# Food advice for criterium?



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm starting out in Cat 5, and I noticed that I'm more suited for endurance riding than all out efforts over fifty minutes. By the end of the race, I'm only 10% slower than when I started, yet I'm already far behind the main group, since they seem to be giving it full power all the time, and even though they slow down by 20% at the end, they're too far ahead for me to catch. I can keep up with them during the first few minutes, but their pace is just too fast for me to stay with.

Besides the obvious reason of my fitness level being insufficient ...

Is it the pre race food?


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> I'm starting out in Cat 5, and I noticed that I'm more suited for endurance riding than all out efforts over fifty minutes. By the end of the race, I'm only 10% slower than when I started, yet I'm already far behind the main group, since they seem to be giving it full power all the time, and even though they slow down by 20% at the end, they're too far ahead for me to catch. I can keep up with them during the first few minutes, but their pace is just too fast for me to stay with.
> 
> Besides the obvious reason of my fitness level being insufficient ...
> 
> Is it the pre race food?


No, it's not the food. 

It's your training, or lack thereof. And it's your ability to race, or lack thereof. 

But not to fret as there is a learning curve to it just like there is with most things. Keep plugging away, keep training, keep racing. 

And stop analyzing. 10% slower and 20% slower? Has nothing to do with anything. All that matters is you keeping up. No need for any additional analysis paralysis. Just go harder.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

runabike said:


> And stop analyzing. 10% slower and 20% slower? Has nothing to do with anything


Thanks for the encouragement.

The reason for me posting the analysis is kind of funny: I absolutely don't want to crawl across the finish line lap after lap, so I push it up to 22 mph as I go by every lap.

I think I'm too afraid of over exertion during the race, to the point where I have to get off the bike and walk back. So I pace myself to make sure that doesn't happen. But, in doing so, I'm not giving it enough power at critical times.

You're right, in that I need more experience to know how much power to put out at each stage of the race, and at each part of the track. That skill I must learn, and that takes experience.

As one of the commentator said in the post race interview, the leading rider of the series knows the track very well, and knows exactly where to push and where to relax.


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

You need to do intervals, no rides over 60 minutes. Hammer till you puke, rest a minute, and hit it again, and again, and again.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

Do you understand drafting? Do you realize that as soon as you lose the pack and get out of the draft, you're going to be working 20-30% harder justo go the same speed? In other words, you won't catch back on, usually. 

They are almost certainly NOT "giving it full power all the time." They're surging hard at times when someone attacks, and slowing at other times. When it surges, you have to dig deeper and stay on a wheel. If you can't, then you need to work on the fitness. The intervals suggested above are a good way to go.

You're thinking about pacing all wrong. In a time trial, where you're riding alone, you have to control your own pace (but even there your approach is wrong), but in a mass-start race the pace is dictated by the pack. Your object is to keep up, stay in the pack, try to move up if you can. If you fall off the back and can't catch on, it doesn't matter whether you're going 22 mph or 26 or 18 when you cross the finish line each lap -- you're not really in the race any more; you're just doing a solo training ride.



> I can keep up with them during the first few minutes, but their pace is just too fast for me to stay with.


That's it right there: you're not fast enough yet. Keep working on it. But work on the pack skills, too.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Yes, I understand drafting. I'll try my best to stay with the pack. I didn't know how much harder I'd be working once I'm outside the pack. You say 20%. That's a lot of difference.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The track has a 1 km long dirt section.

Racing over that was both mind numbingly scary and fun.

Imagine, with my shoes clipped in, my narrow Tufo tires sliding everywhere on the dried mud, and still pushing hard, with others surging by me on that narrow track ... it gave me quite a high every time I survived that section.


----------



## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Maybe spend some time riding on a gravel road or trail to get over the 'scared of dirt' feeling. Learn how to handle the bike with the tires wiggling a little, it's really not a big deal unless your going around a death defying turn.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

This doesn't sound like a 'criterium' to me.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Ride fast, go in a loop, no car traffic. That's all it is.


----------



## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

What state are you racing out of?


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

How much rest do I need between "ride till you puke" LT-raising type of training? I'm all excited about trying to do it, but I suspect this week I had been over-training myself.



41ants said:


> What state are you racing out of?


Southern California.

This one, in particular: OC Cycling Classic Omnium

This morning's race was the worst: within the first minute, I felt muscle pain. I felt like I had been riding a hundred miles for five straight days, and I just couldn't take it anymore.

I had raced yesterday morning as well, and I rode my bike 10 miles to and from the race yesterday. This morning, I drove the car to the race. That helped some, but not enough.

Before the start, I caught a funny look from one of the organizers sitting in the booth. He gave me a sly smile, probably waiting for me to spill my guts all over the dirt trail part of the track. I didn't fall, and neither did any of the other riders fall, but I didn't go as fast as they did in the dirt track. I was afraid the wheel's spoke nipples would pop from all that pounding. They didn't though. Some riders had heavy duty spokes on their wheels. One guy, not in my race, even rode a Litespeed C1R over the dirt track.

But, enough talk about bicycle mechanics ...

We're here to talk about the proper training so I can hang with a 24mph group for 45 minutes.

The wind on the open air field was strong. There were no structures on the field to block it. I tucked deep down to minimize my frontal area. But still, the tired legs were spent before the half way point of the race. The only thing I could do ... the least I could do, was to give my respect to the organizers and get back up to 22mph as I pass in front of them.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

You're either trolling the hell out of of us or have a really, really odd fixation with completely random and unimportant parts of bike racing.


----------



## 41ants (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm really surprised about your interpretation of the race organizers smile. Hell, hes probably happy to see you committed to compete both days. Have you thought about getting into contact with a coach?


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

41ants said:


> I'm really surprised about your interpretation of the race organizers smile. Hell, hes probably happy to see you committed to compete both days. Have you thought about getting into contact with a coach?


That was just my own interpretation. You guys are too sensitive around here.

When men compete with other men, attitudes change. We don't need to behave like do-gooders in those situations. There's a certain amount of tolerance for these changes in attitude, and perhaps this change is expected. That's what makes us all get out of bed at 6:15AM, cook and eat by 7:15AM, and be warmed up and ready to race on the start line at 8:00AM. That's right, all these other men are looking to give and receive abuse from other men. That's all it is, and we love it. A movie quote comes to mind: "This isn't personal. This is just business."

Yes, I'm planning to either join a club or to get some private coaching.

I had a close look at the Litespeed C1R, and its frame is truly impressive. It was a piece of art.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> That was just my own interpretation. You guys are too sensitive around here.
> 
> When men compete with other men, attitudes change. We don't need to behave like do-gooders in those situations. There's a certain amount of tolerance for these changes in attitude, and perhaps this change is expected. That's what makes us all get out of bed at 6:15AM, cook and eat by 7:15AM, and be warmed up and ready to race on the start line at 8:00AM. That's right, all these other men are looking to give and receive abuse from other men. That's all it is, and we love it. A movie quote comes to mind: "This isn't personal. This is just business."
> 
> ...


Weird. I agree with the bizarre fixations on stuff that doesn't matter. Just a few thoughts...

A) There is a need to behave properly in a bike race, it isn't business. Most everyone you race against has to go to work on Monday. Don't screw around and get people hurt to achieve your goals.
B) You're definitely a noob... 6:15am is late in the racing world. There are plenty of races I've gotten up at 4 or 5am because there's a 7am start time and I had to make a drive to get there.
C) Forget coaching. From the sound of it, you're just not riding enough or at the right intensity. It shouldn't take shelling out cash for training to hang on to a Cat5 race.

Not being a jerk, but it really doesn't seem like you know what you're getting into or how to function in an event.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Guod said:


> Not being a jerk, but it really doesn't seem like you know what you're getting into or how to function in an event.


If I know the subject, I hand out advice. If I don't know the subject, I seek advice. Get it?


----------



## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

To be sufficiently fueled for any bike race or hard ride for that matter, I eat a normal breakfast around 3 hours prior to the start. 1 hour before the start I eat a banana.

I believe this to be fairly standard as far as timing goes.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

woodys737 said:


> a normal breakfast around 3 hours prior to the start. 1 hour before the start I eat a banana.


Thanks for confirming that.

Locally, there is another weekly race series Park 2 Park Racing that starts 6pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays for criteriums.

A late lunch, followed by a banana just prior to the race, should work. But I need to get much faster before I can take part in that series. Maybe I'll go once a month to see if I'm getting closer to those guys' speed.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> That was just my own interpretation. You guys are too sensitive around here.
> 
> When men compete with other men, attitudes change. We don't need to behave like do-gooders in those situations. There's a certain amount of tolerance for these changes in attitude, and perhaps this change is expected. That's what makes us all get out of bed at 6:15AM, cook and eat by 7:15AM, and be warmed up and ready to race on the start line at 8:00AM. That's right, all these other men are looking to give and receive abuse from other men. That's all it is, and we love it. A movie quote comes to mind: "This isn't personal. This is just business."


WTF? 

Getting blown out the back of a race five mins in because you're fixated on a carbon frame, strong spokes, and the race organizer's smile is not "competing". Get real.


----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

Criterium are nowhere near long enough to require a feed. If you eat a normal breakfast when you get up and a banana or gel at least a half hour before, you're fueled. 

You need to listen to the advice you're getting here. It's way more important than the minutia you're thinking about.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

runabike said:


> Getting blown out the back of a race five mins in because you're fixated on a carbon frame, strong spokes, and the race organizer's smile is not "competing". Get real.


All those observations came after my race was over, and I was walking around to see what others were doing. Should I apologize for mentioning them?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> Thanks for confirming that.
> 
> Locally, there is another weekly race series Park 2 Park Racing that starts 6pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays for criteriums.
> 
> A late lunch, followed by a banana just prior to the race, should work. But I need to get much faster before I can take part in that series. Maybe I'll go once a month to see if I'm getting closer to those guys' speed.


I'd try to race at every opportunity because your training doesn't seem to be cutting it. If you race once a weekend and do a tues or thur night crit you can definitely race yourself into being able to keep up. It's pretty hard for many people to train on their own hard enough to just show up and sit in. Experience plays a huge part in this, I'm able to sit in the pack in pretty much any 1/2/3 crit as long as I have reasonable fitness. I won't be attacking repeatedly but I'll be there at the finish. 
You're gonna get dropped, so just ride and wait til they come around again and get back in at the back. It may happen 3 or 4 times the first or second week. Then it'll only happen once. Then you'll be in the whole time. If you go once a month you might never get there. Pay attention to what's going on around you ALL THE TIME. Watch what more experienced racers do, and ask questions. There is plenty of chatter during races, you'll hear about sketchy riders and you can see what they do and learn how to avoid them. 
I wouldn't worry too much about food, just don't be hungry and don't try to race an hour after a big meal. You can fine tune what works for you down the road when you get more experience.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> All those observations came after my race was over, and I was walking around to see what others were doing. Should I apologize for mentioning them?


No, but it's what you seem to be focused on. You're pretty much ignoring the advice given that could help you and only acknowledge the replies that fall in line with what you're already doing.

If you want to get better, you're going to have to change something that you're doing. That something is probably stop worrying about inconsequential minutia and just focus on getting time and intensity in on the bike. Then work on tactics and being in the right place at the right time. As long as you're eating healthy foods with an appropriate amount of calories, you should have plenty of fuel for a short race like that. Maybe a cup of coffee or a banana beforehand. It's not a 80-100mi road race with 10k ft of climbing.

Just focus on the basics and stay sensible. It's just riding your bike.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Guod said:


> No, but it's what you seem to be focused on. *You're pretty much ignoring the advice given that could help you and only acknowledge the replies that fall in line with what you're already doing.*
> 
> If you want to get better, you're going to have to change something that you're doing. That something is probably stop worrying about inconsequential minutia and just focus on getting time and intensity in on the bike. Then work on tactics and being in the right place at the right time. As long as you're eating healthy foods with an appropriate amount of calories, you should have plenty of fuel for a short race like that. Maybe a cup of coffee or a banana beforehand. It's not a 80-100mi road race with 10k ft of climbing.
> 
> Just focus on the basics and stay sensible. It's just riding your bike.


This is really nothing new for the OP...


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> I'd try to race at every opportunity because your training doesn't seem to be cutting it. If you race once a weekend and do a tues or thur night crit you can definitely race yourself into being able to keep up.


This is great insight. Really.

Hence I'll go and do just that.

Your comment about a lot of chatter in the group also matches what I've experienced on the course so far. There would be tidbits of advice or encouragement given to me as the faster riders go by. I appreciated every one of them. By implication, if there's that much chatter going on while they're averaging 24mph, then I suppose this group is quite a fit group of riders. No one seems to be laboring at that pace.

Lately, I've grown tired of waiting for traffic lights while riding on the road. It's just a total waste of my time, and it breaks up my rhythm, so that form of "training" is far from optimal.

If, one day, I manage to catch up to the group and comfortably stay with them, then I'm sure my road riding ability will be much improved as well.

Thus, the obvious conclusion here is that if I can afford the time and money to ride routinely in a crit, then do it, since no other form of training will be as effective as that.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> This is great insight. Really.
> 
> Hence I'll go and do just that.
> 
> ...


Yikes...

I hope you're not meaning you're only going to ride the crits to train and not do any actual road riding anymore. That probably won't work. I don't get the "getting tired of traffic lights" either, you can still train effectively if you obey the law... Lots of people do it.

You seem to enjoy making things difficult. It's very simple. Build a solid base (long steady endurance paced rides), train hard (intervals, hill climbs, etc.), get plenty of rest (recovery rides/off days when you need it). The hard part is race tactics and learning how to maneuver in a field without being "that guy".


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

Definitely pre race food in your case.


----------



## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

> If, one day, I manage to catch up to the group and comfortably stay with them, then I'm sure my road riding ability will be much improved as well.


Your goal should be to stay with the group, not catching up to them.
That means, like others have mentioned, lots of intervals so you can survive all of the surges/accelerations in a typical crit.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> Thus, the obvious conclusion here is that if I can afford the time and money to ride routinely in a crit, then do it, since no other form of training will be as effective as that.


Well that conclusion is blatantly wrong. I know it might surprise you, but getting dropped 5-10 mins in a crit is not training and is a waste of time. You're not getting much training stimulus from such a short effort.

You could actually change your training, but apparently you won't and don't care.
Not sure why you're bothering asking for advice simply to ignore it. Sounds like you're really craving some attention. 

But don't worry. We're all giving you a big smile, too, just for your "efforts".


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

runabike said:


> *Well that conclusion is blatantly wrong*. I know it might surprise you, but getting dropped 5-10 mins in a crit is not training and is a waste of time. You're not getting much training stimulus from such a short effort.
> 
> You could actually change your training, but apparently you won't and don't care.
> Not sure why you're bothering asking for advice simply to ignore it. Sounds like you're really craving some attention.
> ...


You've obviously misunderstood what both I and the OP mean. It is possible for a rider to 
race themselves into shape. In reality it's probably not got very much to do w/ fitness and a lot more to do w/ technique and learning how to suffer when needed but it works. The only way to get fast is to go fast. That's why elite and pro racers motor pace behind a scooter. It works.

That said, I totally agree w/ the second part of your post.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> In reality it's probably not got very much to do w/ fitness and a lot more to do w/ technique and learning how to suffer when needed but it works.


You are spot on about the psychological aspects of the training, by doing the training while doing the race.

Otherwise, how else could I spin up to 22 mph when going past the crowd at the finish line, lap after lap? By slowing down elsewhere? Quite possibly true. The next step is to not slow down so much elsewhere in the lap, which, of course, is easier said than done.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Your goal should be to stay with the group, not catching up to them.
> That means, like others have mentioned, lots of intervals so you can survive all of the surges/accelerations in a typical crit.


Yes, agreed.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

myhui said:


> Yes, I understand drafting.


With all respect, the following statements demonstrate clearly that you don't (or at least, didn't).


> I didn't know how much harder I'd be working once I'm outside the pack. You say 20%. That's a lot of difference.


If you get dropped and managed to catch back on, even once, and you were paying attention, you'd know it from experience. You bust your gut closing a 50-foot gap, 30 seconds of all-out effort, and then as soon as you get behind some wheels it gets so much easier. You can soft-pedal and actually rest.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I have not experienced the effect of drafting as much as you have.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> You are spot on about the psychological aspects of the training, by doing the training while doing the race.
> 
> Otherwise, how else could I spin up to 22 mph when going past the crowd at the finish line, lap after lap? By slowing down elsewhere? Quite possibly true. The next step is to not slow down so much elsewhere in the lap, which, of course, is easier said than done.


I'm beginning to think your fitness might have a ways to go before you can hang in one of these events. If you were rolling around at less then 22mph while still 'trying', that's pretty slow. Everyone throws around numbers but you should easily be able to maintain 20-22mph on the flat by yourself for short periods (10-20mins) of time. 26-28mph is another story, but that should be doable in a big group.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> I'm beginning to think your fitness might have a ways to go before you can hang in one of these events.


That is true too. I can do 22 mph for ten minutes on flats, yes, but this group went off at more than 25 mph at the start of the crit, and I didn't even try to catch them. Now, I realize that was the wrong move. I should have tried my best to catch them.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Sure, change up your nutrition if you want. Buy expensive products or buy the cheap ones. Or just drink water. When you are not racing, go on fast group rides. Go on long rides too. Just keep racing and training. The solution is to just ride more. If you're trolling us with this thread, go outside and ride your bike right now. Again, just ride more.


----------



## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

If you get dropped off the back of a crit, your race is over. You may choose to continue to ride for fitness sake, but you're not in contention anymore. That's just not how its done.

Those guys aren't dropping you because of what or when they eat or what kind of spokes they have or what color their bar tape is. They're doing high intensity intervals during the week so they can hang when the attacks start. As you've discovered, that sometimes happens from the word go. If you aren't willing to do the work, racing is not going to be for you.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> You've obviously misunderstood what both I and the OP mean. It is possible for a rider to
> race themselves into shape..


No, I understood what you said about racing into shape because the OP wasn't training well. 

But then the OP misunderstood that and took it to mean the only way. Which is wrong. And not only is that wrong, but convincing himself that the only way to hang is by racing and trying to hang on longer and longer each week is also a waste of time because his fitness is as such a low level that he can't get a decent enough stimulus. 

All he has to do is go do intervals and hard group rides. Really not complicated. And it's free. And then we don't have to read about getting a big smile from the organizer while he busts a gut trying to gain an imperceptible amount of speed across a start/finish line, as entertaining as that is.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

.....


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> I have not experienced the effect of drafting as much as you have.


Then you need to go find a local group ride and do those for a few weeks and just take a break from "racing" until you get a few more rides under your belt.


----------



## JCavilia (Sep 12, 2005)

myhui said:


> That is true too. I can do 22 mph for ten minutes on flats, yes, but this group went off at more than 25 mph at the start of the crit, and I didn't even try to catch them. Now, I realize that was the wrong move.* I should have tried my best to catch them*.


Better yet, you shouldn't have let them get away in the first place. Again, drafting is crucial. If you can go 22 mph by yourself, you can follow a wheel at 25 mph. But if you lose that draft, catching back on takes way more effort. To catch up, obviously you have to go faster than them. Going 26 mph takes more than 50% more power than 22 mph. That's a huge difference.

So you have to learn to stay in the pack. Inexperienced racers, especially in a crit with its frequent turns, often get squeezed to the back, understandably because it's scary going into turns with all those riders around. Once you're at the back, if you take a turn a little slower you get gapped, you have to sprint to get back on, and after a few laps of that you don't have enough left in the legs, and you're gone.

And once more on how drafting works. The gap doesn't have to be very big. If you're two feet behind that wheel, you're getting a lot of benefit; six feet and it's almost nothing. So you have to pay attention and react immediately if the space starts to grow.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Racing is hard and we're all looking for ways to improve. The good news is that there are all sorts of great things that riders can do to improve race results. There are special wheels and other equipment which can be very expensive. There are special things to eat or drink before, after, or during the rides/races, also pricey. There are intervals on flat stretches and hill repeats. There are many, many ways to get those gains. The bad news is that these gains are peanuts compared to the hardest (and easiest) way for a new racer to improve. 

Early on--when a rider has been racing for less than a year--the best thing is just time in the saddle. It's the hardest because there are no shortcuts. And it's the easiest because it's so simple: Just ride your bike.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I really like how you sprinted past the organizers and crowd on every lap after you got dropped.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> That is true too. I can do 22 mph for ten minutes on flats, yes, but this group went off at more than 25 mph at the start of the crit, and I didn't even try to catch them. Now, I realize that was the wrong move. *I should have tried my best to catch them.*


No...you'll never catch a pack going that fast by yourself. At least not at this point. What you need to do is NOT GET DROPPED. You know the first 10-20mins are going to be really hard, so go to the line hot, not just warm. You should have already done a few short, hard efforts to open your legs up and depending on your age and physiology a warm up that might be as long as your event. You have to be ready to go hard from the gun. Races start fast for a reason, to shed guys like you. And I mean you as in "slower, inexperienced, might get in the way later" kinda guys, not you in particular.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> What you need to do is NOT GET DROPPED. You know the first 10-20mins are going to be really hard, so go to the line hot, not just warm.


Thanks for that. Now I know a lot more than before about how I should approach these races.

I had a bike fitting done this afternoon at Bike Religion Dana Point, CA 92629. My daughter's bike was also adjusted as well. Now I feel I'm more ready than before to race again. I also had a long discussion about cycling techniques with the staff there, and that was enormously helpful.

My goal now is to see how long I can stay in the group, and I hope it becomes longer and longer from race to race.

Nevertheless, the group's acceleration from a standing start really surprised me. They were definitely warmed up.


----------



## RaptorTC (Jul 20, 2012)

myhui said:


> My goal now is to see how long I can stay in the group, and I hope it becomes longer and longer from race to race.


Now you've got it! This is definitely worth doing. 

A bit different of a situation, but this collegiate racing season I went from routinely being on the podium in B's (3/4) to A's (Pro/1/2/3) where got my butt handed to me immediately. My first crit I got dropped and pulled after I got gapped a bit going into a headwind section. My race lasted 12 minutes. The next crit I managed to hang in about a half hour. Collegiate season ended, but then I won my first cat 3 crit once we got back into USAC season. I'd like to think that racing in a field better than me gave me a lot of experience in trying to be as efficient as possible within the field in order to not get dropped.


----------



## Data_God (Oct 9, 2012)

myhui said:


> I have not experienced the effect of drafting as much as you have.


Based upon this statement and some others you have made the assumption that you need to race crits is, at best, questionable. You obviously, by your own admission, don't have any real group riding experience. I suggest you get some. Racing is not for you until you are not a danger to others when riding in close proximity to them.

Also - For what it's worth, Crits and Road Racing are two completely different things. Both have value. But for different reasons. In a Crit it's all about leg speed and dealing with the surges. Road Racing is *usually* all about the Engine and Power to Weight ratio. Most group rides, at least those with experienced riders will be fast enough to test your limits. And learn how to ride in a group and how to draft effectively.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Data_God said:


> Based upon this statement and some others you have made the assumption that you need to race crits is, at best, questionable. You obviously, by your own admission, don't have any real group riding experience. I suggest you get some


I don't like stopping at traffic lights.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> I don't like stopping at traffic lights.


Then continue to get dropped. Also, you NEED the skills and experience you get from riding in a group. It's not just a matter of hanging on, it's safety as well.

We get triathletes at our weekly worlds ride that are super strong, but super sketchy because they pretty much ride alone all the time. If you're not going to work on group etiquette because you hate stopping at lights, then do everyone a favor and don't show up to the crit. You'll end up getting someone hurt.

I'm not sure what your thinking is in all of this in general too. Being successful in a race isn't a matter of "doing x results in a win". There are a lot of factors (group rides and other training included) that go into racing and being good at it.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

myhui said:


> I don't like stopping at traffic lights.


And then you make dumbass statements like this...


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> And then you make dumbass statements like this...


But it might be interesting to see it tubular tape will hold the tires on under car impact.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> I don't like stopping at traffic lights.


Nobody does. Use them to practice the standing start you will experience at the criterium.


----------



## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I'm going to reply using your style.

1) There are many training rides that use loops with no traffic lights, but today I had lentils for lunch.

2) Since you are in Socal you can look at this site: SoCalCycling.com Training Rides - SoCalCycling.com and see a list of rides that you may wish to participate in but the match between Uruguay vs. Italy today was bitter sweet.

3) If you don't like traffic lights, use a trainer, define your zones (power or HR) and train against them but remember the DVM is closed on Sundays.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

arai_speed said:


> I'm going to reply using your style.
> 
> 1) There are many training rides that use loops with no traffic lights, but today I had lentils for lunch.
> 
> ...


Don't forget,

D) Optimal cadence is important, especially when accelerating. One must "stay on top of the gear". This will present a most beneficial feeling to the officials.

Eleventeen) Bike handling skills will help you feel more at ease when rubbing elbows with your fellow warriors. Get comfortable being in close proximity to other riders and sublimate various emissions externally to gain the maximum advantage.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> And then you make dumbass statements like this...


Let's take this to Politics Only.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> Let's take this to Politics Only.


Why? Do you post such stupid things there as well?


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

32and3cross said:


> But it might be interesting to see it tubular tape will hold the tires on under car impact.


 I was wondering the exact same thing...


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

*Things you all told me really helped:
*
Stay in the pack, pedal at a high enough cadence so I can follow the surges, listen to everything around me, watch what others are doing, and draft, draft, draft all the time.

*Things the bike fitter told me really helped:
*
Use my core strength and bend my back to keep the weight as far back as possible on the bike, so as to keep the hands loose. The seat position dialed in by the fitter was perfect. I can spin a lot faster now. I was so surprised by the huge improvement achieved by just 1cm or less seat movement in two dimensions.

*Warm up:
*
Bike Ride Profile | 8 miles near Long Beach | Times and Records | Strava

At 10:00 - 13:20, I was practicing acceleration.

At 15:00 - 24:10, I was practicing drafting behind another rider, experimenting with distance and angle.

*Race:
*
Bike Ride Profile | 16 miles near Long Beach | Times and Records | Strava

I moved my bike right up to the starting line, and followed tight behind a big fast rider as the race began. The acceleration at the start was no longer as brutal as I had thought, not because they are slower this time, but because I had gotten better myself. The first 90 degree corner was taken at 21mph. I was in the lead group during this entire time. I stayed with the pack for 1.5 laps: 00:00 - 6:40. *That was really, really fun*. I can rub elbows with riders next to me, I can sense how hard they're breathing, and I was in sufficiently good spirits to even talk to them while we're all going at 26mph. I was not looking at my computer at all during this time. I only found out our speed after I uploaded the results.

When the Cat 1/2/3 pack came by for the first time, things became chaotic, and I could not find any rider to ride behind. The Cat 1/2/3 riders were fast, but rode in a very tight single file, so I had no space to squeeze in between any of them. I felt like a little puppy with nowhere to go among a field of thoroughbred stallions at a horse track, and yet I was taking on the full wind. The Cat 1/2/3 riders also had a lot to say as they went by, as if this was just a casual social ride (well, this was our first lap, so no one was tired).

After they left, I rode behind a lone slow rider till 18:20, catching my breath, and experimenting with ever tighter drafting distances. The guy in front of me was big, and I could literally not pedal and just coast if I align my body at exactly the right angle to his. I went into a tight tuck, and recovered my strength during this time.

At 19:00, the Cat 1/2/3 pack came by to lap us. I tried to ride with the group, but I didn't last long at their pace. It was hard to draft behind any of them, since they were not riding in a single line or in any other formation. They were swerving left and right, so every one of them was taking on the full wind, yet they were still very fast.

At 21:40 I dropped out of the pack, and rode by myself till 28:20, when I managed to draft behind a faster rider for quite some time. That was the most efficient drafting I had done for the entire race. The rider in front was sufficiently fast, and he rode very steadily, so I pulled my front wheel within one foot of his rear wheel and kept things super steady, in a tight tuck. That helped a lot. I saved a lot of energy.

Finally, at 45:00 I sprinted over the finish line, thinking that the rider I was drafting behind was going to race me.

But, like World Cup Football overtime, the referee decided that it was not the last lap of the race, and we had one more lap to go. But for me, I considered that the end of my race, so I turned off the computer, and rode leisurely one more time around.

My best time today during the race was 4:19 per lap, according to Strava. The all time best is 3:21 per lap.

Bike Ride Profile | 8 miles near Long Beach | Times and Records | Strava


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Great, keep at it. 

I don't really have the time or inclination to go through your data but it sounds like you had an OK night, all things considered. 

Just so you know, drafting someone to the line and then sprinting past them is rather annoying, especially when you have both been lapped several times. Also, if you are experimenting with drafting that can be bothersome too, especially if the guy you are drafting has no idea what you're doing and you have not introduced yourself or talked in the past. I know that if I were warming up and some guy rolled up behind me to see how close he could get I might get annoyed and suddenly grab the brakes. 

You're also going to want to be careful when it comes to jumping in with a field that has lapped you. You do not want to get in the middle. Those guys are faster than you and do not want you screwing up their ride by letting a gap open up in front of you when you get tired (forcing them to sprint around you). So don't try to integrate with them. The protocol here is to jump on the back and stay out of the way. 

Are any of these people your friends? I feel like that is missing from your rides. You might want to be cool with some guys who are around your speed or slightly faster and get comfortable riding with them. The best situation would be a more experienced, patient rider taking you under his wing and teaching you the ropes. 

If that's not available you need to stick with the plan: Ride more (get to 10 hours per week) and stick with the race nights. Listen to what others tell you.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> *Things you all told me really helped:
> *
> Stay in the pack, pedal at a high enough cadence so I can follow the surges, listen to everything around me, watch what others are doing, and draft, draft, draft all the time


You're still missing the most pertinent, useful, effective things you could do:

INTERVALS and GROUP RIDES.

Cadence isn't going to do jack if you can't push a gear big enough to to keep the pace up. And that requires power. Which requires...harder training!

And never try to jump into a paceline of a group that's passing you. You're going to kill someone.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

runabike said:


> You're still missing the most pertinent, useful, effective things you could do:
> 
> INTERVALS and GROUP RIDES.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're gonna get through to the OP. He's pretty much ignored anything useful and instead seems to be operating off of some sort of weird romanticized version of what racing is and what it takes to do it right.

I'm just counting myself lucky he's not going to race in anything near me.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Guod said:


> I'm just counting myself lucky he's not going to race in anything near me.


There was a Category 1 rider on a Ritte bicycle in the race. I didn't obstruct him in any way. No one crashed. No one got mad at anyone else.

You have a romanticized version of how we run races here in SoCal.

California is different. Remember that.


----------



## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Don't forget that the best pre-crit meal should be steak and eggs with a side of crepes covered in berries and two cups of Joe.

That will fuel you like nothing else.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

myhui said:


> There was a Category 1 rider on a Ritte bicycle in the race. I didn't obstruct him in any way. No one crashed. No one got mad at anyone else.
> 
> You have a romanticized version of how we run races here in SoCal.
> 
> California is different. Remember that.


Cali is no different than any other place, there are just more cyclists. I have raced there and back east as well as other places.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> There was a Category 1 rider on a Ritte bicycle in the race. I didn't obstruct him in any way. No one crashed. No one got mad at anyone else.
> 
> You have a romanticized version of how we run races here in SoCal.
> 
> California is different. Remember that.



So you're definitely a troll.. You've got a nice ebb and flow going where you say something completely idiotic but then follow it up with something that seems so naive but is just plausible enough to reel everyone back in. Well played.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> There was a Category 1 rider on a Ritte bicycle in the race. I didn't obstruct him in any way. No one crashed. No one got mad at anyone else.
> 
> You have a romanticized version of how we run races here in SoCal.
> 
> California is different. Remember that.


Uh huh...

Anyway, whether you think Cali is any different or not, the racing is the same and I'm pretty damn positive I'd be a little wary of being in an event with you there.

Saying I have a romanticized idea of how you race there doesn't even make sense. I don't, it's the same racing as here except you're there.

Maybe no one got hurt this time, but you're not really taking anything said to heart. If you continue to ignore the advice that'll help you (and everyone else) out someone will get hurt.


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

myhui said:


> There was a Category 1 rider on a Ritte bicycle in the race. I didn't obstruct him in any way. No one crashed. No one got mad at anyone else.
> 
> You have a romanticized version of how we run races here in SoCal.
> 
> California is different. Remember that.


LOL, I have to hand it to you. You are damn good at this, you are like a black hole, some posters just can't resist, time and time again you reel them in.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

runabike said:


> So you're definitely a troll.. You've got a nice ebb and flow going where you say something completely idiotic but then follow it up with something that seems so naive but is just plausible enough to reel everyone back in. Well played.


Typical in his other threads as well. Having a coherent discussion is like herding cats.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> Don't forget that the best pre-crit meal should be steak and eggs with a side of crepes covered in berries and two cups of Joe.
> 
> That will fuel you like nothing else.


Sure, I'll try it.

But I was well on my way towards a low carbon footprint lifestyle, and then this new hobby happens, and that forced me to throw it all away: drive my sedan to race, spend $10/item at the nearby Whole Foods, drive back home.

It's wonderful for my training, but not so wonderful for the environment or my expenditure.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I can't get this image out of my head, so here goes ... and this is way, way off topic ... but it is cute.

I'm one of these:

Shiba Inu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia










I really don't bite. Truly, I don't bite.

The Cat 1/2/3 riders are one of these:

California Chrome Wins The San Felipe Stakes Editorial Photography - Image: 39142647


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

tlg said:


> Typical in his other threads as well. Having a coherent discussion is like herding cats.


I'm coherent, except I'm coherent on multiple frequencies at once.


----------



## mikerp (Jul 24, 2011)

myhui said:


> I can't get this image out of my head, so here goes ... and this is way, way off topic ... but it is cute.
> 
> I'm one of these:
> 
> ...


I keep getting this image of you.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

mikerp said:


> I keep getting this image of you.
> View attachment 297199


I don't like fishing, because it is cruel to the fish. But my daughter loves sushi, so I have to be flexible and go with the flow.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

The Cat 1 rider had one of these painted primer gray, with a lot of dust on the frame. It reminded me of the 50's muscle cars painted primer gray with zero chrome. It was both intimidating and very, very cool.

Vlaanderen | Ritte Bicycles


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

runabike said:


> So you're definitely a troll.. You've got a nice ebb and flow going where you say something completely idiotic but then follow it up with something that seems so naive but is just plausible enough to reel everyone back in. Well played.


Serious or troll, his strava indicates that he has plenty of room to improve as a cyclist.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> drive my sedan to race, spend $10/item at the nearby Whole Foods, drive back home.


Why not ride to the race and bring some food in your jersey? 

And do some hills. According to your strava, your biggest climb is 419 feet.


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> Why not ride to the race and bring some food in your jersey?
> 
> And do some hills. According to your strava, your biggest climb is 419 feet.


How is that possible? I can find climbs like that in the midwest.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Why not ride to the race and bring some food in your jersey?
> 
> And do some hills. According to your strava, your biggest climb is 419 feet.


Yes, you are right. All of that is desirable. But I lack the time to do that right now. I have a day job on those Tuesdays and Thursdays race days.

Here is the 96 mile ride I did with L.A. Wheelmen:

Bike Ride Profile | 98 miles near Torrance | Times and Records | Strava

I didn't have my riding position dialed in, and I carried my lunch with me in a big thermos in my back pack. But I still managed to pull a consistent 17 mph from sea level to the 419 feet that you saw. Look at the 45 mile to 50 mile points. I should be able to do better now. When riding southbound on Pacific Coast Highway, at the 22 to 26 miles points, I managed a constant 20 mph. I thought I was fast when I passed everyone on that day, but if I check the segment times on that route, I'm obviously, way, way, way too slow. Hey, I know I'm slow.

I had a recent illness which saw my weight drop from 168 to 158 lbs in a week. I thought, wow, that's one of several ways to lose weight! But the flip side is that my fitness level also took a dive. The ride shown above is before that illness.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> Yes, you are right. All of that is desirable. But I lack the time to do that right now. I have a day job on those Tuesdays and Thursdays race days.
> 
> Here is the 96 mile ride I did with L.A. Wheelmen:
> 
> ...


The Strava suggests you're not entirely making this up just to troll.... Maybe...

I work 50hr weeks and train 12-15hrs a week. It can be done. You're barely riding at all. That's the biggest thing you need to fix.

Also, 9hrs on the bike in one day and you don't even break 100mi is crazy... Especially when you did it all without climbing anything significant.

Put a lot more time and effort in and then hit up some more races. Granted getting sick and dropping weight like that is not good, but it's a minor hiccup in your ambitions to get stronger considering you're not really training in the first place.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> Yes, you are right. All of that is desirable. But I lack the time to do that right now. I have a day job on those Tuesdays and Thursdays race days.
> 
> Here is the 96 mile ride I did with L.A. Wheelmen:
> 
> ...


I'm not motivated to examine your data. 

But I will say that you have all of the tools necessary to improve as a cyclist. Do some intervals as others have suggested. Climb hills when you can. Spend a lot of time in the saddle and befriend experienced racers so you can learn the etiquette. 

Ultimately you will need to drop the excuses and ride more. On the other hand, if your excuses are all valid then maybe racing bikes is not for you.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Do some intervals as others have suggested. Climb hills when you can. Spend a lot of time in the saddle and befriend experienced racers so you can learn the etiquette.


On days when I have to miss the race, or when this race series ends at the end of summer, I'll revert to what you suggested. Thank you for those suggestions.

But, as _cxwrench_ said earlier, why not go racing to learn to race and to get fit? All those naysayers about not wanting to ride with me because I'm a big fat rabbit who'll crash into them are the true trolls. They have nothing to contribute.

Riding on streets on a commuter basis twice daily is not useful as a training tool as long as I'm attending the Tuesday and Thursday evening races. Those are forced training sessions, guaranteed at 100% exertion level, and guaranteed to last at least 45 minutes. At $15/race, I now have a $30/week habit, plus the gasoline cost to go there and back. But those sessions are a lot more fun than the $100/year gym membership I used to have. Those were boring sessions in the gym.

There is also the spiritual side of crit races that I now understand much better. This is something that some of you have mentioned earlier on this thread, and it's the same thing the bike fitter told me.

While riding in the crit race, your mind is 100% on how the race is proceeding, and you place 100% trust on your bicycle and how you handle it. The bicycle must be a natural extension of your body. You should not ever have to think about your bicycle's mechanics while riding. If you do, you're not concentrating enough on the race, and by extension, you're not serious about the race at that time.​
Hence, that is why some of you pounced on me when I mentioned bicycle mechanical tidbits on this thread. You were right to do that. Racing is about riding a bicycle. We can talk about mechanics of a bicycle elsewhere (and I certainly do a lot of that, as you no doubt can see).


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Yeah sure keep racing too. Keep riding and racing. Do it all. Spend as much time as you can on the bike.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

This hobby is getting more and more expensive by the minute. :nonod:

(and, to bring this thread back full circle ...)

I just ordered some Louis Garneau LG1 Recovery Drink.

I see lots of racers drink energy gel packs before a race.

I refuse to do that, but I'm a firm believer in a quick recovery, so I'll drink the LG1 Recovery Drink during and after a race. I'll spike my water bottle with that, and then drink the rest after the race.

All the books say that what you eat after the event is very important, and you must eat ASAP after the event. Last time around, I drove over to Whole Foods to buy my recovery food. That won't need to happen again, not that I've got anything against Whole Foods.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Great, enjoy your drink!

It may help but the gains you see from supplements cannot compare to what you will see once you start riding more than 8 hours a week.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Great, enjoy your drink!
> 
> It may help but the gains you see from supplements cannot compare to what you will see once you start riding more than 8 hours a week.


I am solving a specific problem I have by using that drink. If I haven't recovered, I cannot go out and ride again. My problem is that I recover too slowly. The proper solution is to make the recovery foods shown in all the popular sports nutrition books ahead of time so I can eat that right after the race. Long term, that ought to be the correct solution. The quick and easy solution, short term, is to use that drink.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> I am solving a specific problem I have by using that drink. If I haven't recovered, I cannot go out and ride again. My problem is that I recover too slowly. The proper solution is to make the recovery foods shown in all the popular sports nutrition books ahead of time so I can eat that right after the race. Long term, that ought to be the correct solution. The quick and easy solution, short term, is to use that drink.


Hopefully the drink helps you recover and you can ride several days per week.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Do you have a diagnosed medical condition? How may days can you ride every week?


I can cruise the beach boardwalks three times a day. I can go 100% on a 50 minute criterium once every two days.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

What I meant was if you're close...meaning you have good base fitness and have been riding a decent amount every week and just need to fine tune the top end, you can do that by racing 1-2 times a week. 
At your current level this probably isn't possible. Like everyone else here has said, there is a lot to racing a bike. Fitness, experience, learning the etiquette, knowing your competition, learning how to suffer...they all play a part.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Guod said:


> Also, 9hrs on the bike in one day and you don't even break 100mi is crazy... Especially when you did it all without climbing anything significant.


Yea and he had 2-1/2hrs of non moving time. 



myhui said:


> But, as _cxwrench_ said earlier, why not go racing to learn to race and to get fit? All those naysayers about not wanting to ride with me because I'm a big fat rabbit who'll crash into them are the true trolls. They have nothing to contribute.


Most asinine statement I've seen in a long time. If you don't have skills to ride in a group, then racing in a group is just plain dangerous. 



Local Hero said:


> It may help but the gains you see from supplements cannot compare to what you will see once you start riding more than 8 hours a week.


According to Strava, his Avg Time / Week is 2h 58m. He's got a LONG way to go to just reach 8hr


----------



## Data_God (Oct 9, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Serious or troll, his strava indicates that he has plenty of room to improve as a cyclist.


Care to share the link to Strava for him ? Personally I'd love to view his *perfomance* Data. I need a laugh.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Data_God said:


> Care to share the link to Strava for him ? Personally I'd love to view his *perfomance* Data. I need a laugh.


Scroll up. Post #80


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> What I meant was if you're close...meaning you have good base fitness and have been riding a decent amount every week and just need to fine tune the top end, you can do that by racing 1-2 times a week.
> At your current level this probably isn't possible.


OK, so I need to train outside of races in order to be good enough to hang with the group in a race. Sure, that's good advice, and that matches what I said earlier, about training away from races, and only go do a race once a month.

But I feel that I'm getting pretty close to be able to hang with the group now, for at least half the race. If the rest of you fear that that's still not good enough for me to be in the race, then you simply don't know our local situation very well.

I stopped tracking all my rides and uploading everything to Strava long ago. Notice how there are many days when nothing happens? That's because I don't bother with either tracking or uploading.

"Past performance does not indicate future potential." Hence just look at my last entry in Strava.


----------



## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

myhui said:


> ...
> But I feel that I'm getting pretty close to be able to hang with the group now, for at least half the race. If the rest of you fear that that's still not good enough for me to be in the race, then you simply don't know our local situation very well.
> 
> ...


What is the local situation with Socal crit racing?


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> What is the local situation with Socal crit racing?


I saw at least ten riders were slower than me in the race, for at least the first half of the race. This is a mixed category race, where the only thing separating Cat 1 from Cat 5 riders is half a lap at the start.

Take, for example, the two riders that I drafted behind for several minutes each. Both were at a pace where I could have exchanged places with them and kept the same speed. Thus, all three of us are good enough to be in the race.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm latecomer to this thread.

But I'm in OC, and I know Irvine Great Park. That new 1km dirt section they put in is complete bs. It's not atypical to see 3-4 flats in one 55-min session. I have no idea why they do that. Ok enough of my rant.

24mph average is completely trainable for you. If you can hold 21 mph average by yourself for an hour, then 24 mph average is no problem in a pack. What is the problem for you is your upper-end 30sec to 1min power. For this, you will need intervals. 

But if you're close to the Irvine area, there are great training spots to improve your intervals.

- every Tuesday night starting around 5 pm, there is a mock crit at Skypark Circle, where they just go round and round a 1mile circle, nonstop. There will be all sort of riders here, but the fast group are fast, faster than the cat5 guys. So go here, and join in the fun. If you get dropped, and you will, just wait for them to come around.

- then there is Orchard Hills in Irvine. This is one of best interval workout spot. It has continuous stretch of 3% uphill road that is about 2/3 mile long. An interval of such is around 3.5 - 4 minutes. This is where people come to do big-ring, seated, low cadence, power climb. Do this for 1 hr, counting including warmup time. At the end of an hour, your legs should burning with lactate. Park at Settlers Park. I come here on Tuesday evening a lot to do intervals. It's fun!

- then there's also Portola road with its 1mile, 3% road. This is also a nice spot to work on power interval. But I don't like Portola due to the cars. Orchard Hills is much safer.

- then there's a ride by A Road Bike 4 You every Wednesday night. There will be some wicked fast riders, and some intermediate riders, on this ride. I haven't done it, but it's also a popular ride. Look up ARB4U to see their schedules.

Personally, I much prefer to train on the trainer for steady-state, then hit Orchard Hills for intervals, then a long endurance/climbing ride on the weekend. To me, this provides a higher quality training than just riding with a group all the time, but I'm more of an endurance guy than a crit guy


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

aclinjury said:


> But I'm in OC, and I know Irvine Great Park. That new 1km dirt section they put in is complete bs. It's not atypical to see 3-4 flats in one 55-min session. I have no idea why they do that. Ok enough of my rant.
> ...
> But if you're close to the Irvine area, there are great training spots to improve your intervals.


Thank you for that great info. I'll try Skypark Circle next Tuesday.

I must say though, in terms of a great racing environment, the Park 2 Park Racing Series's second location, in El Dorado Park, Long Beach, is wonderful. It is in the northern half of the park, and the cars are completely blocked off during the race. There is some tree shade, there is grass beside the track, and the track is just the right width. The park looks very green, and that makes it very comfortable for bike riding and racing.

What some of you don't realize is that being in a true race environment, of riding in the pack, is a lot of fun. If I can even just barely hang on, I'll do whatever I can to join that race.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Here is my kit. I'll see you out at the races.

Louis Garneau white top, black and yellow bottom. Yellowjersey.org sticker. Farsports tubular wheels. Tufo tires. SRAM Red 2012 gruppo. Paradigm XXX saddle. Giro fluorescence colored helmet. Prescription goggles.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Great. 

I've read a few of your posts that seem to say you are incapable of racing *and* training. Is this true? 

Racing is great for fitness. Training outside of the race environment is also crucial. You really need to do both. At the very least you should put in a long ride on the weekends, in addition to the races twice a week.

Stick with it and I'm sure eventually you'll be able to keep up with the other beginners.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> I've read a few of your posts that seem to say you are incapable of racing *and* training. Is this true?


Well, that's exaggerating it, but isn't racing more fun than training? That's why I absolutely loved the Wolf Pack races held pre dawn before the Los Angeles Marathon, on the same course, because it gives me the best adrenalin high I've ever felt while riding a bike. The only part I missed is to get completely sloshed the night before, and stagger out of the bar to ride. I'm too old for that, but I do recognize that it would be even more fun.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> Take, for example, the two riders that I drafted behind for several minutes each. Both were at a pace where I could have exchanged places with them and kept the same speed. Thus, all three of us are good enough to be in the race.


It sounds as though you are learning to draft. Great! Unfortunately it is not particularly sportsmanlike to sit on as others do all of the work. 

Since working is hard, maybe it is best for you to sit on and wheelsuck until you improve. In the future--once you are strong enough--you should try rotate through and take a pull.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> Well, that's exaggerating it, but isn't racing more fun than training? That's why I absolutely loved the Wolf Pack races held pre dawn before the Los Angeles Marathon, on the same course, because it gives me the best adrenalin high I've ever felt while riding a bike. The only part I missed is to get completely sloshed the night before, and stagger out of the bar to ride. I'm *too old* for that, but I do recognize that it would be even more fun.


Too old?

I've gotten the impression that you're about 10 years old from the responses you've given. You're impulsive and you seem to lack any understanding of hard work.

Racing is more fun than training (sometimes), but you CAN'T race unless you train. I have no idea why you don't get this. Maybe being beaten with a baseball bat that has "do hill repeats and intervals!" written on it would help... I dunno... I'd offer, but I don't live anywhere near you (thankfully).


----------



## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

Guod said:


> Racing is more fun than training (sometimes), but you CAN'T race unless you train. I have no idea why you don't get this. Maybe being beaten with a baseball bat that has "do hill repeats and intervals!" written on it would help... I dunno... I'd offer, but I don't live anywhere near you (thankfully).


I've gotten the impression that he is interested in everything (the grass at the park, his kit, his wheels and helmet) except improvement.


----------



## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

If you're interest is mainly being able to keep up with the pack in a crit, then my man... work on your intervals, and that's pretty much all you'll need to finish in a crit as a midpacker. You don't even need to be good at climbing. You don't even need to put in those long weekend mountain rides. Work on building a great good 30sec and 1min interval, I guarantee the only way you'll get dropped is you get a flat or you crash. But if you want to be a good all around rider, gotta hit the local mountains like GMR or Crystal Lake. It's on the mountains that the men keep chugging and the boys will falter. Weaknesses are easily and immediately exposed on the mountains.


----------



## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

myhui said:


> ...but isn't racing more fun than training?...


But isn't more fun to stay with the group and vie for position than get spit out the back in the first few minutes?


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

arai_speed said:


> But isn't more fun to stay with the group and vie for position than get spit out the back in the first few minutes?


Precisely. He doesn't seem to get that getting dropped 5 mins in is neither racing NOR effective training. It's just a waste of time.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> What some of you don't realize is that being in a true race environment, of riding in the pack, is a lot of fun. If I can even just barely hang on, I'll do whatever I can to join that race.


You're talking to a bunch of people who actually know how to race...


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

runabike said:


> You're talking to a bunch of people who actually know how to race...


You did catch all the weird crap about trees and grass, right? There is a possibility the OP has some sort of condition... Either that, or he's in the running for Most Entertaining Troll. I'd at least give him an honorable mention for creativity. This has been one of the stranger posts (Gerry Hull notwithstanding) and he never breaks character!


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

Guod said:


> Either that, or he's in the running for Most Entertaining Troll. I'd at least give him an honorable mention for creativity. This has been one of the stranger posts (Gerry Hull notwithstanding) and he never breaks character!


It's fantastic. I love this thread.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

runabike said:


> It's fantastic. I love this thread.


What's there to love?


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> What's there to love?


From your posts I can tell you have potential. But what is potential but an indication of what *could* be? You still have so much to learn. 

Start with this thread: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/general-cycling-discussion/nutritional-plan-spin-class-287244.html


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> What's there to love?


Your incompetence and obliviousness. And randomness.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

runabike said:


> Your incompetence and obliviousness. And randomness.


Don't forget creativity. Not everyone can make up stuff like this!


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Start with this thread: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/general-cycling-discussion/nutritional-plan-spin-class-287244.html


I'm reading, thank you.

I also appreciate the input here. A poster very early in the thread indicated that the best time to eat, and I mean eat big (the poster didn't say that ... that part I'm adding), is 3 hours before the event.

From riding in a few "races" in the past week, I can say that the 3 hour time is spot-on.

Yesterday's "race" was the best I'd ever done on the Great Park course, a wide open desolate space on a former airfield. I stayed with the pack for 2.25 laps. Then I felt stomach hunger, and my breathing became too quick, so the cardio was the limiting factor that time. I had to drop at that point, since physically I was maxed out. Well, on that day, even though I had the best food, I didn't eat the right amount of food, nor at the right time.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> Don't forget creativity. Not everyone can make up stuff like this!


I had to ask my daughter for that special breed of dog.


----------



## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

myhui said:


> I'm reading, thank you.
> 
> I also appreciate the input here. A poster very early in the thread indicated that the best time to eat, and I mean eat big (the poster didn't say that ... that part I'm adding), is 3 hours before the event.
> 
> ...


I could see how that would happen. 2.25 laps into a hard effort and the hunger pang kicks in...at that point I suggest you pull over, eat a gel or two, maybe a cheese stick for protein, then jump back into it and enjoy the openness of the airfield and possibly ponder how many flights it sustained and the people that built it.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> at that point I suggest you pull over, eat a gel or two, maybe a cheese stick for protein, then jump back into it and enjoy the openness of the airfield and possibly ponder how many flights it sustained and the people that built it.


That option wasn't open to me, so I caught another rider's draft and stayed behind him for more than a lap. He was going quite fast: 21mph average, heading straight into the strong wind (this is an airfield, so no escape at all from the wind). Then the most embarrassing thing happened: I couldn't follow after a few laps, and dropped down further. The rest I rode by myself. If I had eaten at the right time, it would have given me maybe a 25% improvement.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> I'm reading, thank you.
> 
> I also appreciate the input here. A poster very early in the thread indicated that the best time to eat, and I mean eat big (the poster didn't say that ... that part I'm adding), is 3 hours before the event.
> 
> ...


You obviously have a unique metabolism. I would recommend putting a quart of ice cream (preferably Extreme Moose Tracks) in your jersey pocket to help your hunger pangs. It will provide a quick boost of sugar and also supply protein to help recovery. It will also help with bone density for at least the next few laps due to the fact that it contains calcium.

For your breathing quickness, I'd say Lamaze techniques would be extremely helpful. I'm sure there is a local class (no stop lights involved!) that you could get into despite the unique situation in California.

With these two simple tricks, you'll be admiring the skill with which ants have built colonies out in the airfield in no time! An admirable pace of 23mph might even be possible!


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Nose strips may do me wonders, just like they did for California Chrome.

One day, I'll morph from a cute little ankle biter to a thoroughbred.

Stud farm sounds like a grand retirement idea.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> That option wasn't open to me, so I caught another rider's draft and stayed behind him for more than a lap. He was going quite fast: 21mph average, heading straight into the strong wind (this is an airfield, so no escape at all from the wind). Then the most embarrassing thing happened: I couldn't follow after a few laps, and dropped down further. The rest I rode by myself.


Were you able to salvage a moral victory and sprint past the promoters?


----------



## spade2you (May 12, 2009)

myhui said:


> What's there to love?


Less trolling. More riding.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Were you able to salvage a moral victory and sprint past the promoters?


I managed 23.3mph at the finish line. I was 100% out of gas: painful stomach, breathing rate at maximum, but muscles weren't hurting, so I think I have a cardio limit, not LT limit.


Great Park Crit Standard Course:

Bike Ride Profile | 43 miles near Long Beach | Times and Records | Strava

I'm down in 422th place with a 6:23 time. Best time is 5:09.


My ride:

Bike Ride Profile | 43 miles near Long Beach | Times and Records | Strava

Starts at 47:12:47. I only stayed with the group for 1.25 laps, not the 2.25 laps I said earlier.

That first lap was actually a warm up lap, and not counted as the official race. Then they sped up from 22mph to 26mph as they cross the finish line, and I was wiped out.

All corners were taken at > 22mph on that first lap, in the midst of the pack. My hands were 6 inches away from other rider's hands throughout those corners.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

spade2you said:


> Less trolling. More riding.


Yup. Will do that for sure.


----------



## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

Guod said:


> You obviously have a unique metabolism. I would recommend putting a quart of ice cream (preferably Extreme Moose Tracks) in your jersey pocket to help your hunger pangs. It will provide a quick boost of sugar and also supply protein to help recovery. It will also help with bone density for at least the next few laps due to the fact that it contains calcium.
> 
> For your breathing quickness, I'd say Lamaze techniques would be extremely helpful. I'm sure there is a local class (no stop lights involved!) that you could get into despite the unique situation in California.
> 
> With these two simple tricks, you'll be admiring the skill with which ants have built colonies out in the airfield in no time! An admirable pace of 23mph might even be possible!


I love Moose Tracks, I have some in the freezer now. Excellent advice on breathing techniques as well, the could be groundbreaking info for the OP's racing career.


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Guod said:


> You obviously have a unique metabolism. I would recommend putting a quart of ice cream (preferably Extreme Moose Tracks)


Do moose make good tracks?


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> All corners were taken at > 22mph on that first lap, in the midst of the pack. My hands were 6 inches away from other rider's hands throughout those corners.


Next time hold hands.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Local Hero said:


> Next time hold hands.


Or peddle something ...


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> Or peddle something ...


Pedal?

Spelling and context are so important.

For example, if I typed "personal lubricant", you'd think sex or masturbation.

But, if it were "personnel lubricant", you might think I was weird.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

myhui said:


> That option wasn't open to me, so I caught another rider's draft and stayed behind him for more than a lap. He was going quite fast: 21mph average, heading straight into the strong wind (this is an airfield, so no escape at all from the wind). Then the most embarrassing thing happened: I couldn't follow after a few laps, and dropped down further. The rest I rode by myself. If I had eaten at the right time, it would have given me maybe a 25% improvement.


This just makes no physiological sense? I'm very sorry, I don't mean to be nasty... But this makes no sense at all. How long is the race in minutes? Did you fast for 24 hours prior or something? Dehydrate? You estimate a 25% improvement from timing nutritional input? Again, I don't mean to be snarky... But what science are you employing? That makes NO sense. Perhaps it's true that your body, and we are all different, behaves in a way that supports this thesis... Perhaps. But those odds are so slim I would bet my paycheck against them. More likely, your body behaves like most other bodies... You have some great paces going on, listen to the advise here and work on that, don't worry about this weird obsession with food.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> If I had eaten at the right time, it would have given me maybe a 25% improvement.


25%? Do you think this is applicable to everyone?

Say if I learned to corner while sitting on my top tube and eat at the right time, maybe I could improve like... 30-40% or something, right?

Anyone have Sky's DS's number? Wonder if it's too late to get into the TDF.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

PBL450 said:


> This just makes no physiological sense? I'm very sorry, I don't mean to be nasty... But this makes no sense at all.


I was doing 16 mph on places in the course where I have done 20mph before, when I didn't have all these impediments.

You guys read it wrong. You thought I was claiming by eating at the right time, all of a sudden everyone would get that 20% improvement.

I didn't say that.

I was just comparing my own performance with and without these impediments.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> I was doing 16 mph on places in the course where I have done 20mph before, when I didn't have all these impediments.
> 
> You guys read it wrong. You thought I was claiming by eating at the right time, all of a sudden everyone would get that 20% improvement.
> 
> ...


Dang, that's a special type of talent to be able to boost performance by 20% simply because you did or did not eat at a specific time. 

But what about the cornering? Surely that's like... 5-10% right?


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

myhui said:


> I was doing 16 mph on places in the course where I have done 20mph before, when I didn't have all these impediments.
> 
> You guys read it wrong. You thought I was claiming by eating at the right time, all of a sudden everyone would get that 20% improvement.
> 
> ...


Dude, no offense... But in 2 million years of human evolution the bicycle is a mere tick on the evolutionary clock? I must be misunderstanding. Rest can do this? Really. Adequate and scientifically timed recovery can have great benefits to overall performance.


----------



## evs (Feb 18, 2004)

ok runabike what ever you say


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

This is how they used to do it. It still works! This is the true "Bro Science", not the ones we read about on here.

Sports Science Exchange (2014) Vol. 27, No. 123, 1-4

NUTRITION AND THE MOLECULAR RESPONSE TO STRENGTH TRAINING 

Keith Baar
Department of Physiology and Membrane Biology
University of California Davis (CA)
United States of America



> INTRODUCTION
> 
> For thousands of years, we have understood the basic principle
> needed to overload muscle in order to increase strength. The earliest
> ...


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

evs said:


> ok runabike what ever you say


PBL450 is worse. Both should enroll in reading comprehension summer remedial courses.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

Sports Science Exchange (2014) Vol. 27, No. 123, 1-4

NUTRITION AND THE MOLECULAR RESPONSE TO STRENGTH TRAINING 

Keith Baar
Department of Physiology and Membrane Biology
University of California Davis (CA)
United States of America


> SCIENCE-BASED RECOMMENDATIONS FOR TRAINING TO OPTIMIZE MTOR ACTIVATION AND STRENGTH GAINS
> 
> Taking all of this information together, a simple plan can be devised
> to increase mTOR activity, protein synthesis and muscle strength
> ...


A List of Leucine-Rich Foods | LIVESTRONG.COM



> Leucine is found in the lean portion of meats and poultry, which are generally leucine-rich. For example, a 5-ounce serving of beef fillet contains 4 grams of leucine, while 1 cup of chopped, cooked chicken light meat or an average-sized pork loin chop contains about 3.5 grams. Most types of fish are also rich sources of leucine. These include canned light tuna, with 3.5 grams in 1 cup of tuna chunks, and salmon and haddock, which have about 3 grams of leucine in an average-sized filet. Other fish that are good leucine sources include whitefish, tilefish and trout.
> 
> Dairy products are good sources of leucine because they tend to be high in protein. For example, 1 cup of nonfat cow's milk provides 0.8 gram of leucine and slightly more if it's protein-fortified or has added nonfat milk solids. Most types of cheese are also sources of leucine -- a 1-ounce serving of edam, Colby, cheddar or bleu cheese provides between 0.5 and 0.7 gram of leucine, while Parmesan is a bit higher, with about 1 gram per ounce of hard cheese. Most types of yogurt also contain moderate amounts of leucine, with about 1 gram per 6-ounce container.


All our hard rides should end at 6PM at Ruth's Chris Steak House - The Best USDA Prime Steak Restaurant with not only a reservation, but a meal prepared for us so we can eat right after we sit down at the table.

Recommendation 4 above is certainly against common practice. 40 grams of leucine-rich protein requires a 50 ounce serving of beef fillet. We're supposed to eat that right before bed, albeit after a hard ride? Hey, I'll try it!


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

myhui said:


> PBL450 is worse. Both should enroll in reading comprehension summer remedial courses.


Sorry. I thought you were talking about cycling. I missed where you were talking about strength training. My bad. That is all reasonable advice for strength training, albeit a different activity than endurance training, but with similarities. HIT lifting is my winter activity. Be advised, this pattern will help you gain weight, advantage for lifting if done properly, but not so much for cycling, but again, my bad, I'm the worst, I didn't see where you changed?


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I have uploaded all the papers here:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5OcbVLk-NsXdDBaVkFCM0MzODQ&usp=sharing


----------



## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

myhui said:


> Yesterday's "race" was the best I'd ever done on the Great Park course, a wide open desolate space on a former airfield. I stayed with the pack for 2.25 laps. Then I felt stomach hunger, and my breathing became too quick, *so the cardio was the limiting factor* that time. I had to drop at that point, since physically I was maxed out. Well, on that day, even though I had the best food, I didn't eat the right amount of food, nor at the right time.


Maybe training could help with that.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

LVbob said:


> Maybe training could help with that.


Yes, I agree.

I had to make sure I get my nutrition right first, and then I need to make sure I go out there to do the right kind of training.

Now that I'm hooked on crit rides, just because they are a lot of fun, not that I'll ever stand on a podium for a race that's watched by thousands, the nutrition and training are that much more worthwhile. I still have this never say die attitude that I'm only 80% the speed of a good 25 year old male rider, so maybe with training, I can one day be faster than that type of rider. Yeah ... really!


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

Guod said:


> Pedal?
> 
> Spelling and context are so important.
> 
> ...


LOL!! Yes, I love it, my summer remedial reading comprehension needs aside, it reminds of: "let's eat grandma!" vs. "let's eat, Grandma!" One little comma saves lives. BTW, personnel lubricant? What a concept. There is a place for that.


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

I'll get into shape, "sit in the pack", and offer gels for sale at $50 each during the race, while we chit chat about other worldly issues.

That's called peddling something while racing.


----------



## Guod (Jun 9, 2011)

myhui said:


> I'll get into shape, "sit in the pack", and offer gels for sale at $50 each during the race, while we chit chat about other worldly issues.
> 
> That's called peddling something while racing.


Eh, I guess it might be.

Fortunately, at this rate, that'll never happen.

You might be able to try gel hand-ups though!


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> PBL450 is worse. Both should enroll in reading comprehension summer remedial courses.


I've taught those courses before...

Besides, you know you love us. Look how much fun this thread is for everyone involved! :thumbsup:


----------



## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I've been thinking...maybe the problem is not a nutrition timing issue...maybe...just maybe...the OP is not using a 53x39 like real cyclist use?


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> I've been thinking...maybe the problem is not a nutrition timing issue...maybe...just maybe...the OP is not using a 53x39 like real cyclist use?


No, I'm a gear geek, so my equipment is nearly perfect. It's my body and its usage that needs improvement.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

arai_speed said:


> I've been thinking...maybe the problem is not a nutrition timing issue...maybe...just maybe...the OP is not using a 53x39 like real cyclist use?


Bam. Nailed it!


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

runabike said:


> Bam. Nailed it!


Nailed what?

Please present a technical explanation of what you mean. "Bro Science" doesn't get published, but you sure get invited to all the daytime talk shows.


----------



## LVbob (Mar 24, 2014)

myhui said:


> Nailed what?
> 
> Please present a technical explanation of what you mean. "Bro Science" doesn't get published, but you sure get invited to all the daytime talk shows.


You lack a sense of humor.


----------



## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

myhui said:


> I'll get into shape, "sit in the pack", and offer gels for sale at $50 each during the race


You'll make a killing off racers who forget gels but remember $50s.


----------



## runabike (Jun 18, 2013)

myhui said:


> Nailed what?
> 
> Please present a technical explanation of what you mean. "Bro Science" doesn't get published, but you sure get invited to all the daytime talk shows.


Don't worry. There's a top-secret "Real Racer's Guide to What Real Racers Need to Know" booklet that explains all these things. 

You keep pegging away at your gu-chomping, top-tube power sliding abilities and you might just earn one for yourself some day. Unfortunately I can't really go too far in-depth with such g-14 classified knowledge to the uncategorized rider, but someone like yourself who relishes the nitty-gritty will probably glean thousands of useful tidbits from it. So get out there and start earning one!


----------



## myhui (Aug 11, 2012)

All you guys are much funnier than I am.


----------



## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

myhui said:


> All you guys are much funnier than I am.


I'm not.


----------



## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

runabike said:


> Don't worry. There's a top-secret "Real Racer's Guide to What Real Racers Need to Know" booklet that explains all these things.
> 
> You keep pegging away at your gu-chomping, top-tube power sliding abilities and you might just earn one for yourself some day. Unfortunately I can't really go too far in-depth with such g-14 classified knowledge to the uncategorized rider, but someone like yourself who relishes the nitty-gritty will probably glean thousands of useful tidbits from it. So get out there and start earning one!


Dude the first rule of bro-sci is?...


----------



## tlg (May 11, 2011)

myhui said:


> All you guys are much funnier than I am.


I dunno, I think everyone is laughing AT you the most. :wink:


----------

