# TdF '15 Stage 4 Jul 7 Discuss'n spoilers Seraing-Cambrai



## PJay (May 28, 2004)

TdF '15 Stage 4 Jul 7 Discuss'n spoilers Seraing-Cambrai

This is a 130 mile flat ride getting the Tour into France. There is one set of climber points early on, then a mid-way sprint point about half-way, then a fairly smooth second half. This suggests that fireworks might be seen for points, but the entire peloton may morph around the desire to preserve standings and preserve MJ. (If Cancellara holds on to MJ as I write early during stage 3, his team should be able to again keep him in MJ on this stage 4).

The final 3 KM mostly look eventless. There are two tight right-turns in a row at about 500M, with a straight shot for the finish line once those are cleared. Sprinter's Delight.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Sagan wins this stage.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

It snuck up on me: this is a cobblestone stage! Supposedly, six or seven spans of pave distributed along the way, including not far from the end.

If someone knows a site for good info on how much pave and where, please post. Thanks! Good luck, riders!


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## fazel (Mar 4, 2012)

*In-depth Stage Analysis*

Can be found here:

CyclingQuotes.com 2015 Tour de France route analysis

It appears that, compared to last year's stage with cobbles, this year's is longer overall, but has a fewer cobbles and the sectors are less difficult. Most of the sections occur during the second half of the race.



PJay said:


> It snuck up on me: this is a cobblestone stage! Supposedly, six or seven spans of pave distributed along the way, including not far from the end.
> 
> If someone knows a site for good info on how much pave and where, please post. Thanks! Good luck, riders!


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## fazel (Mar 4, 2012)

Skewer said:


> Sagan wins this stage.


Will he be given free reign or will he have to marshall Contador through the cobbles?


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## AJL (Jul 9, 2009)

fazel said:


> Will he be given free reign or will he have to marshall Contador through the cobbles?


I really don't know, since Oleg might weigh in on this, given that he's such a calm and relaxed guy (j/k) - he might be itching to have a stage win. I think any DS would want Sagan lead the Saxo group through the last six cobbled sections to keep Contador safe.

In a quick look at the forecast, it looks like the rain should hold off till the evening - which is good for the TdF. It be a different story if it were PR (rain would be interesting).


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## radripperaj (Mar 7, 2015)

What would be nice to see is Tony Martin winning this stage or at least getting in the Yellow for one day. seems like he has been fighting so hard the past two days and keeps missing it by one or two seconds. I dont know how suited he is for cobbles or this stage, just some hopeful thinking.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Tomorrow it's all about the pave. Rain or shine, there will be crashes, so it's about staying clean and not going down in one or more of them. Froome will be nervous - he didn't do well on cobbles last year. I predict the yellow jersey change hands again tomorrow.


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

Wind and rain will reveal the best team. Ergo, Nibali wins the day behind Boom and Fuglsang (a repeat of last year's Stage 5 finish). 

Team Sky will defend and keep Froome in yellow. No real shake up in the order.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Best team on the cobbles -- Etixx-Quick Step. If betting, my money would be on Stybar for the stage, and maybe even yellow, depending on how the 9 ahead of him in GC hold up.


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## il sogno (Jul 15, 2002)

Cav should be the lead out man for Tony Martin.


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## FujiSteve (Nov 12, 2014)

ibericb said:


> Tomorrow it's all about the pave. Rain or shine, there will be crashes, so it's about staying clean and not going down in one or more of them. Froome will be nervous - he didn't do well on cobbles last year. I predict the yellow jersey change hands again tomorrow.


Oh Gawd - here we go again. 

Just for the record, He didn't even get near the cobbles. He crashed in the previous stage and again before they got to those sections and did not turn one pedal stroke on pave.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

You're right.

He bit the dust in the equivalent stage. He'll still be uptight.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Last time I saw the media going this nuts over the Pinarello k8 suspension, Team Sky and their k8 bikes got utterly crushed.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Contador has started his bike switching antics already. And now Uran has followed suit and done the same. At first the commentators were trying to say it was a coincidence and that they both flatted, but they showed Uran's bike up close and there was no flat and he was having no issues with it. It's pretty clear that their "backup" bikes are anything but and instead a bike setup in a different way all together. They noted they had different rims, different tires and different wrap on the bars at least.

I don't see any problem with it as long as it's allowed in the rules and everyone can do it if they want. Only problem I have is with the peloton slowing down for the GC candidates' mechanical which then turns out to be an advantageous bike switch and not a mechanical at all.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

Wow - this first week has been anything but boring. The grit being shown on the cobbles is amazing. The major contenders are burning matches to hang in that narrow line. Second-tier contenders are right up there.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

anyone seen nairo?


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

Nairo's hanging in there. He's right there not too far from the front.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Nice work by Froome to not crash there.


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## Skewer (Sep 13, 2011)

Sagan freelances. He says screw my teamates and overrated Contador. I'll get the green jersey and stage wins myself.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

pinot completely losing his s^%$!


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Fdj and Pinot losing time and making a scene


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

what is nibali doing?


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

from 8km, i say contador comes out the best of the major contenders tody - nibali and froome played too hard


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Go Tony Go


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Wow great finish.


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## Jwiffle (Mar 18, 2005)

So what happened? Why didn't Froome crash? Wasn't the plan for him to crash on the cobbles?

Great ride by Tony! Wasn't he on a teammates bike at the end, too?


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

Great action. Nice finish. All the contenders still in the mix (except Pinot).


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Jwiffle said:


> So what happened? Why didn't Froome crash? Wasn't the plan for him to crash on the cobbles?
> 
> Great ride by Tony! Wasn't he on a teammates bike at the end, too?


He was indeed not on his own bike.

Yet again for all the chatter of the k8 suspension system.... Sky has nothing to show for it.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Jwiffle said:


> So what happened? Why didn't Froome crash? Wasn't the plan for him to crash on the cobbles?
> 
> Great ride by Tony! Wasn't he on a teammates bike at the end, too?


He almost did. Got elbowed into a curb and barely managed to keep it up.

Yeah, Trentin's bike. Had been on it for a while. Beast ride.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

radripperaj said:


> What would be nice to see is Tony Martin winning this stage or at least getting in the Yellow for one day. seems like he has been fighting so hard the past two days and keeps missing it by one or two seconds. I dont know how suited he is for cobbles or this stage, just some hopeful thinking.


Well played, sir. Well played.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

*Why were Nibali and Froome grabbing the reins in the final cobblestone section?*

Why were Nibali and Froome grabbing the reins in the final cobblestone section?

Martin had a goal, and played it well- could he have been beat? Maybe, maybe not. Is he a threat to the overall podium? Not really.

So, why were Nibali and Froome riding like they were battling for the summit of Tourmalet?

Arguably, Froome had a great team today, and if Sky could have covered Martin's initial jump, others would have lept, also, and reeled Martin in. But Nibali and Froome rode hard in the front, just keeping the pace high, which in the end really did not knock out anyone. Froome could have been smart to hang out with Contador, or work a bit harder and gain maybe a few seconds on Contador. I don't get it.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

PJay said:


> Why were Nibali and Froome grabbing the reins in the final cobblestone section?
> 
> Martin had a goal, and played it well- could he have been beat? Maybe, maybe not. Is he a threat to the overall podium? Not really.
> 
> ...


That new miracle suspension system in the Sky Pinarello k8 bikes made all the difference, today. I know 

Yet again Sky shows they need remedial racing tactics schooling, seems to me. Fancy rear suspension can't compensate for brains, evidently.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

> Why were Nibali and Froome grabbing the reins in the final cobblestone section?


They were doing it because at that point they had a gap on Contador and Quintana but the others in the Nibali / Froome group wouldn't co-operate.


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## ibericb (Oct 28, 2014)

Good call.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

The K8 may / may not have made a difference. It's there to reduce rider fatigue, not necessarily to win stages.

Lemond said he thought it was a good idea for this stage. Kelly said that he though it would make no difference because these were not real cobbles like you get throughout the P-R. Take your pick.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

coldash said:


> The K8 may / may not have made a difference. It's there to reduce rider fatigue, not necessarily to win stages.
> 
> Lemond said he thought it was a good idea for this stage. Kelly said that he though it would make no difference because these were not real cobbles like you get throughout the P-R. Take your pick.


Actually, Kelly said in his thick sccent and I quote, "It won't turn a donkey into a race horse"


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## Cinelli 82220 (Dec 2, 2010)

Jwiffle said:


> Great ride by Tony! Wasn't he on a teammates bike at the end, too?


That was great! He switched bikes with Matteo Trentin, wins the stage and the yellow jersey.

Meanwhile Pinot has a hissy fit when a team mate offers up a bike because he wants his own bike. See the look on the mechanics face: "Here's your push Thibault now get lost". Loses three minutes. Idiot.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Cinelli 82220 said:


> That was great! He switched bikes with Matteo Trentin, wins the stage and the yellow jersey.
> 
> Meanwhile FDJ has a hissy fit when a team mate offers up a bike because he wants his own bike. Loses three minutes. Idiot.


Yup. Tony Martin rides the same distance on a teammate's bike and wins. Talk about delicious irony.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

Marc said:


> Actually, Kelly said in his thick sccent and I quote, "It won't turn a donkey into a race horse"


Actually, he retracted that a few minutes later but the gist was the same. He was reacting to Fletcha's spiel about the K8 which he (Kelly) suggested had more to do with marketing. He also said that 25 tires were all that was required for these (i.e. not "real") cobbles.


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## stevesbike (Jun 3, 2002)

Marc said:


> That new miracle suspension system in the Sky Pinarello k8 bikes made all the difference, today. I know
> 
> Yet again Sky shows they need remedial racing tactics schooling, seems to me. Fancy rear suspension can't compensate for brains, evidently.


what are you talking about? They delivered Froome safely to the finish. They are happy to hand over the yellow jersey to Martin. It's too early to defend it all the way to Paris.


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## coldash (May 7, 2012)

Agree with the Pinot comments. His petulance made him look juvenile and cost him time.


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## radripperaj (Mar 7, 2015)

PJay said:


> Well played, sir. Well played.


Thanks. the most exciting stage for me to watch in the tour so far. I was cheering him on while watching on my phone. pretty sure people at my work think I am crazy now.


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## radripperaj (Mar 7, 2015)

deleted


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## radripperaj (Mar 7, 2015)

PJay said:


> Why were Nibali and Froome grabbing the reins in the final cobblestone section?
> 
> Martin had a goal, and played it well- could he have been beat? Maybe, maybe not. Is he a threat to the overall podium? Not really.
> 
> ...


I bet they thought if they put extra pressure on the group to hang on that maybe that would drop Quintana and Contador due to the commotion and extra stress caused by the increase of speeds on the last cobbles


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## nsfbr (May 23, 2014)

That was a beast finish by Martin! Did you see him almost go down within sight of the finish? His rear wheel slipped out from him as he crossed the patch between wheel ruts (always the worst when damp.) But he basically pulled his bike back under him.

What is really ironic is that I'd wager if he doesn't have his mechanical he doesn't approach the end of the stage with the fcuk it mentality and probably doesn't get the stage. 

But again, he is pure beast. Great stage today.


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## olr1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Thibeau Pinot couldn't use the offered bike because it was too big; it would be like a kid getting on his fathers bike. Martin was lucky that Trentin is smaller than him but not too small.

Froome is only concerned with time gaps to Quintana, Nibali and Contador. Tony Martin will go backwards the next time the race goes uphill, but his team will fight to keep him in yellow, so Froome has suddenly got two teams riding for him instead of one. Pressure off Sky, difficult stages done without incident.


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## paredown (Oct 18, 2006)

nsfbr said:


> That was a beast finish by Martin! Did you see him almost go down within sight of the finish? His rear wheel slipped out from him as he crossed the patch between wheel ruts (always the worst when damp.) But he basically pulled his bike back under him.
> 
> What is really ironic is that I'd wager if he doesn't have his mechanical he doesn't approach the end of the stage with the fcuk it mentality and probably doesn't get the stage.
> 
> But again, he is pure beast. Great stage today.


I sort of thought the opposite of that finish--I could almost see the thought balloon over his head "Don't overcook it on those last two corners and lose the damn thing"--he really took those corners cautiously before putting pedal to the metal coming up to the finish.


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## JaeP (Mar 12, 2002)

My internet provider is playing tricks with my account again so I couldn't see this stage. What happened to Ritchie Porte? Did he crash or is he being "rested"?


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

I believe he's being rested. He finished 17 min after Martin. Geraint Thomas has been doing most of the heavy lifting for Team Sky, thus far.


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## 5DII (Aug 5, 2013)

Marc said:


> Yup. Tony Martin rides the same distance on a teammate's bike and wins. Talk about delicious irony.


A huge blow to bike fitters everywhere.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Martin perseverance highlights Pinot's meltdown

Good article on it.


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## FujiSteve (Nov 12, 2014)

JaeP said:


> My internet provider is playing tricks with my account again so I couldn't see this stage. What happened to Ritchie Porte? Did he crash or is he being "rested"?



He put in a lot of work from the start of the first cobble section to just before the second where there was a crash and a split. He settled into the second group after that. 

I'm just glad we can finally lay that "Froome can't handle cobbles" meme to rest. He handled them equally as well as any other GC contender. Nibali was, of course, very good, but Tejay seemed totally unconcerned with the surface and little Nairo Quintana proved that you don't have to big built like Lars Boom to keep up with the rest.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

Interesting to see Cav using his old Venge.


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## gofast2wheeler (Oct 13, 2011)

Its funny how marketing spines new tech like on the Pina. Great idea and probably does improve the vibrations but as always the real difference is the rider and his legs bike comes second. Thinking about all the money spent on developing aero bikes but don't the riders ride in packs. Where is the aero advantage then? To me useless tech that goes out the window in real world conditions. Never say a one man bike race unless it is TT which is a different bike altogether. Give me a light stiff bike and I am good.


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## dnice (Jul 12, 2012)

5DII said:


> A huge blow to bike fitters everywhere.


i wonder if he regrets not bringing his multi-tool?


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh, I want to hear more about the Pinarello K8 ... sounds like a real game changer.



5DII said:


> A huge blow to bike fitters everywhere.


Brilliant :lol:


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## asgelle (Apr 21, 2003)

gofast2wheeler said:


> Thinking about all the money spent on developing aero bikes but don't the riders ride in packs. Where is the aero advantage then?


The same place it is when riding alone. Air doesn't go away when there are other riders around you (it would be really hard to breath) and neither does drag. You still have to pedal.


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

gofast2wheeler said:


> Its funny how marketing spines new tech like on the Pina. Great idea and probably does improve the vibrations but as always the real difference is the rider and his legs bike comes second. Thinking about all the money spent on developing aero bikes but don't the riders ride in packs. Where is the aero advantage then? To me useless tech that goes out the window in real world conditions. Never say a one man bike race unless it is TT which is a different bike altogether. Give me a light stiff bike and I am good.


Well, a lot of this innovation has a high hype/performance ratio. However, since it brings in dollars in the long run, it is good overall for all of us.

Also, many pro riders are in a range where "money is no object," plus consider Martin's margin of victory today - 3 seconds. I wold shave my legs for that.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

again what are you talking about? Sagan was riding with (behind actually) Contador for most of the stage and sprinted in the end. Contador finished same on time as Sagan. Mission accomplished.


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## 55x11 (Apr 24, 2006)

just because he won today on a smaller frame (Trentin is 5'10" and Martin is 6'1") doesn't mean everyone should ride on randomly sized frames with seats too low.

I never used bike fitter and I always thought and inch or or 2-5 cm or so are the margins of errors and can be easily corrected with seatpost/stem adjustments, but within reason, riding a proper sized frame is best. I don't care if Froome outclimbes Contador on 54cm frame next week. 

I doubt Tony Martin was thinking in the last 1K: thank god I am riding this much smaller frame bike, feels really great.


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## rideorglide (Dec 3, 2005)

radripperaj said:


> What would be nice to see is Tony Martin winning this stage or at least getting in the Yellow for one day. seems like he has been fighting so hard the past two days and keeps missing it by one or two seconds. I dont know how suited he is for cobbles or this stage, just some hopeful thinking.


You got your wish ... karmic thinking maybe.


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## natedg200202 (Sep 2, 2008)

Watched the replay last night. General observation: the big guns (niboli, froome and others) seem to be expending so much unnecessary energy on these early stages. I was shocked to see Froome especially, at one point, leading out a long line of riders at high speed. Why? What's the benefit of such high effort on s flat stage. Staying at the front is understandable but attacking seems ill advised.


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## ColaJacket (Apr 13, 2015)

55x11 said:


> just because he won today on a smaller frame (Trentin is 5'10" and Martin is 6'1") doesn't mean everyone should ride on randomly sized frames with seats too low.
> 
> I never used bike fitter and I always thought and inch or or 2-5 cm or so are the margins of errors and can be easily corrected with seatpost/stem adjustments, but within reason, riding a proper sized frame is best. I don't care if Froome outclimbes Contador on 54cm frame next week.
> 
> I doubt Tony Martin was thinking in the last 1K: thank god I am riding this much smaller frame bike, feels really great.



Just a couple of thoughts.

It's easier to ride a smaller frame bike than your normal bike.

The dirt from the cobbles made all the riders look like Paula Dean's son in brownface. 

GH


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## joeinchi (Sep 24, 2010)

ColaJacket said:


> The dirt from the cobbles made all the riders look like Paula Dean's son in brownface.


... or the Geico Caveman

Tejay van Garderen: Conquering cobbles about luck | NBC Sports


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## PJay (May 28, 2004)

natedg200202 said:


> Watched the replay last night. General observation: the big guns (niboli, froome and others) seem to be expending so much unnecessary energy on these early stages. I was shocked to see Froome especially, at one point, leading out a long line of riders at high speed. Why? What's the benefit of such high effort on s flat stage. Staying at the front is understandable but attacking seems ill advised.


Upthread, I asked the same thing - a good answer was that Contador and Quintana were a bit back, and both Froome and Nibali attempted to kick-start a break off the front, hoping to shake those two other GC contenders. It failed to coalesce.

I may go back and watch again to try to catch that entire chapter.


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## MMsRepBike (Apr 1, 2014)

ColaJacket said:


> Just a couple of thoughts.
> 
> It's easier to ride a smaller frame bike than your normal bike.
> 
> ...


Same size frame and the seat was actually 1cm higher. Brakes were reversed.


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