# New year, same question: What's wrong with TJvG?



## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

This guy either has the world's worst luck or a musette full of excuses. 

TJvG baby, if you're reading this don't fret buddy, I'm a fat accountant and this is the interwebz... where I'm going with this is that it's completely okay for me to criticize your professional achievements. Yeah, I know, I don't make the rules and it's just how it goes. Anyhow, it's just that I see you wearing all these nice timepieces and I hear commentators talking about you not feeling well again, and I'm wondering why you continue to be paid franchise type dollars for zero production? It's bizarre, really. And as bizarre as that is it is still not as bizarre as the tsunami of empathy you illicit from anyone with a heartbeat.... it's like we were all collectively trying to will you over that finish line in 2015. Lesser (or greater?) French dudes were getting sliced like deli meat and hardened warriors were forced to abandon, no love lost there. 
You? We ache, TJvG. What's up?

xoxo


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## ddave12000 (Aug 16, 2013)

It's professional sports. Potential can - though it doesn't always - take you pretty far.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Sorta like...?


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

Because he has potential. However, at some point relying on that to carry you will run out. He is going to have to put up results OR prove he can be a very good domestique to continue at this level. I do like him as a person, he seems like a nice guy that would be fun to hang out with. That doesn't get results, although it does get you fans. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of domestiques out there that have fans as well.


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

We have seen flashes of brilliance from the lad. But I think that the TJ we normally see is the normal TJ. 
The physical potential has always been there, but great athletes in any sport also have the mental game to go with their physical gifts. I think he's a cup and a half short of willpower.


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## n2deep (Mar 23, 2014)

Jeeze,, in professional sports it could be a thousand things,, your team and team mates,, emotional maturity,, injuries,, equipment,,sponsors,, coaches,, drive,, genetics,, timing,, ect,,,. There are thousands of talented athletes who had the skills but did not reach the level of success that "we" expected; Daily, Barkley, etc,,,,,,,


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## Bill Dobie (Jul 22, 2014)

I think the upside of an American hero is what the investors are betting on.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

I hope he can pull out a result this year. It'll be interesting to see how this week goes.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Basically, he needs more sack, IMHO. Lance got by on half a sack...and a little help from his friends.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

He's too soft "mentally" in my opinion. He just lost leadership to Rohan Dennis at Tirreno and probably for the Giro. But he's too much of a poor sport to be a good domestique because he thinks he should be the leader and will never give his all for a teammate. These American racers need to HTFU!


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

you guys are being too rough on the guy

First off never compare any thing to that dick Lance, a proven cheat.

Secondly, TJ could be riding riding too clean, he needs to dope a little like the rest of them

Thirdly, there isn't much "mental" aspect to endurance bicycle. You train all you could, and the rest is physiology. There is very little skills involved, so it's not like you can choke because your nerve cracked.

Forthly, he could be sick and/or unlucky with things, sort of like Chris Horner (lots of potential, but always crashes out and injured).

Having said that, i can't say i know for sure what's going on with TJ either. But his physiology just can't suddenly disappear, unless... he has beeing riding dirty and now he's clean????! lol hope not


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## El Scorcho (Dec 14, 2005)

aclinjury said:


> you guys are being too rough on the guy
> 
> Thirdly, there isn't much "mental" aspect to endurance bicycle. You train all you could, and the rest is physiology. There is very little skills involved, so it's not like you can choke because your nerve cracked.


The mental part has nothing to do with choking, and everything to do with mind over matter. Above comments have referenced a need for more sack, will power or HTFU. All of those are mental.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

aclinjury said:


> Thirdly, there isn't much "mental" aspect to endurance bicycle. You train all you could, and the rest is physiology. There is very little skills involved, so it's not like you can choke because your nerve cracked.


Are you serious? The will to suffer is all mental. You have to be willing to suffer more than others to get a top result.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Stoneman said:


> He's too soft "mentally" in my opinion. These American racers need to HTFU!


I agree 100%. Looking at his results and watching him race, he clearly has the physiology to hang with the top guys, but he seems to lack that instinct to attack or go for the win. When I say stack, I don't mean that he has to attack in the surging type that someone like Contador has. I don't believe he can do that. If you look at someone like Tom Dumoulin, though, that is someone that does race in a similar style to TJVG and he makes it work. He's won stages, and he's placed himself in contention. TJVG seems to just want to sit on wheels and hope that someone cracks without forcing the issue.

I also think that he doesn't seem to WANT it. I think back to the 2015 TDF. He was in great form and I think he was sitting in 3rd. It was the best he has ever looked at the TDF and then he abandons. To this day, there has still been no clear reason why. He's simply said, "I felt off." WTF does hat mean. I wanted to grab him and scream, "This is it, man! This is you're fcuking Super bowl! This is what you've been training all year for. You get on that bike and you ride it. If you don't feel like you have it today, you bide your time and hang on and try to rest and see what tomorrow brings. You don't give up!" I contrast this to Contador, who in 2014 crashed but got back on and continued to ride... he rode for 20K, passing several people while climbing, before reluctantly abandoning the race. Later that day, it was revealed that he had broken a bone in his leg. He had a broken leg and continued to race... and passed people. In the 2015 Giro, Contador crashed and dislocated his shoulder, so badly that he couldn't put on the leader's jersey in the post stage ceremony, but he kept fighting on. He bided his time and managed to stay in pink until the shoulder started to feel better.



aclinjury said:


> Thirdly, there isn't much "mental" aspect to endurance bicycle. You train all you could, and the rest is physiology. There is very little skills involved, so it's not like you can choke because your nerve cracked.


This.... makes me think you've never actually pinned a number on and raced. Obviously, you need to have the fitness and form, but once you're there. The sport is ALL mental. In a TT or on a long climb, its all about using your mind to ignore those thoughts of pain coming from your legs. It is a decision you make, to decide that you continue to push on. If I'm hurting, everyone is hurting and you keep fighting. In a sprint or crit, after you've been fighting hard for many laps, and your heart is racing, its about finding the ability to push harder for that final sprint. It's about having the mental faculties to decide when you're gonna launch your sprint? who do you follow? Your brain seems to be getting less and less blood because your muscles are demanding more and more and you're losing peripheral vision, but you're making the decisions that determine whether or not you might win or lose. Bike racing is like a chess match, after you've starved your body and brain of the ingredients needed to make good decisions.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

TricrossRich, you are correct. There is not one way to win. There are different ways and each rider has to figure it out for himself. You brought up and interesting point about the 2015 Tour and Tejay. I remember that as well and my whole thought was WHAT? Really? This does not sound like a rider who is going to fight for stage race wins let alone GT wins. Truthfully, I'm still shocked Contador could races with a broken leg for as long as he did in 2014. That was just crazy. Also in 2015 Valverde crashed at la Vuelta and hurt his should pretty badly. He couldn't raise that arm at all for 2 days, and basically said he lost the entire 2nd week of the race due to the injury. Yet when he crashed and the team asked what was wrong his response was it's not a broken collarbone I can finish the stage then we'll figure out what's wrong. I'm thinking you might be onto something with the want it badly enough and not willing to suffer to get there.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

TJ never figured out how to spin. Jan Ullrich was the last TDF winner to be a masher. Spinning uses lungs, while mashing uses muscles. A masher has a bad day in the big mountains and they get shelled out the back quickly, which we've seen time after time.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

So, I take it hat TJ is mentally weak? And guys in here are mentally superior? Got it. The internet is full of mentally tough dudes.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

I think Rohan Dennis just wrestled the BMC leadership at the Giro away from TJ with his superior performance at Tirreno.


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## rufus (Feb 3, 2004)

His ears are just not aero enough.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

He'd be a good one for one of these continental teams or whatever. Maybe a stage win a year somewhere or whatever. Get him off of BMC already, cut your losses folks.


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## taxidermy man (Mar 19, 2016)

aclinjury said:


> So, I take it hat TJ is mentally weak? And guys in here are mentally superior? Got it. The internet is full of mentally tough dudes.


I don't think any one said they were superior to TJ, It's a discussion on what could be going on with him...This is a forum to discuss things like that.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

KoroninK said:


> TricrossRich, you are correct. There is not one way to win. There are different ways and each rider has to figure it out for himself. You brought up and interesting point about the 2015 Tour and Tejay. I remember that as well and my whole thought was WHAT? Really? This does not sound like a rider who is going to fight for stage race wins let alone GT wins. Truthfully, I'm still shocked Contador could races with a broken leg for as long as he did in 2014. That was just crazy. Also in 2015 Valverde crashed at la Vuelta and hurt his should pretty badly. He couldn't raise that arm at all for 2 days, and basically said he lost the entire 2nd week of the race due to the injury. Yet when he crashed and the team asked what was wrong his response was it's not a broken collarbone I can finish the stage then we'll figure out what's wrong. I'm thinking you might be onto something with the want it badly enough and not willing to suffer to get there.


Exactly.



aclinjury said:


> So, I take it hat TJ is mentally weak? And guys in here are mentally superior? Got it. The internet is full of mentally tough dudes.


I was waiting for someone to say it.... There's always that person. If you're reasoning was valid, then the only people that make great sports coaches are those that have won championships. Sorry, being able to identify and analyze tactics and strategy to win at sports has nothing to do with the physical abilities required to accomplish those tactics.

maybe he's not mentally weak, maybe he just doesn't want it bad enough.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I like Tejay, but I think he is probably better suited for one week or one day races than he is a three week grand tour (I also thought Tyler Farrar was better suited for classics style one day races than he was for bunch sprinting. He's another guy that had all of the physical talent, but never accomplished what many people expected him to). I also don't think he thrives under the GC leader spotlight. He might be happier and perform better as a #2 or stage hunter, etc.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

Rashadabd said:


> I like Tejay, but I think he is probably better suited for one week or one day races than he is a three week grand tour (I also thought Tyler Farrar was better suited for classics style one day races than he was for bunch sprinting. He's another guy that had all of the physical talent, but never accomplished what many people expected him to). I also don't think he thrives under the GC leader spotlight. He might be happier and perform better as a #2 or stage hunter, etc.


I'm wondering the same thing. Although I don't think it will work at BMC. I think he'll have to go to another team for it to work. I do think he could be a very good domestique. However, even then the whole thing about suffering is a question mark. Is he willing to suffer to get through a stage he doesn't feel right in or is he just going to stop. As we were discussing earlier Contador's trying to finish a stage with a broken leg and Valverde hurting his shoulder pretty badly at la Vuelta in 2015 and finishing the stage having no idea how bad it was. Of course Movistar is having to figure out how to deal with the exact opposite issue when they go to the Tour. Sending Valverde as a domestique without the responsibility or pressure of leadership and he had no clue what he was supposed to do. I'm thinking maybe it's time for a change of scenery for Tejay.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

TricrossRich said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you know that he's weak mentally and lack analytical tactics? How would you know this? Please do tell what sort of tactics he could have used, that the director didn't tell him, that he could have used to prevent from being dropped on a climb?

There are PLENTY of examples throughout the world of sports where a good (not great) athlete come close to winning many contests yet have never won anything. TJ is one of those athletes. That's sports. And I have never considered TJ a top GC contender on the pro tour circuit. Maybe that's why I'm not disappointed.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

MMsRepBike said:


> He'd be a good one for one of these continental teams or whatever. Maybe a stage win a year somewhere or whatever. Get him off of BMC already, cut your losses folks.


I don't know about continental teams... don't you (all y'all, not just you MMs) think he could do well as a "super" domestique? It's been brought up here, but he's a good solid climber, good enough to lead a GC contender well into climbing and other stages. I posted this in other threads... He just seems easily blown up. Last years Giro, Nibali had a stomach bug, pretty bad from what I read later, and he was getting beaten obviously on tough climbs. What he did on 19 and 20 was a thing of sports legend in my mind. Champions. Not going on with a broken leg, but he WON the Tour of Italy! Agree wholeheartedly, BMC, cut your losses.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

BMC is in the lead at Catalunya after the TTT and the relegation of Movistar for pushing. Let's see what TJvG can do with the race lead today.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Stoneman said:


> BMC is in the lead at Catalunya after the TTT and the relegation of Movistar for pushing. Let's see what TJvG can do with the race lead today.


yeah, and apparently Rojas also got fined for pushing too. WTF? I understand the penalty, but a fine? That's some F'ed up rule


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

That is one screwed up rule. All of that for a hand check.

Truthfully I don't see Tejay holding on to the podium even with that lead let alone actually winning. Remember the last time he had the race lead and about a 10 second lead he lost Andalucia to Valverde by around 1minute.


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## JSR (Feb 27, 2006)

KoroninK said:


> All of that for a hand check.


Well, to be fair, it was three hand checks.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

True it was 3 hand checks, but they were still hand checks and not pushes. Still seems to be an overly harsh penalty.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

If Tejay is serious that rules are rules, well he now needs to be DQ for taking his helmet off which has clear DQ penalty. https://twitter.com/jjrojillas/status/844962944882495488


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

KoroninK said:


> If Tejay is serious that rules are rules, well he now needs to be DQ for taking his helmet off which has clear DQ penalty. https://twitter.com/jjrojillas/status/844962944882495488


C'mon, really? I know yo love Valverde and Movistar, but honestly, you're going to equate the two situations? TJ was taking his hat off, the helmet was off for a split second and there was no advantage gained from doing so. What the Movistar team did in the TTT is a clear performance gaining advantage. The hardest thing to do in pace line is to jump back on as the end of the line comes through... with Rojas sitting there, pushing riders into the line, they don't have to expend the extra energy to get on. That makes the whole group faster.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

The problem is Tejay was all over twitter yelling rules are rules and must be followed to the letter. Well here is in direct violation of a rule. Nothing else matters in this case. He is in direct violation of a rule after yelling rules are rules and must be followed to the letter. Makes no difference if there was an advantage gained or not. In his own words, Rules are Rules. So now rules do not apply to Tejay after he claimed rules are rules and must be followed?


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

KoroninK said:


> The problem is Tejay was all over twitter yelling rules are rules and must be followed to the letter. Well here is in direct violation of a rule. Nothing else matters in this case. He is in direct violation of a rule after yelling rules are rules and must be followed to the letter. Makes no difference if there was an advantage gained or not. In his own words, Rules are Rules. So now rules do not apply to Tejay after he claimed rules are rules and must be followed?


I totally get the point you are making. But you can run with your bike in the TDF despite clear rules prohibiting it. Tricrossrich is raising the advantage issue because that's what often gets cited in decisions, albeit, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. There are rules, there are rules that are enforced, there are rules that are ignored, there are rules that get decided situation and rider by situation and rider. And that's that.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

PBL450 said:


> I totally get the point you are making. But you can run with your bike in the TDF despite clear rules prohibiting it. Tricrossrich is raising the advantage issue because that's what often gets cited in decisions, albeit, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. There are rules, there are rules that are enforced, there are rules that are ignored, there are rules that get decided situation and rider by situation and rider. And that's that.


That stage of the TDF still POs me because there are a couple of riders who should have been penalized severly for what they did. Froome and Quintana most specifically and in truth it ended up Mollema who is the only who did nothing wrong who was in reality penalized.

In this specific case my problem is Tejay was screaming Rules are rules so he needs to be penalized for breaking a rule. If he wouldn't have been screaming and crying about it so much, I doubt Rojas posts this video and I doubt anyone pays it any attention. Also because of this the UCI comes off looking even worse than how they handled the penalty to Movistar in the first place. Regardless of rather it's the right penalty or not they way they handled it was completely screwed up and the optics look horrible.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

hmm I like TJ, but screw him. I hate chicken little tweeter. Now i'm hoping his a* will be waxed thoroughly by Valverde


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> I totally get the point you are making. But you can run with your bike in the TDF despite clear rules prohibiting it. Tricrossrich is raising the advantage issue because that's what often gets cited in decisions, albeit, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. There are rules, there are rules that are enforced, there are rules that are ignored, there are rules that get decided situation and rider by situation and rider. And that's that.





KoroninK said:


> That stage of the TDF still POs me because there are a couple of riders who should have been penalized severly for what they did. Froome and Quintana most specifically and in truth it ended up Mollema who is the only who did nothing wrong who was in reality penalized.
> 
> In this specific case my problem is Tejay was screaming Rules are rules so he needs to be penalized for breaking a rule. If he wouldn't have been screaming and crying about it so much, I doubt Rojas posts this video and I doubt anyone pays it any attention. Also because of this the UCI comes off looking even worse than how they handled the penalty to Movistar in the first place. Regardless of rather it's the right penalty or not they way they handled it was completely screwed up and the optics look horrible.


Regarding the running in the TDF last year. It my understanding that there really is no rule against running.... some announcers said it was against the rules, and that immediately caused a knee jerk reaction of people thinking it is against the rules, but the actual rule reads that you have to cross the finish line with your bike.

Regarding this situation in Catalunya, I think its quite telling that there were numerous news articles with journalists citing the fact that Movistar broke the rules and there were no articles citing TJ for breaking the rules... to me, this says that the journalists who cover this sport day in and day out know that every single rider takes their helmet off at some point to move headwear... just like riders go back to the team car and have a sticky bidon every so often. 

either way.. it looks as if TJ pulled his usual stints and lost a bunch of time. He probably had a blister on his finger or something and couldn't ride hard today.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

I will also add that I do think the UCI's second decision was the right one... but I think it's BS that they changed from their initial decision. They made a decision, the should have stuck with that and left it as it was.... but altered the word of the rules so that no team could do it in future races.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

I think the biggest issue here is the way the UCI handled the situation. Making one ruling then changing their mind the following day. Then add in the fact that you had a team and riders whining about it on social media. The entire optics of it where the biggest issue is. Although I guess we've fully proven that we can spot Tejay basically a 1 minute lead and he can't hold it.
However, in some ways the bigger story in this race might just be the young Movistar rider who currently sits in 4th place in GC. His name is Marc Soler and he's a young Spanish rider. He's like 22 years old with a very bright future ahead of him.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Familiar story today:

"and TJVG is out the back, he's being dropped on the climb."


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

Yes TJVG faltered again today finishing 22nd on the decisive stage of Catalunya. More importantly are the riders who finished ahead of him that are also doing the Giro. 

Maybe he's doing a slow buildup like Lance Armstrong used to do in his lead up to the TdF.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

Valderde, in a few kilometers, has turned this thread into a Valverde thread. F*ing amazing. Valverde is a really versatile rider, can hang with the classics men and with the Tour GC boys. Sure he may not be the best in classics nor long stage, but he's definitely an exciting to watch when he's on.

TJ has to feel a little smaller of a man today?


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

KoroninK said:


> I think the biggest issue here is the way the UCI handled the situation. Making one ruling then changing their mind the following day.


I agree with this 100%. I do think that they should have stuck with their first ruling. Changing the ruling just completely undermines that fact that they are supposed to be in charge and gives the impression that they're changing the rules based on the social media interactions of the riders, which I think makes the issue worse.



KoroninK said:


> Then add in the fact that you had a team and riders whining about it on social media. The entire optics of it where the biggest issue is. Although I guess we've fully proven that we can spot Tejay basically a 1 minute lead and he can't hold it.
> However, in some ways the bigger story in this race might just be the young Movistar rider who currently sits in 4th place in GC. His name is Marc Soler and he's a young Spanish rider. He's like 22 years old with a very bright future ahead of him.


Is Soler the mountain bike rider? was he in Paris-Nice also? I feel like I heard something about a young rider that was a former mountain bike rider that was ripping up one of the races 2 weeks ago. Either way, I think its great that there is some young talent coming up as some of the older riders are talking about retiring.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

No, Tejay did that by crying on twitter about the TTT, then not being able to hold onto a minute lead he was spotted. LOL


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

TVG discusses the Giro, demotions, and refocusing:

Q&A: Van Garderen talks about refocusing from Tour to Giro | VeloNews.com


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

This may be controversial - but here goes.

TJ is without doubt a talented and strong cyclist - that's a given.
I think the real problem here is our expectations...and yes, hopes.

Since Lance, we (and by we I mean those of us who are Americans) have been looking for the next great thing. 
The media understand that Americans like winners - they need to be at the top of every sport or, for the most part, they begin to lose interest. This is one reason sports like cycling and soccer face an uphill battle in the U.S. market - the stars are, for the most part, not American.
TV commentators understand this and have tailored their commentary to our wishes - they focus on U.S. riders and try to build expectations to keep us in our seats and glued to the screen.

While he is a very good rider, sportscasters have built up unreasonable expectations for TJ as one of the premier U.S. riders. When he cannot meet these benchmarks, we begin asking "What's wrong with TJ?"

The answer is: Nothing. He is doing the best he can with the talents he has.

The real question is: Are OUR expectations reasonable given TJ's talent and history?


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I actually agree with a lot of what you said LV. However, I actually think Tejay probably still is the premier American male rider. Name another current U.S. male rider that has two top 5 finishes and a young rider's jersey in a grand tour. Maybe Talansky comes close, but he seems to have plateaued as well. Tejay's palmares kills most current U.S. pros. We don't have to like it, but it's fact. There is a young group coming up now that will probably eclipse what he has accomplished, but right now, Tejay is probably still at the top.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that TJ is not the top U.S. rider at this time - I was looking at it more globaly. Yes he is probably the U.S.'s best hope right now, but how does he rate against the best in the business?

He does well, but as other posters have pointed out - that finishing touch often seems to be lacking. Is this due to physical limitations or a lack of mental toughness? I suspect a little of both. But I would argue that winning builds mental toughness and the confidence that no matter how bad things look, you will find a way to win.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

LostViking said:


> Sorry, I did not mean to imply that TJ is not the top U.S. rider at this time - I was looking at it more globaly. Yes he is probably the U.S.'s best hope right now, but how does he rate against the best in the business?
> 
> He does well, but as other posters have pointed out - that finishing touch often seems to be lacking. Is this due to physical limitations or a lack of mental toughness? I suspect a little of both. But I would argue that winning builds mental toughness and the confidence that no matter how bad things look, you will find a way to win.


Agreed.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Rashadabd said:


> TVG discusses the Giro, demotions, and refocusing:
> 
> Q&A: Van Garderen talks about refocusing from Tour to Giro | VeloNews.com


His comments are diplomatic and calculated, if anything.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

I am actually not a huge Tejay or BMC fan (I liked Cadel though), so I can't say I disagree, but my guess is the dude is still coming to grips with some of this. His spot got taken, and even if he can acknowledge that it's mostly his fault that's the case, it's probably a tough adjustment to make and yet he still has a job to do. I bet that's what is behind some of his answers.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

LV, I agree to an extent about the media. Man times the US coverage of cycling annoys the heck out of me for this very reason. They want to focus on the US riders, and more or less ignore many other riders. Then you also get them for the most ignoring Movistar outside of Quintana. Although in that case I wouldn't be surprised if it's the language barrier issue. Eurosport is better when you can watch their coverage, although there are times I've watched races in Spanish because I swear part of the time I'd rather just not understand what is being said instead of getting annoyed with what is being said.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Hey... here's a new article on TJvG.

BMC's Giro hopes riding on van Garderen | VeloNews.com

"BMC's Giro Hopes riding on Van Garderen"... I'm predicting Stage 10 TT, Dennis has a significant margin on TJ and then in Stage 11, TJ cracks and gets dropped and Dennis somehow hangs on to the leaders and becomes the leader of the team... call me a mind reader.


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

TricrossRich said:


> Hey... here's a new article on TJvG.
> 
> BMC's Giro hopes riding on van Garderen | VeloNews.com
> 
> "BMC's Giro Hopes riding on Van Garderen"... I'm predicting Stage 10 TT, Dennis has a significant margin on TJ and then in Stage 11, TJ cracks and gets dropped and Dennis somehow hangs on to the leaders and becomes the leader of the team... call me a mind reader.


I'm not taking the other side of this bet!


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

TricrossRich said:


> Hey... here's a new article on TJvG.
> 
> BMC's Giro hopes riding on van Garderen | VeloNews.com
> 
> "BMC's Giro Hopes riding on Van Garderen"... I'm predicting Stage 10 TT, Dennis has a significant margin on TJ and then in Stage 11, TJ cracks and gets dropped and Dennis somehow hangs on to the leaders and becomes the leader of the team... call me a mind reader.


This scenario would not surprise me.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

TVG says forget the naysayers and distractions, he means business at the Giro:

Van Garderen: I?m not going to the Giro just to take in the scenery | Cyclingnews.com


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

Rashadabd said:


> TVG says forget the naysayers and distractions, he means business at the Giro:
> 
> Van Garderen: I?m not going to the Giro just to take in the scenery | Cyclingnews.com


I just bumped him from my fantasy team and I don't think I'm changing my mind.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Lol, he's not on mine either and I don't see that changing.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

He's not on my team either. As for not going for the scenery is even funnier. I remember when the 2016 Tour route was released and many of the GC riders were talking about great the route was and specific stages, Valverde's comment was: Well there will be some really nice scenery and some great views.


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## Stoneman (Mar 1, 2009)

Ok, so after Stage 9 of the Giro it is readily apparent for all to see that BMC would be wise to pull the plug on promoting TJvG as a GC guy for Grand Tours. He just doesn't have the consistency over 3 weeks and seems to always have bad days that he's never able to recover from.


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## QuiQuaeQuod (Jan 24, 2003)

Stoneman said:


> He just doesn't have the consistency over 3 weeks and seems to always have bad days that he's never able to recover from.


I think this comment would apply to the vast majority of "contenders" in the grand tours over the past umpteen years.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

There are also different levels of bad days and how well/poorly you recover from them.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

tj should now aspire to have a "roman kreuziger" type career, top man in the mountains, well capable of a good week long result--just not a three week GC man. no shame in that at all.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

dnice said:


> tj should now aspire to have a "roman kreuziger" type career, top man in the mountains, well capable of a good week long result--just not a three week GC man. no shame in that at all.


Exactly. 
As was stated in the other thread, Tour of California and week-long races suit him well, 3-week tours not so much...He's an Alpha-domestique and should be in the TdF supporting Porte.
I really had high hopes for him too, especially when he came so close on that Alpe d Huez stage.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

aclinjury said:


> So, I take it hat TJ is mentally weak? And guys in here are mentally superior? Got it. The internet is full of mentally tough dudes.


Frankly, if I listed the athletic things I completed and achieved solely through mental toughness, on top of physical ability, I might come out as mentally superior to TJ. I think this is what some of us see: dude, if I were in your shoes, I would go grab the brass ring.

Especially because he is financially supported to pursue the athletics, while many of us have achieved a lot while holding down a full time job but carrying on athletics as a hobby.

I played at Ultimate Frisbee nationals in Nov 2000 with a torn ACL. I restricted myself to defense points, and only played about 15-20% of points. Still, close to impossible. I told no one - just told them my knee felt funny.

I tore my ACL a month before - at Sectionals. For the month, I did the exercise bike to get in shape since I could not run - until the day before I flew out for Nationals, when I got second place in a local 3-miler.

I then had surgery in March 2001. I took up cycling a couple months later, once cleared by my PT, for recovery, then did my first "century" - biked the Hotter than Hell 100 - in 6 hours, without stopping, that August. I carried 5L of water to make it without stopping.

I had ACL surgery on my other knee in Feb 2005. Six weeks later, I hiked the Grand Canyon down and back in one day. Carrying all the water - several liters - since I knew my wife would not make it if we split water-carrying duty.

These feats required something between "mental toughness" and "utter foolishness."

That is where we want TJ to go, with what he has got.


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## SNS1938 (Aug 9, 2013)

upstateSC-rider said:


> ...He's an Alpha-domestique and should be in the TdF supporting Porte...


Yes!! I thought it was so [email protected] that he's riding the Giro when he could have gone TdF to help Porte. Beating Froome/sky is virtually impossible, and made harder for Porte by not having TJvG there. If BMC aren't going to put everything behind Porte at TdF, then they should have sent Porte to Giro.

If TJ was from any other country, then nobody in America would have this faith in him.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

PJay said:


> Frankly, if I listed the athletic things I completed and achieved solely through mental toughness, on top of physical ability, I might come out as mentally superior to TJ. I think this is what some of us see: dude, if I were in your shoes, I would go grab the brass ring.
> 
> Especially because he is financially supported to pursue the athletics, while many of us have achieved a lot while holding down a full time job but carrying on athletics as a hobby.
> 
> ...


Here's your virtual medal.


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

SNS1938 said:


> Yes!! I thought it was so [email protected] that he's riding the Giro when he could have gone TdF to help Porte. Beating Froome/sky is virtually impossible, and made harder for Porte by not having TJvG there. If BMC aren't going to put everything behind Porte at TdF, then they should have sent Porte to Giro.
> 
> If TJ was from any other country, then nobody in America would have this faith in him.


Yup, totally agree. Porte is the BMCer with the best chance to take a GC + He knows Froomie like few other riders in the peloton - of course that goes both ways - but if anyone can get inside Froomie's head, it's probably Porte.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Van Garderen: 'Maybe I am not a grand tour rider' | VeloNews.com

Here's a good read. He's not making any excuses for himself. Who knows what will happen in the next couple years...


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

Here is the part of that article that bothers me: "I did feel a little bit of a heat stroke on the day before Blockhaus, but I was able to dump some water over my head. I ate and drank, and I felt like I dodged a bullet. Since then, I feel like I can’t really get into the red." I remember an interview with Valverde awhile ago and he was asked about going into the red and recovering. His comment was the best way to recover is make sure you never go into the red in the first place. Ride on your limit sure, but never go past it. One of the stupidest things you can do is go into the red to follow an attack. You must ride at your own pace. Yes you will cede time to the better climbers, but it the only way to limit your losses. Now this may just be something that he specifically does himself and may be a part of why he is such a consistent rider from day to day and race to race, however, there is something to be said for that as well.
I am glad to see he is not making more excuses this time. I truly hope he sits down and reassess what his abilities and skills are and what they are truly best suited to doing. Also think it may be time for a team change for him.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

Here is the comment that bothers me the most of what he said: "I did feel a little bit of a heat stroke on the day before Blockhaus, but I was able to dump some water over my head. I ate and drank, and I felt like I dodged a bullet. Since then, I feel like I can’t really get into the red." I remember an interview with Valverde awhile ago where he was asked something about how to recover after going into the red on a stage. His response was the best and easiest way is to not go into the red in the first place. I do not ever go into the red to follow an attack. If I can't follow it at the time I just ride at my own pace. You are better off riding at your own pace and ceding time, because you can limit your losses that way. If you go into the red you're done. Ride to your limit and ride at your limit, but never go past that. That very well may be one of the reasons he is such a consistent rider. He knows his limits, his skills and knows when to push and when not to. 
I do hope Tejay will sit down and reassess his abilities and skills and truly figure out what those skills are best suited to. I also think a chance of teams might not be a bad idea either.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

This line from the interview bothers me: "I did feel a little bit of a heat stroke on the day before Blockhaus, but I was able to dump some water over my head. I ate and drank, and I felt like I dodged a bullet. Since then, I feel like I can’t really get into the red." Read an interview with Valverde awhile ago where he was asked about how to recover after going into the red and his response was don't go into the red in the first place. He said he never goes into the red because that's a good way to loose time. He knows he's not the best climber and thus it's better to just ride at his own pace and limit his losses. This may have something to do with why he's so consistent.

I hope Tejay will sit down and assess his abilities and skills and figure out what they are best suited to. Also think a change of team might do him some good.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

They could be using different interpretations of 'in the red'. Different coaches and athletes may use different protocols and thus the same terminology may mean something slightly different.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

IMO, TJvG, Dennis, and Porte form a dangerous trio if BMC can figure out how to keep them healthy and get them all on the same page at some point in the season. You throw in guys like Bookwalter, Oss, Roche, De Marchi and some of the young guns they have and I don't understand why they aren't winning more stage races.


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## KoroninK (Aug 9, 2010)

TricrossRich said:


> Is Soler the mountain bike rider? was he in Paris-Nice also? I feel like I heard something about a young rider that was a former mountain bike rider that was ripping up one of the races 2 weeks ago. Either way, I think its great that there is some young talent coming up as some of the older riders are talking about retiring.


I do not think he raced mountain bikes. Movistar has actually been comparing him to Valverde for a couple of years. This is actually his 3rd year with Movistar. They have been being very careful with him. He's 23. He was at Paris-Nice in a support role as well.


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## burgrat (Nov 18, 2005)

Finally some good news for TVG. Happy for him.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

*spoiler*

if there were any questions about his passion and competitiveness, this answers them, no?


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## LostViking (Jul 18, 2008)

Tejay just won a tough stage in the Giro - nice work!


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Good work, TJ. The GC contenders figured out they need to tread water as they protect their positions, with a lot of teamwork holding in GC threats, opening the doors for the other strong riders on the road, including guys like TJ and Pinot.

Rolland may have been up there today if not for the match-burning yesterday.


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## Rashadabd (Sep 17, 2011)

Revenge of the Sith:

2017 Giro d'Italia, stage 18 | VeloNews.com

I think what we have to understand is that the fact that you aren't a top notch GC leader doesn't mean you aren't a pretty good pro. Tejay and Talansky are America's best, period and they are pretty solid overall, period (when healthy). Neither of them may win a grand tour, but they have had solid results in them and great results in one week stage races. That's nothing to hang your head about. Kudos to him.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

dnice said:


> *spoiler*
> 
> if there were any questions about his passion and competitiveness, this answers them, no?


No.

He had a really good day, that's all I can see.

I did cheer for him... but I don't believe in him.

I don't think he has the chops to train properly to be where he's at.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Sigh.


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## cmschmie (Apr 20, 2012)

ehh.....He had a couple mechanicals and at least one crash. Not easy to make up time on the cobbles. 
I'm not sure if he had much team support either to even try to minimize his losses.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

It's just a bummer that he goes in fully as support guy with no pressure, ends up in very good standing (not that it really seems to mean anything this year this early), potentially ends up with GC team leadership early in the day, and ends up where he does by the end of the stage. I get that bad luck played a factor for the whole team but it's so much time to lose with no hills...


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## 9W9W (Apr 5, 2012)

jetdog9 said:


> It's just a bummer that he goes in fully as support guy with no pressure, ends up in very good standing (not that it really seems to mean anything this year this early), potentially ends up with GC team leadership early in the day, and ends up where he does by the end of the stage. I get that bad luck played a factor for the whole team but it's so much time to lose with no hills...


Romain Bardet and his three punctures agree.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

Exactly, right? Sure, many variables including different team support, but a ton of GC guys went down yesterday and didn't lose six minutes. Bardet lost 7 seconds.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

This thread should just be a sticky already...


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