# Japanese Bianchi's questions



## MasterOMayhem

I had a couple questions regarding what I think is a Japanese Bianchi around 83-84 ish...

Question 1. Did they ever make japanese in Celeste?
Question 2. Did they ever sell the Japanese with Campy SR?
Question 3. 022 pretty much denotes its a Japanese made one right?
Question 4. I found the 80's bianchi catalogs... were there ones wih the Japanese versions?


Here is my conundrum, i have been looking for that "right" Vintage project at the right price. I can buy an 1983-84 professional with Super record on it, araya red rims with campy super record hubs... Its got a small bit of rust but other that that it looks like it is great shape. the only thing i know is definitely not original is the saddle. It doesnt say Made in japan or italy on it but it is celeste, has super record on it and is 022 Isiwata. I guess the only way i will know is when i check the BB if its italian on English. I am not sure if Bianchi has really good serial number database that i could see its geneology there.

thanks in advance


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## Dave Hickey

Here is my limted knowledge of Bianchi

I know the Premio was Japanese made.... I have one..

If it's 022 Ishiwata(sp) tubing it's most certainly a Japanese model.. 

The higher end Italian models of that era had Reparto Corse(sp?) decals signifying they were made in the Italian race shop..

That's all I got


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## mj3200

Interesting thread. Like many I've been following the arguments about the Italians going to the Far East to source their frames and I've been meaning to post on the topic along the lines that somewhere I have two Colnago catalogues from 85ish and in one almost all the models are made of Japanese tubesets and made - I thought - in Japan. In the other - either the year before or after - the same bikes are of Columbus and made in Italy. Trouble is I can't find the catalogues and didn't want to post before my facts were straight, but this confirms it. I really must look seriously for them.

From memory I think that even in the Japanese year the top of the range were Italian and Columbus tubed.

I always wondered why the frames were brought in from Japan: Lack of skilled labour; lack of tube sets; moving factory; industrial relations?

So there the bikes have been made in the Far East before so nothing is new....

Sorry none of this helps with the Bianchi other than to support the previous assertion that the 022 ones were likely not Italian and that the top model would have been.


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## slamy

First, NO colnago's were made in japan and all 1980's colnago's were made with columbus tubing. Don't confuse colnago with bianchi. Upper tier bianchi's are very nice bikes made in italy, but they had many super-store type bianchi's out there for the masses. You will not find a colnago catalog with jap tubing or anything from japan on it. Other then maybe shimano componants.


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## Dave Hickey

slamy said:


> First, NO colnago's were made in japan and all 1980's colnago's were made with columbus tubing. Don't confuse colnago with bianchi. Upper tier bianchi's are very nice bikes made in italy, but they had many super-store type bianchi's out there for the masses. You will not find a colnago catalog with jap tubing or anything from japan on it. Other then maybe shimano componants.



Don't sell the Japanese Bianchi's short..

They came with very high quality tubesets, outstanding craftsmanship and paint jobs that far superior to the lousy paint coming out of Italy in those days....

granted I'm biased but a 3Rensho or other high end Japanese brand rivaled anything Colnago made in those days


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## MasterOMayhem

ok i pulled the trigger on this bianchi. I havent pulled the crank to see if it is italian or english which will tell me where it was made. the nice thing is that its super record with a little brasso and time this thing cleaned up super nice. it looks as if the chain had never been on the big ring... frame is 9.9/10 groupset is 9.5/10 wheels are araya laced to sr hubs.... need new tubulars but the ones on it look as it has never been ridden. cinelli bars and stem, sr pedals and seatpost. crap serfas saddle... need to find one that matches period. the only major is sue is one of the brake holders little V thing is broken off... and the odd rusty nut... other than that i give it 9.5;/10 for a 83/84 bike. all this for 225.00


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## dmar836

Too late I guess. I had one in Celeste. It wasn't a top line model but was Japanese-made and in celeste. Recently adjusted it up and gave it to a neighbor who wanted to start riding.


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## Dave Hickey

MasterOMayhem said:


> ok i pulled the trigger on this bianchi. I havent pulled the crank to see if it is italian or english which will tell me where it was made. the nice thing is that its super record with a little brasso and time this thing cleaned up super nice. it looks as if the chain had never been on the big ring... frame is 9.9/10 groupset is 9.5/10 wheels are araya laced to sr hubs.... need new tubulars but the ones on it look as it has never been ridden. cinelli bars and stem, sr pedals and seatpost. crap serfas saddle... need to find one that matches period. the only major is sue is one of the brake holders little V thing is broken off... and the odd rusty nut... other than that i give it 9.5;/10 for a 83/84 bike. all this for 225.00


nice...any pictures?


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## jumpjibe

In that approximate time period, the following 3 mid-level model Bianchi road bikes were Ishiwata 022/024: 

Limited; Brava; and the Sport SX (descending order). Limited came stock with Ultegra; Brava with Suntour GPX; and Sport SX with Shimano Sport LX.

Each of these 3 models was available in either of 2 colors, including celeste.

Above these models were the Giro, Super Leggera and Modiale (in ascending order), all built with Columbus SLX/SPX with with various levels of Campy (Athena to Chorus to Croce d'Aune).

The only Italian-built mid-level model of which I am aware was the Campione d'Italia, which I own and have kept original. I liked it a bit better than the Sport SX which I also test rode at the time.

Below the mid-level models were 3 models build with Tange.


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## slamy

Dave Hickey said:


> Don't sell the Japanese Bianchi's short..
> 
> They came with very high quality tubesets, outstanding craftsmanship and paint jobs that far superior to the lousy paint coming out of Italy in those days....
> 
> granted I'm biased but a 3Rensho or other high end Japanese brand rivaled anything Colnago made in those days



I'm not disputing that a san rensho is a great bike. I've owned and raced one. But to say that there was a whole lot of 80's Colnago bikes coming from Japan with jap tubing is wrong. However, a Colnago Master, super, or mexico is a much better built bike then a factory made bianchi coming from Japan. You have me with the paint, italian paint is bad. My point is that there were not colnagos coming from japan. The lower level colnagos if not made in the colnago factory were farmed out to local builders near the factory, but still made in italy.


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## Dave Hickey

No disagreement about Japanese made Colnagos...I've never heard of them either....

I think in the 90's they had an Asian sourced entry level steel frame though...Was it the Crystal? I can't remember the name right now... At least I heard it was Asian made....


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## MasterOMayhem

jumpjibe said:


> In that approximate time period, the following 3 mid-level model Bianchi road bikes were Ishiwata 022/024:
> 
> Limited; Brava; and the Sport SX (descending order). Limited came stock with Ultegra; Brava with Suntour GPX; and Sport SX with Shimano Sport LX.
> 
> Each of these 3 models was available in either of 2 colors, including celeste.
> 
> Above these models were the Giro, Super Leggera and Modiale (in ascending order), all built with Columbus SLX/SPX with with various levels of Campy (Athena to Chorus to Croce d'Aune).
> 
> The only Italian-built mid-level model of which I am aware was the Campione d'Italia, which I own and have kept original. I liked it a bit better than the Sport SX which I also test rode at the time.
> 
> Below the mid-level models were 3 models build with Tange.


I will post pictures today. The frame in question is a "professional:" If i look at the 83 catalog, the pro had a mix of components. this one in question has campy super record, all components, araya red tubulars with SR hubs( small flange) cinelli bar and stem 

until i take it totally apart, i have little to go on... maybe today i will take it to the lbs and get the cranks off and verify the BB to be italian or English.... 

BTW i think i need a few things to make it period correct The Bottle cage... the saddle and tubular tires. the tires on it a wolber classic 290s and they look barely used. but the sidewalls look to be coming off... so i will dig up some wolbers... athe saddle looks liek a selle ialia aero might be the one... although i am still researching... 

love to hear the opinions and advise


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## mj3200

There's a picture of a Japanese tubed Colnago - they do exist. Whether they were made there or not I'm not sure.

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2362/1890437504_383a0e6d4a_b.jpg

And this quote from elsewhere:

"In the 1970s and 1980s, the "Super" was one of Colnago's models, a high-end racing frame. In the mid 1980s, Colnago introduced various crimped-tube models as their top of the range frames, including "Master" and later "Master-Light". The manufacturer varied the base material of "Master" frames thougout its several iterations ranging from Columbus tubing DT15V to "Ultimate Superlight" from Tange Japan."

I must look for that catalogue when I get back home.


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## slamy

first off, how do you know this is a japanese tubed colnago from this picture? Second this frame is from the the 1990's and not the 1980's. The 1980 colnago masters were built with columbus tubing that was specially manufactured for them (as indicated on the decals of the bike) The master in it's many forms has been in production even thru today: almost 25 years. It is possible that the later variants have a japanese made tubing but not the one's from the 1980's. As for the bikes built in Japan, that never happened. Up until a couple years ago every colnago was made in italy until they produced one cheaper carbon model made somewhere in asia.


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## mj3200

I don't think I will perpetuate this much longer as it is clearly a topic of much importance to you "slamy" but the original poster of the photograph was asking for information on Japanese tubed Colnagos after buying this one. It does have a Japanese tubing sticker in the usual place so.....

If you read my first post I say I THINK that the frames were made in Japan. Not that there was no possibility of there being made elsewhere. No big deal - just a converstaion point.

Anyway as I have said I will leave it there and scan the documents when and if I can find them when I get home in a few months time.


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## MasterOMayhem

here are some pictures I did some cleaning ... cleaned up nice I know , I know the saddle that was on it. needs to go...


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## MasterOMayhem

some more pictures....


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## reparto corse

********Awesome*******


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## mj3200

Now that is a beautiful bike and I think that the 022 adds to it in myopinion - so unusual.


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## Dave Hickey

mj3200 said:


> Now that is a beautiful bike and I think that the 022 adds to it in myopinion - so unusual.



Absolutely...what a beautiful bike.. and if it's Japanese made, it only adds to the mystique


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## Richard

Suntour dropouts have me convinced it's Japanese. Looks to be from that time period when certain Bianchi frames were made in Japan, but finished and outfitted in Italy.

And, believe me, that's a good thing.

Very nice bike.


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## Thommy

In spite of where this was made, it's a really nice looking frame. Ride the hell out of it!


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## CurbDestroyer

So what's stamped on the BB cups?


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## MasterOMayhem

CurbDestroyer said:


> So what's stamped on the BB cups?


Serial Number? the bottom bracket is a BSC so its a japan made frame i think it was a japanese made frame assembled in Italy....


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## barrie0211

*1985 bianchi piaggio red with crome forks*

heres what i think .the 1985 was the last year that bianchi made in house tubes then in 1986 all tubes are from jap, re colubus tubes.the 1985 on the down tube the stiker says cromo-magny.1986 the stiker says columbus tubes.now go and ride like the wind.i,ll be on a 1985 bianchi,:yesnod: avianto baby.


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## blackbob

*japanese bianchi*



MasterOMayhem said:


> here are some pictures I did some cleaning ... cleaned up nice I know , I know the saddle that was on it. needs to go...


this is almost my bike! it's identical, save the handlebar stops. I have had this bicycle for 25 years now and treat it with much love and respect. it is beautifully made and the ishiwata 002 tubing was/is world famous, which the bianchi company knew well and used it not as a cheaper alternative at all but rather than, and in preference to columbus steel. 

this was told to me by people who knew a little about the history of bianchi/japan and certainly ishiwata was one of the very best steels around. try riding one sometime... it's a joy to 'feel' the response from the bike. even reynolds 531 and columbus just don't come close to the beautiful feel and response of this superb steel. why did they fold as a company? a mystery ...


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## blackbob

the japanese bianchis are special, no doubt about it. the italian bianchi I have just isn't the same. I still have it and it really does have a beautiful response to the road, body etc. I still cannot understand why the ishiwata company folded? the steel that they drew was pretty special and highly sought after by builders around the world (including bianchi). that's how big its reputation was amongst builders in the mid seventies to late 80s. then what happened? so odd for a company with such a world-beating steel ...


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## tashi

lovely bicycle, and if you want more info user "bianchigirl" over on BF really knows her way around the old Bianchi's.


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## brewster

I had a late 80's Fuji with Ishiwata tubing. I always viewed it as second class, only because it wasn't Columbus. However, it was a great riding bike and in reality, didn't give up anything to the Italian competitors.


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## James Plum

*Japanese Bianchi!*

I have a 1980 or 81 Bianchi professional with Ishiwata tubes. The Columbus frame was beyond my budget. A Columbus frame was around $270 more at the time. This bike has always rolled better than any of my friend’s bikes. I too mistakenly thought the Japanese frame to be inferior. I realize now I was wrong!


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## armstrong

In my observation, (at least some) Japanese Bianchis seem to sit on places like CL and Kijiji for ever and ever. Like, for the same bike in Columbus/Italian, the bike would probably move fast at over 150% the price. I see lots of really well-kept Japanese Bianchis that just don't move at very "reasonable for Italian" prices. Perhaps it's just all the lower-end Tange Bianchis that don't move. But perhaps it's actually "all" Japanese Bianchis that don't move?

Not to offend, but is the perception Japanese Bianchi = Fool's Gold (?)


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