# Hard Cornering at Speed?



## 9.8m/s/s (May 7, 2006)

An tricks or tips on a road bike? I have a 45 mph+ hill near my house and rode it for the first time yesterday. The surface is perfect, but it takes a fairly hard right at the end. The problem I had was that as I set up for the turn my seat seemed to get in the way of proper body position. On my mountain bike I would just weigh the outside pedal and rail the turn, but I would also have the saddle dropped. As it was, dropping my outside leg didn't give me enough clearance as my leg is already stretched near the max in my normal pedaling stroke. Basically, I couldn't get my weight away from the saddle and onto my foot enough to make me comfortable not tapping the brakes. Almost felt like I was high centered. Is this just something that comes with time? 

FWIW, this is the first time all year I've found myself really wishing for more room, so I don't think it's bike fit, but I'm new to this.


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## andulong (Nov 23, 2006)

sometimes you have to use the brakes and slow down for the turns


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

The saddle is a control surface too. Pressing into the outside pedal is certainly helpful, but you don't actually need to lift your butt off the saddle. Put a little pressure on it with your inner thigh, too.

If you can't press into your pedal at the bottom of the stroke, your saddle is probably too high.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

9.8m/s/s said:


> my leg is already stretched near the max in my normal pedaling stroke.


Agree with AndrSwitch that your saddle is probably too high. Most riders' start point for saddle height adjustment is a knee angle of around 30 degrees at pedal bottom dead center.

Try what people call "countersteering." Once in the turn and leaning, put slight pressure on the inside handle bar—almost as if you wanted to steer out of the turn, away from the inside. The bike will lean more and tighten the radius. It's counterintuitive, but has a much more pronounced effect than weighting the outside pedal. Countersteering at speed is the only way to get you around a turn sometimes.


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## tommyrhodes (Aug 19, 2009)

Hit the brakes. 
At 45+ mph you better have a pretty wide turn or a very good life insurance policy.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

wim said:


> Try what people call "countersteering." Once in the turn and leaning, put slight pressure on the inside handle bar—almost as if you wanted to steer out of the turn, away from the inside. The bike will lean more and tighten the radius. It's counterintuitive, but has a much more pronounced effect than weighting the outside pedal. Countersteering at speed is the only way to get you around a turn *sometimes*.


No. It's the way, _always_. Countersteering isn't a secret optional technique. It's how you steer a bike at speed, whether you know it or not. Thinking about it consciously might help you improve technique, but not necessarily.

32f/s/s, I'd suggest you don't think so hard about weight placement on the pedals, but just center your weight on the bike, with weight low and shifted back a little, hands in the drops, look ahead to the turn, and lean bike and body together. If you slide back a little on the saddle you might find it doesn't seem to be in the way as much.


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## 9.8m/s/s (May 7, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I did the route again today and had a lot more success. 

To the first few posters- I should have clarified my position- I was trying to use the mountain bike technique- get off the back of the bike, way behind the saddle, weight over the rear axel. This was why I was getting high centered and having trouble with the seat. For 99.9% of my riding this year, I have no problem weighing the pedals at my seat height. 

Wim- Great tips and put together they worked. I use countersteering all the time in the woods, but it hadn't occurred to me to use it on something as wide open as a road. Worked like a charm. 

AndrwSwitch and JCavilla- Being on the saddle while descending is something I'm going to have to get used to. As I type this I am looking at one of the adverts on the side of the page and that is exactly what the rider is doing (the La Vuelta 2010 ad). It feels foreign, but as long as the road is good it makes sense. For traction (again on dirt) I am in the habit of leaning the bike more than my body unless I have a berm to work with. Going to need to convince myself there is tons of traction on the pavement.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> No. It's the way, _always_. Countersteering isn't a secret optional technique. It's how you steer a bike at speed, whether you know it or not. Thinking about it consciously might help you improve technique, but not necessarily.


No. You're talking about the "countersteering" you learn when you first get on a bike and need to keep the bike upright and going straight, and the "countersteering" you do when initiating a turn. In either case, you automate it quickly and stop thinking about it.

I was talking about a steady, conscious push on the handlebar which should feel as if you steer the bike away from the inside of the turn. The bar wiill push back at you and you need to keep up the pressure until you come out of the turn. This you never really automate unless you need to do it every day. Some people call this "countersteering" as well, so you see how people think the two "countersteerings" are one and the same.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

wim said:


> No. You're talking about the "countersteering" you learn when you first get on a bike and need to keep the bike upright and going straight, and the "countersteering" you do when initiating a turn. In either case, you automate it quickly and stop thinking about it.
> 
> I was talking about a steady, conscious push on the handlebar which should feel as if you steer the bike away from the inside of the turn. The bar wiill push back at you and you need to keep up the pressure until you come out of the turn. This you never really automate unless you need to do it every day. Some people call this "countersteering" as well, so you see how people think the two "countersteerings" are one and the same.


Just mind games, IMHO. Countersteering to intiate a turn, and countersteering during the turn to regulate lean (and therefore regulate the radius of the turn) are the same thing (again, IMHO), and anybody who rides a bike through a turn at high speed is doing it, whether they're doing it consciously or not. If it helps you to feel the turn, it works for you, and I don't have any problem with that. But if you go through a turn consciously pushing the bar, and I follow your line without thinking about anything but following the line, I think the video will show both of us doing the same thing with the bike. There just isn't another way to do it.

IMHO ;-)


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> Just mind games, IMHO. Countersteering to intiate a turn, and countersteering during the turn to regulate lean (and therefore regulate the radius of the turn) are the same thing (again, IMHO)


This I will agree to: the principle is the same (steer left > fall right / steer right > fall left). But one was automated a week after you started to ride a bike, the other takes a conscious act seemingly performed against all common sense. It doesn't come naturally, no matter how long you've been riding your bike.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

wim said:


> This I will agree to: the principle is the same (steer left > fall right / steer right > fall left). But one was automated a week after you started to ride a bike, the other takes a conscious act seemingly performed against all common sense. It doesn't come naturally, no matter how long you've been riding your bike.


Ride on, friend, and may all your turns be perfect.

I've gotta go ride home in the rain now. No high-speed turns tonight :-(


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> Ride on, friend, and may all your turns be perfect.


They never are. After I'm through a turn, I always think:could've done it just a little faster. 

Have a safe ride home.


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## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

tommyrhodes said:


> Hit the brakes.
> At 45+ mph you better have a pretty wide turn or a very good life insurance policy.


Agreed.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Bad move*



9.8m/s/s said:


> I was trying to use the mountain bike technique- get off the back of the bike, way behind the saddle, weight over the rear axel.


This is seriously contra-indicated for road bike descents. You're unweighting the front wheel and that is completely the wrong thing to do.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Re: counter steering. An easy way to remember this is push right to go right, push left to go left. If you have a problem putting all your weight on the outside pedal then your seat is definitely too high.

When entering a corner scan the road surface for debris, gravel, bumps, etc. Put ALL your weight on the outside pedal. Try to break it off. Slightly push forward on the appropriate side of the bar. Most important of all *DO NOT LOOK WHERE YOU'RE GOING! EVER!*Always look where you want to go. It's not enough to look with your eyes, you *MUST* turn your head. When you look at a spot your natural eye-hand coordination will take you directly to that spot. That's why it's so important to look where you want to go. This is surprisingly hard to do on a 2 wheeled vehicle. It feels very natural in a car, but not on a bike. If you're going into a high speed corner that has a guard rail & you look at the guard rail...guess what? If you avoid hitting the guard rail you will have been very fortunate. Remember, don't look where you're going. Turn your head, not just your eyes, and look down the road where you want to go.


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## Trek2.3 (Sep 13, 2009)

Never forget that everything is riding on* 2 square inches *of tire contact with the road surface. Work up you speed gradually. Never trust wet pavement. Never trust sandy pavement.


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## ARP (Mar 7, 2002)

*Did anyone talk about your position on the road?*

right hand turn start the turn near the centerline and flatten out the turn by shooting for the white edge line half way thru the turn, IOW hit the apex?


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

45mph that's it. Try sitting on your top tube. Your going too slow.


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## 9.8m/s/s (May 7, 2006)

ARP said:


> right hand turn start the turn near the centerline and flatten out the turn by shooting for the white edge line half way thru the turn, IOW hit the apex?



Thanks for the tip ARP. 

That brings up another question I was thinking about on my ride yesterday- At what point on a downhill do you get off the side of the road and start acting like a motorcycle/ car? Once I hit the speed limit, I usually stop worrying about people passing me from behind and get out in the middle of the road and find the best pavement. (Faster downhills only- not some 25mph road where it would really get drivers mad)


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## AtlantaR6 (Sep 9, 2010)

If I am keeping up with traffic (ie: consistent pace with the car in front of me) I ride in the center. If I am not keeping pace I move to the right. 

I was going 42 mph down a long hill yesterday I have driven on dozens of times. It's funny how the crappy concrete and frost heaves don't affect a car nearly as much! Almost had to clean out the Spandex when I got home.


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

9.8m/s/s said:


> Thanks for the tip ARP.
> 
> That brings up another question I was thinking about on my ride yesterday- At what point on a downhill do you get off the side of the road and start acting like a motorcycle/ car? Once I hit the speed limit, I usually stop worrying about people passing me from behind and get out in the middle of the road and find the best pavement. (Faster downhills only- not some 25mph road where it would really get drivers mad)



I usually do that when I get close to the speed limit. When I am descending fast I like to use the whole lane. So I start on the outside and sweep to the inside at the apex. Then sweep out agen on the exit.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

*Update*



wim said:


> This I will agree to: the principle is the same (steer left > fall right / steer right > fall left). But one was automated a week after you started to ride a bike, the other takes a conscious act seemingly performed against all common sense. It doesn't come naturally, no matter how long you've been riding your bike.


I did a couple of rides last weekend, and did a few of my favorite descents, which include some twisty sections with challenging turns. I got through them alive, going pretty much as fast as I could (spun out, no braking), and I never once thought consciously about which way I was pushing on the bars. I just leaned the bike and tried to make it go where I wanted to go.

I still say it's a mind game, NTTAWWT. All these complex tasks take some kind of psyching-up, and everybody doesn't do it the same way.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I also take the lane anywhere I think a car passing me would be sketchy. If someone gets stuck behind me, I'll yield when I think it's safe. I'd rather be a live and slightly irritating cyclist than a dead one, though.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> I did a couple of rides last weekend, and did a few of my favorite descents, which include some twisty sections with challenging turns. I got through them alive, going pretty much as fast as I could (spun out, no braking), and I never once thought consciously about which way I was pushing on the bars. I just leaned the bike and tried to make it go where I wanted to go.
> 
> I still say it's a mind game, NTTAWWT. All these complex tasks take some kind of psyching-up, and everybody doesn't do it the same way.


The answer is simple: you're a better (and probably more experienced) descender than I am. I'm serious: during hairy descents, I have to think about what to do or—I go into the bushes. So the points I made may have been influenced too heavily by personal experience, but I'm not entirely convinced.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

wim said:


> The answer is simple: you're a better (and probably more experienced) descender than I am. I'm serious: during hairy descents, I have to think about what to do or—I go into the bushes. So the points I made may have been influenced too heavily by personal experience, but I'm not entirely convinced.


As to the first point: not likely, but thanks for the undeserved compliment 

As for having to think about it, I have to think, too. But I'm never thinking, "I have to push on the right bar to go more left here." I'm thinking things like, "The radius of the turn tightens a bit up ahead there, and the pavement looks slightly iffy; I need to scrub a little speed right here so I won't overcook it; so I'll straighten up the turn a little bit here (lean out of turn a bit), and grab the brakes for a second, then tighten my turn (lean back into it, harder), now track the line I was shooting for." 

There's plenty of conscious thought, but it never seems to include, "to increase my left lean here I need to steer to the right." That part seems to be automatic. 

But as I said, so much about cycling, especially when it comes to high speeds, is a psych game. One poster suggested you *never forget* that you're riding on *2 square inches*. I submit that if you really follow that you'll crawl down all the hills gripping the brakes in terror. I'm very conscious of my skinny tires when I inspect them and check my QR and headset adjustment and brake function before the ride. I know my bike's as good as it can be; then when I ride, I ride.

Anyway, sounds like most of us are having fun ;-) Just out of curiousity, Wim, how old are you? I'm 60.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> Anyway, sounds like most of us are having fun ;-) Just out of curiousity, Wim, how old are you? I'm 60.


I'm 67, grew up for the most part in Northern Germany where there were no, zero, zip hills and started riding bikes in earnest as a 13-year old on an indoor track, not the road. So that may explain a few things about my not being a _natural_ descender. I've always felt best on the track, in particular, doing short TT events like the kilo (now reduced to 500 meter for the 60+ age group).


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

wim said:


> I'm 67, grew up for the most part in Northern Germany where there were no, zero, zip hills and started riding bikes in earnest as a 13-year old on an indoor track, not the road. So that may explain a few things about my not being a _natural_ descender. I've always felt best on the track, in particular, doing short TT events like the kilo (now reduced to 500 meter for the 60+ age group).


Interesting. You undoubtedly have skills that I will never approach. I started riding fixed-gear (on the road -- flatter routes only) about 12 years ago, and while it is great fun at times, it is a challenge. I have never been on a velodrome.

I grew up in Reno, Nevada, where there are mountains all around (it's where Greg Lemond lived when he began racing as a teenager). I always enjoyed going down hills fast, even when riding simple one-speed bikes as a small child. So maybe there was some very early brain wiring that still functions. I live in a less mountainous place now (Connecticut), but there are plenty of steep hills with lengths up to a mile or two.

This is a rather interesting topic. I wonder whether there are many mind-muscle skills that can be learned at a young age and be retained, but are much harder to acquire when older. I suppose the answer is obvious, but it wouldn't have occurred to me that this is one of those cases.


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## ukbloke (Sep 1, 2007)

JCavilia said:


> This is a rather interesting topic. I wonder whether there are many mind-muscle skills that can be learned at a young age and be retained, but are much harder to acquire when older. I suppose the answer is obvious, but it wouldn't have occurred to me that this is one of those cases.


After watching my daughter grow up so quickly, I think she can learn just about any mind-muscle skill more quickly than me! And she is completely fearless at speed on her bike.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

JCavilia said:


> This is a rather interesting topic. I wonder whether there are many mind-muscle skills that can be learned at a young age and be retained, but are much harder to acquire when older. I suppose the answer is obvious, but it wouldn't have occurred to me that this is one of those cases.


It may well be so, as ukbloke also pointed out. I think when you're older, "fear of possible consequences" gets in the way of doing things in a natural way. Once that block is there, it's extremely hard to get rid of. I remember the first time I was taken to the track and how much fun I had zipping up and down the banking like a swallow in flight. I'm convinced should I have been taken to that track for the first time as an adult, I would have taken one look at the banking, taken my bike and quietly gone home.  

Reno I only know from Greg Lemond's _Complete Book of Bicycling_, in which he devotes quite a number of pages to his time in that area. Rick's Bike Shop, Roland Della Santa, and such.


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## josephr (Jun 17, 2010)

here's a great video on countersteering...he shows it on motorcycles as well as a bicycle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc

basically, you're using the backside of your contact patch which helps the bike stay upright vs. pushing the front end on the contact patch which wants to push the wheel into the frame, like closing a jack-knife. Of course, its far more prominent on a motorcycle at high speed and more weight, but the effect is the same.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

JCavilia said:


> Interesting. You undoubtedly have skills that I will never approach. I started riding fixed-gear (on the road -- flatter routes only) about 12 years ago, and while it is great fun at times, it is a challenge. I have never been on a velodrome.
> 
> I grew up in Reno, Nevada, where there are mountains all around (it's where Greg Lemond lived when he began racing as a teenager). I always enjoyed going down hills fast, even when riding simple one-speed bikes as a small child. So maybe there was some very early brain wiring that still functions. I live in a less mountainous place now (Connecticut), but there are plenty of steep hills with lengths up to a mile or two.
> 
> This is a rather interesting topic. I wonder whether there are many mind-muscle skills that can be learned at a young age and be retained, but are much harder to acquire when older. I suppose the answer is obvious, *but it wouldn't have occurred to me that this is one of those cases*.


That was my thought as well when reading the exchange between you an WIM. But then again, although I wasnt' into riding a bike as 'sport' as a child, I did ride one pretty much every day in a hilly area so maybe I did pick something up back then. Now as an adult, not that I'm an expert at corners or anything but I'm pretty sure if I actually stopped to think about pushing the bars it would do much more harm than good. 

Muscle memory can be mysterious and strong. I started skating and playing hockey really young and I'm pretty good at skating backwards. A few years ago I volunteered to help someone coach and adults beginner program and when it came to showing them how to skate backwards I had no idea how explain it to them. I can do it great, but realized I had no clue why or how and once I tried skating and thinking of what I was doing at the same time it was a mess. Of couse the adults who didn't start skating as youngsters needed to think about every foot movement or they went no where. I suppose the same discrepancy between having learned young and not could be the case with cornering and explain the difference in opinion between you and wim.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

watch Fabian do it.


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## pisket (Dec 16, 2008)

Kerry Irons said:


> This is seriously contra-indicated for road bike descents. You're unweighting the front wheel and that is completely the wrong thing to do.


+1

And it's more so when mountain biking. My weight is consciously on the front wheel when I make turns on the dirt.

Ali


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## framesti (Jan 26, 2009)

how much do dififerent tires affect cornering speed?


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Grip*



framesti said:


> how much do dififerent tires affect cornering speed?


Harder rubber compounds wear longer but don't grip as well on corners, but unless you're leaning the bike over so much that you're pushing the limits of the rubber compound, it's kind of academic. Lower pressure would have a lot of effect as well, and a more supple casing will improve cornering.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I think it matters on a rainy day. I can corner almost as hard on my nicer road bike, with fancier tires when it's wet out, but on my commuter, with cheaper, harder tires, I have to be more conservative than on a dry day.


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