# Why are most people opposed to threadlocker on chainring bolts?



## trekroadie1.5 (Oct 20, 2010)

I did a search on the installation of new chainrings on a Sram crankset and wondered if I should use some sort of threadlocker on the bolts because the ones I took off had blue threadlocker on them from the factory. But all I see is people using oil on the threads not threadlocker. I know the word Loctite scares a lot of people because they think it's a permanant adhesive, but there are variations that are forumlated for routine dissassembly with hand tools.

I haven't found any technical articles on Sram's website about installing chainrings or I would'nt be asking this question on here, but if they used a blue threadlocker from the factory, why would anyone put oil on the threads. The last time I checked oil was a lubricant and not an adhesive. As much torque and vibration that those bolts go through on a bike, I don't know why oil would be used over a threadlocker.

Now I do understand putting oil on the outside of the outboard bolt where it slides in to the spider to eliminate and noises if that bolt turns in the spider.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Have you actually asked "most people"? 
I've never heard of using oil on chainring bolts. Grease on the other hand... pretty common. Used to prevent rust/corrosion and creaking.

If you like locktite, go ahead and use it. It won't harm anything. But it's not needed. When properly tightened, chainring bolts don't come loose.


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

I find chainring bolts rarely come loose. I lube them so they won't seize.

That said, I see nothing wrong with using low level Loctite such as 242.


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## .40AET (Aug 8, 2008)

Don't use anything stronger than blue. Red is for cars.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

trekroadie1.5 said:


> I did a search on the installation of new chainrings on a Sram crankset and wondered if I should use some sort of threadlocker on the bolts because the ones I took off had blue threadlocker on them from the factory. But all I see is people using oil on the threads not threadlocker. I know the word Loctite scares a lot of people because they think it's a permanant adhesive, but there are variations that are forumlated for routine dissassembly with hand tools.
> 
> I haven't found any technical articles on Sram's website about installing chainrings or I would'nt be asking this question on here, but if they used a blue threadlocker from the factory, why would anyone put oil on the threads. The last time I checked oil was a lubricant and not an adhesive. As much torque and vibration that those bolts go through on a bike, I don't know why oil would be used over a threadlocker.
> 
> Now I do understand putting oil on the outside of the outboard bolt where it slides in to the spider to eliminate and noises if that bolt turns in the spider.


I've never heard of anyone oiling threads. Grease is the accepted lube. And as you note to guarantee silence it is best to put a thin layer of grease anywhere metal touches metal. Since chain ring bolts don't come loose and you are greasing the outside anyway, no issues with greasing the threads. I would think Loctite would be compromised with all that grease around.


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

I've never had an issue with chainring bolts coming loose but almost every time someone complains about a creaking noise on their bike some of the recommendations are "check to make sure your chainring bolts are tight". If they don't come loose as stated above, are they loose from the factory (assuming the chainrings haven't been changed since bike purchase).


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

redondoaveb said:


> I've never had an issue with chainring bolts coming loose but almost every time someone complains about a creaking noise on their bike some of the recommendations are "check to make sure your chainring bolts are tight". If they don't come loose as stated above, are they loose from the factory (assuming the chainrings haven't been changed since bike purchase).


I've never had any issues w/ them loosening up either, and I know that they're always tight from new IME. 
But...
I've seen lots of loose c-ring bolts.


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## mfdemicco (Nov 8, 2002)

I used blue locktite once on chainring bolts and they were very hard to remove.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2013)

I took one of my jockey pulleys off my new 105 deraileur and it had what I thought was blue locktight on it. However I have not had a problem with bolts vibrating loose so I just grease the threads like most people do to keep rust at a minimum. 

I have never had a chainring bolt come loose so I would not use locktight but it would not be a problem that I can see. I would not use the super strong stuff.


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## pkb (Oct 5, 2012)

I have never had a chain ring bolt come loose on my road bike, but I had the inner chain rings bolts come loose on my mountain bike. In fact two of the bolts fell off. I replaced the bolts, greased and torqued them. They still came loose.

I finally put blue locktight on them and never had a problem again.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

mfdemicco said:


> I used blue locktite once on chainring bolts and they were very hard to remove.


I believe it turns to powder at around 300deg F, or so.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

IF the bolts are aluminum and the chainring is steel (or the other way around) guess what... they have different coefficients of thermal expansion.

so, if the temperature goes down seriously you might have the bolts turn loose because aluminum alloy would shrink more than steel.

it might cause premature wear if they were mounted without any grease or any loctite. loctite fills the space between the threads in a way that locks the thread when the bolts become momentarily untensioned so they don't come loose from repeated stress/strain while pedaling. grease, if it is with thick enough can act like that as well, just that it does not keep the thread locked when under no tension.

you might be better off with a thick and durable, unwashable grease. that's because grease allows you to have the bolts tight to a higher tension (preload).

threadlocker compound, on the other hand does not decrease friction but increases it, not only when the bolt is loose but when tensioned as well. and that friction rises as the tension rises. so you can't get the bolts tight to the same tension without risking of damaging the bolts by torque. the total stress of the bolt is divided in two parts: tensional stress and TORSIONAL stress. if one is high then it takes only a little of the other to damage the bolt.

loctite has its best application on heavily vibrating parts, especially those that have considerable mass and the inertia would make the tension to fluctuate in a wild fashion. you would not want to risk having the rotor or disc brake caliper go off, would you? that's why safety is more important than longevity on brakes.

if the crankset has the chainrings come loose there's no danger because of that unless its a fixed gear and the chainring totally comes loose.

if the chain is not fixed in place and has movement on the spider, even if the loctite keeps it in place without the bolts unscrewing, that small movement will damage the spider and chainrings in time. well, even if you say "so what, i don't expect it to run forever" i'd still not be satisfied with the prospect to spend money unnecesarily if i were you. we have finite resources too.

so, your solution to the problem is working better than using simply oil (very probable a light one) but it is not the best solution. the best solution is to have shorter bolts - it might be that the bolts are too long and they can't clamp the chainring properly - or to apply the right grease.

it should be very resistant to emulsifying with water, maybe inhibit corrosion and have a very viscous base fluid, as high as possible. you are not interested in a bearing grease but one that stays put. oil tends to flow out and has trouble getting back without dragging crap together with it. the 'soap' (thickening) part of the grease keeps the oil from flowing out better.

*copper grease would be very good.*
other than that... some high viscosity calcium grease should work quite well. maybe calcium sulphonate but it does not resist washing out as well as calcium complex. avoid bike specific greases because those are not intended to be used primarily as assembly lubricants. 

also, try tightening in the "star" pattern, like you would draw a pentagram. a bitty bit on every bolt. come to the dark side, we've got scientists.

if you insist on using loctite just be sure to tighten them knowing that the torque is needed to be higher for the right preload. just don't torque them too high so the bolts would break.

just because you had trouble with 'oil' doesn't mean all oils are the sameb (viscosity) and grease functions the same as oil does.

again, loctite is more suited for brakes because it dampens vibrations really well so the bolts don't come loose from inertia.


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## flatlander_48 (Nov 16, 2005)

adipe12 said:


> IF the bolts are aluminum and the chainring is steel (or the other way around) guess what... they have different coefficients of thermal expansion.


Aluminum and steel is also a bad combination regarding galvanic corrosion...


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

adipe12 said:


> IF the bolts are aluminum and the chainring is steel (or the other way around) guess what... they have different coefficients of thermal expansion.
> 
> so, if the temperature goes down seriously you might have the bolts turn loose because aluminum alloy would shrink more than steel.


Ehhh not gonna happen.

With a temperature swing from 100°F down to 0°F, over the distance of a 1/8" thick chainring, the difference in thermal expansion between steel and alum is Six One Hundred Thousandths of an inch (.00006).
A more realistic temperature chainge of 50° creates a difference in expansion of Three One Hundred Thousandths of an inch (.00003). About 100x thinner than a human hair.

It's just not enough to cause bolts to loosen. If that were the case, bolts in my car engine would be coming loose all the time because I have plenty of steel bolts mounting aluminum stuff in my car.


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## headloss (Mar 3, 2013)

tlg said:


> It's just not enough to cause bolts to loosen. If that were the case, bolts in my car engine would be coming loose all the time because I have plenty of steel bolts mounting aluminum stuff in my car.


There have been cars that have issues with aluminum heads on steel blocks... I can't think of too many places where a car would use aluminum bolts unless used to combine two aluminum parts (aluminum block and head?).

On the bike front, one of the things that annoys me is steel bolts into aluminum, such as on a seatpost, which is why I like using Thomson or Salsa collars (with a barrel nut) and the higher end posts that have a barrel nut where the bolt holds the saddle.



.40AET said:


> Don't use anything stronger than blue. Red is for cars.


I've never seen it called for in automotive applications. I've never needed to use anything higher than blue... not saying it isn't, just emphasizing that red is very uncommon.


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## oberwil (Jun 18, 2005)

I used to work for REI. I can tell you that threads should always be greased. Loctite has some lubrication properties. That is why it's OK to use Loctite(or what ever) on threads.
I had a chain ring bolt come loose, but it was because I was an idiot on not checking some one elses work. I had bought some carbon cranks. bolt came loose on a ride I paid to register.
Any how Loctite makes different strength thread locking compounds. Every one who works in the shop at REI learns this. They have a very good training program. They basically use Barnett School as the guide.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

well then, go further and calculate the bolt's lengthening over that distance by the preload tension as well. you'll be surprised to find out how small that is when you compare the two (changing in length by thermal and tension). so that this factor is not infinitely small.

i'm not saying you are wrong, i am saying you are partly wrong.

it's that you can't/shouldn't ignore the effect of thermal expansion/compression.
let's ignore every additional gram on every component of the bike, shall we? like ignore the x grams difference from ultegra crankset to 105 crankset etc. etc. etc. it adds up.t

* the other factor of bolts loosening* is that the pedaling puts tension on the bolt as to make it thinner (or less round) in section and longer. it loses preload tension from that reason. that's why the design has the nut come into the spider hole as well.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

galvanic corrosion, IF it happens, will make the bolt resisting unscrewing on the chainring. good point there, you don't need grease elsewhere but on the threads. you could be happy with loctite for that reason and don't know why.

the effect of galvanic corrosion from the inner chainring, if it is steel and the outer chainring is aluminum, helps you unscrew the bolts without needing that special key on the other/inner side. you only need the hex key.

you could choose to be careful to have the grease only on the threads and not where the bolt/nuts contact the chainrings if they are steel. *or you could tighten them properly* and maybe check them again when winter comes only to find out you did not tighen them good in the first place. the thermal expansion coefficient DOES count in.

anyway, DON'T use oil. it can flow out and prevent that galvanic corrosion you might want to happen before winter. grease keeps the base oil from flowing out.

for this reason the bolts/nuts could be degreased before applying a small amount of grease on the threads.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

headloss said:


> There have been cars that have issues with aluminum heads on steel blocks... I can't think of too many places where a car would use aluminum bolts unless used to combine two aluminum parts (aluminum block and head?).


Heads and blocks are a little different. Larger items and much higher temps will lead to larger thermal expansion.
No I don't know of any aluminum bolts in a car engine. But there are steel bolts used with aluminum parts.



> On the bike front, one of the things that annoys me is steel bolts into aluminum, such as on a seatpost


Definitely a bad idea. Mine get swapped out for stainless or Ti.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

adipe12 said:


> well then, go further and calculate the bolt's lengthening over that distance by the preload tension as well. you'll be surprised to find out how small that is when you compare the two (changing in length by thermal and tension). so that this factor is not infinitely small.


No I wouldn't be surprised. If the bolt is 3/8" overall, then the expansion difference would be Nine One Hundred Thousandths (0.00009). About 40x thinner than a human hair. Still too miniscule to matter.



> it's that you can't/shouldn't ignore the effect of thermal expansion/compression.


I'm an engineer and work in the heat treat industry. I deal with thermal expansion on a daily basis with temps of 3000°F. 
50°-100° of temp variance over 1/8" or 3/8" just isn't significant.



> the other factor of bolts loosening is that the pedaling puts tension on the bolt as to make it thinner (or less round) in section and longer. it loses preload tension from that reason. that's why the design has the nut come into the spider hole as well.


So my chainring bolts should be falling out? It has no nut. Why don't my bolts get "thinner" and lose preload tension?








Perhaps the binding nut goes inside the ring because if the nut was outside, it'd interfere with the chain.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

what is the preload tension of the bolt? 
what is the section area of the bolt/nut? 
what is the elastic modulus of the material?
-- if you know all this then you can calculate and compare this lengthening in terms of milimeters, microns, percent of hair width to the relative shortening of the chainring width for reason of different coefficient of thermal expansion. it's not to be neglected, i assure you.

it seems that you did not understand the language i used before this post. well, i'll reformulate in the following.

what is the effect of the pedaling torque transmited throught those 4/5 arms of ther spider to the chainring in terms of pressure in order to make the bolts lose their preload completely and make them able to detension?

for this last question i am unable to answer. it was formulated in order for you to understand the point i tried to make in those words before your post.

in case you still did not understand it yet... the bolts have a preload, right? well, what makes the bolts lose their preload besides the temperature change factor? (that you say is insignificant as change - in percent - of preload)

it's the lengthening of the bolts as effect of them pressed by pedaling torque, getting thinner and only slightly (infinitely small grade) ovalized.

---
oh, and by the way, *i did not* say that having the nut inside the spider/chainring is only because of one reason. you seem to imply that interfering with the chain would be the only problem for which the design has put it this way. i won't say this is the only reason.

i'll tell you this: the preload tension lengthens only the bolt but compresses the nut. it is more efficient to have this *preload lengthen the bolt as much as possible*. i hope we can agree on that.

going further, if the nut would have been outside that chainring/spider hole then it's compression by the tension of the bolt would not help the bolt maintain it's round shape when subject to pedaling pressure applied. but, being inside the hole then the bolt is not pressed directed by the chainring and/or the spider but the nut supports that compression as well. compression through pressure which would have lenghened the bolt even more dramatically if the nut would not have been there.

also, the ovalization i was talking about before would have occured more dramatically if the bolt would have become thinner because of the preload tension. instead the overall diameter of both bolt and nut remain more constant.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Just to note -- 

- Loctite (and similar) are adhesives . _All threads must be clean (no grease) for the adhesive to set_. Loctite-glued threads require old Loctite to be scrubbed off & re-applied, if the bolts are removed.

- The "blue stuff" on factory threads is a pre-applied thread locker, _not _adhesive. It can be re-used a few times before it wears off, and is also partially effective on greased threads. 
It works by adding a high-friction spot on the threads, and works in similar way as nylon inserts in a "locking nut".
AFAIK, "thread locker" is not available or amenable to simple DIY use.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

adipe12 said:


> in case you still did not understand it yet... the bolts have a preload, right? well, what makes the bolts lose their preload besides the temperature change factor? (that you say is insignificant as change - in percent - of preload)


My chainring bolts don't lose their preload. Ever. (And I only use grease, no Loctite)
They don't lose their preload from pedaling torque. Nor from extreme temperature changes.

If your chainring bolts loosen.... you've got problems... and it's not from thermal expansion. I assure you.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Wow, huge amount of knowledge dump from a simple question.

I have had chainring bolts come loose. I was a bike wrench for six years. I saw many loose bolts. 

I have used blue locktight on everything from chainring bolts to bottom bracket threads. Never had an issue removing blue locktighted stuff. On the other hand, we had a guy bring a frame with a green locktighted BB. That was fun to get out.

I would not agree that red locktight is "for cars". Blue is less than red is less than green. I regularly use red and green when the situation calls for them.<red<green. i="" regularly="" use="" red="" and="" green="" on="" rc="" stuff.<red<green.="" stuff="" regularly.="" anymore,="" the="" problem="" is="" trying="" to="" find="" for="" sale.<="" html=""></red<green.>


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

tlg said:


> My chainring bolts don't lose their preload. Ever. (And I only use grease, no Loctite)
> They don't lose their preload from pedaling torque. Nor from extreme temperature changes.
> 
> If your chainring bolts loosen.... you've got problems... and it's not from thermal expansion. I assure you.


1. my chainring bolts don't get loosened (complete loss of preload which conducts to unscrewing/loosening).
2. the momentary partial losing of the preload by pedaling torque is surely there, just that it's not a complete loss of preload to ZERO tension. it's like spokes losing tension when subjected to loads so we make sure there's a preload high enough for them that they don't reach zero in order for them to come loose from repeated shocks. 

tell us what is the bloody reason for the bolts to come loose if not those two i explained in so many words?

pardon my irritation.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> Wow, huge amount of knowledge dump from a simple question.
> 
> I have had chainring bolts come loose. I was a bike wrench for six years. I saw many loose bolts.
> 
> ...


that's a perfectly good example of how people blame the wrong reason for some of their problems and choose the inappropriate stuff. it's just marketing. some people try to make sure their product goes out of stock. and some become zealots that don't even require pay. what more would you want if not zealots that sell your product without charge for their advertising work?

why have you buy some cheap viscous calcium grease if loctite wants to sell it's stock? why not have them benefit from zealots so the sales go high?

why don't we just use a solution to every problem and forget about simple science? science is for freaks like einstein who don't go out much, right?

wrong. einstein travelled large distances by thought. and he did not use drugs .


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

adipe12 said:


> tell us what is the bloody reason for the bolts to come loose if not those two i explained in so many words?


Improper torque.

I only needed 2 words. :wink5:


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

tlg said:


> Improper torque.
> 
> I only needed 2 words. :wink5:


but how does improper torque make the bolts able to come loose?
do they come loose overnight because they have needs? do they need to be screwed? do they get upset they were not screwed enough?

or is it something to do with them being subjected to pedaling work goddamit.

apparently i need to get screwed


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

tlg said:


> Improper torque.
> 
> I only needed 2 words. :wink5:


Vibration

One word.



adipe12 said:


> that's a perfectly good example of how people blame the wrong reason for some of their problems and choose the inappropriate stuff. it's just marketing. some people try to make sure their product goes out of stock. and some become zealots that don't even require pay. what more would you want if not zealots that sell your product without charge for their advertising work?





adipe12 said:


> why have you buy some cheap viscous calcium grease if loctite wants to sell it's stock? why not have them benefit from zealots so the sales go high?
> 
> why don't we just use a solution to every problem and forget about simple science? science is for freaks like einstein who don't go out much, right?
> 
> wrong. einstein travelled large distances by thought. and he did not use drugs .




I have no idea what you are talking about?

I have had the same blue loctite for six or seven years. Look at them cash in on my consumerism.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> Vibration
> 
> One word.
> 
> ...


you, sir, have all my respect for pointing to me my lack of comprehension. i get it now and i thank you.

i clearly have - sorry, had - absolutely no idea what i am talking about. i get it now, i am starting to see the sun. i just got out of the cave.

the universe is vibrating and i was desync'd with it. i clearly need to get my sync and vibrate with the universe to get the idea so i can talk pleasing you, The All.

i didn't know that you imbue an appropriate vibration to the bolts when you torque them with the right stuff.

it's clear to me now that when i use a generic cheap calcium based grease with a high viscosity base oil i imbue them bolts with the wrong vibration.

how silly of me to have been protesting up to now.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> Vibration
> 
> One word.
> 
> ...



the chainring does not vibrate in a high frequency, nor the cranks. nor does the frame vibrate with high frequency.

the brakes, however DO vibrate with VERY high frequencies. that's why the sound they sometime make is annoying to the ears. they shouldn't but... leave it to the poor educated to assemble them and maintain them. the problem occurs for that matter very frequently. there are also accidental high panic stops which may put too high a stress (compressional) on the parts the bolts should keep pressure on as well. you don't want to inspect the brakes bolts from time to time in order to prevent accidents, do you?

from that kind of vibration - HIGH frequency - the bolts can lose preload (for a very small fraction of a second) to a certain degree. it would make the tension oscilate, getting a bit lower and then a bit higher and so on, in a sinusoidal fashion. that's vibration at considerably high frequency. if that degree is also "helped" by the part's compression (when the panic stop occurs), the part that the bolts press against, then the bolts lose the preload completely and are able to unscrew. and that is because the *inertia of the bolts matters* in that difficult for you to understand (or should i hope you have finally undertood) phenomena. the vibration would not make the bolts unscrew if the bolts' mass would not matter. *it's just that the higher the frequency the more the vibration is an additional reason for preload momentary loss. *only if the bolt goes to zero preload can it unscrew/loosen. and loctite simply prevents the unscrewing/loosening because it glues the threads together so the bolt does not unscrew in those unlikely circumstances when the preload is lost to zero.

here, have it drawn out to you: the bolt goes back to tension but not the same tension because in that very small time when the tension was lost it managed to rotate. if it was not for that small movement when the bolt would lose tension it would not have unscrewed. the friction keep it from unscrewing BUT the friction goes to zero if the tension is gone to zero for that moment.

so, you can have the brakes (caliper, rotor) fixed into place with greased bolts as well. it's just that in case of failure you are SCREWED and you don't want to ever find out you did not screw them properly in the first place.

BUT, for other applications loctite is not the appropriate solution to the problem. it's just a foolproof solution. if the bolts are not properly tensioned then there'd be wear on the parts because completely unloading the bolts can make the part subject to small but frequent shocks that can damage the material. or make the material wear as surface finish etc.

if loctite was the perfect solution and you only needed to find the red/blue/green/yellow/brown stuff then why wouldn't you put it - that particular colour coded variant - in EVERY nipple and spoke thread you meet?

i hope you're happy with all this effort i am willing to make to educate you into natural law.

moral law, on the other hand... that's something that takes a lot of effort to educate people to and unfortunately sometimes they are 'work hardened' into a bad behaviour that even if they would recognize it's there, in their neurological connections, they can't help to fix it immediately or completely.

---
i take it that you don't express by "vibration" the meaning of "heavy use". because i said it's primarily *pedalling torque* that makes the chainring bolts lose tension although not completely. it's continuous, positive tension that makes them fixed into place so they don't come loose in time.

the other reason, secondary in terms of effect, is the variation of temperature should the bolts be aluminum, the spider aluminum alloy AND the chainring steel. because at lower temperature the steel compresses less than aluminum based alloy. to what degree that difference in temperature affects the bolt preload as compared to bolt length increase for having an elastic modulus of about 70GPa (aluminum alloy) i would have been glad to calculate a few days ago. i just don't care to invest that much time on the interwebs right now. i somehow lack motivation and that might be because people like you think they are better/smarter replying with "only one word: vibration". and then implying indirectly that i have no idea what i am talking about. duh. really, did i use chinese language for you to be unsure of what i am talking about or are you just lazy...

anyway, my practical advise goes like this: just torque them bolts to a higher point then they were before they got loose and put some grease on the threads to help reach a higher tension. careful, if they are greased you might tension them too high. oh, and apply torque a little after a little for each bolt, like drawing a five pointed star and not all of a sudden.

if you find technical data for reccomended torque in Nm with bolts ungreased, greased or with a certain loctite on the threads... inform the masses. but i don't think they'll use a torque wrench nor use something like this:
https://www1.halsun.net/product/scale/pull-spring-scale/original/ZY-006.jpg

every alloy has it's day of failure. it's mostly the alloy quality that limits the maximum torque and tension.

by the way, grease on the threads makes the bolts able to take higher tension because there's less additional torsional stress to them the moment you torque them. loctite makes them less able to torque properly because the friction is higher therefore the torsional stress is higher and they fail before a certain desired tension preload is reached.

it's simply because the dude that designed the piece for that sort of bolt did not intend to make so that it would not fail even if you stuffed glue in it. and if it does not fail than then it would move and the part would be prematurely worn. ever ridden a bike with a loose saddle in the post? click click...

you could sniff glue if you want... but don't advise others to do as you do.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

adipe12 said:


> ...
> it's just marketing. some people try to make sure their product goes out of stock. and some become zealots that don't even require pay. *what more would you want if not zealots that sell your product without charge for their advertising work?*
> 
> why have you buy some cheap viscous calcium grease if loctite wants to sell it's stock? why not have them benefit from zealots so the sales go high?
> ...


to crit_boy: i hope that you did understand that i was not necessarily talking to you, as in second person, in those bolded words above. it was simply rhetorical formulation and not primarily directed to you.

and also, the fact that you did not buy more blue/glue for six or seven years is not making your argument stand BUT this following fact does make your argument void: 
the fact that you advise many others to use it (therefore buy it, every little cent counts and that cent is multiplied by the number of credulous readers you affect) for chainring bolts although it's not the best solution for this application.

(not directed primarily to you but to the anonymous average guy) just put some high viscous grease on the threads. or, if you don't have that kind of grease more readily available to you than loctite and you don't have the patience to find grease instead... use loctite but make sure you use the lightest one.

my only grudge for all this chit chat is that by giving bad advise cycling has less cyclists. it should be fun but bad advise and frustration makes people think it's only for freaks, nerds and kids.

i don't have a grudge with loctite. i bought some little tube myself for disc brake caliper and rotor to fix with them bolts. but i do have a grudge with stupidity.
(although i'm not 100% certain them loctite people don't get into this practice of marketing by disguised advertising and producing zealots)

i hope you learn to 'vibrate'.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

adipe12 said:


> the chainring does not vibrate in a high frequency, nor the cranks. nor does the frame vibrate with high frequency. . . .


Based on your pontification, no bolts ever come loose. Your lengthy thought experiment is not supported with empirical evidence. 



adipe12 said:


> because it glues the threads together so the bolt does not unscrew


Yes, that is why it is called thread locking compound. 



adipe12 said:


> if loctite was the perfect solution


You are the only one making up the position that loctite is the perfect solution. No one has alleged such information. Loctite has its use in some situations. 

If you have something against loctite, don't use it. OP asked whether he could use it on chainring bolts. The answer is, Yes you can. 

I don't know if you got fired from loctite or sell grease, but I am sorry that my use of loctite personally offends you. 



adipe12 said:


> and you only needed to find the red/blue/green/yellow/brown stuff then why wouldn't you put it - that particular colour coded variant - in EVERY nipple and spoke thread you meet?


You do, it is called spoke prep (here). Thank you for memorializing your ignorance. 

Please, come back when you have some semblance of actual bicycle maintenance knowledge - and experiences backing up your position that only brake bolts come loose.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

what i am saying again is that you have a poor vocabulary.
*load is something different than vibration.* load makes the bolts go untensioned and therefore unscrew. chainring bolts never go loose from 'vibration'. NEVER.

if i say that there are people who encourage others to imitate them for reasons of ego mixed with stupidity i am not wrong. people like you prove me right all the time.

as for spoke prep and wheelbuilding i can only say to you this:
i recently built my FIRST wheel with *1.5mm* spokes (DT Rev) and got it to 122kgf average tension. no spoke twist. nada. after that i got it back to:
- 113.3kgf lowest spoke tension
- 119.2kgf highest spoke tension
- no more than 0.15mm TOTAL radial runout, 0.1mm lateral.
(if you wonder how i measured that i'll tell you that a sheet of paper has 0.106mm)

no other tools but a spoke key and zip ties. and having a decent rim, it's a double eyeleted (socketed) DT Tk 540.
now try doing the same thing with 1.5mm spokes (that high tension and properly trued), see if you can. and by the way, i did not use spoke prep but some other stuff i figured would help me more. and, by the way, the wheel was damaged before i started the work. *it had 1mm radial runout and tension between ~65 kgf and ~86kgf*. it was clear that the rim was hit.* the nipples had loctite (prolock) *so the wheel could not have come out of true for other reason than *rim damage*. i had to get the rim back to round again. i replaced the stupid aluminum nipples that had glue in them with nickel plated brass for durabilty and for making it possible to have high tension (lower friction meaning less torsional stress) in them spokes so that the rim would not be damaged again etc. i bought the wheel used and did not trust any mechanic do the work in the area i live in. i just thought that if i want things done right maybe i should get busy with the work myself.

this is science applied to bike mechanics. no tensiometer, by the way... just 680 Hz maximum sound and 663 Hz minimum sound for spokes laced to an XT 40mm flange hub. the rest is some scientific equation and a bit of computing technology readily available. if i were to earn my living by wheelbuilding i would have bought some precise tensiometer that would take less time to use (for the final tuning/adjusting) but a proper one is too expensive for some casual wheelbuilding i do for myself.

all this is not 'thought experiment'. it's universally accepted science taught as academics and applied to bikes. gee. it's not some theory i just came up with but all people with some academic education use this science. maybe the average, ordinary, typical bike mechanic doesn't _need_ science (that doesn't mean it would be of no use to learn and apply it) but just imitates some other bike mechanic, copying the same technical procedures. guess what, you copy the errors as well. monkey see, monkey do. technical information gets distorted especially when science has no place to be learned and stored in the mechanic's memory. too much hurry to get the job done but too little care to have it done as good as possible. why bother? the client couldn't see the fault if the mechanic couldn't see it, right? it's possible to have the job done as good as possible and fast as well, you just have to find the right solution and routine. learng to question common practice. how do you think we ever got this far in science and technology if not for people questioning if the common practice is the most efficient available to man?

so now...
you mean to say that pedalling torque (high torque) does not make bolts preload tension go towards zero? ffs, that's the primary factor for crank bolts unscrewing (coming loose). are you saying that pedalling torque does not count and the only thing that makes the damn thing unscrew is *'vibration'*?

maybe i came to the wrong room and people like you get offended for me having theoretical arguments. i do have practical/empirical arguments too. how about this:
1. temperature change affects my headset preload because the materials involved dont have the same thermal expansion coefficients. that's steel frame with carbon fibre fork with partially carbon steerer tube (crabon fribe plus aluminum alloy inside it). i am careful to adjust it when winter comes so that it doesn't get damage for being too slack. *and when the temperature gets high again the headset goes stiff so i have to loosen it.*
(i'm sorry, i did not experiment having loose chainring bolts in the summer to wait for winter to come so that they would go loose. but please extrapolate this i wrote above).
2. no wheel goes EVER out of true if the spokes are tensioned properly. except for really high accidental hits (several hundreds of kgf for a properly built wheel). glue is only needed if the tension is low. *it's preload that keeps the threads locked*. by the way, spokes vibrate too. spokes don't go slack from vibration. do they? that's theory proven by practice. having grease on the threads cannot make the friction coefficient go too low. well... there is a kind of grease that could make the friction go very low when very high pressures occur but people don't buy it because its VERY expensive. i'm gonna leave you figure out what grease is that.

please leave me be, i'm not in the mood to have all this chit chat so that you take my words out of the context and miss the point.

'thought experiment'... thanks, mate, i really needed a gratuitous insult.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

You are completely correct master builder. Upon building your first wheel on a damaged rim, I submit to you overwhelming knowledge and experience. 

From your arch nemesis:
www.useloctite.com/filephotos/documents/LT4985TLCapabilityGd.pdf

Page 2: vibration and improper torque cause threaded fasteners to loosen.
Page 2: loctite acts as a lubricant - thus equalling your alleged grease advantage.

BTW - DT revolutions and brass nipples are not the best combination. Those spokes are the weak link, not alloy nipples. With your breadth of knowledge, I am sure you know that though.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

vibration is a poor choice of describing *load*. if 'vibrating' was to make chainring bolts come loose it would need to bo so high a frequency and amplitude you could not ride on the damn thing. imagine going on a bike without pedalling but the whole thing vibrating in order to make the inertia of them bolts count. can you imagine that?

when will you get it that 'vibration' is a poor choice of words?

will you spare me the marketing hype?

brass nipples are not a bad combination with any kind of spokes. it's just that the durability is increased and the ease of building the wheel is an advantage as well. have you ever heard of stress corrosion?

the only disadvantage of nickel plated brass nipples vs good aluminum alloy nipples is the increased weight. i don't care for 20 additional grams of nipples. i care more about the trouble i have when building the wheel again. stress corrosion is something that happens regardless of your trust in others advice. physical reality doesn't conform to marketing hype.

oh, and did i mention you'd have a bloody tough time tensioning the wheel to about 115kgf with 1.5mm spokes and aluminum alloy nipples? unless you would use moly grease but guess what, moly grease is dangerous because of that MoS2. stress corrosion would be more of a pain in that scenario.

you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

loctite is not my arch nemesis, your ego mixed with stupidity surely is.
are are you on loctite pay roll? they are not guilty until evidence is found out. so far you have managed to discredit only yourself. i have not yet said loctite should not be in the business. i just said you might as well expect this damn sell it by zealot marketing from any corporation.

zealots have preachers to spread the word, you know? priests and preachers are most oftenly paid, that's how religions start ffs. just expect the worse from anyone. like when you cross the street, watch for maniacs regardless of the traffic signs. most accidents to pedestrians happen on the crosswalk. they don't watch for maniacs, they think they'll be safe following the rules/laws.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

and loctite does not lower the coefficient of friction more than grease does.
therefore you can't torque to the same tension a bolt with loctite as you can with grease.

just get it over with.


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## crit_boy (Aug 6, 2013)

For anyone else who read through the last few posts, I apologize for feeding the troll. Although I have been on various forums for many years, I fell into the trap. Please forgive my error.


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## TucsonMTB (Aug 3, 2008)

Wow! Lot of passion and technical analysis for such a simple issue.

Perhaps the newer designs, like those where the chain ring bolts thread into the aluminum outer chain ring are different. But, most of us "older" riders, who sort of grew up with the sport and were pretty much forced to do our own wrenching out of economic necessity or to keep our race gear running properly, have been using grease on threads for decades.

If you are new to riding or wrenching, you should try it. Trust me!


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

crit_boy said:


> For anyone else who read through the last few posts, I apologize for feeding the troll. Although I have been on various forums for many years, I fell into the trap. Please forgive my error.


you are the troll. perhaps without intention.

i brought arguments instead of provoking. but you, even when you are proven wrong refuse to admit it.

you should be ashamed for calling me a troll.

usually it's the troll that spends less time with real, true arguments but rather focuses on taking things out of context and insults gratuitously. that means doing it without solid grounds, without justification.

good bye.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

the design having the bolts go directly into the spider without any nuts is used for the inner ring on a triple. if the inner, small chainring is steel and the bolts are aluminum you are advised to torque them when it's cold, maybe check them at this time of the year. you'll be able to torque them to higher tension overall if the temperature is lower.

the current design is tried and true. no reason to fix something that is not broken.

and by the way, if the bolts are tightened improperly, even if they don't come loose (for reason of glue preventing unscrewing) there will be some adverse effects, like an additional factor for chain wear. the most painful effect is to be found at the end of this post. the chainring should not move relative to the spider under load. if it moves then the bolts/nuts will hit the spider under load so that there'll be small little hits for a given load. that you do not need to happen, do you? you may not be aware of it happening but that doesn't mean it doesn't.

there, i explained it to the average guy, how glue works. glue does not prevent the part moving up and down, left and right etc. on the contact surface, it just makes so the bolts do not unscrew under severe load (primary) or other secondary factors.

for example, brake parts, if improperly installed - bolts with glue but torqued improperly - would produce vibration from this extra reason.

loctite is good for preventing accidents. chainring bolts coming loose does not produce accidents.

on brake parts you don't want to risk. you can't afford it. simple as that.

so, even if some people use copper grease for bolts fixing calipers etc. without accidents i would not reccomend it (copper grease) for the average guy. it's just that there's some risk as to it. the higher the pressure of the caliper when you brake - panic stops - the more the tension of bolts goes towards zero. therefore making them able to unscrew. 

and vibration is another factor besides load. likewise, changes in temperature.

to folks that haven't yet understood what torsional stress is and how it affects the maximum preload tension the bolts may be brought up with. i suggest taking a look at this:
https://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/e3_6a.htm
(take at look especially at those three rows where values are expressed in MPa: tensile stress, torsional stress, equivalent stress)

you'll find torsional stress added up to tensile stress so that the total should be lower than the UTS. friction coefficient limits the preload tension you can bring the bolts up to.

--- what can happen in extreme cases of improper torque ---
what you risk happening on the long run if the bolts aren't properly tightened, even if they have glue on the threads:
https://distilleryimage5.s3.amazonaws.com/3cf4725a8ce611e2b9da22000a1faf53_7.jpg
the reason is the material having a certain fatigue strength, the higher the load - like when having small movements and small hits - the lower the number of cycles the material can be subjected to before it fails.
---
so do yourself a favour and make sure that when you install the chainring you tighten the bolts with a bit of heavy viscosity grease on the threads to help you reach higher preload tensions. and tighten them in a star order, a bit of more torque on each bolt drawing a pentagram. or cross.


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## adipe12 (Oct 29, 2013)

*Common Torques of Bicycle Parts (Lubricated)*​

Chainring bolts11-13.5 Nm

<tbody>

</tbody>Bicycle Fastener Torque Specification

another site with torque specs for chainring bolts:

Torque Specifications - Bicycle Tutor

---
these values are for lubricated bolts. grease is reccomended because it keeps the oil in so that dismounting is easier too and the threads don't get damaged. high viscosity base oil grease.

nuff said.


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