# Is steel making a comeback?



## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

I'm sure it will one day. It's nice to see that there is still an interest in the beauty of it.

Superb Bicycle


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

I hope not. I dont want to be cool. :blush2:

Actually I find myself grabbing my steel bike more often than not. It is not that nice but it sure rides great.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

Steel never entirely left. And the comeback started at least four or five years ago.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*not quite a comeback*



High Gear said:


> I'm sure it will one day. It's nice to see that there is still an interest in the beauty of it.
> 
> Superb Bicycle


Steel will never regain the market share it had 20 years ago. The market it just way too weight focused for that. However, I think it will retain a following for many years to come especially for high-quality artisan bikes. I actually hope it does not make a big comeback. I like being the oddball on the steel bike against the wall of mass produced CF bikes (and yes, I do own one CF bike)


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## terry b (Jan 29, 2004)

On average, no.

Among people with an interest in custom - it never went away. 

What we are seeing are a lot more custom builders compared to say, 10 years ago.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I don't know about that...

Most people around here are on a steel bike of some kind. And by most, I mean including everyone. Lots and lots and lots of surlys of various shapes and sizes.


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## xrayjay (Feb 21, 2010)

We have a group of urban riders in town that are all on single speed steel road bikes. It's pretty cool to see them. They are only a segment of our total population though.


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

DaveG said:


> Steel will never regain the market share it had 20 years ago. The market it just way too weight focused for that. However, I think it will retain a following for many years to come especially for high-quality artisan bikes. I actually hope it does not make a big comeback. I like being the oddball on the steel bike against the wall of mass produced CF bikes (and yes, I do own one CF bike)


Take it from a guy who has followed the road bicycle game since the early 1970's. The market has always been weight-focused, at least when it comes to the upper end. Practically every prospective buyer who entered a high-end store would ask, "Is it light? Is it stiff?" Then, if possible, the customer would hoist the thing up.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

S3 steel is pretty cool. Iron blends continue to be a kickass engineering material, and metallurgical processes get better and better.

The Rodriguez Outlaw

Sexy never left.


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## David Kirk (Mar 6, 2005)

When I first started working as a framebuilder in 1989 all the bikes we built were steel. In fact almost all the best bikes money could buy were steel.

A few years later we started working with titanium and I remember thinking that steel would die and go away. This was about 1991 or 1992 or so. We built the Ti bikes and folks loved them and I owned a few but in when going for a ride I most often found myself pulling the steel bike off the hook.

Next we started offering aluminum and this time I thought that both steel and Ti were toast - how can any other material compare with the cost/weight ratio of aluminum? And yet the same thing happened - I reached for the steel bike because I still preferred it over the Ti and Al.

Then came carbon - lather, rinse, repeat - and I grabbed the steel bike off the hook.

So when I started building on my own I offered only steel and I'll bet it's the only material I ever offer. I just like it best and the very good thing is that I'm not alone. I'm by no means in the majority and the market demand isn't what it would need to be for the Treks of the world to once again offer a true high-end steel bike but that's OK.

FWIW - I have nothing against the other materials out there. I think there are some kick ass bikes out there not made of steel and there are some I'd like to try............and I will be the last guy to say 'steel is real' - the materials are all real and all worthy of love from the right owner.

For me - the right material is steel. Steel is dead - long live steel.

dave


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

well, I know I have 3 steel, 1 aluminum, 1 aluminum with steel fork and 1 all carbon...my most recent purchase and build was steel (albeit a 15 year old frame)


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## GRAVELBIKE (Sep 16, 2011)

Don't call it a comeback!


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*maybe*



Mapei said:


> Take it from a guy who has followed the road bicycle game since the early 1970's. The market has always been weight-focused, at least when it comes to the upper end. Practically every prospective buyer who entered a high-end store would ask, "Is it light? Is it stiff?" Then, if possible, the customer would hoist the thing up.


You may be correct but in the "old days" people would talk about ride quality and handling and quality. Now people think that all's there is to a good bike is really low weight. Sorry for getting all Grant Petersen here but riding enjoyment is not measured in grams


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

I find the slender tubes of a steel frame to be far more attractive, graceful and elegant than the blocky stubby looking tubes of a carbon frame...and lugs are just beautiful to my eye. And a fillet brazed set of steel tubes is just amazing if well done (yeah Dave, that means you!)

My carbon bike FEELS faster than it really is due to the noise factor. They are LOUD....like riding a plastic drum. I took my latest restoration out for it's shakedown ride yesterday and was totally amazed by the ride and handling. By far the best I have ever ridden. At almost 60 years old, comfort becomes tantamount to weight and speed.


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## Don4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Interesting question.

A couple years ago, while shopping for my first new road bike since 1983, I rode a number of bikes, mostly of carbon fiber. The "standard" I was measuring against was a 1983 Trek 700 (Reynolds 531) that I had on loan from my father-in-law. It took me quite a few test rides before I found one that had the lively feel I enjoyed on that old Trek, and I ended up with an '11 Felt F3, a bike I enjoy very much.

Flash forward to this fall: I bought a 1983 Trek 560 off eBay -- a bike that I had loved when it was new for it's handling and responsiveness, but just couldn't afford as a poor college student.

It rides just like I remember it, and compares favorably to my Felt. Like Touch0Gray's 15 year old steel classic before me, I'm currently in the process of lovingly building up my 28 year old classic with modern equipment to ride and enjoy.

David Kirk's right. There's just something about steel that keeps you coming back.


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## SevensRacer (Dec 14, 2011)

Steel will make a mainstream comeback once the public realizes that steel bikes can be just as lightweight as a carbon fiber bike. The Rodriguez Outlaw, posted by AndrwSwitch, is just one example, weighing in at 14 lbs:

The Rodriguez Outlaw

(With a steel fork, this will most likely be my choice once my level reaches Cat 1-2)


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## dekindy (Jul 7, 2006)

High Gear said:


> I'm sure it will one day. It's nice to see that there is still an interest in the beauty of it.
> 
> Superb Bicycle


There website is nice but not very informative. Who are these guys?

What are the geometries of their bikes? Other than the seat tube and top tube they give no dimensions for their frames. 

Where does Columbus Chromor fall on the steel spectrum?


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## penn_rider (Jul 11, 2009)

foto said:


> I don't know about that...
> 
> Most people around here are on a steel bike of some kind. And by most, I mean including everyone. Lots and lots and lots of surlys of various shapes and sizes.


Nope, I am not on a steel bike....


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## rose.johnp (Jul 20, 2011)

I have a steal fixie - and just put some $$$ down to have a custom steal bike made next year... I like steal, however I have two full carbon whips as well. Pros/Cons to each material - too each his own.


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## Jesse D Smith (Jun 11, 2005)

High Gear said:


> I'm sure it will one day. It's nice to see that there is still an interest in the beauty of it.
> 
> Superb Bicycle


After our brief flirtation with exhaling, I believe inhaling is poised to make a comeback.


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## SantaCruz (Mar 22, 2002)

I have modern steel, CF and Ti road bikes. Also, 6 vintage steel roadies and one AL mtn bike. I ride em all and love them for different reasons. The modern steel is full custom and perfect for me. My next purchase will be custom Ti.

I hope the diversity continues and the smaller builders thrive. 
For me it is important to support our industry's American craftsmen.


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## frpax (Feb 13, 2010)

I doubt that you'll see steel frames in the Pro peloton ever again.

But, as mentioned, steel has never really "left". Custom builders have been using it all along, as well as some of the smaller mass frame makers (Soma comes to mind immediately). 

The hipsters are giving steel a bit of a revival, for sure.


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## Chris-X (Aug 4, 2011)

SevensRacer said:


> Steel will make a mainstream comeback once the public realizes that steel bikes can be just as lightweight as a carbon fiber bike. The Rodriguez Outlaw, posted by AndrwSwitch, is just one example, weighing in at 14 lbs:
> 
> The Rodriguez Outlaw
> 
> (With a steel fork, this will most likely be my choice once my level reaches Cat 1-2)


I know what you're saying but I really don't understand what the difference is between an 18lb bike and a 15lb bike other than the 3lbs.

It's just kind of silly.


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## PRB (Jun 15, 2002)

For some of us, steel never went away. I have not owned nor do I desire to own a road bike made of any other material (but I have ridden them). I'm sure the other materials are just fine but I've yet to own a steel bike I didn't like...so why change? 



Touch0Gray said:


> I find the slender tubes of a steel frame to be far more attractive, graceful and elegant than the blocky stubby looking tubes of a carbon frame...and lugs are just beautiful to my eye. And a fillet brazed set of steel tubes is just amazing if well done (yeah Dave, that means you!)


+11ty billion :thumbsup:



dekindy said:


> Where does Columbus Chromor fall on the steel spectrum?


Cromor is the bottom of the Columbus line. That doesn't necessarily make it bad, just not high-tech.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2012)

SevensRacer said:


> Steel will make a mainstream comeback once the public realizes that steel bikes can be just as lightweight as a carbon fiber bike. The Rodriguez Outlaw, posted by AndrwSwitch, is just one example, weighing in at 14 lbs:
> 
> The Rodriguez Outlaw
> 
> (With a steel fork, this will most likely be my choice once my level reaches Cat 1-2)


I tihnk a lot of people assume that the majority of the weight on a bike is in its frame when in reality, it's more like 20% of the weight on most modern bikes. Most people probably overestimate the difference in weight for good frames with the different respective materials. A buddy of mine (not currently a cyclist but considereing getting into it) was quite surpised at both the low overall weight, and small relative changes in weight between frames they had for sale when we were walking through a bike show w/ various frames for sale on the shelves. 

As for weight on my bike: drivetrain component make up the most, followed closely by wheelset (including tires), then the water bottles, _then_ the frame. The remainder is composed of things like the seat, handlebars, cable housing, etc.



> My carbon bike FEELS faster than it really is due to the noise factor. They are LOUD....like riding a plastic drum. I took my latest restoration out for it's shakedown ride yesterday and was totally amazed by the ride and handling. By far the best I have ever ridden. At almost 60 years old, comfort becomes tantamount to weight and speed.


I've owned bikes in steel, aluminum, and CF. My aluminum road bike (w/ carbon fork) was actually the loudest of the three and the harshest riding. My steel bike is the smoothest but it's not fair comparison as I have it configured as a commuter with larger 30mm tires.


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## Terex (Jan 3, 2005)

High Gear said:


> I'm sure it will one day. It's nice to see that there is still an interest in the beauty of it.
> 
> Superb Bicycle


No. It is not.


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## moschika (Feb 1, 2004)

didn't realize it went anywhere. all my bikes are steel. I used to have a Al mtb, but eventually sold it to buy a custom steel. as for weight, once I saw a sub-15lb Sycip steel bike, i know if i wanted something super low-weight, then i could still do it in steel.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm thinking of finding/building up a Bianchi like I had back in the 80's. I don't care if it's in pristine condition but rather just want to have one to ride every day for no reason. A few racer type friends of mine are all doing the same and building up some cool Colnago and Pinnerallo's.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

DaveG said:


> You may be correct but in the "old days" people would talk about ride quality and handling and quality. Now people think that all's there is to a good bike is really low weight. Sorry for getting all Grant Petersen here but riding enjoyment is not measured in grams


people talk a lot about handling, ride quality nowadays too. The difference is not that the riders or their criteria of what they want from a frame have changed, it's just that new materials came along. I bet you if carbon fiber was available 30 years ago with performance and price it is today, it would have as much of a market share then as it is now.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

No. However it does seem to be replacing Ti frames as the preferred high end alternative to carbon. But its a carbon world- _especially_ over $1500


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## Tonyc9075 (Jan 4, 2012)

I rediscovered riding my road bike after 20 years. I took my old Schwinn Superior built in 1976 with its CrMo frame and made it rode ready. This bike has always been comfortable and is great for long rides. 
Thinking I was 20 years behind the times I have been drooling over the latest CF eye candy, but from what I have been reading about steel bikes I have decided that I already have a great ride and there is very little room to improve what I have.
I like to ride a century in comfort and my steel bike does that.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

DaveG said:


> You may be correct but in the "old days" people would talk about ride quality and handling and quality. Now people think that all's there is to a good bike is really low weight. Sorry for getting all Grant Petersen here but riding enjoyment is not measured in grams


Actually it's all about low weight and stiffness nowdays. The problem is that twenty years ago you could build a frame that was too stiff out of aluminum. Now all the big manufacturers are intent on making their frames even stiffer than those old Cannondales.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

my 1997 waterford 1100 is a bit lighter than my 2007 Trek 5000 (all carbon) with the SAME wheels and comparable groupsets (campy Veloce). Don't get me wrong I have put 7000 miles on the Carbon in the past 3 years (and about 1/2 that on my other bikes) and I love it... but recently I realized that for me as a rider, the perceived speed and the real speed are NOT necessarily the same. Also, when I crashed my steel Bianchi last fall, I realized that if i had been on the carbon, it may well have been wall art! I got back on the Bianchi 2 days later and did the ride again...RIGHT that time!


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## Mapei (Feb 3, 2004)

trailrunner68 said:


> Actually it's all about low weight and stiffness nowdays. The problem is that twenty years ago you could build a frame that was too stiff out of aluminum. Now all the big manufacturers are intent on making their frames even stiffer than those old Cannondales.


How about the Specialized Roubaix? And the Time NXR Instinct?


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## cs1 (Sep 16, 2003)

Touch0Gray said:


> I find the slender tubes of a steel frame to be far more attractive, graceful and elegant than the blocky stubby looking tubes of a carbon frame...and lugs are just beautiful to my eye. And a fillet brazed set of steel tubes is just amazing if well done


Don't forget the quill stem.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Mapei said:


> How about the Specialized Roubaix? And the Time NXR Instinct?


Those represent a new direction of trying to sell non-race bikes to enthusiasts. I hope it works out because there is something ridiculous about 95% of cyclists, who do not race, buying bikes based on supposed race worthiness. But those riders could just as well ride steel. They could get made to measure steel for from many builders for less money than they are currently paying for stock carbon with few sizes that is made in Asia.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

cs1 said:


> Don't forget the quill stem.


you mean being able to MOVE your bars up or down is an advantage?....


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## atpjunkie (Mar 23, 2002)

*as many of the newcomers*

realize they will never be Cat 3, let alone a 2 or a 1
when they realize they ride because they enjoy riding
when how the bike feels under them becomes more important than shaving a few grams
when getting something custom tailored is superior to 3 sizes fit all

people will go back to steel

atp - owner of 5 steel bikes (road, CX -2, Commuter and track)


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## BlueMasi1 (Oct 9, 2002)

*Interesting History*

Check out Steelman's website. His history pretty much say it all.

Steelman Cycles History

BTW, there are plenty of steel frames available. My next purchase (this summer) is going to be a Bob Jackson -- a little over $800.00 US (shipping and two tone paint included).


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

How do you put a bicycle on your freakin pillows? Or is that your mother-in-laws bed?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

oops...


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

atpjunkie said:


> realize they will never be Cat 3, let alone a 2 or a 1
> when they realize they ride because they enjoy riding
> when how the bike feels under them becomes more important than shaving a few grams
> when getting something custom tailored is superior to 3 sizes fit all
> ...


Nicely put!


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## nelzbikes (Dec 27, 2011)

Let's see yesterday I rode the steel fixie for about 15 miles. Today the 92 paramount, my first REAL bicycle. Steel is real!


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

foto said:


> How do you put a bicycle on your freakin pillows? Or is that your mother-in-laws bed?


that bike was a born again virgin.....fresh restoration, tires and drivetrain had never even been on a trainer let alone the road


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## Scott in MN (Jan 6, 2012)

> Is steel making a comeback?


No. It will always be around but a comeback? No


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

Steel is probably making a comeback for multiple reasons and not least of which is the minimalism philosophy of the fixed gear riders. 

With a CrMo frame, a big beefy chain, one beefy cog, and a seriously beefy fixie wheelset, you have what amounts to a lifetime purchase for less than $1000. 

There's a lot of people getting sick of the grupos that cost as much as a bike, the maintaince, having the be careful with the CF frames. They simply want to ride without thinking about their gear or their wallets and that's where the steel market comes in.


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## brewster (Jun 15, 2004)

Yes, that is right. Look at the market explosion of Surly and Salsa type bikes. For the most part they make utilitarian heavy steel bikes packaged in unique ways for a reasonable price. And people are buying them.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Making a come back? I never went away.


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## Rugby11 (Sep 25, 2003)

Another vote for True temper S3 steel...my ionic is in the 16 lb range for a 58 cm


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## Hiro11 (Dec 18, 2010)

I love both my carbon and my steel bike, surely there's room for both.


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## cycocross (Dec 11, 2011)

*real steel. Please help*

I'm starting a collection for a Serotta Colorado. With your donation I hope to bring this bike home. Any amount will help as I am only $6000 short of my goal. Thank you.


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## Elpimpo (Jan 16, 2012)

DaveG said:


> I like being the oddball on the steel bike against the wall of mass produced CF bikes (and yes, I do own one CF bike)


Same Boat.


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## TomH (Oct 6, 2008)

Going from steel, to alu, to carbon, I didnt notice a fraction of the difference vs going from 23 to 25c tires. I want to like steel bikes, but its hard to justify a high end steel frame when the difference just doesnt seem that big. For me, and I think a lot of bike consumers, the low cost of alu frames is a big draw. When comfort becomes an issue, a tire change seems to fix most of those problems. 

Then theres the consumer group who wants the latest tech, and carbon really flashes in the tech department. I kinda think steel never left, but its quietly selling to a small group.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

TomH said:


> Then theres the consumer group who wants the latest tech, and carbon really flashes in the tech department. I kinda think steel never left, but its quietly selling to a small group.


I think the small group is a LOT bigger than you might think...particularly if you look world wide.


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## Kontact (Apr 1, 2011)

I think the lugged Raleigh steel bikes being offered right now are interesting evidence of a trend. We haven't seen Asian made lugged steel bikes by a big company for nearly 20 years.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

All my bikes are steel.
Pegoretti Big Leg Emma
Eddy Merckx MXL
Gunnar Crosshairs
Argonaut custom 
GT US team bike (fillet brazed True Temper)
Eddy Merckx SLX track

The Pegoretti has a carbon fork. 

I've done Ti and Aluminum and I always come back to steel. I'm bigbill, I'm not obsessed with bike weight, it's about the ride and how a bike feels under me.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

There is some good in the thinking that led to this thread, but also more than a whiff of dogmatic proselytizing. If you like it, that's great I will support your right to engage in it to the death. It's when you get all dogmatic and try to push your religion on me that I will tell you to shove it.
Steel? I'm sure there are people who feel the same about bamboo or hardwood frames.
The strengths and shortcomings of each frame material are well known. Keep moving, folks, nothing to see here.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

Kontact said:


> I think the lugged Raleigh steel bikes being offered right now are interesting evidence of a trend. We haven't seen Asian made lugged steel bikes by a big company for nearly 20 years.


Raleigh sent skilled framebuilders to China to teach factor workers how to silver braze lugged framesets. There are many framebuilders in the US that can build those frames, but not at the numbers needed by Raleigh. The frame is a killer deal, around $1600 for a silver brazed 853 frame/fork. It's a full 853 tubeset, not just the main triangle.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

bigbill said:


> Raleigh sent skilled framebuilders to China to teach factor workers how to silver braze lugged framesets. There are many framebuilders in the US that can build those frames, but not at the numbers needed by Raleigh. The frame is a killer deal, around $1600 for a silver brazed 853 frame/fork. It's a full 853 tubeset, not just the main triangle.


Really? If that story is true, I would hate to be the guy they sent there. "Here, this is how you do my job so that I won't have one".

I am not convinced that you cannot mass produce high quality bike frames at a decent price point in the US. It is the competition with Asia that makes it less than optimally profitable, not the production capacity.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

bigbill said:


> Raleigh sent skilled framebuilders to China to teach factor workers how to silver braze lugged framesets. There are many framebuilders in the US that can build those frames, but not at the numbers needed by Raleigh.


Hmmm... with approximately 9% of the US workforce being unemployed, I'm relatively sure that this is not a capacity issue. It's much more likely that the cost of selling US-built frames would exceed what Raleigh believes they consumers are willing to pay.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

For example, it can be done, it is just going downhill fast, sorry no pun intended.

Sapa to Cease Contract Bicycle Manufacturing Operations | The Straight Dirt | MountainBike.com


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

I also remember this other little company in connecticut. What was it called again? I think it started with a C...


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## 74extiger (Jan 29, 2011)

In Europe folks buy custom frames. It is more of a cottage industry than in North America, where factories rule the day.

Because of some odd body measurements, in '97 I flew to England and had the Charles Roberts shop in South London build me a full-Campy bike out of lugless, Columbus EL OS tubing. 

The lugless aspect give you a soft ride, without sacrificing power and acceleration. A few days ago I looked at the Columbus website, and the tubing currently offered isn't much stiffer or lighter than it was 15 years ago. My frame is quite comfortable to ride, and yet it climbs like a Jackrabbit.

Wish I had a digital camera to post photos.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

74extiger said:


> _In Europe folks buy custom frames. It is more of a cottage industry than in North America_, where factories rule the day.
> 
> .


I know, right? 

This is the very reason why, 2012 NAHBS | North American Handmade Bicycle Show | #NAHBS | Test aka, "NAHBS" is such a flop and failure ici en l' Amerique du Nord.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

OldEndicottHiway said:


> I know, right?
> 
> This is the very reason why, 2012 NAHBS | North American Handmade Bicycle Show | #NAHBS | Test aka, "NAHBS" is such a flop and failure ici en l' Amerique du Nord.


Isn't this what the thread is about. The "resurgence" of steel? NABHS is part of a movement to get consumers interested in smaller local builders who most often use steel (ti and aluminum as well). While the number of local builders is growing, they still make a fairly insignificant part of the entire market (probably way less than 1% of frames sold).

Is it working?

For the same price, I'd take a custom made steel frame over an "off the shelf" carbon fiber frame any day. Based on sales figures, I'm in the minority.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

laffeaux said:


> Isn't this what the thread is about. The "resurgence" of steel? NABHS is part of a movement to get consumers interested in smaller local builders who most often use steel (ti and aluminum as well). While the number of local builders is growing, they still make a fairly insignificant part of the entire market (probably way less than 1% of frames sold).
> 
> Is it working?
> 
> For the same price, I'd take a custom made steel frame over an "off the shelf" carbon fiber frame any day. Based on sales figures, I'm in the minority.



In answer to your points, 

yes.


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## 74extiger (Jan 29, 2011)

Here is what my frame maker in England told me about imports into North America. In the mid-70s, a big English bike company was successfully sued in court here. For a sum in the millions. 

A young boy riding one of their bikes in the Midwest was out at night and was killed by a car. His bike did not have a light. The court sided with the plaintiff finding that it was the company's fault for not putting a light on the bicycle and not warning the new owner that if there was no light, he was in danger. And so he ought to put one on himself.

I believed the company was Raleigh. In any case, that news made it into European cycling literature and many makers, small and large, simply refused to advertise in American magazines. I was working for an airline and traveled with my bike to Europe several times a year. It was bizarre to see the gap in preference, equipment and knowledge base between the two continents. Litigation makes many friends, and we are famous for it.

writing from California


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

74extiger said:


> Here is what my frame maker in England told me about imports into North America. In the mid-70s, a big English bike company was successfully sued in court here. For a sum in the millions.
> 
> A young boy riding one of their bikes in the Midwest was out at night and was killed by a car. His bike did not have a light. The court sided with the plaintiff finding that it was the company's fault for not putting a light on the bicycle and not warning the new owner that if there was no light, he was in danger. And so he ought to put one on himself.
> 
> ...


sounds, tastes and smells like internet hogwash from the Tea Party echo chamber. if it was all over European cycling literature, why don't you do us all a favor take a minute to dig it up before posting stuff like like this?
Jury awards don't crack the top ten drags on our economy, probably even the top 1 percent of the probs measured in dollars.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

That would explain why there are no 70s era Peugots Raleighs Motobecanse etc here in the states.


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## cycocross (Dec 11, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> sounds, tastes and smells like internet hogwash from the Tea Party echo chamber. if it was all over European cycling literature, why don't you do us all a favor take a minute to dig it up before posting stuff like like this?
> Jury awards don't crack the top ten drags on our economy, probably even the top 1 percent of the probs measured in dollars.


YA why didn't you find, scan and upload a 40 year old magazine from another continent?!! 

This actually happened I remember it. Sorry I don't have the EEG scans of my brains to prove it. The 70's were the beginning of the end for ridiculous lawsuits. Burglars suing homeowners for being injured "on the job" Manufacturers being sued for not warning people about the dangers of making toast in the bathtub. Why do you think there are those "ridiculous" warnings are on products? Why do you think LBS have waivers stating the dangers of bike riding? Yep you got it it's the tea party's fault.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

*Someone correct me if I'm wrong...*



dekindy said:


> ...Where does Columbus Chromor fall on the steel spectrum?


Seem to remember Chromor was the budget steel tubing offered by Columbus back in the late 80s. Their good stuff was SL, replaced by SLX and then for a time TSX. Now they have thinner stuff yet, Nivacrome? Or something like that. They've got it in slightly larger diameters, since it's thinner. :shocked:


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## Cbookman (Jul 2, 2009)

trailrunner68 said:


> Actually it's all about low weight and stiffness nowdays. The problem is that twenty years ago you could build a frame that was too stiff out of aluminum. Now all the big manufacturers are intent on making their frames even stiffer than those old Cannondales.


What about the CAAD10? The design is all about stiffness in the right plane with highly improved ride quality, and it's meant to race, not for the same group as the NXR, Roubaix, or the Synapse for that matter.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

cycocross said:


> YA why didn't you find, scan and upload a 40 year old magazine from another continent?!!
> 
> This actually happened I remember it. Sorry I don't have the EEG scans of my brains to prove it. The 70's were the beginning of the end for ridiculous lawsuits. Burglars suing homeowners for being injured "on the job" Manufacturers being sued for not warning people about the dangers of making toast in the bathtub. Why do you think there are those "ridiculous" warnings are on products? Why do you think LBS have waivers stating the dangers of bike riding? Yep you got it it's the tea party's fault.


Riiiiightt. So this thing happened that turned the industry upside down, changing it permanently, was mentioned once in the media just before the digital age began, and never again since then. Good thing at least one person alive remembers it so that the story can be passed down.
The five cent sticks on my bike or my stepladder and the 7 cents of consumer regulation that went into each of them and covers and corrected more serious issues of which the sticker is only the tip of the iceberg are really not serious impediments to industry. Yeah, some of these well-publicized cases of bizarre lawsuits are ridiculous, but those are the ones that get attention, not the other 9999 out of 10,000 that led to fixes to actual problems.
I too long for the days when you were 3 or 4 times more likely to die in a specific kind of car crash, and no one tracked meat for recalls when deadly bacteria are found.
Not the tea party's fault, just another distraction, another shiny bauble for their puppetmasters to hang in front of them to distract them from their wallet being lifted.


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## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

74extiger said:


> Here is what my frame maker in England told me about imports into North America. In the mid-70s, a big English bike company was successfully sued in court here. For a sum in the millions.
> 
> A young boy riding one of their bikes in the Midwest was out at night and was killed by a car. His bike did not have a light. The court sided with the plaintiff finding that it was the company's fault for not putting a light on the bicycle and not warning the new owner that if there was no light, he was in danger. And so he ought to put one on himself.
> 
> ...


No need to dig up old magazines. All bikes would be equipped with lights from the factory by now if your story and its European implications were remotely true.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

True or not, bikes do come with warning labels about using a light.

My favorite is the department store mountain bikes with warning labels about riding off-road.


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## Coolhand (Jul 28, 2002)

foto said:


> I also remember this other little company in connecticut. What was it called again? I think it started with a C...


Thank the ill conceived motorcycle/ATV effort for that- it killed the company.


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## Faapaa (May 19, 2008)

It's only american products that comes with warnings. Here in europe we are responsible for our own actions, a producer is not responsible for what ever a consumer may have done. But in some cases a producer is responsible for that it's product is suited for it's intended use, as in CE marking.


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## cycocross (Dec 11, 2011)

Mike Overly said:


> No need to dig up old magazines. All bikes would be equipped with lights from the factory by now if your story and its European implications were remotely true.


No, just because one ridiculous lawsuit prevailed doesn't make it the law of the land. Mcdonald's still serves hot coffee doesn't it. The manufactures didn't stop *advertising *in the US because the courts told them to put lights on their bikes. And why do bike stores have buyers sign a waiver concerning the dangers of riding? try reading the lines more and in between less.

"if your story and its European implications were remotely true" my story?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

cycocross said:


> No, just because one ridiculous lawsuit prevailed doesn't make it the law of the land. Mcdonald's still serves hot coffee doesn't it. The manufactures didn't stop *advertising *in the US because the courts told them to put lights on their bikes. And why do bike stores have buyers sign a waiver concerning the dangers of riding? try reading the lines more and in between less.
> 
> "if your story and its European implications were remotely true" my story?


I don't recall signing any waivers, except before a race.


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## cycocross (Dec 11, 2011)

thumper8888 said:


> Riiiiightt. So this thing happened that turned the industry upside down, changing it permanently, was mentioned once in the media just before the digital age began,


They stopped advertising in America, not selling, ADVERTISING. It must be so hard to actually read the whole post AND comprehend it.


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## Mike Overly (Sep 28, 2005)

OK, Mr. "Read the lines." I was quoting 74extiger, not you. And I never said anything about a lawsuit causing bikes to be sold with lights. I did say that if the implications referenced in 74extiger's original post were true we would all be riding bikes with factory lights.

FWIW, I was around in the 70s, and the American bike mags were full of Raleigh & Peugeot, etc. advertising.


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## 74extiger (Jan 29, 2011)

Thumper, the comment from my bicycle maker in South Croydon, London, England was in 1996. No Internet then. He built my bike and agreed to ship it to America because I gave him pre-paid and filled out freight documents from FedEx, my employer. But he still won't advertise here. 

I flew to Europe a few times a year and was surprised how cyclists there would just scoop you up and offer you coffee and cakes. I only heard negative remarks about legal hostility from my frame builder. But, having some knowledge of international trade, I feel secure in saying people are put off by us not being Metric (they think we have rocks in our heads, and I tend to agree) and by hostile legal action.

I'm a woodworker, and ALL of my machine tools are European. Hell, they don't make machinery in America any longer. An up-and-coming brand is the German powertool maker Festool. A machine they released over there called the Domino took three additional years to export here because the UL agency which protects against things like sparks held up mandatory certification over a plug on a cord. Meanwhile, the same tool, was accepted by the Canadian Safety Organization (I forget the acronym) immediately and sales north of the border were meteoric. Free of 'sparks' and other nasty things.

Just for chuckles sometime, ship a package via FedEx or UPS to Canada and one to Europe. See which one gets there quicker and with less administrative complexity. It will be Europe. All because of nasty, protectionist customs and duty regulations with our closest neighbor and ally. Many of which (most?) instituted by lobby groups on our side of the border.
Or send a parcel to Canada via US Mail, and then watch the paint dry on the wall to pass the time. We aren't alone in this behavior, but we can be perceived as unfriendly.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

74extiger said:


> Thumper, the comment from my bicycle maker in South Croydon, London, England was in 1996. No Internet then. He built my bike and agreed to ship it to America because I gave him pre-paid and filled out freight documents from FedEx, my employer. But he still won't advertise here.
> 
> I flew to Europe a few times a year and was surprised how cyclists there would just scoop you up and offer you coffee and cakes. I only heard negative remarks about legal hostility from my frame builder. But, having some knowledge of international trade, I feel secure in saying* people are put off by us not being Metric* (they think we have rocks in our heads, and I tend to agree) and by hostile legal action.
> 
> ...


Not that much Standard left in the US besides speed limits and weather reports.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Cbookman said:


> What about the CAAD10? The design is all about stiffness in the right plane with highly improved ride quality, and it's meant to race, not for the same group as the NXR, Roubaix, or the Synapse for that matter.


You mean the frame that Cannondale decided to scrap their old AL designs and start from a blank piece of paper? That frame? Sounds like an admission that their old frames rode like crap.


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## 74extiger (Jan 29, 2011)

Here's another oddity about unfair trade practices which effect imports. In the '80s & '90s when everyone had a VHS recorder (or Beta Max) you would find a deep red plastic window on the top of the remote. Most of these were made in Japan. 

I always wondered what that red window was for. It seemed it must be related to Infra Red. But, to do what? I was transfered by my company to Tokyo Airport for 4 months and I saw something unusual. They had the same recording equipment as us (they made it, afterall) but I saw them in the morning, over their cup of coffee, take that remote from the VCR and scan bar codes next to the TV programming schedule in the daily newspapers. TV Schedule/Bar Code/Remote Scanner? 

Does that set off any alarm bells in your head. They could program the VCR to record channel 7 for 1 hour next Thursday night in 10 seconds. We could not. I also saw HDTV all over the place, but that is another story.

So, I dug further into the matter at a large electronic discount center in Akihabara Tokyo, famous with computer hacks, Ham Radio guys, and other tech geeks. An English-speaking salesman told me that all VCRs were built with circuitry capable of bar code reading. But that exports to the US (only the US) had that feature blocked.

Why was it blocked. One man, Walter Annenburg, billionaire political backer got rich publishing TV Guide. Bar codes published in newspaper with TV schedules would undermine his business. He paid politicians to prevent import of the technology. So this one man, with one vested interest, sidetracked consumer technology used by 300 million people. No bar codes in the news. A jumper connection inside every VCR destined for America was disabled. 

I am not commenting on Annenburg's political affiliation. It doesn't matter. Fat cats of all parties don't play fair. And we, the consumer and voter, are none the wiser. 

So, go put a barcode on your steel bike and scan it with your VCR clicker. By the way, the IR window in VCR remotes over here started disappearing in about 2000. In Japan, folks use it almost as a morning ritual to orchestrate their evening TV entertainment.

Rant, rant. And what about Cuban Cigars? More ranting.


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## mobilesleepy (Nov 11, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> You mean the frame that Cannondale decided to scrap their old AL designs and start from a blank piece of paper? That frame? Sounds like an admission that their old frames rode like crap.




My CAAD9 rode smoother, felt stiffer, and was lighter than my magical RB-1. 
I rue the day it was stolen.
It's silly to assign mythic, magical qualities to ordinary materials.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

mobilesleepy said:


> My CAAD9 rode smoother, felt stiffer, and was lighter than my magical RB-1.
> I rue the day it was stolen.
> It's silly to assign mythic, magical qualities to ordinary materials.


The rb-1 is a little (a lot) overrated imo. People fall all over themselves for those frames, they are totally fine but no better than any other high end 80s bike.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

74extiger said:


> Thumper, the comment from my bicycle maker in South Croydon, London, England was in 1996. No Internet then. He built my bike and agreed to ship it to America because I gave him pre-paid and filled out freight documents from FedEx, my employer. But he still won't advertise here.
> 
> I flew to Europe a few times a year and was surprised how cyclists there would just scoop you up and offer you coffee and cakes. I only heard negative remarks about legal hostility from my frame builder. But, having some knowledge of international trade, I feel secure in saying people are put off by us not being Metric (they think we have rocks in our heads, and I tend to agree) and by hostile legal action.
> 
> ...


I'll buy most of that. I'm certainly not in the group that thinks France is a bad word. "European Socialism" as they call it mainly looks pretty good from where I sit.


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## r0dman (Feb 17, 2008)

bigbill said:


> Raleigh sent skilled framebuilders to China to teach factor workers how to silver braze lugged framesets. There are many framebuilders in the US that can build those frames, but not at the numbers needed by Raleigh. The frame is a killer deal, around $1600 for a silver brazed 853 frame/fork. It's a full 853 tubeset, not just the main triangle.


Hey bigbill, what frame are you referring to?

Anyone know where the Roper/Furley frames are made? I tend to research everything to the nth degree , it'd be great to find out which company are making these frames for Raleigh..


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## davidka (Dec 12, 2001)

Faapaa said:


> It's only american products that comes with warnings. Here in europe we are responsible for our own actions, a producer is not responsible for what ever a consumer may have done. But in some cases a producer is responsible for that it's product is suited for it's intended use, as in CE marking.


European countries have just as many bicycle regulations as the US. In Germany if you ride at night, generator powered lights are compulsory, no battery powered lights. 



cycocross said:


> They stopped advertising in America, not selling, ADVERTISING. It must be so hard to actually read the whole post AND comprehend it.


That I find even harder to believe than the lawsuit story. What business would go to the trouble to manufacture, ship and distribute products while voluntarily forfeiting the advantage of marketing?


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

atpjunkie said:


> realize they will never be Cat 3, let alone a 2 or a 1
> when they realize they ride because they enjoy riding
> when how the bike feels under them becomes more important than shaving a few grams
> when getting something custom tailored is superior to 3 sizes fit all
> ...


That's the equivalent of saying;

"When people realize that they will never be Formula 1, Indy Car, NASCAR racers, they will stop buying Porsches, Lotuses and Corvettes blah, blah, blah... people will go back to Hondas and Hyundais."


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## fabiocanada (May 18, 2012)

Steel always will for me.


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## horness (May 18, 2012)

Eh, steel.


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## AndyMc2006 (Oct 27, 2006)

I rode my steel landshark for 12 yrs, after I had it ten years I bought a CF Scott CR1, I kept it 6 months and sold and went back to the Landshark. I now have a Moots Ti and I love it but it I do sometimes wonder if I would have been better off with a custom stainless steel IF. I am big, 6ft 4 and 255lbs, the Ti feels very smooth, and handles incredibly well and it feels light and durable. But I still wonder if some of the "snap" of steel is missing"...


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## Pacer1 (May 21, 2012)

*Surly*



foto said:


> I don't know about that...
> 
> Most people around here are on a steel bike of some kind. And by most, I mean including everyone. Lots and lots and lots of surlys of various shapes and sizes.


I ride a Surly Pacer and it's a great bike. Been a the Treks and that sort but for my money steel is the way to go.


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## High Gear (Mar 9, 2002)

cycocross said:


> I'm starting a collection for a Serotta Colorado. With your donation I hope to bring this bike home. Any amount will help as I am only $6000 short of my goal. Thank you.


Too funny. I had a co worker some 13-14 years back that bought one. I had a Trek 5200 at the time. I lusted for his bike but went for the light Calfee Tetra Pro for my next bike. After that, I realized I should have gone with my heart and gotten steel. I was let down every time in my chase for the newest and lightest bike. I now have a lifetime bike in my De Rosa Primato. This classic will never get old in my eyes, unlike my old carbon bikes that are so way obsolete at this point. 

My next bike.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Holy thread dredge---but since it is back, I thought I'd comment...

I ride by myself (on steel) and really have no idea what other folks ride (on average)--other than the occasional rider I see on my lonely country roads.

Last weekend though, the Gran Fondo New York route (110 mi) went within a couple of blocks of my house, so my SO and I walked up to watch part of the group go by.

So imagine that these guys are the semi-serious crowd (we missed the rabbits) and the ones we watched go through the corner and up the little hill bikes were a cross section of what serious cyclists are riding. And it was a pretty mixed bunch with everybody from fit looking dudes and dudettes, weekend warriors flogging themselves, tri-guys, a few Audax style touring setups and even one guy on a Bike Friday that I thought was pretty heroic.

Overwhelmingly, people were on carbon bikes--all the usual suspects, although fewer Treks than I would have expected. There were a few on aluminum, a few folks still on their Merlins & Lightspeed titaniums and only the tiniest number on classic steel bikes--thin tubed light line--a few vintage like a couple of Colnagos, one guy on a Bottechia. 

So if steel is making a comeback, it hasn't hit the Gran Fondo crowd unless all the rabbits were on steel, or they were bringing up the rear of the 5000+ riders participating.


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## rodcad (Nov 20, 2008)

*steel*

steel aficiandos more than likely may not be the ones riding with the masses. I see lots of steel in CO.


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## Pacer1 (May 21, 2012)

The ride of a steel bike is so forgiving it makes sitting in the saddle a joy. As one who is now on the other side of 50 I just can't handle the harsh ride of aluminum or afford the cost of a carbon fiber.


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## jpatkinson (Jun 10, 2007)

I have two bikes, they are both new, and I specifically chose steel: I love the ride feel, the aesthetic, and I don't care about the extra couple pounds. There is something about a plastic frame that turns me off. I am probably an idiot for spending over $3500 on a 20# road bike, but I just don't care.


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## Matt1986 (Mar 19, 2010)

With all this pre-occupation with weight there's no greater feeling than being first to crest your local ride's longest, toughest hill atop the only steel 'clunker' in the group, armed only with a 39x21 climbing gear. I have several bikes, but it's only the classic steel ones that really allow me to romanticise cycling.


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## wesb321 (Oct 1, 2011)

So whats exactly wrong with the aluminum racing bicycles? I understand the steel vs. carbon debates, the overall outlook is that aluminum is by far the worst of the 3?


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

wesb321 said:


> So whats exactly wrong with the aluminum racing bicycles? I understand the steel vs. carbon debates, the overall outlook is that aluminum is by far the worst of the 3?


nothing. At least I cannot tell the difference in my body after 100 miles on a steel frame or a "harsh, teeth rattling, unforgiven, uncomplient" aluminium frame. 
Maybe I have a more insensitive ass than others.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

wesb321 said:


> So whats exactly wrong with the aluminum racing bicycles? I understand the steel vs. carbon debates, the overall outlook is that aluminum is by far the worst of the 3?


Aluminum makes a great race bike. Light, cheap, and strong. Choose 3.


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## tallrider721 (Dec 22, 2010)

Light weight has become such a heavily emphasized characteristic of bicycles to the point of diminishing returns. I have to tread gently, but firmly, with some of my clients as regards the weight issue, on both frames and other component decisions (usually wheels). 

It is my opinion that we need to think in terms of "sensible weight" for either a frame or any component, based on the rider size, type of riding, etc. There are often serious compromises in longevity and function, all for the sake of reducing weight. 

I know I can build a 14lb bike that will be reliable for a 180lb rider who may race the bike. However, the cost will be a lot higher than a 16.5lb target for the bikes total weight. Using relatively inexpensive Chinese parts to achieve that 14lb target would likely (though not certainly) result in total package that is not as reliable or safe. 

That being said, steel has been around for a very long time. We understand it's properties well. It can provide amazing ride quality and durability under race conditions for a long time. It is a bit heavier, but with today's modern componentry and wheels I can build up a very, very high performance steel bike that weighs in at 17lbs, depending on the rider size and how much they want to spend. 

I was racing my 1994 Mondonico as recently as 3 years ago. Love that bike. 

Mark


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## Defy (Apr 22, 2012)

I suppose steel has made advances too. But I'm 2-3 mph faster with my carbon bike vs. my old steel bike. And I'm more comfortable...and it looks nicer.

One thing about technology, you can't fool advancement. Some day, carbon bikes will be archaic too but right now it sits on top as the highest level of frame material today.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Defy said:


> I suppose steel has made advances too. But I'm 2-3 mph faster with my carbon bike vs. my old steel bike. And I'm more comfortable...and it looks nicer.
> 
> *One thing about technology, you can't fool advancement.* Some day, carbon bikes will be archaic too but right now it sits on top as the highest level of frame material today.


Interesting. Do you have a source to back up this assertion?


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

wesb321 said:


> So whats exactly wrong with the aluminum racing bicycles? I understand the steel vs. carbon debates, the overall outlook is that aluminum is by far the worst of the 3?


Aluminum got a bad rep because of Cannondale. For the longest time Cannondale kept increasing the diameter of their frames' downtubes until they were large enough to divert The Mighty Mississip. Some people did not like the way they rode, but instead of blaming Cannondale's design, they blamed what the frames were made of.

Flash foward ten years and Cannondale's current aluminum frames ride nicely. The nature of aluminum did not change in that time, only how it was used.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Defy said:


> I suppose steel has made advances too. But I'm 2-3 mph faster with my carbon bike vs. my old steel bike.


2 - 3 mph. LOL.

Does it have a motor?


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

trailrunner68 said:


> 2 - 3 mph. LOL.
> 
> Does it have a motor?


This is his steel bike.


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## jpatkinson (Jun 10, 2007)

Defy said:


> I suppose steel has made advances too. But I'm 2-3 mph faster with my carbon bike vs. my old steel bike. And I'm more comfortable...and it looks nicer.


Then I am really glad you bought yourself a carbon-framed bicycle! 

I just bought myself a steel-framed road bike (the fourth in a row). I love the (relatively) traditional look, I love the ride quality, and I don't care if I am three MPH slower than if I had jumped on the carbon band-wagon (I doubt that one, BTW).


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

foto said:


> This is his steel bike...


That would not account for 2-3 mph. He must have been rolling on this:


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## Defy (Apr 22, 2012)

Reality check folks. 

My old steel bike was a '97 Lemond Zurich with built up with all 105 components. Not that old crappy blue bike with the friction shifters. 

Carbon bandwagon? Lol! Just because I'm getting old doesn't mean I have to go retro. The ride quality of my Defy Advanced is way better than the Lemond..I can't think of one attribute that the Lemond has over the Giant. 

When I used to get up to speed and push myself on the Lemond I'd keep a constant pace btw 24-25max. On my new bike that for a carbon is considered 'old' since its a 2010 model year, I hit 25 then accelerated over 27mph and held that for a good 1/2 mile. The person most surprised was me...top speed 35.9 vs 32.

Just saying... Steel is not back, if it was all the major manufacturers would not have moved on.


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## Pacer1 (May 21, 2012)

Have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. While cf works well for younger riders and that very small percent of older riders who still enjoy the more aggressive riding position and their bodies are not broken down there is an ever growing group of older riders such as I who just can't ride that way anymore. We still love to ride and push ourselves but the body can only handle so much before injury and as you know if you have an injury you can't ride. That's where the steel comes in. Great ride, comfortable riding position and it allows us to put down some great rides.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

It's just a riding position.

The majors are all making carbon bikes to serve riders who want a more upright position and the option of bigger tires.

I love my steel bikes, but I also love one of my aluminum bikes and like the other two. I'm sure as long as I don't buy a carbon bike for a discipline I don't like or in the wrong size or style for me, I'll love that as well, when I get to it.


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## Defy (Apr 22, 2012)

foto said:


> Interesting. Do you have a source to back up this assertion?


That carbon fiber is the current state of the art? It's what's being used on formula one cars vs steel. It's what manufacturers claim as state of the art and is on their top level bikes.

Lower end bikes are made in aluminum...and steel has been pretty much disappeared.

Nothing personal, I dont have a love affair w carbon like how some folks here talk about steel...it's just another material on a stupid bike. If it works for you great! Enjoy and ride..after all that's what bikes are meant for. I know what's better for me and that works for me too. :thumbsup:


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## Pacer1 (May 21, 2012)

That's the great part of cycling, there is something for everyone. Think how boring it would be of there was only one frame out there, it would take all the fun out of the sport for us. I love my steel, the ride is great and I can stay in the saddle much longer and that's all that matters. Hey at 52 with bad knees and neck I can't ask for anything more.


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## AndyMc2006 (Oct 27, 2006)

*Its TI for me*



foto said:


> I don't know about that...
> 
> Most people around here are on a steel bike of some kind. And by most, I mean including everyone. Lots and lots and lots of surlys of various shapes and sizes.


I live in Tucson and I see tons of CF bikes, I recently bought a Moots Vamoots CR and now that I have worked out the fit kinks I love it. I am 6ft 4" and weigh about 250lbs, as much as I love the looks of some carbon bikes I am not willing to risk how it will hold up after 10, 15, 20 years. I dont have that concern with TI nor did I have it with my Steel Landshark that I rode for 12 years.
If money were not an issue I would have one of each material but is an issue so its smooth riding Ti for me.


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## Defy (Apr 22, 2012)

Pacer1 said:


> Have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. While cf works well for younger riders and that very small percent of older riders who still enjoy the more aggressive riding position and their bodies are not broken down there is an ever growing group of older riders such as I who just can't ride that way anymore. We still love to ride and push ourselves but the body can only handle so much before injury and as you know if you have an injury you can't ride. That's where the steel comes in. Great ride, comfortable riding position and it allows us to put down some great rides.


I see what you mean, but I'm not a younger rider..not by any means and my Defy Advanced has a much more upright position and is much more comfortable than my Zurich was. I feel much fresher after rides now than before. 

You have no idea how much I wanted to get the Giant TCR. That's bike accelerated so fast, I still wish my old body can support that riding position. But my lower back spoke to me after a 20 min. test ride where I felt like I was flying and was riding faster than I ever did. "better go w the Defy adv 2 son. You ain't no spring chicken". 

The main drawback with carbon bikes as far as I'm concerned is cost. And the fact that you can't repair it if it breaks...that's another wtf. Spend $2k+ and one wrong spill and it's $$$ out the window. They need to offer crash warranty...at least I got it on my Mavic wheels.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Defy said:


> Reality check folks.
> 
> My old steel bike was a '97 Lemond Zurich with built up with all 105 components. Not that old crappy blue bike with the friction shifters.
> 
> ...


Hmm...yes. Nothing says "state of the art" like a CF road bike with aero bars and molded plastic platform pedals.


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## Pacer1 (May 21, 2012)

It's all good right. Whatever it takes to get the old bones up and off the couch. I will tell you this while at the lbs I secretly drool over the Defy, very nice bikes. Maybe once I get the knee replace I'll be able to try riding one.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Defy said:


> And the fact that you can't repair it if it breaks...that's another wtf. Spend $2k+ and one wrong spill and it's $$$ out the window. They need to offer crash warranty...at least I got it on my Mavic wheels.


My teammate just got his repaired frame back. Someone took him out and he put a pretty nasty crack through the top tube, near the seat tube. No idea what the economics of the repair are, but there are actually quite a few services that do it.


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Defy said:


> The main drawback with carbon bikes as far as I'm concerned is cost.


Cost is not a problem with carbon. Carbon frames are dirt cheap to make. If you are paying more than a few hundred for a carbon frame then you are paying for the brand name. You are not paying for the material. You are not paying for the labor. You are paying for twenty year old Chinese girls to put carbon fabric on a form, a job that requires no more skill than making hamburgers at McDonald's. The big manufacturers have gone to carbon because their marketing BS has convinced people that carbon is a wonder product that deserves a high price. Combine that with popping frames out of a mold for $200 (in volume) and you have a business model that would shame Bernie Madoff.

My credo is simple. I am not willing to pay first world prices for third world goods. 

Steel, ti, carbon made in the U.S., I'll pay. Chinese carbon, which the manufacturer searched the world to find the absolute cheapest labor, sold for the same price (or even higher) as frames made in the first world by skilled labor, no thank you. I'll buy no-name Chinese instead.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

foto said:


> Hmm...yes. Nothing says "state of the art" like a CF road bike with aero bars and molded plastic platform pedals.


:lol: :thumbsup:

Would rep you if I hadn't 'given out too much rep in the past 24 hours'.
In other words, if the site would let me.
.


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## Defy (Apr 22, 2012)

foto said:


> Hmm...yes. Nothing says "state of the art" like a CF road bike with aero bars and molded plastic platform pedals.


Lol! Very true indeed. . This pic was taken right after I got home from the bike shop. I had to go out and get a pedal wrench to take off my clipless pedals off the lemond since you can't use a regular 15mm craftsman wrench and so it took a couple of days. But I do appreciate the good catch, regardless of the rudeness. No biggie, maybe I'll take another pic in the future...but now that I had the bike for a little while the novelty has kind of worn off. At least enough to warrant taking another pic.

Seriously, my 2010 bike I bought on sale in 2012 in its entirety is hardly state of the art. No internal cable routing, no this, no that, blah blah blah. But I digress 

My point was and still is that steel, while still serviceable and a great fit for a lot of people is not making a comeback...and will be slower (if that matters to u). Taking silly pot shots at my nice pedals that the LBS left on for me to take off won't change that, unless in 2013 Giant rolls out a new aero bike made out of true temper ox. 

And cost is a factor, since carbon bikes are expensive. All the other factors about 20 year old Chinese girls etc., while is an excellent point, doesn't chg the price that Giant or Trek charges for their "high-end" bikes. Well, everyone has a price point. Those more fortunate than me can buy the latest and the greatest. Mine is good enough for me and hopefully will last a while. At least I got to reuse my 105 pedals I bought last year, in silver. . YES!


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

The majors, and Giant is almost the definition of the majors lately, don't represent the entire cycling market. They hit a couple big groups, but there are plenty of production steel bikes and plenty of people buying them. Surly, Salsa, Jamis, Raleigh, Redline, Trek, Specialized.

It's probably done as the main material for production racing bikes. But it's not like the majority of cyclists are racers, and a lot of people want steel for whatever reason. I think it even is having a comeback on a lot of fashion bikes.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Defy said:


> Lol! Very true indeed. . This pic was taken right after I got home from the bike shop. I had to go out and get a pedal wrench to take off my clipless pedals off the lemond since you can't use a regular 15mm craftsman wrench. But I do appreciate the good catch, regardless of the rudeness. No biggie, maybe I'll take another pic in the future...but now that I had the bike for a little while the novelty has kind of worn off. At least enough to warrant taking another pic.
> 
> Seriously, my 2010 bike I bought on sale in 2012 in its entirety is hardly state of the art. No internal cable routing, no this, no that, blah blah blah. But I digress
> 
> My point was and still is that steel, while still serviceable is not making a comeback. Taking silly pot shots at my nice pedals that the LBS left on for me to take off won't change that, unless in 2013 Giant rolls out a new aero bike made out of true temper ox.


No 11 speed, no electronic shifting, no hydraulic disc brakes, no carbon rims, no carbon cranks with freak-out chainrings, no aftermarket CNC nothing, no power meter, no bento box. That bike is sooo 2007.


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

AndrwSwitch said:


> The majors, and Giant is almost the definition of the majors lately, don't represent the entire cycling market. They hit a couple big groups, but there are plenty of production steel bikes and plenty of people buying them. Surly, Salsa, Jamis, Raleigh, Redline, Trek, Specialized.
> 
> It's probably done as the main material for production racing bikes. But it's not like the majority of cyclists are racers, and a lot of people want steel for whatever reason. I think it even is having a comeback on a lot of fashion bikes.


Kona and Masi plus all the new upstarts like All City and Traitor.


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## nelzbikes (Dec 27, 2011)

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/album.php?albumid=291&pictureid=74
Steel fixed gear.


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## Chris Teifke (Aug 11, 2012)

As a material for racing? No, not so much. For general riding, absolutely!


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## nelzbikes (Dec 27, 2011)

Sorry. [email protected]&$)((;:ing iPad. Can't copy text, or I don't know how to anyway with this thing.


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## nelzbikes (Dec 27, 2011)

STEEL!


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## f1junkie (Feb 19, 2006)

I live in an area where on a weekend group ride (I never participate) I'll see old white guys all aboard carbon and (maybe) some nice titanium.

I have three steel bikes.

I own steel over carbon because:

I'd rather be riding than sending it back to have a cable guide re-rivieted.

I'd rather be riding than sending it back to have the creaking BB fixed with loctite.

I'd rather be riding than sending it back to try to fix the creaking integrated headset.

I'd rather be riding than sending it back to find out why a dropout separated from the chainstay.

I'd rather be riding than sending it back to special order one of 30 different BB types.

I'd rather be riding than try to figure out numerous other reasons why...


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## Bill Bikie (Jul 24, 2010)

trailrunner68 said:


> Actually it's all about low weight and stiffness nowdays. The problem is that twenty years ago you could build a frame that was too stiff out of aluminum. Now all the big manufacturers are intent on making their frames even stiffer than those old Cannondales.


And don't forget about Klein, the original! I loved my Klein.


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## bmxhacksaw (Mar 26, 2008)

Matt1986 said:


> Is steel making a comeback?


I hope so. *Click Here* to see my first frame.


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## NickRuns (Aug 17, 2012)

I love my steel frame and if always prefered the look I steel frames over any other.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Teifke said:


> As a material for racing? No, not so much. For general riding, absolutely!


Viner Aeternum in XCr stainless. 14.8 lbs ready to ride.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

Hey Scooper....taking my Waterford down to the factory tomorrow to show her where she was born!


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## foto (Feb 7, 2005)

Chris Teifke said:


> As a material for racing? No, not so much. For general riding, absolutely!


MAX « Hampsten Cycles

Dreambike. I'd race the crap out of this thing. Heavy? A little, but after 1/2 a mile I don't go uphill fast anyway.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

there is nothing wrong with quality steel but I do prefer titanium..... 8^)
Enjoy - whatever you choose to ride. 
Even aluminium will ride well if its properly built and matched with quality carbon forks, good wheels, tyres (and tyre pressures!) and well fitting saddle and bibs.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Touch0Gray said:


> Hey Scooper....taking my Waterford down to the factory tomorrow to show her where she was born!


That's great, ToG!

You'll have to let us know how you visit went.


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## Touch0Gray (May 29, 2003)

very nice, great weather fantastic ride.....GORGEOUS bikes!


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## Pacer1 (May 21, 2012)

Just got back from a nice ride on my steel Surly Pacer. The smoothest bike I've ever been on, its like there are no bumps in the road. Nothing beats the ride of a steel frame.


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## GGW (Jul 13, 2008)

foto said:


> MAX « Hampsten Cycles
> 
> Dreambike. I'd race the crap out of this thing. Heavy? A little, but after 1/2 a mile I don't go uphill fast anyway.


Just make my first ride today in the hills on a brand new Hampsten LDV (La Dolce Vita steel version of the titanium Grand Paradisio) usualy i'm riding a Trek madone 5.2 DA 7900 on D3 tubular .I put the wheel ont the Hampsten LDV 17.1 pound, Campy Athena . I'm blown away by the ride quality it's amazing compare to my madone who is also comfortable, but ! Its not noodly at all , very reactive ,laterally stiff and vertically compliant,you feel the bike light.When i got to the hills i push on the pedal and it just get up and go .i have a few section in my area between 16% and 19% and i was not slower like if i was climbing on the the madone but in a better riding position to climb .On the flat in the drop a charm .Great bike and great build quality .Worth every penny i spend for .I think my Madone needs vacation for the rest of the summer  Please forgive my broken english .
http://www.hampsten.com/bikes/gran-paradiso


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## trailrunner68 (Apr 23, 2011)

Bill Bikie said:


> And don't forget about Klein, the original! I loved my Klein.


I had a Klein, made before the company was acquired by the Borg. In fact, I still have it but it is not built up.

The older Kleins rode better than the Cannondale's with downtubes the size of a sewer pipe.


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