# Campagnolo 11 speed and Wheel Compatibility



## Clifford Feldman

I started the year with a Scott Addict R1 frame, a Dura Ace 7900 group and a set of Reynold's MV32UL Clinchers. The bike was fast, light and worked flawlessly.

I have been a life-long Campagnolo rider. After 500 miles, I failed to adjust to the Shimano shifting, decided go back to Campagnolo and splurged on a Super Record group.

The Reynold's wheelset uses a DT 240 rear hub. It was easy to buy and mount the Campagnolo compatible freehub body and mating axle end. I mounted the SR 11-25 cassette without any drama. The cassette mounted on the body without any spacers and used all the space capacity of the body.

To make a long story short...... I have been dealing with many problems and slowly solving them. However, there is an issue with my Reynolds MV32UL wheels. I've read that similar issues exist with Mavic wheels too. 

Presently, there is less than a 1 mm clearance between the cassette lock-ring and the drop-out of the Scott Addict. When the chain is properly positioned on the large cog (25t) and the small chainring (34t), the DERAILLEUR CAGE MAKES CONTACT WITH THE SPOKES. If a shim is placed between the cassette and the flange of the freehub body, the lock-ring overlaps the bearing surface of the axle. 

I have learned that the actual width of the 11 speed cog set is wider than the Campagnolo 10 speed spacing. They both occupy the same space where they contact the free hub body, However, the alloy carriers of largest cog group curve outward toward the spokes to create additional gear spacing. 

I am considering a spacer shim between the flange and the cassette body AND adding a washer on the right axle end, but I am not happy or comfortable with stretching the frame and enlarging the distance between the dropouts. I have sent an E-mail to Reynolds' tech support asking for their input, but have not received a response, to date. 

BTW, when I mounted the rear derailleur to the hanger, it was necessary to add a spacer washer because it was not possible to align the small cog with the upper jockey pulley. The RD was too close to the 11t cog. It was impossible to achieve smooth shifting across the cassette with this misalignment.

So, does anyone have experience or a perspective to share?

BETTER YET, WHAT REAR WHEEL, CASSETTE SIZE AND HUB ARE YOU USING? WHAT SPECIAL ACCOMODATIONS HAVE YOU MADE WITH SPACERS, SHIMS AND WASHERS. PLEASE SHARE WHAT WHEELS, AT THIS TIME, DO NOT WORK WITH CAMPAGNOLO 11 SPEED.

Following is something dealing with Mavic's perspective of the compatibility issue with their wheels.
http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/2009/04/campagnolo-11-speed-and-mavic-wheels.html


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## C-40

*my experience...*

No problems at all with Mavic Ksyriums, Fulcrum Zero or Powertap hubs and 11 speed.


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## Clifford Feldman

C-40, Did you need any spacers or other accomodations when you used the Ksyriums or Fulcrum Zero's?

My 1300 gm Reynolds MV32UL clinchers were a significant investment of $$$. I was informed, at the time I was considering the switch to Campagnolo 11, that the kit was reasonably priced, almost fool-proof and needed no spacers or re-dishing. The assumption was that 10 and 11 occupied the same space on the freehub body.

The setup currently is workable but less than perfect. All gears alignments are perfect except engagement in the 25 tooth cog. That pairing is noisy. I can tune the noise out with the stop screw, but the cage gets too close to the drive-side spokes where they cross.

I just bought a set of 2007 Ksyrium SL wheels and converted them to a Mavic's Campagnolo compatible body. I have not mounted a cassette on them yet. I was hoping to pick up a Chorus 11 speed, steel tooth cassette.

C-40, do you know of a contact where I can buy an 11-25 Chorus 11 speed cassette at the best price?

BTW, When did the Ksyrium SL wheelset start using a reduced rim depth for the front wheel? I am dissappointed that the total weight of my 2007 SL wheelset weighs 1575 gms. I was expecting a weight of 1480.


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## C-40

*info...*

All of my wheels accept 11 speed cassettes with no spacer and the chain isn't even close to the spokes; there's plenty of room. Edit: My powertap hub does leave little room for the chain, on the largest cog (a 25T). The heads-in spokes get real close, but still no problem.

Try Shiny Bikes or Ribble in the UK for good prices on Campy and many other items like tires. You have to deduct 17.5% for the european VAT that is included in prices at Shiny. After that, they're slightly cheaper than Ribble, who is also out of stock on most items.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/ro...Campagnolo-11-Spd-Chorus-Cassette/CAMPCASS700

http://www.shinybikes.com/bikes/campagnolo-11-spd-chorus-cassette-2009.html


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## Nielly

the DERAILEUR CAGE MAKES CONTACT WITH THE SPOKES.

Just for kicks, check the deraileur alignment. See if it's not bent in a bit?


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## ronderman

C-40 so you seem to be the guy on campy. I love it - after over 10 years of dura ace I got a chorus 11 speed groupset and love it. Way better than shimano. Here is my deal - and I posted this prior - my 12-25 works fine, my 11-23 does not. I'm trying to fit them on a 2008 ksyrium wheel and the 11-23 either rubs at the spokes or rubs at the frame with the 11 too tight against the frame. I've tried with spacers - without spacers - can't do it. 

Now I do think the 11-23 is a 2009 and the 12-25 is a 2010 and I did, at one point, have the 11-23 working fine, but after a 8 months, or the winter, I went to change from my 25 to the 23 and can not get it to work.

Ideas?


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## Clifford Feldman

Is anyone aware of any reliable and cheaper on-line bike equipment sellers that are actually located on the European continent? I am looking for an opportunity to find a bargain(??) based upon today's weaker Euro.


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## Clifford Feldman

Ronderman,
I am assuming that your 2008 Ksyrium is the same as my 2007 Ksyrium SL in terms of spoke type and dish. At the rim, your spokes are located on the centerline of the rear wheel. At the the drive-side, the other end of the spoke is tapering outward as it approaches and meets the hub flange. The closer the spoke gets to the hub flange, the closer it gets to the drive mechanisms. The pulley mechanism with adjust its vertical position over the cog with the chain. The radius and diameter of a 23 tooth cog is less than a 25 tooth cog. That puts the end of the 23 teeth closer to the hub flange and therefore closer to the derailleur cage. The 25 tooth will be in proximaty to the spokes closer to the centerline of the wheel. A 27 tooth cog will, likewise have more space. 
Here is a hot selling item for Mavic wheels these days:
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/r...vic-campagnolo-11-speed-spacer-6310.30.1.html

C-40, What size 11 speed cassette are you using with your Ksyriums? Is it Ksyrium equipe, Elite or SL?


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## C-40

*info...*

My Ksyriums are the SL model with aluminum spokes and I use an 11-25 cassette.


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## Clifford Feldman

C-40, thanks for the tip on shinybikes.com. Great pricing. I wish I had connected with this prior to buying my Super Record group. It would have saved some serious money.


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## chas0039

Just a comment on what I have found with Ribble. They have a very strange pricing structure on shipping to the USA. They seem to jump the cost considerably after about $125 and I have often found a better price with two shipments costing less than a single shipment. Most often I have found their shipping costs are substantially less than Shineybikes.


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## ericjacobsen3

I noticed the same thing. Often better to make 2 shipments under that limit.


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## Clifford Feldman

*Hats Off to Nielly!*

Thank you, Nielly.
I went back to the shop where I bought my Scott Addict R1 Frameset (last month) and asked them to check the alignment of the rear derailleur hanger. It was NOT properly aligned. In short, it was the reason the derailleur cage could not be properly adjusted without hitting the spokes of the Reynolds MV32UL wheel. For the first time, rear shifting is flawless from the 11 to the 25 tooth. My wheel is safe. 

When the frame was received, it was brand new, carefully packaged and who would have guessed that the hanger was "off." At present, shifting is perfect on both derailleurs.

I spoke with Dan at Campagnolo in California. I need to share some misconceptions that are being advanced on this forum.

-Front Shifter/Front Derailleur Adjustment of 11 speed: 3 (THREE) CLICKS to more from the small ring to the big ring. Use of a FD barrel adjuster is highly recommended. Using 4 clicks provides too much lateral movement and results in lots of trimming.

-Super Record Ultra Torque Cranks: 1 mm of lateral movement following assembly is normal. The crank WILL move laterally when force is applied to the center of the non-drive side. It is the compression of the wavy washer. There is no deflection under normal pedaling force. Ceramic bearings of SR can be lightly oiled but no heavy lubes. Grease attracts and traps grit. Anti-seize lube is used where the races meet the cups.
Adding additional washers or increasing spring tension will, according to Dan, damage the bearing.


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## cendres

Clifford Feldman said:


> Is anyone aware of any reliable and cheaper on-line bike equipment sellers that are actually located on the European continent? I am looking for an opportunity to find a bargain(??) based upon today's weaker Euro.


Try xxcycle.com?


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## orange_julius

C-40 said:


> No problems at all with Mavic Ksyriums, Fulcrum Zero or Powertap hubs and 11 speed.


For the benefit of readers who may stumble upon this thread in the future, I confirm no problems with 11-sp drivetrain on the following wheels: 
* DT Swiss RR 1450 (with 2x spoking on rear, 240S hub, DT Swiss R1.1 rim). 
* Recent (2008?) vintage of Campagnolo Khamsin. 
* Recent (2006?) vintage of Campagnolo Neutron. 

I will next try on my 3x Open Pro / Record hub combo and report the findings soon. 

FYI, I tried a Cyfac frame and an early 90s Peter Mooney frame (after re-setting the rear triangle spacing).


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## Nielly

Clifford Feldman said:


> Thank you, Nielly.


No problem, I would like to claim sheer brilliance on my part but actually I just went through this recently with a new set of wheels and found the derailleur cage rubbing on the spokes and was puzzled as well for a bit. On my frame (an Orbea) the hangar seems real easy to bend (as part of the design I suppose) and probably got bent a bit when I shipped it on a trip. By the way these wheels are Record hubs laced 3x to FIR tubulars which are now on my new ride with Record 11. The drivetrain seems fine and I will be giving a good workout this weekend.


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## Clifford Feldman

*Rear Derailleur Alignment*

I used the original shop where I purchased the frame. I knew that they would do a proper procedure given their warranty responsibility. It was an additional 90 minutes of driving.
The mechanic checked the alignment with the bike assembled and wheel in position. Then removed the hanger, placed it in a vise with aluminum jaws. He bent the hanger, remounted it, rechecked and removed it and repeated the process. He repeated the process 3 or 4 times until it was perfect.

It is a relief to be able to confidently use my Reynolds wheelset with the Campy 11 group.

Again, Thanks for your great suggestion.


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## C-40

*interesting...*

The point of using the Park alignment tool is to be able to bend the hanger while it's still on the bike. As long as the skewer is clamped tight, there is no need to remove the hanger. The Park tool is supposed to be used to align the hanger. I've used mine on all three of my LOOK carbon frames with no problem.

http://www.parktool.com/products/documents/DAG-2_Instruction_201063_87007.pdf


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## tom_h

Clifford Feldman said:


> ... I spoke with Dan at Campagnolo in California. I need to share some misconceptions that are being advanced on this forum.
> 
> -Front Shifter/Front Derailleur Adjustment of 11 speed: 3 (THREE) CLICKS to more from the small ring to the big ring. Use of a FD barrel adjuster is highly recommended. Using 4 clicks provides too much lateral movement and results in lots of trimming.
> ...


That just seems WRONG ... you will lose, not gain trimming ability.

Assume the chain is on small chain ring, FD is fully inboard, then the 4 clicks provide this function:

0 : cage fully inboard, chain on small ring, cage position optimum for _larger_ cogs
1st click: cage moves outward, chain stays on small ring, trims FD for _smaller_ cogs.
2nd click: begins shifting to big ring.
3rd click: chain fully on big ring, cage position optimum for _larger_ cogs.
4th click: cage moves outward, trims FD for _smaller_ cogs.

With just 3 clicks, you will lose position corresponding to click 1 or click 4. 
I suppose position 2 seems wasted, but you can't just "eliminate" it.


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## C-40

*agree...*

There is no way that 3 clicks will provide adequate travel from an 11 speed RD. Working from the fully right, big ring position, the first push of the thumb button will trim the cage to the left, for use with larger cogs. The second click of the thumb button should drop the chain onto the little ring. The next two are required to move the cage far enough to the left to avoid chain rub in the little ring and largest cog. I set my low limit screw so there is very little clearance with the chain in the fully left position.

I've never dropped a chain yet, with my 50/34 cranks.

Three clicks used to work with 2006 or older FDs, but it's been four clicks since 2007.


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## tom_h

C-40 said:


> ... I've never dropped a chain yet, with my 50/34 cranks...


I've dropped the chain inboard a few times, and recently installed a "chain catcher", and have been happily trouble-free. 
Chance of a dropped chain possibly depends on chainstay length, angle of the chain, what cogs you're in, and whether simultaneous frt and rear shifts are attempted 

There's an RBR member at the Specialized sub-forum that makes a nice catcher for braze-on FD and oversize bottom bracket, when a Deda "dog fang" device won't fit. Rotor and K-Edge are two commercial mfrs of catchers for braze-on FD.


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## Clifford Feldman

*I stand by 3 clicks, unequivocally*

Having done both setups, I can absolutely state that a 3 click setup (4 positions) is correct and most functional. Moreover, it is the technical advice that is provided by Calrlsbad, California-based Campagnolo Technical Support. I'll take this opportunity to "name-drop." Consult with Dan the Service Manager (760-931-0106). 

First, front derailleur position is really important. The longest portion of the outside cage must be parallel with the large chain ring. It is essential to identify it because the outside cage is not on the same plane from front to back.

With no cable tension and the chain on the small chain ring and largest sprocket, set the inside stop screw to provide 1.5 mm of clearance between the chain and the inside surface of the F-derailleur cage.

Provide tension to the cable. Shift to the large chain ring and the smallest sprocket. Set the outside stop screw so the outside cage clears the chain by no more than 1mm. The chain can not rub the cage when in top gear.

If you are using 11 speed Campagnolo components, (front derailleur, crankset, chain and shifters) the lateral distance will be traversed in 3 clicks (4 positions.) The use of a barrel tension adjuster is really helpful to make sure that enough tension is on the cable to enable the shifter to "catch" the 3rd click.

When on the small chain ring no trim adjustment is necessary from the 11th thru 3rd sprocket (13-tooth thru 25-tooth.) If you want or need to cross-strap the chain while on the small chain ring, one lever click will allow the rider to cleanly engage the 1st two sprockets (11-tooth and 12-tooth) (Bad form) 

When on the large chain ring no trim adjustment is necessary from the smallest (1st) sprocket thru the 9th. Likewise, if you choose to cross-strap the chain, use of the two largest sprockets can be accomplished without noise by one click of the lever. (again, bad form)

4 clicks are too many and require the mechanic to provide too much clearance between the chain and inside cage and, moreover, too much clearance between the chain and the outside of the cage.

The 4-click setup covers too much side-to-side travel requiring more cage centering to eliminate chain rub and the resulting noise. 

Bottom line: 4 Clicks is wrong. It may be masking the problem of having inadequate tension on the front derailleur cable resulting in sub standard travel. 

Nuff said.


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## tom_h

*I stand by 4 clicks ...*

Clifford,

Using my "click numbering" system from before for convenience, your 3 click setup apparently behaves like this:

*0 *: cage fully inboard, chain on small ring, cage position optimum for _larger_ cogs
*1st click*: cage moves outward, chain stays on small ring, trims FD for 2 _smallest_ cogs.
*2nd click*: begins shifting to big ring.
*3rd click*: chain fully on big ring, cage position can only be optimized for EITHER larger OR smaller cogs, but not both -- pick ONE.
*4th click*: *DELETED* <S>cage moves outward, trims FD for _smaller_ cogs</S>.

You write:
"_When on the large chain ring no trim adjustment is necessary from the smallest (1st) sprocket thru the 9th. Likewise, if you choose to cross-strap the chain, use of the two largest sprockets can be accomplished without noise by *one click* of the lever_ "

I don't see how this could work with your setup. That "one click" corresponds to 3rd to 2nd position above, meaning the chain starts to fall off the big ring and shift to small ring -- the _cage is approximately 1/2 way between the rings_. The chain will be grinding against cage. 

You've lost ability to trim in the big ring. 

Now , it's possible this will work on some, maybe even many frames, particularly long chainstay frames. But it positively won't work on the 405mm stays of my Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL2. 

When I first mis-routed my FD cable, I only had 3 clicks, read here:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=171968
FD shifting and trimming "sort of " worked, but could not function or be trimmed in all gear combos, without cage rubbing.

Granted, we're not _supposed_ to routinely ride in the extreme gear positions on a continuous basis, but sometimes you want to, either because it's a race situation, or you don't want to waste time shifting the FD and lose momentum. 

Real life example, I was in a TT that was flat for first 0.5 mile, then a sharp 180º turn, then immediately a 6% grade for next 2 miles. No way was I going to risk fooling with my FD on the U-turn transition to uphill, so I raced first 0.5 mile in a 34/12 or 34/11 gear.

What the 4 click setup provides is:

5 total positions, with 4 total clicks up or down.
-- 2 available cage positions on small chainring, for trimming.
-- 2 cage positions on large ring.
-- 1 intermediate position between rings, which only comes into play when doing an actual shift.


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## ericjacobsen3

I started set up with 4 clicks/ 5 positions. The clicks were too far apart to trim on the front ring without the outer set screw leaving the lever only partly seated in a click. Result was the cable would slip out of the outermost click often and of course a need to trim on half the cassette.

I then set up with no trim in the big ring and the click centered to not rub from the smallest cog to the second largest (all cogs one should use in the big ring). No fder rub on my Madone.

One note is that the plastic guide inside the derailleur cage has about a 45 degree slope. If you set the derailleur 1mm above the teeth you might have rub. Setting 2mm above buys you almost an extra 1mm of clearance to avoid rub.

I cannot say for sure, but given how far apart the clicks are, I can only conclude that Campy intended there to be no trim in the large ring. Once I figured out their intent, I have been able to get the front derailler to work well.

The one thing I cannot figure out is why Campy does not supply with the group fine tuning cable adjusters for what is now an indexed front derailleur. I don't even think they make them. Back with 8 speed and shifter bosses they would give you the built in adjusters. Aftermarket 3rd party adjusters also seem to spin both sides on the small cables.

Does anyone know if Campy makes the incline cable adjusters?


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## Nielly

ericjacobsen3 said:


> Does anyone know if Campy makes the incline cable adjusters?


Don't know about Campy but Jagwire makes inline adjusters.


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## Clifford Feldman

*Consult Campagnolo*

Unless I'm missing something, there is no reason to have the front derailleur cage travel any further outboard than a barely rub-free engagement of the large chain ring while on the smallest sprocket. Set the outer cage stop for that position. It is good for most of the sprocket range until the (9th possibly), 10th and 11th gears on the inboard side. To trim for those gears, one click of the thumb button will do it. It will take 2 more clicks to down shift to the small chain ring.

Converse is true for riding on the small chain ring. The only necessary gear trim for the 1st and 2nd sprockers is accomplished with a single click of the left lever.

3 clicks, 4 positions overall. 2 positions for each chainring. 

Tom, are you using any tension adjuster for the front drive train?


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## C-40

*me too....*

I still say that YOU are wrong. I have adequate cable tension, proven by the fact that the very first click of the finger lever moves the FD cage to the right, by a substantial amount. If the cable tension is too low, the cage just barely moves or does not move at all. That is a common mistake for the inexperienced mechanic to make.

I've been wrenching on bikes for over 25 years and I follow the same procedure that you outline. I get different results. Three clicks would never work.

About the need for a cable tension adjuster. With some frames it is just not practical, but there is a simple method to adjust the cable tension without it. All you have to do is deliberately turn the low limit screw in (CW) 1/4-3/4 turn, after you've set the low limit screw to barely clear the chain in the little ring and largest cog. Then attach the cable, pulling it tight with a pair of pliers, before tightening the clamp bolt. After the cable is clamped, return the low limit screw to it's correct postion. This procedure adds more cable tension than you would ever get by just pulling on the cable.

The cable must be routed properly at the clamp bolt - it goes over the small metal tab, then under the head of the clamp bolt. A lot of people made the mistake of routing the cable between the metal tab and the clamp bolt. This makes the FD work with only 3 clicks, but fouls up the trimming completely.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=171968


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## C-40

*info...*

Campy used to supply frame-mounted cable adjusters with each pair of ergo levers, but stopped that quite a few years ago because most frames no longer used the old-fashioned setup that also accomodates downtube shifters. They still sell those cable adjusters for old frames, but they would be of no value to most buyers. Most frames either have frame mounted adjusters from the factory, or are made such that only aftermarket in-line adjusters can be used.

http://www.cyclebasket.com/products.php?plid=m9b107s357p820

http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=A8068

What you describe is simply not having the cable tension and limit screws in sync. If the cable tension is too low, it might require 5 clicks because the first click of the finger lever is not moving the cage to the right. All it's doing is taking up cable slack. That low cable tension would not affect the first click of the thumb button from the fully-right big ring position. That thumb button click would still trim the FD to the left, if the big ring limit screw and and cable tension were in sync. Unless the shifter is defective, the only reason for a shifter to slip is not having the cable tension in sync with the limit screws. It slips because the limit screw is set too tight and not allowing the ball to seat fully into the detent in the indexing disc.

There is one other cause for the shifter to slip out of a click - improper attachment of the shift cable to the lever arm.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=171968


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## Clifford Feldman

*Call Campagnolo, please!*

There is no need to play resume tag. I have no intension of playing it or getting personal. I, like you, have been in this sport for a very long time and have built and maintained many bikes for myself, family and friends. 

C-40, you are intelligent and experienced. Many (including me) people on this forum look to you for technical advice and much of it is "spot-on." It is okay to be wrong once in a while. However, the problem here is that many look to you for technical guidance and your are disseminating bad advice regarding the adjustment of the front derailleur.

I am familiar with your method of tensioning a derailleur cable and it is fine for getting the slack from a cable line. It works fine for the rear derailleur and 10 speed variations from Campy and Shimano. It does not provide enough articulations for the current 11 speed Campagnolo front derailleurs. Being able to add or relieve slight amounts of cable tension is needed and makes a difference in performance.

I have no barrel adjusters on this Scott Addict frame. I added an inline adjust to the front cable line. It was not needed for the Dura Ace drive train. Believe me, I am enough of a weight-weenie to hate most everything that adds a gram to a bike. It has made a difference that has allowed 3-click with minimal amounts of trimming.

Please call Campagnolo. I provided the service manager's name and number on yesterday's post. They will discuss it with you at length. I expect that they will be as adamant about 3-clicks with you as they were with me. Remember, I followed your advice about 4 click setup and rode with it until I consulted with the definitive authority.

C-40, You usually support Campy's designs and technical information. That's why we ride this pricey gear. Why are you reluctant to do so regarding this?


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## tom_h

Clifford Feldman said:


> ...
> Tom, are you using any tension adjuster for the front drive train?


My S-Works Tarmac SL2 has a downtube mounted, cable adjuster for FD ... I do use it for setting the correct tension ... ie, 4 clicks 

Addendum: 
I know this doesn't "prove" anything, but ... There's an LBS in my area, that carries many high-end Italian bikes (eg, Pinarello, Colnago), and these bikes are usually Campy equipped. The mechanic at the shop recently retrofitted a Chorus 11sp gruppo to a riding partner's frame. The mechanic set up the FD for ... 4 clicks ;-) 
Friends and club members who don't do their own wrenching, often use this LBS (I do all my own work) ... IMO, the quality of the LBS's workmanship is pretty good ... I would trust them, if for some reason I wasn't able to do my own repair.

I have a hard time understanding why the Campy engineers would design an 11sp FD shifter with 4 clicks, only to have the 4th click subsequently disabled.


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## SwiftSolo

I did have trouble with my Mavic r-sys premiums (had to use a dremel tool). No problems with my powertap.


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## Nielly

Just to add more fuel to the fire. I just sprung for Record 11 and had the shop set it up. Took it out on it's maiden voyage today and the shop has the front derailleur set up with 3 clicks. It works as it should. I only get rubbing in the big chainring and two gears (25 and 27) in back that can't be trimmed out (I would not ride normally in those combos regardless). I'm going to leave as is for now and see how it goes.


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## Clifford Feldman

*Call Campagnolo M-F*

Tom,

Call Campagnolo at Calrlsbad, California-based Campagnolo Technical Support. Consult with Dan the Service Manager (760-931-0106). Be advised, there is more than one person by the name of Dan in the facility. I would have called them earlier if I knew how accessible they were.

Given the economy, monetary exchange rates and the current pro-Shimano mindset, Campagnolo has disappeared from most shop displays and shelves. There is a real lack of first-hand knowledge and skill in the LBS's regarding Campagnolo 11 speed stuff.

Get the info from the primary source. I had 8 questions for them and they answered each one thoughfully.

After you consult, if you still prefer to operate with 4 FD clicks and create a new performance model that will be a testament to your technical expertise. At least learn what the company techs advise. 

"Operators are awaiting your call!"


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## C-40

*???*



Clifford Feldman said:


> C-40, You usually support Campy's designs and technical information. That's why we ride this pricey gear. Why are you reluctant to do so regarding this?


The folks at Campy USA have often given out poor information that is incorrect. I could care less what they say and would never bother calling them. They are not infallible and I'll bet that some have far less knowledge and experience than I do. Campy also claims that the '07-'08 QS FD's don't work properly with the new ultrashift ergo levers. I find that they not only work fine, they will function perfectly with 11 speed. I've got one bike with this setup. They will also tell you not to use a 10 speed RD with 11 speed or an 11 speed RD with 10 speed. The former requires a minor mod on the cable clamp bolt and the later works as-is.

I'm a mechanical engineer who has been wrenching on bikes for over 25 years and Campy-only for the last 15 years, My setup method results in perfect functioning of the FD, so it's not wrong and needs no correction. IMO, Campy is wrong if they claim that using 4 clicks means there is too much clearance between the chain and left side of the cage. I set mine up the same as anyone should - with only about 1mm of clearance. If I move the finger lever by one click, I get chain rub in the largest cog. 

I have no need to add an in-line cable tensioning device. If I added more cable tension, at some point it will lift the lever arm off the little ring limit screw, render it useless and cause the chain to rub on the left side of the cage in the little ring and largest cog. As long as you have enough cable tension that the first click of the finger lever creates a distinct right trimming movement, then more cable tension is not needed.

FWIW, setting up a triple FD requires even more cable tension and I've done that with no cable tensioning device. With a triple FD it's quite common for people to set one up with too little tension and not be able to shift from the little ring to the middle ring with one sweep of the finger lever, using the maximum 5-click sweep. I've read of people using a triple for years, thinking it was normal to have to move the finger lever twice in order to make this shift.

I did some experimenting with one of my bikes just today. I found a couple of things. I was within 1/2 turn of bottoming out the little ring limit screw on my RD, when I get it set to have minimal clearance with the chain. While it would be nice to have a cable tension adjuster, I've not had any trouble getting the clicks to sync with the cable tension or getting enough cable tension. I've never had the situation where the shifter wouldn't stay in the last click of the finger lever, as some others have complained about. I produced a setup that had enough cable tension to provide adequate chain clearance in the big ring and smallest cog, using only three clicks, as you described. I could also use ALL of the cogs with the big ring and not get any chain rub on the FD. That's good because with so little clearance on the right side of the chain, there was NO useable trim click from the big ring. One click of the thumb button caused the right side of the FD cage to rub on the chain. If I loosened the big ring limit screw enough to get a trim click, it then took 4 clicks to cover the full range of travel.

I'll have to take this setup out on the road to report on how well it works, but that won't happen for some time since my left knee crapped out a few days ago. I've already gone to an ortho, got an MRI and expect that I'll be going in for my third surgery on my left knee. Until then, no more riding for me.


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## C-40

*Imo...*



Clifford Feldman said:


> Unless I'm missing something, there is no reason to have the front derailleur cage travel any further outboard than a barely rub-free engagement of the large chain ring while on the smallest sprocket. Set the outer cage stop for that position. It is good for most of the sprocket range until the (9th possibly), 10th and 11th gears on the inboard side. To trim for those gears, one click of the thumb button will do it. It will take 2 more clicks to down shift to the small chain ring.
> 
> Converse is true for riding on the small chain ring. The only necessary gear trim for the 1st and 2nd sprockers is accomplished with a single click of the left lever.
> 
> 3 clicks, 4 positions overall. 2 positions for each chainring.
> 
> Tom, are you using any tension adjuster for the front drive train?


If you set the big ring limit screw so the cage barely clears the chain in the smallest cog, then it will rub on the chain if you make even 1 click of the thumb button. If you loosen the screw only a little to allow a thumb button trim click, it will take 4 clicks to cover ther full range of travel.

I got my FD to work with 3 clicks, as you describe, except there is no trim click available from the thumb button - it causes chain rub. I also got it set so there was no chain rub in the big/big, so no trim click is needed. 

I haven't been able to test the 3-click setup out on the road, since a bum knee has me sidelined.


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## C-40

*more....*



Nielly said:


> Just to add more fuel to the fire. I just sprung for Record 11 and had the shop set it up. Took it out on it's maiden voyage today and the shop has the front derailleur set up with 3 clicks. It works as it should. I only get rubbing in the big chainring and two gears (25 and 27) in back that can't be trimmed out (I would not ride normally in those combos regardless). I'm going to leave as is for now and see how it goes.


I also got my FD to work with 3 clicks and the chain does not rub the FD cage, even in the big/big. The chain makes a lot more noise in the two largest cogs, but looking carefully, the noise is not due to chain rub on the FD cage, it's just the nasty angle.

If I push one click on the thumb button, the right side of the cage rubs the chain, so there is no trim click, but none is needed.


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## Nielly

C-40 said:


> I also got my FD to work with 3 clicks and the chain does not rub the FD cage, even in the big/big. The chain makes a lot more noise in the two largest cogs, but looking carefully, the noise if not due to chain rub on the FD cage, it's just the nasty angle.
> 
> If I push one click on the thumb button, the right side of the cage rubs the chain, so there is no trim click, but none is needed.


Would be curious to hear your opinion on the 3 click set-up when you get back on the road. I have 2 rides on mine so far and the front shifting seems fine, albeit a little heavier than I expected. My usual routine is have the shop do the initial set-up, as they do an ok job, then when I get home and have some time on the bike do the fine-tuning. I've already fiddled with the rear and the front may be next. One thing that has really impressed me so far on the Record 11 is the braking from the hoods. Strong and easy to modulate.


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## tom_h

*campy tech doc*

I came across this sheet,http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/TBSC-001-09_OPTIMIZING_SETTING_11S_TRANSMISSION_ENG-web.pdf
*Optimizing setting 11s transmission 
....​
*C-​*DERAIL: *A correct front derailleur registration allow to make the action between the small to the bigger gear at third click.

... ​​So sure, the shift from small to big ring occurs on the 3rd click of FD, but then the 4th click provides trimming -- cage can still move outboard 1 more click. 

I would bet the Campy service manager mis-understood this ...


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## ericjacobsen3

campy may have provided the fourth click to give the option of trim, or they might have been allowing for a triple that they don't actually offer at this time.

The bottom line is that everyone who has sincerely tried to center the derailleur to work on 9 or 10 cogs with the big ring has been able to avoid rub. If anyone wants to have trim when not needed (or perhaps needed on a flexy steel frame) you are welcome to set with 4 clicks and have the extra hassle of trim.


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## malanb

I'm having a bit of problems with the FD, I have now 4 position 2 for the small ring 2 for the big. on the big ring, the las position teh 4th would be only for the smaller cog 11th, mmm... the problems is that it sometimes drops back to 3 position or 3rd click. I kinda fixed it, but it took some time. now if it jumps back it the chain will not rub the cage.

I tryed 3 position it seemed to work but afterwards I just messed a bit with the limit screw and lost 3 clicks.then It took me like 20 min. to adjust it again 4 position, but it will always springs down if I move by bar from side to side wildly. If i adjust it in a way it would never spring back then the cage's plastic bit barely rubs or rubs a bit on my crank arm.
I might leave it just like this because 53 x 11 is used just for short intervals (sprint) and I think it will not spring down. but sometime I do 30 min interval low cadence workouts 53 x11. I must see what happnes. I ve been doing this workouts on my secoind bike


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## malanb

I'm having a bit of problems with the FD, I have now 4 position 2 for the small ring 2 for the big. on the big ring, the las position teh 4th would be only for the smaller cog 11th, mmm... the problems is that it sometimes drops back to 3 position or 3rd click. I kinda fixed it, but it took some time. now if it jumps back it the chain will not rub the cage.

I tryed 3 position it seemed to work but afterwards I just messed a bit with the limit screw and lost 3 clicks.then It took me like 20 min. to adjust it again 4 position, but it will always springs down if I move by bar from side to side wildly. If i adjust it in a way it would never spring back then the cage's plastic bit barely rubs or rubs a bit on my crank arm.
I might leave it just like this because 53 x 11 is used just for short intervals (sprint) and I think it will not spring down. but sometime I do 30 min interval low cadence workouts 53 x11. I must see what happnes. I ve been doing this workouts on my secoind bike


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## tom_h

malanb said:


> I'm having a bit of problems with the FD, I have now 4 position 2 for the small ring 2 for the big. on the big ring, the las position teh 4th would be only for the smaller cog 11th, mmm... the problems is that it sometimes drops back to 3 position or 3rd click. ....


I suspect the outboard limit screw (lower screw) is screwed in too much, not allowing the outboard shifter detent to fully engage. 

Evaluate Loosening (counter clockwise) that limit screw 1/2 turn , without making any other adjustments. The outboard cage position should be set by the shifter, not the limit screw.


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## malanb

I did set it as it said. about 1 mm from chain but the last click springs back. I when it came set from the lbs. and I fixed it because it was worse. if it loose the screw a bit more it doesnt fall back but it will rub against the crank arm


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