# 2009 Schwinn Paramount



## midwestroadbiker (Jun 21, 2008)

Anyone else heard the rumor that Schwinn is brining back the Paramount? I've heard that Waterford is building Paramounts again, this time out of Reynolds 953 Stainless Steel tubing. What a bike in the day, in the late 1980's I would have loved to have one.
Also I heard Schwinn is doing a couple of carbon Paramounts as well. Anyone have proof of these? I'm really intriuged.


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Schwinn is just a name that is owned by a company that wants to make money. The name means nothing anymore. If they wanted, they could slap the name Paramount on a $149 bike from China.
Waterford was formed by the people who were in charge of building Schwinn Paramounts, back in 1993 (?), when Schwinn was sold. They will never be able to use the name Paramount, because they don't own the rights to that name. They do make a frame from 953, but that is just a passing fad, without much redeeming value.
There are some custom builders that paint a bike fancier than Waterford, but nobody builds a steel frame "better" than Waterford.


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## PinarelloFan (Jan 19, 2008)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> but nobody builds a steel frame "better" than Waterford.


You were doing fine till that . LOL . Please buddy . That is one bold statement .

No I don't agree with you , and yes, too bad !


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## midwestroadbiker (Jun 21, 2008)

Not to argue with you Mr. Grumpy but name me one bike company that isn't in it for the money? Also, most bikes are made in China nowdays anyway right? Isn't Specialized owned by the Chinese because they couldn't keep their head above water? Where are most Treks made? outside of Wisconsin? I wouldn't blame the new owners of Schwinn for the past owners going bankrupt. And why couldn't Waterford and Schwinn bring back the Paramount? I've talked with a lot of Waterford and Paramount owners not one has a bad thing to say about the bike.
From what I've read, 953 is some amazing stuff, light and strong. 
Just my 2cents, now fireback with your response :thumbsup:


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## Paul1PA (Sep 16, 2006)

While it's not a Paramount, you can order a carbon Schwinn direct from Wal-Mart for less than $500. But hurry, supplies are limited! :lol:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5585799

Seriously, it would be a shame if they used the coveted Paramount name on a POS like this for 2009. But sadly, it wouldn't surprise me either! 

Paul


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

You have to ask...."What was a Paramount"......Well, it was a finely made bike made from 531. Real Paramounts haven't been made in over 20 years (I do not count the Japanese made Paramounts or the Ti Serota made Paramounts from a few years ago) 
531 is so outdated (for all but the super skinny racer types), that it would be silly to make it from 531. The only people who could design a "real" Paramount, all work at Waterford. Who would make it? The Schwinn Chicago plant has been closed for years. If Schwinn does bring back the Paramount name, it will just be some Chinese made Aluminum or Carbon bike, like you buy at Walmart.

Yes, Waterford does make the "Best" steel bike in the USA. There are other builders that make an equally fine bike, and you can't beat Joe Bell for painting, but if you want something rare and "race ready", look at Waterford.
PS. In case you didn't know, the person who runs Waterford is Richard Schwinn.


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## Dave Hickey (Jan 27, 2002)

I might be wrong, and probably am but I thought Pacific _didn't_ get the rights to the Paramount name...I thought I read that years ago when Pacifc bought Schwinn


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## MR_GRUMPY (Aug 21, 2002)

Yes.
I can just picture a "Paramount" at Walmart.


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## capnjim01 (Aug 18, 2007)

People who buy bikes at Wal Mart have no idea what a Paramount was.


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## PinarelloFan (Jan 19, 2008)

MR_GRUMPY said:


> You have to ask...."What was a Paramount"......Well, it was a finely made bike made from 531. Real Paramounts haven't been made in over 20 years (I do not count the Japanese made Paramounts or the Ti Serota made Paramounts from a few years ago)
> 531 is so outdated (for all but the super skinny racer types), that it would be silly to make it from 531. The only people who could design a "real" Paramount, all work at Waterford. Who would make it? The Schwinn Chicago plant has been closed for years. If Schwinn does bring back the Paramount name, it will just be some Chinese made Aluminum or Carbon bike, like you buy at Walmart.
> 
> Yes, Waterford does make the "Best" steel bike in the USA. There are other builders that make an equally fine bike, and you can't beat Joe Bell for painting, but if you want something rare and "race ready", look at Waterford.
> PS. In case you didn't know, the person who runs Waterford is Richard Schwinn.


Ahh . In the USA . Closer but still bold . I won'y name the other contenders . You already know there names .....


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Waterford Precision Cycles has no relationship with the current owners of the Schwinn brand (Pacific Cycle and its parent, Dorel Industries, Inc., of Montreal). The last Paramount bicycles were built in 1998-2001 before Schwinn/GT Corporation was sold to Pacific Cycle in the Denver bankruptcy court on September 13, 2001, and there were two models with identical geometries built during that period. The steel frame Paramounts were lugged Reynolds 853, and were made by Match Bicycle Company in Seattle (Tim Isaac), while the titanium version was built by Ben Serotta. Match and Serotta produced these Paramounts under a contractural arrangement with Schwinn/GT Corporation, and IMHO both the Match built steel and Serotta built Ti Paramounts were worthy of the Paramount name in every respect.

In mid-2006, after spending months experimenting with the material, Waterford began producing road bikes using the Reynolds 953 tube set. I ordered a custom 953 from Waterford in November, 2006, and took delivery in May, 2007. The size and geometry of the Waterford is virtually identical to the 1972 P15-9 touring Paramount, but the Waterford weighs six pounds less than the '72 Paramount, which is built using Reynolds 531 tubes.

The Waterford isn't a Paramount, of course, but it's as close as I could get in 2006.


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## DRLski (Apr 26, 2003)

Nice bikes Scooper, thanks for all the info.


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## AlexCad5 (Jan 2, 2005)

Very sweet lug work. Gawd I love bikes!


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## FatTireFred (Jan 31, 2005)

AlexCad5 said:


> Very sweet lug work. Gawd I love bikes!




looks like Pacentis... without any/much modification


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

FatTireFred said:


> looks like Pacentis... without any/much modification


They're Richard Sachs stainless Newvex lugs. I know Kirk and Richard have worked together on projects, but I was under the impression the Newvex lug series were Richard's. Kirk's "Artisan" lugs look somewhat similar.

The reason I chose the Newvex lugs is to get as close as possible to the Nervex Professional lugs used on the seventies Paramounts.

*EDIT -* While it doesn't say Kirk designed the Newvex lugs specifically, the Pacenti website has a link to a review of a Pacenti road bike containing this gem: _"This ideology follows suit with one of his childhood influences, Connecticut's Richard Sachs. Sachs has been building frames since 1972, and turned to Pacenti to have some of his Sachs-branded lugs and fork crowns designed."_


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Scooper said:


> *EDIT -* While it doesn't say Kirk designed the Newvex lugs specifically, the Pacenti website has a link to a review of a Pacenti road bike containing this gem: _"This ideology follows suit with one of his childhood influences, Connecticut's Richard Sachs. Sachs has been building frames since 1972, and turned to Pacenti to have some of his Sachs-branded lugs and fork crowns designed."_


Richard Sachs saw this thread and sent me a PM saying that Kirk Pacenti had nothing to do with the design of the Newvex Series lugs or any of his lugs, so I apologize for unintentionally perpetuating something that isn't true.


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## cmg (Oct 27, 2004)

Damn gov't firewall, have to check this out at home.


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## scottk (Jun 1, 2008)

Scooper:
First-absolutely beautiful bikes!
Second-you wrote that the Waterford has "virtually identical" geometry. What was changed, why, and is it a positive change?
Just curious.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

scottk said:


> Scooper:
> First-absolutely beautiful bikes!
> Second-you wrote that the Waterford has "virtually identical" geometry. What was changed, why, and is it a positive change?
> Just curious.


Thanks!  

There are some very minor changes:

1. The fork rake on the Waterford is 40mm compared to 50.8mm (2 inches) on the P15-9. With the same head tube angle, the shorter rake results in slightly more trail making the steering a little more stable on the Waterford.

2. The Waterford has slightly shorter chainstays resulting in a wheelbase one centimeter shorter than on the P15-9. This results in a little less longitudinal stability, but should make the Waterford a little more agile.

To tell you the truth, in practice I don't notice any significant difference in either the steering stability or longitudinal stability between the two bikes.

3. The head tube on the Waterford is slightly longer (187mm compared to 170mm on the P15-9) because the top extension is longer. That seems to be the way they're building them these days, and it's OK with me because at 66 I'm not quite as flexible as I used to be, and that top extension gets the handlebars up a little bit. I still spend a lot of time in the drops, and on the Waterford I don't get either back pain or neck pain on long rides.


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## scottk (Jun 1, 2008)

thanks for the comparison!
now i have a new bike to strive for.....


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## JChasse (Sep 16, 2005)

I own a Waterford 2200 and a Gunnar Crosshairs (manufactured by Waterford). While I like both bikes, i've had problems with both - mainly the 2200 - that were results of design and/or manufacturing issues. I probably wouldn't buy another Waterford and certainly wouldn't call them the best steel bikes in te US.

YMMV


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## black cross (May 15, 2006)

What type of problems?


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Scooper,

Did you spec a threaded fork or just thread the one that came with it?

I picked that one up that was on eBay - nearly identical with the less ornate lugs. May be a while before I get it built, though.

TF


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

TurboTurtle said:


> Scooper,
> 
> Did you spec a threaded fork or just thread the one that came with it?
> 
> ...


Beautiful! Just beautiful...

I specified the threaded fork.

BTW, Reynolds doesn't make 953 fork blades so my fork is chrome plated 531 with stainless crown.


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## terbennett (Apr 1, 2006)

I agree with Mr. Grumpy. You have a group of people that have made the best All-American steel frames for decades. Paramount was the pinnacle of steel American made racing bikes. They were Schwinn's version of Toyotas TRD or BMWs M division. While they were owned by their respective companies, they do their own thing. Those same people still build bikes that are second to none. I agree with Grumpy because all of the companies that had a fighting chance in the past have defected to aluminum and carbon fiber frames. You have a few really good ones here and there but they are small. They all come close in build quality but would you race on them? If you can think of a better steel framed American bike company, please tell me. Also, there's nothing wrong with Asian made bikes. I read that around 95% of high end bikes are made in Taiwan in one form or another. That proves that the quality is there too.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

terbennett said:


> .. but would you race on them? ...


Hell Yeah, I've been racing lugged steel and doing just fine, thanks. There's a thread over on bikeforums on this very topic with guys posting pix of the bikes they win on.

Stan - sweeeet bikes.


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

terbennett said:


> I agree with Mr. Grumpy. You have a group of people that have made the best All-American steel frames for decades. Paramount was the pinnacle of steel American made racing bikes. They were Schwinn's version of Toyotas TRD or BMWs M division. While they were owned by their respective companies, they do their own thing. Those same people still build bikes that are second to none. I agree with Grumpy because all of the companies that had a fighting chance in the past have defected to aluminum and carbon fiber frames. You have a few really good ones here and there but they are small. They all come close in build quality but would you race on them? If you can think of a better steel framed American bike company, please tell me.



You must not be familiar with Spectrum Cycles. If I were still racing, it would be on a Spectrum, and if I was a track racer ( velodrome racing) and wanted the very best, it would be a Spectrum.


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## foz (Sep 30, 2004)

*why are paramounts so special?*

Maybe it's just my trans-atlantic ignorance, but why are the schwinn paramounts so special? I always read about how they were the best steel bikes of their day, etc, and how they're still highly regarded, but what made them stand out from other 531 lugged frames? were they straighter? different geometry with better handling? nicer paint? or just determined to be "better" for no reason in particular?

I'm not having a go, I'm geniunely curious!


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## lousylegs (Jul 15, 2005)

foz said:


> Maybe it's just my trans-atlantic ignorance, but why are the schwinn paramounts so special? I always read about how they were the best steel bikes of their day, etc, and how they're still highly regarded, but what made them stand out from other 531 lugged frames? were they straighter? different geometry with better handling? nicer paint? or just determined to be "better" for no reason in particular?
> 
> I'm not having a go, I'm geniunely curious!


They were special because prior to the 70s bike boom here in the US, the Paramount was basically the only true race bike produced there in the US - it is also that they have a extremely long history of production, and of being Schwinn's top of the line racer, going back to the 1930s as track bikes. 

By the mid-70s though, the truth is that between the rebirth of American frame building and the arrival of European imports, Paramounts started to show their age. That is one reason that Schwinn revamped the program and moved it to Waterford, WI. And this the company that split from Schwinn after its first bankruptcy in the early 90s that reformed to become Waterford Bikes.

I have a 1979 Paramount, and while not one of the racing models, it is still all Campy Nuovo Record and one sweet riding bike, even if it is probably close to 24/25 pounds


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## lousylegs (Jul 15, 2005)

Creakyknees said:


> Hell Yeah, I've been racing lugged steel and doing just fine, thanks. There's a thread over on bikeforums on this very topic with guys posting pix of the bikes they win on.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> yeah, I am racing a lugged steel frame too, but usually am the only person around here doing so, do you have a link to the thread over at bikeforums?


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=430946


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## brentthetank (Mar 13, 2008)

Not all Paramounts built in Waterford WI were made of Reynolds. My Paramount, built in 1989 is made from Columbus SLX. I tried posting photos of her but you can check her out at: http://brentthetank.blogspot.com/2008/05/my-schwinn-paramount-jeannie.html
Its a 60 C-T her weight is a bit under 20 lbs. not bad for a 19 year old racing bike.


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## rwbadley (Apr 13, 2002)

brentthetank said:


> Not all Paramounts built in Waterford WI were made of Reynolds. My Paramount, built in 1989 is made from Columbus SLX. I tried posting photos of her but you can check her out at: http://brentthetank.blogspot.com/2008/05/my-schwinn-paramount-jeannie.html
> Its a 60 C-T her weight is a bit under 20 lbs. not bad for a 19 year old racing bike.



After looking at your photos, I'm a little surprised your 60cm was using SLX. During that time the larger Paramounts used a combo of SL and SP for stiffness for the larger rider. I know my '88 is SL with an SP downtube and I think SLX fork. I don't know about the rear stays...

Cheers,

RW


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## BLUE BOY (May 19, 2005)

rwbadley said:


> After looking at your photos, I'm a little surprised your 60cm was using SLX. RW



Actually SLX tubing had reinforcing ribs inside the tubes at the ends; It resembled rifling 
in gun barrels and that way it could have the thin wall like SL tubing but plenty of strength where it was needed.


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## brentthetank (Mar 13, 2008)

BLUE BOY said:


> Actually SLX tubing had reinforcing ribs inside the tubes at the ends; It resembled rifling
> in gun barrels and that way it could have the thin wall like SL tubing but plenty of strength where it was needed.


Yep, the rifling is at the bb area on SLX. TSX has the rifiling throughout the entire tube.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

brentthetank said:


> Not all Paramounts built in Waterford WI were made of Reynolds. My Paramount, built in 1989 is made from Columbus SLX. I tried posting photos of her but you can check her out at: http://brentthetank.blogspot.com/2008/05/my-schwinn-paramount-jeannie.html
> Its a 60 C-T her weight is a bit under 20 lbs. not bad for a 19 year old racing bike.


Waterford used Columbus SL, SP, and SLX, True Temper OS, and Reynolds 753 OS between 1981 and 1993.

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=pdg


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

midwestroadbiker said:


> Anyone else heard the rumor that Schwinn is brining back the Paramount? I've heard that Waterford is building Paramounts again, this time out of Reynolds 953 Stainless Steel tubing. What a bike in the day, in the late 1980's I would have loved to have one.
> Also I heard Schwinn is doing a couple of carbon Paramounts as well. Anyone have proof of these? I'm really intriuged.


Back to the original post, there's an item in THIS TECH NEWS column in Cycling News:

_*Schwinn revives Paramount badge (again!)*

Schwinn will bring back its heralded Paramount nameplate once again with three range-topping models for 2009. The Paramount Series 8 and Series 9 bikes both feature so-called 'N'Litened Black Label' carbon frames and forks and some of the latest must-have technologies. The front end will incorporate a tapered-and-oversized 1 1/8"-to-1 1/4" steerer tube for better steering and braking precision while press-fit bottom bracket cups shed some grams and allow for a wider and stiffer down tube. The Series 9 will also include an integrated seat mast.

Both bikes will be SRAM-equipped with the Series 9 sporting the top-end Red group along with Mavic R-SYS wheels, FSA carbon bar and stem, and San Marco Zoncolan saddle. The Series 8 will be more of a workhorse rig with its SRAM Rival group Mavic Aksium hoops. Pricing is yet to be announced for either one but is expected to be decidedly high-value based on previous model years. 

*Perhaps the most intriguing Paramount frame, though, is the new steel model. We don't have much information just yet other than that it uses Reynolds' latest 953 tubing and lugged joints and will be fully hand-built in Waterford, Wisconsin. Sorry, we don't have any images to show you just yet, either, but we're guessing its classic aesthetics and modern materials will likely appeal to more than a handful of riders.*_

Dave Hellekson at Waterford Precision Cycles confirmed yesterday on the Waterford Paramount Discussion Group forum that Waterford will be building a new lugged 953 Paramount for Schwinn:

_Thanks to our friends at Schwinn for reviving the Paramount name. I will confirm that we will be building the new lugged 953 Paramount for Schwinn. 

I don't want to jump the gun as it is their model, but it will be gorgeous..stay tuned.._


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## lousylegs (Jul 15, 2005)

I will be really interested to see what the new lugged paramounts look like, cause the ones that Match built were certainly race oriented, and I wonder if these new ones will be too, though I guess since they will be all custom, they will be whatever the buyer wants. 

it is cool to see Waterford and Pacific working together on this to keep a great racing name going


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, something is going on over at the Schwinn website. Yesterday, in "Products", "Road Performance", the word Paramount wasn't there. Today, it is, but when you click on it nothing happens.

It's pretty clear they're getting ready, though.

http://www3.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/Products/Road/Road-Performance/

*EDIT -* Doh! You have to toggle 2008 to 2009, and viola!

http://www3.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng...rmance/Details/1273-S9PAR9-Paramount-Series-9


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Scooper said:


> Well, something is going on over at the Schwinn website. Yesterday, in "Products", "Road Performance", the word Paramount wasn't there. Today, it is, but when you click on it nothing happens.
> 
> It's pretty clear they're getting ready, though.
> 
> ...


No steel, just plastic so far, right? Sloping TT on a Paramount - hurts the eyes. - TF


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## lousylegs (Jul 15, 2005)

TurboTurtle said:


> No steel, just plastic so far, right? Sloping TT on a Paramount - hurts the eyes. - TF


yeah, have to agree, while I think it is great that Schwinn is being resurrected (yet again), a non-ferrous paramount just doesn't seem natural (although the few Ti paramounts that Serrota made a few years ago that I have seen are really nice)


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## tyro (May 15, 2005)

Nice bike! I love the shiny color!


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## Argentius (Aug 26, 2004)

*The Last Real Paramount?*

I'm not sure what "real" means, or who exactly has the authority to build a "real" Paramount.

I know that my first serious road bike was a 2001 Paramount built by Tim Isaac. I had no idea what a gem I had, but it was a seriously nice bike. If I could have another like that today, I most certainly would... but the cost / benefit on it isn't worth it!

It was lugged 853, with a steel fork -- I think the fork was a different series steel. I did essentially everything on that bike, including my first season of racing, before a car ended its days.


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## TurboTurtle (Feb 4, 2004)

Argentius said:


> I'm not sure what "real" means, or who exactly has the authority to build a "real" Paramount.
> 
> I know that my first serious road bike was a 2001 Paramount built by Tim Isaac. I had no idea what a gem I had, but it was a seriously nice bike. If I could have another like that today, I most certainly would... but the cost / benefit on it isn't worth it!
> 
> It was lugged 853, with a steel fork -- I think the fork was a different series steel. I did essentially everything on that bike, including my first season of racing, before a car ended its days.


Why can't you have another like it? They're on ebay all the time. - TF


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## peyo (Aug 5, 2008)

lousylegs said:


> They were special because prior to the 70s bike boom here in the US, the Paramount was basically the only true race bike produced there in the US - it is also that they have a extremely long history of production, and of being Schwinn's top of the line racer, going back to the 1930s as track bikes.
> 
> By the mid-70s though, the truth is that between the rebirth of American frame building and the arrival of European imports, Paramounts started to show their age. That is one reason that Schwinn revamped the program and moved it to Waterford, WI. And this the company that split from Schwinn after its first bankruptcy in the early 90s that reformed to become Waterford Bikes.
> 
> I have a 1979 Paramount, and while not one of the racing models, it is still all Campy Nuovo Record and one sweet riding bike, even if it is probably close to 24/25 pounds


I'm also curious as to what makes a Paramount so special. I have not had the chance to ride one, much less own one. 

So according to the above post, what makes a Paramount special is its pedigree as an American made race bike back in the day?


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## timetrial40k (May 25, 2007)

Argentius said:


> I'm not sure what "real" means, or who exactly has the authority to build a "real" Paramount.
> 
> I know that my first serious road bike was a 2001 Paramount built by Tim Isaac. I had no idea what a gem I had, but it was a seriously nice bike. If I could have another like that today, I most certainly would... but the cost / benefit on it isn't worth it!
> 
> It was lugged 853, with a steel fork -- I think the fork was a different series steel. I did essentially everything on that bike, including my first season of racing, before a car ended its days.


Schwinn has Richard Schwinn and Co at Waterford building steel lugged Paramounts out of Reynolds 953 stainless steel tubing. I've seen it in person at the Schwinn GT Mongoose IBD dealer show in Madison, WI this summer. It's really, really beautiful. 
As far as a "real" Paramount goes, this is it. 

The carbon Paramounts are interesting too, light and stiff. For those that don't remember or weren't riding in the early 90's, Schwinn used the Paramount name on a number of bikes PDG group. Our shop sold tons of the Paramount Series bikes along with our Waterford build rigs. 
Good Job Schwinn for brining back a true race bike:thumbsup:


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

I just wish Schwinn would hurry up and put the Waterford-built 953 Paramount on its website; they should have waited until it was ready before putting the CF Paramounts online and done them all at once.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

Since Schwinn lost a lot of their luster I can pick up screaming deals on eBay. My Schwinn collection is quite modest compared to some others on this board. I have to admit that most of my Schwinn's have been of the Japanese steel variety (PDG OS versions in both 700c and 650c). Frankly, I couldn't tell the difference when I rode them; they were and still are sweet handling bikes. 

I am just warming up to compact frames and this new fangled thing called STI. In 2002/03 (I believe) Supergo were clearing out a whole bunch of Scwhinn '01 Fastback Pro frames for $150. I bought one. It got stolen. I bought two more Fastback frames on eBay for a total of $205. One was a '01 Fastback Comp (my club/race bike) and the other was a '01 black Fastback Pro (hoping to build her up with SRAM-someday). 

I love my Schwinns and I'm glad they're bringing back the Paramount. I probably can't afford one but that's okay. I still have plenty in my collection to choose from


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## lancezneighbor (May 4, 2002)

Scooper said:


> Waterford Precision Cycles has no relationship with the current owners of the Schwinn brand (Pacific Cycle and its parent, Dorel Industries, Inc., of Montreal). The last Paramount bicycles were built in 1998-2001 before Schwinn/GT Corporation was sold to Pacific Cycle in the Denver bankruptcy court on September 13, 2001, and there were two models with identical geometries built during that period. The steel frame Paramounts were lugged Reynolds 853, and were made by Match Bicycle Company in Seattle (Tim Isaac), while the titanium version was built by Ben Serotta. Match and Serotta produced these Paramounts under a contractural arrangement with Schwinn/GT Corporation, and IMHO both the Match built steel and Serotta built Ti Paramounts were worthy of the Paramount name in every respect.
> 
> In mid-2006, after spending months experimenting with the material, Waterford began producing road bikes using the Reynolds 953 tube set. I ordered a custom 953 from Waterford in November, 2006, and took delivery in May, 2007. The size and geometry of the Waterford is virtually identical to the 1972 P15-9 touring Paramount, but the Waterford weighs six pounds less than the '72 Paramount, which is built using Reynolds 531 tubes.
> 
> The Waterford isn't a Paramount, of course, but it's as close as I could get in 2006.



What beautiful bikes, both of them. Thanks for the great info as well. I have a 2000 853 Schwinn Peloton Pro, a step down from the Paramounts, I love it all the same.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, it's spread out across two pages in the 2009 Schwinn Dealer Catalog, so the resolution is low to get it all on a computer screen. But here is the...

2009 Schwinn Paramount 70th Anniversary Edition, built by Waterford Precision Cycles. It's a Reynolds 953 frame with polished stainless steel lugs.


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

oooh now that's nice.

way better than the "yet another black and red CF bike" of the other Paramounts.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Creakyknees said:


> oooh now that's nice.
> 
> way better than the "yet another black and red CF bike" of the other Paramounts.


Boy, I agree!

HERE's a link to a high res version (800 kilobytes).


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## black cross (May 15, 2006)

It appears this will be a frame only bike and then build it up like we choose? How are you going to build yours?


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

black cross said:


> It appears this will be a frame only bike and then build it up like we choose? How are you going to build yours?


Campy Super Record compact double 11-speed. How else?


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## ox_rider (Sep 6, 2006)

Not to be the naysayer, but here goes: why spend the money be it more or less to get a 953 Waterford with Schwinn stickers on it? It would seem to me as a Gunnar owner that the love goes to the guys at Waterford.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

ox_rider said:


> Not to be the naysayer, but here goes: why spend the money be it more or less to get a 953 Waterford with Schwinn stickers on it? It would seem to me as a Gunnar owner that the love goes to the guys at Waterford.


No fair; that's being rational.  

I think for we old pharts who remember the Schwinn Paramount as the epitome of U.S. bicycle craftsmanship and technology back in the day, seeing the brand resurrected by Schwinn and built by Waterford, who arguably has more experience building lugged 953 frames than anybody else in the world, is pure poetry.

Since Richard Schwinn is the only member of the Schwinn family still building bicycles, and domestically built Paramounts made between 1981 and 1994 were built at the Waterford factory, I for one am really pleased that Schwinn (Doral, Pacific Cycle) chose Waterford to build these 70th anniversary Paramounts.

It's a good business decision by the folks at Schwinn and those at Waterford.


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## ox_rider (Sep 6, 2006)

I pretty much agree with what you are saying and I get the love affair with the Paramount, I just don't see paying a middle man (Doral, PC, etc.) for a Waterford. I have been to the factory and talked to Richard and Marc Muller designed my custom Gunnar. I feel pride in having the name Gunnar or, if I could afford it, Waterford on my bike. Of course, there are other flavors in there, I just wouldn't put them on my cone.


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## wooglin (Feb 22, 2002)

Scooper said:


> No fair; that's being rational.
> 
> I think for we old pharts who remember the Schwinn Paramount as the epitome of U.S. bicycle craftsmanship and technology back in the day,


I think its also that many grew up on Schwinns. I started on a Pixie, 2 Stingrays, then a Varsity. The Schwinn name is really tied into my childhood, and that only adds to the alure of a Paramount.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

ox_rider said:


> <snip>...I get the love affair with the Paramount, I just don't see paying a middle man (Doral, PC, etc.) for a Waterford....<snip>
> <snip>...I feel pride in having the name Gunnar or, if I could afford it, Waterford on my bike...<snip>


FWIW, I completely agree.

Playing devil's advocate, though, my guess is that because of the quantity "wholesale" order, Schwinn will be paying a lot less per unit for these frame sets than you or I would as individuals, and the retail price for the Paramount frameset probably won't be much more than a custom lugged 953 frameset from Waterford.

Waterford makes money on a huge volume sale to Schwinn, and Schwinn gets a world class 953 steel frameset from one of the world's premier steel framebuilders for its 70th anniversary steel Paramount. It's a "win-win" proposition.

For consumers, they can choose either a Schwinn Paramount or a Waterford 953 RS-22, so they win too.  

I love stories with happy endings.


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## lancezneighbor (May 4, 2002)

Thanks for the photos. Looks like a great bike.


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## black cross (May 15, 2006)

I agree. Us old farts remember that Schwinn Paramount at the Schwinn bike shop in the shadow box, man, I wanted one of those. All 5 of us kids learned to ride on a Schwinn Tornado, I also had a Racer, both single speed and the yellow band 2 speed, a 5 speed Varsity. Now our family has 3 Gunnars. Maybe a new Paramount is in my future.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Maybe it's just me, but the carbon fork looks strange on that bike. I hope there's a choice of forks.

I'd opt for a steel fork painted red with polished stainless crown and dropouts.


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Schwinn just put several pages devoted to the 70th Anniversary Paramount up on the website. They go into the Paramount history and have a number of photos of the new bike being built.

http://www.schwinnbikes.com/paramount/


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## Lookbiker (Sep 2, 2006)

Buying that bike is not a rational decision but a great one!


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## black cross (May 15, 2006)

Any idea what the price range will be on the frame/fork?


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## mjconn42 (Aug 27, 2008)

*Limited Production*

Looks like this 70th Anniversary Paramount frame will be a limited edition.

From the Schwinn website.

"The Paramount 70th Anniversary will be limited in production to *not more than 70* frame and fork combos."


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## Creakyknees (Sep 21, 2003)

ouch... that means big $


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

Creakyknees said:


> ouch... that means big $


Yes, it does.

I just talked to "Johnny" at Schwinn Customer Service. He says the frameset, including fitting and consultation with Waterford, will be $6,000. I asked about substituting a steel fork for the CF one shown, and he said that would be "negotiable."

That's about a 50% markup over a Waterford lugged 953 RS-22 frameset. :blush2:


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Scooper said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> I just talked to "Johnny" at Schwinn Customer Service. He says the frameset, including fitting and consultation with Waterford, will be $6,000. I asked about substituting a steel fork for the CF one shown, and he said that would be "negotiable."
> 
> That's about a 50% markup over a Waterford lugged 953 RS-22 frameset. :blush2:


Wow, that's crazy! I would wanta lugged fork as well.


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## black cross (May 15, 2006)

I just visited with my LBS and he mentioned the $7000 for frame and fork. It sure is a nice bike, but that puts it out of my league.


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## dekindy (Jul 7, 2006)

I did not look through all the replies, but has anyone seen this?

http://www.schwinnbikes.com/paramount/reserve/index.html


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## Scooper (Mar 4, 2007)

dekindy said:


> I did not look through all the replies, but has anyone seen this?
> 
> http://www.schwinnbikes.com/paramount/reserve/index.html


This thread, Post #63.


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## buck-50 (Sep 20, 2005)

The carbon fork looks wrong, and I can't get behind a $6000 frame that I can get for $3000 from the same builder. 

That said, it's nice to see the paramount name being revived.


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