# Trek reject warranty claim Domane 6.9 disc



## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

First post - angry and shocked at Trek rejecting my warranty claim. 
The bike is a domane 6.9 disc, £6k cost purchased from Sigma sport. 

On a group ride a couple of weeks ago and the guys on the ride noticed i had a crack on the seat stay - crack was all the way around. 

That ended the ride and i drove it straight to sigma who said they'd send it to warranty dept. looked like a catastrophic failure. 

Just heard back from them saying trek say is accident damage. offered me crash repair programme where i pay £1200. 

The bike has never been dropped. They said theres evidence its been on its side. Yes - the only times its ever on its side is when i slide it into my car (with seats down) to take it somewhere for a ride. 

I'm picking the bike up off them ina couple of days. 

I dont know what to do next - whether just to take the di2 off it and fit to another of my bikes and bin the thing. 

Can anyone suggest any alternative routes? 

At the moment sigma have sent photos of the crack and thats the verdict. They say that failures of the frame come from within the tubes whereas this looks like a crack from outside in. 

Thanks in advance


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

So the dealer took pictures and never actually sent the bike back to Trek? At the moment Sigma have not actually done anything for you, their customer. I'd be putting a **** load more pressure on Sigma. They are the people you have the problem with.

Can the dealer actually point you to an area of the frame that shows an impact? (the only thing you've done is put your bike into a car, I am presuming it never got scratched up then). If they can't then I'd be looking at legal advice. They are using the Trek warranty department as a foil to your claim with them. Don't give up that easily. You are in England yeah? https://www.gov.uk/consumer-protection-rights 

have you got pics of the crack?

Oh and I know your pissed off but reposting your complaint everywhere while seemingly satisfying does SFA .


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ataunque said:


> First post - angry and shocked at Trek rejecting my warranty claim.
> The bike is a domane 6.9 disc, £6k cost purchased from Sigma sport.
> 
> On a group ride a couple of weeks ago and the guys on the ride noticed i had a crack on the seat stay - crack was all the way around.
> ...


was the crack on the disc brake side?


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

hi yes it was on the disc side. around a quarter of the way up the seat stay. they say that the crack is outside to in and that suggests an accident whereas a failure would be inside to out???


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

ataunque said:


> they say that the crack is outside to in and that suggests an accident whereas a failure would be inside to out???


can we see a pic of that outside to in crack?


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Sorry for your issue. Please post some closeup pics for us.

But Sigma needs to represent you better. You may need to take Sigma to small claim court to settle this if they are not willing to get this warranted.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> Sorry for your issue. Please post some closeup pics for us.
> 
> But Sigma needs to represent you better. You may need to take Sigma to small claim court to settle this if they are not willing to get this warranted.


You're kidding, right? No one here has seen the damage and it's not up to Sigma to make warranty decisions. Let's wait to see some photos before jumping to ridiculous conclusions.


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## Durt (Jul 28, 2008)

"I was JRA..." <roll eyes> 
Have it repaired, paint over the Trek logos, never spend another dollar on Trek products.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't really understand it. You say 



ataunque said:


> crack was all the way around.


but you also say



> hi yes it was on the disc side.


Is it all the way around or only at one side? 

Anyhow, if it's accident damage and if it's all the way around, it must have been one hell of an impact. I was hit sideways by a car two years ago riding a carbon Giant frame. The wheels were bent like pretzels and yes, there was a crack in the seat stay. But it was small, not all the way around, and there were plenty of other signs on the frame that I had an accident: scratches, damaged paint and so on. 

I find it hard to believe that an accident that makes a seat stay crack all around, doesn't leave other evidence. Carbon is remarkably though (or perhaps Trek doesn't build its frames as solidly as Giant, I don't know).


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

HFroller said:


> I don't really understand it. You say
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he means the disc side seat stay is the one that is cracked.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

I would like to know what evidence Trek saw that indicated to them it had been on its side. The OP says the bike has been meticulously taken care of and I would think that unless something happened it would be impossible to know a bike was transported in the back of a car on its side. I think there are a lot of people who get their bikes around like that and I never heard of a frame cracking. Something isn’t right.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Durt said:


> "I was JRA..." <roll eyes>
> Have it repaired, paint over the Trek logos, never spend another dollar on Trek products.


Another post from someone that has zero information about what actually happened to this frame and is jumping to conclusions. I hate customers like this. 



jaggrin said:


> I would like to know what evidence Trek saw that indicated to them it had been on its side. The OP says the bike has been meticulously taken care of and I would think that unless something happened it would be impossible to know a bike was transported in the back of a car on its side. I think there are a lot of people who get their bikes around like that and I never heard of a frame cracking. Something isn’t right.


Something is definitely not right. Trek have seen thousands of damaged frames over the years so they know exactly what they're looking right away. I know from years of personal experience they will bend over backwards to cover a legitimate warranty issues and keep the customer happy. That's why they offer the 20% crash replacement discount.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Something is definitely not right.


I agree. If I understand this correctly, Trek only has a picture of the damage. That's not enough for a proper analysis. An all around crack sound pretty serious to me, and I can't believe Trek would make a decision without checking the frame for other signs of "user error" or "accidents".


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

HFroller said:


> I agree. If I understand this correctly, Trek only has a picture of the damage. *That's not enough for a proper analysis*. An all around crack sound pretty serious to me, and I can't believe Trek would make a decision without checking the frame for other signs of "user error" or "accidents".


A lot of the time it is, surprisingly. After you've seen hundreds or thousands of examples of the different kinds of failures/types of damage it's not that hard to figure out what happened. They know how the frames are built and also what the different failure modes look like. Once you know that you can tell when something is damaged and hasn't 'broken' because it failed.

I'm thinking there's something missing from the OP's story...we still haven't seen photos yet.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ataunque said:


> The bike has never been dropped. They said theres evidence its been on its side. Yes - the only times its ever on its side is when i slide it into my car (with seats down) to take it somewhere for a ride.



hmmmmm.......the old JRA routine!


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## Durt (Jul 28, 2008)

cxwrench said:


> Another post from someone that has zero information about what actually happened to this frame and is jumping to conclusions. I hate customers like this.


Yet here you are speculating like the rest of us with zero information. 
C'mon man. With all your experience, how many times have you heard the JRA when it's clear that there's some BS going on? People lie their butts off to cover their own failings. I find it hard to believe that a frame just cracks like that for no apparent reason. Obviously Trek finds this hard to believe as well. 
And my point is if that he's that hacked off at them, don't send them any more money and don't advertise for them.


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## izza (Jul 25, 2012)

If frame is broke by accidental damage then two parties have handled the frame after leaving Trek - Sigma and OP. 

Presuming bike using a credit card then ask for payment to be returned for product not fit for purpose. At that point, Signa will take up the issue much more seriously. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Durt said:


> "I was JRA..." <roll eyes>
> Have it repaired, paint over the Trek logos, never spend another dollar on Trek products.





jaggrin said:


> I would like to know what evidence Trek saw that indicated to them it had been on its side. The OP says the bike has been meticulously taken care of and I would think that unless something happened it would be impossible to know a bike was transported in the back of a car on its side. I think there are a lot of people who get their bikes around like that and I never heard of a frame cracking. Something isn’t right.





Durt said:


> Yet here you are speculating like the rest of us with zero information.
> C'mon man. With all your experience, how many times have you heard the JRA when it's clear that there's some BS going on? People lie their butts off to cover their own failings. I find it hard to believe that a frame just cracks like that for no apparent reason. Obviously Trek finds this hard to believe as well.
> And my point is if that he's that hacked off at them, don't send them any more money and don't advertise for them.


If the customer is responsible for the damage, which he very well might be, he shouldn't be 'hacked off' at Trek, he should take responsiblity for (possibly) causing the damage. Until we know for sure it's all just speculation so advising him to get it fixed and then cover up the logo is stupid. 
I wasn't speculating either, I was just saying the customers that come in and immediately cry warranty when they know nothing about bicycles piss me off.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

izza said:


> If frame is broke by accidental damage then two parties have handled the frame after leaving Trek - Sigma and OP.
> 
> Presuming bike using a credit card then ask for payment to be returned for product not fit for purpose. At that point, Signa will take up the issue much more seriously.
> 
> ...


Yeah...ok.


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

I understand some of the scepticism i read many threads like this before buying the bike and concluded that somewhere the users must have somehow abused or accidentally damage the bikes. 
However, only relay on this forum what has happened to my bike. Nobody on here we'll make any final decisions on my bike the so I really have nothing to gain by clouding the facts. It wouldn't be helpful in order to get advice in any case.

Foolishly I didn't take photos of the bike myself before handing it over to Sigma. When I dropped it off the store manager unprompted commented on it being an obvious catastrophic failure of the frame and even commented on what frame i was likely to get in replacement etc
I trusted them to pursue this successfully.
I'm now going to go back to them and take proper photos. I will also ask them to talk me through how they concluded that I've done the damage accidentally myself and what steps I've taken to address my claim with trek. 
I'll report back with photos and the results of my discussions at the shop.. 
Thanks for all the comments so far.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

cxwrench said:


> I'm thinking there's something missing from the OP's story...we still haven't seen photos yet.


I'm starting to lean that way as well. The frame is four years old. I am thinking that if there was a structural failure built into the frame it would have shown up earlier. I have ridden carbon frames since 1992 and never seen a frame "weaken" over the years. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

Just to clarify I meant that the crack with all the way around the seat stay on the disc side.
If I did have an accident as they say - and if the bike was fit for purpose, if the accident was serious enough to crack the seat stays all around then I would think I would have been substantially more damaged and other areas of the bike would also obviously be damaged. Nothing like that has happened I have not been involved in any accidents no hospital no doctors etc


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

We will see. If the frame is 4 years old as someone else posted the odds of this being a warranty failure are extremely slim. If there were a problem w/ the construction of the frame it would've shown up much earlier. There is obviously a chance that I'm wrong as always, and I hope for the OP's sake that it is covered and that his story is what happened.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

aclinjury said:


> Sorry for your issue. Please post some closeup pics for us.
> 
> But Sigma needs to represent you better. You may need to take Sigma to small claim court to settle this if they are not willing to get this warranted.


Really? I guess when you post on the forum this is the advice you get.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

ataunque said:


> Just to clarify I meant that the crack with all the way around the seat stay on the disc side.
> If I did have an accident as they say - and if the bike was fit for purpose, if the accident was serious enough to crack the seat stays all around then I would think I would have been substantially more damaged and other areas of the bike would also obviously be damaged. Nothing like that has happened I have not been involved in any accidents no hospital no doctors etc


A friend of mine recently bad his bike dismount itself from his roof rack at 70 mph. We looked over the frame for a few minutes, until noticing that the left chainstay had cracked all the way around. I have seen bikes fall over in the wind that had more obvious damage than his hitting the highway at 70 mph.

Only point is that the apparent severity of the damage may not seem to correlate with the severity of the accident that caused the damage.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Well since nobody in here is a carbon expert, nobody really knows. But here is a carbon exerpt who discusses what can cause "JRA failures".

JRA failures can happen due to:

1. poor manufacturing
2. poor handling

How would one distinguish whether the failure is due to poor manufacturing or poor handling? This is the crux of the question and it will take an expert with specialized equipment to rigorously show if a failure was likely the result of poor manufacturing or end user handling.

And note, Leuscher Teknik mentions in the video that a JRA failure can take time to happen as the material become weaker and weaker over time until even a sub-critical load will make a material fail. So please stop all the misconception that "if a carbon bike is gonna fail, it's gonna fail early in its life, and if if fails later in its life then it has to be the user's fault". Trek offers a lifetime warranty, right? Then its frame has a lifetime to develop a JRA failure, does it not? To say that a 4-yr old carbon frame cannot fail due to manufacturing... makes absolutely zero sense.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

I think it's odd that the OP ends up w/ a crack all the way around his stay. It would take a massive error on the part of someone that does basically the same thing over and over. They take a container full of carbon pieces and lay them into a mold. To mess this up you'd need to put a bunch of pieces in the wrong place and/or end up w/ leftover pieces when you were done. I've seen how these pieces are shaped and how they go into a mold. There aren't any seams or joints on the stays, most of the pieces are nearly the length of the stay. I'm speculating a bit at this point as we still haven't seen any photos of the actual bike. Right now I'm skeptical, but definitely not convinced either way.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

My experience with Trek frame warranty is they stand behind their frames very well when it's an issue they legitimately own, they don't duck warranty claims in fact respond amazingly fast. I had a frame paint stress crack on a Domane at the joint near the Iso joint and after a picture was sent to them I had a new frame delivered to the shop 2 days later no questions asked.


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

I responded to Ataunque in another thread, where he had mentioned what happened to him to the poster of that thread was considering a carbon bike. Based on what Ataunque wrote, I expressed sympathy, condolences and a bit of anger at both the bike shop & Trek. 

Then, a short while later, I watched Ataunque start this thread, which is not bad and/or wrong...as he wanted a thread about what happened to him. Then I watched as some RBRers expressed sympathy, and condolences, but then, almost immediately, replies turned into what has become a SOP here on RBR: blame the poster, doubt the poster, almost reaching the point of calling him a liar, it was "his" fault, maybe he's even possibly a "manufacturer slanderer". 

It is at times perplexing & sad to watch this forum do this to people (especially someone with only 5 total posts to their name). There is no 'innocent till proven guilty' or 'trust' in what another human writes. Instincts here turn so quickly, like a pack of rabid dogs, almost like one would one expect given the current example being set by the POTUS and his administration. To wit: everyone first is a liar, until they prove they're telling the truth. And even if they do that, they are still a LIAR. You have very little time to prove yourself, as obvious by the minutes that passed where they (certain posters above) started insinuating that ataunque is the culprit here.

Ataunque, you need to get pictures up asap, if possible. If you don't, the RBR peanut-gallery sitting jury will issue its "final verdict", most likely today, that you are guilty of outright falsehoods, lying and manufacture slander. On RBR you do not have days to produce evidence, only hours, sometimes minutes, before they start in on you, or turn on you. I warned you of this in that other thread.

If you don't know how to get pictures posted to the RBR forum, which I could totally understand since you have only 5 total posts to your name, try to get someone to help you, and do try get them up today or tomorrow. If you need help, and you've got family and such obligations, post here and there are a few good souls of us left who will help you or walk you through posting a pic or two.

Hang in there, as there are many of RBR who are not immediate-on-the-spot Eastwick Witch burners, unlike the insinuations you've already seen so far.


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

Thank you for all your comments to date - both supportive and sceptical its always good to hear different points of view. 
I went into Sigma to take photos first thing this morning. 
I made a mistake, its the derallieur side that the crack is, not the disc side. I further realised that there are in fact 2 cracks, the main one a quarter of the way up the seat stay and another one right near the rear derallieur. 
I have attached photos of each crack. 
I have also attached photos of the seat and the handlebars. There is no damage on these - to ward off any suggestion that I have had a crash. 
I am at a total loss to figure out how this has happened. If I had a crash, i'd have known about it, especially one which so serious it cracked a high end carbon frame in two places. I will happily allow trek to look at my medical history to prove no injuries commensurate with this. 
If I had dropped something so large and heavy on it, there would be dents, buckled wheel, damaged spokes or something else to suggest a large trauma. 
There is nothing. 
There is a light scratch on the rear derallieur - this must have been where ive put the bike down on its side to take a wee or coffee break etc. 
Otherwise the bike is immaculate. 
Happy to hear any suggestions.


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

I also meant to add, I purchased the bike brand new from sigma sport in October 2015


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

ataunque said:


> I also meant to add, I purchased the bike brand new from sigma sport in October 2015


Wow, ok, some things are clear to me now.

One, let at the directional inflection of the carbon at the upper (outside) of the crack versus the same at the lower (inside) part of the crack.

That upper crack failed from the inside towards the outside, not from the outside in. It looks to me that when it failed and/or was failing, all force of the chainstay came up through the bike and then created the cracked seat stay, this time bringing force from the outside towards the inside. 

Second, to me this does not seem to come from a blow to bike, or even squeezing of the rear triangle, because the cracks would appear differently and also in different locations. I don't know what Sigma and/or Trek is smoking, but imho you've definitely got a case here. 

Looking further, you can't even argue, if one to remove the rear wheel, lay the bike on its side, and push/force down one triangle towards other, to see where the triangles would crack, because the nature of where the crack is smooth on the wrong sides. What I am saying is that where they gave out, this logic (a blow,a 
compression of the rear triangle) is completely argued against.

Third, this was not caused by the rider (you). Nor was it caused by lack of care by the rider/you. Or anything. It was a failure of the carbon tube at one point, ultimately causing another section of the tube to crack and fail. That drive side seat stay was most likely a incredibly bad piece of put together carbon before it even got to the bike.


Let's see what the other gurus on RBR say.




P.S. Another thread (this one) added to my browser folder why I am not ready to add a carbon frame to my steel/ti/alu stable yet. Stuff like this is spooky.....


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm not a carbon failure expert. However, having owned other carbon items that have broken from impact damage, usually there is a lot of splintering and fractures in multiple directions due to how they lay carbon in all directions. 

That said.. base don the OPs first post where Sigma noted a denied warranty claim and then tried to sell him a costly repair program.... That is reminiscent of sketchy automobile dealerships.. My guess is that they never contacted Trek at all, and took it upon themselves to make more money...


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

Srode said:


> My experience with Trek frame warranty is they stand behind their frames very well when it's an issue they legitimately own, they don't duck warranty claims in fact respond amazingly fast. I had a frame paint stress crack on a Domane at the joint near the Iso joint and after a picture was sent to them I had a new frame delivered to the shop 2 days later no questions asked.


Who paid for swapping the components from the old frame to the new frame? A friend of mine had a frame returned under warranty and had to pay $250 for the bike shop to swap the components from the old frame to the new one. Seems to me that Trek ought to cover that as well. He asked them to, and they said no.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

ljvb said:


> I'm not a carbon failure expert. However, having owned other carbon items that have broken from impact damage, usually there is a lot of splintering and fractures in multiple directions due to how they lay carbon in all directions.
> 
> That said.. base don the OPs first post where Sigma noted a denied warranty claim and then tried to sell him a costly repair program.... That is reminiscent of sketchy automobile dealerships.. My guess is that they never contacted Trek at all, and took it upon themselves to make more money...


What are you even talking about? Trek denied the claim, offered him a crash replacement frame at 1,200 so where do you get off saying that SIGMA denied him a warranty claim and SIGMA tried to sell him a costly repair program? And too boot you are now slandering SIGMA by comparing them to a sketchy auto dealership and insinuating they never even contacted Trek. Explain how SIGMA would make money by selling him a Domane 6.9 frame at 1,200, do you even have a clue as to what that frame would cost as a frame only purchase? Didn't think so. You should have the courtesy to either admit you incorrectly read the OP post or delete your comment.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

pmf said:


> Who paid for swapping the components from the old frame to the new frame? A friend of mine had a frame returned under warranty and had to pay $250 for the bike shop to swap the components from the old frame to the new one. Seems to me that Trek ought to cover that as well. He asked them to, and they said no.


There is not a single warranty that I've ever heard of that covers labor. Not even on my AC compressor, or my water heater, or my car. This is standard practice and it is specifically laid out in the warranty documents.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I agree with Belgianhammer's reasoning. Crack at the derailleur region could cause the crack at the stay higher up.

Let's examine the derailleur region though. There are 2 possibilities I see:

1. There is an exit hole for the cable. Every a hole is drill into carbon fiber, there are potential to introduce stress points. And these may become initiation points for failure over time.

2. This region is not a straight region, it's a bend. It's harder to get good compaction at a bend than at a straight section (eg, middle of a downtube), and at bends is where there would be more wrinkles and possibly voids due to the higher difficultly to get consistent compaction.

So, IMO, it's entirely possible that this crack is the result of manufacturing process.

There is also the possibility that Sigma hasn't sent this issue to Trek yet and is just trying to make the OP fork over $$$ by saying Trek denied the warranty too.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

BelgianHammer said:


> Wow, ok, some things are clear to me now.
> 
> One, let at the directional inflection of the carbon at the upper (outside) of the crack versus the same at the lower (inside) part of the crack.
> 
> ...


Furthermore,
the crack at the derailleur region initiated from the "inner side" (side nearest the cassette) to the outer side. This is definitely not a result of an external impact because an external impact would crack the outer side first and then would propagate to the inner side.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

As I posted in the other thread where Ataunque mentioned his issue, I know at least three people who had cracks develop in the downtubes of their more recent Trek OCLV frames without crashing, dropping off a car or any other "abuse or misuse" scenario. Trek came back and denied warranty coverage. My shop has stopped selling Trek for this reason as well other issues that are making Trek more difficult for a shop to deal with. And let me tell you, my shop does not take customers who try to sneak warranty repairs when abuse is obvious lightly.

The thing I really don't get here is how many posters in this thread are jumping down Sigma's throat. From what I can see, Trek weaseled out of another warranty claim which they are known for. Do you expect Sigma to pick up the tab that Trek wouldn't? If a bike shop did this every time a warranty was denied, they wouldn't be in business for very long. There is also no way you can expect a shop to pay for warranty labor as it's no fault of the shop that a frame failed.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Lombard said:


> As I posted in the other thread where Ataunque mentioned his issue, I know at least three people who had cracks develop in the downtubes of their more recent Trek OCLV frames without crashing, dropping off a car or any other "abuse or misuse" scenario. Trek came back and denied warranty coverage. My shop has stopped selling Trek for this reason as well other issues that are making Trek more difficult for a shop to deal with. And let me tell you, my shop does not take customers who try to sneak warranty repairs when abuse is obvious lightly.
> 
> The thing I really don't get here is how many posters in this thread are jumping down Sigma's throat. From what I can see, Trek weaseled out of another warranty claim which they are known for. Do you expect Sigma to pick up the tab that Trek wouldn't? If a bike shop did this every time a warranty was denied, they wouldn't be in business for very long. There is also no way you can expect a shop to pay for warranty labor as it's no fault of the shop that a frame failed.


Thanks for the perspective. I was admittedly a little harsh on Sigma partly due to the "reputation" that I've heard/seen by Trek warranty. I was and still am under the impression that a Trek warranty is almost like a Costco warranty, it's almost a gold standard. But perhaps times are a chagin'?

On a sidenote, I've been seeing great warranty service from Giant. I know at least 2 people who have their Giant frame cracked and they got warranted pretty quickly by their LBS. These are just my personal anecdotes though, pretty sure someone out there has a horrible Giant warranty story to tell!


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

202cycle said:


> There is not a single warranty that I've ever heard of that covers labor. Not even on my AC compressor, or my water heater, or my car. This is standard practice and it is specifically laid out in the warranty documents.


Really? Any warranty work I've had on vehicles did not involve a labor charge. I just had GE out on three different attempts to fix a washing machine at a rental property I own. It was under warranty. I never got a bill for parts or labor. In the end, they gave up and offered to replace it. Problem was, they'd taken so long, I had went out and bought a new unit after about a month, so after some back and forth, they agreed to send me a check. I paid $1100 for it including tax, delivery, hook up, etc. I think the check will be shy of $800. Seems like they should include that kind of stuff to make the consumer whole again. 

Same with Trek. They sent the bike to the shop mostly assembled. If the frame needs to be replaced, either replace the whole bike, or swap the parts. Its not the owner's fault. Why should he have to fork out $200 because Trek screwed up manufacturing the frame?

Just because they can get away with this kind of behavior doesn't make it smart business. The guy I mentioned above paid to have the parts swapped and then swore he'd never buy another Trek product.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

202cycle said:


> There is not a single warranty that I've ever heard of that covers labor. Not even on my AC compressor, or my water heater, or my car. This is standard practice and it is specifically laid out in the warranty documents.


ugh no that's not standard practice. There are a lot of warranties that will explicitly state different periods for "parts" and "labor". Maytag has such warranty: 1st year parts & labor, 2nd-10th year parts only

https://www.maytag.com/content/dam/global/documents/201404/warranty-W10648065-W.pdf

In our lab, all new analytical equipment initially come with parts and labor warranty, then we could choose to extend such warranties if we so wish.

When I brought my car in to have a brake master cylinder replaced, the repair shop gave me a 90-day labor warranty and 1-yr on the part.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> Thanks for the perspective. I was admittedly a little harsh on Sigma partly due to the "reputation" that I've heard/seen by Trek warranty. I was and still am under the impression that a Trek warranty is almost like a Costco warranty, it's almost a gold standard. But perhaps times are a chagin'?
> 
> On a sidenote, I've been seeing great warranty service from Giant. I know at least 2 people who have their Giant frame cracked and they got warranted pretty quickly by their LBS. These are just my personal anecdotes though, pretty sure someone out there has a horrible Giant warranty story to tell!


Since there isn't anybody out there that collects statistics the way political pollsters do, anecdotes and preponderance of evidence are all we have to go by.

Two companies that have excellent warranty support are Cannondale and Jamis. Here again, anecdotal and hearsay from area shops. That is good to hear that Giant has a good reputation. Bean counters should learn that satisfied customers will be repeat buyers. Nothing will turn a customer off to a brand like being blamed for something that is not their fault. Penny wise and pound foolish.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

pmf said:


> Really? Any warranty work I've had on vehicles did not involve a labor charge. I just had GE out on three different attempts to fix a washing machine at a rental property I own. It was under warranty. I never got a bill for parts or labor. In the end, they gave up and offered to replace it. Problem was, they'd taken so long, I had went out and bought a new unit after about a month, so after some back and forth, they agreed to send me a check. I paid $1100 for it including tax, delivery, hook up, etc. I think the check will be shy of $800. Seems like they should include that kind of stuff to make the consumer whole again.
> 
> Same with Trek. They sent the bike to the shop mostly assembled. If the frame needs to be replaced, either replace the whole bike, or swap the parts. Its not the owner's fault. Why should he have to fork out $200 because Trek screwed up manufacturing the frame?
> 
> Just because they can get away with this kind of behavior doesn't make it smart business. The guy I mentioned above paid to have the parts swapped and then swore he'd never buy another Trek product.


or a Specialized 
https://media.specialized.com/support/0000009968/0000009968_r3.pdf

Giant gives 60 days on labor, 
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/termsconditions

It will be hard to buy a bicycle with a warranty that covers labor. in 30 years, I've never seen it (that Giant 60 day thing probably cover about.01% of their claims).

That being said, as a service to my customers, my policy is not to charge for warranty repairs on bikes that were purchased at my store. It is a cost of customer retension I find well worth the time.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

202cycle said:


> It will be hard to buy a bicycle with a warranty that covers labor. in 30 years, I've never seen it (that Giant 60 day thing probably cover about.01% of their claims).
> 
> That being said, as a service to my customers, my policy is not to charge for warranty repairs on bikes that were purchased at my store. It is a cost of customer retension I find well worth the time.


That's smart of you. A couple hours of a mechanics time isn't worth losing a customer over. I don't think my friend ever went back to that shop either. 

I do think the norm when collecting on a warranty is parts and labor for appliances, cars, and just about anything else I can think of except bicycles. 

Are you in the U.S.? I know warranties are much more limited in Europe.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> As I posted in the other thread where Ataunque mentioned his issue, I know at least three people who had cracks develop in the downtubes of their more recent Trek OCLV frames without crashing, dropping off a car or any other "abuse or misuse" scenario. Trek came back and denied warranty coverage. My shop has stopped selling Trek for this reason as well other issues that are making Trek more difficult for a shop to deal with. And let me tell you, my shop does not take customers who try to sneak warranty repairs when abuse is obvious lightly.
> 
> The thing I really don't get here is how many posters in this thread are jumping down Sigma's throat. From what I can see, Trek weaseled out of another warranty claim which they are known for. Do you expect Sigma to pick up the tab that Trek wouldn't? If a bike shop did this every time a warranty was denied, they wouldn't be in business for very long. There is also no way you can expect a shop to pay for warranty labor as it's no fault of the shop that a frame failed.


We share opinions on lots of things but not this. Trek has excellent warranty coverage, I deal w/ it constantly for all sorts of little thing as well as frame damage. They have a great system and their warranty reps are very responsive. Because they are such a large company and build thousands of bikes they see a lot of warranty claims. Also due to their size and success they do a LOT of testing. They know how and why things fail. I can't remember seeing a warranty claim denied that I thought should be covered...on the other hand I've seen them replace frames that I would have denied if it were my call.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ljvb said:


> I'm not a carbon failure expert. However, having owned other carbon items that have broken from impact damage, usually there is a lot of splintering and fractures in multiple directions due to how they lay carbon in all directions.
> 
> That said.. base don the OPs first post where Sigma noted a denied warranty claim and then tried to sell him a costly repair program.... That is reminiscent of sketchy automobile dealerships.. My guess is that they never contacted Trek at all, and took it upon themselves to make more money...


Not sure how you'd think they'd make more money by not going through Trek. If they sell the customer a frame to replace the broken one _and don't go through Trek_ they're paying regular wholesale...if they sell it to the customer at the discounted price quoted earlier in the thread they'd cut their margin by half. Does that make sense to you?


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

I know this is not helpful and I’m not taking a shot at the shop that sold the bike, However, Getting warranty support is solely dependent on the dealer’s relationship and ability to work with Trek. Our local dealer is a magician and we’ve seen Trek cover some questionable items including bike frames and wheels, I think Trek cares about their rep and will warranty parts to keep their rep. The owner's ability to work with Trek was a huge factor in buying my Domane SLR and a great reason never to buy a bike off the web or a questionable shop. 

Personally, I would take another hard run on the bike shop and if unsuccessful find a carbon frame repair shop to have the failure-root cause evaluated and fixed, it’s still a great bike. If they can document the root cause as a manufacturing issue and take a few supporting pictures, you might be able to get them to pay up.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

Between seeing the pictures and using my carbon forensics and detective skills typical of some dude on the internet I can now tell you with the utmost confidence that I do not know what caused your frame to crack.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

I think the failure looks like the rear der area was hit causing the frame to crack. The inner crack is larger in the bottom of the seat stay b/c it was stretched passed point of failure. The outer side crack is smaller b/c it was under compression.

Go break a stick. The part of the stick that fails inder tension is the larger crack. Just like picture of the OP's frame.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Being that it's cracked on two places I also think it's caused from abuse.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

crit_boy said:


> I think the failure looks like the rear der area was hit causing the frame to crack. The inner crack is larger in the bottom of the seat stay b/c it was stretched passed point of failure. The outer side crack is smaller b/c it was under compression.
> 
> Go break a stick. The part of the stick that fails inder tension is the larger crack. Just like picture of the OP's frame.


I totally agree w/ you.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> We share opinions on lots of things but not this. Trek has excellent warranty coverage, I deal w/ it constantly for all sorts of little thing as well as frame damage. They have a great system and their warranty reps are very responsive. Because they are such a large company and build thousands of bikes they see a lot of warranty claims. Also due to their size and success they do a LOT of testing. They know how and why things fail. I can't remember seeing a warranty claim denied that I thought should be covered...on the other hand I've seen them replace frames that I would have denied if it were my call.


Interesting that you say this. Since you have worked in/owned a shop for some time, it would be difficult to say you are wrong.

Since you are on the opposite coast from me, I can only speculate that possibly the warranty centers/reps are different? Since Trek is so large, are these warranty centers regional?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Interesting that you say this. Since you have worked in/owned a shop for some time, it would be difficult to say you are wrong.
> 
> Since you are on the opposite coast from me, I can only speculate that possibly the warranty centers/reps are different? Since Trek is so large, are these warranty centers regional?


Nope, they're all in Waterloo. We've had a few different guys over the years and they've all been great. Our district manage(s) have constantly let us know that we should do whatever we can to keep the customer happy. Do special orders every day of the week? Sure, get what the customer wants. Charge for warranty rebuilds/service? Never. Spend time doing warranty stuff for component manufacturers? Absolutely, and no charge for labor on their stuff either. We had a guy recently that bought a bike (P1 Domane) at a store down on the SF peninsula and it was making this really weird noise that we could never pinpoint. We did everything at least twice. Let our warranty rep know what was going on and he bumped it up the chain...they're sending a new custom P1 frameset for the customer.


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## OldZaskar (Jul 1, 2009)

Can we see a pic of the rear derailleur - from the side?


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## BelgianHammer (Apr 10, 2012)

Well, ataunque, the beauty and wonder of being judge by a panel of your peers. 

It wasn't like you weren't warned.

The protection is fierce, as if it's not, the $$$$$ flow stops.


And for an FYI, Trek has and has had for a few years running now, one of thee worst word-of-mouth reputations (when it comes to honoring their frame warranty) in the Belgian/Netherlands/German/French corridor. And they are far and away, in fact no where near, the top bike (in terms of numbers) ridden here. Quite honestly, they don't even make the top 5. 

It's too bad this wasn't a Giant, Ridley, Canyon, or one of the other frame/bicycle manufacturers here. You'd been taken care of lickety-split.

I've forwarded your pictures (and links to this thread) to three different large clubs here. They keep track of this sort of thing, as new riders join all the time, and are always asking questions----especially since bikes cost so much nowadays.

Hope things work out for you, Ataunque, it is easy to see how some are applying "revisionist" history and literally willing the crack to have had happen one way, when in fact if you've actually worked with carbon (and not just sold them), and even better actually been through the process of of laying carbon up & curing it before mold closure, then a person can see clearly where it failed and how it immediately led to the second failure. Good luck to you!!!


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Nope, they're all in Waterloo. We've had a few different guys over the years and they've all been great. Our district manage(s) have constantly let us know that we should do whatever we can to keep the customer happy. Do special orders every day of the week? Sure, get what the customer wants. Charge for warranty rebuilds/service? Never. Spend time doing warranty stuff for component manufacturers? Absolutely, and no charge for labor on their stuff either. We had a guy recently that bought a bike (P1 Domane) at a store down on the SF peninsula and it was making this really weird noise that we could never pinpoint. We did everything at least twice. Let our warranty rep know what was going on and he bumped it up the chain...they're sending a new custom P1 frameset for the customer.


Waterloo! That's where their bikes were make until 2009 or 2010, correct?

Are you an exclusive Trek dealer or do you sell other brands? The reason I ask is that Trek seems to favor exclusive dealers. From what a couple of shops have told me, both Trek and Specialized require a minimum percentage of inventory to be able to sell their bikes.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Waterloo! That's where their bikes were make until 2009 or 2010, correct?
> 
> Are you an exclusive Trek dealer or do you sell other brands? The reason I ask is that Trek seems to favor exclusive dealers. From what a couple of shops have told me, both Trek and Specialized require a minimum percentage of inventory to be able to sell their bikes.


We are now actually owned by Trek, so no other bike brands. Yes, if you're an independent dealer they like to see a majority of product w/ Trek/Bontrager labels. 

I'm having a good time reading Hammer's posts...he's so certain that any other company would cover this damage under warranty. I might have to forward the photos to friends that work for other brands and see what they might say. Especially since all of Trek's carbon production that's done overseas is at the Giant facility in Taichung...


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

crit_boy said:


> I think the failure looks like the rear der area was hit causing the frame to crack.


Hit by what? By something that doesn't leave any other trace in that area? No scratch on the paint, nothing (as far as I can see on the photograph)? No damage to the hub, the derailleur still functioning, no bent spokes? 

It's possible, I suppose, but I don't find it very plausible.
Not saying the OP told us everything, but questions remain.

I admit I have new opinion on the experience Trek has with evaluating damaged frames. All they have is a picture and they know what happened. Their experience increased from n to n+1. Mmmm. 

I also have to confirm what BelgianHammer wrote about Trek racebikes in the Netherlands/Belgium/France. You see them less and less, which is strange in a cycling-mad area. In my own hometown alone - pop. 100 000 - there are 14 LBS, most of them selling racebikes. That's in a 4 mile radius around the city centre. In a 15 mile radius there must be at least 30.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

I feel like if the bike were on its side, and some heavy doofus stepped on it wrong, you could get a failure that looks like that. That could happen and the rest of the bike could appear undamaged, even potentially the wheel.


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## HFroller (Aug 10, 2014)

jetdog9 said:


> I feel like if the bike were on its side, and some heavy doofus stepped on it wrong, you could get a failure that looks like that. That could happen and the rest of the bike could appear undamaged, even potentially the wheel.


Yeah, and then there's the guy with the rubber-tipped chisel who happened to pass by and give the bike a few whacks, just in that spot, accidentally.

As I already suggested, we have only the story of the OP and a few photographs, so conclusions are difficult ... but questions remain.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

OP do you ever pick up the rear of your bike from the DS seatstay to perform tasks like shifting gears in your bike storage room or checking the indexing of your RD?


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

Seeing the frame has cracks in two separate places I think a trauma caused the damage.

Sorry OP you may not agree (and I am as unqualified as all of us unqualified people here) but to get cracking like that in two separate places and especially down at the seatstay chainstay joint I think your frame has had a knock from the side. What could do that? Well another rider's wheel for one.( If your bike was stationary upright and another rider hit your bike at some speed from the side) Bicycle frames are not designed to withstand force directly from the side. The cracks appear in the weakest areas of the seatstay but there is no way a systematic failure at the dropout end of the seat stay would crack it midway up, Forces on long strands of carbon don't work like that. 
I presume you maintain your frame and wash it fairly frequently. I would think that you would have seen any cracking developing if it was a manufacturing failure. 
I also think that a manufacturing failure wouldn't crack in two places. 
You may disagree and that is your right but you knew posting here you were perhaps going to get positive or negative feedback. 

So you have 3 years of riding out of the bicycle and TBH I think a repair is going to be dodgy. (It's in two places). If it were me I'd take the deal and ask Sigma if they can help you with labour building up your new frame. 
I have never owned a Trek and personally would never own one purely because I always thought (a) their early bikes were boring and uninspiring (b) Armstrong was a cheating prick. 
Good luck and sorry for your loss.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

ceugene said:


> OP do you ever pick up the rear of your bike from the DS seatstay to perform tasks like shifting gears in your bike storage room or checking the indexing of your RD?


that wouldn't do that damage. IMHO


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Kinda looks like it was stuffed in a hatchback and the lid was pressed down on it... sorry OP


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Is there a mark on the inside of the seat stay below the crack or is that a shadow? that chain stay looks like it cracked from flexing to the outside either compression at the dropouts could do that if a wheel wasn't in it, or maybe from something hitting the inside of the stay and pushing it out in the middle? Did you put it in a travel bag wheels off or something without something across the rear dropout at one time?


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Two questions.....Did you register your bike with trek when you bought it???
and
Is your warranty 2 years, or Lifetime?
Trek Care. Once your Trek Bicycle is registered the Trek Bicycle Corporation provides each original retail purchaser of a Trek bicycle a warranty against defects in materials and workmanship, as stated below:


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Two questions.....Did you register your bike with trek when you bought it???
> and
> Is your warranty 2 years, or Lifetime?
> Trek Care. Once your Trek Bicycle is registered the Trek Bicycle Corporation provides each original retail purchaser of a Trek bicycle a warranty against defects in materials and workmanship, as stated below:


It's lifetime on ALL Trek frames.


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## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> It's lifetime on ALL Trek frames.





And your purchase receipt is your proof of warranty. All the "registering" process does is give them an e-mail and address to which they can send recall notices - as well as give their marketing department information about their customers.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

jaggrin said:


> What are you even talking about? Trek denied the claim, offered him a crash replacement frame at 1,200 so where do you get off saying that SIGMA denied him a warranty claim and SIGMA tried to sell him a costly repair program? And too boot you are now slandering SIGMA by comparing them to a sketchy auto dealership and insinuating they never even contacted Trek. Explain how SIGMA would make money by selling him a Domane 6.9 frame at 1,200, do you even have a clue as to what that frame would cost as a frame only purchase? Didn't think so. You should have the courtesy to either admit you incorrectly read the OP post or delete your comment.


You are coming off a little defensive.. do you have a financial interest or some other tie to SIGMA.

I may or may not have misread the OP's original post. And yes, I am fully aware of the cost of a replacement frame. I also did not suggest anywhere in my post that a replacement frame would be 1200. The key word from the OP is "crash replacement program", not buy a new frame program. Now I am a on a Giant for road and Niner for mtn, so I am not familiar with Trek programs. But from the mere description, it sounds just like every other "replacement" program for any industry. They tend to have a much higher profit margin for the vendor selling them, and acts like third party insurance. I.E. 1000 people buy into the program, but only 1 or 2 make a claim against the program.. 

Is the program bad, no, although in many cases they are not worth the cost. But they tend to be pushed by retailers because they are pure profit, so yes, I as comparing them to a sketchy dealer if SIGMA failed to submit a warranty claim and tried to push the replacement program.

The OP noted his single point of contact was SIGMA. They were the ones to relay the denied warranty claim. Did they submit the warranty, who knows, maybe they did and it did get rejected.

Also, read my statement more carefully, I never stated anything as fact, only my opinion (by stating "My guess").


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> We are now actually owned by Trek, so no other bike brands.


Interesting. A rumor has it that Trek will soon be selling bikes directly bypassing bike stores. This maneuver sounds like a start in that direction. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that generally bike companies sell to shops at around 60% of MSRP. So if Trek sells directly for MSRP, they are making 67% more than if they go through retailers. Of course few shops actually get MSRP and it's doubtful that Trek will charge that for a direct purchase - otherwise why would a consumer bypass a shop and have to deal with all the initial headaches themselves? A shop certainly won't give them any hand-holding down the road for an internet bike purchase. But this scenario sure sets up Trek to increase their bottom line.

The fact that Trek bought your shop effectively eliminates a middle-man. Sure, Trek is absorbing the cost of running a brick and mortar shop, but they have eliminated any potential conflicts of dealing with an "outside entity" so-to-say.

Considering the conflicting information there is on Trek warranty service, I really have to wonder of Trek is playing some favoritism to customers who buy from their own shops or shops who are 100% Trek retailers. This certainly wouldn't be very good publicity for Trek, but if Trek's objective is to p!ss off multiple-brand shop owners into discontinuing the Trek brand, it could eventually increase their bottom line even if it turns off many consumers to the Trek brand. Now just let me say that I dismiss most conspiracy theories. However, this is the only conclusion I can come up with.

In my circles (and I belong to a very large club and talk to many riders), I have only heard warranty complaints about Trek. Even though Specialized has a questionable business model and customer service "reputation" (and I am no fan of Specialized), I have yet to know anybody who has been denied a reasonable warranty claim through them or any other brand. Just saying.



cxwrench said:


> I'm having a good time reading Hammer's posts...he's so certain that any other company would cover this damage under warranty.* I might have to forward the photos to friends that work for other brands and see what they might say. *


I would certainly like to hear what they have to say. Keep is posted! :thumbsup:



cxwrench said:


> Especially since all of Trek's carbon production that's done overseas is at the Giant facility in Taichung...


This may or may not answer all the questions as to why defects happen. Maybe the same facility, but specs on both bikes will be different. Not to mention that manufacturing defects aren't the only reason things go wrong. There could be design flaws as well, though in that case, one might think there would be more instances of a particular problem, but maybe not.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Lombard said:


> Interesting. A rumor has it that Trek will soon be selling bikes directly bypassing bike stores. This maneuver sounds like a start in that direction. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that generally bike companies sell to shops at around 60% of MSRP. So if Trek sells directly for MSRP, they are making 67% more than if they go through retailers. Of course few shops actually get MSRP and it's doubtful that Trek will charge that for a direct purchase - otherwise why would a consumer bypass a shop and have to deal with all the initial headaches themselves? A shop certainly won't give them any hand-holding down the road for an internet bike purchase. But this scenario sure sets up Trek to increase their bottom line.
> 
> The fact that Trek bought your shop effectively eliminates a middle-man. Sure, Trek is absorbing the cost of running a brick and mortar shop, but they have eliminated any potential conflicts of dealing with an "outside entity" so-to-say.
> 
> ...


I really think the reason that people ***** about warranty coverage is that they don't understand what 'warranty for defects in materials/workmanship' actually means. I've heard some completely outlandish stories about what customers think should be covered. People seem to forget that bikes are designed to be ridden. Not dropped, not crashed, not having stuff dropped on them.

I also don't think that Trek gives preferential service to stores they own over independent Trek dealers. We were one for years and I can't say that our service has changed one bit since becoming a Trek owned store.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> I really think the reason that people ***** about warranty coverage is that they don't understand what 'warranty for defects in materials/workmanship' actually means.* I've heard some completely outlandish stories about what customers think should be covered. *People seem to forget that bikes are designed to be ridden. Not dropped, not crashed, not having stuff dropped on them.


The owner at my shop once showed me a bike someone brought in where the brake lever had broken clean off. She wanted him to put it in for warranty coverage. ut: Ummm, like, no way.

As far as the OP's situation, as the saying goes, there are three sides to every story. I would certainly be curious to hear what your friends who work for other brands say about this.


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## Rider07 (Feb 25, 2007)

I have not seen so many broken bike frames. However, in a past life I used to make a lot of carbon parts. From the thread, I would agree that Trek and others that have seen a lot of broken frames from crashes should have an idea what caused the damage- Provided the damage shown is consistent with a type of crash or abuse. But, I have to question how someone is coming to a definitive conclusion without opening the damaged area up? If this tube has any voids or delamination's in the laminate that occurred during the manufacturing you are not likely going to see them through the paint. Not that Trek wants to cut up the frame to see if there was a problem in the manufacturing process, but as someone who has opened up failed carbon parts I just don't see how anyone really knows. Unless of course, someone has consistently seen this exact damage as the result of a crash or some other type of abuse or accident. I did not read anything here that implies this is typical crash damage, so, I am very sceptical.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Rider07 said:


> I have not seen so many broken bike frames. However, in a past life I used to make a lot of carbon parts. From the thread, I would agree that Trek and others that have seen a lot of broken frames from crashes should have an idea what caused the damage- Provided the damage shown is consistent with a type of crash or abuse. But, I have to question how someone is coming to a definitive conclusion without opening the damaged area up? If this tube has any voids or delamination's in the laminate that occurred during the manufacturing you are not likely going to see them through the paint. Not that Trek wants to cut up the frame to see if there was a problem in the manufacturing process, but as someone who has opened up failed carbon parts I just don't see how anyone really knows. Unless of course, someone has consistently seen this exact damage as the result of a crash or some other type of abuse or accident. I did not read anything here that implies this is typical crash damage, so, I am very sceptical.


As I've posted before, Trek does a LOT of testing with all of their bikes. They know how and why things fail and what it looks like. They also know what crash damage or other not 'JRA' damage looks like. I've talked to a few of their carbon engineers in person and they can pretty much tell just from looking at most damage how it happened because they've seen it all before. They are familiar w/ much more of this than we are. Over the last 20+ years I've seen a ton of it as well (pro bike racers crash and brake **** like nobody's business) so I'm getting better at figuring out how damage occurred. The main thing the warranty guys learn is how to determine if damage happened from a crash or impact (not warranty) or some type of structural failure (a warranty item).


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

FWIW Trek is been pretty straightforward with everyone I have know when there are issues.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Lombard said:


> Interesting. A rumor has it that Trek will soon be selling bikes directly bypassing bike stores. This maneuver sounds like a start in that direction. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that generally bike companies sell to shops at around 60% of MSRP. So if Trek sells directly for MSRP, they are making 67% more than if they go through retailers. Of course few shops actually get MSRP and it's doubtful that Trek will charge that for a direct purchase - otherwise why would a consumer bypass a shop and have to deal with all the initial headaches themselves? A shop certainly won't give them any hand-holding down the road for an internet bike purchase. But this scenario sure sets up Trek to increase their bottom line.
> 
> The fact that Trek bought your shop effectively eliminates a middle-man. Sure, Trek is absorbing the cost of running a brick and mortar shop, but they have eliminated any potential conflicts of dealing with an "outside entity" so-to-say.
> 
> ...


Trek has so far been committed to their current online model. You can buy bikes from the website, but they must be shipped to a dealer for final assembly and inspection. There has been no indication that this will change because Trek does not want to alienate its biggest source of revenue...the IBD. Industry-wide online sales amount to a low single-digit percentage of total revenue while IBD sales make up around 50%.

Margins on bicycles are generally around 36%, but profits aren’t the only number that matters. Brands are in a constant battle for market share and mind share...aka volume matters. Selling direct is no guarantee of increased sales volume, while it will most definitely cause LBS owners to reconsider selling the brand. I live in the Bay Area which is flooded with Mike’s Bikes...the largest chain of Specialized dealers in the world. I’ll give you one guess what bike brand dominates the scene here. I would say Specialized outsells Trek 2:1 in the Bay Area when nationwide that ratio is 1:2. Having a local/regional presence matters.

For reference, look at what happened to Raleigh. 5 years ago Raleigh was in a tight battle with Redline for 4th highest market share in the US behind Trek, Giant and Specialized...ahead of Cannondale, Scott, etc. Now look at how poorly Accell handled their attempt at growth. They took the omni-channel approach...started selling bikes direct, started selling bikes on Amazon, started selling through Dick’s, Sports Chalet, Sports Authority... where are they now? The two largest local Raleigh dealers dropped them. One picked up Giant and the other picked up Cannondale. Raleigh and DiamondBack are not making Accell any money and they’ve been trying to sell the brands for about a year. There were rumors of Pon Holdings buying them, but that never came to fruition.

The money Trek makes from running a “Factory Store” doesn’t come from eliminating the middleman cut, it comes from inventory control. Almost all their product can come directly from Dexter and not from QBP or Hawley. Bontrager accessories will be sold at a much higher attachment rate than regular Trek dealers.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ceugene said:


> Trek has so far been committed to their current online model. You can buy bikes from the website, but they must be shipped to a dealer for final assembly and inspection. There has been no indication that this will change because Trek does not want to alienate its biggest source of revenue...the IBD. Industry-wide online sales amount to a low single-digit percentage of total revenue while IBD sales make up around 50%.
> 
> Margins on bicycles are generally around 36%, but profits aren’t the only number that matters. Brands are in a constant battle for market share and mind share...aka volume matters. Selling direct is no guarantee of increased sales volume, while it will most definitely cause LBS owners to reconsider selling the brand. I live in the Bay Area which is flooded with Mike’s Bikes...the largest chain of Specialized dealers in the world. I’ll give you one guess what bike brand dominates the scene here. I would say Specialized outsells Trek 2:1 in the Bay Area when nationwide that ratio is 1:2.
> 
> ...


Yep...^all of this^


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

ceugene said:


> ... Trek does not want to alienate its biggest source of revenue...the IBD.


Is that more like an IED or an IUD?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tomato coupe said:


> Is that more like an IED or an IUD?


What's your comment supposed to mean?


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> What's your comment supposed to mean?


What's IBD?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tomato coupe said:


> What's IBD?


Independent Bicycle Dealer...and your sense of humor sucks.


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

cxwrench said:


> Independent Bicycle Dealer...and your sense of humor sucks.


Thanks for the definition.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Admittedly it's a dumb acronym, but I've gotten used to using "IBD" when discussing broad bike industry topics and reserve "LBS" for more personal/familial topics. LBS is usually prefaced with "your" and IBD never is.


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

ceugene said:


> Admittedly it's a dumb acronym, but I've gotten used to using "IBD" when discussing broad bike industry topics and reserve "LBS" for more personal/familial topics. LBS is usually prefaced with "your" and IBD never is.


I don't think it's dumb, I just didn't know what it stood for.


----------



## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

By way of update, i seem to have reached the end of the road with this claim. 
Sigma and Trek are adamant that i have caused the damage myself. They say that the type of crack and the way it looks leads them to that conclusion - and they say its irrefutable. 

I've put counter arguments to them in various emails, cracks looking like they're inside to out etc etc etc but they've made up their minds. 

They say this is treks view and they concur with it - based on hi res images theyve sent to them. 

I am given the choice now to select a domane slr9 frame - and for £1250 under the crash replacement programme they will strip my old bike and put all the components (all di2) onto the new frame. 

I've asked them every which way and this is where we've got to. I dont think theres any independent appeal/review process so this is where we've got to. 

i was minded just to walk away, strip the bike and bin the frame - i have an old serotta ottrot in great condition, its got dura ace on it but 10 years old. so i was minded to put the di2 kit on that bike. but thinking about it in the cold light of day, the slr9 disc domane is worth putting £1250 into - even if i end up selling it, which i dont think i will. 

kr


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ceugene said:


> Admittedly it's a dumb acronym, but I've gotten used to using "IBD" when discussing broad bike industry topics and reserve "LBS" for more personal/familial topics. LBS is usually prefaced with "your" and IBD never is.


Admittedly, I didn't know what IBD stood for either. A Google search answered my question. :thumbsup: I've always used LBS, but what you said about the differences between these two terms makes sense.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> On a sidenote, *I've been seeing great warranty service from Giant.* I know at least 2 people who have their Giant frame cracked and they got warranted pretty quickly by their LBS. These are just my personal anecdotes though, pretty sure someone out there has a horrible Giant warranty story to tell!


Maybe not:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ge...014-defy-advanced-1-a-364481.html#post5232324


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

ataunque said:


> By way of update, i seem to have reached the end of the road with this claim.
> 
> i was minded just to walk away, strip the bike and bin the frame - i have an old serotta ottrot in great condition, its got dura ace on it but 10 years old. so i was minded to put the di2 kit on that bike. *but thinking about it in the cold light of day*, the slr9 disc domane is worth putting £1250 into - even if i end up selling it, which i dont think i will.
> kr


I feel sorry for you but what you are doing is the best, logical thing to do. You are getting a brand new frame, that you like, for a very good price. Try to let go of the bad experience and if it's any consolation, most of us here think Trek and Sigma aren't trying to shaft you. Now when you get that new bike from Sigma ride it like you stole it. Oh and as a nice wrap up for this thread perhaps a pic or two and your impressions of the final experience. cheers


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> I think it's odd that the OP ends up w/ a crack all the way around his stay. It would take a massive error on the part of someone that does basically the same thing over and over. They take a container full of carbon pieces and lay them into a mold. To mess this up you'd need to put a bunch of pieces in the wrong place and/or end up w/ leftover pieces when you were done. I've seen how these pieces are shaped and how they go into a mold. There aren't any seams or joints on the stays, most of the pieces are nearly the length of the stay. I'm speculating a bit at this point as we still haven't seen any photos of the actual bike. Right now I'm skeptical, but definitely not convinced either way.


well you're right about something. you really don't know anything about carbon fibre compared to Raoul Luescher, but are always hasty to prejudge the bike owner

the OP still owns the frame so maybe he'll get it back and show us some pics. However that will still be inconclusive as none of us are actually engineers with experience in composites.


----------



## bradkay (Nov 5, 2013)

BCSaltchucker said:


> well you're right about something. you really don't know anything about carbon fibre compared to Raoul Luescher, but are always hasty to prejudge the bike owner
> 
> the OP still owns the frame so maybe he'll get it back and show us some pics. However that will still be inconclusive as none of us are actually engineers with experience in composites.


If he is taking the crash replacement offer, then the bike shop is obligated to destroy the frame.


----------



## musicmaster (May 7, 2010)

I won't lie -- this is why I'm a big proponent of the Chinese open mold frames and DIY the bike build. For the cost of one replacement frame from Trek (or Giant in the other thread), you could have gotten 3 Chinese frames, not to mention the lower up-front cost as well. 

These aren't the first posts I've seen with questionable warranty denials from the major manufacturers.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

BCSaltchucker said:


> well you're right about something. *you really don't know anything about carbon fibre compared to Raoul Luescher,* but are always hasty to prejudge the bike owner
> 
> the OP still owns the frame so maybe he'll get it back and show us some pics. However that will still be inconclusive as none of us are actually engineers with experience in composites.


Yeah, ok. And you?


----------



## BCSaltchucker (Jul 20, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> Yeah, ok. And you?


me? I'd feel fairly powerless. not an expert and not qualified to find and hire the right kind of expert. like I said the Giant crack thread, manufacturer = in the catbird seat


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

musicmaster said:


> I won't lie -- this is why I'm a big proponent of the Chinese open mold frames and DIY the bike build. For the cost of one replacement frame from Trek (or Giant in the other thread), you could have gotten 3 Chinese frames, not to mention the lower up-front cost as well.
> 
> These aren't the first posts I've seen with questionable warranty denials from the major manufacturers.


I used to be very anti-chinese frames. But lately, I'm thinking like you are. The perpetual "chinese ebay frame" thread definitely has me more and more convinced that chinese frames are perhaps the better alternatives


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Lombard said:


> Maybe not:
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/ge...014-defy-advanced-1-a-364481.html#post5232324


that's why I said someone will have a horrible Giant warranty as I tout it. Seems like frame warranty within the bicycle industry is sort of like russian roulette


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## musicmaster (May 7, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> I used to be very anti-chinese frames. But lately, I'm thinking like you are. The perpetual "chinese ebay frame" thread definitely has me more and more convinced that chinese frames are perhaps the better alternatives


I had mine since 2011 - had a crash (my fault), cracking a chainstay. $375 later and I have a new frame. As long as you stick with a few of the "major" manufacturers, few people seem to have issues. 

I get it -- they aren't as light, stiff or as aero as name brand frames. But I'm not pushing 1000+ watts (even if I did, it wouldn't be for more than a second or two anyways) and I'm not getting paid to ride. 

When I got two quotes to repair the carbon on my broken frame ranging from $250-300, it made zero sense to both repairing it when a new one was $100 more and I wouldn't have that "what if" in the back of my mind, given the weakened frame.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

ataunque said:


> By way of update, i seem to have reached the end of the road with this claim.
> Sigma and Trek are adamant that i have caused the damage myself. They say that the type of crack and the way it looks leads them to that conclusion - and they say its irrefutable.
> 
> I've put counter arguments to them in various emails, cracks looking like they're inside to out etc etc etc but they've made up their minds.
> ...


hold on. Ok if you want to repair the frame route, then check around to see if a local carbon repair could do it for less. 1250 pounds sounds like A LOT!!! A friend of mine had crashed his frame and broke it in 3 places, and a local shop here charged him 600 USD for the whole repair, including painting. If you're out in the boonies then you may not local repair shops though


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

musicmaster said:


> I had mine since 2011 - had a crash (my fault), cracking a chainstay. $375 later and I have a new frame. As long as you stick with a few of the "major" manufacturers, few people seem to have issues.
> 
> I get it -- they aren't as light, stiff or as aero as name brand frames. But I'm not pushing 1000+ watts (even if I did, it wouldn't be for more than a second or two anyways) and I'm not getting paid to ride.
> 
> When I got two quotes to repair the carbon on my broken frame ranging from $250-300, it made zero sense to both repairing it when a new one was $100 more and I wouldn't have that "what if" in the back of my mind, given the weakened frame.


exactly dude. A few guys here are also buying the Hong fu and the well known ones on aliexpress and so far all of them seem to be riding just fine. Definitely has me thinking why should we pay $4000 for a carbon frame when a $400 one serves 99% of the purpose?? And we don't have to anguish over crashing and/or going through warranty. Every time I see a warranty denied thread such as this, I'm thinking "maybe better to just buy some hongfu/dengfu frame!"


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> exactly dude. A few guys here are also buying the Hong fu and the well known ones on aliexpress and so far all of them seem to be riding just fine. Definitely has me thinking why should we pay $4000 for a carbon frame when a $400 one serves 99% of the purpose?? And we don't have to anguish over crashing and/or going through warranty. Every time I see a warranty denied thread such as this, I'm thinking "maybe better to just buy some hongfu/dengfu frame!"


Or just buy a steel frame.  

All I can say is if the Chinese knock off brands do carbon frames as well as they do carbon wheels, I would run the other way!


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## musicmaster (May 7, 2010)

Lombard said:


> Or just buy a steel frame.
> 
> All I can say is if the Chinese knock off brands do carbon frames as well as they do carbon wheels, I would run the other way!


As always, do research first and find a reliable manufacturer. Plenty of happy carbon wheel customers in the Chinese Wheels thread as well. 

I remember a LBS guy saying I was "crazy" for riding one as he knew someone who had a steerer tube crack on their Chinese carbon bike. My reply was Trek had the same issue 8 year back (with cracking steerer tubes) and if they didn't use a torque wrench when building the bike, there's a good chance they over-torqued the fork and did the damage themselves. 

The fact remains that there's thousands of these bikes out there and looking online, there's few reports of issues, even after long-term use.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> All I can say is if the Chinese knock off brands do carbon frames as well as they do carbon wheels, I would run the other way!


That may be true in your little experience bubble, but there are lots and lots of happy Chinese wheel customers out there.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> That may be true in your little experience bubble, but there are lots and lots of happy Chinese wheel customers out there.


This has to be one of the weakest arguments I've seen in awhile. Now Factory Feel, lets put on our thinking caps. Let's say hypothetically, a product has a 10% failure rate - a pretty pathetic failure rate I'm sure you will agree. That means that 90% of those products didn't fail. So there is a good chance that close to 90% of those users are happy with their purchase. That does not mean it's a good reliable product.

Did you miss the threads on this forum about spoke hole bulges on Chinese carbon rims?


----------



## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

How many people here with chinese carbon clinchers routinely go down technical descents? I frankly don’t trust any rim-brake carbon clinchers long term when the resins go through tens of thousands of heat cycles near glass temperature. It’s why I’m on disc and will never go back to rim-brakes.


----------



## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

I feel this thread turning into a different direction.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> It's lifetime on ALL Trek frames.


With the exception that Trek doesn't honour it as we have seen in that thread.

The power lies with the consumer though: stop buying China made Trek frames with zero warranty and frame structure unfit for daily use.

To the OP: you live in the UK. Have you considered bringing the case and Trek to the ,,Small Claims Court"?


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

ataunque said:


> By way of update, i seem to have reached the end of the road with this claim.
> Sigma and Trek are adamant that i have caused the damage myself. They say that the type of crack and the way it looks leads them to that conclusion - and they say its irrefutable.
> 
> I've put counter arguments to them in various emails, cracks looking like they're inside to out etc etc etc but they've made up their minds.
> ...


Don't get me wrong OP.

You get my sympathy (see also my other post).

However, you don't get my sympathy for jumping on the crash replacement wagon and throwing again money at Trek. By doing so you and not having learned your lesson you really deserve how the *******s from Trek treated you.


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

aclinjury said:


> hold on. Ok if you want to repair the frame route, then check around to see if a local carbon repair could do it for less. 1250 pounds sounds like A LOT!!! A friend of mine had crashed his frame and broke it in 3 places, and a local shop here charged him 600 USD for the whole repair, including painting. If you're out in the boonies then you may not local repair shops though


Trek knows how top rip off and shaft customers.

The problem cannot easily be eradicated because there are so many stupid customers around and Trek knows it.

Like the guy who was being sent 7 (seven) defective (blowouts) Schwalbe road tyres and still kept on riding them. Unbelievable.


----------



## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

aclinjury said:


> hold on. Ok if you want to repair the frame route, then check around to see if a local carbon repair could do it for less. 1250 pounds sounds like A LOT!!! A friend of mine had crashed his frame and broke it in 3 places, and a local shop here charged him 600 USD for the whole repair, including painting. If you're out in the boonies then you may not local repair shops though


The damage at the dropout seems like a difficult repair, but yes, usually it’s around $200 per major tube and closer to $100 for clean seatstay cracks.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dracula said:


> With the exception that Trek doesn't honour it as we have seen in that thread.
> 
> The power lies with the consumer though: stop buying China made Trek frames with zero warranty and frame structure unfit for daily use.
> 
> To the OP: you live in the UK. Have you considered bringing the case and Trek to the ,,Small Claims Court"?


So you're a carbon engineer? Work in the bicycle industry, do ya?


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ceugene said:


> The damage at the dropout seems like a difficult repair, but yes, usually it’s around $200 per major tube and closer to $100 for clean seatstay cracks.


I would pass on having that dropout repaired.


----------



## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

cxwrench said:


> So you're a carbon engineer? Work in the bicycle industry, do ya?


So weird to see Trek warranty related hate when it’s still the gold standard in the industry.


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> So you're a carbon engineer? Work in the bicycle industry, do ya?


With your Trek bias you completely discredited yourself in that thread.


Trek didn't inspect the frame. Or did they?


They just had a high school kid with spots investigate the pictures. There was no Carbon engineer involved. The OP was never being told what has happened. Trek only told him everything may have happened that a-priori rules out a warranty claim.

That is the reason why I thought it maybe a good idea to go to the small claims court because then maybe the judge orders the investigation by a proper carbon engineer with a PhD or Trek would have to produce the findings of their investigation.

I stopped having sympathy with the cycling industry and its demise: ,,greed eats brain."


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dracula said:


> With your Trek bias you completely discredited yourself in that thread.
> 
> 
> Trek didn't inspect the frame. Or did they?
> ...


You have no clue. And given my job I'm about as un-biased as they come, trust me.


----------



## nOOky (Mar 20, 2009)

I've had two frames warrantied through Trek. Both times they had to send the frames in to be checked out. Both times I feel I was treated more than fairly. The first frame that failed back in 2002 they gave me a new frame and offered me any current color scheme I wanted. Also I never paid to have the parts switched over.

I would hound the bicycle shop and call Trek myself.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

But that doesn’t fit dracula’s narrative.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ceugene said:


> But that doesn’t fit dracula’s narrative.


And _his_ experience is what matters for everyone.


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

Since when is Trek the gold standard for warranties? Weren't they denying claims because people weren't using proprietary parts like bontrager stems and whatever crap wheels they put out?

I owned an oclv 5220 and 2 y-foils between 1998 and 2003. I'd never buy one again.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> Since when is Trek the gold standard for warranties? Weren't they denying claims because people weren't using proprietary parts like bontrager stems and whatever crap wheels they put out?
> 
> I owned an oclv 5220 and 2 y-foils between 1998 and 2003. I'd never buy one again.


No, that's not correct. Over the last 25 or so years I've worked at shops that have sold pretty much everything. Literally. Trek, Fisher, Klein, Bontrager(old Santa Cruz Bontrager) Santa Cruz, Ibis, Waterford, Bianchi, Lemond, Orbea, Wilier, Ron Cooper, Seven, Merlin, Scott, Cervelo, Marin...I'm sure there are more but you get the idea. I have no experience w/ Specialized or Giant. I'd have to say that the 2 best CS departments in the industry...IME...are SRAM and Trek. No bull ****. Shimano has gotten a LOT better, probably because of SRAM. Scott used to be good, no idea how they are now. 
I have NEVER seen nor heard of Trek denying a warranty for ANY stupid reason. On the contrary I've had them replace stuff that they probably shouldn't have. You hear stuff from people that have been denied a warranty but you never (most likely) know the real story. Everybody thinks their cracked/broken/whatever frame should be a warranty. I hear the JRA crap all the time. I deal w/ them every damn day of the week and they do a damn good job. Say what you will as the result of your very narrow and limited experience, but I'll probably be around for quite a while to let people know how it really is when stories like this come up.


----------



## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Add ENVE to the list of really great customer service. ENVE did not hesitate to replace a rim of mine that had minor chips on the edge due to porosity. They replaced my friend’s 25000mi set of 6.7s after 3.5 years of hilly riding because the brake tracks showed signs of delamination.

Stages too. While Stages gen1 PM housings were poorly designed, they made good by replacing all of them with gen2s for free...even post warranty period.

These are the warranty experiences that stood out to me in the past couple years.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ceugene said:


> Add ENVE to the list of really great customer service. ENVE did not hesitate to replace a rim of mine that had minor chips on the edge due to porosity. They replaced my friend’s 25000mi set of 6.7s after 3.5 years of hilly riding because the brake tracks showed signs of delamination.
> 
> Stages too. While Stages gen1 PM housings were poorly designed, they made good by replacing all of them with gen2s for free...even post warranty period.
> 
> These are the warranty experiences that stood out to me in the past couple years.


Right you are, they're both good. Stages CS reps have really stood out IME.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Add Feedback Sports to the good CS list.


----------



## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Add Zipp to the list also, they recalled and replaced the hub on my ole 101s and included new spokes.


----------



## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

IBIS, always deliver great CS. And Scott is only an email away.


----------



## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> No, that's not correct. Over the last 25 or so years I've worked at shops that have sold pretty much everything. Literally. Trek, Fisher, Klein, Bontrager(old Santa Cruz Bontrager) Santa Cruz, Ibis, Waterford, Bianchi, Lemond, Orbea, Wilier, Ron Cooper, Seven, Merlin, Scott, Cervelo, Marin...I'm sure there are more but you get the idea. I have no experience w/ Specialized or Giant. I'd have to say that the 2 best CS departments in the industry...IME...are SRAM and Trek. No bull ****. Shimano has gotten a LOT better, probably because of SRAM. Scott used to be good, no idea how they are now.
> I have NEVER seen nor heard of Trek denying a warranty for ANY stupid reason. On the contrary I've had them replace stuff that they probably shouldn't have. You hear stuff from people that have been denied a warranty but you never (most likely) know the real story. Everybody thinks their cracked/broken/whatever frame should be a warranty. I hear the JRA crap all the time. I deal w/ them every damn day of the week and they do a damn good job. Say what you will as the result of your very narrow and limited experience, but I'll probably be around for quite a while to let people know how it really is when stories like this come up.



Wow! How dare we disagree with expert. How far up their a--es are you? BTW, how do you know my experience is narrow and limited?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> Wow! How dare we disagree with expert. How far up their a--es are you? BTW, how do you know my experience is narrow and limited?


Your post doesn't deserve an answer. Get some class.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> BTW, how do you know my experience is narrow and limited?


Tell us what you're experience is.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

factory feel said:


> Tell us what you're experience is.


I'm interested in this as well. :Yawn:


----------



## ogre (Dec 16, 2005)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> I owned ...... 2 y-foils between 1998 and 2003. I'd never buy one again.


That's not saying much. And I'm 99% sure Trek was out of the flying-Y business by 1998.


----------



## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> Wow! How dare we disagree with expert. How far up their a--es are you? BTW, how do you know my experience is narrow and limited?


Obviously small samples aren't to be trusted, but Trek's reputation for having a good warranty isn't only based on RBR poster anecdotes.


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## Charlie the Unicorn (Jan 8, 2013)

That's what I owned. Not my only experience with them. Just like one mechanic/shop owner/whatever's experience does not match how many hundreds/thousands of others out there. 

There's a reason I hardly visit this site anymore, along with the mass exodus of so many others.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> That's what I owned. Not my only experience with them. Just like one mechanic/shop owner/whatever's experience does not match how many hundreds/thousands of others out there.
> 
> There's a reason I hardly visit this site anymore, along with the mass exodus of so many others.


Your're only experience is you previously owned "A" Trek?

How did that turn out??


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Charlie the Unicorn said:


> That's what I owned. Not my only experience with them. Just like one mechanic/shop owner/whatever's experience does not match how many hundreds/thousands of others out there.
> 
> There's a reason I hardly visit this site anymore, along with the mass exodus of so many others.


Feel free to go into detail. I've had hundreds of positive experiences, tell me about...say 5 negative experiences.


----------



## zephxiii (Nov 22, 2013)

You should send that frame to Home and get some input, could make for a good video too.


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> Feel free to go into detail. I've had hundreds of positive experiences, tell me about...say 5 negative experiences.


How would you feel if your doctor said to you:"I have helped hundreds of cancer patients but will not help you".

Does that make it right the he has saved 100's of lives but gives a **** about yours?

The guy bought a £6k ($8.5k) bike under the illusion it comes with a lifetime warranty and the **** broke after 4 years. The China Made tat is not fit for purpose. And the *******s from Trek are dragging their feets. 

Trek is the prime example why manufactures have destroyed the local shops: who in his right mind and a glimmer of providence will buy cycling stuff from the local shop with regular retail pricing knowing that if something breaks the *******s from the industry will not warrant his claim.

For me: buy as cheap as possible online and if it breaks, so what. If it does not break the better.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dracula said:


> How would you feel if your doctor said to you:"I have helped hundreds of cancer patients but will not help you".
> 
> Does that make it right the he has saved 100's of lives but gives a **** about yours?
> 
> ...


Cancer? Doctors? You're comparing apples to bacon. And your friends frame 'broke'? How about some details...a frame can be broken in many ways. You haven't provided any details at all and are still in the same place you were before wasting another post.


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> Cancer? Doctors? You're comparing apples to bacon. And your friends frame 'broke'? How about some details...a frame can be broken in many ways. You haven't provided any details at all and are still in the same place you were before wasting another post.



At least my posts are consistent. The doctor comparison is a good one.

I am not sure if you are real. At least you are the last man standing for Trek


Are we talking here about my friends (whoever that is) frame or the frame of the OP. The OP also posted pictures of the cracked frame.

There were enough details posted.

The only ones who haven't provided evidence are the pricks from Trek.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

dracula said:


> At least my posts are consistent. The doctor comparison is a good one.
> 
> I am not sure if you are real. At least you are the last man standing for Trek
> 
> ...


The doctor comparison is ridiculous. We don't come w/ a 'cancer warranty' provided by our doctor that they need to honor. 
And no...you provided no details about how your friends frame broke and how the warranty claim was handled. Just saying 'it broke' and wasn't covered says nothing. Have you had ANY personal dealings w/ Trek warranty? You sound like just another one of those 'he said/they said' types.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

dracula said:


> At least my posts are consistent. The doctor comparison is a good one.


Uhhh nope. Not a good one. Not even a bad one. It's a terrible and completely irrelevant one. I've never heard of a doctor offering a warranty. So no clue why you're using a doctor analogy in a warranty discussion.
And FYI.... sometimes doctors do tell terminally ill patients "I can't help you".


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

ceugene said:


> Add ENVE to the list of really great customer service. ENVE did not hesitate to replace a rim of mine that had minor chips on the edge due to porosity. They replaced my friend’s 25000mi set of 6.7s after 3.5 years of hilly riding because the brake tracks showed signs of delamination.
> 
> Stages too. While Stages gen1 PM housings were poorly designed, they made good by replacing all of them with gen2s for free...even post warranty period.
> 
> These are the warranty experiences that stood out to me in the past couple years.


Third this- good Stages experiences for me too.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*

Let's stick to the point everyone, not your thoughts on other posters as that ends poorly.


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

cxwrench said:


> The doctor comparison is ridiculous. We don't come w/ a 'cancer warranty' provided by our doctor that they need to honor.
> And no...you provided no details about how your friends frame broke and how the warranty claim was handled. Just saying 'it broke' and wasn't covered says nothing. Have you had ANY personal dealings w/ Trek warranty? You sound like just another one of those 'he said/they said' types.


Are you an idiot? Who is that friend of mine?

It now gets ridiculous.

As I said: you completely discredited yourself in that thread.


----------



## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

tlg said:


> Uhhh nope. Not a good one. Not even a bad one. It's a terrible and completely irrelevant one. I've never heard of a doctor offering a warranty. So no clue why you're using a doctor analogy in a warranty discussion.
> And FYI.... sometimes doctors do tell terminally ill patients "I can't help you".


No. The doctor comparison stands.

It does not matter how many warranty claims Trek processed and acknowledged. Not in the slightest. It is completely irrelevant.


How Trek dealt with the OP is what matters.


----------



## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

dracula said:


> How would you feel if your doctor said to you:"I have helped hundreds of cancer patients but will not help you".
> 
> Does that make it right the he has saved 100's of lives but gives a **** about yours?


analogy doesn't seem comparable.


----------



## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

*Moderator's Note*



dracula said:


> Are you an idiot? Who is that friend of mine?
> 
> It now gets ridiculous.
> 
> As I said: you completely discredited yourself in that thread.


Right under my warning too, sigh. In any event, enjoy that posting vacation.


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## jaggrin (Feb 18, 2011)

Coolhand said:


> Right under my warning too, sigh. In any event, enjoy that posting vacation.


I’m sure he will have much better things to do, he didn’t sound like someone who needs their safe space and comfort puppy to get through the day.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

dracula said:


> No. The doctor comparison stands.
> 
> It does not matter how many warranty claims Trek processed and acknowledged. Not in the slightest. It is completely irrelevant.
> 
> ...


Even doctors have to make tough decisions over invasive treatments for terminal patients or to simply make them as comfortable as possible in hospice. But no, this is a legitimately terrible analogy. Trek has every right to suspect if a frame was broken outside warranty terms.


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## ljvb (Dec 10, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> The doctor comparison is ridiculous. We don't come w/ a 'cancer warranty' provided by our doctor that they need to honor.


I dunno.. in every other country that provides universal health care.. you could potentially say that we do come with a cancer warranty.. just in the US we have to buy an "extended" warranty  yeah yeah, I know.. a stretch..


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## marathonrunner (Sep 7, 2016)

I feel bad for the OP, whether or not his story is complete and/or completely true.

My LBS is a Trek dealer and my best friend has worked there for a number of years. Maybe it's different because I'm in Minneapolis, not far from Waterloo, but I've had nothing but good experience when hearing about and personally using Trek customer service and honoring warranties. Treks are everywhere here. They probably make up 50% of the race bikes in my Cat3/4 fields. 

I wouldn't buy a new frame for 1250 pounds either. I'd get the old one repaired and painted for 300 dollars or so, or I'd buy a different frame off ebay. It would add some grams but that's not a racing bike anyway. Transferring di2 is easy.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm kind of wondering if the OP and TREK maybe are both correct (I too agree that the damage does not look like manufacturing defect). Maybe the OP didn't personally experience any incident which may have caused the seat stay to crack, but that doesn't mean no incidents occurred. 

It's perfectly conceivable his bike tipped over at a rest stop or during a servicing at his LBS, and some poor schmuck making $10/hour at the LBS or Joe sixpack who accidentally bumped the bike while wolfing down a goo wasn't about to disclose the accident.


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## Finx (Oct 19, 2017)

I went out to my garage to go for a ride one day. Found a small chip in my top tube that wasn't there before (carbon bike). 

After looking it over carefully, it looked like there might be damage below the chip. I asked the family, and no one had any idea what happened to it (no one heard or saw it fall, etc...).

I stripped it down and sent it to Calfee, who found that the top tube had a stress failure, and also found one of the chainstays had a crack in it.

I had them fix it and send it back to me.

Turns out, someone had moved the bike to access something behind it, and left it leaning against the side of the garage doorway and forgot about it. Someone else didn't notice it there and closed the garage door on it. The door hit the top tube and then re-opened, but hit with enough force to cause some stress cracking in the top tube and seat stay.


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

I have taken the frame off sigma and am approaching a different dealer to see if I can get a different result. 
If they reject it again i need to decide whether to get the slr9 frame for £1250. 
The alternative is i have a wonderful 10 yr old serotta ottrot with original Dura ace. I could get my di2 off the trek and onto the serotta. I don't think the serotta could take the disc brakes off my trek
Thoughts welcome


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

ataunque said:


> I have taken the frame off sigma and am approaching a different dealer to see if I can get a different result.
> If they reject it again i need to decide whether to get the slr9 frame for £1250.
> The alternative is i have a wonderful 10 yr old serotta ottrot with original Dura ace. I could get my di2 off the trek and onto the serotta. I don't think the serotta could take the disc brakes off my trek
> Thoughts welcome


You'd have Di2 wires on the outside of the frame and no...you can't 'add' disc brakes to a non disc frame. You'd have to make it work w/ thru-axles too and that's not gonna happen.


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## ataunque (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks for that. 
So if it gets rejected i could use the di2 gears but not the disc brakes. Would the same shifters be able to be used for new rim brakes?
Tricky decision if it comes to it - the slr9 frame would be great but I'm not happy about paying £1250 when I've not done anything to break my original frame. 
Kind regards


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

ataunque said:


> Thanks for that.
> So if it gets rejected i could use the di2 gears but not the disc brakes. Would the same shifters be able to be used for new rim brakes?
> Tricky decision if it comes to it - the slr9 frame would be great but I'm not happy about paying £1250 when I've not done anything to break my original frame.
> Kind regards


yes, you would need new shifters.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

factory feel said:


> yes, you would need new shifters.


Why would he need new shifters if he's just moving Di2 from one rim-brake bike to another?


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

ceugene said:


> Why would he need new shifters if he's just moving Di2 from one rim-brake bike to another?


*Thread:* Trek reject warranty claim Domane 6.9 disc


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

ceugene said:


> Why would he need new shifters if he's just moving Di2 from one rim-brake bike to another?


Because his Trek has disc brakes which are most likely hydraulic. Hydraulic brake shifters are not compatible with rim brake shifters and vice-versa.


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## ceugene (Jun 20, 2015)

Oh nm, selective memory and he phrased the last reply weirdly.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> Because his Trek has disc brakes which are most likely hydraulic. Hydraulic brake shifters are not compatible with rim brake shifters and vice-versa.


good point, I guess he could have mechanical discs.


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## kiwisimon (Oct 30, 2002)

factory feel said:


> good point, I guess he could have mechanical discs.


his old Serotta bike doesn't have disc tabs.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

kiwisimon said:


> his old Serotta bike doesn't have disc tabs.


Nor is the rear end wide enough or have thru-axles.


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## factory feel (Nov 27, 2009)

kiwisimon said:


> his old Serotta bike doesn't have disc tabs.


was referring to his cracked frame could have had mechanical discs, but doubtful.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

factory feel said:


> was referring to his cracked frame could have had mechanical discs, but doubtful.


On a Domane 6.9, very doubtful. Mechanical discs are generally only on entry level bikes these days.

And what CX said is true as well. Rear axle is a different width and Domane most likely has thru-axle, Serotta has QR and no tabs to attach discs.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> On a Domane 6.9, very doubtful. Mechanical discs are generally only on entry level bikes these days.


Yup, and not on a Di2 bike. That would take a custom build to buy Di2 mechanical brake levers and connect them to discs.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Yup, and not on a Di2 bike. * That would take a custom build to buy Di2 mechanical brake levers and connect them to discs.*


More like insanity.


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