# Kinlin XR-200 vs. Mavic Open Pro



## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

I have a good solid 1560g xr-270 based wheelset already, but I'd like to build the lightest set I can and still enjoy riding without too much flex under my 190 lbs. It would make the Ti ride dive under the 16 lbs psychological barrier.

I'm thinking of using KinLin XR-200 with White Industries hubs (I really like the Ti freehub)

Front wheel would be 612 g (24 x DT SuperComp spokes)

Rear wheel would be 835 g (32 x DT SuperComp NDS / DT Comp + brass nipples on DS)

I'll use SuperComps because they should be a bit stiffer than revos or aerolites.


I've ridden a pair of 32's Open Pros/DT Comp for many years, so I know how they feel, but how would the XR-200 compare with the OP's using the exact same spoke count and gauge ? I know there are no 24s OP's but let's pretend there would be.

Thanks


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

*OP's*



boisvertdom said:


> I have a good solid 1560g xr-270 based wheelset already, but I'd like to build the lightest set I can and still enjoy riding without too much flex under my 190 lbs. It would make the Ti ride dive under the 16 lbs psychological barrier.
> 
> I'm thinking of using KinLin XR-200 with White Industries hubs (I really like the Ti freehub)
> 
> ...


why not OP's and 28 spokes of Aerolite DT's on the same hubs.......might come out lighter and stiffer:idea:


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

I've read on a wheel builder's site (fairwheel) that they recommend 190 as a max rider weight for those kinlins. Probably not such a good idea for you.
Dura Ace C24's might be a decent option for you. Competative in price compared to what you're looking at here if you're willing to use one of the UK internet sellers.

How do you like the XR-270s?


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## ergott (Feb 26, 2006)

Perhaps keep your XR-270 rear wheel and go with the 24 spoke XR-200 for the front wheel.

-Eric


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

FrenchNago said:


> why not OP's and 28 spokes of Aerolite DT's on the same hubs.......might come out lighter and stiffer:idea:


Because the aim for this build is low weight and OP's are 30-40 grams heavier than XR-200 plus they don't make them 24 drilled.

About the stiffness, that's what I want to know. How less stiff are the xr-200 compared to the OP's ? (If they actually are).


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

The stiffness should be very similar. 

If light weight is your goal, I'd go with CX-Rays or similar (and get better aero also)... light rims should have light spokes. Maybe use heavier spokes on the DS rear. 24f and 32r sounds good. Could also use the Stan's 340 for about $100 more, and ~60g weight savings.


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> I've read on a wheel builder's site (fairwheel) that they recommend 190 as a max rider weight for those kinlins. Probably not such a good idea for you.
> Dura Ace C24's might be a decent option for you. Competative in price compared to what you're looking at here if you're willing to use one of the UK internet sellers.
> 
> How do you like the XR-270s?



The xr-270 set is a 2nd life given to a pair of Ultegra hubs (to which were laced worn OP's) mounted with DT AeroSpeed that I had at bargain price. 32x3 f & r with brass nipples. It comes at 1850 grams. I haven't ridden much on them b/c winter came sooner than foreseen. 

But I think the build might be a bit overkill. Front spokes are 100-105 kgf and rear DS 115-120. Not sure how comfortable they'll feel on bad roads, but I know I won't have to true them every week.

As for the DA CL24, I don't know, I wanted to build the wheels myself. Shimano claims 1386 g for the CL24's, which is 7 grams less than a pair of WI 16/20 + xr200's + DT comp/supercomp using alloy nipples. The Shimano rim might be a bit wider than the kinlin, but I don't think with the CL24 I'm looking at a sturdier wheelset than the one I'm proposing in my 1st post (though the DA hubs are superb).


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

Another idea 

drop the kinlins.......not that great anyway:

build with DT RR415 and DT aero light+ your hubs........super light fast accelerating wheels for time trial and mountain..........but single eyelets demand lots of care

however no rims with the 24 spoke pattern, only 28 as the open pro's, but that would be wiser considering your weight


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## deadleg (Jan 26, 2005)

Consider velocity A23 rims. Really nice.


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

I built a set of 32 hole Stan's Alpha 340 rims laced 3x to campy record hubs with CXrays. I even used brass nipples for the drive side rear. Total weight was ~1380. I raced them for a season of CX and they are as good as the day I built them. Highly recommended. 

They also come in 28, 24, 20 and I beleive 18 hole. A 24 front and 28 rear would be more than stiff and strong enough.


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

strathconaman said:


> I built a set of 32 hole Stan's Alpha 340 rims laced 3x to campy record hubs with CXrays. I even used brass nipples for the drive side rear. Total weight was ~1380. I raced them for a season of CX and they are as good as the day I built them. Highly recommended.
> 
> They also come in 28, 24, 20 and I beleive 18 hole. A 24 front and 28 rear would be more than stiff and strong enough.



A 360g rear rim almost sounds too good to be true. How much do you weigh ? I think I'd keep 32r spokes (DT comp DS) and maybe even 28f, and still be just under 1400g.

How can that rim be so strong ? Are they known for developing cracks around the spoke holes ? I'd like the set to last more than 6 months ...


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

ergott said:


> Perhaps keep your XR-270 rear wheel and go with the 24 spoke XR-200 for the front wheel.
> 
> -Eric


With an xr270 and 32s rear wheel, do you think I can dare cx-rays on the DS ?


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

You'd be perfectly fine with cx rays on a 32 spoke wheel.. its that xr200 you should worry about, thats getting unrealistic.


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## strathconaman (Jul 3, 2003)

boisvertdom said:


> How can that rim be so strong ? Are they known for developing cracks around the spoke holes ? I'd like the set to last more than 6 months ...


The 340's aren't known for anything except being light. They are too new to have a long term record. But just because they don't have eyelets doesn't mean it will crack. The velocity dyad is one of the strongest rims out there, and it doesn't have eyelets. 

Stan has been making mountain bike rims in 26 and 29 for years, and well known for making a tough rim.


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

TomH said:


> You'd be perfectly fine with cx rays on a 32 spoke wheel.. its that xr200 you should worry about, thats getting unrealistic.


But 32 (with possibly cx-rays if not aerospeed) laced to ZTR 340 would be ok ?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Karma*



boisvertdom said:


> A 360g rear rim almost sounds too good to be true. How can that rim be so strong ? Are they known for developing cracks around the spoke holes ? I'd like the set to last more than 6 months ...


Every couple of years someone comes out with a clincher rim under 400 gm claiming that it is durable. The rim gains a strong and passionate following. Multiple testimonials are offered praising the quality and long life. A few months or a year goes by and the web is saturated with reports of cracks and other failures. The passionate are not heard from. Then we wait for the next breakthrough rim.

The sad facts are that given the strength of aluminum alloys, it is essentially impossible to build a durable clincher rim under 400-420 gms.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

XR-200s are durable, even for guys @ 180+ pounds. I'm 185 and have ridden XR-200s built with CXRays and WI hubs for 2.5 years. One broken front spoke and one destroyed rear hoop due to an encounter with a large stick...not the rim's fault...
These have been the Roubaix wheels and have served duty as my cross race wheels for two seasons.
The set is built 32h/3x with alu nips and they have been rock solid. 

Built properly, by someone who know WTF they are doing is key!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

I've had good luck with XR200s also (many sets on other people's bikes), and they've been out long enough to tell. There are however a lot of *heavy* rims that crack due to a poor design and/or alloy used. 

If the Stan's rims show that they can last for 20k miles then we will have a winner... but it will take a couple years before there are many people with that kind of mileage. If they fail after 3k miles we will know a lot sooner...


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

My next set of wheels will have 14-15 for pulling ds and either rev or aerolite everywhere else. I've had bad luck with supercomps breaking right above the nipple and a guy on mtbr says he sees the supercomps fail at a rate much higher than other spokes. 

I wish mavic would make the op in a 24 hole. If you are building these yourself, live on the edge and use the A23 and alloy nipples. Veloplugs are a great alternative to rim tape, they're lighter and you can replace a broken nipple in a heartbeat with them. If you have problems with alloy nips, you can replace them easy enough with brass, but I'll bet you won't have a problem. 

The alchemy elf front hub has super wide flanges , so I think you could easily get away with a 24 hole front. 

Have fun, take your time, and try to build up the perfect wheel.


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

Hmm .. That last post on the A23's made me do a little search. Trying out the 23mm rim with 23 tires is very tempting, maybe it would eliminate a part of the noodly feeling since the tire would sit better within the sidewalls.

The question remains, at 190 lbs, 28 or 32 for the rear with A23's ? AeroSpeed DS or cx-rays on both sides ?

Thanks to everybody for your insights.


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

boisvertdom said:


> Hmm .. That last post on the A23's made me do a little search. Trying out the 23mm rim with 23 tires is very tempting, maybe it would eliminate a part of the noodly feeling since the tire would sit better within the sidewalls.
> 
> The question remains, at 190 lbs, 28 or 32 for the rear with A23's ? AeroSpeed DS or cx-rays on both sides ?
> 
> Thanks to everybody for your insights.


Either way would be fine. For the sake of longevity, I'd say go 32h/3x with CX-Rays all the way around. You aren't adding much weight at all by adding those 4 spokes and nips.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

The A23 isn't that stiff because it's shallow, so 32 would be a safer bet.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

im 205lbs.. went for a ride to see how much I could flex a 24 spoke, 2 cross wheel, built around a not-that-wide bitex hub. Sapim race spokes.

With the brakes adjusted tight, way tighter than Id ever really want to ride with.. I can get the wheel to flex juuuuust enough to get some brake rub when standing and mashing with a pretty forward bias. When adjusted to a realistic distance, they feel great. 

Its not the stiffest thing in the world, but its not a noodle. Either way, a 23mm wide rim at 440g, something has to give (which makes me really question stans 350g rim.. )


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

Salut Dom.
Kinlin XR 200 front 28 3x with Alchemy E.L.F.
Mavic OP 32 3x rear with the White Ind. hub.

DT aero or Sapim? Cheapest.

Going under 1500? Possible but remember:

Light, durable, inexpensive: pick two. For what I remember, you never destroyed the Mavic rims, you went THROUGH them... You wore them out... 

See you soon.

S.LAM.


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## teleguy57 (Apr 23, 2006)

*what about the C-4 V22?*

Heavier at 465g listed wt, but has a wider (22mm) profile. Or are we now having a different conversation since we're in the 400g+ range vs light weight clincher rims? :blush2:


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## tantra (Jan 8, 2008)

I weigh 180 lbs in my shorts and am riding Kinlin XR200's with ExtraLite hubs built by Zen Cyclery. For added strength I went with 24-spokes (1-cross) in front and 32-spokes (2-cross) in back (Sapin CXrays). The wheels weigh 1280g. No complaints at all with the rims. If I could do it again I would probably go with Alchemy Elf and ORC hubs. It would increase the weight, but I've heard so many good things about those hubs. The White hubs are beautiful but even heavier.


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

TomH said:


> im 205lbs.. went for a ride to see how much I could flex a 24 spoke, 2 cross wheel, built around a not-that-wide bitex hub. Sapim race spokes.
> 
> With the brakes adjusted tight, way tighter than Id ever really want to ride with.. I can get the wheel to flex juuuuust enough to get some brake rub when standing and mashing with a pretty forward bias. When adjusted to a realistic distance, they feel great.
> 
> Its not the stiffest thing in the world, but its not a noodle. Either way, a 23mm wide rim at 440g, something has to give (which makes me really question stans 350g rim.. )



So 24x2 with Sapim Race on both DS and NDS ?

I was thinking a 32 rear with cx-rays x2 NDS and Aerospeed x3 DS (which is basically like a bladed dt comp) would feel solid. With 24x1 cx-rays for the front. 

That would add up to just a little over 1500 g, and daring cx-rays on nds would take away another 24 g.

My other (and a bit lighter) option right now is xr200 24x1 cx-rays front / xr200 32s Aerospeed NDSx2 + DSx3 => 1451 g. 

I really don't know which one to pick, ppl seem happy with both their xr200's and A23's.

I think I'm gonna try the xr200 and if I don't like them, I'll just order the A23 rims and spokes to build with the very same 24/32 WI hubs. 

But Tristan seems to enjoy his A23's so much ... 

"I was riding the wide Velocity A23 wheels with DT Swiss hubs – these aren’t as fast as carbon race wheels but the road-holding and amazing feel of these wheels has made them my favorites to ride."


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

My 32h/3x wheels built on WI hubs and CXRays weigh 1420. Not featherweight, but damn light for wheels you can beat on...


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

*Final setup decision*

Trying the A23's was very tempting, but I would have had to order the complete set of spokes. Building the xr200 set will allow me to use leftover (but new) spokes for the rear wheel, I'll just need to order the cx-rays for the front wheel.

So I think I'm going for the following :

*front * - 620 g
white ind. H2
xr-200 28h
cx-rays cross-1
alloy nipples

*rear* - 851 g
white ind. H3
xr-200 32s
DT Aerospeed DS cross-3 / NDS cross-2
brass nipples on DS

Total weight: 1471 grams, which sounds good to me.

How don't see how the xr200 could be (noticeably) less stiff than an Open Pro or Excellight in this setup (plus the xr200's have a slightly higher profile than the other 2, which should help stiffness if anything), but I'm putting Aerospeeds on both sides for the rear wheel. At 6 grams per spoke, they should be stiffer than the cx-rays, therefore stretch less and make a stiffer rear wheel.

Should I go cross-2 for the front wheel ?

At 190 lbs, if anyone thinks I'm going to kill myself riding these, please say so before Monday.

Thanks and happy new year everyone !


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

:mad2: 

I must be in my pms or something ... can't decide.

I thought of a better build (I think) for the same weight:

*front *- 600 g
white ind. H2
*xr-200 24h*
cx-rays cross-2
alloy nipples

*rear *- 851 g
white ind. H3
*xr-270 28h*
DT Aerospeed DS cross-3 / cx-rays NDS cross-3
brass nipples on DS

Total weight: 1468 grams

Anyone thinks I'll need dental surgery if I go with 24h xr200 / cx-rays in the front ?  

Thanks.


*EDIT : *rear wheel would be 868, not 851


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

boisvertdom said:


> :mad2:
> 
> I must be in my pms or something ... can't decide.
> 
> ...


great output after everybody gave you a different e-pinion


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## backinthesaddle (Nov 22, 2006)

boisvertdom said:


> :mad2:
> 
> I must be in my pms or something ... can't decide.
> 
> ...


I'd go 28 in the front, for safety and longevity sake...


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## Pegorider (Nov 2, 2008)

*Don't worry*

I have a fantastic pair of Ligero Wheels built on Kinlin rims.

XR-200, 20 cx-rays in the front,
XR-270, 24 cx-rays in the rear.

Built on Troy's hubs (which are not light,) the whole build (including velo-plugs) weighs 
1399 gms.

Absolutely perfect after1500 miles.

My weight is 175#

Your build should be plenty strong


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## Wilz (Jan 8, 2011)

Have a look at Pr-lite website ,The wheels are excellent value for the spec


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

*Follow-up*

double post


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## boisvertdom (Dec 1, 2009)

*Follow-up*

I just wanted to let everybody know that, after having built the wheels and logging in a few rides on them, I'm really happy with the result.

Set was built with WI H2/H3 hubs, Kinlin xr-200 rims, cross-2 cx-rays for front & NDS, cross-3 DT Aerospeed on DS.

Front wheel ends up at 607 grams (28 spokes)
Rear at 810 grams (32 spokes)

I really took my time to get them perfect on the parktool TS2.2, I have less than a notch of standard deviation in the spoke tension on the parktool tensionmeter (avg. 100 kgf front, 110 rear) and the lateral and radial deflection is about 0.1 mm.

Surely due to their weight, the wheels are very responsive. No noticeable flex in the rear wheel while standing up in a climb. These hubs spin incredibly smoothly and they feel rock solid. 

Only downside would be the aerodynamics aspect. XR-200's are far from being aero (can't have everything) and 28+32 spokes whipping the air tend to create a bigger drag than 20+24. But I think it's mostly the rims that makes it difficult to cruise at higher speeds. I have another set built with xr-270 20f/24r and bladed spokes, and they feel faster on flat road.

The goal was to build a reliable set of classic-type yet light wheels for my 190 lbs with something else than open pros, and I think it was achieved.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

pics or else........


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

kind of curious on the long term results for this build. that's why i ressurected this tread. 

boisevertdom: 
so how have the wheels performed? still riding them? any issues?


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