# Low viscosity oils for chain lube???



## Paul1PA (Sep 16, 2006)

Due to the frequent engine starts and to further aid in higher MPG, manufacturers of hybrid cars are typically recommending a very low viscosity motor oil. Hmmm, figuring this might make a nice chain lube, I purchased a quart of this:










After using this synthetic oil on my mountain bike chain this winter, I've been pleased with the results. Yes, there is a little build-up over time, but nothing unusual for a MTB ridden in harsh conditions. 

I'm now in the process of building my first road bike and planned to use the same Mobil One 0-20W on the chain. But, after reading the recent "Home Brew" thread, seems the consensus is to use 3:1 mixture of mineral spirits to oil.

What are the primary reasons for using the mineral spirits? Is it just to "thin" the oil for better flow and penetration? Couldn't some of the new ultra-low viscosity motor oils work as well without the hassle of mixing?

Thanks in advance, 

Paul


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Paul1PA said:


> What are the primary reasons for using the mineral spirits? Is it just to "thin" the oil for better flow and penetration? Couldn't some of the new ultra-low viscosity motor oils work as well without the hassle of mixing?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Paul


Sorta, but not exactly. The idea behind mineral spirits or other carrier is that it 'thins' the oil for better flow and penetration, as well as to help carry away the existing gunk and build up on the chain. 

Then the carrier evaporates, leaving the relatively viscous oil within the chain. An oil thin enough to get where the wear occurs and help flush the old grit out wouldn't stay around to do it's lubrication chores.


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## LO^OK (Feb 1, 2008)

Not to rain on your parade but if you must buy lubricants sold for motor vehicles better choose some transmission oil. Engine oils are designed to provide lubrication in too different conditions (thin film forced lubrication in high temperature environment). Nothing in a bicycle comes anywhere close.


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## Mel Erickson (Feb 3, 2004)

The lubrication demands for a bike chain are simple in comparison to an automobile. Any motor oil of any viscosity when used in a homebrew mix will work very well. I buy whatevers cheap and I've used synthetic and regular oil, no difference. Clean and lube well and often and your chains will last many thousands of miles.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*baloney...*



LO^OK said:


> Not to rain on your parade but if you must buy lubricants sold for motor vehicles better choose some transmission oil. Engine oils are designed to provide lubrication in too different conditions (thin film forced lubrication in high temperature environment). Nothing in a bicycle comes anywhere close.


Some engines have roller chains that spin the camshaft. Those are lubricated with the same oil as the rest of the engine and they last for thousands of hours of operation.

The idea of using transmission fluid isn't bad at all, since a large variety of oils will work fine, but transmissions get plenty hot too. You don't think transmissions need the same kind of "thin film lubrication" ? To listen to your BS, you'd think you were a lubrication expert. Automatic transmissions can get quite hot. That's why they pump the fluid through a heat exchanger.

A real expert, like the lubrication engineer who formulated ATB chain lube would say that you need more EP additive, like a gear lube provides.

You're right that a chain is not the same and an engine, but the demands are far less crucial, not more. The biggest enemy of a chain is dirt from the road.


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## Val_Garou (Apr 30, 2002)

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=123257

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=123426

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=120832

And, just in case you're feeling sparky, here's all 134 threads that mention "homebrew.":

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/search.php?searchid=1591397


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## steel515 (Sep 6, 2004)

I want to add, don't use gear oil (75w). Someone mentioned, I tried this it was terrible.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*elaborate...*



steel515 said:


> I want to add, don't use gear oil (75w). Someone mentioned, I tried this it was terrible.



Others have posted that it works fine, in their opinion. I just tried it on my last ride - a 4/1 mix with naptha. I certainly wasn't any cleaner than my previous 5W-30 synthetic motor oil, but otherwise worked OK. I's never use it unthinned, if that's what you mean.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Gear oil*



steel515 said:


> I want to add, don't use gear oil (75w). Someone mentioned, I tried this it was terrible.


I would agree that you don't want to use gear lube "straight up" because it is too viscous to penetrate the chain and it's very difficult to wipe off the excess. However, as the oil component of home brew, it works just fine.


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## Mr. Versatile (Nov 24, 2005)

Val_Garou said:


> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=123257
> 
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=123426
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: +1 *thank you!!*:thumbsup:


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## DaveG (Feb 4, 2004)

*two purposes*



Paul1PA said:


> Due to the frequent engine starts and to further aid in higher MPG, manufacturers of hybrid cars are typically recommending a very low viscosity motor oil. Hmmm, figuring this might make a nice chain lube, I purchased a quart of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The thinner serves two purposes. First is allows the lubricant to better penetrate the chain. Second, it provides a solvent to loosen up and wash away all the gunk that was on your chain. If you simply slather on oil without the thinner, then you will build up grit which will reduce chain life (and perhaps cassette and chainrings too) far more that any difference in viscosity or oil quality will. I would like to see a scientific experiment on this but I seriously doubt differences in viscosity or the use of hi-end synthetic auto oils provide any measurable benefit. Cleaning your chain frequently is likely the most important factor


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## Paul1PA (Sep 16, 2006)

Appreciate the replies! To summarize, I learned:

1. Even the lowest viscosity motor oil will still be too "thick" for bicycle chains, so adding mineral spirits recommended.

2. Mineral spirits will also serve as a solvent to help loosen & remove excess gunk from the chain.

3. The type of oil (i.e. engine or gear) probably isn't that critical for the low demands of bicycles. 

Sounds good to me! Below is a photo of me mixing up my first batch of "Home Brew".:lol: 

Paul


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

You really need to think about upgrading the glasses, they seem to go with the tie but not the gloves.


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## LO^OK (Feb 1, 2008)

I strongly suspect the point of these threads is not lubrication as such but the fun some home mechanics are having mixing their "home brew". :14: 

The next thread I would suggest is, share your favourite dip recipe for bearings lubrication. They are nothing special after all and any flight of chef fantasy will guarantee thousands of trouble free kilometres. I use in my headset tapenade dip so it must be worthwhile


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

Well, for bearings there is bearing grease, so no real need to adapt. 

But pork fat rules, so I'm torn. Unfortunately it's temperature characteristics aren't at all useful, save for an early-spring only bike. Colder and things would get stiff, warmer and it'd melt and run out. 


Alas, Shimano doesn't say anything about what grease to use in these tremendously complicated high-tech devices, so that must mean we're supposed to run them dry.


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## LO^OK (Feb 1, 2008)

SKF have great resources on Lubrication. From the wealth of information there I can only conclude that, (1) oils, engine oil incl., have no place as chain lubricant; and (2) and any good chain lubricant should employ grease as a lubricating component. The last bit is nothing new indeed. The info from SKF simply back up scientifically and empirically the old practice.

Enjoy the read :thumbsup: 

http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=1_0_101


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## Al1943 (Jun 23, 2003)

LO^OK said:


> SKF have great resources on Lubrication. From the wealth of information there I can only conclude that, (1) oils, engine oil incl., have no place as chain lubricant; and (2) and any good chain lubricant should employ grease as a lubricating component. The last bit is nothing new indeed. The info from SKF simply back up scientifically and empirically the old practice.
> 
> Humm... maybe that's why I only got 5000 mi. out of my last 10-speed chain (1/16th" stretch). I was using home brew with mineral spirits 75% and Mobil One 25%.


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## Kerry Irons (Feb 25, 2002)

*Grease on chains?*



LO^OK said:


> SKF have great resources on Lubrication. From the wealth of information there I can only conclude that, (1) oils, engine oil incl., have no place as chain lubricant; and (2) and any good chain lubricant should employ grease as a lubricating component. The last bit is nothing new indeed. The info from SKF simply back up scientifically and empirically the old practice.


Just curious as to how you reached your conclusion. The SKF site specifically is talking about roller bearings, not chains. They don't recommend grease for chains, so how did you come to that? I think if you spend some time on chain manufacturers' web sites, you will find oil as the preferred lube. Unless you can show some research (as in "back up scientifically") about grease improving chain life or reducing chain friction, I think you've made a leap that is not supported by data. Just saying.


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## LO^OK (Feb 1, 2008)

Kerry Irons said:


> Just curious as to how you reached your conclusion. The SKF site specifically is talking about roller bearings, not chains. They don't recommend grease for chains, so how did you come to that? I think if you spend some time on chain manufacturers' web sites, you will find oil as the preferred lube. Unless you can show some research (as in "back up scientifically") about grease improving chain life or reducing chain friction, I think you've made a leap that is not supported by data. Just saying.


No, SKF is talking about lubrication, and in bearings in general, not just roller bearings. It's not such a stretch of imagination to see the chain as a system of multiple needle bearings like elements. If you actually bothered to read the SKF texts you wouldn't ask "They don't recommend grease for chains, so how did you come to that?". They don't resort to the cheap marketing tricks of pushily "recommending" products. Instead they appeal to the informed user to choose. 

Answer yourself what are the environmental conditions a chain is working in (temperature range, moisture); what are the loads a chain is subjected to; and what are the speeds it's components are subjected to(?) I for one concluded that whatever stuff one put on his/her chain it must stick in place where it should lubricate and protect, and does not get easily displaced; must withstand the loads chain elements are subjected to (deposited medium viscosity grease will be more effective in preventing metal to metal contact between the slow rotating high load bearing chain elements). Last, the wonder stuff should act as a physical barrier of not letting in foreign hard particles between chain moving metal parts. Now the really hard question is, which substance better fit the above needs? A liquid, which is easily displaced and which to perform it must always flow? Or a solid lubricant (grease) dissolved in volatile liquid vehicle to deposit it in the right places where it stay in place, and do the job of lubrication and protection?

Greases were used as chain lubricants for decades. Not because of the low tech "dark ages" of cycling but due to the properties outlined above. Lubricants are not the same, they never were, and there's no such thing as one_suit_all_uses.

At the end of the day one is free to use whatever s/he wants. Having said that, personal choices are not always based on sound reasoning.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Terminology confusion.*



LO^OK said:


> No, SKF is talking about lubrication, and in bearings in general, not just roller bearings


Not true. SKF's English-language terminology may have caused your confusion.

The lubrication link you posted addresses what SKF calls "rolling bearings" only, as you can see in the very first sentence. "Rolling bearings" is SKF's term for what is better known in the English-speaking world as "rolling contact bearings" or "antifriction bearings," such as ball bearings or roller bearings. These bearings typically use a rolling element to reduce friction between the components.

On a completely different page, SKF addresses what they call "plain bearings," which are also known as "sliding bearings". Plain- or sliding bearings typically use a lubricant to reduce friction between the sliding surfaces. A fluid lubricant forms a film between the sliding surfaces so that there is no contact between solid components. This is the type of bearing found in a chain.

Here's the hierarchy, unfortunately with more potential to confuse English speakers: SKF shows a _roller_ bearing above their _rolling_ bearing link. 

http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=first


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## LO^OK (Feb 1, 2008)

wim said:


> Plain- or sliding bearings typically use a lubricant to reduce friction between the sliding surfaces. A fluid lubricant forms a film between the sliding surfaces so that there is no contact between solid components. This is the type of bearing found in a chain.


I am afraid you and SKF differ on the issue of lubrication. Everywhere in the section of Plain Bearings the talk is about solid lubrication (grease).

http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=3_0_42a
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=3_0_44
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=3_0_42

SKF specifications aside, one of the basic requirements of fluid lubrication is to maintain either a passive supply, or, even better, a forced flow of lubricant. For obvious reasons this requirement cannot be met in the case of bicycle chain. Without constant supply you can wave goodbye quickly to the fluid lubricant that "forms a film between the sliding surfaces so that there is no contact between solid components". Never mind the stresses, never mind the environmental protection.


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## wim (Feb 28, 2005)

*Those smart Swedes.*



LO^OK said:


> I am afraid you and SKF differ on the issue of lubrication. Everywhere in the section of Plain Bearings the talk is about solid lubrication (grease)


Not to worry, I completely agree with the lubrication advice from the _Svenska Kullagerfabriken_. The three links you posted address

- maintenance-free plain bearing products which need or could benefit from an initial grease fill to enhance sealing and/or performance,

- spherical plain bearings with ducts in the housing and a grease nipple in the shaft or in the pin, lubrication holes and an annular groove in the outer _and_ inner ring, or in the outer ring alone.

The links do not address plain bearings like those in a bicycle chain. Bicycle chain bearings are not maintenance-free, are not spherical and do not have grease nipples or lubrication grooves, holes and/or -ducts.

Well, enough of this from me. The sun came out and the roads are dry  

/w


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*more fun...*

It seems like you're determined to find irrelevant information (like this on spherical bearings) and try to convince us that it applies to a roller chain.

First you said that chain lube had to be specially formulated for bicycle chains, or it wouldn't work properly and now you say that a chain needs to be greased. None of those expensive chains lubes that cost $8 for a 4-ounce bottle are grease, so they must not be the right thing to use either?

I tend to use a product that has proven by me and many other users to produce very long chain life, like a cheap homebrew lube. I'm confident that you could thin just about an motor oil, transmission fluid or gear lube with a little mineral spirits and get similar chain life, as long as you keep the chain lubed and clean. DIRT is still a bicycle chain's biggest enemy.

Getting grease into a chain is the big problem. Even those spray cans of solvent-thinned lithium grease are unlikely to penetrate where it's needed and the excess will be a huge dirt magnet.


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## danl1 (Jul 23, 2005)

C-40 said:


> Getting grease into a chain is the big problem. Even those spray cans of solvent-thinned lithium grease are unlikely to penetrate where it's needed and the excess will be a huge dirt magnet.


Not only that, but by the time a grease is thinned enough to flow into the tight clearances of a chain, it is such a little percentage that once the solvent evaporates, too little remains to lubricate as grease should. 

Oil needs relatively less thinning, thus more remains once the solvent has evaporated. As a result, it provides better lubrication overall for real-world conditions.

It would be interesting for the certain someone in this thread who obviously hasn't, to compare what the experts are using as base oil in their formulations. It ain't grease.


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## Keith Lewis (Jul 16, 2008)

Lubrication is a black art and even the professionals do not agree on what causes wear and how lubricants work. The two schools are: wear by the rough surfaces interacting with each other causing removal of the higher portions of the microscopic peaks as they collide with each other and the other is that wear is caused by oxidation of the surfaces caused by the sliding conditions which results in the oxides being sluffed off during the episode. Both schools agree that wear can be reduced by some chemicals and the include extreme pressure resisting chemicals and anti-oxidents. Obviously the safest condition is to use a chemical that has high extreme pressure resistance and high anti-oxident characteristics. How you get the chemical to the surface and how you manage to keep it there without contamination and loss of surface contact is where the black art part comes in. Grease is only oil held in suspension by some type of soap. Whether it releases the oil when needed or not gives the grease its value. If it cannot release the oil and will not stay in position it becomes rather useless. Light liquid oils can get into the areas but unless they contain extreme pressure resisting chemicals with anti-oxident characteristics that will penetrate the pores of the metal to stay in position they too are doomed to failure. Hope this helps.


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## Pieter (Oct 17, 2005)

Mobil 1 or similar fancy fully synthetic motor oil will probably prove to be sufficiently penetrating without dilution.

This type of oil will hopefully employ a 'polar' oil component (like polyol ester or diester oil) with superior metal wetting properties, hence good penetration.

Having said that, it is on the thin side for the low speed, high load bike chain application (not to be confused with engine camshaft chain application). And the EP additives in motor oils are typically zinc dithio-phosphate or related compounds which really only work at elevated temperatures.


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## NealH (May 2, 2004)

Yea, all this is why a teflon based lube is probably the best lube for a chain. When the molecules embody themselves into into the pores of the metal, you have just about the best friction reducer known to sliding metal. With it's relatively high surface tension, it tends to stay in place. Of course it will blacken and attract some dirt but, so does grease. 

The bicycle chain though, is such a low duty device that just about any lubricant will do just fine.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

*CRC Industrial Power Lube*

I only have a few "100s of miles" of experience with it so far, but consider CRC Industries #03045 "Power Lube *Industrial* High Performance Lubricant w/ PTFE". http://www.crcindustries.com/auto/content/prod_detail.aspx?S=Y&PN=03045

Industrial Power Lube also contains 1% Zinc alkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP), a proven anti-wear additive.

Penetrates well, doesn't seem to attract dirt, has mild clean/flush properties, and the chain links seem to "turn" very freely in my hand.

Though it's an aerosol, it's a pinpoint spray and easy to direct -- not too much waste. Hold a paper towel under chain to keep overspray off the rims.

A bit pricey (about $10 per 11 oz can) but convenient to use.


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## Keith Lewis (Jul 16, 2008)

rnhood said:


> Yea, all this is why a teflon based lube is probably the best lube for a chain. When the molecules embody themselves into into the pores of the metal, you have just about the best friction reducer known to sliding metal. With it's relatively high surface tension, it tends to stay in place. Of course it will blacken and attract some dirt but, so does grease.
> 
> The bicycle chain though, is such a low duty device that just about any lubricant will do just fine.


The problem with most Teflon additives is that they are way to large to penetrate into the pores of the metal. Most just turns black due to the scrubbing between side plates and sluffs off with the rest of the dirt. A lot of the PTFE additive lubricants would do just as well without the PTFE but it is a marketing thing.


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## AH1 (May 26, 2008)

Best stuff ever.
Works in automatic weapons in the desert, and does a great job on chains

http://www.break-free.com/


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## nenad (May 5, 2004)

and just what exactly is a mineral spirit ? Can someone give me an example ? Just to clarify, english is my 2nd language.


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## Cory (Jan 29, 2004)

*I know WD-40 sucks, and I don't use it, but...*

...before I found out it sucked, I used it exclusively for years and never had a problem. It's low-vis, gets in everywhere, and the carrier evaporates, plus it's easy to spray on.

NOTE: I really don't use it anymore. But I really used to, and it worked.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

nenad said:


> and just what exactly is a mineral spirit ? Can someone give me an example ? Just to clarify, english is my 2nd language.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_spirits


> Mineral Spirits also called Stoddard solvent [CAS 8052-41-3][1], is a petroleum distilate commonly used as a *paint thinner* and mild solvent. In Europe, it is referred to as white spirit ...
> ... A typical composition for mineral spirits is the following: aliphatic solvent hexane having a maximum aromatic hydrocarbon content of 0.1% by volume, a kauri-butanol value of 29, an initial boiling point of 149 °F (65 °C), a dry point of approximately 156 °F (69 °C), and a specific mass of 0.7 g/cc.


In a USA hardware or paint store, it's usually sold & labelled as "mineral spirits". 

I'd recommend choosing "_*odorless* mineral spirits_". It's not actually "odorless", but it stinks a _lot less_.


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## tom_h (May 6, 2008)

Cory said:


> ...before I found out it sucked, I used it exclusively for years and never had a problem. It's low-vis, gets in everywhere, and the carrier evaporates, plus it's easy to spray on.
> NOTE: I really don't use it anymore. But I really used to, and it worked.


Well, it does _temporarily_ quiet some squeaks (eg, door hinges).
But as you've probably discovered, it makes a much better _solvent _for _removing_ other lubricants.
Over time, WD40 also tends to leave a gummy, sticky residue ... bad.


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

The WD in WD40 stands for... that's right, water displacement. It's very good to dry metal parts after washing (or after a rain storm). After the WD40 solvent evaporates, you still need to apply a lubricant, because WD40 really isn't a lubricant, it's a penetrating oil.


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