# anyone ever use SportLegs?



## BenWA

Has anyone here used the supplement SportLegs? Is there any noticable decrease in lactic acid burn? From what I recall, its just vitamin D, calcium, and magnesium. Anyone have any reports? There are a ton of testimonials on their website but who knows how legit they are, so I figured I'd check here to see if anyone has used it.


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## ruger9

I'm ashamed to admit I did try it- altho in my defense, the guy at the bike shop was raving about these capsules, and gave them to me for FREE, so at least I didn't pay for them.

Snake oil.


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## BenWA

i figured as much. 

i was given a sample pack at a recent XC mtb race and the packaging label was very shady looking (no detail of ingredients or anything)...so i was even afraid to take them, as they could have contained pretty much anything.


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## SportLegs

"the packaging label was very shady looking (no detail of ingredients or anything)...so i was even afraid to take them, as they could have contained pretty much anything"?!

We're mystified, and extremely concerned.

We've proudly distributed free SportLegs samples at NORBA National MTB races for the last three years because so many racers appreciate the chance to put it to the test, and immediately enjoy the results. Our samples clearly detail precisely what our ingredients are, as required by FDA regulations.

If the sample you received didn't, that's a problem. A BIG problem.

Reading directly from the FDA-required "Supplement Facts" panel on one of our single-dose samples, a four-capsule sample dose of SportLegs delivers 174 mg of dietary calcium from European natural-source calcium lactate monohydrate, 87 mg of dietary magnesium from European natural-source magnesium lactate dihydrate, plus 87 IU of American natural-source Vitamin D3. Plus the Pfizer vegetarian capsule, made of Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose (a wood derivative, also used in eye drops), and water.

Since you're intelligent enough to use a computer, it's unlikely you simply neglected to turn a real SportLegs sample over to read the other side. So please send us whatever it was you received, and we'll happily compensate you with three 120-capsule bottles of real SportLegs, a $69.95 value. If someone else is out there jeopardizing your health, not to mention risking certain FDA retribution, it's in both our best interests to nip this in the bud. Please mail your sample to us at :

Sport Specifics, Inc.
174-B Solon Road
Chagrin Falls, OH 44022
1-866-LEG-BURN (534-2876) toll-free

We sincerely appreciate your bringing this apparent counterfeit to our attention.

Carl Holmes


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## CFBlue

Well, it appears the gauntlet has been thrown down. Looking forward to hear how this one turns out.


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## BenWA

*too late, afraid to say*

The sample pack that I had is on its way to a landfill somewhere. I can't say with 100% certainty what was or was not on the label now that I no longer have it in front of me. But what I can say is that I have taken a lot of vitamins and supplements in my day and I am careful to read labels on supplements very thoroughly, as I like to know exactly what is going into my body. I would most likely have given the caps a try had I known exactly what they contained. I should also add that I showed the sample pack to 2 other friends that day and they both agreed that it looked dodgy. Have you had problems with counterfeiting before? Is it possible that there was a label misprint/flaw? I can tell you exactly where and when I got the sample, if that would help.

FWIW, I was just riding the bike park at Whistler with a buddy whom I hadn't seen in a long time (he's a pro downhiller/freerider) and he raved about sportlegs when i told him about my suspicious packet, to the point that he busted out a bottle it when we got back to his condo and gave me a bunch (I have yet to try it).


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## SportLegs

Ben, thanks for the info. Wish we could have seen what you got. We'd be extremely reluctant to try some mystery supplement too, especially if it looked "dodgy." We would have tossed it, too.

Our Quality Control processes are exceptionally stringent; they have to be, particularly when your customers include world-class athletes who are constantly tested for doping violations. If one of our samples had been misprinted, you would have noticed a lot of blank area where the FDA-required "Supplement Facts" should have been. The remainder of our packaging would have looked credible, though. It certainly costs us a bundle. What you encountered must have been some sort of counterfeit. Did you get it from someone in Canada?

Even though you can't produce your sample, we'll honor the spirit of our promise to you with a free 120-capsule bottle of SportLegs; just tell us your shipping address in an e-mail to [email protected].

When you do try real SportLegs yourself, you're likely to experience the same results Bicycling magazine just reported in their September 2005 issue. Their staffers unanimously reported positive results: "It's like a good day in a bottle. 'My legs kept going and feeling fresh, even up the final climb,' said one racer after a six-hour singlespeed mountain bike enduro. 'It took longer to reach the burn point,' said one. 'My legs burned on steep climbs, but I was able to ride faster,' said another." It's a shame SportLegs didn't work for forum regular Ruger, but it sure does the job for Marla Streb and Aussie phenom Trent Lowe, who just left the Subaru/Gary Fisher MTB team to sign with the Discovery Channel road team. It'll probably work for you, too.

Carl Holmes


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## ruger9

Didn't mean to insult the product- just to convey that FOR ME, it did nothing. But nothing works for everybody. Alot of people think products like Endurox R4 is "snake oil", but I get great results from it.

BTW- my package came directly from my LBS, and had the ingredients list, etc. Didn't look dodgy at all. Hope you don't have a counterfeit problem out there...


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## SportLegs

We appreciate your taking the time to explain. And we really are sorry our stuff didn't work for you. Because we hear so many really cool things from the people it does work for.

For example, at the MTB Nationals in Mammoth last weekend, a handsome 11-year-old boy wearing a KHS jersey pulled on my sleeve, looked up solemnly and said, "Mister, thank you for making SportLegs."

After I caught my breath, I asked him why he said that. He paused, and replied, "When my Dad forgets to give them to me, bicycling hurts. And I go slow."

See what I mean?

My new friend introduced himself as Blake VanVleet, 11, from Oceanside, California. Blake came by later to show me his new bronze medal for third in the nation in junior Cross Country. Then his 13-year-old sister Brittney, also a SportLegs user, shyly showed me her first-place gold for junior Cross Country.

Helping riders young and old pull off the best performances of their lives, well, it helps make it all worthwhile.

In our experience, Endurox and Accelerade are good stuff. Ditto Cytomax, Amino Vital and Optima. It's largely a matter of taste. Many of our customers follow up their initial dose of SportLegs with one of these beverages and/or the gel/goo of their choice. It's a good idea; since SportLegs noticeably raises Lactate Threshold, allowing you to comfortably go longer and harder, it's natural you need to hydrate and replace electrolytes and carbs more often.

Whatever you use, enjoy your ride.

Carl


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## Keiko5

*Tried it for the first time yesterday*

Being a former racer trying to get back into it after 20 years, I was looking for something to help with my tendency to cramp up in my calves. I know that I cramp bacause of lack of hi-intensity training. I can go for hours at a moderately high pace without any problem, but when I jump in with the young guns, I get thrashed after 15-20 miles. I tried Sportlegs for the first time yesterday, and although I will need to try it under different circumstances to really get an idea of its effect, here is what I can report. Yesterday, I took 3 capsules at 11:20 in preparation for my noon ride. I rode the 5 miles to meet the group. I normally use this to warm up and try and get a slight burn going. I rode my same route, same pace, gearing and time. It was really weird not to feel any signs of exertion in my legs during the warm up; no burn or tightness although I was working up a sweat. I was getting a little anxious because I was sweating, but feeling like I wasn't doing the work necessary to justify the sweat. I felt really good during the fast group ride, even challenging for the sprint midway through the ride (lost by a bike length). in anticipation for the sprint at the end of the ride, I jumped hard on the hill about 500m before the end and gapped off the group. My legs were feeling great on the short decent and into the final flat, but at about 150m I completely bonked and had to give it up. I was seeing spots and was really having a hard time just holding a line. I'm thinking what happened is that I usually guage my level of exertion by how much my legs are burning, and I usually can get to and hold in a zone right below detonation based on how badly my legs are hurting. Without the telltale burn in my legs, I think I pedaled right through that zone and simply blew-up before the finish. 

So after one trial, I think Sportlegs works as described, and I will continue using it, but I will need to be more in tune to my exertion level and not rely on the burn in my legs as an indicator. Wtih Sportlegs, the burn just isn't there. Finally, my legs feel great today (I took the remaining 2 capsules from the 5-capsule pak after the ride). And maybe most important to me, I didn't cramp. It will be interesting to see how it works for me on longer, hi-intensity rides.


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## SportLegs

Wow, what a great post! Thanks for taking the time to share your story here. Riding with so much less "burn" and soreness does feel kind of weird at first, doesn't it?

We've heard similar reports from many competitors, including new Discovery Channel road team rider Trent Lowe. Since the typical "burn" isn't there, it's harder to know when to rein yourself in. It's tempting to lose yourself in the sheer exhilaration of riding your best. So be smart: If you're using SportLegs, we recommend you increase your hydration and/or electrolyte intake to match your newly increased performance levels. Last summer, 2005 Subaru/Gary Fisher MTB cross-country rider Willow Koerber used SportLegs to crush teammate Jimena Florit at Mt. Snow, gaining an additional minute over the Argentina Olympian with each of three laps. But Willow had been training with SportLegs for several months, so she knew what to expect.


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## Kerry Irons

*Spam*



SportLegs said:


> Last summer, 2005 Subaru/Gary Fisher MTB cross-country rider Willow Koerber used SportLegs to crush teammate Jimena Florit at Mt. Snow, gaining an additional minute over the Argentina Olympian with each of three laps. But Willow had been training with SportLegs for several months, so she knew what to expect.


One of the first things one should learn about science is that association is not the same as causation. The fact that heat makes things expand and cold makes them contract does not explain why the days are longer in the summer than in the winter. It would be interesting to see your scientific (double blind, controlled studies) evidence that in fact supports this claim.


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## SportLegs

Willow publicly admitted this in a post-race interview with Assistant Editor Daisy Bauer published in Mountain Biking Magazine, September 2004, pp. 42-46, 48, 50-52.

Kerry, if you're really interested in scientific double-blind controlled studies, here you go:

In Fall 2003, Ohio's Kent State University conducted formal randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials under the supervision of Exercise Science Professor Ellen Glickman, Ph.D., a Fellow of the respected American College of Sports Medicine [“ACSM”]. Test subjects who took SportLegs instead of a placebo one hour before testing demonstrated an average 15.6% increase in Lactate Threshold [“LT”]. This LT increase allowed subjects to keep exercising against steadily increasing resistance 11.2% longer. Their VO2max aerobic capacity also increased by 12.8%.

In Fall 2004, Washington, D.C. exercise physiologist and road cycling coach Susan Hefler conducted double-blind tests of SportLegs vs. placebo on 36 of her clients, riding stationary ten-mile time trials on CompuTrainers. 78% were an average 2% faster using SportLegs. 81% could generate an average 8% more power in a 15 second “jump”. And 86% of Coach Hefler’s riders reported that performing 2% faster felt an average 23% easier.

While these studies are both unpublished, Bicycling magazine was sufficiently impressed by the buzz among top Pro racers to ask four of their staffers to test SportLegs during June, 2005. In their September 2005 issue, p. 93, author (and SportLegs convert) Selene Yeager writes, "SportLegs contains lactate forms of calcium and magnesium [plus vitamin D]. Taken an hour before exercise, it pre-loads your bloodstream with lactate and tricks your muscles into thinking they don't need to make more- a sneaky way to raise your lactate threshold and boost performance, according to unpublished research at Ohio's Kent State University. THE RESULTS: 'It's like a good day in a bottle,' chorus the 'rats.' 'My legs kept going and feeling fresh, even up the final climb,' said one racer after a six-hour singlespeed mountain bike enduro. 'It's the kind of feeling you have when you're in a sweet groove,' said another who used it over eight hard rides, including two crits. The rec riders didn't notice exceptional performance gains, but did report feeling fresher. [Echoes Coach Hefler's results above.] 'It took longer to reach the burn point,' said one. 'My legs [still] burned on steep climbs, but I was able to ride faster,' said another."

Hope this helps.

Carl


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## Kerry Irons

*Placebo problem*

Most supplements are better than placebos, since the placebo contains nothing. The real question is how they compare to getting the same nutritional values from food. Supplements generally are not better than food (or in this case, minerals). This would be the study that would be of value - comparing to food/minerals.


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## CFBlue

"It would be interesting to see your scientific evidence (double blind, controlled studies) that supports this claim."

By your standards, were the two studies he quoted legit?


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## Kerry Irons

*Useful studies*



The Master Cylinder said:


> By your standards, were the two studies he quoted legit?


They are legitimate, but not very useful. If I do a study comparing salty sugar water (energy drink) with similar tasting drink that contains no calories and no electrolytes, I know that the energy drink will result in significant performance improvements. That doesn't mean that this energy drink is a huge advantage, because I can get the same effects by just eating some salty and easily digested food. Same applies here - let's compare this product with a simple Mg + Ca mineral mix and see if there's any improvement.


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## CFBlue

Kerry Irons said:


> They are legitimate, but not very useful. If I do a study comparing salty sugar water (energy drink) with similar tasting drink that contains no calories and no electrolytes, I know that the energy drink will result in significant performance improvements. That doesn't mean that this energy drink is a huge advantage, because I can get the same effects by just eating some salty and easily digested food. Same applies here - let's compare this product with a simple Mg + Ca mineral mix and see if there's any improvement.


Kerry,

It sounds to me that you agree that the product does as advertised for some people. However, I could probably duplicate the product (ingredients) on my own, from the grocery/health food store, if I was so inclined. Am I on track?


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## Keiko5

Kerry Irons said:


> They are legitimate, but not very useful. If I do a study comparing salty sugar water (energy drink) with similar tasting drink that contains no calories and no electrolytes, I know that the energy drink will result in significant performance improvements. That doesn't mean that this energy drink is a huge advantage, because I can get the same effects by just eating some salty and easily digested food. Same applies here - let's compare this product with a simple Mg + Ca mineral mix and see if there's any improvement.


I'm not sure what your point is. Clearly, if you had the right ingredients at hand, you might be able to mix them in the proper quantities to achieve similar results as Sportlegs. No argument. But if your point is that Sportlegs shouldn't be taking credit for their product's benefits, and instead should be telling us how to mix our own capsules from generic ingredients so we don't have to pay the premium for their product, that's just silly. Whether its KFC, or Bush's Baked Beans, Johnny Walker scotch or Camel cigarettes, the manufacturers have a right to market their "secret recipe" even if you could buy the raw ingredients and "roll your own" for less money. 

Kevin


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## Kerry Irons

*Supplement philosophy*



Keiko5 said:


> I'm not sure what your point is.


Here's my point(s): someone burning a bunch of extra calories should have no problem getting a balanced diet and supplements are just overpriced food. That's without even going into the issues of quality control and unsubstantiated claims. The IOC tested 600 supplements and showed that 15% of them (90!) would cause positive dope tests for banned substances. 

The Feb 24, 2003 issue of VeloNews has some interesting comments from Christiane Ayotte, head of Canada's leading anti doping lab. (Remember that the US supplements industry effectively lobbied congress several years ago and prevented the US FDA from regulating the industry except in cases of human safety. Supplements imported from many countries are even less regulated.) Supplements' "claimed actions, efficiency, or potency have not been thoroughly investigated by controlled clinical studies and remain for the most part anecdotal." "athletes are targeted by the sport nutritional industry by very aggressive and efficient marketing, but for the vast majority of the products . . , the scientific proofs supporting their claims are not there. But the athletes believe: It is more on the side of faith than facts. One only listens to what he wants and becomes deaf, blind to all logical arguments." 

A recent German study analyzed 600 samples of nutritional supplements and found anabolic steroids in 20% at levels that could result in a positive dope test. None of these supplements were labeled as containing steroids. In the US, supplements are not tested or regulated, and need not be labeled as containing steroids. Add to this the fact that no good (controlled, double blind) studies have shown benefits of supplementation for athletes over a balanced diet. When an active person consumes a balanced diet, it is extremely easy to get the required nutritional components. This is because the high level of activity requires a large food intake, and so the nutrients come along automatically.


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## Keiko5

Kerry Irons said:


> Here's my point(s): someone burning a bunch of extra calories should have no problem getting a balanced diet and supplements are just overpriced food. That's without even going into the issues of quality control and unsubstantiated claims. The IOC tested 600 supplements and showed that 15% of them (90!) would cause positive dope tests for banned substances.
> 
> The Feb 24, 2003 issue of VeloNews has some interesting comments from Christiane Ayotte, head of Canada's leading anti doping lab. (Remember that the US supplements industry effectively lobbied congress several years ago and prevented the US FDA from regulating the industry except in cases of human safety. Supplements imported from many countries are even less regulated.) Supplements' "claimed actions, efficiency, or potency have not been thoroughly investigated by controlled clinical studies and remain for the most part anecdotal." "athletes are targeted by the sport nutritional industry by very aggressive and efficient marketing, but for the vast majority of the products . . , the scientific proofs supporting their claims are not there. But the athletes believe: It is more on the side of faith than facts. One only listens to what he wants and becomes deaf, blind to all logical arguments."
> 
> A recent German study analyzed 600 samples of nutritional supplements and found anabolic steroids in 20% at levels that could result in a positive dope test. None of these supplements were labeled as containing steroids. In the US, supplements are not tested or regulated, and need not be labeled as containing steroids. Add to this the fact that no good (controlled, double blind) studies have shown benefits of supplementation for athletes over a balanced diet. When an active person consumes a balanced diet, it is extremely easy to get the required nutritional components. This is because the high level of activity requires a large food intake, and so the nutrients come along automatically.


You make some very good points. And I agree that if I could get everything I need from what I eat, I would. I think that I have a healthy diet and my blood sucrose and cholestrol tests will verify that I'm probably quite healthy. However, I have always had issues with cramping especially in my calves, dating back to my racing days 20+ years ago. At my age 50+ I am not opposed to trying supplements to remedy specific issues. I carry Cytomax in my water bottle to help during my rides, I take an energy gel an hour or so into a hard ride. When I read about Sportlegs I thought I'd give it a try to see if it could help forestall or eliminate my cramping.  I have only used it twice, once as described above and again this past Sunday when my wife and I took the tandem on a rainy, cold metric century. Both time it seemed to provide the effect described in the Sportlegs ads. It may be that it is providing the necessary minerals in quantities that I am not able to absorb from the foods I eat. Or maybe its all in my head. Sportlegs as a supplement is beneficial to me, and I will continue to use it until it either has a negative effect on me, or it no longer provides a tangible benefit. If it helps me get back into racing, and can keep me competitive for a few more years, that is more than I can ask for.

Kevin


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## ruger9

The whole Sport Legs "function" sounds alot to me like a training priciple Chris Carmichael (and I'm sure many others) use: to INCREASE the amount of lactic acid in the muscles, thereby getting your muscles accustomed to clearing lactic acid for that workout. CTS accomplishes this by doing a short bout of speedwork at the beginning of the workout (after a warm-up, of course.) That way, your muscles' mechanism for clearing lactic acid will already be pumping by the time your "real" workout comes along, making the entire "system" more efficient.


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## peloton

'it pre-loads your bloodstream with lactate and tricks your muscles into thinking they don't need to make more- a sneaky way to raise your lactate threshold and boost performance' Quote from Sportlegs

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I'm a college exercise physiology instructor for what it's worth, and this quote just doesn't adhere to the basics of physiology.

Lactate is produced by insufficient O2 at within the muscle cell during work. Since there is not enough oxygen to keep up with the demands being placed on the muscle pyruvate becomes lactate to remove some hydrogen ions (free radicals) from the muscle, and transport it back to the liver where it can be metabolized as energy. If there had been enough oxygen there the pyruvate would have gone through the Krebs cycle again to produce more ATP for energy to keep up with the workload. Lactate is only formed because there wasn't enough O2 to run pyruvate through the Krebs cycle for ATP (energy) production.

Lactate isn't formed or not formed due to blood lactate levels. Lactate is formed due to insuffient oxygen levels during work. If there is insuffient oxygen levels in your muscles to deal with the workload, you are going to produce lactate irregardless of what sort of blood lactate levels you have going on. Of course, the higher your blood levels of lactate are- the less likely you are going to be able to maintain the workload anyway as you reach Onset of Blood Lactate Accumluation (OBLA- basically still just not enough oxygen available to continue producing energy at that level of work intensity). 

According to this quote, lactate won't be formed if there are already high blood levels of lactate. How can this be true? Lactate is formed due to insuffient oxygen, not due to blood lactate levels at any given point in time.

I have no opinion on Sportlegs, but this is very questionable science and a horrible way to promote why a product works.
[

QUOTE=SportLegs]Willow publicly admitted this in a post-race interview with Assistant Editor Daisy Bauer published in Mountain Biking Magazine, September 2004, pp. 42-46, 48, 50-52.

Kerry, if you're really interested in scientific double-blind controlled studies, here you go:

In Fall 2003, Ohio's Kent State University conducted formal randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials under the supervision of Exercise Science Professor Ellen Glickman, Ph.D., a Fellow of the respected American College of Sports Medicine [“ACSM”]. Test subjects who took SportLegs instead of a placebo one hour before testing demonstrated an average 15.6% increase in Lactate Threshold [“LT”]. This LT increase allowed subjects to keep exercising against steadily increasing resistance 11.2% longer. Their VO2max aerobic capacity also increased by 12.8%.

In Fall 2004, Washington, D.C. exercise physiologist and road cycling coach Susan Hefler conducted double-blind tests of SportLegs vs. placebo on 36 of her clients, riding stationary ten-mile time trials on CompuTrainers. 78% were an average 2% faster using SportLegs. 81% could generate an average 8% more power in a 15 second “jump”. And 86% of Coach Hefler’s riders reported that performing 2% faster felt an average 23% easier.

While these studies are both unpublished, Bicycling magazine was sufficiently impressed by the buzz among top Pro racers to ask four of their staffers to test SportLegs during June, 2005. In their September 2005 issue, p. 93, author (and SportLegs convert) Selene Yeager writes, "SportLegs contains lactate forms of calcium and magnesium [plus vitamin D]. Taken an hour before exercise, it pre-loads your bloodstream with lactate and tricks your muscles into thinking they don't need to make more- a sneaky way to raise your lactate threshold and boost performance, according to unpublished research at Ohio's Kent State University. THE RESULTS: 'It's like a good day in a bottle,' chorus the 'rats.' 'My legs kept going and feeling fresh, even up the final climb,' said one racer after a six-hour singlespeed mountain bike enduro. 'It's the kind of feeling you have when you're in a sweet groove,' said another who used it over eight hard rides, including two crits. The rec riders didn't notice exceptional performance gains, but did report feeling fresher. [Echoes Coach Hefler's results above.] 'It took longer to reach the burn point,' said one. 'My legs [still] burned on steep climbs, but I was able to ride faster,' said another."

Hope this helps.

Carl[/QUOTE]


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## Kerry Irons

*Cramping*

I too have had cramping issues, perhaps because my sweat is very salty and I lose a lot of electrolytes due to sweat. I have had great luck with simply adding 1/2 teaspoon each of table salt (for sodium) and salt substitute (for potassium) to my "feed back" for long rides, plus a couple of antacid tablets. That gives me sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, etc. I eat fig bars on the bike (salted fig bars, actually) and have salted nuts, cookies, and a Coke at the break. This seems to have virtually eliminated cramps for me, regardless of the weather or the distance. My point is that you don't need high-priced supplements, that may contain things you don't want. Here's some more on cramps:

VeloNews, July 1, 2003, Monique Ryan. Cramp causes are a mystery but most likely are due to muscular exhaustion, low fuel, bio mechanical problems, fluid losses, and mineral deficiencies. Na losses per liter of sweat have been measured from 115 to 2300 mg. Studies on football players have shown that players who lost more Na were more likely to cramp (3 gm/hr vs 1 gm/hr). Drink 16-32 oz one hour before the ride, and then 8-16 oz 20-30 minutes before the ride. Add 1/2 tsp salt per large bottle for Na supplementation during a ride - that's 1200 mg of sodium.

Adventure Cyclist Sept/Oct. 2001 Muscle Cramps comments by Nancy Clark. 5 theories (none proven, as science does not know the cause of cramps, and cannot cause cramps predictably): 1) hydration, 2) lack of calcium (doubted by nutritionists), 3) lack of sodium, 4) lack of potassium (not likely since the body has so much) 5) lack of pickle juice (lots of ions). Note, musicians get hand cramps, even though they are not likely experiencing any of 1-5. My own experience has been that electrolytes and hydration are the keys. 

Your check for hydration can be either weighing yourself as you leave and when you get back (retrospective), having to pee every 2 hours or so during the ride (concurrent), or keeping track of past rides and how much you drank and drinking more this time (prospective). It never hurts to down a glass of water just before you get on the bike.

www.roadbikerider.com/cramps.htm


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## Kerry Irons

*And so it goes*



peloton said:


> 'it pre-loads your bloodstream with lactate and tricks your muscles into thinking they don't need to make more- a sneaky way to raise your lactate threshold and boost performance' Quote from Sportlegs
> 
> I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I'm a college exercise physiology instructor for what it's worth, and this quote just doesn't adhere to the basics of physiology.


Bottom line is what we have here is specious research application used to promote the product that may just really be sea salt. I'm not saying the research studies were bad, but one of the most common practices in the supplement industry is to take a study and mis-construe the results into an ad campaign. If you really want a laugh, check out Epovar (from Fizigen - so you can mentally put the words together and get Epogen). They claim an 80% increase in VO2 Max from a magnesium salt supplement! Yahoo


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## peloton

I agree with you 100% Kerry.

I could go on and on about the quotes supporting this supplement that were in this thread. There is a lot of BS there that is in plain sight.

I also wonder why the only 2 supporting studies were unpublished? Surely if they were well researched they could have benefited the knowledge base, and would have been published if that were the case. Maybe they are still in review at this point for further publication, so I'll reserve judgement.

Sportlegs might be a perfectly fine supplement to adequate nutrition, but this sort of misleading marketing used by many in the supplement industry is really an insult to the consumer's intelligence.



Kerry Irons said:


> Bottom line is what we have here is specious research application used to promote the product that may just really be sea salt. I'm not saying the research studies were bad, but one of the most common practices in the supplement industry is to take a study and mis-construe the results into an ad campaign. If you really want a laugh, check out Epovar (from Fizigen - so you can mentally put the words together and get Epogen). They claim an 80% increase in VO2 Max from a magnesium salt supplement! Yahoo


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## CFBlue

*Homemade recipe seems expensive*



Kerry Irons said:


> I too have had cramping issues, perhaps because my sweat is very salty and I lose a lot of electrolytes due to sweat. I have had great luck with simply adding 1/2 teaspoon each of table salt (for sodium) and salt substitute (for potassium) to my "feed back" for long rides, plus a couple of antacid tablets. That gives me sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, etc. I eat fig bars on the bike (salted fig bars, actually) and have salted nuts, cookies, and a Coke at the break. This seems to have virtually eliminated cramps for me, regardless of the weather or the distance. My point is that you don't need high-priced supplements, that may contain things you don't want. Here's some more on cramps:
> 
> VeloNews, July 1, 2003, Monique Ryan. Cramp causes are a mystery but most likely are due to muscular exhaustion, low fuel, bio mechanical problems, fluid losses, and mineral deficiencies. Na losses per liter of sweat have been measured from 115 to 2300 mg. Studies on football players have shown that players who lost more Na were more likely to cramp (3 gm/hr vs 1 gm/hr). Drink 16-32 oz one hour before the ride, and then 8-16 oz 20-30 minutes before the ride. Add 1/2 tsp salt per large bottle for Na supplementation during a ride - that's 1200 mg of sodium.
> 
> Adventure Cyclist Sept/Oct. 2001 Muscle Cramps comments by Nancy Clark. 5 theories (none proven, as science does not know the cause of cramps, and cannot cause cramps predictably): 1) hydration, 2) lack of calcium (doubted by nutritionists), 3) lack of sodium, 4) lack of potassium (not likely since the body has so much) 5) lack of pickle juice (lots of ions). Note, musicians get hand cramps, even though they are not likely experiencing any of 1-5. My own experience has been that electrolytes and hydration are the keys.
> 
> Your check for hydration can be either weighing yourself as you leave and when you get back (retrospective), having to pee every 2 hours or so during the ride (concurrent), or keeping track of past rides and how much you drank and drinking more this time (prospective). It never hurts to down a glass of water just before you get on the bike.
> 
> www.roadbikerider.com/cramps.htm


 "My point is that you don't need high-priced supplements"...

I am not an excercise physiologist, nor do I play one on TV, but the home made recipe you quote above seems much more expensive than a dose of Sportlegs, which ranges from a high of $1.33 to a low of $.50. The Coke alone costs more!


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## Kerry Irons

*Price per calorie*



The Master Cylinder said:


> the home made recipe you quote above seems much more expensive than a dose of Sportlegs, which ranges from a high of $1.33 to a low of $.50. The Coke alone costs more!


I think that if you priced it per calorie, you would see how much cheaper food is than supplements. In the specific case of Sportlegs, you need to compare the price of table salt, salt substitute, and generic antacid tablets, since Sportlegs is mostly supplying minerals.


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## asgelle

SportLegs said:


> In Fall 2003, Ohio's Kent State University conducted formal randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials under the supervision of Exercise Science Professor Ellen Glickman, Ph.D., a Fellow of the respected American College of Sports Medicine [“ACSM”]. Test subjects who took SportLegs instead of a placebo one hour before testing demonstrated an average 15.6% increase in Lactate Threshold [“LT”]. This LT increase allowed subjects to keep exercising against steadily increasing resistance 11.2% longer. Their VO2max aerobic capacity also increased by 12.8%.
> 
> In Fall 2004, Washington, D.C. exercise physiologist and road cycling coach Susan Hefler conducted double-blind tests of SportLegs vs. placebo on 36 of her clients, riding stationary ten-mile time trials on CompuTrainers. 78% were an average 2% faster using SportLegs. 81% could generate an average 8% more power in a 15 second “jump”. And 86% of Coach Hefler’s riders reported that performing 2% faster felt an average 23% easier.
> 
> While these studies are both unpublished, ...


I too think "unpublished" is the key word here. One of the functions of peer review is to allow experts in the field to evaluate an article and determine that it has legitimate value. I'm certainly no expert in the field and so have to rely on the opinions of those who are. There are many reasons why a study is not published, some having to do with the validity of the results, some not. However, until a study is published, there is no way to evaluate the results or methadology. Certainly the fact that it has been two years since the first study and it still remains unpublished (or submitted for publication from what I can tell) raises serious questions in my mind about the results.


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## SportLegs

"I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I'm a college exercise physiology instructor for what it's worth, and this quote just doesn't adhere to the basics of physiology. Lactate is produced by insufficient O2 at within the muscle cell during work."

Do they still teach FORTRAN and COBOL at your college?

Peloton, the "basics of physiology" you quote is what they taught thirty years ago. But it's way out of date today. Just check any current exercise physiology textbook. Or journal:
"For much of the 20th century, lactate was considered a dead-end waste product of glycolysis due to hypoxia, the primary cause of the O2 debt following exercise, a major cause of muscle fatigue, and a key factor in acidosis-induced tissue damage. Since the 1970s, a 'lactate revolution' has occurred. At present, we are in the midst of a lactate shuttle era; the lactate paradigm has shifted. It now appears that increased lactate production and concentration as a result of anoxia or dysoxia are often the exception rather than the rule..." 
-"Lactate metabolism: a new paradigm for the third millennium", Journal of Physiology 558.1 (2004) pp 5-30 by L. Bruce Gladden, Ph.D. of Auburn University.

You write that "Lactate isn't formed or not formed due to blood lactate levels." Actually, it is. Dr. George Brooks, father of the "lactate shuttle" theory, concluded "When arterial concentration is raised by exogenous lactate infusion, contracting muscles switch from net lactate release to net uptake..." on p. 897 of "Current concepts in lactate exchange" published in 1991 in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol. 23, No. 8. This is precisely what Bicycling magazine's Selene Yeager grasped when she wrote that SportLegs' lactates "pre-load your bloodstream with lactate and tricks your muscles into thinking they don't need to make more."


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## peloton

Great, you found a couple of quotes and bastardized them pointing out how little you understood of what I wrote. 

I described the lacatate shuttle, and I never insinuated that lactate is a waste product. Lactate is still ulitmately created by the absence of oxygen within the working sarcomere. Pyruvate (created after anerobic energy metabolization) is used in the Krebs cycle to producte ATP (adenosine triphosphate- the energy your cells run on). When there isn't enough oxygen present to use pyruvate in the Kreb's cycle then pyruvate grabs a couple hydrogen ions (free radicals) and attachs to them to create lactate. Then the lactate shuttle transports lactate out of the muscle cell and back to the liver where it can be used as energy for the working muscle. That is the lactate shuttle, in pure and simple english. Lactate is formed in the muscle _due to a lack of oxygen _ for aerobic energy metabolization. To insinuate through a random quote that I implied lactate is a waste product is just as misleading as your advertising you are trying to defend.

I would wonder why you would throw quotes like this out here with obviously little comprehension to back up some very questionable advertising. I had stated I had no opinion of how your product works until now, but now I know very well how you intend to twist advertising and selected scientific quotes to make your product sound great. That's all I'll need to know, and unfortunately how I'll use my influence when I'm asked about your product. I'm a scientist, and not a PR expert, but I can't see how this is good for your business.

Best of luck to you, but this is a bad way to advertise and you are still using some questionable claims.




SportLegs said:


> "I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I'm a college exercise physiology instructor for what it's worth, and this quote just doesn't adhere to the basics of physiology. Lactate is produced by insufficient O2 at within the muscle cell during work."
> 
> Do they still teach FORTRAN and COBOL at your college?
> 
> Peloton, the "basics of physiology" you quote is what they taught thirty years ago. But it's way out of date today. Just check any current exercise physiology textbook. Or journal:
> "For much of the 20th century, lactate was considered a dead-end waste product of glycolysis due to hypoxia, the primary cause of the O2 debt following exercise, a major cause of muscle fatigue, and a key factor in acidosis-induced tissue damage. Since the 1970s, a 'lactate revolution' has occurred. At present, we are in the midst of a lactate shuttle era; the lactate paradigm has shifted. It now appears that increased lactate production and concentration as a result of anoxia or dysoxia are often the exception rather than the rule..."
> -"Lactate metabolism: a new paradigm for the third millennium", Journal of Physiology 558.1 (2004) pp 5-30 by L. Bruce Gladden, Ph.D. of Auburn University.
> 
> You write that "Lactate isn't formed or not formed due to blood lactate levels." Actually, it is. Dr. George Brooks, father of the "lactate shuttle" theory, concluded "When arterial concentration is raised by exogenous lactate infusion, contracting muscles switch from net lactate release to net uptake..." on p. 897 of "Current concepts in lactate exchange" published in 1991 in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol. 23, No. 8. This is precisely what Bicycling magazine's Selene Yeager grasped when she wrote that SportLegs' lactates "pre-load your bloodstream with lactate and tricks your muscles into thinking they don't need to make more."


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## peloton

I got on Sportlegs' website, and I have a couple more questions that perhaps you could help me with?

Sportlegs contains calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D. Wouldn't you get these things from a healthy diet or any decent multivitamin? It would seem a multi containing these 3 ingredients would do the same thing as Sportlegs, unless there is a secret ingredient.

'So it’s the acidity of this acidic lactate, or lactic acid, that causes the “burning” sensation familiar to seasoned athletes and weekend warriors alike.' Sportlegs website

I was under the impression that science had not come to a definitive conclusion as to why we feel burning from our muscles during exercise. There is a condition in which the afflicted do not produce lactate, but they still feel burning sensations during exertion. How could that be if lactate is what causes burning?


'Worse, related research has shown as it becomes more acidic, it travels across cell boundaries less quickly. The “lactate shuttle” slows to a crawl, and lactic acid pools in your muscles. And you hurt. Worse still, you feel “out of gas”: The energy represented by your lactic acid isn’t as readily exchanged as fuel. So instead of powering your victory, it sits in your muscles, manifesting itself as evening ache, night cramping and even soreness the next day.'

Please support this old school thinking that lactate causes muscle soreness the next day or even a few hours after exercise. This is not the case at all. It is more likely disruption of the Z lines in the muscle, and DOMS. Lactate would have long since been shuttled away.


With your understanding of muscular work physiology you should be able to explain. There are a lot of other questions your website begs to ask as well. But, you let that cat out of the bag....




peloton said:


> Great, you found a couple of quotes and bastardized them pointing out how little you understood of what I wrote.
> 
> I described the lacatate shuttle, and I never insinuated that lactate is a waste product. Lactate is still ulitmately created by the absence of oxygen within the working sarcomere. Pyruvate (created after anerobic energy metabolization) is used in the Krebs cycle to producte ATP (adenosine triphosphate- the energy your cells run on). When there isn't enough oxygen present to use pyruvate in the Kreb's cycle then pyruvate grabs a couple hydrogen ions (free radicals) and attachs to them to create lactate. Then the lactate shuttle transports lactate out of the muscle cell and back to the liver where it can be used as energy for the working muscle. That is the lactate shuttle, in pure and simple english. Lactate is formed in the muscle _due to a lack of oxygen _ for aerobic energy metabolization. To insinuate through a random quote that I implied lactate is a waste product is just as misleading as your advertising you are trying to defend.
> 
> I would wonder why you would throw quotes like this out here with obviously little comprehension to back up some very questionable advertising. I had stated I had no opinion of how your product works until now, but now I know very well how you intend to twist advertising and selected scientific quotes to make your product sound great. That's all I'll need to know, and unfortunately how I'll use my influence when I'm asked about your product. I'm a scientist, and not a PR expert, but I can't see how this is good for your business.
> 
> Best of luck to you, but this is a bad way to advertise and you are still using some questionable claims.


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## peloton

Another quick question-

Why were the only 2 supporting studies for Sportlegs unpublished? It would seem if they could enhance the knowledge base that these studies should see publication. What sort of quality research goes unpublished?

Has there ever been a double blind study comparing SportLeges with a mulitvitamin (which contains all of what SportLegs contains)? That would be interesting to see.

Could you also describe how calcium, magnesium, and Vitamin D when taken before exercise elevate blood lactate levels?

Is the placebo effect real?



peloton said:


> I got on Sportlegs' website, and I have a couple more questions that perhaps you could help me with?
> 
> Sportlegs contains calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D. Wouldn't you get these things from a healthy diet or any decent multivitamin? It would seem a multi containing these 3 ingredients would do the same thing as Sportlegs, unless there is a secret ingredient.
> 
> 'So it’s the acidity of this acidic lactate, or lactic acid, that causes the “burning” sensation familiar to seasoned athletes and weekend warriors alike.' Sportlegs website
> 
> I was under the impression that science had not come to a definitive conclusion as to why we feel burning from our muscles during exercise. There is a condition in which the afflicted do not produce lactate, but they still feel burning sensations during exertion. How could that be if lactate is what causes burning?
> 
> 
> 'Worse, related research has shown as it becomes more acidic, it travels across cell boundaries less quickly. The “lactate shuttle” slows to a crawl, and lactic acid pools in your muscles. And you hurt. Worse still, you feel “out of gas”: The energy represented by your lactic acid isn’t as readily exchanged as fuel. So instead of powering your victory, it sits in your muscles, manifesting itself as evening ache, night cramping and even soreness the next day.'
> 
> Please support this old school thinking that lactate causes muscle soreness the next day or even a few hours after exercise. This is not the case at all. It is more likely disruption of the Z lines in the muscle, and DOMS. Lactate would have long since been shuttled away.
> 
> 
> With your understanding of muscular work physiology you should be able to explain. There are a lot of other questions your website begs to ask as well. But, you let that cat out of the bag....


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