# Using my HID on the road



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Also put in the Lounge, but maybe you lot are interested, after my previous discussion:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, after UPS being delayed by a freak PacNW snowstorm, I have been using the 920-tested-lumen HID light I bought last week for my bike commutes this week.

O.M.F.G.

This light is SO BRIGHT. I really want to test a Magicshine now, if it doesn't explode on me, to see how it compares in the real world, as well as some of the more modern high-power, reflectorized LED lights.

I previously used a Sigma setup with three emitters: two Karmas and a PowerLED, which claim "up to" 200 ea, and, 300, respecitvely. In theory, then, going from 700 to 900 lumens should be somewhat brighter.

It is not "somewhat" brighter. It is like going from a moped to a Ducati. If I measured illuminance, I bet there would be something like 5-10 times as much total lit area. Oh wow.

NOBODY cut me off or nearly left-hooked me on the road the whole week, despite pouring rain -- usually it is several, and I have to ride super defensively on 20th, the industrial frontage road that is my "best" choice. 

Now, people stop -far- short of me. I am not sure if they think I am a motorcycle, or if they simply cannot identify that light source. I don't even have it pointed up at people's eyes, it's slightly down, like a headlight should be!

The battery is a stupid, heavy NiMH pig. I asked Niterider why they don't make a Lithium battery for this light, as they do with many of their others, and the answer was something about backwards compatibility, and that HID's are obsolete now. Still wish I could buy one, both for weight and longer battery life.

I'll ride this as long as it lasts, but if their PRO LED lights are really as bright as this, but more compact, longer battery life, and programmable, it may just be the ultimate lighting system.


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*hid v led*

I have both a L&M 600 lumen HID and a Dinotte 600L LED. In the winter, I run them both.

The HID has that blue tint that stands out. That's a plus. It's more of a long throw beam, where the LED is more diffuse, lighting up everything from my front tire to sidewalks on both sides of the street. So, I run the HID pointed a little up, like a driving light, to illuminate well ahead and to be seen, and the LED a little down to make a big bright spot about 10-15 feet in front of me. Works well for me.



Argentius said:


> Also put in the Lounge, but maybe you lot are interested, after my previous discussion:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> So, after UPS being delayed by a freak PacNW snowstorm, I have been using the 920-tested-lumen HID light I bought last week for my bike commutes this week.
> ...


----------



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

What's your commute like? IIRC you are in socal?

I wanted silly nuclear bright to be able to better tell if there's ice or not, but also and mostly to be seen by cars amidst the semis in the rainy dark of 6:00 am Tacoma, WA industrial traffic.



Fixed said:


> I have both a L&M 600 lumen HID and a Dinotte 600L LED. In the winter, I run them both...


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*Fresno*



Argentius said:


> What's your commute like? IIRC you are in socal?
> 
> I wanted silly nuclear bright to be able to better tell if there's ice or not, but also and mostly to be seen by cars amidst the semis in the rainy dark of 6:00 am Tacoma, WA industrial traffic.


Fresno, right smack dab in the center of California. I feel comfortable with these lights (combined with incredible tail lights) even in thick fog.


----------



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

The fog is rough.

I had to mess with my lighting when it got really foggy as autumn broke, normally I had my brightest light on my helmet, to "look" at drivers with, but it just blinded me in that horrid rainy fog stuff.

The battery life is crummy, though. I have JUST enough to get home from work, it looks like. 



Fixed said:


> Fresno, right smack dab in the center of California. I feel comfortable with these lights (combined with incredible tail lights) even in thick fog.


----------



## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

We gave up on Niterider lights. Not enough run time and they suffered in the wet (we rode in the wet a lot).

Light & Motion worked well for the last 3 years of our commuting and are still going strong for brevets and other crazy night riding.

As far as light at night is concerned more is always better IMHO.


----------



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

Well, this is definitely a lot of light!

But, I also ride in the wet a lot, as you know, so I am interested to see how the product fares. I hear NR had a bad reputation for this, but I also know their "newt" series seems to get far better reviews.

I told the NR guy if it failed the battery WAS awfully brick-shaped, and I wouldn't want to have to find a good window through which to lob it... kidding. 



MB1 said:


> We gave up on Niterider lights. Not enough run time and they suffered in the wet (we rode in the wet a lot).
> 
> Light & Motion worked well for the last 3 years of our commuting and are still going strong for brevets and other crazy night riding.
> 
> As far as light at night is concerned more is always better IMHO.


----------



## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

...another successful ride with my magicshine tonight. I'm a bit disappointed that I haven't been engulfed in flames yet.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

lonniedivers said:


> I went for a ride in the rain a couple of weeks ago and turned on my HID. Everything worked fine. Today my afternoon ride went into the evening so I went to flip it on and... nothing! The control switch now has a blinking blue LED instead of a steady-on blue LED when it's working.


Is the blinking led a low-battery indicator?


----------



## RotatingShifts (Nov 12, 2006)

*Thanks for the insight*

I'm still using a niterider halogen from 9 or 10 years ago. It's showing its age -- the battery life is now halved from the original 2+ hours.

After studying the MTBR light shootout reviews, I'd been thinking that those are too bright for the road -- but after reading the above comments, I'm not so sure anymore. After all, if the light's strapped to my helmet, I can aim the light away from drivers' eyes (Or, right at 'em) ;-)


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*too bright?*

I think there is no such thing as "too bright." Lights can be mis-aimed, but not too bright. Just compare a car headlight with even the brightest bike headlight, and the car light is far brighter. We just aren't used to seeing bike headlights that bright, and some may think they are unnecessary, and therefore "too bright." I want to be as brightly lit and see the road as much as possible. 

On dark bike paths, when approaching someone head on I will divert them to my right, typically, though, or down a bit, sort of like dimming your bright headlights on a car. Even if I don't, though, it's not like a pedestrian or even another cyclist is going be blind, swerve off the road into a tree, and die. I don't think it's much more of a concern than being a little annoying.

As long as we are weighing in, I've had three top of the line NiteRider models since 2001, and every single one failed horribly. The first two would simply quit in the middle of rides, and the last never even came on out of the box (after charging). I think they make their products far too complicated, electronically, so their "smart" technology turns out to be pretty stupid. I've never had a problem with a Dinotte or Light and Motion after thousands of miles on them, other than some reduced battery life after several years of daily use. Nice thing about Dinotte, though, is that all the batteries are compatible with all the light heads, as they don't change out connection types every six months like some companies.



RotatingShifts said:


> I'm still using a niterider halogen from 9 or 10 years ago. It's showing its age -- the battery life is now halved from the original 2+ hours.
> 
> After studying the MTBR light shootout reviews, I'd been thinking that those are too bright for the road -- but after reading the above comments, I'm not so sure anymore. After all, if the light's strapped to my helmet, I can aim the light away from drivers' eyes (Or, right at 'em) ;-)


----------



## mitmoned (Apr 7, 2008)

I have a really good solution for "being seen" by motorists.

Take a blinky front light with a mounting system that can both fit around the midpoint of your fork and tilt side to side. I use a Trek Blinky, but anything similar will work.

You mount it to your non drive side fork blade about mid point, and then aim it at the middle of the wheel then turn it on to blink mode. This will do a few things. For one, if you have silvery spokes, it'll flash off those suckers like crazy giving you plenty of side to side visibility. It will also catch peoples attention directly in front of you. However, being that it's mounted low and pointing even lower, it won't blind or be annoying to anyone. And lastly, it should catch the attention better (compared to a straight facing light) of people who are at an intersection to your right.

I run a Super Nova Pro dynamo light facing straight and have the blinky going on my front wheel. I've had cars wait for me while I'm still a block away. You could potentially just get 2 of the lights linked above, one set to steady mode on your handlebar, then the other blinking on your wheel. Pretty cheap and rechargeable with the correct batteries/charger.


----------



## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*No such thing +1*

Another day commuting on the HID -- another delivery van that stopped in its tracks, rather than cutting in front of me.

The difference in respect from drivers is enormous -- and my previous system, a Sigma Karma plus a Powerled, is not exactly a blinky.

Of course, after all have been saying, I hope the Niterider product holds up on my wet commutes. Will report. Perhaps I will find some way to enclose the battery, like caulking it into a water bottle.

Oh, and re: mounting a light like this on one's helmet: For some riders, or perhaps off-road, this could be useful, but where I ride, there is so much rain and fog, that I would mostly end up seeing the air in front of my face, instead of the road, and, it would be very easy to dazzle and blind oncoming draffic. 

I still keep a Karma on my helmet to "look" a light around corners and into parking lots.

Mitmoned, that sounds like an interesting solution, what conditions are you riding in? I live in an urban area, but commute through an industrial suburb, through a residential suburb.

I find in the urban areas, with good streetlights and lower speed limits, my lighting needs are much lower than in the industrial ones.


----------



## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

RotatingShifts said:


> After studying the MTBR light shootout reviews, I'd been thinking that those are too bright for the road --


+ whatever on the no such thing. Potholes and other nasties come up a lot faster at night than during the day, even with a HID.


----------



## saf-t (Sep 24, 2008)

mitmoned said:


> I have a really good solution for "being seen" by motorists.
> 
> Take a blinky front light with a mounting system that can both fit around the midpoint of your fork and tilt side to side. I use a Trek Blinky, but anything similar will work.
> 
> ...



Interesting idea- might have to try it.......


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*fog*

In fog, I dip my lights' aim a bit, and run them upside down under the bars. I've considered getting a gizmo that lets you attach a light to a fork leg and run one down even lower, too. In thick fog, a foot or two in height can make a huge difference. I run a weaker "be seen" light on the helmet. 

[/LIST]


Argentius said:


> Another day commuting on the HID -- another delivery van that stopped in its tracks, rather than cutting in front of me.
> 
> The difference in respect from drivers is enormous -- and my previous system, a Sigma Karma plus a Powerled, is not exactly a blinky.
> 
> ...


----------



## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

To the no such thing as too bright folks...

The biggest issue I see with it is that most homebrew, LED, etc solutions throw out a cone of light as the reflector setups are just some basic cone inside a projector. Cars, motorcycles and the like spend tens of thousands of dollars developing a reflector system that creates a shaped beam that has cutoffs and tiers from a fixed headlight point which has minimal glare for oncoming traffic. I've yet to see a bicycle solution that takes glare into account. Try this.. Find a target that you can shine your lights on ~150ft away. Turn on your bike lights, walk out to your target and then walk off to the oncoming traffic side until your eyes aren't straining to look at the light source. Give your eyes 5 min to readjust and aim your car lights at the same point, walk out and walk off axis to the drivers side and see how many feet it takes for your eyes not to strain. It's probably 1/2 the distance if you're realistic about it. Also keep in mind that your car's lights will be a good amount more powerful than your bike lights.

Nuclear lighting is fine for mtb, and occasionally alright for certain deserted mountain descents where you won't bother anyone, but outside of that do you really need more than say 700 lumens? As you really just an eyesore when you go above, and even at, those power numbers. To be seen by motorists you're better off putting a couple of cheap blinkys on the front and back of the bicycle and have your standard lighting of sub 700 lumens in front and you're still very visible. The blinkys and the slightly weaker light (car halogen headlights are ~1100 lumens) ID you as something other than a car and give you more space. 

If you've ever noticed motorcycle lights tend to seem like they're bouncing all the time, it's actually an modulating pattern to help motorists identify them and give notice. Same effect can be accomplished with a cheap blinky setup. A blinking light source, even when it is sub 50 lumens, can get attention from an incredibly far distance. 

That said, while I don't commute I still do ride at night on occasion. With typical suburbia street lights I'm fine with my 170 lumens going 20 mph as I realistically only need to see 4-5 seconds in front of me. Gives me enough time to ID, make a decision and avoid.

Edit: LED lights do terribly in fog. Fog reflects the blues/purples that LED lights produce in abundance. That's why you see yellows and reds in any type of fog light. If you plan to ride in fog often I'd consider using a lighting system (or possibly a filter system) that outputs more toward the red/yellow wavelength vs the LED typical blues/purples.


----------



## sonic_W (Sep 2, 2008)

Beamshots?


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*too bright*

Here's my bottom line on the "too bright" issue. I've never heard of a motor vehicle driver or a cyclist being blinded by a cyclist's light and crashing. I'm not sure it's possible. On the other hand, I've heard of hundreds of instances of drivers running over cyclists and claiming that "they never saw him." So, all risks considered, I'll go with "too bright." 

I have a Dinotte 600L LED that I use in fog, and it works (maybe because it's "too bright ;-). I mount it under my handlebar to be a bit lower. I aim it centered about 10 feet in front of the bike, with an HID light pointed up a bit more. In fog, it's just a lot more important to get the aim right. This comes from nearl 5 years of commuting in the worst fog in the country, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tule_fog







makeitso said:


> To the no such thing as too bright folks...
> 
> The biggest issue I see with it is that most homebrew, LED, etc solutions throw out a cone of light as the reflector setups are just some basic cone inside a projector. Cars, motorcycles and the like spend tens of thousands of dollars developing a reflector system that creates a shaped beam that has cutoffs and tiers from a fixed headlight point which has minimal glare for oncoming traffic. I've yet to see a bicycle solution that takes glare into account. Try this.. Find a target that you can shine your lights on ~150ft away. Turn on your bike lights, walk out to your target and then walk off to the oncoming traffic side until your eyes aren't straining to look at the light source. Give your eyes 5 min to readjust and aim your car lights at the same point, walk out and walk off axis to the drivers side and see how many feet it takes for your eyes not to strain. It's probably 1/2 the distance if you're realistic about it. Also keep in mind that your car's lights will be a good amount more powerful than your bike lights.
> 
> Edit: LED lights do terribly in fog. Fog reflects the blues/purples that LED lights produce in abundance. That's why you see yellows and reds in any type of fog light. If you plan to ride in fog often I'd consider using a lighting system (or possibly a filter system) that outputs more toward the red/yellow wavelength vs the LED typical blues/purples.


----------



## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

Fixed said:


> Here's my bottom line on the "too bright" issue. I've never heard of a motor vehicle driver or a cyclist being blinded by a cyclist's light and crashing. I'm not sure it's possible.


In general what kind of credibility would the general public give when a report comes out saying the cyclist blinded the driver? Little to none, so it is not reported. Plus, what % of cyclists are out there with a 700+ lumen lighting system that costs upward of $400? Very small sample you're talking about. Thus logically you're really not going to see many reports stating this. I personally have been 'beamed' by someone probably with around 500 or so lumens (guessing) and it's not fun. In comparison police spotlights are around 800 lumens and they're pretty blinding when it is turned remotely in your direction. If you wonder if it's possible (not that I'm really recommending this) try turning your own lights on yourself, stare at it for 2-3 seconds that an a-typical driver would struggle with them and then look back to a dark road. Or just try being 10ft off center at 100ft and see how much detail you can see in the area next to the lightsource? You won't be able to see any detail due to the glare from your own lights. Is it possible to be blinded by bike lights? If you can't stare at them for more than a few seconds w/o your eyes hurting, it's definitely possible esp with ppl helmet mounting.

Not going to play down your experience w/ fog but in general longer wavelengths (warmer colors) penetrate fog much better than the cooler colors. LED and HID lights produce more cooler wavelengths in general and will generally give more reflective glare. While your Dinottle 600L gets the job done, possibly throwing a yellow filter on the end of it will help in thick fog and increase your light penetration even though reducing the lumen output by limiting the wavelengths. 

Muscling it through w/ overwhelming light works for some, but if you can find a warmer light source with less lumens you'll have less glare and possibly much better visibility during fog situations. It is also why w/ LED type light sources you see so much more floating matter in the air over a halogen light source. The narrower wavelengths get reflected much more easily.


----------



## MTT (Oct 14, 2005)

I realized this morning that my five year old L&M $100 commuter is not cutting it, so my question for you guys is this: can I buy a simple and solid system for less than $150? My commute has very dark sections, but I really only need 80 minutes max (if I wanted to charge it after every commute which is a hassle but very possible). 

Should I have a minimum Lumen number? Seems like you all think about 500-600 is more than solid: would you agree? Seems like the way to go is LED right? I searched the forum and the reviews and I have yet to get a ton of useful information, but it is starting to come into focus (pun intended)...............Thanks MTT :thumbsup:


----------



## Fixed (May 12, 2005)

*Dinotte*

The Dinotte 200L, if you get the AA rechargeable version, is only $110. That's pretty good bang for the buck. I have one, and it's about the minimum light I'd run. It's fairly bright, but just not like a 600L or higher. If you can spring for the extra cost of the lithium ion rechargeable, they a nicer batteries, too. Nice thing about Dinottes is that the Li batteries are interchangeable, so if you upgrade to a brighter light or add a tail light later, the batteries work for the other units, too. It's their tail lights that are really incredible, though.

http://store.dinottelighting.com/shared/StoreFront/product_detail.asp?RowID=66&CS=dinotte&All=

http://store.dinottelighting.com/shared/StoreFront/product_detail.asp?RowID=9&CS=dinotte&All=

In my experience, the "very dark" sections are the least demanding on lighting. A very weak light works well where it's completely dark, your pupils dilate, and you don't have lights in your face from oncoming cars. The most demanding situations are narrow 2 lane roads, especially when wet, where cars are coming at you and blinding you; you darn near need 2000 lumens to see the road well. 



MTT said:


> I realized this morning that my five year old L&M $100 commuter is not cutting it, so my question for you guys is this: can I buy a simple and solid system for less than $150? My commute has very dark sections, but I really only need 80 minutes max (if I wanted to charge it after every commute which is a hassle but very possible).
> 
> Should I have a minimum Lumen number? Seems like you all think about 500-600 is more than solid: would you agree? Seems like the way to go is LED right? I searched the forum and the reviews and I have yet to get a ton of useful information, but it is starting to come into focus (pun intended)...............Thanks MTT :thumbsup:


----------



## MTT (Oct 14, 2005)

What about this one? It is only 120 lumen; is that just too weak?

http://www.rei.com/product/791314

MTT :thumbsup:


----------



## makeitso (Sep 20, 2008)

MTT said:


> What about this one? It is only 120 lumen; is that just too weak?
> 
> http://www.rei.com/product/791314
> 
> MTT :thumbsup:


Benefit of REI is you can try and return

Though in regards to lumen count a claimed 120 lumen will probably disappoint as in reality it will probably around 80-100 lumen output. Being that your budget is around $100-150 it is probably more effective to go via a flashlight method vs a kit as the good kits start coming in at around $200. Unfortunately the MagicShine (claimed 900, but realistic 500 lumen) is being recalled due to battery failures as it was the best at the price point of $85. 

While the Dinotte recommended is nice, for the price it's rather expensive unless you pick up one of their combo deals for the headlight/tail light. Their tail lights are awesome btw. But what's your general needs? Ride length, where you ride (to determine brightness needed), battery charging knowledge? If you haven't checked already MTBR always does a pretty extensive light review annually where you see light outputs and general pricing.

http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/2011-bike-lights-shootout/




fixed said:


> most demanding situations are narrow 2 lane roads, especially when wet, where cars are coming at you and blinding you; you darn near need 2000 lumens to see the road well.


Which equates to you being brighter than most cars and they're going 2-3x your speed... those drivers must be crazy going that fast when you can't see going bicycle speeds...


----------



## MTT (Oct 14, 2005)

I thought about checking MTBR, but lights for mountain biking are too powerful for the road: or are those the kinds most of you are useing? I have an urban commute, but some of it is on bike paths and/or city park with no lights and it lasts about 40minutes one way. 

How would I find out my current light's lumen number? That might be a good place to start. If I am running with say 80 now, then that 120 might work well for my commute (when my current Light and Motion is fully charged it works well enough- it is about 5 years old and it was about $110 with just an on/off button). 

Thanks for the input...........MTT :thumbsup:


----------



## pedalruns (Dec 18, 2002)

MTT said:


> What about this one? It is only 120 lumen; is that just too weak?
> 
> http://www.rei.com/product/791314
> 
> MTT :thumbsup:



What about this one: http://www.rei.com/product/807968

or this one: http://www.rei.com/product/807417

Both are 250 lumen... I have used the niterider and the 250 was good enough for me.. my commute is 16 miles with 1/2 being on a dark mut... yes more would be better, but this is my budget and it is really plenty of light for me to see. On my wish list is the L&M 360. 

But... the niterider crapped out and stopped recharging after just several months of use, so I returned it to REI and just got the cygolite version, so I'll see how I like that one... I did like the niterider and really like not having a cord connected to a battery pack.


----------



## MTT (Oct 14, 2005)

pedalruns said:


> What about this one: http://www.rei.com/product/807968
> 
> or this one: http://www.rei.com/product/807417
> 
> ...


I like the look, and price, of that Cygolite. Let us know how it holds up: looks like a good compromise between cost and lumen level..............MTT


----------



## Pablo (Jul 7, 2004)

MTT said:


> I thought about checking MTBR, but lights for mountain biking are too powerful for the road: or are those the kinds most of you are useing?


I used to use less powerful lights. I now use a 550 lumen "mountain bike" light on the road, and would not go back.


----------



## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

Fixed said:


> Nice thing about Dinotte, though, is that all the batteries are compatible with all the light heads, as they don't change out connection types every six months like some companies.


Are you listening Nite Rider?


----------

