# Best frame 5'4" guy, short legs/arms, longer torso



## CvilleDan (Jun 9, 2009)

Hi,

I'm a short guy (5'4" 28 inch inseam) with a relatively long torso and relatively shorter legs and arms. For the past three years, I've been riding a 2006 Specialized Elite with a top tube length of 525 mm. I've been fitted and am reasonably comfortable on my current bike, but I find that the best fit still has me constantly moving towards the front of my saddle, since the top tube is really too long (and I've been told this at various fittings).

I'm looking to upgrade to my first full carbon frame, and before I drop a few thousand dollars on a new bike, I want to get a frame that's really the best fit. I've tried some on-line calculators that suggest the best fit, and these come up with recommendations for a top tube length of 482-498 mm, and most XS bikes exceed even this length.

While I've seen some WSD bikes with really short top tubes, I understand that these bikes are designed generally for someone with long legs/arms and a relatively shorter torso, the opposite of what I have.

So, does anyone have a suggestion on what frame might be a good fit for me? (I've been looking at bikes like the Fuji Altamira 3.0, Giant TCR 1, Trek Madone 3.1, etc. I'm willing to spend more (within reason) for the right fit.

Thanks!

CvilleDan


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## CvilleDan (Jun 9, 2009)

Typo above--Specialized Sequoia Elite is what I'm riding now...


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm 5'4" too. Do not get a CF bike with an integrated seat post. You may be able to standover the bike but the seat top to BB center will be too long making your knee too straight for proper motion. 

*In 50 cm*, the Trek 5.2 with the integrated seat post won't work but the *Trek 4.7* with the conventional seat post will fit, without much to spare. This is because the Trek geometry includes a _sloping_ top bar. If you want more handlebar drop (or a straight top bar on another brand), a 47 cm will work too.

You are going to need lots of adjustments. *Get a written guarantee of fit or your money back.* You are in the 5% range and most dealers have never properly fit a short man. What they do for women will sometimes work and sometimes not. For example a 5'4" tall woman has 3-4 inches more standover height (guess why?). So what regularly works for women, won't work for you.

After 5 bikes, I've settled on a Trek 4.7 in 50cm. That might be a place to start looking.


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## rollinrob (Dec 8, 2002)

I am 5'3 and change and riding a Cannondale caad 10 48cm. 51 cm top tube, 11 cm headtube, 74 degree seat post angle. In a smaller bike the seatpost angle can make a difference. I have had more than my fair share of bikes including Looks, Treks, Orbeas (3) and now I am on my second Cannondale. It took me a while to figure out what would work so if you can go to a bike fitter and get fit, it will be worth the money, I wish I had. My kids would have far more in their college account now!


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## CvilleDan (Jun 9, 2009)

Thanks for all the suggestions. To be honest, I've never even tried a bike that I had anything more than a quarter inch of standover height, so I guess it's really going to come down to finding someone who can do an excellent job of fitting me. I'm going to check out the 4.7 and the Cannondales. Glad there are folks here in town that deal in both and are willing to bring in models for me to try out.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

The first bike I had, which worked out fine mechanically but looked a bit funny, was a Trek 2.3 in their 43 cm frame (no longer made). We had to extend the headset by 4 inches and the CG was high but it rode fine. It met my #1 criteria at the time -- ba**s cannot smack into the top tube. 

As I've become more comfortable riding, I've gone to a 50 cm _sloping_ top tube Trek. Standover clearance is about 1/4". Current specs are: frame 50cm, eff.top tube 52, head tube 13, seat tube angle 74.6*, minimum seat height 61.0.

Don't be scared off by feme-centric advertising. All of my bikes are WSD's because they fit ME better.


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## fazel (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm 5' 5.5" with a 30.5" inseam. I went from a 52 cm CAAD10 to a XS TCR Advanced with a longer stem and am happy with the fit.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Trek2.3 said:


> I'm 5'4" too. Do not get a CF bike with an integrated seat post. You may be able to standover the bike but the seat top to BB center will be too long making your knee too straight for proper motion.
> 
> *In 50 cm*, the Trek 5.2 with the integrated seat post won't work but the *Trek 4.7* with the conventional seat post will fit, without much to spare. This is because the Trek geometry includes a _sloping_ top bar. If you want more handlebar drop (or a straight top bar on another brand), a 47 cm will work too.
> 
> ...


I disagree with most of your post:

Trek geometry is terrible for those seeking a short top tube. The listed 52.1 effective top tube is really a 52.7 when you correct it for the rather steep 74.6 seat tube (the TT is artificially short since it leans forward, but that isn't going to determine your seat position). Trek pulls this stunt with the WSD bikes, too, with up to 76 degree seat tubes.

I would strongly recommend looking at Cervelo. The 48 R3 has an effective TT of 51.6 with a 73 seat tube. Compaing this to a 74 degree TT bike (74s are typical for smaller bikes), that's an honest *50.6cm effective TT*. That is really hard to beat.
http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/bikes/2012/R3/geometry/


Actually, the rest of the quoted post doesn't make sense, either. Women do not have longer average legs than men, and integrated seat posts can be trimmed to fit seat post height.

Anyway, as a fellow 5'4" man who works at a custom fit shop, be smart about comparing geometries - add 1cm for every extra full degree of seat post steepness if you want to really compare TT lengths. You'll find that very few bikes actually have TTs much shorter than 52.5 with a 74 degree seat tube, so the low angle head tube angle of the Cervelo really accomplishes something for fitting short people. We have a collegiate racer at the shop who is built like you and does very well on his size 48 R3.


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

You might consider a custom steel frame. Especially if there is a builder you can deal with in person. I am pleased with my Schneider custom. It fits me really well. I can make do with stock frames but I have to pay attention to effective TT, seat tube angle and headtube height. Most stock frame will not work for me very well. Actually the headtube is as much a pain to get right as TT. The Schneider has a 53 toptube, 73 seat tube and 9mm non-intergrated headtube.


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

try this site if you are still not sure what your ETT length is ... i think it gives a good guide ...

http://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=2500

select 'Calculate Framesize'
then 'Adjust Your New Bike To Your Body Measures ...'

You will need to measure your body lengths etcetera.

Then check here to see what is the 'recommended effective top tube length' is ...


As the length of your torso equates to someone who is taller (no offence), once you know what your ETT is then you need to go out and find out what is your comfortable seat tube length is, or at least the maximum. I think what you would be looking for is a frame with a slightly sloping top tube ...

Or as someone suggests, you could go and get a _custom frame ... I would just chose the geometry of a frame that is already being manufactured by a 'household' brand, that you have tried and being comfortable with, and just tweaked it to fit your longer ETT ... end result is you might have a slightly sloping top tube, if you get what I am driving at ..._


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## gordy748 (Feb 11, 2007)

Ditto Schneiderguy. I knew a guy that was 5' 10" but similar to you in body shape. After several off-the-peg frames he eventually went with a custom Serotta. He called it the very best bike he ever had.

I don't know Schneider, but a customer recommendation can't be argued with. You can also have a look at Winter, Waterford, Serotta or Seven for custom steel. Seven and Moots are great custom ti bikes (as well as ti-carbon hybrids), and for carbon you have Parlee or Calfee. Then there is Independent Fabrications. 

If you like steel and want to touch the hand of god, there's Dario. And for carbon, Renzo Formigli.

Given the depth of quality in American custom makers, I am really surprised you're even thinking of off-the-peg frames (no I'm not American).


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

gordy748 said:


> Ditto Schneiderguy. I knew a guy that was 5' 10" but similar to you in body shape. After several off-the-peg frames he eventually went with a custom Serotta. He called it the very best bike he ever had.
> 
> I don't know Schneider, but a customer recommendation can't be argued with. You can also have a look at Winter, Waterford, Serotta or Seven for custom steel. Seven and Moots are great custom ti bikes (as well as ti-carbon hybrids), and for carbon you have Parlee or Calfee. Then there is Independent Fabrications.
> 
> ...


I'm not selling Schneider stock. He is a friend, local and an excellent builder. But there are lots of good builders around. I'm 5'4.5" tall (two back surgeries and old age has taken it toll on my former 5'5"). I have a longer upper body with short legs short arms. But for really short legs I have long femurs so my kneecaps sit on top of my ankles! A lot of production bikes have rather tall headtubes even the race models. If I get in a hammer ride I got to get aero in the drops to produce any power and cheat the wind as much as I can. Another advantage of a custom steel or TI bike is that you can ride it the rest of your life. Creekyknees also has a Schneider.


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## CvilleDan (Jun 9, 2009)

I will look into the custom build -- just wasn't something that was on my radar. Thanks for the suggestion. Having never order a custom frame, can anyone tell me, if I was going to do so, how does one first get fitted for the ideal geometry?


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## c_h_i_n_a_m_a_n (Mar 3, 2012)

Get someone to help you and take measurements of your body geometry ... torso length, arms, inseam ... these are quite specific measurements and usually, there is a specific method to measure them ... then you will need your height and weight, and sometimes even the length of your thighs ...

I would then suggest that you go to a few of these custom frame manufacturers and give them you figures and see what they recommend. They should come up with 'almost' the same geometry, for what you intend to do with the bike.

In the meantime, go and try out a few bikes from local LBS, take note of what is comfortable for you ... ETT ... esp, then go online and research the full geometry of those frames ...


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## Schneiderguy (Jan 9, 2005)

check out the forum on custom builders for a list of builders. I think many of the sites will provide info as to measurements. Some larger builders sell through LBS and they take your measurements at the shop. Maybe seeing a custom bike fitter for measurements would be helpful. Most of the one/two man shops have been building for years and can tell you over the phone what measurements they need as well as your weight and how you plan on using the bike in order to build one that fits and meets your needs. Not only will a good builder make a frame and fork to fit you but will select appropriate tube set that matches your needs. If you like the parts on your current bike you can just transfer what you like and replace later. The frame is only around 20% of the total bike weight. A good steel frame will not be significantly heavier than the carbon frames you are considering. A steel fork will weigh about a lb more than a carbon fork.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

a 5'4", 28" inseam (measured from crotch to ground) is not an anatomically atypical person. Sure it's under average for an American male, but not a midget here. A frame of 48-50cm is what you need. 
Try the Cervelo that Kontact said.

If you wanna go custom, then prepare to pay for it. Fitting is usually done by the shop representing the builder, or at the builder's shop. But the 2nd option is kinda hard to do if you live far away. Another thing many custom builders take a looong time to build your frame, so prepare to wait and maybe even be frustrated


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

Keep in mind that short arms + long torso = fairly normal reach for your height. 

The main difficulty with fitting people with long torsos is that they have a hard time getting the handlebars low enough with todays longish head tubes - if they want them at all low. But shorter arms means that a relatively high bar may provide a reasonably flat back.

I wouldn't be surprised if a good fit could be had from a fairly normal geometry bike in something like a 48 or 50.


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## pret (Dec 5, 2011)

I have short legs, and a long torso, too. When I was researching which bike, there were a couple of makers that seemed to have frames that were a little more stretched out - Felt, Orbea, and Wilier tend to do it this way. I bought a Felt Z-series (largely because I got a screaming deal on it), though an F-series probably would've fit me a little better.

That said, the next bike I buy will be a custom built frame.


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## rayovolks (Dec 13, 2007)

Similar proportions to you, but 5'3" in height.

Generally OK with stock bikes in the 51.5cm TT length with ~10cm stems. 52cm TT's feel too long.


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## krisdrum (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm slightly taller (by an inch or two) and have a similar inseam to you. I do well with a 515mm ett length with a 75 degree sta. I adjust from there. For example, my cross bike is a 73 sta, with a 530mm ett and it is ever so slightly shorter reach than my road bike. So, without knowing the sta, ett is a useless figure.


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## mrb09 (May 17, 2012)

I'm 5'4 with a 28" inseam. I went with a size 52 Specialized Secteur. With a flipped stem and stock spacers, my handlebar is exactly level with my seat, which is how I like it. If you haven't tried the larger (for us) stock frames, might just try a test ride and see how it feels.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

Do not just look at top tube. Always consider seat tube angle (the slacker the shorter reach for a given top tube length) and also consider the head tube length as reaching down is more strenuous than reaching forward. If available, always look at reach and stack numbers - much better to judge size than top tube numbers. 

I'm 5'5" and currently riding a 51cm cervelo rs. Cervelo actually has one of the shortest reach small bikes out there because they keep a consistent 73 degree seat tube. That said, I'd still ideally like a bike with shorter reach while maintaining the stack height. 

A few bikes Imwould consider that fit the short reach category:
BMC Granfondo
Focus Ergoride
XS giant defy
Cannondale synapse


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## Bilgewater Billy (Aug 27, 2012)

OK, you guys are really making me feel self-concious about my proportions. I'm 2 inches TALLER than CvilleDan, but my inseam is 2 inches LESS. My bike's frame is a 47 but I do think I'd be more comfortable with a 45 or so.


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## unagidon (Jun 16, 2007)

It's much easier to find a proper fitting bike if you have short inseam and long torso / body vs. long legs and short torso (my case, and hence have researched bikes to death). With sloping top tubes, stand over is not too difficult to achieve. The difficult part is to find bikes with short enough reach, and to avoid toe overlap, not many bikes have short reach. The smaller size specialized bikes, for example, are ridiculous with 75.5 degree seat tubes, so even with a 518mm top tube, the reach is much longer than my 531mm top tube with 73 degree seat tube angle. 

As mentioned before, the bikes I listed are the ones with the shortest reach I've been able to find. Sucks to be short!


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## brady1 (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm 5'4" too, and after shopping for a small frame a while back I settled on the Masi Evoluzione in the 47cm size. It fits me quite well. The only thing I had to change was getting a slightly longer stem; swapping out the original 90mm for a 100mm.


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## Gsascha (Aug 9, 2012)

I just bought a pinarello Paris in a 44, which has a slightly shorter top tube than my cannondale caad 9 in a 48


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## fazel (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm 5' 5.5", same body shape and on a XS TCR Advanced with a longer stem (110 instead of 90). Fits good, much better than the 52 cm CAAD 10 I had last year.


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## tsutaoka (Mar 4, 2005)

CvilleDan said:


> I will look into the custom build -- just wasn't something that was on my radar. Thanks for the suggestion. Having never order a custom frame, can anyone tell me, if I was going to do so, how does one first get fitted for the ideal geometry?


i'm short with odd proportions too. i own a custom road (steve rex) and custom cx (john caletti) bikes but test ride many carbon bikes just in case something lighter/stiffer/better comes up. so far, i haven't found a production carbon bike which sets-up and handles anything close to my customs. set-up, sure i can get close on the same touch points...but handling is a whole other world. a good custom bike is designed for you and your riding purpose.

there are many good builders...and maybe one close to you. check out this list http://2013.handmadebicycleshow.com/exhibitors/

btw. my true temper s3 road bike is ~14.5 ~ 16lbs depending on what wheelset i use...so weight should not be a consideration of carbon vs steel imho


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## aureliajulia (May 25, 2009)

Your inseam doesn't have that much to do with whether you can ride a wsd bike. Arm length and torso are more important. With short arms (reach), and the requirement of a TT less than 525, a WSD should be about right. 

I have long legs, short torso, and long arms, and need a men's bike. I also have to raise the saddle quite a lot. Felt makes a lot of nice bikes per your requirements. There are plenty of carbon bikes out there in your size.

You may want to post on Team Estrogen Cycling forums too for some specific bike recommendations. I can only give very general advice as my bike fit is much difference from yours. 

Good luck!


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm about the same size as the OP. Ride a 49cm Bianchi XL Boron. It took a lot of playing around with the stem and bars for me to get my fit right. I've ended up with a 110 stem and 38cm FSA Omega compact bars. Couldn't be happier. Most of the handlebars out there are made to fit that normal sized American guy with a wider spread, longer reach and a deeper drop. For some reason, a lot of manufacturers will throw these bars on their smaller frames. Take into consideration your stem and bars when you are fitting your bike. It made a huge difference for me.


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## joejeweler (Jun 29, 2012)

CvilleDan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm a short guy (5'4" 28 inch inseam) with a relatively long torso and relatively shorter legs and arms. For the past three years, I've been riding a 2006 Specialized Elite with a top tube length of 525 mm. I've been fitted and am reasonably comfortable on my current bike, but I find that the best fit still has me constantly moving towards the front of my saddle, since the top tube is really too long (and I've been told this at various fittings).
> 
> ...


Since you stated that you have been reasonable comfortable on your current bike, have you considered trying a shorter stem?

On my 1977 Schwinn Paramount, the 49cm frame is a bit small for me, BUT the top tube is exceptionally long even by today's standards. (55cm, or 21 5/8")

I use a 50mm Thomson Elite mtn bike stem and added a quill to threadless converter and 3" riser Sunlite handlebars and now makes a fine, comfortable commuter. Bringing the handlebars up also shorten the effective TT length as far as your body's concerned.


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## BostonG (Apr 13, 2010)

I’m 5’4” on the dot. My “A” ride is the Tarmac (2011) in a 49cm. TT is 518mm (according to their published specs). I had a basic pro fitting and it feels perfect to me. I can even stand to lengthen it a mm or two. So you may want to put the Tarmac (or Allez) on your list to check out.

I also have a Giant Defy size small (2007 I think but am not positive). It needed some work getting it to fit me and I still much prefer the way the tarmac fits. 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but I find the short reach bars to be more comfy than standard bars, and the shorter distance saves some space on your overall reach. While on the topic, SRAM shifters are adjustable, which is a nice feature if your fingers/hands are a little shorter or smaller than average. I had mine adjusted at the fitting and I can shift like a champ. That matters less if you don’t spend much time in the drops. For a crit, it’s a very noticeable feature.

In general, 5’4” is well within the offerings of major brands. You shouldn’t have a problem finding many different bikes that are your size and can fit well.


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## Blackbeerthepirate (Apr 26, 2011)

BostonG said:


> I’m 5’4” on the dot. My “A” ride is the Tarmac (2011) in a 49cm. TT is 518mm (according to their published specs). I had a basic pro fitting and it feels perfect to me. I can even stand to lengthen it a mm or two. So you may want to put the Tarmac (or Allez) on your list to check out.
> 
> I also have a Giant Defy size small (2007 I think but am not positive). It needed some work getting it to fit me and I still much prefer the way the tarmac fits.
> 
> ...


^This^
Shimano has a little spacer that shortens up the brake lever reach. I don't know if they have it for all the grades, But I put in a set on newer 105s for someone, and a pair of Ultegras for somebody else. Takes a dope like me a couple of minutes to put them in, so I'm sure anyone can do it. In both cases, the spacers made a big difference.

I have Campagnolo on my bike and have no problems. I've heard bigger guys complaining how small the Campy stuff is.


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## ProBikeSupply_Kyle (Oct 16, 2012)

*Smaller Frames*

I've built several bike for guys of your size. A few really good options are the Look 695 prob in a size x-small or a TIME RX instinct or Fluidity depending on your riding style. The toptube length will be in the 49 to 50cm range on the time frames and the look will be a 51. I did see that someone said that you should not go with an ISP, even at your height you will have no problem with an ISP it will actually be more comfortable of a ride than the standard post. If you have questions you can check out our site pro bike supply dot com


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## mikeyc38 (Sep 8, 2011)

I'm 5'2" and my Scott CR1 Pro in xxs (47 cm) fits me great. I'm surprised no one has suggested Scott yet?


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## mikeyc38 (Sep 8, 2011)

ProBikeSupply_Kyle said:


> I've built several bike for guys of your size. A few really good options are the Look 695 prob in a size x-small or a TIME RX instinct or Fluidity depending on your riding style. The toptube length will be in the 49 to 50cm range on the time frames and the look will be a 51. I did see that someone said that you should not go with an ISP, even at your height you will have no problem with an ISP it will actually be more comfortable of a ride than the standard post. If you have questions you can check out our site pro bike supply dot com


I read a Bicyling review of the Time Instinct, it sounded great until he said that you should forget it if you're a smaller rider and looking for a more responsive ride 

Wonder which more responsive bikes would be recommended?


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## cww180 (Aug 31, 2008)

*Fit*

That is probably because you should have been on a 50cm Cannondale CAAD 10 and the fit would have been more in your range.



fazel said:


> I'm 5' 5.5", same body shape and on a XS TCR Advanced with a longer stem (110 instead of 90). Fits good, much better than the 52 cm CAAD 10 I had last year.


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## Tremblay (11 mo ago)

aclinjury said:


> a 5'4", 28" inseam (measured from crotch to ground) is not an anatomically atypical person. Sure it's under average for an American male, but not a midget here. A frame of 48-50cm is what you need.
> Try the Cervelo that Kontact said.
> 
> If you wanna go custom, then prepare to pay for it. Fitting is usually done by the shop representing the builder, or at the builder's shop. But the 2nd option is kinda hard to do if you live far away. Another thing many custom builders take a looong time to build your frame, so prepare to wait and maybe even be frustrated


So this person looks normal?I


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Tremblay said:


> So this person looks normal?I'm asking because I have the same body type and I always thought I looked weird.


Well, judging by your icon pic, you look kinda funny. BTW, thanks for re-opening a thread that's been dead for an entire decade....


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Well, judging by your icon pic, you look kinda funny.


Funnier than the Russian Troll Farmer with the beady eyes and caterpillar mustache?


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## jnbrown (Dec 9, 2009)

You might checkout Cannondale Synapse. It slopes way down to give a lot of standover height.
My wife is 5'2" and rides one in a 48cm which has 51.7 TT, there is also a 44cm with 50.5 TT.
She has trouble with reach and is using a really short stem and she likes it.
Also would recommend to look into a custom frame, steel or whatever.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

jnbrown said:


> You might checkout Cannondale Synapse. It slopes way down to give a lot of standover height.
> My wife is 5'2" and rides one in a 48cm which has 51.7 TT, there is also a 44cm with 50.5 TT.
> She has trouble with reach and is using a really short stem and she likes it.
> Also would recommend to look into a custom frame, steel or whatever.


I was a little surprised when I was frame shopping two years ago that there were more builders, and prices were more affordable than I expected. Not a cheap route to take but not prohibitive. Brooklyn has a bunch of frame builders and, while it’s not around the corner, but it’s also not unreasonable to go for the fitting. You could save a good bit by choosing a simple paint scheme in one color. If I needed it I wouldn’t hesitate to go custom steel.


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## pmf (Feb 23, 2004)

PBL450 said:


> I was a little surprised when I was frame shopping two years ago that there were more builders, and prices were more affordable than I expected. Not a cheap route to take but not prohibitive. Brooklyn has a bunch of frame builders and, while it’s not around the corner, but it’s also not unreasonable to go for the fitting. You could save a good bit by choosing a simple paint scheme in one color. If I needed it I wouldn’t hesitate to go custom steel.


The OP posted this in 2012. I'd guess he already bought a new bike, or maybe three, at this point.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

pmf said:


> The OP posted this in 2012. I'd guess he already bought a new bike, or maybe three, at this point.


Hmm. It came up in the threads area? I didn’t even look.


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