# Advice for a noob to improve.



## vivid (Jun 1, 2012)

Hi all,

I'm 38, 200# and have a reasonable base fitness level. I've been road riding since dec '11 and was new to the sport then. This year I have ridden 2500mi so far. I currently ride 3 times a week, I try to squeeze in a 4th but it does not always happen. Rides usually are 40-70mi. I perceived effort during a ride is 6-8/10, I like to always push myself. When I look at my garmin data for the year and compare identical routes from earlier this year to now I don't really seem much of an improvement. For example:

this route from Feb SC 60mi by vividuk at Garmin Connect - Details
60.32 mi
3:16:18
MPH: 18.4 avg, 32.2
HR: 138 avg, 160max
RPM: 69 avg, 214 max (false reading for max)

The same route plus a few miles ridden in June SC w/ austin by vividuk at Garmin Connect - Details
67.39 mi
3:39:40
MPH 18.4 avg, 37.9max
HR: 148 avg, 168max
RPM: 83avg, 183max (again must be a false max reading)

On both rides I gave it a good effort. In fact, on the June route I rode with a stronger rider and we took turns pulling, this ride should have been markedly quicker. I would imagine the HR difference could be due to the increase in temp from Feb to June. I am frustrated that my speed for this route has not improved.

I am left thinking that I am missing something. I've thought about buying new gear, like light weight aero wheels, but decided that it's better to improve the motor rather than the equipment. This is where I need some help, how best to improve my motor. Below is a list of things that could be useful and I'm just not sure what order to tackle them:

1. VO2max test
2. coaching (create a training plan and review my rides)
3. take a spin class for my as my 4th ride per week. Both my LBS and the V02max testing center offer spin classes.
4. buy a power meter but not sure I am ready to invest that kind of money right now.
5. hammer out base miles for the first year then revisit the topic.

Right now I am thinking that getting VO2 max tested should be my first priority. I also think adding a spin class as my 4th ride per week would also be very beneficial. But I'm not sure if the coaching would be worthwhile without a power meter? 

I've also heard that for the first year you don't significantly improve, so just hammer out the base miles. I find this idea hard to swallow. I came to cycling from Crossfit where I expected to see weekly improvements.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I only have a limited amount of money to spend and want to spend it on what would be most effective.


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## CoachTJCormier (Sep 16, 2011)

I would say a couple of things
1 get a coach( but since I am one I'm biased)
2 VO2 max test maybe a good idea if you're going to do them on a regular basis (every 6-8 weeks)
3 A power meter is a great way to go then you really don't need a VO2 max test as you can test with that all the time(testing is training, training is testing - Dr Coggan).
4 Hitting it hard is a good thing but in order to get the benefit of the hard work you need to recover, so easy rides are good too.
It all depends on your goals what you want to do!


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## icsloppl (Aug 25, 2009)

Just my experience.

1. Loose weight. Gravity will get you every time. At 200lbs you're at a severe disadvantge to many riders.
2. Ride faster for shorter. While this is well understood in the running world, it's less so and harder to accomplish riding a bike. Continuously riding the same route at about the same speed (like you seem to be doing) will make you very good at riding that distance and speed. In order to go faster, you need to go faster, a lot faster.
3. You do have to put in massive miles to become a great (not good) rider. What you're doing is changing your body and muscular makeup. It's not a quick thing.
4. On your "other day", do weight training rather than a spin class. If you're riding enough miles to accomplish the three items above, you'll loose muscle mass, which is not necessarily a good thing.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

intervals. 

do them.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

What Creak and Ics said. Intervals are what you need, not steady average speed riding. You need to ride faster than you are riding (duhhh eh?) and the best way to do it is for short distances. Choose two sessions per week - short and a long interval ones. I do 20-30 second ones up very slight grades, to failure. Plus 4x8 minutes with 5 minute rests.

Forget spin classes  Forget power meters. Just ride hard & fast and rest lots - between ints and between rides. You'll get faster.


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## vivid (Jun 1, 2012)

thanks guys. 

I really need to start to do intervals more frequently. I've done a few rides where I try them like this http://connect.garmin.com/activity/176127628 but on the whole I prefer to ride longer rides. But I guess longer rides =/= achieving goals. 

One thing I did not mention before was my goals. There are some quicker group rides (~20mph) that I would like to ride on and not be dropped. My current avg for a typical hilly road route is 17-18.

Can I incorporate intervals into a longer ride? If I were to do a 50mi ride could I take the first 30mins and do intervals? Or, if I'm doing intervals right, should be exhausted from them and unable to ride any distance after?

Also if I were to do a hilly course and attack all of the hills would this achieve similar results to intervals? Or do intervals really need to be very structured, both in time, exertion, and course IE doing to same lap each interval?


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## bocksta (Mar 22, 2008)

From looking at your first ride file it had your heart rate pretty high right from the start. It could be that your using to much energy at the beginning of your rides. The problem is it feels like your putting in a good workout but in reality burning your matches to quickly. 

The intervals you want to be doing are more like 3 sets at 5-10 minutes long with your HR 80% of your max with rest in between (3-5 minutes) . 
If the 166 number is your max HR then the intervals your doing can dig you into a hole instead of helping you improve.

Heres a zone calculator for training by HR

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/heart_rate/heart_rate_zone_calculator_abcc_bcf.html


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

vivid said:


> One thing I did not mention before was my goals. There are some quicker group rides (~20mph) that I would like to ride on and not be dropped. My current avg for a typical hilly road route is 17-18.


If you can average 17-18 solo you can average 20 on a group ride if you have acceptable drafting skills. If you're hanging off the back due to nervousness than you're just doing a solo ride. Practice makes perfect. I used to lead many group training rides and organize club races and some people had very poor drafting skills. I organized a classroom session with an interactive table-top instructional teaching model and no-one showed up. So I stopped caring and let the poor drafters drop of the back. You can't help some people.



> Can I incorporate intervals into a longer ride? If I were to do a 50mi ride could I take the first 30mins and do intervals? Or, if I'm doing intervals right, should be exhausted from them and unable to ride any distance after?


I would spread them out over the whole ride. Cruise at 17mph average and do an 8-minute hard interval say every 1/2 hour.



> Also if I were to do a hilly course and attack all of the hills would this achieve similar results to intervals?


That IS intervals. I do one ride per week like that. I hammer all the short, shallow, rolly hills, soft-pedal (rest) on the downside and cruise the flats.



> do intervals really need to be very structured, both in time, exertion, and course IE doing to same lap each interval?


Read up on *Fartlek* intervals - random efforts based on variety.


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## vivid (Jun 1, 2012)

Mike,

thanks. I do a couple of hilly rides a week. Maybe I'm just not attacking the hills quite hard enough. The Fartlek system sounds a lot more fun that standard intervals.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

vivid said:


> I do a couple of hilly rides a week. Maybe I'm just not attacking the hills quite hard enough. The Fartlek system sounds a lot more fun that standard intervals.


Just don't fall into the trap of doing too much. You must be able to recover from the stress before it's repeated, otherwise you get slower, not faster. That's the hard part - finding what works best for you. If you don't do enough you don't improve and if you do too much you don't improve. It's a fine line between the two.

I'd limit myself to one "hill" session per week with a couple of days off or a couple of days of recovery (easy) riding before some other form of Interval session is done.

To your comment "Maybe I'm just not attacking the hills quite hard enough". You can't do them any harder than to "failure" - where you have no choice but to back off and rest. Make the hill sprint that you're doing so hard that you have no concern about what comes next. Don't hold anything back for the next eight sprints you had planned. Make the one you're doing your own personal olympic gold. Rest, recover and repeat. How many times you repeat is the $64,000 question and only you can decide that. Remember my sentence above - "If you don't do enough you don't improve and if you do too much you don't improve."

Anecdote - I used to know the coach of the 2nd best Canadian road cyclist ever - Steve Bauer. Steve was one of the two best roadman-sprinters in all of N.Am in the '80s. USA rider Davis Phinney was the other. Steve's coach would have him doing 200 meter sprints on a measured quiet stretch of road. He would time him with a stopwatch. When he timed three of the sprints at 10% over the time for the initial sprints then that was it for the day. Session over. Steve was getting tired and not recovering. You get the idea. This was long before power meters were thought of.

It's not easy for us to do without structured training but we have to try and be realistic and honest with ourselves. Most of us kinda succeed.


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## Frankinnj (Feb 8, 2009)

It sounds like your doing pretty good right now! I highly recomend what creakyness said about doing intervals, but also I believe you need a structured training plan, and would highly recomend a coach, or at the very least you should research cyling training plans. I for one cannot ride hard all the time, there fore i need to mix in easy training days as well as recovery time, I am 50 years old so I need the recovery time probably more so than my younger competitors. As far as the body weight goes, losing weight is certainly one way to increase your power/wt ratio which will be very noticable on climbs, but I would not get too wrapped up in that cuz i have been smoked by heavier guys especially on the flats. good luck!


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## Crack Monkey (Apr 19, 2007)

vivid said:


> One thing I did not mention before was my goals. There are some quicker group rides (~20mph) that I would like to ride on and not be dropped. My current avg for a typical hilly road route is 17-18.
> 
> Can I incorporate intervals into a longer ride? If I were to do a 50mi ride could I take the first 30mins and do intervals? Or, if I'm doing intervals right, should be exhausted from them and unable to ride any distance after?


Join the group rides. Sounds like you're strong enough for typical weekly rides. If it's a shop that runs the ride, let the leader know you're new to group rides, they'll probably make sure you don't get dropped (assuming they want to earn and keep customers).

As for the interval question, not really. But, by the time you do a 20-30 minute warm-up, 20-30 minute cool-down, and the intervals in between, you're still going to hit 25 miles or more. After most of my interval workouts, the ride home/cool-down is pretty tough - legs sapped, ready for dinner, etc.


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## Crack Monkey (Apr 19, 2007)

Also, a coach can be a good investment. I hired one this season and it's paid off. But, they can be pricey, and you can build your own plan with info from various books, forums, etc. I'd rather spend the money and not have to worry about it.


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## Cervelo S-5 (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Vivid!
Just some words of encouragement here. You have recieved a lot of really great advice on this one; especially from Mike and Creakyknees. The intervals are an absolute must......trust me on this as I have lived it just this year.I have been riding off and on for the past 6 years and after a couple of bad years (almost no miles) I decided that I would get more serious, do the winter training thing and pin a number on in some races as a rookie. I am 45 yoa and also a 200 pounder. I have gone from body building to cycling and am (although somewhat reluctantly) peeling off the mass that is unecessary on the bike. Last season a 30-32km/h solo ride average (sorry man, I am from Canada...18.6-19.8mph) was pretty acceptable for me. The great white North (Steve Bauer country Thanks Mike!) does not lend itself to outdoor winter riding epecially in the mountains where I live, so the trainer (ughhhhh) is a necessary evil. In November I started using some of the spinervals series with Troy Jacobsen and cycled through them @ 2-3 workouts per week on the trainer. Some weeks more intense than others. I used the Have Mercy the sequal, Totally Time Trial, Big Gear Strength, Hillacious and the Aerobic Base builder 5 as my guides. These provided me with the feel for how to and how long to do intervals and now that I am outside am able to adapt these to real road situations and simulated race conditions. Now 7 months after the fact if my "working average" on a solo ride is not 35 km/h ( 21.7mph) or better I am POed. Some accomplishments that I have managed as a result of the more structured training are a 10 mile ITT @ 26 mph, a 25 mile ITT @ 25 mph ave, and a 90 min training ride 2 weeks ago rolling hills and flat 90 min 35.6 miles averaging 23.9 mph. Although I am never going to be a climber, I am stubborn and find that I am not getting blown away anymore on the sustained climbs 6-8% over a 3-5 mile distance and my recovery times even under load have reduced significantly. This type of training WORKS WONDERS if you are smart! Listen to Mike when he says recovery is very important. Overtraining is just as dangerous as undertraining. Coaches are invaluable as their role to the athlete is more to HOLD THEM BACK FROM THEMSELVES than to push them into oblivion. Bocsta recommended a longer warm up period before you pound out the tough intervals and I concur. Remember that the damage you do at the begining of a ride does not go away at the end of the ride. Best of luck with this and from another relative rookie, thanks to all of those wise experienced "teachers" out there that continue to share their advice to all of us!

Cheers!


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## bikerookie (Jul 17, 2012)

fellow noob has a question. hills, sprints and constant changing of pace kill my legs really quick. But solo or constant pace rides feel fine even at high speeds (25+). Would doing intervals like these help? basically I have no quads.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerookie said:


> fellow noob has a question. hills, sprints and constant changing of pace kill my legs really quick. But solo or constant pace rides feel fine even at high speeds (25+). Would doing intervals like these help?


Train your weaknesses and race to your strengths.



> basically I have no quads.


You must have. Especially if you can ride at "25+".


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## bikerookie (Jul 17, 2012)

Mike

For me I"m stuck spinning the entire time. even while at the back I can't gear up to take a breather or my quads instantly hurt. 

While on the trainner i did some sprints and after the 2nd one my legs were shot. I just feel like they should last longer during/after short burst

My goal would be to go on the group rides when they do "30+"


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

bikerookie said:


> My goal would be to go on the group rides when they do "30+"


Mine too and every pro rider in N.Am as well.


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## bikerookie (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't get it. was that a joke? The shop by me said they try to do 1 a week.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Oh what was your "30+"? Average speed or miles ridden?


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## bikerookie (Jul 17, 2012)

they were talking ave mph. mine is 0 cause thats to fast for me. joyful cycles in nj said they do it & a group in bk, ny did 1 2 weeks ago.


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## Quattro_Assi_07 (Jan 13, 2006)

Evidently, you missed the post regarding sex. Doctor dorian says sex will provide some performance improvement and it doesn't cost a dime. At least it shouldn't cost... Oh, nevermind...


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## hrumpole (Jun 17, 2008)

bikerookie said:


> fellow noob has a question. hills, sprints and constant changing of pace kill my legs really quick. But solo or constant pace rides feel fine even at high speeds (25+). Would doing intervals like these help? basically I have no quads.


This is anaerobic work capacity (the ability to go hard, recover, and go hard again). 

Basically, you have a floor (threshold), and when you go over it, you get tired really quickly. You can only do that so many times before you crap out. So there are two things that help. The first is raising the floor by, for example, riding for 20 minutes at a pace that keeps you constantly out of breath but not gasping, resting for five-ten, and doing it again. RPE=7-8 (There are ways to do this with HR or power, but I'm assuming neither). This raises the floor so that these surges are easier, and bang for buck are one of the best things that you can do. The important thing is to keep a steady effort.

Things that also help are, for example, (1) over-unders (e.g., ride at threshold pace, go over for 1-2minutes, then recover at threshold). Try 3x10min on 5 minutes rest. Also, 4x2min (all out) on 3 min rest, 2 sets, with 8 minutes between). On the latter, you did them right if at 1:50 you see Jesus. If you really want to kill yourself, cut the rest to 2 minutes. While you're resting, try to keep pedaling--don't coast. Don't do more than 2-3 of these sessions per week in addition to your group ride. The 2 minute sessions are murder. Another session is 5x1 min on 5 min rest, killing yourself on the ones, or 15x1 on 1 minute. Follow up with 20 minutes at an RPE of 6-7 and you're done.

There are a hundred other ways to skin this cat. The key is specificity. If you've got miles in the legs, and what hurts is digging deep and recovering, then that's what you need to practice.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

vivid said:


> Hi all,
> 
> *I'm 38, 200# and have a reasonable base fitness level.*
> * I perceived effort during a ride is 6-8/10, I like to always push myself.*


that is your problem, you didn't build a decent base fitness level, to build that you need so spend most of the time at endurance and some time at tempo


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

Your average cadence is in the low side. You need to get use to 90+ cadence except for hills.

At your ave 79 cadence, you are not being efficient.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

zone5 said:


> Your average cadence is in the low side. You need to get use to 90+ cadence except for hills.
> 
> At your ave 79 cadence, you are not being efficient.


that's bullshit


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## zone5 (Aug 21, 2012)

plx said:


> that's bullshit


Take for what it is. I won't waste my time with ignorance. You really helped a lot with the OP.


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## plx (Mar 28, 2011)

ride lots


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