# Carbon frame, taller head tube - Synapse vs 566 beginner's dilemma



## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

Hello,

I need some advice deciding on my first road bike. 

I'm an avid mountain biker and spend most of my free time riding. I have an Ibis Mojo and a Jamis Exile SS. I've done some racing and did ok in the beginner class (finished on the podium a few times, though right now I'm not as fit). I'm looking at getting a road bike for training and doing some century rides. I'm used to a more upright riding position and have light lower back issues (43-yrs old, desk job). I do most of my maintenance myself. 

I'm looking at carbon frames with a taller head tube. I have ridden a Specialized Roubaix, Trek Madone 5.2, BH Prisma, Giant Defy Advanced, Cannondale Synapse and a Look 566. I also briefly tried a Specialized Tarmac, BH G5 and a Litespeed Ti / unknown model and know that these won't work (or only with a lot of spacers and a huge rise in the stem). All of the bikes were equipped at roughly the Ultegra level.

The Roubaix was not "fun" enough to me. It was very comfortable but a bit "slow" for lack of a better term.

The Madone is very expensive (just like the Roubaix). It was pretty fun to ride. I felt a bit too stretched out on it, maybe with a proper fit (shorter stem, more rise) it would be more enjoyable. I like their Duotrap integration thing in the seatstay. I've read multiple reports of bottom bracket issues with Trek road frames though.

The BH Prisma felt great. It was fun right away. I needed a shorter (90mm) stem. BH dealers are rare in my area, most people have never heard of the brand.

The Giant Defy Advanced was nice, but also not that fun.

The Sysnapse was fun and felt great to ride.

The Look 566 felt slightly more responsive than the Synapse, and on the short ride I did it was tiny bit more fun due to its responsiveness.

I'm strongly leaning towards the Synapse Carbon 3 Ultegra or the Look 566 Ultegra right now. Their pricepoint seems right to me (can get either for about $2400). 

What I like better about the Look 566 when compared to the Synapse: Ultegra cranks (have had issues with Truvativ/SRAM non-drive-side bolts in the past, while Shimano's clamp system just works), standard round seatpost, those little cable holder posts on the head tube.

What I like better about the Synapse: The look (oddly), presumably better dealer-support / warranty. It was slightly more comfortable, though I think the main difference was the seat-bar drop was not as big on the Synapse, it had a good amount of spacers under the stem. I assume they can both be set up about the same.

Where I live there are a ton of Specialized bikes on the road (for good reason) and Trek a close second. Lots of Giants, also. Quite a few Cannondales and very few Looks. I've never seen a BH. It's not very important to me to have a more rare bike but somehow I feels wrong to pay the most $$$ for the most common bikes, and buying something off the beaten path for fewer $$$ suits me better.

Am I missing anything important? Do you have any experience with either of these bikes?

I've been trying to find out about the dropouts on the frames as some have full carbon dropouts and that seems like a bad idea to me. Maintenance on the parts seem to be easier on the Look (crank, standard seatpost, etc.). But if I have issues with the frame it seems riskier compared to Cannondale.

Also, if you think this would be better in another forum let me know. Thank you!


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

A friend of mine ripped the crank arm off the FSA crank on a bike I lent her a while ago. They have several different, mutually incompatible bottom brackets. They can't tell the difference between "it's" and "its" on their web site. I think they're morons. Although, they do make my favorite handlebars. I guess I just don't trust them with moving parts. 

And you're right, it has a funky seat post. I like standardization, where it's available and doesn't screw up something else that actually matters.

You should be aware that the 566's interpretation of "Ultegra" is a little loose. You get a Tiagra front derailleur and 105 shifters and brakes. At least, according to the Look web site, seems there's a few different versions of the spec floating around... The SRP's a whole lot lower too. However, it's a less common brand, so if that's a bonus for you, it's true of the Look, while Cannondales are definitely a common bike.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

IMO you're going about this in exactly the right way, test riding a lot of bikes and narrowing the field as you do so. From your post, I gather that you're pretty in tune with what you're looking for, and IMO it's a bike close to race geo, but with a taller head tube. 

Not to complicate issues for you, but because you're taking a seemingly thorough approach to this, I'll offer than you may want to take a look at the Cervelo RS (think I have the model right). I think you'll find that it possesses the qualities you're looking for. But just to clarify, I don't think you can go too far wrong with any of your finalists, assuming they all fit (or can be tweaked to fit) equally well.

As far as the price versus popularity quandary, that's the only place I'd question your criteria. First and foremost, I'd concern myself with finding the bike that I liked best. Not intending to be critical here, but begrudging myself that would be a little too close to biting my nose to spite my face, if that makes any sense.

Lastly, if it comes down to splitting hairs, since you're looking at full CF framesets, I'd suggest checking out the warranty terms of your finalists and next, picking the one you like best, aesthetically.


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

AndrwSwitch: The 566 is a 2011 model, I'm pretty sure all of the easily identifiable parts are Ultegra (6700). I'm not sure about the cassette and the chain though. I don't know if there even is a parts spec from Look. 

PJ352: Good point about the RS. I have tried one local dealer a while ago but they did not have one in my size at the time. I will check with them again. Regarding the brands, it just seems that the big brands are harder to get at a reasonable price. MSRP on all the bikes I've looked at is fairly high, but the "deals" on Trek & Specialized are something like $50 -$100 off, maybe $200. Agreed though on the biting my nose to spite my face thing. Would like to avoid that.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

xls said:


> AndrwSwitch: The 566 is a 2011 model, I'm pretty sure all of the easily identifiable parts are Ultegra (6700). I'm not sure about the cassette and the chain though. I don't know if there even is a parts spec from Look.
> 
> PJ352: Good point about the RS. I have tried one local dealer a while ago but they did not have one in my size at the time. I will check with them again. Regarding the brands, it just seems that the big brands are harder to get at a reasonable price. *MSRP on all the bikes I've looked at is fairly high, but the "deals" on Trek & Specialized are something like $50 -$100 off, maybe $200. * Agreed though on the biting my nose to spite my face thing. Would like to avoid that.


That generally holds true in my region as well. Some manufacturers have a minimum price dealers are allowed to sell for, I'm assuming excluding NOS, closeouts, sales events.... and the laws of supply and demand apply as well, so the more popular brands/ models will garner a higher price.

This is your money and your investment, so if it bothers you that's all that really matters. I have bikes a long time, so I tend to spread that initial investment over the years, so in your price range, differences of about 8% wouldn't sway me much if the bike I preferred was of (somewhat) higher cost.

One other consideration that I didn't mention initially are the LBS's. As we often say here, shop for shops along with shopping for bikes, so if you prefer one shop over another, that's a consideration. Long term, that might matter.

Lastly, JMO and not meant to sway you, but re: the cranksets, while I haven't heard nearly as many complaints re: C'dales BB30, as you noted earlier, there have been appreciable problems with the Madone and a few with Specialized. The latter seems to be related more to variances in installation (versus frame problems), but considering I've yet to read anything proving BB30 (and its various iterations) as being superior, I'm skeptical that this technology serves any real purpose beyond stimulating bike sales. As I say, this is JMO and not meant to deter you from any of the offerings. So take it with that proverbial grain of salt.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

I'll buy it that there's a real advantage in a press- or slip-fit standard with a larger bearing when it comes to carbon frames.

Plastic is somewhat soft and doesn't hold threads very well. But a big bearing pressed into an unthreaded enclosure and secured with the crank itself should be better, especially if the bearing seat is big enough to reinforce with the actual carbon fiber.

At least, that's my understanding of the motivation behind the whole slough of bottom bracket standards without the familiar threading.

BB30 seems to be gaining some industry acceptance. While I enjoy having a somewhat less common road frame myself, I really like having standard components. It makes sourcing maintenance parts very easy, and while both the 1" threaded headset and cartridge bottom bracket that I have at the moment are now previous-generation technology, they were so common that should I need to replace my fork, headset or bottom bracket, it'll be very easy.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I'll buy it that there's a real advantage in a press- or slip-fit standard with a larger bearing when it comes to carbon frames.
> 
> *Plastic is somewhat soft and doesn't hold threads very well. But a big bearing pressed into an unthreaded enclosure and secured with the crank itself should be better, especially if the bearing seat is big enough to reinforce with the actual carbon fiber.*
> 
> ...


Not to derail this thread or argue against your point, but to offer a counter, some press fits require delrin cups that press into the CF shell and hold the bearings, so there's still 'plastic', of sorts.
http://service.specialized.com/coll...-Tarmac-SL3-Road-Carbon-Instruction-Guide.pdf

Also, the phrase "should be better" probably isn't much consolation to Madone owners being told the 'slop' between bearings and CF shell isn't a defect and plastic shims will 'solve' the problem.

Again, not arguing, merely 'arguing' two points.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Actually, I don't think we're disagreeing. A layer of plastic (or delrin, a rubber gasket, whatever) in between the frame itself and a bearing is fine by me. It's the plastic surface of a carbon frame that I understood to have trouble with small, shallow features like threads.

It's comforting to know that some press fits have that extra component. I'd much rather ruin a delrin cup than an entire frame.

On a side note, my school just finished their race car for this year. It has a carbon fiber monocoque body, which provides the main structure of the car. I was impressed.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> It's comforting to know that some press fits have that extra component. I'd much rather ruin a delrin cup than an entire frame.


Speculation on my part, but since it's relatively new to Specialized, that might be the reason for such a design. Some believe that PF30 will be the emerging (real) standard. Time will tell.



AndrwSwitch said:


> On a side note, my school just finished their race car for this year. It has a carbon fiber monocoque body, which provides the main structure of the car. I was impressed.


Cool. Post pics (somewhere) if you can.


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## Peanya (Jun 12, 2008)

I'll second the RS or even the R3 if you can swing it. They look great, and even better, I hear a lot of great things about them from owners of them.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

Took a little clicking around, but I found some.










More here.
Meet the UW Formula Motorsports racecar - seattlepi.com

I wasn't on that team. I'm a grad. student, and it's almost exclusively an undergrad thing. Too bad, I think it would have been really cool to work on.


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## velocanman (Jul 15, 2011)

You are already on the right track by test riding a number of bikes, but I wanted to respond with a recommendation for the Scott CR1. It has a taller head tube than the Addict and runs a little on the short side. I am 6'-2" and ride an XXL/61 cm with a 59.5 cm ETT.

Scott reportedly updated the CR1 frame in 2010 for more vertical compliance in the rear triangle (based on online reviews). I ride a 2009 which retains the rear-end stiffness of the frames that put Scott on the map. I can't vouch for the newer models but the ~2005-2009 CR1 is a great frame.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

In deference to the OP, I don't want to stray too much here, but that is one impressive feat. Would be cool to attend a race. Thanks for posting.


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

AndrwSwitch, way to derail my thread! JK, of course. That is seriously impressive. And yeah, that would be cool to work on.

About the other sort of side-discussion about bottom brackets... I have two bikes with threaded external bearing cups, one a carbon frame the other steel. I've done maintenance on both myself (the SS needed a bunch of stuff replaced after a mud-fest 24h race) and it was no problem. With the BB30 I'd be a bit worried about wear on the carbon resin when pounding out old bearings and pressing in the new ones. I guess in theory one could also cross-thread a threaded external bearing cup and mess things up there also. But maybe I don't fully understand how it works. I'll be doing some more research on that topic.

PJ352: Regarding the pricing, I think somehow we're out of sync so I put what I've been looking at in a little table and added it below. I did not spend much time looking for better prices on Giant as I'm not all that interested in it. Hopefully what I said earlier makes a bit more sense or maybe I'm missing some significant difference between those bikes?

For the popular, less-discounted brands I liked the Madone 5.2 the best in terms of riding, looks and features. It's also the one I had for the longest time (demo/rental for a whole weekend). I'm wary of Trek's BB30 issues though. It also was a while ago so I should probably ride it again to see if I still like it. I took it on a 45 mile ride, maybe that was why I liked it. 

I'm planning on visiting the Cervelo dealer tomorrow if they have an RS in my size. Thank you velocanman for recommending the Scott CR-1.

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style='height:16px;'>.</td><td dir='ltr' rowspan=1 class='s4'>Cannondale Synapse 3<td rowspan=1 class='s5'>$3,550<td rowspan=1 class='s5'>$2,399<td rowspan=1 class='s6'>$1,151<td rowspan=1 class='s7'>32.42%</tr><tr dir='ltr'><td class=hd><p style='height:16px;'>.</td><td dir='ltr' rowspan=1 class='s4'>Look 566 Ultegra (2011)<td rowspan=1 class='s5'>$3,500<td rowspan=1 class='s5'>$2,399<td rowspan=1 class='s6'>$1,101<td rowspan=1 class='s7'>31.46%</tr></table></body></html>


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## tuccillo (Feb 22, 2010)

You won't be able to ride it beforehand unless you live in CA, but you might want to take a look at the Neuvation FC500. They do "build to order" so you can get exactly what you want in the components and they will swap stems, handlebars, and saddles. 



xls said:


> AndrwSwitch, way to derail my thread! JK, of course. That is seriously impressive. And yeah, that would be cool to work on.
> 
> About the other sort of side-discussion about bottom brackets... I have two bikes with threaded external bearing cups, one a carbon frame the other steel. I've done maintenance on both myself (the SS needed a bunch of stuff replaced after a mud-fest 24h race) and it was no problem. With the BB30 I'd be a bit worried about wear on the carbon resin when pounding out old bearings and pressing in the new ones. I guess in theory one could also cross-thread a threaded external bearing cup and mess things up there also. But maybe I don't fully understand how it works. I'll be doing some more research on that topic.
> 
> ...


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## jpaschal01 (Jul 20, 2011)

xls said:


> AndrwSwitch, way to derail my thread! JK, of course. That is seriously impressive. And yeah, that would be cool to work on.
> 
> About the other sort of side-discussion about bottom brackets... I have two bikes with threaded external bearing cups, one a carbon frame the other steel. I've done maintenance on both myself (the SS needed a bunch of stuff replaced after a mud-fest 24h race) and it was no problem. With the BB30 I'd be a bit worried about wear on the carbon resin when pounding out old bearings and pressing in the new ones. I guess in theory one could also cross-thread a threaded external bearing cup and mess things up there also. But maybe I don't fully understand how it works. I'll be doing some more research on that topic.
> 
> ...


I've been debating a new carbon bike along the same lines that your looking at (full carbon, ultegra group, etc.). I'm like you in that I would prefer to not have the same Specialized or Trek that everyone else has. I'm not so concerned with budget as I am with fit and feel of the bike. My list of bikes to try first are: Look 566, Wilier Gran Turismo, Pinarello ROKH, and probably a Cervelo RS. I've also debated a Cannondale just because I really dig the Liquigas blue and green graphics. The price you've been quoted on the 2011 Look is great. If it fits well and you really enjoy the ride, that is a steal. It even has a better group on it than the 2012 model.


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## Sixjours (Feb 24, 2012)

You should try the Jamis line of Carbon bikes

Specifaly the Xenith Elite @ 3200, ProD12 @4000, Race @2800

You might be surprised, great products.


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## tbsurf (Apr 15, 2010)

I love my 2010 Synapse 3. Still feels like a dream ride. The only problem I had was the seat post bracket broke - as was immediately replaced by my LBS. How did you find a Synapse 3 available at a 32% discount? I can 't believe you'd pass that up!


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

xls said:


> About the other sort of side-discussion about bottom brackets... I have two bikes with threaded external bearing cups, one a carbon frame the other steel. I've done maintenance on both myself (the SS needed a bunch of stuff replaced after a mud-fest 24h race) and it was no problem. *With the BB30 I'd be a bit worried about wear on the carbon resin when pounding out old bearings and pressing in the new ones.* I guess *in theory one could also cross-thread a threaded external bearing cup* and mess things up there also. But maybe I don't fully understand how it works. I'll be doing some more research on that topic.


The process isn't quite as violent as you depict. 

With press fit, the old bearings are tapped out and the new pressed in - similar to press fit headset assemblies. When delrin cups are used, the bearing assembly may just pull out, sans the need for tools. But yes, the amount of force required depends primarily on the type of assembly, bearing/ shell finish and tolerances.

Re: cross threading an external BB cup, if someone were to do that to the point of causing some real damage, prior to trashing the frame the threads could always be chased. But beyond that, since there are signs of that happening as the cup was threaded on, I'd question the wrenches abilities.



xls said:


> PJ352: Regarding the pricing,* I think somehow we're out of sync* so I put what I've been looking at in a little table and added it below. I did not spend much time looking for better prices on Giant as I'm not all that interested in it. Hopefully what I said earlier makes a bit more sense or maybe I'm missing some significant difference between those bikes?


Out of sync is a polite way of putting it. I think I may just be confused. 

Looking at the chart and considering what you've offered about the popularity of brands/ dollar value, I'd think the LOOK would be tops on your list. So considering the Madone's (well Treks) popularity, the very low discount and the BB30 problems, I'm surprised it hasn't been cut. But that's based solely on what I'd call 'logic' based criteria. Once the emotional aspects kick in, we all know our choices sometimes defy that 'logic'.

I think it may be a good idea to (again) test ride the bikes you're still interested in. If the Giant (and others) aren't of great interest, drop them from the list and maybe add the Cervelo RS and any others posters have suggested that pique your interest (and are available in your area).

I really think the adage "test ride, then decide" applies here.


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

If I was in your shoes and having a less common bike was one of my criteria (or even if it wasn't, looking at your spreadsheet) I'd buy the 566 and call it a day. Especially if as you say, the '11 is a complete Ultegra build. It sounds like of the bikes you test-rode, it was at least tied as a favorite.

You could always go back to the dealer with the LOOK and see if you can get them to set it up a little better for you, and try it against the Synapse again.


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

With all the info and suggestions I got from people responding to this thread I went and test rode a bunch more bikes, basically whatever I could find available in my size. Here's the list:

BMC RoadRacer - Very nice bike, loved the looks, it felt so solid but also maybe a bit harsh and I kind of fell between their sizes (51 was way small, their 54 was pretty stretched for me). The price is very high, plus zero flexibility from the dealer on components swapping, etc.

Raleigh Revenio Carbon 2.0 - What a nice looking frame! During my very short test ride the rear wheel made "ping, ping" noises when pushing it hard... It's probably a build /dealer mech problem and OK, I went to the dealer during the peak of their "Mega Sale" so they might not have gone over every bike with a fine comb. I don't know exactly why, maybe it was the wheels - but I was not too excited about the bike's ride.

Scott CR1 Elite - Whenever people ask me about buying bikes I usually tell them to steer clear of REI. I love REI and buy way too much stuff there. On some days I'm not wearing a single piece of clothing that is not from REI. But their cycling department is really not very useful. Unfortunately in my area there are two Scott dealers: REI and another big sporting goods department store. I went to REI fearing that I would really like the CR1 and would have to go against advice I've given to others. Test riding the bike with REI was a major pain: don't come after 6:15pm or it'll be too dark, don't be out longer than 15 minutes (there is not a single incline anywhere near my local REI), bla bla bla it really was a bit annoying. The headset on the bike was lose which I only noticed on the test ride when I was braking hard - not a great feeling, that speaks to the quality of their bike building. The bike itself was also not for me. Fit was excellent but the ride felt exactly the opposite of what I wanted / expected: Acceleration was not great and I really felt rough road surfaces in the seat and handlebars (I don't know what the tire pressure was, might have been very high).

Cervelo RS - Sigh. I think this might be the bike for me. It was immediately comfortable. Acceleration was excellent, it was very fun and turning felt very balanced to me. Riding over some rough pavement was no problem, I felt very little of it. As I was riding towards the hills I realized that I did not really want to go back to the dealer. (I finished the CR1 ride in less than the 15 minutes I was "allowed"). I also really like the looks of it (after I got my Ibis Mojo I realized how nice it is to have a good-looking bike...). It is not an Ultegra build, Cervelo only offers Sram Rival. I could not really find anything wrong with the Rival stuff but given a choice, I'd take Ultegra it just feels smoother and quieter. The dealer is pretty good, however no price breaks on anything whatsoever. Full retail on the bike ($2600) and full retail on any accessories. Most dealers offer something like 15% off on accessories you buy on the day you buy the bike. Needless to say, if I buy the bike there that is all I'm buying there. A different cassette (gearing), pedals, water bottle cages, etc. would all be bought somewhere else. 

I've read rumors about the Cervelo RS being discontinued / replaced. Would you worry about something like that? About the Rival stuff, I think I'll be totally fine with it. Since I'm going to replace the cassette anyway would going to Ultegra be a good idea, maybe quieter during shifts? I have no problem changing the chain at some point down the road if that's what it takes.

The RS did not have any derailleur tuning thingies anywhere, not in the cable and not at the cable stops on the down tube. Are they useful? Do people use them while riding to maybe adjust the front derailleur?

I'm looking at a picture posted by someone else who just bought one... dang what a nice bike!


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

Oops I forgot:

THANK YOU! 

to everyone who responded in my thread with suggestions for other bikes to try, insight on BB replacement procedures, pictures of carbon race cars built at colleges, etc.

And... this is my post # 10! :cornut:


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

Since I now have 10 posts.... when I said "derailleur tuning thingies" what I meant was the in-line barrel adjusters as show in the picture below:


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## AndrwSwitch (May 28, 2009)

xls said:


> I've read rumors about the Cervelo RS being discontinued / replaced. Would you worry about something like that? About the Rival stuff, I think I'll be totally fine with it. Since I'm going to replace the cassette anyway would going to Ultegra be a good idea, maybe quieter during shifts? I have no problem changing the chain at some point down the road if that's what it takes.
> 
> The RS did not have any derailleur tuning thingies anywhere, not in the cable and not at the cable stops on the down tube. Are they useful? Do people use them while riding to maybe adjust the front derailleur?


I wouldn't be particularly worried about them discontinuing it. They have three other bikes in the series. I don't imagine they produce in the kind of quantities to have that make a lot of sense. I'd also observe that the RS is the only bike they only offer as a complete bike, and it's the second least expensive, after their track frame.

I do think Ultegra cassettes are a bit quieter.

Not having barrel adjusters is, IMHO, totally stupid. Inline barrel adjusters are no biggie to install. Lucky for me, I got my Rival bike second hand and my friend had already installed them. But I'll definitely be keeping them whenever I recable that bike. I don't use things like that to trim the front derailleur the way I might with a friction shifter or Shimano's trim clicks. Actually, I don't know if I've had to mess with the one for the front derailleur. But I do sometimes tweak the rear derailleur during a ride. I find bikes always shift just a little differently with a rider. So it facilitates final adjustment to be able to do it while riding, and if I get gunk under the bottom bracket, sometimes I end up using slightly different tension. The front derailleur's usually not as sensitive on a double crank, like what you'd be getting.

Personally, I think the adjusters that fit on downtube shifter mounts are awesome. But I think that the bike industry has almost entirely moved on. Oh well.


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## tdietz87 (Apr 19, 2011)

I just finished reading the thread and it brought me back to last November when I was in your shoes. I only have a brief moment to write this so my post will be quick and to the point.

Don't pass up testing the Cervelo r3. Hopefully the shop has one for you to test out. I drove 2 hours to find a dealer with an r3 my size to test ride, and it was worth it. Check out this review: Cervelo R3 Road Bike Review | TriSports University

As far as the RS being discontinued, I wouldn't let that deter you from purchasing one, if it proves to be the bike you love.

Good Luck! (I managed to find my 2011 cervelo r3 at 25% off MSRP)


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

xls said:


> Cervelo RS - Sigh. I think this might be the bike for me. It was immediately comfortable. Acceleration was excellent, it was very fun and turning felt very balanced to me. Riding over some rough pavement was no problem, I felt very little of it. As I was riding towards the hills I realized that I did not really want to go back to the dealer. (I finished the CR1 ride in less than the 15 minutes I was "allowed"). I also really like the looks of it (after I got my Ibis Mojo I realized how nice it is to have a good-looking bike...). It is not an Ultegra build, Cervelo only offers Sram Rival. I could not really find anything wrong with the Rival stuff but given a choice, I'd take Ultegra it just feels smoother and quieter. The dealer is pretty good, however no price breaks on anything whatsoever. Full retail on the bike ($2600) and full retail on any accessories. Most dealers offer something like 15% off on accessories you buy on the day you buy the bike. Needless to say, if I buy the bike there that is all I'm buying there. A different cassette (gearing), pedals, water bottle cages, etc. would all be bought somewhere else.
> 
> I've read rumors about the Cervelo RS being discontinued / replaced. Would you worry about something like that? About the Rival stuff, I think I'll be totally fine with it. Since I'm going to replace the cassette anyway would going to Ultegra be a good idea, maybe quieter during shifts? I have no problem changing the chain at some point down the road if that's what it takes.
> 
> ...


Looks like the Cervelo RS is the new frontrunner. As far as it being discontinued, if it were a car I might hedge, but IMO owning a discontinued bike isn't going to matter much. 

IMO Shimano's upper end groups hold an edge in refinement to comparable SRAM groups, but I don't think replacing just the cassette is going to make much of a difference. I'm not arguing against doing so, just offering that you might want to temper your expectations. 

Re: the inline barrel adjusters, while they're certainly a convenience, in practice I seldom use them. One bike I built up I didn't bother with them, so the FD 'adjustment' meant loosening the anchor bolt, adjusting cable tension and re-tightening. Took a couple of times and stayed in tune after that. 

The RD was adjusted at the RD either during or after a ride. I've been working on my bikes for so long now that these things aren't big deals to me, but (as mentioned), they're certainly a convenience, so if it's important to you ask the LBS to install them.


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

Thank you AndrwSwitch, tdietz87and PJ352! 

Went to another Cervelo shop today (Dealer A), mostly to see if I would like it better than where I tested the RS (Dealer B). They had no RS left and can't order any either. But they had an R3! Long story short, I prefer the RS but in large parts due to price ($550 difference). RS: a bit more comfortable, absorbs harsh hits (eg. speedbump) a bit better, and I probably can start removing spacers under the stem sooner. R3: slightly faster steering, slightly stiffer in the BB area. I could not really tell much of a difference in terms of acceleration (I'm sure Cavendish could, though).

The unfortunate thing is that I much preferred Dealer A. They'd do everything for me at no extra charge (saddle change, bar tape change, Ultegra cassette, life-long tune-ups, re-fitting with stem changes) and they were just fun & nice people. Dealer B will do none of those things, an initial fitting - yes, but if anything needs to be changed during fitting I have to buy those parts. Both dealers want full retail on the bike. The R3 is a bit beyond my pre-set limit ($3k incl tax). I can afford it but did not want to spend that much, it is my first road bike after all. 

I think I'm homing in on the Cervelo RS. I'll shop around for a dealer now. Dealer B is not bad, they're very nice, the owner is a total bike nut and they are pretty highly regarded in the cycling community here. I've just had a better feeling at other shops (also some non-Cervelo) and would feel better giving them my money.


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## Camilo (Jun 23, 2007)

Felt Z are worth checking out. I have one and it feels every bit as high performance as my old Cannondale CAAD7, but more comfortable (I have a carbon frame).


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## theplumber (Apr 18, 2012)

Good thread. I was quoted 2450 otd for a synapse 4 but I want your quote you have on the 3 of 2499 I'm in so Cal, not to far could have it shipped for about 50. Is it OK to ask what shop quoted you. Thanks for your time. :blush2:


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## Rsqdiving (Feb 4, 2012)

Just my two cents, I went back and forth between Jamis and Cannondale road bikes. I rode both bikes at two different LBS and asked alot of questions. I am very new to road bikes, but have road MTB for 20 years, I still have my first Schwinn Impact Pro (1991)! I finally settled on the Cannondale Synapase Sram Apex. It was the best fit for my budget, plus the Apex works great on the hills around here. I spent over an over getting fit and learning the SRAM gears on the bike. The dealer suggested I get 5 to 10 rides on the bike before I switched from the regular pedals. After 10 rides I purchased new shoes and pedals. Amazing the difference on the ride, except for my left big toe was numb after the ride. LBS made a little adjustment and no more numb toe. I love the Cannondale Synapase and just put a set of Armidillos on the bike for a 200 mile ride over three days. The ride is a charity event. Just my 2 cents.


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

*Ahem...*

I officially crossed over to the "dark side".


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

I got a chance to ride both RS and R3 back to back and this time I could definitely tell a difference in terms of acceleration, it's not huge but it's there. I could not really detect a downside with the R3 (other than price). Worked out a deal with the shop and I happily pulled the trigger. Took it out on a little "shake-down" ride, minor tweaks to seat fore-aft, etc. What a machine! One thing is for sure: this bike will not hold me back. 
I'm going on an easy ride tomorrow and take some pictures. Ahhhhh!!

Honestly, I really thank everyone who responded with their comments. It has been incredibly helpful for me.

I also discovered something that I hadn't thought of before: Handlebar reach. For mountain bikes there is not a whole lot of difference (yes, width matters for reach and some other factors) but for road bikes it's not all in the stem and the horizontal top tube length. Drop bars can have different reach and also the hoods can be mounted in different locations on the bar. The RS and R3 come with different handlebars (reach is within 3mm according to the manufacturers website), but as they are set up the distance from the steerer tube to the hoods on the R3 is quite a bit lot longer. When comparing bikes for fit / comfort, maybe it's best to put the hands on the flat portion, right next to the stem.


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## PJ352 (Dec 5, 2007)

xls said:


> I got a chance to ride both RS and R3 back to back and this time I could definitely tell a difference in terms of acceleration, it's not huge but it's there. I could not really detect a downside with the R3 (other than price). Worked out a deal with the shop and I happily pulled the trigger. Took it out on a little "shake-down" ride, minor tweaks to seat fore-aft, etc. What a machine! One thing is for sure: this bike will not hold me back.
> I'm going on an easy ride tomorrow and take some pictures. Ahhhhh!!
> 
> Honestly, I really thank everyone who responded with their comments. It has been incredibly helpful for me.
> ...


Congrats on the new bike! I'll anxiously await pics from the 'dark side'. 

Re: your comment on bar reach, absolutely true. Bar shape, tilt, hood shape, placement all have an effect on reach - as does saddle to bar drop. But I think that placing ones hands next to the stem can mislead more than educate, resulting in a cyclist bypassing a bike that (with some minor tweaks) could fit very well. 

Since the focus here is only on one contact point, this is obviously an oversimplification of the sizing/ fit process, but taking it step by step, sizing comes first (which, done correctly gets close to meeting the riders ETT/ drop requirements), then once saddle adjustments are set, a moderate stem length is fitted, keeping in mind the angle/ spacer setup needed for correct saddle to bar drop. 'Tweaks' come next, and can include repositioning (and in some cases, replacement of) the bars and altering hood position. 

Drop bar bike offers many hand positions (which alter a riders reach/ drop), so my philosophy is that a bike should be set up in a way that the rider can comfortably utilize all positions. As saddle time builds, depending on riding style, most develop preferences (generally the hoods) so as fit evolves, tweaks should reflect those preferences. ATMO.


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## tdietz87 (Apr 19, 2011)

Awesome!! I was reading through the posts and then saw the "dark side" picture and a smile instantly grew across my face. The r3 is one hell of a bicycle, I wish you many happy miles!


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

First ride! No flats or any other issues.






Pictures:
1. My new bike!! At a short rest stop I took a guy commented "Your bike is beautiful!". I totally agree. What a nice comment to hear on the maiden voyage. 
2. Weightweenie bike. Bumped into a super nice guy who flew by everyone on the way up a longer climb. His bike with the "heavy" wheels in the picture weighs a tad over 8 lbs. At least that's what I recall he claims. It sure was light, just look at that saddle! Nylon and carbon bolts, lots of stuff trimmed / drilled out.
3. Lunch at the end of the ride, well-deserved.


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## xls (Nov 11, 2004)

I thought I'd post a quick update...

Short version: I absolutely love my new bike! I never thought I'd say this about a road bike, but it's just really, really fun to ride!

Gory details: 
+ I have a total of 207 miles on it (plus a couple of rides where I forgot my GPS, maybe another 30 miles).
+ I did a 100k at the Gran Fondo in Santa Rosa, the day before the start of the Tour Of California. 
+ I rode my first stretch of dirt road on it (missed my big-tired bikes there  ). 
+ Signed up for a metric century organized by a local cycling club and joined said club (Western Wheelers). I've done two rides with the club (super great group of people, if anyone in the area is interested). 
+ I bought a bunch of accessories and sincerely hope I'm more or less done (lights, frame-mounted pump, another set of tools, etc...). 
+ I now find myself constantly surfing the web for other centuries / gran fondos to ride and want to talk my wife into getting an R3 (well, really a road bike) instead of the mountain bike she's been shopping for for a while. 
+ I set myself a goal to do a century with 10k of climbing this year. 
+ I've had zero mechanical issues (knock on wood!). 
+ I've simulated a tube change in the garage with the tools and pump that I have on my bike.
+ I continue to be amazed by how powerful I feel (I'm not) when I get out of the saddle and get on it. It's like a drug and I'm hooked.


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