# 11 speed chain issues



## ishmaelmuscat (Oct 30, 2008)

I use my Crankbrothers multipurpose tool, which also includes a small chain tool with it to close chains.

Campagnolo say that the 11 speed chain needs special 11 speed chain tool. They also said that for the 10 speed chain but I always used the above simple chain tool to close the chain. Also used it for Shimano chains on my mountain bike.

My question to you is: do you think a simple chain tool can close the 11 speed chain? I never had problems with the 10speed chain using the simple tool.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*no...*

The new joining pin is entirely different and requires the end to be peened to hold it in place. The new tool is the only one that fits the 11 speed chain and has the ability to peen the joining pin.

Tools that fit 10 speed chains will most likely not support the back side of the chain properly. My Park chain tool does not fit properly. The U-shaped fork hits the inner plates and prevents the back side of the chian from touching the back supporting jaw. The back of the jaw would need to be shimmed, or the middle fork filed down to fit an 11 speed chain.

The previous HD-L 10 speed joining pin could be installed with most ordinary chain tools, but not the new 11 speed.

If you broke and rejoined 10 speed chains with the same pin, you're taking a great risk.

The new 11 speed chain also behaves differently than any other chain I've seen. When a pin is pushed out to set the chain length, peening actually breaks off with a snap, leaving a small ring of material on the driving pin. After that, the pin has no holding power at all.

If I got in a real jam with an 11 speed chain, I'd try a Shimano 10 joining pin, inserted from the left side. If it take a substantial effort to push the pin in place, it would probably hold.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*more...*

Here's a little more detail about the new joining pin. Although I've noted how the new tools "peens" the end of the pin, it's really not a conventional peening process where the pin material is deformed. The right end of the pin has a shallow split in it and there is a separate tube inside the joining pin. The new tool has a conical driving pin that flares the end of this tube, spreading the split end of the pin apart. The conical point is a little less than a 90 degree included angle. 

I'm sure that a conventional chain tool could have the end of the driving pin ground to a conical shape and the jaws modified to support the left end of the pin, but it seems like a lot of work when the Campy tool can be had for $150 or so.


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

Just wait a few months and Wippermann should have a solution.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*first time...*



onrhodes said:


> Just wait a few months and Wippermann should have a solution.


If Wipperman makes a connex link to fit some other brand of chain it will be the first time. Their links are made to fit their chains and not other brands. Sometimes their chains copy all the critical dimensions of another brand, but not always. An example is their 10 speed chain referred to as "Shimano compatible", but the connector link would not fit on a Shimano chain (the old Campy compatible model will). Oddly enough, the 10S1 link that won't fit a Shimano chain will fit on a Campy UN or SRAM chain. It's all about the width between the inside of the plates.


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## xxxxx (Oct 31, 2008)

I think I am going to try the KMC 5.88mm 10 spd. link. I think it is the narrowest link currently around. In the early day of 10 spd. I used a 9spd. SRAM link without too much trouble. Has anyone else already tried this?


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## the Inbred (Feb 28, 2004)

I wish I would've thrown a 10sp chain on my Chorus 11 before installing the 11sp chain. I'm kind of curious.


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## ishmaelmuscat (Oct 30, 2008)

*Have a try and let us know*



xxxxx said:


> I think I am going to try the KMC 5.88mm 10 spd. link. I think it is the narrowest link currently around. In the early day of 10 spd. I used a 9spd. SRAM link without too much trouble. Has anyone else already tried this?


In 2003, after using 10 speed campy since 2000, I was told that campy 9 speed chain works on 10 speed and is even stronger due to thicker width. I still use 9 speed campy chains on 10 speed campy sprockets on both my Record and Centaur set-ups.

You can have a try and let us know if 10 speed will work on 11 campy speed.


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## ishmaelmuscat (Oct 30, 2008)

*Try it out*



the Inbred said:


> I wish I would've thrown a 10sp chain on my Chorus 11 before installing the 11sp chain. I'm kind of curious.


In 2003, after using 10 speed campy since 2000, I was told that campy 9 speed chain works on 10 speed and is even stronger due to thicker width. I still use 9 speed campy chains on 10 speed campy sprockets on both my Record and Centaur set-ups.

You can have a try and let us know if 10 speed will work on 11 campy speed.

Did you use the special tool to install the 11 speed chain or a normal chain tool?


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## ishmaelmuscat (Oct 30, 2008)

*Thanks*



C-40 said:


> Here's a little more detail about the new joining pin. Although I've noted how the new tools "peens" the end of the pin, it's really not a conventional peening process where the pin material is deformed. The right end of the pin has a shallow split in it and there is a separate tube inside the joining pin. The new tool has a conical driving pin that flares the end of this tube, spreading the split end of the pin apart. The conical point is a little less than a 90 degree included angle.
> 
> I'm sure that a conventional chain tool could have the end of the driving pin ground to a conical shape and the jaws modified to support the left end of the pin, but it seems like a lot of work when the Campy tool can be had for $150 or so.


Thanks


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

C-40 said:


> If Wipperman makes a connex link to fit some other brand of chain it will be the first time. Their links are made to fit their chains and not other brands. Sometimes their chains copy all the critical dimensions of another brand, but not always. An example is their 10 speed chain referred to as "Shimano compatible", but the connector link would not fit on a Shimano chain (the old Campy compatible model will). Oddly enough, the 10S1 link that won't fit a Shimano chain will fit on a Campy UN or SRAM chain. It's all about the width between the inside of the plates.


Not exactly true, as you point out the 10S1 link worked with the UN chain. All you needed for the 10 speed UN chain was the 5.9mm link. So while Wippermann probably did not intentionally set out to probably do this, it worked anyways. That being said, I'd bet $100 that a 5.5mm connex chain will be out by Spring.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*



xxxxx said:


> I think I am going to try the KMC 5.88mm 10 spd. link. I think it is the narrowest link currently around. In the early day of 10 spd. I used a 9spd. SRAM link without too much trouble. Has anyone else already tried this?



The standard KMC link, for KMC chains is one of the wider links on the inside, where it counts. They do make a special version just for the Campy UN chain, which would be narrower, if you can find them. I think Ribble lists them, but they wre out of stock when I made a order.

A proper fit produces a side clearance in the .1-.2mm (.004-.008 inch) range. Feeler gages will probably show .010-.012 inch with the narrowest link available.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*I did...*



the Inbred said:


> I wish I would've thrown a 10sp chain on my Chorus 11 before installing the 11sp chain. I'm kind of curious.


The Campy 10 speed chain shifts lousy and it's noisy. A DA chain seemed a little better, but both were only on the workstand.


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## the Inbred (Feb 28, 2004)

ishmaelmuscat said:


> In 2003, after using 10 speed campy since 2000, I was told that campy 9 speed chain works on 10 speed and is even stronger due to thicker width. I still use 9 speed campy chains on 10 speed campy sprockets on both my Record and Centaur set-ups.
> 
> You can have a try and let us know if 10 speed will work on 11 campy speed.
> 
> Did you use the special tool to install the 11 speed chain or a normal chain tool?


I used the Campy 11 tool.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*coincidence...*



onrhodes said:


> Not exactly true, as you point out the 10S1 link worked with the UN chain. All you needed for the 10 speed UN chain was the 5.9mm link. So while Wippermann probably did not intentionally set out to probably do this, it worked anyways. That being said, I'd bet $100 that a 5.5mm connex chain will be out by Spring.


The coincidental fit of the 10S1 link on the Campy UN and SRAM chains is just that, a coincidence. The fit was actually a little sloppy, but tolerable. A link made for either of these chain would have been narrower on the inside.

Wipperman no longer makes the 10S1 and now only make one chain width. They chose the wider Shiman/KMC dimensions instead of the narrower 10S1 dimension. They don't sell any links now except the one that fits their chain. This link just happens to fit Shimano or KMC chains, but they offer nothing for those using the Campy UN or SRAM chains.


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## dodger150 (Feb 15, 2005)

*Chain Strength?*



ishmaelmuscat said:


> In 2003, after using 10 speed campy since 2000, *I was told that campy 9 speed chain works on 10 speed and is even stronger due to thicker width*. I still use 9 speed campy chains on 10 speed campy sprockets on both my Record and Centaur set-ups.
> 
> You can have a try and let us know if 10 speed will work on 11 campy speed.
> 
> Did you use the special tool to install the 11 speed chain or a normal chain tool?



I've seen this statement before (thicker=stronger), but I don't see it. It would appear to me that the strength of a chain is mostly driven by pin design, and the width of a chain is almost irrelavant. If a chain is narrowed due to reduced side plate thickness or chainring tooth thickness, and the pin is the same diameter/design, the chain strength should be same as the wider chain (provided the sideplate thickness is not the weak link... I have never seen a chain sideplate fail before a pin). Am I missing something?

I do see that in the interest of weight savings, the use of hollow pins and side plates with cutouts will result in weaker designs due to less material. But again, I don't necessarily see the width of a chain being a signficant factor.


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## onrhodes (Feb 19, 2004)

dodger150 said:


> I've seen this statement before (thicker=stronger), but I don't see it. It would appear to me that the strength of a chain is mostly driven by pin design, and the width of a chain is almost irrelavant. If a chain is narrowed due to reduced side plate thickness or chainring tooth thickness, and the pin is the same diameter/design, the chain strength should be same as the wider chain (provided the sideplate thickness is not the weak link... I have never seen a chain sideplate fail before a pin). Am I missing something?
> 
> I do see that in the interest of weight savings, the use of hollow pins and side plates with cutouts will result in weaker designs due to less material. But again, I don't necessarily see the width of a chain being a signficant factor.


I have had a couple, and then seen a few more that were not mine for chains that shear at the side plate. Once on a road bike, all other times were mountain bikes. Obviously a mountain bike sees a few odd ball circumstances that a typical road chain does not, but a side plate breaking is not unheard of.


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