# Conti 4000 Incident Report



## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

Today I was riding a century race with another group of guys and around mile 60 or 65 my BRAND NEW conti gp 4000s blows out (heard a loud bang) and I go skidding across the road sideways and my cleats are sliding across the pavement as well. I'm lucky that one of the oil trucks that frequent the road wasn't heading the other direction. This destroys my rear wheel (sram s60) and the tire's rear sidewall is torn in the same exact section on the left AND right section of the tire. 

This is obviously a defect in the tire's sidewall. I called highway two (the distributor of the conti products) and they are sending me a tire free of charge but I'm up the creek with no paddle/rear wheel. I asked what they could do for me regarding the wheel, considering it was a tire that only had 80 miles total on it and there was nothing in the road as far as puntures and debris goes. I've been a bicycle mechanic for 10 years and have never seen anything like this, I've also had at least 6 sets of these exact tires (except for the "S" version) with no issue at all. 

I'd recomend that you all stay off these tires until Conti gets this issue resolved, I'm sure the company will be nothing for me regarding the damaged beyond use wheel. If this had happened on a fast downhill or in a busy interestion/corner it would have been a disaster, I consider myself lucky to be alive at the moment considering all the 18 wheel'er semis on the road at the time.

I'll post some pics soon


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## Nimitz (Jul 8, 2004)

in for pics

Chad


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## AvantDale (Dec 26, 2008)

Is this a known problem? This is the first time hearing about this.

I've been using my pair for over 1k. My friends have been using them for the past two years with no issue,


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## repartocorse40 (Feb 23, 2009)

^^^same...if it wasn't for the bike mechanic comment I would have assumed user error. 

How old was the s60? just curious...

what pressure were you riding/ what do you weigh? just curious....


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

Oh gawd, I'd better take mine off RIGHT NOW!


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## fast ferd (Jan 30, 2009)

Seems unusual for a tire of this quality to epic fail on you. My money is on you unwittingly striking a sharp object at some time earlier. Calling for all riders to boycott is a little extreme. Nevertheless, very glad to hear you avoided a disaster. Sounds scary.

OTOH, I don't care much for how they ride and handle, but that's another issue altogether.


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## VanillaGorila (May 14, 2010)

I just put a new pair on this weekend... I might be in for trouble.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

the sweet ride


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

I thought Trek made good tires?


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

a single instance and you expect us to take off our 4000s tires? chyea ok.
all manufacturers have defects in their production line. you may have gotten one of them. unless 50 other people post the same problem in here, you're just on your own here. tough loss, but you'll get over it. Get another set of Gp4000s tires for $65 at PBK.


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## Oxtox (Aug 16, 2006)

alias33 said:


> I'd recomend that you all stay off these tires until Conti gets this issue resolved...


not to be unsympathetic to your bad luck, but a single tire going south does not constitute a mfg 'issue'...

it's statistically irrelevant and no cause for any alarm by consumers. every product line made on planet Earth has some instances of failure.

it's a numbers game and 'one' isn't the number.


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

skyliner1004 said:


> a single instance and you expect us to take off our 4000s tires? chyea ok.
> all manufacturers have defects in their production line. you may have gotten one of them. unless 50 other people post the same problem in here, you're just on your own here. tough loss, but you'll get over it. Get another set of Gp4000s tires for $65 at PBK.


This.


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## ghost6 (Sep 4, 2009)

been200mph said:


> I thought Trek made good tires?


Ironic hipster posts about Treks are boring now.


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

ghost6 said:


> Ironic hipster posts about Treks are boring now.


Not quite as boring as posts with quotes of ironic hipster Trek posts :Yawn:


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## cpark (Oct 13, 2004)

alias33 said:


> Today I was riding a century race with another group of guys and around mile 60 or 65 my BRAND NEW conti gp 4000s blows out (heard a loud bang) and I go skidding across the road sideways and my cleats are sliding across the pavement as well. I'm lucky that one of the oil trucks that frequent the road wasn't heading the other direction. This destroys my rear wheel (sram s60) and the tire's rear sidewall is torn in the same exact section on the left AND right section of the tire.
> 
> This is obviously a defect in the tire's sidewall. I called highway two (the distributor of the conti products) and they are sending me a tire free of charge but I'm up the creek with no paddle/rear wheel. I asked what they could do for me regarding the wheel, considering it was a tire that only had 80 miles total on it and there was nothing in the road as far as puntures and debris goes. I've been a bicycle mechanic for 10 years and have never seen anything like this, I've also had at least 6 sets of these exact tires (except for the "S" version) with no issue at all.
> 
> ...



Call me crazy but my GP 4000S with 2000 miles on it have look newer than that one.
It appears that it has more than 80 miles,or is it the picture?


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## repartocorse40 (Feb 23, 2009)

i blame the frame mfg


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

repartocorse40 said:


> i blame the frame mfg


Excuse me, but it was brought to my attention those ironic Trek posts are no longer funny... :lol:


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

First of all, it looks like a lot of mileage on that tire already, as someone else pointed out.

Second, it looks like the tire flatted, whether explosively or not, but then you were skidding on a flat tire, grinding both the rim AND the tire at that point. Note how the tire damage matches the rim damage, and how the tire damage is not a simple rip but a grinding separation. I'd say you had a flat and when you had to steer or brake, you started skidding the rear wheel and totalled both tire and wheel at the same time. If you had a critical casing failure, it's very low likelihood that it would be exactly where you were skidding your wheel against the pavement, plus it would be a very different kind of rupture. 

I'd suggest you rethink what happened here and not jump all over Conti over an event that may simply have been a handling problem after a reasonably routine flat. You presumably didn't even realize the tire had flatted until you were skidding to control the bike. Not user error, but not tire failure either.


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

alias33 said:


>


and you have the tire on backwards


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

11.4 said:


> Second, it looks like the tire flatted, whether explosively or not, but then you were skidding on a flat tire, grinding both the rim AND the tire at that point. Note how the tire damage matches the rim damage, and how the tire damage is not a simple rip but a grinding separation. I'd say you had a flat and when you had to steer or brake, you started skidding the rear wheel and totalled both tire and wheel at the same time. If you had a critical casing failure, it's very low likelihood that it would be exactly where you were skidding your wheel against the pavement, plus it would be a very different kind of rupture.


That looks like it to me also... tire torn right where the rim is ground down. No fault of the tire here. 

How does the rest of the tire and tube look? A sudden "bang" is usually the result of getting the tube stuck under the bead during installation... and it can take awhile before it blows. Or you might have run over something big and sharp, or...


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

To vouch for the TC, that wear could've easily been due the same skidding and whatnot suggested to contribute to the tear.

Still, I will stand by Continental. I had two blowouts on a rough decent. That has never happened to me. You possibly had a single defect, or the nature of your tube blowing influenced the severity of your tire damage - we don't know. But it's pretty clear that you're jumping the gun to say it's a more widespread issue than it actually may be.


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## Hank Stamper (Sep 9, 2009)

alias33 said:


> I asked what they could do for me regarding the wheel, considering it was a tire that only had 80 miles total on it


I've used those tires and it takes WAY more than 80 miles for the seem down the middle and those little strands of rubber to wear off like is the case with your tires. So you may have a valid gripe here but you've discredited yourself by exaggerating for dramatic effect.


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## rm -rf (Feb 27, 2006)

The GP4000 is my favorite tire. But this is the second sidewall rip post I've seen lately.

I couldn't find the one I saw last week, but I did google this one: Link
Has this ever happened to anybody else before? I was biking home from Sauvie yesterday, about two miles to go and my tire popped due to a tear in the sidewall. On one hand I was happy it didn't happen earlier in the ride since I was too lazy to dig up my tire pump before leaving in the morning yesterday. And since I couldn't find my pump I decided it was pointless to even bother carrying a spare tube. On the other hand the tire was a Continental 4000s -- $$$. They're supposed to be triple-belted but I guess that doesn't include the sidewall.​


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## orange_julius (Jan 24, 2003)

11.4 said:


> First of all, it looks like a lot of mileage on that tire already, as someone else pointed out.
> 
> Second, it looks like the tire flatted, whether explosively or not, but then you were skidding on a flat tire, grinding both the rim AND the tire at that point. Note how the tire damage matches the rim damage, and how the tire damage is not a simple rip but a grinding separation. I'd say you had a flat and when you had to steer or brake, you started skidding the rear wheel and totalled both tire and wheel at the same time. If you had a critical casing failure, it's very low likelihood that it would be exactly where you were skidding your wheel against the pavement, plus it would be a very different kind of rupture.
> 
> I'd suggest you rethink what happened here and not jump all over Conti over an event that may simply have been a handling problem after a reasonably routine flat. You presumably didn't even realize the tire had flatted until you were skidding to control the bike. Not user error, but not tire failure either.


Yep, very good analysis (I think anyway, given the very limited information). 

Just like with most post-accident investigations done via the interwebs, given no access to the failed item nor the incident area, it's hard to say what is the cause and what is the consequence. From my limited information it seems that a flat or inner tube blowout cause the tire and rim to grind onto the road, and tire loses big time. 

All high-end supple tires have weaker sidewall than "commuter" or "training" tires. So in any contest between the sidewall and the rim, the rim will win 99.99% of the time. 

Plus, if it were a very hot day it could be that a worn or weakened sidewall couldn't keep the pressure of the inner tube anymore due to heat buildup in the rim, tire, inner tube, and the pressurized tire within. Although this itself would not necessarily yield two tears along the rim that are symmetric across the rim. The resulting flat probably would, assuming the rider kept upright.


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## ridenfish39 (Jun 20, 2008)

I had a Michelin Pro Race 3 do the exact same thing, and I only had a few miles on it. Luckily I didn't destroy my rim.


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## Mdeth1313 (Nov 1, 2001)

one more reason I'm glad I ride tubulars.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

I guess I must have been really lucky to get over 4,000 miles out of my last set of Conti 4000s.


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## QuattroCreep (Nov 30, 2009)

skyliner1004 said:


> and you have the tire on backwards


Tire is on the right way the bike is up side down.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

rm -rf said:


> The GP4000 is my favorite tire. But this is the second sidewall rip post I've seen lately.


Another common cause of sidewall rips... brake pads that contact the tire. Pretty easy to do really...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Ventruck said:


> Still, I will stand by Continental. I had two blowouts on a rough decent. That has never happened to me.


Details?


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## tarwheel2 (Jul 7, 2005)

It could have been a defective tire, but that doesn't mean that all GP 4000s are bad. Defects happen in the manufacture of any product. I've been riding GP 4000s almost exclusively for the past 3 years with very few flats and great durability and handling. 

It is also possible that the tire was mounted wrong. If the tube was pinched under the bead in mounting the tire, which is easy to do if you're not careful, it sometimes takes a few miles for a flat to develop. I know because this has happened to me, and I've learned from the mistake.


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## cdhbrad (Feb 18, 2003)

Agreed on the wear time, I put a new set on recently and have at least 200 miles on them and the rear seam just wore down with the front pretty much still intact. OP's tires seem to have had a lot more than 80 miles on them.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

*Nothing dramatic to share, just the "obvious".*



rruff said:


> Details?


-They happened on separate occasions (one front, one rear) @ ~30mi/h. I found the front blowout/flat on the descent much harder to control. Cause was either the generally chipped terrain, or a sharp rock.

-I managed to not fall. This was largely due to the fact that I never had to turn so I could concentrate on progressively slowing down and staying upright

-No rim damage, but both were pretty untrue as a result of the blowouts and riding out a bit to a stop. Trued the front myself. Performance played me out of a replacement for the worse rear by truing for 2 seconds and saying it's fine (in fact they just made it even worse  ). Nonetheless, my truing skill prevailed once again and it's been a week since that blowout to find that things are well together (and true).

-The GP4000's (25c, black so it's an "S" version) did not tear. I'm still using the same pair. If anything there's some scuffing on the outer edges of the treads. I'm never at such leaning angles to care for the possible "loss of grip". As said, been on for a week ever since, going down that hill. Same tire pressures and errthing. No complaints.

-Ninjas, thousands of them.


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## heathb (Nov 1, 2008)

The moral of the story, don't use pimp wheels when your just out training.

S**t happens and there's no need in having to pay out that kind of money when it does.

As for me I have used Conti tires and tubes including the 4000(s) and Gatorskins for years and love the way they ride and hold up.


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## Opus51569 (Jul 21, 2009)

Maybe I'm just easily impressed, but I'm amazed they're setting you up with a new tire. For all they know you could have been riding that century over broken beer bottles.

Sorry to hear about the rim, though and glad you weren't hurt.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Ventruck said:


> -They happened on separate occasions (one front, one rear) @ ~30mi/h. I found the front blowout/flat on the descent much harder to control. Cause was either the generally chipped terrain, or a sharp rock.


So it was a pinch flat, or do you know? When stuff like this happens it would be great if we could figure out why, so maybe we can prevent them. I spend a fair amount of time going down hills at ~50mph, so if tires are blowing spontaneously I'd like to know about it while I'm still alive. 

In >100k miles of riding I've never had a tire blow off the rim or any tire/tube failure that wasn't a direct result of hitting something. I can think of a few ways this can happen due to poor tube and tire installation... and frankly other than that, it seems unlikely... maybe close to impossible.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

cdhbrad said:


> Agreed on the wear time, I put a new set on recently and have at least 200 miles on them and the rear seam just wore down with the front pretty much still intact. OP's tires seem to have had a lot more than 80 miles on them.


haha, really?! I've got 8 other guys that noticed the "new nubbie stripe" on the tires before we started the ride and the front tire still has them too. I'm pretty sure I have zero reasons to lie about the mileage on the tire, the section pictured is the part that was skidded on so it looks worse for wear then the rest of the tire.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

i went through 3 sets of GP4000 (not S, not black chilli, just a regular GP4000, 23mm size)....

In all cases (that was 6 tyres) I replaced them before they were worn out - due to sidewalls looking suspicious. I never got to the case when the tyre burst because I regularly inspect my tyres. In some cases the tyre only had about 2000-3000km on it and in other cases closer to 7000-8000km but after 3 sets I do believe on a GP4000 tyre it will be the sidewall that will wear out before the road contact surface will. I think it may be their design trade-off. 

Needless to say I switched - to Michelin Krylion, since I dont race, Krylion has more puncture resistance and stronger sidewalls and lasts longer too. It is a little heavier than GP4000 and it's grip (in wet) is not as good but it is the trade-off I was willing to make.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

acid_rider said:


> i went through 3 sets of GP4000 (not S, not black chilli, just a regular GP4000, 23mm size)....
> 
> In all cases (that was 6 tyres) I replaced them before they were worn out - due to sidewalls looking suspicious. I never got to the case when the tyre burst because I regularly inspect my tyres. In some cases the tyre only had about 2000-3000km on it and in other cases closer to 7000-8000km but after 3 sets I do believe on a GP4000 tyre it will be the sidewall that will wear out before the road contact surface will. I think it may be their design trade-off.
> 
> Needless to say I switched - to Michelin Krylion, since I dont race, Krylion has more puncture resistance and stronger sidewalls and lasts longer too. It is a little heavier than GP4000 and it's grip (in wet) is not as good but it is the trade-off I was willing to make.


Conti definitely had a casing problem at one point. However, that was quite definitely fixed and hasn't been a recurring problem since then. Based on the tires you had, you were on the end of that problem. I can't think of a tire brand that hasn't had a run of problems attributable to a design shortcoming (not necessarily a flaw, but at least an excessive fragility tradeoff in pursuit of weight, comfort, whatever). 

Isn't it time to lock this thread and move on?


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## Rollo Tommassi (Feb 5, 2004)

*Tire pressure?*

don't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread, curious to know


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

It's just not coincidence that the damage to the braking surface of the wheel precisely matches the torn area. The bike hit something and that's how the sidewall was torn. Case closed. That's not to say you didn't have a bad blowout but that sidewall wasn't torn by that, it was torn afterwards. 
I'd ease up on talk about a boycott. It doesn't look like you have valid leverage to pressure them into giving you a wheel.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

Could be a faulty tire -- I've worked with two faulty batches from a different brand and they separated in a similar way. Could be a manufacturing issue. Could have been damaged in storage and handling. Could have been damaged by a bad install. Could have been damaged on the road (sounds like a lousy one), causing a blowout, and the current condition of the tire is a result of the wheel being skidded on the pavement.

But your title was "Conti GP 4000s blow outs", implying more than one. What happened with blowout 2?


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

acid_rider said:


> Needless to say I switched - to Michelin Krylion, since I dont race, Krylion has more puncture resistance and stronger sidewalls and lasts longer too.


The older non-BC GP4000 tires were not so great in many categories, but the new ones no longer have fragile sidewalls, the rolling resistance is much lower, and they are longer lasting as well. They last longer than the Krylions for me.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

I was running 115 in the rear and 107 in the front, both the same tires and same mileage, it was only one tire that blew out, the "outs" is referring to the two sidewalls that blew.


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## dracula (Mar 9, 2010)

acid_rider said:


> i went through 3 sets of GP4000 (not S, not black chilli, just a regular GP4000, 23mm size)....
> 
> In all cases (that was 6 tyres) I replaced them before they were worn out - due to sidewalls looking suspicious. I never got to the case when the tyre burst because I regularly inspect my tyres. In some cases the tyre only had about 2000-3000km on it and in other cases closer to 7000-8000km but after 3 sets I do believe on a GP4000 tyre it will be the sidewall that will wear out before the road contact surface will. I think it may be their design trade-off.
> 
> Needless to say I switched - to Michelin Krylion, since I dont race, Krylion has more puncture resistance and stronger sidewalls and lasts longer too. It is a little heavier than GP4000 and it's grip (in wet) is not as good but it is the trade-off I was willing to make.


Michelin tyres are high on my favorite list. They produce robust tyres. I am not saying that no one has ever experienced a Michelin tyre failure. Although, reports and reviews rarely ever mention sidewallblow outs or bulging/gashes in Michelin threads/rubber.

And of course Conti tyres are junk. No matter what Conti tells you they have had sidewall problems and still have sidewall problems and will have face sidewall problems in all the years to come. I also had a sidewall blowout some years back and since then have been refusing to buy any more Continental tyres. Conti would do better removing the label "Made in Germany".

However, all this can only be topped by shitty Schwalbe. German newsgroups are inundated by Schwalbe (road biycyle) tyre failures. But what the idiots do they are still buying Schwalbe tyres. There are prodigies out there who received 5 times faulty replacement tyres through Schwalbe customer service. The idiots rather go die in a crash instead of changing tyre brand.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

alias33 said:


> the section pictured is the part that was skidded on so it looks worse for wear then the rest of the tire.


Yes, and you've so far failed to comment on the speculation that:

a) The photo you provided is evidence that locking up a wheel and skidding a flat tire across the asphalt can indeed rip holes in the tire sidewalls. 
b) Your tire blew for some unknown reason... but you did not mention hitting anything, and your photo provides no evidence of what caused this. 
c) So your original assertion is likely wrong, and you've not provided any more information. Since the most common cause of a spontaneous sudden blow-out is pinching the tube during installation, I'm going to place my money on that one... which would be no fault of the tire at all.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

dracula said:


> Michelin tyres are high on my favorite list. They produce robust tyres. I am not saying that no one has ever experienced a Michelin tyre failure. Although, reports and reviews rarely ever mention sidewallblow outs or bulging/gashes in Michelin threads/rubber.


Read the reviews... sidewall cuts and gashes are common on the Pro3s... and in my experience. Not so for the GP4000S. I've got ~12k miles on them with probably 500 miles on gravel roads... not one problem. Most durable tire I've owned... better than the Krylion in that department.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

rruff said:


> So it was a pinch flat, or do you know?


Involving rocks and/or potholes, "pinch flat" would be the most appropriate way to describe it. I know long before those flats I was riding for a few hundred miles no problem, with visits to the same hill so I'm inclined to rule out installation error.

Upon inspection, no holes on the tires, but like 10-12 on the tubes - most of which is likely due to me rolling on them until I came to a safe stop.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

11.4 said:


> It looks like the tire flatted, whether explosively or not, but then you were skidding on a flat tire, grinding both the rim AND the tire at that point. *Note how the tire damage matches the rim damage, and how the tire damage is not a simple rip but a grinding separation. I'd say you had a flat and when you had to steer or brake, you started skidding the rear wheel and totalled both tire and wheel at the same time.* If you had a critical casing failure, it's very low likelihood that it would be exactly where you were skidding your wheel against the pavement, plus it would be a very different kind of rupture.
> 
> I'd suggest you rethink what happened here and not jump all over Conti over an event that may simply have been a handling problem after a reasonably routine flat. You presumably didn't even realize the tire had flatted until you were skidding to control the bike. Not user error, but not tire failure either.


My thoughts exactly. I don't see any possible way a blowout would cause damage like that to any rim.


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## PeanutButterBreath (Dec 4, 2005)

A tire can only blow out once. After the initial breach, all the pressure is gone.

It really looks more like the tire flatted and was subsequently ground down when the rear wheel was locked (for whatever reason).


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## memphisr32 (Feb 3, 2009)

I have had the same thing happen to me within 10 miles of the first ride on the tires. Luckely the LBS took care of it and have not had problems with the 4000s since then.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

memphisr32 said:


> I have had the same thing happen to me within 10 miles of the first ride on the tires. Luckely the LBS took care of it and have not had problems with the 4000s since then.


how recent was the tire purchaced? Who installed the tire? Got a pic or two, did it destroy your rim also?


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## ljfran2383 (Aug 27, 2009)

Oh No! My fav. tire is actually complet sh#!???? I guess I shouldn't ride till I get other tires. :cryin: :cryin: :cryin: :cryin:


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## skyliner1004 (May 9, 2010)

overinflated tube causing rips on both sides of tire? + OP was riding on the rim long enough to rip the tire on both sides? user error or single instance, i dont care.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

any update? i had a similar blowout of a schwalbe ultremo r.1 on the weekend. same looking rip, damage to rim, was descending and crashed hard, broke arm requiring surgery and abrasions all over body...


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

Typical "user error" causes of a blown tire and/or sidewall rip are:

1) Getting the tube pinched under the bead during installation. Sometimes it can take awhile for this to blow, and heat and side loads (descending) are a good time for it to happen. 

2) Brake pads that contact the tire. It eventually wears a slice in the sidewall just above the bead.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

neither of these - looks like tire compromised by pressue against rim heres a pic - tear on both sides. notice the line that is from rim/tire contact. bad typing due to broken arm


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

heres the pic


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

tube also damaged at this site - suggest casing ripped causing tube to blow?


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## aries14 (Sep 4, 2009)

Wishing you a very speedy recovery!


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

stevesbike said:


> tube also damaged at this site - suggest casing ripped causing tube to blow?


I doubt this could be the cause of your blowout... looks like the OP's where the damage was done by sliding a locked up flat tire on the ground. Or maybe you hit something very sharp to make the sidewall rip like that. Is there any other damage to the tire or tube that might be the site of the original issue?


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

I looked at it in more detail - tear starts at seam, this is only site of damage, tube is fine everywhere else, and rip is on both sides of tire. I've been riding/racing since 1980s, mount tires really carefully (inflate a bit, push tire in to inspect tube not caught etc) and never had a blowout like this. lots of high speed pinch flats but never something so catastrophic.


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## acid_rider (Nov 23, 2004)

*overheated?*



stevesbike said:


> any update? i had a similar blowout of a schwalbe ultremo r.1 on the weekend. same looking rip, damage to rim, was descending and crashed hard, broke arm requiring surgery and abrasions all over body...


some thoughts

is it possible you overheated the rims with constant long braking on descent and this blew the tyre? what tyre pressure were you using? just one thought. another possibility is that sidewall was somehow damaged in an earlier ride and it finally blew up on the descent with extra load on tyre due to braking, speed etc.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> I looked at it in more detail - tear starts at seam, this is only site of damage, tube is fine everywhere else, and rip is on both sides of tire. I've been riding/racing since 1980s, mount tires really carefully (inflate a bit, push tire in to inspect tube not caught etc) and never had a blowout like this. lots of high speed pinch flats but never something so catastrophic.


But rruf and I and others are saying that this kind of failure isn't a blowout or casing failure attributable to Conti. You'll get exactly this damage if your brake block cut through the casing. The blowout pattern on the tire is so large as to be really suspect -- if you blow a tube out on almost any casing failure you aren't going to get multiple blowout points (and I see two right there on that same side, if the photo doesn't obscure anything). One exits the air so fast you don't get a second. Unless what you actually have going on are multiple cuts caused by riding the flat tire into the rim. I think you just skidded it and cut the inner tube in the process, after it was flat. Note how the casing failure tends to start right at the rim bead and move upwards a bit? Just what I'd expect if the tire was being dragged along without pressure. 

It seems like we're trying to flog Conti here for what now might, in the absolute worst case, be two flats. Hell, I've had that many tire failures with high-end Conti auto racing tires. I don't really think there's a serious point to be made here. No one is trying to convince you to believe a different point of view, just not to label the problem as a generic Conti problem. With all the coverage this thread is getting, there's still no evidence for that.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

in my case its a schwalbe, not conti. i can post a pic of the brake - it is definitely not touching the tire. i just want to figure out what might have caused this - i've never had a failure like this in what i estimate to be over 20000 hours of riding.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

here's the brake - reynolds rim, swissstop carbon pad


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

not a great pic (photographer taking vicidin) but shows rip start at seam on left - can see threads ets


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

vicidin at work -heres the pic


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

the scenario i think is most likely is that hard braking over-stressed the seam causing it to rip. is that plausible?


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

Take that old tire, go to a section of casing without a rupture, and use some pliers or slip-joints to tear off the bead. You'll see a different kind of tear.

I'd agree that it isn't the brake block -- if it were, you'd have a tear line running parallel to to the bead, not running up the casing towards the tread. But what you have is still precisely what you'd have if you simply flatted and then tried to steer/brake/etc. on a flatted tire. I just don't see the blowout theory, or at least not unless you had a prior puncture that destabilized the tire. 

Just another reason why tubulars are the way to go and nobody should ride clinchers. (Sorry everyone, just thought I'd switch from one overdone argument to another.)


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

i don't have an axe to grind - just trying to understand what put me in the hospital. I don't think you're accounting for the fact that the ripped area is the only place where the tube is damaged - I've checked it carfefully for other leaks - none. The deflation was violent - I've had plenty of pinch flats going downhill but nothing like this. Between blowout and crash maybe 5 seconds so not a lot of time to be rolling on a flat tire. It was into a right corner - flatted, and ended up crashing into the enbankment across road (using my face)...


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## milnerpt (Jul 20, 2009)

I know you said they were schwable ultremo R.1., buuuut just to make sure they werent last year's models that were recalled for the problem you are describing

http://www.schwalbetires.com/ultremo_warning_home

as for the conti's... i ride em. no issues. check your pads.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

it was the new version - these were the 1st pair I was trying - usually ride conti and have had no issues. I"m wondering if the ultremo r.1 are still too fragile. sent emails/pics to schwalbe but haven't heard anything


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

what kind of tubes were you running? light wt buytal or standard (heavy) tube?


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

stevesbike said:


> i don't have an axe to grind - just trying to understand what put me in the hospital. I don't think you're accounting for the fact that the ripped area is the only place where the tube is damaged - I've checked it carfefully for other leaks - none. The deflation was violent - I've had plenty of pinch flats going downhill but nothing like this. Between blowout and crash maybe 5 seconds so not a lot of time to be rolling on a flat tire. It was into a right corner - flatted, and ended up crashing into the enbankment across road (using my face)...


I get all this. But what everyone is pointing out is that you may have had a smaller puncture or blowout or whatever before the damage to the sidewall. If you're sliding around on a flat tire and chewing up your casing that badly, it's inevitable that the inner tube would get ruptured in precisely the same area. So the fact that they are in the same place doesn't point to a casing failure. You had something else that happened first, quite likely a fast deflation. Perhaps it was a blowout from the innertube slipping out from under the casing, perhaps a fault of the base tape. Whatever, it deflated the tire rapidly and then you simply ground to a stop on that torn up part of the tire.


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## thumper8888 (Apr 7, 2009)

What is this endless talk/theorizing about the blowout causing the sidewall tears? It's completely obvious that the rims are damaged EXACTLY where the tires are torn. Some outside object -- road, curb etc. -- did the damage to the tire and rim and there is no other possible explanation.
It's not possible that the sidewalls would blow out and that the bike then hit something in exactly the same place as the tears.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

11.4 said:


> I get all this. But what everyone is pointing out is that you may have had a smaller puncture or blowout or whatever before the damage to the sidewall. If you're sliding around on a flat tire and chewing up your casing that badly, it's inevitable that the inner tube would get ruptured in precisely the same area. So the fact that they are in the same place doesn't point to a casing failure. You had something else that happened first, quite likely a fast deflation. Perhaps it was a blowout from the innertube slipping out from under the casing, perhaps a fault of the base tape. Whatever, it deflated the tire rapidly and then you simply ground to a stop on that torn up part of the tire.


i'm taking it in today to have it inspected


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## Cpk (Aug 1, 2009)

seems like his tube had a bit of a pinch. I rode for a while on a slightly pinched tube that didn't blow until I bumped the pressure from 120 to 130. Then I was had just made a turn was not going hard at all and BOOM, tire sorta exploded. I had ridden probably 50 miles on it before this happened and if hadn't raised the pressure it might have been a good deal farther, or not


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

For me, the GP 4000 s tires have been a total FAIL!
After reading everyones praise I bought a set. I really wanted to like them too. 
First ride I noticed not as supple as the Pro race. Oh well no big, I'm sure they'll be more durable. During a ride I heard a snap sound, like a cap gun. What was that? Kept riding, no flat, must have been something else. Pulled over for a pee break and saw a 3/4" by 3" piece of tread missing, white cords showing and all. WTF? Rode it home about 20 miles, luckily it didn't blow. About 300 miles on that one.
With about 1k miles on the front, yesterday I saw a nice bulge in the side wall. So off came that one.
Worst dollar per mile set of tires ever.
Now I'm not saying I think theese tires are crap. I'm just saying that was my experience with them. Who knows what caused them to fail.
I think I'll try road tubless next or maybe some krylion carbons in a 25c.
"Your results may vary".


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## been200mph (May 28, 2004)

I may just hold out for the new Firestone 500 radial bike tires...


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## calle_betis (Jun 30, 2006)

skyliner1004 said:


> and you have the tire on backwards



Here's a question I've never thought about until this comment. Are roadbike tires "direction specific"?


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## nightfend (Mar 15, 2009)

I see people complain about tires blowing out quite a bit. A good thing to check is your brake calipers to make sure your brake pads aren't rubbing against the tire wall when you apply the brakes. People switch wheels sometimes but don't check the brake pad alignment. Not all wheels measure exactly the same, so sometimes you need to adjust the pads to prevent them from rubbing against the sidewalls.


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## frdfandc (Nov 27, 2007)

Personally I'd contribute the failure under the following guise.


Sh!t happens. Tires blow, tubes fail, stuff breaks. People crash and get hurt. Just some risks of riding a bike.


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## danielc (Oct 24, 2002)

Just to chime in, I switched over to a pair GP4000 after running Pro Races for several years and started having bad luck with flats on the Pro Race 3s. Anyway, the tires probably had a few hundred miles on them and one day before leaving for a ride I noticed a little black bump on the sidewall of my rear tire and thought it was just a piece of gunk that came off the road and stuck to the tire. I flicked at it and it wouldn't come off. Turns out it was the inner tube sticking out of the sidewall! Tire still had great pressure but I'm sure that was a blowout waiting to happen. 

Anyway, I deflated the wheel, patched the inside of the tire and re-inflated. So far so good and I'll probably look to replace that tire sooner rather than later. But it was definitely an odd occurrence that I never had with Michelin.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

danielc said:


> Just to chime in, I switched over to a pair GP4000 after running Pro Races for several years and started having bad luck with flats on the Pro Race 3s. Anyway, the tires probably had a few hundred miles on them and one day before leaving for a ride I noticed a little black bump on the sidewall of my rear tire and thought it was just a piece of gunk that came off the road and stuck to the tire. I flicked at it and it wouldn't come off. Turns out it was the inner tube sticking out of the sidewall! Tire still had great pressure but I'm sure that was a blowout waiting to happen.
> 
> Anyway, I deflated the wheel, patched the inside of the tire and re-inflated. So far so good and I'll probably look to replace that tire sooner rather than later. But it was definitely an odd occurrence that I never had with Michelin.


A small black bump? That sounds like a small sidewall cut. If you were having flats with Michelin tires, then had a small sidewall cut on a GP4000 (GP4000S or GP4000, by the way?), then say you never had problems with Michelin but feel you had one on a Conti? This doesn't really sound consistent. Please understand, I'm not necessarily even a big supporter of Contis, but I do stick to statistically significant failures. So far we haven't heard anything worth the length of this thread. Can we say that everyone has two days to post all their tire failures on Conti GP4000S's (and no other Conti model since the S is the model the OP started with). Then unless there's a statistically significant flood of cases, we lock this thread. There are more interesting things to write about.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

11.4 said:


> A small black bump? That sounds like a small sidewall cut. If you were having flats with Michelin tires, then had a small sidewall cut on a GP4000 (GP4000S or GP4000, by the way?), then say you never had problems with Michelin but feel you had one on a Conti? This doesn't really sound consistent. Please understand, I'm not necessarily even a big supporter of Contis, but I do stick to statistically significant failures. So far we haven't heard anything worth the length of this thread. Can we say that everyone has two days to post all their tire failures on Conti GP4000S's (and no other Conti model since the S is the model the OP started with). Then unless there's a statistically significant flood of cases, we lock this thread. There are more interesting things to write about.


why lock it if there are people having similar issues? If you don't like the thread or its content stay the hell out and don't read it, its called a forum for a reason.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

T K said:


> Worst dollar per mile set of tires ever.
> Now I'm not saying I think theese tires are crap.


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## MJCBH (Nov 25, 2002)

*Dang........*

I had my first tire failure cost me a race......a blown sidewall on a GP4000 S with under 500 miles. Also having some weird unraveling of threads around the bead on my training GP4000's tires (not sure if this is going to affect the strength of the tire). I understand there's tons of these tires on the road and this stuff happens, but with my experience with the tires since I switched to Conti's last season is now making me want to sell my stash of back-up tires and either try a new brand or switch back to my Michelin ProRace 2 and Krylions for racing and training. I'm lucky my tire didn't blow on a fast downhill.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

How did you "blow a sidewall"? Did you hit a rock or something else sharp? Pinch the tube under the bead during installation and have it blow the tire off while riding? Or something else? The sidewall on a tire (any of them) will certainly not blow without reason.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

MJCBH said:


> . Also having some weird unraveling of threads around the bead on my training GP4000's tires (not sure if this is going to affect the strength of the tire).


Recent happening for me as well. I don't know what to make of it. Hopefully it's nothing worse than minor loose threads on clothing.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

OK, in an effort to establish a statistically significant incidence of GP 4000S blowouts, I set up a cross bike with GP 4000S tires and am riding it every day on gnarly off-road downhills, long descents, road hazards of all kinds, off curbs, onto curbs, the like. No damage counts unless it's a simultaneous two-sided blowout with a full rupture of the tire and a grinding of the rim to shreds at the same place. This should be reproducible, right? If there's a problem with the tires, right?

Interim report: 386 miles on the wheels. One flat on a downhill that I caught because I was paying attention to my wheels, so I didn't wipe out or trash a wheel or lose my virgin faith in a particular tire model. It wasn't even a snakebite. And no sealant in the tubes either. Very disappointed that I didn't at least blow out one side of my tire. These ARE Continental GP 4000S's, after all -- the tire that likes to blow itself up. I'm riding every day on these wheels, waiting and expecting them to blow. No joy for today. I'll keep you updated. These Contis may disappoint me and actually stay in one piece. I'll have to make quite a scene about that.


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## Elfstone (Jun 27, 2006)

alias33 said:


> Today I was riding a century race with another group of guys and around mile 60 or 65 my BRAND NEW conti gp 4000s blows out (heard a loud bang) and I go skidding across the road sideways and my cleats are sliding across the pavement as well. I'm lucky that one of the oil trucks that frequent the road wasn't heading the other direction. This destroys my rear wheel (sram s60) and the tire's rear sidewall is torn in the same exact section on the left AND right section of the tire.
> 
> This is obviously a defect in the tire's sidewall. I called highway two (the distributor of the conti products) and they are sending me a tire free of charge but I'm up the creek with no paddle/rear wheel. I asked what they could do for me regarding the wheel, considering it was a tire that only had 80 miles total on it and there was nothing in the road as far as puntures and debris goes. I've been a bicycle mechanic for 10 years and have never seen anything like this, I've also had at least 6 sets of these exact tires (except for the "S" version) with no issue at all.
> 
> ...


Okay, I was one of the no Sayer's. But during yesterdays ride at about the 20 mile mark, I'm clipping at about 16 mph, when all of a sudden I hear a psssssssssssss. Immediately I start to feather the brakes and by the time I came to a full stop, the front tire was just letting out the last of the air. 

I get off the caad 8 and start to walk for the nearest shade, which just happens to be a tall tree with throne bushes. Trying to find a place for that helmet, shades and such are not lay down on the grown friendly. 

Now I'm ready to tackle this unwelcoming interference of what was turning out to be a real nice strong pace ride for me. I start taking what I need out of my saddle bag and lay everything down and find a spot to put down my bike after I remove the wheel. 

For the life of me I couldn't find where the tire blew, then I remembered this thread and started looking at the side of the tire. As I took my time turning the tire around, there it was, a rip, a tear or how ever you may describe it a blow out on the sidewall of the tire. 

I was fortunate that I was heading towards my favorite LBS to holler a the manager there which is a good person to know. While I patched the inside of the sidewall with those big white patch thingies. I had at least close to a dozen folks stop or slow down to ask me if I needed help or if I had everything. 

After patching the tire, trying in vain to patch the inner tube, ended up using my spare in the end and using a micro pump till it felt my arm would fall of and ending up with 45 lbs for all that bicep work out. Dang, I'm getting me a real pump soon, I don't even care how Fred that looks anymore. 

I made to the LBS and had to purchase a new GP 4000 to replace the GP 4000 that had under 300 miles on it, it still had the spare rubber around the middle of the tire and had not smoothed out yet. So, the OP may have a legitimate grip with GP 4000's because if this new GP 4000 sidewall blows out any time soon, I'm going to start looking for an alternative.

Peace


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## Sworker (Jul 22, 2010)

I installed a set with the black chili compound about 3 months ago. So far I have about 400-500 miles on them and so far so good. My buddy that owns the LBS has been using a set more miles then that with no issues. This post is pretty old, all tires can blow at some point in their lives.

BTW, carry C02, that is the only way to get any pressure into them. The little pump is worthless for a full load of air.


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## jermso (May 13, 2009)

funny to have stumbled upon this thread.

a couple of friends had the same sidewall tear with their 4000S some months back.

1 of them injured to due to that blow.

contis EPIC FAIL.


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## 11.4 (Mar 2, 2008)

This afternoon at my local shop just saw a Michelin Pro Race 3 with exactly the same tear, ruptured inner tube, and even the matching ground-down alloy rim in the same spot.


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## sgt (Apr 17, 2007)

*3000+ miles on GP4000s, no problems*

Put them on when I built up the bike... no issues, love the tires (better than Michelin Krylions, Bonty Race Lites or Vittorias IMHO) Did have some loose threads as described above, but nothing catastrophic. 

PS, one flat so far (rear, hit a tack, fixed and back on the road in 5 mins)


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Ventruck said:


>


Guess you should have read the rest. The part after what you quoted. Then you would not be so confused.


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## alias33 (Sep 15, 2008)

11.4 said:


> This afternoon at my local shop just saw a Michelin Pro Race 3 with exactly the same tear, ruptured inner tube, and even the matching ground-down alloy rim in the same spot.


hey good for you! :thumbsup: Pretty sure that tires never ever get recalled do they? Oh wait remember schwable r1's oh yeah they can get recalled. I'm still on my replacement set of tires and they are working fine and they are gp 4000's so its not like I'm boycotting them.


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

T K said:


> Guess you should have read the rest. The part after what you quoted. Then you would not be so confused.


I read the rest. However, if you admit that it was exclusively your experience, and that perhaps the tire wasn't crap on a universal level, then I don't see the need to capitalize on calling them out as a "total FAIL", "Worst dollar per mile set of tires ever." in the first place, and the "Your results may vary" remark at the end. Sounds like some attempt to squeeze in some bashing while trying to sound objective. 

That's like saying _"Chocolate is absolute crap..my experience with chocolate was....worst flavor evar...but maybe it's just my taste buds...each to their own"_ instead of simply saying _"My experience with chocolate was...and personally, I didn't like it"_


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## sgt (Apr 17, 2007)

*OK, now I'm confused...*



alias33 said:


> ...I'm still on my replacement set of tires and they are working fine and they are gp 4000's so its not like I'm boycotting them.


So you're not boycotting them, but you suggested that no one else ride them in the OP? 



alias33 said:


> I'd recomend that you all stay off these tires until Conti gets this issue resolved


Huh?

Tires are like every other component. Some work, some fail, and one man's feast is another man's poison. Next time, state the problem, maybe ask if anyone else has seen similar, and read the feedback carefully. No need to demagogue the issue.


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## otoman (Mar 8, 2004)

jermso said:


> funny to have stumbled upon this thread.
> 
> a couple of friends had the same sidewall tear with their 4000S some months back.
> 
> ...



Teammate of mine too, happened 2 weeks ago. Here is his description from our team forum:
"Btw - was riding on the greenway yesterday and blew a 12inch rip in my tire. It blew so fast I couldn't stop before I heard my rim grinding on the asphalt. Anyone ever had this happen."

Further discussion indicated that he didn't lock up the brake and skid the rear wheel, he rolled to a stop but was riding on the rim. Also, he was running 100 psi front, 110 rear, he weighs 185 lbs.

Totally agree, Contis FAIL. From the ridiculous rolling resistance to their historic falsification of thread counts (e.g. mutliply the burlap-like TPI x number of plies in the tire to get something that sounds like a sweet riding Vittoria or Veloflex), to their crappy "response" in the rain, to their garden-hose-out-of-a-freezer road feel, they suck.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

Strange. My Conti 4000S experience has been great. 

I've been riding and racing since 1985 and have used so many brands and models of tires (clincher and tubular) on so many bikes and wheels that it would be impossible to list them all. Last year I tried the 4000S and am amazed at how good they are. 

In particular, I'm amazed at their excellent cut resistance and tread wear. For a "race" tire, these beat anything I have used previously on those two dimensions. Grip and "feel" are on par with Vittoria CX and Michelin PR2 I'd used in recent years. I guess I just don't notice any bad handling characteristics. maybe I'm not sensitive enough, but when I ride I actually don't notice the 4000S tires at all, which is the desired "feel" for me. Same thing when I rode the other high-end tires. Just my experience... 

Back to the unfortunate blown sidewalls: I wonder if this is a case where there are so many sets of Conti 4000 tires out there that it's statistically inevitable we'd hear about a few anecdotal cases of "epic fail". In other words, if Conti has, say 50,000 model 4000 tires in customers' hands vs. Schwalbe Ultremo with say 1,000, the odds of us hearing about a Conti "epic fail" are 50x greater than the odds of hearing about a Schwalbe (or similarly low-volume) fail. I mean, there are a lot of Conti 4000 tires out there. Just a thought...


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## otoman (Mar 8, 2004)

very good thoughts, Wines of WA. I've been racing since 1987 so ya got me by a couple years, ya old coot  . But my experience with Contis has been what I described above. To each his own. 

Of course, Firestones were very very common on Ford Explorers too.


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## sanrensho (Jan 2, 2003)

I wonder if anyone has experienced these issues with the Attack/Force tires?

I was thinking of switching my rear Force to GP4000S, but this thread is making me think twice. Really happy with the Force rear, although I've switched out the front Attack for a tire that rides less harshly.


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## rruff (Feb 28, 2006)

My take on this entire thread is that most of it is a good case history of what can happen due to poor tube installation, poor brake pad adjustment, or hitting something sharp in the road. I'll keep riding my GP4000S.


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## pianopiano (Jun 4, 2005)

*Fwiw*

I am on my second set of GP4000S tires, and have had nothing but fantastic results with them. I managed to get about 5,000 kilometers out of the first set (worn well past the wear indicator holes, btw), until I finally flatted the front (rotated from the rear, and the 'worn out' one). I have put almost 2,500 kilometers on my current set, without any problem. 

I can sympathize with those who have had shitty luck with these tires, such as the OP and otoman, but in my experience, these tires have been very good to me.


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## Wines of WA (Jan 10, 2005)

rruff said:


> My take on this entire thread is that most of it is a good case history of what can happen due to poor tube installation, poor brake pad adjustment, or hitting something sharp in the road. I'll keep riding my GP4000S.


...and as I said before, thousands of riders on these tires. Combine those numbers with rruff's list of potential mishaps, and we very likely have our answer.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Ventruck said:


> I read the rest. However, if you admit that it was exclusively your experience, and that perhaps the tire wasn't crap on a universal level, then I don't see the need to capitalize on calling them out as a "total FAIL", "Worst dollar per mile set of tires ever." in the first place, and the "Your results may vary" remark at the end. Sounds like some attempt to squeeze in some bashing while trying to sound objective.
> 
> That's like saying _"Chocolate is absolute crap..my experience with chocolate was....worst flavor evar...but maybe it's just my taste buds...each to their own"_ instead of simply saying _"My experience with chocolate was...and personally, I didn't like it"_


They were a FAIL for "ME". Worst dollar per mile for "Me". That was "MY" experience. I'm sure that was pretty clear for everyone else.
Are you just looking for some b.s. reason to pick a fight or are you just dense?


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## jmoryl (Sep 5, 2004)

I just replaced a rear Conti 4000 that was still borderline usable with more than 5000 mi. on it. In that time I had one ordinary flat due to a tiny glass shard.
So yes, I think these are pretty good tires. Just for laughs, I weighed the new and old tires and found that the worn tire was 25 grams lighter - weight weenies take note!


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## Ventruck (Mar 9, 2009)

T K said:


> Are you just looking for some b.s. reason to pick a fight or are you just dense?


Honestly, no. 

Just saying, that despite pointing out that it was your experience, it's as if you're making out those tires as generally terrible with how far you go out of your way to express the worst of that experience - as opposed to just stating the experience in itself. 

I said this in my previous post, but you went to defending a point of yours I already acknowledged and questioning my intellect and comprehension - which perhaps I should be doing to you. If anything, you're shedding light on any remotely-possible "fight" to come about with how you've been responding.


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## T K (Feb 11, 2009)

Ventruck said:


> Honestly, no.
> 
> Just saying, that despite pointing out that it was your experience, it's as if you're making out those tires as generally terrible


I bought those tires because of the high praise they get here. Many people really like them. My experience with them was not so great. I never said they were terrible in general. That's why I said "I'm not saying they're crap." Who knows why mine failed. Road? Alignment of the planets? I don't know. I do know they must not be so terrible or so many would not love them. I thought I went out of my way to explain all that in my first post. Others here however have stated they do think they suck, in general. I never did.
So, lets just go to Sam's, have a couple of beers, watch the sailboats go by and who knows, maybe we'll become BFF's.
Anyway, enough about us.


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## thien (Feb 18, 2004)

Hey guys,

Good discussion here, sorry to hear about the blowouts. These sound like isolated incidents though and not indicative of the majority of user experiences.

Seems this thread has run it's course, we're gonna lock it.


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