# 09 centaur/athena question



## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

hey guys

so i have 09 centaur ergos lying around new with cables... i was going to put em on my bike to displace the 05 chorus on them now, but a good pro buddy of mine hated the 09 stuff saying it didnt shift properly...

of course there is that thread here too....

if this is the case i might just sell em NIB... dont like the silent right shift paddle either... the 05 chorus shifts fine... i dont want a sh!t storm if this thing cannot be made to shift properly on 05 centaur gear...

then of course the next question... athena... will campy ever put out an athena chain and casette? wtf is up with chorus only?? i'm digging the pricing on athena, but not the cassette... costs more than the rear derailleur...

other question is re: the alu/carb levers on them... does this go for the finger shift paddles too or just the brake lever? cos i read here that ppl are breaking the plastic ones... which looking at them, i can believe it.

anyone know if athena cassettes will be put out?? changes/additions for 2010 in this regard?? c40??

thanks,

joe


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't know that we'll see 11 speed cassettes and chains lower than Chorus for a while, they're already steel gears, so other than going away from the carriers for the 6 largest cogs I don't see much for them to downgrade, but I could be wrong.

'09 Centaur is a lighter action than previous 10 speed shifters, and I prefer the Chorus 11 feel to the 09 Centaur I had but it worked fine and I didn't have any problem with it, if the shape is preferable to you, and it is for me, then they are still an upgrade over older models.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info...*

I've been using Campy shifters with the plastic finger lever for many years and never broke one. In most cases this is either a defective lever or the shifting forces became so high due to some other malfunction that the user kept pushing on the lever until he broke it. Absolutely nothing to worry about.

The Athena group only costs $7-800 from Ribble. Why whine about the the cassette and chain? There will probably never be a chain lower than Chorus, since the side plates have no holes, even in the Record model and that was the only difference between Chorus and Veloce. I paid $106 for a Chorus cassette from Ribble, just over a week ago. Seemed cheap to me.

All the whining about '09 Centaur not shifting properly is sort of lame too. I prefer the more distinct clicks from 11 speed, but I've still got '09 Centaur shifters on one bike. Mine work fine, as long as you get used to the light clicks. The cable pull is no different. I've also read that Campy might have made a running change to the 10 speed shifters to make the clicks more distinct, but I have no verification of that.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

C-40 said:


> I've been using Campy shifters with the plastic finger lever for many years and never broke one. In most cases this is either a defective lever or the shifting forces became so high due to some other malfunction that the user kept pushing on the lever until he broke it. Absolutely nothing to worry about.
> 
> The Athena group only costs $7-800 from Ribble. Why whine about the the cassette and chain? There will probably never be a chain lower than Chorus, since the side plates have no holes, even in the Record model and that was the only difference between Chorus and Veloce. I paid $106 for a Chorus cassette from Ribble, just over a week ago. Seemed cheap to me.
> 
> All the whining about '09 Centaur not shifting properly is sort of lame too. I prefer the more distinct clicks from 11 speed, but I've still got '09 Centaur shifters on one bike. Mine work fine, as long as you get used to the light clicks. The cable pull is no different. I've also read that Campy might have made a running change to the 10 speed shifters to make the clicks more distinct, but I have no verification of that.


So all the people (and it's a lot) on here that disagree w/ you are whining? Good to know. I'm a whiner. There new stuff sux..


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*depends..*



ClassicSteel71 said:


> So all the people (and it's a lot) on here that disagree w/ you are whining? Good to know. I'm a whiner. There new stuff sux..


Depends on what you're whining about. The light 10 speed clicks never bothered me. I quickly learned the 1-cog flick of the finger lever. The 2-cog shift takes a lot more travel. You've not very sharp is you get two instead of one. 

I've logged over 5,000 miles on two bikes equipped with 11 speed and had no problems at all. The shifting is great.


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## bigbill (Feb 15, 2005)

C-40 said:


> Depends on what you're whining about. The light 10 speed clicks never bothered me. I quickly learned the 1-cog flick of the finger lever. The 2-cog shift takes a lot more travel. You've not very sharp is you get two instead of one.
> 
> I've logged over 5,000 miles on two bikes equipped with 11 speed and had no problems at all. The shifting is great.


I absolutely love my 11 speed Chorus. I have adjusted it one time since I built it up earlier this year. 

I had extra resistance on the downshift paddle on a few occassions but each time was due to the shifter hood preventing the thumb lever from moving all the way back up. I guess a person could break a lever if they forced it against the mechanical stop created by the thumb lever still being depressed. I retaped my bars and resolved the issue with the hood rubbing on the thumb lever.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

thanks guys...

c40, its not the chain - its reasonable... the cassette tho... yeh chorus is all steel, so it was in 10sp, and campy still had veloce and centaur .... i find it suspect that campy introduced a cheaper gruppo with chorus wear items...

yeah gruppo is cheap - but i'm not getting one... just the derailleurs and shifters... and of course chain and cassette - i also have multiple wheelsets so thats why its an issue...

right now i'm using veloce chain/cassette on chorus shifters and its great...

if campy shows no sign of cheaper cassettes, just might move up to 11 chorus... but i will sure miss those $45 cassettes....

good to know that the 09 centaur works.... very confusing info out there.... I dont wanna cut the cables and try and find out it sux the big one, cos then i obviously cant sell it as NIB....

decisions...


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

oops, i should be more clear.... my friend said the 09 10 speed stuff don't shift properly... he also got a bike with 11 chorus, which he highly rates....


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*In that case...*



wankski said:


> oops, i should be more clear.... my friend said the 09 10 speed stuff don't shift properly... he also got a bike with 11 chorus, which he highly rates....


It seems like the more I read, the more I'm starting to feel like the only way I'm gonna "fix" my 09 Centaur's poor shifting w/ the older Centaur's other hardware (and yes, I already had the "wrong-spring" rear derailleur replaced w/ the "proper-spring") is to replace it with 11 speed....


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

I guess I'm not a whiner. I've been using the 10 speed Centaur with no problems, after I got the hang of the lighter shifting.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*Some have it, others don't*



ti-triodes said:


> I guess I'm not a whiner. I've been using the 10 speed Centaur with no problems, after I got the hang of the lighter shifting.


When I first installed my 09 shifters, it did have a slightly lighter feel to it. Not that nice positive "Campy Clunk" that used to feel _so right._ No big deal, certainly nothing to complain about.... 
...then, either gradually or all at once, or somewhere in between, it turned into "indexed friction shifting". It sucks. _*It really sucks.*_

So looks like you got a good pair of shifters. Some of us got a bad batch, I was one of them. If you paid $$$ for an upgrade/improvement and dealt with this hot mess, you'd probably be whining too.


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## ClassicSteel71 (Mar 5, 2009)

I only bought the Centaur 10 shifters and cables. I don't think the product really sucked. It just wasn't for me. From the new Ergo's to the shifting. So I went back.. I don't feel the need to "upgrade" from a product I love and is still readily available.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

thanks guys... i think that tears it for me... the money i can get back from selling the 09 centaur is about the difference from athena shifters and rear dérailleur to chorus... so i'll do that when i get my 2010 caad9....with hollowgram and 0G brakes... muhahah.

cheers


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

wankski said:


> thanks guys... i think that tears it for me... the money i can get back from selling the 09 centaur is about the difference from athena shifters and rear dérailleur to chorus... so i'll do that when i get my 2010 caad9....with hollowgram and 0G brakes... muhahah.
> 
> cheers


I like the diabolical laugh at the end.:biggrin5:


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## ti-triodes (Aug 14, 2006)

jpdigital said:


> When I first installed my 09 shifters, it did have a slightly lighter feel to it. Not that nice positive "Campy Clunk" that used to feel _so right._ No big deal, certainly nothing to complain about....
> ...then, either gradually or all at once, or somewhere in between, it turned into "indexed friction shifting". It sucks. _*It really sucks.*_
> 
> So looks like you got a good pair of shifters. Some of us got a bad batch, I was one of them. If you paid $$$ for an upgrade/improvement and dealt with this hot mess, you'd probably be whining too.




Isn't there a 3 year warranty on the shifters?


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## Bicycle019 (Sep 20, 2002)

C-40 said:


> All the whining about '09 Centaur not shifting properly is sort of lame too. I prefer the more distinct clicks from 11 speed, but I've still got '09 Centaur shifters on one bike. Mine work fine, as long as you get used to the light clicks. The cable pull is no different. I've also read that Campy might have made a running change to the 10 speed shifters to make the clicks more distinct, but I have no verification of that.


Whining? Really? I think that a lot of people, myself included, have had issues with the 09 Centaur levers. I have no problems with the lighter action, I've ridden plenty of Shimano bikes with light action with no problems. The problem is with the cable friction that's in the body. It creates inconsistent shifting when releasing the cable. I've got thousands of miles on the group now and it's great about 95% of the time, and that's after hours of work to ensure there is NO extra friction anywhere in the cable run. It's when it doesn't shift right that it sucks. Not much fun when you're on the rivet trying to bridge a gap and you go for a downshift and only hear lots of clacking from the rear derail. The last thing you want to worry about is your equipment when you're giving everything you've got in a race.

The ergo of the new levers is great, a big improvement. I'm willing to deal with the issues to keep riding the new lever shape. But don't brush the issue off as whining, as it's a legit complaint as evidenced by the number of people having similar issues. Maybe Campy didn't get everything nailed just right out of the gate with the new levers? Such things are not impossible. Almost every company stumbles once in a while with new product introductions.

It's depressing that I've built at least a dozen Shimano road bikes in the past couple of months for co-workers with groups ranging from Tiagra to Ultegra and EVERY ONE of them shifted better right out of the box than my Centaur group.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

Bicycle019 said:


> Whining? Really? I think that a lot of people, myself included, have had issues with the 09 Centaur levers. I have no problems with the lighter action, I've ridden plenty of Shimano bikes with light action with no problems. The problem is with the cable friction that's in the body. It creates inconsistent shifting when releasing the cable. I've got thousands of miles on the group now and it's great about 95% of the time, and that's after hours of work to ensure there is NO extra friction anywhere in the cable run. It's when it doesn't shift right that it sucks. Not much fun when you're on the rivet trying to bridge a gap and you go for a downshift and only hear lots of clacking from the rear derail. The last thing you want to worry about is your equipment when you're giving everything you've got in a race.
> 
> The ergo of the new levers is great, a big improvement. I'm willing to deal with the issues to keep riding the new lever shape. But don't brush the issue off as whining, as it's a legit complaint as evidenced by the number of people having similar issues. Maybe Campy didn't get everything nailed just right out of the gate with the new levers? Such things are not impossible. Almost every company stumbles once in a while with new product introductions.
> 
> It's depressing that I've built at least a dozen Shimano road bikes in the past couple of months for co-workers with groups ranging from Tiagra to Ultegra and EVERY ONE of them shifted better right out of the box than my Centaur group.


*AMEN.*


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## DrSmile (Jul 22, 2006)

My 09 Centaur Ergos shift 100% perfect. No inconsistent shifting, no noise, no issues, no drama after over 1000 miles. It shifted this way out of the box from the first install. In fact the only reason I'm not riding my Centaur bike right now is because it broke the only part that was NOT Centaur... an 08 Record FD. 

I'm just adding another data point and I don't mean to imply that my experience is more important than anyone else.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*whiner...*

There is no way that you can distiguish between cable housing friction and friction within the shifter. If a shifter problem is suspected, the 2009 model is very easy to diassemble, lubricate and reassemble. Use the least restrictive cable routing, with the right side cable routed behind the bars. Campy ultra low friction cable housings are a must. I put a little grease on the ceramic cable guide inder the brake hood. Don't shorten the cable loop near the RD.

There are other possible problems like a RD spring with inadequate tension. Apparently some '07-'08 Centaur or Veloce RDs have weak springs that work OK with escape shifters, but not the new ultrashift. Older RDs may also have a weak spring, just from lots of use. A new spring may fix the problem. Others have had good luck using an 11 speed RD with the ultrashift 10 levers. It does over travel a bit, but the amount is extremely small.

The only time I've had this problem was when I was forced to try offbrand housings, when I was shipped the wrong cable set. Jagwire housing did not work well for the RD.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=154068&highlight=inside+2009+ergopower


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## Bicycle019 (Sep 20, 2002)

Not trying to start an e-argument here, but your comments on this board pull a lot of weight and I don't agree that this is a non issue. At this point my shifting is very good just about all of the time, but it's not perfect every time which is where my issue is.



C-40 said:


> There is no way that you can distiguish between cable housing friction and friction within the shifter.


Actually this is easy. Remove cable from shifter, pull end of housing out of shifter and leave all housing attached to bike. Run cable through now exposed housing end starting at front all the way to the back. Cable moves as easy through the housing (Genuine Campy Housing by the way) as throwing a hot dog down a hallway when sliding it back and forth. Now, insert cable up into shifter and make the very tight bend to come out the back, pull back and forth. The difference is obvious. Nothing aft of the shifter is causing the cable to bind in the slightest.



C-40 said:


> If a shifter problem is suspected, the 2009 model is very easy to diassemble, lubricate and reassemble.


Agreed. Done that. Issue has nothing to do with the ratcheting mechanism in the shifter, that works great.



C-40 said:


> Use the least restrictive cable routing, with the right side cable routed behind the bars. Campy ultra low friction cable housings are a must. I put a little grease on the ceramic cable guide inder the brake hood.


That's the way I routed the housings from the outset, as I prefer the feel of the housing running along the back of the bars. I have also lubed the cable guide under the brake hood, as that's area of the shifter is where the cable friction is coming from. To me it seems that the radius of the bend the cable takes in the body is just a bit too tight and is the source of the friction, along with the tight seal that the o-ring has as the cable leaves the shifter body to enter the first section of Genuine Campy housing that I'm using.



C-40 said:


> Don't shorten the cable loop near the RD.


No worries here, the housing is long enough. I used the supplied Genuine Campy 4mm housing here originally and it felt fine, but as I mentioned in an earlier thread this section has been changed to a 5mm piece by Peter Chisholm at Vecchio's as he feels it has less friction than the new 4mm housing that Campy is spec'ing. Either way, no issues here.



C-40 said:


> There are other possible problems like a RD spring with inadequate tension. Apparently some '07-'08 Centaur or Veloce RDs have weak springs that work OK with escape shifters, but not the new ultrashift. Older RDs may also have a weak spring, just from lots of use. A new spring may fix the problem. Others have had good luck using an 11 speed RD with the ultrashift 10 levers. It does over travel a bit, but the amount is extremely small.


I started with a brand new 09 Centaur rear mech, with the correct "half circle" spring in it according to the info provided in the other Centaur thread on here. http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=161794 



C-40 said:


> The only time I've had this problem was when I was forced to try offbrand housings, when I was shipped the wrong cable set. Jagwire housing did not work well for the RD.


The Campy supplied housing is nice, but I'm not sure it's some panacea or super superior product as Jagwire does make good housing/cables and manufactures for many OEM's, GORE being one. Regardless, I've got the Campy on this bike currently but I've also got a 25' roll of Shimano SP-41 sitting in my shop that I might try. Good prep is key with any brand of housing, using good sharp cutters, grinding the end of the housings flat post cutting, making sure the ends of the lining are open, and new quality ferrules. All done on my build.

And a bit about me as I don't post much on the this site, but do lurk occasionally. I have been working in the bike industry for over fifteen years, managed two different BRAIN Top 100 IBD's, built over 1000 bicycles in my time, including 100+ frame up builds. I still work in the industry but not at the retail level anymore. I've got at least five pro-mechanics here on the front range that can vouch for my skills as a wrench. I also restore cars as a hobby, can rewire the fuel injection in a modern car from scratch, rebuild a manual transmission, and regularly tear down and work on may more intricate systems than a cable actuated bicycle shifting system. 

I have not paid for bike service since the early 90's when I started mountain biking, but I was having such a tough time w/the shifting on this bike I brought it to Peter @ Vecchios who worked on it for me as a favor as we have some common friends, and he's the Campy expert. I of course paid him for his time.

I'm in Denver and it seems that you're also in the area. If you would like to take a stab at making my Centaur equipped bike shift any better shoot me an IM and we'll set something up. I've got a fully equipped work shop in my garage at your disposal. I'll supply the beer.


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

hrmm, what is it different about the 11 sp 2009 system that seemingly doesnt have this problem?

love to know since its considerable more expensive..

thanks guys


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## sgt (Apr 17, 2007)

*2000 miles, no problems*

since March on 09 Centaur carbon gruppo. Definite upgrade from the Ultegra / 105 that was on the bike. Just bought another set for my new build... not ready to go 11s, but nice to know I can retrofit the levers when (and if) I'm ready


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## wankski (Jul 24, 2005)

hrmm, think i'm selling mine...

will ship to US, UK and west europe.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...45589&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_1182


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

I tried the cable friction test you suggested, but don't get the same result. The test is flawed for one thing. The cable has to be under a significant tension when it's operating the RD and I'm not feeling the great increase in resistance the you mention, with the cable under tension. Pulling on the cable with no load on it it meaningless. Likewise, the friction from the O-ring seal is trivial, but if it's supect, use an Xacto knife to trim it out.

If you want to conduct a test that's meaningfull, you'd have to measure the force required to actuate the RD and apply a weight in that range for the test. 

Also look at where the cable exits, just ahead of the RD cable clamp bolt. The bend in that area gets pretty sharp with the RD in the larger cogs.

Even if the cable guide under the brake hood is the cause of most of the friction, what can you do about it, other than grease the area? That's what I do. I suppose a design with a roller would have been nice, but there's just not room for a large enough roller.

I just converted my very early model Centaur shifter to 11 speed and it's shifting great. I used Shimano 4mm housing with a Campy cable. I'm still using my old Chorus 10 speed RD with the modified cable clamp bolt to increase the actuation ratio, rather that using an 11 speed RD.

The only other thing I did differently than I usually do is applied a little grease to the cable when I installed it, rather than some light oil. I found some grease at WalMart that seems like good stuff. Mystik No.2 is a translucent all-purpose grease that only costs $3 for a big grease gun tube. I'm giving it a shot in my BB bearings too.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*Athena RD shifting much better.*



jpdigital said:


> It seems like the more I read, the more I'm starting to feel like the only way I'm gonna "fix" my 09 Centaur's poor shifting w/ the older Centaur's other hardware (and yes, I already had the "wrong-spring" rear derailleur replaced w/ the "proper-spring") is to replace it with 11 speed....


...so I decided to order an Athena rear derailleur to see if that would improve the shifting. There's an increadible improvement of shifting 09 Centaur Ultra Shift levers when mated to an Athena RD as opposed to using an older Centaur RD (and that's factoring in using a Centaur RD w/ the proper spring).


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*thoughts...*

I've found that a RD does not have to be all that old to have developed a fair amount of slop at the main pivot where the RD bolts to the frame. It's not very hard to make your own shim washer, place it behind the C-clip that holds the torsion spring in place and reduce the axial clearance down into the .002-.004 inch range. I was able to use a .031 inch washer on mine. To get an idea of the axial play, you can insert feel gages between the C-clip and the torsion spring retainer, with the RD loose or off the bike.

When you swap to an Athena RD, you've got a little larger actuation ratio that seems to actually improve shifting. I tried one of my Record 11 RDs on my 10 speed bike a long time ago and found that it worked fine. The oposite setup - a 10 speed RD with 11 speed shifters needs a little help to increase the actuaion ratio. That's the setup I've got now on my winter bike. I changed it to 11 speed by converting the Centaur shifters, adding the chain and cassette.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

*that's my objective as well*



C-40 said:


> I changed it to 11 speed by converting the Centaur shifters, adding the chain and cassette.


One of the reasons in getting an Athena RD was to escape the nightmarish shifting I couldn't [completely] resolve. I must say I'm pleased with the intital results of the swap.

...but also my plan is to convert to 11 speed. When it's time to replace the chain, I'll replace it w/ an 11 speed chain, currently I can get an 11spd chain for the same $$$ as a 10spd. Afterward, I'll get a Chorus 11spd cassette & have the Centaur UltraShift shifters converted to 11spd.

I'm looking forward to seeing how good a(n almost) complete 11 speed drivetrain shifts!!


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*the shifter conversion...*

It was easy to convert the shifters to 11 speed, but only briefly. Campy quit selling the two parts needed to make the swap as individual parts. The only way to get them now is to buy a major assembly that costs $100. It includes everything but the brake lever, band clamp and brake hood. I bougth one to repair a wreck damaged right shifter (broke the ergo body). I took the parts from my damaged shifter to convert the Centaur shifter to 11 speed.


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## jpdigital (Dec 1, 2006)

The parts for the conversion are still $160 (currently) less than a new set of Athena shifters, (and if I did have to go the carbon-lever route, I'd prefer the look of the Chorus shifters, over $200 more than the conversion parts).

That being said, I _love_ the look of the alloy shifters, especially w/ the polished brakes & Athena RD. And the alloy shifters are already a rarity (go figure). For my situation I'd be fine paying the $$$ for the conversion parts, I just wouldn't have much [current] use for the extra stuff that what I'd need would come along with.

Of course, if Campy decides to reintroduce a polished alloy shifter between now and when I switch over that may change things...


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*pricing..*

A new pair of Athena shifters that includes a new cable set is only $185 at Ribble. It would be cheaper to buy Athena levers and sell your old ones on E-bay. Chorus 11 shifters are about $240.


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## Bostic (Nov 17, 2008)

Has anyone spent some time with Athena yet to offer real world feedback? How distinctive is the click for the downshifting to lower gears on the right lever? Is it comparable to Chorus and above? 

I gave the 2009 Veloce and alloy Centaur levers a year and a lot of miles but am abandoning them. One bike I went back to 2008 Chorus levers (had 09 Veloce) and the other one, an older steel frame, is getting Dura-Ace downtube shifters with a #3 jtek shiftmate. The soft click was tolerable but inaccurate shifting is not pleasant, especially on a double century ride. The other thing that drove me crazy on both levers was the right thumb button getting stuck in the down position after a dump of several cogs from time to time. Having to manually yank it back up with the top of my thumb was a drag. At this point I don't want to buy that running change of innards assembly (saw it on lickbike) and will sell the levers for whatever I can get. 

C-40, you mention you have combined 11 speed cassettes to make an 11-27. Do the cut-outs on the cogs line up in the same location? That is, comparing the 15 single & 16 17 18 on an 11-25 with the 16 single & 17 19 21 of a 12-27? Does the 16 of the 3 cluster and the 17 of the other 3 cluster have the cutout in the same location? That is what 'dirties' the shifting between 15 & 17 when you try to build a 10 speed 12-29 from 2 cassettes.


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## C-40 (Feb 4, 2004)

*info..*

All 11 speed shifters should have the same internal mechanism and the same feel to the shifts. You can verify that by reading the spare parts PDF. The SR shifters have one part made of Ti, but that does not affect the shifting feel. Even the 10 speed models have been revised to make the clicks more distinct.

As for the thumb button sticking, that's usually becasue you need to pull the brake hood down. If it rides up a little, it will rub on the lever arm and not allow it to return with only the spring pressure. I've never had that problem with my Centaur levers or three pairs of Record levers.

As for the 11-27, I tried it and thought it shifted reasonably well, but perhaps not perfect. It's certainly tolerable. I once tried making a 12-29 (10 speed) with the 12-25 from a 12-25 and the 17-29 from a 13-29 and that did not work well at all. It's disappointing that Campy is offering a 12-29 but still skipping the 11-27. They want that 16T at all costs.


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## jlwdm (Nov 7, 2009)

I have seen a few threads about the light shifting of the 09 Centaur levers; not sure if on RBR, for sure recently on VSalon.

It seems the inards, disks, were changed so the newer levers are not as light shifting. You can buy the parts to convert the older levers to be like the newer levers.

Jeff


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