# Steel guys - Lugs vs. Welded



## Jerry-rigged (Jul 24, 2009)

Steel question of the day - 

I see so many steel guys lusting over lugged frames, but I've got to ask-

What do lugs do for a steel frame, other than look cool?(and add about 1/10th lb  )

If you have two frames, same tubing, same geometry, but one is welded, the other has lugs, will you be able to tell which you are riding, without looking at the frame?

I guess part B to the question would be, does building with lugs give the builder any freedoms to using tubing that welders do not have? (giving the lug builder some advantage)

Thanks-


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

As someone who has both done brazing and welding (though not for bikes), I would say this: The main advantage I can see for lugs/brazing is that it allows the tube fit to be less critical. For a good welded joint on thin-wall tubing such as a bike, the tubes have to be notched/fishmouthed to the correct angle and fit together with basically no gap. A lug gives you some more wiggle room as you could (though I don't know if manufacturers actually do this) just cut the tube ends square and rely on the surface area of the brazed joint for strength -- the gap between the tubes would be hidden by the lugs.

Arguably, brazing a joint is also easier to do, and faster, than a good manual TIG weld. It might even be possible to braze the whole bike in one go -- assemble the bike with flux and brazing filler in the joints, mount in a fixture, and stick the whole works in a vacuum oven, and out pops a perfectly-brazed frame with no contamination.

Downsides are that extra little bit of weight, and the need to have different lugs for every different geometry frame that you need. Also, some materials can't be torch-brazed easily or with the strength of a good weld (like aluminum...not sure about Ti).

Asad


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Tom Kellogg of Spectrum Cycles answers HERE.


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## Lifelover (Jul 8, 2004)

The joining method is secondary at best. The joint has to be strong enough to bare the applied forces. Brazing, welding and lugs all provide this. 

It seems to me that lugs might simplify fit up but they limit special shaping. Not that it matters.


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## DY123 (Oct 5, 2006)

Asad, 

You could be correct for factory produced frames but definitely wrong for hand crafted American steel frames.

All of the steel builders I know build their frames with tight miters (lugged or TIG). I hold mine up to the light and make sure no light shines through. There are no 90deg cuts and the lugs are certainly not hiding any gaps. I think that is a common misconception. 

Another misconception is the one you brought up about build speed. The average custom hand built TIG bike takes 8 to 10 hours from start to finish. Custom hand built lugged frames take 25 to 50+ hours. 

Of course there are different builders that may take longer to build a detailed TIG frame or less time to build a simple lugged frame, but the important point to understand is that "Speed" is not the reason builders use lugs.........

Regarding the ride.......I doubt anyone could feel the difference between joining techniques. Beyond feel there is some data to suggest a lugged frame will last a bit longer because of the lower heat of silver brazing.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

asad137 said:


> As someone who has both done brazing and welding (though not for bikes), I would say this: The main advantage I can see for lugs/brazing is that it allows the tube fit to be less critical. For a good welded joint on thin-wall tubing such as a bike, the tubes have to be notched/fishmouthed to the correct angle and fit together with basically no gap. A lug gives you some more wiggle room as you could (though I don't know if manufacturers actually do this) just cut the tube ends square and rely on the surface area of the brazed joint for strength -- the gap between the tubes would be hidden by the lugs.
> 
> Arguably, brazing a joint is also easier to do, and faster, than a good manual TIG weld. It might even be possible to braze the whole bike in one go -- assemble the bike with flux and brazing filler in the joints, mount in a fixture, and stick the whole works in a vacuum oven, and out pops a perfectly-brazed frame with no contamination.
> 
> ...


This qualifies as the most incredible post of the month. The statement "cut the tube ends square and rely on the surface area of the brazed joint for strength -- the gap between the tubes would be hidden by the lugs" is preposterous. I can't imagine any frame, except for the most ancient, iron pipe utility frame from many decades ago, that might use this crude method. ANY 1/2 decent frame from the last five decades would have a tubing fit equaling any welded frame. Any frame that uses the lugs for the strength to hold it together is a timebomb. 

Your comment "Arguably, brazing a joint is also easier to do, and faster, than a good manual TIG weld." Arguably the physics of fusing the two types of joints might be close in time but did you consider the work necessary to get a lug ready for use and the cleanup of the lug edges afterwards? There are very good reasons that Tig took off for mass produced frames. Even prolific builders of hand built frames like Marinoni gave up lugs for Tig years ago. And I'll bet I know the main reason why.

I'm surprised some framebuilders haven't jumped all over your post.


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## bikesdirect (Sep 9, 2006)

Jerry-rigged said:


> Steel question of the day -
> 
> 
> If you have two frames, same tubing, same geometry, but one is welded, the other has lugs, will you be able to tell which you are riding, without looking at the frame?
> ...


This is a simple question with a simple answer which is: No


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> I'm surprised some framebuilders haven't jumped all over your post.


It's Labor Day weekend.


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## RJohn (Mar 24, 2009)

Who has ever seen chrome welds? To address the original question. My hand made lugged bikes ride better than my tig welded bike. Lugged bikes can use thinner gauge tubing because less heat is used to make the joint.


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## Richard (Feb 17, 2006)

I dunno. The wall thickness of the Dedacciai EOM 16.5 on my Masi is pretty darn thin.

That being said, I still prefer the ride quality of my Reynolds 531P tubed Falcon and my Columbus TSX Bertoni - both lugged and "prettier" than the Masi.


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

Marc said:


> It's Labor Day weekend.


What, they're all resting up from lug filing, pre and post brazing?


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> What, they're all resting up from lug filing, pre and post brazing?


It is also Sunday morning, and even Teh Lounje is dead today.


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

Jerry-rigged said:


> Steel question of the day -
> 
> I see so many steel guys lusting over lugged frames, but I've got to ask-
> 
> ...


They're just bikes. Ride 'em in the rain, salt, snow and crap to fully appreciate them.


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## george kraushaar (Jan 15, 2007)

I prefer the ride of my lugged steel frames over the Gunnar Roadie TIG welded frame I recently traded off. I had a chance to pick up a nice used Serotta TIG bike quite recently but passed on the TIG issue.


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## asad137 (Jul 29, 2009)

DY123 said:


> You could be correct for factory produced frames but definitely wrong for hand crafted American steel frames.
> 
> All of the steel builders I know build their frames with tight miters (lugged or TIG).


Thanks for your response -- like I said, lugs COULD be used to hide gaps, but I didn't know if bike builders actually _did_ do it that way. The OP was asking about potential advantages for lugs, and this was one that I thought of. 

Also, after reading the link Scooper posted and reading Mike T.'s response, I do have a better appreciation of how lugged bike frames are constructed. I didn't realize how much work goes into preparing lugs, and I did in fact neglect post-brazing cleanup into the total construction time (though if a builder were actually to use vacuum brazing instead of torch brazing, this cleanup wouldn't be necessary as parts come out of the vacuum oven shiny and clean.).

Asad


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## Mike T. (Feb 3, 2004)

george kraushaar said:


> I prefer the ride of my lugged steel frames over the Gunnar Roadie TIG welded frame I recently traded off. I had a chance to pick up a nice used Serotta TIG bike quite recently but passed on the TIG issue.


The ride difference was due to a few things, none of which would be related to how the tubes were joined.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

RJohn said:


> Who has ever seen chrome welds? To address the original question. My hand made lugged bikes ride better than my tig welded bike. Lugged bikes can use thinner gauge tubing because less heat is used to make the joint.


I find the opposite. My TIG rides much better then my lugged. Go figure. It's all about tube sets and geometry.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

Mike T. said:


> The ride difference was due to a few things, none of which would be related to how the tubes were joined.


Indeed...


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## barry1021 (Nov 27, 2005)

zank said:


> They're just bikes. Ride 'em in the rain, salt, snow and crap to fully appreciate them.


Best advice from a pro in the thread....


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## zank (Aug 4, 2005)

asad137 said:


> Thanks for your response -- like I said, lugs COULD be used to hide gaps, but I didn't know if bike builders actually _did_ do it that way. The OP was asking about potential advantages for lugs, and this was one that I thought of.
> 
> Also, after reading the link Scooper posted and reading Mike T.'s response, I do have a better appreciation of how lugged bike frames are constructed. I didn't realize how much work goes into preparing lugs, and I did in fact neglect post-brazing cleanup into the total construction time (though if a builder were actually to use vacuum brazing instead of torch brazing, this cleanup wouldn't be necessary as parts come out of the vacuum oven shiny and clean.).
> 
> Asad


gaps in the miters make it really tough to build a frame straight, regardless of the joining method.

http://bikesbyzank.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-i-build-frame.html

http://bikesbyzank.blogspot.com/2007/08/paint-delays-and-part-2-of-how-i-build.html


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## Peter P. (Dec 30, 2006)

You won't notice any ride difference between lugs and welded. Bicycling Magazine did a blind comparison with lugs/TIG/fillet over a decade ago when they actually had tech articles. Riders couldn't tell the difference.

Building with lugs will make it easier to replace a tube, I imagine. It will also enable the builder to hide any substandard tube mitering. Lugless construction permits the use of a wider variety of shaped tubing. It won't hide your mitering mistakes, however.


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## GammaDriver (Jul 6, 2007)

Such a god steel thread - let me ask a related question to riding the 'crap' out of them...

Has anyone seen any effect of degradation (rust to the point of making the frame dangerous) due to riding steel frames along ocean roads for years at a time? The amount of salt in the area is high, and rain-riding just spalshes it up onto, and into, the bikes.

I guess the same could be asked of steel frames ridden on salted roads during the winter up north, but it's been my experience that, if the roads had had to have salt spread on them, the conditions were, by and large, not conducive to riding (not enough room on the road for both bikes and cars, plus the side-roads wold be snowed over).


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## Jerry-rigged (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks guys - ya'll confirmed what I was thinking already, that those that drool over lugged frames do so due to looks alone.

I do have to agree, though - some of those custom lugs, like RJohn's look SWEET!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

asad137 said:


> Thanks for your response -- like I said, lugs COULD be used to hide gaps, but I didn't know if bike builders actually _did_ do it that way. The OP was asking about potential advantages for lugs, and this was one that I thought of.
> 
> Also, after reading the link Scooper posted and reading Mike T.'s response, I do have a better appreciation of how lugged bike frames are constructed. I didn't realize how much work goes into preparing lugs, and I did in fact neglect post-brazing cleanup into the total construction time (though if a builder were actually to use vacuum brazing instead of torch brazing, this cleanup wouldn't be necessary as parts come out of the vacuum oven shiny and clean.).
> 
> Asad




my gawd, this isn't a guessing game. cripes


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Jerry-rigged said:


> Thanks guys - ya'll confirmed what I was thinking already, that those that drool over lugged frames do so due to looks alone.
> 
> I do have to agree, though - some of those custom lugs, like RJohn's look SWEET!


Yeah; every time I do a group ride I have to wipe all the drool off the frame. It does become tiresome.  

BTW, it's also impervious to salt and corrosion.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

*thread drift, lugs*



RJohn said:


> Who has ever seen chrome welds? To address the original question. My hand made lugged bikes ride better than my tig welded bike. Lugged bikes can use thinner gauge tubing because less heat is used to make the joint.



that joint is gorgeous. Chrome and paint like this can never be replicated in a carbon, aluminum, ti frames. They have their aesthics but not like this.


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## Jerry-rigged (Jul 24, 2009)

Yow... That's beautiful... 

Waterford lugged polished stainless is one of my dream bikes... just way to pretty


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