# Downtube Shifters on Modern Derailleurs?



## instantturtle (Jul 10, 2012)

In theory, could you mount and use downtube shifters in friction mode on modern (road) derailleurs only limited by the shifter total cable pull?

Specifically:
Dura Ace DT shifters (I believe 7700 - rated 9 speed?)
SRAM Force 22 WiFli
Shimano 11-32 Cassette

I’ve read it’s “possible” with limits and in this case, probably swapping to a 9 speed cassette.

Anyone try this and successful? Or not possible and I’d need a different/older rear derailleur?


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## stan01 (Apr 30, 2014)

Any non-indexed down tube shifter will work with any range of cassette if that's the way you want to go. The Dura Ace 7700 dt shifters are a good choice. Another good choice is the Suntour Superbe Pro which has a ratcheting power shift in friction mode, just like the Simplex levers.

Shifting however will take practice to get the shifts accurate & smooth because with 11 gears, its very easy to over shift & miss the gear that you actually wanted. Its just like driving a stick shift for the first time but with practice you will get more used to doing it.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

stan01 said:


> Any non-indexed down tube shifter will work with any range of cassette if that's the way you want to go. The Dura Ace 7700 dt shifters are a good choice. Another good choice is the Suntour Superbe Pro which has a ratcheting power shift in friction mode, just like the Simplex levers.
> 
> Shifting however will take practice to get the shifts accurate & smooth because with 11 gears, its very easy to over shift & miss the gear that you actually wanted. Its just like driving a stick shift for the first time but with practice you will get more used to doing it.


I would be interested in hearing from someone who did this. Back in the day with 7s friction shifting, many were challenged by the need to slightly over-shift and then center the derailleur with a smooth motion. This technique would be additionally challenged with 11s spacing, though the addition of shifting ramps, improved chains, floating top pulleys, etc. may address some of this.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

I was using my 7 speed Ultegra drivetrain on my trainer with 11 speed cassette (12-25) for awhile. The front was a pain but the rear was fine.


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## 202cycle (Sep 13, 2011)

Bar-end shifters are downtube shifters mounted to handlebar plugs. If you want to run 9, 10 or 11 speed cassette and derailleur, just get a set of 9, 10 or 11 speed shifters. No need to run in friction mode unless you just really want to do that. Microshift makes good shifters at a reasonable price for this.


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## instantturtle (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for everyone’s feedback! Took it to the shop today and the mechanic will see what they can do!

I’ll post my results.

Shimano Dura Ace 7700 Downtube shifters
SRAM Force 22 WiFli
SRAM 8 speed chain
SRAM 11-32 8 speed cassette


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

It's going to be friction so it'll work fine, just don't try to use the indexing on the shifter.


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## instantturtle (Jul 10, 2012)

Yeah, I’m actually assuming it’ll work especially in friction mode and only using 8 speeds which I believe is lower than the 9 the Dura Ace’s are rated for.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

instantturtle said:


> Yeah, I’m actually assuming it’ll work especially in friction mode and only using 8 speeds which I believe is lower than the 9 the Dura Ace’s are rated for.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well you've also got a SRAM derailleur and Shimano shifters...no way that would work together, other than in friction mode.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Well you've also got a SRAM derailleur and Shimano shifters...no way that would work together, other than in friction mode.


Im sure I’m missing something here, but why?


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Really? Because SRAM and Shimano have different cable pull : derailleur movement ratios. They always have. That and the fact there here has never been an 8 or 9 speed SRAM road derailleur so even if the ratio was compatible you'd have a 10 speed shifter and an 8 or 9 speed cassette. Friction is the only way to make this work.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

cxwrench said:


> Really? Because SRAM and Shimano have different cable pull : derailleur movement ratios. They always have. That and the fact there here has never been an 8 or 9 speed SRAM road derailleur so even if the ratio was compatible you'd have a 10 speed shifter and an 8 or 9 speed cassette. Friction is the only way to make this work.


Thats a great explanation! It nails why it works and how!! My question was more geared toward why would you run friction if you have the option of indexed short of a nice vintage ride?


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

If you're going to run friction, and Simplex Retrofriction levers pull enough cable to work with your derailleur of choice, I would recommend them. They are, IMO, the finest friction shifters on the planet. They haven't been made in years, and can get pricey for NOS, but some nice used ones can be found at fair prices, if you shop around a bit.

https://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2013/09/retro-friction-part-one.html

https://sportifbicycle.blogspot.com/2011/01/simplex-retro-friction-shifters-part-1.html

https://sportifbicycle.blogspot.com/2011/01/simplex-retro-friction-shifters-part-2.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Si...498051?hash=item46a5732743:g:FTYAAOSw0gVeCJsa


I have a set mounted on an old Campagnolo equipped bike; and another set in the cabinet, just so I know I have them.


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## Mug (May 14, 2021)

Kerry Irons said:


> I would be interested in hearing from someone who did this. Back in the day with 7s friction shifting, many were challenged by the need to slightly over-shift and then center the derailleur with a smooth motion. This technique would be additionally challenged with 11s spacing, though the addition of shifting ramps, improved chains, floating top pulleys, etc. may address some of this.


I have been using Dura Ace 7700 downtubes for a couple years with a 105 50/32 11 speed front sprocket. 11 Ultegra front derailleur. A 105 10 speed SG rear derailleur and a 10 speed cassette for a while. It's all on a Raleigh Technium purchased new back in 1988. Stayed with downtube shifters because I always preferred the smaller size and feel of my old DiaCompe brake levers over anything new. It's been a stepping process and I am planning to jump to a 11 speed cassette in the future. On the brake side it has R7000 105 brakes. Much better stopping over the originals. And the DuraAce polymer coated brake cables work with the old DiaCompe levers.


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## Mug (May 14, 2021)

Before the new brake cables


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

Kerry Irons said:


> I would be interested in hearing from someone who did this. Back in the day with 7s friction shifting, many were challenged by the need to slightly over-shift and then center the derailleur with a smooth motion. This technique would be additionally challenged with 11s spacing, though the addition of shifting ramps, improved chains, floating top pulleys, etc. may address some of this.


I ran friction shifters up ‘til the mid-‘90s, and I never found 7-spd cassettes to be tricky to shift at all. But it may be one of those “you’ve either got it or you don’t” type things, aka the proper mental attitude.

IOW, it wasn’t just the slight overshift technique that was hard for some, some ppl just honestly never seemed to be able to develop the feel or touch needed to be a quick and deft ‘frictioneer.’ Perhaps due to viewing such as a chore, rather than a cool skill to have.

Indexing was a mercy for those ppl. 😕

Personally, I’m thinking of having an old Reynolds 531 Trek frame I have be built up as a 650B conversion, complete with 11-speed friction shifting (only ‘cuz 12-spd friction shifters don’t seem to exist yet).

Would probably do this late this year, after Omicron and supply chain issues stop being such a PITA, knock on wood. 🪵


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

Those of us who are tall and ride large frames (60 cm for myself), we do not miss having to reach all the way to the downtube every time we need to shift! Bar-ends or brifters!!


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Those of us who are tall and ride large frames (60 cm for myself), we do not miss having to reach all the way to the downtube every time we need to shift! Bar-ends or brifters!!


I've seen tall custom steel bikes built with down tube shifter bosses brazed to the top tube. Not my cup of tea, but at 6' I'm not dealing with that long a reach, and the brazed on bosses are more elegant than those shift levers clamped on to the stem that we've seen on Varsity level Schwinn's and such.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

velodog said:


> I've seen tall custom steel bikes built with down tube shifter bosses brazed to the top tube.


After Googling pics of top tube shifters, I have to say…


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## No Time Toulouse (Sep 7, 2016)

velodog said:


> I've seen tall custom steel bikes built with down tube shifter bosses brazed to the top tube. Not my cup of tea, but at 6' I'm not dealing with that long a reach, and the brazed on bosses are more elegant than those shift levers clamped on to the stem that we've seen on Varsity level Schwinn's and such.


Really? AND with bosses on the downtube as well? Because, those downtube bosses were always an important location for bar-end adapters with barrel adjusters. If you aren't going to use bar-ends, then you might as well just put them on the stem, like my 1970 Raleigh has...


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

No Time Toulouse said:


> Really? AND with bosses on the downtube as well? Because, those downtube bosses were always an important location for bar-end adapters with barrel adjusters. If you aren't going to use bar-ends, then you might as well just put them on the stem, like my 1970 Raleigh has...


No bosses on the down tube, purpose built with the shifters on the top tube. Here's a coupla pics I found on a quick search to give you an idea.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Wow, are those custom made? I’ve never seen shifters places on the top tube, those old stem mounted shifters, sure. Where are the cables routing for the brakes? Is the shifting as clean and consistent with mounting shorter cables on the downtube? I wonder how that might impact the standover height? I guess they are forward enough not to get in the way. I wonder why this design wasn’t more common?


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

Old school aftermarket downtube shifter mount/clamp? Tube diameter should be the same. Leverage? Don't fix what's not broken?! It also explain the popularity of bar ends. I remember they were very finicky to use and I hated to be in the drops.


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jkc said:


> Old school aftermarket downtube shifter mount/clamp? Tube diameter should be the same. Leverage? Don't fix what's not broken?! It also explain the popularity of bar ends. I remember they were very finicky to use and I hated to be in the drops.


Top tube is typically smaller diameter than the down tube.


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## jkc (Jun 23, 2014)

velodog said:


> Top tube is typically smaller diameter than the down tube.


Depends on the tube used and very small difference if exist where it won't matter for the clamp on shifter adapter (at least the one I used when I first got into cycling and couldn't afford a proper one).

















Bike Frame Design – the influence of tubing diameter and wall thickness


The usual assumption is that significant part of the ride characteristics of a frame is determined by its rigidity. An excessively flexible frame feels inefficient for power transmission and can be…




valvejob.wordpress.com


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## velodog (Sep 26, 2007)

jkc said:


> Depends on the tube used and very small difference if exist where it won't matter for the clamp on shifter adapter (at least the one I used when I first got into cycling and couldn't afford a proper one).
> View attachment 482702
> 
> 
> ...











This is the chart that is relevant, and you can see that a standard sized TT diameter is 1/8" less than the DT. That is a significant difference and would probably mean a loose clamp.


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## markperri666 (10 mo ago)

I just installed an ultegra 8000 rear derailler on my 1983 Trek 770 frame with an 11-speed cassette and discovered that my vintage (i.e., old, but awesome...) Campy downtube shifters have to go the full 180 degrees to negotiate all those gears. It doesn't seem to be too much trouble, for now, since you tend to be in the 0-90 degree range or the 90-180 degree range depending on the front gear, but I do have my eye on these: Dia-Compe 11 Speed Downtube Shifters. Brake-lever shifters are too expensive to experiment with and I'm not too sure I like the idea of them: they seem too easy, somehow.


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## Openroad2014 (Oct 10, 2014)

FD should be fine cause it does not move much. To run an older friction shifter with current 11 and 12 speed RD and cassette, cable pull is a key to be considered. also rear derailleur REAR SHIFT RATIO (Distance that rear derailleur moves laterally per 1 mm of cable movement) should also be considered. Many downtube shifters can not do 180 swing.


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## adidman (2 mo ago)

Thought I would give my 2 cents.. I have a 85 Peugeot psn10, I mounted a SRAM Red 11speed derailleur and a 10 speed chain onto the existing Campagnolo Victory crankset, with Campagnolo non-indexed downtube shifters, works as smooth as a top tier drivetrain does, aside from having to reach down and shift between your legs.. very soon it will have a SRAM 1x crankset with a 42 tooth ring. I just do booze-cruises mainly, just get non- indexed downshifters and call it a day.


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