# I did it! I got the Bertoni! Sort of.....



## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

A while back I posted about an NOS Bertoni TSX that my compadre Mike bought over two years ago and has still yet to build. It was the 58 cm frame that I thought would be the best for me. Well, we still had the 56 cm c-to-c frame hanging in the rafters. The other day I brought it down to take some measurements. 56cm top tube, almost 58cm c-to-top. Very close to my Fuso and just .5 cm shorter than the Falcon in the top tube. Right seat post/stem combo and it would fit just fine. And darn, even with a steel fork that sucker is light. Plus I'm shrinking every day.

Jay, the sharp girl who works in the shop and who loves bicycles, just put the 54 cm on layaway. I'm thinking it'll be just my luck that some yabbo will come in and buy it. Several people have been in looking at them, and at $799.99 retail a steal.

Well, my lovely wife Jill has noted that I'm just not as happy unless I have a "project" going and the Falcon was done. She pushed me to do it and even donated $16 to the cause.

I went in today and put it on layaway figuring I could pay it off in a couple of months along with collecting the parts to build it. Right now I'm thinking '09 all alloy Centaur but we'll see what comes up.

Here's some pics. These are of Mike's 58 but mine is the twin.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

By the way, those aren't decals. The frame is engraved and graphics are painted on. And the frame was made by Daccordi.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

love those webbed lugs.

Awesome!


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

very nice.....I love the lugs and paint.......


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

lovely frame--what's not to like--italian, purple and a project!


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

paredown said:


> lovely frame--what's not to like--italian, purple and a project!


LOL! Money is tight right now but I just couldn't let this baby get away. But it doesn't have a pump peg. Where am I going to put my chrome Silca frame pump?


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## zmudshark (Jan 28, 2007)

Richard said:


> LOL! Money is tight right now but I just couldn't let this baby get away. But it doesn't have a pump peg. Where am I going to put my chrome Silca frame pump?


Along the seat tube!


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

zmudshark said:


> Along the seat tube!


I know that. It's just that it looks so much cooler on the top tube.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

HOT! Looking forward to the final build.

I remember wayy back walking into a LBS and they had a good handful of them. Why I chose the Vitus variant...:mad2: The SL version with Shimano 600EX was $875. :frown2: Might still have that '87 or '88 Bertoni catalog in the depths of the house...somewhere.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*Found another pic.*

I think this is the "actual" 56cm frame back when another RBR poster was interested.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

buck-50 said:


> love those webbed lugs.
> 
> Awesome!


Apparently, outside the U.S. this frame was sold as the Daccordi "Griffo", meaning "claws" for the webbed lugs.

A while back somebody from G.B. posted a fixed build with this exact frame, down to the colors, graphics, and engraving except that it was branded a "Daccordi."

According to our store owner, who is the brother-in-law of the late Ben Lawee (and who got his start in the bike biz working at Univega) these "top-of-the-line" frames were made by Daccordi. Other Bertoni frames over time were made by Bianchi and Rossin.

The best Univegas were made by Miyata, but they weren't simply "rebranded" Miyatas. Ben took a direct hand in frame design and graphics.

To me, it's really neat to have that direct link to the origins of this frame.:thumbsup:


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## vlckx (Mar 4, 2005)

Richard said:


> Apparently, outside the U.S. this frame was sold as the Daccordi "Griffo", meaning "claws" for the webbed lugs.
> 
> A while back somebody from G.B. posted a fixed build with this exact frame, down to the colors, graphics, and engraving except that it was branded a "Daccordi."
> 
> ...


I can assure my Daccorddi Griffe is an awesome ride!
Nice to see you took the plunge for this frame! 
Best, vlckx

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=150192&highlight=griffe


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Richard said:


> Apparently, outside the U.S. this frame was sold as the Daccordi "Griffo", meaning "claws" for the webbed lugs.
> 
> A while back somebody from G.B. posted a fixed build with this exact frame, down to the colors, graphics, and engraving except that it was branded a "Daccordi."
> 
> ...



I love the knowledge/history around here:thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

It is really good stuff


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Richard said:


> By the way, those aren't decals. The frame is engraved and graphics are painted on. And the frame was made by Daccordi.




the dt, tt and st are panto'ed? that columbus "sticker"? the big B on the ht? wow


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> the dt, tt and st are panto'ed? that columbus "sticker"? the big B on the ht? wow


I'm pretty sure the "Columbus stickers" are "stickers." But the one on the seat tube feels like it's under clear coat - pretty unusual for Italian frames of that era (the frame dates to around 1991.) Aside from the "pantographed" stuff, the graphics are as smooth as silk.

There will be no carbon bits on this baby. Only a quill stem and shiny aluminum need apply.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I just scored a Cinelli 1R stem and a 64-44 bar in pristine condition. Traded with my friend Jeff for a Thule roof rack setup I no longer had any use for (I now own a convertible - hah!)

The stem is a 130mm - may be a bit long but we'll see. As I posted earlier, the tt on the Bertoni is a cm or so shorter than I like (typical '80's-'90's Italian) so maybe this will work. At worst, I'll look like those 5'4'' Italians on 52cm frames with 130mm stems.

Then there's this beautiful Selcof seatpost in the store......

Just kidding! But the parts search commences.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Bertoni panot'd 3T stems and Gipiemme seat posts with the "B" emblem are out there. Now that will be a hunt.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Kuma601 said:


> Bertoni panot'd 3T stems and Gipiemme seat posts with the "B" emblem are out there. Now that will be a hunt.


I think I'll have plenty of time. I've been going through the QBP "bible" and even at "shop rat" prices it'll take awhile to get all the pieces. I've pretty much decided to go all alloy Centaur. As supportive of this project as my other half is, I promised it would be "pay as I go."

And it's not like I don't have a few nice bikes to ride in the meanwhile.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Richard said:


> I think this is the "actual" 56cm frame back when another RBR poster was interested.


webbed head tube lugs too.....wow....very nice


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2009)

Richard said:


> I think this is the "actual" 56cm frame back when another RBR poster was interested.


That was me.

I have that picture in my iPhoto library.


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## CIOCC FAN (Mar 3, 2007)

What's the shop?


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

CIOCC FAN said:


> What's the shop?


I don't know if it's appropriate to name our shop here on the forum. I tend to find it offensive when a certain person uses these discussions to plug his internet bikes.

Let's just say I work at a "family oriented" independent bicycle shop in Fountain Valley, CA (next door to Huntington Beach) that happens to be a Trek dealer. Do the "dealer search" routine on the Trek website and you'll find us.

Because of our service, knowledge, and the fact that we pretty much have "something for everybody" (and if we don't we can get it for you), we manage to survive with a big Performance store two buildings away.:thumbsup:


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## CIOCC FAN (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks! Sounds like somewhere worth a visit when I'm out that way.

Yeah, I agree with you on the comment...


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Dave Hickey said:


> webbed head tube lugs too.....wow....very nice


Just for you, Dave. I hadn't previously downloaded this picture.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*An incredible followup!*

Below is a new picture of the Bertoni. I'm posting it because the frameset is "home."

As I posted earlier, I'd put it on layaway as I was afraid someone was going to buy it out from under me. While Jill and I aren't hurting, we have to be careful as her hours have been cut back substantially.

And this takes us back to how it got "home." I live in a senior mobile home park where my late parents moved to in the early '80's. Nice place. And since I moved here in 2002, my best friend in the park has been Bob, retired Chief Inspector of the Long Beach, CA Police Department Harbor Division. We've helped each other with all kinds of projects. With his guidance I put in all new plumbing and lighting fixtures in our house. He's now 87 years old. An amazing character, he ran landing craft at practically every amphibious landing in the Pacific in WW II. And lived to tell about it. He was on the department in the '50's when Long Beach began building their marina. As he was the only one in the department who had a Class I Motorboat operators license, he was in the catbird seat when they decided to start a "harbor division."

The stories he has to tell! He was good buddies with John Wayne when the "Duke" kept his boat up there.

Well, about 4 years ago I got him a good deal on a Torker adult trike. He was riding the sucker everywhere and, by showing the thing off, I've sold 7 more to my neighbors.

Thanksgiving of 2007, he had a stroke. Looked bad at first but he has come back remarkably. Almost a complete recovery. He can no longer drive so he gets out on that trike every day - it's his freedom.

I was off today and we had arranged that he'd come over and I'd give his trike a much needed tuneup and cleaning. After my "fixie" ride this morning we got to it. Then he hands me this envelope. Sunday is my birthday and he said it was my birthday present. I set it aside and finished working on his "racing machine."

About 2:00 p.m. Jill got home from work and we three sat down at the patio table over some beers. I opened the envelope and what was inside was the money to pay off the Bertoni. I said I couldn't take it but he insisted. Said he'd rather see me get something that I loved and would make the best of while he could see it come to fruition rather than his greedy relatives who were just waiting for him to die. Crap, I was in tears.

I just don't know what to say except I'm "gobsmacked."

This one is for Bob Kennedy!:thumbsup:


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

Richard my friend, you deserve this bike....enjoy it..

good things happens to good people who do good deeds 

it couldn't happen to a nicer guy......I can't wait to see it in person



:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Henry Porter (Jul 25, 2006)

At first I couldn't decide if the bike or the story was better but after a bit of thought, the story is. Glad to see you have such a special friendship and can't wait to see it built up. Congrats.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## moschika (Feb 1, 2004)

Great story! :thumbsup: makes the bike all the more special. can't wait to see the final on this.


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## tihsepa (Nov 27, 2008)

Now thats cool. Not so much the bike (although it is cool) but the story.

You are a good person and deserve it.


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## VaughnA (Jun 3, 2003)

Awesome story. Karma does exist. Now build it up and take it by to show him. He'll be as pleased as you are.


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## zeytin (May 15, 2004)

Wow that's fantastic! He sounds like a wonderful knowledgeable man and obviously he thinks your pretty great too. Enjoy the bike and know that you deserve it.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Thanks all. I cannot say enough about this very special man. I'm still somewhat in shock.


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## OldEndicottHiway (Jul 16, 2007)

Fantastic story. I'm so glad, and for someone I don't even know!

Sounds like the both of you have some stories to tell...God bless those who've "been there, done that." 

Give Bob an RBR hug (yes I'm a chick) from us.


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## shawndoggy (Feb 3, 2004)

Rad story. I'm a pretty crusty MF'r and this thread brought a tear to my eye. Karma indeed!


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

VaughnA said:


> Awesome story. Karma does exist. Now build it up and take it by to show him. He'll be as pleased as you are.


He sat on the driveway with me and a few beers as I did all the work on the Raleigh and then the Fuso. He even gave me a set of new jewellers files to clean up the lugs on the Raleigh. Ragged on me, encouraged me, loved the "projects" as though they were his own. He didn't know squat about bicycles but he appreciates craftsmanship (he built custom "sabbot" racing sailboats) and detail.

We can't wait so I just may have to "credit card" some of the parts. I really want him to see this out and be a part of it.

I'll keep you all posted!:thumbsup:


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Excellent! :thumbsup:

Looking forward to seeing it up close.


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## refund!? (Oct 16, 2006)

Richard said:


> "...collecting the parts to build it."


I've got a handlebar/stem and seatpost that came on the Bertoni Superlight I purchased in the early 80's. It's a 120mm Cinelli 1R stem engraved with "Bertoni" and Cinelli 66-40 bars with ALMARC black leather stitched on. The seatpost is a Campy Super Record with the Bertoni "B" engraved on it. They're in a box in my shop. If you're interested send me a private message.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Refund, does your engraved stem have the same font style? 
Here's mine...I may do it as an SS.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Just an update. I scored an '07 Centaur UT crank - alloy of course - as that was the only year with the machined chainrings. Got it from Nashbar cheaper than an '09 with the stamped rings would have cost from one of our suppliers.

Also sprung for that Selcof seatpost. It's a beauty and just about as light as modern carbon. And it should be. Our "cost" on that baby was over $50 about 15 years ago.

Record 1" threaded headset is here too.

I'll do a "Hickey" and post some "parts pics" soon.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*Coming along!*

I took the frame into the shop today for Raymundo to "face and chase" it. I've done that a few times, but Raymundo (who built frames for Benotto in Mexico) has probably prepped more steel frames than I've seen.

Some pics.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Looks good!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Richard said:


> I took the frame into the shop today for Raymundo to "face and chase" it. I've done that a few times, but Raymundo (who built frames for Benotto in Mexico) has probably prepped more steel frames than I've seen.
> 
> Some pics.




pretty sure your hs, specifically the lower cup, is mismatched... when campy used that topnut, 1997-2000, the lower cup had the black plastic band around it. not sure what is going on there, but you have to go back even further than that to when the bigger bulker looking lower cup without the band (and "engraved" with RECORD) was used


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> pretty sure your hs, specifically the lower cup, is mismatched... when campy used that topnut, 1997-2000, the lower cup had the black plastic band around it. not sure what is going on there, but you have to go back even further than that to when the bigger bulker looking lower cup without the band (and "engraved" with RECORD) was used


It's a "New in Box" that I ordered from QBP. Looks just like the one in my 2009 Campy catalog.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

My recently bought Record HS is also the same.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Richard said:


> It's a "New in Box" that I ordered from QBP. Looks just like the one in my 2009 Campy catalog.




so it is... didn't even think they made a 1" threaded hs anymore


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

FatTireFred said:


> so it is... didn't even think they made a 1" threaded hs anymore


Thank the bicycle gods that they do. It's a beauty. Smooth as silk!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

Richard said:


> Thank the bicycle gods that they do. It's a beauty. Smooth as silk!




they stopped making 'em- or at least they disappeared from the catalogs- from 2001 through 2004... they reappeared in 2005 with the black plastic strip on lower cup, and in 2007 the black strip was removed

as long as King keeps making a threaded hs I'm happy- much better and better looking


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## Jimi_Lee (May 3, 2006)

Does anyone actually know the lineup of Bertoni frames from this time line. I am curious because I am meeting someone about a Bertoni just like the purple one in the OP today.

James


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Jimi_Lee said:


> Does anyone actually know the lineup of Bertoni frames from this time line. I am curious because I am meeting someone about a Bertoni just like the purple one in the OP today.
> 
> James


I can't give you the exact details, but at the end of the Bertoni run, the TSX was the top of the line. TSX - an evolution of SLX wherein the rifleing ran the full length of the tubes - was only around for a couple of years until it was supplanted by the Nivachrome series.

According to David,the owner of our shop, and the brother-in-law of the late Ben Lawee (the creator of Italvega, Univega, and Bertoni), Ben took a direct hand in the design and graphics of this frameset and had it built by Daccordi. The story is that Ben really just wanted to hang it on his wall as a work of art.

Like other manufacturers/importers of the time, there was a pretty full line of Bertonis from straight gauge Columbus Aelle to SL and SLX. We still have an EL-OS and MAX framesets in the store - both fillet brazed but with butt-ugly late '80's pink/blue neon paint jobs. The SLX model (which my friend Mike has) was a very pretty blue/red/green in a "Decor" type scheme.

Many of the lower to mid-range models came as complete bikes with Campy Triomphe and Victory groups as Campy was still in the OEM game at the time. (A girl in my club in the late '80's has a solid orange SL with the Victory group.)

Upper end stuff was framesets. We recently sold the last SLX that had been built up with first generation DuraAce 8 speed STI. My buddy Mike's is full Campy Record C.

When Ben died (prematurely I might add) his family had little or no interest in the bike business and they let Univega and Bertoni wither away. David, who managed to get the rights to the Bertoni name, recently consulted with me about reviving the marque. I told him if he slapped the name on a tig-welded aluminum POS from China I'd kill him. As it stands right now, he's actually considering lugged steel from Italy as there remains a solid "niche" market. De Rosa, Colnago, and Cinelli are selling every one they can produce.

I may be a bit biased, but my TSX is a stone beautiful frameset, a piece of Italian art that can (and will) be ridden. No wall art for me.:thumbsup:


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

I would enjoy the thought of a comparable built modern SL tubed version. This is for the one I let getaway back in '87 or there about's. Then I also feel same for the SL and SLX tubed Atalas that Gita was importing at the time. Not as clean as the Dacordi's like you have. Still many retro choices that cross my mind. 

Speaking of Ben's line-up[: saw a Univega last week being ridden by a day laborer. Looked to still have the 105 Biopace stuff on it.


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## Jimi_Lee (May 3, 2006)

Thank you for all of the info. Based out of what I read from this thread I decided to see a guy who had one posted on Craigslist. He had the an identical twin of the Purple fade to Silver TSX posted in this link. Pictures do not do the beauty of this bike justice. Save for three small spots, there are no scratches, dents, marks of any kind to the frame. The chrome drop outs don't even have marks from the wheels being mounted. It came with full DA with the exception of 600 chainrings, hubs, and rear der and has DA brifters. The price was right, but the frame is small, I ended up with an extra bike anyway.

I tuned the shifting and tightened everything up and took it for its first ride today. Thirty miles later and about 800' of elevation I was grinning from ear to ear. I rode faster than I ever remember going and up and down. In some ways I wish I just hated the ride so I could easily part with it and thin the herd (as per request of the GF). I will try and post some pics soon.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

*It's coming together!*

I don't know what to say except that one Bob Kennedy really wants to see this thing built.

My buddy Mike has decided for various reasons that he can't build his and he had a standing offer to me to sell parts that I helped him acquire for what he paid.

So today, he delivered some choice bits. A wheelset built by Wheelsmith - db 15/16 spokes, cross 3, laced into some silver Mavic Open Pro rims on 32o Campy Record hubs. '06 Centaur Ergos, rear and front derailleurs, Campy cables, all NIB.

And Bob "bankrolled" the whole thing.

I already had the '07 Centaur UT crank and cups, Cinelli bar and stem, and that gorgeous Selcof seatpost. Tires, chain, some cable housing and bar tape, blah blah!

One thing for sure. Gary at Phat Cycles can make custom decals and there is going to be a nice little "Bob Kennedy" sticker on the left chainstay!:thumbsup:


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

Coming along nicely.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

It's looking great... I love that seatpost


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm with Dave--that seatpost is great. It's already looking great & it will be even better finished.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

paredown said:


> I'm with Dave--that seatpost is great. It's already looking great & it will be even better finished.


That seatpost better be "great". Our wholesale cost for that Italian work of art was $50 - 15 years ago!!!!


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## Tigerprawn (Jun 7, 2009)

Great story and incredible looking bike! Hope you don't mind me posting a few of your pictures on my blog.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Tigerprawn said:


> Great story and incredible looking bike! Hope you don't mind me posting a few of your pictures on my blog.


Go for it. Anything I post here is "public domain" as far as I'm concerned. My only problem is that no matter what I do "photography wise", I just can't capture what this bike really looks like. Outdoor, indoor no flash, indoor with flash - it just doesn't do the colors, the detail, the chrome, and the contrast justice. And I have a good digital camera.

When I get it finished - hopefully in the next couple of weeks - I'll try hard to get some good pics. This Italian work of rideable art deserves it.


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## Kuma601 (Jan 22, 2004)

Excellent Richard! 
Hoping I catch-up with you one of these days to see it in person.


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## Gator3rd (Jun 10, 2011)

Hi Guys:

Surfing for Bertoni information and found this discussion. I have the identical Bertoni frame, tsx, 56cm and have over 25K miles on it. It is my Italian Stallion. The rest of it is Campagnolo Record: Record Delta Corsa Brakes with Delta levers with white hoods, Cinnelli 120mm stem (have original black Bertoni stem but too short), 3TTT Black Champion 6061 bars, Record Cranks, Record downtube shifters with Campagnolo 8 speed "Super" Record Titanium Cassette and Titanium Hubs (the hubs and cassette that came in the gold box), with Montreal Rims, radial laced from wheel, radial laced back wheel non-drive side and 2x crossed driveside, Record aero seatpost, and Regal saddle. Found the frame at a discount store, covered with light smoke residue. Paid $700 for it. Cleaned it up with soap and water...found the components...and 25K later it rides as it did the first time. I also have a DeRosa King XL with all Campagnolo Record Carbon 10speed with Bora wheels...that is my Italian Girlfriend...and she demands my attention. When I am not with her, she approves of me being with the Stallion. Two great bikes.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

Gator3rd said:


> Hi Guys:
> 
> Surfing for Bertoni information and found this discussion. I have the identical Bertoni frame, tsx, 56cm and have over 25K miles on it.


Wow! Post some pics if you can.

By the way, I had mine out for 50 miles last Monday. One sweet bike.


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## FinanceGuy (Sep 23, 2008)

Beautiful frame Richard....I am working on a neo-retro Daccordi that I hope to unveil pretty soon. Just a few nagging details to mop up. I was inspired by your earlier Bernoni project.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

There may still be some of you out there familiar with this thread and the history of my Bertoni and the key role that my great friend Bob Kennedy played in allowing this project to come to fruition.

He passed away this morning at the age of 93. A greater friend and a better man I have never known. The gold "Bob Kennedy" decal on the chrome left chainstay means more now than ever. I'd like to think that the Bertoni is a rolling tribute to a man who made the lives of everyone who knew him a good deal better.

May he never flat and always have a tailwind.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

Richard said:


> There may still be some of you out there familiar with this thread and the history of my Bertoni and the key role that my great friend Bob Kennedy played in allowing this project to come to fruition.
> 
> He passed away this morning at the age of 93. A greater friend and a better man I have never known. The gold "Bob Kennedy" decal on the chrome left chainstay means more now than ever. I'd like to think that the Bertoni is a rolling tribute to a man who made the lives of everyone who knew him a good deal better.
> 
> May he never flat and always have a tailwind.


Been too busy to come back to this--but I was genuinely sorry to read about your friend's passing.

There seems to be a shortage of people capable of spontaneous acts of generosity.


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## bconneraz (Jan 23, 2005)

RIP Bob Kennedy; if you could see what Richard has been up to, you'd be proud. And Richard, thanks for creating the same magic for me. 

BC


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