# Cat 4/5 Crit Racing



## chopper585

Is it me or are Cat 4/5 Crit races filled with sandbaggers? I seriously cannot comprehend how the lowest level of racing can have fields with solid cat 1 mountain bike racers in them. I know that I am bitter about this, but how many miles a week does one need to put in just to stay on the back of the main peloton during the first two laps of a Crit Race?

I come from a MTB racing background and I attempting to compete in local crit races and have been failing quite well at this. If I were to register at the lowest level of a mountain bike race (cat 3) I would be sandbagging like no other. 

I also find it amusing that the majority of cat 4/5 racers are competing on $6000 bikes? Come on, that is insane? 

I might just say screw Crit racing and just go back to mountain bike racing, and throw in some TT's where real fitness counts, and you cannot just hid in the middle of a group.

Will someone shed some light on this subject?


----------



## atown117

I will. I am a Podium level Cat 1 MTB'er who races as a 4/5 on the road. I tried and get exempted from it, but I was told I had to earn it so whatever I will take my dues and race with the 4/5's until I can upgrade outta there. I do admit I love dropping the whole field on climbs though it's quite entertaining. Crit's aren't to bad, but I usually try to do the majority of the work to make it even, and still end up in the top 5.


----------



## spade2you

If staying with the peloton is a problem, I suggest evaluating your training plan.


----------



## merryprankster

I just did a stage race this weekend that was 1/2, 2/3, and 5. 

I've only been riding road for like 4-5 months but I've been able to really get out and ride and usually hang with intermediate guys on group rides but I've been smoked in the 2 races I tried. I know some of these guys have been riding for quite a while.

Anyway, I signed up for the 5 and there were several guys there that normally ride in intermediate categories in local races, but they signed up for the beginner because several "really good, out-of-towners" were in the 1/2, which caused normal 1/2 to sign up 3/4, which in turn caused the 3/4s to sign up 5. 

I was able to keep up for the most part the entire race but would get dropped towards the end in the sprint...just not ready for that accelaration I guess. Didn't really bother me too much as I was able to stay up for the most part. Almost half the 5s that registered didnt show up after the first race because the pace was too fast.


----------



## chopper585

spade2you said:


> If staying with the peloton is a problem, I suggest evaluating your training plan.


See that is the issue, a training plan is needed for what would be equal to a beginner class... how do you explain this to average joe cyclist who is just attempting to get into racing that they need a $6000 road bike and a training plan, that will totally help the sport out. Might as well start doping...


----------



## Andrea138

A lot of women's races are open- meaning that all categories race together and are, in most instances, scored against each other. In my very first race, I was up against several very talented/experienced category 1 & 2 riders. 

Drink a cup of HTFU and train harder.


----------



## Wookiebiker

We have a guy around here who races "Pro" MTB class and does well at that level...and is a CAT 3 on the road. Up until last year he was a CAT 4 and was able to hand it to the field when he wanted to on a climb. The problem was he didn't race enough mass start road races to get the upgrade...which seems to be a problem with lots of top level MTB racers.

To answer your question though...you need to be in shape for 4/5 crits as the top guys in any catagory are alwasy going to be fast. Many of them move up quickly and are out of the 4/5's soon enough, but are replaced by others that are fast and moving up.

If you are not getting a solid 8-10 hours a week on the bike with some good interval work and hard group rides, you will likely struggle, even in the 4/5 field unless you have some natural talent.

BTW...it doesn't get any easier in the TT's


----------



## spade2you

chopper585 said:


> See that is the issue, a training plan is needed for what would be equal to a beginner class... how do you explain this to average joe cyclist who is just attempting to get into racing that they need a $6000 road bike and a training plan, that will totally help the sport out. Might as well start doping...


You seem easily intimidated. Perhaps road biking isn't your thing.


----------



## JimT

Hey Chopper dont get too down. I guess there is no real "beginner class". 
I have just started to seriously ride this year and hopefully I can compete in some crits next year. I have a $6000 bike but I wont use it out there. I will probably used a 07 Madone SL. I know I am going to get beat bad but I am going to try. I honestly dont think at my level of fitness the bike will make much of a difference, for that matter put someone who is a racer on my old bike I dont think it will make too big of a difference as long as it fits well and the drive train works.

Good luck and just keep trying


----------



## spade2you

Wookiebiker said:


> BTW...it doesn't get any easier in the TT's


...and if $6k bikes offend ya, wait til ya see some guys with full discs, deep dish or tri spoke fronts, aerodynamically enhanced skin suits........man I love TTs.


----------



## davidka

Does anyone else think that cat. 5 is meaningless if it's not offered as an exclusive category?

Don't lose hope Chopper, you might be better than you think. When you're not among the strongest guys out there position makes a huge difference. The most important thing is to try to stay near the front. When you're in the back you are spending more energy than the guys up front because you are having to re-accelerate from slow to fast at every corner. Up front you don't need to do that. Try to get out on some group rides to get your pack skills. Once you start getting more comfortable with that you will find it easier and easier to pick your spots.


----------



## Kerry Irons

*Uh, no*



merryprankster said:


> which caused normal 1/2 to sign up 3/4, which in turn caused the 3/4s to sign up 5.


So where were the officials? If you are a categorized racer, you can't sign up to ride in a lower category race just because you're afraid of the field in your category. It's a great story, but I don't think it happened.


----------



## spade2you

davidka said:


> Does anyone else think that cat. 5 is meaningless if it's not offered as an exclusive category?


I suppose if I were starting and that were the only race for a 4 and a 5, I'd be a bit ticked, but I'd hope that it wasn't a routine thing. Out of more than a dozen local races, my area only has 1 race that's 4/5 and I think 3s had an option to be in the 4/5 if they chose since the 1/2/3 was a really long RR.


----------



## Wookiebiker

spade2you said:


> ...and if $6k bikes offend ya, wait til ya see some guys with full discs, deep dish or tri spoke fronts, aerodynamically enhanced skin suits........man I love TTs.


Aside from the bike....You might be talking about me  


Team skinsuit (dimpled fabric and all)
Deep dish front wheel
Full disc rear
LG aero helmet
PI shoe covers
_*Old Fuji Aloha 1.0 bike*_

One of these days when I get the money, I'll spend it on a nice TT frame, fork and bar set up :thumbsup:


----------



## old_fuji

I entered a cyclocross race last fall as an approximate cat 4...They only had 2 divisions, one was class 1/2 and the other was 3/4. The 1/2 race was for sponsored team riders, and the 3/4 was for everyone else. The real weird thing was that every 1/2 racer I talked to said that the 3/4 race was MUCH more competitive than the 1/2, simply due to the weird class restrictions (sponsored vs. non). Even though the 3/4 class was supposed to be "Run what you brung, everyone welcome," all the good racers thought it was gonna be an easy win, and thus, the whole race became uber-competitive.

FWIW, That's my (very limited) racing experience..."Sandbagging" definitely is prevalent on some levels. Whether or not that's exactly what's happening with the OP, I don't know. The best advice I can give is to talk to other, more seasoned racers and find out everything you possibly can.


----------



## chopper585

I typically do train with cat 3s and some cat 2's one of which is a current cat 3 state crit champ and tt champ. I also regularly put in 200+ road miles a week plus a few hours pedaling dirt. If this is not enough time for cat 5 racing what is. As far as the tt comment I made above, the reason why I made it is that tt racing is the most honest form of racing out there. You cannot "use" anyone else to gain results.

I guess I'll just use the road bike for training and keep racing on the dirt.

A cup of htfu. That's funny chit.


----------



## spade2you

Wookiebiker said:


> Aside from the bike....You might be talking about me
> 
> 
> Team skinsuit (dimpled fabric and all)
> Deep dish front wheel
> Full disc rear
> LG aero helmet
> PI shoe covers
> _*Old Fuji Aloha 1.0 bike*_
> 
> One of these days when I get the money, I'll spend it on a nice TT frame, fork and bar set up :thumbsup:


LOL, as much as I enjoy my TT bike, I wish my main roadie could double as a TT and save the $. Although, there were a few guys at the last TT who stomped me without a lick of aero gear.  One of them was a "natural" who doesn't really follow any sort of training plan.


----------



## spade2you

chopper585 said:


> I typically do train with cat 3s and some cat 2's one of which is a current cat 3 state crit champ and tt champ. I also regularly put in 200+ road miles a week plus a few hours pedaling dirt. If this is not enough time for cat 5 racing what is. As far as the tt comment I made above, the reason why I made it is that tt racing is the most honest form of racing out there. You cannot "use" anyone else to gain results.
> 
> I guess I'll just use the road bike for training and keep racing on the dirt.
> 
> A cup of htfu. That's funny chit.


I understand why you enjoy TTs and it's honestly the same reason I enjoy them. 

200+ miles a week and you're having trouble with crits? My guess is that you simply need to incorporate better training into your diet. Crits aren't my thing, but I can usually handle them, although I got gapped the second after I was gassed in my first crit of the year. Anyway, you sound like the perfect candidate to pick up a good training program. You're training a lot, but if you're struggling with a crit, you simply need to work on specific efforts that train your body to have all out intervals for 30 minutes.

Contrary to popular belief, Cat 5 ain't easy. Those shorter distances in RRs and duration of crits means all out paces, plus a lot of wasted energy having to react to poor tactics.


----------



## seppo17

If there are a fair number of 4's in a 4/5 race that could be pretty rough for a new 5.

Just relax and try a couple more races before you give up.


----------



## chopper585

You are not kidding about poor tactics.


----------



## Wookiebiker

spade2you said:


> LOL, as much as I enjoy my TT bike, I wish my main roadie could double as a TT and save the $. Although, there were a few guys at the last TT who stomped me without a lick of aero gear.  One of them was a "natural" who doesn't really follow any sort of training plan.


With Di2 you theoretically could  

Slap on some aero bars with Di2 bar end shifters, deep dish front and disc rear wheels and drop your stem a bit and chances are you would be in a close position to your TT bike.

The difference would probably be around a 1% decrease in overall speed and would climb much better for hilly ITT's.

I'd love to be able to minimize the number of bikes I have by doing something like that...but at this time, it's unrealistic


----------



## spade2you

Wookiebiker said:


> With Di2 you theoretically could
> 
> Slap on some aero bars with Di2 bar end shifters, deep dish front and disc rear wheels and drop your stem a bit and chances are you would be in a close position to your TT bike.
> 
> The difference would probably be around a 1% decrease in overall speed and would climb much better for hilly ITT's.
> 
> I'd love to be able to minimize the number of bikes I have by doing something like that...but at this time, it's unrealistic


Ya know, I got to thinking about that, then remembered how much Di2 costs. Somehow it costs more than what I spent on my TT bike w/components. LOL, it's never THAT easy.


----------



## spade2you

chopper585 said:


> You are not kidding about poor tactics.


Keep in mind poor tactics are often replaced with team tactics. So, you're still getting screwed!


----------



## DesnaePhoto

I started road racing this year. Many of the earlier events were 4/5 events, which was really discouraging. Simply because other 5's were able to kick my butt alone in the crit -- who needed the next cat to be adding to the pressure? 

Take the events with a grain of salt. Have a goal for each of them. Important one is to have fun. My last crit, my goal was to stay with the pack. (I currently have a STRONG dislike for crits) My last RR had a goal of maneuvering through the pack. Learning lots; having fun. 

The dynamics on the road are completely different than on dirt. Much more of a team effort on the road. are you riding unattached or with a team? Are you doing group rides? 

Oh, my first crit, I walked away saying "I'm going back to dirt. Screw this." I love RR and won't give it up, even for dirt riding.


----------



## Wookiebiker

spade2you said:


> Ya know, I got to thinking about that, then remembered how much Di2 costs. Somehow it costs more than what I spent on my TT bike w/components. LOL, it's never THAT easy.


Give it a year or two...They will have an Ultegra level group and the prices will drop as more people purchase them and they develop cheaper ways to produce the parts.


----------



## chopper585

I typically do two group road rides a week, one moderate ride and one fast if you get dropped too bad ride. About 1/2 of the riders in the groups race, most on teams from others areas. I'm new to the road stuff so I'm unattached. The rest of my riding is solo.


Being on a team in mtb races doesn't much mean more than being a part of something.


----------



## oroy38

Doesn't matter if you're riding 200+ miles a week if you're not using those miles wisely. I know some Cat 1s and 2s that put in 200 miles a week, usually less, but they're faster than an ostrich on meth. The biggest problem people have in crits is the constant attacks that happen over and over, and they have trouble recovering from them. The only way to get better at that is to do intervals, lots of them.

Look up HIIT and do some Tabata workouts. You might puke, but they're good for you.

And yes, a healthy dose of HTFU does help.


----------



## heathb

I agree with the suggestion to do intervals and simulate the low rate of recovery that is norm with crits. At this point it's all about proper training, it might take a year or two before it all starts clicking, so be patient.

As for the $6K bikes, I'll agree it's stupid that's why I use my $2K S1 for crits and RR. MTB'ers often have a different outlook on gear, an outlook that I share. I've been complaining for years about the rich boys lining up with new bikes every time I blink, but I say let them do it, I'm not about to bust my rear end to pay for another $5K bike like I have in the past. Road racers as far a demographic is concerned tend to come from a professional background, make at least $75K a year and tend to be a more driven to succeed type. As for me I don't fit that profile, I'm a lazy 36 year old, I make about $50K/yr, no kids, no need for a wife, crappy car that was paid off 10 years ago, crappy house that I paid off 5 years ago. I show up at the races, do my thing and pack it up and leave. If you adopt that kind of attitude the bling that most of these guys are trying to strut won't mean diddly.

And the Cat 4/5 races can be very intimidating if you're just starting out depending on how zealous your organizers are about getting rid of the sandbaggers. Last year they cleaned house in my area and made the whole lot of them that had been racing Cat 5 for years upgrade. It's kind of fun to see a lot of new faces in the beginner categories for a change, the amount of DNF in the category have gone down drastically thanks to these riders not being driven into the ground by what amounts to a Cat 3.


----------



## Alaska Mike

The way I see it, everyone who is faster than me is a sandbagging doper, and everyone who is slower than me is an asset to the organization.

I got my patootie handed to me Sunday, as I burned myself out chasing down stronger racers and pulling the group around. By the last lap, I had nothing left and faded to mid-pack after a leg cramp locked me up. Since I was only using the race as a guage of fitness, I really didn't worry about it too much. Looks like I have some work to do to catch up to those doping sandbaggers that were ahead of me.


----------



## ZoSoSwiM

I'm racing my 2nd crit this weekend.. I'm in the best shape of my life right now and compared to 2 years ago when I last raced I'm 45 pounds lighter.. I'm hoping I do well on Saturday.. With that in mind I still won't be totally surprised if I get dropped. I don't race so I have no real experience. Sure I train 200ish miles a week with some intervals and hard efforts but NOTHING can compare to how far you push yourself with other people.

If I can stay with the group in the Cat5 race I'll be very happy.


----------



## chopper585

oroy38 said:


> Doesn't matter if you're riding 200+ miles a week if you're not using those miles wisely. I know some Cat 1s and 2s that put in 200 miles a week, usually less, but they're faster than an ostrich on meth. The biggest problem people have in crits is the constant attacks that happen over and over, and they have trouble recovering from them. The only way to get better at that is to do intervals, lots of them.
> 
> Look up HIIT and do some Tabata workouts. You might puke, but they're good for you.
> 
> And yes, a healthy dose of HTFU does help.


Look up Crossfit, you might puke faster.


----------



## 32and3cross

chopper585 said:


> I typically do train with cat 3s and some cat 2's one of which is a current cat 3 state crit champ and tt champ. I also regularly put in 200+ road miles a week plus a few hours pedaling dirt. If this is not enough time for cat 5 racing what is. As far as the tt comment I made above, the reason why I made it is that tt racing is the most honest form of racing out there. You cannot "use" anyone else to gain results.
> 
> I guess I'll just use the road bike for training and keep racing on the dirt.
> 
> A cup of htfu. That's funny chit.



You really don't get road racing is you don't under stand the getting results on the road will always involve "using" others. BTW if you are riding that much and you can't hang you training is wrong. I ride 6-10 hours a week and can hang in the 1,2 crits and really race in the masters, you need to add intensity to your training.


----------



## chopper585

End of story.


----------



## tommyrhodes

I'm a new cat 5 this year. I found the biggest shock for me was the intensity at which I was expected to learn pack RACING. I do 1 or 2 group rides a week and they in no way prepared me for Cat 5 racing. My understanding is that 5 is supposed to be where you learn pack skills and safe riding. From my experience that's not what's happening. imho it would be nice to have a level lower than 5 for complete noobs. Speeds would be a little slower and there would be no prize money or points. It would not be a mandatory step like cat 5 is. Then when you get comfortable racing you can move to cat 5. Maybe its just me but I did not finish my first 5 crits with the pack. Now staying with the packs not a major issue. Because I've learned pack skills.


----------



## csh8428

I decided to get back into racing this year. I was a nationally ranked speedskater for 15 years prior to that last couple years of cycling. 

My only gripe about the Cat 5 races isn't necessarily the intensity, but when someone is clearly head and shoulders above the entire pack. I just did an RR a couple weeks ago. It was 32 miles with only about 8 miles of hillish terrain, not even hard climbing, yet the leader managed to get away from the pack for 20 miles or so and won with a 1:15 margin. The average speed for the race was 22.5mph. About half the pack was dropped 15 miles in and the rest(including me) pretty much finished in a bunch sprint at the end.

For someone to be able to keep a speed above 22.5mph avg over 20miles by themselves and ahead of a pack with climbs=you're a Cat too low.

As far as crits are concerned, its usually the bad tactics that get ya. I was really surprised in my first crit a couple years ago. I already had tactics and understood the dynamics of racing(ie apexing). I was mid-pack going into the first corner at 23-25mph, I didn't even bother touching the brakes and headed for the apex.. BIG mistake. Everyone in front of me slammed on their brakes, didn't apex, and then hauled ass out of the corner. Same thing happened every corner for the entire race! After a while I just decided to hang out in the back and could move from the back to the front in 1 corner whenever I wanted by simply diving for the apex and not braking. Nobody was ever at the apex and since I had so much momentum coming out I didn't have to pick it back up again on the exit. *Moral of the story: Cat 5 crits=interval hell*


Craig


----------



## Sonomasnap

A few comments/thoughts.

First, Cats are not about ability but results.

In my region (NYC) Cat5 is never mixed with any other Cat. After 10 group starts and finishes you move up to Cat4. Some of our races are 4/3, many are Cat4 only. We also usually run a Pro/1/2 which sometimes includes 3's.

Masters are always 1-4.

Cat5 races are intended to get riders use to pack riding. Don't worry about results but rather learn how to stay out of trouble, ride towards the front, conserve energy and sure, try a break or 2 if you feel strong. Get your 10 races in and then race with the 4's.

Regarding sandbagging as someone already commented you can not race down in categories. The closest thing to sandbagging in NYC is when the 3's have a choice to race Pro/1/2/3 or 3/4 and ride with the 4's.

All that said, you seem to have a very defeatist attitude. Seriously, did you expect to roll into your first crit and win? The attacks, acceleration, group riding skills all make crits very hard and usually very fast.

Stick with it cuz you can't know if this is for you after 1 or 2 races. We all ask ourselves why we are doing this at least every couple of races when we are redlining and dying just to hang on but then somehow you do and get in a position to sprint for a result.

Pain IS the name of the game.


----------



## merryprankster

Kerry Irons said:


> So where were the officials? If you are a categorized racer, you can't sign up to ride in a lower category race just because you're afraid of the field in your category. It's a great story, but I don't think it happened.


We don't have any sanctioned races where I live so there are no "officials" and riders are free to sign up how they choose.


----------



## spade2you

merryprankster said:


> We don't have any sanctioned races where I live so there are no "officials" and riders are free to sign up how they choose.


Out of curiosity, where do you live since there aren't any sanctioned races?

I'm in an area with a very small cycling scene, but all of the road races are still USAC sanctioned. There are a few training rides, but everything else is still sanctioned.


----------



## merryprankster

The southernmost part of Texas in the Rio Grande Valley. The races are usually put on by LBS or clubs. The cycling scene has really started booming in the last few years here but there's only a handful of races a year still.


----------



## chopper585

I find it interesting the most that people pn here simply criticize. I do thank those who have actually taken the time to point out legitimate issues and give advice. HTFU is not advice. 

Did I expect to win? No, I did expect to do a bit better than my first crit which was 2 months ago, and that was clearly not the case. My legs were wrecked from the week, but again thinking that it was the lowest level of racing this would not matter. I did look back at my lap data from my GPS and I found it interesting that while I was solo from lap 2 on my max speeds were mid 29 mph, and my average was mid 23 mph for the duration of the event until I was lapped and pulled. This was a .8 mile course with a short accent and decent in the middle with a 15 mph wind blowing down the accent.


----------



## spade2you

merryprankster said:


> The southernmost part of Texas in the Rio Grande Valley. The races are usually put on by LBS or clubs. The cycling scene has really started booming in the last few years here but there's only a handful of races a year still.


I suppose if you're happy with it, it's alright, but I'd suggest you check out a few USAC events. I can't bash your scene, but friends of mine told me about some non-USAC races in some bordering states and it sounded semi-sketchy. I've heard of TT bikes and track bikes making it to crits.....did not end well.


----------



## Sonomasnap

So different up here in NYC. I think I have done around 20+ races this year already. Have 3 this week alone. Huge scene here between Manhattan, Brooklyn, NJ and outlying areas. 

Crit tonight, Central Park Sat. and Prospect Park in Brooklyn on Sat.

Did a major hill race Housatonic Hills this weekend and came back to the city to watch the Pro Harlem Crit.

Here the issue is not where is a race but which races to do.


----------



## spade2you

chopper585 said:


> I find it interesting the most that people pn here simply criticize. I do thank those who have actually taken the time to point out legitimate issues and give advice. HTFU is not advice.
> 
> Did I expect to win? No, I did expect to do a bit better than my first crit which was 2 months ago, and that was clearly not the case. My legs were wrecked from the week, but again thinking that it was the lowest level of racing this would not matter. I did look back at my lap data from my GPS and I found it interesting that while I was solo from lap 2 on my max speeds were mid 29 mph, and my average was mid 23 mph for the duration of the event until I was lapped and pulled. This was a .8 mile course with a short accent and decent in the middle with a 15 mph wind blowing down the accent.


HTFU is advice, just not specific or helpful.  

If your racing with wrecked legs, I think you REALLY need a good training plan. It's not all about training, but utilizing rests/tapers to allow your legs to have the most power on race day. If you have the luxury of riding 200 miles a week (yes, I'm jealous!), you have plenty of time to be using programs that train your climbing, sprinting, TT skills, crit skills, etc.


----------



## bmxhacksaw

I guess it depends on expectations. I did my first (licensed) RR this year and knew that as soon as the road tilted up I would be off the back. I was prepared to just do my thing and finished 33rd. But I persevered and kept training and the next RR I finished 16th and well ahead of some locals that were historically stronger than me. My goal event this year is our downtown Crit. I've never done a crit but I'm looking forward to it. I found out that my class is combined 4/5. Oh well. Then last night the Cat 3 that I ride with a lot told me that he got reclassified back to Cat 4 and would be racing in my class for the crit. I can look at it in a negative or a positive. For me I choose positive. Now I have a known quantity to look at in the race and a familiar wheel. I've been fretting about should I go with attacks, should I be patient, what should I do? But now I have somebody that I know has good tactics to "mimic". There are always going to be sandbaggers and fast guys but I'm realistic about my abilities and base my expectations accordingly. I am satisfied knowing that in the span of one month and two RR's I made a marked improvement and the fact that people notice and comment on my improvements brings enough satisfaction.


----------



## bmxhacksaw

Of course, If I go off the back in the Crit I'll be pissed.


----------



## chopper585

Both crits that I have done were USAC events. 

As far as the wrecked legs, it was not on purpose. I had 6 days off the bike cause of rain leading into the week and got a little over zealous with my riding, did everything I could the day before the event for recovery, and the morning of. No dice. With a USAC Pro XCT event on tap this weekend I have to be more carefull. Fast Group RR tonight (if no rain), Moderate Group RR tomorrow, Dirt TT on Thurs (fast & short), rest / recovery on friday, race on Saturday. If my legs are feeling it a RR on Sunday.


----------



## oroy38

chopper585 said:


> Look up Crossfit, you might puke faster.


Please, I've been crossfitting since I was a high school freshman. There's nothing impressive about it.

All else aside:
I don't see the problem people have with people riding $5,000+ bikes in races. Most of us will never be pro cyclists, and part of our joy of riding IS what we ride. I ride some pretty expensive bikes, and I feel like they add to the dream that every weekend warrior has. Having all the cool gear is something that people enjoy. I understand how impractical it might be to race on a $5,000 bike if there's a crash, but if you're getting dropped on these crits, then maybe it's working for them and you should consider upgrading?


----------



## zosocane

chopper585 said:


> Both crits that I have done were USAC events.


There is your answer. You've done 2 crits. Dude, don't worry -- you simply need more race experience. I got blown off the back my first 3 or 4 crits. You'll start to learn that you need to pedal through turns, you need to be at least in the middle, you should go into easier gears before hitting a turn, avoid using the brakes, notice where the wind is coming from, etc., etc. etc. You will pick this up after 5 to 10 crits. You're not going to pick this up on the local hammer ride because those rides exhibit the characteristics of a road race which aren't riding balls-out in circles. Only if you're getting dropped after 10 crits, then come back and post.

200 miles a week?? Perfect!! Of course you could get on a special training plan and get a trainer, but you know what? You're not aspiring to cat 3 yet. You're learning how to race, and in the US most racing are intense crits with their own tactical nuances. Damn, I wish I had the time to train 200 miles a week. If I can get 150 I'm lucky. There is a book called "Racing Tactics for Cyclists" by Thomas Prehn. Look on Amazon. Best $15 you can spend. Shhh! There are tons of little racing tips in there that you won't get from the local group rides!

Bottom line -- You're doing great! Register for the next race. Race! Get dropped? Ok. Register for the next race. Race! Get dropped? Ok. Register for the next race. Race. Ahh, now you're hanging in much longer! Why? Because you're getting the race experience.

DON'T WORRY about our fellow poseurs racing $5K bikes (I'm one of them). Ignore it. Of course, once you start hanging in the pack and your morale is tops, you're going to start dropping more coin into your racing weaponry and go poseur too.

And DON'T QUIT.


----------



## chopper585

Thanks!,

I'll check out the book also.


----------



## krisdrum

Have to agree with those shouting "don't give up". I'm about to torture myself with crit number 9 for the season. I've been blown off the back every single race. I look for my small victories, as someone else mentioned. Staying with the pack as long as possible, working on my drafting comfort, TTing my way around the course once I get dropped, etc. There are plenty of things I should/could be doing to further improve and be more competitive. 9 out of 10 of them come down to my fitness and body composition. I raced cyclocross last fall and had a similar experience. I was thrilled when I wasn't dead f'n last. I still am. And I'm just racing other 5s, none of this 4/5 stuff. Stick it out, keep trying to learn something every race and you'll see improvement and you'll have at least something to be happy about.


----------



## spade2you

chopper585 said:


> Thanks!,
> 
> I'll check out the book also.


Friel's training bible would be excellent to help you with training and tapering to get the most out of your training. It's technical and boring, but you have a lot of time to train. I'd like to think if most of us could ride that much, we'd be able to lap a Cat 5 field.


----------



## oroy38

I should have read more carefully, I didn't realize that you had only done 2 crits.

Please understand that what I did say was in jest...mostly 

Don't worry about it. I got blown away my first dozen crits. Intervals and more crits did the trick, and also practice cornering. Being able to corner successfully is probably the most important thing in crit racing. It took me ages to corner confidently. Luckily I was kind enough to the other riders to stay on the outside on corners so that if I did lose my line, I wouldn't hit anyone.


----------



## chopper585

The reason I have more time to ride is cause I don't shave my legs (yet)...


----------



## mellowyellowCJ7

My first three races last year did not go well, but this year the penny hit the bell for me and I'm enjoying the race as it happens. All the pictures show me smiling.  I have a couple top 10's and I've been pulled twice. Fatty doesn't climb well. :lol: If it is flat, then I have a shot at a podium. I'm learning my strengths.
I don't know much, but I wanted to comment on something you wrote:
"Fast Group RR tonight (if no rain), Moderate Group RR tomorrow, Dirt TT on Thurs (fast & short), rest / recovery on friday, race on Saturday. If my legs are feeling it a RR on Sunday."
I've been told repeatedly that I should ride the day before my race for 1-1.5 hours with three efforts and then drink my recovery drink. I think your day of rest should be on Thursday not Friday.
Last comment about 4-5 races…I like them a lot! It is like a little window on how a pack should ride. The pack rides smoother and they’re faster through the corners. The group rides tighter and the draft is more effective. Why else would I want to upgrade?


----------



## Andrew1

The only real difference between cat 5 and the 3/4 is duration- speed's about the same. Has anyone else noticed that? I had the strength to train with mostly cat 2/3 guys on group rides and whatnot, but when I made the jump to actually racing in the 4's, those extra 15 minutes hurt a lot. 

I was a pretty good mountain biker when I started racing crits in high school and won my second cat 5 crit by just pulling the last 2 laps so fast that no one could come around. Do that until you are a cat 4, and then the racing gets more fun. If you can't do that, do intervals until you can. Just don't give up.


----------



## estone2

Andrew1 said:


> The only real difference between cat 5 and the 3/4 is duration- speed's about the same. Has anyone else noticed that? I had the strength to train with mostly cat 2/3 guys on group rides and whatnot, but when I made the jump to actually racing in the 4's, those extra 15 minutes hurt a lot.
> 
> I was a pretty good mountain biker when I started racing crits in high school and won my second cat 5 crit by just pulling the last 2 laps so fast that no one could come around. Do that until you are a cat 4, and then the racing gets more fun. If you can't do that, do intervals until you can. Just don't give up.


Uh, the difference between Cat 5 and Cat 3 is _huge_. It sounds like you're a Cat 4... 4's aren't too different from 5's, for the sole reason that it's not a merit-based upgrade. It's a 10 races and out upgrade. 

The upgrade to 3's actually requires results, and as such, once you get into 3's, accelerations are harder, speeds higher, attacks and whatnot better placed, and people actually know how to, you know... ride.


----------



## Undecided

merryprankster said:


> We don't have any sanctioned races where I live so there are no "officials" and riders are free to sign up how they choose.


Must have made it challenging for the higher-category riders to upgrade.


----------



## Ghost234

I'm guilty of buying a bike (now ranging in $6,000 CDN) before I started road racing.... I've been a mountain biker for several years and enjoyed that, but started road cycling 2 years ago and fell in love with it. Even if I didn't race, I would still perceive my purchase as being worthwhile and I'm very happy with the hours I've spent with it. 

I'm in a very similar situation as the OP. I train on the bike for about 200-250 miles a week, do about 8 hours of weights a week, and if I have free time run and swim. I'm still categorized as Elite 4 (category 5), but I still go balls to the wall whenever I really want to push it. Most guys in my cycling club are S1's (cat 1 equivalent?) and I join them on weekly hammerfests. I still lack the raw power output to pull for sustained periods but I do my best to hang with them. Many of the S3 guys tell me that the hammerfests that they do are actually much faster and harder paced than their races - and those S3 guys always seem to finish in the top 10. I did a ride today with 2 S3 guys and after 80km we averaged 37.6km/h. But despite this I still doubt I could crack the podium, so I just keep on training. 

Best advice I can give to the OP is to just stick with it. Joe Friel's book is great, but I would also recommend Weight Training for Cyclists - within a month and a half of weight training I've seen definite improvement.


----------



## heathb

spade2you said:


> Friel's training bible would be excellent to help you with training and tapering to get the most out of your training. It's technical and boring, but you have a lot of time to train. I'd like to think if most of us could ride that much, we'd be able to lap a Cat 5 field.


The problem with Friels training bible is that he doesn't give specific workouts, his bible could have been much shorter, possibly narrowed down to just a few chapters. 

IMO you could sum up the training for most crits as little more than:
1. Length of crit.
2. Sustaining your LT for this time period.
3. Once or twice a week hit 30 second intervals at your AT with 30 second recovery over and over until you've gotten used to the pain. Extend the time of these intervals as pain threshold increases. Find a track or a half mile loop that you can ride without interuptions, I'm lucky enough to have such thing that I can ride all night long, it's great for creating controled workouts that put me in the red zone.
4. Bike handling skills may not be a problem since the OP is a MTB'er, but who knows what his cornering is like on pavement in a pack. 

You could keep your workouts to less than a hour a day as long as you've got a specific workout in mind. Remember to keep spinning two days leading up to the race, I prefer around 2 hours to keep everything firing, have a breif workout before your race starts on some rollers with a few hard efforts. These things should prepare you to at least hang on a little longer. 

Avoid LSD rides if you want to get good at crits. IMO crits are AT rides and you'll see the most improvements if you train in the same many as you race.


----------



## spade2you

heathb said:


> The problem with Friels training bible is that he doesn't give specific workouts, his bible could have been much shorter, possibly narrowed down to just a few chapters.


True. While he doesn't give out the specific workouts, he suggests types of workouts, which is good enough for me. It would be nice if there was a Cliff's Notes section since it's a very DRY read. 

Nonetheless, it seemed pretty beneficial, although I had to deviate from the plan due to getting married this summer and a bunch of pricey home repairs. I plan on using it again next year, but perhaps starting the cycle a month earlier and possibly adding power.


----------



## chopper585

As previously noted, the handling skills are not an issue at all due to the MTB background. I'm new to road racing / Crits but I've been MTB racing since '93 and pedaling both on and off road for quite a long time. 

I believe the nail has been hit on the head with the interval work. Typically I relied on Mtb'ing for my intervals since that's what most of the dirt riding is around here (western WI), all up or down. That was also paired with the fact that until this season I was also racing Watercross at a high level (standup jetskis) which is similar to 7-14 minute intervals, there is not rest duing one of those races. This year it's been mostly road miles, hilly road miles, but no real structured intervals. The dirt riding has been difficult for the past month since it's been raining almost daily. I know that I have a decent base in, so now I'll work on cranking up the power with HIIT's and other varied intervals to mimic race surges. I'm hoping to hit a couple of the Superweek crits on the WI/IL border in mid / late july. After that, there are really no more Crits for the year around here. It seems they start in april and end in july / august. I wish they started in May/June and ended in August/Sept. At anyrate, power is what I need, that is forsure.

Thanks!


----------



## litespeedchick

FWIW, I think the Cats are just different in MTBing. People in the lowest mtb class are liable to show up with flat pedals. Lowest cat road racers have a lot more experience and intensity, at least from what I've seen.

I'm a Cat 1 mtb-er (although a semi-crappy one) and Cat 1 roadie girls can bust my ass 6 ways from Sunday. (so can a number of cat 4 girls, come to think of it.) YMMV.


----------



## bmxhacksaw

heathb said:


> Avoid LSD rides


Dude.


----------



## bmxhacksaw

mellowyellowCJ7 said:


> I don't know much, but I wanted to comment on something you wrote:
> "Fast Group RR tonight (if no rain), Moderate Group RR tomorrow, Dirt TT on Thurs (fast & short), rest / recovery on friday, race on Saturday. If my legs are feeling it a RR on Sunday."
> I've been told repeatedly that I should ride the day before my race for 1-1.5 hours with three efforts and then drink my recovery drink. I think your day of rest should be on Thursday not Friday.


FTW! I usually ride stronger on the second or third day after a rest day.

BTW, Do you own a yellow jeep?


----------



## CHT

chopper585 said:


> As previously noted, the handling skills are not an issue at all due to the MTB background. I'm new to road racing / Crits but I've been MTB racing since '93 and pedaling both on and off road for quite a long time.
> 
> I believe the nail has been hit on the head with the interval work. Typically I relied on Mtb'ing for my intervals since that's what most of the dirt riding is around here (western WI), all up or down. That was also paired with the fact that until this season I was also racing Watercross at a high level (standup jetskis) which is similar to 7-14 minute intervals, there is not rest duing one of those races. This year it's been mostly road miles, hilly road miles, but no real structured intervals. The dirt riding has been difficult for the past month since it's been raining almost daily. I know that I have a decent base in, so now I'll work on cranking up the power with HIIT's and other varied intervals to mimic race surges. I'm hoping to hit a couple of the Superweek crits on the WI/IL border in mid / late july. After that, there are really no more Crits for the year around here. It seems they start in april and end in july / august. I wish they started in May/June and ended in August/Sept. At anyrate, power is what I need, that is forsure.
> 
> Thanks!


Also keep in mind that no matter how much you train, etc., you just might not be a crit racer. If you train like you race you'll definitely start hanging with the pack, but you just might be better suited for road races given your MTB/climbing background and the amount of training miles you are putting in weekly (200+ miles a week training is not necessary for a Cat 5 or 4 crit if you train smart and with a specific purpose everytime you go out). While I can hang in crits, I'm not a big fan of "four corner" or "triangle" crits....it's not that I don't enjoy them, I just enjoy road racing more and it's what I'm built for (relatively lightweight climber). On the plus side, if you can hang with the pack in a crit and aren't afraid to fight for your position, you are always in it and have a chance to podium or take a top 10. In a road race, it can end very quickly or at least you can go from off the front to mid-pack finish very quickly if the race fractures.


----------



## tom_h

In the Calif large population centers (LA, San Diego, San Fran-San Jose), the cat5 crits are hard and fast. Same for the masters 50, 55, 60+ categories -- they're even slightly faster, but at least the riders are generally much better. Avg speeds can be 25-ish mph, with surges & attacks in the low-mid 30s.

In my limited expreince, crits place a large premium on anaerobic power (45-90 seconds) for the surges, accelerations, and sprints ... and then your "recovery" is just slightly under max sustainable power or Functional Threshold Power (FTP). I know some good TT racers who aren't nearly as good at crits ... they haven't developed and trained anaerobic power .

As others have said, building anaerobic power requires appropriately tailored intervals.

Many larger suburbs & cities have weekday group rides (especially Tuesdays), where the emphasis is on crit-like training on a semi-closed circuit. If it's available, do them. It's the next best thing to riding in actual races.


----------



## alexp247365

The best training for racing... is racing itself. 

Chopper, I'd say that if you want to be a better crit racer - you'll have to race more crits. By the volume of trianing you listed, you seem to have the physical ability to race, but it sounds like your lacking in the strategy section. 

Also remember, that alot of your competition is only focusing on the road, where you are riding road, and MTB?

This is my first year of racing, and I remember having the same conversations in my head as you are .. when will those 2-3 people that keep winning move on? Will I do better next race?

My first two races this season.. last place finishes for both... 

Persistence and learning from your mistakes are key though. Don't give up, and you'll see results for sure! 

Using myself as an example.... fast forward 13 races, and I have a Cat 4 lisence to show for it, and have taken top 15 in cat 3/4 race. No wins yet, but I honestly believe this is just training for next season.


----------



## A4B45200

Yup....Cat 4/5 races are fast no matter how much you train. The 4/5 race I did definitely had Cat 4 going on Cat 3 riders. I'm a rookie Cat 5 that trains about 120-150 miles a week w/ hard intervals. Even with 'my' best form of my life, I was at 95% max just to keep up mid-pack. Accelerations / surges put me way over 100% many times! Key to survival is being able to recover and to use the draft a much as possible. I was not trying to win...just trying not to get dropped! 

Just remember...no matter how hard you train, somebody else is training harder.


----------



## Gnarly 928

TTs...they are not really "Races" in that you aren't racing against another live person right there next to you...You are all racing against the clock, the elements, gravity...and the guy with the fastest time wins...

In a race, it is a race. Weaker riders who are better "racers" often win races...they won't win many time trials. On the other hand I ride and race with some really strong and fast TT guys who often do crappy in most wheel to wheel races...Some are just dumb and think that pure speed will win them the race...some don't like to get in there and dice it up..some just don't ever have a 'plan' or a clue...

It takes a lot of experience to 'learn' racing skills. You can be the strongest rider around and finish dead last, get beat by a smart 12yr old who knows how to suck wheel...You have to realize that the whole race is scored not on who is strongest or who's the best rider...it is who crosses the finish line first and that should be the point of your focus. Learn what you need to do to be there at the end and then learn how to win the sprint..As you develop skills, you will less often make tactical or physical errors that take you out of contention..Great racers are 'usually' right there at the end...


----------



## kokothemonkey

All you have to do is look at times and results. It seems like in a lot of races around the front range of CO, the winners from cat 3/4 would have been a top 10 and sometimes a top 5 result in cat1/2/pro. It's frustrating when you don't race consistently to have to deal with people like that in cat 4 races. I just don't expect to win any of them and do my best to hang on to the peloton because I know usually the top 5 cat 4 results are usually very very fast times.


----------



## Infini

Chopper - what races did you do? I race in the 4's in Wisconsin. Sometimes there are big difference in race intensity, depending on the course and how the race unfolds. 

For example - if you raced the La Crosse crit, that one was a killer. I was as fit as anyone else in that race and for parts of it I could barely hang on. Some races - Hartland was one - were basically piano until the last lap.


----------



## chopper585

Infani,

I did do the Cat4/5 race in La Crosse. That was my first Crit. I grew up in La Crosse and still currently reside there. I actually faired better than I thought I would in that crit (16th). The second crit that I did was the Cat4/5 in Menomonie, WI which was an amateur part of the Nature Valley GP (got lapped and pulled). I picked that Crit partially due to it's proximity to La Crosse, and because I attended college at UW Stout in Menomonie ('96-'00). It was pretty awesome watching the Pro's come into town and race also. I had aspirations of attending other WCA events, but have not been able to do so. If I can get my training to come around (which I am working at) I might attend a couple of the Superweek Crit races. I have heard that those races are really tough since people travel from all over the country even for the 4/5 races. It's really all that is left here for races this summer though. In the mean time I'll be doing some WORS racing, and possibly a MN series MTB race. Tuesday nights in La Crosse are also brutal. It varies from small fast groups to larger diverse groups, but always fast, and most the time never regrouping.


----------



## mellowyellowCJ7

bmxhacksaw said:


> FTW! I usually ride stronger on the second or third day after a rest day.
> 
> BTW, Do you own a yellow jeep?


I'm mellow and my jeep is yellow. 

I'm finding more and more that road riding is very training program intensive. Mountain biking for me (Cat 2) is still just staying in shape and putting up with pain almost like a timetrial but on dirt.


----------



## Infini

chopper585 said:


> Infani,
> 
> I did do the Cat4/5 race in La Crosse. That was my first Crit. I grew up in La Crosse and still currently reside there. I actually faired better than I thought I would in that crit (16th). The second crit that I did was the Cat4/5 in Menomonie, WI which was an amateur part of the Nature Valley GP (got lapped and pulled). I picked that Crit partially due to it's proximity to La Crosse, and because I attended college at UW Stout in Menomonie ('96-'00). It was pretty awesome watching the Pro's come into town and race also. I had aspirations of attending other WCA events, but have not been able to do so. If I can get my training to come around (which I am working at) I might attend a couple of the Superweek Crit races. I have heard that those races are really tough since people travel from all over the country even for the 4/5 races. It's really all that is left here for races this summer though. In the mean time I'll be doing some WORS racing, and possibly a MN series MTB race. Tuesday nights in La Crosse are also brutal. It varies from small fast groups to larger diverse groups, but always fast, and most the time never regrouping.


Yeah, the La Crosse crit was a tough one. It was kind of blowing apart during the 2nd half and was hard just to hang on. I didn't race in Menomonie, so no idea there. 

I haven't done any Superweek races so I can't say for sure, but you shouldn't expect them to be any harder than La Crosse. I did all of TOAD though, which did have some people who traveled from far for the 4's, and the races weren't any harder than the other WCA races.


----------



## S_Top_Sign

Superweek will be harder than La Crosse, count on it. July is usually when people are in peak form for the year around the mid west, and the ICC races draw them all out of hiding.

The WCA race turnouts have been kind of skimpy this year. As a 4 at superweek, count on a few of the races being 50-75 people, especially the road races. Superweek will be much larger, and much, MUCH more dangerous. Keep your wits about you  ToAD was larger this year, so that was probably a good experience to keep in mind.

To the OP. Just keep racing. Don't get discouraged. Very few people just jump into crits and fare well. It takes probably a dozen or so to get the feel for it - and you'll probably have a crash in there somewhere to shake your confidence. Get back up, dust off, HTFU and sign up for the next one. Eventually it pays off and you'll get a result. Oh, and don't take yourself too seriously. It's a goofy sport in the first place, but it's fun as hell, so just keep a good sense of perspective about it... You're riding your bike in circles, after all.


----------

