# Why the chase down of Simeoni?



## Jdub

Anyone know why the hell LA chased down Simeoni a little while ago? WHat was that all about?


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## bimini

*Out of Court Settlement*

He told Simeoni that he personally won't let any of his breaks go ever again unless he dropped the lawsuit.



Jdub said:


> Anyone know why the hell LA chased down Simeoni a little while ago? WHat was that all about?


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## BBunny

*Man oh man!*

I don't anyone believed what Lance did. Did you see Simeoni tell the leaders when they arrived, "look who I've got with me". Incredible. The man is incredible. What is the law suit about?


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## Jdub

*Missed that one*



bimini said:


> He told Simeoni that he personally won't let any of his breaks go ever again unless he dropped the lawsuit.



Wow, some how I missed that whole drama. Just read up on it in cycling news. Funny stuff. What a bunch of children pro-cyclists are.


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## tom_o

14:06 CEST 49km/117.5km to go
Armstrong and Simeoni are still at odds off the back of the break. Armstrong chased down Simeoni when he went after them. Simeoni is suing Armstrong for slander after Lance called Simeoni a liar, so the pair are not best buddies. And Lance is now behaving like a real patron, taking charge of the situation personally. Maybe he was talking to Hinault over a bottle of wine last night.


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## BBunny

*Liar?*

What did Simeoni say? Probably that Lance was doping. Lance gets furious about that issue, which I don't blame him. When you do what he has done on your talent and ability and then people discount the whole thing with baseless accusations that you did it on drugs, it would make me furious too.


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## Jdub

*Who's your daddy Simeoni!*

Cycling news Live coverage

15:27 CEST 93km/73.5km to go
According to the unofficial word in the press room, when Armstrong reached the break earlier with Simeoni, he allegedly said "If you ride with Simeoni in this breakaway, I'll put my team on the front to chase you down." There will no doubt be more to come in this story today.


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## seeborough

*...like my Mama always said:*

Son, don't spit into the wind and, ...oh yeah, ...don't ever piss on Superman's cape!


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## mohair_chair

seeborough said:


> Son, don't spit into the wind and, ...oh yeah, ...don't ever piss on Superman's cape!


Your mom was Jim Croce?


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## 97 Teran

*Excellent*

It's funny to have someone actually behaving as the Patron; Lance has been called that many times but in name only, since he has rarely exercised the authority as Hinault and others did. We need more old school in the peloton, it has diverged too far from its roots IMHO.

Re: his 'relationship' with Simeoni, I won't take sides, but I do get a kick out of seeing a great rider- any great rider- showing others their place once in a while, even if it is puerile in nature. I expect Simeoni is furious, and perhaps rightly so.


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## Spunout

Well, looks like Lance has to protect his guilt by association with Ferrari. Goes back to some of Lemond's original arguments also.

Simeoni testifies in court that Ferrari is the Junkman. As Lance uses Ferrari also, Lance calls Simeoni a liar. Simeoni did not implicate Lance, Lance implicated Lance by publically calling Simeoni out.

So when it comes down to a race, Lance is a big a$$hole because he won't let the race take place. He has brought personal business into the peleton. What a jerk. You see how defensive he is, so what is he hiding?

Never tested positive. Him and Millar.


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## mrrun2fast

Defensive? I think anyone would be, if there were constant attacks with no evidence behind the claims.


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## Spunout

mrrun2fast said:


> Defensive? I think anyone would be, if there were constant attacks with no evidence behind the claims.


Simeoni did not implicate or mention Lance. Lance took it upon himself to call him a liar in the press without provocation. Who looks guilty?


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## Jdub

*Let the race take place????*



Spunout said:


> Well, looks like Lance has to protect his guilt by association with Ferrari. Goes back to some of Lemond's original arguments also.
> 
> Simeoni testifies in court that Ferrari is the Junkman. As Lance uses Ferrari also, Lance calls Simeoni a liar. Simeoni did not implicate Lance, Lance implicated Lance by publically calling Simeoni out.
> 
> So when it comes down to a race, Lance is a big a$$hole because he won't let the race take place. He has brought personal business into the peleton. What a jerk. You see how defensive he is, so what is he hiding?
> 
> Never tested positive. Him and Millar.



Since when does riding faster to reel someone in mean not letting the race take place. He was merely asserting his dominance over a weaker rider. The motive for doing so aside, racing is racing. If the man wearing the yellow with two days left decides he doesn't want to let someone go. So be it ... 

This whole doping thing is getting out of hand. None of you... not one of you reading this board has any proof that he is using or anyone else is using for that matter. I'm not saying he is or isn't. You guys speak as if you know some big secret though. As if you have trunk full of hidden info that no one elses has been able to turn up. Statements of heresay and the like do not constitute facts. Thank god the majority of the free world's justice systems don't operate on the basis of your definition of proof. We'd all be in prison because someone decided they just didn't like us. By your inferences and weak logic anyone that has won any cycling races in the past 10 years or more did it using drugs. You go down that path too far and soon there's no one left racing bikes except the chubby guy I passed on my ride last night. Why can't somone just be good? Are you jealous or something? 

whatever ... I'm done ...


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## Jdub

*Not the way Cycling news reported ...*



Spunout said:


> Simeoni did not implicate or mention Lance. Lance took it upon himself to call him a liar in the press without provocation. Who looks guilty?



This is not the way cycling news reported it from what I remember. Show me what article or information you are referring to?

I'll will go and dig and see what I can find to post. I suggest you do the same.


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## bimini

*I think it's a hoot!*

I'm sure there is a lot of personal business going on in the pelOton. These folks spend a lot of time together. 

So LA intentionally scurries off to the break, graps the little weasle Simeoni by the scruff of the neck and drags him back to the Peloton. Then brags to his school yard buddies about it while the little whimp sulks at the end of the line where the other little boys can't see him cry. Great Stuff! Boys will be boys. 

Maybe a little childish, maybe he is being a jerk about it. But, I bet he really enjoyed it. 

It's Good To Be The KING! 

And what can Simeoni do, run home and tell his Mommy (I mean his lawyers). Whaaaa!

Adds a little entertainment now that the race is over.



Spunout said:


> Well, looks like Lance has to protect his guilt by association with Ferrari. Goes back to some of Lemond's original arguments also.
> 
> Simeoni testifies in court that Ferrari is the Junkman. As Lance uses Ferrari also, Lance calls Simeoni a liar. Simeoni did not implicate Lance, Lance implicated Lance by publically calling Simeoni out.
> 
> So when it comes down to a race, Lance is a big a$$hole because he won't let the race take place. He has brought personal business into the peleton. What a jerk. You see how defensive he is, so what is he hiding?
> 
> Never tested positive. Him and Millar.


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## 97 Teran

*My impression...*

of the Simeoni thing is not really to Lance's credit- Simeoni testified, and Lance disagreed with some of his assertions. To call someone a liar publicly isn't a very smart move. Ferrari can, and should, defend himself. Not Lance's fight. The fact that he still respects and works with Ferrari shouldn't be a problem- there is no 'inherent' doping story there, only if there is actually a doping story. But, journalists need to earn their money, so that's why we keep hearing about this over and over and over. 

So, while I appreciate the Patron-style behavior, I don't think any more of Lance for making this personal. However, to think that this kind of stuff doesn't go on all the time in the peloton, between riders of widely differing abilities (not just the man in yellow), is unrealistic IMO.


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## Jdub

*ok*



Jdub said:


> This is not the way cycling news reported it from what I remember. Show me what article or information you are referring to?
> 
> I'll will go and dig and see what I can find to post. I suggest you do the same.



I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. However, I still don't think this statement by LA constitutes an admittance of guilt or even hints that he is guilty. He has been connected with Ferrari time and time again. As have countless other athletes. It's in his interest to defend his character. Also I was unable to find Armstrong's response in the full context. Did he simply come out of the blue and say Simeoni was lying? Or was he asked in an interview. Two very different scenarios.

Also, how do you know that LA isn't telling the truth and Simeoni (Lemond for that matter) isn't lying. The argfument that these guys are just sour grapes about the whole thing can be just as easilly made. This is why innocent until proven guilty is written into at least the US legal system. It's far too easy for pessimistic humans to assume the wrong level of guilt based on emotions or misleading evidence.

I found this cycling news article. Like I said I couldn't find a complete article on LA's response in context.

News for February 13, 2002
Edited by John Stevenson


Recent results and new features
Simeoni testifies: "Dr Ferrari prescribed EPO"
Italian rider Filippo Simeoni has admitted to taking EPO and growth hormone under the instruction of Italian sports doctor Michele Ferrari, in the latest stage of the hearings against Ferrari in Bologna, yesterday. Ferrari is accused of sporting fraud and illegally acting as a pharmacist.

Simeoni, who is riding for Mario Cipollini's Acqua e Sapone team this year, said that he started taking drugs in 1993, and in 1996-7 Ferrari prescribed him EPO and human growth hormone. "I started to go to DR Ferrari in November 1996 because I'd heard he was very good, very professional. I went to Ferrara (where Ferrari had his office) and the doctor set me up with a training program, including levels of progression."

Simeoni said he had initially been prescribed EPO, and in March and April of 1997, "we spoke about andriol (testosterone) which I was to use after hard training sessions with the aim of increasing my muscular power."

Simeoni said he obtained the drugs from pharmacies in Switzerland, and his visits to Ferrari were paid for by Carrera, his team at the time. When the team refused to pay for another year, Simeoni said he stopped seeing Ferrari.

The magistrates produced as evidence instructions for the rider, allegedly written by Ferrari, marked with asterisks. The magistrate asked if these asterisks indicated illicit substances.

"They indicated I was to take andriol after long rides, of five or six hours," said Simeoni. "DR Ferrari told me to be careful not to take testosterone too close to competitions to avoid being controlled positive."

"To avoid possible problems, DR Ferrari recommended I use Emagel the morning before controls, and another product to decrease my haematocrit."

After giving evidence, Simeoni said, "I decided to tell the truth to break the 'omerta' in the hope that it can help to fight the problem of doping which involves cycling and sport in general."

"It's difficult to fight doping but to do so we have to improve the controls. It's very expensive and it's not easy but it's the best thing to do. Unfortunately, doping techniques always travel faster than anti-doping tests."

Simeoni told journalists that he had not been subjected to any pressure by his fellow riders after he had made the decision to testify. "I think most of them are on my side because they've all dedicated their lives to cycling and love this sport. It's in their interests that we're protected."

The case continues on February 19 with the testimony of Gianluca Bortolami (Tacconi), originally scheduled to testify yesterday, and others.


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## Jdub

*context*



97 Teran said:


> of the Simeoni thing is not really to Lance's credit- Simeoni testified, and Lance disagreed with some of his assertions. To call someone a liar publicly isn't a very smart move. Ferrari can, and should, defend himself. Not Lance's fight. The fact that he still respects and works with Ferrari shouldn't be a problem- there is no 'inherent' doping story there, only if there is actually a doping story. But, journalists need to earn their money, so that's why we keep hearing about this over and over and over.
> 
> So, while I appreciate the Patron-style behavior, I don't think any more of Lance for making this personal. However, to think that this kind of stuff doesn't go on all the time in the peloton, between riders of widely differing abilities (not just the man in yellow), is unrealistic IMO.



I still would like to see LA's response in context. Context is everything. Why, when, and how exactly did he respond to this information about Simeoni's statements?


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## russw19

Spunout said:


> So when it comes down to a race, Lance is a big a$$hole because he won't let the race take place. He has brought personal business into the peleton. What a jerk. You see how defensive he is, so what is he hiding?
> 
> Never tested positive. Him and Millar.



What do you mean he won't let the race take place? As far as I could tell, there was 100 kilometers of racing taking place today. Lance just wasn't going to let Simeoni get up in that break. The break could have all worked together and told Lance to blow it out his a$$, but then they would have had USPS chasing them down. Seems an aweful lot like racing to me. I guess racing now means you have to let all the breaks get away? 

Anyways, I know what you mean in that the break was of no threat to Lance or USPS, but all he wanted was Simeoni out of it. Once he was, they let that break survive. I didn't have a problem with that.


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## mohair_chair

Lemond calls Lance a liar and you take Lemond's side. Lance calls Simeoni a liar and you take Simeoni's side. I see a pattern here.


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## svend

mohair_chair said:


> Lemond calls Lance a liar and you take Lemond's side. Lance calls Simeoni a liar and you take Simeoni's side. I see a pattern here.


An astute observation of the obvious. People only see what they want. Nice to see the alpha dog assert himself, must have been rather humiliating for Simeoni to skulk back to the group.


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## Wayne77

Jdub said:


> Cycling news Live coverage
> 
> 15:27 CEST 93km/73.5km to go
> According to the unofficial word in the press room, when Armstrong reached the break earlier with Simeoni, he allegedly said "If you ride with Simeoni in this breakaway, I'll put my team on the front to chase you down." There will no doubt be more to come in this story today.



Funny thing is, he wouldn't have to put his team in front. Just by staying with the break guarantees T Mobile and CSC would do the job for him


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## MaRider

97 Teran said:


> of the Simeoni thing is not really to Lance's credit- Simeoni testified, and Lance disagreed with some of his assertions. To call someone a liar publicly isn't a very smart move.


Lance was asked about Simeoni allegations about Ferrari in french newspaper and Lance said something to the effect that Simeoni has changed his story so many times it's simply not believable anymore. He then repeated the same statement in another interview. Simeoni filed a defamation suit against Lance, now Lance is really pissed at Simeoni.


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## Jdub

*ok*



MaRider said:


> Lance was asked about Simeoni allegations about Ferrari in french newspaper and Lance said something to the effect that Simeoni has changed his story so many times it's simply not believable anymore. He then repeated the same statement in another interview. Simeoni filed a defamation suit against Lance, now Lance is really pissed at Simeoni.



That seems a little more reasonable and believable. Spunout makes it sound like Lance called a press conference on his own accord with out being questioned, after Simeoni testified to tell the press his opinion.

Who the hell knows. 

If you try to drown a suspected witch you just end up with a dead body.


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## glavint

*Addendum to David Walsh's new book*

"And recently during the 2004 TdF Lance Armstrong bribes riders in a breakaway to not support a potential witness to his doping activities. Rumors of thousands of dollars being offered to kick the offending rider out of the breakaway have been heard by someone...as were threats by Armstrong to find 50 riders in the peloton to testify to their daily use of EPO..."

LOL


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## atpjunkie

*Don Armstrong*

I guess he also told the other riders in the break if Simeoni stays the break is lost. oh yeah, who was the guy who said atheletes use personal issues to fuel their competitve fires?
.....oh yeah, me (sorry gloating again)
who was it who said "the Tours enough motivation?"
so Yellow Jersey holder breaks from peloton to settle 'personal issue' that isn't the Tour.
I'm expecting my apology anytime. I won't hold my breath, you're probably still choking down all the Crow.

first no gifts, now this. LA is really trying to join the Merckx, Hinault club.


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## Icefrk13

*I think*

Lance said lets just rip the legs off these guys! But alas little samoni could not make the jusm and just faded away.  

Matt


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## jumphress

*I'm with you, Spunout*

I can't quite fathom Lance's defense of Ferrari. There is really no longer any question that Ferrari was (is?) a proponent of EPO use. If I was in Lance's shoes I would have distanced myself from the guy years ago.

His actions today just add more fuel to the speculative fire.


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## PdxMark

*Velonews*

Velonews has a great write-up about it...

http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/details/articles/6647.0.html


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## Niwot

*Hey, chump, I've got your 100,000 euros right here*

More from the cyclingnews.com live report:

_An update on Simeoni's lawsuit. His lawyer said that he is demanding a "symbolic sum of €100,000" from Lance Armstrong, after Armstrong said in a Le Monde interview that Simeoni was telling lies. 

Simeoni told Cyclingnews at the start of the Tour: "Remember that I denounced him for this defamation when he declared publicly to newspapers that I was a liar, when I simply testified as an honest citizen in front of a judge, telling my personal experience. (Armstrong) publicly insulted me and took advantage of his media power. That really bothered me and so I'm seeking legal recourse for this." _ 

No wonder. Lance probably wouldn't have cared as long as it was just a pizzing match in the media, but when the clown sues and starts demanding a "symbolic sum" of 100,000 euros, well, if it was me, I'd be doing the same thing Lance did.

No breakaways for you!    



Jdub said:


> Cycling news Live coverage
> 15:27 CEST 93km/73.5km to go
> According to the unofficial word in the press room, when Armstrong reached the break earlier with Simeoni, he allegedly said "If you ride with Simeoni in this breakaway, I'll put my team on the front to chase you down." There will no doubt be more to come in this story today.


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## ChuckUni

*I think this picture....*

shows some of the feelings going on between the two.

it's from the velonews article on the subject: http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/news/articles/6653.0.html


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## Flav

*It's all well and good...*



ChuckUni said:


> shows some of the feelings going on between the two.
> 
> it's from the velonews article on the subject: http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/news/articles/6653.0.html


If it is as LA states -- "_When I went back to the group I can't say how many riders said, ‘Thank you very much'. They understand that it is their job, and they don't want somebody from within destroying it."_ -- then I think it's only right that those riders come forward with their support for him. If not now, then at least once the race is over. Otherwise, they're cowards.


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## ttug

*NOW its a great race*



Flav said:


> If it is as LA states -- "_When I went back to the group I can't say how many riders said, ‘Thank you very much'. They understand that it is their job, and they don't want somebody from within destroying it."_ -- then I think it's only right that those riders come forward with their support for him. If not now, then at least once the race is over. Otherwise, they're cowards.



He deserved it. Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. You may get it. They wanted to piss Lance off. Oh well, the job is done.


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## 633

*From Velonews*

"As they dropped off the back, it was clear that Armstrong and Simeoni shared some words, with the Texan even placing his right hand on the Italian's left shoulder."


Finally, he kissed Simeoni on both cheeks, then turned his back as Luca Brazzi led Simeoni away.


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## TrailNut

*bully for Lance!*

"...And Lance is now behaving like a real patron, taking charge of the situation personally..."
yes, go Lance!


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## The Human G-Nome

russw19 said:


> What do you mean he won't let the race take place? As far as I could tell, there was 100 kilometers of racing taking place today. Lance just wasn't going to let Simeoni get up in that break. The break could have all worked together and told Lance to blow it out his a$$, but then they would have had USPS chasing them down. Seems an aweful lot like racing to me. I guess racing now means you have to let all the breaks get away?
> 
> Anyways, I know what you mean in that the break was of no threat to Lance or USPS, but all he wanted was Simeoni out of it. Once he was, they let that break survive. I didn't have a problem with that.


Another voice of reason! Yes, LA is free to do anything he wants in the race. Afterall, it's a race. His reasons for any of his actions on the bike are none of anyone's g/dam business. Fans are acting like they're owed an apology from LA just for chasing down a break. Sheesh. Live with it.


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## The Human G-Nome

mohair_chair said:


> Lemond calls Lance a liar and you take Lemond's side. Lance calls Simeoni a liar and you take Simeoni's side. I see a pattern here.


Excellent!


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## atpjunkie

*a couple guesses*



jumphress said:


> I can't quite fathom Lance's defense of Ferrari.? actually I'm not sure it's all completely verified (EPO/Ferrari Link)
> 
> A) he doesn't like the 'guilt by association' that comes with it
> 
> B) possibly Dr. F actually gave LA good non-dope help during his recovery years. LA is fiercly loyal to those who stood by him when he was down
> 
> C) or B2, He knows Dr F is falsely accused, he knows the sting of such and is therefore sympathetic
> 
> D) he's guilty, I'm not trolling but if I left this out the haters would say "dude you're so biased, LA fanboy, yadda yadda even though they haven't read any of my history on such things or my current support of Eddy in the LA vs Eddy debate
> 
> any more?


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## ttug

*Its All Personal, The Whole Race Is Personal*



Spunout said:


> Well, looks like Lance has to protect his guilt by association with Ferrari. Goes back to some of Lemond's original arguments also.
> 
> Simeoni testifies in court that Ferrari is the Junkman. As Lance uses Ferrari also, Lance calls Simeoni a liar. Simeoni did not implicate Lance, Lance implicated Lance by publically calling Simeoni out.
> 
> So when it comes down to a race, Lance is a big a$$hole because he won't let the race take place. He has brought personal business into the peleton. What a jerk. You see how defensive he is, so what is he hiding?
> 
> Never tested positive. Him and Millar.


Are you really trying to say that all of these folks out there are just business as usual? Sorry. Thats [email protected]

Everyone of these people has their own agenda.

The bottom line in all of this is that if you diss the sport and a huge figure in the sport with an association with the man of mytery is there (Ferrari), you are a fool to piss off the HMFIC. HMFIC is the Yellow jersey and thus, all of this would go away if snot nosed kiddy avearge racer had shut his cake hole.


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## 97 Teran

*Thanks for that link*



PdxMark said:


> Velonews has a great write-up about it...
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/details/articles/6647.0.html



My question is... what does Simeoni have to gain by "destroying cycling", i.e. testifying, theoretically falsely, against Ferrari? We may never know, but I can't see anything obvious- it's not like he's a has been or is retired, because he was chosen for a Tour squad this year. How many pro riders never even make the Tour... IF his testimony is factual, and his crime is merely breaking up the hushed atmosphere around doping, that's not him destroying cycling, rather cycling destroying itself- don't blame the messenger. The sad thing is we'll probably never conclusively know the answer...

That's a strong statement by Armstrong, and I sure hope he knows what he's doing.


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## atpjunkie

*same people that say*

the Tour is motivation enough. sorry but they also need drugs for motivation {sarcasm}

anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy, anger is an enegy

John Lydon


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## The Human G-Nome

97 Teran said:


> My question is... what does Simeoni have to gain by "destroying cycling", i.e. testifying, theoretically falsely, against Ferrari? We may never know, but I can't see anything obvious- it's not like he's a has been or is retired, because he was chosen for a Tour squad this year. How many pro riders never even make the Tour... IF his testimony is factual, and his crime is merely breaking up the hushed atmosphere around doping, that's not him destroying cycling, rather cycling destroying itself- don't blame the messenger. The sad thing is we'll probably never conclusively know the answer...
> 
> That's a strong statement by Armstrong, and I sure hope he knows what he's doing.


It should tell you something when even his team leader, Cipo, didn't want Simeoni on the Tour team. You don't mess with the family name and in the peloton they are a family. Even if someone is guilty, it's akin to finding out that your brother stole something and then taking it upon yourself to drive down to the police station and turn him in. There are better ways.


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## ChuckUni

*yeah, I'm on the fence about this one...*

view #1: It's possible that Simeoni is telling the truth with his testimony. If so, and Ferrari has been pushing EPO and other drugs....good for Simeoni for having the balls to call him out. I personally don't want a chemist changing the results of any race if possible. Does this mean lance is instantly guilty by association? NO. He should explain how Ferrari went about helping him during that time (if he has already, it's a good time to do so again) Frankly these claims of "wanting to destroy cycling from inside" are bullsh!t....what does Simeoni have to gain by destroying his occupation? Nothing...that I can see. A little attention maybe, hardly worth the effort. 

As for Lance chasing Simeoni..... Like someone said in today's Velonews mailbag, it was like watching a episode of the "Sopranos"....you get the feeling that if Simeoni is telling the truth, he is just getting pushed around to shut him up. If he is telling the truth, how can we ever fight doping with actions like today's?

view #2 It's also possible that Simeoni is in fact lying for whatever reason. I could see the reason for lance to be angry in this case, as he has put up with a lot of accusations. Only if Simeoni is flat out lying would lance's move be acceptable, IMO....and it was marginal at that.

Will we ever know for sure about any of this?,.....dunno. But I'd like to hear both sides of the story without simply one calling the other a liar. No lawsuits would be refreshing as well. 

just some random thoughts...fwiw.

-Chuck


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## PJay

*say uncle...*

here is what it looks like to have LA riding your *** and watching your expression as he does it


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## p lo

*question*

can anyone think of a rider that has admitted that doping is widespread and didn't get pushed out of the sport?

wasn't Miller just saying how crazy his teammates under investigation were and that they were "nutters" talking crazy alligations...

i don't know if lance is a doper, but i thought what he did today seemed a little out of line.


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## MaRider

ttug said:


> Are you really trying to say that all of these folks out there are just business as usual? Sorry. Thats [email protected]
> 
> Everyone of these people has their own agenda.
> .


No, No, No, no!

It's not personal with Lance vs. Ullrich, at least not to the point that it's personal in Lance vs. Simeoni. Not true in Lance vs. Heras or Lance vs. Botero or Lance vs. Simoni or Lance vs. Basso or Lance vs. Kloden or Lance vs. anyoneelse. 

However, I think I am split on this one. On one hand, it seems unfair for LA to single out one rider and to make his professional life so much harder because he admitted to using drugs and implicated a doctor who was a consultant to LA. On the other hand, it was all within the rules of the sport - if LA wants to spend his energy chasing people he doesn't personally like, well, that's his weakness that other, like Ulrich or Basso may try to utilize. Perhaps T-Mobile or CS should hire Simeoni and make it his job to get in every single breakaway to drain the energy from US Postal team. To some degree I am disappointed that Lance is not more professional than that and that he lets things like that get into his head, while at the same time I hope that if it was 2nd stage of TdF instead of 18 when he has his win virtually sown up, that he wouldn't bite at the bait so easily. Then again, perhaps using his strength to settle the point between two guys is the type of macho cycling we missed for many years.


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## Dwaynebarry

p lo said:


> can anyone think of a rider that has admitted that doping is widespread and didn't get pushed out of the sport?
> 
> wasn't Miller just saying how crazy his teammates under investigation were and that they were "nutters" talking crazy alligations...
> 
> i don't know if lance is a doper, but i thought what he did today seemed a little out of line.


Yes, this is typical pro cyclist attitude when it comes to doping. Keep everything quiet, I mean for christ's sake, why would Simeoni lie about Dr. Ferrari doping him? Of course the other riders applauded Armstrong, they don't like it when a rider spills the beans even after he is caught. It's in everybody's interest to keep the way the game is played hush-hush.


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## Bocephus Jones

what is this quote about from the velonews story? Riders saying to Lance, "Hey, chapeau ... thank you very much." Is his nickname really "Hat"?


----------



## ChuckUni

*macho cycling...*



MaRider said:


> Then again, perhaps using his strength to settle the point between two guys is the type of macho cycling we missed for many years.


I would agree with you....In fact yesterday was exactly that IMO. Lance wanted to drive home the point to Ullrich that he wanted to see Floyd get a stage win....and also possibly to get a shot in on the German fans who apparently booed and spit on him using Ullrich and Kloden as a target. It was great...can't beat it. However today's show just had dirt all over it....in one way or another.


----------



## AJS

LA hasn't been proven to use dope? Well, guys like David Millar and Richard Virenque also denied their involvement for as long as they could - until they finally showed positive. Then and ONLY then did they 'fess up.

Think about it.


----------



## giovanni sartori

*Think about this*



AJS said:


> LA hasn't been proven to use dope? Well, guys like David Millar and Richard Virenque also denied their involvement for as long as they could - until they finally showed positive. Then and ONLY then did they 'fess up.
> 
> Think about it.



A lot of my friends in High School smoked pot, maybe in an effort to be cool; when their parents asked them about they said they didn't do drugs. I remember when a couple of them had their stash found by their parents. They admitted it then. I used to hang out with them all the time, I never smoked pot.

Think about it.

Virenque is Virenque
Millar is Millar
Armstrong is Armstrong
Landis is Landis


----------



## p lo

*miller and virenque never tested positive either*

is the problem really bad and most of the peleton is on drugs? maybe? i really don't want to know because i am too much a fan of pro cycling. 



AJS said:


> LA hasn't been proven to use dope? Well, guys like David Millar and Richard Virenque also denied their involvement for as long as they could - until they finally showed positive. Then and ONLY then did they 'fess up.
> 
> Think about it.


----------



## Francis Cebedo

I've never really heard of Simeoni before until today and I just read the velonews report. <-Disclaimer.

It seems like there is a 'Code of Silence' here. You know, like cops squealing on other cops. It's what 90% of what all cop movies are made of.

Break the code and you're out.

francois


----------



## Wayne77

*Oh no, only two views to choose from!*



ChuckUni said:


> view #1: It's possible that Simeoni is telling the truth with his testimony. If so, and Ferrari has been pushing EPO and other drugs....good for Simeoni for having the balls to call him out. I personally don't want a chemist changing the results of any race if possible. Does this mean lance is instantly guilty by association? NO. He should explain how Ferrari went about helping him during that time (if he has already, it's a good time to do so again) Frankly these claims of "wanting to destroy cycling from inside" are bullsh!t....what does Simeoni have to gain by destroying his occupation? Nothing...that I can see. A little attention maybe, hardly worth the effort.
> 
> As for Lance chasing Simeoni..... Like someone said in today's Velonews mailbag, it was like watching a episode of the "Sopranos"....you get the feeling that if Simeoni is telling the truth, he is just getting pushed around to shut him up. If he is telling the truth, how can we ever fight doping with actions like today's?
> 
> view #2 It's also possible that Simeoni is in fact lying for whatever reason. I could see the reason for lance to be angry in this case, as he has put up with a lot of accusations. Only if Simeoni is flat out lying would lance's move be acceptable, IMO....and it was marginal at that.
> 
> Will we ever know for sure about any of this?,.....dunno. But I'd like to hear both sides of the story without simply one calling the other a liar. No lawsuits would be refreshing as well.
> 
> just some random thoughts...fwiw.
> 
> -Chuck


Thanks for officially clarifying the only two valid "views" on this subject. Im not sure which one to choose...  Ok, friendly sarcasm aside, here's another view to add to those already in this thread:

Im directing this at the general audience, not to anyone specifically:

The amount of psychoanalysis here is amazing. (You are all responsible for me not completing my status report today, thank you very much.) The Tour, like any major sporting event, gains a large part of its excitement from the drama, side stories, and trash-talk surrounding it. If you want a Miss Manners convention, turn to QVC when they're selling pink sweaters or something. Since when do we expect sports figures to act like good-will ambasadors? What happened today made a boring stage quite entertaining! 

A question for those of you pouting about that "meany old Lance bully"- How is this different than any of the other myriad personal vendetta's that occur in the NBA, NFL, Hockey, etc etc etc? Lance chose to assert his complete dominance (once again) of this years Tour by throwing his weight around (something he earned & with the blessing of many in the peloton). An angelic move? certainly not. In your face? Yes. Isn't that what we get from modern sports? We watch it for the athletism, the drama, the ugliness, the courage, the underdogs, the dominators, and the trashtalking. We don't watch sports trying to learn about kind, warm-fuzzy social decency - we learn that from our mommys and daddies. I certainly don't teach my kids to emulate Lance's marraige commitment.

I seriously don't get what all the hoopla is about. He takes his frustration out (unfounded or not) on Simeoni by sending the crying little whelp to the back of the classroom. So what? This from the guy known for "The Look", dating a rock star, showing the peloton day in and day out who the big daddy is...I'm SHOCKED! 

About Simeoni being a liar. Hmmm. Simeoni INSISTS (not "thinks, to the best of his knowledge" mind you) in court that Ferrari never helped him dope. Then Simeoni says in court that Ferrari has everything to do with doping. One of those statements must be a lie. Ergo, Simeoni lied. Lance is just calling a spade a spade. 

Those of you offended by Lance's move today (who seem to expect sports figures to leave everything personal off the roads and fields of play), please give my regards to the sugar plum fairy. 

There is alot of value in being able to sepparate the person from the sportsfigure. I am not ashamed to be a Lance fan. But I am not so naive as to think that there is no chance that Lance ever doped. If that is found to be true, I'll be dispapointed, but until then he deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, "innocent until proven guilty" is a concept that many of us usually only apply to the underdog.


----------



## AJS

Guilt by association? Not necessarily. But there are a lot of allegations out there now that are dogging LA, and of course the Simoni suit.

Speaking of which:



> His lawyer said that he is demanding a "symbolic sum of ?100,000" from Lance Armstrong,


That's called an 'out of court settlement'. Most lawsuits are settled out of court. If LA _is_ legally responsible for what he allegedly said about Simoni, then he'd be wise to settle. If he goes ahead with the case and loses, it'll cost him a lot more financially and reputation-wise.


----------



## seeborough

*No, but,...*

...I always thought she looked a bit different from all the other moms. Hmmm.


----------



## Live Steam

What I want to know is what did LA say to the Peloton before he rode off the front. "Stay here. I'll be right back. I have some business I have to take care of." Ullrich and the others just accept that? Well he is The Boss. Right?


----------



## carlos

what i really dont understand is why the big boys of the peloton care this much about doctor ferrari and his doping issues. why a rider cant tell the truth? is cycling just like the police with its silence wall? 

armstrong said " He's the kind of rider who attacks the peloton and cycling in general.", why is he attacking the peloton? because he said in front of a judge that doctor ferrari have a good relationship with drugs? he didnt speaked any names, why lance was sooooo ofended?

it would be interesting to see lance doing this kind of "macho" attitude with riders like robbie mcewen..... the result would be lance out of the race and a broken nose...


----------



## spankdoggie

carlos said:


> it would be interesting to see lance doing this kind of "macho" attitude with riders like robbie mcewen..... the result would be lance out of the race and a broken nose...


Someone is living in dreamland. No one is giving Lance a broken nose. That is why there are teams in cycling. If anyone touched Lance, there would be serious repercussions from the enforcer in USPS. It is sort of like hockey. You don't screw with the team leader of any team unless you want to get bumped to the curb at 40 mph around a tight turn.


----------



## carlos

lance and simeoni issue is not cycling related, its personal, so why bring it to the tour?


----------



## DrRoebuck

*I'm just in complete and total awe ...*

There's nothing like seeing one man exact his will upon 150+ other men. Day after day after day.


----------



## Ricky2

*Simeoni NEVER called that jerk Armstrong a doper.*



Spunout said:


> Well, looks like Lance has to protect his guilt by association with Ferrari. Goes back to some of Lemond's original arguments also.
> 
> Simeoni testifies in court that Ferrari is the Junkman. As Lance uses Ferrari also, Lance calls Simeoni a liar. Simeoni did not implicate Lance, Lance implicated Lance by publically calling Simeoni out.
> 
> So when it comes down to a race, Lance is a big a$$hole because he won't let the race take place. He has brought personal business into the peleton. What a jerk. You see how defensive he is, so what is he hiding?
> 
> Never tested positive. Him and Millar.




Spunout's got it right. Simeoni was critical of known EPO doc, Dr. Ferrari, as many others have been. He never said **** about Armstrong. Simeoni was called a liar by Armstrong since Armstrong is so sensitive about people being critical of Dr. Ferrari. This is how the argument with Lemond occurred as well. Today's display by Armstrong is classless.


----------



## spankdoggie

carlos said:


> lance and simeoni issue is not cycling related, its personal, so why bring it to the tour?


Unless you are involved in a sport (of any kind), you will never understand/comprehend. In sports, <b>everything</b> is personal. I can't explain it; you have to live it or believe someone who has lived it. I will refrain from calling names at you for that one-liner, bereft of thought.


----------



## Ricky2

*Armstrong's a cocksucking titty baby*

http://www.velonews.com/tour2004/details/articles/6647.0.html

I've had it. I'm tired of Armstrong's bullshit. I am a supporter of hope and the will to survive. I believe in the fight against cancer, but screw it. I don't care what the Lance Fan Club Members say about this.

**** Lance. No more respect for that *******. Somebaody had to say it. And this goes even further back to what Lemond was saying. Simeoni testified that Dr. Ferrari, did indeed, give doping medications to himself and several other riders. He never named Armstrong as one of those riders. Armstrong, was the one that said Simeoni was a liar and out to destroy cycling. Armstrong's a badass jerkwad and decides to badmouth Simeoni for speaking out against Dr. Ferrari. See the pattern here. Armstrong's a badass jerkwad and also decides to harass and threaten Lemond and his wife on the phone (ESPN) because Greg spoke out against Dr. Ferrari.


----------



## george_da_trog

You know what? This Tour really had me thinking it was an iffy Tour in the middle stages between 4 and 10, but now there is drama and depth to the whole thing. When ever you read books on Tour history there is always a back story of stuff going on that only the riders know about and the fan want to know about. I kind of like the idea of Lance acting as the Patron. It's so old school and adds depth to this Tour's story. Eventually the truth will come out and we'll look back and figure out if our assumptions were right or wrong. 

We don't know if Lance is doping. I tend to think he just works harder than everyone else. I don't think he could go this long while dopinng and not get caught. People are getting caught left and right and haven't been as closely test and Lance. 

george


----------



## Spunout

carlos said:


> ...
> armstrong said " He's the kind of rider who attacks the peloton and cycling in general.", why is he attacking the peloton? because he said in front of a judge that doctor ferrari have a good relationship with drugs? he didnt speaked any names, why lance was sooooo ofended?


dingdingdingdingding.

By taking offense, he implicates himself.


----------



## Jdub

*this argument is getting tired*



AJS said:


> LA hasn't been proven to use dope? Well, guys like David Millar and Richard Virenque also denied their involvement for as long as they could - until they finally showed positive. Then and ONLY then did they 'fess up.
> 
> Think about it.



So everyone that denies anything is automatically guilty of that crime.

Does that mean that every elite athlete in the world that says they don't use performance enhancing drugs and has always shown up clean is in fact lying. The only ones that aren't lying are the ones that admit they used the drugs.

That's complete horse sh!t. You people are pathetic. 

I'm not saying I think LA used or didn't used. I honestly don't know, but there's no evidence to support anything other than what he has been telling everyone.


----------



## Jdub

*nice spank ...*



spankdoggie said:


> Someone is living in dreamland. No one is giving Lance a broken nose. That is why there are teams in cycling. If anyone touched Lance, there would be serious repercussions from the enforcer in USPS. It is sort of like hockey. You don't screw with the team leader of any team unless you want to get bumped to the curb at 40 mph around a tight turn.



Where you been? I was wondering where you've been on this one. I figured you'd have something to add. 

We might need some dog pics soon on this one. Some people are getting pretty bent out of shape


----------



## Jdub

*I'm offended!*



Spunout said:


> dingdingdingdingding.
> 
> By taking offense, he implicates himself.



By your ignorance, does that implicate me!?!

That is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Everyone that has opinions is obviously at fault.  

Did you ever think that LA has become essentially the one and only spokesman for cycling in the US and is a pretty dominant spokesperson in the rest of the cycling world. Somone can't take a sh!t in the Peloton with out "Le Monde" (the magazine not the guy) asking Armstrong what his opinion of it is. That's just the way it goes at that level.


----------



## AJS

*Jdub* - 

Of course you're free to think what you want, but you can stifle the unnecessary personal attacks. It is no more "pathetic" for me to think there is something rotten in Denmark than it is "pathetic" that you don't have a suspicious eye towards supposedly 'clean' riders, given what we know from years past, and recently with Millar's travails.

But I did not say that "everyone that denies anything is automatically guilty of that crime" - those are your words. The point is that it has been shown even high-profile cyclists can get away with lying about doping for as much as a couple of years before they're caught out. It's totally reasonable to be cynical in this case, at least until the dope-supporting directeurs, sponsors, and doctors are weeded out. That's going to take awhile - if ever.


----------



## CFBlue

*Armstrong Fan Club Members run amuck*

spunout is 100% correct. Armstrong could've minded his own business, but decided to call someone a liar (Simeoni) who *never* even said anything about Armstrong. Remember, it was Simeoni who testified that Dr. Ferrari assisted him and other riders with doping. He never named Armstrong! Lance is the one that started spewing **** about Simeoni being a liar. Simeoni is right to sue Armstrong, because unlike the 30 million dollar contract that Armstrong is on, Simeoni gets paid like a domestique. And Armstrong was out to destroy his cycling career. *Armstrong is a complete classless individual for pulling the vindictive crap that he did* to Simeoni in the press and with his racing actions.

_Armstrong could commit murder and you would have people justifying it!_ This is nothing new. Anytime, anything comes up about Armstrong people justify his actions. Why? because Armstrong has a lot of public sentiment for being a hero to the people. He beat cancer. No one wants to admit that he ever did anything wrong.


----------



## AJS

> Armstrong could commit murder and you would have people justifying it! This is nothing new. Anytime, anything comes up about Armstrong people justify his actions.


Kind of the same thing that the Bush supporters are doing, no?

If Armstrong was _really_ a stand-up guy, with all of his fame right now and ability to command attention in the media, he would use this opportunity to be the one railing on doctors that HE KNOWS are dope-pushers. You want to clean the dope out of cycling? Who better than LA to be the one to start kicking ass? No one would dare to touch him, that is IF he were innocent himself.

But there is an ulterior motive, and as usual, it is: $$$. LA doesn't want to bite the hand that has fed his what - $16 million annual income. And it's not only the doctors that are involved, but some of the directeur's, sponsor's, etc.


----------



## Jdub

*Not naive*



AJS said:


> *Jdub* -
> 
> Of course you're free to think what you want, but you can stifle the unnecessary personal attacks. It is no more "pathetic" for me to think there is something rotten in Denmark than it is "pathetic" that you don't have a suspicious eye towards supposedly 'clean' riders, given what we know from years past, and recently with Millar's travails.
> 
> But I did not say that "everyone that denies anything is automatically guilty of that crime" - those are your words. The point is that it has been shown even high-profile cyclists can get away with lying about doping for as much as a couple of years before they're caught out. It's totally reasonable to be cynical in this case, at least until the dope-supporting directeurs, sponsors, and doctors are weeded out. That's going to take awhile - if ever.


I'm not so Naive to think that there is no possibility or that perhaps he is not guilty. It's not beyond reason to think he could be guilty. I just don't assume guilt before I've seen irrefutable proof. I don't think association implies guilt and I don't think making a statement as a sports spokesman when questioned on the topic implies guilt. 

Remember, LA didn't just make these statements in a vaccuum about Simeoni. He was asked very specifically for his opinion and he gave it. If he had answered "no comment" then you guys would all be beating him up for that as well. Saying things like "well no comment obviously implies that he must be guilty."

FYI ... please note I'm really not a super LA fan. Having grown up in NH ski racing with Tyler he's pretty much my favorite. Alas, Tyler has never had the luck on his side.


----------



## Jdub

*relax .... breath*



Manhattan said:


> spunout is 100% correct. Armstrong could've minded his own business, but decided to call someone a liar (Simeoni) who *never* even said anything about Armstrong. Remember, it was Simeoni who testified that Dr. Ferrari assisted him and other riders with doping. He never named Armstrong! Lance is the one that started spewing **** about Simeoni being a liar. Simeoni is right to sue Armstrong, because unlike the 30 million dollar contract that Armstrong is on, Simeoni gets paid like a domestique. And Armstrong was out to destroy his cycling career. *Armstrong is a complete classless individual for pulling the vindictive crap that he did* to Simeoni in the press and with his racing actions.
> 
> _Armstrong could commit murder and you would have people justifying it!_ This is nothing new. Anytime, anything comes up about Armstrong people justify his actions. Why? because Armstrong has a lot of public sentiment for being a hero to the people. He beat cancer. No one wants to admit that he ever did anything wrong.



Remember LA was specifically asked his opinion on the matter by the press. He didn't just hold a press conference and make this random "liar" statement about Simeoni. 

I would make the reverse statement that you make. 

Everytime Armstrong does anything there are an equal number of people like yourself ready to shoot him down and accuse him of everything under the sun. You jealous or something?


----------



## Jdub

*so wait ...*



AJS said:


> Kind of the same thing that the Bush supporters are doing, no?
> 
> If Armstrong was _really_ a stand-up guy, with all of his fame right now and ability to command attention in the media, he would use this opportunity to be the one railing on doctors that HE KNOWS are dope-pushers. You want to clean the dope out of cycling? Who better than LA to be the one to start kicking ass? No one would dare to touch him, that is IF he were innocent himself.
> 
> But there is an ulterior motive, and as usual, it is: $$$. LA doesn't want to bite the hand that has fed his what - $16 million annual income. And it's not only the doctors that are involved, but some of the directeur's, sponsor's, etc.



Let me get this straight. I argue on LA's behalf and that now puts me in the same camp as Bush supporters.

Hold on let me check my wallet ... yup still says Democrat on the card. Lifelong in fact


----------



## CFBlue

Jdub said:


> Remember LA was specifically asked his opinion on the matter by the press. He didn't just hold a press conference and make this random "liar" statement about Simeoni.
> 
> I would make the reverse statement that you make.
> 
> Everytime Armstrong does anything there are an equal number of people like yourself ready to shoot him down and accuse him of everything under the sun. You jealous or something?





I am not defending Armstrong. His actions speak for themselves. Only a total asswipe would pull the vindictive type of actions he did. If Armstrong doesn't agree with someone, then his style is to slander and attack the person making the statement, whether that is about himself or not. Greg Lemond was threated. For what? For saying that Dr. Ferrari is questionable and known around the peloton as THE DOPE DOC? Did you even watch ESPN's Outside the Line Show? Did you? Go ahead, tell us you didn't.

Armstrong's actions on that stage are despicable. He sits on Simeoni's wheel and for the entire duration until the two join the breakaway at which point he tells everybody that he will instruct his team to chase if they don't pressure Simeoni out. Real piece of **** that Armstrong is.

When Armstrong does something wrong, people will say so. If he doesn't, then people will not. Its people like you and the rest of the Lance Fan Club who will go to the ends of the world to latch onto his every word.


----------



## Ricky2

*Simeoni didn't deserve that.*

That's right, but look at it this way. Armstrong has a lot of public support from jdub and the rest of the blind Armstrong fans. Like you say, Armstrong can NEVER do anything wrong in the eyes of the public. He's their hero. To them, he's superman. They think that people speaking out about him is tearing down cycling. To their discredit, Armstrong's actions are already doing a fine job of that.


----------



## Jdub

*Read*



Ricky2 said:


> That's right, but look at it this way. Armstrong has a lot of public support from jdub and the rest of the blind Armstrong fans. Like you say, Armstrong can NEVER do anything wrong in the eyes of the public. He's their hero. To them, he's superman. They think that people speaking out about him is tearing down cycling. To their discredit, Armstrong's actions are already doing a fine job of that.



Apparently you do not read my entire posts.

I'll shorten it up for you since you seem to be too lazy to read.

Jdub = Disappointed Hamilton fan


----------



## Ace Rimmer

*Can someone tell me why?*

Why is it illegal for an adult to take performance enhancing subtances either OTC or prescribed by a physician? Seems allot of time and money are wasted on the "war on drugs". What is the cost to society if an athlete makes a choice to use gear and is monitored by a physician? Does anyone have conclusive studies that proove that gear when used as prescribed is any more dangerous than alcohol or tobbacco? 
The Dark Ages of technology are upon us, indeed.


----------



## carlos

sure, lance never used any kind of performance enhancing substance.... the reason of his success is just trainning, his the only one on the whole world that knows how to train right, everybody else is wrong...... and his close relationship with doc ferrari is just a dream, everybody is dreaming......

remember, the higher you go, the harder the fall.


----------



## Pyg

Manhattan said:


> . His actions speak for themselves. Only a total asswipe would pull the vindictive type of actions he did. If Armstrong doesn't agree with someone, then his style is to slander and attack the person making the statement, whether that is about himself or not. .


 What does that make you? Calling the man vile and childish names; surely that is not "vindictive," "slanderous," and "attacking," now, is it? And it is all because you "dont agree" with what Armstrong did. Sheesh!


----------



## spankdoggie

Lance is the Charles Barkley of the cycling world. Deal with it all you nerds.


----------



## FatSlowGuy

In my country people are inocent until proven quitly, and so far nobody has any proof.


----------



## Miles E

Wayne77 said:


> Thanks for officially clarifying the only two valid "views" on this subject.


Here are "two views" for you:
A. Lance is a doper, in which case his actions on stage 18 were completely understandable (trying to preserve the sport's "code of silence" that has allowed him to fraudulently dominate the race for six years).
B. Lance is not a doper, in which case his actions on stage 18 were completely understandable (trying to preserve the good name of a sport/race which he has dominated for six years due to his natural ability and hard work). 

So this really goes back to everyone's preconceptions about Lance's innocence or guilt. Like everyone else on this board I do not have the answer to this question. I can say I have marvelled at his success over the last six years, much like watching Michael Jordan over the latter part of his career (pre-Wizards of course!). That is, I'm not the biggest fan of the athlete and would just as soon see someone else win, but their complete and continual domination is impossible to not appreciate.


----------



## Miles E

carlos said:


> sure, lance never used any kind of performance enhancing substance.... the reason of his success is just trainning, his the only one on the whole world that knows how to train right


Sure...his the only one on the whole world that knows how to use drugs right.


----------



## Chainslap

Jdub said:


> Anyone know why the hell LA chased down Simeoni a little while ago? WHat was that all about?


This answer is easy...
they are in a bike race...
duh


----------



## AJS

> Deal with it all you nerds.


 
*nerd* - an insignificant student who is ridiculed as being affected or studying excessively


----------



## 633

Chainslap said:


> This answer is easy...
> they are in a bike race...
> duh


Exactly. They're in a bike race and Armstrong, like it or not, is the baddest bike racer on the block. Simeoni is SUING Armstrong for 100K Euros, and Armstrong seems to consider him a little weasel - maybe rightly, maybe wrongly. Unless any of us actually hang out with those guys, all we can do is speculate. But is says a lot to me to see Merckx and Hinault at the end of each stage congratulating the guy who's about to break their shared record. Somehow, I don't see them doing that for somebody they find despicable.

This isn't like school where we're more concerned with Johnny's "self-esteem" than we are with whether he can do math. This is professional sports. If a guy like Rodney Buford (Who? Sacramento Kings - 6 minutes, 1.9 points per game - about as relevant to the NBA as Simeoni is to the Tour) wants to talk trash to Shaq or Malone, he better stay out of the lane. I don't know whether Simeoni is telling the truth or not, but in the peloton, he's a yappy little puppy, and he done annoyed the big dog. If the big dog wants to exert his will, he's earned that right with his legs and his team. Anybody wants to contest that with him, they can drag their butt and their team out front and take their best shot.


----------



## blackhat

*yeah. the problem with that*



633 said:


> Exactly. They're in a bike race and Armstrong, like it or not, is the baddest bike racer on the block. Simeoni is SUING Armstrong for 100K Euros, and Armstrong seems to consider him a little weasel - maybe rightly, maybe wrongly. Unless any of us actually hang out with those guys, all we can do is speculate. But is says a lot to me to see Merckx and Hinault at the end of each stage congratulating the guy who's about to break their shared record. Somehow, I don't see them doing that for somebody they find despicable.
> 
> This isn't like school where we're more concerned with Johnny's "self-esteem" than we are with whether he can do math. This is professional sports. If a guy like Rodney Buford (Who? Sacramento Kings - 6 minutes, 1.9 points per game - about as relevant to the NBA as Simeoni is to the Tour) wants to talk trash to Shaq or Malone, he better stay out of the lane. I don't know whether Simeoni is telling the truth or not, but in the peloton, he's a yappy little puppy, and he done annoyed the big dog. If the big dog wants to exert his will, he's earned that right with his legs and his team. Anybody wants to contest that with him, they can drag their butt and their team out front and take their best shot.


is that simeoni apparently never said anything public about lance that could be construed by anyone reasonable as having "done annoyed the big dog"....you texans...so anyways, simeoni says the good dr ferarri sold to him and instructed him in ways to defeat doping controls. not unimaginable. then lance, for whatever reason that can't be good, says that no he doesn't think there's anything connecting ferarri to doping (!) and that simeoni must be fabricating his story. alrite then. so simeoni sues him. not unlike what LA is doing in regard to LA confidential-suing somene. so how any of this makes simeoni a bad guy, I have zero clue.


----------



## spankdoggie

Simeoni is a little girl. 

Where is his skirt and panty hose? Oh yeah, the skirt creates wind drag.


----------



## CT2

*Lance the merciless*

It is very simple. Simeoni is trying to get into Lance's pocket by sueing him. So Lance decide to return the favor by denieing him the opportunity to possibly win a stage. That is it plain and simple.


----------



## blackhat

*huh?*



CT2 said:


> It is very simple. Simeoni is trying to get into Lance's pocket by sueing him. So Lance decide to return the favor by denieing him the opportunity to possibly win a stage. That is it plain and simple.


so by that tortured logic, lance is "trying to get into the pocket of david walsh" as he's suing him for libel as well. either of them have a right to be heard by the court if they think they've been wronged. but they should resolve it in the court, not in a race. however, I still don't see how anything simeoni said should cause lance or his fanboys such angst.


----------



## russw19

russw19 said:


> What do you mean he won't let the race take place? As far as I could tell, there was 100 kilometers of racing taking place today.


I just wanted to add that I did think that what Lance did was on the tacky side, but it IS still racing. It just so happens that yesterday we got a little taste of what goes on everyday in the peloton. Not all of what goes on is glamorous and yesterday's fun and games just happened to play out in front of a worldwide TV audience. With the TV motorcycles everywhere all the time we sometimes get to see the side of cycling that isn't really intended for the viewing public to see. Riders peeing off the side of their bikes while flying down the road, Lemond's diarrhea incident in the late 80's, and Lance's chasing down Simeoni just because he doesn't like him, and he could. Stuff like that goes on all the time..... I am not saying it's good or bad... it just is. But it's part of the race, like it or not. I am not defending it, nor condemning it.... but it is part of racing in a professional environment.


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## Spunout

oKay, back to the original post: WTF was LA doing, and why, and was it a good move?



> *Etxebarrias not in agreement with Armstrong*
> On the morning after Stage 18, David Etxebarria (Euskaltel) commented on Armstrong's stage tactics in the Basque daily Deia with the simple headline - "You don't do these things".
> 
> Contrary to Armstrong's comments that he was protecting the peloton and that the peloton had congratulated him on his actions, Etxebarria thought that Armstrong's actions "were not to the liking of the peloton" and that a stage of the Tour was not a time to rectify any problems the race leader might have with Filippo Simeoni. Etxebarria commented that the "bad feeling was not followed by T-Mobile, the natural rival of Armstrong, who could have chased Armstrong...they only did it, timidly when the gap to the American was at two minutes".
> 
> Etxebarria continued, "There is in the peloton an unwritten rule according to which in stages like this that the cyclists who are down on the general can try and search for a stage victory, which in many cases provides them with a future. Armstrong did not respect this rule and it is something that a leader should do...next year he might need someone's help but the peloton does not forget these things."
> 
> Etxebarria didn't think much of Armstrong's antics, thinking that the "action of the American could have prejudiced the opportunities of the other riders who were in the break. The peloton respects Armstrong, like any cyclist that wins races, but these things provoke a feeling at times such that he will not end up being a rider loved and admired, for example, as occurred in the era of Indurain," he concluded.
> 
> Meanwhile, in another Basque daily, Gara, the other Etxebarria, Unai Etxebarria said that he "was surprised at what Armstrong did. It was a very ugly idea to go after Simeoni. The truth is that a man with a bit of class would not have done what he did and the peloton didn't like it one bit. It was something very sad."


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## Miles E

blackhat said:


> they should resolve it in the courtQUOTE]
> 
> Simeoni seems ready to resolve it out of court with his supposed offer to settle the matter for 100,000 Euros, which makes it pretty clear to me why he's in it. I believe Lance was suing to be able to add his side of the story to the book, not for a share of the profits or anything. And of course this matter is going to carry over to the race; having a money grubbing liar (while this may or may not be the case, it is undoubtedly Lance's perspective) take you to court is not easily overlooked just because you're on bicycles.


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## russw19

Spunout said:


> oKay, back to the original post: WTF was LA doing, and why, and was it a good move?


He was making sure a rider he has a personal beef with didn't get into a break that may have otherwise survived the day because he didn't want to see Simeoni have any chance of personal success in the Tour.

Was it a good move??? I would say no. For the negative PR that it has generated for a rider that is normally very good at positive PR... it wasn't the best thing he could do. But is it really that damaging to Lance...nope.


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## weiwentg

Miles E said:


> blackhat said:
> 
> 
> 
> they should resolve it in the courtQUOTE]
> 
> Simeoni seems ready to resolve it out of court with his supposed offer to settle the matter for 100,000 Euros, which makes it pretty clear to me why he's in it. I believe Lance was suing to be able to add his side of the story to the book, not for a share of the profits or anything. And of course this matter is going to carry over to the race; having a money grubbing liar (while this may or may not be the case, it is undoubtedly Lance's perspective) take you to court is not easily overlooked just because you're on bicycles.
> 
> 
> 
> uh, Simeoni has publicly stated that he'd donate the money to a charity. ironically enough, it's something related to cancer research.
Click to expand...


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## Ricky2

*Hope for Simeoni not Dope*



weiwentg said:


> uh, Simeoni has publicly stated that he'd donate the money to a charity. ironically enough, it's something related to cancer research.



EXACTLY! Good for Simeoni. And like him, I believe in hope. I believe in the will to survive. I believe in the fight against cancer. I do not believe in Lance Armstrong.


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## spankdoggie

You better start believing in 6 in a row.


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## weiwentg

Ricky2 said:


> EXACTLY! Good for Simeoni. And like him, I believe in hope. I believe in the will to survive. I believe in the fight against cancer. I do not believe in Lance Armstrong.


having come out of a rather serious auto accident (2 weeks in hospital and a month in a wheelchair), I wear that yellow bracelet because I have some appreciation of struggling to recover from sickness. I consider it a symbol of hope for cancer patients, and those who are recovering from other illnesses. I appreciate his determination, his tactical smarts, his hard training.
however, 6 Tour wins or no, I don't have much appreciation for Lance's character. before the Simeoni incident, I was rather troubled by his comments about Heras (not to mention him plus Sheryl Crow). after the Simeoni incident ... regardless of how many people hate Simeoni (and it was not the entire peloton), regardless of who is or is not on dope, or who has or has not confessed to using it, I think that Lance was acting like a schoolyard bully, and a lot of riders were acting like schoolkids. 
and I find it disturbing that so many people are jumping to defend Lance. they either say that a) he had every right to do what he did, or b) that whether or not he is a jerk is immaterial, since he's an athelete. I contest both assertions. a), I think has been covered by the minority of posters on this (and other) forums. b), our kids will see successful people and emulate them, to a greater or lesser extent. Lance is not the kind of example I want to pass on. I'd prefer people like Hamilton and Indurain. I can appreciate his sporting achievements, and his comeback from cancer, but that is all.


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## spankdoggie

weiwentg said:


> I think that Lance was acting like a schoolyard bully...
> and I find it disturbing that so many people are jumping to defend Lance.


Don't hate the player. ... HATE THE GAME. 

This dog photo is for Lance. Lance you are the man and an athlete. All the nerds that were picked last in school do not like you, but I love you man. I was the one that hit the fat kid hard with the dodgeball, just like you punked and clowned that nerd Simeoni. Good on you!

Enjoy the dog photo Lance!


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## Miles E

weiwentg said:


> uh, Simeoni has publicly stated that he'd donate the money to a charity. ironically enough, it's something related to cancer research.


I was not aware of that, but it only slightly changes the situation IMHO. Lance does not need to be coerced by litigation into sending his money to cancer research. It also does nothing to change the nature of this personal squabble vs. the professional indictment against Lance in LA Confidential.

Personal vandettas, whatever their origination, are part of sports. If we expected athletes to compete outside of the realm of emotion we could just hook them up to computrainers in labs and see who churns out the best numbers. Maybe Lance could have been the "bigger man" and let Simeoni go, but I think this was a perfectly acceptable (ie within the rules of the race) way to express his feelings on Simeoni.


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## AJS

> I can appreciate his sporting achievements, and his comeback from cancer, but that is all.


My feelings as well. In fact, his triumph over cancer is not that unusual nowadays - happens all the time.


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## weiwentg

Miles E said:


> I was not aware of that, but it only slightly changes the situation IMHO. Lance does not need to be coerced by litigation into sending his money to cancer research. It also does nothing to change the nature of this personal squabble vs. the professional indictment against Lance in LA Confidential.
> 
> Personal vandettas, whatever their origination, are part of sports. If we expected athletes to compete outside of the realm of emotion we could just hook them up to computrainers in labs and see who churns out the best numbers. Maybe Lance could have been the "bigger man" and let Simeoni go, but I think this was a perfectly acceptable (ie within the rules of the race) way to express his feelings on Simeoni.


the poster I replied to thought that Simeoni was just after Lance's money. now, he could certainly be after some attention, I don't know. but the point I was trying to make was that Simeoni probably isn't after money.
I expect athletes to show emotion. I also expect them not to be petty.


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## Hawayyan

*From Cycling News...*

On the morning after Stage 18, David Etxebarria (Euskaltel) commented on Armstrong's stage tactics in the Basque daily Deia with the simple headline - "You don't do these things". 

Contrary to Armstrong's comments that he was protecting the peloton and that the peloton had congratulated him on his actions, Etxebarria thought that Armstrong's actions "were not to the liking of the peloton" and that a stage of the Tour was not a time to rectify any problems the race leader might have with Filippo Simeoni. Etxebarria commented that the "bad feeling was not followed by T-Mobile, the natural rival of Armstrong, who could have chased Armstrong...they only did it, timidly when the gap to the American was at two minutes". 

Etxebarria continued, "There is in the peloton an unwritten rule according to which in stages like this that the cyclists who are down on the general can try and search for a stage victory, which in many cases provides them with a future. Armstrong did not respect this rule and it is something that a leader should do...next year he might need someone's help but the peloton does not forget these things." 

Etxebarria didn't think much of Armstrong's antics, thinking that the "action of the American could have prejudiced the opportunities of the other riders who were in the break. The peloton respects Armstrong, like any cyclist that wins races, but these things provoke a feeling at times such that he will not end up being a rider loved and admired, for example, as occurred in the era of Indurain," he concluded. 

Meanwhile, in another Basque daily, Gara, the other Etxebarria, Unai Etxebarria said that he "was surprised at what Armstrong did. It was a very ugly idea to go after Simeoni. The truth is that a man with a bit of class would not have done what he did and the peloton didn't like it one bit. It was something very sad." 



Looks like not everyone in the peloton was in agreement with Armstrongs actions!!! These seem like some pretty harsh words.


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## Ricky2

*Armstrong's Personal Vendettas*



Miles E said:


> I was not aware of that, but it only slightly changes the situation IMHO. Lance does not need to be coerced by litigation into sending his money to cancer research. It also does nothing to change the nature of this personal squabble vs. the professional indictment against Lance in LA Confidential.
> 
> Personal vandettas, whatever their origination, are part of sports. If we expected athletes to compete outside of the realm of emotion we could just hook them up to computrainers in labs and see who churns out the best numbers. Maybe Lance could have been the "bigger man" and let Simeoni go, but I think this was a perfectly acceptable (ie within the rules of the race) way to express his feelings on Simeoni.



Personal Vendettas? Damn dude! Have you even been following this?! Simeoni NEVER said **** about Armstrong and EPO! Simeoni did testify that Dr. Ferrari assisted himself and other riders to dope. Never once did he name Armstrong. Armstrong has a beef with it and attacks the guy in the press calling him a liar and a detriment to cycling. What an *******!

We're talking about a domestique (Simeoni) here who is struggling to make it and earn a living for his family. Unlike King Lance, domestiques like SImeoni don't get paid alot and often times retire from cycling only to work in construction or some other remedial job. Armstrong's personal attacks at Simeoni make it harder for a rider like that to get contracts to pursue his cycling career. So, hell yeah! Sue the **** out of Armstrong. Simeoni, wasn't even in it to make one single penny! It's a symbolic amount which was to be donated to charity and to vindicate his name. Remember, it was Armstrong who made the personal attacks at Simeoni, not the other way around. Armstrong's actions on the stage are totally despicable!


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## RiDE

Ricky2 said:


> Personal Vendettas? Damn dude! Have you even been following this?! Simeoni NEVER said **** about Armstrong and EPO! Simeoni did testify that Dr. Ferrari assisted himself and other riders to dope. Never once did he name Armstrong. Armstrong has a beef with it and attacks the guy in the press calling him a liar and a detriment to cycling. What an *******!
> 
> We're talking about a domestique (Simeoni) here who is struggling to make it and earn a living for his family. Unlike King Lance, domestiques like SImeoni don't get paid alot and often times retire from cycling only to work in construction or some other remedial job. Armstrong's personal attacks at Simeoni make it harder for a rider like that to get contracts to pursue his cycling career. So, hell yeah! Sue the **** out of Armstrong. Simeoni, wasn't even in it to make one single penny! It's a symbolic amount which was to be donated to charity and to vindicate his name. Remember, it was Armstrong who made the personal attacks at Simeoni, not the other way around. Armstrong's actions on the stage are totally despicable!


Do you always swear everytime you state your opinion?  I don't know whats behind all those asterisks but I think it takes away from your credibility at presenting your argument in a mature way. People who usually cuss a lot during an argument are very biased and are not very objective. Sorry that's just how I see it. There's nothing wrong with your opinion or what you think of Lance, but the way you bring it out just doesn't sound very convincing.


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## spankdoggie

RiDE said:


> Do you always swear everytime you state your opinion?  I don't know whats behind all those asterisks but I think it takes away from your credibility at presenting your argument in a mature way. People who usually cuss a lot during an argument are very biased and are not very objective. Sorry that's just how I see it. There's nothing wrong with your opinion or what you think of Lance, but the way you bring it out just doesn't sound very convincing.


Simeoni is a little b!tch.


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## CFBlue

*Class*

Armstrong has done much for cancer research donations through his Foundation. Too bad, he behaves the way he does and acts like a classless herk. Armstrong was the 1st to cast a stone at Simeoni for testifying to the Italian courts that doping is a widespread problem in the sport which garnered Simeoni his share of backbiting from the peloton. Armstrong is a multiple Tour winner, but not a champion.


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## Jdub

*Mediocrity will rule!!!*



Ricky2 said:


> Personal Vendettas? Damn dude! Have you even been following this?! Simeoni NEVER said **** about Armstrong and EPO! Simeoni did testify that Dr. Ferrari assisted himself and other riders to dope. Never once did he name Armstrong. Armstrong has a beef with it and attacks the guy in the press calling him a liar and a detriment to cycling. What an *******!
> 
> We're talking about a domestique (Simeoni) here who is struggling to make it and earn a living for his family. Unlike King Lance, domestiques like SImeoni don't get paid alot and often times retire from cycling only to work in construction or some other remedial job. Armstrong's personal attacks at Simeoni make it harder for a rider like that to get contracts to pursue his cycling career. So, hell yeah! Sue the **** out of Armstrong. Simeoni, wasn't even in it to make one single penny! It's a symbolic amount which was to be donated to charity and to vindicate his name. Remember, it was Armstrong who made the personal attacks at Simeoni, not the other way around. Armstrong's actions on the stage are totally despicable!




Man am I glad I don't live in the world of mediocrity that you guys would create if you got everything you wished. 

The guy is better than enyone else

The guy might have done drugs... you and i don't know

Simeoni is a cry baby (who by the way should be willing to deal with the consequences of being a cry baby, but then again cry babies never are)

Lance is a tough guy punk that has the capability to b!tch slap anyone right now

The world is unfair ... suck it up.


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## AJS

Does that make you feel better - the ends justify the means? Any advantage you can get is OK as long as you win. 'Nice guys' finish last, as sissy's should, because they want to follow the rules and don't go for "b!tch slapping" people?

Maybe you've been in the U.S. for too long - try living in England for awhile. Those sissy's do pretty well it seems without having to resort to the baser aspects of being a Texas *******. Having class doesn't make you a cry-baby.


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## Jdub

*You need some perspective here*



AJS said:


> Does that make you feel better - the ends justify the means? Any advantage you can get is OK as long as you win. 'Nice guys' finish last, as sissy's should, because they want to follow the rules and don't go for "b!tch slapping" people?
> 
> Maybe you've been in the U.S. for too long - try living in England for awhile. Those sissy's do pretty well it seems without having to resort to the baser aspects of being a Texas *******. Having class doesn't make you a cry-baby.



Listen, you need to understand some background here and maybe you can appreciate where I'm coming from.

I am by no means a red neck texan trust me. I'm also not the kind of guy that always won. In fact I never won. I was the little dork that was always picked last. I work my @ss off though and generally end up somewhere in the middle of most things. 

To paraphrase Al Franken

Economics should be conservative
Government should be liberal
and Sports should be conservative

Great things never come from mediocrity. I rather live in a world with great things than a world of mediocrity.


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## cyclejim

*Oh great*



AJS said:


> Does that make you feel better - the ends justify the means? Any advantage you can get is OK as long as you win. 'Nice guys' finish last, as sissy's should, because they want to follow the rules and don't go for "b!tch slapping" people?
> 
> Maybe you've been in the U.S. for too long - try living in England for awhile. Those sissy's do pretty well it seems without having to resort to the baser aspects of being a Texas *******. Having class doesn't make you a cry-baby.


Is there something inherently wrong with being in the US too long? Trying to understand your statement here.


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## Ricky2

*Lance = crybaby*



Jdub said:


> Simeoni is a cry baby (who by the way should be willing to deal with the consequences of being a cry baby, but then again cry babies never are)
> 
> Lance is a tough guy punk that has the capability to b!tch slap anyone right now
> 
> The world is unfair ... suck it up.



If anybody is the crybaby, it's Lance who's *****ing like a little elementary brat about Simeoni in the 1st place. Lance needs tpo deal with consequences of being a crybaby if he's going to act like one.


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## Jdub

*Seriously ... relax*



Ricky2 said:


> If anybody is the crybaby, it's Lance who's *****ing like a little elementary brat about Simeoni in the 1st place. Lance needs tpo deal with consequences of being a crybaby if he's going to act like one.



Do you know how to write and have an argument without using expletives. I don't say this in jest. When you write like that it does not strengthen your argument it weakens it. It makes you appear emotional and illiterate. Not logical and persuasive, which is how one makes effective arguments. 

Chill out man. We're just having a discussion here. It's not like anything of any significance will be decided based on this discussion.


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## Miles E

Ricky2 said:


> Personal Vendettas? Damn dude! Have you even been following this?!


Yes, dude!?! I didn't make any mention of Simeoni having a vandetta against Lance (they can be one sided you know), you just assumed that. In your haste to continually condemn Lance you forget that others may actually try to take a more objective approach in their view of the situation.

Like I said before, if Lance is guilty his behavior is to be expected, and shutting out one small time domestique is nothing compared to fleecing the world for the last six years. If he is clean and Simeoni is a liar then he is just doing everyone a favor.

Speaking of personal vandettas, anyone else ready to move on to Ricky3?


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## FatSlowGuy

.....or maybe Lance knew that Simeoni was the only rider in the Tour that had a chance to take the yellow jersey away. Spending all those years pretending to be a mediocre pro only to dazzle the cyclingj world with his bravery in the 101st Tour. Lance obviously has spies around and knew of these tactics well in advance and decicded to squash the guy before he had a chance. Further proof is that of Cipo who did not want him on the Tour team, because he knows that Simeoni being a far superior climber and time trialist could also out sprint a top fuel dragster and did not want to be over shadowed by a domestique.

....either that or Simeoni is a little girlyman.


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