an exciting race, but geez, what a snoozefest.


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

That's because they all would have been following your "wheel", sweetie:wink:


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

OK,


It's hard to follow Kram after that.

but,

What started as a potentially exciting TdF for this year has turned deadly dull.

I really see little point in watching it this entire week and will probably just wait for the final TT and Ventoux before I turn it on again.

I have long been of the opinion that the Giro is a far more exciting race and I prefer to follow it, which is saying something since we don't even get TV coverage of it in Canada.


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*saw the profile*

slept in
woke up at normal waking time to see Hincapie's descent
glad I didn't set an alarm
have to say, most boring 3 days in the Pyr that I can recall


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

As predicted by the the announcers, today's rest day was more eventful  .

Ahh, I crack myself up.

fc


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## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

francois said:


> As predicted by the the announcers, today's rest day was more eventful  .


Did Contador grab more time?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 2001)

TmaxR said:


> Did Contador grab more time?


He made a break for the oatmeal at breakfast and gave the old man the LooK.

fc


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## Gripped (Nov 27, 2002)

MarkS said:


> I think that is exactly what the tour organizers wanted -- keep the race together until the last week. If the plan works, the outcome of the race will be up in the air until the riders finish at Mt. Ventoux.


What he said.

The organizers want to keep things close until the Ventoux where fireworks will fire (they hope). The mountain stages are there to soften up everyone.

Yesterday's stage did produce some exciting stories. I was very impressed that Friere managed to make it over the Tourmalet and be a factor in the finish. Too bad for him they couldn't quite pull back the break. And how about another French victory? The home country must be pretty excited.

Sure, we all love mountain top finishes. But a stage race a story -- and stories aren't merely a series of climaxes.

And I'm sure that the Tour could find plenty of mountain top municipalities ready to pay for a finish -- that's not the reason there are three of them (and two relatively easy ones) this Tour.

You guys get to watch 21 races over 23 days and you are complaining? You get 21 chances to watch a cast of riders try for a win. You get to watch the jersey competitions shape up. You get to guess at strategy and see those plans unfold or unravel.

Now quit your whining!


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## Kram (Jan 28, 2004)

Can I "bad post" myself?


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## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

francois said:


> He made a break for the oatmeal at breakfast and gave the old man the LooK.
> 
> fc


As much as hate to say it...LOL.


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## TmaxR (Aug 31, 2008)

Gripped said:


> What he said.
> 
> The organizers want to keep things close until the Ventoux where fireworks will fire (they hope). The mountain stages are there to soften up everyone.
> 
> ...


"Will the lumbering peloton pick up enough speed on the downhill to catch the two in the breakaway who are a quarter hour down the GC? Stay glued to your screen for the exciting conclusion!"

That's not what I want to see in a mountain stage. I, for one, don't want to wait for Ventoux for fireworks at the top of the GC. If the contenders from the teams other than Astana don't do anything before Ventoux, then the only fireworks are going to be within Astana.


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