# Why am I cramping so much?



## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

A little background. I've been riding for fourteen months now and consistently have cramps between 50-60 miles on a ride. I ride three or four days a week and cover between 350 and 500 miles per month. I do intervals once a week, a distance ride once a week, a relaxed spin once a week and sometimes a second distance ride. I'm 52, 5'9" and down to 158lbs. Today I set out for 60 miles with 4000 feet of climbing with a maximum grade of 12%. I'm using a bottle of spiz every 75 minutes with three scoops (375 calories). I eat every hour either some hammer gel or cliff bar. Today after three bottles and 5 ounces of hammer gel and a cliff bar, at mile 59 I cramp up in the thighs and Hams. One mile from home! If I drink or eat any more I will barf  My diet is perfect and I supplement the right stuff. What's my problem? Any ideas I can use? Have my first century in March. At this point, I don't think it's possible. Sorry for being long winded and Merry Christmas!


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

*Spiz?*

I kinda do, and kinda don't, want to know what Spiz is. 
What is the nutritional breakdown of your drink? Particularly in the salts/electrolytes category: Sodium, potassium, zinc, etc
Your overall quantity of drink might be too carb heavy?
what is the temperature where you ride?

also curious to know how you recover after your rides - that magic 30minutes afterwards.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rollo Tommassi said:


> I kinda do, and kinda don't, want to know what Spiz is.
> What is the nutritional breakdown of your drink? Particularly in the salts/electrolytes category: Sodium, potassium, zinc, etc
> Your overall quantity of drink might be too carb heavy?
> what is the temperature where you ride?
> ...


It would probably be easier to google it but I will attach a photo of the label. I use three scoops rather than four as listed on the label. Today's ride started at 52 degrees and finished at 74 degrees. I used to fill the bottles with a 50-50 mix of water and G2. I've tried endurolyte capsules and could add those back into the program. Maybe I'm using too much? 

Post ride is usually 20 minutes of ice on my knees, stretching, a healthily meal and off to the showers. 

Thanks for replying.
View attachment 247855


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

*Got it*

well, I'd try a ride without the Spiz entirely. Try to eliminate a possible cause rather than trying to add layer upon layer. Just ride with water, use the gels and a clif bar. See what happens.

the G2 is worthless as an electrolyte source, imo. Try some real food - bananna, nuts, raisins, as a source of nutrition.

Adding up all of your intake....clif bars, gels, spiz, G2....almost 800 calories in how many hours? Not sure how many hours you are doing with that climbing.

also, why do you need to ice your knees? Is this a chronic thing, and do you have low back pain?


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rollo Tommassi said:


> well, I'd try a ride without the Spiz entirely. Try to eliminate a possible cause rather than trying to add layer upon layer. Just ride with water, use the gels and a clif bar. See what happens.
> 
> the G2 is worthless as an electrolyte source, imo. Try some real food - bananna, nuts, raisins, as a source of nutrition.
> 
> ...


I actually started the Spiz in an effort to help. Tried Cytomax as well. Like them both. I ice my knees because it helps  My knees are bad do to many years of motocross racing. Lower back has no issues. Today's ride took four hours including one flat. Burned about 2500 calories and my intake was 1125 from Spiz, 200 from cliff bar and 300 in hammer gel. Total intake was about 1625. 

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to get this right if it kills me. And it might  Merry Christmas!


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

*aha*

So you had this before you started the Spiz? That's 'good' news then. 

One item your intake doesn't include is magnesium chloride: you're getting magnesium glyconate in Spiz and Mag oxide in Cytomax; the oxide version absorbs slowest of the three, and the glycine in Spiz is an amino acid added to aid abosrption (and is equal to the chloride version in availability to the body)

Chloride, Potassium and Sodium work best as a trio; Chloride also is part of the chain of events that aid in breaking down nutrients and sending them thru the bloodstream and into the muscles.

I'd suggest moving away from the Gatorade and going towards the Hammer Heed or tablets


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## MisterC (May 26, 2007)

Just keep riding and try not to get any older.


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## kevhogaz (Jul 28, 2007)

I'd try a ride without the spiz, and see what happens. I use NuuN electrolyte tablets, with pretty good results.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Do a 50-60 mile ride with just water. 

Hydrate prior. Eat a light meal and drink no more than one cup of coffee prior to the ride. No gels, cliffs, spiz, spaz, or otter pops during the ride. See how that goes. You don't need to scarf something down every hour. Just water.


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## davbooth (Dec 22, 2011)

Watch out for highly processed carbs which induce a state of hyperglycemia. Realy high levels of blood glucose is released out of the blood by the kidneys which causes glucose to spill into your urine. The increase in osmolarity (concentration) of the urine carries excess water along with it. This is why uncontrolled diabetics are so thirsty and pee such large amounts of urine. This leaves your blood relatively concentrated so the water in your muscles shift into your blood stream to keep things in balance. Also high glucose levels "trick" your body into rearranging its electrolytes which causes shifts of potassium in and out of your muscles. Homeostasis is the body trying to keep everything in balance. In my opinion it is best to let our bodies do this naturally. Our job is to supply natural fuel and plenty of water.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

I cramp when I go long at a pace above my fitness level and it is humid. More miles and better fitness and I don''t cramp.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rollo Tommassi said:


> So you had this before you started the Spiz? That's 'good' news then.
> 
> One item your intake doesn't include is magnesium chloride: you're getting magnesium glyconate in Spiz and Mag oxide in Cytomax; the oxide version absorbs slowest of the three, and the glycine in Spiz is an amino acid added to aid abosrption (and is equal to the chloride version in availability to the body)
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the replies.

I've been off the Gatorade for along time. It was about three months ago when I changed to Cytomax after hearing good reviews from many riders. I add Hammer Gel every hour or so on a normal ride on top of my supplement drink (Cytomax or Spiz). I switched to Spiz recently to try to assist with the cramping and I've set a reminder beep on my Garmin every ten minutes to assist me in drinking. Trying to drain a bottle an hour but it's usually more like 75 minutes. 

I browsed the products on the Hammer website. It looks like a couple of Endurolytes might help with the cramping. The Heed looks like it's good as well but not for longer rides (over two hours).

I've never tried just straight water  Maybe I should but it appears I will need something with it to assist with the replenishment of the electrolytes etc. 

I trying to increased my training in hopes that my upcoming century will be enjoyable and not a cramp session at the half way mark :cryin:

I have another question. Can you take in too much? As an example, If I continued using Cytomax or Spiz (one bottle per hour) and added two or three Endurolyte tablets every hour, would I overload my body? :idea: I have a hard time eating on the road but can do the Hammer Gel every hour, just not to much of it. I usually take a flask (5 ounces) and swallow an ounce or two every hour or half a cliff bar as a substitute. 

Thank you to everybody who has contributed to this thread. Our community never ceases to amaze me. Your help is so appreciated. :thumbsup:


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies.

I've been off the Gatorade for along time. It was about three months ago when I changed to Cytomax after hearing good reviews from many riders. I add Hammer Gel every hour or so on a normal ride on top of my supplement drink (Cytomax or Spiz). I switched to Spiz recently to try to assist with the cramping and I've set a reminder beep on my Garmin every ten minutes to assist me in drinking. Trying to drain a bottle an hour but it's usually more like 75 minutes. 

I browsed the products on the Hammer website. It looks like a couple of Endurolytes might help with the cramping. The Heed looks like it's good as well but not for longer rides (over two hours).

I've never tried just straight water Maybe I should but it appears I will need something with it to assist with the replenishment of the electrolytes etc. 

I trying to increased my training in hopes that my upcoming century will be enjoyable and not a cramp session at the half way mark 

I have another question. Can you take in too much? As an example, If I continued using Cytomax or Spiz (one bottle per hour) and added two or three Endurolyte tablets every hour, would I overload my body? I have a hard time eating on the road but can do the Hammer Gel every hour, just not to much of it. I usually take a flask (5 ounces) and swallow an ounce or two every hour or half a cliff bar as a substitute. 

Thank you to everybody who has contributed to this thread. Our community never ceases to amaze me. Your help is so appreciated.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I think you're taking in too much. 1600+ calories on a four hour ride is overkill. If you're unwilling to _try_ straight water, try to limit your consumption to 150 calories per hour. Sometimes less is more.


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## climbinthebigring (Mar 13, 2011)

I ride with water and clif bars or sandwiches and have never once had a cramp while on my bike. I drink when I'm thirsty and eat when I'm hungry.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Well, all the suggestions are appreciated guys. Thank you! I spent two hours reading on the Hammer website and learned a bunch. First of all, You guys are right (that's why I posted the question) I knew there was a lot of knowledge around here :thumbsup:. Too much is not good. I'm going to experiment with my fluid intake and calories. Bringing the calories down to between 180 and 220 per hour and keeping the fluid between 18 and 24 ounces per hour depending on conditions. Will be using the Endurolytes for sure. I like the looks of the hammer products (have used the gel for some time) and will experiment with some others very soon. I also now understand that my pre-ride breakfast was to much and to close to the start of my ride. BTW: I'm not opposed to straight water, just like a little flavor 

Thanks for all the tips! I will post a follow up as things progress. Peace


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## Clyde250 (Feb 24, 2007)

I use Vitalyte Drink Mix. It doesn't have a lot of extra sugar and crap in it so it's easy to adjust how diluted it is. Plus its pretty cheap. Ride fuel for 60 miles would be a PB&J with some Gels. If I am still having problems a small flask of Dill Pickle juice at about mile 50 works wonders. Endurolytes are expensive and not all that helpful in my experience.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Not most people*



Local Hero said:


> Do a 50-60 mile ride with just water.


Very few people would have a pleasant 3 hour ride with zero calorie intake. In order to do this you would have to be at the low end of your power range because otherwise you get into glycogen shortages at about 90 minutes. There is extensive research that supports this.


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## locustfist (Feb 21, 2009)

Stop using gels. 

Because of the density and the way it sits in your stomach it makes it hard for it to mix with water in your gut. Your body will compensate (needs water to digest) by drawing blood to the stomach to get the water (causing you to cramp).

Instead, eat food on the ride that has bulk to it which allows for space for water to mix in making it easier to digest. Your stomach won't have to draw blood and thus less potential for cramping.

Only use gels in the last part of a ride...I avoid them all together


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Update: just retuned from a 68 mile ride (my longest so far) with just under 4000 feet of climbing. 

After reading much Information I decided to go with a very small breakfast (2 ounces of hammer gel and 1 scoop of cytomax) 90 minutes before the start. One 24 ounce bottle per hour with a mix of 240 calories. Hammer products. Four bottles total. One cliff bar and two small servings of hammer gel. Two Endurolytes each hour. Legs got tired at mile 55 and they wanted to cramp but didn't 

Overall weight loss over the ride was 1 pound. Big improvement for sure. Next time I will increase the calories to 260 per bottle and increase the Endurolytes to three each hour. 

Hopefully with a good training plan I will reach my goal of finishing the Solvang Century in March. 

Thanks for all the tips and replies.


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

*A good start*

Looking back at your comments, here are more thoughts:
Your age plus volume of riding and likely fulltime job plus family could equal not enough recovery. Real recovery, not a "recovery ride", like a big nap after a massage. Your legs may not be getting tired because of the previous 50miles but because of the previous three days of going into debt physically.

I also think you need to eat more for breakfast. Maybe Spiz pre or post ride, but not during. Way too much in that stuff, I don't think your kidneys can process that during exercise. Remember, the Spiz was designed for people with wasting diseases (AIDS, cancer). Have some real food like Oatmeal, eggs, yogurt.

You allude to weight loss twice - in your original post ("down to 158") and "...one pound lost during ride". Do not confuse a training regimen to lose weight with one designed to increase endurance and strength. Yes it's good you've lost weight but what is your body fat percentage? Muscles need fuel to work, you can't starve yourself into endurance.

Questions for you:
What are you eating 40-50 minutes after your ride? 
What is your body fat percentage?
What is the difference between your waking and resting HR?



willieboy said:


> Update: just retuned from a 68 mile ride (my longest so far) with just under 4000 feet of climbing.
> 
> After reading much Information I decided to go with a very small breakfast (2 ounces of hammer gel and 1 scoop of cytomax) 90 minutes before the start. One 24 ounce bottle per hour with a mix of 240 calories. Hammer products. Four bottles total. One cliff bar and two small servings of hammer gel. Two Endurolytes each hour. Legs got tired at mile 55 and they wanted to cramp but didn't
> 
> ...


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rollo Tommassi said:


> Looking back at your comments, here are more thoughts:
> Your age plus volume of riding and likely fulltime job plus family could equal not enough recovery. Real recovery, not a "recovery ride", like a big nap after a massage. Your legs may not be getting tired because of the previous 50miles but because of the previous three days of going into debt physically.
> 
> I also think you need to eat more for breakfast. Maybe Spiz pre or post ride, but not during. Way too much in that stuff, I don't think your kidneys can process that during exercise. Remember, the Spiz was designed for people with wasting diseases (AIDS, cancer). Have some real food like Oatmeal, eggs, yogurt.
> ...



Thanks for the reply. You couldn't be more right on the 50-60 hours at work, church and family commitments etc. Seems like I'm getting busier as I get older  

Funny that you mentioned massage because I had one last night. Helped but still feeling it today in my hams and calves. 

I was 212 pounds two years ago. I now run between 156-160 depending on the normal factors, intake, exercise, stress etc. I only referred to the before and after ride weights because I'm trying to match them. I don't want to lose weight on the road if I can help it but I also don't want to overload my system with intake. 

Body fat runs between 13 and 16 percent according to my scale. Not sure on the resting HR. Need to check that. Maybe wear a heart monitor to bed  I'm willing.

Thanks again for all the help!


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> Very few people would have a pleasant 3 hour ride with zero calorie intake. In order to do this you would have to be at the low end of your power range because otherwise you get into glycogen shortages at about 90 minutes. There is extensive research that supports this.


I suppose you're right. My post was an extreme response to what I saw as extreme overfeeding. 

This guy has been at it for less than two years. Gels, spiz, and a $6,000 bike aren't going to change the fact that cycling is hard and it takes time for the body to adapt. I've had leg cramps too, both running and cycling. I just kept at it and hope it doesn't happen next time. The only thing that will make endurance riding easier is more riding, rest, and time. 

And on a personal note, I ride better when my stomach isn't full of sloshy goop. A small breakfast with good amount of protein goes a long way. My best races were times when I was a little hungry. When I start to feel the drop off of energy, I take a gu. As someone else said, it takes a certain amount of the body's resources to digest and process food. It's not rocket fuel. Sometimes less is more.

Will he be ready for a century? I think so.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> This guy has been at it for less than two years. Gels, spiz, and a $6,000 bike aren't going to change the fact that cycling is hard and it takes time for the body to adapt. I've had leg cramps too, both running and cycling. I just kept at it and hope it doesn't happen next time. The only thing that will make endurance riding easier is more riding, rest, and time.
> 
> And on a personal note, I ride better when my stomach isn't full of sloshy goop. A small breakfast with good amount of protein goes a long way. My best races were times when I was a little hungry. When I start to feel the drop off of energy, I take a gu. As someone else said, it takes a certain amount of the body's resources to digest and process food. It's not rocket fuel. Sometimes less is more.
> 
> Will he be ready for a century? I think so.


I'm learning (slowly) that less is more. There's so much information available that it gets a little confusing. Helps to have all the knowledge from you guys too  I will say that going out the other day with little in my stomach dropped my early heart rate numbers substantially. That was good. I will be increasing my calories to 260-280 per hour on the next long ride and maintaing the 22oz of fluid intake per hour. Also will be increasing the Endurolytes intake slightly. Over time I will dial this in. 

Will I be ready for the century? YES!

Happy New Year to all!


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

Funny that you mentioned massage because I had one last night. Helped but still feeling it today in my hams and calves. _drink plenty of just plain water after a massage; and, the next day it's good to ride super easy (small chainring, ride with mouth closed)_

I was 212 pounds two years ago. I now run between 156-160 depending on the normal factors, intake, exercise, stress etc. I only referred to the before and after ride weights because I'm trying to match them. I don't want to lose weight on the road if I can help it but I also don't want to overload my system with intake. _you will lose weight on the road, but it's only fluid loss. No need to weigh yourself after a ride_

Body fat runs between 13 and 16 percent according to my scale. Not sure on the resting HR. Need to check that. Maybe wear a heart monitor to bed  I'm willing. _Measure resting HR just at pulse while sitting at desk, count beats in 15seconds then multiply by four. MEasure waking HR by doing same but *before* you sit up in bed_

Thanks again for all the help![/QUOTE]


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## ohiorick (May 29, 2010)

I am far from an expert , but I am your age and have lost a good bit of weight in the last year too so am reading these posts with a lot of interest. I am wondering where you got the idea that you need so many calories as you ride? I do a 40 mile ride and get by with water and a clif bar. You need to let your body tell you what it needs rather than take food in because it has been so many minutes or miles. I also curious how you are carrying all the drink mix and other liquids you take while you ride. Water intake has always been my method to prevent cramps. You sound pretty fit, I doubt that you will have any problems doing your century ride.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

ohiorick said:


> I am far from an expert , but I am your age and have lost a good bit of weight in the last year too so am reading these posts with a lot of interest. I am wondering where you got the idea that you need so many calories as you ride? I do a 40 mile ride and get by with water and a clif bar. You need to let your body tell you what it needs rather than at me food in because it has been so many minutes or miles. I also curious how you are carrying all the drink mix and other liquids you take while you ride. Water intake has always been my method to prevent cramps. You sound pretty fit, I doubt that you will have any problems doing your century ride.


I have been studying endurance web sites and reading as well for some time. For me, leaving for a four to five hour ride with water and a cliff bar is freighting. From what I understand the optimal intake would be about 30% of what you burn. In my case, I burn about 660 calories per hour when I'm averaging 15-17 MPH. when I'm out for a 40 mile spin, I can get by with two bottles. 

When I'm out for an extended ride (over two hours) I take my mix in a baggy or multiple baggies and refill on the road. also carry a cliff bar and some gel. 

I'm still experimenting and all have been so helpful. 

Thanks for your input. Have a great New Year!


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## milkbaby (Aug 14, 2009)

Schneiderguy said:


> I cramp when I go long at a pace above my fitness level and it is humid. More miles and better fitness and I don''t cramp.


The above has been my experience as well in both my cycling and my running. And I've only ever cramped in a race or race-like events when I'm right at or probably past my limit on that particular day.

Of course, getting your event hydration and nutrition dialed in is important, so keep on working to figure out what works for you. One thing I know that hinders me is to overhydrate, because it either just sloshes around in my stomach or makes me lose time going for a "nature break"...

OP, you're doing great! Good luck and enjoy the century! :thumbup:


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## xflyboy7r7 (May 28, 2011)

That is correct


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## veloduffer (Aug 26, 2004)

I got back into cycling the past couple of years and was suffering from cramps on rides over 40 miles. It wasn't an issue for me when I used to ride/race. Maybe it's due to hitting the half century mark in age.

I did many of the things you did and nothing worked -- Hammer, etc. I solved the problem by taking mineral supplements -- magnesium, potassium and calcium - which work together for fluid retention, muscle fatigue, etc. Lots of research on these minerals in helping endurance athletes.


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

*Little is good*

My european point of view:

Personally I never use the artificial crap found on the market today. Keep Water in the camelback or waterbottle, dates or dried apricots bananas or whatever other fruit in pockets.
If you want to use commercial stuff use bars and isotonic drinks, no gels for the reason stated earlier-IMHO the best of the worst are cliff and isostar.

I ride competitvely and training for durations between 2 and 4 hours (MTB and Rd) and always use the same combination: drink before you are thirsty (small gulps very regularly) and eat before you are hungry (small quantities to keep stomach cramps away and for easy digestion)

You should have a meal at least 3 hrs before riding (or if riding in the morning a light breakfast -small helping of raw cereal+juice) plus on the bike. Try not to have a meal after your ride but later, but hydrate to the max after your ride, and stretch stretch stretch.

that's for my humble experience of the past 20 years.....

PS: the only times i might have cramps is after a very hard race in extreme heat and low on liquids or tired from other reasons that riding.......watch those two points carefully!!


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

Local Hero said:


> I suppose you're right. My post was an extreme response to what I saw as extreme overfeeding.
> 
> *This guy has been at it for less than two years. Gels, spiz, and a $6,000 bike aren't going to change the fact that cycling is hard and it takes time for the body to adapt. I've had leg cramps too, both running and cycling. I just kept at it and hope it doesn't happen next time. The only thing that will make endurance riding easier is more riding, rest, and time. *
> And on a personal note, I ride better when my stomach isn't full of sloshy goop. A small breakfast with good amount of protein goes a long way. My best races were times when I was a little hungry. When I start to feel the drop off of energy, I take a gu. As someone else said, it takes a certain amount of the body's resources to digest and process food. It's not rocket fuel. Sometimes less is more.
> ...


This is the point I was trying to make four days ago. Worry less about chemicals and focus on fitness which doesn't come in a bottle and takes a lot of time and hard work.
Patience Grasshopper


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm with the guy who brings along dried fruit. It's OK to snack on a banana, an orange, or some prunes. The gu is there in case of emergencies. Actually, I keep a gu in my spare tube kit, as a morale booster. 

Just remember, the Hammer Nutrition website is a commercial for their products. It's marketing. Spend a few hours reading about Zipp wheels and you'll convince yourself that you *need* dimpled firecrest carbon clinchers. Don't believe the hype!


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Rollo Tommassi said:


> Questions for you:
> What are you eating 40-50 minutes after your ride?
> What is your body fat percentage?
> What is the difference between your waking and resting HR?


I usually eat some tuna, fruit or a recovery type drink. Depends how hungry I am but I always get a good mix of carbs and protein in my system within 30 minutes. I put my HRM on last night and resting HR was 66. When I woke up this morning it said 50.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*High numbers?*



willieboy said:


> From what I understand the optimal intake would be about 30% of what you burn.


Not really the right way to think about it. Your body can absorb only so many calories regardless of your burn rate. That number varies both with the type of food and the individual. Generally, the number is around 300 calories, though some studies with mixed sugars (AKA real food) have shown up to 400 calories per hour. You need to experiment to see what works for you. You only need to take in lots of calories for intense riding (and then your stomach might object) or for very long distances. On a 65 mile ride (3 & 3/4 hours with a stop to refule) I eat less than 700 calories and that is all at the break.



willieboy said:


> From In my case, I burn about 660 calories per hour when I'm averaging 15-17 MPH. when I'm out for a 40 mile spin, I can get by with two bottles.


16 mph on the flats would be less than 400 calories per hour. The ride would have to be half climbing (4% grade) to get you up to 650 calories per hour at 16 mph. Your numbers sound high. For a 40 mile spin and reasonably fueled before, with some conditioning you would need only a couple 100 calories to carry you through.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Kerry Irons said:


> Not really the right way to think about it. Your body can absorb only so many calories regardless of your burn rate. That number varies both with the type of food and the individual. Generally, the number is around 300 calories, though some studies with mixed sugars (AKA real food) have shown up to 400 calories per hour. You need to experiment to see what works for you. You only need to take in lots of calories for intense riding (and then your stomach might object) or for very long distances. On a 65 mile ride (3 & 3/4 hours with a stop to refule) I eat less than 700 calories and that is all at the break.
> 
> 
> 
> 16 mph on the flats would be less than 400 calories per hour. The ride would have to be half climbing (4% grade) to get you up to 650 calories per hour at 16 mph. Your numbers sound high. For a 40 mile spin and reasonably fueled before, with some conditioning you would need only a couple 100 calories to carry you through.


While I appreciate your input I don't agree completely. I have two heart monitors ( Sigma and Garmin) that measure my calories within 15 per hour. Ny normal average is 660 calories per hour. I happen to run higher than most in heart rate (at least the.guys I ride with) with an average over the year of 155. I have multiple 40 mile loops. One is fairly flat and average speed is between 18.5 and 19.5 if I'm pushing it. I'm not fast. The other has 2600 feet of climbing and I will average between 16-17.2 mph. I wish I could do 65 in 3 3/4 hours but that's not the case at this point. The 68 took me 4.5 hours of ride time. 

I appreciate the input and with all the knowledge I'm gaining, I'm sure I can get this dialed in. Thank you


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## ohiorick (May 29, 2010)

Willie boy,
I am not sure that I would depend on the heart rate monitors giving you an accurate calorie value. I do not believe it is a math question as much as it is a" how do I feel" question. You seem to have done all the research and most likely know more than I do on what is written on calories required. I have been riding a bike for 40 plus years and those numbers do not add up for me. I would take some Clif bars, energy drink and Gu with you, but go for a ride after a good breakfast of oatmeal and fruit (wait 2 hrs after eating to ride) and see when your body tells you that you need some food. I learned this by bonking a few times and that lesson was all I needed to figure out what my body needs. I am not sure the food intake is causing your cramps, but it would be worth a test to see. In the end, you will know what your body needs more than anyone else. 
Have a happy new year and enjoy the ride.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

ohiorick said:


> Willie boy,
> I am not sure that I would depend on the heart rate monitors giving you an accurate calorie value. I do not believe it is a math question as much as it is a" how do I feel" question. You seem to have done all the research and most likely know more than I do on what is written on carries required. I have been riding a bike for 40 plus years and those numbers do not add up for me. I would take some Clif bars, energy drink and Gu with you, but go for a ride after a good breakfast of oatmeal and fruit (wait 2 hrs after eating to ride) and see when your body tells you that you need some food. I learned this by bonking a few times and that lesson was all I needed to figure out what my body needs. I am not sure the food intake is causing your cramps, but it would be worth a test to see. In the end, you will know what your body needs more than anyone else.
> Have a happy new year and enjoy the ride.


Thank you for the post. I love all the knowledge from experienced riders. I have many things I can try now and I like experimenting so I will get started tomorrow. Only a 40 mile easy spin as my legs are just coming back from the last ride  Thank you so much and have a healthy happy new year. Peace :thumbsup:


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## ohiorick (May 29, 2010)

Willieboy, 
I am following this thread as I too am learning as we go here. Keep us informed on how you progress and what works and what doesn't. Have a great new year


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

ohiorick said:


> Willieboy,
> I am following this thread as I too am learning as we go here. Keep us informed on how you progress and what works and what doesn't. Have a great new year


I will do so. Happy to help someone else if I can :thumbsup:


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Numbers still high*



willieboy said:


> While I appreciate your input I don't agree completely. I have two heart monitors ( Sigma and Garmin) that measure my calories within 15 per hour. Ny normal average is 660 calories per hour. I happen to run higher than most in heart rate (at least the.guys I ride with) with an average over the year of 155. I have multiple 40 mile loops. One is fairly flat and average speed is between 18.5 and 19.5 if I'm pushing it. I'm not fast. The other has 2600 feet of climbing and I will average between 16-17.2 mph. I wish I could do 65 in 3 3/4 hours but that's not the case at this point. The 68 took me 4.5 hours of ride time.
> 
> I appreciate the input and with all the knowledge I'm gaining, I'm sure I can get this dialed in. Thank you


Using heart rate monitors to estimate calories is notoriously innacurate. They typically overestimate by 20-40% based on numbers frequently reported here. If the Garmin and Sigma units give the same number that is because they are both using the same estimating algorithm, not because they are equally accurate. Two people of the same weight and same conditioning can easily have heart rates that are 20 bpm different at the same power output. Nearly every calorie estimator based on heart rate gives a high number. probably using sources similar to those chosen by Bicycling magazine, which is a laughing stock for the high numbers they give for bike rides.


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## jmitro (Jun 29, 2011)

I admire your long distance rides. 

I personally have never experienced cramps either as a long distance runner or now as a cyclist. I don't know why.....I guess I have "good genes."

either way, good luck in eliminating your cramps, and good luck in your century. :thumbsup:


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

jmitro said:


> I admire your long distance rides.
> 
> I personally have never experienced cramps either as a long distance runner or now as a cyclist. I don't know why.....I guess I have "good genes."
> 
> either way, good luck in eliminating your cramps, and good luck in your century. :thumbsup:


Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to need it. I went out today after two days off and my legs did not cooperate. At 8 miles out I turned around and came home. Just didn't have it. 
I guess there's always another day. Happy New Year!


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## DCD 2005 (Apr 4, 2010)

I also signed up for the Solvang century in March. My typical ride is a fast 30 to 45 miles, solo and group. I started getting ready for the century but found my legs were cramping after 50 miles. At 70 miles the cramping got pretty bad. I was using a lot of GU and cliff bars. I gave up on GU and started using Nuun tablets and Hammer Recoverite.

I can tell the Nuun helps. Yesterday I rode 80 miles with 3200 feet of climbing in the last 30. I had a small lunch before I left, ate a cliff bar somewhere around 30 miles, stopped at 46 miles for a PBJ and cookie and used Nuun in 4 out of 5 water bottles. I didn't cramp and felt like going further but ran out of daylight. Also should have ate somthing at 75 miles. My neck was sore (riding a CAAD 9) but legs felt great this morning. I'm sold on the Nuun tablets.


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## M Ice (Dec 8, 2011)

Ok...so I've read the thread and see a lot of discussion about hydration and calorie intake while you're on the bike and for a couple of hours preceding your rides. I'm a new rider as well...less than two years... I live in Phoenix so hydration/nutrition is a huge issue during the summer months. I bonked/cramped/dehydrated twice this past summer...both times in high heat (100 degrees plus) and high mileage (once at 94 miles, the second at 82 miles). Both times I drank and ate "recommended" amounts....ie 24 to 30 oz of fluid (use endurolyte fizz) and either gels, bars, or heed to get roughly 300 calories per hour. However, what I found was that what you,eat/drink,off the bike is as or more important that what you,eat and drink on it. If you don't hydrate adequately every day, it doesn't matter what you do on the bike...if you start in deficit, you stay in deficit. I focus on daily,hydtration now particularly in the hot months...limit my coffee and diuretic intake, and use a calcium, magnesium, and potassium supplement daily. Allegedly, they allow better absorption of calories and fluids. I use primarily Hammer products.... heed, Endurolyte Fizz, Perpetuum, and Recoverite along with gels or Clif Shot Blocks....... Solved my problem.... My $.02


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## jmitro (Jun 29, 2011)

M Ice said:


> However, what I found was that what you,eat/drink,off the bike is as or more important that what you,eat and drink on it. If you don't hydrate adequately every day, it doesn't matter what you do on the bike...if you start in deficit, you stay in deficit.


good point. I agree with you.


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## hamsey (Aug 16, 2010)

Ice,

Good points and I agree with you. These are the things I need to do in 2012. OP are you stretching? Also something I am going to do more of. 2011 was my first year of serious riding and have been having cramping issues. Need to pay attention to what I am doing off the bike. Started getting messages and am going to watch the diet, stretch and hydrate better. Hopefully that will take care of the cramping.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

hamsey said:


> Ice,
> 
> Good points and I agree with you. These are the things I need to do in 2012. OP are you stretching? Also something I am going to do more of. 2011 was my first year of serious riding and have been having cramping issues. Need to pay attention to what I am doing off the bike. Started getting messages and am going to watch the diet, stretch and hydrate better. Hopefully that will take care of the cramping.


I do stretch but I'm sure I could do more. Hydration on a daily basis is good and I do that but I do drink some ice tea (home brew) during the day. I wonder if caffeine could be an issue. I'm planning on a 75-80 ride next week. We will see how that goes. This week I can only ride three day  Distances will be 20,30 and 50. I'm trying to focus more on time rather than miles this year. Just hope I can find enough to improve. 

Thanks to everyone for all the input. I'm privileged to be part of this community.


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## Todd_H (Nov 20, 2009)

I've struggled with cramping myself and I tried everything - supplements, electro's, massage, compression, embro, etc. I race CX, do centuries, did Ride the Rockies, 100 mtb races, etc, and generally get a good 5000+ miles a year, so this is big issue for me. I think everyone is different but what has finally worked (cross my fingers) for me is heat and increasing my overall water intake. I should also mention I'm an epidemiologist, so I've taken a systematic approach to figuring what is going on. I've found that drinking 3x the water daily helps tremendously, I make sure I go through at least a large Nalgeen everyday at work, not just on race day. Second, I try to stay as warm as possible and anytime it's below 60 degrees I wear something on my legs and below 40 I embro. When I'm warm I rarely cramp. Third, I've noticed that when I roll-out my leg muscles prior to a big ride I rarely cramp. When I do all three - tons of water throughout the week, stay warm and roll my legs I have never cramped. 

Just my 2-cents and I hope you figure this out.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

Todd_H said:


> I've struggled with cramping myself and I tried everything - supplements, electro's, massage, compression, embro, etc. I race CX, do centuries, did Ride the Rockies, 100 mtb races, etc, and generally get a good 5000+ miles a year, so this is big issue for me. I think everyone is different but what has finally worked (cross my fingers) for me is heat and increasing my overall water intake. I should also mention I'm an epidemiologist, so I've taken a systematic approach to figuring what is going on. I've found that drinking 3x the water daily helps tremendously, I make sure I go through at least a large Nalgeen everyday at work, not just on race day. Second, I try to stay as warm as possible and anytime it's below 60 degrees I wear something on my legs and below 40 I embro. When I'm warm I rarely cramp. Third, I've noticed that when I roll-out my leg muscles prior to a big ride I rarely cramp. When I do all three - tons of water throughout the week, stay warm and roll my legs I have never cramped.
> 
> Just my 2-cents and I hope you figure this out.


That's worth more than 2-cents to me  Thank you for contributing such valuable information.


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## trener1 (Jan 22, 2004)

I have been following this thread with interest as I also have some cramping issues.
I wanted to chime in regarding the calorie readings that you get from your HRM, as others have already mentioned, they always give high readings.
But I wanted to do a "scientific" test so on sunday I went out for a long ride on my roadbike that has a SRM and I also brought along my Garmin 705 that I usually just use on my Mt Bike, and I wore the HR strap for the Garmin. 
so just for kicks here are the numbers
SRM - 2004 KJ
Garmin HR - 4076 Cal


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

trener1 said:


> I have been following this thread with interest as I also have some cramping issues.
> I wanted to chime in regarding the calorie readings that you get from your HRM, as others have already mentioned, they always give high readings.
> But I wanted to do a "scientific" test so on sunday I went out for a long ride on my roadbike that has a SRM and I also brought along my Garmin 705 that I usually just use on my Mt Bike, and I wore the HR strap for the Garmin.
> so just for kicks here are the numbers
> ...


4.184 kilojoules = 4,184 joules = 1 Calorie = 1 kilocalorie = 1,000 calories the srm should read: 17053 kJ:idea:

never trust those devices excepts GPS, Heartrate, alti, speed, avg speed, timers, diverse Odos


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

trener1 said:


> I have been following this thread with interest as I also have some cramping issues.
> I wanted to chime in regarding the calorie readings that you get from your HRM, as others have already mentioned, they always give high readings.
> But I wanted to do a "scientific" test so on sunday I went out for a long ride on my roadbike that has a SRM and I also brought along my Garmin 705 that I usually just use on my Mt Bike, and I wore the HR strap for the Garmin.
> so just for kicks here are the numbers
> ...


Could you tell me the time and miles for that ride please? And what's a KJ?


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## FrenchNago (Jan 1, 2011)

willieboy said:


> Could you tell me the time and miles for that ride please? And what's a KJ?


see above.....then its all maths and physics


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## trener1 (Jan 22, 2004)

Time and Distance are irrelevant for this discussion.
As for KJ, what FrenchNago said..
If you want more details there is a thread in the coaching forum on Kilojuoles to Calories, but more or less for
training purposes the excepted conversion is a 1:1 ratio, which means that the HRM is not only reading high, it is reading double your actual caloric expenditure!.


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## willieboy (Nov 27, 2010)

trener1 said:


> Time and Distance are irrelevant for this discussion.
> As for KJ, what FrenchNago said..
> If you want more details there is a thread in the coaching forum on Kilojuoles to Calories, but more or less for
> training purposes the excepted conversion is a 1:1 ratio, which means that the HRM is not only reading high, it is reading double your actual caloric expenditure!.


With respect, time and distance is relevant. I'm trying to gauge my cramping issue with other riders experience. I appreciate the opinions on the accuracy of HR monitors with concerns to calorie expenditure. Thanks.


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## trustbran (Apr 16, 2011)

Aloha, 
I too used to cramp almost every ride at or around the 50 mile mark when I was living in Hawaii. After a coworker (and 12 time Iron Man participant) suggested replacing a water bottle of Heed with only Coconut juice I never cramped again past 50 miles. You might want to give it a try and see if it works for you. 

Mahalo, 
Brandon


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