# ToC to MAY?



## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

16th to 23rd? Competing with the Giro?

WTH?


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

Now this would suck. 

Levi would either miss the Giro (well, he might not if he's the defending champ) or the ToC.

It'll be better if it were in April instead of May for sure.


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## jd3 (Oct 8, 2004)

ToC thinks that pros with serious TdF hopes will use this as a tune up race. I don't know. The Giro really seams seams to be gaining in popularity and importance. The date change could also cause problems here in the US with our hopes of Giro TV coverage.


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## ProRoad (Oct 13, 2008)

it's gonna be epic, big climbs coming, and mountaintop finish! tune up race for TDF. Also, look for it to extend to a longer tour in coming years.
Brian


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

ProRoad said:


> it's gonna be epic, big climbs coming, and mountaintop finish! tune up race for TDF. Also, look for it to extend to a longer tour in coming years.
> Brian


good luck getting the european teams to california in may.


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## uzziefly (Jul 15, 2006)

jd3 said:


> ToC thinks that pros with serious TdF hopes will use this as a tune up race. I don't know. The Giro really seams seams to be gaining in popularity and importance. The date change could also cause problems here in the US with our hopes of Giro TV coverage.


Nope. No way. More riders are favoring the Giro now as it is.

European teams are also heading to Italy now and this would seriously hurt the participation in the ToC IMHO.

Bad move Amgen. Shift it one month back or one month plus later and it's a go perhaps.

But, one month later and it'll clash with the Dauphiné so........

Hopefully things change.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

They have to move it out of California's rainy season somehow. I can't see it getting much bigger than this year's race without a change of sched. Given all the rain and the problems it brought to the TV coverage, the fans and sponsors and the dangerous conditions the riders had to endure, not too much more participation is likely in it's current time slot.

The fan base seems to be big. The state of Calif. had lots of nearby population centers to draw from up and down the state. If TOC was moved to a more temperate time of the year, the potential for epic alpine stages, easily equal to the Alps and Dolomites, are numerous around California. (It'd be cool to see them do a stage from Death Valley to Mt. Whitney....Lowest to highest...but the logistics would be tough)

The organizers of TOC seem to have a lot going for themselves. Going head to head with an established Euro-race might be their only option. It'll be fun to see how they proceed. It'd be fun to see the TOC get a lot bigger and draw even more top tier teams and riders, but it has to move into 'prime time' to do that.

Don Hanson


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

Mixed opinions on this move. It had to get out of Feburary, if they kept it there the Euros would lose interest over the next year or so. Look how many were getting sick from weather, travel, and the change of environment. Not to mention the crashes (Friere).

Because the early and mid season calender is so full, I always felt that September up against the Vuelta would've been a better move. Some argued for April, but April is too close to the Ardennes Classics, one could argue that those dates played a part in thedemise of the Tour De Georgia. A lot of teams start to wind down a bit after the TDF, having the TOC in September would be a way to send the riders into the off season. Hell, it might've been a way to attract the worlds back to the States


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

I foresee this as being a BAD thing. Euro teams are right in the thick of the racing schedules, and ToC won't be enough of a motivator to get teams across the pond. Sadly, I think it will lead to ToC becoming just another continental race.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

They know what they're doing - they likely already have commitments from some big riders (I'd be willing to bet LA has quietly agreed to participate). Something a bit lower key than the Giro would be better as a tune-up for the Tour - likely Saxo (who isn't sending their Tour GC contenders to the Giro), Cervelo, Garmin, Columbia will send their Tour rosters to a May ToC.


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## bwhite_4 (Aug 29, 2006)

The Giro will always be a bigger/better/more popular race to the world of cycling.

Some people here in the US might like the ToC better, but we are a minority.


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## thechriswebb (Nov 21, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> They know what they're doing - they likely already have commitments from some big riders (I'd be willing to bet LA has quietly agreed to participate). Something a bit lower key than the Giro would be better as a tune-up for the Tour - likely Saxo (who isn't sending their Tour GC contenders to the Giro), Cervelo, Garmin, Columbia will send their Tour rosters to a May ToC.


I thought it sounded like a pretty bad idea at first, but you do have a point....

Also, I heard a lot of comments from riders that said that this year's ToC was the most miserable race that they had ever competed in, so I could see a lot of the big named European riders losing interest in Feb.

There were a lot of people that were willing to stand in the cold and rain to see LA's return and LL (very popular in the US and especially California) ride to a third victory. In a few years when those guys aren't racing anymore, I bet that far fewer people would be willing to go out in February to watch.

There are a LOT of big named riders that do not compete in the Giro because they are focusing on the le tour, and like you stated before, the ToC would be a great race to have in that time period for the guys focusing on July to train. It is likely that the biggest casualty to the California peloton in May would be a bunch of Italian riders that the average American has never heard of. A lot of the big TDF GC riders that Americans would like to see would still be there. 

On the other hand, I really enjoyed having a stage race to watch in Feb.....


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## coop (Jun 8, 2008)

I worry more about the logistics involed in a mid-season jump accross the the pond for the pro tour teams. Even Garmin and Columbia are based out of spain this time of the year. They're gonna really have to find a way to make this worth it for it to work.


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

coop said:


> I worry more about the logistics involed in a mid-season jump accross the the pond for the pro tour teams. Even Garmin and Columbia are based out of spain this time of the year. They're gonna really have to find a way to make this worth it for it to work.


B
I
N
G
O

getting all the machines back to the states will be tough. and then ya gotta get the TT bikes, too. i think TDU doesnt allow TT bikes becasue of teh logistics. it may make for a real "race of truth."


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## parity (Feb 28, 2006)

Riders will ride races their sponsors want them to race. If this is the biggest Pro race in the US, do you not think they will want to get the exposure by having the bigger name riders there. For some of the European teams it may not matter, but its not going to matter whether its in Feb or May. 

Also I feel everyone over estimates the popularity of this years race. I would say the Lance effect was huge. How many of those people will come back without Lance? Standing at the prologue the most frequent question I was asked was when Lance was coming. 

Paris Nice is in March and the weather is some what similar, so I would say keep in in Feb. If they do move it to May they should take advantage of the memorial day weekend.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

I think this will make it a true Tour tune-up for the contenders. The Giro is too hard/long in many ways, and the Giro contenders all target the race specifically now. The shorter TofC with the superior training opportunities before and after (and access to the American/California market for sponsors) will be attractive. 

Moving to the Vuelta spot runs you into the same problems that are killing the Vuelta.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

Coolhand said:


> I think this will make it a true Tour tune-up for the contenders. The Giro is too hard/long in many ways, and the Giro contenders all target the race specifically now. The shorter TofC with the superior training opportunities before and after (and access to the American/California market for sponsors) will be attractive.
> 
> Moving to the Vuelta spot runs you into the same problems that are killing the Vuelta.


Noted in the cyclingnews article:



> Messick said the May date will allow access to more terrain in the high Sierra Mountains that are normally covered with snow.
> 
> The date change may have saved the race; Messick said if they did not receive the date change the event may not have happened in 2010.
> 
> "We would have had to make some difficult decisions. There was just no appetite to stay a February race."


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## millennium (Apr 3, 2002)

I think the success of the race from the promoters/sponsors perspective has less to do with whether Euro teams will cross the pond, and more to do with TV coverage and fan attendance.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

Gnarly 928 said:


> They have to move it out of California's rainy season somehow. I can't see it getting much bigger than this year's race without a change of sched. Given all the rain and the problems it brought to the TV coverage, the fans and sponsors and the dangerous conditions the riders had to endure, not too much more participation is likely in it's current time slot.


I don't know why they would move it. The appeal of the race was that it was good racing miles for a lot of the Euros at a time of the year when there isn't much else going on. They aren't going to come in May, and without stars, turnout is going to be small. 

In terms of weather, I don't see the problem. Over four years there have been 35 stages, and only seven have had rain. As wet as it seemed this year, only three of the nine stages had rain.

Also, a number of teams are already in California with training camps. They won't be here in May.

Moving the race will kill it, guaranteed.


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## Sherpa23 (Nov 5, 2001)

This is a much better move. Three things:

1) ToC is a little too hard for Feb. It doesn't really serve as a prep for anything other than spring classics and if moved later, would be more useful to the stage racers.

2) Now it becomes a viable prep for the Tour. Well timed, hard enough, and just the right length.

3) Moves to a better part of the season, weather-wise. That alone will make it more attractive and also do a better part for the state of California and the governator to showcase its wares. Finally, the queen stage might be represented as how it should be.

Will they lose some big names? Possibly. Will they get better representation within the teams? Probably. Will they get some of the major players when they are ready to challenge for the win instead of just ride themselves into shape? Definitely.

If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, but after talking to a bunch of the guys who have done it for the last few years, I think that they feel the same way I do. BTW, when was the ToG? IIRC, it was only 3 week earlier. Moving something like this to the 3rd week in May would make it more appealing, IMO. Again, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so.


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## jorgy (Oct 21, 2005)

Coolhand said:


> Noted in the cyclingnews article:
> 
> Messick said the May date will allow access to more terrain in the high Sierra Mountains that are normally covered with snow.


Are Sierra passes really open that early (reliably)?

When I lived in the northern Rockies, I seem to remember late June/early July road openings (e.g., Going-to-the-Sun; Beartooth Highway). I thought it was the same for the Sierras. I remember one year in the mid-1990s (when I had to do my master's fieldwork), Tioga Pass didn't open until July and I don't think the campground at Tuolumne opened at all.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> Moving the race will kill it, guaranteed.


Unlikely to kill it, leaving it where it was would keep it from growing and eventually kill it to grow and get bigger it had to move.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

millennium said:


> I think the success of the race from the promoters/sponsors perspective has less to do with whether Euro teams will cross the pond, and more to do with TV coverage and fan attendance.


You have that backwards. TV coverage and fan attendance directly corresponds to the number of big stars and top teams that attend the race. Most of the big players from the 2008 Tour de France were in California this year. There were multiple world champions, national champions, grand tour winners, grand tour stage winners, classics winners, etc. These are the stars of cycling. Any other time of the year, you'll be lucky to get a small fraction of these guys. With no star power, spectator turnout will be much lower, and no one is going to broadcast it live.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

32and3cross said:


> Unlikely to kill it, leaving it where it was would keep it from growing and eventually kill it to grow and get bigger it had to move.


How much bigger can it grow?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

Sherpa23 said:


> If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, but after talking to a bunch of the guys who have done it for the last few years, I think that they feel the same way I do. BTW, when was the ToG? IIRC, it was only 3 week earlier. Moving something like this to the 3rd week in May would make it more appealing, IMO. Again, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so.


ToG was late April, same week as the hilly classics. Most would point to its spot on the calendar as the reason they were unable to attract a large number of pro tour riders and big names. The ToC has always attracted many top level teams, and they even send over some of their best riders.

It may not kill it but I think this move will take it down a notch...


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

jorgy said:


> Are Sierra passes really open that early (reliably)?
> 
> When I lived in the northern Rockies, I seem to remember late June/early July road openings (e.g., Going-to-the-Sun; Beartooth Highway). I thought it was the same for the Sierras. I remember one year in the mid-1990s (when I had to do my master's fieldwork), Tioga Pass didn't open until July and I don't think the campground at Tuolumne opened at all.


Tioga pass is typically open by memorial day, but you're right that it's not totally reliable. Every 5 years or so it's open later, sometimes considerably later.

http://www.monolake.org/library/tiogapass.htm

Edit: Here's the info on all the major passes for the last few years.
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/clsdlst.htm


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

Heck, why not just put it in July? 

Yes, February is too early to present California in the best weather for the most spectacular climbs with riders in peak condition. But the field was impressive the last couple of years, and it won't ever be as good in May. Not even close. 

I fear that the race will indeed be diminished to continental status. I hope I am wrong, but I think this is a bad move.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

everyone seems to be forgetting the the Giro had been losing some of its international stature over the last few years and was more and more a race targeted by Italian riders who had no Tour ambitions (e.g., Simoni). Fewer tour riders have been using it in preparation for the Tour (which is regarded as old school preparation). In the 1997 Giro there were only 3 non-Italians in the final top ten. Last year was an exception since Contador rode it because Astana wasn't allowed to start the Tour and this year is the 100th anniversary with LA in it. Next year, it will go back to its former stature. 

The UCI has been trying to displace either the Giro or the Vuelta to open up new race opportunities. With ASO a partner in the ToC organization, there's going to be a lot of muscle behind making it a major event.


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## muscleendurance (Jan 11, 2009)

*Lol!*



jd3 said:


> The Giro really seams seams to be gaining in popularity and importance


I think you'll find the Giro has in fact been around for.....ever (and is one of the most prestigoius and important races in cycling), and its actually the TOC that is gaining in popularity and importance :thumbsup: 

dont be so american


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

mohair_chair said:


> I don't know why they would move it. The appeal of the race was that it was good racing miles for a lot of the Euros at a time of the year when there isn't much else going on. They aren't going to come in May, and without stars, turnout is going to be small.
> 
> In terms of weather, I don't see the problem. Over four years there have been 35 stages, and only seven have had rain. As wet as it seemed this year, only three of the nine stages had rain.


The first two years of ToC sunshine were not normal, that's why. They lucked out. 

February is traditionally wet and gray in northern California with those Pacific storms coming in, one after another. Why would the Euros continue to come all the way over, only to be battered by the rain and risk injuries. 

Why would big sponsors like the State of California Tourism Board continue to support the race, only to have its February rainstorms broadcast around the world? Is that how they want California to be viewed?


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

moonmoth said:


> The first two years of ToC sunshine were not normal, that's why. They lucked out.
> 
> February is traditionally wet and gray in northern California with those Pacific storms coming in, one after another. Why would the Euros continue to come all the way over, only to be battered by the rain and risk injuries.
> 
> Why would big sponsors like the State of California Tourism Board continue to support the race, only to have its February rainstorms broadcast around the world? Is that how they want California to be viewed?


While it is the rainy season, San Francisco has roughly the same number of rainy days in February as most of the eastern half of the country has each month. I'd rather have the best riders in the world show up for a 1/3 chance of rain instead of continental pros in sunshine. There's the continental circuit for that (which incidentally, almost no one cares about)...


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

SilasCL said:


> While it is the rainy season, San Francisco has roughly the same number of rainy days in February as most of the eastern half of the country has each month. I'd rather have the best riders in the world show up for a 1/3 chance of rain instead of continental pros in sunshine. There's the continental circuit for that (which incidentally, almost no one cares about)...


The best riders will no longer continue to show up if the regular February weather patterns persist. Why fly halfway around the world only to have to survive a few terrible days in the cold rain? You heard all the adjectives this year. Didn't Leipheimer himself say that one of those stages was among the most miserable he's ever ridden? From the ToC messaging that we've read, it sounds like some sponsors were going to pull the plug if the race could not be moved from February. No sponsors = no riders, especially the "best ones" that you mention. 

Yeah, you can probably play some averaging games with rainfall numbers across the USA but the point is that the west coast rain in February is predictable! The satellite maps always show a turnstile of storms coming in across the Pacific, one after another. This is a good thing! Your wine growers, water managers, flowers, skiers, and farmers enjoy it! What the ToC cannot continue to do is to promote the event in February as some sort of California paradise getaway when in fact it's closer to a northern European climate in April.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

moonmoth said:


> Yeah, you can probably play some averaging games with rainfall numbers across the USA but the point is that the west coast rain in February is predictable! The satellite maps always show a turnstile of storms coming in across the Pacific, one after another. This is a good thing! Your wine growers, water managers, flowers, skiers, and farmers enjoy it! What the ToC cannot continue to do is to promote the event in February as some sort of California paradise getaway when in fact it's closer to a northern European climate in April.


I live in Northern California and am well aware of the weather patterns. Most of those storms you see on the satellite don't reach the San Francisco Bay, but hit the true northern part of the state instead. The part that is closer in climate to Oregon.

The terrible weather you describe doesn't stop plenty of big Euro and continental teams from running their training camps in California. They've been doing it for years.

The weather for the TOC this year wasn't much different from Paris-Nice. Lots of complaints from riders there, too, but they aren't moving the race.

I predict the TOC will be a much lesser race next year. I doubt three-time winner Levi will even show up. There will be a star or two, probably enticed with appearance fees, but otherwise it will be no-name riders from continental teams and B-list riders from whatever Euro teams they can convince to come over.


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## mendo (Apr 18, 2007)

Part of the appeal of the ToC is that it's the first big race of the season, like opening day. One problem is that the only person who seems to target the race for the GC is Levi. Perhaps by pushing it back, you'll get a few more contenders showing up for the win instead of just using the race as training.

This is a gamble. No doubt about that. My first thoughts were along the lines of "what the hell are they thinking?," but after reading this thread and considering it some more, I can see some upside. 

If it doesn't work, I guess they can go back to their original slot on the calender.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

moonmoth said:


> The best riders will no longer continue to show up if the regular February weather patterns persist. Why fly halfway around the world only to have to survive a few terrible days in the cold rain? You heard all the adjectives this year. Didn't Leipheimer himself say that one of those stages was among the most miserable he's ever ridden? From the ToC messaging that we've read, it sounds like some sponsors were going to pull the plug if the race could not be moved from February. No sponsors = no riders, especially the "best ones" that you mention.
> 
> Yeah, you can probably play some averaging games with rainfall numbers across the USA but the point is that the west coast rain in February is predictable! The satellite maps always show a turnstile of storms coming in across the Pacific, one after another. This is a good thing! Your wine growers, water managers, flowers, skiers, and farmers enjoy it! What the ToC cannot continue to do is to promote the event in February as some sort of California paradise getaway when in fact it's closer to a northern European climate in April.


I've only lived in SF for 4 winters now, but in my experience the weather is relatively unpredictable. One year had record rain, literally every day in March had some rainfall. Every year since has been much milder, and while it is often rainy during the winter months it is quite variable.

Here's a bunch of data, stretching back 50+ years. 
http://www.met.utah.edu/jhorel/html/wx/climate/daysrain.html
SF averages 10 days of rain in February. This is not like having a race in the monsoon season in India...

The race has either grown in popularity or stayed roughly the same over the years. Can the same be said for any American race held during the prime months of cycling in Europe? I can't think of an example that lasted 4 years like the ToC.


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## SilasCL (Jun 14, 2004)

mendo said:


> Part of the appeal of the ToC is that it's the first big race of the season, like opening day. One problem is that the only person who seems to target the race for the GC is Levi. Perhaps by pushing it back, you'll get a few more contenders showing up for the win instead of just using the race as training.
> 
> This is a gamble. No doubt about that. My first thoughts were along the lines of "what the hell are they thinking?," but after reading this thread and considering it some more, I can see some upside.
> 
> If it doesn't work, I guess they can go back to their original slot on the calender.


The overall has been relatively boring, but they had Boonen, Freire, and Cavendish were all there for the sprints this year. There is a large base of recreational riders in California who pay attention during the TDF and recognize big names like this and consequently watch the ToC. The same thing happened during the late season SFGP, where riders like Hincapie and Freddie Rodriguez showed up.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

mohair_chair said:


> I live in Northern California and am well aware of the weather patterns. Most of those storms you see on the satellite don't reach the San Francisco Bay, but hit the true northern part of the state instead. The part that is closer in climate to Oregon.
> 
> The terrible weather you describe doesn't stop plenty of big Euro and continental teams from running their training camps in California. They've been doing it for years.
> 
> The weather for the TOC this year wasn't much different from Paris-Nice. Lots of complaints from riders there, too, but they aren't moving the race.


Don't those training camps run mainly in the Solvang and San Diego areas? CSC used to hold a camp in Solvang but that was mainly to make an annual appearance for their USA-based sponsor. Not sure they would continue to do this if there was no ToC in February. I know that some riders come over to use the wind tunnel in San Diego. 

I think Paris-Nice is a good example of my point. PR is known to have miserable weather for the first couple of stages, including snow and freezing rain. This is a given among the riders and sponsors, and they know what they are getting into. From an out-of-state view, here's how the ToC organizers advertise their event: palm trees, riders going over a scenic, sunny Big Sur bridge, sunglasses, beaches, blue skies, and the governor wine-sipping outdoors with a white tablecloth. Could a Februrary ToC survive on a more realistic perspective? What about actually partnering with the bad weather, and promoting it as such? "Hell of the Bear State"? "Race from the Clouds"?


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

moonmoth said:


> Not sure they would continue to do this if there was no ToC in February.


They were holding training camps here long before the TOC. Mostly in Solvang and north county san diego. USPS was in Avila Beach one year. I think part of the reason the TOC is in February is to take advantage of the teams already being here. But the TOC could die and teams would still come here for training camps.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

mohair_chair said:


> How much bigger can it grow?


Their plan is alot bigger.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

Its definately a gamble. Maybe they are trying to supplant the Giro. If it fails next year because of the schedule, they will probably try to move it back a bit. But if it somehow works, and eventually grows to the point of attracting the bigger name riders over the Giro, with the Giro fading a bit as pointed out by others, then there is endless potential.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

I'm sure the time trial would be a blast today in santa barbara. Or racing in 90+ degrees in pasadena. 



moonmoth said:


> Don't those training camps run mainly in the Solvang and San Diego areas? CSC used to hold a camp in Solvang but that was mainly to make an annual appearance for their USA-based sponsor. Not sure they would continue to do this if there was no ToC in February. I know that some riders come over to use the wind tunnel in San Diego.
> 
> I think Paris-Nice is a good example of my point. PR is known to have miserable weather for the first couple of stages, including snow and freezing rain. This is a given among the riders and sponsors, and they know what they are getting into. From an out-of-state view, here's how the ToC organizers advertise their event: palm trees, riders going over a scenic, sunny Big Sur bridge, sunglasses, beaches, blue skies, and the governor wine-sipping outdoors with a white tablecloth. Could a Februrary ToC survive on a more realistic perspective? What about actually partnering with the bad weather, and promoting it as such? "Hell of the Bear State"? "Race from the Clouds"?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

den bakker said:


> I'm sure the time trial would be a blast today in santa barbara. Or racing in 90+ degrees in pasadena.


at least the team hotels in the ToC have air conditioning - a big step up from some of the places the Giro passes through - and Southern Italy is at least as warm as So Cal in May.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

stevesbike said:


> at least the team hotels in the ToC have air conditioning - a big step up from some of the places the Giro passes through - and Southern Italy is at least as warm as So Cal in May.


"Southern California, not quite as bad as Sicily" 
Not a bad slogan at all....


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

Isn't the Giro only "fading" because it is too tough to compete in if a rider has primary dreams of winning the Tour? The race organization has made the climbs brutal over the past decade or so. I wouldn't call that fading, just too close in proximity to the Tour. I think the Giro should be moved a bit earlier, maybe just a week, to get more riders interested in attempting the Big Double. Too bad today's riders have less ambition than the greats of old.

A Tour of California can never supplant the Giro in the eyes of serious riders, especially Italians. The travel demands alone will be too much of a bother in May. How about moving the ToC to August or October? Better than May, I think.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Italophile said:


> Isn't the Giro only "fading" because it is too tough to compete in if a rider has primary dreams of winning the Tour? The race organization has made the climbs brutal over the past decade or so. I wouldn't call that fading, just too close in proximity to the Tour. I think the Giro should be moved a bit earlier, maybe just a week, to get more riders interested in attempting the Big Double. Too bad today's riders have less ambition than the greats of old.
> 
> A Tour of California can never supplant the Giro in the eyes of serious riders, especially Italians. The travel demands alone will be too much of a bother in May. How about moving the ToC to August or October? Better than May, I think.


well october wont work in the sierras either. 
having it in september before or after Missouri might work, rather compete with the vuelta than the giro. But then again, many of the top riders are at home resting at that time of year and the autumn is probably not nearly as attractive as late winter.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

One of the Net bike news sites has an article/interveiw on the move. Says it is done--dates to compete with the Giro, yes. The reasoning behind that selection is that they figure riders who are targeting the TDF may find the TOC a better option than the Giro as a 'training' event.

One consideration is that the Southwest and SoCal, even NoCal are pretty nice that time of year so that if a big $ team wanted an alternative to the traditional places for training camps, they could come over to the US for the TOC and add some less expensive, less hectic training at some other southern US location before or after the TOC.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gnarly 928 said:


> One of the Net bike news sites has an article/interveiw on the move. Says it is done--dates to compete with the Giro, yes. The reasoning behind that selection is that they figure riders who are targeting the TDF may find the TOC a better option than the Giro as a 'training' event.
> 
> One consideration is that the Southwest and SoCal, even NoCal are pretty nice that time of year so that if a big $ team wanted an alternative to the traditional places for training camps, they could come over to the US for the TOC and add some less expensive, less hectic training at some other southern US location before or after the TOC.


but why bother coming to california that time of year? It's more expensive than most of southern europe, two full days are wasted in transit and one has to deal with 9 hours of jet lag both ways.


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## Gnarly 928 (Nov 19, 2005)

den bakker said:


> but why bother coming to california that time of year? It's more expensive than most of southern europe, two full days are wasted in transit and one has to deal with 9 hours of jet lag both ways.


 Money? Don't Pro teams get paid to race? I don't know a thing about the economics of professional cycling. But, with potentially important race like TOC don't these teams get paid to show up? Otherwise, how does a pro team do it, pay all the workers who ride, etc? TOC has some substantial cashflow going for it and some of that could pay for the plane tickets and a week or two at a Super 8 or a couple of condos in Buelton or Tucson for the team..

Exposure? If the teams don't want to waste their Big Riders entering them into the Giro...the easier, more laid back and still pretty widely watched TOC is an alternative that beats a couple of weeks in the Canary Islands, without any team exposure..

Don Hanson


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Otherwise, how does a pro team do it, pay all the workers who ride, etc?


Team sponsors provide the operating cash (salaries, travel, etc.) in return for advertising.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

Gnarly 928 said:


> Money? Don't Pro teams get paid to race? I don't know a thing about the economics of professional cycling. But, with potentially important race like TOC don't these teams get paid to show up? Otherwise, how does a pro team do it, pay all the workers who ride, etc? TOC has some substantial cashflow going for it and some of that could pay for the plane tickets and a week or two at a Super 8 or a couple of condos in Buelton or Tucson for the team..
> 
> Exposure? If the teams don't want to waste their Big Riders entering them into the Giro...the easier, more laid back and still pretty widely watched TOC is an alternative that beats a couple of weeks in the Canary Islands, without any team exposure..
> 
> Don Hanson


Tucson??? it will hit more than 100F this week there. Who in their right mind would go there in may for a training camp. 
I dont get it, you want TOC to be a world event but it should still be easy and laid back? And yet go into the Sierres for the mountain stages? 
the TOC was not that "widely watched" outside the states. Despite the fact it was the only race at the time with any names worth mentioning. Which again would mean that for a may location the exposure would drop.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

moonmoth said:


> Team sponsors provide the operating cash (salaries, travel, etc.) in return for advertising.


some money is exchanged for the promise of specific riders to show up but I doubt it can compete with the sponsorship money from saxobank+specialized....


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

Let's put it this way, if given the choice of which race you'd rather see on TV, would you want to watch the Giro or the ToC?

No chance is the ToC even close to the thrill or power of the Giro.


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## mohair_chair (Oct 3, 2002)

I think this is wishful thinking, and you are sure to be disappointed when the race comes. There aren't a lot of climbs in California that compare to the Alps. I've been in the Alps, and I can think of only two climbs I've that might compare: Ebbets Pass in the Sierras, and Gibraltar Road in Santa Barbara. I just don't see teams going through the expense of coming over here when they can stay home and get in much better TDF training. Mark my words: The 2010 TOC is going to be a shadow of its former self, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2010 was the last year they did it.


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## moonmoth (Nov 8, 2008)

mohair_chair said:


> Mark my words: The 2010 TOC is going to be a shadow of its former self, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2010 was the last year they did it.


Yeah, for some reasons, our tours (e.g. Dupont, Coors, Georgia) don't seem to have much staying power. Missouri clearly has the momentum right now but how long will that last?

And in keep in mind that Lance Armstrong has opened a conversation with the Colorado governor to revive some type of tour in Colorado.


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## Italophile (Jun 11, 2004)

mohair_chair said:


> I think this is wishful thinking, and you are sure to be disappointed when the race comes. There aren't a lot of climbs in California that compare to the Alps. I've been in the Alps, and I can think of only two climbs I've that might compare: Ebbets Pass in the Sierras, and Gibraltar Road in Santa Barbara. I just don't see teams going through the expense of coming over here when they can stay home and get in much better TDF training. Mark my words: The 2010 TOC is going to be a shadow of its former self, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2010 was the last year they did it.


Couldn't agree more on all of the last few posts. If ToC is trying to go for Wow Factor, May is not gonna get it done. The Giro is the Wow race, the expense is not justified in TdF preparation, and the field will be almost strictly domestic.

It is a shame, because California can support a big event. I'm afraid the ToC has "improved" itself into oblivion with this May scheme.


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## jsedlak (Jun 17, 2008)

robdamanii said:


> Let's put it this way, if given the choice of which race you'd rather see on TV, would you want to watch the Giro or the ToC?
> 
> No chance is the ToC even close to the thrill or power of the Giro.


But what if the ToC as a May event did succeed in getting the main TdF contenders to compete. And what if this bunch included top riders from America and American teams?

I think the general population would easily pick the ToC over the Giro for many reasons all related to it being American and not in some "far off crazy land". And it could all start with a small ad on NBC's big channels.


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## moabbiker (Sep 11, 2002)

It will be a mistake. Toc is about as exciting to watch as the Tour of Australia. The only reason both are paid attention to is that they are in the early/off-season. Take that single element away and nobody will care anymore.


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## robdamanii (Feb 13, 2006)

jsedlak said:


> But what if the ToC as a May event did succeed in getting the main TdF contenders to compete. And what if this bunch included top riders from America and American teams?
> 
> I think the general population would easily pick the ToC over the Giro for many reasons all related to it being American and not in some "far off crazy land". And it could all start with a small ad on NBC's big channels.


The "general population" doesn't watch cycling anyway, so what would the fans care about?

ToC won't attract TdF warmups, it's not hard enough. It was well attended in Feb because it was early in the season, a good jumpstart to early season training. I highly doubt it will survive in May.

Really, will Sastre, Menchov, Levi, Contador, Basso et al want to give up a grand tour for this? Not to mention the Giro is hard, but it is also positioned so that it can be ridden and you can recover from it in time for the Tour. 

I can pretty much assure that I won't be watching ToC next year. I'll be watching the Giro, and I suspect many will do the same.


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

moonmoth said:


> The first two years of ToC sunshine were not normal, that's why. They lucked out.
> 
> February is traditionally wet and gray in northern California with those Pacific storms coming in, one after another.


yep, you keep thinking that. February on the coast is a very nice time of the year. Sure we get our storms, but it's most definitely not one after another, and it's most definitely not cold and gray everyday. I can and do ride 9 days out of 10 during the winter without getting rained on. 

We average 9 days that have some rain in February. 7 days of fog which usually burns off by 10 or 11. I love the winter months for riding.

I think they made a big mistake by moving it.


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## grrrah (Jul 22, 2005)

moonmoth said:


> The first two years of ToC sunshine were not normal, that's why. They lucked out.
> 
> February is traditionally wet and gray in northern California with those Pacific storms coming in, one after another.


From the first year of the ToC

(I think it did rain on the one coastal stage)
prologue








Stage 3 or 4


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## huez (Mar 15, 2002)

mohair_chair said:


> I think this is wishful thinking, and you are sure to be disappointed when the race comes. There aren't a lot of climbs in California that compare to the Alps. I've been in the Alps, and I can think of only two climbs I've that might compare: Ebbets Pass in the Sierras, and Gibraltar Road in Santa Barbara. I just don't see teams going through the expense of coming over here when they can stay home and get in much better TDF training. Mark my words: The 2010 TOC is going to be a shadow of its former self, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2010 was the last year they did it.



Ebbets isn't that long is it? I've been up both sides a couple times and it's a good one. How about the climb from Angels Camp up hwy 4 to Mosquito Lake? Probably 30 miles and maybe 6-7,000 feet of gain. Steady climb the whole way.

But man, the riding up near ebbets and pacific summit is some of the best road riding I've seen.


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