# 700x23 vs 700x25 for my situation



## FollowTheTrainCJ (Jun 26, 2014)

Getting a new road bike that comes with pretty cheap 700x23mm tires and I want to slap on some Continental Gatorskins right away but I don't know which size would suit me better. 

I'm not a racer and I only ride for exercise on a 100% paved concrete bike path where some parts are a little rough for instance under highways and whatnot but the majority is smooth sailing.

From my research on this topic that has probably been discussed millions of times, ideally most people concluded the 700x25 would provide slightly better handling, would allow you to run a little bit less than max PSI for a smoother ride, would be less prone to flats, but would have a little less rolling resistance than the 23mm size. Most of these threads that came up were from a few years ago though so I want to know if the trend has changed a bit since then? What are pros and avid road cyclists training with now a days?

I'll be completely honest I just want to go fast...it's not like the bike path I ride on has crazy turns or anything like that.


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## vagabondcyclist (Apr 2, 2011)

How much do you weigh? 

Me, I'd go with the 25 tires because you can run a lower PSI than with 23 tires, especially since you ride where the surface is a bit rough.


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## FollowTheTrainCJ (Jun 26, 2014)

vagabondcyclist said:


> How much do you weigh?
> 
> Me, I'd go with the 25 tires because you can run a lower PSI than with 23 tires, especially since you ride where the surface is a bit rough.


I weigh around 175-180 lbs. 

The bike path I ride is only a little bit rough on some parts where it goes under highways and main streets, but 95% of it is smooth sailing. 

The threads I pulled up were a few years old, is it common practice for all road cyclists in training or even racers to use 25mm now a days?


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## brucew (Jun 3, 2006)

FollowTheTrainCJ said:


> is it common practice for all road cyclists in training or even racers to use 25mm now a days?


More common that it used to be, although by no means universal.

If ride quality over concrete expansion joints is the problem you're trying to solve, avoid Gatorskins. They're a fairly harsh-riding tire. Conti GP 4-Seasons ride a whole lot nicer and IME have equal puncture resistance. Conti GP 4000S ride better still, but you give up sidewall protection.

And just go with the 25s.


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## FollowTheTrainCJ (Jun 26, 2014)

brucew said:


> More common that it used to be, although by no means universal.
> 
> If ride quality over concrete expansion joints is the problem you're trying to solve, avoid Gatorskins. They're a fairly harsh-riding tire. Conti GP 4-Seasons ride a whole lot nicer and IME have equal puncture resistance. Conti GP 4000S ride better still, but you give up sidewall protection.
> 
> And just go with the 25s.


Thanks.


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## kukula (Feb 23, 2008)

I weight about the same as you and ride in the same conditiond. I use 25s exclusively. I use schwalbe ultremos at 95 psi. Good handling. Low rolling resistance. Never had a puncture in 2 seasons.


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## NJBiker72 (Jul 9, 2011)

I recently made made the switch from 23 to 25. Love it. Using Vittoria Rubino Pro which I would highly recommend for overall quality. If just concerned about flats look at Maxxis Refuse over Gatorskins.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

yeah, 25mm for sure in the rear. I prefer 23 in the front though (handling feels quicker) but I'm about 30 pounds lighter than you.

If your objective is speed and the path and roads are clean like you imply I'd consider something other than Gatorskins.
I consider Gatorskins to be high end commuter tires but low end 'go fast' or 'plush' tires.


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## bikerector (Oct 31, 2012)

NJBiker72 said:


> I recently made made the switch from 23 to 25. Love it. Using Vittoria Rubino Pro which I would highly recommend for overall quality. If just concerned about flats look at Maxxis Refuse over Gatorskins.


2nd the Refuse, pretty sure every time I see a tire thread I see NJBiker recommending the Refuse as well as an alternative to gatorskins. 

Refuse ride a lot better than gatorskins in my option. I think the casing on the gatorskins makes them pretty harsh or maybe it's the rubber tread. gatorskins are pretty iffy in the wet as well, at least they were for me. The refuse has been much better for me though they can be a PITA to mount up the first time.

Conti GP 4000 has been a go to all-around tire for a long time and I know a lot of racers that use them for training and really like them. I think they cost too much compared to the alternatives since I go through tires pretty quick being a 220 pounds racer. The racier conti's only last me a month or 2 when I used them so I didn't trust the more expensive racey tires from them for longevity for me which is how I ended up with gatorskins.

I haven't used the new michielin pro race 4 endurance but I really liked the pro race 3 as a race tire and the PR 4 endurance is supposed to be similar but with more rubber. I've heard good things from the few people I know that have them but I think I've heard that the 25's run a little wide which could be a concern for tire clearance.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW: I'd wear out the stock tires before springing for new ones.


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## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Another vote for 25. I switched from 23 a couple years ago and dropped pressure, and I am very pleased with the improvement in handling, comfort and cornering. And they're cheap tires. And I don't feel slower at all.

I weigh about 150.


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## expatbrit (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm with loogi on the wear 'em out train.

My girl is trying out Spesh's compromise tyre; the 23mm contact patch/25mm volume Roubaix. She went from 23mm espoirs, though.

I actually have the same tyre but tubeless, coming from 28mm Gatorskin Hardshells. It's pretty nice, but still rough on bad chip seal. Shocking.


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## expatbrit (Oct 16, 2013)

Oh, and I weigh about 185-190.


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## 2clueless (Jul 31, 2008)

I switched from Gatorskin 23mm to Rubino Pro slick 25mm. Running the same pressure I felt very little difference in ride comfort, it was there but not enough to justify the jump up to 25mm. However when I dropped my usual 110/115psi setting to 95/100, the change was significant! The gatorskin never felt the subtle at the lower pressure, but the Rubino were golden. Another thing I notice is more confidence with the larger tires in high speed corners, not something I was expecting. For the record, I am 5'11 at 155-160 riding weight.


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## ericm979 (Jun 26, 2005)

25s have the same or slightly less rolling resistance than 23s. They're like 10g heavier. The only reason to not run them is 1) you're an aero weenie and 2) personal inertia.

I'm in the second camp, also I'm 145 lbs so I'm already running a low pressure. One day I'll try 25s.

@Bikerector- I find that GP4000S tires last twice as long as Michelin PR3/4s. The list price is high so I load up on them when they come on sale for 50-60% of that.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

You typically can't go wrong with 25c tires. I use the Conti GP4000S because they roll smoothly and have good cornering grip. They also last decently long. Unfortunately, only the 4000 S2 is available now, so the prices are high. I always wait to buy those when they're down to <$40/tire. If you're on a lower budget, the Vittoria Rubino Pro 3s are the way to go. Then again, if money is no object, you can always go with Mike T's staple tire, the Gucci Open Corsa Evo CX III.


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## heybrady (Jul 3, 2011)

Go with 25c. Keep pressure about 10% less than with 23. I would say at 180lbs you can go 80/90psi with ease. I am 210 and run 95/105 without issue. 

I think most people go way high on pressure, thinking harder=faster.


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## BlazingSlow (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm a 210 lb guy, and I just changed from 23mm OEM tires to 25mm Gator hardsides. They are AWESOME!! it is smoother by a long margin, there is hardly any weight difference (I haven't noticed), traction feels great, and I don't feel so bad when I ride through/across less than desirable patches in the road. 

I agree with Heybrady on the pressure. let them go softer.


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## FollowTheTrainCJ (Jun 26, 2014)

kukula said:


> I weight about the same as you and ride in the same conditiond. I use 25s exclusively. I use schwalbe ultremos at 95 psi. Good handling. Low rolling resistance. Never had a puncture in 2 seasons.


Thanks.


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## FollowTheTrainCJ (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies guys! I was certain Gatorskins were the way to go but it appears a lot of you guys say otherwise. I guess I'll have to do more looking. I'm 90% certain I'll buy from Amazon since I have a prime membership, so I know they stock the Gatorskin Wire Bead, Gatorskin Folding, Continental Grand Prix 4 Season, Michelin Pro4, and a few others that I probably wouldn't consider due to being too expensive. 

I guess it'll come down to one of those 4, I'll have to do some more research.


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## 2clueless (Jul 31, 2008)

FollowTheTrainCJ said:


> Thanks for all the replies guys! I was certain Gatorskins were the way to go but it appears a lot of you guys say otherwise. I guess I'll have to do more looking. I'm 90% certain I'll buy from Amazon since I have a prime membership, so I know they stock the Gatorskin Wire Bead, Gatorskin Folding, Continental Grand Prix 4 Season, Michelin Pro4, and a few others that I probably wouldn't consider due to being too expensive.
> 
> I guess it'll come down to one of those 4, I'll have to do some more research.


If you want a good budget tire look at the Rubino Pro 2 or 3. Performance has them for 25-30 a tire. I personally am enjoying them a lot right now.


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## FollowTheTrainCJ (Jun 26, 2014)

2clueless said:


> If you want a good budget tire look at the Rubino Pro 2 or 3. Performance has them for 25-30 a tire. I personally am enjoying them a lot right now.


Thanks.


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## psycleridr (Jul 21, 2005)

Another vote for 25cc. I went as far as trying 21cc at one point and it sucked. 23cc is not bad but I feel more confident and comfortable on 25cc at around 95psi vs 23cc and 105-110psi. 
As for tire choice I am not a fan of any Michelin as I think they wear very fast and are the biggest PIA of all to get on. Conti's are great. MAXXIS Refuse I think are great all around although on heavy side but they are more commuting than racing so no biggie. 
For the most part I ride whatever 25cc is on sale for daily rides/training rides. Continental GP4000S exclusively for race day. Do love those but mega expensive even with good wear


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

FollowTheTrainCJ said:


> Getting a new road bike that comes with pretty cheap 700x23mm tires and I want to slap on some Continental Gatorskins right away but I don't know which size would suit me better.
> 
> I'm not a racer and I only ride for exercise on a 100% paved concrete bike path where some parts are a little rough for instance under highways and whatnot but the majority is smooth sailing.
> 
> ...



I am no a club racer but I do not see many people on 25 mm tyres (around Edinburgh).

I for one am quite happy with 25 mm tyres and cannot imagine going back to 23 mm ones.

I really often wonder why the 25 mm tyre revolution hasn't taken off yet.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

It's helpful to take into account the inside rim width (between brake tracks) as that will heavily influence inflated tire width. Spent a bunch of the day yesterday measuring inflated widths of different tires on different rims. Just one example - a Conti 4kS II on one wheel measured 25.9mm wide on one rim, and 27.3mm wide on another. A 23 on the wider rim was more similar to the 25 on the narrower rim than the 25 on the wider rim was to the 25 on the narrower rim. And these were both "wide" rims. On a conventional rim of 14mm between the brake tracks, that same 25mm tire would likely be just at 25mm or narrower (I didn't have such a rim on which to measure it). 

The rim affects the tire in profound ways.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

November Dave said:


> It's helpful to take into account the inside rim width (between brake tracks) as that will heavily influence inflated tire width. Spent a bunch of the day yesterday measuring inflated widths of different tires on different rims. Just one example - a Conti 4kS II on one wheel measured 25.9mm wide on one rim, and 27.3mm wide on another. A 23 on the wider rim was more similar to the 25 on the narrower rim than the 25 on the wider rim was to the 25 on the narrower rim. And these were both "wide" rims. On a conventional rim of 14mm between the brake tracks, that same 25mm tire would likely be just at 25mm or narrower (I didn't have such a rim on which to measure it).
> 
> The rim affects the tire in profound ways.


EXACTLY!

Plus all 25's are different. My Michelin Pro Race 3 25's are wider than the Conti GP 4000 25.
Enough of a difference that the Michelin Pro 3's did not clear the rear on a Giant TCR aluminum frame but the Contis did.


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## SauronHimself (Nov 21, 2012)

November Dave said:


> It's helpful to take into account the inside rim width (between brake tracks) as that will heavily influence inflated tire width. Spent a bunch of the day yesterday measuring inflated widths of different tires on different rims. Just one example - a Conti 4kS II on one wheel measured 25.9mm wide on one rim, and 27.3mm wide on another. A 23 on the wider rim was more similar to the 25 on the narrower rim than the 25 on the wider rim was to the 25 on the narrower rim. And these were both "wide" rims. On a conventional rim of 14mm between the brake tracks, that same 25mm tire would likely be just at 25mm or narrower (I didn't have such a rim on which to measure it).
> 
> The rim affects the tire in profound ways.


Yeah, on my Rails a 25c 4000S measures 26.8-27.0 mm wide.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

November Dave said:


> It's helpful to take into account the inside rim width (between brake tracks) as that will heavily influence inflated tire width. Spent a bunch of the day yesterday measuring inflated widths of different tires on different rims. Just one example - a Conti 4kS II on one wheel measured 25.9mm wide on one rim, and 27.3mm wide on another. A 23 on the wider rim was more similar to the 25 on the narrower rim than the 25 on the wider rim was to the 25 on the narrower rim. And these were both "wide" rims. On a conventional rim of 14mm between the brake tracks, that same 25mm tire would likely be just at 25mm or narrower (I didn't have such a rim on which to measure it).
> 
> The rim affects the tire in profound ways.



You should also measure the heighth. I do not know why people are so set on the width alone.


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## November Dave (Dec 7, 2011)

dracula said:


> You should also measure the heighth. I do not know why people are so set on the width alone.


We do measure height. It's typically a much smaller variance, for example the tire on two rims that showed a 1.4mm variance in width showed only a .4mm disparity in height (the tire was taller on the rim on which it was also wider). So obviously you are getting a lot more volume in the tire per given psi, and volume is ultimately what we want to measure. Haven't figured out an accurate way to do that. Counting floor pump strokes is the only thing we can do now (so we do), but while it's generally consistent with the direction of variance (the wider/taller tire in this example took 25 strokes to go from 0 to 100 psi, the narrower/shorter tire took 23), it's not repeatable enough to really use. 

What you're really after is optimum air volume in your tires. People think I'm nuts when I tell them the only time I even get close to 100 psi in on rollers or when I'm doing a test at 100 psi (brake heat downhill tests are done at 100 psi). Apart from that, I'm at like 80. Between the two rims in this test, using the pump stroke count, the same volume of air is about a 6 psi delta. 

But width is kind of the headline driver, just because changes so readily and obviously.


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## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

Anyone try the Conti Grand Prix 25mm that's out now? Not the 4000 or 4000s or 4000 sii but the original. I read they remade them with more rubber and have the black chili rubber and it replaced their race tire.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Another vote for Maxxis Re-Fuse. They are bulletproof. And you may even want to go up to 28s if they will fit in your frame. I recently made the switch from 25s and it made a world of difference in ride quality without any noticable sacrifice in speed.

As one other here said, many people eroneously thing higher PSI = faster. Up to a certain point, that is true. However, depending on the road surfaces you ride on, higher pressure can actually make you slower. If you are bouncing along more on substandard road surfaces, that is robbing forward motion. High pressures are necessary with skinny tires to avoid pinch flats and most 23s require 120PSI in the rear as a result. You can keep less pressure in the front since most of your weight is over your rear tire. With the 28s I have now, I generally keep 80PSI front, 100PSI rear. Much nicer quality ride.


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