# Driving vs Biking cost debate



## KendleFox (Sep 5, 2005)

I love to ride my bike, and if it were feasible, I’d ditch my mini-van, truck, and motorcycle. But I have three young kids (9, 7, & 4) and live 13 miles from work and 4 miles from Wal-Mart. 

What kills me is the fact that bike parts seem extremely overpriced. This combined with the extra time it takes to bike, and eating quite a bit more food, makes it seem more expensive to bike, then drive.

With gas prices continuously rising with no relief in site, where is the cut off in gas price where commuting by bike becomes cost effective for you?


----------



## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

KendleFox said:


> I love to ride my bike, and if it were feasible, I’d ditch my mini-van, truck, and motorcycle. But I have three young kids (9, 7, & 4) and live 13 miles from work and 4 miles from Wal-Mart.
> 
> What kills me is the fact that bike parts seem extremely overpriced. This combined with the extra time it takes to bike, and eating quite a bit more food, makes it seem more expensive to bike, then drive.
> 
> With gas prices continuously rising with no relief in site, where is the cut off in gas price where commuting by bike becomes cost effective for you?


I commuted 40 miles round trip for awhile, and was convinced I ate more than I saved in gas... but still, the health benefits were priceless. I rode a beater/rain bike- recycled old steel built of spare parts... maybe had $100 invested.


----------



## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

You're going to have to keep the minivan for the kids, but for the price of a truck and motorcycle, you can put a lot of money into your bike and stomach.


----------



## jrm (Dec 23, 2001)

*i had commuting in mind*



KendleFox said:


> I love to ride my bike, and if it were feasible, I’d ditch my mini-van, truck, and motorcycle. But I have three young kids (9, 7, & 4) and live 13 miles from work and 4 miles from Wal-Mart.
> 
> What kills me is the fact that bike parts seem extremely overpriced. This combined with the extra time it takes to bike, and eating quite a bit more food, makes it seem more expensive to bike, then drive.
> 
> With gas prices continuously rising with no relief in site, where is the cut off in gas price where commuting by bike becomes cost effective for you?


When i moved to the area. Im around 7 miles from work. My truck sits in the driveway all week while I either ride or take the bus to and from work. 

You know you wouldnt have to commit to riding the whole dsitance right now. You could mix the ride in with a partial trip on transit until you feel confident about theride and then do the whole commute ride.


----------



## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

I figured my savings for a year, and it was _maybe$1000. My commute is 32 mi. round trip. What I figured was just the cost of gas. I didn't calculate oil, tires, maintenence, etc on either vehicle, bike or car.

While the savings is nice, if gas cost $.35/gal, I'd still commute via bike. Health benefits, peace & quiet time, doing what I enjoy the most, environmental benefits, to me outweigh the financial stuff at least for now._


----------



## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*You've got to be kidding!*



KendleFox said:


> What kills me is the fact that bike parts seem extremely overpriced. This combined with the extra time it takes to bike, and eating quite a bit more food, makes it seem more expensive to bike, then drive.


Have you done the math? How many bike parts to you need to buy in a year for a commuter bike? When I was commuting to work, I figured I easily saved $2K per year without even thinking about the health benefits. "makes it seem more expensive to bike" sounds like you haven't even run the numbers. There's NO WAY the cost of riding a bike should be anywhere close to driving.


----------



## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

We have one car. I commute to work everyday on my bike. Our car is a Honda Pilot that gets decent highway mileage for it's size, but we live on Oahu so highway mileage never really gets figured. Around town in stop and go traffic it probably gets around 15 mpg. The drive to work is a 40 mile round trip and with gas around $3.30 out here, that is $9 a trip. I usually work six days a week so the gas would run me around $54, so figure around $2500 a year savings in gas. In addition to that, we don't make a second car or insurance payment. I will be conservative and say that it saves $300 a month plus no upkeep (tires, oil change, etc) so add another $3600 to that. Now I am up to $6100 a year in savings by commuting. 
I built up a new commuter when I moved here about 18 months ago. I spent $325 on a Soma frame and fork plus another $600 or so on stuff like a wheelset, tires, additional parts. I used an old set of 9 speed Chorus Ergo levers and derailleurs that were left over from an upgrade but could have easily found them on ebay. Adding it all up, I just don't see how I could lose on this deal. Plus I get to ride a bike everyday and still have a family life.


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

Edit: Ok, I thought I replied to the original poster but I seem to have replied to bigbill. This is directed at the opening post.

I think you're probably forgetting about the cost of car maintenance.

For me, the gas costs versus food costs are probably close to a wash. When I ride, it is 28 miles each way and I definitely have to eat a little extra. My driving route is slightly farther and is one gallon of gas or a little less each way (I have a Honda Civic and it is mostly highway miles to work). At about $3 per gallon, the food required for the 28 miles each way is only going to be less money if I plan well. Otherwise I can't be picky since I don't have my car at work to go to the grocery store and I end up buying food at work that is not a great deal.

However, if you factor in the maintenance costs it is not even close. Keeping a bike in good working order is drastically less expensive than keeping a motor vehicle in good working order. Oil changes, repairs, tires, etc, all make the cost per mile of driving much higher than it seems at first glance.


----------



## filtersweep (Feb 4, 2004)

Consider that if it costs $500/month in total car ownership (and it would actually be higher if you factor in depreciation and the down payment involved), I need to work maybe 15 hours/month (after taxes) to pay for it. If I work 20 days/month, you can see how much work time is tied up in simply owning it (45 min/day)- and that doesn't even count the time spent driving to and from work.




nate said:


> Edit: Ok, I thought I replied to the original poster but I seem to have replied to bigbill. This is directed at the opening post.
> 
> I think you're probably forgetting about the cost of car maintenance.
> 
> ...


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

filtersweep said:


> Consider that if it costs $500/month in total car ownership (and it would actually be higher if you factor in depreciation and the down payment involved), I need to work maybe 15 hours/month (after taxes) to pay for it. If I work 20 days/month, you can see how much work time is tied up in simply owning it (45 min/day)- and that doesn't even count the time spent driving to and from work.


Excellent points.

Of course, not everyone finances car purchases so payments are not always a factor. I got a reliable used car and payed cash rather than financing something newer and/or nicer. My car has no bling and I call it the Emasculator, but it was a sensible financial decision, the bane of virility throughout the US of A.


----------



## bsdc (Feb 15, 2002)

nate said:


> Excellent points.
> 
> Of course, not everyone finances car purchases so payments are not always a factor. I got a reliable used car and payed cash rather than financing something newer and/or nicer. My car has no bling and I call it the Emasculator, but it was a sensible financial decision, the bane of virility throughout the US of A.


Wait a second! Let me see if I've got this right. You didn't finance a new car? You paid cash for a used car that you could afford? I'm confused.

http://danwho.net/mp/index.php?id=snl_dontbuystuff


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

*Who can put a cost on sanity?*

The emotional cost of driving is quite high, cycling OTOH is a pleasure.

That makes the question not how much money driving costs but what it does to your wellbeing.


----------



## Thorn Bait (Feb 3, 2004)

nate said:


> My car has no bling and I call it the Emasculator, but it was a sensible financial decision, the bane of virility throughout the US of A.


Ford Fiesta?


----------



## jh_on_the_cape (Apr 14, 2004)

I have thought about this alot while biking.

First, put aside the obvious mental and physical health benefits to cycling. There is a financial side to that (medical bills, etc...) but let's assume you are getting enough excersize and dont mind driving a car.

Your car costs more than gas: insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc. However, lots of these costs are fixed so if you drive 5k a year or 20k a year, you pay the same (insurance and taxes). Biking would all of a sudden make more sense if we paid per mile insurance. I wish that was the case because people who drive more are exposed to more risk and it would only be fair. We get a 10% discount for driving less than 7500 miles a year. big whoop! average joe pays about $1k in insurance to drive about 15k miles a year: 7 cents a mile. drive half that... 14 cents a mile...

The big killer that makes me want to bike are maintenance and depreciation. But only part of the depreciation is mileage. If your car sits in the driveway, its depreciating. If you have an older car, the depreciation rate goes down.

My general belief is that we get some extra year(s) out of our cars because I bike to work frequently. We pay cash and drive our cars until they are pretty worthless, then keep driving them until they are dead. So say a car lasts 11 years instead of 10, and a car costs $20k... I saved like $2k over 10 years... I spend a lot more on bikes than that!
edit: reread this and think about it this way: i also saved on a year of maintenace...

But if you do payments (4 years) and keep your car for an extra year with no payments because it's still got low mileage and is in good condition, say 3.6k a year payments (300 a month), so 3.6k over 5 years... better but not great.

Where you get big savings is by eliminating one of your cars. But until you do that, the cost structure for private car ownership favors driving a lot. Especially if you buy something like a used Honda Civic.

So it boils down to the first point: mental and physical fitness I get from biking. I get most of my miles commuting. But saving money is not a big reason for bike commuting.

I would love it if someone corrected or improved my thoughts on this... it would help justify more bike purchases!


----------



## KendleFox (Sep 5, 2005)

*Some good points..*

Thanks so far for the many replies.

It is good to see what people think about this topic. As the gas prices get higher, RBR will get more members.

My future plans are to sell my motercycle and use the money to get a true tour bike, or a tandum.

The truck was given to me by my mother-in-law, from her brother who died. It has sentimemtal value, so I need to figure out a polite way to get rid of it.

I rode into work this morning using a longer but safer and more senic route. Damm it felt good...


----------



## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

Here you go.

http://www.commutesolutions.org/calc.htm


----------



## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Add it up*



Kerry Irons said:


> Have you done the math? How many bike parts to you need to buy in a year for a commuter bike? When I was commuting to work, I figured I easily saved $2K per year without even thinking about the health benefits. "makes it seem more expensive to bike" sounds like you haven't even run the numbers. There's NO WAY the cost of riding a bike should be anywhere close to driving.


I once did a financial comparison of the cost of commuting by car vs. the cost of commuting by bike. Figured in where the costs of fuel, maintenance, insurance, and amortization of the initial purchase price. Unfortunately, I no longer have all the numbers, but a few things popped out of the analysis:

The cost of fuel for a car is much less than the cost of fuel for cyclist, on a per mile basis. Even cheap food carbohydrates, like rice or potatos, cost far per calorie than gasoline, and even when you figure in the higher energy required to move a motor vehicle, the per mile costs were still lower for the automobile.

Maintenance costs for bicycles are higher on a per mile basis for bikes than for cars. For example, even if you pay $30 a pair for cheap bike tires and 5,000 miles out of them, that's still twice as expensive as paying $150 for a set of cheap car tires and getting 50,000 miles out of them.

When it is all added up, riding a bike is about half as expensive on a per mile basis than driving, if there is only one person per car. But if you car pool with two or more people in the car, driving is cheaper.

I haven't added up the numbers, but I suspect that using a motor scooter as personal transportation would be far cheaper than either a bicycle or a car.


----------



## StageHand (Dec 27, 2002)

Mark McM, You and a few others have made the following mistake (Or at least didn't mention how you accounted for it): Assuming I maintain a similar lifestyle, continuing to ride recreationally, playing other sports and leading a more active than average lifestyle, I'd still probably eat as much, if not more since I'd have a bit more time to do it. If I drove, I'd still be eating as much food as before, and paying for gas on top of that. Maybe for some there are fewer energy bars and other specialized stuff that I don't eat/drink that would find it's way out of your diet, but I'm still pretty sure that people who drive still need to eat.


----------



## 867-5309 (Oct 7, 2005)

*By any measurement*

My cost of commuting is defined via subways and even then it is cheaper to ride. I have a 9-10 mile trip each way. If I were to go public for 1 month it would be 70 bucks for a monthly pass. Bike cost is 200 for the fixie conversion. 

The real issue beyond health is time. On any given day the cost of commuting vs the cost of motorized transport is minimal. Factor it out over a year or two, however, and the saving acrue.

Plus you get to eat more, I consider that a bonus!


----------



## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

I get up, get dressed, brush my teeth, and out the door on an empty stomach for my 45 minute/13 mile commute. By the time I get to work I am starving. I keep cereal, milk, and fruit at work to eat after I get dressed. All of these items are healthy and reasonably priced. I brown bag my lunch as well. I don't know where the added cost of eating more comes from. If I wasn't commuting, I would be doing other rides and still be as hungry. I do agree that bike maintenance can cost more, I ride on a poorly maintained MUT so I do spend some money on parts periodically. A chain only lasts around 1500-1800 miles, I go through a back tire every chainlife and a front tire every two chains. An armadillo tire is around $30, so I spend $180 a year on tires and around $100 on chains. I would spend $200 a month on gas if I commuted by car.


----------



## thbirks (Aug 6, 2002)

*priceless?*

Come on now, are you really telling me that you may drive instead of bike because of the cost? I think the price of food is a wash. I haven't driven to work in about 3 years and I eat the same or less than I used to. I'm just not getting fat like the rest of the country. Obviously the cost of driving a car includes various factors besides the cost of the gas the car runs on. 

You make a good point that in the U.S. driving seems like a bargain. It is, because driving is highly subsidized through taxes. Road construction and maintainance, traffic policing, military actions to secure oil, and much more are being paid by all taxpayers regardless of how much they drive. 

As for bike parts being expensive. I think a lot of people try to compare a bike to a car. You can buy a tire for your car for $50 (maybe less) or you could spend $50 on a really nice tire for your bike. Some people think this is insane. It's not. The $50 car tire is good enough but it's not high-end. The $50 bike tire is a top-of-line racing tire. How much do you think a racing tire for a car costs? 

As for bikes and parts there's usually a middle level where maximum value can be obtained. For example Shimano 105 components are very close to Ultegra in performance but are a lot cheaper. The law of diminishing returns certainly applies to bikes.


----------



## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Fuel costs*



OverStuffed said:


> Mark McM, You and a few others have made the following mistake (Or at least didn't mention how you accounted for it): Assuming I maintain a similar lifestyle, continuing to ride recreationally, playing other sports and leading a more active than average lifestyle, I'd still probably eat as much, if not more since I'd have a bit more time to do it. If I drove, I'd still be eating as much food as before, and paying for gas on top of that. Maybe for some there are fewer energy bars and other specialized stuff that I don't eat/drink that would find it's way out of your diet, but I'm still pretty sure that people who drive still need to eat.


In the analysis I had done, I only figured in the cost of the extra food consumed for commuting. If, for example, you burned 500 calories an hour while cycling, and your commute was an 16 mile round trip and took an hour each day, then the fuel cost for cycling would be the cost of that additional 500 calories. How much does 500 calores cost? Well, if the additional calories came from 5 oz. of rice or pasta at $0.10 an ounce, you'd have to pay an additional $0.50 cents a day. Doesn't sound like much, does it? But compare that to gasoline. Say you drove a reasonably fuel efficient car that could transport 4 people and got 32 miles per gallon - it would take 1/2 gallon per day, or 1/8 gallon per person. If gasoline cost $2.80 per gallon, that would be $1.40 per day, or $0.35 per person. So sure, if you under-utilized the capacity of your vehicle, the fuel costs will be higher to drive than to ride a bike. But if you used the full capacity of your vehicle (1 person per bicycle, 4 people per car), the fuel costs of driving would be cheaper.

When I originally did the analysis, gasoline was cheaper (under $2.00 per gallon), and so the fuel costs of driving were more in line with the fuel costs of cycling - even though a bicycle can far carry a far smaller payload. Per pound of payload, the fuel costs of cycling are far higher than driving.


----------



## MN Dan (Nov 22, 2005)

*Commuting by bike makes sense for me.*

Commuting by bike only saves me about 100 to 150 dollars a month max in fuel even though I drive a Suburban. And yes most of that goes for bike or fishing gear. I agree with another poster, that the food is a wash. For me the benefit is that I can stay in shape for free. The local Lifetime fitness is about $60 a month. I basically pay myself every time I ride instead of driving. Plus I love being on the bike. No time for jogging and exercise equipment won't fit in our 2 bedroom town home. So for an extra 10 to 20 minutes per commute I get three things, saving money/gas, fitness, and enjoyment. Oh and a little peace and quiet. 

Bike parts can be expensive, but you can also get by with used 200 bike or a new fixed gear for 500 or so. I think it depends on what bike parts you buy; Sora vs 105 vs Dura ace. And if you already own a bike because you ride for fun, fitness, or racing then that part of the commuting investment is already paid for.


----------



## Folsom_Blues (Apr 10, 2004)

*I took the plunge*

When I turned in my last leased vehicle, I didn't leave the dealership with another one. So, I have been going car free for about 3 months now. And I know for a FACT that I have saved well over $2,000 so far. Granted, I don't have to lease a new vehicle, but I hate car repairs and I felt the reliability was worth the money. My bike is MORE reliable for a fraction of the cost.


----------



## Chris H (Jul 7, 2005)

I'm impressed, I never expected to see the word amortization used conversationally in this forum...

Interesting topic. I've enjoyed reading some of the responses because it's food for thought.


----------



## FrontRanger (May 19, 2004)

So not to hijack the thread but I am trying to understand those of you that are carless. I frequently head out of town for work/pleasure and trips to the trailhead to mountain bike and what not. How do you guys deal with all of this? Do any of you carless people have kids and if so how do you get them to daycare/school in the middle of winter?


----------



## thbirks (Aug 6, 2002)

*thanks for asking*



FrontRanger said:


> So not to hijack the thread but I am trying to understand those of you that are carless. I frequently head out of town for work/pleasure and trips to the trailhead to mountain bike and what not. How do you guys deal with all of this? Do any of you carless people have kids and if so how do you get them to daycare/school in the middle of winter?


I prefer to call myself carfree. Whether you realize it or not you've structured your life around the automobile. Where you live, work and send your kids is determined by how you get around. Here's an article my brother wrote that you might like. http://bikedenver.org/commuter.php?commuter=06_03

The whole kids thing baffles me. It's one thing that people always bring up. I don't have kids but if I did I would make sure i lived in a community where essential destinations were within walking distance. It may cost more to live in a place like that then in some car-based suburb but by not having a car I'll be saving money and my kids will be able to go places under their own power. Basically we've spent the past 70 years or so developing the USA for the automobile. I don't want to live my life stuck in a metal box. 
So we need to build our cities for people not cars. It's not always perfect not owning a car, dating is usually awkward, but someone has to show people the way.


----------



## jh_on_the_cape (Apr 14, 2004)

thbirks said:


> I
> 
> The whole kids thing baffles me. It's one thing that people always bring up. I don't have kids but if I did I would make sure i lived in a community where essential destinations were within walking distance. It may cost more to live in a place like that then in some car-based suburb but by not having a car I'll be saving money and my kids will be able to go places under their own power. Basically we've spent the past 70 years or so developing the USA for the automobile. I don't want to live my life stuck in a metal box.
> So we need to build our cities for people not cars. It's not always perfect not owning a car, dating is usually awkward, but someone has to show people the way.


MUCH easier said than done. Housing prices eclipse transportation prices buy a huge amount. I would love to live near work/daycare/etc but it is too expensive. Like a million bucks too expensive. The monthly car bills would not cover the extra mortgage cost, not even close.

You simply cannot live with an infant/toddler and no car unless you have the money to live wherever you want and/or don't work and your kid stays home with you all day or you pay a babysitter to come to your house. You cannot transport a kid by bike the first year safely, no matter what you read on the internet. Ask a pediatrician, a kid's neck is too weak. And unless you live in southern california, you cannot move a kid by bike after that for much of the year.

I wish it were otherwise... i was carfree for many many years. I miss it. 

Many families could do with one small car and bikes/public trans. etc. Carfree is tough with a family, but most US families do not need the 2 huge SUVs.


----------



## CFBlue (Jun 28, 1999)

thbirks said:


> I prefer to call myself carfree. Whether you realize it or not you've structured your life around the automobile. Where you live, work and send your kids is determined by how you get around. Here's an article my brother wrote that you might like. http://bikedenver.org/commuter.php?commuter=06_03
> 
> The whole kids thing baffles me. It's one thing that people always bring up. I don't have kids but if I did I would make sure i lived in a community where essential destinations were within walking distance. It may cost more to live in a place like that then in some car-based suburb but by not having a car I'll be saving money and my kids will be able to go places under their own power. Basically we've spent the past 70 years or so developing the USA for the automobile. I don't want to live my life stuck in a metal box.
> So we need to build our cities for people not cars. It's not always perfect not owning a car, dating is usually awkward, but someone has to show people the way.



I have three kids. One too young to be in school. I am not car-free by commuting on my bike, but I am less-car these days. I used to drive over 20000 miles a year. These days I drive about 6500 a year, including family vacations. I use the bike when I am going alone, and when I am with only one kid. All of my kids ride bikes. We have an SUV to get to and from bike races, to haul large amounts of groceries every two weeks or so, and for family vacations. I have decided that the price of gas doesn't affect me that much. I fill up every two weeks or so, to the tune of about $45 right now. I don't think car-free is practical with kids in a rural area, but less car is easy. If everyone would do it, gas wouldn't be as expensive as it is now.

As far as a cost comparison, I would pay more to ride my bike to work if I had to. I really love doing it.


----------



## FrontRanger (May 19, 2004)

thbirks said:


> I prefer to call myself carfree.......


Great article. But as far as kids go can you imagine taking them to soccer practice or that 7pm school play in the middle of January or that late night run to the grocery store for milk on a bicycle? Add the granparents to the mix(they live across town) and life without a car doesn't seem doable by lots of us parents. I would love to live car free but it isn't going to happen as long as I have a toddler running around and a freelance job that requires tons of traveling around the city/mountains.


----------



## Folsom_Blues (Apr 10, 2004)

*Just watch those doing it...*

I am kid-free myself, but I have a friend with 3 kids and he manages quite well. He drops his kids off via trailer at the daycare. He also has an uber-bike (Tandem plus rear bike AND trailer) in which he can carry all three kids to soccer games, tee ball or to lunch.

And please don't mention safety. Cars are the number one killer of kids over the age of 1. Please re-read that statement. In fact, from age 1 until age 34, cars are the number one cause of death.


----------



## Mark McM (Jun 18, 2005)

*Many live just fine without cars*



jh_on_the_cape said:


> MUCH easier said than done. Housing prices eclipse transportation prices buy a huge amount. I would love to live near work/daycare/etc but it is too expensive. Like a million bucks too expensive. The monthly car bills would not cover the extra mortgage cost, not even close.
> 
> You simply cannot live with an infant/toddler and no car unless you have the money to live wherever you want and/or don't work and your kid stays home with you all day or you pay a babysitter to come to your house. You cannot transport a kid by bike the first year safely, no matter what you read on the internet. Ask a pediatrician, a kid's neck is too weak. And unless you live in southern california, you cannot move a kid by bike after that for much of the year.


It sounds like you live in suburbia. Suburbs are a 20th century construct, and only exist because of cars. Cities have existed for thousands of years, and for good reason - city dwellers use fewer resources per capita than suburbanites (especially for transportation).

As for the "You simply cannot live with an infant/toddler and no car" statement, this is clearly untrue. Plenty of city dwellers have lived for generations with no cars.

If you can not live without a car, it is simply because of where you chose to live - i.e. it is due to choices you made, not choices that were forced upon you.


----------



## thbirks (Aug 6, 2002)

FrontRanger said:


> . I would love to live car free but it isn't going to happen as long as I have a toddler running around and a freelance job that requires tons of traveling around the city/mountains.


I decided that I wanted to live carfree and that it wasn't going to happen while living in NJ and working as a carpenter. I made some sacrifices. I make less money. My parents are now 2500 miles away. But I love living in Denver and I don't need that much money anyway. Could I see taking the kids to soccer practice by bike? Well, yeah. The soccer fields are about a mile away with a bike lane the whole trip. The school play in the middle of winter? The elementary school is a short walk. So probably yes. The high school is a little farther. I'm not real sure about the midnight trip for milk. The 24hr market is about 8 blocks away. We could walk there. 

I'm not trying to knock anybody. We were all born into a world or at least a country where cars are the way of getting around. I decided I didn't want to live like that. But hey I'm a rebel. If you really want to live without a car you can do it.


----------



## FrontRanger (May 19, 2004)

thbirks said:


> I decided that I wanted to live carfree and that it wasn't going to happen while living in NJ and working as a carpenter. I made some sacrifices..........


I would love to live 90% carfree and I think that is doable for most people. I don't want to give up the car for reasons like road trips and mountain bike excursions etc. Mind if I ask what your new profession is? As a freelance photographer I find it impossible to be without a car. No client (of mine) is going to hire me to shoot an event in the mountains if I have no reliable transport there. Sure I could rent a car for those occasions but that is not "car free".

I really think the lifestyle you have chosen is commendable. I think we can all take something away from your example. Since I am in Denver (burbs) we should ride sometime. I might even get a little closer to that carfree lifestyle.


----------



## JTE83 (Jan 2, 2003)

I could not live without my car or minivan. But I bike as much as possible to save gas. As of today, I saved $13.95 in gas this year by biking to places instead of using my car. I also saved on parking meter costs.

If I had to rely competely by bike for transportation I would not mind the increased food costs. I would enjoy eating more junk food / carrot cakes / candies / pecan pie / etc to fuel my biking. Yeah - why noy enjoy more food? The money saved in gas can partly go to nice food!

I also posted this thread in another forum --
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t333161.html


----------



## magicant (Apr 22, 2006)

Why even feel the need to go carfree if you have a family. How about starting off with just being a 'one-car' household? That alone would do wonders for traffic, gasoline usage and the environment. 

When I do get married, I would seriously work to be a one-car household, affordable or not. Thousands of dollars in savings every year.


----------



## KendleFox (Sep 5, 2005)

*I agree*



JTE83 said:


> I could not live without my car or minivan. But I bike as much as possible to save gas. As of today, I saved $13.95 in gas this year by biking to places instead of using my car. I also saved on parking meter costs.
> 
> If I had to rely competely by bike for transportation I would not mind the increased food costs. I would enjoy eating more junk food / carrot cakes / candies / pecan pie / etc to fuel my biking. Yeah - why noy enjoy more food? The money saved in gas can partly go to nice food!
> 
> ...


This may be the best argument yet. Not everyone can eat what they want without packing on the pounds. 

The sign says... "Will bike for junk food"


----------



## KendleFox (Sep 5, 2005)

*Nice thought...*



magicant said:


> Why even feel the need to go carfree if you have a family. How about starting off with just being a 'one-car' household? That alone would do wonders for traffic, gasoline usage and the environment.
> 
> When I do get married, I would seriously work to be a one-car household, affordable or not. Thousands of dollars in savings every year.


If only you could have imparted that wisdom to me 10 years ago, before I was married, and gas was about a 1.00 a gallon...


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

magicant said:


> Why even feel the need to go carfree if you have a family. How about starting off with just being a 'one-car' household? That alone would do wonders for traffic, gasoline usage and the environment.
> 
> When I do get married, I would seriously work to be a one-car household, affordable or not. Thousands of dollars in savings every year.


My family went with one car for about a year when I donated my previous car to charity. Eventually it became too difficult since there are six of us in my family, but I felt pretty satisfied doing it for that year.


----------



## jh_on_the_cape (Apr 14, 2004)

Mark McM said:


> It sounds like you live in suburbia. Suburbs are a 20th century construct, and only exist because of cars. Cities have existed for thousands of years, and for good reason - city dwellers use fewer resources per capita than suburbanites (especially for transportation).
> 
> As for the "You simply cannot live with an infant/toddler and no car" statement, this is clearly untrue. Plenty of city dwellers have lived for generations with no cars.
> 
> If you can not live without a car, it is simply because of where you chose to live - i.e. it is due to choices you made, not choices that were forced upon you.


I live in a rural area and thought the same as you do until I had a family. I used to live in a city and made the big choice to move out. I was unhappy living in a city and got out as often as possible and that was a lot of driving.

Almost everyone could drive less. We drive as little as possible by combining trips and biking. Our car stays parked during the weekend because we specifically chose to live where we can walk to trails/swimming/etc.

Car-free with kids is easier said than done, my friend. As you said, we all make decisions. I choose not to put a 6 month old in a bike trailer in the New England winter. I know that cars are the leading cause of death for kids, etc. That's why I would NEVER EVER use the car to get my kid to fall asleep or calm him down. lots of people do that. We drive as little as possible because I know it's dangerous and risky. But your logic is flawed. The risk to an infant below one year in a bike trailer is much greater than in the car if you are travelling the same number of miles and properly using a child safety seat. If you ever have kids, speak with a pediatrician and do some research before making the call. 

I biked to work today and the mental and physical benefits are incredible!

I wish something like zipcar existed everywhere.


----------



## ispoke (Feb 28, 2005)

*push down, go forward...*

...to borrow MB1's saying. this was an interesting read, but really, our lives are all so different, as are our priorities. do we really need to debate what no one needs, or what everyone should do? frankly i'm grateful that we're all so different, and yet we come here to celebrate what we have in common. nice to see we're all making it work (apparently), one way or the other.

so pedal when you can. and enjoy it. isn't that what it's all about?


----------



## festus (Sep 15, 2005)

*I did some simple math*

Assuming 3 bucks a gallon & 20 mpg.
bike to work	30	weeks per year
4	times per week
15	miles round trip
1800	miles per year
saves	94.7	gallons of gas
worth $284.21 

Someone threw a link in that went to an online calucalator that added 'societal' costs etc. I agree that there are some other costs to the car besides gas, but disagree with some of the costs presented on that site.

For me, I have to have a car (I live in the country and the weather is rotten for a good part of the year), so I don't save on insurance or registration. I just bought a bike, so that blow me out of the economic water (previous bike is cool old lugged steel, 6 spd with phil wood hubs - make offer). Neglecting the initial purchase, I'll probably put 80 bucks into tubes & tires, chain & cables. maybe more if I break a wheel.

As has been said, the health benefits are good, plus I feel like I'm a (small) part of the solution. Lead by example, maybe someone else will start riding.

And finally, I ride because I like it. Bikes are cool. 

Festus


----------



## venus (Apr 27, 2006)

What about if some of my bikes cost more than a car?


----------



## MikeBiker (Mar 9, 2003)

venus said:


> What about if some of my bikes cost more than a car?


Are you comparing the new costs of the bikes to a cost of a used car?


----------



## Potential Roadkill (Jan 27, 2005)

*Good point.. another is parking*



867-5309 said:


> My cost of commuting is defined via subways and even then it is cheaper to ride. I have a 9-10 mile trip each way. If I were to go public for 1 month it would be 70 bucks for a monthly pass. Bike cost is 200 for the fixie conversion.
> 
> The real issue beyond health is time. On any given day the cost of commuting vs the cost of motorized transport is minimal. Factor it out over a year or two, however, and the saving acrue.
> 
> Plus you get to eat more, I consider that a bonus!


Depending on where you live/work parking prices can factor in. When I was in DC parking was way pricey, so the bike or bus was much more fiscally responsible as well as more fun. I didn't find that I ate enough more to offset the cost of gas, and frankly I could commute the 7 miles back and forth to work in about the same amount of time given rush hour traffic. Saved on gym fees cause I was getting a good workout in every day.. Plus we were a one car family, so well it was ride or buy a second car. I think based on the difference in cost between owning two cars, the $40 I paid every year for tires was worth it.


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

ispoke said:


> ...to borrow MB1's saying. this was an interesting read, but really, our lives are all so different, as are our priorities. do we really need to debate what no one needs, or what everyone should do? frankly i'm grateful that we're all so different, and yet we come here to celebrate what we have in common. nice to see we're all making it work (apparently), one way or the other.
> 
> so pedal when you can. and enjoy it. isn't that what it's all about?


I agree. Everyone is different and in a different situation, but I like seeing all the thoughts on the subject.


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

venus said:


> What about if some of my bikes cost more than a car?


Then they must be pretty nice bikes or you are thinking about a really crummy car.


----------



## Howzitbroke (Jun 1, 2005)

Cars are the number one cause of death to those on bikes as well. The roads I need to ride on are dangerous because of the cars. I would never ride them pulling my daughter in a trailer behind me. It would almost constitute endangerment. Uness you have well organized bike lanes, or trails through your community and/or courteous drivers who don't mind you slowing them down on their way to work cycing is a caluclated risk. We have no provisions for cycist around here, so I get around on less busy roads, and less busy roads are not busy often because they do not take you where you need to go, so I am forced to ride on the busy roads at times. 

Before my daughter I commuted and rode much more, than I do today. It is simply safer to ride in a car. Sorry. More people are killed in cars because there are so many people in them at any given time. All you need to do is ask yourself would I rather be hit by a car going 40 mph on my bike or in the seat belted, crumple zoned, air bagged environment of a car?


----------



## Fred_Litespeed (Aug 6, 2004)

I was a one car family for a long time because we didn't have the money to buy a second car: the problem was I wasn't biking. (In fact, when we did finally get a second car I would say that it really transformed the way we lived in a positive way.) I have mountain biked all my life pretty much, but (_honestly_) it hardly occured to me to bike as transportation. Even when I was "forced" to ride my bike places it seemed like an "inconvenience." It is so backwards and crazy seeming now, but it keeps it in perspective for me what it can take to change peoples consciousness about this type of thing.

It wasn't until a year and a half ago that I followed my brother into road biking that things did change for me. Now I look forward to riding more and more places. I see the possibilities, and I experience the joy of gettting around on my bike. I have added a beater fixed-gear (which I love) to my stable, and I am about to build up another nicer one.

I live in "sunny Southern California", half my ride is on a bike trail and the other half on a quiet tree lined street with a bike lane, and my employer _pays me_ $1 a day to bike to work! Still, I am only commuting to work by bike about 2x per week.

I feel that I am still in a process of transformation. All this discussion really makes me _want _to ride my bike more and more -- it is great. But I will also say that what most influences me are those of you who speak about the joy of biking. There is nothing rigid in that approach, as opposed to the approach that biking is "good" and cars are "bad." I just want myself and others to experience the joy of biking. For me biking is not a political statement or something that I need to support my sense of self. I think it is perfectly fine (for myself or others) to use a car for transportation. Living car free is a fascinating idea, and seems like a great experiment in living. But also, just riding a bike anywhere at all is a great experiment in living. I think it is great to experiment in this way and because of my own experience I trust that some people can change slowly, particularly with encouragement to experiment when they see things that bring joy to others. People need to find out for themselves.

But to tie this in to the OP. I haven't done the math on my commute, but I would still be going in the direction I am going without regard to finances. Still, I think that biking has to edge out driving cost-wise. At least for now, I still have a few extra calories to burn anyway...


----------



## Fred_Litespeed (Aug 6, 2004)

I have to qualify that last statement. The cost of biking to work and _necessary _parts and repairs definitely beats driving. But the $ I spend on my _hobby _of biking and bicycles seems to be going up. So I guess the equation is becoming that I am getting more out of the money I am already spending if ride my bike instead of drive.


----------



## thbirks (Aug 6, 2002)

FrontRanger Mind if I ask what your new profession is? As a freelance photographer I find it impossible to be without a car. No client (of mine) is going to hire me to shoot an event in the mountains if I have no reliable transport there. Sure I could rent a car for those occasions but that is not "car free".
I really think the lifestyle you have chosen is commendable. I think we can all take something away from your example. Since I am in Denver (burbs) we should ride sometime. I might even get a little closer to that carfree lifestyle.[/QUOTE said:


> Currently I work as a bike mechanic. I wouldn't consider it a career but it works for now. My brother who wrote the article i linked to works as a freelance copywriter. I have friends who own cars and only use them for road trips, skiing, mountainbiking or other occasional use. It seems like a large expense for such little use and I wonder if renting a car would be cheaper in the long run.
> 
> I'd love to meet up for a ride sometime. I'm attempting to ride as much of the frontrange singletrack as possible. I often use RTD to get out to the trails. My days off are Tuesday and Wednesday and I can ride early Sunday before I go to work. Drop me a PM if it sounds like that will work for you.


----------



## nate (Jun 20, 2004)

thbirks said:


> My brother who wrote the article i linked to works as a freelance copywriter. I have friends who own cars and only use them for road trips, skiing, mountainbiking or other occasional use. It seems like a large expense for such little use and I wonder if renting a car would be cheaper in the long run.


In a few cities, there is Zipcar, sort of like rental with a twist. I see quite a few around my area and it is a lot simpler to reserve a Zipcar and pick it up than a rental from what I understand. Easy availability of cars probably depends a lot on where you live, but I bet they're very convenient in the cities where they have service. It doesn't look like they cover a lot of cities yet, though.


----------



## wsexson (Jan 19, 2002)

Assuming 3 bucks a gallon & 15 mpg.
bike to work	50	weeks per year
5	times per week
35	miles round trip
8750	miles per year
saves	583.3	gallons of gas
worth $1750.00 

plus maintenance, tags, insurance and all of a sudden you are talking about real money


----------



## Steel_SSer (Jan 13, 2006)

I teach high school students - it's my job & I love it.

One of the things I try to help them understand is the value of money. I agree up fron there are some holes in the following two charts, but I use this demonstration to help them understand the true cost of car ownership.

I tell them a zillion times that if their income tax rate is 25%, they have to earn $1.33 for every dollar that's in their pocket. Some of them understand, some are totally clueless. (sigh)

Granted, if they keep the car another five years, or purchase a good used car, their cost per mile will go down considerably.


----------



## Folsom_Blues (Apr 10, 2004)

*Let's be honest.*

Most of us could ride for a LOT less money than we currently do. I have friends that commute via $250 hybrid bikes. Do I need carbon fiber seat stays and fork for my comute? Heck no! But I like it and it works for me. 

Biking is definitely cheaper if you choose to make it. Most of us are addicts.


----------



## KendleFox (Sep 5, 2005)

*I agree*



Folsom_Blues said:


> Most of us could ride for a LOT less money than we currently do. I have friends that commute via $250 hybrid bikes. Do I need carbon fiber seat stays and fork for my comute? Heck no! But I like it and it works for me.
> 
> Biking is definitely cheaper if you choose to make it. Most of us are addicts.


It's our standard of living on the bike or car, which plays the biggest factor in this cost debate.

I wont be caught dead riding Wallmart tires on my road bike. My vanity wont let me.


----------

