# which stem will give me more height 82 or 84 degrees



## bigwaves (Feb 2, 2003)

I am trying to get a little more rise in a stem and was wondering which stem will give me more height 82 or 84 degrees?


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## Juanmoretime (Nov 24, 2001)

84, the longer the stem the higher the rise will be over the 82.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*About 4mm more...*

height will be produced with an 84 degree, with an average 110mm length. Shorter stem will be a bit less and longer ones a bit more. This assumes the same steeering tube clamp height.


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## dougn (Jun 9, 2004)

82 degree will provide the most height. the greater deviation from 90 degrees......


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*wrong...*



dougn said:


> 82 degree will provide the most height. the greater deviation from 90 degrees......


82 degres is a minus 8 from 90 and and 84 is a minus 6. Minus 6 is HIGHER than a minus 8. A 90 degree is also know as a zero degree and it's higher still.


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## CNY rider (Feb 9, 2005)

Remember also that many if not most road stems can be flipped and put on the bike facing either way........


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## vitdoc (Nov 22, 2004)

*more height with 82*

If the stem is tilted up you get 8 degrees of elevation with an 82 vs 6 degrees with an 84. If the stem is tilted down everything is reversed. Since most stems are tilted up unless one wants to really be bent down the 82 degree will be very slightly higher than the 84. (but not by much).


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*also wrong...*

You guys need to get your terminology straight. If you want to compare flipped stems, then use the correct angle. A flipped 82 is a 98 and a flipped 84 is a 96. The original post asked about an 82 and an 84. Most stems are NOT flipped up. A flipped stem would be extreme rarity on any real race bike. 

If you want to be clear when speaking of stem angles, use one of the common standards, as above or specify plus or minus from 90 degrees. MTB guys seem to favor the + or -6 degree rather than 96 or 84 (respectively).


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*What's a good way to convert these numbers to degrees?*

I am use to using the +/- degrees in looking for stem compared to the 84 or 96 numbers system.

Is there any formula to use for converting numbers to degrees and degrees to numbers?

Like on the roadie I use a -8º stem and on the MTB I use either +6º most of the time and -6º if I am racing or depending on the frame I am riding.

Thanks!


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*just add 90..*

If you have a -6 stem, adding 90 to it yields 84, which is the same thing. Works for any plus or minus angle.


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## dougn (Jun 9, 2004)

C-40 said:


> You guys need to get your terminology straight. If you want to compare flipped stems, then use the correct angle. A flipped 82 is a 98 and a flipped 84 is a 96. The original post asked about an 82 and an 84. Most stems are NOT flipped up. A flipped stem would be extreme rarity on any real race bike.
> 
> first off i suspect you knew what the person meant
> who are you or anyone else to define a convention...and a poor one at that
> ...


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*I knew what the poster meant...*



dougn said:


> C-40 said:
> 
> 
> > You guys need to get your terminology straight. If you want to compare flipped stems, then use the correct angle. A flipped 82 is a 98 and a flipped 84 is a 96. The original post asked about an 82 and an 84. Most stems are NOT flipped up. A flipped stem would be extreme rarity on any real race bike.
> ...


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

C-40 said:


> I assumed the poster knew the standard nomenclature, and answered correctly. You're the one who's confused. I didn't make up the standard, the manufacturers did. All seem to go by this standard, where the angle is measured counterclockwise using either the steering tube centerline as the reference line, or a line perpendicular to the steering tube. The high rise angle would be 98 degree or +8, not 82.
> 
> Here's the Deda Newton drawing:


And yet they don't seem to refer to it as a 98, nor do they have a separate catalog listing for a 98. 

The "98" nomenclature necessary for your argument is anything but a standard, though some few folks do refer to it in that manner. For every one that does call it a 98, "82 with reverse assembly" or similar would be used by a few thousand, including Deda. 

http://www.dedaelementi.com/dettaglio.asp?articolo=121

The correct answer (already given by the folks that "don't know their nomenclature") is that the 82 gives more height if flipped up/reversed, the 84 if flipped down. That answers the question without making any assumptions as to the OP's intent WRT the ambiguity. It also avoids looking like a putz for arguing a point that your own reference refutes.

At least we're past the quill-stem days, where the angle was often listed as rise from horizontal, assuming a 'standard' HTA, even though each manufacturer had a different idea of 'standard.' For example, a stem that today we would call a -17 or a 73 would be called a 0 degree rise, give or take a degree. This is the reason for the current "degrees from parallel to steerer" (eg 84 degrees) road standard. Back when the transition to threadless was happening, there was considerable confusion as to whether "6 degree stem" meant six degrees off of horizontal or off of the steerer, especially since the standards converge at about that point. Since MTB's were usually pointed up (and there was more MTB threadless than road threadless at the time) the chances for confusion were plentiful. Changing to the new nomenclature resolved one ambiguity, but created another. Fortunately, this one can be worked out independently, while the other could not.


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## divve (May 3, 2002)

dougn said:


> first off i suspect you knew what the person meant
> who are you or anyone else to define a convention...and a poor one at that
> most stems are flipped up
> mine is flipped up and i have a 4.5 inch drop to my handle bars. it all depends on specific frame size, and set-up.


So....when people talk about a 73 deg. seat tube it may also be 107 deg. because you ride your bike backward?


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## LBK (Apr 18, 2006)

danl1 said:


> And yet they don't seem to refer to it as a 98, nor do they have a separate catalog listing for a 98.
> 
> The "98" nomenclature necessary for your argument is anything but a standard, though some few folks do refer to it in that manner. For every one that does call it a 98, "82 with reverse assembly" or similar would be used by a few thousand, including Deda.
> 
> ...


Sorry dude, C-40 is correct on this one. It's either 82 or 98.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*what crap..*

The use of 84/96 or 82/98 makes perfect sense and it's perfectly clear. Both angles use the same reference line and direction for the angle measurement. The original poster said nothing about the stem being flipped or being installed in a "reverse" direction. If he had, then the answer would obviously have been just the opposite.

The assumption that the original poster wanted to compare flipped or reversed stems makes no sense at all. The OP says NOTHING about flipping or reversing, so you are just dead wrong. The more of this baloney you post, the lower your credibilty.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

LBK said:


> Sorry dude, C-40 is correct on this one. It's either 82 or 98.


I've quoted deda as "86 reversed" previously.

Here's FSA at +-6: http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=43&pid=88

Bontrager: http://www.bontrager.com/Road/Components/Stems/5745.php

Specialized: http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=14919

Ritchey: http://ritcheylogic.com/web/Ritchey...roduct/roadcomp/stems/RoadStems_WCS4Axis.html

Salsa: (Here's one for you guys)
http://www.salsacycles.com/comps_stems.html

Syntace:
http://www.syntace.com/index.cfm?pid=3&pk=379

Easton:
http://www.eastonbike.com/PRODUCTS/STEMS/stem_road_ec70_'06.html

Oval Concepts:
http://www.ovalconcepts.com/productsDetails.php?idProdotti=43&idProd1=2

I've found one so far that lists a number greater than 90deg. One for ten doesn't make a standard.


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## dougn (Jun 9, 2004)

actually frame angles do seem to follow convention..... but not completely


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## Pepe (Jun 24, 2004)

C-40 said:


> height will be produced with an 84 degree, with an average 110mm length. Shorter stem will be a bit less and longer ones a bit more. This assumes the same steeering tube clamp height.


Trigonometry doesn't Lie. I built a spreadsheet last year because I was changing out stems and wanted to compute the differential in height with various alternatives, and solved for rise using high school trig. I plugged in an 11cm stem on a 73 degree head tube and it produces .38cm (about 4mm) more height with an 84 vs. an 82. If you go to a 14mm, it's about 5mm more rise. C-40 is right, and I have the math to prove it.


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## dougn (Jun 9, 2004)

let's face it...I'm smarter than all of you ...except those of you that agree with me.


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## LBK (Apr 18, 2006)

dougn said:


> let's face it...I'm smarter than all of you ...except those of you that agree with me.


  

Isn't it too early to be drinking?


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## WheresWaldo (Nov 29, 2005)

Would this help?


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## SDizzle (May 1, 2004)

See this thread:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=60279

There's a link to an Excel-based stem calculator there, and I'm _still_ thankful to whoever posted it! Good luck.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

C-40 said:


> The use of 84/96 or 82/98 makes perfect sense and it's perfectly clear. Both angles use the same reference line and direction for the angle measurement. The original poster said nothing about the stem being flipped or being installed in a "reverse" direction. If he had, then the answer would obviously have been just the opposite.
> 
> The assumption that the original poster wanted to compare flipped or reversed stems makes no sense at all. The OP says NOTHING about flipping or reversing, so you are just dead wrong. The more of this baloney you post, the lower your credibilty.


I agree that it makes perfect sense and is perfectly clear - to you. It arguably ought to be the way we commonly talk about this stuff, but it isn't. There's a reason it isn't, too - but more on that in a minute.

It's not a 'standard', and it's fairly obvious that the people who make the things (and know a bunch more than either of us about the subject) don't have a standard nomenclature, much less the one you suggest. In the lack of a standard, calling someone 'dead wrong', 'stupid', 'a dummy', or 'confused' because he happens not to follow your personal usage is - is -- I'm sorry, the list of appropriate perjoratives is simply too long here, but I'm thinking "rubber, glue". 

No assumption was made (on my part) that the OP wanted to compare only flipped stems, or only downangle stems - the assumption was that he wanted information and options, not self-righteous (and incorrect) notions of the 'right' direction to install a stem, or the 'standard' (and anything but) manner of speech regarding such things. Considering that additional height was the stated goal, flipping a stem is a natural part of the conversation, and I see nothing in the post that suggests that only downangles were under consideration. 

OTOH, If your assumption were correct, the question could not exist. The question only makes sense in the context of directional ambiguity, so your assumption (that only downangles were on-topic) seems most questionable.

Another poster mentioned that most stems are flipped up, and that's as parochial an assumption as yours. To his credit, he had the grace to not call you names because you happened to disagree with him.

I'd love to see the email you are crafting to Deda, FSA, et al, telling them that they're all 'dead wrong', 'confused',' have their nomenclature wrong', and so on. If I'm wrong, at least I'm in good company. There is no 'right' direction to install a stem, save those relatively few that are one-sided, and as yet no 'right' way to speak of the angles. Stems are designed to be flippable to help compensate for some of the adjustability lost in the move away from quill stems. Using angles > 90 to describe a flipped stem creates the same (though logically reversed) ambiguity when discussing a one-way stem that happens to have an upangle. Perhaps that's why the manufacturers don't seem to use your self-assigned 'standard.' 

MTB usage of +/-6 (and using only the + or - when appropriate for one-way conversation) probably makes the most sense. Of course, that would create confusion for those around when minor angles meant MTB, major angles meant road, and flippability was a visible attribute. It'd probably be convenient for you and me if everyone spoke English, too - but I'm not about to call folks 'dead wrong' because they happen to speak French.

I have different names for them.


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## dougn (Jun 9, 2004)

danl1 said:


> Another poster mentioned that most stems are flipped up, and that's as parochial an assumption as yours. To his credit, he had the grace to not call you names because you happened to disagree with him.


not really an assumption...more of an observation. i don't like the looks of a flipped up stem...maybe I just notice more of them. I definately could be wrong.


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