# Consensus on tubeless?



## Wesquire (May 27, 2015)

Just read this article: Schwalbe claims tubeless tires are future of road cycling | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos

I've never even seen a road tubeless tire. Do you think they are competitive at this point?Do you think they still need more development?


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

I've ridden nothing but tubeless tires for the past 3 years, so yes, I would say they are there. I've run them in training and road races of all types. I don't see the point in tubes, other than to keep rolling on the occasion a tubeless tire has a puncture that sealant won't address, which happens to me a few times each year. Most of the objections I hear about tubeless are rooted in myth. I know several people in my area in San Diego that have been tubeless for years, but for whatever reason they are not mainstream. I honestly don't understand why pros wouldn't use them on flat road stages in the TdF to reduce the hassle of wheel changes and chasing back on, and the risk of flatting near the finale and losing time. I can understand using tubulars in climbing stages because that's still the lightest setup.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Ask a question on politics or religion, you'll get less fanaticism than asking about the merits of things like tubeless tires or road disc brakes 

Seriously though, I'd recommend you read the bazillions of articles and threads out there that talk about the pros and cons of tubeless tires and make the call based on your situation.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Been running Hutchinson Sector 28mm tubeless on my HED Belgium+ wheelios since I had them built. Front refused to really hold air overnight that well, retaped and retaped to no avail. Switched the front to a tubed Schwalbe One 28mm, can't tell much of a difference in ride....other than not needing to refill my front tire every damn day.

In addition to being $100USD/tire if you support the local Good Guys...the tubeless tires larger than 23mm are almost never available Amazon Prime, in addition to being more expensive. And having tires that are double the cost adds up when you're racking in miles every month.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

get off my lawn!


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## Kristatos (Jan 10, 2008)

4 posts in and tubeless myth #1 appears - that they are like double the cost of tubed tires. Shop around yourself, even at my LBS the Schwalbe One Tubeless are only about 10% more than a Conti GP4000. I would agree that selection of tubeless tires is poor - there isn't enough demand for them to be offered in all versions and sizes. Some brands may put a bigger premium on tubeless than others but there are plenty of great options out there that are affordable such as IRC, Schwalbe, Bontrager, etc.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Kristatos said:


> 4 posts in and tubeless myth #1 appears - that they are like double the cost of tubed tires. Shop around yourself, even at my LBS the Schwalbe One Tubeless are only about 10% more than a Conti GP4000. I would agree that selection of tubeless tires is poor - there isn't enough demand for them to be offered in all versions and sizes. Some brands may put a bigger premium on tubeless than others but there are plenty of great options out there that are affordable such as IRC, Schwalbe, Bontrager, etc.


I do shop around. LBS charges $109+tax for 28mm Hutchinson Sector which is B&M retail. Which is double what readily available tubed tires are in the same size from B&M. Remember how I said "if you support the good guys" (LBS)?

The larger sized tubeless tires aren't Prime for lord knows (but the tubed are) what reason so you have to pay shipping as well and it takes forever....you can resort to people like World Class Cycles that sell them cheap, but their CS is some of the worst I've dealt with...and it takes them forever to process and ship an order.


And all that for...what exactly?


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## 92gli (Aug 27, 2009)

Marc said:


> And all that for...what exactly?


For what? No friggen wire or glass punctures. No sitting on the side of the road getting eaten by bugs while changing a tube. Less leakdown between rides. Lower pressure without worrying about a pinch flat if i hit the edge of a manhole cover or something. 

My bontrager tires were $55 each from my local "good guys". But I would have ordered Ones for a few bucks more from a "bad guy" if they didn't have stock.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

92gli said:


> For what? No friggen wire or glass punctures. No sitting on the side of the road getting eaten by bugs while changing a tube. Less leakdown between rides. Lower pressure without worrying about a pinch flat if i hit the edge of a manhole cover or something.
> 
> My bontrager tires were $55 each from my local "good guys". But I would have ordered Ones for a few bucks more from a "bad guy" if they didn't have stock.



3 weeks weeks ago, puncture on my state cycling tour. Guess what? Sealant didn't seal it. Guess what? I was at the side of the road getting eaten by bugs putting a tube in the tire. Ride quality was abysmal for the rest of the tour-because tubeless tires run like crap with tubes in them due to the necessities of making the tire stiff and strong enough...and tubeless tires are a niche product SAG doesn't carry spares of. I ran lower pressure too, have minorly damaged my rim due to bad roads as a result (was able to machine out some track damage with Dremel). You hit something like a manhole cover or a speed bump running such low pressures, instead of pinch flatting you'll damage your rim. Between the two, I'd rather be pissed at a pinch flat than at damaging a $100-200 rim.

I'm sorry. Tubeless tires are the fruit of God and infallible. 


Try being honest about how things are IRL. I am.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

92gli said:


> For what? No friggen wire or glass punctures.


You may find it hard to believe, but since I started running latex tubes 6 years ago, I pull wires and thorns out of my tires without ever getting a flat. No pinch flats either. A big piece of glass will make a hole, but Conti tires are nearly impervious to that. 

I can run all the good tires, easy on-off. No sealant to deal with, but if you want you can stick it in the tube. No problems getting the tire to seat and seal. Cheaper. Lighter weight. Lower rolling resistance. 

Tubeless should die IMO. And we can go back to rims designed for tubes!


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

rruff said:


> You may find it hard to believe, but since I started running latex tubes 6 years ago, I pull wires and thorns out of my tires without ever getting a flat. No pinch flats either. A big piece of glass will make a hole, but Conti tires are nearly impervious to that.
> 
> I can run all the good tires, easy on-off. No sealant to deal with, but if you want you can stick it in the tube. No problems getting the tire to seat and seal. Cheaper. Lighter weight. Lower rolling resistance.
> 
> Tubeless should die IMO. And we can go back to rims designed for tubes!


+1. Road tubeless is a solution looking for a problem. They make sense for mtb, though. By the way, a new road tire from Schwalbe will have to go through a few recalls before they get their manufacturing quality control issues worked out. Their mtb tires are good, but their road tires are always plagued by issues.


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## andy13 (Aug 22, 2008)

Another supporter of tubeless road tires here. I have been running tubeless for 3 years with one flat. Numerous cuts and 'punctures' sealed successfully. Love running pressure in the 80's on rough asphalt. Sectors are expensive, but I love the way they ride. Looking forward to trying the Schwalbe Pro One's. I understand why people don't get it but I dove in and have never looked back.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Marc said:


> 3 weeks weeks ago, puncture on my state cycling tour. Guess what? Sealant didn't seal it. Guess what? I was at the side of the road getting eaten by bugs putting a tube in the tire. Ride quality was abysmal for the rest of the tour-because tubeless tires run like crap with tubes in them due to the necessities of making the tire stiff and strong enough...and tubeless tires are a niche product SAG doesn't carry spares of.


1) In this case you would have been on the side of the road getting eaten by bugs even if you were using a tubed tire. Tubeless just usually makes flats much less likely.

2) Didn't you or support have a simple vulcanizing patch kit for fixing the tire at the next convenient time?

3) You always had the option of throwing on a tubed tire if the ride was too harsh.


In short, you're blaming the technology (which I will freely admit has some big cons) for this bad experience instead of the fact that you were apparently just ill prepared for your tour in terms of supplies and/or operational understanding WRT to tubeless.

As I said in my earlier post, if you are considering going tubeless you need to do your homework and know what you're getting into.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

cooskull said:


> 1) In this case you would have been on the side of the road getting eaten by bugs even if you were using a tubed tire. Tubeless just usually makes flats much less likely.
> 
> 2) Didn't you or support have a simple vulcanizing patch kit for fixing the tire at the next convenient time?
> 
> ...


Vulcanizing patch didn't hold air

Lots of hassle, not much better reliability, more on road mess...and all that for a not that much better a ride IME. And to boot (heh) tires are more expensive, either quite a bit or a lot depending on where and what you buy.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

You can run tubeless, but there is no consensus. None of my road wheels are tubeless & I'm good with that.


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## twinkles (Apr 23, 2007)

Marc said:


> You hit something like a manhole cover or a speed bump running such low pressures, instead of pinch flatting you'll damage your rim. Between the two, I'd rather be pissed at a pinch flat than at damaging a $100-200 rim.
> 
> .


I'd always wondered about rim damage, but was too lazy to ask about it. Thanks for the information. How difficult is it throwing a tube in a flatted tubeless in cold weather?


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## ridesmasterx (Aug 3, 2013)

Since I have very few flats anyhow, I see no reason to the carry the weight of the sealant plus a spare tube I case it doesn't work. Not resistant to change, I just don't see the reasoning behind it all.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

twinkles said:


> I'd always wondered about rim damage, but was too lazy to ask about it. Thanks for the information. How difficult is it throwing a tube in a flatted tubeless in cold weather?



Depends on how hard your rims are to mount tires on. It is simply messy, as you can never get all the sealant out easily, remove tubeless valve and shove tube in remount bead and inflate. Same as a tube tire, just with more mess.

If you're a featherweight maybe you don't risk rim damage as much. I'm not that heavy but being a 180# male riding 28s (measure 32mm when inflated) at 80-85PSI, I did bottom out a tubeless on a speed bump at relatively slow speeds and while I didn't pinch flat which was nice I did bend the brake track edge a bit such that it needed a light Dremel machining.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

ridesmasterx said:


> Since I have very few flats anyhow, I see no reason to the carry the weight of the sealant plus a spare tube I case it doesn't work. Not resistant to change, I just don't see the reasoning behind it all.



Also have few flats [until tomorrow now that I typed that].

I have one tubeless road wheel setup, [have several tubeless wheels/rims using tubes due to clincher inventory of non tubeless tires]

To me, I carry two tubes with either tube or tubeless as I do a lot of longish treks. It is about a wash as far as weight, tire/sealant VS tire/tube/rim tape. My tubeless need no rim tape, add weight of valve. yada

I can and do run a smaller tubeless tire than tube setup slight weight advantage maybe = to valve. Rear tire will wear faster being smaller. Again all close enough to call a wash otherwise.

I had a self sealing front the other day, unusual as when I do flat it seems to be the rear more. 

Think I will get bigger tubeless tire when these are worn to that point. Only real fear is if I do flat the mess to clean and deal with if i have to use a tube...

I carry a patch kit either way, if i put in a tube and then get a flat I may have to fox that one. When I have a rear tire getting long in the tooth, I carry a new tire waiting for that last flat and will put on the new tire along with the new tube, this with the non tubeless obviously.

I started running latex tubes and sealant in my tubed setup, so add that.

Really don't perceive much difference ultimately, some of my clinchers cost as mush as the tubeless tires cost, so again little difference overall.

Folks fuss too much about it. Although my pre conception of higher pressure tubeless on road VS MTN. Loosing enough air prior to a self seal and having to attend pressure before continuing has not come to fruition just yet, again.. net difference not being seen so far. I have not worn out my first tubeless tires yet, so limited experience really...


I should add re:mounting ease or lack there of, I do carry levers. And I use them if i need to. I have not needed them going on, but use coming off to speed things up.
I have hulk Hogan hands I should mention...


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Competitive?
Hardly.

Check out the weight of the tire, and then take into account that the tires are not very supple. They might be fine for touring, or general riding, but they are just too stiff for any sort of competition.

PS. I've over 5500 miles so far, and have had zero flats on the road.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

In working with Stan's sealant I see huge globs of congealed sealant in the tires. Huge, as in a porous mass the diameter of a road tire and 2" long. I've seen similar in mtb tires. What's left is a very thin liquid that I suspect has little in the way of sealing properties. And this was after only a few months after initial installation. What has been your experience?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

looigi said:


> In working with Stan's sealant I see huge globs of congealed sealant in the tires. Huge, as in a porous mass the diameter of a road tire and 2" long. I've seen similar in mtb tires. What's left is a very thin liquid that I suspect has little in the way of sealing properties. And this was after only a few months after initial installation. What has been your experience?


How did you do the initial inflate (once sealant loaded)? CO2 I presume?

If so use an air compressor instead. I only got hairballs when I used CO2, due to thermodynamics.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Competitive?
> Hardly.
> 
> Check out the weight of the tire, and then take into account that the tires are not very supple. They might be fine for touring, or general riding, but they are just too stiff for any sort of competition.


Actually not true. I raced tubeless for a few seasons and they were great for corner grip provided you ran the pressure low enough.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

As you can see, there is no consensus. I run them and like them. I have had to insert a tube one time on road side, and it was fine, but messy. If there is a drawback for me it is in the limited tire selection.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

The thing that put me off them was installation, I know its not that much time but the benefits did not out weigh the annoyances. The tires were hard to mount and hard to change which means I was never comfortable sending my wife out on a set by herself so that mean that training on them was out. 

I could not race cross on them since I'm too heavy and tubulars work better. 

On some of the rims I tried mounting them on they either would never seal properly or if they got too low in pressure they would unseat and leak sealant.

At some point I just got tired of dealing with them.

Anyone want to buy some used tires?


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

I love tubeless for XC and CX, but I'm not in a hurry to use them on the road, mostly because I don't like the available brands and models.


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## pablotn (Oct 11, 2008)

Long time tubeless rider on Shimano C24 CLs using Hutchinson Fusion 3 23mm and while using them had no real issues other than some install difficulty. Sealant worked as intended and had a couple of times where it saved my ride. Ride quality was sublime IMO and was sold.

Fast forward and I decide I want to run 25mm setups. This is where my particular problems started with consistent flats and tire failures (bubbles forming underneath tread) and just overall PIA factor. After having to repair a tire on a long and hot century, dealing with sealant spewed all over my bike, installing tube, etc, I said "enough". I even returned some tires to my reseller because of defects.

I decided to switch back to the traditional clincher setup with Vittoria Paves, Conti Race tubes and have been very happy.

Of course mileage may vary and I have not tried the Schwalbe Ones and sound great, but I find the ride of my current setup to be very smooth and supple. I think clincher tech has advanced over the past few years with better tire tech and advanced carbon manufacturing.


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## honkinunit (Feb 13, 2005)

I started riding my Ultegra WH-6800 wheels with Schwalbe One 700x28 tubeless tires a month ago. Stans sealant.

I give the positives first: they ride nice. That's it.

The negatives:

1) Get a puncture on a hot day, and you are losing 20 psi at a minimum while it SPEWS spooge all over you, your frame, your wheels and your drivetrain. So you have to stop and put more air in the tire anyway. 

2) Now when you get home, you have to spend 30 minutes cleaning the bike and another 30 minutes removing/cleaning/patching/reinstalling and attempting to inflate the tire again. 

3) As mentioned, the initial installation is a BI&&TCH.

4) Tires are more expensive.

5) My only experience is with the Schwalbe Ones, but seriously, after a couple of rides they had so many cuts they looked like a journeyman boxer who went 15 rounds with Tyson in his prime. My usual Continentals don't look like that. 

6) They lose enough air every night that they MUST be inflated every time you ride. 

7) Break a valve? You are screwed. Get out your tube and try to put it in through the goop. 

8) You now have to carry two steel cored tire levers instead of a simple QuikStik. 

9) You don't have to buy tubes any more, but you now have to buy sealant and spare valve stems. 

Bottom line? Screw this. I put my other wheels on, and I'm going back to tubes. When I get an hour, I'm dumping the tubeless setup from the Shimanos.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Competitive?
> Hardly.
> 
> *Check out the weight of the tire,* and then take into account that the tires are not very supple. They might be fine for touring, or general riding, but they are just too stiff for any sort of competition.
> ...


While many tubeless tires are relative boat anchors, there are several "race-day" tubeless models (Hutchy Atom, IRC Formula PRO light, Maxxis Padrone TR and Schwalbe One Pro) whose weight are competitive with light tubed clinchers + light butyl/latex tubes. Personally I stick with the boat anchors cause I'm more of an endurance type of rider.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

looigi said:


> In working with Stan's sealant I see huge globs of congealed sealant in the tires. Huge, as in a porous mass the diameter of a road tire and 2" long. I've seen similar in mtb tires. What's left is a very thin liquid that I suspect has little in the way of sealing properties. And this was after only a few months after initial installation. What has been your experience?


I started out with Hutchy Protect'Air and that worked very well in terms of sealing punctures and longevity (I've live in a hot and arid environment), but that stuff is bloody expensive. I switched to Orange Seal 9 months ago and have had good luck with it too and it's 1/4th the price- no Stanimals present after 6 months of riding.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

stevesbike said:


> +1. Road tubeless is a solution looking for a problem.


+2. . Tried it like three years ago, and it was a mistake. The ride quality of my Vittoria Open Corsa Evos is superior and never a hassle. Tubeless Road = stupid. . Tubeless MTB? yes.


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

I've been riding them for years. About 10% of my local road racing club rides tubeless also. I've had one puncture that couldn't be sealed in 5 years of use. I think it will catch on eventually when more rims are offered, and more people learn the process. With the right components it's no more difficult than changing a tube. There are a lot of different rim shapes out there and some are more user friendly than others. Ideally there's 3 things I look for in a tubeless rim
1. The tubeless tire can be installed by hand with proper technique (valve area last).
2. The shape of the inside of the rim allows the tire to be inflated with a good floor pump. (this can be tough to find, but just takes practice for some rims)
3. The tire stays seated in the bead when it looses air. - This is expecially helpful if the tire was tough to inflate. It's convenient to be able to let the air out of a tire, add sealant throught the valve stem, and re-inflate. BUT, if the tire does not stay seated then it needs to be re-seated with a burst of air.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

I agree. They are fine for general riding, unless you get a hole that the sealant can't seal. Then they can be rather difficult to get seated again. (and a mess)
Yes, there are some expensive models that aren't boat anchors, but these are still too stiff for competition. (a little like Conti Gatorskins, and nobody would race on those)
The only benefit of racing on them is that you can run lower pressures, but that is one of the reasons that most people race on tubulars. Light weight, supple, and you can run lower pressures. If the road is rough, Conti's Comps fit the bill. If you're on a smooth Criterium course, Vittoria, or Veloflex tubulars give you an even more supple ride.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Not sure what "too stiff for competition" means, I raced them for 2 years in Masters, and that was in the early days of using the Stans conversion kit. Nowadays I run them on my Eastons EA90SL's and they work great during A group rides or flying down descents >50mph, same as any tubed tire.
My 2nd bike has tubes, but to tell you truth, the only difference I feel is running 82psi on 25's in the rear tubeless feels like ~92psi on 25's with tubes.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Been running ultremo and one tubeless for a couple of years. Only problem has been sealing at valve hole. Unseals periodically. Needs pumping every 3days. Did a rainy crit with techical downhill corners last weekend (Winfield) and they were superb. The ones are a bit stiffer than I'd like, a bit too much rubber vulcanized in, but show little wear and grip is superb. Looking forward to the pro ones.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Taking the downhill corners at Winfield on Tubeless tires, is worse than taking them on clinchers. Tubeless tires are as stiff as Gatorskins.


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## Tig (Feb 9, 2004)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Taking the downhill corners at Winfield on Tubeless tires, is worse than taking them on clinchers. Tubeless tires are as stiff as Gatorskins.


Maybe 23 or 25mm Gatorskins. 28mm Gatorskins are much more supple, as you'd expect or hope. I'm running 32's on my XC bike for a Roles Royce ride with go-cart like traction.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

carlosflanders said:


> Been running ultremo and one tubeless for a couple of years. *Only problem has been sealing at valve hole. Unseals periodically. *Needs pumping every 3days. Did a rainy crit with techical downhill corners last weekend (Winfield) and they were superb. The ones are a bit stiffer than I'd like, a bit too much rubber vulcanized in, but show little wear and grip is superb. Looking forward to the pro ones.


For your stem sealing issue, try putting a little bit of silicon caulk around the base of the stem next tire change. Make sure all surfaces are clean so the silicon will adhere well and that you don't over tighten the nut. Silicon is flexible enough so that a little movement won't break the seal, but yet not too strong a bond so that the stem is a PITA to take back off.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> I agree. They are fine for general riding, unless you get a hole that the sealant can't seal. Then they can be rather difficult to get seated again. (and a mess)
> Yes, there are some expensive models that aren't boat anchors, but these are still too stiff for competition. (a little like Conti Gatorskins, and nobody would race on those)
> The only benefit of racing on them is that you can run lower pressures, but that is one of the reasons that most people race on tubulars. Light weight, supple, and you can run lower pressures. If the road is rough, Conti's Comps fit the bill. If you're on a smooth Criterium course, Vittoria, or Veloflex tubulars give you an even more supple ride.


Hmmm I guess YMMV. I used to ride Conti GPS 4000s and to me my tubeless tires feel comparable in suppleness but a hell of a lot 'grippier'. I do weigh ~205lb so maybe my Clydesdaleness counteracts the tubeless stiffer walls somewhat. But I have little doubt as you say that today's tubeless don't compare to Vittoria or Veloflex tubulars.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

cooskull said:


> Hmmm I guess YMMV. I used to ride Conti GPS 4000s and to me my tubeless tires feel comparable in suppleness but a hell of a lot 'grippier'. I do weigh ~205lb so maybe my Clydesdaleness counteracts the tubeless stiffer walls somewhat. But I have little doubt as you say that today's tubeless don't compare to Vittoria or Veloflex tubulars.



That actually makes a good, well THE point. GP4Ks, as much as I like them are not particularly supple. Try a Open Vittoria CX or Pave with a Latex tube and then then the 4Ks after. Having one casing layer with 320TPI VS the 3 layers of lesser TPI make for a noticeably more supple ride. Empirically for me, not just internet static being repeated FWIW. 

I got into a Latex Tube experimental mode recently. Out of the tires I put them in the GP4Ks was the least noticeable as far a ride improvement. And along the lines of your conceptualization of rider weight/physics of gravity/weight added compliance, I both agree and got 10 on you.  

The most noticeable so far a Hutch Atom Comp 176 gram 23C I only use as a front after wearing a rear center to flat spot very quickly. Those ride nice even with butyl tubes, physics being easily understandable. 

Even a Pro 4 SC which is maybe more HD a tire? than the GP4 ride feel is better [more noticeably supple]. I have a few bike/frames that ride so well as to make it all kind of superfluous anyway.

Not to mention I test rode a 2013? Bianchi Infinito CV with 120 lb in 23C tires certainly with butyl tubes that was the most sublime road feel in my bike riding life. And my 2006 Roubaix also road feel never really needed bigger tires to improve ride quality.
The 2014 SL4 Roubaix which has come and gone already OTOH the opposite was true in my experience.

Yada


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

Tig said:


> . . . mostly because I don't like the available brands and models.


Reason for that is companies like Michelin and Vittoria realize that it's a silly fad for road biking and don't want to waste money investing in it.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

First flat for me running tubeless, and at the World Championships no less.
Had the tell-tale "soft-rear" going around one turn, after a pull at the front.
As I was loosening my skewer I noticed a 4-5mm gash dead-center (and Stans seeping from) of my very squared-off Schwalbe One, in fact I think it was the same gash I applied shoe-goo to about 3 months earlier but didn't have time to play Inspector Clouseau at the time.
Popped one bead off with the lever, checked the gashed area for sharp objects, removed the valve stem and put in my mouth-inflated new tube. Had to use the lever to pop the bead back on and filled 'er up...Even managed to jump on with the stragglers for the remainder.
Have a Michelin Pro 4 in a 25mm waiting to try until I source another tubeless tire on sale.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

cooskull said:


> Ask a question on politics or religion, you'll get less fanaticism than asking about the merits of things like tubeless tires or* road disc brakes *
> 
> Seriously though, I'd recommend you read the bazillions of articles and threads out there that talk about the pros and cons of tubeless tires and make the call based on your situation.


If you don't have hydraulic road disc, your bike is unsafe and should be dismantled immediately. 

One of the interesting things about road tubeless for me was that my non tubeless wheels lasted so long. In mtb, busting wheels from those trees that jump in front of you happens more often than I'd like. 

I got a set of Williams System 30 20/24 road wheels in 2010. I beat the piss out of them for yrs. To me, dirt, gravel and rocks on fire roads, just mean you have to pick a good line. 

So, my rear wheel finally gave out. Williams new rims are tubeless compatible. On my next tire swap, I am going to jump in. If I die from a blow out at 60 mph, I will post back here saying road tubeless is dangerous.


Oh, and Reagan was great, but I'm not to into that.

(the first sentence is sarcasm)


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Notvintage said:


> Reason for that is companies like Michelin and Vittoria realize that it's a silly fad for road biking and don't want to waste money investing in it.


Yet, their mtb divisions are full on into it.

Vittoria/Geax were early on in the tubeless ready mtb tires. Their stuff was good and continues to deliver. So, moving over to road tubeless would be a small sidestep. 

I want an Open Pave 25 mm in a road tubeless casing.


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## Notvintage (May 19, 2013)

ziscwg said:


> I want an Open Pave 25 mm in a road tubeless casing.


You gonna wait forever. They realize for MTB is makes sense; for the road it's silly unless you just want to try something " different."


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

Marc said:


> How did you do the initial inflate (once sealant loaded)? CO2 I presume?


Nope. Plain ol' air, both from compressor and with a floor pump. I've only rarely used CO2, and then only out on the road when handed to me by another rider impatient with me using my mini-pump.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> Taking the downhill corners at Winfield on Tubeless tires, is worse than taking them on clinchers. Tubeless tires are as stiff as Gatorskins.


You need to run appropriate pressure. About 70 psi for me. I ran ultremo tubeless last year and one tubeless this year and felt very confident. My handling skills do improve a bit each year as well though. I use Winfield as a reference.

I've ridden gator skins quite a bit and there is no way they can be compared to schwalbes. They are always pigs at any pressure.

That said, I think that schwalbe can definitely improve, I'm hoping the pro ones do the trick.


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## carlosflanders (Nov 23, 2008)

Just want to add- the pro winner at snake alley this year was running Hutchinson tubeless. Third place was running rubinos. Lots of folks were running pro4 28 mms. That race is all about downhill cornering.


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## AbnInf (Aug 16, 2014)

Tubeless has been around for awhile now and they just aren't catching on for road bikes. My only experience is riding with a guy who has them. His rear tire got a puncture, a bunch of sealant sprayed out and flew all over the rear of his bike. The leak stopped but his rear tire was still to low for another 40-whatever miles of riding. Pulled over so he could air it up and it took awhile because his valve was clogged with sealant and no one had anything to remove the valve core to clean it out. I could have swapped a tube faster. He was kind of embarrassed and pissed, talked about how much of a PIA it was to even mount the tires and said he was getting rid of them and going back to tubes. I think lot of people give rave reviews just to justify their purchase in their own mind.


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## triumph3banger (Jun 13, 2012)

I have been running Tubeless for 3 years niw, and have only had one flat where I had to use a tube, and that was my fault for not replenishing sealant. I can install the tires without levers, and inflate with a floor pump. I love the ride at 75-80 psi. Ksyrium SL's. Won't be going back to tubes, at least with these wheels.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

triumph3banger said:


> ...and that was my fault for not replenishing sealant. ...


Where does the sealant go that it needs to be replenished? I see big globs of congealed Stan's sealant in tubeless tires I've taken off. Is that it? Also, 2 oz of sealant weighs about 60gm. Is this cumulative each time you replenish the sealant?


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## triumph3banger (Jun 13, 2012)

looigi said:


> Where does the sealant go that it needs to be replenished? I see big globs of congealed Stan's sealant in tubeless tires I've taken off. Is that it? Also, 2 oz of sealant weighs about 60gm. Is this cumulative each time you replenish the sealant?


 At the time, i was using Stan's selant, which dries out over time. I was lazy and didn't add more. I have since switched to Orange Seal, which supposedly stays liquid longer. I think it's a good idea to remove the tire and remove the boogers after a few months, so you don't have unnecessary added weight. Not a big deal, just takes a little time.


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## looigi (Nov 24, 2010)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, after a couple of months I had a 2" long x 20mm diameter snotty blob in my road tire, and I've seen much bigger in MTB tires. I wondered if that was all the good puncture sealing stuff and if the remaining very thin liquid would do anything of value. Anyway, I've heard of Orange Seal and it sounds like an alternative worth investigating. There are others, Bontrager has their own likely private labeled stuff....


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

So after having my first tubeless flat ever on Thursday I still did the Saturday hammerfest with the same tubeless tire (with gash) and still tubed. Have to say it's a much harsher ride with a tube but that's not what it's made for and let me complete another ride.

Today I took off the tire and tube, cleaned the old slime from the rim (not much left), and mounted a Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tubeless in 25mm I forgot I had. 
Had to use a lever to mount it but I didn't have Stans so I mounted it dry and it was still holding air 6 hours later.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

looigi said:


> Where does the sealant go that it needs to be replenished? I see big globs of congealed Stan's sealant in tubeless tires I've taken off. Is that it?


Yes, that. remove that and then add more sealant



> Also, 2 oz of sealant weighs about 60gm. Is this cumulative each time you replenish the sealant?


cumulative minus the dried booger you removed


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

triumph3banger said:


> At the time, i was using Stan's selant, which dries out over time. I was lazy and didn't add more. *I have since switched to Orange Seal, which supposedly stays liquid longer.* I think it's a good idea to remove the tire and remove the boogers after a few months, so you don't have unnecessary added weight. Not a big deal, just takes a little time.


I too have dump Stans. It used to be good, but their new "enviro" friendly formula does NOT seal well and goes to boggers faster. 

Orange Seal is it for me now. It still dries, but slower. You also get this orange layer on the tire when it dries. This actually helps your flat protection. I still remove it as it does add weight.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

tednugent said:


> Yes, that. remove that and then add more sealant
> 
> cumulative minus the dried booger you removed


My experience with Orange Seal (and Hutchy Protect'Air) is that 1oz per tire works fine. Very likely that if 1oz of goo isn't sealing your cut or puncture, then having another ounce in the tire to spit out probably isn't going to help but make things messier. 

Pros: Less weight sloshing around and less $ for sealant per tire
Cons: Probably have to be more diligent keeping the sealant topped off.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

I switched to tubeless (on the road) about a year ago after using it off-road for many many years. I love it.

I've been running Schwalbe One 23mm tires, which are okay. I'll likely try a different tire when these wear out. I prefer 25mm tires, but the 25mm Schwalbe tires were about $20 more per tire than the 23mm. I have Campy 2-way rims. The wheels and tire combo weight a little more than my old non-tubeless setup (American Classic) with most of the difference in the wheels which are about 80g heavier.

I've not flatted since switching over. It's hard to tell if I've been lucky to not flat, or if the sealant helped. However, in the spring during one particular road race more than half of the field flatted out due to goathead thorns on the road and I did fine.

My first experience with being "saved" by the sealant was in July. On a solo ride my bike suddenly started making a "bap, bap, bap" sound. I thought that I'd broke a spoke. I pulled over and found a roofing nail sticking out the middle of my tire. The tire was still completely inflated and all I could see was the head of the nail. I pulled the nail out and sealant started to spew out. I spun the tire and after maybe 10 rotations the spewing stopped an became a slow ooze. I still had descent pressure in the tire so I started slowly riding to see what would happen. After about a mile I stopped topped off the air with my pump, and then went back to riding normally. It's been over three weeks and other than topping off the air every week or so (as normal) I've had no issues. The sealants (a) prevented me from instantaneously flatting, (b) probably kept the nail from going through my rim's wall, and (c) allowed me to keep riding with about a minute of downtime. What's not to like?


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## christobevii3 (Jul 20, 2015)

Hutchinson intensive are really hard to install and undersized. Don't think possible to install by hand on kinlin xr31t. Compound seems pretty hard too. One of my intensives also had a faulty bead when installing and blew out into strands about 5 seconds after setting on the rim. The other two have been fine.

The schwalbe one 700x25's are much softer, sized closer to michelins, and easy enough to install by hand on a panceti sl23 v2. I will be definitely buying the schwalbe pro one when it comes out. 

No flats yet, I think i had one light poke on the schwalbe that sealed instantly. Just heard a small puff of air but no noticeable air loss while riding. They also ride a lot better than the hutchinson.

I did have a ride where the tape didn't hold up well with the heat and humidity in Louisiana. So I did get to practice putting in a tube with the schwalbe's and would say it shouldn't be much worse than a tight clincher. Used friends tubular tape since we were getting ready to leave when I had to deal with it. No problems since with stans tape.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

looigi said:


> Where does the sealant go that it needs to be replenished?


A large percentage of the sealant is liquid and it evaporates off over time. The solids in the sealant remain in the tire (usually adhering to the tire).



looigi said:


> Also, 2 oz of sealant weighs about 60gm. Is this cumulative each time you replenish the sealant?


The weight of adding more sealant is not accumulative. The liquid mass that evaporates is not retained by the tire. Also, once the inside of the tire is "coated" with the dry sealant less new "wet" sealant is needed in the tire. The coating of dry sealant on the tire seals any tiny holes in the tires that may already exist. The sealant that is added is to seal future flats, not to "re-seal" the tire. If you don't top off the sealant occasionally you can continue riding, but the puncture protection is no longer present.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

laffeaux said:


> ...The sealants (a) prevented me from instantaneously flatting, (b) probably kept the nail from going through my rim's wall...


Doubtful on that last part...

I'm a big fan of tubeless road. Just mounted up some Schwalbe One's, "23mm" tires measure about 26mm wide on my Nox A36D rims with an inner width of 20mm. They ride great.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

A genuine question -

I was riding with a guy who had a tubeless setup. He flatted and I went back to help him out since it seemed to be taking him a very long time. It turns out, with both him and me using our own sets of tire levers and our strength at the same time, we couldn't get his tires off the rim. We tried for 10 minutes and couldn't get it free. Eventually, he had to call his wife to drive 30 miles out to pick him up and he waited on the side of the road by himself until she came. 

Why did we have such a hard time getting his tire off? Is that a normal thing for tubeless? 

Honestly, changing a tube on a clincher takes under 2 minutes and you still have to carry all that crap with you if you're on a tubeless anyway, so it may just be me, but I don't get what the advantage is.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Corenfa said:


> A genuine question -
> 
> I was riding with a guy who had a tubeless setup. He flatted and I went back to help him out since it seemed to be taking him a very long time. It turns out, with both him and me using our own sets of tire levers and our strength at the same time, we couldn't get his tires off the rim. We tried for 10 minutes and couldn't get it free. Eventually, he had to call his wife to drive 30 miles out to pick him up and he waited on the side of the road by himself until she came.
> 
> ...


What rim and what tire? Was it a Stans conversion with a rim strip?

And, did you push the tire bead down into the center channel of the rim before trying to get the tire off?


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

It was a Shimano tubeless ready (don't recall the specific model nor specific tire). Having never dealt with a tubeless, I attempted to remove the tire the same way I always do. Roll the bead back, tire lever under (on my regular rims, I usually don't need a tire lever), and lever it out. Didn't work.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Corenfa said:


> It was a Shimano tubeless ready (don't recall the specific model nor specific tire). Having never dealt with a tubeless, I attempted to remove the tire the same way I always do. Roll the bead back, tire lever under (on my regular rims, I usually don't need a tire lever), and lever it out. Didn't work.


Yeah, you were doing it wrong  Lots of folks do who haven't used a tubeless rim before though, so don't feel bad. Whoever sold him those wheels should have walked him through the process...it's a little trick that makes a huge difference.

With a tubeless rim part of what makes it work is a tight fit between the tire and rim, and that's achieved by using a pair of flat shelves for the tire bead to sit on when inflated. When the bead is on those shelves it's stretched tight, and typically even when it goes flat the beads will stay locked in place on those shelves. Between the shelves is a deeper center channel, if you push the beads off the shelf into that channel the tire doesn't fit as tight and you have more slack to make it easier to get the tire on or off.

One other tip, when installing a tire start opposite the valve, and finish at the valve. The valve prevents the tire from getting down into the center channel, so you want that to be the last bit you have to pull over the sidewall.

When removing a tire, do the opposite - start at the valve. After you've pushed the entire bead down into the center channel.

You'll usually still need a tire lever, but one should get it, and it shouldn't be a colossal struggle.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Thanks. It doesn't surprise me that I did it wrong. 

It does make me beg the question - is this something I need? 

I've never pinch flatted. I do flat from punctures, but a tire change is quick and painless. 
To each their own, I guess, but I'm still quite content with my clinchers with tubes and my rim brakes (Oh wait, that's a different religious debate).


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

dgaddis1 said:


> Yeah, you were doing it wrong  Lots of folks do who haven't used a tubeless rim before though, so don't feel bad. Whoever sold him those wheels should have walked him through the process...it's a little trick that makes a huge difference.
> 
> With a tubeless rim part of what makes it work is a tight fit between the tire and rim, and that's achieved by using a pair of flat shelves for the tire bead to sit on when inflated. When the bead is on those shelves it's stretched tight, and typically even when it goes flat the beads will stay locked in place on those shelves. Between the shelves is a deeper center channel, *if you push the beads off the shelf into that channel the tire doesn't fit as tight and you have more slack to make it easier to get the tire on or off.*
> 
> ...


Two suggestions:
1) Only unseat the bead of one the tire sides at a time. Having only one bead in the center channel at a time gives it more room to stay in the lowest part of the channel thereby easing dismounting.
2) Relatively flat tires levers like the Park TL-4* make this task easier.


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## christobevii3 (Jul 20, 2015)

Which tires did he have? The Hutchinson are bad like that. The schwalbe aren't much worse than a clincher though. You do have to push the tire off the hook bead towards the middle of the rim first though. Also different tire levers can make a difference, but yeah shouldn't be much worse than a clincher.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

I posted previously, and confessed limited experience with tubeless. Well in the last week or so I have more experience beyond the first sealed puncture that I only know about when I saw some goo and bits of leaves stinking to it when I stopped for a viewpoint.

I ran over a plastic square that gets staples over tarp material over wood loads on flatbed trailers. Four points of 2 staples stapled the square onto the front tire. I was busy watching my ars crossing over to the felt turn lane on a busy non divided 55MPH highway. Looking up and not down, and the plastic clap clap clapping scared the sheit outta of me. Glad I did not grab too much brake when it was at the bottom....

Got the left done and pulled the plastic, turned the holy spot down and the sealant did what it was supposed to. Rode home, about 4 miles, and had only 45 lb in the 23C tire. Hutch Atom Tubeless. It was less squiggly than I though it would have been without topping if the pressure. I would have guessed i still had 60lb. And I am over 100k. But I probably rode weight back farther for the few miles home.

Anyway, next morning I found another hole. Guessing the pump up when I got home made that 5th hole leak even though it had sealed. I turned that spot down and pumped it back up and it is holding. I ordered some new tires, 6 holes is more than I trust it for... Fushion III this time. Luckily the perforated tire was the more worn one I moved to the front. Still can use the now rear with the new Fushion III.

Yada


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

Corenfa said:


> Thanks. It doesn't surprise me that I did it wrong.
> 
> *It does make me beg the question - is this something I need?*
> 
> ...


Definitely not, it's not something you need. 
Hell, ever since I switched from mostly mt bike to mostly road, the only thing tubeless is my main road bike. All of my mt bikes and road bikes are tubed.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

dgaddis1 said:


> With a tubeless rim part of what makes it work is a tight fit between the tire and rim, and that's achieved by using a pair of flat shelves for the tire bead to sit on when inflated.


With the shimano, it's more than just the shelf. Since they use a UST profile, they have an additional ridge that helps with locking the bead into the hook.

Removing a tire means you have to push it hard past the ridge on the UST


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## changingleaf (Aug 20, 2009)

That is not normal. 

Either it was a horrifically poor choice for a rim to use tubeless or you did not unseat the bead all the way around on both sides before attempting to remove it. Some rims can be difficult, but not that difficult.

Also, the correct technique helps considerably. Always remove the tire from the valve area first. The tire bead has to be centered in the channel of the rim during installation and removal. The valve sticks up in the center of the rim so if you remove that area first you will not have to stretch as far. If you try to remove that area last you will have the entire depth of the valve obstructing your ability to loosen the tire.


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## tednugent (Apr 26, 2010)

changingleaf said:


> That is not normal.
> 
> Either it was a horrifically poor choice for a rim to use tubeless or you did not unseat the bead all the way around on both sides before attempting to remove it. Some rims can be difficult, but not that difficult.
> 
> Also, the correct technique helps considerably. Always remove the tire from the valve area first. The tire bead has to be centered in the channel of the rim during installation and removal. The valve sticks up in the center of the rim so if you remove that area first you will not have to stretch as far. If you try to remove that area last you will have the entire depth of the valve obstructing your ability to loosen the tire.


While Mavic created the UST standard, they have been reluctant to use a UST rim profile on their road application, due to difficulties of installation and removal. Shimano did jump on it early on.










You can see that additional ridge found on the UST profile, that is lacking on other tubeless ready rims, particularly, the ones that went the Stan's route with the Bead Socket Technology.


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## christobevii3 (Jul 20, 2015)

What is the opinion on the 700x28mm Hutchinson? I have the 700x25 but it is undersized, hard to install, hard material (grips well for crits though), but does wear long so far. I like the Schwalbe 700x25 but almost gone till the new model comes out (easy to install like clincher and softer riding, true to size).

Also, person who is having a valve leak, that is going to be a tape job problem not valve. The air will leak into a rim wherever there is a bad part on the tape but will then leak out where the valve is fyi.

Thanks


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## tempeteOntheRoad (Dec 21, 2001)

Here is my limited experience with tubeless. I own several wheel sets and I am quite good at bike mechanic.
This is my first season using (NOS) Ultegra 6700 tubeless wheelset I got really cheap, looking to gain experience for myself. At the time I also got two Hutchinson Atom TL tires (23mm) That I thought where a little light for the task, and some sealant.

I did read a lot on Internet, watched a few videos about installation and went for it.

1) If you are worried about tight tires, do mount them with regular tubes and leave for a few days. (I did not see a real difference) What I did do, is mount them straight on with out sealant and left the tires sit for a few days... Not perceptible air loss! I was amazed.
2) At all time, when possible (albeit not on the side of the road) use soapy water to mount, re-mount tires.
3) Do make sure the valve and seal/block are pushed in so the tire seats well before tightening it with the screw ring.
4) I put sealant between the tire/rim before turning the wheel around and finishing putting the tire in place.
5) I use my old regular floor pump. Sometimes it takes a few stroke more than I would like, but it always works (remember soapy water)

So far, installation and cleaning/refilling as not taken me more time than putting in a tube (especially if I try to go too fast and pinch the tube &?!**!)

On the road: had a few small punctures sealed and loved the fact that it did what it was supposed to do. I put more air in and went off again. Then I had a larger cut, still sealable in my initial opinion... As I was doing a staged charity ride, I had to jump on after pumping some air during a fuel brake. It turns out I went like that for 480km; putting more air in and going about the stage, until at the last stage when the latex sealant ran out. The hole was too large to seal. I simply put a tube in and finished.

Since then, I also decided to stay away from ultralight tubeless tires. I got those wheels for a general training, all-around solid and dependable usage, so I replaced the light Atom with heavier Hutchinson tires. Since then, no problem.

Comfort/ride: I consider the Ultegra wheels to be a little harsh. When I first got them, I mounted identical tubes and Michelin ProRace4 and put in the same pressure as in my Dura-Ace C50 Clinchers. Ultegra are less comfortable in this comparison. But I must say that I do feel a much silkier ride on tubeless! Could it be in my head? I fell quite fast on tubeless anyway.

So my bottom line: I wish I could convert my C50 to tubeless (I will not though!) because I feel that if you know what you are doing, this system is excellent. (So far so good...)

I wish there where more of those rims without the spokes holes... I am reluctant to believe they will catch on because I cannot see average Joe dealing with sealant and soapy water. But then, average Joe cannot adjust his gears or change a breakpad, can he?


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## christobevii3 (Jul 20, 2015)

And after having good luck my Schwalbe tubeless 700x25 got split by an oyster shell open and leaked out and wouldn't seal. About 1" long split though. Girlfriend was at home a few blocks down so I just had her bring my Hutchinson intensive wheel to finish riding on.

Ordered another tire and a pair of 700x28mm hutchinson's till the new schwalbes come out.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

christobevii3 said:


> And after having good luck my Schwalbe tubeless 700x25 got split by an oyster shell open and leaked out and wouldn't seal. About 1" long split though. Girlfriend was at home a few blocks down so I just had her bring my Hutchinson intensive wheel to finish riding on.
> 
> Ordered another tire and a pair of 700x28mm hutchinson's till the new schwalbes come out.


I had a Schwalbe tubed One tire come molded wrong...srsly the tire had a lateral hop molded into it.

QC issues at Schwalbe? Wouldn't be the first time I suppose.

Check back with the Sectors after a while. I had issues with Sector 28mm tubeless tires splitting along the sidewall just above the bead, not fatally but enough to see and cause concern.


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## dgaddis1 (Sep 27, 2008)

Marc said:


> I had a Schwalbe tubed One tire come molded wrong...srsly the tire had a lateral hop molded into it.
> 
> QC issues at Schwalbe? Wouldn't be the first time I suppose.
> 
> Check back with the Sectors after a while. I had issues with Sector 28mm tubeless tires splitting along the sidewall just above the bead, not fatally but enough to see and cause concern.


I've had great luck with the Sectors. I did have a layer of rubber that wraps around the bead start to separate, but it wasn't a structural issue. Tires rode great, and on wide rims plumped out bigger than 28mm.


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## rplace13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Riding Sector 28s on my commuter, with Velocity Fusion rims, could not be happier. Had one large (guessing) puncture take about 5-8 seconds to close up while I kept riding. I was all smiles after it stopped leaking/hissing and just rode on. Who knows how many other flats I have avoided as the tires themselves have lots of small holes/cuts in them visually.

Have Schwalbe One Tubless on my November 34 Rail road rims. Very happy with grip, no punctures that I know of so far, but the ride at 80psi seems a bit hard/harsh over the previous Schwalbe ultremo zx with tubes at 110psi.

All the rest of the wheels I have are tubed or sew ups. Hard to say the tubeless is better. For sure more work to mount but that is one time thing. The latex is messy, but self sealing flats is pretty nice.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

Wesquire said:


> Just read this article: Schwalbe claims tubeless tires are future of road cycling | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos
> 
> I've never even seen a road tubeless tire. Do you think they are competitive at this point?Do you think they still need more development?


I have 5 years and over 20k miles on tubeless.

I won't ride anything else.

If you don't get flat tires, don't bother.

Your experience can be quite dependent on the tire and rim combo. The shimano rim is one of the more difficult to deal with.

If you have not changed a tubeless tire it is silly to go out and ride on one, just like it would be silly to go out and ride a tuned tire without practicing changing it.

I don't use soap and water to mount tires.

Easton has a very nice aluminum rim that is tubeless without tape.

I am not a fan of the orange seal. I didn't like the bontrager stuff. 

I think there needs to some work on sealants and consistency between tire and rim manufacturers.

However, even in the tubed tire real there can be quite a bit of difference in how difficult it is to mount and dismount a tire.

Do I think it is the future? I expect it to gain more steam and be more like mountain biking where it is more common but you still see a lot of tubes.


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## christobevii3 (Jul 20, 2015)

I got a pair of sectors in but mount just wide enough on my wide rims to rub slightly. I rode about 1/2 mile on one and the other is in the package if anyone wants a set cheap.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Aug 5, 2008)

I bought a pair of Sector 28's and love them. Recently had a hole that I wanted to patch, so went to remove them, and man what a PITA. I run them on UST rims, and the ridge inside makes it almost impossible to get the bead to come unseated. Anybody know a way to do this? With MTB tires there is a lot more tire to grip, but the with the 28's there's almost nothing to hold on to and I didn't want to use tools that will damage the tire. After weeks of messing with it I finally used a staple remover tool to get in there and wedge the bead off, but I'm afraid I damaged the bead as when I re-installed it blew off the rim at about 90 lbs. (Man, what a sound. Like a gun shot, hurt my ears. Wearing ear protection from now on when seating road tubeless) Anyone else ever have a road tubeless tire blow off the rim? The rims I run use rim strips, so I'm considering removing them and trying tape, but I'm worried that that may cause the tires not to bead right and not be safe. I suppose I should buy new wheels, but I hate to scrap these light UST wheels I already have.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Aug 5, 2008)

So, Stan's sells kits to upgrade any 700c clincher wheels, but Hutchinson has a small list of compatible wheels. Who to believe? How many of ya'll are running tubeless Hutchinson tires on wheels not listed by Hutchinson?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> So, Stan's sells kits to upgrade any 700c clincher wheels, but Hutchinson has a small list of compatible wheels. Who to believe? How many of ya'll are running tubeless Hutchinson tires on wheels not listed by Hutchinson?


So you want to ride on non tubeless rims with tubeless tires??? If so, this could be a gamble for you.

Stans was able to do this in the mtb world because the pressure was lower. There were still plenty of burps at mtb pressures. They were also a big hassle to deal with.

So, Road tubeless rims with road tubeless tires can work. Even then, good compatibility is not guaranteed. I tried to put a Hutchinson tubeless onto a Fulcrum 2way fit wheel and I could not get the bead to seat with a compressor, soap, swearing, and praying to the tubeless gods..


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## Asmodeus2112 (Aug 5, 2008)

ziscwg said:


> So you want to ride on non tubeless rims with tubeless tires??? If so, this could be a gamble for you.
> 
> Stans was able to do this in the mtb world because the pressure was lower. There were still plenty of burps at mtb pressures. They were also a big hassle to deal with.
> 
> So, Road tubeless rims with road tubeless tires can work. Even then, good compatibility is not guaranteed. I tried to put a Hutchinson tubeless onto a Fulcrum 2way fit wheel and I could not get the bead to seat with a compressor, soap, swearing, and praying to the tubeless gods..


Stan's sells kits with Hutchinson tires, tape and valve stems that they say will work on any 700c clincher. I'm curious if anyone has used these successfully on wheels not listed by Hutchinson just to get a feel for how difficult it is to find compatibility. I have been running all sorts of MTB tubeless since 2008, but just now trying it out on road. I have been running Sector 28's on Bontrager TLR wheels and I like the combo a lot, but I had one tire blow off (I believe due to a damaged bead), so I'm just reaching out to get a feel for how much success/failure people have had with different combos. IMO it seems pretty bold for Stan's to say any 700c clincher will work, but it's just a guess that I am hoping for find some data from others to test.


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## laffeaux (Dec 12, 2001)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> Stan's sells kits with Hutchinson tires, tape and valve stems that they say will work on any 700c clincher. I'm curious if anyone has used these successfully on wheels not listed by Hutchinson just to get a feel for how difficult it is to find compatibility.


I used a Stans kit on a pair of old (late 90s?) Mavic Open Pro rims. I was setting up a pair of Hutchinson Bulldog cyclocross tires. I had medium success. Everything would work fine for a month or so and then the tire would deflate, almost overnight, and spill Stan's on to the floor. The tire would easily reinflate and hold air for several weeks or months before failing. It's been several years since I did this. I'm not sure that I would have trusted the set-up on a 40+ mph downhill on pavement, but for relatively low speed trail riding it did fine.


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## purdyd (Jun 18, 2010)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> Stan's sells kits with Hutchinson tires, tape and valve stems that they say will work on any 700c clincher. I'm curious if anyone has used these successfully on wheels not listed by Hutchinson just to get a feel for how difficult it is to find compatibility. I have been running all sorts of MTB tubeless since 2008, but just now trying it out on road. I have been running Sector 28's on Bontrager TLR wheels and I like the combo a lot, but I had one tire blow off (I believe due to a damaged bead), so I'm just reaching out to get a feel for how much success/failure people have had with different combos. IMO it seems pretty bold for Stan's to say any 700c clincher will work, but it's just a guess that I am hoping for find some data from others to test.


A little search and you find a lot of people have done this. I converted some carbon rims using the tape.

However, at this point given the number of tubeless ready rims. I would just get a tubeless rim.

You will get flat tires with tubeless, just in my experience much fewer. The big slash punctures usually don't heal with sealant.

If you are having problems mounting, put the tire in the sun for a few minutes or you can find a rim where they will mount and inflate for a day, the will stretch,

If you can't get them to seat,

Make sure the valve is between the beads 

Take the valve stem out and inflate completely. This allows beads to push out and depending on the tire and rim may lock when deflated. a decent rim tire combo will do this with a decent floor pump.

If you use a compressor with the valv stem out and it won't seat, it is a poor tire or rim and move on. There is no reason given the selection today that you should not be able to find a reasonable tire and rim tubeless combo.


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## Asmodeus2112 (Aug 5, 2008)

Update to the Sector 28's. I've mounted them on tubeless ready mountain wheels without the rim strips with tape. Works great. Also mounted them on standard rims with tape, works great. But the Sectors are sort of in between higher pressure road tubeless and mountain tubeless and apparently getting known for mounting easily on most rims. I love how the tires feel. Tons of cornering traction and moderatly low rolling resistance. Supple ride. Compared to Conti Ultra Sport 28's they ride a touch slower but much nicer ride and traction. Austin has been chip sealing many of the roads I ride on, and it's taking a toll on the Sectors though. They were holding up well, but the little sharp rocks for the chip seal are starting to slice them. I have had several incidents that caused the tire to leak, but the sealant catches it around 40-60 lbs. Enough to get home on, but not enough to continue a training type ride. If it wasn't for the darn chip n seal I'd be happy, but now I'm taking them off a lot to patch them, which is messy. Probably have to go back to a stiff tubed puncture resistant tire, which will suck because I have really enjoyed the ride/traction of the Sectors.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Asmodeus2112 said:


> Update to the Sector 28's. I've mounted them on tubeless ready mountain wheels without the rim strips with tape. Works great. Also mounted them on standard rims with tape, works great. But the Sectors are sort of in between higher pressure road tubeless and mountain tubeless and apparently getting known for mounting easily on most rims. I love how the tires feel. Tons of cornering traction and moderatly low rolling resistance. Supple ride. Compared to Conti Ultra Sport 28's they ride a touch slower but much nicer ride and traction. Austin has been chip sealing many of the roads I ride on, and it's taking a toll on the Sectors though. They were holding up well, but the little sharp rocks for the chip seal are starting to slice them. I have had several incidents that caused the tire to leak, but the sealant catches it around 40-60 lbs. Enough to get home on, but not enough to continue a training type ride. If it wasn't for the darn chip n seal I'd be happy, but now I'm taking them off a lot to patch them, which is messy. Probably have to go back to a stiff tubed puncture resistant tire, which will suck because I have really enjoyed the ride/traction of the Sectors.


There are a few other 28c road tubeless tires on the market now (or will be shortly), it might be worth trying something new to see if your luck changes. Schwalbe One series and IRC Formula Pro RBCC or X-Guards are three that come to mind off the top of my head. Personally I've been running 25c IRC RBCCs and have found them to be very cut resistant from chip seal and off-road gravel.


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