# Smaller than a 'Banana' bag...



## ispoke (Feb 28, 2005)

Hello folks. My wife and I are considering producing small batches of bicycle seat bags with a classic material (not black nylon!). We have an old Rivendell "Banana" seat bag and are aware that this is a bit of a standard in enthusiast circles. However we feel that for many riders, especially if they have a handlebar bag, that the Banana size is too large for a seat pack.

So I'm writing to ask your opinion on the viability of smaller seat bags. We're in discussions with various manufacturers dealing in waxed canvas (the usual suspects), and also tweed or hemp (with a water resistant backing). The largest bag might be 75% the size of a Banana and sized to carry a 40mm inner tube, small tool pouch, and a wallet. Smaller sizes would be akin to some popular aero-wedges but of course with natural materials and unique features. Do you think there's a market? Thanks for any feedback...


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

I think the market for smaller bags is saturated, hard to break into and very price/value competitive.


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## bikeboy389 (May 4, 2004)

I think it's a possibly interesting item for the retro-mod crowd if you make them out of classic materials like you say.

Trouble is, I don't think that's a very large market, so unless you can get them into Rivendell's catalog or some such thing, you're going to have a hard time reaching your audience.

It sounds a nice idea, but I think you may find it difficult to sell very many of them, unfortunately.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

I probably would purchase something smaller than a banana bag but since I already have one I don't see the need. Even though my bag is hardly filled to capacity. I just don't see the need for another saddle bag.

I am sure you will sell some but, like bikeboy said, unless you have a Rivendell or Velo-Orange to sell them to it will be a pretty tough market to get into.


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## nbrennan (Feb 19, 2007)

this is a problem i've been having... every aesthetically appealing seatbag i come across is gigantic. I want to put a tube, keys, ID, CO2, and maybe some tire levers in it, not my entire workshop. A crown race remover has no place in my seatbag /saddlebag.


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## brianmcg (Oct 12, 2002)

nbrennan said:


> this is a problem i've been having... every aesthetically appealing seatbag i come across is gigantic. I want to put a tube, keys, ID, CO2, and maybe some tire levers in it, not my entire workshop. A crown race remover has no place in my seatbag /saddlebag.


 
But how do you carry your hatchet around. Do you have some kind of holster?
https://www.rivbike.com/webalog/miscellaneous/31377.html


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## bikeboy389 (May 4, 2004)

brianmcg said:


> But how do you carry your hatchet around. Do you have some kind of holster?
> https://www.rivbike.com/webalog/miscellaneous/31377.html


If that's an ass-hatchet, I'm pretty sure it goes on the seatpost. I bought one recently that was labeled San Marco Rolls Due (not the same as a regular Rolls, it turns out).


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

as a labor of love there would be a market, you would sell some... to make money, not enough... smaller bags are dime a dozen, and yet the perfect one still hasn't been made. make something unique- how about a small "bag" holder with an easily removable roll-type pouch?


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## ispoke (Feb 28, 2005)

*labor of love...*



FatTireFred said:


> as a labor of love there would be a market, you would sell some... to make money, not enough... smaller bags are dime a dozen, and yet the perfect one still hasn't been made. make something unique- how about a small "bag" holder with an easily removable roll-type pouch?


Yeah, this is more because we want to contribute to the culture and less about living off the income. I probably won't have time to hammer out code for web sales, however I do hope to wholesale small batches of bags to a few vendors online and show the community some variety. Smaller bags may be dime a dozen, but we're sick of black nylon. Our designs and materials will help fill a niche that I've seen thrive in recent years.

Certain wedge shapes are inevitable in order to taper close to the seatpost where legs/thighs may otherwise rub the bag. I don't think we can ignore that style. But we also have some unique ideas with the "tube" style bag. When I look at those made by Carradice and Brooks (including the "tool roll" you refer to), it appears that they're free to pendulum forwards-and-backwards since they're not fastened to the seat post. Is this a concern?

Since you mentioned it, what type of roll pouch do you imagine? I recall seeing some cheap black leatherette rolls back in the '80's. My reference today is just the square of canvas fabric rolled up (as promoted by Riv). We'd probably make the seat bag, but the buyer would supply their own "roll". But I need to anticipate your dimensions (length and max diameter). What items would you roll up?


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## MB1 (Jan 27, 2004)

ispoke said:


> ...What items would you roll up?


 Each of our bikes has a seat bag with the following;

2 Tubes
2 Tire Levers
1 CO2 Inflator with Cartridge 
1 Spare CO2 Cartridge
1 Small Multi-Tool
1 Patch Kit
$5 in $1 coins

I wouldn't buy a bag that didn't have a bounce free mount and/or less capacity than this.


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

ispoke said:


> Since you mentioned it, what type of roll pouch do you imagine? I recall seeing some cheap black leatherette rolls back in the '80's. My reference today is just the square of canvas fabric rolled up (as promoted by Riv). We'd probably make the seat bag, but the buyer would supply their own "roll". But I need to anticipate your dimensions (length and max diameter). What items would you roll up?




I'm happy to tell you more for a sample, if it comes to fruition. :wink5: 

Think more like manpurse... multi-tool, levers, tube, CO2, wallet or keys. easily opened for access to $ and keys, maybe not a full roll, but secured with no chance of stuff coming out. the manpurse should be small enough to fit in a jersey pocket, so you can take it with you during lunch stops or whatever. could have internal partition for tube or a padded one for cell phone, or even a clear holder on outside for ID /license. would also double as tool kit or organizer (manpurse!) for use with larger bags. couple that with some kind of under saddle manpurse holder in lieu of a saddle bag, something that holds the roll, but the roll is easily removed and replaced for taking it with you on stops... perhaps like an old-skool tubie sack, but shorter and with some kind of closure so it doesn't fall out. you could make it out of duck cloth with leather trim or whatever you want to style it up with.


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## Andy M-S (Feb 3, 2004)

MB1 said:


> Each of our bikes has a seat bag with the following;
> 
> 2 Tubes
> 2 Tire Levers
> ...


I'll add my standard load for reference:

1 tube; 1 patch kit; 1 QuikStik tire lever; small multitool; spare SRAM link. The pump (Zefal) goes on the frame. I'd like to have room for a pair of gloves (to keep grease off the hands) and a bandanna (a place to put small parts) but that's about it. And black nylon goes with just about anything...


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## roadfix (Jun 20, 2006)

I have the Banana Bag and the Carradice Barley........but Jandd's tubular bag in cotton duck and zippered closures would be nice to have too.

Basically, I'm happy with most small saddle bags....I 'collect' saddle bags like my wife collects purses.......I just wished some were made with the materials you suggest.


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## JohnnyChance (Dec 13, 2006)

i always thought that a bag that opened on the side made more sense then from the back. sure, its not symmetrical, but if one side of the bag was the door, then you wouldnt have to empty the entire bag to get the one thing you need, that inevitably ends up at the back of the pouch. plus, if everything was in a roll, it would be easy to just put the roll in from the side, than having to try to "feed" it down the length of the bag.


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

I want a saddlebag that matches the fabric of the Ostrich front rack bag sold by velo-orange, but is small like the Berthoud "sew-up tire bag."

Then I want velo-orange to sell a smaller version of that Ostrich front bag; say the size of the lil' loafer that Riv sells, or the Berthoud mini. 

I think "traditional" bags make a lot of sense. But I don't see why my options in top quality bags are limited to a) something French and leathery and outrageously priced, b) something British and tweedy, c) something Japanese and green and oddly attractive but supersized, or d) something German and waterproof and ugly. 

Bit of a rant, sorry. But that's what I would welcome in a saddlebag.

Edit: Best of luck with your venture, whatever you choose to do.


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## ARP (Mar 7, 2002)

*This past year i bought some motorcycle*



ispoke said:


> Yeah, this is more because we want to contribute to the culture and less about living off the income. I probably won't have time to hammer out code for web sales, however I do hope to wholesale small batches of bags to a few vendors online and show the community some variety. Smaller bags may be dime a dozen, but we're sick of black nylon. Our designs and materials will help fill a niche that I've seen thrive in recent years.
> 
> Certain wedge shapes are inevitable in order to taper close to the seatpost where legs/thighs may otherwise rub the bag. I don't think we can ignore that style. But we also have some unique ideas with the "tube" style bag. When I look at those made by Carradice and Brooks (including the "tool roll" you refer to), it appears that they're free to pendulum forwards-and-backwards since they're not fastened to the seat post. Is this a concern?
> 
> Since you mentioned it, what type of roll pouch do you imagine? I recall seeing some cheap black leatherette rolls back in the '80's. My reference today is just the square of canvas fabric rolled up (as promoted by Riv). We'd probably make the seat bag, but the buyer would supply their own "roll". But I need to anticipate your dimensions (length and max diameter). What items would you roll up?


front tool bags, cheap @ $18 or so. Very stiff black leather, rigged them into rear seat bag. Has a 1/4 turn latch system, just a little too small but they had the swinging front to rear motion so i fabed up a small frame for them to control the motion.


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

Soma kinda does this already.

http://store.somafab.com/hempbags.html


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## nbrennan (Feb 19, 2007)

Soma stuff is nice... i'm all for easily renewable materials, but i want something other than black


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## ispoke (Feb 28, 2005)

*side access*



JohnnyChance said:


> i always thought that a bag that opened on the side made more sense then from the back. sure, its not symmetrical, but if one side of the bag was the door, then you wouldnt have to empty the entire bag to get the one thing you need, that inevitably ends up at the back of the pouch. plus, if everything was in a roll, it would be easy to just put the roll in from the side, than having to try to "feed" it down the length of the bag.


We had similar thoughts, and have a number of sketches of side access seat bags. I'm considering small asymmetries in a number of design areas, since they can result in better layouts. Just want to be cautious and not make something like an Edsel that's so odd looking that it fails to appeal.

One neat thing about side access is that there are two sides...


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## ispoke (Feb 28, 2005)

*fabrics*



fastfullback said:


> ...I think "traditional" bags make a lot of sense. But I don't see why my options in top quality bags are limited to a) something French and leathery and outrageously priced, b) something British and tweedy, c) something Japanese and green and oddly attractive but supersized, or d) something German and waterproof and ugly...


So you're saying that a nice canvas color is your preference? Are those Ostrich bags waxed? Is your objection to the tweed based on the look of the fabric, or just the astronomical price? We're considering various materials including tweeds and hemp, and may resort to a coated nylon liner (inner) to add water resistance. No decisions made, just a hunch for now.

All I know for sure is that we're not intending to make black bags regardless of the material...


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## fastfullback (Feb 9, 2005)

Didn't mean to catch you up in my rant, ispoke. My point of view is that while there seem to be many options out there for well-made canvas/cotton bags, there really aren't that many. Options in color, waxed and/or lined, an external loop, and an internal pocket and/or key loop would be nice. 

Johhny Chance's idea about a side opening is interesting. 

I personally prefer the green of the Ostrich bag as a bit of a departure from the usual.


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## DrRoebuck (May 10, 2004)

MB1 said:


> I wouldn't buy a bag that didn't have a bounce free mount and/or less capacity than this.


By bounce-free do you mean it has a quick-release? I've had trouble finding QR bag mounts that work with the Brookseses. What bag do you have?


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## the Inbred (Feb 28, 2004)

a waxed canvas bag is exactly what i am looking for right now.


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