# Newbie Questions - Novara anyone? Jamis?



## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

Hi- I'm a newbie and I was hoping to get some advice. I decided to sell my heavy cruiser and get a road bike and I visited about 6 or 7 LBS today to educate myself and do some test rides. My challenge is that I'm 5"1' and I got measured at two places who both recommended 43/44cm frames for me. And there aren't many of these in stock at a lot of places. 

So I ended up test-riding some basic bikes (Sora components - $700-800 range) and then some mid-level bikes (105 components - $1200-1500 range). The least expensive of the mid ones is a Jamis Ventura Race Femme for about $1200. I never heard of Jamis until today - but I test-rode it and it felt pretty good (purchase price includes the fitting and a year of service/re-fitting). And I feel like it's a bike I can grow into. (If anyone has any thoughts on Jamis, I'd love to hear them.)

Before committing to anything, I decided to take another look on Craigs List - I never find anything my frame size, so I've sort given up there. But a woman listed a Novara Carema Pro Women's Bike for $750 - new - so I'm going to take a look at it this week. But I don't know anything about Novara, except that it's an REI brand, and REI is not a bike shop or bike manufacturer. And I can't find any reviews anywhere (except 3 on their site). But it seems to have good components, according to the specs. Does anyone know anything about Novara bikes?

Am I better off going with a known quantity, buying a Jamis for $1200 at an LBS? Or buying the $750 bike and then going to an LBS to pay for a fitting?

I'm a newbie and I don't want to overspend. But I want to make sure I'm getting something of value. I could tell the difference between the Sora and the 105 when I was shifting on the bikes, so I was leaning towards the latter. I also like the frames that have the carbon forks, since I will be doing some city riding. Both of these bikes seem to meet those requirements? 

Thoughts? Am I overthinking this? Any/all help or advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Laine


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mfast said:


> Hi- I'm a newbie and I was hoping to get some advice. I decided to sell my heavy cruiser and get a road bike and I visited about 6 or 7 LBS today to educate myself and do some test rides. My challenge is that I'm 5"1' and I got measured at two places who both recommended 43/44cm frames for me. And there aren't many of these in stock at a lot of places.
> 
> So I ended up test-riding some basic bikes (Sora components - $700-800 range) and then some mid-level bikes (105 components - $1200-1500 range). The least expensive of the mid ones is a Jamis Ventura Race Femme for about $1200. I never heard of Jamis until today - but I test-rode it and it felt pretty good (purchase price includes the fitting and a year of service/re-fitting). And I feel like it's a bike I can grow into. (If anyone has any thoughts on Jamis, I'd love to hear them.)
> 
> ...


In your price range there are some other worthwhile choices, but if you've settled on the Novara and Jamis, we can focus on them.

If you've done any lurking here on RBR, you'll be familiar with the emphasis most put on fit. IMO it matters most and should remain a priority throughout the buying process. That said, it's a definite plus to work with LBS's as opposed to private buyers, such as CL ads. It's funny that in your description of that bike you mention _new_. I don't know how a private seller could state their bike was new if they own it!  Maybe excellent condition, but new? Do they offer a warranty?

But all kidding aside, buying used is somewhat of a risk, especially for anyone needing sizing/ fitting assistance. The seller obviously isn't going to offer those services, tune ups and certainly no warranty, so if something happens you foot the bill. Also, I noticed that bike can be had new (I mean, _really_ new) from REI for $970, so you have to ask yourself if the $200 +/- 'savings' is worth what you're giving up. BTW, you're right that the Novara has little info available. I tried to find the geo to compare to the Jamis (along with warranty info), but could not.

On to the Jamis. IMO a very good brand offering quality bikes, and the Ventura Race is no exception. You'll get a lifetime warranty (to the original owner) and it sounds like the LBS you're dealing with has some nice perks along with your purchase, especially the refitting, that's almost always necessary after the initial fit. And if you keep your bikes for any length of time, the cost difference between the Novara and Jamis is minimal, when spread out over a few years.

One last thought re: fitting. You mentioned possibly buying the CL bike_ then _going to the LBS to pay for a fitting. That _may _work, IF you've guessed right on the size. If not, fitting someone to the wrong size bike is far from optimal. 

But the bottom line, IMO is that it's hard to go wrong when you pick the bike that fits/ feels best and rides/ handles in a way that _just feels right_.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Novara*



> But I don't know anything about Novara, except that it's an REI brand, and REI is not a bike shop or bike manufacturer.


I don't have any specific advice for you, but I can correct a little bit of a mis-perception here. For practical purposes, REI _is_ a bike shop. The bike departments in their stores are usually well-equipped full-service shops, usually with knowledgeable employees. Their Novara house brand is generally respected as providing good quality and value. If you can determine that the used bike fits you, it may be a good deal. In any event, you shouldn't shy away from it just because of the brand name.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> I don't have any specific advice for you, but I can correct a little bit of a mis-perception here. For practical purposes, REI _is_ a bike shop. The bike departments in their stores are usually well-equipped full-service shops, usually with knowledgeable employees. Their Novara house brand is generally respected as providing good quality and value. If you can determine that the used bike fits you, it may be a good deal. In any event, you shouldn't shy away from it just because of the brand name.


I was about to say essentially the same thing. And add that I've bought quite a few things from REI (things that have nothing to do with bikes) and their customer service and willingness to stand behind what they sell is amazing. But before factoring that in you might want to give them a buzz and see if their return/service policies extend to someone other than the original buyer and off course if you live near an REI would matter.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Just a suggestion...you said you looked on Craig's list & can't find anything in your size. Bikes come in many, many different sizes and configurations. I'm a big guy - 6'3". My size range in bikes goes from 57 - 62. A 60cm bike in brand x might not fit me at all, and a 60cm bike in brand y might be perfect. I'm currently riding a 60cm DeRosa. I looked at a 60cm Mondonico and it was too big for me. If I would have decided on the Mondonico the best size for me would have been a 58. What I'm trying to say is that whether or not a bike fits you involves much, much more than the height of the seat tube. Actually, I consider the top tube length to be a more important dimension. I hear some people say, "Yeah, yeah, but that can be corrected by using different stem lengths, set back seat posts, etc." No, most of them can't. While it's certainly true that you can make the bike adjustable to a degree, if the frame isn't what you need it'll never really feel good, and the front/rear weight ratio and balance will not be what it could have been.

I'd buy a bike on line, but only if I was pretty darn familiar with the geometry of that particular brand and model. From nearly 50 years of adult riding I know what I need and want in terms of wheel base, top tube length, fork rake, seat tube height, BB height etc. My suggestion is unless you're familiar with these dimensions, how they work for you, and how they effect the ride or handling of the bike, that you buy a bike from a knowledgeable LBS who can fit you. Sure, you can get a much better deal on line..or can you? I can't tell you how many times I've bought items that I was sure were "good enough", only to have to buy a better one later, and maybe an even a better one than that, etc., etc.


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## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

*Novara*

Thanks for your comments. I'm going to check out the bike tomorrow night after work, and if it fits, I'll probably make the purchase, since I can get it fit for $75 at an LBS and the specs seem to be pretty good. I was just unsure since there's really nothing independent out there when I google "Novara bike reviews" (or any variation of that). I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a lemon.

Thanks all.


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## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

Mr. Versatile said:


> Just a suggestion...you said you looked on Craig's list & can't find anything in your size. Bikes come in many, many different sizes and configurations. I'm a big guy - 6'3". My size range in bikes goes from 57 - 62. A 60cm bike in brand x might not fit me at all, and a 60cm bike in brand y might be perfect. I'm currently riding a 60cm DeRosa. I looked at a 60cm Mondonico and it was too big for me. If I would have decided on the Mondonico the best size for me would have been a 58. What I'm trying to say is that whether or not a bike fits you involves much, much more than the height of the seat tube. Actually, I consider the top tube length to be a more important dimension. I hear some people say, "Yeah, yeah, but that can be corrected by using different stem lengths, set back seat posts, etc." No, most of them can't. While it's certainly true that you can make the bike adjustable to a degree, if the frame isn't what you need it'll never really feel good, and the front/rear weight ratio and balance will not be what it could have been.
> 
> I'd buy a bike on line, but only if I was pretty darn familiar with the geometry of that particular brand and model. From nearly 50 years of adult riding I know what I need and want in terms of wheel base, top tube length, fork rake, seat tube height, BB height etc. My suggestion is unless you're familiar with these dimensions, how they work for you, and how they effect the ride or handling of the bike, that you buy a bike from a knowledgeable LBS who can fit you. Sure, you can get a much better deal on line..or can you? I can't tell you how many times I've bought items that I was sure were "good enough", only to have to buy a better one later, and maybe an even a better one than that, etc., etc.


Thanks Mr. Versatile. You make a great point. But I do think a tall person has more options than a short person. My pants inseam is maybe 28" and my bike inseam (got measured with a level at one shop) is 29.5" (if I remember correctly). I have problems with standover height on a lot of the 47cm frames. And I'm pretty proportional in my torso length - I don't have a long torso, so the reach on the tube length is a little better on some of the smaller frames I tried at the stores. I'll let you know how the test turns out. Thanks again!


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## dphoenix (Nov 11, 2007)

Jamis = Value


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## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

dphoenix said:


> Jamis = Value


Really? Good to know. Thanks. 

Just saw another bike on Craigs List - 
http://www.bianchiusa.com/04-bicycles/04-road/04-vigorelli.html for $800 - so I'm going to check that one out too before I make a decision. Still trying to keep all the factors of buying used vs. at an LBS in my head while also trying to keep track of what feels best (hard to compare when I'm test riding different days at different locations). 

Thanks.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mfast said:


> Really? Good to know. Thanks.
> 
> Just saw another bike on Craigs List -
> http://www.bianchiusa.com/04-bicycles/04-road/04-vigorelli.html for $800 - so I'm going to check that one out too before I make a decision. *Still trying to keep all the factors of buying used vs. at an LBS in my head while also trying to keep track of what feels best *(hard to compare when I'm test riding different days at different locations).
> ...


Because you're new to road bikes, the _main_ advantage of going with a LBS is sizing/ fit assistance (but there are others). I know you said you were measured for a 43/44, but frame sizes vary between manufacturers, and sometimes even models, so a 43/44 doesn't always fit the same. LBS's can assist you with this and (good ones) suggest bikes with geo that works best for you.

IMO the only advantage to going used is that you save some $$. How much, depends..


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

mfast said:


> Really? Good to know. Thanks.
> 
> Just saw another bike on Craigs List -
> http://www.bianchiusa.com/04-bicycles/04-road/04-vigorelli.html for $800 - so I'm going to check that one out too before I make a decision. Still trying to keep all the factors of buying used vs. at an LBS in my head while also trying to keep track of what feels best (hard to compare when I'm test riding different days at different locations).
> ...


Just be aware that bike (the specific one on the link anyway) is a triple. I'm not saying that's bad, or good, but it is different.
In a nut shell that means you have more lower gears that might be of use for hills.
My own opinion, for the style of riding most people seeking a road bike are looking to do, is that triples aren't a good choice. Having the low gears is nice when beginning but if you're out there riding a lot your legs come along pretty quick and it's not long before you're carrying around gears you never use. Not the case with everyone off course or they wouldn't even sell the things, but probably the majority of road bikers.
That's my take anyway based on being a semi-new rider myself and at first wishing I have a triple but after a while when the legs came around being thankful I didn't.
Not to say it would be a bad choice for you......but just something to factor in when weighing bikes against each other.


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## RoadEye (Aug 21, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> That's my take anyway based on being a semi-new rider myself and at first wishing I have a triple but after a while when the legs came around being thankful I didn't.


aside from saving weight. what is the advantage of not having a triple? at this point, I rarely use the granny gear but, every now and again I run into a hill that makes me sure glad it is there.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

Theoretically shifting should be a little more crisp with a double. But who knows if that's really the case. It is with the triples and doubles I've riden but that could be other factors.


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## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

Hank Stamper said:


> Theoretically shifting should be a little more crisp with a double. But who knows if that's really the case. It is with the triples and doubles I've riden but that could be other factors.


What would be the benefit of having a double vs. a triple? I do live in a hilly area. Is a triple better for that? Or does it not really make that much of a difference to a relative newbie?

Thanks,
Laine


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mfast said:


> What would be the benefit of having a double vs. a triple? I do live in a hilly area. Is a triple better for that? Or does it not really make that much of a difference to a relative newbie?
> 
> Thanks,
> Laine


I disagree with Hank on this. Front and rear gearing should suite a given riders abilities/ fitness and terrain, not what they _might_ need or want at some future date. Besides, if a rider does progress quickly and find that they are using the 'granny' gear less and less, it's not like they can't ride the bike till they switch to a compact or double. Just don't use it! 

As far as mechanical complexity, sure there's a third chainring thus more FD travel, but IME they can be set up to operate on a par with a double. 

Also, one of the most common mistakes noobs make is maintaining too low cadence, and that extra gear may spare some from injuries. If you feel like you want that little extra help that the triple offers, by all means go for it.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

RoadEye said:


> aside from saving weight. what is the advantage of not having a triple? at this point, I rarely use the granny gear but, *every now and again I run into a hill that makes me sure glad it is there*.


And that's all the reason you need to keep it! :thumbsup:


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

FWIW, when I was looking at bikes I rode a Novara Strada (105-level, carbon stays). It's a solid bike. Wasn't exactly what I wanted (looking for something lighter and livelier), but I can see it being a great bike for long rides (it has a long wheelbase and pretty relaxed geometry). And if you're an REI member, it is _very_ attractively priced given the 10% dividend one gets.

BTW, you can download the Novara catalog from the REI website:
http://www.rei.com/pdf/novara/novaracatalog_09.pdf

It has the geometry listed for all their (current) bikes.

Asad


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

mfast said:


> What would be the benefit of having a double vs. a triple? I do live in a hilly area. Is a triple better for that? Or does it not really make that much of a difference to a relative newbie?
> 
> Thanks,
> Laine



Actually it would make the most difference to a relative newbie in a hilly area. You'd really make use of it whereas unless they are serious hills it would just be extra baggage to an in shape experienced rider.
I wasn't trying to talk you out of a triple, and probably shouldn't assume other people are as neurotic as me when it comes to having parts on a bike that aren't getting used (potenitally). Just wanted to point out that it is "different" so you'd be aware and factor it in if necessary.


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## q_and_a (Aug 3, 2009)

I actually have a Novara mountain bike that I bought at an REI store. It has really been a good bike and was a pretty good value. I got better components than I could have on another bike of similar price. That being said, it is a little on the heavy side, but I have had absolutely no problems with it.


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## jacks dad (Aug 19, 2009)

I think alot of buying a bike is the 'experience' while buying the bike. Dont rule this out. Especially if you will be returning for gear, tune-ups,etc.


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## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks all. I'm still doing some test rides this weekend on a couple of used bikes I saw on CL and Giant Avail 1 and a Trek 1.2 (though I think I'd prefer the 2.1 - they would have to order it my size though). I think I want to pay closer attention to see if I can feel the difference between a double and triple crankset.


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## redlizard (Jul 26, 2007)

mfast said:


> Thanks all. I'm still doing some test rides this weekend on a couple of used bikes I saw on CL and Giant Avail 1 and a Trek 1.2 (though I think I'd prefer the 2.1 - they would have to order it my size though). I think I want to pay closer attention to see if I can feel the difference between a double and triple crankset.


You likely *won't* feel much difference between the double and triple unless you demo both on some fairly steep climbs. This is where the advantage of the triple comes in. On the flats or gradual hills, they should perform pretty much the same. You might get slightly more crisp shifts and you'll definitely save a touch of weight with a double, but the trade-off is the loss of granny gears on the steep hills. IMO, a triple would be ideal for a relative newcomer in a hilly area, especially if you don't have the benefit of the leg strength that comes with years of riding.


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## mfast (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all your advice. I ended up buying the used Bianchi Vigorelli off Craig's List - http://www.bianchiusa.com/04-bicycles/04-road/04-vigorelli.html - for $800, and I have an appt at an LBS for a fitting (for $75) next week. The frame size was comfortable, it's a triple (good for my newbie legs on the hills here), and the shifters are all Ultegra!

The components are way better than anything I could get at an LBS for the money, and the bike felt pretty good on my test ride. And I just couldn't spend $1200+ on a bike (not to mention the 9.5% sales tax here in San Francisco).

I do appreciate all the help. Thanks again!

-Laine


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

mfast said:


> Thanks everyone for all your advice. I ended up buying the used Bianchi Vigorelli off Craig's List - http://www.bianchiusa.com/04-bicycles/04-road/04-vigorelli.html - for $800, and I have an appt at an LBS for a fitting (for $75) next week. The frame size was comfortable, it's a triple (good for my newbie legs on the hills here), and the shifters are all Ultegra!
> 
> The components are way better than anything I could get at an LBS for the money, and the bike felt pretty good on my test ride. And I just couldn't spend $1200+ on a bike (not to mention the 9.5% sales tax here in San Francisco).
> 
> ...


Smart move getting the bike fitting, IMHO. Congrats and ride safe!! :thumbsup: 

PS - 'real world' pics always welcome.


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