# Makes you wonder what the markup is



## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)




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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

map (advertised price) on that bike is $2039.99
msrp is $1849.99
they are NOT making any profit selling it at that price. none. they are in fact losing money on that deal. trust me, i just looked it up. you don't have any idea how hard it is to be profitable in the bike business these days.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Quaalude said:


> In your opinion, what will it take to turn around the bike business? Open ended question. People, the LBS, have to be able to turn a profit. What are the issues right now? Thanks..


the one thing that hurts bike shops here the most are the online sellers overseas that dump product for what our wholesale is, or less. for instance, how can i sell a shimano dura-ace crank for it's msrp of $659.99 when our customer can spend 5mins online and find it for $200.00 less? as soon as shimano started shipping the new 9000 stuff, the online sellers started blowing out their stock of 7900. i don't stock much of it, if any, because our suppliers are so quick to get it to us. but...they haven't lowered their prices at all. we end up in this situation where the online retailers who have virtually no overhead compared to an actual bike shop can sell parts at deeply discounted prices and still make some profit, and i can't even afford to get the part to my shop for what my customer can get it delivered to his doorstep.


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## lego2304 (Oct 19, 2012)

When it comes to my house, I am a DIYer and will shop for the best price on products I am going to install vs. buying at the big boxes typically because they lack knowledge and service. If I do go to a big box and find someone helpful and providing service, I tend to buy "from them", even though the profit is still going to the big corporate/stockholders.
With LBSs, in my area I tend to know either the owner or at least the managers that this is there carrer and how they support their family. I do tend to buy from them because I know what it is supporting and they are part of my community. It must be tough to be an LBS with the internet and low ball pricing. I think some people will buy only the bike from the LBS and then buy the rest online so I can understand the "need" for a higher mark up on bikes. But for those that do purchase the bike and then all the accessories, I would hope the LBS can show appreciation to those customers. And I am not just talking about giving a break on pricing. Have you ever heard of a LBS offering to pick up or drop off your bike at your house before or after service? Have they ever gave you notice of a slow time in their shop so that you could get your bike in for service without a long wait? 

Maybe there is a thread elsewhere, but is Performance Bikes considered an LBS?

My 2 cents.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

we've done the pick up/drop off for a select few customers, but that is something i would consider 'above and beyond' the call of duty. really, how hard is it to get the bike in to the shop? if you can't get by the shop during the week because of work hours, drop it off on the weekend. 
you think we should off the service as well as offer them a discount? really? maybe we should go their homes and pump up their tires as well. we are VERY customer service oriented...we're 2 small shops (well, 1 small one and 1 med one) that have been around a while. we know the majority of our customers by name and have built relationships w/ them. we offer full fittings w/ every bike purchase, w/ some free follow-up if needed. we don't have an advertised 'free new bike tune-up' but we make sure that every bike buyer knows that we'll take care of them for a while free of charge. a quick shifting adjustment, or wheel true on a bike they've had for a few months won't cost them a penny. we also let them know that they will definitely need to have the bike serviced and what it will cost. 
we don't offer any discount to customers on any other purchase they make, but we provide the best customer service that any of them have ever had. do you ask for a discount at the supermarket you buy food from every week? or the local gas station? 

i would not generally consider PB to be a 'local' shop. sure, they have a store front, but the company that owns it is giant, and does a ton of internet business. i don't know about you, but finding even a minimally knowledgeable employee at Performance is virtually impossible. 
the least experienced employee at both of our shops still has years in the industry, compared to weeks or months. that is definitely worth something, which i think is the msrp on the bike.


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

I have a great LBS and wish I had more $ to spend there.

CX - you don't have any idea how hard it is to be profitable in the bike business these days.

It's not just the bicycle biz.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

threebikes said:


> I have a great LBS and wish I had more $ to spend there.
> 
> CX - you don't have any idea how hard it is to be profitable in the bike business these days.
> 
> It's not just the bicycle biz.


i'm sure you're right about that three! i'm glad you've found a good shop that you're comfortable with, it's a surprisingly hard thing to do.


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## gbh (Dec 10, 2012)

Man, I'd use an LBS that did pick up and drop off, even if they charged significantly more.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

My problem with LBS is that (whether or not due to the situation with the competition they get from the internet) most of them are *******s, especially if your bike wasn't purchased with them. Pushing customers to buy, no knowledge of components/accessories, overpricing on MSRP, etc, etc...Like you said cxwrench, it's difficult to find one you can trust. 

Once you do however, you can build a really good relationship and have a much more fulfilling experience shopping for bike parts than you would on the internet. I've actually seen quite a few blowout sales like this from bike shops who have extra bikes from previous years lying around and are truly trying to help customers find a bargain. 
Support your (friendly) LBS.


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## love4himies (Jun 12, 2012)

lego2304 said:


> When it comes to my house, I am a DIYer and will shop for the best price on products I am going to install vs. buying at the big boxes typically because they lack knowledge and service. If I do go to a big box and find someone helpful and providing service, I tend to buy "from them", even though the profit is still going to the big corporate/stockholders.
> With LBSs, in my area I tend to know either the owner or at least the managers that this is there carrer and how they support their family. I do tend to buy from them because I know what it is supporting and they are part of my community. It must be tough to be an LBS with the internet and low ball pricing. I think some people will buy only the bike from the LBS and then buy the rest online so I can understand the "need" for a higher mark up on bikes. But for those that do purchase the bike and then all the accessories, I would hope the LBS can show appreciation to those customers. And I am not just talking about giving a break on pricing. Have you ever heard of a LBS offering to pick up or drop off your bike at your house before or after service? Have they ever gave you notice of a slow time in their shop so that you could get your bike in for service without a long wait?
> 
> Maybe there is a thread elsewhere, but is Performance Bikes considered an LBS?
> ...


Actually my local one does and there are several in the area that are offering that service:

T.I. Cycle BTW, the Brockville-Kingston pick up service is a 50km radius.

I think it's a wonderful service.


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> i can't even afford to get the part to my shop for what my customer can get it delivered to his doorstep.


haha.. Man this guy makes me laugh. The intertubes... Is that thing still around? How old are you? 90?

What a load of rubbish... If my quoted section is the case, why don't you buy it from these retailers rather than the supplier? The Internet is not going away, find a way to adapt. Or, if you can't, close, that's the natural order of not just bike shops, but life. Survival of the fittest, evolution of the shop front.

Also, the argument that the customer service is worth paying full retail is simply ridiculous. I don't want to pay more than the shop a suburb over for COMMON HUMAN DECENCY. Wake up. You're in a customer service business... Being friendly/helpful/kind/knowledgable is expected - you want me to pay for that, and the full price of the bike. Really?

Thank the higher powers for wiggle and my average brain for the ability to wrench on my own machine. There is nothing the average person can't do by way of maintenance and general repairs... They are simple machines after all.

in all seriousness, the only way you will compete with the Internet is to lower your price. Service and buying local doesn't mean enough to the majority.. Only the minority. And the minority rarely comes out on top.


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## Captainlip (Oct 24, 2012)

what utter load of tosh!!! you are the simple reason local bike shops along with its convenience over the web are dying off, its customers that you that dont deserve a local bike shop when you need that spare in a hurry.

If you knew anything about trek you cannot and should not be able to get them online as trek are instore only aas trek do the decent thing for the shops. How do you expect the store to find alternative supply for there bikes.


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## threebikes (Feb 1, 2009)

Captainlip - the pic I posted was from the LBS web site. It's a in store deal.
They will not ship it.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

I wouldn't go quite as far as saying "Trek is doing the decent thing for shops." You know, what with all the product control on what they can and can't sell...

All manufacturers only want profit, just like the consumer generally only wants savings. The problem of the bike shop with the advent of the internet is that it allows us to see just how much value the majority of people put on "customer service:" and the answer is, not a lot. It's unfortunate, and certainly not everyone is as opinionated as SpezTrek, but he has the truth of it that only a minority of people truly appreciate the efforts that go into providing service at a bike shop, and I would add that for this minority of people in a lot of places there is an over-saturation of bike shops, which makes it even harder to be profitable.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

SpezTrek said:


> haha.. Man this guy makes me laugh. The intertubes... Is that thing still around? How old are you? 90?
> 
> What a load of rubbish... If my quoted section is the case, why don't you buy it from these retailers rather than the supplier? The Internet is not going away, find a way to adapt. Or, if you can't, close, that's the natural order of not just bike shops, but life. Survival of the fittest, evolution of the shop front.
> 
> ...


i could really rip you apart on this, but i'm just going to leave it at this...you obviously don't work in the bike industry and while you're entitled to your opinion (no matter how asinine) you don't have a clue.


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## samh (May 5, 2004)

Well I don't bike bikes at stores, I think buying tires/tubes there is good idea,
if you have a problem (impossible to ride without working tire/tube) they can
help you, that's where you need a human


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

You want good service? Spend $10,000 at your LBS in the past 3 years. 
They give me their best price because they know that I'll be back.


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

I buy my bikes from my lbs. In fact I've got a relationship with the owner now that I simply assume I get 20% current model Specialized and Trek bikes. But accessories - forget it. For example Di2 systems for $2k? I can get it from wiggle 500 less. That's a big big difference. One I'm not going to pay. If he wants me to buy the smaller stuff, you need to meet the consumer a little my side of half way to sway me to purchase from you.


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> i could really rip you apart on this, but i'm just going to leave it at this...you obviously don't work in the bike industry and while you're entitled to your opinion (no matter how asinine) you don't have a clue.


Sorry. No you couldn't rip me apart about this. I do have a clue - the problem between you and I is that I am actually one of the 'cluey' customers that doesn't buy into your bull - or feel sorry for your poor mouth stories. 

Again the issue here is that I am the new majority. I'm one of the 'new' customers increasingly using store fronts to do research only to get the items online at up to 50% off. I am one of the majority that is making it increasingly difficult to own a bicycle store. Educated, middle-class, grown up with the internet and couldn't give a damn if you know my name when I walk in your store. You're not a barber shop, and this ain't the 50s. And one thing is for sure, I ain't paying for the 'pleasure' of your service as you seem to think I should. Just the tone of the way you speak about your customers here let's me know that I'd never give you my money. You think you are doing your customers the biggest favor in the world to offer them good service, yet you have the gall to factor that into your pricing? If you are as inflexiable with regard to pricing as you alude to in your previous post - perhaps a rethink of your business model is in order if times are tough? Here's a thought... what can you replace: the stock? or the customer? Let the customer walk for 10-20% off list price? That is just insane, and you deserve for your store to be doing it tough.

Alas, there will always be bike shops, but the saturation of one in every suburb (or second suburb - as the case is here in Sydney, Australia) is slowly evening out to a more sustainable level. That is the natural order of life.

I'll say it again, the internet has the fastest growing businesses around. They ain't going anywhere. It is only going to get tougher. Adapt.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm interested in cxwrench's reply. I'm pretty much in agreement with what you said in terms of the emergence of the new class of road cyclists, but I'd be interested to know if they actually make most of a bike shop's buisness, and whether other types of customers (mtb, hybrids, etc...) have the same tendency to go online. 

Even then, the internet will never replace the convenience of a bike shop or the mechanics who can do repairs for you. The bike shop I go to next to where I live has similarly overpriced components, but the quality of the service and the cheap & well done mechanical work often push me to buy stuff I could easily get for more expensive on the internet at the shop, to "support the LBS." Sometimes a more complicated repair I could do at home I will still bring over to the shop, just to see them do it well and have a good discussion. Call me an idiot, but I'm sure plenty of people do the same. 
I still agree with you that overall, at least in road cycling, I can't see how bike shops can keep their margins with the rise of the internet generation. But there's more to it than that.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

SpezTrek said:


> Sorry. No you couldn't rip me apart about this. I do have a clue - the problem between you and I is that I am actually one of the 'cluey' customers that doesn't buy into your bull - or feel sorry for your poor mouth stories.
> 
> Again the issue here is that I am the new majority. *I'm one of the 'new' customers increasingly using store fronts to do research only to get the items online at up to 50% off. I am one of the majority that is making it increasingly difficult to own a bicycle store. Educated, middle-class, grown up with the internet and couldn't give a damn if you know my name when I walk in your store.* You're not a barber shop, and this ain't the 50s. And one thing is for sure, I ain't paying for the 'pleasure' of your service as you seem to think I should. Just the tone of the way you speak about your customers here let's me know that I'd never give you my money. You think you are doing your customers the biggest favor in the world to offer them good service, yet you have the gall to factor that into your pricing? If you are as inflexiable with regard to pricing as you alude to in your previous post - perhaps a rethink of your business model is in order if times are tough? Here's a thought... what can you replace: the stock? or the customer? Let the customer walk for 10-20% off list price? That is just insane, and you deserve for your store to be doing it tough.
> 
> ...


so bike shops are just supposed to provide you w/ their expertise (because you don't know what you need, or how to actually do the job, correct?) for FREE, and then not care when you go and buy the parts off the internet? if you're the model for the 'new' customer, i can do w/o your 'business'. i'll gladly fix any mistakes you might make, and that'll always be at full pop, not the discounted rate i might offer return customers i've built a relationship with. as for my bad attitude...customers that aren't bottom feeders and internet-buying time wasters don't ever see it. they get what a bike shop is supposed to provide. excellent service, on time, no mistakes, everything works. at a reasonable price. what more are we supposed to do? if you could do every single repair successfully and never need to set foot in a bike shop, then fine...buy all your parts from the internet. yes, we miss your dollars but we'll live. added bonus: we don't have to deal w/ you taking up time we could spend w/ customers that would actually buy something from us. the whole idea of being in business is to make a profit. it's pretty damn small as it is, trust me. 



moskowe said:


> I'm interested in cxwrench's reply. I'm pretty much in agreement with what you said in terms of the emergence of the new class of road cyclists, but I'd be interested to know if they actually make most of a bike shop's buisness, and whether other types of customers (mtb, hybrids, etc...) have the same tendency to go online.
> 
> Even then, the internet will never replace the convenience of a bike shop or the mechanics who can do repairs for you. The bike shop I go to next to where I live has *similarly overpriced components*, but the quality of the service and the cheap & well done mechanical work often push me to buy stuff I could easily get for more expensive on the internet at the shop, to "support the LBS." Sometimes a more complicated repair I could do at home I will still bring over to the shop, just to see them do it well and have a good discussion. Call me an idiot, but I'm sure plenty of people do the same.
> I still agree with you that overall, at least in road cycling, I can't see how bike shops can keep their margins with the rise of the internet generation. But there's more to it than that.


'overpriced' is not the same as 'msrp'. we don't ever price above msrp. 
good question about the type of rider that seeks info then buys via the internet. it happens all the time w/ road and mountainbike riders as they tend to be more experienced and educated. they know the internet has many options for purchasing parts and accessories. hybrid buyers (generally) know very little and on top of that don't normally ride their bikes enough to actually need replacement parts.


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

Ok fair enough. We will agree to disagree.


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## moskowe (Mar 14, 2011)

Said bike shop has quite a few accessories (clothing, pumps, etc) over MSRP, which I find ridiculous. Components are at MSRP, and their bikes are usually 5-10% under MSRP. I don't know the extent to which that reflects how much profit they actually make over the products they sell, but I found it pretty interesting. 
I still consider MSRP overpriced. I know bike shops are only part of a wider system, but MSRPs on most bike stuff are crazy. 

Then again there's nothing quite like the death stare of the bike mechanic when you bring in your poorly assembled internet bike for fitting/repairs. Guilty as charged.


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## flatsix911 (Jun 28, 2009)

The truth ... Adapt or close


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

flatsix911 said:


> The truth ... Adapt or close


since you obviously have experience in this, why don't you tell me what we should do? given the following:

our cost on bikes, parts, and accessories has done nothing but rise. 
our rent, utilities, payroll, insurance and other costs of doing business will certainly not go down, either.
we can't advertise lower-than-msrp pricing for ANY current model bike. 
we can't even ship a new bike to a customer. 

please, explain what you mean by 'adapt'. i'm all ears.


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## PlatyPius (Feb 1, 2009)

SpezTrek said:


> haha.. Man this guy makes me laugh. The intertubes... Is that thing still around? How old are you? 90?
> 
> What a load of rubbish... If my quoted section is the case, why don't you buy it from these retailers rather than the supplier? The Internet is not going away, find a way to adapt. Or, if you can't, close, that's the natural order of not just bike shops, but life. Survival of the fittest, evolution of the shop front.
> 
> ...


I don't even know how to respond to something this ignorant...


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> i would not generally consider PB to be a 'local' shop. sure, they have a store front, but the company that owns it is *giant*, and does a ton of internet business.


Are you referring to GIANT as in the co. in Taichung Taiwan? or a LARGE corporate company?
I was once told that PB uses their deep pockets to gather up large quantities of last generation or 'soon to be' the last generation components (ala 7900) and then DUMP it on line to create traffic for their online site.

To you and Platy, I once read where the equivalent of the LBS (a consortium of shops) in Italy was taking legal action to try and change the way CRC.com was operating in the EU. I wonder what became of that?

And in a similar vane, do you think the U.S. Govt. will ever get involved and go after what could be described as unfair trade by EU online sellers? 
It almost seems that Shimano themselves would shut down EU online retailers from selling to the U.S.

I can't buy Mavic hard or soft goods and have it shipped to the U.S. 
I can't buy Gaerne shoes and have it shipped to the U.S., why doesn't Shimano follow suit?


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

PlatyPius said:


> I don't even know how to respond to something this ignorant...


Another imbecilic comment that adds nothing from a bike shop owner with no answer.


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## Captainlip (Oct 24, 2012)

Fuc*in kids on this forum.


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

SpezTrek said:


> Another imbecilic comment that adds nothing from a bike shop owner with no answer.





Captainlip said:


> Fuc*in *kids* on this forum.


Is that an Australian billy goat?


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

Moved


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## SpezTrek (Dec 31, 2012)

metoou2 said:


> And in a similar vane, do you think the U.S. Govt. will ever get involved and go after what could be described as unfair trade by EU online sellers?
> It almost seems that Shimano themselves would shut down EU online retailers from selling to the U.S.


Yeah, because Shimano wants to wrap you in a blanket and tell you everything is going to be alright - hold in there little guy! I seriously think the majority of you are trolls. Or you have the brain of a billy goat perhaps, champ? You must be delusional if you think Shimano (I'll use Shimano as an example, but goes for any other company who sells online) cares about anything beyond profit? How many cassettes/chains/cranks/groups/etc is their only (ONLY) concern. Do you think they will try and kill off such a lucrative market? Seriously, WTF are you thinking! Shimano care about their bottom line - about turnover and profit. Not the LBS. The LBS is just a middle man, like any other online store. LBS owners and workers seem to have a sick sense of their worth to these bike companies - while they are making record profits off the back of online sellers, you are going out of business. How about the LBS grouping together to force Shimano/Trek/Specialized/etc etc to giving you a better price for your storefront? Yeah, that's right, it would never happen! 

See, this is a classic case of looking at things from a different point of view - and those with a vested interest, that being the LBS owners/workers, have blinders on to what is reality. I understand that, you don't want to lose your livelihood - who does? 

But... I'll say it again, maybe it will get through, Shimano doesn't need as many storefronts pushing their product anymore. This is a fact you cannot escape from. Notice I say "as many" as there will always be LBS's, but the saturation of them in the market place is being superseded by online retailers who do things cheaper, more conveniently, and often just as fast. 

While many of you don't like what I have to say, I have to add that none of you have a reasonable response to my statements beyond giving me bad rep or saying something along the lines of "blah blah blah I don't even know where to start with how wrong this is... ignorant... blah blah blah". Grow up. You have no response, because you know that there is inherent truth in what I say - online sales are killing your business (fact). LBS's are closing (fact). More and more people are buying online (fact). It's increasingly difficult to make money as an LBS (fact). How is what I am saying contradicting anything you have yourself said? I'm just not sugarcoating the reality that you need to either adapt... or go out of business. And it is not my place, or anyone else here, to tell you how to fix your failing business. Perhaps facing reality would help though?


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## metoou2 (Mar 18, 2009)

SpezTrek said:


> Another imbecilic comment that adds nothing from a bike shop owner with no answer.


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderators Note*



SpezTrek said:


> Yeah, because Shimano wants to wrap you in a blanket and tell you everything is going to be alright - hold in there little guy! I seriously think the majority of you are trolls. Or you have the brain of a billy goat perhaps, champ? You must be delusional if you think Shimano (I'll use Shimano as an example, but goes for any other company who sells online) cares about anything beyond profit? How many cassettes/chains/cranks/groups/etc is their only (ONLY) concern. Do you think they will try and kill off such a lucrative market? Seriously, WTF are you thinking! Shimano care about their bottom line - about turnover and profit. Not the LBS. The LBS is just a middle man, like any other online store. LBS owners and workers seem to have a sick sense of their worth to these bike companies - while they are making record profits off the back of online sellers, you are going out of business. How about the LBS grouping together to force Shimano/Trek/Specialized/etc etc to giving you a better price for your storefront? Yeah, that's right, it would never happen!
> 
> See, this is a classic case of looking at things from a different point of view - and those with a vested interest, that being the LBS owners/workers, have blinders on to what is reality. I understand that, you don't want to lose your livelihood - who does?
> 
> ...


Say goodbye.


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