# Delrin Cup problem with S-Works Crankset



## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

I have an SL4 Sworks with 2 Sworks cranksets - compact and standard.

Recently I noticed some slight play in the compact crankset, so my Specialized centre added some fine plastic washers that eliminated the play.

But today I noticed that the play is back, so I took out the crankset to find that the drive side Delrin cup is very loose, so much so that it comes out with the crank and goes in and out of the BB shell very easily.

The non-drive side is firmly installed. The bearings are tightly installed in each and seem OK. (Ceramic)

So I think the play is coming not from a lack of side washers, but from the cup itself. And yet, the cup is a non-wear part - it should not wear out.

Any ideas? Should I get a new cup and hope it fits in tighter? Or is my frame's BB shell out of spec? New frame please?!


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

Searching online, I found this;

http://service.specialized.com/asc/Content/Tech Pubs/Technical Bulletins/TB0433_revA.pdf

Seems Specialized have owned up to a bit of a mistake, and are now saying to glue the Delrin cups in with epoxy. So I'll be asking my dealer for a new cup, and the special glue.


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

Question is, will you ever be able to get those Delrin cups back out?!!


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

You should read through the very long threads in this section about the S-works cranks and bottom bracket. 

Yes, Spesh says somehow even when you epoxy the cups into the frame, you will still be able to knock them back out. Not sure how that works, but I'd rather not try it. 

Google or search on here for C-bear.


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks.
I did read through that long post 'Horrendous noise from BB' or whatever, and it's very useful.
I have 2 sets of Sworks cranks now so I need to stick with that, for better or for worse.
I have never had any noises from my cranksets, just a little play.
I hope Spesh sort this out properly for me as if you're paying $2500 for a frame, and $500 the crankset you kind of expect it work.
My fear is that even a new Delrin cup may be quite loose in my BB. 
Then what? Lots of glue and hope for the best? Or should I be demanding a new frame?


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

My BB is nice and quiet and the cups are tight, thank Dog. I was having some play issues, but removed the three bolt adjuster and went back to the wave washer, plus a few additional spacers. All is quiet. 

But just reading the bulletin and that dumbass video really steams my clams. 

ENOUGH of this nonsense with new workarounds and glue and loctite and epoxy, on and on. 

GO BACK TO THREADED BBs ALREADY.

And not for nothing, Spesh...if you are going to say that all bikes should have this procedure done, then do a formal recall. Its YOUR flawed design.....YOU pay for parts and labor the fix.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

RkFast said:


> And not for nothing, Spesh...if you are going to say that all bikes should have this procedure done, then do a formal recall. Its YOUR flawed design.....YOU pay for parts and labor the fix.


I agree with your comments and agree that they should do way more to fix this problem besides little tech bulletins to the shops (aluminum cups). 

That being said, my LBS has rebuilt my BB at least 3 times and even replaced the ceramic bearings once and I haven't paid a dime. I bought the bike there and it's an inherent problem with the bike, so no reason they shouldn't do it for free.


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

What worries me is that I am clearly the 1st SL4 (or Venge) owner to contact this Specialized centre which covers all of NW France - many owners will simply ride around unaware that they have play in their BB, which will get worse with time.

Surely Specialized should contact them, not wait for them to notice?

I paid alot of $$$ extra to get a top end frame - I could have bought Canyon, Giant, Planet X, etc. alot cheaper and pretty similar spec. I chose to pay more for the reassurance of top design and quality control.

And yet, I feel that Specialized has really dropped the ball on this one and is not taking it seriously enough. Of course they should rebuild your BB and replace parts for free; if it isn't working right that is the least they could do.

My SPesh dealer is 250km away, so a 500km round trip. This is seriously inconvenient for me. They are sending me new Delrin cups and a packet of glue. I can only hope it works well.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

bernithebiker said:


> What worries me is that I am clearly the 1st SL4 (or Venge) owner to contact this Specialized centre which covers all of NW France - many owners will simply ride around unaware that they have play in their BB, which will get worse with time.
> 
> Surely Specialized should contact them, not wait for them to notice?
> 
> ...


Im not thrille with having to do this, either. Like I said mine is good, but Ill probably go for the fix over the winter. 

With that said, I wouldnt worry TOO much. Ive seen manufacturers use similar fixes for other issues with bonding carbon frame to bearing races. My friend had an Ibis MTB, which is a REALLY nice frame and the top integrated bearing race worked loose and the fix the reccomended.....epoxy. And it worked well on a part that takes a hell of a pounding, too.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

I suspect this is the fix that's been used on the Pro Tour. But one difference is that they get to replace their frames every year ... I agree that Specialized need to step up and take care of this.


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## SprinterX (May 21, 2012)

I have a 2011 Tarmac SL3 with Ultegra 53/39 crank. I want to switch out to a compact gear set and was checking into pricing at my LBS. He had an S-works carbon mid compact crank (new take off from a buyer going campy) and offered it up pretty cheap saying it's the greatest crank ever. Said it would fit my SL3 frame with some adapters which I assume are these delron cups people are having trouble with. Being new to the cycling scene he captured my interest till I started reading about all these problems. 
I really like the weight reduction and claimed crank performance but am concerned I'll have issues. Are these really isolated incidents or a typical problem?
Is this crank set up worth it or should I just go with another Ultegra crank with the compact 50/34gearing?
Thanx for your input.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

It's a popular issue, but doesn't have anything to do with the crank itself. It's the plastic cups that the crank bearings fit into. 

If you buy the S-works crank, get the C-bear aluminum BB cups and bearings. My LBS is becoming a dealer and the manager at the shop is now running them on his SL4 Sworks Tarmac. I'll be putting the bb in my new SL4.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

dcorn said:


> It's a popular issue, but doesn't have anything to do with the crank itself. It's the plastic cups that the crank bearings fit into.
> 
> If you buy the S-works crank, get the C-bear aluminum BB cups and bearings. My LBS is becoming a dealer and the manager at the shop is now running them on his SL4 Sworks Tarmac. I'll be putting the bb in my new SL4.


While it doesn't have anything to do with the cranks, suggesting a C-bear alloy sleeve for Sprinter's Tarmac SL3 is ill advised. The C-bear sleeve is only relevant to Sworks bikes. The Tarmac SL3 is BB30 and not Spesh's version of narrow PF30 which use delrin bearings.
Sprinter...a Spesh crank is plug and play on your SL3 Tarmac...no delrin bushings...just basic BB30. On only a personal level...I am not a fan of the Spesh cranks. I don't like a removable spider. YMMV however and you may like one just fine.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> While it doesn't have anything to do with the cranks, suggesting a C-bear alloy sleeve for Sprinter's Tarmac SL3 is ill advised. The C-bear sleeve is only relevant to Sworks bikes. The Tarmac SL3 is BB30 and not Spesh's version of narrow PF30 which use delrin bearings.
> Sprinter...a Spesh crank is plug and play on your SL3 Tarmac...no delrin bushings...just basic BB30. On only a personal level...I am not a fan of the Spesh cranks. I don't like a removable spider. YMMV however and you may like one just fine.


He didn't specify S-works or not. And since he posted in the 'Delrin cup problem' thread, I'll just assume he's got the frame that uses the delrin cups. 

C-bear does have a spesh specific BB30 bearing setup as well...


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## SprinterX (May 21, 2012)

roadworthy said:


> While it doesn't have anything to do with the cranks, suggesting a C-bear alloy sleeve for Sprinter's Tarmac SL3 is ill advised. The C-bear sleeve is only relevant to Sworks bikes. The Tarmac SL3 is BB30 and not Spesh's version of narrow PF30 which use delrin bearings.
> Sprinter...a Spesh crank is plug and play on your SL3 Tarmac...no delrin bushings...just basic BB30. On only a personal level...I am not a fan of the Spesh cranks. I don't like a removable spider. YMMV however and you may like one just fine.


Hmmm. Pardon my ignorance on this subject but I thought my SL3 frame was the same as the SL3 S-works frame, at least that's what some guy with an S-works SL3 told me. I'm all new to learning the intricasies of these bikes but the LBS guy said I currently have these external threaded BB and I could run the S-works carbon crank by pressing in some adapters or whatever and then the different bearings. He had to check with his tech/mech but then confirmed my 2011 SL3 would accept this crank with this BB change.

Is he mistaken? 

Here,s my bike -> Specialized Bicycle Components It says "threaded BB".
I see in the S-works version here -> Specialized Bicycle Components it talks "OSBB. OS integrated, ceramic bearings". That's where this delron bushings and the probs occur right?

So it would appear the frames are different. Mine is FACT 10r where the S-works is Fact 11r. Even with these differences, are you saying I can simply remove my Ultegra Std crank and then easy/pleasy slide this S-works carbon baby right in using the original BB?

I'm just a 54 year old recreational rider who has taken a keen interest in cycling and want to get into better shape. I'd like to progress into longer Grand Fondo's, train further and maybe even try a race or two. We'll see how it goes. This take-off S-works carbon crank was available and while still priced a little higher than an Ultegra Compact set up I was willing to spend the $$ figuring this is quality, top shelf equipment. Being able to drop some 200 grams in the process is a bonus and two thumbs up in my book.

Again, thanx for the input.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

dcorn said:


> *He didn't specify S-works or not. And since he posted in the 'Delrin cup problem' thread, I'll just assume he's got the frame that uses the delrin cups.
> 
> *C-bear does have a spesh specific BB30 bearing setup as well...


No he didn't. As I suspected, he doesn't have a Sworks bike or delrin PF30 BB.
Most guys that own a Sworks bike call it an Sworks bike because they are proud of the pedigree.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

SprinterX said:


> Hmmm. Pardon my ignorance on this subject but I thought my SL3 frame was the same as the SL3 S-works frame, at least that's what some guy with an S-works SL3 told me. I'm all new to learning the intricasies of these bikes but the LBS guy said I currently have these external threaded BB and I could run the S-works carbon crank by pressing in some adapters or whatever and then the different bearings. He had to check with his tech/mech but then confirmed my 2011 SL3 would accept this crank with this BB change.
> 
> Is he mistaken?
> 
> ...


OK...I can help you out. The thing is, there is a lot of bad info about these bikes and even mechanics can get confused. You have a threaded BB on your 10r carbon SL3 Tarmac. Guess what? You really have the best BB and the 10r SL3 Tarmac is a great race bike. First, Spesh cranks will NOT mount to your bike. The spindle is too short. Spesh cranks are designed for either BB30 or Spesh version of PF30. The spindle is too short to mount to a threaded BB like you have and why your version of Tarmac is generally sold with Shimano cranks with external bearings. Here is the good news. For the $$ the Ultegra crankset is the best in the world. Durable and ultra stiff. Stick with it would be my recommendation for if you must have the best, go with a Dura Ace crank but you won't notice the difference really..
PS: I am older than you and all the best in your cycling endeavors.


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## SprinterX (May 21, 2012)

Just out at a different dealer and he's telling me I can't mount that crank in my frame either due the BB differences. Oh well, guess it wasn't meant to be. I'll chase down an ultegra compact set-up and call it good. Thanx all for the input and good fortune with your delron problems.


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## dcorn (Sep 1, 2011)

roadworthy said:


> No he didn't. As I suspected, he doesn't have a Sworks bike or delrin PF30 BB.
> Most guys that own a Sworks bike call it an Sworks bike because they are proud of the pedigree.


My bad, you must be better at reading minds over the internet. And now that I think about it, the SL3 S-works came in threaded BB and OSBB, soooo.... yeah.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

You could also look at the DA-7950 compact crank. It retails for about twice the price of the Ultegra version, but you might find it on close-out since DuraAce is moving to the next version. Functionally the differences are minimal (these are just cranks after all), but there's a weight saving that some consider worthwhile.


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## SprinterX (May 21, 2012)

Thanx for the help/suggestions guys and sorry for derailing the thread with my personal situ. Just pulled the trigger on an Ultegra FC 6750 G compact crank off ebay. Brand new, never mounted and shipped - all for $182. Seemed like a saweet deal to me.


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## c-bearusa.com (Dec 7, 2012)

roadworthy said:


> While it doesn't have anything to do with the cranks, suggesting a C-bear alloy sleeve for Sprinter's Tarmac SL3 is ill advised. The C-bear sleeve is only relevant to Sworks bikes. The Tarmac SL3 is BB30 and not Spesh's version of narrow PF30 which use delrin bearings.
> Sprinter...a Spesh crank is plug and play on your SL3 Tarmac...no delrin bushings...just basic BB30. On only a personal level...I am not a fan of the Spesh cranks. I don't like a removable spider. YMMV however and you may like one just fine.


C-Bear makes bottom brackets to fit virtually any crank in any frame. All solutions are based on our ceramic bearings, which are the only bearings world wide that are specifically designed for bicycle applications. 

The sleeve that is mentioned above is only to place a Campagnolo ultra torque crank in an OSBB frame. For Shimano, Specialized, GXP or BB30 we make different sets.

If you need any advise, we C-Bear has opened a US sales office this week. Feel free to contact us via email or through this forum.


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

c-bearusa.com said:


> C-Bear makes bottom brackets to fit virtually any crank in any frame. All solutions are based on our ceramic bearings, which are the only bearings world wide that are specifically designed for bicycle applications.
> 
> The sleeve that is mentioned above is only to place a Campagnolo ultra torque crank in an OSBB frame. For Shimano, Specialized, GXP or BB30 we make different sets.
> 
> If you need any advise, we C-Bear has opened a US sales office this week. Feel free to contact us via email or through this forum.


I do have a technical question for you please. It been established you make an alloy sleeve for the carbon shell OSBB Sworks bike with 46mm ID carbon hole. It has been talked about in length on this forum that the Specialized BB is a departure from industry standard PF30...being slightly narrower at 62mm. 

My question is....is the C-bear sleeve you developed for the Sworks bike identical to sleeves you suggest to convert industry std. PF30 bikes to a theaded BSA attachment? I was wondering if the sleeve you sell for the Sworks...if it is the same width as a standard PF30 sleeve you sell?
Thanks.


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## eekase (Nov 10, 2009)

The day I ordered my 2012 Specialized S-works SL4 frameset, I ordered C-bear Bottom Bracket cups (for New Sram Red) to fit my BB shell. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. They fit nice and snug, spin smooth, no play, creaks, etc  
Just looking at the plastic (delrin) adaptors that came with the frame...I was like..."really?"....uh, no.

FYI, I have also have a 2011 Tarmac S-works SL3, with a threaded BB. Why did they do away with that again 

To the OP, I'd bite the bullet and order the C-bear cups, but that's just me.


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## c-bearusa.com (Dec 7, 2012)

roadworthy said:


> I do have a technical question for you please. It been established you make an alloy sleeve for the carbon shell OSBB Sworks bike with 46mm ID carbon hole. It has been talked about in length on this forum that the Specialized BB is a departure from industry standard PF30...being slightly narrower at 62mm.
> 
> My question is....is the C-bear sleeve you developed for the Sworks bike identical to sleeves you suggest to convert industry std. PF30 bikes to a theaded BSA attachment?
> I was wondering if the sleeve you sell for the Sworks...if it is the same width as a standard PF30 sleeve you sell?
> Thanks.


For standard PF30 frames we have a separate set of bottom brackets:
- currently if you want to put an ultra torque crank on a PF30 frame, we sell the proprietary cups of campagnolo with our bearings. A new solution is in the making, we are currently testing it with Andre Greipel. If it is good enough for him, it is good enough for most of us.
- for using a shimano or GXP crank set on PF30 frame, we have a set that does not use threaded cups at all. We believe in fewer parts with premium materials and design.
https://www.c-bear.com/image_product/b_pf30-24g.gif

I hope this answers your question.
Ard


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## roadworthy (Nov 11, 2011)

c-bearusa.com said:


> For standard PF30 frames we have a separate set of bottom brackets:
> - currently if you want to put an ultra torque crank on a PF30 frame, we sell the proprietary cups of campagnolo with our bearings. A new solution is in the making, we are currently testing it with Andre Greipel. If it is good enough for him, it is good enough for most of us.
> - for using a shimano or GXP crank set on PF30 frame, we have a set that does not use threaded cups at all. We believe in fewer parts with premium materials and design.
> https://www.c-bear.com/image_product/b_pf30-24g.gif
> ...


Thanks for your response and good luck with development of further BB solutions.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

Has anyone done the epoxy fix Spesh mentions? I heard that its something I *SHOULD* do, but my bike is dead quiet....no play. I pulled the cranks...delrin cups are tight and bearing wear is minimal. So why make a change? 

Im firmly in the "if it aint broke" camp here...but if Spesh is saying this is something I NEED to do, no matter what, maybe I should consider. 

Or just get the C-Bear.


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

RkFast said:


> Has anyone done the epoxy fix Spesh mentions? I heard that its something I *SHOULD* do, but my bike is dead quiet....no play. I pulled the cranks...delrin cups are tight and bearing wear is minimal. So why make a change?
> 
> Im firmly in the "if it aint broke" camp here...but if Spesh is saying this is something I NEED to do, no matter what, maybe I should consider.
> 
> Or just get the C-Bear.


I've done it. It's fairly simple to do, but I only did it because my delrin cup was loose. If it hadn't been I wouldn't have bothered. Just get the kit from Specialized (it's free), and keep an eye on your cups. If ever they look like moving, slap some glue on them!


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

bernithebiker said:


> I've done it. It's fairly simple to do, but I only did it because my delrin cup was loose. If it hadn't been I wouldn't have bothered. Just get the kit from Specialized (it's free), and keep an eye on your cups. If ever they look like moving, slap some glue on them!



This is probably what Im going to do, unless they insist I do it. My cranks are out right now and I just reinspected the cups. They aint moving. Rock solid. Thank God.

What did you use for a press? From the video in the bulletin, it looks like I need some special tools.


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## bernithebiker (Sep 26, 2011)

RkFast said:


> This is probably what Im going to do, unless they insist I do it. My cranks are out right now and I just reinspected the cups. They aint moving. Rock solid. Thank God.
> 
> What did you use for a press? From the video in the bulletin, it looks like I need some special tools.


Yeah, my non-drive side was very nicely in place, so I didn't glue that one, just the drive side, which was so loose it practically fell out.

If you glue your original cups back in, they will have the bearings already in place in them, so you shouldn't really need a tool, just lightly tap them in if need be.

However, if like me you used new cups (I asked Spesh for them to be sure I had good ones), then you need to extract the bearing from the old cup, and press the bearing into the new cup.

Fortunately I have a headset press, that I had to modify slightly, that I used to press the bearing in. 

But I doubt most owners would be able to do this, so best to let your dealer do it.


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## c-bearusa.com (Dec 7, 2012)

We have chosen to make a solution that has the correct fit for the OSBB standard and execute it in premium materials: aluminum cups with pre pressed ceramic bearings. This reduces the amount of parts and potential creaking points.

This is a better solution than making a semi permanent bond between the frame and a plastic cup.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

c-bearusa.com said:


> We have chosen to make a solution that has the correct fit for the OSBB standard and execute it in premium materials: aluminum cups with pre pressed ceramic bearings. This reduces the amount of parts and potential creaking points.
> 
> This is a better solution than making a semi permanent bond between the frame and a plastic cup.


You aren't reducing any parts, you are replacing the delrin cup with an aluminum cup, same number of parts.

if the delrin cup with bearing is spinning, i would have to guess the aluminum cup would also spin.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

bernithebiker said:


> Fortunately I have a headset press, that I had to modify slightly, that I used to press the bearing in.
> 
> But I doubt most owners would be able to do this, so best to let your dealer do it.


if you are going to do any OSBB work, the Park BB30 tool set is very handy

Park Tool Co. » BBT-30.3 : Bottom Bracket Tool Set for BB30 and PF30 : Bottom Bracket

watch the little video at the end, it really is that easy to remove and install the bearings

you can make your own bearing press quite easily or buy one

Park Tool Co. » HHP-3 : Home Mechanic Bearing Cup Press : Headset


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

RkFast said:


> Has anyone done the epoxy fix Spesh mentions? I heard that its something I *SHOULD* do, but my bike is dead quiet....no play. I pulled the cranks...delrin cups are tight and bearing wear is minimal. So why make a change?
> 
> Im firmly in the "if it aint broke" camp here...but if Spesh is saying this is something I NEED to do, no matter what, maybe I should consider.
> 
> Or just get the C-Bear.


Why would you want to glue it in? If it is working, don't mess with it. Where does spesh say this is something you NEED to do?

When I built up my OSBB bike a couple of years ago the instructions were grease or loctite

grease has worked fine with 10K miles

i just built up another bike with 2012 crank and it specified green loctite

however, the bearings were already installed on the 2013 frame

the delrin cups appear to be molded

so I imagine on some bikes there is some tolerance stackup issues between the cup and the BB, on those bikes you would use epoxy.


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## c-bearusa.com (Dec 7, 2012)

purdyd said:


> You aren't reducing any parts, you are replacing the delrin cup with an aluminum cup, same number of parts.
> 
> if the delrin cup with bearing is spinning, i would have to guess the aluminum cup would also spin.


The aluminium cup is made to much tighter tolerance than the plastic one and will not change shape over time. The bearings are pre pressed at the factory and cannot easily be separated from the aluminum cup.


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

bernithebiker said:


> Yeah, my non-drive side was very nicely in place, so I didn't glue that one, just the drive side, which was so loose it practically fell out.
> 
> If you glue your original cups back in, they will have the bearings already in place in them, so you shouldn't really need a tool, just lightly tap them in if need be.
> 
> ...


OK, so the million dollar question.....the epoxied cups holding up OK? Still tight?


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

c-bearusa.com said:


> The aluminium cup is made to much tighter tolerance than the plastic one and will not change shape over time. The bearings are pre pressed at the factory and cannot easily be separated from the aluminum cup.


It is still two pieces

so you need to send the cups back to the factory to change bearings? That would not appeal to me

you are comparing an injection molded delrin (acetal) part which probably costs less than $2 to make and sells for $7.50 with a machined aluminum part that costs $20 to make and sells for $50.

considering that the loading is cyclic and the cup spends a great deal of time with no load, i don't see any reason that there should be any change in shape over time

and if there is, it is relatively easy and cheap to change

if the cups are coming in smaller in diameter, than get new ones

if the frame bb sleeve is too large, than it shouldn't matter if it is the new cbear aluminum or spec delrin cup, they both will spin because they will both be too small,

unless you glue them in

it is a good thing that a company like c-bear is making aluminum cups for the speciailized OSBB and I appreciate your need to sell some product

I just don't think you need to represent your product the way you have


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## RkFast (Dec 11, 2004)

purdyd said:


> Why would you want to glue it in? If it is working, don't mess with it. Where does spesh say this is something you NEED to do?
> 
> When I built up my OSBB bike a couple of years ago the instructions were grease or loctite
> 
> ...


The tech bulletin says its something you should do. I called Specialized and spoke to a tech today who essentially agreed with you, that if there is no movement and no noise, than to leave well enough alone, leaving the epoxy solution for when there is noise or movement.


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