# Strava etiquette



## respro100 (Jul 15, 2014)

So I've got a Garmin. I'm trying to climb up the Srava rankings on segments. One that I try for is a 2 mile climb. It starts after about 12 miles in a group ride with some climbs before the segment. I'm slowly improving. But I find a video of guys pulling another guy to the start of the climb. He flys by at the start of the climb. Another thought. If I'm really determined I can just drive to the climb and start on fresh legs. I really don't think either method is wrong. Just wanted to know what the general consensus is. Forgive me if there's already a 25 page thread on this


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

The truth is, there really are no rules for Strava... do whatever you think is right/fair and if someone is doing something that you don't think is right/fair, who cares. Strava isn't paying your bills and or feeding your kids. Use it as a tool to have fun and enjoy cycling, if you'e getting worked up about it, you're missing the point.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

TricrossRich said:


> The truth is, there really are no rules for Strava... do whatever you think is right/fair and if someone is doing something that you don't think is right/fair, who cares. Strava isn't paying your bills and or feeding your kids. Use it as *a tool to have fun and enjoy cycling*, if you'e getting worked up about it, you're missing the point.


This! But the part in bold is key!


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## Oldbikah (Apr 16, 2015)

You are improving. That's what really counts. Strava allows you to keep tabs on that. Don't worry so much about how or what others are doing.


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## pittcanna (Oct 2, 2014)

Just make sure if you do try for it on a group ride, make sure you communicate with your group your intent to try a segment, so you dont jump off the front and look like a jerk.

Who knows other might want to go along for the ride.


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## AlanE (Jan 22, 2002)

pittcanna said:


> Just make sure if you do try for it on a group ride, make sure you communicate with your group your intent to try a segment, so you dont jump off the front and look like a jerk.
> 
> Who knows other might want to go along for the ride.


If you want to look like a jerk on a group ride, then definitely call out "Strava Segment !!" and then jump off the front. It's better to call out "Strava Segment !!" and DON'T jump, but sit back and see who else takes the bait.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

Oldbikah said:


> You are improving. That's what really counts. Strava allows you to keep tabs on that. Don't worry so much about how or what others are doing.


This.

There are several Strava segments locally....notably one which is a 6-8% hill for a mile. The KOM _averages _30MPH, and that is an average...which means someone probably left their bike computer on while it was on the roof rack.

Doesn't bother me one bit, I just try to improve my own times. Only person I need to be better than is myself.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

respro100 said:


> So I've got a Garmin. I'm trying to climb up the Srava rankings on segments. One that I try for is a 2 mile climb. It starts after about 12 miles in a group ride with some climbs before the segment. I'm slowly improving. But I find a video of guys pulling another guy to the start of the climb. He flys by at the start of the climb.


Stop caring so much about what others do on Strava. You'll be much better for it.



> Another thought. If I'm really determined I can just drive to the climb and start on fresh legs. I really don't think either method is wrong. Just wanted to know what the general consensus is. Forgive me if there's already a 25 page thread on this


That's "really determined"? You're SO determined to win a segment that you'd drive there so you can have fresh legs. Would it make you feel warm and fuzzy to win KOM that way? 

Just assume everyone on Strava is cheating (because they probably are). Compare yourself to yourself (and maybe others you personally know). 



pittcanna said:


> Just make sure if you do try for it on a group ride, make sure you communicate with your group your intent to try a segment, so you dont jump off the front and look like a jerk.


Oh my. :mad2: Do that on a group ride and you'll look like a _______.
(There's about a dozen not so nice adjectives to fill in the blank)


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

Marc said:


> This.
> 
> There are several Strava segments locally....notably one which is a 6-8% hill for a mile. The KOM _averages _30MPH, and that is an average...which means someone probably left their bike computer on while it was on the roof rack.


While I am more focused on using Strava to see how I am improving (as suggested), that's a nuance that really flips me out.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Wetworks said:


> ...that's a nuance that really flips me out.


Simply "Flag" that ride. Done deal.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Group rides and leadouts are legit. 

Motorpacing is not. 

That's about the only rule.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

arai_speed said:


> Simply "Flag" that ride. Done deal.


Exactly. I flag stuff all the time. Even stuff I have never ridden nor will ever ride. I was looking at a couple of climbs and Tommy D. had the KOMs (this was a few days after he got busted AGAIN) so I flagged a few of his rides for "Chemical Assistance". They were apparently overturned, though, because while you can't use a car, you can pump yourself as full of illegal drugs as you can stand and then go after them. Stupid dopers. 

Anyway, strava is serious business.


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

arai_speed said:


> Simply "Flag" that ride. Done deal.


Was having a bit of fun, read the General Discussion forum for more details.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

"Strava" and "Etiquette" are two words that do not belong in the same sentence, except the sentence that reads "there is no etiquette when it comes to Strava segments".

To wit, there is a pretty significant local climb that is used by a lot of people for training, commuting, etc... It's always been a very hotly contested segment.

The top three times on that climb right now are all recorded by people who rented a Strommer electric bike at the bike shop at the bottom of the hill, and proceeded to motor up it, then came back down and returned the bike and bragged about it in the shop.

As has been said ad nauseum, you are going to drive yourself (and your group mates) nuts if you expend any energy trying to KOM segments on Strava. Just use it as a tool to keep track of your own times, and maybe some friendly comparisons with your riding buddies.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

Strava is a fine tool to see, generally, where you stack up with other riders that use it. It is a better tool to see where you stack up against yourself on previous rides. One problem with it is that it bases everything on time/speed. Your PR on any given segment is generally set with the aid of a group, or tail wind. It is not always indicative of your best effort.

Strava, it is what it is. If you really want to propel yourself up the leader board, you can a.) pull a Nibali and grab the mirror of a passing car or b.) just forget to turn your Garmin off and drive the route with your bike & Garmin in the back of your car.


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## dougclaysmith (Oct 17, 2009)

respro100 said:


> So I've got a Garmin. I'm trying to climb up the Srava rankings on segments. One that I try for is a 2 mile climb. It starts after about 12 miles in a group ride with some climbs before the segment. I'm slowly improving. But I find a video of guys pulling another guy to the start of the climb. He flys by at the start of the climb. Another thought. If I'm really determined I can just drive to the climb and start on fresh legs. I really don't think either method is wrong. Just wanted to know what the general consensus is. Forgive me if there's already a 25 page thread on this


Its strava, it's all sh!ts and giggles, have fun, whatever. 

Me and a buddy went back and forth on a short little climb for the KOM. We'd break each others KOM, then sh!t talk about it. But it got to the point that I'd hit that segment hard only if I had a tail wind. 

Don't take the whole strava thing to serious.


Oh, And please don't, sprint off the front of a group ride and say "strava segment", you'll look like a massive tool. If want to sprint off the front just do it.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Migen21 said:


> "Strava" and "Etiquette" are two words that do not belong in the same sentence, except the sentence that reads "there is no etiquette when it comes to Strava segments".
> 
> To wit, there is a pretty significant local climb that is used by a lot of people for training, commuting, etc... It's always been a very hotly contested segment.
> 
> ...


Jeebus, if they're that desperate they outta just digitally dope and save themselves some money . Then again for someone that morally bankrupt at least they support their LBS in the process :thumbsup:


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

pedalbiker said:


> Group rides and leadouts are legit.
> 
> Motorpacing is not.
> 
> That's about the only rule.


If you're a purist, HTFU and do it solo. In reality none of these "rules" apply and you're just kidding yourself.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

respro100 said:


> Just wanted to know what the general consensus is. Forgive me if there's already a 25 page thread on this


Er... People on Strava only compete with themselves. There is no such thing as competition between different people on Strava. So, if you wish to drive to the start of the segment with fresh legs - you are free to do so, just rememeber that this ride will only be comparable to other "fresh legs" rides of yours.

As for trying to compete with other people on Strava. Well... There's a witty Special Olympics reference in there somewhere, but everything I tried sounded rude. So I'll just say that people who do that are not generally regarded as smart or competent.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Your PR on any given segment is generally set with the aid of a group, or tail wind. It is not always indicative of your best effort.


Which can always be the case.

Which is why you use power. 

Which Strava very nicely includes in all segments.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

AndreyT said:


> Er... People on Strava only compete with themselves. There is no such thing as competition between different people on Strava. So, if you wish to drive to the start of the segment with fresh legs - you are free to do so, just rememeber that this ride will only be comparable to other "fresh legs" rides of yours.


Except if he breaks a record for the KOM segment, no?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

cooskull said:


> If you're a purist, HTFU and do it solo. In reality none of these "rules" apply and you're just kidding yourself.


They don't? 

Is motorpacing a legit way to take a KOM? How about the electric bike thing? I don't know anyone that would suggest they are. 

I don't know about you, but I know every KOM around here, and I know most everyone who has one. I'm not sure what you think qualifies as a purist, but riding solo doesn't really do it for me. After all, we don't race solo. 

KOM sniping group rides can be loads of fun. Now that the race season is winding down, we'll have quite a few coming up. I won't tell anyone you think we're just kidding ourselves, though. Just our little secret. :thumbsup:


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

AndreyT said:


> Er... People on Strava only compete with themselves. There is no such thing as competition between different people on Strava.


I don't think you really understand the whole KOM/QOM thing...


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

As long as your're using your own two legs it's all good. This isn't a UCI or Olympic sanctioned event. While there are Strava rankings you're really competing against yourself.


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## upstateSC-rider (Aug 21, 2004)

dougclaysmith said:


> Its strava, it's all sh!ts and giggles, have fun, whatever.
> 
> Me and a buddy went back and forth on a short little climb for the KOM. We'd break each others KOM, then sh!t talk about it. But it got to the point that I'd hit that segment hard only if I had a tail wind.
> 
> ...


Agreed, just don't expect everyone to wait for you if you blow up.


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## robt57 (Jul 23, 2011)

Trek_5200 said:


> As long as your're using your own two legs it's all good. This isn't a UCI or Olympic sanctioned event. While there are Strava rankings you're really competing against yourself.


I got tired of KOM monkeys blowing past me in one section locally here. I am at mile 35 with a high zone 3 or low zone 4 HR and get a too close blow by a racer wanna be. I started being fully recovered in that stretch and I'd pass them sitting at the section and watch for them in my mirror. I am old and fat, but recovered there is still few that can match me for 45 seconds when motivated and out of the saddle.

I have been having fun sitting in the big ring at 75 RPM in low zone 3 18 MPH or so, and when I see them in my close mirror I do a Cavindish on them. I watch them get smaller in my mirror when I sit back down and TT to my max HRM for the long straight stretch. Just a matter of time before it does not work, but I am having fun in the mean time. And I get a good interval outta it too.


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## Trek_5200 (Apr 21, 2013)

Everyone does different rides at different times. Today I rode 30 miles and hit 17 personal Strava records. Rode relatively fast. Other times I'll ride 100 or so miles, pass those same spots I do riding 30 miles and not be nearly so fast. It's all good. Just important to keep things in perspective.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> I don't think you really understand the whole KOM/QOM thing...


Oh yes, I do. But somehow it never really interfered with the fact that I only competed with myself. I didn't even lose my sleep when I lost my only KOM.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

AndreyT said:


> Oh yes, I do. But somehow it never really interfered with the fact that I only competed with myself. I didn't even lose my sleep when* I lost my only KOM*.


Ah, right. So because you can't take any KOMs, you denigrate those that can. Gotcha.


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## den bakker (Nov 13, 2004)

pedalbiker said:


> Which can always be the case.
> 
> Which is why you use power.
> 
> Which Strava very nicely includes in all segments.


assuming people use a powermeter of one form or another.


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## AndreyT (Dec 1, 2011)

pedalbiker said:


> Ah, right. So because you can't take any KOMs, you denigrate those that can. Gotcha.


Oh, you were pretty subtle in your previous message. Only now I realized that I stepped on your corns.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

pedalbiker said:


> They don't?
> 
> Is motorpacing a legit way to take a KOM? How about the electric bike thing? I don't know anyone that would suggest they are.
> 
> ...


Quite frankly I don't see much distinction between group riding and motor pacing, in both cases you're relying on drafting off other people to boost your speed. Heck, I'd go as far as to say the dude getting motor paced is at a disadvantage to the guy drafting off a huge pack in terms of aerodynamics.

Comparing riding a Strava segment to a running a race is ridiculous. Each rider potentially has different environmental conditions, "racing competitors", and equipment so you're really comparing apples to oranges in terms of results. Riding a segment in TT fashion levels the playing field to some degree.


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

pedalbiker said:


> Which can always be the case.
> 
> Which is why you use power.
> 
> Which Strava very nicely includes in all segments.


Power helps, but they do not allow you to sort your efforts by power. Your PRs are based on time (speed) and that's how they sort it. Watts/kg would be a better measure but not everyone has a power meter.


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## Mr645 (Jun 14, 2013)

Just have someone drive a car up the hill while you hang on to the side


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

cooskull said:


> Quite frankly I don't see much distinction between group riding and motor pacing, in both cases you're relying on drafting off other people to boost your speed. Heck, I'd go as far as to say the dude getting motor paced is at a disadvantage to the guy drafting off a huge pack in terms of aerodynamics.
> 
> Comparing riding a Strava segment to a running a race is ridiculous. Each rider potentially has different environmental conditions, "racing competitors", and equipment so you're really comparing apples to of results. Riding a segment in TT fashion levels the playing field to some degree.


You've clearly never done a motorpacing session, huh?

And no, a segment IS a race. That's precisely what trying to set the fastest possible time entails.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

AndreyT said:


> Oh, you were pretty subtle in your previous message. Only now I realized that I stepped on your corns.


Oh, don't worry. Your inabilities and public showcasing of such have no impact on me whatsoever.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Power helps, but they do not allow you to sort your efforts by power. Your PRs are based on time (speed) and that's how they sort it. Watts/kg would be a better measure but not everyone has a power meter.


The point was that speed hardly ever tells the true picture of a pr, regardless of whether or not its on strava. So if prs are what someone is fully focused on, they'd be remiss to ignore power.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

Form a club or group on Strava among your friends and people you know won't cheat. Then, you can compare to them only.
Even then it is not really "fair", for all the reasons cited above, but at least it weeds out the most egregious cheaters.
If you take Strava too seriously, either for or against, you have other problems that can't be solved here.


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## TJay74 (Sep 9, 2012)

I didn't get into Strava until this year, I use it as a training guide against the local riders I ride with to see how my training has progressed over the season.

As said I know most of my local riders so I don't question any of the segments, though I do like to go out and snipe them as well. I don't get many, but I have got a few.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

From what I've observed many who use Strava obsess over the segment(s) leader board they are hunting and are concerned more with what someone else is doing rather than working on their weaknesses/fitness. 

I found it sort of like facebook or here for that matter; fun to look at but, limited on substance, but once in a while peppered with some interesting posts. For me it was just another distraction that I wasn't interested in.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

cooskull said:


> Quite frankly I don't see much distinction between group riding and motor pacing,...snip


I have to disagree. If they were the same we wouldn't motorpace. The ability to stay glued to the wheel while the moto meters speed is just vastly different. IME Motor pacing can yield consistently faster speeds. Best try it but, get someone you trust...


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## ewitz (Sep 11, 2002)

Easiest way to grab segments is on a group ride. 

On wind aided days move to the back of the pack before the start of the segment and move up through the group aiming to be at the front or off the front by the end of the segment. Wind aided/draft aided.

Completely legit way to improve time on segments


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## jimbach (Jul 5, 2006)

I'm old and I'm slow, so take what I have to say in that context, but I really never worry about how other people perform on segments. I even only occasionally worry about how _I_ perform on them. In many cases I ride the same segments whilst commuting to work that I ride whilst 'training' (and I use that word rather loosely...) How can the two be comparable?

I'm by nature a fairly competitive person, but too much competition can ruin the fun of cycling.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

robt57 said:


> I got tired of KOM monkeys blowing past me in one section locally here. I am at mile 35 with a high zone 3 or low zone 4 HR and get a too close blow by a racer wanna be. I started being fully recovered in that stretch and I'd pass them sitting at the section and watch for them in my mirror. I am old and fat, but recovered there is still few that can match me for 45 seconds when motivated and out of the saddle.
> 
> I have been having fun sitting in the big ring at 75 RPM in low zone 3 18 MPH or so, and when I see them in my close mirror I do a Cavindish on them. I watch them get smaller in my mirror when I sit back down and TT to my max HRM for the long straight stretch. Just a matter of time before it does not work, but I am having fun in the mean time. And I get a good interval outta it too.


I have a few questions that I'm hoping you can answer.

1) How do you know the "KOM monkeys" are actually going for a PR/KOM? Did you ask them? Could it be they were doing intervals? Or similar?

2) You passed a "KOM monkey" later on during the ride - nice! Did they know you were racing against them?

3) So you see a guy in your mirror, and make it a point to sprint ahead of them? Because you...want to win the race? Beat them on some imaginary segment?

It seems like instead of riding against your PRs and the like you like to ride against other riders, albeit unbeknownst to them. Funny.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

woodys737 said:


> ...
> I found it sort of like facebook or here for that matter; fun to look at but, limited on substance, .... For me it was just another distraction that I wasn't interested in.



Of late I've found Strava a useful tool showing good data as opposed to a limited distraction.

On a recent ride the summary view gives me all the info I need:

Weighted Avg Power = NP
Training Load = TSS
Intensity = IF











If I want to compare the power profile for the current ride against the overall that's a click away, plus I simply need to hover over to see the best effort for a particular time period. Similar to GC Find Interval but a mouse hover away. Power zone distributions are also there and presented just like TrainingPeaks.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *TricrossRich*
> _The truth is, there really are no rules for Strava... do whatever you think is right/fair and if someone is doing something that you don't think is right/fair, who cares. Strava isn't paying your bills and or feeding your kids. Use it as*a tool to have fun and enjoy cycling*, if you'e getting worked up about it, you're missing the point._





arai_speed said:


> This! But the part in bold is key!


Agreed. Have fun, don't worry too much about all this etiquette. 

Don't worry too much about climbing the ladder with people you don't know. A small race can come to town and knock everyone out of the top 30 in one day.

Work to get PRs when you ride it. That is the true test and proper etiquette.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

Maybe we could expand the powers of the "cross-chaining police" to include the control of "KOM Monkeys" ?


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

arai_speed said:


> Of late I've found Strava a useful tool showing good data as opposed to a limited distraction.
> 
> On a recent ride the summary view gives me all the info I need:
> 
> ...


I too find Strava useful as a tool now. A subscription and a power meter (PM) do make the best use of the site.

I wanted to like Golden Cheetah, but I could not figure a way to have it analize data that only had HR info. (like my mtb rides where I don't have a PM)


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

ziscwg said:


> I too find Strava useful as a tool now. A subscription and a power meter (PM) do make the best use of the site.
> 
> I wanted to like Golden Cheetah, but I could not figure a way to have it analize data that only had HR info. (like my mtb rides where I don't have a PM)


I had a similar feeling the first time I used it. GC w/no Power seems empty but after more use I found that using cadence, HR and speed categories along with the scattered plot (say plot speed and cadence) or focus into a particular lap/interval can be very helpful.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

arai_speed said:


> Of late I've found Strava a useful tool showing good data as opposed to a limited distraction.
> 
> On a recent ride the summary view gives me all the info I need:
> 
> ...


Been using WKO+ for some years now. Would you say (those with PM's) can do/see/interpret pretty much everything they need with Strava compared to WKO?

Presenting the data as you have makes sense and it looks like Strava has grown up since I last used it.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I have never used WKO+ but if it's anything like the web version of Training Peaks then no - Strava can't do pretty much everything Training Peaks does.

No QA, scattered charts, columns charts etc.

Below is a view of other charts found in Strava.

1) Ride analysis - you can zoom in to a section or segment.
2) HR Analysis
3) Zones
4) Power Distribution
5) Similar to the Performance Management in TP but not as robust


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> And no, a segment IS a race. That's precisely what trying to set the fastest possible time entails.


Strava's lawyers argue differently. The case where a Berkeley resident tried to take back his KOM on a descent and died the lawyer for the family suing Strava tried to claim that Strava segments were races and therefore Strava was responsible.

Also, since when was road bike racing about setting the fastest possible time on a course? It's about who crosses the line first, not about setting some time on a virtual d!ck-length board.


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## Jay Strongbow (May 8, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> I have to disagree. If they were the same we wouldn't motorpace. The ability to stay glued to the wheel while the moto meters speed is just vastly different. IME Motor pacing can yield consistently faster speeds. Best try it but, get someone you trust...


I think you took his statement out of context and didn't catch what he's getting at. He doesn't mean they are the same with regard to skill required or that they boost your speed the same but with regard to strava and neither being a true indicator of what that individual can do because they are getting help.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

deviousalex said:


> Also, since when was road bike racing about setting the fastest possible time on a course?


Since the invention of the time trial. The person who crosses the line first hardly ever wins. The person with the fastest time does.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

arai_speed said:


> On a recent ride the summary view gives me all the info I need:
> 
> Weighted Avg Power = NP
> Training Load = TSS
> Intensity = IF


I don't think Strava calculates those the same. My NP on WKO is always substantially higher than it is on Strava. 

I don't know why Strava under reports it to such a degree, but I've never seen it agree to WKO (which is what I trust).


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

woodys737 said:


> Been using WKO+ for some years now. Would you say (those with PM's) can do/see/interpret pretty much everything they need with Strava compared to WKO?
> 
> Presenting the data as you have makes sense and it looks like Strava has grown up since I last used it.


I think WKO is far superior (as it should be). 

I signed up for the free Strava trial and cancelled it within a few days. Nothing doing for me. Strava also has limitations with regard to NP and adjusting FTP (can't, set different FTPs for different times of the year, apparently). That's a huge issue when tracking CTL throughout the season as your FTP should change throughout.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> Strava's lawyers argue differently. The case where a Berkeley resident tried to take back his KOM on a descent and died the lawyer for the family suing Strava tried to claim that Strava segments were races and therefore Strava was responsible.
> 
> Also, since when was road bike racing about setting the fastest possible time on a course? It's about who crosses the line first, not about setting some time on a virtual d!ck-length board.


Except such a case is stupid because there's no organization or scheduled event in the first place. 

Uh, since always. The person who crosses the line first has the fastest time against those competitors. 

Strava simply extends the pool of competitors and the length of time that race is available.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

tlg said:


> Since the invention of the time trial. The person who crosses the line first hardly ever wins. The person with the fastest time does.



Ha. And then there's that!


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think you took his statement out of context and didn't catch what he's getting at. He doesn't mean they are the same with regard to skill required or that they boost your speed the same but with regard to strava and neither being a true indicator of what that individual can do because they are getting help.


He incorrectly compared motorpacing and a group ride. 

They are not even remotely the same. Good riders will do motorpacing sessions at 35-40 mph for miles on end, over rollers and galore. Good luck finding a group that can do such a thing because, you know...they're people. And if they're strong enough to roll a KOM that hard, they're probably strong enough to have a go at it themselves. 

I could do a motorpacing session and take nearly every KOM and segment within a 50 mile radius. The opportunity to take such KOMs on a group ride, however, are few and far between owing to the caliber of riders necessary to hit the required speeds and their willingness to do so (because dudes that fast are generally pretty competitive in their own right and drilling it to the bottom of a hill so you can have everyone waiting for you at the top gets very old, very quickly). 

So no, he's just...wrong.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> I think WKO is far superior (as it should be).
> 
> I signed up for the free Strava trial and cancelled it within a few days. Nothing doing for me. Strava also has limitations with regard to NP and adjusting FTP (can't, set different FTPs for different times of the year, apparently). That's a huge issue when tracking CTL throughout the season as your FTP should change throughout.


Good info! Thanks pedal...


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## pulser955 (Apr 18, 2009)

pittcanna said:


> Just make sure if you do try for it on a group ride, make sure you communicate with your group your intent to try a segment, so you dont jump off the front and look like a jerk.
> 
> Who knows other might want to go along for the ride.


In the past I have gotten some really good PR's by chasing someone faster then me up a climb. We talked about it before and they knew I wanted to work on the segment. So everyone went for it. If you have a small group chasing segments can really make the ride interesting. Kind of like sprinting for the road sign but its recorded for everyone to see.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

Jay Strongbow said:


> I think you took his statement out of context and didn't catch what he's getting at. He doesn't mean they are the same with regard to skill required or that they boost your speed the same but with regard to strava and neither being a true indicator of what that individual can do because they are getting help.


Ah got it. Yes I agree with that. Thx for the clarification.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> I don't think Strava calculates those the same. My NP on WKO is always substantially higher than it is on Strava.
> 
> I don't know why Strava under reports it to such a degree, but I've never seen it agree to WKO (which is what I trust).


I would agree. I should have clarified that my comparison was a loose one, in that both system report similar values but do not use the same formula/algorithm to derive it.

If you use GC (instead of WKO) you will see identical numbers for:

Strava:Weighted Avg Power = GoldenCheeta:xPower ≈ NP
Strava:Training Load = GoldenCheeta:BikeScore≈ TSS

etc.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

tlg said:


> Since the invention of the time trial. The person who crosses the line first hardly ever wins. The person with the fastest time does.


Okay, let's say "road race or criterium" for the pedantic ones.



pedalbiker said:


> I don't think Strava calculates those the same. My NP on WKO is always substantially higher than it is on Strava.
> 
> I don't know why Strava under reports it to such a degree, but I've never seen it agree to WKO (which is what I trust).


Strava uses a slightly modified formula to compute weighted average power because they don't want to pay to use the WKO+/Coggan formula.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> Strava simply extends the pool of competitors and the length of time that race is available.


Except everyone who enters a bike race is competing, not everyone who rides a strava segment is actually competing.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> Except everyone who enters a bike race is competing, not everyone who rides a strava segment is actually competing.


I don't know dev. You're splitting hairs imo. I think in the general context of this thread, the strava segment hunter is most definitely competing. Whether against themselves or others I have no idea. I don't see anything wrong with that either. Seems like people want to tip toe around and say it's not what it is. 

I mean I could argue that not everyone who enters a sanctioned race is competing (or at least for themselves). Many times this year have I seen a concerted effort of a number of guys working for a team mate for the win. They themselves finish way down or dnf. 

I guess not being a user anymore myself I should ask what the point of Strava is? Honest question.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> I don't know dev. You're splitting hairs imo. I think in the general context of this thread, the strava segment hunter is most definitely competing.


The segment hunter is definitely competing against others, but others are not competing against him. It's like when you're soft pedaling and some Fred comes by and gives you a look like he's dropping you. He's competing against you, but you're not competing against him.


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## woodys737 (Dec 31, 2005)

deviousalex said:


> The segment hunter is definitely competing against others, but others are not competing against him. It's like when you're soft pedaling and some Fred comes by and gives you a look like he's dropping you. He's competing against you, but you're not competing against him.


I understand what you are saying now. But, I also sort of agree with pedal in that there is a fairly large slice of Strava peeps out there hunting and therefore the "competition" is sort of extended indefinitely. I mean I know many riders who hunt segment each week. It's sort of an obsession. Maybe not everyone but, it sure seems like a topic more and more talked about (overheard) on group rides, social media, etc...

I sort of view it like track athletes trying to break the 100m record. Not everyone can compete against everyone at the same time under the same conditions but, the fastest time still stands.


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

deviousalex said:


> Okay, let's say "road race or criterium" for the pedantic ones.


But Strava is more akin to a time trial than a road race or criterium since everyone doesn't start at the same time.

Oh and you could also say the Tour de France is all about time too. You could win the TdF and never cross a finish line first.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

woodys737 said:


> I sort of view it like track athletes trying to break the 100m record. Not everyone can compete against everyone at the same time under the same conditions but, the fastest time still stands.


But 100m records, and all track records, must be set in sanctioned events, with judges, officials, witnesses, ertc.....and there actually are limits to the amount of wind that can be present; probably other conditions that I don't even know about.

Bottom line: any comparison of Strava to any real "record" or "competition" is just laughable. Strava is a PRETEND "competition", strictly for fun and information. 
I use it a lot too. It is fun and informative. But there is NOTHING about it that can be taken seriously.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

When interjecting the concept or value of competing into an activity one is always first and foremost competing against themselves. This especially true of venues or situations like Strava. You do not know with certainty the credibility or circumstances of another rider's performance on a segment that you also ride. However, you do know all the variables and details regarding your effort, fitness, terrain, weather, etc.


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## Corey213 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just drive the climb, KOM for sure!


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

Here are my own thoughts - and I do use Strava for various reasons.

If you see someone that has a lot of KOMs, I'd be willing to be they earned them. If you see someone with 1 or 2 KOMs and they're all on easy hills or flats, it's a good bet they're just a KOM sniper. 

I've lived in the DC area and the Seattle area and looking at most of the major segments in both areas, there are a handful of guys and gals that have the majority of the KOM/QOMs. In almost all cases, they are hardcore riders that don't snipe the KOMs, they just happen to be [email protected] mofos who can hold their own. They could do it in a group, they could do it motopacing, they could do it solo. They could do it 30 miles into a ride or 3 miles into a ride. 

The best way to climb up the leader boards, if that's your desire, is to get faster. Work hard, train for strength, speed, power, and endurance. The funny thing is, when I started using Strava, I wasn't super fast or strong and I wanted tons of KOMs but had none. Now, I have several and I frankly don't care. In the past, I needed the validation of the KOM to tell me I was fast. Now, I just ride fast. I've even taken some from one of my teammates who is WAY faster than me. He doesn't care - in fact, he was happy for me since it means that I was starting to get stronger and faster. He and I both know he could still kick my lilly a$$ in any race, so it's not a concern.

If you want a KOM, go for it. Drive out to it. Do a group ride and grab it. Hell, hold onto a car window while you get it. Doing so won't garner you any respect in the community of people who are actually grabbing KOMs. However, if you happen to go out and hammer some of those KOMs legitimately, chances are, you'll probably find yourself frequently in the company of the others out there who have the other KOMs in the area. That respect you're hoping for by having the KOMs will be there and it won't have anything to do with the KOMs.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

All this talk about KOMs made me look at my profile. I have 25 of them, and I've only deliberately tried to snipe one (without success--the last time I looked I was 2nd on it by two seconds). They happen or they don't--usually on group rides with big packs and tailwinds. I will flag a ride if I know the rider was motorpacing or left the garmin on in his car, but that's it. It wouldn't bother me if strava dropped the whole kom business entirely.


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## Corenfa (Jun 9, 2014)

I just went to look at some of my KOMs after Fireform's reply and found that one that I just recently got was recently snagged. No biggie - it happens. I even had my kid take one from me (he's a natural climber!)

But, here's the rub - it's an obvious fake. There are 3 of us who have the KOM on this (tied) and this guy somehow sprinted from 4 MPH after the turn to 32 MPH in 12 feet. Other sections on the ride, he's show going from 0 MPH at a stop light up to 35 MPH by the time he's through the turn at the light. So, in other words, the guy had it on his motorcycle. Other tell tale signs - he has 1 total ride on Strava and it's this single ride. Also, he's shown as hitting 13% segments at 27 MPH without showing signs of slowing. Then there's a section where he would have to have been on a sidewalk (or in a busy highway section) and was going 45 MPH. 

So, yeah, I just flagged this one. 

That being said, all 3 guys that share the actual KOM on this one are guys that can be seen at the races throughout the area. Also, if you see in the picture where the offender here turned to get on the segment - all of the other guys have hit it from the straight section leading up to it and hit it at speed. We've all averaged 34 MPH for the whole segment - start to finish, yet this a$$clown starts the first 30 feet at 4 MPH then instantly goes up to 41. Ha. 

View attachment 308771


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Corenfa said:


> However, if you happen to go out and hammer some of those KOMs legitimately, chances are, you'll probably find yourself frequently in the company of the others out there who have the other KOMs in the area. That respect you're hoping for by having the KOMs will be there and it won't have anything to do with the KOMs.


I met up with a bunch of guys I currently ride with by taking some of their KOMs. We all met via Strava and now we have some awesome rides together. We still go snipe one another's KOMs from time to time, too.

In my area, the people that hold all of the biggest KOMs are also the people that hold the podium spots and state titles from the races. We all compete on Strava, and then we go compete in races.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

tlg said:


> But Strava is more akin to a time trial than a road race or criterium since everyone doesn't start at the same time.


It's more akin to a faff for me. I use it, mostly just to look at my power on particular segments and how I've progressed and it's useful in that. But I don't go KOM sniping or do leadout trains because someone wants to take segment x. There are plenty of hammerfest rides around here with known sprints that haven't changed in the past 30 years. If someone wants to go sprinting for glory but doesn't want to pay race fees they are welcome to ride on those rides.



> Oh and you could also say the Tour de France is all about time too. You could win the TdF and never cross a finish line first.


Hence it's called a "stage race".


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

.....


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> Except everyone who enters a bike race is competing, not everyone who rides a strava segment is actually competing.



Right. But that doesn't negate the competition that the KOM entails. 

Loads of people run 5k and 10k races (and every other manner of running distances) but don't "race" them. That doesn't negate that fact that there is still a race going on at the pointy end.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

motoricker said:


> Bottom line: any comparison of Strava to any real "record" or "competition" is just laughable.
> 
> It is fun and informative. But there is NOTHING about it that can be taken seriously.


Funny that a lot local KOMs and segments around here are held by pretty elite riders. 

I doubt any one would say those are laughable. Except, perhaps, someone who has no clue what it means to drop an effort that would get you to the top of one of those boards. 

There's always a comparison that can be made, always information that can be gleaned. My KOM list goes from one to two a month to four to five a week once race season nears and I start hitting it hard to find form. Same for other guys I know. If I don't see a guy for a while but then start noticing that he's racking up KOMs, I know he's coming into some form. 

Even more interesting to track time trial segments and koms. You can get a ton of info regarding wattage/cda from those. 

To suggest that nothing can be taken seriously from Strava is to espouse pure ignorance regarding the matter. 

Hell, just using it to find good climbs and roads in unknown areas is extremely beneficial.


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## TricrossRich (Mar 26, 2014)

Corenfa said:


> Here are my own thoughts - and I do use Strava for various reasons.
> 
> If you see someone that has a lot of KOMs, I'd be willing to be they earned them. If you see someone with 1 or 2 KOMs and they're all on easy hills or flats, it's a good bet they're just a KOM sniper.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head... perfectly. well done sir.


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

There is no reason to try and belittle those who chase KOM's because you don't or can't or to belittle those who don't chase KOM's for whatever reason they have for it.

Strava is a great tool. For some chasing KOMs is a good motivation to push themselves to get better. For others it is simply a tool to keep track of rides and relevant ride information. You can make of it what you want. 

For me it is more of a way to see how I am improving, but I have also chased a few segments I enjoy riding. I have helped others in the group get KOM's as well as been on the lucky end of rotating to the front near the end for a few. The important thing is to enjoy the riding (and for me that involves going fast). So while I generally don't go for KOMs I'm always trying to go faster for the sake of going faster.

The local segments are mostly dominated by guys who race here as well. I would assume that to be the case in most places.

While there aren't any "rules" I would imagine anything involving motorized things being frowned upon.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

taodemon said:


> While there aren't any "rules" I would imagine anything involving motorized things being frowned upon.


Actually there are, you can't use motorized bicycles or cars on segments. I was tlaking to someone who works in their support department and they found whole clubs of people sniping KOMs on eBikes.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> Loads of people run 5k and 10k races (and every other manner of running distances) but don't "race" them. That doesn't negate that fact that there is still a race going on at the pointy end.


Except they entered those events voluntarily. You can't pick and choose which segments you want to match.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

Strava will be gamed just like everything else in life. Nothing you can do about it, and little chance you will know when you've been gamed. That KOM? Could have been done on a moped. Who's to know?

Accept what it.

Namaste.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

tlg said:


> Since the invention of the time trial. The person who crosses the line first hardly ever wins. The person with the fastest time does.





pedalbiker said:


> I don't think Strava calculates those the same. My NP on WKO is always substantially higher than it is on Strava.
> 
> I don't know why Strava under reports it to such a degree, but I've never seen it agree to WKO (which is what I trust).





tvad said:


> Strava will be gamed just like everything else in life. Nothing you can do about it, and little chance you will know when you've been gamed. That KOM? Could have been done on a moped. Who's to know?
> 
> Accept what it.
> 
> Namaste.


Levi owns most of the climb KOMs in Sonoma County. That was brought to you by the pharmaceutical industry.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> Except they entered those events voluntarily. You can't pick and choose which segments you want to match.


You are so clinging to nothing, bud. 

Take a step back and figure out what you're trying to argue. There's absolutely no substance there. 

You want to ignore what a KOM is, good stuff. But come off the convoluted semantics trip.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

tvad said:


> Strava will be gamed just like everything else in life. Nothing you can do about it, and little chance you will know when you've been gamed. That KOM? Could have been done on a moped. *Who's to know?*


Anyone who looks at an analysis of the ride. No power, cadence, or hr? Segment is crazy fast compared to the rest of a 15 mph ride? Big red flags. Takes about 5 seconds to look through and figure out.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> Levi owns most of the climb KOMs in Sonoma County. That was brought to you by the pharmaceutical industry.


Yep. As I said earlier, I flagged some of Tom Danielson's rides. Ironically enough, the title of one of his KOM attempts in Spain is something to the effect that he took this KOM from Joe D (?) without motorpacing. 

I flagged it for chemical cheating but it was overturned. B.S.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> Anyone who looks at an analysis of the ride. No power, cadence, or hr? Segment is crazy fast compared to the rest of a 15 mph ride? Big red flags. Takes about 5 seconds to look through and figure out.


If you say so. 

I personally know someone who owns a local KOM, who admitted with a smile that he was motor paced up the climb. Had he not said anything, there is little evidence on Strava to indicate that it wasn't legitimately done (heart rate, cadence, power, etc.).

Everyone who does that climb has been gamed.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

tvad said:


> If you say so.
> 
> I personally know someone who owns a local KOM, who admitted with a smile that he was motor paced up the climb. Had he not said anything, there is little evidence on Strava to indicate that it wasn't legitimately done (heart rate, cadence, power, etc.).
> 
> Everyone who does that climb has been gamed.



Well, yeah. Motorpacing is a bit different if it was only done on one particular segment (otherwise, in the midst of a motorpacing session you'd see extended time periods of 30+, which is obviously suspect if not in a very big race).

You said on a moped. Something like that, or hanging onto a car or something, that's pretty obvious.


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> You said on a moped.


I cop to the bad example.

The point remains. Strava can be (and is) gamed with no one being the wiser.

Best not to take Strava KOMs too seriously, IMO.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

tvad said:


> I cop to the bad example.
> 
> The point remains. Strava can be (and is) gamed with no one being the wiser.
> 
> Best not to take Strava KOMs too seriously, IMO.


Yes, for sure, people can cheat just like they can in regular bike racing. 

But at the end of the day, people know. If a local cat 1 gets blasted by a weekend warrior, then we're going to figure out the game pretty quickly and that KOM won't last long, even if we have to line up a five person time trial with a monsoon-like tailwind to retake it. 

There's a massive disparity in riding abilities on Strava and the creme eventually rises to the top. 

You may not take it seriously, but competition is serious stuff for the competitive. And then we have a good laugh about it afterwards. Because damn, what's the point of hurting so much if you're not making other people hurt worse?


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## tvad (Aug 31, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> Yes, for sure, people can cheat just like they can in regular bike racing.
> 
> But at the end of the day, people know. If a local cat 1 gets blasted by a weekend warrior, then we're going to figure out the game pretty quickly and that KOM won't last long, even if we have to line up a five person time trial with a monsoon-like tailwind to retake it.
> 
> ...


The man who owns the KOM due to motor pacing in my example is an ex pro in his thirties. He's not a Fred getting a KOM over a Cat 1. 

Strava is gamed. 

You're too smart to be gamed. I get it.

Have a nice evening.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

tvad said:


> The man who owns the KOM due to motor pacing in my example is an ex pro in his thirties. He's not a Fred getting a KOM over a Cat 1.
> 
> Strava is gamed.
> 
> ...


I'm super excited you've gone out of your way to come up with this one whole example to the contrary, despite not really negating anything else I've said. Clearly you are correct, but just as clearly, this is a rather rare occurrence. But kudos on your success in this venture. You have a nice evening, too.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> But at the end of the day, people know. If a local cat 1 gets blasted by a weekend warrior, then we're going to figure out the game pretty quickly and that KOM won't last long, even if we have to line up a five person time trial with a monsoon-like tailwind to retake it.


Strava Segment | Mt. Hamilton (official to gate)

The KOM was taken on a virtual trainer (people looked back through his history and saw him telling people it was on a trainer) and it still stands. This guy is #winning


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

deviousalex said:


> Strava Segment | Mt. Hamilton (official to gate)
> 
> The KOM was taken on a virtual trainer (people looked back through his history and saw him telling people it was on a trainer) and it still stands. This guy is #winning


Since KOMs dont' meant $h1t - I flagged it.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

arai_speed said:


> Since KOMs dont' meant $h1t - I flagged it.


This instance has been discussed on a mailing list with Strava employees and I'm sure was flagged by many of those people on the list. That was ~7 months ago, and it's still there!


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> This instance has been discussed on a mailing list with Strava employees and I'm sure was flagged by many of those people on the list. That was ~7 months ago, and it's still there!


I don't think some people know how flagging works. As soon as you flag a ride it gets removed from rankings. Now I'm not sure how easy it is to contest one of your rides getting flagged or if it is just a matter of uploading it again to get back on the rankings but I have yet to see a ride I've flagged not get immediately removed from rankings.

You can only flag rides through the website and not the phone app. 

In some ways it is good that not as many people know about it as that might cause plenty of false positives of people just upset they lost their KOM's to better riders.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

taodemon said:


> I don't think some people know how flagging works. As soon as you flag a ride it gets removed from rankings. Now I'm not sure how easy it is to contest one of your rides getting flagged or if it is just a matter of uploading it again to get back on the rankings but I have yet to see a ride I've flagged not get immediately removed from rankings.


Maybe the guy re-uploaded the ride. I'm amazed they allow that, it's super trivial to block.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

deviousalex said:


> Let me let you in on the secret I've realized after using Strava for 3 years. It's who cares. No one will care about your dumb segments and no one will give you respect for KOMing them. Use it to track your own progress. Not to be a dumb troll or go trolling.


DeviousAlex - for not caring about "dumb segments" or "KOMing" you sure seem to post *a lot* to the contrary!


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## Blue CheeseHead (Jul 14, 2008)

deviousalex said:


> Levi owns most of the climb KOMs in Sonoma County. That was brought to you by the pharmaceutical industry.


Levi is still setting KOMs and has no need, at this point in his life, to dope. Yes, he doped to excel against the top 20 riders in the world. Clean there is no doubt he would have been able to hang in the pro peloton, which few, if any, people here could do. 

I do follow Levi on Strava mainly to get ideas for rides in the Healdsburg area. I see he did the Terrible Two and averaged over 20 mph. Probably slow for current pros, but crazy for weekend warriors.


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## cooskull (Nov 30, 2013)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Levi is still setting KOMs and has no need, at this point in his life, to dope. Yes, he doped to excel against the top 20 riders in the world. Clean there is no doubt he would have been able to hang in the pro peloton, which few, if any, people here could do.
> 
> I do follow Levi on Strava mainly to get ideas for rides in the Healdsburg area. I see he did the Terrible Two and averaged over 20 mph. Probably slow for current pros, but crazy for weekend warriors.


Speaking of pros cleaning up the KOMs, Tom Danielson just sweept up a bunch of uber popular and hotly contested climbing KOMs in my neck of the woods with this ride. I'm guessing he was pissed that he will probably get banned for doping and figured he'd leave his legacy somehow before the juice wore off. Classy stuff. Anyways somebody flagged the ride, we'll see how that ends up.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

arai_speed said:


> DeviousAlex - for not caring about "dumb segments" or "KOMing" you sure seem to post *a lot* to the contrary!


Side effect of being bored (at work and otherwise).



Blue CheeseHead said:


> Levi is still setting KOMs and has no need, at this point in his life, to dope. Yes, he doped to excel against the top 20 riders in the world. Clean there is no doubt he would have been able to hang in the pro peloton, which few, if any, people here could do.


Long term effects of PED use. The effects don't magically go away once you stop using them. He's still beating current MTB pros in bay area XC races.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

cooskull said:


> Speaking of pros cleaning up the KOMs, Tom Danielson just sweept up a bunch of uber popular and hotly contested climbing KOMs in my neck of the woods with this ride. I'm guessing he was pissed that he will probably get banned for doping and figured he'd leave his legacy somehow before the juice wore off. Classy stuff. Anyways somebody flagged the ride, we'll see how that ends up.


Man someone really took the piss out of him in the comments.



> Pete The Volume - Godammit Tom. Stop proving to the world that you're a doped up nincompoop. Seriously man, you've taken the jobs of CLEAN cyclists who have busted their balls for decades. And to everyone here who supports this charlatan of testosterone; get the **** out of cycling. We're done. You're a waste of human sperm. You've been an unfaithful husband for years. The Boulder community no longer accepts you. You're not welcome here.


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## ziscwg (Apr 19, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Strava Segment | Mt. Hamilton (official to gate)
> 
> The KOM was taken on a virtual trainer (people looked back through his history and saw him telling people it was on a trainer) and it still stands. This guy is #winning


Wait, the date of that KOM is on the Mt Hamilton Road race date. Last time I checked, you could not do that on a trainer. Plus, you have to somehow sync up with 9 other riders.

If you could expand on how a trainer give actual GPS points to your computer, that would also help.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> Wait, the date of that KOM is on the Mt Hamilton Road race date. Last time I checked, you could not do that on a trainer. Plus, you have to somehow sync up with 9 other riders.


arai_speed flagged the ride and now the KOM is the legitimate one.



> If you could expand on how a trainer give actual GPS points to your computer, that would also help.


Using a computrianer like the Wahoo. Wahoo Fitness Releases Indoor Training App with Strava KOM Segments - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos

There are many of these available that spit out TCX/FIT files after the ride which then you can upload to strava.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

There is a really easy way to really find out whether you are "KOM quality" or not:

Enter real races. 

One has to wonder why anyone would become so passionate either defending or denegrating strava. It is an information and fun tool that can be taken seriously only to the extent that you personally know the conditions under which the rides were made.

I'm surprised the "digital EPO" program hasn't been mentioned yet (that I've seen).
You can "juice" your strava files so that they still look "plausible", and yet you get the KOM by a few seconds.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

motoricker said:


> I'm surprised the "digital EPO" program hasn't been mentioned yet (that I've seen).
> You can "juice" your strava files so that they still look "plausible", and yet you get the KOM by a few seconds.


Digital EPO used a basic algorithm that was easy to detect, Strava now supposedly can detect it's use and block those rides. I'm genuinely surprised someone hasn't created another version which instead of modifying current GPS/data points it creates new ones, which is essentially what these virtual trainers do.

How to tell if someone used Digital Epo to cheat on Strava | ScarletFire Cycling


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Funny coincidence.

One of my rides was "Flagged" today.

The options to fix this were:

Crop File
Make Private
Request Support Review
Trust me, it's fine

I of course picked the last option!


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## taodemon (Mar 17, 2014)

arai_speed said:


> Funny coincidence.
> 
> One of my rides was "Flagged" today.
> 
> ...


"Trust me, it's fine" is actually an option??? Kind of trivializes flagging but there is nothing to prevent the same person from flagging again? A battle of who clicks the most?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Blue CheeseHead said:


> Levi is still setting KOMs and has no need, at this point in his life, to dope. Yes, he doped to excel against the top 20 riders in the world. Clean there is no doubt he would have been able to hang in the pro peloton, which few, if any, people here could do.


While I don't disagree about his natural abilities and the fact that he would have been a pro regardless, doping absolutely helped him and still has an enormous impact on his abilities today, even if he hasn't doped in years. 

So any argument about him not doping currently doesn't matter much. He did and he still benefits from that.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

taodemon said:


> "Trust me, it's fine" is actually an option??? Kind of trivializes flagging but there is nothing to prevent the same person from flagging again? A battle of who clicks the most?


Actual option text : "The activity is fine, trust me"

Per their support site, if the activity is flagged a second time, that option to dismiss the flag will not be available. So the battle of the clicks ends.

And I forgot to include a 5th option - "Delete this Activity"


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

pedalbiker said:


> ...doping absolutely helped him and still has an enormous impact on his abilities today, even if he hasn't doped in years.
> 
> So any argument about him not doping currently doesn't matter much. He did and he still benefits from that.


Honest question.

If the above is the case - than why don't dopers dope in the off season and forgo the risks of getting caught?


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

taodemon said:


> "Trust me, it's fine" is actually an option??? Kind of trivializes flagging but there is nothing to prevent the same person from flagging again? A battle of who clicks the most?


No, you can only flag a ride once. Afterwards, if you try again, you get a message that you can't flag a ride that's already been reviewed. I just tried to flag that Tommy D file and was told I couldn't because it'd already been settled.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

arai_speed said:


> Honest question.
> 
> If the above is the case - than why don't dopers dope in the off season and forgo the risks of getting caught?


They do. And I'm sure there are cycles for that stuff, too. I doubt they're on it all the time, but I also wouldn't doubt they're doing nefarious stuff at any time of the year. That's why there are out of competition tests and the bio passport. 

EPO and Testosterone and other stuff have enormous recovery benefits. A guy training can take that stuff and train way, way harder than he would otherwise. That has a big residual effect over months and years. But to stay at the very top of the game, you gotta keep the juice flowing to keep that training load up. 

And then of course, while racing you want to be as recovered as possible.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

arai_speed said:


> Honest question.
> 
> If the above is the case - than why don't dopers dope in the off season and forgo the risks of getting caught?


Why are you assuming they don't? Probably less now that out of competition testing is a lot more stringent and not the joke it used to be. There's a reason why you have to be in the biological passport system for 6 months to race at the world tour level.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> Digital EPO used a basic algorithm that was easy to detect, Strava now supposedly can detect it's use and block those rides. I'm genuinely surprised someone hasn't created another version which instead of modifying current GPS/data points it creates new ones, which is essentially what these virtual trainers do.
> 
> How to tell if someone used Digital Epo to cheat on Strava | ScarletFire Cycling


I don't know what "Digital EPO" actually uses, but I have enough computer programming experience to know that it would be an absolutely trivial matter to make a completely undetectable version of it if anyone were so inclined.....and I am sure some people are so inclined. 

It is just strings of numbers. They could be "stretched" or "contracted" at will. There could even be "randomness" imposed on then to make it seem more "realistic". 

But really...who cares ?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Zwift rolls out first real world course: UCI 2015 Road World Championships in Richmond | DC Rainmaker

Looks like Strava now has "virtual" segments that mirror real world ones.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

^ all the zpower guys will claim they are faster then the pros after the WC is over


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

deviousalex said:


> Zwift rolls out first real world course: UCI 2015 Road World Championships in Richmond | DC Rainmaker
> 
> Looks like Strava now has "virtual" segments that mirror real world ones.


Looks like only from Swift thus far. A buddy uploaded a smart-trainer ride just yesterday and Strava still considers it a "Ride".


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

Strava is to bicycle racing as "Guitar Hero" is to guitar playing. 

OK....maybe not quite as silly, but you get the idea.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

motoricker said:


> Strava is to bicycle racing as "Guitar Hero" is to guitar playing.
> 
> OK....maybe not quite as silly, but you get the idea.


You are starting to sound like Frederico and the story of his epic climb up Mount Wilson using real man's gear.


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## xml-2277 (Dec 31, 2014)

*Interestin*

Interesting. .....


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

The one thing that mystifies me about all this is: Why does anyone take any of this Strava nonsense serious? Really, who the hell cares? If you like to putz around on Strava for fun, fine, but believing any of this has any meaning in the real world? I'm truly puzzled.



motoricker said:


> Strava is to bicycle racing as "Guitar Hero" is to guitar playing.
> 
> OK....maybe not quite as silly, but you get the idea.


No, I do think it's an apt analogy, and one is every bit as "silly" (or not) as the other. I hear plenty of people take "Guitar Hero" quite serious, too. And, not that I know much about it, but my guess is cheating in "Guitar Hero" is a lot harder than doing the same on Strava.


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## BacDoc (Aug 1, 2011)

arai_speed said:


> Honest question.
> 
> If the above is the case - than why don't dopers dope in the off season and forgo the risks of getting caught?


As mentioned previously, the pros use cycles and they have it down so it is very hard to detect and the benefits are long term. It's not just the pros. There are many amateurs doing cycles too. Physicians who specialize in "Anti Aging Medicine" are using protocols that have been honed by professional athletes. Testosterone, HGH, estrogen blockers, thyroid hormones etc can give a middle aged person the ability to train as hard and recover like a 20 yr old. It can be very expensive as no insurance will cover this and most Anti Aging Docs are cash only.

Pretty sure there is a lot of this going on with many Strava segments, especially in wealthier communities as cycles can get pretty expensive. Test is cheap but other stuff and blood work can add up. Legitimate HGH can run $1000 a month for "theraputic" dose that can make a 50yr old feel and train like they're 20yrs younger. Average college ball player with pro aspirations is doing 2-3 times that. 

Anytime there is a gold medal, podium KOM etc there will be doping. In the Doping Forum there is a link to British investigative journalist's video. He obtained data from blood tests from athletes of all disciplines over the years and analysis of that data is very incriminating, implicating many gold medalists and in some cases entire podiums with blood levels clearly consistent with doping and these are the athletes that did not get caught.

Those who want to run like the Kenyans or ride like the pros usually follow what the pros do if they want results.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Pirx said:


> The one thing that mystifies me about all this is: Why does anyone take any of this Strava nonsense serious? Really, who the hell cares? If you like to putz around on Strava for fun, fine, but believing any of this has any meaning in the real world? I'm truly puzzled.
> 
> .


I always find posts like yours ironic (concerning any subject matter). 

The same essential question can be thrown right back at you. Why do you care what other people care about?


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## Oldbikah (Apr 16, 2015)

It is interesting. I use Strava to keep track of my own progress during the riding season. It's a great way to see if you're really working honestly to get stronger. There are younger, stronger riders that I will never be able to catch. It's a given. Big deal, I'm over it. 

I know guys, me included, that go out on solo rides to get some measure of performance on a Strava sector. Sometimes competition among your riding buddies does happen. Nothing wrong with that.

If you're in a group ride, then forget Strava KOMs and PRs and enjoy the group ride. The whole idea about riding a bike for me is to have fun, improve/maintain fitness and have fun, alone and with other riders. If you can't enjoy the actual riding part because you're all about Strava KOM-ing and PR-ing, you're missing out on 99% of the value.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

You guys think you have it bad with strava? 

There's a local racer in my area who hangs on the back of the moped he uses for motopacing. He has been doing it for years. 25+ mph up 8% grades. 36 mph on a 4 mile stretch of undulating hills. And so on. 

He also makes dozens and dozens of segments on every route. A single stretch of road might have a dozen segments. The guy will blow through behind his moped at 35+ mph and later create countless overlapping segments: "From here to there" or "Crucial Hill" and "Who wants it most?!?" 

Last Friday I did a 16 mi easy ride to loosen up for a Sat race. There were 175 segments, most made by this guy. 

Many of the segments have his name in them. "[So-and-so] owns this segment" or "Hardest climb in the county by [so-and-so]" -- it's unreal. "Fastest descenders only - [so-and-so]"!

He does this to all of the local fast ride routes. I have been on fast Saturday Morning Sufferfest group rides with a hard tailwind, drafting pros and national champions, wankers are blown off the back of the group because the pace is so hard, yet somehow I move through the pack to contest the final sprint. Despite spinning out my gears I am still 3-4 seconds back on the leaderboard because this one guy blew through the area sitting in the back of a pickup truck at noon on a Wednesday. 

And god forbid I take one of his KOMs. He will take it back within 2-3 days by a few seconds. Or he will edit the segment so that I am no longer on top.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Local Hero said:


> You guys think you have it bad with strava?


Wow.That pretty much takes the cake, there. I'd just start flagging everything he does, even if it doesn't get him deleted. What a tosser.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

pedalbiker said:


> I always find posts like yours ironic (concerning any subject matter).
> 
> The same essential question can be thrown right back at you. Why do you care what other people care about?


Who says I care? I'm puzzled, yes, but that's quite a few categories removed from "caring".


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

Local Hero said:


> You guys think you have it bad with strava?


So, let me repeat my question: What do you feel is "bad" about the situation described in that amusing little story of yours? Do you really care? If so, why?



pedalbiker said:


> I'd just start flagging everything he does, even if it doesn't get him deleted. What a tosser.


Same question for you: Why would you care (since you obviously would)?

P.S.: Oh, and just in case you ask: No, I don't care, but I'm mildly curious.


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## GlobalGuy (Jun 9, 2015)

Strava's a fun and productive tool for those that are interested in the data it provides. You can use it to measure your level of performance and as a record of where you ride and when. 

Besides purely recreational health and performance measurements if you happen to like to compete you can "race" against yourself if you are interested in that type of thing plus you can race against other people of your size and age over a given course or segment. 

Strava basic is free and premium is something like six dollars a months. 

For those that care about cheaters on Strava they are but a small minority and easy to spot and naturally their time doesn't affect or impact your performance or Strava data. 

Strava--it's there for those that are interested in what if offers and for those that do not and don't care to use it then it has no impact upon their cycling experience or life. No big deal.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> Wow.That pretty much takes the cake, there. I'd just start flagging everything he does, even if it doesn't get him deleted. What a tosser.


People have tried. He's friends with several strava employees. 




Pirx said:


> So, let me repeat my question: What do you feel is "bad" about the situation described in that amusing little story of yours? Do you really care? If so, why?


His antics can take some of the fun out of things though. If I take a local hillclimb KOM and bleed out my eyes, with 1300+ VAM, then he takes it from me with 2000+ VAM...that stings a little. Especially when I do a "strava flyby" on the ride and see him slow to zero mph and then suddenly accelerate to 27mph up the climb. That's a sticky bottle if I have ever seen one. 

I don't even bother flagging though.

Ultimately I am at peace with the situation. Strava is a good training tool. And it can be pretty fun, especially the competition. The local racer who terrorizes the leaderboards is actually a friend of mine. 

My story just shows that there are some people who *really* take strava seriously. People complain about what happens in their area...well I have never heard of anyone as bad as this guy when it comes to taking things on strava seriously. 

I'll tell one more story. A former BMX Olympic medalist moved to our area. BMX guy and I rode a few times together and get along well. Nice dude and a pretty good road cyclist. He is humble and has nothing to prove. Yet he is a savage killer on the bike. We follow one another on strava but his profile is private -- only people he accepts can see his accomplishments. 

One day we did a hard ride and alternated 1-2 on a few segments. We had good tailwinds and unintentionally took the local racer's KOMs. After I uploaded my ride I got a phone call from the local racer. He asked if we did it on purpose. No, we were just riding. Then he said that the BMX Olympian had blocked him weeks earlier. Could I go to his achievements and get a list of his KOMs in the area? "You know, just something to shoot for in training." 

LOL


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

wow you buddy is overkill on strava... way way to serious. He must have 50 pages of KOMs....I'm in the bay area too, but not good enough to go KOM chasing.. few top 10's or 20's and I'm happy. Too many strong riders around these parts.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

I just checked: 108 pages of KOMs. 20 KOMs per page.


Every time he rides he creates several new segments. If he can blast through a couple of intersections, make a run down an alleyway, and then carry speed on the other side there will be multiple new segments. One for the entire length, one for the block between the intersections, one for the alley, one for midway through the block and the alley, one from just before the first stoplight to midway through the alley, et cetera. 

Ride around a single block and you will cross ten segments. It's amazing.


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## Oldbikah (Apr 16, 2015)

Time to get some of your riding friends out on mopeds. Or Scooters. KOM everything he KOMs unrealistically. Shut him down. 

I still just use my numbers for myself. I could care less what anyone else is doing, except maybe some of the guys in my riding group :smile5:. 

I did leave Strava on one time when at almost dark my wife came by give me a lift home. I saw my KOM for a segment just down the road after I got home. Edited the bogus part of the ride out right away. Ludicrous KOM gone.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

Local Hero said:


> I just checked: 108 pages of KOMs. 20 KOMs per page.
> 
> 
> Every time he rides he creates several new segments. If he can blast through a couple of intersections, make a run down an alleyway, and then carry speed on the other side there will be multiple new segments. One for the entire length, one for the block between the intersections, one for the alley, one for midway through the block and the alley, one from just before the first stoplight to midway through the alley, et cetera.
> ...


He must be a VIP @ KOM club


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## Wetworks (Aug 10, 2012)

spdntrxi said:


> wow you buddy is overkill on strava... way way to serious. He must have 50 pages of KOMs....I'm in the bay area too, but *not good enough to go KOM chasing.. few top 10's or 20's and I'm happy*. Too many strong riders around these parts.


This. 

I use it as a measuring stick against riders who are consistently in the same ballpark as me on the same segments and try to push myself *that much harder* to get ahead of them. First time I hit the top 20 with the club riders in my area I knew I had finally reached my goals. That said, I will definitely go the extra mile to flag BS KOMs like 35+ on 5% grades after doing 8 MPH "lunch rides."


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Local Hero said:


> You guys think you have it bad with strava?
> 
> There's a local racer in my area who hangs on the back of the moped he uses for motopacing. He has been doing it for years. 25+ mph up 8% grades. 36 mph on a 4 mile stretch of undulating hills. And so on.
> 
> ...


"Hide" said segment(s).

Not only will that hide the segment from your rides/views but if enough people hide said segments they will automatically be hidden by default on everyone rides.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Who says I care? I'm puzzled, yes, but that's quite a few categories removed from "caring".


Clearly you care and are expressing that concern. That you're puzzled is yet another example of "caring". 

Like I could say I couldn't care less if you agree, but here I am replying to you.

If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't post about it and neither would I. That would be the ultimate expression of "I don't care".


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Same question for you: Why would you care (since you obviously would)?
> 
> P.S.: Oh, and just in case you ask: No, I don't care, but I'm mildly curious.


I do care. I flag KOMs all the time. If someone takes one of my KOMs, first thing I do is analyze the ride, looking at power or hr and or speed. Something smells fishy, I flag it. 

I like being at the top of the leader board. I train a lot for it. 

I win real bike races, too, but I've had more people recognize my name from Strava than from actual bike races. Many, many more. Because everyone can Strava. And only a few people can race. 

It's an ego thing.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Is it OK to admit to caring about strava? 

I am not going to lose any sleep over strava but I can admit that it matters to me to an extent. This is the same as anything I work hard to accomplish. If I bust my ass I appreciate it when there is some recognition out there. And if I bust my ass but then someone comes and sh!ts all over the recognition system, that takes a little bit away from my accomplishment. I know it shouldn't matter but it does. 

Is that a difficult thing to admit? 

When I take a step back, there are a lot of little things that I get worked up about which do not matter in the big picture. Strava ranks on the low end of concerns when it comes to "don't sweat the small stuff" ... but it's still something. I still check the leaderboards. 


And I already said that I have a strava terrorist in my area but I have come to grips with it. Just tonight I pushed it up a riser. 396 watts for 90 seconds. Not anything crazy but it felt good, especially after racing so much over the last few days. As it turns out I am 4th on the leaderboard. Two guys are tied for second place: 1:26 seconds for both. Not bad. I bet that if I hit the 90 degree turn leading to the segment harder I could go below that mark with the same power. Or I could push just that much harder. 

The local racer I've mentioned has the KOM: :46 seconds! 
.25 mile. 8% grade. 20.1mi/h average;	27.1mi/h top speed. 

I will never be able to take this KOM from him. There's nothing that can be done about it. And he has nearly every local KOM. Maybe since I beat him in the real races I'm not even mad.


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

pedalbiker said:


> Clearly you care and are expressing that concern. That you're puzzled is yet another example of "caring".


Now don't be silly hon. You're on a straight road to making a fool of yourself. There is no concern nor care; you could call my interest an ethological one: I may be interested in why certain birds perform elaborate mating rituals, and may wonder about the path that evolution took to develop these. That doesn't mean I care one wit about the "feelings" of those birds; least of all would I berate those animals for their behavior. Nevertheless, I may find that behavior interesting, and try to find out more about its causes. Is this analogy clear enough for you?



Local Hero said:


> Is it OK to admit to caring about strava?


Of course it is.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Pirx said:


> Now don't be silly hon. You're on a straight road to making a fool of yourself. There is no concern nor care; you could call my interest an ethological one: I may be interested in why certain birds perform elaborate mating rituals, and may wonder about the path that evolution took to develop these. That doesn't mean I care one wit about the "feelings" of those birds; least of all would I berate those animals for their behavior. Nevertheless, I may find that behavior interesting, and try to find out more about its causes. Is this analogy clear enough for you?


For a while there I thought you truly didn't care. 

But then you replied with some random strawman about bird feelings...


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## Pirx (Aug 9, 2009)

pedalbiker said:


> For a while there I thought you truly didn't care.
> 
> But then you replied with some random strawman about bird feelings...


Hmm, so not clear enough. Unable to understand the purpose of analogy, or the meaning of the term "strawman". I'm afraid I don't want to spend the effort to stoop down to communicate at your level then.


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> I do care. I flag KOMs all the time. If someone takes one of my KOMs, first thing I do is analyze the ride, looking at power or hr and or speed. Something smells fishy, I flag it.
> 
> ....
> It's an ego thing.


Wow! I guess so!


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## motoricker (May 9, 2010)

I "care" in that I do upload my files to Strava, and try to get KOMs and PRs, and notice how I rank in my clubs and the people I am following. It is fun, and I know that the people I follow don't cheat. 

But even at that, most KOMs and PRs are heavily wind-dependent. Or whether you were in a group., or of a fortuitous garbage truck passed and gave a little drafting help. 

I "don't care" in the sense that there are a lot of "superhuman" performances that occasionally show up in the rankings of the segments I typically follow. How did they do that ? I don't know, and I am not going to start analyzing or flagging them.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

Pirx said:


> Now don't be silly hon. You're on a straight road to making a fool of yourself. There is no concern nor care; you could call my interest an ethological one: I may be interested in why certain birds perform elaborate mating rituals, and may wonder about the path that evolution took to develop these. That doesn't mean I care one wit about the "feelings" of those birds; least of all would I berate those animals for their behavior. Nevertheless, I may find that behavior interesting, and try to find out more about its causes. Is this analogy clear enough for you?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is.


Are you saying there is a strava app for birds? 







Pirx said:


> Hmm, so not clear enough. Unable to understand the purpose of analogy, or the meaning of the term "strawman". I'm afraid I don't want to spend the effort to stoop down to communicate at your level then.


Stop calling people birds!


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> People have tried. He's friends with several strava employees.


If you care about it that much, do your own CIRC-like report on how Strava is corrupt from the top down. I look forward to not reading it.


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## Local Hero (Jul 8, 2010)

deviousalex said:


> If you care about it that much, do your own CIRC-like report on how Strava is corrupt from the top down. I look forward to not reading it.


Who says I "care about it that much"? 

You trolling?


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

Local Hero said:


> You trolling?


Yes. [more characters here to hit the 5 char min ]


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## xeon (Dec 21, 2008)

pedalbiker said:


> Yep. As I said earlier, I flagged some of Tom Danielson's rides. Ironically enough, the title of one of his KOM attempts in Spain is something to the effect that he took this KOM from Joe D (?) without motorpacing.
> 
> I flagged it for chemical cheating but it was overturned. B.S.


I know Joe D, he's currently employed as a professional bike racer, won a US Tour last year, he also owns some of the local KOMs legitimately. He's a great bike rider and flies up hills. That said, Joe D does motorpace and doesn't necessarily set them to private. It might have been a jab back at him for motorpacing a KOM. It looks like a recent ride he did here in the States did get flagged almost immediately and the 80 miles of road and KOMs he gobbled up went back to the owners. 

I found this thread (Google search on motorpacing/Strava) because another local guy has a few KOMs that just look off to me. I know him and have ridden with him a few times.. so the fact he had a KOM is just a red flag to begin with. 

This guys handful of KOMs are just off... 33-35mph averages? I looked up one of his rides where he took a few KOMs and he even titled it "motorpacing". I was tempted to flag it but wanted to see what the consensus is with the etiquette of it. I'd be the successor on the segments, so I'm going to just let them be. 

Real life is still real life.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Flag'em, those bas.... . And I don't care, but I care. Flag'em!
When you state you care, or don't care, please post a number in (*) on a scale of 1 to 10 and I think that will reduce the bs posts by at least a third.

And I care (3). See, it's not so tough.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

I say you flag them.

What's the worst that will happen? The dude unflags them and that's the end of that.

Otherwise, he'll leave the flag and you get your KOM's back.


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## aclinjury (Sep 12, 2011)

LOL fighting for Strava KOMs. Pretty fkin' pathetic. Mom must be proud now


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

xeon said:


> I know Joe D, he's currently employed as a professional bike racer, won a US Tour last year, he also owns some of the local KOMs legitimately. He's a great bike rider and flies up hills. That said, Joe D does motorpace and doesn't necessarily set them to private. It might have been a jab back at him for motorpacing a KOM. It looks like a recent ride he did here in the States did get flagged almost immediately and the 80 miles of road and KOMs he gobbled up went back to the owners.
> 
> I found this thread (Google search on motorpacing/Strava) because another local guy has a few KOMs that just look off to me. I know him and have ridden with him a few times.. so the fact he had a KOM is just a red flag to begin with.
> 
> ...


There's a guy in this area that gets KOMs by "virtual motorpacing". He lines up 7-8 decent strong friends has them ride as hard as they can to keep the speed at waht he could do via motorpacing. Unlike a typical group ride they pull off like they are about to leadout Marcel Kittel then he sprints right before the segment ends.

What's the difference between this and motorpacing? It seems the same to me. Do I care about either? Nope.


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## jetdog9 (Jul 12, 2007)

The friends agree to do this for him? Ha.

I think as long as it's all on bikes it's kosher, I mean if you happen to be in a paceline or peloton when you pass through a segment, too bad for those who usually ride solo. But at the same time, that's just another reason that obsessing over overall KOMs is stupid. Better to just think about yourself, or your own Strava group if you're in one.

Also, maybe it's not fair to those who aren't built for it, but it makes more sense to obsess over climbing segments if you're going to do it for anything at all. Flat segments and can have more major impact from group riding, bike type, and even tailwinds.

Ugh. Can't believe I'm contributing to this thread, though. Strava isn't stupid, it's great. Owning a KOM is great, but obsessing over them isn't. Unfortunately you can't apply common sense to the entirety of Strava, but groups and following people allow you to control the set of people you compare yourself to to some degree.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

jetdog9 said:


> The friends agree to do this for him? Ha.


The kicker is the people who help him later praise his strength on the mailing list he sets this up on.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

aclinjury said:


> LOL fighting for Strava KOMs. Pretty fkin' pathetic. Mom must be proud now


Well, hey, as long as you told your opinion to absolutely no one that cares!


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> What's the difference between this and motorpacing? It seems the same to me. Do I care about either? Nope.



Human powered versus machine is a pretty significant difference. 

Some KOMs are set in races and group rides. It is what it is.T

That's a bit different than sitting behind a moto or a car. I think taking koms by virtue of motorpacing is done in bad taste, but typically people doing that are doing a workout and not simply sniping for the sake of sniping (different than flat out jumping behind a car for a segment).


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

aclinjury said:


> LOL fighting for Strava KOMs. Pretty fkin' pathetic. Mom must be proud now


there is a few guys in my area that do just that... even name their rides things like "KOM hunting"...


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

aclinjury said:


> LOL fighting for Strava KOMs. Pretty fkin' pathetic. Mom must be proud now


Not nearly as pathetic as not posting a link to the famous 180 degree turn you caused an accident on.


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## deviousalex (Aug 18, 2010)

pedalbiker said:


> but typically people doing that are doing a workout and not simply sniping for the sake of sniping


This guy was definitely sniping for the sake of sniping. He would post links to the segments on the mailing list I'm on to rally up volunteers to lead him out for it.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

deviousalex said:


> This guy was definitely sniping for the sake of sniping. He would post links to the segments on the mailing list I'm on to rally up volunteers to lead him out for it.


I'm talking about motorpacing. 

I don't really have a problem with sprint trains, although I'd definitely be looking for big tailwind days to retake from someone that did that because it'd be hilarious..


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## Terrasmak (Jan 8, 2015)

So, was out on the mountain bike today and my friends decided to shuttle an uphil section. Well the road we drove is a common road route, I'm now the KOM by like 6 minutes. I hope it gets flagged quickly 

I keep my cell in my camel pack when I ride, it was running the whole time.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> I'm talking about motorpacing.
> 
> I don't really have a problem with sprint trains, although I'd definitely be looking for big tailwind days to retake from someone that did that because it'd be hilarious..


I honestly don't see the difference between sprint trains and motorpacing. Neither are a solo effort.


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## Oldbikah (Apr 16, 2015)

Terrasmak said:


> So, was out on the mountain bike today and my friends decided to shuttle an uphil section. Well the road we drove is a common road route, I'm now the KOM by like 6 minutes. I hope it gets flagged quickly
> 
> I keep my cell in my camel pack when I ride, it was running the whole time.


You can probably edit that out on Strava online.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

Terrasmak said:


> So, was out on the mountain bike today and my friends decided to shuttle an uphil section. Well the road we drove is a common road route, I'm now the KOM by like 6 minutes. I hope it gets flagged quickly
> 
> I keep my cell in my camel pack when I ride, it was running the whole time.


I'm pretty sure if you mark the ride "Private" you'll still have credit for your ride/miles/hours, but the segments won't be counted.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> I honestly don't see the difference between sprint trains and motorpacing. Neither are a solo effort.



I'm pretty sure there are no rules (nor should there be) about strava segments being 'solo' efforts.

People ride in races, training rides, group rides, etc... None of this should disqualify you from a segment time.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

Terrasmak said:


> So, was out on the mountain bike today and my friends decided to shuttle an uphil section. Well the road we drove is a common road route, I'm now the KOM by like 6 minutes. I hope it gets flagged quickly
> 
> I keep my cell in my camel pack when I ride, it was running the whole time.


That's what I'm talking about!


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## weltyed (Feb 6, 2004)

if youre that wrapped up in strava KOM, something is wrong with your base personality. could be insecurity, could be just a general dickishness.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

weltyed said:


> if youre that wrapped up in strava KOM, something is wrong with your base personality. could be insecurity, could be just a general dickishness.


Yea, and some MBikers are rather... ah.... too!


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

Migen21 said:


> I'm pretty sure there are no rules (nor should there be) about strava segments being 'solo' efforts.
> 
> People ride in races, training rides, group rides, etc... None of this should disqualify you from a segment time.


And then why should motorpacing? You are still having to pedal the bike. Motorpacing is some the hardest riding I have ever done - like HR max, max watts, drift out of the draft at all and your either dropped or scrambling to get back in and the motor never lets up. Seems like that should count too the fantasy world of strava KOMs.


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## Z'mer (Oct 28, 2013)

Terrasmak said:


> So, was out on the mountain bike today and my friends decided to shuttle an uphil section. Well the road we drove is a common road route, I'm now the KOM by like 6 minutes. I hope it gets flagged quickly
> 
> I keep my cell in my camel pack when I ride, it was running the whole time.


People near me are pretty laid back on the whole KOM thing. There's a 1.5 mile segment I ride a lot, and for almost 3 years the KOM for it was a mountain bike guy who did the same thing. There's a MTB trail/parking lot in the middle of the segment, and he left his GPS on for the ride home. His top speed was like 50 MPH. 
The guy in #2 place never flagged it, likely didn't care. 
I finally DID flag it, just for grins, to give him the rightful KOM. I was in like, 4th or 5th place so moved up a notch. That segment has 90 people ranked, so it's not like it was never ridden either.


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## spdntrxi (Jul 25, 2013)

I've flagged a few rides.. Obvious vehicle stuff or really bad gps readings .. Atleast one of the KOMs I have got flagged for being dangerous.. But I didn't create the segment so .. I can't change the start point in a intersection


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

I keep my KOM's hidden. The location is a secret. I have one, and those guys don't!


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> I honestly don't see the difference between sprint trains and motorpacing. Neither are a solo effort.


One has an engine and one doesn't. I won't bother to explain the difference between a machine and a human.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

weltyed said:


> if youre that wrapped up in strava KOM, something is wrong with your base personality. could be insecurity, could be just a general dickishness.


Substitute "strava KOM" with anything that people may like or care about. 

That's a good way to illustrate how utterly dumb your comment is.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> And then why should motorpacing? You are still having to pedal the bike. Motorpacing is some the hardest riding I have ever done - like HR max, max watts, drift out of the draft at all and your either dropped or scrambling to get back in and the motor never lets up. Seems like that should count too the fantasy world of strava KOMs.


Because, _​motor. _Sort of a key word, there.


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## Migen21 (Oct 28, 2014)

It's Strava's system. They make the rules. The rules say 'no motors'. The rules don't say 'you can't ride with your friends'.


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## arai_speed (Aug 19, 2003)

Migen21 said:


> It's Strava's system. They make the rules. The rules say 'no motors'. The rules don't say 'you can't ride with your friends'.


That is true. I ride with my friends all the time and get PRs because of that. I also ride in fast group rides with strangers and get PRs that way too. If those PR's turned to KOMs I wouldn't feel like I was cheating, if others do, well that's their problem.

I don't get mad when the Tour of California rides through my local hills and the riders takes all the Strava crowns.


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## BigTex91 (Nov 5, 2013)

Here's the ultimate in Strava stupidity that I've found: A guy who lives in a town 30 miles away downloads one of my rides, runs it through digital EPO and uploads it as his own. I knew it was my ride by where it started - where I always start and stop my Garmin, and where no one else would. The heart rate data was identical, just everything was 30 percent faster. 

Why would anyone steal a ride from someone else, on trails they've never ridden, just to take some KOM's? I mean, the guy had like one other ride, ever, on Strava. I called him out by commenting on "his" ride, and he deleted it. The annoying thing is it still shows him as having the KOM on several segments that he's never seen, even though he deleted the ride. 

I'm not chasing KOMs (I've had two, ever, and neither lasted very long), although I do sometimes specifically try to better my time on a particular segment. If I get into the top 10, I'm pretty happy. But I can't imagine what satisfaction someone could get out of having KOMs on trails they've never ridden.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

There's a segment that is at the very end of a long climb I do regularly, and the other day I rode the long climb at a very easy pace, then sprinted the finish segment. It put me in the top 10 for the segment, even though normally this is a pass-through segment as part of the longer effort. I felt kind of weird about it, like it was cheating, and I wouldn't want to get the KOM. So, I guess I do feel it is kind of lame to "cheat" a segment like that. I also don't understand the point of downhill segments though.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

weltyed said:


> if youre that wrapped up in strava KOM, something is wrong with your base personality. could be insecurity, could be just a general dickishness.


I never knew how seriously people took something as casual as Strava until this thread.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

gegarrenton said:


> I never knew how seriously people took something as casual as Strava until this thread.


See pedalbiker's response. There are a lot of things I wonder why people take so seriously. I guess to some, this is a big deal, I'm sure there are people out there who think you are weird for some of the things you take seriously...I'm not trying to insult, but everyone has a different outlook on what matters and what doesn't.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

aruyt said:


> See pedalbiker's response. There are a lot of things I wonder why people take so seriously. I guess to some, this is a big deal, I'm sure there are people out there who think you are weird for some of the things you take seriously...I'm not trying to insult, but everyone has a different outlook on what matters and what doesn't.


My response was serious. I seriously have never heard such vociferous arguing over Strava.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

I created a segment on a route I often ride, a closed loop about 2.5 miles long. I use it as a barometer of my fitness and because it's just about the length of effort you need to establish a break. I enjoyed having the kom on it because I can use the live segments feature to track myself during each effort. 

I assumed I was the only one on the planet who gave a **** about it til I noticed an acquaintance has started trying to poach the kom. Next thing, there will be a pack of hard cases killing it on that little loop. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tlg (May 11, 2011)

Fireform said:


> I created a segment on a route I often ride, a closed loop about 2.5 miles long. I use it as a barometer of my fitness and because it's just about the length of effort you need to establish a break. I enjoyed having the kom on it because I can use the live segments feature to track myself during each effort.
> 
> I assumed I was the only one on the planet who gave a **** about it til I noticed an acquaintance has started trying to poach the kom. Next thing, there will be a pack of hard cases killing it on that little loop.


I know someone like that. 
My house is at the bottom of a hill. Each perpendicular street goes up the hill. So I made each one a segment which makes for great hill repeats without doing the same hill over and over. I had all the KOM's, not that I tried for them. They're side streets that no one really rides on. There's less than a dozen riders on the list. 

So this guy I know goes out and targets them and brags to me afterwards. He only got one though. Which I took back a few days later just to rub his nose in it.

He's the type of guy that plans out a ride based on the KOM's in the area and loads them into his Garmin. He'll noodle around at 14-15mph then hammer all the segments.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

gegarrenton said:


> My response was serious. I seriously have never heard such vociferous arguing over Strava.


I didn't suggest it wasn't serious. I'm just pointing out that for some, it is a big deal. There are people who have DIED trying to get downhill Strava segment times. That is insanity to me, but to some people, being #1 in something is a big deal to them. There are also dopers who use Strava, and I wonder how much of their doping is actually from wanting to be a Strava "badass"?! I don't have any Strava KOM's, and I don't care at all. I use Strava because it is way better than any crappy Garmin analysis tool for tracking and analyzing my rides, though I will admit I like to see how I stack up against others on certain rides (mainly climbing segments).

But then again, there are people who collect doll clothes and other stuff I find extremely weird, and a waste of money, but to them, it's serious business!


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

gegarrenton said:


> I never knew how seriously people took something as casual as Strava until this thread.


Strava is a chance for people who think they're fast to show that off without having to face the ignominy of getting destroyed in a real race. 

And then there are people like me who actually race quite successfully and like Strava for the competition of "racing" all of those people who can't race you in real life. Plus KOM hunting is much more enjoyable than going out and doing vo2 max repeats or some other archaic, head-banging workout. 

Plus it's fun when a bunch of racers start hunting the same KOM and besting it repeatedly. 

Basically, there are a myriad of reasons. Being ignorant of those and feigning disbelief over why someone would care about something (or anything) is silly and stupid.


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

Fireform said:


> I created a segment on a route I often ride, a closed loop about 2.5 miles long. I use it as a barometer of my fitness and because it's just about the length of effort you need to establish a break. I enjoyed having the kom on it because I can use the live segments feature to track myself during each effort.
> 
> I assumed I was the only one on the planet who gave a **** about it til I noticed an acquaintance has started trying to poach the kom. Next thing, there will be a pack of hard cases killing it on that little loop.
> 
> ...


Real simple just make it private.
If dudes really didn't care then they wouldn't comment on threads like this.
The reality is many on Strava do care and are competitive, hence them logging rides on Strava.


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

After 4 or so years of people tackling the segments around here the times are competitive enough that you need a tailwind to set a new KOM on a shorter segment (it gets really windy on Maui) or a fast group for the longer segments that curve around the island. Last week the wind was blowing light out of the south in the morning so I went out just to beat my old KOM on a 5 mile rolling segment that goes almost straight north. That afternoon the wind clocked around to a hard north so I went out just to beat my KOM going the other direction on the same road. Like surfing or kiting, KOM killing requires working with the conditions on Maui

Here's an etiquette question: A woman taking QOMs while drafting dudes? Seems kinda like motorpacing but it happens all the time intentionally or not either cuz she's on a group ride with guys or just with her boyfriend. My current girlfriend has racked up most of the segments around here while riding my wheel. What's funny is when she takes a QOM from an ex-girlfriend of mine (who set it while drafting me) so I know the ex got an email showing that there's a new girl riding with me. Ah, the twisted social web living on a small island....


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## Lelandjt (Sep 11, 2008)

pedalbiker said:


> Strava is a chance for people who think they're fast to show that off without having to face the ignominy of getting destroyed in a real race.


It's also an opportunity to race when real races don't exist. Maui only has 3 races a year now and a small group of riders. Strava gives them a chance to "race" each other more often and on more routes and since so many good riders from Canada, US, and Europe come here to train in the winter it's an opportunity to see how we compare to them. Breckenridge, CO is so over-run with XC races that they can't get a permit for an enduro race so riders use Strava to see who's the best on all our epic big mountain descents.

You can't take Strava too seriously cuz in MTB the inaccuracy of devices (especially with tree cover) affects results too much when winning margins are a second or two and on the road tailwinds and group riding create an uneven playing field, but clearly it's better than nothing or it wouldn't be so popular.

P.S. Long before Strava I had "segments" that I'd time and keep written records of. I like "racing" against myself.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

Lelandjt said:


> Here's an etiquette question: A woman taking QOMs while drafting dudes? Seems kinda like motorpacing but it happens all the time intentionally or not either cuz she's on a group ride with guys or just with her boyfriend.


Again, riding with other people riding a bike is _nothing _like motorpacing because there is _no_ motor.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> Because, _​motor. _Sort of a key word, there.


If the motor was on the bike it would make sense but since most if not all of the local KOMs are ruled by group rides it doesn't.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> Again, riding with other people riding a bike is _nothing _like motorpacing because there is _no_ motor.


Nope motorpacing is way harder.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

This seems to fit to this thread. In that is discusses how strava is replacing racing.

USA Cycling president Bouchard-Hall fighting to keep racing relevant | Cyclingnews.com


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

pedalbiker said:


> Strava is a chance for people who think they're fast to show that off without having to face the ignominy of getting destroyed in a real race.
> 
> And then there are people like me who actually race quite successfully and like Strava for the competition of "racing" all of those people who can't race you in real life. Plus KOM hunting is much more enjoyable than going out and doing vo2 max repeats or some other archaic, head-banging workout.
> 
> ...


You seem to be making a myriad of assumptions.


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## Marc (Jan 23, 2005)

32and3cross said:


> This seems to fit to this thread. In that is discusses how strava is replacing racing.
> 
> USA Cycling president Bouchard-Hall fighting to keep racing relevant | Cyclingnews.com


Yea...no. Maybe it has something to do with:

A) Rider safety when training and racing? US roads are death traps of negligent cellphone zombies. You cannot race if you can't train (safely). Odds are if you're a rookie you're going to crash and hurt yourself and your bike, in an expensive pile-up jumble of bikes and people.

B) Licensing cost. Odds are you're going to spend $40 to race, and get dropped in the 1st 10 minutes. Aside from saying "I raced", what is the point? And because of A you also have a $300USD bill waiting to fix your taco'd wheel as well as medical costs.

C) Equipment cost. When A happens, things are stupid expensive to replace or fix. The bicycling industry is working hard to price itself outside the earnings of everyone but managers and CEOs.


USAC not pulling in new blood has less to do with Strava and more to do with the USA and the USAC. Strava is just an easy scapegoat.


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## BikeLayne (Apr 4, 2014)

It's just a computer program but I do enjoy Strava. Most of the KOM's are held by 3 or 4 guys that are faster then the rest of us. They do not cheat or anything as they are just light and fast. That's the way of it. When I ride out of town I do not know where segments start or stop at anyway and just ignore them. 

Anyway I do enjoy being able to track my rides, total miles, elevation and all that. It's another fun component to cycling.


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## gegarrenton (Jul 10, 2009)

BikeLayne said:


> It's just a computer program but I do enjoy Strava. Most of the KOM's are held by 3 or 4 guys that are faster then the rest of us. They do not cheat or anything as they are just light and fast. That's the way of it. When I ride out of town I do not know where segments start or stop at anyway and just ignore them.
> 
> Anyway I do enjoy being able to track my rides, total miles, elevation and all that. It's another fun component to cycling.


Quite agree.


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## aruyt (Jan 7, 2015)

There's also a very nice Chrome extension for Strava, called Stravistix, just Google it and you'll find it. It gives you way more data to analyze broken down much more than what Strava lets you see (for free). I've donated to the guy who programs it a few times now because I think it's so comprehensive. Esp if you have a power meter, the data you can extract and see broken down is extremely helpful to me.


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## Fireform (Dec 15, 2005)

aruyt said:


> There's also a very nice Chrome extension for Strava, called Stravistix, just Google it and you'll find it. It gives you way more data to analyze broken down much more than what Strava lets you see (for free). I've donated to the guy who programs it a few times now because I think it's so comprehensive. Esp if you have a power meter, the data you can extract and see broken down is extremely helpful to me.


This. And I got a very appreciative note back from him when I donated


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> If the motor was on the bike it would make sense but since most if not all of the local KOMs are ruled by group rides it doesn't.


That's nonsensical. 

A group ride has nothing to do with motorpacing. That you're missing this connection is worrying.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> Nope motorpacing is way harder.


I bet your race results say (would say?!) otherwise.


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

gegarrenton said:


> You seem to be making a myriad of assumptions.


Hurting for a rebuttal, there?


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## bwbishop (Sep 17, 2011)

respro100 said:


> So I've got a Garmin. I'm trying to climb up the Srava rankings on segments. One that I try for is a 2 mile climb. It starts after about 12 miles in a group ride with some climbs before the segment. I'm slowly improving. But I find a video of guys pulling another guy to the start of the climb. He flys by at the start of the climb. Another thought. If I'm really determined I can just drive to the climb and start on fresh legs. I really don't think either method is wrong. Just wanted to know what the general consensus is. Forgive me if there's already a 25 page thread on this


There is only one award on Strava that means a damn thing and that's "PR" 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Aadub (May 30, 2015)

BikeLayne said:


> It's just a computer program but I do enjoy Strava. Most of the KOM's are held by 3 or 4 guys that are faster then the rest of us. They do not cheat or anything as they are just light and fast. That's the way of it. When I ride out of town I do not know where segments start or stop at anyway and just ignore them.
> 
> Anyway I do enjoy being able to track my rides, total miles, elevation and all that. It's another fun component to cycling.


Totally agree with your perspective.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> I bet your race results say (would say?!) otherwise.


My race results would say I have spent a decent amount of time behind a motor in the past.

As far as strava KOM's gotten on a group ride I don't see the difference between them and ones gotten motorpacing.


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## duriel (Oct 10, 2013)

32and3cross said:


> as far as strava kom's gotten on a group ride i don't see the difference between them and ones gotten motorpacing.


cheater


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## pedalbiker (Nov 23, 2014)

32and3cross said:


> My race results would say I have spent a decent amount of time behind a motor in the past.
> 
> As far as strava KOM's gotten on a group ride I don't see the difference between them and ones gotten motorpacing.


No, race results don't say a thing about motorpacing. But I'm curious to know how motorpacing could be so much harder than racing if you're not winning every race you enter. Solo. 

Yes, I know. You don't understand the difference between a motor and a human being. We've established that.


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## 32and3cross (Feb 28, 2005)

pedalbiker said:


> No, race results don't say a thing about motorpacing. But I'm curious to know how motorpacing could be so much harder than racing if you're not winning every race you enter. Solo.
> 
> Yes, I know. You don't understand the difference between a motor and a human being. We've established that.


Whatever.


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## Squrkey (Mar 24, 2012)

Thing about a rat race is, even if you win, you're still a rat.


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