# ACL Rupture and Riding Pre-op



## jerdubois (Aug 16, 2002)

Hey All -

Just found out this morning that I ruptured my ACL and will need reconstruction.

The doc was happy to hear that I am an avid road-biker, as he stated this is the best possible re-hab for me post-op.

Now the sad part - the day before seeing the Doc I bought a brand spanking new Cannondale Synapse Carbon Dura-Ace. A beauty. I am staring at it now. Believe it or not, I slapped on a brace and took it for a light ride last weekend (14 days after the accident occured) and though I felt some discomfort during and some stiffness after, there was no swelling or lingering pain.

Does anyone w/ relevant medical or practical experience have an opinion here? I have a gym membership and have been riding the stationary 20 mins a day 4-5x a week since it happened. But with the mild weather we've been getting in Boston, I am dying to take my Synapse back out.

Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

jerdubois said:


> Hey All -
> 
> Just found out this morning that I ruptured my ACL and will need reconstruction.
> 
> ...


My daughter had ACL reconstruction surgery last year. The surgeon recommended light excercise before the surgery but advised that he wanted no swelling at the time of surgery. She had physical therapy before and after the surgery and is doing very well now. The new ACL was made from a tendon from a cadaver.


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## HardCharger (Nov 26, 2006)

*Good new & bad news...*

Bad news first. Sorry to hear about your ACL. I can relate. I've snapped both of mine & had both repaired last year (sure feels good to say that!) The bad news is that your knee will never be the same & the potential for reinjury is much much greater. Leg strength in both the involved and non-involved leg is absolutely critical. I'd talk to your Orthopedic Surgeon (OS) about scheduling an autograph patellar tendon or hamstring tendon reconstructive surgery in the next few months. Plenty of information out there on the web like at Bob's Knee Board. Hint: do a web search...

The good news is that you should be exercising as much as possible (see below) to regain flexibility & leg strength, & prior to any type of scheduled knee surgery. The better shape you are in & the stronger your legs are before you go into it, the better your chances are of a speedy & "uneventful" recovery. 

I injured my left knee in '83 & my right knee in '05. I had surgery on my right knee first, followed by the left a couple of months later due to insurance reasons. Point bieng is you can live without an intact ACL. Exercise is critical to try & help stablize the knee & biking, either stationary or road, is always recommended for ACL deficient patients.

Do I wish I did (the left) earlier? Yes. My left knee is not in as good condition as I'd hoped after all this time. 

Did I want the invasive procedures done during that time? No. Orthoscopically is the way it's done now with very little scarring & a much faster recovery time. It is painful, though...

So if you can ride without aggravating, causing any swelling or reinjuring the affected knee then go ahead. It's called "Pre-habbing" before surgery. Stay away from squats, deep knee bends & other activities that really stress the knee joint. If you have any doubts or questions, contact your OS for answers.

Good luck


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## DriftlessDB (Jul 29, 2005)

Completely tore my ACL last January. Unfortunately I also partially tore my LCL and the doc said wear this giant brace and no exercise or surgery till the LCL heals. (apparently LCL replacement is much worse that ACL replacement) Had surgery in March and rode the heck out of my bike this past summer. Ready to get back on the skis and in a course as soon as we get some snow.

I would check with your Doc b/f riding outside. They were very concerned with the instability and potential for further injury with my knee. It's hard to fall off the stationary bike, on the road you expose yourself to many more variables.

Dave


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## the spyder (Feb 15, 2004)

*Injury and exercise for ACL*

Under no circumstances should u try running. That will mess your knee up faster and you will wear the cartilage down to a point where a total knee replacement may be necessary.
I realize that you want to exercise. I would recommend a stationary bike rather than riding open country. If you fall, more damage could be done than just the ACL. Good luck with the surgery and rehab, your own orthopod should give you the direction in which to go with your exercise both pre and post op.
Dave Roberts MD


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## T-CON (Jan 30, 2006)

Wow I am having flash backs to my past year. I blew out my left ACL skiing last february. My diagnosis took a long time because my symptoms did not make anyone think I had completely destroyed the ligament. I worked out hard and rode as much as I could tolerate up until surgery with a major escallation in mileage between the final decision to do the surgery and the actual surgery. I attribute my rate of recovery to the amount of muscle mass I had going in, starting to straighten the knee immediately after surgery and starting rehab within days of the surgery.

I was back out on the road 4 weeks after surgery (doctor wanted 6 weeks). But I was on a sationary bike or trainer 4 days after the surgery.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

I blew my right knee playing soccer in early Feb '04 ( snapped ACL, partial MCL tear, tore medial and lateral meniscus) and had a hamstring graft March '04.

My ortho highly suggested riding as good pre-op exercise (on flat platform pedals), just go easy and not sprinting or grinding up hills. Do a good number of leg raises now and get used to them. Getting your quad to fire after the surgery will be primary importance followed by getting your range of motion back (the sooner you can fire your quad, the less atrophy you will have). I actually did 4 weeks of pre-op PT too and think that it helped a lot. 
the thinking about swelling was put to me as this - your knee will return to the point that it was at before surgery. So if you still have a swollen knee at time of surgery, it will be very hard to get the swelling down.

Once you do get the surgery, be very diligent in the post op PT. How your knee does for the rest of your life is very dependent on if you slack off or not. I can confidently play soccer on my knee again and have logged several hundred miles backpacking with heavy loads as well post op - several of my friends that slacked off during PT are still having issues with their knee. 
I would suggest getting a good custom brace to use for the first year or so if you do any high impact sports and your insurance will pay for it. If nothing else, the extra piece of mind is worth it. The first year I was back playing soccer, my brace saved me a couple times as my knee would get a little unstable at the end of a full game. Also the first year post op, my knee did get very sore after a very hard ride, soccer game, day skiing bumps, etc - the next year it would just get a little stiff . Now it doesn't really get sore or stiff, and I'd say its ~95% of what it was before blowing it. (due to the meniscus tears, I'll never be able to run distances on concrete again.)

For time lines - I a bit fuzzy now, but I believe I was riding a stationary bike the first week post op (not necessarily well, but riding non-the-less), walking/jogging on a treadmill 3 weeks post op, riding a bike outside 4 weeks post op, running outside 6 weeks post op, playing soccer and ridding w/clipless pedals 9 weeks post op.

edit: I found my post op sheet and the above is definitely wrong for a time line; here is the rough outline that I somewhat followed:
day after op - visit Ortho and PT, start using CPM machine
1 week post op - start PT and stop using crutches
2 weeks post op - start manual manipulation of ROM and electro stim of muscles, start riding stationary bike
3 weeks post op - walk stairs, walk backwards, start balance disk exercises; stop using full leg brace
4 weeks post op - start single leg squats and balance exercises
5 weeks post op - start dynamic strength and balance exercises
6 weeks post op - start using treadmill, walking backwards on incline and slow jogging for short periods
7 weeks post op - able to ride bike with flat platforms, no sprints or climbing.
8 weeks post op - dynamic motions involving knee strengthening, stop using short knee brace
9 weeks post op - jogging for up to 3 miles limited by knee comfort.
12 weeks post op - review progress and add more strength training and dynamic motion if capable
16-18 weeks - review progress, allow sprinting, cutting drills, use of clip less pedals if cleared
22-24 weeks - sports release if cleared by ortho.


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## jerdubois (Aug 16, 2002)

DriftlessDB said:


> It's hard to fall off the stationary bike, on the road you expose yourself to many more variables.
> 
> Dave


Yah, I did ride for 3-4 miles last weekend ... but was a bit worried about clipping in and out on the left (damaged) side. It's easy to control when everything is going well, but in case of emergency you may be leaving yourself WIDE open to further injury.


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## jerdubois (Aug 16, 2002)

Guys this is very very helpful.

HardCharger - I am in the exact same situation. I recently injured the left knee (bball) but had injured the right skiing and indoor soccer 10 years ago. It would give out on me all the time so I wear a heavy brace on it thinking it was a bad sprain. In fact, the OS suggested that the reason why my right knee was even able to operate was due to the muscle / quads I had built up over the years. I am leaning towards the autograph using patella tendon, as I want as strong a knee as possible afterwards. This is due to the fact that my right knee also has an ACL injury that was never properly diagnosed and consequently repaired. 

The Spyder - yah, I have NO intention of doing that. Even now, if my left knee swings like a pendulum I get a shooting pain through it. Prob due to the bone bruise I received during the hyper-extension.

T-Con - most of my friends couldn't believe I blew my ACL as I was able to walk on it the next day. As soon as the injury happened I iced it for 4-5 hours straight and elevated right away. Little to no swelling to place.

BSaunder - your 2nd para is what my OS said word for word today. 

I am not looking foward to this at all, but the good news is that it looks like I will be enjoying my brand spanking new Synapse! Maybe the wife will let me get an indoor trainer for it!

Thanks again all, your feedback has been most helpful.

Cheers!


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

jerdubois said:


> It's easy to control when everything is going well, but in case of emergency you may be leaving yourself WIDE open to further injury.


That is the concern. What if you go down? What if you try to get out of the pedal automatically and do further injury? I think riding outside carries some very serious risks to you for the rest of your life. Low probablility, perhaps, but the downside of that low probability event would be unacceptable to me under any conditions.

A few weeks, versus the rest of your life. Your choice.

(As always on these kinds of questions, I am not an MD.)


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## Walt12 (Jan 4, 2007)

Anyone with any experience with miniscus injuries? I think I may have torn mine playing soccer about a month ago, have seen a physio and the possibility exists (next step are scans, as it hasn't responded to treatment).

I asked about light riding, and was recommended stationary/indoors only. Thing is, when I ride, the damn thing locks up on me, and my hamstring gets very cramped, so no way can I prevent wastage of quad at this rate ... what to do?


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

jerdubois said:


> Yah, I did ride for 3-4 miles last weekend ... but was a bit worried about clipping in and out on the left (damaged) side. It's easy to control when everything is going well, but in case of emergency you may be leaving yourself WIDE open to further injury.


my ortho insisted on flat platforms for that exact reason - that and twisting out was too painful for me anyways.


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## HardCharger (Nov 26, 2006)

*Another injury riddled athlete*

jerdubois, 
Sounds like you've had the unpleasant experience of sustaining multiple catastrophic injuries. I too, have had my share. Ripped my shoulder out (& many times after) when I was 17 & had it reconstructed many years later in '92. Now it's ~95%. Best decision I made back then to get it stitched & anchored back together.

Going back to the knees, surgery sucks but it can really do wonders for an injured limb or joint. I didn't do anything (reconstructive surgery) to my left knee. I ended up with additional joint damage to the articular cartilage on the end of the femor & had to have half of the (medial) meniscus removed due to it being mascerated from multiple injuries. 

The last ditch effort by my OS during my left hamstring autograft ACL recon was to perform microfracturing (drilling small shallow holes in the damaged area) to stimulate cartilage scarring to try & delay the onset of osteoarthritis. Shoots, my left knee looks to be 15 - 20 years advanced (aged) compared to my right from the arthroscope photos. This procedure made the left side recovery much more painful & a bit slower, but not by much, compared to the right.

Just don't get disappointed if you happen to experience any "eventful" setbacks during your prescribed post-op PT. While rehabbing the right, I tore my right calf muscle when I was stretching on a step. I tore my left hamstring while rehabbing the left knee. These are painful & can delay the overall recovery time. Just keep looking ahead to the end of PT.

If you don't know your leg anatomy now, I'm sure you'll be well versed in it by the time you get your (long-awaited) sports release...

Hang in there.


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## T-CON (Jan 30, 2006)

jerdubois

I had the same problem. I even had trouble convincing the doctor there was something wrong with the knee. I blew the ACL, got up and telemarked down from the summit of jackson hole then did another lap before calling it a day. I just knew something was wrong.

Anyway work out hard before the surgery and get in to see the PT you will work with to develop a plan, then do everything they say.


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## jerdubois (Aug 16, 2002)

Well - I couldn't stand this nice Boston weather anymore. I put the clips on the lightest tension, wore a medium stiffness neoprene brace, and took off late morning (less traffic). I rode for 60 mins today (prob 15 miles or so, no bike computer on the new ride yet). Nothing too crazy, but did do one hill - standing seem to cause less pressure on the knee. Iced it for 30 mins after and no swelling. 

Will repeat as much as I can weather permitting!

Thanks all for the advice and encouragement!


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## djg21 (Oct 25, 2003)

jerdubois said:


> Hey All -
> 
> Just found out this morning that I ruptured my ACL and will need reconstruction.
> 
> ...


I had a my first ACL reconstruction in the late 80s, and a second revision in May 2005. Last time around, I rode right up until the surgery, and I actually did a 50 mile training ride the evening before. My surgeon was fine with me riding, as long as I stayed away from hills and extremely hard efforts. I could spin and ride flats just fine, so long as I stayed in the saddle. Out of the saddle climbing was a problem and bunny hopping over railroad tracks, as I could then feel the instability in the joint. I also worked with my PT on strengthening my quads and hammies before the surgery,

You probably can lose the brace. The ACL is not involved in cycling when you remain seated.That being said, you should confer with your surgeon. You may have additional injuries, for instance, to your meniscus, that may interefer with riding,

BTW, I was on a trainer working on range of motion two weeks after the surgey, and I was outside on the road by the forth week.


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## jerdubois (Aug 16, 2002)

*UPDATE - Post Op Recovery*

Hey All - thanks again for your words of wisdom.

I am 12 days post op. I went in for my first follow-up last week, 7 days post-op, and the doc said I was "amazing". Doing leg lifts, range of motion was about 75 degrees. No swelling in the knee, a bit in the quad and calf areas. I've been icing and doing my exercises like crazy. Like the doc said "you can't do anything to the knee, so push as hard as you can". It was a patella tendon replacement - strongest option. And, as I will agree to, pretty painful. My stitches were not taken out as a couple were QUITE ready to go yet. This will happen on Thursday, 15 days post opp.

I started walking (albeit with a significant limp) last Thursday. And though I was exhausted the first few days, it's doing better now. I am going up stairs 1 at a time. And even tried to get on the stationary to see how far I could get around on the crank.

Unfortunately, not far enough. My comfortable range of motion is probably no better then a 100-105 right now. I know some of you stated you were back on the bike within 3 weeks. Is my recovery consistent with what you have seen so far? My CPM zonked out on me this morning, but I will get a replacement tomorrow to keep working the range. After a chance ride (mild last weekend in Feb) before the operation, I cleaned off the Synapse Carbon Dura and she is ready to rock when I am!

Finally, I am still experiencing some significant pain. I am trying to switch to just tylenol, but still find myself reaching for a percoset at night so that the leg camls down enough for me to get some sleep.

Any advice or comments would be MUCH appreciated!

=== UPDATE ===

I got on the bike tonight after doing a bunch of exercises and was able to do a full revolution. I did about 10-12 peddle strokes. Tomorrow I'll do a bit more ... what a relief!


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

You're doing great - don't worry about comparing yourself to others as everyone heals at different rates and most get "spurts" of healing too. Just keep up with the PT really working on ROM and getting that quad to fire. 
I did the hamstring graft and it uses a different PT schedule, so I'm not much help there.


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## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

*I've had both ACL's reconstructed.*

The left knee done in 1994 and the right knee done in 2001. Both were whilst playing soccer. I'm from Melbourne and we have the dubious distinction of being the knee reconstruction capital of the world due to the high participation rates of Aussie rules football and netball. My surgeon performs about a dozen reconstructions a week and also heads up the research team of his hospital (knee injuries and recoveries).

Some myths or truths about ACL ruptures and knee reconstructions.

If you rupture your ACL you CANNOT play sport where there is a twisting motion required. You can swim, run in a straight line, ride a bike but you cannot play soccer, basketball, NFL etc.

If your knee gives way because your ACL is ruptured there is a strong possibility you will damage your meniscus. A damaged meniscus could result in the early onset of athritis in the knee joint - very painfull.

I initially got into riding to rehabilitate the quad muscles after surgey and have kept it up ever since. I rode right upto the day before the second surgery. Having your leg in a brace for 3 weeks with only minimal movement completely wastes the quad muscle and cycling is probably the best way to build it up again.

You cannot rupture your ACL again by riding a bike. Riding and gentle weights are the best form of rehab. 

Sport after surgery recommences around 12 months post-op. This is the recommended timeframe as it takes that long for the bone graft to knit. Proffesional sportsmen usually return much sooner but they are getting paid big bucks and therefore they are willing to take the risk of re-injuring the knee.

Wearing a brace when you re-commence your sport does absolutely nothing to protect the knee except maybe give you confidence to trust the knee. ACL ruptures occur when the knee goes thru a twisting motion and for a brace to protect you from re-rupturing your ACL it must stop all twisting motion therefore it kind of makes it hard to play soccer or basketball without twisting.

I had the patella graft as opposed to the hastring graft. Research has shown that the patella graft is stronger but there is some tendonitis around the patella region as about 1/3 of the patella is stripped to manufacture the new ACL. Again this comes down to what the surgeon is used to performing.

Good luck in your recovery.


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## bsaunder (Oct 27, 2004)

jpap said:


> The left knee done in 1994 and the right knee done in 2001. Both were whilst playing soccer. I'm from Melbourne and we have the dubious distinction of being the knee reconstruction capital of the world due to the high participation rates of Aussie rules football and netball. My surgeon performs about a dozen reconstructions a week and also heads up the research team of his hospital (knee injuries and recoveries).
> 
> Some myths or truths about ACL ruptures and knee reconstructions.
> 
> If you rupture your ACL you CANNOT play sport where there is a twisting motion required. You can swim, run in a straight line, ride a bike but you cannot play soccer, basketball, NFL etc.


this goes under the myth correct? Amongst others, John Elway, played the majority of his NFL career without an ACL. It all depends on the person and the instability they have. I played a couple soccer games without my ACL, but chose to have it replaced while I was young and had good insurance so I could recover easier and afford it. 
I'm not saying everyone can play impact sports without an ACL, but some can and do.


> If your knee gives way because your ACL is ruptured there is a strong possibility you will damage your meniscus. A damaged meniscus could result in the early onset of athritis in the knee joint - very painfull.
> 
> I initially got into riding to rehabilitate the quad muscles after surgey and have kept it up ever since. I rode right upto the day before the second surgery. Having your leg in a brace for 3 weeks with only minimal movement completely wastes the quad muscle and cycling is probably the best way to build it up again.
> 
> ...


Apparently Aussie guidelines and US guidelines are quite different - my memory was quite fuzzy above as many of the time lines are way too optimistic (I've edited my time lines above as I found my sheet from my ortho) 
I was playing soccer again in August after a Feb. surgery that year ('04). I had my full medical release to play impact sports in July. 
I was told by all three ortho's that I met with before my surgery that at 5-6 months post op the graft is at 90% strength and already stronger than the new ACL, so sports release is generally done then if the patient demonstrates they have recovered enough. I will say at that point I would rate my recovery at ~90-95% and I did not hit 100% until 12-14 months post op.



> Wearing a brace when you re-commence your sport does absolutely nothing to protect the knee except maybe give you confidence to trust the knee. ACL ruptures occur when the knee goes thru a twisting motion and for a brace to protect you from re-rupturing your ACL it must stop all twisting motion therefore it kind of makes it hard to play soccer or basketball without twisting.


Actually a good custom brace may do a lot of help and will allow twisting motion - it just limits it to a safe range. I can still out sprint and cut people half my age on the soccer field with my brace on. I choose to wear the brace as I have very little meniscus left and by limiting the twisting and over extension motions, it helps to protect it and not tear it any more. 
Many research papers have come to the conclusion that someone with a repaired ACL is much less likely to rupture it again if they wear a brace. For one of many references, check out - "The role of functional bracing in preventing injury in ACL reconstructed professional skiers: A prospective cohort study". Farley TD, Sterett WI, et al. AOSSM Specialty Day Meeting, March 13, 2004, San Franciso, CA - the punch line of the report is professional skiers that wear a brace are 2.74 times less likely to re-injure the knee.

For what its worth, I blew my ACL by massively hyper extending the knee, not twisting it.

Not everyone needs a brace, but a brace can very well protect the knee and help people that still have some instability in the knee after surgery (quite a few people actually).



> I had the patella graft as opposed to the hastring graft. Research has shown that the patella graft is stronger but there is some tendonitis around the patella region as about 1/3 of the patella is stripped to manufacture the new ACL. Again this comes down to what the surgeon is used to performing.
> 
> Good luck in your recovery.


We all get different advice, yourself from probably one of the best surgeons in AUS; myself from some of the best in the US - it all comes down to the fact that everyone heals and reacts differently; so while there are many good guidelines, there are few absolutes.


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## jpap (Jun 21, 2006)

bsaunder said:


> this goes under the myth correct? Amongst others, John Elway, played the majority of his NFL career without an ACL. It all depends on the person and the instability they have.
> 
> -You and John Elway would've been in the very minority. After my 1st rupture I went to physios and sports doctors to examine the knee and not one said I had ruptured the ACL as my quads and hammys were very strong and they could not get unstable movement whilst they were examining it. I went to training 2 weeks after I did it and bang as soon as I put mt weight on the leg with the torn ACL I collapsed in a heap, no stability.
> 
> ...


- totally agree


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## HardCharger (Nov 26, 2006)

jerdubois,

Hang in there. Keep up the PT & strengthening exercises. You probably went under the knife with strong muscles so your recovery will be easier & quicker because of that fact. "Prehabbing" pays dividends after surgery. The patellar tendon autograft is considered the current gold standard because of the BTB Bone-Tendon-Bone connection so you should be in good shape in a few more months.

The pain is going to be with you for a while. I had differing amounts with each of my (2) ACL procedures. The right had very little & the left had much more. I lived on 600 mg's of Vitamin 'I' for a few weeks post op to get me through a normal day at work. 

The worst is over. Your pain should subside as you continue with your ROM & legs strengthening exercises. Keep up with continuous calf & quad tensing, & leg raises of all kinds to get your fast twitch muscles to wake up again. Stationary bicycling is definitely one of the best ways to accelerate your recovery so you can get back out on the road again.


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## jerdubois (Aug 16, 2002)

bsaunder said:


> this goes under the myth correct? Amongst others, John Elway, played the majority of his NFL career without an ACL. It all depends on the person and the instability they have.


I had hear that as well!



jpap said:


> -You and John Elway would've been in the very minority. After my 1st rupture I went to physios and sports doctors to examine the knee and not one said I had ruptured the ACL as my quads and hammys were very strong and they could not get unstable movement whilst they were examining it. I went to training 2 weeks after I did it and bang as soon as I put mt weight on the leg with the torn ACL I collapsed in a heap, no stability.


Funny thing is that when the doc asked me about my "good" knee, and I told him the history -- hurt it skiing and indoor soccer -- he smirked, did his thing and said you've been playing for 10 years w/o an ACL in this one. I told him that it made sense -- it would give out on me regularly unless I wore a pretty stiff neoprene brace w/ metal hinges built into it. He actually told me exactly the same thing as you -- (1) Your quads and hammies have kept it together, (2) your body naturally started favoring the other leg (asked me what leg I land on when I play Basketball, etc.



bsaunder said:


> Apparently Aussie guidelines and US guidelines are quite different - my memory was quite fuzzy above as many of the timelines are way too optimistic - however, I was playing soccer again in August after a Feb. surgery that year ('04). I had my full medical release to play impact sports in July.
> 
> I was told by all three ortho's that I met with before my surgery that at 5-6 months post op the graft is at 90% strength and already stronger than the new ACL, so sports release is generally done then.


Same story here - 4-6 months before I can resume full contact basketball, volleyball, soccer etc. But hey, I'll be back on the bike in a couple days!!



jpap said:


> - I was full on training after 6 months but I took a conservative view so took the full 12 months before returning to competitive games.





bsaunder said:


> Actually a good custom brace may do a lot of help and will allow twisting motion - it just limits it to a safe range. I can still out sprint and cut people half my age on the soccer field with my brace on. I choose to wear the brace as I have very little meniscus left and by limiting the twisting and over extension motions, it helps to protect it and not tear it any more. Many research papers have come to the conclusion that someone with a repaired ACL is much less likely to rupture it again if they wear a brace. ).


I know that I will be asking the doc for at least one brace for the "good" knee w/o the ACL and would hope to have one for the left repaired knee as well. I just would like a bit more confidence that things will be ok.



jpap said:


> - we had an Aussie rules player over here playing for one of the pro teams who wore a brace the club purchased from the US. Did his knee 3rd game back.





bsaunder said:


> We all get different advice, yourself from probably one of the best surgeons in AUS; myself from some of the best in the US - it all comes down to the fact that everyone heals and reacts differently; so while there are many good guidelines, there are few absolutes.





jpap said:


> - totally agree


I am excited about getting back on the bike ... and all the advice you guys have provided!


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