# Marginal Gains... Derailleur Pulley Wheels Upgrade?



## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

TL;DR...

*Is there a reason why Shimano jockey wheels are designed the way they are... i.e., they don't spin freely? Is replacing them a source of a "marginal gain" or a complete waste of money? *

Since the beginning of time, I've always been baffled at why Shimano rear derailleur jockey wheels have such seemingly poor bearings (and I use the term "bearing" loosely.) When I do a tear-down of my bike for cleaning, I'm always stumped at why the jockey wheels don't spin freely which makes them "watt vampires" (I.e, they're sucking away precious watts! Albeit such a small amount of watts, it might not matter.)

I'm considering "upgrading" my derailleur jockey wheels, provided someone here doesn't provide me with a convincing reason not to  

It's been my experience that pretty, anodized aluminum wheels are noisy and don't necessarily work as well as the stock Delrin (plastic) wheels. After doing some research, I've also come to the conclusion that the oversized pulley wheel fad, like those by CeramicSpeed, are not only ridiculously priced but have questionable performance gains... if any. 

Therefore, I'm considering the following:



Tacx Ceramic + Teflon
BBInfinite Ceramic - A bit pricey. Which color is the fastest? 
Some other brand I don't know about?
Do nothing, waste my money elsewhere...


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

My opinion is these things are for suckers. Regular pulleys only cost a couple of Watts of drag, so that is the most you could possibly get back (at a very high cost). Upgrading tires would be a far better investment. Even cheaper, finding a slightly more aero position on the bike


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

A chain drivetrain is something like 98% efficient. The pulleys are a very small part of that. Say you improve their efficiency by 50%...what does that get you? A fraction of a single watt. If you have money jumping out of your wallet then go for it. Otherwise...

And obviously this should be in 'components/wrenching' not here.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

cxwrench said:


> And obviously this should be in 'components/wrenching' not here.


Sorry... feel free to move the post. To me, "components/wrenching" sounds like a forum for how-to work on your bike vs. component choices... probably due to the word "wrenching".


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

cxwrench said:


> A chain drivetrain is something like 98% efficient. The pulleys are a very small part of that. Say you improve their efficiency by 50%...what does that get you? A fraction of a single watt. If you have money jumping out of your wallet then go for it. Otherwise...
> 
> And obviously this should be in 'components/wrenching' not here.



Well you can get "ceramic" bearing RD pulleys on fleabay for $12/set.....so you get the conversation piece (same as original), without the $$$, and lord knows what real-world gains (same as the original). Win win win?


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

Marc said:


> Well you can get "ceramic" bearing RD pulleys on fleabay for $12/set.....so you get the conversation piece (same as original), without the $$$, and lord knows what real-world gains (same as the original). Win win win?











 Hmm... Did you find any Delrin wheels that with ceramic bearings for $12? When I do an eBay search, even the knock-off brands are pretty darn expensive, like these "TriPeak" wheels at $59 shipped from the other side of the planet...


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

PoorInRichfield said:


> Sorry... feel free to move the post. To me, "components/wrenching" sounds like a forum for how-to work on your bike vs. component choices... probably due to the word "wrenching".


Seems to me we are down to two subforums: PO and unrelated bike stuff


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

PoorInRichfield said:


> Hmm... Did you find any Delrin wheels that with ceramic bearings for $12? When I do an eBay search, even the knock-off brands are pretty darn expensive, like these "TriPeak" wheels at $59 shipped from the other side of the planet...



Delrin? Plastic? But how will anyone know about your magical ceramics if they aren't colored aluminum?

Seriously, tho use the region filter and sort US or N.A. only. The Plastic wheel options are more prices than aluminum for whatever reason.


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

I've yet to see a post-race interview by a professional cyclist that attributes his victory to derailleur pulleys.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Retro Grouch said:


> I've yet to see a post-race interview by a professional cyclist that attributes his victory to derailleur pulleys.



What do you think all those "Marginal Gains" (that are NOT pharmaceuticals) are?


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## Patb095 (Nov 5, 2016)

cxwrench said:


> A chain drivetrain is something like 98% efficient. The pulleys are a very small part of that. Say you improve their efficiency by 50%...what does that get you? A fraction of a single watt. If you have money jumping out of your wallet then go for it. Otherwise...
> 
> And obviously this should be in 'components/wrenching' not here.


+1


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

Retro Grouch said:


> I've yet to see a post-race interview by a professional cyclist that attributes his victory to derailleur pulleys.


That's only because derailleur pulleys have no voice and have been repressed for decades. Riders are falsely leading us to believe that their own talent, training, and physical ability is the reason for their winning races when the truth is that the unsung hero, the derailleur pulley (with ceramic bearings), is the real secret to winning. It's time we stop this madness and let the truth be known!!! Who's with me!?!?!


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## Patb095 (Nov 5, 2016)

This is marketing looking for more sales. 


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

DaveG said:


> My opinion is these things are for suckers. Regular pulleys only cost a couple of Watts of drag, so that is the most you could possibly get back (at a very high cost). *Upgrading tires would be a far better investment.*


^^^This.^^^

The value of ceramic bearings on bicycles has been debunked many times.

Jet engines, yes. Bicycles, no.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

Lombard said:


> Jet engines, yes. Bicycles, no.


You have no idea how high of a cadence I pedal at, do you...


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

poorinrichfield said:


> you have no idea how high of a cadence i pedal at, do you... :d


lol!!


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

I remember ads for Bullseye Pulleys appearing in the early 1970s. I couldn't remember the claimed savings, but googling brought up the ad with the figures. Never requested the test results, so I'm still not sure how exactly they got the 100 mile/100 pounds/120 feet claim.


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

PoorInRichfield said:


> That's only because derailleur pulleys have no voice and have been repressed for decades. Riders are falsely leading us to believe that their own talent, training, and physical ability is the reason for their winning races when the truth is that the unsung hero, the derailleur pulley (with ceramic bearings), is the real secret to winning. It's time we stop this madness and let the truth be known!!! Who's with me!?!?!


Haha, be the champion they need! I remember being switched to ceramic bearings as an inline speed skater... Of course it made no difference. The sponsor wanted it and it didn’t cost me anything. I tried like hell to feel something, hear something, see a gain... But my skills just didn’t heat those little balls enough I guess. But every elite pro was on them.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

PBL450 said:


> I tried like hell to feel something, hear something, see a gain... But my skills just didn’t heat those little balls enough I guess. But every elite pro was on them.


Dang-it guys, you're all talking me out of wasting my money on new pulley wheels. (My wallet thanks you!)


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

PoorInRichfield said:


> You have no idea how high of a cadence I pedal at, do you...


You should be racing on the track then!


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## redondoaveb (Jan 16, 2011)

cxwrench said:


> You should be racing on the track then!


Yeah, but then he wouldn't be able to use his fancy jockey pulleys.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

redondoaveb said:


> Yeah, but then he wouldn't be able to use his fancy jockey pulleys.


Doh... true-dat! Fixed-gear FTW


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

wim said:


> I remember ads for Bullseye Pulleys ...


Remember the ads? Heck; I had 'em! They're the reason I made it to Cat. 3...

I still have Bullseye hubs on two bikes.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

Peter P. said:


> Remember the ads? Heck; I had 'em! They're the reason I made it to Cat. 3...
> 
> I still have Bullseye hubs on two bikes.


Yes, Roger Durham made some great stuff. Never could believe the aftermarket pulley hype. But Durham's pulleys were well-designed, even if the gains were marginal.


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## Fredrico (Jun 15, 2002)

wim said:


> I remember ads for Bullseye Pulleys appearing in the early 1970s. I couldn't remember the claimed savings, but googling brought up the ad with the figures. Never requested the test results, so I'm still not sure how exactly they got the 100 mile/100 pounds/120 feet claim.


Yep. Replaced a pair of Shimano pulleys with sealed bearing aluminum Bullseye on the commuter 15 years ago. Just wipe 'em off and go. The bearings are still stiff. The old sleeve bearings got really flippy after 5 years, not to mention worn down. Bullseye held up much better overall. They run the chain smoother, very quiet. 

So do it, man. They cost more like $20, being pre-ceramic.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

PoorInRichfield said:


> Dang-it guys, you're all talking me out of wasting my money on new pulley wheels. (My wallet thanks you!)


If you are really looking for something to occupy your winter time and empty your wallet, learn to build your own wheels. Before you know it, you'll have the wheel building bug and you will have three times as many wheel sets as bikes. :thumbsup: 

To get started, go to the Wheels & Tires section and read Post #3 of this sticky:

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/wheels-tires-faq-helpful-tips-328429.html


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## tomato coupe (Nov 8, 2009)

DaveG said:


> Upgrading tires would be a far better investment. Even cheaper, finding a slightly more aero position on the bike


I don't think there's a rule that you have to chose between those options and pulley wheels.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

[B said:


> DaveG[/B]]Even cheaper, finding a slightly more aero position on the bike.


I'm already riding in the most aero position ever found by man, but I can only keep it up for like an hour or two...


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

PoorInRichfield said:


> I'm already riding in the most aero position ever found by man, but I can only keep it up for like an hour or two...


Ha! I could only keep up an aero position like that for about 5 minutes before I'm in pain.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tomato coupe said:


> I don't think there's a rule that you have to chose between those options and pulley wheels.


There are no rules. Everybody is free to invest their time and $$ how they wish. Dave G was simply stating that the return on his investment would be greater with his suggestions - that is if the objective was to go faster.


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

tomato coupe said:


> I don't think there's a rule that you have to chose between those options and pulley wheels.


I don't see where anyone said there was a rule.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Campy Chorus here. I clean and lube the pulleys on a regular basis. They spin fine. My advice: ungunk your pulleys every once in a while.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

SPlKE said:


> Campy Chorus here.


Shimano pulleys don't spin freely gunked or ungunked. I think it's the one place where Shimano engineers decided, "Meh, this is good enough".


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

PoorInRichfield said:


> Shimano pulleys don't spin freely gunked or ungunked. I think it's the one place where Shimano engineers decided, "Meh, this is good enough".


Spinning freely is overrated.


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

PoorInRichfield said:


> Shimano pulleys don't spin freely gunked or ungunked. I think it's the one place where Shimano engineers decided, "Meh, this is good enough".


I think its more a function of their low mass. It doesn't take much friction to slow them down because there is so little spinning mass. Compare that to your wheels (which probably have more friction); you can spin then and they will go for quite a while


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

PoorInRichfield said:


> That's only because derailleur pulleys have no voice and have been repressed for decades. Riders are falsely leading us to believe that their own talent, training, and physical ability is the reason for their winning races when the truth is that the unsung hero, the derailleur pulley (with ceramic bearings), is the real secret to winning. It's time we stop this madness and let the truth be known!!! Who's with me!?!?!



Amen!


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

DaveG said:


> I think its more a function of their low mass. It doesn't take much friction to slow them down because there is so little spinning mass. Compare that to your wheels (which probably have more friction); you can spin then and they will go for quite a while


Yup. The seals add enough friction to prevent pulleys from freely spinning. 
And that friction from the seals is..... ~0.05 watts (or less).


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

tlg said:


> Spinning freely is overrated.


This. I would be surprised if you even lose 0.05W.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

cxwrench said:


> And obviously this should be in 'components/wrenching' not here.


My pulleys identify as general topic pulleys....


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Lombard said:


> This. I would be surprised if you even lose 0.05W.


I was being generous with 0.05w as an absolute worse case. Which is why I said ~0.05 watts (or less).
I was looking at a Friction Facts study on BB30 bearings. The average friction loss for low contact seals was 0.01w (using oil) to 0.055w (using grease). Worst tested was 0.08w (using grease). 

Granted that's larger BB30 bearings. But a small pulley bearing with full contact seals using grease could maybe see 0.05w. 

In any case.... in takes an absurdly low amount of watts to keep your bearings from freely spinning.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Srode said:


> My pulleys identify as general topic pulleys....



I only find the finest Free Range Organic pulleys, and lovingly feed them the best inorganic-free lubricant.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Marc said:


> I only find the finest Free Range Organic pulleys, and lovingly feed them the best inorganic-free lubricant.


Did somebody say: ProLink? It's got what pulleys crave. ProLink... The 0.05 watt pulley drag mutilator.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

Pulleys have been kept in chains too long. Free pulleys!


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

I hear tell that the Pitbull Pedals skunkworks has designed a revolutionary new pulley which changes everything. It will be called the Pitbull Pushy.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

SPlKE said:


> I hear tell that the Pitbull Pedals skunkworks has designed a revolutionary new pulley which changes everything. It will be called the Pitbull Pushy.


It will be the fastest pulley ever.......just like Pitbull Pedals!


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

Isn't there a thread on this forum about jockey wheel with large diameter spotted during TDF recently? If the pros use it then it must be... :ihih:


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## Clipped_in (May 5, 2011)

"Lighten your wallet and save some watts" is a very common mantra in road cycling. Which is especially silly considering the vast majority are just riding around.

It's good for the industry, however, and I like having a lot of choices. It just quickly gets out of hand when you get a group of recreational cyclists together. And when it does, the elitist stigma gets in the way of advancing the sport.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

bvber said:


> Isn't there a thread on this forum about jockey wheel with large diameter spotted during TDF recently? If the pros use it then it must be... :ihih:


Ginormous jockey pulleys. Wasn't that in a Factory Feel troll thread?


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

*SAVE THE PULLEY WHEELS CAMPAIGN 2020*










*WHY THE “SAVE THE PULLEY WHEELS” CAMPAIGN?*

For decades, pulley wheels have been the unsung heroes of nearly every major and unheard of bike race across the world. (Most bike races are unheard of, but that's besides the point.) Ever since the "Simplex" rear derailleur was invented in 1928 by Lucien Charles Hippolyte Juy, derailleur pulleys have selflessly helped bicyclists win races and _get none of the glory_. (Bullsh#t!) The riders get all the kisses from the podium girls, but the pulleys get nothing but dirt, mud, grime, and over-priced chain lube or wax. 

Riders claim that pulley wheels, especially the over-sized, anodized aluminum ones with carbon cages, do not save any watts and in no way contribute to their race wins. Oh, really?!?!?!

This has to stop. It will stop now. Join the cause!

*ACTIVISM*

I will distribute my pile of cheap Allen wrenches collected over the years to mischievous kids at various bicycle races. I will tell the kids to remove the pulley wheels from the racer’s bicycles when they’re not looking, then demand a ransom to get them back. 

Good luck winning a race with no pulley wheels, suckas!

*AWARENESS*

For only $20, I will consider sending you a cheap, brown plastic bracelet to make you feel good about supporting the cause, even though the bracelet nor the money you sent me will actually do any good. 

Each bracelet contains the “SAVE THE PULLEY WHEEL, YO” slogan in a *disgusting brown color* that represents the dirt and grime that pulley wheels have to live with each day. Wear it with pride!


















*RESEARCH*

When the bogus GoFundMe page (see below) reaches the first goal of $1,000, I will buy myself the most insanely expensive set of pulley wheels I can find… probably from CeramicSpeed.com. I will then put it on my bike, tell all my friends about it, and post pictures all over the Interwebs of how cool my bike looks with my new toy. I will also do my best to determine if they make any real difference over the stock pulley wheels… probably using an Excel spreadsheet with lots of graphs and fake data.









Who cares if they don't work?!?! Just look at 'em!?!?! So baller... so bling...

*OUTREACH*

I called Lance Armstrong to see if he could help the campaign. He did not answer the phone or return my calls. Until he does, I’m going to use his likeness from some 10 years ago to promote the cause for as long as I can before he sues the pulley wheel charity.










*WE NEED YOU!*

How can you help this pointless cause? Start by giving your hard-earned cash to the bogus GoFundMe page, then tell all your friends what you did on social media. You’ll feel good knowing you’ve done very little to change the world for the better.* 

* Like most charities, almost all of your contributions will go to administrative expenses (i.e., my pocket) and only by accident will some of the money actually be used to promote the cause.

If you’re super crazy, sell all your multi-gear bikes and join the fixie bike craze. One gear = no pulley wheels! (And no brakes, which is another cause I plan on promoting as time allows).

*Go forth and save the pulley wheels!* (And send me your money... I except cash and PayPal sent as a "gift" so you can't get your money back.)


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Holy crapolies, PoorInRichfield! This is too funny!!!


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

Lombard said:


> Holy crapolies, PoorInRichfield! This is too funny!!!


Post of the year nomination material right there man!


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## Retro Grouch (Apr 30, 2002)

The bracelet should have been red not brown. 

Everyone knows that red is the fastest color.


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## bvber (Apr 23, 2011)

PoorInRichfield said:


>





Lombard said:


> Holy crapolies, PoorInRichfield! This is too funny!!!


Would've been better if he found a pic of podium dude pulling away at the last split second so that the two podium gals' lips meet. :devil:


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## azpeterb (Jun 1, 2006)

Srode said:


> My pulleys identify as general topic pulleys....


These days it's best not to designate a category for your pulleys, but rather to let them develop their own purpose at a pace and time that they choose for themselves. Society should not force them into stereotypical pulley roles....we need to allow pulleys the freedom to know themselves fully without being restricted by social constraints.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

Maybe I need to send a link to this thread to Kogel... it appears that they didn't get the memo...

BIKERUMOR! Kogel Kolossos oversized derailleur pulley cage offers colossal stiffness & low friction


According to the article, it's not about the friction, it's all about "stiffness" :blush2: My experience tells me that friction leads to stiffness, or is that....


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## cxwrench (Nov 9, 2004)

PoorInRichfield said:


> Maybe I need to send a link to this thread to Kogel... it appears that they didn't get the memo...
> 
> BIKERUMOR! Kogel Kolossos oversized derailleur pulley cage offers colossal stiffness & low friction
> 
> ...


I'm gonna go ahead and agree w/ this :arf:


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

When I was out in my garage a few hours ago taking pics for the Workspace Wednesday thread, I looked at my pulleys quite disdainfully.

I think they got the message.


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Dammit, I want to rep PoorInRichfield again!



> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PoorInRichfield again.


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## Srode (Aug 19, 2012)

PoorInRichfield said:


> According to the article, .......... it's all about "stiffness"


My wife agrees, but also reinforced size matters ......


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Dammit, I want to rep PoorInRichfield again!


Repped!


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

If you want to ride the lowest friction pulleys... ride single speed!


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## PBL450 (Apr 12, 2014)

I kind of feel like I have to...

https://www.kogel.cc/collections/ceramic-derailleur-pulleys


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

PBL450 said:


> I kind of feel like I have to...
> 
> https://www.kogel.cc/collections/ceramic-derailleur-pulleys


Don't budget group sets on Wal-Mart bikes have pulleys this size?


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## ROAD&DIRT (Mar 27, 2009)

Lombard said:


> It will be the fastest pulley ever.......just like Pitbull Pedals!


:crazy:...:frown2:


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Lombard said:


> Don't budget group sets on Wal-Mart bikes have pulleys this size?


Yes, and the high-end walmart bike-shaped objects have pulleys forged out of a single piece of gas pipe.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

I have made note of the watts I can save with oversized pulley wheels. But being the smart consumer I am I have paid a wind tunnel thousands of dollars to test them to verify these saved watts are not offset by interior aerodynamics. Also researching the impact of weight difference on watts

So I might end up returning them and using the money for a rack, fenders and a pizza instead.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I have made note of the watts I can save with oversized pulley wheels. But being the smart consumer I am I have paid a wind tunnel thousands of dollars to test them to verify these saved watts are not offset by interior aerodynamics. Also researching the impact of weight difference on watts
> 
> So I might end up returning them and using the money for a rack, fenders and a pizza instead.


I hope you also calculate your pedal clip-in/clip-out speed. 

Between frictiony pulleys and time-consuming clip-ins, I don't know which of these foibles has cost more racers a chance to bump cheeks with podium girls.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

SPlKE said:


> I hope you also calculate your pedal clip-in/clip-out speed.


I got that covered.

1.2 seconds with shimano.

But since switching to Pitbull I've decreased that time by 1.4. The are so quick that time goes backwards. They're clipped in .2 before I even try.


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## SPlKE (Sep 10, 2007)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I got that covered.
> 
> 1.2 seconds with shimano.
> 
> But since switching to Pitbull I've decreased that time by 1.4. The are so quick that time goes backwards. They're clipped in .2 before I even try.


I read somewhere that before Lance was on The Dope, it would sometimes take him nearly an hour to clip in. Not gonna win any TdF's that way, Lance!

Pitbull pedals are the clean alternative to going on The Dope.

Tagline idea: _If you want to win races... See your Pitbull Pedal man... not the Pusher Man._


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## Lombard (May 8, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I got that covered.
> 
> 1.2 seconds with shimano.
> 
> But since switching to Pitbull I've decreased that time by 1.4. The are so quick that time goes backwards. They're clipped in .2 before I even try.


Wow, this is awesome! Pitbull needs to come out with some wheels. I'm sure they would be so fast, the bike will start moving before I even get on it.


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## PoorInRichfield (Nov 30, 2013)

Someone needs to tell Ollie from GCN that big jockey wheels are big because they make big gains...


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