# No more Vittoria Pave??



## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

So I was looking at the Vittoria website to see what they have for cross cross tires and happened to notice it appears they've revamped things and done away with the Pave. WTF? 

Oh well, I guess I'll just try the Challenge Paris Roubaix. Anyone tried those and have comments? 

By they way if you're up for a good heaping load of good old bike industry marking take a look at Vit's website. They appear to be laying in on pretty thick with the new line of tires and some Graphine stuff or whatever it's called.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

It seems to me that what they now simply call Corsa in 25 and 28mm looks to be the closest to what the 24 and 27mm Pave were. At least from the suppleness vs. durability charts.

The Challenge PR and SB are at the top of the list of my favorite tires. Supple wall thin casing, larger width and file tread make these tires to roll fast while maintaining comfort and grip well on the turns. Grip on wet tarmac is not as good as others (i.e. Conti GP). I have spun them both while standing up climbing. The new PPS2 anti-puncture layer they have added increased their rolling resistance but made the tire more durable. I kinda prefer it, others don't.
Their tread cuts easier than other makes but it is a well calculated compromise so no complaints there. What I found is that lower pressures help against cuts so experiment until you find the lowest pressure that works for you.
First fitting is not as easy as with others. They are handmade and lay totally flat on the rims when new. Very tight fit to say the least and prone to pinch the tubes if not careful. The tire stretches with use however and subsequent fittings become much easier as the tire shapes more like a conventional clincher.
The nominal tire size printed on the sidewalls is understated especially if you use 17c rims. The PR 27mm grows to 29mm right at the first inflation and then gets another mm with use. The SB starts at 32mm and eventually grows to 33mm.
Overall, I give these tires an A+ and if you run them with Latex tubes as I do, you are in for a treat.
If you decide to get them, I'll tell you of what I have found to be the easiest way to initially fit them and without tools. Different method than what they describe in their website.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Well, I don't know which thing I just found out is more disturbing. This on the Paves, or the fact that I have eye lash mites. Thanks for letting that one out of the bag Colbert! ;O


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## Jackhammer (Sep 23, 2014)

dcgriz said:


> It seems to me that what they now simply call Corsa in 25 and *28mm *looks to be the closest to what the 24 and 27mm Pave were. At least from the suppleness vs. durability charts.
> 
> The Challenge PR and SB are in the top of the list of my favorite tires. Supple wall thin casing, larger width and file tread make these tires to roll fast while maintaining comfort and grip well on the turns. Grip on wet tarmac is not as good as others (i.e. Conti GP). I have spun them both while standing up climbing. The new PPS2 anti-puncture layer they have added increased their rolling resistance but made the tire more durable. I kinda prefer it, others don't.
> Their tread cuts easier than other makes but it is a well calculated compromise so no complaints there. What I found is that lower pressures help against cuts so experiment until you find the lowest pressure that works for you.
> ...


The Rubino Pro 28 is 20 grams lighter than the Corsa Anyway the current Rubino Pros are fine and I'm running them at 70 and 80 psi at my weight of 175.

The new ones should be better.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jackhammer said:


> The Rubino Pro 28 is 20 grams lighter than the Corsa Anyway the current Rubino Pros are fine and I'm running them at 70 and 80 psi at my weight of 175.
> 
> The new ones should be better.


I think what set the Pave apart was its suppleness. The Corsa shows to max out at that, the Rubino Pro not so much. Not saying the Rubino is a bad tire, just focused more on longevity as an all-rounder than the new Corsa.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> It seems to me that what they now simply call Corsa in 25 and 28mm looks to be the closest to what the 24 and 27mm Pave were. At least from the suppleness vs. durability charts.
> 
> The Challenge PR and SB......................(snipped).


Thank you.

I also suspect that might be the case with the new Corsa. I saw those charts as well.

I went and ordered a good stock of Pave's but when those are done, if not sooner, I definitely plan to give Challenge a try.

So latex tubes make a difference you think? I used one for a few miles years ago and never bought another because I was riding the bike about every day and too lazy to pump every day. But thinking of trying them again with the CX bike I have on order because that's for gravel and trails and I won't be doing that every day so will need to get the pump out regardless for every use.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

oh and speaking of Challenge I did get the Challenge Almanzo to be used on the more rough gravel roads. I'm really looking forward to riding those roads with the proper bike that takes bigger tires instead of tip toeing though on a road race bike that only takes up to 25mm like I've been doing.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> (snipped)....
> So latex tubes make a difference you think? I used one for a few miles years ago and never bought another because I was riding the bike about every day and too lazy to pump every day. But thinking of trying them again with the CX bike I have on order because that's for gravel and trails and I won't be doing that every day so will need to get the pump out regardless for every use.


I truly believe so if we are to believe that supple casing tires roll faster. I remember reading a few articles on the subject over the years pertaining to the pros and cons over butyl tubes. One article in particular (I dont recall at this moment if it was by Josh Poertner or Tom Anhalt) quantified the gains in rolling resistance to around 5 watts. That's a significant gain for the cost of $10-$14 compared to the 8 watt gain from carbon aero wheels costing 150x that. I often think of this when I see folks rolling on carbon aero wheels with all-round training tires on them.

The other benefit claimed is higher resistance to punctures. I don't have any significant statistical data to document the claim but I feel comfortable saying from personal experience that use of latex tubes does not cause any more punctures over butyl. 

You are well aware of the cons of using latex so I wont repeat them here. I find them being out of favor the greatest con of all because it limits their supply. Vittoria are the only latex tubes I use because Challenge and Michelin have been having their fair share of continuing problems.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

BTW, another choice on the Pave replacement may be the Clement Strada LGG in 25mm or 28mm. I don't have any personal experience with it yet but it is on my periscope. It is claimed to provide a supple ride, durable yet lightweight construction, and puncture-protection belt under the tread. Said to be 120 TPI for the all black casing. I am not certain on how this TPI count is arrived to, however I believe Clement does not play the games others do by counting the number of layers because they do offer a 60 TPI version under the same trade name. Anyway, TPI density by itself without considering the thread diameter does not reveal the whole story as far as casing suppleness goes.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

dcgriz said:


> BTW, another choice on the Pave replacement may be the Clement Strada LGG in 25mm or 28mm. I don't have any personal experience with it yet but it is on my periscope. It is claimed to provide a supple ride, durable yet lightweight construction, and puncture-protection belt under the tread. Said to be 120 TPI for the all black casing. I am not certain on how this TPI count is arrived to, however I believe Clement does not play the games others do by counting the number of layers because they do offer a 60 TPI version under the same trade name. Anyway, TPI density by itself without considering the thread diameter does not reveal the whole story as far as casing suppleness goes.



Some of my friends rave about Clement tires but those they have used are cx type tires.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Jay Strongbow said:


> Some of my friends rave about Clement tires but those they have used are cx type tires.


Same here. Clement has been a brand in dormancy for quite a while having gone through different ownerships. At their website they talk about the Strada LGG inspired by the Criterium Seta. If that description is accurate and not just some marketing hype than I would expect noteworthy performance out of this tire.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

dcgriz said:


> One article in particular (I dont recall at this moment if it was by Josh Poertner or Tom Anhalt) quantified the gains in rolling resistance to around 5 watts. That's a significant gain for the cost of $10-$14 compared to the 8 watt gain from carbon aero wheels costing 150x that. I often think of this when I see folks rolling on carbon aero wheels with all-round training tires on them.
> 
> The other benefit claimed is higher resistance to punctures. I don't have any significant statistical data to document the claim but I feel comfortable saying from personal experience that use of latex tubes does not cause any more punctures over butyl... Vittoria are the only latex tubes I use because Challenge and Michelin have been having their fair share of continuing problems.


I also use Vittoria latex tubes, I like the removable valves and smooth stems. 
If you buy 10 packs from the UK suppliers, they are in the range of $6.60-7.00 each, which is closer to butyl (especially over the counter prices).

Lately I had a few repeat flats on old latex - a well used tubes (maybe 7,000 miles or more with 1 patch).
They had shown up as next day flats - slow leaks overnight after a 35 mile ride. I had one old tube start doing this, so tossed it. Using a new latex tube made the problem go away. 
I don't run sealant, but I'm fairly certain that would have prevented it, these were very small pinhole leaks. Hence the volume buy to replace all older tubes across the bikes and wheelsets.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Yeap. That's where I buy them from as well.

7000 miles out of a tube with 1 patch is better than pretty good!

I have not been using sealant until very recently. However I have been carrying a can of Vittoria Pit Stop with me on my commuter bike because the last thing I want to do on the way to work or back is to fix a flat, which thankfully has been very infrequent considering my daily 20 mile commute. Anyway, about two weeks ago, I had the chance to use it for the first time and it worked!
Simply rotate the flat tire so the stem is on the top of the wheel, insert the canister onto the valve and push to release the latex goo into the tube. It took a few rotations of the tire for the sealant to seal the hole. When I got home, I took the tire off to properly fix it and found a large piece of glass inside the tread. Large enough to cut a good size hole trough the casing as well. That tire was moved into my "use if no other options" bin. Amazingly though the sealant worked! The cons are that Pit Stop or any other sealant like that will dry out in 3-4 months so if you need continuous protection you need to replenish it.

This made me think about possibly running sealant in the tubes of my commuting bike as a preventive rather than reactive measure. I looked into glycol based sealants like the Flat Attack or Specialized Airlock because they neither dry out (one application is good for the life of the tube) nor have chemicals liable of rotting the tube from inside out. Since about two weeks I have been running that bike with 2 oz of Flat Attack in each tube. Did not have the opportunity to test it yet and hopefully I wont any time soon. I would have liked also to report that I was able to sense the extra 2 oz weight in each tire but unfortunately I would have had no idea it was there if I didn't put it in myself.


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## Mackers (Dec 29, 2009)

Clements are made by Tufo these days.

I think I'll pass.


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## WeakSister (Oct 30, 2009)

The Challenge PR is a great tire-- very light, thin casing and tread. I only used it a few times as a front tire on "bad road" road races. It's more supple than the Pave, but I doubt it's anywhere near as durable. It feels delicate. It's also huge --- no rear clearance on either of my 56cm road bikes.

For me, the Pave hits the sweet spot for suppleness and durability.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Mackers said:


> Clements are made by Tufo these days.
> 
> I think I'll pass.


I don't know who makes what for whom anymore. Challenge tires are made in Thailand by the same factory that makes tires for two well known German makes. Panaracer makes the Rivbike tires, Heine's Compass and GB tires and of course their own Panaracer tires that do not share the same performance as the others. 
I find a lot of reviews on the Clement floating around but not a negative one so far to my knowledge. Their X'Plor MSO and USH have been getting stellar reviews consistently. Their Strada Road does not get the same publicity but maybe because is not as well known. Neither endorsing them nor knocking them down; just keeping an open mind for what they are vs. who makes them.


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

I've ridden a pair of Stradas in a 28c, don't waste your time. Supple is not the word I'd use. The Challenge Paris Roubaix would be a better choice.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

60 or 120 TPI on the Clement?
I am a firm believer on the Challenge PR but always look for comparables.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

WeakSister said:


> For me, the Pave hits the sweet spot for suppleness and durability.


That's what I thought too. I used to use Corsas in the summer and Paves in the spring/fall but got to the point I just used Paves full time because they felt as good and were definitely tougher than Corsas.

I spared you guys my full on rant I thought of posing but let's just say I was pretty ticked to learn they were discontinued. Doesn't seem like a smart business move to ditch such an iconic tire either but whatever.


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## rcb78 (Jun 15, 2008)

dcgriz said:


> 60 or 120 TPI on the Clement?
> I am a firm believer on the Challenge PR but always look for comparables.


120, still have one left hanging up in the shop. It was ok, just not open tubular quality. I'd take my oversized Michelin Pro4 (25=29) over the strada in a heartbeat.


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## dcgriz (Feb 13, 2011)

Good to know.
Thanks for the feedback


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## TDI Hoo (Apr 1, 2012)

dcgriz said:


> .........
> If you decide to get them, I'll tell you of what I have found to be the easiest way to initially fit them and without tools. Different method than what they describe in their website.


I bought the Challenge Paris-Roubaix open tubulars and installed them on my Felt Z4 Disc, and they fit just fine. I am curious how you install them. Please post here or message me. I posted how I installed them using the Crank Brothers Speedier tire lever and the Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack here:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/felt/ask-felt-265078-63.html#post5084870


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## bobf (Apr 3, 2015)

Maybe Veloflex? Just wore through a pair of Open Corsa 25s and they were very nice, plenty durable for my purposes. With wide rims (Boyd Altamont) I even manged to get 25mm actual width. Other than sidewall color, I can't tell whether Open Corsas and Open Masters are any different from each other.


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