# Campy 11sp rear shifting "clunks" more than Shimano



## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Dare I say it? ;-)

I've now put about 300 miles on an all-new, Chorus-11 equipped bike, that I assembled. During that time, as expected, I've done several minor trims and tweaks on limit screws and cable tension, as the system "breaks in", cables stretch, etc.

But compared to my other bike with Shimano 105 derailleur/DuraAce chain/Ultegra cassette, and to my wife's 105 derailler/Sram 9sp cassette, the Campy seems much more likely to shift cogs with an audible "clunk" than Shimano.

When I observe the bikes on the workstand, the Shimano's chain will ride up or down an adjacent cog very smoothly, with small gaps between the chain & _new_ cog I'm shifting to. The chain "weaves onto" the new cog fairly quietly.

By comparison, the Campy bike is more likely to have a larger gap appear between the chain and _new_ cog, and then the chain engages onto new cog with a more noticeable "clunk". Once the chain is fully onto the new cog, the drivetrain is adequately quiet.

This behaviour is observed even when I directly pull the shift cable under the downtube, so it's apaprently got nothing to do with shifters or cable friction on either Campy or Shimano bikes.

It's would I imagine might happen if the "timing" or relative rotation between cogs was subtly incorrect, but of course the 11sp Chorus cassette can only go on, one way (note, also using Campy Shamal wheel & freehub).

In the small ring/large cog combo, I've set the Rear Der "H-screw" to achieve upper-pulley-to-large-cog distance roughly 5mm (Campy says 7mm), and on other cogs the separation "falls where it may", generally larger. I don't really see what else could affect the "clunk during shift".

Am I overlooking something obvious, or is this just the nature of Campy 11sp ??

(note: 50-34 crankset and 12-27 cassette).


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

if you mean that it has a tone of a heavy clunk when the chain falls on a new cog, then that is absolutely normal - and why aficionados love it - u always know when 'u're in'...

probably comes about due to cassette design, and a more highly sprung r. dérailleur.


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## SystemShock (Jun 14, 2008)

tom_h said:


> Campy 11sp rear shifting "clunks" more than Shimano


It's supposed to, I believe. It's kind of like the difference between a Ferrari and a Honda... the latter car shifts very smoothly, with little effort, and in the former you flog the gearbox with force and gusto, i.e. emotionally.

It's just a different design mentality that the Italians seem to have. Some luv it, some don't.
.


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## SwiftSolo (Jun 7, 2008)

tom_h said:


> Dare I say it? ;-)
> 
> I've now put about 300 miles on an all-new, Chorus-11 equipped bike, that I assembled. During that time, as expected, I've done several minor trims and tweaks on limit screws and cable tension, as the system "breaks in", cables stretch, etc.
> 
> ...


I changed from 7800 to Record 11 and noticed the same thing until I figured it out. Part of it was break-in, part was adjustment, but the biggest part was putting more pressure on the thumb shifter than needed to shift a single gear but not enough to shift two. Mine is quiet as can be now and the guy I ride with has noticed that enough to make a comment about it (he's still on DA)


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

SwiftSolo said:


> I changed from 7800 to Record 11 and noticed the same thing until I figured it out. Part of it was break-in, part was adjustment, but the biggest part was putting more pressure on the thumb shifter than needed to shift a single gear but not enough to shift two. Mine is quiet as can be now and the guy I ride with has noticed that enough to make a comment about it (he's still on DA)


Interesting, I''ll practice technique that next time I'm out. 
I very much prefer the firm positive 'click' action of the Chorus-11 shifters ... the Shimano 105 shifter feels a bit soft or vague, by comparison.

Overall,  you guys are reporting that this is normal behaviour of Campy shifting ... that's a relief.


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## lanpope (Nov 16, 2002)

I've just come from years of Dura Ace and Ultegra shifting to Chorus 11 and I notice the same thing.

I describe it as a solid "mechanical" feel. The shifts are very clear and positive.

Still making up my mind on that detail, but I think the overall ergonomics of the C11 I like better.

LP


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

You may be right, but I've ridden nothing but Campy since 1995, so I can't compare. If anything clunks it would be shifts to smaller cogs, not larger. This would be affected by how the RD cable tension is set. If it's too loose, you get more of a clunk on shifts to smaller cogs. Interesting observation, but I don't consider positive shifting to be bad. I find the 11 speed shifting to be great.


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## David Loving (Jun 13, 2008)

I like to hear when the shift is done.++


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## toonraid (Sep 19, 2006)

I noticed it when switching from DA to Record but then someone told me Campagnolo wears in shimano wears out so it will get smoother with more miles but also some very good tips above.


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## rlchriss (Jun 13, 2007)

Yes it does... beautifully.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Yesterday I partly disassembled the Chorus 11 rear derailleur, for cleaning.

I noted the top & bottom pulleys, while differing in cosmetics, both had virtually _no left-to-right play in the bearing/bushing_. Looking at the Campy parts diagrams, I confirmed same part # is used on both pulleys. "_So what_", you might say.

To put into context, Shimano has designed their RD so that the top pulley has some noticeable amount of lateral play or "float" (2 mm ??), while the bottom pulley has negligible play. In fact, Shimano has patented this, and when used with their "HyperGlide" cog design, probably overall contributes to Shimano's quieter shifting style. 

Of course, some might say Shimano top pulley float exists only to tolerate mis-alignment attributable to less accurate rear derailleur and indexer mechanisms ;-) 

I'm _not_ saying the Campy top pulley should have "float" -- the RD probably wouldn't work properly -- but the difference in Shimano vs Campy design philosphy is interesting.

After some 600 miles on the Chorus 11, I briefly rode my Shimano 105-equipped bike -- I realized Campy _shifts faster_ than my Shimano 105 ... shorter lever strokes, and quicker derailleur response to those strokes.


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

tom_h said:


> Yesterday I partly disassembled the Chorus 11 rear derailleur, for cleaning.
> 
> I noted the top & bottom pulleys, while differing in cosmetics, both had virtually _no left-to-right play in the bearing/bushing_. Looking at the Campy parts diagrams, I confirmed same part # is used on both pulleys. "_So what_", you might say.
> 
> ...


Very interesting experiment, tom_h. Thanks for sharing the results!


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*not so...*

The spare parts diagram is lacking in info. Replacement pulleys come as a pair. The Campy top pulley has always had float of about .5mm. The top is NOT the same as the bottom. On the SR RD, the bottom pulley has ceramic bearings, but the top remains a ceramic bushing with float. Record pulleys both have a ceramic bushing, but only the top has float.


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## Maverick (Apr 29, 2004)

tom_h said:


> Yesterday I partly disassembled the Chorus 11 rear derailleur, for cleaning.
> 
> I noted the top & bottom pulleys, while differing in cosmetics, both had virtually _no left-to-right play in the bearing/bushing_. Looking at the Campy parts diagrams, I confirmed same part # is used on both pulleys. "_So what_", you might say.
> 
> ...


IMHO..although im on the SR11, but i always have the impression that D/Ace groupos shifts faster, smoother then a Campy.
anyway..i do prefer Campy's clunky feel  

for now, the only thing that may steer me away from Campy is Shimano's DI2 

cheers


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

C-40 said:


> The spare parts diagram is lacking in info. Replacement pulleys come as a pair. The Campy top pulley has always had float of about .5mm. The top is NOT the same as the bottom. On the SR RD, the bottom pulley has ceramic bearings, but the top remains a ceramic bushing with float. Record pulleys both have a ceramic bushing, but only the top has float.


Good info. 
When I held Chorus-11 pulleys in my hand and squeezed the dust caps between fingers, I did notice the slight amount of play ... didn't measure it, but it did seem about 0.5mm, as you say. 

But I could _not_ discern any obvious difference of play, between top and bottom pulleys ... both seemed "about" the same. 

Nonetheless, I was careful to return pulleys to their original position.


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## jhamlin38 (Oct 29, 2005)

That audible "clunk" is the aspect that matters the LEAST that I LOVE about riding campy. 
I could be wrong here, but with CF assault wheels, the noice is much more noticeable that on my other AL wheels. 
It also got louder when I changed my cables to I-Links, as the cable pull is less restricted and speeds the movement of the derailleur downwards just a wee bit. 
I love mechanical noises.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

I partially disssambled my Chorus-11 Rear Derailleur for a 'deep cleaning' earlier today.

This time, I noticed that each pulley had molded in _very_ tiny text, "upper" and "lower".

Visually, the only difference between pulleys is the style of the radial stiffening ribs.

In case the pulleys get mixed up, now you know 



tom_h said:


> <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by *C-40*
> _The spare parts diagram is lacking in info. Replacement pulleys come as a pair. The Campy top pulley has always had float of about .5mm. The top is NOT the same as the bottom. On the SR RD, the bottom pulley has ceramic bearings, but the top remains a ceramic bushing with float. Record pulleys both have a ceramic bushing, but only the top has float._
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

tom_h said:


> I partially disssambled my Chorus-11 Rear Derailleur for a 'deep cleaning' earlier today.
> 
> This time, I noticed that each pulley had molded in _very_ tiny text, "upper" and "lower".
> 
> ...


There's more differences. The lower pulley has asymmetric teeth, the upper doesn't; that's why the lower pulley has a unique sense of rotation (notice the arrow indicating it?) and should only be installed one way, but the upper doesn't. Also, just like you, I can't see a difference in float between the two pulley wheels. On two SR derailleurs I have, both have next to no lateral play. Well, so it could be a half millimeter for each, but I really cannot tell a difference between the two.

P.S.: I went downstairs and pulled out my spare SR rear derailleur again, and played with the pulleys. Turns out, with good lighting, and if I'm relly careful to try and move the pulleys parallel to their axle then yes, I can notice that the upper wheel really does have a very small amount of play (0.5mm sounds about right) that the lower one doesn't.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

toonraid said:


> I noticed it when switching from DA to Record but then someone told me Campagnolo wears in shimano wears out so it will get smoother with more miles but also some very good tips above.


Absolutely true. I got a new set of wheels, with a brand new Campy SR 11-speed cassette on it, and it still makes quite a racket on the middle cogs. But it's got only 200miles on it. My "old" SR cassette is almost silent now (2000miles).


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