# Did I destroy my frame?? Pressing in a PF30 bb and POP...



## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

2013 Ridley Noah Pro. ROTOR PF4630 bb. FSA SLK-light cranks.

I applied _green_ Loctite to the inside of the BB shell, and pressed in the non-drive side cup first. As I got tighter, I heard an incredibly loud pop. The cup was maybe half way in. I stopped, looked at the frame all over, and didn’t find a single crack. I did notice that the cup was going in ever-so-slightly crooked. I made some adjustments, and continued to press. More loud pops - at least another 7 or 8 of them - and more faint crackling noises as the cups were pressed in. But not a scratch or crack on the frame. Nothing. When the cup was in all the way, it was still just a touch crooked around the 12 o’clock position (i.e. it wasn’t flush with the frame there), but it was completely flush elsewhere. I chalked it up to the BB shell simply not being faced.

I then put in the drive side cup, also with green Loctite. Except I did it faster, and got fewer popping sounds, and they were slightly less loud. 

My rationale for continuing was this: if the very first pop was the frame cracking, then it was toast anyway and I should just go ahead and finish the process and see what happened.

So.....I’m inclined to think - or at least I’d _like _to think - that those popping noises were the green Loctite setting up as I was pressing the cups in, and that the sheer intensity of those popping sounds were simply due to resonation throughout the frame. 

I tried to install the FSA cranks into the ROTOR bb, and it was a very tight fit. Had to grease the spindle to get it through, and even then, I had to use a rubber mallet to seat it in all the way (which is not uncommon). But it went in. The problem is that the crank does not spin freely. There is a lot of resistance - if I spin the crank with my finger, it will go around once before stopping. But no grinding noises in the bb.

My concerns are the following:

1. The cups are misaligned, and that’s why there’s so much resistance.

2. The frame is indeed damaged, and I just can’t see it on the outside. But lord knows, those pops were impressively loud - to the point I put on safety glasses while pressing the cups in - and if the frame was cracked, it’d be cracked big enough to see on the outside.


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## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

That sucks, dude. I'll do pretty much all of my work on my own bike except for bbs. All this new-fangled crap drives me insane and my fears of something like the above steer me clear of messing with it.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

I'd say your concerns are valid. How many cups have you pressed in prior to this? What were you using for the installation?


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

mikerp said:


> I'd say your concerns are valid. How many cups have you pressed in prior to this? What were you using for the installation?


I had pressed in four or five headsets. Never had to press in a bb before, much less on a CF frame.

I was using a Park Tools headset press (i.e. the large one), which I know is perfectly acceptable for pressing in a BB.

My problem is that, even if the frame wasn’t cracked in the process, common friggin’ sense would tell anyone that the bottom bracket shell is under a hell of a lot of stress, and that riding on it will be too much for it.

Whoever came up with this idiotic system should be caned. They tried to re-design the wheel, and came up with a square.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

They hardly ever start out perfectly straight, and sometimes make noise. If you don't see any damage at this point I seriously doubt you'll have any problems riding it. Is is smooth when you spin it? If so, you're good. If it has spots w/ more resistance than others one or both of your cups aren't properly aligned. If it's smooth but only spins once, don't worry about it...it's new bearings.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> They hardly ever start out perfectly straight, and sometimes make noise. If you don't see any damage at this point I seriously doubt you'll have any problems riding it. Is is smooth when you spin it? If so, you're good. If it has spots w/ more resistance than others one or both of your cups aren't properly aligned. If it's smooth but only spins once, don't worry about it...it's new bearings.




Cxwrench

When you say they often start out making noise? What kind of noise? And when? As you press them in?

I removed the cranks and checked the bearings by hand. Both of the inner races were difficult to turn with my finger. I pressed the cups in a touch more, and the drive side cup became flush with the frame. Lo- and behold, the inner race of that bearing was much easier to turn with my finger.

I couldn’t seem to get the non-drive side cup to become flush with the frame (not without squeezing the press to the point I’d fear for my life). And the non-drive-side bearing continues to be very difficult to turn with my finger.

Do you still think it’s an issue of new bearings? Personally, I think it’s an issue of the non-drive-side cup being in slightly crooked, and this is squeezing the bearing in an unnatural way.

Dammit, I cannot overstate my absolute disgust with this pressfit and bb30 nonsense.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

The only solution that I can see is to take it in to the shop and have them disassemble, inspect and go from there. Your situation is not a place I would want to go for sure. Luckily my bottom bracket just threads on so I will not have to experience that one. Good luck and hopefully your super frame is not cracked.


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## The_Apprentice (Jun 15, 2014)

There are several possible Reasons for the loud popping noises.
But in my experience, it could be 1 of 3 things.

1. The Cups are misaligned, and causing stress on the BB Shell (Making the Popping sound), meaning the Crankset is meeting resistance while spinning due to the misalignment.

2. The BB shell has been cracked, showing only on the inside of the Shell.

3. The BB PF Cups have been damaged while installing them into the frame. (When you adjusted the Non-Drive-side did you remove the Cup then adjust or make adjustments while in the Frame?).

I work for a LBS and have seen and expeienced the PF Cups Snap while installing them, due to Stress and personal error. It happens sometimes to be fair. But I would remove the BB and Check the components, BB Shell and Frame for any type of damage.


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## SundayNiagara (Apr 17, 2014)

Waspinator said:


> Dammit, I cannot overstate my absolute disgust with this pressfit and bb30 nonsense.


Watch for the 2015 Felt bikes. Coming in late July.


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## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

SundayNiagara said:


> Watch for the 2015 Felt bikes. Coming in late July.


You don't need to post this every time some mentions "bottom bracket." 

He's got the bike he likes and doesn't like the BB design.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

Does Ridley recommend Locktite? The manufacturer of my bike says to use plenty of grease on the bearing and seat. Won't green locktite make it hard to get the bearing out?


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## The_Apprentice (Jun 15, 2014)

Waspinator said:


> Cxwrench
> 
> When you say they often start out making noise? What kind of noise? And when? As you press them in?
> 
> ...


It would probably be a misalignment error then, if the Drive side is flush but the Non-drive side is not. It would be causing the bearing race to compress and not allow free movement of the Bearings.


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## SundayNiagara (Apr 17, 2014)

LVbob said:


> You don't need to post this every time some mentions "bottom bracket."
> 
> He's got the bike he likes and doesn't like the BB design.


Yes I do!


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## The_Apprentice (Jun 15, 2014)

Tlaloc said:


> Does Ridley recommend Locktite? The manufacturer of my bike says to use plenty of grease on the bearing and seat. Won't green locktite make it hard to get the bearing out?


It really depends on the Manufacturer of your bike. Specialized advice that you should Bond a Hollowtech II BB. I myself find that obscure, but Its what I was told by the Specialized UK office. Where as other Manufacturers most like Giant, Cervelo and Scott ask you to Lightly Grease the BB Shell.


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## Tlaloc (May 12, 2005)

Trek says to use grease. The bearing slides in easily and seats completely. Looking at the Locktite site:

Construction Adhesive and Glue Products | Loctite Adhesives

I don't see any green Locktite thread locker - just blue and red. Are you talking about thread locker or some other product?


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

I've got a Noah Pro and used a Wheels Manufacturing BB (see below). I used grease on mine and it pressed in straight and snug.
Crankset spins smooth.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

Green Loctite is for press-fit applications. It would not make a popping sound while being installed. I would be concerned on how difficult it would be to remove a PF30 BB after using Green Loctite for installation.

I'm gonna guess that the BB is all carbon and not an aluminum sleeve insert. I don't believe carbon BB's are faced and machined so the gap the OP has on the non-drive side puzzles me. It's possible the carbon BB is an insert into the monocoque area. What the OP may have been hearing with the pops was the insert breaking its bond with the rest of the area.

The only solution I see is to remove the non-drive side PF30 cup and inspect the carbon shell for cracks. Then inspect the bearing for free movement.. If the cup can removed without applying force to the inner race of the bearing, then reinstall it. If not, you'll likely damage it upon removal. In that case, purchase and install a replacement, even if you have to purchase an entire BB setup to do so.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

The info from Ridley that I received with my frame said to not use alloy bottom brackets. I ended up using an alloy BB but the Wheels Manufacturing one I used has o-rings on the cups so the cups don't actually contact the inside of the bottom bracket shell.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Tlaloc said:


> Trek says to use grease. The bearing slides in easily and seats completely. Looking at the Locktite site:
> 
> Construction Adhesive and Glue Products | Loctite Adhesives
> 
> I don't see any green Locktite thread locker - just blue and red. Are you talking about thread locker or some other product?


What does Trek have to do w/ this thread? If you have a comment that has anything at all to do w/ PF30 type bottom brackets, fine. Trek BB90 is completely different.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

Peter P. said:


> Green Loctite is for press-fit applications. It would not make a popping sound while being installed. I would be concerned on how difficult it would be to remove a PF30 BB after using Green Loctite for installation.
> 
> I'm gonna guess that the BB is all carbon and not an aluminum sleeve insert. I don't believe carbon BB's are faced and machined so the gap the OP has on the non-drive side puzzles me. It's possible the carbon BB is an insert into the monocoque area. What the OP may have been hearing with the pops was the insert breaking its bond with the rest of the area.
> 
> The only solution I see is to remove the non-drive side PF30 cup and inspect the carbon shell for cracks. Then inspect the bearing for free movement.. If the cup can removed without applying force to the inner race of the bearing, then reinstall it. If not, you'll likely damage it upon removal. In that case, purchase and install a replacement, even if you have to purchase an entire BB setup to do so.



Green loctite would make a sound if it set up as you press it in, methinks.

As for the frame, there is no carbon insert, or any sort of insert between the bottom bracket shell and bearing cups.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Waspinator said:


> Green loctite would make a sound if it set up as you press it in, methinks.
> 
> As for the frame, there is no carbon insert, or any sort of insert between the bottom bracket shell and bearing cups.


Green is wicking, and sets up in 24 hours, not within the time frame of installing a cup.


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## scooterman (Apr 15, 2006)

I've pressed in plenty of PF30's. I did press in one the other day that made the pop noises you speak of (plastic sram pf30). The bike is fine everything works no issues at all. I think the plastic shell just binds on the frame and when it lets go it makes that pop noise kind of like how an earthquake happens. Yours wont spin because it's still crooked. Knock it out and do it again.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

Why did you use green? I would think blue would be the proper choice. Green is permanent. We use it at work. The only way to degrade it is with heat. Good Luck.



Waspinator said:


> I had pressed in four or five headsets. Never had to press in a bb before, much less on a CF frame.
> 
> I was using a Park Tools headset press (i.e. the large one), which I know is perfectly acceptable for pressing in a BB.
> 
> ...


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

scooterman said:


> I've pressed in plenty of PF30's. I did press in one the other day that made the pop noises you speak of (plastic sram pf30). The bike is fine everything works no issues at all. I think the plastic shell just binds on the frame and when it lets go it makes that pop noise kind of like how an earthquake happens. Yours wont spin because it's still crooked. Knock it out and do it again.


The Rotor BB that he used is alloy, he's gonna have a hell of a time knocking it out. If that's the Loctite 609, it has 3000 psi holding power.


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## scooterman (Apr 15, 2006)

High Gear said:


> Why did you use green? I would think blue would be the proper choice. Green is permanent. We use it at work. The only way to degrade it is with heat. Good Luck.


green is for bearing retention or any other pressfit applications where you have to fill a void to glue them together. It will come out. If you used green on threads you may be in trouble there.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

If the pop happened only once throughout the installation process and the bearing cups went in very easily after that, _then _I'd be confident that the frame cracked. But that's not what happened. These loud pops happened repeatedly, each time i changed my grip on the press handles and rotated them about a quarter turn (ie after each pause in movement of the cups. We all know that carbon fiber fails catastrophically. Had the frame cracked on the first pop, I seriously doubt those pops would have continued to occur as they did because the bearing cups would have been exceedingly easy to press in. I could certainly be wrong, and that's why I appreciate all of your opinions!!


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Waspinator said:


> If the pop happened only once throughout the installation process and the bearing cups went in very easily after that, _then _I'd be confident that the frame cracked. But that's not what happened. These loud pops happened repeatedly, each time i changed my grip on the press handles and rotated them about a quarter turn (ie after each pause in movement of the cups. We all know that carbon fiber fails catastrophically. Had the frame cracked on the first pop, I seriously doubt those pops would have continued to occur as they did because the bearing cups would have been exceedingly easy to press in. I could certainly be wrong, and that's why I appreciate all of your opinions!!


Did you use Loctite 609?


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

redondoaveb said:


> Did you use Loctite 609?


I did. I can't remember where I saw it, but someone recommended using it to help the cups stay in place. Grease did not seem like a good idea, as it would promote movement of the cups within he shell and in-turn promote damage to the shell with time. I'm a heavy rider (about 225lbs) and I absolutely cannot have those bearing cups moving in the frame.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

I would expect Ridley's QA could be the issue if they undersized the shell. Typically on BB30 brackets, I grease the shell with Park's PPL-1 and they go in very easy.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Waspinator said:


> I did. I can't remember where I saw it, but someone recommended using it to help the cups stay in place. Grease did not seem like a good idea, as it would promote movement of the cups within he shell and in-turn promote damage to the shell with time. I'm a heavy rider (about 225lbs) and I absolutely cannot have those bearing cups moving in the frame.


The 609 has 3000 psi holding strength, could make it pretty tough to get the cups back out. Did you see the BB that I showed in one of earlier posts? It actually has o-rings on the cups. A little grease on them and the cups pressed right in. I've had no problems at all with that setup.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

Notvintage said:


> I would expect Ridley's QA could be the issue if they undersized the shell. Typically on BB30 brackets, I grease the shell with Park's PPL-1 and they go in very easy.


I would agree with you there. The frame isn't cheap ($1700), but it's very rough around the edges - ie paint inside the head tube (where the headset bearings sit) as well as the bb shell.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

mikerp said:


> Green is wicking, and sets up in 24 hours, not within the time frame of installing a cup.


This stuff will start setting up in around 10 minutes. We use a spray accelerator/primer that will cure within minutes. I wouldn't see how anyone would recommend for anything bike related since high heat is the only way to destroy the bond.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

scooterman said:


> green is for bearing retention or any other pressfit applications where you have to fill a void to glue them together. It will come out. If you used green on threads you may be in trouble there.


We tried breaking a bond that we used green on with a hydraulic press. It got to the point that it was becoming dangerous and had to back off.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Notvintage said:


> I would expect Ridley's QA could be the issue if they undersized the shell. Typically on BB30 brackets, I grease the shell with Park's PPL-1 and they go in very easy.


I don't believe that the shell is undersized, I think the tolerances are really tight. That's why they recommend nylon BB cups. They stated right on the literature I received with my frame to not use an alloy BB.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

redondoaveb said:


> I don't believe that the shell is undersized, I think the tolerances are really tight. That's why they recommend nylon BB cups. They stated right on the literature I received with my frame to not use an alloy BB.


Looking at the Ridley frame quality overall, I highly doubt the tolerances are "tight". Inaccurate, yes. In need of some flex from the bb bearing cups? Perhaps. 

Seems to me that Ridley is the only manufacturer utilizing the pressfit 30 standard to require that their customers use only plastic bb cups (presumably to accommodate their sloppy manufacturing). And I say they can go f*** themselves. I'm not putting plastic down there. I shouldn't have to. What's next? They ask me to secure the stem onto the carbon steerer tube with bubble gum?

Once again, I will say it: this bb30/pf30 standard is completely f***ed. If bike manufacturers have any common sense, they will promptly revert back to a threaded design, which has worked flawlessly for half a century. The current standards have been around for half a decade, and have proven themselves to be miserably problematic.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Waspinator said:


> Looking at the Ridley frame quality overall, I highly doubt the tolerances are "tight". Inaccurate, yes. In need of some flex from the bb bearing cups? Perhaps.
> 
> Seems to me that Ridley is the only manufacturer utilizing the pressfit 30 standard to require that their customers use only plastic bb cups (presumably to accommodate their sloppy manufacturing). And I say they can go f*** themselves. I'm not putting plastic down there. I shouldn't have to. What's next? They ask me to secure the stem onto the carbon steerer tube with bubble gum?
> 
> Once again, I will say it: this bb30/pf30 standard is completely f***ed. If bike manufacturers have any common sense, they will promptly revert back to a threaded design, which has worked flawlessly for half a century. The current standards have been around for half a decade, and have proven themselves to be miserably problematic.


Just a Chinese frame. I doubt that Ridley told the manufacturer to make their frames more sloppy than any other makes. I have no problem with the quality of my frame, everything went together beautifully. If you manage to get your cups out, you might take a look at the Wheels Manufacturing BB.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

High Gear said:


> We tried breaking a bond that we used green on with a hydraulic press. It got to the point that it was becoming dangerous and had to back off.


There are two types of bonds: chemical and mechanical. Chemical bonds involve chemical reactions where the adhesive attaches to the involved surfaces by chemically reacting with them. A mechanical bond simply works by filling microscopic gaps or pores on the surfaces being bonded together, thus mechanically gripping the surfaces together (like spikes on a soccer clear grips the player to the ground).

The bb shell is carbon composite. The bb cups are aluminum. Loctite may chemically react with one or the other, but I highly doubt it'll react with both. That means that one surface is not chemically bonded. Only mechanically bonded. The aluminum surface is likely not porous enough for loctite to mechanically bond to it. I don't think the bb shell is that porous either - especially for a viscous substance like loctite.

The effect of the Loctite, I think, is to form a hard layer between the BB shell and bb cups, eliminating any empty spaces and forming a more "positive seat" between the two surfaces, which helps keep the cups from moving. I really don't think it actually bonds these dissimilar materials together.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

redondoaveb said:


> Just a Chinese frame. I doubt that Ridley told the manufacturer to make their frames more sloppy than any other makes. I have no problem with the quality of my frame, everything went together beautifully. If you manage to get your cups out, you might take a look at the Wheels Manufacturing BB.


Whats special about the Wheels Mfg bottom bracket?


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

Waspinator said:


> Whats special about the Wheels Mfg bottom bracket?


It has rubber o-rings on the cups. The alloy cups are slightly undersized and the 0-rings give it the tight seal. I think Wheels Manufacturing figured out that not all shells have the same tolerances and designed it for that purpose. I posted a picture earlier.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

High Gear said:


> We tried breaking a bond that we used green on with a hydraulic press. It got to the point that it was becoming dangerous and had to back off.


Loctite 609/641 has been routinely used on certain Cervelo frames with PF30 BBs for many years now. As others have stated, it's a gap filler and NOT an adhesive. I believe the 3000PSI you refer to is it's compressive strength (think concrete).

That being said, the OP probably should have tried grease first and only moved onto locktite if he had creaking issues as the hassle factor with grease is much less.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

*Spelling*



Waspinator said:


> Once again, I will say it: this bb30/pf30 standard is completely f***ed.


Don't confuse the two. BB30 has a far more advanced tolerances than PF30 and BB386. That's why BB30 is mostly found on higher dollar frames. Typical Asian spec frames won't have BB30. Sadly, now a days you have to add BB standard to the top tube length as being a purchasing factor.


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## Mr Evil (Aug 12, 2011)

redondoaveb said:


> It has rubber o-rings on the cups. The alloy cups are slightly undersized and the 0-rings give it the tight seal. I think Wheels Manufacturing figured out that not all shells have the same tolerances and designed it for that purpose. I posted a picture earlier.


That's why PF30 is supposed to use plastic cups. I don't know why BB manufacturers started making them out of aluminium; all it does is make them harder to fit, and increases the risk of corrosion, especially in carbon or Ti frames.


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## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Waspinator said:


> Looking at the Ridley frame quality overall, I highly doubt the tolerances are "tight". Inaccurate, yes. In need of some flex from the bb bearing cups? Perhaps.
> 
> Seems to me that Ridley is the only manufacturer utilizing the pressfit 30 standard to require that their customers use only plastic bb cups (presumably to accommodate their sloppy manufacturing). And I say they can go f*** themselves. I'm not putting plastic down there. I shouldn't have to. What's next? They ask me to secure the stem onto the carbon steerer tube with bubble gum?
> 
> Once again, I will say it: this bb30/pf30 standard is completely f***ed. If bike manufacturers have any common sense, they will promptly revert back to a threaded design, which has worked flawlessly for half a century. The current standards have been around for half a decade, and have proven themselves to be miserably problematic.


Let me get this straight, you completely ignored a manufacturers directions, claiming you should be able to do as you like. Where do you think you will stand with a warranty when they take a look at the BB if there is an issue? While I'm not a fan of the BB30, I know for a fact I would have backed off when things weren't going smoothly rather than grabbing some shop glasses and cranking down harder.


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## goodboyr (Apr 19, 2006)

Lots of urban legend in this thread. I have personally installed and removed a number of PF30 (plastic and alloy) BB's in BBright frames. They do "pop" as they go in. Every one of them did this to varying degrees. And they run fine and no frame damage. As others have said, it is the BB binding slightly then letting go as it moves into frame. Nothing to worry about. I have used grease, Loctite 609, 680 and 641, and used the activator. The 641 is the one that is safe for plastics, the 680 is for alloy, and the 609 is for bigger gap filling, but can be used instead of 680. They are not glue, they are gap fillers, and form into almost a plastic that wicks around the shell and fills and evens out the gaps. When it comes to removal, they come out just as "easy" as others. What I mean by that is that to remove these bb's you use the Park tool and a mallet and bang the cups out of the frame. It's not for the faint of heart, but it works just fine.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

and this thread is a damn great example whenever the topic of "pressfit vs. threaded bottom brackets" come up every once in a while on RBR.

good thing that Felt and Pinarello are heading back to the threaded bb direction.


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## Waspinator (Jul 5, 2013)

mikerp said:


> Let me get this straight, you completely ignored a manufacturers directions, claiming you should be able to do as you like. Where do you think you will stand with a warranty when they take a look at the BB if there is an issue? While I'm not a fan of the BB30, I know for a fact I would have backed off when things weren't going smoothly rather than grabbing some shop glasses and cranking down harder.


Correct. I pressed those suckers in harder. And it seems like the people who have actual experience with the process (as I do now) believe that the loud pops are normal.

It was my intent to put aluminum bearing cups regardless. So Ridley's recommendations didn't mean squat to me.


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## .40AET (Aug 8, 2008)

We're you using the Park BBT-30.3 bottom bracket tool in conjunction with the headset press? The Rotor directions do say to use a medium thread locker. I'd be feeling sick after all that. Good luck


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